# Patriots Penalty......



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20765334/

Belicheck - $500,000
Team - $250,000

And loss of First Draft pick (if they make the playoffs)
or
Loss of 2nd and 3rd round picks if they don't make the playoffs
-------------------

What cha think?

I think it is a fitting penalty...


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

I love it but I think Belichick should have been suspended for a year.


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## Sah (Jul 17, 2006)

There have to be consequences for cheating, and it sends a strong message. A smart move on Goodell's part in my opinion.


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## Sah (Jul 17, 2006)

Oh yeah, and Go Packers!


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Fitting Penalty My A$$!!!!!!!!!!!
The team should be ineligible for the playoffs this year.
That's what happens when a college team screws up.
:rant:
And if they didn't do that, my second choice for punishment is to revolke ALL of their 2008 draft picks, no matter where they place this year.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I think the penalty should have been more severe.

Wade Wilson got suspended for 5 games and fined 100 grand for taking steriods (something along those lines) and he wasn't even a player at the time. He was coaching in *cough-cough* Chicago. IIRC, I think the rub there is that it came from a pharmacy in FL. that has been tied to some controversy.


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## ruesch37 (Sep 14, 2006)

I believe the Patriots should of had to forfeit the game as well


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## curlyjive (Jun 13, 2007)

I don't think this went far enough. The fines should have been stiffer and include the suspension of Belichick...even if only for a few games. Cheating is cheating and who knows how long this has been going on. They didn't even have a reason to cheat against the Jets! So that indicates this is a habit for them.


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## BaldEagle (Jun 19, 2006)

ruesch37 said:


> I believe the Patriots should of had to forfeit the game as well


Agree.


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

ruesch37 said:


> I believe the Patriots should of had to forfeit the game as well


I agree! J-E-T-S, JETS JETS JETS!  I'll take a win we didn't deserve (the Jets were awful!)


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## flexoffset (Jul 16, 2007)

Coming from The University of Alabama, I know a thing or two about football program penalties and sanctions.

We had a player --allegedly-- speak to an agent after we won our last national championship AFTER HE'D COMPLETED HIS LAST GAME and it killed our football program for nearly 15 years. 

A TEAM in the NFL gets busted red-handed for cheating and they're fined the monetary equivalent of a pack of bubble gum.

What a crock.
Gheez.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I think this is odd, considering the precedent set by the Wade Wilson suspension. He was suspended (as a coach) multiple games for having taken HGH. They wanted to send a message that they would treat coaches the same as players in regards to substance abuse policies... even though there is absolutely NO way a coach taking steroids can affect a team's performance.

So... if a coach is caught cheating on the field, cheating in a way that actually does/can affect the game.. I am confused as to why the coach is not suspended for that as well?

And considering the $500,000.00 fine levied against Belicheck... it is clear the league believes he did in fact cheat.

Sends a very mixed message, and while half a million is nothing to sneeze at... players get fines and suspensions so it only seems fair coaches get the same treatment.


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## jazzyd971fm (Sep 1, 2007)

Here's what should've been done : 1 Forfeit of the game ; 2 Belichick suspended 4 games & fined 1 Million Bucks ; 3 Patriots Fined 5 Million Bucks, Loss of 1st day draft picks (1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th) in 2008, & barred from Free Agent signings until July 1, 2008


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## curlyjive (Jun 13, 2007)

jazzyd971fm said:


> Here's what should've been done : 1 Forfeit of the game ; 2 Belichick suspended 4 games & fined 1 Million Bucks ; 3 Patriots Fined 5 Million Bucks, Loss of 1st day draft picks (1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th) in 2008, & barred from Free Agent signings until July 1, 2008


I would have been happy with that


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## John W (Dec 20, 2005)

jazzyd971fm said:


> Here's what should've been done : 1 Forfeit of the game ; 2 Belichick suspended 4 games & fined 1 Million Bucks ; 3 Patriots Fined 5 Million Bucks, Loss of 1st day draft picks (1st, 2nd, 3rd, & 4th) in 2008, & barred from Free Agent signings until July 1, 2008


Sounds fair.


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## JFabi82 (Jul 26, 2007)

This all gives me an excuse to say, "GO CHARGERS this Sunday!!!!!!!!!!!!"


