# Roll Back Software to L213??



## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

After using L215 for a few days and finding more problems and still no fixes for some of the past issues, how many folks would prefer to have the software rolled back to L213?

The worsening of the overscan alone is ruining my picture forcing me to use the 921s poor aspect ratios in place of my TVs superior ARs.


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## RocketNJ (Jul 29, 2003)

I find the 921 is working better for me with L215.

Only issue I have is when the OTA tuner is switched to a hi def channel that is not currently broadcasting the 921 will freeze for around 30 seconds. During that time I cannot change channels. My local PBS station only broadcasts hi def in the evenings and not every night as they are still "tweaking" their new transmitter.

The RF remote control is MUCH smoother.


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## cleblanc (Dec 18, 2003)

I agree they should roll back the software until the OTA guide issue is resolved.


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

RocketNJ said:


> I find the 921 is working better for me with L215.
> 
> Only issue I have is when the OTA tuner is switched to a hi def channel that is not currently broadcasting the 921 will freeze for around 30 seconds. During that time I cannot change channels. My local PBS station only broadcasts hi def in the evenings and not every night as they are still "tweaking" their new transmitter.
> 
> The RF remote control is MUCH smoother.


Yes, I found the same. Everything freezes for what seems like 30 secs if you try to select a channel that is either too low a power or not transmitting. The odd this is that this happened a few minutes after I had done a local channel scan. If it was not transmitting then why did it scan it in to begin with????


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## leemathre (Sep 25, 2003)

Same thing here. The first time it happened, I thought I would have to reboot to fix the problem. I was just about to do a front-panel reset when it cleared itself.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

My vote is NO to a rollback to L213. My vote is YES to L216 with more fixes. L215 has some good fixes. I have found that with OTA problems and other PITA's, deleting the all OTA channels, performing a Factory Defaults, Performing a Check Switch, adding the OTA channels back and doing a 20 second power cord unplug eliminates most of the undesired problems. Yes, it is a pain but sometimes it just has to be done. Personally, I don't know if the 921's will ever be bug free and I suspect that the hardware in some respects is the cause of lots of problems affecting software interactions.


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## dishbacker (Jun 15, 2004)

I had a freeze up last night as well. Here is the best I can recollect on my actions:

8p timer for 008-01 (WFAA / ABC) kicked off while the box was in standby.
8:45p - started up the box, flipped around a bit on Discover/TNT-HD/ESPN-HD.
8:50p - started up the recording in progress from the HD channel (A side note, while going through the guide, I noticed that a red dot showed up on channel 264 I believe, a fake channel number that has shown up in the past when an OTA-HD channel is returned to and doesn't show...)
9:40-ish - finished watching the DVR event, came back live to TNT-HD and went to FSN-SW (416) to watch the Rangers game.
10-ish - left the TV/SAT on.
10:30-ish - came back to watch the end of the game (which a little bit of trick-play) and the beginning of the post-game news about the Kenny Rogers 'stuff'.
10:45-ish - finished watching the post game news and entered 005-01 (KXAS / NBC) to watch a few minutes of HD Leno.

Complete freeze up... black screen... no remote response. I can hit the guide after about maybe 15 sec... no display in the corner... tried going to a local Sat channel and went back to a black screen... about 20 sec later got the gray background at the top for showing the channel info but it didn't have any text at all. Did a power button reboot to fix it.

my 005-01 channel is my second best HD channel, typically in the 115 range. Never an issue with tuning it in the past.


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

igleaner said:


> ...how many folks would prefer to have the software rolled back to L213?


Your hopes and wishes matter not regarding a roll-back :nono2: - Those of us who agonized when the L211 "Hell-Spawn" :eek2: rained down from above were told to "pound sand" when we asked for one. I would suggest getting used to what you now have - probably have to live with it a while. :sure:


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Add a poll.

I like l215 so far. So far haven't seen any of the serious bugs I had before (cross-fingers) and only one very minor new bug.

Of course I am one of those that would like to see more smaller upgrades with a small time between updates to comment on problems. These big fixes mean SOME love it and SOME hate it.


