# SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info in Post#1 - Live!



## Sixto

*Updated 05/12/2010 - Time since Launch: *







(hit refresh to update)

*DirecTV-12 (D12) / RB-2A ("BSS") Satellite:*

D12 Status:
D12 has now reached it's final location, and it's expected that the first 5 new national HD channels from D12 will be available in May, mostly likely at *6am ET on 5/19/2010*.
D12 launched on 12/28/2009 (Monday) at 7:22pm ET - Launch Video
If you currently receive MPEG4 HD channels via H2x/HR2x receivers from D10, you will be able to receive the new HD channels from D12.
Initially, D12 will pickup the complete HD workload from D10, along with approximately 5 new HD channels. Details in the D10 thread.

D12 National / Continental US (CONUS) - Callsign S2797:
16 transponders (TP9-TP24) of additional national HD bandwidth for MPEG4 HD from 102.765°
Assuming utilization similar to D10/D11, each transponder could support up to 5 HD channels, for a total capacity of 80 additional national HD channels
Within the existing Ka-Hi (19890-20200 MHz) frequency range, *supported with the current Dish/LNB*
Spaceway-1 (SW1) is currently allocated the entire Ka-Hi (19700-20200) frequency range, therefore it's expected that SW1 and D12 will now share the range, with SW1 using the lower end, and D12 using the higher end of Ka-Hi

D12 Local-in-Local (LiL):
10 transponders (TP15-TP24) of spot beam bandwidth for MPEG4 HD LiL from 102.765°
Supporting 49 spot beams
Within the existing Ka-Lo (18600-18800 MHz) frequency range (same as D10), *supported with the current Dish/LNB*
The spot beam bandwidth is for in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of either D10 or D11 (if D12 were moved to 99°)

D12 RB-2A ("BSS") - Callsign S2796:
Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 102.765°
Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range, with a new LNB expected/required
"This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".











*DirecTV-12 Orbital History - Final Update on 5/11/2010 after CONUS signal was received from D12:*


Code:


DirecTV-12 178
1 36131U 09075A   10132.43150865 -.00000090  00000-0  10000-3 0  1787
2 36131 000.1117 065.3154 0000579 163.2246 054.1176 01.00266182  1422

Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-12-2010 10:21:22
Orbit # at Epoch	142
Inclination		0.112
RA of A. Node		65.315
Eccentricity		0.0000579
Argument of Perigee	163.225
Revs per day		1.00266182
Period			23h 56m 10s (1436.17 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 791 km
Element number / age	178 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.7797° W
Lat			0.0645° S
Alt (km)		35 786.230

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
178 05-12 10:21 35,786 x 35,791      5 +22.36H 134.42D 102.78°W  0.06°S  0.11°
177 05-11 12:00 35,785 x 35,786      1 +29.86H 133.48D 102.80°W  0.07°S  0.09°
176 05-10 06:08 36,001 x 36,043     42 +24.51H 132.24D 106.00°W  0.02°N  0.10°
175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°
182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°
169 04-28 09:50 35,776 x 35,797     21 + 7.49H 120.39D  76.03°W  0.05°S  0.09°
168 04-28 02:20 35,779 x 35,795     16 +19.15H 120.08D  76.01°W  0.05°N  0.08°
167 04-27 07:12 35,778 x 35,795     17 + 1.98H 119.28D  75.99°W  0.01°S  0.08°
166 04-27 05:13 35,781 x 35,793     12 +24.75H 119.20D  76.03°W  0.01°N  0.08°
165 04-26 04:28 35,781 x 35,793     12 +24.91H 118.17D  76.03°W  0.02°N  0.08°
164 04-25 03:33 35,781 x 35,793     12 +16.16H 117.13D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.07°
163 04-24 11:24 35,781 x 35,793     12 +25.79H 116.46D  76.05°W  0.05°S  0.07°
162 04-23 09:36 35,781 x 35,793     12 +24.23H 115.38D  76.04°W  0.04°S  0.07°
161 04-22 09:22 35,781 x 35,793     12 +28.13H 114.38D  76.04°W  0.04°S  0.07°
160 04-21 05:14 35,781 x 35,793     12 +45.42H 113.20D  76.02°W  0.02°N  0.07°
159 04-19 07:49 35,781 x 35,792     11 +22.93H 111.31D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.07°
158 04-18 08:53 35,781 x 35,793     12 +14.89H 110.35D  76.03°W  0.03°S  0.07°
157 04-17 18:00 35,780 x 35,793     13 +30.33H 109.73D  76.04°W  0.03°S  0.07°
156 04-16 11:40 35,780 x 35,793     13 +25.19H 108.47D  76.04°W  0.04°S  0.06°
155 04-15 10:28 35,780 x 35,794     14 + 0.00H 107.42D  76.05°W  0.04°S  0.06°
154 04-15 10:28 35,779 x 35,793     14 + 8.24H 107.42D  76.04°W  0.04°S  0.06°
153 04-15 02:14 35,778 x 35,794     16 +14.33H 107.08D  76.02°W  0.03°N  0.06°
152 04-14 11:54 35,777 x 35,794     17 + 8.13H 106.48D  76.05°W  0.04°S  0.06°
151 04-14 03:47 35,779 x 35,795     16 +19.30H 106.14D  76.02°W  0.01°N  0.06°
150 04-13 08:29 35,779 x 35,795     16 + 4.15H 105.34D  76.03°W  0.03°S  0.06°
149 04-13 04:20 35,778 x 35,796     18 +25.86H 105.17D  76.01°W  0.00°N  0.05°
148 04-12 02:28 35,778 x 35,795     17 +15.10H 104.09D  76.00°W  0.01°N  0.05°
147 04-11 11:23 35,778 x 35,795     17 +19.69H 103.46D  76.03°W  0.04°S  0.07°
147 04-10 15:41 35,778 x 35,796     18 + 6.05H 102.64D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.07°
146 04-10 09:38 35,778 x 35,795     17 + 7.17H 102.39D  76.01°W  0.04°S  0.07°
145 04-09 02:28 35,778 x 35,795     17 +15.25H 102.09D  75.99°W  0.02°N  0.04°
144 04-09 11:13 35,778 x 35,795     17 + 5.69H 101.45D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.04°
143 04-09 05:31 35,779 x 35,794     15 +22.89H 101.21D  75.99°W  0.00°N  0.07°
143 04-08 06:38 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 2.14H 100.26D  75.99°W  0.01°S  0.07°
142 04-08 04:29 35,779 x 35,794     15 +20.33H 100.17D  75.99°W  0.02°N  0.07°
141 04-07 08:10 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 5.00H  99.32D  76.00°W  0.01°S  0.04°
140 04-07 03:10 35,780 x 35,793     13 +18.91H  99.12D  75.99°W  0.01°N  0.04°
139 04-06 08:15 35,780 x 35,793     13 +23.91H  98.33D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.04°
138 04-05 08:21 35,779 x 35,794     15 +15.95H  97.33D  76.01°W  0.02°S  0.05°
137 04-04 16:24 35,780 x 35,793     13 +25.67H  96.67D  76.04°W  0.00°S  0.05°
136 04-03 14:43 35,780 x 35,792     12 +26.97H  95.60D  76.04°W  0.01°S  0.05°
135 04-02 11:45 35,780 x 35,792     12 +14.43H  94.47D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
134 04-01 21:19 35,781 x 35,793     12 +11.02H  93.87D  76.04°W  0.02°N  0.05°
133 04-01 10:18 35,785 x 35,793      8 + 8.27H  93.41D  76.06°W  0.03°N  0.05°
132 04-01 02:02 35,780 x 35,793     13 +22.56H  93.07D  76.04°W  0.00°S  0.03°
131 03-31 03:28 35,781 x 35,793     12 + 0.00H  92.13D  76.04°W  0.01°S  0.03°
130 03-31 03:28 35,781 x 35,793     12 +25.18H  92.13D  76.04°W  0.00°S  0.04°
129 03-30 02:17 35,781 x 35,793     12 +33.81H  91.08D  76.04°W  0.01°N  0.05°
128 03-28 16:28 35,782 x 35,792     10 +14.35H  89.67D  76.06°W  0.01°N  0.05°
127 03-28 02:07 35,781 x 35,792     11 +16.30H  89.07D  76.03°W  0.02°N  0.05°
126 03-27 09:49 35,781 x 35,792     11 +27.02H  88.39D  76.05°W  0.02°S  0.05°
125 03-26 06:48 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 4.58H  87.27D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
124 03-26 02:13 35,781 x 35,792     11 +18.01H  87.08D  76.03°W  0.01°N  0.04°
123 03-25 08:13 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 6.04H  86.33D  76.05°W  0.02°S  0.04°
122 03-25 02:10 35,780 x 35,792     12 +16.20H  86.08D  76.03°W  0.01°S  0.03°
122 03-24 09:58 35,782 x 35,794     12 + 4.00H  85.40D  76.06°W  0.00°N  0.02°
121 03-24 05:58 35,781 x 35,794     13 +23.69H  85.23D  76.05°W  0.02°S  0.05°
120 03-23 06:17 35,779 x 35,795     16 + 9.28H  84.25D  76.06°W  0.02°S  0.04°
119 03-22 21:00 35,780 x 35,794     14 + 7.74H  83.86D  76.04°W  0.02°N  0.04°
118 03-22 13:16 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H  83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
117 03-22 13:16 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H  83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
117 03-20 09:48 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H  81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
116 03-19 19:42 35,780 x 35,794     14 +15.18H  80.81D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.05°
115 03-19 04:31 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H  80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°
114 03-18 01:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +22.28H  79.07D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.05°
113 03-17 03:40 35,779 x 35,794     15 +45.63H  78.14D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
112 03-15 06:02 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 0.00H  76.24D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
111 03-15 06:02 35,779 x 35,795     16 +21.40H  76.24D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°
110 03-14 08:37 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 6.67H  75.34D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°
109 03-14 01:57 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 9.90H  75.07D  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.05°
108 03-13 16:03 35,780 x 35,792     12 +12.06H  74.65D  76.02°W  0.02°N  0.06°
107 03-13 04:00 35,778 x 35,795     17 +40.86H  74.15D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
106 03-11 11:08 35,778 x 35,796     18 +24.12H  72.45D  76.03°W  0.02°S  0.05°
105 03-10 11:01 35,778 x 35,796     18 +29.27H  71.44D  76.03°W  0.00°S  0.05°
103 03-09 05:45 35,778 x 35,796     18 + 9.28H  70.22D  76.00°W  0.04°S  0.05°
102 03-08 20:28 35,778 x 35,796     18 +41.89H  69.84D  76.00°W  0.03°N  0.06°
101 03-07 02:35 35,779 x 35,795     16 +14.86H  68.09D  75.97°W  0.02°S  0.06°
100 03-06 11:43 35,778 x 35,795     17 +30.04H  67.47D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.06°
098 03-05 05:41 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 3.60H  66.22D  75.98°W  0.05°S  0.07°
097 03-05 02:04 35,779 x 35,794     15 +23.37H  66.07D  75.97°W  0.02°S  0.07°
096 03-04 02:42 35,781 x 35,793     12 +22.80H  65.10D  75.97°W  0.03°S  0.07°
095 03-03 03:54 35,775 x 35,793     18 +23.96H  64.15D  75.97°W  0.04°S  0.07°
094 03-02 03:57 35,781 x 35,793     12 +10.11H  63.15D  75.99°W  0.04°S  0.07°
093 03-01 17:50 35,781 x 35,793     12 +11.96H  62.73D  76.01°W  0.06°N  0.08°
092 03-01 05:52 35,785 x 35,789      4 +16.35H  62.23D  76.01°W  0.06°S  0.07°
091 02-28 13:32 35,785 x 35,789      4 + 6.04H  61.55D  76.00°W  0.02°N  0.08°
090 02-28 07:29 35,785 x 35,789      4 +24.97H  61.30D  76.00°W  0.05°S  0.08°
089 02-27 06:31 35,785 x 35,789      4 +42.98H  60.26D  76.00°W  0.06°S  0.08°
088 02-25 11:32 35,785 x 35,789      4 +31.87H  58.47D  75.99°W  0.02°S  0.08°
086 02-24 03:40 35,784 x 35,789      5 +45.94H  57.14D  75.99°W  0.04°S  0.09°
085 02-22 05:43 35,785 x 35,788      3 +61.26H  55.22D  75.99°W  0.07°S  0.09°
084 02-19 16:28 35,785 x 35,788      3 +13.52H  52.67D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.09°
083 02-19 02:57 35,785 x 35,788      3 +22.27H  52.11D  76.00°W  0.04°S  0.10°
082 02-18 04:41 35,785 x 35,788      3 +24.18H  51.18D  76.00°W  0.06°S  0.10°
081 02-17 04:30 35,785 x 35,788      3 +25.65H  50.17D  76.00°W  0.03°S  0.10°
080 02-16 02:51 35,784 x 35,787      3 +13.98H  49.10D  76.00°W  0.03°S  0.10°
079 02-15 12:53 35,785 x 35,787      2 +21.81H  48.52D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.10°
077 02-14 15:04 35,784 x 35,787      3 +23.65H  47.61D  76.02°W  0.03°S  0.11°
075 02-13 15:25 35,784 x 35,787      3 +36.80H  46.63D  76.02°W  0.04°S  0.10°
072 02-12 02:37 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,784[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,787[/COLOR][/B]      3 +12.07H  45.09D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.11°
071 02-11 14:33 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,719[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,876[/COLOR][/B]    157 +  .35H  44.59D  76.05°W  0.01°N  0.13°
070 02-11 14:12 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,896[/COLOR][/B]    220 +25.23H  44.58D  76.04°W  0.00°N  0.12°
069 02-10 12:58 35,676 x 35,826    150 + 0.00H  43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.14°
068 02-10 12:58 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H  43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°
067 02-10 03:13 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H  43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°
066 02-09 12:18 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 0.00H  42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
065 02-09 12:18 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 5.90H  42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
064 02-09 06:24 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,676[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,898[/COLOR][/B]    222 +20.28H  42.25D  75.90°W  0.09°S  0.12°
063 02-08 10:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,981[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,610[/COLOR][/B]  1,629 + 6.07H  41.41D  75.81°W  0.15°S  0.17°
062 02-08 04:03 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,584[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,081[/COLOR][/B]    497 +20.27H  41.15D  76.12°W  0.04°S  0.13°
061 02-07 07:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H  40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°
060 02-07 05:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H  40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°
059 02-06 15:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H  39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°
058 02-06 04:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H  39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°
057 02-05 04:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H  38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°
056 02-05 04:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H  38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°
055 02-04 01:45 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H  37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°
054 02/03 03:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H  36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°
053 02/02 09:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H  35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°
052 02/02 06:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H  35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°
051 02/02 00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H  34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°
050 02/01 02:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H  34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°
049 01/31 17:11 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H  33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°
048 01/30 16:58 34,419 x 37,149  2,730 +10.15H  32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°
047 01/30 06:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x 37,150  2,741 +16.34H  32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°
046 01/29 14:29 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H  31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°
045 01/28 06:56 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H  30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°
043 01/27 12:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H  29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°
042 01/27 12:00 34,036 x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H  29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°
041 01/27 04:30 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H  29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°
040 01/26 10:35 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H  28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°
039 01/26 06:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H  28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°
038 01/25 05:17 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H  27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°
037 01/24 06:08 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H  26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°
036 01/21 13:22 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H  23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°
035 01/20 17:08 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H  22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°
034 01/18 10:58 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H  20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°
033 01/18 10:58 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H  20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°
032 01/16 15:51 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H  18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°
031 01/16 03:45 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H  18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°
030 01/15 16:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B]  6,257 +53.65H  17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°
029 01/13 11:04 31,494 x 38,917  7,423 +11.08H  15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°
028 01/13 00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31,495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,915[/COLOR][/B]  7,420 + 8.06H  14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S  0.07°
027 01/12 15:56 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 10,503 +46.88H  14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°
026 01/10 17:03 [B][COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 11,545 +44.81H  12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/B]
025 01/08 20:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR][/B] x 41,036 13,655 + 3.37H  10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/B]
024 01/08 16:52 20,336 x 41,007 20,671 + 3.02H  10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°
022 01/08 13:51 20,337 x 41,007 20,670 + 7.27H  10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°
021 01/08 06:34 20,336 x 41,007 20,671 +13.54H  10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°
020 01/07 17:02 20,336 x 41,005 20,669 +31.39H   9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°
019 01/06 09:38 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 20,542 + 4.73H   8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B]
018 01/06 04:54 11,698 x 41,011 29,313 +13.52H   8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°
016 01/05 15:23 11,698 x 41,012 29,314 + 8.57H   7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°
015 01/05 06:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]11,698[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]41,011[/COLOR][/B] 29,313 +71.94H   7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
013 01/02 06:52  5,093 x 38,354 33,261 +26.04H   4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°
012 01/01 04:49  5,097 x 38,352 33,255 + 7.42H   3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°
011 12/31 21:24  5,096 x 38,353 33,257 + 4.14H   2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°
009 12/31 17:16  5,097 x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,363[/COLOR][/B] 33,266 + 1.47H   2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°
007 12/31 15:48  5,090 x 35,736 30,646 +24.25H   2.64D 121.69°E  0.06°N 20.59°
005 12/30 15:33  5,089 x 35,740 30,651 +  .00H   1.63D 126.34°E  0.02°N 20.59°
006 12/30 15:33  5,088 x 35,741 30,653 +21.06H   1.63D 126.28°E  0.00°S 20.59°
004 12/29 18:30  5,087 x 35,793 30,706 +  .17H    .76D 127.27°W 10.81°N 20.55°
003 12/29 18:19  5,084 x 35,795 30,711 +  .80H    .75D 127.13°W 11.56°N 20.57°
002 12/29 17:32  5,087 x 35,793 30,706 + 2.22H    .72D 128.96°W 15.32°N 20.58°
005 12/29 15:18  [B][COLOR="Red"]5,090[/COLOR][/B] x 35,740 30,650 +11.34H    .62D 131.11°E  0.01°S [B][COLOR="Red"]20.58°[/COLOR][/B]
001 12/29 03:58    424 x 35,759 35,335 + 3.61H    .15D  59.29°W  1.05°S 45.52°

*Two Line Element (TLE) Format:*
A NORAD two-line element (TLE) set consists of two 69-character lines of data which describe in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth.

Calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html​*FCC Filing Summary - Just to keep track*At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/18/2010 to 5/18/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/22/2010 to 5/22/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/26/2010 to 5/26/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.​*Boeing DirecTV-10/DirecTV-11/DirecTV-12 Fact Sheet:* http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html​
*DirecTV-12 Time-line and Historical Information can be found in Post#2 below.*


----------



## Sixto

*DirecTV-12 (D12) / RB-2A ("BSS") Satellite:*

D12 Launch Info:
Launch was 12/28/2009 (Monday) at 7:22pm ET - Launch Video
Launch provider was International Launch Services (ILS), via a Proton-M/Briz-M rocket, from Baikonur (same as D10)
Target location is 103° W.L. (102.765°)
ILS Mission Control and Blog Link
ILS Mission Overview Link

D10/D11 Historical Details:
D10 launched 7/7/2007, went "live" 9/26/2007 (81 days), with about a week delay due to spot beam and authorization issues.
D11 launched 3/19/2008, went "live" 7/31/2008 (134 days), with about a 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. D11 got to it's first test location 5/25/2008.
Post#2 in the D11 thread contains the day-by-day history of D11 for comparison purposes. The same regular updates will be posted for D12.
Post#3 in the D11 thread has the comparison of launch-to-location for D10, D11, and SW1.

*DirecTV-12 Historical Timeline:*

02/28/2008: DirecTV Investor Meeting Presentation:"Will launch D12 because the growing importance of HD warrants its use to expand national capacity. Launch expected late 2009. Capacity for more than 200 HD national channels"

Pages 17-18: http://investor.directv.com/common/...c&filename=001_Master_Handout_InvestorDay.pdf​
11/07/2008: DirecTV mention of "Proton" for D12 during an informal session. Also, "2009" mentioned.
01/07/2009: Chase Carey (DirecTV CEO) mentioned during a Citi Conference that D12 will be launched "middle" of 2009.
01/26/2009: "Late September: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur."http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html​
01/28/2009: Launch listed on Boeing website: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/launch_sched.html​
02/26/2009: 2008 DirecTV Annual Report:"With the launch of our DIRECTV 12 satellite later this year, we will gain another 50% increase in our national HD capacity to over 200 channels while offering local HD channels to more than 92% of households."

"DIRECTV 12 is planned for launch in the second half of 2009. DIRECTV 12 will operate from our 101° WL orbital location after successful completion of in-orbit testing."

Note: We've since found the 101° reference to be incorrect.​
08/7/2009, 08/11/2009: FCC Filings:"Construction by Boeing completed by 10/8/2009 with launch between 10/15/2009-11/14/2009"

D12 Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729763​D12 Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173017​D12 Exhibit-B (Request for Partial Waiver of Section 25.210(I) 30 DB Cross-Polarization Requirement):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173015​D12 Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV 12):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014​D12 Schedule-S (updated 8/11/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=730514​RB-2A Application:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729761​RB-2A Exhibit-A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173007​RB-2A Exhibit-B (Waiver Requests):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008​RB-2A Exhibit-C (Application for Authorization to Launch and Operate DirecTV RB-2A):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173006​RB-2A Schedule-S:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173013​
09/7/2009, 09/11/2009: Eutelsat announcement and article, Eutelsat signed with ILS for a "mid-November" W7 satellite launch, with W7 taking D12's earlier slot, with D12 now expected for late-December 2009.
09/10/2009: DirecTV CFO comments that D12 will launch "end" of the year.
10/14/2009: Boeing website shows 2009 Baikonur Launch.
10/21/2009: Anik reports possible delay until January 2010
10/28/2009: Anik reports "beginning of year"
11/05/2009: DirecTV Interim CEO: "our next satellite D12, which becomes operational in the first half of next year. This new satellite will also increase DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50% to over 200 national channels."
11/09/2009: FCC Filing (page-10) for earth Station E090024: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests authority to add the DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch later this year to the 103 WL orbital location, as a Point of Communication."
11/12/2009: Russianspaceweb reports: "Dec. 24 or Dec 29 or beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner). As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely. For a December 2009 launch window, the DirecTV mission conflicted with Proton's federal launch (see above), which was likely to get priority over a commercial payload. At the same time, the DirecTV mission was under pressure to launch before the end of 2009, in order to use an unusual launch azimuth enabling reaching an initial parking orbit with the inclination 48 degrees toward the Equator, agreed with the government of Kazakhstan. Even though different launch pads were available for two missions, the personnel availability would normally require a five-day break between Proton launches."
11/21/2009: Anik reports "end of December" 2009 for launch.
11/23/2009: Anik reports "December 29" for launch.
11/27/2009: Russian Article: "DirecTV-12 spacecraft intended for launch by Proton-M in late Dec. has been delivered to Baikonur today."
11/30/2009: ILS announces the D12 Launch and adds D12 section to their website.
12/01/2009: FCC Filing:"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the DIRECTV 12 satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in−orbit testing for up to 30 days."D12 Test: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395

D12 Drift: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407

Earth Stations: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784432​
12/15/2009 (D12): "Last Action: Grant of Authority"Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Approval Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788267​
12/15/2009 (RB-2A): "Last Action: Granted in Part/ Deferred in Part"Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Approval Details:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788263

Ciel Conflict Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788265​
12/16/2009 (RB-2A): FCC Letter:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788368​
12/17/2009 (RB-2A): FCC Testing Details:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788727​
12/24/2009: Video of D12 leaving facility:




12/25/2009: Pictures/Video of D12 movement and positioning at Launchpad:http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8729






12/28/2009: We have liftoff!




01/21/2010: FCC Grant for D12 RB-2A (BSS) for testing at 76°:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795772

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795770​
02/02/2010: FCC Grant for D12 Ka testing at 76°:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799125

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=799538​
02/11/2010: D12 Testing Status at 76°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841​
03/08/2010: FCC Grant for D12 Drift to 103°: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​
03/08/2010: FCC Grant for Earth Station Communication to D12 during the Drift: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784447

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805004​
03/19/2010: FCC Grants for Extension of D12 Testing at 76° (3/19/2010-4/19/2010): D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806512

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806525

Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806526​
03/31/2010: DirecTV Requests for STA Extension for D12 Drift: D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808653

Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808649

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808651​
04/14/2010: FCC Grant for Earth Station Communication to D12 during the Drift (4/7/2010-5/7/2010): Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810713

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810712​
04/15/2010: DirecTV Requests for STA Extension for D12 Testing at 76°: D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926

Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810925

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810924​
04/22/2010: FCC Grant for Earth Station Communication at 76° (4/22/2010-5/22/2010): Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812376

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812375​
04/23/2010: FCC Grant for D12 Testing at 76° (4/18/2010-5/18/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812496​
04/23/2010: FCC Grant for D12 Drift to 103° (4/26/2010-5/26/2010): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812524​
05/13/2010: Notice to FCC of Commercial Operations:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=816778​
05/17/2010: Boeing Hand-off to DirecTV:http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1208​
*DirecTV-12 after Liftoff*

*Time*
|
*Launch Event*
|
*Status*

|
07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison|
*Complete*

|
11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
04:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
04:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
4:32:00am ET|D12 Separation|
*Complete*

|
*Launch Photos:*Placeholder​*D10/D11/D12 Comparison:*

Target was Low of 35,786, High of 35,786, Gap of 0. Graphs are from *DodgerKing*:

























































Code:


[B]
	D10	D10	D10	D11	D11	D11	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U][/B]
1	414	35813	35399	268	36474	36206	5087	35793	30706
2	4919	35792	30873				5089	35740	30651
3	4921	36526	31605				5097	38352	33255
4	4923	37127	32204				5093	38354	33261
5				463	38996	38533			
6	8277	37105	28828						
7	17992	37082	19090	468	40744	40276	11698	41011	29313
8	17994	37083	19089	7392	40992	33600	20536	41078	20542
9				7386	40989	33603			
10	31290	37120	5830	7387	40988	33601	20336	41007	20671
11	34206	37119	2913				27381	41036	13655
12	34100	37245	3145	17362	41069	23707			
13	34099	37129	3030	17361	41067	23706	29492	41037	11545
14	34088	37109	3021						
15	34085	37109	3024				31494	38917	7423
16	34088	37104	3016	29624	41227	11603			
17	34123	37099	2976	29621	41228	11607			
18	34179	37102	2923	29621	41228	11607	32651	38908	6257
19	34239	37050	2811	29622	41228	11606	32652	38907	6255
20				29622	41228	11606	32727	38854	6127
21	34449	37082	2633	29723	41211	11488			
22				29864	41198	11334			
23				29861	41195	11334	33008	38510	5502
24	34759	36906	2147	30007	41174	11167	33114	38484	5370
25				30244	41142	10898			
26	35111	36572	1461	30245	41133	10888	33259	38365	5106
27				30507	41115	10608	33366	38229	4863
28				30531	41110	10579	33920	37699	3779
29	34923	36787	1864	30615	41065	10450	33948	37410	3462
30	                 				34196	37445	3249
31	35603	36177	574	30883	40871	9988
32	35644	36057	413	31115	40623	9508	34409	37150	2741
33	35630	36051	421	31309	40411	9102	34419	37149	2730
34	35663	35964	301	31369	40366	8997	34450	37155	2705
35	35740	35919	179				34715	36952	2237
36	35737	35864	127	31742	39996	8254	34739	36886	2147
37	35739	35876	137	31866	39844	7978	35004	36635	1631
38	35742	35809	67				35030	36564	1534
39							35344	36351	1007
40	35784	35789	5	32302	39428	7126	35484	36200	716
41	35784	35787	3	32285	39398	7113	35584	36081	497
42				32732	39025	6293	35676	35898	222
43				32732	38987	6255	35677	35898	221
44							35676	35826	150
45				32976	38782	5806	35784	35787	3
46						
47				33440	38444	5004
48				33458	38289	4831
49				33759	38125	4366
50				33724	38069	4345
51				33988	37798	3810
52						
53				34111	37722	3611
54				34365	37443	3078
55						
56				34423	37211	2788
57				34610	37078	2468
58				34888	36903	2015
59						
60						
61				35352	36444	1092
62				35350	36345	995
63				35496	36217	721
64				35600	36052	452
65				35739	35884	145
66				35747	35804	57
67				35786	35792	6
68						
69				35785	35789	4
70				35786	35788	2

*DirecTV-12 Orbit - Pictorial View - from Doctor J):*
In layman's terms, the target was for the D12 orbit to look like the D10 orbit.
D-10 is White
D-12 #1 is Red, D-12 #2 is Orange, D-12 #8 is Yellow, D-12 #14 is Purple, D-12 #19 is Blue, D-12 #25 is Green
















​*Contributors to the information in Post#1 and Post#2:* *Sixto, LameLefty, Anik, Doctor J, DodgerKing, rrrick8 (countdown clock)*


----------



## Paul A

Oh Boy, I can't wait!!!

Thanks Sixto for all that you do!!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV will be the first to launch a full BSS package in the US! 

DIRECTV filings for DIRECTV 12 _and_ RB-2A have been received by the FCC (along with payments for both). DIRECTV 12 has been modified to serve as a hybrid satellite for both duties, Ka and BSS!

DIRECTV12 is call sign S2797, RB-2A is S2796. (Same hybrid satellite.) (Thanks Lamelefty for the correction).
*DIRECTV 12 Links*
DIRECTV 12 Launch and operate filing record
Launch and Operate Authority Letter

*RB-2A Links*
RB-2A Launch and operate filing record
Launch and Operate Authority Letter

Launch window is expected between October 15 and November 14. Full operation by January 31.

I'm sure as I dig thru these documents I'll understand and be able to report on more. (As will Sixto, Lamelefty, and many of you. Thanks!)

Cheers,
Tom

Edit:
My bad! And boy, what a huge mess I made of Sixto's work. Sixto has already reported all of this last month! How late I am to the party. (And how did I miss it!?) Anyway, this deserves a new thread so Sixto, bless his soul, will continue to take care of the updates. I've copied all of Sixto's information appropriately to the top of this thread--he deserves all the credit for his most excellent work!

My sincere, public apologies to Sixto for the mess I made. Thank you for being gracious enough to accept.

Tom


----------



## RobertE

Woah. :eek2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Dude! 

Very Cool! 

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

Can I vote that we still name this the Sixto Report? 

Now ... probably discussed in the other thread, but what is the significance of this being the first BSS satellite in the U.S.? 

What is the significance to current customers? Future customers? 

Can someone "nutshell" it for the less technical among us?

Many thanks, in advance.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Drew2k said:


> Can I vote that we still name this the Sixto Report?
> 
> Now ... probably discussed in the other thread, but what is the significance of this being the first BSS satellite in the U.S.?
> 
> What is the significance to current customers? Future customers?
> 
> Can someone "nutshell" it for the less technical among us?
> 
> Many thanks, in advance.


Yes, absolutely. I'm working with Sixto to fix my horrible mistake. As soon as he signs off on the plan, he'll definitely get all the credit he deserves and my hope is he'll continue to take most excellent care of his baby.

Cheers,
Tom

Edit: Thread has been restored to Sixto, with appropriate title and ownership. Thanks for you patience with my mistake.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Drew2k said:


> Can I vote that we still name this the Sixto Report?
> 
> Now ... probably discussed in the other thread, but what is the significance of this being the first BSS satellite in the U.S.?
> 
> What is the significance to current customers? Future customers?
> 
> Can someone "nutshell" it for the less technical among us?
> 
> Many thanks, in advance.


To me the huge, major coolness, was DIRECTV has full BSS satellite already to launch. We all thought it would be years before anyone would be able to take advantage of the newly allocated bandwidth. Normally it takes 2-4 years to plan, build, and launch a satellite after a license has been granted. Now DIRECTV will do it in a few months--by strategic planning ahead of time. Wow! 

What else does this mean? The BSS satellite range is another 400Mhz of bandwidth at a location that DIRECTV already has 1Ghz of bandwidth. Future LNBs would be easy to produce that could take advantage of this bandwidth without a compete dish redesign. Getting all the angles right on a dish for a new satellite location--on a dish to be used anywhere in the US--is major, major engineering. So this is very, very cool.

What will DIRECTV do with that bandwidth? That part I don't know--yet. I'm still digging thru the documents I missed last month. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks Tom! Keep us in the loop, and thanks to you, Sixto, LameLefty and the others who spend countless hours reading what is likely very dry material to find nuggets of useful information. Thanks also for making that information accessible to the non-rocket-scientists in the crowd. :up:


----------



## Sixto

All back to normal! 

Have updated post#1 with the Eutelsat W7 announcement from Monday, which fuels the possible speculation that D12 is after W7. It all depends on whether they'll be two launches within 60 days, or just D12 after W7.

2008/2009 Proton-M/Briz-M launches and possible D12 scenario:


Code:


01/28/2008
02/11/2008  +14
03/14/2008  +32
08/18/2008 
09/19/2008  +32
11/05/2008  +47
12/10/2008  +35
02/11/2009  +62
04/03/2009  +51
05/16/2009  +43
06/30/2009  +45
08/11/2009  +42
09/17/2009  +38 (Nimiq 5 scheduled)
10/17/2009? +30 (D12)
11/16/2009? +30 (W7 "mid-November")


----------



## machavez00

ok, can some explain the difference?


----------



## Tom Robertson

machavez00 said:


> ok, can some explain the difference?


C-band was the first satellite group of frequencies allocated for use. Not meant for direct to home, but as Big Ugly Dishes (BUD) became popular, so did the concept of satellite receivers in the home.

Ku-bands of frequencies were allocated prompting the start of the Direct To Home (DTH) companies: Pegasus, Dish, our favorite DIRECTV, and others. For a long time, this was just enough bandwidth for most cable channels for most of the companies--but HD was coming. 

Ka-bands--So the Ka bands of frequencies were envisioned for extra bandwidth to give companies the bandwidth for National HD channels _and very importantly_ for locals channels.

Even the Ka isn't enough. The International regulatory agency, ITU, changed some allocations of the radio bands, allowing a new concept--BSS bands that let satellite signals sent back to the home on the SAME frequencies the Ku satellites use for Earth to the satellites. With careful coordination, the signals don't interfere with each other. So these are the new frequencies that were just assigned by the FCC for use.

They aren't so much different as more. Woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

machavez00 said:


> ok, can some explain the difference?


BSS is a new frequency range (17300-17700 MHz) that will enable more bandwidth within an existing slot (103°).

Will now have "Ka-Lo" (18300-18800 MHz), "Ka-Hi" (19700-20200 MHz), and "BSS" (17300-17700 MHz) ... all within the same slot.


----------



## cforrest

Am I reading the RB-2A document correct? 4 Spot beams on the BSS side aboard D12 will be aimed at the Western US with Alaska, maybe Hawaii, in the mix. Doesn't appear to be any CONUS or East Coast transmission from them planned.


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> Am I reading the RB-2A document correct? 4 Spot beams on the BSS side aboard D12 will be aimed at the Western US with Alaska, maybe Hawaii, in the mix. Doesn't appear to be any CONUS or East Coast transmission from them planned.


Correct. It's the first "test" of BSS.


----------



## cforrest

Sixto said:


> Correct. It's the first "test" of BSS.


Thanks, I guess it would help if I read your summary, since you clearly posted it. :lol: Keep it up the good work, much appreciated.


----------



## bobnielsen

Hmm, maybe I'll have to find a suitable LNB for the BSS band to hook up to my original 18 in dish that I kept "just in case". I suspect more details will become available before too long, but I suspect they already have a scheme in mind (flex ports?)


----------



## kevinturcotte

How does BSS differ from what they currently use? I doubt it, but would this require an LNB swap-out? How many TOTAL HD local channels will this bird be able to carry?


----------



## Sixto

kturcotte said:


> How does BSS differ from what they currently use? I doubt it, but would this require an LNB swap-out? How many TOTAL HD local channels will this bird be able to carry?


BSS is just a new frequency range (17300-17700 MHz) that will enable more bandwidth within an existing slot.

It's not expected that the current LNB(s) will be able to receive 17.3-17.7GHz, but this is somewhat an experimental payload, with BSS being fully exploited in the future (2-3 years).

We're not yet fully aware of the net new numbers for LiL. The documents reference in-orbit redundancy or replacement for the spot beam capability of D10. D10 has known issues with it's spots, but not yet fully clear how D10 and D12 LiL will be balanced.

Post-1 contains the "summary", with links to the details.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Construction by Boeing expected to be completed by October 8th, 2009
> Launch expected between 10/15/2009-11/14/2009 (per Schedule-S from 8/7/2009)



Since nobody has made note of the painfully obvious, I guess I'll step up:

They can't launch on October 15th if Boeing releases the satellite on the 8th.

We are told that it takes about 30 days from the time the bird arrives at Baikonur to when it might be launched (weather and scheduling permitting). Travel time to Kazakhstan would appear to be five days (Protostar II interval).

Some background on the last three Proton M/Briz M launches:

AsiaSat 5 (SS/L 1300 bus) took 29 days from landing to launch.

Sirius FM-5 (SS/L 1300 bus) took about 33 days from landing to launch.

Protostar II (Boeing 601HP) took 26 days from landing to launch.

It took Protostar II five days from the Boeing shipment announcement to the landing in Kazakhstan. Working forward, DIRECTV 12 looks to be headed for a November 15th launch (plus or minus a few days). This puts D12 on an almost identical schedule W7 and that cannot happen.

NOTE: This is all built on the idea that the bird leaves Boeing on (or very shortly after) October 8th. It would seem that the only way to make an October 15th launch is if DIRECTV 12 ships this week and they fast track everything.

Finally, I think it is important to recognize that the recent history for launch intervals averages out at 41.75 days between launches. The quickest was the most recent at 37 days.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> Since nobody has made note of the painfully obvious, I guess I'll step up:
> 
> They can't launch on October 15th if Boeing releases the satellite on the 8th.
> 
> We are told that it takes about 30 days from the time the bird arrives at Baikonur to when it might be launched (weather and scheduling permitting). Travel time to Kazakhstan would appear to be five days (Protostar II interval).
> 
> Some background on the last three Proton M/Briz M launches:
> 
> AsiaSat 5 (SS/L 1300 bus) took 29 days from landing to launch.
> 
> Sirius FM-5 (SS/L 1300 bus) took about 33 days from landing to launch.
> 
> Protostar II (Boeing 601HP) took 26 days from landing to launch.
> 
> It took Protostar II five days from the Boeing shipment announcement to the landing in Kazakhstan. Working forward, DIRECTV 12 looks to be headed for a November 15th launch (plus or minus a few days). This puts D12 on an almost identical schedule W7 and that cannot happen.
> 
> NOTE: This is all built on the idea that the bird leaves Boeing on (or very shortly after) October 8th. It would seem that the only way to make an October 15th launch is if DIRECTV 12 ships this week and they fast track everything.
> 
> Finally, I think it is important to recognize that the recent history for launch intervals averages out at 41.75 days between launches. The quickest was the most recent at 37 days.


While what you have espoused here is accurate enough, there is nothing stopping them from getting D12 there within 24 hours and launching within a week. It comes down to the amount of risk Boeing and DirecTV are willing to endure. The real test is in the pudding as they say and we'll see _soon_ enough as it all unfolds.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> I'm just getting a vibe that it may be after W7, but we'll see, especially if some $ changed hands to get W7 to the head of the line.





Sixto said:


> Have updated post#1 with the Eutelsat W7 announcement from Monday, which fuels the possible speculation that D12 is after W7.





harsh said:


> Since nobody has made note of the painfully obvious, I guess I'll step up:


Yes, exactly why the prior launch info was posted yesterday, the W7 info was added to the summary, and posted that it's seems more likely that the launch will be after W7, but anything is possible with the right focus and $ (and change to the previous D12 schedule).


----------



## slimoli

Sorry for the non-technical question:

If have a Slimline 5 dish , would it need any LNB upgrade to receive the new channels when the D12 is up and running ? I live in a condo with a MDU MFH2 system . Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Sorry for the non-technical question:
> 
> If have a Slimline 5 dish , would it need any LNB upgrade to receive the new channels when the D12 is up and running ? I live in a condo with a MDU MFH2 system . Thanks.


All non-technical questions welcome! 

If you can receive the current MPEG4 HD Channels, then you should be fine with D12.

D12 (non RB-2A) will be utilizing existing frequencies previously allocated and used by DirecTV-10 (D10) and Spaceway-1 (SW1).


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> While what you have espoused here is accurate enough, there is nothing stopping them from getting D12 there within 24 hours and launching within a week.


The preparation schedule takes about 30 days. Testing of the satellite itself takes a week. Putting the satellite in the faring takes a day. Fueling of the satellite takes a day or two. Mating all of the booster sections takes a few days. Fueling the launch vehicles takes time.

At every step, there is exhaustive testing to make sure that everything is "nominal" before they move to the next step. ILS can't afford to be spilling any more heptyl rocket fuel downrange.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> The preparation schedule takes about 30 days. Testing of the satellite itself takes a week. Putting the satellite in the faring takes a day. Fueling of the satellite takes a day or two. Mating all of the booster sections takes a few days. Fueling the launch vehicles takes time.
> 
> At every step, there is exhaustive testing to make sure that everything is "nominal" before they move to the next step. ILS can't afford to be spilling any more heptyl rocket fuel downrange.


It seems that either the D12 schedule from the Schedule-S filing has changed (to earlier), or W7 has now moved ahead of D12 through the new arrangement announced Monday.

Would expect that we'll know within the next few weeks, especially after Nimiq 5 launches (and the next launch is documented by ILS).

I continue to feel that D12 may now be after W7, but anything is possible since we only have access to non-regular filings and press releases.

It's been a fun ride, and we'll get there ...


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> The preparation schedule takes about 30 days. Testing of the satellite itself takes a week. Putting the satellite in the faring takes a day. Fueling of the satellite takes a day or two. Mating all of the booster sections takes a few days. Fueling the launch vehicles takes time.


Nice to see you've boned up a bit on spacecraft launch operations in the last couple years. Hopefully no more of those embarrassing gaffes from the past, eh? Let's see how you do with the orbital mechanics and spacecraft checkout posts when you tell us, post-launch, how there's no way D12 can be ready and broadcasting in whatever timeframe people are talking about. 



> At every step, there is exhaustive testing to make sure that everything is "nominal" before they move to the next step. ILS can't afford to be spilling any more heptyl rocket fuel downrange.


There have been launch failures before and there will be launch failures again. I guess you, as a DISH customer, must know that already, right? That's part of the reason they call it "rocket science" and that responsible satellite owners purchase launch insurance.


----------



## MIAMI1683

LameLefty said:


> Nice to see you've boned up a bit on spacecraft launch operations in the last couple years. Hopefully no more of those embarrassing gaffes from the past, eh? Let's see how you do with the orbital mechanics and spacecraft checkout posts when you tell us, post-launch, how there's no way D12 can be ready and broadcasting in whatever timeframe people are talking about.
> 
> There have been launch failures before and there will be launch failures again. I guess you, as a DISH customer, must know that already, right? That's part of the reason they call it "rocket science" and that responsible satellite owners purchase launch insurance.


 WOW Lefty.....what was the last satellite for a Satellite company failure? I can't remember that


----------



## Sixto

Will be interesting to see if the CFO makes a reference to October, December, Q4, later this year, or no D12 reference ... when speaking at Conference (today at 4:35pm ET).


----------



## Bob Coxner

MIAMI1683 said:


> WOW Lefty.....what was the last satellite for a Satellite company failure? I can't remember that


Your memory must be short-term. It was March 2008.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Dis...urts-HD-rollout-TiVo-suit-reopened/1205859135


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Nice to see you've boned up a bit on spacecraft launch operations in the last couple years. Hopefully no more of those embarrassing gaffes from the past, eh? Let's see how you do with the orbital mechanics and spacecraft checkout posts when you tell us, post-launch, how there's no way D12 can be ready and broadcasting in whatever timeframe people are talking about.


Do the calculations using whatever math, knowledge and experience you can bring to bear and tell us what you come up with. Disparaging my estimates with nebulous claims about uncited past "gaffes" isn't adding significantly to the information about D12 and it isn't proving that what I'm offering is disinformation.

It doesn't really matter what financial or FCC documents DIRECTV files. Boeing has their schedules to keep and ILS has theirs. My analysis is based on the most recent historical data as opposed to projections by a third party to the launch (DIRECTV) and a group of people here at DBSTalk that seem to be perfectly happy dumping on me while offering precious little authoritative evidence of why they believe what they believe.

Where did this launch failure stuff enter into the discussion?

I'd be more than happy to see why you're prognostications should be considered any more authoritative than mine or anyone else's. I'm still waiting to see one of those 1-2 week launch intervals (as applied to a DIRECTV satellite) that I've often heard applied to launch predictions here.


----------



## LameLefty

MIAMI1683 said:


> WOW Lefty.....what was the last satellite for a Satellite company failure? I can't remember that


The Indonesian satellite Palapa D was placed into an unusable/incorrect orbit 10 days ago due to a problem with the Chinese Long March 3B booster.

AMC 14 was placed in the incorrect orbit in March 2008 after an issue with the Briz-M upper stage of the Proton booster. JCSAT 11 in September 2007 and ARABSAT 4A in February 2006 also both suffered issues with their Proton and/or Briz upper stages. And of course SeaLaunch suffered that dramatic conflagration during the launch attempt for NSS-8 in January 2007.


----------



## LameLefty

Bob Coxner said:


> Your memory must be short-term. It was March 2008.
> 
> http://www.betanews.com/article/Dis...urts-HD-rollout-TiVo-suit-reopened/1205859135


More recent than that. A Chinese Long March 3B failed 10 days ago.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> I'd be more than happy to see why you're prognostications should be considered any more authoritative than mine or anyone else's. I'm still waiting to see one of those 1-2 week launch intervals (as applied to a DIRECTV satellite) that I've often heard applied to launch predictions here.


First, many of us have a much greater appreciation of the technical, regulatory and/or financial issues involved. We have engineers, financial people, and people experienced with bureaucracies and how to search the filing systems for relevant documents, all posting facts and supposition based on ACTUAL FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE AND EDUCATION rather than ... whatever it is you call your own posts.

Second, you have a very well-established track record at DBSTalk of posting unsubstantiated or partially-correct information in a strongly negative manner repeatedly in Directv-oriented threads, despite rarely (if ever) admitting that you are not a subscriber nor (apparently) have you ever been. When your negativity is proven incorrect (and your memorably-wrong D10-related posts were there for all and sundry to see and at least some of them remain for anyone who wishes to use the excellent search functions here), you rarely if ever admit it, instead resorting to semantics games or simply refusing to acknowledge the inaccuracy. Many call that trolling.

I think that adequately sums it up.


----------



## elaclair

MIAMI1683 said:


> WOW Lefty.....what was the last satellite for a Satellite company failure? I can't remember that


All the failures mentioned so far have been launch vehicle failures. I'm pretty sure Miami was asking when the last _satellite_ failure occured....


----------



## LameLefty

elaclair said:


> All the failures mentioned so far have been launch vehicle failures. I'm pretty sure Miami was asking when the last _satellite_ failure occured....


Satellites and spacecraft fail all the time.

Astra-5A (formerly Sirius 2) suffered a failure and was moved to graveyard orbit in early 2009, several years prior the end of its planned 15 year life expectancy.

At the other end of the life expectancy scale, Rascom-QAF 1 failed in late December 2007, very soon after launch. A leak in the propulsion pressurization system cut the useful operating life of the satellite from 15 years to around 2 years. In fact, Eutelsat W2M failed completely around early 2009, preventing it from going into operation at all.


----------



## Sixto

The Eutelsat press release is our most current information (from Monday).

It certainly paints a picture that Eutelsat has an *urgent* need to get their W7 satellite into orbit and functional by year-end. Speculation: this may have incented Eutelsat to provide $ to move to the front of the line."The decision to launch with ILS and Khrunichev was taken on the basis of their commitment to meeting Eutelsat's critical timeframe to launch W7 in mid-November, enabling Eutelsat to bring the satellite into service by the end of 2009"​
It also is always possible that the dates documented in the D12 FCC filing from 8/7/2009 can change. Either earlier or later.

The FCC also has not yet officially approved the D12 filing, and there has not been any formal ILS announcement.

Considering the Eutelsat press release as fact, either D12 is shipping *very* soon to meet a mid-October launch, or W7 will go early/mid November, and D12 goes up in December.

And again, maybe the DirecTV CFO will comment this afternoon at the conference.


----------



## HoTat2

bobnielsen said:


> Hmm, maybe I'll have to find a suitable LNB for the BSS band to hook up to my original 18 in dish that I kept "just in case". I suspect more details will become available before too long, *but I suspect they already have a scheme in mind (flex ports?)*


Yep;

I'll probably keep my old Phase I dish up for now as well just in case . Since I don't see how it is possible for the reverse band (RB-2A and it's successors) signals to fit into the current LNB frequency stack plan of 250-2150 Mhz (with two 200 Mhz guard bands).

Therefore unless it is to be a completely new line of BSS capable receiving equipment, all I can see at this point for integration of BSS into current installs, should this be the plan, is some kind of second dish arrangement (possibly a Phase I with a new LNB) and a firmware update to repurpose the flexports. Of which you will need to use both the former 72.5 and 95 degree ports from a duel LNB to serve multiple receiver residences since you have RHCP and LHCP transponder sets.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV12 is call sign S2796, RB-2A is S2797. (Same hybrid satellite.)


One minor correction to Tom's post (which only matters to true satellite geeks) is that the callsigns above are reversed. D12 is S2797, RB-2A is S2796.

Here's a "cheat sheet" of sorts for the FCC callsigns for the Directv satellite constellation, the best I can figure. Some satellites have multiple callsigns like D12/RB-2A will have, mostly due to the use of Ka band backhaul payloads and such:



Code:


FCC Call Sign	Satellite Common Name & Notes
S2430		Directv 4S
S2629		Directv 3
S2630		Directv 2
S2657, S2627	Directv 1
S2369		Directv 1R
S2455		Directv 7S
S2673, S2417	Directv 5
S2628, S2656	Directv 6
S2632		Directv 8 DBS
S2132 		Directv 8 Ka
S2669		Directv 9S DBS
S2689 		Directv 9S Ka
S2133 		Spaceway 2
S2191 		Spaceway 1
S2640 		Directv 11
S2641 		Directv 10
S2796		Directv 12/RB-2A (BSS)
S2797		Directv 12/RB-2A (Ka)

S2693		Directv 13  (intended for 110W; authorization has been surrendered)
S2711		RB-1 (a/k/a Directv BSS-99W)
S2712		RB-2 (a/k/a Directv BSS-103W)
S2242		RB-3 (apparently intended for 107W)
S2243		RB-4 (originally intended for 101W, now 110W)
S2244		RB-5 (intended for 119W; authorization surrendered)
S2788		Directv 97W (FSS band)


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> One minor correction to Tom's post (which only matters to true satellite geeks) is that the callsigns above are reversed. D12 is S2797, RB-2A is S2796.
> 
> Here's a "cheat sheet" of sorts for the FCC callsigns for the Directv satellite constellation, the best I can figure. Some satellites have multiple callsigns like D12/RB-2A will have, mostly due to the use of Ka band backhaul payloads and such:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> FCC Call Sign	Satellite Common Name & Notes
> S2430		Directv 4S
> S2629		Directv 3
> S2630		Directv 2
> S2657, S2627	Directv 1
> S2369		Directv 1R
> S2455		Directv 7S
> S2673, S2417	Directv 5
> S2628, S2656	Directv 6
> S2632		Directv 8 DBS
> S2132 		Directv 8 Ka
> S2669		Directv 9S DBS
> S2689 		Directv 9S Ka
> S2133 		Spaceway 2
> S2191 		Spaceway 1
> S2640 		Directv 11
> S2641 		Directv 10
> S2796		Directv 12/RB-2A (BSS)
> S2797		Directv 12/RB-2A (Ka)
> 
> S2693		Directv 13  (intended for 110W; authorization has been surrendered)
> S2711		RB-1 (a/k/a Directv BSS-99W)
> S2712		RB-2 (a/k/a Directv BSS-103W)
> S2242		RB-3 (apparently intended for 107W)
> S2243		RB-4 (originally intended for 101W, now 110W)
> S2244		RB-5 (intended for 119W; authorization surrendered)
> S2788		Directv 97W (FSS band)


Thanks, Herb. I've corrected my post.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> [*]D12 RB-2A:
> 
> Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
> 18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 103°
> Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
> Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range, with a new LNB expected/required
> "This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".


My guess is that this will be used for back-hauling signals. 18 Tps but only 4 spot beams means multiple transponders per spot beam. That really doesn't make a lot of sense if you are using it for providing locals but makes a lot of sense for back-hauling locals from 1 location to another for up-linking. DirecTV has also done this in the past. D8 and D9 both got Ka spots added on for back-hauling signals using the Ka band at 101. Spaceway 1 and 2 also had some fixed spots added on that I assume were used for back-hauling in the Ka Lo band before D10/D11 were launched. DirecTV does also have several uplink facilities in the Western US.

Also all indications are the current hardware/software is not currently able to receive these signals which would make using them for locals difficult. The most likely method they could accomplish currently to handle these signals would be using an extra dish and both flex ports to add in the signal and then select it with DiSEqC like it does with the 72.5 locals and international dish. Both flex ports would be needed to get both odd and even tps into the switch. The 72.5 or international dishes only use 1 polarity so 1 cable works. This would require an additional multi-switch for all installations and would require a SWM8 for a SWM installation which to date hasn't been used in home installs. It would also make it impossible to receive the international channels and locals in one of these markets. This all means a large expense and time investment to be able to uses this for locals.

Using it for back-hauling makes sense. It is something they need to do anyway. It gets it in use quickly so there is no risk of loosing their license for failure to meet deadlines. It can be changed around on the back end with out affecting end users at all to make it available to use for other things in the future. I wouldn't be surprised to see BSS from 99/103 used in the future but more along the lines of the several years time line that was initially predicted for BSS not this last minute addition.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> My guess is that this will be used for back-hauling signals.
> 
> (snipped)
> 
> Using it for back-hauling makes sense. It is something they need to do anyway. It gets it in use quickly so there is no risk of loosing their license for failure to meet deadlines.


Actually, much as I hate to (since you're usually spot-on) I don't think you're right about this. First off, the BSS license for this location is specifically for direct-to-home service of signals. Backhauls are covered by other licenses and authorizations and, in fact, the BSS chunk of the Ku spectrum IS what has been used for backhauling. I think the licenses are exactly what they appear to be: the four spots will be aimed into specific test markets which will start getting specialized SWM LNBs or equivalent hardware to utilize the signals.

I think the national BSS transponders will be used for more specialized or international programming at first, people for whom Directv can charge extra to justify the installation or retrofit of new LNBs or SWM modules to use with the new non mainstream-type content until BSS capabilities get worked into the mainstream hardware.

But that's just my take based on the FCC licenses. Time of course will tell.


----------



## dreadlk

Great report Sixto. I can see that you spent a lot of time getting all the Details.
Very Impressive, Thanks.


----------



## harsh

Perhaps BSS offers a larger spotbeam that would be beneficial in the West Coast markets where the DMAs are few and far between.


----------



## Sixto

Chart-13 from today's presentation: "50% increase in HD capacity with new D12 satellite. 130 national HD channel capacity increasing to 200".http://investor.directv.com/common/...e=DIRECTV Bofa Merrill Lynch Presentation.pdf​And we know D12 has capacity for 80.


----------



## Sixto

CFO words (few minutes ago) were "launch end of this year. operational next year.". Will go back later to double-check the exact wording once the replay is available.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> CFO words (few minutes ago) were "launch end of this year. operational next year.". Will go back later to double-check the exact wording once the replay is available.


That does give credence to the notion that Eutelsat's need (plus perhaps the generous sprinkling of Euros to ILS, Directv or both) might bump D12 to December. Eutelsat's last satellite failed 10 months ago before it ever became operational.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> That does give credence to the notion that Eutelsat's need (plus perhaps the generous sprinkling of Euros to ILS, Directv or both) might bump D12 to December. Eutelsat's last satellite failed 10 months ago before it ever became operational.


Yep, I'll re-listen when the replay is available, but it certainly seemed like he said "end".


----------



## tvjay

Tom Robertson said:


> The International regulatory agency, ITU, changed some allocations of the radio bands, allowing a new concept--BSS bands that let satellite signals sent back to the home on the SAME frequencies the Ku satellites use for Earth to the satellites. With careful coordination, the signals don't interfere with each other. So these are the new frequencies that were just assigned by the FCC for use.


Most KU feeds (offten used for professional broadcasters) are done within the 11.2 - 14.5 GHz range. Who uses the 17.3-17.7 GHz besides DirecTV?


----------



## dreadlk

As stated before BSS is just a different frequency Band allocation.

From what I am reading it would seem that almost all Directv customers will NOT need to upgrade their Dish, the BSS signals will probably be used only for Network transmissions to certain remote locations, and since it's Spot beam you most likely would not pick it up in many locations anyway.

If you think about it, there is very little chance that D* is going to want to upgrade millions of HD Dish installations just to receive a few new channels, so they would probably strictly use this for Locals in fringe areas.



kturcotte said:


> How does BSS differ from what they currently use? I doubt it, but would this require an LNB swap-out? How many TOTAL HD local channels will this bird be able to carry?


----------



## LameLefty

dreadlk said:


> From what I am reading it would seem that almost all Directv customers will NOT need to upgrade their Dish, *the BSS signals will probably be used only for Network transmissions to certain remote locations*, and since it's Spot beam you most likely would not pick it up in many locations anyway.


As I pointed out to evan_s, that's not what their FCC license allows them to do.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tvjay said:


> Most KU feeds (offten used for professional broadcasters) are done within the 11.2 - 14.5 GHz range. Who uses the 17.3-17.7 GHz besides DirecTV?


As of today, no one. The new band allocations were just awarded a few months ago by the FCC. Dish and DIRECTV both were awarded several slots, along with others.

DIRECTV took the somewhat risky approach to prepare D12 with a BSS package before the awards had been finalized. Looks like a great payoff as DIRECTV will be first to have a BSS package in space, likely years before anyone else. 

(Also saves on the performance bond paid to the government--DIRECTV will get that back immediately for this slot.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tubaman-Z

Sixto said:


> Chart-13 from today's presentation: "50% increase in HD capacity with new D12 satellite. 130 national HD channel capacity increasing to 200".http://investor.directv.com/common/...e=DIRECTV Bofa Merrill Lynch Presentation.pdf​And we know D12 has capacity for 80.


<off topic>Slide 7 is interesting. Admittedly I've been a D* customer since 1995 and have lost a lot of brain cells since then - but did I really give them the authorization to run a credit report on me (or...would I have to do so now as a new customer)? Perhaps there is something implicit in the contract that allows this. Just seems....odd. This can be viewed as rhetorical or redirected to a more appropriate thread as-needed. </off topic>


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> Actually, much as I hate to (since you're usually spot-on) I don't think you're right about this. First off, the BSS license for this location is specifically for direct-to-home service of signals. Backhauls are covered by other licenses and authorizations and, in fact, the BSS chunk of the Ku spectrum IS what has been used for backhauling. I think the licenses are exactly what they appear to be: the four spots will be aimed into specific test markets which will start getting specialized SWM LNBs or equivalent hardware to utilize the signals.
> 
> I think the national BSS transponders will be used for more specialized or international programming at first, people for whom Directv can charge extra to justify the installation or retrofit of new LNBs or SWM modules to use with the new non mainstream-type content until BSS capabilities get worked into the mainstream hardware.
> 
> But that's just my take based on the FCC licenses. Time of course will tell.


I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the FCC filings side of things or the licensing stuff but as I said DirecTV does have a history of using the same frequencies for back-hauling that they are using for the direct to home service.

D8 and D9 are still in use using the Ka Hi and Lo bands for back hauling currently and the Spaceway sats had spots to use Ka Lo for back hauling before D10 and D11 were launched. The FCC sure does not seem to have stopped them from doing it in these cases. See posts 2 3 and 4 in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 for details.


----------



## Sixto

The Spectrum Five battle continues (today's filing):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=738514​
Which is in response to:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=735772​


----------



## Sixto

And another little nugget as all the BSS players work together to share the BSS slots:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=729821​Thinking this might allude to them finding a way to trade bandwidth.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> D8 and D9 are still in use using the Ka Hi and Lo bands for back hauling currently and the Spaceway sats had spots to use Ka Lo for back hauling before D10 and D11 were launched. The FCC sure does not seem to have stopped them from doing it in these cases. See posts 2 3 and 4 in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 for details.


D8 and D9 have separate FCC authorizations (and separate space station callsigns) for those Ka band payloads. See my post earlier in the thread.


----------



## LameLefty

Some interesting bits here on page 2 regarding Directv's future plans:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-2036A1.pdf

EDITED TO ADD:

Looks like this is in response to Sixto's earlier nugget:



> And another little nugget as all the BSS players work together to share the BSS slots:
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib....ent_key=729821
> Thinking this might allude to them finding a way to trade bandwidth.


Directv filed bonds for BSS satellites at 110, 99 and 103, while surrendering its 107 license. Meanwhile, Echostar filed some bonds of its own, while Pegasus and Intelsat both surrendered some of their licenses. Looks like the parties are working out the "BSS Mess™"


----------



## Sixto

More info related to D12/W7:"Reston, Va.-based ILS customarily assigns launch vehicles to specific satellites from the start of vehicle construction, with last-minute customers accommodated only when an existing customer faces delays and cannot use its assigned rocket. Industry officials said the rocket to be used for W7 previously was slated to launch DirecTV Group's DirecTV 12 satellite in mid 2009. The satellite, under construction by Boeing Satellite Systems, is now slated for delivery in late 2009 or 2010, the sources said."

http://www.spacenews.com/launch/eutelsat-moves-from-sea-launch-ils.html​
This seems to confirm what we've been speculating, that W7 is indeed taking D12's slot, and D12 will be later.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> More info related to D12/W7:"Reston, Va.-based ILS customarily assigns launch vehicles to specific satellites from the start of vehicle construction, with last-minute customers accommodated only when an existing customer faces delays and cannot use its assigned rocket. Industry officials said the rocket to be used for W7 previously was slated to launch DirecTV Group's DirecTV 12 satellite in mid 2009. The satellite, under construction by Boeing Satellite Systems, is now slated for delivery in late 2009 or 2010, the sources said. "​http://www.spacenews.com/launch/eutelsat-moves-from-sea-launch-ils.html


I would bet that money almost certainly changed hands. D12 has been under construction for years and the satellite bus itself is nothing unusual; it's probably been available for over a year. Eutelsat's need is pretty urgent since their last vehicle went belly-up pretty much from the time they flipped the on switch.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I would bet that money almost certainly changed hands. D12 has been under construction for years and the satellite bus itself is nothing unusual; it's probably been available for over a year. Eutelsat's need is pretty urgent since their last vehicle went belly-up pretty much from the time they flipped the on switch.


Yep, certainly agree. $=change.


----------



## Sixto

It should also be noted that there were two versions of the W7 article referenced above. The previous version said: "One industry official said that in this case, a Proton vehicle was made available when a Russian government telecommunications satellite faced delays". The 2nd (current) version states D12.


----------



## Sixto

Updated post#1 with latest W7/D12 speculation.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I would bet that money almost certainly changed hands. D12 has been under construction for years and the satellite bus itself is nothing unusual; it's probably been available for over a year. Eutelsat's need is pretty urgent since their last vehicle went belly-up pretty much from the time they flipped the on switch.


But couldn't the necessary changes in DIRECTV12's Ka band radio package to Ka-hi for it's CONUS beam transponders really caused such technical delays to miss it's original launch slot ahead of W7?


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Just as a summary. All the BSS was granted this week. Here's the summary:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00031	Intelsat	S2662	91	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00042	Pegasus  	S2698	91	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> 
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00099	DirecTV  	S2711	99	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00029	Intelsat	S2660	99	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> 
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00100	DirecTV  	S2712	103	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> 
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00049	DirecTV  	S2242	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00052	EchoStar	S2442	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00043	Pegasus  	S2699	107	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> 
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00051	EchoStar	S2441	111	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050	DirecTV  	S2243	111	17300-17800	Grant 7/28/2009


And after today's BSS announcements:


Code:


SAT-LOA-20050210-00031	Intelsat	S2662	91	17300-17800 Surrendered
SAT-LOA-20060412-00042	Pegasus  	S2698	91	17300-17800 Surrendered

SAT-LOA-20060908-00099	DirecTV  	S2711	99	17300-17800 Paid
SAT-LOA-20050210-00029	Intelsat	S2660	99	17300-17800 Surrendered

SAT-LOA-20060908-00100	DirecTV  	S2712	103	17300-17800 Paid

SAT-LOA-19970605-00049	DirecTV  	S2242	107	17300-17800 Surrendered
SAT-LOA-20020328-00052	EchoStar	S2442	107	17300-17800 Paid
SAT-LOA-20060412-00043	Pegasus  	S2699	107	17300-17800 Surrendered

SAT-LOA-20020328-00051	EchoStar	S2441	111	17300-17800 Paid
SAT-LOA-19970605-00050	DirecTV  	S2243	111	17300-17800 Paid

* 17700-17800 for International Only


----------



## Tom Robertson

Very surprising surrenders. Intelesat and Pegasus both are shutout (at least in this arc.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> But couldn't the necessary changes in DIRECTV12's Ka band radio package to Ka-hi for it's CONUS beam transponders really caused such technical delays to miss it's original launch slot ahead of W7?


I don't think the Ka package had anything to do with it. If there are technical matters, it seems to me that they would involve the RB-2A side of things (the BSS band payload). However, again, all of Directv's filings with the FCC evidence a very well thought-out plan. Add in the known urgency for Eutelsat to get their next bird in the air and the simpler explanation is Directv swapped slots with them for compensation. After all, Directv hasn't added capacity in quite some time and the subscriber base continues to grow. They're really not in a big hurry for D12 at this time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> After all, Directv hasn't added capacity in quite some time and the subscriber base continues to grow. They're really not in a big hurry for D12 at this time.


But WE are! 

Seriously though....that little bit won't make much difference.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Very surprising surrenders. Intelesat and Pegasus both are shutout (at least in this arc.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yes, thought DirecTV was going to get 99 & 103 fully, but Intelsat and Pegasus were going to get part of the other slots. Unless there's more going on, with 91 now appearing to be free which either of the two could have taken. Also thought DirecTV would have taken 107 instead of 111, but maybe related to something else going on that they took 111.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yes, thought DirecTV was going to get 99 & 103 fully, but Intelsat and Pegasus were going to get part of the other slots. Unless there's more going on, with 91 now appearing to be free which either of the two could have taken. Also thought DirecTV would have taken 107 instead of 111, but maybe related to something else going on that they took 111.


Ka (well, the BSS part of Ka) from 111 (110.9) probably doesn't need a new physical LNB for reception using a standard AU-9 dish. 107 might, however.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> I don't think the Ka package had anything to do with it. If there are technical matters, it seems to me that they would involve the RB-2A side of things (the BSS band payload). However, again, all of Directv's filings with the FCC evidence a very well thought-out plan. Add in the known urgency for Eutelsat to get their next bird in the air and the simpler explanation is Directv swapped slots with them for compensation. After all, Directv hasn't added capacity in quite some time and the subscriber base continues to grow. They're really not in a big hurry for D12 at this time.


I'd agree that this was definitely a case of Eutelsat passing out some green to get something it needs badly and DirecTV being in a position where they can accept that because D12 isn't an urgent need. Sixto's analysis still indicates that there is potential free space and ppv replacements if DirecTV wanted to add more channels. Beyond that they have run D10 with 2 extra Conus tps in the past and should be able to do the same with D11. 4 more tp's could temporarily host 20 more channels until d12 launched. I am 100% convinced that if DirecTV felt it needed more HD channels it could do it right now but it doesn't so it isn't. All the numbers indicate that DirecTV is doing well still. They are still moving forward with more channels just a little slower than maybe some would like and they could if they needed to move faster.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Ka (well, the BSS part of Ka) from 111 (110.9) probably doesn't need a new physical LNB for reception using a standard AU-9 dish. 107 might, however.


Good point.


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Ka (well, the BSS part of Ka) from 111 (110.9) probably doesn't need a new physical LNB for reception using a standard AU-9 dish. 107 might, however.


It would change the i.f. up in frequency, but might work. They might need a converter feeding the IRDs or an expanded SWM.


----------



## Shades228

Tom Robertson said:


> As of today, no one. The new band allocations were just awarded a few months ago by the FCC. Dish and DIRECTV both were awarded several slots, along with others.
> 
> DIRECTV took the somewhat risky approach to prepare D12 with a BSS package before the awards had been finalized. Looks like a great payoff as DIRECTV will be first to have a BSS package in space, likely years before anyone else.
> 
> (Also saves on the performance bond paid to the government--DIRECTV will get that back immediately for this slot.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


They may not have completely prepared it which is why it appears to be moved now in the launch schedule. The W-7 may have been bumped because DirecTV needed more time to prepare and test. It would work out for both companies.


----------



## mjlthuston

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But WE are!
> 
> Seriously though....that little bit won't make much difference.


It can be a significant inconvinience to us who don't have local channels though. I understand that in the big picture this has a small impact, but to us who are impacted it's a big difference..


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I don't think the Ka package had anything to do with it. If there are technical matters, it seems to me that they would involve the RB-2A side of things (the BSS band payload). However, again, all of Directv's filings with the FCC evidence a very well thought-out plan. Add in the known urgency for Eutelsat to get their next bird in the air and the simpler explanation is Directv swapped slots with them for compensation. After all, Directv hasn't added capacity in quite some time and the subscriber base continues to grow. They're really not in a big hurry for D12 at this time.


Ok;

I can accept that if anyone can recall the approximate time of DirecTV's decision to launch D12 instead of using it as a ground spare. Then from that point factoring in a reasonable time for incorporation of the RB-2A package as well as modifying the CONUS beams for Ka-hi (very speculative for us to estimate I realize), then if it still falls way short of the end of '09 I would say it's most likely that DirecTV did allow it's launch slot to be bumped for the more urgent W7 in favor of financial compensation.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> Ka (well, the BSS part of Ka) from 111 (110.9) probably doesn't need a new physical LNB for reception using a standard AU-9 dish. 107 might, however.


There really isn't anywhere in the basic stacking plan for reception from 111 as a separate 500mhz block. I'd have to go back and double check the exact numbers but I think it might actually be possible to combine bss from 111 with 110/119 since together they amount to a little over half the possible tps and they got half of the bss allocation at 111 and BSS actually looses a couple tps so ends up with only 28tps or something along those lines. This would definitely require a new lnb with a new multi-switch. Would definitely be useful for adding some additional bandwidth for international channels and what ever else they decide are going to be staying with the sl5 over the sl3.

Would it be possible to modify the locations so that 110 and 111 were actually hosted by a single sat?


----------



## Shades228

Could those spot beams be used to test mpeg 4 only? Is there enough bandwidth for that?


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> Ok;
> 
> I can accept that if anyone can recall the approximate time of DirecTV's decision to launch D12 instead of using it as a ground spare. Then from that point factoring in a reasonable time for incorporation of the RB-2A package as well as modifying the CONUS beams for Ka-hi (very speculative for us to estimate I realize), then if it still falls way short of the end of '09 I would say it's most likely that DirecTV did allow it's launch slot to be bumped for the more urgent W7 in favor of financial compensation.


Well as a rough number the previous thread on D12 was started on 07-27-08, 10:59 AM so we've been talking about it being in use for over a year and from that post



> 02/28/2008: DirecTV Investor Meeting Presentation:
> 
> "Will launch D12 because the growing importance of HD warrants its use to expand national capacity. Launch expected late 2009. Capacity for more than 200 HD national channels"


So over a year and a half since DirecTV publicly announced it which means they were probably planing it going back even further.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Chart-13 from today's presentation: "50% increase in HD capacity with new D12 satellite. 130 national HD channel capacity increasing to 200".http://investor.directv.com/common/...e=DIRECTV Bofa Merrill Lynch Presentation.pdf​And we know D12 has capacity for 80.


I really wish they would have commented on some of their HD-LIL plans, but oh well...

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mjlthuston said:


> It can be a significant inconvinience to us who don't have local channels though. I understand that in the big picture this has a small impact, but to us who are impacted it's a big difference..


Absolutely so.

Not trying to minimize that....just point out that after waiting this long...the change is minor.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> Ok;
> 
> I can accept that if anyone can recall the approximate time of DirecTV's decision to launch D12 instead of using it as a ground spare. Then from that point factoring in a reasonable time for incorporation of the RB-2A package as well as modifying the CONUS beams for Ka-hi (very speculative for us to estimate I realize), then if it still falls way short of the end of '09 I would say it's most likely that DirecTV did allow it's launch slot to be bumped for the more urgent W7 in favor of financial compensation.


I'm almost certain D12 was always planned to go to space, from the very beginning. Until D10 and D11 were solidly in space and tested, D12's role might have been in flux, but always planned to go up. 

Also, DIRECTV has always been very good at taking advantage of strategic opportunities that fit into their long-term plan. While everyone knew that BSS frequencies would be available, no one was sure when the FCC would finally act. (Tho people who watch the FCC for a living might have had a good guess.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

BTW, probably a minor point;

But I assume the frequency ranges listed for these granted BSS slots posted by Sixto, are not accurate for CONUS transmission at least. Or has the FCC assignment for BSS been changed from the downlink of 17.3-17.7 Ghz to 17.3-17.8 Ghz?

Isn't 17.7-17.8 Ghz still reserved for terrestrial microwave service?


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> BTW, probably a minor point;
> 
> But I assume the frequency ranges listed for these granted BSS slots posted by Sixto, are not accurate for CONUS transmission at least. Or has the FCC assignment for BSS been changed from the downlink of 17.3-17.7 Ghz to 17.3-17.8 Ghz?
> 
> Isn't 17.7-17.8 Ghz still reserved for terrestrial microwave service?


It's up to 17.7 to use. RB-2A is 17345-17700 MHz.

The 17.7 to 17.8 was international only. I should update that post.


----------



## Gary Toma

Here's a link to a post in the Beam Footprint thread, with FCC info dated 9/11/09 on DIRECTV's 4 (now 3) BSS Sats.

Click *HERE*


----------



## P Smith

evan_s said:


> *There really isn't anywhere in the basic stacking plan for reception from 111 as a separate 500mhz block*. I'd have to go back and double check the exact numbers but I think it might actually be possible to combine bss from 111 with 110/119 since together they amount to a little over half the possible tps and they got half of the bss allocation at 111 and BSS actually looses a couple tps so ends up with only 28tps or something along those lines. This would definitely require a new lnb with a new multi-switch. Would definitely be useful for adding some additional bandwidth for international channels and what ever else they decide are going to be staying with the sl5 over the sl3.
> 
> Would it be possible to modify the locations so that 110 and 111 were actually hosted by a single sat?


You don't need that additional 500 Mhz trunk, if new SWM will have one more input for the sat.


----------



## Sixto

gct said:


> Here's a link to a post in the Beam Footprint thread, with FCC info dated 9/11/09 on DIRECTV's 4 (now 3) BSS Sats.
> 
> Click *HERE*


Yep, posted here at 1:03pm ET ... tough to beat this thread! 

Although sometimes Lefty and I are slackers.

(just having fun )


----------



## DirectMan

Any discount in the launch costs to D* for possibly swapping places and accepting a later launch date is unlikely to be material enough to require financial disclosure (maybe 10-20% of contracted launch price) of what may be a $100-$120 million launch cost. So unlikely we will find out real reason unless disclosure by D*.

Extra costs to Eutelsat over original Sea Launch maybe $35 million + payment to D*: 
http://www.spacenews.com/launch/ils-proton-rocket-launches-asiasat-satellite.html

Perhaps Sea Launch and or its insurers are covering some of these costs?


----------



## LameLefty

DirectMan said:


> Perhaps Sea Launch and or its insurers are covering some of these costs?


SeaLaunch is actually in bankruptcy right now. They're not paying anybody much of anything.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> You don't need that additional 500 Mhz trunk, if new SWM will have one more input for the sat.


To be more precise, since the BSS band uses both right and left circular channels a new SWiM-LNB would need an additional two internal inputs. And I think this would only be practical for the SWiMLine LNB concept, as I cannot imagine a six output SlimLine LNB with a cumbersome six lines running from the Ka/Ku ODU dish. Four is bad enough.

However, any BSS capable SWM module for MDU's or whatever would be problematic and need some kind of second dish arrangement.


----------



## DirectMan

I would think that there would be a good chance that one of the 4 BSS spotbeams targeted for the western US would be aimed at Southern California. Because it is still somewhat of an experimental technology it is likely that having the ability to test locally by the LA based D* headquarters staff and Boeing satellite staff would be an option they would employ.


----------



## RAD

DirectMan said:


> I would think that there would be a good chance that one of the 4 BSS spotbeams targeted for the western US would be aimed at Southern California. Because it is still somewhat of an experimental technology it is likely that having the ability to test locally by the LA based D* headquarters staff and Boeing satellite staff would be an option they would employ.


IIRC, DirecTV11 had a BSS payload on it that allowed for testing already, that's why it took so long for D11 to go active for customers.

It might be they've target the western US so they can add HD LIL service for some of the smaller DMA's where they'd probably be looking at a small number of people that would need replacement dish/STB's (if needed).


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> SeaLaunch is actually in bankruptcy right now. They're not paying anybody much of anything.


Chapter 11 (reorganization) temporarily relieves Sea Launch from some of the old debt but it doesn't prevent them from spending new money; especially if making these payments prevents them from being assessed much larger breach of contract damages.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Chapter 11 (reorganization) temporarily relieves Sea Launch from some of the old debt but it doesn't prevent them from spending new money; especially if making these payments prevents them from being assessed much larger breach of contract damages.


"Temporarily"? Nice to know you've added federal bankruptcy law to your list of topics to post nonsense about. Ask GM shareholders and retirees how "temporary" their loss of stock value and health/pension benefits have been. 

The fact is, SeaLaunch was well-capitalized from the outset and has still ended up in bankruptcy despite a steady backlog of orders and being one of only three main players in the international launch market. That sort of performance doesn't inspire investor confidence.

Please, stick to what you know instead of continuing to clutter up Directv threads with babble.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> "Temporarily"? Nice to know you've added federal bankruptcy law to your list of topics to post nonsense about. Ask GM shareholders and retirees how "temporary" their loss of stock value and health/pension benefits have been.


The environmentally conscious option is shredding their shareholder, pension and/or health care plan documents and recycling them. The reorganization option may allow them to ride out the storm and salvage some value from their "ownership".


> The fact is, SeaLaunch was well-capitalized from the outset and has still ended up in bankruptcy despite a steady backlog of orders and being one of only three main players in the international launch market. That sort of performance doesn't inspire investor confidence.


Nobody is asserting that the investors should be confident or optimistic. Investing is a gamble even when you bet on the biggest names.

What makes no sense at all is assuring that a process like launching a satellite (that has a slightly better than even chance of ultimate success) will necessarily lead to a nearly complete slate of programming by a date certain. This is especially questionable given the uncertainty of the launch date.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> The environmentally conscious option is shredding their shareholder, pension and/or health care plan documents and recycling them. The reorganization option may allow them to ride out the storm and salvage some value from their "ownership".Nobody is asserting that the investors should be confident or optimistic. Investing is a gamble even when you bet on the biggest names.


What the Sam Hedes does this have to do with D12 - NOTHING! 


> What makes no sense at all is assuring that a process like launching a satellite (that has a slightly better than even chance of ultimate success) will necessarily lead to a nearly complete slate of programming by a date certain. This is especially questionable given the *uncertainty* of the launch date.


*un⋅cer⋅tain⋅ty*  /ʌnˈsɜrtnti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhn-sur-tn-tee] -noun, plural -ties for 2. 
1. the state of being uncertain; doubt; hesitancy: His uncertainty gave impetus to his inquiry. 
2. an instance of uncertainty, doubt, etc. 
3. unpredictability; indeterminacy; indefiniteness. 

A formal launch date is *not* publically available, and is subject to launch conditions, equipment readiness, testing results, governmental regulations, and other variables common to rocket science technology. LameLefty and Sixto are experts in this area.

The launch is predictable and publically announced without doubt (DirecTV sets the date internally), it is set up within the timeframes of the aforementioned conditions (so it *is* determined), and known to be within a launch window of time (not infinite). :nono2:

When a poster *who is a Dish customer *continues to post false and/or misleading information in the DirecTV threads....it is clear as to your intent - and its not for the betterment of DirecTV customers who frequent the DBSTalk threads to get *viable* information.

Get along little doggie, get along...


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> ...The fact is, SeaLaunch was well-capitalized from the outset and has still ended up in bankruptcy despite a steady backlog of orders and being one of only three main players in the international launch market. That sort of performance doesn't inspire investor confidence.


Interesting how appearances can be so deceiving. For instance after watching the professional way all of SeaLaunch's pre-launch operations were carried out and then the celebration by it's employees following DIRECTV-11's successful launch and injection into it's geosynchronous transfer orbit you would have guessed a profitable company and never that anything was wrong.

Yet buried behind the scenes the company was in financial trouble and spiraling down toward bankruptcy.

Crazy-#*$! economy and world man...:nono2:


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A formal launch date is *not* publically available, and is subject to launch conditions, equipment readiness, testing results, governmental regulations, and other variables common to rocket science technology.


I challenge you to explain how DIRECTV can control any of the above "subject to" items with certainty.


> LameLefty and Sixto are experts in this area.


They are recognized experts here at DBSTalk, but I'm not sure they are "the" experts on the subject. I respect the efforts that they put forth just as I expect that they respect the efforts that others put forth in the search for the best information possible.


> The launch is predictable and publically announced without doubt (DirecTV sets the date internally), it is set up within the timeframes of the aforementioned conditions (so it *is* determined), and known to be within a launch window of time (not infinite). :nono2:


DIRECTV can set all the dates that they want, but ILS, Boeing, existing orbiting object conflicts and Mother Nature (especially as Winter approaches) can pretty much tell them that they need to change those dates.


> When a poster *who is a Dish customer *continues to post false and/or misleading information in the DirecTV threads...


Insisting that my posts are somehow false or misleading because of the TV service I subscribe to doesn't make them any less (or any more) valid. The fact that these accusations rarely come with contra-indicative evidence makes the accusations seem false or misleading.


----------



## srenker

So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> I challenge you to explain how DIRECTV can control any of the above "subject to" items with certainty.


It's called planning. 

I challenge you to read the entire D12 pre-launch thread and all links to become informed. The first post alone contains more information than most people can digest in one sitting. It also contains numerous reference links to governmental filings on D12, so one might suspect there's more than "uncertainty".

I suspect only a few of us have actually read them *all*. I know Sixto and LameLefty have, which is why their information posts are valuable.


> Insisting that my posts are somehow false or misleading because of the TV service I subscribe to doesn't make them any less (or any more) valid. The fact that these accusations rarely come with contra-indicative evidence makes the accusations seem false or misleading.


If you or anyone else is misleading people to incorrectly understand something - they are counter-productive.

Your statements as to the certainty of the D12 launch is misleading in the least and false in general.

As many others have stated....*for a Dish customer *to be posting information as to what DirecTV will or won't do, why it did something, how it did something, or when it does something.....is a *non-subscriber's speculative opinion* at best.

:backtotop


----------



## harsh

srenker said:


> So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


It could, but that will depend a great deal on the power used to push the signal. There's currently a lot of jockeying going on to determine the slot spacing for this band and some are calling for schemes that may not allow for "full power".

If BSS were the answer to rain fade, I would have hoped that they would have tested it in the southeast U.S. where fade seems to be a much bigger problem. Then again, now that the hurricane season is essentially over, snow is the next big impediment on the weather schedule.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

srenker said:


> So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


Great question - you might want to wait from LameLefty or Sixto to chime in with an answer....they know their stuff in this arena.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's called planning.


Giving it a name doesn't make it any more substantive.


> I challenge you to read the entire D12 pre-launch thread and all links to become informed.


I have followed the aforementioned thread since inception and have offered a great deal of new material and discussion along the way.


> The first post alone contains more information than most people can digest in one sitting. It also contains numerous reference links to governmental filings on D12, so one might suspect there's more than "uncertainty".


I've pointed out where some of those items are seemingly in conflict. You can't have a launch window in October if the satellite isn't delivered until October. The first post has lots of information but the interpretation is in the ongoing discussion.


> Your statements as to the certainty of the D12 launch is misleading in the least and false in general.


Do you have supporting documentation or are you just flailing?


> As many others have stated....*for a Dish customer *to be posting information as to what DirecTV will or won't do, why it did something, how it did something, or when it does something.....is a *non-subscriber's speculative opinion* at best.


Being a DIRECTV subscriber doesn't somehow endow one with otherwise unattainable insight on the launch of any satellite. We all have access to the same information and it is how we use the information that sets us apart.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Being a DIRECTV subscriber doesn't somehow endow one with otherwise unattainable insight on the launch of any satellite.


There are a number of folks here at DBSTalk who have various non-public knowledge resources on various topics. Non-disclosure rules always apply.

Being a subscriber motivates people to help fellow users to the same service.

What motivates a non-subscriber to post in another service's thread?

Enough said.

For the last time ----

:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

srenker said:


> So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


It's my understanding that BSS, being a subset of the Ku band, will perform similarly with regard to weather interference; that is to say, it should generally be better than Ka and be a little bit more tolerant of slight dish misalignment.

The technical data attached to the various BSS license applications, authorizations and requests related to RB-2A have a great deal of RF attenuation and interference data; I lack the RF background necessary to discuss that material in non-mathematical terms (and I'll note as well that despite being less than a semester away from a undergrad minor in mathematics, my formal math education recedes further into the past with every passing day . .. :lol. Perhaps VeryOldSchool, Tom or someone else could comment in a bit more detail.


----------



## kevinwmsn

harsh said:


> If BSS were the answer to rain fade, I would have hoped that they would have tested it in the southeast U.S. where fade seems to be a much bigger problem. Then again, now that the hurricane season is essentially over, snow is the next big impediment on the weather schedule.


Testing it out in southeast would be a great test for rain fade. I hope BSS is more weather resistant than Ka. But Harsh, apparently you haven't lived in the Southeast with the above statements about hurricanes. We are still in the busy part of hurricane season, just ask other folks in the Louisiana, Mississippi ,Alabama,Florida whether they are dish/directtv subscribers. There have been plenty of September/early October storms that have done considerable damage to think it is "essentially over".


----------



## Groundhog45

kevinwmsn said:


> Testing it out in southeast would be a great test for rain fade. I hope BSS is more weather resistant than Ka. But Harsh, apparently you haven't lived in the Southeast with the above statements about hurricanes. We are still in the busy part of hurricane season, just ask other folks in the Louisiana, Mississippi ,Alabama,Florida whether they are dish/directtv subscribers. There have been plenty of September/early October storms that have done considerable damage to think it is "essentially over".


Very true. Today is the one year anniversary of Hurricane Ike hitting Galveston, Texas.


----------



## Ernie

srenker said:


> So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


Since the BSS downlink band (17.3-17.8 Ghz) is closer to the Ka-lo downlink band (18.3-18.8 Ghz), than the Ku downlink band (12.2-12.7 Ghz), I would expect it to behave more like Ka-lo. The change in water absorption is steep but fairly linear from 10 Ghz (.01 dB/km) to 20 Ghz (.1 dB/km). (The change in oxygen absorption is negligible). I would guess the rain fade to be 80% of the Ka-lo rainfade.

Ernie


----------



## harsh

I understand that the hurricane season officially runs through November 30th. My reasoning is that it doesn't look like DIRECTV 12 is launching until late November at the very earliest (unless Boeing finishes substantially earlier than projected; something that rarely happens). If that is the case, testing would likely not commence until some time in January (remembering that the holidays are stacked up around that time of year).


----------



## smiddy

srenker said:


> So here's a technical question: Being lower frequencies than Ka, would the BSS band resist weather fade better and/or perform better at long distances? I could see that being a win for Alaska and Hawaii.


Here's some information on RF Absorption: http://www.tscm.com/rf_absor.pdf

This second link refers to higher frequencies, the information also relavent to all RF: http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet70/oet70.pdf


----------



## bobnielsen

Good find! I recall seeing curves like that about 30 years ago but when I looked over the weekend I couldn't locate them in any of the technical books I currently have (and I'm not sure why I still keep them 15 years after early retirement).


----------



## smiddy

bobnielsen said:


> Good find! I recall seeing curves like that about 30 years ago but when I looked over the weekend I couldn't locate them in any of the technical books I currently have (and I'm not sure why I still keep them 15 years after early retirement).


I keep mine too...if you have any RF references most carry a similar set of diagrams/pictorials discribing the attenuation brought about by oxegen and water, especially if you have any references to link anaylsis. My desktop ones are from the Electronic Warfare (EW) point of view.


----------



## jazzyjez

This may be of interest (I don't know if these interplanetary missions use the same facilities as those for commercial satellites):
BBC news reports that the Russian Phobos-Grunt spacecraft - scheduled for an Oct/Nov 2009 launch from Baikonur (to match the window for a Mars mission) - may now be postponed for up to 2 years.


----------



## bobnielsen

smiddy said:


> I keep mine too...if you have any RF references most carry a similar set of diagrams/pictorials discribing the attenuation brought about by oxegen and water, especially if you have any references to link anaylsis. My desktop ones are from the Electronic Warfare (EW) point of view.


I worked briefly (1966-68) in that field. I have a lot of RF references, but most of them relate to hardware design. I looked a bit further and found a small curve in an old copy of the ITT Reference Data for Radio Engineers (a.k.a the "Green Bible" although later editions were blue) which has limited data but correlates to your reference.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jazzyjez said:


> This may be of interest (I don't know if these interplanetary missions use the same facilities as those for commercial satellites):
> BBC news reports that the Russian Phobos-Grunt spacecraft - scheduled for an Oct/Nov 2009 launch from Baikonur (to match the window for a Mars mission) - may now be postponed for up to 2 years.


Thanks for the find and for sharing.

Baikonur is a huge complex. Several launch facilities. The definitely can launch low earth orbit without affecting GEO sat schedules. I'm guessing this probe would also be on another launch pad, so doesn't impact D12. Mostly because this probe never showed up on the schedules for the GEO sat launches. 

Thanks again,
Tom


----------



## Ernie

smiddy said:


> I keep mine too...if you have any RF references most carry a similar set of diagrams/pictorials discribing the attenuation brought about by oxegen and water, especially if you have any references to link anaylsis. My desktop ones are from the Electronic Warfare (EW) point of view.


This one seems to be right: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.htm

Ernie


----------



## doctor j

I see that my post on NIMIQ 5 has been moved to Dish forum :

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2220100&posted=1#post2220100

BUT believe it has significance in the Directv arena.
? about 72.5 may belong elsewhere but the announcement at the end of the live launch broadcast that W-7 was the next ILS Proton/Breeze-M launch is significant in relation to the timing of D-12 launch

Respectfully submitted:
Doctor j


----------



## QuickDrop

doctor j said:


> I see that my post on NIMIQ 5 has been moved to Dish forum :
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2220100&posted=1#post2220100
> 
> BUT believe it has significance in the Directv arena.
> ? about 72.5 may belong elsewhere but the announcement at the end of the live launch broadcast that W-7 was the next ILS Proton/Breeze-M launch is significant in relation to the timing of D-12 launch
> 
> Respectfully submitted:
> Doctor j


I agree. I don't understand why your post (and P. Smith's response) was deleted. It comes across as censoring bad news for D*. If you information or conjecture was incorrect in some way, I would rather hear it disputed than not know it at all.


----------



## LameLefty

QuickDrop said:


> I agree. I don't understand why your post (and P. Smith's response) was deleted. It comes across as censoring bad news for D*. If you information or conjecture was incorrect in some way, I would rather hear it disputed than not know it at all.


I don't know what P Smith's response was, but there's nothing particularly "negative" about Directv's removal of LILs from 72.5 Those transponders have been leased and frankly those outlying slots that require additional dishes have always been a real PITA for Directv. Moving those locals to MPEG4 in the "core" 99-101-103 arc have obviously been planned for a long time.


----------



## harsh

As the go live date for D12 has long been slated as the first half of 2010, this isn't "bad news". The announcement represents a game changer for those who still clung to the mid-October to mid-November time frame but that pretty much went out the window with the D12 LOA application indicating that the satellite would be completed in October.

The Eutelsat W7 announcement swept November under the carpet.

Last year, another DISH leased satellite, Ciel 2 (129W), launched on December 10th so that leaves hope that D12 might still go up this year.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> As the go live date for D12 has long been slated as the first half of 2010, this isn't "bad news". The announcement represents a game changer for those who still clung to the mid-October to mid-November time frame but that pretty much went out the window with the D12 LOA application indicating that the satellite would be completed in October.
> 
> The Eutelsat W7 announcement swept November under the carpet.
> 
> Last year, another DISH leased satellite, Ciel 2 (129W), launched on December 10th so that leaves hope that D12 might still go up this year.


Oh, please. 72.5 has nothing whatsoever to do with D12. Get off it, already. :nono:


----------



## HoTat2

QuickDrop said:


> I agree. I don't understand why your post (and P. Smith's response) was deleted. It comes across as censoring bad news for D*. If you information or conjecture was incorrect in some way, I would rather hear it disputed than not know it at all.


+1 here as well;

I thought I was seeing things at first as I noticed the new posts, but didn't really have a chance to read them as I had to leave the PC for a brief errand, then when I came back they were gone without any "moved" post notification from a moderator, so I thought maybe they had been deleted as inappropriate or something.

Oh well .... back on topic, since I see that according to the EKB Nimiq-5 is destined to lease 16 transponders to Echostar at 72.7. I gather that these are the same Ku transponder frequencies DirecTV now formerly used for providing locals to the 72.5 subs from DIRECTV-1R?


----------



## P Smith

I was slightly disagree with DJ regarding his estimate for time frame for D12 launch as mid-December and said "Umm, counting 5-6 weeks for whole process, I wouldn't see it early then end of Dec/Jan '10."


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator hat on>
Posts pertaining to Dish's new launch have been move into a new thread, in the appropriate forum. No posts have been deleted along those lines.

Please don't question the actions of moderation in public. If you have questions, please ask a moderator, who will look it up and try to give an answer. (We can't give out details relating to warnings or penalties.)

While D12 might have some bearing on the transponders at 72.5°, the launch of Nimiq 5 as pertains to 72.5° isn't really a part of this thread.

Lastly, Nimiq 5 is not bad news for DIRECTV at all.

Thanks for understanding,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Looks like Nimiq 5 has one more burn to go. One satellite at a time until D12. All good. Not sure of the "official" confirmation that W7 is next. Certainly seems that way. Someone have an official link? 

Then we can assume D12 is after W7, but that's not confirmed yet either. Very likely, but nothing official (yet).


----------



## LameLefty

Just FYI, Baikonur launched two separate orbital missions today (Nimiq-5 on Proton for ILS and a Soyuz-2 with some scientific satellites) about 3-1/2 hours apart. Clearly, range constraints and launch site tracking limits now drop out of any discussion about the interval between launches for ILS. :lol:

So, as I originally posited some months ago, the time between ILS launches will be based on spacecraft availability, booster/upper stage availability and processing, and man power to support it all, not range or launch site limitations.


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> Just FYI, Baikonur launched two separate orbital missions today (Nimiq-5 on Proton for ILS and a Soyuz-2 with some scientific satellites) about 3-1/2 hours apart. Clearly, range constraints and launch site tracking limits now drop out of any discussion about the interval between launches for ILS. :lol:
> 
> So, as I originally posited some months ago, the time between ILS launches will be based on spacecraft availability, booster/upper stage availability and processing, and man power to support it all, not range or launch site limitations.


Did anyone else watch the ILS live launch?
I did.
The final statements by the ILS representative was " the next ILS launch is W-7 mid november".

Baikonur is a huge facility with multiple launch facilities that can run parallel launch schedules , however ILS Proton/Breeze-M launch vehicles which launch GSO communication satellites , to my knowledge , have all come from PAD 39 with a turnaround of at minimum 4 to 6 weeks therefore a "mid november" W-7 launch would seemingly eliminate a chance of D-12 launch before "mid-december".

This is pure speculation from an uneducated yet meticulous observer.
It is at least a point of conjecture and can't be summarily dismissed.

I don't find a link to the replay , however I'm certain it will be available.
One can judge for themselves when available.

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> The final statements by the ILS representative was " the next ILS launch is W-7 mid november" ... I don't find a link to the replay , however I'm certain it will be available.


Thanks doctor j. It certainly seemed very likely that W7 was next so nice to hear it confirmed by the ILS rep. Now we just need some confirmation of D12.


----------



## P Smith

I would watch W7 launch, pretty sure ILS rep will spill those beans.


----------



## smiddy

Ernie said:


> This one seems to be right: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/atm-absorption.htm
> 
> Ernie


Yes, RF Cafe's site keeps a lot of reference materials. This particular graph doesn't give differences for sea level versus ground (ie dirt etcetera) areas, but works and does provide further insight into other items of attenuation which you can not control (natural stuff).


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Just FYI, Baikonur launched two separate orbital missions today (Nimiq-5 on Proton for ILS and a Soyuz-2 with some scientific satellites) about 3-1/2 hours apart. Clearly, range constraints and launch site tracking limits now drop out of any discussion about the interval between launches for ILS. :lol:
> 
> So, as I originally posited some months ago, the time between ILS launches will be based on spacecraft availability, booster/upper stage availability and processing, and man power to support it all, not range or launch site limitations.


This goes to, anything can happen with enough money!


----------



## P Smith

Nope, doesn't work that way for ILS - there is only one 'line/pipe' for the company at Baikonoor. Include machnery, halls, fuel, technicians, etc.


----------



## Tom Robertson

doctor j said:


> Did anyone else watch the ILS live launch?
> I did.
> The final statements by the ILS representative was " the next ILS launch is W-7 mid november".
> 
> Baikonur is a huge facility with multiple launch facilities that can run parallel launch schedules , however ILS Proton/Breeze-M launch vehicles which launch GSO communication satellites , to my knowledge , have all come from PAD 39 with a turnaround of at minimum 4 to 6 weeks therefore a "mid november" W-7 launch would seemingly eliminate a chance of D-12 launch before "mid-december".
> 
> This is pure speculation from an uneducated yet meticulous observer.
> It is at least a point of conjecture and can't be summarily dismissed.
> 
> I don't find a link to the replay , however I'm certain it will be available.
> One can judge for themselves when available.
> 
> Doctor j


Thanks Doctor j! Alas, I didn't watch--I'm glad I can get great info from you (just like Bonscott's blogging of DIRECTV investor webcasts!) 

Yes, Baikanor can parallel many launch activities as you've seen today. Alas, as P Smith points out, the ILS launch manifest is more singular in pipeline.

Obviously there is some overlap of projects. The preplanning goes on for months before a launch yet, they can maintain at least a once a month launch schedule.

So how much overlap can there be? Excellent question. While there is one pipeline (more or less), can there be two launch vehicles under different stages of preparation? (I suspect there can be somewhat, but I admit I'm surmising here. I do know they move parts from one building to another along the pipeline.) 

May W-7 be smooth and on the early side of mid-november with DIRECTV 12 amazingly soon (and also smooth) after that. 

Thanks again,
Tom


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Oh, please. 72.5 has nothing whatsoever to do with D12. Get off it, already. :nono:


Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.*

The discussion on the Nimiq 5 launch wasn't about the destination slot. It was all about the announcement of the next scheduled launch and which satellite would be (or not be) lofted. The next launch is _entirely_ pertinent to any discussion of the D12 launch as it is a launch that must happen more or less nominally and on time for D12 to be launched this year.

Do you disagree with this line of reasoning?

* Aldous Huxley, _Proper Studies_ 1927


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Nope, doesn't work that way for ILS - there is only one 'line/pipe' for the company at Baikonoor. Include machnery, halls, fuel, technicians, etc.


There's nothing magical about 4 - 6 weeks. It's all about how much $$ (er, Rubles) you want to throw at the situation. In many ways it's just like the shuttle here - the typical year nowadays sees 5 - 6 missions. However, there have been several years with 6 - 8, and during a 50 week period between late January 1985 and early January 1986, there were ten. Had Challenger not happened and SLC 6 at VAFB gone online, there would have been years with 12 - 14 missions, almost certainly.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> There's nothing magical about 4 - 6 weeks.


There is something magic about 4-6 weeks as the last several launches have required that much time on the ground at Baikonur. Citing records or building theories from launches done twelve years ago is to ignore the fact that things have changed due to some pretty spectacular accidents in the interim.

It isn't reasonable to assume that processing space is exclusive. There's quite a bit of time spent inspecting and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they could get to within a couple of weeks between launches if they're not waiting for someone or something else.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> There is something magic about 4-6 weeks as the last several launches have required that much time on the ground at Baikonur. Citing records or building theories from launches done twelve years ago is to ignore the fact that things have changed due to some pretty spectacular accidents in the interim.
> 
> It isn't reasonable to assume that processing space is exclusive. There's quite a bit of time spent inspecting and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they could get to within a couple of weeks between launches if they're not waiting for someone or something else.


Tell me again when you worked in aerospace and when you got that engineering degree? !rolling


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> There's nothing magical about 4 - 6 weeks. It's all about how much $$ (er, Rubles) you want to throw at the situation. In many ways it's just like the shuttle here - the typical year nowadays sees 5 - 6 missions. However, there have been several years with 6 - 8, and during a 50 week period between late January 1985 and early January 1986, there were ten. Had Challenger not happened and SLC 6 at VAFB gone online, there would have been years with 12 - 14 missions, almost certainly.


OK, realistically we could come to 1 months cycle if all logistics is executing perfectly.

Now add a coefficient of Russia's mentality [pi/2] and you'll get 5-6 weeks as ILS guy told us yesterday. 

Seriously speaking, look at Baikonoor facility map, count their labor force, take in account other pads activity and you'll not so confident in a slogan 'money will do it'. And really, add some level of russian mentality.


----------



## doctor j

you can see replay of Nimiq 5 launch at original site.

http://www.ccistream.com/ils091709/

Check out John Palme' the Dep. VP for Mission Assurance for ILS comments at minute 43 of 46.
You can move slider to the end if you don't care to watch it all.

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> ... as ILS guy told us yesterday.  ...


Hmmm. (wonder if someone has been holding back on us)


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> OK, realistically we could come to 1 months cycle if all logistics is executing perfectly.
> 
> Now add a coefficient of Russia's mentality [pi/2] and you'll get 5-6 weeks as ILS guy told us yesterday.
> 
> Seriously speaking, look at Baikonoor facility map, count their labor force, take in account other pads activity and you'll not so confident in a slogan 'money will do it'. And really, add some level of russian mentality.


Don't blame "Russian mentality." During the 1980's, the Soviet Union launched 103 Protons, 558 R-7 (Soyuz family), 156 R-14 Cosmos and 123 R-36 rockets.

As I have repeatedly noted, they will launch whatever the funding will allow. ILS also trumpeted Khrunichev's increased Proton production capability as recently as last year (up to 14 per year). There's a reason they're advertising that fact, folks.


----------



## doctor j

Anik on the nasa spaceflight forum has now moved D-12 launch to TBD

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.1005

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Ah forget the 80's military expenses - that's why Berlin wall fall - this time the country's economic is not for aerospace competition.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Ah forget the 80's military expenses - that's why Berlin wall fall - this time the country's economic is not for aerospace competition.


The 80's = money for space launches. That is EXACTLY my point. Money will allow more launches; lack of money will inhibit the launch rate. This is not that complicated.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> The 80's = money for space launches. That is EXACTLY my point. Money will allow more launches; lack of money will inhibit the launch rate. This is not that complicated.


True on one hand;

But regarding the 80's model as a comparison would ILS' customers today really appreciate the, to borrow the title from old Harold Lloyd movie "Safety Last," approach to conducting business like the former Soviet Union operated under?

I always felt the Soviet mentality at the time with a lot of these space launches was really more about showboating to the west for propaganda purposes instead of necessity. And whomever or whatever got hurt, killed, or damaged along the way was simply too bad and covered up for the sake of continuing to score points on the west.


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Anik on the nasa spaceflight forum has now moved D-12 launch to TBD
> 
> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.1005
> 
> Doctor j


Yep, that's the best we have right now besides CFO comment of end of the year.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> True on one hand;
> 
> But regarding the 80's model as a comparison would ILS' customers today really appreciate the, to borrow the title from old Harold Lloyd movie "Safety Last," approach to conducting business like the former Soviet Union operated under?


Actually, the Soviet model of space operations was very "Western" (e.g., "NASA-like"). Throw lots and lots of money and resources at it. The failure rates for those 80's launches was very, very low. Of the ones I listed, only 14 of those 558 R-7's failed. That's among the best launch reliability in the world. The Proton had 7 failures in 103 launches, a success rate over 93% . . . still among the best in the world.

In rocket launch operations, you WANT high launch rates - it drives down per-launch overhead costs, increases workforce familiarity with procedures and practices, and vastly increases the statistical basis for failure analysis when things do go wrong.


----------



## P Smith

[My pessimism and bringing that russian mentality's factor came from first hand FA info regarding manufacturing process of some parts for 1st stages...]


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> [My pessimism and bringing that russian mentality's factor came from first hand FA info regarding manufacturing process of some parts for 1st stages...]


As always P., thanks for the info. Great teamwork here.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:



> Actually, the Soviet model of space operations was very "Western" (e.g., "NASA-like"). Throw lots and lots of money and resources at it. The failure rates for those 80's launches was very, very low. Of the ones I listed, only 14 of those 558 R-7's failed. That's among the best launch reliability in the world. The Proton had 7 failures in 103 launches, a success rate over 93% . . . still among the best in the world.


Oh I didn't mean to imply that the former Soviet Union's terrible disregard for safety and human life was necessarily reflected in their launch success rate, but in their undoubtably brute force tactics and I would wager virtual slave labor, used to achieve it where no matter the risk to any launch personnel or other associated employees (I sincerely doubt the Soviets had anything resembling an OSHA ) or danger to the public, pollution and damage to the environment, was really of no matter to them.

Just get the rocket up there at all costs.



> ...In rocket launch operations, you WANT high launch rates - it drives down per-launch overhead costs, increases workforce familiarity with procedures and practices, and vastly increases the statistical basis for failure analysis when things do go wrong.


Well true, but not the old Soviet way of accomplishing it with it's characteristic apathy for the humane side of business.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Oh I didn't mean to imply that the former Soviet Union's terrible disregard for safety and human life was necessarily reflected in their launch success rate, but in their undoubtably brute force tactics and I would wager virtual slave labor, used to achieve it where no matter the risk to any launch personnel or other associated employees (I sincerely doubt the Soviets had anything resembling an OSHA ) or danger to the public, pollution and damage to the environment, was really of no matter to them.
> 
> Just get the rocket up there at all costs.
> 
> Well true, but not the old Soviet way of accomplishing it with it's characteristic apathy for the humane side of business.


Without disregarding the points you raise about health, safety and environmental regulations, the general fact is that those conditions did not generally occur in the Soviet aerospace industry of the late 20th century. Gulag labor was too risky for important State functions like building and launching rockets.

The one thing that the modern ILS _does_ do that no American-based launch operator could ever do is drop hypergolic stages on land (and probably not even in the oceans anymore). That $h!t is seriously nasty /dangerous and hypergolic servicing is one of the most expensive and labor-intensive part of space shuttle orbiter pre-launch and post-landing processing.

Hoper


----------



## QuickDrop

So is there now a consensus that for D12 to go live by 1/31/10 a new Cold War needs to happen pronto?


----------



## Tom Robertson

QuickDrop said:


> So is there now a consensus that for D12 to go live by 1/31/10 a new Cold War needs to happen pronto?


 Well... hopefully not. That might slow things down...

Yet we really do need to see it on a launch schedule pronto. Being listed as TBD is not good news. (And if it continues that way for very long would be bad news.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... hopefully not. That might slow things down...
> 
> Yet we really do need to see it on a launch schedule pronto. Being listed as TBD is not good news. (And if it continues that way for very long would be bad news.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I suspect Anik simply changed his list to "TBD" to reflect the conflict between earlier FCC documents discussing mid-October through mid-November, and the more recent news that Eutelsat really, REALLY wants to get their bird up and that ILS is apparently accommodating them. Since there has not been a PEEP of disgruntlement from Directv reported by industry sources, it's probably fair to surmise what we've already more or less figured out: first, Directv is in no big rush. Fall seasons have started; subscriber base continues to grow despite no significant channel additions, etc. Second: money either changed hands to move Eutelsat to the head of the line or D12 isn't ready. Of these two possibilities, it's much more likely to be the former rather than the latter; D12/RB-2A has been in the planning stages since 2004 so it's not likely to be that far behind schedule (unless someone dropped it or something - don't laugh; Lockheed did that to a satellite a few years ago :nono.

Time (and FCC filings) will tell, however.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> I suspect Anik simply changed his list to "TBD" to reflect the conflict between earlier FCC documents discussing mid-October through mid-November, and the more recent news that Eutelsat really, REALLY wants to get their bird up and that ILS is apparently accommodating them. Since there has not been a PEEP of disgruntlement from Directv reported by industry sources, it's probably fair to surmise what we've already more or less figured out: first, Directv is in no big rush. Fall seasons have started; subscriber base continues to grow despite no significant channel additions, etc. Second: money either changed hands to move Eutelsat to the head of the line or D12 isn't ready. Of these two possibilities, it's much more likely to be the former rather than the latter; D12/RB-2A has been in the planning stages since 2004 so it's not likely to be that far behind schedule (unless someone dropped it or something - don't laugh; Lockheed did that to a satellite a few years ago :nono.
> 
> Time (and FCC filings) will tell, however.


Yeah, one doesn't just grab a rolling car jack to move these babies around. 

Some of the test facilities Boeing has are amazing. The various shaker tables, the launch simulation chamber, the antenna testing chamber, etc. All just amazing.

Maybe I'll call Paula at ILS and suggest they just go ahead and get D12 up mid-october to keep the slate cleared for W-7   

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> Yeah, one doesn't just grab a rolling car jack to move these babies around.
> 
> Some of the test facilities Boeing has are amazing. The various shaker tables, the launch simulation chamber, the antenna testing chamber, etc. All just amazing.
> 
> Maybe I'll call Paula at ILS and suggest they just go ahead and get D12 up mid-october to keep the slate cleared for W-7
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


There were some impressive facilities there when I worked on satellites for Hughes in 1962-66 and I'm sure they pale compared to the current equipment. Still things happen--I got a phone call early one Sunday morning saying I needed to come in because when they did a spin test on ATS-1 one of the antennas came off and flew across the room, narrowly missing the first Surveyor spacecraft :eek2:

We had a redesign completed within a few days :bowdown:


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Yeah, one doesn't just grab a rolling car jack to move these babies around.
> 
> *Some of the test facilities Boeing has are amazing. The various shaker tables, the launch simulation chamber, the antenna testing chamber, etc. All just amazing.*
> 
> Maybe I'll call Paula at ILS and suggest they just go ahead and get D12 up mid-october to keep the slate cleared for W-7
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yes I can imagine, while my feelings certainly are mixed here though since I'm not at all happy about the seemingly never ending proliferation of space junk all this stuff eventually contributes to despite the impressive technology. On the other hand I wholeheartedly agree with you. Simply "AMAZING!"


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I'm only hearing crickets in this thread. No news is bad news. :crying_sa

:bowdown::gott: D12


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> I'm only hearing crickets in this thread. No news is bad news. :crying_sa
> 
> :bowdown::gott: D12


Waiting to confirm if D12 will follow W7 (which is the next ILS Proton-M/Briz-M launch).


----------



## rey_1178

Sixto said:


> Waiting to confirm if D12 will follow W7 (which is the next ILS Proton-M/Briz-M launch).


 i hope so


----------



## uncrules

rey_1178 said:


> i hope so


Me too. We need D12 to go up in December to start getting new channels around February.


----------



## smiddy

uncrules said:


> Me too. We need D12 to go up in December to start getting new channels around February.


I would suspect that may be a bit optimistic I'd say March, if it launches in December.


----------



## rey_1178

uncrules said:


> Me too. We need D12 to go up in December to start getting new channels around February.


Yeah but as smiddy mentioned that doesn't seem like it's going to happen. I wish and hope it does go up by December!


----------



## uncrules

smiddy said:


> I would suspect that may be a bit optimistic I'd say March, if it launches in December.


Didn't D10 become active in about 60 days? If so mid to late December would be about mid to late February. But even if not that, hopefully March.


----------



## smiddy

uncrules said:


> Didn't D10 become active in about 60 days? If so mid to late December would be about mid to late February. But even if not that, hopefully March.


I am the ultimate _Anticipator_ but this one will have some extra items to deal with which in the end will prolong its testing towards usage, even if they do testing in parallel, you take a hit on personnel and resources, so I will continue with a March projection, again, if it launches in December.


----------



## harsh

uncrules said:


> Didn't D10 become active in about 60 days?


81 days to going live on September 26, 2007. Signals showed up quite a bit earlier.


----------



## PackCat

Has this changed?

www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html
Late September: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur.
DirecTV-12 103°W Late02009-09 September 2009[1] ILS Proton Breeze M Boeing BSS-702

Tentative Launch Date was: 9/17/2009

Full Specs:
licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014
up to 80 channels of HD programming

PS. what's the crap with the 5 points... at least post it in a FAQ somewhere.


----------



## LameLefty

PackCat said:


> Has this changed?
> 
> www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html
> Late September: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur.
> DirecTV-12 103°W Late02009-09 September 2009[1] ILS Proton Breeze M Boeing BSS-702
> 
> Tentative Launch Date was: 9/17/2009
> 
> Full Specs:
> licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173014
> up to 80 channels of HD programming


The specs haven't changed but ILS has been shuffling their launch manifest around; whether that's to accommodate other customers like Eutelsat (which switched launch providers with the Sea-Launch bankruptcy and really, REALLY needs to get their new bird up) or to accommodate Directv as they finish up prep work with D12/RB-2A, or both, we don't know. Current best estimates put the launch now around early/mid-December (which jibes with some insider info that some folks have heard about backchannel).


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> 81 days to going live on September 26, 2007. Signals showed up quite a bit earlier.


Those 81 days seemed a lot longer though, as I recall, I was on DBSTalk.com everyday as much as possible waiting to see what was happening and anticipating more High Definition. We're 2 years down the road now and I'm not as anticipatory, though I am a tad bit eager to see this new bird up and transmitting.


----------



## P Smith

LL, by any optimistic forecast D12 cannot go early Dec, that would be less the 5 minimum weeks after successful (!) launch of W-7. Realistically we are talking about end of Dec/Jan'10 for D12 launch.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Those 81 days seemed a lot longer though, as I recall, I was on DBSTalk.com everyday as much as possible waiting to see what was happening and anticipating more High Definition. We're 2 years down the road now and I'm not as anticipatory, though I am a tad bit eager to see this new bird up and transmitting.


I'm pretty sure the 81 days was stretched out for a couple of reasons: first, the fact that it was the first Ka-lo band satellite; and second, the issue with the spotbeam configuration and any diagnostic/remedial efforts made to minimize the eventual impact). On the other hand, the RB-2A half of the bird may warrant some additional tests as well. Time will tell.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> On the other hand, the RB-2A half of the bird may warrant some additional tests as well. Time will tell.


That is my thinking too.


----------



## uncrules

smiddy said:


> That is my thinking too.


There was also the billing issue with a lot of accounts that delayed things a week.


----------



## Sixto

A little more (technical info) released today:D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=743323

"Upon further review, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") has become aware of a typographical error contained in the Schedule S submitted with the above referenced application. Specifically, a telecommand frequency set forth in Table S9 includes 29495 MHz. The correct frequency is 29497 MHz. DIRECTV requests that its application be revised to reflect this minor technical correction.

In addition, DIRECTV would also like to clarify one aspect of its application with respect to the spot beam information supplied therein. Although the DIRECTV 12 satellite has been designed with a total of 49 spot beams, only 44 of those beams will be used from the nominal 103° W.L. orbital location that is the subject of the pending application. As discussed in footnote four of the narrative, the satellite has been designed with the capability of performing the spot beam missions of either DIRECTV 10 at 103° W.L. or DIRECTV 11 at 99° W.L. (should it be repositioned to that orbital location at some time in the future). Accordingly, five of the 49 beams for which information has been submitted will not actually operate at 103° W.L. under the current authorization. The beams that will not operate at 103° W.L. are designated A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A4B9 and A4BD in Schedule S."

And RB-2A: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=743318

"Upon further review, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") has become aware of a typographical error contained in the Schedule S submitted with the above referenced application. Specifically, the first row DL1 in Table S7 indicates a maximum beam EIRP of 55.6 dBW. As stated in the narrative portion of the application, this value should instead be 61.6 dBW. DIRECTV requests that its application be revised to reflect this minor technical correction."​
Also, I was a little worried yesterday when the applications showed "blocked", but today they're back to "unblocked". Not sure why.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> A little more (technical info) released today:D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=743323
> 
> "Upon further review, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") has become aware of a typographical error contained in the Schedule S submitted with the above referenced application. Specifically, a telecommand frequency set forth in Table S9 includes 29495 MHz. The correct frequency is 29497 MHz. DIRECTV requests that its application be revised to reflect this minor technical correction.
> 
> In addition, DIRECTV would also like to clarify one aspect of its application with respect to the spot beam information supplied therein. Although the DIRECTV 12 satellite has been designed with a total of 49 spot beams, only 44 of those beams will be used from the nominal 103° W.L. orbital location that is the subject of the pending application. As discussed in footnote four of the narrative, the satellite has been designed with the capability of performing the spot beam missions of either DIRECTV 10 at 103° W.L. or DIRECTV 11 at 99° W.L. (should it be repositioned to that orbital location at some time in the future). Accordingly, five of the 49 beams for which information has been submitted will not actually operate at 103° W.L. under the current authorization. The beams that will not operate at 103° W.L. are designated A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A4B9 and A4BD in Schedule S."
> 
> And RB-2A: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=743318
> 
> "Upon further review, DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") has become aware of a typographical error contained in the Schedule S submitted with the above referenced application. Specifically, the first row DL1 in Table S7 indicates a maximum beam EIRP of 55.6 dBW. As stated in the narrative portion of the application, this value should instead be 61.6 dBW. DIRECTV requests that its application be revised to reflect this minor technical correction."​Also, I was a little worried yesterday when the applications showed "blocked", but today they're back to "unblocked". Not sure why.


So is this good news or bad news?


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So is this good news or bad news?


It's clarification and progress towards getting the FCC to approve the Filing.


----------



## HoTat2

TheRatPatrol said:


> So is this good news or bad news?


As worded I don't see it meaning either good or bad, but only minor technical corrections to their original LOA application to the FCC.

I am a little confused though about a portion of this information as to whether DIRECTV-12's spotbeams are intended to supplement DIRECTV-10 or meant to be a wholesale replacement with all 44 beams emanating from DIRECTV-12?

IOW, is DIRECTV-10 destined to become only a CONUS beam satellite with all it's spots eventually turned off?


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> IOW, is DIRECTV-10 destined to become only a CONUS beam satellite with all it's spots eventually turned off?


Which leads to a recent theory I have that D10 transponders 15 and 16 may be turned on again for CONUS ... been something recently that leads me to that conclusion. Maybe, Maybe not.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My guess (from having read a number of these) is that DIRECTV has prepared D12 for many possible roles, depending on futures. Should D10 or D11 have a major failure, D12 can be used to replace some or all of that capacity. Hopefully D12 will already have a replacement or spare in space at that time. 

Very common to have things launched to 101° that could be replaced and therefore moved to 110 or 119. So spares are builtin for multiple roles way out in the future.

So I think this is just future planning for just in case as well as flexibility for future movements.

Edit: To answer the Good or Bad news question, I think good--good that DIRECTV plans for future potential problems or for future flexibility. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> As worded I don't see it meaning either good or bad, but only minor technical corrections to their original LOA application to the FCC.
> 
> I am a little confused though about a portion of this information as to whether DIRECTV-12's spotbeams are intended to supplement DIRECTV-10 or meant to be a wholesale replacement with all 44 beams emanating from DIRECTV-12?
> 
> IOW, is DIRECTV-10 destined to become only a CONUS beam satellite with all it's spots eventually turned off?


I'm thinking that maybe Directv 10 and 12 can both use the same spotbeam selection (with different transponders) to provide additional channels within the same footprint. I believe they push multiple transponders through the same beam now, but there are a limited number of them available.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> I believe they push multiple transponders through the same beam now, but there are a limited number of them available.


I'm pretty sure they have to, from a practical perspective. There just aren't that many physical antennas on the satellite bus. And if you look at gct's LIL transponder maps (as well as your own receiver's signal strength meters), you can see that some cities require two or even three tp's worth of bandwidth for their locals. Even a medium-sized metro area like Nashville needs two.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I'm pretty sure they have to, from a practical perspective. There just aren't that many physical antennas on the satellite bus. And if you look at gct's LIL transponder maps (as well as your own receiver's signal strength meters), you can see that some cities require two or even three tp's worth of bandwidth for their locals. Even a medium-sized metro area like Nashville needs two.


That's true;

However, it is usually one transponder per spotbeam, and I've never seen any more than a maximum of two transponders assigned to one spotbeam. If a third transponder is needed for a particular DMA it comes from another spotbeam on the same or another satellite from what I've noticed so far.


----------



## LameLefty

Don't know if anyone (Sixto?) posted this yet, but it's a PDF version of the RB-2A Schedule S Technical Data (unlike the weird zipped up database file previously available). It lists where the five BSS spotbeams will be aimed.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=741433

The locations are Alaska, Seattle, Salt Lake City, El Paso, and Moxee WA.


----------



## bobnielsen

Actually, it's Moxee, WA (a metropolis of 2,525 persons) which is near Yakima.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Don't know if anyone (Sixto?) posted this yet, but it's a PDF version of the RB-2A Schedule S Technical Data (unlike the weird zipped up database file previously available). It lists where the five BSS spotbeams will be aimed.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=741433
> 
> The locations are Alaska, Seattle, Salt Lake City, El Paso, and Waxee WA.


Salt Lake? Cool! Where do I get the new equipment? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> Salt Lake? Cool! Where do I get the new equipment?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hopefully they will need a bunch of testers!


----------



## HoTat2

bobnielsen said:


> Actually, it's Moxee, WA (a metropolis of 2,525 persons) which is near Yakima.


I was just about to post that,  but as a reminder the application only list Moxee, WA. for the uplink facility. Officially DirecTV's "Northwest Uplink Facilty" (NWUF) and not a spotbeam location for a downlink beam.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Actually, it's Moxee, WA (a metropolis of 2,525 persons) which is near Yakima.


Yeah, typo on my part. I fixed it in my earlier post.


----------



## HoTat2

Of course my arrogant sense of entitlement is bothering me here again with this.  Here I am in Los Angeles and almost a stone's throw away from DirecTV's HQ and massive LABC complex, and I don't get one of those beams for potential testing and evaluation!


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> I was just about to post that,  but as a reminder the application only list Moxee, WA. for the uplink facility. Officially DirecTV's "Northwest Uplink Facilty" (NWUF) and not a spotbeam location for a downlink beam.


Yep, you're right. The third page lists Moxee as a "service area" but on the beam description page it shows it as an uplink beam, while the command and telemetry beams are listed as CONUS.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Of course my arrogant sense of entitlement is bothering me here again with this.  Here I am in Los Angeles and almost a stone's throw away from DirecTV's HQ and massive LABC complex, and I don't get one of those beams for potential testing and evaluation!


I bet they're aiming the SLC beam right at Tom's house. :lol:


----------



## evan_s

Assuming I am reading this correctly 
DL1 (alaska) has 18 transponders on the spot.

DL2 (Washington) has 18 transponders on its spot.

DL3 (Salt Lake) has only 10 transponders on it's spot.

DL4 (El Paso) has 18 transponders again.

The Source for all of them is the single uplink from the Moxee, WA facility.

Given that I think it is unlikely this is being used to provide channels for customers but more likely for back-hauling.

If it was just Alaska I could see it being used for some Alaska specific spot like Dish does but I can't see any reason for 18tps worth of spot capacity pointed at the other areas.


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> Assuming I am reading this correctly
> DL1 (alaska) has 18 transponders on the spot.
> 
> DL2 (Washington) has 18 transponders on its spot.
> 
> DL3 (Salt Lake) has only 10 transponders on it's spot.
> 
> DL4 (El Paso) has 18 transponders again.
> 
> The Source for all of them is the single uplink from the Moxee, WA facility.
> 
> Given that I think it is unlikely this is being used to provide channels for customers but more likely for back-hauling.
> 
> If it was just Alaska I could see it being used for some Alaska specific spot like Dish does but I can't see any reason for 18tps worth of spot capacity pointed at the other areas.


Actually Salt Lake has 18 as well. The last 8 are listed first. 

As soon as I'm able to talk about it, I'll be happy to post my experiences here for you all...

(Of course--I'll have to have some experiences with this first...)


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> Given that I think it is unlikely this is being used to provide channels for customers but more likely for back-hauling.


That's not at all what the BSS spectrum is licensed for. As I've pointed out before, using it for backhaul is not part of the FCC application at all. In fact, Directv specifically requests authorization of the RB-2A payload specifically to test BSS band direct-to-consumer service.


----------



## evan_s

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually Salt Lake has 18 as well. The last 8 are listed first.
> 
> As soon as I'm able to talk about it, I'll be happy to post my experiences here for you all...
> 
> (Of course--I'll have to have some experiences with this first...)


Your right. Really odd way to list them but they are all there.


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> That's not at all what the BSS spectrum is licensed for. As I've pointed out before, using it for backhaul is not part of the FCC application at all. In fact, Directv specifically requests authorization of the RB-2A payload specifically to test BSS band direct-to-consumer service.


Hmm, Does anyone happen to know where the international channels for 95 are uplinked from? That would actually fit the need for multiple TPs, would be a very limited test market in these particular areas and would still qualify as direct to customer service.


----------



## HoTat2

evan_s said:


> ... Given that I think it is unlikely this is being used to provide channels for customers but more likely for back-hauling.
> 
> If it was just Alaska I could see it being used for some Alaska specific spot like Dish does but I can't see any reason for 18tps worth of spot capacity pointed at the other areas.


Well, even though the beams are technically spotted evan_s I still think they may treat them as either collectively as a quasi-CONUS beam or maybe as regional ones, but regardless for the purpose of broadcast to subscribers instead of solely back-hauling services , which as LameLefty points out would not at all be in keeping with the mandates of their BSS license to provide DTH services to subscribers.

IIRC, I think it was stated in the RB-2A LOA application that it was divided into large spotbeams this way as a precaution to prevent possible interference with Canada.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So we know for sure that D12 is still launching, but we just don't know when, correct?


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> Hmm, Does anyone happen to know where the international channels for 95 are uplinked from? That would actually fit the need for multiple TPs, would be a very limited test market in these particular areas and would still qualify as direct to customer service.


Yeah I think something like this is exactly what Directv has in mind. I also suspect that they will simulcast the SD versions (and maybe the HD ones as well) of locals in these markets and distribute "BSS-aware" SWMs to test for a couple years before they incorporate BSS services more widely.


----------



## Tom Robertson

TheRatPatrol said:


> So we know for sure that D12 is still launching, but we just don't know when, correct?


Pretty much. We are even fairly certain the from where part.


----------



## HoTat2

BTW;

I don't really know why I didn't notice this before, but according to the recent document posted by LameLefty on the RB-2A package aboard DIRECTV-12, this system cannot be used to transmit LiLs what with only one uplink beam ("UL1") from the lone feeder ground station at Moxee, WA. (NWUF) servicing it.

Therefore all four downlink beams ("DL1," "DL2," "DL3," and "DL4") must simulcast the same information if indeed all 18 channels per downlink beam are to be made available.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> BTW;
> 
> I don't really know why I didn't notice this before, but according to the recent document posted by LameLefty on the RB-2A package aboard DIRECTV-12, this system cannot be used to transmit LiLs what with only one uplink beam ("UL1") from the lone feeder ground station at Moxee, WA. (NWUF) servicing it.
> 
> Therefore all four downlink beams ("DL1," "DL2," "DL3," and "DL4") must simulcast the same information if indeed all 18 channels per downlink beam are to be made available.


Interesting. I don't know enough about RF engineering to have figured out or noticed the details that led you to that conclusion. I guess that supports the idea that the RB-2A payload could be used for some specialized, niche programming - internationals, very specialized sports programming, Native American tribal programming (could be why all the markets are in Alaska and the west), a trial of direct-to-home high speed "faster than realtime" streaming of data to receivers for Directv Cinema, etc).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Salt Lake? Cool! Where do I get the new equipment?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom





bobnielsen said:


> Hopefully they will need a bunch of testers!


I suspect they will need to do some testing, and certainly there are plenty of "volunteers" here.


----------



## Gary Toma

LameLefty said:


> Don't know if anyone (Sixto?) posted this yet, but it's a PDF version of the RB-2A Schedule S Technical Data (unlike the weird zipped up database file previously available). It lists where the five BSS spotbeams will be aimed.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=741433
> 
> The locations are Alaska, Seattle, Salt Lake City, El Paso, and Moxee WA.


The beam patterns were posted *here *just the other day! Very interesting!


----------



## HoTat2

gct said:


> The beam patterns were posted *here *just the other day! Very interesting!


Yep, I figured as much;

Just as LameLefty suggested, the bore-sight of that Salt Lake City spotbeam is definitely directed at Tom's house. CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!


----------



## bobnielsen

The Seattle spotbeam is centered ~100 miles offshore. I wonder whose yacht is in the area?


----------



## woj027

gct said:


> The beam patterns were posted *here *just the other day! Very interesting!


Looking at the map for the Seattle location, it seems that Portland OR seems to fall in a higher power range. That is a pretty big spot covering Portland and Seattle.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

What do all those colors mean on the map?


----------



## LameLefty

woj027 said:


> Looking at the map for the Seattle location, it seems that Portland OR seems to fall in a higher power range. That is a pretty big spot covering Portland and Seattle.


All the spots are quite large. Directv explains in some of the supporting documentation that there are concerns with coordinating BSS-band transmissions with potential future Canadian-licensed providers. So rather than try to provide CONUS service in a way that gets to the U.S. border and abruptly stops, BSS services will be provided via spot-beams layed out in such a way as to (hopefully) minimize any overlap with Canadian providers and still cover the majority of the U.S. at some point.


----------



## LameLefty

TheRatPatrol said:


> What do all those colors mean on the map?


The colors represent the predicted signal power at ground level; this is explained further up that thread.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> Yep, I figured as much;
> 
> Just as LameLefty suggested, the bore-sight of that Salt Lake City spotbeam is definitely directed at Tom's house. CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!


Actually bore-sight is to the north and west, surprisingly. Salt Lake proper is at the lower part of the main lobe.

Top of the lobe is roughly between Boise and Helena.

The Salt lake DMA is the whole state, and the red zone seems to cover all the way down to St. George.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Gary Toma

bobnielsen said:


> The Seattle spotbeam is centered ~100 miles offshore. I wonder whose yacht is in the area?


The general rule is that up to the yellow isobar, you have good, viable reception. It looks to me like that the yellow isobar is right along the border. For what it's worth.........


----------



## inkahauts

LameLefty said:


> That's not at all what the BSS spectrum is licensed for. As I've pointed out before, using it for backhaul is not part of the FCC application at all. In fact, Directv specifically requests authorization of the RB-2A payload specifically to test BSS band direct-to-consumer service.


While all the speculation is valid and highly likely, I am wondering if they might also use some of this new bandwidth to provide all the sub channels... 18 transponders is about right for here in LA, and I'm guessing the same in a few other markets too.... and considering how many of these sat locations it looks like they are picking up... I would not be surprised if we didn't start to see some sub channels on these babies.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

inkahauts said:


> While all the speculation is valid and highly likely, I am wondering if they might also use some of this new bandwidth to provide all the sub channels... 18 transponders is about right for here in LA, and I'm guessing the same in a few other markets too.... and considering how many of these sat locations it looks like they are picking up... I would not be surprised if we didn't start to see some sub channels on these babies.


some of subs are nation wide.

also how about Chicago how many spots will we get over all when D-12 goes up 3-4?

will get all the missing HD 26-1 HD, 7.2 hd, 20 HD, 50 HD, ION HD, 44 HD.

and maybe even CLTV HD


----------



## man_rob

I remember a few months ago, in another thread, I was relentlessly attacked for suggesting that a Sept. '09 launch was rumor, and not actually scheduled yet. I was told that even though D12 wasn't showing on the schedule, there were detailed plans in place for a 9/09 launch. One poster said to me something along the lines of, "I'll accept your apologies when the satellite is launched." I have to say going back and re-reading the exchange was interesting, to say the least.


----------



## Sixto

man_rob said:


> I remember a few months ago, in another thread, I was relentlessly attacked for suggesting that a Sept. '09 launch was rumor, and not actually scheduled yet. I was told that even though D12 wasn't showing on the schedule, there were detailed plans in place for a 9/09 launch. One poster said to me something along the lines of, "I'll accept your apologies when the satellite is launched." I have to say going back and re-reading the exchange was interesting, to say the least.


Welcome to the discussion. Post#1 is continually updated with what we actually know.


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> Welcome to the discussion. Post#1 is continually updated with what we actually know.


As opposed to what some claimed to "actually know" a few months ago, and attacked me for questioning this "knowledge."


----------



## LameLefty

man_rob said:


> I remember a few months ago, in another thread, I was relentlessly attacked for suggesting that a Sept. '09 launch was rumor, and not actually scheduled yet. I was told that even though D12 wasn't showing on the schedule, there were detailed plans in place for a 9/09 launch. One poster said to me something along the lines of, "I'll accept your apologies when the satellite is launched." I have to say going back and re-reading the exchange was interesting, to say the least.


Nice to see that schtick never gets old for you. :lol:

Actually, if you were privy to some of the info some of us had gotten along the way since then, and if you ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION TO THE CONTENTS OF THIS THREAD, you'd see that circumstances have changed in the past couple months. Most notably, Eutelsat's needs are substantially more urgent than Directv's because their last satellite failed before it even became operational; the FCC approved the BSS band applications of a bunch of companies but has not yet approved the application to launch and operate the combined D12/RB-2A platform; and that money or the equivalent in promises has almost certainly changed hands amongst the interested parties (Eutelsat, Directv and ILS, in terms of D12; Intelsat, Pegasus, Echostar and Directv in terms of RB-2A and the various orbital slots approved, withdrawn, etc.).

<mod redaction>


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Actually, if you were privy to some of the info some of us had gotten along the way since then, and if you ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION TO THE CONTENTS OF THIS THREAD, you'd see that circumstances have changed in the past couple months.


Regardless of what happened with W7, Boeing apparently wasn't going to have D12 finished until October at the earliest. P Smith's report that D12 had flown out of Moffett was apparently "greatly exaggerated".

<mod redaction>

I'm reminded of previous launch threads where the satellites themselves were apparently blogging their progress.


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator Hat On>
Before this thread continues in places we don't want, I want everyone to take a breath.

This thread is not about who predicted what, when, or why back 6 months ago.

So please stick to what D12 will do and when it might launch.

I'm going to keep the thread closed just long enough for everyone to read this message, then please heed it.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Regardless of what happened with W7, Boeing apparently wasn't going to have D12 finished until October at the earliest. P Smith's report that D12 had flown out of Moffett was apparently "greatly exaggerated".


I wonder how much D12 was delayed by the FCC delay in announcing final BSS awards. Cuz D12 has had enough time to be completely built from scratch otherwise... 

And it makes me wonder what P Smith saw being shipped. Tho that might be something for a government agency we aren't supposed to know exists, much less that they have satellites... 


harsh said:


> I'm reminded of previous launch threads where the satellites themselves were apparently blogging their progress.


What? They were fun, cute, and they were good to have around. Perhaps they have another friend in the industry. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Smthkd

Tom I was thinking the same thing. D12 was scheduled to be built a few years ago along with D10 & 11. So the delay had to be due to the BSS modifications. Yet still, I would assume that the sat "is" built and Boeing is doing more testing to make sure nothing malfunctions before sending this badboy into geo. orbit.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Smthkd said:


> Tom I was thinking the same thing. D12 was scheduled to be built a few years ago along with D10 & 11. So the delay had to be due to the BSS modifications. Yet still, I would assume that the sat "is" built and Boeing is doing more testing to make sure nothing malfunctions before sending this badboy into geo. orbit.


I join your view (and Tom's) of seeing the project this way...


----------



## man_rob

Originally D12 was announced as an on ground spare. It still has yet to get an official launch date.


----------



## bobnielsen

Smthkd said:


> Tom I was thinking the same thing. D12 was scheduled to be built a few years ago along with D10 & 11. So the delay had to be due to the BSS modifications. Yet still, I would assume that the sat "is" built and Boeing is doing more testing to make sure nothing malfunctions before sending this badboy into geo. orbit.


In addition to BSS, there have been modifications to allow it to transmit the CONUS transponders using the Ka-high band rather than Ka-low, which is used by D10 and D11.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> Originally D12 was announced as an on ground spare. It still has yet to get an official launch date.


Um... Ok. Your point is?

We have lots of filings that show it no longer is a ground spare. 

What is an official launch date? They are all estimates, public or private, until the candle is lit.


----------



## man_rob

Tom Robertson said:


> Um... Ok. Your point is?
> 
> We have lots of filings that show it no longer is a ground spare.
> 
> What is an official launch date? They are all estimates, public or private, until the candle is lit.


I'm not saying it's still a ground spare. While they have plans to launch it at some point, they don't appear feel any urgency to do so.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

man_rob said:


> I'm not saying it's still a ground spare. While they have plans to launch it at some point, they don't appear feel any urgency to do so.




They have publically announced the increase in capacity with D12, meaning they have set market expectations to have that available in the near term.

They also have the formal documentation submitted to launch, and spent millions to get it up there. It also costs them lost revenue NOT to have D12 in place, as it will help sell more subscribers.

With the changes on D12's configuration....proper testing must be done - they can't send the Maytag repair man up there once its launched....just ask Dish.

That would sound pretty urgent to most people.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> I'm not saying it's still a ground spare. While they have plans to launch it at some point, they don't appear feel any urgency to do so.


What constitutes urgency?

They've filed with the FCC.
We've seen indications of it being on launch manifests.

And the FCC filings have made it clear they couldn't launch the BSS package without a BSS award finalization from the FCC.

Lastly, how does one hurry up a satellite launch?


----------



## smiddy

So we're still awaiting an FCC decision? I'll have to see if I can find anything out from the spectrum office.


----------



## Tom Robertson

smiddy said:


> So we're still awaiting an FCC decision? I'll have to see if I can find anything out from the spectrum office.


At this point, I don't think the FCC is a bottleneck. They seem to be able to informally approve things "just in time".

I suspect the only "hold up" is how fast the plane flies to Baikunor and how quickly D12 can work thru the pipeline. 

That said, anything you find out will be very interesting! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

First it was a ground spare. Then it was supposed to be launched in Sept. '09. Just like it wasn't really scheduled for a Sept launch, at this point, it's still not scheduled for a launch. DirecTV is doing fine in terms of subscribers and business. Wouldn't surprise me if they push this off until 1Q next year. Well, only time will tell.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> First it was a ground spare. Then it was supposed to be launched in Sept. '09. Just like it wasn't really scheduled for a Sept launch, at this point, it's still not scheduled for a launch. DirecTV is doing fine in terms of subscribers and business. Wouldn't surprise me if they push this off until 1Q next year. Well, only time will tell.


Do you have any information to back up the two statements you make regarding launch status? Don't be fooled by unofficial launch watchers as to if or when a satellite is scheduled for launch. 

All satellite launch dates are targets, flexed by event. Official and unofficial dates. At one point, there was a target of September. There might have even been earlier targets at some point, but I have no information about those.

The last "official" target would be the FCC filings showing October 14-November 14. And we suspect those as unlikely. But they are official. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

Tom Robertson said:


> Do you have any information to back up the two statements you make regarding launch status? Don't be fooled by unofficial launch watchers as to if or when a satellite is scheduled for launch.
> 
> All satellite launch dates are targets, flexed by event. Official and unofficial dates. At one point, there was a target of September. There might have even been earlier targets at some point, but I have no information about those.
> 
> The last "official" target would be the FCC filings showing October 14-November 14. And we suspect those as unlikely. But they are official.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You know, a few months ago, when I suggested that the Sept. date was a target, and not a firm date. I was raked over the coals for it. I said the launch hasn't actually been scheduled, and I was angrily told that the launch is set! They have a plan laid out at both Boeing and DirecTV, etc.

The launch still isn't scheduled.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> You know, a few months ago, when I suggested that the Sept. date was a target, and not a firm date. I was raked over the coals for it. I said the launch hasn't actually been scheduled, and I was angrily told that the launch is set! They have a plan laid out at both Boeing and DirecTV, etc.
> 
> The launch still isn't scheduled.


So how does one prove it isn't scheduled? Lack of evidence is not evidence...


----------



## man_rob

Tom Robertson said:


> So how does one prove it isn't scheduled? Lack of evidence is not evidence...


ILS has yet to announce it.

Cue in the same arguments when I said the same thing about the Sept. Launch date in 3..2..1..


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> ILS has yet to announce it.
> 
> Cue in the same arguments when I said the same thing about the Sept. Launch date in 3..2..1..


They only "announce" the next one. But many are scheduled...

Lack of evidence is still not evidence... (evidently you forget this?)


----------



## man_rob

Tom Robertson said:


> They only "announce" the next one. But many are scheduled...
> 
> Lack of evidence is still not evidence... (evidently you forget this?)


You are incorrect. They have announced multiple launches in the past, sometimes months ahead of time.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> You are incorrect. They have announced multiple launches in the past, sometimes months ahead of time.


The announce who is signed. They don't announce launch dates.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

man_rob said:


> ILS has yet to announce it.
> 
> Cue in the same arguments when I said the same thing about the Sept. Launch date in 3..2..1..


*Lets get real here.*

DirecTV knows exactly when they are set to launch D12.

Just because they didn't call you or someone else to let you personally know, or publish it in the New York Times...doesn't mean that it's not carefully planned and actually scheduled.

These things cost millions of dollars, and they don't play "heads or tails" to determine the specifics. Hundreds of people are involved, and likely meet no less than daily to review statuses, etc.

As Tom correctly pointed out - just because it isn't published at some place most folks can see it, doesn't mean things are not proceeding. Thinking anything different is simply naive.


----------



## P Smith

Who is watching Moffett Federal Airfield runways now ?  I can see a jet only if it take off ...


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would sound pretty urgent to most people.


Spending money is something they are going to have to do at some point. We know this as necessity as opposed to urgency. Urgency would have been to skip the testing payload and get the bird into orbit.

That DIRECTV apparently gave up their place in the ILS launch queue suggests a certain _lack_ of urgency.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As Tom correctly pointed out - just because it isn't published at some place most folks can see it, doesn't mean things are not proceeding. Thinking anything different is simply naive.


The assertion that DIRECTV can unilaterally declare a specific launch date and time is silly. ILS (and ultimately the weather) has significant influence on the launch date determination.

Additionally, all of this depends on Boeing actually delivering the bird; something that is largely _not_ under DIRECTV control and most often behind schedule. There's also the launch vehicle manufacturer, Khrunichev, to consider.


----------



## sigma1914

I think some people, especially one, reallllllly wants to see D12 go up late.


----------



## LameLefty

sigma1914 said:


> I think some people, especially one, reallllllly wants to see D12 go up late.


Gee, you think? Some usernames are pretty descriptive, no? :lol: The "Ignore" feature is really handy.

* * * *

Back on topic, some months ago, not long after the September estimate was first listed, a little bird tweeted to some people that that date was inaccurate and December, specifically around Christmas time, was a better date. Other sources, specifically the ones that listed September on another website, stated that they had not heard the little bird tweeting, and left September as a proposed date, all the way until the FCC paperwork came out in August showing a satellite completion date of mid-October. Subsequent events with Eutelsat moving to the front of the queue at ILS seem to confirm the little bird's wintry tweeting.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> Gee, you think? Some usernames are pretty descriptive, no? :lol: The "Ignore" feature is really handy.


I had forgotten about that feature, thanks for the reminder


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> The assertion that DIRECTV can unilaterally declare a specific launch date and time is silly. ILS (and ultimately the weather) has significant influence on the launch date determination.
> 
> Additionally, all of this depends on Boeing actually delivering the bird; something that is largely _not_ under DIRECTV control and most often behind schedule. There's also the launch vehicle manufacturer, Khrunichev, to consider.


I could also make a case than repeated negative assertions by any Dish subscriber who has no vested interest or personal benefit in seeing D12 launch is silly....but I won't.

Like it or not folks...D12 is alive, well, and getting ready to add more HD at DirecTV.


jefbal99 said:


> I had forgotten about that feature, thanks for the reminder


A handy feature indeed.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I could also make a case than repeated negative assertions by any Dish subscriber who has no vested interest or personal benefit in seeing D12 launch is silly....but I won't.


I think that expectations need to be a whole lot more realistic than the oft-repeated "DIRECTV knows to the second when D12 is going to launch and that's that" line of reasoning.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I could also make a case than repeated negative assertions by any Dish subscriber who has no vested interest or personal benefit in seeing D12 launch is silly....but I won't.
> 
> Like it or not folks...D12 is alive, well, and getting ready to add more HD at DirecTV.


Worse than that . . . not only no vested interest or personal benefit, but no actual personal knowledge of spacecraft design, construction, operation or licensing, let alone post-launch orbital mechanics and satellite checkout procedures.

But hey, anyone can drop a few buzzwords on an internet forum and sound like an expert to people who don't know better.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Worse than that . . . not only no vested interest or personal benefit, but no actual personal knowledge of spacecraft design, construction, operation or licensing, let alone post-launch orbital mechanics and satellite checkout procedures.


So you've never represented a client that specialized in something that you hadn't previously been professionally involved in?

For someone who practices in a profession so deeply involved in applying precedent, I'm surprised that you're so willing to discount others who would.

I'm also surprised that my interest in satellites and other space stuff could be so effectively negated by the idea that I don't subscribe to DIRECTV.


----------



## Sixto

Let's please, please, get back to D12.

All personal stuff should be via PM.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> I think that expectations need to be a whole lot more realistic than the oft-repeated "DIRECTV knows to the second when D12 is going to launch and that's that" line of reasoning.


Its still a fact.

Just because the details aren't found in public places doesn't mean that they don't exist. This has been repeated at nauseum, yet a few people here still insist on debating the unknown.

Let's get back to the business at hand - D12.

Sixto and Lefty are doing an outstanding job of keeping folks at DBSTalk informed about what D12 is all about, as well as any filings or *available* information - and in far better condition and detail than any other place.

Thanks to them for their continued information.


----------



## PackCat

<inappropriate content redacted>

But seriously, if NASA can give us all the possible launch times, say for rain in Florida, and when it will be rescheduled if it falls outside the window... You'd think the Russians could figure out a tentative satellite launch..


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> I think that expectations need to be a whole lot more realistic than the oft-repeated "DIRECTV knows to the second when D12 is going to launch and that's that" line of reasoning.


NO ONE has made this assertion. More FUD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PackCat said:


> <inappropriate content redacted>
> 
> But seriously, if NASA can give us all the possible launch times, say for rain in Florida, and when it will be rescheduled if it falls outside the window... You'd think the Russians could figure out a tentative satellite launch..


Its not a matter of it existing, its a matter of making it public - and when that is done.

For a variety of reasons, none the least of which are security-related....they won't make this public until a short time prior.

Some people translate that common practice to mean "it won't happen" or "it is delayed"...but that's not the case, and I suspect those naysayers actually know that.


----------



## LameLefty

PackCat said:


> <inappropriate content redacted>
> 
> But seriously, if NASA can give us all the possible launch times, say for rain in Florida, and when it will be rescheduled if it falls outside the window... You'd think the Russians could figure out a tentative satellite launch..


What makes you think they haven't? Just because it's not posted on website somewhere?

Let me ask you a not-so-hypothetical question? Have you ever seen the milestone charts for a spacecraft production and launch schedule? I have. Depending on the level of detail (whether you're talking only Tier 1 or all the way down in the guts Tier 4 or 5), when printed out and posted they generally fill every square inch of wall space for a large conference room and cover a time frame of years. Slips at any single step may or may not have an impact on the top-level Tier 1 dates.

But I guarantee you there are people who know to the second when the tentative launch date is. That doesn't mean that date can't change between now and then, but the people who need to know it DO know it, plan toward it, and work toward it. As events warrant, those dates and times can change, but don't expect the PAO for a commercial launch provider to be at your beck and call and give you details on every planned launch just because you want them.


----------



## harsh

PackCat said:


> But seriously, if NASA can give us all the possible launch times, say for rain in Florida, and when it will be rescheduled if it falls outside the window... You'd think the Russians could figure out a tentative satellite launch..


Compare the number of launches performed at Baikonur alone with the number of launches that NASA facilitates and you'll start to understand.

That said, if you look at the Soyuz launches, they have dates more than two years in advance.

Launch dates of the large communications satellites are often posted _after_ they are delivered to Baikonur.


----------



## harsh

raoul5788 said:


> NO ONE has made this assertion.


From post #241:


> DirecTV knows exactly when they are set to launch D12.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> From post #241:


...and it remains a true statement....


----------



## LameLefty

And the ball slowly continues rolling toward D12/RB-2A . . .

Directv yesterday filed an application for permission to operate a ground station for BSS satellite operations:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAppPDF?attachment_key=744718

And some more paperwork related to D12/RB-2A itself . . .

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-293803A1.pdf

The RF engineers can explain those (everyone else - and you know who you are) please keep quiet and let them do so.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> And the ball slowly continues rolling toward D12/RB-2A . . .
> 
> Directv yesterday filed an application for permission to operate a ground station for BSS satellite operations:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAppPDF?attachment_key=744718


Yep, was looking through the links yesterday and wasn't much detail other then the application and the radiation analysis. Didn't see the usual PDF with more details.


----------



## LameLefty

Actually, upon re-reading, it looks as though the second link I provided is merely a notice from the FCC that the earlier-filed D12 and RB-2A applications have now been reviewed and deemed acceptable. I expect we'll see a launch-and-operate authority notice a week or two prior to launch; this might come sooner, however, given Eutelsat's jump forward in the launch queue at ILS.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Actually, upon re-reading, it looks as though the second link I provided is merely a notice from the FCC that the earlier-filed D12 and RB-2A applications have now been reviewed and deemed acceptable. I expect we'll see a launch-and-operate authority notice a week or two prior to launch; this might come sooner, however, given Eutelsat's jump forward in the launch queue at ILS.


Yep, I need to go back and look but thought that there was some minor geographic and cross-polarization stuff but nothing much more.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep, I need to go back and look but thought that there was some minor geographic and cross-polarization stuff but nothing much more.


I believe those specific partial-waiver requests are contained in the original applications and/or the "clarification letters" filed previously - feel free to go back and check, and do keep an eye on the FCC for the next week, won't you? I intend to be doing not much more than a whole lot of reading, lying on the beach and drinking beer next week on vacation.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I believe those specific partial-waiver requests are contained in the original applications and/or the "clarification letters" filed previously - feel free to go back and check, and do keep an eye on the FCC for the next week, won't you? I intend to be doing not much more than a whole lot of reading, lying on the beach and drinking beer next week on vacation.


Will do. Enjoy!


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> I believe those specific partial-waiver requests are contained in the original applications and/or the "clarification letters" filed previously - feel free to go back and check, and do keep an eye on the FCC for the next week, won't you? I intend to be doing not much more than a whole lot of reading, lying on the beach and drinking beer next week on vacation.


Get 3G so you can "read" DBStalk.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Get 3G so you can "read" DBStalk.


We have wifi at the condo but I don't expect to be posting much.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> We have wifi at the condo but I don't expect to be posting much.


You're tempting us.....


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You're tempting us.....


Hey, there's an app for that! (And I have it on my iPhone ).


----------



## n3ntj

Do we have an idea yet when D12 will be launched?


----------



## Tom Robertson

n3ntj said:


> Do we have an idea yet when D12 will be launched?


Likely no earlier than October 14 (based on FCC filings). Realistically, since ILS is listing another satellite first, D12 won't be earlier than Dec. And hopefully no later than late December. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

n3ntj said:


> Do we have an idea yet when D12 will be launched?


ALWAYS check the first post in this thread: Sixto updates it with all relevant info as soon as he (or I or Tom or whomever) digs it up.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Actually, upon re-reading, it looks as though the second link I provided is merely a notice from the FCC that the earlier-filed D12 and RB-2A applications have now been reviewed and deemed acceptable. I expect we'll see a launch-and-operate authority notice a week or two prior to launch; this might come sooner, however, given Eutelsat's jump forward in the launch queue at ILS.


Lefty,

Yep, just looked at it again and you're exactly right.

Status is now *Accepted for Filing Public Notice*
Accepted For Filing PN Date: *10/02/2009*

Also, all of the other DirecTV Filing's have been granted today. D12/RB-2A are now the only outstanding items.


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> From post #241:


Okay, I'll modify my statement. *Some* have made that assertion, but no one *on this board* knows for certain exactly when D12 will launch. *More FUD on your part.*


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Umm in *layman's terms*, what exactly is RB-2A?


----------



## HoTat2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Umm in *layman's terms*, what exactly is RB-2A?


Stands for "Reverse Band" version "2A," refers to the radio package aboard D12 for the new BSS satellite band.

From Page 1 posted by Sixto--

D12 RB-2A:

Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 103°
Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range, with a new LNB expected/required
"This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

HoTat2 said:


> Stands for "Reverse Band" version "2A," refers to the radio package aboard D12 for the new BSS satellite band.
> 
> From Page 1 posted by Sixto--
> 
> D12 RB-2A:
> 
> Named RB-2A for "BSS" payload on D12
> 18 transponders (TP1-TP18) of spot beam bandwidth for "niche services" from 103°
> Supporting 4 spot beams to the "western U.S."
> Within the BSS (17345-17700 MHz) frequency range, with a new LNB expected/required
> "This payload will allow DirecTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band".


radio package? you mean like more XM/Sirius type channels?


----------



## HoTat2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> radio package? you mean like more XM/Sirius type channels?


No, I'm referring to the specific RF system of 18 physical BSS transponders and it's ancillary equipment loaded on D12 as the "radio package." Not any of the programming that will eventually be relayed by those transponders which is still yet to be determined.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

HoTat2 said:


> No, I'm referring to the specific RF system of 18 physical BSS transponders and it's ancillary equipment loaded on D12 as the "radio package." Not any of the programming that will eventually be relayed by those transponders which is still yet to be determined.


I still have no idea what you're talking about but I guess I won't until I go earn my doctorate in electrical engineering.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Umm in *layman's terms*, what exactly is RB-2A?


D10 (103°) and D11 (99°) use the Ka-Lo frequency range (18.3GHz-18.8GHz) to transmit video into the home.

Spaceway-1 (103°) and Spaceway-2 (99°) use the Ka-Hi frequency range (19.7GHz-20.2GHz) to transmit video into the home.

D12 will use Ka-Hi for national HD channels, and Ka-Lo for LiL HD. D12 will share Ka-Hi with Spaceway-1, and share Ka-Lo with D10.

In layman's terms, BSS is just another frequency range (17.3GHz-17.7GHz). It's a newly authorized frequency range that hasn't been used before for national video.

The D12 satellite will have a special package aboard, called RB-2A, that will transmit in this new BSS frequency range (17.3GHz-17.7GHz).

In summary, D12 will do Ka-Hi for national, Ka-Lo for LiL, and use the RB-2A transponders (BSS) for testing new services (which haven't been defined yet).


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> D10 (103°) and D11 (99°) use the Ka-Lo frequency range (18.3GHz-18.8GHz) to transmit video into the home.
> 
> Spaceway-1 (103°) and Spaceway-2 (99°) use the Ka-Hi frequency range (19.7GHz-20.2GHz) to transmit video into the home.
> 
> D12 will use Ka-Hi for national HD channels, and Ka-Lo for LiL HD. D12 will share Ka-Hi with Spaceway-1, and share Ka-Lo with D10.
> 
> In layman's terms, BSS is just another frequency range (17.3GHz-17.7GHz). It's a newly authorized frequency range that hasn't been used before for national video.
> 
> The D12 satellite will have a special package aboard, called RB-2A, that will transmit in the BSS frequency range.
> 
> In summary, D12 will do Ka-Hi for national, Ka-Lo for LiL, and use the RB-2A transponders (BSS) for testing new services (which haven't been defined yet).


Anyone got any guesses what the "new services" could be?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Anyone got any guesses what the "new services" could be?


Our only information is from the FCC Filing:"the payload will allow DIRECTV to begin providing commercial service in the 17/24 GHz BSS band before any other satellite operator in the world, making use of these valuable spectrum/orbital resources mere months after receiving its first license in the band. Though DIRECTV will not be able to provide nationwide service from this payload, it will be able to provide niche services to portions of the country immediately, and will be able to use the lessons learned from that service in the design and construction of more robust next-generation 17/24 GHz BSS satellites at this and other locations in the future."

"The downlink coverage will be distributed among four downlink spot beams in the western United States."​


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I still have no idea what you're talking about but I guess I won't until I go earn my doctorate in electrical engineering.


The Radio Frequencies are broken up into many bands. Partially based upon their suitability, the bands are allocated for uses by the US and world governing bodies: FCC and ITU.

The first satellite band was the C-band. Very nice for satellite to home tho the properties of the wavelengths meant larger dishs and they could (in theory) only put satellites relatively widely spaced apart.

Next the Ku bands (K-band, under) were approved. With more powerful satellites, very small dishes could be used at the home. Woohoo! 

At first, the too had to be widely spaced, originally about 9° between them. As the satellites, dishes, and Low Noise Amplifiers all improved, Ku now can be 4.5° between with minimal interference.

For each band of frequencies, there is a set of frequencies for sending data to the satellite and set for the satellite to send back to the home.

Next came the Ka bands (K-band, above--a higher frequency band). The Ka bands are closer to the microwave frequencies. Which is important in that water drops will absorb more of the signal than either the C-band or Ku-band frequencies.

So the dish needs to be larger, the LNB better, and much better aligned to get a strong signal. Thankfully the satellites can therefore be closer together. Giving us more satellite orbital slots. Woohoo...

Now someone asked, what if we use the Ku band uplink frequencies to also downlink to the home? Can we find a way that doesn't interfere either on the ground (near an uplink center) or in space at the satellites. In other words, reversing the "band". (They assigned another new frequency band for this reverse band's uplink.)

Turns out it works.  This has become the BSS bands or Reverse bands or... lots of names.  The FCC just this summer allocated the orbital slots for the BSS bands, DIRECTV got 4(?) (Check post #1.) When an orbital slot is awarded, the awardee has 5 years to build and launch a satellite. And they have to put up $3M as a deposit that they will launch. As they meet milestones, parts of the deposit are returned.

DIRECTV knew they were going to get some awards. And had a good inkling at least one of them would be at 99° or 103°, based on the interim proposals the FCC was announcing. So they added a set of transponders, dishes, and electronics, the RB-2A package, to D12. Mildly gutsy, but it paid off. 

So when D12 launches, it will be the very first US satellite to utilize the new band of frequencies. Perhaps by several years, unless someone else has been building a satellite in hopes they get an award. 

Because this is a new set of frequencies, yup, there will be new LNBs, possibly switches, etc. to be worked out. I think most of the more recent receivers can use the new satellite locations (with a software upgrade, most likely.

In the first couple posts, Sixto, Lamelefty, and gct have done a fantastic job keeping us updated on all the events. And the locations of the first areas that D12's BSS package will serve. They won't be National, but rather 4 western regions. Perhaps mostly as a test for DIRECTV, perhaps for whole new services in those areas. I'm in the Salt Lake area to be served--so I'm very curious what will be coming soon. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I still have no idea what you're talking about but I guess I won't until I go earn my doctorate in electrical engineering.


It would seem to be mostly a proof of concept setup to test theories about using a different frequency band.


----------



## RobertE

harsh said:


> It would seem to be mostly a proof of concept setup to test theories about using a different frequency band.


That was done with the BSS package on D11.


----------



## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> The Radio Frequencies are broken up into many bands [...]
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom - I've been following the D12 threads all along, but this post was incredibly helpful to me, and I think it would be great if this was added at the start of the thread! Thanks so much for posting this! :up:


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> It would seem to be mostly a proof of concept setup to test theories about using a different frequency band.


Of course this answer is wrong, but that's nothing new.

Harsh's posts seem to be mostly a "proof of concept" to test theories about how much misinformation a DISH subscriber can post in the DirecTV threads.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Tom - I've been following the D12 threads all along, but this post was incredibly helpful to me, and I think it would be great if this was added at the start of the thread! Thanks so much for posting this! :up:


Agree...learned alot from this one post....deserves to be out front.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> Tom - I've been following the D12 threads all along, but this post was incredibly helpful to me, and I think it would be great if this was added at the start of the thread! Thanks so much for posting this! :up:





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agree...learned alot from this one post....deserves to be out front.


Danged impressive explanation of how it works...almost a sticky by itself. 

Mike


----------



## HoTat2

MicroBeta said:


> Danged impressive explanation of how it works...almost a sticky by itself.
> 
> Mike


+1 here on Tom's post as well, I doubt if even Bill Nye the science guy could of explained it better in layman terms for virtually anyone to understand the concepts involved here.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

HoTat2 said:


> +1 here on Tom's post as well, I doubt if even Bill Nye the science guy could of explained it better in layman terms for virtually anyone to understand the concepts involved here.


Maybe he is Bill Nye. :eek2:


----------



## rnitz

Help me out guys - I'm having a hard time seeing quick utilization of the reverse band payload. Do any existing subscribers have an LNB that can receive the RB frequencies (17.3 to 17.7 GHz) ?

It seems like the regular D-12 payload can be directly used by most everyone with Ka-band antennas/LNBs (so more HD can be added immediately  ), but won't they have to retrofit subscribers' antenna/LNBs to make use the RB band?


----------



## Sixto

rnitz said:


> Help me out guys - I'm having a hard time seeing quick utilization of the reverse band payload. Do any existing subscribers have an LNB that can receive the RB frequencies (17.3 to 17.7 GHz) ?
> 
> It seems like the regular D-12 payload can be directly used by most everyone with Ka-band antennas/LNBs (so more HD can be added immediately  ), but won't they have to retrofit subscribers' antenna/LNBs to make use the RB band?


Yes, we believe that a new LNB will be required for BSS.

But the full blown BSS sats are 2-3 years away.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yes, we believe that a new LNB will be required for BSS.
> 
> But the full blown BSS sats are 2-3 years away.


To be honest, I bet it will be longer than that, my friend. I'm guessing 3 - 4 years at least.


----------



## harsh

RobertE said:


> That was done with the BSS package on D11.


Serving four somewhat adjacent spotbeams with a single uplink isn't exactly a large scale deployment but it would seem to test viability of a production spotbeam arrangement.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> Serving four somewhat adjacent spotbeams with a single uplink isn't exactly a large scale deployment but it would seem to test viability of a production spotbeam arrangement.


Wrong as usual. Despite you pretending to be privy to what "viability" has and hasn't been proven with the D11 tests, the fact is that it's no longer in the test phase. The FCC is awarding and licensing the orbital slots for full commercial use of the spectrum. DirecTV and other DBS satellite providers aren't paying 3 million dollars for those licenses because someone thinks that they might be able to use them after some further testing. The technology has been tested, approved, and licensed for full production use.

Rather than trying to pretend that DirecTV isn't very soon going to be the first to use the newly FCC approved spectrum for DBS broadcasts to their subscribers, may I suggest that you scurry on over to the forums of _your_ satellite provider (DISH) and discuss when they might be in a position to also make full production use of the BSS band spectrum.


----------



## HoTat2

harsh said:


> *Serving four somewhat adjacent spotbeams *with a single uplink isn't exactly a large scale deployment but it would seem to test viability of a production spotbeam arrangement.


The four spotbeams are also not "somewhat adjacent," but are pretty fairly separated on three cities (Salt Lake City, UT., El Paso, TX., Seattle, WA.) and the state of Alaska in the western part of the U.S.

As they must be to prevent co-channel interference, since all the served areas, at least according to the latest FCC documentation, will be using the same 18 downlink transponder frequencies and polarities.


----------



## Sixto

Cool stuff ... was wondering if they'd re-use that D11 BSS payload ... the answer is yes!

Today's Filing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-181760​


----------



## RobertE

Sixto said:


> Cool stuff ... was wondering if they'd re-use that D11 BSS payload ... the answer is yes!
> 
> Today's Filing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-181760​


I other words, "Smoke'em if you got'em" :alterhase

It makes sense, why let the payload go to waste when they can finalize the uplink center and be ready (or closer to ready) to go when D12 arrives on station.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> Cool stuff ... was wondering if they'd re-use that D11 BSS payload ... the answer is yes!
> 
> Today's Filing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-181760​


"the launch of another, more capable 17/24 GHz BSS payload (referred to as DIRECTV RB2-A) is scheduled for later this year."

Well that narrows it down to " by end of Q4"

When I read the paragraph that quote from, I get the impression that they were hoping to have RB2-A already launched, and the testing would have been done with RB2-A not D11.


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> "the launch of another, more capable 17/24 GHz BSS payload (referred to as DIRECTV RB2-A) is scheduled for later this year."
> 
> Well that narrows it down to " by end of Q4"
> 
> When I read the paragraph that quote from, I get the impression that they were hoping to have RB2-A already launched, and the testing would have been done with RB2-A not D11.


And the key word in the today's official FCC Filing is "scheduled" ... not planned or maybe or possibly ... "scheduled" 

Can always change, and it's always a matter of semantics, but nice to see "is scheduled for later this year".


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Cool stuff ... was wondering if they'd re-use that D11 BSS payload ... the answer is yes!
> 
> Today's Filing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-181760​


So if I'm understanding this STA request correctly, DirecTV wants to temporarily reuse the experimental BSS band package aboard D11 for testing and evaluation of the uplink dish antenna and ancillary equipment at Moxee, WA. that is constructed to service the RB-2A package on D12 which is to be launched later this year (hopefully)?

(Or per this document is it actually called "RB2-A"  )

Anyone also got a link (if any) to the technical data on that D11 BSS package? As I can't remember it and I'm certainly too lazy these days to go crawling through all the past lengthy D11 launch threads to try and locate it. :sure:


----------



## HoTat2

woj027 said:


> ...When I read the paragraph that quote from, I get the impression that they were hoping to have RB2-A already launched, *and the testing would have been done with RB2-A not D11.*


I think you meant the testing (for the Moxee, WA. earth station anyway) would have been done with D11 and not RB2-A


----------



## woj027

HoTat2 said:


> I think you meant the testing (for the Moxee, WA. earth station anyway) would have been done with D11 and not RB2-A


No that's how I meant to write it. I am inferring (yes I know it's a bad thing sometimes) but I am inferring that DirecTV hoped to have D12/RB2-A up already and they would be using it to test the faciltiy, but because of whatever delays (real or not) they want to use D11 to test until D12/RB2-A is up and working.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> So if I'm understanding this STA request correctly, DirecTV wants to temporarily reuse the experimental BSS band package aboard D11 for testing and evaluation of the uplink dish antenna and ancillary equipment at Moxee, WA. that is constructed to service the RB-2A package on D12 which is to be launched later this year (hopefully)?
> 
> (Or per this document is it actually called "RB2-A"  )
> 
> Anyone also got a link (if any) to the technical data on that D11 BSS package? As I can't remember it and I'm certainly too lazy these days to go crawling through all the past lengthy D11 launch threads to try and locate it. :sure:


Yes.

All the D11 links are in the 2nd post here:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123236​


----------



## rey_1178

Sixto said:


> And the key word in the today's official FCC Filing is "scheduled" ... not planned or maybe or possibly ... "scheduled"
> 
> Can always change, and it's always a matter of semantics, but nice to see "is scheduled for later this year".


oh that's great to hear.


----------



## Laker44

Sixto said:


> Yes.
> 
> All the D11 links are in the 2nd post here:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123236​


Looking at the D11 links.It looks like we're looking at receiving new channels approximately 4 1/2 months after D12 is launched.Noticed D11 was launched on 3/19/08 and the new channels started transmitting as test channels on 7/28/08.

Has that been there usual pattern after launching a satellite,for it to start transmitting 4 -5 months after being launched?


----------



## Sixto

Laker44 said:


> Looking at the D11 links.It looks like we're looking at receiving new channels approximately 4 1/2 months after D12 is launched.Noticed D11 was launched on 3/19/08 and the new channels started transmitting as test channels on 7/28/08.
> 
> Has that been there usual pattern after launching a satellite,for it to start transmitting 4 -5 months after being launched?


Post#3 in that thread has the D10 and D11 comparison. D11 took much longer because of the BSS testing.

D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.

D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.


----------



## harsh

Back on July 28th (the same day D* got spanked for trying to transfer their 107W application to Pegasus), the FCC approved an ATL for RB-2. In what way, if any, does this differ from RB-2A?


----------



## Laker44

Sixto said:


> Post#3 in that thread has the D10 and D11 comparison. D11 took much longer because of the BSS testing.
> 
> D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.
> 
> D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.


Thanks for information.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Post#3 in that thread has the D10 and D11 comparison. D11 took much longer because of the BSS testing.
> 
> D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.
> 
> D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.


Thanks to Sixto & LameLefty for the updated information, details on D12, and summary data.


----------



## QuickDrop

Sixto said:


> Post#3 in that thread has the D10 and D11 comparison. D11 took much longer because of the BSS testing.
> 
> D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.
> 
> D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.


Impossible for you to answer, I know, but how much do you think the new requested testing for D11 might shorten the presumed tests on D12 once in orbit? This new batch of D11 testing seems like it could be the result of the delay for launching D12 and D* is trying to get as much done without D12 being there so it can go "live" relatively close to their original target date--assuming it does launch by the end of the year, of course.


----------



## Sixto

QuickDrop said:


> Impossible for you to answer, I know, but how much do you think the new requested testing for D11 might shorten the presumed tests on D12 once in orbit? This new batch of D11 testing seems like it could be the result of the delay for launching D12 and D* is trying to get as much done without D12 being there so it can go "live" relatively close to their original target date--assuming it does launch by the end of the year, of course.


Could be.

Also, D11 was more complicated because it was moved to a special location just to test the BSS package. May not be necessary for D12. The D11 thread link above has all the dates for the various phases of the D11 testing.


----------



## evan_s

QuickDrop said:


> Impossible for you to answer, I know, but how much do you think the new requested testing for D11 might shorten the presumed tests on D12 once in orbit? This new batch of D11 testing seems like it could be the result of the delay for launching D12 and D* is trying to get as much done without D12 being there so it can go "live" relatively close to their original target date--assuming it does launch by the end of the year, of course.


The new testing is specifically for the BSS package. We don't know what that will be used for but it won't be the new national channels. It could be used for some new locals but i doubt it. I don't think this testing will affect the use of the Ka conus channels at all.


----------



## HoTat2

QuickDrop said:


> Impossible for you to answer, I know, but how much do you think the new requested testing for D11 might shorten the presumed tests on D12 once in orbit? This new batch of D11 testing seems like it could be the result of the delay for launching D12 and D* is trying to get as much done without D12 being there so it can go "live" relatively close to their original target date--assuming it does launch by the end of the year, of course.


The purpose of the testing is not really for D11 per se, but it does involve the use of it's experimental BSS payload for aid in checking the suitability and readiness of the new ground station dish antenna and support equipment constructed at Moxee, WA. which will serve as the feeder station for programming to the RB2-A BSS package aboard D12 to be launched later.

How much any of this prior testing actually speeds up the go active time for D12 once it is on station is unknown, but it should obviously speed up the process nevertheless.


----------



## Piratefan98

I sure hope the Sea Launch folks keep their eyes peeled for those Somali pirates.

To date, pirates have stolen fishing boats, private yachts, and even an oil tanker a few months ago. If they get their hands on D12, dbstalk better purchase some additional bandwidth, because it's going to get frenetic around here.

:lol:


----------



## Smthkd

Umm Dude! D12 is not using Sea Launch! They are going to use the Banikor land site.


----------



## bobnielsen

Also it is a long way from the Somalia coast to the Sea Launch site in the Pacific.


----------



## Sixto

Today's (10/09/2009) D12 related Filings:D10 move from 102.775° to 102.815°:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-182678​
SW1 move from 102.885° to 102.925°:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-182679​
D12 is now "impending launch". 

Also, referred to (again) as "Launch of DirecTV 12 is currently scheduled for the end of this year".


----------



## HoTat2

bobnielsen said:


> Also it is a long way from the Somalia coast to the Sea Launch site in the Pacific.


And also since I understand Sea Launch is in bankruptcy, I would think the threat from something like "Somali pirates" would be the least of their worries about their business right now...


----------



## harsh

anik has updated his calendar to show a November 15th date for Eutelsat W7 (the launch that is thought to preceed D12).


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> anik has updated his calendar to show a November 15th date for Eutelsat W7 (the launch that is thought to preceed D12).


Yep, and he now has D12 as "December".


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Yep, and he now has D12 as "December".


So its official then for a December launch?


----------



## Smthkd

Well, I guess I will be waiting 2 more months before cheering D12 on it final voyage! Can't wait!  BTW: Good info guys! Keep up the good work! We really appreciate it.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So its official then for a December launch?


Not official until it's official. 

Either a press release or ILS web-site or ...


----------



## Big Dave 09

Sixto said:


> Not official until it's official.
> 
> Either a press release or ILS web-site or ...


Sixto-are we looking at new HD channels around March? Is that also the time for the annual price increase? Just wondering the time frame! thanks for the all your information!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet?

How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer?


----------



## Ed Campbell

Annual price increase? You mean the one that shows up every 3-5 years?


----------



## HarleyD

Ed Campbell said:


> Annual price increase? You mean the one that shows up every 3-5 years?


If you're talking dog years, yes.


----------



## Bob Coxner

Ed Campbell said:


> Annual price increase? You mean the one that shows up every 3-5 years?


How long have you been with DTV? There's been an increase every year for the past 4 or 5 years, usually in February or March.


----------



## mcbeevee

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet? Is it launched yet?
> 
> How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer? How much longer?


Must be related to EaglePC!

:roundandr


----------



## Sixto

The Boeing site was just updated:http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html​
It now shows the 2009 Baikonur launch and states: "After DIRECTV 12 is launched and deployed into operation with DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 11, the three satellites will deliver 210 national HD channels and 1,200 local HD channels to millions of U.S. households."

Also, the W7 launch date has been changed (by Anik) to 11/18/2009. Assuming that D12 is next, would place D12 about last week December.


----------



## Guest

Sixto said:


> Also, the W7 launch date has been changed (by Anik) to 11/18/2009. Assuming that D12 is next, would place D12 about last week December.


Sounds like a good Christmas present


----------



## bcltoys

For the people that have no clue as to what all this means how many more hd channels will this get the east coast.


----------



## LameLefty

bcltoys said:


> For the people that have no clue as to what all this means how many more hd channels will this get the east coast.


Read the very first post of this thread and get edumacated.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> The Boeing site was just updated:http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html​
> It now shows the 2009 Baikonur launch and states: "After DIRECTV 12 is launched and deployed into operation with DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 11, *the three satellites will deliver 210 national HD channels *and 1,200 local HD channels to millions of U.S. households."
> 
> Also, the W7 launch date has been changed (by Anik) to 11/18/2009. Assuming that D12 is next, would place D12 about last week December.


I'm sure DIRECTV sh*t when they read this. They forgot the "up to" 210 national HD channels. :lol:

It would be a nice holiday gift to get this bird launched in December. A great way to start the new year. I really hope all channel agreements/contracts are in place. I'd hate to hear the "negotiations" word when asking why we're not seeing certain channels.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> It would be a nice holiday gift to get this bird launched in December. A great way to start the new year. I really hope all channel agreements/contracts are in place. I'd hate to hear the "negotiations" word when asking why we're not seeing certain channels.


It would seem mighty foolish to launch a bird up there for millions of dollars and not have channels ready to launch once its activated...a very safe bet that once D12 is "live"...the new HD channels will be ready as well.


----------



## P Smith

Dexter Morgan said:


> Sounds like a good Christmas present


Nay, counting 5-6 weeks regular interval between launches after W7 future start at 11/18/09, we will not see D12 liftoff this year. 
Most likely January 2010.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Nay, counting 5-6 weeks regular interval between launches after W7 future start at 11/18/09, we will not see D12 liftoff this year.
> Most likely January 2010.


I'm thinking Santa will be dodging D12 launch debris.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm thinking Santa will be dodging D12 launch debris.


I'm hoping there's no debris to dodge. :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> I'm hoping there's no debris to dodge. :grin:


Only the normal stuff: fairings, boosters, gases, etc. I'm hoping D12 is a clean, happy launch and short trip to home on Lagrange.


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> Only the normal stuff: fairings, boosters, gases, etc. I'm hoping D12 is a clean, happy launch and short trip to home on Lagrange.


So, you propose to ditch the sat to Lagrangian point  ? Far away from GSO 103W ! 
[*] Earth and Moon: 61,500 km (38,200 mi) *from the Moon*


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm thinking Santa will be dodging D12 launch debris.


You forget about russian tradition to drink vodka for two weeks straight starting Christmas !


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Nay, counting 5-6 weeks regular interval between launches after W7 future start at 11/18/09, we will not see D12 liftoff this year.
> Most likely January 2010.


Assuming that W7 goes well and on schedule ...

Assuming that D12 is contracted to follow W7 ...

Assuming that the time between launches follows past patterns ... (last time I analyzed this I think the average was about 42 days)

Then I'd say 12/31 with up to 10 days prior or 10 days after as a range.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would seem mighty foolish to launch a bird up there for millions of dollars and not have channels ready to launch once its activated...a very safe bet that once D12 is "live"...the new HD channels will be ready as well.


I like the way you think! Please get a job at DIRECTV.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> I like the way you think! Please get a job at DIRECTV.


Not likely...


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Assuming that W7 goes well and on schedule ...
> 
> Assuming that D12 is contracted to follow W7 ...
> 
> Assuming that the time between launches follows past patterns ... (last time I analyzed this I think the average was about 42 days)
> 
> Then I'd say 12/31 with up to 10 days prior or 10 days after as a range.


Well, you forgot about 'clear window' - space debrie and other launches are very significant contributers to establising the date.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Well, you forgot about 'clear window' - space debrie and other launches are very significant contributers to establising the date.


Didn't forget.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Well, you forgot about 'clear window' - space debrie and other launches are very significant contributers to establising the date.


I would seriously dispute the idea that space debris is a significant issue with regard to scheduling launches. Other launches using the range, yes. As I've said many times in this thread, launch range availability is very, very important factor. That usually revolves around how often and for how long authorities can reasonably clear the areas downrange for staging events (no one wants a spent rocket stage to fall on them, let alone one filled with nasty hypergolics). It also depends on the tracking, telemetry and command/control data handling capabilities of the range facilities.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> *I would seriously dispute the idea that space debris is a significant issue with regard to scheduling launches.* Other launches using the range, yes. As I've said many times in this thread, launch range availability is very, very important factor. That usually revolves around how often and for how long authorities can reasonably clear the areas downrange for staging events (no one wants a spent rocket stage to fall on them, let alone one filled with nasty hypergolics). It also depends on the tracking, telemetry and command/control data handling capabilities of the range facilities.


I wouldn't - just ask those ppl who are tracking it and providing tons of numbers to heads of ILS and launching crew how important it is.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't - just ask those ppl who are tracking it and providing tons of numbers to heads of ILS and launching crew how important it is.


I used to work with people doing it for NASA and I'm still in contact with some of them. Debris is not a major launch constraint (unlike range limits).


----------



## kevinwmsn

Boeing needs to correct their website... It shows that the national payload is Ku, not Ka.... At least it shows the spots are Ka. If its going to be a late December launch, then maybe Santa could pull D12 and put it into orbit with that sleigh of his:lol::lol::lol::lol: Come on Rudolph, Full power......


----------



## P Smith

Definitely not Santa, perhaps Father Frost at Baikonur..


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> I used to work with people doing it for NASA and I'm still in contact with some of them. Debris is not a major launch constraint (unlike range limits).


Still significant and definitely taking in consideration of time a launch.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Still significant and definitely taking in consideration of time a launch.


It's about 75th on the list of most important launch constraints.


----------



## Sixto

The Boeing site says 2009.

The CFO recently said 2009.

Anik says 2009.

Other indications lean towards 2009.

My gut feel is that the internal (non-public) schedule has a date in 2009.

Might it slip? Sure. Happens all the time, with weather or any number of other scheduling items.

But as long as it is within a little bit of 12/31, we'll be golden by the end of Q1/2010.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> It's about 75th on the list of most important launch constraints.


May I see the mentioned list ? 

Anyway it still there regardless of the position and really counted. C'mon LL - I pointed to that and you did too already. Lets move to watch Moffett strip .


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> May I see the mentioned list ?


Sorry, I can't disseminate "Sensitive But Unclassified" stuff without losing access to it. 



> Anyway it still there regardless of the position and really counted. C'mon LL - I pointed to that and you did too already. Lets move to watch Moffett strip .


MY point is that debris considerations might affect a launch window to within a few minutes, not within a few days or weeks. Remember, the Briz-M is going to perform nearly half-a-dozen post-launch burns and then D12 itself will spend weeks tweaking its own trajectory.


----------



## P Smith

OK. 

You'll let us know (after that launch will happened when nobody will harm by disclosure) what was a major and minor point in that decision of particular day/hour/minute of liftoff.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> OK.
> 
> You'll let us know (after that launch will happened when nobody will harm by disclosure) what was a major and minor point in that decision of particular day/hour/minute of liftoff.


Nope, I won't, because:

#1) I know enough about the subject from training and experience to know debris considerations won't make that such a difference that anyone would notice (minutes rather than days/weeks);

#2) Even if I did have insider info from ILS, I'd know enough to not discuss the internal operational specifics of any given launch campaign. Not if I wanted to keep my inside source.


----------



## P Smith

You got it to wide - just share those _real_ major/minor reasons of the upcoming launch' window (not from your past knowledge) - access to that type of info already have a few hundred ppl. C'mon. Just generic info - no need any details. I mean not today, but in January, after.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Nope, I won't, because:
> 
> #1) I know enough about the subject from training and experience to know debris considerations won't make that such a difference that anyone would notice (minutes rather than days/weeks);
> 
> #2) Even if I did have insider info from ILS, I'd know enough to not discuss the internal operational specifics of any given launch campaign. Not if I wanted to keep my inside source.


Rule #1:

Never argue with a Rocket Scientist about Rocket Science.


----------



## P Smith

Rule#0: don't intervene two RS ppl conversation.


----------



## RAD

From page 660 of http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/DTV/722130341x0xS1047469-09-9049/1465112/1047469-09-9049.pdf

_"For its DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch in the second half of 2009, DIRECTV expects to purchase launch insurance."_

Wish one day they'd actually say when they hoped to launch D12.


----------



## woj027

RAD said:


> From page 660 of http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/DTV/722130341x0xS1047469-09-9049/1465112/1047469-09-9049.pdf
> 
> _"For its DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch in the second half of 2009, DIRECTV expects to purchase launch insurance."_
> 
> Wish one day they'd actually say when they hoped to launch D12.


Page 995

"DIRECTV 12 is under construction and is expected to be ready for launch in the second half of 2009"


----------



## Drew2k

woj027 said:


> Page 995
> 
> "DIRECTV 12 is under construction and is expected to be ready for launch in the second half of 2009"


Yeah, we were already in the ballpark and we're now heading to our section, but what we really want is our seat number.


----------



## woj027

Drew2k said:


> Yeah, we were already in the ballpark and we're now heading to our section, but what we really want is our seat number.


At least we have tickets to the game, right?


----------



## LameLefty

Anik is now quoting an anonymous source as January 2010 for D12/RB-2A.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Anik is now quoting an anonymous source as January 2010 for D12/RB-2A.


Counted as most likely last weeks .


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Rule#0: don't intervene two RS ppl conversation.


Rule#3=Ignore Rule #0.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Rule#3=Ignore Rule #0.


:lol:


----------



## Sixto

Rule#4=Predicting launch dates is not a perfect science.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Rule#4=Predicting launch dates is not a perfect science.


That should be Rule #1.


----------



## harsh

The www.federalspace.ru site linked to in anik's recent report states that W7 arrived at Baikonur yesterday and was put on "the bench" today. Given typical turnarounds, it would appear that they're going to be pushing it a little bit to meet the November 18th launch. Recent history gives 26 days as the quickest turn-around (from arrival to launch) with 30 days typical.

In any case, 44 days (average interval between launches) from the 18th is clearly into January 2010.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> The www.federalspace.ru site linked to in anik's recent report states that W7 arrived at Baikonur yesterday and was put on "the bench" today. Given typical turnarounds, it would appear that they're going to be pushing it a little bit to meet the November 18th launch. Recent history gives 26 days as the quickest turn-around (from arrival to launch) with 30 days typical.
> 
> In any case, 44 days (average interval between launches) from the 18th is clearly into January 2010.


Of course it it is determined to be a significant "push back", they could also swap the dates with D12 and send it up first.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Rule#4=Predicting launch dates is not a perfect science.


There's a fairly vocal element here that says that they don't need to be predicted because DIRECTV long ago decided precisely when the launch would be.

In that case, guessing at what they ordained is not a precise science.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> There's a fairly vocal element here that says that they don't need to be predicted because DIRECTV long ago decided precisely when the launch would be.
> 
> In that case, *guessing at what they ordained *is not a precise science.


I'd say that's a fair statement.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course it it is determined to be a significant "push back", they could also swap the dates with D12 and send it up first.


Since W7 is on "the bench" and the completion of D12 hasn't been formally announced by Boeing, this seems unlikely.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Since W7 is on "the bench" and the completion of D12 hasn't been *formally announced* by Boeing, this seems unlikely.


So that means we're back to speculating again, huh?


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So that means we're back to speculating again, huh?


Par for the course; just like passing off info obtained from other sources as one's own combined with authoritative pronouncements in an effort to sound more like a real expert to the n00bs.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So that means we're back to speculating again, huh?


It is only speculation if you believe that D12 might get reshuffled ahead of W7 or that DIRECTV has almighty control over when D12 will launch.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Par for the course; just like passing off info obtained from other sources as one's own combined with authoritative pronouncements in an effort to sound more like a real expert to the n00bs.


I've cited my sources. The intervals between delivery and launch come from the ILS launch blogs and the intervals between launches comes from anik's list. Do you have a more authoritative source regarding what happened or are you just casting FUD?

If you really wanted to poke holes, you would need to show where my reasoning is wrong. Declaring me unqualified doesn't seem very scholarly and it doesn't present us with anything more substantial.


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> There's a fairly vocal element here that says that they don't need to be predicted because DIRECTV long ago decided precisely when the launch would be.
> 
> In that case, guessing at what they ordained is not a precise science.


Don't you get dizzy from the thin air at the top of your high horse?


----------



## bcltoys

When there is more H/D channels we will know its up.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Rule#3=Ignore Rule #0.


Funny, when someone who never touch a nozzle establishing "rules" here. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Post#1 updated with possibility of January.

Any change to W7 may impact D12, or weather, or a multitude of other possibilities ...


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Funny, when someone who never touch a nozzle establishing "rules" here. :lol:


You don't have to have touched a nozzle to have a working B.S. detector.


----------



## dwrats_56

harsh said:


> There's a fairly vocal element here that says that they don't need to be predicted because DIRECTV long ago decided precisely when the launch would be.
> 
> In that case, guessing at what they ordained is not a precise science.


I have tried for a long time to ignore "harsh", but I just have to speak.

He is not saying anything to support, or providing any evidence to support anything he chooses to post.

LameLefty and Sixto are on the ball and are keeping us well informed and up to date on any new information. (I have been spending my spare time looking around to add information without any luck) I REALLY DO appreciate that. DirecTV has NOT predicted precisely when D12 will be launch. They have has a project plan and with positive and negative changes, the target date has changed.

I am just recalling from memory, but October 8th was the last date I recall that D12 was to be finished and ready to be shipped to Baikanur. I am speculating that with the RB-2A changes that the October 8th date has been pushed back. With that, late December or early January would be a more realistic target launch date.

Even though we all wish that the date was next week, it is what it is. ISL, Boeing and DirecTV are doing the right thing to get D17/RB-2A successfully launched at the earliest possible date.

In the mean time, I will keep trying to ignore harsh with one foot in his mouth and the other foot where the sun don't shine with all of his comments that he has to say here in the D* forums, that appear to be negative with no redeeming value. Other than to tic people off.

"MY OPINION". Since harsh is a dish customer and posts the majority of his comment in the D* forum, I can only speculate that he does this to be noticed. The comments he posts in the E* forums just don't get noticed because there are almost always twice as many people involved in the E* forums as there are involved in the D* forums at any given time that I have checked. He just needs the attention. "END MY OPINION"


----------



## David MacLeod

dwrats_56 said:


> I have tried for a long time to ignore "harsh", but I just have to speak.
> 
> He is not saying anything to support, or providing any evidence to support anything he chooses to post.
> 
> LameLefty and Sixto are on the ball and are keeping us well informed and up to date on any new information. (I have been spending my spare time looking around to add information without any luck) I REALLY DO appreciate that. DirecTV has NOT predicted precisely when D12 will be launch. They have has a project plan and with positive and negative changes, the target date has changed.
> 
> I am just recalling from memory, but October 8th was the last date I recall that D12 was to be finished and ready to be shipped to Baikanur. I am speculating that with the RB-2A changes that the October 8th date has been pushed back. With that, late December or early January would be a more realistic target launch date.
> 
> Even though we all wish that the date was next week, it is what it is. ISL, Boeing and DirecTV are doing the right thing to get D17/RB-2A successfully launched at the earliest possible date.
> 
> In the mean time, I will keep trying to ignore harsh with one foot in his mouth and the other foot where the sun don't shine with all of his comments that he has to say here in the D* forums, that appear to be negative with no redeeming value. Other than to tic people off.
> 
> "MY OPINION". Since harsh is a dish customer and posts the majority of his comment in the D* forum, I can only speculate that he does this to be noticed. The comments he posts in the E* forums just don't get noticed because there are almost always twice as many people involved in the E* forums as there are involved in the D* forums at any given time that I have checked. He just needs the attention. "END MY OPINION"


politely and truthfully stated.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Funny, when someone who never touch a nozzle establishing "rules" here. :lol:


Oh contrare....you should have seen the Saturn 5 multi-stage rocker I built when I was 15...got it over 4500 feet up there! 

That particular rule fits many situations.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> You don't have to have touched a nozzle to have a working B.S. detector.


Bravo. :lol:

There's also a part of me that wants to say "get along little doggy, get along"...but I won't do that.

Back to D12.


----------



## spear61

One should not get bent out of shape concerning launch scheduling conflicts.
ILS updated their Planing guide just this month (October). They specify in the guide that, while they have averaged about 12 launches per year, they are capable of 4 commercial launches per month using two launch pads with a 25 day turnaround for each pad. So, satellite and rocket deliveries become the major element controlling the launches.


----------



## LameLefty

spear61 said:


> One should not get bent out of shape concerning launch scheduling conflicts.
> ILS updated their Planing guide just this month (October). They specify in the guide that, while they have averaged about 12 launches per year, they are capable of 4 commercial launches per month using two launch pads with a 25 day turnaround for each pad. So, satellite and rocket deliveries become the major element controlling the launches.


Good catch. Some months ago I posted an update from Khrunichev from some time back indicating factory capability to produce up to 14 Protons per year but no one seemed to care. 

As far as the satellite goes, we are still waiting for FCC approval for launch and operations that typically comes a couple of weeks or so before the launch. It seems that the FCC staffers and the satellite operators' attorneys and technical people consult quite a bit behind the scenes prior to the paperwork being processed.


----------



## harsh

dwrats_56 said:


> He is not saying anything to support, or providing any evidence to support anything he chooses to post.


If you read through the whole thread, you'll find that I have provided numerous links and have often "shown my math" when making projections and squashing silliness. If my projections don't seem favorable, that's unfortunate, but I've typically not been very far off given the available information.

To those who believe that knowledge of things launch related is predicated on being a DIRECTV subscriber or a self-proclaimed former employee in some aspect of the space industry, I'm suggesting that you may be a little narrow minded.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Good catch. Some months ago I posted an update from Khrunichev from some time back indicating factory capability to produce up to 14 Protons per year but no one seemed to care.


This year there would appear to be around 10 Proton-M launches if I'm tallying anik's list correctly. There are some other model Proton rockets being used but I'm not sure whether they are included in your count.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Oh contrare....you should have seen the Saturn 5 multi-stage rocker I built when I was 15...got it over 4500 feet up there!
> 
> That particular rule fits many situations.


Well, now no one need a B.S. detector for you, mr obvious. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Well, now no one need a B.S. detector for you, mr obvious. :lol:


Clearly some folks don't have the words "sense of humor" in their vocabulary.


----------



## Sixto

The latest ... for the BSS testing from D11 (granted today):http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=750546

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=749178

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=750549

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=749171​


----------



## dettxw

Did I miss the delivery report or are we still waiting on that event?


----------



## LameLefty

dettxw said:


> Did I miss the delivery report or are we still waiting on that event?


Satellite delivery has not been announced (which means it's probably still in a Boeing clean room undergoing verification and testing).

The links Sixto provided relate to testing the experimental BSS payload on D11.

EDITED TO CLARIFY: Before some little doggy comes along to pedantically "correct" me - the testing is actually for the BSS uplink facility Directv plans to operate with the BSS-band payload on the new satellite (RB-2A), testing to be performed using the BSS-band experimental payload in place on D11.


----------



## dettxw

LameLefty said:


> Satellite delivery has not been announced (which means it's probably still in a Boeing clean room undergoing verification and testing).
> 
> The links Sixto provided relate to testing the experimental BSS payload on D11.


Thanks.

BTW I wasn't connecting the D12 delivery with Sixto's last report, the adjacent posts were coincidence. 
Was just not seeing any news reports of D12 delivery and wanted to make sure that I hadn't missed anything here.


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> EDITED TO CLARIFY: Before some little doggy comes along to pedantically "correct" me...


subtle


----------



## Sixto

dettxw said:


> Did I miss the delivery report or are we still waiting on that event?


see post#1.


----------



## dwrats_56

LameLefty said:


> EDITED TO CLARIFY: Before some little doggy comes along to pedantically "correct" me - the testing is actually for the BSS uplink facility Directv plans to operate with the BSS-band payload on the new satellite (RB-2A), testing to be performed using the BSS-band experimental payload in place on D11.