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

According to the article: Belicheck was fined the max....

From what I have gathered from other places, the "team" wasn't fined as much, as the ownership and players were not involved.

From another article... it wasn't proven that the video taping was used to influence this particular game.... the intent (and just what was on Jay Leno with Long), was to use it during the 2nd game. So not sure that you could justifying an overturning of the game.... If anything maybe they could have made the game null/void....

As for not allowing them in the playoffs....
Then the player's union, would probably just push for the players not to play at all then "why risk their health".... and that would have a chain reaction affect accross the league, as the automatic "16 victories", or basically the lack of games decisions, could have impact on the WildCards, Division Race, Tie brakers, ect......

Let alone absolutly DESTROY fantasy football leagues out there, and cause an even more drastic impact to the fan base.

Suspending Belicheck for any number of games, would not have that big of an impact... With all the cordinators and everything else.....

I do like the idea of suspending the free agent period for them... not sure that 4 draft picks though.... that is VERY steep

As for the coach busted... I am pretty sure that they are not going to have the chance to suspend him... Pretty sure he won't have a job anywhere in league anytime soon...

As for the Wade Wilson thing....
It is such a crock.... I could care less if a coach is poping the stuff.
But it was the fact that he shipped it to Halas Hall.... That just led to the questions, and the lack of judgement... Still don't see how they could suspend him for that, unless there is some goofy clause some where.

One of the biggest crocks, is IIRC... there is no appeal process for non-players... so he couldn't even have it "reviewed" for merits of his argument.

Oh well...


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

Earl you were reading my mind. I think the Coach should be fired. And if I owned the team, he already would have been fired  It's just not money or draft picks. The Coach put the team's Super Bowls wins under a cloud of doubt as far as I'm concerned. So the NFL joins the MLB and NBA with big problems. All of this is a disgrace to all fans IMHO.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

As Earl said, fine was the max NFL could levy on Belicheck. NFL can't fire him, but they can ban him. Team still can fire him. Or they could also fine him, I think.

Belicheck claims the tapings were not used in-game but for future use and thought that was Ok. Hmm... How about the one-time games like against the Packers last season? 

It is a severe penalty (draft picks are serious business). The team had to have known something, I presume this person was on the team payroll. So the penalty seems balanced on both coach and team.

Sad times, but I'm glad the NFL took immediate action without being knee-jerk reaction.

Cheers,
Tom


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Terry Bradshaw (on Leno's "Tonight Show," recorded this afternoon) seemed to imply, after recovering from Leno pointing out that his fly was open, that everybody knows this has been going on in general for awhile. The commissioner had sent out a warning letter, and the Pats were the first to be nailed.


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## RUBBLE (Mar 6, 2006)

Belicheck should be suspended from the NFL. Forever. The Red Sox should also be fined $50 million because they probaly had something to due with it.


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## 2Guysfootball (Jul 2, 2007)

am a patriot Fan and a Football Fan.
Here is my Take.
1. The Punishment was much less severe then I thought it should have been. Should have loss Bill for two games.
2.They should have taken both First Rounds this year regardless of whether they make the playoff or not .
3. A total fine for both Team and Coach of $750,000 in a year when the Salary Cap is over $100 million is a joke.
Now having said that, You can not say that is why they won as many games as they have or all the Super Bowls, If that was the case then why haven't they gone 19-0 ?

Is there now a Cloud over the once "squeaky clean" franchise? Sure, but lets not think for one minute
that they are the only team that does this. They are just the team most thought was the least likely to do it If this was the Raiders,Lions,Browns I am sure there wouldn't be this much of an uproar about it.
But it was the Patriots and now everyone can have there A·HA see they cheated thats why we lost two years ago,Etc. But think about this if they did this a team that really didn't need to do something like this what are Other Teams doing??


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## dirchm0628 (Sep 4, 2007)

I am a Patriots fan so if you think this is biased, it is.

When Shawn Merriman was suspended for steriods they didn't fine the organization or remove draft picks. They suspended him for for games and fined him. I believe the organiziation payed too mush for Bill's actions. He should have been fined the 250K and suspended for four games. That's it. 

the overzealous posters who think he got off easy are just jealous J-E-T-S fans who have no shot of winning the superbowl this year or any other year. Their still envious that Belicheck chose a much classier organization as opposed to staying in NY to be their head coach.

