# Explain it to me: TiVo/DirecTV easier to use...



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Now I have used just about every incarnation of TiVo... up to the Series 3 line. This include's DTivos and SA-TiVos.

In the thread that I posted:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400

Numerous peole have replied that the TiVo UI is easier and more intuitive to use... So... please explain to me why...

Others have stated the DirecTV UI is easier to use.... explain why...

As I have now been using the DirecTV GUI for 2 years... and used the TiVo one for about 7-8 now (granted not daily over the last year)....

And I don't see an overwhelming amount of things, on either system... that would definently put one higher then the other... just don't.

Sure there are an aspect here and there, on either system that is better then it's counter part...

But what makes the TiVo/DirecTV UI interface that much more "intuitive" and "easier" to use...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

The big thing to me that makes the DIRECTV interface easier is the speed. I always hated certain parts of the TiVo interface because of that (can you say "Season Pass?").

There are however, somethings in TiVo that I found easier. Like going to the Playlist. Tivo would always start off where I was last, but DIRECTV starts at the top every time.

So which is better? Hmm .. I personally think that the best of both would give us a better interface. Each could use some improvement.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Earl,

I'm far from a Tivo fanatic..but there were a couple of things that made it easier to use. Nothing I would call earth-shattering. It should go without saying that these are all personal preferences and personal opinion. I can't honestly say that the HR20s interface would be a reason for me to not want the box by any means.

1. The remote was better designed. It was easier to use it without having to look at it. 

2. Slow Motion is really non-intuitive to use well on the HR20 because it requires you to rewind to a point three seconds before where you want to start the slow motion.

3. I don't recall the Tivo requiring the user to do different things to accomplish the same task on different function pages. In other words, on the HR20 if I want to quick delete an item on most pages I can hit dash twice...that's fine...until you get to the To Do list where the STOP button then takes on that task.

4. The Tivo guide presents more information quicker to the viewer than the HR20s.

I'm sure there are other nits.

Don't get me wrong...I don't find the HR20's interface difficult at all and if you have used a Tivo it shouldn't take long to learn most of the functions.

To me the biggest difference between the two systems lies elsewhere.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ken -

For #1: You won't find an argument from me.... The remote we use today, was designed as a "universal" remote to be used with a VCR/DVD player.... I do hope DirecTV does go back and develope a remote, that is for a DVR first, everything else 2nd.

For #3: They have at least made that consistant now, with the RED Button Delete (and key for it on the bottom of the screen) for all of those areas... if not national, it will be in the next national release (I lose track of what is NR and what is CE)


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## Chaser_M (Sep 20, 2007)

At first I didn't like the DirecTV GUI, but know I find it's faster and easier to get to where I want to be. (probably just because I was familiar with the TiVo GUI) The only frustrating issue I have with my HR20 is when I extend the recording time of a program, DirecTv will continue recording - but the extended time is listed as the next scheduled program in the guide. Tivo added the extended time to the original recording and my recordings were never broken up into two recorded shows


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Chaser_M said:


> At first I didn't like the DirecTV GUI, but know I find it's faster and easier to get to where I want to be. (probably just because I was familiar with the TiVo GUI) The only frustrating issue I have with my HR20 is when I extend the recording time of a program, DirecTv will continue recording - but the extended time is listed as the next scheduled program in the guide. Tivo added the extended time to the original recording and my recordings were never broken up into two recorded shows


You should not be seeing "two" entries in your MyPlaylist, for an extended recording.

You will see the "scheduled" information in the banner and the progress bar, if you are nto the next guide entry segement.... that is by design..

But the entry in the playlist should be the "core" program you intended to record.


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## SolidState (Aug 16, 2006)

Earl,

Some of the most striking differences are in the "trick-play" features. If I have a show recorded on both my HR20 and my HR10, I will always choose the HR10 because of the 30-sec skip (which is instantaneous on the TiVo and not-even-close-to-instantaneous on the HR20) and instant replay. Is it me or does the instant replay on the HR20 only take you back 2 or 3 seconds instead of 6 seconds the TiVo rewinds? Also, the skip-to-tick is a PITA on the HR20. If I understand correctly, I have to hold down FF (or REW) for a couple of seconds, release then tap it again to go to the next tick. A major departure from the TiVo's "skip to tick" (or skip-to-beginning of buffer) feature.

Like Doug says, the Now Playing list on the HR10 is MUCH easier to use. I like having my playlist sorted how I want(A-Z, delete by date, recorded date, etc.), with my "foldered" shows appearing in chronological order within their folders. Why does the HR20 only allow A-Z or chronological but no mixture?

The "TiVo" guide on the HR10's is far, far more user-friendly than the HR20's guide. I like being able to browse the listings and view several hours for each channel (when highlighted) WITHOUT having to hit INFO (what a pain on the HR20).

Don't get me wrong, the HR20 has come a long, long, long way in the past 12+ months, but the UI does leave something to be desired in the above respects.

On the pro-HR20 side: the HR20's "series links" setup is much simpler than the HR10, but I'm already at 33 links (and the HR20 is my backup) and should run out of links (is the limit still 50?) soon. I have yet to browse the new HD channels for new shows to record. I also like the fact that if I hit dash twice in the playlist, I can delete the show without being prompted. The longer-than-30-minute buffer is also a MAJOR plus on the HR20 side.

These impressions were made while using a Harmony 670, not the original HR20 remote.


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## cover (Feb 11, 2007)

On the TiVo, I can press the left arrow to get out of pretty much anything I am doing - from watching a recording to changing buried settings in setup. On the HR20, I've had to learn to press the Stop and Exit buttons along with highlighting and selecting Done in the UI. 

When I was first setting up the HR20 and my Harmony remote, I was trapped in some setup screens until I figured out that I didn't have the dedicated "Exit" (as I recall) button from the HR20 remote. Again, with the TiVo, I could always use a left arrow to back out of something.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the HR20 has a terrible UI. There are a few things I like better than TiVo. But, it just isn't as intuitive and consistent.

I had to struggle yesterday to figure out how to customize a Favorites list - even though I had done it before.


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## tfederov (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ken -
> 
> For #1: You won't find an argument from me.... The remote we use today, was designed as a "universal" remote to be used with a VCR/DVD player.... I do hope DirecTV does go back and develope a remote, that is for a DVR first, everything else 2nd.


I guess I'm a little spoiled because I use a Harmony remote (peanut) on a couple of my DVRs (the ones the wife uses). Being able to use a peanut remote to control the HR20 was a good transition for her. She uses the RC64 at times on the rest and doesn't complain as much as she did before I put the Harmony's in use.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> For #3: They have at least made that consistant now, with the RED Button Delete (and key for it on the bottom of the screen) for all of those areas... if not national, it will be in the next national release (I lose track of what is NR and what is CE)


This question may be worth bringing up again when the current CE cycle goes National, because you may get responses from users on the NR who are not experiencing GUI improvements from this cycle right now, but will soon.

In the meantime though:

DTiVo (SD) was better with: 
Remote
Trick-Play
Skip-to-Tick

HR-20 is better with: 
Speed
Intuitiveness (again with many CE improvements)
30 sec Slip and 6 sec Rewind combo (I don't use FF or RW)

EDITED to remove "non-comparable" items


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

In this discussion, I want to stay away from "features" like DoD... Networking... and things like...

This discussion I would like it to be about "using" the system... and why one is "intuitive/easy" to use, when compared to the other... (and this goes both directions)


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## JMCecil (Jan 20, 2007)

The main things about the TIVO interface that I thought work better are:
1) Much more/better/accurate meta-data for searching/recording. This is by a wide margin. The HR20 meta-data is rudimentary at best. EDIT SO THAT IT FITS EARLS THEME: To me the process for creating recordings by search is by far superior/faster/easier.

2) The amount of data available on the guide is far superior. I would prefer 4 hours, but 3 as an absolute minimum. The HR20 has a tremendous amount of wasted space in the UI. The font does not need to be 10 inches tall (ok, I exagerate, but it is unecessarily large). 

3)Many places like the ToDo list require extra clicks into submenus to get to the details, when they have a huge chunk of screen at the top where that info could go.

There are other things here and there, but in general I don't think the HR20 is harder to use. I just think the UI is clunky from an ergonomic standpoint. Just like the remote. The remote doesn't sit in your hand so that the buttons you use 99% of the time are under your thumb or finger. You have to slide your hand up to the top. Not a huge deal, just clunky.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

EDIT......

*For DirecTV:*

1. Reaction times for "button clicks"
6. 1-click recording

*For Tivo*

1. Simple Menu Design (HR-20's menu system is like a bad IVR..press 1 for this, 2 for that, then 1 for this 2 for that, etc etc etc)
2. Dual Live/fully trick-playable Buffers (this makes watching TV easier for me)
3. 30 second skip that is actually 30 seconds
4. No back-up on 1 FF
5. Sound Effects (it actually does help me to know if I screwed up or did something)
9. Replay button that is 8 seconds verses 6? seconds (I always have to hit it twice on the HR20)
[
B]More Tivo features that I want:[/B]

14. Swivel Search
18. Advanced Search capabilities (boolean search strings)

Thats all I can think of at the moment.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Honestly, I can say that I learned the basic feature set of both systems without any problems. The basic functions are clearly laid out on the remotes and I don't necessarially find the TIVO remote any easier to use, just different than the HR20. Since I've had both DirecTV and DirecTIVO products in the house before getting an HR20, I was familiar with the DirecTV remote, but even if not, there isn't much of a learning curve for the remotes.

Other than not having a slow motion button and going crazy trying to figure out how to access the 2nd tuner during the 1st hour after setting up the HR20, I can't say that the HR20 GUI is any more difficult to navigate than the TIVO GUI. In fact, I find myself having to stop and look at my parents TIVO remote and pay attention to the GUI when using their DirecTIVO. Having used the HR20 GUI for almost 1 year now, I find the DirecTIVO GUI clunky, slow and just not as intuitive as I remembered.


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## redfiver (Nov 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> In this discussion, I want to stay away from "features" like DoD... Networking... and things like...
> 
> This discussion I would like it to be about "using" the system... and why one is "intuitive/easy" to use, when compared to the other... (and this goes both directions)


How can you talk about "Using" the system and not stay away from features? I understand staying away from features that weren't available when the unit was new (such as DoD, as it's brand new and not available for everyone), but things like DLB are features that made the HR10 better than the HR20, but the menu speed is a thing that makes the HR20 better than the HR10.

As for the UI, you'll find many different views. I like the look and feel of the Tivo better than the HR20. To me, it was easier to navigate through the menus on the Tivo. I still find it easier to navigate. That said, I like how the HR20 has the PiP showing when going through most of the screens. But little things like the back arrow not always working the same is troublesome in the HR20.

But, with all other features aside, DLB was still the best feature on the Tivo. I used it extensively and miss it very much. It wasn't enough for me to miss out on the extra HD channels the HR20 offers (I switched late last year and have been downloading CE's since the Santa days).


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## JMCecil (Jan 20, 2007)

kmill14 said:


> 5. Sound Effects (it actually does help me to know if I screwed up or did something)


The HR20 has a sound effect if a mistake is made. Not sure if that's what you are refering to. But there is an option to turn on audio feedback.


> 6. Reliable Season Pass feature that stores pass recorded show info to avoid duplication
> 8. Record only on channels I get


OH YEAH!!! Channels I Get. I know they are starting to role this out. But, one of the major confusing parts of getting used to an HR20 was not knowing which channel a search was going to record off of easily.

And, of course the meta-data again. Keeping the history without keeping the freaking recording$$$$$ Without proper meta-data it's almost useless to use anything but the "Both" option and clean up manually all the time.

Good catches.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Personally I like the feel and reach of buttons on the hr20 remote better, maybe because they are bigger. I alwasy found Tivo remote a little weird to use. Seems somethings are a stretch of the finger that is uncomfortable. 

But mostly I think its a matter of getting used to either one of them, becoming familiar with the remote is more key than anything I think. 

I do agree with some that Tivo's UI seemed a bit more intuitivie, but you can do more with HR20 and that necessarily means a bit more complex, therefore less intuitive. 

I still use both, R10 in the bedroom, HR20 in the living room, and I honestly don't feel that either stands out hugely. Its pretty much a wash IMO.


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## vankai (Jan 22, 2007)

OK Earl, I just asked my wife which system was easier to use and why.

It's not the interface for her. She was watching a show yesterday when the dog 'accidentally' hit the remote, there was a channel change and all heck broke loose because she lost a good portion of what she was watching on that buffer. I again explained to her the DLB issue, or lack thereof. I will not repeat what was said after that concerning D*. Bottom Line, DLB would've kept the dog inside. <and that's the last time I'll tell her "but earl says we just have to record what we are watching, simple"

I also explained to her that "Earl insists that it is not for financial reasons that D* does not have DLB". She quickly replied that obviously the TV gods are telling D* not to put it in for their attempt at financial benefits.

Now, Earl, for my benefit and others, could you please explain on behalf of your close ties with D*, why they refuse to 'turn on' DLB? so I can in turn explain to my wife, who want's to know the truth without any skirting around the answer. 

I trust her intuition more. She doesn't care about the techno speak of DLB, but she knows she wants it. I'm not even going to bring up her thoughts on some shows she says did not record properly.

Feel free to move this out of the Interface question to the I want my DLB area or I want consistent recordings area, or delete if you like.

Cheers.......


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

HolmesCo said:


> Personally I like the feel and reach of buttons on the hr20 remote better, maybe because they are bigger. I alwasy found Tivo remote a little weird to use. Seems somethings are a stretch of the finger that is uncomfortable.


Don't take offense, but REALLY?

The trickplay buttons on the HR-20 are all the way at the BOTTOM of the remote. My wife had to 2-hand the thing to keep it steady. The Tivo trick-play buttons are right where they should be....in the middle of the remote.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

While there are numerous reasons here are reasons 1, 2, and 3.










This guide ROCKS!!!
I absolutely hate the HR20 guide with only 6 channels, 1.5 hours and a truncated episode description.

This Tivo guide shows 8 channels at once with 1 time slot for 7 of them and 8 timeslots for one of them. It's extremely easy (and fast) to move through the channels or timeslots. Finally there is more episode description.

The workaround on the HR20 is better than nothing but it's a joke in comparision.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

redfiver said:


> How can you talk about "Using" the system and not stay away from features? I understand staying away from features that weren't available when the unit was new (such as DoD, as it's brand new and not available for everyone), but things like DLB are features that made the HR10 better than the HR20, but the menu speed is a thing that makes the HR20 better than the HR10.


The question isn't which one is better... we have other threads for that...
I am targeted one "generic" reason that people kept posting in those thread... one was easier to "use" then the other...

Because a feature like TiVo2Go... DoD... Media Share...
Doesn't make the unit more "easier to use"... sure it gives you more options.

Even DLB, I would argue... doesn't make it "easier" to use... it allows you to do something else.


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## bradfjoh (Jul 18, 2007)

I think there are a couple of things from a user perspective that are not intuitive about the D* interface. I've only used it since the end of July and had a tivo type for since about 2000, so I do have more experience with Tivo.

Better:
One button recording.
Better conflict resolution. You can decide which of the two programs to stop recording.
30 Second fwd button.
Speed

Worse:
A couple of things that I had to ask around or on this website.. Things that I do not think are intuitive.

1. How to skip to the tick marks or the end of a show or the beginning of a show.
2. Not knowing how to delete a show, sometimes it's the dash, othertimes you have to hit stop and go down.
3. Not knowing if the buffer is still going to be there when you leave a page to watch a recording or whatever.
4. How to modify season pass priorities. I find it odd that I have to go to List then Yellow button and then down arrow a couple of times to get there. There might be an easier way, but I haven't discovered it yet and really isn't that what this list is for. 
5. 50 Season Pass Limit. My wife has shows, I have shows and both my kids have shows... I think it's crazy that my wife can't record all her shows.
6. I think, at times, it can be difficult to figure out which channel you should set the Season Pass to.
7. The Guide, the Guide, the Guide. The TIVO guide is about 100x better than the HR20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

vankai said:


> OK Earl, I just asked my wife which system was easier to use and why.
> 
> It's not the interface for her. She was watching a show yesterday when the dog 'accidentally' hit the remote, there was a channel change and all heck broke loose because she lost a good portion of what she was watching on that buffer. I again explained to her the DLB issue, or lack thereof. I will not repeat what was said after that concerning D*. Bottom Line, DLB would've kept the dog inside. <and that's the last time I'll tell her "but earl says we just have to record what we are watching, simple"
> 
> ...


1) Even with DLB... if the dog steps on the remote of the TiVo... wouldn't it lose the buffer on the primary channel?

2) If it was "financial".. then why isn't it blocked on recorded content?

3) No... I can't tell you. (just like I have stated countless times in the countless number of other threads on the topic)

So yes.. if you want to continue the conversation on it, see my posts in all the other DLB threads... as the answer is still going to be the same.


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## raw121 (Jul 18, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The big thing to me that makes the DIRECTV interface easier is the speed. I always hated certain parts of the TiVo interface because of that (can you say "Season Pass?").


Isn't this more of an hardware issue more than one of the UI? If you put the TiVo interface on more responsive hardware how much would that change your opinion?

Right now I am hating the HR20-100 interface, but that has more do with the unresponsive RF remote than the interface itself. I am going to have to reserve my judgment until I get that straightened out.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> While there are numerous reasons here are reasons 1, 2, and 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to admit that does look pretty cool. What is the 'workaround' for the HR20?
How come I don' have that guide on my R10?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

HolmesCo said:


> I have to admit that does look pretty cool. What is the 'workaround' for the HR20?
> How come I don' have that guide on my R10?


As for how to get this on a Tivo: While in the Guide, hit the Info button on your remote and set the Guide Style option to "Tivo Style Guide" or "List Guide".

The workaround on the HR20 is to highlight the channel number in the guide and press info.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, I must repeat it.
#1 for me is the lack of DLB. I am smart enough to get around it, but you asked.
#2 Trickplay and slow-mo, skip to tick, and FF & RW functions were not flawless, but very easy to get used to. The HR20 has come a long way, but until they get rid of the press and hold it may never work out right.
#3 The method for setting recordings, and searching for programs was easier. I know it took quite some time to figure out the menus and how they worked. I still find it cumbersome. We have the advantage of this forum for tricks and help.
#4 Temperature for the 700. Having to buy an after market fan to keep a computer cool is not cool.
#5 The noise of the HR20 is annoying also. 

#1 advantage for the HR20 is the RF remote feature
#2 Blue lights are better than the tivo lights


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## tonyoci (Oct 15, 2006)

It's funny because I've never noticed so many of the things people list as issues, no heat, no noise, BACK button gets you out of everything the same way left arrow did etc. etc.

At a high level

For DirecTV HR20
* One touch recording
* Buttons mostly do the same thing on every screen (which as listed as an advantage of TIVO above but I don't agree)
* Preview window stays active when browsing menu's

For DirecTIVO
* THE GUIDE THE GUIDE (the work around is not remotely the same thing)


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now I have used just about every incarnation of TiVo... up to the Series 3 line. This include's DTivos and SA-TiVos.
> 
> In the thread that I posted:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103400
> ...


The only thing i miss about the HR10 is the guide. Nothing else.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

My first instinctive reply was simply "it just is"... but that's probably too simple.

First of all, I want to say that I personally don't mind the remote (sure, trying to use the RF function on a -100 sucked, but now that I have a -700, that works fine). Yes, it's no TiVo remote (and the TiVo Series 3 remote is even better than the DirecTV remotes), but I think it's fine. The only issues I really have with it are the DVR buttons (stop and pause being the worst) which are horribly laid out, and absence of a decent skip to tick/bookmark button. Perhaps DirecTV can later update it so that one of the color buttons can be used to do this function. After saying all this, I'm not sure why we are talking about the remote, as I was under the impression that we were talking about the DirecTV/TiVo software?



Earl Bonovich said:


> Even DLB, I would argue... doesn't make it "easier" to use... it allows you to do something else.


I have yet to gripe on these message boards about the lack of DLB, though I do sometimes miss it... and I understand your point, but I disagree. Anytime you have to do a workaround to get the same desired effect, I think it should count.

A few points I agreed with:



SolidState said:


> Like Doug says, the Now Playing list on the HR10 is MUCH easier to use. I like having my playlist sorted how I want(A-Z, delete by date, recorded date, etc.), with my "foldered" shows appearing in chronological order within their folders. Why does the HR20 only allow A-Z or chronological but no mixture?
> 
> The "TiVo" guide on the HR10's is far, far more user-friendly than the HR20's guide. I like being able to browse the listings and view several hours for each channel (when highlighted) WITHOUT having to hit INFO (what a pain on the HR20).





JMCecil said:


> The main things about the TIVO interface that I thought work better are:
> 1) Much more/better/accurate meta-data for searching/recording. This is by a wide margin. The HR20 meta-data is rudimentary at best. EDIT SO THAT IT FITS EARLS THEME: To me the process for creating recordings by search is by far superior/faster/easier.
> 
> 2) The amount of data available on the guide is far superior. I would prefer 4 hours, but 3 as an absolute minimum. The HR20 has a tremendous amount of wasted space in the UI. The font does not need to be 10 inches tall (ok, I exagerate, but it is unecessarily large).
> ...


All that being said, I feel the HR20 has improved since I got it only a few short months ago... and a lot since it came out.

~Alan


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## thebarge (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) Even with DLB... if the dog steps on the remote of the TiVo... wouldn't it lose the buffer on the primary channel?


Yep. I've done this many times. I'm behind about 20 minutes on a non-recording channel and I accidentally lean over and the channel button gets pressed and I lose whatever amount I was behind.

If it's being recorded it switches you to the other tuner and changes the channel. If both tuners are recording you get the "Are you sure you want to do this?" message.

I should be able to chime in more on-topic to this thread when my HR20 gets installed tomorrow (or I'll be crazy out of my head when the installer calls to tell me he's not coming like they did with my HR10 install).


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Ken S said:


> 2. Slow Motion is really non-intuitive to use well on the HR20 because it requires you to rewind to a point three seconds before where you want to start the slow motion.


Slow motion (as well as the other "press and hold" functions) is a glaring example of how bad the D* UI design team was/is. When they start with some really dumb design decisions for no apparent reason other than to just do it different (but worse) than Tivo, I completely lose faith that we will ever get basic flaws in the UI fixed. Just the way the closed captioning is turned on/off shows that the UI designers are rank amateurs who seem to have zero education in the basics of correctly designing and implementing a UI. D* needs to hire someone to oversee the high level UI design who is actually qualified to do so.


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## raw121 (Jul 18, 2007)

tonyoci said:


> It's funny because I've never noticed so many of the things people list as issues, no heat, no noise, BACK button gets you out of everything the same way left arrow did etc. etc.
> 
> At a high level
> 
> ...


Yes the back button does the same function as the left arrow, but which one is easier to find without looking at the remote?

I'm not sure that saying the buttons do mostly the same thing on every screen is very high praise. Which buttons perform different on the TiVo in different screens?

I will agree that having the preview window active can be a good thing, but it has also caused me to see the end of something taping that I was not ready to see. Wasn't able to get to the pause key fast enough. TiVo's ability to pause the buffer while you are in the menu covers this mostly.

I haven't seen it mentioned here but the 90 minute buffer is a big plus in the hr20's favor. Now if we could just have two of them and be able to easily jump around in them


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I'm purposely not reading beyond the opening post so I can add my thoughts.

*What Makes the TiVo UI Better?*

*Trick Play* on TiVo is easier regarding jump to start/end of buffer and to next/prev tick mark. There's no irritating and annoying press-and-hold like on the HR20, and there are no tricks to learn for the HR20 if I'm using a universal remote.
*Buffer Pause Points* are remembered in the live buffer while watching something else from the playlist.
There are more *types of searches*: category search, for example, comes to mind.
*Save to VCR* disables all on-screen displays, making it convenient when dumping content to DVD.
*List Guide* - makes it very convenient to *quickly* see what's on the current channel AND switch to the next channel to quickly see what's on in the next 3 to 6 hour window with very few keystrokes.
*Reprioritizing using Channel Up/Down* to quickly move a season pass up or down a full screen is very convenient. Of course, the downfall is that leaving the season pass manager means you have to wait for 5 to 20 minutes for the changes to be saved.
*Information* - TiVo has more program information, including the original air date, actor/director information, and even category available on-screen when INFO is pressed.

*What Makes the HR20 UI Better?*

*Speed, speed, speed.* With guide navigation, menu pop-ups, prioritizer, etc.
The *90 minute buffer *fits my lifestyle better - love being able to pause on a channel and go walk the dog, chat with the neighbotrs, etc., and come back home 45 minutes later and hit play
Having the *Picture-in-Graphics* available no matter what I do (except signal strengths) makes it easy to check my To Do List, re-prioritize series links, search the guide, run searches by keyword, navigate VOD, etc.
*Slip* - Yes, I was an early hater of SLIP, but I've grown to love it and am now annoyed when I skip on TiVo, because I usually have missed sometihng and need to rewind. With SLIP I can stop the slip early because I can see what I'm slipping past.
*Group Play* - not an option on TiVo
*Default Recording options* - I love being able to specify FIRST RUN, KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and have all future series links set to use these optons.
*Two-click series links* - blows TiVo away with the ease of setting up series links.
*Media Share* - Music and videos without hacking. (Compared to DIRECTV receivers with TiVo serice, not to Stand-Alone TiVo recorders.)
*Interactive features* - not available on DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service.

For me, just having the first four options on the HR20 list above blows away the entire list of benefits the TiVo has, but there are my reasons ...


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## ampman337 (Aug 24, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> While there are numerous reasons here are reasons 1, 2, and 3.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a long time tivo user, having just gotten my HR20 recently I do miss this. (not as much as I miss DLB) 
I have to say though it took awhile, I've become comfortable with the UI.


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## HolmesCo (Dec 4, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> As for how to get this on a Tivo: While in the Guide, hit the Info button on your remote and set the Guide Style option to "Tivo Style Guide" or "List Guide".
> 
> The workaround on the HR20 is to highlight the channel number in the guide and press info.


ah ok thx. I was aware of both those things, but had forgotten. I sue the Hr20 thing to decide what I want to record from hbo, starz etc. go thru it a week at a time and hit R for anything i want. A bit tedious but gets the job done anyway.


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## hoopsbwc34 (Aug 13, 2002)

I don't think you'll get your answers Earl, because IMHO, to really get at the usability issues, you need to be someone who doesn't post on these boards. My parents are a good example... love the Tivo not the HR20.