:evilgrin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok guys, lets play nice. I don't want to ban people when it launches 10 pico-forte-nights off someone's guess. It will launch when it launches. It will bring us more glorious HD. And some of us, perhaps, some testing in a new bandwidth. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## oldfantom

Tom Robertson said:


> 10 pico-forte-nights
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Would that be the same as a nano forte night? Or 1.4 X 10-10 nights? These very small numbers and their notations confuse me so.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thanks to Sixto and LameLefty for their continued updates....enjoy the information and I learn a few things along the way.

As for the specific date...we're likely about 75 days or less of a launch, and what date D12 does up is secondary to its activation date, which is clearly 1Q 2010.

As Tom correctly pointed out...once D12 is up and operation in just a few more months...and more new National HD Channels (and LILs) are broadcast...
this will all be put in perspective.

Once we get over the 150-160 national HD channel number...honestly...there are only 168 viewing hours each week....most folks will have plenty to keep them busy on their HDTV.


----------



## Sixto

Let's all play nice.

This is just a place to hang out for those interested in D12.

We have guys/gals/(puppies ) from all walks of life. We have different experience levels, and certainly different opinions. 

All good.

The launch may be in 2009, if everything with W7 goes perfectly.

Or the launch may be in 2010, if W7 gets delayed, and/or D12 gets delayed, and/or weather, ... anything can change.

Seems more likely for early 2010 at this point, but anything is possible.

Personally, I have no problem with anyone's opinion here.

All in good fun, as we await more official information.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> All in good fun, as we await more official information.


:goodjob:

Here here.


----------



## LameLefty

And not only does Directv have authority to operate it's new BSS uplink facility, it now has authority to do so with D11 broadcasting with its experimental BSS payload.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-2287A1.pdf

Progress!


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> And not only does Directv have authority to operate it's new BSS uplink facility, it now has authority to do so with D11 broadcasting with its experimental BSS payload.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-2287A1.pdf
> 
> Progress!


Yep, that's the weekly summary of the approval from yesterday.

Good steady progress indeed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Here's a question...

I'm wondering if we'll ever see a live video of the launch like we have for those from SeaLaunch in the past?...that would be cool.


----------



## longrider

I have an old bookmark for 'streamos.com' titled Proton DirecTV10 launch but I honestly dont remember if I watched it.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Here's a question...
> 
> I'm wondering if we'll ever see a live video of the launch like we have for those from SeaLaunch in the past?...that would be cool.


Check the ILS site - a lot of the operators are doing live webcasts these days. I suspect of they run one for Eutelsat 7, they'll do it for D12/RB-2A.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm wondering if we'll ever see a live video of the launch like we have for those from SeaLaunch in the past?...that would be cool.


The most recent DISH satellite launches (Ciel II and Nimiq 5) were uplinked for North America and Europe according to their respective blogs on the ILS website.

It is likely that feeds will again be made available.


----------



## JLucPicard

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Here's a question...
> 
> I'm wondering if we'll ever see a live video of the launch like we have for those from SeaLaunch in the past?...that would be cool.


Seems to me I remember that DirecTV carried the launch of D10 (?) from Baikonur. That was where I think I first heard the now imfamous "Nom-ee-nal".


----------



## dpeters11

JLucPicard said:


> Seems to me I remember that DirecTV carried the launch of D10 (?) from Baikonur. That was where I think I first heard the now imfamous "Nom-ee-nal".


Ah, the good ol days!


----------



## Tom Robertson

dpeters11 said:


> Ah, the *"Nom-ee-nal"* ol days!


Fixed your post... :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JLucPicard said:


> Seems to me I remember that DirecTV carried the launch of D10 (?) from Baikonur. That was where I think I first heard the now imfamous "Nom-ee-nal".


Oh yeah.....I miss that...


----------



## dcowboy7

Doesnt seem much worse than going by notes made my a guy named "Anik".


----------



## RobertE

JLucPicard said:


> Seems to me I remember that DirecTV carried the launch of D10 (?) from Baikonur. That was where I think I first heard the now imfamous "Nom-ee-nal".


:love1: <-- for the Nom-ee-Nal chick, sorry dear captain. :grin:


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Yep, that's the weekly summary of the approval from yesterday.
> 
> Good steady progress indeed.


Hummm...

I guess just a single unmodulated carrier (formal FCC emission classification "N0N") transmitted at the upper edges of the BSS band, up/downlink, is all they need to evaluate the performance of the dish and other related transmission equipment at Moxee, WA. to DirecTV's satisfaction.

Interesting...


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> Fixed your post... :lol:


I have to admit I was hypnotized by her voice constantly saying "Nom-ee-nal!"


----------



## DCSholtis

I'm kind of shocked that Directv12 has yet to visit us.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DCSholtis said:


> I'm kind of shocked that Directv12 has yet to visit us.


Good point..usually see that early "visit" by now...


----------



## harsh

dcowboy7 said:


> Doesnt seem much worse than going by notes made my a guy named "Anik".


In this case, anik is the combination of the first two letters of his first and last names.

He is the forum administrator for the nasaspaceflight.com Russian launches forum and an administrator in the International Space Station program. anik hails from Moscow.


----------



## Tom Robertson

dcowboy7 said:


> Doesnt seem much worse than going by notes made my a guy named "Anik".


Anik is a pseudonym, just like dcowboy7. (Or is that your real name?) 

Anik is an excellent source of information and typically very up-to-date. I trust his sources and his reporting--unless my sources give me more information.  And then Anik gets an update and reports that.

I'm hoping Santa is dodging so launch debris this year. (Sorry, guys, the two week vodka binge will have to wait a little while this December. [Is that really true? They binge for 2 weeks?])

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Anik is a pseudonym, just like dcowboy7. (Or is that your real name?)


As far as I know, "Anik" is Anatoly Zak, Russian journalist and webmaster of www.russianspaceweb.com, and a forum adminstrator at www.NASASpaceflight.com.


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> Anik is a pseudonym, just like dcowboy7. (Or is that your real name?)
> 
> Anik is an excellent source of information and typically very up-to-date. I trust his sources and his reporting--unless my sources give me more information.  And then Anik gets an update and reports that.
> 
> I'm hoping Santa is dodging so launch debris this year. (Sorry, guys, the two week vodka binge will have to wait a little while this December. [Is that really true? They binge for 2 weeks?])
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


*Anatoly Zak*.
According 2005 article "_Today, from his home in suburban New Jersey, he does freelance illustration and writing, and maintains a Web site that is devoted to Russian aerospace news at http://www.russianspaceweb.com."_
And his last post on Twitter : "_It was recommended not to bet any substantial sums of money on the DirecTV 12 launch in 2009: http://bit.ly/1L8ML4
8:42 AM Oct 21st from web_".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> *Anatoly Zak*.
> According 2005 article "_Today, from his home in suburban New Jersey, he does freelance illustration and writing, and maintains a Web site that is devoted to Russian aerospace news at http://www.russianspaceweb.com."_
> And his last post on Twitter : "_*It was recommended not to bet any substantial sums of money on the DirecTV 12 launch in 2009*: http://bit.ly/1L8ML4
> 8:42 AM Oct 21st from web_".


Interesting....wonder how he would know this information to be fact.


----------



## dcowboy7

P Smith said:


> *Anatoly Zak*.
> According 2005 article "Today, from his home in suburban New Jersey, he does freelance illustration and writing, and maintains a Web site that is devoted to Russian aerospace news"


Wonder why it isnt Anak then ? 
Suburban NJ....he could be my neighbor....that'd be a kicker.


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting....wonder how he would know this information to be fact.


He's got his sources too.


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> He's got his sources too.


We all have sources, it is the reliability of those sources that comes into question, at times. BTW Tom, how you do'n?  Are you excited about the BSS stuff? Do you think that we the lowly consumer might see something coming out after the next launch? D12 is promising if you speculate on it's potential, eh?


----------



## QuickDrop

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting....wonder how he would know this information to be fact.


It doesn't seem like he claimed anything as fact. He basically said there's a greater probability that D12 would launch in 2010 than 2009; or at least that the probability was too close to call. Following this thread and the "real world" launch time periods, that doesn't seem unreasonable.


----------



## Tom Robertson

smiddy said:


> We all have sources, it is the reliability of those sources that comes into question, at times. BTW Tom, how you do'n?  Are you excited about the BSS stuff? Do you think that we the lowly consumer might see something coming out after the next launch? D12 is promising if you speculate on it's potential, eh?


Anik's sources are very good. 

And all sources are also only reliable at the moment. Obviously things happen; some we will know about; some we won't. 

When I wrote the Ka thread, I was amazed at the long-term strategy DIRECTV has plotted. We're talking many, many years of preparation, planning, and advanced FCC filings. DIRECTV is very close to being able to serve the entire contiguous US with a single dish. Dish requires two different models and roughly twice the constellation because of their East and West Arcs.

Am I excited with each launch? Absolutely. 

And it was very cool to see Boeing's high bay lab where the satellites are built and tested.   

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Got no responses about this question on another thread, so thought I'd give it another try here before forgetting about it.

Appreciate any thoughts... 



> *I notice that according to the official specifications, DIRECTV10, 11, and 12, carry 28 active TWTA (with 8 spares) for their "CONUS/Alaska" national coverage beam. But then list 4 active (with 4 spares) for their "CONUS/Hawaii" beam.
> 
> I'm a little confused by this, but might this mean that the output of the 14 (16 for D12) national transponders are split prior to final power amplification with one path routed to a dedicated set of 4 active TWTAs for the Hawaiian Islands which is then placed on the same spotbeam used by Hawaii's LiLs?
> 
> That is to say the configuration possibly being the CONUS/Alaska beam transponders each have one 260 watt TWTA combo (two 130 watt TWTAs in parallel) for each transponder as stated in the specs. Whereas the CONUS/Hawaii beam has the same pre-power amplified 14(16) national transponders grouped up in some denser way as maybe two transponder sets of 7(8) each feeding to 2 260 watt TWTA combos (2 pairs of 2 130 watt TWTA in parallel) due to the spotbeam's higher power density?
> *


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> He's got his sources too.


I suspect he does. 

But I bet he didn't stand next to one of those birds like our resident expert.


----------



## PackCat

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm hoping Santa is dodging so launch debris this year. (Sorry, guys, the two week vodka binge will have to wait a little while this December.


But you need to remember that Christmas is January 7th in Russia... Almost a full 2 weeks later.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> As far as I know, "Anik" is Anatoly Zak, Russian journalist and webmaster of www.russianspaceweb.com, and a forum adminstrator at www.NASASpaceflight.com.


While this is certainly possible, it doesn't answer the claim of being an ISS Administrator. It does explain his above average command of the English language.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> While this is certainly possible, it doesn't answer the claim of being an ISS Administrator. It does explain his above average command of the English language.


But then...some in the KGB spoke English quite well too....:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> While this is certainly possible, it doesn't answer the claim of being an ISS Administrator. It does explain his above average command of the English language.


WTF do you care about his "claim"? Your apparent dubiousness is thoroughly misplaced, as usual.

The ISS has U.S., Russian, European and Japanese segments, as well as a very complicated, highly-capable external robotics system supplied by Canada. The very first element launched was Zarya, a Russian-built, U.S.-paid for element that provided power, reboost and control in the early stages of construction. That's what the "I" stands for, you know? "International." For a space news site such as NSF, having a native Russian speaker who's familiar with Soviet/Russian space history and operations makes a lot of sense.

Unlike, say, a Dish Network subscriber who spends all his time nay-saying and passing himself off as an expert in a Directv forum.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> WTF do you care about his "claim"?


If his "claim" is true, then he's much more than an author as some have suggested. More than a couple here seem to think that they know who anik is (and they may be right).

On the other hand, I'm thinking his job is what he says it is and he and lives where he says he lives while others seem content to suggest that he's not being truthful about either.

Then, as expected, you come along and suggest that because you think that I don't suffer DIRECTV, I must obviously be wrong about who anik is and how credible his information might be.


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> Then, as expected, you come along and suggest that because you think that I don't suffer DIRECTV, I must obviously be wrong about who anik is and how credible his information might be.


It has nothing to do with you not suffering Directv, it has to do with your attitude in general. IOW, why do you care about Directv or it's issues when you don't subscribe to them. Some of us here already have an opinion on that matter.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> If his "claim" is true, then he's much more than an author as some have suggested. More than a couple here seem to think that they know who anik is (and they may be right).
> 
> On the other hand, I'm thinking his job is what he says it is and he and lives where he says he lives while others seem content to suggest that he's not being truthful about either.
> 
> Then, as expected, you come along and suggest that because you think that I don't suffer DIRECTV, I must obviously be wrong about who anik is and how credible his information might be.


I believe Mr. Lefty was asking *why do you care *(as Dish subscriber) in his first sentence....the rest is just in response to the specific data.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe Mr. Lefty was asking *why do you care *(as Dish subscriber) in his first sentence....the rest is just in response to the specific data.


I have friends and associates who subscribe (and sometimes suffer) and I try to keep them up-to-date. Going to DIRECTV for help hasn't been all that satisfying for several of them.

There's indeed another reason and some of it has to do with the amount of misinformation that I perceive to be presented. Admittedly some of it has come from my lack of understanding of certain aspects but my average isn't all that bad. Presenting my "facts" and showing the math allows the thinking reader to develop their own opinions about the efficacy of the information.

The fact that I often get a verbal beat-down for a reasoned opinion is something I've learned to live with.


----------



## LameLefty

Playing the poor, misunderstood martyr card? Good job. :lol:

The problem is, you don't KNOW the math to show. :nono:


----------



## joed32

When I had C-Band there were two satellites named Anik-1 and Anik-2. The name could have come from those.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> The problem is, you don't KNOW the math to show.


I think you would be surprised just how much math I know.


----------



## harsh

joed32 said:


> When I had C-Band there were two satellites named Anik-1 and Anik-2. The name could have come from those.


It could have, but it didn't.

I forgot to post this link earlier.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=6160.msg107933#msg107933


----------



## tcusta00

harsh said:


> I have friends


!rolling


----------



## David MacLeod

harsh said:


> I think you would be surprised just how much math I know.


I think that goes without saying.


----------



## knoxbh

Regarding HARSH.

Am retired military. I once worked with an Air Force Colonel who said, concerning my confrontation with another associate,: "Howard, when you argue with a fool, no one knows which one is the fool". And so be it with those who argue with HARSH. Who really cares what he says on this forum? If we don't keep replying to his postings, eventually he will get disgusted and quietly go away into the future of his beloved DISH.


----------



## dcowboy7

knoxbh said:


> Am retired military. I once worked with an Air Force Colonel who said, concerning my confrontation with another associate,: "Howard, when you argue with a fool, no one knows which one is the fool". And so be it with those who argue with HARSH. Who really cares what he says on this forum? If we don't keep replying to his postings, eventually he will get disgusted and quietly go away into the future of his beloved DISH.


Army football sux.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

knoxbh said:


> Regarding HARSH.
> 
> Am retired military. I once worked with an Air Force Colonel who said, concerning my confrontation with another associate,: "Howard, *when you argue with a fool, no one knows which one is the fool*". And so be it with those who argue with HARSH. Who really cares what he says on this forum? If we don't keep replying to his postings, eventually he will get disgusted and quietly go away into the future of his beloved DISH.


Bingo, this thread is about D12. It's not about the self proclaimed supposed experts. BFD who knows more. The bottom line, we're all waiting for D12. I'll be happy once we see a launch date. I'm sick of seeing TBD. :nono2:


----------



## anik

Hello, DBSTalk.Com forums members! 

It was very fun previous page about "who is anik?", "where is anik living?" and "anik is Anatoly Zak?" But I think it is enough to discuss me in this useful thread. 

I am not Anatoly Zak. I live in Moscow. As all of you, I have many sources, which help me to update plan with launch dates. They can be wrong, but I am trying to filter their information.

I have not current information about DirecTV 12 launch date. The latest what I have heard on October 9th that in December besides Proton-M launch with three Glonass-M satellites there will be one more Proton-M launch. It can be commercial or Russian military launch (with doubts), but I have supposed it will be launch with DirecTV 12, because all other commercial satellites were already postponed to next year.

Best regards.

:backtotop


----------



## Sixto

anik said:


> Hello, DBSTalk.Com forums members!
> 
> It was very fun previous page about "who is anik?", "where is anik living?" and "anik is Anatoly Zak?" But I think it is enough to discuss me in this useful thread.
> 
> I am not Anatoly Zak. I live in Moscow. As all of you, I have many sources, which help me to update plan with launch dates. They can be wrong, but I am trying to filter their information.
> 
> I have not current information about DirecTV 12 launch date. The latest what I have heard on October 9th that in December besides Proton-M launch with three Glonass-M satellites there will be one more Proton-M launch. It can be commercial or Russian military launch (with doubts), but I have supposed it will be launch with DirecTV 12, because all other commercial satellites were already postponed to next year.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> :backtotop


Welcome!

Your insight and thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Enjoy following your posts at nasaspaceflight.

Thanks for the post!


----------



## Tom Robertson

anik said:


> Hello, DBSTalk.Com forums members!
> 
> It was very fun previous page about "who is anik?", "where is anik living?" and "anik is Anatoly Zak?" But I think it is enough to discuss me in this useful thread.
> 
> I am not Anatoly Zak. I live in Moscow. As all of you, I have many sources, which help me to update plan with launch dates. They can be wrong, but I am trying to filter their information.
> 
> I have not current information about DirecTV 12 launch date. The latest what I have heard on October 9th that in December besides Proton-M launch with three Glonass-M satellites there will be one more Proton-M launch. It can be commercial or Russian military launch (with doubts), but I have supposed it will be launch with DirecTV 12, because all other commercial satellites were already postponed to next year.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> :backtotop


:welcome_s

You've done great work, thanks for coming here too.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MIAMI1683

Tom Robertson said:


> :welcome_s
> 
> You've done great work, thanks for coming here too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


 Man this site just gets better and better . Nice work Lefty, Sixto and the rest of the gang. Welcome Anik also!


----------



## LameLefty

anik said:


> Hello, DBSTalk.Com forums members!
> 
> It was very fun previous page about "who is anik?", "where is anik living?" and "anik is Anatoly Zak?" But I think it is enough to discuss me in this useful thread.
> 
> I am not Anatoly Zak. I live in Moscow.


Well that's answers that. 

Welcome to DBSTalk!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

joed32 said:


> When I had C-Band there were two satellites named Anik-1 and Anik-2. The name could have come from those.


Weren't those the Canadian satellites back then?


----------



## raoul5788

TheRatPatrol said:


> Weren't those the Canadian satellites back then?


Yup. I remember the first time I fired up my cband system. I got a Toronto Blue Jay game. The picture quality was so good, it would rival an hd picture today.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

raoul5788 said:


> Yup. I remember the first time I fired up my cband system. I got a Toronto Blue Jay game. The picture quality was so good, it would rival an hd picture today.


And many of us watched hockey on them too. 

Ok ok sorry, :backtotop


----------



## Tom Robertson

I've communicated with Anik (a couple times over the years) and can confirm this is _the_ Anik we've come to know and appreciate. 

We've also compared notes and have similar data... 

Good talking to you Anik!
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

anik said:


> Hello, DBSTalk.Com forums members!
> 
> It was very fun previous page about "who is anik?", "where is anik living?" and "anik is Anatoly Zak?" But I think it is enough to discuss me in this useful thread.
> 
> I am not Anatoly Zak. I live in Moscow. As all of you, I have many sources, which help me to update plan with launch dates. They can be wrong, but I am trying to filter their information.
> 
> I have not current information about DirecTV 12 launch date. The latest what I have heard on October 9th that in December besides Proton-M launch with three Glonass-M satellites there will be one more Proton-M launch. It can be commercial or Russian military launch (with doubts), but I have supposed it will be launch with DirecTV 12, because all other commercial satellites were already postponed to next year.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> :backtotop


WELCOME!!!

Thanks for the insight! I hope you drop by often!


----------



## QuickDrop

knoxbh said:


> Regarding HARSH.
> 
> Am retired military. I once worked with an Air Force Colonel who said, concerning my confrontation with another associate,: "Howard, when you argue with a fool, no one knows which one is the fool". And so be it with those who argue with HARSH. Who really cares what he says on this forum? If we don't keep replying to his postings, eventually he will get disgusted and quietly go away into the future of his beloved DISH.


Personally, I don't get why being a subscriber to either D* or E* automatically makes one unable to talk intelligently about the other. The problem with this specific poster is that he seems to be against D*, right or wrong, and as such is not much use against DirecTV cheerleaders who act like attempting to determine when a satellite will actually launch is a sign of bias.

What's funny is that in the Spring, everyone criticized Harsh for saying that a late September 2009 launch for D12 was unlikely. Now, everyone seems to be upset that he is saying that a December 2009 launch for D12 is unlikely.


----------



## knoxbh

Quote: "Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" Unquote. I don't give a damn when D-12 goes up - December, January, etc. There's so much available now on the current sats that I don't have time to watch them all, and there are so many I could care less about. But I do know that there is someone out there who does care to watch the ones I don't watch. I have no problem if D-12 goes up in December or January, or whenever - it will go up when it goes up. All the guessing on this forum is pure speculation - no one subscriber has any definitive information. So why can't we all just be happy that there will be a D-12 sometime in our near future (unless something horrible and unforseen happens)?


----------



## Sixto

knoxbh said:


> But I do know that there is someone out there who does care to watch the ones I don't watch. I have no problem if D-12 goes up in December or January, or whenever - it will go up when it goes up. All the guessing on this forum is pure speculation - no one subscriber has any definitive information. So why can't we all just be happy that there will be a D-12 sometime in our near future (unless something horrible and unforseen happens)?


Exactly.

My personal goal is just to keep post#1 updated with the latest information available, and stay clear of the personal conflict posts.


----------



## musselmang

I'm a neophyte follower of this thread...and I have read through most of the items posted. Forgive me if I have missed the answer to this question.

Can anyone point me to info regarding the addition of currently unserviced DMAs for local channels (SD or HD) with the launch of D12? If I am understanding correctly, D12 adds capacity, but I can't determine if that is to already existing service(i.e. more HD channels, switch to HD from SD locals) or if DTV is actually going to start offering locals to DMAs such as Charlottesville, VA.
Thanks for whatever direction you can point for further info.

SD


----------



## oldfantom

musselmang said:


> I'm a neophyte follower of this thread...and I have read through most of the items posted. Forgive me if I have missed the answer to this question.
> 
> Can anyone point me to info regarding the addition of currently unserviced DMAs for local channels (SD or HD) with the launch of D12? If I am understanding correctly, D12 adds capacity, but I can't determine if that is to already existing service(i.e. more HD channels, switch to HD from SD locals) or if DTV is actually going to start offering locals to DMAs such as Charlottesville, VA.
> Thanks for whatever direction you can point for further info.
> 
> SD


Someone will give a better answer than me I am sure, in the mean time you might try this thread specific to the locals.....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=665923#post665923

And welcome.


----------



## kevinwmsn

I think a lot of us have come down with "hditis". It has been described as everything we watched must be in HD. It has spread throughout the country. We all want more channels in HD, We basically want it all. I don't think we can be completely cured, however it can be treated. D12 should be able add enough HD content that there most channels will have an HD counterpoint. A successful launch of D12 will help treat this disease.


----------



## Sixto

Intelsat 16 (expected after D12) is now expected "beginning of February".

W7 (expected prior to D12) is still expected "November 18".

And right in the middle is ...


----------



## Gary Toma

musselmang said:


> .... Can anyone point me to info regarding the addition of currently unserviced DMAs for local channels (SD or HD) with the launch of D12? If I am understanding correctly, D12 adds capacity, but I can't determine if that is to already existing service(i.e. more HD channels, switch to HD from SD locals) or if DTV is actually going to start offering locals to DMAs such as Charlottesville, VA.
> Thanks for whatever direction you can point for further info.
> SD


You can start with this post HERE . Member 'doctor j' has been tracking this area closely. His post above will get you started. We can't know precisely what DIRECTV's plans are for D12, but with some homework, educated guesses at what's ahead in the LIL arena start making sense. If you are interested, there is lots to learn...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

knoxbh said:


> Quote: "Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" Unquote. I don't give a damn when D-12 goes up - December, January, etc. There's so much available now on the current sats that I don't have time to watch them all, and there are so many I could care less about. But I do know that there is someone out there who does care to watch the ones I don't watch. I have no problem if D-12 goes up in December or January, or whenever - it will go up when it goes up. All the guessing on this forum is pure speculation - no one subscriber has any definitive information. So why can't we all just be happy that there will be a D-12 sometime in our near future (unless something horrible and unforseen happens)?


Exactly. Theres nothing that we can do about it, so why worry about things we have no control over?


----------



## harsh

musselmang said:


> If I am understanding correctly, D12 adds capacity, but I can't determine if that is to already existing service(i.e. more HD channels, switch to HD from SD locals) or if DTV is actually going to start offering locals to DMAs such as Charlottesville, VA.


I don't expect that there will be a significant number of new LIL additions with D12. My understanding is that it will be taking over D10's LIL load at least in part and maybe adding what on D10 was damaged.


----------



## tcusta00

harsh said:


> I don't expect that there will be a significant number of new LIL additions with D12. My understanding is that it will be taking over D10's LIL load at least in part and maybe adding what on D10 was damaged.


Source please.


----------



## Sixto

tcusta00 said:


> Source please.


That's mostly been the explanation given by DirecTV (3/26/2009): "Spot beam replacement for DIRECTV 10 - also capable of performing spot beam mission of DIRECTV 11 at 99 WL"

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2147600&postcount=884​
Also similar words in the D12 FCC application. Not quite clear of what the additions will be, but it's been mentioned that D12 will be resolving the past issues with D10 LiL (8/7/2009):"Initially, DIRECTV intends to use this satellite, in part, to take over retransmission of HD local services currently being provided by DIRECTV 10, at which time the spot beam capability of DIRECTV 10 will become the backup for that capability on DIRECTV 12."​
It's also important to remember that D10 and D12 will be sharing the exact same frequency range for LiL. Ka-Lo: 18600-18800 MHz.


----------



## oldfantom

I have followed the thread on national capacity in programming section. So I know that, like it or not, the national HD thread seems to be full. Is there a sense of LIL capacity? 2009 has been the year of the HD local. Can and will that continue? I am just curious. I am in Houston, so it is an academic question for me.


----------



## bjlc

that we have been discussing this launch for over a year.. and that we have been waiting when its done launching basically a year and a half.. :nono2:
I mean.. this unit was a back up to the previous launch.. meaning that it was "supposedly primed and ready to go".. 

and we are still waiting..

we could have had a baby by now.. and it probably would have its first tooth by the time we get this thing lobbed into space..


----------



## harsh

oldfantom said:


> 2009 has been the year of the HD local.


While many existing HD markets have been significantly fortified, relativey few new markets have been added in 2009. Last year by this time, DIRECTV had added 28 new HD markets and by the end of the first week of November, they had added a total of 34 new HD markets.

In contrast, so far this year they have added 16 new HD markets. For those who already had HD LIL, this was the year of _more_ HD LIL. This is especially true of the PBS stations. For those who didn't have HD LIL service, this year has been a bit of a disappointment. HD LIL by date market added

From what DIRECTV has made public, they still have quite a bit of bandwidth for LIL channels. They claimed capacity for "up to" 1500 HD LIL channels and they currently offer less than 950. SD wing markets may have cut into that capacity, but I would guess they've had a relatively small impact.


----------



## bobnielsen

bjlc said:


> that we have been discussing this launch for over a year.. and that we have been waiting when its done launching basically a year and a half.. :nono2:
> I mean.. this unit was a back up to the previous launch.. meaning that it was "supposedly primed and ready to go"..
> 
> and we are still waiting..
> 
> we could have had a baby by now.. and it probably would have its first tooth by the time we get this thing lobbed into space..


After D11 was launched, D12 was modified to move the national transponders from Ka-low to Ka-high and the BSS (RB-2A) package was added. This must have taken at least a week or two for the design, test and integration phases :sure:


----------



## sigma1914

bjlc said:


> that we have been discussing this launch for over a year.. and that we have been waiting when its done launching basically a year and a half.. :nono2:
> I mean.. this unit was a back up to the previous launch.. meaning that it was "supposedly primed and ready to go"..
> 
> and we are still waiting..
> 
> we could have had a baby by now.. and it probably would have its first tooth by the time we get this thing lobbed into space..


Yea, building rockets and satellites with new technology is so easy! What's the wait?


----------



## doctor j

harsh said:


> They claimed capacity for "up to" 1500 HD LIL channels


Most recent claim that i recall modified the LIL output to 1200 channels.
"210 national HD and ..1200 LIL locals.

Harsh is correct in 950 plus MPEG 4 channels on D-10,D-11 and SW-2 now.
A number of these are MPEG 4 SD channels in MPEG 4 only markets.

A number of markets use the same channel such as UNC PBS throughout NC and adjacent overlapping markets.

Ther are only 825 to 850 unique channels outputed now. Many of these are still awaiting release, ie "in the stream" but not actually authorized for general reception.
This may be 100 or more. I've not counted exactly recently.

If 1200 unique LIL channels available most if not all the remaining 75 DMA markets could be covered, at least for the BIG 4 and PBS.

Doctor j

UPDATED :
QUICK REVIEW of gct's tables shows:
987 MPEG 4 channels on KA sats.
868 Unique channels
119 Multiple listings
Review of Newshawk's active list is about 755 turned on. ( A lot of the "gap" is significantly viewed channels which are listed in more than one market . I have no way of knowing if they are "active" and if so may only be for some "adjacent" zip codes.

FWIW
Doctor j


----------



## bakers12

bjlc said:


> that we have been discussing this launch for over a year.. and that we have been waiting when its done launching basically a year and a half.. :nono2:
> I mean.. this unit was a back up to the previous launch.. meaning that it was "supposedly primed and ready to go"..
> 
> and we are still waiting..
> 
> we could have had a baby by now.. and it probably would have its first tooth by the time we get this thing lobbed into space..


"We" aren't launching anything. DirecTV, Boeing, Khrunichev and ILS are. Don't take this launch so personally.


----------



## anik

I was told there is no DirecTV 12 launch in December 2009, nor in January 2010.


----------



## RAD

anik said:


> I was told there is no DirecTV 12 launch in December 2009, nor in January 2010.


Well, that's down right depressing news


----------



## Tom_S

And you believe someone with 2 posts!?


----------



## woj027

End of November 2009 then?


----------



## LameLefty

Tom_S said:


> And you believe someone with 2 posts!?


Two posts here. Not two posts on NASASpaceflight.com where he is an administrator and tracks scheduled Russian space launches.


----------



## dcowboy7

Sixto said:


> Intelsat 16 (expected after D12) is now expected "beginning of February".
> 
> W7 (expected prior to D12) is still expected "November 18".
> 
> And right in the middle is ...





anik said:


> I was told there is no DirecTV 12 launch in December 2009, nor in January 2010.


Well something doesnt compute.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Some of the areas that already have HD did recieve CW and MyTV in HD, which usually takes care of all of the main local programming. I think D* has has all but a few of the top 100 DMAs in HD. Hopefully next year they will continue upon that and get the top 200 DMAs in HD for locals. Not having locals in HD can be a deal breaker for getting/keeping subscribers for primetime programming and weekend sports.


----------



## JLucPicard

Tom_S said:


> And you believe someone with 2 posts!?


^^^^ Read up a little farther and see that he definitely has DBSTalk cred.


----------



## P Smith

Time to put the thread into hibernation mode due expecting HIGH level of speculation and WAGes.


----------



## dcowboy7

P Smith said:


> Time to put the thread into hibernation mode due expecting HIGH level of speculation and WAGes.


what ?


----------



## P Smith

Re-read posts after #487 .


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Time to put the thread into hibernation mode due expecting HIGH level of speculation and WAGes.


Nonsense. FCC filings will continue to be interesting and followed by several of us, regardless of whether the launch ends up in November or April. This is still the place to post them and discuss.

And I never did get that apology.


----------



## dcowboy7

P Smith said:


> Re-read posts after #487 .


I did....per sixto:

"Intelsat 16 (expected after D12) is now expected "beginning of February".
W7 (expected prior to D12) is still expected "November 18".
And right in the middle is ...D12"


----------



## Tom Robertson

bjlc said:


> that we have been discussing this launch for over a year.. and that we have been waiting when its done launching basically a year and a half.. :nono2:
> I mean.. this unit was a back up to the previous launch.. meaning that it was "supposedly primed and ready to go"..
> 
> and we are still waiting..
> 
> we could have had a baby by now.. and it probably would have its first tooth by the time we get this thing lobbed into space..


Had DIRECTV wanted to, they could have launched D12 a month after D11 was tested--if a satellite launcher was available.

Instead, they have been balancing their cash flow--just as a couple typically don't have a second baby 9 months after the first.  (Yeah, I know, not all people wait.)

They also wanted to add the BSS package--which required getting FCC approval for an BSS package. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> They also wanted to add the BSS package--which required getting FCC approval for an BSS package.


Tom knows this but some of the people who only follow along casually might not, but the FCC has granted Directv as license for BSS operation in a direct-to-home satellite system. However, they have NOT granted Directv a specific launch-and-operate authorization for the Directv 12/RB-2A satellite platform.

Yet.


----------



## Shades228

LameLefty said:


> Tom knows this but some of the people who only follow along casually might not, but the FCC has granted Directv as license for BSS operation in a direct-to-home satellite system. However, they have NOT granted Directv a specific launch-and-operate authorization for the Directv 12/RB-2A satellite platform.
> 
> Yet.


They have filed for it though and are just waiting on aproval correct?


----------



## Sixto

dcowboy7 said:


> I did....per sixto:
> 
> "Intelsat 16 (expected after D12) is now expected "beginning of February".
> W7 (expected prior to D12) is still expected "November 18".
> And right in the middle is ..."


The data came from Anik's posts at the other site ... so I certainly trust any new news and change.

W7 now shows 11/30, with D12 as "beginning of year". As of today's update by Anik:http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.msg496388#msg496388​


----------



## Curtis0620

January 15 – TBD – Proton-M/Briz-M – Baikonur


----------



## Sixto

Curtis0620 said:


> January 15 - TBD - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur


Yep, right now I'd wait for the earnings call to see what we hear. But the authority has always been Anik, along with FCC Filings and DirecTV Executive presentations/analyst calls.

As we've always said, things change ... and we'll continue to track all sources almost daily.


----------



## bakers12

Curtis0620 said:


> January 15 - TBD - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur


2010
Date - Satellite(s) - Rocket/Upper stage - Cosmodrome - Time
January 15 - TBD - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
beginning of February - Intelsat 16 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
February 3 - Progress M-04M (No. 404) - Soyuz-U - Baikonur
February 11-20 - three Kosmos (Glonass-M) satellites - Proton-M/DM-2 - Baikonur
February 28 - CryoSat-2 - Dnepr - Baikonur
February - Prisma (Mango), Prisma (Tango), Picard - Dnepr - Dombarovskiy
*beginning of year - DirecTV 12 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur*
beginning of March - EchoStar 14 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur

Anik's post shows that the DirecTV entry highlighted above was edited today. Since it's right between February and March, that gives us something.


----------



## Sixto

bakers12 said:


> Anik's post shows that the DirecTV entry highlighted above was edited today. Since it's right between February and March, that gives us something.


Yes, prior to today it was sitting in 2009 with a comment that it might be 2010. Today's update is the latest.

It has been updated several times over the past few months.


----------



## jrodfoo

Thanks for the updated information. they still can get this up and runnning and functional by end of the 1st QTR in 2010 if they launch the beginning of the year, right? I guess it would depend on if things go smoothly, ect, ect..


----------



## bjlc

gees sea launch is looking better and better all the time...


----------



## harsh

jrodfoo said:


> they still can get this up and runnning and functional by end of the 1st QTR in 2010 if they launch the beginning of the year, right?


If the D12 launch isn't the January launch, a Q1 2010 turn-up doesn't seem all that likely to me. The secondary payloads seem to extend the time required to test and hence the overall interval between launch and turn-up. D11 had an somewhat less complex BSS payload at it was more than four months between equatorial launch (3/19/08) and its handoff (7/21/08).

D12 would seem to represent the last hope of covering all the DMAs with spotbeams for a while so spot testing will likely be very deliberate.

Speaking of "for a while", has anyone heard anything solid about what comes next?


----------



## JLucPicard

bjlc said:


> gees sea launch is looking better and better all the time...


I thought Sea Launch was bankrupt.

This is getting as bad as the kids in the car, "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"

Am I completely out of the loop in thinking when it goes up, it goes up. When it's lit, it's lit?


----------



## Tom Robertson

JLucPicard said:


> I thought Sea Launch was bankrupt.
> 
> This is getting as bad as the kids in the car, "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
> 
> Am I completely out of the loop in thinking when it goes up, it goes up. When it's lit, it's lit?


Sea Launch is bankrupt but still flying from land (at least.)

Is getting as bad? 

You are wise in your thinking. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> D11 had an somewhat less complex BSS payload at it was more than four months between equatorial launch (3/19/08) and its handoff (7/21/08).


D11 also did it's BSS testing at 101 and not it's final 99 location which of corse require moving it into position twice. D12 won't have to deal with this repositioning twice as its bss testing will be at it's final location, 103.


----------



## QuickDrop

evan_s said:


> D11 also did it's BSS testing at 101 and not it's final 99 location which of corse require moving it into position twice. D12 won't have to deal with this repositioning twice as its bss testing will be at it's final location, 103.


As I recall the repositioning for D11 didn't take that long either way, it was the actual testing that took up the bulk of time, though I have no idea whether the more "complex" D12 will take more time to test than D11 or if prior BSS testing could shorten that period.

Sixto can speak to this better, but it should also be noted that assuming D12 launches safely D* might be able to put up more national HD on either D10 or D11 once football season is over since they can be sure there will the bandwidth there in time for next season. But then again, I don't know how much bandwidth the other sport packages take up.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

QuickDrop said:


> As I recall the repositioning for D11 didn't take that long either way, it was the actual testing that took up the bulk of time, though I have no idea whether the more "complex" D12 will take more time to test than D11 or if prior BSS testing could shorten that period.
> 
> Sixto can speak to this better, but it should also be noted that assuming D12 launches safely D* might be able to put up more national HD on either D10 or D11 once football season is over since they can be sure there will the bandwidth there in time for next season. But then again, I don't know how much bandwidth the other sport packages take up.


The other sports packs are mostly just rsn remaps.


----------



## bobnielsen

QuickDrop said:


> As I recall the repositioning for D11 didn't take that long either way, it was the actual testing that took up the bulk of time, though I have no idea whether the more "complex" D12 will take more time to test than D11 or if prior BSS testing could shorten that period.
> 
> Sixto can speak to this better, but it should also be noted that assuming D12 launches safely D* might be able to put up more national HD on either D10 or D11 once football season is over since they can be sure there will the bandwidth there in time for next season. But then again, I don't know how much bandwidth the other sport packages take up.


Since D12 will do BSS operation at the same orbital position as it will use for Ka operation, the BSS testing doesn't need to be done prior to becoming fully operational.


----------



## harsh

bobnielsen said:


> Since D12 will do BSS operation at the same orbital position as it will use for Ka operation, the BSS testing doesn't need to be done prior to becoming fully operational.


I'm not convinced that no testing is needed. By the time D12 gets to its place, I would think that it would still need to be tested for interaction with D11 at least.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Absolutely there will be testing and most likely off axis from any existing satellite. 

The spots will need to be tested, the nationals will need to be fired and checked, and the BSS package will most likely be tested as well. (Tho in theory that could wait until it is parked, it likely will be done in parallel with the other off axis testing.)

The big question is how much fuel will they use to move the bird around. Sometimes they move it very slowly with very minimal fuel usage. Sometimes more quickly.

So this timeline is hard to predict. Could be as quickly as 30 days after launch, could take a couple more months.

The good news is that LameLefty and Sixto will keep us all updated as quickly as things happen. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## QuickDrop

Tom Robertson said:


> So this timeline is hard to predict. Could be as quickly as 30 days after launch, could take a couple more months.


Darn you with your reasonable, pragmatic assessment of the unknown! Where's the fun in that?


----------



## Tom Robertson

QuickDrop said:


> Darn you with your reasonable, pragmatic assessment of the unknown! Where's the fun in that?


Every now and then I just gotta toss these in to keep from being too predictable.


----------



## houskamp

screw it, just light that friggen candle


----------



## rocatman

Is the delay in launching D12 because of ILS/Proton scheduling or is it because the satellite is still being worked on/tested on the ground especially with the BSS payload?


----------



## MikeR7

Tom Robertson said:


> Every now and then I just gotta toss these in to keep from being too predictable.


Speaking of the unknown, or the predictable, what is you prediction for the game Sunday? 

I know, off topic, but was just wondering.


----------



## LameLefty

rocatman said:


> Is the delay in launching D12 because of ILS/Proton scheduling or is it because the satellite is still being worked on/tested on the ground especially with the BSS payload?


Could be any number of things. I see the Eutelsat W7 launch has been bumped 4 days, to 11/22. That could be ILS, it could be testing of the satellite itself, it could be tracking and telemetry limitations of the launch range or Eutelsat's control center. But any delays tend to ripple downstream in the schedule.


----------



## Sixto

rocatman said:


> Is the delay in launching D12 because of ILS/Proton scheduling or is it because the satellite is still being worked on/tested on the ground especially with the BSS payload?


That assumes it's been delayed.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> That assumes it's been delayed.


Well, not to be antagonistic. But everything publicly stated until now has said late 2009 launch. So, by assuming 2010 <> 2009, then there has been a delay. Maybe that delay was the non tech schedule. Maybe some really smart guy they keep locked in the basement knew better. But I am going with, delayed. Maybe your point is that 2009 is not done yet. But the bird is still in the clean room in the US. The launch window posted by reliable sources says 2010 and so does Harsh. Why can't we all just move on to the 2010 date?

Well that was a long way to go for a prime Harsh said joke.


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> Well, not to be antagonistic. But everything publicly stated until now has said late 2009 launch. So, by assuming 2010 <> 2009, then there has been a delay. Maybe that delay was the non tech schedule. Maybe some really smart guy they keep locked in the basement knew better. But I am going with, delayed. Maybe your point is that 2009 is not done yet. But the bird is still in the clean room in the US. The launch window posted by reliable sources says 2010 and so does Harsh. Why can't we all just move on to the 2010 date?
> 
> Well that was a long way to go for a prime Harsh said joke.


Yep, was only referring to 2009 to later in 2010.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

bakers12 said:


> 2010
> Date - Satellite(s) - Rocket/Upper stage - Cosmodrome - Time
> January 15 - TBD - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
> beginning of February - Intelsat 16 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
> February 3 - Progress M-04M (No. 404) - Soyuz-U - Baikonur
> February 11-20 - three Kosmos (Glonass-M) satellites - Proton-M/DM-2 - Baikonur
> February 28 - CryoSat-2 - Dnepr - Baikonur
> February - Prisma (Mango), Prisma (Tango), Picard - Dnepr - Dombarovskiy
> *beginning of year - DirecTV 12 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur*
> beginning of March - EchoStar 14 - Proton-M/Briz-M - Baikonur
> 
> Anik's post shows that the DirecTV entry highlighted above was edited today. Since it's right between February and March, that gives us something.


According to my calendar the beginning of the year is January 1.


----------



## taz291819

Coca Cola Kid said:


> According to my calendar the beginning of the year is January 1.


Exactly what I was thinking. Looks like it may go in the Jan. 15th slot, since it's labeled TBD.


----------



## smiddy

I'll see what I can find out tomorrow at work.


----------



## Sixto

W7 now 11/23 (was 11/18, and prior 11/15).


----------



## dettxw

I was talking to lady today, who had been talking to a Defense & Space mukety muck, and she said that DirecTV 12 had been delivered!

And that she had pics in slides! :eek2:

Dang it, she had her satellites mixed up. 
She was really thinking about the 3rd SATCOM bird that was delivered to the Cape.

Got me all excited over nothing. :lol:


----------



## dettxw

Excuse me for being slightly off-topic, and this has likely been posted before, but may be new to some.

Link to a graphical representation of the Commercial Communications satellites in Geosynchronous Orbit:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/980031_001.pdf

The graphic sure makes it "look" crowded up there! I'm going to have to rummage back thru the thread and see where DirecTV 12 is going to be parked.


----------



## LameLefty

dettxw said:


> The graphic sure makes it "look" crowded up there! I'm going to have to rummage back thru the thread and see where DirecTV 12 is going to be parked.


Check the first post. 

Sixto is doing an excellent job keeping track of the information as it comes to light and always keeps it up to date.


----------



## smiddy

dettxw said:


> Excuse me for being slightly off-topic, and this has likely been posted before, but may be new to some.
> 
> Link to a graphical representation of the Commercial Communications satellites in Geosynchronous Orbit:
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/980031_001.pdf
> 
> The graphic sure makes it "look" crowded up there! I'm going to have to rummage back thru the thread and see where DirecTV 12 is going to be parked.


Look at the Asian sky, whoa! I saw this a while back and figured someone here had it already.


----------



## Newshawk

dettxw said:


> Excuse me for being slightly off-topic, and this has likely been posted before, but may be new to some.
> 
> Link to a graphical representation of the Commercial Communications satellites in Geosynchronous Orbit:
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/launch/980031_001.pdf
> 
> The graphic sure makes it "look" crowded up there! I'm going to have to rummage back thru the thread and see where DirecTV 12 is going to be parked.


They goofed! The have DirecTV 11 at 101w, not 99W.


----------



## dettxw

Newshawk said:


> They goofed! The have DirecTV 11 at 101w, not 99W.


It's dated July this year, plenty of time to have gotten it right.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, I've deleted several posts that were both rude and non-informational. If you have an issue with one of our members, you can choose to report the post, or engage him in private messaging. Rudeness will not be tolerated.


----------



## RAD

In the latest 10-Q filing there's the one line about D12"

_"DIRECTV 12 is under construction and is expected to be ready for launch in the fourth quarter of 2009."_


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> In the latest 10-Q filing there's the one line about D12"
> 
> _"DIRECTV 12 is under construction and is expected to be ready for launch in the fourth quarter of 2009."_


Thanks. Was looking for that 10-Q last night, was just posted. Thx.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Thanks. Was looking for that 10-Q last night, was just posted. Thx.


So does that mean there is still a chance for a 4Q launch?

Seems to contradict some of the earlier posts pushing into January...


----------



## oldfantom

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So does that mean there is still a chance for a 4Q launch?
> 
> Seems to contradict some of the earlier posts pushing into January...


I think that this is MAYBE a case of plans and reality having a conflict. At the time the 10Q was written the plan was Q4. I imagine, the plan is and always has been to launch as soon as technically and economically practical.

The first part is obvious, they have to get the Sat ready to go.

I think the economics involve what I perceive as the cost of the launch window. It appears that the facility and other clients are willing to trade up and down, probably for $$. So if a company offered you a few million for your spot, and you delayed 1 month, would you do it. Would you pay a few million to slot into Dec? That last part is of course pure speculation.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So does that mean there is still a chance for a 4Q launch?
> 
> Seems to contradict some of the earlier posts pushing into January...


Conflicting reports.

Some we can quote, some we can't.

Some still say Q4, others say 2010.

Will not know for sure until an official announcement, which may not occur until after the W7 launch, when hopefully we should see who's next.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV Interim CEO (11/5/2009): "our next satellite D12, which becomes operational in the first half of next year. This new satellite will also increase DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50% to over 200 national channels."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/171671-directv-group-inc-q3-2009-earnings-conference-call?page=-1​
Edit: This is the same comment as from 8/6/2009.

Post#1 updated.


----------



## CorpITGuy

Sixto said:


> DirecTV Interim CEO (11/5/2009): "our next satellite D12, which becomes operational in the first half of next year. This new satellite will also increase DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50% to over 200 national channels."
> 
> http://seekingalpha.com/article/171671-directv-group-inc-q3-2009-earnings-conference-call?page=-1​First reference I've seen to "first half".
> 
> Post#1 updated.


Oh, crap. That doesn't sound good at all.


----------



## cdhinch

CorpITGuy said:


> Oh, crap. That doesn't sound good at all.


I think the keyword to look at here is "*Operational*". A launch in December or January wouldn't be operational immediately. It would take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months to become operational, depending on what testing has to be done. I don't see anywhere in that statement that would indicate the launch being pushed back.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cdhinch said:


> I think the keyword to look at here is "*Operational*". A launch in December or January wouldn't be operational immediately. It would take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months to become operational, depending on what testing has to be done. I don't see anywhere in that statement that would indicate the launch being pushed back.


Yes - key points!


----------



## Sixto

cdhinch said:


> I think the keyword to look at here is "*Operational*". A launch in December or January wouldn't be operational immediately. It would take anywhere from a couple of weeks to a couple of months to become operational, depending on what testing has to be done. I don't see anywhere in that statement that would indicate the launch being pushed back.


We've always assumed a 60-120 day launch to operational window.

D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.

D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about a 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.

Update: looks like the "first half" comment is exactly the same as from August(!):8/6/2009: "and the launching of our satellite D12 which when operational in the first half of 2010, will increase our HD capacity by 50% to over 200 national channels."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/154517-the-directv-group-q2-2009-earnings-transcript?page=-1​


----------



## Sixto

We continue to check a number a sites. Here's another regularly checked:"Beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner. As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely.)"

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2010.html​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It's sure looking like a January launch now...


----------



## tadam

For the experts out there, will this new satellite enable a better picture for all HD channels, current and future? What I mean by that is it seems Directv compresses their HD channels and although they look OK, I think they could be better.

Thoughts?


----------



## bobnielsen

tadam said:


> For the experts out there, will this new satellite enable a better picture for all HD channels, current and future? What I mean by that is it seems Directv compresses their HD channels and although they look OK, I think they could be better.
> 
> Thoughts?


They will be compressed in any case. With the projected 200 channels it should be about the same as it is currently, with 5 channels per transponder.


----------



## Herdfan

Last night I saw one of the DirecTV ads with the Cableco board. It said D* would soon have over 200 HD channels. That has to be a nod to D*12 and its capacity.


----------



## sum_random_dork

Herdfan said:


> Last night I saw one of the DirecTV ads with the Cableco board. It said D* would soon have over 200 HD channels. That has to be a nod to D*12 and its capacity.


I was thinking the same thing, the ads started to run this weekend. So I am guessing everything is looking good. The only thing is they say "soon" DirecTV will have 200 channels, no date set yet.


----------



## HoTat2

sum_random_dork said:


> I was thinking the same thing, the ads started to run this weekend. *So I am guessing everything is looking good.* The only thing is they say "soon" DirecTV will have 200 channels, no date set yet.


I agree as well, "everything is looking good" right now even if D12's launch from Baikonur ultimately comes down to sometime early next year.

Though I'm nevertheless ever mindful that in this business "looking good" at this point when the satellite is still on the ground is highly anticipatory of a successful launch and injection into transfer orbit.

Then once on station a successful deployment of all antennas and checkout of internal systems before we can truly say "looooking good" as Freddie Prinze Sr. used to popularly say on the old "Chico and the Man" sitcom.


----------



## Sixto

Filed today (11/09/2009):For earth station E090025: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777928

Page-10: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests authority to add the DIRECTV 9S satellite at the 101 WL orbital location, the DIRECTV 11 satellite at the 99 WL orbital location, and the DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch later this year to the 103 WL orbital location, as Points of Communication."

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777937​
For earth Station E090024: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests that DIRECTV 12, a new Ka-band satellite to be launched later this year to the nominal 103 WL orbital location, be added as a point of communication for this earth station. The application for DIRECTV 12 (IBFS File No. SAT-LOA-20090807-00086) is currently pending, and launch is expected in the fourth quarter of this year. Grant of this application will ensure that DIRECTV can communicate with this satellite as soon as it is launched."

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777922

Page-10: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests authority to add the DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch later this year to the 103 WL orbital location, as a Point of Communication."

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777939​
Post#1 updated!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Filed today (11/09/2009): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777928


Interesting....still referring to launching "this year"....


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting....still referring to launching "this year"....


Yep.


----------



## jrodfoo

speculation continues  I love it. Thanks for the update, Sixto!


----------



## woj027

hmmm I wonder what "scheduled for launch later this year" actually means? 

no matter what, I'll be happy when it's up there and sending 200 HD channels to my home.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

woj027 said:


> hmmm I wonder what "scheduled for launch later this year" actually means?
> 
> no matter what, *I'll be happy when it's up there and sending 200 HD channels to my home.*


That's what this thread is ultimately all about...


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's what this thread is ultimately all about...


Really, because I had the impression it was about orbital mechanics and the logistics of getting an impressive satellite such as this on its way to those orbital mechanics. Everything you highlighted there is the gravy we all desire.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Really, because I had the impression it was about orbital mechanics and the logistics of getting an impressive satellite such as this on its way to those orbital mechanics. Everything you highlighted there is the gravy we all desire.


Darn propellerheads....:lol:


----------



## RAD

www.twitter.com/directv is referring folks to this thread for D12 info,

_"@CMSB Details are still being finalized but you can find some D12 info here: http://bit.ly/2PzBk5"_

Update:To clearify the link actually is for the first post in this thread, just shows that DirecTV really respects this site IMHO.


----------



## dennisj00

Before everyone takes the time to copy and paste the url, it's the first post of this thread.


----------



## Sixto

Our friends in Russia still state "after January", despite today's FCC Filing.

Interesting to see how this plays out ...


----------



## dettxw

Let's just hope that they're not waiting until the 2-year anniversary of the delivery of DirecTV 11 (which was 25 Jan 2008) to deliver DirecTV 12! :lol:


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Our friends in Russia still state "after January", despite today's FCC Filing.
> 
> Interesting to see how this plays out ...


I'm pretty sure those paperwork been originaly created/filed a couple months before last changes at Baikonur, not the PDF files.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure those paperwork been originaly created/filed a couple months before last changes at Baikonur, not the PDF files.


P., I would tend to agree but "this year" is actually in the basic application (page-10), in addition to the backup attachment(s).

They needed to fill out an application (page-10): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777939

Just seems weird to fill out an application, so near year-end, and state "this year", unless you still had some confidence in "this year".


----------



## P Smith

I'm trust Anik in this case.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> I'm trust Anik in this case.


Unfortunately, me too. He's in country closest to info.


----------



## HoTat2

BTW, though academic;

Where specifically are earth stations "E090024" and "E090025" located anyway?


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> BTW, though academic;
> 
> Where specifically are earth stations "E090024" and "E090025" located anyway?


E090024 (CBC):3800 Via Oro Ave
Los Angeles, CA, 90810​
E090025 (LABC):12800 Culver Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA, 90066​


----------



## kevinwmsn

Sixto said:


> Filed today (11/09/2009):For earth station E090025: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777928
> 
> Page-10: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests authority to add the DIRECTV 9S satellite at the 101 WL orbital location, the DIRECTV 11 satellite at the 99 WL orbital location, and the DIRECTV 12 satellite, scheduled for launch later this year to the 103 WL orbital location, as Points of Communication."
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=777937​​




Was 9S a spare at 101 or what was its role before this FCC document? What will 9S add to fleet at 101?​


----------



## RAD

kevinwmsn said:


> Was 9S a spare at 101 or what was its role before this FCC document? What will 9S add to fleet at 101?


9S has a Ka band payload on it beside the Ku payload and it used for backhaul purposes. Looks like they're just looking for authority to use these new earthstations for 9S, other then that no change with 9S.


----------



## LameLefty

kevinwmsn said:


> Was 9S a spare at 101 or what was its role before this FCC document? What will 9S add to fleet at 101?


Directv 9S has been at 101 since it began operations. It has a Ka-band payload (FCC callsign S2689) used for backhaul operations.


----------



## lwilli201

It is interesting that the FCC filing dated yesterday says that D12 will be launched later this year.

By the way, what is a Point of Communication and why is D11 included in this filing? Isn't it fully operational and licensed?


----------



## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> It is interesting that the FCC filing dated yesterday says that D12 will be launched later this year.
> 
> By the way, what is a Point of Communication and why is D11 included in this filing? Isn't it fully operational and licensed?


Earth stations that communicate with satellites need to indicate all the points of communication (satellites) they stream data to or from.

The dishes on our roofs are covered under a blanket waiver, otherwise they would also have to be listed--individually. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boufa

The "later this year" reference in the FCC filings most likely translates to "no earlier than later this year" Since there is no specific information, they are simply putting a time to the beginning window of the need for approval.

It would not be unlikely that the date is simply a nod to the earlier plan to launch prior to the end of the year. If for some reason the launch date moves up sooner, they would not have the proper FCC paperwork in place... however if the launch date slips, then no big deal, since it was already approved.

I would not read anything into it.


----------



## anik

Two launches of Proton-M rockets are scheduled in December: with three Glonass-M satellites - on December 14th or 18th, and with Raduga-1M satellite - on December 24th or 29th (backup date is January 15, 2010).

I re-asked my source many times about DirecTV 12, but the answer was always that there is no this launch before February 2010.

There are two weeks till the moment when we shall know exactly what and when is after Eutelsat W7 - DirecTV 12 or Intelsat 16. Patience, please!


----------



## LameLefty

And to add to what Anik's sources tell him, realize that the Federal Communications Commission has yet to act on Directv's pending applications for RB-2A/Directv 12. That will likely come several weeks before any launch, and possibly sooner. 

So until launch and operate authority is granted, there's no point in even really worrying about anything happening in the immediate near-term.


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Earth stations that communicate with satellites need to indicate all the points of communication (satellites) they stream data to or from.
> 
> The dishes on our roofs are covered under a blanket waiver, otherwise they would also have to be listed--individually.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I really thought the FCC is primarily (if not solely) concerned with any RF transmission equipment who's precise transmitted signal characteristics must then be specified to the FCC in license application and in turn conform to the restrictions of the awarded license if granted.

However, receive only systems such as our roof dishes or terrestrial reception antennas does not really interest the FCC with the possible exception of maybe a radio receiver's L.O. characteristics or something.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> I really thought the FCC is primarily (if not solely) concerned with any RF transmission equipment who's precise transmitted signal characteristics must then be specified to the FCC in license application and in turn conform to the restrictions of the awarded license if granted.
> 
> However, receive only systems such as our roof dishes or terrestrial reception antennas does not really interest the FCC with the possible exception of maybe a radio receiver's L.O. characteristics or something.


I wouldn't say so; number of 'roof dishes' define appropriate license fee to FCC plus interference with other RF device on Earth, plus SAR, etc.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> I really thought the FCC is primarily (if not solely) concerned with any RF transmission equipment who's precise transmitted signal characteristics must then be specified to the FCC in license application and in turn conform to the restrictions of the awarded license if granted.
> 
> However, receive only systems such as our roof dishes or terrestrial reception antennas does not really interest the FCC with the possible exception of maybe a radio receiver's L.O. characteristics or something.


Some of this gets deeper into the FCC rules than I specifically know. For instance does the FCC get into receive-only antennas of terrestrial signals? (Though they do get somewhat involved via OTARD and SHERVA.)

What they do get into is the characteristics of space to earth transmissions and there are always some mentions of blanket waivers for the earth stations for the home or business reception.

For backhauling, I'm pretty sure I've seen listings of specific receive dishes at the regional and national broadcast centers. A lot of that is to characterize the transmission signal and location--but they may need to approve the receive only earth stations.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I'm confused the FCC filing says launch is this year but the CEO said next year. Which is it? Are they ever going to get an exact date assigned, or at least a month?

What does Ed Begley Jr mean by D* will "soon" have capacity for 200 HD channels?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm confused the FCC filing says launch is this year but the CEO said next year. Which is it? Are they ever going to get an exact date assigned, or at least a month?
> 
> What does Ed Begley Jr mean by D* will "soon" have capacity for 200 HD channels?


"Exact Dates" aren't assigned until it launches. Everything else is the "current estimate". 

The CEO said operational next year. Launching this year would still be operational next year. 

Anik and I have different sources with differing estimate dates. Sometimes there is a disconnect that he and I have had to try to reconcile. Fortunately, that is rare--and he's fun to work with. 

We'll see what the actual launch date ends up being.  (So many things can still cause delays at this point, let's hope none of them actually cause a delay...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm confused the FCC filing says launch is this year but the CEO said next year. Which is it? Are they ever going to get an exact date assigned, or at least a month?
> 
> What does Ed Begley Jr mean by D* will "soon" have capacity for 200 HD channels?


Did you miss the post ?


anik said:


> Two launches of Proton-M rockets are scheduled in December: with three Glonass-M satellites - on December 14th or 18th, and with Raduga-1M satellite - on December 24th or 29th (backup date is January 15, 2010).
> 
> I re-asked my source many times about *DirecTV 12*, but the answer was always that there is *no this launch before February 2010*.
> 
> There are two weeks till the moment when we shall know exactly what and when is after Eutelsat W7 - DirecTV 12 or Intelsat 16. Patience, please!


----------



## Sixto

This just changed:http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html​
Was (last few weeks):"Beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner. As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely.)"​
Now (as of today):"Dec. 24 or Dec 29 or beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner). As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely. For a December 2009 launch window, the DirecTV mission conflicted with Proton's federal launch (see above), which was likely to get priority over a commercial payload. At the same time, the DirecTV mission was under pressure to launch before the end of 2009, in order to use an unusual launch azimuth enabling reaching an initial parking orbit with the inclination 48 degrees toward the Equator, agreed with the government of Kazakhstan. Even though different launch pads were available for two missions, the personnel availability would normally require a five-day break between Proton launches."​


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I like it. A little eggnog and a launch on the 24th. That would rule…!


----------



## Newshawk

It'd be a GREAT birthday present for me! (Yes, I was a Christmas Eve baby!)


----------



## P Smith

> Dec. 25 or Dec 30: A Proton K/Block DM-2 to launch a Globus military communications satellite from Baikonur, or, less likely, a GLONASS mission (see 2010 manifest). (Postponed from July and Aug. 28, 2008)


Unfortunately there is other launch ( seems to me it is priority ) and that 5 days break would push D12 to Jan'10. Reading original site news...


----------



## bakers12

Russianspaceweb.com makes it sound like a 48 degree inclination is a good thing. I realize that this isn't a Sea Launch where zero degrees is closer to possible, but is this a big improvement over a typical launch from Baikonur?


----------



## knoxbh

Me too - another great birthday present!!! Sometimes being born the day before XMas has its drawbacks since its much easier to have all of the presents (or none,as has happened at times in the past - being born in 1924 already had family financial setbacks and then the 1929 depression didn't help). But D12 will help the 85th celebration a little more pleasant.


----------



## P Smith

bakers12 said:


> Russianspaceweb.com makes it sound like a 48 degree inclination is a good thing. I realize that this isn't a Sea Launch where zero degrees is closer to possible, but is this a big improvement over a typical launch from Baikonur?


Yes. But that route was cumbersome as it become fly over China territory pretty quickly.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Unfortunately there is other launch ( seems to me it is priority ) and that 5 days break would push D12 to Jan'10.


Did you actually read this part?



Sixto said:


> Now (as of today):"Dec. 24 or Dec 29 or beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner). As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely. For a December 2009 launch window, the DirecTV mission conflicted with Proton's federal launch (see above), which was likely to get priority over a commercial payload. At the same time, the DirecTV mission was under pressure to launch before the end of 2009, in order to use an unusual launch azimuth enabling reaching an initial parking orbit with the inclination 48 degrees toward the Equator, *agreed with the government of Kazakhstan. *Even though different launch pads were available for two missions, the personnel availability would normally require a five-day break between Proton launches."​


That makes it sound like Kazakhstan supports Directv's position. In that case, the Russian federal government and the government of Kazakhstan will have to work things out.


----------



## LameLefty

bakers12 said:


> Russianspaceweb.com makes it sound like a 48 degree inclination is a good thing. I realize that this isn't a Sea Launch where zero degrees is closer to possible, but is this a big improvement over a typical launch from Baikonur?





P Smith said:


> Yes. But that route was cumbersome as it become fly over China territory pretty quickly.


Dropping hypergolic stages (e.g., extremely toxic waste) onto another country is never a very good thing.

Now, that said, the parking orbit inclination should, ideally, be as close to zero as possible to minimize the post-launch maneuvering necessary. However, a large enough and capable enough booster can overcome a high inclination parking orbit.

A related factor is not just the inclination of the parking orbit, but also the latitude of the launch site. Launching a spacecraft into an orbit inclined higher or lower than the latitude of the launch site affects the payload capability of the booster. The lower the latitude of the launch site (e.g., the closer it is to the equator), the more the earth's rotation helps eastward launches. What gives Sea-Launch the ability to loft heavy spacecraft onto geosynchronous transfer trajectories using what is not a very heavy booster is the fact that it launches from the equator. In fact, low latitude launch sites are so useful that Arianespace launches from French Guyana, which is way the heck away from Europe. And Arianepace and Russian space authorities have been cooperating on the construction of a brand new launch pad for Soyuz boosters from the site too; they are willing to pay the overhead costs of hundreds of millions of euros for construction, plus shipping boosters a quarter of the way around the world for every launch, just to get the better payload capacity that launches from a near-equatorial site gives them.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Now (as of today):"Dec. 24 or Dec 29 or beginning of 2010: A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. (Delayed from late September 2009 by the payload owner). As of mid-October 2009, the officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely. For a December 2009 launch window, the DirecTV mission conflicted with Proton's federal launch (see above), which was likely to get priority over a commercial payload. *At the same time, the DirecTV mission was under pressure to launch before the end of 2009, in order to use an unusual launch azimuth enabling reaching an initial parking orbit with the inclination 48 degrees toward the Equator, agreed with the government of Kazakhstan. *Even though different launch pads were available for two missions, the personnel availability would normally require a five-day break between Proton launches."​


I don't get it;

What does the specific timing of a launch (in this case before the end of 2009) have to do with achieving a certain orbital inclination for the initial parking orbit (in this case 48 degrees)?


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> I don't get it;
> 
> What does the specific timing of a launch (in this case before the end of 2009) have to do with achieving a certain orbital inclination for the initial parking orbit (in this case 48 degrees)?


I think it is the agreement with Kazakhstan timing that is important.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> I think it is the agreement with Kazakhstan timing that is important.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


So Kazak launch authorities are willing to grant DirecTV's desire for a special 48 degree inclination transfer orbit if launched before the end of 2009 whereas afterwards in 2010 they won't?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> I don't get it;
> 
> What does the specific timing of a launch (in this case before the end of 2009) have to do with achieving a certain orbital inclination for the initial parking orbit (in this case 48 degrees)?


I would guess it has to do with tracking assets being in the proper places at the proper times for telemetry. The Briz-M upper stage has a pretty complicated post-launch series of maneuvers it has to perform to get a good GTO out of launch from such a northern site. That requires excellent guidance, navigation and control to manage efficiently over a several hour period. In addition, the satellite has to be deposited into the correct trajectory at the correct time/date for Boeing/Directv to assume control after separation from the Briz-M. It's not enough that the target insertion orbit is the right shape (apogee, perigee, inclination, eccentricity), but it also has to have the correct phase such that the apogee and perigee occur over specific points of the earth, which continues to revolve below the orbit. So, as they say, timing is everything.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> So Kazak launch authorities are willing to grant DirecTV's desire for a special 48 degree inclination transfer orbit if launched before the end of 2009 whereas afterwards in 2010 they won't?


That would require another fee... 

I'm only guessing. We'll see when the bird flies.


----------



## Ernie

bakers12 said:


> Russianspaceweb.com makes it sound like a 48 degree inclination is a good thing. I realize that this isn't a Sea Launch where zero degrees is closer to possible, but is this a big improvement over a typical launch from Baikonur?


Not much. The normal launch from Baikonur (for a GEO launch) results in an inclination of 51.6 degrees. However, it would still result in a modest reduction in fuel requirements for circularizing the orbit.

Ernie


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Okay so they're launching D12 on Christmas Eve now?


----------



## Drew2k

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Okay so they're launching D12 on Christmas Eve now?


Maybe. It's not settled yet. Dates of 12/28 and 12/29 were also posted upstream, and of course it could still be January or later. Depends on agreements that need to be reached ...


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> In that case, the Russian federal government and the government of Kazakhstan will have to work things out.


Riiiiight - right after Middle East is at peace, and monkeys fly out of my ^#$%^#$^%#^#$^


----------



## P Smith

hancox said:


> Riiiiight - right after Middle East is at peace, and monkeys fly out of my ^#$%^#$^%#^#$^


You mean from China ?  As the 48 inclination required ...


----------



## bakers12

Ernie said:


> Not much. The normal launch from Baikonur (for a GEO launch) results in an inclination of 51.6 degrees. However, it would still result in a modest reduction in fuel requirements for circularizing the orbit.
> 
> Ernie


Any little bit will help. Thanks for the info.


----------



## dettxw

I'm assuming that the DirecTV12 delivery will be a news item as it has been in the past.
Haven't heard of a delivery yet.
So I haven't seen any delivery news, nothing today as of the 0630 CDT update. 
Next News update at 1330 CDT. 

I was wondering, how much time is required between delivery and a land launch for preparation? 
In other words I was wondering in what time frame we could really expect delivery news.


----------



## LameLefty

dettxw said:


> I was wondering, how much time is required between delivery and a land launch for preparation?
> In other words I was wondering in what time frame we could really expect delivery news.


A good rule of thumb is that all acceptance tests and final QA checks for a pre-packaged spacecraft should be completed about a month to six weeks in advance of the best-estimate of launch date. That gives schedule flexibility of several weeks one way or the other if something . . . untoward . . . happens (like a few years ago when Lockheed Martin dropped a spacecraft when moving it :sure.

In any event, I would say that if we don't hear anything from Boeing and/or the FCC by the end of this month, we won't see D12/RB-2A launch by the end of the year.


----------



## dettxw

LameLefty said:


> A good rule of thumb is that all acceptance tests and final QA checks for a pre-packaged spacecraft should be completed about a month to six weeks in advance of the best-estimate of launch date. That gives schedule flexibility of several weeks one way or the other if something . . . untoward . . . happens (like a few years ago when Lockheed Martin dropped a spacecraft when moving it :sure.
> 
> In any event, I would say that if we don't hear anything from Boeing and/or the FCC by the end of this month, we won't see D12/RB-2A launch by the end of the year.


Well, it could be argued that today Friday the 13th is unlikely, especially as it hasn't already been announced,
and week after next is a short one what with Thanksgiving (Boeing off Thursday and Friday) and lots of people taking extra time off to make a week out of it, 
Looks like that leaves next week for a November delivery (or not).


----------



## Ernie

P Smith said:


> You mean from China ?  As the 48 inclination required ...


The limiting factor seems to be the debris field from the second stage and faring "splashdown". It is about 2000 Km from Baikonur. For the 51.6 inclination launch, that is in southern Russia, north of Mongolia. A 48 degree launch looks to me like to much closer to Mongolia or perhaps even inside Mongolia. Perhaps they cut a deal with Mongolia. This is gleaned from this page:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikonur_downrange.html

and

http://www.scribd.com/doc/16925269/Russias-Proton-Mission-Planners-Guide-1999

Ernie


----------



## HoTat2

Ernie said:


> Not much. The normal launch from Baikonur (for a GEO launch) results in an inclination of 51.6 degrees. *However, it would still result in a modest reduction in fuel requirements for circularizing the orbit.*
> 
> Ernie


Since the fuel requirements to actually "circularize" an orbit should be identical for the same booster capabilities irrespective of inclination, I assume you are factoring in the less amount of additional fuel necessary for reducing the orbital inclination down to approx. 0 degrees from a lower inclination in the overall process of "circularizing the orbit" for a geostationary satellite?


----------



## LameLefty

Directv has filed some requests to move D10 and Spaceway 1 around in the 103W slot today.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-294638A1.pdf


----------



## bakers12

So DirecTV wants to cut the station-keeping tolerance in half to 0.025 degrees. I wonder if that would have been possible before XIPS engines.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bakers12 said:


> So DirecTV wants to cut the station-keeping tolerance in half to 0.025 degrees. I wonder if that would have been possible before XIPS engines.


Good point.

Realistically, probably not. Doable? Yes. Very expensive? Very yes. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Ernie said:


> The limiting factor seems to be the debris field from the second stage and faring "splashdown". It is about 2000 Km from Baikonur. For the 51.6 inclination launch, that is in southern Russia, north of Mongolia. A 48 degree launch looks to me like to much closer to Mongolia or perhaps even inside Mongolia. Perhaps they cut a deal with Mongolia. This is gleaned from this page:
> http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikonur_downrange.html
> 
> and
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/16925269/Russias-Proton-Mission-Planners-Guide-1999
> 
> Ernie


Sorry, if I touching your soft spot ( Geography), but the 48 degree route going thru CHINA!


----------



## Ernie

HoTat2 said:


> Since the fuel requirements to actually "circularize" an orbit should be identical for the same booster capabilities irrespective of inclination, I assume you are factoring in the less amount of additional fuel necessary for reducing the orbital inclination down to approx. 0 degrees from a lower inclination in the overall process of "circularizing the orbit" for a geostationary satellite?


Your assumption is correct. I couldn't think of a word that included both orbital inclination reduction and circularization, so I just said "circularize" to cover both processes.

Ernie


----------



## Ernie

P Smith said:


> Sorry, if I touching your soft spot ( Geography), but the 48 degree route going thru CHINA!


I'm not sure of the exact launch azimuth to get to a orbtical inclination of 48 degrees. Extrapolating from the 51.6 inclination (azimuth of 61.3) and the 64.8 inclination (azimuth of 31), I get a launch azimuth of 69.3 degrees. That path passes just north of the Russia/Chinese border, and the 2000 km distance (where the second stage should land) seems to be in Mongolia at 49 degrees 10 minutes North and 90 degrees East.

Just my guesstimate.

Ernie


----------



## HoTat2

Ernie said:


> I'm not sure of the exact launch azimuth to get to a orbtical inclination of 48 degrees. Extrapolating from the 51.6 inclination (azimuth of 61.3) and the 64.8 inclination (azimuth of 31), I get a launch azimuth of 69.3 degrees. That path passes just north of the Russia/Chinese border, and the 2000 km distance (where the second stage should land) seems to be in Mongolia at 49 degrees 10 minutes North and 90 degrees East.
> 
> Just my guesstimate.
> 
> Ernie


Perhaps launching to a lower inclination orbit than the launch site's latitude involves a type of "dog-leg" maneuver comprising a due easterly or 90 degree launch azimuth followed by a plane changing maneuver of yawing during the spacecraft's accent or performing a normal (perpendicular) plane change burn from an initially higher inclination.

Found this on another discussion forum:

*Question: "I heard of a way of inserting into an orbital inclination lower than the latitude, Azimuth should work?"

Answer: "No, actually it does not - what you can do, and what is done in reality is a so called dog-leg maneuver. You launch at 90° azimuth and when you cross the plane of your target orbit, you make a plane correction, either by yawing during ascent or by a normnal plane change burn. The Ariane V eg launches at 5° latitude - for getting into zero inclination, they launch in a so well timed way, that the apogee of the GTO is right on the equator, so the satellites only have to do a small plane correction during GSO insertion."

*


----------



## cartrivision

I noticed that DirecTV's TV commercials are now including statements that assume a successful launch of D12.... "soon DirecTV will have increased capacity for up to 200 HD channels".


----------



## RAD

cartrivision said:


> I noticed that DirecTV's TV commercials are now including statements that assume a successful launch of D12.... "soon DirecTV will have increased capacity for up to 200 HD channels".


Hell, they were doing that type of ad before Spaceway 1 even made it up, guess old habits are hard to break.


----------



## oldfantom

It might have been Wired magazine's PBS show, but I was watching something on the cost of sending up a satellite. The basic premise was it was darned expensive because the alternative is renting space on somebody else's bird. So the question I have is if there is something else in the sky that would be available as a rental fallback should D12 go down in flames? What did Dish do? Is it even apples to Orange with Dish's situation? After all, D* has nothing left in the pipeline that we know about and they can't not expand at this point. Just random questions/thoughts in my head.


----------



## LameLefty

Ahem. I think I may have figured out why Directv is in no apparent hurry to launch D12 and may have been willing to be persuaded to swap launch slots with Eutelsat for November . . .

We've all been paying so much attention to the FCC D12-related filings that we have overlooked things on the RB-2A side (which, after all, has its own unique space station call sign and is treated as a separate entity for FCC purposes).

It seems that Ciel, a Canadian entity licensed by Canadian authorities to provide BSS-band services from the 103 W slot, has commented to the FCC and requested that Directv shouldn't be granted launch and operate authority for RB-2A. We've missed quite the flurry of paper back and forth:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ts?f_key=-173036&f_number=SATLOA2009080700085

In particular, this document sets things out pretty clearly:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=779454

Ciel's argument is basically that the ITU granted BSS rights to Canada from 103 W before it did so to the United States, and therefore, essentially, Ciel should be permitted to blanket the entire North American continent with BSS transmissions rather than be configured to limit itself to Canadian territory. Of course, Directv disputes this interpretation of things.

But while this stuff gets sorted out, Directv may be holding off until the FCC issues a definitive ruling.

EDITED TO ADD: There's also a petition from a company called Spectrum Five that has to do with the technical basis for Directv's license application for BSS transmissions that may take even longer to sort out. Here's the link for that one:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=773375


----------



## woj027

LameLefty said:


> Ahem. I think I may have figured out why Directv is in no apparent hurry to launch D12 and may have been willing to be persuaded to swap launch slots with Eutelsat for November . . .
> 
> We've all been paying so much attention to the FCC D12-related filings that we have overlooked things on the RB-2A side (which, after all, has its own unique space station call sign and is treated as a separate entity for FCC purposes).
> 
> It seems that Ciel, a Canadian entity licensed by Canadian authorities to provide BSS-band services from the 103 W slot, has commented to the FCC and requested that Directv shouldn't be granted launch and operate authority for RB-2A. We've missed quite the flurry of paper back and forth:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ts?f_key=-173036&f_number=SATLOA2009080700085
> 
> In particular, this document sets things out pretty clearly:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=779454
> 
> Ciel's argument is basically that the ITU granted BSS rights to Canada from 103 W before it did so to the United States, and therefore, essentially, Ciel should be permitted to blanket the entire North American continent with BSS transmissions rather than be configured to limit itself to Canadian territory. Of course, Directv disputes this interpretation of things.
> 
> But while this stuff gets sorted out, Directv may be holding off until the FCC issues a definitive ruling.


Lets say for discussion sake that Ciel win's their argument and that DirecTV cannot use BSS rights from 103. Would this mean that

1. DirecTV might move D12/RB-2A to another location?
or
2. DirecTV would have Boeing remove the BSS hardware and install other transmission hardware and put D12 at 103?

or

3. Are there other technical issues that would come into play?


----------



## LameLefty

woj027 said:


> Lets say for discussion sake that Ciel win's their argument and that DirecTV cannot use BSS rights from 103. Would this mean that
> 
> 1. DirecTV might move D12/RB-2A to another location?
> or
> 2. DirecTV would have Boeing remove the BSS hardware and install other transmission hardware and put D12 at 103?
> 
> or
> 
> 3. Are there other technical issues that would come into play?


My gut reaction is they'd probably just do the equivalent of pulling a few circuit breakers on the satellite and launch. They definitely will not move the slot since they already have an unequivocal Ka authorization for the slot and that's the payload that's of most importance. If/when things get fully sorted out, they would activate the payload for testing and eventual use.

However, I'm sure the financial and legal teams would prefer to have a definitive ruling before they launch. This is ESPECIALLY important since Ciel is obviously going to try to raise this same nonsensical objection for all the pending BSS operators, not just Directv. Those satellites are required by law to be built and operational within five years of FCC authorization, and that's a lot of money to invest.


----------



## woj027

Thats kinda what I was thinking would most likely happen, but most of you read the entire documents and follow this much more closely.

This may be the whole reason why it hasn't left Boeing.

That prompts another question. Lets say a Satellite is ready to go, where is the best place for it to wait? At the manufacturer? In a cargo container somewhere? At the launch facility?


----------



## LameLefty

woj027 said:


> Thats kinda what I was thinking would most likely happen, but most of you read the entire documents and follow this much more closely.
> 
> This may be the whole reason why it hasn't left Boeing.
> 
> That prompts another question. Lets say a Satellite is ready to go, where is the best place for it to wait? At the manufacturer? In a cargo container somewhere? At the launch facility?


Commercial payloads nearly always wait in a climate-controlled clean room facility until it's time for pre-launch processing. They are then generally encapsulated for flight, packed into an airborne shipping container and sent to the launch provider. That provider then provides short-term storage (a few weeks to a month, more or less) while the booster and upper stages are tested out and integrated and the satellite is mounted to the upper stage and the launch fairing is installed over it.


----------



## sigma1914

Dumb question: How big is the actual satellite that is put in orbit?


----------



## LameLefty

sigma1914 said:


> Dumb question: How big is the actual satellite that is put in orbit?


Pretty big with the antennas and solar arrays deployed .

8m high, 7.3m wide, 48.1m long.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> Pretty big with the antennas and solar arrays deployed .
> 
> 8m high, 7.3m wide, 48.1m long.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html


Cool link, thanks!


----------



## lwilli201

LameLefty said:


> Commercial payloads nearly always wait in a climate-controlled clean room facility until it's time for pre-launch processing. They are then generally encapsulated for flight, packed into an airborne shipping container and sent to the launch provider. That provider then provides short-term storage (a few weeks to a month, more or less) while the booster and upper stages are tested out and integrated and the satellite is mounted to the upper stage and the launch fairing is installed over it.


It is my understanding that the shipping container is also climate-controlled. The climate-contol is maintained until just before launch. It would make sense that the satellite will be at or close to the temperature and humidity it will encounter in orbit when tested and launched.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I watched the latest Space Shuttle Atlantis launch yesterday on HDNet. I think they should televise the D12 launch on there. If not D* should air it on The 101.


----------



## lwilli201

The last Sea Launch of Directv 11 was telecast on channel 573 in SD. HD would be great but I would not count on that. I have seen proton launches streamed live on the internet. I believe that Directv showed D-10 Proton launch live.


----------



## LameLefty

lwilli201 said:


> It is my understanding that the shipping container is also climate-controlled.





> The climate-contol is maintained until just before launch. It would make sense that the satellite will be at or close to the temperature and humidity it will encounter in orbit when tested and launched.


The launch fairings for most spacecraft are indeed conditioned, but not nearly to the same conditions that the spacecraft will see on-orbit (e.g., ambient vacuum and spacecraft skin temperatures ranging from hundreds of degrees above to hundreds of degrees below zero). Typically GSE (ground support equipment) will supply air or nitrogen at around 68 degrees F and really, really low relative humidity, though this can vary depending on specific needs of the spacecraft. For instance, the aft engine compartment of the space shuttle orbiter is supplied with a constant flow of dry nitrogen to purge out oxygen and any hydrogen that may leak into the area, posing an explosion risk. Some spacecraft get a purge of cold gaseous helium or other inert gas.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> ... We've all been paying so much attention to the FCC D12-related filings that we have overlooked things on the RB-2A side (which, after all, has its own unique space station call sign and is treated as a separate entity for FCC purposes)...


Yep, hadn't looked for any comments on the RB-2A side in a while ... great find! Interesting battle going on.


----------



## barryb

Spaceflight Now is saying "late December"

http://spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html


----------



## inkahauts

LameLefty said:


> Ahem. I think I may have figured out why Directv is in no apparent hurry to launch D12 and may have been willing to be persuaded to swap launch slots with Eutelsat for November . . .
> 
> We've all been paying so much attention to the FCC D12-related filings that we have overlooked things on the RB-2A side (which, after all, has its own unique space station call sign and is treated as a separate entity for FCC purposes).
> 
> It seems that Ciel, a Canadian entity licensed by Canadian authorities to provide BSS-band services from the 103 W slot, has commented to the FCC and requested that Directv shouldn't be granted launch and operate authority for RB-2A. We've missed quite the flurry of paper back and forth:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ts?f_key=-173036&f_number=SATLOA2009080700085
> 
> In particular, this document sets things out pretty clearly:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=779454
> 
> Ciel's argument is basically that the ITU granted BSS rights to Canada from 103 W before it did so to the United States, and therefore, essentially, Ciel should be permitted to blanket the entire North American continent with BSS transmissions rather than be configured to limit itself to Canadian territory. Of course, Directv disputes this interpretation of things.
> 
> But while this stuff gets sorted out, Directv may be holding off until the FCC issues a definitive ruling.
> 
> EDITED TO ADD: There's also a petition from a company called Spectrum Five that has to do with the technical basis for Directv's license application for BSS transmissions that may take even longer to sort out. Here's the link for that one:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=773375


Swapperooo with D11 going to where they want d12 and d12 to where d11 is now? 

I have a feeling that the FCC will say bit me, and the ITU will say, uh, yeah, what they said...


----------



## PackCat

I'm sure I have none of the particuliars correct, but the thing with Ciel sounds like an issue of Political Cyber-Squatting. (p*ssing contest)
Why would they assume first dibs on taking up US airspace (broadcast capability) when they do not even have a license to broadcast in the US. That is like someone grabbing your domain name to block you. Is there something with the earth's rotation, why they cannot place their bird over Canada instead of where US Satellites are located? It's not like DirecTV can throw up a bird over Russia without a license to operate there.


----------



## twaller

PackCat said:


> I'm sure I have none of the particuliars correct, but the thing with Ciel sounds like an issue of Political Cyber-Squatting. (p*ssing contest)
> Why would they assume first dibs on taking up US airspace (broadcast capability) when they do not even have a license to broadcast in the US. That is like someone grabbing your domain name to block you. Is there something with the earth's rotation, why they cannot place their bird over Canada instead of where US Satellites are located? It's not like DirecTV can throw up a bird over Russia without a license to operate there.


A Geo satellite that covers Canada is in exactly the same place as one that covers the US. In the Clarke belt, located directly over the equator.


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> Typically GSE (ground support equipment) will supply air or nitrogen at around 68 degrees F and really, really low relative humidity, though this can vary depending on specific needs of the spacecraft.


Several years ago, I spent some time dealing with temperature and humidity control in telephone switch rooms (which, for the most part, are all electronic these days). This was critical to the telephone company, but probably not nearly as critical as spacecraft. One of the points made was that they didn't want the humidity to be too low because of the potential for arcing on electrical contacts. How do they deal with this on spacecraft?


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> It seems that Ciel, a Canadian entity licensed by Canadian authorities to provide BSS-band services from the 103 W slot, has commented to the FCC and requested that Directv shouldn't be granted launch and operate authority for RB-2A.


Does Ciel have any satellites in space, soon to be launched, or in the planning stages for the 103W slot? In other words, are they just squawking to maintain their future rights to the slot?


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> Several years ago, I spent some time dealing with temperature and humidity control in telephone switch rooms (which, for the most part, are all electronic these days). This was critical to the telephone company, but probably not nearly as critical as spacecraft. One of the points made was that they didn't want the humidity to be too low because of the potential for arcing on electrical contacts. How do they deal with this on spacecraft?


Well, the avionics of most satellites are designed to operate in vacuum. That's about as low humidity as you're gonna get.  I'm not an electronics guy (I took my two required EE classes as an undergrad and never looked back  ), but I know there are aerospace design practices and standards designed to minimize the problems of arcing and other weird problems ("tin whiskers" for instance). Now, some spacecraft, particularly older Russian ones, are designed to operate with gas-cooled components, using convection to keep things conditioned instead of the way most American/European spacecraft are designed; they use coldplates filled with flowing water, ammonia or some other fluid to keep things cool. The space shuttle orbiter is an exception to typical American practice in that it has air-cooled avionics (which is why it cannot be operated in a complete vacuum and requires an airlock for EVA operations).



bb37 said:


> Does Ciel have any satellites in space, soon to be launched, or in the planning stages for the 103W slot? In other words, are they just squawking to maintain their future rights to the slot?


As far as I know, no one has any operational BSS band satellites over North America with the exception of the experimental payload on D11.


----------



## Herdfan

For those interested in launches, the NATGEO channel has a show _World's Toughest Fixes _in which during one episode the host goes to the Arrienne lauch facility to learn about a launch.


----------



## HoTat2

bb37 said:


> Several years ago, I spent some time dealing with temperature and humidity control in telephone switch rooms (which, for the most part, are all electronic these days). This was critical to the telephone company, but probably not nearly as critical as spacecraft. *One of the points made was that they didn't want the humidity to be too low because of the potential for arcing on electrical contacts. *How do they deal with this on spacecraft?


Are you sure this last statement isn't backwards? It would seem that higher environmental humidity levels are more conducive to any equipment arcing by establishing lower electrically resistant paths due to increased moisture in the air for an arc discharge to occur.


----------



## JLucPicard

HoTat2 said:


> Are you sure this last statement isn't backwards? It would seem that higher environmental humidity levels are more conducive to any equipment arcing by establishing lower electrically resistant paths due to increased moisture in the air for an arc discharge to occur.


I am certainly no rocket scientist, but I have walked across a carpet and grabbed a doorknob more than once. Those little surprises are certainly low humidity incidents.


----------



## HoTat2

JLucPicard said:


> I am certainly no rocket scientist, but I have walked across a carpet and grabbed a doorknob more than once. Those little surprises are certainly low humidity incidents.


Well this involves electrostatic charge generation and discharge through various forms of physical contact. I'm referring to electrical arcing which can occur through through an insulating solid suffering a dielectric breakdown or a gas like the air becoming ionized and thereby conducting electricity.

And humidity or the amount of moisture in the air would seem to accentuate arcing not prevent it as the OP stated.


----------



## bb37

HoTat2 said:


> Are you sure this last statement isn't backwards?


Could be. That project was about 10 years ago. I'm sure I've killed several brain cells since then.


----------



## Gocanes

LameLefty said:


> The space shuttle orbiter is an exception to typical American practice in that it has air-cooled avionics (which is why it cannot be operated in a complete vacuum and requires an airlock for EVA operations).


I know this is a little off topic but I'm having trouble making the connection between air-cooled avionics being the reason an airlock is needed for EVA operations. Don't all spacecraft require airlocks for EVA operations?


----------



## LameLefty

Gocanes said:


> I know this is a little off topic but I'm having trouble making the connection between air-cooled avionics being the reason an airlock is needed for EVA operations. Don't all spacecraft require airlocks for EVA operations?


Nope. Gemini and Apollo didn't. Orion won't. The entire spacecraft cabin was depressurized and the hatch opened. If the shuttle were ever to lose cabin pressure, it would be stranded in orbit due to lack of cooling. If the pressure was lost early enough in reentry, the avionics would fail due to overheating and the spacecraft would lose control, tumble and break apart. The same would not have been true of Gemini or Apollo.


----------



## inkahauts

LameLefty said:


> Nope. Gemini and Apollo didn't. Orion won't. The entire spacecraft cabin was depressurized and the hatch opened. If the shuttle were ever to lose cabin pressure, it would be stranded in orbit due to lack of cooling. If the pressure was lost early enough in reentry, the avionics would fail due to overheating and the spacecraft would lose control, tumble and break apart. The same would not have been true of Gemini or Apollo.


Darn smart people.... 

This may have been a little off topic, but still very interesting! Thanks!


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> Nope. Gemini and Apollo didn't. Orion won't. The entire spacecraft cabin was depressurized and the hatch opened.


I'm old enough to remember the video of Gemini astronauts doing EVAs. Open hatch, release belts, ease out of seat through the open hatch. I'm sure there was more to the story, but it looked as easy as getting out of the cockpit on a fighter plane, maybe easier because you didn't have to swing your leg over the edge and find the first step.

Thanks for the space lessons. It's a whole different world in the near-zero gravity, no air pressure, huge temperature swings environment outside our atmosphere. When I watch the Shuttle guys doing EVAs to repair things like the Hubble, I can't help but think about the number of parts and tools I routinely drop while working on my car.


----------



## smiddy

bb37 said:


> When I watch the Shuttle guys doing EVAs to repair things like the Hubble, I can't help but think about the number of parts and tools I routinely drop while working on my car.


Tool lanyards!


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> "CONCAN" (*)
> 
> (*) Contiguous Canada - I don't know that this is a real term; I am using it as an analogy to the CONUS transponders on Directv satellites.


Couldn't help myself.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Their agenda, such that it is, is almost certainly technical. Because they are not licensed to broadcast BSS band signals into the U.S., in order to limit interference they will be required to use very, very carefully aimed and calibrated spot beams to keep their transmissions more or less "north of the border," just as Directv is doing with RB-2A to keep its signals aimed south of the border into the contiguous U.S. If the FCC were to accept Ciel's argument, it would lock Directv (and all U.S. broadcasters) out of the 103 slot for BSS band transmissions and would allow Ciel to build and operate a satellite using "CONCAN" (*) transponders blanketing all of the continent instead of carefully aimed spotbeams pointed at specific areas.
> 
> (*) Contiguous Canada - I don't know that this is a real term; I am using it as an analogy to the CONUS transponders on Directv satellites.


What I don't quite understand though is what is it specifically about the new BSS band which prohibits Canadian and US DBS providers from using the same kind of satellite frequency and transmission beam coordination procedures they have been using to supply the 12.2-12.7 Ghz Ku band DBS signal coverage into their respective countries of North America for years now?


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> What I don't quite understand though is what is it specifically about the new BSS band which prohibits Canadian and US DBS providers from using the same kind of satellite frequency and transmission beam coordination procedures they have been using to supply the 12.2-12.7 Ghz Ku band DBS signal coverage into their respective countries of North America for years now?


Specifically it was how the ITU allocated bandwidth over North America this time. Rather than having exclusive rights at slots, some slots are shared to both the US and Canadian regulatory agencies.

So Ceil, having rights at 103°, but only for Canada, either has to redesign their services (and the satellites) or redesign the licenses.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Specifically it was how the ITU allocated bandwidth over North America this time. Rather than having exclusive rights at slots, some slots are shared to both the US and Canadian regulatory agencies.
> 
> So Ceil, having rights at 103°, but only for Canada, either has to redesign their services (and the satellites) or redesign the licenses.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK thanks Tom;

I actually thought this was the case, but mistakenly assumed before posting there was precedence where DirecTV was actually sharing their 101 slot with Canadian DBS satellites. However, after a quick visit to LyngSat I see that those are neither Canadian nor DBS satellites, but AMC birds operating on the "C" and "Ku FSS" bands (11.7-12.2 GHz).

My bad...


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> ... *Rather than having exclusive rights at slots, some slots are shared to both the US and Canadian regulatory agencies.*


Come to think of it though, given such a BSS allocation scheme from the ITU where you have multiple nations sharing the same geosynchronous slots, BSS frequencies, and polarizations. Beyond maybe enlarged versions of the spotbeam approach used by RB-2A for future BSS satellites, I really now question the viability of DirecTV being able to provide true nationwide (CONUS) coverage for the BSS reverse band and yet avoid mutual interference with Canada and others or vice-versa.

I mean you certainly cannot expect to be able to engineer a radio beam to completely follow the shapeless boundary lines on a political map even approximately.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Come to think of it though, given such a BSS allocation scheme from the ITU where you have multiple nations sharing the same geosynchronous slots, BSS frequencies, and polarizations. Beyond maybe enlarged versions of the spotbeam approach used by RB-2A for future BSS satellites, I really now question the viability of DirecTV being able to provide true nationwide (CONUS) coverage for the BSS reverse band and yet avoid mutual interference with Canada and others or vice-versa.
> 
> I mean you certainly cannot expect to be able to engineer a radio beam to completely follow the shapeless boundary lines on a political map even approximately.


Given the way the ITU allocated the slots (which seems pretty screwy to me), I suspect BSS will never be able to be used for CONUS transmissions from 103 or any other shared slots. Of course, it's possible that not all the slots are shared among national authorities. If the U.S. has one or more unique slots, whatever companies are granted licenses and operational authority for them by the FCC will be able to use them for CONUS.


----------



## dettxw

Well, no D12 delivery today. 

Sure not looking good for November what with the Holiday next week. 
Pretty much confirms no 2009 launch, eh?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dettxw said:


> Well, no D12 delivery today.
> 
> Sure not looking good for November what with the Holiday next week.
> Pretty much confirms no 2009 launch, eh?


I thought someone said on here they moved it to Christmas Eve?


----------



## HRJustin

I predict that D12 will launch on December 12th. :lol: I know that it most likely wont be that early in December I just thought it would be a funny coincidence.


----------



## LameLefty

dettxw said:


> Well, no D12 delivery today.


Companies don't necessarily provide press releases the same day something happens.

Besides, it's not only satellite completion that we're waiting for news of (since that means absolutely nothing standing alone in the larger picture). We're still waiting for the FCC to act on the various BSS petitions and to grant Directv authority to launch and operate D12/RB-2A.

I suspect that when SOMETHING on any of these topics breaks, a lot more information will come out all in a rush.


----------



## anik

Today Roskosmos website (I can not show the link, because I have less than 5 posts on your forum  ) has published yesterday's interview with Vladimir Bronfman, director of program from Khrunichev enterprise.

He said: "Ноябрь заканчивается, «Дабл Ю 7» (Eutelsat W7) будет шестым коммерческим спутником, стартовавшим в этом году на «Протоне», в том числе один из пусков был для этой же компании - Eutelsat. *Данный запуск не будет последним, «крайним», как говорят ракетчики, в 2009 году. В ближайшее время запланирован еще один коммерческий запуск - это будет космический аппарат «Директ ТВ» (Direc TV) производства компании Boeing*"

Translation of bold type: Eutelsat W7 launch will not be the last commercial Proton-M launch in 2009, in the nearest time one more launch is planned - with DirecTV 12.


----------



## Go Beavs

:joy: Great news! Thanks for the info, Anik!!! :joy:


----------



## LameLefty

anik said:


> Today Roskosmos website (I can not show the link, because I have less than 5 posts on your forum  ) has published yesterday's interview with Vladimir Bronfman, director of program from Khrunichev enterprise.
> 
> He said: "Ноябрь заканчивается, «Дабл Ю 7» (Eutelsat W7) будет шестым коммерческим спутником, стартовавшим в этом году на «Протоне», в том числе один из пусков был для этой же компании - Eutelsat. *Данный запуск не будет последним, «крайним», как говорят ракетчики, в 2009 году. В ближайшее время запланирован еще один коммерческий запуск - это будет космический аппарат «Директ ТВ» (Direc TV) производства компании Boeing*"
> 
> Translation of bold type: Eutelsat W7 launch will not be the last commercial Proton-M launch in 2009, in the nearest time one more launch is planned - with DirecTV 12.


Excellent news, Anik! Thanks for sharing the information. 

(And with your next post, you'll be able to post links!)


----------



## Sixto

anik said:


> Today Roskosmos website (I can not show the link, because I have less than 5 posts on your forum  ) has published yesterday's interview with Vladimir Bronfman, director of program from Khrunichev enterprise.
> 
> He said: "Ноябрь заканчивается, «Дабл Ю 7» (Eutelsat W7) будет шестым коммерческим спутником, стартовавшим в этом году на «Протоне», в том числе один из пусков был для этой же компании - Eutelsat. *Данный запуск не будет последним, «крайним», как говорят ракетчики, в 2009 году. В ближайшее время запланирован еще один коммерческий запуск - это будет космический аппарат «Директ ТВ» (Direc TV) производства компании Boeing*"
> 
> Translation of bold type: Eutelsat W7 launch will not be the last commercial Proton-M launch in 2009, in the nearest time one more launch is planned - with DirecTV 12.


Fabulous!!!!!

THANK YOU Anik. Great info as always.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I have to admit I wanted to read Anik's translation out loud in a Borat voice though...

Great news indeed..and certainly more confirmation than we've had in a while.


----------



## Sixto

Anik has updated his site:http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.msg507681#msg507681​
Post#1 updated.


----------



## Indiana627

Great news! Can't wait to see D12 fly!


----------



## torre39601

So if Directv 12 launches last week of December, what are steps and time involved in getting new sat in use?


----------



## spear61

Tom Robertson said:


> Specifically it was how the ITU allocated bandwidth over North America this time. Rather than having exclusive rights at slots, some slots are shared to both the US and Canadian regulatory agencies.
> 
> So Ceil, having rights at 103°, but only for Canada, either has to redesign their services (and the satellites) or redesign the licenses.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


It's a bit more complex. Spectrum 5 (Netherlands serving the Dutch Antilles) has claimed priority filing for the 103 slot with the ITU (disputed by Directv). This gives them "emission" rights throughout Region 2 (which includes Canada, Mexico, US, Carribbean, etc) for the beam pattern they filed with ITU. The beam includes coverage of the US.

So, they claim to have the provisional right (subject to time deadlines) to build, launch and transmit at 103W (covering the US with their beam ) and that's the way it is.

But, they need a FCC license for "reception from a foreign satellite" in the US before transmissions can be marketed in the US.

If the FCC does not issue a "reception" license, they can still transmit and effectively block Directv's use of the slot by causing interference. But, they would likely never launch since they need the large US market to make it profitable and would not do it without a FCC reception license in hand.

This is what Directvs is howling about. About one month ago, Directv received a transmit and reception license from the FCC for the slot and paid the bond.

Now, FCC has accepted an application from Spectrum for "reception from a foreign satellite" for the same location.

Something has to give and time will tell what which one loses.

It's a big deal with both Directv and Dish involved in fights with Spectrum involving various slots. There has been speculation that Spectrum is a legal gin mill being used to hold slots hostage. Dish claims it is a "phantom" satellite network.

Directv's latest Salvo


----------



## Sixto

torre39601 said:


> So if Directv 12 launches last week of December, what are steps and time involved in getting new sat in use?


We've always assumed a 60-120 day launch to operational window.

D10 launched 7/7/2007. "Live" 9/26/2007. With about a week delay because of spot and authorization issues.

D11 launched 3/19/2008. "Live" 7/31/2008. With about a 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. Actually got to first test location 5/25/2008.

Post#2 of this thread contains the day-by-day history of D11 for comparison. Post#3 of that thread has the comparison with D10, D11, and SW1.


----------



## LameLefty

spear61 said:


> It's a big deal with both Directv and Dish involved in fights with Spectrum involving various slots. There has been speculation that Spectrum is a legal gin mill being used to hold slots hostage. Dish claims it is a "phantom" satellite network.


Yep. Much akin to cybersquatting. Fortunately, I don't think the FCC is buying it.

The interesting question to me is what will the ITU do if the FCC grants Directv's application to launch and operate D12/RB-2A. For that matter, where does the ITU get off granting a Dutch entity bandwidth rights to an orbital slot a third of the way around the world?


----------



## lwilli201

LameLefty said:


> Yep. Much akin to cybersquatting. Fortunately, I don't think the FCC is buying it.
> 
> The interesting question to me is what will the ITU do if the FCC grants Directv's application to launch and operate D12/RB-2A. For that matter, where does the ITU get off granting a Dutch entity bandwidth rights to an orbital slot a third of the way around the world?


Isn't there a time limit on how long they can sit on a slot. I believe they can lose the slot by not starting construction of the satallite. There are probably many milestones that must be met to discourage cybersquatting.


----------



## armophob

I have one request. Before the launch, when it is official, could we get a new launch thread? After 27 pages and 55k views, it is hard to keep checking the status.

Thanks


----------



## lwilli201

Webcast of W7 launch at this link at 9:15 AM EST on 23 November 2009.
This is the same launch vehicle configuration that will launch D-12.

http://www.ccistream.com/ils112309/


----------



## Sixto

armophob said:


> I have one request. Before the launch, when it is official, could we get a new launch thread? After 27 pages and 55k views, it is hard to keep checking the status.
> 
> Thanks


Post#1 will always have the latest after the launch, as we get the orbital updates every 24-48 hours until "live".


----------



## spear61

LameLefty said:


> Yep. Much akin to cybersquatting. Fortunately, I don't think the FCC is buying it.
> 
> The interesting question to me is what will the ITU do if the FCC grants Directv's application to launch and operate D12/RB-2A. For that matter, where does the ITU get off granting a Dutch entity bandwidth rights to an orbital slot a third of the way around the world?


Directv's question is why did the FCC even accept Spectrum's application (the start of the license approval procedure) when FCC has just licensed Directv for the slot with full Conus coverage. Normally, FCC would reject the application and that would end it. There must be a legal reason they had to accept the application because, technically, the licensed and proposed satellites can not coexist at the same location. This goes beyond the RB-2A spots and is a full Conus issue since Spectrum proposes Conus coverage.

Re: ITU. The US is bound by international agreement to honor the ITU assignments. It would not be an issue until Spectrum launches years from now if ever. An existing Echostar satellite has restrictions to not affect a future? Spectrum satellite. So, it will probably have little if any effect on RB-2A .

The Spectrum Beam also covers the Dutch Antilles (with slot rights assigned to the Netherlands) and with service to the Antilles. This is the loophole they are using to gain access. They said, no problem, the US providers can beam all the programming they want into the Antilles and therefore, under the FCC regs, they have reciprocal rights to the US market. Mexico is the only country I am aware of that has a formal agreement for cross border satellite transmissions with the US. The Canadians have their French problem and will not allow US satellite programming in so they are frozen out of the US market.


----------



## Sixto

Our first step is to pray (or whatever your preferred method is ) that W7 goes perfectly tomorrow:http://www.ilslaunch.com/w7-mission-control/​Then we're hopefully on the clock, pending any remaining FCC or launch provider issues.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

lwilli201 said:


> Webcast of W7 launch at this link at 9:15 AM EST on 23 November 2009.
> This is the same launch vehicle configuration that will launch D-12.
> 
> http://www.ccistream.com/ils112309/


Hoping that one goes up without a hitch...then D12 will be on target for the end of December.....

<all fingers crossed>


----------



## anik

Eutelsat W7 launch is delayed because Kazakhs have not permitted. Possibly it will be launched tomorrow. DirecTV 12 launch is currently scheduled for December 29.


----------



## ptuck874

anik said:


> Eutelsat W7 launch is delayed because Kazakhs have not permitted. Possibly it will be launched tomorrow. DirecTV 12 launch is currently scheduled for December 29.


cool beans! thanks anik!!!


----------



## radiomandc

Great news Anik!!!!


----------



## Sixto

Anik's site updated with D12 Launch Date of 12/29/2009:http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.msg508702#msg508702​Post#1 updated.

All eyes focused on W7 for now! Tomorrow at 9:19am ET.


----------



## anik

anik said:


> Eutelsat W7 launch is delayed because Kazakhs have not permitted


DirecTV 12 can get same problem with launch approval.

Кроме того, 2 ноября т.г. от Роскосмоса поступило очередное обращение о согласовании запуска КА «Дирек ТВ-12» ракетой-носителем «Протон-М». В настоящее время возможность указанного запуска согласовывается с заинтересованными государственными органами Республики Казахстан

Besides, on November 2nd, the next reference about the coordination of DirecTV-12 launch by Proton-M rocket has arrived from Roskosmos. Now possibility of the specified launch is coordinating with interested state structures of Republic Kazakhstan.


----------



## Sixto

anik said:


> DirecTV 12 can get same problem with launch approval.
> 
> Кроме того, 2 ноября т.г. от Роскосмоса поступило очередное обращение о согласовании запуска КА «Дирек ТВ-12» ракетой-носителем «Протон-М». В настоящее время возможность указанного запуска согласовывается с заинтересованными государственными органами Республики Казахстан
> 
> Besides, on November 2nd, the next reference about the coordination of DirecTV-12 launch by Proton-M rocket has arrived from Roskosmos. Now possibility of the specified launch is coordinating with interested state structures of Republic Kazakhstan.


Thanks Anik for the continued updates!


----------



## LameLefty

Sounds to me like someone in some Kazakh ministry or another wants his palm greased. On the other hand, the possibility of several hundred metric tons of toxic rocket stage falling onto your territory outside the designated impact zones is a pretty significant risk.


----------



## P Smith

anik said:


> DirecTV 12 can get same problem with launch approval.
> 
> Besides, on November 2nd, the next reference about the coordination of DirecTV-12 launch by Proton-M rocket has arrived from Roskosmos. Now possibility of the *specified launch is coordinating with interested state structures of Republic Kazakhstan*.


Oh man. Borat alert !

[Hope, on last Obama's visit to China he got a permission for launch D-12 by 48 degree from Chinese bureaucrats]


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Sounds to me like someone in some Kazakh ministry or another wants his palm greased. On the other hand, the possibility of several hundred metric tons of toxic rocket stage falling onto your territory outside the designated impact zones is a pretty significant risk.


So what is this about?

You mean W7 also wants a launch pad sub-latitude 48 degree inclination transfer obit as well leading to Kazakh objections possibly due to concerns over spent rocket stages impacting on their territory outside the designated areas?

Also LameLefty educate me a bit here on the flight characteristics of expendable rocket boosters for delivering payloads into space. Your frequent mention of toxic hypergolic rocket stages falling on earth.

I'm confused, since I always thought that spent rocket stages, at least the first main one, burn up after separation and re-entry into the earth's atmosphere?


----------



## ActiveHDdave

I heard Kazakh is owned by Comcast.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So where exactly is D12 at right now? Or should we not say for security reasons? Wouldn't want E* or C* to tamper with it.


----------



## Sixto

All the sats transfering to the new entity:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=783155​
Good luck to W7 in the morning!


----------



## LameLefty

The ILS site still says "Delayed" for W7 this morning, less than 2 hours from the scheduled launch time, and the blog hasn't been updated either. Not a hopeful sign. :nono:


----------



## FHSPSU67

Now updated for launch today at 0915 EST.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

FHSPSU67 said:


> Now updated for launch today at 0915 EST.


I have the streaming broadcast ready to run in a bit....

Should be a good preview of what D12 will look like...


----------



## FHSPSU67

Yes, I should have said the broadcast starts at 0915 EST>


----------



## hdtvfan0001

FHSPSU67 said:


> Yes, I should have said the broadcast starts at 0915 EST>


Noticed that just a few minutes ago....so the launch is likely delayed slightly, maybe less than 30 minutes....

*UPDATED:*

LOOKS LIKE THE COUNTDOWN IS ON - for about 10:18am EST....


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

So is December 29 official now? 

And how long after that will we have to wait for the new HD channels?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So is December 29 official now?
> 
> And how long after that will we have to wait for the new HD channels?


First W7 needs to launch, but it's good news that's there's a tentative date now, assuming W7 goes well. 

Post #672 has thoughts on launch-to-"live". The same info has now been added to post#1 of this thread.


----------



## Sixto

W7 video feed up: http://www.ccistream.com/ils112309/


----------



## LameLefty

The webstream is live now.


----------



## Sixto

W7 liftoff! ...http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/video/W7-Launch-Highlight-cbl.wmv​


----------



## FHSPSU67

Funny, I can play the Test event, but not the launch event.
[edit] Turns out that I already had WMP12 open behind the dbstalk window. Therefore I was trying to open a second WMP12 window.


----------



## Sixto

W7 (60 secs) looking good so far ....


----------



## mobandit

Just watched the W7 launch...


----------



## Sixto

W7 1st/2nd separation went well ...


----------



## Button Pusher

Looks good so far!


----------



## FHSPSU67

Got it now!


----------



## LameLefty

Second stage separation and payload fairing jettison confirmed. Third stage jettison coming up.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

What a neat launch.....a good preview of D12 at the end of December, despite rainy conditions and night-time. You could see most of the flight upwards after launch....

The information on the Proton Rocket was interesting - Russia's biggest launch vehicle.

Very smooth process - similar to SeaLaunch in terms of the pre-launch activities.

After 18 minutes....it gets picked up by various other ground stations down range that send back signals to the launch station and other control sites.

W7 is up...and now D12 is next!

By the way....yes....after the launch...they said all things were "nominal".


----------



## LameLefty

Third stage separation and Briz-M first burn now underway. Keep your fingers crossed, folks. In a few more hours after the Briz-M has completed its job we'll know if things are good for D12.


----------



## HRJustin

Im watching the live webcast right now I to was surprised how long it could be seen after launch. I thought it would be hard to see with the rain and being night time. I hope I can be around to see the webcast of D12


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Third stage separation and Briz-M first burn now underway. Keep your fingers crossed, folks. In a few more hours after the Briz-M has completed its job we'll know if things are good for D12.


That's what we want to hear - especially from the rocket scientists.


----------



## doctor j

Announced D-12 launch, as next Proton launch.
Doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Here's the best news of all...at the end of the broadcast....

"Official news"....Late December.


----------



## HRJustin

I wonder what happens to the last two stages that get separated. Seems like they would have some propellant left to send them back towards earth. Then they wouldn't be orbiting around endangering other things in orbit. It just seems like its making it harder and harder for the future with all the debris left over.


----------



## FHSPSU67

As Tibber would say: *WOOHOO !*


----------



## Sixto

FHSPSU67 said:


> As Tibber would say: *WOOHOO !*


WooHoo indeed. 

Be nice to finally be solely on the clock.


----------



## HoTat2

Oh well...

Too bad for those of us Johnny-come Late-lies who missed the live web-cast. Guess there is no stored file for replay as nothing is coming up now on the ILS WMP web app.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HoTat2 said:


> Oh well...
> 
> Too bad for those of us Johnny-come Late-lies who missed the live web-cast. Guess there is no stored file for replay as nothing is coming up now on the ILS WMP web app.


Not sure if the video is available somehow...but the ILS site does upload a series of mission photos several weeks after the launches.


----------



## doctor j

ANIK on the NASASpaceflight Forum often has videos of the launches.
If the webcast doesn't replay (it usually does, maybe later today or tomorrow) check the W-7 thread under Russian launches.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

HRJustin said:


> I wonder what happens to the last two stages that get separated. Seems like they would have some propellant left to send them back towards earth. Then they wouldn't be orbiting around endangering other things in orbit. It just seems like its making it harder and harder for the future with all the debris left over.


The first three stages (all part of the Proton) impact downrange. The Briz-M upper stage performs a separation maneuver after the payload spacecraft itself separates. It then inerts itself (vents propellants and discharges batteries), leaving it in a very highly elliptical orbit that is tracked and cataloged along with most everything else in orbit.


----------



## doctor j

http://www.ilslaunch.com/w7-mission-control/

I get the replay.

Go to broadcast on this link, do the test to make certain streaming requirements met, and then do launch event, full replay (about 45 min) available. D-12 launch announced the last minute or so. EDIT:42 minutes 51 seconds is the D-12 announcement

Doctor j


----------



## Tom Robertson

FHSPSU67 said:


> As Tibber would say: *WOOHOO !*


Thank you for covering for me this morning. 


Sixto said:


> WooHoo indeed.
> 
> Be nice to finally be solely on the clock.


Several Woohoo!s indeed:
W7 is up, looks clean: Woohoo!
D12 is next: Woohoo!
Planned for late December! *Big, Priceless, WOOHOO!!* 

(Anyone got a spare ticket to Baikunor I can borrow?) 

HAPPY THANKSGIVING indeed!
Tom


----------



## FHSPSU67

You're welcome, Tom.


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> ANIK on the NASASpaceflight Forum often has videos of the launches.
> If the webcast doesn't replay (it usually does, maybe later today or tomorrow) check the W-7 thread under Russian launches.
> 
> Doctor j


OK thanks;

The replay is coming through now  ... don't know what the hangup was previously.


----------



## LameLefty

Third and fourth burns of the Briz-M completed successfully and the "drop tanks"/half-stage have been jettisoned. The fifth and final Briz-M burn should have started about 7 minutes ago if all is going well.


----------



## LameLefty

Fifth and final burn completed. Spacecraft separation is also confirmed. 

:up:


----------



## P Smith

> The 5th burn is scheduled to start around 6:11 p.m. EST, or 23:11 GMT.
> 
> Separation of the W7 spacecraft is scheduled to follow the 5th burn completion by about 14 minutes.


Are we missing reports - 20 min behind schedule !

EDIT: Done !



> We have had a successful mission with the Proton M Breeze M
> rocket, carrying the W7 satellite built by Thales Alenia
> Space for Eutelsat. We have had confirmation that the
> satellite separated from the vehicle on schedule at 6:30
> p.m. EST, or 04:34 GMT, 9 hours and 12 minutes after
> liftoff.


Time to pack D12 and bring it to Moffett Field !


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Are we missing reports - 20 min behind schedule !


Nope.


----------



## Sixto

Now we're truly on the clock!


----------



## freerein100

What is the departure charter?


----------



## P Smith

freerein100 said:


> What is the departure charter?


----------



## dwrats_56

P Smith said:


>


That is one BIG UGLY plane......

But, I am glad that it is available to do it's job.


----------



## LameLefty

Meanwhile, the legal skirmishing over the 103W BSS slot continues at the FCC . . .

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=783481


----------



## cforrest

LameLefty said:


> Meanwhile, the legal skirmishing over the 103W BSS slot continues at the FCC . . .
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=783481


Looks like a bunch of posturing on both sides with that. Ciel is probably going to sell the satellite spectrum to Echostar once they launch at 103 in the future, hence they want to be able to serve the US market. Wonder what Directv's reply will be?


----------



## P Smith

> [Ciel Satellite Limited Partnership] CONCLUSION
> For the reasons discussed herein, the Commission should impose a coordination
> condition in any grant of the RB-2A Application and make clear to DIRECTV that absent
> successful coordination, DIRECTV must modify or terminate its operations as necessary to
> accommodate U.S. coverage by the Ciel 17/24 GHz BSS network operating under a Canadian
> ITU filing with date priority.


This is not good for DTV conclusion.


----------



## LameLefty

cforrest said:


> Looks like a bunch of posturing on both sides with that. Ciel is probably going to sell the satellite spectrum to Echostar once they launch at 103 in the future, hence they want to be able to serve the US market. Wonder what Directv's reply will be?


I don't think they can. Echostar doesn't hold a license for BSS spectrum from 103, so far as I know.



P Smith said:


> This is not good for DTV conclusion.


The stuff you quoted is argument, not a legal decision from the FCC.

Frankly, I expect the FCC to tell both Ciel and Spectrum Five to piss up a rope because neither of them hold licenses for broadcast services into the U.S. at 103W, and even if they did, Directv has a spacecraft ready and able to take advantage of the license they've been granted while the other two do not.


----------



## RobertE

LameLefty said:


> I don't think they can. Echostar doesn't hold a license for BSS spectrum from 103, so far as I know.
> 
> The stuff you quoted is argument, not a legal decision from the FCC.
> 
> Frankly, I expect the FCC to tell both Ciel and Spectrum Five to piss up a rope because neither of them hold licenses for broadcast services into the U.S. at 103W, and even if they did, Directv has a spacecraft ready and able to take advantage of the license they've been granted while the other two do not.


For arguments sake, lets say the FCC does just that. What realisticly can Ciel, the ITU or anyone for that matter do?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So if worse comes to worse, could D* use D12 at 99 or 101?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> For arguements sake, lets say the FCC does just that. What realistly can Ciel, the ITU or anyone for that matter do?


I think Lefty kinda answered that question...pertaining to a rope.


----------



## LameLefty

RobertE said:


> For arguements sake, lets say the FCC does just that. What realistly can Ciel, the ITU or anyone for that matter do?


Not much, though I'm sure Ciel would try a civil lawsuit or try suing the FCC for failing to honor their interpretation of the ITU's slot award (an interpretation NOT shared by Directv).



TheRatPatrol said:


> So if worse comes to worse, could D* use D12 at 99 or 101?


They wouldn't bother. They already hold Ka licenses for 103W and that's their most pressing need: to augment Ka bandwidth and server as an on-orbit spare for D10 and D11. The RB-2A payload won't be used until/unless the FCC resolves this whole BSS mess.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think Lefty kinda answered that question...pertaining to a rope.


Thanks for the support.


----------



## dettxw

LameLefty said:


> A good rule of thumb is that all acceptance tests and final QA checks for a pre-packaged spacecraft should be completed about a month to six weeks in advance of the best-estimate of launch date. That gives schedule flexibility of several weeks one way or the other if something . . . untoward . . . happens (like a few years ago when Lockheed Martin dropped a spacecraft when moving it :sure.
> 
> In any event, I would say that if we don't hear anything from Boeing and/or the FCC by the end of this month, we won't see D12/RB-2A launch by the end of the year.


No delivery today, only thing was about a weather satellite ready to be handed over in the middle of next month, getting ready to ship the next weather satellite, and D12 preparing for for a December launch.

Almost implies that D12 has already been delivered?
But that wouldn't make sense. In these days of constant corporate bad news that would be something to brag about.


----------



## cdhinch

Actually, the FCC International Bureau has already made a ruling on all of this. It's contained in the *Order & Authorization for RB-2*. I think its just of time before the International Bureau makes a ruling on RB-2a. Besides, in the narrative for RB-2a, DirecTV states that RB-2a will be removed from service once RB-2 is launched and operating. DirecTV already has the Authorization for RB-2, so most of the ramblings, by Spectrum 5 and Ciel are pretty much irrelevant.


----------



## LameLefty

cdhinch said:


> Actually, the FCC International Bureau has already made a ruling on all of this. It's contained in the *Order & Authorization for RB-2*. I think its just of time before the International Bureau makes a ruling on RB-2a. Besides, in the narrative for RB-2a, DirecTV states that RB-2a will be removed from service once RB-2 is launched and operating. DirecTV already has the Authorization for RB-2, so most of the ramblings, by Spectrum 5 and Ciel are pretty much irrelevant.


Actually, I disagree - it's not irrelevant at all. There is a difference between RB-2, RB-2A and any other space station platform or earth station. They all have separate FCC call signs and are treated independently from a regulatory standpoint.

The big issue, regardless of the previous authorization for RB-2, is that the ITU gave more than one country authority to regulate the same bandwidth from the same operational slot. Now, why they chose to do that is quite beyond me. :nono:


----------



## bobnielsen

dettxw said:


> No delivery today, only thing was about a weather satellite ready to be handed over in the middle of next month, getting ready to ship the next weather satellite, and D12 preparing for for a December launch.
> 
> Almost implies that D12 has already been delivered?
> But that wouldn't make sense. In these days of constant corporate bad news that would be something to brag about.


I drove past Boeing yesterday, while on vacation in SoCal. I felt like dropping in to say hi to D12, but I figured that he/she probably wouldn't have been available.

I just realized that it has been 16 years since I last set foot in that building (and 43 years since I worked on any satellite hardware there). How time flies!


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> I drove past Boeing yesterday, while on vacation in SoCal. I felt like dropping in to say hi to D12, but I figured that he/she probably wouldn't have been available.
> 
> I just realized that it has been 16 years since I last set foot in that building (and 43 years since I worked on any satellite hardware there). How time flies!


We took the kids to the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville this past summer and on the way home, I drove the family out past Redstone Arsenal and down along the runways of the Huntsville airport along Boeing Boulevard to show them the facility where I had been a young engineer. It was also 16 years since I had left the job to go to law school and it was amazing to see how much had changed (landscaping and trees, mostly, and vastly improved employee recreational area across the road ) and how much hadn't.


----------



## taz291819

LameLefty said:


> We took the kids to the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville this past summer and on the way home, I drove the family out past Redstone Arsenal and down along the runways of the Huntsville airport along Boeing Boulevard to show them the facility where I had been a young engineer. It was also 16 years since I had left the job to go to law school and it was amazing to see how much had changed (landscaping and trees, mostly, and vastly improved employee recreational area across the road ) and how much hadn't.


That's funny, I live in Research Park, can see the Saturn V from my back patio.


----------



## spear61

LameLefty said:


> Actually, I disagree - it's not irrelevant at all. There is a difference between RB-2, RB-2A and any other space station platform or earth station. They all have separate FCC call signs and are treated independently from a regulatory standpoint.
> 
> The big issue, regardless of the previous authorization for RB-2, is that the ITU gave more than one country authority to regulate the same bandwidth from the same operational slot. Now, why they chose to do that is quite beyond me. :nono:


1: At minimum, Directv will get license to operate the 4 spots as long as they do not interfere with a presently nonexistant satellite. So that is not a problem for a number of years

3: The ITU has no problem granting multiple rights for a slot. But, the international agreement, which the US is party to and which the US uses to defend it's satellites from interference, provides that the "first" filer has non- interference rights to the beams areas included in their ITU filing and with subsequent filers having non interfering rights decending in the order of their filing dates.

So, in the end, Ciel will prevail and may end up leasing transponders to Directv since 103W fits the Directv receiver dish pattern ( unless they can't find enough customers to launch and abandon their application).


----------



## Tom Robertson

Do the ITU filings have to show the planned patterns of the beams? And does Ciel's filings show North America?

I guess I'd need to know what Region 2 covers.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith




----------



## lwilli201

P Smith said:


>


No ambiguity there.


----------



## lwilli201

freerein100 said:


> What is the departure charter?


I believe that is a charter flight for the Eutelsat launch team to return home which ends the launch campaign and ILS's involvement ends.


----------



## anik

DirecTV 12 satellite was delivered to Baikonur cosmodrome by An-124 "Ruslan" aircraft today.

Source: http://www.federalspace.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=8357


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

anik said:


> DirecTV 12 satellite was delivered to Baikonur cosmodrome by An-124 "Ruslan" aircraft today.
> 
> Source: http://www.federalspace.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=8357


and for those of us who don't speak Russian:

http://translate.google.com/transla...ace.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?NEWSID=8357&sl=ru&tl=en


----------



## bobnielsen

The first sentence of which says: 

Spacecraft "The Director of TV-12» (DirecTV-12) delivered to Baikonur in preparation for the launch of a rocket Proton-M ", scheduled for the end of December 2009.


----------



## tcusta00

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091127/157005620.html

Dec. 29, according to that article!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

tcusta00 said:


> http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091127/157005620.html
> 
> Dec. 29, according to that article!


----------



## doctor j

Anik's thread about D-12 on NASASpaceFlight forum started here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19646.0

Go Proton!
Go Breeze-M!!
Go D-12!!!

Doctor j


----------



## dennisj00

For those of us that don't speak Russian, there's a translation on the page. . .click the flag.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dennisj00 said:


> For those of us that don't speak Russian, there's a translation on the page. . .click the flag.


So there is...

funny how D12's arrival to the launch station is huge news in Russia but American agencies couldn't care less.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> For those of us that don't speak Russian, there's a translation on the page. . .click the flag.


I like how the translator has D12 listed as "The Director of TV - 12". :lol:

I good to have a launch date...and one that's before then end of the year, if barely. 

Mike


----------



## FHSPSU67

Wow, thanks Anik!

This calls for a double *WooHoo* !
and:

Go Proton!
Go Breeze-M!
Go D-12!


----------



## LameLefty

Wonderful news! 

I bet we see some FCC paperwork next week.


----------



## Sim-X

awesome!


----------



## smiddy

Smoken great news!


----------



## Sixto

The article:"DirecTV-12 spacecraft intended for launch by Proton-M in late Dec. has been delivered to Baikonur today.

The satellite arrived in Ruslan airplane will be installed in the clean room for further prelaunch processing. Currently, the containers are being unloaded and transported to Proton/payload integration and test facility.

Launch services are to be provided by International Launch Services Inc. (ILS). Khrunichev, which is one of the cornerstones of the Russian space industry, holds the majority interest in ILS. Khrunichev manufactures Proton and Breeze-M and develops Angara launch vehicle.

DirecTV-12, with its payload mass of 5940 kg, is based on the Boeing 702 platform. It is to maintin satellite communication, Internet, digital direct-to-home TV services for the continental USA, Alaska and the Hawaii. DirecTV-12 was manufactured by Boeing will enter the DirecTV system which counts 11 satellites today.

Khrunichev Center PAO"

http://www.federalspace.ru/NewsDoSele.asp?Lang=ENG​
Great news!

Post#1 updated. Added new section "D12 Status".


----------



## barryb

Very good news indeed.


----------



## Button Pusher

Great news!


----------



## mcbeevee

WOO-HOO!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like we've moved from hope and speculation to optimism and a countdown to launch date.

Terrific news...and also brings us closer to new national HD channels.


----------



## dettxw

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So there is...
> 
> funny how D12's arrival to the launch station is huge news in Russia but American agencies couldn't care less.


Well, I'd say because Boeing is off for the long holiday weekend, but there was an announcement yesterday about a an Australian Wedgetail delivery. 

Anyways, at least now we're on to the next step of anticipating the launch!


----------



## bakers12

I remember D10 landing in Russia or Kazakhstan and being transferred to a train for its ride to Baikonur. But D12 was shipped straight to Baikonur instead. It sounds like this bird is on the fast track.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> The article:"DirecTV-12 spacecraft intended for launch by Proton-M in late Dec. has been delivered to Baikonur today.​




This is fantastic. It is like when the XM channels start Holly up. Christmas really is close now.​


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Right on! Good luck D12..!


----------



## P Smith

bakers12 said:


> I remember D10 landing in Russia or Kazakhstan and being transferred to a train for its ride to Baikonur. But D12 was shipped straight to Baikonur instead. It sounds like this bird is on the fast track.


You messed up this time; jets could reach only yubileini airport near Baiknur, after that a payload delivering by train. Nothing changed, it's just news wording confusing you a little.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> You messed up this time; jets could reach only yubileini airport near Baiknur, after that a payload *delivering by train*. Nothing changed, it's just news wording confusing you a little.


Yup - the Borat Express.


----------



## Groundhog45

WooHoo. D-12 is in the house and getting ready to fly.


----------



## P Smith

Groundhog45 said:


> WooHoo. D-12 is in the house and getting ready to fly.


 ?
Do you know how long it will take to fly it ? - Month! Then it it will be ready [ if nothing happen ( like crazy drunk ivan will drop something on/in it during Xmas shift )].


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> ?
> Do you know how long it will take to fly it ? - Month! Then it it will be ready [ if nothing happen ( like crazy drunk ivan will drop something on/in it during Xmas shift )].


You're not the only one who knows it takes a month. We've discussed that fact quite extensively over the length and breadth of this thread. It's only November 27, fer heavens' sake. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it.

In fact, what have you got against crazy drunk ivans? For that matter, why do you think anyone named Ivan will be allowed to be drunk near a several hundred million dollar/ruble/euro spacecraft and launcher?

Besides, Russian Orthodox Christmas is celebrated January 7. But I'm sure you knew that already.


----------



## bakers12

P Smith said:


> You messed up this time; jets could reach only yubileini airport near Baiknur, after that a payload delivering by train. Nothing changed, it's just news wording confusing you a little.


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## bidger

tcusta00 said:


> http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091127/157005620.html
> 
> Dec. 29, according to that article!


Just what I checked this thread to see, a prospective launch date. Thanks.


----------



## LameLefty

bidger said:


> Just what I checked this thread to see, a prospective launch date. Thanks.


Always check the first post - Sixto keeps it updated in near real-time.


----------



## cdizzy

I just noticed the launch date as well. 1 month away!


----------



## Sixto

T minus 29.


----------



## njblackberry

Is everything Nominal so far?


----------



## smiddy

njblackberry said:


> Is everything Nominal so far?


Nom-Mee-Nal!


----------



## joed32

One of my favorite words.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

joed32 said:


> One of my favorite words.


...and they use it both at this launch location and at Sea Launch - a favorite buzzword. 

Hopefully, D12 makes this new date...looking forward to a 1Q 2010 activation of D12 and some new national HD channels...


----------



## cforrest

http://ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control

• Satellite Provider: 
Boeing Space & Intelligence Systems 
• End User: DIRECTV 
• Purpose: HDTV
• Date: December 29, 2009
• Time: 00:22 GMT; 06:22 BKT; Dec. 28: 19:22 EST

http://ilslaunch.com/assets/pdf/DTV-12-MO-Final.pdf

http://ilslaunch.com/dtv-12

Let the countdown & following of the blog begin, woohoo!


----------



## LameLefty

cforrest said:


> http://ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control
> 
> • Satellite Provider:
> Boeing Space & Intelligence Systems
> • End User: DIRECTV
> • Purpose: HDTV
> • Date: December 29, 2009
> • Time: 00:22 GMT; 06:22 BKT; Dec. 28: 19:22 EST


Very cool. That 6:22 p.m. CDT, perfect time to watch after work.


----------



## cforrest

LameLefty said:


> Very cool. That 6:22 p.m. CDT, perfect time to watch after work.


Yep & the launch date in the USA is the 28th, the sooner the better


----------



## hdtvfan0001

More just listed on that same site:

*http://ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control*
*
Satellite Operator*DIRECTV
www.directv.com
*Satellite Manufacturer*
Boeing Space & Intelligence Systems
www.boeing.com
*Platform*
702
*Separated Mass*
5900 kg
*Satellite Design Life*
15 Years
*Satellite Mission*
The DIRECTV 12 next-generation satellite will play an important role in extending DIRECTV's content leadership position in the pay TV industry. When it becomes operational in the first half of next year, it will expand DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50 percent to more than 200 national channels and enable DIRECTV to deliver 1,500 local HD and digital channels and more advanced services for its customers nationwide. The powerful 131-transponder payload integrates 32 active and 12 spare TWTAs (Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers) at Ka-band for national service and 55 active and 15 spare TWTAs for spot beams. The payload is powered by a gallium arsenide solar array that spans more than 48 meters. DIRECTV 12 will receive and transmit programming throughout the United States with two large Ka-band reflectors, each measuring 2.8 meters in diameter and nine other Ka-band reflectors.

*MISSION DESCRIPTION*
The Proton M launch vehicle, utilizing a 5-burn Breeze M mission design, will lift off from Pad 39 at Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan, with the DIRECTV 12 satellite on board. The first three stages of the Proton will use a standard ascent profile to place the Ascent Unit (payload fairing, Breeze M upper stage and the DIRECTV 12 satellite) into a sub-orbital trajectory. From this point in the mission, the Breeze M will perform planned mission maneuvers to advance the Orbital Unit first to a circular parking orbit, then to an intermediate orbit, followed by a transfer orbit, and finally to a geo-transfer orbit. Separation of the DIRECTV 12 satellite is scheduled to occur approximately 9 hours, 10 minutes after liftoff.


----------



## Sixto

Just checked that site an hour ago ... nothing.

Now it's all there! Great info.


----------



## cforrest

Sixto said:


> Just checked that site an hour ago ... nothing.
> 
> Now it's all there! Great info.


You and me both, LOL! Then I saw the campaign link and posted all the links that had info on D12 ASAP. Hope this satellite launches on time without any hiccups.


----------



## bjlc

can I ask a question? is D12 was a "backup" satellite .. is there a backup to D12 if something should go wrong..


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> You and me both, LOL! Then I saw the campaign link and posted all the links that had info on D12 ASAP. Hope this satellite launches on time without any hiccups.


post#1 all updated!

T minus 28!


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> You and me both, LOL! Then I saw the campaign link and posted all the links that had info on D12 ASAP. Hope this satellite launches on time without any hiccups.


funny ... the magic keyword was "dtv-12".

the content was there earlier. had tried d12, directv12, and directv-12 over the weekend. the key was "dtv-12".


----------



## Sixto

bjlc said:


> can I ask a question? is D12 was a "backup" satellite .. is there a backup to D12 if something should go wrong..


No other satellite is in production at this time. BSS is a few years away.

Would need to get creative with other options.


----------



## Newshawk

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and they use it both at this launch location and at Sea Launch - a favorite buzzword.


Maybe it's because NASA trademarked "AOK"? :lol:


----------



## doctor j

Review of Mission overview and comparison to W-7 does confirm that D-12 plans to use the 48 degree launch inclination.

From my uneducated following of multiple launches since SW-1, Directv seems to be very conservative in getting into Geosynchronous Orbit. ie: very minimal fuel usage with very slow steps into final state.

W-7
Parking Orbit ; Hcir=177 km i=51.5 degrees
Inter. Orbit ; Hp=265km, Ha=5000 km i-50.3
Transfer Orbit ; Hp=420 km,Ha=35616 km i=49.1
GTO ; Hp=4920 km, Ha=35596 km i=20.9

D-12
Parking Orbit ; Hp=133 km, Ha=273 km i=48 degrees
Inter. Orbit ; Hp=245km, Ha=5000 km i-46.8
Transfer Orbit ; Hp=405 km,Ha=35816 km i=45.6
GTO ; Hp=5120 km, Ha=35796 km i=20.7

Not certain what this means but I bet it's a fuel saving maneuver.

Doctor j


----------



## taz291819

LameLefty said:


> Very cool. That 6:22 p.m. CDT, perfect time to watch after work.


And that's my birthday, should be good luck.


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Review of Mission overview and comparison to W-7 does confirm that D-12 plans to use the 48 degree launch inclination.
> 
> From my uneducated following of multiple launches since SW-1, Directv seems to be very conservative in getting into Geosynchronous Orbit. ie: very minimal fuel usage with very slow steps into final state.
> 
> (SNIPPED DETAILS)
> 
> Not certain what this means but I bet it's a fuel saving maneuver.
> 
> Doctor j


Almost certainly. Here's why; take a look at the following nominal (there's that word again) spacecraft masses for the baseline D10-11-12 configuration of the Boeing 702 bus.

Launch: 13,360 lbs
Start of Mission: 8,157 lbs

The difference of 5,203 lbs is essentially the mass of the fuel expended from insertion into geosynchronous transfer orbit until the spacecraft is parked in GSO. Plane changes from the ~21 degree parking orbit all the way down to the equatorial are VERY expensive in terms of delta-V required. Think of it this way: 39% of the fuel mass is used before the spacecraft even reaches operational status. 

That's why any tiny bit saved in optimizing the launch trajectory is worth it for a satellite that will be in operation for about 15 years.


----------



## Alan Gordon

taz291819 said:


> And that's my birthday, should be good luck.


We're doomed! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> From my uneducated following of multiple launches since SW-1, Directv seems to be very conservative in getting into Geosynchronous Orbit. ie: very minimal fuel usage with very slow steps into final state.


Updated post#1 with the format that will be used to track the D12 orbit.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Almost certainly. Here's why; take a look at the following nominal (there's that word again) spacecraft masses for the baseline D10-11-12 configuration of the Boeing 702 bus.
> 
> Launch: 13,360 lbs
> Start of Mission: 8,157 lbs
> 
> The difference of 5,203 lbs is essentially the mass of the fuel expended from insertion into geosynchronous transfer orbit until the spacecraft is parked in GSO. Plane changes from the ~21 degree parking orbit all the way down to the equatorial are VERY expensive in terms of delta-V required. Think of it this way: 39% of the fuel mass is used before the spacecraft even reaches operational status.
> 
> That's why any tiny bit saved in optimizing the launch trajectory is worth it for a satellite that will be in operation for about 15 years.


Scary (for me) - I actually understand your explanation. :eek2:


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> Review of Mission overview and comparison to W-7 does confirm that D-12 plans to use the 48 degree launch inclination.
> 
> From my uneducated following of multiple launches since SW-1, Directv seems to be very conservative in getting into Geosynchronous Orbit. ie: very minimal fuel usage with very slow steps into final state.
> 
> W-7
> Parking Orbit ; Hcir=177 km i=51.5 degrees
> Inter. Orbit ; Hp=265km, Ha=5000 km i-50.3
> Transfer Orbit ; Hp=420 km,Ha=35616 km i=49.1
> GTO ; Hp=4920 km, Ha=35596 km i=20.9
> 
> D-12
> Parking Orbit ; Hp=133 km, Ha=273 km i=48 degrees
> Inter. Orbit ; Hp=245km, Ha=5000 km i-46.8
> Transfer Orbit ; Hp=405 km,Ha=35816 km i=45.6
> GTO ; Hp=5120 km, Ha=35796 km i=20.7
> 
> Not certain what this means but I bet it's a fuel saving maneuver.
> 
> Doctor j


But the only comparative difference I see in these numbers here from using an initial 48 degree parking orbit is the end result of a slightly higher GTO perigee and apogee with an inclination difference of only .2 degrees.

Therefore is there really any worthwhile savings in fuel expenditures to be gained between the two starting GTOs of W7 and D12 to make the 48 degree initial parking orbit truly advantageous?


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Scary (for me) - I actually understand your explanation. :eek2:


It's actually more than 39%, I think, if I understand FCC regulations regarding end-of-life scenarios. Satellite operators are required to reserve a certain mass of fuel for orbit changing maneuvers at end of life to raise them out of the Clarke Belt and safely out of the way of operational GSO spacecraft for the next few thousand years. Around 22 pounds of propellant are reserved for this plus a margin for error in fuel measurement, in addition to that required to circularize the orbit and lower the inclination to zero, and about 5 pounds are estimated will be left over after satellite disposal.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> It's actually more than 39%, I think, if I understand FCC regulations regarding end-of-life scenarios. Satellite operators are required to reserve a certain mass of fuel for orbit changing maneuvers at end of life to raise them out of the Clarke Belt and safely out of the way of operational GSO spacecraft for the next few thousand years. Around 22 pounds of propellant are reserved for this plus a margin for error in fuel measurement, in addition to that required to circularize the orbit and lower the inclination to zero, and about 5 pounds are estimated will be left over after satellite disposal.


Wouldn't it be easier to go down? Putting a satellite in a decaying orbit to burn up or hit the ocean? Or maybe too many risks there.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> But the only comparative difference I see in these numbers here from using an initial 48 degree parking orbit is the end result of a slightly higher GTO perigee and lower apogee with an inclination difference of only .2 degrees.
> 
> Therefore is there really any worthwhile savings in fuel expenditures to be gained between the two starting GTOs of W7 and D12 to make the 48 degree initial parking orbit truly advantageous?


Actually, yes. Starting with a lower inclination is very good, even with as small a difference as indicated - it's incredibly expensive to change orbital plane. Starting with a substantially higher apogee is important too. Notice that Eutelsat W7's initial parking orbit was circular, which D12's is not.

This is probably due to telemetry and control reasons but I am not certain of that.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Actually, yes. Starting with a lower inclination is very good, even with as small a difference as indicated - it's incredibly expensive to change orbital plane. *Starting with a substantially higher apogee is important too. * Notice that Eutelsat W7's initial parking orbit was circular, which D12's is not.
> 
> This is probably due to telemetry and control reasons but I am not certain of that.


OK LameLefty;

Though I think you meant starting from a substantially higher "perigee"
is important too. 

Anyway, it was your use of the approximation "~21 degrees" earlier to refer to D12's GTO inclination which caused me to read into that you would not consider a .2 degree difference in inclination significant for fuel savings.


----------



## woj027

The blog they just started up seems as though it might be a source for some more insight to the launch.

http://ilslaunch.com/dtv-12


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> OK LameLefty;
> 
> Though I think you meant starting from a substantially higher "perigee"
> is important too.


Actually, I meant apogee.  I wasn't exaggerating when I said plane changes are really expensive in terms of the required change in velocity and resulting fuel. Because of the way the equations work out, to minimize this, plane changes are usually made at a point where the velocity of the satellite is a minimum: at apogee for an elliptical orbit. So a higher initial apogee is a good thing.


----------



## woj027

Reading the Mission overview PDF about the Proton and DTV-12 it says;

"it will expand DIRECTV’s HD capacity by 50 percent to more than 200 national channels"

How does one satellite (that is said somewhere to be the same as two others D10, D11) double the capacity? Is D10 or D11 not providing any HD service? are they both at 1/2 strength? Will D12 carry more transponders, and therefore not have the same payload as D10 and D11?

Is that answered here?
"The powerful 131-transponder payload integrates 32 active and 12 spare TWTAs (Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers) at Ka-band for national service and 55 active and 15 spare TWTAs for spot beams. "

Is that more or less than what D10 and D11 have? In Sixto's Current HD Listings, there are 14 transponders on D10 and D12. Is a TWTa the same as a Transponder in our book? If so D12 has 18 more transponders

Then 32x5 (5 being the max per transponder) = 160 is that how we double the 131 HD Channels that Sixto has already counted? 

Or, am I pulling numbers and info from the wrong places? And I should leave the math to the rest of you?


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> "it will expand DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50 percent to more than 200 national channels"


D10+D11 is 140 slots (14x5x2) of bandwidth. D12 is 80 (16x5) more. ~50% more.

Not every transponder is 5, so not exact.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> D10+D11 is 140 slots (14x5x2) of bandwidth. D12 is 80 (16x5) more. ~50% more.
> 
> Not every transponder is 5, so not exact.


My bad, I was taking 50% more to mean Doubling.

50% of 140 is 70 so that makes sense. Once again My Bad.

Also, Does the 16 you refer to come from half of 32? or is there some other location you derive the 16 number?

Just curious.


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> My bad, I was taking 50% more to mean Doubling.
> 
> 50% of 140 is 70 so that makes sense. Once again My Bad.
> 
> Also, Does the 16 you refer to come from half of 32? or is there some other location you derive the 16 number?
> 
> Just curious.


The 16 is from the FCC filing. See post#1 for more details. There are 16 national transponders and 10 spot transponders.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> D10+D11 is 140 slots (14x5x2) of bandwidth. D12 is 80 (16x5) more. ~50% more.
> 
> Not every transponder is 5, so not exact.


Oh yea, I understand not every transponder has 5 concept. But that does prompt another question. What happens when somebody (lets say Mark Cuban) decides to start broadcasting in 1080p, will that most likely use 1/4 a transponder instead of the comon 1/5 per 720p/1080i channel like we see with the 1080p cinema channels?


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> D10+D11 is 140 slots (14x5x2) of bandwidth. D12 is 80 (16x5) more. ~50% more.
> 
> Not every transponder is 5, so not exact.





Sixto said:


> The 16 is from the FCC filing. See post#1 for more details. There are 16 national transponders and 10 spot transponders.


Ok thanks. Maybe I'll leave all the smart stuff to you guys, instead of trying to read something into the stuff I don't understand in the first place.

Thanks again, for setting me straight.


----------



## hilmar2k

woj027 said:


> Reading the Mission overview PDF about the Proton and DTV-12 it says;
> 
> "it will expand DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50 percent to more than 200 national channels"
> 
> How does one satellite (that is said somewhere to be the same as two others D10, D11) double the capacity? Is D10 or D11 not providing any HD service? are they both at 1/2 strength? Will D12 carry more transponders, and therefore not have the same payload as D10 and D11?
> 
> Is that answered here?
> "The powerful 131-transponder payload integrates 32 active and 12 spare TWTAs (Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers) at Ka-band for national service and 55 active and 15 spare TWTAs for spot beams. "
> 
> Is that more or less than what D10 and D11 have? In Sixto's Current HD Listings, there are 14 transponders on D10 and D12. Is a TWTa the same as a Transponder in our book? If so D12 has 18 more transponders
> 
> Then 32x5 (5 being the max per transponder) = 160 is that how we double the 131 HD Channels that Sixto has already counted?
> 
> Or, am I pulling numbers and info from the wrong places? And I should leave the math to the rest of you?


Uh, because 50% more isn't double. That would be 100% more.

EDIT: Didn't see post 816.


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> Ok thanks. Maybe I'll leave all the smart stuff to you guys, instead of trying to read something into the stuff I don't understand in the first place.
> 
> Thanks again, for setting me straight.


This post (from Tom) may also help: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869688#post869688

TWTA's are doubled up.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Actually, I meant apogee.  I wasn't exaggerating when I said plane changes are really expensive in terms of the required change in velocity and resulting fuel. Because of the way the equations work out, to minimize this, plane changes are usually made at a point where the velocity of the satellite is a minimum: at apogee for an elliptical orbit. So a higher initial apogee is a good thing.


Understood, and thanks;

Misread the apogee listing of D12 earlier and thought is was actually lower than W7's at GTO.


----------



## Shades228

woj027 said:


> Oh yea, I understand not every transponder has 5 concept. But that does prompt another question. What happens when somebody (lets say Mark Cuban) decides to start broadcasting in 1080p, will that most likely use 1/4 a transponder instead of the comon 1/5 per 720p/1080i channel like we see with the 1080p cinema channels?


1080p/24 actually uses less space than 720/1080i.


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> Oh yea, I understand not every transponder has 5 concept. But that does prompt another question. What happens when somebody (lets say Mark Cuban) decides to start broadcasting in 1080p, will that most likely use 1/4 a transponder instead of the comon 1/5 per 720p/1080i channel like we see with the 1080p cinema channels?


There are already some transponders which I label as high bandwidth, where it looks like they already need more then the usual bandwidth per channel.

Would expect that some of the D12 bandwidth may be used in the future for higher bitrate 1080p60 then is being used today, with the appropriate future 1080p60 hardware. Just guessing, but seems likely some day.


----------



## woj027

hilmar2k said:


> Uh, because 50% more isn't double. That would be 100% more.
> 
> EDIT: Didn't see post 816.


nothing beats posting simple math errors on the internet for all to see :nono2:


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> This post (from Tom) may also help: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869688#post869688
> 
> *TWTA's are doubled up.*


Just a note: This doubling of parallel 130 watt TWTA configurations for 260 watts combined is correct for the "CONUS/Alaska" beams. However, how D12 and it's brothers D10, and 11 "CONUS/Hawaii" separate set of 4 active transponders (and four spares) technically fits into the picture to supply national HD programming to the Hawaiian Islands, I can't find any specific technical information on.

Though I certainly wish I could if any.


----------



## Indiana627

I know where I'll be 4 weeks and 44 minutes from now! Go D12 - my LIL HD hopes are riding with you!


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> Very cool. That 6:22 p.m. CDT, perfect time to watch after work.


CDT? Some rocket scientist you are.  Don't know about you folks out west, but Daylight Saving Time ended about a month ago in the Eastern Time Zone.



woj027 said:


> nothing beats posting simple math errors on the internet for all to see


Or time zone errors. 

Seriously, to LameLefty, Sixto, and everybody else who is contributing to this thread. thank you for your efforts.


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> CDT? Some rocket scientist you are.  Don't know about you folks out west, but Daylight Saving Time ended about a month ago in the Eastern Time Zone.


Habit. It seems "Daylight Savings Time" lasts longer than "Standard Time" these days. :grin:



> Seriously, to LameLefty, Sixto, and everybody else who is contributing to this thread. thank you for your efforts.


Thanks, we try!


----------



## carl6

LameLefty said:


> Habit. It seems "Daylight Savings Time" lasts longer than "Standard Time" these days. :grin:


Hmmm. Maybe we should call that "standard time" and the remaining months "daylight lost time" :lol:

I also want to thank the smart people in this thread for managing to explain very complex issues in simple enough terms for the rest of us to understand.


----------



## doctor j

Further data mining on the ILS Launch site reveals some other interesting data!

Look at D12 and 3 prior launches re:separated satellite mass:

D-12 12/29/2009 5900 kg
W-7 11/24/2009 5627 kg
Nimiq-5  9/17/2009 4745 kg
AsiaSat-5 8/11/2009 3760 kg


However to be honest earlier launches were:

SiriusFM-5 6/30/2009 5820 kg
Protostar-2 5/16/2009 4000 kg
Eutelsat-W2a 4/3/2009 5900 kg

The other interesting feature is that Eutetsat W2a used a 48 degree launch inclination.
5900 kg satellite mass must be pushing the maximum lift of the Proton/Breeze-M launch vehicle and the shallower launch angle must be used to obtain the correct transfer orbit. 

Maybe I could grow up to be a Rocket Scientist one day

Doctor j


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> Habit. It seems "Daylight Savings Time" lasts longer than "Standard Time" these days. :grin:
> 
> Thanks, we try!


Sorry to be so pedant, but it's actually daylight saving time, no s in daylight.


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> 5900 kg satellite mass must be pushing the maximum lift of the Proton/Breeze-M launch vehicle and the shallower launch angle must be used to obtain the correct transfer orbit.


Yep. 

If ILS had an equatorial launch site, they could orbit substantially larger satellites with the same booster. However, at this time, these 702-based satellites are about the largest comsats anyone needs. So from the equator, even the substantially smaller Zenit used by SeaLaunch can do the job.


----------



## LameLefty

raoul5788 said:


> Sorry to be so pedant, but it's actually daylight saving time, no s in daylight.


"Pedantic" is the correct adjective. "Pedant" is a noun. :lol:


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> "Pedantic" is the correct adjective. "Pedant" is a noun. :lol:


Okay then, I hate to be such a pedant!


----------



## rrrick8

D12 Launch is in


----------



## smiddy

rrrick8 said:


> D12 Launch is in


Nice, now if we can get an app for that on the front page here and for my Palm Pre I would be so stoked!


----------



## Sixto

rrrick8 said:


> D12 Launch is in


Post#1 now has the countdown clock.

Thanks to rrrick8!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Post#1 now has the countdown clock.
> 
> Thanks to rrrick8!


Somebody's gonna owe me a new F5 key.


----------



## HoTat2

smiddy said:


> Nice, now if we can get an app for that on the front page here and for my Palm Pre I would be so stoked!


Yeah...

And/or it would be nice if there was a widget app. of the countdown clock for placing on my PC's desktop as well.


----------



## rrrick8

smiddy said:


> Nice, now if we can get an app for that on the front page here and for my Palm Pre I would be so stoked!


Here you go. It works and looks good on my IPhone anyway.
Save it to your Home screen.

http://vermilionweather.com/D12launch.php


----------



## rrrick8

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Somebody's gonna owe me a new F5 key.


I've sent Sixto a new code that will make the script "Live" with no refresh needed. However it is javascript and I don't know if he'll be able to use it or not. 
Otherwise, here's an alternative....http://vermilionweather.com/D12launch.php


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rrrick8 said:


> I've sent Sixto a new code that will make the script "Live" with no refresh needed. However it is javascript and I don't know if he'll be able to use it or not.
> Otherwise, here's an alternative....http://vermilionweather.com/D12launch.php


Very nice..thanks.


----------



## LameLefty

rrrick8 said:


> Here you go. It works and looks good on my IPhone anyway.
> Save it to your Home screen.
> 
> http://vermilionweather.com/D12launch.php


Heh. This is great, thanks!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

If D12 is at the launch station and at the front of the line, why not launch it today, why does it gotta wait another 4 weeks?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> If D12 is at the launch station and at the front of the line, why not launch it today, why does it gotta wait another 4 weeks?


You're kidding right?

You don't just drop off a satellite, forklift it on top of a rocket, and start the countdown. :eek2:

It takes time to properly "stage" the unit, secure all the proper connections, test all the rocket connectivity, do a ground test of any corresponding components for tracking, and probably 1000 more tests to assure a safe and reliable launch.

Doing this in about a month, in and of itself, is amazing, but done based on alot of the experience these folks have in performing launches.

With hundreds of millions of dollars at stake...no room for error.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> If D12 is at the launch station and at the front of the line, why not launch it today, why does it gotta wait another 4 weeks?


Here's some of the steps: http://www.ilslaunch.com/W7-blog

posts 1-4 at the bottom of page-1 have most of it.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Here's some of the steps: http://www.ilslaunch.com/W7-blog
> 
> posts 1-4 at the bottom of page-1 have most of it.


Kool thanks


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> You don't just drop off a satellite, forklift it on top of a rocket, and start the countdown. :eek2:
> 
> It takes time to properly "stage" the unit, secure all the proper connections, test all the rocket connectivity, do a ground test of any corresponding components for tracking, and probably 1000 more tests to assure a safe and reliable launch.
> 
> Doing this in about a month, in and of itself, is amazing, but done based on alot of the experience these folks have in performing launches.
> 
> With hundreds of millions of dollars at stake...no room for error.


I wasn't kidding, it was a serious question. Pardon my ignorance, I've never followed a satellite launch before.


----------



## LameLefty

Coca Cola Kid said:


> If D12 is at the launch station and at the front of the line, why not launch it today, why does it gotta wait another 4 weeks?


See below. 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> You don't just drop off a satellite, forklift it on top of a rocket, and start the countdown. :eek2:
> 
> It takes time to properly "stage" the unit, secure all the proper connections, test all the rocket connectivity, do a ground test of any corresponding components for tracking, and probably 1000 more tests to assure a safe and reliable launch.
> 
> Doing this in about a month, in and of itself, is amazing, but done based on alot of the experience these folks have in performing launches.
> 
> With hundreds of millions of dollars at stake...no room for error.


Yep. Plus all the tests of the ground support equipment - environmental conditioning for the launch vehicle itself; fueling equipment must be serviced thoroughly (the Proton uses hypergolics, which are very toxic and very hazardous and must be serviced in full environmental suits); tracking and guidance equipment must be services and verified, etc.



Sixto said:


> Here's some of the steps: http://www.ilslaunch.com/W7-blog
> 
> posts 1-4 at the bottom of page-1 have most of it.


That's a good general summary too.

Most important, perhaps, is the fact that the FCC still has to grant Directv authorization to launch and operate the satellite.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I wasn't kidding, it was a serious question. Pardon my ignorance, I've never followed a satellite launch before.


Kool. 

Sat launches are indeed something that you will enjoy, and likely want to see again in the future. In the case of D12, the rocket used is very powerful, and assuming the weather holds up, can be seen for several minutes after launch is initiated.

You can go to this link and actually see the same kind of rocket launch another (different) satellite that went up very recently - this will give you some idea of what D12's launch will look like.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/w7-launch-highlights


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Kool.
> 
> Sat launches are indeed something that you will enjoy, and likely want to see again in the future. In the case of D12, the rocket used is very powerful, and assuming the weather holds up, can be seen for several minutes after launch is initiated.
> 
> You can go to this link and actually see the same kind of rocket launch another (different) satellite that went up very recently - this will give you some idea of what D12's launch will look like.
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/w7-launch-highlights


I watched the Atlantis launch a few weeks ago on HDNet. Was interesting.


----------



## jazzyjez

Firstly, I just need to say how much I enjoy these launch threads - just so much interesting info... many thanks to the key guys who put so much into this (we all know who they are!)

There are a couple of things puzzling me though (hopefully these questions aren't too dumb for this thread or haven't already been covered, so here goes).

Since fuel conservation is so important, why start by going for such a northerly launch site? Wouldn't such large satellites be better launched from a near equatorial site such as Arianespace, or even Cape Canaveral would be better (further south) in this respect? Is it cost, availability, matching of satellite size to launch vehicle capability, or some complex mix of these and other factors?

How much do these things cost anyway - D12 itself, and the launch (fuel inclusive  ) - just a ballpark figure would be interesting, you know in case I want to start my own program some day.:lol:

As an aside, I see the Baikonur launch pad is #39 - was that named in deference to the Apollo program or is it just a coincidence?


----------



## netraa

LameLefty said:


> Yep. Plus all the tests of the ground support equipment - environmental conditioning for the launch vehicle itself; fueling equipment must be serviced thoroughly (the Proton uses hypergolics, which are very toxic and very hazardous and must be serviced in full environmental suits); tracking and guidance equipment must be services and verified, etc.


And, based off the w7 launch delay.... they have to pay off the Kazakhs to allow the flyover. :lol:


----------



## Bob Coxner

LameLefty said:


> Yep.
> 
> If ILS had an equatorial launch site, they could orbit substantially larger satellites with the same booster. However, at this time, these 702-based satellites are about the largest comsats anyone needs. So from the equator, even the substantially smaller Zenit used by SeaLaunch can do the job.


I'm curious why I never hear Guiana and the Ariane system mentioned in these discussions. Are the DTV sats too heavy for Ariane or is there some other explanation?


----------



## dettxw

Better late than never I guess:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=967

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Dec. 1, 2009 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] announced today that DIRECTV 12 was shipped Nov. 25 from Boeing's satellite manufacturing facility in El Segundo to the Baikonur Cosmodrome launch facility in Kazakhstan. Upon arrival, the satellite will undergo final preparations for a December launch aboard an International Launch Services Proton/Breeze M rocket.

"Boeing has provided advanced satellite systems to DIRECTV for more than 16 years, and we are on track for a DIRECTV launch that will deliver superior commercial communications capabilities to our customer and help their business succeed through the use of Boeing technology," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "The successful launch and deployment of DIRECTV 12 will bring the best in digital television programming to DIRECTV's more than 18.4 million customers across the United States."

DIRECTV 12 is the 11th satellite Boeing has built for the nation's No. 1 satellite TV service, enabling DIRECTV to continue to broaden its lineup of digital television programming services and expand its customer base. The new satellite will increase DIRECTV's high-definition (HD) capacity by 50 percent, and when combined with the DIRECTV 10 and 11 satellites that launched in 2007 and 2008, will enable DIRECTV to deliver 200 national and 1,500 local HDTV channels to millions of U.S. households. DIRECTV 12's national and spot-beam Ka-band payloads are designed to receive and transmit programming throughout the continental United States, Alaska and Hawaii.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.


----------



## dettxw

On the spin table for mass properties test.


----------



## bobnielsen

Bob Coxner said:


> I'm curious why I never hear Guiana and the Ariane system mentioned in these discussions. Are the DTV sats too heavy for Ariane or is there some other explanation?


I suspect that Ariane launches are much more expensive. Directv-4S and 9S were launched by Ariane. I think there was enough capacity for additional payloads, as well.


----------



## Alan Gordon

DirecTV said:


> and when combined with the DIRECTV 10 and 11 satellites that launched in 2007 and 2008, will enable DIRECTV to deliver 200 national and 1,500 local HDTV channels to millions of U.S. households.


I would say it's funny how DirecTV was saying that SW1, SW2, D10, & D11 would allow them to offer 1,500 local HDTV channels, and now D12 is going to allow them to offer that many, but I'm guessing it's the fault of D10's spot-beam issue.

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

jazzyjez said:


> There are a couple of things puzzling me though (hopefully these questions aren't too dumb for this thread or haven't already been covered, so here goes).


No problem! Remember, there are no dumb questions, only dumb people . . .  Just kidding! Seriously, this stuff is fun to talk about so questions of any kind are all okay. 



> Since fuel conservation is so important, why start by going for such a northerly launch site? Wouldn't such large satellites be better launched from a near equatorial site such as Arianespace, or even Cape Canaveral would be better (further south) in this respect? Is it cost, availability, matching of satellite size to launch vehicle capability, or some complex mix of these and other factors?


To generalize broadly, for launches into geosynchronous transfer orbit, the closer to the equator the launch site, the higher the payload capability for any given launch vehicle. If Proton had an equatorial site, payload would go up SUBSTANTIALLY. However, it would then be "overkill" for a single launch. That's part of the reason that Ariane V hasn't been used for many Directv launches - it was originally conceived and planned for launching the Hermes spaceplane; that project got axed but Ariane V went ahead and got built. A good number (most?) Ariane V launches carry two payloads to reduce per-customer costs. That means customers depend on not only Arianespace to get the booster ready, but the other customer to get THEIR payload ready too, and there are limits about mass and insertion orbits and such that have to be worked around when launching two satellites off a single booster. It's much more complex operationally. As a result, Arianespace is bouncing around plans to build a newer, smaller booster for single payloads.

But aside from that, it can cost in excess of a billion dollars to build a single launch site and all associated infrastructure from scratch. So ILS uses existing launch pads in Baikonur with boosters sized to do the job from there instead of building something else to use from another location (*). 
In the United States,ULA (United Launch Alliance) uses existing pads at Cape Canaveral for Atlas V and Delta II and IV launches, and SpaceX is using an existing pad there for their planned Falcon IX booster. It's cheaper to lease pads then it is to find land and build new.

(*) Slight aside: The Russians and Arianespace are cooperating on building a new launch pad at the Arianespace facility in French Guyana for unmanned Soyuz booster launches - the equatorial site provides a much greater payload capacity for the Soyuz and will provide a nicely-sized single-satellite launch capability. It remains to be seen if Arianespace will go forward with their plans for a new small booster in light of this cooperative arrangement.



> How much do these things cost anyway - D12 itself, and the launch (fuel inclusive  ) - just a ballpark figure would be interesting, you know in case I want to start my own program some day.:lol:


Last I saw, a Proton launch was estimated to run in the range of $80 - $100 million, plus the cost of the satellite itself. This could be outdated, however.



> As an aside, I see the Baikonur launch pad is #39 - was that named in deference to the Apollo program or is it just a coincidence?


I'm pretty sure it's coincidence but who knows?


----------



## P Smith

jazzyjez said:


> ...
> As an aside, I see the Baikonur launch pad is #39 - was that named in deference to the Apollo program or is it just a coincidence?


Last one - those numbers been assigned long before Apollo program - in 50s.


----------



## Sixto

New news (3:26pm): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395

More (4:06pm): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407

Testing schedule looks similar to D11 ...

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the DIRECTV 12 satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in−orbit testing for up to 30 days."

After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010].

After DirecTV-12 reaches 76°, DirecTV will commence in-orbit testing of the satellite for approximately 4 weeks.

After in-orbit testing is completed, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to it's assigned location over the course of approximately 20 days [reaching that orbital position no later than about 5/5/2010].

Updating ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> BSS testing schedule looks like ... same as D11 ...


:new_cussi

~Alan


----------



## Shades228

Sixto said:


> New news: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395
> 
> Testing schedule looks similar to D11 ...
> 
> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the DIRECTV 12 satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in−orbit testing for up to 30 days."
> 
> After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010].
> 
> After DirecTV-12 reaches 76°, DirecTV will commence in-orbit testing of the satellite for approximately 4 weeks.
> 
> After in-orbit testing is completed, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to it's assigned location over the course of approximately 20 days [reaching that orbital position no later than about 5/5/2010].
> 
> Updating ...


I think the key is up to 30 days.


----------



## P Smith

Shades228 said:


> I think the key is up to 30 days.


Looks like it 4x30 days = 120 days (almost half of year ).


----------



## Alan Gordon

Shades228 said:


> I think the key is up to 30 days.


You're right! It says approximately 4 weeks... so it should only be 28 days of testing! 

~Alan


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Looks like it 4x30 days = 120 days (almost half of year ).


Huh? 120/365 is much closer to 1/3rd... 

And 6 weeks to parking (Feb 15)
4 Weeks testing
3 weeks to final

That looks closer to 3 months not 4 months...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

The document also says the testing during IOT will consist of performance verification testing of all transponders and antenna pattern verification testing of all antenna beams. How much testing of spot beam patterns can they do at 76?


----------



## Sixto

Just added the 2nd Filing today to the previous post. Similar, but for the drift.


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> Looks like it 4x30 days = 120 days (almost half of year ).


Half a year?  Ummm half a year is 182.5, you're only 62.5 days off. :lol:

120 days is more like 4 months.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

120 Days = 4 months (X 30 days)
90 days = 30 months (X 30 days)

*6* weeks to parking (Feb 15)
*4* Weeks testing
*3* weeks to final
------
*13* Weeks = about 3 months + 1 week

WOW - we have some math flunkies here (except Tom)...:lol:

Looks like we'll have an active sat date of early April 2010.


----------



## P Smith

I see that posted date - *5/5/2010* as most realistic.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> New news (3:26pm): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395
> 
> More (4:06pm): http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407
> 
> Testing schedule looks similar to D11 ...
> 
> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the DIRECTV 12 satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in−orbit testing for up to 30 days."
> 
> After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010].
> 
> After DirecTV-12 reaches 76°, DirecTV will commence in-orbit testing of the satellite for approximately 4 weeks.
> 
> After in-orbit testing is completed, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to it's assigned location over the course of approximately 20 days [*reaching that orbital position no later than about 5/5/2010*].
> 
> Updating ...


So we won't get new HD channels til El Cinco de Mayo?


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So we won't get new HD channels til El Cinco de Mayo?


I hope they can at least add msmbc hd for the 2010 games and use some of the ppv space for new hd.


----------



## LameLefty

Interesting that they want to test right smack over northern South America. Makes me wonder what uplink facilities Directv has lined up in their Latin American markets suitable for testing. Also interesting that they don't specify what frequencies they are going to be testing during IOT; this STA is for Ka band TT&C only.


----------



## HoTat2

And how long might be the delay from D12's post-test arrival at 103 degrees nominal (102.675 degrees to be exact) until it's actual go active date? Another 30 days perhaps? We could be looking at late spring of 2010 for any programming from D12.

Man ... almost all the way until next summer to wait.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> And how long might be the delay from D12's post-test arrival at 103 degrees nominal (102.675 degrees to be exact) until it's actual go active date? Another 30 days perhaps? We could be looking at late spring of 2010 for any programming from D12.
> 
> Man ... almost all the way until next summer to wait.


I would hope not. I think they'd be able to go live within a week or so, assuming all the initial tests at 76W go well.


----------



## LameLefty

Another interesting thought: still no action by the FCC on the various BSS filings by Directv, Ciel and Spectrum Five.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> [reaching that orbital position no later than about 5/5/2010].





P Smith said:


> I see that posted date - *5/5/2010* as most realistic.


That has me worried. No new HD until May?


----------



## Smthkd

Okay this is getting hilarious. Directv is already advertising capacity for 200 HD channels. The sat hasn't launched yet. No report from FCC over Spectrum, Ciel complaint, Asking for 30 testing at 76W over S. America and then moving to its final resting spot at least by 5/2010...Hmmmm looks like a long new year!


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Okay this is getting hilarious.


Not anymore hilarious than people pining for one specific channel over and over again. :lol:


----------



## Smthkd

Ok now that is really funny!  I guess that include me too <----------------


----------



## Alan Gordon

TheRatPatrol said:


> That has me worried. No new HD until May?


If the launch is successful, maybe they might throw us a few bones before then... especially with Sunday Ticket ending soon....

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Another interesting thought: still no action by the FCC on the various BSS filings by Directv, Ciel and Spectrum Five.


It may be very telling as to what was not filed today.

There's no reference to RB-2A/BSS (Callsign 2796) in the filings today.

Could be the next filing, or maybe RB-2A can wait for testing at 103°, or maybe something has changed.


----------



## HoTat2

Well...

Perhaps the undoubtably great excitement over the appearance of the new HD TIVO during this time will help keep our minds off D12's operational delay possibly until sometime between May and June 2010. :lol:


----------



## eandras

smiddy said:


> Nice, now if we can get an app for that on the front page here and for my Palm Pre I would be so stoked!


What about a TV App on Directv TV Apps site?


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> If the launch is successful, maybe they might throw us a few bones before then... especially with Sunday Ticket ending soon....
> 
> ~Alan


If all goes well with the launch, there may be a few added.

NFL Sunday Ticket needs a solid 17 HD Channels. That is much more then any other peak part-time need, including anything for the Olympics.

We may see a few, if they're mostly comfortable that D12 is ok, or they may just decide to have D12 fully tested first.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Well...
> 
> Perhaps the undoubtably great excitement over the appearance of the new HD TIVO during this time will help keep our minds off D12's operational delay possibly until sometime between May and June 2010. :lol:


To be honest, this testing plan, is somewhat what could have been expected.

103° is somewhat crowded at the moment, and they're using the same plan as D11, where they park at one location and then move to the final location later. D11 did it for BSS testing, but the same concept may be needed for D12 to address it's overlap of frequencies with D10 and SW1. Actually makes alot of sense, and again, probably expected.


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Ok now that is really funny!  I guess that include me too <----------------


Just teasin' . . .  Let's not get too serious about any of this stuff, especially dates in filings that could go either way as things move ahead.

For perspective, we have to remember that D10, 11 and 12 are each meant to operate for 15 years. A few weeks either way is just not something to get too worked up over. At least for me, being the parent of two teenagers (and another who will be in 18 months) gives me enough gray hair as it is. :grin:


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Just teasin' . . .  Let's not get too serious about any of this stuff, especially dates in filings that could go either way as things move ahead.
> 
> For perspective, we have to remember that D10, 11 and 12 are each meant to operate for 15 years. A few weeks either way is just not something to get too worked up over. At least for me, being the parent of two teenagers (and another who will be in 18 months) gives me enough gray hair as it is. :grin:


Absolutely agree.

The great news, the truly great news, is that the satellite is in Baikonur, there's a full team on-site, and this puppy is getting launched. There could have been many scenarios where for technical or economic reasons they decided to push this off into the future, especially when they gave up the last slot to W7.

We still have to get it launched, and successfully tested, but no stopping it now that the team is on-site.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

All I know is when I hear "All operations on D12 are NOM EE NAL", I'll rest easy and look forward to the 2010 new things in store for HD viewing.


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah...
> 
> And/or it would be nice if there was a widget app. of the countdown clock for placing on my PC's desktop as well.


Good call, access that puppy on the EQ!


----------



## smiddy

rrrick8 said:


> Here you go. It works and looks good on my IPhone anyway.
> Save it to your Home screen.
> 
> http://vermilionweather.com/D12launch.php


Awesome man, thanks!


----------



## Sixto

Today's ILS Blog update (12/2/2009): http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12"Boeing continues to perform their standalone SC operations on schedule. This includes electrical checks of the SC, and preparations for the loading of the SC with propellants ..."​


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, here's the actual application for special temporary authority to test at 76W . . .

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

This goes along with the stuff posted yesterday about permission to drift from 76W to 103W after testing is done.

There were also a slew of filings yesterday related to satellite Earth stations in regards to using them to conduct TT&C operations with Directv 12 after launch and orbit raising, and then during testing and drifting to the final slot. These appear to refer to sites in New Hampshire and Castle Rock, Colorado.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Okay, here's the actual application for special temporary authority to test at 76W . .


Yep, the documents posted yesterday came from that application (132) and the 2nd one (133). One is for the testing and one is for the drift.

SAT-STA-20091201-00132 is for the testing.

SAT-STA-20091201-00133 is for the drift.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Today's ILS Blog update (12/2/2009): http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12"Boeing continues to perform their standalone SC operations on schedule. This includes electrical checks of the SC, and preparations for the loading of the SC with propellants ..."​


And assuming D12 roughly follows the same path as W7's preprocessing descriptions I assume the SC checkout by Boeing technicians is taking place inside the same "Hall 103A" as W7 did, while flight pre-processing for the Breeze-M, Payload Adapter (or "PLA"), Payload Fairings (or "PLF"), etc. will be preformed by KhSC employees primarily in "Hall 101." with the Proton booster's work itself in "Hall 111" also by KhSC.

Wherever any of these places are inside building "92A-50." Though you would think Baikonur's management could come up with something more imaginative for proper names of these facilities instead of such non-desrcript numbers ...


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> There were also a slew of filings yesterday related to satellite Earth stations in regards to using them to conduct TT&C operations with Directv 12 after launch and orbit raising, and then during testing and drifting to the final slot. These appear to refer to sites in New Hampshire and Castle Rock, Colorado.


Lefty, great point.

Here's one of those for everyone: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784432

Will add to post#1.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Lefty, great point.
> 
> Here's one of those for everyone: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784432


That's a good, simple narrative anyone can understand. :up:


----------



## kevinturcotte

So what's the _earliest_ we could see D12 actually light up and start broadcasting? What's likely?


----------



## Sixto

kevinturcotte said:


> So what's the _earliest_ we could see D12 actually light up and start broadcasting? What's likely?


Earliest, best case, all goes perfectly: Early April. Doubt that there's any chance of March, unless they decide to accelerate the current schedule.

Otherwise: Late April, Early May, or later if significant issues arise.

And, as has been posted a few times, and in post#1:

D10 launched 7/7/2007, went "live" 9/26/2007 (81 days), with about a week delay due to spot beam and authorization issues.
D11 launched 3/19/2008, went "live" 7/31/2008 (134 days), with about a 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. D11 got to it's first test location 5/25/2008.
D12 seems to be right between the two, in the 90-120 day range.


----------



## Laker44

HoTat2 said:


> And assuming D12 roughly follows the same path as W7's preprocessing descriptions I assume the SC checkout by Boeing technicians is taking place inside the same "Hall 103A" as W7 did, while flight pre-processing for the Breeze-M, Payload Adapter (or "PLA"), Payload Fairings (or "PLF"), etc. will be preformed by KhSC employees primarily in "Hall 101." with the Proton booster's work itself in "Hall 111" also by KhSC.
> 
> Wherever any of these places are inside building "92A-50." Though you would think Baikonur's management could come up with something more imaginative for proper names of these facilities instead of such non-desrcript numbers ...


Makes it look like Area 51.


----------



## Laker44

Sixto said:


> Earliest, best case, all goes perfectly: Early April. Doubt that there's any chance of March, unless they decide to accelerate the current schedule.
> 
> Otherwise: Late April, Early May, or later if significant issues arise.
> 
> And, as has been posted a few times, and in post#1:
> 
> D10 launched 7/7/2007, went "live" 9/26/2007 (81 days), with about a week delay due to spot beam and authorization issues.
> D11 launched 3/19/2008, went "live" 7/31/2008 (134 days), with about a 6-8 week delay due to BSS testing. D11 got to it's first test location 5/25/2008.
> D12 seems to be right between the two, in the 90-120 day range.


Hope it's like D 10


----------



## Sixto

Laker44 said:


> Hope it's like D 10


Me too , but D12 will make a stop at a temporary test location, like D11. Adds a few weeks (at least), to park at one location, power-up everything, then cautiously drift to and park at the final location.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Me too , but D12 will make a stop at a temporary test location, like D11. Adds a few weeks (at least), to park at one location, power-up everything, then cautiously drift to and park at the final location.


There is no doubt it will seem like it is taking forever to happen (it is now for that matter, for me).


----------



## LameLefty

Just FYI, here's a satellite view of Pad 39 in Baikonur

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...,63.037448&spn=0.017815,0.056992&z=15&iwloc=A


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Just FYI, here's a satellite view of Pad 39 in Baikonur
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=46%C2%B0+2'23.85%22N,+63%C2%B0+1'54.98%22E&ie=UTF8&t=k&om=0&ll=46.038595,63.037448&spn=0.017815,0.056992&z=15&iwloc=A


Where are the trees?


----------



## Sixto

RB-2A filing today (12/02/2009) ... updating ...

RB-2A : SAT-STA-20091202-00136
"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the RB-2A satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location toconduct in-orbit testing for up to 30 days."​
Similar to D12 filing from yesterday: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784565


----------



## woj027

smiddy said:


> Where are the trees?


all those rockets burn hot!!!!


----------



## ruthiesea

LameLefty said:


> Just FYI, here's a satellite view of Pad 39 in Baikonur
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...,63.037448&spn=0.017815,0.056992&z=15&iwloc=A


Wouldn't it be great if we had a live satellite view? Watching the launch from space would be awsome. I live about 40 miles from Cape Canaveral and watching launches from ground level is getting to get old.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Where are the trees?


They launch from what is basically an arid desert.  And besides, that place would be declared an EPA Superfund site in about ten seconds if it was in the U.S.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> RB-2A filing today (12/02/2009) ... updating ...


Man, I just checked this morning and there was nothing. Rats!


----------



## Sixto

And now we have photos!http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> And now we have photos!http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​


I love the little fireman "mascot" in all the pics. :lol: Some people clearly know how to have fun at work.


----------



## smiddy

woj027 said:


> all those rockets burn hot!!!!


!rolling Or what LameLefty points out...



LameLefty said:


> They launch from what is basically an arid desert.  And besides, that place would be declared an EPA Superfund site in about ten seconds if it was in the U.S.


Yeah, we're so PC about everything, where's the sense of adventure? :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> !
> Yeah, we're so PC about everything, where's the sense of adventure? :lol:


UDMH and N2O4 are nasty substances.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> UDMH and N2O4 are nasty substances.


Anything with *hydrazine* in it is likely a a VERY toxic substance. I believe the F-16 uses it in its EPU.


----------



## RobertE

LameLefty said:


> I love the little fireman "mascot" in all the pics. :lol: Some people clearly know how to have fun at work.


There must be a story behind the little firefighter. Maybe his name is Nom E. Nal.


----------



## smiddy

!rolling Nice one RobertE!


----------



## Sixto

Update to the D12 application a few minutes ago (12/2/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784621​


----------



## RAD

I'm curious about the part that says D12 will replace the portion of the CONUS payload operating on the SW1 satellite. I thought the weren't using any CONUS transponders on SW1 or did I miss something?


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> I'm curious about the part that says D12 will replace the portion of the CONUS payload operating on the SW1 satellite. I thought the weren't using any CONUS transponders on SW1 or did I miss something?


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> Update to the D12 application a few minutes ago (12/2/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784621​


What, if any, CONUS broadcasts come from SW1?

Edit: It looks like several of us picked up on that.


----------



## Satelliteracer




----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> I'm curious about the part that says D12 will replace the portion of the CONUS payload operating on the SW1 satellite. I thought the weren't using any CONUS transponders on SW1 or did I miss something?





smiddy said:


> I was thinking the same thing.





bobnielsen said:


> What, if any, CONUS broadcasts come from SW1?


Here's my thinking on that, as both a lawyer (not licensed in your jurisdiction, blah blah blah  ) and an engineer . . .

Directv is LICENSED for CONUS Ka bandwidth. SW1 and 2 have FCC authorization for use of that CONUS bandwidth though apparently the technical aspects of their phased-array antennas have some kind of problem being utilized in a national capacity: either broadcast efficiency, edge shaping problems with a true CONUS beam, power usage, whatever. So although allowed by the FCC to broadcast a CONUS beam and authorized to do so, Directv has chosen not to use them in that way, at least normally. This seems backed up by Sixto, gct's, and DoctorJ's various bandwidth and transponder analyses.

So along comes D12, a couple years after D10 goes into service and a few years after SW1 and 2. Some lessons have been learned and incorporated into its configuration to allow Directv to more capably utilize its licensed spectrum.

So that's my story and I'm sticking with it. For now at least.


----------



## Sixto

I'd need to go back and check, but it seemed like it was possible to do some CONUS from SW1, but it wasn't currently configured that way.


----------



## LameLefty

Satelliteracer said:


> ...


Wooohoo!  :up: :goodjob:


----------



## RobertE

Sixto said:


> I'd need to go back and check, but it seemed like it was possible to do some CONUS from SW1, but it wasn't currently configured that way.


From my understanding SW1/2 can do conus, but it's terribly inefficient with regards to power usage.


----------



## Sixto

Satelliteracer said:


> <photo>


A beautiful sight!


----------



## Sixto

RobertE said:


> From my understanding SW1/2 can do conus, but it's terribly inefficient with regards to power usage.


it's slowly coming back to me


----------



## smiddy

Ok, thanks Lefty, RobertE and Sixto!

Nice picture Satelliteracer!


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> SW1 and 2 have FCC authorization for use of that CONUS bandwidth though apparently the technical aspects of their phased-array antennas have some kind of problem being utilized in a national capacity: either broadcast efficiency, edge shaping problems with a true CONUS beam, power usage, whatever. So although allowed by the FCC to broadcast a CONUS beam and authorized to do so, Directv has chosen not to use them in that way, at least normally. This seems backed up by Sixto, gct's, and DoctorJ's various bandwidth and transponder analyses.


And in fact , for the last month or so SW-1 has been unloaded from over 100 LIL channels to just ONE! I've posted about this without any good explaination.

One thought was usage of D-12 for Conus and LIL's and SW-1 used for some of the "future services" Directv has hinted at coming.

PID transponder data shows one lonely LIL channel in use. What the rest of the 6000 Kg satellite is doing is a mystery to me!??

Doctor j


----------



## Christopher Gould

doctor j said:


> And in fact , for the last month or so SW-1 has been unloaded from over 100 LIL channels to just ONE! I've posted about this without any good explaination.
> 
> One thought was usage of D-12 for Conus and LIL's and SW-1 used for some of the "future services" Directv has hinted at coming.
> 
> PID transponder data shows one lonely LIL channel in use. What the rest of the 6000 Kg satellite is doing is a mystery to me!??
> 
> Doctor j


i think they are goimg to do some kind of movie download service like XstreamHD


----------



## freerein100

They produce hydrazine, ultra-hydrazine, and pool chemicals(same facility different company) about 12 miles away from my house


----------



## ekgermann

Sixto said:


> And now we have photos!http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​


Wonder how much insurance they have on the one link in that hoist there ...


----------



## HoTat2

Christopher Gould said:


> i think they are goimg to do some kind of movie download service like XstreamHD


But how would a spotbeam bird like the Spaceways facilitate such a nationwide download service? It seems you would obviously need a CONUS coverage satellite beam for something like that I would think.

To be honest, once relived of all LiL duties, I'm not sure what worthwhile the Spaceways could be re-tasked for given their spotbeam only limitations.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> If all goes well with the launch, there may be a few added.
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket needs a solid 17 HD Channels. That is much more then any other peak part-time need, including anything for the Olympics.


But is that coming out of otherwise unused capacity, or do they borrow any or most of that required capacity from PPV channels?


----------



## P Smith

doctor j said:


> ..
> PID transponder data shows one lonely LIL channel in use. What the rest of the 6000 Kg satellite is doing is a mystery to me!??
> 
> Doctor j


That's where spectrum analyzer could be handy.


----------



## lwilli201

So where is the additional bandwidth coming from for all the new national HD channels if D12 will be using the already allocated spectrum?


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> But is that coming out of otherwise unused capacity, or do they borrow any or most of that required capacity from PPV channels?


Almost all of the D10/D11 capacity is being used. See the maps.

Then there's 29 HD channels of shared bandwidth, used for Cinema HD when part-time channels are not needed.

The absolute peak part-time need is Sunday afternoon during the NFL season, especially when Hotpass is active, along with either MLB EI or NBA LP/NHL CI non 24x7 RSN's. The peak need is in the mid to upper 20's.

Once the NFL season ends, the peak is much less, until the Fall.

The debate is when DirecTV will be comfortable adding channels. Will they wait for D12 to be fully tested or sometime before.

The other wildcard/unknown is specifically what the Cinema HD contracts are with the studios.

There's also seven D10/D11 transponders with only 4 (instead of 5) HD channels assigned. One assumption has been that the NFL games need the extra bandwidth, but not proven.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Sixto said:


> Almost all of the D10/D11 capacity is being used. See the maps.
> 
> Then there's 29 HD channels of shared bandwidth, used for Cinema HD when part-time channels are not needed.
> 
> The absolute peak part-time need is Sunday afternoon during the NFL season, especially when Hotpass is active, along with either MLB EI or NBA LP/NHL CI non 24x7 RSN's. The peak need is in the mid to upper 20's.
> 
> Once the NFL season ends, the peak is much less, until the Fall.
> 
> The debate is when DirecTV will be comfortable adding channels. Will they wait for D12 to be fully tested or sometime before.
> 
> The other wildcard/unknown is specifically what the Cinema HD contracts are with the studios.


When does the NFL season end?


----------



## Sixto

kevinturcotte said:


> When does the NFL season end?


15 games plus Mix and Redzone on 1/3/2010.


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> So where is the additional bandwidth coming from for all the new national HD channels if D12 will be using the already allocated spectrum?


The D12 national HD channels will using bandwidth previously used for SW1 LiL. See post#1 for all the details.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> But how would a spotbeam bird like the Spaceways facilitate such a nationwide download service? It seems you would obviously need a CONUS coverage satellite beam for something like that I would think.
> 
> To be honest, once relived of all LiL duties, I'm not sure what worthwhile the Spaceways could be re-tasked for given their spotbeam only limitations.


This is purely hypothetical, so take it with a grain of salt . . . But it occurs to me that the first planned use of the Spaceways was for direct-to-home satellite internet service. It seems that perhaps the spotbeams and data handling capabilities might be used to "dump" programming at better-than-realitime speeds to targeted DVR systems for a more "on demand" type of experience - in other words, a DOD system that doesn't rely on broadband.

But this is just a thought.


----------



## RAD

HoTat2 said:


> But how would a spotbeam bird like the Spaceways facilitate such a nationwide download service? It seems you would obviously need a CONUS coverage satellite beam for something like that I would think.
> 
> To be honest, once relived of all LiL duties, I'm not sure what worthwhile the Spaceways could be re-tasked for given their spotbeam only limitations.





LameLefty said:


> This is purely hypothetical, so take it with a grain of salt . . . But it occurs to me that the first planned use of the Spaceways was for direct-to-home satellite internet service. It seems that perhaps the spotbeams and data handling capabilities might be used to "dump" programming at better-than-realitime speeds to targeted DVR systems for a more "on demand" type of experience - in other words, a DOD system that doesn't rely on broadband.
> 
> But this is just a thought.


Also just guessing, wouldn't being able to use spotbeams be a good fit for a service like that. I request a DoD movie why broadcast via CONUS beam that request when all they need to do is send it via my spot which also frees up other spotbeams to handle other download requests.


----------



## doctor j

RAD said:


> Also just guessing, wouldn't being able to use spotbeams be a good fit for a service like that. I request a DoD movie why broadcast via CONUS beam that request when all they need to do is send it via my spot which also frees up other spotbeams to handle other download requests.


If I recall correctly the original spotbeam pattern of the spaceways was over 100 in a grid covering the entire Continental US.
That could certainly allow for more specific data delivery.

Doctor j


----------



## Tom Robertson

The Spaceways are incredibly flexible! And, in theory, they _could _ do a CONUS. And not much else. The power bus doesn't provide enough power in reality. (Reality is such a harsh mistress compared to theory...) 

Right now, the Spaceways have been in "dumb" "bent pipe" mode. What does up, comes right back down.

With D10-D12 handling all the LIL's the spaceways can use fewer transponder frequencies in hopping (and self adjusting) spotbeams to provide "something else" than we've seen before. Lots of guessing is permitted--someone perhaps should start a new thread of guessing 

And the whole Ka space likely can see more spotbeams on the existing frequencies without conflict. I'm sure the bandwidth guys at DIRECTV have more tricks up their sleeves. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RobertE

I can't find any of my reference materials, but stating that the Spaceways are very flexible is an understatement. 

I'm not sure how closely SW3 (used for Hughesnet service) resembles SW1/2, but it can be do so amazing stuff. It's spots can be very, very tight. So much so, that you need to use a GPS to get your exact coordinates for the proper settings for the HNS9000's. The spots can be smaller than a lot of zip codes. Thats just for starters.


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> The Spaceways are incredibly flexible! And, in theory, they _could _ do a CONUS. And not much else. The power bus doesn't provide enough power in reality. (Reality is such a harsh mistress compared to theory...)
> 
> Right now, the Spaceways have been in "dumb" "bent pipe" mode. What does up, comes right back down.
> 
> With D10-D12 handling all the LIL's the spaceways can use fewer transponder frequencies in hopping (and self adjusting) spotbeams to provide "something else" than we've seen before. Lots of guessing is permitted--someone perhaps should start a new thread of guessing
> 
> And the whole Ka space likely can see more spotbeams on the existing frequencies without conflict. I'm sure the bandwidth guys at DIRECTV have more tricks up their sleeves.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ok, I'll bite! But I wonder if it will be a sticky! 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=169094


----------



## rrrick8

Satelliteracer said:


> Posted image


D12launch background updated. Thanks.

Edit: For those that missed it posted earlier, the above link is a D12 launch countdown for your cell phone.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Using SW1 has a "high speed" internet download for a HD PPV would be nice and would work with the HD DVRs and free up a good amount of bandwidth. How would people with just a HD reciever get HD PPV w/o a HD DVR to do MRV?


----------



## inkahauts

kevinwmsn said:


> Using SW1 has a "high speed" internet download for a HD PPV would be nice and would work with the HD DVRs and free up a good amount of bandwidth. How would people with just a HD reciever get HD PPV w/o a HD DVR to do MRV?


Directvs long term stated goal is to only sell whole home dvr's, and then have clients for mrving.. so it fits in well with that plan...

Check out the new speculation thread for SW1!
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=169094


----------



## Tom Robertson

RobertE said:


> I can't find any of my reference materials, but stating that the Spaceways are very flexible is an understatement.
> 
> I'm not sure how closely SW3 (used for Hughesnet service) resembles SW1/2, but it can be do so amazing stuff. It's spots can be very, very tight. So much so, that you need to use a GPS to get your exact coordinates for the proper settings for the HNS9000's. The spots can be smaller than a lot of zip codes. Thats just for starters.


Fortunately we have resources right here for you: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=869687#post869687 

As I recall, .5° was about a 200 mile diameter.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## doctor j

All spaceways original configurations were the same.
Here is the spotbeam grid i had recalled:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/broadband-forum/127859-spaceway-3-hughes-ka-coverage-maps.html

112 uplinks for satellite internet.
7 cells per area.
1275 streams per cell
10Gb per second thruput.

LOTS of options.

Doctor j


----------



## RobertE

doctor j said:


> All spaceways original configurations were the same.
> Here is the spotbeam grid i had recalled:
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/broadband-forum/127859-spaceway-3-hughes-ka-coverage-maps.html
> 
> 112 uplinks for satellite internet.
> 7 cells per area.
> 1275 streams per cell
> 10Gb per second thruput.
> 
> LOTS of options.
> 
> Doctor j


Those look a lot like the maps that Hughes gave me way back when. Very flexible birds.


----------



## LameLefty

Here's an interesting bit of info from Russianspaceweb.com on some of the goings on around D12 and why the hurry to launch before the end of 2009:



> A Proton to launch the DirecTV 12 communications satellite from Baikonur. The mission was initially delayed from late September 2009 by a payload owner. As of mid-October 2009, an officially planned launch date in December 2009 was considered unlikely. The DirecTV mission conflicted with Proton's federal launch of the Globus satellite, which was likely to get priority over a commercial payload. In the meantime, the DirecTV mission was under pressure to launch before the end of 2009, in order to use an optimized launch azimuth enabling reaching an initial parking orbit with the inclination 48 degrees toward the Equator, agreed with the government of Kazakhstan. *It was expected to be the last mission heading to the 48-degree parking orbit, which enabled around 200 kilograms of extra payload delivered to the geostationary transfer orbit. In the wake of the JCSAT-11 failure, which landed debris within 40-50 kilometers of the town of Dzhezkazgan, Kazakhstan prohibited this particular launch path after 2009. *Even though different launch pads were available for DirecTV and Globus missions, the personnel availability would normally require a five-day break between Proton launches. The DirecTV launch was targeted for a Dec. 24 - Dec. 29 period or had to be delayed to the beginning of 2010. Around the end of November 2009, the Globus mission slipped to 2010, thus freeing the Dec. 29-30 launch window for DirecTV 12.


http://www.russianspaceweb.com/2009.html


----------



## Sixto

D12 Engadget article (a few days late ):http://hd.engadget.com/2009/12/03/directv-12-on-its-way-to-the-launch-site/​


----------



## smiddy

Good stuff LameLefty! Thanks!


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> D12 Engadget article (a few days late ):http://hd.engadget.com/2009/12/03/directv-12-on-its-way-to-the-launch-site/​


Picture is of D-11 and SeaLaunch

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Picture is of D-11 and SeaLaunch
> 
> Doctor j


Slackers. 

Only one true accurate source ...


----------



## bobnielsen

doctor j said:


> Picture is of D-11 and SeaLaunch
> 
> Doctor j


To further confuse matters, it looks like Sea Launch is now also using Kazakhstan for launches: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-sea-launch,0,7257369.story.


----------



## doctor j

bobnielsen said:


> To further confuse matters, it looks like Sea Launch is now also using Kazakhstan for launches: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-sea-launch,0,7257369.story.


And just had a sucessful launch on 11/30/2009, Intelsat 15!

http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/current_launch.htm

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> To further confuse matters, it looks like Sea Launch is now also using Kazakhstan for launches: http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-sea-launch,0,7257369.story.


Actually, they call that subsidiary operation "Land-Launch" (d'uh! ) - of course, the same sized Zenit launched from that far north has a much lower effective payload mass than one launched from the equator.


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> Picture is of D-11 and SeaLaunch
> 
> Doctor j


For some more nostalgia, here are some pictures that I took of the SeaLaunch vessel when D11 was loaded on it... about a day before it went out to sea... even though you can't actually see D11 or the rocket it's at the end of.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12587&d=1204420829

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12588&d=1204420856

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12589&d=1204420875

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12590&d=1204420901


----------



## longrider

This is my favorite DirecTV11 picture...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cartrivision said:


> For some more nostalgia, here are some pictures that I took of the SeaLaunch vessel when D11 was loaded on it... about a day before it went out to sea... even though you can't actually see D11 or the rocket it's at the end of.