Good Morning everybody!!!!


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## pete4192 (May 22, 2007)

RUBBLE said:


> Belicheck should be suspended from the NFL. Forever. The Red Sox should also be fined $50 million because they probaly had something to due with it.


Nice. I'm not even a BoSox fan, but you have to send this to The SportsGuy...absolutely hilarious.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Their Salary Cap should be reduced 20% for the next 3 years.


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## db1113 (Aug 25, 2007)

If they'd just go to the defensive captain wearing a ear piece in his helmet like the QB does there would be no more of this problem.


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## jimrobinette (Aug 31, 2007)

Yeah, they should be glad they are not the McLaren team in F1.....$100 million dollar fine for stealing itellectual property from Ferrari. Yes, you read that correctly......

"In addition, the WMSC also determined that McLaren's 2008 challenger will come under scrutiny before being raced to ensure it doesn't benefit from any intellectual property belonging to Ferrari.

Hamilton and Alonso keep their drivers' points and continue to lead the championship. (LAT Photo) MORE PHOTOS

*Finally, the Woking, UK-based outfit will have to pay a staggering $100m fine*."



2Guysfootball said:


> .....
> 3. A total fine for both Team and Coach of $750,000 in a year when the Salary Cap is over $100 million is a joke.


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## bluemoon737 (Feb 21, 2007)

dirchm0628 said:


> I am a Patriots fan so if you think this is biased, it is.
> 
> When Shawn Merriman was suspended for steriods they didn't fine the organization or remove draft picks. They suspended him for for games and fined him. I believe the organiziation payed too mush for Bill's actions. He should have been fined the 250K and suspended for four games. That's it.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm a Cowboys and Browns fan and although it ended up being more than I expected, I do not think it was enough. As has been brought up on the Cowboys website...the last time they played (12-0 Pats at NE) there were two times during the second half of the game that the Pats called the "perfect" opposite side screen plays from where a blitz was coming...those two plays made a HUGE difference in that game. It's stuff like these things that will now have people scratching their heads. The bottom line is it was cheating plain and simple and was something the Commissioner himself had told teams not to do.

This is a HUGE black eye on the sport and that is a shame since the NFL has been doing things to clean up an already pretty good image...the NFL has been taking proactive measures to prevent falling to the depths of the other sports but this just washes away much of that effort. I hope this is taken into consideration by the HOF voters when it comes time to consider Belicheck. He should be banned from the NFL indefinitely.


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

:nono2: AS a patriots fan this makes me sick that this happened. now everytime we win a game, they'll say we won because we cheated. why couldn't this have happened to the dallas cowboys or the new york yankees? BTW if i owned the patriots i'd fire the coach for emberasing the team


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## dmurphy (Sep 28, 2006)

dirchm0628 said:


> the overzealous posters who think he got off easy are just jealous J-E-T-S fans who have no shot of winning the superbowl this year or any other year. Their still envious that Belicheck chose a much classier organization as opposed to staying in NY to be their head coach.


Do I think that Belichick got off easy? No - $500k is still a lot of money to a guy like him - he's not nearly as wealthy as the owners are.

I also think the penalty against the Patriots was appropriate. I understand not forfeiting the game (the Jets in no way deserved to win that game, sorry to say!), because as Earl stated a while back - that causes a ripple effect throughout the NFL. Not sure what else to do without having a huge impact on the league, but I agree with the commissioners' statement that the penalty is longer-lasting than a suspension would have been.

I think Roger Goodell did an excellent job with this -- he took the time to find an appropriate penalty which is meaningful, but does not harm the NFL. Kudos to him!

(and yes, I'm a lowly Jets fan.)


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

The penalties were severe but not severe enough. The Pats did this the first week of the season right after Goodell gave the team's a stern warning about this. This isn't the Pats' first time.

Also, there have been many comments from players saying that when they played New England it was almost as if the Pats knew what play was coming. Several also mentioned that when they were in scoring drives and deep in Patriots' territory, all of a sudden the helmet radios would lose their signals. Hmmm .... I think they should have also lost both first-round picks and, if they made the playoffs, the second pick, too.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

dmurphy said:


> I agree! J-E-T-S, JETS JETS JETS!  I'll take a win we didn't deserve (the Jets were awful!)


