# Maybe the 921 isn't THAT bad compared to HD Tivo



## smooth28la (Oct 7, 2002)

According to multiple discussions on the other Tivo board, many people are complaining the HD Tivo has very soft pictures... compared to the old receivers they replaced.

Even though we're all disappointed with Dishwire decision, perhaps the 921 does have some redeeming value to it!

Does anyone have the 921 and HDTivo to compare picture quality?


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

There's no doubt that the HDTivo isn't nearly as perfect as a lot of people have made it out to be, but honestly I don't think that it suffers from nearly the number of problems that the 921 suffers from either.


----------



## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

I replaced a Sony HD 200 with the HD Tivo and I cannot discern any difference in PQ between the two units--either in OTA or Satellite HD reception. Others may have different experiences but I really can't tell the difference. Being able to record in HD is a BIG plus.

Don't want to start a big D* vs E* flame war here, but if it were me and I owned a 921, I'd sell it while I could still get pretty good $$ for it on E-Bay and switch in a nanosecond.



smooth28la said:


> According to multiple discussions on the other Tivo board, many people are complaining the HD Tivo has very soft pictures... compared to the old receivers they replaced.
> 
> Even though we're all disappointed with Dishwire decision, perhaps the 921 does have some redeeming value to it!
> 
> Does anyone have the 921 and HDTivo to compare picture quality?


----------



## Danny R (Jul 5, 2002)

_Does anyone have the 921 and HDTivo to compare picture quality?_

If anyone ever does do a side by side comparison, the best method of doing so is to split an antenae and hook both up simultaneously and tape the same OTA program.

Then you can switch back and forth and compare the exact same image without worry that one service might be compressing the signal more than the other.

If someone will donate a 921 and HDR250, I'll be more than happy to run these tests.


----------



## Randy_B (Apr 23, 2002)

CNET Home Theater has reviewed both and seem to favor the 921 initially. Review gives 921 an 8 out of 10 and calls it "excellent all-in-one solution for recording satellite and over-the-air HDTV" However, they caveat the Tivo HD as a first look. The site sez a head to head review will be out within the next few weeks.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6463_7-5132524.html?tag=prmo1


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Danny R said:


> _Does anyone have the 921 and HDTivo to compare picture quality?_
> 
> If anyone ever does do a side by side comparison, the best method of doing so is to split an antenae and hook both up simultaneously and tape the same OTA program.
> 
> ...


And THANK you Danny for featuring the lovely courtesan from Firefly in your avatar. ANOTHER great Joss Whedon show that went away too soon. Get the entire series on DVD if you haven't already......


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

tds4182:
I'd love to hear your other observations on HDTivo. Any random reboots? Are the timers reliable?


----------



## MikeHDTulsa (Nov 10, 2003)

I have had my HD DTiVo for 4 days now and have recorded 7 HD shows off of my local stations and it has worked perfectly. The guide info for the local stations is for 14 days and I have owned the Dish 6000 and so far the picture quality does not look any different. I was going to buy the 921 but I needed the dual tuners and after everybody was saying they had to set manual timers for the locals there was no way I was going to buy it. I was ready to jump ship from Dish Network when they decided to charge a $5 a month DVR fee and then when their 921 would not work properly I decided it was time for a change. I like Dish Network's programming but they can not compete with DirecTV TiVo's.


----------



## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

I have had my HD Tivo for several weeks now. I was in the first batch of orders shipped by Value Electronics. I have had no reboots and the Tivo timer has been flawless. I had an SD Tivo before and the HD unit seems just as reliable as the SD unit. Tivos are rock solid performers with very few flaws. You might want to check the Tivo Community Forum section on HD Tivos, there is plenty of input there from early adopters--almost all of it positive.



David_Levin said:


> tds4182:
> I'd love to hear your other observations on HDTivo. Any random reboots? Are the timers reliable?