Remember seeing those....very nice!


----------



## smiddy

I liked watching it on TV when it launched and that sexy Russian accent coming through saying, "Nom-mee-nall!"


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Will they have the launch live on the 101? in HD?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JoeTheDragon said:


> Will they have the launch live on the 101? in HD?


Not likely becuase of the location....but it will be streamed online like W7 before it was.....


----------



## smiddy

JoeTheDragon said:


> Will they have the launch live on the 101? in HD?


Oh, this is an awesome question! HD wasn't a choice last time, but DirecTV had a seperate channel for it...at least that will happen again, I'm sure.


----------



## lwilli201

I still have the D11 launch on my DVR. :grin:


----------



## Newshawk

I don't think they use the 101 network. IIRC, they use one of the private network channles in the 570s.


----------



## HoTat2

lwilli201 said:


> I still have the D11 launch on my DVR. :grin:


Hey, what a coincidence so do I actually ... 

The entire 2 hr. telecast originally aired on Wednesday 3/19/08 starting at 2:30 PM PST.

Ah what a memorable day it was ...


----------



## smiddy

lwilli201 said:


> I still have the D11 launch on my DVR. :grin:





HoTat2 said:


> Hey, what a coincidence so do I actually ...
> 
> The entire 2 hr. telecast originally aired on Wednesday 3/19/08 starting at 2:30 PM PST.
> 
> Ah what a memorable day it was ...


Now, how often do you two go back and relive that day?


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Newshawk said:


> I don't think they use the 101 network. IIRC, they use one of the private network channles in the 570s.


If they do can open it to all?


----------



## lwilli201

smiddy said:


> Now, how often do you two go back and relive that day?


Only one more time. That HR20-700 is going back to Directv since I have 3 more and one I am putting a 1TB external drive on. However, I may put in on a DVD. :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

So once D12 is live, how will it show up in our signal strength screen? Will a new 103° sat appear in addition to the "c" and "s" that already exist? Or will more transponders on the existing "c" and "s" sats show signal?


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> So once D12 is live, how will it show up in our signal strength screen? Will a new 103° sat appear in addition to the "c" and "s" that already exist? Or will more transponders on the existing "c" and "s" sats show signal?


The "real" transponder numbers of D10 and D12 overlap, so they'll need to be something new on screen if the intent is to display the "real" transponder numbers. Another option is to just virtualize the D12 transponder numbers and map TP9-24 to TP17-32, or some other format.

D10 (c) is 1-14. D12 (c) is 9-24.

SW1 / D10 (s) is 1-6, 15-24, D12 (s) is 15-24.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> The "real" transponder numbers of D10 and D12 overlap, so they'll need to be something new on screen if the intent is to display the "real" transponder numbers. Another option is to just virtualize the D12 transponder numbers and map TP9-24 to TP17-32, or some other format.
> 
> D10 (c) is 1-14. D12 (c) is 9-24.
> 
> SW1 (s) is 1-6, 15-24, D12 (s) is 15-24.


Those numbers are logical tpn numbers, not physical.


----------



## smiddy

Indiana627 said:


> So once D12 is live, how will it show up in our signal strength screen? Will a new 103° sat appear in addition to the "c" and "s" that already exist? Or will more transponders on the existing "c" and "s" sats show signal?





Sixto said:


> The "real" transponder numbers of D10 and D12 overlap, so they'll need to be something new on screen if the intent is to display the "real" transponder numbers. Another option is to just virtualize the D12 transponder numbers and map TP9-24 to TP17-32, or some other format.
> 
> D10 (c) is 1-14. D12 (c) is 9-24.
> 
> SW1 (s) is 1-6, 15-24, D12 (s) is 15-24.


This will be interesting to see how it unfolds since there are many different way to skin a cat (no offense cat lovers; just an expression). I'm sure we'll know when we know, you know?


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> The "real" transponder numbers of D10 and D12 overlap, so they'll need to be something new on screen if the intent is to display the "real" transponder numbers. *Another option is to just virtualize the D12 transponder numbers and map TP9-24 to TP17-32, or some other format.
> *
> D10 (c) is 1-14. D12 (c) is 9-24.
> 
> SW1 (s) is 1-6, 15-24, D12 (s) is 15-24.


The problem I see though with simply "virtualizing" the actual CONUS Tp. numbers from D12 and remapping them onto heretofore unused Tp. slots on the same 103(c) signal strength display screen is that I can't see how this would work on the pre-H/HR23 receivers which do not have wide-band tuners to see both the Ka band hi and lo segments simultaneously for display on the same screen.

The BBCs allow either the Ka A or B band through to a satellite tuner, but not both at the same time.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Those numbers are logical tpn numbers, not physical.


Correct, and matched the FCC filing.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> The problem I see though with simply "virtualizing" the actual CONUS Tp. numbers from D12 and remapping them onto heretofore unused Tp. slots on the same 103(c) signal strength display screen is that I can't see how this would work on the pre-H/HR23 receivers which do not have wide-band tuners to see both the Ka band hi and lo segments simultaneously for display on the same screen.
> 
> The BBCs allow either the Ka A or B band through to a satellite tuner, but not both at the same time.


The H2x and HR2x can receive the signals just fine (with SWM or BBC), so I'm sure that some creative programmer will come up with some pretty screens to show the data by transponder.

It's simple, they just need to decide on the screen layout.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So from a practical perspective....other than the final launch event itself...the only thing remaining are a couple FCC filings outstanding for approval?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So from a practical perspective....other than the final launch event itself...the only thing remaining are a couple FCC filings outstanding for approval?


yes, which will happen.


----------



## Sixto

Per Anik today (12/4/2009): "Proton-M rocket was delivered to Baikonur cosmodrome today. Briz-M upper stage has departed for fueling of high pressure tanks. "

Or if you've been brushing up on your Russian: http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8465


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> yes, which will happen.


Great!

The best thing, to me, about D12 finally being up there (and operational, of course) is that we should be able to put all the whining, debating, complaining, and frustration around bandwidth for HDTV to bed for some time.

With D10, D11, and D12 in place and activated...that provides an incredible amount of cumulative HDTV content bandwidth and delivery capacity, both LIL and National HD.


----------



## davring

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Great!
> 
> The best thing, to me, about D12 finally being up there (and operational, of course) is that we should be able to put all the whining, debating, complaining, and frustration around bandwidth for HDTV to bed for some time.
> 
> There will still be someone who is unhappy with some aspect of it all


----------



## hdtvfan0001

davring said:


> There will still be someone who is unhappy with some aspect of it all


True.....Dish customers and Dish staff to start with....

Then there's the cable world....:lol:

But D12 does pretty much bring some closure to the capacity issue, if at least for a while.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> The H2x and HR2x can receive the signals just fine (with SWM or BBC), so I'm sure that some creative programmer will come up with some pretty screens to show the data by transponder.
> 
> It's simple, they just need to decide on the screen layout.


Just for clarity, 

I never stated that any of the H2x and HR2x receivers had any trouble receiving all their necessary signals. But that the pre-H/HR23 units could not receive both the Ka-hi and lo band segments "SIMULTANEOUSLY." Therefore I could not see how the A band signal strengths can display on the same 103(c) screen with the B band signal levels at the same time.

The BBCs only allow either the A or B bands access to a tuner, not both simultaneously as with the wide-band H/HR23 series satellite tuners.

I realize this may be solved by what is probably minor design change to possibly two separate 103(c) screens, but I was just pointing out this problematic tidbit regarding the channel virtualization/remap approach to 103(c).


----------



## cartrivision

HoTat2 said:


> Just for clarity,
> 
> I never stated that any of the H2x and HR2x receivers had any trouble receiving all their necessary signals. But that the pre-H/HR23 units could not receive both the Ka-hi and lo band segments "SIMULTANEOUSLY." Therefore I could not see how the A band signal strengths can display on the same 103(c) screen with the B band signal levels at the same time.


There is no need to receive multiple bands simultaneously. The signal strength screen displays the signal levels by tuning the signal of a single transponder, calculating and displaying the signal level, and then moving on to the next transponder of interest.


----------



## smiddy

Yes, we can start the happy dance, woowho!


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> There is no need to receive multiple bands simultaneously. The signal strength screen displays the signal levels by tuning the signal of a single transponder, calculating and displaying the signal level, and then moving on to the next transponder of interest.


Got it, thanks for the info. ;

If transponders are indeed sequentially accessed this way on the signal strength screen, then I guess a channel remap for D12's CONUS transponders to presently unused slots on 103(c) is the most logical choice then.

I mean DirecTV has been treating Tps. 32, 30, and 28 at 110W as 12, 10, and 8 respectively for years now.


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> Got it, thanks for the info. ;
> 
> If transponders are indeed sequentially accessed this way on the signal strength screen, then I guess a channel remap for D12's CONUS transponders to presently unused slots on 103(c) is the most logical choice then.
> 
> I mean they have treating Tps. 32, 30, and 28 at 110W as 12, 10, and 8 respectively for years now.


You can see it refresh in this manor and has to be done like that anyway because the receiver can't receive both even an odd TPs at the same time anyway.


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> There is no need to receive multiple bands simultaneously. The signal strength screen displays the signal levels by tuning the signal of a single transponder, calculating and displaying the signal level, and then moving on to the next transponder of interest.


Exactly, it's one at a time.


----------



## bobnielsen

The stength indication for 99(s) and 103(s) changes bands between the D10/11 and SW1/2 TPs.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> The stength indication for 99(s) and 103(s) changes bands between the D10/11 and SW1/2 TPs.


Yep.

SW1/2 is TP1-6.

D10/D11/D12 LiL is TP15-24.


----------



## LameLefty

Interesting document filed yesterday by Directv concerning the initial operational testing that will be done on D12 . . . RF Tech-heads, rejoice. 

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784910


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Interesting document filed yesterday by Directv concerning the initial operational testing that will be done on D12 . . . RF Tech-heads, rejoice.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784910


Good thing we have the two of us finding this stuff. Each one is backing up the other ... thanks Lefty!

Great stuff.

Didn't think to look for a comment filing so early after the STA was filed!


----------



## smiddy

Kewl stuff, I wonder how many people will call that number?!


----------



## Maleman

smiddy said:


> Kewl stuff, I wonder how many people will call that number?!


This is all too technical for me so my only question is:

Once this is operational will the sat dish need realigning? *blush*


----------



## Sixto

Maleman said:


> This is all too technical for me so my only question is:
> 
> Once this is operational will the sat dish need realigning? *blush*


If you get high signal levels (90's) for D10 (103c) then you're fine.


----------



## Maleman

Sixto said:


> If you get high signal levels (90's) for D10 (103c) then you're fine.


14 transponders on 103c and the lowest I get today on sunny/clear day is 89 and it goes up from there with most being mid 90s.
Thanks for your help.


----------



## Sixto

Maleman said:


> 14 transponders on 103c and the lowest I get today on sunny/clear day is 89 and it goes up from there with most being mid 90s.
> Thanks for your help.


You're good to go. The D12 national channels will actually come from the old Spaceway-1 frequency range (103°: 19890-20200 MHz), but if you have high signals from D10 national (103°: 18300-18600 MHz), you're in good shape. Rain fade is a little worse with the higher range.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Or if you've been brushing up on your Russian: http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8465


I can read it just fine with the help of Google Translate

http://translate.google.com/transla...alspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8465&sl=ru&tl=en


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Interesting document filed yesterday by Directv concerning the initial operational testing that will be done on D12 . . . RF Tech-heads, rejoice.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784910


Curious;

Assuming D12's spotbeams are not steerable (or minimally at best) as are it's brother's D10 and 11, how does DirecTV manage to successfully place each one of the spotbeams over the CRBC for testing?

Physically reorient the satellite's attitude each time to center it there?


----------



## smiddy

Maleman said:


> This is all too technical for me so my only question is:
> 
> Once this is operational will the sat dish need realigning? *blush*


Nope, you should be already aligned prior to it getting into to its operational position.


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> Curious;
> 
> Assuming D12's spotbeams are not steerable (or minimally at best) as are it's brother's D10 and 11, how does DirecTV manage to successfully place each one of the spotbeams over the CRBC for testing?
> 
> Physically reorient the satellite's attitude each time to center it there?


I thought I saw that the antennas on some of the elements where arrays, those can be electronically steered. I will have to check on the others, they likely will have gimbals of some type.


----------



## HoTat2

smiddy said:


> I thought I saw that the antennas on some of the elements where arrays, those can be electronically steered. I will have to check on the others, they likely will have gimbals of some type.


Well, if there is there's no mention of any phased array antenna(s) in the specs. nor any evidence of it in the pictorials of the satellite. The spotbeams emanate from 4 separate 1.8 m offset dish antennas. And there is no mention of any of these dishes as being steerable or gimbal mounted.

Another thing which is kinda interesting about the spotbeam specifications is that while a maximum of 49 beams are specified with transmit antenna #1 assigned 12 beams, #2 - 13 beams, #3 - 11 beams, #4 - 13 beams equaling a total of 49.

The spotbeam connectivity chart list the maximum number of active spotbeam transponders grouped strategically (to avoid mutual interference I guess) of 1, 2 or 3 to a particular spotbeam and then dispersed to only 43 of them.

Ant. #1 - 11 beams, #2 - 10 beams, #3 - 11 beams, #4 - 11 beams, totaling 43.


----------



## LameLefty

My impression, from reading the specs and the letter I linked, is that the spacecraft will be physically oriented to point the beams toward the testing ground station. The solar arrays are gimbaled, and since all the beams won't be active at once, any reduced total power issues from off-nominal pointing of the arrays probably won't be a big deal. In addition, modern spacecraft usually maintain 3-axis stabilization via momentum wheels or control-moment gyroscopes, so all the repointing for the testing procedures shouldn't use up much fuel.


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> Well, if there is there's no mention of any phased array antenna(s) in the specs. nor any evidence of it in the pictorials of the satellite. The spotbeams emanate from 4 separate 1.8 m offset dish antennas. And there is no mention of any of these dishes as being steerable or gimbal mounted.
> 
> Another thing which is kinda interesting about the spotbeam specifications is that while a maximum of 49 beams are specified with transmit antenna #1 assigned 12 beams, #2 - 13 beams, #3 - 11 beams, #4 - 13 beams equaling a total of 49.
> 
> The spotbeam connectivity chart list the maximum number of active spotbeam transponders grouped strategically (to avoid mutual interference I guess) of 1, 2 or 3 to a particular spotbeam and then dispersed to only 43 of them.
> 
> Ant. #1 - 11 beams, #2 - 10 beams, #3 - 11 beams, #4 - 11 beams, totaling 43.


Yep, not having delved into it yet with any criticality, I don't know, though it is possible to have an array do everything you pointed out (multiple beams from an array). I will check though, when I'm able.



LameLefty said:


> My impression, from reading the specs and the letter I linked, is that the spacecraft will be physically oriented to point the beams toward the testing ground station. The solar arrays are gimbaled, and since all the beams won't be active at once, any reduced total power issues from off-nominal pointing of the arrays probably won't be a big deal. In addition, modern spacecraft usually maintain 3-axis stabilization via momentum wheels or control-moment gyroscopes, so all the repointing for the testing procedures shouldn't use up much fuel.


Based on what you say here, and the beam footprint on the earth around the Colorado area of regard, and the number of beams, if they are fixed, then they will be manuevering the satellite quite a bit in order to maintain that footprint. Here's where I needs some education; in using those gyros can they manuever the satellite into positions they need for that footprint if all the antenna are stationary (fix pointed to spots of regard) and does that make sense for the use as backups for other that fail from other payloads like D10 & D11? I guess that makes sense, but seems more efficient to have gimbaled antenna (even more so phased arrays), but this isn't an area where I have spent a lot of time on, though I will in the near future.


----------



## Sixto

Anik (12/7/2009): "High pressure tanks of Briz-M upper stage are fueled by propellants and compressed gases. Blocks of Proton-M rocket are unloading from rail-car, assembly of first stage has begun. DirecTV 12 is continuing to perform autonomous tests."

Russian: http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8496


----------



## Sixto

Anik (12/7/2009): "Actually, according to Novosti kosmonavtiki forum, yesterday satellite was fueled by oxidizer, and tomorrow will be fueled by propellants."


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Anik (12/7/2009): "Actually, according to Novosti kosmonavtiki forum, yesterday satellite was fueled by oxidizer, and tomorrow will be fueled by propellants."


Slight technical aside (no doubt due to translation/language issues): the chemical "propellants" of the spacecraft consist of "fuel" and "oxidizer", which combine to burn and produce thrust. The XIPS system uses a supply of xenon gas which is ionized and accelerated electrically to produce very low thrust but at very, very high efficiency. This type of propulsion is not very good for large, quick maneuvers but works remarkably well for long-duration missions which require very small amounts of thrust. It has no true "fuel" or "oxidizer," just mass which is accelerated and produces force as a result. As Sir Isaac deduced some 320-odd years ago, F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration).


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Slight technical aside (no doubt due to translation/language issues): the chemical "propellants" of the spacecraft consist of "fuel" and "oxidizer", which combine to burn and produce thrust. The XIPS system uses a supply of xenon gas which is ionized and accelerated electrically to produce very low thrust but at very, very high efficiency. This type of propulsion is not very good for large, quick maneuvers but works remarkably well for long-duration missions which require very small amounts of thrust. It has no true "fuel" or "oxidizer," just mass which is accelerated and produces force as a result. As Sir Isaac deduced some 320-odd years ago, F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration).


Yeah, my Ma was definitely a Force...


----------



## Sixto

ILS Blog Update (12/7/2009):"KhSC continues to process all the Proton and Breeze-M hardware, preparing for our late December launch, and the Boeing team has been doing an outstanding job processing the satellite. All SC testing is now complete, and we are in the process of filling the SC with the two liquids it uses to fire engines and thrusters - Nitrogen Tetroxide and Mono-Methyl Hydrazine. Each of thee takes a full day, and we expect to be complete by next Tuesday. Stay tuned!"

http://www.ilslaunch.com/fill-me-up-buttercup/​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> http://www.ilslaunch.com/fill-me-up-buttercup/[/INDENT]


I am laughing my butt off at the name of the blog entry. !rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Indeed funny.

The idea of even referencing "warmer" in Russia (compared to Virginia this week) in December is equally funny.


----------



## smiddy

T - 22 days-ish, right?


----------



## jrodfoo

smiddy said:


> T - 22 days-ish, right?


That sounds about right


----------



## dwrats_56

smiddy said:


> T - 22 days-ish, right?


As of about 3:30 PM CST, we have about 21 Days 2 Hours and 50 minutes to the scheduled launch time.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> T - 22 days-ish, right?


Remember, post#1 always has the countdown clock!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Remember, post#1 always has the countdown clock!


Is there a "drop dead" date for finalizing any more FCC filings needed?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Is there a "drop dead" date for finalizing any more FCC filings needed?


Any day now ... I'm sure they're fine.

Just waiting on the approval.

Would be another comment filed if there's any more FCC questions to be answered.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Any day now ... I'm sure they're fine.
> 
> Just waiting on the approval.
> 
> Would be another comment filed if there's any more FCC questions to be answered.


Great - 3 weeks out....wow....now it feels like we're actually going to see D12 up there. 

The wait to go "live" will likely be equally toe-tapping. :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Great - 3 weeks out....wow....now it feels like we're actually going to see D12 up there.
> 
> The wait to go "live" will likely be equally toe-tapping. :lol:


What's the old adage... "A watched satellite never launches." Something like that I think. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Remember, post#1 always has the countdown clock!


Yeah, I forgot! Sorry...:sure:


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> As Sir Isaac deduced some 320-odd years ago, F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration).


Among the first things they teach you in engineering school:


F = ma
E = IR
You can't push a rope.

If only I had stuck around for the rest of the lessons.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> Slight technical aside (no doubt due to translation/language issues): the chemical "propellants" of the spacecraft consist of "fuel" and "oxidizer", which combine to burn and produce thrust. The XIPS system uses a supply of xenon gas which is ionized and accelerated electrically to produce very low thrust but at very, very high efficiency. This type of propulsion is not very good for large, quick maneuvers but works remarkably well for long-duration missions which require very small amounts of thrust. It has no true "fuel" or "oxidizer," just mass which is accelerated and produces force as a result. As Sir Isaac deduced some 320-odd years ago, *F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration)*.


Hey, that's what I do for a living. 

Mike


----------



## elaclair

MicroBeta said:


> Hey, that's what I do for a living.
> 
> Mike


Oh, and here I thought you pulled your rods for a living.....


----------



## Sixto

For those interested in the little fireman that was in the D12 photo's:"It seems that it is the Boeing mascot and it has a significance for them that they are not sharing with us."

http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​


----------



## LameLefty

From our friend Anik . . .

"http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8521

Fueling of satellite is continuing. Integrated tests of control system of Briz-M upper stage are performing. Second stage of Proton-M rocket is docking to third stage, assembly of first stage is continuing."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> From our friend Anik . . .
> 
> "http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8521
> 
> Fueling of satellite is continuing. Integrated tests of control system of Briz-M upper stage are performing. Second stage of Proton-M rocket is docking to third stage, assembly of first stage is continuing."


Everything appears NOM EEE NAL - on target....


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Herb!


----------



## Sixto

Wondering ...

If D12 actually does assume most (or all) of the LiL role from D10, is it possible for D10 to then raise the power/signal strength of the 14 national transponders, to enable different encoding to raise the bandwidth of the national transponders.

Started thinking about this based on the new 14 "*TEST" channels in the transponder data of D10.

This is related to our previous 8PSK discussion. 

Just a thought ...


----------



## smiddy

That does seem very possible, theoretically of course. Without know the signal strengths to begin with for comparison it will be hard to determine after all is said and done.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Wondering ...
> 
> If D12 actually does assume most (or all) of the LiL role from D10, is it possible for D10 to then raise the power/signal strength of the 14 national transponders, to enable different encoding to raise the bandwidth of the national transponders.
> 
> Started thinking about this based on the new 14 "*TEST" channels in the transponder data of D10.
> 
> This is related to our previous 8PSK discussion.
> 
> Just a thought ...


Interesting thought, and one I'd wondered myself. However, I lack the RF engineering and encoding background to do more than just toss the idea around in my head. Hopefully someone with a firmer grasp of this aspect will pipe in with an informed comment.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Interesting thought, and one I'd wondered myself. However, I lack the RF engineering and encoding background to do more than just toss the idea around in my head. Hopefully someone with a firmer grasp of this aspect will pipe in with an informed comment.


I doubt anyone that is "informed" will pipe in, since this hinges on the proprietary nature of DirecTV's strategy, I suspect.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> I doubt anyone that is "informed" will pipe in, since this hinges on the proprietary nature of DirecTV's strategy, I suspect.


Depends on the definition of "informed."  Rather than someone who has specific knowledge of Directv's actual processes and plans, I meant someone who has knowledge and/or experience with RF signal processing and data encoding in the digital domain who can explain what increasing broadcast power might potentially be able to do for increasing capacity or rainfade resistance, etc.


----------



## Sixto

Exactly. 

Is it possible if D10 LiL is turned off for power to move to the national transponders. It's always been curious to why they'd reference turning off all of D10 LiL rather then just the problem areas. Maybe its to move power to enable different encoding.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Depends on the definition of "informed."  Rather than someone who has specific knowledge of Directv's actual processes and plans, I meant someone who has knowledge and/or experience with RF signal processing and data encoding in the digital domain who can explain what increasing broadcast power might potentially be able to do for increasing capacity or rainfade resistance, etc.


Well, for the most part digital is either on of off. Increasing the power levels such that rainfade (fade in general) is ruled out will be very helpful. Though those power levels should be well specified in the FCC documents. capacity is based on bandwidth so capacity (from a channel to channel perspective) and power increase are somewhat mutually exclusive. I say that only because when you increase power, you run the risk of interfering with adjacent channels, then that can impact capacity in that since. Capacity of the stream itself is inherent on how many chips and symbols per second and the forward error correction schemes, then each sides ADC/DAC to be able to correctly reproduce the intended signal. This is a simplification of course, but essentially is the ball park of what it means.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I suspect DIRECTV is already near the limits of power density reaching the earth, so overcoming an encoding change via power increases is probably not permitted.

After further research, the FCC and DIRECTV might come to an accord, but with Spectrum 5 breathing down people's FCC filings, I wouldn't count on it.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> I suspect DIRECTV is already near the limits of power density reaching the earth, so overcoming an encoding change via power increases is probably not permitted.
> 
> After further research, the FCC and DIRECTV might come to an accord, but with Spectrum 5 breathing down people's FCC filings, I wouldn't count on it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I may be wrong here, but assuming what SixTo says is correct, that D10 isn't transmitting upto the intended power levels for the intended purposes, then shifting the duty for each satellite may be doable, so long, as you say, they stay within the original power densities at those specific frequencies. Once you've been given spectrum and power, shifting it around is easier to do. I don't beleive SixTo was advocating increased power in total, different from what has been given to DirecTV, but to realign power from D10 original intended use, to D12's backup use (not as the ground spare mind you. ). In any case, it will be interesting to see how it unfolds...I can't wait, as they say!


----------



## Sixto

What I meant ...

There's been some recent activity that may indicate some new future channels on D10. Maybe. Maybe not. Total speculation at this point. The number of 14 new *TEST channels is a coincidence, being that there are currently 14 national transponders.

There's also been discussion in the past that DirecTV wasn't using 8PSK because of maybe a concern about the signal levels.

There's also been documentation that D12 may totally replace all of D10 LiL. Maybe.

Which makes me think, maybe, this is all related.

Was just a thought.


----------



## P Smith

_"There's also been discussion in the past that DirecTV wasn't using 8PSK because of maybe a concern about the signal levels."_
Looks like I missed it, but DTV does using 8PSK (only) with different FEC (I would say a lot of different values) on D10,D11,SW-1 and SW-2.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> _"There's also been discussion in the past that DirecTV wasn't using 8PSK because of maybe a concern about the signal levels."_
> Looks like I missed it, but DTV does using 8PSK (only) with different FEC (I would say a lot of different values) on D10,D11,SW-1 and SW-2.


I think the information is that 8PSK is being used for locals but not nationals (for whatever reason). Having no access to the data, I have no idea personally one way or another.


----------



## Sixto

Yep (both P and Lefty), the discussion was around why DirecTV wasn't using values like some other providers (and getting more bandwidth from the transponders). The answer seemed that they needed to be more conservative, but it wasn't clear if higher signal strength was the issue or even possible. Which led to the thoughts today based on the coincidence of 14 *TEST channels on D10, which may wind up being nothing or not realted at all. Good stuff to fill the time.


----------



## paragon

Hopefully, if they do add another channel to each of the transponders it is through a move to 8PSK as opposed to a reduction in bit rate.

I suspect 8PSK is used only on locals because they can be sent at a higher earth-observed power due to a smaller covered area. It does seem in the realm of possibility that if D10 stops transmitting spotbeams they could use that saved power to up the power level on on the national beams and switch to 8PSK to allow another channel on each transponder. This all assumes they aren't already at the regulatory power maximums.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto, minor error. D12 is actually launching at 7:22 PM EST on the 28th here in the US. It'll be 6:22 in the morning on the 29th there.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control


----------



## LameLefty

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Sixto, minor error. D12 is actually launching at 7:22 PM EST on the 28th here in the US. It'll be 6:22 in the morning on the 29th there.
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control


How is that different than what Sixto has had on the first post since 12/2?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

LameLefty said:


> How is that different than what Sixto has had on the first post since 12/2?


I'm saying he should change the name of this thread to launch date 12/28 cuz that's when it'll happen in the US. This is an American site isn't it? My watch is set to EST anyway.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm saying he should change the name of this thread to launch date 12/28 cuz that's when it'll happen in the US. This is an American site isn't it? My watch is set to EST anyway.


The Launch date is 12/29...local time at the launch site.

I can see perhaps adding something like (12/28 7:22 PM EST U.S)


----------



## hancox

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm saying he should change the name of this thread to launch date 12/28 cuz that's when it'll happen in the US. This is an American site isn't it? My watch is set to EST anyway.


It is actually changed, if you open the thread. VBulletin sucks at actually updating the thread title...


----------



## Sixto

Yep, only a mod can change the title. I had changed the first post the day the date was announced.

Been meaning to PM Tom to change the title.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Yep, only a mod can change the title. I had changed the first post the day the date was announced.
> 
> Been meaning to PM Tom to change the title.


I bet once he sees this he will be all over it, unless one of the other good gentlemen take care of it first.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I have changed the title for you. In the future, just PM a moderator or report the post.


----------



## Sixto

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have changed the title for you. In the future, just PM a moderator or report the post.


Thank you!


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Yep (both P and Lefty), the discussion was around why DirecTV wasn't using values like some other providers (and getting more bandwidth from the transponders). The answer seemed that they needed to be more conservative, but it wasn't clear if higher signal strength was the issue or even possible. Which led to the thoughts today based on the coincidence of 14 *TEST channels on D10, which may wind up being nothing or not realted at all. Good stuff to fill the time.


I recall all [DSS-3] tpns on D-xx/SW-x are 8PSK. At least it was a few months ago.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> I recall all [DSS-3] tpns on D-xx/SW-x are 8PSK. At least it was a few months ago.


Seemed like the consensus was that Dish had much higher bandwidth per transponder and the discussion was to understand why.

Satellite technology? encoding method? FEC? ...

And then if it is related to signal strength, whether moving off LiL from D10 could provide the D10 national transponders the ability to raise the level, assuming that it's still within FCC specs.


----------



## P Smith

Dang, I missed that time discussion - I could help overturn that misconception (consensus based on missed knowledge ).

Dish, so far, could do SR=21500 and FEC=2/3 for regular (not high powered ) 8PSK tpns.
DTV using much higher SR (30000 ?) and variable FEC.


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Dang, I missed that time discussion - I could help overturn that misconception (consensus based on missed knowledge ).
> 
> Dish, so far, could do SR=21500 and FEC=2/3 for regular (not high powered ) 8PSK tpns.
> DTV using much higher SR (30000 ?) and variable FEC.


How many symbols per bit?


----------



## HoTat2

smiddy said:


> How many symbols per bit?


"Bits per symbol" actually


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> "Bits per symbol" actually


Yep, I must have been tired when I wrote that, at least you know what I mean...:lol:


----------



## cdhinch

Sixto said:


> Seemed like the consensus was that Dish had much higher bandwidth per transponder and the discussion was to understand why.
> 
> Satellite technology? encoding method? FEC? ...
> 
> And then if it is related to signal strength, whether moving off LiL from D10 could provide the D10 national transponders the ability to raise the level, assuming that it's still within FCC specs.


Speaking as a former Dish customer, I can tell you that they run 8 HD channels per transponder. They can get that because of the amount of compression that they use. The trade-off is that the picture quality is reduced.


----------



## Sixto

This is a snippet from one of the posts (from a while ago) that prompted the thoughts from earlier today:


evan_s said:


> ...
> 
> Personally my current guess is that it will go at 103 with D10 running all in ka lo/ka b band. They will then end up running 10 conus tps off each of the sats leaving 4 tps for the spots. Because they are powering fewer tps they will switch from the QPSK they are currently using to 8PSK allowing them to fit 7 channels per tp for a total of 140 channels on the 20 tps. Since they are running fewer conus tps they will also be able to increase the power to them to help compensate for the 8PSK being more susceptible to noise and interference. They currently use 8psk on the spots and it generally allows 50% more usable bandwidth than QPSK.
> 
> ...


And another:


DarinC said:


> Because they aren't using 8PSK on their conus transponders. 8PSK yields 50% more gross usable bandwidth than QPSK (though it generally requires more error correction, cutting in to that advantage somewhat). Perhaps they aren't using 8PSK because the Ka satellites aren't performing as expected (have enough power), or perhaps they aren't using it because they don't need to. Their original channel capacity numbers appeared to be based on 8PSK. If it's a power issue, they may need to launch more satellites to share the load (which would explain how D12 could increase capacity even though it won't be using "new" spectrum). How it all plays out is yet to be seen. But they have plenty of raw spectrum, and technology to use it more efficiently. I just don't think they feel the need to play all their cards.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> How many symbols per bit?


Well, it's not like you asked, but seen 2/5, 1/2, 2/3 and 8/9, 9/10.


----------



## Bob Coxner

Let's hope this Russian launch goes off better than their missile test near Norway that had the whole world excited about UFOs.


----------



## bjlc

because I don't want them hitting Santa Claus during the launch.. it would ruin my Christmas..


----------



## smiddy

bjlc said:


> because I don't want them hitting Santa Claus during the launch.. it would ruin my Christmas..


!rolling Santa is safe this year.  I'll be tracking him on NORAD's site.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Well, it's not like you asked, but seen 2/5, 1/2, 2/3 and 8/9, 9/10.


No those are actually the range of possible Viterbi FEC code rates. The answer for Smiddy's question earlier would be 2 bits per symbol (or "baud") for QPSK and 3 bits per symbol for 8-PSK.

Depending on the choice of selected code rates referred to above, the numbers of actual data bits to redundant error corrections bits sent during each symbol interval will vary of course.


----------



## Sixto

Interesting ... no replies yet to the previous post...

So we think there's some truth to this ... or not?:


evan_s said:


> ... Because they are powering fewer tps they will switch from the QPSK they are currently using to 8PSK allowing them to fit 7 channels per tp for a total of 140 channels on the 20 tps. Since they are running fewer conus tps they will also be able to increase the power to them to help compensate for the 8PSK being more susceptible to noise and interference. They currently use 8psk on the spots and it generally allows 50% more usable bandwidth than QPSK ...





DarinC said:


> Because they aren't using 8PSK on their conus transponders. 8PSK yields 50% more gross usable bandwidth than QPSK (though it generally requires more error correction, cutting in to that advantage somewhat). Perhaps they aren't using 8PSK because the Ka satellites aren't performing as expected (have enough power), or perhaps they aren't using it because they don't need to. Their original channel capacity numbers appeared to be based on 8PSK. If it's a power issue, they may need to launch more satellites to share the load (which would explain how D12 could increase capacity even though it won't be using "new" spectrum). How it all plays out is yet to be seen. But they have plenty of raw spectrum, and technology to use it more efficiently. I just don't think they feel the need to play all their cards.


----------



## Sixto

Tidbit relative to D12 today (12/11/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=787739​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Tidbit relative to D12 today (12/11/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=787739​


Looks like all the ducks are lining up in a neat row for the launch. 

Hard to believe we're now only a bit over 2 weeks away.


----------



## rrrick8

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Looks like all the ducks are lining up in a neat row for the launch.
> 
> Hard to believe we're now only a bit over 2 weeks away.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> No those are actually the range of possible Viterbi FEC code rates. ...


I know what that numbers means and since his question been tied to my post where I didn't provide FECs what DTV using on Ka tpn, I did answer that way.


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> No those are actually the range of possible Viterbi FEC code rates. The answer for Smiddy's question earlier would be 2 bits per symbol (or "baud") for QPSK and 3 bits per symbol for 8-PSK.
> 
> Depending on the choice of selected code rates referred to above, the numbers of actual data bits to redundant error corrections bits sent during each symbol interval will vary of course.


How many chips per symbol then? And is there only two chips or more? I guess I need to read up on these modulation schemes, I've been doing non-commercial that is hybrid and highly redundant, spread spectrum work. If I had equipment at home I'd monitor this stuff.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> How many *chips *per symbol then? And is there only two *chips *or more? I guess I need to read up on these modulation schemes, I've been doing non-commercial that is hybrid and highly redundant, spread spectrum work. If I had equipment at home I'd monitor this stuff.


Could you please add your definition of that word here ?


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Could you please add your definition of that word here ?


+1 here. The last time I heard the term "chip rate" was dealing with spread spectrum technology, maybe Smiddy is confusing the two since as he stated, he's been working with a lot of SS stuff recently.

DirecTV uses a statistical time division multiple access system (TDMA) for it's RF data transport streams. Not spread spectrum.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Interesting ... no replies yet to the previous post...
> 
> So we think there's some truth to this ... or not?:


Wish I knew, but I guess it's just one of those areas where there just isn't enough detailed technical information available about the satellite's capabilities to know for sure. I've been trying to determine for a long time how Hawaii's four active TWTAs fit into the mix in addition to the 28 active ones for the CONUS-Alaska beam transponders.

But, no one seems to know for the same reason I suppose ... :shrug:

To recount, if all the spotbeam transponders are turned off is the resultant power savings sufficient to raise the CONUS beams tp. power levels by enough to allow for 8-PSK modulation? Would the higher power levels even be allowed legally? :shrug:


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Wish I knew, but I guess it's just one of those areas where there just isn't enough detailed technical information available about the satellite's capabilities to know for sure. I've been trying to determine for a long time how Hawaii's four active TWTAs fit into the mix in addition to the 28 active ones for the CONUS-Alaska beam transponders.
> 
> But, no one seems to know for the same reason I suppose ... :shrug:
> 
> To recount, if all the spotbeam transponders are turned off is the resultant power savings sufficient to raise the CONUS beams tp. power levels by enough to allow for 8-PSK modulation? Would the higher power levels even be allowed legally? :shrug:


Been posts this week (PSmith) that said CONUS is already 8PSK, but previous posts (evan_s, DarinC) said not. Would be nice to confirm either way. Or maybe it wasn't, but now is.


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Could you please add your definition of that word here ?





HoTat2 said:


> +1 here. The last time I heard the term "chip rate" was dealing with spread spectrum technology, maybe Smiddy is confusing the two since as he stated, he's been working with a lot of SS stuff recently.
> 
> DirecTV uses a statistical time division multiple access system (TDMA) for it's RF data transport streams. Not spread spectrum.


CDMA, chips rates are used, yes. But I've doing hybrid SS so they are non-typical. I will look up QPSK and 8PSK this evening. Maybe that will get me in the ball park.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Been posts this week (PSmith) that said CONUS is already 8PSK, but previous posts (evan_s, DarinC) said not. Would be nice to confirm either way. Or maybe it wasn't, but now is.


_"Because they aren't using 8PSK on their conus transponders."_
May be he mentioned core sat at 101W ?

BTW, Rod contributed to Lyngsat that info about 8PSK on Ka sats also. He used original DTV sat tuner for that. My info came from analyzing APG data, that's why we got different FEC values; my suggestion - because DTV adapting the values dynamically according seasons.


----------



## paragon

Here's a chart from Wikipedia of bit error rates for QPSK (blue) versus 8PSK (green).

For example, if QPSK is transmitted at 12dB, you would need to transmit 8PSK at a little bit higher than 15dB (and/or use more FEC) to get a similar bit error rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileSK_BER_curves.svg


----------



## smiddy

I have given the modulation schemes a look and here's a good reference for those who wish to delve into it further: http://www.complextoreal.com/chapters/mod1.pdf This is not for folks who're not strong in math and haven't done any signal analysis. Based on the BER that paragon posted from Wikipedia that needing 3 dB (twice the power BTW) for 8-PSK, then if the original signals were granted by the FCC for QPSK, then it is possible that due to the weaker than needed signal is why problems have arose for some folks. So, did DirecTV ask for 3 dB more power to test DirecTV - 10 (sorry, I haven't read the test request; I will, I'm just a little overwhelmed at the moment with other stuff.  )?


----------



## doctor j

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19646.msg516623#msg516623

Anik Update on D-12:

DirecTV 12 was installed on dispenser in last weekend, today satellite was docked with Briz-M upper stage.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

Great news. 

Still waiting on FCC authorizations, but with 13-1/2 days until launch, there's still plenty of time. Sixto or I will post as soon as something relevant is filed.


----------



## Sixto

D12 Blog Update (12/11/2009):http://www.ilslaunch.com/the-end-of-the-beginning/

"Well, the SC is fueled, tested, verified, closed out and ready to go - a great job by the entire Boeing team. We start joint operations on Sunday, which means that we start assembling all the various parts of the integrated launch vehicle. The first part of this is to put the SC onto the Adapter and mechanically secure it using the KhSC-built Separation System. This is a long day, as you can image so we took some time out to have a BBQ sponsored by ILS and Boeing (Boeing provided the tri-tip and the cooking expertise, which was fantastic). The weather has turned colder, but we are avoiding any snow like that which has been plaguing much of the US recently.

Today we also so the roll-out of the Proton with the Russian GLONASS satellites on board. Launch is on the 14th, and I for one am excited because even though I have launched many satellites on Proton, I have yet to watch one actually launch since I am usually working at that time."​


----------



## Mike Bertelson

It's almost time for a Happy Dance. 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

New news with approval ... updating ....

D12 (12/15/2009): "Last Action: Grant of Authority"Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Approval Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788267​
RB-2A (12/15/2009): "Last Action: Granted in Part/ Deferred in Part"Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Approval Details:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788263

Ciel Conflict Details: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788265​
The STA for testing has not yet been approved, but should be soon, with possibly some restrictions on RB-2A.


----------



## Tom Robertson

MicroBeta said:


> It's almost time for a Happy Dance.
> 
> Mike





Sixto said:


> New news with approval ... will update in minutes ....


I think that time has come


----------



## jefbal99

ok, its been 5 mins, i'm on pins and needles


----------



## Sixto

Will keep updating post#1087. changing by the minute.

FCC is updating the database real-time right now.


----------



## cforrest

I see 5 spotbeams denied by the FCC for D12: 

A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A4B9 & A4BD

All other spotbeams were approved for D12 to use on the KA-band.

Wonder what regions those spotbeams are aimed at, if anyone knows please post!


----------



## radiomandc

cforrest said:


> I see 5 spotbeams denied by the FCC for D12:
> 
> A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A4B9 & A4BD
> 
> All other spotbeams were approved for D12 to use on the KA-band.
> 
> Wonder what regions those spotbeams are aimed at, if anyone knows please post!


Per the website link http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435 they are directed at SW Texas, Mexico and Alaska.


----------



## RAD

cforrest said:


> I see 5 spotbeams denied by the FCC for D12:
> 
> A1B8, A2B3, A2B7, A4B9 & A4BD
> 
> All other spotbeams were approved for D12 to use on the KA-band.
> 
> Wonder what regions those spotbeams are aimed at, if anyone knows please post!


The foot note says that those 5 beams are optimized for another orbital location and that DirecTV is not seeking authority to operate those at 103.


----------



## LameLefty

From an engineering perspective, it's interesting that the FCC takes issue with Directv's and Boeing's plans for end-of-life with regard to the helium and xenon tanks, yet several years ago the same agency did not take issue with the design and plans for D10 and 11, which use the very same spacecraft bus.


----------



## RAD

D12 is totally replacing SW1 and D10? On page 1 under item #2 it says:

_DIRECTV 12 (Call Sign S2797) must begin providing service at the 102.765 WL orbital location in the Ka-band frequencies before the satellites it is replacing, DIRECTV 10 and SPACEWAY 1, discontinue service at that location._

I thought D12 was an addition to D10's capacity or did I miss something?


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> D12 is totally replacing SW1 and D10? On page 1 under item #2 it says:
> 
> _DIRECTV 12 (Call Sign S2797) must begin providing service at the 102.765 WL orbital location in the Ka-band frequencies before the satellites it is replacing, DIRECTV 10 and SPACEWAY 1, discontinue service at that location._
> 
> I thought D12 was an addition to D10's capacity or did I miss something?


There have been references to D12 replaceing LiL from D10. Not clear if part or all (yet).

Same with D12 use of SW1 Ka-Hi frequencies for national channels. We have seen the SW1 LiL go to 1 channel.


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> There have been references to D12 replaceing LiL from D10. Not clear if part or all (yet).


Yea, I heard that along with clearing off SW1, just the wording makes it sound like it's a complete replacement. Will be interesting to see what's going to happen.


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Yea, I heard that along with clearing off SW1, just the wording makes it sound like it's a complete replacement. Will be interesting to see what's going to happen.


Some of us exchanging PMs in the past few weeks think the SWs may be repurposed for Latin America (don't know if Directv has regulatory approval for it, but think what a few million more HD locals subs in Mexico City or other major Central/S. American metro areas could do for the bottom line). Alternately, they could use their rapidly-hopping spot beams and data handling capability for advanced services we have no knowledge of yet.


----------



## Movieman

Sixto said:


> There have been references to D12 replaceing LiL from D10. Not clear if part or all (yet).
> 
> Same with D12 use of SW1 Ka-Hi frequencies for national channels. We have seen the SW1 LiL go to 1 channel.


Can they do this and still keep to the additional HD commitment?


----------



## Sixto

Movieman said:


> Can they do this and still keep to the additional HD commitment?


National HD, sure. Been the plan. Were no surprises today, the Ciel issue caused deferral was somewhat expected.


----------



## Sixto

To summarize today ...

We have a cool sat in the final stages of prep, we have the FCC officially approving the launch, and the Ciel issue while it may affect the future BSS didn't affect the launch.

We're all set ... no hurdles now ... hopefully no new ones arise ... fingers crossed ... T minus 13!


----------



## jrodfoo

Whohoooo! Thanks for all the info!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Movieman said:


> Can they do this and still keep to the additional HD commitment?





Sixto said:


> National HD, sure. Been the plan. Were no surprises today, the Ciel issue caused deferral was somewhat expected.


I don't think they ever made an additional HD commitment other than saying they'd gain additional capacity?

Personally, I'd be thrilled to get even a little hint as to their HD-LIL plans for next year...

~Alan


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan Gordon said:


> I don't think they ever made an additional HD commitment other than saying they'd gain additional capacity?
> 
> Personally, I'd be thrilled to get even a little hint as to their HD-LIL plans for next year...
> 
> ~Alan


Little hint: more HD-LILs 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Alan Gordon said:


> I don't think they ever made an additional HD commitment other than saying they'd gain additional capacity?


Check out Satelliteracer's comments in the "Directv may not use D12's capacity" thread below.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> Little hint: more HD-LILs


Yeah, I know we have more coming... some are even still waiting on those additional markets that Satelliteracer hinted at earlier this year that ended up getting delayed til 2010 after the earlier announced markets got delayed to late 2009.

I'm still waiting for something a little more detailed... particularly in light of today's information. Hopefully, a successful launch in







will result in some more announcements...

~Alan


----------



## RobertE

Alan Gordon said:


> I don't think they ever made an additional HD commitment other than saying they'd gain additional capacity?
> 
> Personally, I'd be thrilled to get even a little hint as to their HD-LIL plans for next year...
> 
> ~Alan


For a slightly larger hint, you can take a look at the spot beam maps for D12 here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=163540


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> Check out Satelliteracer's comments in the "Directv may not use D12's capacity" thread below.


I was arguing semantics.



Movieman said:


> Can they do this and still keep to the additional HD commitment?


Technically, DirecTV never made any additional HD commitments. They simply said they were increasing their capacity. There is several ways to do this even without D12... though D12 is certainly the preferable option.

Though I'm aware that D12 won't be able to carry every HD channel out there, I feel pretty good about my most-wanted (national) channels being added, so I haven't bothered to even read that thread, so I appreciate you giving me the heads-up on Satelliteracer's comments. 

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

RobertE said:


> For a slightly larger hint, you can take a look at the spot beam maps for D12 here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=163540


I've checked them out before. A great resource, no doubt, but until we know exactly how many of those spots will be used up by shifting locals from D10, etc., it's kind of hard (at least for me) to get any kind of real hints of what's planned in my area.

~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

Alan Gordon said:


> I've checked them out before. A great resource, no doubt, but until we know exactly how many of those spots will be used up by shifting locals from D10, etc., it's kind of hard (at least for me) to get any kind of real hints of what's planned in my area.
> 
> ~Alan


I'm hoping the Detroit Spot is used for Lansing DMA locals. it covers all the counties in the DMA pretty well. DirecTV, puhleese?


----------



## LameLefty

Thanks to Anik . . . the fairing has been installed on the satellite. 










The link is in Russian, but there's another pic there of the open halves of the fairing during the installation process:

http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=1425


----------



## Alan Gordon

jefbal99 said:


> I'm hoping the Detroit Spot is used for Lansing DMA locals. it covers all the counties in the DMA pretty well. DirecTV, puhleese?


Just cross your fingers that it's not going to be used for Detroit!

*Note:* Detroit HD-LIL is on D10 at 103°.

~Alan


----------



## Indiana627

4 more photos of D12 being prepped for launch. I love the guy's pose in the first one!

http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery


----------



## Go Beavs

The size of that satellite is impressive! I didn't realize how big that thing is until I saw it in relation to those people standing next to it.


----------



## HoTat2

Indiana627 said:


> 4 more photos of D12 being prepped for launch. I love the guy's pose in the first one!
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery


I take it that conical section or bell shaped part being fit on the bottom of the satellite in the joint-ops photos is the payload adapter?

And those two large 2.8 m Gregorian dishes on the top of D12 for the CONUS beams are indeed 
imposing even when folded in for stowage that way.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> I take it that conical section or bell shaped part being fit on the bottom of the satellite in the joint-ops photos is the payload adapter?


Yep. That, and the encapsulating faring, should be mounted to the Briz-M upper stage, which in turn is mounted on the three-stage Proton-M itself. The fairing is jettisoned during third-stage flight a little less than 6 minutes after liftoff, when dynamic pressure drops low enough so that the tiny bits of atmosphere at that altitude and speed won't cause damage to the payload.


----------



## MrDad0330

Do we have any details of "D" televising the launch live or what channel? Nice after Christmas show to watch..i hope


----------



## doctor j

Go Beavs said:


> The size of that satellite is impressive! I didn't realize how big that thing is until I saw it in relation to those people standing next to it.


The general comparison is a BUS.
Image a school bus of more impressive a 40 ft Provost.
That's the reference frame!!

Doctor j


----------



## lwilli201

MrDad0330 said:


> Do we have any details of "D" televising the launch live or what channel? Nice after Christmas show to watch..i hope


In the past it was shown in the 570's. Nothing shown yet. I believe what Directv shows is the ILS internet feed which will also be available on the ILS website.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Thanks for link to the pictures. I can't wait to see it take off.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The photos are great - thanks for sharing the links.

Great to see that we're still looking at an on-time launch on 12/28.


----------



## P Smith

English pages : http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=464?lang=en

EDIT. They're changing pages, man. I did c&p when it was on English !


----------



## xylo

P Smith said:


> English pages :


Try adding a &lang=en to that. http:// www .khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=464&lang=en


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

xylo said:


> Try adding a &lang=en to that. http:// www .khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=464&lang=en


theres a russian to english link on the top right corner


----------



## smiddy

Hey, I can smell it, it's getting closer!


----------



## ATARI

smiddy said:


> Hey, I can smell it, it's getting closer!


It smells like more HD 

(which may be even better than new car smell)


----------



## zudy

It look's great, I can't wait. I hope it is alot more HD like they said.


----------



## oldfantom

I know it is weird, but in the hours before a test or a race, I always get really calm. There is a feeling at some point, that I have done what I have done and nothing is going to change at this point. After following this thread for over a year and all the more HD threads, I am starting to get that calm here. Starting tomorrow, we can even pull in the 10 day weather forecasts for the region.


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> I know it is weird, but in the hours before a test or a race, I always get really calm. There is a feeling at some point, that I have done what I have done and nothing is going to change at this point. After following this thread for over a year and all the more HD threads, I am starting to get that calm here. Starting tomorrow, we can even pull in the 10 day weather forecasts for the region.


Yep, we're in the home stretch.

Been a long road ... from the original D12 "ground spare" ... to the D12 announcement in early 2008 ... to months of our speculation on how it would fit into the frequency stack plan ... to the debates on slot location and launch location, and 2009 vs 2010 ... to now T minus 11!


----------



## Tom_S

I'm so excited, the last launch was fun to watch I can't wait for this one. It's just a bummer that there will still be a wait of a few months. But at least it will be up there!


----------



## Tom Robertson

oldfantom said:


> I know it is weird, but in the hours before a test or a race, I always get really calm. There is a feeling at some point, that I have done what I have done and nothing is going to change at this point. After following this thread for over a year and all the more HD threads, I am starting to get that calm here. Starting tomorrow, we can even pull in the 10 day weather forecasts for the region.


Perhaps not common, it is not weird at all. If you've done everything you can do: testing, prepared, rehearsed, etc. you might was well be calm. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Having read back through the later parts of the thread, as well as some of the docs attached...I get the impresion that D12 itself may not necessarily be the specific unit providing all the added capacity itself (some yes), but the reconfiguration of all the sats in combination will open up the bandwidth for both more LIL, new capabilities, and more National HD channels.

In any case....hard to believe we're only 11 days out from the launch and maybe 120 or so days from seeing some new content.

Fly D12 fly....


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Having read back through the later parts of the thread, as well as some of the docs attached...I get the impresion that D12 itself may not necessarily be the specific unit providing all the added capacity itself (some yes), but the reconfiguration of all the sats in combination will open up the bandwidth for both more LIL, new capabilities, and more National HD channels.


Yeah, I've come to that conclusion over the course of the last month or so myself... and I even understand enough to have an idea of how they are going to accomplish that. Very clever thinking on the part of DirecTV.

However, I'm still stumped on the LIL bandwidth, but as long as they understand it, that's the important thing! 

~Alan


----------



## JoeTheDragon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Having read back through the later parts of the thread, as well as some of the docs attached...I get the impresion that D12 itself may not necessarily be the specific unit providing all the added capacity itself (some yes), but the reconfiguration of all the sats in combination will open up the bandwidth for both more LIL, new capabilities, and more National HD channels.
> 
> In any case....hard to believe we're only 11 days out from the launch and maybe 120 or so days from seeing some new content.
> 
> Fly D12 fly....


I hope we get the rest of the Chicago Local's in HD + Me too and CLTV / CLTV HD


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom_S said:


> I'm so excited, the last launch was fun to watch I can't wait for this one. It's just a bummer that there will still be a wait of a few months. But at least it will be up there!


Same here. I'm hoping once its up safe and they have control of it with no problems that they'll give us a few new national HD channels once NFLST is over.


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Having read back through the later parts of the thread, as well as some of the docs attached...I get the impresion that D12 itself may not necessarily be the specific unit providing all the added capacity itself (some yes), but the reconfiguration of all the sats in combination will open up the bandwidth for both more LIL, new capabilities, and more National HD channels.
> 
> In any case....hard to believe we're only 11 days out from the launch and maybe 120 or so days from seeing some new content.
> 
> Fly D12 fly....


In one sense true perhaps, however I find it difficult to see how those 16 glorious ka-hi band CONUS transponders aboard D12 can be viewed as contributing toward only "some" of the additional capacity, and not comprise the majority of it.

I have to believe its the other way around with D12 responsible for the majority of the capacity increase and any freeing of spectrum by reshuffling channels on the current satellites as the minority contributions.


----------



## joshjr

JoeTheDragon said:


> I hope we get the rest of the Chicago Local's in HD + Me too and CLTV / CLTV HD


I was thinking getting locals period would be nice.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

TheRatPatrol said:


> Same here. I'm hoping once its up safe and they have control of it with no problems that they'll give us a few new national HD channels once NFLST is over.


They likely will need some of that room for the olympics


----------



## Alan Gordon

HoTat2 said:


> In one sense true perhaps, however I find it difficult to see how those 16 glorious ka-hi band CONUS transponders aboard D12 can be viewed as contributing toward only "some" of the additional capacity, and not comprise the majority of it.
> 
> I have to believe its the other way around with D12 responsible for the majority of the capacity increase and any freeing of spectrum by reshuffling channels on the current satellites as the minority contributions.


As I understand it (and what I believe hdtvfan0001 was referring to) is the fact that D12 won't be adding capacity in the same sense as D10 & D11 did. It appears that D12 will actually be used in conjunction with shuffling things around combined with more efficient use of the spectrum.

~Alan<~~~~~~~Who could be wrong, but that's what I got from that...


----------



## rrrick8

We're into the "12 Days of D12mas" now.


----------



## RobertE

Just tossing this out there. While D12 will add a good amount a direct capacity, it is also going to add some backup capacity as well.

Right now, if D10 or 11 were to have a significant failure, the only real options are to push those channels onto the remaining sat or shut them off.

You add D12 to the mix, if one were to fail, you now have 2 sats to push those channels off to.

So, I think they could add some channels to both D10 & 11 once 12 is safely in orbit.


----------



## Sixto

D12 is the 3rd sat. 50% more then 2 sats. New nationals are going on D12.

Yes, there may be some other stuff going on, but D12 is the key for new nationals. It will be using 60% of the Ka Hi stack from SW1.

Edit: And yes, they may temporarily put some new nationals on D11 after 1/3/2010, but they technically need that bandwidth back by the start of the 2010 NFL season, so in effect would either later move the channels to D12 or just put NFL on D12. We've seen no indication of any national HD channel on any sat other then D10/D11/D12.


----------



## Shades228

RobertE said:


> Just tossing this out there. While D12 will add a good amount a direct capacity, it is also going to add some backup capacity as well.
> 
> Right now, if D10 or 11 were to have a significant failure, the only real options are to push those channels onto the remaining sat or shut them off.
> 
> You add D12 to the mix, if one were to fail, you now have 2 sats to push those channels off to.
> 
> So, I think they could add some channels to both D10 & 11 once 12 is safely in orbit.


I believe that is what most are speculating when it comes to the channels announced for 1Q10. The timelines proposed by Sixto and Lamelefty have already shown that it will be a very close date to the end of 1Q before it's in operational GSO.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> D12 is the 3rd sat. 50% more then 2 sats. New nationals are going on D12.
> 
> Yes, there may be some other stuff going on, but D12 is the key for new nationals. It will be using 60% of the Ka Hi stack from SW1.
> 
> Edit: And yes, they may temporarily put some new nationals on D11 after 1/3/2010, but they technically need that bandwidth back by the start of the 2010 NFL season, so in effect would either later move the channels to D12 or just put NFL on D12. We've seen no indication of any national HD channel on any sat other then D10/D11/D12.


Well, with the tidbits of information satracer gives us on occasion it DirecTV - 12 brings huge promise for DirecTV customers and I for one will be jumping for joy once this puppy shows us its full glory, let me tell ya!


----------



## alnielsen

Is there any word on if they will televise the launch like they did with Sea Launch?


----------



## Sixto

alnielsen said:


> Is there any word on if they will televise the launch like they did with Sea Launch?


It may be, previous launches have been. Worst case, ILS will probably have the launch online, just like W7 recently.


----------



## JLucPicard

It's great to see that Anik has been contributing, but I can't help but wonder....

Have they given DirecTV12 access to a laptop, yet, so he can join us here???


----------



## LameLefty

Some supplemental RB-2A filings in the last two days . . .

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788727

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=788368

As Sixto says, "Developing . . ." (Meaning, I haven't read these yet! )

EDITED TO ADD: These letters are to provide the FCC with more technical RF information with regard to the request for Special Temporary Authority to test the BSS payload (RB-2A) prior to moving the satellite to its final slot. There is detailed power flux density and analysis of any potential interference issues with other satellites and ground systems. RF nerds, rejoice! :lol:


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Some supplemental RB-2A filings in the last two days . . .:


The official approval should also show in the Friday summary. I'll be out so not checking. STA may be close.


----------



## slimoli

Is there any chance there will be no need for the extra dish (galaxy 95) after D12 is up and running ? Do you thin Directv will move the internationals to 110/119 soon ? Thanks.


----------



## RAD

slimoli said:


> Is there any chance there will be no need for the extra dish (galaxy 95) after D12 is up and running ? Do you thin Directv will move the internationals to 110/119 soon ? Thanks.


I haven't seen anything that says they will, but IMHO that would be the smart thing to do. Why pay to lease transponder space if they don't need to and have the extra effort of installing two dishes? The question is do they have enough bandwidth to move all those channels there? Maybe if they replaced all the customers using those channels to MPEG4 receivers they could squeeze them all in.


----------



## Sixto

As referenced earlier, the Friday FCC summary:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-2607A1.pdf​


----------



## sbelmont

joshjr said:


> I was thinking getting locals period would be nice.


Amen to that.


----------



## FHSPSU67

JLucPicard said:


> It's great to see that Anik has been contributing, but I can't help but wonder....
> 
> Have they given DirecTV12 access to a laptop, yet, so he can join us here???


I'm also waiting for DirecTV12 and EaglePC.


----------



## RAD

Story on a Canadian web site about the Ciel/DirecTV dispute over who has rights to the frequencies, http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Battling+over+bandwidth/2360836/story.html


----------



## Smthkd

Seems like Ciel and Dish are up to no good and trying to cause problems with D* D12 slot. However, D* has a point, how can they justify approval over Canada and then say they have rights for US, Mexico, Central & South America and the Carribean! I thought they had to file for seperate authorizations for each country they plained to service and not speculate that approval for one slot automatically gave them access to all!?


----------



## HoTat2

RAD said:


> Story on a Canadian web site about the Ciel/DirecTV dispute over who has rights to the frequencies, http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/Battling+over+bandwidth/2360836/story.html


Humm...

The article is rather general and not really accurate in reporting the nature of the dispute. Since it is not competition for an optimal satellite slot (in this case 103 nom. here) where the bone of contention lies, but the use of the newly authorized 17/24 GHz BSS band by two nations from the same GSO position which is.

It is also hard to believe that Ciel honestly thinks that simply because they were the first to be granted a BSS license by the ITU for the 103 slot this entitles them to indiscriminately rain radiation and in turn be guaranteed interference protection for their signal throughout the entire ITU region 3 from Canada to the Caribbean.

On the other hand I think Ciel obviously realizes though while totally unrealistic, it really needs such freedom especially for the northern regions of the U.S. in order to make BSS from 103 a viable nationwide service throughout Canada.

Otherwise if their signal is limited only to Canadian territory the best it could offer would be a patchy system of carefully focused spotbeams exclusively directed at different regions of Canada.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

So will this lawsuit affect the launch date of D12, or is December 28 set in stone?


----------



## Smthkd

No the launch will continue as plan! Ciel is disputing the use of the RB-2A parts from D12 and the freqencies it would use..


----------



## HoTat2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So will this lawsuit affect the launch date of D12, or is December 28 set in stone?


No, it won't affect the scheduled launch date, but the specific FCC authorization for DirecTV to operate the BSS RB-2A system has been deferred for now.


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> No the launch will continue as plan! Ciel is disputing the use of the RB-2A parts from D12 and the freqencies it would use..


Barring technical problems with the launcher, the satellite itself or ground support equipment, the current date is as firm as it gets in the space launch business.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Ok good. There's been enough delays already. Lets get this bird in the sky!


----------



## evan_s

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Ok good. There's been enough delays already. Lets get this bird in the sky!


The RB-2A, aka the bss package, on D12 is only a very small part of it and it is unclear at this point what it will even be used for. The national Tps and most of the spots are setup for KA usage. Really the bss package was a last minute addition and might even be just to push this issue with out having to really get anywhere along building another sat.

Just a thought but does anyone know which other bss slots are shared and which aren't? Sharing the same slot with Canada and Mexico or the Caribbean makes sense but sharing the same slot with Canada and Mexico puts them really close together and really ends up limiting one or both to only using spots which would primarily limit it to providing locals. This really doesn't seem like it uses the allocation more efficiently.


----------



## LameLefty

Not directly related to the upcoming launch of D12 or the regulatory issues facing the RB-2A payload, but good reading for anyone interested in the financial and managerial aspects of the satellite launch biz . . .

http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/pdf/Sat-Finance-Dec-2009.pdf


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> The RB-2A, aka the bss package, on D12 is only a very small part of it and it is unclear at this point what it will even be used for. The national Tps and most of the spots are setup for KA usage. Really the bss package was a last minute addition and might even be just to push this issue with out having to really get anywhere along building another sat.
> 
> Just a thought but does anyone know which other bss slots are shared and which aren't? Sharing the same slot with Canada and Mexico or the Caribbean makes sense but sharing the same slot with Canada and Mexico puts them really close together and really ends up limiting one or both to only using spots which would primarily limit it to providing locals. This really doesn't seem like it uses the allocation more efficiently.


The FCC approvals from 7/28/2009 ... the Notes are from early September last time I checked:



*FCC Application*
|
*Company*
|
*Callsign*
|
*Slot*
|
*Notes*

SAT-LOA-20050210-00031|Intelsat|S2662|91°|Surrendered
SAT-LOA-20060412-00042|Pegasus|S2698|91°|Surrendered
|
SAT-LOA-20060908-00099|DirecTV|S2711|99°|Paid
SAT-LOA-20050210-00029|Intelsat|S2660|99°|Surrendered
|
SAT-LOA-20060908-00100|DirecTV |S2712|103°|Paid
|
SAT-LOA-19970605-00049|DirecTV|	S2242|107°|Surrendered
SAT-LOA-20020328-00052|EchoStar|S2442|107°|Paid
SAT-LOA-20060412-00043|Pegasus|S2699|107°|Surrendered
|
SAT-LOA-20020328-00051|EchoStar|S2441|111°|Paid
SAT-LOA-19970605-00050|DirecTV|	S2243|111°|Paid


----------



## LameLefty

Good data from the FCC. I was digging around the ITU site earlier trying to see which particular slots might be shared among countries like 103 is, but I haven't had enough coffee to find what I need yet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

WOW - only 202 hours away now and counting...


----------



## Piratefan98

You know, in the cut-throat world of satellite/cable, I'm surprised one of these sleazy cable companies hasn't hired a mercenary with one of those shoulder-mounted anti aircraft missile launchers to shoot down a DirecTV satellite launch. How much could a job like that cost? 50K? 100K?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Piratefan98 said:


> You know, in the cut-throat world of satellite/cable, I'm surprised one of these sleazy cable companies hasn't hired a mercenary with one of those shoulder-mounted anti aircraft missile launchers to shoot down a DirecTV satellite launch. How much could a job like that cost? 50K? 100K?


SHHHH!! Don't give them any ideas! :eek2:


----------



## HoTat2

Piratefan98 said:


> You know, in the cut-throat world of satellite/cable, I'm surprised one of these sleazy cable companies hasn't hired a mercenary with one of those shoulder-mounted anti aircraft missile launchers to shoot down a DirecTV satellite launch. How much could a job like that cost? 50K? 100K?


While all in fun of course, but can an antiaircraft missile even catch up to a rocket like the Proton? Early in its accent phase perhaps if a terrorist could get close enough to the launch pad, but about a minute or so after launch, the Proton is moving way too fast for any shoulder fired AA missile to catch I would think ...


----------



## P Smith

Good shoulder launcher could go high for 5 km altitude.  What is a time interval before Proton will reach the level ?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Good shoulder launcher could go high for 5 km altitude.  What is a time interval before Proton will reach the level ?


Forget the altitude - they don't have the impulse to catch it unless launched in the first 20 seconds or so, from VERY close.


----------



## HoTat2

BTW, in case anyone has some ideas;

Just studying over D12's "Schedule S" and I'm counting a sum total of up to 123 spotbeam transponders maximum, yet the specifications for D10, 11, and 12 always list only 55 active TWTAs (not counting the 15 spares) at 70 watts each to service the spotbeam transponders.

Even taking away Tps. assigned to the 5 spotbeams D12 will not be using at 103 brings the total Tps. count down to 110.

So what is this, around two spotbeam transponders share one TWTA between them? 

I mean the Schedule S does give each spotbeam transponder's initial power output before the antenna feeder system loss at ~15.4 dbw or 35 watts which is 1/2 of 70 watts.

Appreciate any thoughts...


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Forget the altitude - they don't have the impulse to catch it unless launched in the first 20 seconds or so, from VERY close.


It could, lets count speed of the Proton monster at 4 KM altitude and assume the AA gadget could fly with 2M speed and located at 4 KM off launch pad.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> It could, lets count speed of the Proton monster at 4 KM altitude and assume the AA gadget could fly with 2M speed and located at 4 KM off launch pad.


It's not the speed, it's the impulse and acceleration.


----------



## rrrick8

:righton:


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> It's not the speed, it's the impulse and acceleration.


Every variable of resulting formula would be accounted. 
[Those years resolving a system of equations of flying object in different layers of Earth atmosphere ... I recall successful missions at 0.1...5 KM altitudes for targets flying up to 1.5M ]


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Piratefan98 said:


> You know, in the cut-throat world of satellite/cable, I'm surprised one of these sleazy cable companies hasn't hired a mercenary with one of those shoulder-mounted anti aircraft missile launchers to shoot down a DirecTV satellite launch. How much could a job like that cost? 50K? 100K?


I don't they want to go to a Russian prison by doing that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Piratefan98 said:


> You know, in the cut-throat world of satellite/cable, I'm surprised one of these sleazy cable companies hasn't hired a mercenary with one of those shoulder-mounted anti aircraft missile launchers to shoot down a DirecTV satellite launch. How much could a job like that cost? 50K? 100K?


That's just sooooooo wrong.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Any word about if it will be televised or are we stuck with the online feed from ILS?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Any word about if it will be televised or are we stuck with the online feed from ILS?


The D11 launch was on channel 573, but didn't show a program until shortly before the launch.

May be the same this time.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> The D11 launch was on channel 573, but didn't show a program until shortly before the launch.
> 
> May be the same this time.


Hopefully in High Definition this time!


----------



## Sixto

Updated post#1 with the RB-2A testing details from Thursday.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

smiddy said:


> Hopefully in High Definition this time!


maybe on 576-1 or the 101


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Sixto said:


> The D11 launch was on channel 573, but didn't show a program until shortly before the launch.
> 
> May be the same this time.


open to all?


----------



## Sixto

JoeTheDragon said:


> open to all?


yep!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I wish HDNet would cover it. They got the best HD picture out there.


----------



## Sixto

Doubt we're talking about any high-tech HD production studio here. 

Should be very similar to the D11 & W7 launch ... with Miss Nom-eee-nul!


----------



## kevinwmsn

Sixto said:


> Doubt we're talking about any high-tech HD production studio here.
> 
> Should be very similar to the D11 & W7 launch ... with Miss Nom-eee-nul!


There's nothing wrong with a Nom-eee-nul launch. 
Chatroom might be pretty busy during the launch.


----------



## Sixto

ILS D12 Blog Update (12/18/2009):http://www.ilslaunch.com/rockin-the-joint-ops/​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> ILS D12 Blog Update (12/18/2009):http://www.ilslaunch.com/rockin-the-joint-ops/​


Work and eat.

Eat and work.

Sounds like good times. :lol:


----------



## barryb

One week to go!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

barryb said:


> One week to go!


177 Hours....but who's counting???


----------



## Sixto

ILS D12 Photo Gallery just updated:http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​Some nice new pics. They're signing this puppy!

My favorite )):http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/gal...Resize500500-2009-DTV-12-Logo-signing-004.JPG​


----------



## ATARI

Only one short week to go.

A successful launch would be the best Christmas present I could ask for.

And lots of HD in the New Year!


----------



## smiddy

I like this quote:


> We celebrated the encapsulation of the PLF by having a Spaghetti and Meatballs night, with the ILS Program Director providing the cooking. We are happy to report that all participants survived his first attempt at cooking in Baikonur!


It sounds like they try to make the best of it there! I'm sure it is no picnic.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> My favorite )):
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/gal...Resize500500-2009-DTV-12-Logo-signing-004.JPG​


That is hilarious! :lol:


----------



## Sixto

More good stuff (12/21/2009 per Anik):http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=475​
Click on "ENG" in upper right for translation.


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> The FCC approvals from 7/28/2009 ... the Notes are from early September last time I checked:
> 
> 
> 
> *FCC Application*
> |
> *Company*
> |
> *Callsign*
> |
> *Slot*
> |
> *Notes*
> 
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00031|Intelsat|S2662|91°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00042|Pegasus|S2698|91°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00099|DirecTV|S2711|99°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00029|Intelsat|S2660|99°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00100|DirecTV |S2712|103°|Paid
> |
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00049|DirecTV|	S2242|107°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00052|EchoStar|S2442|107°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00043|Pegasus|S2699|107°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00051|EchoStar|S2441|111°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050|DirecTV|	S2243|111°|Paid


That shows the FCC approvals which would only be the US allocations, I assume. It doesn't note anything about 103 being shared with Ciel for Canadian coverage.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> That shows the FCC approvals which would only be the US allocations, I assume. It doesn't note anything about 103 being shared with Ciel for Canadian coverage.


Correct. Had never looked into anything other then the FCC grants.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> More good stuff (12/21/2009 per Anik):http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=475​
> Click on "ENG" in upper right for translation.


Lovin all the photos...really neat.

Is it me, or does that hanging D12 unit look like a giant pina'ta? 

The good news is by this time tommorrow, the whole Proton Rocket through D12 assembly will be put together.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> More good stuff (12/21/2009 per Anik):http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=475​
> Click on "ENG" in upper right for translation.


Wonder what those large hoses are supplying which are connected to those two red colored access thingys protruding from the nose cone in the photos where "Space Head Unit" (according to KhSC terminology) is actually attached to the Proton LV?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Wonder what those large hoses are supplying which are connected to those two red colored access thingys protruding from the nose cone in the photos where "Space Head Unit" (according to KhSC terminology) is actually attached to the Proton LV?


Environmental control for the payload and upper stage - probably purging the fairing with a steady flow of dry air or possibly nitrogen for temperature and humidity control. Plus, the upper stage propellants are hypergolic, as are some of the satellite propellants. On the slim chance some of them start to leak, you DON'T want them to build up. They will, after all, burn if they combine, and they are VERY toxic.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'm still amazed at how it all works, from the launch, to deployment and parking to beaming down new channels. Can't wait!


----------



## smiddy

I can't wait, only







to go!


----------



## eandras

I think they should let us DBS talk group subscribers sign D12. Earl could you help with that? :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> ILS D12 Photo Gallery just updated:http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​Some nice new pics. They're signing this puppy!
> 
> My favorite )):http://www.ilslaunch.com/assets/gal...Resize500500-2009-DTV-12-Logo-signing-004.JPG​


Now being the somewhat smarta$$ that I am, I think my message on the rocket would be "This one's for you, Charlie."


----------



## LameLefty

Indiana627 said:


> Now being the somewhat smarta$$ that I am, I think my message on the rocket would be "This one's for you, Charlie."


:lol:

Just for the readers at DBSTalk, I'd write, "No, TravelHD is NOT coming!" !rolling


----------



## stephenC

My wishes for 2010 are peace on Earth, D12 in orbit, and MRV.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> :lol:
> 
> Just for the readers at DBSTalk, I'd write, "No, TravelHD is NOT coming!" !rolling


How about Sweet Brott Robertson Alsobrook Bonovich or Bust?


----------



## Richierich

Just for the readers at DBSTalk, I'd write, "NO TRAVEL HD IS NOT COMING" :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> :lol:
> 
> Just for the readers at DBSTalk, I'd write, "No, TravelHD is NOT coming!" !rolling





richierich said:


> Just for the readers at DBSTalk, I'd write, "NO TRAVEL HD IS NOT COMING" :lol:


Echo Echo Echo....


----------



## Sixto

Here's what we need on the side of D12 )):


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Here's what we need on the side of D12 )):


Or else a big *+1*


----------



## bjlc

no.. maybe now we can have VERSUS BACK...


----------



## bjlc

or you could put "how many more channels of HD does dish have now..?"


----------



## Satelliteracer

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Any word about if it will be televised or are we stuck with the online feed from ILS?


I know employees can see it not sure if all customers. Channel 577 at 7:00pm EST


----------



## Sixto

Satelliteracer said:


> I know employees can see it not sure if all customers. Channel 577 at 7:00pm EST


Looks like we can't get 577, unless they authorize it.

Last time was on 573, which may happen again.

576-1 can do HD, but highly unlikely.

Thanks SatRacer!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer said:


> I know employees can see it not sure if all customers. Channel 577 at 7:00pm EST


I thought the launch time was 6:22 PM EST.

Why can't customers watch it? We paid for the damn thing.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Here's what we need on the side of D12 )):


Yeah, that would be *totally awesome*!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Looks like we can't get 577, unless they authorize it.
> 
> Last time was on 573, which may happen again.
> 
> 576-1 can do HD, but highly unlikely.
> 
> Thanks SatRacer!


I'm thinking 573 like you on this one...if its on at all....


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I thought the launch time was 6:22 PM EST.
> 
> Why can't customers watch it? We paid for the damn thing.


post#1.

7:22pm ET.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> post#1.
> 
> 7:22pm ET.


my mistake


----------



## cdhinch

ILS has released a media advisory at http://ilslaunch.com/news-122209. Also, the Broadcast link on the ILS site is now active. http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/


----------



## Sixto

cdhinch said:


> ILS has released a media advisory at http://ilslaunch.com/news-122209. Also, the Broadcast link on the ILS site is now active. http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/


Thanks. Post#1 updated.


----------



## Sixto

Grant of Authority for one on the D12 Earth Stations (12/22/2009):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for up to 30 days to provide launch and early orbit phase services for the DIRECTV 12 satellite from its Canoga Park, California earth station (call sign E020241)."

Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Grant: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=791049​


----------



## HoTat2

Well one thing is for certain, whether or not DirecTV activates a channel 577 for subscribers to watch it won't be in HD. If fact not even close to HD as assuming DirecTV borrows the North American feed of the launch from ILS, it won't even be digital SD. But analog NTSC SD from an old-fashioned C-band satellite transmission.

*BROADCAST WILL BE SEEN IN NORTH AMERICA ON:
Satellite: Galaxy 16
Transponder: 10C
Orbital Position: 99 W
Band: C Analog NTSC
Bandwidth: 36 MHz
Uplink Frequency: 6124.0 MHz Horizontal
Downlink Frequency: 3900.0 MHz Vertical *

Wow... forgot some of these old style analog C-band satellite feeds are still around anymore...


----------



## raoul5788

HoTat2 said:


> Well one thing is for certain, whether or not DirecTV activates a channel 557 for subscribers to watch it won't be in HD. If fact not even close to HD as assuming DirecTV borrows the North American feed of the launch from ILS, it won't even be digital SD. But analog NTSC SD from an old-fashioned C-band satellite transmission.
> 
> *BROADCAST WILL BE SEEN IN NORTH AMERICA ON:
> Satellite: Galaxy 16
> Transponder: 10C
> Orbital Position: 99 W
> Band: C Analog NTSC
> Bandwidth: 36 MHz
> Uplink Frequency: 6124.0 MHz Horizontal
> Downlink Frequency: 3900.0 MHz Vertical *
> 
> Wow... forgot some of these old style analog C-band satellite feeds are still around anymore...


When I first got my cband system in 1992, analog looked better than much of what passes for hd today.


----------



## Tom_S

raoul5788 said:


> When I first got my cband system in 1992, analog looked better than much of what passes for hd today.


Like there was a TV back in 1992 that could compare to today's TV's. Please.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom_S said:


> Like there was a TV back in 1992 that could compare to today's TV's. Please.


I don't have any personal experience with C-band, but I do know that a good Trinitron CRT combined with high bit-rate SD from Directv/USSB in 1997 looked AMAZING.


----------



## gphvid

raoul5788 said:


> When I first got my cband system in 1992, analog looked better than much of what passes for hd today.


I beg to differ in that despite the fact that there were no TVs to match today's offerings, C-band does have to be focused, or tuned in correctly to eliminate picture noise. The little black dots or lines if the receiver was off slightly in one direction, or the white ones if it was off in the other. We had all sorts of difficulties at the TV station I worked at during this period trying to eliminate the noise to get a clear signal. The larger dishes seem to help.


----------



## gphvid

Sixto said:


> Grant of Authority for one on the D12 Earth Stations (12/22/2009):"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority for up to 30 days to provide launch and early orbit phase services for the DIRECTV 12 satellite from its Canoga Park, California earth station (call sign E020241)."
> 
> Application: http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> Grant: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=791049​


Canoga Park, eh? I wonder if this is (was) the Rocketdyne facility on (I think) De Soto a couple of miles north of the 101 freeway...


----------



## LameLefty

gphvid said:


> Canoga Park, eh? I wonder if this is (was) the Rocketdyne facility on (I think) De Soto a couple of miles north of the 101 freeway...


Who knows how accurate it is, but Google Maps puts the coordinates about 2 miles due north of Canoga Park, right on someone's roof in a little residential development right between two ball fields and next door to a middle school. 

Okay, well, screw the Lat/Long coordinates provided in the paperwork.  The actual address for the earth station is at Boeing's facility at 8900 DeSoto Avenue. Here's what I think are the uplink dishes:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...14,-118.585699&spn=0.001326,0.002468&t=h&z=19


----------



## doctor j

Google map street view 8900 desoto ave Conoga Park CA.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Google map street view 8900 desoto ave Conoga Park CA.
> 
> Doctor j


Yeah, Boeing has like the entire city block there; Our Google Overlords show offices for Boeing proper, Pratt & Whitney and Rocketdyne at the same address (with all the mergers, consolidations and spin-offs in the aerospace industry since the late 60's, it's hard to remember which companies are truly independent anymore, let alone what names they go by! :lol.


----------



## raoul5788

Tom_S said:


> Like there was a TV back in 1992 that could compare to today's TV's. Please.


I didn't say there was. The signal quality, maybe quantity, for lack of a better term, was MUCH better then, very little compression apparently. I had a rp toshiba, 50", IIRC. Believe it or not, the picture was outstanding.


----------



## sunking

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, Boeing has like the entire city block there; Our Google Overlords show offices for Boeing proper, Pratt & Whitney and Rocketdyne at the same address (with all the mergers, consolidations and spin-offs in the aerospace industry since the late 60's, it's hard to remember which companies are truly independent anymore, let alone what names they go by! :lol.


It's now P&W Rocketdyne. United Technologies bought them from Boeing in 2005, gave the rocket engine business to P&W and Electric Power to Hamilton. I'm not sure if Boeing has a presence on that site anymore.


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, Boeing has like the entire city block there; Our Google Overlords show offices for Boeing proper, Pratt & Whitney and Rocketdyne at the same address (with all the mergers, consolidations and spin-offs in the aerospace industry since the late 60's, it's hard to remember which companies are truly independent anymore, let alone what names they go by! :lol.


I lived in Canoga Park from 1963-1984 and wondered where the ground station was located (I worked for 15+ years at the Hughes facility a few miles away which was torn down after suffering heavy damage in the 1994 earthquake.) I was in the area last month and would have driven by if I had known the address at that time.

Rocketdyne is now owned by Pratt & Whitney. They have/had a facility in the hills where they would periodically run tests of some of the big rocket engines which could be heard from several miles away. We could see the road up there from one of the Hughes roofhouse labs and I remember seeing the traffic on the road being tracked by a Maverick seeker head :jump3:

I recall there was a small ground station facility on Lincoln Blvd north of LAX, but it was gone when I drove past that area last month.


----------



## Tom_S

raoul5788 said:


> Believe it or not, the picture was outstanding.


For SD. However this topic is...


----------



## Sixto

Anik just posted latest. Will post later unless someone else has access sooner.

D12 with Proton moved from integration facility to fueling station ...


----------



## zudy

I got a text mess. yesterday that stated D* will show the launch on channel 577.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Anik just posted latest. Will post later unless someone else has access sooner.
> 
> D12 with Proton moved from integration facility to fueling station ...


Here's Anik's post . . .



> DirecTV-12 Mission: Proton M Moved to Breeze M Fuelling Station
> 23.12.2009
> 
> http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?id=1&nid=476
> 
> Early this morning, the Proton Breeze M launch vehicle with the DirecTV-12 spacecraft (encapsulated into fairing and wrapped in its protective shroud) was moved from the Proton integration facility to fueling station located at Area [92], where the launcher will undergo final preparations before being moved to Launch Pad 39 at Area 200. These activities include loading of low-pressure fuel and oxidizer into the Breeze M upper stage, which will last within two days. Technical crews (from Khrunichev and Chemical Machinery Design Bureau - "KB TKhM") have already begun the fuelling operations.
> 
> Once the propellant components are loaded, the members of Russian State commission will meet at Baikonur to give authorization for the rollout of the Proton LV to launch pad 39.


There are some cool pics too.


----------



## LameLefty

sunking said:


> It's now P&W Rocketdyne. United Technologies bought them from Boeing in 2005, gave the rocket engine business to P&W and Electric Power to Hamilton. I'm not sure if Boeing has a presence on that site anymore.


Like I said, the aerospace industry these days is a complete mish-mash that seems to change every other year.


----------



## ncgbrown

is that snow on the ground?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

ncgbrown said:


> is that snow on the ground?


Sure looks like it.


----------



## smiddy

zudy said:


> I got a text mess. yesterday that stated D* will show the launch on channel 577.


Thanks!


----------



## doctor j

With all the discussion about authorizing testing of RB-2a with the Conoga Park CA. earth station, I started recalling the spotbeam and CONUS maps of RB-2a. Spots were Alaska/Juneau area, Washington State, Utah and El Paso.

How does Southern CA. fit into this??

Other undiscovered data?, Reaiming from 76 degrees with spots as they are?or it doesn't matter they just point it where they want to?

The original earth station request fell nicely into the Washington State spot.

Doctor j


----------



## davemayo

zudy said:


> I got a text mess. yesterday that stated D* will show the launch on channel 577.


Is this showing up in the guide?


----------



## bobnielsen

davemayo said:


> Is this showing up in the guide?


Yes. Channel 577, 4:00 pm (PST) Monday, replay at 5:00 pm.


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> With all the discussion about authorizing testing of RB-2a with the Conoga Park CA. earth station, I started recalling the spotbeam and CONUS maps of RB-2a. Spots were Alaska/Juneau area, Washington State, Utah and El Paso.
> 
> How does Southern CA. fit into this??
> 
> Other undiscovered data?, Reaiming from 76 degrees with spots as they are?or it doesn't matter they just point it where they want to?
> 
> The original earth station request fell nicely into the Washington State spot.
> 
> Doctor j


AFAIK, the Canoga Park, CA. earth station has nothing to do with D12's RB-2A operations, but DirecTV requested and received authorization (an "STA" specifically) to use their Canoga Park uplink station to provide TT&C operations during D12's launch and early orbit raising phases.

Both RB-2A's in orbit testing (IOT) and actual service pending final FCC approval, are to be provided from DirecTV's "Northwest Uplink Facility." (NWUF) at Moxee, WA.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I tried to tape the launch and it said no dice, not authorized.


----------



## freerein100

The channel is not authorized yet it is grayed out but you can tell it to record anyway


----------



## davemayo

That channel is not yet accessible on the Direct iPhone app.


----------



## Sixto

Another FCC Filing on the BSS Issue (12/23/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=791126​
Nasty ...


----------



## Movieman

Sixto said:


> Another FCC Filing on the BSS Issue (12/23/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=791126​
> Nasty ...


Im not familiar enough with the technology to understand but what issue does Spectrum 5 have with Directv's request?


----------



## Sixto

Movieman said:


> Im not familiar enough with the technology to understand but what issue does Spectrum 5 have with Directv's request?


Several battles going on ... been discussing in this thread over past few months ...

Here's the list of letters back-and-forth:http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ts?f_key=-173036&f_number=SATLOA2009080700085​
Spectrum's been trying to block DirecTV, and issues with Ciel as well.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Another FCC Filing on the BSS Issue (12/23/2009):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=791126​
> Nasty ...


Sound and fury, signifying nothing. Spectrum Five is committing the acts that make people hate lawyers, e.g., putting form over substance. :nono: There's NO conceivable reason why the FCC should deny Directv's testing requests, especially having already granted permission 18 months ago to test the experimental payload on D11 (and recently granted permission for further testing, if I recall correctly). They're basically filing this opposition out of spite and I don't think the FCC would see it any other way.

The logical thing for the Commission to do, it seems to me, is to grant permission for testing only, continuing to hold the rest of the RB-2A application in abeyance pending (hopefully) some kind of negotiated settlement or deal between the various BSS contenders.

The truly nasty part will be when D12 moves to 103 and there's no deal between the parties.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> ... They're basically filing this opposition out of spite and I don't think the FCC would see it any other way.


Well I give up ... I've read Spectrum 5's letter of opposition here about four times now and still cannot find any valid sense about their charges.

So it indeed must be simply about spite.

But out of spite for what though specifically? Is spectrum 5 just jealous because DirecTV about to beat them and everyone else to the punch by years in deploying a BSS system?

Boy... you talk about a childish two year old mentality here for a supposedly professional corporation ...

Then again I guess I shouldn't really be surprised at anything from anybody these days...


----------



## spear61

HoTat2 said:


> Well I give up ... I've read Spectrum 5's letter of opposition here about four times now and still cannot find any valid sense about their charges.
> 
> :


Precedent. They are trying to stop Directv from getting a foot in the door at the 103 slot.

With a single satellite in place costing something like 300 million they need a big backer, someone like SES or similar to foot the bill. It is highly unlikely they will every launch any of their satellites since there were something like 15 licenses issued to existing businesses for the 17 ghz satellites this year. More than enough for Directv and Dish and others providers for all the capacity they need for the next 10 years. So, Spectrum is trying to hold prime slots ransom. I'd guess that the big boys will just ignore them and their license concessions will expire for failure to perform. If the US providers do a deal with anyone, it will probably be Ciel (SES).


----------



## Tim Godsil

17ghz??? what the heck for?


----------



## LameLefty

Tim Godsil said:


> 17ghz??? what the heck for?


The RB-2A BSS band. That's what the kerfuffle is all about. The Ka band payload isn't an issue.


----------



## bakers12

spear61 said:


> They are trying to stop Directv from getting a foot in the door at the 103 slot.


Actually, Spectrum is trying to keep RB-2A out of the 76 degree slot.


----------



## LameLefty

bakers12 said:


> Actually, Spectrum is trying to keep RB-2A out of the 76 degree slot.


Not really. In the short run, sure. They're trying to stop Directv from testing the RB-2A payload. But in the long run, since the testing phase is only 30 days, and it's nowhere near the operational slot AND since there basically ARE no operational BSS payloads anywhere in the western hemisphere, it's all just a spoiler tactic. The big fight is the ITU's decision to allocate the BSS 103 slot to more than one country, for whatever stupid reason.


----------



## QuickDrop

LameLefty said:


> The logical thing for the Commission to do, it seems to me, is to grant permission for testing only, continuing to hold the rest of the RB-2A application in abeyance pending (hopefully) some kind of negotiated settlement or deal between the various BSS contenders.
> 
> The truly nasty part will be when D12 moves to 103 and there's no deal between the parties.


Well, since you seem to know what you are talking about, here's my question, which I may have asked before and forgot about:

Is there any way that this BSS dispute could get in the way of D* providing programing from D12 that is not related to the BSS band? I care about the future and all that, but the vast the majority of D12 is dedicated to present technology and I hope, and assume, D12 can be a "go" no matter who some government body claims owns a new frequency,


----------



## Sixto

QuickDrop said:


> Well, since you seem to know what you are talking about, here's my question, which I may have asked before and forgot about:
> 
> Is there any way that this BSS dispute could get in the way of D* providing programing from D12 that is not related to the BSS band? I care about the future and all that, but the vast the majority of D12 is dedicated to present technology and I hope, and assume, D12 can be a "go" no matter who some government body claims owns a new frequency,


There have not been any indications of any effect on D12 Ka National or LiL. The license was fully approved. Just awaiting the STA for the testing. It was the BSS that was "deferred".


----------



## LameLefty

QuickDrop said:


> Well, since you seem to know what you are talking about, here's my question, which I may have asked before and forgot about:
> 
> Is there any way that this BSS dispute could get in the way of D* providing programing from D12 that is not related to the BSS band? I care about the future and all that, but the vast the majority of D12 is dedicated to present technology and I hope, and assume, D12 can be a "go" no matter who some government body claims owns a new frequency,





Sixto said:


> There have not been any indications of any effect on D12 Ka National or LiL. The license was fully approved. Just awaiting the STA for the testing. It was the BSS that was "deferred".


Yep, Sixto is right. The RB-2A payload (the BSS band part of things) is the only part that's being held up by regulatory red tape. The Ka band part (D12 proper) has been approved for launch and operation, although as Sixto points out, the FCC still has to give special temporary authority for pre-operational testing. That's expected as a matter of course for the Ka payload. The question at the moment is whether or not the FCC will allow Directv to test the BSS payload as well.


----------



## Sixto

It is interesting that the D12 STA for testing hasn't been approved yet. I was expecting it today. Figured nothing will happen Christmas Eve, and the launch is Monday.

I guess it's going to take a while to get to 76°, so maybe there's no rush.


----------



## freerein100

Does the FCC need to give approval for STA before D12 launches or can they can they just wait for next week or so to give approval


----------



## QuickDrop

Sixto said:


> There have not been any indications of any effect on D12 Ka National or LiL. The license was fully approved. Just awaiting the STA for the testing. It was the BSS that was "deferred".


That's what I figured. My only other/question is whether D* would keep D12 from going live until everything is settled, so that they could fully use D12's capabilities or whether they will focus purely on the needs of the current market.


----------



## Sixto

QuickDrop said:


> That's what I figured. My only other/question is whether D* would keep D12 from going live until everything is settled, so that they could fully use D12's capabilities or whether they will focus purely on the needs of the current market.


We really can't be certain.

There could be a scenario where they want to do BSS testing from 76°, but the BSS approval continues to get delayed due to the dispute, and they delay things a little to get it all done at 76°. This may also not happen, and they stay on schedule.

Time will tell ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If they're getting ready to fuel the rocket...it would seem we're past a "hold" period without significant cost implications.

My guess is things continue forward on the launch, and the 76 degrees issue continues to be fought with the FCC....


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If they're getting ready to *fuel the rocket*...it would seem we're past a "hold" period without significant cost implications.
> 
> My guess is things continue forward on the launch, and the 76 degrees issue continues to be fought with the FCC....


Glad you bought this up because its a little confusing, since everywhere I see mention is made of any fueling operations during launch preparations of the satellite (SC) and Proton-M/Breeze-M at ILS it either involves the satellite or the low and high pressure fuel systems for the Breeze-M.

When and where do the three stages of the Proton rocket itself actually receive their fueling?

On the launch pad a day or so before launch time or something?


----------



## lee78221

What is DirecTV going to use the RB2A BSS band for?


----------



## P Smith

lee78221 said:


> What is DirecTV going to use the RB2A BSS band for?


For sell more TV channels to us.


----------



## Tom Robertson

lee78221 said:


> What is DirecTV going to use the RB2A BSS band for?


We don't directly know, other than the FCC filings indicate more, advanced video services of some type or another.

Since one of the new spotbeams is aimed at me, I'm looking forward and curious. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Tom, did you read that FCC document where DTV told BSS signal will be UNMODULATED? 

Sorry, no one will get data from the payload. 
Spectrum analyzer would be the tool.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Tom, did you read that FCC document where DTV told BSS signal will be UNMODULATED?
> 
> Sorry, no one will get data from the payload.
> Spectrum analyzer would be the tool.


As with the Ka-band spotbeams, I read DirecTV's FCC application for an STA from a link posted awhile back which said the "in orbit testing" (IOT) for the BSS payload scheduled at 76° W will use CW or unmodulated carriers.

Also the document stated that all four BSS spotbeams will be successively tested while focused only on the feeder uplink station for the RB-2A payload at Moxee, WA.

So unfortunately I don't think you, Tom, or anyone else's spectrum analyzer will be of any use to monitor CW signals during this testing phase unless someone can get inside or near enough to the spotbeam's footprint over Yakima County, WA. I suppose. :nono2:


----------



## Sixto

A nice Christmas move to the launchpad!

News Releases (12/25/2009):"Russian State commission met Thursday evening and authorized the rollout of the DirecTV-12 satellite integrated on top of the Proton M launch vehicle to launch pad.

The integrated launch vehicle (ILV) rolled out from the Breeze M fuelling facility of technical area early this morning. The ILV was moved by rail to launch pad 39 in Area 200 and erected then vertically into its launch position to commence final pre-launch preparations.

The lift off of the Proton Breeze M launch vehicle with the DirecTV-12 communications satellite remains scheduled for December 29."

http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?lang=en​


----------



## LameLefty

Good news indeed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> A nice Christmas move to the launchpad!
> 
> News Releases (12/25/2009):"Russian State commission met Thursday evening and authorized the rollout of the DirecTV-12 satellite integrated on top of the Proton M launch vehicle to launch pad.
> 
> The integrated launch vehicle (ILV) rolled out from the Breeze M fuelling facility of technical area early this morning. The ILV was moved by rail to launch pad 39 in Area 200 and erected then vertically into its launch position to commence final pre-launch preparations.
> 
> The lift off of the Proton Breeze M launch vehicle with the DirecTV-12 communications satellite remains scheduled for December 29."
> 
> http://www.khrunichev.ru/main.php?lang=en​


I guess I get to say it for now....

Everything is *NOM EEE NAL*...


----------



## mobandit

HoTat2 said:


> As with the Ka-band spotbeams, I read DirecTV's FCC application for an STA from a link posted awhile back which said the "in orbit testing" (IOT) for the BSS payload scheduled at 76° W will use CW or unmodulated carriers.
> 
> Also the document stated that all four BSS spotbeams will be successively tested while focused only on the feeder uplink station for the RB-2A payload at Moxee, WA.
> 
> So unfortunately I don't think you, Tom, or anyone else's spectrum analyzer will be of any use to monitor CW signals during this testing phase unless someone can get inside or near enough to the spotbeam's footprint over Yakima County, WA. I suppose. :nono2:


I'm from that area...still have family there...but won't be there to help...


----------



## Sixto

Some GREAT pics!

http://www.federalspace.ru/main.php?id=2&nid=8729


----------



## LameLefty

I think somebody (HoTat2 maybe?) asked earlier where the Proton itself is fueled. At the time I read the post I was scanning the forum and didn't have time to respond and then I forgot. Oops. :grin: But in any event, the answer is, at the pad. The rocket is transported basically empty and then erected onto the launch pad (that erector strongback) would have a hard time lifting a few hundred thousand pounds of liquids along with the rocket structure itself, plus the tanks would be subject to a lot of stresses in different directions and angles as the vehicle is stood up). Plus, and again I don't mean to harp on it, but the hypergolics used by Proton are very unpleasant and dangerous. The quantities used by the spacecraft and upper stage are substantial and require special handling, but the much larger quantities required by the three stages of the Proton itself are substantially larger and pose a much bigger hazard. Fueling at the pad creates a nice buffer zone between the processing areas for rockets and payloads and the launch pad in the event of a major problem or accident.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thanks for the picture Sixto.

All I can tell is that the Proton is one big-butt rocket! :lol:


----------



## bb37

OK, some questions for you rocket scientists from someone who knows nothing about launch sites.

1. The red (orange?) and white tower to the left looks like either a tower crane or an antenna tower. Which is it? If antenna tower, why would they need an antenna tower so close to the launch pad?

2. There are two smaller towers to the right and left that have an array of something on top. Floodlamps? Am I seeing a similar array on the red and white tower?

3. The structure to the left that's leaning at about a 30 degree angle is a fueling gantry?

4. What is the horizontal "rack" at the left edge of the photo? Support for fuel lines or electrical cables?

5. Can I assume that the vehicles will be moved back before launch? Can I also assume that all of the small structures are either portable and will be moved before launch or are really well tied down? There just seems to be a lot of "stuff" near the base of the launch vehicle.

Thanks.


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> OK, some questions for you rocket scientists from someone who knows nothing about launch sites.
> 
> 1. The red (orange?) and white tower to the left looks like either a tower crane or an antenna tower. Which is it? If antenna tower, why would they need an antenna tower so close to the launch pad?


I think it's a multiple-use tower. I believe it serves as lightning protection for the pad plus a mounting for additional floodlights.



> 2. There are two smaller towers to the right and left that have an array of something on top. Floodlamps? Am I seeing a similar array on the red and white tower?


Yes, and yes. 



> 3. The structure to the left that's leaning at about a 30 degree angle is a fueling gantry?


That's the erector strongback. The rocket is transported by rail mounted to that structure and then erected onto the launch pad. After that, the erector is lowered out of the way. The Soviets and now the Russians have long preferred that method of booster preparation, while American preference was vertical stacking and transportation. Interestingly, newer Amercian rockets are going in the same direction. The Delta IV is transported horizontally and erected onto the pad in the same way, as are the new SpaceX Falcon family of boosters.



> 4. What is the horizontal "rack" at the left edge of the photo? Support for fuel lines or electrical cables?


I don't know for sure, but you're probably right.



> 5. Can I assume that the vehicles will be moved back before launch? Can I also assume that all of the small structures are either portable and will be moved before launch or are really well tied down? There just seems to be a lot of "stuff" near the base of the launch vehicle.


Anything that's too valuable to risk losing in an accident will be moved quite far from the pad before fueling operations and launch.


----------



## Sixto

Now we have D12 Videos!


----------



## HoTat2

Yes, it was me earlier with that question LameLefty;

And thanks for the info./clarification. For some strange reason the final fueling for the Proton-M rocket itself seems to be omitted in any of the ILS pre-launch processing chronologies for the Proton-M/Breeze-M I could find.



LameLefty said:


> I think somebody (HoTat2 maybe?) asked earlier where the Proton itself is fueled. At the time I read the post I was scanning the forum and didn't have time to respond and then I forgot. Oops. :grin: But in any event, the answer is, at the pad. The rocket is transported basically empty and then erected onto the launch pad (that erector strongback) would have a hard time lifting a few hundred thousand pounds of liquids along with the rocket structure itself, plus the tanks would be subject to a lot of stresses in different directions and angles as the vehicle is stood up). Plus, and again I don't mean to harp on it, but the hypergolics used by Proton are very unpleasant and dangerous. The quantities used by the spacecraft and upper stage are substantial and require special handling, but the much larger quantities required by the three stages of the Proton itself are substantially larger and pose a much bigger hazard. Fueling at the pad creates a nice buffer zone between the processing areas for rockets and payloads and the launch pad in the event of a major problem or accident.


----------



## smiddy

It is getting closer, I can feel it!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Now we have D12 Videos!


Very cool vids! Nice find, Sixto. Merry Christmas to you and your family.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Now we have D12 Videos!


That is amazing video....watching how D12 and the Proton gets to and on the pad.

More impressive yet is how smoothly it all happens, even with the snow on the ground and obvious cold.

Almost makes ya want to be a Rocket Scientist.


----------



## bb37

As a railfan myself, seeing the Russian rail equipment that moves the rocket onto the pad was very interesting. Yes, very cool video.

Come on, Monday!


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That is amazing video....watching how D12 and the Proton gets to and on the pad.
> 
> More impressive yet is how smoothly it all happens, even with the snow on the ground and obvious cold.
> 
> Almost makes ya want to be a Rocket Scientist.


Yeah, I can't believe how easily it goes vertical


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That is amazing video....watching how D12 and the Proton gets to and on the pad.
> 
> More impressive yet is how smoothly it all happens, even with the snow on the ground and obvious cold.
> 
> Almost makes ya want to be a Rocket Scientist.


Yes, Very Impressive!!!


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Yeah, I can't believe how easily it goes vertical


Leverage is fun: you have the heaviest part (the spacecraft and fueled Briz-M upper stage) at one end, and the next heaviest part (the first stage engines) at the other. In between is mostly just empty tankage. Erecting the weight of the spacecraft and upper stage is not that much work; clever design of the erector mechanism allows the mass of the engines to help do the work while the strongback provides support and stability during the movement.


----------



## Groundhog45

Imagine how fast that snow melts when they light all six of those engines. Monday will be great to watch.


----------



## smiddy

Groundhog45 said:


> Imagine how fast that snow melts when they light all six of those engines. Monday will be great to watch.


Two more days, yes!


----------



## rrrick8

smiddy said:


> Two more days, yes!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Groundhog45 said:


> Imagine how fast that snow melts when they light all six of those engines. Monday will be great to watch.


I suspect a fair amount will actually vaporize.


----------



## slimoli

Are we going to be able to watch the live launch on any D* channel ?


----------



## smiddy

slimoli said:


> Are we going to be able to watch the live launch on any D* channel ?


Yes, I think it is 577.


----------



## sdk009

Yes, it will be telecast live on Chan. 577 (even though its greyed out on my EPG.)


----------



## HoTat2

Groundhog45 said:


> Imagine how fast that snow melts when they light all six of those engines. ...


With the first stage ignition flames of generating some two and a half million pounds of thrust at liftoff, I'd say that's a fair assessment.


----------



## sbl

I notice that one of the comments on the second video gave "4PM MST" as the program time, but surely that's 5PM MST...


----------



## DCSholtis

sbl said:


> I notice that one of the comments on the second video gave "4PM MST" as the program time, but surely that's 5PM MST...


Correct as per Twitter D* says the channel will be open for the 7pm EST launch.


----------



## HoTat2

Of course the irony of these ILS launch coverages are they can only be provided up until around the first burn of the Breeze-M upper stage about 11-12 minutes into the flight. After that the accent (or space head) unit will pass beyond the range of Russia's eastern tracking stations and will not reappear until sometime after the second Breeze-M burn over an hour later on the western edge of Russian tracking facilities. 


Thus the one hour telecast scheduled for Monday (in the U.S.) must be largely fleshed out by I assume informational background stories on the D12 satellite and the various corporate entities involved in its manufacture and launch.

ILS, Boeing, DirecTV, etc.


----------



## jefbal99

They also do tracking once its out of site and control room updates, ie "Nom-eee-nul"


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

So do they have hosts on the telecast like the launches on HDNet or is it more like watching C-SPAN?


----------



## Ed Campbell

sbl said:


> I notice that one of the comments on the second video gave "4PM MST" as the program time, but surely that's 5PM MST...


Corrected.


----------



## HoTat2

jefbal99 said:


> They also do tracking once its out of site and control room updates, ie "Nom-eee-nul"


If they do, ILS gives no indication of it. At the prior launch of W7 which had approximately the same mission profile as the upcoming D12 the webcast covered it up until about the first breeze-M burn, then said there would be a data blackout with nothing to report for over an hour until sometime after the second breeze-M burn as the space head unit would be out of range of all Russian tracking stations and to check back on the web-site for further updates.


----------



## HoTat2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So do they have hosts on the telecast like the launches on HDNet or is it more like watching C-SPAN?


Well, if it's the same ILS hosts which are on the webcasts, then I guess it will be the hot-looking Marla Weech, and the dry-as-toast (though he does know his business  ) ILS Program director Michael Thee again...


----------



## MIAMI1683

This is good stuff. I was watching for the first two launches and will be watching tomorrow. 

Let me give some HIGH praise for Sixto on this. Sixto your lead post is AWESOME. I know others have contributed but WOW buddy! What a job by you and the rest of the DBSTalk staff


----------



## Sixto

MIAMI1683 said:


> This is good stuff ...


Thanks.

Finally just a day away!

All seems good so far ...


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Finally just a day away!
> 
> All seems good so far ...


I can't wait...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Many of us have been looking forward to this launch for some time, and thanks to Lefty and Sixto, we have been very informed along the way.

Appreciate all the time and effort help those non-rocket-scientists among us with all the fascinating activities surrounding this launch.

After tomorrow...the next fun will be anticipating, speculating, and watching D12 become activated.


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Many of us have been looking forward to this launch for some time, and thanks to Lefty and Sixto, we have been very informed along the way.
> 
> Appreciate all the time and effort help those non-rocket-scientists among us with all the fascinating activities surrounding this launch. ...


Agreed, and particularly thanks are due considering Sixto and LameLefty's efforts in having to weed through a lot of undoubtably pretty dry material over a long time on the FCC's web-site to keep us all informed.



> After tomorrow...the next fun will be anticipating, speculating, and watching D12 become activated.


True again, though while assuredly necessary I admit to not really looking forward to the slow and methodical orbit raising and circularization phase from GTO. What with not much to report beyond the long series of slowly changing TLE releases along with all the "are we there yet?" sarcasms from bored and impatient posters coming and going on the thread.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Many of us have been looking forward to this launch for some time, and thanks to Lefty and Sixto, we have been very informed along the way.
> 
> Appreciate all the time and effort help those non-rocket-scientists among us with all the fascinating activities surrounding this launch.
> 
> After tomorrow...the next fun will be anticipating, speculating, and watching D12 become activated.


+1.

Great effort on y'alls part to bring us this great info about a great event as far as Directv and getting better and more HD is concerned. Looking forward to the launch and I have the DVR set to record it tomorrow if all goes well as anticipated.

Lots of dedication and hard work goes into this effort and we thank both and others who participate but particularly Sixto...Great Job!!!


----------



## MrDad0330

I agree with you all on the praises for Sixto.. What a great job you have done for all these months..and the DBS team. Thanks for your efforts, we really all appreciated your time and how much we learn from you. I cant wait for tomorrow. Does anyone know how the weather looks over there? I dont suppose the weather is as critical as a shuttle launch.


----------



## HoTat2

MrDad0330 said:


> ... Does anyone know how the weather looks over there? I dont suppose the weather is as critical as a shuttle launch.


From:

http://weather.weatherbug.com/Kazak...ocal-forecast/7-day-forecast.html?zcode=z6286

Forecast for Tuesday Baikonur time:

"Hi: -3° C Lo: -9° C"

"There is a 10% chance of precipitation. Cloudy. Cold. Temperature of -3°C. Winds S 13km. Humidity will be 89% with a dewpoint of -5° and feels-like temperature of -7°C."

Therefore looks like a go (though cold) weather wise ...


----------



## longrider

I clicked your link and the forecast has already been updated to a degree warmer and 20% chance of precipitation. What I want to know is why we never get this weather graphic here:


----------



## bcltoys

When's blastoff.


----------



## LameLefty

bcltoys said:


> When's blastoff.


Read the first post in the thread.


----------



## bcltoys

When's blastoff.


----------



## RobertE

bcltoys said:


> When's blastoff.


Still listed in post #1


----------



## Richierich

You can record it on Channel 577 at 7:00 P.M. E.S.T. on 12/28/09.

Yes Eastern Standard Time.


----------



## doctor j

richierich said:


> You can record it on Channel 577 at 7:00 P.M. on 12/28/09.


Upcoming D-12 launch on 577 does show up on the APG guide BUT for interest downloading the APG data stream tonight on 101 TPN 2 which does all the 101 SD channels shows nothing fom Ch 550 IFC to Ch 589 PBTV except Ch 580 DTV.

Nothing that looks like a Directv internal broadcast on 577.
Will check again after 6 AM in morning but this just reinforces the cryptic nature of Directv.

Doctor j


----------



## joshjr

richierich said:


> You can record it on Channel 577 at 7:00 P.M. on 12/28/09.


Eastern time? so 8pm Central?


----------



## Richierich

I went to the Search function and input D12 and it came up on Channel 577 the same channel as has been reported and I selected it and it said that channel may not be available for recording and I said select it anyway as they will Activate it Prior to Launch!!!

It is 7:00 P.M. E.S.T. as is mentioned in the First Post of this Thread.

Actual Launch is 7:22 P.M. E.S.T.

Again, I want to reiterate that they plan to Activate it just Prior to Launch. Exactly when, I don't know but I set it to Record at that time and ignored the warning that it may not record because the warning is based upon the fact that the channel is not available now but it will be available later on prior to launch.


----------



## RAD

joshjr said:


> Eastern time? so 8pm Central?


Nope, central time is -1 hour from eastern, not +1.


----------



## joshjr

doctor j said:


> Upcoming D-12 launch on 577 does show up on the APG guide BUT for interest downloading the APG data stream tonight on 101 TPN 2 which does all the 101 SD channels shows nothing fom Ch 550 IFC to Ch 589 PBTV except Ch 580 DTV.
> 
> Nothing that looks like a Directv internal broadcast on 577.
> Will check again after 6 AM in morning but this just reinforces the cryptic nature of Directv.
> 
> Doctor j


Channel 577 shows they are showing the launch at 6pm Central tomorrow with a replay at 7pm. Just looked. It did say might not record due to unauthorized channel but I scheduled it anyways.


----------



## freerein100

T minus 24 hrs and counting


----------



## longrider

An interesting note, my H20 does not even list channel 577. It is no issue as I have the HR21 set to record it but I did find that strange


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

joshjr said:


> Channel 577 shows they are showing the launch at 6pm Central tomorrow with a replay at 7pm. Just looked. It did say might not record due to unauthorized channel but I scheduled it anyways.


Same thing just happened to me. Hopefully it records though. At least the online feed will be watchable later.


----------



## joshjr

Coca Cola Kid said:



> Same thing just happened to me. Hopefully it records though. At least the online feed will be watchable later.


Im not that worried about it. I remember it did the same thing in the past when they would have on the DNS feeds that shouldnt be. You could hit record before the show started and it would say the same thing but it would record it fine as long as the feed was on.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

It's in my guide - just set up to record it (you need to change your favorite list to "All channels")


----------



## Movieman

Thank you to everyone that has kept this thread updated. I know that I have learned a lot from reading this. I also just set my DVR. I cant wait though till it goes live and the channels star coming in.


----------



## Sixto

After liftoff tomorrow (Monday 12/28/2009) ... some key milestones ...

Assuming liftoff is 7:22pm ET ...



*Time*
|
*Launch Event*

|
07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation
|
07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation
|
07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation
|
07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation
|
07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition
|
07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown
|
08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition
|
08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown
|
10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition
|
11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown
|
11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison
|
11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition
|
11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown
|
04:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition
|
04:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown
|
*4:32:00am ET*
|
*D12 Separation*
And then we start the regular (orbital tracking) updates!


----------



## smiddy

Movieman said:


> Thank you to everyone that has kept this thread updated. I know that I have learned a lot from reading this. I also just set my DVR. I cant wait though till it goes live and the channels star coming in.


You're not alone on the learning part! Thanks folks for keeping this going. May we have a great launch tomorrow night!


----------



## HerntDawg

smiddy said:


> You're not alone on the learning part! Thanks folks for keeping this going. May we have a great launch tomorrow night!


I agree, let her fly!!!


----------



## doctor j

D-12 launch thread on NASASPACEFLIGHT Forum moved to live launch area:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19646.15

Doctor j


----------



## Richierich

If you don't see the channel then you need to add it into your Favorite Channel List or Select "Channels I Get" to see it but it will be not be a Highlighted Channel until they Activate it right prior to Launch.


----------



## cebbigh

Another note of thanks for the wealth of information on this thread. Unlike others here, "I ain't no rocket scientist." Not having anything informative to contribute I've not been cluttering the thread. But I've been checking progress daily. 

Great job and go D12!


----------



## waynebtx

Heres to a safe flight D12...


----------



## Sixto

Assuming it's ok with the mods, we may all want to hang out in the chat room tonight at 7pm ET.http://chat.dbstalk.com/​
ILS Launch Coverage:http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/​Hopefully also on DirecTV channel 577.

You may want to click on the ILS link (above) during the day today to verify that you're all setup.

It also seemed that for prior launches, the channel was "authorized", but it was just the event that wasn't posted until a short while before launch. Not so sure about 577 at the moment. 573 is authorized but doesn't show any programming, while 577 isn't authorized but has the launch. Will continue to monitor during the day.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Well the day has arrived - SixtoLameLefty Day. 

Uh....I mean D12 Launch Day. 

As others have indicated....I've set multiple HD DVRS for 7pm EST on Channel 577 to record the broadcast. 

That channel shows the launch now but will sit "dormant" until 7pm, and then get activated (as they have done in the past).

Happy travels D12.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well the day has arrived ...


Yep, been a long journey. We started talking about this after the February 2008 investor meeting.

Looking forward to tonight (finally!).


----------



## mcbeevee

Let's hope we hear the word "Nom-E-nul" a lot tonight!


----------



## dodge boy

mcbeevee said:


> Let's hope we hear the word "Nom-E-nul" a lot tonight!


Big puff of white smoke and radio silence and then an uh oh would not be good...


----------



## kevinturcotte

Anybody have any idea what the weather's supposed to be like over there tonight/tomorrow (Whatever time the launch is over there lol)?


----------



## Sixto

kevinturcotte said:


> Anybody have any idea what the weather's supposed to be like over there tonight/tomorrow (Whatever time the launch is over there lol)?


Baikonur: "There is a 0% chance of precipitation. Sunny. Cold. Temperature of -4°C. Winds SE 15km. Humidity will be 60% with a dewpoint of -11° and feels-like temperature of -9°C."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Baikonur: "There is a 0% chance of precipitation. Sunny. Cold. Temperature of -4°C. Winds SE 15km. Humidity will be 60% with a dewpoint of -11° and feels-like temperature of -9°C."


...or as they call it....another day in paradise....


----------



## hockey_puck

Sixto said:


> Baikonur: "There is a 0% chance of precipitation. Sunny. Cold. Temperature of -4°C. Winds SE 15km. Humidity will be 60% with a dewpoint of -11° and feels-like temperature of -9°C."


Umm, that's not cold for us tough Northerners......


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Just a note if you haven't tried this, I did a Google Earth search for "Baikonur Cosmodrome" and the location is a little off. Go north a tad until you find the three placeholders (one of which is the old Soviet space shuttle) and you've found it.


----------



## MrDad0330

Will this be a night time launch or will it be day time over there?


----------



## Sixto

MrDad0330 said:


> Will this be a night time launch or will it be day time over there?


7:22pm ET will be 6:22am local time in Baikonur. Sunrise is 9:27am local time.


----------



## tds4182

MrDad0330 said:


> Will this be a night time launch or will it be day time over there?


It should be 2 or 3 AM local time at the launch site, so a night time launch.


----------



## smiddy

Woowho!


----------



## bakers12

It's time to see if Orbitron still works on my PC. Can't wait to get a TLE to look up.

Now if I can only remember what it all means?


----------



## Sixto

bakers12 said:


> It's time to see if Orbitron still works on my PC. Can't wait to get a TLE to look up.
> 
> Now if I can only remember what it all means?


Yep, will be cranking up Orbitron here as well.

Post#1 has the TLE description and links to some info, and will be updated at each change.

Realtime Countdown:







until Launch.


----------



## TerryB

This sort of launch time could be properly referred to as "O Dark :30".

Go D12. Thanks guys!


TerryB


----------



## ncgbrown

I'm like you - Haven't opened Orbitron since the last one.

Is there an update that I can download via orbitron that has the D12 defined - or will we have to create it manually?


----------



## MrDad0330

I love going thru this again.. I remember learning so much for all u experts about orbits, maneuvers , physics...to me its fascinating so I look forward to furthing my education at dbs... lol


----------



## MrDad0330

Gesh..i didnt proof read my last comment did I....


----------



## gtheel

MrDad0330 said:


> Will this be a night time launch or will it be day time over there?


For time information, try:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=1967


----------



## MrDad0330

One question I do have. I am assuming they pull off that gray foam insulating blanket from the payload section. Does anyone know if they roll that gantry up to do that or is it just lifted off? I cant imagine that not being removed before lift off. Also what is the purpose or that blanket, is the spacecraft to be kept at a certain temperature?


----------



## Richierich

MrDad0330 said:


> Gesh..i didnt proof read my last comment did I....


You can always edit your comments and correct spelling like in manuvers.


----------



## MrDad0330

Rich..thanks..never knew i could do that..


----------



## LameLefty

MrDad0330 said:


> One question I do have. I am assuming they pull off that gray foam insulating blanket from the payload section. Does anyone know if they roll that gantry up to do that or is it just lifted off? I cant imagine that not being removed before lift off. Also what is the purpose or that blanket, is the spacecraft to be kept at a certain temperature?


The insulating blanket is removed prior to flight but I don't know how they prefer to do it. It's to keep the payload within the required environmental conditions (e.g., temperature).


----------



## Sixto

ncgbrown said:


> I'm like you - Haven't opened Orbitron since the last one.
> 
> Is there an update that I can download via orbitron that has the D12 defined - or will we have to create it manually?


There are some defined files for Orbitron. One contains geo-sats, but it will be a while before D12 appears.

We should know within the next day or so what the identification number will be for D12. Then manually enter each new TLE into Orbitron.


----------



## bb37

Stuart Sweet said:


> Just a note if you haven't tried this, I did a Google Earth search for "Baikonur Cosmodrome" and the location is a little off.


Desolate looking place. I'm glad I'm not a Russian rocket scientist. The Kennedy Space Center and Vandenburg AFB are paradise by comparison.


----------



## barryb

Just in case anyone missed this:


----------



## TerryB

Come on Barry,
The suspense is killing me.
TerryB


----------



## alnielsen

Sixto said:


> Baikonur: "There is a 0% chance of precipitation. Sunny. Cold. Temperature of -4°C. Winds SE 15km. Humidity will be 60% with a dewpoint of -11° and feels-like temperature of -9°C."


Kinda like the weather here. :lol:


----------



## barryb

TerryB said:


> Come on Barry,
> The suspense is killing me.
> TerryB


Hope you brought your lighter. Mine seems to be out of fluid.


----------



## LameLefty

Remember, even after a successful launch and separation from the three-stage Proton, the Briz-M upper stage has a five burn profile that will take HOURS to complete. It'll be tomorrow morning before we know D12 was inserted properly into its GTO and then it will be weeks of slow, careful maneuvering to get into position for operational testing.

Patience, grasshoppers!


----------



## barryb

LameLefty said:


> Remember, even after a successful launch and separation from the three-stage Proton, the Briz-M upper stage has a five burn profile that will take HOURS to complete. It'll be tomorrow morning before we know D12 was inserted properly into its GTO and then it will be weeks of slow, careful maneuvering to get into position for operational testing.


I have been practicing this maneuver on my Wii all morning Lefty. I think I have this under control.


----------



## bakers12

ncgbrown said:


> Is there an update that I can download via orbitron that has the D12 defined - or will we have to create it manually?


Once D12 gets into orbit, NORAD will assign an id number and we can can the latest TLE from Space-track.org for use in Orbitron.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Remember, even after a successful launch and separation from the three-stage Proton, the Briz-M upper stage has a five burn profile that will take HOURS to complete. It'll be tomorrow morning before we know D12 was inserted properly into its GTO and then it will be weeks of slow, careful maneuvering to get into position for operational testing.
> 
> Patience, grasshoppers!


That's a great reminder for everyone.

After launch ...



Sixto said:


> After liftoff tomorrow (Monday 12/28/2009) ... some key milestones ...
> 
> Assuming liftoff is 7:22pm ET ...
> 
> 
> 
> *Time*
> |
> *Launch Event*
> 
> |
> 07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation
> |
> 07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation
> |
> 07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation
> |
> 07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation
> |
> 07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition
> |
> 07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown
> |
> 08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition
> |
> 08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown
> |
> 10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition
> |
> 11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown
> |
> 11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison
> |
> 11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition
> |
> 11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown
> |
> 04:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition
> |
> 04:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown
> |
> *4:32:00am ET*
> |
> *D12 Separation*
> And then we start the regular (orbital tracking) updates!


----------



## tcusta00

barryb said:


> I have been practicing this maneuver on my Wii all morning Lefty. I think I have this under control.


!rolling !rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*NOM EEE NAL*

*(Just practicing)...*


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Good luck D12!


----------



## thelucky1

The day we have all been waiting for is finally here. Hats off the Sixto, LameLefty and the DBStalk staff for all the great information and for sharing your knowledge. Many THANKS!

Here's to D12!!!


----------



## bills

why are the russians lauching a directv satellite?


----------



## LameLefty

bills said:


> why are the russians lauching a directv satellite?


Because Directv paid ILS a few dozens of million dollars to do so.


----------



## bills

LameLefty said:


> Because Directv paid ILS a few dozens of million dollars to do so.


 ok..


----------



## Sixto

bills said:


> ok..


there's very few choices especially with SeaLaunch declaring bankruptcy.


----------



## FHSPSU67

T-6 hours.
Thanks to Sixto and LameLefty for all (and I do mean ALL) the information

Hope to see us all in the chatroom!


----------



## Button Pusher

thelucky1 said:


> The day we have all been waiting for is finally here. Hats off the Sixto, LameLefty and the DBStalk staff for all the great information and for sharing your knowledge. Many THANKS!
> 
> Here's to D12!!!


+1


----------



## LameLefty

According to Anik, fueling for the Proton has begun.


----------



## HoTat2

You know I understand the final desired orbit orientation at GTO is to have the perigee and apogee points coinciding with the ascending and descending nodes respectively at the equator.

The part I don't see is that according to ILS' description the orbit's ascending and descending nodes are also supposed to coincide with the earth's local noon and midnight meridians respectively as well. Or in other words the orbit's equatorial nodes are to be at right angles to the equatorial points of the day-night terminator of the planet.

But I don't see is that reflected in the ground track illustration for the upper stage in the mission profile after final injection into GTO at apogee.

Shouldn't the final injection point at GTO be at the apogee and the local midnight meridian on the descending node of the orbit?


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> Because Directv paid ILS a few dozens of million dollars to do so.


I know we've been down this road before, but with new people visiting the thread, maybe we should revisit this question.

Besides ILS, who has the capability to launch a commercial communications satellite into geosynchronous orbit? NASA, ESA (is the Arianne program still operating?), the Chinese, and???


----------



## dwrats_56

bb37 said:


> I know we've been down this road before, but with new people visiting the thread, maybe we should revisit this question.
> 
> Besides ILS, who has the capability to launch a commercial communications satellite into geosynchronous orbit? NASA, ESA (is the Arianne program still operating?), the Chinese, and???


I don't believe that NASA does commercial launching any more.


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> According to Anik, fueling for the Proton has begun.


2 things interesting to me.

1) ROSCOSMOS web site has an english version but the latest news is not available. At least 2 Directv-12 news updates dated today not available on english side.

2) Directv-12 blog on ILS launch site has been woefully tardy in updating news and pictures. I have followed most all of the ILS launches and this campaign has been the slowest. E-7 ,the last launch was sparse but this one has been even thinner.

The last Directv launch on ILS was quite robust on pictures,updates and concurrent reporting.

I hope the launch updates after the primary insertion go better.
The ILS Blog or Anik's reports on NASASpaceflight Forum are the only real sources for completion of the Breeze-M 5 burns and D-12 separation, scheduled some 9 hours after liftoff. The Launch video likely will not go more than 1 hour post liftoff, if even that long.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> I know we've been down this road before, but with new people visiting the thread, maybe we should revisit this question.
> 
> Besides ILS, who has the capability to launch a commercial communications satellite into geosynchronous orbit? NASA, ESA (is the Arianne program still operating?), the Chinese, and???


The players are ILS (using Proton rockets), Arianespace (using the Ariane V), United Launch Alliance (Atlas V - though the only commercial launch from them in recent times was an Intelsat payload that I believe has been leased for U.S. government use), Sea-Launch (using the Zenit booster, if they survive bankruptcy) along with their lower-payload Land-Launch subsidiary (which cannot carry the largest payloads like D10/11/12); the Chinese government could theoretically launch similar large-sized payloads on the Long March booster, but there are technology export issues as well as reliability concerns).


----------



## doctor j

bb37 said:


> I know we've been down this road before, but with new people visiting the thread, maybe we should revisit this question.
> 
> Besides ILS, who has the capability to launch a commercial communications satellite into geosynchronous orbit? NASA, ESA (is the Arianne program still operating?), the Chinese, and???


Arianespace quite active. 11 contracts signed in 2009.
7 ECA heavy launchs in 2009 (6 i think had 2 satellites.)

plan 7 or more Ariane5 ECA launches per year "for years to come".

Soyus launch capablility onboard for medium-heavy launches.

30 years of service this month and good reliability.

Doctor j


----------



## oldfantom

bb37 said:


> I know we've been down this road before, but with new people visiting the thread, maybe we should revisit this question.
> 
> Besides ILS, who has the capability to launch a commercial communications satellite into geosynchronous orbit? NASA, ESA (is the Arianne program still operating?), the Chinese, and???


Call me cynical, but when something like this is outsourced to a country like a 'stan in the former Soviet Union, I assume it is because of the ease of doing business in some locations. If they launched in California, the rocket would have to have less emissions than a Prius and a ten year environmental impact would have to be done to determine the impacts of the launch on the local nightcrawler population.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Political issues aside, the Baikonur Cosmodrome is supposed to be a top-notch launch site. Yes, it has very few environmental considerations, but it also has a great staff and facility. It's tempting to look down on it because it's in Kazakhstan, but it's operated by the Russian government who have more space experience than anyone.


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> Call me cynical, but when something like this is outsourced to a country like a 'stan in the former Soviet Union, I assume it is because of the ease of doing business in some locations. If they launched in California, the rocket would have to have less emissions than a Prius and a ten year environmental impact would have to be done to determine the impacts of the launch on the local nightcrawler population.


No. If they launched from California they'd have to worry about dropping stages all across the southeastern United States or, as the Air Force already does from Vandenberg AFB, launch into a southerly polar trajectory. Needless to say, that's not gonna work for a huge commercial comsat. :nono:

ULA DOES offer equatorial launches from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida with the Atlas V. However, even using Russian RD-180 engines (as the Atlas V does), the cost of commercial launches is just not very competitive.


----------



## Ed Campbell

No, I wouldn't use the word "cynical" to describe your opinion. Especially since launches still happen at Vandenberg AFB and several other locations around the U.S..


----------



## tuff bob

Ch. 577 is now available and is showing a DirecTV logo


----------



## Sixto

Lot's of new photos (with a few funnies ):http://www.ilslaunch.com/directv-12-gallery​Realtime Countdown:







until Launch


----------



## oldfantom

Ed Campbell said:


> No, I wouldn't use the word "cynical" to describe your opinion. Especially since launches still happen at Vandenberg AFB and several other locations around the U.S..


Commercial? The previous posts all seem to indicate that US launches tend to be sensitive or governmental. To bring it back to the topic, D* sent their satellite oversees because it was a trustworthy facility as Stewart said (you would have to save a lot of money to put a satellite in the hands of Bob's discount RoKet Shop). Scheduling might have been a concern. Logistics certainly make a difference. But at the end of the day, the work goes where the dollars are best spent. Without getting political, I still hold the opinion that this is an area where a US company can not realistically hope to compete openly. Nothing said so far - except for the possibility Stewart put forward about experience - makes me doubt that this is a purely economical decision.


----------



## Shades228

oldfantom said:


> Nothing said so far - except for the possibility Stewart put forward about experience - makes me doubt that this is a purely economical decision.


I would say it is purely economical but not because of the reason most people are thinking "cheap labor and regulations" but because of their success rate. In all reality billions of dollars are on the line here. There's the money so far spent and the money that they should generate because of it. You don't put that kind of money on the line and not go with the best chance of success.

Anyways I can't wait to see it lift off.


----------



## LameLefty

Shades228 said:


> I would say it is purely economical but not because of the reason most people are thinking "cheap labor and regulations" but because of their success rate. In all reality billions of dollars are on the line here. There's the money so far spent and the money that they should generate because of it. You don't put that kind of money on the line and not go with the best chance of success.
> 
> Anyways I can't wait to see it lift off.


Actually, Proton's recent success rate is only about 90% - good but certainly not perfect. That said, the simple fact is that the dollar DOES go further in Kazakhstan than it does in Cocoa Beach or French Guiana. It's all a trade-off.


----------



## dpeters11

And Kazakhstan doesn't seem to be a backwards country. They have one of the largest economies in Central Asia. They've also taken over all launches to the ISS following the shuttle. You simply send your rocket to someone with a good track record and experience. They happen to qualify.


----------



## Doug Brott

LameLefty said:


> Actually, Proton's recent success rate is only about 90% - good but certainly not perfect. That said, the simple fact is that the dollar DOES go further in Kazakhstan than it does in Cocoa Beach or French Guiana. It's all a trade-off.


As long as the Satellite doesn't go farther ..


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> And Kazakhstan doesn't seem to be a backwards country. They have one of the largest economies in Central Asia. They've also taken over all launches to the ISS following the shuttle.


CREWED launches, yes. After the shuttle retires, and until a replacement is fielded, all crews will arrive and depart via Soyuz launches from Baikonur. (*) However, a good deal of cargo mass will be carried by Europe's ATV (launched on Ariane V) and Japan's HTV (launched on the latest version of Japan's H-2 launch vehicle). Both orbital transport vehicles have been successfully flown on cargo delivery missions already.

(*) The wildcard here is something called COTS-D (now being called CCDev I believe): Commercial Orbital Transportation System phase D, crew delivery. Basically, the U.S. government is providing seed and development money to several companies to develop commercially-launched and -operated crew launch and recovery services to ISS. Whether these efforts pan out remains to be seen.


----------



## Sixto

Interesting that they're launching without the Special Temporary Authority (STA) for testing at 76° being approved by the FCC. 

Assuming it's no big deal, since it will be several weeks before D12 get there.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Interesting that they're launching without the Special Temporary Authority (STA) for testing at 76° being approved by the FCC.
> 
> Assuming it's no big deal, since it will be several weeks before D12 get there.


Yep, I've already checked the FCC for that paperwork a couple times today. :lol:


----------



## oldfantom

The economics of "Why Baikonur?" are a neat diversion in what I hope are the final hours before a FEW weeks of watching Sixto's TLE postings.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Interesting that they're launching without the Special Temporary Authority (STA) for testing at 76° being approved by the FCC.
> 
> Assuming it's no big deal, since it will be several weeks before D12 get there.


While I'm certainly not concerned about a successful STA grant for IOT of the main Ka-band payload at sometime post launch, but well in advanced of D12's arrival at the geostationary 76° slot.

I am curious whether the FCC will do the right thing and throw Spectrum-5's legal challenge of an STA grant for IOT of the RB-2A package out on its ear where it more than belongs before D12's arrival at its test slot as well.


----------



## Richierich

Hutchinshouse said:


> Good luck D12!


I hope they wrote "THE TRAVEL CHANNEL IN HD" on the side of the D12 so we can see it as it ascends into orbit!!!:lol:


----------



## bb37

oldfantom said:


> The economics of "Why Baikonur?" are a neat diversion...


Just trying to keep the crowd entertained while waiting for the big show to start!


----------



## Inches

richierich said:


> I hope they wrote "THE TRAVEL CHANNEL IN HD" on the side of the D12 so we can see it as it ascends into orbit!!!:lol:


AND others


----------



## fwlogue

Has anyone been able to remotely schedule this. I can not find it in the Iphone app and using m.directv.com I get Record did not start. A request to record this program has failed. Please try later.


----------



## HoTat2

richierich said:


> I hope they wrote "THE TRAVEL CHANNEL IN HD" on the side of the D12 so we can see it as it ascends into orbit!!!:lol:


Or more accurately on the "payload fairing" where the rest of the various autographs and comments are ...


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

richierich said:


> I hope they wrote "THE TRAVEL CHANNEL IN HD" on the side of the D12 so we can see it as it ascends into orbit!!!:lol:


Yeah thats the whole reason they spent millions of dollars and 2 years building D12, so Travel Channel fans could finally get their HD.:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Or more accurately on the "payload fairing" where the rest of the various autographs and comments are ...


And which gets unceremoniously dumped across the barren steppes mere minutes after launch . . . :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

bills said:


> why are the russians lauching a directv satellite?


Its not Russia, its Khahzakstan. you know, where Borat is from?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*all systems still *

*nom eee nal *


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

tuff bob said:


> Ch. 577 is now available and is showing a DirecTV logo


Indeed. just over 3 hours til launch!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tuff bob said:


> Ch. 577 is now available and is showing a DirecTV logo


Neat...using D10 or D11 to show D12's launch.


----------



## bobnielsen

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Its not Russia, its Khahzakstan. you know, where Borat is from?


It's a bit more complicated than that. From the ILS website:

ILS is an American company, headquartered in Reston, Va., a suburb of Washington, D.C. The majority shareholder is Khrunichev State Research and Production Space Center of Moscow. The Proton vehicle launches both commercial ILS missions and Russian government payloads from the Baikonur Cosmodrome, which is operated by the Russian Space Agency (Roscosmos) under lease from the Republic of Kazakhstan.


----------



## Richierich

HoTat2 said:


> Or more accurately on the "payload fairing" where the rest of the various autographs and comments are ...


Actually I saw them writing some comments on the Payload itself.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*DirecTV D-12 Satellite Launch:*

*DirecTV Coverage on Channel 577*

*T-Minus 3 Hours and Counting!*

*Online Video at this link:* * http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/*


----------



## Richierich

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yeah thats the whole reason they spent millions of dollars and 2 years building D12, so Travel Channel fans could finally get their HD.:lol:


That's what I figured so when they want an Extra $5 a month for it I shouldn't *****. :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Neat...using D10 or D11 to show D12's launch.


It's SD, shouldn't it be likely coming from the 101 satellite group?


----------



## LameLefty

richierich said:


> Actually I saw them writing some comments on the Payload itself.


All the pics on the ILS site show them writing on the fairing, not the satellite contained inside.


----------



## HoTat2

richierich said:


> Actually I saw them writing some comments on the Payload itself.


You mean on the satellite itself or Breeze-M?

I saw photos of various ILS personnel playfully autographing the payload fairing which encases them, but not earlier on D12 or the Breeze-M themselves...


----------



## Richierich

LL, when you said fairing I thought you meant that jacket around the Payload to keep it warm and toasty not the outer exterior.

I need to ZOOM IN and see if it says anything about The Travel Channel In HD.


----------



## ncgbrown

Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record. 

- may want to double check


----------



## Ed Campbell

Now, I'm really getting nervous.


----------



## Herdfan

dpeters11 said:


> And Kazakhstan doesn't seem to be a backwards country.


I guess you didn't see Borat? :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

ncgbrown said:


> Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record.
> 
> - may want to double check


Same thing just happened to me. I set it again but it still said not authorized although am I able to tune to the channel manually and a D* logo shows up.


----------



## Indiana627

ncgbrown said:


> Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record.


Same here - I was just going to let everyone know they may want to double check their To Do List and make sure the recording is still scheduled.


----------



## Sixto

ncgbrown said:


> Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record.
> 
> - may want to double check





Ed Campbell said:


> Now, I'm really getting nervous.


Yep, still not authorized. But channel seems to play fine.

Don't remember this authorization issue any previous time. 573 is authorized which is where D11 was.

Just slinged in and told it to record 577 anyway, will see if it works.

It's the same coverage from the ILS website, so all is good.

Realtime Countdown:







until Launch


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Official confirmation... the chatroom will be open during the launch. Thanks to Mr. Alsobrook for his participation.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Stuart Sweet said:


> Official confirmation... the chatroom will be open during the launch. Thanks to Mr. Alsobrook for his participation.


link please


----------



## Sixto

Stuart Sweet said:


> Official confirmation... the chatroom will be open during the launch. Thanks to Mr. Alsobrook for his participation.


Thank you!


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> link please


http://chat.dbstalk.com/ *<--- the place to be at 7pm ET*


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

I've added a news item to the front page... Let's meet up at about 7 ET in the chat room.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> http://chat.dbstalk.com/ *<--- the place to be at 7pm ET*


I'm there but nobody else is


----------



## dbmaven

Wait 2 hours (until 7PM) people will start to show up.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dbmaven said:


> Wait 2 hours (until 7PM) people will start to show up.


launch party!


----------



## barryb

Greg Alsobrook said:


> I've added a news item to the front page... Let's meet up at about 7 ET in the chat room.


I have been there for hours now Greg. I got the place all cleaned up and put some streamers up.

Hors d'oeuvres are being set up right now.


----------



## HoTat2

ncgbrown said:


> Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record.
> 
> - may want to double check


Wow ... hey thanks for the heads-up

Same here as well as the scheduled recording indeed disappeared from the To-Do list. Have again setup the recording with the same "Channel not authorized therefore may not record" advisory type message. So will definitely keep a close eye it.

Strange, the guide info is lit-up on channel 577 and you can tune to the channel and receive the DirecTV graphic, but the channel number itself is still grayed-out indicating no authorization.

It's like the channel is in some kind of semi-authorized limbo state at the moment.

Weird ...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

barryb said:


> I have been there for hours now Greg. I got the place all cleaned up and put some streamers up.
> 
> Hors d'oeuvres are being set up right now.


Excellent work sir! Hope the Champagne is still bubbling when we get there!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

HoTat2 said:


> Wow ... hey thanks for the heads-up
> 
> Same here as well as the scheduled recording indeed disappeared from the To-Do list. Have again setup the recording with the same "Channel not authorized therefore may not record" advisory type message. So will definitely keep a close eye it.
> 
> Strange, the guide info is lit-up on channel 577 and you can tune to the channel and receive the DirecTV graphic, but the channel number itself is still grayed-out indicating no authorization.
> 
> It's like the channel is in some kind of semi-authorized limbo state at the moment.
> 
> Weird ...


Same thing happens on RSN overflow channels. Authorized but nothing on the feed, just a logo.


----------



## Sixto

barryb said:


> I have been there for hours now Greg. I got the place all cleaned up and put some streamers up.
> 
> Hors d'oeuvres are being set up right now.


I'll be back by 6:30pm ET. Will bring the Beer and Doritos.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*DirecTV D-12 Satellite Launch:*

*DirecTV Coverage on Channel 577*

*T-Minus 2 Hours and Counting!*

*Online Video at this link:* * http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/*



Sixto said:


> http://chat.dbstalk.com/ *<--- DBSTalk CHAT ROOM OPEN TONIGHT - the place to be at 7pm ET*


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *DirecTV D-12 Satellite Launch:*
> 
> *DirecTV Coverage on Channel 577*
> 
> *T-Minus 2 Hours and Counting!*
> 
> *Online Video at this link:* * http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/*


I'm excited too but theres no need to yell


----------



## TBlazer07

Watching the "D12 Launch Video" listed in the first post is interesting. Looks like something from a movie. Rolling out in the snow and cranking up the launcher with a hand crank. :lol: Looks like it's from the movie "The Astronaut Farmer." Waiting for a guy to try to strike a match to light a fuse then run for cover. Sure hope the defrosters are working, looks mighty cold out there. A little different then Florida launches.


----------



## jefbal99

Greg Alsobrook said:


> Excellent work sir! Hope the Champagne is still bubbling when we get there!


I've got the deep fryer hot and ready to toss in the chicken wings, french fries, and onion rings.

Just trying to decide on the beverage to celebrate the launch...

Club and Ginger Ale, Dewers neat, or Disaronno and sour


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

jefbal99 said:


> I've got the deep fryer hot and ready to toss in the chicken wings, french fries, and onion rings.
> 
> Just trying to decide on the beverage to celebrate the launch...
> 
> Club and Ginger Ale, Dewers neat, or Disaronno and sour


I brought a case of Coca Cola for the non-drinkers.


----------



## rrrick8




----------



## Richierich

Barry, did you come in your RV?

I would like to see it. :lol:

I'll be in the chatroom tonight waiting for the launch.


----------



## barryb

richierich said:


> Barry, did you come in your RV?
> 
> I would like to see it. :lol:
> 
> I'll be in the chatroom tonight waiting for the launch.


Gosh I wish! It's just not "RV weather" out right now.


----------



## HoTat2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I brought a case of Coca Cola for the non-drinkers.


Yep ...

I'm headed out for some chips, buffalo wings (microwavable :lol, and drink for the big show ... Be back around 3:30 PST.

See you-all then.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I brought a case of Coca Cola for the non-drinkers.


No excitment (yelling??? you gotta be kidding )...

Now Coke?

Some party. :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No excitment (yelling??? you gotta be kidding )...
> 
> Now Coke?
> 
> Some party. :lol:


don't wanna bother the neighbors


----------



## HRJustin

so will channel 577 be available to everyone? I scheduled it to record at 7 on my DVR but it said it might not be available. I am going to be watching it on the website either way. It just seems strange that that channel is grayed out. I had to go in and add it to my favorites list.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

HRJustin said:


> so will channel 577 be available to everyone? I scheduled it to record at 7 on my DVR but it said it might not be available. I am going to be watching it on the website either way. It just seems strange that that channel is grayed out. I had to go in and add it to my favorites list.


Its already on if you tune to it manually, the logo anyway.


----------



## tsduke

HRJustin said:


> so will channel 577 be available to everyone? I scheduled it to record at 7 on my DVR but it said it might not be available. I am going to be watching it on the website either way. It just seems strange that that channel is grayed out. I had to go in and add it to my favorites list.


My recording I set yesterday is gone.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

HRJustin said:


> so will channel 577 be available to everyone? I scheduled it to record at 7 on my DVR but it said it might not be available. I am going to be watching it on the website either way. It just seems strange that that channel is grayed out. I had to go in and add it to my favorites list.


Directv website?


----------



## HRJustin

i have it on in my room hopefully it will record on the dvr in the living room. I gotta go cook dinner right now so ill go check it to make sure its going to record.


----------



## HRJustin

scottandregan said:


> Directv website?


no this website

http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/


----------



## Scott Kocourek

HRJustin said:


> no this website
> 
> http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/


Thanks


----------



## mobandit

Guys, it's just a stinkin' rocket launching a satellite that beams TV signals...this isn't the second coming!





OK, I'll be watching the launch, as well....


----------



## Richierich

mobandit said:


> Guys, it's just a stinkin' rocket launching a satellite that beams TV signals...this isn't the second coming!
> OK, I'll be watching the launch, as well....


This Ain't The Second Coming???....Well then I ain't gonna watch!!!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

mobandit said:


> Guys, it's just a stinkin' rocket launching a satellite that beams TV signals...this isn't the second coming!


But it is... the Second Coming of HD!

Honestly it could even be the third, fourth, or fifth, I really haven't kept track...


----------



## joshjr

ncgbrown said:


> Just a heads up to anyone who set the DVR - I set mine to record yesterday, even though it said 'not authorized'. I just got home from work today and I can now see 577 but the program is no longer set to record.
> 
> - may want to double check


Same thing happened to me. Good catch thanks.


----------



## Sixto

ILS feed is up with test bars:http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> don't wanna bother the neighbors


I can respect that....

Now whooop it up. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Ain't technology grand...

Slingbox window open with the HR21-200 here on Channel 577...with the ILS video right next to it.


----------



## Groundhog45

cebbigh said:


> Another note of thanks for the wealth of information on this thread. Unlike others here, "I ain't no rocket scientist." Not having anything informative to contribute I've not been cluttering the thread. But I've been checking progress daily.
> 
> Great job and go D12!


I agree. Thanks for all the great info. Now I'm ready to join a few thousand of my best friends on channel 577 to watch the launch.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Chatroom's open...


----------



## Scott Kocourek

Sixto said:


> ILS feed is up with test bars:http://www.ccistream.com/ils122809/​


Thanks to Sixto and all of the others for the fun reading and speculating. This has been very fun to follow.


----------



## doctor j

Just for documentation this afternoon's 101 TPN 2 PID download does show ch 577 active.
Was not there 24 hrs ago.

PTNW 577 8|00	0050	0051 tvtnw577.ch

TPN 8 on 101 sats

NOW, lets go watch it boys!!!
Doctor j


----------



## slimoli

It's live on ch 577 now..


----------



## IndyMichael

Stuart Sweet said:


> Chatroom's open...


Must be busy, I can't get in.


----------



## vfr781rider

That sucker looks HUGE!


----------



## davemayo

My receiver says it is not authorized to record the launch.


----------



## Movieman

davemayo said:


> My receiver says it is not authorized to record the launch.


Looks like we have the same issue. 

EDIT: I just set a manual record through the menu of the HR23 and it didnt block it. We will see it takes.


----------



## texasmoose

Currently watching the link @ work, my luck i'll get a call @ launch............and 1 of my accts is D*, watch it'll be a D* participant checking in on their 401k @ time of launch, wouldn't that be ironic?!?!


----------



## RobertY

7 Min! recording.


----------



## davemayo

Movieman said:


> Looks like we have the same issue.


Set it up as a manual record. That worked for me.


----------



## joshjr

Movieman said:


> Looks like we have the same issue.


Set a manual recording of it and it will work fine. I think there is even a re-airing of it at 7pm central right after this airing is over.


----------



## texasmoose

45 seconds!


----------



## texasmoose

*LIFTOFF !!!*


----------



## Sixto

Looking good so far!


----------



## texasmoose

Sixto said:


> Looking good so far!


Thanks for all your hardwork *SIXTO!!!*:hurah:


----------



## bjlc

it looks good..

did we get any new HD CHANNELS YET? tomorrow? next week?


----------



## dave29

Awesome!!


----------



## texasmoose

bjlc said:


> it looks good..
> 
> did we get any new HD CHANNELS YET? tomorrow? next week?


you're kidding right??!?!?!:nono2:


----------



## Jared701

bjlc said:


> it looks good..
> 
> did we get any new HD CHANNELS YET? tomorrow? next week?


I heard they are supposed to have it up with all HBOs in high def in the next 10 days.


----------



## texasmoose

Jared701 said:


> I heard they are supposed to have it up with all HBOs in high def in the next 10 days.


actually, if you had read sixto's notes, it'll be 90-120 days out for the new HD channels to be rolled out. and that's taking into account there are no delays/tech issues.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

bjlc said:


> it looks good..
> 
> did we get any new HD CHANNELS YET? tomorrow? next week?


"soon"


----------



## Shades228

texasmoose said:


> actually, if you had read sixto's notes, it'll be 90-120 days out for the new HD channels to be rolled out.


Actually it will be that long before D12 is in GSO for operation. However new channels could come prior to as long as testing is good and they can determine that there are not any problems with the D12.


----------



## EagleClaw

I agree 110%, was fun to follow and chat was great along with the launch.

Cheers you guys!



scottandregan said:


> Thanks to Sixto and all of the others for the fun reading and speculating. This has been very fun to follow.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Great launch, great coverage, great historical video.....fly D12 fly...


----------



## Sixto

*Time*
|
*Launch Event*
|
*Status*

|
07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition|
|
08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown|
|
10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition
|
11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown
|
11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison
|
11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition
|
11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown
|
04:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition
|
04:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown
|
*4:32:00am ET*
|
*D12 Separation*


----------



## bjlc

so when do we start the new thread? the Directv 13 launch thread? tomorrow? next week? 

come on.. this one is up and gone.. lets get on that new satellite..


----------



## LameLefty

The first of the five upper stage burns is complete - we'll know more as the evening progresses but spacecraft separation won't be until more than 9 hours after launch.


----------



## sore_bluto

bjlc said:


> so when do we start the new thread? the Directv 13 launch thread? tomorrow? next week?
> 
> come on.. this one is up and gone.. lets get on that new satellite..


They are going to call it D14. Must be superstitious.


----------



## texasmoose

Shades228 said:


> Actually it will be that long before D12 is in GSO for operation. However new channels could come prior to as long as testing is good and they can determine that there are not any problems with the D12.


New channels could come prior to GSO? That's not gonna happen.


----------



## jefbal99

sore_bluto said:


> They are going to call it D14. Must be superstitious.


Is there a contract with Boeing for the next round of Birds? These will get 15 yrs, won't they?


----------



## sore_bluto

texasmoose said:


> New channels could come prior to GSO? That's not gonna happen.


I agree it is not likely, but I think the thinking here is once NFLST is done, a few HD channels could be added if everything checks out with D12.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

texasmoose said:


> New channels could come prior to GSO? That's not gonna happen.


he means on D10 and D11 after NFLST is over. I'm crossing my fingers.


----------



## jefbal99

texasmoose said:


> New channels could come prior to GSO? That's not gonna happen.


They could use the reserved space on d10/d11 that is for sunday ticket, soon


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> *Time*
> |
> *Launch Event*
> |
> *Status*
> 
> |
> 07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown|
> *Complete*
> 
> |
> 08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition|
> |
> 08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown|
> |
> 10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition
> |
> 11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown
> |
> 11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison
> |
> 11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition
> |
> 11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown
> |
> 03:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition
> |
> 03:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown
> |
> *4:32:00am ET*
> |
> *D12 Separation*


FOR those pessimists asking" AMC-14 failed at Breeze-M Burn #2

http://www.ilslaunch.com/news-031408

Doctor j


----------



## sore_bluto

jefbal99 said:


> Is there a contract with Boeing for the next round of Birds? These will get 15 yrs, won't they?


I just heard one of the executives call the "next satellite" Directv 14 during the broadcast and assumed.


----------



## texasmoose

jefbal99 said:


> They could use the reserved space on d10/d11 that is for sunday ticket, soon


I apologize I didn't take that into account. Yes, we can only hope


----------



## Sixto

The DirecTV-12 Launch:


----------



## PackCat

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Same thing just happened to me. Hopefully it records though. At least the online feed will be watchable later.


HR22 says unauthorized to record, but the DVR will allow you to play/rewind for the 1.5 hour cycle.

Although the official final destination is longitude 102.8°W, does anyone have the latitude? I know this is slightly east of Denver, but I'm guessing the latitude is closer to the Canadian border, like in the high 40's°N.


----------



## texasmoose

Sixto said:


> The DirecTV-12 Launch:


Thanks again, for giving us the replay on the $$$$ Shot!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

PackCat said:


> HR22 says unauthorized to record, but the DVR will allow you to play/rewind for the 1.5 hour cycle.
> 
> Although the official final destination is longitude 102.8°W, does anyone have the latitude? I know this is slightly east of Denver, but I'm guessing the latitude is closer to the Canadian border, like in the high 40's°N.


My HR22 recorded the whole thing to my hard drive as planned


----------



## LameLefty

sore_bluto said:


> They are going to call it D14. Must be superstitious.





jefbal99 said:


> Is there a contract with Boeing for the next round of Birds? These will get 15 yrs, won't they?





sore_bluto said:


> I just heard one of the executives call the "next satellite" Directv 14 during the broadcast and assumed.


At one time there were FCC authorizations and plans to launch a "Directv 13" satellite (FCC call sign S2693, planned to go to 110W). However, Directv changed plans in the last few years (and I doubt it really had much to do wuth superstition, given that they got as far as having authorization for it at one time  ).

I strongly suspect that there is at least a contract option for another Boeing 702 satellite (probably several in fact, for the RB-xx BSS band payloads that Directv now has authorizations for). However, I think they don't yet have formal contracts or if they do they're relatively recent, as they will have to be discussed in SEC filings and investor presentations and we've yet seen none of that.

So in sum, I think "Directv 14, 15 and 16" will probably be the common names for the FCC callsigns S2711 (RB-1 at 99W), S2712 (RB-2 at 103W, assuming the FCC/ITU thing gets worked out  ) and S2243 (RB-4 at 110W).


----------



## P Smith

PackCat said:


> ...
> Although the official final destination is longitude 102.8°W, does anyone have the latitude? I know this is slightly east of Denver, but I'm guessing the latitude is closer to the Canadian border, like in the high 40's°N.


All those normal functioning FSS/BSS/DSS/DTH GSO objects should stay on equatorial orbit, ie 0 degree.


----------



## FHSPSU67

PackCat said:


> Although the official final destination is longitude 102.8°W, does anyone have the latitude? I know this is slightly east of Denver, but I'm guessing the latitude is closer to the Canadian border, like in the high 40's°N.


Equator (where it's going) is zero degees latitude.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> All those normal functioning FSS/BSS/DSS/DTH GSO objects should stay on equatorial orbit, ie 0 degree.


In fact, by definition, an object cannot be "geostationary" if it's not an equatorial orbit with an inclination of very, very close to 0º. It can have an orbital period of exactly one day, but if it's inclined it will appear to wobble, as seen from the ground. Not good for use with small, fixed receiving dishes.


----------



## Sixto

next burn within 5 minutes ...


----------



## doctor j

sore_bluto said:


> They are going to call it D14. Must be superstitious.


D-13 was authorized then discontinued.
I think Tom Robertson has an info post on it.
Next bird will be D-14.
No word yet on frequency payload:

KU/KA/BSS or likely some combination of ALL!

Doctor j


----------



## HoTat2

Scheduled 2nd Breeze-M burn should be firing now;

A long 17:17 min burn that will occur from about the south of Brazil all the way across the Atlantic ocean to somewhere over Algeria in Northwest Africa to inject the orbital unit into it's intermediate orbit ...


----------



## chevyguy559

I missed it live, but watching the replay right now....the news anchor girl is kinda cute


----------



## BK89

I set this to record last week - came home from work tonight and the launch did not record. It was canceled in the playlist and the guide shows it as a channel not received even though it is turned on. 

I am kind of bummed. Hopefully the actual satellite will be better handled than the coverage. :nono2:


----------



## BigJ52

I'm sure the answer is somewhere in this thread but don't feel like looking through 60+ pages. So my question is when can we expect to see the next new HD channel added to our channel lineup once D12 is up and running? Is by March too early?


----------



## Sixto

BigJ52 said:


> I'm sure the answer is somewhere in this thread but don't feel like looking through 60+ pages. So my question is when can we expect to see the next new HD channel added to our channel lineup once D12 is up and running? Is by March too early?


Post#1.


----------



## FHSPSU67

BigJ52 said:


> I'm sure the answer is somewhere in this thread but don't feel like looking through 60+ pages. So my question is when can we expect to see the next new HD channel added to our channel lineup once D12 is up and running? Is by March too early?


Yes, March is too early for D12. But a few new HD channels might be possible from D10-11 once D12 is successful and NFL ST channels are available.


----------



## ActiveHDdave

Just saw the tape. Hail to the Russians for more HD.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

FHSPSU67 said:


> Yes, March is too early for D12. But a few new HD channels might be possible from D10-11 once D12 is successful and NFL ST channels are available.


NFLST is over next week. Maybe we'll get some new HD to ring in the new year?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HoTat2 said:


> Scheduled 2nd Breeze-M burn should be firing now;
> 
> A long 17:17 min burn that will occur from about the south of Brazil all the way across the Atlantic ocean to somewhere over Algeria in Northwest Africa to inject the orbital unit into it's intermediate orbit ...


Should be finished now....

Updates likely pending any time now...


----------



## Alan Gordon

I wanted to be in the chat room during launch, but at least I got to watch the launch live!

*Now bring on the HD (and HD-LIL)!! *​
~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Should be finished now....
> 
> Updates likely pending any time now...


I'm refreshing the blog like crazy, but nothing yet


----------



## HoTat2

Well the second Breeze-M burn should have long shut down by now, but I suppose it's still out of range of Russian western tracking stations.

So... the wait continues....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HoTat2 said:


> Well the second Breeze-M burn should have long shut down by now, but I suppose it's still out of range of Russian western tracking stations.
> 
> So... the wait continues....


Supposedly the wait was 1 hour for regaining the signal...so the wait should not be too long now for another update....


----------



## bamaweather

Update!

http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-blog

As the Breeze M upper stage of our Proton M rocket continues
its climb into space with the DTV 12 satellite, we have
received confirmation that the 2nd burn of the upper stage
occurred and shut down as scheduled.


----------



## thelucky1

Posted by ILS Communications Team, 9:03 p.m. EST on 28 December 2009

As the Breeze M upper stage of our Proton M rocket continues its climb into space with the DTV 12 satellite, we have received confirmation that the 2nd burn of the upper stage occurred and shut down as scheduled.

The next events are scheduled for about 2 hours from now. The Breeze M upper stage will ignite for a 3rd time and burn for approximately 12 minutes; after that the additional propellant tank will be jettisoned, and the 4th burn will start and complete. All this will happen in a span of almost 20 minutes while the vehicle is again out of range of a ground station. We should reacquire the vehicle shortly after the 4th burn ends.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

All systems *NOM EE NAL*... 

So far...all is going perfectly according to plan.


----------



## David MacLeod

BK89 said:


> I set this to record last week - came home from work tonight and the launch did not record. It was canceled in the playlist and the guide shows it as a channel not received even though it is turned on.
> 
> I am kind of bummed. Hopefully the actual satellite will be better handled than the coverage. :nono2:


it would not let me record it while I was watching it. I could trickplay but no recording.
2 different dvrs' were tried to make sure.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Coca Cola Kid said:


> NFLST is over next week. Maybe we'll get some new HD to ring in the new year?


Yep, we can hope, but there's always the negotiations (I also hope negotiations have already been completed).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

David MacLeod said:


> it would not let me record it while I was watching it. I could trickplay but no recording.


Since the channel was not active until 3 minutes before the broadcast...a scheduled manual recording is the only way it would work. Got it here on my HR20-700. Sorry you couldn't get it.

Note that it will be replayed on Channel 577....so you may want to try another manual recording.


----------



## Sixto

you guys are quick  thanks for the help.

post#1 has been re-organized a bit ... still have some more work to do as we begin to track the orbital updates.


----------



## doctor j

bamaweather said:


> Update!
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-blog
> 
> As the Breeze M upper stage of our Proton M rocket continues
> its climb into space with the DTV 12 satellite, we have
> received confirmation that the 2nd burn of the upper stage
> occurred and shut down as scheduled.


beat me to it!
Great news!!!\Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since the channel was not active until 3 minutes before the broadcast...a scheduled manual recording is the only way it would work. Got it here on my HR20-700. Sorry you couldn't get it.
> 
> Note that it will be replayed on Channel 577....so you may want to try another manual recording.


Or just check YouTube.


----------



## bamaweather

Yeah I just hope we don't crash their poor blog hitting refresh over and over. 

It would be nice if they had a Twitter feed I could add. Would make life easier.


----------



## David MacLeod

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since the channel was not active until 3 minutes before the broadcast...a scheduled manual recording is the only way it would work. Got it here on my HR20-700. Sorry you couldn't get it.
> 
> Note that it will be replayed on Channel 577....so you may want to try another manual recording.


577 was what I was watching live and I got the not authorized to record message every time I tried.
I did not schedule, did not know channel until 15 min before 
I will look into setting up a manual maybe, not that big a deal to me.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since the channel was not active until 3 minutes before the broadcast...a scheduled manual recording is the only way it would work. Got it here on my HR20-700. Sorry you couldn't get it.
> 
> Note that it will be replayed on Channel 577....so you may want to try another manual recording.


One of my scheduled recordings worked


----------



## Scott Kocourek

I had 1 HR22-100 that would not allow recording, and 1 HR22-100 that recorded, the one that did gave me a prompt that said you are not authorized to this channel do you still want to try to record(or something like that) and I chose yes. It recorded. The other just said I was not authorized to record.


----------



## HoTat2

jefbal99 said:


> One of my scheduled recordings worked


+1 here as well. Don't really know what to say about the problems others had recording this.

Initially their was a problem when I scheduled my HR21-200 to record the launch yesterday it deleted for some reason as noted by me and others earlier. But I setup the recording again some 2 hours before the ILS telecast it recorded it without a hitch.


----------



## jefbal99

scottandregan said:


> I had 1 HR22-100 that would not allow recording, and 1 HR22-100 that recorded, the one that did gave me a prompt that said you are not authorized to this channel do you still want to try to record(or something like that) and I chose yes. It recorded. The other just said I was not authorized to record.


Mine was an HR22-100 as well that worked. I got the same message, just scheduled it anyway.


----------



## Christopher Gould

i set both the 6pm and 7pm to record 6pm didnt but the 7pm one did


----------



## Davenlr

Mine didnt record either. Luckily, I was home to watch it live.


----------



## joshjr

David MacLeod said:


> it would not let me record it while I was watching it. I could trickplay but no recording.
> 2 different dvrs' were tried to make sure.


Thats how it works on unauthorized channels. If you hit record once the program has started it wont let you record it unless you set a manual recording. This happened alot when they open up DNS channels that should not be on.


----------



## bamaweather

3rd burn should be underway. Lots of stuff going to happen over the next several minutes.


----------



## xmguy

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yeah thats the whole reason they spent millions of dollars and 2 years building D12, so Travel Channel fans could finally get their HD.:lol:


Yes without it being on the HD Xtra package to get them!


----------



## bamaweather

w00t!

We have confirmed that the Breeze M upper stage has successfully completed its 3rd & 4th burns, as well as jettisoning its additional propellant tank. The vehicle is now in a 5-hour coast period, during which we will have nothing to report. The 5th burn is scheduled to start around 4:13 a.m. EST, or 09:13 GMT. Separation of the DTV 12 spacecraft is scheduled to follow the 5th burn completion by about 12 minutes.

http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-third-and-fourth-completion/


----------



## ATARI

Sorry I'm late to the party -- just finished watching the recording of the launch -- I went to see AVATAR this evening.


----------



## cdizzy

+ DTV 12 Third and Fourth Completion
Posted by ILS Communications Team, 11:27 p.m. EST on 28 December 2009 | 0 Comments
We have confirmed that the Breeze M upper stage has successfully completed its 3rd & 4th burns, as well as jettisoning its additional propellant tank. The vehicle is now in a 5-hour coast period, during which we will have nothing to report. The 5th burn is scheduled to start around 4:13 a.m. EST, or 09:13 GMT. Separation of the DTV 12 spacecraft is scheduled to follow the 5th burn completion by about 12 minutes.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

cdizzy said:


> + DTV 12 Third and Fourth Completion
> Posted by ILS Communications Team, 11:27 p.m. EST on 28 December 2009 | 0 Comments
> We have confirmed that the Breeze M upper stage has successfully completed its 3rd & 4th burns, as well as jettisoning its additional propellant tank. The vehicle is now in a 5-hour coast period, during which we will have nothing to report. The 5th burn is scheduled to start around 4:13 a.m. EST, or 09:13 GMT. Separation of the DTV 12 spacecraft is scheduled to follow the 5th burn completion by about 12 minutes.


I just saw that.

I guess Sixto went to bed.


----------



## EVAC41

Did anyone hear if the launch was successful?


----------



## Blurayfan

It's nice to see DirecTV-12 launch. 2010 should be a great year for more HD from DirecTV.


----------



## Blurayfan

EVAC41 said:


> Did anyone hear if the launch was successful?


The launch was successful.
http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-third-and-fourth-burn-completion


----------



## ejjames

With all this great news about D12 and the anticipation of more HD, it sure makes those price increases easier to swallow!


----------



## xylo

DVDKingdom said:


> The launch was successful.
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-third-and-fourth-burn-completion


They have one burn + detach to go. Of the major failures of the Proton M/Breeze M, most of the failures have happened during the Breeze burns (AMC 14 during burn 2, Arabsat 4A during burn 4, etc). It's not over yet, but things are looking optimistically good for the lift portion of the mission being successful.

After that, cross the fingers for functional sat/tests. A number of things to pass here -- from the satellite "unfolding" successfully, functional testing, etc.


----------



## Maleman

I have been lurking in this thread and most of its quite technical. I did watch the launch and it really is quite a HUGE project and lots of $$$$$$.

No clear sailing yet? I guess their is still lots left before we can actually say it will be operational and successful?

Thanks


----------



## Sixto

xylo said:


> They have one burn + detach to go. Of the major failures of the Proton M/Breeze M, most of the failures have happened during the Breeze burns (AMC 14 during burn 2, Arabsat 4A during burn 4, etc). It's not over yet, but things are looking optimistically good for the lift portion of the mission being successful.
> 
> After that, cross the fingers for functional sat/tests. A number of things to pass here -- from the satellite "unfolding" successfully, functional testing, etc.


All good info.

Few more steps to go ...



*Time*
|
*Launch Event*
|
*Status*

|
07:24:00pm ET|1st/2nd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:26pm ET|2nd/3rd Stage Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:27:48pm ET|Payload Fairing (PLF) Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:31:36pm ET|3rd Stage/Breeze M Separation|
*Complete*

|
07:33:50pm ET|1st Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
07:37:51pm ET|1st Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
08:27:58pm ET|2nd Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
08:45:15pm ET|2nd Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
10:48:45pm ET|3rd Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
11:00:14pm ET|3rd Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
11:01:04pm ET|APT Jettison|
*Complete*

|
11:02:31pm ET|4th Burn Ignition|
*Complete*

|
11:08:16pm ET|4th Burn Shutdown|
*Complete*

|
04:13:25am ET|5th Burn Ignition
|
04:19:43am ET|5th Burn Shutdown
|
*4:32:00am ET*
|
*D12 Separation*


----------



## Sixto

Maleman said:


> I have been lurking in this thread and most of its quite technical. I did watch the launch and it really is quite a HUGE project and lots of $$$$$$.
> 
> No clear sailing yet? I guess their is still lots left before we can actually say it will be operational and successful?
> 
> Thanks


Yep, just one more burn then separation, then the testing.

Post#1 has the testing details.


----------



## AllenE

ILS site reporting completion of 5th burn.


----------



## hyde76

ILS is reporting a successful mission. Yay!

+ DTV 12 Mission Successful!
Posted by ILS Communications Team, 4:40 a.m. EST on 29 December 2009 | 0 Comments

We have had a successful mission with the Proton M Breeze M
rocket, carrying the DTV 12 satellite built by Boeing Space
& Intelligence Systems for DIRECTV. We have had confirmation
that the satellite separated from the vehicle on schedule at
4:32 a.m. EST, or 09:32 GMT, 9 hours and 10 minutes after
liftoff.

Everything occurred as planned with ignition, shutdown and separation of the Proton’s first three stages. Then the Breeze M upper stage with the satellite continued the mission, igniting five times, and then releasing the satellite into transfer orbit.


----------



## Sackchamp56

hyde76 said:


> ILS is reporting a successful mission. Yay!
> 
> + DTV 12 Mission Successful!
> Posted by ILS Communications Team, 4:40 a.m. EST on 29 December 2009 | 0 Comments
> 
> We have had a successful mission with the Proton M Breeze M
> rocket, carrying the DTV 12 satellite built by Boeing Space
> & Intelligence Systems for DIRECTV. We have had confirmation
> that the satellite separated from the vehicle on schedule at
> 4:32 a.m. EST, or 09:32 GMT, 9 hours and 10 minutes after
> liftoff.
> 
> Everything occurred as planned with ignition, shutdown and separation of the Proton's first three stages. Then the Breeze M upper stage with the satellite continued the mission, igniting five times, and then releasing the satellite into transfer orbit.


Sweet! Now the agonizing wait begins.


----------



## betterdan

Good to hear everything went well.


----------



## Dolly

Since all of this is way over my head I had just stuck to reading the 1st post. But I just had to come in and say I'm glad the launch went well :sunsmile: Now if all the other testing, etc., goes well it will mean more HD :sunsmile: However, while getting to this thread I noticed a thread about price increases  Someone has to pay for all the money for D12 so I guess it is us


----------



## RAD

In the press release from DirecTV at http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=433162 they say:

_"DIRECTV 12, the eleventh owned-and-operated satellite in the DIRECTV fleet, will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 102.8 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year."_

Now we have to see what their defintion lf early is


----------



## David MacLeod

RAD said:


> <snip>
> 
> Now we have to see what their defintion lf early is


April 1, 2010 

gotcha..april fool


----------



## joed32

Dolly said:


> Since all of this is way over my head I had just stuck to reading the 1st post. But I just had to come in and say I'm glad the launch went well :sunsmile: Now if all the other testing, etc., goes well it will mean more HD :sunsmile: However, while getting to this thread I noticed a thread about price increases  Someone has to pay for all the money for D12 so I guess it is us


There is a price increase every year in March.


----------



## jefbal99

joed32 said:


> There is a price increase every year in March.


It's in Feb this year.

With the Press Release saying Q2, that's April at the earliest. I foresee a very slow rise to GSO, followed by extended testing at 76 for BSS stuff.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sackchamp56 said:


> Sweet! Now the agonizing wait begins.


Sweet indeed.

The agonizing wait is to get to this point...just ask any Dish service follower who watched one of their satellites fail to reach orbit properly and die a quick death.

A couple more months before D12 activation is nothing in comparison... knowing that its up there safe and secure.

I'm more than confident that this small amount of time time will pass quickly via hundreds (or thousands) of anticipation posts, speculating about the next use of this 50% growth in overall broadcast bandwidth. 

Continued thanks to Sixto and LameLefty for their excellent sharing of information on D12 - I almost feel like sending in those 3 cereal boxtops I have here to get my Rocket Scientist badge.


----------



## LameLefty

Always nice to wake up to good news.


----------



## ncgbrown

How long does it typically take to get the first TLE?


----------



## jefbal99

ncgbrown said:


> How long does it typically take to get the first TLE?


Watch the first post or the latest posts in this thread, it will be there


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Always nice to wake up to good news.


Go rattle Sixto's cage and tell him he needs to update his first post....:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## doctor j

BREEZE-M DEB (TANK) 
1 36133U 09075C 09363.16571104 -.00000189 00000-0 00000+0 0 15
2 36133 046.0284 099.5466 5299365 352.7762 001.8858 05.11559125 06 
OBJECT A 
1 36131U 09075A 09363.16574568 -.00000150 00000-0 00000+0 0 18
2 36131 045.5191 099.1525 7219992 359.8876 359.8021 02.26808567 09 
BREEZE-M DEB (TANK) 
1 36133U 09075C 09363.36116943 .00036927 00000-0 79329-2 0 25
2 36133 046.0465 099.3968 5298696 352.9332 001.8742 05.11608567 11 

object A is D-12

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Go rattle Sixto's cage and tell him he needs to update his first post....:lol::lol::lol:


He's out of town traveling with family this week, I think. And besides, he was still posting in this threat until after midnight - let the man sleep.


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sweet indeed.
> 
> The agonizing wait is to get to this point...just ask any Dish service follower who watched one of their satellites fail to reach orbit properly and die a quick death.
> 
> A couple more months before D12 activation is nothing in comparison... knowing that its up there safe and secure.
> 
> I'm more than confident that this small amount of time time will pass quickly via hundreds (or thousands) of anticipation posts, speculating about the next use of this 50% growth in overall broadcast bandwidth.
> 
> Continued thanks to Sixto and LameLefty for their excellent sharing of information on D12 - I almost feel like sending in those 3 cereal boxtops I have here to get my Rocket Scientist badge.


:biggthump+1


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Sooo true. Glad to wake-up and see it was a success....up to this point


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Nice...D12 last night from the ILS website. The launch video is there for replay as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> He's out of town traveling with family this week, I think. And besides, he was still posting in this threat until after midnight - let the man sleep.


:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah....I knew that...I think he was doing the chat room last night from his laptop in the hotel room.

I thought there was no sleep in the rocket and satellite businesses...:lol:


----------



## Indiana627

When will D12 call home for the first time to let Boeing and D* know it's OK? I think in past launches a station in South Africa picks up that signal first?


----------



## LameLefty

Just FYI, here's the current projected ground track for D12 as it begins the long climb to its testing slot. Note the crazy shapes and remember this is due to a number of things - primarily the very highly elliptical transfer orbit and its inclination above the equator. The satellite isn't really doing crazy turns in space but it is moving in a curved orbit as the earth continues to rotate beneath it.


----------



## RD in Fla

To a layperson like me (I'm just a lawyer), I am so impressed with the knowledge and effort that has been put forth here on dbstalk to keep us all informed. 

I will never cease to be amazed that man can build a rocket to send a satellite like D12 into outer space... and then it actually works (fingers crossed). To think a company like ILS does a half dozen or so of these a year is mind boggling. It is a world that I will never know or experience but because of people like LameLefty and Sixto I'm able to be a little closer to it. Thanks.


----------



## Smthkd

And the tracking begins! I love TLE's


----------



## MrDad0330

I just want to hear they have heard from D12..then ill feel better


----------



## MrDad0330

when will we know the the solar panels and everything else have deployed?


----------



## Sixto

Good morning!

All looks great ... will update ...


----------



## Sixto

MrDad0330 said:


> when will we know the the solar panels and everything else have deployed?


For testing at 76°. In 45-60 days.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Good morning!
> 
> All looks great ... will update ...


See.....I told you rocket and satellite people rarely sleep. 

Morning Sixto...and kudos to you and Lefty on the chat room information during the launch.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> See.....I told you rocket and satellite people rarely sleep.
> 
> Morning Sixto...and kudos to you and Lefty on the chat room information during the launch.


Thanks.

Nice press release from Romulo. The future is bright.

References "5" satellites more then once. Despite SW1 going to 1 channel recently, SW1 and SW2 looking to continue with a major role (hopefully).


----------



## syphix

doctor j said:


> BREEZE-M DEB (TANK)
> 1 36133U 09075C 09363.16571104 -.00000189 00000-0 00000+0 0 15
> 2 36133 046.0284 099.5466 5299365 352.7762 001.8858 05.11559125 06
> OBJECT A
> 1 36131U 09075A 09363.16574568 -.00000150 00000-0 00000+0 0 18
> 2 36131 045.5191 099.1525 7219992 359.8876 359.8021 02.26808567 09
> BREEZE-M DEB (TANK)
> 1 36133U 09075C 09363.36116943 .00036927 00000-0 79329-2 0 25
> 2 36133 046.0465 099.3968 5298696 352.9332 001.8742 05.11608567 11
> 
> object A is D-12
> 
> Doctor j


Thanks! But can we use the "code" code to help keep it in format for Orbitron?


Code:


DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A   09363.16574568 -.00000150  00000-0  00000+0 0    18
2 36131 045.5191 099.1525 7219992 359.8876 359.8021 02.26808567    09

Makes it a LOT easier to just copy and paste the info!


----------



## smiddy

Awesome!


----------



## Richierich

FANTASTIC!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> FANTASTIC!!!
> 
> Can't wait for more HD Channels like The Travel Channel in HD.


Warning...warning...that post may self-destruct in seconds.

Enough already with the TC HD.....:lol:


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Thanks! But can we use the "code" code to help keep it in format for Orbitron?
> Makes it a LOT easier to just copy and paste the info!


post#1 will always have it. Most of it there now.

Here's the standard format that will be used (same as D10/D11):


Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-29-2009 03:58:40
Orbit # at Epoch	0
Inclination		45.519
RA of A. Node		99.153
Eccentricity		0.7219992
Argument of Perigee	359.888
Revs per day		2.26808567
Period			10h 34m 53s (634.88 min)
Semi-major axis		24 470 km
Perigee x Apogee	424 x 35 759 km
Element number / age	1 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.7768° W
Lat			0.0012° S
Alt (km)		35 789.170


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Sixto, as always, very nicely done sir!


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Congrats D12 team! So far it seems by the book!


----------



## ATARI

ejjames said:


> With all this great news about D12 and the anticipation of more HD, it sure makes those price increases easier to swallow!


That's what I'm thinking.


----------



## smiddy

Hutchinshouse said:


> Congrats D12 team! So far it seems by the book!


I was amazed last night on how "by the book" it was all going. It was as if they drew it on paper and everything was "coming to life" as we watched it. Man, the coming weeks will be interesting to watch, but not to endure, since the majority of us will be looking for more offerings from DirecTV as is implied by such a momentous display of sending this satellite up for their consumers.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> post#1 will always have it. Most of it there now.


Again, awesome work y'all do here! You have a real passion for this and it shows!! THANKS ! ! ! ! !


----------



## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since the channel was not active until 3 minutes before the broadcast...a scheduled manual recording is the only way it would work. Got it here on my HR20-700. Sorry you couldn't get it.
> 
> Note that it will be replayed on Channel 577....so you may want to try another manual recording.


Scheduled my HR10-250 (remember those?) at about Noon yesterday and the entire hour recorded flawlessly...


----------



## Sim-X

Is there gonna be a reply at all? I forgot to record it - also channel and time plz (is it in hd?)


----------



## thelucky1

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Dec 29, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- As the DIRECTV 12 satellite soars into space following its successful launch today, DIRECTV customers will soon see a stellar lineup of new HD channels and movie choices.

When the satellite begins operations in the early second quarter of next year, it will be among a fleet of five powerful, HD satellites delivering an unprecedented array of programming and other services to households across America.

The new satellite will boost DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50 percent, to more than 200 HD channels, increase the number of local HD markets DIRECTV will serve and significantly expand movie choices on the DIRECTV Cinema and DIRECTV on Demand services. DIRECTV offers more than 130 HD channels today and delivers local HD programming to 138 markets, representing 92 percent of U.S. TV households.

DIRECTV 12, a Boeing 702 model satellite, lifted off on an International Launch Services Proton Breeze M vehicle at 4:22 p.m. PT yesterday from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan. Controllers at the ground station in Hartebeesthoek, South Africa have made contact with the satellite and confirmed that all systems are functioning properly. Video replays of the launch are available on directv.com.

"With the successful launch of our DIRECTV 12 satellite, we will have the capacity to dramatically expand HD and movie choices for our customers and further extend our content and technology leadership," said Romulo Pontual, DIRECTV's chief technology officer. "With a robust fleet of 11 satellites, including five spacecraft delivering HD programming, advanced transmission and set-top box technology, we are able to provide our customers with an unparalleled viewing experience and maintain a significant competitive advantage for many years to come."


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sim-X said:


> Is there gonna be a reply at all? I forgot to record it - also channel and time plz (is it in hd?)


Its replaying right now on 577, and its also available on the ILS website.


----------



## Sim-X

TheRatPatrol said:


> Its replaying right now on 577, and its also available on the ILS website.


Cool thanks, looks like they are replaying it all day. I have a hava set up and just checked my box here from work. It's grayed out in the guide but still comes in. It said it may not record but it let me shed it anyway so hopefully the dvr will record it.


----------



## Sixto

Here's a repeat of the comparison of the previous launches.

With D12 being at 424x35759 to start, it's almost identical to D10, which got to Geo in about 40 days.

D12 may not be the same, especially with the test location, it all depends on the plan for fuel and any other mission differences.



Sixto said:


> *Comparison of D10, Spaceway-1, and D11 Satellites during their move to geostationary:*
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]D11[/B]	[B]D11	D11
> [U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U][/B]
> 1	414	35813	18114	262	34097	17180	243	36067	18155
> 2	4919	35792	20356
> 3	4921	36526	20724	1061	34311	17686
> 4	4923	37127	21025	1058	34315	17687	463	36484	18474
> 6	8277	37105	22691	1067	37418	19243	463	38996	19730
> 7	17992	37082	27537				468	40742	20605
> 8	17994	37083	27539	1066	45481	23274	7392	40992	24192
> 10	31290	37120	34205	4538	45472	25005	7387	40988	24188
> 11	34206	37119	35663	10508	45520	28014
> 12	34100	37245	35673	21197	45466	33332	17363	41066	29215
> 13	34099	37129	35614	21197	45466	33332	17362	41064	29213
> 14	34088	37109	35599	25415	45483	35449
> 15	34085	37109	35597	25415	45470	35443
> 16	34088	37104	35596	26063	45474	35769	29456	41232	35344
> 17	34123	37099	35611	26097	45474	35786	29621	41228	35425
> 18	34179	37102	35641	26097	45475	35786	29621	41228	35425
> 19	34239	37050	35645	26098	45476	35787	29622	41228	35425
> 21	34449	37082	35766	26099	45480	35790	29723	41211	35467
> 24	34759	36906	35833	26218	45281	35750	30007	41174	35591
> 
> 26	35111	36572	35842	26371	45197	35784	30345	41133	35739
> 29	34923	36787	35855	26903	44722	35813	30615	41065	35840
> 31	35603	36177	35890	27317	44295	35806	30883	40871	35877
> 32	35644	36057	35851				31115	40623	35869
> 33	35630	36051	35841				31309	40411	35860
> 34	35663	35964	35814	27342	44275	35809	31369	40366	35868
> 35	35740	35919	35830	27738	43839	35789	31660	39991	35826
> 36	35737	35864	35801				31742	39996	35869
> 37	35739	35876	35808	28120	43443	35782	31867	39844	35856
> 38	35742	35809	35776	27991	43578	35785
> 
> 40	35784	35789	35787	28454	43005	35730	32302	39428	35865
> 41	35784	35787	35786				32285	39398	35842
> 42				28593	42985	35789	32598	39086	35842
> 45				29272	42297	35785	32976	38782	35879
> 47							33276	38434	35855
> 48				29769	41851	35810	33458	38289	35874
> 49				29918	41704	35811	33596	38136	35866
> 51				30054	41420	35737	33988	37798	35893
> 52				30271	41282	35777
> 53							34111	37722	35917
> 54							34365	37443	35904
> 56				30647	40926	35787	34423	37211	35817
> 57				30784	40711	35748	34610	37078	35844
> 58				30934	40566	35750	34793	36906	35850
> 60				30961	40636	35799
> 61							35206	36441	35824
> 
> 
> 62							35350	36345	35848
> 63							35496	36217	35857
> 64				31829	39718	35774	35600	36052	35826
> 65				31988	39539	35764	35739	35884	35812
> 66				32106	39528	35817	35747	35804	35776
> 67				32237	39403	35820	35786	35792	35789
> 69				32573	38958	35766	35785	35789	35787
> 70				32679	38954	35817	35786	35788	35787
> 72				33058	38503	35781
> 73				33136	38497	35817
> 74				33338	38206	35772
> 76				33642	37920	35781
> 77				33752	37796	35774
> 78				33226	38341	35784
> 80				33661	37942	35802
> 81				34201	37322	35762
> 83				34201	37307	35754
> 84				34713	36881	35797
> 85				34782	36735	35759
> 86				34999	36585	35792
> 87				34634	36970	35802
> 88				34847	36770	35809
> 92				34847	36770	35809
> 93				35763	35844	35804
> 97				35784	35790	35787
> 98				35783	35792	35788
> 99				35784	35790	35787
> 101				35784	35790	35787
> 102				35784	35790	35787
> 103				35784	35790	35787
> 105				35785	35789	35787


----------



## loudo

The press release is not to promising. All it talks about is new Cinema, Demand and new locals, nothing about adding new nationals. That is good if you buy PPV and still need locals, but for those who rely on packages and are looking for missing HD channels the competitors offer, it sounds like a let down. It does mention new HD channels but only talks about PPV and locals, no mention of any new national channels. I hope we will see some of the ones everyone has been asking for. 

Congrats DirecTV, on another new member to the satellite fleet.


----------



## adkinsjm

loudo said:


> The press release is not to promising. All it talks about is new Cinema, Demand and new locals, nothing about adding new nationals. That is good if you buy PPV and still need locals, but for those who rely on packages and are looking for missing HD channels the competitors offer, it sounds like a let down. It does mention new HD channels but only talks about PPV and locals, no mention of any new national channels. I hope we will see some of the ones everyone has been asking for.
> 
> Congrats DirecTV, on another new member to the satellite fleet.


Must not have read the release that closely. It mentions expanding HD and movie choices.


----------



## loudo

adkinsjm said:


> Must not have read the release that closely. It mentions expanding HD and movie choices.


Yes, I read HD, but it doesn't say anything about HD nationals, but mentions other types of HD.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I suggest you read the press release with a grain of salt. Do I think there will be enough new HDs to make you all happy? Yes, most of you anyway. But I don't think DIRECTV is going to carry the Basket Weaving Channel in HD when they think there's revenue out there to be gained from DIRECTV Cinema. A lot of you have Netflix subscriptions, I know I do. If DIRECTV Cinema can offer me a similar pricing structure and access to the new movies faster, I might do that instead. Maybe that's what some of that capacity will be used for. 

At any rate, it says it in most of these releases and probably in this one too, that forward-facing statements are not promises, they're projections. 

Mr. Pontual made a statement that was intended to please a lot of people. He and Mr. Mercer have a lot to crow about, after the successful launches of three of the most powerful communications satellites ever made. My thought is, congratulate them and don't worry too much about the fine print.


----------



## LameLefty

loudo said:


> Yes, I read HD, but it doesn't say anything about HD nationals, but mentions other types of HD.


Can you please save the doom and gloom for the "More National HD . . ." threads. This one is about D12.  Thanks. 

:backtotop


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Thanks, Lefty.


----------



## loudo

LameLefty said:


> Can you please save the doom and gloom for the "More National HD . . ." threads. This one is about D12. Thanks.
> 
> :backtotop


Sorry if you interpeted my post as "Doom and Gloom", I was only trying to say the release didn't say anything directly about new "Nationals", which I was looking for. I, like everyone else, am always happy to see new channels even if I don't care for them.

How is referring to a post about the new launch, which this thread is about, off topic?


----------



## Sixto

We can't understate how much there was to worry about prior to yesterday, after months of speculation about launch day.

Even when we knew the day, the actual satellite launch is a *high-risk* business. Lefty has stated several times the success rate and risks.

Any one of a multitude of issues could have occurred yesterday, but all looks good so far.

So now the only question is whether D12 survived the launch in optimal condition.

DirecTV will probably know in about 45-75 days from now. They'll have some data prior, but D12 really needs to spread it's wings and test everything.

But the risky part is behind us. It now is what it is. And hopefully all is well ...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

loudo,

Either way, let's get back to discussing the satellite and not the eventual content. As I said, the press release contained forward-facing statements which may or may not eventually prove true or accurate.

Thanks.


----------



## deuce01

Stuart Sweet said:


> A lot of you have Netflix subscriptions, I know I do. If DIRECTV Cinema can offer me a similar pricing structure and access to the new movies faster, I might do that instead. Maybe that's what some of that capacity will be used for.


Is there any indication that this is the direction that DIRECTV wants to go in? I'd drop my Netflix account (and remove PlayON) if I could get the same from DIRECTV at a competitive price.


----------



## MrDad0330

When will we know the solar panels are deployed...to me, thats one of the most important things to see first...


----------



## LameLefty

MrDad0330 said:


> When will we know the solar panels are deployed...to me, thats one of the most important things to see first...


I am not specifically familiar with the operational checkout procedures for comsats, but I do know that most spacecraft cannot survive on only internal batteries for very long - days at most usually, not the weeks necessary to maneuver to the testing location. I _suspect_, having no further data than anyone else at this point, that the antennas are deployed shortly after spacecraft separation and that the solar arrays are at least partially deployed (perhaps only several segments or "bays" per wing) to provide power during orbit raising.


----------



## Sixto

A few thoughts going forward ...

All discussion/debate of what's coming with D12 should be in the More HD thread (not here). Will update this link when the new Q1 thread is started.

All facts about what's in the stream will be in the Current HD thread (not here).

All discussion about the D12 satellite itself will be right here, along with the almost daily location (TLE) updates.

Once you see a TLE posted, please don't post it multiple times. Once we see it, we got it. We've done this before. 

As soon as a new TLE is noticed/posted, and I get to a PC to run Orbitron )), post#1 will be updated, in the format you see there right now.

It was somewhat stressful last time (D11), but Post#1 will always be updated by bedtime each night.

Let's enjoy the next several months, tracking D12 ... with some order ...


----------



## MrDad0330

Thats what im interested in..all the details of how exactly they deploy...i guess thats Boeings job at this point...


----------



## EagleClaw

Those Solar panels looked massive (watching the recap on TV last night) does anyone know the span of them?



LameLefty said:


> I am not specifically familiar with the operational checkout procedures for comsats, but I do know that most spacecraft cannot survive on only internal batteries for very long - days at most usually, not the weeks necessary to maneuver to the testing location. I _suspect_, having no further data than anyone else at this point, that the antennas are deployed shortly after spacecraft separation and that the solar arrays are at least partially deployed (perhaps only several segments or "bays" per wing) to provide power during orbit raising.


----------



## MrDad0330

im thinking they were around 150ft each...or maybe it was a total wingspan of that


----------



## Sixto

EagleClaw said:


> Those Solar panels looked massive (watching the recap on TV last night) does anyone know the span of them?


post#1 has the link (dimensions in the link):http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html​


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> A few thoughts going forward ...
> 
> All discussion/debate of what's coming with D12 should be in the More HD thread (not here). Will update this link when the new Q1 thread is started.
> 
> All facts about what's in the stream will be in the Current HD thread (not here).
> 
> All discussion about the D12 satellite itself will be right here, along with the almost daily location (TLE) updates.
> 
> Once you see a TLE posted, please don't post it multiple times. Once we see it, we got it. We've done this before.
> 
> As soon as a new TLE is noticed/posted, and I get to a PC to run Orbitron )), post#1 will be updated, in the format you see there right now.
> 
> It was somewhat stressful last time (D11), but Post#1 will always be updated by bedtime each night.
> 
> Let's enjoy the next several months, tracking D12 ... with some order ...


Maybe this info should go into the Post #2 in this thread that you have reserved?


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Maybe this info should go into the Post #2 in this thread that you have reserved?


In an ideal world that would work. But we already know most people never bother reading the first post anyway, but just jump in at the end with a question. :grin:


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Maybe this info should go into the Post #2 in this thread that you have reserved?


Hard enough getting a click on post#1 before posting!  

Still trying to find the perfect format/balance for post#1 for both newbee's and those experienced.


----------



## Darkscream

Any chance - that someone could make an app that would show the latest updated TLE - for them times when one can't pry family members off the available computers ? Or even some kind of twitter post ?

Just a suggestion.


----------



## jodavis

I think it would be great if someone with the knowledge posted a list of all the D* sats, their current orbital location, and what national channels come off which ones. Maybe this already exists if so sorry but I couldn't find it.


----------



## oldfantom

Is it possible to subscribe to post #1 and ignore the other discussion? I looked quickly but not see anything in thread tools. Obviously, from my post count and a three year old join date, I lurk more than anything. It would be nice to see the meat (read TLE updates) of this discussion via email. Either that or can we split the thread into a post launch discussion and a locked thread with the post one information without making anymore work for the mods or Sixto - both of whom do a great job?


----------



## Sixto

Darkscream said:


> Any chance - that someone could make an app that would show the latest updated TLE - for them times when one can't pry family members off the available computers ? Or even some kind of twitter post ?
> 
> Just a suggestion.


I created a twitter account for just that a while ago, but then decided it was already enough work (stress ) to keep these threads updated.


----------



## Sixto

jodavis said:


> I think it would be great if someone with the knowledge posted a list of all the D* sats, their current orbital location, and what national channels come off which ones. Maybe this already exists if so sorry but I couldn't find it.


For HD, here you go:http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1191863&postcount=2​


----------



## LameLefty

jodavis said:


> I think it would be great if someone with the knowledge posted a list of all the D* sats, their current orbital location, and what national channels come off which ones. Maybe this already exists if so sorry but I couldn't find it.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=168931

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


----------



## Darkscream

I can understand that 

BTW - Thanks for the great work and to LameLefty as well.


----------



## Satelliteracer

loudo said:


> The press release is not to promising. All it talks about is new Cinema, Demand and new locals, nothing about adding new nationals. That is good if you buy PPV and still need locals, but for those who rely on packages and are looking for missing HD channels the competitors offer, it sounds like a let down. It does mention new HD channels but only talks about PPV and locals, no mention of any new national channels. I hope we will see some of the ones everyone has been asking for.
> 
> Congrats DirecTV, on another new member to the satellite fleet.


I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


So you got the new HD list? Please share.


----------



## Sixto

Satelliteracer said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


A message from above. 

Thx!


----------



## jefbal99

Satelliteracer said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


Any chance of some early announcements or some more LiL markets getting announced for addition in 2010?


----------



## Jason Whiddon

I'd like to See Travel, Vs, BBC and ESPNU. other than that, my local CW would be nice in HD.


----------



## Richierich

Satelliteracer said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


Thanks for the Optimism Satracer!!!

We appreciate your comments as they are always right on the mark.


----------



## smiddy

Satelliteracer said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised.





richierich said:


> Thanks for the Optimism Satracer!!!
> 
> We appreciate your comments as they are always right on the mark.


I concur!


----------



## ivoaraujo

All hail the Directv Prophet, satelliteracer.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Smart Poker Players never tip their hand. 

New National HD is on its way...and we're not just talking PPV folks.


----------



## matty8199

elwaylite said:


> I'd like to See Travel, Vs, BBC and ESPNU. other than that, my local CW would be nice in HD.


MSNBC HD, DIY HD, and some of the other multiplex channels would be nice...


----------



## matty8199

oh yeah, and G4HD. olivia munn in hd...yum.


----------



## EagleClaw

Dang they are bigger than I thought, thanks.