I agree the Jets didn't deserve the win as bad as they played, but I also agree that because the Pats were caught cheating they should've forfeited the win and gave it to the Jets anyway.


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## flexoffset (Jul 16, 2007)

jimrobinette said:


> Yeah, they should be glad they are not the McLaren team in F1.....$100 million dollar fine for stealing itellectual property from Ferrari. Y
> 
> "In addition, the WMSC also determined that McLaren's 2008 challenger will come under scrutiny before being raced to ensure it doesn't benefit from any intellectual property belonging to Ferrari.
> 
> ...


I saw this on BBC News late last night. 
100 million probably isn't much for McLaren in the scheme of things.
The interesting thing is: I think they got 'em where it hurts -- Constructor (WCC) points. Pride, ego, etc.

I would bet if they penalized football players and coaches by modding their STATS they would not have these behavior and cheating issues.

Their egos are based on the stats they accumulate over a career.
Shave a 20 wins off Bellicheck's record to lower his winning percentage.

Other players with conduct problems:
Hit rushers with a 500 yard penalty for two seasons.
Hit linebackers with a 25 tackle penalty for two seasons.
THAT will hurt. 
Hitting the pocket book of the infinitely wealthy ani't gonna get it done.

These guys have unlimited money. Their stats are more precious.

(IMHO)


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## chopperjc (Oct 2, 2006)

Richard King said:


> Their Salary Cap should be reduced 20% for the next 3 years.


Why should the market place for the employee's be penalized? I understand you think you are hurting the team but in reality you are hurting the players. With revenue sharing ownership is going to make there money regardless.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

With regards to the argument I've heard saying "if they cheated to win games like the past superbowls, why did they not win more superbowls or why not be undefeated?"

A couple of things... One is, even if they know the other team's plays they still have to execute against them. Sometimes they may not have matched up well physically, and couldn't cheat past that. Another is, the level of their success may still be proportional to the cheating. Say they would have lost a close game, then cheating may help them win a close game... but a blowout loss they would still lose in a close one or their close win becomes a blowout.

Cheating in this manner is not the kind of cheating that guarantees you a win. Take chess as an example, since people like to talk about coaching "chess matches"... knowing what your opponent is going to do in chess doesn't mean you can beat him. It just means you can prolong the game and tie him if he continues to play perfect. Or like in tic-tac-toe, if both players play perfect then every game ends in a tie... but with football there is a physical aspect so that even if both coaches call the perfect play, the players (all 22 on the field at any given time) have to execute... and sometimes a perfect offense beats a perfect defense, and vice-versa. Also, with a timed game.. sometimes the winner is the team with the ball last and not enough time for the other team to do anything. How many games did the Patriots win in "shootouts" because they got the last field goal at the end of the game?

I'm not saying everything they have ever achieved is from cheating... Not sure anyone could prove that. But it is fair to wonder, and it casts a lot of doubt.


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## dirchm0628 (Sep 4, 2007)

The Patriots will put this all to rest when they soundly defeat the Chargers on Sunday night without the aid of video equipment.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

dirchm0628 said:


> The Patriots will put this all to rest when they soundly defeat the Chargers on Sunday night without the aid of video equipment.


There is nothing they could do to put any of this to rest.
You are going to hear about it all the way until at least past the DRAFT next year...


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

curlyjive said:


> I don't think this went far enough. The fines should have been stiffer and include the suspension of Belichick...even if only for a few games. Cheating is cheating and who knows how long this has been going on. They didn't even have a reason to cheat against the Jets! So that indicates this is a habit for them.


I also read that the way it was discovered was from a former Patriots employee now working for the Jets who knew they had done this before. I heard they were accused last year of the same thing but there wasn't enough proof to follow through on it. Sorry I can't remember all the details, read it in passing over the last few days.

So bigger fines, suspension (or firing) of the coach and forfeit of the game they cheated in would have been a more appropriate penalty in my opinion.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

The same person was ejected from the Pats. @ Packers last season but the Packer security did not retain the camera nor alert the NFL at the time.