To be useable you almost have to walk someone through what is going on... make it so easy to figure out where they are and what they want to do that there is no question of what is going to happen next. For example, recording. One touch recording is great for me on the HR20, but for someone who isn't used to going through a ton of menus (and has some built-in ability like we do to understand where that menu should be) how do I pad the show a few mintues? When I hit record on the Tivo, from that menu I get a walk through that allows me to just record, or change options and pad the show.... I get to see what those options are right there... I don't have to go and find them later. Or if I want I get a walk through on setting a season pass right there, no button combination to remember (press record twice for a Series Link).

Another example is Keep Until I Delete... The Tivo, stops recording news shows but doesn't delete the old ones. HR20 deletes it when I reach my max assuming I want to not miss new shows... while that may be true, that's not what "keep until I delete" means (just translating the english not reading anything else into it) Again, not saying which is functionally better.

I think a lot of what people are talking about here are options and features... little things we like or don't like about one or the other. What usability really means to me is simplicity... that doesn't mean less options (I can got an hack the Tivo to do a lot of things extra, but my parents don't have to worry about that). Making it very easy and intuitive to someone who isn't a computer expert to do the main stuff is what makes it usable. 

Sometimes it feels like the HR20 was designed by computer programers, and the Tivo interface was designed by someone who just liked TV...


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Drew2k said:


> *What Makes the HR20 UI Better?*
> 
> *Speed, speed, speed.* With guide navigation, menu pop-ups, prioritizer, etc.


I know a lot of people have said that the HR20 is faster, but with the exception of "Season Pass Manager"/"Prioritizor", I've always found the TiVo to be faster. Not by much, but some...



hoopsbwc34 said:


> I don't think you'll get your answers Earl, because IMHO, to really get at the usability issues, you need to be someone who doesn't post on these boards. My parents are a good example... love the Tivo not the HR20.


With DirecTV launching SD-LIL in my DMA soon, my grandmother may be about to switch over to the HR20 so she can get the SD-LIL, and I'm not looking forward to it. While my Grandmother is fairly technically savvy (she has her own blog), when it comes to TV equipment, she's sometimes clueless, but she was using the TiVo in no time flat. My Mom, who is more technically savvy... very really, though again, uninterested in TV equipment picked up how to use a TiVo as fast as anything. She plans to do without the SD-LIL instead of replacing her TiVo.



hoopsbwc34 said:


> Sometimes it feels like the HR20 was designed by computer programers, and the Tivo was interface was designed by someone who just liked
> TV...


TOTAL AGREEMENT!!

~Alan


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## dscott72 (Jan 9, 2007)

Let me first say that I have only had an HR20-100 for one week and an HR10-250 for over a year, but other DirecTv Tivo's since the beginning.

Miss the DLB, would love to have it, hope they are working on it, but would rather have all HD channels.

Remote on the HR20 just taking a bit to get used to. So far no complaints, but from what I read I don't like that the 15 min skip on playback is missing.

UI is fine on both, but if an MPEG 4 DirecTv/Tivo was available, I would probably get one after a while.

Recording shows is ok on both, each one has their own quirks. Haven't tried many search features yet, so can't really comment on that.

I do miss the Tivo guide option, would love that on the HR20.

On/Off is much easier with just one button to push to turn on and off as opposed to having to go throught he menu to turn the Tivo into standby.

Like the recording space available feature on the HR20.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> I don't think you'll get your answers Earl, because IMHO, to really get at the usability issues, you need to be someone who doesn't post on these boards. << SNIP >>
> Sometimes it feels like the HR20 was designed by computer programers, and the Tivo was interface was designed by someone who just liked TV...


Sorry about the snip hoops! You just typed a finger full and the bottom line, I think, for many of we dual users is in your last line. Nothing else I've read in the long time I've lurked and the short time I've been a member has quite captured the TIVO vs HR20 argument more accurately...

*...it feels like the HR20 was designed by computer programmers
and
the Tivo was interface was designed by someone who just liked TV... *​.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

OK... after reading through the rest of this thread, hoopsbwc34 has caused me to change my answer slightly!

I prefer the HR20 UI to the Tivo... As so many have pointed out, the speed which everything runs is night and day over my old Tivos. I love being able to set my defaults and set up a series link with two clicks of the record button!

Personally, I prefer the HR20 remote to the Tivo remote simply because of it's size. While the common complaint seems to be that it's big and bulky, I find the Tivo peanut remote to be too small for my hands. My poor fat fingers are always hitting the wrong buttons - especially now that the Tivo has been relegated to the bedroom and we're watching it in the evening before bed with the lights turned down... so I can't see what I'm doing anyway and trying to do it by feel... The HR20 remote took a little getting used to as far as location of the buttons, but now that I know where they are - and it's the machine I use most frequently - I feel much more comfortable using it than the other...

HOWEVER... after reading through this, hoopsbwc34 makes a good point. The HR20 did take a little more learning to figure out where things are. My wife is semi-technical, and she doesn't really want to do anything on the HR20. My mother-in-law, on the other hand, is NOT at all technical... But we bought them a SA Tivo a couple of years ago, and she hasn't had any problems working through it.

I HATE juggling through a dozen screens to set up a recording. For her, though, it's perfect... That sort of simplicity is fantastic for her, and it drives me up the wall nuts!! 

So, Earl, to answer your question, I think the "UI Excuse" comes down to which side of the fence you come down on that particular issue. Do you want your DVR to hold your hand through every process, or do you want your DVR to "back off" and let you do it all. I prefer the HR20's hands off approach, while my mother in law would most certainly prefer the hand holding.


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## erhan (Aug 28, 2007)

I define "ease of use" as a factor of how much the UI/System guides the user as opposed to just dumps you a whole bunch of features/functions to chose from. It's also a factor of how much information you need to process and the decision tree you have to go through to go to the next step.

If you step back and look at the general UI philosophy, HR20 has very full screens where the end user is left to navigate to the various controls, figure out the next best step and use various "shortcuts" with the use of colored buttons. Tivo UI, on the other hand, is always in "guide" mode where the user is given natural choices of the next step and the default selection is almost always the most natural one. 

Many people have commented on the speed of single-click record and two-click season pass. An end user needs to learn/know the double-click, whereas on a Tivo when I click the record button I can get to season passes (which also guides me through the steps as opposed to HR20 UI where the user has to navigate to the buttons/fields) or just click again to simply record once. If you are a power user, you can definitely take advantage of the HR20 much better. This applies to all UI design, not just Tivo or HR20. (I happen to work in UI design, so have some experience with this stuff).

If you want to reach a larger audience, who never really read user guides and still make it a successful UI, "guidance" is mandatory. That's why many web sites and products offer wizards as opposed to a dump of all available options. Same concept applies to surveys where you go a step by step as opposed to 100 questions on one screen with a progress train. (that and the fact that the survey are a bit more dynamic these days require that, but you get the point).

Bottom line, 90% of the audience would find Tivo UI easier to navigate (less info to process, more guidance, better defaults) compared to HR20 (fewer screens, targeted more toward power users, no guidance). After the learning curve, it's a different story but the first impressions will always last.


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## Nighty (Sep 4, 2007)

Here's a couple of quick things off the top of my head. 

For me, it all about the Remote. For TiVo, you know you always hit the TiVo button to get the top level menu, and then navigate from there.

For the HR20, you hit List to get to "Now playing", or Menu for setup items, etc...

I find it hard to use the two sets of controls on the HR20, the top ones for playback control, and the lower ones for navigating the menus and such.

I like the TiVo guide better than HR20 Grid guide. Not sure why, maybe it's just that I am used to it...


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## dchamero (Feb 27, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> [*]*Default Recording options* - I love being able to specify FIRST RUN, KEEP UNTIL I DELETE and have all future series links set to use these optons.


I completely missed that, and I can't find it. Can you please tell me how you change the *default *recording options???

Thanks


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I always felt that the Tivo interface was something that you had to learn to use -- and since we all had it first, we learned it and became comfortable with it. But it was still a learning experience. Also, the remote was better organized so that while holding it in one hand, you could reach most buttons needed without moving your hand. 

But as soon as I started using the HR20 interface, everything fell into place. I was using a computer and the logic was comparable to any other computer I had used, so I didn't really have to learn anything. That was the way it should have been. The remote is clearly not designed for easy one hand operation -- keys just aren't grouped right (I could explain how to easily fix the problem, but that's a remote design issue, not an interface issue). 

I think most people have two problems with the HR20. 1) They had to use it differently and, if they weren't already a computer user, that logic didn't apply. 2) The remote, though a separate issue, is tied to use of the interface and causes that negative to be cast as an interface issue. 

On the additional plus side of the HR20, everything (including the remote) can be improved, there are many simpler operations and most problems are a software change away from resolution (for example, the CC access, Menu revisions, etc.). And finally, there has never been a product (let alone DVR) that has gotten the prompt and attentive response to customer input that the HR20 has. Aside from any problems, this is what has caused an almost complete turnaround in customer attitude on this Forum and for most HR20 customers like Joe Sixpack.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> The big thing to me that makes the DIRECTV interface easier is the speed. I always hated certain parts of the TiVo interface because of that (can you say "Season Pass?").


Can you say "Press & Hold"?  /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> I'm purposely not reading beyond the opening post so I can add my thoughts.
> 
> *What Makes the TiVo UI Better?*
> 
> ...


I generally agree with Drew's observations, though I will say that Speed was no longer an issue for me once I finally got the 6.x update. Ya the HR20 is still faster, but the 6.x DirecTivo was fast enough. Unlike before, Season's Passes were setting up within seconds for me.

Like Drew, I sorely miss the TiVo-style GUIDE as well.

And of course there's the Peanut. To this day, I still haven't found a remote that feels as good in my hand, or has such responsive tactile feedback. And I've tried about every universal that's out there. /steve


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I have and still use both HR10 and HR20 on a daily basis, and there is nothing I like better on the tivo, especially the guide. I hate the one guide everyone here seems to love. Sorry. I hate both remotes, I use an MX-850 for both. The only place I see the tivo having an advantage right now is in the searches and program info, and that will continue to get better on the HR20 over time, as it has with the most recent ce, so I really can't make a final judgment about that at this time. I have to go through multiple screens to get to the to do list of season pass manager on a tivo, just as I do on an HR20, so I don't see that as a difference, other than I can hit a button that I've already memorized to get there instead of being forced to navigate a msnu on the tivo. And of course, no one is complaining about speed on the HR20 in comparison to the HR10. As for dlb, its a great feature, for the one or two hours a week I might actually watch live tv. The other 100 hours are all recorded programs anyway, so, oh well. In the end, I think its all about how you use your machine and your own personal preferences, but I can say that most of the features and gui enhancements that I would like to see on the HR20 are not things I would steal from a tivo, but from the other dvr's out there that were truly better than tivo could ever be ... (anyone here ever use a ultimate tv, or easily the best machine I've ever owned, a replayTV?


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## Leftcoastdave (Apr 2, 2004)

Since you asked... 

1. The Tivo remote can have up to (IIRC) 7 IR codes, the HR20 remote only 2 forcing a 3rd HR20 unit to RF, useless when you haev a universal remote that is IR only.

2. Tivo Shortcuts. Love them. No such quick access on HR20
a. Tivo 1 ==> Season Pass Mgr
b. Tivo 2 ==> To Do List
c. Tivo 3 ==> Wishlists

3. No HR20 Wishlist. On the HR20 I have to reengage a successful prior search to check to see if non autorecord items are coming up. Simple Example -- I search periodically for Virginia Tech sporting events using Tivo Wishlists. Tivo3/select and go.

4. Hate HR20 need to list/yellow to see to do list. I want direct access to the to do list from a color button such as the underutilized blue button.

5. Ergonomics of the remote are awful. I finally bought a Harmony 720 so I could standardize cruise control on the lower half of the remote.

6. Dislike confusion between "back" and "exit". Multiple exits throw you out of a playback so if not a recording, the buffer is blown. You are screwed if watching a live sporting event on a delayed basis..

7. Wasted real estate on most if not all of the HR20 screens. Too much HTML whereas the Tivo has uncluttered line items and colored buttons.

8. Weak info in program guide. One great Tivo feature is the ability to see original play date on guide entries. That is the best way to determine if a program is a repeat or not.

9. I hate mandatory groupings. I prefer to watch in chron order, the wife likes groupings. At least with the Tivo you can turn groups on or off.

10. Search results on the HR 20 drive me nuts. If I go to the trouble to set up custom guides, I do NOT want to get search results returned for channels I do not get.

11. I despise the 27-30 second slide, instead of an actual 30 second jump. The ff video is distracting. I want an option to blank the video so I don't see it when skipping.

12. Menu panels are boring. Any pro design artist will tell you to avoid mixing font sizes and colors as it is fatigues the eyes. Non standard menus keep popping up at strange times. Example: If I hit menu I get one result showing favorites in the 3rd or fourth position. If I am inside a sub menu and I hit menu again, Favorites is often down in the 7th position.

13. Why must I click list/yellow/arrow/arrow etc to get to Prioritizer. Give me direct menu access to items like Prioritizer, To Do, etc. See my first comment on short cuts which can be quickly learned. Example: Blue1 ->List, Blue2->To Do, Blue 3->Prioritizer... you get the idea.

14. I like the fact that the left arrow acts as a backspace key when searching for shows. It saves time if you want to search multiple titles without having to go back and delete, especially if you make a typo.

15. I don't like having to wait 24 hours while the guide repops itself following a reset. Newly installed or recently reset units are not very useable for searches following an RBR or a CE.

I have owned Replays, Tivo's and now HR20's. There is a lot to like about the HR20, but there are also a lot of improvements that could be made as evidenced by the ever growing list I have seen in this thread. 

That is all...


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> To be useable you almost have to walk someone through what is going on... make it so easy to figure out where they are and what they want to do that there is no question of what is going to happen next. For example, recording. One touch recording is great for me on the HR20, but for someone who isn't used to going through a ton of menus (and has some built-in ability like we do to understand where that menu should be) how do I pad the show a few mintues? When I hit record on the Tivo, from that menu I get a walk through that allows me to just record, or change options and pad the show.... I get to see what those options are right there... I don't have to go and find them later. Or if I want I get a walk through on setting a season pass right there, no button combination to remember (press record twice for a Series Link).


I think hoops is on the right track here. With the Tivo interface, there is is one way to get to each function, or very limited multiple ways. You go to main menu, select high level functional categories there. You drill down into each menu until you perform the desired function. If you read each menu, you will eventually find each option. (While there may be options that aren't in an obvioius place, the vast majority are obvious.) This makes the user feel like they know how do do everything on the system. Therefore, they think it is an easy interface.

The HR20's interface is set up differently. While it does have a menu, you can get to functions other ways as well. (For example, you can get to the ToDo list from the Playlist.) This makes the interface more flexible. However, it doesn't necessarily make people think of it as more intuitive.

Another example of this is the context sensitive menu items. While they are powerful, unless you know that these items are there, it may not occur to you that these options exist. It never occured to me to press menu on the record series screen until I read here that that's where the recording defaults were. This makes people feel that options are hidden or missing, not easy and intuitive.

I have a saying that when it comes to response time, perception is reality. If the user thinks it takes too long, it takes too long. It doesn't matter what the clock says. The same principle applies ease of use. If people think something is easy, it is easy. It wouldn't matter if you have objective data showing that it took longer to learn than something else.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm sorry, boss, I can't help ya. 

Maybe I have a preternatural gift for understanding user interfaces, but I find neither the TiVo interface nor the DIRECTV interface particularly difficult. 

If you're asking which interface will let me get to the business of watching and recording television faster and easier, DIRECTV would have to win out, with the picture-in-guide, 1-touch record, 2-touch series link, and instant prioritizer sorting. 

If you're saying which interface has more friendly features designed for the first-time user, I would have to guess TiVo, mostly because the interface is controlled by the vastly superior TiVo peanut remote. 

If you're asking what I would rather be doing, using TiVo or using a DIRECTV-branded receiver... I'd have to reply that I'd rather be watching TV. That's my bottom line.


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

richlife said:


> I always felt that the Tivo interface was something that you had to learn to use -- and since we all had it first, we learned it and became comfortable with it. But it was still a learning experience.


Whenever we first got a TiVo, I never bothered to learn to use it, I simply used it.

Whenever I got a HR20, I had to learn to use it... which required reading of the FAQs on DBSTalk.com... as the book wasn't much help, and the instinctiveness of the TiVo just wasn't there. In the last two days, I learned several new things about how to use the HR20... I'm sure there is still more to learn...

~Alan


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

DogLover said:


> I have a saying that when it comes to response time, perception is reality. If the user thinks it takes too long, it takes too long. It doesn't matter what the clock says. The same principle applies ease of use. If people think something is easy, it is easy. It wouldn't matter if you have objective data showing that it took longer to learn than something else.


Well said, *DL*. I've spent a lot of years managing/consulting UI developers for some major software application companies and some heavily-trafficked web sites. Based on my experience with user focus groups, truer words were never spoken.

Apple, e.g., is a classic example of a company who's mantra is "perception is reality". The guys at TiVo borrowed a page from their book, IMO. Too bad they can't come up with a viable business model.  /steve


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## Alan Gordon (Jun 7, 2004)

Leftcoastdave said:


> 8. Weak info in program guide. One great Tivo feature is the ability to see original play date on guide entries. That is the best way to determine if a program is a repeat or not.


While this is one of my most critical issues with the HR20 (no way to save searches being the other), even the DirecTiVos have their issues compared to the stand-alone units.

Not only do they list original play dates, they offer put what season and what episode number on the list. Whereas the DirecTiVo might have the regular cast of a series and perhaps a guest star or two, the stand-alones might list ALL the guest stars. I've seen movies with 30 people listed on my stand-alones...

Hopefully DirecTV can get around to offering this on the HR20... SOON!!

~Alan


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Alan Gordon said:


> While this is one of my most critical issues with the HR20 (no way to save searches being the other), even the DirecTiVos have their issues compared to the stand-alone units.
> 
> Not only do they list original play dates, they offer put what season and what episode number on the list. Whereas the DirecTiVo might have the regular cast of a series and perhaps a guest star or two, the stand-alones might list ALL the guest stars. I've seen movies with 30 people listed on my stand-alones...
> 
> ...


Original air date was awesome with the HR10 (my only TiVo). It would be great if that came to the HR20. I keep looking at "2007" and I don't know if that's this season or last season.


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## Jafo350 (May 26, 2007)

1. Tivo Live Guide is much easier to use and much more informative, more channels and more hours on screen
2. Wishlist: type in the name of a program and set it to record even if it is'nt in the guide
3. Now Playing List : pick a show, watch and delete, when you go back to the list you are right where you left off, not back at the very top like on the HR20
4. Dual Live Buffers: and both can be paused. Then when you go back to the show it is still paused if you didnt run out of buffer 
5. Remote: on the HR20 registers far too many double button presses
6. Skip to tick/ Skip to end
7. Season pass list: Tivo nedded 2 button presses to get to this screen HR20 about 7 button presses from live TV
8. Tivo remote worked the volume on my stereo. The HR20 does'nt have a code that works properly, last I checked
9. Info: Tivo gives more info in the guide and about each show 
10. Slow motion: Tivo has a button for this
11. Search: Tivo only searches for shows on the Channels I Get


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## waporvare (Sep 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The question isn't which one is better... we have other threads for that...
> I am targeted one "generic" reason that people kept posting in those thread... one was easier to "use" then the other...
> 
> Because a feature like TiVo2Go... DoD... Media Share...
> ...


I think the argument about DLB not making it easier would be a losing argument on your part. It makes it much easier to watch two programs at once without having to record both. For sports fans that's a huge plus as it doesn't take up any recording space. Heck, at this point I'd be happy if you could just get SLB working right. Nothing more irritating than going to a recorded program for a second and then going back to a live channel only to find the buffer is gone.

See, all that is easier on the tivo, because it freaking works.


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## homerdodge (Sep 9, 2007)

I've had various models of Tivos since the first standalone unit was introduced, and every version of the integrated DirecTv-Tivos since the first of these was introduced, up through the HR10-250, now retired in our home.

The HR10-250 was certainly the most troubled child of the family, but for purely quality issues, many of which I didn't experience but many other people did.

The HR20-700 is fine in my opinion. Yes it's different, but in terms of design some things are better and some things are not as good. I'm not referring to what I'll call quality issues like shows not getting recorded. Those aren't by design of course and will get fixed, hopefully sooner rather than later. 

Luckily I haven't experienced much of that except where an autorecord series link records a channel we don't receive. Design-wise, there needs to be a way to exempt channels from the autorecord, and I'm not aware of a way to do that. Of course you can get rid of the autorecod link and have discrete links for each channel you can get the show on (e.g., Antiques Roadshow on one or another PBS station). 

The one thing that drives me nuts though is that managing Series Links is a pain in the ass. In the Tivo, you went to the main menu, selected the Select Programs to Record(?) option (good lord I'm starting to forget the actual names already) and selected manage Season Passes. Once there you could add/change/delete/reprioritize any season pass. Yes, reprioritizing is slow in Tivos, as it reassesses shows in real time when you move a pass up or down. 

In the HR20, the only way I know to get to the Series Links is to get to the ToDo list through the List button. Not very intuitive. 

If a show you want to modify the series link for is in the ToDo list, great, select the show and then select Rec. Ser. on the left menu. You can make your changes to the series link for that show or cancel it, but you can't reprioritize here. 

If there is no show on the todo list, then you have to select Prioritizer, to access the complete list of series links, where you can reprioritize them, quickly.

If there are episodes scheduled for a link in the Prioritizer, you can select the link and then you can select Rec. Series on the left menu, where you can then change or cancel the link.

If there are no episides scheduled for that link, you cannot select it to change it. All you can do is reprioritize it or delete it. Not necessarily what you want to do, for shows that are just on hiatus or off-season. 

So, the overarching problem here, for me, is that there are too many places you have to go to do everything you may want to do with a Series Link, and getting to the links is counter-intuitieve to start with. 

Having come from a PTV-upgrade HR10-250, I do miss being able to relatively quickly download ty files to my PC and transcoding and burning the shows offline to DVDs. So, it's back to recording on a DVD recorder connected to the HR20, which requires playing the show in its entirety, tieing up the HR20.


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## tyke (Aug 20, 2007)

I believe the Tivo interface is much more simple to use than the HR20. It seems that the HR20 has too much stuff available in the primary menus and some thing that should be there are not. My 3 year old figured out how to play show on the tivo, now he is 5 and is still struggling with the HR20 interface. With the Tivo he could hit the DirecTV button twice, arrow down to his show and hit play. With the HR20 I have put a sticker on the list button, but he still struggles with finding his show. It could be that there is so much more on the screen now. Let me tell you that at 6AM on a weekend having to get up and play a show for him is a major downer.


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## uscboy (Sep 5, 2006)

homerdodge said:


> Having come from a PTV-upgrade HR10-250, I do miss being able to relatively quickly download ty files to my PC and transcoding and burning the shows offline to DVDs. So, it's back to recording on a DVD recorder connected to the HR20, which requires playing the show in its entirety, tieing up the HR20.


Not to mention that you cannot do that with any HD recordings, you can only 
capture an SD version realistically.

I'm 100% against signal theft when it comes to D* hacking, but I wish they'd 
lighten up on the encryption on the HR20 recordings. Have to say I'd get an 
eSATA drive tomorrow if I could hook it up to my computer and transfer 
recordings. Didn't they get the memo from Steve Jobs and Amazon? DRM is so 
yesterday... heh.

Between the more intuitive menu system, which has been summed up well by 
others in this thread, and the ability to transfer and archive shows, Tivo wins in 
my book. Especially since an updated Tivo would be faster and look better, 
something lot of the folks voting No are failing to realize - they're making it an HR20 
versus HR10-250 thing and it wouldn't be like that.


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## homerdodge (Sep 9, 2007)

Sorry, forgot to mention DLB. Gotta have dual-live buffers. There are times, such as when you have a show that ends after a series link cut off time, when that would come in handy. 

With a Tivo, if you were on one tuner, and a show was being recorded by a Season Pass on the other tuner, and the show ended late so that the Pass didn't catch the last few minutes, and if you happended to notice that within the next 30 minutes and nothing else caused that tuner to change channels, you had the chance to switch to that tuner and capture or watch that last few minutes. 

Or sometimes, you would want to simply change to the other tuner to catch something it just happended to be on it, perhaps on a channel that tuner was on because of a prior scheduled recording, and you'd be able to record that show, at least going back for the last 30 minutes and going forward. 

Channels like Discovery, History, etc. have many shows that might prove interesting and let's face it, you can't spend hours studying the guide to see what's on all the stations out there. Sometimes there's stuff you run across by chance, when you have two independent tuners you can see, select and control. 

So, basically, it's for those serendipitous situations, where you just chance on something, rather than the planned recordings that we can of course pre-schedule in the HR20. 

And sometime, you just want to pause the show you're watching, quickly switch to the other tuner to check some other channel and go back quickly without having to screw around with first recording the current channel so you can switch the other tuner, and then having to stop the recording if you want to change to something else or don't want that show preserved. 

With Tivos we often would look at the banner to see what was on the other tuner without actually switching to that tuner, thereby not interrupting the current show we were viewing.

It's just convenient to have dual live buffers. Yes, are we surviving without it, but we could also survive without a DVR, perish the thought. We don't want the expense and inconvenience of multiple DVRs in the one room; Not a very practical alternative.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I can certainly see the validity of some of the other posters talking about how you can point the remote at the TiVo and just follow on-screen prompts to get something done, but IMHO, that was done at the expense of actually watching either live TV or a recording. Everything on TiVo is setup like a Wizard, which is great for newbies, but you have to stop watching something in order to actually do something on TiVo, whether it's searching, checking To Do, managing season passes, or whatever. 

I will admit that if you get the HR20 and never read the manual, you will be "behind" right out of the box, because some things ARE hard to find. For example, before DIRECTV added the RED=DELETE option to the To Do list, I had no clue to go to "Rec. Once" to cancel the upcoming recording. 

Also, who would know from the screen that there's an option to set Recording Defaults? To set defaults, you have to be on either the "Rec. Once..." or "Rec. Series..." screen and hit MENU. Then choose "Record Defaults" and go through an awkward menu of individual items.

Is there room for improvement on the HR20? Certainly, just as I think the TiVo interface could be improved.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dchamero said:


> I completely missed that, and I can't find it. Can you please tell me how you change the *default *recording options???
> 
> Thanks


Press SELECT on any future program in the guide to get to the Info screen. Choose either "Rec. Once" or "Rec. Series". Then press MENU and select "Record Defaults" from there.