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## erasmu (Nov 17, 2003)

For me, 215 is a big improvement. Is it perfect? No, but I can live with it this way without much trouble. I certainly would hate to go back to 213.

Ed R


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## Stingray (Dec 22, 2003)

Rollback? No thanks! My 921 has been very trouble free before 215, and now I have OTA digital guide/program information for the first time! I'm a happy viewer now!


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## bnam (Nov 25, 2004)

My 6000 used to have an option to not automatically do s/w updates and do it only after you say yes. Doesn't the 921 have the same option?

Perhaps people should set that to manual, wait a few days to see what experiences others are having and then update.

I like the features of 215. No roll back. B


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

The 921 does not have that feature. Also, There is such thing as a forced rollout that will override that option. Not saying this one would classify, but having that option does not always guarentee it will not download into your receiver. 

Rollbacks are can be risky. I don't think one is going to happen and given the posts I have seen I think more people would be upset than would happy with a rollback. I do feel for people where the 215 did effect negatively. I personally have not had enough runtime to determine a thumbs up or down.


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## kermit24 (Jun 22, 2005)

You guys that want a rollback blow me away! My 921 has never worked better. I don't get any OTA channels anyway, so I don't see that issue. My aspect ratio issues are just about gone, the search works 20 times faster, and the reciever is much more responsive and less sluggish than before.

I am much happier with L215! I am almost not as embarrased as I once was when my friends would ask after a 4 minute reboot, "How much did you pay for this thing again?"


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer (Feb 20, 2005)

No rollback. And overscan must be isolated to projection systems only as others have not complained as much on it.


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## IamtheEggman (Sep 21, 2004)

SummitAdvantageRetailer said:


> No rollback. And overscan must be isolated to projection systems only as others have not complained as much on it.


I see the overscan problem on my TV, but I don't see that its any worse than 213 was. At least it doesn't stay on stretch anymore.


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## erh1117 (Feb 1, 2005)

I don't want a rollback either, but I must say that the overscan issue baffles me. When the programmers are fixing discrete issues unrelated to picture (e.g. receiver's responsiveness), how do they screw up the overscan as much as they did??

BTW, it is NOT isolated to projectors. My RPTV has it and it is 10-15% worse now than before.


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## Indydave (Nov 28, 2004)

My vote is no on the rollback, but the overscan problem is totally unacceptable. I recorded the NDNET test pattern on 1/25, the acceptable horizontal overscan, as announced by the HDNET announcer, is the vertical line 3 or 4 on the left and right sides of the screen. In January it measured line 8 on both sides. After the 215 download it now measures line 14 on both sides. I would say it was twice what it should have been and now is over 3.5 times what it should be.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Rollback ain't gonna happen, even if all of you wanted it. All that can happen at this point is the rest of the 921 users don't get L215. And the fact is that L215 is overwhelmingly better than L213, even with the few OTA problems that are popping up and the overscan problem on SD channels output in 480i. I know that those of you being hit by those problems are really unhappy about them, and I wish there was something I could directly do about it for you, but you're in the minority at the moment. 

I can tell you this, though - I've been back and forth in email with Eldon over the weekend here about the overscan issue, so even though it's a holiday weekend here, it's not in England...


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

England IS the reason it is a holiday here! 

Are they inflicting their software problems on their own people, or is this some sort of discrimination?


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> And the fact is that L215 is overwhelmingly better than L213, even with the few OTA problems that are popping up and the overscan problem on SD channels output in 480i. I know that those of you being hit by those problems are really unhappy about them, and I wish there was something I could directly do about it for you, but you're in the minority at the moment.


I agree that a rollback is out of the question.
I will admit I do not know anymore about software development other than how to insert a CD and hit install button button. With that in mind, I do not understand how a company can make all these machines, supposedly the same way, install, supposedly, the same software and have such varied results.

I am not intending to "attack" anyone here, especially those like you that are giving out what information you can. But, I am one of those "minority" people. I had a semi-functioning device, that I paid a grand for, and had some of the value taken away months ago (2-3 upgrades earlier). To think that Eldon even considers that to be insignificant, because I am in the "minority" is just plain offensive.