Cheers,
Tom


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## kylebj (Dec 2, 2006)

IMHO, he should have been suspended a min of 6 games and fined the $500k. As others have pointed out, Wade took something for himself. As far as we know, he did not pass it along to players. What Belicheat did damaged the Integrity of the game. Per ESPN, Wade is thinking about asking the NFL to explain the difference in their penalties. I think he's right to do so. What I am curious about is if any networks have footage of this guy videotaping the other team. If it happens all the time and the guy is on the sideline, you would think a camera panning would catch him in the act.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Besides the fines and loss of draftpick(s), why not have NE forfeit the game to the Jets?!?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

n3ntj said:


> Besides the fines and loss of draftpick(s), why not have NE forfeit the game to the Jets?!?


I would imagine that it was probably hard for them to prove the cheating was actually used during the game. Is there any precedent for pro teams forfeiting games? I can't say I have heard of that happening except with college sports. I know it always seems weird to me when colleges forfeit games, because they can't retroactively play other games again to see how that changes things (like when a team cheats in the playoffs and they give the win back to the opponent but obviously they can't retroactively replay the rest of the tournament/playoffs).

I'm ok with most of the punishment handed down, but the lack of game suspension for the coach really surprised me. I think a lot of folks have reason to be knocking on Goodell's door to ask why they have game suspensions and not Belichick.

FYI, I have not been a Patriots-hater.. I am not a fan per se, as I have other teams I like before them and other players on other teams... but I was never a hater on them just because they won, and in several cases beat teams I was rooting for... but I do have some doubts now as I had been buying into the "they do it the right way" mantra.

Also, combine this coaching cheating with the HGH-taking suspension of one of their marque players recently and you start to wonder.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

The 1st round pick should have been mandatory. If so, I think the punishment was fine. I wished it was $1 million towards Belicheat


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## wilssm (Sep 1, 2007)

I would love to see the Patriots have a losing season now, starting with a big loss to the Chargers this weekend.


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## Galley (Apr 3, 2007)

$750,000 is nuts; $100 million is crazy insane!


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

I guess I'm in the minority here.

This is *ludicrous*. One of the articles I read on this quoted the rule that the Patriots broke. It says that no video recording devices shall be on the field or in the coaches boxes during the game.

Ok. Fine.

So - if I have someone IN THE STANDS with a high-powered zoom lens and tripod, THAT is legal?

Oh - wait - maybe the VCR in the owner's box is illegal because CBS might show the defensive coordinator flashing a signal.

This is IDIOTIC. I understand the rule and why it's there - but 3/4 million in fines and one or two draft picks? And yet an illegal hit that can paralyze someone is 15 yards. And then to compare Wade Wilson's suspension shows just how mentally detached the NFL is in this case.

So now what about those NFL Films people? After all, the Pats emplyee had a recorder (no live transmisisons going anywhere), equivalent to the film cameras used by NFL Films. WIll it be illegal for NFL Films to send tapes to the teams?

You scout these teams weeks in advance, watching films, plotting trends, making scouting reports.

This smacks to me of the NFL equivalent of "break up the Yankees".


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

djlong, are you a Pats' fan? There's a major difference with the VCR in the owner's box and what the Pats were doing. The VCR will rarely show a coach's signs. However, this particular Pats' employee was intentionally recording the signs (which were being fed to the assistants in the coaches' box. Those assistants were matching up the play calling with the signs. The league was very specific about this issue. The league informed the coaches that it took this seriously. They also spoke to the Pats about this because they were caught doing it last year. Using these tapes takes away the integrity. So rather than wait a little while, the Pats did it in week one. They didn't care. They arrogantly went out and did it again. There were multiple instances of teams saying that in the middle of a scoring drive their helmets all of a sudden lost contact with the coaching staff. There were other instances where the Pats knew exactly where the players were going to be. 
As far as the illegal hits which can cause injuries, the players who do things like this are usually suspended. The 15-yard penalty is the game's way of recognizing the issue and punishing the player. The league (such as in this case) will handle any suspensions later on.


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## HIPAR (May 15, 2005)

Most of you Patriot haters would still not be satisfied if the penalty was to disenfranchise the entire franchise.

My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time--
To let the punishment fit the crime--
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!
Of innocent merriment!