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## dchamero (Feb 27, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Press SELECT on any future program in the guide to get to the Info screen. Choose either "Rec. Once" or "Rec. Series". Then press MENU and select "Record Defaults" from there.


Wow, that's what I call an awkwardly hidden option.... it should be part of the main SETUP... anyway...

Thank you for the hint!!!!


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

dchamero said:


> Wow, that's what I call an awkwardly hidden option.... it should be part of the main SETUP... anyway...
> 
> Thank you for the hint!!!!


Your welcome. The key is actually to be on any Record Once or Record Series screen, and using the guide to get there is only one of many ways. I do agree that it's an obscure setting that is not readily apparent, and in the past I've posted suggestions for moving this to the Setup or adding it on the Scheduler screen, where the rest of the recording menu items are located...


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I learned the DirecTV interface before I learned the Tivo interface. As a result, I have found the DirecTV interface to be more familiar, and therefore easier for me to use.

I have only had one Tivo based device (an R10 DirecTivo), and I only had that active for about six months. Because everything else I had was DirecTV interface, I personally found keeping the Tivo active and having to really stop and think about what I was doing every time I went to use it, just didn't work for me.

So my R10 with six months total usage on it is sitting on the shelf.

Carl


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Bottom line from the new user standpoint, 

When I first got my Hr10-250 tivo, I briefly browsed the manual and started playing.

When I first got my HR20, I got so frustrated I started searching for answers on the internet and found this forum. Thank goodness.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Press SELECT on any future program in the guide to get to the Info screen. Choose either "Rec. Once" or "Rec. Series". Then press MENU and select "Record Defaults" from there.


Just another example of the grossly incompetent UI design engineers and the horrendous mistakes their lack of education with regards to UI design has produced. Who the fvck comes up with the idea of implementing a hidden setup option like that????????? I'm going to keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face..... D* needs to hire an AI design engineer who actually has the proper education and experience in human factors engineering/UI design theory and techniques to oversee the UI design. This POS UI obviously was and continues to be designed by people completely unqualified to do so.


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## marksman (Dec 23, 2006)

I have not used the Series 3 TiVo, but all incarnations up to them.

For me the DirecTV is more intuitive then the older ones is easier to use because first of all you can do EVERYTHING while watching television. We are doing this on a tv, where the primary goal is to watch TV. The older Tivos all had you spend WAY too much time going back to a non-tv environment to do things. It was always jolting.

Recording programs is also infinitely easier in the HR20. A single button click on the guide and your program is good to go. Two clicks and you have a season pass. Conflict resolution is much easier as well.

It is just much easier to be patient with the HR20 because you can always be listening/watching. Going into sort season passes on the TiVo eventually just became a no-go waste of time for me.

Both devices have numerous short cuts, but the HR20 has done a much better job of documenting many of the short cuts in the interface itself. TiVo essentially did not hint to any of their short cuts in the actual UI. Also it is nice having a bar that tells you how much space you have used. Probably the single dumbest thing TiVo fought against adding for years and years.

Being a TiVo owner since 1999, and a huge fan of their products, I have a hard time of coming up with any interface features I really miss from the TiVo to the HR20. Probably the only one is the grid style guide. I really liked the guide. That guide with the HR20 one / two touch record and conflict resolution would be the best of both worlds.


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## dvisthe (May 27, 2007)

Took me a while to get used to The Directv interface, But I like it 100 times better than the Tivo interface now.

But I just miss the information, like *the original air date!*


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

I would say that while in some ways the HR20 is a better at watching shows already recorded, Tivo is by far a better tv viewing experience in general.

Things that the tivo has, such as better remote, better gui and interface (opinion), and the ability to swap back and forth between turners make it better, in my opinion, to actually watch TV in real time.

I often find myself waiting until after a show records before I'll even go watch it, whereas on my old tivo I would go right away and watch it.


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## wisem10 (Aug 17, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread for me as both a HR10 / HR20 owner and a professional usability engineer (yah, it's a real job).

In the original post Earl posed a question regarding the ease of use the respective DVR's. He also mentioned the intuitiveness of the UI's. I think that there is often a muddling of these two terms, as evidenced by many of the replies, not to mention the confounding of *usable *with other variables. For example, as a metric usability is a different variable than performance (i.e., how fast the system responds), capability (i.e., functions available), and reliability (e.g., how frequently is a recording missed). Now all of these affect the overall user experience, but are different variables.

Usability is typically measured in terms of the number of recoverable errors and critical errors (i.e., not able to recover) are observed while a user is trying to complete tasks with a system. From a strict usability perspective here are are a few areas in which the Tivo UI has better usability that the HR20, IMO.

1. The navigation is more straightforward with the Tivo; having a single main menu from which the majority of the system's options are accessed is a simpler, more streamlined interaction that minimizes user error.

2. In general, the Tivo provides better feedback than the HR 20. With the Tivo for most every action, there is verbose feedback / confirmation that is provided to the end user. For example, while people (me included) like the HR20's one click to record and two click to set a SL function this action does not provide good visual feedback nor, in the case of SL, is this an intuitive action. With the Tivo the user is presented with a screen that contains text describing the options that are available (record / set Season pass), while the HR20 shows a small red dot at the top of the screen for one click (which is easy to miss - and only moderately intuitive) and shows the multi red dots for a two click / SL which is not in the least bit intuitive. Is it simpler, *once you know how to do it*? Yes. Is it more *intuitive*? Absolutely not.

3. Remote control usage is simpler with the Tivo. With the Tivo, virtually every function can be accessed using five buttons on the remote (Tivo/DirecTV, up, down, left, right, select). This is mostly due to the way that navigation is set up (see #1). But, more importantly, there are no core views that have to be accessed using completely non-intuitive and arbitrary buttons (i.e., the yellow button to access the to-do list).

That said, I do like my HR20, and do appreciate the improved performance, faster access to items through short cuts, and added features (caller ID / picture in guide). I also think that with some changes the HR20 can have a very good user experience that comes close to the Tivo's.

Just my two cents, I apologize for having wasted 10 minutes of your life that you'll never get back. 

Mark


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## 2000voltz (Sep 21, 2007)

I think the real key to this is who had what unit "first" I think change is a bigger issue than anyone whats to give it credit. I had a E* dvr before the tivo and I never real got adjusted to the tivo and now the HR20 is so much more similiar (but improved) to my "first" dvr I feel more comfortable with it.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I will not get teh HR20s until this weekend, but I would say in general that it is much easier to use a DVR to watch your shows when it actually records those shows. 

In truth, I never used the TiVo style guide and based on what I am reading here it seems like I will like the HR20 menu system just fine.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Just another example of the grossly incompetent UI design engineers and the horrendous mistakes their lack of education with regards to UI design has produced. Who the fvck comes up with the idea of implementing a hidden setup option like that????????? I'm going to keep repeating it until I'm blue in the face..... D* needs to hire an AI design engineer who actually has the proper education and experience in human factors engineering/UI design theory and techniques to oversee the UI design. This POS UI obviously was and continues to be designed by people completely unqualified to do so.


So having the Recording Defaults.... available in the RECORDING menu, while in the screen that you setup your Recordings....

Vs... back in a SETUP screen, that you can't get to, while in the Recording screen...

Is *** ed.... it isn't hidden...

But the manual does LACK in a lot of areas, where things like this particular one... could easily be corrected in.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

wisem10 said:


> Just my two cents, I apologize for having wasted 10 minutes of your life that you'll never get back.
> 
> Mark


It was only three minutes - I read quickly. 

You make excellent points, however, and hopefully DIRECTV takes these comments to heart. I've been a proponent from the beginning of adding more instructions on screen, especially regarding use of the color buttons. I also think there need to be instructions on screen when the menu has items that appear only for the current screen. For example, there are different context-sensitive menu options on the following screens, but you'd never know that unless you hit MENU while in one of the screens: Playlist, Search, Guide. Add a simple instruction like "Press MENU for more options on this screen." and DIRECTV will go a long way towards improving usability.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

2000voltz said:


> I think the real key to this is who had what unit "first"


Very true. I used to know someone who said no word processor would ever measure up to the first one she learned, which was kludgy and confusing by today's standards but it's what she learned. Same person looked critically at any new video game system and pronounced every one a failure because it would not play "Burger Time".

The title of the thread is "easier to use" and I think it's fair to have that discussion, but the question is, "easier to use for whom"? The person who has had 3 minutes to look at the DVR or the person who uses it every day?

TiVo has a very shallow learning curve and it welcomes in the uninitiated. Armophob and others are right to point out how you can use it easily with under 5 minutes' commitment.

However, in my opinion the DIRECTV interface is more powerful, and more powerful programs require more commitment. Is the learning curve steeper, maybe. But new HR20s come with a very nice quick start guide that can help get the user up and running quickly. FWIW the DIRECTV R10's user manual was just about as confusing as the HR20's... and the only reason it was more accurate was that the R10 never, ever, got any new features.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So having the Recording Defaults.... available in the RECORDING menu, while in the screen that you setup your Recordings....


Well that's only partially true. Most people don't realize the QUICK MENU is context-sensitive.

Anyway, I'd expect to see it in SETUP, RECORD OPTIONS, since it's a global option, and not specific to that recording. All global options should be found under SETUP, IMO

Same with PLAYLIST sort options. I know now they are on the "PLAYLIST version" of the QUICK MENU, but I always have to think twice about where to go. My first instinct would be to go to SETUP, PLAYLIST.

Just my .02. /steve


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> For example, there are different context-sensitive menu options on the following screens, but you'd never know that unless you hit MENU while in one of the screens: Playlist, Search, Guide. Add a simple instruction like "Press MENU for more options on this screen." and DIRECTV will go a long way towards improving usability.





Stuart Sweet said:


> However, in my opinion the DIRECTV interface is more powerful, and more powerful programs require more commitment. Is the learning curve steeper, maybe. But new HR20s come with a very nice quick start guide that can help get the user up and running quickly.


A fine line between adding instruction, and making a "DVR for Dummies". I prefer less instruction and "hand holding" confirmation screens. Get me to where I want to go, so I can get back to watching my programs.

I hope D* focuses on (also considered a TiVo UI positive)
(a) improving/adding to the guide/program info
(b) refining their version of the grid guide
(c) improving the trick play functions - particularly slow motion and skip to tick.
(d) Channels I get - greatly improving the search function
(e) new remote development

Dislike the TiVo suggestions, hacks and superfluous graphics.

I prefer the slip for the reasons Drew2K mentioned.


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## Strejcek (Sep 28, 2006)

While I too find neither interface super stellar, I'll point out what I _*personally *_like about each interface.

As far as system setup settings, I would have to say the Tivo interface is better organized. For example, when you go into the video setup screen on the Tivo, you are offered all video settings as opposed to the DTV setup, where you have to go to two different places to make your video changes. So, IMHO, Tivo gets the "thumbs up" there.

As far as the ability to better control and make system changes, I too would have to give the nod to Tivo. In order to make phone dial up changes on the HR20 you have to access a hidden menu, Tivo offers the option via standard menu options. Tivo's channel settings are also better organized. From their channel setup menu you are able to modify all your satellite and off air channels from one area, as opposed to DTV's UI which requires you to go into the Sat & Ant setup to access and change your OTA channels. Then DTV makes you go to your favorites to change them. Tivo offers the ability to make all those changes from one place. Tivo most certainaly gets the "thumbs up" for offering the ability to scan for off air in channels and CIR.

As far as the Guide is concerned, I would give the nod to DTV's guide. Although it could use some work and polishing, it is quicker than Tivo's and scheduling recordings from the guide is much easier than Tivo, especially when creating a series link, hitting the record twice is much easier and QUICKER than Tivo's series pass options. DTV's UI also gets the nod as far as the play list, series link prioritizer, and speed. DTV's UI also gets the nod as far as PIG. I hate not seeing or hearing the TV when you go into menu screens with the TIVO.

So IMHO, as far as menu settings and the ability to make system changes Tivo wins hands down. Their menus are better organized and make more sense than DTV's GUI.

As far as guide speed, ease of setting up recordings and series links, play list access, and general organization of your recordings and to do list, DTV wins hands down.

As far as feature sets, both have their strengths and weaknesses. After having and using the HR20 for over a year now, if I were given the option at this moment of choosing between the HR10 and HR20 I would choose the HR20. A year ago, the HR10 would have been my choice DVR. But given the changes and improvements DTV has made with the HR20, it is much easier to use but still has a long way to go.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

MikeR said:


> I hope D* focuses on (also considered a TiVo UI positive)
> (a) improving/adding to the guide/program info
> (b) refining their version of the grid guide
> (c) improving the trick play functions - particularly slow motion and skip to tick.
> ...


I agree, and...

(a) I REALLY agree
(b) not as interesting to me, but I see your point
(c) since there is no MPEG4 TiVo it's not fair to compare the two. I find the trickplay on SDs roughly the same. If you're talking about the press-and-hold remote features, I heartily agree. 
(d) this is rolling out now. 
(e) OH YEAH!!!! Said it before, I want DIRECTV to designate codes for slow, skip-to-tick, 1-button CC, etc. for use in a future home theatre remote (which I hope they develop) In the meantime, send the codes to Logitech, Philips, and other home theatre remote manufacturers.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I agree, and...
> (c) since there is no MPEG4 TiVo it's not fair to compare the two. I find the trickplay on SDs roughly the same. If you're _*talking about the press-and-hold remote features*_, I heartily agree.


Thanks for the clarification Stuart. That is what I was implying with my poor engineering english.

I also believe this is one factor that some do not take into account when comparing UI. MPEG4/HD/multiple sound formats add to the complexity.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Very true. I used to know someone who said no word processor would ever measure up to the first one she learned, which was kludgy and confusing by today's standards but it's what she learned.


I generally agree with you here. I often quote the same example... about the first Word Processor you've learned being the one you measure any new one by. But I have found that sentiment is only relevant for initial impressions. Generally after someone has lived with the new application on a day to day basis for a while, that feeling wanes and the new app soon becomes that person's new standard.

That's the case for me and the HR20. I haven't touched a TiVo since March and I use the HR20's an average of 2 hours a day. My ideal DVR would be a hybrid of the two, of course, cherry-pickling the best features of both.

My biggest gripes with the HR20 right now are all potentially fixable by D*: the feeling of "unreliability" due to the recent spate of missed-recordings, which I'm sure will get resolved soon, now that D* is aware of the extent of the issue; anemic SEARCH/AUTORECORD capability and abbreviated GUIDE data; inability to PAUSE the LIVE buffer and return to it from a recording; and less than rock-solid trick play (Press-hold unreliable, stacked ADVANCES running too long, etc.)

* I just want a rock-solid, reliable TV search, recording and playback machine!* I could care less about "frills" like the ACTIVE CHANNEL, VOD, MRV, interactive programs and networked audio/image playback. IMO, these are all dead-weight features that are complicating and distracting D* from building the best TV-viewing box out there. I'm probably being generous by estimating that less than 25% of the HR20 user-base will use any one of these "frills" except to try them once, so why penalize the 75% who just want a dedicated search, record, playback machine by making it more complicated and unreliable?

Just my .02. /steve


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Just as an FYI....I rarely ever use the colored buttons. I have a Harmony remote, so they are programmed up on the top section, but I never seem to have a need for them. It could also be said that its not always obvious when I could or should use them.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Steve said:


> * I just want a rock-solid, reliable TV search, recording and playback machine!*
> Just my .02. /steve


A stinking MEN.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Please... :backtotop

Regarding what makes either-or easier to use, then the other.

If you want to vent about some of the issues for either product... start a new thread.


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## wisem10 (Aug 17, 2006)

MikeR said:


> A fine line between adding instruction, and making a "DVR for Dummies". I prefer less instruction and "hand holding" confirmation screens. Get me to where I want to go, so I can get back to watching my programs.


In many cases there is a trade off. However, with well a thought out interaction model it is possible to design a system that can sufficiently accommodate the needs and learning curve of both neophytes / technophobes and the early adopter / technogeeks (like me). A simple example: within most any Word processor you can copy selected text by choosing File > Copy from the menu. This is the more "intuitive", yet step intensive action. This faster, yet not intuitive action is to use Ctrl-C.

The fact is that the majority of the people in these forums are more of the technogeek variety, while the majority of the population are certainly not (witness the super long lines at a movie theater ticket window while a nearby kiosk has no one using it).

I'm pretty confident that my 60 something year old mother could sit down and start using the Tivo almost immediately, however she would likely give up on the HR20. Also, a friend of mine who is quite intelligent but does not have the patience or desire to read through forums like these, or play around with his DVR to figure it out, owns an HR20. He had no idea that he could set custom channels, and I have to go over to his house later today to show him how to make other changes to the DVR.

Not to mention there is often a different mental model (i.e., what is / isn't intuitive) between users with different backgrounds and perspectives on design. There was a published research study (Human Factors journal circa 1980's), in which engineers, psychologists, and "housewives" were shown a diagram of a four burner stove with four unlabeled control knobs along the front. Each groups was asked to label the knobs according to which burner that they would expect it to control. On average, within each of the three groups they had the same label scheme, but between the groups they were different.

To accurately assess the usability of the HR20, Tivo, or any consumer device or software is to find a representative sample of users and observe them as they work through a set of frequent and / or important tasks.

I'm not even sure where I was going with this post.  But since I already invested too many keystrokes into it, I'll post it anyway. (Too much coffee and time on my hands today.)

- Mark


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

I agree that the D* interface is faster. That doesn't make it easier to use.

For me it boils down to the ability to use the device without ever looking at a manual. I picked up the Tivo remote some 7-8 years ago and started using it without the aid of a manual or having to hunt around for things, the menu hierarchy was simple and intuitive to navigate. Now granted I may be "trained" on Tivo, but there have been a couple of things on my HR20 that after I found buried in a menu, I've commented "what on earth posessed them to put that there."

I think the D* interface is good, but it's not as well refined. It would be better if the push and hold mechanism went away and if they fixed half a dozen items on the wish list (especially going back to the point in 'my playlist' where you last were instead of always going to the top, grrr...).


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Drew2k said:


> Press SELECT on any future program in the guide to get to the Info screen. Choose either "Rec. Once" or "Rec. Series". Then press MENU and select "Record Defaults" from there.


But how does one actually *set* the defaults? Every time I set up a Series Link, I have to change the options to what I want them.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Lord Vader said:


> But how does one actually *set* the defaults? Every time I set up a Series Link, I have to change the options to what I want them.


When in the full screen Record screen (Aka via Record Series, Or Record Once)

Hit Menu... there is an option for Recording defaults.
Change your Defaults...


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Thanks. I'll give that a shot.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

Alan Gordon said:


> Whenever we first got a TiVo, I never bothered to learn to use it, I simply used it.


There were a few things I had to learn with TiVo, not all specific to TiVo, some pertain to DVRs in general:

1) TiVo can't anticipate when a Sporting event will end, you need to pad the recording. Found that out with the first MNF game I recorded.

2) If the Guide data for a certain show is insufficient, TiVo records every airing of that show.

3) The networks don't care if you miss the last few minutes of a show, so once again, you need to pad.

4) The interface to the integrated TiVo DIRECTV unit is different from the standard receiver and the folks who hadn't seen the TiVo interface before having the unit installed had to learn to adjust.

In short, I don't believe there's a device on the market that doesn't require some learning in order to use to their maximum efficiency and capability.


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## CTJon (Feb 5, 2007)

Been stated before but if you're counting answers.

1) The remote - definately not intuitive in places - to get a "to do" list you have to press list then the yellow button (how would someone without a manual or a guide figure that out) and if there is another way I don't know it.

2) Some of the processes you can go back from, some you have to exit and some you have to go over and scroll down to done. I know improvements have been made but make it consistant and do the exit or back.

3) The size and amount of shows shown in the guide. 1.5 hours and the few lines is too few. Or make it an option to show more.

4) -- to delete - I guess this goes in item 2 but be serious.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

CTJon said:


> 1) The remote - definately not intuitive in places - to get a "to do" list you have to press list then the yellow button (how would someone without a manual or a guide figure that out) and if there is another way I don't know it.


Umm... on the bottom of your MyPlaylist, there is a YELLOW button icon, with the words ToDo list next to it...



CTJon said:


> 4) -- to delete - I guess this goes in item 2 but be serious.


As noted in other places, this has already been changed...
On the HR20 and now the R15 platform... pretty sure the HR20 changes are already national... if not they will be in the next national release..
(Oh, and those are also on the bottom of the respective screens with a RED Button icon, with the word DELETE next to it)


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## wisem10 (Aug 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... on the bottom of your MyPlaylist, there is a YELLOW button icon, with the words ToDo list next to it...


I think that the point is that there is nothing intuitively obvious about a yellow button taking a user to the To-do list from the List view. Just because there is instructional text at the bottom, does not make it intuitive nor even easy to remember.

- Mark


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So having the Recording Defaults.... available in the RECORDING menu, while in the screen that you setup your Recordings....
> 
> Vs... back in a SETUP screen, that you can't get to, while in the Recording screen...
> 
> ...


It *IS* hidden. There is no way that the typical user would know it's there.

It's great to have a shortcut there to get to the default recording settings (in addition to also putting it under the setting menu where you would expect a "setting"), but if the UI was designed by someone even remotely qualified and experienced in UI design, there would at a minimum, text on that screen that says "Press Menu Button to Set Defaults for Future Recordings"...... What a concept!!!!!! Tell the user that an function is there and how to use it.... and without reading the manual. It's simple blunders like the above that tell me that the people making the UI design decisions have absolutely no qualifications to be doing so.

Here's my mantra.... D* needs to hire an experienced UI design engineer with the proper education and training in that field to oversee the UI design.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

wisem10 said:


> I think that the point is that there is nothing intuitively obvious about a yellow button taking a user to the To-do list from the List view. Just because there is instructional text at the bottom, does not make it intuitive nor even easy to remember.
> 
> - Mark


Umm... So hitting LIVE TV button twice, to toggle between tuners on the DirecTivo... is "intuitive"... ? Or TiVo-1 to go to one menu; TiVo-2 to go to another....

Sorry that instructions are on the screen... and that using it daily it doesn't get stored in the memory banks...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Jafo350 said:


> 1. Tivo Live Guide is much easier to use and much more informative, more channels and more hours on screen
> 2. Wishlist: type in the name of a program and set it to record even if it is'nt in the guide
> 3. Now Playing List : pick a show, watch and delete, when you go back to the list you are right where you left off, not back at the very top like on the HR20
> 4. Dual Live Buffers: and both can be paused. Then when you go back to the show it is still paused if you didnt run out of buffer
> ...


:up: :up: :up:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> It *IS* hidden. There is no way that the typical user would know it's there.
> 
> It's great to have a shortcut there to get to the default recording settings (in addition to also putting it under the setting menu where you would expect a "setting"), but if the UI was designed by someone even remotely qualified and experienced in UI design, there would at a minimum, text on that screen that says "Press Menu Button to Set Defaults for Future Recordings"...... What a concept!!!!!! Tell the user that an function is there and how to use it.... and without reading the manual. It's simple blunders like the above that tell me that the people making the UI design decisions have absolutely no qualifications to be doing so.
> 
> Here's my mantra.... D* needs to hire an experienced UI design engineer with the proper education and training in that field to oversee the UI design.


Fine it is hidden, because they don't have a full screen menu that provides you will every single possible option... so no one could possible miss it....

From this day forward: burn the manuals... no one should ever be expected to read the instructions on how to do something..... no more manuals. no more instructions...

Gosh forbid, that someone might have to look at the instructions for something.

Sorry... braking my own rule here.... back to more reasons on why one is easier/then the other....

I personally think it is EASIER to not clutter the screen with a full menu screen, and have context sensitive screens, based on where you are... but hey... that's me... and why I find it easier.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> Press SELECT on any future program in the guide to get to the Info screen. Choose either "Rec. Once" or "Rec. Series". Then press MENU and select "Record Defaults" from there.


Learned something new - and I've wanted this.

Way to hide it D* :down:


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

#1 Recommended thing, I will tell ANY new users of the HR20.

While you are getting used to the system.. hit menu every once and a while, so you can see all the options that are available to you.

There are a LOT of option in there, especially in MyPlaylist...

Maybe there should be a full size sheet of paper (the size of the box)...
With that statement... to help those that don't want to read the manual...


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> When in the full screen Record screen (Aka via Record Series, Or Record Once)
> 
> Hit Menu... there is an option for Recording defaults.
> Change your Defaults...


Earl, this is a perfect example of how I think HR-20 has complicated a number of processes. The Menu system to me is like a very bad Interactive Menu system you get when calling some customer service or another.

Who's going to know they can change these defaults if they don't read thru these forums in detail?


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## judson_west (Jun 15, 2006)

I feel there are a number of pluses to the TiVo interface:

1) Amount of information, relevant to what you are trying to do, displayed on the screen. For instance, the TiVo Guide has the most guide information, but even still the DirecTV guide (aka grid guide) has a lot of information displayed. I understand that the PIP is a WOW factor, but when I go to the guide, I want to see information.

2) The arrow buttons get you to almost any place within the UI and you rarely have to press the SELECT button. 


On the DirecTV side of the house, there are a couple of pluses there too:

1) Tabs. There are a number of areas that use tabs for displaying additional information/settings in groups. 

2) Pop-up windows. Where TiVo may have resorted to using a full screen to prompt you for information, DirecTV uses pop-up windows.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kmill14 said:


> Who's going to know they can change these defaults if they don't read thru these forums in detail?


Granted I am not a major fan of the manual, and do think it should be completely overhauled...
But it is there...

Page 37 of the manual...
Quick Menu over a Record Options screen:

And there is a reference to it earlier on on page 19:
One-Touch record with Defaults.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Any chance that they would add all the "defaults menus" to the setup menu? They could add one section just for all of these, that way they are all in one place..


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Fine it is hidden, because they don't have a full screen menu that provides you will every single possible option... so no one could possible miss it....
> 
> From this day forward: burn the manuals... no one should ever be expected to read the instructions on how to do something..... no more manuals. no more instructions...
> 
> ...


Earl, no offense intended but (my $.02) the comment under your name "I think like an engeneer" is the problem. The people doing the design on the HR20 don't seem to think like the people who will be using it. The folks that designed the Tivo UI do (at least more so).


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## msmith (Apr 23, 2002)

Sirshagg said:


> Earl, no offense intended but (my $.02) the comment under your name "I think like an engeneer" is the problem. The people doing the design on the HR20 don't seem to think like the people who will be using it. The folks that designed the Tivo UI do (at least more so).


