# Pre-wired home with cat 5 issue



## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

First time posting here so if i'm wrong in any way, please let me know. 

I have a home that's pre-wired with cat 5 and thought it would be easy to use when I needed it, but it looks like I'm wrong. I know the home is using cat 5 because it was in my docs when I purchased the home and, after pulling off the wall plate, I see it labeled as cat 5 and see all of the jacks are connected properly with all of the wires. Since I've been living here, all of the jacks have been used as phone lines and have never been needed for a network until now. 

Connecting all of the jacks to the router and modem should be as easy as plugging in the Ethernet cable and be good to go. The problem I am having is that there is no main junction box inside the house that connects all of the cables together. All of the cables tie in at the phone box outside of my house and, at that point, only use the colored wires used for phone service, leaving the networking wires not connected and loose. 

The question I have is what is the best way to connect the loose wires outside to complete the network wiring so that it works properly? Also, is there a way to even bypass having to do anything outside and just use the colored wires already connected by making changes to an Ethernet cable?

I'm comfortable with wiring and making a cable if I have to, I'm just not sure if it would work or if somehow tying in the wires outside would be the only solution. Any help would be appreciated and thanks in advance!


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

It looks like those wires were meant to be used as phone lines instead of network cables. is there any way you can bring those cables inside the house? otherwise is going to be ugly


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

When I bought the house new, I had many options through the builders. Included with the construction was having the house pre-wired with cat 5 for networking. The original plans were to use my wireless router for internet access and just use them as phone lines with the option to change usage later. I had the option of installing a box inside the home for networking/video/etc, at a price. Didn't do it thinking, well who knows if I'll even need it. Regret it now, but kind of pissed at the builder since they led me to believe that it would work as a home network without it.

I can work with ugly and put some makeup on it to make it look passable, I just need to get an idea that works so I know what to do.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

how many cables are there? There is really only two ways. one installing a patch panel (110 block) in some sort of box outside or put 8P8C connector (aka RJ45 jack) on each cable and then run them back to the router using a coupler


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

Total of 6 cables, only really need 3 of them though. They exit the house along with my electrical so I would assume the only point in the house where they are together would be right above my breaker panel, and I'm not to confident in cutting right around that to get a better look or putting a panel there. 

Option #2, if I understand correctly, I would attach a connector to each of the cables outside, tie them in together, and then run another cable back inside into the router? Not sure I have that option again because of where I'd have to drill back into. 

Thinking option #1 might be better. Not pretty outside, but better. 

There is no way to make a cable that would use the phone lines as incoming and outgoing data lines is there?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

no network cables can't be spliced like that. they must be separate. so in theory all cables must be run back to the router


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

Ok. So looking for the patch panel, whats the smallest that they make? I have a junction box I can use outside for it, but it has to be small. Smallest ones I've found so far are 12 ports. Do they make smaller ones?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

here is a 6 port 

http://support.directv.com/app/ask

I just did a Google search


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

Link took me to DTV, but as long as I know they make smaller than 12, I'll find it. Thanks for all of the info you've given me. Greatly appreciated!


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Link took me to DTV, but as long as I know they make smaller than 12, I'll find it. Thanks for all of the info you've given me. Greatly appreciated!
ooopps. sorry about that

http://deepsurplus.com/Network-Structured-Wiring/6-Port-Cat-6-Patch-Panels/6-Port-CAT-6-Patch-Panel-Black


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

You could put a small switch at that location, just put crimp connectors on the cables you want to use, and run one new cable to the switch from your router.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

dennisj00 said:


> You could put a small switch at that location, just put crimp connectors on the cables you want to use, and run one new cable to the switch from your router.


Most switches wouldn't survive unless the outdoor enclosure is NEMA 4 (water tight) and it would still be a crap shoot. Power will be a major problem unless you go PoE.

For three cables, I'd go with couplers and use some anti-oxidant grease.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Most switches wouldn't survive unless the outdoor enclosure is NEMA 4 (water tight) and it would still be a crap shoot. Power will be a major problem unless you go PoE.


Yup this is the exact reason why I did not mention putting a switch outside


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

A switch will probably survive as well or better than a patch panel in a weather-proof enclosure. Power shouldn't be a problem since he mentioned it was near his breaker panel.