L, solar arrays: 48.1 m (158 ft)



Sixto said:


> post#1 has the link (dimensions in the link):http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html​


----------



## ivoaraujo

Last night's broadcast said it takes two years from start to launch. With that being said, and I might be jumping the gun, but any conversation about future satellite launches? Alot of things can and usually happen in two years in the electronic world.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

matty8199 said:


> oh yeah, and G4HD. olivia munn in hd...yum.


+1


----------



## LameLefty

ivoaraujo said:


> Last night's broadcast said it takes two years from start to launch. With that being said, and I might be jumping the gun, but any conversation about future satellite launches? Alot of things can and usually happen in two years in the electronic world.


Yes. Directv has FCC licenses for three new satellites, so far referred to only as RB-1, -2 and -4. No official contract announcement has been made, but during last night's commentary, there was reference to "Directv 14" - I suspect, as do several others, that D14 will be the new name for the first of the RB satellites.

RB stands for Reverse Band, also known as BSS band - basically, re-using the Ku band frequencies currently used for uplink only as downlink frequencies too.

I suspect, as do others, that D14 as built will have a mixed Ka, Ku and BSS payload, allowing it to fill in the gaps and provide further in-orbit backup capacity in the event of orbital failure of another satellite.


----------



## Sixto

Back to topic.

HD channel discussion in the other thread.

And there may be a solution to updates ... soon ...


----------



## ddobson

During the pre-launch last night, reference was made to ILS being contracted to do DirecTV 14. Not sure anything about 13 but they mentioned ILS will be doing D14....


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Hard enough getting a click on post#1 before posting!
> 
> Still trying to find the perfect format/balance for post#1 for both newbee's and those experienced.


I saw it on a few boards - first post could be made on top of each page for member's reminding.


----------



## woj027

ddobson said:


> During the pre-launch last night, reference was made to ILS being contracted to do DirecTV 14. Not sure anything about 13 but they mentioned ILS will be doing D14....


I wonder if in the satellite world like the big building world the number 13 isn't so popular and they skip it and go to 14


----------



## Sixto

www.twitter.com/sixtoreport


----------



## BEP1030

Just out of curiosity, are any of the rocket stages reused for another flight?


----------



## P Smith

Those six boosters perhaps.


----------



## steveken

Anyone have any idea what a good OS X based satellite tracker program is? I used Windows the last time I kept track of DirecTV 10, so I don't know about mac programs.


----------



## raoul5788

matty8199 said:


> MSNBC HD, DIY HD, and some of the other multiplex channels would be nice...


The last I knew, there was no hd version of DIY.


----------



## ncgbrown

Kinda rusty on my Orbitron. Should I be seeing that nice figure 8 pattern from D12 right now?


----------



## Tibs

P Smith said:


> I saw it on a few boards - first post could be made on top of each page for member's reminding.


Yeah, I use it on a few boards I manage, I think its called "Chief First Post - Every Page - [Thread Based]" which would let this thread be managed like that.

Due to the size of the first post it might get too big each page load, you could break some of the older info into post 2 and leave the most current info in Post 1. Then every page load would have first post at top.


----------



## bamaweather

Sixto said:


> www.twitter.com/sixtoreport


Following. Great idea!


----------



## Sixto

bamaweather said:


> Following. Great idea!


A little tied up this week, but all significant D12 and HD changes/updates will be tweeted. www.twitter.com/sixtoreport​


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

ILS's page says the last step is "departure charter". whats that mean and when's it supposed to take place?


----------



## oldfantom

ddobson said:


> During the pre-launch last night, reference was made to ILS being contracted to do DirecTV 14. Not sure anything about 13 but they mentioned ILS will be doing D14....


they said the would like to go with ILS. I think this is a first indication of a plan for 14. Well, maybe the filings for the grants were, but this is the first time it was named as far as I know. I still would think you would see an outlay of cash for a build noted in an annual report. Or maybe a press release from Boeing. Does anyone know when the 10-12 builds made the news?


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> A little tied up this week, but all significant D12 and HD changes/updates will be tweeted. www.twitter.com/sixtoreport​


Followed


----------



## Sixto

Update#2:


Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-29-2009 17:32:06
Orbit # at Epoch	1
Inclination		20.577
RA of A. Node		99.101
Eccentricity		0.5719834
Argument of Perigee	359.776
Revs per day		1.98014835
Period			12h 07m 13s (727.22 min)
Semi-major axis		26 788 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 087 x 35 732 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		65.931
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	2 / 0 day(s)

Lon			127.1395° W
Lat			11.4580° N
Alt (km)		27 846.400


----------



## jefbal99

Holy crap, they moved it 4500km today and dropped the inclination 25°?

Damn, are they in a rush? D11 and SW1 were a week to 10 days before that was reached


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Holy crap, they moved it 4500km today?
> 
> Damn, are they in a rush? D11 and SW1 were a week to 10 days before that was reached


almost same as D10


----------



## dennisj00

Coca Cola Kid said:


> ILS's page says the last step is "departure charter". whats that mean and when's it supposed to take place?


Most likely, the departure of the visiting support crew to go HOME and get WARM!


----------



## LameLefty

woj027 said:


> I wonder if in the satellite world like the big building world the number 13 isn't so popular and they skip it and go to 14


No, already asked and answered in the thread. There was FCC approval for Directv 13 to go to the 110W slot. Directv changed plans several years ago and surrendered that authorization. The current open authorizations are RB-1 at 99, RB-2 at 103, and RB-4 at 110. Whether those RB-nn authorizations are changed to Directv 14, 15 and 16 is yet to be seen.


----------



## LameLefty

BEP1030 said:


> Just out of curiosity, are any of the rocket stages reused for another flight?





P Smith said:


> Those six boosters perhaps.


Those are not boosters, they are integral parts of the Proton first stage. The central core contains the oxidizer (if I remember correctly) and the outer segments contain the fuel tanks, with a single engine under each one. The stage is dropped and not designed or intended for reuse.


----------



## LameLefty

ncgbrown said:


> Kinda rusty on my Orbitron. Should I be seeing that nice figure 8 pattern from D12 right now?


Yes. The orbit is very elliptical and extends very far from earth. At apogee, the velocity is lowest and at perigee it's highest. Given the eccentricity of the orbit (how elliptical it is), the angle of the orbit (inclination) and changing velocity, at times the earth's rotation is faster than the ground speed of the satellite as seen from a fixed point. So what happens is, the satellite moves in an ellipse with a constantly-changing speed and altitude while the earth rotates steadily beneath it, giving us these great, confusing ground tracks.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Anyone have any idea what a good OS X based satellite tracker program is? I used Windows the last time I kept track of DirecTV 10, so I don't know about mac programs.


I use MacDoppler Lite but I actually prefer Orbitron running under WINE. However, I tried to run it this morning and it crashed - something broke when I upgraded to Snow Leopard. I'll probably have to reinstall WINE before I can get Orbitron to run properly.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> almost same as D10


True, I only remember D11 as I didn't join DirecTV until after D10 was live and the HD expansion began. I must have looked right past the D10 numbers


----------



## sat2631

Picture of the first two TLEs and D11 now.


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> No, already asked and answered in the thread. There was FCC approval for Directv 13 to go to the 110W slot. Directv changed plans several years ago and surrendered that authorization. The current open authorizations are RB-1 at 99, RB-2 at 103, and RB-4 at 110. Whether those RB-nn authorizations are changed to Directv 14, 15 and 16 is yet to be seen.


Hmmmm - interesting, wouldn't you think? (as I look longingly at my SL3)


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> The orbit is very elliptical and extends very far from earth.


I just downloaded Orbitron few hours ago, so I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve. I did figure out how to create a TLE file with Sixto's data and view it in Orbitron. Neat stuff.

Does Orbitron have a way to see the orbit in cross section through Earth so we can see how elliptical it is?


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> I just downloaded Orbitron few hours ago, so I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve. I did figure out how to create a TLE file with Sixto's data and view it in Orbitron. Neat stuff.
> 
> Does Orbitron have a way to see the orbit in cross section through Earth so we can see how elliptical it is?


I don't recall with Orbitron, but most tracking programs let you specify a location. Use a North Pole location (Latitude 90N, any longitude) and you'll see the eccentricity clearly.


----------



## evan_s

hancox said:


> Hmmmm - interesting, wouldn't you think? (as I look longingly at my SL3)


Even people with an SL5 will likely need a new lnb before they would be able to receive anything from RB4 at 110. There are also a number of things it could be used for that wouldn't require changing their core consumers back to an SL5 or similar.

Foreign programing, Locals, back hauling, etc.


----------



## HoTat2

sat2631 said:


> Picture of the first two TLEs and D11 now.


Thanks;

Helpful image to visualize the current and upcoming orbital stages in spite of its 2D limitation.

To add to this for the orientation of the orbit, I also assume the sun would be coming in from the right of the image in line with the perigee point placing it at local noon and thus the far apogee point to the left is at local midnight.

Therefore the equatorial points of the earth's day-night terminator are at right angles to a line through the apogee, perigee, and sun positions?


----------



## MrDad0330

to circlize the orbit, to they make small burns at the apogee


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks;
> 
> Helpful image to visualize the current and upcoming orbital stages in spite of its 2D limitation.
> 
> To add to this for the orientation of the orbit, I also assume the sun would be coming in from the right of the image in line with the perigee point placing it at local noon and thus the far apogee point to the left is at local midnight.
> 
> Therefore the equatorial points of the earth's day-night terminator are at right angles to a line through the apogee, perigee, and sun positions?


The apogee, perigee and terminator points relative to local noon and midnight only really matter for sun-synchronous orbits, designed to stay in sunlight despite changing apparent altitude and azimuth and whatnot. A GSO, since it is circular, will have no apparent motion. Therefore, it doesn't matter what point you call the apogee and perigee; they'll be basically the same everywhere, within the limits of controllability.

Also, the satellite will be making many small, gradual movements, and those thrusting events take place in finite time (not as the instantaneously velocity changes you can easily approximate in college classes with paper and a calculator). The the "true" apogee and perigee points of these intermediate transfer trajectories can vary all over the place.


----------



## LameLefty

MrDad0330 said:


> to circlize the orbit, to they make small burns at the apogee


Except that the apogee isn't gonna be dead on GSO altitude, usually, and the burns aren't instantaneous, but rather take finite time which must be iteratively calculated, AND we can't forget the plane change maneuvers to lower inclination, which are usually done at apogee to reduce cosine losses.


----------



## steveken

LameLefty said:


> I use MacDoppler Lite but I actually prefer Orbitron running under WINE. However, I tried to run it this morning and it crashed - something broke when I upgraded to Snow Leopard. I'll probably have to reinstall WINE before I can get Orbitron to run properly.


MacDoppler Lite is really hard to figure out. Think I will try WINE and Orbitron.


----------



## steveken

Errrr, no I won't. I'll stick to Orbitron in my Windows Parallels window.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Errrr, no I won't. I'll stick to Orbitron in my Windows Parallels window.


Apparently CrossOver Pro got borked by the 10.6 upgrade so I can't run Orbitron as I have things currently setup. I'll stick with MacDopper Lite for now until I get VirtualBox reinstalled with a nice, lean little XP setup.


----------



## steveken

LameLefty said:


> Apparently CrossOver Pro got borked by the 10.6 upgrade so I can't run Orbitron as I have things currently setup. I'll stick with MacDopper Lite for now until I get VirtualBox reinstalled with a nice, lean little XP setup.


I just could not figure out how to put anything into MacDoppler Lite. It just was not intuitive enough for me to figure out. It kinda looked like I needed to break the TLE up into parts or something like that. At least the Orbitron method is a little easier for a dummy like me to figure out.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> I just could not figure out how to put anything into MacDoppler Lite. It just was not intuitive enough for me to figure out. It kinda looked like I needed to break the TLE up into parts or something like that. At least the Orbitron method is a little easier for a dummy like me to figure out.


Yes, that's what it boils down to: there's a "Data" folder inside the MacDoppler Lite folder. Inside that is a file named "kepler.dat" which is a text file of all the TLEs of whatever satellites you wish to track. I have to manually edit this file for every updated element set.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> The apogee, perigee and terminator points relative to local noon and midnight only really matter for sun-synchronous orbits, designed to stay in sunlight despite changing apparent altitude and azimuth and whatnot. A GSO, since it is circular, will have no apparent motion. Therefore, it doesn't matter what point you call the apogee and perigee; they'll be basically the same everywhere, within the limits of controllability.
> 
> Also, the satellite will be making many small, gradual movements, and those thrusting events take place in finite time (not as the instantaneously velocity changes you can easily approximate in college classes with paper and a calculator). The the "true" apogee and perigee points of these intermediate transfer trajectories can vary all over the place.


I thought such orbital alignments with things like the local noon and midnight meridians primarily pertained to sun-synchronous obits as well.

But toward the end of the ILS broadcast they ran an animation piece describing the entire mission profile and mentioned part of the function of Breeze-M burns 2, 3, and 4 is to "center" the ascending node of the orbit so the perigee occurs about local noon and apogee local midnight.

Now as I stated I can understand orienting the orbit at GTO injection so the ascending and descending nodes are made to coincide with perigee and apogee respectively. But I don't understand why these points in turn need to be aligned with the local noon and midnight as stated in the ILS broadcast animation.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> I thought such orbital alignments with things like the local noon and midnight meridians primarily pertained to sun-synchronous obits as well.
> 
> But toward the end of the ILS broadcast they ran an animation piece describing the entire mission profile and mentioned part of the function of Breeze-M burns 2, 3, and 4 is to "center" the ascending node of the orbit so the perigee occurs about local noon and apogee local midnight.
> 
> Now as I stated I can understand orienting the orbit at GTO injection so the ascending and descending nodes are made to coincide with perigee and apogee respectively. But I don't understand why these points in turn need to be aligned with the local noon and midnight as stated in the ILS broadcast animation.


I don't know unless it has to do with thermal control of the Briz-M. I might run this query past a friend of mine who does orbital mechanics at JSC (he teaches astronauts how to rendezvous with the ISS and knows this stuff COLD). Let me see what he has to say about it and get back to the thread with it - it might take him time to answer due to holidays and what not.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> I don't know unless it has to do with thermal control of the Briz-M. I might run this query past a friend of mine who does orbital mechanics at JSC (he teaches astronauts how to rendezvous with the ISS and knows this stuff COLD). Let me see what he has to say about it and get back to the thread with it - it might take him time to answer due to holidays and what not.


Thanks LL;

I will be waiting. Probably of irrelevance to D12 throughout its orbit raising and circulation phase perhaps, but still of academic interest nevertheless...


----------



## Sixto

Very similar to #2 and #3 ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-29-2009 18:30:07
Orbit # at Epoch	1
Inclination		20.554
RA of A. Node		99.172
Eccentricity		0.5720973
Argument of Perigee	359.725
Revs per day		1.97950342
Period			12h 07m 27s (727.45 min)
Semi-major axis		26 794 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 087 x 35 744 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		94.610
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	4 / 0 day(s)

Lon			127.2672° W
Lat			10.8150° N
Alt (km)		28 639.270

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]  Time  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .2H  @  .6D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .8H  @  .6D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  +13.6H  @  .6D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759           Start  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°)


----------



## LameLefty

For those who like to see how the trajectory changes . . .



Code:


DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A   09363.77092464  .00000046  00000-0  00000+0 0    41
2 36131 020.5544 099.1718 5720973 359.7247 094.6104 01.97950342    16
1 36131U 09075A   09363.76379797  .00000049  00000-0  00000+0 0    39
2 36131 020.5747 099.1149 5721012 359.7515 089.5738 01.98028585    14
1 36131U 09075A   09363.73063597  .00000049  00000-0  00000+0 0    23
2 36131 020.5772 099.1007 5719834 359.7760 065.9312 01.98014835    15
1 36131U 09075A   09363.16574568 -.00000150  00000-0  00000+0 0    18
2 36131 045.5191 099.1525 7219992 359.8876 359.8021 02.26808567    09

From NORAD's Space Command radars to your tracking programs . . .


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Those are not boosters, they are integral parts of the Proton first stage. The central core contains the oxidizer (if I remember correctly) and the outer segments contain the fuel tanks, with a single engine under each one. The stage is dropped and not designed or intended for reuse.


Perhaps I mixed up with Energia monster ... The UR-500 is old.


----------



## P Smith

MrDad0330 said:


> to *circlize* the orbit, to they make small burns at the apogee


 some burns will happen right before the object's position on current orbit will cross equatorial plane, far away from apogee - to reduce inclination


----------



## Sixto

Slowly getting the bugs out of the change tracking. And remembering how I did it. 

Will be using the D11 format going forward. Will update post#1 at every change.


Code:


[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]  Time  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .2H  @  .6D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .8H  @  .6D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  +13.6H  @  .6D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759           Start  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°


----------



## P Smith

Sixto, could you add inclination to the format, at least before it become 0.00001  ?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Perhaps I mixed up with Energia monster ... The UR-500 is old.


I believe the Soyuz family drops their side-mounted boosters as well but I'm not certain. The Zenit (used by Sea-Launch and their Land-Launch subsidiary) started life as liquid-fueled side mounted boosters for Energia.

As far as Proton, yeah it's old (so is Soyuz) but it works reasonably well, it's cost-efficient, and it's been continuously improved slowly and methodically (a lesson American aerospace industry has a hard time embracing).


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> some burns will happen right before the object's position on current orbit will cross equatorial plane, far away from apogee - to reduce inclination


Actually, plane changes are usually done at apogee because it's more efficient. If anyone wants to go over the math . . .

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm#maneuver


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto, could you add inclination to the format, at least before it become 0.00001  ?


done.


Code:


[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]  Time  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .2H  @  .6D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .8H  @  .6D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  +13.6H  @  .6D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759           Start  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°


----------



## badger04

http://www.pddnet.com/news-ap-boeing-built-directv-12-satellite-delivers-1st-sig-122909/
The satellite is alive!!!!!!


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> I use MacDoppler Lite but I actually prefer Orbitron running under WINE. However, I tried to run it this morning and it crashed - something broke when I upgraded to Snow Leopard. I'll probably have to reinstall WINE before I can get Orbitron to run properly.


It looks like gpredict is available using Fink. I used it previously with Linux and am installing it on my Mac Mini now (a slow process since it needs to do a lot of compiling).


----------



## Movieman

How long does it normally take for the FCC to settle disputes like the one posted by Spectrum and would that decrease or increase the speed at which they can launch services to us?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Movieman said:


> How long does it normally take for the FCC to settle disputes like the one posted by Spectrum and would that decrease or increase the speed at which they can launch services to us?


The one from Spectrum likely won't take very long. If I read between the lines, the FCC hasn't been very sympathetic to Spectrum's snow and mirrors...

The one with Ciel could take longer. My guess is the FCC will let D12 operate on the BSS band until Ciel launches. After that, my crystal ball is very cloudy. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Indiana627

badger04 said:


> http://www.pddnet.com/news-ap-boeing-built-directv-12-satellite-delivers-1st-sig-122909/
> The satellite is alive!!!!!!


Great to hear! Thanks.


----------



## Maleman

Can someone tell me in "english" terms what the satellite does now?

Non technical wording would be much appreciated. 

My thinking from reading some of these postings is that the satellite has to find its way to a specific spot, settle in after so many days? Then its stationary? And then signals can be sent down to Directv? Yikes.

Thanks kindly.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maleman said:


> Can someone tell me in "english" terms what the satellite does now?


The satellite is currently in an oval-shaped orbit, that will be circularized over the coming weeks. It will eventually settle at 76° longitude, in a geosynchronous orbit, for testing. Once that's over, the satellite will be either raised or lowered (can't remember which) to allow the Earth to rotate slower or faster under it, which will allow the satellite to end up at 103° where it will send signals down to us.


----------



## Maleman

Jeremy W said:


> The satellite is currently in an oval-shaped orbit, that will be circularized over the coming weeks. It will eventually settle at 76° longitude, in a geosynchronous orbit, for testing. Once that's over, the satellite will be either raised or lowered (can't remember which) to allow the Earth to rotate slower or faster under it, which will allow the satellite to end up at 103° where it will send signals down to us.


Thanks I sort of understand


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> The satellite is currently in an oval-shaped orbit, that will be circularized over the coming weeks. It will eventually settle at 76° longitude, in a geosynchronous orbit, for testing. Once that's over, the satellite will be either raised or lowered (can't remember which) to allow the Earth to rotate slower or faster under it, which will allow the satellite to end up at 103° where it will send signals down to us.


:goodjob:

The orbit will be raised slightly - that will increase the orbital period to slightly less than 1 day. The earth will rotate beneath the satellite, causing it to appear to drift westward from 76ºW until it reaches 103ºW. At that point the orbit will be lowered until the orbital period once again matches the rate of earth's rotation.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> :goodjob:
> 
> The orbit will be raised slightly - that will increase the orbital period to slightly less than 1 day. The earth will rotate beneath the satellite, causing it to appear to drift westward from 76ºW until it reaches 103ºW. At that point the orbit will be lowered until the orbital period once again matches the rate of earth's rotation.


I was leaning towards raised, but I just couldn't remember which. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## LameLefty

Actually there was a typo in my response which I didn't notice until I read Jeremy's quote of mine. Raising the orbit increases the period to slightly _more_ than one day. Oops. :sure:


----------



## P Smith

badger04 said:


> http://www.pddnet.com/news-ap-boeing-built-directv-12-satellite-delivers-1st-sig-122909/
> The satellite is alive!!!!!!


ANother quote from that place: 
"_Handover of DIRECTV 12 is scheduled for early 2010_", means DTV will take full control from Boeing's hands soon.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Actually, plane changes are usually done at apogee because it's more efficient. If anyone wants to go over the math . . .
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm#maneuver


Well, mistakenly my suggestion came from other type of objects, what required fast maneuvers, where fuel requirement play against future damages.


----------



## LarryFlowers

P Smith said:


> ANother quote from that place:
> "_Handover of DIRECTV 12 is scheduled for early 2010_", means DTV will take full control from Boeing's hands soon.


Another place where a real definition of the word "soon" would be useful. At any rate, Boeing has a lot of work to do before handover.


----------



## P Smith

The word 'soon' used purposely, as no real ETA revealed. We could speculate what "_early 2010_" means, perhaps Jan, or Q1.


----------



## Sixto

Maleman said:


> Can someone tell me in "english" terms what the satellite does now?


The goal is to get D12 to a geostationary orbit, which is an orbit where the low point of the orbit (the perigee) and the high point of the orbit (the apogee) are both at 35,786km above the earth, at the equator (0° latitude). This will be a "circular" orbit, where D12 will appear to be stationary at both the test location of 76°, and the final location at 103°.

When following the orbital updates in post#1, the target is to get D12 to 35,786 x 35,786km, at 76° W longitude, 0° latitude (equator).

At the last update, D12 was at 5,087 x 35,793, at 127° W longitude, 10.81° N latitude. We have a ways to go! 

Just keep watching for 35,786 x 35,786km, which should be in about 35-50 days.

I need to update post#1 to make this understanding simpler.


----------



## syphix

D12 has a BSS payload for testing, correct? If so, and it follows the same testing length as D11 -- and takes 134 days until going "live" -- we're looking at May 11, 2010 for D12. Of course, this is simply a prediction off D11's life. But wasn't D11 launched by Sea Launch, helping it get to it's initial geosynchronous orbit faster than by launching with ILS? So could D12 take even _longer_? Or would the BSS testing take less time for some reason?


----------



## jefbal99

syphix said:


> D12 has a BSS payload for testing, correct? If so, and it follows the same testing length as D11 -- and takes 134 days until going "live" -- we're looking at May 11, 2010 for D12. Of course, this is simply a prediction off D11's life. But wasn't D11 launched by Sea Launch, helping it get to it's initial geosynchronous orbit faster than by launching with ILS? So could D12 take even _longer_? Or would the BSS testing take less time for some reason?


No, D12s BSS payload is for providing signals to customers in 4 spot beams. Nobody knows about what hardware will be developed for those areas or what the services will be.


----------



## bobnielsen

syphix said:


> D12 has a BSS payload for testing, correct? If so, and it follows the same testing length as D11 -- and takes 134 days until going "live" -- we're looking at May 11, 2010 for D12. Of course, this is simply a prediction off D11's life. But wasn't D11 launched by Sea Launch, helping it get to it's initial geosynchronous orbit faster than by launching with ILS? So could D12 take even _longer_? Or would the BSS testing take less time for some reason?


That's not a good comparison, since the BSS operation on D12 can be done at the final orbital position of 103∘(assuming FCC approval).


----------



## syphix

Ah...okay. I thought perhaps the BSS payload on D12 was similar to D11's in that it was for testing purposes only. They're already planning on using BSS on D12 for broadcasting to customers?? Cool!


----------



## bobnielsen

syphix said:


> Ah...okay. I thought perhaps the BSS payload on D12 was similar to D11's in that it was for testing purposes only. They're already planning on using BSS on D12 for broadcasting to customers?? Cool!


They haven't said whether they will broadcast to customers, but there are several spotbeams for BSS and we can hope....


----------



## HoTat2

syphix said:


> Ah...okay. I thought perhaps the BSS payload on D12 was similar to D11's in that it was for testing purposes only. They're already planning on using BSS on D12 for broadcasting to customers?? Cool!


Oh there will be an in orbit testing period for the BSS payload RB-2A at 76° W if it is approved by the FCC and if Spectrum Five's legal challenge to it is thrown out.

But we don't know the length of it.

In fact neither the main Ka-band payload nor the BSS one have actually received FCC permission for any IOT process at 76° W as of yet.


----------



## cartrivision

ncgbrown said:


> Kinda rusty on my Orbitron. Should I be seeing that nice figure 8 pattern from D12 right now?
> 
> 
> 
> LameLefty said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. The orbit is very elliptical and extends very far from earth. At apogee, the velocity is lowest and at perigee it's highest. Given the eccentricity of the orbit (how elliptical it is), the angle of the orbit (inclination) and changing velocity, at times the earth's rotation is faster than the ground speed of the satellite as seen from a fixed point. So what happens is, the satellite moves in an ellipse with a constantly-changing speed and altitude while the earth rotates steadily beneath it, giving us these great, confusing ground tracks.
Click to expand...

That's not exactly correct. Contrary to your affirmative answer to the poster's question, the correct answer is no, he should not be seeing a figure 8 pattern... it's an S shaped pattern as pictured below...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sorry I've been out all day. So everythings looking good then? The "wings/fins" deployed out ok today?

Thanks


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> That's not exactly correct. Contrary to your affirmative answer to the poster's question, the correct answer is no, he should not be seeing a figure 8 pattern... it's an S shaped pattern as pictured below...


Tried two different web-browsers, this image is not loading for some reason cartrivision


----------



## HoTat2

TheRatPatrol said:


> Sorry I've been out all day. So everythings looking good then? The "wings/fins" deployed out ok today?
> 
> Thanks


No indication of any deployment of solar panels as of yet. D12 still appears to be in it's initial GTO since released from the Breeze-M yesterday. However early telemetry received from the tracking station at Hartebeesthoek, South Africa reports that all is well so far with the satellite.


----------



## xylo

HoTat2 said:


> No indication of any deployment of solar panels as of yet. D12 still appears to be in it's initial GTO since released from the Breeze-M yesterday. However early telemetry received from the tracking station at Hartebeesthoek, South Africa reports that all is well so far with the satellite.


I did some research on the 702 and found a document that details the steps.

According to Boeing, the spacecraft unfolds the solar arrays and antennas are released/deployed (called first deployment) before the XIPS engines start burns to push the satellite to GSO. We know the XIPS burns have started (see TLE changes) and we know Boeing reported that it received signals from D12 stating it was healthy.

However the picture also says that it does burns before hand before first deployment and XIPS burn to push the satellite to 24h / 0 inclination eccentric orbit. (I'm starting to think this is really the Breeze-M lift part pushing the craft to GTO). LameLefty please correct me here if I'm wrong.

Knowing this, and assuming the above is correct I think it would probably be safe to guess that D12's solar arrays and dishes are deployed (no Galileo curse here). Once D12 reaches GSO, the radiators are deployed and the "payload" is turned on. This would mean that D12 is really still "off" and the only thing on right now is the computer controlling the sat positioning/thrusters (navigation avionics?).


----------



## Tom Robertson

xylo said:


> I did some research on the 702 and found a document that details the steps.
> 
> According to Boeing, the spacecraft unfolds the solar arrays and antennas are released/deployed (called first deployment) before the XIPS engines start burns to push the satellite to GSO. We know the XIPS burns have started (see TLE changes) and we know Boeing reported that it received signals from D12 stating it was healthy.
> 
> However the picture also says that it does burns before hand before first deployment and XIPS burn to push the satellite to 24h / 0 inclination eccentric orbit. (I'm starting to think this is really the Breeze-M lift part pushing the craft to GTO). LameLefty please correct me here if I'm wrong.
> 
> Knowing this, and assuming the above is correct I think it would probably be safe to guess that D12's solar arrays and dishes are deployed (no Galileo curse here). Once D12 reaches GSO, the radiators are deployed and the "payload" is turned on. This would mean that D12 is really still "off" and the only thing on right now is the computer controlling the sat positioning/thrusters (navigation avionics?).


The 702 bus has both liquid propulsion and XIPs thrusters. From your excellent find, I'm guessing we're still in the liquid propulsion phase.

The one thing that is tough to reconcile is battery life during these phases of the journey. While folded, do the solar panels produce enough electricity to power the guidance and telemetry systems?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Wait...

The batteries are meant to power the whole satellite's normal functions between recharges. Since the broadcasting power is turned off right now, the batteries should be able to provide weeks? months? of power to just the guidance and telemetry systems. 

Or am I missing something? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## xylo

Tom Robertson said:


> The 702 bus has both liquid propulsion and XIPs thrusters. From your excellent find, I'm guessing we're still in the liquid propulsion phase.


See this is what's confusing me. According to the picture, first deployment happens before it hits GSO. But it says the first burns before first deployment are to put it at a 24h period 0 inclination -- isn't that a geostationary orbit? It then says XIPS circularize the orbit (which would imply moving it to a geostationary orbit??) but it says to a geo synchronous orbit before final deployment .

I must be confused. Lefty help me out here. :grin:



> The one thing that is tough to reconcile is battery life during these phases of the journey. While folded, do the solar panels produce enough electricity to power the guidance and telemetry systems?





> The batteries are meant to power the whole satellite's normal functions between recharges. Since the broadcasting power is turned off right now, the batteries should be able to provide weeks? months? of power to just the guidance and telemetry systems.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


That makes sense -- but really after being more confused by that picture I don't know if I should guess more.


----------



## P Smith

If you will take just one parameter - "0 inclination" - what is far away for current position of D12, then all others would be irrelevant for next few days. Check Sixto table here.


----------



## HoTat2

xylo said:


> See this is what's confusing me. According to the picture, first deployment happens before it hits GSO. But it says the first burns before first deployment are to put it at a 24h period 0 inclination -- isn't that a geostationary orbit? It then says XIPS circularize the orbit (which would imply moving it to a geostationary orbit??) but it says to a geo synchronous orbit before final deployment .
> 
> I must be confused. Lefty help me out here. :grin: ...


It's a common misconception;

You are simply confusing a "geosynchronous orbit" which may be circular or elliptical in shape with what is actually a "geostationary orbit" which is both circular and geosynchronous, and thus appears to remain over one spot as seen from the earth. A geostationary orbit is also geosynchronous, but the reverse is not necessarily true.

If the orbit is geosynchronous and elliptical with a 0° inclination before the Boeing "First Deployment" phase in your well found document there, the satellite will not be stationary over one spot on the earth, but appear to oscillate east and west about a mean position to a degree depending on the ellipticity of the orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto's busy with family I guess but here's the newest elset . . .



Code:


DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A   09363.63815891  .00000048  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
2 36131 020.5758 099.1112 5719809 359.7712 000.0093 01.97955113    13


----------



## HoTat2

And I would add that if this Boeing deployment sequence is the one actually followed by D12 then I would expect the forthcoming TLEs will mainly show reducing angles of inclination and not any real changes in orbital eccentricity until 0° inclination is reached.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> And I would add that if this Boeing deployment sequence is the one actually followed by D12 then I would expect the forthcoming TLEs will mainly show reducing angles of inclination and not any real changes in orbital eccentricity until 0° inclination is reached.


Just check out Sixto's comparison with the historical data from D10. It should be very similar.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> ... here's the newest elset . . .[/code]


Another one of those weird states where updates are sometimes out of order. Update#5 timestamp is before #2. Will add to table anyway, but place it before #2.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-29-2009 15:18:56
Orbit # at Epoch	1
Inclination		20.576
RA of A. Node		99.111
Eccentricity		0.5719809
Argument of Perigee	359.771
Revs per day		1.97955113
Period			12h 07m 26s (727.43 min)
Semi-major axis		26 793 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 090 x 35 740 km
Element number / age	5 / 0 day(s)

Lon			131.1134° E
Lat			0.0101° S
Alt (km)		5 059.210

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]  Time  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .2H  @  .6D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .8H  @  .6D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  + 2.2H  @  .6D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
005 12-29-2009 15:18:56  5 090 x 35 740  +11.3H  @  .5D  131.11°   0.01°S  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759           Start  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°


----------



## kmax

Pardon my ignorance (and I've searched for an answer) but what exactly is BSS and its intended use, or ultimate capabilities?

And thank you everyone involved in providing information on the launch and current position. I'm amazed watching it all come together.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Another one of those weird states where TLE's are sometimes out of order. TLE#5 timestamp is before #2. Will add to table anyway, but place it before #2.


OK, this is a dumb question as well, but are TLE's ZULU time or are they impacted by the local time zone in a tracking station?


----------



## doctor j

oldfantom said:


> OK, this is a dumb question as well, but are TLE's ZULU time or are they impacted by the local time zone in a tracking station?


UTC time code

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

Element Set Epoch
04236.56031392The first two digits ('04') indicate the year. Add 1900 for years >= 57, and 2000 for all others. 
The remainder of the field ('236.56031392') is the day of the year.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

kmax said:


> Pardon my ignorance (and I've searched for an answer) but what exactly is BSS and its intended use, or ultimate capabilities?
> 
> And thank you everyone involved in providing information on the launch and current position. I'm amazed watching it all come together.


BSS is also known as "reverse band" (hence the "RB" designations for the next three planned Directv satellites). It's essentially using the Ku band frequencies currently used for uplinks to satellites as downlinks as well. Part of the reason developing BSS capabilities for direct-to-home satellite transmission has taken so long is because the FCC and DBS providers have to be very careful about potential interference with uplink transmissions.

It's not yet clear what use BSS will be, ultimately. There are political/bureaucratic fights going on right now in the FCC about the ITU's assignment of the 103W BSS slot to more than one nation, and how the administrative agencies in charge of radio communications in multiple nations are supposed to coordinate their licensing procedures (see dozens of previous posts in this thread for more on that).


----------



## kmax

LameLefty said:


> BSS is also known as "reverse band" (hence the "RB" designations for the next three planned Directv satellites). It's essentially using the Ku band frequencies currently used for uplinks to satellites as downlinks as well. Part of the reason developing BSS capabilities for direct-to-home satellite transmission has taken so long is because the FCC and DBS providers have to be very careful about potential interference with uplink transmissions.
> 
> It's not yet clear what use BSS will be, ultimately. There are political/bureaucratic fights going on right now in the FCC about the ITU's assignment of the 103W BSS slot to more than one nation, and how the administrative agencies in charge of radio communications in multiple nations are supposed to coordinate their licensing procedures (see dozens of previous posts in this thread for more on that).


Thank you. A lot of this over my head, but is the goal then to conserve frequency spectrum space?


----------



## Sixto

Did tweak the comparison format last night, added the latitude as well.


Code:


[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .2H  @  .6D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .8H  @  .6D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  + 2.2H  @  .6D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
005 12-29-2009 15:18:56  5 090 x 35 740  +11.3H  @  .5D  131.11°   0.01°S  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759           Start  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°

In the future, after we get Update#6, will only show the past 5 updates's in the post, but post#1 will always have all the updates.

Also, is there anything else important for the comparison lines? With the limitation that I don't want anyone to have to scroll left/right within the "code" box.


----------



## LameLefty

You might want to delete the lat/long in the tables as they may be confusing to some. At this point the vehicle is in a very elliptical, inclined orbit and the actual lat/long will be changing continuously for some weeks yet. It might be simpler for people's understanding to just not post it.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> You might want to delete the lat/long in the tables as they may be confusing to some. At this point the vehicle is in a very elliptical, inclined orbit and the actual lat/long will be changing continuously for some weeks yet. It might be simpler for people's understanding to just not post it.


Yep, I keep bouncing back-and-forth between being easy enough for new folks tracking this for the first time, and those experienced who want all the details. It seemed interesting to see all the changes, so everyone will be able to see how dramatically things change, until it starts to settle down in a few weeks.

I also need to refine the notice of TLE updates. I had a way to get almost immediate TLE updates last time, but haven't had access to the same yet for D12. So (for now) anyone seeing a change, just post that there's a change, and I'll get the tables updated.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Just check out Sixto's comparison with the historical data from D10. It should be very similar.


Thanks for the suggestion LL;

But that comparison list posted earlier by Sixto does not list the inclination histories to see if the Boeing sequence is indeed followed. Particularly how it varied for D10 on days 2, 3, and 4 prior to its perigee rising significantly on day 6.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2315517#post2315517

Unless there is another comparison list I'm not aware of you're referring to.


----------



## HoTat2

kmax said:


> Pardon my ignorance (and I've searched for an answer) but what exactly is BSS and its intended use, or ultimate capabilities?
> 
> And thank you everyone involved in providing information on the launch and current position. I'm amazed watching it all come together.





LameLefty said:


> BSS is also known as "reverse band" (hence the "RB" designations for the next three planned Directv satellites). It's essentially using the Ku band frequencies currently used for uplinks to satellites as downlinks as well. Part of the reason developing BSS capabilities for direct-to-home satellite transmission has taken so long is because the FCC and DBS providers have to be very careful about potential interference with uplink transmissions.
> 
> It's not yet clear what use BSS will be, ultimately. There are political/bureaucratic fights going on right now in the FCC about the ITU's assignment of the 103W BSS slot to more than one nation, and how the administrative agencies in charge of radio communications in multiple nations are supposed to coordinate their licensing procedures (see dozens of previous posts in this thread for more on that).


And in addition you and others may want to check out Tom's excellent post on this topic back in early October for the layman;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2238506#post2238506


----------



## hdtvfan0001

HoTat2 said:


> And in addition you and others may want to check out Tom's excellent post on this topic back in early October *for the layman*;
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2238506#post2238506


Yes...a good explanation...even I understood it. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion LL;
> 
> But that comparison list posted earlier by Sixto does not list the inclination histories to see if the Boeing sequence is indeed followed. Particularly how it varied for D10 on days 2, 3, and 4 prior to its perigee rising significantly on day 6.
> 
> Unless there is another comparison list I'm not aware of you're referring to.


I have the data. Will post it later ...


----------



## smiddy

kmax said:


> Pardon my ignorance (and I've searched for an answer) but what exactly is BSS and its intended use, or ultimate capabilities?
> 
> And thank you everyone involved in providing information on the launch and current position. I'm amazed watching it all come together.


Here are a couple of links:


http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/20/directv-11-satellite-tests-out-17-24-ghz-bss-bands/
http://64.73.234.212/pdf/DIRECTV_Amdocs.pdf (Not the accepted acronym for what you are looking for, but I thought it was interesting)
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-173008
http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-159178
http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2009/db1002/DOC-293803A1.txt
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/dir-005/_0727.htm

I hope that helps.


----------



## syphix

HoTat2 said:


> And in addition you and others may want to check out Tom's excellent post on this topic back in early October for the layman;
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2238506#post2238506


EXCELLENT post that helps clarify a lot. But still the "unknown" remains: (a) What does DirecTV intend to use BSS for exactly? More channels, broadband data/internet? (b) Will D12's BSS payload be used for actual customer use, or still for more testing (perhaps field testing with select customers)?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> EXCELLENT post that helps clarify a lot. But still the "unknown" remains: (a) What does DirecTV intend to use BSS for exactly? More channels, broadband data/internet? (b) Will D12's BSS payload be used for actual customer use, or still for more testing (perhaps field testing with select customers)?


Initial guess is to satisfy the future LiL must carry. Must carry ALL HD local if any local. Recent regulation starting in future.


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> EXCELLENT post that helps clarify a lot. But still the "unknown" remains: (a) What does DirecTV intend to use BSS for exactly? More channels, broadband data/internet? (b) Will D12's BSS payload be used for actual customer use, or still for more testing (perhaps field testing with select customers)?


No one knows. There's lots of speculation but that's all, so far (publicly anyway). In any event, the FCC authorization and license if direct-to-home service, so those four spotbeams cannot be used for backhauling (as some have speculated) without a modification of those licenses. I think it's possible BSS will be used to provide more locals and RSNs, plus perhaps some specialty content, like high-speed background data "push" services (for faster-than-realtime movie downloads to DVRs, etc).

Time will tell.


----------



## sdk009

Did the FCC ever rule about LIL sub-channels carriage? Maybe this is where D12's BSS will come into play.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion LL;
> 
> But that comparison list posted earlier by Sixto does not list the inclination histories to see if the Boeing sequence is indeed followed. Particularly how it varied for D10 on days 2, 3, and 4 prior to its perigee rising significantly on day 6.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2315517#post2315517
> 
> Unless there is another comparison list I'm not aware of you're referring to.


Here's a start ... day from launch, TLE#, Low, High, Long, Lat, and inclination for both D10 and D12:


Code:


D10  D10  D10 D10   D10    D10	   D10	  D12   D12 D12	 D12   D12     D12    D12
Day  TLE  Low High  Long   Lat	  Inclin  Day   TLE Low	 High  Long    Lat    Inclin
0.11   1  414 35813 58.51  -0.03  45.54  0.15  1    424 35759 128.96  - 1.05  45.52
0.58   2 4900 35783 130.95  0.00  21.40  0.62  5   5090 35740 131.11  - 0.01  20.58
                                         0.72  2   5087 35793 128.96   15.32  20.58
                                         0.75  3   5084 35795 127.13   11.56  20.57
                                         0.76  4   5087 35793 127.37   10.81  20.55
2.09   3 4919 35792 58.45  -1.86  21.34

Heading out ... be back tonight ...


----------



## Sixto

Update#5 replaced. sometimes weird at beginning.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-30-2009 15:33:44
Orbit # at Epoch	3
Inclination		20.585
RA of A. Node		98.953
Eccentricity		0.5720011
Argument of Perigee	0.024
Revs per day		1.97958530
Period			12h 07m 25s (727.42 min)
Semi-major axis		26 793 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 089 x 35 740 km
Element number / age	5 / 0 day(s)

Lon			126.3436° E
Lat			0.0208° N
Alt (km)		5 057.248

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]   [u]Chg-Hrs[/u]  [u]  Day [/u]  [u] Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
005 12-30-2009 15:33:44  5 089 x 35 740  +21.06H  @ 1.63D  126.34°   0.02°N  20.59°
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .17H  @  .76D  127.27°  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .80H  @  .75D  127.13°  11.56°N  20.57°
002 12-29-2009 17:32:06  5,087 x 35,793  + 2.22H  @  .72D  128.96°  15.32°N  20.58°
005 12-29-2009 15:18:56  5 090 x 35 740  +11.34H  @  .62D  131.11°   0.01°S  20.58°
001 12-29-2009 03:58:40    424 x 35,759  + 3.61H  @  .15D  128.96°   1.05°S  45.52°


----------



## syphix

Do TLE's get issued when an object changes trajectory, or (better phrased) what causes a TLE to get issued?


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> Wait...
> 
> The batteries are meant to power the whole satellite's normal functions between recharges. Since the broadcasting power is turned off right now, the batteries should be able to provide weeks? months? of power to just the guidance and telemetry systems.
> 
> Or am I missing something?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Seems to be that way from the published specs on power consumption where the great majority of power requirements are for the payloads and not the satellite bus. Therefore I would assume the batteries are more than sufficient to power the spacecraft bus in the interim before deployment of the solar panels.

Don't know if the solar panels can supply any sort of partial power while folded up though...



*Spacecraft Subsystem*
|
*Electrical Power (Watts) At Beginning of Life At Equinox*
|
*At Solstice*
|
*Electrical Power (Watts) At End of Life At Equinox*
|
*At Solstice*

|
Payload (Watts)|16,000|16,000|16,000|16,000
|
Bus (Watts)|1,800|700|1,800|700
|
Solar Array (Watts)|22,000|19,650|18,500|17,200
|
Depth of Battery Discharge %|80|0|80|0


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Here's a start ... day from launch, TLE#, Low, High, Long, Lat, and inclination for both D10 and D12:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> D10  D10  D10 D10   D10    D10	   D10	  D12   D12 D12	 D12   D12     D12    D12
> Day  TLE  Low High  Long   Lat	  Inclin  Day   TLE Low	 High  Long    Lat    Inclin
> 0.11   1  414 35813 58.51  -0.03  45.54  0.15  1    424 35759 128.96  - 1.05  45.52
> 0.58   2 4900 35783 130.95  0.00  21.40  0.62  5   5090 35740 131.11  - 0.01  20.58
> 0.72  2   5087 35793 128.96   15.32  20.58
> 0.75  3   5084 35795 127.13   11.56  20.57
> 0.76  4   5087 35793 127.37   10.81  20.55
> 2.09   3 4919 35792 58.45  -1.86  21.34
> 
> Heading out ... be back tonight ...


Ok;

Take your time. If that "Boeing Sequence" posted earlier is the one D10 and now 12 will actually take then the reduction in inclination from approx. 20.6° to 0° must take place relatively fast over the course of 3-4 days by means of the liquid propulsion system.


----------



## xylo

HoTat2 said:


> And I would add that if this Boeing deployment sequence is the one actually followed by D12 then I would expect the forthcoming TLEs will mainly show reducing angles of inclination and not any real changes in orbital eccentricity until 0° inclination is reached.


Agreed. This is what I was trying to reconcile. This could mean that first deployment hasn't happened yet which is what I was trying to determine. If that is the case, then first deployment will happen when they hit zero inclindation and then the xips burns will start, provided they are following the described deployment sequence.

Heh they move so slow it feels like this is a game of "the 'little' satellite that could". It's fun to watch.


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Do TLE's get issued when an object changes trajectory, or (better phrased) what causes a TLE to get issued?


When Space Command radars paint the spacecraft or other tracking assets get a position and state vector fix (optical or IR sensors for instance) and there's a significant change, Space Command will process the data and release a new element set. Low earth objects and national security targets get higher priority of course (and some national security objects of specific interest never have publicly-released element sets).


----------



## joshjr

Sixto said:


> Initial guess is to satisfy the future LiL must carry. Must carry ALL HD local if any local. Recent regulation starting in future.


That hasnt been passed yet. We dont know for sure yet if that will happen or not. Another option is to give In-State-Out-of-DMA locals to people that dont have them. From what I understand that would take care of most left without locals.


----------



## raoul5788

joshjr said:


> That hasnt been passed yet. We dont know for sure yet if that will happen or not. Another option is to give In-State-Out-of-DMA locals to people that dont have them. From what I understand that would take care of most left without locals.


In state out of dma locals could be handled now. The spotbeams aren't that big, except maybe in some of the western states. Here in CT, the NY spotbeam reaches to Boston, or nearly.


----------



## sat2631

Here is a picture of the inclination from TLE 1 and 4. If it follows the D10 time line, it will be at about 21 degrees for about six days, then be at about 15 degrees for one day, then go to about six degrees.


----------



## evan_s

syphix said:


> EXCELLENT post that helps clarify a lot. But still the "unknown" remains: (a) What does DirecTV intend to use BSS for exactly? More channels, broadband data/internet? (b) Will D12's BSS payload be used for actual customer use, or still for more testing (perhaps field testing with select customers)?


That is a good question but we don't know yet for sure.

The current filing with the FCC is for service to the home as mentioned. These 4 spotbeams seem to share a single uplink center which is sending the same feed the all 4 spotbeams and was for multiple Transponders. This would seem to indicate it is sending the same thing to all 4 locations. Not what you would typically expect for locals.

What ever it is it will probably require an updated LNB or additional side dish.


----------



## P Smith

Reading FCC document, as we discuss above, you will find the BSS signal will not be modulated. So, no one LNBF will help you get SS reading, nor talking about other data.


----------



## joshjr

raoul5788 said:


> In state out of dma locals could be handled now. The spotbeams aren't that big, except maybe in some of the western states. Here in CT, the NY spotbeam reaches to Boston, or nearly.


Where I live the In-State-Out-Of-DMA locals are 65-85 miles away and the spot beam reaches that far.


----------



## ejjames

Sorry for not reading more of this excellent thread, but if this is a Boeing 702, what were D10 and D11?

Could someone explain the difference in a nutshell?


----------



## P Smith

ejjames said:


> Sorry for not reading more of this excellent thread, but if this is a Boeing 702, what were D10 and D11?
> 
> Could someone explain the difference in a nutshell?


Same. Here.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Reading FCC document, as we discuss above, you will find the BSS signal will not be modulated.


The testing STA application and supporting documents indicate that testing will be done with unmodulated signals. That's not what the Schedule S shows for the RB-2A payload itself for operational use.


----------



## P Smith

The BSS use at 102.85W wasn't granted by FCC anyway.


----------



## bobnielsen

ejjames said:


> Sorry for not reading more of this excellent thread, but if this is a Boeing 702, what were D10 and D11?
> 
> Could someone explain the difference in a nutshell?


The Boeing 702 designates the basic spacecraft used by D10, D11, D12, as well as Spaceway 1 & 2 and several non-Directv missions. See http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/about/orders.html#702.

There are hardware differences (transponders, antennas, etc.) between the different versions.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> The BSS use at 102.85W wasn't granted by FCC anyway.


Not yet, at least. I suspect that it will probably be granted with some changes and possibly require negotiations on sharing with Ciel.


----------



## dreadlk

Hooked up my Spectrum analyzer and cranked my dish to the coordinates that its at now and after about an hour of tuning I was able to get a pretty good picture from Travel channel HD. Sweet, can't wait till it's in a proper orbit. Cant believe it will take months:nono2: (chum set, hook is out)


----------



## richall01

Follow location of DirecTV 12
http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


----------



## Sixto

richall01 said:


> Follow location of DirecTV 12
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


A note from the D11 thread ... same applies to D12 ...

Note: The n2yo site shows the simulated path of D11 based on the last D11 TLE. "Live Tracking" is not really "live", but rather an extrapolation based on the last TLE. Also, the n2yo site does not always have the latest TLE. There can be several hours before the n2yo site updates with the latest TLE, and there can be several days between official TLE's.

The n2yo site is currently using D12 TLE#4, TLE#5 is the latest. But it's a good site for casual observation.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> The BSS use at 102.85W wasn't granted by FCC anyway.


Yet. Authority to construct and launch to that location was granted, however. And when authority is granted to operate, it won't be with an unmodulated carrier signal.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> A note from the D11 thread ... same applies to D12 ...
> 
> Note: The n2yo site shows the simulated path of D11 based on the last D11 TLE. "Live Tracking" is not really "live", but rather an extrapolation based on the last TLE. Also, the n2yo site does not always have the latest TLE. There can be several hours before the n2yo site updates with the latest TLE, and there can be several days between official TLE's.
> 
> The n2yo site is currently using D12 TLE#4, TLE#5 is the latest. But it's a good site for casual observation.


Basically, n2yo sucks


----------



## Sixto

there's a new update#6 but it slightly older then last #5 ... will add it later ...

Edit: Added to post#1. It was 2 seconds earlier then #5.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> The BSS use at 102.85W wasn't granted by FCC anyway.





LameLefty said:


> Yet. Authority to construct and launch to that location was granted, however. And when authority is granted to operate, it won't be with an unmodulated carrier signal.


+1 here, not sure where you're going on this P. Smith. You seem to mixing the prospective (pending FCC approval) in orbit testing for the BSS package at 76° which will indeed use unmodulated carriers for testing and gain transfer mapping of the spotbeam transponders. With the actual BSS service (again pending FCC approval) set for D12's assigned 102.765° slot that will use a 36M0G7W emission with 4-PSK, 34,800 bps uncoded data rate and an FEC ratio of 0.58 (according to the Schedule S listing for RB-2A).


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> Yet. Authority to construct and launch to that location was granted, however. And when authority is granted to operate, it won't be with an unmodulated carrier signal.


Well I would hope that DirecTV planned to eventually modulate the signal in some way.


----------



## Sixto

Thought this was interesting ... first two weeks for D10 ... we'll see as we compare to D12:


Code:


D10	D10	D10	D10	D10	D10	D10
Day	TLE	Low	High	Long	Lat	Inc
0.11	1	414	35813	58.51W	0.03S	45.54
0.58	2	4900	35783	130.95E	0.00S	21.40
2.09	3	4919	35792	58.45W	1.85S	21.34
2.59	4	4922	36536	123.90E	0.01S	21.33
3.11	5	4921	36526	61.23W	0.18N	21.33
4.20	6	4923	37127	22.76E	18.63N	21.30
4.66	8	4921	37130	98.53E	0.00S	21.30
4.66	7	4921	37130	98.63E	0.04N	21.30
5.97	11	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
5.97	12	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
5.97	10	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
6.25	13	8290	37082	115.03W	0.16S	14.61
6.82	14	8308	37083	39.23E	0.05S	14.63
7.32	16	17992	37082	142.47W	0.19S	5.86
8.04	17	17994	37083	42.18W	0.19S	5.86
8.75	18	17994	37083	58.08E	0.19S	5.86
9.47	19	17994	37084	158.34E	0.19S	5.86
9.50	20	31297	37102	149.24W	0.81N	0.88
10.39	21	31290	37120	132.27W	0.64N	0.91
11.72	22	34206	37119	111.55W	0.02S	0.16
12.29	23	34100	37245	105.75W	0.13N	0.20
13.44	26	34099	37129	100.59W	0.17N	0.19
14.06	27	34088	37109	100.59W	0.17N	0.19


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Thought this was interesting ... first two weeks for D10 ... we'll see as we compare to D12:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> D10	D10	D10	D10	D10	D10	D10
> Day	TLE	Low	High	Long	Lat	Inc
> 0.11	1	414	35813	58.51W	0.03S	45.54
> 0.58	2	4900	35783	130.95E	0.00S	21.40
> 2.09	3	4919	35792	58.45W	1.85S	21.34
> 2.59	4	4922	36536	123.90E	0.01S	21.33
> 3.11	5	4921	36526	61.23W	0.18N	21.33
> 4.20	6	4923	37127	22.76E	18.63N	21.30
> 4.66	8	4921	37130	98.53E	0.00S	21.30
> 4.66	7	4921	37130	98.63E	0.04N	21.30
> 5.97	11	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
> 5.97	12	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
> 5.97	10	8277	37105	167.57E	0.26S	14.61
> 6.25	13	8290	37082	115.03W	0.16S	14.61
> 6.82	14	8308	37083	39.23E	0.05S	14.63
> 7.32	16	17992	37082	142.47W	0.19S	5.86
> 8.04	17	17994	37083	42.18W	0.19S	5.86
> 8.75	18	17994	37083	58.08E	0.19S	5.86
> 9.47	19	17994	37084	158.34E	0.19S	5.86
> 9.50	20	31297	37102	149.24W	0.81N	0.88
> 10.39	21	31290	37120	132.27W	0.64N	0.91
> 11.72	22	34206	37119	111.55W	0.02S	0.16
> 12.29	23	34100	37245	105.75W	0.13N	0.20
> 13.44	26	34099	37129	100.59W	0.17N	0.19
> 14.06	27	34088	37109	100.59W	0.17N	0.19


Hmmm ...

This history indicates a much greater combination of simultaneous circularization and inclination reduction than the earlier posted Boeing Sequence illustration would suggest. Which seemed a much more sequential process of first reducing the inclination down to ~0° using the liquid propulsion system followed by a circularization phase done mainly with the XIPS thrusters.


----------



## cartrivision

HoTat2 said:


> Tried two different web-browsers, this image is not loading for some reason cartrivision


Sorry. The attached image has been fixed in the original post and is also repeated below....










This is a plot of the track of one revolution around Earth of D12 (using TLE 4).


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> +1 here, not sure where you're going on this P. Smith. You seem to mixing the prospective (pending FCC approval) in orbit testing for the BSS package at 76° which will indeed use unmodulated carriers for testing and gain transfer mapping of the spotbeam transponders. With the actual BSS service (again pending FCC approval) set for D12's assigned 102.765° slot that will use a 36M0G7W emission with 4-PSK, 34,800 bps uncoded data rate and an FEC ratio of 0.58 (according to the Schedule S listing for RB-2A).


I'm not 'going' - don't need do such assignment, just observing ... Will see what D12 will do as BSS source at final destination in next quarter. So far FCC did not grant that type of emission what DTV described in Schedule S. As you could imagine without FCC grant the paper will be a paper. Lets count chicken after hatch.


----------



## smiddy

cartrivision said:


> Sorry. The attached image has been fixed in the original post and is also repeated below....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a plot of the track of one revolution around Earth of D12 (using TLE 4).


Nice perspective on it, thanks!


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> Sorry. The attached image has been fixed in the original post and is also repeated below....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a plot of the track of one revolution around Earth of D12 (using TLE 4).


Thanks;

An interesting and also "weird" ground track;

But understandable I guess considering such a largely elliptical orbit with an apogee near geosynchronous, at ~20.6° inclination and a perigee and apogee aligned with the orbit's ascending and descending nodes at the equator.

That retrograde curve in the ground track is obviously caused by the satellite's reduced velocity in movement toward apogee, with apogee itself located at the center of it at 0° lat. And the much longer prograde slope is caused by the satellite's lengthy fall back from apogee toward perigee. Then from perigee back toward apogee with the perigee point itself again at the center of the slope at 0° lat.

See, so easy a caveman can understand it ... :lol:


----------



## loudo

cartrivision said:


> This is a plot of the track of one revolution around Earth of D12 (using TLE 4).


Great graphic, that makes it easy to understand.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Nice perspective on it, thanks!





HoTat2 said:


> Thanks;
> 
> An interesting and also "weird" ground track;
> 
> But understandable I guess considering such a largely elliptical orbit with an apogee near geosynchronous, at ~20.6° inclination and a perigee and apogee aligned with the orbit's ascending and descending nodes at the equator.
> 
> That retrograde curve in the ground track is obviously caused by the satellite's reduced velocity in movement toward apogee, with apogee itself located at the center of it at 0° lat. And the much longer prograde slope is caused by the satellite's lengthy fall back from apogee toward perigee. Then from perigee back toward apogee with the perigee point itself again at the center of the slope at 0° lat.
> 
> See, so easy a caveman can understand it ... :lol:





loudo said:


> Great graphic, that makes it easy to understand.


Ahem . . . someone posted a similar ground track quite awhile ago . . .

D12 Ground Track


----------



## Sixto

As with D10/D11. will continue to update post#1 with the following, for those that like pictures.

In layman's terms, the goal is for D12 to look like D10. 

There's also a 3D version with the relationship to the equator, but will use this one for a while as D12 first just gets circular.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thanks for that latest illustration Sixto.

Now I can put my crayons away.


----------



## steveken

Sixto said:


> As with D10/D11. will continue to update post#1 with the following, for those that like pictures.
> 
> In layman's terms, the goal is for D12 to look like D10.
> 
> There's also a 3D version with the relationship to the equator, but will use this one for a while as D12 first just gets circular.


I can never remember which program gives pics like that. I can only remember orbitron for general tracking. They just don't launch enough satellites for me to keep this straight in my head I guess.


----------



## Sixto

#7 ... same ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-31-2009 15:48:28
Orbit # at Epoch	5
Inclination		20.588
RA of A. Node		98.865
Eccentricity		0.5719291
Argument of Perigee	0.171
Revs per day		1.97975324
Period			12h 07m 21s (727.35 min)
Semi-major axis		26 791 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 090 x 35 736 km
Element number / age	7 / 0 day(s)

Lon			121.6924° E
Lat			0.0634° N
Alt (km)		5 058.240

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u]  [u]  Day [/u]   [u]  Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
007 12-31-2009 15:48:28  5,090 x 35 736  +24.25H  @ 2.64D  121.69°E   0.06°N  20.59°
005 12-30-2009 15:33:44  5,089 x 35,740  +  .00H  @ 1.63D  126.34°E   0.02°N  20.59°
006 12-30-2009 15:33:42  5,088 x 35,741  +21.06H  @ 1.63D  126.28°E   0.00°S  20.59°
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .17H  @  .76D  127.27°W  10.81°N  20.55°
003 12-29-2009 18:19:52  5,084 x 35,795  +  .80H  @  .75D  127.13°W  11.56°N  20.57°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2210441&postcount=1"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Ahem . . . someone posted a similar ground track quite awhile ago . . .
> 
> D12 Ground Track


I must have missed it Herb, yours looks nice too, sir!


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Ahem . . . someone posted a similar ground track quite awhile ago . . .
> 
> D12 Ground Track


Yep you're right LL;

I must have reminded myself about a dozen times to go back and review that clip from your earlier post there, but just flat out never did for some reason. No excuses, sorry about that ... :imwith:

However, it is still an interesting and strange ground track nevertheless, and enlightening since I originally thought the satellite was performing a large figure-8 pattern as seen from earth at this point.


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> I must have reminded myself about a dozen times to go back and review that clip from your earlier post there, but just flat out never did for some reason. No excuses, sorry about that ... :imwith:


*DITTO!*


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Yep you're right LL;
> 
> I must have reminded myself about a dozen times to go back and review that clip from your earlier post there, but just flat out never did for some reason. No excuses, sorry about that ... :imwith:
> 
> However, it is still an interesting and strange ground track nevertheless, and enlightening since I originally thought the satellite was performing a large figure-8 pattern as seen from earth at this point.


 You saw that for sats on polar orbit, like XM/Sirius.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> You saw that for sats on polar orbit, like XM/Sirius.


Figure-8 ground tracks produced by polar orbits?

I thought the ground tracks for polar orbiting satellites are of the common repeating bell curve type but extending from pole to pole in peak latitudes.

I think a truly noticeable figure-8 ground track types are generated by various inclined elliptical geosynchronous orbits.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> You saw that for sats on polar orbit, like XM/Sirius.


XM's satellites are geostationary, Sirius uses the tundra orbit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tundra_orbit


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Figure-8 ground tracks produced by polar orbits?
> 
> I thought the ground tracks for polar orbiting satellites are of the common repeating bell curve type but extending from pole to pole in peak latitudes.
> 
> I think a truly noticeable figure-8 ground track is generated by an inclined light to mildly elliptical geosynchronous orbit.


Analemma.com


----------



## Sixto

The view from slightly above the equator, looking at a cross section of the earth.

The shade is the equator (looking from slightly above), with D10 in geostationary mapping to the equator, and the relative placement of D12 moving above and below, elliptical.


----------



## smiddy

Nice view Sixto!


----------



## Sixto

TLE's one after another!

#9 on the way ...


----------



## HoTat2

Got it;

Thanks for the links. Corrected my prior post on the causes of figure-8 ground tracks ...


----------



## Sixto

top of orbit (apogee) up significantly:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			00009
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-31-2009 17:16:34
Orbit # at Epoch	5
Inclination		20.519
RA of A. Node		98.831
Eccentricity		0.5917642
Argument of Perigee	0.103
Revs per day		1.84228859
Period			13h 01m 38s (781.63 min)
Semi-major axis		28 108 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 097 x 38 363 km
Element number / age	9 / 0 day(s)

Lon			147.7469° W
Lat			19.0982° N
Alt (km)		16 873.770

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u]  [u]Chg-Hrs[/u]  [u]  Day [/u]   [u]  Long  [/u]  [u]  Lat  [/u]  [u]Inclin[/u]
009 12-31-2009 17:16:34  5 097 x 38,363  + 1.47H  @ 2.70D  147.75°E  19.10°N  20.52°
007 12-31-2009 15:48:28  5,090 x 35,736  +24.25H  @ 2.64D  121.69°E   0.06°N  20.59°
005 12-30-2009 15:33:44  5,089 x 35,740  +  .00H  @ 1.63D  126.34°E   0.02°N  20.59°
006 12-30-2009 15:33:42  5,088 x 35,741  +21.06H  @ 1.63D  126.28°E   0.00°S  20.59°
004 12-29-2009 18:30:07  5,087 x 35,793  +  .17H  @  .76D  127.27°W  10.81°N  20.55°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history


----------



## LameLefty

Current ground track . . .


----------



## Sixto

Have cleaned up the beginning of the thread.

Post#1 now has the latest DirecTV-12 info post-launch.

Post#2 has all the historical info.


----------



## Sixto

Geez! Update#11 is out. Can't keep up, got a New Years to go celebrate!

Will post the #11 update and then gone for the night ...


----------



## LameLefty

Here's a view from the equator, centered on 103ºW, based on the newest TLE.


----------



## Sixto

similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		12-31-2009 21:24:51
Orbit # at Epoch	5
Inclination		20.525
RA of A. Node		98.810
Eccentricity		0.5917168
Argument of Perigee	0.122
Revs per day		1.84285177
Period			13h 01m 23s (781.38 min)
Semi-major axis		28 102 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 096 x 38 353 km
Element number / age	11 / 0 day(s)

Lon			150.2221° W
Lat			2.7561° N
Alt (km)		37 757.810

[U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u]
011 12-31-2009 21:24:51  5 096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°
009 12-31-2009 17:16:34  5 097 x 38,363 + 1.47H @ 2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°
007 12-31-2009 15:48:28  5,090 x 35,736 +24.25H @ 2.64D 121.69°E  0.06°N 20.59°
005 12-30-2009 15:33:44  5,089 x 35,740 +  .00H @ 1.63D 126.34°E  0.02°N 20.59°
006 12-30-2009 15:33:42  5,088 x 35,741 +21.06H @ 1.63D 126.28°E  0.00°S 20.59°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history


----------



## doctor j

From jsat: 
D-10 and D-12_TLE #11

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

I wonder if DirecTV has guys that track DirecTV-12 as well as this team does. 

Certainly not on New Years Eve night! 

Lots of good views with the different programs from everyone.

Happy New Year!


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> I wonder if DirecTV has guys that track DirecTV-12 as well as this team does.
> 
> Certainly not on New Years Eve night!
> 
> Lots of good views with the different programs from everyone.
> 
> Happy New Year!


Have a good safe night sir!

Someone has to mind the candy store so I suspect someone is there.


----------



## LameLefty

Our plans got cancelled tonight since Mrs. Lefty came down with a bad cold. I'm sure Dr. J and I and a few others will catch any new TLE's that pop up and post some info until our good friend Sixto gets back from his party.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Our plans got cancelled tonight since Mrs. Lefty came down with a bad cold. I'm sure Dr. J and I and a few others will catch any new TLE's that pop up and post some info until our good friend Sixto gets back from his party.


I hope this doesn't hinder your plans for Saturday.  I hope she feels better! Give here some TLC man!


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> Our plans got cancelled tonight since Mrs. Lefty came down with a bad cold. I'm sure Dr. J and I and a few others will catch any new TLE's that pop up and post some info until our good friend Sixto gets back from his party.


My New Years resolution may need to be to "get a life"!

NO!

I can't wait to get D-12 operational and I can see at least a 4 month campaign of TLE's, PID's and all manner of internet, TSReader and DBSTalk data searches!!!

Oh well: Maybe 2011??:lol:

Doctor j


----------



## jefbal99

doctor j said:


> My New Years resolution may need to be to "get a life"!
> 
> NO!
> 
> I can't wait to get D-12 operational and I can see at least a 4 month campaign of TLE's, PID's and all manner of internet, TSReader and DBSTalk data searches!!!
> 
> Oh well: Maybe 2011??:lol:
> 
> Doctor j


Speaking of PIDs, I need to get my Desktop back online and start using that TwinHan card to track this stuff again


----------



## ejjames

My wife and I were driving 500 miles back home the day of the launch. I said..."How much of a geek does it make me to be down about missing the launch of the new DirecTv satellite?"

She admitted it doesn't get much geekier.

Happy New Year!


----------



## corpx

So, does anyone have a link to all the new channels this thing will add? I'm too lazy to look through 73 pages


----------



## Garry

corpx said:


> So, does anyone have a link to all the new channels this thing will add? I'm too lazy to look through 73 pages


No one knows what channels will be added. We will all have to wait and see.

Happy New Year!!:balloons::balloons::balloons::balloons:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer knows but his boss said he's not allowed to tell.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I know exactly which channels are scheduled to launch on D12. Problem is they are subject to change... 

(Just kidding on the I know part... not so much on the subject to change part.) 

Happy New Year!!!


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> I know exactly which channels are scheduled to launch on D12. Problem is they are subject to change...
> 
> (Just kidding on the I know part... not so much on the subject to change part.)
> 
> Happy New Year!!!


You kill me (and everyone else)! Dirty dirty man you are, all in fun of course. 

EDIT: Happy New Year to you and Yours!


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-01-2010 04:49:48
Orbit # at Epoch	6
Inclination		20.523
RA of A. Node		98.761
Eccentricity		0.5916800
Argument of Perigee	0.207
Revs per day		1.84286406
Period			13h 01m 23s (781.38 min)
Semi-major axis		28 102 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 097 x 38 352 km
Element number / age	12 / 0 day(s)

Lon			74.4771° W
Lat			0.0116° S
Alt (km)		5 060.103

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
[B][COLOR="Blue"]012 01-01-2010 04:49:48  5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°[/COLOR][/B]
011 12-31-2009 21:24:51  5,096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°
009 12-31-2009 17:16:34  5,097 x [COLOR="Red"][B]38,363[/B][/COLOR] + 1.47H @ 2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°
007 12-31-2009 15:48:28  5,090 x 35,736 +24.25H @ 2.64D 121.69°E  0.06°N 20.59°
005 12-30-2009 15:33:44  5,089 x 35,740 +  .00H @ 1.63D 126.34°E  0.02°N 20.59°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I re-watched the launch video yesterday, just to review the added content information about D12.

It would appear that they will have some significant capacity for perhaps 2+ years going forward at this point. D14 will be the next bird, perhaps in 2012 or beyond.

In any case, based on the latest updates on the mission, everything is moving along very smoothly with D12 so far. The next critical dates should be when they do their telemetry tests on the sat transponders...


Tom Robertson said:


> I know exactly which channels are scheduled to launch on D12. Problem is they are subject to change...
> 
> (Just kidding on the I know part... not so much on the subject to change part.)
> 
> Happy New Year!!!


I could have sworn I saw you standing in the clean room next to D12 wearing one of those white hospital gowns and hats.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I could have sworn I saw you standing in the clean room next to D12 wearing one of those white hospital gowns and hats.


Tom gets around, that is for sure!

DirecTV - 12 will have a huge impact on the industry I'm thinking. This quarter can't finish soon enough for me.


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> TLE  Date  Time GMT Perigee Apogee Chg-Hrs  Day   Long   Lat  Inclin
> Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786 76.00°W 0.00°N 0.00°
> *012 01-01-2010 04:49:48 5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D 74.48°W 0.01°S 20.52°*
> 011 12-31-2009 21:24:51 5,096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E 2.76°N 20.52°
> 009 12-31-2009 17:16:34 5,097 x 38,363 + 1.47H @ 2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°
> 007 12-31-2009 15:48:28 5,090 x 35,736 +24.25H @ 2.64D 121.69°E 0.06°N 20.59°
> 005 12-30-2009 15:33:44 5,089 x 35,740 + .00H @ 1.63D 126.34°E 0.02°N 20.59°


They aren't changing much. I wonder if there really haven't been any maneuvers and the different TLEs just represent a refinement of the NORAD data?


----------



## doctor j

bobnielsen said:


> They aren't changing much. I wonder if there really haven't been any maneuvers and the different TLEs just represent a refinement of the NORAD data?


A definite move between TLE #7 and #9. Apogee now outside GSO circle.
Others as close together as they are most likely just refinement of data.

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

Have tweaked the format. 

Added the current target in BLUE and will highlight any significant change in RED. Also limiting the actual TLE to post#1 to avoid any concerns.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Ok sorry to ask this again, but did the solar panels open up yet, or do they not do that until its parked?

Thanks


----------



## hdtvfan0001

TheRatPatrol said:


> Ok sorry to ask this again, but did the solar panels open up yet, or do they not do that until its parked?
> 
> Thanks


I was wondering when they did that as well...I don't think that happens at least until its at its general final location....but the rocket scientists here can't help inform us on that.


----------



## HoTat2

TheRatPatrol said:


> Ok sorry to ask this again, but did the solar panels open up yet, or do they not do that until its parked?
> 
> Thanks


If this Boeing document found earlier by a poster named "xylo" is followed by D12 I would say "not yet," but the unfurling of the solar panels (and other antennas) actually occurs during a phase called "First Deployment" which takes place sometime after the orbital inclination reaches 0° and the period is 24 hrs though still eccentric.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20722&d=1262155364


----------



## Sixto

Cooler launch Video:


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would appear that they will have some significant capacity for perhaps 2+ years going forward at this point. D14 will be the next bird, perhaps in 2012 or beyond.


At this time, DirecTV does not offer currently available HD versions for 57 channels that they currently carry in SD (that's counting Versus, but not other RSNs, so you can count it lower, but it will probably be higher). About a dozen or so more have plans announced for later this year. That's also not counting Hallmark Movie Channel HD which was announced a year or two ago as coming to DirecTV.... or counting a channel I want (CW HD-DNS that doubles as a "regional" CW-HD for HD-LIL markets without a CW).

As long as they don't go after some of the more "niche" programming (which appears doubtful given past comments) or expanding into offering HD versions of channels they don't currently carry in their premium suites, you very well could be right.

*NOTE:* While researching the HD channels missing from DirecTV, I realized I have Showtime turned on.... no telling how long it's been on. 

~Alan


----------



## bidger

Alan Gordon said:


> *NOTE:* While researching the HD channels missing from DirecTV, I realized I have Showtime turned on.... no telling how long it's been on.
> 
> ~Alan


Probably since your anniversary month.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Cooler launch Video:


rawk, pretty bird! pretty bird! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE's this morning, Sixto. Not much change, however.


----------



## Sixto

Yep. Thx. Similar:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-02-2010 06:52:28
Orbit # at Epoch	8
Inclination		20.522
RA of A. Node		98.613
Eccentricity		0.5917942
Argument of Perigee	0.435
Revs per day		1.84291582
Period			13h 01m 22s (781.37 min)
Semi-major axis		28 102 km
Perigee x Apogee	5 093 x 38 354 km
Element number / age	13 / 0 day(s)

Lon			106.3538° W
Lat			0.0108° S
Alt (km)		5 058.492

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
013 01-02-2010 06:52:28  5 093 x 38 354 +26.04H @ 4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°[/COLOR][/B]
012 01-01-2010 04:49:48  5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°
011 12-31-2009 21:24:51  5,096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°
009 12-31-2009 17:16:34  5,097 x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,363[/COLOR][/B] + 1.47H @ 2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°
007 12-31-2009 15:48:28  5,090 x 35,736 +24.25H @ 2.64D 121.69°E  0.06°N 20.59°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

D12 and D10 still fairly similar:


Code:


[B]D10	D10	D10	D10		D12	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day[/u]	[u]Low[/u]	[u]High[/u]	[u]Inclin[/u]		[u]Day[/u]	[u]Low[/u]	[u]High[/u]	[u]Inclin[/U][/B]
0.11	414	35813	45.54		0.15	424	35759	45.52
0.58	4900	35783	21.40		0.62	5090	35740	20.58
					0.72	5087	35793	20.58
					0.75	5084	35795	20.57
					0.76	5087	35793	20.55
					1.63	5088	35741	20.59
					1.63	5089	35740	20.59
2.09	4919	35792	21.34					
2.59	4922	36536	21.33		2.64	5090	35736	20.59
					2.70	5097	38363	20.52
					2.88	5096	38353	20.52
3.11	4921	36526	21.33		3.19	5097	38352	20.52
4.20	4923	37127	21.30		4.27	5093	38354	20.52
4.66	4921	37130	21.30					
4.66	4921	37130	21.30					
5.97	8277	37105	14.61					
5.97	8277	37105	14.61					
5.97	8277	37105	14.61					
6.25	8290	37082	14.61					
6.82	8308	37083	14.63					
7.32	17992	37082	5.86					
8.04	17994	37083	5.86					
8.75	17994	37083	5.86					
9.47	17994	37084	5.86					
9.50	31297	37102	0.88					
10.39	31290	37120	0.91					
11.72	34206	37119	0.16					
12.29	34100	37245	0.20					
13.44	34099	37129	0.19					
14.06	34088	37109	0.19


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

ILS's site is reporting the final step is complete (departure charter).

http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control


----------



## HoTat2

Seems that way so far;

Therefore I would guess we should expect to see a significant increase in perigee and drop in inclination between around the 4th and 6th days then.

Or sometime between now and Tuesday



Sixto said:


> *D12 and D10 still fairly similar*:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]D10	D10	D10	D10		D12	D12	D12	D12
> [U]Day[/u]	[u]Low[/u]	[u]High[/u]	[u]Inclin[/u]		[u]Day[/u]	[u]Low[/u]	[u]High[/u]	[u]Inclin[/U][/B]
> 0.11	414	35813	45.54		0.15	424	35759	45.52
> 0.58	4900	35783	21.40		0.62	5090	35740	20.58
> 0.72	5087	35793	20.58
> 0.75	5084	35795	20.57
> 0.76	5087	35793	20.55
> 1.63	5088	35741	20.59
> 1.63	5089	35740	20.59
> 2.09	4919	35792	21.34
> 2.59	4922	36536	21.33		2.64	5090	35736	20.59
> 2.70	5097	38363	20.52
> 2.88	5096	38353	20.52
> 3.11	4921	36526	21.33		3.19	5097	38352	20.52
> 4.20	4923	37127	21.30		4.27	5093	38354	20.52
> 4.66	4921	37130	21.30
> 4.66	4921	37130	21.30
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 6.25	8290	37082	14.61
> 6.82	8308	37083	14.63
> 7.32	17992	37082	5.86
> 8.04	17994	37083	5.86
> 8.75	17994	37083	5.86
> 9.47	17994	37084	5.86
> 9.50	31297	37102	0.88
> 10.39	31290	37120	0.91
> 11.72	34206	37119	0.16
> 12.29	34100	37245	0.20
> 13.44	34099	37129	0.19
> 14.06	34088	37109	0.19


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> ILS's site is reporting the final step is complete (departure charter).
> 
> http://www.ilslaunch.com/dtv-12-mission-control


Saw that earlier this morning too.....guess they have done the "official handoff" now to the Boeing/DirecTV folks on D12.


----------



## MrDad0330

And I guess it means ILS gets paid...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Likely it meant all the paperwork was finished. Or the vodka, BBQ, and potato chips... 

With one last toast: "To next time!" 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Likely it meant all the paperwork was finished. Or the vodka, BBQ, and potato chips...
> 
> With one last toast: "To next time!"
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


....heavy winter coats....more vodka.....boots....more vodka....

I can only imagine the expense reports.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....heavy winter coats....more vodka.....boots....more vodka....
> 
> I can only imagine the expense reports.


Vodka is made from potatoes, potatoes are part of dinner, so it is a dinner staple, no problem.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Vodka is made from potatoes, *potatoes are part of dinner*, so it is a dinner staple, no problem.


Which is likely how the report was submitted. 

Glad to see things continue going so smoothly so far with D12...of course the real warm fuzzy will come with D12 is activated cleanly a few months from now.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Vodka is made from *potatoes*, potatoes are part of dinner, so it is a dinner staple, no problem.


Are prefer poland vodka ?  Russians use a corn to produce alcohol.


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Are prefer poland vodka ?  Russians use a corn to produce alcohol.


 Either is fine, still gets the ticket punched on the dinner menu. 

I am looking vorward to seeing some spectrum analyzer shots when you are able of this DirecTV - 12 bird.


----------



## P Smith

My SA is ready - any time.


----------



## DodgerKing

Does anybody know if the new bird will work on the current Slimline setup, or will you need to add another LNB?


----------



## carl6

DirecTV 12 will work with the existing Slimline dishes and LNB's.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

DodgerKing said:


> Does anybody know if the new bird will work on the current Slimline setup, or will you need to add another LNB?


It looks like DirecTV 12 will share the same 102.8° slot as DirecTV 10.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DodgerKing said:


> Does anybody know if the new bird will work on the current Slimline setup, or will you need to add another LNB?


Any of the new slimlines, both 5lnb and 3lnb will work with D12 for Ka. D12 fits in some of the Ka bandwidth that wasn't used to maximum effectiveness by SW1 and D10. Mostly the spotbeam frequencies can be shared by more spotbeams in different areas of the country, opening up more frequencies for the D12 nationals.

As for the new BSS frequencies, IF DIRECTV gets to use them as hoped, people served in those areas will need some form of new dish system. Likely a new LNB.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> ... *D12 fits in some of the Ka bandwidth that wasn't used to maximum effectiveness by SW1 and D10.* ... Cheers,
> Tom


SW1 perhaps, but did D10 (or 11) ever use any part of the Ka-hi band for any service as D12 will use?


----------



## Tom Robertson

D12 is both Ka-hi and Ka-lo. So it will be able to use some of the bandwidth from both D10 and SW1. (Sixto's post #1 is excellent for that data.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Seems to me an existing Ka LNBF with LOF=18.05 GHz will do that conversion to 250...750 MHz range (invert from BSS 17345-17700 MHz to 350...705 MHz).


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> SW1 perhaps, but did D10 (or 11) ever use any part of the Ka-hi band for any service as D12 will use?


SW1 has 103° Ka-Hi (19700-20200).

D10 has 103° Ka-Lo (18300-18800 MHz). 18300-18600 (TP1-14) for CONUS, 18600-18800 (TP15-24) for LiL.

D12 will use 103° Ka-Hi 19890-20200 (from SW1) for CONUS, and share 103° Ka-Lo 18600-18800 with D10 for LiL.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> Seems to me an existing Ka LNBF with LOF=18.05 GHz will do that conversion to 250...750 MHz range (invert from BSS 17345-17700 MHz to 350...705 MHz).


Which, of course, will be in the same i.f. range as D10 (as well as any D12 spots), but sharing should be possible between RB-2A and D10 spotbeams (not D10 CONUS, however).

Is there a list of which D10 transponder frequencies are used for spotbeams as opposed to CONUS?


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Which, of course, will be in the same i.f. range as D10, but sharing should be possible between RB-2A and D10 spotbeams (not D10 CONUS, however).
> 
> Is there a list of which D10 transponder frequencies are used for spotbeams as opposed to CONUS?


Posted 2 minutes before you asked. 

Also in post#1.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> SW1 has 103° Ka-Hi (19700-20200).
> 
> D10 has 103° Ka-Lo (18300-18800 MHz). 18300-18600 (TP1-14) for CONUS, 18600-18800 (TP15-24) for LiL.
> 
> D12 will use 103° Ka-Hi 19890-20200 (from SW1) for CONUS, and share 103° Ka-Lo 18600-18800 with D10 for LiL.


Yeah I understand that Sixto;

But Tom's post earlier seem to suggest that D10 "underutilized" the Ka-hi band as did SW1, and I didn't recall D10 (or 11) ever using the Ka-hi band at all, or at least for no direct subscriber service.

So I thought maybe Tom was inferring that D10 used the Ka-hi band for back-hauling or some other minor function.


----------



## HoTat2

Or IOW I thought D10 and 11 were strictly Ka B-band birds.


----------



## Tom Robertson

My impression is that D10 could reuse some of their spotbeam transponder frequencies and/or share with D12. That was what I meant by not maximizing bandwidth--D10 uses as many frequencies as possible to ensure they used the whole ka band to protect their license at that slot. Now that other birds are launching, they can start to maximize the number of spotbeams per frequency.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Yep, will be interesting to see how D10 and D12 share Ka-Lo 18600-18800.

I guess it all depends on how they've designed the D12 spots to complement, rather then replace, the D10 spots. Many of the public statements have talked about replacement, which always seemed weird unless there really is a need to turn off D10 spots.

Also have sometimes considered that they may want to turn back on D10 TP 15 & 16, and then spread the rest of the spectrum (18648-18800) between D10/D12.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Also have sometimes considered that they may want to turn back on D10 TP 15 & 16, and then spread the rest of the spectrum (18648-18800) between D10/D12.


To further expand this ...

The D12 Schedule-S is different for the first 40Mhz from 18600-18640, then the remainder of LiL. Has always made me wonder that D10 may again use TP15 and TP16 for CONUS. Or maybe some other reason.


----------



## evan_s

Tom Robertson said:


> My impression is that D10 could reuse some of their spotbeam transponder frequencies and/or share with D12. That was what I meant by not maximizing bandwidth--D10 uses as many frequencies as possible to ensure they used the whole ka band to protect their license at that slot. Now that other birds are launching, they can start to maximize the number of spotbeams per frequency.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


10 tps for spots does seem like quite a lot. I'd bet they could get away with half that if they really needed to but they don't.

Assuming they do turn off all the spots on d10 that would definitely free up some power budget for turning tps 15 and 16 back on for conus.


----------



## spear61

Sixto said:


> Yep, will be interesting to see how D10 and D12 share Ka-Lo 18600-18800.
> 
> I guess it all depends on how they've designed the D12 spots to complement, rather then replace, the D10 spots. Many of the public statements have talked about replacement, which always seemed weird unless there really is a need to turn off D10 spots.
> 
> Also have sometimes considered that they may want to turn back on D10 TP 15 & 16, and then spread the rest of the spectrum (18648-18800) between D10/D12.


I remember a cryptic comment in a Directv FCC filing refererencing a D10 event taking place relatively soon after it being placed in service. They said the result was not being able to fully utilize D10 capabilities. Also, I think the D12 filing refer to D12 replacing D10 and D10 moving into backup support for D12


----------



## Sixto

spear61 said:


> I remember a cryptic comment in a Directv FCC filing refererencing a D10 event taking place relatively soon after it being placed in service. They said the result was not being able to fully utilize D10 capabilities. Also, I think the D12 filing refer to D12 replacing D10 and D10 moving into backup support for D12


Yep, they've somewhat openly discussed that the D10 spots have a issue and could not be fully utilized, but it's been curious as to why they would totally shut them down. Unless there's a real serious issue, or they have some other use such as needing part of the spectrum or the power.


----------



## spear61

The unlicensed R2BA may be in trouble but long term, 103W is locked tightly to Directv since the regs say FCC will not issue a US license to a satellite that will interfere with a previously licensed satellite. Directv 103BSS has been licensed.

See 25.158;b3ii

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...8&view=text&node=47:2.0.1.1.5.2.40.41&idno=47

3) The application will be granted only if it meets each of the following criteria:

(i) After review of the application and any pleadings filed in response to that application, the Commission finds that the application meets the standards of §25.156(a); and

(ii) The proposed satellite will not cause harmful interference to any previously licensed operations


----------



## DodgerKing

Thanks for all of the responses. I am glad I do not have to add another LNB that operates at a different frequency.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DodgerKing said:


> Thanks for all of the responses. I am glad I do not have to add another LNB that operates at a different frequency.


You're welcome. 

Just like the addition of Ka, at this point things are very interesting for the addition to BSS. What will that look like to customers? And who will the customers be? 

To add more to the story, the next Ka satellite could be launched into 99° to also use the whole frequency bandwidth more efficiently--and still no LNB changes. DIRECTV has planned this very carefully to do some very cool stuff for us.  (And I have no whispers from DIRECTV on when that satellite will be other than DIRECTV must launch a few BSS satellites in the next 5 years.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Bluegrassman

P Smith said:


> Are prefer poland vodka ?  Russians use a corn to produce alcohol.


Actually, the better vodkas are made from grain (wheat). And believe me, they are far superior to the cheaper potato vodkas. Check out Russian Standard. ;-)

Back to D12, this has been a very exciting time indeed. Having only been a DTV subscriber for less than a year, my wife thinks I'm a total geek for getting so hyped of the launch and following it's progress. :lol:

Thanks everyone for all the great information and updates on this forum!


----------



## Jeremy W

Bluegrassman said:


> Having only been a DTV subscriber for less than a year, my wife thinks I'm a total geek for getting so hyped of the launch and following it's progress. :lol:


She'll get used to it. I still remember following the launch of DirecTV 4S, which was the first satellite they launched after I became a subscriber. That was 9 years ago IIRC.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bluegrassman said:


> Actually, the better vodkas are made from grain (wheat). And believe me, they are far superior to the cheaper potato vodkas. Check out Russian Standard. ;-)
> 
> Back to D12, this has been a very exciting time indeed. Having only been a DTV subscriber for less than a year, my wife thinks I'm a total geek for getting so hyped of the launch and following it's progress. :lol:
> 
> Thanks everyone for all the great information and updates on this forum!


Seems like one day you're following a launch and a few years later you realize you have 15,000 posts here, many great friends, and a wife still shaking her head--but with a smile.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

The Spectrum Five debate continues :http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=792483​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> The Spectrum Five debate continues :http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=792483​


Man, I checked on this less than a hour ago and it wasn't there! :nono:

Anyhooo . . . I think the Commission would be absolutely foolish to deny Directv's request for the STA. And in fact, I think they will grant it, since as Directv points out, Spectrum Five's arguments are very, very weak.

I also think the FCC will grant Directv's operational license eventually, either when the parties work out something to make the dispute go away, or when Spectrum Five and/or Ciel never quite get around to launching payloads that utilize the spectrum and their arguments are dismissed as moot.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> Man, I checked on this less than a hour ago and it wasn't there! :nono:
> 
> Anyhooo . . . I think the Commission would be absolutely foolish to deny Directv's request for the STA. And in fact, I think they will grant it, since as Directv points out, Spectrum Five's arguments are very, very weak.
> 
> I also think the FCC will grant Directv's operational license eventually, either when the parties work out something to make the dispute go away, or when Spectrum Five and/or Ciel never quite get around to launching payloads that utilize the spectrum and their arguments are dismissed as moot.


It's sad that DirecTV is having to fight this. Reading that response it seems almost sarcastic in nature because Spectrum's request is so asinine.

Hopefully, this is granted soon and the bird gets to its testing location ASAP


----------



## Tom Robertson

Very easily read response from DIRECTV to the FCC. Basic points:

1) best to test all the features of the satellite before any go into production serving customers. So let us test it all at 76° while we're testing.
2) power limits are to protect any adjacent broadcasters from interference. There aren't any at 76° (my editorial: which is why we picked it, ya bozo's [spectrum 5]) so very brief operation outside the limits for testing isn't a problem. (Another between the lines editorial, this time to the FCC: and such testing will give us all more data on power flux densities and power requirements for this new band...) 

One very interesting reminder is that the testing will involve pointing each spotbeam at an uplink center and testing them. One after another. With a lot of spotbeams, that could take a few minutes. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## flyingtigerfan

I've been doing a lot of reading in this thread and the attached links, because I just don't have the expertise to add anything. I did, however, find DirecTV's response to the Spectrum Five objection to be entertaining.

There really should never be a case where a legal-type opposition is so weak that the response to it is, "Dude, you said it yourself. There's no reason not to do this."

It was just smack-down in nature, and obviously was a weak desperate play by Spectrum Five. But I guess they felt they had to do it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Very easily read response from DIRECTV to the FCC. Basic points:
> 
> 1) best to test all the features of the satellite before any go into production serving customers. So let us test it all at 76° while we're testing.
> 2) power limits are to protect any adjacent broadcasters from interference. There aren't any at 76° (my editorial: which is why we picked it, ya bozo's [spectrum 5]) so very brief operation outside the limits for testing isn't a problem. (Another between the lines editorial, this time to the FCC: and such testing will give us all more data on power flux densities and power requirements for this new band...)
> 
> One very interesting reminder is that the testing will involve pointing each spotbeam at an uplink center and testing them. One after another. With a lot of spotbeams, that could take a few minutes.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Your explanations (in full) are the ones they should have submitted.


----------



## HoTat2

I also find it interesting that if anyone should be concerned about the potential for interference and file protest with the FCC over DirecTV testing and/or exceeding the legal PFD during IOT of the BSS payload, I would think it would be dish Network. 

Considering the main Ku-band uplink for their eastern arc is only 1° away at 77° W and with them being the primary competitor to DirecTV for DBS service. I feel dish would have a lot more of a motive and make a more convincing argument (if there is a real one to be had) with the FCC against DirecTV's IOT of RB-2A due to the possibility for interference.

Yet dish or Echostar hasn't raised a word of objection so far that I'm aware of ...


----------



## Shades228

HoTat2 said:


> I also find it interesting that if anyone should be concerned about the potential for interference and file protest with the FCC over DirecTV testing and/or exceeding the legal PFD during IOT of the BSS payload, I would think it would be dish Network.
> 
> Considering the main Ku-band uplink for their eastern arc is only 1° away at 77° W and with them being the primary competitor to DirecTV for DBS service. I feel dish would have a lot more of a motive and make a more convincing argument (if there is a real one to be had) with the FCC against DirecTV's IOT of RB-2A due to the possibility for interference.
> 
> Yet dish or Echostar hasn't raised a word of objection so far that I'm aware of ...


DirecTV is doing their test work. They have as much interest in this testing as DirecTV does.


----------



## HoTat2

Shades228 said:


> DirecTV is doing their test work. They have as much interest in this testing as DirecTV does.


Possibly so ...

But I can't believe that if there was any "genuine" (key word here) concerns about the potential for co-frequency interference to other operational systems as Spectrum 5 alleges then dish Network would be jumping up and down right now as well in protest about DirecTV conducting it's BSS payload testing right next door to one of their primary service uplinks.

Especially considering DirecTV is their rival anyhow ...

IOW, dish obviously knows there is no real threat of interference from the proposed IOT of D12's RB-2A package at 76°, and I'm happy to see they're not going to bother making an a$$ of themselves with these unsubstantial claims as Spectrum 5 regrettably is.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> IOW, dish obviously knows there is no real threat of interference from the proposed IOT of D12's RB-2A package at 76°, and I'm happy to see they're not going to bother making an a$$ of themselves with these unsubstantial claims as Spectrum 5 regrettably is.


Indeed. And also of note is the fact that, so far as I know, Spectrum Five doesn't even have a U.S.-licensed payload in operation. What they're doing almost seems like the spectrum equivalent of "cyber-squatting" on a domain name. Unfortunately, while the FCC will eventually rescind any grants if they are not used, I don't know if other countries' licensing agencies do likewise. In other words, if Spectrum Five holds a Dutch license to broadcast to the Netherlands Antilles based on an ITU grant of BSS spectrum to the Netherlands, I don't know if the Dutch agency will ever tell Spectrum Five to crap (build and launch their bird) or get off the pot, as the FCC would.


----------



## cdhinch

All anyone need to do is do a search for lobbyist R. David Wilson. He is the president of Spectrum Five. He was a lobbyist for DirecTV back in 2001, now he is just a thorn in their side.


----------



## smiddy

cdhinch said:


> All anyone need to do is do a search for lobbyist R. David Wilson. He is the president of Spectrum Five. He was a lobbyist for DirecTV back in 2001, now he is just a thorn in their side.


Reading those FCC filings one would certainly get that impression.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this morning . . .

Inclination down under 10º and eccentricity reduced a bit.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning . . .


yep ... soon ...


----------



## Sixto

Good progress ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-05-2010 06:48:52
Orbit # at Epoch	13
Inclination		9.703
RA of A. Node		98.502
Eccentricity		0.4477550
Argument of Perigee	0.895
Revs per day		1.46599184
Period			16h 22m 16s (982.27 min)
Semi-major axis		32 733 km
Perigee x Apogee	11 698 x 41 011 km
Element number / age	15 / 0 day(s)

Lon			173.6770° E
Lat			9.5257° S
Alt (km)		17 690.240

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
015 01-05-2010 06:48:52 [COLOR="Red"]11 698[/COLOR] x [COLOR="Red"]41 011[/COLOR] +71.94H @ 7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
013 01-02-2010 06:52:28  5 093 x 38 354 +26.04H @ 4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°
012 01-01-2010 04:49:48  5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°
011 12-31-2009 21:24:51  5,096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°
009 12-31-2009 17:16:34  5,097 x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,363[/COLOR][/B] + 1.47H @ 2.70D 147.75°E 19.10°N 20.52°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Compare to D10, last D12 change happened with 'overshooting' apogee and higher inclination:



> D10:
> 4.66	4921	37130	21.30
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 5.97	8277	37105	14.61
> 6.25	8290	37082	14.61
> 6.82	8308	37083	14.63
> *7.32	17992	37082	5.86*


Bumpy ride ?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Compare to D10, last D12 change happened with 'overshooting' apogee and higher inclination:
> 
> Bumpy ride ?


I doubt it. More likely adjusting the orbital phasing to arrive at 76º rather than immediately at or near 103º - don't be a worry wart.


----------



## Hdhead

How long of a thruster firing would it take to boost the orbit by this amount? And would it take two burns, one to initiate the change and another to stop the momentum?


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> How long of a thruster firing would it take to boost the orbit by this amount? And would it take two burns, one to initiate the change and another to stop the momentum?


That depends on a number of factors, most of which can only be guess-timated poorly - the thrust of the propulsion system being used (whether liquid or XIPS), the current mass of the satellite (which changes constantly at this point due to fuel usage) and the fuel consumption rate of the propulsion system being used. Now, that said, orbital mechanics isn't so much about how long the propulsion system is fired for, or about raising altitude per se, but it's more about changing the speed of the vehicle relative to the center of the earth, and thus the altitude and shape of the orbit.

Typically, for simple orbital maneuvers, you change the height of apogee (the highest point of the orbit) by a velocity change at perigee (the lowest point) and vice versa. You don't do one burn to start an orbital change and another to stop it, you just change it the one time. However, for large, long-duration communications satellites, it seems the more typical approach is the one Directv is using - many small maneuvers over a period of weeks in the interest of fuel efficiency and to give time for full spacecraft systems testing.


----------



## HoTat2

Best guess LL.;

While raising perigee this way is certainly understandable, and maybe even somewhat behind D10's perigee at the same time in orbital history, what is your thinking behind raising the apogee to over 41,000 Km?


----------



## P Smith

Sometimes longer over-burn could happen .


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Best guess LL.;
> 
> While raising perigee this way is certainly understandable, and maybe even somewhat behind D10's perigee at the same time in orbital history, what is your thinking behind raising the apogee to over 41,000 Km?


Changing the orbit phasing.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Sometimes longer over-burn could happen .


Not likely unless there's a major command/control or satellite propulsion failure.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Changing the orbit phasing.


By that I assume you mean an adjustment to the satellite's orbital time/position as defined in this brief entry from the Wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_phasing

However, since this entry only gives orbital docking with two spacecraft as a need for this maneuver, what relevance does orbit phasing really have for D12 right now in your estimation?


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Not likely unless there's a major command/control or satellite propulsion failure.


latest one most likely ...


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> By that I assume you mean an adjustment to the satellite's orbital time/position as defined in this brief entry from the Wikipedia?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_phasing
> 
> However, since this entry only gives orbital docking with two spacecraft as a need for this maneuver, what relevance does orbit phasing really have for D12 right now in your estimation?


Consider: docking two spacecraft simply means that they arrive within the same (small) volume of space with sufficiently-low residual relative motion that they can touch without causing damage.

Now: what, really, is "parking" a geosynchronous spacecraft in a particular orbital slot?


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Consider: docking two spacecraft simply means that they arrive within the same (small) volume of space with sufficiently-low residual relative motion that they can touch without causing damage.
> 
> Now: what, really, is "parking" a geosynchronous spacecraft in a particular orbital slot?


OK;

Or to state the matter otherwise after giving it some more thought, changing the satellite's orbit phasing during this elliptical state changes the longitude it's apogee occurs as seen from the earth?

And this process is in turn used to center the apogee at 76° W before mainly raising perigee toward circularization?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> OK;
> 
> Or to state the matter otherwise after giving it some more thought, changing the satellite's orbit phasing during this elliptical state changes the longitude it's apogee occurs as seen from the earth?
> 
> And this process is in turn used to center the apogee at 76° W before mainly raising perigee toward circularization?


Yep, pretty much.  Subject, of course, to being able to "slide" into the slot without getting too close to any other GSO satellites around, limits on the precision and accuracy of command and control, and keeping the vehicle in contact with ground stations.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> That depends on a number of factors, most of which can only be guess-timated poorly - the thrust of the propulsion system being used (whether liquid or XIPS)


I have always been under the impression that XIPS is extremely low thrust, and that they'd have to be using some sort of liquid fuel for maneuvers like this. Can they actually use XIPS?


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> I have always been under the impression that XIPS is extremely low thrust, and that they'd have to be using some sort of liquid fuel for maneuvers like this. Can they actually use XIPS?


I haven't run the numbers so I don't know. In theory there's no reason why not - ion propulsion is amazingly efficient, despite the low thrust. Long, continuous thrusting can do a LOT. But I really don't know. FCC filings seem to imply that the end-of-life disposal orbit raising maneuver is done using XIPS but it doesn't outright say so.


----------



## doctor j

Polar and Equatorial perspective of latest TLE compared to D-10 and TLE#7

Doctor j


----------



## jefbal99

doctor j said:


> Polar and Equatorial perspective of latest TLE compared to D-10 and TLE#7
> 
> Doctor j


Great images there, really helps to see the changes


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Polar and Equatorial perspective of latest TLE compared to D-10 and TLE#7
> 
> Doctor j


Nice images there, Doc. What are you using for visualization software?


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> Nice images there, Doc. What are you using for visualization software?


Thanks.

JSatTrak

http://www.gano.name/shawn/JSatTrak/

Doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> Great images there, really helps to see the changes


Agree...it talks the math and rocket science a bit out of it for the rest of us "regular guys". :lol:


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Thanks.
> 
> JSatTrak
> 
> http://www.gano.name/shawn/JSatTrak/
> 
> Doctor j


very nice! thx.


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-05-2010 15:23:22
Orbit # at Epoch	14
Inclination		9.701
RA of A. Node		98.446
Eccentricity		0.4477756
Argument of Perigee	0.960
Revs per day		1.46596916
Period			16h 22m 17s (982.28 min)
Semi-major axis		32 733 km
Perigee x Apogee	11 698 x 41 012 km
Element number / age	16 / 0 day(s)

Lon			66.9113° W
Lat			1.5966° N
Alt (km)		40 403.070

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
016 01-05-2010 15:23:22 11 698 x 41 012 + 8.57H @ 7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
015 01-05-2010 06:48:52 [B][COLOR="Red"]11,698[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]41,011[/COLOR][/B] +71.94H @ 7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
013 01-02-2010 06:52:28  5 093 x 38 354 +26.04H @ 4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°
012 01-01-2010 04:49:48  5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°
011 12-31-2009 21:24:51  5,096 x 38,353 + 4.14H @ 2.88D 150.22°E  2.76°N 20.52°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Now we need a patience - wait when Boeing will recalculate next burn, if last one done out of 'no-mee-nal'.


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> Compare to D10, last D12 change happened with 'overshooting' apogee and higher inclination:


anyone got D11, I seem to remember it went out past 40k miles, thought obviously had 0 inclination thanks to Sea Launch


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Now we need a patience - wait when Boeing will recalculate next burn, *if last one done out of 'no-mee-nal'.*


It wasn't.


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> anyone got D11, I seem to remember it went out past 40k miles, thought obviously had 0 inclination thanks to Sea Launch


yep ...


Sixto said:



> *Comparison of D10, Spaceway-1, and D11 Satellites during their move to geostationary:*
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]D11[/B]	[B]D11	D11
> [U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U][/B]
> 1	414	35813	18114	262	34097	17180	243	36067	18155
> 2	4919	35792	20356
> 3	4921	36526	20724	1061	34311	17686
> 4	4923	37127	21025	1058	34315	17687	463	36484	18474
> 6	8277	37105	22691	1067	37418	19243	463	38996	19730
> 7	17992	37082	27537				468	40742	20605
> 8	17994	37083	27539	1066	45481	23274	7392	40992	24192
> 10	31290	37120	34205	4538	45472	25005	7387	40988	24188
> 11	34206	37119	35663	10508	45520	28014
> 12	34100	37245	35673	21197	45466	33332	17363	41066	29215
> 13	34099	37129	35614	21197	45466	33332	17362	41064	29213
> 14	34088	37109	35599	25415	45483	35449
> 15	34085	37109	35597	25415	45470	35443
> 16	34088	37104	35596	26063	45474	35769	29456	41232	35344
> 17	34123	37099	35611	26097	45474	35786	29621	41228	35425
> 18	34179	37102	35641	26097	45475	35786	29621	41228	35425
> 19	34239	37050	35645	26098	45476	35787	29622	41228	35425
> 21	34449	37082	35766	26099	45480	35790	29723	41211	35467
> 24	34759	36906	35833	26218	45281	35750	30007	41174	35591
> 26	35111	36572	35842	26371	45197	35784	30345	41133	35739
> 29	34923	36787	35855	26903	44722	35813	30615	41065	35840
> 31	35603	36177	35890	27317	44295	35806	30883	40871	35877
> 32	35644	36057	35851				31115	40623	35869
> 33	35630	36051	35841				31309	40411	35860
> 34	35663	35964	35814	27342	44275	35809	31369	40366	35868
> 35	35740	35919	35830	27738	43839	35789	31660	39991	35826
> 36	35737	35864	35801				31742	39996	35869
> 37	35739	35876	35808	28120	43443	35782	31867	39844	35856
> 38	35742	35809	35776	27991	43578	35785
> 40	35784	35789	35787	28454	43005	35730	32302	39428	35865
> 41	35784	35787	35786				32285	39398	35842
> 42				28593	42985	35789	32598	39086	35842
> 45				29272	42297	35785	32976	38782	35879
> 47							33276	38434	35855
> 48				29769	41851	35810	33458	38289	35874
> 49				29918	41704	35811	33596	38136	35866
> 51				30054	41420	35737	33988	37798	35893
> 52				30271	41282	35777
> 53							34111	37722	35917
> 54							34365	37443	35904
> 56				30647	40926	35787	34423	37211	35817
> 57				30784	40711	35748	34610	37078	35844
> 58				30934	40566	35750	34793	36906	35850
> 60				30961	40636	35799
> 61							35206	36441	35824
> 62							35350	36345	35848
> 63							35496	36217	35857
> 64				31829	39718	35774	35600	36052	35826
> 65				31988	39539	35764	35739	35884	35812
> 66				32106	39528	35817	35747	35804	35776
> 67				32237	39403	35820	35786	35792	35789
> 69				32573	38958	35766	35785	35789	35787
> 70				32679	38954	35817	35786	35788	35787
> 72				33058	38503	35781
> 73				33136	38497	35817
> 74				33338	38206	35772
> 76				33642	37920	35781
> 77				33752	37796	35774
> 78				33226	38341	35784
> 80				33661	37942	35802
> 81				34201	37322	35762
> 83				34201	37307	35754
> 84				34713	36881	35797
> 85				34782	36735	35759
> 86				34999	36585	35792
> 87				34634	36970	35802
> 88				34847	36770	35809
> 92				34847	36770	35809
> 93				35763	35844	35804
> 97				35784	35790	35787
> 98				35783	35792	35788
> 99				35784	35790	35787
> 101				35784	35790	35787
> 102				35784	35790	35787
> 103				35784	35790	35787
> 105				35785	35789	35787


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> anyone got D11, I seem to remember it went out past 40k miles, thought obviously had 0 inclination thanks to Sea Launch





Sixto said:


> yep ...


Thanks for your support.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> It wasn't.


Who knows ...


----------



## smiddy

Fun fun fun! Anyone have a guest as to when this pup will get into its testing spot? I'm going to say January 24, 2010.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Fun fun fun! Anyone have a guest as to when this pup will get into its testing spot? I'm going to say January 24, 2010.


From the FCC Filing: "After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010]."


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> From the FCC Filing: "After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010]."


Well, I guess my guess sucks then.


----------



## Ernie

HoTat2 said:


> Best guess LL.;
> 
> While raising perigee this way is certainly understandable, and maybe even somewhat behind D10's perigee at the same time in orbital history, what is your thinking behind raising the apogee to over 41,000 Km?


Super Synchronous Transfer Orbits are used to reduce the energy requirements of the inclination change.

Ernie


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-06-2010 04:54:40
Orbit # at Epoch	14
Inclination		9.705
RA of A. Node		98.434
Eccentricity		0.4477659
Argument of Perigee	1.002
Revs per day		1.46597794
Period			16h 22m 16s (982.27 min)
Semi-major axis		32 733 km
Perigee x Apogee	11 698 x 41 011 km
Element number / age	18 / 0 day(s)

Lon			58.3449° E
Lat			6.3841° N
Alt (km)		32 778.200

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
018 01-06-2010 04:54:40 11,698 x 41,011 +13.52H @ 8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
016 01-05-2010 15:23:22 11,698 x 41,012 + 8.57H @ 7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°
015 01-05-2010 06:48:52 [B][COLOR="Red"]11,698[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]41,011[/COLOR][/B] +71.94H @ 7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
013 01-02-2010 06:52:28  5,093 x 38,354 +26.04H @ 4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°
012 01-01-2010 04:49:48  5,097 x 38,352 + 7.42H @ 3.19D  74.48°W  0.01°S 20.52°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Who knows ...


*I* know. See my posts earlier in the thread about orbital mechanics and Ernie's post about supersynchronous transfer orbits and inclination changes. As Darth Vader would say, "I find your lack of faith . . . disturbing." :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> From the FCC Filing: "After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DirecTV-12 will be located at 76° [no earlier than about 2/15/2010]."


Would that be when the extend the solar arrays fully then?


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Would that be when the extend the solar arrays fully then?


Probably so.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Probably so.


Thanks Lefty - I assmued it needed to at least be "parked" in a local before it happened. That all seems to be the next "big step" along the way to having a live bird with all its functions working.


----------



## bakers12

smiddy said:


> Well, I guess my guess sucks then.


Don't take it so hard just because you made a donkey out of yourself.


----------



## HoTat2

Ernie said:


> Super Synchronous Transfer Orbits are used to reduce the energy requirements of the inclination change.
> 
> Ernie


Now this sounds like a very good possible explanation;

The only problem is as Sixto posted yesterday here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2322572#post2322572

D10 which was also launched from Baikonur into the same type of inclined GTO did not use such a Super Synchronous Transfer Orbit with an apogee exceeding 41,000 Km at any time, yet D11 which used an equatorial launch for an ~0° inclination did as with D12. 

Oh well whatever the case ... time for the mourning coffee ... :coffee


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Now this sounds like a very good possible explanation;
> 
> The only problem is as Sixto posted yesterday here;
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2322572#post2322572
> 
> D10 which was also launched from Baikonur into the same type of inclined GTO did not use such a Super Synchronous Transfer Orbit with a perigee exceeding 41,000 Km at any time, yet D11 which used an equatorial launch for an ~0° inclination did as with D12.
> 
> Oh well whatever the case ... time for the mourning coffee ... :coffee


It seems to me that both D11 and D12 are using more optimized trajectories (lower fuel usage) than did D10; however, D10 had more riding on speed and fast arrival at its testing slot than did either D11 or D12.


----------



## smiddy

bakers12 said:


> Don't take it so hard just because you made a donkey out of yourself.


I deserve that, I _guess_. :lol:

The way things have been going for DirecTV though I think they will be as close to the date Sixto showed as possible. I am so looking forward to it!


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> *I* know. See my posts earlier in the thread about orbital mechanics and Ernie's post about supersynchronous transfer orbits and inclination changes. As Darth Vader would say, "I find your lack of faith . . . disturbing." :lol:


That good to know you got it after Ernie as we are all as well. 
Wouldn't be useful clarify it as:
_High-GTO: super-synchronous transfer orbits with apogees between
41000 km and 50000 km._
because of other similar type:
_Super-GTO. The truly spectactular super-synchronous transfer orbits
used by some recent commercial satellites reach apogees previously only explored by deep space research probes._
http://www.planet4589.org/space/jsr/back/news.310


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> That good to know you got it after Ernie as we are all as well.
> Wouldn't be useful clarify it as:
> _High-GTO: super-synchronous transfer orbits with apogees between
> 41000 km and 50000 km._
> because of other similar type:
> _Super-GTO. The truly spectactular super-synchronous transfer orbits
> used by some recent commercial satellites reach apogees previously only explored by deep space research probes._
> http://www.planet4589.org/space/jsr/back/news.310


I call Geekfight....:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> That good to know you got it after Ernie as we are all as well.


Actually, I posted quite some time ago that inclination changes are made at apogee for delta-V/fuel efficiency reasons. The higher the apogee the more efficient the maneuver. So bite me.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I call Geekfight....:lol:





LameLefty said:


> Actually, I posted quite some time ago that inclination changes are made at apogee for delta-V/fuel efficiency reasons. The higher the apogee the more efficient the maneuver. So bite me.


You guys make me laugh! !rolling

Either way it gets there, I just want it there, to test, then, to get me some more of those beautiful High Definition channels. And that is what is important, not how and why it gets to where it needs to go, but completing those tests and getting me more HDTV! 

Ok, it is important too, I was just kidding. You guys are still funny though. :lol:


----------



## tuff bob

If you're looking for really big GTO's, remember they were talking about sending AMC-14 (that had a launch failure) around the moon 

http://www.space-travel.com/reports...n_AMC_14_Lunar_Flyby_Salvage_Attempt_999.html


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> You guys make me laugh! !rolling


No reason we can't have a little fun along the way...while D12 goes round and round in circles for another couple months...until its in the right eliptical circle.


----------



## smiddy

tuff bob said:


> If you're looking for really big GTO's, remember they were talking about sending AMC-14 (that had a launch failure) around the moon
> 
> http://www.space-travel.com/reports...n_AMC_14_Lunar_Flyby_Salvage_Attempt_999.html


Whoa, that would be so kewl! Bummer they didn't try it.


----------



## P Smith

Ernie said:


> Super Synchronous Transfer Orbits are used to reduce the energy requirements of the inclination change.
> 
> Ernie


Ernie, have I seen you here ?


----------



## cartrivision

tuff bob said:


> If you're looking for really big GTO's, remember they were talking about sending AMC-14 (that had a launch failure) around the moon
> 
> http://www.space-travel.com/reports...n_AMC_14_Lunar_Flyby_Salvage_Attempt_999.html
> 
> 
> 
> smiddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa, that would be so kewl! Bummer they didn't try it.
Click to expand...

Hughes _did_ do it with HGS-1 (AKA ASIASAT-1). See the links below for details....

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/hsc_pressreleases/photogallery/flyby/flyby2_hirez.jpeg
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/hsc_pressreleases/98_04_29_lunar.html
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/hsc_pressreleases/98_05_18_hgs_darkside2.html


----------



## Ernie

P Smith said:


> Ernie, have I seen you here ?


No, my knowledge of these things comes from working on a bird that never got launched(Teal Ruby).

Ernie


----------



## joshjr

Hard to believe that it launched that long ago. Time is flying really.


----------



## P Smith




----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> No, my knowledge of these things comes from working on a bird that never got launched(Teal Ruby).
> 
> Ernie


Fun. I learned my stuff working on something else.


----------



## bobnielsen

Here is one (ATS-1) that I worked on (that isn't me in the picture, but those antennas hanging off the edge were my design).


----------



## smiddy

Very kewl stuff folks, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Button Pusher

Very kewl indeed!


----------



## LameLefty

New TLEs . . . good changes on the orbit. 


Code:


Name			Directv-12 018
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-06 09:38:43
Orbit # at Epoch	15
Inclination		3.452
RA of A. Node		98.680
Eccentricity		0.2762155
Argument of Perigee	1.935
Revs per day		1.21073543
Period			19h 49m 21s (1189.35 min)
Semi-major axis		37 185 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 536 x 41 078 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		186.976
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number/age	19 / 1 day(s)


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> New TLEs . . . good changes on the orbit.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name	Directv-12 018
> NORAD #	36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2010-01-06 09:38:43
> Orbit # at Epoch	15
> Inclination	3.452
> RA of A. Node	98.680
> Eccentricity	0.2762155
> Argument of Perigee	1.935
> Revs per day	1.21073543
> Period	19h 49m 21s (1189.35 min)
> Semi-major axis	37 185 km
> Perigee x Apogee	20 536 x 41 078 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	186.976
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	19 / 1 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A


LL, what TLE number is this? looks liek they doubled the Perigee from Sixto's last post

Edit in:

Forgot i had a Space-track.org account, its TLE 19



Code:


DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A   10006.40188660 -.00000134  00000-0  10000-3 0   191
2 36131 003.4520 098.6800 2762155 001.9350 186.9760 01.21073543   156


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> LL, what TLE number is this? looks liek they doubled the Perigee from Sixto's last post


I thought it was elset #18 (as indicated in my table), but according to Space-Trak, it's set #19. And it's actually dated yesterday morning. So expect more updates today.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> I thought it was elset #18 (as indicated in my table), but according to Space-Trak, it's set #19. And it's actually dated yesterday morning. So expect more updates today.


That was my confusion, cause Sixto's last was 18 

Just waiting for those pretty pictures that get posted (too lazy to install orbitron on this pc)


----------



## Sixto

Yep, #19 and it's old still:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-06-2010 09:38:43
Orbit # at Epoch	15
Inclination		3.452
RA of A. Node		98.680
Eccentricity		0.2762155
Argument of Perigee	1.935
Revs per day		1.21073543
Period			19h 49m 21s (1189.35 min)
Semi-major axis		37 185 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 536 x 41 078 km
Element number / age	19 / 1 day(s)

Lon			34.1959° E
Lat			0.3792° S
Alt (km)		41 062.940

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
019 01-06-2010 09:38:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 + 4.73H @ 8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][/B]
018 01-06-2010 04:54:40 11,698 x 41,011 +13.52H @ 8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°
016 01-05-2010 15:23:22 11,698 x 41,012 + 8.57H @ 7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°
015 01-05-2010 06:48:52 [B][COLOR="Red"]11,698[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]41,011[/COLOR][/B] +71.94H @ 7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/B]
013 01-02-2010 06:52:28  5,093 x 38,354 +26.04H @ 4.27D 106.35°W  0.01°S 20.52°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## LameLefty

Gee, and notice that since the satellite went supersynchronous the other day, the orbital inclination has come way down. And some people were worried about "overshooting" the orbit. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Gee, and notice that since the satellite went supersynchronous the other day, the orbital inclination has come way down. And some people were worried about "overshooting" the orbit. :lol:


yep, and the latest update is over a day old!


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> That was my confusion, cause Sixto's last was 18
> 
> Just waiting for those pretty pictures that get posted (too lazy to install orbitron on this pc)


A quick look ... post#1 updated ...

<Removed my graphic and used great graphic from Doctor J in post#1>


----------



## ptuck874

Sixto said:


> A quick look ... post#1 updated ...


dang son, it be getting close to same orbit! man space travel be fast


----------



## P Smith

I did follow that initial idea of similarity to D10's marsh and went with my own logical conclusion; we all making our own - no one is from Boeing control room posting here .


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> ...no one is from Boeing control room posting here .


we need to work on that.


----------



## doctor j

A summary of all D-12's orbital positions.

D-10 White
D-12_1 Red
D-12_2 Orange
D-12_10 Blue
D-12_14 Yellow
D-12_19 Green


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> A summary of all D-12's orbital positions.
> 
> D-10 White
> D-12_1 Red
> D-12_2 Orange
> D-12_10 Blue
> D-12_14 Yellow
> D-12_19 Green


Updating to use your GREAT graphic instead of mine. 

Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Updating to use your GREAT graphic instead of mine.
> 
> Thanks.


Done. post#1 now uses doctor j view. with appropriate credit! 

Thanks.


----------



## doctor j

If you're going to do that I'll have to work harder!

I'll try to get the labels in phase and do some clean up.

Thanks

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> If you're going to do that I'll have to work harder!
> 
> I'll try to get the labels in phase and do some clean up.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Doctor j


teamwork baby!


----------



## HoTat2

No point posting anymore ground tracks for D12 at this point I guess with an orbital inclination down to 3.45° at last TLE report. Pretty much a straight line across the equator. 

Oscillating east to west with an overall eastward drift I take it right now, but still pretty much a straight equatorial line.


----------



## LameLefty

Another new TLE . . .



Code:


Name			Directv-12 020
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-07 17:02:24
Orbit # at Epoch	16
Inclination		3.552
RA of A. Node		98.046
Eccentricity		0.2789437
Argument of Perigee	1.053
Revs per day		1.21741352
Period			19h 42m 50s (1182.83 min)
Semi-major axis		37 049 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 005 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		48.169
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	20 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-07-2010 17:02:24
Orbit # at Epoch	16
Inclination		3.552
RA of A. Node		98.046
Eccentricity		0.2789437
Argument of Perigee	1.053
Revs per day		1.21741352
Period			19h 42m 50s (1182.83 min)
Semi-major axis		37 049 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 005 km
Element number / age	20 / 0 day(s)

Lon			174.1326° E
Lat			3.5014° N
Alt (km)		25 859.880

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
020 01-07-2010 17:02:24 20 336 x 41 005 +31.39H @ 9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°[/COLOR][/B]
019 01-06-2010 09:38:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 + 4.73H @ 8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B]
018 01-06-2010 04:54:40 11,698 x 41,011 +13.52H @ 8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°
016 01-05-2010 15:23:22 11,698 x 41,012 + 8.57H @ 7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°
015 01-05-2010 06:48:52 [B][COLOR="Red"]11,698[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]41,011[/COLOR][/B] +71.94H @ 7.27D 173.68°E  9.53°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]9.70°[/COLOR][/B]

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

latest update (#20) was from an hour ago so we're fairly current now for a while ... #19 was a day behind earlier ...


----------



## steveken

LameLefty said:


> I haven't run the numbers so I don't know. In theory there's no reason why not - ion propulsion is amazingly efficient, despite the low thrust. Long, continuous thrusting can do a LOT. But I really don't know. FCC filings seem to imply that the end-of-life disposal orbit raising maneuver is done using XIPS but it doesn't outright say so.


So, when a satellite is to die, they RAISE the orbit? They don't lower it to reenter and burn up?


----------



## CTJon

I know this has been said before but I think it need repeating... It is great hearing from the real experts who have actually done these things rather than hearing from the self proclaimed experts who have no real experience or expertise. Thanks.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> So, when a satellite is to die, they RAISE the orbit? They don't lower it to reenter and burn up?


It would take too much fuel for a satellite in geosynchronous orbit to lower its orbit enough to reenter and burn up. Rather, GSO satellites are required by FCC regulation and international agreement to reserve enough fuel to be able to raise their orbit significantly out of the "Clarke Belt" and out of the way of operational satellites, and then vent any remaining propellants, pressure vessels and energy storage systems so they don't pose a risk of breaking up and cluttering space with more debris.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> It would take too much fuel for a satellite in geosynchronous orbit to lower its orbit enough to reenter and burn up. Rather, GSO satellites are required by FCC regulation and international agreement to reserve enough fuel to be able to raise their orbit significantly out of the "Clarke Belt" and out of the way of operational satellites, and then vent any remaining propellants, pressure vessels and energy storage systems so they don't pose a risk of breaking up and cluttering space with more debris.


*THAT *is something I never knew, and find interesting. 

Over numerous decades....it sounds like we are creating our own asteroid belt made up of space junk.


----------



## tuff bob

HoTat2 said:


> No point posting anymore ground tracks for D12 at this point I guess with an orbital inclination down to 3.45° at last TLE report. Pretty much a straight line across the equator.


It's still useful for watching the satellite migrate towards the 72 degree testing slot..


----------



## steveken

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *THAT *is something I never knew, and find interesting.
> 
> Over numerous decades....it sounds like we are creating our own asteroid belt made up of space junk.


Indeed, so "Wall-E" wasn't far off when they showed the ship leaving Earth and going through that mess of debris.


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> to raise their orbit significantly out of the "Clarke Belt" and out of the way of operational satellites


How much is significantly? I know in space terms a "tad" is about half a billion miles.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom_S said:


> How much is significantly? I know in space terms a "tad" is about half a billion miles.


There's actually a formula for how high, based on the mass of the spacecraft, it's size and reflectivity and so forth (which affects solar radiation pressure), and a couple other factors. For D12, Directv calculates that at end-of-life it must be raised 289 km above GSO altitude. Just in case, they plan to raise it by 300 km, however.


----------



## steveken

Hmm, got JSatTrak downloaded and put the D12 TLE into it, but I can't seem to get it to bring up the 3D globe thing like Doc J does. Anyone got any hints? I wanna look at it and play with it.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Hmm, got JSatTrak downloaded and put the D12 TLE into it, but I can't seem to get it to bring up the 3D globe thing like Doc J does. Anyone got any hints? I wanna look at it and play with it.


I tried JSatTrak but it requires another module called "JOGL" (which is for OpenGL graphics with Java). The author of JSatTrack includes the Windows build but on OS X or Linux you have to go through a bunch of hoops to get JOGL installed so I haven't bothered.


----------



## steveken

Yeah, I think the JOGL is what is killing me right now.


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:
 

> *THAT *is something I never knew, and find interesting.
> 
> Over numerous decades....it sounds like we are creating our own asteroid belt made up of space junk.


And in a somewhat related note remember that the NORAD cat. # of "36131" for D12 actually represents the numerical count all the way from Sputnik launched back in 1957 as cat # 00001 up to D12's official logging as the 36,131th artificial object tracked in space.

Over 36,000 manmade orbiting objects not counting the innumerable amount of smaller debris too tiny to be detected surrounding the earth.

Not to get on any ecology kick here, and try and despoil all the good cheer over D12's current progress and future promises for more HD capacity and the inaugural use of the new reverse band (BSS).

But man that's obviously a real mess we've created up there and still ceaselessly adding to it ... :nono2:


----------



## P Smith

There is a talk about retrofit existing manned vehicle with nuclear reactor and send it to collect those parts/dead sats.


----------



## RobertE

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *THAT *is something I never knew, and find interesting.
> 
> Over numerous decades....it sounds like we are creating our own asteroid belt made up of space junk.


Planetes is a very good Anime that is based around a crew that has to deal with all the space debris. It starts off slow, but is a very good series. I recommend watching it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> Planetes is a very good Anime that is based around a crew that has to deal with all the space debris. It starts off slow, but is a very good series. I recommend watching it.


Also interesting....thanks for sharing.


----------



## doctor j

steveken said:


> Hmm, got JSatTrak downloaded and put the D12 TLE into it, but I can't seem to get it to bring up the 3D globe thing like Doc J does. Anyone got any hints? I wanna look at it and play with it.


I don't have anything special that i'm aware.

In drop down on opening screen Window gives two 3D options ,both work. I'm not certain about the differences.
Sometimes it does take 30 to 60 secs to load.
No instructions just play with buttons to see how it works.

One note is that JSatTrak_v4_1_bin folder has /data/tle_user folder in which you place .txt file of TLE's and it shows as Custom on the satellite menu.

Good luck

Doctor j


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> There's actually a formula for how high, based on the mass of the spacecraft, it's size and reflectivity and so forth (which affects solar radiation pressure), and a couple other factors. For D12, Directv calculates that at end-of-life it must be raised 289 km above GSO altitude. Just in case, they plan to raise it by 300 km, however.


Wow! Only 300km. And the orbit won't decay right back into the GSO sats?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Tom_S said:


> Wow! Only 300km. And the orbit won't decay right back into the GSO sats?


I hear you. I was very surprised when I read that. I would have thought safely disposing of the satellites would have been much higher.

I'm guessing that at that altitude, the orbit does not decay back to earth or essentially will take a very long time to decay to earth. I bet there are members here who can tell us. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gphvid

RobertE said:


> Planetes is a very good Anime that is based around a crew that has to deal with all the space debris. It starts off slow, but is a very good series. I recommend watching it.


I concur as I worked on the English credits for each episode and formatted the masters for the US DVDs. Good show.


----------



## Sixto

RB-2A (1/7/2010):SAT-STA-20091202-00136 S2796 DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC

DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the RB-2A satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing for up to 30 days.

On January 7, 2010, the Satellite Division designated the above-captioned proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" for purposes of the Commission's rules governing ex parte communications, effective January 7, 2010. We find that designating this proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" will facilitate communications with the parties. See 47 C.F.R. §§ 1.1200(a), 1.1206 and 1.1208 note 2.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=791801​


----------



## Sixto

Noticed in the release above, some info on Echostar 14.

Geez, Spectrum Five involved in that one also:http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...ts?f_key=-166815&f_number=SATAMD2009060400064​


----------



## LameLefty

Tom_S said:


> Wow! Only 300km. And the orbit won't decay right back into the GSO sats?





Tom Robertson said:


> I hear you. I was very surprised when I read that. I would have thought safely disposing of the satellites would have been much higher.
> 
> I'm guessing that at that altitude, the orbit does not decay back to earth or essentially will take a very long time to decay to earth. I bet there are members here who can tell us.


Yep, Tom's right. It'll be thousands of years before it becomes an issue.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> RB-2A (1/7/2010):SAT-STA-20091202-00136 S2796 DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
> 
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the RB-2A satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing for up to 30 days.
> 
> On January 7, 2010, the Satellite Division designated the above-captioned proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" for purposes of the Commission's rules governing ex parte communications, effective January 7, 2010. We find that designating this proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" will facilitate communications with the parties. See 47 C.F.R. §§ 1.1200(a), 1.1206 and 1.1208 note 2.​




What that means is that the FCC is allowing the parties to communicate with them individually and informally (ex parte) but will disclose all such communications so the other parties involved will know what's going on.​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Yep, Tom's right. It'll be thousands of years before it becomes an issue.


Yeah....but the great great great grandkids could be really pissed at what we've done! 

One would think that somewhere between now and then, that big vaccuum cleaner in the sky will be invented and clean up after us. 

In the mean time...

It's very interesting to see the graphical depictions of the orbits.


----------



## P Smith

Yeah, if not going to execute Super Synchronous Transfer Orbits with inclination around 0°.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All I can say is, I'm glad you guys are so knowledgeable about this stuff.


----------



## dpeters11

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say is, I'm glad you guys are so knowledgeable about this stuff.


Not very often you can say something about entertainment really is rocket science. Fun stuff, they should do this more often


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say is, I'm glad you guys are so knowledgeable about this stuff.


Me too. I'm still amazed at how it all works. What keeps them from hitting each other?


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> RB-2A (1/7/2010):SAT-STA-20091202-00136 S2796 DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
> 
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to locate the RB-2A satellite at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing for up to 30 days.
> 
> On January 7, 2010, the Satellite Division designated the above-captioned proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" for purposes of the Commission's rules governing ex parte communications, effective January 7, 2010. We find that designating this proceeding as "permit-but-disclose" will facilitate communications with the parties. See 47 C.F.R. §§ 1.1200(a), 1.1206 and 1.1208 note 2.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=791801​


So I take it this "permit but disclose" is not a decision on the STA request for RB-2A one way or the other, but only means the FCC will continue to hear ex parte arguments from any party pro or con and then subsequently disclose them to the others?

Boy ... I hate legalese ... :scratch:


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yeah....but the great great great grandkids could be really pissed at what we've done!
> ..


About the graveyard:
"However, recent findings have shown that satellites left in a graveyard orbit will slowly break apart as micrometeorites hit them, and the smaller fragments will filter back down to lower altitudes. Thus satellites boosted to higher disposal orbits will eventually endanger operational satellites."


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> So I take it this "permit but disclose" is not a decision on the STA request for RB-2A one way or the other, but only means the FCC will continue to hear ex parte arguments from any party pro or con and then subsequently disclose them to the others?


Yep.



> Boy ... I hate legalese ... :scratch:


Man, tell me about it! :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> About the graveyard:


Can you post anything that isn't negative?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> About the graveyard:
> "However, recent findings have shown that satellites left in a graveyard orbit will slowly break apart as micrometeorites hit them, and the smaller fragments will filter back down to lower altitudes. Thus satellites boosted to higher disposal orbits will eventually endanger operational satellites."


I think I've seen that movie already....

It does have a happy ending though.


----------



## P Smith

It's not negative - knowing all aspects give more realistic view of anything.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> It's not negative - knowing all aspects give more realistic view of anything.


Only if your "aspects" are based on a realistic appraisal of the risk. The only significant source of orbital debris in GSO and supersynchronous orbits are the satellites themselves. There's a reason by the pertinent regulations require that spacecraft vent propellants and de-energize power sources when they are retired.


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> So I take it this "permit but disclose" is not a decision on the STA request for RB-2A one way or the other, but only means the FCC will continue to hear ex parte arguments from any party pro or con and then subsequently disclose them to the others?
> 
> Boy ... I hate legalese ... :scratch:


The number of lawyers involved probably exceeds the number of engineers :lol:


----------



## ATARI

bobnielsen said:


> The number of lawyers involved probably exceeds the number of engineers :lol:


Sad, but probably true.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> What that means is that the FCC is allowing the parties to communicate with them individually and informally (ex parte) but will disclose all such communications so the other parties involved will know what's going on.


Thanks Herb, I was wondering why Spectrum Five gave a crap, now I know, they want to know some specifics on what DirecTV is testing I bet.


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> There is a talk about retrofit existing manned vehicle with nuclear reactor and send it to collect those parts/dead sats.


Germany plans to pick up the task in a few years:

http://tinyurl.com/trashbots


----------



## LameLefty

Ed Campbell said:


> Germany plans to pick up the task in a few years:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/trashbots


Um, yeah. Every few years wild hairs get up in dark smelly places and people get stories in the press about such things. They never quite pan out. I wouldn't hold my breath over high-orbit satellite salvage plans coming to fruition within the next hundred years.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Um, yeah. Every few years wild hairs get up in dark smelly places and people get stories in the press about such things. They never quite pan out. I wouldn't hold my breath over high-orbit satellite salvage plans coming to fruition within the next hundred years.


There would be a lot of logistics and coordination behind the scenes and too, the cost of such an endeavor would be emense.


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> Only if your "aspects" are based on a realistic appraisal of the risk. The only significant source of orbital debris in GSO and supersynchronous orbits are the satellites themselves. There's a reason by the pertinent regulations require that spacecraft vent propellants and de-energize power sources when they are retired.


Agreed, but still there is an uneasiness to having several unpowered satellites careening around only a hundred miles or so away. I guess, to my admittedly uneducated mind in these area, I would prefer several thousand at least.


----------



## dpeters11

On DirecTV12, I know we know what to expect, and that the majority of subscribers don't even know about it. But here's a good one. I have a friend that I have been gently trying to get to switch from cable, and he thinks this is evidence that DirecTV is either incompetent or doesn't know what they are doing. He thinks that since back in the 60s it only took three days to go to the moon, that it should be in its slot already.


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> On DirecTV12, I know we know what to expect, and that the majority of subscribers don't even know about it. But here's a good one. I have a friend that I have been gently trying to get to switch from cable, and he thinks this is evidence that DirecTV is either incompetent or doesn't know what they are doing. He thinks that since back in the 60s it only took three days to go to the moon, that it should be in its slot already.


With all due respect to your friend, he's ignorant.  You should point him to this thread and the FCC documents showing that the plan all along has been to take a few weeks at each step.

And all kidding aside, I mean that in the true sense of the word; he just doesn't know and/or understand the realities of spaceflight. It took a Saturn V rocket and a ground team of thousands stationed all over the world to send men to the moon in three days and they were home in two weeks, tops. This satellite is meant to live for 15 years in one of the harshest environments known to man; a few weeks is nothing.


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> With all due respect to your friend, he's ignorant.  You should point him to this thread and the FCC documents showing that the plan all along has been to take a few weeks at each step.
> 
> And all kidding aside, I mean that in the true sense of the word; he just doesn't know and/or understand the realities of spaceflight. It took a Saturn V rocket and a ground team of thousands stationed all over the world to send men to the moon in three days and they were home in two weeks, tops. This satellite is meant to live for 15 years in one of the harshest environments known to man; a few weeks is nothing.


Yeah, big difference I know. Actually to me it's impressive that it can only take 3-4 months for us to see live channels. But always interesting to see the crackpot theories, good for a laugh at least.


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-08-2010 06:34:46
Orbit # at Epoch	17
Inclination		3.556
RA of A. Node		98.018
Eccentricity		0.2789548
Argument of Perigee	1.122
Revs per day		1.21737403
Period			19h 42m 52s (1182.87 min)
Semi-major axis		37 050 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 007 km
Element number / age	21 / 0 day(s)

Lon			155.8932° E
Lat			3.5528° S
Alt (km)		28 951.760

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
021 01-08-2010 06:34:46 20,336 x 41,007 +13.54H @10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°[/COLOR][/B]
020 01-07-2010 17:02:24 20,336 x 41,005 +31.39H @ 9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°
019 01-06-2010 09:38:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 + 4.73H @ 8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B]
018 01-06-2010 04:54:40 11,698 x 41,011 +13.52H @ 8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°
016 01-05-2010 15:23:22 11,698 x 41,012 + 8.57H @ 7.63D  66.91°W  1.60°N  9.70°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## twaller

LameLefty said:


> With all due respect to your friend, he's ignorant.  You should point him to this thread and the FCC documents showing that the plan all along has been to take a few weeks at each step.
> 
> And all kidding aside, I mean that in the true sense of the word; he just doesn't know and/or understand the realities of spaceflight. It took a Saturn V rocket and a ground team of thousands stationed all over the world to send men to the moon in three days and they were home in two weeks, tops. This satellite is meant to live for 15 years in one of the harshest environments known to man; a few weeks is nothing.


Could 3 days be done if you were willing to burn a ton of fuel?


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> update #21 coming ...


And #22 . . .


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> And #22 . . .


within minutes ...


----------



## LameLefty

twaller said:


> Could 3 days be done if you were willing to burn a ton of fuel?


It could be done in about 12 hours if you had a big enough booster. Unfortunately, that's the problem: balancing the size of the payload, mission requirements, and the cost of launching the payload with enough fuel to do the job you need done.


----------



## Sixto

Similar again ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-08-2010 13:51:08
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		3.557
RA of A. Node		98.025
Eccentricity		0.2789532
Argument of Perigee	1.123
Revs per day		1.21736692
Period			19h 42m 52s (1182.87 min)
Semi-major axis		37 050 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 337 x 41 007 km
Element number / age	22 / 0 day(s)

Lon			116.0834° W
Lat			3.4933° N
Alt (km)		29 606.880

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
022 01-08-2010 13:51:08 20,337 x 41,007 + 7.27H @10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°[/COLOR][/B]
021 01-08-2010 06:34:46 20,336 x 41,007 +13.54H @10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°
020 01-07-2010 17:02:24 20,336 x 41,005 +31.39H @ 9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°
019 01-06-2010 09:38:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 + 4.73H @ 8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B]
018 01-06-2010 04:54:40 11,698 x 41,011 +13.52H @ 8.19D  58.34°E  6.38°N  9.70°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## FHSPSU67

LameLefty said:


> With all due respect to your friend, he's ignorant.  You should point him to this thread and the FCC documents showing that the plan all along has been to take a few weeks at each step.
> 
> And all kidding aside, I mean that in the true sense of the word; he just doesn't know and/or understand the realities of spaceflight. It took a Saturn V rocket and a ground team of thousands stationed all over the world to send men to the moon in three days and they were home in two weeks, tops. This satellite is meant to live for 15 years in one of the harshest environments known to man; a few weeks is nothing.


Maybe he should just have his friend read this thread. I'm a degreed and registered electronics engineer, and am just glad to be able to have picked up the gist of LameLefty's posts for all of DirecTV's launches.

Thanks Lamelefty, Sixto, and DrJ for all you've contributed to these threads and all dbstalk topics. This place wouldn't be the same without you,

Finally, YES, I'm an unapolagetic fanboy and proud of it


----------



## Sixto

Lefty, as D12 circles the earth (1.2 revs per day at this point), what specifically are they waiting for each time, before they initiate a move?

We've seen with D10/D11 that some movement happens naturally based on the orbit, but curious when we see no change for sometime, what specifically they're waiting for. Just wondering if they need multiple revs sometimes before they get to a spot for the next move.


----------



## evan_s

dpeters11 said:


> On DirecTV12, I know we know what to expect, and that the majority of subscribers don't even know about it. But here's a good one. I have a friend that I have been gently trying to get to switch from cable, and he thinks this is evidence that DirecTV is either incompetent or doesn't know what they are doing. He thinks that since back in the 60s it only took three days to go to the moon, that it should be in its slot already.


The short answer is it could be there in three days it would just end up costing big in some way. To get there quicker you would either need a much bigger rocket to launch the sat so it was closer to it's orbit when they separated $$$$, a launch site closer the equator $$$$ (sea launch but they used a smaller rocket so it wasn't any better over all), more fuel in the sat for propulsion which would result in less used for actually useful parts of a satellite or shorter in orbit life. Launching things into space has an interested little characteristic, it's efficiency falls of pretty rapidly because you end up using a bunch of fuel just to lift more fuel up higher before burning it up. Kinda like an airplane that is more fuel efficient when there is less fuel on it.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Lefty, as D12 circles the earth (1.2 revs per day at this point), what specifically are they waiting for each time, before they initiate a move?
> 
> We've seen with D10/D11 that some movement happens naturally based on the orbit, but curious when we see no change for sometime, what specifically they're waiting for. Just wondering if they need multiple revs sometimes before they get to a spot for the next move.


The most efficient "spot" in an orbit to make adjustments to inclination is at apogee. However, making adjustments at apogee also changes perigee, while making adjustments at perigee changes the apogee. With such a long orbital period, there are many hours in between the optimum times to make any changes at all. And having made a change, it takes many hours for them to be fully realized. Slow and steady is the mantra here, for the most part.


----------



## Sixto

Change to RB-2A FCC application (BSS payload on DirecTV-12) ...

It now (1/8/2010) states granted but double checking ...

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number​
Edit: It looks like it's granted, but a little skeptical based on other postings. But it does say granted and it's no longer "pending". But wondering if it's still with "conditions" since it still references the old approval.


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Change to RB-2A app ...
> 
> It says granted now but double checking ...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number​
> It looks like it's granted, but a little skeptical based on other postings. But is does say granted.


Wow! ... totally unexpected at this time even before IOT has been officially approved, but before I celebrate, as you note I'll wait for additional confirmation first as this decision seems pretty fast especially considering the issue involved in defining exactly what rights were granted Ciel for BSS service at 103° W from the ITU. 

Even though no spotbeam from RB-2A is planned for my area L.A. 

But if true at least DirecTV will be the first to use the BSS band and Ciel and Spectrum 5's challenges got happily kicked to the curb ...


----------



## P Smith

twaller said:


> Could 3 days be done if you were willing to burn a ton of fuel?


If you asking about orbital maneuvers.
There are other limits by mechanical design - that external antennas/solar panels, etc could not survive during such fast maneuvers; military object more suitable for fast orbit changes because those are built by different criteria.

For staright delivery from Earth to designated spot, you'll need expensive vehicle. Not sure if we could find one for commercial satellites.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> There are other limits by mechanical design - that external antennas/solar panels, etc could not survive during such fast maneuvers; military object more suitable for fast orbit changes because those are built by different criteria.


Not true. You need to get your facts straight. Orbital accelerations are nothing compared to first and second stage flight. For fast transfer trajectories, you simply design your spacecraft accordingly, including keeping your antennae and photovoltaic arrays stowed until the accelerations are over.


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Wow! ... totally unexpected at this time even before IOT has been officially approved, but before I celebrate, as you note I'll wait for additional confirmation first as this decision seems pretty fast especially considering the issue involved in defining exactly what rights were granted Ciel for BSS service at 103° W from the ITU.
> 
> Even though no spotbeam from RB-2A is planned for my area L.A.
> 
> But if true at least DirecTV will be the first to use the BSS band and Ciel and Spectrum 5's challenges got happily kicked to the curb ...


It's says granted, but still not 100% certain, especially after the update from yesterday.

Lefty, what do u think?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> The most efficient "spot" in an orbit to make adjustments to inclination is at apogee. However, making adjustments at apogee also changes perigee, while making adjustments at perigee changes the apogee. With such a long orbital period, there are many hours in between the optimum times to make any changes at all. And having made a change, it takes many hours for them to be fully realized. Slow and steady is the mantra here, for the most part.


Thanks.

With them needing to get inclination to 0, apogee/perigee to 35,786, and longitude to 76, was just wondering whether they care right now about all 3 or one at time, or some combination. So whether the adjustments they make every rev has all 3 in mind (or 2 or 1).

We saw with D10/D11 that small adjustments at 35,786 helped it drift to the right longitude (slowly ).


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> It's says granted, but still not 100% certain, especially after the update from yesterday.
> 
> Lefty, what do u think?


I don't really know yet . . . I think there must be stuff going on with the FCC database (more paperwork that hasn't been indexed for the web access front-end). I suspect more stuff will show up online today or tomorrow that will explain.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I don't really know yet . . . I think there must be stuff going on with the FCC database (more paperwork that hasn't been indexed for the web access front-end). I suspect more stuff will show up online today or tomorrow that will explain.


Yep, thinking same. Because it still references the old "with conditions".

We wait ...

BUT, it did definitely get removed from the PENDING list today.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . 



Code:


Name			Directv-12 
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-08 16:52:30
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		3.557
RA of A. Node		98.017
Eccentricity		0.2789547
Argument of Perigee	1.135
Revs per day		1.21737103
Period			19h 42m 52s (1182.87 min)
Semi-major axis		37 050 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 007 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		123.370
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	24 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-08-2010 16:52:30
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		3.557
RA of A. Node		98.017
Eccentricity		0.2789547
Argument of Perigee	1.135
Revs per day		1.21737103
Period			19h 42m 52s (1182.87 min)
Semi-major axis		37 050 km
Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 007 km
Element number / age	24 / 0 day(s)

Lon			116.7529° W
Lat			1.9603° N
Alt (km)		37 969.590

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
024 01-08-2010 16:52:30 20 336 x 41 007 + 3.02H @10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°[/COLOR][/B]
022 01-08-2010 13:51:08 20,337 x 41,007 + 7.27H @10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°
021 01-08-2010 06:34:46 20,336 x 41,007 +13.54H @10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°
020 01-07-2010 17:02:24 20,336 x 41,005 +31.39H @ 9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°
019 01-06-2010 09:38:43 [B][COLOR="Red"]20,536[/COLOR][/B] x 41,078 + 4.73H @ 8.39D  34.20°E  0.38°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]3.45°[/COLOR][/B]

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Circling on same orbit ...


----------



## Hoosier205

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-08 16:52:30
> Orbit # at Epoch	18
> Inclination		3.557
> RA of A. Node		98.017
> Eccentricity		0.2789547
> Argument of Perigee	1.135
> Revs per day		1.21737103
> Period			19h 42m 52s (1182.87 min)
> Semi-major axis		37 050 km
> Perigee x Apogee	20 336 x 41 007 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		123.370
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	24 / 0 day(s)


What does TLE stand for?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Circling on same orbit ...


Precessing.


----------



## LameLefty

Hoosier205 said:


> What does TLE stand for?


Two-Line Elements - a standard format for describing an Earth orbit which, when plugged into the appropriate mathematical model, lets you predict and plot the location of a object in 3 dimensions relative to the surface of the Earth.


----------



## P Smith

Orbit is the same, but relative to Earth it precessing as all non GSO.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Orbit is the same, but relative to Earth it precessing as all non GSO.


Not all non-GSO trajectories precess, or at least not in this way. Polar orbits precess entirely differently, as do Molniya and sun-synchronous orbits.


----------



## P Smith

Picky, picky ... Can't allow me to slip thru ... 

Note: exclude different precession of polar orbits and sun-sync kind.


----------



## spear61

Sixto said:


> Yep, thinking same. Because it still references the old "with conditions".
> 
> We wait ...
> 
> BUT, it did definitely get removed from the PENDING list today.


The grant speaks for itself. Directv has until Jan 15 to refuse the license. Otherwise, they have a permit to communicate with the 17ghz payload but not use it for tv transmissions.

I'd guess FCC sees it as a significant issue with no pressing need to authorize 17ghz transmission. They are probably concerned about getting hauled into court over the 17ghz sat licenses and that is the last thing they need (the last time that happened, it stopped up the system for years).

It will be interesting to see how FCC wiggles their way thru this one.


----------



## P Smith

So LL, what you think would be next major move ? 
Lowering inclination ? Circularize orbit ? Simultaneous changes ?


----------



## Sixto

spear61 said:


> The grant speaks for itself. Directv has until Jan 15 to refuse the license. Otherwise, they have a permit to communicate with the 17ghz payload but not use it for tv transmissions.
> 
> I'd guess FCC sees it as a significant issue with no pressing need to authorize 17ghz transmission. They are probably concerned about getting hauled into court over the 17ghz sat licenses and that is the last thing they need (the last time that happened, it stopped up the system for years).
> 
> It will be interesting to see how FCC wiggles their way thru this one.


So your assumption is that today's (1/8/2010) FCC update where the RB-2A application changed today to Granted, and RB-2A today was removed from the Pending list, is just the delayed system update from the 12/15/2009 grant documentation?


----------



## cartrivision

Judging from how fast D12 has been approaching geosynchronous orbit, it may have already made its last pass over Africa and Asia... although past performance is no guarantee of future results.


----------



## P Smith

And by FCC filing it happened not early than 2/15.


----------



## gary900

What do I set up in Orbitron to get it to display the D12 orbit?


----------



## LameLefty

gary900 said:


> What do I set up in Orbitron to get it to display the D12 orbit?


You need the latest TLE, which Sixto kindly posts in the first post of this thread within minutes of it being released by the U.S. Space Command.


----------



## P Smith

No prediction? (post#2045)


----------



## spear61

Sixto said:


> So your assumption is that today's (1/8/2010) FCC update where the RB-2A application changed today to Granted, and RB-2A today was removed from the Pending list, is just the delayed system update from the 12/15/2009 grant documentation?


Yes, that's my take on it


----------



## Ken984

Code:


1 36131u 09075a   10008.84343750 -.00000174  00000-0  10000-3 0   255
2 36131 000.7520 096.8470 1682104 001.9260 184.0430 01.06176712   184


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131u 09075a   10008.84343750 -.00000174  00000-0  10000-3 0   255
> 2 36131 000.7520 096.8470 1682104 001.9260 184.0430 01.06176712   184


so who is gonna toss it in Orbitron and get us some data?


----------



## Ken984

Eccentricity is down quite a bit perigee is up. Closer, but still a long way to go.


----------



## xylo

Ken984 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131u 09075a   10008.84343750 -.00000174  00000-0  10000-3 0   255
> 2 36131 000.7520 096.8470 1682104 001.9260 184.0430 01.06176712   184


P x A: 27,371 x 41036
Eccen: .1682104
Inc: 0.752


----------



## RagingBullFan

Code:


Name			Directv-12 
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-08 20:14:33
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		0.752
RA of A. Node		96.847
Eccentricity		0.1682104
Argument of Perigee	1.926
Revs per day		1.06176712
Period			22h 36m 13s (1356.22 min)
Semi-major axis		40 587 km
Perigee x Apogee	27 381 x 41 036 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		184.043
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	25 / 0 day(s)


----------



## P Smith

Interesting path ... Inclination almost corrected first. 
So from now most of the time it will be apogee/perigee changes. 
And my question from recent remark - there are a couple hundred dead satellites on graveyard orbit ~300 km above equatorial GSO; current orbit crossing that 'belt' two times per turn - how Boeing managing this ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Interesting path ... Inclination almost corrected first.
> So from now most of the time it will be apogee/perigee changes.
> And my question from recent remark - there are a couple hundred dead satellites on graveyard orbit ~300 km above equatorial GSO; current orbit crossing that 'belt' two times per turn - how Boeing managing this ?


Good radar and good computers.


----------



## P Smith

That's granted before launch, but maneuvering - like we saw in Star Wars ? But no pilot on board !


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm pretty certain every orbital change is very carefully planned to avoid all the other cars in the parking lot.


----------



## Sixto

The summary ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-08-2010 20:14:33
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		0.752
RA of A. Node		96.847
Eccentricity		0.1682104
Argument of Perigee	1.926
Revs per day		1.06176712
Period			22h 36m 13s (1356.22 min)
Semi-major axis		40 587 km
Perigee x Apogee	27 381 x 41 036 km
Element number / age	25 / 0 day(s)

Lon			130.1977° W
Lat			0.0823° S
Alt (km)		41 048.130

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
025 01-08-2010 20:14:33 [COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR] x 41,036 + 3.37H @10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°N  [COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
024 01-08-2010 16:52:30 20,336 x 41,007 + 3.02H @10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°
022 01-08-2010 13:51:08 20,337 x 41,007 + 7.27H @10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°
021 01-08-2010 06:34:46 20,336 x 41,007 +13.54H @10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°
020 01-07-2010 17:02:24 20,336 x 41,005 +31.39H @ 9.69D 174.13°E  3.50°N  3.55°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm pretty certain every orbital change is very carefully planned to avoid all the other cars in the parking lot.


I can imagine how it could be done - everything fly with enormous speed. Hat off.


----------



## cartrivision

RagingBullFan said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-08 20:14:33
> Orbit # at Epoch	18
> Inclination		0.752
> RA of A. Node		96.847
> Eccentricity		0.1682104
> Argument of Perigee	1.926
> Revs per day		1.06176712
> Period			22h 36m 13s (1356.22 min)
> Semi-major axis		40 587 km
> Perigee x Apogee	27 381 x 41 036 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		184.043
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	25 / 0 day(s)


Looks like my hunch from earlier this afternoon... that D12 has passed over Africa and Asia for the last time... is even more likely now.


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> Looks like my hunch from earlier this afternoon... that D12 has passed over Africa and Asia for the last time... is even more likely now.


Was just playing with the model. You are correct.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Looks like my hunch from earlier this afternoon... that D12 has passed over Africa and Asia for the last time... is even more likely now.


Barring something REALLY unforseen, I think you're right.

(Or as my friends who are still in the rocket biz say, a "Bad Day™ ")


----------



## hdtvfan0001

This continues to be amazing stuff gentlemen.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]D10	D10	D10	D10		D12	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day[/U]	[u]Low[/u]	[u]High[/u]	[u]Inclin[/u]		[U]Day[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Incli[/U]n[/B]
0.11	414	35813	45.54		0.15	424	35759	45.52
0.58	4900	35783	21.40		0.62	5090	35740	20.58
					0.72	5087	35793	20.58
					1.63	5089	35740	20.59
2.09	4919	35792	21.34					
2.59	4922	36536	21.33		2.64	5090	35736	20.59
					2.88	5096	38353	20.52
3.11	4921	36526	21.33		3.19	5097	38352	20.52
4.20	4923	37127	21.30		4.27	5093	38354	20.52
4.66	4921	37130	21.30					
5.97	8277	37105	14.61					
6.25	8290	37082	14.61					
6.82	8308	37083	14.63					
7.32	17992	37082	5.86		7.27	11698	41011	9.70
8.04	17994	37083	5.86		7.63	11698	41012	9.70
8.75	17994	37083	5.86		8.39	20536	41078	3.45
9.47	17994	37084	5.86					
9.50	31297	37102	0.88		9.69	20336	41005	3.55
10.39	31290	37120	0.91		10.26	20336	41007	3.56
					10.83	27381	41036	0.75
11.72	34206	37119	0.16					
12.29	34100	37245	0.20					
13.44	34099	37129	0.19


----------



## jsquash

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm pretty certain every orbital change is very carefully planned to avoid all the other cars in the parking lot.


I hope they drive better than my WIFE!!!!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> That's granted before launch, but maneuvering - like we saw in Star Wars ? But no pilot on board !


Thankfully the dead satellites don't have pilots either. They would be the ones I'd worry about...  

And to your other post, yes big Hats Off for their excellent work keeping the bullets from hitting each other in space. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

That are *buses* running on crazy speed around the world up there . 'bullets', hehe.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> That are *buses* running on crazy speed around the world up there . 'bullets', hehe.


The "buses" in high earth orbit are separated by dozens to hundreds of miles and all very well tracked.


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> .....
> 
> (Or as my friends who are still in the rocket biz say, a "Bad Day™ ")


My favorite rocket biz euphemism is "uncontrolled burn".

Ernie


----------



## doctor j

JSatTrak Images of D-12 progression to TLE #25.

D-10 - White
D-12_1 - Red
D-12_2 - Orange
D-12_8 - Yellow
D-12_14 - Purple
D-12_19 - Blue
D-12_25 - Green

Polar view and Equatorial view.
Enjoy

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Nice pictures. 
Perhaps we could get them in 3D  ? Or animating ?


----------



## jefbal99

doctor j said:


> JSatTrak Images of D-12 progression to TLE #25.
> 
> D-10 - White
> D-12_1 - Red
> D-12_2 - Orange
> D-12_8 - Yellow
> D-12_14 - Purple
> D-12_19 - Blue
> D-12_25 - Green
> 
> Polar view and Equatorial view.
> Enjoy
> 
> Doctor j


Love the equatorial view, really shows the changes


----------



## loudo

P Smith said:


> Nice pictures.
> Perhaps we could get them in 3D  ? Or animating ?


I am just happy with the education we are receiving from the wealth of information being posted here.


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> JSatTrak Images of D-12 progression to TLE #25.
> 
> D-10 - White
> D-12_1 - Red
> D-12_2 - Orange
> D-12_8 - Yellow
> D-12_14 - Purple
> D-12_19 - Blue
> D-12_25 - Green
> 
> Polar view and Equatorial view.
> Enjoy
> 
> Doctor j


Nice. Post#1 updated with your great work.


----------



## doctor j

The D-12 orbit is nearly cicular just with the center 2 to 3 edit (Thousand) miles off from the center of the earth.

Further changes likely to be small and may now be XIPS rather than the major liquid propulsion.
Nearing time based on prior Boeing report for solar panel deployment.

Unless other requests I think the orbital changes can be demonstrated against the most recent TLE only rather than the whole series.
I'd keep the progression series as a study guide.

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Another different thought.

For lite reading i've been studing the IP based MFH-3 MDU/hospitality-hotel Directv system.

Although, thats a total different tail , the point that i found that I want to share and seek expansion is multiple references in the 6 channel swithing to "future use"

In the equipment the ODU initial RF backbone is like any other Directv system.
4 inputs 18v,13v, 18v 22MHz , & 13v 22MHz for KA/KU 101/110/119/99/103.
2 Flexports are discussed as now for 72.5(if needed) and 95.

The NEW statments are Flexport 1 for 72.5 or "FUTURE USE".

This to me signifies that THE BSS stack could be integrated into the present plan especially if limited or local usage is the plan. RT and LT stacks could be singled out on Flexport 1 or both used on #1 and #2. The equipment already allows voltage changes it's just not needed now.

If both RT and LT BSS and International 95 are needed the my understanding fails.

Anyway, to me, it's a logical place to put the BSS signal w/o major changes in equipment backbones.

Any Discussion??

Doctor j


----------



## JoeTheDragon

doctor j said:


> Another different thought.
> 
> For lite reading i've been studing the IP based MFH-3 MDU/hospitality-hotel Directv system.
> 
> Although, thats a total different tail , the point that i found that I want to share and seek expansion is multiple references in the 6 channel swithing to "future use"
> 
> In the equipment the ODU initial RF backbone is like any other Directv system.
> 4 inputs 18v,13v, 18v 22MHz , & 13v 22MHz for KA/KU 101/110/119/99/103.
> 2 Flexports are discussed as now for 72.5(if needed) and 95.
> 
> The NEW statments are Flexport 1 for 72.5 or "FUTURE USE".
> 
> This to me signifies that THE BSS stack could be integrated into the present plan especially if limited or local usage is the plan. RT and LT stacks could be singled out on Flexport 1 or both used on #1 and #2. The equipment already allows voltage changes it's just not needed now.
> 
> If both RT and LT BSS and International 95 are needed the my understanding fails.
> 
> Anyway, to me, it's a logical place to put the BSS signal w/o major changes in equipment backbones.
> 
> Any Discussion??
> 
> Doctor j


also some MDU/hospitality-hotel systems have in house channels where to they fit in?


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> Another different thought.
> 
> For lite reading i've been studing the IP based MFH-3 MDU/hospitality-hotel Directv system.
> 
> Although, thats a total different tail , the point that i found that I want to share and seek expansion is multiple references in the 6 channel swithing to "future use"
> 
> In the equipment the ODU initial RF backbone is like any other Directv system.
> 4 inputs 18v,13v, 18v 22MHz , & 13v 22MHz for KA/KU 101/110/119/99/103.
> 2 Flexports are discussed as now for 72.5(if needed) and 95.
> 
> The NEW statments are Flexport 1 for 72.5 or "FUTURE USE".
> 
> This to me signifies that THE BSS stack could be integrated into the present plan especially if limited or local usage is the plan. RT and LT stacks could be singled out on Flexport 1 or both used on #1 and #2. The equipment already allows voltage changes it's just not needed now.
> 
> If both RT and LT BSS and International 95 are needed the my understanding fails.
> 
> Anyway, to me, it's a logical place to put the BSS signal w/o major changes in equipment backbones.
> 
> Any Discussion??
> 
> Doctor j


First a note of correction;

It's a 22 "KHz" control tone, not 22 "MHz" 

Second, the re-tasking of the flexports to accommodate the new BSS band by means of a separate dish was discussed before a long while back and in fact I was at the time keeping a separate old Phase I dish up just in case before I became aware of the spotbeam area assignments for RB-2A.

But I'm not really sold on it so much now since I don't see DirecTV (or even dish net nowadays) wanting two dish solutions. So if I were to guess the reception of the BSS band will require a new LNB and therefore a changeout on the current SlimLine dish.

And since the stack plan is presently full, most likely the LNB will have to be of a SWiM type with additional inputs for the BSS slots.


----------



## Jeremy W

JoeTheDragon said:


> also some MDU/hospitality-hotel systems have in house channels where to they fit in?


They don't matter as far as the satellite inputs go. They're inserted later on.


----------



## doctor j

HoTat2 said:


> First a note of correction;
> 
> It's a 22 "KHz" control tone, not 22 "MHz"
> 
> Second, the re-tasking of the flexports to accommodate the new BSS band by means of a separate dish was discussed before a long while back and in fact I was at the time keeping a separate old Phase I dish up just in case before I became aware of the spotbeam area assignments for RB-2A.
> 
> But I'm not really sold on it so much now since I don't see DirecTV (or even dish net nowadays) wanting two dish solutions. So if I were to guess the reception of the BSS band will require a new LNB and therefore a changeout on the current SlimLine dish.
> 
> And since the stack plan is presently full, most likely the LNB will have to be of a SWiM type with additional inputs for the BSS slots.


The LNB could have a fifth wire to switch WB68 or SWM8 or have the SWM incorporated into the SWM LNB . That gives multiple options to upgrade those needed and not a lot of older equipment that would be obsolete.

Doctor j


----------



## Shades228

HoTat2 said:


> First a note of correction;
> 
> It's a 22 "KHz" control tone, not 22 "MHz"
> 
> Second, the re-tasking of the flexports to accommodate the new BSS band by means of a separate dish was discussed before a long while back and in fact I was at the time keeping a separate old Phase I dish up just in case before I became aware of the spotbeam area assignments for RB-2A.
> 
> But I'm not really sold on it so much now since I don't see DirecTV (or even dish net nowadays) wanting two dish solutions. So if I were to guess the reception of the BSS band will require a new LNB and therefore a changeout on the current SlimLine dish.
> 
> And since the stack plan is presently full, most likely the LNB will have to be of a SWiM type with additional inputs for the BSS slots.


They my just do an lnb change out if the current reflector is already designed that way.


----------



## HoTat2

doctor j said:


> The LNB could have a fifth wire to switch WB68 or SWM8 or have the SWM incorporated into the SWM LNB . That gives multiple options to upgrade those needed and not a lot of older equipment that would be obsolete.
> 
> Doctor j


OK;

So I can get a clear picture of what we're talking about here;

To take this from the top and using the current SlimLine ODU design as a basis. DirecTV is currently licensed for BSS service at 99° 103° and 110° W.L. nominal orbital slots.

Now presently each satellite slot requires its own feed horn, but if close enough can share a common scaler ring assembly at the month of the feed horn such as what is done with the main 99°/101°/103° oval shaped ring assembly on the SlimLine-3 and 5

Now following the opening at the feed horn month the remaining tubular section functions as a short waveguide with two small pickup probes for the left and right circular signals (except for the 110° which only has one for the left) extending into the guide at the opposite end which are actually the "antennas."

OK, now each antenna probe feeds a separate high gain low noise amplifier and block frequency down-converter circuit.

Then the two outputs from each LNB circuit now feed the same number of inputs of either a conventional (or legacy) multiline or a SWiM type integrated multiswitch.

Then finally the outputs of the integrated multiswitch, either 4 for the legacy multiline switch type or one for the SWiM actually form the outputs of what is collectively called the dish "LNB."

Now where in all this can a reasonable modification likely be made to accommodate one or more BSS slots into the current Ka/Ku ODU design?


----------



## doctor j

As far as I know it would require a new LNB but most of the other equipment could stay the same. Receiver software changes could accomplish the correct "tuning".

Doctor j


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Jeremy W said:


> They don't matter as far as the satellite inputs go. They're inserted later on.


But the MFH-3 MDU pdf says that it coming soon and they can show up on the a direct tv box.


----------



## bobnielsen

JoeTheDragon said:


> But the MFH-3 MDU pdf says that it coming soon and they can show up on the a direct tv box.


IIRC, MFH-3 uses ethernet, not the satellite inputs (and I think the boxes are modified in some way from the normal receivers). I haven't seen any recent details but suspect there is some sort of master unit which combines and feeds the channels to the receivers, so in-house content is probably added at that point.


----------



## Jeremy W

bobnielsen said:


> IIRC, MFH-3 uses ethernet, not the satellite inputs (and I think the boxes are modified in some way from the normal receivers).


The software is different, but the hardware is the same.


bobnielsen said:


> I haven't seen any recent details but suspect there is some sort of master unit which combines and feeds the channels to the receivers, so in-house content is probably added at that point.


This is correct.


----------



## spear61

What happens to a top notch thread when it is hijacked?


----------



## Jeremy W

spear61 said:


> What happens to a top notch thread when it is hijacked?


What happens when someone pollutes a thread with pointless posts like this?

Oops, now there are two.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

spear61 said:


> What happens to a top notch thread when it is hijacked?


Someone comes along and does this...

:backtotop



Mike


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Yes guys... Please keep this thread on topic. Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

Update#26 on the way ... inclination .11 ... 29 492 x 41 037 km


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Update#26 on the way ...


You're quick. I was just coming to post it. 

Getting much closer, boys and girls.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-10-2010 17:03:24
Orbit # at Epoch	20
Inclination		0.114
RA of A. Node		97.596
Eccentricity		0.1386116
Argument of Perigee	1.377
Revs per day		1.02162883
Period			23h 29m 30s (1409.50 min)
Semi-major axis		41 643 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 492 x 41 037 km
Element number / age	26 / 1 day(s)

Lon			88.7547° W
Lat			0.0205° S
Alt (km)		41 057.960

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
026 01-10-2010 17:03:24 [COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR] x 41,037 +44.81H @12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
025 01-08-2010 20:14:33 [B][COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR][/B] x 41,036 + 3.37H @10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°N  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/B]
024 01-08-2010 16:52:30 20,336 x 41,007 + 3.02H @10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°
022 01-08-2010 13:51:08 20,337 x 41,007 + 7.27H @10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°
021 01-08-2010 06:34:46 20,336 x 41,007 +13.54H @10.26D 155.89°E  3.55°N  3.56°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

And it's still a day old.


----------



## RAD

I wonder if D12 will follow what some others have done, no TLE's for a few days and then WHAM, it's parked?


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Update#26 on the way ... inclination .11 ... 29 492 x 41 037 km


And that's still 24hrs old


----------



## HoTat2

Yep;

D12's maneuvers appear to be a combination of raising perigee yet still maintaining that high apogee to conserve fuel on bringing down the remaining inclination I suppose ...


----------



## P Smith

I think it would more complicating than '_conserve fuel on bringing down the remaining inclination'_ - it would be difficult to circularize an orbit when the sat crossing Clark belt two times per rotation (precessing) in proximity other GSO objects.

Can we see ground track for the last TLE, please ?


----------



## doctor j

Apogee +5251 KM from target
Perigee - 6294 KM from target

It is almost a circle just offset!

Polar and equatorial plots:
Red- D-12_24
Yellow- D-12_25
Green D-12_26
White D-10


----------



## doctor j

Ground track is on equator oscillating from 95 w to 61w longitude.
At 95 degrees or so, headed east, "now" at least by TLE #26. 
Oscillation moving east about 3 to 5 degrees per day.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I think it would more complicating than '_conserve fuel on bringing down the remaining inclination'_ - it would be difficult to circularize an orbit when the sat crossing Clark belt two times per rotation (precessing) in proximity other GSO objects.


It's not. "Proximity" is relative.


----------



## P Smith

How many satellites locating in a range 95 w to 61w ? So, telling it is easy task while D12 oscillating there is sort of oversimplifying.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> How many satellites locating in a range 95 w to 61w ? So, telling it is easy task while D12 oscillating there is sort of oversimplifying.


Easy? Not by hand. But for a good laptop with good software? No problemo. Even give you real-time stats and order fries for you. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Would be beneficial for all of us to see latest ground track with attitude values. And marked spots on Clark belt taken by other satellites in the range.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Would be beneficial for all of us to see latest ground track with attitude values. And marked spots on Clark belt taken by other satellites in the range.


Go right ahead. Download any of dozens of freely available satellite tracking programs and then download the TLEs yourself. It's not hard, really. And then do the math for the circumference on a circle with a radius of some 26,200 miles or so. Even "neighboring" satellites aren't that close together (miles apart).

And then realize that the people who do this professionally use seriously high-end stuff like STK and various proprietary extensions or custom-written applications to model trajectory maneuvers - and they very, very rarely "overshoot" an orbit or make a mistake that affects other spacecraft. They ARE professionals, after all.


----------



## dennisj00

And we think our jobs are tough!!


----------



## Sixto

D12 is starting to look more like the D11 trip then D10.

D11 also got to 29k x 41k within two weeks, and then slowly tightened the orbit over several weeks: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1699590#post1699590


----------



## dhines

Sixto said:


> D12 is starting to look more like the D11 trip then D10.
> 
> D11 also got to 29k x 41k within two weeks, and then slowly tightened the orbit over several weeks: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1699590#post1699590


granted, i am probably one of the least informed in this thread . . . but wasn't that to be expected?

reason being, D10 was really needed in a hurry . . . so the shortening of the sat life span was a worthwhile tradeoff for getting the bird set fast. the D11 wasn't under such requirements, so it made sense to take the slow and steady approach. IMO the same goes for D12 (that went for D11), i would rather extend the life of the bird and have it ready a month or so later.

but then again, i am sure i over simplified and completely missed the point


----------



## DodgerKing

An Excel graph of D12 Apogee and Perogee by date


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> An Excel graph of D12 Apogee and Perogee by date


Looks very familiar, from our D10/D11 days!

Yep, as soon as it gets circular, we can start the target date analysis like last time.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> Looks very familiar, from our D10/D11 days!
> 
> Yep, as soon as it gets circular, we can start the target date analysis like last time.


I did the same with D11 (actually, I had my PreCalculus students create the graphs)

Here is an old D11 one I dug up from my attachment archive: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13805&d=1211739447 http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13788&d=1211659858


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> I did the same with D11 (actually, I had my PreCalculus students create the graphs)
> 
> Here is an old D11 one I dug up from my attachment archive: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13805&d=1211739447


Yep, just looked through my notes from D11.

Once D11 got circular, we moved about 5.5km per hour over an extended period. Towards the end, more like 6km per hour.

This orbit still needs a little more of a bump, but we're 43.71 to 52.45 days away at the moment. 2/22/2010-3/3/2010.

Do expect it to get a little better.

This is if they follow the same D11 approach.

This also would match the FCC Filing which stated no earlier then 2/15/2010.

But we're still a little early. Need to get the middle to 35,786 first.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Looks very familiar, from our D10/D11 days!
> 
> Yep, as soon as it gets circular, we can start the target date analysis like last time.


Sixto, any chance to continue support comparable TLE table ([D10]D11/D12) include inclination ?


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto, any chance to continue support comparable TLE table ([D10]D11/D12) include inclination ?


I was just considering it, but it really doesn't appear to be that important, since we're already almost to 0 inclination.

Was just playing with the data and we may be able to use the same model as D11, and I can start tracking it daily.

Right now, I'd say 2/23/2010 5:03am ET (assuming 6km/hr)

But much can change until we get circular.

With D11, we got pretty good at the projections. Was always between 5km-6km/hr, average of 5.8km/hr over the last 30 days until GSO.


----------



## Sixto

Ok, continuing to analyze this.

The key is if they raise the bottom by 1000km without changing the top. Then we'd be set.

Then we'd look for the top/bottom to start to slowly close together. 

As soon as we see this trend start, we'll get good at projecting.

D11 took 7-10 days to get that extra 1000km.

We'll see ...


----------



## P Smith

Interesting to see if Boeing used same path for D12, perhaps DodgerKing's table will be good enough.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Interesting to see if Boeing used same path for D12, perhaps DodgerKing's table will be good enough.


Right now I'd say yes, but we'll know for sure very soon.


----------



## smiddy

DodgerKing said:


> An Excel graph of D12 Apogee and Perogee by date


Nice the lines are converging, that is what we want to see.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Nice the lines are converging, that is what we want to see.


Yep, what we want to see is the top and the bottom converging!  (Right now it's just been the bottom).

Then it's 5-6km per hour if it follows the same as D11.

We still need another 1000km for the bottom before it starts, assuming they've decided on the same approach.

Then we'd be 36-40 days away after it starts (assuming D11 timeline).


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Yep, what we want to see is the top and the bottom converging!  (Right now it's just been the bottom).
> 
> Then it's 5-6km per hour if it follows the same as D11.
> 
> We still need another 1000km for the bottom before it starts, assuming they've decided on the same approach.
> 
> Then we'd be 36-40 days away after it starts (assuming D11 timeline).


Thanks, that was exactly what I was wondering. You're the man, man!


----------



## ejjames

Most of this talk is out of my league, but I follow as much as I can with great interest.

I was wondering if someone could give me the solar panel length both on the first DBS-1 bird compared to the current generation D10-12. I'd just like to get a mental image of total size difference.

thanks!
ej


----------



## P Smith

Try Gunter's Space Page - http://space.skyrocket.de/home.htm


----------



## ejjames

Thanks!


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> D12 is starting to look more like the D11 trip then D10.
> 
> D11 also got to 29k x 41k within two weeks, and then slowly tightened the orbit over several weeks: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1699590#post1699590


Though I admit to still not really understanding D11's need for such a super-synchronous orbit with an apogee exceeding 41,000 km during it's orbit raising phase.

D12, yes to reduce the energy requirements for orbit plane changing of the inclination, but D11 used an equatorial launch and therefore had no such need.

So where was actual energy/fuel savings gained by D11's use of a high apogee super-synchronous equatorial orbit during its raising?


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> Go right ahead. Download any of dozens of freely available satellite tracking programs and then download the TLEs yourself. It's not hard, really. And then do the math for the circumference on a circle with a radius of some 26,200 miles or so. Even "neighboring" satellites aren't that close together (miles apart).
> 
> And then realize that the people who do this professionally use seriously high-end stuff like STK and various proprietary extensions or custom-written applications to model trajectory maneuvers - and they very, very rarely "overshoot" an orbit or make a mistake that affects other spacecraft. They ARE professionals, after all.


Generally true. But it only takes one mistake like using Imperial instead of Metric and you have a very bad day (not saying it would affect other spacecraft). I just want my HD


----------



## hdtvfan0001

For what its worth....

As one of the DBSTalkers on site at this weekend's CES, I asked more than one DirecTV staff (they had no booth there as you may know) - *when* D12 was going to go "live into production with new HD channels activated"...

I got this answer twice on 2 separate days - April/May 2010.

That's it - but its information received in person from a very reliable source, and appears in line with our speculation, asssumptions, and guestimates.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I got this answer twice on 2 separate days - April/May 2010.


Yep. At 76 by mid to late Feb. Test 30 days. Drift to 103 for 20 days. If all goes well then April. Or early May.


----------



## Ernie

HoTat2 said:


> Though I admit to still not really understanding D11's need for such a super-synchronous orbit with an apogee exceeding 41,000 km during it's orbit raising phase.
> 
> D12, yes to reduce the energy requirements for orbit plane changing of the inclination, but D11 used an equatorial launch and therefore had no such need.
> 
> So where was actual energy/fuel savings gained by D11's use of a high apogee super-synchronous equatorial orbit during its raising?


The Zenit used by Sea Launch is a less powerful rocket, but uses earth rotation and a zero inclination launch to the maximum. So, both of the payloads get to GTO in about the same condition. Since they are both pushing the throw weight limits of there respective launch vehicles, they both require every trick in the book to get them to GSO with the required amount of "fuel" left for station maintenance and disposal.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . 



Code:


Name			Directv-12 027
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
Orbit # at Epoch	22
Inclination		0.170
RA of A. Node		275.002
Eccentricity		0.1245564
Argument of Perigee	184.208
Revs per day		1.00275905
Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		175.950
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)


----------



## HoTat2

Ernie said:


> The Zenit used by Sea Launch is a less powerful rocket, but uses earth rotation and a zero inclination launch to the maximum. So, both of the payloads get to GTO in about the same condition. Since they are both pushing the throw weight limits of there respective launch vehicles, they both require every trick in the book to get them to GSO with the required amount of "fuel" left for station maintenance and disposal.
> 
> Ernie


OK;

But can you or anyone else suggest a logical reason for the "trick" of using a high apogee super-synchronous orbit during D11's raising after an equatorial launch?

D12's reasoning was obvious for aid in plane changing at apogee, but why D11?


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Yep. At 76 by mid to late Feb. Test 30 days. Drift to 103 for 20 days. If all goes well then April. Or early May.


And yet I still come back and read this thread at least daily. :nono:


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> OK;
> 
> But can you or anyone else suggest a logical reason for the "trick" of using a high apogee super-synchronous orbit during D11's raising after an equatorial launch?
> 
> D12's reasoning was obvious for aid in plane changing at apogee, but why D11?


For one thing, the launch platform is never quite EXACTLY equatorial - it's launching from deep water, after all. It's close but there are always going to be variables. There are also variables in launch vehicle guidance and control that put uncertainties into the trajectory which are later corrected during orbit-raising. Zenit is a much smaller booster than Proton, so even though it has the advantage of an equatorial launch, as Ernie points out the optimum techniques to finalize the orbit don't vary all that much. You still have to phase the orbit such that it ends up "parked" in its slot rather than 180 degrees around the world from the launch site, and it's still much cheaper in terms of delta-V to make plane changes from very high apogees than to do it anywhere else along the orbital trajectory.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Yep. At 76 by mid to late Feb. Test 30 days. Drift to 103 for 20 days. If all goes well then April. Or early May.


Looks like the business and technical folks are all on the same page... 


oldfantom said:


> And yet I still come back and read this thread at least daily. :nono:


Thou art not alone. :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12 027
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
> Orbit # at Epoch	22
> Inclination		0.170
> RA of A. Node		275.002
> Eccentricity		0.1245564
> Argument of Perigee	184.208
> Revs per day		1.00275905
> Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		175.950
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)


Perigee up another 1000km


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12 027
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
> Orbit # at Epoch	22
> Inclination		0.170
> RA of A. Node		275.002
> Eccentricity		0.1245564
> Argument of Perigee	184.208
> Revs per day		1.00275905
> Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		175.950
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)


You left out the actual TLE.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> You left out the actual TLE.


Sixto will get around to posting it at the top of the thread for those who don't know where/how to find it on their own.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> We still need another 1000km for the bottom before it starts ....


and today we got the 1000!

Love it when a plan comes together. 

Will update when back to PC.

Very nice.


----------



## ooogie

Looking forward to may surprises


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12 027
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
> Orbit # at Epoch	22
> Inclination		0.170
> RA of A. Node		275.002
> Eccentricity		0.1245564
> Argument of Perigee	184.208
> Revs per day		1.00275905
> Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		175.950
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)


Well ...

I guess my mind is a bit slow today, and even on its best days I still have trouble visualizing orbital mechanics.

But anyone care to try an explain, or maybe a best guest at it, how the right ascension to the ascending node and argument of perigee get shifted so radically between the current and all previous TLEs?

Both are now approximately 180° away or on the opposite sides of the orbit now, as though the apogee and perigee points have changed positions.


----------



## Sixto

We're now exactly where we were expecting, with the analysis from last night. The 1000km we needed, we got today. 

The middle of the orbit is now exactly 35,786km which is perfect, and we're at 1.00 revs per day.

We're also very close to 76°W, though this may change slightly each day depending on when the TLE is released.

The next step is to collapse the orbit day-by-day, just like D11.

Previous experience would project a parked range of: 2/17/2010 10:16pm to 2/21/2010 5:51am. This assumes an exact progression as D11.

It actually looks like we might be better then D11, but we'll now track D12 daily and develop the D12 progression, and adjust the projection accordingly.

This is great progress. Just as we thought.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-12-2010 15:56:28
Orbit # at Epoch	22
Inclination		0.170
RA of A. Node		275.002
Eccentricity		0.1245564
Argument of Perigee	184.208
Revs per day		1.00275905
Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.0877° W
Lat			0.0196° S
Alt (km)		41 051.840

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
027 01-12-2010 15:56:28 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +46.88H @14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°[/COLOR][/B]
026 01-10-2010 17:03:24 [B][COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +44.81H @12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/B]
025 01-08-2010 20:14:33 [B][COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR][/B] x 41,036 + 3.37H @10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/B]
024 01-08-2010 16:52:30 20,336 x 41,007 + 3.02H @10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°
022 01-08-2010 13:51:08 20,337 x 41,007 + 7.27H @10.56D 116.08°W  3.49°N  3.56°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> Sixto will get around to posting it at the top of the thread for those who don't know where/how to find it on their own.


Of course he will.... and anyone who knows where/how to find it on their own can also use it to derive the very same information that you posted... completely eliminating the need for your post altogether... but that doesn't change the fact that your post labeled "New TLE" did not actually contain a new TLE.

In other words, if you have the information, why not share it instead of making people wait for Sixto to update the first post, or look elsewhere for it.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Of course he will.... and anyone who knows where/how to find it on their own can also use it to derive the very same information that you posted... completely eliminating the need for your post altogether... but that doesn't change the fact that your post labeled "New TLE" did not actually contain a new TLE.
> 
> In other words, if you have the information, why not share it instead of making people wait for Sixto to update the first post, or look elsewhere for it.


Don't violate Wheaton's Law, thanks.


----------



## Sixto

More on RB-2A:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794198​


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> Don't violate Wheaton's Law, thanks.


I think that applies more to someone who says "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling anyone". I really don't see the point of that. :shrug:


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> I think that applies more to someone who says "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling anyone". I really don't see the point of that. :shrug:


Because it's not a secret at all. And I posted the derived data as soon as I had derived it since Sixto was out of pocket for a little while.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> I think that applies more to someone who says "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling anyone". I really don't see the point of that. :shrug:


That analogy seems a bit extreme. No one following this thread will really suspect it is a "secret" by any stretch.

Lamelefty was announcing that more data will be forthcoming, as we also all know that Sixto would get the data posted in his format very shortly.

And that others would have their analysis up very soon too.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ctaranto

cartrivision said:


> I think that applies more to someone who says "I've got a secret, but I'm not telling anyone". I really don't see the point of that. :shrug:


What part of this:



Code:


Name			Directv-12 027
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
Orbit # at Epoch	22
Inclination		0.170
RA of A. Node		275.002
Eccentricity		0.1245564
Argument of Perigee	184.208
Revs per day		1.00275905
Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		175.950
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)

Wasn't good enough until Sixto posted? :shrug:

/c


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> That analogy seems a bit extreme. No one following this thread will really suspect it is a "secret" by any stretch.
> 
> Lamelefty was announcing that more data will be forthcoming, as we also all know that Sixto would get the data posted in his format very shortly.
> 
> And that others would have their analysis up very soon too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


*WOW* Tom - obviously *YOU* lost a bet....looking at that Avatar....:eek2::lol:


----------



## bwaldron

ooogie said:


> Looking forward to may surprises


I don't want any surprises w/ this bird


----------



## DodgerKing

Graph #2


----------



## hdtvfan0001

That graph made me think of something the DirecTV staff member told me this weekend at CES.

Since those folks are known to frequent DBSTalk...one commented that they are "regularly amazed at the level of knowledge shown by people who post" here...."the amount of scientific data and information about the satellites is impressive", he said.

Just wanted to share that tidbit.


----------



## P Smith

DodgerKing said:


> Graph #2


Could we see (dashes) of D11 on same graph ? Please.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Could we see (dashes) of D11 on same graph ? Please.


D11 was exactly the same starting at day 15.79.


----------



## LameLefty

Another new TLE . . .



Code:


Name			Directv-12 028
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-13 00:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	22
Inclination		0.073
RA of A. Node		112.222
Eccentricity		0.0892228
Argument of Perigee	347.884
Revs per day		1.02382975
Period			23h 26m 29s (1406.48 min)
Semi-major axis	41 583 km
Perigee x Apogee	31 495 x 38 915 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		292.542
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	28 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

Not sure I trust these TLE's with wacky time stamps, but they sure are moving this puppy quicker then D11 if the TLE is accurate.

Target now: +29.80 (2/11/10 2:10 PM) to +32.51(2/14/10 7:10 AM)



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-13-2010 00:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	22
Inclination		0.073
RA of A. Node		112.222
Eccentricity		0.0892228
Argument of Perigee	347.884
Revs per day		1.02382975
Period			23h 26m 29s (1406.48 min)
Semi-major axis		41 583 km
Perigee x Apogee	31 495 x 38 915 km
Element number / age	28 / 0 day(s)

Lon			89.5645° W
Lat			0.0748° S
Alt (km)		34 076.860

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
028 01-13-2010 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31 495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38 915[/COLOR][/B] + 8.06H @14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S [COLOR="Red"] 0.07°[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
027 01-12-2010 15:56:28 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +46.88H @14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°
026 01-10-2010 17:03:24 [B][COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +44.81H @12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/B]
025 01-08-2010 20:14:33 [B][COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR][/B] x 41,036 + 3.37H @10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/B]
024 01-08-2010 16:52:30 20,336 x 41,007 + 3.02H @10.69D 116.75°W  1.96°N  3.56°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


----------



## jrodfoo

Sixto said:


> it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


Wow... Impressive...


----------



## RobertE

Sixto said:


> it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


Any possibility that there's a small but significant typo in that FCC filling and it's supposed to be in place 1) No earlier than *1*/15/2010 not 2/15 or 2) No *later* than xxx ?


----------



## doctor j

Updated Pictures:

Red - D-12_25
Yellow - D-12_26
Orange - D-12_27
Green - D-12_28
White - D-10

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

RobertE said:


> Any possibility that there's a small but significant typo in that FCC filling and it's supposed to be in place 1) No earlier than *1*/15/2010 not 2/15 or 2) No *later* than xxx ?


D11 took 53 days to get from where D12 was with update #27 to parked. D12 needs to do it in 32-33 days to meet 2/15 ... so right on schedule!

Now we'll see if it returns to a normal pace of 5.5-6km/hour, or continues the fast path.


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Updated Pictures:
> 
> Red - D-12_25
> Yellow - D-12_26
> Orange - D-12_27
> Green - D-12_28
> White - D-10
> 
> Doctor j


Basically, D12 is now circular, just offset. It's easy the rest of the way. Maybe slow, maybe fast. We get to watch and see. Looking great.


----------



## R0am3r

Sixto said:


> it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


That is a huge change! I guess we wait for the next report to see how accurate these numbers are.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


Definitely different flight plan.


----------



## xylo

Sixto said:


> it took D11 20 days to do what D12 just did in 1 with this last update.


You're not complaining about D12 getting into its IOT slot faster than expected... are you? :grin:


----------



## smiddy

[ThickSouthOfTheBorderAccent=ON]
Loooking gooood!
[ThickSouthOfTheBorderAccent=OFF]


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> [ThickSouthOfTheBorderAccent=ON]
> Loooking gooood!
> [ThickSouthOfTheBorderAccent=OFF]


You forgot something with that post, Smiddy.










:lol:


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> Could we see (dashes) of D11 on same graph ? Please.


If I still had D11 data

Here is an old map I created of D11 through it's last few TLE's








Notice that I did not start doing graphs of D11 until much later anyway. It is still probably too early to do them with D12


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> If I still had D11 data


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


Sixto, the man, delivers again. I'll do something tomorrow.

D12 is progressing a lot faster than D11 by TLE readings. It is not going to match up exactly.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> D12 is progressing a lot faster than D11 by TLE readings. It is not going to match up exactly.


Best way is by day#, not TLE. Good luck!


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Sixto, the man, delivers again. I'll do something tomorrow.
> 
> D12 is progressing a lot faster than D11 by TLE readings. It is not going to match up exactly.


This format might make it a little easier, D11 on left, D12 on right:


Code:


[B][U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]		[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Ga[/U]p[/B]
0.00	243	36067	35824		0.15	424	35759	35335
0.48	273	36476	36203		0.62	5090	35740	30650
0.85	268	36474	36206		0.72	5087	35793	30706
4.50	463	36484	36021		0.75	5084	35795	30711
4.97	473	38991	38518		0.76	5087	35793	30706
5.47	463	38996	38533		1.63	5088	35741	30653
6.87	474	40738	40264		1.63	5089	35740	30651
6.87	469	40742	40273		2.64	5090	35736	30646
6.96	468	40742	40274		2.70	5097	38363	33266
7.47	468	40744	40276		2.88	5096	38353	33257
7.97	7392	40992	33600		3.19	5097	38352	33255
8.97	7388	40988	33600		4.27	5093	38354	33261
9.19	7386	40989	33603		7.27	11698	41011	29313
10.42	7387	40988	33601		7.63	11698	41012	29314
12.12	17363	41066	23703		8.19	11698	41011	29313
12.26	17362	41069	23707		8.39	20536	41078	20542
13.05	17362	41064	23702		9.69	20336	41005	20669
13.37	17361	41067	23706		10.26	20336	41007	20671
15.98	29456	41232	11776		10.56	20337	41007	20670
16.00	25710	41156	15446		10.69	20336	41007	20671
16.01	30207	41363	11156		10.83	27381	41036	13655
16.27	29624	41227	11603		12.70	29492	41037	11545
16.81	29622	41228	11606		14.65	30534	41037	10503
16.96	29621	41228	11607		14.98	31495	38915	7420
17.83	29621	41228	11607					
17.95	29621	41228	11607					
18.93	29621	41228	11607					
18.93	29622	41228	11606					
19.72	29622	41228	11606					
20.80	29623	41226	11603					
20.90	29723	41211	11488					
21.89	29864	41198	11334					
22.87	29861	41195	11334					
23.86	30007	41174	11167					
24.85	30245	41151	10906					
24.86	30244	41142	10898					
25.87	30244	41132	10888					
26.12	30245	41133	10888					
26.64	30387	41123	10736					
27.17	30507	41115	10608					
27.69	30531	41110	10579					
28.17	30594	41101	10507					
29.09	30615	41065	10450					
30.50	30883	40871	9988					
32.38	31115	40623	9508					
33.15	31309	40411	9102					
34.41	31369	40366	8997					
35.85	31660	39991	8331
35.97	31742	39996	8254
36.96	31867	39844	7977
36.97	31866	39844	7978
39.73	32302	39428	7126
41.14	32285	39398	7113
41.88	32598	39086	6488
42.20	32706	39086	6380
42.45	32732	39025	6293
42.64	32722	38942	6220
42.72	32718	38919	6201
42.77	32732	38987	6255
44.54	32976	38782	5806
46.77	33276	38434	5158
47.39	33440	38444	5004
47.93	33458	38289	4831
48.84	33596	38136	4540
49.41	33759	38125	4366
50.39	33724	38069	4345
51.09	33988	37798	3810
52.74	34111	37722	3611
54.33	34178	37605	3427
54.33	34365	37443	3078
55.83	34423	37211	2788
56.79	34610	37078	2468
58.06	34793	36906	2113
58.44	34888	36903	2015
60.84	35206	36441	1235
61.33	35352	36444	1092
61.72	35350	36345	995
62.67	35496	36217	721
62.67	35496	36217	721
63.71	35441	36299	858
63.76	35600	36052	452
64.77	35748	35888	140
64.84	35739	35884	145
65.67	35747	35804	57
66.80	35786	35792	6
68.70	35785	35789	4
69.67	35786	35788	2


----------



## Sixto

Found it all. D10, D11, D12 day-by-day:


Code:


[B]	D10	D10	D10	D11	D11	D11	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U][/B]
1	414	35813	35399	268	36474	36206	5087	35793	30706
2	4919	35792	30873				5089	35740	30651
3	4921	36526	31605				5097	38352	33255
4	4923	37127	32204				5093	38354	33261
5				463	38996	38533			
6	8277	37105	28828						
7	17992	37082	19090	468	40744	40276	11698	41011	29313
8	17994	37083	19089	7392	40992	33600	20536	41078	20542
9				7386	40989	33603			
10	31290	37120	5830	7387	40988	33601	20336	41007	20671
11	34206	37119	2913				27381	41036	13655
12	34100	37245	3145	17362	41069	23707			
13	34099	37129	3030	17361	41067	23706	29492	41037	11545
14	34088	37109	3021						
15	34085	37109	3024				31495	38915	7420
16	34088	37104	3016	29624	41227	11603			
17	34123	37099	2976	29621	41228	11607			
18	34179	37102	2923	29621	41228	11607			
19	34239	37050	2811	29622	41228	11606			
20				29622	41228	11606			
21	34449	37082	2633	29723	41211	11488			
22				29864	41198	11334			
23				29861	41195	11334			
24	34759	36906	2147	30007	41174	11167			
25				30244	41142	10898			
26	35111	36572	1461	30245	41133	10888			
27				30507	41115	10608			
28				30531	41110	10579			
29	34923	36787	1864	30615	41065	10450			
30									
31	35603	36177	574	30883	40871	9988
32	35644	36057	413	31115	40623	9508
33	35630	36051	421	31309	40411	9102
34	35663	35964	301	31369	40366	8997
35	35740	35919	179			
36	35737	35864	127	31742	39996	8254
37	35739	35876	137	31866	39844	7978
38	35742	35809	67			
39						
40	35784	35789	5	32302	39428	7126
41	35784	35787	3	32285	39398	7113
42				32732	39025	6293
43				32732	38987	6255
44						
45				32976	38782	5806
46						
47				33440	38444	5004
48				33458	38289	4831
49				33759	38125	4366
50				33724	38069	4345
51				33988	37798	3810
52						
53				34111	37722	3611
54				34365	37443	3078
55						
56				34423	37211	2788
57				34610	37078	2468
58				34888	36903	2015
59						
60						
61				35352	36444	1092
62				35350	36345	995
63				35496	36217	721
64				35600	36052	452
65				35739	35884	145
66				35747	35804	57
67				35786	35792	6
68						
69				35785	35789	4
70				35786	35788	2


----------



## cartrivision

ctaranto said:


> What part of this:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12 027
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-12 15:56:28
> Orbit # at Epoch	22
> Inclination		0.170
> RA of A. Node		275.002
> Eccentricity		0.1245564
> Argument of Perigee	184.208
> Revs per day		1.00275905
> Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	30 534 x 41 037 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		175.950
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Wasn't good enough until Sixto posted? :shrug:
> 
> /c


It didn't contain the actual TLE, as I clearly stated in my original response. What part of my original response didn't you understand? Additionally, since Sixto does not maintain a history of all the TLE's in the first post, it would be nice if it was otherwise posted and therefore archived in this thread in case someone would like to quickly refer back to one or more prior TLEs. But hey, if people would rather withhold useful information, don't let me spoil their "fun".