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

I've got both machines. Haven't opened the TiVo unit up yet, cuz I'm not sure I want it yet. There is not clear "leader" here. The TiVo unit is the EXACT same ugly case as their $100 unit. They have a horrible $5 IR remote that has huge obvious flaws in it. You can change the volume on your stereo with it, but you can't turn it on or off as an example.

Dish has the banner guide, and a fast grid guide. The TiVo grid guide is unuseable for being so slow. It doesn't have a banner guide in it. No Picture-in-Picture. No RF modulator if you want to broadcast through your house. It doesn't tell you how much hard drive space you have left. 

The TiVo has two OTA tuners, OTA guide data, and Season Pass. It has a search feature that is data base centric, and far better and faster than the 921 which circumvents the grid guide, provided you want to record a show. The 921 will have Name Based Recording soon, and OTA guide data soon.

DirectTV can be a lot more expensive than Dish. Their basic package is 120 channels or so, for $39.99, or $36.99 w/o locals. You can't not have that package. I don't watch SD stuff from the satellite, so for me, I just want the HD Pack, and HBO. With dish it is $23.97 to do this. With directTV, it is going to cost me $64.97. You can get the $23.97 package with the 921, and a Voom package for $39.00 and STILL be $2.00 less than directTV.

The 921 and the TiVo seem to be two different paradigms. The 921 is a receiver with PVR functions. The TiVo seems to be a paradigm that is not centered around watching live TV at all. It seems to be completely centric around watching recorded material, and that is where it seems to shine.

It isnt' a "no brainer" decision as to what to purchase. It also appears to be dependant on what your personal needs and tastes are.


----------



## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> There's no doubt that the HDTivo isn't nearly as perfect as a lot of people have made it out to be, but honestly I don't think that it suffers from nearly the number of problems that the 921 suffers from either.


Okay, so you've got months of experience with your 921 and I've got a day and a half, but my experience so far as been terrific! The OTA HD reception is better than my old Sammy (better multipath rejection, or at least so far) and I haven't had a single problem worth noting. Yeah, a second OTA receiver would have been nice, but I think the 921 has a lot going for it.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

That's great John! Here hopefully by the end of next week, one of the major 921 problems will be resolved (the continuous loss of OTA channels), leaving only a couple of other big problems to deal with.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

jsanders said:


> I've got both machines. Haven't opened the TiVo unit up yet, cuz I'm not sure I want it yet. There is not clear "leader" here. The TiVo unit is the EXACT same ugly case as their $100 unit. They have a horrible $5 IR remote that has huge obvious flaws in it. You can change the volume on your stereo with it, but you can't turn it on or off as an example.
> 
> Dish has the banner guide, and a fast grid guide. The TiVo grid guide is unuseable for being so slow. It doesn't have a banner guide in it. No Picture-in-Picture. No RF modulator if you want to broadcast through your house. It doesn't tell you how much hard drive space you have left.
> 
> ...


That's an excellent analysis.

I do have once concern though about the 921. Even if it gets name based recording, what exactly does that mean? Will it have the same features as the Tivo or just be half baked name based recording like in the Dishplayer.

I think name based recording sounds great for Dish receivers in theory but we will all have to wait and see how it's actually executed. Personally I'm a little leary. Dish has given no details about how their name based recording system will work.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Chris Blount said:


> That's an excellent analysis.
> 
> I do have once concern though about the 921. Even if it gets name based recording, what exactly does that mean? Will it have the same features as the Tivo or just be half baked name based recording like in the Dishplayer.
> 
> I think name based recording sounds great for Dish receivers in theory but we will all have to wait and see how it's actually executed. Personally I'm a little leary. Dish has given no details about how their name based recording system will work.


You make a good point there Chris on Dish's NBR implementation. It will be interesting seeing how they implement it. I am waiting a bit myself on the 921 in hopes they will have deal and let them iron out the bugs.

