# When is HDPC-20 going to be released? (UPDATE: Product has been suspended)



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

I am planning on building a *H*ome *T*heater *PC* and would like to put the HDPC-20 into it (as part of it). I am thinking of doing this HTPC next month, but would like to wait until I can get an HDPC-20. Does anyone have any concrete, speculative, guessed at, Magic 8-Ball, or other information that may be _helpful_?


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Ummm ... Beta testing only started, so I'd guess .... after the beta period ends?


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)




----------



## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

I haven't seen any specific introduction dates.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

i say november 17th... 

(total guess btw )


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Well, Smiddy did lay out some contradictory ground rules, asking that responses be "helpful", including speculation and even consultations with the Magic 8-Ball. I'm afraid that won't amount to much ...


----------



## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Then there's this thread. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=125769&highlight=hdpc-20


----------



## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

smiddy said:


> I am planning on building a *H*ome *T*heater *PC* and would like to put the HDPC-20 into it (as part of it). I am thinking of doing this HTPC next month, but would like to wait until I can get an HDPC-20. Does anyone have any concrete, speculative, guessed at, Magic 8-Ball, or other information that may be _helpful_?


No concrete inforamtion, but from past experience, with Micrsoft, I woud guess from what I've heard about the hodge podge of equipment they are Beta testing, You are are looking at a minimum of 9 months and it may actually be closer to 18 months.

Bob


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Well, Drew2k, you are right...I didn't want to put any pressure on the good folks _really_ testing this beast and was hoping someone might know something outside of the NDA folks.

AirRocker, November doesn't work for me.

Does anyone know how long Microsoft's betas generally run? I can recall reading about Vista taking a couple of years in beta. Wouldn't this be different?

Do you think that when it is release that it will coincide with MRV? I suspect that there is a convergence to work with Media Center (pure speculation mind you) such that your local OTA can be sent to the DVR and vice versa...

Does anyone have a price point thought of (heard of)? I would imagine it would be less than or a HR21 DVR, say around $150-ish? But since MS is doing the software development it is likely going to have so software taxed on so perhaps about the same as a DVR, thoughts?


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

azarby said:


> No concrete inforamtion, but from past experience, with Micrsoft, I woud guess from what I've heard about the hodge podge of equipment they are Beta testing, You are are looking at a minimum of 9 months and it may actually be closer to 18 months.
> 
> Bob


Thanks, I kind of guess as much...(see above post).


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I think the only ones with any information are Microsoft Beta Testers and DIRECTV, and I doubt any of them will willingly share it. The software/hardware is in the very early stages of Beta Testing, so we're going to be in the dark for a while ...


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Yeah, I am hopeful that they have leverage a lot of the TV Tuner software and guide information (I think they already tapped into satellite guides). So it potentially will be very little beta testing. But as you say, we'll be in the dark for a bit...


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

From what little I've read, this is a major rework of some of MediaCenter's hooks and controls into "other things". This could be awhile.

So, I'd say no chance for a generally available hdcp-20 in the next month time-line you talk about. You very well could be on your second HTPC if you build one now. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Does anyone know how long Microsoft's betas generally run?


23 years and counting for Windows


----------



## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

deltafowler said:


> 23 years and counting for Windows


!rolling So true. :lol:


----------



## dherndon (Mar 31, 2008)

smiddy said:


> I am planning on building a *H*ome *T*heater *PC* and would like to put the HDPC-20 into it (as part of it). I am thinking of doing this HTPC next month, but would like to wait until I can get an HDPC-20. Does anyone have any concrete, speculative, guessed at, Magic 8-Ball, or other information that may be _helpful_?


I was told by DirecTV that by mid year, they will be talking more about it. It won't be released until LATE this year.

That was shared by a Cust. Serv. rep at DirecTV. I do know more, but would have to kill you all and i'd rather not. 

Dave.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

dherndon said:


> I was told by DirecTV that by mid year, they will be talking more about it. It won't be released until LATE this year.
> 
> That was shared by a Cust. Serv. rep at DirecTV. I do know more, but would have to kill you all and i'd rather not.
> 
> Dave.


Thanks man! I like my life...so I won't ask you anymore questions on it. 



Tom Robertson said:


> So, I'd say no chance for a generally available hdcp-20 in the next month time-line you talk about. You very well could be on your second HTPC if you build one now.


I am hoping to put the hooks in for it and get a bleeding edge system if it is a while away. I would rather not buy two HTPCs. I will be building this one myself with a decent (from what I know now) upgrade path.


----------



## dherndon (Mar 31, 2008)

smiddy said:


> Thanks man! I like my life...so I won't ask you anymore questions on it.
> 
> I am hoping to put the hooks in for it and get a bleeding edge system if it is a while away. I would rather not buy two HTPCs. I will be building this one myself with a decent (from what I know now) upgrade path.


Couple more 2 cents worth.

Most people I know are buying Quad core's with 4 Gigs (or more). 32 Bit Vista Premium or Ultimate of course. Evidently, both ATI and NVidia are going to be releasing nextgen cards soon, but NVidia is ahead now in h.264 chip level support (9600GT card seems to be the recommended card now).

Dave.


----------



## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

The next update to Vista MCE is required for this puppy to work - so you aren't just waiting on DirecTV, you're also waiting on a general public release of a major Vista update... and those don't happen in the dark.

In other words - build now without much consideration for the HDPC... MRV is probably closer than the HDPC.

Chris


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

dherndon said:


> ...with 4 Gigs (or more). 32 Bit Vista Premium or Ultimate of course...


More than 4gb is a waste on 32bit versions of Vista - it won't address it, you'd need Vista 64bit to handle more.

Smiddy:

It just so happens that I built a new machine over the weekend for my media center:

Athlon X2-5000+
2gb Ram
Gigabyte GA-M57SLI-S4 nForce 570 motherboard (nice board with digital audio out, many USBs, multiple firewires, gigabit NIC)
Visiontek Radeon HD 3450 video card
Vista Home Premium

One could make the argument that the video card is kind of low end, but when it comes to video cards for non-gaming applications (i.e. no 3D processing required), my experience leads me to believe that the only thing that really seems to count are the GPU clock speed - and maybe the memory speed. In any case, it's a cheap card with HDMI out, which was what I was after. The above manages to play some HD WMV files I have at 1080p over my network with no problems at all and a very nice picture. I'm anticipating that it should be able to handle the HDPC-20. If not, I'd think more memory (pop it up to 4gb) should clean up any issues. IMO, if this rig can't handle it, someone at D* and someone at MS isn't doing thier job...


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Drew2k said:


> Well, Smiddy did lay out some contradictory ground rules, asking that responses be "helpful", including speculation and even consultations with the Magic 8-Ball. I'm afraid that won't amount to much ...


Does anything DIRECTV or Micro$oft _ever_ leave beta any more? Sounds like D* may have done it right on the AM21, but they're not widely distributed, so its hard to tell.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JayB said:


> More than 4gb is a waste on 32bit versions of Vista - it won't address it, you'd need Vista 64bit to handle more.


A case could be made that 2GB is the practical minimum (Micro$oft recommends 1GB) and 4GB is comfortable for active multitasking.

As most of the processing looks to be handed off to devices provided along with the external HDPC-20, I doubt that much will be required of the host computer.


----------



## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

JayB said:


> IMO, if this rig can't handle it, someone at D* and someone at MS isn't doing thier job...


:rolling: U Funny.... 

Backroom conversation... (and yes, I actually did hear this exact conversation in my former life at M$ - now that was 10 years ago, but I highly doubt anything has changed)

Hardware manufacturer: "Well we really need to have a system that pushes people to the next version of hardware. If this update you are referring to runs fine on the existing platform, there is no incentive for people to upgrade and that hurts us, which in turn will hurt our support of your products."

Ballmer: "Oh don't worry. We understand the hardware manufacturing side of the business. While we will ensure our platform is efficient, it will be in the best interest of the consumer to upgrade their hardware as well - we will be certain of that."

Chris


----------



## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

BudShark said:


> Ballmer: "Oh don't worry. We understand the hardware manufacturing side of the business. While we will ensure our platform is efficient, it will be in the best interest of the consumer to upgrade their hardware as well - we will be certain of that."
> 
> Chris


Which is exactly why I am still running DOS on one of my computers (an 80286 with 640K of ram and a 20Meg drive). 

Carl


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027

http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html

This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


That Hauppage device is interesting - a bit pricey to bring it up to doing what an HDPC-20 will do, since you'd need 2 of them (and 2 HD sat recievers) to pull off recording 2 shows at once. You're into $500 there. Of course, we don't know what an HDPC-20 will cost us, so it might be a wash there. I'd also like to have seen an HDMI port on it (and thereby maybe getting HDCP). Now, the ability to easily take the files it makes to a Blu-Ray burner - that's pretty nifty.


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

smiddy said:


> I am planning on building a *H*ome *T*heater *PC* and would like to put the HDPC-20 into it (as part of it). I am thinking of doing this HTPC next month, but would like to wait until I can get an HDPC-20. Does anyone have any concrete, speculative, guessed at, Magic 8-Ball, or other information that may be _helpful_?


I too am planning to build a home theater PC for the HDPC-20, but I am suspicious that they are testing the new unit with the Vista Media Center upgrade code name Fiji. As Fiji testing has been underway for nearly a year but has not yet reached the state where it is in a public beta. The last time they did a major rework of the Media Center they didnt do a public beta, they just released it, so it is hard to tell what they are going to do.

I have read some speculation on a couple of sites (Paul Thurott) (Vista Team Blog) that the Media Center upgrade is targeted to be available before the holidays this year. You could see where this might make some sense but there seems to be a new attitude around the Microsoft development teams lately, a kind of it's ready when it's ready... and not before.

Who knows? It is Microsoft and it is frequently hard to figure what goes on in the belly of the great beast.

But like you, I eagerly await it and will time the building of the new PC to take advantage of the 2 events: the release of the new Media Center and the HDPC-20.


----------



## grump (Feb 6, 2008)

LarryFlowers said:


> But like you, I eagerly await it and will time the building of the new PC to take advantage of the 2 events: the release of the new Media Center and the HDPC-20.


Hey Larry,

Would you mind sorta going through how you plan on integrating the HDPC-20 into your setup, what it's bringing to the party that the HR21 or HR20 won't, and what "problems" you expect it to solve for you?

I'm curious because I've built 3 HTPCs over the years, including a MythTV box, a Sage box and a LinuxMCE box. Currently I have a Vista Ultimate computer connected via HDMI and Dolby Digital optical to my TV with a RF keyboard/trackpad combination. All of these have been clunky and frankly, other than the geek factor, not worth the time (to me) to get them set up and working. They've all needed extensive babysitting, the user interfaces have been at best awkward and at worst like trying to swim in a vat of molasses and none have let me do anything I couldn't do with other, more appliance like devices.

I like the idea of a HTPC, and I've wanted it to work but time after time the implementations have failed to deliver on the idea. What has worked well for me is a backend media server with loads of disk space running something like Tversity that can serve up content to any of the appliance devices in my home, be it my modded original Xboxes, my Xbox 360 or my HR20/21s. I'm asking you because you seem to be a big proponent of HTPCs, so maybe you can get my thinking unclouded.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

People might want to start thinking about Windows 7 and not Vista. While Vista isn't dead, Windows 7 is quickly becoming the main focus at Microsoft. There was to be a "minor" release/refresh of Vista, but that may not occur.
There still may be a Media Center update for Vista near the end of this year, but should that slip much it might just be pushed into Windows 7.

Windows 7 should be entering beta late this year or early in 2009.


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

Well, I for one certainly hope I see the HDPC-20 before the official Windows 7 release target of 2010!


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


I gotta say, this looks really promising. If this works properly, the HTPC crowd (including myself) will have no need for the HR20/21 series.

The only decision now is to run it to Media Center for Xbox 360 Extender support, or SageTV/MythTV for more features?


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

JayB said:


> That Hauppage device is interesting - a bit pricey to bring it up to doing what an HDPC-20 will do, since you'd need 2 of them (and 2 HD sat recievers) to pull off recording 2 shows at once. You're into $500 there. Of course, we don't know what an HDPC-20 will cost us, so it might be a wash there. I'd also like to have seen an HDMI port on it (and thereby maybe getting HDCP). Now, the ability to easily take the files it makes to a Blu-Ray burner - that's pretty nifty.


Putting an HDMI port in would really ramp up the legal exposure. Content providers loath the analog hole (component) but there's nothing they can currently do about it. They do have legal recourse, and use it vigorously, when HDMI/HDCP is concerned. I doubt Hauppage or DTV want to go down that road, even if the use of HDMI was technically legal on the devices.


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

grump said:


> Hey Larry,
> 
> Would you mind sorta going through how you plan on integrating the HDPC-20 into your setup, what it's bringing to the party that the HR21 or HR20 won't, and what "problems" you expect it to solve for you?
> 
> ...


Not sure yet til I see how it all comes together. Right now I have a Vista Ultimate PC connected via DVI to HDMI with separate audio. I frequently use the setup on my Samsung to watch movies from Netflix' on line service and even DVD's played through Media Center, but truth be told, it isn't particularly useful... yet.

Windows Media Center without a tuner is not real valuable, I can play music easier thru WMP11 or Zune and Pictures also... however... give me a DirecTV tuner that places the interface in WIndows Media Center, which is how I expect it to work and the story changes.

I like the idea of being in control of the amount storage space I have.. a media center PC could easily have multiple terrabyte drives for storing programming. I envision no less than 5 terrabytes of storage on the system i want to build.

Additionaly, the XBOX360's and the new LinkSys Media Center Extenders will allow the PC to deliver content anywhere in the house.

No real way to know for sure yet, but I expect with the new Vista Media Center coming, the HDPC-20 and motherboards designed specifically to take advantage of it... it could get interesting.


----------



## d0ug (Mar 22, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


Is the HDPC going to be an external device? I hope not. If i build an HTPC, i want everything in one box nice and neat, not a crapload of little boxes dongled to it for other functions. the external HD on my HR-20 is bad enough. I'm pretty close to poping its virgin void sticker to put the HD inside.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

d0ug said:


> Is the HDPC going to be an external device? I hope not. If i build an HTPC, i want everything in one box nice and neat, not a crapload of little boxes dongled to it for other functions. the external HD on my HR-20 is bad enough. I'm pretty close to poping its virgin void sticker to put the HD inside.


Yes it will be an external unit. Here is a link to discussion and pictures about it from CES......

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115136&highlight=CES


----------



## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


Well, first, this isn't the same type of device. You are going to be required to use a HD receiver on the Hauppage DVR device, plus if you want two tuners like the HDPC-20 has, you need to double everything, including two mirror fees paid to directv montly.

Also, the Hauppage DVR records a digitally transmitted signal which has been transformed to and back from an analog signal. - it's not sure if the HDPC-20 does the same, but I would hope it records a true digital stream from the satellite meaning higher quality!