If anything, I'd pull the cables back into the crawl space and go with the switch. (assuming there is a crawl space)

I have several switches installed in outdoor enclosures that have worked for years.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

A switch will probably survive as well or better than a patch panel in a weather-proof enclosure. Power shouldn't be a problem since he mentioned it was near his breaker panel.

If anything, I'd pull the cables back into the crawl space and go with the switch. (assuming there is a crawl space)

I have several switches installed in outdoor enclosures that have worked for years.
A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm done with this one but if you're worried about the 'risk of fire' you need to run home and unplug a lot of things!


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Normally the dmark point is just outside the garage. You could have the phone company move it inside the garage. Or you could drill a hole and extend all the lines in. Then the router is out of the weather if not the humitity.


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

The phone company will not touch any of the wiring from the house to the NID. While the DMARC is at the NID located just outside of the house, in the housing you'll see two sides. One is marked for customer access. This is where the wiring from your house comes in and plugs into the feeds provided by the Telco. The other side is marked for Telco access for their access.

Switches are so cheap these days, that I would probably try placing it in an enclosure to see if it works. If it dies, you'd lose what...$20? The alternative to do it by the book is to purchase an environmentally hardened switch. However, they're not cheap and a simple 8 port switch can cost around $300-400.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

If the house is fairly new why not contact the builder and ask them why they did it that way? Never seen the cat 5 run outside on a build of a new house that specified network capable, they cables where all run to a central closet and if termination and patch panel was in the contract it was put in


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

I'd do my darnedest to try to pull wire back inside house.. then just put new cat5 ends on them and plug them in..


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

I eventually plan on bringing them into the house when I have the $$ for someone who can pull them in. Since the phone lines enter the house at the same point as electrical, I just don't want to mess with zapping myself with the big line. Once I get them inside, I'm comfortable with running them into a main room or just paying someone to do it.

The builder gave me the option to pay and have them meet in a central location. I didn't go with that choice since it was extra and was led to believe that if I wasn't adding anything special to the lines, the home should still be able to use the lines as a network.

To make sure, this is what I'm looking for, correct??

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-Structured-Media-6-Port-Cat5e-Voice-and-Data-Stand-Alone-Module-with-Bracket-R00-47605-CB5/100662465#.UghNbZKTjSg

Went with HD since the local electronics places only had powered switches and nothing like the patch panel. I want to put it into the Telco box outside and it seems to fit with some modifications to the items inside and it is pretty weather tight so water shouldn't be an issue. I don't need to use the jacks, just use the 110 connectors and that's it?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Yup, that will work


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

Not sure if I did something wrong but not getting the results I expected. Connected everything properly, checked and double checked the connections at the patch panel and at the wall. Not getting any connection from wall A (computer) to wall B (router/modem). Anything in particular to look for or make sure I did?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Well you need to run a line from your router to the patch panel and make sure to connect it to the right wire "wall"


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

I may not have understood that part until now. I thought the panel was connecting the wires together so the signal comes across to each other. Knowing that, if I have the wire coming in from the router to the panel via RJ45, will it connect all of the other wires connected via 110? If that would work, what is the best way to find the correct wire going to that wall?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

No you need dedicated lines from the router to the patch panel. in order to find which wire goes where, you need to use the "trail and error" method.


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

But can the dedicated line connect to any one of the jacks and link all of the other wires wired into the panel or does a dedicated wire have to go into each jack for all of them to work?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You are drawing deeper and deeper  ; it's time to ask some local guy for help, he will bring cable tester with a tone generator ...


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

one line per port on router/switch..


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## dennisj00 (Sep 27, 2007)

I think there's a misunderstanding about the patch panel wiring and it's use.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

But can the dedicated line connect to any one of the jacks and link all of the other wires wired into the panel or does a dedicated wire have to go into each jack for all of them to work?
so if you need three lines active, you need three lines from your router to the patch panel


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

it would be beneficial for TS to take his time, get initial knowledge about network wiring from books, Internet, etc

but play 'ping-pong' with half-baked questions-answers will not give him proper picture what must be inside of HIS knowledge bucket


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

peds48 said:


> so if you need three lines active, you need three lines from your router to the patch panel
> 
> Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


yep..


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

I am familiar and comfortable with the wiring part, but I have never used a patch panel so I didn't know the use or limitations and the explanations here were great. Once I understood the line to the router, the rest made sense to me. I preferred to have all of the lines working together, but if I can only have one of the wall jacks working for now, so be it. I will have them moved in once I get situated better and have more time and $$ to get it done. 