As for the TivoHD. The Tivo crowd tend to overlook some of the warts because of the life changing experience that they have. Lot different than the Dish folks that seem to go nuts at a drop of a hat. Yes Dish has bugs and some are really ugly and should have been caught. I think the Dish group is less tolerant because they feel a bit left out and have had to endure a less stable productIt would not surprise me that initial reports would be more upbeat.

I have a friend that is a nut about privacy to the extreme. Usually goes balistic over the slightest hint of someone acquiring info from him. When he found out that Tivo was doing this (Yes i know they provide an opt out) it did not seem to bother him. I found this suprising, but given how he would talk about Tivo I understand why he didn't. I have never heard someone say "I watched CSI on Dish last night".. but I have heard people say "I watched CSI on Tivo last night"..

Point being.. Tivo does have a very loyal following similar to the Apple crowd and they will over look the small things. Don't blame them.. Tivo is a well designed product and well thought out from a usability point of view for sure.


----------



## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

Chris Blount said:


> That's an excellent analysis.
> 
> I do have once concern though about the 921. Even if it gets name based recording, what exactly does that mean? Will it have the same features as the Tivo or just be half baked name based recording like in the Dishplayer.
> 
> I think name based recording sounds great for Dish receivers in theory but we will all have to wait and see how it's actually executed. Personally I'm a little leary. Dish has given no details about how their name based recording system will work.


During the tech chat they mentioned that it would autoadust the recording length and time in case of a schedule change. That sounds like details to me.

Ken


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

kstevens said:


> During the tech chat they mentioned that it would autoadust the recording length and time in case of a schedule change. That sounds like details to me.
> Ken


Yes, those are details but adjusting the recording length is a given as far as NBR. I just wonder if they are planning any other features like an improved search function or wishlists.

Personally I think it's great that Dish will be getting NBR. I have a 508 so I'm anxious to see how it will work.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

WeeJavaDude said:


> As for the TivoHD. The Tivo crowd tend to overlook some of the warts because of the life changing experience that they have. Lot different than the Dish folks that seem to go nuts at a drop of a hat. Yes Dish has bugs and some are really ugly and should have been caught. I think the Dish group is less tolerant because they feel a bit left out and have had to endure a less stable productIt would not surprise me that initial reports would be more upbeat.


Good points. The Tivo crowd does tend to overlook warts. There are a couple of things the Tivo does that I hate but since the software is stable, it's easy to overlook the shortcomings.

Despite which system is better (Dish DVR or Tivo), competition is heating up because cable companies are doing their own DVR products which might keep many customers away from satellite television.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

What about the Tivo time pad options that can cause recordings to fail? That seems like a pretty big problem to be glossing over, and from what I've been told affects the SD version of the tivos as well.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Mark Lamutt said:


> What about the Tivo time pad options that can cause recordings to fail? That seems like a pretty big problem to be glossing over, and from what I've been told affects the SD version of the tivos as well.


I personally have not run into this problem. I usually don't pad any of my recordings but when I do, I make sure both tuners are not firing a timer within the "pad". I have seen it happen once but the Tivo simply recorded the same show that was on at a later time slot. I would guess if it's not on later, you will miss the show.

What does the 921 do when you pad timers but something else needs to record on both tuners at the same time?


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

What "time pad" problems are you talking about? I pad sporting events and shows that run over all the time (like on Sci-Fi) all the time and I've never lost a recording in over 3 years of having a DirecTivo.


----------



## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

bonscott87 said:


> What "time pad" problems are you talking about? I pad sporting events and shows that run over all the time (like on Sci-Fi) all the time and I've never lost a recording in over 3 years of having a DirecTivo.


I have a TiVo Series 2 that is set up to receive the 4 networks from cable and sat. channels from my Dish 811 . Being a NASCAR fan, I record the Nextel Cup and Busch races so I won't be tied to the TV for several hours. I have season passes set up for both series, and pad the scheduled record times by 1 1/2 hours. Sadly for me, this isn't enough. I've missed the end of several races that ran overtime due to accidents or weather.
If NBR on the 921 or, for that matter, on the 510 or 721, gets around that issue, I'm all for it! So that I can watch one live program while recording anotherI've got my retailer looking into getting me a 721, and what, if any, costs above the $249 might be involved for switching to a quad lnbf.