This exactly matches my opinion.

I do computer applications software for a living. You can tell the difference between a program that was designed to be used by technical people and one designed to be used by Joe Average.

Intuition is entirely different for technical people than it is for regular people. Technical people expect menus to be organized by functional areas and I believe that non-technical people expect things to be more like "often used vs. setup". Technical people like efficient use of real estate - non-technical people prefer lots of "white" space.

The Tivo seems designed for Joe Average (and particularly for Jane Average), while the HR20 and the Directv Plus system in general seem designed by engineers for people who want feature-rich systems while accepting the occasional hiccup.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

I have used TiVo for years and the HR20 for 10 months. As far as ease of use I find both equal as far as navigation, TiVo an edge for trickplay(Damn whoever came up with press n' hold), HR20 an edge for speed.

I like the grid guide better, even on the TiVo. The Tivo guide blows as far as I'm concerned, if I'm surfing the guide I want to know whats on NOW, not in 6 hours, and not only for 1 channel, jeez.

BTW, I never knew about the recording defaults. That is big, I do have one suggestion, a default to put the new recording at the top priority.


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## raramaker (Dec 19, 2006)

I'll give you my top reasons TiVo has a better interface - although neither is perfect.

1) Single menu structure with one key access. This means I don't have to press all the keys on the remote to find a function (color buttons, LIST, MENU, GUIDE, etc). The keys are great as a short-cut, but not as separate menu structures.

2) Searching the guide. Despite the overall slowness of the TiVo system, it is still faster at scrolling thru the TiVo-style guide and letting me find a program to record. 

3) Wishlists/search still does not work well on the HR20. A category-only wishlist - not possible. Record all season premieres - not possible. Autorecord for an NFL team records NFL Sunday Ticket over the network game even though I don't get Sunday Ticket and the HR20 knows it.

4) 30-second slip (HR20) is much slower then 30-second skip (TiVo).


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tom_S said:


> BTW, I never knew about the recording defaults. That is big, I do have one suggestion, a default to put the new recording at the top priority.


FYI: That is how it is done on the R15... and one of the top disliked features of the system, when it was first released.

It has it at the bottom now on the HR20, and after the Series Link is set, you can go the prioritizer, highlight it and hit the YELLOW button (Which is noted on the bottom), to allow you to quickly jump it to the top.

If you think about it... how often, after your initial setup... you are finding new recordings that you want to trump your entire organized priortizer lineup ?


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It has it at the bottom now on the HR20, and after the Series Link is set, you can go the prioritizer, highlight it and hit the YELLOW button (Which is noted on the bottom), to allow you to quickly jump it to the top.


OK, I can live with that. I know on the TiVo when setting up a season pass after 1 of the many infuriating confirmation screens it asks to GET ALL of the episodes. This places it at the top priority. But I usually reorder my series links after setting up additional recordings, so I guess I can stay the way it is.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Tom_S said:


> I have used TiVo for years and the HR20 for 10 months. As far as ease of use I find both equal as far as navigation, TiVo an edge for trickplay(Damn whoever came up with press n' hold), HR20 an edge for speed.
> 
> I like the grid guide better, even on the TiVo. The Tivo guide blows as far as I'm concerned, if I'm surfing the guide I want to know whats on NOW, not in 6 hours, and not only for 1 channel, jeez.
> 
> BTW, I never knew about the recording defaults. That is big, I do have one suggestion, a default to put the new recording at the top priority.


Agree to point #1.

As far as the Guide, your statement points to why the TiVo UI is better in this area. TiVo gives the user the CHOICE of which Guide to use. There doesn't have to be a 'take it or leave it' approach. As Earl has said many times, he doesn't like the TiVo Guide, but using the TiVo UI he didn't have to. I will never like the Grid Guide employed on the HR20 or the TiVo, BUT I had the ability to change it, which mean't it was really a non-issue in my mind.

I've had the HR20 for over a year now and I never knew about the recording defaults. THAT is one of the reasons I prefer the TiVo interface. Most things are not hidden as much as they are on the HR20. This is why the GF will never like the HR20, too much to know and learn. The TiVo doesn't require this sort of time investment. And in reality this is the type of UI D* should be striving for because this brings a much wider audience to the DVR and more $$$ for D* IMO.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

If the HR20 didn't have vastly more capability than any DirecTivo I would agree with you but with great power comes great responsibility... er, responsibility for reading the manual. 

There are so many more features that a DIRECTV receiver has like active content, media sharing, On Demand (currently in testing), etc. and so many more ways of doing some of the common things, well at some point it justifies a time investment to learn how to do it. We all made a time investment going from yellow legal pads to Microsoft Word, and I make the same comparison.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

wisem10 said:


> I think that the point is that there is nothing intuitively obvious about a yellow button taking a user to the To-do list from the List view. Just because there is instructional text at the bottom, does not make it intuitive nor even easy to remember.
> 
> - Mark


Forget the onscreen instructions (LIST + YELLOW). TiVo has To Do list on a sub menu, and so does the HR20. MENU > Help & Settings > Scheduler > To Do List. Boom.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> If the HR20 didn't have vastly more capability than any DirecTivo I would agree with you but with great power comes great responsibility... er, responsibility for reading the manual.
> 
> There are so many more features that a DIRECTV receiver has like active content, media sharing, On Demand (currently in testing), etc. and so many more ways of doing some of the common things, well at some point it justifies a time investment to learn how to do it. We all made a time investment going from yellow legal pads to Microsoft Word, and I make the same comparison.


I would be curious to know how Tivo handled all these additional features on their stand alone boxes. My guess it didn't add significant layers of complexity to the menu system, as the HR-20 has.

I think the person who described the HR-20 as an engineer's design is spot on, where the Tivo is more of a Customer's design.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Forget the onscreen instructions (LIST + YELLOW). TiVo has To Do list on a sub menu, and so does the HR20. MENU > Help & Settings > Scheduler > To Do List. Boom.


But that helps make the point that others have made, think like an average user and ask what in the world is the "Scheduler" and the "To Do" list doing under "Help and Settings" - ie the same place I set up my screen display, check my sat signals etc.

Note - I do not know if Tivo was any better in bringing up the to do list, seems like it was also buried somewhere I wouldn't have expected but I haven't used it in quite a while so don't remember for sure.

My only othe complaints are anything involving "press and hold" on the remote and of course, the lack of DLBs, which because of the fact that I have to do some archaic workaround keep a buffer on two shows, makes Tivo easier to use.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

raott said:


> But that helps make the point that others have made, think like an average user and ask what in the world is the "Scheduler" and the "To Do" list doing under "Help and Settings" - ie the same place I set up my screen display, check my sat signals etc.


So if a user is "lost" looking for the To Do list and can't see the "YELLOW - To Do List " hint on the playlist, and they can't figure out how to get it and won't open the manual ... you're right - they probably would never choose the "Help" option on the menu. Because if they did, they would see "Scheduler". I can argue that putting Scheduler under Settings *is* appropriate, because when I set up a recording ... what was that? "Set up?" Yup ... it's a setting I made. Also, to say that "Scheduler" is not easily associated with "To Do" is a stretch.

(To correct one thing I didn't catch earlier - your display settings are actually one level down from the menu where Scheduler is located.)

As I said earlier, the big difference between UIs is that TiVo uses full screen menus for everything, obstructing the primary purpose of the DVR (to watch stuff), while DIRECTV places menus over what we're watching. That means DIRECTV is using shorter words, while TiVo uses almost complete sentences.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Forget the onscreen instructions (LIST + YELLOW). TiVo has To Do list on a sub menu, and so does the HR20. MENU > Help & Settings > Scheduler > To Do List. Boom.


No offense, but it makes no sense to me to have the "Scheduler" sub-menu under Help and Settings. To me, Help and Settings is for...Help and Settings.

Tivo > Menu > Pick Programs to Record > To Do List

That makes a lot more sense to me.


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## wisem10 (Aug 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... So hitting LIVE TV button twice, to toggle between tuners on the DirecTivo... is "intuitive"... ? Or TiVo-1 to go to one menu; TiVo-2 to go to another....
> 
> Sorry that instructions are on the screen... and that using it daily it doesn't get stored in the memory banks...


You're right, hitting the Live TV button to toggle between tuners is not intuitive. Nor is the arrow up (I think) to switch formats. I was not saying that the Tivo is completely intuitive, nor was I saying that the yellow button / to do is a bad design. I simple said that clicking on a yellow button from within the List is not intuitive (i.e., the yellow button provides no affordance that suggests this function; thus, no one would ever click on the yellow button if the instructions were not there).

I was simply trying to make an objective observations. I'm sorry if my comment offended.


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## Tom_S (Apr 9, 2002)

tiger2005 said:


> Most things are not hidden as much as they are on the HR20.


But some things are eh? In this case on the HR20 this was a little harder to find but obviously I didn't miss it much. Like I said and you concurred, the navigation is about equal.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> No offense, but it makes no sense to me to have the "Scheduler" sub-menu under Help and Settings. To me, Help and Settings is for...Help and Settings.
> 
> Tivo > Menu > Pick Programs to Record > To Do List
> 
> That makes a lot more sense to me.


See my post above ...

But what's the alternative? Add "Scheduler" to the top level menu? The top level menu will grow to be unusable ...


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> As I said earlier, the big difference between UIs is that TiVo uses full screen menus for everything, obstructing the primary purpose of the DVR (to watch stuff), while DIRECTV places menus over what we're watching. That means DIRECTV is using shorter words, while TiVo uses almost complete sentences.


Typically, when I am in a menu "doing stuff", and am not concentrating on "watching stuff". While Tivo's UI is not perfect, it does lean towards those that want it to be less complex. You can still do plenty with a Tivo interface without all the complicated menus.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> See my post above ...
> 
> But what's the alternative? Add "Scheduler" to the top level menu? The top level menu will grow to be unusable ...


I'm not at my TV...what is the complete list of items in the top level menu?

IF you want my vote, Scheduler should be one of those items.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

How about this for an idea?
add 2 tabs to list.. one for todo and one for prioritizer..
This would put them right in sight and easy to access...


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> So if a user is "lost" looking for the To Do list and can't see the "YELLOW - To Do List " hint on the playlist, and they can't figure out how to get it and won't open the manual ... you're right - they probably would never choose the "Help" option on the menu. Because if they did, they would see "Scheduler". I can argue that putting Scheduler under Settings *is* appropriate, because when I set up a recording ... what was that? "Set up?" Yup ... it's a setting I made. Also, to say that "Scheduler" is not easily associated with "To Do" is a stretch.
> 
> (To correct one thing I didn't catch earlier - your display settings are actually one level down from the menu where Scheduler is located.)
> 
> As I said earlier, the big difference between UIs is that TiVo uses full screen menus for everything, obstructing the primary purpose of the DVR (to watch stuff), while DIRECTV places menus over what we're watching. That means DIRECTV is using shorter words, while TiVo uses almost complete sentences.


Earl asked for things that make Tivo easier to used. IMO, that is something that can be changed. I gave my opinion, I wasn't looking for a debate on the issue or to be told why I'm misguided by thinking its not intuitive.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> I'm not at my TV...what is the complete list of items in the top level menu?
> 
> IF you want my vote, Scheduler should be one of those items.


That varies, because DIRECTV designed the top-level menu to be context sensitive, so it changes according to the feature in use, whether it's the guide, playlist, search screen, or live TV or a recording.

Unfortunately, I think we may be getting too far off-topic ...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

raott said:


> Earl asked for things that make Tivo easier to used. IMO, that is something that can be changed. I gave my opionion, I wasn't looking for a debate on the issue.


Correct...

I don't want to drag the thread down, by too much debate on people's reasoning....

Or "theroies" on how to make one better then the other...

So please... continue with explaining to "me" why one is easier to use then the other.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

houskamp said:


> How about this for an idea?
> add 2 tabs to list.. one for todo and one for prioritizer..
> This would put them right in sight and easy to access...


Good idea, but the prioritizer is different from the To Do list ... so you'd be up to 4 tabs.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Fine it is hidden, because they don't have a full screen menu that provides you will every single possible option... so no one could possible miss it....
> 
> From this day forward: burn the manuals... no one should ever be expected to read the instructions on how to do something..... no more manuals. no more instructions...
> 
> Gosh forbid, that someone might have to look at the instructions for something.


I hate to break it to you, but a properly designed UI doesn't require a user manual AND it doesn't require cluttered screens to explain everything either. That and other basic UI design concepts and principals are things that you (somewhat understandably) and the DirecTV UI designers (inexcusably) don't comprehend.

DirecTV's lack of qualified design engineers to oversee the design of the UI for their equipment is a huge blunder. The UI is part of their "advertising" that sells their service to the public. If it was correctly designed by people who are well qualified and educated in the science and art of proper UI design instead of the hit and miss approach that they get by having UI design decisions made by engineers completely unqualified to do so, the "advertising" value of a superior interface would far outweigh the cost of hiring the superior engineering talent required to achieve a superior interface.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> See my post above ...
> 
> But what's the alternative? Add "Scheduler" to the top level menu? The top level menu will grow to be unusable ...


Drew, I agree that not everything can be a top level menu. But on a DVR, I think 'Scheduler' is probably worthy of making the cut.


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## Paznos (Sep 27, 2007)

Well so far I miss my TiVo since it actually worked, since I got the HR20-100 a couple of weeks ago things that should be on my to do list aren't, and series that I've set up for a series link worked the first week but now they won't record unless I do it manually. 

Sigh


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

raott said:


> Earl asked for things that make Tivo easier to used. IMO, that is something that can be changed. I gave my opinion, I wasn't looking for a debate on the issue or to be told why I'm misguided by thinking its not intuitive.


Earl, I have learned some important points simply from reading this thread. I don't know how Comcast or other DVRs work, but I will say that the context sensitive menus on the HR20 are a challenge to overcome in the learning curve if coming from Tivo. Better explaining or highlighting that point would be something that would make the HR20 easier to use (for me at least). Perhaps our 'tivo survival guide to the HR20' should be ammended to draw more attention to this item.


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## markman07 (Dec 22, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> I hate to break it to you, but a properly designed UI doesn't require a user manual AND it doesn't require cluttered screens to explain everything either. That and other basic UI design concepts and principals are things that you (somewhat understandably) and the DirecTV UI designers (inexcusably) don't comprehend.
> 
> DirecTV's lack of qualified design engineers to oversee the design of the UI for their equipment is a huge blunder. The UI is part of their "advertising" that sells their service to the public. If it was correctly designed by people who are well qualified and educated in the science and art of proper UI design instead of the hit and miss approach that they get by having UI design decisions made by engineers completely unqualified to do so, the "advertising" value of a superior interface would far outweigh the cost of hiring the superior engineering talent required to achieve a superior interface.


+1 ..OH HELL +2 ...well put.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Granted I am not a major fan of the manual, and do think it should be completely overhauled...
> But it is there...
> 
> Page 37 of the manual...
> ...


Earl, all due respect, but the recording defaults are something that I should be able to run across as I traverse the help and settings menu as I am exploring the system after the installer is backing out of the driveway. That's one thing that would make the HR20 easier to use.


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## Halo (Jan 13, 2006)

One issue that hasn't yet been mentioned (amazingly):

*FRAME ADVANCE/ FRAME REVERSE* is still broken !
This is a primary trick play feature that was correctly implemented on the UTV, Tivo and even the R15. It continues to be an utterly useless feature on the HR20.

I watch quite a bit of sports and many of the plays need to be seen one frame at a time. For instance, the instant the ball carrier loses a fumble, or the instant the first baseman touches the bag.

Normally I would use *FRAME ADVANCE* (pause,fast forward) to advance each frame and then to see the play again you go (pause, rewind) to back up frame by frame. This works great on the other systems, but on the HR20 the *FRAME REVERSE* (pause,rewind) will jump back *60 FRAMES* (or sometimes just 15 frames) back instead of 1 single frame like with the UTV, Tivo or R15.

So, after jumping back 60 frames (2 full seconds) I would have to press FRAME ADVANCE (pause,fast forward) 60 times to get back to the play in question!
Are you kidding me?

Please record the HDnet test channel with the clock on screen to test this out. The FRAME REVERSE function is even worse with mpeg-4 channels because it actually jumps *forward* before it jumps back 2 seconds.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

I am going to try and respond to your question without reading too much of this thread. So if i repeat what others say- so sorry!

*For TIVO:
*
I think there really is some credibility to saying the Tivo "just is" easier to use. I think the reason this statement is valid is because it takes little thought to get the Tivo to do what you want it to do. A few button presses, and you can find whatever it is you are looking for - whether or not you even know you are looking for it.

The HR20, while more feature rich, and much (thank god) faster, takes a bit more thought to figure out where you are going. This goes especially for newbie's but even now for me, after more than a year, I still find myself trying to remember, or figure out how to do something.

I prefer the TIVO guide as well. Where I can select one channel and see all the shows in the near future on the right. I like that the feature is there on the HR20 (press info on channel and you get a list) but it is klunky and slow.

*For HR20*

Now when it comes to setting up a season pass on the other hand, I LOVE the HR20. It was a brilliant idea that all I have to do is hit record twice. But again, thats something you have to "know". Its not something that just makes sense. The first time I pick up an HR20 remote there is no reason I should think to hit record twice to get a season pass. But once I do know it, it rocks!

I like the quick filtering feature on the guide, though all I use it for is HD. And I like how responsive D* has been to improving the UI based on feedback. But it still needs work.

I do really like the PIG feature on the HR20 as well. Thats big over the TIVO UI.

*Which one?
*
If Tivo figures out how to make trick play with MPEG 4 as good as it is on their SA units, then the TIVO is going to have some even bigger advantages over the HR20. As far as the over all UI - I prefer the TIVO layout, but really like some of the HR20 features in the UI.

As for overall features. Well DLB is huge for me, suggestions, wishlists, etc. Tivo is just better on that front. The question becomes are those features more important than HD? (no) VOD? (perhaps-probably not) Music and photos? (if they worked on the HR20 - i would care.) If I get a DirecTivo with HomeMedia...

*What it comes down too...*

D* and Tivo should sit down and take all the best features of the HR20 and insert them into a new improved (FASTER) Tivo OS. (if they don't improve the speed, forget it - I'll keep the hr20.)

-They can use the color scheme from the HR20 to make it look more like a D* OS. 
-Use the PIG.
-Add VOD, HomeMedia
-Add two touch Season Pass setup.

A marriage of the two would be perfect.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Thaedron said:


> Earl, all due respect, but the recording defaults are something that I should be able to run across as I traverse the help and settings menu as I am exploring the system after the installer is backing out of the driveway. That's one thing that would make the HR20 easier to use.


Why? How often do you change your defaults?

Again... maybe they just need to redo the manual... with the top 10 things to first do when you activate your receiver: (Setup your display, Setup your Audio options, Setup your Default record settings)...


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Correct...
> 
> I don't want to drag the thread down, by too much debate on people's reasoning....
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but UI design is a science that requires a formal education in the "theories" of that science, so the way to "make it better" is for D* to start by hiring a person to oversee the design as a whole who actually has the education, experience, and qualifications to hold that position. The reason that the HR20 interface is not easier to use than some others is that the UI design decisions have clearly not been made by people qualified to be making such decisions.

Listing every little thing that the current design team has done wrong (like having basic settings screens that nobody would ever find without reading the manual) will accomplish little or nothing without D* first hiring qualified engineers who are educated in UI design theory, especially when you have people here (equally ignorant about proper UI design) responding by chiming in with defenses and denials of the basic design blunders that are pointed out.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> That varies, because DIRECTV designed the top-level menu to be context sensitive, so it changes according to the feature in use, whether it's the guide, playlist, search screen, or live TV or a recording.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think we may be getting too far off-topic ...


I don't think this is off topic at all. I am (as I see others are too) not totally understanding what can and cannot be done with the HR-20, and that in itself is an issue very relevant to this topic.

Imagine if Earl had not started this topic...we wouldn't know how to change the default settings for recordings. And how many people on here are glued to this board and fanatic about their DVR and TV watching??? Crazy!

While Tivo's interface did have some "hidden" items, traversing the menus was not an exercise in memory skills. "Now where is THAT screen again?"

Like I said earlier, I don't use the yellow, red, green or blue buttons very often because I use a Harmony remote. The programmable buttons on top of the remote are my least used buttons, and the colored buttons are on a seperate menu all together. Those things just make it too complicated for normal viewing habits. (in my humble opinion)


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> I'm sorry, but UI design is a science that requires a formal education in the "theories" of that science, so the way to "make it better" is for D* to start by hiring a person to oversee the design as a whole who actually has the education, experience, and qualifications to hold that position. The reason that the HR20 interface is not easier to use than some others is that the UI design decisions have clearly not been made by people qualified to be making such decisions.
> 
> Listing every little thing that the current design team has done wrong (like having basic settings screens that nobody would ever find without reading the manual) will accomplish little or nothing without D* first hiring qualified engineers who are educated in UI design theory, especially when you have people here (equally ignorant about proper UI design) responding by chiming in with defenses and denials of the basic design blunders that are pointed out.


So everyone's "theories" of the science/art of UI design match? 
And you know for a fact that they don't have such people on their staff?


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

I've said this before but...

Tivo is like Apple OS X

HR20 is like Windows

And anyone who's sat down with both computers for more that 10 minutes will tell you that OS X has by far a better interface and is more intuitive to use.

Maybe not everyone would *prefer* to use it over Windows, but most who tried it would acknowledge it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kmill14 said:


> While Tivo's interface did have some "hidden" items, traversing the menus was not an exercise in memory skills. "Now where is THAT screen again?"


I can't agree with that.... 
I have spent 7+ years with TiVo boxes... but when I go to my Mom's or my Brother-In-Laws... or in my basement to use my DTivo...

I actually have to stop, and think... and look at the remote... to remember were some things are... that I used to use daily, and could have told you keystroke by keystroke by memory a few years ago...

So I do think a "lot" of this is, memory skills... and learned/comfort level of one product over the other.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

FYI - I went back to read the thread more thoroughly after posting this. I had no idea the thread had become so focused on ease of use, as I am pointing out in my post.

I really think there has to be some credibility to the statement. Especially after so many people have stated its easier. I think trying to explain "Why" its easier might be as difficult as explaining why its easy to ride a bike. It just is.

Easier doesn't always mean better - but Tivo is by far "easier" to use.



jaywdetroit said:


> I am going to try and respond to your question without reading too much of this thread. So if i repeat what others say- so sorry!
> 
> *For TIVO:
> *
> ...


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So everyone's "theories" of the science/art of UI design match?
> And you know for a fact that they don't have such people on their staff?


I would venture to say they probably didn't. And if they did, D* should just lie and pretend they didn't.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why? How often do you change your defaults?
> 
> Again... maybe they just need to redo the manual... with the top 10 things to first do when you activate your receiver: (Setup your display, Setup your Audio options, Setup your Default record settings)...


Again Earl you need to stop saying that. A properly designed UI doesn't require a manual, at least not for something as simple as that, and there is absolutely no excuse for the current design of how to access the default recording settings. It's a disgraceful and embarrassingly bad design that was obviously implemented by people completely uneducated in proper UI design theory.

The UI will never become a superior interface if you keep making excuses for some of the current horrible design decisions that have resulted in many things that should be obvious to the user without having to read the manual, but aren't.


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> A properly designed UI doesn't require a manual, at least not for something as simple as that, and there is absolutely no excuse for the current design of how to access the default recording settings. It's a disgraceful and embarrassingly bad design that was obviously implemented by people completely uneducated in proper UI design theory.
> 
> The UI will never become a superior interface if you keep making excuses for some of the current horrible design decisions that have resulted in many things that should be obvious to the user without having to read the manual, but aren't.


That hit the nail right on the head. If D* genuinely wants to listen and improve, he is right.


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## arkenhill (Jan 24, 2007)

First I want to state that the HR20 has improved greatly with each software release. I have had an HR20 since Jan 2007, and the only way I would give it up is if someone pried it from my cold, dead hands. It has features that TiVos have never had and overall is a good solid machine. I have had a TiVo since, well, since there was a TiVo. My first TiVo was a Series 1, 14 hour (well, 8 at the good quality setting) software version 1.3. I remember all of the problems that TiVo went through with saying you could record a show in progress when you could not, the lack of a Season Pass Manager, etc... The HR20 is improving much faster than the TiVo did when it launched. Now to my list:

1) Menu layout. On the TiVo the layout is fixed and does not change. There are shortcuts and things to allow power users to get right where they want to go, but there is always the underlying menu structure that allows people who have not used the interface before to find what they want. The HR20 Menu layout is not fixed and is very much based upon where you are in the system. The Menu button does not always have the same options and buttons do different things based upon where you are in the system.

2) Search - OK, maybe this is not an "interface" in most peoples mind, but it is in mine. The TiVo search is very powerful and adjustable. I can set up as many saved searches as I want in WishLists and search them all at once. It may take 3-5 minutes to present the results, but if I do 25 searches on the HR20, that will take longer than 3-5 minutes. And on the TiVo, I can have almost as many searches as I want. Also on the TiVo you can use quotes to create AND searches (Like a title search for ["Babylon 5" "The Fall of Night"] on the TiVo would return that particular episode of "Babylon 5". On the HR20, it would be [Babylon 5 The Fall of Night] which could return a history special on how Babylon was set to fall in 5 nights of terror)

3) Series Links/Season Passes - TiVo handles Season Passes as a distinct object while the HR20 treats a Series Link as a property of a Series. For example, let's say I have a Season Pass for "Jericho" on the TiVo. Regardless of whether or not there are any upcoming episodes, I can edit the Season Pass by changing all of the parameters except the channel the Season Pass is linked to. I can also see if there is another channel that might have "Jericho" on by using "Viewing Upcoming Showings". On the HR20, if you set up a Series Link for "Jericho" and there are no upcoming showings scheduled to record, you cannot access the Series Link parameters to change them or look for upcoming episodes. You have to do a search to find out if the show is on another channel.

4) Overall Concept - I was not sure what to call this, but "Overall Concept" kind of covers it. What I mean is that the TiVo is designed to take you to the "Now Playing List". It is designed to help you find and record shows and to play recorded shows. Live TV is accessible, but not the focus of the machine. The HR20 takes you straight to Live TV. It does have quick access to the "My Playlist", but you can tell by the little live TV window that stays there that this interface is designed for Live TV and not for Recorded TV.