----------



## d0ug (Mar 22, 2006)

BMoreRavens said:


> Yes it will be an external unit. Here is a link to discussion and pictures about it from CES......
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115136&highlight=CES


That sucks! I would rather a PCI/PCI-E card


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

d0ug said:


> BMoreRavens said:
> 
> 
> > Yes it will be an external unit. Here is a link to discussion and pictures about it from CES......
> ...


I gather that DIRECTV would have preferred a PCI card solution too, but it was not working reliably in the lab. Something to do with too many different RF situations inside the different cases. I guess by the time they built a PCI card that had enough RF shielding, it ended up being a case anyway (and taken more than one slot space?)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

AlbertZeroK said:


> Well, first, this isn't the same type of device. You are going to be required to use a HD receiver on the Hauppage DVR device, plus if you want two tuners like the HDPC-20 has, you need to double everything, including two mirror fees paid to directv montly.
> 
> Also, the Hauppage DVR records a digitally transmitted signal which has been transformed to and back from an analog signal. - it's not sure if the HDPC-20 does the same, but I would hope it records a true digital stream from the satellite meaning higher quality!


The HDPC20 can't directly record a true digital stream output, at least not an HD digital stream. That's the whole point of the HDCP restrictions and HDMI. I don't have any technical details but to maintain legal status DTV will have to use the same analog hole trick that Hauppage is using. Digital HD to analog to digital HD to component output.


----------



## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> The HDPC20 can't directly record a true digital stream output, at least not an HD digital stream. That's the whole point of the HDCP restrictions and HDMI. I don't have any technical details but to maintain legal status DTV will have to use the same analog hole trick that Hauppage is using. Digital HD to analog to digital HD to component output.


I'm sure Microsoft could find a method of legally merging the HDCP20 with a PC to form a single coherent HDCP complaint device - after all, isn't that what hr2x's are?

I would hope the HDPC20 is a fully digital recording device.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


You and I clearly see things very differently. HDPC20 has 2 satellite tuners built in, the hd_pvr has none.

The HDPC20 can forward two HD streams in digital to the HTPC. The hd_dvr can only forward one locally digitized copy of an analogue component stream.

And the analogue hole for component can disappear at anytime... The specs are there, the tests are being run, some timelines have been set. (For blue-ray devices.)



Bob Coxner said:


> Putting an HDMI port in would really ramp up the legal exposure. Content providers loath the analog hole (component) but there's nothing they can currently do about it. They do have legal recourse, and use it vigorously, when HDMI/HDCP is concerned. I doubt Hauppage or DTV want to go down that road, even if the use of HDMI was technically legal on the devices.


A truly compliant HDMI port would basically not add that much to the liability. The HDMI chip would take care of all that for hauppage. Just as it does for all HDMI output devices. Got secure HDCP handshake, you get a stream. Fail the handshake you might get a downrez stream or no stream.


Bob Coxner said:


> The HDPC20 can't directly record a true digital stream output, at least not an HD digital stream. That's the whole point of the HDCP restrictions and HDMI. I don't have any technical details but to maintain legal status DTV will have to use the same analog hole trick that Hauppage is using. Digital HD to analog to digital HD to component output.


What makes you say that? You are correct only in that the HDPC20 doesn't record anything. (Then again, neither does the hd_pvr). But the HDPC20 solution can and does record two full digital HD streams without any extra A/D or D/A conversions, if the host PC is beefy enough.

The whole reason for the HDPC20 delay is not that it can't be done, but making sure the DRM and digital protection is maintained all the way thru Windows. In other words, Microsoft has to beef up their end of things. We've seen many parts getting better, now for this last set of bits.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

AlbertZeroK said:


> I'm sure Microsoft could find a method of legally merging the HDCP20 with a PC to form a single coherent HDCP complaint device - after all, isn't that what hr2x's are?
> 
> I would hope the HDPC20 is a fully digital recording device.


It is/will be.

And AlbertZeroK, you've nailed the key hangup--ensuring the HDCP compliance all the way thru the system. Microsoft attempted one technology for expanding WMP, decided that wasn't going to work. (That happens.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bob Coxner (Dec 28, 2005)

I guess most opinions of these devices depends mostly on what you want for a final product. My main need is being able to archive HD material on DVD. There's no way the HDPC20 will help me do that. If your final need has nothing to do with archiving, but you want to MRV from an HTPC, then the HDPC20 is probably a much better route to go. It could be done with the Hauppage but it's correct that it would require a separate box for each channel you want to record.

The biggest problem I see with the HDPC20 is that its deployment is tied to Microsoft coming up with something that will satisfy the content providers. I don't see the providers being comfortable with much of anything that allows a pure HD file to be stored on a PC hard drive.


----------



## heaphus (Oct 30, 2006)

Bob Coxner said:


> The biggest problem I see with the HDPC20 is that its deployment is tied to Microsoft coming up with something that will satisfy the content providers. I don't see the providers being comfortable with much of anything that allows a pure HD file to be stored on a PC hard drive.


Apparently, the content providers are already comfortable with what Microsoft has come up with in Vista, as all of this is already being done with CableCard. Also, since it appears that the HDPC20 will be available to existing computers, unlike CableCard, it is clear that CableLabs is even more anal than the content providers.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I want to be able to take the two tuners from the HDPC and share them throughout my home on mediaextenders. While doing this I can also control the size of my recording space by adding more drives to my HTPC's array.
The question is will the media extenders have a method for talking with the HTPC/HDPC20 to control things like channel changes, record commands, etc.

Not having 6 DVRs spread out around my house will be a joy.


----------



## heaphus (Oct 30, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I want to be able to take the two tuners from the HDPC and share them throughout my home on mediaextenders. While doing this I can also control the size of my recording space by adding more drives to my HTPC's array.
> *The question is will the media extenders have a method for talking with the HTPC/HDPC20 to control things like channel changes, record commands, etc.*
> 
> Not having 6 DVRs spread out around my house will be a joy.


Media Center Extenders absolutely will/do have this ability, just like they do with the CableCard tuners.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Whoa, I have been traveling all day so I missed most of your posts today, so in an attempt to get the bulk, I am going to use one post (Mr. Shadow should be proud).



dherndon said:


> Couple more 2 cents worth.
> 
> Most people I know are buying Quad core's with 4 Gigs (or more). 32 Bit Vista Premium or Ultimate of course. Evidently, both ATI and NVidia are going to be releasing nextgen cards soon, but NVidia is ahead now in h.264 chip level support (9600GT card seems to be the recommended card now).
> 
> Dave.


I am considering 64-bit Ultimate, BTW. I didn't know this about the Video Cards, I was leaning towards the 1 GB nVidia cards (9800 GTS?) and an Intel top shelf desktop CPU.



BudShark said:


> The next update to Vista MCE is required for this puppy to work - so you aren't just waiting on DirecTV, you're also waiting on a general public release of a major Vista update... and those don't happen in the dark.
> 
> In other words - build now without much consideration for the HDPC... MRV is probably closer than the HDPC.
> 
> Chris


I just read something about this update and am intriged. I think MCE is slow and needs some tweaking to get speedier. Adding HDCP will slow things down too. I know everything these days is going software, but if they could do HDCP via hardware it may speed things up.



JayB said:


> More than 4gb is a waste on 32bit versions of Vista - it won't address it, you'd need Vista 64bit to handle more.
> 
> Smiddy:
> 
> ...


Yep, 2^32 is 4GB, with 2^64 (potentially; I think the best addressable hardwarewise is 2^48 BTW) I have bene considering 64-bit Ultimate, though I heard there are issues, so I am investigating that too. As for a Video Card, I was looking at a minimum DirectX 10 compatible, though as I note above, I am leaning towards the 1 GB cards, though they also have heat related issues (you can only put so much on one card ).



carl6 said:


> Which is exactly why I am still running DOS on one of my computers (an 80286 with 640K of ram and a 20Meg drive).
> 
> Carl


I still love DOS. I have IBM PC-DOS 3.3 discs and dual boot into it on occasion. I can get to all 4 GB of RAM too (ok, almost all 4 GB). I like running those old applications at blazing speeds.



Bob Coxner said:


> http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32027
> 
> http://www.hauppage.com/site/products/data_hd_pvr.html
> 
> This will do the same job (and more) as the HDPC20. It will ship on May 1st.


This looks interesting. I don't know if I would want this though...something to consider in the interim.



LarryFlowers said:


> I too am planning to build a home theater PC for the HDPC-20, but I am suspicious that they are testing the new unit with the Vista Media Center upgrade code name Fiji. As Fiji testing has been underway for nearly a year but has not yet reached the state where it is in a public beta. The last time they did a major rework of the Media Center they didnt do a public beta, they just released it, so it is hard to tell what they are going to do.
> 
> I have read some speculation on a couple of sites (Paul Thurott) (Vista Team Blog) that the Media Center upgrade is targeted to be available before the holidays this year. You could see where this might make some sense but there seems to be a new attitude around the Microsoft development teams lately, a kind of it's ready when it's ready... and not before.
> 
> ...


I'll have to checkout that site to gather more information. I am eager to know more about the next release of MCE.



grump said:


> Hey Larry,
> 
> Would you mind sorta going through how you plan on integrating the HDPC-20 into your setup, what it's bringing to the party that the HR21 or HR20 won't, and what "problems" you expect it to solve for you?
> 
> ...


I'm confuse, did you home build these or are these boxes put together by someone else (sorry, I've never heard of them)?

I had been leaning towards a home media server for a while, where I toss the media to my HR's or some other device (leaning towards PS/3). Which I may still do with a HTPC.



LarryFlowers said:


> Not sure yet til I see how it all comes together. Right now I have a Vista Ultimate PC connected via DVI to HDMI with separate audio. I frequently use the setup on my Samsung to watch movies from Netflix' on line service and even DVD's played through Media Center, but truth be told, it isn't particularly useful... yet.
> 
> Windows Media Center without a tuner is not real valuable, I can play music easier thru WMP11 or Zune and Pictures also... however... give me a DirecTV tuner that places the interface in WIndows Media Center, which is how I expect it to work and the story changes.
> 
> ...


I agree, things are pretty clunky right now that an individual device gets teh job done a lot better.



Tom Robertson said:


> I gather that DIRECTV would have preferred a PCI card solution too, but it was not working reliably in the lab. Something to do with too many different RF situations inside the different cases. I guess by the time they built a PCI card that had enough RF shielding, it ended up being a case anyway (and taken more than one slot space?)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Having dealt with mixing RF and digital signals on a few projects now it is very difficult to intergrate the two in a small area, without a lot of microwave channeling and lots of shielding. They could taake a page out of nVidia's book, their latest GPU is huge. But for a HTPC (small footprint) it would take a lot of space up.



Tom Robertson said:


> You and I clearly see things very differently. HDPC20 has 2 satellite tuners built in, the hd_pvr has none.
> 
> The HDPC20 can forward two HD streams in digital to the HTPC. The hd_dvr can only forward one locally digitized copy of an analogue component stream.
> 
> ...


Asus has a couple of motherboards with HDMI on them. I have yet to see a review on them. There are a couple of others. I don't like the specs though...I would like to see another way to integrate HDMI on the motherboards without forcing the video solution, but use a seperate card. I have yet to see this type of solution. 

Sorry, this is long I know. But it cuts me answering each one individually.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Concerning the Hauppage HD PVR versus the HDPC-20, the Hauppage does have two advantages:

1) It won't lock you into Windows Media Center. MythTV and SageTV are far more powerful, and they will likely support the Hauppage device. MytTV in the LinuxMCE distrobution in particular, makes Windows Home and Windows Media Center look like a joke. With HD support, MythTV is finally a reality for me.
2) Its here. Now. (well, May 1st)


----------



## SSpectre (Feb 23, 2008)

dherndon said:


> Couple more 2 cents worth.
> 
> Most people I know are buying Quad core's with 4 Gigs (or more). 32 Bit Vista Premium or Ultimate of course. Evidently, both ATI and NVidia are going to be releasing nextgen cards soon, but NVidia is ahead now in h.264 chip level support (9600GT card seems to be the recommended card now).
> 
> Dave.


If they're getting more than 4GB of RAM, then they should be using 64-bit Vista. 32-bit can't use more than 4GB (and in reality I think the limit is a bit less than 4GB).

Edit... yeah I should read the whole thread first...


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

morphy said:


> Concerning the Hauppage HD PVR versus the HDPC-20, the Hauppage does have two advantages:
> 
> 1) It won't lock you into Windows Media Center. MythTV and SageTV are far more powerful, and they will likely support the Hauppage device. MytTV in the LinuxMCE distrobution in particular, makes Windows Home and Windows Media Center look like a joke. With HD support, MythTV is finally a reality for me.
> 2) Its here. Now. (well, May 1st)


Hi, can you give me some specific technical information on MythTV and SageTV and perhaps a link. Sorry, saying something is a joke is not very helpful in making a decision since it doesn't have any substance to a trade study. Especially if I like humor and I understand it as being a funny.  



SSpectre said:


> If they're getting more than 4GB of RAM, then they should be using 64-bit Vista. 32-bit can't use more than 4GB (and in reality I think the limit is a bit less than 4GB).
> 
> Edit... yeah I should read the whole thread first...


I can not speak for the OS, but I know that if you have a dual CPU system each CPU can address 2^32 of their own memory. I have seen, prior to the 64-bit systems, that multiple CPU'd system can have 2^32/CPU. At the machine level at least, they would adress their own memory. The OS can only take advantage of it if it is written too. 64-bit is a flat memory model, multiple CPU memory has to be managed quite differently, with each being flat for the respective CPU, as far as I'm aware.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

There are a couple of things to consider when choosing between a component cable solution and the HDPC-20:

1) Analogue component outputs are already limited to 480p (or OFF!) in scenarios common today: Upconverting DVD players will not upconvert protected material above 480p; HR10 and HR2x can be told to not output above 480p anytime the content providers require it; other devices I am aware of have been known to disable component altogether if the content is protected.

2) Component outputs on Blu-ray can be disabled starting in 2012 (tho disappear even before that.)

3) Digital to analogue conversions reduce the overall quality each time a conversion occurs.

4) If you are building a HTPC and if playback from a HR2x DVR thru the HTPC is a desired feature, you will be required to stick with Microsoft Vista anyway. (Note, that is an if and only if clause so might not apply to your situation at all.)

5) To be balanced, Hauppage makes some really great stuff. This does not have to be an either/or selection. A really good component capture device would be very cool. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

Tom Robertson said:


> And the analogue hole for component can disappear at anytime... The specs are there, the tests are being run, some timelines have been set. (For blue-ray devices.)


Even if your dubious claims that the analog hole is going to be plugged any day now were true (you erroneously claimed in another thread that it was already plugged), it would have only a limited effect. The majority of TV viewing still comes from broadcast TV. That means that as long as you live within range of TV stations, you have access to content that is free, in better-quality HD than your cable or satellite provider can offer, and _can't be DRM'd_.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

rcoleman111 said:


> Even if your dubious claims that the analog hole is going to be plugged any day now were true (you erroneously claimed in another thread that it was already plugged), it would have only a limited effect. The majority of TV viewing still comes from broadcast TV. That means that as long as you live within range of TV stations, you have access to content that is free, in better-quality HD than your cable or satellite provider can offer, and _can't be DRM'd_.