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I just noticed there's a bunch of "test channels" on 560-569 today. I don't got a special access card either. I'm guessing they're for D12?


----------



## dgsiiinc

Not D12, no. It isn't in a position to broadcast any test channels yet.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cartrivision said:


> It didn't contain the actual TLE, as I clearly stated in my original response. What part of my original response didn't you understand? Additionally, since Sixto does not maintain a history of all the TLE's in the first post, it would be nice if it was otherwise posted and therefore archived in this thread in case someone would like to quickly refer back to one or more prior TLEs. But hey, if people would rather withhold useful information, don't let me spoil their "fun".


"Withhold" implies someone is trying to hide something. Such an accusation doesn't make any sense what so ever. :shrug:

At any rate, instead of arguing semantics, lets talk about D12. 

:backtotop

Thanks to LameLefty, Sixto and others who've put so much work into this thread. I for one appreciate it. 

Coca Cola Kid mentioned test channels. Is it too early for that or are they ready for some real testing?

Mike


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I just noticed there's a bunch of "test channels" on 560-569 today. I don't got a special access card either. I'm guessing they're for D12?





MicroBeta said:


> Coca Cola Kid mentioned test channels. Is it too early for that or are they ready for some real testing?


Simple housekeeping:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2329961#post2329961​


----------



## oldfantom

Thanks for this post http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2329892#post2329892 , it is the numeric proof of being 30 days out. Good for the lay people like myself. I really haven't bothered to understand the math of orbital mechanics, but I can see about thirty days to get there from a similar spot in both of the previous satellites. This is why I look at this thread daily.


----------



## doctor j

Removed full list of TLE's after concerns about Space-Track.org terms and user agreement.

May make new account and obtain full data here:

http://www.space-track.org/perl/new_account.pl

Doctor j


----------



## ctaranto

doctor j said:


> Removed full list of TLE's after concerns about Space-Track.org terms and user agreement.
> 
> May make new account and obtain full data here:
> 
> http://www.space-track.org/perl/new_account.pl
> 
> Doctor j


cartrivision, does this appease your desire for everyone to share the "fun" of providing TLE's to the forum?

/c


----------



## Sixto

ctaranto said:


> cartrivision, does this appease your desire for everyone to share the "fun" of providing TLE's to the forum?
> 
> /c


Please let's move on from this topic.

Caution is best. No need to debate.

Thank you.


----------



## Sixto

We now have the answer to what was GRANT'ed last week.

Looks good, some conditions, will review in detail later ...

RB-2A Grant (01/08/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794327​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> We now have the answer to what was GRANT'ed last week.
> 
> Looks good, some conditions, will review in detail later ...


Thanks for keeping us up to date on ALL the progress with D12....very interesting indeed.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> We now have the answer to what was GRANT'ed last week.
> 
> Looks good, some conditions, will review in detail later ...
> 
> RB-2A Grant (01/08/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794327​


Translation for laymen: Spectrum Five can kiss Directv's butt. It seems that the biggest "condition" is that Directv must coordinate with other BSS-band payloads at 103º W which are licensed for U.S. operation. So far, there are no others besides RB-2 (which is Directv's own full BSS satellite planned for that location).


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for keeping us up to date on ALL the progress with D12....very interesting indeed.


+1
Good to know people know what they're talking about. Myself, I cannot even spell "TLE". All I know is I want more HD. This thread assures me we're getting closer. :icon_da:


----------



## smiddy

Kewl beans, now we're in business to test!


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> Translation for laymen: Spectrum Five can kiss Directv's butt. It seems that the biggest "condition" is that Directv must coordinate with other BSS-band payloads at 103º W which are licensed for U.S. operation. So far, there are no others besides RB-2 (which is Directv's own full BSS satellite planned for that location).


B E A utiful...


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . data forthcoming. 



Code:


Name			Directv-12 029
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-13 11:04:56
Orbit # at Epoch	23
Inclination		0.078
RA of A. Node		111.012
Eccentricity		0.0892536
Argument of Perigee	349.128
Revs per day		1.02382219
Period			23h 26m 29s (1406.48 min)
Semi-major axis		41 583 km
Perigee x Apogee	31 494 x 38 917 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		102.701
Propagation model	SDP4

In sum, perigee is up, apogee is down, inclination is coming down very close to zero, and it's getting closer and closer to being "parked" at 76ºW for testing.  :up:


----------



## texasmoose

Hutchinshouse said:


> +1
> Good to know people know what they're talking about. Myself, I cannot even spell "TLE". All I know is I want more HD. This thread assures me we're getting closer. :icon_da:


You're not going to be 'unhappy' when they fire up the new HD & the Travel Channel HD isn't among them are you?!?!?!


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Translation for laymen: Spectrum Five can kiss Directv's butt.


The phrase "spectrum 5" isn't even in the document :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> The phrase "spectrum 5" isn't even in the document :lol:


Well, "Spectrum Five, LLC" is mentioned, at least in a footnote noting their petition to the FCC to reconsider the LOA granted to Directv for the 102.825ºW offset slot. They wanted the FCC to deny everything until their new petition was heard. The FCC said no, "without prejudice to any action relating to the pending petition for reconsideration." What that means is, Directv can launch and operate the RB-2A BSS payload of D12, but the FCC might still change their mind if they decide Spectrum Five's petition has merit.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Translation for laymen: Spectrum Five can kiss Directv's butt. It seems that the biggest "condition" is that Directv must coordinate with other BSS-band payloads at 103º W which are licensed for U.S. operation. So far, there are no others besides RB-2 (which is Directv's own full BSS satellite planned for that location).


The other big news is DIRECTV cannot consider this as satisfying any of the milestones setup for RB-2. So DIRECTV must still order, build, and launch the satellite at 103° within 5 years. (Along with the others, of course.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

texasmoose said:


> Hutchinshouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> Good to know people know what they're talking about. Myself, I cannot even spell "TLE". All I know is I want more HD. This thread assures me we're getting closer. :icon_da:
> 
> 
> 
> You're not going to be 'unhappy' when they fire up the new HD & the Travel Channel HD isn't among them are you?!?!?!
Click to expand...

While Travel Channel HD is not on my list, I fully appreciate everyone's want and desire for their channels.

And I cannot imagine the 99% of the people being happy without that including Hutchinshouse soon after D12 is lit up. Might even be in the first group (tho I do not know anything about what channels are going up when.) I hope for his happiness as well as my own. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bobnielsen

tuff bob said:


> The phrase "spectrum 5" isn't even in the document :lol:


Spectrum 5 is mentioned in footnote 1, as is Ciel.


----------



## Button Pusher

Tom Robertson said:


> While Travel Channel HD is not on my list, I fully appreciate everyone's want and desire for their channels.
> 
> And I cannot imagine the 99% of the people being happy without that including Hutchinshouse soon after D12 is lit up. Might even be in the first group (tho I do not know anything about what channels are going up when.) I hope for his happiness as well as my own.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


:lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> While Travel Channel HD is not on my list, I fully appreciate everyone's want and desire for their channels.
> 
> And I cannot imagine the 99% of the people being happy without that including Hutchinshouse soon after D12 is lit up. Might even be in the first group (tho I do not know anything about what channels are going up when.) I hope for his happiness as well as my own.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You are absolutely correct on all counts.

But I do have to tell you that your "temp" avatar is making me nauseous.


----------



## Sixto

Same as prior (#28) ...


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-13-2010 11:04:56
Orbit # at Epoch	23
Inclination		0.078
RA of A. Node		111.012
Eccentricity		0.0892536
Argument of Perigee	349.128
Revs per day		1.02382219
Period			23h 26m 29s (1406.48 min)
Semi-major axis		41 583 km
Perigee x Apogee	31 494 x 38 917 km
Element number / age	29 / 0 day(s)

Lon			66.4524° W
Lat			0.0753° N
Alt (km)		36 329.050

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
029 01-13-2010 11:04:56 31,494 x 38,917 +11.08H @15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°[/COLOR][/B]
028 01-13-2010 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31,495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,915[/COLOR][/B] + 8.06H @14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.07°[/COLOR][/B]
027 01-12-2010 15:56:28 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +46.88H @14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°
026 01-10-2010 17:03:24 [B][COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +44.81H @12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/B]
025 01-08-2010 20:14:33 [B][COLOR="Red"]27,381[/COLOR][/B] x 41,036 + 3.37H @10.83D 130.20°W  0.08°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.75°[/COLOR][/B]

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...
> But I do have to tell you that your "temp" avatar is making me nauseous.


Yes indeed... I may have to turn off displaying everyone's avatar in my UserCP. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes indeed... I may have to turn off displaying everyone's avatar in my UserCP.


I feel your pain...

But at least we're getting good news about D12!


----------



## Indiana627

Has anyone "heard" from Directv-12 lately on this site? I know his brothers Directv-10 and Directv-11 checked in from time to time. Directv-12 please drop us a note to let us know how you are doing.

http://www.dbstalk.com/member.php?u=65560


----------



## DodgerKing

Comparison of Orbital locations of D10, D11, and D12 by day.

Thanks Sixto, for the data :biggthump


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest D12 Graph


----------



## LameLefty

Nice visual representations of the data, DodgerKing. Thanks! :up:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Nice visual representations of the data, DodgerKing. Thanks! :up:


Agree....nice work there sir....even I can understand it, which is quite an accomplishment. :lol:

It sure illustrates how much more "direct" (no pun intended) D12 is approaching its first resting/testing spot, as compared with its previous D11 brother.


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agree....nice work there sir....even I can understand it, which is quite an accomplishment. :lol:
> 
> It sure illustrates how much more "direct" (no pun intended) D12 is approaching its first resting/testing spot, as compared with its previous D11 brother.


Yeah;

I would say that D10 actually used the most "direct" (but less energy efficient I suppose) route to GSO of the three D-type birds illustrated here. Whereas D11 and D12 both appear to use about the same more or less "indirect" or circuitous path of going first to a high apogee (>41000 km) super-synchronous orbit before significantly raising perigee up to a certain point before converging both apogee and perigee toward GSO at 38,786 km.

However D12 is accomplishing its perigee raising and a-p convergence much faster it seems.


----------



## DodgerKing

There was a lot more riding on D10. D10 was there first real HD bird that finally gave them an actual HD lineup (more than the 5 they already had). It was a race to get it up an functioning


----------



## oldfantom

DodgerKing said:


> There was a lot more riding on D10. D10 was there first real HD bird that finally gave them an actual HD lineup (more than the 5 they already had). It was a race to get it up an functioning


i was just thinking the same thing. I also think there is more riding on 12 than 11. D* has temporarily fallen behind.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

True. This will put Dish, Directv and Fios in pretty good sorts.

Dish does have more capacity, BUT, they are compressing more. The Directv channels I looked at last night after the install, look better on my 55". On my 32", both Dish and Directv look stellar.


----------



## Button Pusher

Indiana627 said:


> Has anyone "heard" from Directv-12 lately on this site? I know his brothers Directv-10 and Directv-11 checked in from time to time. Directv-12 please drop us a note to let us know how you are doing.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/member.php?u=65560


Inquiring minds would like to know! Please talk to us! lol


----------



## Smthkd

He probably got laid off by Directv!  The mascot for D12 was not necessary nor affordable anymore!


----------



## smiddy

Yes, we have convergence of apogee and perogee.  But never, I repeat, never cross the streams!


----------



## kevinwmsn

Maybe D12 will be "talking to us" in about a month at its testing location.


----------



## MrDad0330

Do you feel with D12 so close to zero inclination that they will soon, or maybe have deployed the solar panels. That is when I will start to relax....


----------



## Sixto

The battle continues ... 

More from Spectrum Five:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794662​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> The battle continues ...
> 
> More from Spectrum Five:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794662​


This gets almost entertaining after a while.....talk about legal positioning....geeeez...


----------



## tuff bob

just to get things clear, is it the case that spectrum 5 really has no hope of every launching a satellite and is probably causing this grief in the hopes of getting paid off by DirecTV to go away? (the outer space version of cyber squatting effectively?)


----------



## MycroftHolmes

Call it astrosqatting.


----------



## Sixto

And now Ciel! :http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=794668​


----------



## freerein100

Did I read that right that Spectrum's application was granted after Directv and Directv has authorization for RB-2 and Spectrum's is secondary


----------



## bobnielsen

freerein100 said:


> Did I read that right that Spectrum's application was granted after Directv and Directv has authorization for RB-2 and Spectrum's is secondary


IANAL, but I think they are trying to make a point that theirs is ahead of RB-2A, even though it is behind RB-2.


----------



## wmb

DirectV was first with the application, an Spectum Five second. Disagreement on interpretation of the words "clear sky" and FCC asked for recalculation, which Spectrum Five says should pull DirecTV application from the first slot. FCC made a decision this summer (linked somewhere earlier in this thread) that said that DTV's application was still first (the disagreement was not significant enough to pull the application).

Here is an initial report, very negative about DTV...

http://www.cedmagazine.com/Article-Capital-Currents-030109.aspx


----------



## Christopher Gould

elwaylite said:


> True. This will put Dish, Directv and Fios in pretty good sorts.
> 
> Dish does have more capacity, BUT, they are compressing more. The Directv channels I looked at last night after the install, look better on my 55". On my 32", both Dish and Directv look stellar.


i dont believe E has more capacity. E's east or west arc cant match 99/101/103 110 119. ka has atleast twice as much capacity as a 32 transponder ku slot. so if we go with that. D* would have about 5 1/2 slots and E* about 3 slots.


----------



## monetnj

Red Dwarf quote?



smiddy said:


> Yes, we have convergence of apogee and perogee.  But never, I repeat, never cross the streams!


----------



## LameLefty

monetnj said:


> Red Dwarf quote?


Ghostbusters. Jeez, people! Come ON!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Ghostbusters. Jeez, people! Come ON!


Even a caveman can......oh never mind. 

But seriously....from all the information to date...the D12 path to the finish line is moving along very well so far.


----------



## ATARI

Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.


----------



## Sixto

The DirecTV-12 RB-2A grant as it will appear tomorrow in the Friday release:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=794490​


----------



## monetnj

Ah, right, sorry. They have a similar quote in Red Dwarf. Would have put it together with your Avatar, but I posted via my iPhone and only saw the text.



LameLefty said:


> Ghostbusters. Jeez, people! Come ON!


----------



## DodgerKing

Is she already parked? We haven't had a reading in a couple of days.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Is she already parked? We haven't had a reading in a couple of days.


probably will be slow and steady .... been 2 days 4 hours ... tick, tock ...


----------



## Sixto

This is a another significant move up of 1157km.



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-15-2010 16:43:41
Orbit # at Epoch	25
Inclination		0.177
RA of A. Node		268.559
Eccentricity		0.0742031
Argument of Perigee	192.239
Revs per day		1.00297836
Period			23h 55m 43s (1435.72 min)
Semi-major axis		42 157 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 651 x 38 908 km
Element number / age	30 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9700° W
Lat			0.0417° N
Alt (km)		38 876.640

[B][U] # [/u] [u]   Date   [/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day [/u]  [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target (for testing) is 35,786 x 35,786                  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
030 01-15-2010 16:43:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B] +53.65H @17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°[/COLOR][/B]
029 01-13-2010 11:04:56 31,494 x 38,917 +11.08H @15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°
028 01-13-2010 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31,495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,915[/COLOR][/B] + 8.06H @14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.07°[/COLOR][/B]
027 01-12-2010 15:56:28 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +46.88H @14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°
026 01-10-2010 17:03:24 [B][COLOR="Red"]29,492[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 +44.81H @12.70D  88.75°W  0.02°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.11°[/COLOR][/B]

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Per this last update, we're now where D11 was at day#43 of 70.

Moving along very well.


Code:


[B]
	D10	D10	D10	D11	D11	D11	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U][/B]
1	414	35813	35399	268	36474	36206	5087	35793	30706
2	4919	35792	30873				5089	35740	30651
3	4921	36526	31605				5097	38352	33255
4	4923	37127	32204				5093	38354	33261
5				463	38996	38533			
6	8277	37105	28828						
7	17992	37082	19090	468	40744	40276	11698	41011	29313
8	17994	37083	19089	7392	40992	33600	20536	41078	20542
9				7386	40989	33603			
10	31290	37120	5830	7387	40988	33601	20336	41007	20671
11	34206	37119	2913				27381	41036	13655
12	34100	37245	3145	17362	41069	23707			
13	34099	37129	3030	17361	41067	23706	29492	41037	11545
14	34088	37109	3021						
15	34085	37109	3024				31494	38917	7423
16	34088	37104	3016	29624	41227	11603			
17	34123	37099	2976	29621	41228	11607			
18	34179	37102	2923	29621	41228	11607	32651	38908	6257
19	34239	37050	2811	29622	41228	11606			
20				29622	41228	11606			
21	34449	37082	2633	29723	41211	11488			
22				29864	41198	11334			
23				29861	41195	11334			
24	34759	36906	2147	30007	41174	11167			
25				30244	41142	10898			
26	35111	36572	1461	30245	41133	10888			
27				30507	41115	10608			
28				30531	41110	10579			
29	34923	36787	1864	30615	41065	10450			
30									
31	35603	36177	574	30883	40871	9988
32	35644	36057	413	31115	40623	9508
33	35630	36051	421	31309	40411	9102
34	35663	35964	301	31369	40366	8997
35	35740	35919	179			
36	35737	35864	127	31742	39996	8254
37	35739	35876	137	31866	39844	7978
38	35742	35809	67			
39						
40	35784	35789	5	32302	39428	7126
41	35784	35787	3	32285	39398	7113
42				32732	39025	6293
43				32732	38987	6255
44						
45				32976	38782	5806
46						
47				33440	38444	5004
48				33458	38289	4831
49				33759	38125	4366
50				33724	38069	4345
51				33988	37798	3810
52						
53				34111	37722	3611
54				34365	37443	3078
55						
56				34423	37211	2788
57				34610	37078	2468
58				34888	36903	2015
59						
60						
61				35352	36444	1092
62				35350	36345	995
63				35496	36217	721
64				35600	36052	452
65				35739	35884	145
66				35747	35804	57
67				35786	35792	6
68						
69				35785	35789	4
70				35786	35788	2


----------



## Tom_S

At this rate it will be up there significantly faster than we predicted. I wonder if all the fighting over RB-2A is a reason. Try to beat the appeals and get this thing in operation.


----------



## richall01

On a H23-600 under the Signal Strengh Meter how will it show up? Is it 103 (s)?


----------



## davemayo

Is it odd that the inclination increased?


----------



## Sixto

davemayo said:


> Is it odd that the inclination increased?


no biggie. it will fluctuate slightly (from past experience). little decimal places.


----------



## LameLefty

davemayo said:


> Is it odd that the inclination increased?


Nah, not really. Inclination is usually the last thing to get really carefully fine-tuned after the satellite is parked. A fraction of a degree 30 days before testing is supposed to begin isn't anything unusual. Now, if one of the operational satellites suddenly went from an inclination of 0.019º (D10 right now) or 0.036º (D11 currently) to something like 0.18º, _that_ would be unusual.

I frankly don't expect the inclination to be shrunk down that small until a week or two after the final move to the 103º offset slot but I could be wrong.


----------



## Sixto

D12 is really in a cool state right now. Middle is again almost exactly 35,786 (it's 35,780), and it was right at 76° for this TLE. 

Will continue to fluctuate.

Going very well, as the bottom and top converge to 35,786km.


----------



## smiddy

Yes, we're getting closer, oh baby!


----------



## P Smith

davemayo said:


> Is it odd that the inclination increased?


Counting how tight that maneuvers controlled/executed it should have a reason.
Perhaps to avoid a collision.


----------



## Sixto

have added the D10/D11/D12 comparison to post#1 so-as to not keep posting it in the thread. will keep it current.


----------



## evan_s

richall01 said:


> On a H23-600 under the Signal Strengh Meter how will it show up? Is it 103 (s)?


Hard to say. It looks like the spots will be taking the place of the spots for D10 which would show up under 103s but this change should be transparent to users. The big thing that will be obvious to customers is the addition of a bunch of new Conus transponders which could show up on the 103c page, eg 17-32 not being NA anymore, or could show up on another screen. We won't know for sure until the signal strength screens change.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

So anyone know if the solar panels are out yet?

Thanks


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So anyone know if the solar panels are out yet?
> 
> Thanks


Thinking yes but depends on interpretation of xylo's post: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20722&d=1262155364


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> have added the D10/D11/D12 comparison to post#1 so-as to not keep posting it in the thread. will keep it current.


Looking at those comparisons, it's interesting to compare D10 to D11 from this 6257 gap we are at with TLE #30

It took 31 days (days 10-41) for D10 to get to it's final parking spot.
It took 27 days (days 43-70) for D11 to get to it's final parking spot.

So with this generalization we could say it's still 30 days out for D12 to find it's parking spot.

Or......not.


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> Looking at those comparisons, it's interesting to compare D10 to D11 from this 6257 gap we are at with TLE #30
> 
> It took 31 days (days 10-41) for D10 to get to it's final parking spot.
> It took 27 days (days 43-70) for D11 to get to it's final parking spot.
> 
> So with this generalization we could say it's still 30 days out for D12 to find it's parking spot.
> 
> Or......not.


yep, in sync with the 2/15 date in the FCC filing.


----------



## P Smith

TheRatPatrol said:


> So anyone know if the solar panels are out yet?
> 
> Thanks


If you have good telescope, you could tell us .


----------



## longrider

P Smith said:


> If you have good telescope, you could tell us .


Out of curiosity, how much of a telescope would that take? Anything you could reasonably expect an amateur to have?


----------



## DodgerKing

With latest TLE


----------



## LameLefty

longrider said:


> Out of curiosity, how much of a telescope would that take? Anything you could reasonably expect an amateur to have?


No. :nono:


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> With latest TLE ...


Beautiful graphs.


----------



## mobandit

longrider said:


> Out of curiosity, how much of a telescope would that take? Anything you could reasonably expect an amateur to have?


Not likely...at over 35,000 KM....it would have to be quite the telescope....


----------



## davemayo

LameLefty said:


> Nah, not really. Inclination is usually the last thing to get really carefully fine-tuned after the satellite is parked. A fraction of a degree 30 days before testing is supposed to begin isn't anything unusual. Now, if one of the operational satellites suddenly went from an inclination of 0.019º (D10 right now) or 0.036º (D11 currently) to something like 0.18º, _that_ would be unusual.
> 
> I frankly don't expect the inclination to be shrunk down that small until a week or two after the final move to the 103º offset slot but I could be wrong.


Thanks!


----------



## bb37

longrider said:


> Out of curiosity, how much of a telescope would that take? Anything you could reasonably expect an amateur to have?





LameLefty said:


> No. :nono:


Herb, my recollection is that the International Space Station and the Space Shuttle are occasionally visible even with the nek-ked eye. Am I assuming correctly that they are a: larger than a Boeing comm satellite and b: in orbits nearer to the Earth than a geo-synch comm satellite?


----------



## mobandit

bb37 said:


> Herb, my recollection is that the International Space Station and the Space Shuttle are occasionally visible even with the nek-ked eye. Am I assuming correctly that they are a: larger than a Boeing comm satellite and b: in orbits nearer to the Earth than a geo-synch comm satellite?


Yes, and yes....orbit for ISS is only about 180-190 miles...as far as being visible to the naked eye...yes if you count seeing a pinpoint of light moving across the sky...


----------



## LameLefty

bb37 said:


> Herb, my recollection is that the International Space Station and the Space Shuttle are occasionally visible even with the nek-ked eye. Am I assuming correctly that they are a: larger than a Boeing comm satellite and b: in orbits nearer to the Earth than a geo-synch comm satellite?


Yeah, the ISS is at a nominal 350km altitude, and is about 108 meters wide. GSO is 35,786km altitude and D10/11/12 are only 48 meters wide. So these satellites (among the biggest of their kind) are still less than half as wide as the ISS and over ten times further away.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this morning . . . analysis coming.



Code:


Name			Directv-12 031
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-16 03:45:22
Orbit # at Epoch	26
Inclination		0.177
RA of A. Node		269.166
Eccentricity		0.0742042
Argument of Perigee	191.642
Revs per day		1.00296485
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 651 x 38 908 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		356.483
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	31 / 0 day(s)

No real change from the last elset.


----------



## tcusta00

DodgerKing said:


> With latest TLE





Sixto said:


> Beautiful graphs.


No joke, this is some cool stuff you guys put together. Not bad for a buncha forum flies.


----------



## Sixto

As Lefty mentioned, #31 similar to #30 ...

Did tweak the format last night, now have "gap" comparison data included:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-16-2010 03:45:22
Orbit # at Epoch	26
Inclination		0.177
RA of A. Node		269.166
Eccentricity		0.0742042
Argument of Perigee	191.642
Revs per day		1.00296485
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 651 x 38 908 km
Element number / age	31 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.1054° W
Lat			0.0047° S
Alt (km)		32 643.570

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
031 01/16 03:45:22 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H 18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°[/COLOR][/B]
030 01/15 16:43:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B]  6,257 +53.65H 17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°
029 01/13 11:04:56 31,494 x 38,917  7,423 +11.08H 15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°
028 01/13 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31,495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,915[/COLOR][/B]  7,420 + 8.06H 14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.07°[/COLOR][/B]
027 01/12 15:56:28 [B][COLOR="Red"]30,534[/COLOR][/B] x 41,037 10,503 +46.88H 14.65D  75.09°W  0.02°S  0.17°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> With latest TLE ...


Have added to post#1 ... with reference to your great work ... thanks again.


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, the ISS is at a nominal 350km altitude, and is about 108 meters wide. GSO is 35,786km altitude and D10/11/12 are only 48 meters wide. So these satellites (among the biggest of their kind) are still less than half as wide as the ISS and over ten times further away.


So if D12 is about 1/7 the size and 10 times farther away, you should need a telescope that has at least 70x power, yes? Mind you, I know as much about telescopes as I do satellites, but I think my logic is correct. Any astronomers out there?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tcusta00 said:


> No joke, this is some cool stuff you guys put together.


Yes....very nice work gentlemen.


bb37 said:


> Herb, my recollection is that the International Space Station and the Space Shuttle are occasionally visible even with the nek-ked eye. Am I assuming correctly that they are a: larger than a Boeing comm satellite and b: in orbits nearer to the Earth than a geo-synch comm satellite?





raoul5788 said:


> So if D12 is about 1/7 the size and 10 times farther away, you should need a telescope that has at least 70x power, yes? Mind you, I know as much about telescopes as I do satellites, but I think my logic is correct. Any astronomers out there?


I have a 35X telescope here, but I think I'll wait for it to come out on Blu Ray instead.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

raoul5788 said:


> So if D12 is about 1/7 the size and 10 times farther away, you should need a telescope that has at least 70x power, yes? Mind you, I know as much about telescopes as I do satellites, but I think my logic is correct. Any astronomers out there?


 Geostationary satellites usually have a magnitude of ≥+10 making them hard to see. Depending on when you try to observe them (so you get the max reflection of light from the sun) it can be as much as +3 or +4 making them much easier to see.

A decent telescope with and aperture of at least 6" you should be big enough. The samller telescopes won't be able to resolve small enough objects (viewable angle in arc seconds) to see the geostationary satellites....e.g. not even the Hubble can see the Lunar Lander or other Apollo mission equipment on the moon.

Most of these telescopes will come with software that will take the TLE and tell you where to aim your telescope to see D12. 

Mike


----------



## mobandit

MicroBeta said:


> Geostationary satellites usually have a magnitude of ≥+10 making them hard to see. Depending on when you try to observe them (so you get the max reflection of light from the sun) it can be as much as +3 or +4 making them much easier to see.
> 
> A decent telescope with and aperture of at least 6" you should be big enough. The samller telescopes won't be able to resolve small enough objects (viewable angle in arc seconds) to see the geostationary satellites....e.g. not even the Hubble can see the Lunar Lander or other Apollo mission equipment on the moon.
> 
> Most of these telescopes will come with software that will take the TLE and tell you where to aim your telescope to see D12.
> 
> Mike


Even if you do manage to "see" a GSO bird, I hope you aren't expecting a real great image...too much distortion through the earth's atmosphere and too small an object at too great a distance to get much more than a point of light or, at best, some kind of blob in the sky.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

mobandit said:


> Even if you do manage to "see" a GSO bird, I hope you aren't expecting a real great image...too much distortion through the earth's atmosphere and too small an object at too great a distance to get much more than a point of light or, at best, some kind of blob in the sky.


That's true. You'll be able to see the geostationary sats with an 6" or 8" but you may not be able to identify more then a basic outline. They're pretty good for seeing the ISS though as long as you have auto tracking mount. Unless you have a very large telescope (read expensive) all you're gonna see is a blob.

I have seen some decent pictures of geostationary sats with a 10". You could tell what it is and see the individual components. I couldn't see too many details though.

A moving target such as D12 would be particularly hard but it can be seen. 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

Funny.

Guess we now have our next expertise request ...

Someone with access to a VERY expensive telescope! (that can capture an image)

Might be possible ... we've been able to dig up every other resource we need.

Hopefully a photo is the next addition to post#1.


----------



## usnret

Anybody got comms with Hubble??


----------



## LameLefty

I have a 10" but it's a Dobsonian - not much chance of resolving a moving target that small. Jupiter and Saturn look great with it though.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> Beautiful graphs.


Thanks...

Wouldn't be possible (or at least it would have been much more work on my part) if you didn't provide the data. Thank you.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Wouldn't be possible (or at least it would have been much more work on my part) if you didn't provide the data. Thank you.


Teamwork!


----------



## Villager

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, the ISS is at a nominal 350km altitude, and is about 108 meters wide. GSO is 35,786km altitude and D10/11/12 are only 48 meters wide. So these satellites (among the biggest of their kind) are still less than half as wide as the ISS and over ten times further away.


I hate to quibble, but it seems to me that comparing 35,000 km and 350 km is a factor of 100 rather than a factor of 10.


----------



## Jeremy W

Villager said:


> I hate to quibble, but it seems to me that comparing 35,000 km and 350 km is a factor of 100 rather than a factor of 10.


He said *over* 10 times, and 100 is over 10.


----------



## ATARI

Villager said:


> I hate to quibble, but it seems to me that comparing 35,000 km and 350 km is a factor of 100 rather than a factor of 10.


I was just going to post that.

You are correct.


----------



## dennisj00

While minor at 35K Kilometers away, the 48 Meters width wouldn't necessarily be presented to us so it's more of a dot. . .


----------



## Ernie

dennisj00 said:


> While minor at 35K Kilometers away, the 48 Meters width wouldn't necessarily be presented to us so it's more of a dot. . .


By my calculations, if it's solar panels was oriented so that you got a flat on view (which is not going to be the case most of the time, since they need to be oriented toward the sun), the 48m panels at 35.7Km subtends .005 arc-seconds. If there were bright lights one the ends of the solar panels, you would need a 22meter (850 in) telescope to resolve the lights into separate points of light. By comparison, an 8 in telescope can resolve .5 arc-seconds.

Since the largest telescope in the world is the 10.4 meter Gran Telescopio CANARIAS, I think we are out of luck on imaging GSO satellites.

As far as detecting it as a dot of light in the sky, a smaller telescope would do. Since I don't have any info on how much light is reflected by this satellites, I don't have a good handle on the minimum size for just seeing a dot of light. Most GSO satellites seem to be in the 11 to 14 magnitude range (larger numbers are dimmer), and the limiting magnitude of an 8 incher is about 13. Interestingly, the best viewing is right before and after occultation at the equinoxes when the solar panels are pointed almost directly at an observer on earth.

So it looks like with a good star chart and a good idea of the position, an 8 inch telescope can at least see them.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> By my calculations, if it's solar panels was oriented so that you got a flat on view (which is not going to be the case most of the time, since they need to be oriented toward the sun), the 48m panels at 35.7Km subtends .005 arc-seconds. If there were bright lights one the ends of the solar panels, you would need a 22meter (850 in) telescope to resolve the lights into separate points of light. By comparison, an 8 in telescope can resolve .5 arc-seconds.
> 
> Since the largest telescope in the world is the 10.4 meter Gran Telescopio CANARIAS, I think we are out of luck on imaging GSO satellites.
> 
> As far as detecting it as a dot of light in the sky, a smaller telescope would do. Since I don't have any info on how much light is reflected by this satellites, I don't have a good handle on the minimum size for just seeing a dot of light. Most GSO satellites seem to be in the 11 to 14 magnitude range (larger numbers are dimmer), and the limiting magnitude of an 8 incher is about 13. Interestingly, the best viewing is right before and after occultation at the equinoxes when the solar panels are pointed almost directly at an observer on earth.
> 
> So it looks like with a good star chart and a good idea of the position, an 8 inch telescope can at least see them.
> 
> Ernie


Thanks for doing the math on that. I was pretty sure they were WAY beyond the power of a telescope to resolve but didn't want to break out the calculator.


----------



## bobnielsen

The Large Binocular Telescope on Mt. Graham in Arizona would probably be the best bet (2 8.4 meter mirrors with a resolving power equivalent to a 22.8 meter telescope).


----------



## raoul5788

Villager said:


> I hate to quibble, but it seems to me that comparing 35,000 km and 350 km is a factor of 100 rather than a factor of 10.


Hmm, I guess a telescope would have to have a 700x power then, not 70x.


----------



## LameLefty

raoul5788 said:


> Hmm, I guess a telescope would have to have a 700x power then, not 70x.


It's not a matter of magnification but resolution.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> It's not a matter of magnification but resolution.


And, for terrestrial telescopes, once you get above 5" there is a marginal, if any, increase in resolution. It does increase its light gathering more than resolution.

Most of the identifiable pictures I've seen were of orbiting sats and not the geostationary ones. I haven't been following D12 much so I don't know where it is but if we can see it before it gets to the Clark Belt we might be able to get a picture of it that's recognizable.

Mike


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> It's not a matter of magnification but resolution.


See, I told you I didn't know anything about telescopes! Now, if you need to know anything about Studebakers, I might be able to help you.


----------



## P Smith

I have printed from Internet a picture with many GSO sats over NA;there are just bright spots. I recall an exposure was pretty long.


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> I haven't been following D12 much so I don't know where it is but if we can see it before it gets to the Clark Belt we might be able to get a picture of it that's recognizable.


It's already too far away.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

raoul5788 said:


> See, I told you I didn't know anything about telescopes! Now, if you need to know anything about Studebakers, I might be able to help you.


I bet you know more about telescopes then I do about Studebakers...other then I think they're pretty cool looking I know zero beyond that. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> It's already too far away.


Then we're not getting a picture. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## longrider

Since everybody wants a pic...


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> I have a 10" but it's a Dobsonian - not much chance of resolving a moving target that small. Jupiter and Saturn look great with it though.


I'm sure it does. I saw Shoemaker-Levy 9 impact through a Dobsonian, at an observatory in central Ohio. Heard Dobson speak there once as well, interesting guy.


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> I'm sure it does. I saw Shoemaker-Levy 9 impact through a Dobsonian, at an observatory in central Ohio. Heard Dobson speak there once as well, interesting guy.


By all accounts, Dobson is a fascinating fellow. His idea that an inexpensive large mirror, thinner than that necessary for an any-attitude polar mount but high-quality enough for visual observations was truly revolutionary. A 10" is really nice - large enough to resolve a good bit of M82 and even some of the brightest clusters in the Andromeda Galaxy, enough to split some nice binaries, but small enough to lug around in an SUV without much effort. And again, Saturn's rings and the Galilean moons of Jupiter look fantastic.


----------



## raoul5788

MicroBeta said:


> I bet you know more about telescopes then I do about Studebakers...other then I think they're pretty cool looking I know zero beyond that.
> 
> Mike


About all I know is that you look in one end, and with the good ones, you aren't looking in the same direction it's pointing in. That's about all I know about telescopes!


----------



## bb37

raoul5788 said:


> About all I know is that you look in one end, and with the good ones, you aren't looking in the same direction it's pointing in.


Same could be said for some Studebakers, couldn't it? (Thinking of a 1950 Starlight Coupe.)


----------



## smiddy

Looking good or NOM-MEE-NULL! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this morning . . . analysis in work. 



Code:


Name			Directv-12 032
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-16 15:51:24
Orbit # at Epoch	26
Inclination		0.176
RA of A. Node		269.309
Eccentricity		0.0741924
Argument of Perigee	191.511
Revs per day		1.00296858
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 652 x 38 907 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		178.526
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	32 / 0 day(s)

Very small tweaks again.


----------



## DodgerKing

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning . . . analysis in work.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			Directv-12 032
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-16 15:51:24
> Orbit # at Epoch	26
> Inclination		0.176
> RA of A. Node		269.309
> Eccentricity		0.0741924
> Argument of Perigee	191.511
> Revs per day		1.00296858
> Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 158 km
> Perigee x Apogee	32 652 x 38 907 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		178.526
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	32 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Very small tweaks again.


Updated my spreadsheet and graphs, but I will wait until the tweaks become more pronounced before I post a new graph. Right now the increments are so small that the graphs still look the same.


----------



## Sixto

Yep, same. Behind 25 hours.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-16-2010 15:51:24
Orbit # at Epoch	26
Inclination		0.176
RA of A. Node		269.309
Eccentricity		0.0741924
Argument of Perigee	191.511
Revs per day		1.00296858
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 652 x 38 907 km
Element number / age	32 / 1 day(s)

Lon			74.2433° W
Lat			0.0131° N
Alt (km)		38 919.950

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
032 01/16 15:51:24 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H 18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°[/COLOR][/B]
031 01/16 03:45:22 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H 18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°
030 01/15 16:43:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B]  6,257 +53.65H 17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°
029 01/13 11:04:56 31,494 x 38,917  7,423 +11.08H 15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°
028 01/13 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]31,495[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,915[/COLOR][/B]  7,420 + 8.06H 14.98D  89.56°W  0.07°S  [B][COLOR="Red"]0.07°[/COLOR][/B]

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## raoul5788

bb37 said:


> Same could be said for some Studebakers, couldn't it? (Thinking of a 1950 Starlight Coupe.)


Now that there is funny!:lol: And true!


----------



## syphix

*crickets.....crickets...*

Nothing lately? Really?


----------



## radiomandc

My thoughts exactly. This is usually the most active thread.


----------



## Sixto

Space travel takes time.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Space travel takes time.


For now.... 

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> *crickets.....crickets...*
> 
> Nothing lately? Really?


No new TLE today. I've been checking.


----------



## Sixto

After 43 hours ... very slight change.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-18-2010 10:58:07
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.178
RA of A. Node		269.528
Eccentricity		0.0739643
Argument of Perigee	191.210
Revs per day		1.00282131
Period			23h 55m 56s (1435.93 min)
Semi-major axis		42 162 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 665 x 38 902 km
Element number / age	33 / 0 day(s)

Lon			66.5601° W
Lat			0.1339° S
Alt (km)		36 899.010

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
033 01/18 10:58:07 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H 20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°[/COLOR][/B]
032 01/16 15:51:24 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H 18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°
031 01/16 03:45:22 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H 18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°
030 01/15 16:43:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B]  6,257 +53.65H 17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°
029 01/13 11:04:56 31,494 x 38,917  7,423 +11.08H 15.45D  66.45°W  0.07°N  0.08°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## HoTat2

It would be great, for us here anyhow, if Boeing and DirecTV were like NASA or something with regular press briefings about what's the latest with D12 and the other birds in the fleet. But I guess there just isn't enough interest in the progress of a commercial telecommunications satellite to require it.

I mean unless something catastrophic happens, it's not like there's are a core of news correspondents always milling around the headquarters of Boeing or DirecTV scrounging for information and thereby forcing these companies to conduct regularly scheduled press conferences. 

Therefore at this point we're pretty much limited to TLE releases, any new FCC documentation, and LameLefty, Sixto and other knowledgeable folks offering their expert commentary based on their past experiences.

Still good and much appreciated mind you, but admittedly limited in what these sources alone can offer.


----------



## Jeremy W

HoTat2 said:


> But I guess there just isn't enough interest in the progress of a commercial telecommunications satellite to require it.


There's also the fact that DirecTV and Boeing aren't government agencies, but public companies. As public companies they only have to tell us if something goes wrong that will impact their ability to deliver TV service. And that's all they're going to tell us.


----------



## taz291819

Jeremy W said:


> There's also the fact that DirecTV and Boeing aren't government agencies, but public companies. As public companies they only have to tell us if something goes wrong that will impact their ability to deliver TV service. And that's all they're going to tell us.


And if anything goes wrong, I'm sure it'll be leaked to the media anyway.


----------



## Hdhead

syphix said:


> Nothing lately? Really?


D12 is just taking a little snooze before he spreads his wings. :engel10:


----------



## P Smith

So, the small correction of its orbit going under slight inclination; what would be distance from equatorial plane if the incl eq 0.18° ? L = 35,786 x tg(0.18°) = 112 km. Enough for avoid collisions, heh.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this morning. Analysis forthcoming.



Code:


Name			Directv-12 034
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-18 10:58:07
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.268
RA of A. Node		272.913
Eccentricity		0.0726487
Argument of Perigee	187.600
Revs per day		1.00256721
Period			23h 56m 18s (1436.30 min)
Semi-major axis		42 169 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 727 x 38 854 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		107.061
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	34 / 1 day(s)

EDIT: From the epoch date, looks to be a revision of yesterday's data (probably based on further observations or correction of an error in the previous data).


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Analysis forthcoming.


See?? All it took was my asking!


----------



## ddobson

LameLefty said:


> By all accounts, Dobson is a fascinating fellow. )


Thank You, but not really...

LOL


----------



## Sixto

Yes, looks better! Picked up 110km. Now a day old.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-18-2010 10:58:07
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.268
RA of A. Node		272.913
Eccentricity		0.0726487
Argument of Perigee	187.600
Revs per day		1.00256721
Period			23h 56m 18s (1436.30 min)
Semi-major axis		42 169 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 727 x 38 854 km
Element number / age	34 / 1 day(s)

Lon			66.9236° W
Lat			0.2163° S
Alt (km)		36 882.890

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
034 01/18 10:58:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H 20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°[/COLOR][/B]
033 01/18 10:58:07 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H 20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°
032 01/16 15:51:24 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H 18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°
031 01/16 03:45:22 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H 18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°
030 01/15 16:43:41 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,651[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,908[/COLOR][/B]  6,257 +53.65H 17.68D  75.97°W  0.04°N  0.18°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Inclination raised ... complicated maneuvers.


----------



## cartrivision

taz291819 said:


> And if anything goes wrong, I'm sure it'll be leaked to the media anyway.


It probably wouldn't come from a leak. As Jeremy W alluded to, a problem with D12 would likely be considered a "material event" which SEC regulations would require to be publicly disclosed.


----------



## DodgerKing

With little change in elevation, the graph still looks very linear since the last time I updated them. Here they are anyway.


----------



## Sixto

Another challenge 

They certainly are persistent!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795265​


----------



## Mark Holtz

Whotheheckis Spectrum Five LLC?


----------



## dpeters11

Mark Holtz said:


> Whotheheckis Spectrum Five LLC?


I guess you could call them a competitor to Dish and DirecTV, a satellite DBS company. Though I don't think they have anything launched yet.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> Another challenge
> 
> They certainly are persistent!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795265​


It seems the FCC has said no to Spectrum Five a couple of times on this, so this brings up a couple of questions, maybe someone will know...

Is there any reason for DirectV to formally respond to this? (i would make a phone call, to gauge the need for a written response)

Can the FCC ignore this filing?

If not, is there a required timeframe for a response?

If the FCC turns this request down, or does not respond, does Spectrum Five have a judicial option (standing)?

Could Spectrum Five get some sort of injunction to stop DirectV from using the slot?

As long as Spectrum Five does not have a satellite in position to use this location, is this a moot issue - that is, could DirectV argue against an injuction or that they have not actually damamged Spectrum Five by DirectV's use of this slot as Spectrum Five does not have the capability to use it?

Other thoughts?


----------



## Smthkd

Spectrum Five is starting to act and sound like pre-school kids that are angry because they are not getting their way. What a pain in the butt!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> Another challenge
> 
> They certainly are persistent!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795265​


I can't download the dang thing. It keeps crashing IE. I've never had that problem before. :scratchin

Are they trying to block D12's slot or limit it somehow?

Mike


----------



## mobandit

MicroBeta said:


> I can't download the dang thing. It keeps crashing IE. I've never had that problem before. :scratchin
> 
> Are they trying to block D12's slot or limit it somehow?
> 
> Mike


They want the FCC to rescind the grant to RB-2A...saying that they had their petition filed first, and that D* was approved "out of order" of the first-come, first-served principle. No mention of the fact that Spectrum Five has nothing built and ready to launch/operate....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

mobandit said:


> They want the FCC to rescind the grant to RB-2A...saying that they had their petition filed first, and that D* was approved "out of order" of the first-come, first-served principle. No mention of the fact that Spectrum Five has nothing built and ready to launch/operate....


I finally got it at work.

So they want the launch authority rescinded or modified....kinda late don't ya think? 

Mike


----------



## kevinwmsn

Those guys are just going to keep on coming up with something until they get their way.


----------



## dpeters11

MicroBeta said:


> I finally got it at work.
> 
> So they want the launch authority rescinded or modified....kinda late don't ya think?
> 
> Mike


I believe it's mostly the BSS package on D12. So everything else would be OK, just not BSS.

To me, I just don't get them as a company. Honestly, who in their right mind would get into the business now, if it's to provide TV service in the US?


----------



## ntwrkd

MicroBeta said:


> I can't download the dang thing. It keeps crashing IE. I've never had that problem before. :scratchin
> 
> Are they trying to block D12's slot or limit it somehow?
> 
> Mike


Why are you still using IE? It is the least standards compliant, most vunerable and slowest of all browsers available. Do yourself a favor. Download any other browser available.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ntwrkd said:


> Why are you still using IE? It is the least standards compliant, most vunerable and slowest of all browsers available. Do yourself a favor. Download any other browser available.


Actually it didn't crash IE8, it just crashed the linked window. IE8 kept running. I've used them all I'll stick with IE8.

Ok everyone, it seems like Spectrum Five is playing semantics games but to what end?

Why would they care about what slot IOT takes place in?

I guess I don't know enough about how the actual broadcast frequencies work to glean how it affects them.

Mike


----------



## paragon

MicroBeta said:


> I've used them all I'll stick with IE8.


While I personally wouldn't use any version of IE, at least you aren't one of the people out there who still use IE6.


----------



## bobnielsen

MicroBeta said:


> Actually it didn't crash IE8, it just crashed the linked window. IE8 kept running. I've used them all I'll stick with IE8.
> 
> Ok everyone, it seems like Spectrum Five is playing semantics games but to what end?
> 
> Why would they care about what slot IOT takes place in?
> 
> I guess I don't know enough about how the actual broadcast frequencies work to glean how it affects them.
> 
> Mike


I think they feel that if the 74 deg. testing is approved, it makes it more likely that Directv's BSS operation at 103 will go ahead. RB-2 was first in line for 103 and Spectrum five is next. They have tried to make a point that because the RB-2 application had some errors, it should be rejected completely which would put them first and because RB-2A is a separate satellite, it should have a later place in line. The FCC hasn't bought that argument.


----------



## Sixto

Update #35 on the way ... 33 008 x 38 510 km ... gap down 625 ..


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-20-2010 17:08:34
Orbit # at Epoch	30
Inclination		0.201
RA of A. Node		267.082
Eccentricity		0.0652858
Argument of Perigee	194.216
Revs per day		1.00371709
Period			23h 54m 40s (1434.67 min)
Semi-major axis		42 137 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 008 x 38 510 km
Element number / age	35 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.6881° W
Lat			0.0941° N
Alt (km)		38 347.620

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
035 01/20 17:08:34 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H 22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°[/COLOR][/B]
034 01/18 10:58:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H 20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°
033 01/18 10:58:07 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H 20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°
032 01/16 15:51:24 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H 18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°
031 01/16 03:45:22 32,651 x 38,908  6,257 +11.03H 18.14D  75.10°W  0.00°S  0.18°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## DodgerKing

We can now start to see some progression










I'll do the comparison one when I get home


----------



## Sixto

What's interesting is that we learned from last time (D11) is that a good average is 5.5-6km per hour over the last 30 days until parked.

This latest update is 5.19km over the past 54 hours. This can fluctuate dramatically over a short period but was a good average over an extended time.

Current best guess is 19.29 days (2/8/10 7:08 PM) to 21.05 days (2/10/10 1:14 PM).

For past five days this date range has been fairly consistent.

2/15 certainly in line so far.


----------



## LameLefty

I _suspect_ that the very small daily changes to the orbit at this point could be associated with the deployment (or the partial deployment) of antennas and solar arrays as part of the detailed checkout process for the main systems of the spacecraft itself prior to beginning operational testing of the payloads.

Or I could be completely wrong.


----------



## RobertSeattle

Rocket P*rn!


----------



## P Smith

We got the move seen right same day.


----------



## Sixto

More on Spectrum from today:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795573​


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> More on Spectrum from today:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795573​


Translation: "STFU" :lol:


----------



## longrider

I agree on the 4 letter interpretation of those 2 pages 

I do have one question, what kind of 9.2 meter antenna cost *millions* of dollars???


----------



## P Smith

Nice animation of ... Sirius sats ( if D12 could be presented that way )


----------



## LameLefty

longrider said:


> I agree on the 4 letter interpretation of those 2 pages
> 
> I do have one question, what kind of 9.2 meter antenna cost *millions* of dollars???


The kind that looks like one of these, along with all the associated infrastructure.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Shouldn't get rain fade with those.

P Smith, I like the Sirius sat map.


----------



## P Smith

Not mine - found in Internet.


----------



## Jeremy W

kevinwmsn said:


> Shouldn't get rain fade with those.


Especially since they're sending the signals, not receiving them. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . analysis forthcoming. 



Code:


Name			Directv-12 036
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-21 13:22:44
Orbit # at Epoch	31
Inclination		0.197
RA of A. Node		265.954
Eccentricity		0.0636638
Argument of Perigee	198.114
Revs per day		1.00227081
Period			23h 56m 44s (1436.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 177 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 114 x 38 484 km


----------



## tkrandall

paragon said:


> While I personally wouldn't use any version of IE, at least you aren't one of the people out there who still use IE6.


My company's (a large fortune 500 one) IT department only officially supports IE6 still for in-company use. Seems it's a major effort to vet/updgrade the bazillion company apps everytime IE is upgraded.


----------



## tkrandall

P Smith said:


> Nice animation of ... Sirius sats ( if D12 could be presented that way )


very cool!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

tkrandall said:


> My company's (a large fortune 500 one) IT department only officially supports IE6 still for in-company use. Seems it's a major effort to vet/updgrade the bazillion company apps everytime IE is upgraded.


I'm sorry I pulled IE into this thread. :grin:

:backtotop

Mike


----------



## paragon

tkrandall said:


> My company's (a large fortune 500 one) IT department only officially supports IE6 still for in-company use. Seems it's a major effort to vet/updgrade the bazillion company apps everytime IE is upgraded.


This will be my last post on IE so as not to keep the thread going off topic.

If your company's IT department had written their apps to be standards compliant instead of IE6 compliant, they wouldn't have that problem.


----------



## Sixto

Moving along very nicely.

Orbit up 106 km. Staying in that 5-6km range at 5.24/hour (for past 20 hours).

18.56 days (2/8/10 9:42 PM) to 20.24 days (2/10/10 2:11 PM) at D11 pace.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-21-2010 13:22:44
Orbit # at Epoch	31
Inclination		0.197
RA of A. Node		265.954
Eccentricity		0.0636638
Argument of Perigee	198.114
Revs per day		1.00227081
Period			23h 56m 44s (1436.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 177 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 114 x 38 484 km
Element number / age	36 / 0 day(s)

Lon			70.4833° W
Lat			0.0535° S
Alt (km)		37 998.250


[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
036 01/21 13:22:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H 23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°[/COLOR][/B]
035 01/20 17:08:34 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H 22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°
034 01/18 10:58:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H 20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°
033 01/18 10:58:07 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H 20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°
032 01/16 15:51:24 32,652 x 38,907  6,255 +12.10H 18.65D  74.24°W  0.01°N  0.18°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

D12 RB-2A (BSS) FCC Grant today and good Spectrum Five stuff!:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795772

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795770​
Still awaiting D12 Ka FCC Grant, which should be soon.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hope to see a final end to the ridiculous bickering and positioning games played with the FCC on this.

D12 seems to be continuing on track for testing, and then final location position maneuvers.

Thanks for the updates Sixto and Lefty.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> 18.56 days (2/8/10 9:42 PM) to 20.24 days (2/10/10 2:11 PM) at D11 pace.
> [/code]


So what will happen on these days, they'll start testing?


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> D12 RB-2A (BSS) FCC Grant today and good Spectrum Five stuff!:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795772
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=795770​
> Still awaiting D12 Ka FCC Grant, which should be soon.


In other words, "Spectrum Five - STFU!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

I still don't think they're gonna win on their petition for reconsideration with regard to the full RB-2 platform but it'll be interesting to watch play out.


----------



## LameLefty

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So what will happen on these days, they'll start testing?


As required by FCC rules and the authorizations, D12 will be parked at 76ºW for testing on or about February 15. When it is in position, Directv must notify the FCC. Upon every instance of testing the RB-2A BSS payload, it must notify Echostar to ensure there is no interference with their signals (that is part of the grant from today).


----------



## RobertE

LameLefty said:


> In other words, "Spectrum Five - STFU!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I still don't think they're gonna win on their petition for reconsideration with regard to the full RB-2 platform but it'll be interesting to watch play out.


Not a Rocket Lawyer  but thats how I read it too. Pretty much go away kid, your bothering us. :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> In other words, "Spectrum Five - STFU!" :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I still don't think they're gonna win on their petition for reconsideration with regard to the full RB-2 platform but it'll be interesting to watch play out.




The letter was very good and descriptive:
1) Spectrum 5 will not be an injured party, so the FCC can ignore their "informal petition" if they want.
2) The FCC chose to comment
3) A satellite ain't as easily tested as Spectrum 5 contends (like they'd know with their huge fleet of nada!) 
4) Spectrum 5 hasn't made a case whereby preventing testing indefinitely does any good and the FCC already knows testing is not done in a normal configuration. 
5) Therefore, DIRECTV is granted. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

At some point, likely already long passed, Spectrum 5 should have backed off a bit. Fighting every minor, stupid nit does not endear with the convening authority. It tends to piss them off, nullifying all claims...


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## Sixto

Here's what will appear tomorrow for the RB-2A test GRANT:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=795778​


----------



## steveken

P Smith said:


> Nice animation of ... Sirius sats ( if D12 could be presented that way )


Sirius as in Sirius-XM? Do their sats really use that weird of an orbit? What are they doing with them, service South America satellite radio as well when it passes over there too? Wow.


----------



## litzdog911

steveken:
XM uses two geosynchronous satellites, shown on the equator (XM1, XM2). 
Sirius has three low-earth orbiting satellites, hence the "goofy" orbit pattern. But note that at least one Sirius satellite is always visible over the North America.


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> What are they doing with them, service South America satellite radio as well when it passes over there too? Wow.


Nope, when the satellites aren't over North America they're moving very fast and not broadcasting. Sirius chose this orbit because the satellites are broadcasting from directly above the US instead of the equator. This makes it harder for the signal to be blocked by buildings, and doesn't require as many terrestrial repeaters.


----------



## hyde76

Jeremy W said:


> Nope, when the satellites aren't over North America they're moving very fast and not broadcasting. Sirius chose this orbit because the satellites are broadcasting from directly above the US instead of the equator. This makes it harder for the signal to be blocked by buildings, and doesn't require as many terrestrial repeaters.


Isn't this also the reason that there are so many complaints about Sirius reception and so few complaints about XM reception?


----------



## cartrivision

hyde76 said:


> Isn't this also the reason that there are so many complaints about Sirius reception and so few complaints about XM reception?


Sort of... since XM's satellite system provides poorer coverage over North America, they require and have a way more extensive terrestrial repeater network, and in many situations those terrestrial repeaters provide reception where the Sirius satellites can't provide good reception. Terrestrial repeaters provide much better reception in many cases, but it's impractical to provide terrestrial coverage except in select densely populated areas. Another thing that helps XM is that if you have a home receiver that never moves, once you find a spot for the antenna that provides reception, the reception will never change since the XM satellites are geostationary, but that advantage doesn't help the mobile receivers in automobiles, so it's irrelevant in mobile receiver situations.

Recently a 4th Sirius satellite went into service at a geostationary location, making the Sirius broadcast system a hybrid of the XM system and the "North American orbit" coverage that the first 3 Sirius satellites provide, so now the Sirius system has the best of both worlds.


----------



## LameLefty

litzdog911 said:


> steveken:
> XM uses two geosynchronous satellites, shown on the equator (XM1, XM2).
> Sirius has three low-earth orbiting satellites, hence the "goofy" orbit pattern. But note that at least one Sirius satellite is always visible over the North America.


Slight correction: the Sirius orbits depicted above (known as "tundra" orbits) are actually highly-elliptical geos*ynchronous* orbits that are not geo*stationary*. What that means is that they have the same orbital period as the period of earth's rotation (23 hrs 56 min 4 seconds), but because of the elliptical shape of the orbit and the inclination (the angle between the plane of the orbit and the earth's equator), you get this goofy figure-8 groundtrack. The satellites themselves are not making those crazy loops in space - they are moving in a continuously curving freefall around the earth. The groundrack is just a useful optical illusion for those of us on the surface.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> Slight correction: the Sirius orbits depicted above (known as "tundra" orbits) are actually highly-elliptical geos*ynchronous* orbits that are not geo*stationary*. What that means is that they have the same orbital period as the period of earth's rotation (23 hrs 56 min 4 seconds), but because of the elliptical shape of the orbit and the inclination (the angle between the plane of the orbit and the earth's equator), you get this goofy figure-8 groundtrack. The satellites themselves are not making those crazy loops in space - they are moving in a continuously curving freefall around the earth. The groundrack is just a useful optical illusion for those of us on the surface.


I thought that was called a Molniya orbit after some Russian dude.

Mike


----------



## Tom_S

hyde76 said:


> Isn't this also the reason that there are so many complaints about Sirius reception and so few complaints about XM reception?


All I know is I always had MUCH better reception with Sirius. Where I live there are no repeaters for either system(Out in the sticks) but alot of trees and mountains. Sirius handled that Way better and still does.


----------



## vfr781rider

Tom_S said:


> All I know is I always had MUCH better reception with Sirius. Where I live there are no repeaters for either system(Out in the sticks) but alot of trees and mountains. Sirius handled that Way better and still does.


Ditto.


----------



## vfr781rider

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tundra_orbit


----------



## LameLefty

MicroBeta said:


> I thought that was called a Molniya orbit after some Russian dude.
> 
> Mike


Molniya orbits have a 1/2 day period, while tundra orbits are a full day. They're basically variants of the same thing.


----------



## carl6

I had Sirius for a couple of years, and did some major road trips throughout the U.S. and Canada. It gave me excellent coverage in almost all locations. I chose it specifically (against XM) because of the satellite orientation and the better vehicle coverage out in the open.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> Molniya orbits have a 1/2 day period, while tundra orbits are a full day. They're basically variants of the same thing.


Ok, I get it now....actually I looked it up after I posted...which is what I should have done before I posted. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Smthkd

Okay......Shouldn't this be a Directv12 thread and NOT Sirius/XM?
:backtotop


----------



## davemayo

LameLefty said:


> they are moving in a continuously curving freefall around the earth.


[/dumbquestion] Does this mean that they are (very) slowly approaching earth's atmosphere? [/dumbquestion]


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Okay......Shouldn't this be a Directv12 thread and NOT Sirius/XM?
> :backtotop


Just helping people pass the time and learn a little bit about orbital mechanics.


----------



## LameLefty

davemayo said:


> [/dumbquestion] Does this mean that they are (very) slowly approaching earth's atmosphere? [/dumbquestion]


Nope, not really. They are falling toward the earth while at the same time moving along the tangent to the velocity vector. So the net result is that they are always following a curved path. An elliptical orbit (if you remember ellipses from h.s. algebra) has two foci. One focus is the center of mass of the body being orbited, the other is towards the other end of the orbit near the apogee. A circular orbit is just a special case of the ellipse - both foci are the same point, the center of the earth. But in an elliptical orbit, at the apogee (the highest point) the orbiting object begins to move closer to the earth again, so in that sense it's getting closer to the atmosphere, but there's still a big forward component to the vector, so it continues to follow a curving path.


----------



## P Smith

davemayo said:


> [/dumbquestion] Does this mean that they are (very) slowly approaching earth's atmosphere? [/dumbquestion]


If there is no correction and perigee is low enough to be affected by thin atmosphere.


----------



## smiddy

DodgerKing, great graphs! Convergence is a good thing! Come on DIRECTV - 12, let's see those transpponders light up! (SOON!)


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Nope, not really. They are falling toward the earth while at the same time moving along the tangent to the velocity vector. So the net result is that they are always following a curved path. An elliptical orbit (if you remember ellipses from h.s. algebra) has two foci. One focus is the center of mass of the body being orbited, the other is towards the other end of the orbit near the apogee. A circular orbit is just a special case of the ellipse - both foci are the same point, the center of the earth. But in an elliptical orbit, at the apogee (the highest point) the orbiting object begins to move closer to the earth again, so in that sense it's getting closer to the atmosphere, but there's still a big forward component to the vector, so it continues to follow a curving path.


OK;

But before a "Back to Topic,"  just to make sure I'm visualizing this correctly;

If viewed from say above the earth's North Pole the paths of the three Sirius satellites in the highly elliptical "tundra" orbits would appear to trace out something resembling a three leaf clover with the earth at the center, but having narrow leafs and spaced 120° apart from one another around the earth?

That is to say, each of the three satellite orbit's right ascension to the ascending node (RAAN) is spaced by 120° from the others?

Also each individual satellite's mean anomaly in it's respective orbit is staggered by 120° from the others as well?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> OK;
> 
> But before a "Back to Topic,"  just to make sure I'm visualizing this correctly;
> 
> If viewed from say above the earth's North Pole the paths of the three Sirius satellites in the highly elliptical "tundra" orbits would appear to trace out something resembling a three leaf clover with the earth at the center, but having narrow leafs and spaced 120° apart from one another around the earth?
> 
> That is to say, each of the three satellite orbit's right ascension to the ascending node (RAAN) is spaced by 120° from the others?
> 
> Also each individual satellite's mean anomaly in it's respective orbit is staggered by 120° from the others as well?


I believe that is more or less correct in principle, but I think there are only 2 Sirius sats in tundra orbits. The other is equatorial, like XM's. But if you can get JSatTrack to run, you could easily set a vantage point at 90N and watch the satellites trace their orbits to be sure, though I haven't done it myself to verify the particulars of how the spacecraft orbital planes are "staggered" in operation.


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> I believe that is more or less correct in principle, but I think there are only 2 Sirius sats in tundra orbits. The other is equatorial, like XM's. But if you can get JSatTrack to run, you could easily set a vantage point at 90N and watch the satellites trace their orbits to be sure, though I haven't done it myself to verify the particulars of how the spacecraft orbital planes are "staggered" in operation.


Actually, there are three, so that there are two above the US at any given time.


----------



## oldfantom

How do we think the testing of D11 will relate to the timeline of D12? It tested 11 days at location one then about 34 days at location two then moved to final destination and lit up three weeks later. So do the filings seem to indicate something similar? Indicating about 2.5 to 3 months out.

D11 Timeline:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


----------



## Tom Robertson

oldfantom said:


> How do we think the testing of D11 will relate to the timeline of D12? It tested 11 days at location one then about 34 days at location two then moved to final destination and lit up three weeks later. So do the filings seem to indicate something similar? Indicating about 2.5 to 3 months out.
> 
> D11 Timeline:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


Thankfully, this week's grants allow DIRECTV to do all their testing from the first stop at 76°. And if all the testing looks good in 11 days, D12 will drift to the parking spot. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Tom Robertson said:


> Thankfully, this week's grants allow DIRECTV to do all their testing from the first stop at 76°. And if all the testing looks good in 11 days, D12 will drift to the parking spot.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


So D12 is running ahead of schedule? Does this mean we'll get new HD sooner?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So D12 is running ahead of schedule? Does this mean we'll get new HD sooner?


Right now it is running roughly "on schedule". I'm just hopeful about the 11 days of testing. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So D12 is running ahead of schedule? Does this mean we'll get new HD sooner?


We get no new HD from D12 until the FCC paperwork says we can. Right now, the current timeline is in Sixto's first post.


----------



## thelucky1

For my own curiosity how far is it in miles from 76 degrees to parking at 103 degrees?


----------



## tuff bob

thelucky1 said:


> For my own curiosity how far is it in miles from 76 degrees to parking at 103 degrees?


thats pretty easy to figure out. a geosynchronous orbit is 26,199 miles from the center of the planet, so the circumference is 164,613 miles. Taking the 27 degrees of distance between 76W and 103W, 27/360 * 164613 = 12,346 miles.

I think


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> thats pretty easy to figure out. a geosynchronous orbit is 26,199 miles from the center of the planet, so the circumference is 164,613 miles. Taking the 27 degrees of distance between 76W and 103W, 27/360 * 164613 = 12,346 miles.
> 
> I think


Yep. 

Of course, that puts a 1º "slot" at about 457 miles wide, more or less (depending on rounding and such).


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Yep.
> 
> Of course, that puts a 1º "slot" at about 457 miles wide, more or less (depending on rounding and such).


of course he could have been asking how far the satellite has to travel to move between 76 and 103, rather than how far apart they are on the circumference of the orbit.


----------



## thelucky1

tuff bob said:


> of course he could have been asking how far the satellite has to travel to move between 76 and 103, rather than how far apart they are on the circumference of the orbit.


Yes sorry that was what I was asking. thanks for the info.


----------



## tuff bob

thelucky1 said:


> Yes sorry that was what I was asking. thanks for the info.


I don't think we can answer that until we see TLEs at a minimum. Remember, although a geostationary satellite is apparently stationary from the point of view of somebody on the planet, it is still traveling through space at nearly 6900mph.


----------



## AllenE

tuff bob said:


> of course he could have been asking how far the satellite has to travel to move between 76 and 103, rather than how far apart they are on the circumference of the orbit.


Wouldn't they be the same? Wouldn't it drift along the circumference? (Ignoring the altitude change to get increased orbital speed for the drift)


----------



## tuff bob

AllenE said:


> Wouldn't they be the same? Wouldn't it drift along the circumference? (Ignoring the altitude change to get increased orbital speed for the drift)


no. the satellite is traveling at 6900mph. in theory they could use the thrusters to slow it down and it will apparently travel across the sky and hence change orbital location even though its going "less far". So the answer could be anywhere from 0 miles, but most likely what they'll do is slightly increase or decrease the orbit distance for a few days and it will apparently drift across the sky. In that case it could literally travel over a million miles to move between slots since a geostationary satellite travels 164,613 miles a day.


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> it could literally travel over a million miles to move between slots since a geostationary satellite travels 164,613 miles a day.


This is getting into technicalities, your first answer was the one everyone was looking for.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> I believe that is more or less correct in principle, but I think there are only 2 Sirius sats in tundra orbits. The other is equatorial, like XM's. But if you can get JSatTrack to run, you could easily set a vantage point at 90N and watch the satellites trace their orbits to be sure, though I haven't done it myself to verify the particulars of how the spacecraft orbital planes are "staggered" in operation.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom_S said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, there are three, so that there are two above the US at any given time.
Click to expand...

Yes, the animated GIF that was posted in this thread showing 3 Sirius satellites in tundra orbit was accurate in it's depiction.

Additionally, there is one more Sirius satellite that is in a geostationary orbit (that is not shown in the animation) for a total of 4 satellites broadcasting to the Sirius compatible radios.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Thankfully, this week's grants allow DIRECTV to do all their testing from the first stop at 76°. And if all the testing looks good in 11 days, D12 will drift to the parking spot.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Where did the "11 days" come from? I thought that all the documents filed with the FCC called for 30 days of testing at 76°.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> Where did the "11 days" come from? I thought that all the documents filed with the FCC called for 30 days of testing at 76°.


Oldfantom's post to which I replied.


----------



## AllenE

Jeremy W said:


> This is getting into technicalities, your first answer was the one everyone was looking for.


Actually, it was the second part that answered my question. While it would be the same relative to the two positions on the earth, it would be traveling for the entire duration of the adjustment relative to it's actual position in space.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Oldfantom's post to which I replied.


OK, some are hoping that because D11 tested for 11 days, that D12 will only test for 11 days too. That would be great, but are the situations that similar, and was D11 originally scheduled for 30 days of testing too?


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> OK, some are hoping that because D11 tested for 11 days, that D12 will only test for 11 days too. That would be great, but are the situations that similar, and was D11 originally scheduled for 30 days of testing too?


Yes, normal schedule is 30 days.

As for similarity, hard to say. If DIRECTV didn't test D11's BSS package at the first spot, D12 might take longer for that testing at 76°.

And 11 days was very likely an excellent test sequence; D12 might take a bit longer if they have to tweak or adjust.

Yet my hope springs eternal 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

In total, D11 tested for more then 40 days. 

D12 is scheduled for about 30 at the first location.

All on schedule as far as we know, once it gets there.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> In total, D11 tested for more then 40 days.
> 
> D12 is scheduled for about 30 at the first location.
> 
> All on schedule as far as we know, once it gets there.


It's all good....its moving where they want, its still on schedule, and things appear to be NOM EEE NAL.

All good news.

The tracking graphics here are amazing, as well as the ongoing updates regarding its positiion.

Sure hope things continue as they have been going so far.


----------



## wmb

AllenE said:


> Actually, it was the second part that answered my question. While it would be the same relative to the two positions on the earth, it would be traveling for the entire duration of the adjustment relative to it's actual position in space.


There is an "it depends" part of this as well. In order to make the shift, they have to slow it down. The elevations we are seeing and everybody is paying attention to actually corresponds to velocities at those points. If you do the math, here is what you get...










Then when they want to move it, drop velocity, raise the apogee and it moves slowly west. Depending on how much they slow it down, the further apogee goes up, and the faster it moves west.

Right now, the velocity at apogee is about 3095 m/s and the velocity at perogee is about 3600 m/s. Geostationary velocity is about 3075 m/s.

To answer your question, we would need to know how much it is slowed down. Then you divide that by the distance along the arc that it has to move to get how long it will take. Then you multiply that by the orbital velocity and find out how far it has traveled in total.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> In total, D11 tested for more then 40 days.
> 
> D12 is scheduled for about 30 at the first location.
> 
> All on schedule as far as we know, once it gets there.


And definitely recall that D11 sat and tested the experimental package at site two forever. But every filing for D11 said something along the lines of arrive at site X at time Y and test for Z length of time. Y was usually reached early and Z was shorter than requested.

As Tom said, hope springs eternal.

Does anyone recall, without crawling through the D11 thread when we knew about the second testing? There is only one test site before the FCC at this point, right?


----------



## Tom Robertson

oldfantom said:


> And definitely recall that D11 sat and tested the experimental package at site two forever. But every filing for D11 said something along the lines of arrive at site X at time Y and test for Z length of time. Y was usually reached early and Z was shorter than requested.
> 
> As Tom said, hope springs eternal.
> 
> Does anyone recall, without crawling through the D11 thread when we knew about the second testing? There is only one test site before the FCC at this point, right?


As I recall we found out about the second site late. Just before it arrived at site 1 or just before it moved to site 2?

Unless there is a completely new band of tests, I suspect since we know about both bands already and there are tests scheduled and approved for both bands at site 1, we "should" know about all the tests at this point. Especially since the timeline is spelled out from here to test 1 to final parking.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

wmb said:


> ... Then when they want to move it, drop velocity, raise the apogee and it moves slowly west. Depending on how much they slow it down, the further apogee goes up, and the faster it moves west.
> 
> Right now, the velocity at apogee is about 3095 m/s and the velocity at perogee is about 3600 m/s. Geostationary velocity is about 3075 m/s.
> 
> To answer your question, we would need to know how much it is slowed down. Then you divide that by the distance along the arc that it has to move to get how long it will take. Then you multiply that by the orbital velocity and find out how far it has traveled in total.


But for the *actual* distance along the arc the satellite must drift for repositioning, don't you have to include a small (comparatively speaking) correction factor since the satellite's orbital perimeter is raised (in this case) to slightly greater than geosynchronous for a westward drift?


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> As I recall we found out about the second site late. Just before it arrived at site 1 or *just before it moved to site 2 *Cheers,
> Tom ...


Yeah, if IIRC it was the second case when sometime after D11 completed testing at it's assigned slot (forgot which longitude), the following TLEs reported a confusingly westward drift toward the 101° core group instead of east toward its operational 99° slot.

This sent those in the know here at the time scrambling for answers until someone found an overlooked FCC document about the then unbeknown experimental BSS package aboard the spacecraft and it's testing authorization for 101.9° I think.


----------



## wmb

HoTat2 said:


> But for the *actual* distance along the arc the satellite must drift for repositioning, don't you have to include a small (comparatively speaking) correction factor since the satellite's orbital perimeter is raised (in this case) to slightly greater than geosynchronous for a westward drift?


I am sure there are a number of things to correct for that I have left out. The question is what is good enough?

One way to approximate it would be that the original radius is r, and the adjusted radius (r+dr) (d is delta or the difference between the two). The original circumference is 2*(pi)*r. The actual circumference becomes 2*(pi)*(r+dr). The difference between the two is 2*(pi)*(dr). The correction factor would be about 1+(dr/r). If dr is 350 km, then the difference would be about 1%, and the correction factor 1.01.

Next thing is the orbit is elliptical, which would change the the length. In any event, we have a bound on the correction factor... its between 1.00 and 1.01. Anyone want to do the math?


----------



## P Smith

Countinue .... we are listening ...


----------



## wmb

P Smith said:


> Countinue .... we are listening ...


Just playing with equations 4.16 and 4.17 here:

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm

and a little geometry.


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> Just playing with equations 4.16 and 4.17 here:
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm
> 
> and a little geometry.


I think I posted that link several dozen pages ago . . . :lol:


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> I think I posted that link several dozen pages ago . . . :lol:


That's a fun page man!


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> That's a fun page man!


Only if you have at least a tiny bit of affinity for algebra and calculus, or if you can drag out some dregs from a class in school. :grin:


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Only if you have at least a tiny bit of affinity for algebra and calculus, or if you can drag out some dregs from a class in school. :grin:


I wrangle with similar exercises at work daily and it is what I love doing, so yeah.


----------



## Sixto

Only 2.24km/hour .... slow and steady ....



Code:
 

Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-24-2010 06:08:48
Orbit # at Epoch	34
Inclination		0.130
RA of A. Node		276.831
Eccentricity		0.0605127
Argument of Perigee	184.944
Revs per day		1.00180668
Period			23h 57m 24s (1437.40 min)
Semi-major axis		42 190 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 259 x 38 365 km
Element number / age	37 / 0 day(s)

Lon			70.4469° W
Lat			0.0774° S
Alt (km)		33 877.830

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
037 01/24 06:08:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H 26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°[/COLOR][/B]
036 01/21 13:22:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H 23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°
035 01/20 17:08:34 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H 22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°
034 01/18 10:58:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H 20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°
033 01/18 10:58:07 32,665 x 38,902  6,237 +43.11H 20.44D  66.56°W  0.13°S  0.18°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## desk_rabbit

I was always amazed how much precision must take to launch a geostationary satellite, not only putting it in the right place but also stabilizing it.. first of all it has to spin slowly so that it is always facing the Earth, then, even a small disturbance will cause slow unwanted spinning which has to be very precisely counteracted.. man, sounds like a magic for me!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Only 2.24km/hour .... slow and steady ....


Neither D12 nor Sixto takes weekends off.


----------



## LameLefty

desk_rabbit said:


> I was always amazed how much precision must take to launch a geostationary satellite, not only putting it in the right place but also stabilizing it.. first of all it has to spin slowly so that it is always facing the Earth, then, even a small disturbance will cause slow unwanted spinning which has to be very precisely counteracted.. man, sounds like a magic for me!


Gravity gradients keep it generally pointing toward the center of the earth. After that, CMG (control moment gyroscopes) can keep things very, very stable without a lot of work on the part of the guidance system. Once the vehicle is "parked" the biggest single force acting on it aside from gravity is solar radiation pressure (and that's measurable and must be taken into account but it's not huge by any stretch of the imagination).


----------



## TheRatPatrol

desk_rabbit said:


> I was always amazed how much precision must take to launch a geostationary satellite, not only putting it in the right place but also stabilizing it.. first of all it has to spin slowly so that it is always facing the Earth, then, even a small disturbance will cause slow unwanted spinning which has to be very precisely counteracted.. man, sounds like a magic for me!


You and I both, I'm still amazed at how it all works.


----------



## Sixto

4.62km/hr over past 23.14 hours ....


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-25-2010 05:17:27
Orbit # at Epoch	35
Inclination		0.110
RA of A. Node		274.698
Eccentricity		0.0576530
Argument of Perigee	188.907
Revs per day		1.00233883
Period			23h 56m 38s (1436.63 min)
Semi-major axis		42 175 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 366 x 38 229 km
Element number / age	38 / 0 day(s)

Lon			71.7757° W
Lat			0.0463° S
Alt (km)		33 617.450

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
038 01/25 05:17:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H 27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°[/COLOR][/B]
037 01/24 06:08:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H 26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°
036 01/21 13:22:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H 23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°
035 01/20 17:08:34 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H 22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°
034 01/18 10:58:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]32,727[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,854[/COLOR][/B]  6,127 + 0.00H 20.44D  66.92°W  0.22°S  0.27°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## jefbal99

Holy crap, go on vacation for a lil over a week and I miss a ton.

Can we get the convergence graphs zoomed in a bit more, might help is seeing the changes as TLEs come out.

Glad to see the FCC tell Spectrum 5 to STFU, when they build a bird, lets talk, if there is an issue...

Hope to see D12 parked for testing in about two weeks...


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest


----------



## smiddy

jefbal99 said:


> Holy crap, go on vacation for a lil over a week and I miss a ton.
> 
> Can we get the convergence graphs zoomed in a bit more, might help is seeing the changes as TLEs come out.
> 
> Glad to see the FCC tell Spectrum 5 to STFU, when they build a bird, lets talk, if there is an issue...
> 
> Hope to see D12 parked for testing in about two weeks...


It is time to buy a smart phone and mobile app into DBSTalk.com eh? 

Yep, a lot is happening, slowly, if you participate here daily, if you blink you may miss something though.


----------



## trainman

desk_rabbit said:


> I was always amazed how much precision must take to launch a geostationary satellite, not only putting it in the right place but also stabilizing it.. first of all it has to spin slowly so that it is always facing the Earth, then, even a small disturbance will cause slow unwanted spinning which has to be very precisely counteracted.. *man, sounds like a magic for me!*


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -- Arthur C. Clarke, who, I note, came up with the idea of using geostationary satellites as communications relays, which has led directly to _this thread_ 65 years later.


----------



## jefbal99

smiddy said:


> It is time to buy a smart phone and mobile app into DBSTalk.com eh?
> 
> Yep, a lot is happening, slowly, if you participate here daily, if you blink you may miss something though.


Didn't want to pay for international data rates in Jamaica. Had Wifi at the resort, but only used it for Skype to check on the boy and upload photos.

I'm normally on this thread 5-10x/day so the 6 pages was a lot of data.

Love the great work everyone does around here.

DodgerKing, can you show a chart that is from Jan 17th to current with the lower limit being 30k KM and the upper limit being 40k KM? I think that will show the recent movements much better.


----------



## HelenWeathers

jefbal99 said:


> DodgerKing, can you show a chart that is from Jan 17th to current with the lower limit being 30k KM and the upper limit being 40k KM? I think that will show the recent movements much better.


Or 25 to 45 and keep D11 in the mix??


----------



## DodgerKing

NP...

I'll work on it when I get home


----------



## ATARI

DodgerKing said:


> NP...
> 
> I'll work on it when I get home


thanks in advance


----------



## Sixto

D12 is now where D11 was at day #48 (of 70), which would put D12 at 2/16/2010 (if same as D11).

post#1 has the complete D12 vs D11 comparison.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> D12 is now where D11 was at day #48 (of 70), which would put D12 at 2/16/2009 (if same as D11).
> 
> post#1 has the complete D12 vs D11 comparison.


Amazing information.

I look at Post #1 and say to myself - incredible that we would have that kind of detailed information, instead of sitting in the dark on things for 4 months.


----------



## DodgerKing

ATARI said:


> thanks in advance


Here you go


----------



## jefbal99

Very nice DK, can see the fine movements much better


----------



## ATARI

Looks like the past 10 days have been slow and steady.

Using the data you have entered into excel, can you extrapolate the estimated time till target using a the rate of km/hour for the past week?


----------



## Sixto

ATARI said:


> Looks like the past 10 days have been slow and steady.
> 
> Using the data you have entered into excel, can you extrapolate the estimated time till target using a the rate of km/hour for the past week?


At the end, D11 had a good pace of 5.5-6km/hour which would be 16.81 days (2/10/10 7:37 PM) to 18.33 days (2/12/10 8:17 AM).

The last 10 days of D12 has actually just been 3.13km/hour, which puts it at 32.23 days (2/26/10 5:53 AM).

And if you just look at how long D11 needed to get from this exact spot, it was 22 days.

So we're somewhere between 2/10 and 2/26, middle being 2/18.


----------



## Ken984

New TLE



Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10026.26930007 -.00000259  00000-0  10000-3 0   397
2 36131 000.1699 270.8947 0447825 192.6997 044.4587 01.00189320   366

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-01-26 06:27:47
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination	0.170
RA of A. Node	270.895
Eccentricity	0.0447825
Argument of Perigee	192.700
Revs per day	1.00189320
Period	23h 57m 16s (1437.27 min)
Semi-major axis	42 188 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 920 x 37 699 km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-26-2010 06:27:47
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination		0.170
RA of A. Node		270.895
Eccentricity		0.0447825
Argument of Perigee	192.700
Revs per day		1.00189320
Period			23h 57m 16s (1437.27 min)
Semi-major axis		42 188 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 920 x 37 699 km
Element number / age	39 / 0 day(s)

Lon			70.5771° W
Lat			0.1261° S
Alt (km)		34 496.590

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
039 01/26 06:27:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H 28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°[/COLOR][/B]
038 01/25 05:17:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H 27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°
037 01/24 06:08:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H 26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°
036 01/21 13:22:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H 23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°
035 01/20 17:08:34 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,008[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,510[/COLOR][/B]  5,502 +54.17H 22.70D  76.69°W  0.09°N  0.20°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Great progress with this latest update.

Was 22.01km/hour over the past 25.17 hours, which now again brings that 10-day perigee raise average into the 5-6km range (5.23). 

We're now again back in the 2/8-2/10 date range, but somewhat unpredictable.

Picked up 3 days on D11. D12 now past where D11 was at day 51 (of 70).

Looking good.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Looking good.


Those two words work for me.


----------



## DodgerKing

Really shows on the graphs now


----------



## Tom_S

It's amazing looking at those graphs at just how slow the pace to bring D11 in was. They really were in no rush at all on that one. Almost seems like they dragged it out on purpose. We didn't get much out of it(National HD) so it's really no big deal.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Nice! I just checked earlier this morning and it looked like we were settled in for a slow, steady pace, and now this! Nice work Sixto and DodgerKing
BTW I was a big Brooklyn Dodger fan as a kid, except when they played the Pirates. My dad took me to a lot of Dodger-Pirate games at Forbes Field back in the '50's. Almost always a true (one price for 2 games, and prescheduled) doubleheader.


----------



## Sixto

More Spectrum Five:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=796143​


----------



## ATARI

DodgerKing said:


> Really shows on the graphs now.


Wow! What an increase. Could we be just two weeks away from final parked orbit?


----------



## Tom_S

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=796143​


People should know when they are defeated.


----------



## Newshawk

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=796143​


What a slapdown! :eek2: Do I detect a slight, barely perceptible bit of annoyance creeping into the language of the posting? :sure: I especially like this:



> Neither Spectrum Five's fervent desires nor the pendency of its petition for reconsideration alter the situation...
> 
> Moreover, Spectrum Five has not explained why the grant of launch authority without the grant of conditions it had requested would in any way predjuice the interests of _anyone_.


----------



## jefbal99

My greatest laugh came from the following line



> even Spectrum Five cannot seriously expect the satellite to be "unlaunched."


----------



## cdizzy

jefbal99 said:


> My greatest laugh came from the following line


Yea, that was funny.


----------



## ATARI

Tom_S said:


> People should know when they are defeated.


Sounds like they are legally saying STFU and go away.


----------



## Hoosier205

What is Spectrum Five?

What are they opposed to?

Why are they opposed to it?

I'm sorry, but this entire thread turns my brain to mush. It's like reading a foreign language.


----------



## dpeters11

Spectrum Five is theoretically wanting to be a competitor to Dish and DirecTV right? If they are like this now, what will they be like if they manage to actually launch a satellite and service?


----------



## LameLefty

Hoosier205 said:


> What is Spectrum Five?
> 
> What are they opposed to?
> 
> Why are they opposed to it?
> 
> I'm sorry, but this entire thread turns my brain to mush. It's like reading a foreign language.


Spectrum Five is a corporation (actually a Limited Liability Company if I remember correctly but don't worry about that part). They hold a BSS band license from the FCC to offer satellite transmission service to the U.S. However, at this point they do not have any satellites in orbit and, the last time I looked, I didn't see that they even have a contract with a launch provider to launch one. They may have a satellite on order but I don't know.

They are basically whining about the RB-2A payload on Directv 12 because they claim the FCC was wrong in authorizing it; in addition, they are challenging the FCC authorization for the full RB-2 payload on a future dedicated BSS-band satellite. They have lost on that challenge once but are trying to get the FCC to change it's collective mind.


----------



## kevinwmsn

ATARI said:


> Wow! What an increase. Could we be just two weeks away from final parked orbit?


No, Its got to go to its testing spot first and let D* do their testing then they will move it to its designated spot.


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> Spectrum Five is a corporation (actually a Limited Liability Company if I remember correctly but don't worry about that part). They hold a BSS band license from the FCC to offer satellite transmission service to the U.S. However, at this point they do not have any satellites in orbit and, the last time I looked, I didn't see that they even have a contract with a launch provider to launch one. They may have a satellite on order but I don't know.
> 
> They are basically whining about the RB-2A payload on Directv 12 because they claim the FCC was wrong in authorizing it; in addition, they are challenging the FCC authorization for the full RB-2 payload on a future dedicated BSS-band satellite. They have lost on that challenge once but are trying to get the FCC to change it's collective mind.


Aren't there milestones for BSS holders that they have to meet, including a deadline for launch?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

All I can say is with regard to Spectrum Five, the term BSS takes on a whole new meaning.


----------



## steveken

Stuart Sweet said:


> All I can say is with regard to Spectrum Five, the term BSS takes on a whole new meaning.


Indeed.


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> Aren't there milestones for BSS holders that they have to meet, including a deadline for launch?


Yes but the milestones are several years apart. All you have to do up front is put up a bond ($3M, I think - not a lot for a company planning to spend a few hundred million building and launching a satellite - and that even assumes they pay the full bond in cash rather than financing it through a financial house). In any event, I don't know what their milestone dates are and don't want to go digging around to find them right now.

Given how much they appear to have P.O.'d the FCC International Bureau already, I'm sure the Commission won't hesitate to revoke their license if they fail to meet a milestone.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jefbal99 said:


> My greatest laugh came from the following line


Yeah, I had the guy in the next cube askin' me what's so funny. That was a good one. !rolling

If it must be "unlaunched"...just where are Spectrum's corporate offices again. 

MIke


----------



## dpeters11

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah, I had the guy in the next cube askin' me what's so funny. That was a good one. !rolling
> 
> If it must be "unlaunched"...just where are Spectrum's corporate offices again.
> 
> MIke


Too much restricted airspace unfortunately. Maybe drop it off on the CEOs front lawn if he lives outside the city.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-26-2010 10:35:01
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination		0.157
RA of A. Node		269.590
Eccentricity		0.0456136
Argument of Perigee	191.798
Revs per day		1.00156531
Period			23h 57m 44s (1437.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 197 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 894 x 37 744 km
Element number / age	40 / 0 day(s)

Lon			69.6987° W
Lat			0.1200° S
Alt (km)		36 501.270

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
040 01/26 10:35:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H 28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°[/COLOR][/B]
039 01/26 06:27:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H 28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°
038 01/25 05:17:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H 27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°
037 01/24 06:08:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H 26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°
036 01/21 13:22:44 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,114[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,484[/COLOR][/B]  5,370 +20.24H 23.54D  70.48°W  0.05°S  0.20°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Smthkd

Thats weird, seems to backtracked alittle!


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Yes but the milestones are several years apart. All you have to do up front is put up a bond ($3M, I think - not a lot for a company planning to spend a few hundred million building and launching a satellite - and that even assumes they pay the full bond in cash rather than financing it through a financial house). In any event, I don't know what their milestone dates are and don't want to go digging around to find them right now.
> 
> Given how much they appear to have P.O.'d the FCC International Bureau already, I'm sure the Commission won't hesitate to revoke their license if they fail to meet a milestone.


I'm going to do this from memory rather than look it up:
Milestone #1: Contract with satellite manufacturer--1 year from slot allocation
#2: Complete satellite critical design review--2 years from allocation
#3: Commence construction--3 years from allocation
#4: Launch and begin operations within 5 years of allocation

Occasionally the FCC will grant extensions on the last milestone if good faith progress has been made on the first 3. Sometimes launch vehicle manifests are upended when the unfortunate happens.

And LameLefty is correct, milestone 0 is a $3M deposit. As milestones are completed, portions of the deposit are refunded.

You can bet satellite manufacturers are drooling over the contracts for the BSS satellites that have to be launched in 4.5 years. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> Thats weird, seems to backtracked alittle!


Yes, a little worse. Sometimes happens when they make adjustments or data just gets corrected. Was slight, only lost 26km of the 554 gain from earlier. Still good.


----------



## P Smith

Could be necessary maneuver related to inclination.


----------



## garyhall

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge on this topic. This is great fun. 

I wonder if I could ask your indulgence for a little "real life" background. How reactive is the process of placing satellite into its orbit? I'm wondering if these small movements we observe are planned out completely in advance and someone already knows the exact second the bird will be in place or are the engineers reacting to changes like solar array deployment and such. 

Also, how are directional changes accomplished on D12 and what type of issues could still come up before final checkout?

Thanks again everyone!


----------



## Tom Robertson

For the most part, my understanding is the general plan is decided upon before launch. And the reactive part is just the very specific timing or amount of the thrusts to add in a course correction.

As you've seen, D10 was very quickly put into place. D11 and D12 are taking a longer time to complete the maneuvers--presumably to save on fuel to maximize the on station life. A bit of fuel saved now lets the satellite stay in place longer.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-27-2010 04:30:10
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination		0.153
RA of A. Node		271.019
Eccentricity		0.0419544
Argument of Perigee	190.009
Revs per day		1.00120271
Period			23h 58m 16s (1438.27 min)
Semi-major axis		42 207 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 058 x 37 600 km
Element number / age	41 / 0 day(s)

Lon			72.9772° W
Lat			0.0551° S
Alt (km)		34 147.270

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
041 01/27 04:30:10 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H 29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°[/COLOR][/B]
040 01/26 10:35:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H 28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°
039 01/26 06:27:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H 28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°
038 01/25 05:17:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H 27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°
037 01/24 06:08:48 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,259[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,365[/COLOR][/B]  5,106 +64.77H 26.24D  70.45°W  0.08°S  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With the latest update, moved up nicely at 9.15km/hour. Gained another 164km.

In the 2/6/2010-2/12/2010 range.


----------



## cartrivision

Can someone summarize what exactly is in contention between DirecTV and Spectrum 5? I've been following the saga in this thread but the details still escape me. How does RB-2A, RB2, and any proposed Spectrum 5 satellites play into the saga? 

Has DirecTV been licensed to broadcast on the BSS spectrum from the 103W slot? 

Does that license apply to RB-2A, RB-2, or both?

Does Spectrum 5's protest contend that they were "in line" before RB-2A, RB-2, or both, and how will the settlement of that argument affect which satellite(s) will ultimately be allowed to broadcast on the BSS spectrum from 103W?

Is it DirecTV's claim that they applied for and were granted authorization for RB2 BSS broadcasts from 103W before any Spectrum 5 applications, so they now should have the right to broadcast on that spectrum at 103W, even from satellites that were "in line" for authorization behind any Spectrum 5 satellites?


----------



## jefbal99

cartrivision said:


> Can someone summarize what exactly is in contention between DirecTV and Spectrum 5? I've been following the saga in this thread but the details still escape me. How does RB-2A, RB2, and any proposed Spectrum 5 satellites play into the saga?
> 
> Has DirecTV been licensed to broadcast on the BSS spectrum from the 103W slot?
> 
> Does that license apply to RB-2A, RB-2, or both?
> 
> Does Spectrum 5's protest contend that they were "in line" before RB-2A, RB-2, or both, and how will the settlement of that argument affect which satellite(s) will ultimately be allowed to broadcast on the BSS spectrum from 103W?
> 
> Is it DirecTV's claim that they applied for and were granted authorization for RB2 BSS broadcasts from 103W before any Spectrum 5 applications, so they now should have the right to broadcast on that spectrum at 103W, even from satellites that were "in line" for authorization behind any Spectrum 5 satellites?


I think yer pretty close...

DirecTV has rights for RB2 at 103, however, Spectrum 5 claims there was an issue with the original application and it should be tossed out. DirecTV was able to reconfigure D12 to have some BSS TPs and that is the RB2A filing. Spectrum says that should be third in line behind RB2 and their filing.


----------



## Hdhead

P Smith said:


> Could be necessary maneuver related to inclination.


Or to avoid an asteroid. :new_Eyecr


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## Ken984

New TLE


Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10027.50000000 -.00000281  00000-0  00000+0 0   420
2 36131 000.1530 276.8290 0404126 183.9160 131.5900 01.00445668   377

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-01-27 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination	0.153
RA of A. Node	276.829
Eccentricity	0.0404126
Argument of Perigee	183.916
Revs per day	1.00445668
Period	23h 53m 36s (1433.60 min)
Semi-major axis	42 116 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 036 x 37 440 km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-27-2010 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination		0.153
RA of A. Node		276.829
Eccentricity		0.0404126
Argument of Perigee	183.916
Revs per day		1.00445668
Period			23h 53m 36s (1433.60 min)
Semi-major axis		42 116 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 036 x 37 440 km
Element number / age	42 / 0 day(s)

Lon			70.9345° W
Lat			0.0980° S
Alt (km)		36 905.370

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B][COLOR="Blue"]
042 01/27 12:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,036[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H 29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°[/COLOR][/B]
041 01/27 04:30:10 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H 29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°
040 01/26 10:35:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H 28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°
039 01/26 06:27:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H 28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°
038 01/25 05:17:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,366[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]38,229[/COLOR][/B]  4,863 +23.14H 27.20D  71.78°W  0.05°S  0.11°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

This latest update (#42) was one of those weird ones.

Funky timestamp, bottom of orbit a little worse by 22km, top of orbit better by 160, net improvement of 138km.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> This latest update (#42) was one of those weird ones.
> 
> Funky time stamp, bottom of orbit a little worse by 22km, top of orbit better by 160, net improvement of 138km.


Glad my lack of figuring all that out wasn't offbase...

Once we get to the first week of February...then I'll really be interested to see where D12 is positioned...but the daily movements are fascinating as well.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Glad my lack of figuring all that out wasn't offbase...
> 
> Once we get to the first week of February...then I'll really be interested to see where D12 is positioned...but the daily movements are fascinating as well.


The last TLE, last few TLE, and 10-TLE view all point to 2/8/10 12:27am to 2/12/10 8:17am range ... but anything can change with any update!


----------



## HoTat2

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Glad my lack of figuring all that out wasn't offbase...
> 
> Once we get to the first week of February...then I'll really be interested to see where D12 is positioned...but the daily movements are fascinating as well.


I imagine so, since once D12 reaches and settles down at 76Â° W.L. there won't be too much to report on the TLE maneuvering front for a good while.

As its now time for P. Smith and others with the spectrum analyzers to take over trying to sniff out transmissions for any signs of D12's CONUS beam transponder testing.

They should be quite distinctive though since they will be the first customer Ka CONUS signals from DirecTV to employ the Ka-hi (19.7-20.2 GHz) band.

Too bad though that the BSS transmissions from the RB-2A payload are spotted and will be successively positioned over DirecTV's NWUF for it's testing. So unless someone with a spectrum analyzer happens to be under RB-2A's spotbeam footprint over Yakima County, WA. we won't be able to see signs of testing activity for this phase.


----------



## P Smith

I can check Ka signals from regular spots - 99W and 103W only. 
You'll need other geek who could set second Ka dish for sniff those signals from 76W.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> The last TLE, last few TLE, and 10-TLE view all point to 2/8/10 12:27am to 2/12/10 8:17am range ... but anything can change with any update!


Well, I got past 1/27 at 10 AM pacific, the next geek date to watch for is 2/8.

Who knows, I may be scheduling my new HD season passes on my iPad. I won't have it for the parking, but should by lights on.


----------



## Jeremy W

oldfantom said:


> Who knows, I may be scheduling my new HD season passes on my iPad. I won't have it for the parking, but should by lights on.


If you're getting the Wi-Fi version, you'll be fine. If you're getting the 3G, you'll be cutting it very close.

Personally, I have no use for an oversized iPod Touch. But, to each his own!


----------



## oldfantom

Jeremy W said:


> If you're getting the Wi-Fi version, you'll be fine. If you're getting the 3G, you'll be cutting it very close.
> 
> Personally, I have no use for an oversized iPod Touch. But, to each his own!


I like to browse things like, well this forum, away from my pc. My iPhone is too small to sanely browse this thread. I like the idea of a smallish internet device that I can read books (like my wife does with her Kindle) and keep up on the progress of D12 while sitting in the living room.

Does the "keep up with the progress of D12" keep this reply on topic enough? Never mind, I know.... :backtotop


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-27-2010 12:11:11
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination		0.147
RA of A. Node		278.752
Eccentricity		0.0411539
Argument of Perigee	180.223
Revs per day		1.00656869
Period			23h 50m 36s (1430.60 min)
Semi-major axis		42 057 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 948 x 37 410 km
Element number / age	43 / 0 day(s)

Lon			71.1138° W
Lat			0.0939° S
Alt (km)		36 961.400

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
043 01/27 12:11:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H 29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°
042 01/27 12:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,036[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H 29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°
041 01/27 04:30:10 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H 29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°
040 01/26 10:35:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H 28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°
039 01/26 06:27:47 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,920[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,699[/COLOR][/B]  3,779 +25.17H 28.25D  70.58°W  0.13°S  0.17°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

As expected, update #42 (with that weird timestamp) did adjust a little with update #43.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> As expected, update #42 (with that weird timestamp) did adjust a little with update #43.


At least its going in the right direction (literally and figuratively ).


----------



## Sixto

At the 1-month anniversary. :balloons:

About two weeks to go until the test location.


----------



## vfr781rider

Wow, it's already been a month?! Sure doesn't seem like it...


----------



## jefbal99

man, slow day for this thread hoping to see a TLE or something 

Just checked Space-track, still 43


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-28-2010 06:56:27
Orbit # at Epoch	38
Inclination		0.154
RA of A. Node		273.150
Eccentricity		0.0384965
Argument of Perigee	189.449
Revs per day		1.00152275
Period			23h 57m 48s (1437.80 min)
Semi-major axis		42 198 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 196 x 37 445 km
Element number / age	45 / 0 day(s)

Lon			70.8809° W
Lat			0.1174° S
Alt (km)		34 908.440

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°[B]
045 01/28 06:56:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H 30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°
043 01/27 12:11:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H 29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°
042 01/27 12:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,036[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H 29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°
041 01/27 04:30:10 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H 29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°
040 01/26 10:35:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,894[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,744[/COLOR][/B]  3,850 + 4.12H 28.43D  69.70°W  0.12°S  0.16°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this last update (#45), moving up nicely at 13.22km/hour over past 18.75 hours.

Still sitting in that 2/6-2/12 range, with the more usual 5.5km/hour at 2/9/10 3:01 AM.


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## Smthkd

Very nice! Good to see we are getting closer to the final approach of the test location!


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> With this last update (#45), moving up nicely at 13.22km/hour over past 18.75 hours.
> 
> Still sitting in that 2/6-2/12 range, with the more usual 5.5km/hour at 2/9/10 3:01 AM.


so are we going to see an out of sequence TLE 44 in the near future? I always feel fishy when a TLE is skipped

Edit in: NM, I went to space-track and saw that 44 and 45 were released close together...


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> so are we going to see an out of sequence TLE 44 in the near future? I always feel fishy when a TLE is skipped
> 
> Edit in: NM, I went to space-track and saw that 44 and 45 were released close together...


Yes, I just skipped 44. It had a 10028.30000000 timestamp compared to the 10028.28920707. Virtually the same.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Yes, I just skipped 44. It had a 10028.30000000 timestamp compared to the 10028.28920707. Virtually the same.


I salute you sir for your dedication


----------



## Ken984

New TLE


Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10029.60371464 -.00000293  00000-0  00000+0 0   465
2 36131 000.1512 268.4833 0331924 192.6949 170.5239 01.00409937   393

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-01-29 14:29:20
Orbit # at Epoch	39
Inclination	0.151
RA of A. Node	268.483
Eccentricity	0.0331924
Argument of Perigee	192.695
Revs per day	1.00409937
Period	23h 54m 07s (1434.12 min)
Semi-major axis	42 126 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 350 x 37 146 km


----------



## LameLefty

Ken984 said:


> New TLE
> 
> Perigee x Apogee	34 350 x 37 146 km


Moving right along.


----------



## Sixto

New TLE looks great Will update later.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> New TLE looks great Will update later.


Perigee up 154km while the Apogee came down 299km


----------



## Newshawk

I know this is the D12 thread, but I did notice one thing when I was checking signal strengths a while ago (to see how bad the snow fade is from Tulsa's latest snowstorm). Satellite 103 (c) is now Satellite 103 (cb). Hmmm... :scratch:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> New TLE looks great Will update later.


A happy Sixto makes me a happy waiter for D12.


----------



## usnret

For what it's worth, I am in the Toledo, Ohio DMA and my 103 still shows just (c).


----------



## Curtis0620

Here in Florida it's (cb)


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-29-2010 14:29:20
Orbit # at Epoch	39
Inclination		0.151
RA of A. Node		268.483
Eccentricity		0.0331924
Argument of Perigee	192.695
Revs per day		1.00409937
Period			23h 54m 07s (1434.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 126 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 350 x 37 146 km
Element number / age	46 / 0 day(s)

Lon			73.7246° W
Lat			0.0019° N
Alt (km)		37 131.740

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
046 01/29 14:29:20 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H 31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°
045 01/28 06:56:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H 30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°
043 01/27 12:11:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H 29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°
042 01/27 12:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,036[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H 29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°
041 01/27 04:30:10 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,058[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,600[/COLOR][/B]  3,542 +17.92H 29.17D  72.98°W  0.06°S  0.15°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Another good bump with update #46.

Down a little to 4.88km/hour over 31.59 hours. 

The average 5.5km/hour would put it at 2/9/10 6:34 AM.

Nice to be below 3k gap.

D12 is where D11 was at day 56 (of 70).


----------



## DodgerKing

Looking really good now. This is the point were D10 really took a sharp turn


----------



## srenker

usnret said:


> For what it's worth, I am in the Toledo, Ohio DMA and my 103 still shows just (c).


It depends not on your location, but whether you've received your software update yet.


----------



## Jeremy W

srenker said:


> It depends not on your location, but whether you've received your software update yet.


It must depend on more than that, because I *have* received the software update, but I do not have 103 (cb).


----------



## Ed Campbell

Jeremy W said:


> It must depend on more than that, because I *have* received the software update, but I do not have 103 (cb).


Ditto.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-30-2010 06:49:31
Orbit # at Epoch	40
Inclination		0.140
RA of A. Node		269.663
Eccentricity		0.0325129
Argument of Perigee	192.653
Revs per day		1.00296650
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 409 x 37 150 km
Element number / age	47 / 0 day(s)

Lon			71.1898° W
Lat			0.1070° S
Alt (km)		35 019.640


[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
047 01/30 06:49:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,150[/COLOR][/B]  2,741 +16.34H 32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°
046 01/29 14:29:20 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H 31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°
045 01/28 06:56:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H 30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°
043 01/27 12:11:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H 29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°
042 01/27 12:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,036[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,440[/COLOR][/B]  3,404 + 7.50H 29.48D  70.93°W  0.10°S  0.15°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## LameLefty

Code:


Name			Directv-12 047
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-01-30 06:49:31
Orbit # at Epoch	40
Inclination		0.140
RA of A. Node		269.663
Eccentricity		0.0325129
Argument of Perigee	192.653
Revs per day		1.00296650
Period			23h 55m 44s (1435.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 158 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	34 409 x 37 150 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		55.120
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	47 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#47), movement was 3.61km/hour over past 16.34 hours.

Using the 5.5km/hour metric, projected arrival is 2/9/10 12:11pm.

Using a last 10-TLE metric (6.18km/hour), projected arrival is 2/8/10 8:32am.

Using a last 15-TLE metric (5.18km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 3:24am.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Newshawk said:


> I know this is the D12 thread, but I did notice one thing when I was checking signal strengths a while ago (to see how bad the snow fade is from Tulsa's latest snowstorm). Satellite 103 (c) is now Satellite 103 (cb). Hmmm... :scratch:


103 (cb) for me too.


----------



## Sixto

For those with 103(cb), are you running the NR?


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> nope I'm on CE


That's why.

All CE discussion in CE forum.


----------



## Newshawk

Sixto said:


> That's why.
> 
> All CE discussion in CE forum.


Oops, sorry. :blush:


----------



## Ken984

New TLE


Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10030.70741888 -.00000293  00000-0  00000+0 0   481
2 36131 000.1241 268.8791 0323748 193.0415 208.2244 01.00282525   406

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-01-30 16:58:40
Orbit # at Epoch	40
Inclination	0.124
RA of A. Node	268.879
Eccentricity	0.0323748
Argument of Perigee	193.042
Revs per day	1.00282525
Period	23h 55m 56s (1435.93 min)
Semi-major axis	42 162 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 419 x 37 149 km


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> New TLE
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Perigee x Apogee	34 419 x 37 149 km[/QUOTE]
> 
> Really, 10km on Perigee, in 10hrs, thats it?
> 
> Gonna really hurt the average speed...


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-30-2010 16:58:40
Orbit # at Epoch	40
Inclination		0.124
RA of A. Node		268.879
Eccentricity		0.0323748
Argument of Perigee	193.042
Revs per day		1.00282525
Period			23h 55m 56s (1435.93 min)
Semi-major axis		42 162 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 419 x 37 149 km
Element number / age	48 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0034° W
Lat			0.0606° N
Alt (km)		37 001.200

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
048 01/30 16:58:40 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,419[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,149[/COLOR][/B]  2,730 +10.15H 32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°
047 01/30 06:49:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,150[/COLOR][/B]  2,741 +16.34H 32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°
046 01/29 14:29:20 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H 31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°
045 01/28 06:56:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H 30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°
043 01/27 12:11:11 [B][COLOR="Red"]33,948[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,410[/COLOR][/B]  3,462 +  .19H 29.49D  71.11°W  0.09°S  0.15°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#48), perigee movement was 0.98km/hour when averaged over the 10.15 hour time change.

Using the 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/9/10 8:31pm.

Using a last 10-TLE average (7.49km/hour), projected arrival is 2/7/10 2:26am.

Using a last 15-TLE average (5.24km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 8:47am.

Note: The 5.5km/hour average was experienced with D11. Movement may actually only occur at a specific time within the daily orbit averaged over an extended period of time.


----------



## xylo

jefbal99 said:


> Really, 10km on Perigee, in 10hrs, thats it?
> 
> Gonna really hurt the average speed...


Looks like they are making tweaks to the inclination however.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		01-31-2010 17:11:41
Orbit # at Epoch	41
Inclination		0.159
RA of A. Node		279.579
Eccentricity		0.0321984
Argument of Perigee	182.813
Revs per day		1.00321839
Period			23h 55m 22s (1435.37 min)
Semi-major axis		42 151 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 415 x 37 130 km
Element number / age	49 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0829° W
Lat			0.0692° N
Alt (km)		36 938.930

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
049 01/31 17:11:41 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H 33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°
048 01/30 16:58:40 34,419 x 37,149  2,730 +10.15H 32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°
047 01/30 06:49:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,150[/COLOR][/B]  2,741 +16.34H 32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°
046 01/29 14:29:20 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H 31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°
045 01/28 06:56:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,196[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,445[/COLOR][/B]  3,249 +18.75H 30.27D  70.88°W  0.12°S  0.15°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#49), perigee movement was -0.17km/hour when averaged over the 24.22 hour time change.

Using the 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/10/10 9:28pm.

Using a last 10-TLE average (6.73km/hour), projected arrival is 2/8/10 11:57pm.

Using a last 15-TLE average (5.50km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 9:30pm.

Note: The 5.5km/hour average was experienced with D11. Movement may actually only occur at a specific time within the daily orbit averaged over an extended period of time.


----------



## smiddy

Excellent, thanks for the analysis, as always. It is getting closer, I can feel it!


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-01-2010 02:25:25
Orbit # at Epoch	42
Inclination		0.134
RA of A. Node		272.396
Eccentricity		0.0320641
Argument of Perigee	188.879
Revs per day		1.00215789
Period			23h 56m 53s (1436.88 min)
Semi-major axis		42 180 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 450 x 37 155 km
Element number / age	50 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.1415° W
Lat			0.0017° N
Alt (km)		34 462.330

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
050 02/01 02:25:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H 34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°
049 01/31 17:11:41 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H 33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°
048 01/30 16:58:40 34,419 x 37,149  2,730 +10.15H 32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°
047 01/30 06:49:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x 37,150  2,741 +16.34H 32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°
046 01/29 14:29:20 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,350[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,146[/COLOR][/B]  2,796 +31.55H 31.59D  73.72°W  0.00°N  0.15°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Been little movement recently.

With this latest update (#50), perigee movement was 3.79km/hour when averaged over the 9.23 hour time change.

Using the 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/11/10 12:19am.

Using a last 10-TLE average (3.79km/hour), projected arrival is 2/15/10 2:13pm.

Using a last 15-TLE average (5.26km/hour), projected arrival is 2/11/10 11:19am.

Note: The 5.5km/hour average was experienced with D11. Movement may actually only occur at a specific time within the daily orbit averaged over an extended period of time.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-02-2010 00:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	43
Inclination		0.135
RA of A. Node		272.203
Eccentricity		0.0265899
Argument of Perigee	190.060
Revs per day		1.00117660
Period			23h 58m 18s (1438.30 min)
Semi-major axis		42 208 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 708 x 36 952 km
Element number / age	51 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.8941° W
Lat			0.0682° N
Alt (km)		35 051.020

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
051 02/02 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H 34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°
050 02/01 02:25:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H 34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°
049 01/31 17:11:41 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H 33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°
048 01/30 16:58:40 34,419 x 37,149  2,730 +10.15H 32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°
047 01/30 06:49:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,409[/COLOR][/B] x 37,150  2,741 +16.34H 32.27D  71.19°W  0.11°S  0.14°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Smthkd

Steady as she goes! Getting ever closer now! Man I ready for this baby to be at 103 instead of slowly approaching 76!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Smthkd said:


> Steady as she goes! Getting ever closer now! Man I ready for this baby to be at 103 instead of slowly approaching 76!


When it stops at 76 and those long solar arrays open, and we learn it is "alive"....the rest is almost a much less worry part of it all.


----------



## Sixto

Always skeptical of these 00 time stamps, 00:00:00 in this case, but if we assume it's correct, or will soon be updated to be similar ...

With this latest update (#51), perigee movement was 11.96km/hour when averaged over the 21.58 hours.

Using the 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/9/10 11:00pm.

Using a last 10-TLE average (5.17km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 11:28am.

Using a last 15-TLE average (5.77km/hour), projected arrival is 2/9/10 1:58pm.

Note: The 5.5km/hour average was experienced with D11. Movement may actually only occur at a specific time within the daily orbit averaged over an extended period of time.


----------



## Todd H

Getting closer to new HD!!!


----------



## Smthkd

Did u say HD!  Go D12 Go!!


----------



## ATARI

I hope DodgerKing posts updated charts soon...


----------



## Ken984

New TLE


Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10033.26030617 -.00000295  00000-0  00000+0 0   523
2 36131 000.1292 271.2636 0255756 192.4700 047.4802 01.00139645   431

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-02-02 06:14:50
Orbit # at Epoch	43
Inclination	0.129
RA of A. Node	271.264
Eccentricity	0.0255756
Argument of Perigee	192.470
Revs per day	1.00139645
Period	23h 57m 59s (1437.98 min)
Semi-major axis	42 202 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 744 x 36 903 km


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> Perigee x Apogee	34 744 x 36 903 km


Another 35km for the Perigee and down 50km for Apogee

lil by lil, we are getting there  Pretty soon the gap will be under 2000km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-02-2010 06:14:50
Orbit # at Epoch	43
Inclination		0.129
RA of A. Node		271.264
Eccentricity		0.0255756
Argument of Perigee	192.470
Revs per day		1.00139645
Period			23h 57m 59s (1437.98 min)
Semi-major axis		42 202 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 744 x 36 903 km
Element number / age	52 / 0 day(s)

Lon			72.5958° W
Lat			0.0955° S
Alt (km)		35 104.780

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
052 02/02 06:14:50 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H 35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°
051 02/02 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H 34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°
050 02/01 02:25:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H 34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°
049 01/31 17:11:41 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H 33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°
048 01/30 16:58:40 34,419 x 37,149  2,730 +10.15H 32.69D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#52), perigee movement was 5.76km/hour when averaged over the 6.25 hours.

Using the D11 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/9/10 10:42pm.

Using the D12 last 10-TLE average (4.71km/hour), projected arrival is 2/11/10 6:37am.

Using the D12 last 20-TLE average (5.10km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 1:36pm.

Looking good.


----------



## mobandit

I don't want to put a damper on this, but this is about as exciting as watching paint dry...the launch was cool...it won't be cool, again, until it starts broadcasting test signals....just my opinion...

Trying to figure out why I check this thread every day!!!!


----------



## Sixto

mobandit said:


> I don't want to put a damper on this, but this is about as exciting as watching paint dry...the launch was cool...it won't be cool, again, until it starts broadcasting test signals....just my opinion...
> 
> Trying to figure out why I check this thread every day!!!!


You're just checking once a day to see if the paint is almost dry.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> You're just checking once a day to see if the paint is almost dry.


Some of us visit a bit more than that.


----------



## Sixto

Have tweaked the post above to now have both a 10-TLE and 20-TLE average (instead of 15) along with the D11 average. All very similar.


----------



## Sixto

D12 Grant for Testing (2/2/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799125​Was expected but WooHoo anyway!


----------



## cb7214

Sixto said:


> D12 Grant (2/2/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799125​Was expected but WooHoo anyway!


GREAT!!


----------



## Sixto

Now only awaiting the grant for the drift "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location." Just a technicality at this point.


----------



## EaglePC

D12 Hurray! any new HD :nono:


----------



## Alan Gordon

mobandit said:


> I don't want to put a damper on this, but this is about as exciting as watching paint dry...the launch was cool...it won't be cool, again, until it starts broadcasting test signals....just my opinion...


I'd compare it more to golf (please, no Tiger Woods jokes)... it can seem boring to us at times, but I imagine there are many folks participating who are nervous until the end.

Not to mention that while it may seem like a long journey now, in a few months, the long trip from launch to it's final orbit will seem like nothing... as we enjoy the HD it brings us...

~Alan


----------



## FHSPSU67

EaglePC said:


> D12 Hurray! any new HD :nono:


EaglePC, where you been?
We were waiting for you to show up for the launch


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-02-2010 09:41:31
Orbit # at Epoch	43
Inclination		0.126
RA of A. Node		269.645
Eccentricity		0.0264962
Argument of Perigee	192.429
Revs per day		1.00105367
Period			23h 58m 29s (1438.48 min)
Semi-major axis		42 211 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 715 x 36 952 km
Element number / age	53 / 0 day(s)

Lon			71.9810° W
Lat			0.0935° S
Alt (km)		36 067.410

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
053 02/02 09:41:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H 35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°
052 02/02 06:14:50 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H 35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°
051 02/02 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H 34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°
050 02/01 02:25:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H 34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°
049 01/31 17:11:41 34,415 x 37,130  2,715 +24.22H 33.70D  76.08°W  0.07°N  0.16°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Oops ! We are expecting better move.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Oops ! We are expecting better move.


Yep, a little hiccup every once in a while.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Oops ! We are expecting better move.


Wondering about the apparent "slight wobble" in the orbit there....


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some of us visit a bit more than that.


Maybe you should put "this thread" on a twitter type thingy. 

I am down to twice a day. I like watching paint dry BTW, especially if it is latex.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Maybe you should put "this thread" on a twitter type thingy.
> 
> I am down to twice a day. I like watching paint dry BTW, especially if it is latex.


It is on twitter.


----------



## LameLefty

The only thing ANYONE should expect is that D12 be on-station for testing on or about 2/15/2010, as authorized by the FCC. Everything else is supposition.


----------



## P Smith

Then lock the thread up to 2/15 and allow to post only Sixto.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Then lock the thread up to 2/15 and allow to post only Sixto.


The thread is fine as-is.


----------



## Sixto

The 2/15 date is only mentioned in the filing. The grants have only mentioned 30 days from arrival.

Also, it may arrive early, but start transmitting after. Gotta spread those wings, if not already spread!


----------



## P Smith

Someone working in observatory ? 
Could we reserve an hour for catch D12 ? How much it would be for use 10" refractor ?
Would be the "Challenger" telescope is a 30" diameter f/4.8 Newtonian on an English cross-axis equatorial mount is good one ? http://www.fpoa.net/Challenger IMG_0067 04.08.07 800x600 50pct.jpg


----------



## smiddy

I will be looking at my receiver signals daily even though there's not a chance it will pop up anytime soon, since it has to make its way to 103 anyhow, but still. One can hope...


----------



## thelucky1

I have noticed that on all of the FCC authorizations its states "D12 arrival no earlier that Feb. 15th". Therefore should D12 arrive prior to that date, will D12 be allowed to begin testing?


----------



## P Smith

thelucky1 said:


> I have noticed that on all of the FCC authorizations its states "D12 arrival no earlier that Feb. 15th". Therefore should D12 arrive prior to that date, will D12 be allowed to begin testing?


Nope. It's allow what been granted.


----------



## Sixto

thelucky1 said:


> I have noticed that on all of the FCC authorizations its states "D12 arrival no earlier that Feb. 15th". Therefore should D12 arrive prior to that date, will D12 be allowed to begin testing?


That's the request prior to launch.

The approval/grant doesn't say that. Or I missed it?

The grant says "30 days commencing on the date that the DirecTV-12 space station arrives at the 76 W.L. orbital location".


----------



## LameLefty

thelucky1 said:


> I have noticed that on all of the FCC authorizations its states "D12 arrival no earlier that Feb. 15th". Therefore should D12 arrive prior to that date, will D12 be allowed to begin testing?


Nope, at least not signal testing - unless they want to piss off the FCC International Bureau. :grin:

Now, they can do all kinds of tracking, telemetry and command testing, as well as a full test of the power, thermal control and attitude control systems in their operational configurations.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> That's the request prior to launch.
> 
> The approval/grant doesn't say that. Or I missed it?
> 
> The grant says "30 days commencing on the date that the DirecTV-12 space station arrives at the 76 W.L. orbital location".


There are no dates in the grant, the request (attached at the end) says arriving no earlier on than 2/15. I agree with your reading that the grant states they can start as soon as they get there and test up to 30 days. This has happened with the last two satellites. I think in every case, the satellite has got to the destination "early" and tested considerably less than granted timeframe. Of course past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.


----------



## syphix

Does this latest TLE concern them at all, or is this normal?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Does this latest TLE concern them at all, or is this normal?


Normal.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Normal.


Or..... NOM EEEEEE NAL...


----------



## thelucky1

oldfantom said:


> There are no dates in the grant, the request (attached at the end) says arriving no earlier on than 2/15. I agree with your reading that the grant states they can start as soon as they get there and test up to 30 days. This has happened with the last two satellites. I think in every case, the satellite has got to the destination "early" and tested considerably less than granted timeframe. Of course past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.


Thanks for the clarification and all the great information you provide.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Or..... NOM EEEEEE NAL...


I missed that sweet russian voice with the D12 launch


----------



## Jeremy W

jefbal99 said:


> I missed that sweet russian voice with the D12 launch


Nothing will top "Main engine start command. Go inertial..."


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-03-2010 03:44:49
Orbit # at Epoch	44
Inclination		0.109
RA of A. Node		266.586
Eccentricity		0.0254365
Argument of Perigee	196.572
Revs per day		1.00179750
Period			23h 57m 24s (1437.40 min)
Semi-major axis		42 191 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 739 x 36 886 km
Element number / age	54 / 0 day(s)

Lon			74.5323° W
Lat			0.0446° S
Alt (km)		34 757.430

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
054 02/03 03:44:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H 36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°
053 02/02 09:41:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H 35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°
052 02/02 06:14:50 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H 35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°
051 02/02 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H 34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°
050 02/01 02:25:25 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,450[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]37,155[/COLOR][/B]  2,705 + 9.23H 34.09D  75.14°W  0.00°N  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Normal.


Ok, maybe I should rephrase my question: what would cause the satellite to reverse it's direction? Someone "slamming on the brakes" too hard?


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Ok, maybe I should rephrase my question: what would cause the satellite to reverse it's direction? Someone "slamming on the brakes" too hard?


It's not really reversing its direction. 

You have to keep a couple of concepts in mind when discussing the apparent motion of a satellite. First, it's always moving in an elliptical path about the center of the earth. The high point (apogee) and low point (perigee) occur at opposite points along this path, but the earth continues to rotate beneath the orbit, regardless of the fact that there's a satellite moving around it.

As a result of that, you get odd groundtracks. The orbit has a period (length of time it takes to complete one circuit) very close to the rotational period of the earth, but not quite the same. It also has an inclination (angle relative to the equator) of close to but not quite zero. This combination causes the satellite to appear to meander a bit.

Ideally, the satellite will be "parked" at its test slot of 76ºW in a week or two - however, to do so, both the apogee and perigee must be very close to the same figure with an inclination even closer to zero degrees such that the orbit shape is circular rather than elliptical and the orbital period is exactly the same as the earth's rotational period (23 hours 56 minutes and 4.1 seconds). However, to arrange things such that it all comes together at the same time and at the same place requires making very small corrections to the orbit.  The earth is not an exact uniform sphere and there are gravitational irregularities caused by differences in the density of the earth that cause minor orbital irregularities. In addition, the gravitational attraction of the moon, solar radiation pressure and other minor issues (such as precision of navigation, off-access thrusting, tracking errors) all affect the procedure. The result of all of these things is what you see in these TLEs: lots of small corrections, sometimes changes in ways you don't expect, but overall moving towards a circular, geosynchronous orbit parked at 76ºW.


----------



## Sixto

Lefty described it best. It's a journey.

In layman's terms, you might also view it like a car-ride. When you map out how to get from point-A to point-B, you don't literally just follow a straight line. You need to travel on roads, avoid obstacles, and plan your route. At any point in time you might actually be going in the opposite direction for a short period of time, but that's the best path.

This is very similar, but certainly much more complicated as Lefty described.


----------



## syphix

Okay...still digesting all that ...but you, Sixto, called that TLE a "hiccup". Was it unintentional to be at that location at that time? Or is that part of the path/plan?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Okay...still digesting all that ...but you, Sixto, called that TLE a "hiccup". Was it unintentional to be at that location at that time? Or is that part of the path/plan?


All part of the journey.

It was negligible.

Again, as stated above, travel is not always in a straight line.

My "hiccup" comment wasn't meant to mean anything negative.


----------



## LameLefty

One thing, too, about hiccups and weird timestamps and so forth on these TLEs . . .

It's important to remember what these TLEs are, how they are created, and what they are not. They are a set of parameters in a standardized format (the Two-Line Element set) that, when plugged into a standardized mathematical model of objects orbiting the earth, will provide a state-vector for the object at a given time. The state-vector is the position of an object, it's velocity and direction at any specified moment.

However, a TLE is merely an analog - it is not exact and cannot be exact except for the very moment it's created (the "Epoch Time" element of the set). The reasons for this are many: the earth is not a uniform sphere and it doesn't have uniform density, so the gravitational field is not a perfect sphere either; satellites are affected by other gravitational fields, notably the moon and to a very much lesser extent the sun; satellites themselves are subject to solar radiation pressure; they also may accidentally or purposefully vent gases which act propulsively; when they maneuver, sometimes the thrusting isn't precisely where or how intended, or it must act off-axis to the center of mass due to the design of the satellite or pointing requirements, so the orbit is perturbed in less-than-optimal ways; etc.

In addition to all that, a TLE is not always completely accurate for other reasons. Why that is so is due to the way they are created in the first place: to plot an orbit and determine its path, you must take at least two (and preferably many) observations of the satellite's position over a period of time and then do a mathematical "curve fit" to those positions against time of observation. For low, fast-moving satellites, this is relatively easy: they are close, relatively bright, easy to track by radar or by optical measuring systems, and the measurements can this be fairly confidently relied upon. High-orbit satellites are MUCH further away, much harder to observe (usually requiring radar or Doppler-shift tracking) and they appear to move very slowly - serial observations may change so little as to be almost lost in the "noise" or imprecision of the measurements. Consequently, TLEs may be generated based on less-than-perfect data and thus have to be corrected by later observation, or by going back in and adding in, say a radar fix or a telescope observation, and massaging the data to get past the imprecisions.

But anyway, so long as things continue to move along in essentially the right direction, there's nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## smiddy

I seem to recall perturbations in DIRECTV - 11's orbit as it got closer to the parking locations, so this is normal, or as Sixto said, "part of the journey" that it will take. It is indeed getting closer and I'm getting psyched too.


----------



## ATARI

Sounds like D12 is right on schedule, then.

Should be parked sometime next week (my guess is the 10th), and then signal testing can commence on the 15th.

Or have I missed something?

Also, I know it's been asked before, but I don't remember reading a response -- have the solar arrays been deployed yet?


----------



## smiddy

ATARI said:


> Also, I know it's been asked before, but I don't remember reading a response -- have the solar arrays been deployed yet?


I get the impression that the answer is no, but I don't know. I would think that it needs some power from the solar cells to do what it is currently doing. So perhaps partially they are?! I will have to make a couple of phone calls to find out.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ATARI said:


> Sounds like D12 is right on schedule, then.
> 
> Should be parked sometime next week (my guess is the 10th), and then signal testing can commence on the 15th.
> 
> Or have I missed something?
> 
> Also, I know it's been asked before, but I don't remember reading a response -- have the solar arrays been deployed yet?


I asked that question a while back in this thread....and was told that once it gets parked for testing at the 76 location, they can/will be deployed. At that point, D12 can be gradually moved towards its final position...or so I was told.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I asked that question a while back in this thread....and was told that once it gets parked for testing at the 76 location, they can/will be deployed. At that point, D12 can be gradually moved towards its final position...or so I was told.


It can be gradually moved once testing is completed. Can't move it while it's transmitting!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> It can be gradually moved once testing is completed. Can't move it while it's transmitting!


DUH!!!! :lol:


----------



## Sixto

More Spectrum Five / Ciel (2/3/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799335​


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum File / Ciel (2/3/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799335​


Basically it appears Ciel is satisfied with the FCC's actions regarding DIRECTV's satellites at 103° in that the FCC has continued to use the standard language protecting Ciel's rights as the first filer with the ITU at 103°. DIRECTV is not guaranteed any protection from Ciel's interference by the FCC's awarding a slot--DIRECTV must coordinate with Ciel.

(Which is part of what RB-2A's mission seems to be. Measure possible interference patterns from the spotbeams. My suspicion is that DIRECTV's experiments will continue to help the whole industry, something they've done all along.)

Ciel is making no comment about the FCC and Spectrum 5 regarding Spectrum 5's attempt to get into US airspace via the backdoor. Only that the FCC continue to use the standard international language that protects Ciel in this situation.

So, overall it is a positive for DIRECTV and the FCC.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Basically it appears Ciel is satisfied with the FCC's actions regarding DIRECTV's satellites at 103° in that the FCC has continued to use the standard language protecting Ciel's rights as the first filer with the ITU at 103°. DIRECTV is not guaranteed any protection from Ciel's interference by the FCC's awarding a slot--DIRECTV must coordinate with Ciel.
> 
> (Which is part of what RB-2A's mission seems to be. Measure possible interference patterns from the spotbeams. My suspicion is that DIRECTV's experiments will continue to help the whole industry, something they've done all along.)
> 
> Ciel is making no comment about the FCC and Spectrum 5 regarding Spectrum 5's attempt to get into US airspace via the backdoor. Only that the FCC continue to use the standard international language that protects Ciel in this situation.
> 
> So, overall it is a positive for DIRECTV and the FCC.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That's how I read it too - it seems the war is over, the battles are conceded, and now handling of the casualties is the last thing being addressed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's how I read it too - it seems the war is over, the battles are conceded, and now handling of the casualties is the last thing being addressed.


In a sense the war has been over for sometime. Spectrum 5 just hasn't realized it yet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> In a sense the war has been over for sometime. Spectrum 5 just hasn't realized it yet.


You have a point there sir.

I should have said the denial is over.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Basically it appears Ciel is satisfied with the FCC's actions regarding DIRECTV's satellites at 103° in that the FCC has continued to use the standard language protecting Ciel's rights as the first filer with the ITU at 103°. DIRECTV is not guaranteed any protection from Ciel's interference by the FCC's awarding a slot--DIRECTV must coordinate with Ciel.
> 
> (Which is part of what RB-2A's mission seems to be. Measure possible interference patterns from the spotbeams. My suspicion is that DIRECTV's experiments will continue to help the whole industry, something they've done all along.)


To that end, I don't expect BSS from 103 (or perhaps any shared orbital locations) to be anything but spotbeams or a negotiated sharing of transponder slots, unless Ciel gives up their claim completely - for enough money perhaps. :lol:



Tom Robertson said:


> In a sense the war has been over for sometime. Spectrum 5 just hasn't realized it yet.


My assessment too, realistically.


----------



## dpeters11

Lefty, your description of the orbit, and the explanation of the bit of meandering etc reminds me of the apparent retrograde motion of planets, like Mars. Is part of this basically the same concept?


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> Lefty, your description of the orbit, and the explanation of the bit of meandering etc reminds me of the apparent retrograde motion of planets, like Mars. Is part of this basically the same concept?


Yep. Exactly.


----------



## P Smith

dpeters11 said:


> Lefty, your description of the orbit, and the explanation of the bit of meandering etc reminds me of the apparent retrograde motion of planets, like Mars. Is part of this basically the same concept?


If you cut propulsion from the sats.


----------



## dpeters11

P Smith said:


> If you cut propulsion from the sats.


I didn't say it was exactly like Mars....but when he said it was close but not exactly matching the rotation of Earth, it reminded me of apparent retrograde happening because of the difference in speed of the orbits of Mars and Earth.

But the closest I came to an astronomer or rocket scientist was Space Academy and math was my weak subject


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> If you cut propulsion from the sats.


When you see the ground track of a satellite, you're not seeing propulsion anyway, unless you are using something high-end like STK to integrate the propulsive event, taking into account the changing mass of the vehicle; the vector, magnitude and duration of the thrust.

And of course, the planets aren't subject to propulsion.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> To that end, I don't expect BSS from 103 (or perhaps any shared orbital locations) to be anything but spotbeams *or a negotiated sharing of transponder slots, unless Ciel gives up their claim completely - for enough money perhaps.* :lol: ...


Those are the only two future options I can see as well for true nationwide BSS service from the 103 W slot. Either a negotiated settlement for sharing transponder frequencies there or else DirecTV manages to gain total control of the slot.

Otherwise, I don't see how the FCC can realistically expect DirecTV to provide national BSS service in earnest from RB-2 when it is built.


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> To that end, I don't expect BSS from 103 (or perhaps any shared orbital locations) to be anything but spotbeams or a negotiated sharing of transponder slots, unless Ciel gives up their claim completely - for enough money perhaps. :lol


Or the US starts pushing the Canadians on reciprocity.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-04-2010 01:45:07
Orbit # at Epoch	45
Inclination		0.137
RA of A. Node		272.679
Eccentricity		0.0193316
Argument of Perigee	195.142
Revs per day		1.00154810
Period			23h 57m 46s (1437.77 min)
Semi-major axis		42 198 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 004 x 36 635 km
Element number / age	55 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9164° W
Lat			0.0166° N
Alt (km)		35 066.790

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
055 02-04 01:45:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H 37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°
054 02/03 03:44:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H 36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°
053 02/02 09:41:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H 35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°
052 02/02 06:14:50 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H 35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°
051 02/02 00:00:00 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,708[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,244 +21.58H 34.98D  76.89°W  0.07°N  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#55), perigee movement was 12.04km/hour when averaged over the 22.01 hours.

Using the D11 5.5km/hour average, projected arrival is 2/9/10 6:56pm.

Using the D12 last 10-TLE average (4.96km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 10:19am.

Using the D12 last 20-TLE average (5.13km/hour), projected arrival is 2/10/10 5:10am.

Moving great!


----------



## P Smith

Two steps correction - circularize and inclination.


----------



## Sixto

Comparing to both D10 and D11, the last 1500 gap took about 10 days, so it may slow down a little towards the end. We're 6-10 days away, right on schedule (2/15).


----------



## DodgerKing

This is close to the point of when D10 was parked


----------



## dhines

Tom Robertson said:


> In a sense the war has been over for sometime. Spectrum 5 just hasn't realized it yet.





raoul5788 said:


> You mean like in some areas south of the Mason-Dixon line? :eek2:


hmmm . . . you yankees just don't get it do you?

:nono:


----------



## raoul5788

dhines said:


> hmmm . . . you yankees just don't get it do you?
> 
> :nono:


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Sounds like D12 will be giving us a nice Valentine's day gift.


----------



## Sixto

Tomorrow's (2/5/2010) Public Notice of the D12 Test Grant:D12:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=799538​


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Sixto said:


> Tomorrow's (2/5/2010) Public Notice of the D12 Test Grant:D12:http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=799538​


Well the good news is that if it gets there early they can start testing whenever. The grant is for 30 days from when it arrives, with no mention of 2/15/10.

Like it will matter.


----------



## Sixto

flyingtigerfan said:


> Well the good news is that if it gets there early they can start testing whenever. The grant is for 30 days from when it arrives, with no mention of 2/15/10.
> 
> Like it will matter.


It will probably be right around 2/15. D10 and D11 definitely slowed down a little at the end to get geostationary exactly perfect.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> It will probably be right around 2/15. D10 and D11 definitely slowed down a little at the end to get geostationary exactly perfect.


Can we start placing bets? Give me 2/13 03:57:38 GMT


----------



## Jeremy W

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Sounds like D12 will be giving us a nice Valentine's day gift.


It's not giving *us *anything.


----------



## rey_1178

Jeremy W said:


> It's not giving *us *anything.


Yep. it will be a little longer before we get anything. but we're closer


----------



## HoTat2

rey_1178 said:


> Yep. it will be a little longer before we get anything. but we're closer


Well actually, even when at it's assigned orbital slot and fully operational supplying programming, neither D12 or any other aspect of DirecTV are really "giving *us*" John Q. subscriber, anything.

Your high and annually climbing monthly bill will tell you that ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> It's not giving *us *anything.


...other than the peace of mind that D12 continues on its trek towards its final position and eventual activation without the drama that the Dish folks had with their last (failed) sat.


----------



## hancox

Jeremy W said:


> It's not giving *us *anything.


Typical Valentine's Day!

Oh, sorry, wrong topic


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-05-2010 04:07:42
Orbit # at Epoch	46
Inclination		0.182
RA of A. Node		270.500
Eccentricity		0.0181851
Argument of Perigee	151.327
Revs per day		1.00233481
Period			23h 56m 38s (1436.63 min)
Semi-major axis		42 175 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 030 x 36 564 km
Element number / age	56 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.0497° W
Lat			0.0857° S
Alt (km)		35 406.190

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
056 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H 38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°
055 02-04 01:45:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H 37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°
054 02/03 03:44:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H 36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°
053 02/02 09:41:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H 35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°
052 02/02 06:14:50 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,744[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,903[/COLOR][/B]  2,159 + 6.25H 35.24D  72.60°W  0.10°S  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## raoul5788

hancox said:


> Typical Valentine's Day!
> 
> Oh, sorry, wrong topic


TMI, TMI! :grin:


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...other than the peace of mind that D12 continues on its trek towards its final position and eventual activation without the drama that the Dish folks had with their last (failed) sat.


:righton: true!


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-05-2010 04:07:42
Orbit # at Epoch	46
Inclination		0.115
RA of A. Node		269.865
Eccentricity		0.0147891
Argument of Perigee	192.477
Revs per day		1.00197722
Period			23h 57m 09s (1437.15 min)
Semi-major axis		42 186 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 183 x 36 431 km
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)

Lon			74.9767° W
Lat			0.0521° S
Alt (km)		35 217.290

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
057 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H 38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°
056 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H 38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°
055 02-04 01:45:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H 37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°
054 02/03 03:44:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H 36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°
053 02/02 09:41:31 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,715[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,952[/COLOR][/B]  2,237 + 3.44H 35.39D  71.98°W  0.09°S  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## jefbal99

Might we be under the 1000km marker tomorrow for the gap? I'm gettin giddy


----------



## Jeremy W

jefbal99 said:


> Might we be under the 1000km marker tomorrow for the gap? I'm gettin giddy


If it keeps going at the rate it has been, it's a possibility.


----------



## smiddy

It will happen and soon!


----------



## P Smith

In one week !


----------



## smiddy

But that point will be weak! We're still months before we have the "full monty" as they say.


----------



## dgsiiinc

A milestone is a milestone!


----------



## gregftlaud

So how long approximately will it be....after D12 gets into "place" will we start getting more HD channels? Weeks? Months?


----------



## litzdog911

gregftlaud said:


> So how long approximately will it be....after D12 gets into "place" will we start getting more HD channels? Weeks? Months?


Greg,
Did you read the first post in this thread?


----------



## Sixto

gregftlaud said:


> So how long approximately will it be....after D12 gets into "place" will we start getting more HD channels? Weeks? Months?


3-4 weeks at 76 (for testing).
2-3 weeks drift to 103.
1-3 weeks to "live".

assuming all goes well.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> 3-4 weeks at 76 (for testing).
> 2-3 weeks drift to 103.
> 1-3 weeks to "live".
> 
> assuming all goes well.


Right about Tax Day?!?


----------



## rey_1178

wmb said:


> Right about Tax Day?!?


sounds right,yep


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-06-2010 04:31:01
Orbit # at Epoch	47
Inclination		0.122
RA of A. Node		271.550
Eccentricity		0.0119277
Argument of Perigee	189.214
Revs per day		1.00055571
Period			23h 59m 12s (1439.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 225 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 344 x 36 351 km
Element number / age	58 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.2259° W
Lat			0.0615° S
Alt (km)		35 399.290

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
058 02-06 04:31:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H 39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°
057 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H 38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°
056 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H 38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°
055 02-04 01:45:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H 37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°
054 02/03 03:44:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,739[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,886[/COLOR][/B]  2,147 +18.05H 36.14D  74.53°W  0.04°S  0.11°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

With this latest update (#58), 2/9/2010 would be the arrival date based on every D12 historical indicator (current km/hour rate, last 10-TLE rate, last 20-TLE rate), but do expect it to take longer then that based on D10 and D11.

Great progress. Almost below 1k gap.

It took D11 8 days to get the final 995km gap, and it took D10 a little longer.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> With this latest update (#58), 2/9/2010 would be the arrival date based on every D12 historical indicator (current km/hour rate, last 10-TLE rate, last 20-TLE rate), but do expect it to take longer then that based on D10 and D11.
> 
> Great progress. Almost below 1k gap.
> 
> It took D11 8 days to get the final 995km gap, and it took D10 a little longer.


In my non-scientific mind...and based on the outstanding reports here...it appears all is well with D12, on schedule, and they are in the "first stop position-tweaking" stage of the journey. 

This is amazing stuff, even to us non-rocket-scientists.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-06-2010 15:25:01
Orbit # at Epoch	47
Inclination		0.123
RA of A. Node		274.368
Eccentricity		0.0100803
Argument of Perigee	188.697
Revs per day		1.00310765
Period			23h 55m 32s (1435.53 min)
Semi-major axis		42 154 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 351 x 36 201 km
Element number / age	59 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.8359° W
Lat			0.0294° N
Alt (km)		36 195.710

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
059 02-06 15:25:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H 39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°
058 02-06 04:31:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H 39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°
057 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H 38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°
056 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H 38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°
055 02-04 01:45:07 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,004[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,635[/COLOR][/B]  1,631 +22.01H 37.06D  75.92°W  0.02°N  0.14°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

This latest update (#59) mostly got D12 centered again. Was off center by 62km high, now just 10km low, and nice to see the under 1k gap.

Fun to watch ...


----------



## jefbal99

Awesome, its so close I can almost taste it...


----------



## P Smith

From standpoint of a person who observing RF signals, it's remind me Polaroid days - first stage of film developing ... 'Picture' is coming ... For rest - like drywall painting watching


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## msmith198025

Been a while since I have been over here, but I have to say, this thread is far more informative on D12 than any I have seen on any other site. Thanks guys, and keep up the good work


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-07-2010 05:42:49
Orbit # at Epoch	48
Inclination		0.102
RA of A. Node		261.164
Eccentricity		0.0097569
Argument of Perigee	208.295
Revs per day		1.00241901
Period			23h 56m 31s (1436.52 min)
Semi-major axis		42 173 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 384 x 36 206 km
Element number / age	60 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.1791° W
Lat			0.0768° S
Alt (km)		35 468.530

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
060 02-07 05:42:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H 40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°
059 02-06 15:25:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H 39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°
058 02-06 04:31:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H 39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°
057 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H 38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°
056 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,030[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,564[/COLOR][/B]  1,534 +26.38H 38.16D  75.05°W  0.09°S  0.18°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-07-2010 07:47:14
Orbit # at Epoch	48
Inclination		0.126
RA of A. Node		275.596
Eccentricity		0.0084813
Argument of Perigee	186.968
Revs per day		1.00074119
Period			23h 58m 56s (1438.93 min)
Semi-major axis		42 220 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 484 x 36 200 km
Element number / age	61 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.2181° W
Lat			0.1066° S
Alt (km)		35 752.980

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
061 02-07 07:47:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H 40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°
060 02-07 05:42:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H 40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°
059 02-06 15:25:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H 39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°
058 02-06 04:31:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H 39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°
057 02-05 04:07:42 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,183[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,431[/COLOR][/B]  1,248 + 0.00H 38.16D  74.98°W  0.05°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Things are really getting close to having D12 in place for the 76 position testing....it appears that the temporary park will indeed begin this coming week.


----------



## MrDad0330

Do you think the solar panels have deployed or will they wait until its on total geo?
I guess thats a big one for this sat to really come alive.


----------



## DodgerKing




----------



## DodgerKing

Decided to add some graphs of the difference between Apogee and Perigee


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Love those graphs DodgerKing!

The one with the Apogee/Perigee convergence really shows how close this is to the park location. The comparison graph to D11 and D10 also are very cool.

Thanks.


----------



## P Smith

DK, if you could add second scale at right and make it with 0 level equal 35,786, then one graph would show absolute values and relative also - how close D12 to GSO altitude.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> DK, if you could add second scale at right and make it with 0 level equal 35,786, then one graph would show absolute values and relative also - how close D12 to GSO altitude.


I agree;

Thanks-a'-much DK for all these informative graphs, in particular the newest illustrating the perigee-apogee differences.

I guess to summarize D12's "space odyssey"  up to this point in time has been all the way from a relatively high inclination super-synchronous orbit placed in shortly after its final injection to GTO from the Breeze-M. To a stage of substantially raising perigee while lowering inclination. Then on to a phase of primarily lowering inclination to near zero with comparatively small increases in perigee.

Thereafter to a portion of mainly raising perigee in earnest roughly to a point of equal difference below the Clarke belt from apogee above it.

And now to this present final stage of slowly converging both apogee and perigee together toward the Clarke belt at 35,786 Km.

All these stages following apogee's movement to 40,000 Km at the super-synchronous one and before convergence were done while holding apogee constant at approximately 40,000 Km.

All a very interesting path toward an eventual geo-stationery orbit at 76° W indeed.


----------



## P Smith

There is also inclination correction interleaved with apo/perigee changes.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-08-2010 04:03:13
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination		0.130
RA of A. Node		278.849
Eccentricity		0.0058867
Argument of Perigee	182.336
Revs per day		1.00107506
Period			23h 58m 27s (1438.45 min)
Semi-major axis		42 211 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 584 x 36 081 km
Element number / age	62 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.1196° W
Lat			0.0405° S
Alt (km)		35 600.340

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
062 02-08 04:03:13 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,584[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,081[/COLOR][/B]    497 +20.27H 41.15D  76.12°W  0.04°S  0.13°
061 02-07 07:47:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H 40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°
060 02-07 05:42:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H 40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°
059 02-06 15:25:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H 39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°
058 02-06 04:31:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,344[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,351[/COLOR][/B]  1,007 +24.39H 39.17D  75.23°W  0.06°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## seern

So much for that slow and steady when under 1000. :joy:


----------



## Hoosier205

What will it mean when the "Gap" number has reached 0? Does that mean it has reached its testing location?


----------



## oldfantom

Hoosier205 said:


> What will it mean when the "Gap" number has reached 0? Does that mean it has reached its testing location?


yes


----------



## ctaranto

oldfantom said:


> yes


Wouldn't it be that AND at 76 degrees?

/c


----------



## Jeremy W

ctaranto said:


> Wouldn't it be that AND at 76 degrees?


Unless somebody screws up, it'll be at 76 degrees when the gap reaches zero.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Unless somebody screws up, it'll be at 76 degrees when the gap reaches zero.


Exactly.


----------



## Hoosier205

Thank you to all of those who weighed in on my question.


----------



## P Smith

ctaranto said:


> Wouldn't it be that AND at 76 degrees?
> 
> /c


Add to that inclination equal 0.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Add to that inclination equal 0.


Inclination won't ever equal zero exactly. It might get a couple orders of magnitude smaller than it is now, but since the satellite will have to bias itself toward the NWUF for BSS spotbeam testing anyway, so long as it has a lock on the carrier beacon, inclination won't have to be as low as would ideally be in regular operation.


----------



## Hoosier205

Any guesses for which day that gap reaches zero?


----------



## Jeremy W

Hoosier205 said:


> Any guesses for which day that gap reaches zero?


Wednesday.


----------



## Sixto

Hoosier205 said:


> Any guesses for which day that gap reaches zero?


Recent models have indicated 2/9, but final tuning at the end usually takes a few days.

D11 average (5.5km/hr): 2/9/10 11:46am

Last TLE (perigee) average (4.93km/hr): 2/9/10 3:59pm

Last-10 TLE (perigee) average (5.92km/hr): 2/9/10 9:09am

Last-20 TLE (perigee) average (5.51 km/hr): 2/9/10 11:42am

Last-20 TLE (gap) average: 2/9/10 4:30pm

Most likely by end of week for sure.


----------



## Sixto

For comparison:


Code:


[B]
	D10	D10	D10	D11	D11	D11	D12	D12	D12
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Gap[/U][/B]
29	34923	36787	1864	30615	41065	10450	33948	37410	3462
30	                 				34196	37445	3249
31	35603	36177	574	30883	40871	9988
32	35644	36057	413	31115	40623	9508	34409	37150	2741
33	35630	36051	421	31309	40411	9102	34419	37149	2730
34	35663	35964	301	31369	40366	8997	34450	37155	2705
35	35740	35919	179				34715	36952	2237
36	35737	35864	127	31742	39996	8254	34739	36886	2147
37	35739	35876	137	31866	39844	7978	35004	36635	1631
38	35742	35809	67				35030	36564	1534
39							35344	36351	1007
40	35784	35789	5	32302	39428	7126	35484	36200	716
41	35784	35787	3	32285	39398	7113	35584	36081	497
...
61				35352	36444	1092
62				35350	36345	995
63				35496	36217	721
64				35600	36052	452
65				35739	35884	145
66				35747	35804	57
67				35786	35792	6
68						
69				35785	35789	4
70				35786	35788	2


----------



## P Smith

Any chance to include inclination into the comparison chart ? Seems to me each apogee/perigee correction followed by inclination correction.

Non zero inclination would be a source of 'wobulation' of the sat and would require additional fuel consumption to keep the 'bus' and antennas and solar panels orientation.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Any chance to include inclination into the comparison chart ? Seems to me each apogee/perigee correction followed by inclination correction.


not easily.  wasn't tracking inclination last time.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> source of *wobulation*


I don't think that word means what you think it means...


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Non zero inclination would be a source of wobulation of the sat and would require additional fuel consumption to keep the 'bus' and antennas and solar panels orientation.


Not necessarily. If the 702 bus uses control moment gyros (and it probably does) the thrusters only have to be used for momentum dumping. And even it doesn't use CMGs, the BSS spotbeam footprints are certainly large enough to handle small offsets from nominal inclination.


----------



## P Smith

Could we calculate movement of one spot-beam (radius ~200 mi) on Earth surface if inclination is say 0.1 degree ?


----------



## LameLefty

Go right ahead. It's an exercise in trigonometry. However, since Directv has already said in FCC filings that they'll be biasing the entire satellite bus to aim the beams at the uplink facility, the inclination doesn't matter much at all.


----------



## Sixto

D11 inclination at end (1000 to 0 gap) was .04-.06 every TLE.


----------



## P Smith

Well, then if inclination is not zero, the sat orientation must be correcting all the time for holding spot-beam to particuar area (could be +/- 25 mi).
[By quick thought 0.1 degree incliantion could move spot-beam for 100 mi.]


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Inclination won't ever equal zero exactly. It might get a couple orders of magnitude smaller than it is now, *but since the satellite will have to bias itself toward the NWUF for BSS spotbeam testing anyway, so long as it has a lock on the carrier beacon, inclination won't have to be as low as would ideally be in regular operation.*


Just a note: 

IIRC Directv will be biasing D12's orientation to perform "gain transfer testing" for both its Ka band spotbeam and BSS payloads.

The Ka spotbeams during their testing phase will be successively positioned over the Castle Rock, CO. uplink facility. And BSS over the NWUF at Moxee, WA.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Well, then if inclination is not zero, the sat orientation must be correcting all the time for holding spot-beam to particuar area (could be +/- 25 mi).
> [By quick thought 0.1 degree incliantion could move spot-beam for 100 mi.]


Yep. That's what thrusters and CMGs are for.

Now, that said, inclination will drop by about one order of magnitude (a leading zero after the decimal place) before D12 settles down into it's nominal operating configuration.


----------



## Hoosier205

I just have to say this yet again...

Thank you and kudos to everyone who contributes information and explanations in this thread. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, but reading this thread at times makes me second guess whether or not I have suffered from some sort of brain damage recently. I just wait on one person to post something and another person to translate that for people like me. 

Thank you once again.


----------



## slimoli

Hoosier205 said:


> I just have to say this yet again...
> 
> Thank you and kudos to everyone who contributes information and explanations in this thread. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, but reading this thread at times makes me second guess whether or not I have suffered from some sort of brain damage recently. I just wait on one person to post something and another person to translate that for people like me.
> 
> Thank you once again.


I second that. What these guys are doing (for free!) is better than attending a University.


----------



## Jeremy W

slimoli said:


> I second that. What these guys are doing (for free!) is better than attending a University.


Thirded. These threads have taught me pretty much everything I know about orbital mechanics.


----------



## davring

It amazes me as well all the science, engineering and mathematics involved and the folks here who devote so much time and effort to make it available and understandable to us commoners. Maybe these same people can help Toyota figure out how to make cars stop when they are supposed to


----------



## Sixto

this next TLE hopefully is a mistake.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-08-2010 10:07:14
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination		0.165
RA of A. Node		302.578
Eccentricity		0.0193070
Argument of Perigee	142.123
Revs per day		1.00239710
Period			23h 56m 33s (1436.55 min)
Semi-major axis		42 174 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 981 x 36 610 km
Element number / age	63 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.8137° W
Lat			0.1494° S
Alt (km)		36 303.040

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
063 02-08 10:07:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,981[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,610[/COLOR][/B]  1,629 + 6.07H 41.41D  75.81°W  0.15°S  0.17°
062 02-08 04:03:13 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,584[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,081[/COLOR][/B]    497 +20.27H 41.15D  76.12°W  0.04°S  0.13°
061 02-07 07:47:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H 40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°
060 02-07 05:42:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H 40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°
059 02-06 15:25:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,351[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,201[/COLOR][/B]    850 +10.90H 39.63D  75.84°W  0.03°N  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> this next TLE hopefully is a mistake.


Yeah... that would be unfortunate...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> this next TLE hopefully is a mistake.


:eek2::eek2::eek2:

Hopefully yes... a mistake.!!!!


----------



## Sixto

have double and triple checked. will now wait for the next one.


----------



## Hoosier205

Sixto said:


> have double and triple checked. will now wait for the next one.


Where do you get that information BTW?


----------



## LameLefty

That's an odd one, that's for sure. It's either a mistake (tracking/data reduction error in calculating the element set), a spacecraft issue, or a collision-avoidance maneuver.

Of these three, I rank them in that order in terms of probabilities. As for the first, we've seen oddball element sets every few days so it wouldn't be much of a surprise. As to the second, the Boeing 702 bus is very well known and very reliable, historically. After all, this is the fifth 702 Directv has in its constellation (SW1 & 2, D10, D11 & D12). Anything can happen, of course, but maybe I'm just an optimist at heart. 

The third possibility is the least likely, for a couple of reasons: the only things up there that CAN be avoided are already known, tracked and plotted by the spacecraft controllers in planning the launch trajectory and orbit-raising maneuvers. Most anything else is basically too small to be tracked from that far away so if there's something to run into, it won't be seen until it's too late. :grin:


----------



## LameLefty

Hoosier205 said:


> Where do you get that information BTW?


The U.S. Space Command tracks tens of thousands of objects in earth orbit. When the orbital parameters change enough to be tracked and have the new orbit derived, Space Command publishes updated orbital element sets.

For satellites "parked" in GSO, the elements might not change enough for a new element set more often than once a week or once a month (and even then the new element set will be very, very similar to the previous one). For a maneuvering satellite, the elements might change several times a day, presuming Space Command has enough data to track it.


----------



## raoul5788

Hoosier205 said:


> I just have to say this yet again...
> 
> Thank you and kudos to everyone who contributes information and explanations in this thread. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, but reading this thread at times makes me second guess whether or not I have suffered from some sort of brain damage recently. I just wait on one person to post something and another person to translate that for people like me.
> 
> Thank you once again.


I agree with everything you have said, except I know when my brain damage occured, during the 60's and 70's!


----------



## loudo

Jeremy W said:


> Thirded. These threads have taught me pretty much everything I know about orbital mechanics.


No doubt, it is great, just sitting back and reading this thread, is teaching us a lot about orbits. My only previous experience was picking up signals from polar orbiting weather satellites, and software converting them to pictures on my computer screen.


----------



## ATARI

I feel both smarter and dumber whenever I read this thread.


----------



## jefbal99

Holy crap, i really hope that TLE is a screw up on the calculation and not a problem with the satellite

Edit in: its from 5am ET today, hopefully we see a correction posted soon


----------



## jefbal99

Question to the satellite guru's out there, doesn't DirecTV have to file paperwork with the SEC if they have a major problem like with a large investment. Something like an 8K form?

I'm trying to remember back from when Dish Network lost AMC-14


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

Hoosier205 said:


> Where do you get that information BTW?


I think it was a mix up. If you check www.n2yo.com/... it shows it currently being much better off if I'm reading it right. I'm no scientest though so I could be way wrong. Seems they offer live tracking too...


----------



## jefbal99

Sgt. Slaughter said:


> I think it was a mix up. If you check www.n2yo.com/... it shows it currently being much better off if I'm reading it right. I'm no scientest though so I could be way wrong. Seems they offer live tracking too...


n2yo is using older data than space-track.org. Space-track.org publishes the TLEs, then n2yo picks them up eventually. During D11, n2yo was found to be many days behind...

Their current TLE is update 62, the odd ball from today is update 63...


----------



## slimoli

There goes my Travel CH HD....


----------



## P Smith

slimoli said:


> There goes my Travel CH HD....


Here is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=170082 - specifically for you !


----------



## slimoli

P Smith said:


> Here is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=170082 - specifically for you !


It was meant to be a joke.


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

jefbal99 said:


> n2yo is using older data than space-track.org. Space-track.org publishes the TLEs, then n2yo picks them up eventually. During D11, n2yo was found to be many days behind...
> 
> Their current TLE is update 62, the odd ball from today is update 63...


They say they have real time tracking though if you click the link to track it it gives you the #'s updating each sec. http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


----------



## Jeremy W

Sgt. Slaughter said:


> They say they have real time tracking though if you click the link to track it it gives you the #'s updating each sec.


Those numbers are simply extrapolated from the latest TLE they have loaded into their system. They don't have any more information than we have in this thread.


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

Jeremy W said:


> Those numbers are simply extrapolated from the latest TLE they have loaded into their system. They don't have any more information than we have in this thread.


Take your word for it. No idea they were estimating the numbers for the real time tracker there. 
anyway like I said before I'm no scientist and could deff be wrong.

Would be interesting to know why the data changed so much. I know the reasons it could of explained it but the actual reason would be interesting.


----------



## oldfantom

Sgt. Slaughter said:


> Take your word for it. No idea they were estimating the numbers for the real time tracker there.
> anyway like I said before I'm no scientist and could deff be wrong.
> 
> Would be interesting to know why the data changed so much. I know the reasons it could of explained it but the actual reason would be interesting.


somewhere in the last ten pages, there was a really good explanation of the whole tle process and why it is an estimation. It made my head spin backwards recalling things from calculus calculating slopes as they approach infinity and such. Dang good reason to be a psych major in college. That and all the rich blonde girls in my classes.

#2580 http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2351498&postcount=2580 Credit to the author: LameLefty


----------



## macmantis

The TLE is available and it is seems to correct the previous and the gap to the final position is now 222km.

MacMantis


----------



## LameLefty

Code:


Name			Directv-12 064
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-02-09 06:24:01
Orbit # at Epoch	50
Inclination		0.118
RA of A. Node		273.878
Eccentricity		0.0026320
Argument of Perigee	189.812
Revs per day		1.00269620
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 898 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		55.377
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	64 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-09-2010 06:24:01
Orbit # at Epoch	50
Inclination		0.118
RA of A. Node		273.878
Eccentricity		0.0026320
Argument of Perigee	189.812
Revs per day		1.00269620
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 898 km
Element number / age	64 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.8976° W
Lat			0.0866° S
Alt (km)		35 723.440

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
064 02-09 06:24:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,676[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,898[/COLOR][/B]    222 +20.28H 42.25D  75.90°W  0.09°S  0.12°
063 02-08 10:07:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,981[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,610[/COLOR][/B]  1,629 + 6.07H 41.41D  75.81°W  0.15°S  0.17°
062 02-08 04:03:13 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,584[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,081[/COLOR][/B]    497 +20.27H 41.15D  76.12°W  0.04°S  0.13°
061 02-07 07:47:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H 40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°
060 02-07 05:42:49 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,384[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,206[/COLOR][/B]    822 +14.30H 40.22D  75.18°W  0.08°S  0.10°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Nice!
Gap is only 222.


----------



## Sixto

FHSPSU67 said:


> Nice!
> Gap is only 222.


Yep, all is well with the D12 world again.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep, all is well with the D12 world again.


The optimist in me is validated.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:



> The optimist in me is validated.


LL, I wish I had your optimisim, glad to see it was a data or calculation hiccup and not a problem with the bird.

Could we be parked today? That TLE is from roughly 1:30am ET today, they might have another move or two in them


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Hope those solar panels open ok.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Could we be parked today? That TLE is from roughly 1:30am ET today, they might have another move or two in them


Anything is possible, but past history would say it will take a few days.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

TheRatPatrol said:


> Hope those solar panels open ok.


Yup - that's *one of *the next major milestones within the list of tests once its parked.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yup - that's *one of *the next major milestones within the list of tests once its parked.


When the satellite is drifted from 76W to 103W, will they panels stay open or be brought back in?


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> When the satellite is drifted from 76W to 103W, will they panels stay open or be brought back in?


I'm fairly sure they're open and I believe they have been (at least partially) for awhile. From Boeing's fact sheet about XIPS on the 602 and 702 satellites . . .



> The Boeing 702 offers the additional option of XIPS orbit raising. Using XIPS to augment transfer orbit further reduces the amount of chemical propellant loaded. Larger payloads can thus be accommodated, with greater flexibility in the choice and use of a launch vehicle.* Chemical propellant is used to place the satellite into a supersynchronous elliptical transfer orbit, and pre-programmed XIPS maneuvers are used to circularize the orbit and position the satellite in its final orbit.*


http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


----------



## DodgerKing

Do graphs when I get home from work.

Looks like this will be the last of the graphs that show every TLE since these show conversion. I will add one that starts in Feb that shows even more detail


----------



## Cable_X

Won't be long now!!!! 

Everyone, thanks for the continous updates for us, non-rocket scientists.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Anything is possible, but past history would say it will take a few days.


In my mind, I imagine that the satellite has to start firing a thrust in the opposite direction of the current motion to stop the momentum. That thrust would not be a single firing to stop but a gradual braking. Does this conform to the reality?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DodgerKing said:


> Do graphs when I get home from work.
> 
> Looks like this will be the last of the graphs that show every TLE since these show conversion. I will add one that starts in Feb that shows even more detail


Thanks for doing those graphs. It really helps to quickly visualize what's going on...plus some interesting info too. 

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> In my mind, I imagine that the satellite has to start firing a thrust in the opposite direction of the current motion to stop the momentum. That thrust would not be a single firing to stop but a gradual braking. Does this conform to the reality?


Not really. Orbital mechanics is VERY counter-intuitive.

If you thrust in the "forward" direction, you will speed up and thus raise the orbit. That, in turn, creates a slower apparent ground track. If you thrust in the opposite direction to slow down, the orbit will get lower but the apparent ground speed will increase.

Basically, all orbital maneuvers are just speeding up and slowing down to change the shape of the orbit in specific ways, and rate at which the spacecraft is approaching or receding from a given point (which, you must remember, is also moving - 76ºW isn't a fixed spot in space: it's moving around at the same rate as the Earth rotates).


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-09-2010 12:18:14
Orbit # at Epoch	50
Inclination		0.119
RA of A. Node		276.968
Eccentricity		0.0025914
Argument of Perigee	187.683
Revs per day		1.00268234
Period			23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 678 x 35 897 km
Element number / age	65 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9712° W
Lat			0.0502° S
Alt (km)		35 874.710

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
065 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 5.90H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
064 02-09 06:24:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,676[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,898[/COLOR][/B]    222 +20.28H 42.25D  75.90°W  0.09°S  0.12°
063 02-08 10:07:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,981[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,610[/COLOR][/B]  1,629 + 6.07H 41.41D  75.81°W  0.15°S  0.17°
062 02-08 04:03:13 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,584[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,081[/COLOR][/B]    497 +20.27H 41.15D  76.12°W  0.04°S  0.13°
061 02-07 07:47:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,484[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,200[/COLOR][/B]    716 + 2.07H 40.31D  75.22°W  0.11°S  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## jefbal99

TLE's are fast and furious today



Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10040.51267100 -.00000252  00000-0  10000-3 0   661
2 36131 000.1187 276.3842 0025967 188.1513 143.3274 01.00268444   509


----------



## smiddy

Interesting! Looking to get closer still...come on big DirecTV - 12, you can do it!


----------



## Jeremy W

jefbal99 said:


> TLE's are fast and furious today


That's the one that Sixto just posted.


----------



## jefbal99

Jeremy W said:


> That's the one that Sixto just posted.


No, its update 66, Sixto's is update 65 

in the TLE, first line, last data set, first two numbers are the update number

Found out I still have Orbitron loaded on this laptop



Code:


Name	#36131
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2010-02-09 12:18:14
Orbit # at Epoch	50
Inclination	0.119
RA of A. Node	276.384
Eccentricity	0.0025967
Argument of Perigee	188.151
Revs per day	1.00268444
Period	23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis	42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 678 x 35 897 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	143.327
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	66 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> Not really. Orbital mechanics is VERY counter-intuitive.


Fortunately for us satellite TV customers, you rocket scientists have had about 50 years to figure out how this stuff works.

I design HVAC control systems for a living. When you command the hot water valve open, you expect the discharge temperature to go up, and vice versa. When the opposite happens, you really scratch your head to figure out why. It's even more of a head scratcher when nothing happens. Tuning a PID loop is very challenging when the process variable doesn't do what you expect it to do, but troubleshooting those loops is part of my job.

I'll leave the orbital mechanics to you smart guys.


----------



## Jeremy W

jefbal99 said:


> No, its update 66, Sixto's is update 65


I see. But aside from that number, the information is exactly the same.


----------



## P Smith

bb37 said:


> Fortunately for us satellite TV customers, you rocket scientists have had about 50 years to figure out how this stuff works.
> 
> I design HVAC control systems for a living. When you command the hot water valve open, you expect the discharge temperature to go up, and vice versa. When the opposite happens, you really scratch your head to figure out why. It's even more of a head scratcher when nothing happens. Tuning a PID loop is very challenging when the process variable doesn't do what you expect it to do, but troubleshooting those loops is part of my job.
> 
> I'll leave the orbital mechanics to you smart guys.


That's why all control of those flying object based on feedback/loops and telemetry.
[You HVAC system missing probes at least to avoid such scratching heads and guesses . I know it would raise cost, but that's the price for sat or rockets].


----------



## jefbal99

Jeremy W said:


> I see. But aside from that number, the information is exactly the same.


The AxP and time stamp are the same, however, the information in the 2nd line of the TLE is different. I'm guessing that its a correction of calculation or something similar.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> I see. But aside from that number, the information is exactly the same.


The orbital parameters we most care about are the same (apogee/perigee), but there are some minor differences "down in the trenches" that matter to the spacecraft controllers (check out the numbers in some of the individual elements). But since the epoch time is the same as the previous element set, it means that this data is probably just "massaged" to remove an erroneous bit of tracking data, or some additional data points were added into the analysis to refine the previous element set.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> That's why all control of those flying object based on feedback/loops and telemetry.
> [You HVAC system missing probes at least to avoid such scratching heads and guesses . I know it would raise cost, but that's the price for sat or rockets].


A thermostat is a feedback control mechanism. Add in a flame sensor, some current or resistance sensors and voila! Same principles, different applications.


----------



## P Smith

Actually a thermocouple, not a thermostat as a probe would be the device for obtain feedback.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Actually a thermocouple, not a thermostat as a probe would be the device for obtain feedback.


Which is why a thermostat would use a thermocouple as its probe when providing the control side...


----------



## P Smith

Thermostat is close loop system and not suppose to use inernal thermocouple for provide feedback to high level, to that HVAC.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Yea, and when you turn the thermostat up the heat comes on.


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> Yea, and when you turn the thermostat up the heat comes on.


Only in the winter. In the summer, the air conditioning turns off. It's crazy!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Patiently awaiting an update, and the magic graphs to go with it.


----------



## DodgerKing

This will be the last time I post a graph showing all TLE's as it already appears to merge in this graph.









This will also be the last post of the graph of this range as well. I will be adding a graph that has Feb readings only next time









This range will still continue









This is the last post of the comparisons of ALL TLE's.









The last post of this range as well. Next graph will have Feb comparisons only









This range will still continue


----------



## jefbal99

Very nice DK


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Great work DodgerKing.

Looks like your graphs, along with the numbers and Sixto reports point to a 2/10 "76 arrival", just as you experts forecast a bit ago.


----------



## Hoosier205

To those of you who know what the hell any of this means: How will you know when transfer of control goes from Boeing to DirecTV? In basic terms...what will you see that will signify that?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Hoosier205 said:


> To those of you who know what the hell any of this means: How will you know when transfer of control goes from Boeing to DirecTV? In basic terms...what will you see that will signify that?


The best indicator--a press release. 

Unfortunately we really can't tell from the ground without knowing the particulars of the contract testing details. It might be when testing is done at 76° or it has arrived at 103° (and perhaps after a little testing there?)

I think, but am not certain because it has been a long time since I've looked at any parts of the contracts, Boeing retains control until arrival at 103°. Please don't take that as gospel tho. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-10-2010 03:13:02
Orbit # at Epoch	51
Inclination		0.118
RA of A. Node		273.655
Eccentricity		0.0026125
Argument of Perigee	190.861
Revs per day		1.00268480
Period			23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 677 x 35 898 km
Element number / age	67 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.1156° W
Lat			0.0287° S
Alt (km)		35 677.540

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
067 02-10 03:13:02 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H 43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°
066 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 0.00H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
065 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 5.90H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
064 02-09 06:24:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,676[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,898[/COLOR][/B]    222 +20.28H 42.25D  75.90°W  0.09°S  0.12°
063 02-08 10:07:14 [B][COLOR="Red"]34,981[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]36,610[/COLOR][/B]  1,629 + 6.07H 41.41D  75.81°W  0.15°S  0.17°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## skpd

so what is the aproximate "Live" date based on this? (how long did it take D10 and D11 to go Live from this point?)


----------



## bjlc

Hey.. lets get this thing turned on.. 

its been two years of slugging and waiting and hoping and what not..

Turn the blasted thing on and give us more channels.. you know like the TV Commercial says. 200 hd channels..

You say you have them.. LETS SEE THEM.. 

TURN THE THING ON.. 

and then 


when is the next one coming?


----------



## skpd

skpd said:


> so what is the aproximate "Live" date based on this? (how long did it take D10 and D11 to go Live from this point?)


well based on *THIS* it took a little over 3 months, from the launch date, for D11 to start braodcasting the new HD channels.

acording to Sixto, D12 is moving a bit faster, in comparison and taken into consideration the 12/28/09 launch date it's probably safe to say we will see some new channels in the next month or so. would you say?


----------



## Sixto

skpd said:


> so what is the aproximate "Live" date based on this? (how long did it take D10 and D11 to go Live from this point?)


See post#1.

April.


----------



## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> Hey.. lets get this thing turned on..


They're working on it, I assure you.



> its been two years of slugging and waiting and hoping and what not..


Um, no. It's been quite a bit longer than that since D10/11/12 were ordered. But it's been only about 31 months since D10 was launched, and less than 23 months since D11 was launched.



> Turn the blasted thing on and give us more channels.. you know like the TV Commercial says. 200 hd channels..


They're working on it. And the commercial actually uses words like "... up to 200 HD channels ..."



> You say you have them.. LETS SEE THEM..


No, they say they will have to capacity for them.



> TURN THE THING ON..


Stop shouting.



> and then
> 
> when is the next one coming?


Directv has authorizations for three more BSS band satellites but it'll be a few years. And even if BSS is in their national bandwidth plans (and not for just small-market locals and niche programming like internationals), we'll probably all need dish/LNB and/or receiver upgrades anyway. Take some deep breaths and relax.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> 3-4 weeks at 76 (for testing).
> 2-3 weeks drift to 103.
> 1-3 weeks to "live".
> 
> assuming all goes well.





skpd said:


> well based on *THIS* it took a little over 3 months, from the launch date, for D11 to start braodcasting the new HD channels.
> 
> acording to Sixto, D12 is moving a bit faster, in comparison and taken into consideration the 12/28/09 launch date it's probably safe to say we will see some new channels in the next month or so. would you say?


April.


----------



## skpd

Sixto said:


> See post#1.
> 
> April.


yeah, sorry, got carried away and missed that. thanks for all the info and the time you put into it to bring us all the updates.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Remember, it wasn't too long ago when we only had between 10 or 15 HD channels only? While we're now anticipating for more HD channels when D12 goes live, let us all wait with a little more patience. For me, I've got many HD channels I wanted (especially for SyFy) and yes, I do want more HD channels (TravelHD and more). I can wait another couple of months. Can't you too?


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-10-2010 12:58:55
Orbit # at Epoch	51
Inclination		0.131
RA of A. Node		274.640
Eccentricity		0.0017830
Argument of Perigee	184.660
Revs per day		1.00398620
Period			23h 54m 16s (1434.27 min)
Semi-major axis		42 129 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 826 km
Element number / age	68 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9043° W
Lat			0.0299° S
Alt (km)		35 821.150

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
068 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°
067 02-10 03:13:02 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H 43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°
066 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 0.00H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
065 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 5.90H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
064 02-09 06:24:01 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,676[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,898[/COLOR][/B]    222 +20.28H 42.25D  75.90°W  0.09°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## smiddy

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Remember, it wasn't too long ago when we only had between 10 or 15 HD channels only? While we're now anticipating for more HD channels when D12 goes live, let us all wait with a little more patience. For me, I've got many HD channels I wanted (especially for SyFy) and yes, I do want more HD channels (TravelHD and more). I can wait another couple of months. Can't you too?


Yes, I can! I am a bit antsy but I can hold out a little while longer, so that DIRECTV gives us a stellar product (as always). This means there is testing to do and tweaking to do, then, when it is ready, they'll let us know, you know?


----------



## GP245

Then why can't Direct "wait another couple of months" to raise our rates?


----------



## smiddy

GP245 said:


> Then why can't Direct "wait another couple of months" to raise our rates?


Because...:lol:


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> <placeholder>
> 
> 35 676 x 35 826 km


gained 70 km on Apogee


----------



## LameLefty

Eeeeeeexcellent!


----------



## freerein100

Looks like more people are starting to do the peepee dance for more HD..LOL


----------



## Garry

GP245 said:


> Then why can't Direct "wait another couple of months" to raise our rates?


I wonder, is Boeing waiting until another couple of months to get paid?


----------



## BlackHitachi

Garry said:


> I wonder, is Boeing waiting until another couple of months to get paid?


Probably not! They got paid from last years rate increase!


----------



## dettxw

Garry said:


> I wonder, is Boeing waiting until another couple of months to get paid?


Can't say what might be in the Contracts, but there is an on-orbit delivery yet to take place, so it is certainly possible that final payment will occur after that delivery.


----------



## Grydlok

freerein100 said:


> Looks like more people are starting to do the peepee dance for more HD..LOL


not really. I had all the channels before they probably will add and it's not much.


----------



## rey_1178

GP245 said:


> Then why can't Direct "wait another couple of months" to raise our rates?


:uglyhamme:thats:


----------



## loudo

GP245 said:


> Then why can't Direct "wait another couple of months" to raise our rates?


Because rate raises are an annual event, that we have all gotten used to. It would be like moving your birthday to another date. :lol:


----------



## azarby

:backtotop


----------



## Tom Robertson

From my distant recollection of the redacted contracts, Boeing was getting progress payments as milestones were reached. 

And I'm sure they were getting storage fees, rework payments, etc. 

And a last payment after launch, test, etc. (Tho I'm not sure how it all works with D12 which was a ground spare initially.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-10-2010 12:58:55
Orbit # at Epoch	51
Inclination		0.145
RA of A. Node		274.727
Eccentricity		0.0017823
Argument of Perigee	184.347
Revs per day		1.00400056
Period			23h 54m 15s (1434.25 min)
Semi-major axis		42 129 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 826 km
Element number / age	69 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9041° W
Lat			0.0338° S
Alt (km)		35 820.820

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
069 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x 35,826    150 + 0.00H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.14°
068 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°
067 02-10 03:13:02 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H 43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°
066 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 0.00H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°
065 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 5.90H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## P Smith

Inclination value corrected.


----------



## DodgerKing

It is getting to the point where all of the graphs appear to merge. The only way to see the finer details is to make my range and intervals much smaller. All of the graphs from his point on will be ones that start in Feb


----------



## Jared701

loudo said:


> Because rate raises are an annual event, that we have all gotten used to. It would be like moving your birthday to another date. :lol:


I thought their annual rate raise was usually later in February or in early March though? If I'm correct in that then it is like they moved the birthday.


----------



## bb37

DodgerKing said:


> It is getting to the point where all of the graphs appear to merge. The only way to see the finer details is to make my range and intervals much smaller. All of the graphs from his point on will be ones that start in Feb


If I was the one tuning this PID loop, I'd be a little nervous about the perigee graph tending to go in the wrong direction. I'm sure it will come back towards target, but it's interesting to watch the perturbations.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bb37 said:


> If I was the one tuning this PID loop, I'd be a little nervous about the perigee graph tending to go in the wrong direction. I'm sure it will come back towards target, but it's interesting to watch the perturbations.


I knida think they have it under control. From the looks of it we're probably talking about a delta of 10-15-ish km. Besides, the overall trend is toward the target altitude. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> I knida think they have it under control. From the looks of it we're probably talking about a delta of 10-15-ish km. Besides, the overall trend is toward the target altitude.
> 
> Mike


I suspect today's report and graph will be verrrrry interessssssting.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect today's report and graph will be verrrrry interessssssting.


I've been keeping an eye on Space-Track, waiting for update 70 to pop in, wish they had an email update feature when new TLEs are posted...


----------



## Ken984

New TLE


Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10 42.59197959  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   700
2 36131 000.1155 278.0232 0026124 191.3186 169.1724 01.00273928   536

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-02-11 14:12:27
Orbit # at Epoch	53
Inclination	0.116
RA of A. Node	278.023
Eccentricity	0.0026124
Argument of Perigee	191.319
Revs per day	1.00273928
Period	23h 56m 03s (1436.5 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 896 km

Looks like they made an inclination adjustment but the Apogee is back up as well.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-11-2010 14:12:27
Orbit # at Epoch	53
Inclination		0.116
RA of A. Node		278.023
Eccentricity		0.0026124
Argument of Perigee	191.319
Revs per day		1.00273928
Period			23h 56m 03s (1436.5 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 676 x 35 896 km
Element number / age	70 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0401° W
Lat			0.0002° N
Alt (km)		35 893.930

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
070 02-11 14:12:27 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,896[/COLOR][/B]    220 +25.23H 44.58D  76.04°W  0.00°S  0.12°
069 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x 35,826    150 + 0.00H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.14°
068 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°
067 02-10 03:13:02 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H 43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°
066 02-09 12:18:14 35,678 x 35,897    219 + 0.00H 42.50D  75.97°W  0.05°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

May be a few days as they tweak the final position.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-11-2010 14:33:27
Orbit # at Epoch	52
Inclination		0.132
RA of A. Node		276.013
Eccentricity		0.0018591
Argument of Perigee	89.323
Revs per day		1.00233915
Period			23h 56m 38s (1436.63 min)
Semi-major axis		42 175 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 719 x 35 876 km
Element number / age	71 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0546° W
Lat			0.0148° N
Alt (km)		35 784.520

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
071 02-11 14:33:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,719[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,876[/COLOR][/B]    157 +  .35H 44.59D  76.05°W  0.01°N  0.13°
070 02-11 14:12:27 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,896[/COLOR][/B]    220 +25.23H 44.58D  76.04°W  0.00°N  0.12°
069 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x 35,826    150 + 0.00H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.14°
068 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°
067 02-10 03:13:02 35,677 x 35,898    221 +14.91H 43.12D  76.12°W  0.03°S  0.12°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> May be a few days as they tweak the final position.


Maybe its like parallel parking...


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Maybe its like parallel parking...


Maybe they should have gotten a Lexus:sure:


----------



## netraa

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Maybe they should have gotten a Lexus:sure:


NO!!!!

if they'd gotten a lexus the bird would be passing the moon right about now with all rockets full blast till it runs out of fuel.

but, on a serious note..... thanks guys for burning the candle at both ends to keep us all updated on the progress.... be it what it may at times.


----------



## jefbal99

I wonder if update 71 is in the middle of a move and perhaps we might see another update later today with it closer to GSO


----------



## Sixto

Big News coming!


----------



## Sixto

Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841"This is to inform you that the DirecTV 12/RB-2A satelitte arrived at the 76° W.L. orbital location today. DirecTV anticipates that it will begin in-orbit testing ("IOT") of DirecTV-12 on the morning of February 13. Although the timing for IOT of DirecTV RB-2A is less definite, DirecTV currently anticipates that process will begin the morning of March 3. As the dates and times become more precise, DirecTV will provide that information to the affected parties as required under the two STAs."​


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841


WOW Great news! Thanks Sixto for all that you do.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841


What does "IOT" on March 3rd mean?


----------



## texasmoose

thelucky1 said:


> WOW Great news! Thanks Sixto for all that you do.


+1


----------



## Hoosier205

I was following along through the part about beginning IOT of D12 on 2/13. They lost me with the next part about IOT of RB-2A on 3/3. I don't know what RB-2A is or what that means.

IOT= in orbit testing correct?


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841"This is to inform you that the DirecTV 12/RB-2A satelitte arrived at the 76° W.L. orbital location today. DirecTV anticipates that it will begin in-orbit testing ("IOT") of DirecTV-12 on the morning of February 13. Although the timing for IOT of DirecTV RB-2A is less definite, DirecTV currently anticipates that process will begin the morning of March 3. As the dates and times become more precise, DirecTV will provide that information to the affected parties as required under the two STAs."​


Have added the text to the post.

WooHoo!


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> What does "IOT" on March 3rd mean?


D12 testing starts 2/13.

RB-2A (BSS) testing starts 3/3.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> D12 testing starts 2/13.
> 
> RB-2A (BSS) testing starts 3/3.


Thanks! All great news. :up:


----------



## sigma1914

Sixto said:


> D12 testing starts 2/13.
> 
> RB-2A (BSS) testing starts 3/3.


Can D12 give us HD while BSS is testing? I don't mind waiting, just curious.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Sixto said:


> Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841"This is to inform you that the DirecTV 12/RB-2A satelitte arrived at the 76° W.L. orbital location today. DirecTV anticipates that it will begin in-orbit testing ("IOT") of DirecTV-12 on the morning of February 13. Although the timing for IOT of DirecTV RB-2A is less definite, DirecTV currently anticipates that process will begin the morning of March 3. As the dates and times become more precise, DirecTV will provide that information to the affected partied as required under the two STAs."​


Is it appropriate to squeal with anticipation yet?


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Here you go ... http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799841"This is to inform you that the DirecTV 12/RB-2A satelitte arrived at the 76° W.L. orbital location today. DirecTV anticipates that it will begin in-orbit testing ("IOT") of DirecTV-12 on the morning of February 13. Although the timing for IOT of DirecTV RB-2A is less definite, DirecTV currently anticipates that process will begin the morning of March 3. As the dates and times become more precise, DirecTV will provide that information to the affected partied as required under the two STAs."​


Awesome, time for the topic title to be updated again


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Have added the text to the post.
> 
> WooHoo!


*WOOHOO* indeed!

That gives us a better idea of the time lines, not to mention confirmation that the D12 bird seems to be moving along just fine and will be in place beginning 2/13 for the start of testing.

It's all good news.


----------



## jefbal99

sigma1914 said:


> Can D12 give us HD while BSS is testing? I don't mind waiting, just curious.


No testing is at 76W, operation will be at 103W


----------



## Hoosier205

I'm the idiot who doesn't understand what BSS testing even is.


----------



## slimoli

If everything continues to go fine, are we still aiming for live beginning of April ?


----------



## Sixto

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm the idiot who doesn't understand what BSS testing even is.


See post#1.


----------



## sigma1914

jefbal99 said:


> No testing is at 76W, operation will be at 103W


Oooh, I "assumed" it was put in 103 and tested. Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Hoosier205 said:


> I was following along through the part about beginning IOT of D12 on 2/13. They lost me with the next part about IOT of RB-2A on 3/3. I don't know what RB-2A is or what that means.
> 
> IOT= in orbit testing correct?


You've done a great job following things so far.

DIRECTV 12 appears as two satellite packages to the FCC. The Ka band package, for which DIRECTV has a clear license at 103°. And the new BSS band package that has conflict resolution to be done with Ciel.

DIRECTV has a US license for the BSS at 103° and called the license request RB-2 for now. (Rather than call it DIRECTV 13 since it didn't know what would be accepted and awarded.)

Since DIRECTV 12 has a BSS package, that does not fulfill the grant requirements of RB-2 at 103° by the way, DIRECTV called it RB-2A to distinguish with the FCC what this package is when seeking approvals.

Assuming the interference issues can be worked out with Ciel, DIRECTV will need to build and launch an RB-2 within 5 years that does meet all the requirements the FCC put on the grant.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> If everything continues to go fine, are we still aiming for live beginning of April ?


Hopefully testing complete by mid-March, followed by 3 week drift to 103, then "live" within a few weeks after probably.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

jefbal99 said:


> Awesome, time for the topic title to be updated again


So true, DISH may have landed a good jab yesterday. However, DIRECTV is fixing to counter with kick to the head and a rear naked choke.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm the idiot who doesn't understand what BSS testing even is.


Definitely not idiot, just need some education. 

BSS is the newly approved band of frequencies for use in satellite to the home. D12 is the first satellite to have a package of equipment for that band.

When IOT is performed, they test all the equipment to verify it works, that they understand the RF footprint (including shape and power), etc.

First they will be testing the Ka frequency components, then the BSS band.

This is all a very, very big Woohoo!!!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Hopefully testing complete by mid-March, followed by 3 week drift to 103, then "live" within a few weeks after probably.


Thanks again for the great news Sixto!

So basically, we're looking at roughly April 28th "go live"?

What would be the absolute quickest D12 could go live? April 7th?

I'm not in a rush or anything. :lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

Thanks Tom


----------



## Darkscream

So when is the time to breakout the Spectrum Analyzers ?
Do we learn much from them with this testing about to take place ?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> Hopefully testing complete by mid-March, followed by 3 week drift to 103, then "live" within a few weeks after probably.


Woo-frakkin'-Hoo. 

Not knowing anything about drifting satellites, is 3 weeks normal drift time?

Mike


----------



## 1mike3

Now they just need to get Versus back in there line up. Come on Direct TV get Versus Back Now!

Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> Not knowing anything about drifting satellites, is 3 weeks normal drift time?


Many variables, fuel saving plan will probably we the choice route.


----------



## alnielsen

We actually have to deal with the movement of two satellites don't we. There is the one that is currently at 103. Is there an interruption in the signal when they begin to move that one?


----------



## Sixto

alnielsen said:


> We actually have to deal with the movement of two satellites don't we. There is the one that is currently at 103. Is there an interruption in the signal when they begin to move that one?


Three.

Both D10 and SW1 will also be moving very slightly with no interruption.

There are two pending FCC filings for the D10 and SW1 moves.


----------



## LameLefty

alnielsen said:


> We actually have to deal with the movement of two satellites don't we. There is the one that is currently at 103. Is there an interruption in the signal when they begin to move that one?


There are several satellite at each nominal orbital "slot," all offset from one another by fractions of a degree (several miles, generally). 103ºW currently has Spaceway 1 and Directv 10, to be joined by Directv-12/RB-2A and, within five years, Directv RB-2 and possibly a satellite from Ciel (for Canadian BSS service) and . . . big maybe . . . one from Spectrum Five for BSS service to the U.S. as well.

Sliding into and out of operational locations is slow and methodical and requires pretty precise position determinations and coordination among all licensed occupiers of any orbital slot.


----------



## Santi360HD

once the technical jargon is out of the way..

it'll then be contest on who gets to hang at the water cooler with the cool guys..IN ENGLISH

which HD channels Directv adds immediately once testing is over and finally can be rolled out to us...you know? the ones who pay the bills?? yeah us --> the subscribers..

and which HD channels remain conspicious by their absence..


----------



## DirectMan

I thought they were supposed to do BSS testing first at 76 degrees and then drift over to 103 to do the D12 testing. How can they do the spotbeam tests properly at 76 -just measure the outputs but how do you check on the footprints?


----------



## LameLefty

DirectMan said:


> I thought they were supposed to do BSS testing first at 76 degrees and then drift over to 103 to do the D12 testing. How can they do the spotbeam tests properly at 76 -just measure the outputs but how do you check on the footprints?


The FCC filings indicate that Directv will "bias" the satellite toward their facilities as necessary to do the main testing. The patterns and power density of the spotbeams away from the center can be measured with portable equipment, moved around to take measurements.


----------



## dhines

so tell me . . . 

once d* verifies that D12 is functional, what is stopping them from adding HD channels into the bandwidth previously used by the NFL ST broadcasts?


----------



## Sixto

dhines said:


> so tell me . . .
> 
> once d* verifies that D12 is functional, what is stopping them from adding HD channels into the bandwidth previously used by the NFL ST broadcasts?


NFL Sunday Ticket shares Cinema HD bandwidth. It's a business decision as to whether the Cinema HD channels can be touched full-time. It's been stated previously that there are studio contracts to consider.


----------



## LameLefty

dhines said:


> so tell me . . .
> 
> once d* verifies that D12 is functional, what is stopping them from adding HD channels into the bandwidth previously used by the NFL ST broadcasts?


The only member of DBSTalk that I would trust to be able to say ANYTHING definitive about that would be Satelliteracer. The rest of us are interested observers, at best. 

Now, that said, there's all kinds of things that can go wrong with a spacecraft. Even after the Ka testing is completed in the late-March timeframe, if something failed during the drift maneuver, Directv would be in the unenviable position of having to over-compress HD to make up for the loss of expected bandwidth or pull channels out of the lineup.


----------



## dhines

good points guys, those are things that i didn't consider.

thanks,


----------



## smiddy

YES, we have a nice clean satellite to test, lets do it DIRECTV, make it happ'n Cap'n!


----------



## ATARI

LameLefty said:


> The only member of DBSTalk that I would trust to be able to say ANYTHING definitive about that would be Satelliteracer. The rest of us are interested observers, at best.
> 
> Now, that said, there's all kinds of things that can go wrong with a spacecraft. Even after the Ka testing is completed in the late-March timeframe, if something failed during the drift maneuver, Directv would be in the unenviable position of having to over-compress HD to make up for the loss of expected bandwidth or pull channels out of the lineup.


So we can't quite pop the champagne bottles yet?

Can we at least put them on ice?


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Hopefully testing complete by mid-March, followed by 3 week drift to 103, then "live" within a few weeks after probably.


What the optimist can point out is every testing cycle they have ever done as lasted significantly less time than their granted test allotment. In this case, the grant is 30 days at 76. There are two different grants, but I believe they both read thirty days from the time they reach 76. The news release today says they are testing the main payload 2/11 to 3/2 (end date implied) and the BSS from 3/3 to 3/11 (again, implied by the grant). Of course testing could conceivably overlap I guess. I would put small money on them getting done early. Small money only because there are two packages.

The only indication we will have that they are done is when they move.

The next thing we should hear is the press release from Boeing about the turnover.

To those better informed, does this seem correct?


----------



## Ed Campbell

Thanks, again, guys.

Wonderful job as ever.


----------



## tuff bob

ATARI said:


> So we can't quite pop the champagne bottles yet?
> 
> Can we at least put them on ice?


I'll be happier once testing is complete. Thinking back we only found out about D10's sick spot beams during the testing phase. Luckily they were able to work around those problems


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> So we can't quite pop the champagne bottles yet?
> 
> Can we at least put them on ice?


If you like, you certainly can pop the first champagne bottles today. This is a happy milestone.

You might want to save the good stuff for the next party. Which could be successful test or the HD launch. (Obviously both is quite fine too.) 

Cheers,
TOm


----------



## Button Pusher

Very good news!


----------



## Sixto

There's been another #71, with an older timestamp but similar data, ignoring it.


----------



## dcowboy7

Tom Robertson said:


> If you like, you certainly can pop the first champagne bottles today. This is a happy milestone.
> 
> You might want to save the good stuff for the next party. Which could be successful test or the HD launch. (Obviously both is quite fine too.)
> 
> Cheers,
> TOm


Being we still really dont know what the HD channels will be maybe we should just "pop a top" the champagne thats in a can instead....why waste the good stuff yet.

Download "pop a top" by alan jackson....great remake.


----------



## Martinrrrr

A couple of BSS questions:

1. Will the BSS band resist rain fade better than the other bands?
2. Will the BSS require and updated STB or dish?


----------



## P Smith

no
no and yes


----------



## cartrivision

Martinrrrr said:


> A couple of BSS questions:
> 
> 2. Will the BSS require and updated STB or dish?


Probably just a new LNB module (the thing at the end of the arm on the dish), not a whole new dish.


----------



## HIGHWAY

great job sixto


----------



## cartrivision

Great coverage on D12's journey to it's test location. Now, who has the right equipment to point a dish at the 76° test location and at least detect when it's broadcasting on the various "regular" KA and BSS frequencies.


----------



## P Smith

Right now there are no signals in FSS/BSS Ku ranges at 76W.


----------



## cartrivision

P Smith said:


> Right now there are no signals in FSS/BSS Ku ranges at 76W.


So should I take that to mean that you have the necessary equipment and will keep us updated?


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> So should I take that to mean that you have the necessary equipment and will keep us updated?


 in the past P Smith has had the equipment and been able to detect signals. He has let us know


----------



## bobnielsen

cartrivision said:


> Probably just a new LNB module (the thing at the end of the arm on the dish), not a whole new dish.


Possibly not. As someone (I forget who) pointed out earlier in this thread, the BSS band can use the Ka local oscillator (with high-side injection) to provide a signal which the receivers can handle.


----------



## jefbal99

P Smith said:


> Right now there are no signals in FSS/BSS Ku ranges at 76W.


The FCC letter indicated that KA testing would start on Saturday.


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> Possibly not. As someone (I forget who) pointed out earlier in this thread, the BSS band can use the Ka local oscillator (with high-side injection) to provide a signal which the receivers can handle.


Me ?


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> Me ?


Now that you mention it


----------



## gregftlaud

So I have a slimline dish ....did I read right in previous posts we are gonna have to make modifications to our dishes to get the new HD channels coming from D12? If that's the case why is this the 1st i'm hearing about this.