----------



## Tusk (Nov 14, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> What about the Tivo time pad options that can cause recordings to fail? That seems like a pretty big problem to be glossing over, and from what I've been told affects the SD version of the tivos as well.


This has happened to people who pad everything in their season pass list. I prefer not to pad any shows. I always miss the first minute of ER (for example), but with show many shows to watch, that minute isn't the end of the world.


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The 921 currently automatically adjusts the padding to 0 if the padding creates a timer conflict between tuners.

Scott - I've had a couple of people tell me over the last day or so that if you set pad times and the pad times create a conflict between events to be recorded, the second event won't record.


----------



## schmoo34 (May 12, 2004)

I've been with Dish for almost 5 years. I've been drooling for HD for almost a year. The 921 and its problems is the reason I switched to Dish. I am not a loyal Tivo fan but must say that after experiencing it...it is easy to see why people are loyal.

For starters, as a Dish customer here is what I think E* did great:

Banner browsing. Second to none, E* implemented it wonderfully and I really miss that feature

E* color coded the menu guide. I know it sounds silly but I miss that a lot. Green for ppv channels, red for channels you don't subscribe to. I liked the colors.

UHF remote is overrated, in my opinion, but apparently some folks feel it is important. The part I miss about E*'s remote is the ability to power on/off my receiver. Powering off my tv does me no good if the sound is still coming out of my receiver.

Sadly, though, those are the only things I miss. PQ is good, HD TIVO has so far been 100% reliable. The above items aren't enough to keep my loyalty so I'm glad I made the switch. 

I do want to say for the record that I wish I didn't have to switch. The 921, if it weren't buggy would have been my dream receiver and I would have gladly stayed with Dish. I know Charlie is full of crap and the master of spin, but I do like supporting the underdog...and now I feel like I joined the dark side.

With that said, sometimes being evil is good. :lol:


----------



## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

Tivo will warn you with a conflict screen. You can also go into the to do list and see if a padded seasons pass is going to give you any problems. You can also change the priority level of the season passes to make sure your favorite show gets recorded in case of a conflict.


----------



## scottchez (Feb 4, 2003)

You have got to be kidding . . . 


This thread is titled about the Software Picture on the HD Tivo.


Every one knows when you get a new Box and use new cables and new connectors


You have to retune/tweak your TV. Simply record one of those Test Patterns on HBo or HDNET and use DVE and Avia as a base line with your DVD player connected to the same input line.

Mine at first looked soft and bad. Now it is perfect again.

My 65 PRTV has 4 Pic mode settings that I can customize. I have one for Dish and one for Direct TV. They are VERY different.

I do not see any difference in Pic quality between the two now. It just takes some time to tweak it.


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

Phil T said:


> Tivo will warn you with a conflict screen. You can also go into the to do list and see if a padded seasons pass is going to give you any problems. You can also change the priority level of the season passes to make sure your favorite show gets recorded in case of a conflict.


Very good points!


----------



## kenyarnall (May 11, 2004)

BobMurdoch said:


> And THANK you Danny for featuring the lovely courtesan from Firefly in your avatar. ANOTHER great Joss Whedon show that went away too soon. Get the entire series on DVD if you haven't already......


Completely OT, but... I hope all FireFly fans know by now that the FireFly movie ("Serenity") is in preproduction and begins filming in June, slated for a 2005 release. Entire original cast, Joss wrote and is directing. 

Sorry --- couldn't help it. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion!