Everything is working now for what I can do and the help is appreciated.


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## rick4464 (Aug 12, 2013)

dennisj00 said:


> I think there's a misunderstanding about the patch panel wiring and it's use.


This is exactly what the issue was.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I don't see what it could be simpler than the wires and patch panel... perhaps having deal with it for many years it become too familiar







..


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

I am familiar and comfortable with the wiring part, but I have never used a patch panel so I didn't know the use or limitations and the explanations here were great. Once I understood the line to the router, the rest made sense to me. I preferred to have all of the lines working together, but if I can only have one of the wall jacks working for now, so be it. I will have them moved in once I get situated better and have more time and $$ to get it done. 

Everything is working now for what I can do and the help is appreciated.
The good thing about patch panels is now those wires can handle phone or network depending what you connect to the panel. This is (was) how it should have been done from the get go, but inside....


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

peds48 said:


> A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire


Some patch panels do - a POE patch panel will have an electrical connection at the panel

http://www.poweroverethernet.com/products.php?article_id=293


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

PoE patch panels are the exception and not the norm. So the statement that patch panels don't have a powered component can be taken to be generally true. In the various enterprise/campus networks I've been involved with or seen, I've never come across a single PoE patch panel.

In addition, going with a PoE patch panel would be significant problem when it comes time to upgrade. PoE (802.3af) is the norm now, but more and more networks are requiring PoE+(802.3at). If you had a PoE patch panel, you would be faced with a significant upgrade issue as it would not be a simple rip and replace. You'll first have to source a PoE+ capable patch panel and then deal with the labor involved in having to repunch down all the LAN drops. Versus just unplugging the patch cables to a PoE enabled switch and inserting the new PoE+ capable switch.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm pretty sure TS will get headache after reading posts here - the his target blurring and fading thanks to extensive knowledge and broad experience of posting members


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

They will for a price. I know because I am "they".


zx10guy said:



> The phone company will not touch any of the wiring from the house to the NID.


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

I guess it depends on the locality.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

zx10guy said:


> PoE patch panels are the exception and not the norm. So the statement that patch panels don't have a powered component can be taken to be generally true. In the various enterprise/campus networks I've been involved with or seen, I've never come across a single PoE patch panel.
> 
> In addition, going with a PoE patch panel would be significant problem when it comes time to upgrade. PoE (802.3af) is the norm now, but more and more networks are requiring PoE+(802.3at). If you had a PoE patch panel, you would be faced with a significant upgrade issue as it would not be a simple rip and replace. You'll first have to source a PoE+ capable patch panel and then deal with the labor involved in having to repunch down all the LAN drops. Versus just unplugging the patch cables to a PoE enabled switch and inserting the new PoE+ capable switch.


In mid size businesses that do not have deep pockets but need to switch to POE for phones, camera and other devices it is definitely cheaper to use a POE patch panel then forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

PoE patch panels are the exception and not the norm. So the statement that patch panels don't have a powered component can be taken to be generally true.
Yup, right on! :righton:


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

wingrider01 said:


> In mid size businesses that do not have deep pockets but need to switch to POE for phones, camera and other devices it is definitely cheaper to use a POE patch panel then forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches.


One can get a Netgear ProSafe GS724TP PoE switch for around $500. I hardly think that's breaking the bank or requires a company with deep pockets. Contrast that with a Panduit DPOE24U1XG which runs about $1400 and requires a separate 48V DC power feed not included in this price (or the labor to install/punch down the connections.) And your inference about "forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches" is such a gross exaggeration it's not even funny. Swapping out 1U closet switches is pretty basic and happens all the time in businesses...small, medium, or large. If someone considers doing such a change a "forklift" then that person needs to examine another profession.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

you are guys derailing the thread to professional discussion, it has nothing to do with the topic
:backtotop:


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

zx10guy said:


> One can get a Netgear ProSafe GS724TP PoE switch for around $500. I hardly think that's breaking the bank or requires a company with deep pockets. Contrast that with a Panduit DPOE24U1XG which runs about $1400 and requires a separate 48V DC power feed not included in this price (or the labor to install/punch down the connections.) And your inference about "forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches" is such a gross exaggeration it's not even funny. Swapping out 1U closet switches is pretty basic and happens all the time in businesses...small, medium, or large. If someone considers doing such a change a "forklift" then that person needs to examine another profession.