----------



## ke3ju

bobnielsen said:


> Possibly not. As someone (I forget who) pointed out earlier in this thread, the BSS band can use the Ka local oscillator (with high-side injection) to provide a signal which the receivers can handle.


There's nothing like a "high-side injection"...

You must be one of them Extra Class hams...


----------



## Davenlr

No, you wont. There are actually two "satellite bands" built into D12, the one we use, and the one they are testing right now, which will be used for future stuff. You are good to go. You will just have a lot less NA's on your screen on 103 when they move it over after testing.


----------



## evan_s

bobnielsen said:


> Possibly not. As someone (I forget who) pointed out earlier in this thread, the BSS band can use the Ka local oscillator (with high-side injection) to provide a signal which the receivers can handle.


Even beyond the lnb being able to receive the signal they would need to somehow update the stack plan to include the new bss bands and I don't know if they can do that with out replacing the lnb. SWM might be a different story.


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> Even beyond the lnb being able to receive the signal they would need to somehow update the stack plan to include the new bss bands and I don't know if they can do that with out replacing the lnb. SWM might be a different story.


I think the BSS bands could *require* SWM.


----------



## HoTat2

evan_s said:


> Even beyond the lnb being able to receive the signal they would need to somehow update the stack plan to include the new bss bands and I don't know if they can do that with out replacing the lnb. SWM might be a different story.


Yeah ...

Although there is maybe one possibility I see of integrating the new BSS band at 103 into the current stack plan by reworking and then mapping in the same fashion as the 110 ("Sat. C") LNB, the BSS frequencies onto the heavily unused spectrum between Ku transponders 1-21 on the 119 ("Sat B") frequency block which currently only holds the three LHCP 110 tp. signals down-converted to the 119's 8, 10, 12. tp. channels.

Or for that matter design the new LNB to eliminate some of the 119's lower transponders and/or reducing the 200 MHz guard band to extend the frequency block somewhere below 950 MHz to create additional bandwidth if necessary.

Just a thought, but either way though it will require at least an LNB change-out on the current AU-9 dish.


----------



## macmantis

The newest TLE shows the D12 is only 3km off from its parking spot. It is still has a slight inclination. It looks like it is really ready for testing.

MacMantis


----------



## Ken984

Code:


directv 12 
1 36131u 09075a   10043.10930094 -.00000252  00000-0  10000-3 0   725
2 36131 000.1050 273.3635 0000366 038.1175 153.8346 01.00275725   538

Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-02-12 02:37:23
Orbit # at Epoch	53
Inclination	0.105
RA of A. Node	273.363
Eccentricity	0.0000366
Argument of Perigee	38.118
Revs per day	1.00275725
Period	23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 784 x 35 787 km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-12-2010 02:37:23
Orbit # at Epoch	53
Inclination		0.105
RA of A. Node		273.364
Eccentricity		0.0000366
Argument of Perigee	38.118
Revs per day		1.00275725
Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 784 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	72 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0401° W
Lat			0.0191° S
Alt (km)		35 786.380

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
Target ----------> 35,786 x 35,786      0                 76.00°W  0.00°N  0.00°
072 02-12 02:37:23 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,784[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,787[/COLOR][/B]      3 +12.07H 45.09D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.11°
071 02-11 14:33:27 [B][COLOR="Red"]35,719[/COLOR][/B] x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,876[/COLOR][/B]    157 +  .35H 44.59D  76.05°W  0.01°N  0.13°
070 02-11 14:12:27 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,896[/COLOR][/B]    220 +25.23H 44.58D  76.04°W  0.00°N  0.12°
069 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x 35,826    150 + 0.00H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.14°
068 02-10 12:58:55 35,676 x [B][COLOR="Red"]35,826[/COLOR][/B]    150 + 9.76H 43.53D  75.90°W  0.03°S  0.13°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Sixto

Still expect a little more of tweak (or two) before tomorrow.

For the next 20-30 days, I will update post#1 with each update, but it doesn't seem appropriate to post the updates in the thread, until the move starts to 103°.


----------



## Sixto

Davenlr said:


> You will just have a lot less NA's on your screen on 103 when they move it over after testing.


For the D12 national (CONUS), we expect a new signal screen for "103 (ca)", with the current screen changed to "103 (cb)".


----------



## MIAMI1683

Sixto said:


> For the D12 national (CONUS), we expect a new signal screen for "103 (ca)", with the current screen changed to "103 (cb)".


 Sixto ,

I don't come around here too much these days, but once again this thread and all you do is simply amazing! Nice work and great information here . Thanks again to you and the entire DBSTalk staff


----------



## HRJustin

I was just wondering will there be updates as to how the testing is going on D12. Will we hear about what the satellite is doing and if everything is going to plan. I was just curious if they show when the solar arrays are deployed along with all of the other processes it has to do to become operational for testing. I am thinking all of this is internal information but it would be interesting to hear how the testing is going over the 30 days.


----------



## LameLefty

HRJustin said:


> I was just wondering will there be updates as to how the testing is going on D12. Will we hear about what the satellite is doing and if everything is going to plan. I was just curious if they show when the solar arrays are deployed along with all of the other processes it has to do to become operational for testing. I am thinking all of this is internal information but it would be interesting to hear how the testing is going over the 30 days.


We won't hear a thing unless there are technical issues that must be raised with the FCC. Otherwise we're at the mercy of Space Command to watch for TLEs indicating the start of the drift toward 103ºW in a month - six weeks.

As for the solar arrays, I personally believe they have been deployed for some time; check my post a few days ago with the link to the Boeing writeup on the XIPS system for the 702 bus spacecraft.


----------



## HRJustin

LameLefty said:


> We won't hear a thing unless there are technical issues that must be raised with the FCC. Otherwise we're at the mercy of Space Command to watch for TLEs indicating the start of the drift toward 103ºW in a month - six weeks.
> 
> As for the solar arrays, I personally believe they have been deployed for some time; check my post a few days ago with the link to the Boeing writeup on the XIPS system for the 702 bus spacecraft.


Right I figured the solar arrays had been deployed already by now . I was just hoping for some cool information about how the testing was going in real time. I really didnt think there would be though honestly lol. Thanks for the quick reply. :grin:


----------



## P Smith

Probably charging batteries now to prepare lit on TWAs and other payload equipment.


----------



## GregLee

Sixto said:


> For the D12 national (CONUS), we expect a new signal screen for "103 (ca)", with the current screen changed to "103 (cb)".


On the signal strength screen, I now see "103(cb)".


----------



## GP245

GregLee said:


> On the signal strength screen, I now see "103(cb)".


Did you have to reset your receiver to get this?

I have no such thing on mine.


----------



## LameLefty

GregLee said:


> On the signal strength screen, I now see "103(cb)".





GP245 said:


> Did you have to reset your receiver to get this?
> 
> I have no such thing on mine.


It's a feature in the newer versions of the H/HR2x firmware.


----------



## GP245

LameLefty said:


> It's a feature in the newer versions of the H/HR2x firmware.


"Newer Version" - via CE update?

I currently have 0x395 installed on 2/2.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This is not the place to discuss Cutting Edge software. Please don't make me delete posts.


----------



## rey_1178

Jeremy W said:


> I think the BSS bands could *require* SWM.


so you're saying i'm all set for this since i have a swm lnb?


----------



## HoTat2

rey_1178 said:


> so you're saying i'm all set for this since i have a swm lnb?


No, but that the prospective *future* design of a "BSS capable LNB" will likely be based on a SWiM type since there doesn't appear to be enough space to include it in the current frequency-stack plan of a legacy multi-switch type.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So today's the big day....D12 in place for initial testing....WooHoo!

Looking forward to seeing the latest TLE and graph.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So today's the big day....D12 in place for initial testing....WooHoo!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the latest TLE and graph.


Yep, great that testing started this morning.

Will continue to update the progress in post#1, but don't expect to litter the thread with updates until D12 starts the move to 103° in 3-4 weeks.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Yep, great that testing started this morning.


So obviously the solar panels opened safely then, and we have confirmation somewhere that it is broadcasting from 76?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So today's the big day....D12 in place for initial testing....WooHoo!
> 
> Looking forward to seeing the latest TLE and graph.


+1

As Paul Sr would say: "fire it up"


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> So obviously the solar panels opened safely then, and we have confirmation somewhere that it is broadcasting from 76?


The Thursday FCC Filing said testing starts today, and PSmith hasn't yet detected anything at 76°.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> +1
> 
> As Paul Sr would say: "fire it up"


The flux capacitor may take a few hours to warm up.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The flux capacitor may take a few hours to warm up.


Along with the dilithium crystals.


----------



## smiddy

TheRatPatrol said:


> Along with the dilithium crystals.


[ScottyAccent]Aye Cap'n, I'm giv'n ya all she's got, she won't go no faster![/ScottyAccent]


----------



## TheRatPatrol

smiddy said:


> [ScottyAccent]Aye Cap'n, I'm giv'n ya all she's got, she won't go no faster![/ScottyAccent]


[Kirk]Dammit Scotty we need full power in 8-12 weeks or we won't get anymore HD channels![/Kirk]


----------



## P Smith

Unfortunately my setup (Ku LNBF) wouldn't show any signals from D12 - need Ka LNBF at least.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Yep, great that testing started this morning.
> 
> Will continue to update the progress in post#1, but don't expect to litter the thread with updates until D12 starts the move to 103° in 3-4 weeks.


Satracer said we'll get new HD sooner than expected. Any idea what he meant by that?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Satracer said we'll get new HD sooner than expected. Any idea what he meant by that?


My hope is that means some milestones for D12 looked better or happened sooner than the "worst case" timeline, thereby making HD to us sooner. 

A corollary thought could be that the uplinking facilities are on schedule or perhaps even ahead of schedule too. Perhaps all the new channels are already being received by DIRECTV for testing...  

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

How much sooner though? If its running ahead of schedule when about will we get new HD? March maybe?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Satracer said we'll get new HD sooner than expected. Any idea what he meant by that?


It could mean that the schedule for new channel(s) on D12 has improved, or they've decided to launch (some) channel(s) prior to D12.

It would appear that the earliest that D12 could be ready is early-April, assuming that the testing is completed by mid-March and it's still scheduled to take 3 weeks for the drift to 103.

There are many technical variables, along with financial variables such as the allocation of the capital funding for the infrastructure to support any new HD channels (public companies are very sensitive to wall street these days).


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> It could mean that the schedule for new channel(s) on D12 has improved, or they've decided to launch (some) channel(s) prior to D12.
> 
> It would appear that the earliest that D12 could be ready is early-April, assuming that the testing is completed by mid-March and it's still scheduled to take 3 weeks for the drift to 103.
> 
> There are many technical variables, along with financial variables such as the allocation of the capital funding for the infrastructure to support any new HD channels (public companies are very sensitive to wall street these days).


So if my birthday is April 6 will D* get me some good presents?


----------



## rey_1178

HoTat2 said:


> No, but that the prospective *future* design of a "BSS capable LNB" will likely be based on a SWiM type since there doesn't appear to be enough space to include it in the current frequency-stack plan of a legacy multi-switch type.


thank you


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So if my birthday is April 6 will D* get me some good presents?


Based on what we know right now, I'd say mid-to-late April.

The original FCC filing had "no later then 5/5/2010" for arrival at 103. This seems to have been improved.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Based on what we know right now, I'd say mid-to-late April.
> 
> The original FCC filing had "no later then 5/5/2010" for arrival at 103. This seems to have been improved.


improved to what? any word from D*?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So if my birthday is April 6 will D* get me some good presents?


I don't think they will move things that quickly. I suppose it could happen, tho I think to move that fast, they would have to use a lot of fuel to move D12 fast enough from 76° to 103°.

So your celebration might be a bit belated.

We will have some big clues--Sixto, lamelefty, DoctorJ, DodgerKing, and others will have many happy reports of D12 moving. 

Guys--You've all done a fantastic job!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> improved to what? any word from D*?


Alas, nothing official. Certainly not until the complete test plan is completed. Even if the first rounds of tests look great, anything could snag and use up all the contingency days they have in the schedule. May it not happen! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> improved to what? any word from D*?


Besides investor/analyst briefings/presentations, and the occasional press release, the primary source of public information are the FCC Filings.

Per Thursday's filing, which stated a test start date of 2/13, and based on previous filings which stated a 4 week test period, it appears that testing will be completed at 76 by mid-March.

Previous filings stated that D12 would arrive at the 76 test location no earlier then 2/15, therefore it appears that the schedule has improved.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't think they will move things that quickly. I suppose it could happen, tho I think to move that fast, they would have to use a lot of fuel to move D12 fast enough from 76° to 103°.
> 
> So your celebration might be a bit belated.
> 
> We will have some big clues--Sixto, lamelefty, DoctorJ, DodgerKing, and others will have many happy reports of D12 moving.
> 
> Guys--You've all done a fantastic job!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Doctor J is on here? Wow I didn't know NBA players liked this site.:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Doctor J is on here? Wow I didn't know NBA players liked this site.:lol:


What do you think Titanium customers do while watching all that DIRECTV glory--read DBStalk on their $5,000 laptops. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cebbigh

Which will go live first? D12 or E14?


----------



## LameLefty

cebbigh said:


> Which will go live first? D12 or E14?


I would venture to guess that MOST people actively following this thread don't know or care about E14.


----------



## cebbigh

LameLefty said:


> I would venture to guess that MOST people actively following this thread don't know or care about E14.


touche


----------



## Tom Robertson

cebbigh said:


> Which will go live first? D12 or E14?


D12. E14 won't launch for another month.


----------



## cebbigh

Tom Robertson said:


> D12. E14 won't launch for another month.


Yes I knew the launch date. My concern had more to do with the possibility that E14 would breeze through testing and go live prior to May. But in retrospect I withdraw the question as it is off topic. I appreciate the need to stay focused on this thread.


----------



## evan_s

HoTat2 said:


> No, but that the prospective *future* design of a "BSS capable LNB" will likely be based on a SWiM type since there doesn't appear to be enough space to include it in the current frequency-stack plan of a legacy multi-switch type.


They will have to have some sort of legacy stack plan simply because you can't expand the number of receivers a SWMLNB can support with a multiswitch. MDU's and other large installs require the ability to use multiswitches to expand capacity. Most likely the 2 flexports will just be re-purposed to provide 2 additional inputs that has more than enough space for the 2 new bss slots.


----------



## dpeters11

cebbigh said:


> Yes I knew the launch date. My concern had more to do with the possibility that E14 would breeze through testing and go live prior to May. But in retrospect I withdraw the question as it is off topic. I appreciate the need to stay focused on this thread.


But it also takes time to get to it's slots, FCC rules etc.


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> MDU's and other large installs require the ability to use multiswitches to expand capacity.


Huh? MFH2 and MFH3 do not use legacy multiswitches at all.


----------



## Christopher Gould

evan_s said:


> They will have to have some sort of legacy stack plan simply because you can't expand the number of receivers a SWMLNB can support with a multiswitch. MDU's and other large installs require the ability to use multiswitches to expand capacity. Most likely the 2 flexports will just be re-purposed to provide 2 additional inputs that has more than enough space for the 2 new bss slots.


correct me if im wrong but arent there more than 2 new bss slots


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> The FCC approvals from 7/28/2009 ... the Notes are from early September last time I checked:
> 
> 
> 
> *FCC Application*
> |
> *Company*
> |
> *Callsign*
> |
> *Slot*
> |
> *Notes*
> 
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00031|Intelsat|S2662|91°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00042|Pegasus|S2698|91°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00099|DirecTV|S2711|99°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00029|Intelsat|S2660|99°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00100|DirecTV |S2712|103°|Paid
> |
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00049|DirecTV|	S2242|107°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00052|EchoStar|S2442|107°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00043|Pegasus|S2699|107°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00051|EchoStar|S2441|111°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050|DirecTV|	S2243|111°|Paid





Christopher Gould said:


> correct me if im wrong but arent there more than 2 new bss slots


answer above from last checked.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cebbigh said:


> Yes I knew the launch date. My concern had more to do with the possibility that E14 would breeze through testing and go live prior to May. But in retrospect I withdraw the question as it is off topic. I appreciate the need to stay focused on this thread.


Is ok, you made me look. 

If E14 used all it's fuel for years 12-15, it could, in theory, get parked, tested, and broadcasting before D12's FCC date... (and still not be before D12 is broadcasting...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cebbigh

Tom Robertson said:


> Is ok, you made me look.
> 
> If E14 used all it's fuel for years 12-15, it could, in theory, get parked, tested, and broadcasting before D12's FCC date... (and still not be before D12 is broadcasting...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks. 

We could be looking at an interesting situation down the road of dueling releases. D releases a few, then E releases a few, etc.


----------



## alnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't think they will move things that quickly. I suppose it could happen, tho I think to move that fast, they would have to use a lot of fuel to move D12 fast enough from 76° to 103°.
> 
> So your celebration might be a bit belated.
> 
> We will have some big clues--Sixto, lamelefty, DoctorJ, DodgerKing, and others will have many happy reports of D12 moving.
> 
> Guys--You've all done a fantastic job!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Orbital Mechanics Question: Can't they just move it to a higher orbit, let the Earth spin around underneath it, then drop it back down to it's resting spot? It would seem that that wouldn't use much fuel.


----------



## Jeremy W

alnielsen said:


> Orbital Mechanics Question: Can't they just move it to a higher orbit, let the Earth spin around underneath it, then drop it back down to it's resting spot? It would seem that that wouldn't use much fuel.


That's what they do. The thing is, moving it to that higher orbit and then back down again actually does take up a relatively large amount of fuel.


----------



## evan_s

Jeremy W said:


> Huh? MFH2 and MFH3 do not use legacy multiswitches at all.


The SWM8, SWM16 and SWM32 are still multiswitches and still require a legacy type stack plan to function correctly.


----------



## evan_s

Christopher Gould said:


> correct me if im wrong but arent there more than 2 new bss slots


They have 4 bss slots if I recall correctly. 99/103/ 111 and 115 I think. 111/115 are shared with Dish if i recall correctly and do to their location farther west than the core 99/101/103 grouping, I suspect may not be used for core content. Even then there should be enough slots in 2 more ports to accommodate 3 more slots. With 111/115 being half slots they should be able to fit it all. Most likely directv and dish will coordinate so one gets all the even transponders and the other gets all the odds so they only need 1 spot each instead of 2.


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> The SWM8, SWM16 and SWM32 are still multiswitches and still require a legacy type stack plan to function correctly.


Yeah, and they'd have to be upgraded to support BSS. I don't see the issue.


----------



## leww37334

So I will need to upgrade my dish twice in the foreseeable future, once to get MRV then a second time to get BSS?


----------



## LameLefty

leww37334 said:


> So I will need to upgrade my dish twice in the foreseeable future, once to get MRV then a second time to get BSS?


Why would you need to upgrade your dish for MRV?  MRV has nothing to do with the type of dish you use. Are you referring to the preferred Directv solution of DECA modules on a SWM-based system? If so, you can simply replace your existing multiswitch with an SWM8 or SWM16 rather than replace your dish.

As for BSS, right now there are a lot of uncertainties. The RB-2A payload on D12 consists of only 4 spotbeams, and is completely irrelevant to most Directv subscribers. It'll be several years at least before BSS transmissions go "live" for the rest of the Directv subscriber base and there's plenty of time to figure out the details before then.

More to the point, given that BSS is basically another part of the Ku spectrum, I have to wonder how much actual capacity will be added, especially as more and channels are transmitted in HD.


----------



## loudo

Got a technical question maybe one of you could answer. When there are two satellites operating in the same slot (say 99 or 103). How physically close to each other are they (feet, miles, etc?).


----------



## LameLefty

loudo said:


> Got a technical question maybe one of you could answer. When there are two satellites operating in the same slot (say 99 or 103). How physically close to each other are they (feet, miles, etc?).


Miles. A tenth of a degree at GSO works out to approximately 46 miles. So satellites are offset from the "core" slot by specific offset determined by federal regulations and international agreements. Each satellite as station-keeping requirements to prevent them from drifting east-west more than a very small amount so that they don't interfere with their neighbors.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Miles. A tenth of a degree at GSO works out to approximately 46 miles. So satellites are offset from the "core" slot by specific offset determined by federal regulations and international agreements. Each satellite as station-keeping requirements to prevent them from drifting east-west more than a very small amount so that they don't interfere with their neighbors.


So using that formula....the 99 and 101 sats locations are about 92 miles apart?

Could another variable could be altitude?


----------



## kevinwmsn

don't you mean 920?


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So using that formula....the 99 and 101 sats locations are about 92 miles apart?
> 
> 
> 
> It's about 46 miles per TENTH of a degree.  So you're off by a factor of 10.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could another variable could be altitude?
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. If the satellites are appreciably higher than GSO (more than, say, a few kilometers), they'll orbit more slowly and appear to drift westward in the sky as the Earth's rotational period will be smaller than the orbital period of the satellite. Conversely, if the satellite is much below GSO, it will orbit faster than the Earth is rotating, causing the satellite to have an apparent eastward drift.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> hdtvfan0001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So using that formula....the 99 and 101 sats locations are about 92 miles apart?
> 
> 
> 
> It's about 46 miles per TENTH of a degree.  So you're off by a factor of 10.
> Not really. If the satellites are appreciably higher than GSO (more than, say, a few kilometers), they'll orbit more slowly and appear to drift westward in the sky as the Earth's rotational period will be smaller than the orbital period of the satellite. Conversely, if the satellite is much below GSO, it will orbit faster than the Earth is rotating, causing the satellite to have an apparent eastward drift.
> 
> 
> 
> Meant to say 920.
> 
> It is interesting how all the rules and requirements for sat positioning work. Many of us depend on the rocket scientists here to carve through the math and science to understand it all. Thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## leww37334

other threads here say MRV will be a DECA only solution, they also say you will need an SWM LNB for it. Also I currently do not need a switch, four wires are enough. for my arrangement. AS an engineer, I like to kepp a solution as simple as possible, less to fail. 

Also, as I understand it the current dish/LNB will not support BSS, hence two upgrades.

Of course like everything else Directv, no one really knows because they refuse to provide any information.


----------



## LameLefty

leww37334 said:


> other threads here say MRV will be a DECA only solution, they also say you will need an SWM LNB for it. Also I currently do not need a switch, four wires are enough. for my arrangement. AS an engineer, I like to kepp a solution as simple as possible, less to fail.


No one knows for sure whether Directv will make an SWM-based system a requirement for MRV; nonetheless, it will NOT require an SWM LNB. A standalone SWM8 or SWM16 will work just fine (as it must, since any installation that requires more than 8 tuners has to have an SWM module rather than an LNB).



> Also, as I understand it the current dish/LNB will not support BSS, hence two upgrades.


Again, BSS service to the vast majority of Directv subs is YEARS away. I would not waste a moment worrying about it yet.


----------



## leww37334

OK thanks maybe I won't have to lay out as much money as I feared.


----------



## Tom Robertson

alnielsen said:


> Orbital Mechanics Question: Can't they just move it to a higher orbit, let the Earth spin around underneath it, then drop it back down to it's resting spot? It would seem that that wouldn't use much fuel.


As Jeremy says, fast moves require lots of fuel twice. Once to speed up the move and once to slow it back down. All the fuel cuts into the lifespan of the satellite in space. Usually the electronics work longer than the fuel lasts. (Or at least enough of the electronics does to remain functional. Some transponders might die--hence the spares.  )

To remain in a parked orbit, the thrusters puff a tiny bit a couple of times a day. So imagine 15 years x 365.25 days x 2-4 puffs. Adds up to a bunch of fuel. And big thrusts eat that up very quickly. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## loudo

LameLefty said:


> Miles. A tenth of a degree at GSO works out to approximately 46 miles. So satellites are offset from the "core" slot by specific offset determined by federal regulations and international agreements. Each satellite as station-keeping requirements to prevent them from drifting east-west more than a very small amount so that they don't interfere with their neighbors.


Thanks for your answer.♠


----------



## uncrules

I hope MRV doesn't evolve into a DECA only solution. Right now I'm using MRV using my home router to connect my HR20 and HR22. But I've been a customer since 1995 and some of my equipment is older. Currently I don't have a SWM setup and I have 3 R15 DVRs. To go DECA I would have to replace all of my R15s plus whatever Directv would charge me to bring the SWM and DECA equipment and install it. Also my 2 daughters are the primary users of the 3 R15s and they don't want to lose all of the recorded content on these DVRs.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

uncrules said:


> I hope MRV doesn't evolve into a DECA only solution. Right now I'm using MRV using my home router to connect my HR20 and HR22. But I've been a customer since 1995 and some of my equipment is older. Currently I don't have a SWM setup and I have 3 R15 DVRs. To go DECA I would have to replace all of my R15s plus whatever Directv would charge me to bring the SWM and DECA equipment and install it. Also my 2 daughters are the primary users of the 3 R15s and they don't want to lose all of the recorded content on these DVRs.


That topic has its own threads here....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=171260&highlight=MRV

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=171743&highlight=MRV

This thread pertains to the D12 satellite and its pending activation in the near future.


----------



## raoul5788

loudo said:


> Thanks for your answer.♠


The math is pretty easy, even I can do it. The earth is approximately 7900 in diameter, and the distance to the satellites is 22,500 miles. That means the circle they reside on is about 52,900 miles in diameter. Multiply that times pi, or 3.14159...and you get a circumference of 166,190 miles. Divide that by 360, the number of degrees in a circle, and you get about 462 miles/degree. That means every .1 of a degree is about 46 miles, just like LL said! Hey, I got it right!


----------



## cartrivision

evan_s said:


> The SWM8, SWM16 and SWM32 are still multiswitches and still require a legacy type stack plan to function correctly.


There's nothing that says that legacy SWM equipment has to or will support BSS. If BSS isn't fit somewhere into the current stack plan (by re-purposing the flex port inputs, or some other way), then a new BSS-SWM LNB could be made a requirement for BSS reception (or a new external SWM with one or more BSS inputs in addition to the 6 inputs that are on a legacy external SWM).


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> As Jeremy says, fast moves require lots of fuel twice. Once to speed up the move and once to slow it back down. All the fuel cuts into the lifespan of the satellite in space. Usually the electronics work longer than the fuel lasts. (Or at least enough of the electronics does to remain functional. Some transponders might die--hence the spares.  )
> 
> To remain in a parked orbit, the thrusters puff a tiny bit a couple of times a day. So imagine 15 years x 365.25 days x 2-4 puffs. Adds up to a bunch of fuel. And big thrusts eat that up very quickly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Do you think they will ever use Zenon engines to keep the sats in orbit?


----------



## bobnielsen

curt8403 said:


> Do you think they will ever use Zenon engines to keep the sats in orbit?


Isn't that what they are using (XIPS = Xenon Ion Propulsion System)?


----------



## curt8403

bobnielsen said:


> Isn't that what they are using (XIPS = Xenon Ion Propulsion System)?


 they are supposed to last much longer than regular engines
maybe outlast some of the electronics


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> they are supposed to last much longer than regular engines
> maybe outlast some of the electronics


Capacity is everything. There are limits of course.

The whole system is weight balanced for power, transponders, and fuel.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Isn't that what they are using (XIPS = Xenon Ion Propulsion System)?


Yes it is.


----------



## tuckerdog

Ladies and Gentlemen
Obviously the knowledge base here is remarkable.
Quick question.
The testing was suppose to begin on 2/13 with the revised filing. Unless I missed the post, no confirmation yet of a signal coming from D12. Does that imply a delay or are there other tests which need to be done prior to testing the Transponders
Just curious as my life is not going to change if D12 goes live a week or even a month late 
Thanks in advance
Michael


----------



## Sixto

tuckerdog said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen
> Obviously the knowledge base here is remarkable.
> Quick question.
> The testing was suppose to begin on 2/13 with the revised filing. Unless I missed the post, no confirmation yet of a signal coming from D12. Does that imply a delay or are there other tests which need to be done prior to testing the Transponders
> Just curious as my life is not going to change if D12 goes live a week or even a month late
> Thanks in advance
> Michael


Testing is at 76°, which we can't receive.

We'll rely on any FCC updates or the start of the drift to 103° in Mid-March.


----------



## curt8403

tuckerdog said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen
> Obviously the knowledge base here is remarkable.
> Quick question.
> The testing was suppose to begin on 2/13 with the revised filing. Unless I missed the post, no confirmation yet of a signal coming from D12. Does that imply a delay or are there other tests which need to be done prior to testing the Transponders
> Just curious as my life is not going to change if D12 goes live a week or even a month late
> Thanks in advance
> Michael


 in early testing the signal could pop on and off at random (so to speak) and may be only a carrier signal rather than something intelligent.
it takes 3 to 5 days before we see anything definate


----------



## tuckerdog

Thanks for the reply

I will wait with eager anticipation

Michael


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> As Jeremy says, fast moves require lots of fuel twice. Once to speed up the move and once to slow it back down. All the fuel cuts into the lifespan of the satellite in space. Usually the electronics work longer than the fuel lasts. (Or at least enough of the electronics does to remain functional. Some transponders might die--hence the spares.  )
> 
> To remain in a parked orbit, the thrusters puff a tiny bit a couple of times a day. So imagine 15 years x 365.25 days x 2-4 puffs. Adds up to a bunch of fuel. And big thrusts eat that up very quickly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK, here's a question for the rocket scientists here... how much does the apogee have to be raised on a GSO satellite in order to drift it from 76° to 103° in 20 days, ignoring (or not) that in reality it might be slowly raised and then slowly lowered at the beginning and end of it's 27° trip.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Testing is at 76°, which we can't receive.
> 
> We'll rely on any FCC updates or the start of the drift to 103° in Mid-March.


I thought sure either you or LL or P Smith would be camped out at the D* testing facilities, all dressed in black with your blacked out dish and an oscilloscope dialing in the data. Sort of like Whistler from the movie Sneakers.


----------



## P Smith

Good idea, but I don't have spare AU-9 for the camping tour with spectrum analyzer. Imagine, sitting on a beach, do setup the 1m dish and SA ( it is portable, should lasts a couple hours), dialing to 76W and waiting days and nights when some weird spike signal start appearing then drifting to the left and right side of screen ( I recall that was during test of previous D10 or D11)...


----------



## HoTat2

curt8403 said:


> in early testing the signal could pop on and off at random (so to speak) and may be only a carrier signal rather than something intelligent.
> it takes 3 to 5 days before we see anything definate


It will be only a CW carrier signal for IOT at 76° as the STA allows for no other emission during the testing phase.

DirecTV intends to plot the "gain-transfer" characteristics with an unmodulated carrier wave for each transponder at three points. The center or mid-frequency and upper and lower edges of all the transponders' frequency response curves.


----------



## curt8403

HoTat2 said:


> It will be only a CW carrier signal for IOT at 76° as the STA allows for no other emission during the testing phase.
> 
> DirecTV intends to plot the "gain-transfer" characteristics with an unmodulated carrier wave for each transponder at three points. The center or mid-frequency and upper and lower edges of all the transponders' frequency response curves.


 we should define CW as some people see CW and thing CBS - Warner Bros. I think you mean Clock Wise?


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> It will be only a CW carrier signal for IOT at 76° as the STA allows for no other emission during the testing phase.
> 
> DirecTV intends to plot the "gain-transfer" characteristics with an unmodulated carrier wave for each transponder at three points. The center or mid-frequency and upper and lower edges of all the transponders' frequency response curves.


Good catch. 

I bet they also will test all the transponders spot, national, and spares.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

curt8403 said:


> we should define CW as some people see CW and thing CBS - Warner Bros. *I think you mean Clock Wise?*


No I mean CW as in "continuous wave."

Perhaps I shouldn't have capitalized the letters earlier ...


----------



## curt8403

HoTat2 said:


> No I mean CW as in "continuous wave."
> 
> Perhaps I shouldn't have capitalized the letters earlier ...


No problem, we educate the masses, and make they appreciate all that Directv has to do to get more HD channels.
:hurah:


----------



## cartrivision

P Smith said:


> Good idea, but I don't have spare AU-9 for the camping tour with spectrum analyzer. Imagine, sitting on a beach, do setup the 1m dish and SA ( it is portable, should lasts a couple hours), dialing to 76W and waiting days and nights when some weird spike signal start appearing then drifting to the left and right side of screen ( I recall that was during test of previous D10 or D11)...


I don't see how that would be any more ridiculous than a couple dozen of us following (for 6 months and 3000 posts) a thread about a satellite being put into service.


----------



## hdgreg

cartrivision said:


> I don't see how that would be any more ridiculous than a couple dozen of us following (for 6 months and 3000 posts) a thread about a satellite being put into service.


As in all through the Holidays, and even more "pathetic" there are a whole lot of us viewing this thread right now, for a reason I can't quite define!


----------



## curt8403

I'm at work, and bored stiff, this is better than folding paper.


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> No I mean CW as in "continuous wave."
> 
> Perhaps I shouldn't have capitalized the letters earlier ...


AKA "unmodulated carrier", in case some hams interpret CW as Morse code transmissions.


----------



## cdhinch

bobnielsen said:


> Isn't that what they are using (XIPS = Xenon Ion Propulsion System)?


Here's a link to Boeing's fact sheet about the XIPS thrusters that are used in the 702 bus. http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> Good idea, but I don't have spare AU-9 for the camping tour with spectrum analyzer. Imagine, sitting on a beach, do setup the 1m dish and SA ( it is portable, should lasts a couple hours), dialing to 76W and waiting days and nights when some weird spike signal start appearing then drifting to the left and right side of screen ( I recall that was during test of previous D10 or D11)...


Imagine Homeland Insecurity tapping you on the shoulder...


----------



## LameLefty

cdhinch said:


> Here's a link to Boeing's fact sheet about the XIPS thrusters that are used in the 702 bus. http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


I posted that same link some pages back in this thread. Of course, with the thread as long as it is, most likely topics have already been discussed to death. :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

So they're testing at 76 W now right? So what would happen if someone tuned a dish to 76 W? Would they find out what new HD channels we're getting?


----------



## RobertE

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So they're testing at 76 W now right? So what would happen if someone tuned a dish to 76 W? Would they find out what new HD channels we're getting?


No.


----------



## kmax

hdgreg said:


> As in all through the Holidays, and even more "pathetic" there are a whole lot of us viewing this thread right now, for a reason I can't quite define!


Reason for me is it is quite fascinating...the level of "smarts" of other posters here is incredible.

I look at it from the angle of all the failure points, and all the work involved for proper planning and everything else to be "done right" at the end. The number of individuals involved and the coordination it has taken is quite incredible. A lot of people think nothing of it when they turn on their TV. But a lot of us here appreciate all the details...from the design/manufacturing/testing of the sats to the fact they were able to plan ahead and test mpeg4 functionality with the HD receivers. Stakes are high, it's not like if something doesn't work they could hop in a car and drive 20 miles to tweak things.

In short, it makes one appreciate all the work it takes to get QVC (and all the other good stuff  ) without much issue.


----------



## litzdog911

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So they're testing at 76 W now right? So what would happen if someone tuned a dish to 76 W? Would they find out what new HD channels we're getting?


With the proper dish aimed at 76ºW and suitable spectrum analyzer you might be able to see the various transponders "light up" as they're tested. That's about it, though.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

litzdog911 said:


> With the proper dish aimed at 76ºW and suitable spectrum analyzer you might be able to see the various transponders "light up" as they're tested. That's about it, though.


whats a spectrum analyzer?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's a device for graphically displaying the characteristics of waveforms.


----------



## raoul5788

Coca Cola Kid said:


> whats a spectrum analyzer?


Ever heard of google?


----------



## Tom Robertson

raoul5788 said:


> Ever heard of google?


Ever heard of "Play nice?"


----------



## RobertE

Tom Robertson said:


> Ever heard of "Play nice?"


Give a man a fish, and he shall eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he shall eat for a lifetime.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

:backtotop: all of you...


----------



## thelucky1

Maybe we will get some insight/updates on D12 & new HD channels from the conference call on Thursday!

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Feb 01, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- DIRECTV (NASDAQTV) will host a conference call and Internet webcast to discuss its 2009 fourth quarter financial results, outlook and other forward looking information on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:00 a.m. PT / 2:00 p.m. ET.


----------



## P Smith

Coca Cola Kid said:


> whats a spectrum analyzer?


Check the old thread about D10 signals. And test signals from D11 here.


----------



## RAD

thelucky1 said:


> Maybe we will get some insight/updates on D12 & new HD channels from the conference call on Thursday!
> 
> EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Feb 01, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- DIRECTV (NASDAQTV) will host a conference call and Internet webcast to discuss its 2009 fourth quarter financial results, outlook and other forward looking information on Thursday, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:00 a.m. PT / 2:00 p.m. ET.


In the past they've not been that specific about new channel additions, all they want to talk about is financial numbers.


----------



## oldfantom

RAD said:


> In the past they've not been that specific about new channel additions, all they want to talk about is financial numbers.


I would give it about a 5% chance that they say anything specific. If they feel that the analysts need some sort of positive HD news, maybe. But, as you say, they have never done so in the past. I would bet, they give a lot less information than we have in post one.


----------



## slimoli

oldfantom said:


> I would give it about a 5% chance that they say anything specific. If they feel that the analysts need some sort of positive HD news, maybe. But, as you say, they have never done so in the past. I would bet, they give a lot less information than we have in post one.


The situation now is a completely different ball game: D12 is up, Dish just announced new HD channels, there is a media war between Dish and Directv. I bet the analysts will make questions about new HD channels and at least we will have some hints about the Directv HD road map.


----------



## Sixto

More Spectrum Five (2/16/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800745​


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five (2/16/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800745​


How many times are they going to repeat the same arguments before the FCC's "REQUEST DENIED" sinks in?


----------



## Tom Robertson

At some point, you'd think Spectrum 5 would run out of money at this rate...


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> At some point, you'd think Spectrum 5 would run out of money at this rate...


It seems that they must be spending more money on lawyers fees than they will on designing and building satellites. :lol:


----------



## rey_1178

Coca Cola Kid said:


> whats a spectrum analyzer?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_analyzer


----------



## Hoosier205

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five (2/16/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800745​


I believe I may call the number they have listed tomorrow and have a little fun with them.


----------



## HoTat2

I personally feel that Spectrum 5 may actually have a legitimate argument by strict letter of the law, but the reality is the FCC is not overly concerned with a strict interpretation of the law and is not exactly impartial here. Not that they're specifically biased toward DirecTV, but they really have no interest in letting this potential new BSS service lie around fallow for years awaiting on rule book waving groups like Spectrum 5 and Ceil to eventually put up a satellite assuming they actually will at some point.

DirecTV has a BSS system deployed right now, that's ready to go and I don't think the government really want's to stand in the way of DirecTV's pioneering efforts in this band which is also serving as a sort of advanced beta-tester of this service for them.


----------



## tuff bob

HoTat2 said:


> but they really have no interest in letting this potential new BSS service lie around fallow for years awaiting on rule book waving groups like Spectrum 5 and Ceil to eventually put up a satellite assuming they actually will at some point.


I think the FCC (as does everybody else) believes that Spectrum 5 will never launch a satellite, and they're effectively squatting on the orbital slot hoping for a payoff before their authorization lapses when they fail to get that satellite up there.


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> I think the FCC (as does everybody else) believes that Spectrum 5 will never launch a satellite, and they're effectively squatting on the orbital slot hoping for a payoff before their authorization lapses when they fail to get that satellite up there.


That's my take on it, too. The FCC is basically telling Spectrum Five (without saying so out loud) to "s*!t or get off the pot," and in the meantime is allowing the RB-2A payload on D12 to go into its (limited) service. This might be viewed as an institutional "kicking the can down the road," and leaving the problem of resolving any conflict for the future if/when Ciel and/or Spectrum Five ever actually launch anything, but the net effect is to tell Spectrum Five to get on the stick and DO something with that authorization they have instead of continually filing silly paperwork.


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> That's my take on it, too. The FCC is basically telling Spectrum Five (without saying so out loud) to "s*!t or get off the pot," and in the meantime is allowing the RB-2A payload on D12 to go into its (limited) service. This might be viewed as an institutional "kicking the can down the road," and leaving the problem of resolving any conflict for the future if/when Ciel and/or Spectrum Five ever actually launch anything, but the net effect is to tell Spectrum Five to get on the stick and DO something with that authorization they have instead of continually filing silly paperwork.


You mean a government agency is applying common sense! The hell you say!


----------



## bobnielsen

Tom_S said:


> You mean a government agency is applying common sense! The hell you say!


Even lawyers can occasionally do the right thing


----------



## matt

rey_1178 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_analyzer


I can actually check one of these out from the engineering lab here at school. Wish I knew how to use it!


----------



## LameLefty

matt1124 said:


> I can actually check one of these out from the engineering lab here at school. Wish I knew how to use it!


Get ahold of an AT-9 or AU-9 dish and the appropriate Ka/Ku LNB, point that thing at 76º W, hook up the analyzer set to the appropriate frequency bands and see what you see.


----------



## mike_augie

I know that all of you on this forum is awesome and all I can say is that I cant wait til the festivals that Satelliteracer will start posting very soon ... lol


----------



## bobnielsen

mike_augie said:


> I know that all of you on this forum is awesome and all I can say is that I cant wait til the festivals that Satelliteracer will start posting very soon ... lol


An etymologist would probably say "festivi" :lol:


----------



## mike_augie

bobnielsen said:


> An etymologist would probably say "festivi" :lol:


you are perfectly correct , been a while since we have had a festivi party ... lol


----------



## GregLee

bobnielsen said:


> An etymologist would probably say "festivi" :lol:


I thought he called it a "festus" _q.v._, hence "festi". (Maybe it was "festivus", but that is celebrated on December 23, so let's hope not.)


----------



## steveken

GregLee said:


> (Maybe it was *"festivus"*, but that is celebrated on December 23, so let's hope not.)


Is it time for the airing of grievances yet?

I know, I know, back on topic. *shakes head*


----------



## curt8403

steveken said:


> Is it time for the airing of grievances yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is _That_ going to be one of the new HD channels that will be on the D12 sat?
Click to expand...


----------



## frederic1943

RobertE said:


> Give a man a fish, and he shall eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he shall eat for a lifetime.


Give a man a fish, and he shall eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can sit in his boat all day drinking beer while you fool around with his wife! :lol:


----------



## FHSPSU67

It is festivus, festivi. We don't need no stinkin calendar to tell us when festivi are


----------



## steveken

Ok, don't make Stuart lock the thread now.

I am guessing its still sitting there? I haven't looked at the TLE's in a while to see when they got it exactly where they wanted....that is IF they got it exactly in the right spot. I guess I will go do that now.


----------



## ATARI

frederic1943 said:


> Give a man a fish, and he shall eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he can sit in his boat all day drinking beer while you fool around with his wife! :lol:


Teach a man to make fire and he will be warm for the night; put a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.


----------



## ATARI

and now, :backtotop


----------



## jefbal99

steveken said:


> Ok, don't make Stuart lock the thread now.
> 
> I am guessing its still sitting there? I haven't looked at the TLE's in a while to see when they got it exactly where they wanted....that is IF they got it exactly in the right spot. I guess I will go do that now.


Latest TLE from Space Command:


Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10049.19529839 -.00000239  00000-0  10000-3 0   827
2 36131 000.0965 276.1994 0000367 016.4227 209.7080 01.00273417   597

which translates to

1#36131
Lon	75.9984° W
Lat	0.0333° N
Alt (km)	35 784.110
Name	#36131
NORAD #	36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2010-02-18 04:41:13
Orbit # at Epoch	59
Inclination	0.097
RA of A. Node	276.199
Eccentricity	0.0000367
Argument of Perigee	16.423
Revs per day	1.00273417
Period	23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 788 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	209.708
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	82 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## lwilli201

Am I reading the last TLE correct that the D12 is not quite parked yet?


----------



## LameLefty

lwilli201 said:


> Am I reading the last TLE correct that the D12 is not quite parked yet?


Nope. It's as "parked" as any other GSO satellite, with the minor exception of a somewhat larger-than-normal inclination. However, there are quite a few reasons why Directv might not be worried about that, not the least of which is the fact that the small residual inclination isn't interfering with the testing going on, as well as the fact that they are planning to slide the satellite out of the testing slot and drift it over to its operational slot slightly offset from 103ºW in a few weeks. The tiny bit of inclination may help them avoid infringing on any other satellite's operational volume during the move and subsequent re-parking; but in any case, the inclination is lower than it was and will be lower still shortly after the satellite moves to 103º, if not before.


----------



## curt8403

FHSPSU67 said:


> It is festivus, festivi. We don't need no stinkin calendar to tell us when festivi are


well, OK
at least we have a pole now.


----------



## lwilli201

LameLefty said:


> Nope. It's as "parked" as any other GSO satellite, with the minor exception of a somewhat larger-than-normal inclination. However, there are quite a few reasons why Directv might not be worried about that, not the least of which is the fact that the small residual inclination isn't interfering with the testing going on, as well as the fact that they are planning to slide the satellite out of the testing slot and drift it over to its operational slot slightly offset from 103ºW in a few weeks. The tiny bit of inclination may help them avoid infringing on any other satellite's operational volume during the move and subsequent re-parking; but in any case, the inclination is lower than it was and will be lower still shortly after the satellite moves to 103º, if not before.


Thanks. Makes sense. I would think it would not be possible to drift D12 to 103 if it were at 0.00 inclination without crashing into other GSO satallites. The current process would seems to be to save fuel.


----------



## P Smith

So far, many satellites did the positions change with inclination 0 "without crashing into other GSO satallites".


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> So far, many satellites did the positions change with inclination 0 "without crashing into other GSO satallites".


What is your point? You also didn't think testing could begin with inclinations of around 0.1º but that's what it was when Directv started.

(And inclination is NEVER exactly 0º, though it's often in the range of 0.01 - 0.03).


----------



## pjsauter

I have exactly zero inclination to stay at work any longer.


----------



## bobnielsen

lwilli201 said:


> Thanks. Makes sense. I would think it would not be possible to drift D12 to 103 if it were at 0.00 inclination without crashing into other GSO satallites. The current process would seems to be to save fuel.


In order to drift, it is necessary to raise the the orbit out of the Clarke belt (to move west) or lower it (to move east), so crashing would be unlikely. Also, Directv knows the location of other satellites in the area and considers that in calculating the precise path.


----------



## jefbal99

pjsauter said:


> I have exactly zero inclination to stay at work any longer.


golf clap


----------



## ATARI

pjsauter said:


> I have exactly zero inclination to stay at work any longer.


+1


----------



## uncrules

pjsauter said:


> I have exactly zero inclination to stay at work any longer.


----------



## smiddy

pjsauter said:


> I have exactly zero inclination to stay at work any longer.


!rolling Nice one!


----------



## AllenE

All that's missing from the last string of posts is the mass jailbreak. Or did it occur silently?


----------



## jefbal99

So, DirecTV has been testing for a week now. SatelliteRacer has indicated that "stuff" is ahead of schedule, any chance that the BSS testing will start early?

Would we see a new filing with the FCC because their last letter indicated 3/3 for the BSS testing?


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> So, DirecTV has been testing for a week now. SatelliteRacer has indicated that "stuff" is ahead of schedule, any chance that the BSS testing will start early?
> 
> Would we see a new filing with the FCC because their last letter indicated 3/3 for the BSS testing?


Educated guess is that "earlier" is the schedule that we are on now. Original schedule was possibly May.

April.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> So, DirecTV has been testing for a week now. SatelliteRacer has indicated that "stuff" is ahead of schedule, any chance that the BSS testing will start early?
> 
> Would we see a new filing with the FCC because their last letter indicated 3/3 for the BSS testing?


I suspect "stuff ahead of schedule" pertains to agreements and the final D12 activation date (only).


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect "stuff ahead of schedule" pertains to agreements and the final D12 activation date (only).


I agree, it probably means the whole program for D12 is ahead of schedule


----------



## Sixto

"On the satellite launch, we don't have any satellites after our D12, which was already launched. But I think now, we'll probably begin talking with our board about our satellite strategy not only for back up but then replacement. So we'll probably begin to see a time here where we'll procure a satellite and begin to spend some money on the manufacture satellite. It won't be big numbers but I think either maybe even later this year we might see that happening."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/189...-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> I haven't looked at the TLE's in a while to see when they got it exactly where they wanted....that is IF they got it exactly in the right spot. I guess I will go do that now.


Post#1 always has the latest location.

Will resume update posts when D12 starts moving again.


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

Sixto said:


> "On the satellite launch, we don't have any satellites after our D12, which was already launched. But I think now, we'll probably begin talking with our board about our satellite strategy not only for back up but then replacement. So we'll probably begin to see a time here where we'll procure a satellite and begin to spend some money on the manufacture satellite. It won't be big numbers but I think either maybe even later this year we might see that happening."
> 
> http://seekingalpha.com/article/189...-inc-q4-2009-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1


Yeah i read that too. Kinda bothered me there as it seemed to sound like they feel like with D12 they will have capicity to carry everything they could possibly want to in HD which from what ive gathered isn't the case. I understand D12 will take a large chunk out of the pie here but one would think DirecTV would think about the future a little more with expansion capabilities. Hopefully the launch of another satellite to be used as a backup and replace a old one will have greater capacity than the one it replaces to allow expansion.


----------



## dennisj00

For us amateurs, the 'Astronomy Picture of the Day' for Saturday, Feb.20, has a picture and great explanation of the 'GeoStationary Highway', the new home of D12.

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap100220.html or the iPhone app.


----------



## raoul5788

dennisj00 said:


> For us amateurs, the 'Astronomy Picture of the Day' for Saturday, Feb.20, has a picture and great explanation of the 'GeoStationary Highway', the new home of D12.
> 
> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap100220.html or the iPhone app.


I check that site every day, some very cool pictures!


----------



## gary900

My desktop background is usually a picture from that site.


----------



## BudShark

Sgt. Slaughter said:


> Yeah i read that too. Kinda bothered me there as it seemed to sound like they feel like with D12 they will have capicity to carry everything they could possibly want to in HD which from what ive gathered isn't the case. I understand D12 will take a large chunk out of the pie here but one would think DirecTV would think about the future a little more with expansion capabilities. Hopefully the launch of another satellite to be used as a backup and replace a old one will have greater capacity than the one it replaces to allow expansion.


There are 2 potential expansion strategies.

1) Satellites
2) Migration of all subs to MPEG-4 HD boxes, using the boxes output of SD where required.

Satellites are expensive to build and maintain, especially when you have a slew of bandwidth locked up in older technologies that are quickly dying. With D12, they are *nearly* replicating their entire SD lineup in MPEG-4 HD. Makes one start to wonder what the next step might be... Its not cheap to replace dishes and receivers and switches - but its also not cheap to commission, build, launch, insure, and support a satellite.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> There are 2 potential expansion strategies.
> 
> 1) Satellites
> 2) Migration of all subs to MPEG-4 HD boxes, using the boxes output of SD where required.
> 
> Satellites are expensive to build and maintain, especially when you have a slew of bandwidth locked up in older technologies that are quickly dying. With D12, they are *nearly* replicating their entire SD lineup in MPEG-4 HD. Makes one start to wonder what the next step might be... Its not cheap to replace dishes and receivers and switches - but its also not cheap to commission, build, launch, insure, and support a satellite.


Agree.

D12 will allow the beginning of any full transition to an MPEG4 broadcast paradigm, including an eventual migration away from MPEG2 (over time).


----------



## Tom Robertson

BudShark said:


> There are 2 potential expansion strategies.
> 
> 1) Satellites
> 2) Migration of all subs to MPEG-4 HD boxes, using the boxes output of SD where required.
> 
> Satellites are expensive to build and maintain, especially when you have a slew of bandwidth locked up in older technologies that are quickly dying. With D12, they are *nearly* replicating their entire SD lineup in MPEG-4 HD. Makes one start to wonder what the next step might be... Its not cheap to replace dishes and receivers and switches - but its also not cheap to commission, build, launch, insure, and support a satellite.


Here is the basic math (with a lot of slop!)

Another satellite where they still have bandwidth: $250-400M to build and launch. The still have some bandwidth by the way.

Replace 40M receivers to convert SD to MPEG4, $4B ($100 ea.) Note, at that level the hardware cost is perhaps $50-ish, but don't forget shipping, truck rolls for many people, training, support calls, etc.

Now, add in dish installs so everyone can get all the content and we're closer to $200 per customer on top of the $100 per receiver. Another couple billion.

I'd go with another satellite. 

Customers will slowly migrate themselves to HD. DIRECTV doesn't have to pay lots of money upgrading everyone to MPEG4 at DIRECTV expense--it will happen organically.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BudShark

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is the basic math (with a lot of slop!)
> 
> Another satellite where they still have bandwidth: $250-400M to build and launch. The still have some bandwidth by the way.
> 
> Replace 40M receivers to convert SD to MPEG4, $4B ($100 ea.) Note, at that level the hardware cost is perhaps $50-ish, but don't forget shipping, truck rolls for many people, training, support calls, etc.
> 
> Now, add in dish installs so everyone can get all the content and we're closer to $200 per customer on top of the $100 per receiver. Another couple billion.
> 
> I'd go with another satellite.
> 
> Customers will slowly migrate themselves to HD. DIRECTV doesn't have to pay lots of money upgrading everyone to MPEG4 at DIRECTV expense--it will happen organically.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ehhh... you're no fun Tom! 

I don't anticipate it happening that way. I do however anticipate a migration of all "movie" channels to MPEG-4 requiring an upgrade to those who wish to have these channels (similar to the cable channels migration to digital). Then a market move where the non-MPEG4 locals are shut off, maybe some RSN moves, etc. At some point, you get the outliers down so low that it can make sense to do. Plus, you are freeing bandwidth up as you do the areas - expanding your MPEG-4 footprint and reducing the MPEG-2.

So, I see it as a combination of 1 & 2. But just as they effectively shut off MPEG-2 HD, I see MPEG-2 SD being similarly shut off. New channels coming online only in MPEG-4. Markets or international or Movie channels being moved to MPEG-4. Eventually the 40M receivers you talk about is much lower.

So - do they do this instead of a satellite? No - I'd hope they both. But, there's still a lot of bandwidth out there for anyone that thinks they are "stuck" without another satellite set to launch. I guess thats more my point. 

Chris


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is the basic math (with a lot of slop!)
> 
> Another satellite where they still have bandwidth: $250-400M to build and launch. The still have some bandwidth by the way.
> 
> Replace 40M receivers to convert SD to MPEG4, $4B ($100 ea.) Note, at that level the hardware cost is perhaps $50-ish, but don't forget shipping, truck rolls for many people, training, support calls, etc.
> 
> Now, add in dish installs so everyone can get all the content and we're closer to $200 per customer on top of the $100 per receiver. Another couple billion.
> 
> I'd go with another satellite.
> 
> Customers will slowly migrate themselves to HD. DIRECTV doesn't have to pay lots of money upgrading everyone to MPEG4 at DIRECTV expense--it will happen organically.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


very good, but could we use the actual purchase cost for the HD units, as that is probably what Directv pays (The reason for the agreement is to recover the extra costs that D* supposedly pays for the units.)
HD (Non DVR) $399 HD DVR $499


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is the basic math (with a lot of slop!)
> 
> Another satellite where they still have bandwidth: $250-400M to build and launch. The still have some bandwidth by the way.
> 
> Replace 40M receivers to convert SD to MPEG4, $4B ($100 ea.) Note, at that level the hardware cost is perhaps $50-ish, but don't forget shipping, truck rolls for many people, training, support calls, etc.
> 
> Now, add in dish installs so everyone can get all the content and we're closer to $200 per customer on top of the $100 per receiver. Another couple billion.
> 
> I'd go with another satellite.
> 
> Customers will slowly migrate themselves to HD. DIRECTV doesn't have to pay lots of money upgrading everyone to MPEG4 at DIRECTV expense--it will happen organically.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What I'm really curious about is how much more is a MPEG4 decoder chip vs. the MPEG2 chip? What I'm getting at is what would be the price delta for building a SD box that didn't have HD outputs, didn't have Ka band tuners, just a D12 box that could decode MPEG4. Are we talking a $50, $25 or $5 difference? If we're talking a $5 or even $10 difference wouldn't it make sense to start rolling out MPEG2/4 boxes now to position themselves for an eventual all MPEG4 system? I'm just guessing that it can't be that much of a difference anymore since Charlie is doing that now at Dish.


----------



## bobnielsen

In the 2008 Shareholder presentation, a plan was shown which indicated that SD DVRs were to be discontinued in 2008, with SD non-DVR receivers no longer being supplied at some point in 2009. While this schedule has obviously changed, I suspect that at some point only HD-capable equipment will be supplied so that attrition will partially take care of the changeover.


----------



## curt8403

bobnielsen said:


> In the 2008 Shareholder presentation, a plan was shown which indicated that SD DVRs were to be discontinued in 2008, with SD non-DVR receivers no longer being supplied at some point in 2009. While this schedule has obviously changed, I suspect that at some point only HD-capable equipment will be supplied so that attrition will partially take care of the changeover.


 I remember that info, but with today's economy, and etc, Pigs will fly before SD is phased out. (No disrespect intended for you bobnielsen)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

curt8403 said:


> I remember that info, but with today's economy, and etc, *Pigs will fly before SD is phased out*. (No disrespect intended for you bobnielsen)


I smell flying bacon in the next 2 years.


----------



## Tom Robertson

We'll know when the clock starts on MPEG2 phase out. When the last D* model receiver is sold. At that point, we know the plan has started.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

RAD said:


> What I'm really curious about is how much more is a MPEG4 decoder chip vs. the MPEG2 chip? What I'm getting at is what would be the price delta for building a SD box that didn't have HD outputs, didn't have Ka band tuners, just a D12 box that could decode MPEG4. Are we talking a $50, $25 or $5 difference? If we're talking a $5 or even $10 difference wouldn't it make sense to start rolling out MPEG2/4 boxes now to position themselves for an eventual all MPEG4 system? I'm just guessing that it can't be that much of a difference anymore since Charlie is doing that now at Dish.


I've seen from Broadcom official announcments:
- $60 for 7038 [MPEG-2]
- $45.90 for 7400 [MPEG-4]
- 7401 and 7402 and are priced at $30 and $27 [MPEG-4]

Definitely the cost of DVR/STB goes down - I would estimate current price as 1/2 of price in 2005. 
Just compare a cost of couple components: the main chip and hard drive.

I would add a competitive prices between 6 or so companies who does all that design and SW development independently.


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I smell flying bacon in the next 2 years.


maybe when SD is phased out, they can refocus the old satellite beams to focus on the flying pigs, and indeed we will have flying bacon.


----------



## cartrivision

bobnielsen said:


> In the 2008 Shareholder presentation, a plan was shown which indicated that SD DVRs were to be discontinued in 2008, with SD non-DVR receivers no longer being supplied at some point in 2009. While this schedule has obviously changed, I suspect that at some point only HD-capable equipment will be supplied so that attrition will partially take care of the changeover.
> 
> 
> 
> curt8403 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I remember that info, but with today's economy, and etc, Pigs will fly before SD is phased out. (No disrespect intended for you bobnielsen)
Click to expand...

DirecTV will phase out MPEG2 SD, make no mistake about that. The phase out just didn't start on what appeared to be the schedule of their original migration plan which implied that only MPEG4 capable equipment would be installed in 2009 and beyond. That clearly hasn't happened, but it will happen well before pigs fly.


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> very good, but could we use the actual purchase cost for the HD units, as that is probably what Directv pays (The reason for the agreement is to recover the extra costs that D* supposedly pays for the units.)
> HD (Non DVR) $399 HD DVR $499


There is no chance in hell that DirecTV pays those prices.


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> very good, but could we use the actual purchase cost for the HD units, as that is probably what Directv pays (The reason for the agreement is to recover the extra costs that D* *supposedly pays* for the units.)
> *HD (Non DVR) $399 HD DVR $499*


It was 6 years ago, now the prices should be half of that.


----------



## bobminges

Washington, D.C. (February 19, 2010) -- DIRECTV said yesterday that it plans to expand its Pay Per View lineup to nearly 400 titles sometime in the spring.

"We'll introduce DIRECTV CINEMA later this spring, an exciting new movie service....

I remember DIRECTV-11 and offering 35 HD channels a summer ago... of those 30 were Directv Cinema HD

SatelliteRacer has indicated that "stuff" is ahead of schedule. I hope this isn't what he meant.......


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> We'll know when the clock starts on MPEG2 phase out. When the last D* model receiver is sold. At that point, we know the plan has started.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I guess that depends on your definition of "started". The phaseout of MPEG2 essentially started with the plan to deploy MPEG4 equipment, and will include many steps over many years. An actual reduction in the total number of active MPEG2 receivers may or may not not have taken place yet, and as part of the phaseout plans, they will eventually stop installing MPEG2 receivers to speed up the process. Another step will be to at some point start providing some premium SD programming in MPEG4 format only.


----------



## Beerstalker

They are already kind of doing this is some markets today. People that have their SD local channels coming off the 72.5 satellite can call in and have all of their equipment upgraded to MPEG-4 equipment for free. That is because they are going to stop sending their local channels in SD and only offer them in HD off the other 3 sats at 99, 101, and 103. The MPEG-4 boxes then downconvert them to SD and either letterbox or crop the HD channel.

Evidently they can set the HD boxes so they are unable to tune into any of the HD channels except for your local channels. That way they still can force you to pay the $10 HD Access fee.

I could see D* continuing this kind of process in other markets after they are done with the 72.5 markets. For example take all of the markets that get their SD locals off of the 99 sat and start converting them all over to MPEG-4 equipment. Once all of those LiL customers have converted they could stop sending out the SD local channels on that sat. Then the 101 sat, then 103, etc. Once all of the locals have been changed over that would probably take care of 90% or so of their customers and they would then just convert the rest over.


----------



## BudShark

Good info. I don't want to derail this thread though on our guestimates for plans. I really just meant to say "D12 is not the end of the bandwidth plan for D* - even if there isn't another sat ready to launch".

back to topic... Hopefully the testing is going well!


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> I guess that depends on your definition of "started". The phaseout of MPEG2 essentially started with the plan to deploy MPEG4 equipment, and will include many steps over many years. An actual reduction in the total number of active MPEG2 receivers may or may not not have taken place yet, and as part of the phaseout plans, they will eventually stop installing MPEG2 receivers to speed up the process. Another step will be to at some point start providing some premium SD programming in MPEG4 format only.


Yeah, you and I have been around this several times.

All the baby crawls to date are pretty small. They would have been done regardless.

That's why I continue to say the true bellwether will be when the last MPEG2 only receiver is sold. That will be a clear demarcation between the past and the future.

Creating the R22 almost was a bellwether. Then it got pulled back.

So... in my mind the clock hasn't really started. They've just done their normal business so far.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

BudShark said:


> Good info. I don't want to derail this thread though on our guestimates for plans. I really just meant to say "D12 is not the end of the bandwidth plan for D* - even if there isn't another sat ready to launch".
> 
> back to topic... Hopefully the testing is going well!


Yup, they still got room at 99°


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Yeah, you and I have been around this several times.
> 
> All the baby crawls to date are pretty small. They would have been done regardless.
> 
> That's why I continue to say the true bellwether will be when the last MPEG2 only receiver is sold. That will be a clear demarcation between the past and the future.
> 
> Creating the R22 almost was a bellwether. Then it got pulled back.
> 
> So... in my mind the clock hasn't really started. They've just done their normal business so far.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I would agree that when they completely stop deploying MPEG2 receivers is when they really get serious about phasing out MPEG2, and even after that happens it will be many many years before all the SD core programming is provided in MPEG4 only. My guess is that there will be several more satellites deployed to expand MPEG4 service before the the core MPEG2 transmissions can be shut down and those satellites be use to expand MPEG4 services.


----------



## raoul5788

Beerstalker said:


> They are already kind of doing this is some markets today. People that have their SD local channels coming off the 72.5 satellite can call in and have all of their equipment upgraded to MPEG-4 equipment for free. That is because they are going to stop sending their local channels in SD and only offer them in HD off the other 3 sats at 99, 101, and 103. The MPEG-4 boxes then downconvert them to SD and either letterbox or crop the HD channel.
> 
> Evidently they can set the HD boxes so they are unable to tune into any of the HD channels except for your local channels. That way they still can force you to pay the $10 HD Access fee.


The locals coming from 99 or 103 in mpeg4 are sd, not hd.


----------



## LameLefty

raoul5788 said:


> The locals coming from 99 or 103 in mpeg4 are sd, not hd.


Uh, no. They most certainly are not. There are SOME MPEG4 locals in SD-only, but the vast majority are HD.


----------



## Beerstalker

Then where are my local channels coming from? The way I understood it my HD locals have always been on 99. The SD (MPEG2) locals in my area used to come off 72. They have since shut off Peoria SD (MPEG2) locals on 72. People who get local channels in the Peoria DMA tune to the HD (MPEG4) channel coming off of 99 and have the receiver down convert it to SD. D* no longer has SD (MPEG2) locals for Peoria (except the local channels that only broadcast in SD of course but they are still in MPEG4).


----------



## LameLefty

Beerstalker said:


> Then where are my local channels coming from? The way I understood it my HD locals have always been on 99. The SD (MPEG2) locals in my area used to come off 72. They have since shut off Peoria SD (MPEG2) locals on 72. People who get local channels in the Peoria DMA tune to the HD (MPEG4) channel coming off of 99 and have the receiver down convert it to SD. D* no longer has SD (MPEG2) locals for Peoria (except the local channels that only broadcast in SD of course but they are still in MPEG4).


Smaller markets are different, but the great majority of Directv LIL customers have SD locals in MPEG2 from 101, and HD locals in MPEG4 from 99 or 103.


----------



## Sixto

With Ka testing now more then a week old, hopefully some folks in El Segundo are now very happy with what they see.

Hopefully. (fingers crossed, knock on wood, ...).


----------



## RAD

I thought tme main reason for testing at this location was for the R2A payload?


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> I thought tme main reason for testing at this location was for the R2A payload?


In the FCC filing, testing started 2/13, BSS testing starts 3/3.

Details from original request:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395​


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> I thought tme main reason for testing at this location was for the R2A payload?


To followup on Sixto's reply, since 103 is an active slot now, DIRECTV really can't test the KA stuff there. There could be interference with existing services (in this case their own!) 

Once D12 is proven to play well, then it can move home.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

maybe they will have to tag D12 as "Does not play well with Others" :hair:


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> In the FCC filing, testing started 2/13, BSS testing starts 3/3.
> 
> Details from original request:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395​





Tom Robertson said:


> To followup on Sixto's reply, since 103 is an active slot now, DIRECTV really can't test the KA stuff there. There could be interference with existing services (in this case their own!)
> 
> Once D12 is proven to play well, then it can move home.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK, I just thought I saw in some of the Spectrum 5 stuff that DirecTV was saying they really needed to test at 76 was for the R2A payload since they had only the one earth station and needed to test there.


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> maybe they will have to tag D12 as "Does not play well with Others" :hair:


I sure hope they don't. Then we'd have to wait for D12R to be built, launched, tested, moved, etc. Big OUCH!


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> OK, I just thought I saw in some of the Spectrum 5 stuff that DirecTV was saying they really needed to test at 76 was for the R2A payload since they had only the one earth station and needed to test there.


True, but also makes a great spot to test non-BSS as well. And they're almost 10 days into it!


----------



## Beerstalker

LameLefty said:


> Smaller markets are different, but the great majority of Directv LIL customers have SD locals in MPEG2 from 101, and HD locals in MPEG4 from 99 or 103.


Yeah, I just looked at it and it looks like most MPEG2 SD locals come off of 72, 119, or 101. So I'm thinking after the 72 markets are switched over they might start on the 119 markets. That way they can get away from the 5LNB setup in more areas.

Then finally the 101 locals. I would assume once the MPEG 2 SD locals were removed from 101 they could then change those transponders over and use them to send out MPEG4 HD locals to more markets?

I assume that the spotbeams on D12 will give them room for the HD channels from the markets off 119, and 101 that don't have HD available yet. Allowing these changes to be made over time.

Then once all LiL markets are switched to MPEG4 they can shut off MPEG2 SD altogether and just rely on the boxes downscaling MPEG4 HD to SD as needed.


----------



## kevinwmsn

LameLefty said:


> Smaller markets are different, but the great majority of Directv LIL customers have SD locals in MPEG2 from 101, and HD locals in MPEG4 from 99 or 103.


There's also good number folks with SD Locals on 119.


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> I sure hope they don't. Then we'd have to wait for D12R to be built, launched, tested, moved, etc. Big OUCH!


 my comment was intended as a joke. I am sure that D12 will get along just fabulously with D10 and Spaceways 1. We should put a gold star on it's forehead


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> OK, I just thought I saw in some of the Spectrum 5 stuff that DirecTV was saying they really needed to test at 76 was for the R2A payload since they had only the one earth station and needed to test there.


Spectrum 5 is one of those sources that one shouldn't put much faith in... 

Spectrum 5 said many things, mostly to try and deny DIRECTV's right to do business. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> Uh, no. They most certainly are not. There are SOME MPEG4 locals in SD-only, but the vast majority are HD.


:blush: Sorry, I should have been much more specific. The locals on 99 and 103 that moved from 72.5 are in sd.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Beerstalker said:


> Yeah, I just looked at it and it looks like most MPEG2 SD locals come off of 72, 119, or 101. So I'm thinking after the 72 markets are switched over they might start on the 119 markets. That way they can get away from the 5LNB setup in more areas.
> 
> Then finally the 101 locals. I would assume once the MPEG 2 SD locals were removed from 101 they could then change those transponders over and use them to send out MPEG4 HD locals to more markets?
> 
> I assume that the spotbeams on D12 will give them room for the HD channels from the markets off 119, and 101 that don't have HD available yet. Allowing these changes to be made over time.
> 
> Then once all LiL markets are switched to MPEG4 they can shut off MPEG2 SD altogether and just rely on the boxes downscaling MPEG4 HD to SD as needed.


Interesting analysis.

I suspect that as long as DIRECTV has a satellite that can broadcast spots at 119°, they will continue to use it. DIRECTV still can keep a single dish solution there and the 5lnb is likely not a problem for their distribution channel.

Now, perhaps that is a longer-term strategy, removing all locals from 119 to provide purely national coverage of international channels? Something to consider. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Beerstalker

raoul5788 said:


> :blush: Sorry, I should have been much more specific. The locals on 99 and 103 that moved from 72.5 are in sd.


So you are saying that Peoria still has SD locals they just moved them from MPEG2 on 72 to MPEG 4 on 99 (and the MPEG4 HD locals are still on 99)? Why would D* waste the bandwidth for MPEG4 SD locals when the MPEG4 boxes can easily take the HD MPEG4 signal and ouput it as SD either cropped or letterboxed?



Tom Robertson said:


> Interesting analysis.
> 
> I suspect that as long as DIRECTV has a satellite that can broadcast spots at 119°, they will continue to use it. DIRECTV still can keep a single dish solution there and the 5lnb is likely not a problem for their distribution channel.
> 
> Now, perhaps that is a longer-term strategy, removing all locals from 119 to provide purely national coverage of international channels? Something to consider.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yeah, I figured they would continue to use 110 and 119 for international channels. I'm not sure what they would do with the spotbeams after they were cleared out though.


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> Spectrum 5 is one of those sources that one shouldn't put much faith in...
> 
> Spectrum 5 said many things, mostly to try and deny DIRECTV's right to do business.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


It was DirecTV's responses to Spectrum 5's filings with the FCC as to why they should deny FCC's request to block the testing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I think that was because Spectrum 5's comments were all about testing RB2A at 76° as unnecessary. Spectrum 5 is trying to deny DIRECTV any ability to use RB2 or RB2A at 103°. (And anywhere else for that matter.) 

So DIRECTV made the point that RB2A must be tested at 76° (along with the Ka package testing there) because once the Ka package is tested at 76° and the bird moved to 103° DIRECTV could not jeopardize Ka operations by testing RB2A. 

Since Spectrum 5 wasn't contesting DIRECTV's Ka testing at 76°, DIRECTV wasn't responding.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> I think that was because Spectrum 5's comments were all about testing RB2A at 76° as unnecessary. Spectrum 5 is trying to deny DIRECTV any ability to use RB2 or RB2A at 103°. (And anywhere else for that matter.)
> 
> So DIRECTV made the point that RB2A must be tested at 76° (along with the Ka package testing there) because once the Ka package is tested at 76° and the bird moved to 103° DIRECTV could not jeopardize Ka operations by testing RB2A.
> 
> Since Spectrum 5 wasn't contesting DIRECTV's Ka testing at 76°, DIRECTV wasn't responding.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK, I was going from http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...oc+spectrum+five+fcc&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"On December 23, 2009, Spectrum Five filed an opposition to one application related to DIRECTV's in-orbit testing operations of the DIRECTV RB-2A space station in the 17/24 GHz BSS frequency bands.4 In its filing, Spectrum Five states that DIRECTV's request should be denied because DIRECTV failed to make the requisite showing under Section 25.120 of the Commission's rules.5 Spectrum Five further argues that testing at the 76° W.L. orbital location "is not necessary to determine the health and security of the satellite."6 In Spectrum Five's view, testing can be safely accomplished at the assigned location of 102.765° W.L. orbital location, or any other orbital location.7 Spectrum Five further notes that the power level of the 17/24 GHz BSS space station during testing would exceed the technical parameters of the regular authority by up to 8.4 dB.8 Spectrum Five does not allege that DIRECTV's in-orbit testing operations will cause unacceptable interference to any other authorized radio communication services. Further, Spectrum Five does not allege that it operates any authorized radio communications facilities in this frequency band.9 In response, DIRECTV disputes that in-orbit testing can occur at any orbital location and at any time.10 _ DIRECTV indicates that during the in-orbit testing, the DIRECTV 12/RB-2A satellite will be biased (or oriented) in such a way that the transmit antenna beams are positioned directly over the associated earth station(s) utilized for this testing.11 DIRECTV states that the satellite cannot be biased in this manner once the satellite commences Ka-band operations at the 102.765° W.L. orbital location. _"

That's why I said I thought that the main reason for testin at 76 was for R2A's payload.


----------



## raoul5788

Beerstalker said:


> So you are saying that Peoria still has SD locals they just moved them from MPEG2 on 72 to MPEG 4 on 99 (and the MPEG4 HD locals are still on 99)?


That's my understanding. I _could_ be wrong!


----------



## Beerstalker

raoul5788 said:


> That's my understanding. I _could_ be wrong!


I guess you could be right, but that doesn't make any sense to me. The would have to take the OTA HiDef feed and then transcode it to MPEG4. They would then have to take that transocde and downscale it to SD. Then transmit the two different MPEG4 streams to the satellite, and then back down.

Or I guess they could take the OTA HD feed and downscale it then transcode to MPEG4. Then send both streams.

I don't know why they would go through the extra work if they can just send out the MPEG4 HD feed and let the boxes handle it.

Or if they were going to do that why not just move the MPEG2 stream to 99 or 101 so they don't have to change everyone's boxes over to MPEG4 equipment. They would just downscale the HD OTA feed and send it out as MPEG2 like they do for other SD locals off 101/119.

I'll have to look into it more when I get home. I'm fairly certain there is only one channel for each station though, instead of 2 channels like there usually is for the HD and SD version of a channel.


----------



## curt8403

all this waiting to hear about the testing... :bang


----------



## Mike Bertelson

curt8403 said:


> all this waiting to hear about the testing... :bang


What else are they supposed to be doing? :shrug:

I can't wait for it to be done though. 

Mike


----------



## jefbal99

according to the FCC filing, the BSS testing starts a week from wednesday


----------



## evan_s

raoul5788 said:


> That's my understanding. I _could_ be wrong!


I believe that for the 72.5 local markets that if there is an hd version of the channel that is all there is but if it is only carried in sd that it is in MPEG 4 in sd. I can't see why they would want a hd and sd version of the channel coming from the same spot when all the receivers they are deploying, in those markets, are capable of decoding the hd version.


----------



## raoul5788

evan_s said:


> I believe that for the 72.5 local markets that if there is an hd version of the channel that is all there is but if it is only carried in sd that it is in MPEG 4 in sd. I can't see why they would want a hd and sd version of the channel coming from the same spot when all the receivers they are deploying, in those markets, are capable of decoding the hd version.


Good point, similar to the one that beerstalker made. It sounds like maybe I have it half right, which is about par for the course!


----------



## evan_s

Beerstalker said:


> Yeah, I just looked at it and it looks like most MPEG2 SD locals come off of 72, 119, or 101. So I'm thinking after the 72 markets are switched over they might start on the 119 markets. That way they can get away from the 5LNB setup in more areas.
> 
> Then finally the 101 locals. I would assume once the MPEG 2 SD locals were removed from 101 they could then change those transponders over and use them to send out MPEG4 HD locals to more markets?
> 
> I assume that the spotbeams on D12 will give them room for the HD channels from the markets off 119, and 101 that don't have HD available yet. Allowing these changes to be made over time.
> 
> Then once all LiL markets are switched to MPEG4 they can shut off MPEG2 SD altogether and just rely on the boxes downscaling MPEG4 HD to SD as needed.


I think the general idea is right and directv will phase it in a bit at a time but I don't think locals from 119 or 101 will be early on. The problem is switching over locals on 119/101 doesn't get directv a whole lot. If they want more sd locals they can just put new markets up on 99/103 it's simpler and cheaper than converting over existing markets and the freed up bandwidth on existing spots doesn't necessarily correspond to where they need bandwidth for new locals anyway.

My prediction for the next thing to go MPEG4 only is international channels. They are virtually the same situation as the 72.5 locals. A relatively limited number of subscribers, using a different and possibly additional dish/multiswitch, with space that is rented. Getting those over to Mpeg 4 on someplace else allows them the same benefits as getting the locals off 72.5. No longer have to rent the sat and no longer have to deal with the extra/different dish. I think they will probably end up on the space freed up from the mpeg2 hd channels on 110/119 but that really is a minor point.

After that I think you will probably see things like sunday ticket converted to mpeg4 only. Once again a relatively limited number of subscribers and has the immediate benefit of not needing the conus bandwidth on 101 which I assume replaces SD PPV at that time. Most of the other sports packs won't tho because they are just remaps of RSNs. They have already required SD sunday ticket subs to replace the oldest of the SD receivers because they changed the guide data so really old sd receivers didn't know about the channels anymore.

After stuff like that we may see things like the premium movie channels next but I'm not sure about that one. 119 locals may make sense at some point particularly if they have any markets that have los issues due to the location. Other than that I suspect the 101 locals will be one of the last things converted over right before the end of mpeg2 as a whole. These are generally the oldest markets which also means the larger DMAs and the most number of legacy receivers so you get to it as late in the process as you can.

Keep in mind if they have converted all locals to mpeg 4 they are basically done with the conversion because any customer that has locals, which is probably most of them, or DNS, assuming they have been converted too, has had all their receivers replaced with mpeg 4 capable boxes and there aren't enough people left over who don't fall into one of those 2 categories to prevent the complete conversion.


----------



## P Smith

In real life international has lowest priority in any changes. Money dictates.


----------



## evan_s

P Smith said:


> In real life international has lowest priority in any changes. Money dictates.


I don't disagree you that international channels are a low priority but I do think it will still happen. Not because it could allow better quality on the channels or any possible benefit to the customers but because renting sat space and dealing with the special international dish makes it more costly to leave them as is the long run than to move them elsewhere. In the past they needed to rent the sat space to be able to carry them anyway because they really didn't have anywhere else to put them.

With the SL3 pretty widely deployed they aren't going to use 110/119 for HD and the Core SD is still located on 101. 110/119 is a good match for the international channels and actually already has the Spanish and Jadeworld channels. I predict Mpeg4 instead of Mpeg 2 mainly because I don't think they would have enough bandwidth to move all of the other international channels over otherwise.

Just like the 72.5 locals switch or the hd switch, it will take time with them first announcing what will happen. Then starting to do new installs using the new equipment. Then they will start converting over existing installs. Finally starting to turn off the old mpeg 2 channels in groups (probably by the various languages they offer international channels for).


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> I predict Mpeg4 instead of Mpeg 2 mainly because I don't think they would have enough bandwidth to move all of the other international channels over otherwise.


The thing is, at SD bitrates MPEG4 doesn't provide very much savings over MPEG2. If they put the channels at 99 or 103, they might as well make them MPEG4 since all of DirecTV's Ka-capable receivers are also MPEG4-capable. But if they put them at 101, 110, or 119, I would expect MPEG2.

I also don't expect to ever see a migration of the current MPEG2 SD channels to MPEG4. There's no reason to waste bandwidth on SD duplicates if they're going to be MPEG4, since the receiver can just downconvert the HD version. News Corp. won't even be sending out SD versions of their channels after this year, and I'm sure other content providers won't be far behind.


----------



## JeffBowser

This is why "HD channel" counts will be a thing of the past soon enough. They will revert back to "channels"



Jeremy W said:


> . News Corp. won't even be sending out SD versions of their channels after this year, and I'm sure other content providers won't be far behind.


----------



## kevinwmsn

We might be then counting channels and 3D Channels, if the 3D Channel catches on


----------



## evan_s

Jeremy W said:


> The thing is, at SD bitrates MPEG4 doesn't provide very much savings over MPEG2. If they put the channels at 99 or 103, they might as well make them MPEG4 since all of DirecTV's Ka-capable receivers are also MPEG4-capable. But if they put them at 101, 110, or 119, I would expect MPEG2.
> 
> I also don't expect to ever see a migration of the current MPEG2 SD channels to MPEG4. There's no reason to waste bandwidth on SD duplicates if they're going to be MPEG4, since the receiver can just downconvert the HD version. News Corp. won't even be sending out SD versions of their channels after this year, and I'm sure other content providers won't be far behind.


MPEG-4 is still capable of reducing the bandwidth of SD content when compared to MPEG-2. You see this all of the time on the internet with streaming video. Current flash video is essentially MPEG-4. If MPEG-2 worked just as well and since it doesn't require as much processing power on the computer to play they wouldn't be bothering to use MPEG-4 for YouTube, etc. They would just be cutting out potential viewers for no benefit. The reality is that MPEG-4 produces lower bit rates for comparable quality or better quality at the same bit rate than MPEG-2 at SD and even lower resolutions.

Not that it's always accurate but wikipedia even includes a notation: "Digital Satellite TV quality, for example, was reported to be achievable at 1.5 Mbit/s, compared to the current operation point of MPEG 2 video at around 3.5 Mbit/s." This would have to be SD sat service as that is well below HD bitrates. At those bit rates you'd be able to replace 3 mpeg-2 channels with 7 mpeg-4 channels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Applications

I never stated or implied that they would have SD and HD duplicates in Mpeg-4 just that SD channels would be converted to MPEG-4 instead of MPEG-2. Having Mpeg-4 versions of a channel in both HD and SD currently, and likely never will, make sense as any box capable of handling Mpeg-4 can handle hd and just convert it down for display.


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> Not that it's always accurate but wikipedia even includes a notation: "Digital Satellite TV quality, for example, was reported to be achievable at 1.5 Mbit/s, compared to the current operation point of MPEG 2 video at around 3.5 Mbit/s." This would have to be SD sat service as that is well below HD bitrates. At those bit rates you'd be able to replace 3 mpeg-2 channels with 7 mpeg-4 channels.


Is DirecTV actually sending out MPEG2 at 3.5mbps though? I thought it was around 1.5.


evan_s said:


> I never stated or implied that they would have SD and HD duplicates in Mpeg-4 just that SD channels would be converted to MPEG-4 instead of MPEG-2.


I know, that second part was meant to be a separate thought, not a continued reply to you. I guess I should have made that more clear.


----------



## raoul5788

Jeremy W said:


> If they put the channels at 99 or 103, they might as well make them MPEG4 since all of DirecTV's Ka-capable receivers are also MPEG4-capable.


I thought the lnb was the only part of the chain that was ka dependent, and the receiver/dvr mpeg4.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> The thing is, at SD bitrates MPEG4 doesn't provide very much savings over MPEG2.


I really wish I knew where this information was coming from, because it doesn't jive with what I've read.

I've read multiple reports of around 50%.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'd like to have a good source to read which contradicts what I've read multiple times. I recently told someone something about Dish Network which was incorrect, and was informed otherwise. I don't want to go around saying something incorrect, but until I know otherwise, I'm going to go with the information I've read multiple times before.



Jeremy W said:


> If they put the channels at 99 or 103, they might as well make them MPEG4 since all of DirecTV's Ka-capable receivers are also MPEG4-capable. But if they put them at 101, 110, or 119, I would expect MPEG2.


If DirecTV decides to do another large transition (ala 72.5) where a new dish might be required... such as the international channels, I'd like to think that they are forward thinking enough to offer them in MPEG4.



Jeremy W said:


> I also don't expect to ever see a migration of the current MPEG2 SD channels to MPEG4. There's no reason to waste bandwidth on SD duplicates if they're going to be MPEG4, since the receiver can just downconvert the HD version. News Corp. won't even be sending out SD versions of their channels after this year, and I'm sure other content providers won't be far behind.


Honestly, I'm somewhat surprised that in some markets with a smaller group of channels (like Tallahassee, FL), DirecTV doesn't simulcast the remaining SD channels on the KA satellite with the HD feeds. They currently carry every HD simulcast of the locals DirecTV carries outside of WFSU (PBS-HD uplinked in testing mode for months now) and WTLF which is only available in SD.

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

raoul5788 said:


> I thought the lnb was the only part of the chain that was ka dependent, and the receiver/dvr mpeg4.


In the very strictest sense, yes the LNB is really the only thing that has to differentiate between Ka and Ku. But in DirecTV's reality, the frequencies that the LNBs send out are different for Ka and Ku, and Ka uses a different transmission standard (DVB-S2) than Ku (DSS).

So even if DirecTV put up MPEG2 programming on the Ka satellites, the MPEG2-only receivers still wouldn't be able to see it.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Thanks Evan S...



Jeremy W said:


> Is DirecTV actually sending out MPEG2 at 3.5mbps though? I thought it was around 1.5.


If it's 1.5mbps, then by using MPEG4, DirecTV could (theoretically) increase the quality using the same amount of bandwidth... or use MPEG4 to cut that amount even lower.

Dish Network's Eastern Arc... isn't that MPEG4?

~Alan


----------



## evan_s

Jeremy W said:


> Is DirecTV actually sending out MPEG2 at 3.5mbps though? I thought it was around 1.5.


I have no idea what DirecTV's current bit rate is for the MPEG2 sd channels but even if it is already 1.5 mbps they should be able to reduce that down to roughly half that and maintain approximately the same quality. At extremely low bit rates I believe Mpeg-4 generally does better than that because it received a fair amount of optimization for Internet streaming usage which is heavily bandwidth sensitive. Also one of the advantages of Mpeg-4 compression is you are much less likely to see macro-blocking at low bit rates and instead it just looks blurrier which is generally a lot less noticeable.


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> I really wish I knew where this information was coming from, because it doesn't jive with what I've read.
> 
> I've read multiple reports of around 50%.
> 
> I'm not saying it's wrong, but I'd like to have a good source to read which contradicts what I've read multiple times.


And everything *I've* read says that MPEG4 is great for higher bitrates and very low bitrates, but not so much in the middle. Still better than MPEG2, but not by that much.

I'm far from an authority on this topic, and I'm open to the fact that I could be wrong. I'd also like to see some authoritative information on this.


----------



## evan_s

raoul5788 said:


> I thought the lnb was the only part of the chain that was ka dependent, and the receiver/dvr mpeg4.


Yes and no. There is nothing special about the Ka bands that would require something in the receiver but in the legacy stack plan MPEG 2 receivers are unable to access any of the Ka sats because they are in new locations above and below the 101/110/119 signals they know how to access. If they had used some other stack plan with that might be different.

Theoretically, A D12 or R16 on a SWM system should be able to receive TPs from 99/103 and should be able to decode a Mpeg2 channel if there was one placed there but given the very limited number of receivers meeting this particular set of requirements I doubt it will happen. There might be something in the coding method or error correction used that might mess this up tho.


----------



## evan_s

Alan Gordon said:


> Dish Network's Eastern Arc... isn't that MPEG4


That is my understanding. Dish's Eastern Arc is all MPEG4 even for the SD only content they have.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> And everything *I've* read says that MPEG4 is great for higher bitrates and very low bitrates, but not so much in the middle. Still better than MPEG2, but not by that much.


Obviously, you're going to see bigger gains from high bitrate material (HD), but as I've said, I've seen numbers around 50% for SD material as well. I'm wanting to say one thing I read stated a difference with MPEG4 SD numbers depending on whether QPSK or 8PSK was used... which (of course) showed greater gains when used in conjunction with 8PSK.



Jeremy W said:


> *I'm far from an authority on this topic, and I'm open to the fact that I could be wrong.* I'd also like to see some authoritative information on this.


+1

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

evan_s said:


> That is my understanding. Dish's Eastern Arc is all MPEG4 even for the SD only content they have.


It's obvious that Dish Network used MPEG4 to help them conserve space on the Eastern Arc... along with not providing SD duplicates of HD material offered there, and of course, downrezzed HD.

~Alan


----------



## cartrivision

Alan Gordon said:


> It's obvious that Dish Network used MPEG4 to help them conserve space on the Eastern Arc... along with not providing SD duplicates of HD material offered there, and of course, downrezzed HD.
> 
> ~Alan


That's where the biggest bandwidth savings can be had by any provider... by using a single HD transmission for HD customers, and using the same transmission for SD customers by cropping (or letterboxing) and downrezing it. That completely eliminates the need for any bandwidth for a SD version of a channel.


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm wanting to say one thing I read stated a difference with MPEG4 SD numbers depending on whether QPSK or 8PSK was used... which (of course) showed greater gains when used in conjunction with 8PSK.


Now that I can authoritatively say is not true. :grin: The modulation scheme (which is what QPSK and 8PSK are) only tells you the raw bitrate available for a given transponder width. The only thing that change the usable bitrate is the FEC. The modulation scheme has nothing to do with the codec, and vice versa.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> Now that I can authoritatively say is not true. :grin: The modulation scheme (which is what QPSK and 8PSK are) only tells you the raw bitrate available for a given transponder width. The only thing that change the usable bitrate is the FEC. The modulation scheme has nothing to do with the codec, and vice versa.


It was from an article about Tandberg MPEG4 encoders. There were separate results from QPSK and 8PSK use. They were able to fit more HD (and SD) channels by using 8PSK compared to QPSK.

Didn't Dish Network switch to 8PSK years ago in order to use their bandwidth more efficiently...

~Alan


----------



## evan_s

Alan Gordon said:


> It was from an article about Tandberg MPEG4 encoders. There were separate results from QPSK and 8PSK use. They were able to fit more HD (and SD) channels by using 8PSK compared to QPSK.
> 
> Didn't Dish Network switch to 8PSK years ago in order to use their bandwidth more efficiently...
> 
> ~Alan


That would be true but it is due entirely to the fact the 8PSK is a more efficient coding scheme that gives you more usable bandwidth than QPSK does. The same would be true for MPEG2 channels too. The disadvantage is it more sensitive to noise issues.

DirecTV does use 8PSK for KA spots but not for conus from what I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8PSK#Higher-order_PSK


----------



## CliffV

Jeremy W said:


> I also don't expect to ever see a migration of the current MPEG2 SD channels to MPEG4. There's no reason to waste bandwidth on SD duplicates if they're going to be MPEG4, since the receiver can just downconvert the HD version. News Corp. won't even be sending out SD versions of their channels after this year, and I'm sure other content providers won't be far behind.


So far this conversation has focused on bandwidth consumed by channels delivered delivered to our dishes. Doesn't DirecTv consume as much bandwidth on delivering channels from the provider to their distribution center. If so, shouldn't DirecTv only send the HD versions to their distribution center. The HD version can be down converted to SD there.

Wouldn't that save substantial bandwidth on the satellites?


----------



## Jeremy W

CliffV said:


> Doesn't DirecTv consume as much bandwidth on delivering channels from the provider to their distribution center.


No. The channels are either delivered via satellite or fiber, but either way it's not using DirecTV's bandwidth. They simply collect everyone else's signal at their broadcast centers.


----------



## CliffV

Jeremy W said:


> No. The channels are either delivered via satellite or fiber, but either way it's not using DirecTV's bandwidth. They simply collect everyone else's signal at their broadcast centers.


Is that true even for the locals? For instance, for the Seattle locals, aren't the signals delivered by the local stations to a DirecTv building in downtown Seattle. Are you saying that DirecTv then ships those channels to their broadcast centers via fiber?


----------



## carl6

CliffV said:


> Is that true even for the locals? For instance, for the Seattle locals, aren't the signals delivered by the local stations to a DirecTv building in downtown Seattle. Are you saying that DirecTv then ships those channels to their broadcast centers via fiber?


The back haul could be by any of several means (including satellite). But it is not using the satellite bandwidth that is used for distribution to customers.


----------



## Avder

cartrivision said:


> That's where the biggest bandwidth savings can be had by any provider... by using a single HD transmission for HD customers, and using the same transmission for SD customers by cropping (or letterboxing) and downrezing it. That completely eliminates the need for any bandwidth for a SD version of a channel.


I really hope they reserve this method only for channels that dont use any kind of stretch-o-vision, because I still use the SD feeds of those channels when they show a 4:3 program that I want to watch.


----------



## P Smith

evan_s said:


> *I have no idea what DirecTV's current bit rate is for the MPEG2 sd channels* but even if it is already 1.5 mbps they should be able to reduce that down to roughly half that and maintain approximately the same quality. At extremely low bit rates I believe Mpeg-4 generally does better than that because it received a fair amount of optimization for Internet streaming usage which is heavily bandwidth sensitive. Also one of the advantages of Mpeg-4 compression is you are much less likely to see macro-blocking at low bit rates and instead it just looks blurrier which is generally a lot less noticeable.


I'll give you it right now:
101W tp1:
14 channels + 4 audio 
231 FOOD
250 REAL
269 HIST
272 LOGO
293 BABY
302 NKTN
309 GSN
326 GAC
327 CMT
378 NRB
528 ELOV
560 DTV
593 ADLT
614 ESPU
813 SONC
842 SONC
847 SONC
854 SONC

Max around 3 Mbps - ESPU, rest: from 2.3 to 1.37 Mbps, 593 ADLT show 0.58 Mbps. Audio: ~280 Kbps [Stereo,48 KHz,192 KB/s] and lower.

Similar for tp2 (12 channels). Let me know which tp you'd like to pick.


----------



## Jeremy W

Avder said:


> I really hope they reserve this method only for channels that dont use any kind of stretch-o-vision, because I still use the SD feeds of those channels when they show a 4:3 program that I want to watch.


Stretch-o-vision will not even be a concern when this comes to pass. The channels will have no choice but to show 4:3 content correctly so that it can be properly downconverted. Could you imagine people on their SDTVs watching a letterboxed version of a funhouse mirror stretch? Yeah, that wouldn't go over very well at all.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> 593 ADLT show 0.58 Mbps.


That's just a slideshow channel.


----------



## P Smith

I know.


----------



## cartrivision

cartrivision said:


> That's where the biggest bandwidth savings can be had by any provider... by using a single HD transmission for HD customers, and using the same transmission for SD customers by cropping (or letterboxing) and downrezing it. That completely eliminates the need for any bandwidth for a SD version of a channel.
> 
> 
> Avder said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really hope they reserve this method only for channels that dont use any kind of stretch-o-vision, because I still use the SD feeds of those channels when they show a 4:3 program that I want to watch.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree that cropped or letterboxed stretch-o-vision would both be _no bueno_, but so is having to use the low-rez SD channel to escape from it. Hopefully stretch-o-vision will be a thing of the past long before the MPEG2 SD channels are.


----------



## gphvid

cartrivision said:


> I'd have to agree that cropped or letterboxed stretch-o-vision would both be _no bueno_, but so is having to use the low-rez SD channel to escape from it. Hopefully stretch-o-vision will be a thing of the past long before the MPEG2 SD channels are.


The process of downconverting to SD is actually another stream entirely. A Sony HDCamSR machine is an example of this. It normally outputs HD video, but the format converter will output either 16x9 squeezed (anamorphic) for SD DVD and SD 16x9 sets, or 4x3 letterbox, or 4x3 side-matted full frame. There is the HD stream and the separate SD stream. So to use this machine to service both HD and SD viewers, both streams would be used.


----------



## cartrivision

gphvid said:


> The process of downconverting to SD is actually another stream entirely. A Sony HDCamSR machine is an example of this. It normally outputs HD video, but the format converter will output either 16x9 squeezed (anamorphic) for SD DVD and SD 16x9 sets, or 4x3 letterbox, or 4x3 side-matted full frame. There is the HD stream and the separate SD stream. So to use this machine to service both HD and SD viewers, both streams would be used.


I'm not sure what your point was there, but none of it changes the fact that DirecTV could broadcast a single HD stream for each channel that the set top boxes would then either output it in 16:9 HD for HD customers, or output it in cropped or letterboxed 4:3 SD for SD customers.


----------



## Bob Coxner

Want some depressing news?

Space Junk Mess Getting Messier in Orbit

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/space-debris-getting-messier-100223.html


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Bob Coxner said:


> Want some depressing news?
> 
> Space Junk Mess Getting Messier in Orbit
> 
> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/space-debris-getting-messier-100223.html


Maybe it can take out the sat that Versus is on.

Then what will the NHL do?


----------



## gphvid

cartrivision said:


> I'm not sure what your point was there, but none of it changes the fact that DirecTV could broadcast a single HD stream for each channel that the set top boxes would then either output it in 16:9 HD for HD customers, or output it in cropped or letterboxed 4:3 SD for SD customers.


Then there should be a menu item that permits this kind of setting for users to choose what they wish, although there is an interesting problem in that a true 16x9 1.78 program is not always 4x3 ff safe, and a center extraction for SD 4x3 would still have people cut off from time to time depending on the show and how loose the shots are done. And even then, there are some directors who just simply will not shoot 4x3 ff safe no matter what.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bob Coxner said:


> Want some depressing news?
> 
> Space Junk Mess Getting Messier in Orbit
> 
> http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/space-debris-getting-messier-100223.html


The good news is D12 is above all that now.  Though it is getting harder to launch more satellites.


----------



## Beerstalker

gphvid said:


> Then there should be a menu item that permits this kind of setting for users to choose what they wish, although there is an interesting problem in that a true 16x9 1.78 program is not always 4x3 ff safe, and a center extraction for SD 4x3 would still have people cut off from time to time depending on the show and how loose the shots are done. And even then, there are some directors who just simply will not shoot 4x3 ff safe no matter what.


There already is. I have an H21 hooked up to a standard def TV via S-video. I have it set to show all SD channels as fullscreen 4:3, and all HD channels as letterboxed 16:9. There is also a setting to show the HD channels as cropped 4:3 but I don't use it most of the time (only use it when I'm watching a 4:3 show on a HD channel).

As far as shooting shows 4:3 safe I say no way. The people who insist on cropping everything to "Fill up their screen" have been cropping moveis down to 4:3 for years on VHS and DVD and missing out on all kinds of stuff, they will just keep doing it on TV shows now. I'd rather they not waste the space on my HD shows just to cram all the info in for those people stuck in the mindset they are missing stuff if their TV screen isn't full.


----------



## bobnielsen

gphvid said:


> Then there should be a menu item that permits this kind of setting for users to choose what they wish, although there is an interesting problem in that a true 16x9 1.78 program is not always 4x3 ff safe, and a center extraction for SD 4x3 would still have people cut off from time to time depending on the show and how loose the shots are done. And even then, there are some directors who just simply will not shoot 4x3 ff safe no matter what.


That's what the FORMAT button on the remotes is for. When viewing 16:9 source on a 4:3 display, you can letterbox, crop or stretch (vertically). My HR21 is connected to a 1988 Sony which refuses to die and I switch formats quite often, depending on the content I am viewing.

Right now most SD locals are derived from HD source, with the station choosing whether Directv will crop or letterbox (I believe most are cropped). When there are only the HD versions available, the user will have that choice.


----------



## texasbrit

cartrivision said:


> I'm not sure what your point was there, but none of it changes the fact that DirecTV could broadcast a single HD stream for each channel that the set top boxes would then either output it in 16:9 HD for HD customers, or output it in cropped or letterboxed 4:3 SD for SD customers.


...just like the R22 does in those areas where there is only an HD transmission...the old 72.5 areas.....and everyone complains about the letterboxing...


----------



## Beerstalker

texasbrit said:


> ...just like the R22 does in those areas where there is only an HD transmission...the old 72.5 areas.....and everyone complains about the letterboxing...


Those people that are complaining need to change the settings so it crops the feed to fit their TV then. The setting is there, they just need to set it correctly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Beerstalker said:


> Those people that are complaining need to change the settings so it crops the feed to fit their TV then. The setting is there, they just need to set it correctly.


The R22 in SD only mode does not have those settings available.


----------



## mobandit

Forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion thread about D12...not the formatting options available through various receivers...just sayin'


----------



## P Smith

Yeah, sometimes Mods drifting too much.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mobandit said:


> Forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion thread about D12...not the formatting options available through various receivers...just sayin'





P Smith said:


> Yeah, sometimes Mods drifting too much.


Yes, sometimes we too need to be boosted :backtotop as our inclination gets a bit off.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> The good news is D12 is above all that now.  Though it is getting harder to launch more satellites.


*THAT* is good to know.


mobandit said:


> Forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion thread about D12...not the formatting options available through various receivers...just sayin'


I almost thought I was in the wrong thread at first myself. :lol:

Now that we are likely inside of 60-70 days of a live D12 bird....the interest and excitement will continue to build. More HD!!!!


----------



## Sixto

All has been steady ...



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		02-25-2010 11:32:55
Orbit # at Epoch	66
Inclination		0.082
RA of A. Node		277.956
Eccentricity		0.0000393
Argument of Perigee	26.725
Revs per day		1.00270804
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 789 km
Element number / age	88 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.9940° W
Lat			0.0170° S
Alt (km)		35 785.350

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
088 02-25 11:32:55 35,785 x 35,789      4 +31.87H 58.47D  75.99°W  0.02°S  0.08°
086 02-24 03:40:25 35,784 x 35,789      5 +45.94H 57.14D  75.99°W  0.04°S  0.09°
085 02-22 05:43:43 35,785 x 35,788      3 +61.26H 55.22D  75.99°W  0.07°S  0.09°
084 02-19 16:28:17 35,785 x 35,788      3 +13.52H 52.67D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.09°
083 02-19 02:57:08 35,785 x 35,788      3 +22.27H 52.11D  76.00°W  0.04°S  0.10°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> All has been steady ...
> 
> Post#1 has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


Thanks for the update sir.

Hoping the testing is all going well too, with the "2nd phase" in that location starting 3/3.


----------



## Hoosier205

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now that we are likely inside of 60-70 days of a live D12 bird....


...or less possibly. We can hope for the best.


----------



## R0am3r

Hoosier205 said:


> ...or less possibly. We can hope for the best.


Parking at 76 is getting old. I think it's time to move on down the road to 103.


----------



## bb37

Let's let the engineers and technicians fully test D12 before moving it into its final position. I'd rather wait a few more weeks for D12 to be completely sorted out than have it brought on-line before it was really ready.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bb37 said:


> Let's let the engineers and technicians fully test D12 before moving it into its final position. I'd rather wait a few more weeks for D12 to be completely sorted out than have it brought on-line before it was really ready.


Agree - I suspect moving D12 anywhere before it's thoroughly tested simply won't happen. There's too much at stake to risk doing things haphazardly this late in the game.


----------



## Sixto

park. test. drift. park. (minor test). "live". not changing.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Is there a date set yet for the trip to 103°? I don't see it in the timeline, but I could be missing it...


----------



## P Smith

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Is there a date set yet for the trip to 103°? I don't see it in the timeline, but I could be missing it...


Post#2.


----------



## Sixto

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Is there a date set yet for the trip to 103°? I don't see it in the timeline, but I could be missing it...


Testing at 76 is authorized for 30 days. The drift is referenced in the FCC document as "over the course of 3 weeks". Testing started 2/13.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Sixto said:


> Testing at 76 is authorized for 30 days. The drift is referenced in the FCC document as "over the course of 3 weeks". Testing started 2/13.


So, in theory, the testing should be complete by 15 March, and parking about 5 April?


----------



## Sixto

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So, in theory, the testing should be complete by 15 March, and parking about 5 April?


Yep, summary in post#1.


----------



## jefbal99

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So, in theory, the testing should be complete by 15 March, and parking about 5 April?


Unless testing completes in less than 30 days


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So, in theory, the testing should be complete by 15 March, and parking about 5 April?





Sixto said:


> Yep, summary in post#1.


So new HD on my birthday (April 6)???:hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah:


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> The good news is D12 is above all that now.  Though it is getting harder to launch more satellites.


Then perhaps it's time someone launch up there with a big space bulldozer or something and just plow that crap out of the way.


----------



## raoul5788

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So new HD on my birthday (April 6)???:hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah:


Or mine on the 12th?


----------



## onan38

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So new HD on my birthday (April 6)???:hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah:


Hey,That is mine to!


----------



## Rob

Or mine on December 13?


----------



## cartrivision

Beerstalker said:


> Those people that are complaining need to change the settings so it crops the feed to fit their TV then. The setting is there, they just need to set it correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Robertson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The R22 in SD only mode does not have those settings available.
Click to expand...

That's just the result of a questionable feature design decision that was made for the R22, but that limitation doesn't have to be continued on in perpetuity, so I'd venture to say that many years from now when there are no more dual SD & HD feeds of any channels, all receivers will have the option of showing the HD feeds in 4:3 SD by either cropping or letterboxing them.


----------



## carl6

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So new HD on my birthday (April 6)???:hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah:


Let's be optimistic and shoot for my Birthday on the 3rd of April.


----------



## wmb

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So, in theory, the testing should be complete by 15 March


Beware the Ides of March. Et tu Brute?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

carl6 said:


> Let's be optimistic and shoot for my Birthday on the 3rd of April.


I'm rooting for your date....but suspect that we're looking at a few weeks later than that for D12 to be fully operational and in its permanent location.

No bad news at all so far, only good.

When we hear it's moving again towards 103...that will be an excellent sign we are getting close.


----------



## jazzyjez

Sixto said:


> All has been steady ...
> 
> ...
> Lon 75.9940° W
> Lat 0.0170° S
> Alt (km) 35 785.350
> ...


Hope you don't mind but I thought I'd just go against the flow here and ask a question about satellites! 
Looking the reports like the one above made me wonder, how do we actually know it's in that position and how accurate are those measurements? Do these use triangulation and timing pulses to several locations - like GPS but in reverse? Also, that altitude is shown with 3 digits after the decimal (though the last one always seems to be zero), that implies it's known to within 10 meters - that seems remarkably good to me.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm rooting for your date....but suspect that we're looking at a few weeks later than that for D12 to be fully operational and in its permanent location.
> 
> No bad news at all so far, only good.
> 
> When we hear it's moving again towards 103...that will be an excellent sign we are getting close.


Agreed, I'd expect it will be a week or more to get content loaded and retested before we start seeing additions.


----------



## RAD

This was in the 2010 DirecTV annual report that came out today:

_"As part of this rollout, we planon offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of TV homes."_


----------



## sunking

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agree - I suspect moving D12 anywhere before it's thoroughly tested simply won't happen. There's too much at stake to risk doing things haphazardly this late in the game.


At the risk of sounding impatient, I'll say as a customer I could care less about the testing and say just slam the thing into place. It either works good enough or it doesn't, and anything they have to tweak they can do in its final position.

Just saying, this has more to do with procedure or testing something new that won't be utilized in its final position anyway than it has to do with moving haphazardly with the chance of dire outcome do to lack of testing. So the paying subscriber in me says move the darn thing already.


----------



## ATARI

sunking said:


> At the risk of sounding impatient, I'll say as a customer I could care less about the testing and say just slam the thing into place. It either works good enough or it doesn't, and anything they have to tweak they can do in its final position.
> 
> Just saying, this has more to do with procedure or testing something new that won't be utilized in its final position anyway than it has to do with moving haphazardly with the chance of dire outcome do to lack of testing. So the paying subscriber in me says move the darn thing already.


:nono2:


----------



## Sixto

Both the regular Ka payload (national/LiL) and the BSS payload can be more thoroughly and easily tested at 76°, with little risk to anything else. Not the case at 103°.

If a major problem occurred, it could very adversely effect D10, which would not be good and very irresponsible from a best practices testing perspective.


----------



## Newshawk

sunking said:


> At the risk of sounding impatient, I'll say as a customer I could care less about the testing and say just slam the thing into place. It either works good enough or it doesn't, and anything they have to tweak they can do in its final position.
> 
> Just saying, this has more to do with procedure or testing something new that won't be utilized in its final position anyway than it has to do with moving haphazardly with the chance of dire outcome do to lack of testing. So the paying subscriber in me says move the darn thing already.


I guess it's time... :sure:

Patience, grasshopper.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sunking said:


> At the risk of sounding impatient, I'll say as a customer I could care less about the testing and say just slam the thing into place. It either works good enough or it doesn't, and anything they have to tweak they can do in its final position.
> 
> Just saying, this has more to do with procedure or testing something new that won't be utilized in its final position anyway than it has to do with moving haphazardly with the chance of dire outcome do to lack of testing. So the paying subscriber in me says move the darn thing already.


Unfortunately...without the testing....you may have nothing new to watch (if serious issues due to a lack of testing surface).

I'm antsy too, but not to the point of sacrificing conventional wisdom to make sure the critical testing is done. Then again, its not my hundreds of millions in $$$ at risk on the satellite itself or hundreds of millions in future revenue.


----------



## joshjr

RAD said:


> This was in the 2010 DirecTV annual report that came out today:
> 
> _"As part of this rollout, we planon offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of TV homes."_


Can someone post a link to this?


----------



## RAD

joshjr said:


> Can someone post a link to this?


http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/DTV/854599275x0xS1047469-10-1456/1465112/1047469-10-1456.pdf the PDF is 310 pages long.


----------



## raoul5788

sunking said:


> At the risk of sounding impatient, I'll say as a customer I could care less about the testing and say just slam the thing into place. It either works good enough or it doesn't, and anything they have to tweak they can do in its final position.
> 
> Just saying, this has more to do with procedure or testing something new that won't be utilized in its final position anyway than it has to do with moving haphazardly with the chance of dire outcome do to lack of testing. So the paying subscriber in me says move the darn thing already.


We all want lots more hd _*today*_, but then, it's not your millions and millions of dollars at stake 22,500 miles away!  Patience grasshopper!


----------



## jefbal99

RAD said:


> This was in the 2010 DirecTV annual report that came out today:
> 
> _"As part of this rollout, we planon offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of TV homes."_


Hopefully my market


----------



## RAD

Also in that same report there's mention of DirecTV on Demand and the new movie service, DirecTV Cinema. Hopefully that new service is where the 600 PPV's will be and not use a lot of CONUS HD transponder capacity.

_"We also expect to expand our DIRECTV on DEMAND, our video on demand, or VOD, service for subscribers that have the DIRECTVPlus® digital video recorder, or DVR, or DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR set-top receivers. As of year end 2009, DIRECTV on DEMAND offered about 6,000 titles providing thousands of hours of top programming from the major broadcast and cable networks, as well as popular movies. Most of the titles are offered free of charge and are downloaded from the Internet through a broadband connection for those subscribers with a DIRECTV Plus HD DVR. In addition, we download top movies via our satellites to a customer's DVR hard drive.
In 2010, we expect to introduce a new movie service, DIRECTV Cinema TM , which will substantially increase the number of new release movies available for our customers to view and purchase from either their television, laptop computer or mobile telephone."_


----------



## EricRobins

RAD said:


> This was in the 2010 DirecTV annual report that came out today:
> 
> _"As part of this rollout, we planon offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of TV homes."_


SIGH......

Based on this information, why (as someone who already has HD locals) should this matter to me? In other words, unless you live in one of those 19 markets, why would you care either? Assuming an average of 150k homes/market (based on scanning DMA nos. 140-159), that would help AT MOST just less than 3M homes (about 2.5% of the total number of homes in US). DATA FROM http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-2010-dma-ranks.pdf)

At which point is the marginal increase in HD Locals not worth the cost of a new sat? We must have hit that YEARS ago.


----------



## Jeremy W

EricRobins said:


> At which point is the marginal increase in HD Locals not worth the cost of a new sat? We must have hit that YEARS ago.


You'd have a point if the satellite's only purpose was HD locals. But it's not.


----------



## JeffBowser

That's a rather narrow, self-centered viewpoint. Anything they do to stay competitive and be attractive to a broad base of users is good for us. They need to stay healthy and moving forward, regardless if the upgrade du-jour is of particular use to you personally.

I was just thinking to myself that the 5% who will be still left out are going to be very vocal and upset.



EricRobins said:


> SIGH......
> 
> Based on this information, why (as someone who already has HD locals) should this matter to me? In other words, unless you live in one of those 19 markets, why would you care either? Assuming an average of 150k homes/market (based on scanning DMA nos. 140-159), that would help AT MOST just less than 3M homes (about 2.5% of the total number of homes in US). DATA FROM http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-2010-dma-ranks.pdf)
> 
> At which point is the marginal increase in HD Locals not worth the cost of a new sat? We must have hit that YEARS ago.


----------



## Tom Robertson

EricRobins said:


> SIGH......
> 
> Based on this information, why (as someone who already has HD locals) should this matter to me? In other words, unless you live in one of those 19 markets, why would you care either? Assuming an average of 150k homes/market (based on scanning DMA nos. 140-159), that would help AT MOST just less than 3M homes (about 2.5% of the total number of homes in US). DATA FROM http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-2010-dma-ranks.pdf)
> 
> At which point is the marginal increase in HD Locals not worth the cost of a new sat? We must have hit that YEARS ago.


If the only reason the satellite was launched was for 3M homes, yeah it would be huge waste.

Thankfully, they have other reasons to launch... 

Redundancy, more nationals, the RB-2A package, etc. 

In fact, it is quite possible D12 wasn't required for the 19 new DMAs in the first place. It takes time to setup facilities in areas with no existing service. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ycebar

RAD said:


> This was in the 2010 DirecTV annual report that came out today:
> 
> _"As part of this rollout, we planon offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of TV homes."_


Any word on which markets will be added hopefully Fargo ND is one of them


----------



## oldfantom

Someone previously asked about slamming the satellite into place. Which got me thinking, what does out of position testing get you? If the darn thing won't light up, what are you going to do differently at 76 that you couldn't do at 103? I suppose if it got to position and started shooting signal death rays, you would not want it at 103. But is that the only reason? Let me say, I am asking seriously. Not because I am impatient, but because I would like to understand the purpose of out of slot testing.


----------



## JeffBowser

+1



oldfantom said:


> Someone previously asked about slamming the satellite into place. Which got me thinking, what does out of position testing get you? If the darn thing won't light up, what are you going to do differently at 76 that you couldn't do at 103? I suppose if it got to position and started shooting signal death rays, you would not want it at 103. But is that the only reason? Let me say, I am asking seriously. Not because I am impatient, but because I would like to understand the purpose of out of slot testing.


----------



## woj027

oldfantom said:


> Someone previously asked about slamming the satellite into place. Which got me thinking, what does out of position testing get you? If the darn thing won't light up, what are you going to do differently at 76 that you couldn't do at 103? I suppose if it got to position and started shooting signal death rays, you would not want it at 103. But is that the only reason? Let me say, I am asking seriously. Not because I am impatient, but because I would like to understand the purpose of out of slot testing.


I was under the impression that because D12 will be sharing the same slot at D10 they wanted to make sure that the testing of D12 did not adversely affect D10. That is, they might over amplify a signal just to see what their peeks are and that could scramble the D10 signal, which would piss off a whole lot of viewers.


----------



## Sixto

D12 will not only be at the same slot (103°) but will also use the exact same frequencies that D10 and SW1 use today.

The details and new arrangement is detailed in post#1.


----------



## Tom Robertson

woj027 said:


> I was under the impression that because D12 will be sharing the same slot at D10 they wanted to make sure that the testing of D12 did not adversely affect D10. That is, they might over amplify a signal just to see what their peeks are and that could scramble the D10 signal, which would piss off a whole lot of viewers.


This is a big part of the remote testing. Ensuring the transmitters behave themselves with minimal interference characteristics. They also tune the power levels, ensure the spot beams are shaped as expected, etc.

Some of these tests require they tilt the satellite toward a broadcast center. Those tests can't be done with the Ka transmitters operating--the tilt will case interference in all kinds of nasty ways. 

Now, the first satellite going to a slot can test in that slot--if there aren't too many satellites within 2 degrees that also could be interfered with.

That last thing anyone wants is to cause problems for anyone's customers. 

cheers,
Tom


----------



## evan_s

oldfantom said:


> Someone previously asked about slamming the satellite into place. Which got me thinking, what does out of position testing get you? If the darn thing won't light up, what are you going to do differently at 76 that you couldn't do at 103? I suppose if it got to position and started shooting signal death rays, you would not want it at 103. But is that the only reason? Let me say, I am asking seriously. Not because I am impatient, but because I would like to understand the purpose of out of slot testing.


My understanding was that they would be slightly rotating the sat while checking the signal strength to verify everything has ended up pointed where they expect it to be. This type of testing shouldn't be a problem for the Conus because Spaceway shouldn't be interfering anyway. The spot testing on the other hand would be a problem since it is reusing the same space that d10 is currently using to provide locals with spots. I don't see how they could do the testing at 103 with out causing problems with those locals.


----------



## BlackHitachi

EricRobins said:


> SIGH......
> 
> Based on this information, why (as someone who already has HD locals) should this matter to me? In other words, unless you live in one of those 19 markets, why would you care either? Assuming an average of 150k homes/market (based on scanning DMA nos. 140-159), that would help AT MOST just less than 3M homes (about 2.5% of the total number of homes in US). DATA FROM http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2009-2010-dma-ranks.pdf)
> 
> At which point is the marginal increase in HD Locals not worth the cost of a new sat? We must have hit that YEARS ago.


:nono2:



JeffBowser said:


> That's a rather narrow, self-centered viewpoint. Anything they do to stay competitive and be attractive to a broad base of users is good for us. They need to stay healthy and moving forward, regardless if the upgrade du-jour is of particular use to you personally.
> 
> I was just thinking to myself that the 5% who will be still left out are going to be very vocal and upset.


 GREAT POST!:biggthump

Here is hoping for MEDFORD, Oregon's DMA!


----------



## jerrylove56

How is it that E* is able to place its launched sats into quicker operations that D*??????


----------



## curt8403

jerrylove56 said:


> How is it that E* is able to place its launched sats into quicker operations that D*??????


 they probably burn more fuel, (shorter satellite life?) Just a guess


----------



## JeffBowser

Their last launch had a _really_ short life



curt8403 said:


> they probably burn more fuel, (shorter satellite life?) Just a guess


----------



## jefbal99

curt8403 said:


> they probably burn more fuel, (shorter satellite life?) Just a guess


Hit the nail on the head, possibly less testing. Remember that a satellite that was going up a year ago for Dish use was lost after launch.


----------



## curt8403

JeffBowser said:


> Their last launch had a _really_ short life


 yes, I remember, bet they do not use that launch platform again for a while


----------



## mobandit

jazzyjez said:


> Hope you don't mind but I thought I'd just go against the flow here and ask a question about satellites!
> Looking the reports like the one above made me wonder, how do we actually know it's in that position and how accurate are those measurements? Do these use triangulation and timing pulses to several locations - like GPS but in reverse? Also, that altitude is shown with 3 digits after the decimal (though the last one always seems to be zero), that implies it's known to within 10 meters - that seems remarkably good to me.


Tracking a satellite at that range is difficult to do. Most 'fixes' are obtained using radio signals (some deep space tracking radar systems are in use). They also do try and obtain a visual reference (some deep space telescopes are used for visual tracking and observation). Lower altitude satellites are also tracked using what is called a 'fence.' There are at least three CW (continuous wave) transmitters located across the lower part of the US, with six receiver stations measuring the 'return' from objects passing through the transmitted energy. It is a form of primitive radar that works rather well, and can track an object in orbit out to about 10,000 KM (I think, it's been a long time since I looked up the specs on the fence). The fence used to be under the control of Naval Space Command, where I was stationed from 1996-2000.


----------



## evan_s

jerrylove56 said:


> How is it that E* is able to place its launched sats into quicker operations that D*??????


The simplest answer is Dish feels like they need to do it quicker. DirecTV doesn't. You can shorten the testing, use more fuel to move it faster, rush to get channels up quicker.

It would also depend on what that exact sat is intended to do. A sat with only Ku conus tps would require less testing than D12 with Ka conus and spots and some BSS spots. Spot testing especially would seem to take longer as there are more of them generally and you have to reorient the stat to test them as they are pointed different directions.


----------



## jerrylove56

evan_s said:


> The simplest answer is Dish feels like they need to do it quicker. DirecTV doesn't. You can shorten the testing, use more fuel to move it faster, rush to get channels up quicker.
> 
> It would also depend on what that exact sat is intended to do. A sat with only Ku conus tps would require less testing than D12 with Ka conus and spots and some BSS spots. Spot testing especially would seem to take longer as there are more of them generally and you have to reorient the stat to test them as they are pointed different directions.


Thanks.


----------



## Indiana627

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So new HD on my birthday (April 6)???:hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah::hurah:


My second daughter is scheduled to be born via C-section on March 29th - would be nice to have some new HD channels to help celebrate!


----------



## Jeremy W

mobandit said:


> Lower altitude satellites are also tracked using what is called a 'fence.'


If anyone wants to read some detailed information on this "fence" like I did, here is a great source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/space-fence.htm


----------



## P Smith

Are we turning into labor&delivery and gynecologist's discussion ? 
:backtotopic


----------



## Sixto

More Spectrum Five - DirecTV Response (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803766​


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five - DirecTV Response (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803766​


WOW - having read that all - if someone thought it was getting "ugly" before....now its REALLY getting ugly. :eek2:


----------



## wmb

I have a new word!!!!

Main Entry: chi·me·ri·cal 
Pronunciation: \kī-ˈmer-i-kəl, kə-, -ˈmir-\
Variant(s): also chi·me·ric \-ik\
Function: adjective 
Etymology: chimera
Date: 1638
1 : existing only as the product of unchecked imagination : fantastically visionary or improbable
2 : given to fantastic schemes

synonyms see imaginary

- chi·me·ri·cal·ly \-i-k(ə-)lē\ adverb

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chimerical


----------



## Beerstalker

This is how I'm understanding D*'s thoughts. Somebody please let me know if I'm wrong.

D* says that they feel that they were the ones who got the right to broadcast in that spectrum first, so S5 should be ignored.

Even if they decide that S5 does have the rights to that spectrum D* should have the right to test and broadcast in that specturm until S5 has a satellite launched, and ready to broadcast. Then D* would have to stop broadcasting in that spectrum, or work out a deal with S5 to both broadcast on the same spectrum. This has been allowed for other satellite broadcasters in the past so it should be allowed now.

So D* thinks they should ignore S5 until they actually have something ready to launch, or ready to broadcast.

Am I getting the gist of it?


----------



## mobandit

hdtvfan0001 said:


> WOW - having read that all - if someone thought it was getting "ugly" before....now its REALLY getting ugly. :eek2:


That wasn't ugly, that was smackdown. That was sit down and shut up.


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five - DirecTV Response (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803766​


Will someone please buy Spectrum Five a crying towel. A big one.


----------



## mobandit

Beerstalker said:


> This is how I'm understanding D*'s thoughts. Somebody please let me know if I'm wrong.
> 
> D* says that they feel that they were the ones who got the right to broadcast in that spectrum first, so S5 should be ignored.
> 
> Even if they decide that S5 does have the rights to that spectrum D* should have the right to test and broadcast in that specturm until S5 has a satellite launched, and ready to broadcast. Then D* would have to stop broadcasting in that spectrum, or work out a deal with S5 to both broadcast on the same spectrum. This has been allowed for other satellite broadcasters in the past so it should be allowed now.
> 
> So D* thinks they should ignore S5 until they actually have something ready to launch, or ready to broadcast.
> 
> Am I getting the gist of it?


Yup, I think you got the high points. I especially liked D* admitting that they were guilty of trying to be the first to broadcast using a BSS payload..."guilty as charged." I have never read legal briefs like this before, didn't realize they would use humor like that.


----------



## oldfantom

Beerstalker said:


> This is how I'm understanding D*'s thoughts. Somebody please let me know if I'm wrong.
> 
> D* says that they feel that they were the ones who got the right to broadcast in that spectrum first, so S5 should be ignored.
> 
> Even if they decide that S5 does have the rights to that spectrum D* should have the right to test and broadcast in that specturm until S5 has a satellite launched, and ready to broadcast. Then D* would have to stop broadcasting in that spectrum, or work out a deal with S5 to both broadcast on the same spectrum. This has been allowed for other satellite broadcasters in the past so it should be allowed now.
> 
> So D* thinks they should ignore S5 until they actually have something ready to launch, or ready to broadcast.
> 
> Am I getting the gist of it?


It has been thirty years since my time on the playground, but this looks familiar. Big kid, let's call him "D", standing on the playground. Little kid, we shall call him "S5" walks up and takes a swing at big kid. Big kid pushes little kid away. Little kid comes back, big kid pushes again. Little kid comes back, big kid pounds little kid into next week. I never was the little kid and I never understood why they kept coming back for the inevitable thrashing. Maybe, in this case, the Canadian satellite chicks dig scars?


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, putting on my lawyer-hat for the moment . . .

THAT was a Grade-A *****-slap!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Okay, putting on my lawyer-hat for the moment . . .
> 
> THAT was a Grade-A *****-slap!


Obviously your strong skills on the legal and rocket science sides are a great fit to this specific assessment. :lol:


----------



## curt8403

to be fair, I think that 72.5 and maybe 76 are canada slots. I may be wrong.


----------



## jazzyjez

mobandit said:


> jazzyjez said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hope you don't mind but I thought I'd just go against the flow here and ask a question about satellites!
> Looking the reports like the one above made me wonder, how do we actually know it's in that position and how accurate are those measurements? Do these use triangulation and timing pulses to several locations - like GPS but in reverse? Also, that altitude is shown with 3 digits after the decimal (though the last one always seems to be zero), that implies it's known to within 10 meters - that seems remarkably good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Tracking a satellite at that range is difficult to do. Most 'fixes' are obtained using radio signals (some deep space tracking radar systems are in use). They also do try and obtain a visual reference (some deep space telescopes are used for visual tracking and observation). Lower altitude satellites are also tracked using what is called a 'fence.' There are at least three CW (continuous wave) transmitters located across the lower part of the US, with six receiver stations measuring the 'return' from objects passing through the transmitted energy. It is a form of primitive radar that works rather well, and can track an object in orbit out to about 10,000 KM (I think, it's been a long time since I looked up the specs on the fence). The fence used to be under the control of Naval Space Command, where I was stationed from 1996-2000.
Click to expand...

Fascinating stuff - appreciate the reply mobandit.


----------



## mobandit

Here's a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Space_Surveillance_Network#Space_Surveillance_Network

It is fairly accurate. The SPASUR Fence referenced in the article used to be operated by Naval Space Command. Naval Space Command was disbanded years ago. I routinely toured through the control room where all of the data from the Fence was collated and reported to US Space Command. I also routinely visited a couple of the remote sites (receivers and transmitters) as a part of my duties. They were not exciting to see in operation!


----------



## wmb

mobandit said:


> They were not exciting to see in operation!


Seems like, with things like this, during the operational phase, excitement is a bad thing. Remember the old Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times!


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five - DirecTV Response (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803766​


Its like reading a great comic strip.... !rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wmb said:


> Seems like, with things like this, during the operational phase, excitement is a bad thing. Remember the old Chinese curse: May you live in interesting times!


Wisdom and Truth in that.

No news is good news, when it comes to the testing time window.


----------



## Sixto

Ciel's Response to Spectrum Five (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803849​
The referenced 2/3/2010 document:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799335​


----------



## Sixto

Looks like the BSS testing may be complete by 3/5/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800161​


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​
DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.

Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.

DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​


Yep, I was wondering when those would be approved. For both SW1 and D10, it's a shift of 0.04º, or about 18.4 miles (if my early-morning math isn't too far off).


----------



## Sixto

Some other recent Earth station approvals for the D12 testing:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799889

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799887​


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> Looks like the BSS testing may be complete by 3/5/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800161​


Confused, doc says that IOT would be completed by 3/5 but wants another 30 days for completion of IOT. If they're done by 3/5, which is before the end of the original 30 days why more test time?


----------



## jefbal99

RAD said:


> Confused, doc says that IOT would be completed by 3/5 but wants another 30 days for completion of IOT. If they're done by 3/5, which is before the end of the original 30 days why more test time?


Wording was interesting, was the initial 30 days from 1/21 when it was approved?


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Looks like the BSS testing may be complete by 3/5/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=800161​


didn't we think BSS testing would start on 3/3? Does this mean drifiting could start be the end of next week?


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Confused, doc says that IOT would be completed by 3/5 but wants another 30 days for completion of IOT. If they're done by 3/5, which is before the end of the original 30 days why more test time?


The initial grant looks like it was from 1/21 to 2/21, while the application wanted 30 days from arrival. Looks like they needed to fix.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> didn't we think BSS testing would start on 3/3? Does this mean drifiting could start be the end of next week?


It does seem like they may be ahead of schedule.

The first notice said BSS ttesting would start 3/3. A few days later this other notice says it will be completed by 3/5. Not sure what other D12 testing is planned but it does appear that they may be done sooner then 3/13 (30 days from start).

Hopefully.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> The initial grant looks like it was from 1/21 to 2/21, while the application wanted 30 days from arrival. Looks like they needed to fix.


That's look as delay of delivery to 76W - Boeing did park D12 there instead of 1/21 only 2/12 .
Hence the last request for extend STA. Orbiting is not simple task and could be very complicated.


----------



## jrodfoo

getting closer and closer..


----------



## netraa

Could they have tested the BSS payload first, and still need to test the KA package? 

With all the paperwork that ciel and s5 are/were throwing around it would make sense to just get it done while you had the paper in place lest you risk some paper shuffler decide that you can't do that any more?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> 
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> 
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


It'll be time to test the old signal levels here again after all these guys are parked. Doubt they'll be any changes....but it's something I do here when the sats get moved anyway...plus, of course....new signals to test altogether as well.


----------



## Indiana627

Might the final parking at 102.765° be very complicated and time consuming due to D10 and SW1 being so close?


----------



## Jeremy W

Indiana627 said:


> Might the final parking at 102.765° be very complicated and time consuming due to D10 and SW1 being so close?


They're not really that close.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> They're not really that close.


As I noted before, the distance Directv is planning to move D10 and SW1 is about 18.4 miles each. There's plenty of room.


----------



## EaglePC

Eagle will Eye the new Signal strength.what SAT should I be looking for?:hurah:


----------



## tcusta00

EaglePC said:


> Eagle will Eye the new Signal strength.what SAT should I be looking for?:hurah:


Just turn your dish a hair clockwise and you should see it. No more than a hair though. If you go a smidge or a bit you'll have to start over. God speed.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

tcusta00 said:


> Just turn your dish a hair clockwise and you should see it. No more than a hair though. If you go a smidge or a bit you'll have to start over. God speed.


A hair... not a smidge, not a skosh, a bit is way too far!:lol:


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> 
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> 
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


There's also AMC-1 at 103°, so actually will be four at 103° when done.


----------



## jefbal99

EaglePC said:


> Eagle will Eye the new Signal strength.what SAT should I be looking for?:hurah:


This is a guess, but I'd keep an eye out for 103(ca) in the DirecTV satellite signal strength screen. D10 has been renamed 103(cb) for about a month i think.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> This is a guess, but I'd keep an eye out for 103(ca) in the DirecTV satellite signal strength screen. D10 has been renamed 103(cb) for about a month i think.


When the new NR gets rolled out. I think 0x0395 still shows 103 (c).


----------



## cebbigh

Where do the SW1 tp(s) show up on the sat signal strength screens? 
Sorry if it's something that should be obvious.


----------



## cheesedjdj

SW1 is the first 6 tps on the 103(s) screen. The rest are D10.


----------



## cebbigh

cheesedjdj said:


> SW1 is the first 6 tps on the 103(s) screen. The rest are D10.


Thanks. Does SW2 show up as the first 6 tps on 99s?

What do the 9 tps on SWM represent?


----------



## cheesedjdj

yes SW2 is the same on 99(s)

The SWM transponders represent each tuner in your house that is connected to your dish.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=173192 this has some good information about each transponder on all of the sats


----------



## cebbigh

Good. Will bookmark. Thanks again.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

So what exactly will RB-2A be used for, I still haven't figured that out? Is it for more HD too or something else?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So what exactly will RB-2A be used for, I still haven't figured that out? Is it for more HD too or something else?


I would suspect that it'll increase the national HD channels as well as more locals. Probably sports packages too.

I wouldn't think they'd put up a satellite and not use it provide content to us... 

Mike


----------



## jefbal99

MicroBeta said:


> I would suspect that it'll increase the national HD channels as well as more locals. Probably sports packages too.
> 
> I wouldn't think they'd put up a satellite and not use it provide content to us...
> 
> Mike


It only has 4 spot beams, so I'd guess niche programming and testing in anticipation of RB-2 being constructed and launched with full CONUS and spot beam capability.


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> It only has 4 spot beams, so I'd guess niche programming and testing in anticipation of RB-2 being constructed and launched with full CONUS and spot beam capability.


I'm not sure BSS from 103º will be CONUS, but there's a lot of balls bouncing around on this right now. Ciel holds a Canadian BSS license for service from 103º as well, along with plans to launch their satellite later this year. Directv and Ciel will have to coordinate all BSS usage from 103º to avoid interfering with one another. What this means is that Directv and Ciel could agree to split up the transponders so that they are broadcasting on different frequencies, or it could be that one of them agrees to use spotbeams only, or some mix and match of the above


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> I'm not sure BSS from 103º will be CONUS, but there's a lot of balls bouncing around on this right now. Ciel holds a Canadian BSS license for service from 103º as well, along with plans to launch their satellite later this year. Directv and Ciel will have to coordinate all BSS usage from 103º to avoid interfering with one another. What this means is that Directv and Ciel could agree to split up the transponders so that they are broadcasting on different frequencies, or it could be that one of them agrees to use spotbeams only, or some mix and match of the above


So if they were using the same frequency and the beams crossed paths, there could be interference, but if they were different frequencies there would be no interference?


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> I'm not sure BSS from 103º will be CONUS, but there's a lot of balls bouncing around on this right now. Ciel holds a Canadian BSS license for service from 103º as well, along with plans to launch their satellite later this year. Directv and Ciel will have to coordinate all BSS usage from 103º to avoid interfering with one another. What this means is that Directv and Ciel could agree to split up the transponders so that they are broadcasting on different frequencies, or it could be that one of them agrees to use spotbeams only, or some mix and match of the above


Crap, forgot about Ceil, been laughing at S5 so much


----------



## hdtvfan0001

raoul5788 said:


> So if they were using the same frequency and *the beams crossed paths*, there could be interference, but if they were different frequencies there would be no interference?


Everyone knows you shouldn't cross the streams...that would be bad...


----------



## ffemtreed

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Everyone knows you shouldn't cross the streams...that would be bad...


how else are you supposed to defeat the marshmellow man??????


----------



## doctor j

It looks as if 0x03A8 firmware is being rolled out to HR2x 's this AM as reported on redh.com ,Doug's firmware monitor.

New NR's usually roll out west coast to the east.
Any west coaster's with new firmware today?

I would be interested in info on Signal Strength screens.
I believe D-10 is now being reported as 103 ca. Wonder if SS screen 103cb is being activated?

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> It looks as if 0x03A8 firmware is being rolled out to HR2x 's this AM as reported on redh.com ,Doug's firmware monitor.
> 
> New NR's usually roll out west coast to the east.
> Any west coaster's with new firmware today?
> 
> I would be interested in info on Signal Strength screens.
> I believe D-10 is now being reported as 103 ca. Wonder if SS screen 103cb is being activated?
> 
> Doctor j


D10 will be 103 (cb), with D12 as 103 (ca) - hopefully soon!

The best way to remember it ... D10/D11 need *b*-band converters if non-SWM.

D12 national/CONUS is using upper band (with Spaceway-1).


----------



## houskamp

doctor j said:


> It looks as if 0x03A8 firmware is being rolled out to HR2x 's this AM as reported on redh.com ,Doug's firmware monitor.
> 
> New NR's usually roll out west coast to the east.
> Any west coaster's with new firmware today?
> 
> I would be interested in info on Signal Strength screens.
> I believe D-10 is now being reported as 103 ca. Wonder if SS screen 103cb is being activated?
> 
> Doctor j


 don't belive it takes an firmware update to add transponders.. think it part of the guide data..


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

I've had 0x3A8 since the 19th 

my map for 103°(cb) reads:


Code:


1-8   91  95  85  85  89  94  84  86
9-16  91  94  86  88  91  95  N/A N/A
17-24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
25-32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A

Which is odd, since I usually get well into the 90's for most everything, and it's a mostly clear day here.

103°(ca) doesn't show up yet.


----------



## P Smith

houskamp said:


> don't belive it takes an firmware update to add transponders.. think it part of the guide data..


You should, because new designators like "(ca)" or "(cb)" require update FW. Also real (physical) and logical number seen on that screens with transponders must be translating inside of FW.


----------



## LameLefty

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Which is odd, since I usually get well into the 90's for most everything, and it's a mostly clear day here.


Give it a few days to see what you end up with. Directv got authorization from the FCC late last week (finally) to drift both D10 and SW1 by about 18.4 miles to make additional room for D12. Signal strengths might vary a bit as a result.


----------



## houskamp

P Smith said:


> You should, because new designators like "(ca)" or "(cb)" require update FW. Also real (physical) and logical number seen on that screens with transponders must be translating inside of FW.


 IIRC the last one just showed up overnight.. same firmware, just the "N/A"s dissapeared.


----------



## P Smith

houskamp said:


> IIRC the last one just showed up overnight.. same firmware, just the "N/A"s dissapeared.


So, I get this post as acceptance of necessary to update FW for new satellite.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> So, I get this post as acceptance of necessary to update FW for new satellite.


That's not what he's saying at all. He's saying that the firmware may already have code to display "103(cb)" signals that's being masked until the Guide data says to display it, much like the "n/a" entries all disappeared from earlier screens without the need for a firmware update.


----------



## P Smith

The he was wrong again. I would demonstrate to him how old FW [before D10, D11, D12] shows current configuration of satellites. With a lot of omissions and different tpn plan on signal lever screen.


----------



## Sixto

Would assume that we need the new firmware (0x03A8/0x43A8) for 103(ca) and 103(cb) to display properly.

Once 103(cb) displays, would assume 103(ca) can happen without a firmware update, but not exactly sure.

Once 103(ca) appears, individual transponders can come and go.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Would assume that we need the new firmware (0x03A8/0x43A8) for 103(ca) and 103(cb) to display properly.
> 
> Once 103(cb) displays, would assume 103(ca) can happen without a firmware update, but not exactly sure.
> 
> Once 103(ca) appears, individual transponders can come and go.


Thanks for the correction about ca / cb. I knew that but was "excited" about the new NR . Also I think I understand it such that if the NR does have D-10 listed as 103 cb then 103 ca is probably available and just hidden. When your guide data shows new channels, then the new SS screen will be available.

Just means a few other things to compulsively check daily!!??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Thanks for the correction about ca / cb. I knew that but was "excited" about the new NR . Also I think I understand it such that if the NR does have D-10 listed as 103 cb then 103 ca is probably available and just hidden. When your guide data shows new channels, then the new SS screen will be available.
> 
> Just means a few other things to compulsively check daily!!??
> 
> Doctor j


Would think we'd see 103 (ca) well before new channels, with zero's or N/A, but maybe they'll wait.


----------



## levibluewa

just showing 101-110-119-99a-99b-103a-103b; software version 0x4162


----------



## evan_s

MicroBeta said:


> I would suspect that it'll increase the national HD channels as well as more locals. Probably sports packages too.
> 
> I wouldn't think they'd put up a satellite and not use it provide content to us...
> 
> Mike


We can be fairly sure that RB2A won't be used for national HD channels as it contains no Conus BSS transponders. It only has 4 spot beams. Those 4 spot beams seem to be sending the same set of 20 tps to all 4 locations. It's hard to say what this might be used for given this.

For the eventual RB2 sat Conus might be possible but as has been mentioned 103 BSS has multiple licenses with a Canadian company, ciel, that actually has the highest priority license from the ITU (i guess Canada moved faster on approving licenses and passing that on to the ITU). This will most likely mean they will use it for providing coverage to all of Canada and DirecTV will have to work around their signal. That would probably result in DirecTV using it for spot beams to provide locals in the mid and southern states while avoiding the northern states.


----------



## LameLefty

evan_s said:


> We can be fairly sure that RB2A won't be used for national HD channels as it contains no Conus BSS transponders. It only has 4 spot beams. Those 4 spot beams seem to be sending the same set of 20 tps to all 4 locations. It's hard to say what this might be used for given this.


My theory on this is that it'll either duplicate existing content in BSS band frequencies (and a subset of customers in those areas will get BSS-specific equipment as part of a pilot program), or those four areas will be used for specific programming packages that might require new additional equipment anyway, like a test area for a greatly-expanded set of internationals or something.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> My theory on this is that it'll either duplicate existing content in BSS band frequencies (and a subset of customers in those areas will get BSS-specific equipment as part of a pilot program), or those four areas will be used for specific programming packages that might require new additional equipment anyway, like a test area for a greatly-expanded set of internationals or something.


Could that capability be used for Alaska/Hawaii transmissions?


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> My theory on this is that it'll either duplicate existing content in BSS band frequencies (and a subset of customers in those areas will get BSS-specific equipment as part of a pilot program), or those four areas will be used for specific programming packages that might require new additional equipment anyway, like a test area for a greatly-expanded set of internationals or something.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Could that capability be used for Alaska/Hawaii transmissions?


D12-RB2A Footprints

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Could that capability be used for Alaska/Hawaii transmissions?


I don't recall where those four spotbeams are pointed but maybe. I seem to remember that one of them IS pointed toward Alaska but I'm not certain. It's buried in all the FCC documents I've been reading for the past year or so. :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I don't recall where those four spotbeams are pointed but maybe. I seem to remember that one of them IS pointed toward Alaska but I'm not certain. It's buried in all the FCC documents I've been reading for the past year or so. :grin:


Per Alan's post, it appears Alaska is a possibility.

The reason I asked was twofold:

1) That might result in a benefit for DirecTV serving Alaska without using existing resources

2) That would also potentially explain why the Canadian folks are less than happy with a beam that could overlap some of their turf

Interesting.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Alan Gordon said:


> D12-RB2A Footprints
> 
> ~Alan


What do they plan for the chicago / milwaukee beams that seem to have a lot over lap?

Are they planing on having the FULL OTA line up + (other local non OTA stuff) for chicago area?


----------



## LameLefty

JoeTheDragon said:


> What do they plan for the chicago / milwaukee beams that seem to have a lot over lap?
> 
> Are they planing on having the FULL OTA line up + (other local non OTA stuff) for chicago area?


None of the four RB-2A beams is centered on Chicago.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

LameLefty said:


> None of the four RB-2A beams is centered on Chicago.


but the non RB-2A ones are.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2229401#post2229401


----------



## LameLefty

JoeTheDragon said:


> but the non RB-2A ones are.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2229401#post2229401


Directv has already said D12 is meant to provide on-orbit redundancy for some of the capabilities of D10 and D11. I wouldn't expect much change to the locals in most existing markets.


----------



## Sixto

The 2/11 filing (before testing started) anticipated RB-2A testing to begin 3/3. 

The 2/16 filing (for the earth station extension) anticipated RB-2A testing complete by 3/5.

It's possible that between 2/11 and 2/16, that the schedule improved a little and possibly even better today ... or not. 

But the latest update does show a very slight change, could just be related to the testing, or better. 

P.S. The drift STA isn't granted yet.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> The 2/11 filing (before testing started) anticipated RB-2A testing to begin 3/3.
> 
> The 2/16 filing (for the earth station extension) anticipated RB-2A testing complete by 3/5.
> 
> But the latest update does show a very slight change, could just be related to the testing, or better.


Or maybe DirecTV has been convinced by the strength of Spectrum 5's arguments and decided not to test BSS anymore and get the satellite live in Ka.

ps: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Same 12km gap today, may just be related to testing. Post#1 always has the details.


----------



## P Smith

Perhaps they decreased inclination to stabilize spot beams, but the correction did increase the gap.


----------



## spear61

The transmit beam footprints from Canada's (Ciel) 103W-17ghz ITU filing.

The dark contour is -10 dBw and looks like it provides complete Conus coverage.


----------



## LameLefty

spear61 said:


> The transmit beam footprints from Canada's (Ciel) 103W-17ghz ITU filing.
> 
> The dark contour is -10 dBw and looks like it provides complete Conus coverage.


Of course, they don't hold an FCC license for that frequency band to the U.S. either; if Ciel and Directv don't work something out, it could get . . . messy.


----------



## V'ger

Sixto said:


> Same 12km gap today, may just be related to testing. Post#1 always has the details.


Heard the earthquake in Chile sped up the earth.... but it was only 1 millionth of a second per day. At first, I thought it might have an impact on geosynchronous satellites, but it won't.


----------



## cartrivision

V'ger;2379496 said:


> Heard the earthquake in Chile sped up the earth.... but it was only 1 millionth of a second per day. At first, I thought it might have an impact on geosynchronous satellites, but it won't.


It absolutely will affect geosynchronous satellites. Reports from the scientific community are a that the earthquake probably changed the earth's axis by a few inches, and changed the length of a day by about a microsecond, so if the stationkeepers of geosynchronous satellites don't compensate for those differences in the earth's axis and rotational period, in the future their satellites won't be where they would have been if the earthquake hadn't have happened. On a positive note, this won't be a significant issue for any geosynchronous satellite that doesn't have a life expectancy of many millions of years.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Of course, they don't hold an FCC license for that frequency band to the U.S. either; if Ciel and Directv don't work something out, it could get . . . messy.


It's just hard for me to believe that Ciel LP genuinely believes the ITU has the right or ability to dictate policy to the FCC for domestic satellite service to the U.S territory.

Sort of like someone waving a U.N. resolution in the face of a sovereign government and saying "Hey, you guys got'a comply and fall in line now."

Yeah right  ....

I mean sure, in the interest of international amenities I may comply with some aspects as long as they do not conflict with what's best for my country, but beyond that, well ... you know what you can do with your international resolutions. :nono:


----------



## dpeters11

cartrivision said:


> It absolutely will affect geosynchronous satellites. Reports from the scientific community are a that the earthquake probably changed the earth's axis by a few inches, and changed the length of a day by about a microsecond, so if the stationkeepers of geosynchronous satellites don't compensate for those differences in the earth's axis and rotational period, in the future their satellites won't be where they would have been if the earthquake hadn't have happened. On a positive note, this won't be a significant issue for any geosynchronous satellite that doesn't have a life expectancy of many millions of years.


And this isn't an isolated incident, in terms of changing the axis. The big quake that caused the tsunami in the Pacific a few years ago changed it even more. One article I read said that if China filled the Three Rivers Gourge resevoir completely, it would lengthen the day by .006 seconds or thereabouts. It's happened before, this time it just made the press.


----------



## Sixto

A little higher gap (18). Post#1.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> It's just hard for me to believe that Ciel LP genuinely believes the ITU has the right or ability to dictate policy to the FCC for domestic satellite service to the U.S territory.
> 
> Sort of like someone waving a U.N. resolution in the face of a sovereign government and saying "Hey, you guys got'a comply and fall in line now."
> 
> Yeah right  ....
> 
> I mean sure, in the interest of international amenities I may comply with some aspects as long as they do not conflict with what's best for my country, but beyond that, well ... you know what you can do with your international resolutions. :nono:


Well look at it from Ciel's perspective: the ITU grants GSO slots around the world; pretty much every nation is a signatory and agree to be bound by its determination, since there are only so many slots to go around. The ITU granted both Canada and the U.S. rights to BSS from the 103º slot. Ciel's application and authorization from Canadian regulatory agencies pre-dates Directv's from the FCC. It's not hard to see why they believe they have priority, at least in terms of making sure Directv's broadcasts don't interfere with theirs.


----------



## raoul5788

Sixto said:


> A little higher gap (18). Post#1.


Is this an indication that they are getting ready to move to 103?


----------



## Sixto

raoul5788 said:


> Is this an indication that they are getting ready to move to 103?


It may be due to BSS testing. Or not.


----------



## jefbal99

raoul5788 said:


> Is this an indication that they are getting ready to move to 103?


Last communication with the FCC was testing wouldn't complete until 3/5.

Could this movement be part of orienting the bird to test specific antennas at specific locations?


----------



## yosoyellobo

LameLefty said:


> Well look at it from Ciel's perspective: the ITU grants GSO slots around the world; pretty much every nation is a signatory and agree to be bound by its determination, since there are only so many slots to go around. The ITU granted both Canada and the U.S. rights to BSS from the 103º slot. Ciel's application and authorization from Canadian regulatory agencies pre-dates Directv's from the FCC. It's not hard to see why they believe they have priority, at least in terms of making sure Directv's broadcasts don't interfere with theirs.


Just how many slots are available?


----------



## jefbal99

yosoyellobo said:


> Just how many slots are available?


Depends on the communications Band. Different comunications bands require different spacing.


----------



## DirectMan

I am a little confused regarding the designation of D12 as I understand it will be 103 (ca), as 103 (cb) is apparently the new designation of the Conus transponders of D10. I assume from the ranking of a and b that D12 will be the primary Conus satellite at 103 and D10 will be backup or supplemental.

But what about the D12 spotbeams? My belief or understanding is that they will be direct replacements for the spotbeams of D10. Currently they are displayed as 103 (s). Should we assume that one day in the near future the spotbeams in 103 (s) will eminate from D12, and thus that is the reason that there has not been a 103 (sa) and 103 (sb) designation.

If 103 (s) represents the spotbeams of D10 and SW1, why not keep the same designation of 103 (c) representing the conus beams of D12 and D10?

Can it be that they have tested the D12 spotbeams at 76 degrees, but cannot test the conus beams without interfering with existing D10 conus transponders and thus need to keep the two designations until testing is over?


----------



## evan_s

DirectMan said:


> I am a little confused regarding the designation of D12 as I understand it will be 103 (ca), as 103 (cb) is apparently the new designation of the Conus transponders of D10. I assume from the ranking of a and b that D12 will be the primary Conus satellite at 103 and D10 will be backup or supplemental.
> 
> But what about the D12 spotbeams? My belief or understanding is that they will be direct replacements for the spotbeams of D10. Currently they are displayed as 103 (s). Should we assume that one day in the near future the spotbeams in 103 (s) will eminate from D12, and thus that is the reason that there has not been a 103 (sa) and 103 (sb) designation.
> 
> If 103 (s) represents the spotbeams of D10 and SW1, why not keep the same designation of 103 (c) representing the conus beams of D12 and D10?
> 
> Can it be that they have tested the D12 spotbeams at 76 degrees, but cannot test the conus beams without interfering with existing D10 conus transponders and thus need to keep the two designations until testing is over?


My best guess is that D10 and D12 combined would have 30 Conus TPs and all the signal strength screens are setup for 32. This would mean it would be almost full and very little room for additional Conus tps in the future with out making a chance to something like the 103ca and 103cb. With spot beams, on the other hand, they have far viewer tp's over all. 10 from D10 or D12 and 6 more from SW1. I could see some point in the future when they are running more than 32 conus tps from either 99 or 103 since there are 48 total TPs available. Just turning back on the additional 2 conus tps that they ran on D10 before D11 was launched would put them at 32.


----------



## bobnielsen

DirectMan said:


> I am a little confused regarding the designation of D12 as I understand it will be 103 (ca), as 103 (cb) is apparently the new designation of the Conus transponders of D10. I assume from the ranking of a and b that D12 will be the primary Conus satellite at 103 and D10 will be backup or supplemental.
> 
> But what about the D12 spotbeams? My belief or understanding is that they will be direct replacements for the spotbeams of D10. Currently they are displayed as 103 (s). Should we assume that one day in the near future the spotbeams in 103 (s) will eminate from D12, and thus that is the reason that there has not been a 103 (sa) and 103 (sb) designation.
> 
> If 103 (s) represents the spotbeams of D10 and SW1, why not keep the same designation of 103 (c) representing the conus beams of D12 and D10?
> 
> Can it be that they have tested the D12 spotbeams at 76 degrees, but cannot test the conus beams without interfering with existing D10 conus transponders and thus need to keep the two designations until testing is over?


The a and b designations refer to frequency. The CONUS beams from D12 will use the upper Ka (a) band, while D10 uses lower Ka (b) band, hence the a/b designations (b-band requires the b-band converters for non-SWM installations other than with the H/HR23). Both use lower Ka for spotbeams, so there is no need to identify them separately.


----------



## spear61

LameLefty said:


> Well look at it from Ciel's perspective: the ITU grants GSO slots around the world; pretty much every nation is a signatory and agree to be bound by its determination, since there are only so many slots to go around. The ITU granted both Canada and the U.S. rights to BSS from the 103º slot. Ciel's application and authorization from Canadian regulatory agencies pre-dates Directv's from the FCC. It's not hard to see why they believe they have priority, at least in terms of making sure Directv's broadcasts don't interfere with theirs.


Correct. And while Canada has priority rights to "transmit" without interference, they do not have and may not get a FCC license for their signal to be "received" by ground stations in the US while Directv does have such a license.


----------



## P Smith

Ciel will lend the band to dish.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Ciel will lend the band to dish.


 was that band as in band width, or band as in rubber band.:sure:


----------



## P Smith

Reversed DSS band, smarty.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Ciel will lend the band to dish.


Not likely. Dish has their own BSS licenses from the FCC and they're not from 103º. Furthermore, Ciel is not licensed by the FCC to provide service to the U.S.

So, no.


----------



## P Smith

jefbal99 said:


> Depends on the communications Band. Different comunications bands require different spacing.


And dish sizes - C-band could separate 2 degree, Ku/Ka - 4 degree apart.


----------



## P Smith

I wouldn't say no - dish went to Mexico sat position/service, so using Ciel capacity for cover US is possible.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't say no - dish went to Mexico sat position/service, so using Ciel capacity for cover US is possible.


Not unless the FCC says so. And so far there's no indication that either Ciel or Dish are interested. As I said, Dish has their own BSS licenses (which have been discussed in this thread before if you don't want to search the FCC site) and Ciel has Canadian but not U.S. licenses.

The whole idea is a non-starter.


----------



## V'ger

LameLefty said:


> Not unless the FCC says so. And so far there's no indication that either Ciel or Dish are interested. As I said, Dish has their own BSS licenses (which have been discussed in this thread before if you don't want to search the FCC site) and Ciel has Canadian but not U.S. licenses.
> 
> The whole idea is a non-starter.


A problem is that 80 percent of Canada lives within 100 miles of the US border. It is impossible to contour a beam to provide service to the majority of Canada's population and not have the beam go into the US. The only solution is to divide the transponders between D* and Ciel.


----------



## LameLefty

V'ger;2380593 said:


> A problem is that 80 percent of Canada lives within 100 miles of the US border. It is impossible to contour a beam to provide service to the majority of Canada's population and not have the beam go into the US.* The only solution is to divide the transponders between D* and Ciel.*


Well, yeah. Assuming Ciel wants to do that. If they don't, then the ITU will have a mess to resolve. Frankly, I don't know what provisions the ITU has to resolve disputes. I believe that Ciel is generally correct, however, in that they have priority since they were the first organization to obtain a transmission license from their national regulatory authority.

Fortunately, Directv also holds BSS licenses for two slots that are not contested this way.


----------



## houskamp

LameLefty said:


> Well, yeah. Assuming Ciel wants to do that. If they don't, then the ITU will have a mess to resolve. Frankly, I don't know what provisions the ITU has to resolve disputes. I believe that Ciel is generally correct, however, in that they have priority since they were the first organization to obtain a transmission license from their national regulatory authority.
> 
> Fortunately, Directv also holds BSS licenses for two slots that are not contested this way.


 actualy that sounds like a good reason to test on one headed for 103.. test there and then launch the main ones to the uncontested spots..


----------



## LameLefty

houskamp said:


> actualy that sounds like a good reason to test on one headed for 103.. test there and then launch the main ones to the uncontested spots..


You may have just put your finger on the reason why D12 carries those 4 BSS spotbeams.


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> Fortunately, Directv also holds BSS licenses for two slots that are not contested this way.


Of course, you know this means they have to launch two more satellites.


----------



## bobnielsen

wmb said:


> Of course, you know this means they have to launch two more satellites.


Which I am sure they are planning on, or they wouldn't have paid for the licenses. There is a time frame involved (5 years?) or the licenses get revoked.


----------



## RAD

wmb said:


> Of course, you know this means they have to launch two more satellites.


It would be nice to see those birds on order.


----------



## houskamp

aren't a few of the old ones getting close to end of life?


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> Of course, you know this means they have to launch two more satellites.


Well sure. They've already put up the performance bonds for them ($3M each, I believe).



bobnielsen said:


> Which I am sure they are planning on, or they wouldn't have paid for the licenses. There is a time frame involved (5 years?) or the licenses get revoked.


Yep, I think that's correct. There are various milestones. They have something like a year from the date the licenses are issued to have a satellite ordered. That makes it September, I believe. Sixto probably remembers off-hand but I'm too lazy tonight to go and look. 



RAD said:


> It would be nice to see those birds on order.


"Soon." :grin:



houskamp said:


> aren't a few of the old ones getting close to end of life?


I suspect Directv has plans on the books to replace some of the first Ku band spotbeam sats.


----------



## RAD

RAD said:


> It would be nice to see those birds on order.





LameLefty said:


> "Soon." :grin:
> 
> I suspect Directv has plans on the books to replace some of the first Ku band spotbeam sats.


Not to sure about the soon part since on the 4th quarter financial call, White said that nothing was on order now and later this year the board would meet to discuss ordering A satellite, just not sure if it would be a replacement or spare, no mention of additonal capacity satellite.


----------



## RobertE

RAD said:


> Not to sure about the soon part since on the 4th quarter financial call, White said that nothing was on order now and later this year the board would meet to discuss ordering A satellite, just not sure if it would be a replacement or spare, no mention of additonal capacity satellite.


Just a guess, but between now and then, I think they will be doing some serious thinking about the full transition to mpeg4 and/or Ka and/or KuBss. It would make a logical "starting" point.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Which I am sure they are planning on, or they wouldn't have paid for the licenses. There is a time frame involved (5 years?) or the licenses get revoked.





LameLefty said:


> Yep, I think that's correct. There are various milestones. They have something like a year from the date the licenses are issued to have a satellite ordered. That makes it September, I believe. Sixto probably remembers off-hand but I'm too lazy tonight to go and look.


1. File a bond for $3M within 30 days of the grant.

2. Execute a binding contract for construction within 1 year.

3. Complete the Critical Design Review within 2 years.

4. Commence construction within 3 years.

5. Launch and begin operations with 5 years.


----------



## levibluewa

Should one expect to see any change in the 103a, 103b display before the new sat has been moved over to 103?

I've seen posts where some are seeing 103ca,103cb?


----------



## cebbigh

levibluewa said:


> Should one expect to see any change in the 103a, 103b display before the new sat has been moved over to 103?
> 
> I've seen posts where some are seeing 103ca,103cb?


Yes. There is a software rolling out on the HR2x receivers. I haven't gotten it yet either.


----------



## Sixto

Both the H21/H23 (0x43A8) and HR2x (0x03A8) are getting a new NR with the modified signal strength screen(s). 

Not sure what the plan is for the H20.


----------



## FHSPSU67

levibluewa said:


> Should one expect to see any change in the 103a, 103b display before the new sat has been moved over to 103?
> 
> I've seen posts where some are seeing 103ca,103cb?


On the H20 receivers: For the 99 sats and 103 sats, the a's and b's only designate conus and spot transponders. On 99 the (a) designates the spot beams and (b) designates the conus transponders. This is reversed on the 103 sats - (b) designates spots and (a) designates conus. Confusing enough?
Soon you will see changes to the 103 displays that will use (c) for conus and (s) for spots ie: 103c and 103s. This will also happen for 99. (takes deep breath 
Eventually (soon), 103cb and 103ca will show up to designate the D10 and D12 sats.
Please read the 1st post of this thread because it explains alot, and please forgive me ( evrybody) if I got my (a)'s and (b)'s mixed up somewhere along the line.
[edit] Good morning Sixto!
I'm sorry I trampled over your answer


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Not to sure about the soon part since on the 4th quarter financial call, White said that nothing was on order now and later this year the board would meet to discuss ordering A satellite, just not sure if it would be a replacement or spare, no mention of additonal capacity satellite.


I think Mr. White was speaking generically, perhaps not having had a chance to fully grasp the details of the long-term tech roadmap. Satellite operators HAVE to think long-term: every time you launch a satellite, you have to know that there's only about a 60% - 70% chance it'll remain fully operational for its full 12 - 15 year lifespan. Those earliest spotbeam sats are getting to the point where some contract options will likely have to be exercised in the next 2 - 3 years if they don't want to take them out of service.

However, as RobertE suggests, perhaps the plan is to let them get to EOL, put them into graveyard orbits, and convert all the SD customers to MPEG4 boxes and make 'em watch the Ku-band HD locals down-rez'd to SD (kind of like the R22 if you don't have HD access on your account).

But in any event, Directv HAS to have the three full RB/BSS band satellites on order within a year of having their licenses granted or forfeit their performance bonds.


----------



## Sixto

The RB grant(s) have 7/28/2010 as the date for executing a binding contract for construction.


----------



## RAD

LameLefty said:


> I think Mr. White was speaking generically, perhaps not having had a chance to fully grasp the details of the long-term tech roadmap. Satellite operators HAVE to think long-term: every time you launch a satellite, you have to know that there's only about a 60% - 70% chance it'll remain fully operational for its full 12 - 15 year lifespan. Those earliest spotbeam sats are getting to the point where some contract options will likely have to be exercised in the next 2 - 3 years if they don't want to take them out of service.
> 
> However, as RobertE suggests, perhaps the plan is to let them get to EOL, put them into graveyard orbits, and convert all the SD customers to MPEG4 boxes and make 'em watch the Ku-band HD locals down-rez'd to SD (kind of like the R22 if you don't have HD access on your account).
> 
> But in any event, Directv HAS to have the three full RB/BSS band satellites on order within a year of having their licenses granted or forfeit their performance bonds.





Sixto said:


> The RB grant(s) have 7/28/2010 as the date for executing a binding contract for construction.


Then lets just hope that Mr. White, being the new kid on the block, isn't up to speed and there will be more then an order for A satellite to be placed this year.


----------



## ATARI

RAD said:


> Then lets just hope that Mr. White, being the new kid on the block, isn't up to speed and there will be more then an order for A satellite to be placed this year.


I'm confident he has people under him that keep him posted on what needs to get done and when.

If not, maybe he should start reading DBSTalk


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> The FCC approvals from 7/28/2009 ... the Notes are from early September last time I checked:
> 
> 
> 
> *FCC Application*
> |
> *Company*
> |
> *Callsign*
> |
> *Slot*
> |
> *Notes*
> 
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00031|Intelsat|S2662|91°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00042|Pegasus|S2698|91°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00099|DirecTV|S2711|99°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00029|Intelsat|S2660|99°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00100|DirecTV |S2712|103°|Paid
> |
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00049|DirecTV|	S2242|107°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00052|EchoStar|S2442|107°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00043|Pegasus|S2699|107°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00051|EchoStar|S2441|111°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050|DirecTV|	S2243|111°|Paid


All three DirecTV grants have a due date of July 2010 for a construction contract.

RB-1 is 99, RB-2 is 103, RB-4 is 111.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Newest update downloaded yesterday.

Now seeing 103cb.


----------



## tkrandall

Ed Campbell said:


> Newest update downloaded yesterday.
> 
> Now seeing 103cb.


what model?


----------



## Ed Campbell

HR20-700


----------



## oldfantom

Ed, is that a CE release?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I believe you'll see that in the national release of 0x03A8.


----------



## RAD

Stuart Sweet said:


> I believe you'll see that in the national release of 0x02A8.


I think Stuart really means 0x03A8.


----------



## Ed Campbell

What he said.


----------



## HoTat2

FHSPSU67 said:


> On the H20 receivers: For the 99 sats and 103 sats, the a's and b's only designate conus and spot transponders. On 99 the (a) designates the spot beams and (b) designates the conus transponders. This is reversed on the 103 sats - (b) designates spots and (a) designates conus. Confusing enough? .... please forgive me ( evrybody) if I got my (a)'s and (b)'s mixed up somewhere along the line.
> [edit] Good morning Sixto!
> I'm sorry I trampled over your answer


Don't worry, your forgiven 

Since you actually have it backwards. Under the old nomenclature still used by the H20's 99(a) is actually the CONUS beam transponders of D11 and 99(b) a combination of D11 and SW2's spotbeams. And of course the opposite for 103, with 103(b) the CONUS beam tps. of D10 and the combo of D10 and SW1's spotbeams for 103(a).

However of note, SW1 at 103 is presently down to only a single active transponder in preparation for the arrival of D12 to which it will now share spectrum with on the Ka-hi or "A" band.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Thanks, HoTat! 
I just did the same exercise as I did yesterday - Running downstairs to my H20-100, pulling up the signal screens, and trying to remember what I saw as I ran back up to my computer. You are absolutely correct.
It must have had something to do with my turning 65 yesterday:blush:


----------



## jefbal99

So, according to the last D12 filing, BSS testing is supposed to complete today. TIme to start watching space-track for new TLEs that we are drifting to 103


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ed Campbell said:


> What he said.


Yeah, yeah, 0x03A8. Sorry.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> So, according to the last D12 filing, BSS testing is supposed to complete today. TIme to start watching space-track for new TLEs that we are drifting to 103


Never stopped watching, just posting. 

Post#1 has the latest.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Never stopped watching, just posting.
> 
> Post#1 has the latest.


I meant for me to start watching again


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> I meant for me to start watching again


The more the merrier!

And hopefully, soon we should be very Merry! 

Or should I say celebrating a Festivus. Certainly within the 60-day mark now.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> The more the merrier!
> 
> And hopefully, soon we should be very Merry!
> 
> Or should I say celebrating a Festivus. Certainly within the 60-day mark now.


I'm a glass half full guy and hoping for closer to 45 days...


----------



## Nighthawk68

So if they are rolling out new software to our boxes that will destinguish between 103ca and 103cb, how about at the 101 location? Why not seperate those too, 3 SATS there 2 in use and 1 backup IIRC? Does anyone know which transponders on the 101 are coming from which satellites?


----------



## evan_s

Nitehawk^ said:


> So if they are rolling out new software to our boxes that will destinguish between 103ca and 103cb, how about at the 101 location? Why not seperate those too, 3 SATS there 2 in use and 1 backup IIRC? Does anyone know which transponders on the 101 are coming from which satellites?


All three sats are in use. D4S provides spot beams for locals. D8 provides odd Conus TPs and D9s provides even Conus tps and more spots for locals. They could break 101 up if they wanted to but I don't think there is any reason to. It would never be possible to have more than the 32 conus tps they already display active from there.

For 103 the difference is the ka hi vs the ka lo band and not the particular sat I'd think. With a total of 48 tps possible you couldn't fix all of ka hi and lo on a single page if they used all the tps for conus signals.


----------



## P Smith

Nitehawk^ said:


> So if they are rolling out new software to our boxes that will destinguish between 103ca and 103cb, how about at the 101 location? Why not seperate those too, 3 SATS there 2 in use and 1 backup IIRC? Does anyone know which transponders on the 101 are coming from which satellites?


Check gct's tables.


----------



## steveken

JeffBowser said:


> Anything they do to stay competitive and be attractive to a broad base of users is good for us. They need to stay healthy and moving forward, regardless if the upgrade du-jour is of particular use to you personally.


That was from a few days ago.

In my mind, quite honestly, this business about their continuing to add more stuff isn't really all that good for us as consumers. I mean, I look at it this way, EVERY year my rates continue to go up and up. I know they have to recover the costs for all this stuff they do, and they do it by increasing rates to pay for their staying competitive along with the increase in the licensing terms they pay the content providers, but when is this rate increase business going to reach a final limit?

I am like everyone else, I want new stuff from DirecTV. That takes money. It takes money to pay for the content they give us. But again, there has to be a point at which they can not possibly raise our rates any more. Is that point when we are all paying $150 for the basic type stuff from DirecTV and the high end package starts out at $200? I just believe that there has GOT to be a point when they stop jacking up our prices just for the sake of profit. They are bleeding me and a lot of other people dry. I love the service and I don't want to have to do without it.

So, I am glad they are doing things like adding D12, but I wish they would learn how to do things in a manner which wouldn't include passing along a rate increase to the end user year after year. $2 or $3 a year adds up to a heck of a lot over the lifetime of a subscriber. It can be overwhelming at a point. I know at that point, if its too much for me, I have other options, but again, I don't want to leave DirecTV because I love their service. I just want the reigns to be pulled in a little bit on the rate increases. 

Sorry, I know, back on topic!!! I am finished.


----------



## Wesro

steveken said:


> That was from a few days ago.
> 
> In my mind, quite honestly, this business about their continuing to add more stuff isn't really all that good for us as consumers. I mean, I look at it this way, EVERY year my rates continue to go up and up. I know they have to recover the costs for all this stuff they do, and they do it by increasing rates to pay for their staying competitive along with the increase in the licensing terms they pay the content providers, but when is this rate increase business going to reach a final limit?
> 
> I am like everyone else, I want new stuff from DirecTV. That takes money. It takes money to pay for the content they give us. But again, there has to be a point at which they can not possibly raise our rates any more. Is that point when we are all paying $150 for the basic type stuff from DirecTV and the high end package starts out at $200? I just believe that there has GOT to be a point when they stop jacking up our prices just for the sake of profit. They are bleeding me and a lot of other people dry. I love the service and I don't want to have to do without it.
> 
> So, I am glad they are doing things like adding D12, but I wish they would learn how to do things in a manner which wouldn't include passing along a rate increase to the end user year after year. $2 or $3 a year adds up to a heck of a lot over the lifetime of a subscriber. It can be overwhelming at a point. I know at that point, if its too much for me, I have other options, but again, I don't want to leave DirecTV because I love their service. I just want the reigns to be pulled in a little bit on the rate increases.
> 
> Sorry, I know, back on topic!!! I am finished.


That is just the cost of business. That would be like my boss telling me he was adding more responsibilities to my job without a pay increase. You can't get something for nothing. If DirecTV stopped adding new content and features it wouldn't be long before they were outdated, left behind and out of business.


----------



## Smthkd

Wasn't today the last day for BSS testing? We should see D12 starting to drift to 103 any moment now right?


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> Wasn't today the last day for BSS testing? We should see D12 starting to drift to 103 any moment now right?


Testing is authorized for up to 30 days from 2/13.

While BSS testing may end today, it's not been documented when the overall testing will be complete.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Wesro said:


> That is just the cost of business. That would be like my boss telling me he was adding more responsibilities to my job without a pay increase. You can't get something for nothing. If DirecTV stopped adding new content and features it wouldn't be long before they were outdated, left behind and out of business.


That might be a better comparison if so many people hadn't gotten involuntary pay cuts this year


----------



## jefbal99

Stuart Sweet said:


> That might be a better comparison if so many people hadn't gotten involuntary pay cuts this year


tack on layoffs and the workload increasing for those survivors...


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> That was from a few days ago.
> 
> In my mind, quite honestly, this business about their continuing to add more stuff isn't really all that good for us as consumers. I mean, I look at it this way, EVERY year my rates continue to go up and up. I know they have to recover the costs for all this stuff they do, and they do it by increasing rates to pay for their staying competitive along with the increase in the licensing terms they pay the content providers, but when is this rate increase business going to reach a final limit?
> 
> I am like everyone else, I want new stuff from DirecTV. That takes money. It takes money to pay for the content they give us. But again, there has to be a point at which they can not possibly raise our rates any more. Is that point when we are all paying $150 for the basic type stuff from DirecTV and the high end package starts out at $200? I just believe that there has GOT to be a point when they stop jacking up our prices just for the sake of profit. They are bleeding me and a lot of other people dry. I love the service and I don't want to have to do without it.
> 
> So, I am glad they are doing things like adding D12, but I wish they would learn how to do things in a manner which wouldn't include passing along a rate increase to the end user year after year. $2 or $3 a year adds up to a heck of a lot over the lifetime of a subscriber. It can be overwhelming at a point. I know at that point, if its too much for me, I have other options, but again, I don't want to leave DirecTV because I love their service. I just want the reigns to be pulled in a little bit on the rate increases.
> 
> Sorry, I know, back on topic!!! I am finished.


You raise an interesting point, which really isn't a topic for this thread, but ...

If every layer always raises rates yearly, you do reach a point where the top level monthly number is unreasonable, until maybe you have some radical market correction. This also seems to allow the party at the very bottom to reap the most profit if everyone above just raises their rates to compensate for the level right below, with each party always havings about the same profit %.


----------



## Sixto

More Spectrum Five! (3/5/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=804973​


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Testing is authorized for up to 30 days from 2/13.
> 
> While BSS testing may end today, it's not been documented when the overall testing will be complete.


Yes, but from the FCC documents that we have seen, all testing at 76° would only be done "for up to 30 days", so I suspect that the start of the drift to 103° is imminent and that any further testing that is required will be done at 103°.


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> Yes, but from the FCC documents that we have seen, all testing at 76° would only be done "for up to 30 days", so I suspect that the start of the drift to 103° is imminent and that any further testing that is required will be done at 103°.


Certainly within a week (or an extension).

BTW, the STA for the drift is still not approved.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five! (3/5/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=804973​


Geeze...Whine Much! 

Spectrum is starting to sound like a child throwing a tantrum.

Mike


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five! (3/5/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=804973​


Nothing new. Same old circular logic and absurd arguments about DirecTV cutting in line, despite the fact that DirecTV had already been at the front of the line and was given what was supposed to go to whoever was first in line.... which Spectrum-5 and everyone else knew would only go to whoever was first in line.

Also especially specious is their argument that the operating authority of RB2-A is not "temporary" because they can imagine some unlikely scenario where that temporary operating authority could last 10 years or more, so it's not "temporary" because it could possibly be 10 years or more, and a "temporary" authorization that can possibly be revoked at any time between now and more than 10 years from now still isn't temporary.... because Spectrum-5 (and nobody else) has decided to define that indefinite time period as not temporary.

By Spectrum-5's wacky logic, an operating authority that can be revoked at any time between now and some date in the future, is a "permanent" operating authority.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> More Spectrum Five! (3/5/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=804973​


Damn, if the took all the money they pay their lawyers for this crap, they might be able to actually build and launch a satellite


----------



## kevinwmsn

If Spectrum 5 just needs to shut up and build and successfully launch their satellite. It would be years before anybody else would have a BSS Satellite, it won't conflict. Besides RB-2A is just doing spot beams, not conus coverage.


----------



## wmb

There is one thing in there that is interesting... According to the Spectrum 5 petition, RB-2A is not RB-2. If thats true (I haven't checked the earlier documents), they still need to launch RB-2. That means, D* will need to launch 3 satellites in the next 5 years (and have them under contract by July).

When does Spectrum 5 have to have a satellite under contract?


----------



## ATARI

wmb said:


> When does Spectrum 5 have to have a satellite under contract?


Last week Tuesday.

I kid.


----------



## evan_s

wmb said:


> When does Spectrum 5 have to have a satellite under contract?


Currently never because they haven't been allocated anything.


----------



## R0am3r

I really thought that we would start to see D12 drifting to the West by now. Too soon?


----------



## ATARI

R0am3r said:


> I really thought that we would start to see D12 drifting to the West by now. Too soon?


Should be anyday now.


----------



## Sixto

R0am3r said:


> I really thought that we would start to see D12 drifting to the West by now. Too soon?


Last location update was 12:41am ET Friday.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> Last location update was 12:41am ET Friday.


Any reason why no more updates for the last 2 days ?


----------



## clevfandad

I know, the silence is maddening.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Any reason why no more updates for the last 2 days ?


Sometimes often, sometimes not. Somewhat random, especially on the weekend.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> Sometimes often, sometimes not. Somewhat random, especially on the weekend.


Do you actually have a life outside of DBSTalk.com? How dare you!


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> Do you actually have a life outside of DBSTalk.com? How dare you!


Was referring to when we get the updates. We post 24x7x365.


----------



## bobnielsen

woj027 said:


> Do you actually have a life outside of DBSTalk.com? How dare you!


Actually it's the NORAD folks who have lives.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Actually it's the NORAD folks who have lives.


Exactly.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Actually it's the NORAD folks who have lives.


And those working the night and weekend shifts are busy tracking important stuff (e.g., NOT fully-functional civilian GSO comsats). Stuff like visual spysats, radar ocean reconsats, military comsats, the GPS constellation, earth observing satellites, the newest weather satellite (GOES-P, just launched 3 days ago), the ISS, etc.


----------



## Lord Vader

And don't forget alien beings.


----------



## Jeremy W

Lord Vader said:


> And don't forget alien beings.


Also the black helicopters that are on their way to your house because you said that...


----------



## LameLefty

:backtotop

Thanks!


----------



## Lord Vader

joshjr said:


> A sith or the Sith Lord?


One in the same. Now, back to NORAD'S nocturnal activities.


----------



## Sixto

Updates 99, 100, and 101 all at same time. Came in all at once.

No change (post#1). Still a day old.


----------



## Sixto

The following STA was approved today (3/8/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784447

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805004​
STA is 3/8 to 4/6.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> Updates 99, 100, and 101 all at same time. Came in all at once.
> 
> No change (post#1). Still a day old.


When will the bird start moving to 103 ?


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> When will the bird start moving to 103 ?


"Soon".

Also still awaiting the FCC approval for the drift. Likely within next few days.


----------



## RAD

Well, plug the new coordinates into the old GPS and lets get this puppy moving!


----------



## Sixto

Seems to all be aligned. Testing is approved through 3/13. The STA to communicate with D12 during the Drift is now approved through 4/6. Expect the Drift approval soon. 

Looks like D12 will be drifting last 3 weeks of March.

Approximately.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> Seems to all be aligned. Testing is approved through 3/13. The STA to communicate with D12 during the Drift is now approved through 4/6. Expect the Drift approval soon.
> 
> Looks like D12 will be drifting last 3 weeks of March.
> 
> Approximately.


it could be worse, as in :

Watching, waiting, rising, falling
Listening, calling, drifting

I see your shadow coming closer
And watch you drifting away


----------



## Sixto

D12 Drift Approved! (3/8/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


----------



## matt

Sixto said:


> D12 Drift Approved! (3/8/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


Sweet!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> D12 Drift Approved! (3/8/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


How soon will we see Spectrum whining? 

Drift baby, Drift. 

Mike


----------



## Smthkd

Now we wait for Spectrum Fives whine response! 

Now thats weird I was thing and writing this like you!


----------



## Sixto

Will post and update the title of this thread once we have proof that the D12 drift to 103° has begun.

There is now approval for everything, and there are zero outstanding FCC space station applications. Zero, no outstanding applications for D12, any STA's, or any other future satellite. Every application has been granted.

All good stuff!


----------



## Groundhog45

So far a twenty month adventure. Thanks for keeping us all up to date and giving us a continuing education, *Sixto*, *LameLefty*, and everyone else who has contributed. It's so close we can almost taste it.


----------



## EagleClaw

Thanks to everyone whose kept updating this thread with valuable information. Now it's getting close and the excitement is building 



Sixto said:


> Will post and update the title of this thread once we have proof that the D12 drift to 103° has begun.
> 
> There is now approval for everything, and there are zero outstanding FCC space station applications. Zero, no outstanding applications for D12, any STA's, or any other future satellite. Every application has been granted.
> 
> All good stuff!


----------



## CTJon

Sixto said:


> D12 Drift Approved! (3/8/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


Hard to believe (or maybe not) but things are still being done with hand stamping and handwriting (other than signatures). Satellite communications being done with '60s and earlier communications methods.


----------



## LameLefty

CTJon said:


> Hard to believe (or maybe not) but things are still being done with hand stamping and handwriting (other than signatures). Satellite communications being done with '60s and earlier communications methods.


The originals, yes. Note that they are then scanned into a computer system and made publicly available to everyone in the world within hours. In the 60's, you would have had to go to the FCC International Bureau's offices, paid a fee and requested a copy, whereupon some low-GS level employee would've taken an hour or two to find it, pull it, copy it and give it to you, assuming it could be done that day at all.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CTJon said:


> Hard to believe (or maybe not) but things are still being done with hand stamping and handwriting (other than signatures). Satellite communications being done with '60s and earlier communications methods.


Agree - it is somewhat amazing that my recent drivers license renewal documentation is more sophisticated than this licensing process. 

But the process continues nonetheless, and it appears everything is moving forward with D12 in an orderly way. All good news...late April is not far away anymore.


----------



## wmb

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agree - it is somewhat amazing that my recent drivers license renewal documentation is more sophisticated than this licensing process.
> 
> But the process continues nonetheless, and it appears everything is moving forward with D12 in an orderly way. All good news...late April is not far away anymore.


I would say that the documentation required to obtain the permit to license, build and launch a satellite is orders of magnitude more sophisticated than renewing a drivers license. The difference is in the technolgy used to validate and verify that the driver's license is an official document.

Many people would want to obtain a forged driver's license, but how many would want a forged launch permit?


----------



## gpg

wmb said:


> Many people would want to obtain a forged driver's license, but how many would want a forged launch permit?


Well there's Spectrum 5 :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wmb said:


> I would say that the documentation required to obtain the permit to license, build and launch a satellite is orders of magnitude more sophisticated than renewing a drivers license. The difference is in the technolgy used to validate and verify that the driver's license is an official document.
> 
> Many people would want to obtain a forged driver's license, but how many would want a forged launch permit?


One would think that an electronic signature (which is already secure technology now for several years) would be used for the process.

A rubber stamp and hand-written signature and title underneath is so 60's...


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> One would think that an electronic signature (which is already secure technology now for several years) would be used for the process.
> 
> A rubber stamp and hand-written signature and title underneath is so 60's...


I'm pretty sure that the actual process inside the FCC IB for scanning and posting the original involves electronic signatures.


----------



## bobnielsen

gpg said:


> Well there's Spectrum 5 :lol:


!rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I'm pretty sure that the actual process inside the FCC IB for scanning and posting the original involves electronic signatures.


One would think so/hope so.


----------



## Sixto

Update #102 from 3:28pm ET yesterday still at 76°.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> Update #102 from 3:28pm ET yesterday still at 76°.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


>


They didn't have FCC approval to Drift until late yesterday. And do have testing approval until Saturday.


----------



## LameLefty

To drift from 76ºW to 103ºW is (very) approximately 12,420 miles. The drift will take awhile, which is why they have 30 days to do it. However, I don't think it will necessarily take all 30 days.


----------



## Sixto

Yep, the FCC filing had "over the course of approximately 20 days".


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> They didn't have FCC approval to Drift until late yesterday. And do have testing approval until Saturday.


----------



## tuff bob

gpg said:


> Well there's Spectrum 5 :lol:


pretty sure spectrum 5 will never need a launch permit, forged or real :lol:


----------



## ATARI

tuff bob said:


> pretty sure spectrum 5 will never need a launch permit, forged or real :lol:


----------



## curt8403

tuff bob said:


> pretty sure spectrum 5 will never need a launch permit, forged or real :lol:


 that seems to imply that they will never have a launch, real or forged??


----------



## VeniceDre

I vaguely remember D10 or D11 really never showed a drift and then all of a sudden one day it was parked... I think it was D11? Am I wrong here?


----------



## Lord Vader

LameLefty said:


> To drift from 76ºW to 103ºW is (very) approximately 12,420 miles. The drift will take awhile, which is why they have 30 days to do it. However, I don't think it will necessarily take all 30 days.


They could shave off a lot of time if they employed warp speed, but then that would further strain the dilithium crystals.


----------



## Sixto

VeniceDre said:


> I vaguely remember D10 or D11 really never showed a drift and then all of a sudden one day it was parked... I think it was D11? Am I wrong here?


You are correct, but this is different.

That was for the final park.

Here we're talking a drift over 20 days from the test location to the final location.

But it's similar in that we'll be probably get an update 24-48 hours after the drift has started.

In effect, we're going from parked (at 76°) to unparked (moving to 103°).


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

Is anything wrong with my dish pointing because I am not getting anything at 76°? :eek2:


----------



## bobnielsen

I believe that they are only testing intermittently and with unmodulated carriers which, at most, will show up only on the signal strength screen.


----------



## LameLefty

Lyle Thorogood said:


> Is anything wrong with my dish pointing because I am not getting anything at 76°? :eek2:


You won't see anything at 76º unless #1) your dish is pointed at that orbital slot; and #2) you have an LNB combo that can receive BSS signals (which you probably don't); and #3) you have a receiver or spectrum analyzer and know how to use them to tune to those frequencies (stock Directv systems and software cannot).


----------



## RAD

So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

RAD said:


> So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


My TV antenna is mounted to a pipe like that. Is it supposed to affect reception?


----------



## rey_1178

RAD said:


> So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


i don't think its a big deal where its mounted but the chimney is probably an issue.


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> I believe that they are only testing intermittently and with unmodulated carriers which, at most, will show up only on the signal strength screen.


It's actually kind of SNR values produced by DTV STB, not just strength. FTA STB is different.


----------



## cdhinch

RAD said:


> So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


Actually there shouldn't be any problem. LOS actually looks like it is fine since the LNB is offset from the centerline of the reflector. Since it is offset, then you have to subtract the amount of offset from the centerline of the reflector in order to get the LOS centerline. For example, if the LNB is offset 20 degrees below the centerline of the reflector, then the LOS centerline would be 20 degrees above the reflector centerline. That should put the LOS above the chimney.


----------



## Jeremy W

bobnielsen said:


> I believe that they are only testing intermittently and with unmodulated carriers which, at most, will show up only on the signal strength screen.


An unmodulated carrier wouldn't show up on the signal strength screen at all. The signal strength screen is more of a "signal quality" indicator that relies on the FEC data.


----------



## R0am3r

RAD said:


> So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


I thought the picture was hilarious. I guess humor takes a vacation while we wait for D12 to drift. :lol:


----------



## usnret

> Is anything wrong with my dish pointing because I am not getting anything at 76°?


If that is the bathroom vent pipe, I sure would hate to do any adjusting on that dish.


----------



## Sixto

Back to Topic. 

Still no update.


----------



## ivoaraujo

RAD said:


> So nobody has an issue with the dish's pole just being stuck in a sewer vent line? Or that it looks like the LOS is blocked buy the chimney?


Then he wonders why he only gets crap on TV.


----------



## ATARI

ivoaraujo said:


> Then he wonders why he only gets crap on TV.


{rimshot}


----------



## Darkscream

So - On my signal screen I have 103(ca) and 103 (cb).
Is there any relevance in the fact that there are 16 Transponders on the 103(ca) screen that are all 0's - (9-16 and 17-24).
All the rest are N/A.

Does this tell us anything about how many channels are going to go up - or does it not mean anything ?

Just asking


----------



## Sixto

Darkscream said:


> So - On my signal screen I have 103(ca) and 103 (cb).
> Is there any relevance in the fact that there are 16 Transponders on the 103(ca) screen that are all 0's - (9-16 and 17-24).
> All the rest are N/A.
> 
> Does this tell us anything about how many channels are going to go up - or does it not mean anything ?
> 
> Just asking


Great catch!

103(ca) has arrived!

Zero signal, but it's great that the D12 signal strength screen has arrived.

As expected (see post#1), it includes the 16 national / CONUS transponders (TP9-TP24) for D12.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Great catch!
> 
> 103(ca) has arrived!
> 
> Zero signal, but it's great that the D12 signal strength screen has arrived.
> 
> As expected (see post#1), it includes the 16 national / CONUS transponders (TP9-TP24) for D12.


I just got school girl giddy looking at that screen  Can't wait to see some TPs start lighting up (i know 3 weeks to drift and then parking/testing at 103)


----------



## tuff bob

103cb has lots of signal!!!! :lol:


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> I just got school girl giddy looking at that screen  Can't wait to see some TPs start lighting up (i know 3 weeks to drift and then parking/testing at 103)


Me too.

0's never looked so good!

16 transponders of great bandwidth! 

Soon.


----------



## Rikinky

If D12 goes into it's final position for 3 weeks here in the next couple of days than there may be a remote possibility that they could meet their original deadline of going live on March 31st. Just trying to keep Optimistic. but not holding my breath. I remember Satracer mentioning that things could come alot sooner than originally thought. However the anticipation is definately building!


----------



## Rikinky

How do you guys find that signal? mine says 101? I have the HR23 700


----------



## Rikinky

LoL.. Nevermind I figured it out, I actually had 95 and 94's come up in 103


----------



## Sixto

Rikinky said:


> If D12 goes into it's final position for 3 weeks here in the next couple of days than there may be a remote possibility that they could meet their original deadline of going live on March 31st. Just trying to keep Optimistic. but not holding my breath. I remember Satracer mentioning that things could come alot sooner than originally thought. However the anticipation is definately building!





Rikinky said:


> How do you guys find that signal? mine says 101? I have the HR23 700


April.

Need new NR for new 103 (ca) signal strength screen. 0x43A8 for H2x, 0x03A8 for HR2x.


----------



## Smthkd

Man when is this baby going to start its final drift!


----------



## tkrandall

If I read post #1 correctly, D12 has 16 CONUS Transponders in the Ka high band (most of Ka high) AND it has 10 transponders in the Ka lo band for up to 49 spots (presumably to complement D10's spots)?

Would I be correct that:
The 103(ca) TPs 9-24 are CONUS Ka high and will be from D12 (unless SW1 is allocated some of that load for some reason).

The 103(cb) transponders are CONUS Ka lo and from D10.

The 103(s) transponders could be D10 and/or D12 Ka lo or SW1 Ka hi? Which TPs are lo and which hi?

Likewise, 
99(c) is CONUS D11 transponders Ka lo

99(s) is spots D11 Ka lo and SW2 Ka hi? Again, which TPs are lo and which hi?

Are SW1 and SW2 Ka-lo band capabilities used for any direct to the home services? Or just backhaul, etc?


----------



## joshjr

Its getting closer and closer. I cant wait.


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> If I read post #1 correctly, D12 has 16 CONUS Transponders in the Ka high band (most of Ka high) AND it has 10 transponders in the Ka lo band for up to 49 spots (presumably to complement D10's spots)?
> 
> Would I be correct that:
> The 103(ca) TPs 9-24 are CONUS Ka high and will be from D12 (unless SW1 is allocated some of that load for some reason).
> 
> The 103(cb) transponders are CONUS Ka lo and from D10.
> 
> The 103(s) transponders could be D10 and/or D12 Ka lo or SW1 Ka hi? Which TPs are lo and which hi?
> 
> Likewise,
> 99(c) is CONUS D11 transponders Ka lo
> 
> 99(s) is spots D11 Ka lo and SW2 Ka hi? Again, which TPs are lo and which hi?
> 
> Are SW1 and SW2 Ka-lo band capabilities used for any direct to the home services? Or just backhaul, etc?


103(ca) is all D12 CONUS, no SW1.

103(cb) is all D10 CONUS.

103(s) is D10, D12, and SW1. SW1 is TP1-TP6, D10/D12 are TP15-TP24.


----------



## steveken

My H20-100 is not getting any new firmware. I just forced it and got the 4138 again. I could have sworn all the firmware updates were live by now.


----------



## evan_s

steveken said:


> My H20-100 is not getting any new firmware. I just forced it and got the 4138 again. I could have sworn all the firmware updates were live by now.


They may be live but that doesn't mean everyone has gotten them yet. Forcing an update will almost never get a newer firmware on any active box. Once your box is suppose to have the new firmware it will install it for you and reboot. This should be well before D12 is parked and providing channels.


----------



## Sixto

Haven't seen any indication of how the D12 signal strength screens will appear on an H20.


----------



## Beerstalker

steveken said:


> My H20-100 is not getting any new firmware. I just forced it and got the 4138 again. I could have sworn all the firmware updates were live by now.


As far as I know 4138 is the latest firmware for the H20. The H20 can't do MRV so it uses different firmware then the H21 and H23.


----------



## steveken

Oh well, that's okay I guess. I will probably just go to Nice Try and buy a HR21 or something pretty soon. We have been talking about getting another HD DVR and have a $45 coupon from our rewards card, so that will help a little bit.


----------



## SteveHas

Have I missed any OFFICIAL word what channels we will be getting?


----------



## Sixto

SteveHas said:


> Have I missed any OFFICIAL word what channels we will be getting?


Nope.


----------



## P Smith

steveken said:


> Oh well, that's okay I guess. I will probably just go to Nice Try and buy a HR21 or something pretty soon. We have been talking about getting another HD DVR and have a $45 coupon from our rewards card, so that will help a little bit.


Or open the page www.redh.com/dtv and press F5 each minute to update, then you'll know a moment when your HR must take new FW.


----------



## RobertE

P Smith said:


> Or open the page www.redh.com/dtv and press F5 each minute to update, then you'll know a moment when your HR must take new FW.


That won't do anything other than waste time. No receiver is going to download new firmware unless it's been authorized to do so.


----------



## tkrandall

Sixto said:


> 103(ca) is all D12 CONUS, no SW1.
> 
> 103(cb) is all D10 CONUS.
> 
> 103(s) is D10, D12, and SW1. SW1 is TP1-TP6, D10/D12 are TP15-TP24.


Thanks!

I take it that with D12 using up a lot or most of the Ka hi for CONUS, SW1 will not be able to use all six TPs (also hi band) for "static" spots (hence it having been offloaded recently anyway).

I remain curious as to if/how SW1 will be more comprehensively utilized....and might this involve employing dynamically aimed spots via its phased array antennas.....and for what purpose.


----------



## P Smith

RobertE said:


> That won't do anything other than waste time. No receiver is going to download new firmware unless it's been authorized to do so.


Pressing magic button ...


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Pressing magic button ...


The only LEGAL "magic buttons" are at Directv's end.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Just Waiting for Someone to undo the Parking Brake...


----------



## ThePrisoner

Excuse me if I missed it but when will D12 park? April?


----------



## Ed Campbell

Presumed.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

Sixto said:


> Haven't seen any indication of how the D12 signal strength screens will appear on an H20.


My HR21 was updated this morning and my H20 still has the previous update so they must be rolling them out in phases. Either way it's good to see some progress.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> 103(ca) is all D12 CONUS, no SW1.
> 
> 103(cb) is all D10 CONUS.
> 
> 103(s) is D10, D12, and SW1. SW1 is TP1-TP6, D10/D12 are TP15-TP24.


Wouldn't it be easier to label them 103(D10) and 103(D12)? :sure:


----------



## Sixto

ThePrisoner said:


> Excuse me if I missed it but when will D12 park? April?