5) 50 Series Link Limit - To be honest, I have more Auto-Record Wishlist Items on each of my TiVo's than 50. In fact, on each of my TiVo's, I do not get any results for my first 50 or so Season Passes/Auto-Record WishLists. I have Auto-Record WishLists for movies that have just come out that I will not see in the theater, but that I do want to see when they come on HBO/Showtime/etc... I have Season Passes for shows that have not been on in years just on the off chance they come on again. As a bonus, in the "To Do List" on the TiVo, it shows me all of the Season Passes that have no shows set to record. When I select one of them, it brings up a page telling me how many episodes of the Series are in its guide data. And unlike the HR20, it counts episodes not just on the channel I have the Season Pass set to record, but on all of the channels. This enables a quick and easy way to resolve scheduling conflicts.

Now, after writing all of that, I would not trade my HR20 for a MPREG-4 compatible HD TiVo. I would, however, get a MPREG-4 compatible HD TiVo to compliment my HR20.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

cartrivision said:


> Again Earl you need to stop saying that. A properly designed UI doesn't require a manual, at least not for something as simple as that, and there is absolutely no excuse for the current design of how to access the default recording settings. It's a disgraceful and embarrassingly bad design that was obviously implemented by people completely uneducated in proper UI design theory.
> 
> The UI will never become a superior interface if you keep making excuses for some of the current horrible design decisions that have resulted in many things that should be obvious to the user without having to read the manual, but aren't.


While I do not want to participate in a HR20 bash fest... (I do use the HR20 over TIVO currently, and have no plans to change that unless D* makes an MPEG4 TIVO.)

...I do agree that this interface does lack an intuitive touch. I should not need a manual for a DVR. For any reason other than to set it up, swap out a hard drive, or add eSATA... (can tivo do that? -NO!) ...and things of that nature. For general use, I should not need to consult a manual at all.

Raise your hand if you needed a manual to operate your DVD player? Your Playstation? Your VCR? Your TV? Why should I need one for my DVR?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cartrivision said:


> Again Earl you need to stop saying that. A properly designed UI doesn't require a manual, at least not for something as simple as that, and there is absolutely no excuse for the current design of how to access the default recording settings. It's a disgraceful and embarrassingly bad design that was obviously implemented by people completely uneducated in proper UI design theory.
> 
> The UI will never become a superior interface if you keep making excuses for some of the current horrible design decisions that have resulted in many things that should be obvious to the user without having to read the manual, but aren't.


I won't stop saying it... Have I asked you to stop saying "that"... or anyone... I personally think your opinion that the lack of a need for a manual, dictates a better UI design... is a crock.

Why are they excuses? Reasons are reasons... 
Just because you don't agree with the reason... doesn't make it an excuse...

Sorry... not everything out there... especially something getting to be this advanced in feature set... can be learned or told how to use... without a manual....

And seriously... if TiVo UI's was so perfect... then why are there 3rd party books dedicated to the ussage of the product? Why does it still come with a manual to explain it's usage? Why is there not one, but two TiVo funded support forums to help users of the product?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> Raise your hand if you needed a manual to operate your DVD player? Your Playstation? Your VCR? Your TV? Why should I need one for my DVR?


Raising my hand... as yes... I spent the 15 or so minutes to read the manual that came with the Wii... so I could understand all the different options for setup, and configuring it.

After that point... the manual went back in the box... and I am on my way.

And I did also have to read the manual for my Plasma TV to understand what some of the settings were for... when trying to resolve an issue with it...


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## markman07 (Dec 22, 2005)

Wouldn't this be the true test on what's easier to use?

Take 8 random people whom have never used either; 2 kids around 8 years old, 2 teenagers, 2 adults, 2 senior citizens. Give them a todo list of common tasks to try to accomplish without any manual or previous insight on how to use such a device. You could include....but not be limited to....

1. Setup a recording while using the guide.
2. Watch a previously recorded show.
3. Setup a search pass
4. Search for and then record a show from your search results.
5. Manage your Season Passes...
6. ....

----------
I am guessing with this test you would find out which is the easier to use out of two boxes.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So everyone's "theories" of the science/art of UI design match?
> And you know for a fact that they don't have such people on their staff?


It's painfully clear from the end product that the people making high level UI design decisions are either non-existent or completely unqualified to do so. Are there different approaches and conflicting theories to the science of UI design? Yes, but the D* slipshod approach of trial and error by people that have no education about proper UI design does not qualify as a conflicting theory on how to design a UI.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I won't stop saying it... Have I asked you to stop saying "that"... or anyone... I personally think your opinion that the lack of a need for a manual, dictates a better UI design... is a crock.
> 
> Why are they excuses? Reasons are reasons...
> Just because you don't agree with the reason... doesn't make it an excuse...
> ...


In all fairness Earl - I didn't write my first post at TC to figure out how to record a show. I wanted to open the box up and play around with it! (And thanks for your help btw. -lol) I think you were the first person to respond to me over there a couple years back.


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## 2000voltz (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm surprised so many people don't want to read the manual. I use the equipment untill it I get use to it, than I read the manual and find out all the other stuff it can do and its like getting a new toy all over again, besides a hot bath, a cold beer, and a HR -20 manual...ah, Calgon take me away.


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## mr anderson (Oct 6, 2006)

Earl,

Please do not take offense to this, because I can see it's a sore spot...

But you cannot convince me that if you had never touched a tivo or hr20 in your life, And I sat you down with both and said here you go...

My theory is that the tivo would be easier for you to use and you wouldn't even tap into half the feature the hr20 offers, while you would probably tap into 99 % of the tivo's.

What you are saying however is that you would read both manuals before doing anything, so that should negate the above statement.

However, please understand that people just do not do that. Just because you think they should does not mean they should _have to_.

Do you honestly think every customer reads the manual? Do you think that the average customer or family sits there and says "How do I do this?" "Honey, let's go look it up in the manual"..?

They don't. They sit there and say, " How do I do this...can't figure it out? Why would they put that there or not place this here?"

I'm sorry but maybe I'm incorrect as well but you are not right either.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> In all fairness Earl - I didn't write my first post at TC to figure out how to record a show. I wanted to open the box up and play around with it! (And thanks for your help btw. -lol) I think you were the first person to respond to me over there a couple years back.


This was my 6th post, at TCF:
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=184254#post184254

Asking where the Quality Setting were, that I was so used to on my SA TiVo....


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> This was my 6th post, at TCF:
> http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?postid=184254#post184254
> 
> Asking where the Quality Setting were, that I was so used to on my SA TiVo....


okay-

But that is a power user question. Dick and Jane won't even know there are quality settings.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mr anderson said:


> Earl,
> 
> Please do not take offense to this, because I can see it's a sore spot...
> 
> ...


Then why are manuals included any more?
If no one is expected to read them?

IMHO... that is the reason why manuals are no longer read... because they don't go into the depth they once used.

I do understand that people don't read manuals as often as they used to...

But I guess that is (where some earlier someone pointed out)...
The TiVo GUI to a degree was there to handhold you through every process... every time.

The HR20... doesn't do as much handholding... but also doesn't do it, once you get the hang on doing it your own way...

Guess both of the platforms would benefit from a toggle feature to take the training wheels off...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> okay-
> 
> But that is a power user question. Dick and Jane won't even know there are quality settings.


On SA?

Sure they would... it was an option in each Season Pass setting (still think it is to, for the Analog based TiVos)... right there on the screen, you had to pick which "quality" you wanted to record it at.


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## MikeR (Oct 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> But I guess that is (where some earlier someone pointed out)...
> The TiVo GUI to a degree was there to handhold you through every process... every time.
> 
> The HR20... doesn't do as much handholding... but also doesn't do it, once you get the hang on doing it your own way...


Exactly. Which is why I prefer the HR20, and is easier for me in the end.


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## jaywdetroit (Sep 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> On SA?
> 
> Sure they would... it was an option in each Season Pass setting (still think it is to, for the Analog based TiVos)... right there on the screen, you had to pick which "quality" you wanted to record it at.


but anyone using the D*tivo who never had an SA wouldn't know that. (someone like say... me!)


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I won't stop saying it... Have I asked you to stop saying "that"... or anyone... I personally think your opinion that the lack of a need for a manual, dictates a better UI design... is a crock.
> 
> Why are they excuses? Reasons are reasons...
> Just because you don't agree with the reason... doesn't make it an excuse...
> ...


Don't take my telling you to "stop saying that" so literally, however your post makes my point. No matter how bad a UI design is, there always will be some people who like it and defend it, however that won't change the fact that it obviously was designed at least in part by people completely unqualified to do so with little or no oversight by a single qualified UI engineer as shown by numerous glaring blunders in the design that all add up to what is perceived by the masses as an inferior product. Tivo is far from perfect, but I have never had to read the manual to learn how to use or set one of it's basic functions.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

markman07 said:


> Wouldn't this be the true test on what's easier to use?
> 
> Take 8 random people whom have never used either; 2 kids around 8 years old, 2 teenagers, 2 adults, 2 senior citizens. Give them a todo list of common tasks to try to accomplish without any manual or previous insight on how to use such a device. You could include....but not be limited to....
> 
> ...


Well that might work if the HR20 didn't miss the recordings or partially reccord them all the time. As far as how often you have to change defaults on a receiver - That would be quite often on the HR20 since you have to add time to every recording so you won't get a partial recording. And yes, I know there are global defaults, but each recording is unique depending on if you are recording something before or after.

If a recording is important, I have absolutely no confidence that the HR20 will record it correctly. I have gotten used to manually adding time here and there to make up for it's inaccuracy. Seems to me there should a determined effort to get the HR20 to work as advertised before making the leap to whether its interface is user-friendly.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jaywdetroit said:


> but anyone using the D*tivo who never had an SA wouldn't know that. (someone like say... me!)


Well all of thus that did convert from one platform to another platform... even one written by the same people... did ask that question...

Sure that question became "non-existant" later, but at the time of "converting" from one to another... it was a common enough question.


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## philslc (Dec 2, 2006)

jaywdetroit said:


> but anyone using the D*tivo who never had an SA wouldn't know that. (someone like say... me!)


Which is why any poll comparing Tivo to anything else should include the DVR experience of the person doing the poll.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

jjohns said:


> Seems to me there should a determined effort to get the HR20 to work as advertised before making the leap to whether its interface is user-friendly.


And if you are following the threads in the CE forum... that is what the developers are working on...

But us here in forum world, on this side of the equation... we can only do so much to help that particular fix...

Thus why threads like this... (Which really is something we as a consumer base, and forum user community should be spending more time with)... keep us busy during the gaps...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

As a former owner/user of the D*TV Tivobox...I can tell you I neither miss it or much even think about it.

It may have been the right product at the right time 6-7 years ago, but the GUI and connectivity was designed for another time in the evolutionary process of Digital Video recording.

That's not to criticize it or demote it in any way, its just to compare with today's DVR expectations and GUI's.

To me, comparing the GUI is like saying Windows XP is superior to Windows 3.11. In most ways it is, and it would expected to be. Windows 3.11 served its purposes well at the time, and life (& technology) goes on.

At the time, the GUI was great and intuitive based on the evolution of the product and technology. Today, it seems pretty dumbed down in comparison. That's to be expected.

Everyone's standards for measuring easy of use and GUI preferences may vary. In my case, the new HR series DVR's are great and easy to use. I don't miss the Tivobox for even one second.

Your take on these things may be different, and that's OK too.

I believe the thread was started in order to get feedback in terms of *your *perceptions regarding to "ease of use" comparison to the older Tivobox, and is really a measurement of *your *personal opinion. There is *no* right and wrong. Your opinions are always welcome.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Earl,

When I got my first DirecTivo box, I didn't glanced through the manual, but didn't really read through it. I was able to easily navigate through the system for 90% of what I wanted to use it for. It was rare for me to have to dig around in order to figure out how something worked, or what was available.

With the HR-20, I read through the manual, cover to cover. Now, I did not study it like a college text book, but I did read through it. I also had every single tip sheet from this website when I first started navigating the system.

It quickly dawned on me that this entire system was a dream for people who like to "discover" all the cool things their system does. However, it also meant you HAD to discover all the cool things the system does just to get it to do what you wanted it to. 

I've had my box for 5 months? and I am JUST NOW remembering where the Scheduler is in the menu system. Until today, I didn't know I could change the default settings for recorded shows, and I read the manual and read all the tip sheets. I didn't really know there were all these changing menus until very recently. 

I don't consider a lot of these things "features". See any number of posts in this thread and others for what I consider features. Navigating thru the menu is intended for just that...how you get your box to do what you want....not what stuff your box can do.


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## SlimyPizza (Oct 14, 2006)

This has been an interesting topic. I've seen most of my concerns with the HR20 interface vs the Tivo interface discussed here. 

Alot of people have said the HR20 has come a long way - and it has. THAT IS GREAT DTV! Please keep it up. The only thing is, I've been paying real dollars all along. I've already been shown that a better UI in many respects exists in the Series 2 Tivo unit I previously had (although the PIP in the menu screens is a huge DTV plus). I expect that level or better going forward. I think most people do.
On the subject of DLBs, I might never have thought about this featrure had it not been for Tivo. Now that I know it exists. Now that I know it can be done. Now that I've experienced the advantages DLBs have to offer, I want it in my DTV HDVR box.

I'll say this... if we were able to choose between a DTV Tivo HDVR and the HR20 HDVR, I'll bet most people would chose the Tivo unit and its superior remote control.


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## raramaker (Dec 19, 2006)

arkenhill said:


> 4) Overall Concept - I was not sure what to call this, but "Overall Concept" kind of covers it. What I mean is that the TiVo is designed to take you to the "Now Playing List". It is designed to help you find and record shows and to play recorded shows. Live TV is accessible, but not the focus of the machine. The HR20 takes you straight to Live TV. It does have quick access to the "My Playlist", but you can tell by the little live TV window that stays there that this interface is designed for Live TV and not for Recorded TV.


Thank you for a clear statement of what I have been thinking. The HR20 is a live TV receiver with a recorder added on. The picture-in-guide and pictured-in list (why would I want to watch live TV in a tiny window while I am selecting a show to watch???) are examples of the live TV philosophy.

What I want is a device that finds and records my shows as effortlessly as possible. I love the HR20's one-button record from the guide for this reason. However, on the whole, the interface is based on live TV.

Russ


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## JSLayton (Jul 23, 2007)

I had TiVo for about 2 years, then moved to the HR20. I would say that the only thing I really miss from TiVo was DLBs, and that's about it. The HR20's speed, one touch recordings, two touch series links, ability to traverse the guide while watching a recording, all make the HR20 a better interface for me and easier to use.

My wife initially didn't like it, but she has come around to the interface. Now, audio sync issues and the initial problems I had with my HD channels, she didn't see why I didn't just go back to the old system.


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## coacho (Aug 21, 2007)

The Tivo is similar to the Windows which we all were forced to learn. You point and click and go down through menu after menu. If you go to the wrong place you hit back and work your way back up. Then you try another path but you don't get lost.

It seems the designers of the Tivo interface did a better job of understanding the user who wants to work his system without reading the manual and memorizing what each key does. This user will push a few extra buttons until he says " that was so easy even I can do it".

For example, like most here, I am pretty good with all ths stuff but my Pioneer receiver which I have had for 4 years still requires I get the manual out whenever I decide to make changes; Tivo just doesn't require this. The HR20 which I have had for almost 2 months has a pretty good interface but still requires an occasional look at the Milo documents. Therefore, I would rather use my Tivo.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

markman07 said:


> Wouldn't this be the true test on what's easier to use?
> 
> (...)
> 
> I am guessing with this test you would find out which is the easier to use out of two boxes.


To repeat, ease of use for the uninitiated and ease of use for someone who uses it every day are two different things. You will be a new user for maybe a week. If you choose to climb the learning curve, you will be a power user for the rest of the time you use the DVR. Which is more important?


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## PurpleMonk (Aug 3, 2007)

My issues with the HR20 are:

Auto-correct - if I am at 2x FF the autocorrect is just right. By the time I hit play it generally autocorrects the right amount _*for me*_. This is not the case at 3x and 4x. It seems to autocorrect the same number of seconds which leaves me having to either skip back several times or rewind at 1 or 2x.

Auto-correct on Rewind. It simply isn't there. I probably miss that the most from my old TiVo.

Guide Data - Ability to see the original air date of a show. There are a lot of times I want to record a rerun from a specific time (I know I missed an episode in October of 06, but I am not sure about the episode's title). The original air date helps me sort out what to record.

Delete recording on exit - on my TiVo when I was in the last couple of minutes of a recording and I exited the playback it would ask if I wanted to keep or delete the show. Many times I don't want to see the last couple of minutes of comercials (if recording from HBO, Showtime, etc there can be a lot of padding built in between shows). If I am in the last, oh, say 3% of the recording ask me to about deleting when I exit the playback. This also helps keep the clutter down - my wife will exit to a live show and forget to delete the recording.

Slower updating of the To Do list. Last night I made a change in the prioritizer about 45 minutes before a show was set to start. I didn't know if it was going to record or not because the system hadn't updated. I know there is a trade off between being able to watch TV and having the latest To Do list, but surely it can be done faster than it is now.

Reason a show wasn't/won't be recorded. When I go into either history or To Do I do not see why a show wasn't recorded. I am on the latest CE and I THOUGHT I read that this issue had been addressed so maybe I am not looking in the right area.

More as I think of them....


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And I did also have to read the manual for my Plasma TV to understand what some of the settings were for... when trying to resolve an issue with it...


This is where I expect to need to refer to a manual. To get a detailed explanation of this setting, versus that one. Not to tell me where to find the setting amongst the menu hierarchy.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

PurpleMonk said:


> Auto-correct on Rewind. It simply isn't there. I probably miss that the most from my old TiVo


In my opinion this is something that Tivo has done wrong and the HR20 has done right.

Why would you want autocorrect on rewind? If you rewind a bit to far you will still get to your start point very quickly as it is playing in the direction that you want to go, however with Tivo, EVERY time it autocorrects after I rewind, it over-corrects and starts playing at a point already past the place I want to start playback, requiring me to correct the autocorrection with pushes of the skip back button.

Autocorrecting forward after a fast rewind operation makes no sense and doesn't work because there is no way to know how much to correct by, and correcting too much breaks the function, making further manual corrections necessary to play from your intended start point, while correcting to much after a FF action doesn't break the function because you will get to your intended start point very quickly without further action.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Thaedron said:


> This is where I expect to need to refer to a manual. To get a detailed explanation of this setting, versus that one. Not to tell me where to find the setting amongst the menu hierarchy.


Exactly, and unfortunately most of todays manuals don't tell you anything more than what you see on the UI.

For instance, my home theater receiver has several on-screen-menu selectable audio settings, like "audio mode XXXX on/off" where it is not clear what mode XXXX does or why you would want to turn it on or off, and all that the manual says about it is, "select on if you want mode XXXX on, and select off if you want mode XXXX off"&#8230;. not exactly helpful.

Most manuals these days are horribly written and of limited value, which is one of the reasons that many technically inclined people don't even bother reading manuals these days, making it even more important to design the UI so that reading a manual is not required to use the device's basic functions. In some ways it's just as hard or harder to write a good and well organized user's manual as it is to design a good UI that doesn't require reading the user's manual.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Seems to me if you stripped out verything new in an HR20 you would have a very simple to use box.. wouldn't do much but it would be easy to use..
And yes I had the manual out for my tv,dvd,wii soon after I got them and several times since..


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## judson_west (Jun 15, 2006)

I think the analogy can be drawn to pocket knives. There are two pocket knives on a table. Each knife has exactly the same interface but on knife has two blades and the other has 5 blades, 2 screwdrivers, a saw, and a bottle opener. Which one is easier to use?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Yes, that's it exactly! I'd rather have the swiss army one myself.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

judson_west said:


> I think the analogy can be drawn to pocket knives. There are two pocket knives on a table. Each knife has exactly the same interface but on knife has two blades and the other has 5 blades, 2 screwdrivers, a saw, and a bottle opener. Which one is easier to use?


I am going to assume that the Tivo is the 5-bladed knife with labled buttons to press for getting the knives to pop out and the HR-20 is the one with two blades that only come out part way before going back in.


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## 2000voltz (Sep 21, 2007)

judson_west said:


> I think the analogy can be drawn to pocket knives. There are two pocket knives on a table. Each knife has exactly the same interface but on knife has two blades and the other has 5 blades, 2 screwdrivers, a saw, and a bottle opener. Which one is easier to use?


qoute of the day...but I think you brought a knife to a gun fight:lol:


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

The fact that they are still struggling with the software's core competency this long after deployment is why anyone with a software project mgmt background is correctly critical of the project. Certainly from the outside its not clear as to whether the problem is in the engineers implementation, the overall design, limited resources and/or insane mgmt expectations or <insert reason software projects fail for good people> but it's very clear to any software professional that there is a huge problem somewhere.

No offense meant.



Earl Bonovich said:


> And if you are following the threads in the CE forum... that is what the developers are working on...


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## MizzouTiger (Jan 10, 2007)

SolidState said:


> Now Playing list on the HR10 is MUCH easier to use. I like having my playlist sorted how I want(A-Z, delete by date, recorded date, etc.), with my "foldered" shows appearing in chronological order within their folders. Why does the HR20 only allow A-Z or chronological but no mixture?


I agree with this totally!!. The HR20 should definitely allow this sort of "mixeda" playlist sorting.

I definitely think the guide speed is much, much better than the D* Tivo boxes. That was one thing that aggravated me the most with the Tivo boxes. Seems to take forever to pull up the guide and scroll through it.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

MizzouTiger said:


> I agree with this totally!!. The HR20 should definitely allow this sort of "mixeda" playlist sorting.


We have this request on the current Wish List:

*OPTION to sort shows within PLAYLIST folders by date, although the main list is sorted differently.*

For those of you who haven't yet taken the survey, please let D* know that this and other feature requests are important to you by voting here. TIA. /steve


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## barryhammond (Sep 13, 2007)

Let me explain my biggest issues with the HR20 and why I think the Tivo interface is superior. All of these revolve around standard features, picking programs to record, setting up season passes/links, and watching the shows you want to watch.

1. The tivo guide shows a lot more information. I makes doing something like finding out if there is anything on HDNet Movies coming up that I want to watch. Much easier to do on a tivo. 

2. A common problem of mine is manipulating which programs are going to get recorded that have been scheduled, but are now not allowing me to watch some sporting event, such as last nights football game, because I have too many things scheduled. I've never accidentally deleted a season pass on a tivo, yet do it all the time on the hr20.

The record button should never cancel a recording without a warning, and it should absolutely never ever delete a series link so I miss this show from now and forever. This is the most frustrating non-intuitive thing about the HR20. Don't delete my series links unless i tell you to do so, never, ever, and never again. Don't delete anything unless I hit a delete button, or a delete menu item, or cancel, or whatever. And I shouldn't have to navigate through a "Record Once..." menu item to get to the option to cancel a scheduled recording.

I tried experimenting today to see if there where easier ways to do these sorts of operations, and I again accidentally deleted a series link. I do know how not to do this, but I still keep my priority and season link list written on a sheet of paper so I can make sure it is still correct and it exists.

3. Basic menu navigation on the Tivo is easier to understand and use. Looking at the top level menus, I think that you can see a big defference. The tivo has 7 items, 3 with the basic things that you do with any DVR, now playing list, watch live tv, pick programs to record. It has a messages & settings, standby, and 2 items dealing with showcases and an ads, which they use to generate revenue. I like standy here because it is not "messages and settings", it is what you do to turn it off (sort of off that is). You can complain about the ad being here and the existence of the showcases, I'll buy that, but as far as being on the top level menu, I am ok with it. 

The HR20 has Help and Settings, My Playlist, Audio Options, Favorites, Previous Ch's, Search, Caller Id & Messages, Parental. You have to scroll to see all of the entries (bad design). I just had to open previous channels to see what that was (nice feature, but on the top level menu? How about access via the guide where I am looking when I am changing channels?), Audio Options and Favorites can easily be under Help and Settings (Favorites actually is as well). No way to get to series links or prioritizer that I can tell which are part the most basic and integral of all features. Audio Options? No that is important. How many times are you changing that? On the top menu, wow. 

When you are on the guide, the tivo says "hit ENTER for guide options". I hit enter, and I understand my options. I can choose them easily. on the HR20, it doesn't say anything, you change part of the options through hitting guide again, and part of them through hitting the menu button. the menu options change the guide button options as well, adding a little more complexity. there is a nice additional feature with the HR20 to filter the channels based on the channel type (like just hd channels), but a single guide options selection window is much simper on the tivo.

The HR20 GUI needs a lot of work in my opinion. The features are there, they just need reorganized in the GUI.


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## calidelphia (Feb 17, 2007)

I just asked my fiance yesterday if she thinks the GUI on the HR20 is hard to use....

After asking me what a GUI was she said:
No. I'm not an idiot.

I then asked her if she preferred the Tivo....

Her response was:
I hate that I have to stop what I'm watching to look at the List and stop watching something from the List to view the Guide.

This goes for menus as well and I find it really annoying on my R10 after using the HR20 for a year. Honestly is this UI really that hard to figure out? With the exception of trying to switch tuners, (Which I later found on this site couldn't be done) it probably took me a week to learn every nook and cranny of the HR20. I find that the easier UI to me is the one I use on a daily basis. Right now that happens to be the HR20.

I also love the fact that I can use the previous button between Live tv and a recorded show or even between two recorded shows.

The couple things I do miss about Tivo is Skipping to the beginning, end or tick marks of a recording with ease. I've been praying that D* will rethink the press and hold debacle. I never really used DLB that much, although I would love to be able to pause the SLB and watch something from the List. And finally autocorrect on 1XFF didn't happen on the Tivo.

Even with the above features missing, I still prefer the HR20.

As far as the remote gripe goes, I can't believe people invest so much money on their systems and still don't have a decent universal remote....

And for those who still read manuals. (Which I do too. Just not right away.) 
Put it in the bathroom where real quality reading and thinking is done.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I do agree with a lot of your GUI observations actually.



barryhammond said:


> I tried experimenting today to see if there where easier ways to do these sorts of operations, and I again accidentally deleted a series link.


Hmm, only way to do this is to hit the dash key twice. Stay away from the dash key I'd say! 



> And I shouldn't have to navigate through a "Record Once..." menu item to get to the option to cancel a scheduled recording.


You don't. While in the ToDo list press the STOP button and it will cancel that particular episode/recording.