Ken


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Cholly said:


> I have a TiVo Series 2 that is set up to receive the 4 networks from cable and sat. channels from my Dish 811 . Being a NASCAR fan, I record the Nextel Cup and Busch races so I won't be tied to the TV for several hours. I have season passes set up for both series, and pad the scheduled record times by 1 1/2 hours. Sadly for me, this isn't enough. I've missed the end of several races that ran overtime due to accidents or weather.
> If NBR on the 921 or, for that matter, on the 510 or 721, gets around that issue, I'm all for it! So that I can watch one live program while recording anotherI've got my retailer looking into getting me a 721, and what, if any, costs above the $249 might be involved for switching to a quad lnbf.


Unfortunately nothing is going to help you there. Tivo or Dish (or Replay or UTV, etc.) isn't going to know the live event runs long. You just have to learn to add even more time to Nascar events.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Scott - I've had a couple of people tell me over the last day or so that if you set pad times and the pad times create a conflict between events to be recorded, the second event won't record.


Sure, it can happen. With dual tuners it's less likely. But as mentioned above, the Tivo will warn you if this will happen when you setup or change your season pass. If you set a recording with padding for 8:58 to 10:00 and you already have two things setup to record until 9:00, then the show from 8:58 until 10 won't record. It's logical and makes sense. You'll just need to get a sense of how you order your season passes if this is something that you have to do and prioritize which you'd rather miss: First two minutes of a show or the last two minutes of an earlier show. A non-Tivo device isn't going to help you here. I typically scan my ToDo list about once a week just to see if I have any conflicts. I normally don't, but then I don't record much off the "Big 4" networks which seem to want to start and end their programs at weird times.

However, an oft requested feature of Tivo has been "soft padding" in that if there is a conflict as stated above, it would record the 8:58 show anyway but skip the first 2 minutes. That would be a hard one to program which is why it probably hasn't been an added feature (yet). I want to say that the UTV had something like this, but can't remember exactly.

Have fun!


----------



## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

That's what I wanted confirmation on, Scott. The padding on the 921 would be considered "soft" in this terminology, as it automatically adjusts to 0 if a conflict is caused by the padding. The only time I would see the timer conflict screen is if the actual times of the programs conflicted, not if the pad times caused the conflict. 

(And, I'm definitely not bashing the Tivo and praising the 921 here - just trying to get a clear picture in my own head what the advantages and deficiencies of each option are.)


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

No problem!


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Hey, I actually got to use an SD DirecTivo last night for the first time. My sister and brother in law (he's a Broncos fan and she's a 49er fan... but both are based here in NJ) switched to D* after CBS yanked their distant CBS feeds last summer (they had been getting the Denver and LA feeds but then CBS yanked them all for some reason last May). They tried to suffer through last year without Sunday ticket, but finally jumped ship over the issue....

I just helped them hook it up last night and I have a few observations....

Pro D*:
Rock solid stability so far (in fairness to E* my 510 (which I consider this equal to) has been rock solid as well)
this is stupid, but I like those cute little sound effects.
I like the sliding menus and the moving background... looks more professional
Sunday Ticket
Free View - They had a Blue Man Group show recorded - very cool..... PPV coupons don't do it for me, make it automatic (verify online when it dials home) and we'll talk
Season pass & Name based recording.
14 day guide vs. 8 or 9 day guide with E*
Much better search filters

Anti D*

OH GOD - That slow guide will have me sucking on a gun barrel in ten minutes of use
No Caller ID (They are upset at themselves that they are THAT lazy OR that they get up to find out that it is junk phone calling)
IR Remote - They pipe music out to their balcony and used the remote to change the channel -- now they have to get up to do it.
No time remaining info on the hard disk
Tivo Remote isn't as intuitive as the Dish Remote (Who put the TV power button down there... only the thumbs up and thumbs down buttons are easy to find)
Hard to setup favorites - E* doesn't do this perfect either, but I had a hell of a time bouncing back and forth trying to figure out what those channel abbreviations stood for...
It lists all channels that he doesn't get and doesn't distinguish like E* with the red labels.