--- CHAS


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

purtman - yes, I'm a fan. I go back to the days of Jim Plunkett and Sam "Bam" Cunningham. Now, the Patriots broke the rules - I'm not arguing that. 

What I'm talking about is this whole *hysteria* over this. I absolutely think the fine is ok. It's their perogative. I think the draft pick is a bit much but, again, it's the league's rules that the Top Dog gets to decide that.

What I'm having trouble with is the whole "they won only because they cheated" bit. Now, explain to me how having RECORDED signals on a tape in a guy's camera can *instantly* cause Randy Moss to run through THREE Jets receivers for a touchdown before anyone can review the tape.

So if I'm the Patriots, I now wonder if it's ok for me to have a couple of stringers in the stands with binoculars and a cell phone. You can record signals just as easily. I mean, you have to be *stupid* to not at least try to gain some sort of "tip off" as to what's coming - heck that's Tom Brady's job (look at films of previous weeks to see if a linebacker might top something off with his movements). So the Patriots crossed a line and they're paying a penalty for it. I'm not *crazy* about it, but that's the price you pay - the rules are the rules.

But the hysteria over wanting wins taken away, Belichik banned, and the *idiocy* of thinking the Patriots won all those games and championships ONLY because of electronic recording are forgetting you STILL have to execute and there are still 22 guys on that field who can make mistakes. One of the guys talking on ESPN this mroning said "if someone thinks this is why the Patriots won and that it will tarnish their image, they don't know anything about football".

To me, Harrison's suspension is more of a 'tarnish' on the Patriot's image than "Cameragate".


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

djlong said:


> But the hysteria over wanting wins taken away, Belichik banned, and the *idiocy* of thinking the Patriots won all those games and championships ONLY because of electronic recording are forgetting you STILL have to execute and there are still 22 guys on that field who can make mistakes. One of the guys talking on ESPN this mroning said "if someone thinks this is why the Patriots won and that it will tarnish their image, they don't know anything about football".


I'm not into the hysteria either... but logistically, if what they were doing was cheating and rules were in place explicitly prohibiting it... and they were willing to risk getting caught cheating, there *must* have been some gain. Bank robbers rob banks in hopes that they will get away with money and risk getting caught for the reward.. if there wasn't any money in there, they wouldn't rob it! So I have to think some competitive advantage must be gained from the Patriots' actions otherwise why would they risk violating a rule, especially in such an obvious manner?

I'm not willing to go as far as to say all their wins are the result or all their Superbowls are the result of cheating... but you can't help but wonder how much gain there was for them to risk doing this multiple times. That's what sticks out to me.

Also, I may have been OK with the huge fine and the draft picks if they hadn't just suspended Wade Wilson (coach) for taking HGH for his own "performance" enhancement in the bedroom. Not a player, but a coach... and his team cannot possibly gain anything from a coach taking HGH... but he gets suspended multiple games. Meanwhile a coach caught actually cheating in a way that could have effected game outcome, gets no suspension?

That's what seems screwy to me.



djlong said:


> To me, Harrison's suspension is more of a 'tarnish' on the Patriot's image than "Cameragate".


I agree... although, when you put the two things together... it starts to form the beginning of a pattern of cheating by a team that had otherwise had a very clean image.. a model franchise for the NFL on how to win with teamwork the right way... and now in less than a year's time, a coach and a player found to be cheating. At that point you simply have to wonder how else they might be cheating.

Keep in mind that I'm sure other teams are cheating if they can.. and we know lots of other players are into performance enhancing drugs.. so the Patriots are not the "evil" of the league.. but it is a real shame for a franchise to have had such a good rep be found to have done some bad things.


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## dirchm0628 (Sep 4, 2007)

dirchm0628 said:


> The Patriots will put this all to rest when they soundly defeat the Chargers on Sunday night without the aid of video equipment.


Enough said!!


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## stevecon (Sep 6, 2006)

dirchm0628 said:


> The Patriots will put this all to rest when they soundly defeat the Chargers on Sunday night without the aid of video equipment.


Done (in EVERY quarter, too)!