I am talking about commercial grade switches, Cisco 3750's, and 47XX's. Looked at the documentation, see very little on specifications, is it a layer 3 switch?


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

P Smith said:


> you are guys derailing the thread to professional discussion, it has nothing to do with the topic
> :backtotop:


Happen to have a 3750 POE switch in my home wiring closet. the statement "A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire" was made, there are panels that have POE capability and they do have a risk of frying.

The builder needs to be involved, evidently they have no idea what a properly wired cat 5 network is for a home the dmark for a pots line should be terminated in the carriers box on the outside and a line extended to the wiring closet. Nothing should be brought out to the Telco's box on the side of the house. If a fault occurs the Telco can claim the additional wires in the box are causing a issue and make it a chargeable service call.


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

wingrider01 said:


> I am talking about commercial grade switches, Cisco 3750's, and 47XX's. Looked at the documentation, see very little on specifications, is it a layer 3 switch?


While the Netgear switches are not at the same stature as Cisco, it will work in many access layer applications. Add to the fact, the ProSafe line from Netgear has a "lifetime" (ie 20 years from EOS) warranty, it is hard to ignore the value these switches bring to the table. There are options other than Cisco and having to get pummeled with SmartNet. And if Netgear isn't "commercial grade" enough for you there are other alternatives such as Dell PowerConnect where a 5524P goes for $1900 with a lifetime warranty.

For edge access, depending on how you design your network, the absence of layer 3 at the edge is not a big deal and often times a preferred design over having a bunch of routing devices on your network. In the enterprise networks I've designed and deployed, I prefer to have a core switch/router where I have centralized control over how the routing happens at a given location/enclave. And there are other networks I've seen that are architected the same way.

As someone stated, this is getting well off topic and if you want to continue this discussion via PM, be my guest.


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

wingrider01 said:


> Happen to have a 3750 POE switch in my home wiring closet. the statement "A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire" was made, there are panels that have POE capability and they do have a risk of frying.
> 
> The builder needs to be involved, evidently they have no idea what a properly wired cat 5 network is for a home the dmark for a pots line should be terminated in the carriers box on the outside and a line extended to the wiring closet. Nothing should be brought out to the Telco's box on the side of the house. If a fault occurs the Telco can claim the additional wires in the box are causing a issue and make it a chargeable service call.


And I (and others) have said to run into a PoE enabled patch panel is rare and the exception. Especially if you're talking about a home installation where I doubt anyone has a Telco/wiring closet/data center arrangement in their home which provides 48V DC power nor have I seen any structured cabinets which have a PoE patch panel option. So again, in the home application, the statement patch panels have no electronic parts is valid and I would argue that in a business/enterprise environment the same assumption can be made as per the reasons I've stated, it's rare to see a PoE enabled patch panel.

There is nothing wrong with have Category cable all pulled to the NID as long as the intent is for the cables to only be used for POTS line connectivity. If the homeowner doesn't pay for a specific setup for network setup which consists of a structured wiring cabinet or something similar, the workers pulling the cable will assume the lines will be used only for phone service and hence why all the drops are pulled to the Telco NID. If there is a deviation from this default configuration, the homeowner needs to be very clear with the builder and the builder needs to be on top of their subcontractor to make the pull the drops to the proper location. I had this done when I had my house built where I was clear with the builder I wanted the Cat5e drops pulled to a certain location in the basement. I also had a meeting with the sub to make sure they were aware the cables needed to go to a specific location.

The Telco is also not going to care that there are multiple Category cables pulled to the NID. As the NIDs I've seen have a customer and Telco side. The sub would pull and typically terminate the cables on the customer side which decouples the Telco from any responsibility for the wiring.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

zx10guy said:


> And I (and others) have said to run into a PoE enabled patch panel is rare and the exception. Especially if you're talking about a home installation where I doubt anyone has a Telco/wiring closet/data center arrangement in their home which provides 48V DC power nor have I seen any structured cabinets which have a PoE patch panel option. So again, in the home application, the statement patch panels have no electronic parts is valid and I would argue that in a business/enterprise environment the same assumption can be made as per the reasons I've stated, it's rare to see a PoE enabled patch panel.


there is a 120 volt outlet in the wiring closet with APC 1500 UPS that functions just fine, the POE panel comes with a power injector that inputs 120v outputs 48V DC, have 3 installed in my wiring closet, heck I even have a power injector that converts 120V to 12V DC in there. Just did a switch upgrade of 10 standard panels to 10 POE panels for 1/10 the cost of swapping out the businesses Cisco 37XX layer 3 switches.