Am I missing anything?
I only had about an hour to play, but that was what jumped out at me.....


----------



## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, it seems like a big Pro D* is that it's a dual tuner box. Really closer in funcationality to the 721 then the 510.

Plus a reasonably proficient user can increase the hard drive space (there are even kits available which eliminate the need to prep in a computer).


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

BobMurdoch said:


> Anti D*
> 
> OH GOD - That slow guide will have me sucking on a gun barrel in ten minutes of use


True. Basically don't use the DirecTV "grid style" guide. Tell them to use the "Tivo style" guide which is quite fast. Also allows you to see 8+ hours ahead on each channel. Some people hate it, most love it after you get used to it. But then again most don't ever use it. I use it *maybe* once a week. I have 100+ hours recorded plus a couple dozen season passes. I have no need to look at live TV. 



BobMurdoch said:


> No Caller ID (They are upset at themselves that they are THAT lazy OR that they get up to find out that it is junk phone calling)


Common complaint and it's up to the individual. I have never, ever seen the need for caller ID on my TV. I have caller ID on my $30 cordless phone for a reason.  However, there are small boxes that you can buy to be put inline that will display the caller id on your TV.



BobMurdoch said:


> IR Remote - They pipe music out to their balcony and used the remote to change the channel -- now they have to get up to do it.


Easy to fix. Get a cheap IR extender at Radio Shack (if it's worth it to them obviously).



BobMurdoch said:


> No time remaining info on the hard disk


Common request. What some do if they really, really need it is leave suggestions turned on. Suggestions will always get delete first if needed so add up the time of all the suggestions and you should have about how much time is left.



BobMurdoch said:


> Tivo Remote isn't as intuitive as the Dish Remote (Who put the TV power button down there... only the thumbs up and thumbs down buttons are easy to find)


I have a Universal Remote so I can't comment on that one.



BobMurdoch said:


> Hard to setup favorites - E* doesn't do this perfect either, but I had a hell of a time bouncing back and forth trying to figure out what those channel abbreviations stood for...


Guess it's just not knowing what the channels are. You can print out a channel list off the DirecTV web site and use that as reference as you are setting it up.



BobMurdoch said:


> It lists all channels that he doesn't get and doesn't distinguish like E* with the red labels.


Common complaint while setting up "channels I receive". It would be nice to have some sort of auto-detect (some regualr D* receivers have this feature) but since I know exactly what channels I get I guess I've never seen it as a big deal. But I can see why it annoys some people.

I think most Tivoites will not claim the Tivo is perfect. But if the biggest complaint people have is that the unit doesn't have caller id or doesn't auto-detect channels, I'd call that a rock solid unit since what it's supposed to do is record and it certainly does that better then anything out there (my opinion) and is stable.  Mine has rebooted once in the past year, and that was for a software upgrade.

Hope your friends have fun with their new toy!


----------



## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Good point with the dual tuners, Make it similar to the 721 for argument's sake then.... We didn't check that out but I forgot that the D* installer hooked up both feeds.... I just tied everything to their A/V receiver and reprogrammed their remotes.... 

I did like the fact that D* allows more customized settings.....


----------



## John Quaglino (Aug 5, 2003)

As a recent 921 owner and now a convert to Directv, I have to echo many of the above statements.

Echostar has a very good product on its hands with the 921. In my 3 months of ownership, I enjoyed using it even with the bugs. My biggest problems were with E* and their apparent lack of vision. The Dishwire fiasco, IMHO, depleated the value of the 921 below its competition. I left Dish for this reason and the fact that they still do not have my locals and aren't planning them anytime soon. I live in New Orleans, the 43rd market.