See post#1.


----------



## Sixto

Brit_in_WV said:


> My HR21 was updated this morning and my H20 still has the previous update so they must be rolling them out in phases. Either way it's good to see some progress.


The firmware in the H21/23 receivers and HR20/21/22/23 DVRs is similar, with the new 103(ca) signal strength screen for D12.

H21/23 receivers will be getting 0x43A8, and HR20/21/22/23 0x03A8.

Have not seen any indication (yet) of how D12 will be addressed on H20 receivers, which use different firmware.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to label them 103(D10) and 103(D12)? :sure:


I guess it all depends on one's perspective. Most people don't know the satellite names or satellite locations.

103 is the location/slot.
c is CONUS, or s for Spotbeam.
a is a-band (Ka Hi), and b is b-band (Ka Lo or base-band).

All terms that installers understand, and ease to measure.

It also makes it easy for satellites to share a slot, as D10/D12 and SW1/D12 will do, and is also done at other slots.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto, post 1 says "After testing is complete at 76°, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to 103° over the course of 3 weeks, *followed by final testing* and going "live"."

How long will "final testing" take? I thought 76 W was the testing spot.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Sixto, post 1 says "After testing is complete at 76°, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to 103° over the course of 3 weeks, *followed by final testing* and going "live"."
> 
> How long will "final testing" take? I thought 76 W was the testing spot.


D12 will probably test at 103° for 1-4 weeks. Just a guess.

The testing at 76° was more of the satellite technology variety.

The testing at 103° will be more about content, and verifying that every channel performs as expected, from uplink to receiver.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> D12 will probably test at 103° for 1-4 weeks. Just a guess.
> 
> The testing at 76° was more of the satellite technology variety.
> 
> The testing at 103° will be more about content, and verifying that every channel performs as expected, from uplink to receiver.


1-4 weeks? I thought we're supposed to start getting new HD in mid-late April.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> 1-4 weeks? I thought we're supposed to start getting new HD in mid-late April.


Correct.

And we're hopeful that D12 will be at 103° by late-March / early-April.

It takes 3 weeks to get to 103°, and we're assuming that starts this week.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> 1-4 weeks? I thought we're supposed to start getting new HD in mid-late April.


Testing has to be completed first. With a lotta luck, who knows, late April might work. :grin:

Mike


----------



## syphix

Coca Cola Kid said:


> 1-4 weeks? I thought we're supposed to start getting new HD in mid-late April.


Parked late March/first week of April + 1-4 weeks of testing at 103 _*is*_ mid-late April...


----------



## ATARI

Every morning I check to see if this thread is renamed 'Sixto Report: D12 Satellite Info (Now Drifting to 103°)'.

I think I'm addicted.


----------



## Sixto

ATARI said:


> Every morning I check to see if this thread is renamed 'Sixto Report: D12 Satellite Info (Now Drifting to 103°)'.
> 
> I think I'm addicted.


And every morning I'm hopeful. 

The last NORAD location update was from Tuesday 12:45am ET.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

How many miles from 76° to the 103° position? What will be the average drift speed?

It was neat to see 103(ca) on my HR20-700 last night. It will be better when they’re not all zeros.


----------



## smiddy

ATARI said:


> Every morning I check to see if this thread is renamed 'Sixto Report: D12 Satellite Info (Now Drifting to 103°)'.
> 
> I think I'm addicted.


You know, you're not alone!


----------



## LameLefty

Hutchinshouse said:


> How many miles from 76° to the 103° position? What will be the average drift speed?


I did the math a few days ago and posted it - it's in the range of 12,400 miles, roughly. The average drift speed is dependent on when they start the drift and by how much they raise the orbit. That is dependent on how much fuel they want to use to do it.

Bear in mind that they're not ACTUALLY moving the satellite from east to west. Rather, they're raising the orbit to lengthen its orbital period such that it takes slightly more than a day to orbit the earth. It's still circling the planet and several tens of thousands of feet per second; it's just doing so at a higher altitude, taking longer to go around the earth than the earth is taking to complete one rotation (e.g., one day). The net effect is to APPEAR to drift westward in the sky toward its assigned 103ºW slot.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> I did the math a few days ago and posted it - it's in the range of 12,400 miles, roughly. The average drift speed is dependent on when they start the drift and by how much they raise the orbit. That is dependent on how much fuel they want to use to do it.
> 
> Bear in mind that they're not ACTUALLY moving the satellite from east to west. Rather, they're raising the orbit to lengthen its orbital period such that it takes slightly more than a day to orbit the earth. It's still circling the planet and several tens of thousands of feet per second; it's just doing so at a higher altitude, taking longer to go around the earth than the earth is taking to complete one rotation (e.g., one day). The net effect is to APPEAR to drift westward in the sky toward its assigned 103ºW slot.


Cool info, thanks! Agonizingly awaiting the commencement of drift.


----------



## Hoosier205

LameLefty said:


> I did the math a few days ago and posted it - it's in the range of 12,400 miles, roughly. The average drift speed is dependent on when they start the drift and by how much they raise the orbit. That is dependent on how much fuel they want to use to do it.
> 
> Bear in mind that they're not ACTUALLY moving the satellite from east to west. Rather, they're raising the orbit to lengthen its orbital period such that it takes slightly more than a day to orbit the earth. It's still circling the planet and several tens of thousands of feet per second; it's just doing so at a higher altitude, taking longer to go around the earth than the earth is taking to complete one rotation (e.g., one day). The net effect is to APPEAR to drift westward in the sky toward its assigned 103ºW slot.


You're too damn smart for your own good.


----------



## tkrandall

Hoosier205 said:


> You're too damn smart for your own good.


It's only rocket science.


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> Haven't seen any indication of how the D12 signal strength screens will appear on an H20.


The H20-100 screens for 103 (ca) and 103 (cb) look the same as we see on the HR2x boxes that have been updated, except for no Tuner:1 or Tuner: 2. This is running the latest test version on the H20, discussed elsewhere in this forum.


----------



## jefbal99

I'm really surprised that we haven't seen a new TLE today. Sixto, whats the longest gap between a.)Space command recording TLEs and b.)space command releasing TLEs


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> I did the math a few days ago and posted it - it's in the range of 12,400 miles, roughly. The average drift speed is dependent on when they start the drift and by how much they raise the orbit. That is dependent on how much fuel they want to use to do it.
> 
> Bear in mind that they're not ACTUALLY moving the satellite from east to west. Rather, they're raising the orbit to lengthen its orbital period such that it takes slightly more than a day to orbit the earth. It's still circling the planet and several tens of thousands of feet per second; it's just doing so at a higher altitude, taking longer to go around the earth than the earth is taking to complete one rotation (e.g., one day). The net effect is to APPEAR to drift westward in the sky toward its assigned 103ºW slot.


Thanks for sharing that very cool information LL!

That's something I haven't heard before, and you managed to explain it simple enough for me to understand! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> I'm really surprised that we haven't seen a new TLE today. Sixto, whats the longest gap between a.)Space command recording TLEs and b.)space command releasing TLEs


There's something going on with the database. There was a problem a few weeks ago where data was corrupt for a few days, and I actually have a later update in post#1 then is at the usual site. And earlier this week, 3 updates came at once from the previous 3 days.

I've been trying to cross check any updates lately for accuracy.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> There's something going on with the database. There was a problem a few weeks ago where data was corrupt for a few days, and I actually have a later update in post#1 then is at the usual site. And earlier this week, 3 updates came at once from the previous 3 days.
> 
> I've been trying to cross check any updates lately for accuracy.


There is also a new link on the front pages about getting updates and re-distributing them. Is some change occurring in space command policy?

Where else do you get your TLEs from?


----------



## hdgreg

LameLefty said:


> I did the math a few days ago and posted it - it's in the range of 12,400 miles, roughly. The average drift speed is dependent on when they start the drift and by how much they raise the orbit. That is dependent on how much fuel they want to use to do it.
> 
> Bear in mind that they're not ACTUALLY moving the satellite from east to west. Rather, they're raising the orbit to lengthen its orbital period such that it takes slightly more than a day to orbit the earth. It's still circling the planet and several tens of thousands of feet per second; it's just doing so at a higher altitude, taking longer to go around the earth than the earth is taking to complete one rotation (e.g., one day). The net effect is to APPEAR to drift westward in the sky toward its assigned 103ºW slot.


Nice explanation. Thanks. It helps explain my college days also..I got higher and appeared to drift some weekends also...which caused me to seem like I was rotating!:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> There is also a new link on the front pages about getting updates and re-distributing them. Is some change occurring in space command policy?
> 
> Where else do you get your TLEs from?


We(*) all get them from USSPACECOM. However, accessing their public web portal requires a user account. Getting that account requires an affirmation that data not be redistributed without permission, hence the note in the first post (at least, that is what I think is Sixto's reason for the note).

(*) Me, Sixto, plus a few others I'm sure.


----------



## Sixto

Also available at: http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/geo.txt

With no restrictions that I'm aware of.

Celestrak actually now has a later D12 TLE then Space Track.


----------



## Sixto

Just got an update. Nothing new. Updating ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Just got an update. Nothing new. Updating ...


Except your post count now...!!! 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2388022#post2388022


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-10-2010 11:01:31
Orbit # at Epoch	79
Inclination		0.054
RA of A. Node		289.828
Eccentricity		0.0002160
Argument of Perigee	106.434
Revs per day		1.00269818
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km
Element number / age	105 / 1 day(s)

Lon			76.0298° W
Lat			0.0074° S
Alt (km)		35 793.470

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
105 03-10 11:01:31 35,778 x 35,796     18 +29.27H 71.44D  76.03°W  0.00°S  0.05°
103 03-09 05:45:03 35,778 x 35,796     18 + 9.28H 70.22D  76.00°W  0.04°S  0.05°
102 03-08 20:28:22 35,778 x 35,796     18 +41.89H 69.84D  76.00°W  0.03°N  0.06°
101 03-07 02:35:13 35,779 x 35,795     16 +14.86H 68.09D  75.97°W  0.02°S  0.06°
100 03-06 11:43:22 35,778 x 35,795     17 +30.04H 67.47D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.06°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Also available at: http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/geo.txt
> 
> With no restrictions that I'm aware of.


Yeah, Dr. Kelso has a blanket reproduction agreement with USSPACECOM. However, his site often lags Space Command's own (tho' apparently not always), and I _suspect_ that certain satellites are listed on the Space Command site that are not listed on Celestrak.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, Dr. Kelso has a blanket reproduction agreement with USSPACECOM. However, his site often lags Space Command's own (tho' apparently not always), and I _suspect_ that certain satellites are listed on the Space Command site that are not listed on Celestrak.


Celestrak had 103 first (last night).

And 105 just moments ago.


----------



## Sixto

Looks like they're using every bit of the testing time. 

Data still about a day old (6am ET yesterday).


----------



## syphix

When's this testing time end?


----------



## P Smith

When the D12 begin drifting.


----------



## wmb

P Smith said:


> When the D12 begin drifting.


No, thats how we know its over. It ends when they are through.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> When's this testing time end?


They were licensed for 30 days from the start. The 2/11 letter said testing was anticipated to begin 2/13. 30 days would be 3/15.

We were thinking that testing may end sooner then 3/15 because the BSS testing was expected to end 3/5, but it appears that there's maybe more to get done, or they're waiting for positioning before upping the orbit and starting the drift.


----------



## P Smith

wmb said:


> No, thats how we know its over. It ends when they are through.


You forgot how late we got TLEs for previous sats...


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> You forgot how late we got TLEs for previous sats...


Yep, we're running about 36-48 hours behind at the moment.

And P., we need to find the D12 pid.


----------



## wmb

P Smith said:


> You forgot how late we got TLEs for previous sats...


Exactly... it can show up at 103 any time (OK, there is movement time). One past sat, D11, I think, had no TLEs for seemed like a couple of weeks and all of a sudden showed up at its destination. D12 can be in route and we don't know it yet because the TLEs may not hav been released.

Anyhow, hopefully D12 is home and operational by tax day. We should have new channels by Memorial Day. Hopefully, this summer we will know about new satellites from BSS grants.

Given that they announced problems with D10 pretty quickly after discovery, I am taking no news to be good news on the testing. Soon enough, D12 will move.

In the mean time, I think I'll have a beer.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> ...
> And P., we need to find the D12 pid.


I think it will comes up after/during testing RF/station-keeping equipment at final point.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> I think it will comes up after/during testing RF/station-keeping equipment at final point.


Hope so. Maybe 825. Thought it might appear when 103(ca) appeared, but guess it's not needed until D12 is at 103°. Thx.


----------



## n2deep2bn

From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


----------



## LameLefty

n2deep2bn said:


> From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


That's absurdly unlikely.


----------



## Sixto

n2deep2bn said:


> From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


Guess you're not speaking to right people.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

n2deep2bn said:


> From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


nice try :lol:


----------



## n2deep2bn

I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## joed32

n2deep2bn said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.


That's good because you're the only one.


----------



## dwrats_56

n2deep2bn said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.


why would they wait that long? 4 to 5 months after it is in its final location does not make sense.


----------



## Sixto

Let's move all discussion of "channels" to the HD anticipation thread.

Please.


----------



## Hoosier205

n2deep2bn said:


> From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


What you've been told is entirely wrong.


----------



## LameLefty

Let me guess: he's a CSR posting the latest scripted answer. :nono:


----------



## Sixto

All discussion of "channels" to the HD anticipation thread ...


----------



## Sixto

BTW, update 106 this morning was the same. Post#1.

6am ET yesterday.


----------



## Lord Vader

n2deep2bn said:


> I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.


Charlie, is that you? You're in the wrong forum section again.


----------



## curt8403

Lord Vader said:


> Charlie, is that you? You're in the wrong forum section again.


 I'm confused, Charlie? Charlie Ergen?


----------



## Lord Vader




----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> BTW, update 106 this morning was the same. Post#1.
> 
> 6am ET yesterday.


Start driftin' already! :grin:

Thanks for keeping us up to date. 

Mike


----------



## Hoosier205

Either this thing starts moving tomorrow or I say we nominate a crew to build a rocket and send Sixto's rear end up there to do it himself. Just give it a little nudge in the right direction.


----------



## curt8403

Hoosier205 said:


> Either this thing starts moving tomorrow or I say we nominate a crew to build a rocket and send Sixto's rear end up there to do it himself. Just give it a little nudge in the right direction.


 I would think that LameLefty would be a bit more qualified. Either would be good though


----------



## Hoosier205

curt8403 said:


> I would think that LameLefty would be a bit more qualified. Either would be good though


That's true.

They could have used the Top Gear shuttle, but it didn't land in a graceful manner.










Please watch this video if you haven't already seen it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

And more to the topic at hand, what is the absolute fastest we can reasonably expect it to take to drift. I would guess there is a specified orbital range for that. 

Mike


----------



## MycroftHolmes

Hoosier205 said:


> ...but it didn't land in a graceful manner.


<sarcasm>
Thanks for ruining the ending for me. 
</sarcasm>


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> And more to the topic at hand, what is the absolute fastest we can reasonably expect it to take to drift. I would guess there is a specified orbital range for that.
> 
> Mike


The FCC filing said "DIRECTV 12 will then be drifted to it's assigned location over the course of approximately 20 days".

Anything sooner or later depends on whether the schedule changes, and desires for fuel consumption and orbital mechanics.


----------



## Fog627

If a satellite is drifting and no one reports it....is it still drifting?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm figuring that on or before Monday, we'll hear about an update that D12 is starting to drift off towards the 103 sandox area. 

With the likelyhood that we are inside of 6 weeks from having D12 transmit something....the suspense is growing each day. :eek2:


----------



## Sixto

Fog627 said:


> If a satellite is drifting and no one reports it....is it still drifting?


Yes, and it would be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## Lord Vader

MicroBeta said:


> And more to the topic at hand, what is the absolute fastest we can reasonably expect it to take to drift. I would guess there is a specified orbital range for that.
> 
> Mike


That depends on the rate of deterioration of the dilithium crystals.


----------



## doctor j

107 up doesn't look like any change. Dated last evening EST.



Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10072.16677352 -.00000254  00000-0  99999-4 0  1074
2 36131 000.0503 312.8277 0002017 100.8419 101.0085 01.00270447   827

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> 107 up doesn't look like any change. Dated last evening EST.


yep, certainly thorough testing.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> yep, certainly thorough testing.


Nothing wrong with that. 

The Monday TLE might be interesting...


----------



## Skyboss

n2deep2bn said:


> From what I've been told there won't be any new channels until after September 1st.


Has the new SAT come crashing back to earth?


----------



## litzdog911

Skyboss said:


> Has the new SAT come crashing back to earth?


No. :nono2:


----------



## Sixto

Alive and well and still at 76° at 11:03am ET this morning.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Alive and well and still at 76° at 11:03am ET this morning.


Thanks for the update....hopefully there's movement in tomorrow's report.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for the update....hopefully there's movement in tomorrow's report.


Same at 4:37am ET today. Been two updates since yesterday.


----------



## steveken

Hoosier205 said:


> That's true.
> 
> They could have used the Top Gear shuttle, but it didn't land in a graceful manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please watch this video if you haven't already seen it.


That was BRILLIANT!!!! Well, up until it exploded in a huge fireball!! WOW!! Thanks for sharing that! That was great!!!


----------



## steveken

Groundhog45 said:


> The H20-100 screens for 103 (ca) and 103 (cb) look the same as we see on the HR2x boxes that have been updated, except for no Tuner:1 or Tuner: 2. This is running the latest test version on the H20, discussed elsewhere in this forum.


Hmm, I don't see anything for my H20-100 screens yet, so I am guessing they are still rolling out the updates. I check it every couple of days just to see, but I am not really expecting much. As long as it happens is all that matters.


----------



## dpeters11

steveken said:


> Hmm, I don't see anything for my H20-100 screens yet, so I am guessing they are still rolling out the updates. I check it every couple of days just to see, but I am not really expecting much. As long as it happens is all that matters.


You could always turn off your light ring by pressing the left and right ring buttons until it turns off. The setting doesn't survive a reboot, so the first time you turn it on and the ring comes on, you know it at least rebooted.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hoosier205 said:


> That's true.
> 
> They could have used the Top Gear shuttle, but it didn't land in a graceful manner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please watch this video if you haven't already seen it.


Awesome video. Looks like the makeshift shuttle forgot to "drift".

Come on D12, drift baby!


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Same at 4:37am ET today. Been two updates since yesterday.


I'm baffled that this this is still at 76, as SatelliteRacer said things were ahead of schedule, I figured that this thing would have started drifting and be to 103 by the end of the month. Very unlikely now


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

jefbal99 said:


> I'm baffled that this this is still at 76, as SatelliteRacer said things were ahead of schedule, I figured that this thing would have started drifting and be to 103 by the end of the month. Very unlikely now


Eh, things happen, but they have their testing until Monday, so we should still be on schedule for a parking in the first week of April.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> I'm baffled that this this is still at 76, as SatelliteRacer said things were ahead of schedule, I figured that this thing would have started drifting and be to 103 by the end of the month. Very unlikely now


The original schedule (per the FCC filing) was possibly May.


----------



## slimoli

C'mon baby, MOVE!


----------



## robq391

Patience is a virtue...NOW HURRY UP & WAIT!!! :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

robq391 said:


> Patience is a virtue...NOW HURRY UP & WAIT!!! :lol:


I work in state gov't, everything is hurry up and wait, hurry up and wait


----------



## seern

jefbal99 said:


> I work in state gov't, everything is hurry up and wait, hurry up and wait


Forget state government, life is hurry up and wait. :grin:


----------



## hyde76

I'm still holding out that it's drifting but the TLE's being released are false. One day, just like the last few satellites, it'll just show up at 103.


----------



## texasmoose

Drift baby drift!! C'mon D12 the anticipation is killing us over here! Must be patient! Patience is a virtue that I lack from time to time. Like a kid on XMAS eve w8ing for ST. Nick to deliver the goods. Staying awake all night with anticipation of what was to come.


----------



## Sixto

hyde76 said:


> I'm still holding out that it's drifting but the TLE's being released are false. One day, just like the last few satellites, it'll just show up at 103.


That would be wonderful if true, but not likely.

With D10 and D11, there may have been periods where there was a TLE delay, and then a parking, but never a case where the TLE's were inaccurate.

The last D12 TLE was early this morning, and the drift had not begun.


----------



## seern

If I am understanding what I am reading about this, when it comes time to drift the orbit will become higher. If this is right, then we should see this even if the drift has not gotten going well yet.


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Skyboss said:


> Has the new SAT come crashing back to earth?


oops why am I in the dish forum?


----------



## Sixto

seern said:


> If I am understanding what I am reading about this, when it comes time to drift the orbit will become higher. If this is right, then we should see this even if the drift has not gotten going well yet.


Correct. We've been looking for any change. Nothing yet.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> Correct. We've been looking for any change. Nothing yet.


Any reason to start being worried ?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> Any reason to start being worried ?


Not likely.

They had alot of testing to do, and we'll likely see some change very soon.

All things still seem to point to a timeline as Sixto originally forecast.


----------



## ATARI

It's Monday, I'm hoping this is the week of drift!!


----------



## syphix

I'm betting it starts moving today.


----------



## Sixto

Same as of 2am ET today.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Same as of 2am ET today.


Looks like space-track.org is back on track


----------



## slimoli

Has the license to test at 76 alredy expired ?


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Has the license to test at 76 alredy expired ?


Seemed to be for 30 days from arrival/test, which appeared to be 2/13-3/15. Unless something changed, or maybe just prep'ing for start of the move.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Same as of 2am ET today.


D12 is a West-Coaster... that was yesterday to it! 

Still hopeful for the start of the move to be today as well... 

~Alan


----------



## P Smith

Wait for 11:59pm PDT news.


----------



## PCampbell

:lol:It parked there to long and the space police put a boot on it.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> BTW, update 106 this morning was the same. Post#1.
> 
> 6am ET yesterday.


I understand that there was some speculation about why the move TLE's did not get published during the D11's move. I remember the discussion, not the prevailing wisdom. Is there any possibility D* could make that happen? If so, is it possible that our indication of a move could be the lack of data? It hasn't happened that we stopped getting the data yet, I know, I am just wondering if it is a possibility.


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> I understand that there was some speculation about why the move TLE's did not get published during the D11's move. I remember the discussion, not the prevailing wisdom. Is there any possibility D* could make that happen? If so, is it possible that our indication of a move could be the lack of data? It hasn't happened that we stopped getting the data yet, I know, I am just wondering if it is a possibility.


Been plenty of recent data. Few glitches here and there, but we have current data.

Also, D10 and D11 can sometimes go several days without an update.

Personally, I don't think there's any relationship to concealing any data. It may just be that certain changes cause data to be less accessible, but that's just a guess.


----------



## mike_augie

if I remember correctly this is what happened with d-11 also there was a time frame of no updates then when it did it was there ... am i remembering right ?


----------



## slimoli

I'm confused. There is no lack of updates, as far as I understand, it's just that the bird remains at 76 and is not moving yet. Is it a fair accessment ?


----------



## mike_augie

slimoli said:


> I'm confused. There is no lack of updates, as far as I understand, it's just that the bird remains at 76 and is not moving yet. Is it a fair accessment ?


no i am sure u might be correct but we didnt think d-11 was moving wither and then bam it was there showing signals ...


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> I'm confused. There is no lack of updates, as far as I understand, it's just that the bird remains at 76 and is not moving yet. Is it a fair accessment ?


Correct.

We have plenty of updates. D12 hadn't started the move as of early today.

Others are referring to previous satellites where we had a few days of no updates and then it was parked.

That is not the case here.

And also it may take 2-3 weeks to get to 103.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Correct.
> 
> We have plenty of updates. D12 hadn't started the move as of early today.
> 
> Others are referring to previous satellites where we had a few days of no updates and then it was parked.
> 
> That is not the case here.
> 
> And also it may take 2-3 weeks to get to 103.


SWEET! Versus is back, D12 will be moving to 103, and more HD coming, what more could we ask for?


----------



## curt8403

TheRatPatrol said:


> SWEET! Versus is back, D12 will be moving to 103, and more HD coming, what more could we ask for?


a channel for the airing of grievances?


----------



## ejjames

curt8403 said:


> a channel for the airing of grievances?


...and "feats of strength"!


----------



## paulh

..I was just thinking, Festivus-HD


----------



## Sixto

Possible indication of the schedule: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2392817#post2392817


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Possible indication of the schedule: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2392817#post2392817


There's a typo on that page. It says MoreMax West HD is moving from 513 to 518. We don't have MoreMax *West* or MoreMax East *in HD*. Hopefully we're getting it though along with the rest of the Max's in HD.


----------



## hyde76

P Smith said:


> Wait for 11:59pm PDT news.


It's 12:17 am PDT. No news yet.


----------



## ejjames

hyde76 said:


> It's 12:17 am PDT. No news yet.


All it takes is a little push.


----------



## levibluewa

what did I miss?


----------



## LameLefty

levibluewa said:


> what did I miss?


Nothing.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Nothing.


Then again...today's a new day.


----------



## ATARI

At 11:00 CDT today, I want everyone to think real hard about "D12 Drifting".

Maybe our combined mental energies can get this bird moving.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

levibluewa said:


> what did I miss?





LameLefty said:


> Nothing.


:bang

Hopefully today is the day!


----------



## jefbal99

Hutchinshouse said:


> :bang
> 
> Hopefully today is the day!


Space-track.org and CelesTrak.com both have 112 as the latest TLE, nothing new yet...


----------



## jefbal99

This may be a dumb question but I guess I need to ask it...

Does DirecTV need separate STA's to drift DirecTV12 vs. RB-2A? I know they are the same physical satellite, however, there have been many filings for just one or the other, based on the communications band. The only STA for drift is D12, might they be waiting for another one?


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> This may be a dumb question but I guess I need to ask it...
> 
> Does DirecTV need separate STA's to drift DirecTV12 vs. RB-2A? I know they are the same physical satellite, however, there have been many filings for just one or the other, based on the communications band. The only STA for drift is D12, might they be waiting for another one?


There's only one ... and there's zero open DirecTV FCC filing's for space stations (satellites). Not a single pending filing for any DirecTV space station (satellite) for anything (past or future).

Edit: to clarify that a space station is a satellite.


----------



## mcnallc1

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> 
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> 
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


Sorry if this has been asked already but have D10 or SW-1 been moved to their new locations yet? Is this something they would do while D12 is drifting or before it starts?


----------



## jefbal99

mcnallc1 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked already but have D10 or SW-1 been moved to their new locations yet? Is this something they would do while D12 is drifting or before it starts?


Based off their latest TLEs:

D10 - 102.8130° W

SW1 - 102.9244° W

So it looks like those slight moves already occurred.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> There's only one ... and there's zero open DirecTV FCC filing's for space stations (satellites). Not a single pending filing for any DirecTV space station (satellite) for anything (past or future).
> 
> Edit: to clarify that a space station is a satellite.


Yeah, I forgot that you had posted that previously. Just trying to think outside the box why this bird is still hanging out at its test spot...

If its going to take 20 days to drift and it started today, that puts a parking date on 4/5, the 30 day STA for drift will expire on 4/7. That's cutting closer than I'd like to be comfortable with. Maybe they have a plan to raise the orbit higher than normal to make it drift faster?


----------



## ejjames

So about how many miles is the drift?


----------



## LameLefty

ejjames said:


> So about how many miles is the drift?


Check up-thread. As I've posted (three times now  ) it's in the range of 12,400+ miles.


----------



## sdk009

LameLefty said:


> Check up-thread. As I've posted (three times now  ) it's in the range of 12,400+ miles.


So if my math is correct, it will drift an earth speed rate of 24.5 mph, correct?


----------



## ricochet

sdk009 said:


> So if my math is correct, it will drift an earth speed rate of 24.5 mph, correct?


Probably in the left lane with its turn signal on.


----------



## njblackberry

In South Florida.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

All right already! Let's get this baby movin'.


----------



## LameLefty

sdk009 said:


> So if my math is correct, it will drift an earth speed rate of 24.5 mph, correct?


That depends very much on how much the orbit is raised during the drift. That, ultimately, resolves into how much fuel they wish to use.


----------



## Hdhead

I just walked outside and swear I heard an engine start to fire above me to the southeast. :grin: Burn baby burn :engel02:


----------



## uncrules

Maybe it's just me, but it's starting to get worrisome to me that it hasn't started moving yet.


----------



## Sixto

Last update was 2am ET yesterday (Monday).


----------



## hyde76

It's not worrisome, it's just like watching paint dry. It'll move when it's ready.


----------



## Jeremy W

uncrules said:


> Maybe it's just me, but it's starting to get worrisome to me that it hasn't started moving yet.


There's nothing to worry about. If there was some problem with the satellite, DirecTV would have to publicly disclose it. They haven't, so there isn't.


----------



## loudo

Good thing it isn't made by Toyota or we would really have something to worry about.


----------



## rrrick8

loudo said:


> Good thing it isn't made by Toyota or we would really have something to worry about.


If it was made by Toyota, it would be shifting into 3rd gear (right about now) as it passes Jupiter.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

ATARI said:


> At 11:00 CDT today, I want everyone to think real hard about "D12 Drifting".
> 
> Maybe our combined mental energies can get this bird moving.


So I guess this didn't work?


----------



## Sixto

Patience.


----------



## dpeters11

I'm kind of wondering, the ones that actually control the satellites, is it in a place that looks like Mission Control from NASA, or a guy at a keyboard with a Mountain Dew and a bag of Fritos, pining for the receptionist at the front desk?


----------



## smiddy

If I recall didn't a similar thing happen last time? It was three days and on its merry way before we heard anything...of course I could be wrong, I get things confused the older I get.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> If I recall didn't a similar thing happen last time? It was three days and on its merry way before we heard anything...of course I could be wrong, I get things confused the older I get.


Then we should wait for couple days from now.


----------



## mobandit

dpeters11 said:


> I'm kind of wondering, the ones that actually control the satellites, is it in a place that looks like Mission Control from NASA, or a guy at a keyboard with a Mountain Dew and a bag of Fritos, pining for the receptionist at the front desk?


Closer to the latter, last time I saw a satellite control station...


----------



## Jeremy W

dpeters11 said:


> I'm kind of wondering, the ones that actually control the satellites, is it in a place that looks like Mission Control from NASA, or a guy at a keyboard with a Mountain Dew and a bag of Fritos, pining for the receptionist at the front desk?


Here's the company that controls DirecTV's satellites: http://www.telesat.ca/en/Satellite_Operating_Services

Although right now, I believe Boeing is still controlling D12.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Here's the company that controls DirecTV's satellites: http://www.telesat.ca/en/Satellite_Operating_Services


Thanks Jeremy.

You learn something every day.


----------



## skylab

Satellite, headlines read 
Someone's secrets you've seen 
Eyes and ears have been 
Satellite dish in my yard 
Tell me more, tell me more 
Who's the king of your satellite castle?

-Dave Matthews Band


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Thanks Jeremy.
> 
> You learn something every day.


We have our own - Blue Cube.


----------



## Newshawk

Sixto said:


> Patience.


Grasshopper


----------



## Newshawk

Jeremy W said:


> Here's the company that controls DirecTV's satellites: http://www.telesat.ca/en/Satellite_Operating_Services.


Why do I suddenly have a mental picture of three or four guys with brooms and scrubbrushes standing in front of D12?  :sure:


----------



## I WANT MORE

When you see the next update it will be half way there. Trust me I know.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-17-2010 03:40:05
Orbit # at Epoch	86
Inclination		0.050
RA of A. Node		319.422
Eccentricity		0.0001778
Argument of Perigee	92.042
Revs per day		1.00271238
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 794 km
Element number / age	113 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0038° W
Lat			0.0191° S
Alt (km)		35 787.860

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
113 03-17 03:40:05 35,779 x 35,794     15 +45.63H 78.14D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
112 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 0.00H 76.24D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
111 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,795     16 +21.40H 76.24D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°
110 03-14 08:37:57 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 6.67H 75.34D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°
109 03-14 01:57:35 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 9.90H 75.07D  76.00°W  0.00°N  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## syphix

I WANT MORE said:


> When you see the next update it will be half way there. Trust me I know.


*game show buzzer*


----------



## I WANT MORE

The next "real" update.


----------



## syphix

I WANT MORE said:


> The next "real" update.


The updates that Sixto provides aren't "real"??


----------



## I WANT MORE

His are absolutely real. He can only post the info that is available to him. That does not mean that the info available to him is "real/accurate". Sorry, Just having a little fun. Should have used :-} so that everyone would get it.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

ATARI said:


> At 11:00 CDT today, I want everyone to think real hard about "D12 Drifting".
> 
> Maybe our combined mental energies can get this bird moving.


What if today instead of thinking, we all aim toward the sky and blow really hard all at once. Maybe this would get it moving. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Possibly there's some prep/shutdown required prior to any orbit change and drift.


----------



## ATARI

TheRatPatrol said:


> What if today instead of thinking, we all aim toward the sky and blow really hard all at once. Maybe this would get it moving. :lol:


OK, let's do it !!


----------



## Rikinky

Hey guys I noticed testing from 103 on channels in the 9500's does this mean the satellite is already positioned?


----------



## jefbal99

Rikinky said:


> Hey guys I noticed testing from 103 on channels in the 9500's does this mean the satellite is already positioned?


Nope


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> Hey guys I noticed testing from 103 on channels in the 9500's does this mean the satellite is already positioned?


HD Extra pack channels will be in the 560's starting April 14 so the test channels will be moved. D12 has nothing to do with it.

Some premium channels are moving to make room for more HD channels.


----------



## doctor j

Although I find it amazing that an important governmental data base might be manipulated, I would not be surprised if the conspiracy theory is in fact correct.
One day soon, D-12 will just BE at 103. Interesting to see if TLE's change, updated or just left inaccurate.

Doctor j


----------



## oldfantom

doctor j said:


> Although I find it amazing that an important governmental data base might be manipulated, I would not be surprised if the conspiracy theory is in fact correct.
> One day soon, D-12 will just BE at 103. Interesting to see if TLE's change, updated or just left inaccurate.
> 
> Doctor j


To what end? What advantage would a secret move provide? E* can read the filings, they know the window that is out there for the move.

I have asked about the unpublished move in the past, a page or two back in fact, but when I take the time to think about it, I can see no reason why they would. Unless they are worried the Spectrum Five has hired a hunter killer satellite to ambush D12 during the move and make it look like a run of the mill mugging.


----------



## netraa

just thinking out loud here....

Is it possible that Boeing considered the bird 'delivered' when it hit the testing location, and now *D has command and control functions at their designated provider, Telesat?

With Boeing having contacts in the area, and the location of D12 being such a major issue, the movements being much more abrupt and large, and the CnC systems untested, would they have been requesting 'actual location' updates causing the string of real measurement updates that we saw?

Now, that the internal CnC systems are tested, Boeing isn't driving any more, and the movements are much smaller what are the odds that the people responsible for making the measurements aren't really. 

The guys that know say that actually 'getting a fix' on the actual location isn't all that easy, so if it's not on a real walkabout, or the responsible party isn't asking for a where's my bird ticket.... do they actually get a real solid fix on a bird that's still under control, and operating 'nominally'?

Think of it like a house under construction... when the outside construction is going on, you notice it... walls, brick, roof.... but once the construction moves inside, unless you go inside the house, 'nothing' looks to have changed much until suddenly someone has moving vans in front of it.


----------



## doctor j

Just everyday PARANOIA

Doctor j


----------



## I WANT MORE

doctor j said:


> Although I find it amazing that an important governmental data base might be manipulated, I would not be surprised if the conspiracy theory is in fact correct.
> One day soon, D-12 will just BE at 103. Interesting to see if TLE's change, updated or just left *inaccurate*.
> 
> Doctor j


Whoa, Careful there..........:nono:


----------



## P Smith

Revealing TLEs by NORAD is a courtesy, not an obligation.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Revealing TLEs by NORAD is a courtesy, not an obligation.


Indeed. However, satellite operators (not just Directv) very much have a need-to-know for this data to minimize risk of in-orbit collisions and coordinate TT&C operations.

To the extent we keep getting TLE's, they are almost certainly accurate. When they stop for a few days or more, then resume, I WANT MORE's comments may be accurate.


----------



## michaelruggeri

I am hoping SatelliteRacer can give us some guidance on the move to 103*. Are you out there satracer?

Mike


----------



## P Smith

He is on business trip - tightening bolts at D12 propulsion system.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

michaelruggeri said:


> I am hoping SatelliteRacer can give us some guidance on the move to 103*. Are you out there satracer?
> 
> Mike


I'm sure Sixto will tell us the second it happens. Patience is a virtue.


----------



## texasmoose

_*I'm chomping at the bit
And my palms are getting wet
Sweating Bullets*_~Dave Mustaine, Megadeth~


----------



## smiddy

Someone with a high powered telescope go take a look at it to see if it is moving or not, please!


----------



## coota

Why am I getting readings for 103cb? Nothing on ca though.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

smiddy said:


> Someone with a high powered telescope go take a look at it to see if it is moving or not, please!


Simmadowna. It'll move when its good and ready.


----------



## LameLefty

coota said:


> Why am I getting readings for 103cb? Nothing on ca though.


103(cb) are CONUS transponders from Directv 10, that's why.


----------



## susanandmark

Forgive me if this has already been specified in the previous 144 pages of this thread but after 15 minutes of reading I don't see a clear answer so here goes the stupid question ... Taking into account positioning, testing and whatever else needs to happen when should we, the consumer, actually start to see new channels from this new satellite?

We've been DirecTV customers since 1998 and, for the past year or so, not very happy about the company's direction/service. (I'm not trying to start a whole thing, just saying ...) Anyway, on the flip side, we have LOTS of money invested in DirecTV equipment and a house that has been extensively remodeled/rewired specifically for DirecTV service. Yes, it can be converted to Dish or cable, but it's a hassle, as is a new system, replacing everything, etc. Still, we're getting to the ends of our ropes and might make the jump soon despite the headaches ... But I wanted to see what happened with this much-talked-about (at least here) new sat first. How long should I wait?


----------



## mobandit

susanandmark said:


> Forgive me if this has already been specified in the previous 144 pages of this thread but after 15 minutes of reading I don't see a clear answer so here goes the stupid question ... Taking into account positioning, testing and whatever else needs to happen when should we, the consumer, actually start to see new channels from this new satellite?
> 
> We've been DirecTV customers since 1998 and, for the past year or so, not very happy about the company's direction/service. (I'm not trying to start a whole thing, just saying ...) Anyway, on the flip side, we have LOTS of money invested in DirecTV equipment and a house that has been extensively remodeled/rewired specifically for DirecTV service. Yes, it can be converted to Dish or cable, but it's a hassle, as is a new system, replacing everything, etc. Still, we're getting to the ends of our ropes and might make the jump soon despite the headaches ... But I wanted to see what happened with this much-talked-about (at least here) new sat first. How long should I wait?


Most likely to start seeing new channels within the next 30-45 days...roughly.


----------



## mobandit

netraa said:


> just thinking out loud here....
> 
> Is it possible that Boeing considered the bird 'delivered' when it hit the testing location, and now *D has command and control functions at their designated provider, Telesat?
> 
> With Boeing having contacts in the area, and the location of D12 being such a major issue, the movements being much more abrupt and large, and the CnC systems untested, would they have been requesting 'actual location' updates causing the string of real measurement updates that we saw?
> 
> Now, that the internal CnC systems are tested, Boeing isn't driving any more, and the movements are much smaller what are the odds that the people responsible for making the measurements aren't really.
> 
> The guys that know say that actually 'getting a fix' on the actual location isn't all that easy, so if it's not on a real walkabout, or the responsible party isn't asking for a where's my bird ticket.... do they actually get a real solid fix on a bird that's still under control, and operating 'nominally'?
> 
> Think of it like a house under construction... when the outside construction is going on, you notice it... walls, brick, roof.... but once the construction moves inside, unless you go inside the house, 'nothing' looks to have changed much until suddenly someone has moving vans in front of it.


When I was at Naval Space Command, new TLE's were only generated when an object wasn't in its expected orbital position. As long as it passed through the 'fence' at it's expected time/location...we didn't do anything with a new TLE.


----------



## slimoli

mobandit said:


> Most likely to start seeing new channels within the next 30-45 days...roughly.


If this baby moves...soon.


----------



## oldfantom

susanandmark said:


> Forgive me if this has already been specified in the previous 144 pages of this thread but after 15 minutes of reading I don't see a clear answer so here goes the stupid question ... Taking into account positioning, testing and whatever else needs to happen when should we, the consumer, actually start to see new channels from this new satellite?


To expand on the 30-45 day comment. The satellite is currently at a testing location. We can't get any channels until it moves. So when this thread renames to drifting we will be in route to a major milestone. Once it parks, there will be some work to get the channels routed from the ground to the satellite to our boxes. That will be the really fun time, because we will actually see stuff. There will be signals in Sixto's other thread.

At this point the estimates are based upon FCC filings any past satellites. They can go faster at the cost of the back end of the satellite's life span. They require fuel to move it now, positioning during use and move to the graveyard at the end. So slow and steady is the best course at this time.

I would also not expect one major festivus, as it has come to be called, even with 10, there were multiple stages of additions. So if the first group does not have what you want, keep watching.


----------



## dpeters11

susanandmark said:


> Forgive me if this has already been specified in the previous 144 pages of this thread but after 15 minutes of reading I don't see a clear answer so here goes the stupid question ... Taking into account positioning, testing and whatever else needs to happen when should we, the consumer, actually start to see new channels from this new satellite?
> 
> We've been DirecTV customers since 1998 and, for the past year or so, not very happy about the company's direction/service. (I'm not trying to start a whole thing, just saying ...) Anyway, on the flip side, we have LOTS of money invested in DirecTV equipment and a house that has been extensively remodeled/rewired specifically for DirecTV service. Yes, it can be converted to Dish or cable, but it's a hassle, as is a new system, replacing everything, etc. Still, we're getting to the ends of our ropes and might make the jump soon despite the headaches ... But I wanted to see what happened with this much-talked-about (at least here) new sat first. How long should I wait?


As the others said, by end of April we should start seeing things. It may not be the end of it (most likely not) but at least one or two rounds done. When it does happen it'll be very obvious. The channels showing up will be front page news on here. Any threads started by SatelliteRacer are very interesting, either in what's coming, or lately what's moving to make room. But you'll see it on the front page of dbstalk in an announcement. Also, DirecTV historically has done a lot of the big additions on Wednesdays.


----------



## Sixto

susanandmark said:


> Forgive me if this has already been specified in the previous 144 pages of this thread but after 15 minutes of reading I don't see a clear answer so here goes the stupid question ... Taking into account positioning, testing and whatever else needs to happen when should we, the consumer, actually start to see new channels from this new satellite?


Post #1 always has the latest.

By Cinco be Mayo, or a Wednesday or two before. 

This sync's with the channel changes.


----------



## jilardi2

smiddy said:


> Someone with a high powered telescope go take a look at it to see if it is moving or not, please!


maybe bubbles from trailer park boys could see with those glasses.:lol:


----------



## Indiana627

Could the high amounts of solar flares occurring at this time of year be a reason for D* to keep D12 at 76° for a little while longer? They probably wouldn't want to lose communication with it even for a few minutes while it was being moved. Just a thought, probably way off base, but still thought I'd ask.


----------



## litzdog911

Indiana627 said:


> Could the high amounts of solar flares occurring at this time of year be a reason for D* to keep D12 at 76° for a little while longer? They probably wouldn't want to lose communication with it even for a few minutes while it was being moved. Just a thought, probably way off base, but still thought I'd ask.


Highly unlikely.


----------



## curt8403

litzdog911 said:


> Highly unlikely.


 ya, I thought the magnetosphere deflected most of the solar wind even where the satellites are located


----------



## P Smith

mobandit said:


> When I was at Naval Space Command, new TLE's were only generated when an object wasn't in its expected orbital position. As long as it passed through the 'fence' at it's expected time/location...we didn't do anything with a new TLE.


According to regularity how Sixto bringing TLEs here, NORAD has different policy. What is actually beneficial for us .


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> ya, I thought the magnetosphere deflected most of the solar wind even where the satellites are located


That's true for *normal *solar activity, we are experience anomaly in that processes, so no way to discard the point by simple posting our HO.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> That's true for *normal *solar activity, we are experience anomaly in that processes, so no way to discard the point by simple posting our HO.


Yeah, but the anomaly is an extended minimum, not over-activity.

http://www.spaceweather.com/


----------



## Indiana627

I was just curious since this current high level of solar activity apparently can knock out satellite signals for a short period of time, thus disrupting TV reception. Our local cable company has been experiencing this I guess since there was a story in today's paper. I have not seen any issues with my D* or OTA reception.


----------



## Rob

I looked up just now and I can see it moving. Shade your eyes from the sun and you can see it too.


----------



## DodgerKing

Now it is looking more likely that we will be getting new HD channels at least a month later than we previously though?


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Now it is looking more likely that we will be getting new HD channels at least a month later than we previously though?


Nope, same schedule. Always thought late-April / early May. Still thinking April.


----------



## Fog627

Is there any way to upload some fiber or a laxative?? That might help the movement.:lol:


----------



## RAD

DodgerKing said:


> Now it is looking more likely that we will be getting new HD channels at least a month later than we previously though?


Who knows, maybe it will just show up at 103 and surprise everyone:lol:


----------



## Sixto

The only way that anything will happen magically is if we have a drought of updates for a long time.

Norad isn't playing with us.  (The data is accurate).

While this might all seem odd to some, it's probably right on schedule. (and if not then we should know soon)


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> (and if not then we should know soon)


How soon or ,in other words, when should we start being concerned ?


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> How soon or ,in other words, when should we start being concerned ?


DirecTV's priority is to prepare D12 for productive use, while also making the best use of the BSS payload. As we saw with D11, several weeks were devoted to testing future technologies prior to D11 going "live". Might be the same in this case.

Since we've seen zero indication of any STA extension, I'd guess all is fine.

Will continue to monitor ...


----------



## Sixto

Was just re-reading the grant for the drift. 

It's fairly clear that DirecTV "may not operate the communications payload" during the drift. 

Been wondering for a while whether they need to power down significant parts of D12 prior to the drift. The drift might require some significant prep before the move starts. 

And the drift must be complete by the end of first week in April, or file for an extension.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Been wondering for a while whether they need to power down significant parts of D12 prior to the drift. The drift might require some significant prep before the move starts.


I highly doubt that powering down the communications payload for the move is something significant that takes weeks to accomplish.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Sixto - thanks again for everything!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> And the drift must be complete by the end of first week in April, or file for an extension.


So, there are 14 more days in this month, plus 7 days in April until the deadline; 21 days. FCC filings indicate a drift period of up to 20 days.

No worries.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> I highly doubt that powering down the communications payload for the move is something significant that takes weeks to accomplish.


Yep, only evaluating what might take a day or two or three. Or maybe it's something else they're planning for or waiting on.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> So, there are 14 more days in this month, plus 7 days in April until the deadline; 21 days. FCC filings indicate a drift period of up to 20 days.
> 
> No worries.


Exactly!

Technically, they may have already considered the drift to have started, if there's drift prep involved, and the STA for the IOT has expired.


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto Thanks for all your work. FYI Directv website now states that the new channel changes are *to make room for HD channels that will be launching this April.*


----------



## Ernie

RAD said:


> Who knows, maybe it will just show up at 103 and surprise everyone:lol:


That why we all have to only watch channel 9508 for the next three weeks.


----------



## loudo

Ernie said:


> That why we all have to only watch channel 9508 for the next three weeks.


I was watching the "Searching for Signal" show on 9508, a while ago.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


DirecTV-12 114
1 36131U 09075A   10077.08109063 -.00000242  00000-0  99999-4 0  1144
2 36131 000.0515 321.1457 0001697 089.7333 077.8077 01.00271116   876

Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-18-2010 01:56:46
Orbit # at Epoch	87
Inclination		0.052
RA of A. Node		321.146
Eccentricity		0.0001697
Argument of Perigee	89.733
Revs per day		1.00271116
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 794 km
Element number / age	114 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0061° W
Lat			0.0075° S
Alt (km)		35 784.810

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
114 03-18 01:56:46 35,780 x 35,794     14 +22.28H 79.07D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.05°
113 03-17 03:40:05 35,779 x 35,794     15 +45.63H 78.14D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
112 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 0.00H 76.24D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
111 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,795     16 +21.40H 76.24D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°
110 03-14 08:37:57 35,781 x 35,792     11 + 6.67H 75.34D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## matt

.01 degrees on its way? Just a little more to go?


----------



## Sixto

matt1124 said:


> .01 degrees on its way? Just a little more to go?


Nope. Orbit same. Not yet.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV web-site now states "HD channels that will be launching this April".

And "On April 22, the transition _(channel changes)_ will be complete".

And big things usually happen on Wednesdays (of which there is another )


----------



## ATARI

If D12 doesn't start moving by the weekend, then I am going to start worrying (and I'm sure I won't be the only one.)


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Sixto said:


> DirecTV web-site now states "HD channels that will be launching this April".
> 
> And "On April 22, the transition _(channel changes)_ will be complete".
> 
> And big things usually happen on Wednesdays (of which there is another )


The April 21 moves are just the HD Extra Pack channels.

maybe April 12 - April 14 as well?

will they be added to waves?

more LIL hd sooner or later?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> DirecTV web-site now states "HD channels that will be launching this April".
> 
> And "On April 22, the transition _(channel changes)_ will be complete".
> 
> And big things usually happen on Wednesdays (of which there is another )


The 22nd is on a Thursday, Earth Day.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> DirecTV-12 114


When do you sleep? :hurah:


----------



## LameLefty

DodgerKing said:


> When do you sleep? :hurah:


I think Sixto has setup some kind of alerting system that sends him a (loud, vibrating) text message or something whenever a new TLE is released, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. :grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think Sixto has an LNB hardwired into his brain. Earl Bonovich used to get accused of that.


----------



## Sixto

JoeTheDragon said:


> The April 21 moves are just the HD Extra Pack channels.
> 
> maybe April 12 - April 14 as well?
> 
> will they be added to waves?
> 
> more LIL hd sooner or later?


Been assuming that the channel moves happen first.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> When do you sleep? :hurah:


Yep, was a little anxious last night. 

Soon (I hope).


----------



## slimoli

Is it possible that some of the tests that normally would take place at 103 are actually being made at 76 and that's the reason why the bird is still there ? Just trying to be optimistic here.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Is it possible that some of the tests that normally would take place at 103 are actually being made at 76 and that's the reason why the bird is still there ? Just trying to be optimistic here.


I truly believe that all is fine and on schedule. We're just not privy to the schedule.

It may be quite possible that there are activities that need to take place prior to the start of the drift, and/or they just decided to use the complete test time to the fullest.

The reason for the optimism is that 1) there have been zero requests to modify any of the STA's, 2) the channel change schedule is now posted and April listed as the start month for new channels, and 3) there's still 6-7 weeks until any projected start based on the Wednesday's following the channel changes.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> I truly believe that all is fine and on schedule. We're just not privy to the schedule.
> 
> It may be quite possible that there are activities that need to take place prior to the start of the drift, and/or they just decided to use the complete test time to the fullest.
> 
> The reason for the optimism is that 1) there have been zero requests to modify any of the STA's, 2) the channel change schedule is now posted and April listed as the start month for new channels, and 3) there's still 6-7 weeks until any projected start based on the Wednesday's following the channel changes.


If anything, I think that they are ahead of schedule since they started moving the channels around to make room for new HD channels one week earlier than this schedule says the moves will start....

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6720003

While the first paragraph says starting March 17, the table of changes says that they start March 24, but the March 24 group actually moved on March 17, so it seems that something happened to move the schedule up a week.


----------



## paragon

cartrivision said:


> If anything, I think that they are ahead of schedule since they started moving the channels around to make room for new HD channels one week earlier than this schedule says the moves will start....
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6720003
> 
> While the first paragraph says starting March 17, the table of changes says that they start March 24, but the March 24 group actually moved on March 17, so it seems that something happened to move the schedule up a week.


Actually, it says that the channels will be listed in both locations for one week periods. So the first group will disappear from their old locations on March 24. The schedule is accurate. Think of the dates listed as the END of the one week transition period.


----------



## JeffBowser




----------



## michaelruggeri

Satellite Racer posted on the new channels thread this morning. Here is his post.

They should start in late April but nothing official yet. These are all targets guys, but the prep work is starting so that they can be ready for late April to start adding HD channels. They will NOT all come at the same time, so you can expect that there will be some waves of rollouts. Some larger, some smaller.
__________________
DIRECTV employee and part time "liaison" for this forum


----------



## cartrivision

paragon said:


> Actually, it says that the channels will be listed in both locations for one week periods. So the first group will disappear from their old locations on March 24. The schedule is accurate. Think of the dates listed as the END of the one week transition period.


I think you are right, and their table is just poorly labeled. I wouldn't have called the date that the old channel number disappeared the "change date", especially since the guide at the old channel location shows "this channel has moved to..." instead of the program names one week before that "change date".


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

JeffBowser said:


>


That's a quarter kilo of chill... what's that worth on the market?


----------



## curt8403

JeffBowser said:


>





dirtyblueshirt said:


> That's a quarter kilo of chill... what's that worth on the market?


 or in english, .55 pounds of Chill


----------



## JeffBowser

In any measuring scheme, it is often a hard pill to swallow, for too many.


----------



## bruinfever

Sixto, what I would like to know is at what point (or date) will you be worried if the drifting doesnt commence?...
If you're not worried I'm not worried!!


----------



## curt8403

bruinfever said:


> Sixto, what I would like to know is at what point (or date) will you be worried if the drifting doesnt commence?...
> If you're not worried I'm not worried!!


 I'm not worried, we have not gotten any word that D12 does not play well with others.


----------



## cartrivision

paragon said:


> Actually, it says that the channels will be listed in both locations for one week periods. So the first group will disappear from their old locations on March 24. The schedule is accurate. Think of the dates listed as the END of the one week transition period.
> 
> 
> 
> cartrivision said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you are right, and their table is just poorly labeled. I wouldn't have called the date that the old channel number disappeared the "change date", especially since the guide at the old channel location shows "this channel has moved to..." instead of the program names one week before that "change date".
Click to expand...

One problem with this theory though, just above the table they say...

_"For example, from March 24 to 31, you will be able to see SHOWTIME® channels in the new range (chs. 545-549) as well as the old range (chs. 537-542). "_

... and that doesn't match the fact that we have had the SHOWTIME channels on both ranges since March 17th, so either they are ahead of schedule, or the guy who wrote the text isn't the same guy who made the table and either put in the mismatching dates or labeled them poorly.


----------



## Sixto

bruinfever said:


> Sixto, what I would like to know is at what point (or date) will you be worried if the drifting doesnt commence?...
> If you're not worried I'm not worried!!


Tough question to answer. Will just say I'm not worried.

But continuing to track for any indication to the contrary.


----------



## wmb

dirtyblueshirt said:


> That's a quarter kilo of chill... what's that worth on the market?


They probably aren't made in the US, FDA restrictions and all. I would bet they use comma (,) as the decimal point, like they do in Europe. Thats OK, 250 mg of Chill is more than enough.


----------



## bobnielsen

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## swaff

bobnielsen said:


> Sorry, I couldn't resist.


:lol::lol:


----------



## mobandit

Why worry about this bird? It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work nothing changes from our current status. We still have more channels to watch then we have time in a day to actually watch...

It'll be fun when it lights off, but if it doesn't, it won't affect my life.


----------



## michaelruggeri

Given the fact Satellite Racer posted this morning that the new HD Channels will come in waves beginning at the end of April, then there is no problem. he would know if there was something amiss. Obviously there is not.

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

michaelruggeri said:


> he would know if there was something amiss.


So would we. DirecTV can't hide this kind of stuff, it's illegal. If something was wrong, we'd know about it.


----------



## Davenlr

Anyone notice channel 9508 and 9509? "Satellite A Band Test Channel, 103 Odd/Even? That seems to be new, never saw that before.

Nevermind, I see I missed a few pages back...


----------



## loudo

Davenlr said:


> Anyone notice channel 9508 and 9509? "Satellite A Band Test Channel, 103 Odd/Even? That seems to be new, never saw that before.


It has been there for a few days.


----------



## Davenlr

Thanks. I missed a page


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-19-2010 04:31:56
Orbit # at Epoch	88
Inclination		0.049
RA of A. Node		323.496
Eccentricity		0.0001590
Argument of Perigee	90.093
Revs per day		1.00270570
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 794 km
Element number / age	115 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0171° W
Lat			0.0238° S
Alt (km)		35 789.290

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
115 03-19 04:31:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H 80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°
114 03-18 01:56:46 35,780 x 35,794     14 +22.28H 79.07D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.05°
113 03-17 03:40:05 35,779 x 35,794     15 +45.63H 78.14D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
112 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,794     15 + 0.00H 76.24D  76.00°W  0.02°S  0.05°
111 03-15 06:02:03 35,779 x 35,795     16 +21.40H 76.24D  76.01°W  0.03°S  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## ATARI

D12 -- the Heinz Ketchup of satellites.


----------



## Rikinky

ATARI said:


> D12 -- the Heinz Ketchup of satellites.


LOL! Everyone is going to be bald, grey and our children graduating from college and then we will get a update stating D12 has finally moved!


----------



## JeffBowser

Careful - there are those of us up here who already meet a number of that criteria already. 



Rikinky said:


> LOL! Everyone is going to be bald, grey and our children graduating from college and then we will get a update stating D12 has finally moved!


----------



## CTJon

Wouldn't it be easier to re-post the 2000 messages from the D11 thread and the ones from the D10 thread all about waiting for correct positioning and all the panic than making people retype all the same things.:lol:


----------



## RAD

Maybe they lost the key for the ignition?


----------



## steveken

JeffBowser said:


> Careful - there are those of us up here who already meet a number of that criteria already.


Wait, you mean you aren't a hot redhead running down a beach through the water?????


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I was really hoping this thread’s title would be revised by now. :scratch:


----------



## syphix

Hutchinshouse said:


> I was really hoping this thread's title would be revised by now. :scratch:


+1,000

F5....F5......F5......


----------



## evan_s

steveken said:


> Wait, you mean you aren't a hot redhead running down a beach through the water?????


No, But if memory serves that's his wife =)


----------



## Crow159

Humming impatiently.....



Looks at my watch.....




Starts to tap fingers on the counter....




Looks at watch again.....





COME ON, MOVE IT!!!!


----------



## rrrick8




----------



## smiddy

Yep, my thumbs are nearly like that, I'm trying to make sure my brackets don't go to pot, dag it! Come on D - 12!


----------



## Sixto

Let's visit other threads or (better) be with our families as we wait.

No need for non-D12 throw-away posts. 

Patience. Elsewhere.


----------



## Sixto

Ah well, we have our answer ...


----------



## Sixto

D12 New STA (3/19/2010):"DirecTV ... requests ... to continue in-orbit testing ... at 76° ... to perform additional tests for a period of approximately 30 days ..."

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806452​


----------



## raoul5788

Sixto said:


> D12 New STA (3/19/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806452​


So the question is, how much, if any, will this delay the new hd channels? Is the additional testing at 76 what they would have done at 103?


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

30 more days! noooooooooooooooooooooo...........

Oh well i guess something went wrong and they have to tweak it or something.....what would be the cause of this? I'd assume they'd only test basics and then move it to 103 and once there really fine tune everything. 
Only thing I could think of is if they find something major wrong with it at its current place then they wont risk the move of it to near the other sat's and have to rush another up?.....


----------



## Sixto

raoul5788 said:


> So the question is, how much, if any, will this delay the new hd channels? Is the additional testing at 76 what they would have done at 103?


All speculation at this point.

May be fine, and still late-April, or not.

Time will tell.


----------



## slimoli




----------



## Beerstalker

Yeah 30 more days of testing at 76 doesn't sound that great. I would feel better if it said something more like "up to 30 more days". Between this 30 day extension, and the 20 day drift we are now looking at early May before it would even be parked


----------



## RAD

Bummer.


----------



## tkrandall

The "ensure it's fully functional" statement in the filing is not exactly confidence boosting.


----------



## Rikinky

Of Course! Oh well Moving on. I guess thats what happens when everyone is so eagerly anticipating this so much. It's kind of like when you get hungry and your anticipating dinner and something happens and it's delayed, so you move from hungry to iritated and then it takes longer and now you go from being iritated to getting a headache and weary! Eventually the next step is you completely loose your appetite. I just wish they could cough up some PPVHD Channels and use the space for some channels ( A Snack) to hold us over until Dinner arrives.....Just Sayin


----------



## Sgt. Slaughter

So worst case scenerio is they found something major wrong and want to make sure they can't fix it before risking the move to near the other sat's. And if unable to fix it id assume we'd be just outa luck for an extremely long time as what ive read there is no backup on the ground currently.

Best case scenerio is they just couldn't get the drift started in time and filed this, but one would think the wording would say "...up to 30 days."


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> Of Course! Oh well Moving on. I guess thats what happens when everyone is so eagerly anticipating this so much. It's kind of like when you get hungry and your anticipating dinner and something happens and it's delayed, so you move from hungry to iritated and then it takes longer and now you go from being iritated to getting a headache and weary! Eventually the next step is you completely loose your appetite. I just wish they could cough up some PPVHD Channels and use the space for some channels ( A Snack) to hold us over until Dinner arrives.....Just Sayin


I just hope they don't play the HD-Light as they did in 2005/2006. I prefer to wait instead of any picture compressing.


----------



## cforrest

Well the S2797 deals with the KA part of the satellite. I just hope nothing is wrong with the satellite and they just didn't have enough time to do all the KA testing they wanted to since they were busy doing the BSS stuff (S2796). We'll find out soon enough I guess.


----------



## Hoosier205

The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Let's not panic folks.


----------



## I WANT MORE

I WANT MORE said:


> When you see the next update it will be half way there. Trust me I know.


May I have a large helping of Black Crow, medium well with a glass of Chianti? :nono2: :nono2: :nono2:


----------



## njblackberry

What Hoosier205 said +1

IT'S JUST TELEVISION


----------



## Rikinky

Hoosier205 said:


> The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Let's not panic folks.


"It's The End Of The World As We Know It!" And I'm Doing Fine"


----------



## ivoaraujo

We shouldn't panic just yet. Anticipation will give you an ulcer, but these kind of things happen - (delays, etc.) I think we will get more news very soon. Just being optimistic here.


----------



## Sixto

It may be as simple as they decided to do more BSS testing while they had the opportunity. May not get this chance again (for several years).

Or something else needed attention.

Going to stay optimistic. These things happen.


----------



## bruinfever

Its the end of the world!!! :bang:bang


----------



## LameLefty

Most STA's are for a period of 30 days. I think that even if they believed it would take only one additional day, Directv would have to safely request 30 days.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> It may be as simple as they decided to do more BSS testing while they had the opportunity. May not get this chance again (for several years).
> 
> Or something else needed attention.
> 
> Going to stay optimistic. These things happen.


I change my mind about BSS. The STA is only for D12, not RB-2A. They each had their own STA.


----------



## bobnielsen

It could be a simple as the BSS testing taking a day or two longer than planned and not having enough time left in the original 30 day STA to do all of the planned D12 tests. It's way too early to panic.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> I change my mind about BSS. The STA is only for D12, not RB-2A. They each had their own STA.


I was just about to ask that. It said D12, and same operational parameters. Maybe they are fine tuning D12 for a quick light of new channels before moving it. This would insure that there is no overlap of signals.


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> D12 New STA (3/19/2010):"DirecTV ... requests ... to continue in-orbit testing ... at 76° ... to perform additional tests for a period of approximately 30 days ..."
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806452​


UGH!!


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> Most STA's are for a period of 30 days. I think that even if they believed it would take only one additional day, Directv would have to safely request 30 days.


If it does take one day, or one week etc, do they then have to file and request permission from the FCC to move it?

I'm also wondering if Spectrum 5 will have anything to say on the matter.


----------



## oldfantom

Sgt. Slaughter said:


> So worst case scenerio is they found something major wrong and want to make sure they can't fix it before risking the move to near the other sat's. And if unable to fix it id assume we'd be just outa luck for an extremely long time as what ive read there is no backup on the ground currently.
> 
> Best case scenerio is they just couldn't get the drift started in time and filed this, but one would think the wording would say "...up to 30 days."


As Lefty said above, it seems like all STA's are 30 days. Any major issues that would impact the ability to deliver content would have to be reported per SEC rules. If they think they can fix it, then not immediately. Regardless, I don't think it is worth worrying about. This is the same time frame they took to test the BSS in D11. I feel pretty god the Sat Racer knew about this when he said late April and when the Web Admin posted the update online. This does not change the schedule until the schedule has changed, if that makes sense.


----------



## Sixto

dpeters11 said:


> If it does take one day, or one week etc, do they then have to file and request permission from the FCC to move it?
> 
> I'm also wondering if Spectrum 5 will have anything to say on the matter.


It would have been a good choice to get the RB-2A BSS testing complete, to avoid any further Spectrum Five complaints towards a new BSS filing.

This D12 STA is now the only pending DirecTV satellite filing.

The Drift is already approved, it may only be a matter of extending it.


----------



## iceturkee

oldfantom said:


> As Lefty said above, it seems like all STA's are 30 days. Any major issues that would impact the ability to deliver content would have to be reported per SEC rules. If they think they can fix it, then not immediately. Regardless, I don't think it is worth worrying about. This is the same time frame they took to test the BSS in D11. I feel pretty god the Sat Racer knew about this when he said late April and when the Web Admin posted the update online. This does not change the schedule until the schedule has changed, if that makes sense.


SR aqlso said that april schedule was tentative and not cast in stone.


----------



## curt8403

curt8403 said:


> maybe they will have to tag D12 as "Does not play well with Others" :hair:





Tom Robertson said:


> I sure hope they don't. Then we'd have to wait for D12R to be built, launched, tested, moved, etc. Big OUCH!


I truly hope that this has not happened.


----------



## RD in Fla

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is real possible) but this is just a "request", what if the FCC doesn't grant the request?


----------



## curt8403

RD in Fla said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (which is real possible) but this is just a "request" what if the FCC doesn't grant the request? Then what?


 D12R ?


----------



## LameLefty

RD in Fla said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (which is real possible) but this is just a "request", what if the FCC doesn't grant the request?





curt8403 said:


> D12R ?


Nope. They will have to suspend testing on the basis of the expiration of the current STA to test at 76º. Depending on the reason for the request in the first place, they may either start to drift or file some other request with the FCC.

The FCC doesn't actually have jurisdiction over where the satellite is, physically, except to the extent of two factors: First, its ability to send and receive radio frequency transmissions; second, interference (physical or electronic) with other licensed transmitting space stations (i.e., satellites).


----------



## oldfantom

RD in Fla said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (which is real possible) but this is just a "request", what if the FCC doesn't grant the request?


There is always a first, but the filings are generally a formality. Spectrum 5 aside. It seems once you get moving, the FCC just rubber stamps these things. In fact, you can see the rubber stamps in the PDFs. Really what would the FCC gain by saying "no".

EDIT -
OK - Lefty beat me to the punch with the "REAL" answer. Or the "RIGHT" answer if you prefer. Mine is more observational of history.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"Now, you boys better go up there and pull that satellite down right now." Yeah, that's not going to happen. It's a formality, all part of the process.


----------



## GP245

Stuart Sweet said:



> "Now, you boys better go up there and pull that satellite down right now." Yeah, that's not going to happen. It's a formality, all part of the process.


Have we had such a "formality" in the past?


----------



## RD in Fla

So the only basis for the FCC's jurisdiction over the "move"/drift of the satellite is due to the potential physical and/or electrical interference with other transmitting space stations? Interesting. I always wondered how a United States government agency could assume jurisdiction over events taking place in space... Of course as a government attorney I should realize that jurisdiction is never really a problem


----------



## oldfantom

GP245 said:


> Have we had such a "formality" in the past?


I recall an STA for D11.


----------



## LameLefty

RD in Fla said:


> I always wondered how a United States government agency could assume jurisdiction over events taking place in space...


Well, between the Commerce Clause and the Outer Space Treaty, the government asserts jurisdiction over a lot of things.


----------



## Sixto

That was quick!

The new D12 STA has been granted (3/19/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806512​


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> That was quick!
> 
> The new D12 STA has been granted (3/19/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806512​


Must be a slow day at the FCC.


----------



## Sixto

The part that I still find curious is ...

The initial D12 76° Test STA was granted on 2/2/2010.

The grant stated that it was for 30 days from the date of D12's arrival at 76°.

On 2/11/2010, the DirecTV filing stated that D12 had arrived, and testing would begin on 2/13/2010.

30 days from 2/11 was 3/13, with 30 days from 2/13 being 3/15.

So why did they wait until 3/19 (4-6 days after expiration) to ask for an extension. Maybe there's some precedent setting buffer period and they were able to continue to test until today? Or maybe I'm somehow miss-reading the original grant, which seems to be fairly clear.

Interesting.


----------



## RobertE

RAD said:


> Must be a slow day at the FCC.


Or Mr. Duall is a DirecTv subscriber and wants more HD.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> The part that I still find curious is ...
> 
> The initial D12 76° Test STA was granted on 2/2/2010.
> 
> The grant stated that it was for 30 days from the date of D12's arrival at 76°.
> 
> On 2/11/2010, the DirecTV filing stated that D12 had arrived, and testing would begin on 2/13/2010.
> 
> 30 days from 2/11 was 3/13, with 30 days from 2/13 being 3/15.
> 
> So why did they wait until 3/19 (4-6 days after expiration) to ask for an extension. Maybe there's some precedent setting buffer period?
> 
> Interesting.


 The request said it got permission from NTIA. Maybe it had to do that before asking the FCC.


----------



## uncrules

Sixto said:


> So why did they wait until 3/19 (4-6 days after expiration) to ask for an extension. Maybe there's some precedent setting buffer period?
> 
> Interesting.


Tin Foil hat on here.









Maybe very late in in the game Directv found an issue. They stopped sending down signals when the STA expired on 3/15. For a few days they worked internally to come up with a solution to try. Once they were ready they asked for a new STA to try what they came up with.

Tin Foil hat off now.


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> So why did they wait until 3/19 (4-6 days after expiration) to ask for an extension. .


The suits spent 4 days in a meeting discussing if they should do more testing or go ahead to the 103.


----------



## Sixto

uncrules said:


> Tin Foil hat on here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe very late in in the game Directv found an issue. They stopped sending down signals when the STA expired on 3/15. For a few days they worked internally to come up with a solution to try. Once they were ready they asked for a new STA to try what they came up with.
> 
> Tin Foil hat off now.





slimoli said:


> The suits spent 4 days in a meeting discussing if they should do more testing or go ahead to the 103.


That does seem to make much sense, or some variation.

D12 will be active for 15 years, so best to get it correct now, while you have the opportunity to test whatever you want.


----------



## curt8403

It's them pesky Aliens! trying to steal the signal from our satellite! 

or else we need that there Starwars device from Spies Like Us.

that would work


----------



## bobnielsen

It could be that they were crunching the data and saw something they needed to check out some more. I suspect that they could perform just about any testing at 103, but doing so might cause interference with D10 (Ka-low spot beams, for example).


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> D12 New STA (3/19/2010):"DirecTV ... requests ... to continue in-orbit testing ... at 76° ... to perform additional tests for a period of approximately 30 days ..."
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806452​


Noooooooooooooo...

Say it ain't so.:icon_cry:


----------



## DirectMan

I hope it is not the same problem with the spotbeams that they had with D10.


----------



## netraa

glass half empty here...

what delay was there between the partial failure of d10, and the filing of the forms with the ftc/sec?

also, when dish had their sat fail, what was the filing delay?

ok, round of refills here.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

netraa said:


> glass half empty here...
> 
> what delay was there between the partial failure of d10, and the filing of the forms with the ftc/sec?
> 
> also, when dish had their sat fail, what was the filing delay?
> 
> ok, round of refills here.


My glass is half full. I think its just something minor that'll be fixed in a week or 2 and it'll start drifting after that then a bunch of Festivuses in late April and early May!


----------



## loudo

There maybe nothing wrong, maybe it is just taking longer than planned to setup and test everything. It is better to spend a little extra time and get it right the first time, than hurry it up and have problems, down the road.


----------



## dpeters11

netraa said:


> glass half empty here...
> 
> what delay was there between the partial failure of d10, and the filing of the forms with the ftc/sec?
> 
> also, when dish had their sat fail, what was the filing delay?
> 
> ok, round of refills here.


I don't know what the filing delay was, but the dish satellite "launched" on 3/14/08 from Kazakhstan and at 12:10am on 3/15 it was confirmed on dbstalk.

We'll know quickly if it's serious.


----------



## RD in Fla

Hindsight is 20/20 but it sure would have been nice if the bird went straight to 103 to begin with and didn't have to be used for the testing at 76. This speculation tonight would not have been necessary. Oh well.


----------



## QuickDrop

Coca Cola Kid said:


> My glass is half full. I think its just something minor that'll be fixed in a week or 2 and it'll start drifting after that then a bunch of Festivuses in late April and early May!


Yeah, I never really expected new HD before late April/early May anyway. Sixto's work here is great but there comes a point when it seems like some us think that refreshing the thread every two seconds will make DirecTV work faster. This, in all likelihood, is one of those ignorance is bliss situations and in a couple months the few D* subscribers who knew about the extra testing will have fretted over nothing.


----------



## doctor j

QuickDrop said:


> Yeah, I never really expected new HD before late April/early May anyway. Sixto's work here is great but there comes a point when it seems like some us think that refreshing the thread every two seconds will make DirecTV work faster. This, in all likelihood, is one of those ignorance is bliss situations and in a couple months the few D* subscribers who knew about the extra testing will have fretted over nothing.


Yea , but want's the fun in that.


----------



## evan_s

RD in Fla said:


> Hindsight is 20/20 but it sure would have been nice if the bird went straight to 103 to begin with and didn't have to be used for the testing at 76. This speculation tonight would not have been necessary. Oh well.


they couldn't do the testing at 103 with out interfering with D10. They had to send it someplace else for the testing.


----------



## bcltoys

I heard that they were sending up the space shuttle with a can of gas and a set of jumper cables.


----------



## GP245

Does Dr. Malone make house calls?


----------



## dpeters11

RD in Fla said:


> Hindsight is 20/20 but it sure would have been nice if the bird went straight to 103 to begin with and didn't have to be used for the testing at 76. This speculation tonight would not have been necessary. Oh well.


This is normal. DirecTV-10 was tested in a different slot before it was moved into position as well. They don't go straight to their permanent slot.


----------



## RD in Fla

dpeters11 said:


> This is normal. DirecTV-10 was tested in a different slot before it was moved into position as well. They don't go straight to their permanent slot.


Why? Other than the BSS testing why was D12 sent to 76?


----------



## dpeters11

RD in Fla said:


> Why? Other than the BSS testing why was D12 sent to 76?


They were testing more than BSS, they test all the components on the satellite, and do it in a different slot. Sixto and LameLefty are free to correct me if I'm wrong


----------



## LameLefty

RD in Fla said:


> Why? Other than the BSS testing why was D12 sent to 76?


Because they are also testing the Ka payload. The Ka-low spotbeams would interfere with D10.


----------



## RD in Fla

LameLefty said:


> Because they are also testing the Ka payload. The Ka-low spotbeams would interfere with D10.


Thanks.


----------



## slimoli

dpeters11 said:


> This is normal. DirecTV-10 was tested in a different slot before it was moved into position as well. They don't go straight to their permanent slot.


It can't be "normal". They had a license to test for 30 days, license expired and they waited 4 to 6 days to ask for a renewal for another 30 days. They also have to extend the license for the drifting to 103. It can be anything but "normal" it is not.


----------



## bobnielsen

slimoli said:


> It can't be "normal". They had a license to test for 30 days, license expired and they waited 4 to 6 days to ask for a renewal for another 30 days. They also have to extend the license for the drifting to 103. It can be anything but "normal" it is not.


The "normal" referred to was in response to a question about why they were testing at 76. The extension is not normal.


----------



## slimoli

bobnielsen said:


> The "normal" referred to was in response to a question about why they were testing at 76. The extension is not normal.


Roger that, sorry.


----------



## RobertE

Additional testing may not necessarily mean anything is wrong with D12. They could have had issues at the ground stations that didn't allow for full testing.


----------



## Mr.X

Question, can they just do all the testing at 76 and then move things to 103? Then turn on all the HD channels that they have planned.
My thinking is that they are going to do BBS testing at 76, then move to 103 and then do some KA testing, then turn on some new HD channel.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mr.X said:


> Question, can they just do all the testing at 76 and then move things to 103? Then turn on all the HD channels that they have planned.
> My thinking is that they are going to do BBS testing at 76, then move to 103 and then do some KA testing, then turn on some new HD channel.


All the Ka testing at 103° will be final fine tuning in the parking spot. The serious testing has to be done away from interfering with anything else.

The longest time pause at 103° will be final checkout of the channels uplink _and_ downlink on D12.

Ok and maybe for waiting for the right day of the week to actually turn on the channels.  

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> That was quick!
> 
> The new D12 STA has been granted (3/19/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806512​


Whats STA stand for?


----------



## Tom Robertson

TheRatPatrol said:


> Whats STA stand for?


It's the opposite of GO.


----------



## GP245

STA stands for Special Temporary Authority.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Never mind. It helps to read the FCC document first.  

Special Temporary Authority


----------



## V'ger

What worries me is that there has been almost no change in the perigee in over two weeks with a gap of 14-16 km and it is kinda lopsided with more error at the apogee and it was closer when D12 first got to 76W. Perhaps there is a problem in station keeping.When it first got to 76W, it was much closer to being 0 gap and equal bounds at apogee and perigee and has drifted upwards and has stayed there.


----------



## Tom Robertson

V'ger;2398578 said:


> What worries me is that there has been almost no change in the perigee in over two weeks with a gap of 14-16 km and it is kinda lopsided with more error at the apogee and it was closer when D12 first got to 76W. Perhaps there is a problem in station keeping.When it first got to 76W, it was much closer to being 0 gap and equal bounds at apogee and perigee and has drifted upwards and has stayed there.


They probably aren't trying for close station keeping during the testing phase. Their tests are likely coordinated with the orbits.

No need to waste station keeping fuel at this stage. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## wmb

Tom Robertson said:


> They probably aren't trying for close station keeping during the testing phase. Their tests are likely coordinated with the orbits.
> 
> No need to waste station keeping fuel at this stage.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think upthread, there was mention that they orient the satellite so that the individual spot beams point at the ground station for testing. If that is the case, those adjustments in orientation may affect the position.


----------



## Ed Campbell

I can't take the suspense.


----------



## HelenWeathers

I look at it this way: They should take their time and do all of the testing they feel they need to do. It's not like they have another bird ready to launch any time soon to do any future testing with.

I'm as anxious as anyone else to see this one go live, but I can see the logic in giving them the time they need.


----------



## LameLefty

V'ger;2398578 said:


> What worries me is that there has been almost no change in the perigee in over two weeks with a gap of 14-16 km and it is kinda lopsided with more error at the apogee and it was closer when D12 first got to 76W. Perhaps there is a problem in station keeping.When it first got to 76W, it was much closer to being 0 gap and equal bounds at apogee and perigee and has drifted upwards and has stayed there.


Don't worry about any "gap". The Earth isn't a perfect sphere, and neither is any real-world orbit. Worry about orbital period.


----------



## Rikinky

So I wonder if D* will change their headline on their website that states that channels are being moved to make room for new Hd Channels coming in April?
Or do they know something we don't? muhahahaaaa!!!!!!!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> So I wonder if D* will change their headline on their website that states that channels are being moved to make room for new Hd Channels coming in April?
> Or do they know something we don't? muhahahaaaa!!!!!!!


I don't see where it says they'll start adding new HD in April. it says "Some Premium Channels Are *Moving* to Make Room for More HD Channels."

and "The *move* will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21."


----------



## Rikinky

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I don't see where it says they'll start adding new HD in April. it says "Some Premium Channels Are *Moving* to Make Room for More HD Channels."
> 
> and "The *move* will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21."


Direct Quote:
Beginning March 17, SHOWTIME®, Starz®, Encore®, Cinemax® and HD Extra Pack will be moving to new channel ranges to make room for HD channels that will be launching this April. The move will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21.


----------



## Rikinky

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Where does it say the dates they will add new HD though? I read it probably 5 times and couldn't find it. Its about them moving channels around, that's it. They've learned to stop committing to dates for new HD since they can't seem to keep their promises.


It states in this sentence that Hd Channels will be added in APRIL, but no specific day but it clearly says Quote:
will be moving to new channel ranges to make room for HD channels that will be launching this April.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> Direct Quote:
> Beginning March 17, SHOWTIME®, Starz®, Encore®, Cinemax® and HD Extra Pack will be moving to new channel ranges to make room for HD channels that will be launching this April. The move will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21.


Maybe they'll put them on D11?? :lol:


----------



## Rikinky

It would be nice if they threw us a bone after such a long HD Channel drought expecially if were going to have to be delayed another 45 days or longer. However I hope they don't throw us some compressed Hd channels to satisfy some. I would rather wait and get the best just sayin...


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> It would be nice if they threw us a bone after such a long HD Channel drought expecially if were going to have to be delayed another 45 days or longer. However I hope they don't throw us some compressed Hd channels to satisfy some. I would rather wait and get the best just sayin...


No HD-Lite, please!! I canceled Directv in 2005 because of it.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I thought one of their FCC documents said it had to be at 103 by May 5. Does this new grant push that date back too?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I thought one of their FCC documents said it had to be at 103 by May 5. Does this new grant push that date back too?


The May 5th date was just an estimate, quite some time ago.

The only dates that now matter are the grant for testing at 76°, and the grant for the drift (which may need to be extended). They're already licensed for 103° when D12 gets there.


----------



## matt

It's like being a little kid flying home for Christmas morning and getting stuck at the airport or something... soon enough I guess.


----------



## VeniceDre

Looks like I need to go get my hair cut again. 

Anyway... Any estimate on how long it could take to drift to 103 once it starts?


----------



## Jeremy W

VeniceDre said:


> Anyway... Any estimate on how long it could take to drift to 103 once it starts?


About three weeks.


----------



## Sixto

Was re-reading yesterday's extension request, and in the actual application it does state "up to" 30 days, as we expected.

30 days is one of the standard time periods."DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to continue to conduct in-orbit testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite for up to 30 days at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location."​


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> About three weeks.


But if they chose they could accelerate it and trade off the operational life of the satellite.

The "best news" theory is the BSS testing took longer than expected and they got behind on Ka testing, so they want to complete that. If there was anything seriously wrong with the satellite DirecTV/Boeing would have to report that.


----------



## smiddy

Anything we say is mere speculation. Until DirecTV announces what is going on, we will not know. We need to relax and wait. I know, this is tough for this crowd, but please refrain from being nutty, ok?  <Mwah>


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Was re-reading yesterday's extension request, and in the actual application it does state "up to" 30 days, as we expected.
> 
> 30 days is one of the standard time periods."DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to continue to conduct in-orbit testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite for up to 30 days at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location."​


Finally, "up to" used in a way I like. :lol:

Thanks for the optimism.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Was re-reading yesterday's extension request, and in the actual application it does state "up to" 30 days, as we expected.
> 
> 30 days is one of the standard time periods."DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests Special Temporary Authority to continue to conduct in-orbit testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite for up to 30 days at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location."​


Lets all be thankful it doesn't say SOON. :eek2:


----------



## slimoli

Sixto

If the STA is for the D12, does it mean whatever happened has nothing to do with the BSS test ? Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Sixto
> 
> If the STA is for the D12, does it mean whatever happened has nothing to do with the BSS test ? Thanks.


Yes, that would be the assumption.


----------



## grooves12

RD in Fla said:


> Why? Other than the BSS testing why was D12 sent to 76?


It is standard procedure to test in a different slot, if they have a failure while in location at the permanent slot, they could make it impossible or infeasible to launch a replacement satellite to that location. You don't want a broken satellite orbiting in your valuable orbital slot if you can help it.


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> But if they chose they could accelerate it and trade off the operational life of the satellite.


Of course. But they're not going to do that, so it'll take about three weeks.


----------



## je4755

A few questions for the cognoscenti regarding a worst case scenario: if D12 were to fail, to whom must DirecTV report this information (there have been references to mandatory disclosure in this thread, instanced by Jeremy’s post #3660)? Is there a deadline by which this disclosure must be transmitted? Do reporting requirements differ if there only is a partial failure (such as some D10 spotbeams, if I recall correctly)?


----------



## Hdhead

Keep a close eye on the stock price. Bad info always leaks and will be reflected in a lower stock price before an actual press release.

Mmmmm......Interesting http://www.marketintellisearch.com/articles/1006222.html


----------



## hdtvfan0001

je4755 said:


> A few questions for the cognoscenti regarding a worst case scenario: if D12 were to fail, to whom must DirecTV report this information (there have been references to mandatory disclosure in this thread, instanced by Jeremy's post #3660)? Is there a deadline by which this disclosure must be transmitted? Do reporting requirements differ if there only is a partial failure (such as some D10 spotbeams, if I recall correctly)?





Hdhead said:


> Keep a close eye on the stock price. Bad info always leaks and will be reflected in a lower stock price before an actual press release.
> 
> Mmmmm......Interesting http://www.marketintellisearch.com/articles/1006222.html


There's not 1 minuscule bit of evidence to suggest that things are not proceeding just fine with D12, so this kind of speculation is simply irrelevant.

Remember...they are testing something new, along with the base plan packages as well.


----------



## Jeremy W

je4755 said:


> if D12 were to fail, to whom must DirecTV report this information


They have to file form 8-K with the SEC.


je4755 said:


> Is there a deadline by which this disclosure must be transmitted?


As soon as they're aware that the problem is serious, they pretty much have to file ASAP. They can't wait around.


je4755 said:


> Do reporting requirements differ if there only is a partial failure (such as some D10 spotbeams, if I recall correctly)?


No. The reason we know about the D10 spotbeam problems is because DirecTV had to report it.


----------



## Hdhead

Better get this buggy moving......http://spaceflightnow.com/proton/echostar14/


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hdhead said:


> Better get this buggy moving......http://spaceflightnow.com/proton/echostar14/


Not to worry....they are challenged enough getting a working bird in the air, let alone getting it in position and operational anywhere near the D12 date.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There's not 1 minuscule bit of evidence to suggest that things are not proceeding just fine with D12, so this kind of speculation is simply irrelevant.


Oh, there's definitely some evidence that things are not "just fine" with D12. It's not much, and it's most likely nothing. But it's there.


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed, Jeremy. One of my very reliable sources whom I never quote here--we have Satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with D12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this: 

"The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."

Hmmm...


----------



## Hdhead

Lord Vader said:


> "The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."


Big gulp, that's scary. :nono:


----------



## P Smith

Time to put the thread on hold for a month at least. Or we will see 4000 more cry posts.


----------



## Rikinky

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed, Jeremy. One of my very reliable sources whom I never quote here--we have Satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with D12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this:
> 
> "The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."
> 
> Hmmm...


So big question to everyone: If it is the worst case scenerio who will still pledge their allegiance to D* or will the grass be greener on E*? Who will become weary in lack of HD and jump ship? HMMMMMM!!!!


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed, Jeremy. One of my very reliable sources whom I never quote here--we have Satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with D12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this:
> 
> "The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."
> 
> Hmmm...


We heard similar reports about D10 when it took longer than expected to go live. Turned out to be a relatively small problem affecting certain spotbeams only.

I'm gonna just wait and see on this one.


----------



## Lord Vader

Hdhead said:


> Big gulp, that's scary. :nono:


I agree, but I'm not going to figure out what that means, nor am I going to run around yelling Chicken Little, either.

Time will tell, but I'll say this: the whole conversation I had with my friend worried me. I'll share one comment I said to him in reply to some things he said to me: "If that's true, it will devastate DirecTV." (By true, I was referring to the worst case scenario, which I am not saying is going to happen.)


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Time to put the thread on hold for a month at least. Or we will see 4000 more cry posts.


If you don't want to see "4000 more cry posts" you are free to stop reading this thread. But nobody's going to put it on hold for you.


----------



## Sixto

Here's how we found out about D10:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837​


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> We heard similar reports about D10 when it took longer than expected to go live. Turned out to be a relatively small problem affecting certain spotbeams only.
> 
> I'm gonna just wait and see on this one.


That is the best approach.


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> I'll share one comment I said to him in reply to some things he said to me: "If that's true, it will devastate DirecTV." (By true, I was referring to the worst case scenario, which I am not saying is going to happen.)


Is your friend Swanni? :nono:

NOTHING that can possibly happen to D12 will "devastate" Directv. If the entire satellite bus has failed, then it sure will derail their HD expansion plans. But it won't do a darn thing to D10/11 or the Spaceways. And since Directv already holds the Ka licenses for 103, if they are willing to throw the money at the problem they could probably have a replacement built and ready to fly within 2 years.


----------



## mobandit

Just a little fuel for the fire...when was the last time you saw a D* commercial touting the 200 channel capacity?


----------



## Lord Vader

LameLefty said:


> Is your friend Swanni? :nono:
> 
> NOTHING that can possibly happen to D12 will "devastate" Directv. If the entire satellite bus has failed, then it sure will derail their HD expansion plans. But it won't do a darn thing to D10/11 or the Spaceways. And since Directv already holds the Ka licenses for 103, if they are willing to throw the money at the problem they could probably have a replacement built and ready to fly within 2 years.


Swanni's an idiot, but if the unlikely scenario of DirecTV having to wait to years for more HD expansion should occur (I don't believe that's going to happen), this would definitely be devastating to DirecTV.


----------



## GP245

mobandit said:


> Just a little fuel for the fire...when was the last time you saw a D* commercial touting the 200 channel capacity?


Today!


----------



## Rikinky

LameLefty said:


> Is your friend Swanni? :nono:
> 
> NOTHING that can possibly happen to D12 will "devastate" Directv. If the entire satellite bus has failed, then it sure will derail their HD expansion plans. But it won't do a darn thing to D10/11 or the Spaceways. And since Directv already holds the Ka licenses for 103, if they are willing to throw the money at the problem they could probably have a replacement built and ready to fly within 2 years.


OK I'm starting to really get depressed now! This is starting to get like a loved one went on a voyage and we recieve a letter stating that he or she may still be alive but nothing definitive. Geez could you imagine the funeral service?


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> OK I'm starting to really get depressed now! This is starting to get like a loved one went on a voyage and we recieve a letter stating that he or she may still be alive but nothing definitive. Geez could you imagine the funeral service?


I am already depressed with the best possible scenario: MONTHS ?


----------



## Indiana627

lord vader said:


> indeed, jeremy. One of my very reliable sources whom i never quote here--we have satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with d12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this:
> 
> "the situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."
> 
> hmmm...


OMG NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Rikinky

I can handle a couple of months. I mean we've already waited how long? but YEARS? "Not So Much"... But I can't stand E* or my cable affiliate. Ugh Sucks waiting doesn't it?


----------



## slimoli

Paging Satracer...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

slimoli said:


> Paging Satracer...


DBS Talk base to Satelliteracer, do you copy, over?


----------



## matt

Satracer line 1, Satracer line 1.


----------



## Sixto

Stop. Please.


----------



## Hdhead

slimoli said:


> Paging Satracer...


Doubt satracer will speak out on this one....but a simple NOMINAL would go a long way. :sure:


----------



## Rikinky

Ok I found a great temporary solution (Just Hypethedical) So don't blast me please! Anyway a temporary solution would take Sixto's top HD Channel Poll list and free the bandwith to launch the top 10 or even 5 Channels from it It would definately ease some tention! ...Just a thought!


----------



## tunce

Wow, this is sure a bummer. "*IF*" it were two more years until we would see more national HD channels, that are truly broadcasting, I would be leaving Directv as fast as I could call them. As that would mean they have to dumbest board known to man. As if this does happen (a total failure of D12) they would have to rethink there business strategy and shift it to offer less HD-PPV and use that bandwidth for the National Feeds. They would also need to look at what is the lowest profit making channels and push them out to stay competitive.

I for one am not loyal to Directv, I have been their customer since 1998 but that is because my local cable company has been awful. Recently their costs have been less then Directv being that I can bundle my internet into them as they are the only ISP offered in my neighborhood. As of very recently their HD has caught up to Directv as well. So it would not be that hard to swallow the switch for me anymore.

Here's to hoping that it will not come to that!


----------



## carl6

First, one post with a RUMOR that there is a problem with D12 should not set of panic in the masses.

Second, even IF there is a serious problem with it, I am confident that DirecTV has options available to it. First of all they are not running the current satellites at full capacity. Second, they have the option of shuffling what is and is not being carried to meet the most important demand. I'm sure there are other options and it is absurd for us to speculate on them at this point in time.

Bottom line, don't panic. Wait and see what is actually going on, then (if something really is wrong) wait and see what the options are, THEN worry about what you individually might need to do in response to that.


----------



## Rikinky

In reality if (Worst case scenerio) D12 is a flop won't this force D* to get rid of alot of PPVHD Channels to free up bandwith for National Hd Channels? if not I would have to agree that they will be left in the dust....


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Rikinky said:


> In reality if (Worst case scenerio) D12 is a flop won't this force D* to get rid of alot of PPVHD Channels to free up bandwith for National Hd Channels? if not I would have to agree that they will be left in the dust....


Drop what some west HD feeds? and a few HD PPV?
Are they holding space for CSN NW and CSN Philly right now that they can't give up?


----------



## loudo

mobandit said:


> Just a little fuel for the fire...when was the last time you saw a D* commercial touting the 200 channel capacity?


About 2 hours ago while watching Green Planet.


----------



## Hdhead

The greatest threat for me is a revival of HDlite.


----------



## JJEZ96

Why did DTV start moving channels to make room for new ones, if there is a problem with D12? It seems like they would have waited.


----------



## slimoli

Hdhead said:


> The greatest threat for me is a revival of HDlite.


HDlite means at least one customer switching immediately.


----------



## Davenlr

They have two satellites (or more, havent looked lately) at 110 and 119. There is absolutely no reason they cannot use transponders on those KU satellites for mpeg4. They could free up enough space on 110 for three or four channels by just getting rid of the HD Mpeg2 channels there. They could take current HD channels that are hardly ever show any non-upconverted content, and reduce the resolution to DVD quality widescreen, and group several of those channels on one transponder.

I sure wouldnt jump ship from DirecTv. I might drop HBO if they dont add any of the other HBO HD channels, or switch back to Starz, but I sure dont want to go to Dish with their downres'd HD channels. I havent seen much HD added by Dish I would really watch anyway.

Im not as concerned about it as I was when D10 had its delay, thats for sure.


----------



## David MacLeod

why is everyone going nuts off an unsubstantiated rumor from an unnamed source


----------



## donyoop

Doesn't currently look good for the home team. Might have to postpone/cancel the SWM/DECA/MRV upgrade scheduled for next Saturday. It would have been smarter to wait until (now if) D12 comes online. 

Don


----------



## slimoli

JJEZ96 said:


> Why did DTV start moving channels to make room for new ones, if there is a problem with D12? It seems like they would have waited.


Who knows ? Maybe they are moving BECAUSE there is a problem with D12 and they knew that 3 weeks ago. The decision to move channels is very recent.


----------



## slimoli

David MacLeod said:


> why is everyone going nuts off an unsubstantiated rumor from an unnamed source


Because the rumor came from a guy who has more than 4000 posts here, like you.


----------



## tcusta00

slimoli said:


> Because the rumor came from a guy who has more than 4000 posts here, like you.


I have 7000. D12 is probably fine according to my unnamed source.


----------



## Davenlr

donyoop said:


> Doesn't currently look good for the home team. Might have to postpone/cancel the SWM/DECA/MRV upgrade scheduled for next Saturday. It would have been smarter to wait until (now if) D12 comes online.
> 
> Don


That makes no sense. Why would waiting for a new satellite have anything to do with MRV/DECA and SWM?


----------



## VeniceDre

Sixto said:


> Here's how we found out about D10:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837​


Actually I broke it when I overheard a conversation a few days earlier while I was getting my hair cut down in Marina Del Rey, just north of El Segundo... I informed a couple of the Mods (Tom & Doufg) before they went public with this release... Hopefully it's just the same.


----------



## sigma1914

Davenlr said:


> They have two satellites (or more, havent looked lately) at 110 and 119. There is absolutely no reason they cannot use transponders on those KU satellites for mpeg4. They could free up enough space on 110 for three or four channels by just getting rid of the HD Mpeg2 channels there. They could take current HD channels that are hardly ever show any non-upconverted content, and reduce the resolution to DVD quality widescreen, and group several of those channels on one transponder.


Won't happen.

Using sats at 110 & 119 is not smart. Many many many customers have SL3 LNBs and don't get those sats.


----------



## DogLover

slimoli said:


> Who knows ? Maybe they are moving BECAUSE there is a problem with D12 and they knew that 3 weeks ago. The decision to move channels is very recent.


Actually, the announcement was very recent. Do we have any evidence of when the decision was made?


----------



## David MacLeod

slimoli said:


> Because the rumor came from a guy who has more than 4000 posts here, like you.


post count means nothing.
look I just gained another.

people are going to get all angry and worked up over this with no substantiation.

I am my own source, I rumor its ok. least that rumor wasn't anonymous.


----------



## Hdhead

tcusta00 said:


> I have 7000. D12 is probably fine according to my unnamed source.


..probably fine.. brings me no great comfort.


----------



## evan_s

Relax people. If there is some major issue with D12 we will find out shortly. Something like that would fall into the category of they must disclose because of the financial impact it would have.


----------



## donyoop

Davenlr said:


> That makes no sense. Why would waiting for a new satellite have anything to do with MRV/DECA and SWM?


I have no current commitment. The install includes a new 2 year commit, so jumping ship is more $ painful.

Don


----------



## tcusta00

Hdhead said:


> ..probably fine.. brings me no great comfort.


I was being facetious to illustrate the point that people will believe any unsubstantiated rumor by an anonymous person with an anonymous source on the internet.


----------



## Mr.X

Maybe there having problem with the BBS part of the satellite, not the Ka part of it.


----------



## VeniceDre

Until someone credible with known ties to Directv posts information or there is a press release this is all just running in circles.


----------



## matt

Man, all that has happened so far is D* said they wanted more time to test and already there is a mutiny in the works. You guys gonna riot?


----------



## Lord Vader

slimoli said:


> Because the rumor came from a guy who has more than 4000 posts here, like you.


I wouldn't call it a rumor; I wouldn't call it absolute fact. I'm just sharing some information from someone whom I trust completely, as he has never told me anything inaccurate before.

Let me allay any concerns--neither I nor my friend is saying D12 is failing, burning up in the atmosphere, or uncontrollably accelerating toward Saturn _a la_ a Toyota Prius.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

slimoli said:


> Because the rumor came from a guy who has more than 4000 posts here, like you.


That must mean the rumor is true then.... (no offense Vader)

Come on folks....the sky isn't falling. None of us know anything at this point that warrants pushing the panic button.


----------



## tuckerdog

This does become a conundrum on the horns of a dilemma.
I have no "inside info" however I would imagine the happy or sad truth will shake out in the near term.
Assuming the worst and sadly the satellite is kaput
I have both Comcast and DTV. Have had DTV since 1996. 5 DVR's and every channel and package they have.
Why Comcast. Blazer games as Comcast Sports NW is being held out by Comcast.
Was about to cancel Comcast but now am not sure. I am "loyal" to DTV in the context that I am used to their UI, quirks etc. Not loyal though as I would be to a friend. I recognize that they are a business and I am merely one of millions of customers.
If D12 is gone, and I still have hope that it is recoverable, and if this means no new assets for DTV then I am seriously thinking of switching my plans and cancelling D and going with Comcast in the interim.
I won't pretend to speak for others but the decision is not personal as some try to make it. Merely what's best for me


----------



## Lord Vader

HDTVsportsfan said:


> That must mean the rumor is rtue then.... (no offense Vader)


I find your lack of faith disturbing.


----------



## VeniceDre

HDTVsportsfan said:


> That must mean the rumor is rtue then.... (no offense Vader)
> 
> Come on folks....the sky isn't falling. None of us know anything at this point that warrants pushing the panic button.


:wave:


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

VeniceDre said:


> :wave:


Hello old friend. How's it going? Disappointed in your avatar. 

On Topic: Anything new yet on D12.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Hello old friend. How's it going? Disapponited in your avatar.
> 
> On Topic: Anything new yet on D12.


Nope, nothin' new. 

Mike


----------



## syphix

Lord Vader's last post from his "reliable source" said that MSNBC HD was gonna light up on 2/30/10. It didn't. Either he was joking and using the phrase "reliable source" loosely (and irresponsibly, IMO), or his source was wrong.

Either way, let's all calm down and wait and see.


----------



## GP245

syphix said:


> Lord Vader's last post from his "reliable source" said that MSNBC HD was gonna light up on 2/30/10. It didn't. Either he was joking and using the phrase "reliable source" loosely (and irresponsibly, IMO), or his source was wrong.
> 
> Either way, let's all calm down and wait and see.


"2/30/10" ????? - That'll be the day!


----------



## sigma1914

syphix said:


> Lord Vader's last post from his "reliable source" said that MSNBC HD was gonna light up on 2/30/10. It didn't. Either he was joking and using the phrase "reliable source" loosely (and irresponsibly, IMO), or his source was wrong.
> 
> Either way, let's all calm down and wait and see.


Read the date, again. :lol:


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

syphix said:


> Lord Vader's last post from his "reliable source" said that MSNBC HD was gonna light up on 2/30/10. It didn't. Either he was joking and using the phrase "reliable source" loosely (and irresponsibly, IMO), or his source was wrong.
> 
> Either way, let's all calm down and wait and see.


He actually never said what year and.....only 28 days in Feb this year.


----------



## donyoop

syphix said:


> Lord Vader's last post from his "reliable source" said that MSNBC HD was gonna light up on 2/30/10. It didn't. Either he was joking and using the phrase "reliable source" loosely (and irresponsibly, IMO), or his source was wrong.
> 
> Either way, let's all calm down and wait and see.


I always say I'll finish things on February 31. Are we 12 days early Vader?


----------



## syphix

Wow. Read that post 10 times and never caught that!!

Ok, so that raises the question of whether Lord Vader's use of the term "reliabe sources" is all in jest...


----------



## RobertE




----------



## MartyS

Well Put, Robert. 

Until D* reports this "Major problem" with D12, there no one "reliable source" that I'm going to listen to.

This thread has truly deteriorated, and most likely will continue to do so. I have plenty of HD channels. Would I like more, sure, but will I switch to ComCrap or Dish HD Lite to get them, NFW.

4 years ago I had no HD. Today 95% of what I watch is in HD. If that last 5% takes a bit more time, then that's life folks.


----------



## Rikinky

RobertE said:


>


ROTFL!!!!!


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914 said:


> Read the date, again. :lol:


Exactly, sigma. There was a reason I wrote "2/30/10." It's amazing that you-know-who couldn't even notice that! :rotfl:


----------



## mobandit

loudo said:


> About 2 hours ago while watching Green Planet.


Whew, that's good news!


----------



## Rikinky

Does this mean were not getting the 400 HDPPV's that Swanni said was coming? Well then GOODBYE I'M OUT OF HERE WHAT A SHAM! I had a party reserved for all the PPV'S.


----------



## rrrick8

Update 116



Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10078.82128951 -.00000243  00000-0  99999-4 0  1167
2 36131 000.0458 323.1399 0001606 084.6254 349.1062 01.00270748   896


----------



## slimoli

rrrick8 said:


> Update 116
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131U 09075A   10078.82128951 -.00000243  00000-0  99999-4 0  1167
> 2 36131 000.0458 323.1399 0001606 084.6254 349.1062 01.00270748   896


???


----------



## rrrick8

rrrick8 said:


> Update 116
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131U 09075A   10078.82128951 -.00000243  00000-0  99999-4 0  1167
> 2 36131 000.0458 323.1399 0001606 084.6254 349.1062 01.00270748   896





slimoli said:


> ???


Just showing that it's not free-falling ..... yet.


----------



## Lord Vader

I have said all along that its dilithium crystals need to be re-energized, but y'all ignored me.

You've been warned. 

Don't say I didn't tell you so.


----------



## loudo

I am just going to watch channel 9508 and wait for the "Searching for Signal" show to get over with. :lol:


----------



## DodgerKing

Of course there is something wrong, that is why they extended the testing. That does not mean that D12 is done. Something wrong can be something minor that they want to fix before moving it; something minor that they cannot fix (a spot beam issue or one of the transponders took a crap), but will move it eventually once they determine if it is fixable or not; or something major. Considering they asked for an extension for testing, the chances are greater that it is something minor and/or fixable. If it was major and not fixable, they would not have asked for an extension.


----------



## Sixto

We'll be fine. Patience as they continue to test.


----------



## Lord Vader

"This is only a test. Had this been an actual emergency..."

!Devil_lol


----------



## donyoop

Lord Vader said:


> "This is only a test. Had this been an actual emergency..."
> 
> !Devil_lol


What a day. Whoo. <extreme relief> Glad we made it.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/03/19/alien-abduction-day/?test=latestnews


----------



## inkahauts

donyoop said:


> Doesn't currently look good for the home team. Might have to postpone/cancel the SWM/DECA/MRV upgrade scheduled for next Saturday. It would have been smarter to wait until (now if) D12 comes online.
> 
> Don


MRV and swm will not in any way shape or form have anything to do with D12....


----------



## inkahauts

slimoli said:


> Who knows ? Maybe they are moving BECAUSE there is a problem with D12 and they knew that 3 weeks ago. The decision to move channels is very recent.


Uh, I would imagine the decision was made ages ago when they started making contracts to add more HD channels.. They just didn't announce it publicly till recently...


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Mark Walters, It shames me to say this, but QVC HD actually looks fantastic.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Mark Walters, It shames me to say this, but QVC HD actually looks fantastic.


When we get it though will it be on channel 275 or on channel 317?


----------



## HerntDawg

If i didn't read this thread i wouldn't even know there was a "new" sat. The possibility that there is a problem with it doesn't matter. I will wait with knowledge of something better.


----------



## wmb

rrrick8 said:


> Just showing that it's not free-falling ..... yet.


Um, actually, its been free falling since the moment it was launched.


----------



## joed32

inkahauts said:


> MRV and swm will not in any way shape or form have anything to do with D12....


I think the poster is saying he doesn't want to get a new commitment in case he wants to change services if D12 fails.


----------



## ATARI

wmb said:


> Um, actually, its been free falling since the moment it was launched.


True.


----------



## LameLefty

Mark Walters said:


> People are depressed about this D12 with no news confirming or denying your worst fears..... (SNIPPED OFF-TOPIC POLITICAL CRAP)


Please keep your politics out of this thread.

:backtotop


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> Who knows ? Maybe they are moving BECAUSE there is a problem with D12 and they knew that 3 weeks ago. The decision to move channels is very recent.


Or maybe they are moving the channels to provide sequential numbers for new HD channels in the same groupings, where the vacated numbers used to be. 

Just like they have done multiple times before...all the HBO's together, all the ESPN's together, etc...

That is something I would expect to see, and points to them preparing for additional channels as planned.

Still no *evidence* the sky is falling. Until then, there is no reason to believe otherwise.


----------



## TBlazer07

Lord Vader said:


> but if the unlikely scenario of DirecTV having to wait to years for more HD expansion should occur (I don't believe that's going to happen), this would definitely be devastating to DirecTV.


I doubt that. Probably 98% of the DirecTV customers don't even know another sat was even launched and already have 10x more HD then they will ever need right now and could care less.


----------



## Indiana627

Lord Vader said:


> I have said all along that its dilithium crystals need to be re-energized, but y'all ignored me.
> 
> You've been warned.
> 
> Don't say I didn't tell you so.





Lord Vader said:


> "This is only a test. Had this been an actual emergency..."
> 
> !Devil_lol


So are you now saying that your source was wrong and there's not a major problem?


----------



## davring

TBlazer07 said:


> Probably 98% of the DirecTV customers don't even know another sat was even launched
> 
> Much fewer than that are aware.


----------



## Doug Brott

D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


*removes tinfoil hat* :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


And now we get back to our regular scheduled programming. 

And await the completion of testing, and the Drift.


----------



## Hdhead

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Thanks Doug. I really didn't think there was a terminal problem but your words are certainly reassuring.


----------



## ptuck874

me thinks mr vadar likes to use the dark side a little too much, much as a lot of us do  lol


----------



## JoeTheDragon

davring said:


> TBlazer07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably 98% of the DirecTV customers don't even know another sat was even launched
> 
> Much fewer than that are aware.
> 
> 
> 
> They did show the launch live on one of the Directv channels (open to all subs)
Click to expand...


----------



## Doug Brott

JoeTheDragon said:


> They did show the launch live on one of the Directv channels (open to all subs)


Yeah, an obscure channel that was brought up just for the launch .. You couldn't even record it without setting a manual recording. Not likely that it was on in too many homes that day


----------



## davring

JoeTheDragon said:


> davring said:
> 
> 
> 
> They did show the launch live on one of the Directv channels (open to all subs)
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know one person, other than here, who even knew of the channel or the launch, unless I made them aware.
Click to expand...


----------



## davring

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


You ruined all the fun


----------



## joed32

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Thanks, we needed that.


----------



## I WANT MORE

loudo said:


> I am just going to watch channel 9508 and wait for the "Searching for Signal" show to get over with. :lol:


I can't decide whether to watch that or MMM. Hum........


----------



## dpeters11

davring said:


> JoeTheDragon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know one person, other than here, who even knew of the channel or the launch, unless I made them aware.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet there are a lot of people that never knew we lost Versus, and some that know we lost it and don't know we got it back.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lord Vader

davring said:


> TBlazer07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Probably 98% of the DirecTV customers don't even know another sat was even launched
> 
> Much fewer than that are aware.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. A lot more are or will be aware. The advertising that DISH would do, coupled with the press or media coverage, would serve to inform a lot of people. Bad news travels a lot more quickly than does good news.
Click to expand...


----------



## dpeters11

Lord Vader said:


> davring said:
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. A lot more are or will be aware. The advertising that DISH would do, coupled with the press or media coverage, would serve to inform a lot of people. Bad news travels a lot more quickly than does good news.
> 
> 
> 
> Did a lot of average Dish customers know about their failure?
Click to expand...


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> I beg to differ. A lot more are or will be aware. The advertising that DISH would do, coupled with the press or media coverage, would serve to inform a lot of people. *Bad news travels a lot more quickly than does good news.*


With all due respect, I choose to accept Doug's news over the unsubstantiated anonymous source's.


----------



## slimoli

LameLefty said:


> With all due respect, I choose to accept Doug's news over the unsubstantiated anonymous source's.


I just don't know if what Doug said is news, opinion or wishful thinking.


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> I just don't know if what Doug said is news, opinion or wishful thinking.


I know.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> With all due respect, I choose to accept Doug's news over the unsubstantiated anonymous source's.


Same here.


----------



## uncrules

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


No disrespect intended but is this something you heard from Directv or is this your opinion.


----------



## litzdog911

uncrules said:


> No disrespect intended but is this something you heard from Directv or is this your opinion.


Doug has reliable sources at DirecTV.


----------



## tonyd79

dpeters11 said:


> Lord Vader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a lot of average Dish customers know about their failure?
> 
> 
> 
> No, and I don't remember DirecTV having a major campaign about it. FWIW, most satellite customers have no idea how many birds are in the air at all.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lord Vader

Please do not attribute comments to me that were not made by me.

Regardless, DISH is more apt to launch ads against DirecTV for the latter's failure to launch more HD than DirecTV is to launch ads against DISH.


----------



## tonyd79

Lord Vader said:


> Please do not attribute comments to me that were not made by me.
> 
> Regardless, DISH is more apt to launch ads against DirecTV for the latter's failure to launch more HD than DirecTV is to launch ads against DISH.


Sorry, but blame the webpage. I just hit the quote button.


----------



## Hdhead

Lord Vader, please give your mole a call and tell him or her they have been overruled. Let us know the reaction. :friendsch:


----------



## Lord Vader

I never said the thing was burning up in the atmosphere, and remember, I also said I didn't necessarily believe that my friend was predicting total gloom and doom. Personally, I don't think there's a major problem.


----------



## TBlazer07

JoeTheDragon said:


> davring said:
> 
> 
> 
> They did show the launch live on one of the Directv channels (open to all subs)
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I'm sure that channel was in everyone's "favorites." :lol:
Click to expand...


----------



## TBlazer07

Lord Vader said:


> davring said:
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. A lot more are or will be aware. The advertising that DISH would do, coupled with the press or media coverage, would serve to inform a lot of people. Bad news travels a lot more quickly than does good news.
> 
> 
> 
> There is something wrong with the "QUOTING" on this forum. It started a couple days ago when some messages I quoted have someone else's name inside it. Incorrect "quote" tags are being added to some message like this one. I'm "quoting" "Lord Vader's" message and it has DAVRING's name attached to it . I could delete it but I left it as an example.
> 
> OK, I'll restate my comment. The vast majority woudn't care whether they were aware or not.
Click to expand...


----------



## TBlazer07

dpeters11 said:


> I bet there are a lot of people that never knew we lost Versus, and some that know we lost it and don't know we got it back.


And even more who didn't care! :lol:


----------



## RobertE

TBlazer07 said:


> There is something wrong with the "QUOTING" on this forum. It started a couple days ago when some messages I quoted have someone else's name inside it. Incorrect "quote" tags are being added to some message like this one. I'm "quoting" "Lord Vader's" message and it has DAVRING's name attached to it . I could delete it but I left it as an example.
> 
> OK, I'll restate my comment. The vast majority woudn't care whether they were aware or not.


It only gets broke when people edit what they are quoting and mess up the formatting tags.


----------



## Doug Brott

RobertE said:


> It only gets broke when people edit what they are quoting and mess up the formatting tags.


Yup .. and when you (OK, not you, the generic "you") quote the broken tags, the broken tags hang around ..


----------



## Ed Campbell

"I bet there are a lot of people that never knew we lost Versus, and some that know we lost it and don't know we got it back."

I received a TVMail [or whatever they call it - the notification that pops up in the Guide] about it from D* - that it had returned.


----------



## David MacLeod

Doug Brott said:


> Yup .. and when you (OK, not you, the generic "you") quote the broken tags, the broken tags hang around ..


and if you quote the "broken" post the rumors keep abounding....


----------



## Shades228

Isn't it possible that nothing is wrong with the sat and they decided to be more aggressive about the time table to move it giving them more time to run tests?


----------



## P Smith

Shades228 said:


> Isn't it possible that *nothing is wrong* with the sat and they decided to be more aggressive about the time table to move it giving them more time to run tests?


Well, you did read that last DTV FCC request [STA], right ?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

P Smith said:


> Well, you did read that last DTV FCC request [STA], right ?


I did and didn't see any mention of "something wrong". They just want to do additional testing. Its not the end of the world.


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> Well, you did read that last DTV FCC request [STA], right ?


As I said...They got UP to 30 more days. Big deal...it was ahead of schedule. Now, it's on schedule. Take off the tinfoil hat. :lol:


----------



## P Smith

No need to go personal flam.


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> No need to go personal flam.


No need for FUD.


----------



## P Smith

sigma1914 said:


> No need for FUD.


Good excuse for your finger pointing posts.


----------



## matrixj3

Ed Campbell said:


> "I bet there are a lot of people that never knew we lost Versus, and some that know we lost it and don't know we got it back."
> 
> I just read this thread and did not know versus was back!
> Just put it in my favs!


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> Good excuse for your finger pointing posts.


Well, are you or are you not posting about the filing request like it's a huge blow to D12 plans?


----------



## P Smith

Enough.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

matrixj3 said:


> I just read this thread and did not know versus was back!
> Just put it in my favs!


Ya been back since Monday. 

DIRECTV and VERSUS Reach Carriage Agreement; Sports Net Returns to DIRECTV Lineup Today


----------



## rrrick8

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## Lancelink

Hdhead said:


> Keep a close eye on the stock price.....


For all the speculation here, what happens within the first 15 minutes of the NASDAQ opening Monday morning will in fact be the best early indicator if there is a potential major problem.. If you want to know watch the ticker DTV.


----------



## ATARI

Lancelink said:


> For all the speculation here, what happens within the first 15 minutes of the NASDAQ opening Monday morning will in fact be the best early indicator if there is a potential major problem.. If you want to know watch the ticker DTV.


For your clicking convenience: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ecn?s=DTV


----------



## rorkin

The simple answer is usually the most likely.. Since they were testing some 
uses of bands not heretofore used, it seems likely that they discovered things along the way that they wanted to refine. The chance to do more testing is not in the near future so I would expect they want to be as thourough and extensive while they had the chance. A lot of money could be riding on those tests. Rerhaps they even are trying to push the envelope on the capabilities of the technology . FWIW


----------



## dcowboy7

Lancelink said:


> For all the speculation here, what happens within the first 15 minutes of the NASDAQ opening Monday morning will in fact be the best early indicator if there is a potential major problem.. If you want to know watch the ticker DTV.


Its up +0.07 in after hours trading now.

It was down the 1.18 friday because of the citi/goldman downgrades.
Normally 10.3 million shares are traded per day....on friday it was 25.9 because people really unloaded.


----------



## Rikinky

Isn't it crazy how there can be 99 people saying everything will be ok, but one person says disaster and all the focus will be on the one person prophesying disaster rather than the 99 declaring it's going to be fine. I myself am guilty of falling in the same statistics. However it is a fresh of breath air when someone who is trusted to have reliable sources to say everything will be fine. It's kind of like when something happens to us physically that we can't see. We tend to imagine the worst when in fact 95 to 99% of the time everything turns out to be fine! Until it stated in fine print one can only speculate at this point. But until then I will walk by faith and not by sight......Just Sayin...


----------



## Indiana627

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Coming from you that means A LOT. Thanks Doug.


----------



## Jeremy W

Rikinky said:


> Isn't it crazy how there can be a 99 people say everything will be ok, but one person say disaster and all the focus will be on the one person prophesying disaster rather than the 99 how declare it's going to be fine.


The reason is because the 99 people saying it's going to be OK are really just talking out of their backside. They're assuming it'll be OK simply because they haven't heard anything to the contrary. When someone comes along quoting a source, regardless of who or what the source is, that has at least a little more weight than someone's assumption based solely on a lack of information.

The bottom line is, the STA request to extend the testing was a cause for some concern. Not a large amount at all, but to go "LA LA LA EVERYTHING IS PERFECT LA LA LA" is just as unwarranted as the reports of the sky falling. It's ridiculous how people's feelings either for or against DirecTV cloud their reasoning in something like this.


----------



## tj177mmi

Its hilarious how bent out of shape people get over "additional testing" and quickly assume something is wrong with the satellite. It could have easily been a ground issue, or they just wanted to make sure all their cards are in the deck before making the "big move".


----------



## Rikinky

We'll isn't this quite interesting on the timing:
Direct Quote:
"DISH Network continues to launch new satellites to remain at the forefront of multi-channel video programming," said Tom Cullen, executive vice president of Sales, Marketing and Programming for DISH Network. "We look forward to extending our industry-leading HD line-up to well over 200 channels." .... On launching their new EchoStar XIV Satellite on March 20, 2010. ..... Here we go again with the 200 HD Channels!


----------



## Jeremy W

tj177mmi said:


> Its hilarious how bent out of shape people get over "additional testing" and quickly assume something is wrong with the satellite. It could have easily been a ground issue, or they just wanted to make sure all their cards are in the deck before making the "big move".


Or it could have been something wrong with the satellite.


----------



## dpeters11

Jeremy W said:


> The reason is because the 99 people saying it's going to be OK are really just talking out of their backside. They're assuming it'll be OK simply because they haven't heard anything to the contrary. When someone comes along quoting a source, regardless of who or what the source is, that has at least a little more weight than someone's assumption based solely on a lack of information.
> 
> The bottom line is, the STA request to extend the testing was a cause for some concern. Not a large amount at all, but to go "LA LA LA EVERYTHING IS PERFECT LA LA LA" is just as unwarranted as the reports of the sky falling. It's ridiculous how people's feelings either for or against DirecTV cloud their reasoning in something like this.


Personally, I don't think Doug is talking out his backside. To me, him saying that is about as good as SatelliteRacer himself coming on and saying the same thing (which we know he won't, even if everything is fine.)


----------



## TBlazer07

Rikinky said:


> We'll isn't this quite interesting on the timing:
> Direct Quote:
> "DISH Network continues to launch new satellites to remain at the forefront of multi-channel video programming," said Tom Cullen, executive vice president of Sales, Marketing and Programming for DISH Network. "We look forward to extending our industry-leading HD line-up to well over 200 channels." .... On launching their new EchoStar XIV Satellite on March 20, 2010. ..... Here we go again with the 200 HD Channels!


"Well Over 200" vs. "Capacity" ..... hmmmmm. :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

dpeters11 said:


> Personally, I don't think Doug is talking out his backside.


I wasn't referring to Doug.


----------



## crawdad62

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed, Jeremy. *One of my very reliable sources whom I never quote here*--we have Satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with D12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this:
> 
> *"The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."*
> 
> Hmmm...





Lord Vader said:


> I agree, but I'm not going to figure out what that means, nor am I going to run around yelling Chicken Little, either.
> 
> Time will tell, but I'll say this: the whole conversation I had with my friend worried me. *I'll share one comment I said to him in reply to some things he said to me: "If that's true, it will devastate DirecTV."* (By true, I was referring to the worst case scenario, which I am not saying is going to happen.)


Boy for someone you don't never quote here you've certainly quoted a lot here.


----------



## Piratefan98

I knew it! Time to switch to Dish and their 200 HD's










Jeff


----------



## Lord Vader

crawdad62 said:


> Boy for someone you don't ever quote here you've certainly quoted a lot here.


I didn't know two or three times constituted "a lot."


----------



## am7crew

TBlazer07 said:


> "Well Over 200" vs. "Capacity" ..... hmmmmm. :lol:


vs "D*'s press release in 2007 about launching all HBO's in HD" :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

Piratefan98 said:


> I knew it! Time to switch to Dish and their 200 HD's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeff


:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## crawdad62

Lord Vader said:


> I didn't know two or three times constituted "a lot."


Never and any is a lot. Never seems pretty definite in my book.


----------



## slimoli

dpeters11 said:


> Personally, I don't think Doug is talking out his backside. To me, him saying that is about as good as SatelliteRacer himself coming on and saying the same thing (which we know he won't, even if everything is fine.)


Well, I disagree. He would come if everything was fine, like he did many other times. If Doug comes up and say "I "know" everything is fine", that's good enough for me but his post can be interpreted as:

-"I think" ,
-"I wish" or
-"I know" .


----------



## Piratefan98

Here in Gettysburg, the locals aren't happy about the latest developments. Quite a stir downtown this afternoon.










Jeff


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned





Indiana627 said:


> Coming from you that means A LOT. Thanks Doug.


+1
:bowdown:


----------



## RobertY

:lol:Until there`s official word everything`s fine.


----------



## FHSPSU67

I've stayed out of this so far, but if Doug says D12 is fine, it's fine.


----------



## matt

I guess I am one of the few who remains optimistic about this.

If something so bad happened that rendered the whole thing inoperable, I bet a company this large, who has put this much time, effort, money, and advertising has no contingency plan at all, since this is their one and only bird in the whole universe. 

There is no way they could dump a few channels and come up with space for more HD. We HAVE to have all these PPV channels. It would just be crazy to dump half of them. We NEED five channels playing the same movie.

There is also no way at all that HD customers could be switched out with a 5 LNB from a 3 LNB to use bandwidth on other birds. No other satellite company has ever put HD channels on a bird that not all customers can see and had to come switch out a customers dish. Cant think of any-E*-one that has ever done that...

In fact, I just can't think of any possible way at all that they could figure out how to get more HD channels. Nobody can, because I can't find a single thread of anyone discussing how they are annoyed that they don't just drop something from the lineup and use that space to add more HD channels with the current birds and how practical it would actually be to do that.

I can't think of any possible answer but to leave, find another provider, and be mad about it.


----------



## smiddy

matt1124 said:


> I guess I am one of the few who remains optimistic about this.
> 
> If something so bad happened that rendered the whole thing inoperable, I bet a company this large, who has put this much time, effort, money, and advertising has no contingency plan at all, since this is their one and only bird in the whole universe.
> 
> There is no way they could dump a few channels and come up with space for more HD. We HAVE to have all these PPV channels. It would just be crazy to dump half of them. We NEED five channels playing the same movie.
> 
> There is also no way at all that HD customers could be switched out with a 5 LNB from a 3 LNB to use bandwidth on other birds. No other satellite company has ever put HD channels on a bird that not all customers can see and had to come switch out a customers dish. Cant think of any-E*-one that has ever done that...
> 
> In fact, I just can't think of any possible way at all that they could figure out how to get more HD channels. Nobody can, because I can't find a single thread of anyone discussing how they are annoyed that they don't just drop something from the lineup and use that space to add more HD channels with the current birds and how practical it would actually be to do that.
> 
> I can't think of any possible answer but to leave, find another provider, and be mad about it.


You forgot the smilie at the end...I love the sarcasm, it drips with viscosity.


----------



## levibluewa

appear to be the test channels for the yet to arrive new satellite. You get the message "searching for satellite 771"


----------



## houskamp

Move that BUS!

oops wrong phrase :lol:


----------



## say-what

For everyone worried about D12, DirecTV, as a publicly traded company, would have to release a statement if there were a problem, much like they did with D10 when testing revealed a problem with the spot beams.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837

If there's an issue with D12, you'll hear about it soon enough. If not, you'll be seeing programming soon enough.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

say-what said:


> For everyone worried about D12, DirecTV, as a publicly traded company, would have to release a statement if there were a problem, much like they did with D10 when testing revealed a problem with the spot beams.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837
> 
> If there's an issue with D12, you'll hear about it soon enough. If not, you'll be seeing programming soon enough.


Yeah but in 2007 D* was owned by News Corp. Now its Liberty. Different company, different policies.


----------



## say-what

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yeah but in 2007 D* was owned by News Corp. Now its Liberty. Different company, different policies.


The SEC doesn't care.


----------



## ATARI

say-what said:


> For everyone worried about D12, DirecTV, as a publicly traded company, would have to release a statement if there were a problem, much like they did with D10 when testing revealed a problem with the spot beams.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98837
> 
> If there's an issue with D12, you'll hear about it soon enough. If not, you'll be seeing programming soon enough.


Seems to me sarbanes oxley would demand a press release if something bad enough has happened.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

say-what said:


> The SEC doesn't care.


The SEC doesn't require them to give out company secrets.


----------



## ATARI

Coca Cola Kid said:


> The SEC doesn't require them to give out company secrets.


See my previous post. The SEC does demand news of a material nature that could effect stock price needs to be released. So at this point, I am reassured that no news is thus good news.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

ATARI said:


> See my previous post. The SEC does demand news of a material nature that could effect stock price needs to be released. So at this point, I am reassured that no news is thus good news.


Who's sarbanes oxley?


----------



## Lord Vader

Only one of the worst laws ever passed (or best, depending on how you look at it).


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Oh its a law. Excuse my ignorance.


----------



## gpg

I think they are obligated to reveal news of a material nature, but I don't think that obligation starts until there is a definitive determination that a problem exists. IOW, if they're testing workarounds or alternative scenarios to overcome an issue with D12 (if there is one), I don't think they have to inform investors until they're certain they can't overcome it.


----------



## Lord Vader

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Oh its a law. Excuse my ignorance.


Yes, it is, but let's not go down the political argument path about it.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Lord Vader said:


> Yes, it is, but let's not go down the political argument path about it.


Agreed.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Maybe we'll hear something tomorrow.


----------



## slimoli

A material adverse change to the regular business of a company must be reported to the SEC but it can take few days or weeks before Directv comes to any conclusion on how big the damage is, if any. If we don't see anything reported this Monday, it means absolutely nothing, positive or negative. Directv now has 30 days to "test" something we don't know and my guess is that nothing will come up for quite some time . Most likely we will see new HD channels announced soon, whatever the problem with the D12 can be. I don't have any source, just my fricking opinion.


----------



## Sixto

What we know is that DirecTV had an approved test period (the original request/grant), and decided to do some additional testing (Friday's request/grant). Hopefully that will conclude shortly.

We also know that the roll-out schedule is currently unchanged, per the post earlier today.

With the channel relocation scheduled to conclude on Wednesday 4/21, it was safe to assume that national HD was scheduled for shortly afterwards, most likely the usual Wednesday.

Still 5-6 weeks away, plenty of time to complete testing and deployment.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> What we know is that DirecTV had an approved test period (the original request/grant), and decided to do some additional testing (Friday's request/grant). Hopefully that will conclude shortly.
> 
> We also know that the roll-out schedule is currently unchanged, per the post earlier today.
> 
> With the channel relocation scheduled to conclude on Wednesday 4/21, it was safe to assume that national HD was scheduled for shortly afterwards, most likely *the usual Wednesday.*
> 
> Still 5-6 weeks away, plenty of time to complete testing and deployment.


Why is Wednesday always the special day for everything with D*? Why not Monday, start of the work week; or Saturday/Sunday when more people are home for the weekend? Just seems odd to me.


----------



## Jeremy W

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Why is Wednesday always the special day for everything with D*? Why not Monday, start of the work week; or Saturday/Sunday when more people are home for the weekend? Just seems odd to me.


It used to be Tuesday.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Why is Wednesday always the special day for everything with D*? Why not Monday, start of the work week; or Saturday/Sunday when more people are home for the weekend? Just seems odd to me.


Someone had posted a while back why Wednesday was a good day. Something to do with everyone being prepared mid-week to create the event, and react to it, both from a development/support and call center perspective.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jeremy W said:


> It used to be Tuesday.


Wednesday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to make Thursday the new Wednesday, which would mean Thursday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to go back to the old Tuesday and scrap Wednesdays that became the new Tuesday.


----------



## inkahauts

All that, and yet the biggest addition of HD channels Directv has ever done in one shot, and will probably ever do in one shot, took place on a ..... Monday....


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Lord Vader said:


> Wednesday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to make Thursday the new Wednesday, which would mean Thursday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to go back to the old Tuesday and scrap Wednesdays that became the new Tuesday.


:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## cbayus

Let me add my two cents to this smoldering cauldron.

Take any of this with how many ever grains of salt you feel appropriate.

I have some amateur experience with satellite building and testing (nothing on this scale but big enough to have some educated thoughts).

First off the 30 day extension means nothing other than D* wants to do some testing. Ranging from "we have a problem El Segundo", to we want to do all the testing and configuration we can to make D12 as operational as we can before moving to 103 (setting up the package broadcast uplink side and TP assignments etc). My guess is that it is closer to the latter than the former.

Secondly WE WILL KNOW SOON. We will find out by one of four ways. FCC filing (least likely), SEC (second least likely), D* press release (second most likely), and by two-line element (most likely). Until then I will and would recommend that any speculation (including my own) and rumor (except for Sixto, Doug Brott and Satelliteracers') be taken with a grain of salt.

Well there are my two cents. Now let the flames begin..

BTW thanks to the fore-mentioned three. You provide the information that keeps this place going and somewhat sane.


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> All that, and yet the biggest addition of HD channels Directv has ever done in one shot, and will probably ever do in one shot, took place on a ..... Monday....


Thursday 8/14/2008 (31), Wednesday 11/14/2007 (30).

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=172899


----------



## SuperZ06

Lord Vader said:


> Wednesday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to make Thursday the new Wednesday, which would mean Thursday is the new Tuesday, unless they decide to go back to the old Tuesday and scrap Wednesdays that became the new Tuesday.


:lol::lol:


----------



## gphvid

My suspicion is that the RB-2A (?) package is needing more testing seeing that it is a new thing. I don't think D12 is in trouble at all as I would have expected to see something in that regard much sooner than now. Why wait until nearly the last minute to suddenly report a problem with the bird? Doesn't make sense to me....

So I believe patience is the order of the day...


----------



## Jeremy W

gphvid said:


> My suspicion is that the RB-2A (?) package is needing more testing seeing that it is a new thing.


Your suspicion is incorrect, since they didn't file an extension for testing RB-2A. D12 and RB-2A are, as far as the FCC is concerned, two separate satellites. D12's testing has been extended, RB-2A's is done.


----------



## gphvid

Jeremy W said:


> Your suspicion is incorrect, since they didn't file an extension for testing RB-2A. D12 and RB-2A are, as far as the FCC is concerned, two separate satellites. D12's testing has been extended, RB-2A's is done.


Ah, well. It was just a thought anyway. Not knowing anything about the testing and everything involved with it, I only mildly assumed the new platform might need more time. But then, guess not. So, as i said, patience should be the rule of the day.


----------



## cartrivision

Any increase in trading volume for DTV or DTV options last Friday is most likely attributable to the fact that Goldman and Citigroup both downgraded DTV stock on Friday.

Those downgrades aren't likely to be related to some undisclosed problem with D12, as that would put Goldman and Citigroup in the position of having issued their trading recommendations based on insider information, which would be illegal.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Your suspicion is incorrect, since they didn't file an extension for testing RB-2A. D12 and RB-2A are, as far as the FCC is concerned, two separate satellites. D12's testing has been extended, RB-2A's is done.


You don't know that. It's just as likely that BSS testing took longer and/or in some way delayed Ka testing, thus necessitating the STA for additional time to complete it.

We can speculate about LOTS of things, but in the absence of any word from Directv (through SEC filings, PR announcements or the like), I'll stick with what Doug said.


----------



## rrrick8

Sixto said:


> Thursday 8/14/2008 (31), Wednesday 11/14/2007 (30).
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=172899


Friday June 19th, 1994 (75 + 21 USSB =96, not counting PPV)


----------



## Ed Campbell

"Friday June 19th, 1994 (75 + 21 USSB =96, not counting PPV"

Actually, I recall that. My 4th month as a subscriber.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Changes in DTV stock, this morning, appear to be positive. Up 0.21% as I post.

Only options indications over the weekend was some investor buying a big block - a bullish indicator. No negative rumors/news.


----------



## Lancelink

Ed Campbell said:


> Changes in DTV stock, this morning, appear to be positive....


Yep, pretty strong indication that there is no significant concern _within_ D* / Liberty about a major problem with D12. All still speculation of course, but pretty strong evidence.


----------



## RAD

Lancelink said:


> Yep, pretty strong indication that there is no significant concern _within_ D* / Liberty about a major problem with D12. All still speculation of course, but pretty strong evidence.


From the same Wall Street folks that didn't see the sub prime meltdown?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Please, let's not go in that direction.


----------



## Rikinky

RAD said:


> From the same Wall Street folks that didn't see the sub prime meltdown?


Some folks refuse to accept good news. I'm feeling pretty confident that things are going just fine!


----------



## HarleyD

LameLefty said:


> You don't know that. It's just as likely that BSS testing took longer and/or in some way delayed Ka testing, thus necessitating the STA for additional time to complete it.
> 
> We can speculate about LOTS of things, but in the absence of any word from Directv (through SEC filings, PR announcements or the like), I'll stick with what Doug said.


This doesn't surprise me.

I beleive that exhausitve testing of RB-2A took place and may have gone longer than anticipated. I think DirecTV already anticipated this possibility and was fully prepated for it...if not outright expecting it.

Not becuase they are going to make any sort of commercial use of RB-2A. In fact I believe RB-2A is a throwaway package intended solely for IOT of the new technology. The length of time spent on BSS indicates to me success rather than failure. If they were "close" to getting all the testing and results they were looking for then seeing it through at the expense of days or even weeks is only prudent. If however it were an abject failure then it would be time to move on, deal with what already works for them and get this sucker parked.

My guess is that BSS will ultimately be rolled out and probably co-located at the 99 slot, where DirecTV already has the rights to broadcast BSS and they won't have to contend or coordinate with Ciel or Spectrum 5. The D12 deployment just presented a convenient and unusual opportunity to actually piggyback the BSS package onto a planned payload and put a new technology through its' paces in a 'live' setting before attempting to actually deploy it. BSS is now a known quantity after the IOT at 76.

Now that this testing of BSS at 76 has been completed the comparatively mundane testing of the established technology can take place and D12 can drift and be placed into service upon the completion of that testing.

To us a few weeks may seem like a lifetime and it certainly doesn't play well with our fervent, almost child-like anticipation but in the grand scheme of a long range business plan it is insignificant and the time invested in the deployment of a new technology, while a hindrance to our short term desire for HD goodness will probably serve us all well over the long haul.

Or not.


----------



## mobandit

HarleyD said:


> This doesn't surprise me.
> 
> I beleive that exhausitve testing of RB-2A took place and may have gone longer than anticipated. I think DirecTV already anticipated this possibility and was fully prepated for it...if not outright expecting it.
> 
> Not becuase they are going to make any sort of commercial use of RB-2A. In fact I believe RB-2A is a throwaway package intended solely for IOT of the new technology. The length of time spent on BSS indicates to me success rather than failure. If they were "close" to getting all the testing and results they were looking for then seeing it through at the expense of days or even weeks is only prudent. If however it were an abject failure then it would be time to move on, deal with what already works for them and get this sucker parked.
> 
> My guess is that BSS will ultimately be rolled out and probably co-located at the 99 slot, where DirecTV already has the rights to broadcast BSS and they won't have to contend or coordinate with Ciel or Spectrum 5. The D12 deployment just presented a convenient and unusual opportunity to actually piggyback the BSS package onto a planned payload and put a new technology through its' paces in a 'live' setting before attempting to actually deploy it. BSS is now a known quantity after the IOT at 76.
> 
> Now that this testing of BSS at 76 has been completed the comparatively mundane testing of the established technology can take place and D12 can drift and be placed into service upon the completion of that testing.
> 
> To us a few weeks may seem like a lifetime and it certainly doesn't play well with our fervent, almost child-like anticipation but in the grand scheme of a long range business plan it is insignificant and the time invested in the deployment of a new technology, while a hindrance to our short term desire for HD goodness will probably serve us all well over the long haul.
> 
> Or not.


:bowdown: A tremendous analysis, and probably closer to the truth than most of the Chicken Little types that have posted in this thread over the last 2-3 days. I admit I tried to add a little fuel to the fire (a couple hundred posts back) but was glad when my wild speculation was shown to be false.


----------



## Darkscream

D* doesn't seem too bothered by all this hysteria.

They sent out messages on the mail system this morning about channels changing numbers so as to allow the "launch of additional HD Channels".


----------



## Sixto

Somewhat quirky behavior with update #117. Two sites with different data for #117 so I've included both.

This is also the first time that D12 has moved outside the range of 75.95-76.05. It's at 76.08, but the data is suspect.

Even though it's slightly outside 76.05, this isn't the orbit to get to 103. It would take until November at this rate.

This is either quirky data (which is possible), or a maneuver required for this additional testing, or the beginning of the move.

Should have a better indication in the next few days (or sooner).



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-22-2010 13:16:22
Orbit # at Epoch	91
Inclination		0.048
RA of A. Node		338.054
Eccentricity		0.0001707
Argument of Perigee	64.926
Revs per day		1.00268319
Period			23h 56m 08s (1436.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 795 km
Element number / age	117 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0830° W
Lat			0.0107° S
Alt (km)		35 788.290

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
116 03-19 19:42:39 35,780 x 35,794     14 +15.18H 80.81D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.05°
115 03-19 04:31:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H 80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°
114 03-18 01:56:46 35,780 x 35,794     14 +22.28H 79.07D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## texasmoose

HarleyD said:


> This doesn't surprise me.
> 
> I beleive that exhausitve testing of RB-2A took place and may have gone longer than anticipated. I think DirecTV already anticipated this possibility and was fully prepated for it...if not outright expecting it.
> 
> Not becuase they are going to make any sort of commercial use of RB-2A. In fact I believe RB-2A is a throwaway package intended solely for IOT of the new technology. The length of time spent on BSS indicates to me success rather than failure. If they were "close" to getting all the testing and results they were looking for then seeing it through at the expense of days or even weeks is only prudent. If however it were an abject failure then it would be time to move on, deal with what already works for them and get this sucker parked.
> 
> My guess is that BSS will ultimately be rolled out and probably co-located at the 99 slot, where DirecTV already has the rights to broadcast BSS and they won't have to contend or coordinate with Ciel or Spectrum 5. The D12 deployment just presented a convenient and unusual opportunity to actually piggyback the BSS package onto a planned payload and put a new technology through its' paces in a 'live' setting before attempting to actually deploy it. BSS is now a known quantity after the IOT at 76.
> 
> Now that this testing of BSS at 76 has been completed the comparatively mundane testing of the established technology can take place and D12 can drift and be placed into service upon the completion of that testing.
> 
> To us a few weeks may seem like a lifetime and it certainly doesn't play well with our fervent, almost child-like anticipation but in the grand scheme of a long range business plan it is insignificant and the time invested in the deployment of a new technology, while a hindrance to our short term desire for HD goodness will probably serve us all well over the long haul.
> 
> Or not.


Gr8 take, props 2 u!


----------



## Sixto

It is possible that the first STA did expire. It was 30 days from arrival, which was 2/11, ending on 3/13. With testing beginning on 2/13, maybe it was through 3/15.

If the STA did actually expire, then no testing to earth would have been allowed from 3/16 through 3/18.

So either there was some buffer period where D12 was able to be continue transmitting to earth during the week of 3/15, or the testing didn't require transmission to earth during that period, or maybe they had one last round of testing to complete and didn't expect to start until 3/19. Many possibilities.

All in good fun guessing, because as has been stated, all is fine and national HD is on schedule.


----------



## slimoli

Directv website has been updated. No longer mentions "in April" when talking about the new HD channels. April is only mentioned as a deadline to change the channel numbers.


----------



## Jon J

Complete OT but Dish's new satellite was successfully launched.


----------



## Curtis0620

Jon J said:


> Complete OT but Dish's new satellite was successfully launched.


So.


----------



## loudo

slimoli said:


> Directv website has been updated. No longer mentions "in April" when talking about the new HD channels. April is only mentioned as a deadline to change the channel numbers.


I might have missed it but I don't ever recall seeing anywhere where it said April for new channels. Only April for the end of the move of the existing channels.


----------



## Sixto

loudo said:


> I might have missed it but I don't ever recall seeing anywhere where it said April for new channels. Only April for the end of the move of the existing channels.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2398641#post2398641


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2398641#post2398641


Ok, thanks. I was looking at the notice in my TVmail folder and didn't see it there.


----------



## Rikinky

I was expecting D* to update their website and remove April. But it still doesn't mean they won't release any.


----------



## thelucky1

slimoli said:


> Directv website has been updated. No longer mentions "in April" when talking about the new HD channels. April is only mentioned as a deadline to change the channel numbers.


Beginning March 17, SHOWTIME®, Starz®, Encore®, Cinemax® and HD Extra Pack will be moving to new channel ranges to make room for HD channels that will be launching on DIRECTV. The move will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21.


----------



## Rikinky

Here is some positive news regarding D*:
Stocks are up 2.15% which according to some, declared doomsday for D12 Status if stocks were on the decline on Monday.


----------



## curt8403

Jon J said:


> Complete OT but Dish's new satellite was successfully launched.


 is this going to be anything like the old Genesis Video where Reagan tries to press the Nurse button and presses the Nuke button?


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> You don't know that. It's just as likely that BSS testing took longer and/or in some way delayed Ka testing, thus necessitating the STA for additional time to complete it.


What don't I know? All I said is that they're not testing RB-2A right now, since they don't have an STA allowing them to do so. I didn't comment as to why they need extra time to test D12, only that this extra time is allowing testing of the Ka payload only.


----------



## curt8403

Dear D12, 
We are all concerned for your health. Please get better soon. 
:hurah:


----------



## Lancelink

Rikinky said:


> ...which according to *some*, declared doomsday for D12 ...


Which some is that?


----------



## Rikinky

Hdhead said:


> Keep a close eye on the stock price. Bad info always leaks and will be reflected in a lower stock price before an actual press release.
> 
> Mmmmm......Interesting http://www.marketintellisearch.com/articles/1006222.html


Here is one post with that assumption


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> Here is one post with that assumption


It means nothing. The stock was downgraded last Friday by Citigroup and Goldman because they assumed all the good news have been already priced in.
It's too early to know if there is or will be any material adverse change on Directv's business *IF* there is something really bad going on with the D12. We don't have a definitive answer yet and the stock will keep trading normally.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

HarleyD said:


> To us a few weeks may seem like a lifetime and it certainly doesn't play well with our fervent, *almost child-like* anticipation .....


Almost? ALMOST?!?!? I resent that! At times this thread has been *very* child-like!


----------



## slimoli

thelucky1 said:


> Beginning March 17, SHOWTIME®, Starz®, Encore®, Cinemax® and HD Extra Pack will be moving to new channel ranges to make room for HD channels that will be launching on DIRECTV. The move will take place over a six-week period, ending on April 21.


The move will end April 21 but they can add HD channels anytime after that. In previous statement, they mentioned "new HD channels this April" and now they removed the "this April" from the website. Clear now ?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> It means nothing. The stock was downgraded last Friday by Citigroup and Goldman because they assumed all the good news have been already priced in.
> It's too early to know if there is or will be any material adverse change on Directv's business *IF* there is something really bad going on with the D12. We don't have a definitive answer yet and the stock will keep trading normally.


More important - any such guessing, speculation, and unfounded rumors* would all be irrelevant* unless some *factual evidence * surfaces.

Until then, its much to do about nothing.


----------



## QuickDrop

mobandit said:


> :bowdown: A tremendous analysis, and probably closer to the truth than most of the Chicken Little types that have posted in this thread over the last 2-3 days. I admit I tried to add a little fuel to the fire (a couple hundred posts back) but was glad when my wild speculation was shown to be false.


There can currently be noadequate analysis of this situation, let alone good or "tremendous" analysis, because of the simple fact that we do not have the adequate information for analysis. Jeremy W. is correct; people posting now are essentially prone to be positive or negative on the reasons for the further testing. There is absolutely no evidence or information to analyze other than the fact D* needed more time for testing. This could be bad; this could be meaningless; but we have no way of knowing until we get more facts.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jack Horner, the paleontologist on whom Sam Neill's character in _Jurassic Park_ is based, used to say something like this: dinosaur hunting is like looking at someone's shadow on the wall in dim candlelight and trying to guess what he had for dinner the night before. I know I'm wildly paraphrasing but you see the point.

I'm thinking that observing DIRECTV12 is like dinosaur hunting.


----------



## Sixto

Still not sure if moving, but getting interesting. 

Same timestamp as last time, so still somewhat skeptical.



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-22-2010 13:16:22
Orbit # at Epoch	91
Inclination		0.051
RA of A. Node		347.634
Eccentricity		0.0001896
Argument of Perigee	54.541
Revs per day		1.00266393
Period			23h 56m 10s (1436.17 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 796 km
Element number / age	118 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0938° W
Lat			0.0194° S
Alt (km)		35 788.850

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
118 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H 83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
116 03-19 19:42:39 35,780 x 35,794     14 +15.18H 80.81D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.05°
115 03-19 04:31:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H 80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## mike_augie

so because i cant read this very well is it moving in the right direction ?? lol sorry have to ask ...



Sixto said:


> Still not sure if moving, but getting interesting.
> 
> Same timestamp as last time, so still somewhat skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		03-22-2010 13:16:22
> Orbit # at Epoch	91
> Inclination		0.051
> RA of A. Node		347.634
> Eccentricity		0.0001896
> Argument of Perigee	54.541
> Revs per day		1.00266393
> Period			23h 56m 10s (1436.17 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 166 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 796 km
> Element number / age	118 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			76.0938° W
> Lat			0.0194° S
> Alt (km)		35 788.850
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 118 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H 83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
> 117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 116 03-19 19:42:39 35,780 x 35,794     14 +15.18H 80.81D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.05°
> 115 03-19 04:31:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H 80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Doug Brott

QuickDrop said:


> There can currently be noadequate analysis of this situation, let alone good or "tremendous" analysis, because of the simple fact that we do not have the adequate information for analysis. Jeremy W. is correct; people posting now are essentially prone to be positive or negative on the reasons for the further testing. There is absolutely no evidence or information to analyze other than the fact D* needed more time for testing. This could be bad; this could be meaningless; but we have no way of knowing until we get more facts.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2399842#post2399842


----------



## Rikinky

The silence of Satelliteracer is disturbing at this point also.


----------



## Sixto

mike_augie said:


> so because i cant read this very well is it moving in the right direction ?? lol sorry have to ask ...


yes. as little as it can move. 

will be a little more confident that it's actually moving when we see whole degrees of movement. 

and these flakey TLE's (same timestamp, conflicting data) aren't making me 100% sure yet. maybe soon.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Still not sure if moving, but getting interesting.
> 
> Same timestamp as last time, so still somewhat skeptical.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		03-22-2010 13:16:22
> Orbit # at Epoch	91
> Inclination		0.051
> RA of A. Node		347.634
> Eccentricity		0.0001896
> Argument of Perigee	54.541
> Revs per day		1.00266393
> Period			23h 56m 10s (1436.17 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 166 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 796 km
> Element number / age	118 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			76.0938° W
> Lat			0.0194° S
> Alt (km)		35 788.850
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 118 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H 83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
> 117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 116 03-19 19:42:39 35,780 x 35,794     14 +15.18H 80.81D  76.03°W  0.03°N  0.05°
> 115 03-19 04:31:56 35,780 x 35,794     14 +26.59H 80.17D  76.02°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


....or an indication of loss of control...oh just slap me. :grin:


----------



## jilardi2

mike_augie said:


> so because i cant read this very well is it moving in the right direction ?? lol sorry have to ask ...


Yes, it looks that way


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> The move will end April 21 but they can add HD channels anytime after that. In previous statement, they mentioned "new HD channels this April" and now they removed the "this April" from the website. Clear now ?


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> ....or an indication of loss of control...oh just slap me. :grin:


that we can be certain is not happening.


----------



## mike_augie

kk sixto thanks for what you and all the others on this site do , this makes this site awesome ... either way good or bad still a awesome work and many hours of efforts put into this site and ulls work



Sixto said:


> yes. as little as it can move.
> 
> will be a little more confident that it's actually moving when we see whole degrees of movement.
> 
> and these flakey TLE's aren't making me 100% sure yet. maybe soon.


----------



## curt8403

Rikinky said:


> The silence of Satelliteracer is disturbing at this point also.


Satelliteracer is a very busy person. IT does not bother me that he has not posted here


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

curt8403 said:


> Satelliteracer is a very busy person. IT does not bother me that he has not posted here


It'd make me feel better too if he said something to calm the doomsayers.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Rikinky said:


> The silence of Satelliteracer is disturbing at this point also.


I could give you a multitude of reasons why Satelliteracer hasn't posted, but it's far more important that you realize that one thing has nothing to do with another.


----------



## Sixto

This is somewhat funny, or more like root canal. 

Was expecting a change in orbit and a move of several degrees.

Instead we get an STA extension, weird TLE's (conflicting sites, duplicate timestamps), and a move of tenths of degrees, so hard to make a definitive analysis.

Think they're just playing with us!


----------



## Hdhead

Stuart Sweet said:


> I could give you a multitude of reasons why Satelliteracer hasn't posted, but it's far more important that you realize that one thing has nothing to do with another.


This thread is just a pile of riddles.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't mean to be unclear. Let me just say this...



Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Anything else you hear, anything else you read, anything else you _don't hear_ is secondary to that statement.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Sixto said:


> This is somewhat funny, or more like root canal.
> 
> Was expecting a change in orbit and a move of several degrees.
> 
> Instead we get an STA extension, weird TLE's (conflicting sites, duplicate timestamps), and a move of tenths of degrees, so hard to make a definitive analysis.
> 
> Think they're just playing with us!


Well, following that same reasoning(?) Directv 12 will probably be parked at 103 tomorrow:lol:
In a more serious vane, thank you Sixto, for all you do with this thread and others and..... Congrats on over 6,000 dbstalk posts


----------



## jilardi2

This is from

http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?norad=36131

Satellite Name: Directv 12
_*Status: moving*_ Position: 103 W
Norad: 36131
Cospar number: 2009-075A
Operator: DirecTV, Inc. 
Launch date: 2009-12-29
Launch site: Baikonur Cosmodrome
Launch vehicle: Proton M
Launch mass (kg): 6060
Dry mass (kg): 3556
Manufacturer: Boeing (Hughes)
Model (bus): BSS-702
Orbit: GEO
Expected lifetime: 15 yrs.
Call sign: S2797
Beacon(s): 18302.25 LHCP, 18302.75 LHCP
Details:
32 (+12) Ka-band transponders, 55 (+15) Ka-band Spot-Beam transponders to provide HDTV throughout North America
Beams:
Ka-band A1B1 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B3 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B5 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B7 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1B9 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1BB Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A1BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B1 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B3 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B5 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B7 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2B9 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BB Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A2BD Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B1 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B3 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B5 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B7 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3B9 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A3BB Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B1 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B2 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B3 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B4 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B5 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B6 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B7 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B8 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4B9 Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BA Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BB Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BC Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band A4BD Spot beam (predicted)
Ka-band North America Spot beam (predicted


----------



## Sixto

jilardi2 said:


> This is from
> 
> http://www.satbeams.com/
> 
> Satellite Name: Directv 12
> *Status: moving*Position: 103 W
> ...


It may be moving, but I'm not ready to officially declare victory until I see a couple of degrees. 

There were other reports last week that it was moving, and it wasn't.

Just waiting for slightly stronger proof (more then .04 degrees) ... we are the official source of D12 information, so just playing it safe.


----------



## trdrjeff

LameLefty said:


> You don't know that. It's just as likely that BSS testing took longer and/or in some way delayed Ka testing, thus necessitating the STA for additional time to complete it.


:goodjob:


----------



## mobandit

QuickDrop said:


> There can currently be noadequate analysis of this situation, let alone good or "tremendous" analysis, because of the simple fact that we do not have the adequate information for analysis. Jeremy W. is correct; people posting now are essentially prone to be positive or negative on the reasons for the further testing. There is absolutely no evidence or information to analyze other than the fact D* needed more time for testing. This could be bad; this could be meaningless; but we have no way of knowing until we get more facts.


Sorry, obviously my attempt at humor was lost...


----------



## Satelliteracer

Coca Cola Kid said:


> It'd make me feel better too if he said something to calm the doomsayers.


Nothing really to say guys. 99% of the stuff in this thread is so over my head (literally and figuratively) that I wouldn't want to comment anyway for fear of showing how little I know about it. 

And I actually consider myself to be a fairly technical person, at least compared to the general public, but most of you on this thread are junior Einstens...or George Jetson. 

As far as I know, steady as she goes....the channel movements have started in the 500's and will continue until around April 21st or so. We're definitely gearing up for a Festivus and hopefully that "soon" timeframe is very close as I'm sure all of you are very excited to see the new stuff.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Satelliteracer said:


> Nothing really to say guys. 99% of the stuff in this thread is so over my head (literally and figuratively) that I wouldn't want to comment anyway for fear of showing how little I know about it.
> 
> And I actually consider myself to be a fairly technical person, at least compared to the general public, but most of you on this thread are junior Einstens...or George Jetson.
> 
> As far as I know, steady as she goes....the channel movements have started in the 500's and will continue until around April 21st or so. We're definitely gearing up for a Festivus and hopefully that "soon" timeframe is very close as I'm sure all of you are very excited to see the new stuff.


Thanks Satelliteracer! "steady as she goes" works for me!


----------



## curt8403

Satelliteracer said:


> Nothing really to say guys. 99% of the stuff in this thread is so over my head (literally and figuratively) that I wouldn't want to comment anyway for fear of showing how little I know about it.
> 
> And I actually consider myself to be a fairly technical person, at least compared to the general public, but most of you on this thread are junior Einstens...or George Jetson.
> 
> As far as I know, steady as she goes....the channel movements have started in the 500's and will continue until around April 21st or so. We're definitely gearing up for a Festivus and hopefully that "soon" timeframe is very close as I'm sure all of you are very excited to see the new stuff.


and now we know, and can rest easy


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer said:


> Nothing really to say guys. 99% of the stuff in this thread is so over my head (literally and figuratively) that I wouldn't want to comment anyway for fear of showing how little I know about it.
> 
> And I actually consider myself to be a fairly technical person, at least compared to the general public, but most of you on this thread are junior Einstens...or George Jetson.
> 
> As far as I know, steady as she goes....the channel movements have started in the 500's and will continue until around April 21st or so. We're definitely gearing up for a Festivus and hopefully that "soon" timeframe is very close as I'm sure all of you are very excited to see the new stuff.


Thanks SR.


----------



## bakers12

OK, now. Everybody ... deep breaths.


----------



## curt8403

Do we need to preorder our Festivus Poles, or do we need to wait a week or two.


----------



## thelucky1

Satelliteracer said:


> Nothing really to say guys. 99% of the stuff in this thread is so over my head (literally and figuratively) that I wouldn't want to comment anyway for fear of showing how little I know about it.
> 
> And I actually consider myself to be a fairly technical person, at least compared to the general public, but most of you on this thread are junior Einstens...or George Jetson.
> 
> As far as I know, steady as she goes....the channel movements have started in the 500's and will continue until around April 21st or so. We're definitely gearing up for a Festivus and hopefully that "soon" timeframe is very close as I'm sure all of you are very excited to see the new stuff.


 *Originally Posted by Doug Brott
D12 is fine and will be on service as planned*

Thanks again Satracer, Doug Brott and Sixto for keeping this thread sane.
Patiently waiting for the arrival of D12 at 103.


----------



## Satelliteracer

curt8403 said:


> and now we know, and can rest easy


Things can always change, of course, that's the nature of the world, especially when dealing with a subject like rockets, satellites, etc, 23,000 miles above the earth. But as far as I know, steady as she goes.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer said:


> Things can always change, of course, that's the nature of the world, especially when dealing with a subject like rockets, satellites, etc, 23,000 miles above the earth. But as far as I know, steady as she goes.


Why did they remove the line about new HD channels launching in April from http://directv.com/channelchanges. Has Festivus been delayed til May?


----------



## 1948GG

A bit off-topic, but since D12 _was_ originally a ground spare, no replacement (or additional sats) have been ordered, unless I missed something.

Now, the additional BSS payload, once tested and technical hoops jumped through, may impact any additional orders (with new design and such).

I'll bet that as soon as the figures from that testing are in, that DirecTV could get a real good deal from Boeing on the construction of the next batch of Ka sats.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

curt8403 said:


> Do we need to preorder our Festivus Poles, or do we need to wait a week or two.


I'm leaving mine in the basement until the drift starts.


----------



## trdrjeff

Someone please post an article on the dangers of space junk so the hand-wringing can recommence...


----------



## curt8403

trdrjeff said:


> Someone please post an article on the dangers of space junk so the hand-wringing can recommence...


here is the article on the dangers of Space Junk

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/98jul/junk.htm


----------



## Rikinky

I made a statement on Directv's fanpage on Facebook about them removing "April" as the month the new HD Channels would begin to roll out and here is their response:
Direct Quote:
DIRECTV:the timing within this linked message has not changed. Thanks for confirming, and be sure to check back here for updates regarding new HD channel line-ups!


----------



## curt8403

Space is big, I mean you just won't beleive how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. You may think it is a long way to the Drugstore, but that is peanuts compared to space. 
Space is Infinite. any finite number divided by Infinite is so small as to be 0 therefore the odds of anything in space being hit by a finite amount of space junk is also 0. :hurah:


----------



## curt8403

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm leaving mine in the basement until the drift starts.


I thought the proper storage place for a Festivus pole was in a crawlspace


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> Space is big, I mean you just won't beleive how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. You may think it is a long way to the Drugstore, but that is peanuts compared to space.
> Space is Infinite. any finite number divided by Infinite is so small as to be 0 therefore the odds of anything in space being hit by a finite amount of space junk is also 0. :hurah:


Tell me about Iridium and russian satellite collision's odds.


----------



## paulh

good to hear positive stuff again. 

I was starting to wonder if D12 forgot to bring it's 3-D glasses :grin:


----------



## curt8403

curt8403 said:


> Space is big, I mean you just won't beleive how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. You may think it is a long way to the Drugstore, but that is peanuts compared to space.
> Space is Infinite. any finite number divided by Infinite is so small as to be 0 therefore the odds of anything in space being hit by a finite amount of space junk is also 0. :hurah:





P Smith said:


> Tell me about Iridium and russian satellite collision's odds.


clearly intended to be a joke.


----------



## P Smith

Now I get it.


----------



## P Smith

You could add to that pile a fact of 1440x1088i/4:3 SAR/29.97fps for dish HD channels.


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> You could add to that pile a fact of 1440x1088i/4:3 SAR/29.97fps for dish HD channels.


English?


----------



## Davenlr

P Smith said:


> You could add to that pile a fact of 1440x1088i/4:3 SAR/29.97fps for dish HD channels.


That beats our local PBS station... 1280x720/stretched 4:3/29.97fps...


----------



## Davenlr

DodgerKing said:


> English?


Original signal = 1920 x 1080
Dish signal = 1440 x 1088


----------



## P Smith

Davenlr said:


> That beats our local PBS station... 1280x720/stretched 4:3/29.97fps...


 Oh boy! It should be 59.94 fps ie "p" mode.


----------



## P Smith

Davenlr said:


> Original signal = 1920 x 1080
> Dish signal = 1440 x 1088


 And those 1088 is 1080 visible, actually.


----------



## DodgerKing

Davenlr said:


> Original signal = 1920 x 1080
> Dish signal = 1440 x 1088


OK... I just quickly read through these pages and didn't realize we were talking about Dish. I thought this was a thread about D12?


----------



## Davenlr

P Smith said:


> Oh boy! It should be 59.94 fps ie "p" mode.


Might be, but it looks like crap, so I dont watch it. I bought a KU dish, and receiver, and watch it from PBS National uplink center. I gotta have my Nova and Nature in HD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DodgerKing said:


> OK... I just quickly read through these pages and didn't realize we were talking about Dish. I thought this was a thread about D12?


It is...things need to get...

:backtotop


----------



## Tom Robertson

trdrjeff said:


> Someone please post an article on the dangers of space junk so the hand-wringing can recommence...


Space junk is much more of an issue in low earth orbit. At the GSO level, there aren't that many items to run into thankfully. All the big stuff gets parked up high and the little stuff doesn't go up that high.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Indiana627

Before Festivus can truly begin, we first need to have an airing of grievances ("I got a lot of problems with you people!"). Followed by the feats of strength ("Stop crying, and fight your father!"). 

What a great show...


----------



## Maleman

Sorry if this has been asked before but how much did this project cost?


----------



## slimoli

Maleman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before but how much did this project cost?


A lot !


----------



## Maleman

slimoli said:


> A lot !


I am no technical guy by any stretch but reading these posts I am concerned and wonder if any other satellite launch by any provider has failed?

Thats HUGE bucks.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Maleman said:


> I am no technical guy by any stretch but reading these posts I am concerned and wonder if any other satellite launch by any provider has failed?
> 
> Thats HUGE bucks.


You mean like this? Sea Launch Failure


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maleman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before but how much did this project cost?


Well...

Depends on how much you want to put into "this project".
The satellite is a couple hundred million, give or take.
Launching is "about a hundred (million) dollars." To misquote _Rainman._

Then there are the new facilities on the ground specifically for this satellite. I gots no idea, but think more millions. 

Then if you want to include the costs for the whole Ka satellites, dishes, receivers, facilities for all the HD-- multiply the above numbers by 5, add another factor of big bucks, etc.

Then there are the new BSS frequency costs...

Thankfully these costs are spread out over many years. R&D back 8 to 10 years or more. The first satellites 5 years ago. The installs at homes over 5 years so far and still going. And each satellite life is 12-15 years after launch.

So lots and lots of money. 

Oh and don't forget the fees for famous people in the ads... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ATARI

If you gotta ask, you can't afford it.


----------



## hyde76

Coca Cola Kid said:


> You mean like this? Sea Launch Failure


Perhaps you were thinking of something like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC-14


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> Thursday 8/14/2008 (31), Wednesday 11/14/2007 (30).
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=172899


I am not necessarily referring to how many channels, but the absolute bliztkreig they performed in the newspapers on the monday they launched Fox Business and a few other hd channels... That was the day they began to say they where the biggest HD provider there was... That had to be an all hands on deck.. Could you imagine saying you had all these channels, and then some of them don't light up that day like your ad said?


----------



## inkahauts

1948GG said:


> A bit off-topic, but since D12 _was_ originally a ground spare, no replacement (or additional sats) have been ordered, unless I missed something.
> 
> Now, the additional BSS payload, once tested and technical hoops jumped through, may impact any additional orders (with new design and such).
> 
> I'll bet that as soon as the figures from that testing are in, that DirecTV could get a real good deal from Boeing on the construction of the next batch of Ka sats.


I suspect we will see 5 or so sats commissioned this summer or fall.. Several BSS, and one or two KA and KU...

Obviously one BSS for each location they have to get one up at (no choice in the matter on that part), another D12 copycat for 99 degrees, and probably one of the older sats that may need to be replaced.... And maybe even one for 110 if they ever get that whole thing figured out....


----------



## Sixto

Back to 76.04°. Post#1.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Back to 76.04°. Post#1.


Steady as she goes?


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> Steady as she goes?


Yes, as they complete testing at 76°.


----------



## Talos4

Tom Robertson said:


> Space junk is much more of an issue in low earth orbit. At the GSO level, there aren't that many items to run into thankfully. All the big stuff gets parked up high and the little stuff doesn't go up that high.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom












Hmmm....


----------



## jilardi2

ff


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Yes, as they complete testing at 76°.


Good news...and onward she goes through the testing process and beyond...


----------



## barryb

Agreed. Very good news indeed.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Good news...





barryb said:


> Agreed. Very good news indeed.


Good news? There is no news, so I don't see how it could be good or bad.


----------



## slimoli

Jeremy W said:


> Good news? There is no news, so I don't see how it could be good or bad.


+1.


----------



## JeffBowser

:lol:



Jeremy W said:


> Good news? There is no news, so I don't see how it could be good or bad.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:



> Good news...and onward she goes through the testing process and beyond...


That sounds promising. It didn't take very long so it seems they have the info they were looking for. 

Mike


----------



## hancox

Jeremy W said:


> Good news? There is no news, so I don't see how it could be good or bad.


No (real) news *is* good news, as D* would be obligated to report bad news.


----------



## Jeremy W

hancox said:


> No (real) news *is* good news, as D* would be obligated to report bad news.


They're obligated to report bad news once they're sure it's bad news. If half of D12's transponders aren't working right now, but they've got some workarounds they're trying to fix them, they don't have to report anything unless those workarounds don't work. *I'm not saying that's the case*, just putting things in perspective.

Doug and Satelliteracer saying things are on schedule is good news. Sixto saying that the satellite is still at 76 is not good news, it's no news.


----------



## matt

I guess whoever was driving that thing fell asleep at the wheel.  Glad to see it is back within it's range again.


----------



## curt8403

maybe it was a "Let's see if the engine still turns over" thing


----------



## zudy

Jeremy W said:


> Good news? There is no news, so I don't see how it could be good or bad.


You are like a pin at a balloon party. Nice job.


----------



## curt8403

zudy said:


> You are like a pin at a balloon party. Nice job.


 balloon party? here is a balloon party :balloons: maybe we will have one when we find out that everything is ok with the D12.


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> And maybe even one for 110 if they ever get that whole thing figured out....


It's a shame that DirecTV can't slap a few KU transponders on the BSS satellite going to 111°... 

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

regarding when the D12 will be in it's final location, and sending a signal...


----------



## Jeremy W

zudy said:


> You are like a pin at a balloon party. Nice job.


I'd say I'm more like the weight that's tied to the balloons to keep them from floating away.


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> I'd say I'm more like the weight that's tied to the balloons to keep them from floating away.


just so long as we do not have another Balloon Boy Episode


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Well...
> 
> Depends on how much you want to put into "this project".
> The satellite is a couple hundred million, give or take.
> Launching is "about a hundred (million) dollars." To misquote _Rainman._
> 
> Then there are the new facilities on the ground specifically for this satellite. I gots no idea, but think more millions.
> 
> Then if you want to include the costs for the whole Ka satellites, dishes, receivers, facilities for all the HD-- multiply the above numbers by 5, add another factor of big bucks, etc.
> 
> Then there are the new BSS frequency costs...
> 
> Thankfully these costs are spread out over many years. R&D back 8 to 10 years or more. The first satellites 5 years ago. The installs at homes over 5 years so far and still going. And each satellite life is 12-15 years after launch.
> 
> So lots and lots of money.
> 
> Oh and don't forget the fees for famous people in the ads...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You left out legal fees for responding to Spectrum Five FCC filings.


----------



## wavemaster

Maleman said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before but how much did this project cost?


About 5 days revenue.


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> just so long as we do not have another Balloon Boy Episode


I wouldn't slap such names to members like Lord Vader, it will disturb Dark Forces !!! :eek2:


----------



## Lancelink

wavemaster said:


> About 5 days revenue.


A good estimate...or about 55 days cash flow to pay for the entire project based on 2009 earnings and a wag of $300 million project cost.

Man we _do_ like our television.


----------



## Lord Vader

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't slap such names to members like Lord Vader, it will disturb Dark Forces !!! :eek2:


Indeed


----------



## slimoli

Posted on Directv Twitter 1 hour ago in response to a question about the new satellite:

"The satellite that is enabling us to add new programming is nearly ready and we expect to have news on new prog soon. "


----------



## Lodi25

So what new HD channels are we getting?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Lodi25 said:


> So what new HD channels are we getting?


Satracer said last month:

"More premiums" (stuff in the 500's)
"More basic" (stuff in the 200's and 300's)
"More sports" (stuff in the 600's)
"More locals" (channels 2-69)


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> Posted on Directv Twitter 1 hour ago in response to a question about the new satellite:
> 
> "The satellite that is enabling us to add new programming is nearly ready and we expect to have news on new prog soon. "


Translation: "D12 is still being tested. you'll get more HD in about 6-8 weeks".


----------



## Stuart Sweet

In other words... see the last line of my signature


----------



## Doug Brott

Lodi25 said:


> So what new HD channels are we getting?


Twitter.com


DIRECTV said:


> The satellite that is enabling us to add new programming is nearly ready and *we expect to have news on new prog soon.*


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		03-23-2010 06:17:04
Orbit # at Epoch	92
Inclination		0.043
RA of A. Node		7.194
Eccentricity		0.0001955
Argument of Perigee	36.476
Revs per day		1.00269859
Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 795 km
Element number / age	120 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0551° W
Lat			0.0022° S
Alt (km)		35 794.130

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
120 03-23 06:17:04 35,779 x 35,795     16 + 9.28H 84.25D  76.06°W  0.02°S  0.04°
119 03-22 21:00:32 35,780 x 35,794     14 + 7.74H 83.86D  76.04°W  0.02°N  0.04°
118 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H 83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Lee L

Wow, DirecTV really has changed their view of the internet recently. Between the fact that employees can now post openly, the use of Twitter for actual info, the mods putting the info in their sigs** and Satracer even posted in this thread it is a good thing. Amazing what some communication can do to quell rumors.

Thumbs up from me.


** Not that I think the Mods are shills for DirecTV, but certainly in the past, I think you guys would have shied away from posting somethign so definitive based on what is most likely somewhat inside info given to you.


----------



## joed32

Lee L said:


> Wow, DirecTV really has changed their view of the internet recently. Between the fact that employees can now post openly, the use of Twitter for actual info, the mods putting the info in their sigs and Satracer even posted in this thread it is a good thing. Amazing what some communication can do to quell rumors.
> 
> Thumbs up from me.


Yes!


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Satracer said last month:
> 
> "More premiums" (stuff in the 500's)
> "More basic" (stuff in the 200's and 300's)
> "More sports" (stuff in the 600's)
> "More locals" (channels 2-69)


More Locals as in the missing Chicagoland ones?
also will Local non OTA channels go in the 2-69? 69-99?


----------



## bobnielsen

JoeTheDragon said:


> More Locals as in the missing Chicagoland ones?
> also will Local non OTA channels go in the 2-69? 69-99?


I don't expect there will be many non-OTA locals, although I certainly wouldn't mind if they added NWCN to the Seattle and Portland markets. Adding CW, MyNetwork and independents plus getting HD locals to the areas which currently don't have them is a much higher priority.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

JoeTheDragon said:


> More Locals as in the missing Chicagoland ones?
> also will Local non OTA channels go in the 2-69? 69-99?


70-99 are currently filled with infomercial channels. The MPEG-2 HD legacy channels are being removed on April 1 though per channel 99.


----------



## Satelliteracer

JoeTheDragon said:


> More Locals as in the missing Chicagoland ones?
> also will Local non OTA channels go in the 2-69? 69-99?


More local markets will be launched in 2010 was my intent there.


----------



## GregLee

bobnielsen said:


> Adding CW, MyNetwork and independents plus getting HD locals to the areas which currently don't have them is a much higher priority.


I hope that means getting HD NBC, CW, and MyNetwork to Honolulu is a priority. Or _at least_ the NBC HD local (KHNL).


----------



## carl6

bobnielsen said:


> I certainly wouldn't mind if they added NWCN to the Seattle and Portland markets.


That would be very nice (and Spokane and Boise markets also), but it simply isn't going to happen. They are way too much in bed with Comcast (hence the name NW *Cable* News).


----------



## JoeTheDragon

GregLee said:


> I hope that means getting HD NBC, CW, and MyNetwork to Honolulu is a priority. Or _at least_ the NBC HD local (KHNL).


I want WCIU HD, WPWR HD, and CLTV HD. Make CLTV #1 as I can get WCIU HD and WPWR HD on OTA.


----------



## Lodi25

AMC HD, LIFETIME HD, E! HD, MSNBC HD, and WGN America HD please! Then all be 100% happy with DirecTV.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

This is not the HD Anticipation thread or the HD locals thread. This thread is about D12. Lets get

:backtotop


----------



## joed32

Lodi25 said:


> AMC HD, LIFETIME HD, E! HD, MSNBC HD, and WGN America HD please! Then all be 100% happy with DirecTV.


You might be but not all.


----------



## Sixto

Update #121 (1:58am ET today) at 76.05°. Post#1.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

We need to see some drifting!

...or some word, or some filings, or anything :grin:

Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> We need to see some drifting!
> 
> ...or some word, or some filings, or anything :grin:
> 
> Mike


Drifting preferred. Filings, not so much.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> Drifting preferred. Filings, not so much.


I'm on board that [strike]train[/strike]...satellite. 

Mike


----------



## Hdhead

Let's smoke'em and get this party started.

http://www.topspeed.com/racing/drifting/index648.html


----------



## thelucky1

Question for Sixto - how accurate timewise are the TLEs? In other words when the TLE updates are released, are they very current as in real time, several hours old...?


----------



## Sixto

thelucky1 said:


> Question for Sixto - how accurate timewise are the TLEs? In other words when the TLE updates are released, are they very current as in real time, several hours old...?


The timestamp in the TLE is when the measurement was made.

Some good info:http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/​


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> The timestamp in the TLE is when the measurement was made.
> 
> Some good info:http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/​


Thank you!


----------



## adam1115

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed, Jeremy. One of my very reliable sources whom I never quote here--we have Satelliteracer here--has informed me of something rather bad with D12's situation. My friend won't get very specific, but his comments to me were exactly this:
> 
> "The situation ranges from a delay of a couple months to something you won't want to hear."
> 
> Hmmm...


Let your source know, all they need to do is tie into the main trunk line. BE CAREFUL not to get electrocuted. It will get the system online much faster...


----------



## JoeTheDragon

adam1115 said:


> Let your source know, all they need to do is tie into the main trunk line. BE CAREFUL not to get electrocuted. It will get the system online much faster...


But who does the mole work for E* or comcast?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I trust the source of my information... see the third line of my signature.


----------



## n3ntj

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		03-23-2010 06:17:04
> Orbit # at Epoch	92
> Inclination		0.043
> RA of A. Node		7.194
> Eccentricity		0.0001955
> Argument of Perigee	36.476
> Revs per day		1.00269859
> Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 795 km
> Element number / age	120 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			76.0551° W
> Lat			0.0022° S
> Alt (km)		35 794.130
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]Time GMT[/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u] Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 120 03-23 06:17:04 35,779 x 35,795     16 + 9.28H 84.25D  76.06°W  0.02°S  0.04°
> 119 03-22 21:00:32 35,780 x 35,794     14 + 7.74H 83.86D  76.04°W  0.02°N  0.04°
> 118 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 + 0.00H 83.54D  76.09°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 117 03-22 13:16:22 35,780 x 35,795     15 +51.47H 83.54D  76.08°W  0.01°S  0.05°
> 117 03-20 09:48:25 35,780 x 35,794     14 +14.10H 81.39D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.05°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


Based upon that info (still at 76 degs W), looks like we still have at least 2~3 weeks to go as I believe that is how long it takes to drift into the 103 deg slot. Did we ever have an actual date that D* planned on putting D12 live into service or was it always rather vague such as 'April or May'?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

n3ntj said:


> Based upon that info (still at 76 degs W), looks like we still have at least 2~3 weeks to go as I believe that is how long it takes to drift into the 103 deg slot. Did we ever have an actual date that D* planned on putting D12 live into service or was it always rather vague such as 'April or May'?


Vague, D* stopped committing to specific dates since they can never seem to keep their promises. I've never even heard them say April or May, just "soon".


----------



## slimoli

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Vague, D* stopped committing to specific dates since they can never seem to keep their promises. I've never even heard them say April or May, just "soon".


Yep, that's what we have been hearing : soon and capacity for 200.


----------



## bobnielsen

The problem with "estimates" is that some people hear "promises" instead. There are too many variables involved to come up with accurate dates weeks or months ahead of time.


----------



## Piratefan98

I noticed that in the newest Cable-DirecTV-Dish commercial (To Tell the Truth series), there is no mention of the capacity for 200 HD's. Instead, it says 130 full time HD channels. Maybe D12 has blown up, and we're stuck at 130?

National Enquirer Jeff


----------



## slimoli

Piratefan98 said:


> I noticed that in the newest Cable-DirecTV-Dish commercial (To Tell the Truth series), there is no mention of the capacity for 200 HD's. Instead, it says 130 full time HD channels. Maybe D12 has blown up, and we're stuck at 130?
> 
> National Enquirer Jeff


Dish is suing Directv for false advertising, maybe that's why they removed the "capacity for 200". I hate this "capacity" stuff, BTW.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:
 

> Dish is suing Directv for false advertising, maybe that's why they removed the "capacity for 200". I hate this "capacity" stuff, BTW.


There hasn't been an order from a judge yet though. Maybe they read this forum and got sick of our complaining. :lol:


----------



## Maleman

I am concerned  even though I know very little about this whole project.


----------



## curt8403

There seem to be a lot of rumors going around and people are afraid that D12 may have malfunctioned. I think that we would have heard by now if there was a problem that could not be fixed. Let us instead sing the Navy Hymn and change the last line of the first verse to
*For D12 in peril out in space*.


----------



## Maleman

curt8403 said:


> There seem to be a lot of rumors going around and people are afraid that D12 may have malfunctioned. I think that we would have heard by now if there was a problem that could not be fixed. Let us instead sing the Navy Hymn and change the last line of the first verse to
> *For D12 in peril out in space*.


 I guess I should think more positive-sorry. It would just be horrible if something has happened.


----------



## wmb

Maleman said:


> I am concerned  even though I know very little about this whole project.


My guess is that many people very knowledgeable about this project are concerned as well. They are focusing intently on it and pouring over all the data. However, thats their job, and I would be concerned if they weren't concerned.

I feel more like Christmas is coming and there is a big box under the tree with my name on it. I'm anxious to find out what's inside!!!

A little video entertainment while we wait...


----------



## Smthkd

curt8403 said:


> There seem to be a lot of rumors going around and people are afraid that D12 may have malfunctioned. I think that we would have heard by now if there was a problem that could not be fixed. Let us instead sing the Navy Hymn and change the last line of the first verse to
> *For D12 in peril out in space*.


 People feel this way because something similar happen with D10, or was it SW2, one of them. Directv had problems with some of the TPs and it got very quiet then next thing u know we hear the issue. I think putting test equipment like BSS onto a permenant Satellite you have big plans for is just rediculous. To big of a risk if you ask me.:nono2: ......*BUT!!!.....I trust Satelliteracer and the mods so Im not stressing*.


----------



## bjlc

holey moley.. I was gone for a week.. in that time.. D12 dies.. some one jump starts it and now its testing again.. 

is that about right? 

more hair has come out of my CPU screen then every before.. ( from the pulling thereof).. lives have changed.. people have come close to leaving D*. or the prediction that D* was washed up and headed for the toilet..

man.. and all this action.. and I thought that I was having fun in Disney World.. Let me say that Buzz Lightyear has nothing on this forum.. this is where the action is..

enlighten me if I am mistaken..


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> People feel this way because something similar happen with D10, or was it SW2, one of them.


It was an issue with some of the spotbeams that were meant to serve a specific geographic region. That's all.


----------



## loudo

Piratefan98 said:


> I noticed that in the newest Cable-DirecTV-Dish commercial (To Tell the Truth series), there is no mention of the capacity for 200 HD's. Instead, it says 130 full time HD channels. Maybe D12 has blown up, and we're stuck at 130?
> 
> National Enquirer Jeff


I think the basis for this commercial is current full time channels and not capacity, and the fact that DISH uses part time channels in their count.


----------



## DirectMan

LameLefty said:


> It was an issue with some of the spotbeams that were meant to serve a specific geographic region. That's all.


As another indicator that all is on schedule with D12, the SoCal HD spotbeam served area apparently has or will be expanded significantly. I was checking some zip codes for HD locals for a camping trip and in some areas where previously SoCal HD locals were not offered they are now offered. So perhaps SoCal was one of the areas where problems with the D10 spotbeams limited the served footprint and now will be expanded as a result of the replacement with D12 spotbeams.


----------



## Newshawk

adam1115 said:


> Let your source know, all they need to do is tie into the main trunk line. BE CAREFUL not to get electrocuted. It will get the system online much faster...


And please follow instruction precisely, if they don't want a Glock 26 in their face...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Stuart Sweet said:


> I trust the source of my information... see the third line of my signature.


Is your source someone at D* or just your personal opinion? Not trying to sound negative, just trying to put our minds at ease.


----------



## Lord Vader

The Force is neither "someone" nor an opinion. !Devil_lol


----------



## carl6

TheRatPatrol said:


> Is your source someone at D* or just your personal opinion? Not trying to sound negative, just trying to put our minds at ease.


The posts by sateliteracer should be more than sufficient to waylay any concerns. However, Stuart's source of information is considerably more than "just his personal opinion". In other words, we have in this thread one unsubstantiated rumor posted by one person versus multiple posts from reliable sources, yet people still want to believe the worst. You are welcome to believe what you want, but the facts are that D12 is on schedule, and there has been nothing official or verifiable to the contrary.


----------



## slimoli

carl6 said:


> The posts by sateliteracer should be more than sufficient to waylay any concerns. However, Stuart's source of information is considerably more than "just his personal opinion". In other words, we have in this thread one unsubstantiated rumor posted by one person versus multiple posts from reliable sources, yet people still want to believe the worst. You are welcome to believe what you want, but the facts are that D12 is on schedule, and there has been nothing official or verifiable to the contrary.


The only real fact so far is the 30 days extension, everything else is either opinion or speculation, both from those who want to believe the worst and the fanboys who would never accept any opinion that can challenge Directv. 
We also know that Directv removed the "this April" when mentioning the new HD coming in their website.


----------



## matt

I hope we hear something soon. Not because I am worried, I think D12 is fine. I am just tired of reading the rehashed posted about believing what I want and that their is no proof either way and all that.

I keep hoping I will open this to find a number other than 76 for all the ones out there that are thinking about telling me to quit opening the thread if I don't want to read it.


----------



## Sixto

For April "live", would assume that D12 needs to start the Drift in the next 3-7 days. 

Gotta figure it needs at least 7-10 days at 103°, and assuming 21 days for the Drift.

D11 went "live" about 10-14 days after parking. There was a few day gap in TLE's so don't know the exact D11 park date, but there was a TLE from the test location on 7/15/2008, then a TLE from the final parked location (only a few degrees away) on 7/21/2008, and D11 went "live" on 7/31/2008.


----------



## cariera

Sixto said:


> For April "live", would assume that D12 needs to start the Drift in the next 3-7 days.
> 
> Gotta figure it needs at least 7-10 days at 103°, and assuming 21 days for the Drift.


This would just about sync up with the completion of the channel assignment changes on 4/22/10.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6720003

Keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## ATARI

Time to kick the tires and light the fires!


----------



## stephenC

cariera said:


> This would just about sync up with the completion of the channel assignment changes on 4/22/10.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6720003
> 
> Keeping my fingers crossed.


2010 April 22 is Earth Day.


----------



## curt8403

stephenC said:


> 2010 April 22 is Earth Day.


 probably a coincidence. 
Is there a Mars Day?


----------



## stephenC

curt8403 said:


> probably a coincidence.
> Is there a Mars Day?


Yes, there is.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/marsday/


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I'm pretty sure D12 is not going to Mars. :grin:

I'm hopin' it'll start drifting soon.

Mike


----------



## curt8403

MicroBeta said:


> I'm pretty sure D12 is not going to Mars. :grin:
> 
> I'm hopin' it'll start drifting soon.
> 
> Mike


Me too, there is no one on Mars to watch HD


----------



## jefbal99

Two TLEs labeled 122



Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10084.09084422 -.00000260  00000-0  99999-4 0  1223
2 36131 000.0272 323.5909 0001395 088.1955 087.2895 01.00272769   948
1 36131U 09075A   10 83.41581356  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0  1222
2 36131 000.0251 308.4775 0001507 104.8744 202.0439 01.00266565   932


----------



## oldcrooner

curt8403 said:


> Me too, there is no one on Mars to watch HD


I wouldn't be too sure of that.....


----------



## jilardi2

curt8403 said:


> Me too, there is no one on Mars to watch HD


Maybe they took control of D12 because they want the capacity to have over 75 new HD channels.


----------



## curt8403

jilardi2 said:


> Maybe they took control of D12 because they want the capacity to have over 75 new HD channels.


 so, the martians want to watch all those Mars movies in HD?


----------



## Civrock

curt8403 said:


> so, the martians want to watch all those Mars movies in HD?


75 new HD PPV channels running 'Mars Attacks!' 24/7.


----------



## Rikinky

No just SCYFY in HD


----------



## curt8403

Civrock said:


> 75 new HD PPV channels running 'Mars Attacks!' 24/7.


 you said it, not me. I was thinking "War of the Worlds" and "Red Planet" as well


----------



## jilardi2

curt8403 said:


> so, the martians want to watch all those Mars movies in HD?


Ghosts of Mars was not released on mars yet. they have to wait 30 years from the release date to rent it from red planet box.

But they saw it was on a premium movie channel on earth.


----------



## curt8403

this has all been very entertaining, but 
lets get 
:backtotop


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

A watched pot never boils.

Let's just let Sixto do his thing for a while and check in to read what he says every couple of days.


----------



## matt

wilbur_the_goose said:


> A watched pot never boils.
> 
> Let's just let Sixto do his thing for a while and check in to read what he says every couple of days.


Never leave the stove unattended when cooking!


----------



## dcowboy7

wilbur_the_goose said:


> A watched pot never boils.





matt1124 said:


> Never leave the stove unattended when cooking!


Good 1. :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

Never cook bacon in the nude.


----------



## matt

Lord Vader said:


> Never cook bacon in the nude.


I have tried it and it hurts. :nono:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

We obviously need an updated Sixto report in the worst way right about now.


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We obviously need an updated Sixto report in the worst way right about now.


 +1, and Sixto will be along soon (I hope)


----------



## Doug Brott

Guys .. Mars and Pots .. not a good combination for a thread about a new Satellite. Let's get this back to some semblance of a topic please. If it's not about the new sat .. it doesn't go here.

Thanks.


----------



## valleyhusker

Is this info on the website n2yo.com accurate? It says it is "real time"

Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:13:35 GMT
Latitude: 0°
Longitude: -76.08°
Right Ascension: 3h 40m 16s
Declination: -6° 17' 4''
Azimuth: 127.39°
Elevation: +35.67°
Altitude [km]: 35781.34
Altitude [miles]: 22233.49
Speed [km/s]: 0
Speed [miles/s]: 0
Eclipsed? NO


----------



## Civrock

That's an interesting site. Live real time tracking?!

DIRECTV 12: http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


----------



## matt

Civrock said:


> That's an interesting site. Live real time tracking?!
> 
> DIRECTV 12: http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


Not sure if I trust that site. It says my IP is on the east coast and I am in Oklahoma... If it can't track me, I am not sure if it can track something flying through space.


----------



## Civrock

matt1124 said:


> Not sure if I trust that site. It says my IP is on the east coast and I am in Oklahoma... If it can't track me, I am not sure if it can track something flying through space.


It got mine right, not sure why it'd resolve yours incorrectly unless there are other factors involved.


----------



## jilardi2

Doug Brott said:


> Guys .. Mars and Pots .. not a good combination for a thread about a new Satellite. Let's get this back to some semblance of a topic please. If it's not about the new sat .. it doesn't go here.
> 
> Thanks.


not a good satellite for the thread


----------



## valleyhusker

matt1124 said:


> Not sure if I trust that site. It says my IP is on the east coast and I am in Oklahoma... If it can't track me, I am not sure if it can track something flying through space.


It got my location correct.


----------



## curt8403

valleyhusker said:


> It got my location correct.


 it does not know where I am, which is good because
I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.


----------



## Jeremy W

Civrock said:


> That's an interesting site. Live real time tracking?!


No. It extrapolates the current position of the satellite based on the latest TLE. The tracking is not live, delayed, or anything aside from an estimate.


----------



## valleyhusker

Jeremy W said:


> No. It extrapolates the current position of the satellite based on the latest TLE. The tracking is not live, delayed, or anything aside from an estimate.


But I would think it is a better alternative than waiting for the TLE to be posted on this forum.


----------



## leww37334

Civrock said:


> 75 new HD PPV channels running 'Mars Attacks!' 24/7.


now that's funny.


----------



## Jeremy W

valleyhusker said:


> But I would think it is a better alternative than waiting for the TLE to be posted on this forum.


It depends. It's entirely possible that the satellite started moving right after the TLE was posted, in which case n2yo will be completely inaccurate until the next TLE is posted. So it's fairly useless in this situation.


----------



## hyde76

curt8403 said:


> it does not know where I am, which is good because
> I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.


Mischief Managed... [tap]


----------



## doctor j

valleyhusker said:


> But I would think it is a better alternative than waiting for the TLE to be posted on this forum.


They are often one or two TLE's behind.

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

At this moment space-track.org which is one of the main sources Sixto and others use has 2 more recent TLE's than the one n2yo.com is using for "real time tracking".

Site is good for stable orbiting bodies but when things get "moving" it will be behind.

Doctor j


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I'm confused, did D12 start drifting to 103 yet or not?


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> No. It extrapolates the current position of the satellite based on the latest TLE. The tracking is not live, delayed, or anything aside from an estimate.


As we've stated several times )), Jeremy is correct concerning n2yo.

I used to have a link in the header explaining that n2yo was not real-time but removed it because it was causing more confusion then anything else.


----------



## Sixto

valleyhusker said:


> But I would think it is a better alternative than waiting for the TLE to be posted on this forum.


The TLE used by n2yo is usually older, but it all depends on how quickly I update post#1.

Also, the beginning of the Drift will be very obvious exactly at receipt of the TLE.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I'm confused, did D12 start drifting to 103 yet or not?


No.


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> No.


Damn too long..Shirley I hope its nothing serious :icon_lol:


----------



## BEP1030

Lord Vader said:


> Never cook bacon in the nude.


Thanks for the warning.:lol:


----------



## P Smith

Comedy Club.

Near D12.


----------



## Laker44

matt1124 said:


> Not sure if I trust that site. It says my IP is on the east coast and I am in Oklahoma... If it can't track me, I am not sure if it can track something flying through space.


That properly is where your IP is routing you from. I live in Ohio and sometimes mine is routed from Texas.


----------



## Fog627

matt1124 said:


> Not sure if I trust that site. It says my IP is on the east coast and I am in Oklahoma... If it can't track me, I am not sure if it can track something flying through space.


Maybe if you were from _Norman_ it would recognize you!!  (Sorry, folks...an insider.)

And now for for our music interlude...how about "Blue Moon" by _The Drifters_ or "_Recovering the Satellite_" by Counting Crows? _Telstar_?? :listening:


----------



## Sixto

As of 10pm ET last night (newest update), continuing the testing at 76°.


----------



## Rikinky

Ugh! This is getting quit annoying to say the least. I am going on vacation for a week im debating on rather or not to take my Laptop. I think I might leave it home so when I get back I might actually be suprised by this thing moving? Just a thought?


----------



## ATARI

Rikinky said:


> Ugh! This is getting quit annoying to say the least. I am going on vacation for a week im debating on rather or not to take my Laptop. I think I might leave it home so when I get back I might actually be suprised by this thing moving? Just a thought?


Leaving for vacation this weekend myself. Not taking a laptop. Hope when I get back that the thread title has changed to 'Drifting to 103'.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> As of 10pm ET last night (newest update), continuing the testing at 76°.


I'm now thinking a Monday move start...


----------



## Hdhead

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm now thinking a Monday move start...


Why?


----------



## Rikinky

I'm thinking more of this from D* and the "Soon" promises!!!reach::


----------



## njblackberry

Ugh - why do you need to know that it is or is not moving? Go on vacation. D-12 will still be somewhere - not broadcasting to you - when you return....


----------



## sarhaynes

It appears that waiting for a satellite to drift is sort of like watching grass grow... It will start working when it starts working. I like the idea of having new channels to watch, but I'm not going to stop living until it happens. What I'm really interested in is new LiL feeds. I live in the 4% (or whatever the number is) of the country that D* does not currently have any LiL coverage. Until then, I just have to watch channels in SD and locals OTA.


----------



## jilardi2

sarhaynes said:


> It appears that waiting for a satellite to drift is sort of like watching grass grow... It will start working when it starts working. I like the idea of having new channels to watch, but I'm not going to stop living until it happens. What I'm really interested in is new LiL feeds. I live in the 4% (or whatever the number is) of the country that D* does not currently have any LiL coverage. Until then, I just have to watch channels in SD and locals OTA.


I'm at work and we have websense and this is one of a handful of non work realted websites that i can go to.

So all i can really do is watch the sat do nothing. And obsess over this post.


----------



## matt

jilardi2 said:


> I'm at work and we have websense and this is one of a handful of non work realted websites that i can go to.
> 
> So all i can really do is watch the sat do nothing. And obsess over this post.


We had websense when I was in high school years ago. Just set up your browser to use a proxy server and you are set. When you get home, find a list of anonymous proxy servers and take it to work with you


----------



## Lord Vader

ATARI said:


> Leaving for vacation this weekend myself. Not taking a laptop. Hope when I get back that the thread title has changed to 'Drifting to 103'.