In the next national release it will be easier for these things. The RED button will be used to delete/cancel anything in any menu. And there will be an onscreen hint to do this. And you'll get a confirmation on any action using the Red button so you can back out of it. You can still use the double dash for quick deletion with no confirmation if you want. I've put myself in the habit to use the Red button for all those actions.


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## PurpleMonk (Aug 3, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> In my opinion this is something that Tivo has done wrong and the HR20 has done right.
> 
> Why would you want autocorrect on rewind? If you rewind a bit to far you will still get to your start point very quickly as it is playing in the direction that you want to go, however with Tivo, EVERY time it autocorrects after I rewind, it over-corrects and starts playing at a point already past the place I want to start playback, requiring me to correct the autocorrection with pushes of the skip back button.
> 
> Autocorrecting forward after a fast rewind operation makes no sense and doesn't work because there is no way to know how much to correct by, and correcting too much breaks the function, making further manual corrections necessary to play from your intended start point, while correcting to much after a FF action doesn't break the function because you will get to your intended start point very quickly without further action.


There is no more uncertainty in how much to correct when rewinding than there is when fast forwarding.

Perhaps this is just a case of being used to a function and assuming that because it is what I am used to it must be the best way.... but I still like it.

This seems to be such a polarizing issue that I honestly think it would be best if there were a menu option to turn it on and off. Not a new idea I know, but probably the only solution that will satisfy the majority of the users.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

kmill14 said:


> I am going to assume that the Tivo is the 5-bladed knife with labled buttons to press for getting the knives to pop out and the HR-20 is the one with two blades that only come out part way before going back in.


No the Tivo is a 5 bladed knife where each blade unfolds out of the case in the exact way and as you would expect them to when you look at the knife, while the HR20 is a 5 bladed knife where one blade folds out, one shoots out of the end by spring mechanism when you press on both sides of the knife, one is hidden in a compartment on one end of the knife case that can be opened by pushing it down and then turning it counterclockwise one quarter turn, one is in a compartment that is revealed by sliding the side of the case perpendicular to the length of the knife, and one rotates out automatically "switch blade style" when you press on the little plastic logo on the side of the knife which is really the disguised switchblade release button.


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## mnbulldog (Aug 25, 2006)

The Tivo interface was far from spectacular for me. Now if you want to compare it to a UTV - UTV would win hands down. That just did everything right.

But I digress ...

I think the UI of the HR20 is much more user-friendly. I enjoy the quick menu. I like seeing the red circles in the guide for programs that are set to record without going into the To Do List as you would have to on Tivo. The GUI is much quicker. 

50 series limit? Not really a UI thing but yet it is.

Outside of DLB (which isn't a UI feature I guess) I can't think of anything the Tivo unit does better.

I don't even care about the peanut remote because I have always used a Harmony which is better than both.


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## Chargerdan (Jun 15, 2007)

I'm hoping that someone at D* uses the posts to try to make the HR20 a better product. Everyone is different. What one person likes another one doesn't. For the original question on which device is easier to use my choice is the TiVo. 

I judge dvr on 2 criterias. 
1) Is it easy for me to use.
2) Is it easy for my wife or someone visiting my house to use.

The first one is easy. I love electronics. It doesn't take me much time to learn and I don't mind reading the manual. I like command shortcuts and I use them. The main 2 features I like in the Tivo that I miss in the HR20 are: DLB and Skip to Tick. I've read enough posts to think that DLB isn't coming soon and may never will. The lack of Skip to Tick drives me nuts. Holding down the keys works but it just seems to take forever and it doesn't work very well with a universal remote.

Now comes the interesting part. I also judge equipment by how other people use it. Namely my wife. There are times that I hear about a show and I would like to have recorded to watch later. If my wife can find the program easily then I know it's a good product. In the days of the vcr I had to walk my wife through every step to set-up a recording. I hate to say it but I have to do the same thing with the HR20. Not that it's hard to find but scrolling through the guide when it only shows 1.5 hours of programming and 5 channels makes it harder than the Tivo. That's only 1 example but there are others. I have to keep both units connected to the main TV because of this problem. 

I do agree with the person who said that the UI for the HR20 was designed by engineers and the Tivo UI was designed by people who just like TV. The Tivo is a device that appeals to multiple groups. People who want direction for tasks find it easy to use. For people, like myself, who know what it does there are shortcuts and hacks. You seem to get the best of both worlds. You can use whatever guide you like and search/sort based on your preference.

The HR20 just doesn't give you those options. It seems to be designed for the technical person in mind. If the HR20 just had different options for items like the guide or just made it a little more intuitive for the average user it would be great.


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## code4code5 (Aug 29, 2006)

The only thing I can honestly say that I really despise about Tivo is not having a PIG or PIL. I'm a surfer, and even if I'm watching something I like, I want to see what else is on. I also wish for more information in the HR20 guide, but I'll gladly keep the hour and a half time frame to get to watch a show in PIG.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

The Tivo UI suffers from a lot of displacement. Ideally a show should be a show should be a show (welcome to the wonderful world of objects). Any time you see a show listed the user should be able to select any potentially relevant options. A glaring example of this is in the Tivo Now Playing list where you can watch a show, decide you like it but you can't say set up a season pass from that instance of the show (in the Now Playing list).

Whereas Tivo abstracts a lot of functionality from 'watching TV' the HR20 attempts to integrate it with the process. Personally I think this makes Tivo easier to understand but ultimately the HR20 more efficient to use.

peace . . .



calidelphia said:


> I just asked my fiance yesterday if she thinks the
> I then asked her if she preferred the Tivo....
> 
> Her response was:
> I hate that I have to stop what I'm watching to look at the List and stop watching something from the List to view the Guide.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

Right after DLB I think 'filters guide data by categories' and persists it.

For example on a busy college football Saturday Tivo's guide can be set to show channels that are or will shortly have games on and it remembers my filiter until I remove it. So for the few hours or so football is on, my guide only shows channels that show football.

Or only show channels that actually have HD shows on right now not just channels that may or may not.

peace . . .



mnbulldog said:


> Outside of DLB (which isn't a UI feature I guess) I can't think of anything the Tivo unit does better.


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## barryhammond (Sep 13, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> I do agree with a lot of your GUI observations actually.
> 
> Hmm, only way to do this is to hit the dash key twice. Stay away from the dash key I'd say!
> 
> ...


Hitting the record button in the to do list will delete the scheduled recording and potentially delete you season pass, as will hitting the record button on the show in the guide.


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## barryhammond (Sep 13, 2007)

tim99 said:


> The Tivo UI suffers from a lot of displacement. Ideally a show should be a show should be a show (welcome to the wonderful world of objects). Any time you see a show listed the user should be able to select any potentially relevant options. A glaring example of this is in the Tivo Now Playing list where you can watch a show, decide you like it but you can't say set up a season pass from that instance of the show (in the Now Playing list).
> 
> Whereas Tivo abstracts a lot of functionality from 'watching TV' the HR20 attempts to integrate it with the process. Personally I think this makes Tivo easier to understand but ultimately the HR20 more efficient to use.
> 
> peace . . .


Agree with the show is a show statement 100%.

Disagree with live tv control and the whole way that you can't navigate the menus without seeing live tv on the HR20. This behavior of is a matter of opinion and would be best served with a user option if possible. I just finished watching a show, deleted it, the system goes back to the guide and starts playing a show that I am currently recording, showing me something that is going to happen in the last 5 minutes of the show. Suppose I am recording a sporting event and the HR20 shows me the score or some highlight that basically gives away the whole game before I can get the program started from the beginning. I want total control of what I watch and when I watch it. This "feature" removes some of that for sure. You have a chance of catching something on a tivo too, but hitting the main tivo button before turning on the tv will eliminate that.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

Excellent point although I am not sure Tivo like displacement is the answer. The problem you state is very real, I've had to mute my receiver and turn my head away to prevent from seeing the score of a game I was recording and needed to see from the beginning. That's pretty nuts.

Agree that the Tivo button was an almost perfect way of managing this.

Would the option of somehow toggling the PIG off do it you think?



barryhammond said:


> Agree with the show is a show statement 100%.
> 
> Disagree with live tv control and the whole way that you can't navigate the menus without seeing live tv on the HR20. This behavior of is a matter of opinion and would be best served with a user option if possible. I just finished watching a show, deleted it, the system goes back to the guide and starts playing a show that I am currently recording, showing me something that is going to happen in the last 5 minutes of the show. Suppose I am recording a sporting event and the HR20 shows me the score or some highlight that basically gives away the whole game before I can get the program started from the beginning. I want total control of what I watch and when I watch it. This "feature" removes some of that for sure. You have a chance of catching something on a tivo too, but hitting the main tivo button before turning on the tv will eliminate that.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I've only had the HR20 for about 3 weeks after having D*TiVo's for almost 7 years.

In order to maintain full disclosure, I should add that I've yet to read the HR20 manual and obviously, I'm much more familiar with the D*Tivo.

That being said, I never read the manual for my D*Tivo either and was very comfortable with it within 1 day. As stated, I've had the HR20 for 3 weeks and I'm still not comfortable with it.

Does it have more features? Absolutely (but lets not assume that if the TiVo and D* relationship hadn't deteriorated, that current D*Tivo's wouldn't have just as many features - or more). 
Is it easier to use? Absolutely not.


Here's the best way to explain why the D*TiVo interface is better: In order to naviagate around the D*TiVo system, you really only need access to 4 things: The Tivo button at the top of the remote, the Guide button, the directional keypad area, and the Enter button

If watching live TV, you can hit the guide to see what's on. You can also hit the tivo key to go directly to the list. From there, you can use the back arrow on the directional keypad (or the up down arrows to move around the list) to go to ANY other feature.
If you're already in a menu system, you just hit guide to take you back to live TV.


With access to those 4 buttons, you can access anything in the D*TiVo interface. That makes it more user friendly. No yellow, red, green, blue buttons. No exit, menu, list, etc.

Now, some may say that the HR20 has too many features to be able to do that. Maybe. Maybe the HR20 has so many features, that it's impossible for it to be user friendly. But that wasn't the question.

Now, I still don't use the HR20 full time - it's a part time machine, so I haven't spent a lot of time with it, but today it took me several minutes to figure out how to find the recording history. On the D*TiVo, I can hit list and then basically hit the back arrow until I find what I need. I don't have to think about whether to hit menu (and then which sub-category) or list or a colored button.

The CC feature on the HR20, for example, is something like 15-20 key presses. Nothing on the D*TiVo is that many key presses. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I'll never see CC on the HR20, because I'll never remember 15 different key presses.

The TiVo interface is just easier. Easier to learn. Easier to use. Easier to remember. It's that simple.




On an unrelated note, the picture in guide feature on the HR20 is one of my least favorite features. Sure, it's great when you want to scroll through the guide and still be able to see what you're watching (but how many people that use DVR's actually scroll through the guide?). However, we are often recording 2 things at once. With the D*TiVo, as soon as we turned on the TV, we'd go to the list. That doesn't help on the HR20 as we'll still be seeing something we're recording in the window. I don't want to see that. Sure, you can pause or something, but why would anyone really want to see what's in that window, except for when using the guide? If I'm watching something, I want to see it on the whole screen. If I'm in the menu's, I'm not watching anything. It should have the ability for in the guide only or something.


One thing I don't miss is the TiVo guide. We always used the D* guide, because we never liked the TiVo one.

I also haven't noticed that the HR20 is noticeably faster than the D*TiVo.


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## fl panthers (Sep 19, 2007)

there is far to much reading here so if it's been said please ignore.the jumping of tuners by pressing the down arrow is the best feature on tivo.you can watch 2 complete football games at the same time.pause and jump ff through commercials and repeat.if my hr-20 did this i would be grateful


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

code4code5 said:


> The only thing I can honestly say that I really despise about Tivo is not having a PIG or PIL. I'm a surfer, and even if I'm watching something I like, I want to see what else is on. I also wish for more information in the HR20 guide, but I'll gladly keep the hour and a half time frame to get to watch a show in PIG.


As a channel surfer, is the PIG really more important to you than a dual buffer or advanced search functionality or swivel search?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> Imagine if Earl had not started this topic...we wouldn't know how to change the default settings for recordings. And how many people on here are glued to this board and fanatic about their DVR and TV watching??? Crazy!


I agree 100%! It's crazy that you would never open the manual that came with your DVR!!! Imagine if you had, you would have found out about the recording defaults and wouldn't have had to wait for this thread!


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

tim99 said:


> The fact that they are still struggling with the software's core competency this long after deployment is why anyone with a software project mgmt background is correctly critical of the project. Certainly from the outside its not clear as to whether the problem is in the engineers implementation, the overall design, limited resources and/or insane mgmt expectations or <insert reason software projects fail for good people> but it's very clear to any software professional that there is a huge problem somewhere.
> 
> No offense meant.


I can't tell from your post if have you actually visited the CE forum Earl referred to earlier, but if you had you would know that the testing Earl is talking about is for new releases that offer new features. Of course DIRECTV tweaks existing features in each release, but this testing is what got us the new white GUI, the RED delete options on many screens, FFW correction, and soon ... improved search results, Remote Booking, and DirecTV-on-Demand. How anyone would characterize that as "struggling" is beyond me ...


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## rmetcalf (Jun 5, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I can't tell from your post if have you actually visited the CE forum Earl referred to earlier, but if you had you would know that the testing Earl is talking about is for new releases that offer new features. Of course DIRECTV tweaks existing features in each release, but this testing is what got us the new white GUI, the RED delete options on many screens, FFW correction, and soon ... improved search results, Remote Booking, and DirecTV-on-Demand. How anyone would characterize that as "struggling" is beyond me ...


Yeah... simply...

When a week goes by that I don't have to reset one of my three HR-20s to bring back some of those cool features/functions... then I 'too' will get off the 'struggling' bandwagon...


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Sorry if this has been asked already, but do any of the Tivos have RF remotes? Thats the one thing I like best about the HR20, the RF works great.


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## 01ragtop (Sep 17, 2007)

I know this was already posted, but if I could have only one thing it would be a "Save to VCR" makes it really nice for dumping to DVD!!!!


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

None of these new features are a PVR's core competency. A PVR's core competency is recording TV shows. Recording of TV shows is not an invention nor a new technology. Its been working on several platforms including offerings from 1-2 man shops across a widely disparate group (windows hardware) and their software 'never' misses. And certainly not problematically so.

Now a year later this PVR cannot execute its core function reliably. Whether it works for you or me is irrelevant, it clearly has a lot of issues among its rank and file.

This would be analogues to buying a word processor that can translate in 50 different languages and they add 10 more languages and other new features every month but after a year they still can't get the software it to save documents reliably.

Cannot reliably implement the A1 requirement and a known technology a year (?) after deployment.

It's a pretty well known problem, why hasn't it been fixed by now? Just that no one has bothered?

If they could have solved such a major problem they would have. But they haven't. Struggling.

That's how I can say it.



Drew2k said:


> I can't tell from your post if have you actually visited the CE forum Earl referred to earlier, but if you had you would know that the testing Earl is talking about is for new releases that offer new features. Of course DIRECTV tweaks existing features in each release, but this testing is what got us the new white GUI, the RED delete options on many screens, FFW correction, and soon ... improved search results, Remote Booking, and DirecTV-on-Demand. How anyone would characterize that as "struggling" is beyond me ...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

barryhammond said:


> Hitting the record button in the to do list will delete the scheduled recording and potentially delete you season pass, as will hitting the record button on the show in the guide.


Hmmm, never tried that. Never would see a reason to hit the record button in the ToDo list. I guess my only advice is to not do that. If you want to cancel something in the ToDo list hit the STOP button and coming soon the RED button with confirmation.


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## karolinatx (Oct 5, 2006)

raramaker said:


> Why would I want to watch live TV in a tiny window while I am selecting a show to watch???


I've only had the HR20 since Friday and have been a TiVo user for over five years, and this statement, along with the observation that the HR20 is geared towards the live tv watcher, is what it really boils down to for me. For me, Live TV was always secondary to my Now Playing list. I've probably spent less than an hour of my life channel surfing since I got TiVo. I'd go as far as to say that TiVo is perfect for a user who likes to sit down and watch a show, and the HR20 is more geared towards folks who like to flip around. No wonder my husband likes it better. 

Perhaps I'll warm to the changing menus, but for now I'll say having one permanent menu system is much more intuitive for me.

Oh, and also? I keep trying to go left. :grin:


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Folks - the "tiny window" isn't just for live TV - it will also show the program you're watching from your playlist. Why flip channels? I never do. Except for live sports, 100% of everything I watch is from my playlist.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

mnbulldog said:


> I think the UI of the HR20 is much more user-friendly. I enjoy the quick menu. I like seeing the red circles in the guide for programs that are set to record without going into the To Do List as you would have to on Tivo. The GUI is much quicker.
> 
> 50 series limit? Not really a UI thing but yet it is.
> 
> ...


Agree with everything you posted. Only difference is I use a Home Theater Master MX-600 universal remote, but I can understand the appeal Harmony has for a lot of folks.

I find the TiVo to be more intrusive and clingy. I'm no engineer, but I like having a 30 second slip button pre-programmed on the remote. I had to learn how to program the skip on the TiVo and I'm not sure if to this day they include that code in the manual.

And as far as manuals, I don't read them front to back, but I keep them handy for reference.


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## skakusha (Sep 16, 2006)

Many of my friends and family members commented that the one thing they really liked about Tivo, was the "thumbs up" button press for recording a show via a commercial. I liked that feature as well, but it was not used 100%. It was a cool feature to be able to add a recording. Much nicer then doing a search, or going to the guide to find the show announced in the commercial. In terms of ratings, I can see how this feature would help networks grow audience and market share. 

As for me, I like the HR20 interface more from a speed and straight forward perspective of UI use. I like how easy it is to set up SL's, and the control I have over settings and options. The thing I miss most about the Tivo is the Season Pass capacity. I am not a big fan of the 50 SL's cap.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Many of the top Wish List requests are just requests to make the HR20 easy to use like TiVo. Here are 15...

*Dual Live Buffers - Toggle between two live shows with 30+ minute buffers on each.

"Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package."

Ability to edit all shows in the PRIORITIZER, even when there are none upcoming, page 28.

Allow editing of the "CHANNELS I GET" list, similar to the way the OFF-AIR channel list is editable.

Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.

Show program description in the "To Do List" and "History", instead of a static message.

Add more program description INFO, to allow better SEARCHES and more show details, like "Original Air Date".

Increase the maximum number of SERIES LINKS up from the current 50.

OPTION to turn off PICTURE IN GUIDE/LIST/SETUP, to prevent "spoilers".

When selecting PRIORITIZER from within a show's SERIES LINK set-up, the cursor should already be positioned at that show. OPTION for a TiVo-style GUIDE list (text-only, no GRID).

Show "Delete / Don't Delete" popup when pressing EXIT in the last few minutes of a recording.

OPTION to suppress On-screen graphics display (OSD) when saving a recording to DVD or tape.

Always return to most recently accessed position on MY PLAYLIST when using LIST.

AUTOTUNE capability, similar to other DirecTV receivers.

RIGHT ARROW should mimic the SELECT key when practical. *

DIRECTV licensed the TiVo patent portfolio so they could do any of these that they wanted.

- Craig


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Folks - the "tiny window" isn't just for live TV - it will also show the program you're watching from your playlist. Why flip channels? I never do. Except for live sports, 100% of everything I watch is from my playlist.


And as I've mentioned, if you're "watching" something, why would you be doing anything else?

If you're scheduling a show or doing something else in the menu system, why would you be watching something you recorded (on that little box in the upper right)?

If you're scheduling a show or doing something else in the menu system, why would you want to be forced to see (and hear) something that's in the middle of being recorded?

If something is important enough for me to record, I want to watch it as large as I can. I don't want to watch it in a little box. In other words, the only time the "tiny window" is useful is if it's showing something I don't really care about (live TV), which is why it's only useful when flipping channels. Which as you stated, isn't done very much on a DVR. Making that feature useless a majority of the time in addition to causing "spoilers" quite frequently.


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

I do find the tivo trickplay functionality better than the hr20. 

I miss skip to tick with a single click as opposed to the 3 second button push. 

30 second slip is annoying, no matter how many times you can stack it. 

Advancing in the guide was much easier with tivo. ff would advance the guide to the next hour and a half or whatever the guide increment was. With the hr20 you move it by half hour increments or 12 hours, no middle ground. 

The guide information was much more complete with tivo, with the hr20 I see a ton of "No information available" descriptions, and alot of times ratings identifiers are missing as well, Fast Food Nation in the guide is R rated, with no tags as to why such as AC, AL, N, V, and it is far from the only one. 

As mentioned, it is too easy to accidentally delete a SL with the hr20. You try to stop a single episode from the guide and next thing you know the whole thing is gone. 

History had more information on tivo. It is rather lacking and often wrong with the hr20. Prison Break last night is in the history 3 times for the same channel and same time. 2 say Not recorded, the 3rd says deleted. Only the 3rd one is correct. 

Having said all that, the hr20 is not very far behind the tivo, and has surpassed it in several areas. I hope it continues to improve in the trick play and guide areas. Would love the up or down arrows to bring up the quick guide instead of having to push the blue button. 

Ok, I'm done rambling for a bit.


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## skakusha (Sep 16, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Many of the top Wish List requests are just requests to make the HR20 easy to use like TiVo. Here are 15...
> 
> - Craig


Is there an item on the Wishlist to allow you to jump back in a show when the "Delete Now of Keep Now" message pops up?

I don't know about anyone else, but everyone I know that has an HR20, myself included, complains that jump forward gets away from them at the end of a show. Then in order to see the previews for next week's upcoming episode. you have to reselect the show in the playlist and fast forward or trick skip play to the end to watch the upcoming previews. I often screw up with the skip play and have to do it again.

I am not sure if Tivo allows you to jump back after the show ended, but I know my Comcast DVR (which I hated) did this. This was the only positive thing about the Comcast DVR. I have since gone 100% to DTV in the last year, as I am not a big fan of Comcast.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

skakusha said:


> Is there an item on the Wishlist to allow you to jump back in a show when the "Delete Now of Keep Now" message pops up?
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but everyone I know that has an HR20, myself included, complains that jump forward gets away from them at the end of a show. Then in order to see the previews for next week's upcoming episode. you have to reselect the show in the playlist and fast forward or trick skip play to the end to watch the upcoming previews. I often screw up with the skip play and have to do it again.
> 
> I am not sure if Tivo allows you to jump back after the show ended, but I know my Comcast DVR (which I hated) did this. This was the only positive thing about the Comcast DVR. I have since gone 100% to DTV in the last year, as I am not a big fan of Comcast.


You can't do that with the tivo either (at least the D*TiVo). Once you hit the Delete screen, you have to go back to the list.


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## personman (Apr 24, 2007)

On the Tivo and FF1X, you would still see the CC messages. 

On the HR20 (and every other DVR AFAIK) does not have this "feature."


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I can't tell from your post if have you actually visited the CE forum Earl referred to earlier, but if you had you would know that the testing Earl is talking about is for new releases that offer new features. Of course DIRECTV tweaks existing features in each release, but this testing is what got us the new white GUI, the RED delete options on many screens, FFW correction, and soon ... improved search results, Remote Booking, and DirecTV-on-Demand. How anyone would characterize that as "struggling" is beyond me ...


He said that they are "still struggling with the software's core competency this long after deployment", and that's absolutely true. While they may be constantly adding new features, existing features are still full of bugs. Have you ever tried to use any of the playlist sorting options besides sort by date on an R15? How long have those options been there and been completely broken? If obvious bugs that can be clearly seen like that linger on and on, imaging how bad it is for the more obscure logical bugs that aren't so easy to see. To characterize the software development effort for the D* DVRs as "struggling" is actually being kind and giving them the benefit of the doubt. I'd characterize it more as being in a state of disarray.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I agree 100%! It's crazy that you would never open the manual that came with your DVR!!! Imagine if you had, you would have found out about the recording defaults and wouldn't have had to wait for this thread!


WTF Drew. I read the manual when I first got the machine, and I have used the machine for 6 months. For most people who have used a product for some time, they refer to the manual for troubleshooting only. Changing the defaults for recordings is NOT a troubleshooting question.

I understand there are a number of people who are VERY passionate about this new system, but get this straight in your stubborn skulls. The HR-20 interface is not straight forward.

Things are not always in obvious places for most people. Case in point:

This is first and foremost a DVR. A recording device. While watching TV, I hit Menu and want to see my recording options. The menu list goes as such:
1. Help and Settings (which by the way is first, but is ABOVE the default cursor spot, which could confuse some people)
2. My Playlist
3. Music and Photos
4. Audio Options
5. Favorites
6. Previous Ch's
7. Search
8. Caller ID & Messages
9. Parental

Ok. So why was it determined that the "Scheduler" items should not be here ahead of Music and Photos, Favorites (a SETUP feature) , Caller ID, or Parental (another SETUP option). I would think people would use the "Scheduler" feature a lot more than most of these other choices.

Also, why was it decided that the "Menu" would be ever-changing, depending on where you are in the system? Is that in the manual somewhere? Most people assume (based on other software designs) that the "Menu" selection would be constant no matter what screen you are on.

Why is there not a selection option when setting up a Series Link to change the defaults right there?


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

The average Joe/Jane does not want to read a book to learn how to watch TV and if you tell them they have to then they most likely will not purchase the receiver or will never like it. A receiver has a good UI if an overwhelming majority of people can perform the major functions of the unit with minimal guidance.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Many of the top Wish List requests are just requests to make the HR20 easy to use like TiVo. Here are 15...
> 
> DIRECTV licensed the TiVo patent portfolio so they could do any of these that they wanted.
> 
> - Craig


REALLY? So the next question would be, do they want to? And are they? And if not, why?

It is funny that so many top wishlist items are from the software DTV decided to get rid of.


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## wisem10 (Aug 17, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> I understand there are a number of people who are VERY passionate about this new system, but get this straight in your stubborn skulls. The HR-20 interface is not straight forward.


This is what makes this thread so bizarre to me.

I am an experienced usability engineer / UI designer and my work time is pretty much divided thusly: 1/3 designing user interfaces, 1/3 conducting usability tests on those interfaces, 1/3 making changes to the design based on the test results. Exactly zero percent of my time is spent telling users that their opinions are wrong, or that usability issues that they encountered were in part their fault because they didn't read the onscreen instructions. And, these are designs that I created - some of which I may think are pretty good - but, if users have problems with it I take it as constructive criticism and try to address the problem and make it better.