I now own a SD Tivo. While not the HD version, I can comment on the operating system. The 921 and Tivo are different beasts. The 921's guide is lightning fast. It is great for scrolling to see what is on. The Tivos are ridiculously slow for a hardrive based product. Using the guide to see what is own is a PIA. The 921 has the browse feature which is great. The Tivo does not. In defense of Tivo, Season Pass, Name based recording, flawlessly, and a much better searching ability. Tivo suggestions are pretty darn cool. The unit is always recording something. If you like it, watch it and let it know. It learns as it goes. It prioritizes what you tell it to record and keeps those on the drive while deleting the suggestions. 

As an earlier poster said the 921 is a reciever with PVR functions and the Tivo is a recorder. If you are mainly interested in watching live television, surfing, and having recording capabilities, then the 921 is for you. If you want ease of use for recording and having a hardrive full of content without needing operator involvement, Tivo is for you.

Right now, I'm using a SDTivo next to a HTL-HD. I watch live television (HD and SD) with the HTL-HD and recorded material with the Tivo.


----------



## guruka (Dec 27, 2003)

> As an earlier poster said the 921 is a reciever with PVR functions and the Tivo is a recorder. If you are mainly interested in watching live television, surfing, and having recording capabilities, then the 921 is for you. If you want ease of use for recording and having a hardrive full of content without needing operator involvement, Tivo is for you.


Yah, this is basically true. My neighbor has a Tivo (hooked up to cable) which I've played with, and it has pretty menus and a good interface. . . but it is slow. I recommended one to my mom (she's on Comcast cable in L.A.) and she loves it. I prefer my 921, but I guess I'm more of a tinkerer than most. Got my 921 in January and have enjoyed being a gamma tester 

.....G


----------



## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

BobMurdoch said:


> I just helped them hook it up last night and I have a few observations....
> 
> Pro D*:
> Rock solid stability so far (in fairness to E* my 510 (which I consider this equal to) has been rock solid as well)
> ...


The other big one (besides 2nd tuner) is you can add an extra hard drive to the HR10-250 HD TiVo.

I have a de-activated 6000 that I am using as a 2nd OTA tuner. Can't record with it, but in some rare event, I can record something on the 921, and watch something else on the 6000. Yes, it does work de-activated. All you need is for it to see channel 101 for it to work.

Some TiVo people have said that the channel guide slowness isn't a big deal, because they don't use it after a while. My sister has an SD TiVo, and she said it is still a pain in the neck for her after years of use. Personally, I think that channel surfing is more fundamental than recording stuff. How do you know what you want to record if you haven't surfed around to see what new shows are on?


----------



## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Our household is still a newbie when it comes to the 921, but the more time we spend with it the more we like it. Quite a leap froward from the 508 it replaced. The program guide is totally cool and we haven't had any problems in recording programs, but to be honest, we're not too demanding there. My wife has even transcended from the "why did you have to spend more money on another tech. toy" stage. Earliest from all of my recent purchases.


----------



## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I like some of the comparisons in this thread. Some real sensible thoughts.

As one who is planning to have both, not switching but using both on an ongoing basis, I have been doing a lot of reading on the TIVO and have developed a bug list / annoyance list to compare.
I decided to divide the list into those things that I consider deal killers, that is, 1. a bug that kills your use of the product. 2.The next level down is a bug or defect that causes you much annoyance so as to kill your enjoyment of using the product but you can still use it. 3.Finally, those bugs and little things that you can learn to live with or work around.

I must say that I first owned a TIVO back in 2000 but because of the terrible picture on that system, I decided it had no place in my home. It was just too fuzzy except on a 15" TVset. So, I gave it to my father who likes it and continues to use it on his 16 year old 19" TV set to this day. 

Here are the list of problems I found that are considered #1 for the TIVO-
TIVO DD5.1 audio issues, loss of audio or clicks and pops in the surrounds.
DVI, no video output or intermittant video. 

On the 921- #1 would have been the blue lines issue but Mine didn't have that. I had no #1's on my 921 that I recall. 