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## stevecon (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree that video taping was a serious lapse in judgement by Bill, but I wonder how many other teams are guilty of breaking serious rules as well. While this is not not a defense for his actions, the rule was implemented years ago - most likely as a result of similar shenanigans, by OTHERS. Why by others? Because if Bill was responsible for it then, I doubt he'd be working in the NFL now.

The fine and penalties should prevent this from happening again for while, by any team. 

Was anyone else amazed at all the ACCEPTED intel gathering (cameras, printouts, etc.) that goes on during a game? This is definitely BIG business, and teams (coaches & owners) look for ANY edge they can find.


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## paja (Oct 23, 2006)

HDMe said:


> I'm not into the hysteria either... but logistically, if what they were doing was cheating and rules were in place explicitly prohibiting it... and they were willing to risk getting caught cheating, there *must* have been some gain. Bank robbers rob banks in hopes that they will get away with money and risk getting caught for the reward.. if there wasn't any money in there, they wouldn't rob it! So I have to think some competitive advantage must be gained from the Patriots' actions otherwise why would they risk violating a rule, especially in such an obvious manner?
> 
> I'm not willing to go as far as to say all their wins are the result or all their Superbowls are the result of cheating... but you can't help but wonder how much gain there was for them to risk doing this multiple times. That's what sticks out to me.
> 
> ...


That is assuming that you believe Wilson was taking the HGH himself. Maybe it couldn't be proved but the implication is there that Wilson MAY have been getting the HGH for someone else. Now you don't possibly think that Wilson would be giving HGH to one of his players, now do you???:lol:


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## txtommy (Dec 30, 2006)

What's the big deal? Stealing signals? It's done in baseball all the time. Just part of the game. If the quarterbacks aren't smart enough to call their own plays, then the coaches need to come up with a flexible system of signals that can't be easily read by the opposing team. I say all is fair and the punishment is dumb.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I was afraid I'd get flamed for saying this, but a couple of other posters have made me brave.

Sure he broke the rule and has been punished, but does anyone besides me think it is stupid to make it against the rules to record something clearly visible on the sidelines during a public event? 

It's not like someone sneaked into a closed practice and filmed something. I understand enforcing a rule, but I think the rule is pretty far "out there" to begin with.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Flame...off 

Paulman182, I've wondered this both ways. Signal stealing has been a part of the game forever.  

I feel that attempts to jam or steal radio and phone line signals is wrong, that goes beyond the spirit of fun. But watching the signals being called in front of 80,000 fans seems to be sorta even part of the chess match.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

For the record... I'm not against stealing signals. I'm also not against filming the opponent's sideline per se. However, when it is a rule and one team is caught doing it and the other team is not doing it... then that is an advantage. One team was abiding by the rule and the other wasn't in this particular case.

If literally everyone was doing it... then they would not have just caught New England (they would have caught the Jets too)... so in this particular case they caught the only team doing it.

You can't say that it isn't right to penalize one crook if other crooks are getting away with crimes and not being caught... You punish who you catch and try to catch the rest.

From a moral point of view, I'm not convinced the Patriots did anything *that* bad... however, they did violate a rule.. and if the rules are to have meaning then there must be a penalty.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

stevecon said:


> I agree that video taping was a serious lapse in judgement by Bill


So, when the Packers turned him in...oh, and the Lions....those were just two other lapses in judgement?

It's obvious this wasn't a 1 week thing considering two other teams turned him in


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Sometimes I think a lot of the Patriot's "clean image" is a result of the law of averages. This is the team that:

- almost lost a head coach due to being electrocuted by a microphone at a press conference.

- had it's star wide receiver (Irving Fryar) in a domestic dispute resulting in him butting up his hand ON THE EVE OF THEIR FIRST SUPER BOWL.

- had it's coach (Chuck Fairbanks) resign just before the playoffs resulting in the owner taking the coach to court to FORCE him to coach the playoff game (which they predictably lost). And then, on the eve of their second SUper Bowl, the coach (Bill Parcells) won't even pay lip service to whether or not he wants to stay with his players and coach the last year od his contract (and they predictably lost, but were much more competitive)

- played in a college stadium where they had to dress at a hotel across a busy street in Cambridge.

- built a stadium that, in it's first game, had all the toilets back up because nobody had tested the water system under "crowd conditions".