Make your cases:
1) "that I erroneously claimed..." (I backed up my claims numerous times)
2) "The majority of TV viewing still comes from broadcast TV"
3) "better quality HD"
4) "can't be DRM'd"

Please don't hit and run, I do not do that. From time to time, I may add an additional source that I can't link to, but only as part of a larger group of other sources that do support my claim.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> 4) If you are building a HTPC and if playback from a HR2x DVR thru the HTPC is a desired feature, you will be required to stick with Microsoft Vista anyway.


I don't see how that could be true, if you're using HR2x component outputs. How could such a requirement be enforced? How would the HR2x even know what sort of system it was sending video to?


----------



## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

smiddy said:


> I can not speak for the OS, but I know that if you have a dual CPU system each CPU can address 2^32 of their own memory. I have seen, prior to the 64-bit systems, that multiple CPU'd system can have 2^32/CPU. At the machine level at least, they would adress their own memory. The OS can only take advantage of it if it is written too. 64-bit is a flat memory model, multiple CPU memory has to be managed quite differently, with each being flat for the respective CPU, as far as I'm aware.


Each CPU or core in a modern 64 bit system addresses 2^64 bytes of memory.


----------



## Guest (Apr 16, 2008)

Tom Robertson said:


> Make your cases:
> 1) "that I erroneously claimed..." (I backed up my claims numerous times)
> 2) "The majority of TV viewing still comes from broadcast TV"
> 3) "better quality HD"
> ...


There is nothing "hit and run" about my comments. You made a number of erroneous claims. You cited the fact that DVD recorders will only record at 480p as proof that copy protection flags in the content were causing the content to be downrezzed to 480p, when in fact those devices are only capable of recording at 480p. You also claimed that copy-protection flags would prevent devices like the Hauppauge HD PVR from recording in HD over component connections.

As to item 2, check the Nielsens if you don't believe it.

The fact that picture quality on OTA TV is better than cable or satellite is widely known. Do your own research if you want to confirm it.

Over-the-air broadcasts can't be DRM'd. The statement speaks for itself - I'm not sure what it is you want me to clarify. It's what the "broadcast flag" controversy was all about. The only way broadcast TV could be DRM'd is if manufacturers are forced to support the DRM in their hardware. How else do you think they would be able to implement it? It's similar to the reason some DVD recorders will record shows that others won't - the devices (mostly Sony) that won't record over analog inputs are designed to recognize the copy-protection (it's also the reason there are DVD recorders that will record copy-protected DVDs from a DVD player).

Worse than the factual errors is that you've offered up this same speculation that the analog hole is going to be plugged any day now as if it were fact, which it isn't. And every time someone in this forum comments about a new device like the Hauppauge PVR, you jump in and start dissing it with comments about the analog hole going away, as if the manufacturers of these devices would spend millions of dollars developing and marketing products that will become useless any day now.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

"The majority of TV viewing still comes from broadcast TV" coupled with "as long as you live within range of TV stations, you have access to content that is free [...]" implies you are talking about OTA. However ... "As to item 2, check the Nielsens if you don't believe it."

I believe this to be true - most viewing is definitely of the broadcast channels, but I doubt most people view their broadcast channels via an OTA antenna - more likely cable followed by DBS folllowed by Fios folllowed by OTA.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

rcoleman111 said:


> There is nothing "hit and run" about my comments. You made a number of erroneous claims. You cited the fact that DVD recorders will only record at 480p as proof that copy protection flags in the content were causing the content to be downrezzed to 480p, when in fact those devices are only capable of recording at 480p. You also claimed that copy-protection flags would prevent devices like the Hauppauge HD PVR from recording in HD over component connections.
> 
> As to item 2, check the Nielsens if you don't believe it.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but you have erred.

I have never spoken about DVD _Recorders_, only DVD upconverting players. I've had three. None will upconvert copy protected materials beyond 480p. I never cited DVD recording beyond 480p because as you rightly point out, they don't do that. 

I have also cited other sources and other devices. Please support your claims or drop them.

2) Item 2 is your claim not mine. I suspect you are more likely right, but if you don't wish to back up your claims, don't argue against mine without support. Really bad form.  (Yes this is a sidebar, but an example of someone choosing to call others out while not willing to back up their callouts nor their own claims.)

3) Very, very circular logic. Actually, "OTA can't be DRM'ed because OTA can't be DRM'ed" is not logic at all.

Because the "broadcast flag" isn't law doesn't make it not exist. Manufacturers, carriers, et al, if they wanted to play or carry content (and often are content owners as well these days) have ensured that several forms of copy protection exist.

Your very own example, Sony as well as many others, won't record Macrovision protected material clearly indicates that DRM can be introduced. What is to prevent it on OTA? Nothing whatsoever. (Strange argument style, argue by an example that clearly supports my case.)

My contention is that the analog hole has:
1) in some situations been plugged and turned on now (upconverting players)
2) in some situations been plugged only waiting to be turned on (receivers and DVRs that have shown test pages or other scenarios.)
3) in some situations a date has been set for plugging to be turned on (and that compliance means plugging the hole) Blu-ray specifications for example.

Does this mean ALL analog outputs will be disabled in ALL situations? I don't think so, nor do I fear so. But I do know that less and less content will be available at 1080i over component over time.

Does this mean I think "the sky is falling"? I don't think so. Most of the time I'm reminding people that going analog today is likely not the best route.

Does this mean I think "all content will be downrezzed tomorrow"? Only in upconverting players.  The rest will be over next 4 years or so if it will be turned on.

Did I not also say that Hauppauge makes great stuff and that this would be cool? Yup and yup.

It is for each person to decide if a new component solution has enough time and life for their investment. Very likely today, A Hauppauge HD PVR will be low enough cost and cool enough to very useful and loads of fun. I would not use it to replace a HDPC-20 as one poster suggested, if for no other reason than to avoid the extra D/A conversions in a home theatre environment. But I would consider buying one for fun and playing around. 

Again, if you want to accuse then back up the accusations. At least some sort of a token effort. Otherwise, most people would suggest you play nice and don't accuse. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

GregLee said:


> I don't see how that could be true, if you're using HR2x component outputs. How could such a requirement be enforced? How would the HR2x even know what sort of system it was sending video to?


Sorry, I used terms I thought might be clear, but I realize are not.

DIRECTV showed software at CES to playback DVR content on your [HT]PC and that software has a requirement to be run upon Vista. So if you wanted to use both functionality of a PVR and the DIRECTV playback software, then you'd need Vista.

If you don't want to use either of the DIRECTV tools, the HDPC-20 or the PC playback softwre, then you are completely free to pick the OS of your choice as you correctly mention.

Back to your post, GregLee, I don't know of anyway for a component output to sense anything about what the output is connected to. I suspect it can tell if something is connected and not much else.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Just as an FYI, SageTV has announced that they will support the Hauppage HD-PVR, so no, you will not be locked into Vista Media Center. 

The only official chain not supported is whether or not Hauppage will have support for controlling a DirecTV H20/H21 receiver (I would imagine so). Even if they don't, I can trvially implement receiver control with an IR blaster in Linux.

And this can be built as soon as Hauppage ships the HD-PVR.


----------



## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

The facts remain as pointed out several times:

The Hauppage is not an HDPC-20 equivalent. You'd need 2 HR20s, and 2 Hauppage HD-PVRs to accomplish the same goal.

The purpose of this is to record from component outputs on a cable and/or DirecTV receiver. Both of these devices have, and could turn on, downrez of component outputs at any time. Its there, its been tested and accidently turned on at times. There is no debating that subject.

If you were to use the Hauppage HD-PVR for something other than recording from a cable or satellite HD device, the question would be why not just put in an OTA card? So again, the HD-PVRs purpose is to record from a non-OTA device, unless of course you are into Rube Goldberg device building...

My point is that the other topics are a ways off the mark... they are more about freedom and political statements than this thread. The HDPC-20 is at least 4-6 months away at the earliest by all indications, and the Hauppage HD-PVR is an interesting stop gap that has significant limitations compared to the HDPC-20 and runs the risk of being impacted by downrez behavior in the future.

Chris


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

GregLee said:


> Each CPU or core in a modern 64 bit system addresses 2^64 bytes of memory.


The CPU is capable of this true, however system builders are only allowing 2^48 last I knew. It is based on address lines, however individual implemetnors have yet to address 2^64 as far as I'm aware, this may have changed since the last time I looked into it when I was coding my own OS (in ASM).


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Whoa! This thread took a serious turn into things other than the HDPC-20 and when it will be available. I have been told the expectation is November-ish currently, I can not substantiate this though so your mileage may vary. I also intend to hold off on my HTPC move until the Christmas timeframe due to this new knowledge. In a seperate vien I intendt to find out more about the Blu Ray 2.0 specs and understand what is available now (to which I hope this thread dies, and I will move onto the Blu Ray threads already started in other areas of this great forum). Thanks everyone for your inputs...I think I got more that I bargained for, but alas I did ask, right?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

smiddy said:


> I have been told the expectation is November-ish currently


you're not basing this on my guess are you?? :lol:


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

AirRocker said:


> you're not basing this on my guess are you?? :lol:


Nope, I got another source... I can not reveal.


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

smiddy said:


> ...to which I hope this thread dies...


Nooooooo! Thread...must...live...must...survive...gurgle... 

(sorry, just couldn't help myself)


----------



## SSpectre (Feb 23, 2008)

Just FYI regarding Windows memory limits...

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx

Vista and XP 32-bit have a 4GB limit.


----------



## Guest (Apr 20, 2008)

Drew2k said:


> I believe this to be true - most viewing is definitely of the broadcast channels, but I doubt most people view their broadcast channels via an OTA antenna - more likely cable followed by DBS folllowed by Fios folllowed by OTA.


It's true the vast majority of people are getting their broadcast channels through cable or satellite, but the point I was making is that you _could _get it over the air. And since OTA broadcasts are unencrypted and _can't be DRM'd_, there isn't anything that would prevent you from recording to devices like the Hauppauge PVR. It wouldn't accomplish anything to put any DRM on those channels that are available OTA, since it could be easily bypassed by using an OTA tuner. And it certainly wouldn't render devices like the Hauppauge DVR obsolete, as some have suggested.


----------



## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorry, but you have erred.
> 
> I have never spoken about DVD _Recorders_, only DVD upconverting players. I've had three. None will upconvert copy protected materials beyond 480p. I never cited DVD recording beyond 480p because as you rightly point out, they don't do that.


Oh really? Let me refresh your memory. I said:



rcoleman111 said:


> In order for the copy protection to work over component connections, the receiving device has to be able to recognize the flag. That's why it's called the "analog hole". And it's why there are DVD recorders on the market that can record copy-protected DVDs from DVD players.


You replied:



Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, you can copy at up to 480p. Not HD. That is how the hole is sorta plugged.


Seems pretty clear you're the one who has erred, not me.



Tom Robertson said:


> 2) Item 2 is your claim not mine. I suspect you are more likely right, but if you don't wish to back up your claims, don't argue against mine without support. Really bad form.  (Yes this is a sidebar, but an example of someone choosing to call others out while not willing to back up their callouts nor their own claims.)


So you "suspect" I'm right, do you? How very generous of you. What I've stated isn't merely a "claim", and it isn't the kind of unsupported speculation you've been known for. You can look at the Nielsen ratings and confirm this yourself. Cable shows typically get a fraction of the ratings of network shows, and there are relatively few of them compared to network. Why do suppose that is?



Tom Robertson said:


> 3) Very, very circular logic. Actually, "OTA can't be DRM'ed because OTA can't be DRM'ed" is not logic at all.
> 
> Because the "broadcast flag" isn't law doesn't make it not exist. Manufacturers, carriers, et al, if they wanted to play or carry content (and often are content owners as well these days) have ensured that several forms of copy protection exist.
> 
> Your very own example, Sony as well as many others, won't record Macrovision protected material clearly indicates that DRM can be introduced. What is to prevent it on OTA? Nothing whatsoever. (Strange argument style, argue by an example that clearly supports my case.)


Over-the-air broadcasts are not even encrypted. There's nothing to prevent anyone with a tuner from picking up the MPEG stream and doing with it as they please. That is precisely the reason the broadcasters tried to get the "broadcast flag" mandated. The only way any DRM could be introduced is if the receiving devices supported it, which most manufacturers are not going to do voluntarily. The fact that you are even arguing this point proves that you are not the expert on this topic that you are making yourself out to be.

The rest of your post is just a rehashing of what you've posted in the past - unsupported speculation that is not backed up by any facts.


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

dherndon said:


> Couple more 2 cents worth.
> 
> Most people I know are buying Quad core's with 4 Gigs (or more). 32 Bit Vista Premium or Ultimate of course. Evidently, both ATI and NVidia are going to be releasing nextgen cards soon, but NVidia is ahead now in h.264 chip level support (9600GT card seems to be the recommended card now).
> 
> Dave.


I'd look into the 8500GT cards. MSI sells a nice one with SPDIF passthrough to HDMI on the card. It has full HDCP support and h.264 decoding on chip. Runs quite nice and with passive cooling on my rig.

X


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Xzisted said:


> I'd look into the 8500GT cards.


Has it been established that a special display card isn't required?


----------



## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

If I had to take a guess the only possible "special" display card requirement would be one with working HDCP which a 8500gt with hdmi should have.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

At this point, very little has been established. I would think that eventually any sufficiently powerful computer with an MPEG4 decoder (h.264) graphics card should work. But what is "sufficiently powerful" going to mean. 

Of course, we may find that in the early release only a few graphics cards will support all of the features in the new Windows Media Player. But other drivers should follow quickly, I'd hope.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

evan_s said:


> If I had to take a guess the only possible "special" display card requirement would be one with working HDCP which a 8500gt with hdmi should have.


I should think HDCP would be a minimum requirement, which basically means DVI or HDMI.

I also suspect we'll want MPEG4 decoding as well. (Or a REALLY fast CPU.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> I also suspect we'll want MPEG4 decoding as well. (Or a REALLY fast CPU.)


I would guess that most any modern desktop processor could handle the task unless it was folding on all cores.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> I would guess that most any modern desktop processor could handle the task unless it was folding on all cores.


It could--if it didn't have an OS watering down the performance... 

With all the forward and backward looking bits inside each group of pictures as well as panning motions, MPEG4 is not trivial to decode at full HD stream rates.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> With all the forward and backward looking bits inside each group of pictures as well as panning motions, MPEG4 is not trivial to decode at full HD stream rates.


This is easy to test using something as primative as TaskMon. My system usually doesn't have any trouble doing DIRECTV grade (1280x1024) H.264 videos with FAH running on one of the cores.