Everyone should get what they paid for. I have personally had Dish to talk to me about the 921 problems. Their solution is "there is an upgrade comming". What do they do when that upgrade does nothing and in some cases makes things worse? At what point do they admit they can't do this, across the board, and take some responsibility for their lack of ability or the lack of this machines ability.

It appears there will always be a minority getting hit with problems, from one of their downloads. So they send 216 and it fixes the current minority. We all know it will also create a new minority. Waiting for the next magic download evidently is not the answer.

If I paid a grand for any other appliance, and had problems with it, I would not expect the manufacturer to say that I was in a minority so just live with it. I would expect a FULL refund or a working replacement. Is there such a thing as a working 921? And even if you got one would the next download make it worthless?

Don't get me wrong, I knew when I bought into this that there would be some problems. But, that does not give a company the right to consider an individual not as important as the whole. They sold these things individually and should stand behind them on an individual basis. If 215 helps one person, then that should be considered as one less person to "make right" and not those who got hurt a "minority".

Again, this is not meant as an attack, only a difference of opinion. It appears to me that Dish intends to look like they are working on this thing, until MPEG 4 hits, then we can all purchase a new "work in progress" and start all over.

Larry


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## sgt940 (Jan 9, 2004)

I have really had it with this unit, L213 was farily stable, I have had to reboot 4 times in 48 hour under l215. Unit locked up with a blank screen after hitting info, unit stop in the middle of watching a pre-recorded PVR and while recording another, had to reboot and lost both. Got up this moring and the red record light was blinking and unit locked up, no video or audio just the blinking red light. Power plug reboot and I now have lost all favorites, all OTA channels and both the blue HD light and the Yellow SD light is on at the same time. I want a free upgrade to a 942 or my 1,000 dollars back, no more promises of a new software upgrade. Can some one tell me where to send a certified letter or e-mail that will get read?


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## Jason Kragt (Dec 20, 2002)

sgt940 said:


> Can some one tell me where to send a certified letter or e-mail that will get read?


Go to a stock or company information web site (such as Yahoo!) to get the address of Echostar's corporate headquarters. Address it to Charlie Ergen. It will reach someone in the executive office.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Larry - I said nothing about anyone saying the problems are insignificant, just that they are the minority at the moment.


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Larry - I said nothing about anyone saying the problems are insignificant, just that they are the minority at the moment.


Mark,

First, I hope you do not take my prior post as being in any way directed at you or this site. I have the highest respect and gratitude for what you are all doing here.

I realize that you never did (and believe, never would) consider anyone or their 921 problem insignificant. Or that you implied that someone did. However, Dish needs no help in getting that belief across to its customers.

The problem I have with the Dish approach to all of this is that they will always have a minority group with problems. These are problems that should have been better designed and perhaps implemented or better tested prior to unleashing it on the Public. Especially when that upgrade has been their answer to all the current complaints. The fact that they are even willing to accept that there will be some that get no benefit from, or even suffer consequences due to their "upgrade" is the attitude that bothers me. I was merely suggesting that for some reason we, as 921 owners, seem to accept the fact that we may never see our substantial investment pay out, as it should. It is this acceptance of this particular product, as compared to other products that I see as a problem. If the HDTV, I bought was marketed and sold at the quality level of the 921, I would have expected and probally have gotten a full refund or a working replacement. This is because other companies in the same area of business, stand behind their products. Dish just asks for you to wait for the next upgrade. If that doesn't fix it, then just wait for the next one. Replacement is of no value, because regardless of how well it preforms today, the next upgrade could take it out. Please keep in mind that it was an upgrade to fix some other problem that caused the problems I have today.

If that doesn't say "insignificant", then what does?

I do not want to start a Dish bash, I just want to know what Dish expects those of us that have been waiting for the magic fix are suppose to do now that 215 didn't wasn't it? (please don't say wait). What is the next move?
Patience has not been the answer.

Sorry for the rant,
Larry


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Larry, 

I understand your frustration. I really do. I was there myself in the betas between 212 and 215. 

I know that you don't and won't believe it because of what you're going through, but the attitude of the Eldon guys couldn't be farther from what you think. I just wish I had a way of showing you what I see.