- had a player sexually harass a Boston Herald female reporter in the locker room (I won't go into the explicit details but, believe me, it wasn't just 'joking around'). IN THE 1990s! ....and then had the owner (Victor Kiam) joke about it ("I guess she saw a REAL Patriot Missile!) at a public dinner!

There's a reason that the Patriots were known as the Patsies for so very long.


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## jimbo09 (Sep 26, 2006)

If they can figure out Peyton Manning's signals and audibles...then I'd be impressed. :lol: 

He was concerned about beating his protege again, and we have to figure there was a good reason why Mangini knew of his operation...it's been going on a long time. 

A fair punishment would have been a suspension equivalent to what all these "bad boy" players get (4 games), and change the score to read Jets 14 Patriots 0. Give the draft pick to the Jets. That would actually ensure the teams don't cheat. Basically the Patriots payed less that a million dollars for a guaranteed victory. 

At this rate they'd only have to pay 10-12 million to guarantee a playoff spot...what? 20-25 million in fines to win the super bowl...keep cheating, it's cheaper than the salary cap.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

That's an interesting thought... about giving the draft pick to the team you were caught cheating against. That would be a particularly damning penalty if you not only lose a draft pick but it goes to the team you were cheating against.


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## dbconsultant (Sep 13, 2005)

HDMe said:


> That's an interesting thought... about giving the draft pick to the team you were caught cheating against. That would be a particularly damning penalty if you not only lose a draft pick but it goes to the team you were cheating against.


Ooh, I like it! Nothing like a little poetic justice!!!


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

jimbo09 said:


> Basically the Patriots payed less that a million dollars for a guaranteed victory.


And here I thought Randy Moss running past and through triple coverage making the Jets look like they were wearing cement shoes was more of a factor.

You still have to *execute* - and stealing those signals was only illegal THE WAY THEY DID IT - and it was for the next game with the Jets. I can't imagien that was all the Patriots were doing to grab the defensive signals. Other players have said all the other teams "do it" - guys with binoculars, scouts looking at practices, etc.

And how did the Patriots score on the opening drive when the first 10-15 plays on defense are already scripted and memorized?

And I love how the Chargers got thumped so badly after all the trash talk. I wonder if they thought the Patriots would be easier pickings because of the attention that EVERYONE would be paying to the sidelines to ensure no funny business was going on.


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

djlong said:


> You still have to *execute*


Makes it a lot easier to execute

No one is saying the Patriots are a bad team or even anything but a great team

But, they got caught cheating. Bottom line.

Belicheck is not an idiot. If it wasn't helping them, he wouldn't have been doing it.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

To be fair... the Patriots (Belichick) have been alleged to have done this for years and have a file of film for most of the league's coaches. The commissioner asked for the organization to turn over all of those files and films for his review.

So... if they have a file on most coaches... then every game becomes the "next game" at some point... so, as a for instance, they could have a file on Norv Turner from his time with the 49ers, or Washington even... and that *could* have helped them in last Sunday's game.

Not trying to fuel the conspiracy theory... but if you are cheating for "the next game" long enough, then it eventually catches up to being able to cheat in the current game.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

While not my favorite team, I've always had a soft spot for the Patriots. I think Belichick will go down in history as one of the greatest coaches in NFL history and Brady is a very talented quarterback. I really have no opinion on this whole thing, but I'm surprised no one posted this yet.

Tax Profs: Bill Belichick Can Deduct His $500,000 Fine


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## ShapeGSX (Sep 17, 2006)

This is a pretty funny thread to read 5 months later.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

ShapeGSX said:


> This is a pretty funny thread to read 5 months later.


Ha ha, yeah in hind sight it is a funny read. :lol: :lol:


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

Especially now that there are some new (now publicized anyway) about other possible incidents.


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## yuppers519 (Aug 6, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> While not my favorite team, I've always had a soft spot for the Patriots. I think Belichick will go down in history as one of the greatest coaches in NFL history and Brady is a very talented quarterback. I really have no opinion on this whole thing, but I'm surprised no one posted this yet.
> 
> Tax Profs: Bill Belichick Can Deduct His $500,000 Fine


1. How in the world can you have a soft spot for an arch enemy of the bills. must not be a bills fan?
2. How can u have a soft spot for cheaters?


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