Lots of #2 issues on both but to mention a few-
921- OTA loss of channels
921- Rebooting or GSOD while watching.
921- No OTA guide
921- Can't do the Favorites, just doesn't work right, lot's of problems

TIVO- Loss of OTA channels or can't even receive them, poor tuner capability flaky oTA tuner sensitivity.
TIVO- Guides so slow that even the TIVO fanatic mentions it.


Items on #3 are:
921- Manual time based recording, complete manual time based OTA recording.
921- I blue edge to the frame that surfaces once in a while. To get rid of it cycle the guide once. This I believe was fixed in L180 as I have not seen it since L180. It was only on DVI and in 0 overscan monitor. I reported it direct to my connections to Eldon rather than through you Mark because no one else was seeing it and I don't think it was reported through the forum. Must have been an easy fix. 
921- has many others but I didn't really have them here like caller ID issues.

The TIVO has a few I've heard about that I will learn to live with, like it doesn't buffer a full hour, I've gotten used to the 921's generous buffer.


Finally, the biggest PLUS for me with the TIVO is the company policy that they do not forbid hard drive swapping by the owners. The TIVO, IMO, has given us the opportunity to do what we once thought was possibly with the 921 via Dishwire but with TIVO, swapping out a hard drive may be the next best thing. 



I didn't list everything but just wanted to point out that I have labeled the bugs and defects in the three categories and not just a numbers game. For me the TIVO has those two #1's and they need to be addressed before I will use one. The reason is I have a 921 that has a perfect picture and perfect sound.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

jsanders said:


> Some TiVo people have said that the channel guide slowness isn't a big deal, because they don't use it after a while. My sister has an SD TiVo, and she said it is still a pain in the neck for her after years of use. Personally, I think that channel surfing is more fundamental than recording stuff. How do you know what you want to record if you haven't surfed around to see what new shows are on?


Have her try the Tivo style guide. It's very quick. Takes a little getting used to but it's better (for most people). You can quickly see the next 8+ hours of programs on each channel as you scroll through. Easy to pick things out.

As for channel surfing is fundamental, well, that's not the way a Tivo is made. If channel surfing is your top priority then you might want to look at other options (although I have no problem channel surfing with it at all if I'm in the mood.)

As for finding things to record? Easy. Use the search or wishlists. For example, my wife loves Nancy Drew. So she has a wishlist to record anything that happens to do with Nancy Drew. It has picked up things from old movies from the 40's to a special on Discovery channel on a haunted house tied to Nancy Drew. Searching - I like Sci-Fi movies. So's I go into the search, choose themes, sci-fi, choose "A" and now I have an alphabetical listing of all sci-fi themed movies and shows for the next two weeks. Surf through the list, pick and choose what to record. Want to see what's on Starz/Encore channels the next two weeks? Go to the Starz Showcase and pick and choose what you want. What's up with network tv? Go to the Tivolution optoin in Showcases or maybe do a search on the theme "reality shows" or whatever you can dream of.

Just a couple examples that only touch the tip of the iceberg of what you can do.


----------



## ccwf (Dec 4, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> However, an oft requested feature of Tivo has been "soft padding" in that if there is a conflict as stated above, it would record the 8:58 show anyway but skip the first 2 minutes. That would be a hard one to program which is why it probably hasn't been an added feature (yet). I want to say that the UTV had something like this, but can't remember exactly.


 Soft-padding _is_ tricky, but it's been done. People willing to modify their TiVos can get the soft-padding hack at various TiVo forums. The hack allows setting the pre- and post-padding to any desired amount (e.g., start up to 15 second early and stop up to 15 minutes lates) and is fully soft (if only 1 minute of padding is possible on a particular day, that's all you'll get). Note: I don't know whether anyone's tried running this hack on the HDDirecTiVo units, however.

I believe UTV always did a 5-minute soft end pad.


jsanders said:


> They have a horrible $5 IR remote that has huge obvious flaws in it. You can change the volume on your stereo with it, but you can't turn it on or off as an example.


 The TiVo remote is capable of turning on/off many stereos but there are also many for which it cannot.


----------