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## lapplegate (Jan 17, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Larry,
> 
> I understand your frustration. I really do. I was there myself in the betas between 212 and 215.
> 
> I know that you don't and won't believe it because of what you're going through, but the attitude of the Eldon guys couldn't be farther from what you think. I just wish I had a way of showing you what I see.


You just did. I'll wait it out (quietly).

Wanna trade 921s? 

Larry


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I would if they'd let me....


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## jergenf (Mar 31, 2005)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Larry,
> 
> I know that you don't and won't believe it because of what you're going through, but the attitude of the Eldon guys couldn't be farther from what you think.


Do any of the Eldon developers even have a 921 in their homes that they depend on for their personal viewing?


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## IamtheEggman (Sep 21, 2004)

I wonder if the rest of the 921 owners will get this release(215)? Does anyone know if all owners got it or just the original group?


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## srrobinson2 (Sep 16, 2003)

boylehome said:


> My vote is NO to a rollback to L213. My vote is YES to L216 with more fixes. L215 has some good fixes. I have found that with OTA problems and other PITA's, deleting the all OTA channels, performing a Factory Defaults, Performing a Check Switch, adding the OTA channels back and doing a 20 second power cord unplug eliminates most of the undesired problems. Yes, it is a pain but sometimes it just has to be done. Personally, I don't know if the 921's will ever be bug free and I suspect that the hardware in some respects is the cause of lots of problems affecting software interactions.


Even if it takes months to roll out as 215 did? No thanks! Give me the option to reject software upgrades and roll me back to 213!

Mark, I don't care if I'm in the majority or minority--I can no longer record HD content without setting manual timers. This problem has been fixed for many many months, and now it's back. This is absolutley unacceptable! I don't know what the difference is between my 921 and those that don't have these problems, but somebody somewhere dropped the ball on testing L215. It should NEVER have been released with something this significantly wrong in it.


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## TonyB (Jul 5, 2004)

jergenf said:


> Do any of the Eldon developers even have a 921 in their homes that they depend on for their personal viewing?


No. That I think is a part of the problem. They are in England, would be out of range of the satellite signal and use a totally different TV standard (PAL, 625 lines, no 1080 HD etc). What I don't understand is why the beta testing does not cover all the scenarios needed to fully check out the code. Mark says he has seen some of the problems in 215 between the 212 and 215 rollout, so why doesn't he now. A simple clear explanation of why would certainly help relations between E* and us users.


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## igleaner (Aug 22, 2002)

It seems like the problems with L215 are getting worse, judging by the posts on this board. 

Initially, everything seemed to work right, or maybe even better, but the longer you have L215, more problems are being discovered, not just repeats of old issues, but completely new glitches too. 

Why can't Dish just admit defeat and either give us refunds or a 942???? At this point, by continuing on software development, they are just throwing good money after bad. It's time for them to cut their losses and do the right thing!!!


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## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

The thing that really ticks me off - continues to tick me off - about all this is that we have had several releases now that, just like L215, have been great for some and disasters for others. Half the people love it; half the people hate it. Time and time again. So, it becomes painfully obvious that the 921 Beta team is way too small; their sample of 921's is not representative of the installed population. They do not encompass a diverse enough combination of hardware versions, configurations, local broadcast markets and viewing patterns and preferences.

So why the heck doesn't Dish step up to the plate and sign up a few people from this board as Beta testers - people who have "difficult" 921s, people who have consistently been hosed by each new update, people in different geographic areas, and people who are tech savvy enough to do the job. Look back at the posts, you'll see some perfect examples. I imagine some of these people would willing to do it; the direct benefit to them would be getting a problem on their box fixed in days or weeks instead of months. 

It only makes sense that if a software update could pass muster on 5 or 10 of these problem 921s before release, then the chance of it breaking our boxes when it is released, should be reduced. Users are happier. Dish bashing is diminished. The people rejoice.

Or something like that…


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

srrobinson2 - the OTA guide data problem has been identified and will be fixed as soon as possible.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Ok, here's another poll, just wondering how many people are liking L215 over L213?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43752


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