I'm not nearly as critical as some in this forum, but the HR20 has room for improvement. And, it doesn't matter that it has more function than the Tivos, the UI could have been simpler while still providing new features like picture in guide, etc. Maybe it's not going to be as simple as the DTivos, but it could be better than what they have today.

- Mark


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

spartanstew said:


> And as I've mentioned, if you're "watching" something, why would you be doing anything else?
> 
> If you're scheduling a show or doing something else in the menu system, why would you be watching something you recorded (on that little box in the upper right)?
> 
> ...


I do this all the time. See a promo for some upcoming show, cool, pull up the guide or menu and set that to record before I forget and I don't lose what I'm watching. Heck, I do this every Sunday during football. At some point I get bored for a while and I'll pull up the guide and set recordings for movies on the new HD movies channels. Takes 5-10 minutes and I still get to keep up with the game in question. And we rarely watch Live TV except sports.


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

Since your question is about UI and not other features:

>The Tivo interfface looks better, more pleasing to the eye.

>The HR20 UI is more up to date in how it works. To me the HR20 acts more like a web browser. It has more than one way of doing something. For example setting a series link for a show. Tivo forces you to go through certain screens in order to acomplish a task.

Other than the ugly apearance I perfer the HR20 UI.


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

The TiVo UI is much easier and intuitive.

1. I think the series link and season pass are a world apart. The HR-20 seres link is VERY awkward. The results are scattered all over the place. On the season pass, searching for a program, for example, results in showings with channel information. I still can;t understand what i am seeing with the search results for series recordings. 

2. Most of the frequently used functions seem buried in the menu some where on the HR-20. I.E. Search is not on the first page of the menu screen. It takes another button press to get there. Why?

3. The guide on the TiVo gives more information and gives me a better snapshot of the future programs per channel. It also has optional views if i don't like the current one.

4. Even without DLB I still miss the ability to switch between tuners. It's just more elegant to be able to press the down button to get to the other tuner rather than having to go into the list and select the program being recorded (which I don't unnecessarily want to see from the beginning) or find the program in the guide. I just want to switch tuners and see what is showing or recording.

5. Use of the back button where it makes sense like exiting from menus. The HR-20 is better but not to the TiVo standard.

I guess it's not entirely fair to say the TiVo UI is better since I have been using a DTivo starting the year they were introduced so I am VERY comfortable with the interface. For me the biggest nightmare is searching and series links. If these were more TiVo like I would not have much of an opinion.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can't agree with that....
> I have spent 7+ years with TiVo boxes... but when I go to my Mom's or my Brother-In-Laws... or in my basement to use my DTivo...
> 
> I actually have to stop, and think... and look at the remote... to remember were some things are... that I used to use daily, and could have told you keystroke by keystroke by memory a few years ago...
> ...


Earl, you only have to 'stop and think' because, as you said, you USED to use the TiVo daily. When I used my TiVo daily, I never had to stop and think where certain things were in the menu's. Today, if I'm watching TV on our D*TiVo upstairs, then yes I do. However, for me the clincher is that I HAVE used the HR20 daily for the past year and I STILL have to sit there and think where certain options are in the menu's. That 'stop and think' on a product I use daily means that the UI needs an overhaul IMO.


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## tiger2005 (Sep 23, 2006)

kmill14 said:


> REALLY? So the next question would be, do they want to? And are they? And if not, why?
> 
> It is funny that so many top wishlist items are from the software DTV decided to get rid of.


I would agree. With the obvious exclusion of patented pieces of TiVo, I don't understand D*'s stubborness/reluctance to use some of these features to allow the HR20 to grow even further. Honestly, can it be anything else than stubborness? The HR20 already bests the TiVo with the PIG/menus, SPEED, and VoD IMO. Why NOT continue to grow the platform by using some of these other features?


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

jgrade said:


> The TiVo UI is much easier and intuitive.
> 
> 1. I think the series link and season pass are a world apart. The HR-20 seres link is VERY awkward. The results are scattered all over the place. On the season pass, searching for a program, for example, results in showings with channel information. I still can;t understand what i am seeing with the search results for series recordings.
> 
> ...


1. SP and SL are very different. I would agree. Neither is better just different. SLs are fewer button pushes than SP. I can be on the guide and press the R button twice and have an SL or press the blue button (mini-guide) then then two Rs. Much faster. If you are search and find a showing you want , then two R pushes and you have an SL. Doesn't seem hard to me.

2. Search? Press Menu and it is right up front 3rd or 4th item

3. I would agree. I would love to be able to see things like the original air date

4. DLB is not coming. without DLB how would switching tuners do anything. You are watching ch 207 on tuner x and then you pick another channel, that is on tuner y. (but your buffer starts fresh on the new channel).

5. When the next national release comes out this will be much improved.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

jwd45244 said:


> 1. SP and SL are very different. I would agree. Neither is better just different. SLs are fewer button pushes than SP. I can be on the guide and press the R button twice and have an SL or press the blue button (mini-guide) then then two Rs. Much faster. If you are search and find a showing you want , then two R pushes and you have an SL. Doesn't seem hard to me.


If you are talking about creating/accessing the SL or SP, I would agree, they are just different. But as far as which is "better", there is no way I can side with Series Link. Until the day comes when the HR-20 knows I recorded and watched show #25 of "name your show here" 2 weeks ago, and decides not to record it again, it will never be as good as the Season Pass. I also am not aware of the SL being able to find the same show somewhere else if a conflict arises and an episode is missed. I do believe Tivo handles this better as well.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

It is strange to have a new product come out with people asking for it to be as good as a product from a decade earlier. However that is what all the polls are saying.

I would ask DIRECTV to first finish the HR20. Here is the current list of missing promised features:

1 *CIR* "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" - manual p. 33 _(14 months...in progress)_
2 Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for "just what you want to watch" p. 31
3 Title Search Autorecord - pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b
4 The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) p. 28.
5 "Select the Scan for Channels button to have the receiver scan local off-air frequencies" p. 78
6 Enable Setup>Display>Screen Centering per p. 28
7 "in 2007...home videos on their TVs directly from Intel® Viiv™ [PCs]" - 2006 Annual Report p. 9.
8 ...in [the] summer...deliver video from websites onto your TV or your PC. 5/9/07 Conference
9 *MRV* Multiroom Viewing ...set-top boxes that feeds multiple TVs...a set-top box that integrates multiple devices 5/9/07 Conference

Details...

Prioritizer Bug
Since there is a back-door trick that works in some cases, it has been argued that this is just a quirk in the prioritizer interface.

Screen Centering
The new H21 has this feature. DIRECTV is going to a consistent user interface across all receivers.

- Craig


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## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

jwd45244 said:


> 1. SP and SL are very different. I would agree. Neither is better just different. SLs are fewer button pushes than SP. I can be on the guide and press the R button twice and have an SL or press the blue button (mini-guide) then then two Rs. Much faster. If you are search and find a showing you want , then two R pushes and you have an SL. Doesn't seem hard to me.
> 
> 2. Search? Press Menu and it is right up front 3rd or 4th item
> 
> ...


1. Yes, pressing rec twice in the guide is a great function, but when setting up a series link after a search, I find confusing with the multiple listings.

2. I meant to say finding the scheduled events not the search. Getting into the scheduled events and prioritizer is not streamlined

4. I am not asking for DLB. Say I am watching a show live and notice the rec light. I like to see what is recording by changing to that tuner. Why do I need to go to the list to see that? Then what if I want to start watching the recording program from the live spot, not the beginning. I need to find the channel and tune to it otherwise I have to start the program and from the list and jump to the live spot. This is cumbersome. Just allow me to tune to the other tuner.

5. I am running 1A6 and I don't see the back button working as smoothly as TiVo.


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## DrummerBoy523 (Jan 9, 2007)

bradfjoh said:


> 5. 50 Season Pass Limit. My wife has shows, I have shows and both my kids have shows... I think it's crazy that my wife can't record all her shows.


LOL!!!:lol:


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm sorry, boss, I can't help ya.
> 
> Maybe I have a preternatural gift for understanding user interfaces, but I find neither the TiVo interface nor the DIRECTV interface particularly difficult.
> 
> ...


Suppose you were not using the official remote, but had coded it into your ONE universal remote. Suppose further that this made the color buttons awkward to use (lacking colored keys). Without the color buttons, how friendly is the HR20?

Sure you can use traditional menu commands, but you find very quickly just how poorly the menus are laid out, because the programmers completely expect the color buttons to be used. Which is not true for people with universal remotes, nor is it true for new or casual users. Something that the developers seem to have forgotten about.

And yes, TiVo erred the other way.


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

I use a Harmony remote, and none of the "colored" buttons are programmed into my first screen of custom buttons at the top of the remote. (the ones that are btw are "back", "slip forward", "List" and one other that I forget right now.

The HR-20 is totally unusable to me, so the colored buttons IMHO are a complete waste. This does magnify the problem of the menu setup for me, which fuels my hatred of the entire interface.


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

Let me suggest that basically no one on this board is a good test case for determining which UI is better for the general populace. This board is dominated by engineers and geeks (present company included) which probably comprise 5% of the general population. Good UI design is an art - not a science. Tivo and Apple both place a large emphasis on style at the very beginning of the design cycle. Is it a coincidence that "average users" love their products? No, it's not.

The HR20 was designed by engineers first with virtually no input from any "artistic" minds. Do I have firsthand knowledge of this? No. I don't need it. It's clunky, it's ugly, it's difficult to navigate. It's typical. It's part of the "other 98% of consumer electronics" that apple and Tivo choose on a daily basis to NOT to be part of.

You can't sit here and bullet point out why a Tivo is better. Grab a hundred people off the street and put them in front of a Tivo and an HR20 and have them rate which is easier to use. Those numbers would not lie.

Which of these appeals to you more?










Can you bullet point it out? Maybe somewhat, but some of it is just good design. It looks good. It feels good in your hand. It's not necessarily tangible. That's what art is about. While maybe only 5% of the population is engineer like - it is a much smaller percentage that can create good art. Unfortunately, the HR20 crew was not able to find any.

Somebody buy the PM of the HR20 a Tom Peters book. Then fire him and go back to the drawing board with someone who truly buys in to that type of design principal.


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## tim99 (Sep 14, 2007)

As good? It should be better than a product that came out 10 years ago.

Why would anyone be happy with a product that isn't better than a model that came out 10 years ago?

I expect my new cell phone, dvd player. computer to all work better than a 10 year old model. In fact I expect them to work better than LAST years model. If not, what is the point of even having one?

I'm not saying one is better or not, but the expectation is they replace my old box with something FAR better than the 10 year old model, not something striving to be as good as.

EDIT: BTW thanks for keeping track of all the stuff that you do. You're an amazing resource.



Milominderbinder2 said:


> It is strange to have a new product come out with people asking for it to be as good as a product from a decade earlier. However that is what all the polls are saying.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

bonscott87 said:


> I do this all the time. See a promo for some upcoming show, cool, pull up the guide or menu and set that to record before I forget and I don't lose what I'm watching. Heck, I do this every Sunday during football. At some point I get bored for a while and I'll pull up the guide and set recordings for movies on the new HD movies channels. Takes 5-10 minutes and I still get to keep up with the game in question. And we rarely watch Live TV except sports.


But if it had the Tivo interface, you wouldn't need to do that. You could pause your show and then go into the menus and set a recording for the promo you just saw. It would take less than 5-10 minutes and you still get to keep up with the game in question (without having to keep track of it in the little box).



richa65 said:


> Let me suggest that basically no one on this board is a good test case for determining which UI is better for the general populace. This board is dominated by engineers and geeks (present company included) which probably comprise 5% of the general population.


I'm not. Heck, I have a hard time checking Email. Maybe only my responses should count


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## solomita (Nov 18, 2005)

cover said:


> On the TiVo, I can press the left arrow to get out of pretty much anything I am doing - from watching a recording to changing buried settings in setup. On the HR20, I've had to learn to press the Stop and Exit buttons along with highlighting and selecting Done in the UI.


I agree with this. I think that if I do something that squishes my program into the top right corner, the program should pause unless it is caught-up live TV.

I'm not big on having the menu button only bring up a subset of the things I can do. I like Tivo's main menu from which you can reach anything. And also that whatever I was doing pauses when I go to the menus, and resume from place, and that when I return to a particular menu it remembers where I was the last time around, e.g. the playlist.

Items that I'm recording as a manual recording do not get grouped into a folder. CORRECTION: this is because I watch some shows that air Monday through Thursday, so I had to set up 4 separate manual recordings. Tivo brought them all together but the HR20 seems to bring them into 4 separate folders, which is kinda weird. I only just noticed because I only just fell behind enough to have a full week still unviewed.

When I was first setting up my recordings, and things got complicated with overlaps, I noticed sometimes that the conflicts wouldn't be flagged immediately, or that the loser in a conflict would not immediately be rescheduled to record at a later airing. I wouldnt' say that I experimented enough to really know what was happening.

Also, when browsing upcominng airings of a program, the entries weren't always correctly labeled as to whether they would be recorded.


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## Dusty (Sep 21, 2006)

I don't miss Tivo before I read this thread. I remember I liked it a lot. But I really have no trouble using the new UI. After reading this thread and being reminded of how I did it with Tivo, I have to say Tivo is slightly better. Here are some that I really really miss.
- Guide
- Trick play (slow motion, separate jump button)
- CC at FF1
- DLB


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I am in complete agreement, and have posted before, that TiVo has a better remote. DIRECTV needs to work hard in that area and they could grab quite a following if they did.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am in complete agreement, and have posted before, that TiVo has a better remote. DIRECTV needs to work hard in that area and they could grab quite a following if they did.


Does Tivo offer an RF remote?

Thanks


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> Does Tivo offer an RF remote?
> 
> Thanks


They would need a RF receiver first.


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## Leftcoastdave (Apr 2, 2004)

Not to pile on, but I find it fascinating that the concensus of this entire thread is that the Tivo interface is more intuitive and easier to use than the HR20 for a multiplicity of reasons. FWIW, I posted my top 15 grievances back in the first page or so.

I did want to add some anecdotal evidence. My wife is a relatively new DVR user. She has had a Tivo for about a year. Before that she refused to learn how to operate our ReplayTV's and Tivo's. She often referred to me in public and her universal remote control.

Last Friday I replaced her first and only Tivo/DVR with an HR20-100. Despite a rigorous and patient training session where I showed her the basics of the new device, she is struggling mightily to use the HR20. After five days she has actually started to regress and is using some profanity of the likes I have not heard since my days in the US Army.

She is a bright lady and to her credit she is not throwing in the towel by asking to get her Tivo back, but it is clear to me she is struggling to make the transition.


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## rossgs (Dec 23, 2006)

The TIVO DVR remote control could control on/off of my satellite receiver, my audio receiver and my tv with one button. The HR20 remote requires three buttons to do the same thing.

The TIVO could search much better on keyword. I just got a new HR20 and I am not getting the same programs at all.

There is no equivalent of a season pass with the HR20

Who would intuitively expect a button marked "LIST" to show programs previously recorded - LIST OF WHAT PRAYTELL!


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

Leftcoastdave said:


> Not to pile on, but I find it fascinating that the concensus of this entire thread is that the Tivo interface is more intuitive and easier to use than the HR20 for a multiplicity of reasons. FWIW, I posted my top 15 grievances back in the first page or so.
> 
> I did want to add some anecdotal evidence. My wife is a relatively new DVR user. She has had a Tivo for about a year. Before that she refused to learn how to operate our ReplayTV's and Tivo's. She often referred to me in public and her universal remote control.
> 
> ...


Just tell her to keep hitting the menu button. :lol:


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am in complete agreement, and have posted before, that TiVo has a better remote. DIRECTV needs to work hard in that area and they could grab quite a following if they did.


I kind of disagree. It's not the remote that's the problem, it's the assumption by the HR20 programmers that everyone is using the official remote with it's color keys. Because if they are using a Harmony, or nearly any other universal remote, those color keys are VERY hard to reproduce, starting with the on-key colors.

Not that they should use those keys, but they shouldn't assume that there is no need to provide a workable alternate system using the arrow, select and other keys that are found on nearly every remote (since the original D* RCA remote). Currently the menu-driven structure blows if you aren't using the color keys.

And, even if you are using the official remote, the various uses of the color keys are not strictly intuitive. More like "Hey, let's use yellow for this right here." Which makes the color keys hard to learn, and probably a lot of folks give up and just use the menus, which still blow.


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## JAYPB (May 8, 2002)

Jafo350 said:


> 1. Tivo Live Guide is much easier to use and much more informative, more channels and more hours on screen
> 2. Wishlist: type in the name of a program and set it to record even if it is'nt in the guide
> 3. Now Playing List : pick a show, watch and delete, when you go back to the list you are right where you left off, not back at the very top like on the HR20
> 4. Dual Live Buffers: and both can be paused. Then when you go back to the show it is still paused if you didnt run out of buffer
> ...


For me, #3 is HUGE WRT the HR20 vs HR10 comparison. On my HR20, I tried recording a daily sports highlights show....which I would view/watch every 4-5 days...and it became a CHORE to make sure I was deleting the correct show when I came out (hit stop) OR, after I deleted a viewing I had to REMEMBER that I was back at the top of the folder and therefore had to "go" to the correct day in the folder to get the next day's show....

And #4 is an obvious need in my household, where although we WATCH tons of stuff we've recorded...when the kids are in the kitchen eating breakfast and they want to watch Sponge Bob and my wife wants to see the news, we set both tuners on the hr10 to each channel...and flip flop back and forth so everyone is happy on commercial breaks (seamlessly, without having to hit record on both channels and then start/stop at different points and waste time....because isn't time the new currency ?!?!?!) :grin:

Also, for me, the FF speed leaves me wanting in comparison to the HR10. 3x speed on the HR10 was about 60x (i.e. 1 minute of show per second of FF'ing) whereas 3x speed on the HR20 is about 45x...and 4x is about 90x...so it's hard for me to "view" what I need to see at 90x on the HR20 and 3x "just isn't fast enough" to skim through when the wife is screaming upstairs that dinner is ready, or the kids are beating the crap out of each other and I'm trying to fly through 5 days worth of SportsCenter and get up there as quickly as I can!!!! 60X seemed perfect for me to view highlight shows/Leno/Conan...but 45x is too slow (too damn impatient) and 90x is too fast to actually "see" what might interest me.


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## ATARI (May 10, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> I kind of disagree. It's not the remote that's the problem, it's the assumption by the HR20 programmers that everyone is using the official remote with it's color keys. Because if they are using a Harmony, or nearly any other universal remote, those color keys are VERY hard to reproduce, starting with the on-key colors.
> 
> Not that they should use those keys, but they shouldn't assume that there is no need to provide a workable alternate system using the arrow, select and other keys that are found on nearly every remote (since the original D* RCA remote). Currently the menu-driven structure blows if you aren't using the color keys.
> 
> And, even if you are using the official remote, the various uses of the color keys are not strictly intuitive. More like "Hey, let's use yellow for this right here." Which makes the color keys hard to learn, and probably a lot of folks give up and just use the menus, which still blow.


+1

I have had to get pretty inventive of assigning keys of my universal remote to the color keys of the HR20 remote.


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## belunos (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm late to the party, and skipped about 4-5 pages, but here's my list anyway.

First, It'd be nice to be able to turn off that little screen playing whatever is on when you're in a menu or list. I say this because often they'll be something recording, and if I'm not fast, I'll end up catching some of it. I hate catching snippets of something, then watching it later.

When I hit List on the remote while watching something, it'd be nice if it would ask me if I want to delete the program I'm watching. I can do this if I hit stop, but it takes me all the way out.. I just want to go back to list, and not have to delete the show by hand. I'm not sure if this made any sense 

I know this has been talked about, but for Pete's sake, stop trying to record stuff on channels I don't get!

Give me an option to record up to 10 items of a program. 5 isn't enough, and 'All' is too many.

Make the scheduler easier to deal with. Show me what I have set to record, whether or not it's coming on soon.

Let me use the left and right arrows to represent Back and Select.

I guess it all boils down to intuitiveness. I think a large part that separates the two units is how things are displayed. On the 20, I can't differentiate a lot of different screens.. am I on list? Am I on search? To do? They all kind of run together. You can't flip from the top of an item in a list to the bottom by simply pressing the up arrow. That sort of thing.


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## osultan (Feb 23, 2007)

I am not married to either UI--they are both workable. I used to like TiVo simply because it is familiar--having had the HR-20 are the primary DVR for a couple of months now, it is a wash.

My ultimate judge of these things is my (non-technical) wife. She only cares that her shows get recorded. Thankfully the HR20 has been solid on this front as long as KOVR is cooperating. I simply switched from the Hr10 to the HR20 one day and she had no prob making a switch.

That being said, there are a couple nits on each side:

HR20:
+ Way faster
+ Some things like recording and SL is easier

HR10 (TiVo):
+ Response to remote is crisper, especially with trick-play
+ Better consistency of button functions across menus (someone else bought up the different ways to delete)
+ GUI is much better to look at--DTV could use a more subtle palette and discover textures

I actually think the HR20 folks are trying to be more innovative (although some of the features are a little rough around the edges). I think the Tivo folks are hemmed in by their current success, since any significant changes are sure to raise a howl from their dedicated user-base.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

rossgs said:


> There is no equivalent of a season pass with the HR20


There are called Series Links on the HR20. I suspect you may have been referring to suggestions or Whish Lists.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Personally I've never encountered a better designed easy to use remote that the Tivo peanut. These remotes are truely incredible.



kcmurphy88 said:


> And, even if you are using the official remote, the various uses of the color keys are not strictly intuitive. More like "Hey, let's use yellow for this right here." Which makes the color keys hard to learn, and probably a lot of folks give up and just use the menus, which still blow.


This is why I chose the Harmony Xbox remote - it has the color buttons.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

belunos said:



> First, It'd be nice to be able to turn off that little screen playing whatever is on when you're in a menu or list. I say this because often they'll be something recording, and if I'm not fast, I'll end up catching some of it. I hate catching snippets of something, then watching it later.


:up: :up: :up: The pig is a love/hate thing - this is the hate part.



belunos said:


> Give me an option to record up to 10 items of a program. 5 isn't enough, and 'All' is too many.


:up: I agree. I've needed 10 a few times and I believe the Tivo offers it.



belunos said:


> Let me use the left and right arrows to represent Back and Select.


:up: :up: Well we got the left = back in the CE, just need to add right = select too. Once again I believe the Tivo already does this.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Sirshagg said:


> :up: I agree. I've needed 10 a few times and I believe the Tivo offers it.


Not the D*TiVo


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## Jafo350 (May 26, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> 1 *CIR* "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" p. 33 _(14 months...in progress)_
> 2 Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for "just what you want to watch" p. 31
> 3 Title Search Autorecord - pp. 20 & 31
> 4 The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) p. 28.
> ...


I hate to change the subject here but:
In regards to reading the manual to learn how to operate a new device, how does one explain that the 6 items listed above (which are in the operators manual) do not work properly, or at all


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## tooloud10 (Sep 23, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Not the D*TiVo


My HR10-250 must be broken. I have "Comedy Central Presents" set to keep 10 episodes at all times.


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## belunos (Oct 6, 2007)

tooloud10 said:


> My HR10-250 must be broken. I have "Comedy Central Presents" set to keep 10 episodes at all times.


Yea, my plain jane D*tivo has it to


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Hmmm, I guess I must be remembering wrong (I leave setting up the Season Passes to my wife most of the time).


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

> 1 *CIR* "Display only the channels that are in your current subscription package" - manual p. 33 _(14 months...in progress)_
> 2 Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter to Search for "just what you want to watch" manual p. 31
> 3 Title Search Autorecord - manual pp. 20 & 31 & release notes for 0x115, 0x119, & 0x11b
> 4 The ability to edit "all the programs" in the Prioritizer (even when there are no upcoming episodes) manual p. 28.
> ...





Jafo350 said:


> I hate to change the subject here but:
> In regards to reading the manual to learn how to operate a new device, how does one explain that the 6 items listed above (which are in the operators manual) do not work properly, or at all


That is the point. The manual says that the HR20 can do these things but it can not do any of them.

- Craig


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Hmmm, I guess I must be remembering wrong (I leave setting up the Season Passes to my wife most of the time).


Recent code change


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

It should be noted, also, that the HR20 has had the benefit of a MASSIVE group effort to update it, with intensive programming efforts from D*. There have been numerous releases, not to mention maybe 50 beta vesions distributed in the past year.

In that time, the HR10 has had one upgrade, with fairly minor extensions added.

So, we are comparing D*s best effort with the newest software designed for the current D* system ... with a two year old product that has been neglected and intentionally marginalized by Murdoch's DirecTV.

And many still prefer the obsolete product. Even if the HR20 wins 60-40, the fact that it's not the clear, overwhelming and undisputed winner should be cause for serious reflection on D*s part.

I absolutely guarantee that an announcement by D* that they had a modern TiVo HD available for their full system, with many of the additional features now found on stand-alone TiVos (read: network) and they'd have a very powerful customer-magnet that their competitors couldn't touch.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

TiVo "gets" some things more.

For example. Let's say you're recording two shows at 8. You come home at 8:30 and want to start watching them. You turn on the TV and PVR and right up there in the corner, you are seeing the MIDDLE of one of your two shows when you haven't even seen the start yet. It is near impossible to get to playing a recorded show without watching a bit of what is being recorded right now. This is horrible for things like sports.

The 6 second backup (I call it circle back). This is often used to back up if you overrun a block of commercials. Well, on a Tivo, when you press circle back, it IMMEDIATELY blacks out the screen. This is good, since you've overrun into the show, and you often want to roll back without seeing "spoilers" of what's coming up. The PVR should immediately blank the screen and cut the audio when you press circle back, instead of freezing on what you were on until the new play point is ready.

If I press list and I have 3 new episodes of a show. If I select one and start watching it, then I press stop because I didn't want to watch that one, I get back to the episode description. A press of "Back" takes me back to live TV, if I want to watch the other episodes in that list, I have to navigate back to it again. I already have an overriding "exit" button, it should return to the screen where I played the show from when I press stop. If I want to go back to live TV, I'll press "exit".

Also, the menu that the "menu" button brings up is confusing. It has a strange mix of always there things (like setup) and contextual things (like configuring the guide if at the guide or "keep until..." if playing a stored video.

When you search for a show on the HR20, it is a total disaster. When you find it, it shows what channel it is on. But if the show isn't marked as HD, and the channel is available in HD and not (like USA) with the same channel number, you can't tell which is recording on USAHD and which is on USA. So you select the show. Now it shows the channel name by the number, but you'd better know "SF2" is the SD channel and "KTVU" is the HD channel.