I disagree with the wiring being terminated in the Dmark panel, that is poor construction and even poorer planning. The Telco here will charge for a service call if anything has been touched on their external box at a residential address which is normally no charge unless they walk into the house.

If the builder assumed what you say, then it is the builders fault for not verifying what was on the build plan and requested by the buyer, if it is written down in the specifications the builder needs to make it right


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

As yet another Cisco network admin, I'm enjoying this thread. Sounds like PPPI on the builder's part. Of course in my (and any of our) cases we'd be pretty clear about where we'd want the IDF in our homes but to a layman it'd be tough in this situation. The demarc being outside is pretty lousy and I'd be on the horn with the builder to fix that pretty quickly.

And to this:



> There is no way to make a cable that would use the phone lines as incoming and outgoing data lines is there?
> 
> no network cables can't be spliced like that. they must be separate.


Au contraire. Until we had a full rewiring of campus...we would indeed splice out a pair of jacks on a lead, punch 4/5 on a phone block and 12/36 on the network block. It ain't pretty, but when you've only got one drop...and you could make a pretty ugly cable to do the same.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

RasputinAXP said:


> ...
> 
> Au contraire. Until we had a full rewiring of campus...we would indeed splice out a pair of jacks on a lead, punch 4/5 on a phone block and 12/36 on the network block. It ain't pretty, but when you've only got one drop...and you could make a pretty ugly cable to do the same.


I'm hate to come into someone IDF room and find undocumented 'tricks' like that ! Instead of doing your job you forced to spend time for research and scratching your head how the hell I would handle the mess?!


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

P Smith said:


> I'm hate to come into someone IDF room and find undocumented 'tricks' like that ! Instead of doing your job you forced to spend time for research and scratching your head how the hell I would handle the mess?!


lol, back in the day it was ALL undocumented tricks. Now that we have a budget we wire the daylights out of a place, but 10-12 years ago when we couldn't convince people to pay for a new drop? Man.

(besides, who had to document it? it was way obvious when we did it... :rolling: )


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Oh, man ! Shame on the guys !


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## zx10guy (Nov 16, 2008)

wingrider01 said:


> there is a 120 volt outlet in the wiring closet with APC 1500 UPS that functions just fine, the POE panel comes with a power injector that inputs 120v outputs 48V DC, have 3 installed in my wiring closet, heck I even have a power injector that converts 120V to 12V DC in there. Just did a switch upgrade of 10 standard panels to 10 POE panels for 1/10 the cost of swapping out the businesses Cisco 37XX layer 3 switches.
> 
> I disagree with the wiring being terminated in the Dmark panel, that is poor construction and even poorer planning. The Telco here will charge for a service call if anything has been touched on their external box at a residential address which is normally no charge unless they walk into the house.
> 
> If the builder assumed what you say, then it is the builders fault for not verifying what was on the build plan and requested by the buyer, if it is written down in the specifications the builder needs to make it right


There you go with all things network has to revolve around Cisco. As I said there are other alternatives which more than satisfies most people's requirements (businesses included) without having to pay the Cisco price tag.

In your eyes, it's poor construction. In the eyes of the builder, they don't care unless you're going to pay extra to have it wired in the way we all know is the proper way to do it. I don't know what Telco you deal with but that's not the case in my area. And I can't see how they would charge for anything if the home's wiring is on the customer side of the NID. Have you ever looked at a NID? On the one installed outside of my home, the NID has two compartments. One is labeled customer access and the other is labeled Telco access. The customer side is accessed by using a Philips or flat head screw driver. The Telco side requires the use of a nut driver to unscrew the bolt. Even the troubleshooting steps provided by my Telco instructs their customers to do some testing on the customer access side before calling them in for service.

If the home buyer didn't put it in writing, the yes, the builder can assume or do what ever it thinks is appropriate. I suspect if the OP had this in writing, there wouldn't be all this discussion.


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