Even if decryption was handled by the CPU, it shouldn't add much overhead.

afterthought: "Watering down" is far too gentle a term for what Vista does to the performance of a machine. I'm thinking more along the lines of "hosing down".


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Alas, you don't say what your system consists of for comparison.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

harsh said:


> Has it been established that a special display card isn't required?


A special display card is NOT required. It uses whatever video card you have in your system. However, in the case of a HTPC setup, it is recommended that you use one of the later generation video cards provided by NVidia or ATI. There are a few reasons for this.

1. Later generation cards with proper driver support in XP/Vista can offload the video processing from the CPU and onto the GPU. This will free up your processor during playback of MPEG-2/4 and H/X.264 encoded streams to do other things.

2. Later generation cards come fully compliant with HDCP. This will allow you (when vista supports it) to play back High Definition Video Content (Blu-Ray) without having the picture downressed.

3. Later video cards can actually support all the resolutions that current and next generation televisions run at natively. For instance, my 8500GT card that I mentioned connects via HDMI to my Denon 3808Ci receiver which then connects directly to my Samsung 1080p television. My television talks THROUGH my receiver directly to the PC and sets the resolution to 1920x1080 automatically. The only thing I have to do is tinker with the color settings in my NVidia driver and all is good. Previous generation 7xxx and 6xxx series GeForce cards from NVidia (even running the latest drivers) had some serious issues with that and not taxing the bejesus out of the GPU.

So no, you are not required to have a specialized video card for the HDPC-20. However, if you are attaching the device to a HTPC with the expectation that Vista Media Center will handle it and you would like to remove some of the technical hurdles of hand configuring a bunch of video settings, I'd recommend it.

X


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

evan_s said:


> If I had to take a guess the only possible "special" display card requirement would be one with working HDCP which a 8500gt with hdmi should have.


In all likelyhood, the HDPC-20 will probably NOT require HDCP as that would add an additional layer of DRM that is currently NOT supported in any way through Vista Media Center. The only way to currently view HDCP protected content on Vista is through a third party application such as PowerDVD. There is also the very real problem of transmitting HDCP over non-HDMI/DVI connections. My pretty well educated guess will be that all video will be decoded from the stream via the HDPC-20 and handed to the computer via USB. The stream will then be wrapped probably with the dvr-ms wrapper which has timecoding and copy protection embedded in it. Nothing that DirecTV sends down is encoded in 1080p anyway. So it is kind of a moot point to even be discussing HDCP with this product at this time.


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> I should think HDCP would be a minimum requirement, which basically means DVI or HDMI.
> 
> I also suspect we'll want MPEG4 decoding as well. (Or a REALLY fast CPU.)
> 
> ...


I wouldnt suspect too hard on that. HDCP is not currently utilized in Vista Media Center and none of the content streamed via satellite by DirecTV is 1080p. I have not seen a SINGLE instance yet where someone has used HDCP on video under 1080p in resolution and there is no industry push to do so at this time, even to close the digital/analog hole.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Xzisted said:


> In all likelyhood, the HDPC-20 will probably NOT require HDCP as that would add an additional layer of DRM that is currently NOT supported in any way through Vista Media Center. The only way to currently view HDCP protected content on Vista is through a third party application such as PowerDVD. There is also the very real problem of transmitting HDCP over non-HDMI/DVI connections. My pretty well educated guess will be that all video will be decoded from the stream via the HDPC-20 and handed to the computer via USB. The stream will then be wrapped probably with the dvr-ms wrapper which has timecoding and copy protection embedded in it. Nothing that DirecTV sends down is encoded in 1080p anyway. So it is kind of a moot point to even be discussing HDCP with this product at this time.





Xzisted said:


> I wouldnt suspect too hard on that. HDCP is not currently utilized in Vista Media Center and none of the content streamed via satellite by DirecTV is 1080p. I have not seen a SINGLE instance yet where someone has used HDCP on video under 1080p in resolution and there is no industry push to do so at this time, even to close the digital/analog hole.


The way you use the term HDCP, I wonder if you are confusing it with some other protocol.

HDCP is a required part of the HDMI handshake, and optional on DVI-D but very common.

In some manner, Windows must ensure that the HD content is protected all the way thru to the display. Analogue monitors will not be allowed to run protected HD content (only exception will be integrated laptop monitors.)

Internally, DLNA uses DTCP between devices as well as MS DRM technologies. To the display, HDCP will be required.

I have to ask how have you missed HDCP usage and requirements? I've had 3 upconverting DVD players. Without HDCP, they will not display copy protected DVDs above 480p.

Blu-ray specifications will not allow component outputs with restrictions starting in 2010. Doesn't matter if content is 1080i or 1080p.

And I'm very aware that many DVRs support various forms of content protection requiring HDCP connections (ie HDMI) should (when) the content providers start requiring such.

So, I'm pretty certain Fiji will support HDCP as a requirement for output as dictated by the content.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

harsh said:


> I would guess that most any modern desktop processor could handle the task unless it was folding on all cores.


While I agree with that statement, I would say that the more you can offload from the CPU, the better your results are likely to be. Besides, I believe that nearly every graphics card you can buy anymore has built-in decoding, doesn't it? With Nvidia nearly everything they make has their "PureVideo" hardware acceleration and ATI has their "Avivo" and UVD hardware decoding. So I don't think this is going to be a big worry either way.


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

harsh said:


> "Watering down" is far too gentle a term for what Vista does to the performance of a machine. I'm thinking more along the lines of "hosing down".


I've found this to be very true on a 2gb machine, however my experience indicates that with 4gb, it runs about the same as a 2gb XP machine. I'm not saying this is good, just that I think the issue can be overcome by throwing silicon at it.


----------



## BudShark (Aug 11, 2003)

JayB said:


> I'm not saying this is good, just that I think the issue can be overcome by throwing silicon at it.


:lol: 

Thats the equivalent of saying a 1960s VW Bug performance problem can be overcome by throwing more horsepower at it... Well YEAH! But what have you really gained/accomplished?

The question is why? I don't want to hear about Aero either. Aero accomplishes the exact same thing you can get out of a *Nix box or Apple system with half the horsepower (if you even need that much!). And supposedly, Vista had the most thorough cleansing of backwards compatibility yet which should have streamlined core components.

The challenge is what did Microsoft accomplish with Vista? We all know that the components necessary for the HDPC-20 and cablecards, Aero, security, DirectX10, etc could be ported back into XP - but they aren't because they want us to go forward. But to go forward we have to throw twice the silicon to get the same performance, with only "artificial" gains. I think this is the issue Microsoft is facing. A rejection of the forced artificial movements. Its a value proposition that sides only with Microsoft and its hardware partners, and is not fooling the consumer.

Chris


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

smiddy said:


> I am planning on building a *H*ome *T*heater *PC* and would like to put the HDPC-20 into it (as part of it).


As the bulk of the HDPC-20 appears to be external to the computer, the most complex change that might have to be made to the HTPC is a change-out of the display card.

I'd suggest that if you have a use for a very expensive DVR that doesn't do satellite, go ahead and buy one. If it is waiting for the HDPC-20, don't rush. You may be able to get away with existing media server software for some time.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

BudShark said:


> Its a value proposition that sides only with Microsoft and its hardware partners, and is not fooling the consumer.


You underestimate the gullibility of the consumer.

Even at that, the most glowing reports that I hear these days is "it isn't that bad".


----------



## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

JayB said:


> I've found this to be very true on a 2gb machine, however my experience indicates that with 4gb, it runs about the same as a 2gb XP machine. I'm not saying this is good, just that I think the issue can be overcome by throwing silicon at it.


Ditto, my 4Gb Vista Ultimate machine runs quite well. I guess it is just a matter of having enough memory for the pretty new interface.


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> The way you use the term HDCP, I wonder if you are confusing it with some other protocol.
> 
> HDCP is a required part of the HDMI handshake, and optional on DVI-D but very common.
> 
> ...


Eh, you catch someone commenting at the end of an 18 hour day at the office. My main point is that DirecTV will almost assuredly not be ADDING any additional DRM over and above what is already provided for in Vista. The cable companies tried to do that with CableCard devices for computers and it REALLY did not work out too well.

In thinking about it, yes, DirecTV and Microsoft could limit what devices and in what manner people can watch content by requiring the end to end HDCP handshake. I am not sold that they will do that however. There are a couple reasons for that. Looking at a device like this, what is the market they are trying to penetrate? My guess would be that there are really only two types of people who would utilize a device like this. First would be people who want to use the device in a HTPC style setup. Plug the HDPC-20 into your main computer or HTPC and watch content via that OR......via a MCExtender such as the XBox 360 (most of which use component cables to connect). The other target market would be people who just want to watch some television while they work.

The point I am trying to make is that while there are some people out there who have a HTPC attached directly to their televisions which can support HDCP (like myself), most people out there do NOT. The only way they can get content from DirecTV on their TV's would be either via a receiver OR via an Extender (XBox 360 or like). Most of those extenders, unfortunately, connect via component cables. Newer XBoxes and Extenders are shipping with HDMI outputs, but they still have not reached a critical mass yet and are quite a bit more expensive. To put it bluntly, using HDCP to downres content for people without the 'proper' setup would be punishing alot of users out there and would earn alot of bad blood. Especially seeing as how most DRM is easily defeated nowdays and can be stripped off so that people are left with a completely content protection free .avi file.

Thats just my opinion though. Sorry about the previous rambling post, I'll try to get more sleep next time.


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

JayB said:


> While I agree with that statement, I would say that the more you can offload from the CPU, the better your results are likely to be. Besides, I believe that nearly every graphics card you can buy anymore has built-in decoding, doesn't it? With Nvidia nearly everything they make has their "PureVideo" hardware acceleration and ATI has their "Avivo" and UVD hardware decoding. So I don't think this is going to be a big worry either way.


Intel still has the lions share of installed video cards in the market. Mainly due to the fact that they ship an end to end OEM onboard solution. None of their stuff yet has onboard decoding capabilities like the NVidia and ATI cards do.


----------



## Xzisted (Feb 12, 2007)

Ratara said:


> Ditto, my 4Gb Vista Ultimate machine runs quite well. I guess it is just a matter of having enough memory for the pretty new interface.


Unfortunately, its not JUST the interface. Running Vista with Aero disabled doesnt gain you that much performance with 2gb of memory in the system. There is alot of 'other' stuff going on in the background of Vista that really drags it down. I think they just coded really slow hamsters in the wheels of this OS.

That being said, when I threw 4gb into my HTPC it started to fly. When I enabled Aero on it I noticed no slowdown whatsoever. My guess is that Aero is tied more to your rendering capabilities than it is to your overall system speed. Aero got alot snappier for me when I upgraded my video card from a 6600gt to an 8500gt.


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

BudShark said:


> Thats the equivalent of saying a 1960s VW Bug performance problem can be overcome by throwing more horsepower at it...


Yup. Pretty much the same as when I needed 2gb to run XP at the same performance 1GB did for Win98SE.



BudShark said:


> The question is why?


To play Halo 2 of course... 



BudShark said:


> And supposedly, Vista had the most thorough cleansing of backwards compatibility yet which should have streamlined core components.


But it still has to have some backward compatibility and that's always going to be the downfall of Windows - MS will never be able to bring themselves to just bite the bullet and start over as Apple did.



Xzisted said:


> Intel still has the lions share of installed video cards in the market.


Doh! I always forget about the Intel junk. While that's true, I don't think very many people actually try to run an HTPC with that, do they? Maybe they do...dunno.



Xzisted said:


> My guess is that Aero is tied more to your rendering capabilities than it is to your overall system speed.


Yup, you're absolutely correct. Vista is the first MS O/S that actually uses the GPU of your graphics card effectively - you can run a pretty low end CPU and as long as you have a semi-nice graphics card, Aero will run pretty well. Which brings me to:



BudShark said:


> The challenge is what did Microsoft accomplish with Vista?


I'm hoping that the actual use by the O/S of the GPU instead of reliance solely on the CPU will help with the types of applications that folks in this forum are interested in. As what we want to do with video and graphics becomes more sophisticated, it's my hope that MS has been smart enough (yeah, I know, but I can hope) to integrate the use the GPU appropriately so that as those new uses come along, such as the new D* box, they can be handled more easily and with less problems. Probably a vain hope, but hey, ya never know...


----------



## Dan1 (Jul 25, 2007)

It's amazing that everything is so quiet on this. Has anyone got any updated information? How well is it performing in beta? Any updates on availability?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Dan1 said:


> It's amazing that everything is so quiet on this. Has anyone got any updated information? How well is it performing in beta? Any updates on availability?


It's quiet because noone has any further info to share... I'm as ready as the next guy for this thing to be released... but nothin to do but sit back and wait...


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Personally I'm amazed at the number of people who see this as a living room device. Considering that you can buy complete VMC extenders for about the same price as a decent video card, it would only seem to make sense to me. 

I can't wait for the HDPC-20, and I can't wait to pull out all of my coax and ship back my HR20's & HR21's.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

The covert folks playing with the beta must be busy, uhm, playing with no news lately. Last I heard it was coming out in November 2008, just in time for Christmas.


----------



## HDTVFreak07 (Sep 12, 2007)

I can't wait for this too but... it's summer now and I spend every weekend at the cottage enough to forget about the HDPC-20 for now. I open the cottage sometime in April and close the first or second weekend of November. Hopefully, as soon as I close the cottage, HDPC-20 gets released!

As for during the week all summer long... I hope my business picks up as soon as possible so I do not sit anywhere and start wishing again. My business is so bad now that I might have to go and find a part-time night job. First time in 16 years in this business have I EVER experience a work-drought this long (since November '07). One week, maybe two weeks have been the longest until just now. I'm just hoping that I'll survive. I know that there are many others that are in the same boat I am in.


----------



## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

So this will have a hard drive in the unit or will it turn a PC into a 2 tuner receiver/recorder? Looks nice if it doesn't cost too much. I would imagine it will be a lease?


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

SParker said:


> So this will have a hard drive in the unit or will it turn a PC into a 2 tuner receiver/recorder? Looks nice if it doesn't cost too much. I would imagine it will be a lease?


Reportedly, it will have two tuners that plug into a computer running the next released version of Windows Media Center (codename Fiji).


----------



## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

Ken S said:


> Reportedly, it will have two tuners that plug into a computer running the next released version of Windows Media Center (codename Fiji).


Ahh so Vista Ultimate edition wouldn't work?


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

SParker said:


> Ahh so Vista Ultimate edition wouldn't work?


No, there will be a downloadable update for vista, not like there is going to be a newer OS out by then.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

SParker said:


> Ahh so Vista Ultimate edition wouldn't work?


"Fiji" is an update to the _Media Center components_ of Vista, and it's considered a major upgrade. You can think of it as a service pack for Media Center, instead of for the entire OS. Media Center has a dedicated programming department at Microsoft.


----------



## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

IIP said:


> "Fiji" is an update to the _Media Center components_ of Vista, and it's considered a major upgrade. You can think of it as a service pack for Media Center, instead of for the entire OS. Media Center has a dedicated programming department at Microsoft.