Selecting video format on the HR20 is a disaster. It's like 12 button presses to change modes, if you go past, it's 11 presses to get back. And it's slow to respond while doing it.

The HR20 does do some stuff better. On a Tivo, you cannot view the channel guide without watching Live TV behind it. That means if you're in the middle of a show you're recording, you have to either wait until it's over before scheduling future things to record or go to the "Search" function. On the HR20, if you press guide while watching a recording, the guide comes up over the recording, as it should.

The function of selecting a channel number in the guide and pressing "info" to bring up a list of what will be on a channel going forward is fantastic. It brings the best parts of the "TiVo Live Guide" to the calendar-style grid.

The ability to go to future showings or record a series link from a show you have already recorded and are watching is fantastic. I can record a show, and if I like it, easily schedule a series link of it without having to re-search it.

The HR20 sure does manipulate series links (season passes) faster.

Obviously the UI on the HR20 is ugly and has crappy piecemeal scrolling at times. It's embarrassing, but it is workable. Also, the blue ring on the front is unbelievable. Who thought that was a good thing? I do have it turned off, but it should always be off or at least a lot dimmer.


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Also, the blue ring on the front is unbelievable. Who thought that was a good thing? I do have it turned off, but it should always be off or at least a lot dimmer.


It wasn't until recently that you could even get blue and white LEDs. Now I guess everyone has to use them because they're flashy, but most of us don't care for a pile of bright LEDs in the corner of our eye while watching TV in a dark room. The HR20 is far from the only offender here.


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## mpoyner (Aug 17, 2006)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> I don't think you'll get your answers Earl, because IMHO, to really get at the usability issues, you need to be someone who doesn't post on these boards. My parents are a good example... love the Tivo not the HR20.


Absolutely! Best post in this thread. The fact is that I have to remind myself on an almost daily basis (I'm a web UI/Interface designer) that it does not matter even 1 tiny little bit whether what I'm designing makes sense to me. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to the 10 people I work closely with here at work.

I MUST user test this in a real-world testing environment, while observing the users EVERY button click, every pause while navigating, every confused look or observation. I MUST record these user testing sessions, both on paper and on video if possible. I MUST go back and make adjustments and then user test again.

The reason for this is that myself and the folks I work with are apparently high-end interface users. We are constantly amazed at the small details that throw people off when they are trying to navigate a software or web app. Navigation conventions that you and I may find to be obvious, are not always obvious to the "lowest common denominator" user. And here's the thing: it's not their fault, and they should have to just learn to live with the problems. I should fix them. It's my job.

The problem is (and I also experience this here at work) that most 1's and 0's programmers either NEVER user-test their creations, or consider a nationally-release product to be a user test, such as what happened with the HR20. (I know there were internal betas before national realease, but internal betas are not good user-testing scenarios, for the reasons I've stated above.)

So, my point is that there a LOT of usability issues that any good UI/Interface designer would have put a stop to right away. These are issues that most of us power users on this site will be able to work around and not really even notice them as problems, but the general public certainly will. There is no way that the original HR20 design team included a competent UI specialist.


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## tpm1999 (Sep 5, 2006)

This might sound bad...and I might get alot of people mad at me...but the answer is simple...

Some people might think Tivo is better because the animated menus are better.

On my tivo sd box, the animated menus are fast, make sense, and give a sense that you are heading in the correct area of the menu that you want. It also give a fast audible bing when moving through menus

HR20s animated menus are slow, dont give a sense of direction (except scrolling down on channel list), and loves to create screen tearing. Also the only audible noise is when the box thinks you are doing something wrong.

Although the new color scheme is much improved, if directv wants to goto the next level, they need to steal someone from Apple or some other company that loves to give the best UI possible.


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## uncrph90 (Aug 29, 2002)

kcmurphy88 said:


> It should be noted, also, that the HR20 has had the benefit of a MASSIVE group effort to update it, with intensive programming efforts from D*. There have been numerous releases, not to mention maybe 50 beta vesions distributed in the past year.
> 
> In that time, the HR10 has had one upgrade, with fairly minor extensions added.
> 
> ...


+1

Earl, in trying to answer your original question, I think the Tivo=Mac and HR20=Windows analogy is a good one. The Tivo interface is simplistic, perhaps even condescending to the majority of us (geeky types) but manna from heaven to our wives, parents, and "normal" friends. Eg: My wife is very smart (BS, Registered Nurse, graduated with honors) HATES the HR20 and asks at least once a week why we stopped using our HDTivo. All she is willing to do is go to the playlist and pick recorded shows. I have shown her several times how to set up SL's and search. "It's too hard--the other box was easy." This is quickly followed by a request for me to be sure and "have it record ________ for me tonight, I don't know how to do it." And we've had 3 HR20's since they came out!

The HR20 does a lot very well and I enjoy it, but it isn't intuiative. The Tivo UI will only "allow" you to go down certain paths--you can't easily get "lost". I won't claim it is perfect, but the Tivo philosophy of "holding your hand" is more acceptable to many users. I know a lot of power users here find it annoying and love the freedom to explore the HR20 UI to find out what it can do, but a lot of people just want to watch last night's episode of Lost, and want to make sure it recorded and aren't worried about streaming audio or music (very cool however) to their TV.

I'm trying not to argue about what the boxes do, instead how we interact with them. Earl, your mention of Tivo being like a window's wizard is another good analogy. You may not need a "wizard" every time you set up a SL, but some people do--and they are lost on a HR20 a lot of the time. I REALLY appreciate what the design team is trying to do with the CE forum and responding to problems/feedback on features and performance. I do believe that rethinking the philosophy of the UI would be a good idea, and exploring bringing Tivo back (even at a premium price to the subscriber) would be a GREAT idea.

I am a realist and understand how unlikely that is...

Quick list of my personal preferences on features. (Patents not withstanding)

Tivo Pluses:
DLB
Suggestions :up: :up: :up: 
Guide (descriptions, use, Channels I Get, Favorites)
Search (mostly b/c of superior guide)
Remote
Record to VCR (no onscreen displays)
Trick Play (esp 30 sec skip)
Hackability (for me just bigger Hard Drives--I never did the network stuff)
Play List sorting (alphabetical in list of shows, chronological in folders--it cant' be that hard!)

Negatives:
Speed (Would be improved in a hypothetical newer box if I designed it  )
No MPEG4 (see note for Speed   )

HR20 Pluses:
Speed
MPEG4
Networking
ESata
Power User Features (one touch record/two touch SL, etc.)
CE program and DirecTV's efforts to improve (a lot of hope here  )

Negatives:
Most of the Tivo Positives (Guide, Remote, Search, etc.)
Inability to turn of PIG (I like it--but would like a toggle)
CC menu steps

Featurewise only--I believe the HR20 could be a "better" DVR than a Tivo, but without a UI philosophy change, people like my wife will never really like it. I've never used an UltimateTV, but hear a lot of good things about that interface--I don't believe that Tivo has a monopoly on good software, but the HR20 UI isn't the best option for a huge segment of the subscriber base.


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## gatorbait2 (Sep 3, 2007)

cartrivision said:


> No the Tivo is a 5 bladed knife where each blade unfolds out of the case in the exact way and as you would expect them to when you look at the knife, while the HR20 is a 5 bladed knife where one blade folds out, one shoots out of the end by spring mechanism when you press on both sides of the knife, one is hidden in a compartment on one end of the knife case that can be opened by pushing it down and then turning it counterclockwise one quarter turn, one is in a compartment that is revealed by sliding the side of the case perpendicular to the length of the knife, and one rotates out automatically "switch blade style" when you press on the little plastic logo on the side of the knife which is really the disguised switchblade release button.


Thanks for the great laugh. This is similar to how I feel as well.

We switched to the HR20 about 2 months ago now. I (geek type) have adjusted reasonably well although I still prefer the TiVo. Slow motion, DLB, Frame by Frame Advance, 30 second slip, the remote are all better with the TiVo.

My wife justs looks at the HR20 as a mystery. I remember her battling to learn the TiVo for a day or two, but not two months.

My three year old has been most interesting. He never asked questions about the TiVo and could always get where he wanted. He also never asks questions about his iPod touch or my iPhone and always gets around.

This new "TiVo" is a different story. He gets stuck with this DVR more than any other device he uses. He keeps asking to get the old TiVo back.

This forum has been great to help with questions, but I just wish we still could use the TiVo interface.


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## HaRrrgh20! (Jan 22, 2007)

- Wishlists that work. Tivo almost always records all of my sporting events without me doing ANYTHING. The only excpetion is when a game is on multiple channels that I normally receive and Tivo picks the out-of-market sports channel that's blacked out for the game itself. For the HR20 I have to manually record every sporting event - Autorecord is absolutely useless. Wishlists also work very well for finding something that might not come on for months. I have set wishlists for movies that were found months later at 2AM. I know this is supposed to get better on the HR20 with CIG, but I'd still rather be able to restrict a Autorecord/wishlist to a specif favorities list (HDTV, for example).

- List guide. Much better presentation of information.

- Dual Live Buffers. Really handy this time of year with baseball and football both on.

- User Interface. Tivo is still more intuitive and consistent. My wife hates the HR20 UI.

- 30 Second skip, not slip. I hate wating for the slip. I also like the Tivo audio feedback

- No Picture-in-Guide. I do like the picture in guide with the HR20 most of the time, but not when I turn on a sporting event that stated an hour ago.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

I said it in another thread but I'll repeat it here too. The guide data on the non-Tivo DVRs is not as complete as on the Tivos. Movie year as well as cast and director info is often missing on th D* DVRs while for the same airing it is present on the D* Tivos, and of course the D* DVRs never have the "original air date" information like the Tivos do.


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## ischmidt (Oct 10, 2007)

Agreed with everyone calling for professional non-people-on-this-board usability testing. My mother can barely operate a Windows PC, but she was a "power user" on her DirecTivo less than 48 hours after install. Season passes, wishlists, reordering priorities, trick play, the whole 9 yards.

That said, the HR20 is so close in some areas that it's frustrating when the software doesn't cross the finish line.

Specific issues I have with it:

- Adding series links via the search function is all but unusable.
- The menu you get from the "menu" button is almost incomprehensible without some sort of guide in hand. It's simply hard to figure out what takes you where.
- There needs to be an option to turn off the live picture while you're in the guide/menus. I've been accidentally "spoilered" on multiple shows since installing the HR20, and it's really annoying.
- The remote is an ergonomic nightmare compared to the TiVo peanut. Even my 1997 Sony SAT-B1 battletank (still in use in a bedroom and working fine - they don't make 'em like that anymore) had a better remote.
- TiVo could to an extent be operated by sound effects. The HR20 seemingly only has a sound for "error", which isn't as useful.

Things I already love:
- Record twice on the guide to add a series link. Yes, please.
- +/- 12 hour buttons on the guide.
- Faster navigation once you turn off animation (that should be off by default)
- On-screen caller ID. I get telemarketed plenty, and it's great to keep my butt planeted firmly on the couch when I get calls I don't want to pick up.

And I'm sure I'll love the MPEG4 when I get a 5-LNB dish


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

On paper, the HR20 would appear to have a major advantage. In reality, the TiVo is FAR better! The reason: TiVos work. 

The HR20 locks up too often while even trying to perform basic DVR functions. Thus the need for a reset button on the front panel. I think I'll have to have the spring in that red button replaced soon!


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... So hitting LIVE TV button twice, to toggle between tuners on the DirecTivo... is "intuitive"... ?


maybe not, but Tivo tells you about the functionality. I know I found out about DLBs because the Tivo banner said "hit down to switch to the other tuner" and it said what was on the other tuner. Very user friendly.


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## tooloud10 (Sep 23, 2007)

kcmurphy88 said:


> It wasn't until recently that you could even get blue and white LEDs. Now I guess everyone has to use them because they're flashy, but most of us don't care for a pile of bright LEDs in the corner of our eye while watching TV in a dark room. The HR20 is far from the only offender here.


No, but it's definitely the *worst* offender...I set my HR20 up in a fully-lit room and the first thing I had to do was check the forum for instructions on turning the dumb LEDs off.

Actually, now that you mention it, I've realized that that stupid blue circle bothers me for more than just the super-bright LEDs...it's representative of everything D* did wrong with the HR20. For example, after a year they've still not resolved the missed recordings issue, but they didn't forget to make the LED circle spin when you FF through a program. Thank god for that... <rolls eyes>

Another one: they didn't seem to worry that pressing the pause button may or may not pause the program immediately, but at least they had the foresight to make the blue ring pulse while in the pause mode.

IOW, they had the opportunity to do great things with this box, but they seem more concerned about making it shiny and trendy.


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## rkreitl (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't care about Tivo, the name or the dancing guy. I have two items I consider important.

1) Dependability: I upgraded 2 HR10s to HR20s but still have a few SD Tivos. The one thing my family agrees on is the HR20 isn't even close to being as dependable as a DTivo.

Last night we watched The Office from Thursday. The play started about two minutes or so into the show. I RR'ed back and saw there was another minute prior to the start point of the playback. But once I hit the beginning of the recording the unit immediately jumped back to the original starting place. I tried using the jump back and with jump back, once I got to the beginning it once again jumped forward to it's original starting point. After 3-4 times I managed to use the jump back button to get to a point just after the beginning of the show but didn't hit the beginning of the show so we could watch as much as possible. My SD Tivo had the entire show.

Last week our recording of The Office showed a length of 1:01. I thought good, we got the whole show. Started watching it and we were a bit confused, but it's The Office. Eventually we got 25 minutes into The Office and it ended. The remaining 35 minutes was ER. My SD Tivo had the entire show.

Those are some of the problems we've encountered. In addition to shows ALWAYS starting late (we have two HR20s and when recording the same shows on both units they have never started at the same spot - typically 10 seconds difference). We have missed shows in which the HISTORY screen shows some lame error (ERROR 3) or something like that.

Luckily we have two SD DTivos setup to backup our HR20s and they have never had any of the problems I've mentioned above. (Although I'm not sure why I'm paying $4.99x2 a month for SD Tivos to backup my HR20s).

2) Functionality: 
- The UI is really bad. Colors are not at all soothing or comfortable. In fact that Blue/white scheme is very harsh.
- The routes one must take to get to a specific menu item look as if the menu wasn't even designed for a DVR. Opps, I guess it wasn't.
- Trick play is really bad. SLIP is lame and the jump back seems to jump around 2-3 times after it jumps back before it starts playing. Slow Motion????? Who ever approved Slo-Mo to work as implemented should be fired immediately. Who ever suggested it should be stoned.

In fact the slo-mo problem really explains many other problems I have with this DVR over my Tivos. D* wanted all their receivers to have the same look and feel. So that meant since there wasn't a slo-mo button on their 5 year old remote (that must have been designed by retarded chimps) their DVR also wouldn't have a slo-mo button. What great D* rocket scientist came up with the idea that their remote and UI should be the same between devices? That's much the same as saying the interior of a Ford Fusion should be the same as the interior of a Ford F-350 SuperDuty. If you wanted to pattern a receivers remote/UI after a DVR's remote/UI with features removed, that's fine. But to pattern a DVR's remote/UI after a receivers remote/UI is plainly the work of idiots.

The only thing I can ask is what were those DVR development folks smoking in the early days?

To answer the original question, my DTivos are easier to use (left/right buttons) and they are reliable. My HR20s are not.

A message to D*: Don't worry about VOD/DOD/whatever. Just get my HR20's to record what I tell them to record, without starting late or ending early and get them to play back what was recorded properly.


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## rkreitl (Aug 24, 2007)

tooloud10 said:


> No, but it's definitely the *worst* offender...I set my HR20 up in a fully-lit room and the first thing I had to do was check the forum for instructions on turning the dumb LEDs off.
> 
> Actually, now that you mention it, I've realized that that stupid blue circle bothers me for more than just the super-bright LEDs...it's representative of everything D* did wrong with the HR20. For example, after a year they've still not resolved the missed recordings issue, but they didn't forget to make the LED circle spin when you FF through a program. Thank god for that... <rolls eyes>
> 
> ...


Typical....form before substance. Just like working on DOD before fixing the recording problems.


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## rkreitl (Aug 24, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Umm... So hitting LIVE TV button twice, to toggle between tuners on the DirecTivo... is "intuitive"... ?


You have two sources of Live Tv on your Tivo, no? So pressing the Live TV button to flip between those two live sources seems intuitive to me.

But then again pressing colored buttons would solve that, right?


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

rkreitl said:


> You have two sources of Live Tv on your Tivo, no? So pressing the Live TV button to flip between those two live sources seems intuitive to me.
> 
> But then again pressing colored buttons would solve that, right?


Actually, pressing the DOWN ARROW in Live TV swaps tuners on the D*TiVo. UP ARROW changes resolution, IIRC. Not impossible to remember if those functions are important to you. And they work pretty much the same regardless of what remote you are using. Something those color buttons DO NOT do, ever.


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

I find the HR20 UI really frustrating to use. I accept it might be because I came from the Tivo. The Tivo has a nice "home page" that you get from pretty much anywhere by hitting the Tivo button. When I got the HR20, I remember looking around for ages to find the "playlist", somehow "list" was not obvious.

The Tivo menu is well thought out and the context options are really useful and the defaults are great. The HR20 just seems like I'm stepping back 10 years - the glaring blue/yellow theme does not help.

feel like the HR20 has a UI written by programmers, where the Tivo UI was designed by users. I was trying to figure out what the HR20 color scheme/menus reminded me of - I think I got it. I


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## kmill14 (Jun 12, 2007)

tuff bob said:


> I find the HR20 UI really frustrating to use. I accept it might be because I came from the Tivo. The Tivo has a nice "home page" that you get from pretty much anywhere by hitting the Tivo button. When I got the HR20, I remember looking around for ages to find the "playlist", somehow "list" was not obvious.
> 
> The Tivo menu is well thought out and the context options are really useful and the defaults are great. The HR20 just seems like I'm stepping back 10 years - the glaring blue/yellow theme does not help.
> 
> feel like the HR20 has a UI written by programmers, where the Tivo UI was designed by users. I was trying to figure out what the HR20 color scheme/menus reminded me of - I think I got it. I


CLASSIC!


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Perhaps it's just me but on the Tivo coming out of FFW I could 99.9% of the time come out and be right where I wanted to be. On the HR20 I only seem to come out of FFW .01% of the time at the correct place. I'm constantly backing up, moving forwards, backing up afterwards to get to the rught spot. It's getting rather frustrating.


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## Rockermann (Aug 9, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> Perhaps it's just me but on the Tivo coming out of FFW I could 99.9% of the time come out and be right where I wanted to be. On the HR20 I only seem to come out of FFW .01% of the time at the correct place. I'm constantly backing up, moving forwards, backing up afterwards to get to the rught spot. It's getting rather frustrating.


Same here. The 3x speed on the HR20 seems to be a bit slower than the 3x speed on the Tivo. It takes noticeably longer to get through commercial breaks. I'm still trying to get this speed difference ingrained in my brain so that I can end up on the start of the show. I'm getting better, but I still miss more often than not. The 4x speed is way to fast to even get close.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

I have very few grips with the HR20 interface, but there are a few:

Slow Motion is just not easy to get working. I should not have to spend two minutes trying to get slow motion for a few seconds of a game.
Skip-to-tick should be easier to use.
Channels I get should have been fixed by now. This is a PR disaster. I subscribe to the highest package with HD and DVR. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to not want to see a bunch of channels I can't get.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Ditto on the skip to tick. I hate it because it never works right. I wish it was like TIVO: when FFing at any speed, just press the 30-second advance button and voila! You're at the next tick mark. When rewinding at any speed, press the same 30-second skip button and boom! You're at the previous tick mark. Can't get much easier than that.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gregjones said:


> Channels I get should have been fixed by now. This is a PR disaster. I subscribe to the highest package with HD and DVR. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to not want to see a bunch of channels I can't get.


How is this a PR disaster?
Outside of this forum... I don't think I have seen a single article that focuses in on that particular feature.

I bet you the VAST majority of the people dont' even realize that feature is semi-functional at this point... and even when it is fully re-enabled, they still won't notice.

If you don't want to see them.... edit your filter list (which is what I suspect most people do).


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## marksrader (Sep 14, 2006)

Along the same line here my biggest complaint that should have been fixed is the system recording channels I don't receive. This never happens on my TIVO. What makes it a big issue is that it occupies tuner time that could be spent recording channels I do get. It messes up my tuner scheduling too. I mean how hard could it be to tie the tuners to my currently active favorites list??? :grin:


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

marksrader said:


> Along the same line here my biggest complaint that should have been fixed is the system recording channels I don't receive. This never happens on my TIVO. What makes it a big issue is that it occupies tuner time that could be spent recording channels I do get. It messes up my tuner scheduling too. I mean how hard could it be to tie the tuners to my currently active favorites list??? :grin:


For a while my Tivo was recording suggestions on channels that i didn;t get. But then the HR20 doesn't have this feature so we don't have to worry abou that.


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## Leftcoastdave (Apr 2, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you don't want to see them.... edit your filter list (which is what I suspect most people do).


Pardon my ignorance, but how do I use the filter list to eliminate unreceived channels?

Does this work across all menu items such as searches and guides?

Thx.

Dave


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## jheda (Sep 19, 2006)

I created a custom list which u can do from the menu bar, and then you check off only the channels u get, or the channels u want etc. For me that resolved the issue, but im sure for many their are concerns for this workaround.



Leftcoastdave said:


> Pardon my ignorance, but how do I use the filter list to eliminate unreceived channels?
> 
> Does this work across all menu items such as searches and guides?
> 
> ...


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> How is this a PR disaster?
> Outside of this forum... I don't think I have seen a single article that focuses in on that particular feature.
> 
> I bet you the VAST majority of the people dont' even realize that feature is semi-functional at this point... and even when it is fully re-enabled, they still won't notice.
> ...


Because folks that are new subscribers (not from the forums) that said "I want all the channels" spend time scrolling through channels they can't get. I have heard this a number of times firsthand regarding HD DNS channels, foreign language programming channels, etc.

I know how to make a favorites list, but this default to show all channels regardless of the ability to receive them is not good.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

gregjones said:


> Because folks that are new subscribers (not from the forums) that said "I want all the channels" spend time scrolling through channels they can't get. I have heard this a number of times firsthand regarding HD DNS channels, foreign language programming channels, etc.
> 
> I know how to make a favorites list, but this default to show all channels regardless of the ability to receive them is not good.


Default of show all is called advertizing... see all those movies you could watch for a few $ more?


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

I owned several DTivos and an R15. 

When I got the Tivos, I never read the directions, but quickly figured out how to use it...

The r15 required referring to the manual repeatedly to figure out how to do things..

If you gave the average person who has never used either product both remotes and asked them to do various tasks, like recording, "season passes", searches, etc. I would expect that the Tivo would be rated easier and more intuitive..


And with regard to DLB..I think that for many switching between two tuners via the Tivo is intuitive. With the DVR plus line, it is not..

How many times do you see the question: " how do I know what's on the other tuner?" or "How do I switch to the other tuner?"


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## Splendor (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ken -
> For #3: They have at least made that consistant now, with the RED Button Delete (and key for it on the bottom of the screen) for all of those areas... if not national, it will be in the next national release (I lose track of what is NR and what is CE)


Yes, but the menu it still contextual which is not easier to use. On TiVo, you hit Menu and you get the same menu no matter what you were doing before.


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## Splendor (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> How is this a PR disaster?
> Outside of this forum... I don't think I have seen a single article that focuses in on that particular feature.
> 
> I bet you the VAST majority of the people dont' even realize that feature is semi-functional at this point... and even when it is fully re-enabled, they still won't notice.
> ...


lol..."it's not a disaster...people are too stupid to notice." :lol:


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

hoopsbwc34 said:


> Sometimes it feels like the HR20 was designed by computer programers, and the Tivo interface was designed by someone who just liked TV...


So was the software development outsourced to India? If it was, then you are 100% correct. How many fanatical TV watchers are over there?

I can imagine that the code was outsourced to save cost and now the responsibility to fix it is back in the USA. You get what you pay for sometimes.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Dr. Booda said:


> So was the software development outsourced to India? If it was, then you are 100% correct. How many fanatical TV watchers are over there?
> 
> I can imagine that the code was outsourced to save cost and now the responsibility to fix it is back in the USA. You get what you pay for sometimes.


The entire HR20 code base (and the HR21) was developed by the developers at DirecTV's office in El Sugundo.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Splendor said:


> Yes, but the menu it still contextual which is not easier to use. On TiVo, you hit Menu and you get the same menu no matter what you were doing before.


And some see that as a positive and a negative.

I hated the fact that I hit "TiVo" button, and had to navigate to everything from the same starting point...

I like in some screens, that certain functions are in contextual menu's to where they apply.


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## Dr. Booda (Jun 18, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The entire HR20 code base (and the HR21) was developed by the developers at DirecTV's office in El Sugundo.


Really? Any idea if they did a hardware build in the US prior to shipping it to China and Mexico for manufacture? I've never had good luck with splitting the development (code vs. hardware) between the US and offshore.


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## Splendor (Apr 17, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And some see that as a positive and a negative.
> 
> I hated the fact that I hit "TiVo" button, and had to navigate to everything from the same starting point...
> 
> I like in some screens, that certain functions are in contextual menu's to where they apply.


Sure it may take longer to reach some options that way...but as far as ease of use goes it's a big help. You don't have think..."now which screen do I have to be in to get that option to come up in the menu."


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> And some see that as a positive and a negative.
> 
> I hated the fact that I hit "TiVo" button, and had to navigate to everything from the same starting point...


I like this particular feature of the HR20. It makes going back and forth between 2 tasks very quick.


> I like in some screens, that certain functions are in contextual menu's to where they apply.


THis is OK, but it takes a while to remember to click Menu and hunt around. A little more consitency or having all the options in one place might be good here.


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## Splendor (Apr 17, 2007)

Lee L said:


> THis is OK, but it takes a while to remember to click Menu and hunt around. A little more consitency or having all the options in one place might be good here.


Yeah, there's no reason we can't have a consistent home screen with a traditional menu in addition to the on-screen menus we have now.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Dr. Booda said:


> Really? Any idea if they did a hardware build in the US prior to shipping it to China and Mexico for manufacture? I've never had good luck with splitting the development (code vs. hardware) between the US and offshore.


Hardware manufacturing was done with two companies... PACE Electronics built the HR20-700 (the first system)... then Thomson built the next one.

I don't know where the intial builds were done.


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