So it will support two tuners? Or will it support more than two tunners?

This thing would be awsome. I could reduce all DVR's in the house to a single DVR (for backup) and a Media Center PC with two HDPC-20's (perhaps 3).


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Will Fiji support QAM recording? That wold be cool ...

but that's just helping to keep this thread WAY off topic!


----------



## SParker (Apr 27, 2002)

Cool, if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg I might have to get it.


----------



## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Will Fiji support QAM recording? That wold be cool ...
> 
> but that's just helping to keep this thread WAY off topic!


I would hope so since the current version already does. 

My friend has a dual cable card set up with 3 extenders, he's happy with it.


----------



## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

I am really into having a central server that stores all my movies, albums, and recorded TV in one spot. People do not just watch TV in one room anymore, you have to have a home theater, an outdoor screen by the pool, one in the bedroom, a different TV for everyone at night, and a couple of other screens in various places. Stored and live content needs to be available at the touch of a button everywhere.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

mjones73 said:


> I would hope so since the current version already does.


Well that's news to me, and I'll be banging my head if you tell it does support it... All searches I've done, everything I try, and I can't use MCE to tune to or record from my two Clear QAM cards in my Vista HTPC. Instead I have to use either ATI Catalyst or Pinnacle software to tune and record from the Clear QAM digital channels. That's why I'm hoping when Fiji is introduced as a replacement for the current MCE that I can use it for my Clear QAM channels ...


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Supporting QAM and supporting (your) sepecific QAM devices isn't the same thing. It is quite possible that the Fiji update will support a wider array of QAM devices.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Can you please point me to a Microsoft page that says Vista MCE supports Clear/Unencrypted QAM? All I'm finding are quotes from third party sites and blogs that it's not supported at this time, but there's hope for it "in the future". I assume Fiji is the "future", but if there's something I can read from Microsoft that says it's here now, I can't find it ...

Thanks.


----------



## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

I think all current devices that work with QAM do so with their own plugin. I know i've read about several mfgs that have plugins in various states of development.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Microsoft won't release details in any form. They were supposed to have begun the testing phase a year ago and it is just getting started.

Do not hold your breath on the release of this product.

I'm thinking that Fiji will be the choice of DIRECTV subscribers and anything else will be the choice of CATV subscribers. I'm guessing that DIRECTV subscribers on old-fashioned QAM MDUs are just plain screwed.


----------



## sotti (Jan 6, 2006)

Currently only cable card devices support QAM natively in MCE (vista only)
QAM support is available via plug-ins for various other 3rd party tuners.

now DBS2 is what we really need for direct-TV support.
Also needed native mpeg4 decoder.

Fiji just hit RC0 I think last week.
This means we could see RTM in anywhere from 1-2 months to as many as 6. But if they are on RC0, Fiji is deffinetly unlikely to slip to 2009.

Also to the previous discussion of HDCP. I'm sure the HDPC-20 will require HDCP. VMC already knows about HDCP, it is required for cable card use.


----------



## digitalfreak (Nov 30, 2006)

Doesn't look good.

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/271026.aspx

I suspect Ben has an insider, and he's usually pretty reliable.


----------



## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Well that's news to me, and I'll be banging my head if you tell it does support it... All searches I've done, everything I try, and I can't use MCE to tune to or record from my two Clear QAM cards in my Vista HTPC. Instead I have to use either ATI Catalyst or Pinnacle software to tune and record from the Clear QAM digital channels. That's why I'm hoping when Fiji is introduced as a replacement for the current MCE that I can use it for my Clear QAM channels ...


I made the assumption if it works with cable cards, it would work with clear QAM also and I was apparently wrong in doing so, I should have looked into more before I responded. I did read that it's been leaked out that there is better support in Fiji so hopefully it'll be easier for you once that update comes out.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

digitalfreak said:


> Doesn't look good.
> 
> http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/271026.aspx
> 
> I suspect Ben has an insider, and he's usually pretty reliable.


As Ben says further down in that thread, if he had solid info, he'd post it on the front page of Engadget. That said, he is very shrewd and smart. He might be assembling the puzzle pieces together and drawing conclusions.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ebockelman (Aug 16, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Can you please point me to a Microsoft page that says Vista MCE supports Clear/Unencrypted QAM? All I'm finding are quotes from third party sites and blogs that it's not supported at this time, but there's hope for it "in the future". I assume Fiji is the "future", but if there's something I can read from Microsoft that says it's here now, I can't find it ...
> 
> Thanks.


If you use a HDHomeRun, Vista Media Center can record clear QAM.


----------



## Steve615 (Feb 5, 2006)

Would something like the HP MediaSmart Connect be of interest?More info at the following link.

http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/mediasmart-connect/index.html?jumpid=ex_r602_go/mediasmartconnectconnect/msconnecthome#/Main/



Elephanthead said:


> I am really into having a central server that stores all my movies, albums, and recorded TV in one spot. People do not just watch TV in one room anymore, you have to have a home theater, an outdoor screen by the pool, one in the bedroom, a different TV for everyone at night, and a couple of other screens in various places. Stored and live content needs to be available at the touch of a button everywhere.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Steve615 said:


> Would something like the HP MediaSmart Connect be of interest?More info at the following link.
> 
> http://www.hp.com/united-states/cam...mediasmartconnectconnect/msconnecthome#/Main/


I am fearful of software RAIDS.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

If this is going to take forever, then it might be time to jump ship and go with the Hauppauge HD-PVR. Vista media Center is nifty and all, but there's not much on it that I can't do in a Linux-based networked PVR.


----------



## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

smiddy said:


> I am fearful of software RAIDS.


What does software RAID have to do with this?


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

mjones73 said:


> What does software RAID have to do with this?


I beleive, if I'm not mistaken, that the HP MediaSmart Server has a software RAID. That is in reference to the post I quoted...the HDPC-20 doesn't have a RAID that I'm aware of, it might though. It might have HDMI out too, but I don't know. I was thinking it was an add-on to a PC. Perhaps I'm wrong...I wish I knew, but I don't.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

smiddy said:


> I beleive, if I'm not mistaken, that the HP MediaSmart Server has a software RAID. That is in reference to the post I quoted...the HDPC-20 doesn't have a RAID that I'm aware of, it might though. It might have HDMI out too, but I don't know. I was thinking it was an add-on to a PC. Perhaps I'm wrong...I wish I knew, but I don't.


The HDPC-20 [from a first look] is a USB connected dual tuner "box" [requiring your PC to store recordings].


----------



## Steve615 (Feb 5, 2006)

Here are the tech specs for the MediaSmart Server.

http://h71036.www7.hp.com/hho/cache/598857-0-0-225-121.html



smiddy said:


> I beleive, if I'm not mistaken, that the HP MediaSmart Server has a software RAID. That is in reference to the post I quoted...the HDPC-20 doesn't have a RAID that I'm aware of, it might though. It might have HDMI out too, but I don't know. I was thinking it was an add-on to a PC. Perhaps I'm wrong...I wish I knew, but I don't.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"and *DLNA-compliant *servers such as HP's Media Vault and MediaSmart servers" - looks promising.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Steve615 said:


> Here are the tech specs for the MediaSmart Server.
> 
> http://h71036.www7.hp.com/hho/cache/598857-0-0-225-121.html


Yep, a different product. I was thinking you meant this: http://www.shopping.hp.com/can/desk...htL3rdkggFMmvrvP0yJvRt8n52SH78G2B!-1392054626


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> The HDPC-20 [from a first look] is a USB connected dual tuner "box" [requiring your PC to store recordings].


That was what I thought, but it was at least 6 months ago, plausible deniability, eh?


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

P Smith said:


> "and *DLNA-compliant *servers such as HP's Media Vault and MediaSmart servers" - looks promising.


They are inexpensive, but for a server RAID I'd go with a hardware solution. With the amount of media I have (could have on a server with DVDs) I would like it to be fast...I saw a demo of the MediaSmart servers (not connect) and wasn't impressed.

I'm not savy on DLNA-Compliancy, since I have nothing that does it, I suppose.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

smiddy said:


> That was what I thought, but it was at least 6 months ago, plausible deniability, eh?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1375723&postcount=1

As for RAID, I believe it has more to do with what level [version] of RAID you are using. Some are slower [mirroring] and others are faster [striping]


----------



## bushead (Jun 28, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Yep, a different product. I was thinking you meant this: http://www.shopping.hp.com/can/desk...htL3rdkggFMmvrvP0yJvRt8n52SH78G2B!-1392054626


I don't think the HP servers do raid at all. It uses a software system that allows you to specify folders that you want to "mirror", but I don't think it is any sort RAID based system.


----------



## mjones73 (Jun 20, 2006)

bushead said:


> I don't think the HP servers do raid at all. It uses a software system that allows you to specify folders that you want to "mirror", but I don't think it is any sort RAID based system.


From what I've read that's correct, it's just using functionality built into Windows Home Server to mirror any folders you mark as important across multiple disks.


----------



## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

What you are thinking of is the Drive Extender software. I have Windows Home Server and it primarily allows two things.

1) You can 'pool' your drives together. Insead of trying to remember what disk out of the dozen or so internal and external disks a given file is on, you can pool the drives together so that they look like one drive. This is what I've done and I have one drive that looks like a 4TB drive even though it's really 4 1TB drives put together.

2) You can duplicate folders. What this does is make a backup copy of every file in the folders you select by making a copy on another physical drive (though it's still the same 'logical' drive). It ensures that, should you lose one physical drive, not a single file will be lost. Obviously, you have to have more than one drive in the pool in order for this to work AND you have to have enough spare space. Mind you, you don't have to duplicate EVErYTHING. You can select what 'top level' folders you want this for. For example, if you want to duplicate all your pictures but not your music or videos, you can. Same holds true for user backups.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Bad news....I am so sick of disapointements when it comes to directv and media center:

Sorry to say it guys, but it looks like I am right.

I just received another private message and this one comes right out and says it.

"Hello bjdraw...


as for Fiji...


No DirectTV


No H264


and it will be an OEM only release ... no public release!"

Of course they could just be pulling my leg, but I'm afraid that they aren't.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> No, there will be a downloadable update for vista, not like there is going to be a newer OS out by then.


I stand corrected, kind of. You will need a new computer entirely for fiji since it appears it will only be available on OEM pc systems, albeit still a modified Vista.


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

As of June 30th 2008... Project Fiji information leaked:

1. It will support DirecTV using the HDPC20
2. The HDPC-20 is being tested NOW by people using the Fiji Beta.
3. Fiji will be available as an upgrade to Vista Ultimate and Home Premium
4. As of the date above OEM involvement is not required.
5. Fiji as it currently exists includes a new Media Center only updater engine althought the speculation is that this may be combined with the regular updater in the final version. Currently it is separate.
6. Speculation is highest that this will be referred to as “Windows Vista Media Center Feature Pack 2008″.

Projected release is still this year and before the holidays. 

I got the information above from a solid source who will remain protected. I have been tracking the program for some time now (would have liked to be part of it) but anytime Microsoft is involved (and DirecTV for that matter) nothing is ever certain.

Microsoft's mantra these days is "It'll be ready when it's ready". I guess they are tired of the beat down they get every time they miss a date. Personally, as much as I would like to have this technology right now, I think I am willing to go along with waiting for it to be fully cooked. I can't think of anything worse for Microsoft and DirecTV than to have this program turn in to a problem after nearly 2 years of work.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dbsdave said:


> Bad news....I am so sick of disapointements when it comes to directv and media center:
> 
> Sorry to say it guys, but it looks like I am right.
> 
> ...





LarryFlowers said:


> As of June 30th 2008... Project Fiji information leaked:
> 
> 1. It will support DirecTV using the HDPC20
> 2. The HDPC-20 is being tested NOW by people using the Fiji Beta.
> ...


Quite the contrast between posts 133 and post 135! 

Does "available as an upgrade" mean "for free" or "for fee"?

Now I really want to know who' is bjdraw?


----------



## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

Drew... I saw the exact same thing and thought the exact same thing... must be a Long Island response (from Amityville and Bay Shore)! lolol

NorfolkBruh


----------



## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

Thanks Larry for the update. Looks like at least for now, things are close to the original schedule.

Drew, good question,......who is the real bjdraw


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

Sorry... I wasn't as clear on the upgrade point... the plan as it currently exists is that users of Vista Ultimate and Home Premium would receive the upgrade in the normal course of events... not a "fee" upgrade. 

You may not have noticed but you received a substantial update to media center in June...


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

LarryFlowers said:


> Sorry... I wasn't as clear on the upgrade point... the plan as it currently exists is that users of Vista Ultimate and Home Premium would receive the upgrade in the normal course of events... not a "fee" upgrade.
> 
> You may not have noticed but you received a substantial update to media center in June...


Thanks Larry - glad it will be free! I do recall an update for Media Center, but I have no idea what it changed ... I actually haven't used Media Center on my Vista for a while, using the software for the HD cards instead.


----------



## bjdraw (Jan 25, 2007)

Rob77 said:


> Thanks Larry for the update. Looks like at least for now, things are close to the original schedule.
> 
> Drew, good question,......who is the real bjdraw


I'm the real bjdraw, just ask Earl we've met a few times.

As for the conflicts. I'm not sure LarryFlower's contact is, but I do know mine and I've had more than one tell me that the DirecTV tuner beta is not happening right now. They just received RC0 and it does not include DirecTV support or h.264. From the sounds of it the Beta testers are not happy.

What I hope is happening is that the DirecTV beta just got smaller because of all the early leaks and my sources were simply left in the cold, but I'm not that optimistic.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

bjdraw said:


> I'm the real bjdraw, just ask Earl we've met a few times.
> 
> As for the conflicts. I'm not sure LarryFlower's contact is, but I do know mine and I've had more than one tell me that the DirecTV tuner beta is not happening right now. They just received RC0 and it does not include DirecTV support or h.264. From the sounds of it the Beta testers are not happy.
> 
> What I hope is happening is that the DirecTV beta just got smaller because of all the early leaks and my sources were simply left in the cold, but I'm not that optimistic.


uggggg


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

It appears my friend was correct way back when this thread started. The focus at Microsoft nowadays is on Windows 7. It appears that may be the earliest we see HDPC-20 support and H.264. I'll have to poke him some more and see if there is a real definitive word on when/if there ever will be a released DirecTV tuner addon for Windows.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/05/no-directv-hd-for-vista-media-center-until-2010/

Note: There are HDPC-20s in existence. I've seen one running a while back. It could be the patch that enables it won't be distributed by MS and may only come with the HDPC...we'll just have to wait and see or hopefully someone will drop a hint.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

I don't care who is at fault, it's totally inexcusable if we have to wait that long for recording and sharing capabilities almost every other tv provider allows for, whether directly or through 3rd party software and hardware.


----------



## bjdraw (Jan 25, 2007)

I got a little more information on this.

Evidently the HDPC-20 is being tested, but before MS releasing anything they do a wider beta where they invite outsiders (non MS or DirecTV employees) to test. In this case, the normal group of outsiders was sent hardware agreements a few months ago with the details of the HDPC-20 test, but then more recently they were told that support for the tuner wouldn't be included in Fiji and will not be a part of the test. 

My hope is that HDPC-20 support will just have it's own update, but even if that is the case it still won't be available in October when Fiji is supposed to be released. I suppose it could still make it this year, but I'm not sure why the beta testers are being told Windows 7.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

If it is indeed going to be in Windows 7, then its time for me to get SageTV. Let me know how that whole thing works out in 2010, though.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

morphy said:


> If it is indeed going to be in Windows 7, then its time for me to get SageTV. Let me know how that whole thing works out in 2010, though.


It appears you want to use WMC with the HDPC-20 for DIRECTV service but since some stories say that won't be available until Windows 7, you're moving to Sage. What's Sage going to do for you in regards to DIRECTV? As far as I know, it'd be the same as using Fiji wit DIRECTV, because without support for the HDPC-20, all you'd be able to do is tale Video-out from a DIRECTV receiver into Sage or WMC ...

I guess I'm confused how moving to Sage helps you out here...


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> As far as I know, it'd be the same as using Fiji wit DIRECTV, because without support for the HDPC-20, all you'd be able to do is tale Video-out from a DIRECTV receiver into Sage or WMC ...


That's the whole point. Since WMC provides no upside for him, then he would rather use Sage to take advantage of the additional features.


----------



## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> That's the whole point. Since WMC provides no upside for him, then he would rather use Sage to take advantage of the additional features.


I just looked at their site briefly, and it appears Sage is $80. The Fiji update to WMC will reportedly be free. Without looking further but knowing that neither WMC nor Sage will work with DIRECTV HDPC-20, I know which one I'd use - the free one. It will especially work for me when Fiji comes out, as I have Cablevision with ClearQAM channels and can't wait to use WMC with it.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I just looked at their site briefly, and it appears Sage is $80. The Fiji update to WMC will reportedly be free. Without looking further but knowing that neither WMC nor Sage will work with DIRECTV HDPC-20, I know which one I'd use - the free one. It will especially work for me when Fiji comes out, as I have Cablevision with ClearQAM channels and can't wait to use WMC with it.


The SageTV solution, paired with a standalone HD receiver (or two) and a Hauppauge HD PVR, works today. Right here, right now, no vaporware, no promised compatibility patches in 2010.

My next best option is dropping DirecTV and going Cablecard, and I don't want to go there. I live in a Charter neighborhood. :nono2:


----------



## MrD1234 (Sep 1, 2007)

morphy said:


> The SageTV solution, paired with a standalone HD receiver (or two) and a Hauppauge HD PVR, works today. Right here, right now, no vaporware, no promised compatibility patches in 2010.
> 
> My next best option is dropping DirecTV and going Cablecard, and I don't want to go there. I live in a Charter neighborhood. :nono2:


I can vouch for this solution. I have been using Sage with DirecTv for several years now. I recently purchased an HD-PVR for component. I am waiting for the second HD-PVR to arrive.

The wife can not tell the difference in picture quality between the "live" DirecTV feed and the recorded feed.

I record from 2 DirecTV boxes, one into a HD-PVR and the other into a PVR-150.


----------



## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

morphy said:


> My next best option is dropping DirecTV and going Cablecard, and I don't want to go there. I live in a Charter neighborhood. :nono2:


Not to mention that you'd have to buy an entire computer, with limited available hardware configs, in order to go CableCard.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Better anyway then the vaporware. 
Because I know how finished previous attempt - ABA-1030/ABA-1020 cards for DTV and Echo.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Some reason for hope:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/08/are-there-two-vista-media-center-updates-due-this-year/


----------



## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> Some reason for hope:
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/08/are-there-two-vista-media-center-updates-due-this-year/


Though very well-intentioned, they have often been significantly off in their reporting of the future.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Ya but bjdraw at greenbutton endorses it.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

weren't these the two who started all of this "ruckus"?  

No native H.264 was to be a show stopper, but MCE 2005 didn't come with MPEG-2 support either, and that didn't stop it's release.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> weren't these the two who started all of this "ruckus"?
> 
> No native H.264 was to be a show stopper, but MCE 2005 didn't come with MPEG-2 support either, and that didn't stop it's release.


As more info came out, bjdraw was pretty obviously right before anyone else with his predictions that directv compatibility and the other features would not be in the first update that was leaked, and has been very reliable in the past.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dbsdave said:


> As more info came out, bjdraw was pretty obviously right before anyone else with his predictions that directv compatibility and the other features would not be in the first update that was leaked, and has been very reliable in the past.


Don't take me wrong, I'm not picking on bjdraw.
I just have to wonder [a bit] about the speculations and reasons for posting. [slow news day?]
I read one or two of the links, and all of the hubbub was about native H.264 not being in the there, and can't see how it could be a "show stopper" as some reported.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

What would be the showstopper is if there is no integration with directv in windows media center until windows 7 comes out in 2010.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

dbsdave said:


> What would be the showstopper is if there is no integration with directv in windows media center until windows 7 comes out in 2010.


+1  or should it be


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I read one or two of the links, and all of the hubbub was about native H.264 not being in the there, and can't see how it could be a "show stopper" as some reported.


How are you going to watch DirecTV's HD channels without H.264 support?


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> How are you going to watch DirecTV's HD channels without H.264 support?


Nvidia & ATI have hardware supported H.264 in their newer cards/chips.
Nero has it too along with the CyberLink [DirecTV] media share to PC software. Add to these the BluRay player software, the Nvidia PureVideo HD, and it seems that H.264 can be "found" many places.


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> it seems that H.264 can be "found" many places.


I know that it's supported by a wide variety of software, but I'm specifically talking about Media Center, which is the only software that matters as far as the HDPC-20.


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I know that it's supported by a wide variety of software, but I'm specifically talking about Media Center, which is the only software that matters as far as the HDPC-20.


Well, the HDPC-20 will need drivers, as do the video cards, so......
[again] this isn't anything different than when MCE 2005 came out. If you wanted to play a DVD or use a OTA tuner, they/you needed to supply the MPEG-2 decoder that would work with MCE.


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

I have remained quiet since my last post in this thread as everyone seemed to "know" that we were not going to see the Vista Media Center... HDPC-20 and H264 this year. Everyone seems to think it isnt going to happen until Windows "7".

I reiterate my earlier information: Fiji, currently planned for late this year (by the holidays) will support everything we are looking for. Even Engadget has posted new information: http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/08/are-there-two-vista-media-center-updates-due-this-year.

They have also added an interesting tidbit... support for 4 Tuners in Vista Ultimate!


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bjdraw said:


> I'm the real bjdraw, just ask Earl we've met a few times.
> ...


I'm not Earl, but since Earl can't respond I will. Bjdraw here and at greenbutton is Ben Drawbaugh at EngadgetHD. (I hear some forehead slapping and a few mentions of duh!) 

Ben is a great resource and fun person, btw. We've met at the last 2 CESs.

So when Ben posts with caveats of rumors or guesses, I trust his instincts. And when he says his sources are saying things, he's been accurate in the past.

Thanks Ben for the updates!
Tom


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Man, this thread is making me very sad. I wanted to build a HTPC with this puppy. Now I'm thinking that it won't make it until next Winter (2009).


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

It will slow slip to next century .


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

smiddy said:


> Man, this thread is making me very sad. I wanted to build a HTPC with this puppy. Now I'm thinking that it won't make it until next Winter (2009).


As the device is external, you probably don't need to concern yourself about the hardware assembly unless it requires a decoder/decrypter card. Cards aren't that tough to install.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

P Smith said:


> It will slow slip to next century .


I sure hope not, but to your point who can really say?



harsh said:


> As the device is external, you probably don't need to concern yourself about the hardware assembly unless it requires a decoder/decrypter card. Cards aren't that tough to install.


You have a good point, why wait? I was hoping to align the hardware/software with the technology and not know the specs and basing it on today's technology may be a wrong answer. On the other hand, if it is next century, I will have to upgrade the system anyway, right?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

smiddy said:


> I sure hope not, but to your point who can really say?
> 
> You have a good point, why wait? I was hoping to align the hardware/software with the technology and not know the specs and basing it on today's technology may be a wrong answer. On the other hand, if it is next century, I will have to upgrade the system anyway, right?


Build it and it (HDPC-20) will come.

*µß*


----------



## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> Build it and it (HDPC-20) will come.
> 
> *µß*


Or it might be vapor ware...


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

AlbertZeroK said:


> Or it might be vapor ware...


I seriously doubt it vaporware. IIRC, it was on display at the CES.

It'll come...as to when... 

Mike


----------



## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> I seriously doubt it vaporware. IIRC, it was on display at the CES.
> 
> It'll come...as to when...
> 
> Mike


LMAO! There is a ton of stuff on display at CES that vaporizes! Remember DirecTV ToGo?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

MicroBeta said:


> I seriously doubt it vaporware. IIRC, it was on display at the CES.
> 
> It'll come...as to when...
> 
> Mike


You should study history of such devices.
And where is those PCI cards-receivers from 1999 ? ABA-1020/1030 ?


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

AlbertZeroK said:


> LMAO! There is a ton of stuff on display at CES that vaporizes! Remember DirecTV ToGo?


I understand where you're coming from but I just don't think this one is.

IMHO, the HDPC-20 is going to be part of integrating all the Directv stuff in the house.

I have more confidence in this then a new generation of DVRs....it's a theory. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

P Smith said:


> You should study history of such devices.
> And where is those PCI cards-receivers from 1999 ? ABA-1020/1030 ?


IIRC, they were supposed to be the next big thing from E*.

Didn't the failure of these have as much to with that collaboration with Gateway 2000 (which was on the verge of collapse at the end of the 90's) as anything else?

AFAIK, Adaptec continues to make tuner cards even though that initial outing didn't pan out.

I fully understand how these things can go. I'm a believe it when I see it kind of guy. However I believe this is comming.

Mike


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"they were supposed to be the next big thing from E*" - for both companies, not just E.


----------



## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

P Smith said:


> "they were supposed to be the next big thing from E*" - for both companies, not just E.


Just goes to show that my memory isn't that great...:lol:


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

Interesting action on The Green Button forums... it seems that the VMC "TV Pack 2008" (aka Fuji) was released, but to OEM's only. A lot of the users are reporting that their respective OEM's know absolutely nothing about it. The OEM's say "call Microsoft", and Microsoft says "call your OEM".

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/275036.aspx

Oh well, if these releases truly are OEM-only, then its only a torrent file away. 

Hopefully this will be the first release, and then the next one will have DirecTV support.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Thanks Morphy!


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Not really good news to me, for one it confirms vista wont have directv support for quite a while longer if ever, not surprising considering recent rumors, but also confirmation that microsoft intends to go ahead with this OEM only update route. Lets hope we all can install these updates whether microsoft wants us to or not.


----------



## bsand2007 (May 30, 2007)

From the sounds of this blog posting, we shouldn't be holding our breath for an HDPC-20 to be released any time soon....

"When testers (and those of us who love talking to them) first began hinting about Fiji two-plus years ago, Fiji was set to be a major update to Media Center. As the test builds finally started rolling out, it became clear that Microsoft was *cutting a number of promised and anticipated features, such as Direct TV and H.264 video-compression support*, in order to get the update out the door."

Link:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1518


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

bsand2007 said:


> From the sounds of this blog posting, we shouldn't be holding our breath for an HDPC-20 to be released any time soon....
> 
> "When testers (and those of us who love talking to them) first began hinting about Fiji two-plus years ago, Fiji was set to be a major update to Media Center. As the test builds finally started rolling out, it became clear that Microsoft was *cutting a number of promised and anticipated features, such as Direct TV and H.264 video-compression support*, in order to get the update out the door."
> 
> ...


Yeah, this was mentioned earlier on The Green Button forums. In fact, Fiji has already been released although it is only to OEMs for the moment. It does not have H264 or DirecTV HDPC support.

The going semi-rumor is that there will be a second update to VMC that will include H264 with DRM (which will support DirecTV's HDPC among other devices) and also DVB-S for people in Europe with premium HD.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I'd hate for folks to turn blue in the face ..


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I'd hate for folks to turn blue in the face ..


Why...you prefer green?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The whole idea has predictable result. Negative.


----------



## MIAMI1683 (Jul 11, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> I'd hate for folks to turn blue in the face ..


Thats not a good statement for the future of this. :nono2:


----------



## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

That ZDNet article leaves alot to be desired...

One thing glaringly stands out: I participated in close to 2 years of Vista beta testing. Windows "7" has yet to reach the point of beta testing beyond a very close knit group. The thought that Windows "7" will come out in 2009 is Ludicrous in the extreme. WIndows 7 in late 2010 is much more likely.


----------



## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

If we have to wait two years for the HDPC-20....they may as well forget about it. As quickly as technology changes and new equipment comes to the forefront.....developers and customers will come up with an alternative unit long before a 24 month period. After all....this is NOT rocket science


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I'd hate for folks to turn blue in the face ..





MIAMI1683 said:


> Thats not a good statement for the future of this. :nono2:


As you surely know, Doug takes absolutely no pleasure in his note.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

morphy said:


> Yeah, this was mentioned earlier on The Green Button forums. In fact, Fiji has already been released although it is only to OEMs for the moment. It does not have H264 or DirecTV HDPC support.
> 
> The going semi-rumor is that there will be a second update to VMC that will include H264 with DRM (which will support DirecTV's HDPC among other devices) and also DVB-S for people in Europe with premium HD.


My apologies, bsand. I didn't read the whole article and I assumed it was just rehashed Fiji info. And well, we all know what happens when I "assume".

So yeah, I'm leaning closer and closer to purchasing a Hauppauge HD PVR and just going Sage. If I do, and DirecTV downrezzes premium HD (I don't care about PPV) then I'll drop them.

One way or another, I will be watching HD over cat-5 and not RG6 runs to each room, and over an interface more in tune with this decade. (as opposed to the Atari 2600-esque HR20 GUI)


----------



## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Engadget has more on TV pack for Vista. I'm in the camp that thinks the OEM limitation of this update could be good for HDPC-20, as the update is going to be more easily available, rather than an OEM update that requires you to re-install vista.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/06/engadget-hd-gets-a-first-hand-look-at-the-vista-tv-pack-aka-fij/


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Directv and microsoft are making my life very difficult. I have a nice mult room htpc setup that's not being used to its fullest because the wifey does not want an over complicated setup like with the hauppage. If I have to reinstall with a different vista, then so be it, but Im tired of all the broken promises and delays. I don't want to switch providers, but this is making me consider it.


----------



## HelenWeathers (Oct 7, 2007)

My hopes were raised for the HDPC-20 at CES Jan 2007. I am very disappointed it has taken so long. In fact I have given up and gone with SageTV and the Hauppauge HD PVR. Sage plays my dvr-ms file library just fine and the Haup unit with Sage gives a far better picture than my analog tuners w svideo. On par with my computers internal DigitalTV tuner.


----------



## grizzly (Aug 27, 2005)

As I look at it, DTV had a narrow window before IPTV made it to the mainstream and I think if it takes them longer than the end of the year they are going to lose that window. 

Nothing would make me happier than to dump all my cable and sat boxes and have a broadband connection, a media center and TV a la carte'. 

I'd have the channels and shows I wanted and no religious, shopping, sports, infomercial channels/shows.

This really hacks me off.


Kevin


----------



## MIAMI1683 (Jul 11, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> As you surely know, Doug takes absolutely no pleasure in his note.


 I know he doesn't. He is just telling it like it is. Better now instead of having everybody's hopes up.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> Directv and microsoft are making my life very difficult. I have a nice mult room htpc setup that's not being used to its fullest because the wifey does not want an over complicated setup like with the hauppage. If I have to reinstall with a different vista, then so be it, but Im tired of all the broken promises and delays. I don't want to switch providers, but this is making me consider it.


http://store.sagetv.com/Merchant2/m...ode=SOS&Product_Code=STVBSTX&Category_Code=SB

Put the HTPC in a closet and put that in your living room. I keep my VMC server (possibly soon to be SageTV server) in a network rack in my basement.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

grizzly said:


> As I look at it, DTV had a narrow window before IPTV made it to the mainstream and I think if it takes them longer than the end of the year they are going to lose that window.
> 
> Nothing would make me happier than to dump all my cable and sat boxes and have a broadband connection, a media center and TV a la carte'.
> 
> ...


I used to recommend DirecTV to everyone I knew.

Now when people come over they are impressed the most with my VMC setup, not my DirecTV setup. When they ask me why I'm only capturing SD over S-Video instead of recording HDTV, I tell them that it is DirecTV's and Microsoft's fault.

And don't even say OTA. I don't live where I can receive it consistently and network television is worthless anyway (my opinion).

In a relatively short amount of time, I AM going to be able to do this. The question is whether I'll be doing it in a way that makes DirecTV's TRUE customers (the television networks) happy or not. Like I said earlier, if they down-rez component outputs for anything but PPV, I'll drop them like a rock. I can buy PPV movies in HD from just about anybody, so that doesn't bother me that I lose the ability to buy it from DirecTV.

I have pairs of RG-6 run to a large number of rooms in my house (more than I have televisions) for DirecTV reception, alongside pairs of cat5. In December, the RG6 will be removed and used to pull through a mix of USB, HDMI, more cat-5, and maybe even fiber to each room. Why? Because it (RG6) is dead technology once its used past my network rack. I'm just waiting on the #1 satellite company in the world to stumble onto this fact too.


----------



## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> I seriously doubt it vaporware. IIRC, it was on display at the CES.


Just like the Home Media Server?


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

well not that this is that important for directv subs yet, but it appears contrary to popular belief the first tv pack can be installed without OEM hardware or even reinstalling the OS, though Im sure there will be issues to iron out


----------



## grizzly (Aug 27, 2005)

I'm sure this will all be ironed out sometime before the end of 2009.

*sigh*


Kevin


----------



## nollchr (Jan 3, 2005)

DarinC said:


> Just like the Home Media Server?


Ouch..don't re-open that wound...:eek2:


----------



## Rob77 (Sep 24, 2007)

grizzly said:


> I'm sure this will all be ironed out sometime before the end of 2009.
> 
> *sigh*
> 
> Kevin


Once again, Kevin....this is taking way to long.....no way people are waiting another 18 months... time to look at other alternatives. Especially with the reason being that it will help sell Windows 7. I did not know D* was in the business of helping Microsoft sell Windows 7


----------



## grizzly (Aug 27, 2005)

Rob77 said:


> Once again, Kevin....this is taking way to long.....no way people are waiting another 18 months... time to look at other alternatives. Especially with the reason being that it will help sell Windows 7. I did not know D* was in the business of helping Microsoft sell Windows 7


I was sorta being sarcastic. I've found that people respond well to the threat of using a cattle prod on them. I see no reason that this would not work on MS employees or managers.

DTV is not a small company. I can't imagine that they cannot put pressure on Microsoft or get someone else to add the drivers onto Vista that they need. I'll bet any one of the video card manufacturers would be just tickled to get the business. Quite frankly the fact that I might have to buy a specific vendors video card to use the HDPC20 wouldn't be a problem.

Vendors already supply codecs for Blueray and HD-DVD playback.

Reminds me of what they did to the ultimate TV box.

Kevin


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

HelenWeathers said:


> My hopes were raised for the HDPC-20 at CES Jan 2007. I am very disappointed it has taken so long. In fact I have given up and gone with SageTV and the Hauppauge HD PVR. Sage plays my dvr-ms file library just fine and the Haup unit with Sage gives a far better picture than my analog tuners w svideo. On par with my computers internal DigitalTV tuner.


CES 2007? I was there, DIRECTV and Dish network were both saying it was all up to Microsoft at 2007. (And no mention of a HDPC20 at that time, the hope was for a adapter card solution.)

Now, at CES2008, we all had very high hopes. Marketing slicks were available and we were able to talk freely about the HDPC-20.

From the GreenButton I gather Microsoft didn't get MPEG4 working, major bummer.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

DarinC said:


> Just like the Home Media Server?


Home Media Center is coming. The HR20/21 already identify themselves as HMC Lite servers.


----------



## HelenWeathers (Oct 7, 2007)

At CES 2006 Sean Alexander said “In the future (timing wasn't discussed), you'll be able to have an installer come out and install a DirecTV tuner into your Media Center PC and get your local channels complete with DVR. As many know, DirecTV uses their own protection scheme with a "conditional access card" not unlike a CableCARD.”

By CES 2007 I was told that it might be a card or maybe an external usb device.

Regardless, It has been the old "coming soon" routine for far too long for me.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> Home Media Center is coming. The HR20/21 already identify themselves as HMC Lite servers.


Ahh...well then that guarantees it.


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

This might be a chance to learn more from some of the folks at The Green Button.

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/08/06/281732.aspx


----------



## scuba_tim (Sep 23, 2006)

Great link Ken, thanks. Will keep an eye on that.


----------



## HelenWeathers (Oct 7, 2007)

*Tom Robertson:* My apologies. When I said my hopes were raised for the HDPC-20 at CES Jan 2007 I didn't mean to imply that the HDPC-20 was around just yet in Jan 2007. It's just that when the HDPC-20 was shown in 2008, I figured that that was the device they were talking about back in 2007 & contemplating in 2006.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

HelenWeathers said:


> *Tom Robertson:* My apologies. When I said my hopes were raised for the HDPC-20 at CES Jan 2007 I didn't mean to imply that the HDPC-20 was around just yet in Jan 2007. It's just that when the HDPC-20 was shown in 2008, I figured that that was the device they were talking about back in 2007 & contemplating in 2006.


No worries at all. I completely understood what you meant. You added some good info that I didn't get at CES myself that year. Thanks!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Ugggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggh:

"Today Microsoft made the Windows Media Center TV Pack official. Formally codenamed Fiji, the TV Pack is meant to add support for various TV signal types within Vista Media Center. News about the TV Pack has been leaking out for the past month, and instead of waiting for CEDIA as originally planned Microsoft let the cat out of the bag today so people will know exactly what to expect and not to expect within the TV Pack.

First of all, yes the TV Pack is OEM only. The official word for the OEM only release has basically centered around the installation method, which according to Microsoft was designed for a clean install of Vista Service Pack 1 (plus a few patches) before the new software bits can be loaded. As some have already figured out, it is possible to avoid the clean install method and just install it on your existing Vista SP1 install, but of course it isn't suggested. Outside of the install method the TV Pack is very dependent on new hardware (TV Tuners) and thus that likely played into the decision to make the product OEM only. Sadly, Microsoft seems to have forgotten the big splash they wanted to make by including Media Center in two of the Vista SKUs and getting away from the OEM only release. By providing the TV Pack as an OEM only release they have (once again) kicked all existing news while they were already down.

*Next up on the list, DIRECTV and H.264 support which will not be shipping in the TV Pack. I don't believe an official reason has been given, other than the previously leaked "more complex then expected" but I wouldn't count on seeing it until Windows 7. As I've said in the past, the chance of another Media Center release this year and/or DIRECTV support shipping separate is very doubtful (read: not going to happen)."*

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/08/08/282556.aspx


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Well, I guess I should have believed the guys I know at MS. They told me this was going to happen months ago. 



Ken S said:


> People might want to start thinking about Windows 7 and not Vista. While Vista isn't dead, Windows 7 is quickly becoming the main focus at Microsoft. There was to be a "minor" release/refresh of Vista, but that may not occur.
> There still may be a Media Center update for Vista near the end of this year, but should that slip much it might just be pushed into Windows 7.
> 
> Windows 7 should be entering beta late this year or early in 2009.


----------



## dbsdave (May 1, 2007)

Im betting at this rate there will be nothing that helps directv subs even in the first version of windows 7. Then we start waiting for a patch that turns into windows 8, and on and on we go


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

dbsdave said:


> Im betting at this rate there will be nothing that helps directv subs even in the first version of windows 7. Then we start waiting for a patch that turns into windows 8, and on and on we go


I'm pretty sure Windows 7 is going to be the last OS that Microsoft sells in the form we're all familiar with.

It's like Bob Dylan once sang..."The times they are a changing..."


----------



## bjdraw (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm still not convinced we'll have to wait until Windows 7, but maybe that is my eternal optimism talking. I do hear now that it was a combination of MS and DirecTV not being ready. 

Personally I believe all the ground work for the DirecTV tuner is in the TV Pack and it may just be a "driver" that will be installed (that would obviously include H.264 support) with the hardware to bring it all together.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Thanks Ben .. It's been months since I've heard anything about the HDPC-20, so I don't have much to say.


----------



## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/chris_blog/archive/2008/09/12/293078.aspx



> AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Sept. 12, 2008 - Today at IBC2008, Microsoft Corp. announced it has delivered in the marketplace Protected Broadcast Driver Architecture (PBDA), Microsoft's new worldwide platform for broadcast TV on the PC. Made possible by the recent release of Windows Media Center TV Pack, the platform for the first time enables the PC-TV hardware ecosystem to integrate virtually any free or premium TV service into Windows Media Center, while satisfying the TV industry's requirements for strong content protection in the case of pay TV.


----------



## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

One interesting effort is an attempt to reverse-engineer the MSDTVVDEC.DLL file from the brief Beta VMC TV Pack revision that included H.264 support. The file was set to expire after a certain time, and you can't just change your clock since that will break the guide and scheduling (of course).

With H.264 support, VMC would likely be able to be modified via module to support both the existing HDPC-20 beta hardware out in the field, as well as the Hauppauge HD-PVR and the H.264-based hardware used in European DBS feeds.

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/9/288601/ShowThread.aspx#288601

Normally, that would be considered hacking, but hey, Microsoft owns the message board that is coordinating it!


----------



## heaphus (Oct 30, 2006)

Signed driver for HDPC-20 found in Windows 7 pre-beta build.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=597


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

It is a shame that blame for the late delivery is laid, in whole or even in part, at DIRECTV's feet. I believe that much, if not all of the blame lies with Micro$oft's ongoing inability to provide a secure DRM solution.

One of the positive aspects of the possible availability of the HDPC-20 and a new DirecTiVo model will be some serious pressure on DIRECTV to get busy on ironing out the kinks with their own software.


----------



## rocketx2 (Mar 15, 2008)

I read this too... exciting!!


----------



## mrfatboy (Jan 21, 2007)

hopefully a big announcement at ces? Please don't screw it up this time


----------



## ChrisL01 (Jun 19, 2006)

harsh said:


> It is a shame that blame for the late delivery is laid, in whole or even in part, at DIRECTV's feet. I believe that much, if not all of the blame lies with Micro$oft's ongoing inability to provide a secure DRM solution.


This is an interesting concept to me, because Microsoft has provided such code for the past 2 years as a part of CableCARD. What part of this do you think is different?

I wouldn't lay all the blame on D*, I'd put it on both Microsoft and D* for different parts.

Chris


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ChrisL01 said:


> This is an interesting concept to me, because Microsoft has provided such code for the past 2 years as a part of CableCARD. What part of this do you think is different?


The part that is different is that DIRECTV is going to be hardnosed about DRM.


----------



## ChrisL01 (Jun 19, 2006)

You must not know about CableLabs.  If you want hardnosed, you should read the OCUR specs.

All of Microsoft's DRM subsystems do everything that D* needs it to do.

Chris


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ChrisL01 said:


> All of Microsoft's DRM subsystems do everything that D* needs it to do.


Ask CableLabs where all of the WWE and UFC HD PPV torrents are coming from. Those DirectX scrapers are remarkably handy tools.

The drivers to operate the PCI card were available but the device never materialized. Now that the device is USB, it probably looks a whole lot more like a serial controlled satellite receiver that can stream. Still not available. What could the problem be?


----------



## ChrisL01 (Jun 19, 2006)

I guarantee those torrents are not coming from a CableCARD recording. Though, they could be coming from a number of sources including TiVo (which can transfer Copy Freely content to the PC w/ no problem), or the HD PVR which makes 1080i recordings with 5.1 audio in H.264 with no protection, or various other sources that didn't have any protection associated with it in the first place.

I can 99.99% guarantee protection has nothing to do with the delay.

Chris


----------



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

I can 99.99% guarantee that anytime you send media from one device to another be it a DVR to a TV or a computer to a monitor it can be captured. The only difference is at what point the copying takes place and whether or not the copy is identical or not.


----------



## ChrisL01 (Jun 19, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I can 99.99% guarantee that anytime you send media from one device to another be it a DVR to a TV or a computer to a monitor it can be captured. The only difference is at what point the copying takes place and whether or not the copy is identical or not.


No argument there, the point you guys are missing is that all the protection technologies are already there and being used by products with very strict protection rules. The chance of D*'s rules being that different from CableLabs is very slim, especially considering the "rules" are really that of the content owners and in both cases D* and CableLabs answer to the exact same content owners.

Chris


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I always was skeptical about the technology since my hope died in year 1998 after ABA-1020/1030 cards disappear , and now we had the final word:

*No HDPC-20 in nearest future. *

[The sad news posted by Scott Greczkowski]


----------



## hancox (Jun 23, 2004)

Argh. Vaporware strikes again!


----------



## jefbal99 (Sep 7, 2007)

hancox said:


> Argh. Vaporware strikes again!


There was some hardware in the MS Labs...


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

hancox said:


> Argh. Vaporware strikes again!


Unfortunately, physical, working HDPC-20s actually existed. That makes it even worse.


----------



## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

Probably some sort DRM issue is the real headache why it got canned.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Like HDMI capture cards.


----------



## idigg (May 8, 2008)

This is worse than duke nukem forever


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Like HDMI capture cards.


Those actually exist, though.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Received this from DirecTV:



> DIRECTV has suspended the development of the HDPC-20 tuner project that was designed to integrate DIRECTV service into Windows Media Center after assessing the impact of missing the August 2008 release of Windows Media Center update and considering timing of the next release.
> 
> Both DIRECTV and Microsoft understand the desirability of offering consumers an all encompassing DIRECTV programming solution via Windows-based PCs. We are continuing to explore ways to integrate DIRECTV service with Windows-based PCs in the future.
> 
> The HDPC-20 tuner that appears on the driver list of a pre-Beta build of Windows 7 is an artifact that was listed prior to the decision to suspend the tuner project. As our plans progress toward a Windows Media Center-compatible product, we will make an announcement at the appropriate time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Chris Blount said:


> Just received this from DirecTV:


Sounds pretty "dead" now to me....


----------



## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

This truely stinks. I was seriously looking forward to finally consolidating all my media in one interface.

Of course, they could make it up to me by giving me a Direct2PC plug-in for media center...


----------



## TMar (Sep 2, 2007)

Well that's a real kick in the . I don't think it will ever see the light of day. I just so wanted to have all my media in one spot that was all easily accessible from within one interface, is that to much to ask?


----------



## Steve615 (Feb 5, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> Received this from DirecTV:


Thanks for the update Chris. 
I imagine that is not what alot of folks wanted to hear,but for the time being,we now know where the project stands.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

TMar said:


> Well that's a real kick in the . I don't think it will ever see the light of day. I just so wanted to have all my media in one spot that was all easily accessible from within one interface, is that to much to ask?


Imagine, if by any small chance you somehow will make a copy of the recording(s) - all the companies will go bankrupt ! 
They will probably kill themselves if they will see the your chance and release the boxes.


----------



## dvrblogger (Jan 11, 2005)

JayB said:


> This truely stinks. I was seriously looking forward to finally consolidating all my media in one interface.
> 
> Of course, they could make it up to me by giving me a Direct2PC plug-in for media center...


There are 3 rd party launchers that allow you to launch DIRECTV2PC in media center and return to MCE if you are interested PM me.


----------



## Ebony Blue (Jun 7, 2006)

dvrblogger said:


> There are 3 rd party launchers that allow you to launch DIRECTV2PC in media center and return to MCE if you are interested PM me.


In fact, they work so well...that the first time that I launched DirecTV2PCfrom VMC ..my first thought was..?... Why the heck is DirecTV wasting time building a dedicated hardware tuner when all they need to do is adapt the DirecTV2PC software to integrate into VMC. 
I'd almost bet that similar software will wind up being their solution for supporting media center in the future...

-eB


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Thanks Chris for the update...I'm bummed to say the least, but never the less poop happens. The economy and now this, Chicken Little was right, the sky is falling! :lol:


----------



## rahlquist (Jul 24, 2007)

Ebony Blue said:


> Why the heck is DirecTV wasting time building a dedicated hardware tuner when all they need to do is adapt the DirecTV2PC software to integrate into VMC.


And that may be exactly why development stopped cost cutting something thats really not horribly needed with the current development flow.


----------



## Jolliec (Sep 1, 2006)

And I was using this as the main justification to the wife to build a Media Center PC for Christmas


----------



## CalypsoCowboy (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm hoping for the streaming from the HR22 route, the software is there is just needs to be integrated and that does seam like a simpler route, but until then this is truly disappointing news.


----------



## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

man this stinks, i have 2 htpc's ready, able, and willing


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

dave29 said:


> man this stinks, i have 2 htpc's ready, able, and willing


I waaited before building to ensure I had the right poop, perhaps I should have bought them anyhow. ARGH!


----------



## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

smiddy said:


> I waaited before building to ensure I had the right poop, perhaps I should have bought them anyhow. ARGH!


yeah,i built both of mine this year. they still work great as a mrv device via directv2pc


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

dave29 said:


> yeah,i built both of mine this year. they still work great as a mrv device via directv2pc


Once I get mine I'll do that very thing. and perhaps that is why they decided to put more into DirecTV2PC versus something that is likely a niche market.


----------



## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

Only one thing I can say. 

Whah 

I was really looking forward to building my own HD DVR. Oh well, on the next project.


----------



## nc88keyz (Aug 12, 2007)

Was there ever a reason why the HR2x cannot be interpeted as a USB tuner via the USB ports on the back?

That was always my question. But with direct2pc there is hope still of a HD-Homerun type streaming solution for vista, or WM7


#260, 

I saved you some of the good stuff I've been sipping on this evening. Take it in. Its good for you.


----------



## Rambler (Nov 9, 2006)

> DIRECTV has suspended the development of the HDPC-20 tuner project that was designed to integrate DIRECTV service into Windows Media Center


According to this article, it's officially canceled.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

If not that DRM paranoia, you can use the box right now.


----------



## drjenk (Sep 10, 2004)

JayB said:


> This truely stinks. I was seriously looking forward to finally consolidating all my media in one interface.
> 
> Of course, they could make it up to me by giving me a Direct2PC plug-in for media center...


linuxmce.org

Now there does not exist yet a way to capture HD, but a dev assured me the haugpagge hd capture device will be supported in the future.


----------



## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

You can use the Blackmagic card to capture HD using an HDMI link right now.


----------



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Rambler said:


> According to this article, it's officially canceled.


Looks a lot like what Chris posted earlier


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

nc88keyz said:


> Was there ever a reason why the HR2x cannot be interpeted as a USB tuner via the USB ports on the back?


If they made some *major* software modifications, it could probably be done. But they're not going to do that to a DVR.


----------



## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

nc88keyz said:


> Was there ever a reason why the HR2x cannot be interpeted as a USB tuner via the USB ports on the back?
> 
> That was always my question. But with direct2pc there is hope still of a HD-Homerun type streaming solution for vista, or WM7
> 
> ...


You cannot connect a USB host to a USB host. And both your PC and PVRs are USB hosts, thus they cannot speak to each other at all over USB. I'd rather do any of that kind of stuff over ethernet anyway.


----------



## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Groundhog45 said:


> You can use the Blackmagic card to capture HD using an HDMI link right now.


I wonder if the company will make, or does make, a Blackmagic card that will fit in a laptop, or will this card fit?


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Rambler said:


> According to this article, it's officially canceled.


This is one of the reasons why I posted EXACTLY what DirecTV gave me. I didn't want to interpret the statement and say something that might be incorrect.


----------



## rgreenpc (Mar 6, 2004)

What gets me is that I have been a loyal DirecTV user for eons and I have been hoping and praying for this. I am really at the breaking point though and am ready to scrap it all and go with a cable card system.

I like the MC interface.. I think the DirecTV DVR setup is clunky and worthy of a UI designed in the Windows 3.1 era.

If/when the new Tivo boxes come I would consider switching over, but I would need whole-house distribution and shared recording.

My only other option is Sage and as many people who have Sage have issues with their HD-PVR boxes as do cablecard users.

Thanks DirecTV... for the first time in 13 years, I am considering cable.

Rain fade didn't do it, solar outages didn't do it... you did it yourself.

Sorry just letting off some steam.


----------



## nc88keyz (Aug 12, 2007)

i was looking forward to extenders with MC and directv. 

I wanted to get rid of the $5 fees. Oh well. 

I figured in 2 years the xboxes or whatever hd extended would have paid for itself around the 199 mark or so. 

i wasnt sure how it would all work out but now we wont know at least with the HDPC-20. I was very much so looking to this device. 

According to some rumors appears dish is working with Microsoft as well, Some pictures of the ehome tour from engadget indicate this as well. 

Why ....just why directv. This would have been a crucial project because you are leading and not following for a dbs content provider.


----------



## HDTVFreak07 (Sep 12, 2007)

OHHHHHHHHHHHH NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was seriously looking forward to getting HDPC-20 and now my anticipations and hopes are shot. They better come up with something new so I can use Windows Media Center because I truly love the way I watch TV using WMC. With WMC, I can get more information on actors/actresses, see what other programs and/or movies they're involved with, check the weather without leaving a TV program, etc. I can understand that I can still connect HR or H receivers to a computer but it's not the same thing. HDPC-20 would have been a perfect fit for my home entertainment center or system.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Groundhog45 said:


> You can use the Blackmagic card to capture HD using an HDMI link right now.


The Blackmagic card may not work well with DVRs that are expecting to see terminal devices on the other end.


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Rambler said:


> According to this article, it's officially canceled.


It is baffling how they equate the word "canceled" with the word "suspended". Someone needs to find a new online dictionary/thesaurus.


----------



## BAHitman (Oct 24, 2007)

very disappointed... have a system ready to go now with 2 HDHomeruns and was looking forward to adding 2 HDPC20's... guess I don't need to buy extenders now...

very disappointing...


----------



## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

I'd been waiting and waiting. When my Dishplayer died a few days ago I had to make a decision and E* offered me a good HD upgrade in exchange for a 2 year commitment. I *really* wanted the HDPC20 and was in the process of building a PC for it but first the delay, then the DP death forced my hand as my widescreen is being delivered Saturday.

I wonder if, perhaps, they've decided to go a route that E* seems to be taking? Engadget.com showed a picture of a media extender that had Dishnetwork as one of it's options - think 'Watching E* on an Xbox 360'.

I can imagine that support for an Xbox-based solution would be cheaper than a PC-based one.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

If Sony or Microsoft wrote a DLNA compliant client for their game consoles, we'd be playing DIRECTV recordings today. 

As for HDPC-20, I don't think DRM was the killer. 

And as we've seen, the hardware was all set and ready to rock. Dish and DIRECTV both have mentioned the cause of the delays in their PC based tuners in the past...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BarkingGhost (Dec 29, 2007)

Strange, I thought the tuners were external and the only thing the PC was doing was acting as a storage hardware solution and maybe a playback video device. Of course, I haven't read the first 275 posts either.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

BarkingGhost,

You are mostly correct. The HDPC-20 was basically a two tuner standard receiver without the video outputs. It tuned, granted access, received alerts and guide info, and converted to USB.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

A nice idea that's being put on the shelf for now (based on economic conditions forcing them to take another look at priorities).....seems like a good business decision, but not necessarily a popular one with a limited group of early adopters who were looking forward to this. Oh well.


----------



## rebkell (Sep 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A nice idea that's being put on the shelf for now (based on economic conditions forcing them to take another look at priorities).....seems like a good business decision, but not nessarily a popular one with a limited group of early adopters who were looking forward to this. *Oh well. Things change*.


I guess that would depend on your perspective.


----------



## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

That about sums it up *hdtvfan0001*, I was VERY excited about this product when I got the brochure at the last CES, but times change.

Not a popular decision for those of us who were looking forward to building our own DVR's. But an understandable one, maybe it will come back some day.

(But I'm not going to hold my breath.)


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Draconis said:


> That about sums it up *hdtvfan0001*, I was VERY excited about this product when I got the brochure at the last CES, but times change.
> 
> Not a popular decision for those of us who were looking forward to building our own DVR's. But an understandable one, maybe it will come back some day.
> 
> (But I'm not going to hold my breath.)


Yeah, no one wants to see you Blue in the face.  For that matter I am not holding mine either!


----------



## Packersrule (Sep 10, 2007)

I really wanted this solution. I will now buy Hauppauge HD PVR for long term storage of shows. I am glad the told us so I am not waiting for it.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

Packersrule said:


> I really wanted this solution. I will now buy Hauppauge HD PVR for long term storage of shows. I am glad the told us so I am not waiting for it.


Apparently there's a HDMI input/output card available that could potentially be used as a PVR too: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> If Sony or Microsoft wrote a DLNA compliant client for their game consoles, we'd be playing DIRECTV recordings today.


The PS3 is fully DLNA compliant, it just doesn't implement the optional DTCP that is required to play DirecTV recordings.


----------



## rpineau (Oct 8, 2007)

The blackmagic-design card will not work to record protected content over HDMI as it doesn't support HDCP.


----------



## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

rpineau said:


> The blackmagic-design card will not work to record protected content over HDMI as it doesn't support HDCP.


Right, only unprotected content.

BTW: :welcome_s


----------



## Draconis (Mar 16, 2007)

smiddy said:


> Yeah, no one wants to see you Blue in the face.  For that matter I am not holding mine either!


Considering that both of our avatars are known for extreme halitosis I would hope not. :ewww:


----------



## rherrmann (May 19, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebony Blue 
Why the heck is DirecTV wasting time building a dedicated hardware tuner when all they need to do is adapt the DirecTV2PC software to integrate into VMC. 

Forgive my ignorance, butI thought D2PC is an app that lt's you view DirecTV DVR content on a PC. Does it do more that that?

Thanks, RIck


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

rherrmann said:


> Forgive my ignorance, butI thought D2PC is an app that lt's you view DirecTV DVR content on a PC. Does it do more that that?


No, but adapting it into Media Center allows you to have a convenient TV interface for viewing content from your DVR.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> The PS3 is fully DLNA compliant, it just doesn't implement the optional DTCP that is required to play DirecTV recordings.


That gets into the semantics of what is fully compliant. Since I don't have a copy of the license agreement, I won't go there.

The optional component is very much required for copy protection. 

Peace,
Tom


----------



## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

Ken S said:


> I can 99.99% guarantee that anytime you send media from one device to another be it a DVR to a TV or a computer to a monitor it can be captured. The only difference is at what point the copying takes place and whether or not the copy is identical or not.


There's no question about it. In order to reach the human eye, it has to be converted at some point to a format that can be captured. Even if they could protect the content up to the point where you view it on a TV or monitor, it could be captured in the same way pirates record movies from theatre screens.


----------



## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

The discussion about UPnP compliance of the HR2x family reached a point where it deserved to be put into its own thread rather than this one about the HDPC-20.

So we've created a new thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=147339

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Olias88 (Aug 6, 2008)

This is disappointing news...But it doesn't affect me for now. 

I had been waiting for a PC/DirecTV tuner for several years. A little over a year ago I broke down and got the Blackmagic Intensity Pro and SageTV. Hooked it up a voila! I could do real time viewing and capture of every DirecTV channel, SD and HD. The downsides were I had to capture it via the component outs of the sat tuner, it took a quad core PC to do the conversion, and the files were large. 

Then the Hauppauge device came out and I attached that to a second sat tuner with the result of much smaller captures and less processing power. Tossed in a couple of HD extenders and life is good.

If/when DirecTV offers a hardware solution, I'll look into it but until then I'm good to go.


----------



## rherrmann (May 19, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> No, but adapting it into Media Center allows you to have a convenient TV interface for viewing content from your DVR.


The DVR doesn't have "a convenient TV interface for viewing content"? I guess I am not understanding how having a PC interface to a DVR/STB is equivalent to a native DirecTV HD source for the already existing DVR that a Media Center is.

Rick


----------



## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

rherrmann said:


> The DVR doesn't have "a convenient TV interface for viewing content"?


Not if it's in a different room.


----------