You're actually going on vacation while this thing may drift?!? How ill-advised of you! Cancel your vacation, stay home, don't go to work, and stay glued to this forum until D12 begins its move! Nothing is more important than finding out if D12 begins it drifting, because...well... Some here really do need to get a life. After all, what difference does it make to any of us at this moment if it starts to move today, tomorrow, or Monday?


----------



## jilardi2

matt1124 said:


> We had websense when I was in high school years ago. Just set up your browser to use a proxy server and you are set. When you get home, find a list of anonymous proxy servers and take it to work with you


it finds and blocks them so fast its crazy.

no proxies whatsoever anytime. and no privliages to change anything in IE8

it grows like a living being, websense will probably have something to do in 2012 with the end of the world.

i hope it doesn't know i talking about it.


----------



## matt

jilardi2 said:


> it finds and blocks them so fast its crazy.
> 
> no proxies whatsoever anytime. and no privliages to change anything in IE8
> 
> it grows like a living being, websense will probably have something to do in 2012 with the end of the world.
> 
> i hope it doesn't know i talking about it.


It has changed a lot in 8 years I guess. Oh well, back to topic...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hdhead said:


> Why?


Because the probability of doing it over the weekend would seem to be lower based on how D10 and D11 were done.

It's possible they may start moving D12 any time now...but Monday just seems more likely...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


----------



## curt8403

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


or if we really really think hard, maybe we can convince ourselves that it is moving.


----------



## trdrjeff

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


^ Yeah That ^


----------



## joshjr

sarhaynes said:


> It appears that waiting for a satellite to drift is sort of like watching grass grow... It will start working when it starts working. I like the idea of having new channels to watch, but I'm not going to stop living until it happens. What I'm really interested in is new LiL feeds. I live in the 4% (or whatever the number is) of the country that D* does not currently have any LiL coverage. Until then, I just have to watch channels in SD and locals OTA.


Im in that same boat. I did get confirmation from my Senator's office this week that my DMA is one that D* is set to launch this year. That is music to my ears.


----------



## paulh

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


If we got Anton Ohno to skate to the Wast on an ice cap, the earth's rotation would speed up and D12 drifts..

.. course so would D10, D11, S1.....


----------



## n3ntj

joshjr said:


> Im in that same boat. I did get confirmation from my Senator's office this week that my DMA is one that D* is set to launch this year. That is music to my ears.


:lol:


----------



## Indiana627

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


Is that a hint that you know it's about to start drifting?


----------



## raoul5788

Indiana627 said:


> Is that a hint that you know it's about to start drifting?


That's what I was thinking, but I didn't want to post it and jinx it. You did it for me!


----------



## Indiana627

As he says, "The Shadow Knows."


----------



## curt8403

Indiana627 said:


> As he says, "The Shadow Knows."


 and based on the picture, I would say Doh.


----------



## hdgreg

Lord Vader said:


> You're actually going on vacation while this thing may drift?!? How ill-advised of you! Cancel your vacation, stay home, don't go to work, and stay glued to this forum until D12 begins its move! Nothing is more important than finding out if D12 begins it drifting, because...well... Some here really do need to get a life. After all, what difference does it make to any of us at this moment if it starts to move today, tomorrow, or Monday?


I AM on vacation!...and using my laptop to find out...."nothing"...tomorrow I will use the cruise liner's slow internet...to find out "something" at $.50 per minute! :nono:


----------



## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


Strong with the Force you are not.


----------



## Hdhead

hdgreg said:


> I AM on vacation!...and using my laptop to find out...."nothing"...tomorrow I will use the cruise liner's slow internet...to find out "something" at $.50 per minute! :nono:


Only one thing is for sure...your cruise ship will be drifting farther and faster than D12 will be this weekend.


----------



## mike_augie

Stuart Sweet said:


> I bet if we all think real hard we can move DIRECTV12 with our minds.


aawww brings back the good old days when earl and tibber (tom)and jason and maybe even u all got banned .. we was all freaking out .. and toms riddles .. man along with the Santa release those was the days .... move the sat , move that sat , i am a medic maybe I can give it a shot of adrenaline and she will get going ... lol


----------



## wmb

Lord Vader said:


> Strong with the Force you are not.


Rather Yoda-esque quote for a dark sider.


----------



## Lord Vader

We kicked his little, green @ss.


----------



## curt8403

mike_augie said:


> aawww brings back the good old days when earl and tibber (tom)and jason and maybe even u all got banned .. we was all freaking out .. and toms riddles .. man along with the Santa release those was the days .... move the sat , move that sat , i am a medic maybe I can give it a shot of adrenaline and she will get going ... lol


 I remember that, there were all kinds of users that got banned.
April 1st as I recall


----------



## Sixto

3am ET update (#125) at 76.04°.


----------



## P Smith

sixto said:


> 3am et update (#125) at 76.04°.


omg !!! Going backwards !!! from 76.09°


----------



## FHSPSU67

curt8403 said:


> I remember that, there were all kinds of users that got banned.
> April 1st as I recall


I remember that, too. I was a relative newbie, and logged in later in the day. I also can remember thinking " What the H*ll have I gotten myself into!".To be sure, it was wacky


----------



## ctaranto

P Smith said:


> omg !!! Going backwards !!! from 76.09°


It's taking the scenic route.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> omg !!! Going backwards !!! from 76.09°





ctaranto said:


> It's taking the scenic route.


No, it's "station keeping" (meaning it wobbles around a bit because Earth is not a perfect, homogenous sphere and the orbit is never perfectly circular).


----------



## usnret

Does it have any Toyota parts (i.e. maybe the brakes are faulty?)


----------



## loudo

usnret said:


> Does it have any Toyota parts (i.e. maybe the brakes are faulty?)


We know it wasn't the gas pedal that stuck.:lol:


----------



## Sixto

6am ET this morning (#126) at 76.05°.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> 6am ET this morning (#126) at 76.05°.


Steady as she goes.


----------



## slimoli

TheRatPatrol said:


> Steady as she goes.


Too much "steady" for my taste.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> No, it's "station keeping" (meaning it wobbles around a bit because Earth is not a perfect, homogenous sphere and the orbit is never perfectly circular).


Orbital eccentricity, is that right?


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

smiddy said:


> Orbital eccentricity, is that right?


Or in your case Ogretal eccentricity:sure:


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Orbital eccentricity, is that right?


Don't forget to count not 0 inclination, what adding a mile or more to the "8" movements.


----------



## Sixto

For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.

"Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


----------



## jleupen

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Perfect! Thanks Sixto!


----------



## jackten

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.


Ty Sixto. You Rock.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Awesome! I just ask that at least "SixtoReport: Notification Thread" remain in the title, because I just setup Outlook to not dump those e-mails in with the regular forum replies.


----------



## reweiss

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Thank you Sixto. This will help me cut down on weeding through a ton of "replies" of people predicting doom based on no facts or actions whatsoever.


----------



## davring

Thank you Sixto.


----------



## GLJones

IT'S MOVING...IT'S MOVING...uh..sorry..that is me..too much to drink. Drunk astronomy is not recommended.

I wish it would start moving. I can't wait for 75 new HD shopping channels!


----------



## slimoli

GLJones said:


> IT'S MOVING...IT'S MOVING...uh..sorry..that is me..too much to drink. Drunk astronomy is not recommended.
> 
> I wish it would start moving. I can't wait for 75 new HD shopping channels!


Not funny at all, man.


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Great idea! Many thanks Sixto!


----------



## wmb

GLJones said:


> IT'S MOVING...IT'S MOVING...uh..sorry..that is me..too much to drink. Drunk astronomy is not recommended.
> 
> I wish it would start moving. I can't wait for 75 new HD shopping channels!


Well, in truth, it is moving. It has a velocity and is accelerating towards earth.

Sometimes I think a drink helps the differential equation go down.


----------



## ATARI

It's all relative.


----------



## ctaranto

LameLefty said:


> No, it's "station keeping" (meaning it wobbles around a bit because Earth is not a perfect, homogenous sphere and the orbit is never perfectly circular).


<sigh>All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy</sigh>


----------



## JLucPicard

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:


Fantastic! Thank you, Sixto!


----------



## Sixto

Was checking out Echostar 14 which launched last Saturday, to be tested at 138.5°, and final at 119°.

As of today, it's at 35,760km x 35,787km, 139.3°, .07 inclination. That was quick. 

Back to D12.


----------



## Sackchamp56

Sixto said:


> Was checking out Echostar 14 which launched last Saturday, to be tested at 138.5°, and final at 119°.
> 
> As of today, it's at 35,760km x 35,787km, 139.3°, .07 inclination. That was quick.
> 
> Back to D12.


wow i wonder how much fuel they used to make that happen? Looks like they want to have a quick answer to D12.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sackchamp56 said:


> wow i wonder how much fuel they used to make that happen? Looks like they want to have a quick answer to D12.


It is not going to be used to add more HD channels. It is mainly going to be used to replace, locals, and balance


----------



## Rikinky

Imagine that I wouldn't be suprised if E*'S Satellite is functional before D12.


----------



## DodgerKing

Rikinky said:


> Imagine that I wouldn't be suprised if E*'S Satellite is functional before D12.


At what costs? There is doing something quickly and there is doing something correctly. This is also evidenced by how each company transmits their HD (Dish downrez's) and utilizes their RSNs. I rather have it done correctly.

Again, you guys need to realize that E14 is not going to be used to expand their HD channels.


----------



## longrider

I understand that the are not doing it to beat D12, but it is still surprising that they would use that much fuel getting it in position that quick, probably taking years off its end of life


----------



## JeffBowser

Ah! Nice. I was getting very weary of the endless juvenile sci-fi references that have polluted this thread for pages.



Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


----------



## Sackchamp56

DodgerKing said:


> It is not going to be used to add more HD channels. It is mainly going to be used to replace, locals, and balance


Oh ok... I didnt realize that.


----------



## Groundhog45

Thanks for the dedicated notification thread, Sixto. Great idea to keep things on topic.


----------



## P Smith

longrider said:


> I understand that the are not doing it to beat D12, but it is still surprising that they would use that much fuel getting it in position that quick, probably taking years off its end of life


Can't pass it without kicking in a butt ?  
The launch bring heaviest payload to GTO, so they're provisioned enough propellant to deliver the sat to testing slot, no need to grinding your teeth.


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> Was checking out Echostar 14 which launched last Saturday, to be tested at 138.5°, and final at 119°.
> 
> As of today, it's at 35,760km x 35,787km, 139.3°, .07 inclination. That was quick.
> 
> Back to D12.


E14 will have to drift in the opposite direction than D12? Maybe the rocket scientist here could figure out if it is easier/faster to get to 193 than 76 from Baikonur.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sackchamp56 said:


> Oh ok... I didnt realize that.


Don't get me wrong, that does not mean that Dish will not be adding more HD. In fact, they will be adding a bunch more, some will be going on E14. They will be adding it regardless of E14. E14 is mainly used to provide HD to those that currently cannot get some of it, expand locals, and balance their arcs. If E14 fell out of the sky, all of their future HD expansion will still be going on. The same cannot necessarily be said about D12.


----------



## R0am3r

D12 isn't moving because my H23s are not updated yet. Obviously, they don't want to move it until my receivers are ready. Probably a software glitch... Sounds reasonable, right?

Based on most of the posts lately, the software excuse must be insane reason #47 for D12 hanging out at 76 degrees. :lol:


----------



## HerntDawg

Will D12 affect my HD viewing of the NFL for the Two thousand and ten season?

If so, please let me know.


----------



## Todd H

R0am3r said:


> D12 isn't moving because my H23s are not updated yet. Obviously, they don't want to move it until my receivers are ready. Probably a software glitch... Sounds reasonable, right?
> 
> Based on most of the posts lately, the software excuse must be insane reason #47 for D12 hanging out at 76 degrees. :lol:


Well dangit man! Force a firmware update so we can get this ball rolling! :lol:


----------



## loudo

Rikinky said:


> Imagine that I wouldn't be suprised if E*'S Satellite is functional before D12.


If it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the life expectancy of it is shorter than D12.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Thanks! This thread is too noisy.


----------



## DodgerKing

Looks like E12 took 1 week to get to testing location, probably take 1 to 2 days to get into final location.

D12 on the other hands is still sitting in its testing spot for a few weeks.

Seriously, why such a big difference in time?


----------



## Doug Brott

DodgerKing said:


> Looks like E12 took 1 week to get to testing location, 1 to 2 days to get into final location, and will probably be active in a few days.
> 
> D12 on the other hands is still sitting in its testing spot for a few weeks.
> 
> Seriously, why such a big difference in time?


Isn't D12 doing some significant testing? Perhaps E12 was never slated for that. Either way, D12 is still on schedule. Nothing has changed from my perspective.


----------



## Maleman

Doug Brott said:


> Isn't D12 doing some significant testing? Perhaps E12 was never slated for that. Either way, D12 is still on schedule. Nothing has changed from my perspective.


OMG I hope your sooooo right. I am concerned. Moreso now then last week. Granted, as I mentioned before, my only information is through this thread.


----------



## LameLefty

loudo said:


> If it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the life expectancy of it is shorter than D12.





DodgerKing said:


> Seriously, why such a big difference in time?


Read loudo's post above yours. Any launch vehicle can only toss so much mass into any particular orbit. Either the satellite is much less massive than D12, or it's got a larger percentage of internal fuel that E* is willing to expend to make the orbital adjustments more quickly.


----------



## RAD

LameLefty said:


> Read loudo's post above yours. Any launch vehicle can only toss so much mass into any particular orbit. Either the satellite is much less massive than D12, or it's got a larger percentage of internal fuel that E* is willing to expend to make the orbital adjustments more quickly.


IIRC I saw a press release that said that E14 was the heaviest payload launched to date on the Proton/Breeze.

Update, wasn't a press release, from http://spaceflightnow.com/proton/echostar14/

_"The spacecraft weighed 14,074 pounds at launch, near the peak capacity of the heavy-lift Proton rocket and the Breeze M upper stage.

International Launch Services officials say upgrades by Russian rocket-builder Khrunichev have increased the Proton's lift capabilities, allowing heavier satellites like EchoStar 14 to be launched by the booster. EchoStar 14 is the heaviest commercial satellite ever launched on a Proton rocket."_


----------



## TBlazer07

RAD said:


> IIRC I saw a press release (can't find it now) that said that E14 was the heaviest payload launched to date on the Proton/Breeze.


http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?number=402167731
The satellite, weighing more than 6.3 metric tons, is the heaviest satellite launched on ILS Proton to date.

http://spaceflightnow.com/proton/echostar14/


----------



## LameLefty

dpeters11 said:


> Separated mass 6379kg according to ILS.


Now, how much of that mass is propellant, and how much had to be expended since launch?

Again, the math is pretty straightforward, folks.


----------



## P Smith

loudo said:


> If it is, I wouldn't be surprised if the life expectancy of it is shorter than D12.


Look above - post#4265.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Look above - post#4265.


That's not an answer.

For the third time this morning, it's all a trade. More fuel now means less later. It's just that simple.


----------



## loudo

LameLefty said:


> That's not an answer.
> 
> For the third time this morning, it's all a trade. More fuel now means less later. It's just that simple.


My point also.


----------



## P Smith

Don't want accept facts about heaviest payload of the E14 ? Wouldn't that load defined by additional propellant for fast maneuvering? Why need to create that impression of short life without bringing all aspects of the launch and satellite build ? 
Perhaps you could give it own life, don't need to be so harsh.


----------



## Smthkd

Okay it seems like this thread is starting to sound like a E14 thread more than a D12. Lets get back on track now. Any predictions as to when D12 will start its final movement?


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> Okay it seems like this thread is starting to sound like a E14 thread more than a D12. Lets get back on track now. Any predictions as to when D12 will start its final movement?


Needs to be soon for April.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Don't want accept facts about heaviest payload of the E14 ? Wouldn't that load defined by additional propellant for fast maneuvering? Why need to create that impression of short life without bringing all aspects of the launch and satellite build ?
> Perhaps you could give it own life, don't need to be so harsh.


Translate that into English, please.


----------



## VeniceDre

Smthkd said:


> Any predictions as to when D12 will start its final movement?


By the end of the week.

:scratchin


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> Needs to be soon for April.


What's the latest it can be and still make the end of April?

Mike


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

MicroBeta said:


> What's the latest it can be and still make the end of April?
> 
> Mike


Sixto said drift time would be about three weeks, and I'd add a week to account for setup and switching, so I'd say a conservative estimate would be about 2 April to start drifting for a 30 April broadcast light-up.


----------



## Sixto

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Sixto said drift time would be about three weeks, and I'd add a week to account for setup and switching, so I'd say a conservative estimate would be about 2 April to start drifting for a 30 April broadcast light-up.


Assuming a target of the last Wednesday, and assuming that they haven't decided to speed up the drift, it needs to get moving in the next few days.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Sixto said:


> Assuming a target of the last Wednesday, and assuming that they haven't decided to speed up the drift, it needs to get moving in the next few days.


You're a regular Howard Wolowitz :grin:


----------



## mechman

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Thank you Sixto. Much better than the clutter!


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Assuming a target of the last Wednesday, and assuming that they haven't decided to speed up the drift, it needs to get moving in the next few days.


There is nothing they have ever done in the past that makes me think they would move the satellite faster to meet some arbitrary date. I think somebody in the D* control room went to the Tortoise school of project management. Slow and steady wins the race.

This is just one of those times when are best indication of when something is going to happen will likely be the day after it did.


----------



## inkahauts

DodgerKing said:


> Don't get me wrong, that does not mean that Dish will not be adding more HD. In fact, they will be adding a bunch more, some will be going on E14. They will be adding it regardless of E14. E14 is mainly used to provide HD to those that currently cannot get some of it, expand locals, and balance their arcs. If E14 fell out of the sky, all of their future HD expansion will still be going on. The same cannot necessarily be said about D12.


I completely disagree with that statement... There is no reason that if D12 had an issue, they couldn't load many locals from both D10 and D11 to the spaceways, and then instead of utilizing all the spots on D10, and D11 they could re task it and use more Conus transponders instead, and that would allow them to still launch many more stations nationally in HD... I am not sure how the bandwidth plays out, but they have 4 additional unused transponders on each sat (we have seen 2 used on D10 for a short time) which would equate to 40 additional channels immediately available if they would use all 8 spares between the 2 sats till they got another new bird up... Enough to launch plenty more HD conus channels.... And that isn't even mentioning the fact they could also rebalanced some other things in their sat fleet and get some hd coming from 101...

I Still believe they have delayed launching some markets till they get D12 up and running, in case this scenario had to be played out... once they get D12 in place, I suspect we will see quite a few more locals go up...


----------



## RAD

What's to say that they might not also go to 6 HD channels per Ka transponder if D12 has a problem?


----------



## P Smith

RAD said:


> What's to say that they might not also go to 6 HD channels per Ka transponder if D12 has a problem?


That would bring 1280x1080 back.


----------



## slimoli

P Smith said:


> That would bring 1280x1080 back.


and at least one customer to Dish


----------



## DodgerKing

slimoli said:


> and at least one customer to Dish


:lol:

You would go to a provider that already downrezzes their channels because another provider may do the same to a lesser extent? I have to question that logic


----------



## P Smith

slimoli said:


> and at least one customer to Dish


To 1440x1080 ?


----------



## MikeR7

So much talk about things that are never going to happen.


----------



## Rikinky

:zzz:


----------



## Sixto

As much as everyone would like to fill the time, let's do that elsewhere.

D12, please.


----------



## RAD

P Smith said:


> That would bring 1280x1080 back.


Couldn't it also be 1440x1080 like some other DBS provider, doesn't have to be 1280x1080.


----------



## gphvid

:backtotop


----------



## P Smith

*D12 *:zzz:


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> *D12 *:zzz:


Go take a nap.

:backtotop


----------



## Rikinky

How's this? So who thinks D12 will start the move tommorow?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> How's this? So who thinks D12 will start the move tommorow?


We should have a poll, 30 people each pick a different day in April. The winner gets the HD channel of their choice. :lol:

I chose April 6, my birthday, and I want Fuse HD if I win.


----------



## DodgerKing

I say tomorrow, but I don't have a particular channel of need. Pretty much all of the channels I watch are already in HD.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

DodgerKing said:


> I say tomorrow, but I don't have a particular channel of need. Pretty much all of the channels I watch are already in HD.


But when we get more HD you _might_ watch those channels right, at least to see if you like them?


----------



## DodgerKing

Coca Cola Kid said:


> But when we get more HD you _might_ watch those channels right, at least to see if you like them?


From the list I have seen, and from the remaining channels that have not been put up, not really.

I like baseball, but WGN HD is not that big of a deal since I have EI.
Travel HD I may watch on occasion, but I do not watch it now and see no reason why I would watch it later.
I don't sub to premiums, so I don't care about them either.
Other than that, there are no other channels that interest me, besides many of those we already have.

I will be rooting for all of you guys to get the channels you want, however.


----------



## Newshawk

March 30th, and I'll take BBC America-Dr.Who in HD!


----------



## Davenlr

April 15th, and my HD choice is CNN Headline News (except when Nancy Grace is on)


----------



## Sixto

Please, let's not have everyone guessing dates and channels.

Thanks.


----------



## steveken

Hey, Sixto, lets lock this for a few days till it starts drifting. Think that's a good idea?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

steveken said:


> Hey, Sixto, lets lock this for a few days till it starts drifting. Think that's a good idea?


I think that's why he made this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806


----------



## Doug Brott

Yeah, no reason to lock this thread .. Discussion happens.


----------



## Rikinky

Funny how once there was an anticipation of new HD Channels. Now it's just for the Satellite that will give the capacity for it, to move an inch in space. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Rikinky said:


> Funny how once there was an anticipation of new HD Channels. Now it's just for the Satellite that will give the capacity for it, to move an inch in space. :lol:


It's moving at roughly 6,879 miles per hour.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Seems like this thread is an anticipation thread of when d12 will move.


----------



## Sixto

kevinwmsn said:


> Seems like this thread is an anticipation thread of when d12 will move.


Many steps along the way ... FCC Filings, Design, Build, Test, Ship, Launch, Move, Test, Drift, Test, "Live" ... been lots of anticipation at each step for a few years now.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm looking forward to the day we can retire this thread .. I supposed that's a form of anticipation


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> I'm looking forward to the day we can retire this thread .. I supposed that's a form of anticipation


Me too ... Been 2 years!

Started with the announcement on 2/28/2008.


----------



## curt8403

Doug Brott said:


> I'm looking forward to the day we can retire this thread .. I supposed that's a form of anticipation


I am looking forward to 3 things
1. announcement that D12 is drifting
2. announcement that D12 is parked
3. announcement that D12 is broadcasting


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Many steps along the way ... FCC Filings, Design, Build, Test, Ship, Launch, Move, Test, Drift, Test, "Live" ... been lots of anticipation at each step for a few years now.





Doug Brott said:


> I'm looking forward to the day we can retire this thread .. I supposed that's a form of anticipation





curt8403 said:


> I am looking forward to 3 things
> 1. announcement that D12 is drifting
> 2. announcement that D12 is parked
> 3. announcement that D12 is broadcasting


4. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is being built.
5. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has finished being built.
6. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has been shipped to launch site
7. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has been launched
8. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has completed testing
9 announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is drifting
10. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is parked
11. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is broadcasting

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who likes to think ahead...


----------



## curt8403

Alan Gordon said:


> 4. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is being built.
> 5. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has finished being built.
> 6. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has been shipped to launch site
> 7. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has been launched
> 8. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) has completed testing
> 9 announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is drifting
> 10. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is parked
> 11. announcement that D14 (hypothetical BSS satellite name) is broadcasting
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who likes to think ahead...


are we skipping D13 (Is 13 an unlucky number)


----------



## smiddy

curt8403 said:


> are we skipping D13 (Is 13 an unlucky number)


I may be mistaken, but I think D 13 was scrapped or something like that (from the drawing board, but physical hardware).


----------



## Alan Gordon

curt8403 said:


> are we skipping D13 (Is 13 an unlucky number)


DIRECTV 13 Update

~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

curt8403 said:


> are we skipping D13 (Is 13 an unlucky number)


I think that bird was canceled and the license given back to the FCC


----------



## curt8403

Alan Gordon said:


> DIRECTV 13 Update
> 
> ~Alan


 sad, 13 is indeed an unlucky number


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> Funny how once there was an anticipation of new HD Channels. Now it's just for the Satellite that will give the capacity for it, to move an inch in space. :lol:


There still is lots of anticipation for new HD channels. Huge thread  here


----------



## dvdmth

A little off topic, but I'm curious when the current DirecTV satellites are expected to reach end of life, and if DirecTV has any plans for when that happens. Anyone know?


----------



## kokishin

dvdmth said:


> A little off topic, but I'm curious when the current DirecTV satellites are expected to reach end of life, and if DirecTV has any plans for when that happens. Anyone know?


ebay :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

dvdmth said:


> A little off topic, but I'm curious when the current DirecTV satellites are expected to reach end of life, and if DirecTV has any plans for when that happens. Anyone know?


DirecTV is constantly replacing satellites now. Their oldest ones have already been put out of service.


----------



## wmb

dvdmth said:


> A little off topic, but I'm curious when the current DirecTV satellites are expected to reach end of life, and if DirecTV has any plans for when that happens. Anyone know?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit


----------



## longrider

dvdmth said:


> A little off topic, but I'm curious when the current DirecTV satellites are expected to reach end of life, and if DirecTV has any plans for when that happens. Anyone know?


the planned life of a modern comm satellite is about 15 years. What determines end of life is one of two things - either a failure of the payload (transponders, solar panels, etc) or exhaustion of station keeping fuel. Even though I say exhaustion of fuel, there is still a reserve kept to boost it to the graveyard orbit. What I dont know is if the command and control system fail to the point of no redundancy do you have to park it at that time?


----------



## LameLefty

longrider said:


> What I dont know is if the command and control system fail to the point of no redundancy do you have to park it at that time?


Yes. FCC regs and international agreements prohibit loss of control to the extent that the spacecraft becomes a hazard.


----------



## P Smith

longrider said:


> the planned life of a modern comm satellite is about 15 years. What determines end of life is one of two things - either a failure of the payload (transponders, solar panels, etc) or exhaustion of station keeping fuel. Even though I say exhaustion of fuel, there is still a reserve kept to boost it to the graveyard orbit. *What I dont know is if the command and control system fail to the point of no redundancy do you have to park it at that time?*


It will be another practicing target for defense system. Here. That time - for very long range type.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

wmb said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit


Wikipedia is unreliable. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> It will be another practicing target for defense system. Here. That time - for very long range type.


No such thing for GSO.


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> No such thing for GSO.


 and probably no self destruct option either. so we just have to move dying satellites. Is the parking orbit for dead satellites higher or lower than the standard GSO?


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> and probably no self destruct option either. so we just have to move dying satellites. Is the parking orbit for dead satellites higher or lower than the standard GSO?


Higher.


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> and probably no self destruct option either. so we just have to move dying satellites. Is the parking orbit for dead satellites higher or lower than the standard GSO?


As Jeremy points out, the graveyard orbit is higher.

And as for any self-destruct system . . . well, that would be the worst idea conceivable for earth-orbiting spacecraft. There's no way to completely vaporize the entire mass of a spacecraft absent use of some kind of nuclear device; any other method would result in a cloud of thousands of particles and fragments in just as many individual orbital trajectories, putting the entire GSO constellation at risk all over the world.


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> *and probably no self destruct option either*. so we just have to move dying satellites. Is the parking orbit for dead satellites higher or lower than the standard GSO?


now pictures what will happen if such mechanism will be engaged and ... :eek2:
Pretty crazy idea I would say.


----------



## wmb

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Wikipedia is unreliable. :lol:


Always check the references. Its a good starting point for many technical thing like this. I use it often when I need a quick answer to a question. For example, I was tryin to remember what Dirichlet boundary conditions are, I could go here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirichlet_boundary_condition

Seems pretty accurate to me, but its been over 10 years since I took PDEs.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

wmb said:


> Always check the references. Its a good starting point for many technical thing like this. I use it often when I need a quick answer to a question. For example, I was tryin to remember what Dirichlet boundary conditions are, I could go here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirichlet_boundary_condition
> 
> Seems pretty accurate to me, but its been over 10 years since I took PDEs.


I was referring to another thread in which we're arguing about something a guy read on Wiki and whether its reliable or not. I love Wiki, use/edit it all the time.


----------



## ejjames

LameLefty said:


> As Jeremy points out, the graveyard orbit is higher.
> 
> And as for any self-destruct system . . . well, that would be the worst idea conceivable for earth-orbiting spacecraft. There's no way to completely vaporize the entire mass of a spacecraft absent use of some kind of nuclear device; any other method would result in a cloud of thousands of particles and fragments in just as many individual orbital trajectories, putting the entire GSO constellation at risk all over the world.


I say it should open a worm hole to another dimension. poof, problem solved.


----------



## tonyd79

Coca Cola Kid said:


> There still is lots of anticipation for new HD channels. Huge thread  here


Me, I just anticipate an email from Sixto's fantastic update thread.


----------



## SuperZ06

ejjames said:


> I say it should open a worm hole to another dimension. poof, problem solved.


:lol:


----------



## Avder

You'd think they'd put a redundant de-orbit system on those things with its own fuel and control system so they could just do a controlled burn-up in the atmosphere or something, or ejectit from orbit on a course with the sun..


----------



## Jeremy W

Avder said:


> You'd think they'd put a redundant de-orbit system on those things with its own fuel and control system so they could just do a controlled burn-up in the atmosphere or something, or ejectit from orbit on a course with the sun..


It's too far to burn up in the atmosphere, and I believe it would require way too much fuel to de-orbit and fling it at the sun.


----------



## smiddy

Jeremy W said:


> It's too far to burn up in the atmosphere, and I believe it would require way too much fuel to de-orbit and fling it at the sun.


That would be very kewl (or hot)! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> It's too far to burn up in the atmosphere, and I believe it would require way too much fuel to de-orbit and fling it at the sun.


It would take too much fuel either way - to deorbit from that altitude or to put it into an escape trajectory.

Graveyard orbits are a fine way to dispose of GSO satellites: high enough to be stable for thousands and thousands of years, and up out of the way of the working satellites in an immediately around the GSO Clarke Belt.


----------



## Sixto

10pm ET (#129) last night at 76.04°.


----------



## iceturkee

Sixto said:


> 10pm ET (#129) last night at 76.04°.


moving?


----------



## Sixto

iceturkee said:


> moving?


Nope.


----------



## rrrick8

Sixto said:


> For those who'd like to be notified of any "significant" news:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806​
> There's been some discussion in the past for a CLOSED thread, that can be subscribed to, to track just the important stuff.
> 
> "Significant" will be anything that seems important relative to Satellites or National HD ... beginning of Drift, important FCC filing, signs of a new National HD channel(s), ... anything that seems "interesting".


Notification system must be broken. Nothing out of it since the thread started.


----------



## Sixto

rrrick8 said:


> Notification system must be broken. Nothing out of it since the thread started.


No need for the alarms blaring quite yet.


----------



## rrrick8

Sixto said:


> No need for the alarms blaring quite yet.


J/k. With age comes patience. It'll get there when it gets there.
Unlike many on here...


----------



## loudo

Maybe someone forgot to pull up the anchor.


----------



## David MacLeod

add a plasma yield weapon to every sat 
double duty as a "Star Wars: ABM system :lol:
yeah that would be cost effective ... :grin:



LameLefty said:


> As Jeremy points out, the graveyard orbit is higher.
> 
> And as for any self-destruct system . . . well, that would be the worst idea conceivable for earth-orbiting spacecraft. There's no way to completely vaporize the entire mass of a spacecraft absent use of some kind of nuclear device; any other method would result in a cloud of thousands of particles and fragments in just as many individual orbital trajectories, putting the entire GSO constellation at risk all over the world.


----------



## sswheeler

Maybe it is stuck on a piece if debris and it needs a kick to get over it?


----------



## Piratefan98

Shoulda used Michelin's.










Jeff


----------



## twaller

Following this thread is like watching paint dry.......grass grow.......(insert analogy here).......


----------



## curt8403

curt8403 said:


> and probably no self destruct option either. so we just have to move dying satellites. Is the parking orbit for dead satellites higher or lower than the standard GSO?





LameLefty said:


> As Jeremy points out, the graveyard orbit is higher.
> 
> And as for any self-destruct system . . . well, that would be the worst idea conceivable for earth-orbiting spacecraft. There's no way to completely vaporize the entire mass of a spacecraft absent use of some kind of nuclear device; any other method would result in a cloud of thousands of particles and fragments in just as many individual orbital trajectories, putting the entire GSO constellation at risk all over the world.


 Self Destruct was a joke...


----------



## freerein100

I have the feeling Directv may use the entire STA extension before drifting it


----------



## PkDog

twaller said:


> Following this thread is like watching paint dry.......grass grow.......(insert analogy here).......


satellites drift --


----------



## PhilS

freerein100 said:


> I have the feeling Directv may use the entire STA extension before drifting it


I bet their goal is to finish testing by tomorrow - the last day of the quarter.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

There's no reason to keep posting the same thing over and over. We have many other threads if you are bored reading this one.


----------



## Rikinky

Stuart Sweet said:


> There's no reason to keep posting the same thing over and over. We have many other threads if you are bored reading this one.


Thank You. Good Grief!:zzz:


----------



## Fog627

I think we need some divine intervention. Maybe we will have a Good Friday!!! :engel10: :nono2:


----------



## Lancelink

freerein100 said:


> I have the feeling Directv may use the entire STA extension before drifting it


Speaking of STA, it occured to me to go back and look at the STA authorzing the drift...

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050

It is virtually certain at this point that a new STA will be required to drift to the final slot. There is just not time to stay within the parameters of the authorization issued March 8th without using a whole bunch o gas. What is not so clear is whether a new _Request for STA_, which was actually filed Dec. 01, 2009, (the last 2 pages of the above document) is required. Under any circumstances IMHO nothing happens until more trees are killed, so the first notice that something is up probably won't be a TLE.

Now, to make myself clear, this is not a D12 is falling metaphor of any kind. What it is is a kick in the pants (maybe) to a very stale discussion. Something new to talk about. Pile on!

By the way, the rarely used by me H in IMHO is out of respect to Sixto and Lame Lefty, among others, who do unbelievable good work here..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lancelink said:


> Speaking of STA, it occured to me to go back and look at the STA authorzing the drift...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050
> 
> It is virtually certain at this point that a new STA will be required to drift to the final slot. There is just not time to stay within the parameters of the authorization issued March 8th without using a whole bunch o gas. What is not so clear is whether a new _Request for STA_, which was actually filed Dec. 01, 2009, (the last 2 pages of the above document) is required. Under any circumstances IMHO nothing happens until more trees are killed, so the first notice that something is up probably won't be a TLE.
> 
> Now, to make myself clear, this is not a D12 is falling metaphor of any kind. What it is is a kick in the pants (maybe) to a very stale discussion. Something new to talk about. Pile on!
> 
> By the way, the rarely used by me H in IMHO is out of respect to Sixto and Lame Lefty, among others, who do unbelievable good work here..


I'm not sure nothing happens without more paperwork. It does say that the drift will be ≈20 days, and to be in position no later then May 5th. That leaves another 16ish days before it needs to start moving.

Unless I'm not understanding that document correctly we still have over two weeks before anything has to happen. Now if they can't make May 5th then I'm sure we'll see some more paper. 

Mike


----------



## SpaceComo

Ok, since we are bored and need something to talk about. Here is some more STA talk. I think it is highly likely they will have to cut some more trees to print STA’s for the “drift”.

Before I go any further I am a “newbee” here at dbstalk, but not to the space business. Many thanks to Sixto and the other leaders of this site. I have had many to most of my questions answered, thank you all for the immense amount of time you spend on this and sharing with us all. It will take me some more time to read/scan thru the immense amount of information here and I am sure I do not know all that the seasoned members do, but I will offer my humble speculations and maybe a few additional facts. Forgive me if I end up repeating something already covered.

1 – I have found an additional granted STA (SES-STA-20100319-00334) for the earth-stations supporting the IOT extension of D12. It was granted on 3/19/10 as was the space-station STA in “Sixto’s” post #2 in this thread. This in itself makes logical sense since both the earth-station and the space-station (D12) are now authorized to continue IOT testing parked at 76° until April 19th. But what is interesting are the “conditions” on page 2 of the new STA. Some conditions were in the previous extension of the STA, but now we have more and they include other reminders to DTV of requirements and what may also be going on in space.

New SES STA for earth-station extension of IOT: (sorry, since I am new they won't let me post URL yet, so you will have to type/copy/paste this in, replace the xxxx with surfing language h..p)
xxxx://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806526

2 – The Boeing MCC is very busy, not just with D12. There are also a lot of other activities in the Geo region that could be having impacts on the testing and movement of D12.

3 – I also am speculating that the RB-2A payload requires considerably more IOT testing due to the characterization of the new frequency band (17GHz) being used (antenna patterns, flux density measurements, and particularly interference analysis), since this is normally allocated for Earth-to-Space use. Even the early filing for the IOT from DTV speaks to the uncertainty of schedule for testing of the RB-2A payload.

4 – Add to this that DTV is not yet advertizing on TV commercials about all the new capability they will have when D12 “lites-up”. I know, I know you should not advertize something you can’t yet deliver, but we should at least be hearing about the great new capacity that will be available soon. I bet they have some good commercial in the pocket ready to go. Even the DirecTV.com website is mute on the subject (other than a reference to Premium channels that are moving to make room for more HD).

So I will humbly speculate that we are looking at another 2 weeks of sitting at 76° before the move commences since DTV now has authorization to sit there until April 19th. But of course DTV can still ask for more STA’s to push this schedule and they will be granted by the FCC, but time is money especially in this business, so we shall see.

Thanks for reading this far. These are my opinions and I reserve the right to be incorrect.


----------



## bobnielsen

Good spotting. http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806526

The STA is not for RB-2A, just the D12 portion (of course, they may have spent more time than planned testing RB-2A and needed the extension to complete the D12 testing).

Also:welcome_s to dbstalk


----------



## Sixto

Yes, there was an two additional STAs for the additional time for Earth-to-Space.http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806525

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806526​Been tracking both for any changes since 3/19/2010.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

SpaceComo said:


> 4 - Add to this that DTV is not yet advertizing on TV commercials about all the new capability they will have when D12 "lites-up". I know, I know you should not advertize something you can't yet deliver, but we should at least be hearing about the great new capacity that will be available soon. I bet they have some good commercial in the pocket ready to go. Even the DirecTV.com website is mute on the subject (other than a reference to Premium channels that are moving to make room for more HD).
> 
> So I will humbly speculate that we are looking at another 2 weeks of sitting at 76° before the move commences since DTV now has authorization to sit there until April 19th. But of course DTV can still ask for more STA's to push this schedule and they will be granted by the FCC, but time is money especially in this business, so we shall see.
> 
> Thanks for reading this far. These are my opinions and I reserve the right to be incorrect.


Not to go off point, #4 is incorrect. I personally have seen DIRECTV commercials stating "they NOW have the capacity for over 200 HD channels". I've seen this commercial several times. The word "now" was used.

Plus, the DIRECTV site states the same (And now with the capacity for over 200 HD channels).
Here's the link: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/competition/comcast/hd


----------



## SpaceComo

Thanks, I missed that. I would still expect them to hit the market harder as they get closer.:hurah:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

SpaceComo said:


> Thanks, I missed that. I would still expect them to hit the market harder as they get closer.:hurah:


No worries.
:welcome_s to DBSTALK.

This site rocks!


----------



## Lancelink

MicroBeta said:


> ... It does say that the drift will be ≈20 days, and to be in position no later then May 5th. That leaves another 16ish days before it needs to start moving...
> Mike


But the Drift STA is expressly for 30 days. So does that mean 30 days from Mar 8th to start drifting, or complete the operation? I would think complete it, but I don't know.



Hutchinshouse said:


> ...I personally have seen DIRECTV commercials stating "they NOW have the capacity for over 200 HD channels". I've seen this commercial several times. The word "now" was used.


Yep, they came and then mostly disappeared. Just speculation, but the more I think about it this might be a case of marketing getting too far out front before being told by engineering what is _really_ happening. As SpaceComo :welcome_s (and others) have commented, RB-2A testing may well have taken longer than anticipated, but be complete with IOT of D12 happening now. Marketing getting ahead of things? That NEVER happens!

But then what do I know.... Pass a banana and lets talk about it...


----------



## Sixto

Lancelink said:


> Speaking of STA, it occured to me to go back and look at the STA authorzing the drift...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050
> 
> It is virtually certain at this point that a new STA will be required to drift to the final slot. There is just not time to stay within the parameters of the authorization issued March 8th without using a whole bunch o gas. What is not so clear is whether a new _Request for STA_, which was actually filed Dec. 01, 2009, (the last 2 pages of the above document) is required. Under any circumstances IMHO nothing happens until more trees are killed, so the first notice that something is up probably won't be a TLE.
> 
> Now, to make myself clear, this is not a D12 is falling metaphor of any kind. What it is is a kick in the pants (maybe) to a very stale discussion. Something new to talk about. Pile on!
> 
> By the way, the rarely used by me H in IMHO is out of respect to Sixto and Lame Lefty, among others, who do unbelievable good work here..


You raise an interesting point.

The grant for the STA for the Drift states "period of 30 days" rather then a start and an end date for the drift, but need to study this further.

Some of the other STAs have a start-date and an end-date, such as the earth-to-space approval for the communication during the drift.

May be likely that we'll see another STA (or extension).


----------



## dcowboy7

Maybe when they said new HD by late April they meant late April 2011.


----------



## cbayus

The STA for drift to 103 is good until May 5th or 30 days after testing is complete; Whichever one occurs first. This means they have to start drifting by April 5 or have D12 working and in place by May 5th

If they can't comply with the current filing they will have to file a new STA or an addendum of modification to the current filing.


----------



## johnner1999

dcowboy7 said:


> Maybe when they said new HD by late April they meant late April 2011.


Good point!

I bet D12 is not healthy and the brain-trust at DirecTV is trying to see how they swap transponders around to satisfy any new channels.

Just my guess


----------



## Stuart Sweet

My guess would be otherwise

|
|
V


----------



## itzme

Stuart Sweet said:


> My guess would be otherwise
> 
> |
> |
> V


Uhmmm, those would be symbols directing us to your disclaimer, right? Not a graphic representation of anything else, right?


----------



## Hdhead

itzme said:


> Uhmmm, those would be symbols directing us to your disclaimer, right? Not a graphic representation of anything else, right?


It's pointed in the wrong direction for that. :grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

itzme said:


> Uhmmm, those would be symbols directing us to your disclaimer, right? Not a graphic representation of anything else, right?


Yes, I shudder to think what you might have presumed it was.


----------



## matt

itzme said:


> Uhmmm, those would be symbols directing us to your disclaimer, right? Not a graphic representation of anything else, right?


Bahaha



Hdhead said:


> It's pointed in the wrong direction for that. :grin:


Even funnier! :lol:


----------



## SpaceComo

My experience with obtaining several dozen STA's for earth stations (I qualify this because I have never applied for a spacestation and spacestations are several orders of magnitude more expensive than earth stations). The grant date plus duration is very definitive, I have not been successful obtaining a keyed event start date. Usually they will only grant 30 days, but have authority to grant 180 days without a public advertizement. With that said they will continue to renu STA's many times if you can show that it would be an impact to your mission if they did not do so, but only if you have started the action authorized on the STA and you need more time, they are amenable to extention with just a phone call to branch chief. If you have not started your requested action you must file for a new start date or new STA.:nono2:


----------



## clevfandad

Having read every post in this thread from day of the launch, it is very hard for me to believe that there is not something wrong up there.


----------



## T-Hefner

clevfandad said:


> Having read every post in this thread from day of the launch, it is very hard for me to believe that there is not something wrong up there.


Yes, and those "Capacity for 200 HD channel" DTV commercials have gone ghost... I haven't seen one in a while, they just disappeared...makes me nervous.


----------



## Beerstalker

I find it harder to believe that Doug, Stuart and SR would all come in here and lie to us though. If something was wrong they would just not make any comment, for them to actually come out and make comments saying that everything is ok gives me confidence that they have heard something and they know it is ok. They are just not allowed to give more information than that.


----------



## SpaceComo

Having suffered participating in 2 IOT's in the recent past, it is not at all unusual for this delay, especially with new technology (RB-2A payload). We know the 702 bus functions (I have not see any data on payload) since they have kept it on station at 76 degrees for more than 45 days and that requires flight ops control to do so. No more depressing talk please


----------



## slimoli

Beerstalker said:


> I find it harder to believe that Doug, Stuart and SR would all come in here and lie to us though. If something was wrong they would just not make any comment, for them to actually come out and make comments saying that everything is ok gives me confidence that they have heard something and they know it is ok. They are just not allowed to give more information than that.


As soon as Doug post the 1st "everything is OK" , I asked him if that was an opinion, a fact or wishful thinking. Never got an answer.


----------



## Hdhead

Natives are getting restless again, time for another comfort post from those in the know.


----------



## Beerstalker

slimoli said:


> As soon as Doug post the 1st "everything is OK" , I asked him if that was an opinion, a fact or wishful thinking. Never got an answer.


Those guys are all very careful in how they word stuff. If they make a real statement I would count on it as fact, like Stuarts signature stating "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned". Otherwise they tend to say stuff more like I think, I hope, I would like to see, etc.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2408439&postcount=4385


----------



## Lt Disher

They would be a lot more comforting to me if they didn't always add that everything is on schedule and as planned. That part sounds like spin to me. As if a 30 day extension was alway in their plans. It makes me wonder about the first part of their statements that everything is fine.


----------



## johnner1999

Wasn't ESPN-u scheduled for tomorrow? Now on Twitter D* is saying not till the new sat is ready, no date or even range... That with E* launching more and more National HD it's making me rethink my provider!


----------



## Garry

johnner1999 said:


> Wasn't ESPN-u scheduled for tomorrow? Now on Twitter D* is saying not till the new sat is ready, no date or even range... That with E* launching more and more National HD it's making me rethink my provider!


Why don't you wait for D12 to be operational first? Does it really matter if ESPNU is delayed a little?


----------



## PhilS

Directv’s web site still says ..” With the most HD channels now, and now the capacity for over 200, your options are virtually endless..” They would have changed this if D12 had problems and would not have announced 3DTV channels.


----------



## johnner1999

I dunno just getting tired of how directv hasn't really "given" us any national HD in about a year, no?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Garry said:


> Why don't you wait for D12 to be operational first? Does it really matter if ESPNU is delayed a little?


Yes it matters, they promised it by March 31. They can make all the excuses they want but a broken promise is a broken promise.


----------



## sigma1914

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yes it matters, they promised it by March 31. They can make all the excuses they want but a broken promise is a broken promise.


And people can moan & groan till the cows come home...it has ZERO affect on Directv & their plans.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yes it matters, they promised it by March 31. They can make all the excuses they want but a broken promise is a broken promise.


I don't remember DirecTV promising anything. 

Mike


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

MicroBeta said:


> I don't remember DirecTV promising anything.
> 
> Mike


You sure? I remember this quite well:

DirecTV Press Release Mary 19, 2009 DIRECTV TO OFFER ESPNU IN ITS CHOICE™ PACKAGE - ESPNU's Distribution More Than 46 Million Subscribers

which includes the line:

"As part of the agreement, DIRECTV will also launch ESPNU HD by the end of the first quarter 2010."

Defend them all you want but its all there in black and white.


----------



## Sixto

There are multiple STAs for the Drift.

The first is for the D12 satellite itself. There's just one STA for both D12 and RB-2A. It was filed on 12/1/2009: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407​
It was approved on 3/8/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​
From reading the request and the approval, it does appear that it's for 30 days from when the IOT is complete. At least that's my interpretation, but all feedback is welcome.

It may also be possible that on 3/8, it was believed that the Drift was about to begin shortly, based on when other approvals have been received.

The next set of STAs is to allow earth station communication to D12 during the Drift.

The STAs were submitted on 12/2/2009:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784447

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784437​
The STAs were approved on 3/8/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805004

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805006​
In the request, DirecTV asks for the STAs to be structured to begin upon completion of IOT.

In the grant, it seems like there's an end date of 4/6/2010.

For the actual earth station communication during the IOT, there were two STAs for each of the two earth stations. One STA (x2) for the first 30 days, and then another STA (x2) for the extension:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784443

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784448

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806446

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806448​
And the approvals:2/12/2010 - http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799887

3/19/2010 - http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806525

2/12/2010- http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=799889

3/19/2010 - http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=806526​


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> There are multiple STAs for the Drift.
> 
> The first is for the D12 satellite itself. There's just one STA for both D12 and RB-2A. It was filed on 12/1/2009: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407​
> It was approved on 3/8/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​
> From reading the request and the approval, it does appear that it's for 30 days from when the IOT is complete. At least that's my interpretation, but all feedback is welcome.
> 
> It may also be possible that on 3/8, it was believed that the Drift was about to begin shortly, based on when other approvals have been received.
> 
> The next set of STAs is to allow earth station communication to D12 during the Drift.
> 
> The STAs were submitted on 12/2/2009:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784447
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784437​
> The STAs were approved on 3/8/2010:http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805004
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805006​
> In the request, DirecTV asks for the STAs to be structured to begin upon completion of IOT.
> 
> In the grant, it seems like there's an end date of 4/6/2010.
> 
> For the actual earth station communication during the IOT, there were two STAs for each of the two earth stations.
> 
> One STA (x2) for the first 30 days, and then another STA (x2) for the extension (3/19/2010)


In English Sixto, when will the drift start and when will we get our new HD?


----------



## Mark Walters

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...and_ESPN_3D_Channels_Available_June_11th/4461

Don't worry - D* promises D12 should be operational by June 11th! If it takes that long this is gonna be a very long thread!


----------



## T-Hefner

Sixto,

So........Are you saying by 4/6/10 we should see a drift if no other STA is filed for extension ?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Mark Walters said:


> http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...and_ESPN_3D_Channels_Available_June_11th/4461
> 
> Don't worry - D* promises D12 should be operational by June 11th! If it takes that long this is gonna be a very long thread!


D* makes a lot of promises that they can't seem to keep. I wouldn't be surprised if D12 is still at 76 W when Q3 rolls around.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> In English Sixto, when will the drift start ...


Soon.



Coca Cola Kid said:


> In English Sixto, when will ... we get our new HD?


April or Early-May.


----------



## Mark Walters

Coca Cola Kid said:


> D* makes a lot of promises that they can't seem to keep. I wouldn't be surprised if D12 is still at 76 W when Q3 rolls around.


hahaha - that word promises is used a bit too loosely


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

T-Hefner said:


> Sixto,
> 
> So........Are you saying by 4/6/10 we should see a drift if no other STA is filed for extension ?


Hey my birthday is that day. I'd sure love some new HD for the big 30.


----------



## mrtanner69

This thread is perhaps the greatest example of a watched pot in the history of mankind.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

mrtanner69 said:


> This thread is perhaps the greatest example of a watched pot in the history of mankind.


Ya some watch this thread more than they actually watch TV. :lol:


----------



## flyingtigerfan

mrtanner69 said:


> This thread is perhaps the greatest example of a watched pot in the history of mankind.


Dunno. It would have competition with the D10 and D11 watched pots. Perhaps D10 with its spot problems got a little more heated than this one.


----------



## Sixto

T-Hefner said:


> Sixto,
> 
> So........Are you saying by 4/6/10 we should see a drift if no other STA is filed for extension ?


Really not sure if the Drift has to start by 4/6 or end by 4/6 based on the approval. I'd guess end by 4/6, but that's not what they requested, and now not what they need.


----------



## Sixto

mrtanner69 said:


> This thread is perhaps the greatest example of a watched pot in the history of mankind.


The other option is no thread at all, and we all guess, and hope, and pray, with no data at all.


----------



## loudo

Coca Cola Kid said:


> D* makes a lot of promises that they can't seem to keep.


I wouldn't call the wording of DirecTV's May, 2009 press release a promise, but more of their plan. I am sure that time frame was their intention when the release was issued, but delays in the year since then have made that date look less likely.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

loudo said:


> I wouldn't call the wording of DirecTV's May, 2009 press release a promise, but more of their plan. I am sure that time frame was their intention when the release was issued, but delays in the year since then have made that date look less likely.


Well they could have released a follow up statement or change the wording in the original PR. Or just change the policy about announcing dates several months in advance. I wonder if they'll even be able to carry ESPN 3D at launch as announced yesterday, what with all of these delays, but that's a whole other thread, just like this discussion, so

:backtotop


----------



## Jeremy W

Beerstalker said:


> I find it harder to believe that Doug, Stuart and SR would all come in here and lie to us though.


If something turns out to be wrong with the satellite, you will not hear about it in a post from Doug, Stuart, Satelliteracer, or anyone else on this site. It will be in a press release from DirecTV. They can't just casually comment to the mods here that something serious is wrong, it's ridiculously illegal to do that.

The usual disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone is lying, and I'm not saying anything is wrong with D12.


----------



## vfr781rider

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Ya some watch this thread more than they actually watch TV. :lol:


I watch this thread _while_ I watch HDTV


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Really not sure if the Drift has to start by 4/6 or end by 4/6 based on the approval. I'd guess end by 4/6, but that's not what they requested, and now not what they need.


It's just one WEEK away ! Everyone must relax for the upcoming week. Now. 

[And watch how E14 is testing .]


----------



## texasmoose

The w8 is quite maddening though! Drift already baby!


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> It's just one WEEK away ! Everyone must relax for the upcoming week. Now.


Alright P Smith, set the example for us. No posting for a week.


----------



## rrrick8

You know, when I created this darn thing...









I didn't know it would be pushing -100 days and still be in use.
I thought I would have dropped it by now.

Oh well. Later is better than never.
:thats:


----------



## azarby

Coca Cola Kid said:


> D* makes a lot of promises that they can't seem to keep. I wouldn't be surprised if D12 is still at 76 W when Q3 rolls around.


As a consumer, you do have a choice of providers. If what DTV is providimg you is not what you want, you can get your services elsewhere.


----------



## johnner1999

azarby said:


> As a consumer, you do have a choice of providers. If what DTV is providimg you is not what you want, you can get your services elsewhere.


then in that case the "contract" should be broken as I feel they have breached their end of it


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

azarby said:


> As a consumer, you do have a choice of providers. If what DTV is providimg you is not what you want, you can get your services elsewhere.


Not a very big choice. There's E* (HD Lite) and Comcast well their fees are insane so no.


----------



## Jeremy W

johnner1999 said:


> then in that case the "contract" should be broken as I feel they have breached their end of it


Despite what you feel, they haven't breached anything.


----------



## slimoli

The article about ESPN-3D is very funny, look at this quote:

"the first program being broadcast in 3D is the world cup match between South America and Mexico. " 

Does the idiot who wrote the text think there is a country called "South America" ?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> The article about ESPN-3D is very funny, look at this quote:
> 
> "the first program being broadcast in 3D is the world cup match between South America and Mexico. "
> 
> Does the idiot who wrote the text think there is a country called "South America" ?


ya its right next to the country of Africa :lol:


----------



## Sixto

11:28pm ET last night - Same.


----------



## dpeters11

Coca Cola Kid said:


> ya its right next to the country of Africa :lol:


I think that's even funnier, that Mexico isn't even playing a South American team, but an African one.


----------



## Tom_S

Sixto said:


> 11:28pm ET last night - Same.


Ya know, honestly, at this point there's gotta be something wrong, don't you think. I mean really.


----------



## BWELL316

Tom_S said:


> Ya know, honestly, at this point there's gotta be something wrong, don't you think. I mean really.


This is normally where I'd like to say "everything is going to be fine", but even with my sunny disposition I am beginning to wonder.


----------



## Lancelink

Whew, that's what I get for sleeping...


Sixto said:


> ...From reading the request and the approval, it does appear that it's for 30 days from when the IOT is complete. At least that's my interpretation, but all feedback is welcome....


 Thanks for your view Sixto. I think it is clear that all the requests for STAs seek authority at the termination of IOT, but my interpretation of the 'stamp of approval' is the STAs themselves still terminate on the 6th of April. My take based on the quote below and other input is if they start moving before the 6th then a simple phone call keeps things legal. If not, then a new STA might need to be generated.



SpaceComo said:


> ...they will continue to renu STA's many times if you can show that it would be an impact to your mission if they did not do so, but *only if you have started the action* authorized on the STA and you need more time, they are amenable to extention with just a phone call to branch chief. If you have not started your requested action you must file for a new start date or new STA.:nono2:


Probably just semantics and fodder for something semi relevant to the thread, but it's good to have some discussion. I guess I could suggest we all put our foil hats on...:grin: Sorry...no, I didn't really mean that.

In other news...



Mark Walters said:


> ...Don't worry - D* promises D12 should be operational by June 11th! If it takes that long this is gonna be a very long thread!


A) It already is a very long thread.

2) I don't think you can assume that the launch of ESPN3D has to be tied to D12 being operational. Let's estimate that a 3D channel requires twice the transponder space of a regular HD channel (a very high estimate, I think). There is plenty of unused capacity with current satellites to launch this channel.

Now I have to get some actual work done so I can take the rest of the week off and sit around at home waiting for a satellite to begin moving at a ground speed of 25 mph.


----------



## CorpITGuy

Tom_S said:


> Ya know, honestly, at this point there's gotta be something wrong, don't you think. I mean really.


Yep. I'm NOT one to get worked up, but I have a small bit of concern that wasn't there a few days ago. Are the official "sources" still being positive, Tom?


----------



## Lancelink

Tom_S said:


> Ya know, honestly, at this point there's gotta be something wrong, don't you think. I mean really.


No...I don't think so. I still maintain the best early indication of a major problem will be a significant drop in stock price compared to major indexes (NASDAQ,Dow) followed by a statement by D*. And they have *no* requirement to make any statement until or unless a problem is fully understood. In fact any statement before full understanding would be as illegal as withholding info. Make an early statement, price goes down, find a fix, insiders buy stock, announce fix, price goes up, SEC investigation.

Now I'm really back to work..."must....close ....browser...window..."


----------



## Hoosier205

I see absolutely no cause whatsoever for concern.


----------



## RobertE

Tom_S said:


> Ya know, honestly, at this point there's gotta be something wrong, don't you think. I mean really.


No.

IMHO, the BSS testing of RB-2A took longer than expected and pushed back the testing of D12s Ka payload. Nothing more nothing less. The sky is still not falling.

Time for this again


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RobertE said:


> No.
> 
> IMHO, the BSS testing of RB-2A took longer than expected and pushed back the testing of D12s Ka payload. Nothing more nothing less. The sky is still not falling.
> 
> Time for this again


I have no idea why it's delayed, but that sounds very likely to me.

Mike


----------



## slimoli

MicroBeta said:


> I have no idea why it's delayed, but that sounds very likely to me.
> 
> Mike


I think Sixto said the extension is not for BSS testing, is that correct ?


----------



## DogLover

slimoli said:


> I think Sixto said the extension is not for BSS testing, is that correct ?


The extension authorized only testing of the D12's Ka payload, not the BSS testing of RB-2A. However, in their initial testing, I believe they were authorized to test both pieces. If they spent more time on the BSS testing, and didn't finish the Ka testing, they only needed the authorization to extend the Ka testing.

It is, of course, just a guess on our part. But with the "controversy" over the BSS testing, it does make sense that they'd want to make sure to finish that on time and not need an extension for that part of the satellite.


----------



## Crow159

I don't think it's dead in the sky, but I do think that, for whatever reason, D12 will not light up as scheduled.

I mean all mention of new HD in April is gone from the website. At one point, SatRacer said things were moving a little ahead of schedule. I would imagine that it's now behind with the increased testings.

So no, the sky is not falling, but it's also not brightr and sunny like the forecast called for. It's cloudy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

From previous expert posts here....we still have a window of several days prior to movement before having any measurable impact to the planned activation target for D12. 

I seem to recall 4/5-4/6 as the latest dates mentioned to support the additional 20 -21 days for a successful activation goal.


----------



## slimoli

Crow159 said:


> I . It's cloudy.


80% chances of rain


----------



## trdrjeff

D12 will drift on Good Friday and Arise at 103 on Easter


----------



## P Smith

Looking at TLE history on first page, I would say some loosening happen in station-keeping after end of February. Gap increased and other orbit parameters become wider. But before March those numbers was almost perfect.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

P Smith said:


> Looking at TLE history on first page, I would say some loosening happen in station-keeping after end of February. Gap increased and other orbit parameters become wider. But before March those numbers was almost perfect.


Since I don't know a darned thing about IOT, positioning of satellites, and what it takes for movement/station keeping, what exactly can I infer from that?

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

MicroBeta said:


> Since I don't know a darned thing about IOT, positioning of satellites, and what it takes for movement/station keeping, what exactly can I infer from that?
> 
> Mike


Nothing. The "loosening" P Smith referred to could be the result of any one of a dozen things (preparations for orbit-raising in the initial time period prior to the new request for STA for more testing; additional spot-beam testing which must be done by biasing or changing the attitude of the spacecraft which in turn makes station-keeping harder; intentional degradation of station-keeping for testing with marginal spacecraft stability; the decision to relax station-keeping tolerance to save fuel during the extended test period; plus a bunch of possible component failures of the spacecraft, but guessing any of those would be complete speculation and most of the possible failures don't matter in the final analysis anyway.

I'll just stick to what Doug and Stuart have said.


----------



## Sixto

STA news on the way ... few minutes ...

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under ..."

The database is being updated now ... SAT-STA-20100331-00060


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> Since I don't know a darned thing about IOT, positioning of satellites, and what it takes for movement/station keeping, what exactly can I infer from that?
> 
> Mike


IOT would require better holding the satellite in place.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> IOT would require better holding the satellite in place.


Nope. See my post above.


----------



## sigma1914

Sixto said:


> STA news on the way ... few minutes ...
> 
> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under ..."
> 
> The database is being updated now ...


An extension to drift time?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

P Smith said:


> IOT would require better holding the satellite in place.


Ok. Unless you're impling that there's something wrong the it's station keeping ability, I'm still not gettin' it. 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

sigma1914 said:


> An extension to drift time?


yes, awaiting the details.


----------



## texasmoose

Sixto said:


> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location.


This doesn't sound good. Is this going to push the projected time table for new HD channels from the end of April to end of May or something even later than that?


----------



## Sixto

3/31/2010: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."

FCC database still being updated ...


----------



## Sixto

texasmoose said:


> This doesn't sound good. Is this going to push the projected time table for new HD channels from the end of April to end of May or something even later than that?


Maybe not.

Awaiting details.

It may just be extension past 4/6, which we expected.


----------



## rrrick8

In case no one noticed.
Directv's stock is surging upward today.


----------



## sigma1914

sigma1914 said:


> An extension to drift time?





Sixto said:


> yes, awaiting the details.


*Waiting for the panic to ensue*
<sarcasm> OMG, now they want another extension. OMG, D12 is in trouble. OMG, we'll never get new HD. OMG, the sky is falling...where's my tinfoil hat? </sarcasm>


----------



## cdizzy

It looks to me that the original STA to drift expires on the 6th of April and this extension gives them the extra time to get it done?

Doesn't sound bad to me.


----------



## matt

sigma1914 said:


> *Waiting for the panic to ensue*
> <sarcasm> OMG, now they want another extension. OMG, D12 is in trouble. OMG, we'll never get new HD. OMG, the sky is falling...where's my tinfoil hat? </sarcasm>


Yeah, there must be something wrong with the rocket boosters.

Come on people :sure:


----------



## Sixto

In summary ...

D12 FCC Filing (3/31/2010): "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."

D12: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808653

Earth Station E090076: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808649

Earth Station E070027: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808651​
Here's the original STA:Request: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407

Grant: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


----------



## Crow159

The document doesn't specify the length of the extension. Would it be safe to assume a 30 day extension, just like the testing extension?

EDIT: Nevermind, read the wrong document, yes a 30 day extension.


----------



## Darkscream

So....

I am assuming from all this that D* does not believe that D12 will be at 103 before May 5 ?

Thus the extension ?


----------



## nd bronco fan

I take this as a good sign, we all knew the drift was not going to happen in the time that was left........this says it is still going to happen, just a little later.

Could have been worse and they needed to stay parked for additional testing.


----------



## Jon J

Sounds like they have completed testing but the original STA for drift would expire before it arrives at 103, hence the request for an extension.


----------



## Lancelink

Darkscream said:


> ....I am assuming from all this that D* does not believe that D12 will be at 103 before May 5 ?


No, not at all. Here's some convoluted optimism for ya....By extending the STA to drift, D* is asking for the authority to start the burners at any time for the 20 day trek to 103. Could be today, could be April15th. If they thought or knew there was a serious problem there would be no need to do this.

Unless there is a massive coverup afoot....

Or...like nd Bronco fan said. :eek2: Sorry man, these dang chimp fingers are slow on a keyboard!

Anyway, thanks Sixto (what, the millionth time?) for the quick, pertinant update. Your work is greatly appreciated here.

Now back to your regular program of watching the TLEs roll in.


----------



## lwilli201

Lancelink said:


> Unless there is a massive coverup afoot....


Only the Chimp knows for sure.


----------



## Garry

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Well they could have released a follow up statement or change the wording in the original PR. Or just change the policy about announcing dates several months in advance. I wonder if they'll even be able to carry ESPN 3D at launch as announced yesterday, what with all of these delays, but that's a whole other thread, just like this discussion, so
> 
> :backtotop


It isn't like you don't know that D12 is delayed.


----------



## woj027

Sixto said:


> In summary ...
> 
> D12 FCC Filing (3/31/2010): "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=808653​
> Have yet to see the actual documentation (if any) behind the request.
> 
> Here's the original STA:Request: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784407
> 
> Grant: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=805050​


Since the STA for D12 will expire on 4/19/10 and the rocket scientists on this site believe it should take around 20 days to drift to 103 and the original drift is set to expire 30 days after 3/8/10 (4/7/10?) There isn't enough time to drift, so obviously they need more time to drift, and asking now means that they are ready to drift?


----------



## steveken

Ok guys, finally remembered where I parked my cloaked Bird of Prey. Flew up there and looked around. Everything looks to be alright. No sparking components indicating a short. All the solar panels appeared to be deployed. Looks to be pointed down towards the Pacific Northwest like it should be. We are doing good. Just sit back, grab a beer and some chips, and wait. If you get frustrated, go outside to kick the dog or something.

And, Coca Cola Kid, you are beginning to make me question my preferred choice of Soft Drinks. Just kidding. LOL


----------



## Hutchinshouse

nd bronco fan said:


> I take this as a good sign, we all knew the drift was not going to happen in the time that was left........this says it is still going to happen, just a little later.
> 
> Could have been worse and they needed to stay parked for additional testing.


A true optimist. The drift is delayed for a 2nd time and you take it as a good sign. I wish I could be as positive as you. I won't panic until DIRECTV takes down the 200 capacity verbiage.


----------



## SuperZ06

*Sixto,

With all the rumors and speculation on what is happening with D12, will there eventually be a time when we know definitively what the delay in lighting up D12 was ?

Just for curiosity's sake.

Thank you. *


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Let me answer the question for Sixto.

Probably not. 

DIRECTV is a multi-billion-dollar company with trade secrets. They are required to file certain things publicly because, as a broadcaster, they are using a public resource (the electromagnetic spectrum.) They're not required to divulge technical issues with their processes, and it would be foolish of them to do so.


----------



## nd bronco fan

Hutchinshouse said:


> A true optimist. The drift is delayed for a 2nd time and you take it as a good sign. I wish I could be as positive as you. I won't panic until DIRECTV takes down the 200 capacity verbiage.


Yeah I see your reasoning, I just think this filing now with the still having time before the original deadline passes that there is a higher likelihood that the drift is ready to begin. Like I said before......they could be submitting a DOA filing instead.


----------



## rrrick8

woj027 said:


> Since the STA for D12 will expire on 4/19/10 and the rocket scientists on this site believe it should take around 20 days to *drift* to 103 and the original *drift* is set to expire 30 days after 3/8/10 (4/7/10?) There isn't enough time to *drift*, so obviously they need more time to *drift*, and asking now means that they are ready to *drift*?


Man. If D12 drifted that much it would be there already.


----------



## Sixto

There was much debate yesterday relative to the existing STAs. 

Many would have assumed that an extension of the Drift STA was required, because there was a perspective that the original Drift STA would expire next week.

This may simply be the extension to allow the Drift to begin, and extend past next week.

All may be fine, and this might just be business-as-usual.

Maybe even good news, that they're ready to Drift soon.


----------



## Sixto

This is probably all good news.

There were actually 3 STA's today.

One for D12, and one for each of the two earth stations to communicate with D12 during the Drift.

Have updated the Notification thread and the previous post with the details.

All what we anticipated yesterday.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Okay I'm lost, so when will the drift start? Is the extended testing over yet?


----------



## bobnielsen

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Okay I'm lost, so when will the drift start? Is the extended testing over yet?


*SOON!*


----------



## Sixto

Just need one person to post if the notification system worked.

I got a "system error" when I posted. Just want to double check it worked.

Just need 1 person to say they got it.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

bobnielsen said:


> *SOON!*


no need to shout, we're not all rocket scientists. :nono:


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> Just need one person to post if the notification system worked.
> 
> I got a "system error" when I posted. Just want to double check it worked.
> 
> Just need 1 person to say they got it.


I got the notification.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

steveken said:


> Ok guys, finally remembered where I parked my cloaked Bird of Prey. Flew up there and looked around. Everything looks to be alright. No sparking components indicating a short. All the solar panels appeared to be deployed. Looks to be pointed down towards the Pacific Northwest like it should be. We are doing good. Just sit back, grab a beer and some chips, and wait. If you get frustrated, go outside to kick the dog or something.
> 
> And, Coca Cola Kid, you are beginning to make me question my preferred choice of Soft Drinks. Just kidding. LOL


hey man diss me all you want but leave The Real Thing out of it.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> I got the notification.


Perfect. Thanks!


----------



## uncrules

Sixto said:


> Just need one person to post if the notification system worked.
> 
> I got a "system error" when I posted. Just want to double check it worked.
> 
> Just need 1 person to say they got it.


I got an email when you originally posted in the notification thread. But I didn't get anything when you made the edit. If I didn't see your post about the edit, I wouldn't have known to look for it. So for the next update, I think a separate post in that thread would be needed.


----------



## Sixto

uncrules said:


> I got an email when you originally posted in the notification thread. But I didn't get anything when you made the edit. If I didn't see your post about the edit, I wouldn't have known to look for it. So for the next update, I think a separate post in that thread would be needed.


Yep, we're good. I only went back and added the Earth Station info which isn't that important so kept it all together.

This is all good news.

I doubt that they would request an extension without being sure that they were sure of the Drift.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Yep, we're good. I only went back and added the Earth Station info which isn't that important so kept it all together.
> 
> This is all good news.
> 
> I doubt that they would request an extension without being sure that they were sure of the Drift.


So Sixto, when are they going to finish testing and start drifting? I know I asked already but all I got was yelled at.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So Sixto, when are they going to finish testing and start drifting? I know I asked already but all I got was yelled at.


We are all observers on the outside, evaluating the public data that we have available to us.

Only DirecTV could truly answer that question.

As has been stated in several posts, we're all guessing as to what we believe to be the likely case, based on today's activities.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So Sixto, when are they going to finish testing and start drifting? I know I asked already but all I got was yelled at.


If someone here had that answer they would have given it to you...to everyone for that matter....I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## jilardi2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So Sixto, when are they going to finish testing and start drifting? I know I asked already but all I got was yelled at.


Give out some free sodas and then they will stop yelling. Free stuff always makes people happy.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

MicroBeta said:


> If someone here had that answer they would have given it to you...to everyone for that matter....I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


Okay but hypothetically is this new filing a good thing or a bad thing in terms of the timetable for new HD?


----------



## nd bronco fan

Sixto said:


> Yep, we're good. I only went back and added the Earth Station info which isn't that important so kept it all together.
> 
> This is all good news.
> 
> I doubt that they would request an extension without being sure that they were sure of the Drift.


I think what you are looking for was in a post right up above.


----------



## Crow159

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Okay but hypothetically is this new filing a good thing or a bad thing in terms of the timetable for new HD?


No one knows, they could start drifting today or they could start in 3 weeks. The FCC document says that they have another 30 days to complete the drift.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

jilardi2 said:


> Give out some free sodas and then they will stop yelling. Free stuff always makes people happy.


Okay a round of cold ones on me then.


----------



## George_T

jilardi2 said:


> Give out some free sodas and then they will stop yelling. Free stuff always makes people happy.





Coca Cola Kid said:


> Okay a round of cold ones on me then.


Can I put in my order for a round of Pepsi?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Okay but hypothetically is this new filing a good thing or a bad thing in terms of the timetable for new HD?


You got me. :shrug:

Like Sixto said, only DirecTV knows and they're not sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

George_T said:


> Can I put in my order for a round of Pepsi?


Sure why not.


----------



## curt8403

seems at this time that the line
"Why Don't you two gentlemen have a pepsi" 
and the result might fit here/


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think it's time to drift this conversation back to topic...


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think it's time to drift this conversation back to topic...


Good pun Stuart


----------



## Sixto

Update #131 has same timestamp as #130, with slightly different data.

Interesting that last two times there was a duplicate timestamp was on 3/5 and 3/15. Right at time of BSS test, and when old test STA expired.

Hmmm ... wonder if this is related to something ... hopefully!


----------



## loudo

If my mind serves me correctly didn't we have this same type of suspense when D11 was being tested and moved into position? Then all of a sudden everything moved fast and soon we had new channels. That thread had 6958 posts before it was locked. If this takes as many posts as D11 did, we got a ways to go yet.


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> Ok. Unless you're impling that there's something wrong the it's station keeping ability, I'm still not gettin' it.
> 
> Mike


While I don't have any conclusive conclusion, I can only relay to posted TLEs and do my own thinking; knowing what is station keeping process constitute (bus axes, position at GSO slot, antennas directions, propulsion's timing/trust and nozzles angles, etc) and seen those variations during stay at 76W and imaging IOT tests, I *personally* don't like those changes after the end of February.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

Regarding "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.", can anyone define with clarity "_as planned_"? Knowing that would obviously set clear expectations and silence a great deal of muttering. If it cannot be defined then it is just as vague as "_soon_".

Note that I don't expect a useful answer to this - it is primarily rhetorical. I.e. "as planned" tells us nothing other than D* is still on their schedule. Which we don't know and can only guess. Their schedule could be "D12 live by YE10" - or "D12 live by May 30th" - we don't - and won't know. That said I do appreciate the reassurance of "D12 is fine".


----------



## raoul5788

I can only imagine the laughs those in the know at Directv get from reading this thread!


----------



## Hdhead

raoul5788 said:


> I can only imagine the laughs those in the know at Directv get from reading this thread!


....or the sobs depending on what the status really is.


----------



## CorpITGuy

@DirecTV on Twitter didn't answer my D12 question. Ooooh boy.

Time will tell, I s'pose.

I trust Sixto and the brilliant DBStalk mods.. but I do NOT trust D*, or any company that doesn't want its share price to plummet.  That's the source of my angst.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Tubaman-Z said:


> Regarding "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.", can anyone define with clarity "_as planned_"? Knowing that would obviously set clear expectations and silence a great deal of muttering. If it cannot be defined then it is just as vague as "_soon_".
> 
> Note that I don't expect a useful answer to this - it is primarily rhetorical. I.e. "as planned" tells us nothing other than D* is still on their schedule. Which we don't know and can only guess. Their schedule could be "D12 live by YE10" - or "D12 live by May 30th" - we don't - and won't know. That said I do appreciate the reassurance of "D12 is fine".


I have an answer for you regarding my signature, but you won't like it.

I was given the exact words "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned" by someone who should know. Those were the only words I was given and I trust the person who gave them to me.

_Edit: There, does it make more sense now?_


----------



## Hoosier205

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have an answer for you, but you won't like it.
> 
> I was given those exact words by someone who should know. Those were the only words I was given and I trust the person who gave them to me.


Just to clarify: Are the words you were given, "I have an answer for you, but you won't like it." or "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned."

I like one of those more than the other.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Sorry, the words I was given were: 

D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## UPEngineer

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have an answer for you, but you won't like it.
> 
> I was given those exact words by someone who should know. Those were the only words I was given and I trust the person who gave them to me.


In the context given, I don't like the tone....Bad news????

EDIT::: Now that sounds better Stuart


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sorry, the words I was given were:
> 
> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Seems plain as day to understand to me, and I trust the info from the Mods.


----------



## jilardi2

CorpITGuy said:


> @DirecTV on Twitter didn't answer my D12 question. Ooooh boy.
> 
> Time will tell, I s'pose.
> 
> I trust Sixto and the brilliant DBStalk mods.. but I do NOT trust D*, or any company that doesn't want its share price to plummet.  That's the source of my angst.


ask them a question on twitter about signing up for service then sneak that in there.


----------



## Hoosier205

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sorry, the words I was given were:
> 
> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Thank you. Haha...


----------



## EagleClaw

You guys know D12 with start the drift tomorrow...Think about it....


----------



## Hoosier205

EagleClaw said:


> You guys know D12 with start the drift tomorrow...Think about it....


I'm not even coming here tomorrow. April 1st will be hell around here. At least one person is going to try and screw with people.

...Okay...I lied. I can't stay away from here.


----------



## Rikinky

D12 "cOMING sOON" = :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Beerstalker

Jeremy W said:


> If something turns out to be wrong with the satellite, you will not hear about it in a post from Doug, Stuart, Satelliteracer, or anyone else on this site. It will be in a press release from DirecTV. They can't just casually comment to the mods here that something serious is wrong, it's ridiculously illegal to do that.
> 
> The usual disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone is lying, and I'm not saying anything is wrong with D12.


I realize that they wouldn't be able to come in here and tell us something was wrong (that would have to be in a press release first then they might be able to talk to us about it).

However, I do believe that if they come in here and make statements like D12 is fine they have heard that from someone who knows and they trust. Otherwise they wouldn't say anything at all.

Edit/
Just saw Stuart's post and it looks like I was right.


----------



## sigma1914

Rikinky said:


> D12 "cOMING sOON" = :beatdeadhorse:


Your posts = the same


----------



## Ed Campbell

"Just need 1 person to say they got it."

Then, I came over here to see everyone enjoying the good news.

That was silly...


----------



## MrDad0330

Just a question, when did we find out about the bad spot beams on D10? Might be interesting to know or help put things in perspective. Being a optimist, my feelings are that D12 is fine and possibly they have had some very impactful results on the BSS payload so much to the effect they wanted to play more with it and learn what they can or even think ahead with additional possibilities with BSS I think that once moved to its operational spot, they can no longer test BSS. If test results are proving that they are getting what they expected or even more then it may be great news for D and whats down the road. I also feel if the BSS tests had been disappointing, they would have closed up shop and started drifting to 103 earlier so, with that said, I think no news may be good news. I just wish I had a bug somewhere planted at D so really know.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

MrDad0330 said:


> Just a question, when did we find out about the bad spot beams on D10? Might be interesting to know or help put things in perspective. Being a optimist, my feelings are that D12 is fine and possibly they have had some very impactful results on the BSS payload so much to the effect they wanted to play more with it and learn what they can or even think ahead with additional possibilities with BSS I think that once moved to its operational spot, they can no longer test BSS. If test results are proving that they are getting what they expected or even more then it may be great news for D and whats down the road. I also feel if the BSS tests had been disappointing, they would have closed up shop and started drifting to 103 earlier so, with that said, I think no news may be good news. I just wish I had a bug somewhere planted at D so really know.


IIRC, we heard about it in the middle of Sept. '07. I think there was a press release release a week-ish before the big HD launch.

Mike


----------



## georule

In a nearly 20 year career of fori crawling, this thread is the most nit-pickingly jesuitical accomplishment of the combined talents of the human mind to read tea leaves and stir chicken bones that it has been my pleasure to come across. Well done by all. The CIA and NSA would love to have you on the team.

Like a lot of recent look-ins, the mental sticky of "hey, what happened to D12 anyway --shouldn't it be live around now?" is what caused me to come looking.

Reading that ESPNU PR, I took it as a promise. . . to ESPN. That's where D* will be apologizing. I suspect ESPN will give the "stuff happens" shrug when they do.

And as about a year old D* subscriber, who finally had enough of two years of being treated like a mushroom by Comcast on when I might expect new HD finally drove me to make the move, I must say that my personal preference is far, far, FAR in the direction of preferring a company who gives me target dates well in advance. Even if actual events turn out to require some push back on them. Not even a close call in my book on which model of communicating to me as a customer I prefer.

Thanks again for all the fish.


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> In a nearly 20 year career of fori crawling, this thread is the most nit-pickingly jesuitical accomplishment of the combined talents of the human mind to read tea leaves and stir chicken bones that it has been my pleasure to come across. Well done by all. The CIA and NSA would love to have you on the team.
> 
> Like a lot of recent look-ins, the mental sticky of "hey, what happened to D12 anyway --shouldn't it be live around now?" is what caused me to come looking.
> 
> Reading that ESPNU PR, I took it as a promise. . . to ESPN. That's where D* will be apologizing. I suspect ESPN will give the "stuff happens" shrug when they do.
> 
> And as about a year old D* subscriber, who finally had enough of two years of being treated like a mushroom by Comcast on when I might expect new HD finally drove me to make the move, I must say that my personal preference is far, far, FAR in the direction of preferring a company who gives me target dates well in advance. Even if actual events turn out to require some push back on them. Not even a close call in my book on which model of communicating to me as a customer I prefer.
> 
> Thanks again for all the fish.


Welcome to DBSTalk!

We try.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Seems plain as day to understand to me, and I trust the info from the Mods.


I understand it and trust the Mods as well - I never said otherwise. It's just that other than "D12 is fine" it doesn't tell us much since we don't know "the plan".

Stuart, I neither liked nor disliked your answer - it was as expected. I do appreciate the passing along of the info, in particular the "D12 is fine" piece.

Maybe we should make this a quarterly thread like the HD anticipation thread?


----------



## Sixto

Just so it's crystal clear to everyone ...

Because this is a sensitive topic ...

Anything I post tomorrow will not be a April Fool's joke.

Just want to be clear just in case we have any news.

Sorry to disappoint anyone who might prefer that I play with everyone tomorrow.

Too much focus and time spent to cause any confusion.

Thanks.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Just so it's crystal clear to everyone ...
> 
> Because this is a sensitive topic ...
> 
> Anything I post tomorrow will not be a April Fool's joke.
> 
> Just want to be clear just in case we have any news.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint anyone who might prefer that I play with everyone tomorrow.
> 
> Too much focus and time spent to cause any confusion.
> 
> Thanks.


Consider yourself understood.


----------



## cfkane

This thread should be a total April fools free Zone! (not that it is free of fools, mind you, after all I am one of them)


----------



## T-Hefner

Sixto,
Thanks for the GOOD NEWS! 

Atleast we are seeing some progress in the right direction....So it looks like they got til May 5th give or take a day to get the drift done. I'm sure they will start the drift soon and be at 103 in late april. I wonder if they will start this week or wait til Monday to start the drift...


----------



## slimoli

Once again, news on Wednesday. Do those guys works any other day ?


----------



## georule

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sorry, the words I was given were:
> 
> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Quote marks around the sig quote, perhaps?

Damn, now you got me going for jesuitical distinctions.

I'm outta here. . .


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> Just so it's crystal clear to everyone ...
> 
> Because this is a sensitive topic ...
> 
> Anything I post tomorrow will not be a April Fool's joke.


I'm not worried about you posting funny business, but I had already anticipated others posting false news regarding D12 tomorrow.


----------



## Groundhog45

I would think that DirecTv would not request the extension for the drift until they were almost finished with the testing and ready to start moving. They wouldn't want that clock running unnecessarily if the testing was incomplete. I suspect that the drift is close to starting. Just my estimate. No guess on date.


----------



## Jeremy W

Groundhog45 said:


> They wouldn't want that clock running unnecessarily if the testing was incomplete.


The "clock" is just a formality. It's not like the FCC is going to tell DirecTV they have to leave their satellite at 76°.


----------



## FHSPSU67

cfkane said:


> This thread should be a total April fools free Zone! (not that it is free of fools, mind you, after all I am one of them)


Reminds me of a song: "D12, I'm a fool for you."
OK, :backtotop


----------



## Sixto

As of 10pm ET last night - same.


----------



## kevinwmsn

FHSPSU67 said:


> Reminds me of a song: "D12, I'm a fool for you."
> OK, :backtotop


Do you have to let it linger?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Just so it's crystal clear to everyone ...
> 
> Because this is a sensitive topic ...
> 
> Anything I post tomorrow will not be a April Fool's joke.
> 
> Just want to be clear just in case we have any news.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint anyone who might prefer that I play with everyone tomorrow.
> 
> Too much focus and time spent to cause any confusion.
> 
> Thanks.


aye aye captain


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> As of 10pm ET last night - same.


What if the news is a joke and the sat is already drifting?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> What if the news is a joke and the sat is already drifting?


That thought occurred to more than one of us apparently...


----------



## Sixto

In most cases, the FCC Filing for a new application or any Special Temporary Authority (STA) includes not only the official application but a letter or legal document with the request with some details.

In the case of the D12 Drift extensions from yesterday, there was nothing more then the simple official application. Either there was no need for anything more, or it's not been posted for some reason. There was also no mention of any length of time for the STA. This will probably be in the grant, which is expected shortly.

It may be just that this is a very simple extension, with no need for any other data or details.


----------



## Sixto

The only remaining question I have about the extension is whether DirecTV needs the extension granted prior to starting the Drift.

It appears that the previous approvals (D12 & Earth Stations) is good until at least next Tuesday (4/6/2010).

You might think that they can't start a Drift without an approval for the entire time period expected for the Drift, unless they're certain that the approval will be received by 4/6/2010.

Also, usually the FCC waits to approve a request until near the time when the request is actually needed, just not sure if DirecTV can start the Drift prior.


----------



## flapperdink

Sixto said:


> The only remaining question I have about the extension is whether DirecTV needs the extension granted prior to starting the Drift.
> 
> It appears that the previous approvals (D12 & Earth Stations) is good until at least next Tuesday (4/6/2010).
> 
> You might think that they can't start a Drift without an approval for the entire time period expected for the Drift, unless they're certain that the approval will be received by 4/6/2010.
> 
> Also, usually the FCC waits to approve a request until near the time when the request is actually needed, just not sure if DirecTV can start the Drift prior.


that makes sense. any reason you could think of why the FCC would not approve the STA prior to the previous one expiring? it seems in the past that the FCC approval was fairly quick.

from a pure planning / risk perspective, it would be a huge risk to DirecTV if they attempted to drift prior to the extension approval from the FCC (even if there is a high probability that the approval would happen). i've worked in design engineering my whole life and the best of plans can go awry...Murphy is alive and kicking.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Based on history....I still suspect that by this time next week - we will know some definitive facts on the drift itself and the status.

If not, then it would seem to prompt all sorts of speculation on meeting the original timeline expectations.


----------



## Sixto

flapperdink said:


> that makes sense. any reason you could think of why the FCC would not approve the STA prior to the previous one expiring? it seems in the past that the FCC approval was fairly quick.
> 
> from a pure planning / risk perspective, it would be a huge risk to DirecTV if they attempted to drift prior to the extension approval from the FCC (even if there is a high probability that the approval would happen). i've worked in design engineering my whole life and the best of plans can go awry...Murphy is alive and kicking.


The extension will be approved. That's not an issue at all, especially with the simple paperwork we've seen.

Just questioning whether the approval is required prior to the Drift starting.

I highly doubt that DirecTV is waiting on the FCC. It's actually usually the other way around, where we've seen the FCC wait until near when the approval is needed, which then sometimes helps us all gauge when an activity is about to occur.


----------



## jefbal99

jacmyoung said:


> What if the news is a joke and the sat is already drifting?


I checked the TLEs, Sixto is good


----------



## FHSPSU67

kevinwmsn said:


> Do you have to let it linger?


Whew, a Blackberries song I thought at first you were calling me out:lol:
[edit] As texasmoose kindly points out below, it was the Cranberries.


----------



## texasmoose

Cranberries song. Blackberries?!??!?


----------



## FHSPSU67

texasmoose said:


> Cranberries song. Blackberries?!??!?


Yeah, I had blackberries on my mind the whole time I was searching for it. Definitely Cranberries. It was after my musical period of interest - 50's and 60's mostly.


----------



## jacmyoung

jefbal99 said:


> I checked the TLEs, Sixto is good


Are you sure today's TLEs are not a joke? That was what I meant, jokingly of course.


----------



## bwaldron

FHSPSU67 said:


> Yeah, I had blackberries on my mind the whole time I was searching for it. Definitely Cranberries. It was after my musical period of interest - 50's and 60's mostly.


Don't forget Raspberries ... "go all the way" (to 103)


----------



## George_T

bwaldron said:


> Don't forget Raspberries ... "go all the way" (to 103)


http://www.raspberriesonline.com/band_bio.shtml


----------



## mreposter

Something's definitely drifting, but I think it's this thread...


----------



## FHSPSU67

bwaldron said:


> Don't forget Raspberries ... "go all the way" (to 103)


Yeah, Jim Bonfanti was from my hometown.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I know there's a topic here somewhere...

:backtotop


----------



## matt

MicroBeta said:


> I know there's a topic here somewhere...
> 
> :backtotop


Yeah, what's the latest tonight?


----------



## njblackberry

matt1124 said:


> Yeah, what's the latest tonight?


Coke Kid is still angry that he was promised ESPN 3000 HD
Sixto is still watching
Many are in full fledged panic because "something must be very wrong"

And others are getting ready for a nice weekend.


----------



## CG Tustin

njblackberry said:


> Coke Kid is still angry that he was promised ESPN 3000 HD
> Sixto is still watching
> Many are in full fledged panic because "something must be very wrong"
> 
> And others are getting ready for a nice weekend.


Was that your musical group??:lol:


----------



## smiddy

!rolling No news...is good news.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Go forth and enjoy the nice weather this weekend (in the Eastern US). D12 will be working overtime so you can relax


----------



## Sixto

just got two updates ... this must be the drift ... nope. same.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> just got two updates ... *this must be the drift* ... nope. same.


Must still be April fools day :lol:


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> just got two updates ... this must be the drift ... nope. same.


Sixto, can you aim a dish to 76W ? Perhaps you could see same IOT Ku signals, like I did catch from E14 yesterday.


----------



## Fog627

Question: Is there any time frame to best communicate with the satellite? In other words, is the command to start the drift any more likely to come at a specific time of day or night?


----------



## Jeremy W

Fog627 said:


> Question: Is there any time frame to best communicate with the satellite? In other words, is the command to start the drift any more likely to come at a specific time of day or night?


The satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, so from Earth it appears to always be in the same spot. Night or day makes absolutely no difference as far as the satellite communications are concerned.


----------



## Fog627

I guess I was wondering if there was any significant difference in interference with communications between night and day...(although I didn't say that!!)


----------



## Jeremy W

Fog627 said:


> I guess I was wondering if there was any significant difference in interference with communications between night and day


If there was, do you think you'd have 24x7 satellite TV service?


----------



## ejjames

I'm sure this is a softball question for most of you, but here goes...In order to get from 76 degrees to 103, does D12 have to slow down or speed up relative to the Earth's rotation?


----------



## AllenE

Probably either, but one way would take a whole lot longer.


----------



## LameLefty

ejjames said:


> I'm sure this is a softball question for most of you, but here goes...In order to get from 76 degrees to 103, does D12 have to slow down or speed up relative to the Earth's rotation?





AllenE said:


> Probably either, but one way would take a whole lot longer.


Yep. 

If the satellite accelerates, it will raise its orbital velocity, increase its altitude, and thus increase the orbital period. At that point, it will take longer to circle the earth than the length of a day, thus appearing to drift westward in the sky as the earth rotates beneath it.

Conversely, if the satellite decelerates, it will lower its altitude, decrease its orbital period to less than one day, and drift eastward as seen from earth.


----------



## SpaceComo

LameLefty said:


> Yep.
> 
> If the satellite accelerates, it will raise its orbital velocity, increase its altitude, and thus increase the orbital period. At that point, it will take longer to circle the earth than the length of a day, thus appearing to drift westward in the sky as the earth rotates beneath it.
> 
> Conversely, if the satellite decelerates, it will lower its altitude, decrease its orbital period to less than one day, and drift eastward as seen from earth.


Here is what they will most likely do. I can't cover all the "what-ifs" and I am not doing math on Good Friday and there are other ways to move the bird. As LameLefty said you have to accelerate or decelerate the bird to make it move (drift relative to position on earth). If you push the orbit higher the bird slows down and drifts west, if you pull the bird down it speeds up and it drifts east. Sounds odd that you have to speed up the bird in order for it to settle down slower, but the energy goes into moving the bird to a higher orbit. This is a Newton and Kepler law thing.

To move the bird from 76 to 103 in the 20 days that has been discussed requires the bird to drift at about 1.3 degrees per day west ("doahh", I just did math). To do this the bird only needs its orbit raised about 100Km higher than geo. If you raise it higher than that it would drift faster, but requires more energy to do so, and don't forget most dead birds are in the range of about 300Km to 500Km above the geo-belt, so you don't want to get too close to them.

Here is a picture that may help some. Note that the burn delta velocities show the bird being raised in orbital altitude. To bring the bird down the burns are opposite shown. Also note that this maneuver takes 2 burns for each orbital change.


----------



## LameLefty

SpaceComo said:


> Here is what they will most likely do ...


:up:


----------



## jefbal99

I think i have a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyways...

The FCC Docs that Sixto posted the other day were just applications, correct?

Before drift can start, all three of those need to be approved, the two earth stations for communication and the space station?


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> If there was, do you think you'd have 24x7 satellite TV service?


We have 24x7 service alright, but it is clear to me I got better clarity in sound and image at night


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> We have 24x7 service alright, but it is clear to me I got better clarity in sound and image at night


I usually have better clarity during the day .. at night .. not so much. :grin:


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I usually have better clarity during the day .. at night .. not so much. :grin:


I did not say I had better clarity at night at all. My clarity is equally bad day or night, but somehow the service appears with better clarity at night


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> I did not say I had better clarity at night at all. My clarity is equally bad day or night, but somehow the service appears with better clarity at night


The signal is 100% digital until it leaves the Directv receiver (and until it hits your eyeballs if you're hooked up with HDMI). Day or night should make absolutely no difference whatsoever.


----------



## dpeters11

jacmyoung said:


> I did not say I had better clarity at night at all. My clarity is equally bad day or night, but somehow the service appears with better clarity at night


There was a thread the other day with someone else who had what sounds like a similar issue. Some of the guys recommended a new LNB and possibly a realignment. But back to topic


----------



## HarleyD

jacmyoung said:


> I did not say I had better clarity at night at all. My clarity is equally bad day or night, but somehow the service appears with better clarity at night


Beer goggles?


----------



## radiomandc

:backtotop


----------



## flyingtigerfan

SpaceComo said:


> Here is what they will most likely do. I can't cover all the "what-ifs" and I am not doing math on Good Friday and there are other ways to move the bird. As LameLefty said you have to accelerate or decelerate the bird to make it move (drift relative to position on earth). If you push the orbit higher the bird slows down and drifts west, if you pull the bird down it speeds up and it drifts east. Sounds odd that you have to speed up the bird in order for it to settle down slower, but the energy goes into moving the bird to a higher orbit. This is a Newton and Kepler law thing.
> 
> To move the bird from 76 to 103 in the 20 days that has been discussed requires the bird to drift at about 1.3 degrees per day west ("doahh", I just did math). To do this the bird only needs its orbit raised about 100Km higher than geo. If you raise it higher than that it would drift faster, but requires more energy to do so, and don't forget most dead birds are in the range of about 300Km to 500Km above the geo-belt, so you don't want to get too close to them.
> 
> Here is a picture that may help some. Note that the burn delta velocities show the bird being raised in orbital altitude. To bring the bird down the burns are opposite shown. Also note that this maneuver takes 2 burns for each orbital change.


Nice. Thanks. I already knew the concept but appreciate the picture and the insights.

Maybe if they had equipped D12 with sharks with "lasers" it could have just gone up about +500 km and blasted all the dead sats out of the way and gotten there faster.


----------



## jacmyoung

HarleyD said:


> Beer goggles?


Apparently both you and Doug can relate


----------



## Sixto

Have given up on all Drift theories. 

Had the "lack of TLE's for a few days" theory. Nope, same.

Had the "drift extension request" theory. Nope, same.

Had the duplicate time stamp theory. Nope, same.

Now exploring the "we had multiple TLE's within the past 24 hours" theory.

Actually, I'm now a big believer in the "let's just go out and enjoy the Spring Sunshine, and it'll happen when it supposed to happen" theory!

Awaiting the next update.

Soon.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Actually, I'm now a big believer in the "let's just go out and enjoy the Spring Sunshine


While you are out there look for a moving shadow shaped like D12. :hurah:


----------



## njblackberry

Sixto said:


> Actually, I'm now a big believer in the "let's just go out and enjoy the Spring Sunshine, and it'll happen when it supposed to happen" theory!


That's just plain silly talk. How can people obsess about the movement of a satellite when they are outside? Who will be watching the TLEs? 
[/sarcasm]

It sure is nice outside today


----------



## Sixto

Update #135, 7:45am ET today. No change.


----------



## P Smith

Sad, no one can aim a dish to 76W and check spectrum, Ku at least.
[I found interesting process of IOT while E14 is at 138.5W, the picture are like SETI search ]


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Sad, no one can aim a dish to 76W and check Ku spectrum at least.


There should be no Ku coming from D12 at this point. The time for testing BSS at 76ºW has expired. The current authorization is for Ka testing.


----------



## SpaceComo

Ok, I said no math on Good-Friday, but could not hold my water. I fabricated a *Drift Simulation TLE*. This is one of a million perturbations that could drift D12 to 102.765° (103, its new home). I modeled this TLE in STK but it should work in most SGP4 propagators. If you are just plain bored, but boss won't let you leave your office until 4:30 like me! and want to run it, here are the assumptions for it to work:

1 - Must run it from 3 APR 00:00:00 UTC to 23 APR 00:00:00 UTC (20 days exactly).

2 - If you want to run it other times then you must adjust the "Mean Anomaly 115.15" to make it start at 76.04°.

3 - If you want to run it for something different than 20 days, you must adjust the "Mean Motion 0.99903".

4 - If you edited the TLE you may or may-not need to adjust the sumcheck depending if your propagator cares about that.

DIRECTV 12-Drift 
1 36131U 09075A 10093.00000002 -.00000263 00000-0 99999-4 0 1274
2 36131 0.0461 0.0001 0001372 0.0001 115.1500 0.99903000000016

*Remember I said this is a simulation, it is NOT a real event* (at least best I know anyway).

TLE is also a file attachment below.

Have fun, I am done for the week. I am headed out to ride my bicycle on this beautiful east coast afternoon.:grin:


----------



## Sixto

SpaceComo said:


> Ok, I said no math on Good-Friday, but could not hold my water. ...


Good stuff. Enjoy!


----------



## LameLefty

SpaceComo said:


> Ok, I said no math on Good-Friday, but could not hold my water. I fabricated a *Drift Simulation TLE*. This is one of a million perturbations that could drift D12 to 102.765° (103, its new home). I modeled this TLE in STK but it should work in most SGP4 propagators. If you are just plain bored, but boss won't let you leave your office until 4:30 like me! and want to run it, here are the assumptions for it to work:
> 
> 1 - Must run it from 3 APR 00:00:00 UTC to 23 APR 00:00:00 UTC (20 days exactly).
> 
> 2 - If you want to run it other times then you must adjust the "Mean Anomaly 115.15" to make it start at 76.04°.
> 
> 3 - If you want to run it for something different than 20 days, you must adjust the "Mean Motion 0.99903".
> 
> 4 - If you edited the TLE you may or may-not need to adjust the sumcheck depending if your propagator cares about that.
> 
> DIRECTV 12-Drift
> 1 36131U 09075A 10093.00000002 -.00000263 00000-0 99999-4 0 1274
> 2 36131 0.0461 0.0001 0001372 0.0001 115.1500 0.99903000000016
> 
> *Remember I said this is a simulation, it is NOT a real event* (at least best I know anyway).
> 
> TLE is also a file attachment below.
> 
> Have fun, I am done for the week. I am headed out to ride my bicycle on this beautiful east coast afternoon.:grin:


Fun, fun. I used to have a copy of STK when I was running a PC. Great stuff, thanks.


----------



## HIGHWAY

sixto good job on d 12. what state in north east do you live.


----------



## Sixto

SpaceComo said:


> Ok, I said no math on Good-Friday, but could not hold my water...


With that TLE, it would be at 103° a little after midnight on 4/23.

Edit: Just noticed, you said that!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> With that TLE, it would be at 103° a little after midnight on 4/23.
> 
> Edit: Just noticed, you said that!


Wait did I miss something, it started drifting?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Wait did I miss something, it started drifting?


Nope.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Nope.


Well I'm sick of waiting. Screw it, I'm switching it E*. Oh wait April Fools Day is over. :lol:


----------



## ejjames

So what you are all saying is that there's a little more to it that just hitting the accelerator, or tapping the brakes.


----------



## Newshawk

I'm beginning to believe a watched satellite never drifts...


----------



## Smthkd

Im starting to believe D* has a problem with D12 and won't come clean until......wait.....wait......


wait

Aprils Fool is over! My bad 

Just calm down people. It will get there SOON just like D10 and we all will forget how long we waited!


----------



## HerntDawg

P Smith said:


> Sad, no one can aim a dish to 76W and check spectrum, Ku at least.
> [I found interesting process of IOT while E14 is at 138.5W, the picture are like SETI search ]


I drove by what looks like an intact primestar dish yesterday, would that pick it up?


----------



## P Smith

I don't know what LNBF is there, could be FSS (linear). If you could install Ka/Ku LNBF from old AT-9, that would be right one, or at least circular Ku LNBF (12.2-12.7 GHz). Also you'll need spectrum analyzer or BLSA [PCI card] like this to see test activity.
Then post pictures here as I did for E14:


----------



## CockerKingdom

Responce to the "Sarbanes Oxley"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes%E2%80%93Oxley_Act


----------



## elaclair

jacmyoung said:


> I did not say I had better clarity at night at all. My clarity is equally bad day or night, but somehow the service appears with better clarity at night


Okay, all kidding aside, if you truly are seeing a difference in your service where it looks better at night, it's possible that you have a problem with the LNB and it's reacting to the change in temperature between night and day.

I'm just sayin'


----------



## HerntDawg

P Smith said:


> I don't know what LNBF is there, could be FSS (linear). If you could install Ka/Ku LNBF from old AT-9, that would be right one, or at least circular Ku LNBF (12.2-12.7 GHz). Also you'll need spectrum analyzer or BLSA [PCI card] like this to see test activity.
> Then post pictures here as I did for E14:


the tp13 looks like it.


----------



## P Smith

I used same P* dish with LNBFs from AT-9, while did watch D10 and D11.


----------



## Jeremy W

HerntDawg said:


> the tp13 looks like it.


Looks like it what?


----------



## srenker

Jeremy W said:


> Looks like it what?


Test activity on E14, don't get your hopes up. :nono2:


----------



## JLucPicard

Could we please not let this turn into an E14 discussion thread???


----------



## rrrick8

JLucPicard said:


> Could we please not let this turn into an E14 discussion thread???


:goodjob:


----------



## P Smith

srenker said:


> Test activity on E14, don't get your hopes up. :nono2:


He mean a SHAPE of the Primestar dish what resemble to an oval what I put over tp13 signals.


----------



## ATARI

Back from vacation -- and it looks like nothing has changed, except for the extension, which I got from the subscription. Thanks again for doing that, Sixto.


----------



## Sixto

As of 11am ET this morning. No change.

Obviously, some complexity.


----------



## Smthkd

*sigh* Im getting restless! And those DISH commercials are not helping! *sigh*

Come on D12...MOVE!


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Obviously, some complexity.


What do you mean by "Obviously, some complexity"?


----------



## slimoli

Complexity as in trouble, big problem,delay ?


----------



## Sixto

Been at 76° three weeks longer then the original test request. Obviously, more to test then originally thought.

With the recent Drift extension request, hopefully ready to rock and roll real soon now.


----------



## SpaceComo

Sixto said:


> As of 11am ET this morning. No change.
> 
> Obviously, some complexity.


I will temper this conversation with this: I assure you we do NOT know what else the Boeing MCC has going on. D12 may not be it's top priority. Have a great Easter!
:nono:


----------



## Sixto

SpaceComo said:


> I will temper this conversation with this: I assure you we do NOT know what else the Boeing MCC has going on. D12 may not be it's top priority. Have a great Easter!
> :nono:


Yep, scheduling certainly part of it.


----------



## Avder

So once they start moving the thing, how long will it take to drift to its final position? 

And then after THAT how long until they start bringing new stuff online?


----------



## johnner1999

I know what is going on AMC-14 has D12 in a tractor beam!


----------



## Tom_S

SpaceComo said:


> I will temper this conversation with this: I assure you we do NOT know what else the Boeing MCC has going on. D12 may not be it's top priority. Have a great Easter!
> :nono:


I think you may be reaching here. Something is obviously wrong. It may be able to be fixed, but come on now.


----------



## wavemaster

Beerstalker said:


> Those guys are all very careful in how they word stuff. If they make a real statement I would count on it as fact, like Stuarts signature stating "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned". Otherwise they tend to say stuff more like I think, I hope, I would like to see, etc.


Considering it was supposed to be 2009, then Jan 2010, then April (next will be May) I would say it is NOT as planned. Point to the phrase all you want. Type "the sky is pink" and point to it all you want - it won't change anything.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

wavemaster said:


> Considering it was supposed to be 2009, then Jan 2010, then April (next will be May) I would say it is NOT as planned. Point to the phrase all you want. Type "*the sky is pink*" and point to it all you want - it won't change anything.


My little brother thinks it is, he's colorblind. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> I think you may be reaching here. Something is obviously wrong. It may be able to be fixed, but come on now.


Why folks insist on assuming something is wrong when an entirely new technology setup was already scheduled to be tested in addition to the base D12 capabilities is simply amazing.

If the new stuff took a little longer to test (and required all sorts of hoops to get approval), its no big deal.

The sky is not falling, pink, or in any other such erroneous situation.

Most folks here will look for D12 to start its drift to 103 this next week (as expected).


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> Been at 76° three weeks longer then the original test request. Obviously, more to test then originally thought.


Unfortunately, it is not all that obvious. It could be that they have more to test than they originally thought, but these are rocket scientists. They knew exactly what was on the bird and what had to be tested when they launched.

It is also not obvious that they are just doing more testing. It is also possible that there is something wrong up there.


----------



## T-Hefner

I agree. This upcoming week is the week it drifts. I figured they wait til monday ish to kick off the drift......lets see what happens....


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

T-Hefner said:


> I agree. This upcoming week is the week it drifts. I figured they wait til monday ish to kick off the drift......lets see what happens....


I doubt it, they haven't even been granted permission yet. All they did file an application, it hasn't been answered yet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I doubt it, they haven't even been granted permission yet. All they did file an application, it hasn't been answered yet.


Based on past history, that can be turned around in a day.


----------



## T-Hefner

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I doubt it, they haven't even been granted permission yet. All they did file an application, it hasn't been answered yet.


Yeahh...But I think once it is approved its on and poppin...LOL...

Like, shortly after approval will be the drift, hopefully anyways.

-Tim


----------



## wavemaster

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ... Most folks here will look for D12 to start its drift to 103 this next week (as expected).


(as expected) - that's some funny stuff there.

So if it doesn't start this week, (Like it didn't in 09 - Jan 2010 etc.) and there is another delay, I guess it will then be As Expected?

Honestly, I can't remember the last thing D planned that went as scheduled. Hopefully they only miss this one by months and not years like others.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Oh the drama!

Get a grip, people.


----------



## Doug Brott

Do I need to make a post again?


----------



## Tom_S

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Why folks insist on assuming something is wrong when an entirely new technology setup was already scheduled to be tested in addition to the base D12 capabilities is simply amazing.
> 
> If the new stuff took a little longer to test (and required all sorts of hoops to get approval), its no big deal.
> 
> The sky is not falling, pink, or in any other such erroneous situation.
> 
> Most folks here will look for D12 to start its drift to 103 this next week (as expected).


I am not saying the sky is falling, but they already tested a BSS package before and planned for a certain amount of testing. Now, something came up! Obviously this is taking ALOT longer than planned. Now it could be good things that came up, but I highly doubt that. I think something bad came up and they are working up a solution.

I do not think D12 is a failure in any way, and it will be broadcasting beautiful HD content soon enough. But. There is obviously something wrong! Is it the SAT or something else entirely, who know, but something is up!


----------



## sigma1914

Tom_S said:


> I am not saying the sky is falling, but they already tested a BSS package before and planned for a certain amount of testing. Now, something came up! *Obviously this is taking ALOT longer than planned.* Now it could be good things that came up, but I highly doubt that. I think something bad came up and they are working up a solution.
> 
> I do not think D12 is a failure in any way, and it will be broadcasting beautiful HD content soon enough. But. *There is obviously something wrong! * Is it the SAT or something else entirely, who know, but something is up!


What part of, "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned" do younot understand?


----------



## johnner1999

Doug Brott said:


> Do I need to make a post again?


what kind of post? that you had a vision last night that the D12 was already moving and will be @ 103 tomorrow?

Now thats the kind of post I am talking about


----------



## Lt Disher

sigma1914 said:


> What part of, "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned" do younot understand?


I don't understand the 'as planned' part. Was an unplanned 30 day extension part of the plan?


----------



## texasmoose

Lt Disher said:


> I don't understand the 'as planned' part. Was an unplanned 30 day extension part of the plan?


+1


----------



## sigma1914

Lt Disher said:


> I don't understand the 'as planned' part. Was an unplanned 30 day extension part of the plan?


It was ahead of schedule, now it's on schedule "as planned."


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

A watched satellite never moves. Why aren't any of you out celebrating Easter with your families? Some things are more important than TV!


----------



## Lt Disher

sigma1914 said:


> It was ahead of schedule, now it's on schedule "as planned."


Thanks for your reply. It would be nice to see that schedule which I know we will never be able to do. There is one thing that seems to indicate to the contrary though. The advertisements that originally talked about new availability in April have mysteriously dropped the April timeframe.


----------



## sigma1914

Lt Disher said:


> Thanks for your reply. It would be nice to see the schedule which I know we will never be able to do. There is one thing that seems to indicate to the contrary though. The advertisements that originally talked about new availability in April have mysteriously dropped the April timeframe.


Basing your position on ads was your first mistake.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Lt Disher said:


> Thanks for your reply. It would be nice to see the schedule which I know we will never be able to do. There is one thing that seems to indicate to the contrary though. The advertisements that originally talked about new availability in April have mysteriously dropped the April timeframe.


Read the FCC documents on post 1 and 2 of this thread, they're all public record so anyone can.


----------



## hdgreg

Doug Brott said:


> Do I need to make a post again?


No.......I went on vacation and was unwilling to pay $.55 a minute for slow cruise ship dsl, to find out what is up with D12...thankfully, you post was the first I read in the airport. I sure am glad I saved the $$$. :hurah:


----------



## V'ger

Lt Disher said:


> I don't understand the 'as planned' part. Was an unplanned 30 day extension part of the plan?


I am sure the 'plan' is changing on a daily basis. So Doug's statement is always true no matter how much things change.


----------



## Lt Disher

V'ger;2413131 said:


> I am sure the 'plan' is changing on a daily basis. So Doug's statement is always true no matter how much things change.


I understand that things are changing. Doug's statement said 'as planned'. That is past tense. It seems to imply that a plan was in place at some point in the past and things are going according to that plan. It does not have the sense of a plan that is changing day to day.

As for Coca-cola's note to read the first two posts for the timeframe, the one that stands out is the 'extension' request. That seems to kick the time schedule down the road a bit.

I'm sure everything is going to be fine with the satellite, I just dislike spin from wherever it comes, government, church or satellite companies. Clearly an extension was asked for and it seems not to have been part of the original plan.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom_S said:


> Obviously this is taking ALOT longer than planned.


Who's plan? Your's or DIRECTV's?


----------



## wavemaster

Doug Brott said:


> Who's plan? Your's or DIRECTV's?


I would say everyones.

Wasn't it D's intention to have it operational and transmitting more HD before the end of 2009? This is going back a couple years, but it does seem there have been a lot of delays.


----------



## woj027

Wasn't the plan for the NASA Mars Rovers to be only 90 days? And they went for 6 more years? 

Couldn't it be a good thing that there has been an extension of testing?


----------



## slimoli

Guys, no matter what we think, Directv is always right here


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> Guys, no matter what we think, Directv is always right here


Or maybe those spreading fear and don't know jack are panicking, rather than, listening to those who have direct info and contacts.


----------



## trdrjeff

Doug Brott said:


> Do I need to make a post again?


Come on guys, don't make dad pull the car over...


----------



## litzdog911

trdrjeff said:


> Come on guys, don't make dad pull the car over...


.... and slap us all up the side of the head!


----------



## Billzebub

Coca Cola Kid said:


> A watched satellite never moves. Why aren't any of you out celebrating Easter with your families? Some things are more important than TV!


While I agree with most of your post, to say "Some things are more important than TV" borders on blasphemy. :lol:


----------



## bb37

trdrjeff said:


> Come on guys, don't make dad pull the car over...





litzdog911 said:


> .... and slap us all up the side of the head!


Are we there yet? I gotta pee!


----------



## -Draino-

I have it on good authority that DTV has decided to relocate D12 to a lunar orbit in preparation for 12/21/2012.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

-Draino- said:


> I have it on good authority that DTV has decided to relocate D12 to a lunar orbit in preparation for 12/21/2012.


They bumped the date for needing to get the sat out of the way to 2015.

but I hear the 2020 asteroid will take out comcast hits


----------



## ATARI

bb37 said:


> Are we there yet? I gotta pee!


I :lol: at that one!!

Heard that line too many times last week during my family vacation.


----------



## Fog627

If I had a life, this thread would be ridiculously redundant and boring…Oh well, time to read the next "the sky is falling" post...


----------



## inkahauts

In any well rounded group, there will always be the nay sayer, the yay sayer, and the realist.. I'm a realist, and I ain't worried one way or the other.. 

People who say there is something wrong, there are far to many variables in play to deduct that there is, so until Directv says there is, there isn't...

Its timing is only annoying to us people here on dbstalk too, not the general public and the majority of their customers...


----------



## Tubaman-Z

All,

Don't schedule your lives around "as planned". Rather take comfort in "D12 is fine".


----------



## Newshawk

Coca Cola Kid said:


> A watched satellite never moves. Why aren't any of you out celebrating Easter with your families? Some things are more important than TV!


Now where did I hear that before?


----------



## P Smith

Some ppl here remind me porcelain china dog in a car - regardless of anything it always nodding as an answer to your rhetoric.


----------



## Newshawk

Lt Disher said:


> I understand that things are changing. Doug's statement said 'as planned'. That is past tense. It seems to imply that a plan was in place at some point in the past and things are going according to that plan. It does not have the sense of a plan that is changing day to day.
> 
> As for Coca-cola's note to read the first two posts for the timeframe, the one that stands out is the 'extension' request. That seems to kick the time schedule down the road a bit.
> 
> I'm sure everything is going to be fine with the satellite, I just dislike spin from wherever it comes, government, church or satellite companies. Clearly an extension was asked for and it seems not to have been part of the original plan.


You can't be Randy. I know Randy, I was a friend of his for seven years, and you're making too much sense to be him!


----------



## Tom Robertson

I paraphrase (since I'm not allowed to direct quote): D12 is fine.

For those keeping track, this was very recently; tho I can't say exactly when*. (It was not on April 1, by the way.) 

Cheers,
Tom

*By the way, I hope you all had a fantastic Holy week and particularly a Good Friday. (And didn't eat too many chocolate bunny ears today.)


----------



## Sixto

12:24pm ET today (#137) - no change.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> I paraphrase (since I'm not allowed to direct quote): D12 is fine.
> 
> For those keeping track, this was very recently; tho I can't say exactly when*. (It was not on April 1, by the way.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> *By the way, I hope you all had a fantastic Holy week and particularly a Good Friday. (And didn't eat too many chocolate bunny ears today.)


Thanks Tom.

Always good to hear your perspective ... yep, too much food!


----------



## Lord Vader

**BELCH**


----------



## SamC

I have not posted up till now, and I hope that this is taken for the spirt intended:

- "its only * " is an technically appropriate response to any discussion on almost any subject, save matters of life and death or perhaps religion. It does not further any discussion and should be unwelcome in any polite discussion. You do not have a long discussion about the new centerfielder for the Cubs, the new format of a local FM, the price of gasoline, the cost of canned peaches, the expected date of completion of the next local highway, the service on an airline, the newest I-phone aps' status, the length of women's skirts next year, or whatever, and, deep into it, come up with a rejoinder of it "only" being whatever. It is rude and pointless.


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> I paraphrase (since I'm not allowed to direct quote): D12 is fine.
> 
> For those keeping track, this was very recently; tho I can't say exactly when*. (It was not on April 1, by the way.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> *By the way, I hope you all had a fantastic Holy week and particularly a Good Friday. (And didn't eat too many chocolate bunny ears today.)


"And particularly a Good Friday" - is that a hint that the drift process began on Friday? Maybe not the actual drifting, but the the final prep work prior to sending the command for D12 to fire its engines?


----------



## Nick

Congrats to Sixto and his ardent followers on the occurrence of half-a-million views of this thread. :righton:

:balloons: :icon_band :balloons:


----------



## Carl Spock

I was away from this board for 15 months and only came back recently. Some things have remained exactly the same:

(1) The HD DVRs sometimes suffer audio dropouts.
(2) Everybody's idea of a perfect programming package is different.
(3) Some folks think it's a conspiracy by DirecTV to keep them in the dark and deny them their right to HDTV.

- and -

(4) Sixto runs a great thread detailing the process of getting the newest satellite up and running.


----------



## Carl Spock

And just to let you know, I've checked out D12 up close from my starship and it's working fine, except that it has started calling itself Nomad and asking about the Creator.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Indiana627 said:


> "And particularly a Good Friday" - is that a hint that the drift process began on Friday? Maybe not the actual drifting, but the the final prep work prior to sending the command for D12 to fire its engines?


I don't believe it had started moving on Good Friday. And from the TLEs, I'm guessing it hasn't started moving... yet. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't believe it had started moving on Good Friday. And from the TLEs, I'm guessing it hasn't started moving... yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Soon

And welcome back Spock.


----------



## bb37

Tom Robertson said:


> (And didn't eat too many chocolate bunny ears today.)


I'm bummed because I didn't get any Cadbury creme eggs. Went to one national chain drug store on Saturday afternoon and their Easter stuff was pretty well picked over. Then went to a statewide chain grocery store and their Easter stuff was gone already. Went to a region-wide chain grocery store Sunday evening (which in the past had a barrel of Cadbury eggs on Monday afternoon after Easter) and all they had was a few bas-carts of left overs.

So, I went home to read this thread for more disappointment. 

Come on, D12. Be my Cadbury creme egg!


----------



## Ira Lacher

Carl Spock said:


> And just to let you know, I've checked out D12 up close from my starship and it's working fine, except that it has started calling itself Nomad and asking about the Creator.


It's probably run into V'ger too, and D* isn't telling us . . .

:lol:


----------



## bigyfoot30

Look Folks:
Doug, Sixto and Satelliteracer have all said everything is fine.
D* continues to move channels in preparation for new HD content.
Wouldn't those two things seem to indicate that the folks that know what's going on have everything under control?


----------



## radiomandc

+1


----------



## bigyfoot30

lol,, after lurking on this site for 5 years, I finally decided to throw my 2 cents in.

BTW, Great job Sixto


----------



## FHSPSU67

:welcome_s
We need some sane optimistic dbstalkers around here


----------



## Maleman

This isn't meant to be negative but how many days does Directv have to get this thing going?

Thanks


----------



## Lancelink

FHSPSU67 said:


> We need some sane optimistic dbstalkers around here


Sanity is subjective and those in the best position to *know* are all singing the same optimistic tune. Given the situation of no 'offical' word (and apparently no reason for such) I don't know what else anyone could ask for. 
At this point I will be shocked if it turns out there is a serious problem with D12.


----------



## Ed Campbell

bigyfoot30 - Welcome aboard.


----------



## jilardi2

Maleman said:


> This isn't meant to be negative but how many days does Directv have to get this thing going?
> 
> Thanks


All the time in the world as long as they keep filing for extensions.


----------



## Doug Brott

V'ger;2413131 said:


> I am sure the 'plan' is changing on a daily basis. So Doug's statement is always true no matter how much things change.


The "plan" I've known about (which is very little) has not changed in over 10 weeks. No one has remotely indicated to me that the "plan" is different today. I'm confident things will play out on pretty much the same schedule as the day D12 was launched. :shrug:


----------



## nd bronco fan

Doug Brott said:


> The "plan" I've known about (which is very little) has not changed in over 10 weeks. No one has remotely indicated to me that the "plan" is different today. I'm confident things will play out on pretty much the same schedule as the day D12 was launched. :shrug:


Agreed, the plan has always been late April or early May. With drift time about 20 days if they get the move on this week it would fall with the original time frame that was announced. So IMO look for the drift to start this week.


----------



## Doug Brott

nd bronco fan said:


> Agreed, the plan has always been late April or early May. With drift time about 20 days if they get the move on this week it would fall with the original time frame that was announced. So IMO look for the drift to start this week.


Yup .. I have no idea when it's going to start, but I'd be looking for it to start this week as well.


----------



## curt8403

Doug Brott said:


> The "plan" I've known about (which is very little) has not changed in over 10 weeks. No one has remotely indicated to me that the "plan" is different today. I'm confident things will play out on pretty much the same schedule as the day D12 was launched. :shrug:


 TO paraphrase Maria (From Sound of Music)
I have confidence in sunshine
I have confidence in rain
I have confidence that D12 will soon be in it's lane
Besides which you see I have confidence in me


----------



## RD in Fla

Did the FCC grant the STA this morning on the drift?


----------



## nd bronco fan

RD in Fla said:


> Did the FCC grant the STA this morning on the drift?


Not that I know of, we are purely speculating.


----------



## dwrats_56

I noticed this morning that there is now a 103(ca) signal strength screen. All zeros on the signal strength though.

Has it been there for a while?

If it is new, my anticipation for D12 is UP.


----------



## RAD

dwrats_56 said:


> I noticed this morning that there is now a 103(ca) signal strength screen. All zeros on the signal strength though.
> 
> Has it been there for a while?
> 
> If it is new, my anticipation for D12 is UP.


That screen has been there for a few weeks now.


----------



## HarleyD

The "plan" probably centers on a task list and not a time frame.

As in...

"We locate the bird at 76 degrees. Once it is there we are going to conduct thorough testing of X, Y and Z. We will test these until we are satisfied. If during that testing we get unexpected results or notice something of interest (good or bad) then we are going to pursue it until we understand what we are seeing, as long as that takes. If we have to request additional STAs and extensions to do so then we will. We have unique testing opportunities while we are parked at 76 and we are going to get everything we want to get done accomplished before we drift to 103. It's an investment in our future technology and the larger overall business plan"

Based on a plan like that, things could be going exactly as "planned" and still take an indeterminate amount of time.

I would in fact prefer that they take that kind of approach.

As they say "Good, Fast or Cheap...pick two."


----------



## curt8403

dwrats_56 said:


> I noticed this morning that there is now a 103(ca) signal strength screen. All zeros on the signal strength though.
> 
> Has it been there for a while?
> 
> If it is new, my anticipation for D12 is UP.


that signal screen has been there for quite a while


----------



## dwrats_56

RAD said:


> That screen has been there for a few weeks now.





curt8403 said:


> that signal screen has been there for quite a while


 Thanks guys.

I hadn't looked for a couple of weeks because D12 hasn't started its drift.

Thanks again.

David


----------



## slimoli

HarleyD said:


> The "plan" probably centers on a task list and not a time frame.
> 
> ."


If there is no time frame it's not a plan, period. A task list is not a plan without targets and goals (expected time to conclusion).


----------



## Doug Brott

slimoli said:


> If there is no time frame it's not a plan, period. A task list is not a plan without targets and goals (expected time to conclusion).


perhaps a combination of both


----------



## BudShark

slimoli said:


> If there is no time frame it's not a plan, period. A task list is not a plan without targets and goals (expected time to conclusion).


Please don't confuse fact with your wants. A Plan, by definition, does not have to have a time frame. A plan is nothing more than a task list. Whether you attach exact time frames to said task list is purely up to the situation and owner of the plan.

plan   /plæn/ Show Spelled [plan] Show IPA noun, verb,planned, plan·ning. 
-noun
1.a scheme or method of acting, doing, proceeding, making, etc., developed in advance: battle plans. 
2.a design or scheme of arrangement: an elaborate plan for seating guests. 
3.a specific project or definite purpose: plans for the future. 
4.Also called plan view. a drawing made to scale to represent the top view or a horizontal section of a structure or a machine, as a floor layout of a building. 
5.a representation of a thing drawn on a plane, as a map or diagram: a plan of the dock area. 
6.(in perspective drawing) one of several planes in front of a represented object, and perpendicular to the line between the object and the eye. 
7.a formal program for specified benefits, needs, etc.: a pension plan.

-verb (used with object)
8.to arrange a method or scheme beforehand for (any work, enterprise, or proceeding): to plan a new recreation center. 
9.to make plans for: to plan one's vacation. 
10.to draw or make a diagram or layout of, as a building.

-verb (used without object)
11.to make plans: to plan ahead; to plan for one's retirement.


----------



## PkDog

A couple of questions:

1) Are there advantages to testing at 76 degrees compared to testing at their final destination?
2) Why would they not insert at their final position (using more help from the launch vehicle) rather than spend the 20-odd days of drift (and using more of the satellite fuel)? Safety reasons?


----------



## Beerstalker

Yes testing at 76 had advantages. I believe that if they were to try testing at 103 the tests could have caused issues with our service. By testing at 76 it would not interfere with our service.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

They were testing a BSS package at 76°. I'm not the expert on that but if you read through the first few posts in this thread you can learn a lot about that.


----------



## evan_s

PkDog said:


> A couple of questions:
> 
> 1) Are there advantages to testing at 76 degrees compared to testing at their final destination?
> 2) Why would they not insert at their final position (using more help from the launch vehicle) rather than spend the 20-odd days of drift (and using more of the satellite fuel)? Safety reasons?


1) My understanding of the testing is that they turn on a specific TP (either conus or spot), then rotate the sat so that they can measure the strength of the beam at a given spot (one of their uplink centers) and use this to verify that it aimed as expected and functioning as expected. Obviously this can't happen while it is in operation and since it shares the TPs for spots with d10 testing d12 at the same location would likely cause problems. You might be able to work around this by juggling the locations of some locals to free up testing space but it is much simpler to do it at a different location where there is nothing for it to interfere with.

2) The launch vehicle already got it as high as it could. The only way to get a higher launch from the launch vehicle would be to have a lighter sat which would generally mean less capabilities for spots or Conus tps, less fuel, less something. Also you could never have the launch vehicle take it all the way to it's GSO otherwise the launch vehicle would end up there too and would be a hazard as it would be uncontrolled. Typically the launch vehicle disconnects and falls back to earth to either be recovered or burned up when re-entering the atmosphere.


----------



## P Smith

_"Typically the launch vehicle disconnects and falls back to earth to either be recovered or burned up when re-entering the atmosphere"_
Actually two last parts of LV are usually still rotating there, like E14 BREEZE-M (tank) and BREEZE-M R/B at 327 x 13,654 km/2,546 x 33,991 km, inclination 49.659°/26.528° accordingly.
You could try to find same objects of D12 launch.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

BudShark said:


> Please don't confuse fact with your wants. A Plan, by definition, does not have to have a time frame. A plan is nothing more than a task list. Whether you attach exact time frames to said task list is purely up to the situation and owner of the plan.
> 
> plan   /plæn/ Show Spelled [plan] Show IPA noun, verb,planned, plan·ning.
> -noun
> 1.a scheme or method of acting, doing, proceeding, making, etc., developed in advance: battle plans.
> 2.a design or scheme of arrangement: an elaborate plan for seating guests.
> 3.a specific project or definite purpose: plans for the future.
> 4.Also called plan view. a drawing made to scale to represent the top view or a horizontal section of a structure or a machine, as a floor layout of a building.
> 5.a representation of a thing drawn on a plane, as a map or diagram: a plan of the dock area.
> 6.(in perspective drawing) one of several planes in front of a represented object, and perpendicular to the line between the object and the eye.
> 7.a formal program for specified benefits, needs, etc.: a pension plan.
> 
> -verb (used with object)
> 8.to arrange a method or scheme beforehand for (any work, enterprise, or proceeding): to plan a new recreation center.
> 9.to make plans for: to plan one's vacation.
> 10.to draw or make a diagram or layout of, as a building.
> 
> -verb (used without object)
> 11.to make plans: to plan ahead; to plan for one's retirement.


Plan -noun

7.5. Something without which the Russians do not take a dump. :lol:


----------



## wmb

Just a reminder, as to the plan, the original STA request dated Decmeber 1, 2009 had said that they would be testing for 30 days in a 60 day window starting once the satellite reached its position (No earlier than about Feb 15, 2010). It would reach its assigned location no later than about May 5, 2010.

This document does not say that the 30 day period would be consecutive days, but it reads in such a way as to make it seem as such. Not does it say when the testing would end. I think the RB-2A grant indicates that that satellites tesing will be integrated with D12s. The timing and coordination of the two testings seem wierd, and the extension may have simply been to resolve timing issues over the interspered tests. Basically, what they meant to say may have been we will test D12 for a total of 30 days during a 60 day period.

D12 Test: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395


----------



## slimoli

BudShark said:


> Please don't confuse fact with your wants. A Plan, by definition, does not have to have a time frame. A plan is nothing more than a task list. Whether you attach exact time frames to said task list is purely up to the situation and owner of the plan.
> 
> plan   /plæn/ Show Spelled [plan] Show IPA noun, verb,planned, plan·ning.
> -noun
> 1.a scheme or method of acting, doing, proceeding, making, etc., developed in advance: battle plans.
> 2.a design or scheme of arrangement: an elaborate plan for seating guests.
> 3.a specific project or definite purpose: plans for the future.
> 4.Also called plan view. a drawing made to scale to represent the top view or a horizontal section of a structure or a machine, as a floor layout of a building.
> 5.a representation of a thing drawn on a plane, as a map or diagram: a plan of the dock area.
> 6.(in perspective drawing) one of several planes in front of a represented object, and perpendicular to the line between the object and the eye.
> 7.a formal program for specified benefits, needs, etc.: a pension plan.
> 
> -verb (used with object)
> 8.to arrange a method or scheme beforehand for (any work, enterprise, or proceeding): to plan a new recreation center.
> 9.to make plans for: to plan one's vacation.
> 10.to draw or make a diagram or layout of, as a building.
> 
> -verb (used without object)
> 11.to make plans: to plan ahead; to plan for one's retirement.


Obviously we are talking about Corporate plan here. There is no plan without dates or time frame on any corporate that I know. You can't say " We will double our revenue", for example, you must say *WHEN* or you would be fired otherwise.


----------



## ATARI

wmb said:


> Just a reminder, as to the plan, the original STA request dated Decmeber 1, 2009 had said that they would be testing for 30 days in a 60 day window starting once the satellite reached its position (No earlier than about Feb 15, 2010). It would reach its assigned location no later than about May 5, 2010.
> 
> This document does not say that the 30 day period would be consecutive days, but it reads in such a way as to make it seem as such. Not does it say when the testing would end. I think the RB-2A grant indicates that that satellites tesing will be integrated with D12s. The timing and coordination of the two testings seem wierd, and the extension may have simply been to resolve timing issues over the interspered tests. Basically, what they meant to say may have been we will test D12 for a total of 30 days during a 60 day period.
> 
> D12 Test: http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=784395


So if it doesn't get parked at 103 by 5/5/2010, we can consider it behind schedule?


----------



## P Smith

ATARI said:


> So if it doesn't get parked at 103 by 5/5/2010, we can consider it behind schedule?


Add 20 days for drift to final location and watch its start around 4/15/10.


----------



## Doug Brott

I've been hopeful for a nice birthday present this year.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I've been hopeful for a nice birthday present this year.


How about a fat tax refund. :lol:

Oh..you meant D12 moving...


----------



## stephenC

It would be nice to have BBCAmerica in HD for the start of the new season of Doctor Who. But, I won't hold my breath.

http://www.bbcamerica.com/shows/doctor-who/index.jsp


----------



## johnner1999

maybe sixto can say what date he thinks the beast should start to move; before we all think the sky is falling?


----------



## wmb

ATARI said:


> So if it doesn't get parked at 103 by 5/5/2010, we can consider it behind schedule?


No, it would be behind ABOUT schedule. I like the wording... it will be in place no later than about May 5, 2010. Way to sneak in a weasel word! e.e. cummings would be proud (anyone lived in a pretty how town )


----------



## Sixto

johnner1999 said:


> maybe sixto can say what date he thinks the beast should start to move; before we all think the sky is falling?


For April "live", we anticipated a start of Drift last week (or earlier), which assumed a 20-day Drift and a week to test at 103°.

The original FCC filing stated arrival at 103° "no later then about 5/5", which is still very doable.


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> For April "live", we anticipated a start of Drift last week (or earlier), which assumed a 20-day Drift and a week to test at 103°.
> 
> The original FCC filing stated arrival at 103° "no later then about 5/5", which is still very doable.


THANK YOU, Sixto. This is exactly what some of us have been babbling about for the last several hundred posts. I know we might have pulled it out of the filings, but we did not. Now that we know that the plan was to arrive at 103 by about 5/5 we can now see that it is still on schedule (as planned). This is all we were talking about. It is clear that the 30 day extension can fit easity into this plan.


----------



## sswheeler

Not to beat a dead horse, but you know Ole' Charlie is watching this drooling over that fact that that he may get his bird live before D*


----------



## LameLefty

sswheeler said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but you know Ole' Charlie is watching this drooling over that fact that that he may get his bird live before D*


Big deal. With the fuel it took to get it parked that fast, he either has a much less capable bird or one with a shorter operational life.


----------



## Sixto

Update #138, no change.


----------



## DodgerKing

sswheeler said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but you know Ole' Charlie is watching this drooling over that fact that that he may get his bird live before D*


It doesn't matter. E14 is not going to be used to expand their national HD. It is being used to balance, replace, and provide more spots.


----------



## P Smith

Quoting harsh about E14 fast turn on 'displeasure' by other ppl:


> What I'm denying is that the "rush" that they put on it impacted its projected useful life in any significant way. That distinction makes insertion of "rushing" as a concern in this thread a Red Herring.


----------



## V'ger

Ira Lacher said:


> It's probably run into V'ger too, and D* isn't telling us . . .
> 
> :lol:


Watch it, I will now have to digitize you and put you into my database of carbon life forms like I did the Klingons. :lol:


----------



## johnner1999

DodgerKing said:


> It doesn't matter. E14 is not going to be used to expand their national HD. It is being used to balance, replace, and provide more spots.


I think e-14 is going to add band-with -- BUT -- as you point out rebalance as well since E* has TWO satellite fleets in use (not 2 sats mind you; but fleets) one for the east cost and one for the west cost. Which actually for us east cost folks it does make some logical sense, since for us the D* fleet of birds is pretty low on the horizon (makes trees an issue; where if I used the current E* Eastern Arc I'd have zero issues and as assume when my neighbor's trees grow an other foot or so I'll have to look at switch to Dish :-( This aside it does seem like a waste to have two fleets...


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> *Quoting harsh *about E14 fast turn on 'displeasure' by other ppl:


I stopped reading after the *bold *part.


----------



## azarby

Sixto said:


> Update #138, no change.


Not really,
If you notice, the appogee is slightly higher, higher than any recorded TLE since 3/24 and the gap is wider also. This may mean a start to the drift process.


----------



## SuperZ06

flyingtigerfan said:


> Plan -noun
> 
> 7.5. Something without which the Russians do not take a dump. :lol:


:lol::lol:


----------



## Sixto

azarby said:


> Not really,
> If you notice, the appogee is slightly higher, higher than any recorded TLE since 3/24 and the gap is wider also. This may mean a start to the drift process.


Maybe, maybe not. Every other theory I've had for the past 2 weeks hasn't panned out. Guess we'll try this one! 

Been 15 gap many times before.


----------



## P Smith

Best time of the D12 at 76W was:


Code:


092 03-01 05:52:54 35,785 x 35,789      4 +16.35H 62.23D  76.01°W  0.06°S  0.07°
091 02-28 13:32:07 35,785 x 35,789      4 + 6.04H 61.55D  76.00°W  0.02°N  0.08°
090 02-28 07:29:47 35,785 x 35,789      4 +24.97H 61.30D  76.00°W  0.05°S  0.08°
089 02-27 06:31:43 35,785 x 35,789      4 +42.98H 60.26D  76.00°W  0.06°S  0.08°
088 02-25 11:32:55 35,785 x 35,789      4 +31.87H 58.47D  75.99°W  0.02°S  0.08°
086 02-24 03:40:25 35,784 x 35,789      5 +45.94H 57.14D  75.99°W  0.04°S  0.09°
085 02-22 05:43:43 35,785 x 35,788      3 +61.26H 55.22D  75.99°W  0.07°S  0.09°
084 02-19 16:28:17 35,785 x 35,788      3 +13.52H 52.67D  76.00°W  0.06°N  0.09°
083 02-19 02:57:08 35,785 x 35,788      3 +22.27H 52.11D  76.00°W  0.04°S  0.10°
082 02-18 04:41:13 35,785 x 35,788      3 +24.18H 51.18D  76.00°W  0.06°S  0.10°
081 02-17 04:30:43 35,785 x 35,788      3 +25.65H 50.17D  76.00°W  0.03°S  0.10°
080 02-16 02:51:46 35,784 x 35,787      3 +13.98H 49.10D  76.00°W  0.03°S  0.10°
079 02-15 12:53:01 35,785 x 35,787      2 +21.81H 48.52D  76.01°W  0.01°S  0.10°
077 02-14 15:04:20 35,784 x 35,787      3 +23.65H 47.61D  76.02°W  0.03°S  0.11°
075 02-13 15:25:25 35,784 x 35,787      3 +36.80H 46.63D  76.02°W  0.04°S  0.10°
072 02-12 02:37:23 35,784 x 35,787      3 +12.07H 45.09D  76.04°W  0.02°S  0.11°


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Quoting harsh about E14 fast turn on 'displeasure' by other ppl:


Since when does Harsh know jack-diddly-squat about launch vehicles, spacecraft design and orbital mechanics except what he reads on the 'web? 

Proton-M/Briz-M can only launch so much mass into orbit, period. You can't fool the laws of physics.


----------



## loudo

LameLefty said:


> Since when does Harsh know jack-diddly-squat about launch vehicles, spacecraft design and orbital mechanics except what he reads on the 'web?


He doesn't, but he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, the other night. :lol:


----------



## Inches

Carl Spock said:


> And just to let you know, I've checked out D12 up close from my starship and it's working fine, except that it has started calling itself Nomad and asking about the Creator.


You mean Roykirk?


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> Since when does Harsh know jack-diddly-squat about launch vehicles, spacecraft design and orbital mechanics except what he reads on the 'web?
> 
> Proton-M/Briz-M can only launch so much mass into orbit, period. You can't fool the laws of physics.


I've heard this a few times, but its been years since physics class. Seems that the kinetic energy at delivery to GTO from the Proton is the same for both, as is the kinetic energy at GSO. The difference between the two kinetic energies is the amount of energy required to go from GTO to GSO. This energy is coming from fuel.

What am I missing?


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> I've heard this a few times, but its been years since physics class. Seems that the kinetic energy at delivery to GTO from the Proton is the same for both, as is the kinetic energy at GSO. The difference between the two kinetic energies is the amount of energy required to go from GTO to GSO. This energy is coming from fuel.
> 
> What am I missing?


Not a darn thing, really.


----------



## P Smith

wmb said:


> I've heard this a few times, but its been years since physics class. Seems that the kinetic energy at delivery to GTO from the Proton is the same for both, as is the kinetic energy at GSO. The difference between the two kinetic energies is the amount of energy required to go from GTO to GSO. This energy is coming from fuel.
> 
> What am I missing?


EchoStar XIV communications satellite
SS/L 1300
Separated spacecraft mass: 6,384 kg (14,034 lbs)
Dry mass (kg): 3223

DIRECTV 12 satellite
Platform: 702
Separated Mass: 5900 kg
Dry mass (kg): 3556

[Mass of propellant you should calculate by yourself].


----------



## Carl Spock

Inches said:


> Carl Spock said:
> 
> 
> 
> And just to let you know, I've checked out D12 up close from my starship and it's working fine, except that it has started calling itself Nomad and asking about the Creator.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean Roykirk?
Click to expand...

 Oops. Of course I did.

I mixed those two plotlines together, but then, so did Roddenberry. There is a reason Star Trek: The Motion Picture is sometimes called _Where Nomad Has Gone Before._


----------



## inkahauts

P Smith said:


> EchoStar XIV communications satellite
> SS/L 1300
> Separated spacecraft mass: 6,384 kg (14,034 lbs)
> Dry mass (kg): 3223
> 
> DIRECTV 12 satellite
> Platform: 702
> Separated Mass: 5900 kg
> Dry mass (kg): 3556
> 
> [Mass of propellant you should calculate by yourself].


So they had a ton more fuel on board than D12 did... Man, you'd think they would have spared that and then had that sat last even longer... But charley wants money today, not tomorrow, he probably won;t even have the company when this bird needs to replace... So what does he care about life expectancy....


----------



## jacmyoung

P Smith said:


> EchoStar XIV communications satellite
> SS/L 1300
> Separated spacecraft mass: 6,384 kg (14,034 lbs)
> Dry mass (kg): 3223
> 
> DIRECTV 12 satellite
> Platform: 702
> Separated Mass: 5900 kg
> Dry mass (kg): 3556
> 
> [Mass of propellant you should calculate by yourself].


I think what he was trying to tell us is, E14 can burn 1/3 of its fat reaching D12 and still have enough left to wrestle with D12.


----------



## cbayus

jacmyoung said:


> I think what he was trying to tell us is, E14 can burn 1/3 of its fat reaching D12 and still have enough left to wrestle with D12.


If memory serves me the E14 and all Loral 1300 sats use a conventional bi-propellant system that requires a great deal more consumables than the Boeing 702/D12 XIPS system.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> I think what he was trying to tell us is, E14 can burn 1/3 of its fat reaching D12 and still have enough left to wrestle with D12.


Ummm....what?!?


----------



## RobertE

P Smith said:


> EchoStar XIV communications satellite
> SS/L 1300
> Separated spacecraft mass: 6,384 kg (14,034 lbs)
> Dry mass (kg): 3223
> 
> DIRECTV 12 satellite
> Platform: 702
> Separated Mass: 5900 kg
> Dry mass (kg): 3556
> 
> [Mass of propellant you should calculate by yourself].


Who cares? This is a thread about D12. The Dish forums are -->

:backtotop


----------



## rrrick8

RobertE said:


> Who cares? This is a thread about D12. The Dish forums are -->
> 
> :backtotop


:up: :righton:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

RobertE said:


> Who cares? This is a thread about D12. The Dish forums are -->
> 
> :backtotop


Is it there yet? :sure:


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

TheRatPatrol said:


> Is it there yet? :sure:


Nope. We asked too many times and Dad turned the satellite around and went back to Russia.


----------



## P Smith

cbayus said:


> If memory serves me the E14 and all Loral 1300 sats use a conventional bi-propellant system that requires a great deal more consumables than the Boeing 702/D12 XIPS system.


So, you just agreed Loral did prepare that sat for long life by adding more an on-board liquid propellant.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> So, you just agreed Loral did prepare that sat for long life by adding more an on-board liquid propellant.


Yep, at the cost of less operational payload (and hence lower capabilities).

Alternately (or possibly overlapping), the satellite was chosen because of its lower mass, thus allowing more fuel for a faster final orbital insertion.

NOW BACK TO TOPIC. This is not an E-14 thread.


----------



## cbayus

P Smith said:


> So, you just agreed Loral did prepare that sat for long life by adding more an on-board liquid propellant.


Yes if E14 didn't do the drag race to its current location, but because they did; either the life has been shortened or they will have to do extremely fuel efficient orbital maneuvers.from here on out.

Either way I agree with LameLefty.... Back on topic. We have our own satellite to talk about.


----------



## curt8403

cbayus said:


> Yes if E14 didn't do the drag race to its current location, but because they did; either the life has been shortened or they will have to do extremely fuel efficient orbital maneuvers.from here on out.
> 
> Either way I agree with LameLefty.... Back on topic. We have our own satellite to talk about.


 yes, and we are currently waiting for confirmation of Drift


----------



## tcusta00

Thanks for the update last night, Sixto.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Its my 30th birthday and I want D12 to start drifting.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Its my 30th birthday and I want D12 to start drifting.


Happy Birthday....and sorry.....


----------



## jefbal99

I don't think we'll see drift until the new applications from last week are approved.


----------



## Lancelink

And conversely, I would be surprised if the applications are approved (STA extensions granted) more than a few hours before the drift begins.


----------



## Athlon646464

I upgraded my D12 to an HD DVR last month.

What are the odds that it is *my* old D12 that is up in space now? :grin:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Athlon646464 said:


> I upgraded my D12 to an HD DVR last month.
> 
> What are the odds that it is *my* old D12 that is up in space now? :grin:


Ummmmm....No. 

However, with the test channels showing up, I'm even more encouraged that we'll be seeing new HD in a reasonable amount of time...and before anyone asks, by the summer time. 

Mike


----------



## Lancelink

Athlon646464 said:


> What are the odds that it is *my* old D12 that is up in space now? :grin:


Probably about the same as *you* being installed as the new CEO of D* at the next shareholder's meeting. 

Sorry, just couldn't resist.


----------



## wmb

RobertE said:


> Who cares? This is a thread about D12. The Dish forums are -->


Actually, I kind of do. And, I am sure that there are others. Choices were made in the design and operation of D12. Its interesting to find out what some of those choices were.

As an engineer, in much that I do, I am making tradeoffs. Chosing one technology because it fits a particular need... cost, performance, life span, etc. The way I know and understand whether I made a good choice is to know what the options are.

The fun part about this thread is that it meanders, and it seems to do so intentionally. We should have some fun and its nice to learn a few thigns along the way.

Anyhow, it breaks up the monotony and beats the "are we there yet" type of posts that spring up every now and again.


----------



## jefbal99

Lancelink said:


> And conversely, I would be surprised if the application is approved (STA granted) more than a few hours before the drift begins.


I agree with you 100%


----------



## JeffBowser

I agree, and it's far superior to the inane chatter about science fiction characters.



wmb said:


> Actually, I kind of do. And, I am sure that there are others. Choices were made in the design and operation of D12. Its interesting to find out what some of those choices were.
> 
> As an engineer, in much that I do, I am making tradeoffs. Chosing one technology because it fits a particular need... cost, performance, life span, etc. The way I know and understand whether I made a good choice is to know what the options are.
> 
> The fun part about this thread is that it meanders, and it seems to do so intentionally. We should have some fun and its nice to learn a few thigns along the way.
> 
> Anyhow, it breaks up the monotony and beats the "are we there yet" type of posts that spring up every now and again.


----------



## Sixto

Update #139 (today), no change.


----------



## rey_1178

Sixto said:


> Update #138 (today), no change.


----------



## Sixto

The original Drift STA, and two Earth Station to D12 STAs, expire today (4/6/2010).

The three extensions have yet to be approved.


----------



## Avder

:bang:bang:bang
START! MOVING! YOU! STUPID! SATELLITE!
WE! WANT! MORE! HIGH! DEF! TEE! VEE!
:bang:bang:bang


----------



## George_T

Sixto said:


> The original Drift STA, and two Earth Station to D12 STAs, expire today (4/6/2010).
> 
> The three extensions have yet to be approved.


So Sixto, translate this to us dummies who struggle with the details. Does this mean that D12 *can't* move after today unless the extention filed for is offically approved? I thought that the extention approval was merely a formality.


----------



## T-Hefner

Sixto said:


> The original Drift STA, and two Earth Station to D12 STAs, expire today (4/6/2010).
> 
> The three extensions have yet to be approved.


So ya would think they get there answer sometime today, or otherwise there late...possible fine? or they kinda let stuff like that slide...?

-Tim


----------



## slimoli

Sixto said:


> The three extensions have yet to be approved.


I guess that's the first time it is taking so long, am I right ?


----------



## Sixto

George_T said:


> So Sixto, translate this to us dummies who struggle with the details. Does this mean that D12 *can't* move after today unless the extention filed for is offically approved? I thought that the extention approval was merely a formality.





T-Hefner said:


> So ya would think they get there answer sometime today, or otherwise there late...possible fine? or they kinda let stuff like that slide...?
> 
> -Tim





slimoli said:


> I guess that's the first time it is taking so long, am I right ?


Would assume that it can't move until the extension is approved.

And the extension has not yet been approved.

Usually it's no issue to approve, so would assume that either it's about to be approved, or the FCC is waiting for some indication of when the extension is needed (and then it will be approved).

For other STAs, the grant has been somewhat close to when the STA was needed (not necessarily when requested).


----------



## hidefman

Sixto said:


> The original Drift STA, and two Earth Station to D12 STAs, expire today (4/6/2010).
> 
> The three extensions have yet to be approved.


I certainly hope this in NO way has anything to do with Directv's stock being halted after hours pending news. Say it isn't so Sixto.

....more likely financial news related to being bought or sold.... AT&T heavy rumor out there right now....

fingers crossed that's all it is....


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> ...so would assume that either it's about to be approved, or the FCC is waiting for some indication of when the extension is needed (and then it will be approved)...


Does this imply the possibility that the time for the move has not been decided? If so why? Still some test to be done?


----------



## RAD

Nothing to do with D12, Malone had to sell his preferred DirecTV stock and give up chairman of the board position.


----------



## hidefman

Malone resigns. Required by the FCC to give up share equity and Chair as part of Liberty deal a while back. Carry on D12.... erhhhh.... I mean move on D12.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> The original Drift STA, and two Earth Station to D12 STAs, expire today (4/6/2010).
> 
> The three extensions have yet to be approved.


So that means no more testing is allowed to occur either, until they get an extension.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> So that means no more testing is allowed to occur either, until they get an extension.


The IOT(testing) STA was approved on 3/19/2010 for 30 days. That's fine.

It's the D12 Drift, and communication from the two earth stations to D12 during the Drift, that needs to be approved. Fairly certain that DirecTV is not waiting on the FCC.


----------



## Maleman

I am far from being a techy but the longer this goes the more fear I have


----------



## V'ger

P Smith said:


> EchoStar XIV communications satellite
> SS/L 1300
> Separated spacecraft mass: 6,384 kg (14,034 lbs)
> Dry mass (kg): 3223
> 
> DIRECTV 12 satellite
> Platform: 702
> Separated Mass: 5900 kg
> Dry mass (kg): 3556
> 
> [Mass of propellant you should calculate by yourself].


OK. D12 is 333Kg heavier empty. You have to account for more mass to hold the BSS spotbeam transponder arrays, additional power, so increased size of solar arrays and power supplies, more or larger batteries, generally a larger satellite overall because of BSS. I would expect that the increased mass means it will take more reserve fuel for station keeping than that 'other' satellite and on-orbit life may be equal. That may explain why D12 is being operated so fuel frugally.


----------



## Mark Walters

Maleman said:


> I am far from being a techy but the longer this goes the more fear I have


very disappointing :nono2:


----------



## flapperdink

Maleman said:


> I am far from being a techy but the longer this goes the more fear I have


i'm far from fearful. anxious? VERY


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> Would assume that it can't move until the extension is approved.
> 
> And the extension has not yet been approved.
> 
> Usually it's no issue to approve, so would assume that either it's about to be approved, or the FCC is waiting for some indication of when the extension is needed (and then it will be approved).
> 
> For other STAs, the grant has been somewhat close to when the STA was needed (not necessarily when requested).


My question on this is whether the grants are known and available to DirecTV before they are made available pulicly. At some point, we may be waiting for something that the people that matter already have. Basically, is it possible that DirecTV can have the fax today and act on it even if it isn't posted until Friday.

It is also worth noting that the FCC grants see to be amazingly timely.


----------



## LameLefty

V'ger;2415575 said:


> I would expect that the increased mass means it will take more reserve fuel for station keeping than that 'other' satellite and on-orbit life may be equal. That may explain why D12 is being operated so fuel frugally.


The ISP of a XIPS is far higher than that of a bi-propellant system. Think: diesel powered work truck vs. Prius.


----------



## slimoli

Maleman said:


> I am far from being a techy but the longer this goes the more fear I have


Despite the optimism from the guys with more than 10K posts, the only real fact we have so far suggests we won't see new HD channels in April any longer. I would love to be wrong, though.


----------



## P Smith

Then shift your expectation to May and just wait a month for now.


----------



## slimoli

P Smith said:


> Then shift your expectation to May and just wait a month for now.


I would be happy with May but the real drama is not really knowing what is going on with the D12. Some people say "it's according to plan" and other say "a plan doesn't have to have a date".


----------



## Lord Vader

So DirecTV's "plan" was to just send it up there and "we'll get to it later"? 

How does that old cliche go--those who fail to plan plan to fail.


----------



## BudShark

Lord Vader said:


> So DirecTV's "plan" was to just send it up there and "we'll get to it later"?
> 
> How does that old cliche go--those who fail to plan plan to fail.


Ummm... No.


----------



## BudShark

slimoli said:


> I would be happy with May but the real drama is not really knowing what is going on with the D12. Some people say "it's according to plan" and other say "a plan doesn't have to have a date".


Whats the first thing on a plan to change? The date.

Have you ever done a large, multi-corporation, highly dependent on previous processes, plan?

It has windows, not dates. A 2 week window to test A. Sometimes you finish early. But it doesn't mean B is ready to go, so sometimes it waits. Or you have a 3 week window to do C, but D is ready to go early and someone asks if D requires C. No? Then D moves ahead of C, possibly delaying C by a few days.

This non-sense about the fact that our "guessed" dates haven't been hit, or the extensions meaning they had no plan or something went wrong, needs to seriously stop. Its not like they are building a new computer. They have launched a multi-million dollar device, that has 1 shot at getting deployed right, and is carrying a package that no one has ever seen or used and needed to be thoroughly tested.

My guess? They are still within their "window" of deployment hence, its according to "plan". But along that "plan" certain items took longer, required further testing, and/or had a ground control delay. Not a big flippin deal regardless of what the naysayers want you to think.


----------



## SteveHas

Could this delay be marketing related?
i.e. delaying the switch flip on D12/launch of new channels to be timed with a new marketing blitz?
Just a thought


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SteveHas said:


> Could this delay be marketing related?
> i.e. delaying the switch flip on D12/launch of new channels to be timed with a new marketing blitz?
> Just a thought


It's possible but I don't see how that would delay the drift. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## CTJon

Got it! What is the record for thread size? DirecTv is monitoring this thread, waiting until we break a new size record and then will drift D12!:lol:


----------



## BudShark

Just over halfway to the D10 thread... we'll be waiting a while if thats the case.


----------



## Sixto

Today's update #140 - similar (75.99°).


----------



## thelucky1

BudShark said:


> Whats the first thing on a plan to change? The date.
> 
> Have you ever done a large, multi-corporation, highly dependent on previous processes, plan?
> 
> It has windows, not dates. A 2 week window to test A. Sometimes you finish early. But it doesn't mean B is ready to go, so sometimes it waits. Or you have a 3 week window to do C, but D is ready to go early and someone asks if D requires C. No? Then D moves ahead of C, possibly delaying C by a few days.
> 
> This non-sense about the fact that our "guessed" dates haven't been hit, or the extensions meaning they had no plan or something went wrong, needs to seriously stop. Its not like they are building a new computer. They have launched a multi-million dollar device, that has 1 shot at getting deployed right, and is carrying a package that no one has ever seen or used and needed to be thoroughly tested.
> 
> My guess? They are still within their "window" of deployment hence, its according to "plan". But along that "plan" certain items took longer, required further testing, and/or had a ground control delay. Not a big flippin deal regardless of what the naysayers want you to think.


BudShark As a corporate owner myself I think your analysis is right on. This makes the most sense out of all the arguments in this thread.


----------



## jacmyoung

Not a naysayer, but there is a very valid point here, unfortunately most DirecTV folks want to stop this point from being made here, calling it off the topic.

While the D12 plan was viewed as DirecTV’s opportunity to lead the HD offering, it appears DISH now has a chance to get its E14 into service sooner, which may claim its HD leadership again. Not that I really care, I have more than enough HD already and DISH can’t match the DirecTV HDDVR price structure.

But we are talking marketing here. The delay of D12 and the rush of E14 create an interesting situation, IMHO is relevant. Just because the issue may make some people feel uncomfortable, does not make it irrelevant.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

thelucky1 said:


> BudShark As a corporate owner myself I think your analysis is right on. This makes the most sense out of all the arguments in this thread.


Agree....also have seen the same thing in the real world.


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> Not a naysayer, but there is a very valid point here, unfortunately most DirecTV folks want to stop this point from being made here, calling it off the topic.
> 
> While the D12 plan was viewed as DirecTV's opportunity to lead the HD offering, it appears DISH now has a chance to get its E14 into service sooner, which may claim its HD leadership again. Not that I really care, I have more than enough HD already and DISH can't match the DirecTV HDDVR price structure.
> 
> But we are talking marketing here. The delay of D12 and the rush of E14 create an interesting situation, IMHO is relevant. Just because the issue may make some people feel uncomfortable, does not make it irrelevant.



Seriously? I don't think anyone hear thinks that this is significant in anyway. If Dish wants to rush a billion dollar sat to beat DirecTV by a week... well go for it. Have fun. I seriously would be more upset or have more questions if I heard or suspected that DirecTV was "rushing" something to beat Dish to service.

I seriously doubt either one of them is going to get any significant # of subscribers as a result of being first by a week or two. 6 months - maybe. 14 days? Yeah right.

Back to topic.


----------



## dpeters11

jacmyoung said:


> Not a naysayer, but there is a very valid point here, unfortunately most DirecTV folks want to stop this point from being made here, calling it off the topic.
> 
> While the D12 plan was viewed as DirecTV's opportunity to lead the HD offering, it appears DISH now has a chance to get its E14 into service sooner, which may claim its HD leadership again. Not that I really care, I have more than enough HD already and DISH can't match the DirecTV HDDVR price structure.
> 
> But we are talking marketing here. The delay of D12 and the rush of E14 create an interesting situation, IMHO is relevant. Just because the issue may make some people feel uncomfortable, does not make it irrelevant.


This isn't a E14 thread, but the only way that Dish could legitimately use it in marketing if E14 comes online first is in individual markets that DirecTV doesn't serve, at least in HD. It's not being used for new national HD. So if Dish adds locals in Sheboygan, and DirecTV doesn't, they can use that, but it's limited marketing. Not picking on Sheboygan, just always liked the name.


----------



## slimoli

jacmyoung said:


> Not a naysayer, but there is a very valid point here, unfortunately most DirecTV folks want to stop this point from being made here, calling it off the topic.
> 
> While the D12 plan was viewed as DirecTV's opportunity to lead the HD offering, it appears DISH now has a chance to get its E14 into service sooner, which may claim its HD leadership again. Not that I really care, I have more than enough HD already and DISH can't match the DirecTV HDDVR price structure.
> 
> But we are talking marketing here. The delay of D12 and the rush of E14 create an interesting situation, IMHO is relevant. Just because the issue may make some people feel uncomfortable, does not make it irrelevant.


Great post and I agree 100%. We are minority here,though. It looks like we must praise Directv ALWAYS , regardless of any concern or thought. Directv posted on the website "New HD coming this April" and later removed the date (or "window"). Is there a plan ? Is the plan on track ? I was a Managing Director of a large corporate and in 30 years working I had to change plans AND DATES many times but always made clear what was going on and why.

I have no problem whatsoever with dates being changed, my beef is with the "everything is fine" or "according to plan" .


----------



## jacmyoung

dpeters11 said:


> This isn't a E14 thread, but the only way that Dish could legitimately use it in marketing if E14 comes online first is in individual markets that DirecTV doesn't serve, ...


Did you read DISH's press release after the successful launch of E14?

I am not trying to make this into an E14 thread, but due to the D12 delay, there is a chance that DISH gets to claim first. The point is clearly relevant to the D12's delay, regardless if you think it is significant or not, and keep in mind I have already said it is not significant to me, but it is still relevant, not off the topic.


----------



## Hoosier205

...and? They don't owe any of us an explanation. Everything is subject to change. Get over it.


----------



## rebelDog62

When D12 starts to drift what exactly is going to happen to the numbers for Perigee, Apogee, Long, Lat, etc? How will these all change and what would be the first indication that D12 is drifting? What will change exactly?

This is only my second post ever on dbstalk. So if this has been discussed already I apologize.


----------



## jacmyoung

slimoli said:


> Great post and I agree 100%. We are minority here,though. It looks like we must praise Directv ALWAYS , regardless of any concern or thought. Directv posted on the website "New HD coming this April" and later removed the date (or "window"). Is there a plan ? Is the plan on track ? I was a Managing Director of a large corporate and in 30 years working I had to change plans AND DATES many times but always made clear what was going on and why.
> 
> I have no problem whatsoever with dates being changed, my beef is with the "everything is fine" or "according to plan" .


I don't even have any beef with that, plans can change, windows can be missed, DirecTV does not always have to make it clear to us. My beef is with those who use this "off the topic" thing to try to silence a point raised by some, because they do not like to hear it.


----------



## oldfantom

rebelDog62 said:


> When D12 starts to drift what exactly is going to happen to the numbers for Perigee, Apogee, Long, Lat, etc? How will these all change and what would be the first indication that D12 is drifting? What will change exactly?
> 
> This is only my second post ever on dbstalk. So if this has been discussed already I apologize.


When D12 stars to drift 2 things will happen, Sixto will post a TLE showing movement from 76 here and in post one of the thread (read posts one an two, Sixto explains everything). The second thing that will happen is the thread will explode with posts about the move. Sixto has a thread that only contains significant updates and no discussion. Subscribe to that and you will get an email when the drift happens.

BTW, Welcome!


----------



## trainman

dpeters11 said:


> So if Dish adds locals in Sheboygan, and DirecTV doesn't, they can use that, but it's limited marketing. Not picking on Sheboygan, just always liked the name.


I believe Sheboygan's in the Milwaukee market, so they already have DirecTV locals. Another crisis averted!


----------



## rrrick8

Sixto said:


> Today's update #140 - similar (75.99°).


Maybe backing up a bit to get a running start.


----------



## SpaceComo

rebelDog62 said:


> When D12 starts to drift what exactly is going to happen to the numbers for Perigee, Apogee, Long, Lat, etc? How will these all change and what would be the first indication that D12 is drifting? What will change exactly?
> 
> This is only my second post ever on dbstalk. So if this has been discussed already I apologize.


The apogee and perigee will increase about 100Km in a 12 hour period. The period will decrease to something like 0.999 days. Sixto will also blanket the thread with annoucements.
:hurah:


----------



## LameLefty

rebelDog62 said:


> When D12 starts to drift what exactly is going to happen to the numbers for Perigee, Apogee, Long, Lat, etc? How will these all change and what would be the first indication that D12 is drifting? What will change exactly?
> 
> This is only my second post ever on dbstalk. So if this has been discussed already I apologize.


It's been discussed but you're new so we'll be polite. :grin:

(The Search function is actually pretty darn good on this forum, though, unlike a lot of others).



SpaceComo said:


> The apogee and perigee will increase about 100Km in a 12 hour period. The period will decrease to something like 0.999 days. Sixto will also blanket the thread with annoucements.
> :hurah:


To add, the latitude won't change much at all (should be darn close to zero because the orbital inclination is equatorial) and the longitude will start to move west towards 103º.


----------



## houskamp

here's a question:
How much wander are they typicaly allowed? I see all the way from 75.99 to 76.09..


----------



## LameLefty

houskamp said:


> here's a question:
> How much wander are they typicaly allowed? I see all the way from 75.99 to 76.09..


Operational station-keeping is pretty tight. 0.025º E-W is allowed by the authorization from the FCC. That works out to (very roughly) 11.5 miles in either direction.


----------



## mobandit

slimoli said:


> Great post and I agree 100%. We are minority here,though. It looks like we must praise Directv ALWAYS , regardless of any concern or thought. Directv posted on the website "New HD coming this April" and later removed the date (or "window"). Is there a plan ? Is the plan on track ? I was a Managing Director of a large corporate and in 30 years working I had to change plans AND DATES many times but always made clear what was going on and why.
> 
> I have no problem whatsoever with dates being changed, my beef is with the "everything is fine" or "according to plan" .


But to whom did you release your plan? To your corporate structure? Absolutely. To Joe Q. Public, consumer of your corporate goods? Doubtful. I am not a fanboy, but really, D* has absolutely no responsibility to me, a subscriber among millions, to inform me *IF* their internal plan for deploying a new satellite goes off-schedule. They have made no *PROMISES* to us. They announced some things, but I never saw (nor was naive enough to imply) that I had been promised something.


----------



## P Smith

mobandit said:


> But to whom did you release your plan? To your corporate structure? Absolutely. To Joe Q. Public, consumer of your corporate goods? Doubtful. I am not a fanboy, but really, D* has absolutely no responsibility to me, a subscriber among millions, to inform me *IF* their internal plan for deploying a new satellite goes off-schedule. They have made no *PROMISES* to us. They announced some things, but I never saw (nor was naive enough to imply) that I had been promised something.


To shareholders who did invest and would invest.


----------



## dpeters11

trainman said:


> I believe Sheboygan's in the Milwaukee market, so they already have DirecTV locals. Another crisis averted!


Could be, I just chose a city as an example without really checking it. Just liked the name, and I knew Rabbit Hash got locals.


----------



## slimoli

P Smith said:


> To shareholders who did invest and would invest.


Yep, and that's *public* information.


----------



## jilardi2

dpeters11 said:


> Could be, I just chose a city as an example without really checking it. Just liked the name, and I knew Rabbit Hash got locals.


is that a town full of hash smoking rabbits, that would be great, like a south park episode or something


----------



## P Smith

slimoli said:


> Yep, and that's *public* information.


I mean inform shareholders about changing plan's date execution or force-major events.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

OK...it appears to be time to bring out the flag...

:backtotop


----------



## P Smith

You could stick the flag to your signature - it will cut your typing time.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> You could stick the flag to your signature - it will cut your typing time.


Or you and everyone else could just stop posting off-topic banter about E14, "plans" versus "schedules", obscure and not-so-obscure science fiction references, and stuff like that.

:backtotop

(And I've been advised to start using the Report to Moderator" button if warranted. Don't want anyone to get in Dutch with them and they have a hard-enough job as it is. You wanna discuss E14, there's several forums where it's more appropriate. You wanna discuss SF, likewise. You wanna attack Directv's policies and schedules - knock yourself out, but not in this thread).


----------



## Lee L

LameLefty said:


> Operational station-keeping is pretty tight. 0.025º E-W is allowed by the authorization from the FCC. That works out to (very roughly) 11.5 miles in either direction.


Ha, that gives a good idea of the distances we are talking. Being anywhere in a 23 mile box on earth is pretty much unlocatable, but 23,000 miles away give or take and you can pick it up with a little dish that doesn't move and never know the difference.


----------



## PWenger

I would like Directv to let us all in on all the details of their plans and delays...

I would like this thread to stay on topic with information about the satellite, and not digress into fanboy vs. troll name calling...

I would like all the girls in my high school to call me and tell me they made a mistake by not recognizing my superior personality and innate skill in the art of love...

I would like everyone to wake up tomorrow and say, "You know, killing people because of race or religion is pretty dumb. Let's just stop..."

I also expect to find that none of these are very likely...


----------



## jacmyoung

PWenger said:


> I would like Directv to let us all in on all the details of their plans and delays...
> 
> I would like this thread to stay on topic with information about the satellite, and not digress into fanboy vs. troll name calling...
> 
> I would like all the girls in my high school to call me and tell me they made a mistake by not recognizing my superior personality and innate skill in the art of love...
> 
> I would like everyone to wake up tomorrow and say, "You know, killing people because of race or religion is pretty dumb. Let's just stop..."
> 
> I also expect to find that none of these are very likely...


That does not mean you (or we) should not try


----------



## wmb

houskamp said:


> here's a question:
> How much wander are they typicaly allowed?


apparently less than this thread?!?



LameLefty said:


> Or you and everyone else could just stop posting off-topic banter about E14, "plans" versus "schedules", obscure and not-so-obscure science fiction references, and stuff like that.


Is it OK to talk about Rabbit Hash? I used to work with a guy whose dog was their mayor. I need to visit there someday!

Seriously, its fun to learn about something, e.g. the differences in design choices and launch/orbital insertion between D12 and E14. Its another to piss and moan about things.I'm here for some updates, learn a few things, and have fun. Let's keep it fun!


----------



## Lancelink

LameLefty said:


> :backtotop


Feel like I am going way out on a limb here but what the hey, we are all bored.

With *all due respect Lefty*, I think if we are limiting this to discussion about D12 getting to position there is nothing left to talk about until either the drift starts or there is some official word from D*. Even with either of those events that function has been taken over by Sixto's notification thread. Everything relevant to current has been said and re-said certainly over the last 10 pages...probably the last 3 or 4. Or, by the nature of events, has the topic broadened way out?

This is not for me to say as it is not my thread nor am I a moderator. But hopefully I can respectfully ask, 'Do we need a new definition for what _is_ on topic here?'

And yep, my question about the topic is in fact off topic. Answering it just furthers that trend. Hence my trepidation.


----------



## ATARI

dpeters11 said:


> Could be, I just chose a city as an example without really checking it. Just liked the name, and I knew Rabbit Hash got locals.


I lived in Sheboygan for three years -- longest three years of my life.


----------



## dcowboy7

houskamp said:


> here's a question:
> How much wander are they typicaly allowed?





wmb said:


> apparently less than this thread?!?


Thats a good 1. :lol:


----------



## ATARI

Lancelink said:


> Feel like I am going way out on a limb here but what the hey, we are all bored.
> 
> With *all due respect Lefty*, I think if we are limiting this to discussion about D12 getting to position there is nothing left to talk about until either the drift starts or there is some official word from D*. Even with either of those events that function has been taken over by Sixto's notification thread. Everything relevant to current has been said and re-said certainly over the last 10 pages...probably the last 3 or 4. Or, by the nature of events, has the topic broadened way out?
> 
> This is not for me to say as it is not my thread nor am I a moderator. But hopefully I can respectfully ask, 'Do we need a new definition for what _is_ on topic here?'
> 
> And yep, my question about the topic is in fact off topic. Answering it just furthers that trend. Hence my trepidation.


And the moderators do have it in their power to lock this thread until order is restored and/or D12 starts to drift.

I'm as guilty as any for straying from the pure D12 path in this thread. It's just that it is a nice, centralized place to kill a few minutes in the morning and afternoon, have a bit of fun, and learn a thing or two about rocket science in the process.


----------



## s_m

LameLefty said:


> Or you and everyone else could just stop posting off-topic banter about E14, "plans" versus "schedules", obscure and not-so-obscure science fiction references, and stuff like that.


+1


----------



## wmb

ATARI said:


> And the moderators do have it in their power to lock this thread until order is restored and/or D12 starts to drift.
> 
> I'm as guilty as any for straying from the pure D12 path in this thread. It's just that it is a nice, centralized place to kill a few minutes in the morning and afternoon, have a bit of fun, and learn a thing or two about rocket science in the process.


Talking about thread... Would a reference to the "Dragonriders of Pern" be considered an obscure science fiction reference? Morever, is there a science fiction reference that isn't both obscure and well known at the same time (maybe that is the science fiction paradox).

OK, now I'm done.


----------



## curt8403

regarding D12. :dance01: 
(ypu figure it out)


----------



## Hdhead

curt8403 said:


> regarding D12. :dance01:
> (ypu figure it out)


Inside information! :dance01:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

wmb said:


> Talking about thread... Would a reference to the "Dragonriders of Pern" be considered an obscure science fiction reference? Morever, is there a science fiction reference that isn't both obscure and well known at the same time (maybe that is the science fiction paradox).
> 
> OK, now I'm done.


Really?

I give this thread a lot of latitude, because I think that it's great that there's so much anticipation and excitement. But LameLefty is right... let's ratchet it back a few notches.


----------



## erosroadie

Stuart Sweet said:


> Really?
> 
> I give this thread a lot of latitude, because I think that it's great that there's so much anticipation and excitement. But LameLefty is right... let's ratchet it back a few notches.


And in that spirit...

About how long (approximately) once D12 starts to drift will it take to parallel park in the proper space? Then, about how long will it take to finalize all the proper tests and be ready and able to turn on the switch and beam down more glorious HD???:grin:

Looking to see both from past experiences (D10, D11) as well as the thoughts of the astute audience here&#8230;


----------



## Rikinky

So is it time to put D12 on the back of a milk carton yet?:new_puppy


----------



## jilardi2

:group:


curt8403 said:


> regarding D12. :dance01:
> (ypu figure it out)


:group: :cuttle:


----------



## P Smith

Sixto posted it a few times - 20 days for the drift.


----------



## BudShark

erosroadie said:


> And in that spirit...
> 
> About how long (approximately) once D12 starts to drift will it take to parallel park in the proper space? Then, about how long will it take to finalize all the proper tests and be ready and able to turn on the switch and beam down more glorious HD???:grin:
> 
> Looking to see both from past experiences (D10, D11) as well as the thoughts of the astute audience here&#8230;


Post 2 of this thread contains links to both D10 and D11 histories.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2210442#post2210442


----------



## Lancelink

curt8403 said:


> regarding D12. :dance01:
> (ypu figure it out)


Curt, you seem a bit excited. Anything you want to share?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lancelink said:


> Curt, you seem a bit excited. Anything you want to share?


Keep your eyes on the next TLE or two...


----------



## Athlon646464

Lancelink said:


> Curt, you seem a bit excited. Anything you want to share?


Are we going to drift back on topic?:lol:


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Keep your eyes on the next TLE or two...


Damnit, now I'm gonna be checking space-track every 15 mins for the next TLE...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> Damnit, now I'm gonna be checking space-track every 15 mins for the next TLE...


....it was bound to start moving some time soon....


----------



## Hdhead

This is an all drift zone. Driftless talk not accepted. :dance01:


----------



## lzhj9k

Did someone finally untie the Satellite ? :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Rikinky said:


> So is it time to put D12 on the back of a milk carton yet?:new_puppy


:scratchin .. I think everyone knows where D12 is .. It's not missing.


----------



## Rikinky

Doug Brott said:


> :scratchin .. I think everyone knows where D12 is .. It's not missing.


Just a joke.


----------



## oldfantom

Doug Brott said:


> :scratchin .. I think everyone knows where D12 is .. It's not missing.


I don't want to panic anyone, but it is my understanding that the satellite is currently in free fall....


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Uh, every orbit is a controlled free fall where the momentum around the earth prevents the satellite from falling...


----------



## Rikinky

you mean it's not being supported by bungy cords attached to the moon?


----------



## radiomandc

:backtotop


----------



## bidger

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Keep your eyes on the next TLE or two...


Transponder-Lightpath Edge? That's the closest I could find on the Acronym page. And no, I don't know what it means. Unless, course, you're telling me I should check with the experts at WalMart's Tire Lube Express.


----------



## LameLefty

bidger said:


> Transponder-Lightpath Edge? That's the closest I could find on the Acronym and no, I don't know what it means. Unless, course, you're telling me I should check with the experts at WalMart's Tire Lube Express.


Two-Line Elements.

A set of numbers that, when plugged into the appropriate mathematical model, allows a properly-written computer program to provide highly-accurate predictions of a satellite's orbit around the earth.


----------



## bidger

LameLefty said:


> Two-Line Elements.
> 
> A set of numbers that, when plugged into the appropriate mathematical model, allows a properly-written computer program to provide highly-accurate predictions of a satellite's orbit around the earth.


Thanks.

D***, it's the second one on the page. How did I miss that?


----------



## BudShark

bidger said:


> Thanks.
> 
> D***, it's the second one on the page. How did I miss that?


Its also explained in detail on post 1 of this thread. The first 2 posts are must reads... they have a lot of great information that explain what has happened, is happening, and clarify things (including D10/D11 timelines for comparison purposes).


----------



## michaelruggeri

When I go to the Satbeam page and look at the D12 info, it says "moving." Is that significant or does it always say that.

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> Uh, every orbit is a controlled free fall where the momentum around the earth prevents the satellite from falling...


I think that was the point.


----------



## LameLefty

michaelruggeri said:


> When I go to the Satbeam page and look at the D12 info, it says "moving." Is that significant or does it always say that.
> 
> Mike


Unless you have satellite tracking software at home and an account at Space-Trak.org to get the most current publicly-available data, the best source for D12 information is this forum and these two threads.


----------



## jilardi2

michaelruggeri said:


> When I go to the Satbeam page and look at the D12 info, it says "moving." Is that significant or does it always say that.
> 
> Mike


it's been saying its been moving for about a month from that website


----------



## michaelruggeri

Thanks Jilardi2

Mike


----------



## jilardi2

michaelruggeri said:


> Thanks Jilardi2
> 
> Mike


no problem


----------



## P Smith

jilardi2 said:


> it's been saying its been moving for about a month from that website


The D12 been moving since it left Palo Alto on a board of a plane to Baikonur.


----------



## tonyd79

We are all moving and I am pretty much in geosynchronous orbit all the time.


----------



## P Smith

And many are drifting with the thread...


----------



## georule

P Smith said:


> To shareholders who did invest and would invest.


But only if it is likely to have a material impact on their investment. And, generally, at given time frames (like quarterly financial reports), unless the material impact is really quite large and therefore justifies reporting it out of the usual timeframes. Which is actually an argument that there's nothing all that impactful that has happened yet, re D12.


----------



## georule

wmb said:


> Talking about thread... Would a reference to the "Dragonriders of Pern" be considered an obscure science fiction reference?


Possibly it was getting a little obscurish from age, but after I saw Avatar I started bringing it up alot again. . .


----------



## erosroadie

BudShark said:


> Post 2 of this thread contains links to both D10 and D11 histories.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2210442#post2210442


Thanks.

So&#8230;
D10 took 81 days from Launch to Live.
D11 took 134 days from Launch to Live.
D12 (as I type this) has taken 99 days from Launch to...

What's the current Over/Under to the number of days to Live?


----------



## georule

erosroadie said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So&#8230;
> D10 took 81 days from Launch to Live.
> D11 took 134 days from Launch to Live.
> D12 (as I type this) has taken 99 days from Launch to...
> 
> What's the current Over/Under to the number of days to Live?


If I understood the conversation upstream, anyone sitting on 125 or lower is starting to tear-up their betting slips.

Edit: Subtracted 1 for the kumbaya huggy people upstream that haven't shared yet.


----------



## Jeremy W

georule said:


> If I understood the conversation upstream, anyone sitting on 125 or lower is starting to tear-up their betting slips.


Yep, that's a fair assessment. If it were to be lit up within the next 26 days, it would have to move faster than we've seen DirecTV's satellites move in the past.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Yep, that's a fair assessment. If it were to be lit up within the next 26 days, it would have to move faster than we've seen DirecTV's satellites move in the past.


Well, the moving part could be done in 26 days. The lighting up part will add a few weeks probably though.


----------



## T-Hefner

Wow....D10 lit up in 81 days eh? Thats pretty fast considering D* seems to take there time.

-Tim


----------



## jefbal99

New TLE, 141, any takers?



Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10097.34030302 -.00000258  00000-0  10000-3 0  1416
2 36131 000.0378 024.4793 0001797 055.0362 162.4675 01.00273016  1077


----------



## RAD

T-Hefner said:


> Wow....D10 lit up in 81 days eh? Thats pretty fast considering D* seems to take there time.
> 
> -Tim


But D10 didn't have the BSS additional payload like D11 and D12 have and which DirecTV wanted to do a bunch of testing with. Remember, they're the 1st (AFAIK) to actually have a BSS payload in orbit and probably want to play with it as much as they can before commiting to building the R2 BSS satellite.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> New TLE, 141, any takers?


Yep, posted it earlier to post#1.

Was feeling bad about continually posting "no change", so quieting just updated the first post.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Yep, posted it earlier to post#1.
> 
> Was feeling bad about continually posting "no change", so quieting just updated the first post.


Do you have a crawler program that checks space-track every 5 mins and emails you any updates?

Damn man, yer quick


----------



## Hdhead

jefbal99 said:


> New TLE, 141, any takers?
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131U 09075A   10097.34030302 -.00000258  00000-0  10000-3 0  1416
> 2 36131 000.0378 024.4793 0001797 055.0362 162.4675 01.00273016  1077


This TLE is 16 hours old so if the move started today :dance01: it should show up in the next TLE.


----------



## Jeremy W

RAD said:


> But D10 didn't have the BSS additional payload like D11 and D12 have and which DirecTV wanted to do a bunch of testing with.


D10 was also much more significant to DirecTV's future HD plans.


----------



## Groundhog45

Jeremy W said:


> D10 was also much more significant to DirecTV's future HD plans.


Wasn't D10 the one launched from Sealaunch in a more equatorial location? That allows a quicker move to the orbital location.


----------



## wmb

Groundhog45 said:


> Wasn't D10 the one launched from Sealaunch in a more equatorial location? That allows a quicker move to the orbital location.


No, Baikonur. D11 was Sea Launch.


----------



## njblackberry

I wonder if sexy Russian lady voice will tell us if everything is Nom Eee Nol


----------



## Jeremy W

njblackberry said:


> I wonder if sexy Russian lady voice will tell us if everything is Nom Eee Nol


Unfortunately, sexy Russian lady voice hasn't had anything to do with D12 in months.


----------



## njblackberry

It was a reference to post #4879 and the launch of D11. I don't recall hearing Russian Lady on the D12 launch.


----------



## georule

erosroadie said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So&#8230;
> D10 took 81 days from Launch to Live.
> D11 took 134 days from Launch to Live.
> D12 (as I type this) has taken 99 days from Launch to...
> 
> What's the current Over/Under to the number of days to Live?


Having given this some further thot (sorry, I am on jihad against "ough" --one of my quirks), it seems to me there are four ways you can think about this.

1). You could average D10 and D11 experience. Oops, never mind! That gives you 108 days, and informed opinion on the thread is pretty firm there is no less than 27 days required from start of drift.

2). You could say, "well, D11 and D12 are much more alike than D10", and therefore you could expect that increased experience shaves a few days off D11 and you're looking at something in the 126-130 days range.

3). You could say, "Emboldened by the testing and subsequent experience with the new capabilities introduced with D11", the engineers got even more ambitious in pounding on D12 while they had it where they could do so while impacting the customers only temporarily, and so you go a bit beyond the 134 days of D11. How many? Dunno. Engineers can be greedy and stubborn about such things --but rely on the bean counters trying to reign them in; so not too many. A week? Two weeks? Unlikely to be more than that.

4). You could say "something external to D12 and/or DirecTV, and beyond their control" is a hassle right now. Boeing MCC priorities, FCC, whatever. But that way lies madness (as to predicting). There's an old saying that if you have to assume that variable "x" is true or you can't win, then you have to act on the basis of believing that variable "x" is true. Of course, sometimes variable "x" isn't true, and you lose anyway.

P.S. Oh, and re #3, if you don't think the engineers carry some significant weight in a technology company like DirecTV, then think again. No, I'm not saying they get whatever they want. It doesn't work that way. But when they are willing to go to the mat for whatever they think is important in their lovable geeky brains --they're going to win their share of the internal battles.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

georule said:


> Having given this some further thot (sorry, I am on jihad against "ough" --one of my quirks), it seems to me there are four ways you can think about this.
> 
> 1). You could average D10 and D11 experience. Oops, never mind! That gives you 108 days, and informed opinion on the thread is pretty firm there is no less than 27 days required from start of drift.
> 
> 2). You could say, "well, D11 and D12 are much more alike than D10", and therefore you could expect that increased experience shaves a few days off D11 and you're looking at something in the 126-130 days range.
> 
> 3). You could say, "Emboldened by the testing and subsequent experience with the new capabilities introduced with D11", the engineers got even more ambitious in pounding on D12 while they had it where they could do so while impacting the customers only temporarily, and so you go a bit beyond the 134 days of D11. How many? Dunno. Engineers can be greedy and stubborn about such things --but rely on the bean counters trying to reign them in; so not too many. A week? Two weeks? Unlikely to be more than that.
> 
> 4). You could say "something external to D12 and/or DirecTV, and beyond their control" is a hassle right now. Boeing MCC priorities, FCC, whatever. But that way lies madness (as to predicting). There's an old saying that if you have to assume that variable "x" is true or you can't win, then you have to act on the basis of believing that variable "x" is true. Of course, sometimes variable "x" isn't true, and you lose anyway.


Perhaps the LTL times are exponential...


----------



## Lord Vader

An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


----------



## P Smith

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


Do you know how many micrometeorites out there ? :eek2:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


Good thing these guys are around then. :lol:


----------



## Davenlr

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


You talking about 2010 AL30?


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...





Davenlr said:


> You talking about 2010 AL30?


According to JPL, there are two objects passing moderately close to the Earth today and tomorrow, both in the 20 - 40 meter range. However, the closest will pass no closer than 1.1 lunar distance away (that's further than the orbit of the moon).

Such objects have no relevance to D12. 

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/ca/


----------



## PkDog

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


If only we had some Dragonriders of Pern around when we needed them --


----------



## Lancelink

georule said:


> ...testing and subsequent experience with the new capabilities introduced with D11", the engineers got even more ambitious in pounding on D12 ...


Dont think 1 or 2 are pertinant. I think 4 is very unlikley. Boeing is going to take very good care of D* and perform to their wishes. The FCC is not impacting any plans by D* in any way.

I think something along the lines of 3 is the likely scenerio. First off, D12 is the first DBS satellite with a BSS package. There is no such equipment on D11. I'm not sure where that idea started. So the testing phase was an unknown. It may well be that the BSS testing period extended longer than anticipated because new and important things were learned. Regardless of why, there seems to have been a bit of a disconnect between marketing and engineering. Thus the promotions for 'more HD coming in April' which quickly disappeared. In this case engineering holds just about all the marbles, since short of a direct override from very high in corporate it is their call about when to move. Even with all the power they have in this situation at some point you have to shoot the engineer and get on with things. Unless there is a major problem the shooting will be happening....(the dreaded)...soon.


----------



## LameLefty

Lancelink said:


> First off, D12 is the first DBS satellite with a BSS package. There is no such equipment on D11. I'm not sure where that idea started.


Actually, there is an experimental BSS payload on D11. Check the archived D11 thread (linked in Post #2 on page 1) for details.


----------



## wavemaster

BudShark said:


> Seriously? I don't think anyone hear thinks that this is significant in anyway. If Dish wants to rush a billion dollar sat ...


What do you work for the GAO? Only they could be so mathematically challenged.

A billion dollar sat? How about 140mil and under 300mil soup to nuts (sat stations launch etc.).


----------



## BudShark

wavemaster said:


> What do you work for the GAO? Only they could be so mathematically challenged.
> 
> A billion dollar sat? How about 140mil and under 300mil soup to nuts (sat stations launch etc.).



Umm, thanks.  I get confused sometimes. You know, Billion has a B which comes before M, so I would think that a Billion would be less than a Million. Glad we got that cleared up!


----------



## wavemaster

BudShark said:


> Umm, thanks.  I get confused sometimes. You know, Billion has a B which comes before M, so I would think that a Billion would be less than a Million. Glad we got that cleared up!


No worries. I have just been flabbergasted lately with the "number" or "math" magic being used in the gov. We little people should stick to the old math where there is no magic, or we will start believing them - lol.


----------



## dpeters11

BudShark said:


> Umm, thanks.  I get confused sometimes. You know, Billion has a B which comes before M, so I would think that a Billion would be less than a Million. Glad we got that cleared up!


Well, if you go by the (old I believe) British system, a Billion is more than a Billion, and equal to a Trillion.


----------



## tcusta00

Lord Vader said:


> An asteroid is coming perilously close to Earth Thursday. This could be related. Developing...


What's with your FUD-spreading in this thread? I recall not too long ago a very "reliable" source of yours said something was wrong with D12 that could be catastrophic. You're destroying any credibility you had left with this kinda thing... :nono2:


----------



## radiomandc

Used to love coming to this thread for information. Now it is turning into conversations about everything but D12. Can we please get :backtotop


----------



## bobnielsen

dpeters11 said:


> Well, if you go by the (old I believe) British system, a Billion is more than a Billion, and equal to a Trillion.


Million, Milliard, Billion, etc.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, please get back to topic. I've tried to be very lenient here but the next step is to close this thread and open a new one where I studiously delete off-topic posts. Please don't make me go that way.


----------



## steveholtam

1/3 of the posts in this thread are on topic
1/3 of the posts in this thread are off topic
1/3 of the posts in this thread are "Get back on topic"

Just saying...

And looking forward to the next Sixto update, hoping for the drift to begin!


----------



## wavemaster

What is D12's current status?


----------



## curt8403

wavemaster said:


> What is D12's current status?


 waiting for updated information


----------



## Athlon646464

wavemaster said:


> What is D12's current status?


That is constantly updated in Post's #1 & #2 in this thread.


----------



## Jon J

wavemaster said:


> What is D12's current status?


:icon_lol:


----------



## wavemaster

Jon J said:


> :icon_lol:


 You get the D12 prize.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

steveholtam said:


> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are on topic
> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are off topic
> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are "Get back on topic"
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> And looking forward to the next Sixto update, hoping for the drift to begin!


And which third does your post fall into?


----------



## P Smith

Stuart Sweet said:


> And which third does your post fall into?


I think he's proud of his last phrase _"And looking forward to the next Sixto update, hoping for the drift to begin!"_


----------



## 1877BeNimble

Great info on D12...


----------



## rufusgb

D12.


----------



## Lord Vader

tcusta00 said:


> What's with your FUD-spreading in this thread?


First, loosen those panties of yours. Second, get a sense of humor and try to discern when a post is a facetious one designed to lighten the mood. Third, my source has thus far been accurate in his comment to me about D12.


----------



## Lancelink

LameLefty said:


> Actually, there is an experimental BSS payload on D11.


Thanks for setting me straight Lefty. I stand corrected.


----------



## dcowboy7

So if an HD channel isnt added in the D12 group what timeframe are we looking at until the next D1? -- 2014 the earliest ??


----------



## RAD

dcowboy7 said:


> So if an HD channel isnt added in the D12 group what timeframe are we looking at until the next D1? -- 2014 the earliest ??


That list isn't a complete list of what D12 might carry, so don't worry if a channel you want isn't on it. As for the next satellite, at this time there is no next satellite on order.


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> That list isn't a complete list of what D12 might carry, so don't worry if a channel you want isn't on it. As for the next satellite, at this time there is no next satellite on order.


However, the BSS authorizations require that satellites be on order by this summer or Directv forfeits their multi-million dollar performance bonds on each.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

so maybe this has been answered before, but when would the bss payload thats on d12 be up and functioning, or is it just a test payload?


----------



## LameLefty

brett_the_bomb said:


> so maybe this has been answered before, but when would the bss payload thats on d12 be up and functioning, or is it just a test payload?


The RB-2A BSS payload will be up and functioning sometime after the satellite reaches 103º. However, that payload consists of four spotbeams aimed at specific geographical areas only. It is unknown at this time how Directv will make use of that bandwidth, though their license is SPECIFICALLY for direct-to-home service (not backhauling or anything else).

I personally believe Directv will deploy specially-modified LNBs or SWM modules to some customers in the footprint areas of those beams and offer special programming packages to them.


----------



## rorkin

steveholtam said:


> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are on topic
> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are off topic
> 1/3 of the posts in this thread are "Get back on topic"
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> And looking forward to the next Sixto update, hoping for the drift to begin!


:nono2:
This post is off topic


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I am thinking that the next TLE update will be somewhat telling...


----------



## jjeeffff

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I am thinking that the next TLE update will be somewhat telling...


Inside info or just a guess? Hope this thing starts moving soon!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jjeeffff said:


> Inside info or just a guess? Hope this thing starts moving soon!!


The last update is some time ago yesterday early morning.....


----------



## Lt Disher

Today's update is on post #1.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lt Disher said:


> Today's update is on post #1.


Its old now.... 4am


----------



## Lt Disher

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Its old now.... 4am


A little more than a half hour.

Edit: Sorry, I missed that it was AM. It is over 12 hours old. My apologies.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Lt Disher said:


> A little more than a half hour.


4am?

Its been there all day sir - I saw that one when I checked at 6:30am EST today.


----------



## nd bronco fan

86 users currently viewing this thread......a lot of interested people in what may be coming

now if we could just get sixto in here to grace us with his knowledge of what you are alluding to


----------



## hdtvfan0001

nd bronco fan said:


> 86 users currently viewing this thread......a lot of interested people in what may be coming


Absolutely.

The next Sixto update will be particularly interesting to see.


----------



## Hdhead

nd bronco fan said:


> 86 users currently viewing this thread......a lot of interested people in what may be coming
> 
> now if we could just get sixto in here to grace us with his knowledge of what you are alluding to


Half of them work for Directv. :listening


----------



## I WANT MORE

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I am thinking that the next TLE update will be somewhat telling...


I tried that one several pages back. Didn't work for me. Best of Luck.


----------



## bamaweather

Lt Disher said:


> A little more than a half hour.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I missed that it was AM. It is over 12 hours old. My apologies.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> 4am?
> 
> Its been there all day sir - I saw that one when I checked at 6:30am EST today.


That's not 4am. 4 GMT on 4/8 = Midnight ET last night.


----------



## beakor

maybe Sixto will come back and say its parked. Wishful thinking


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bamaweather said:


> That's not 4am. 4 GMT on 4/8 = Midnight ET last night.


Ah yes....you are right...making it even older....


----------



## Lt Disher

bamaweather said:


> That's not 4am. 4 GMT on 4/8 = Midnight ET last night.


Thanks, you are right of course.


----------



## slimoli

beakor said:


> maybe Sixto will come back and say its parked. Wishful thinking


He will. Parked at 76 ,as it is for the last 39 days or so.


----------



## BWELL316

This is like waking up for Christmas morning, only to find out it's like "Groundhog Day" and every day is December 24th.


----------



## P Smith

Before mid of April you could relax and don't wait for significantly different TLE.


----------



## kmax

Perhaps this is a stupid question that is somewhat unrelated, but is there a theoretical limit as to how much they can send to the dish and the limits of coax to the reciever? This is assuming that they could have "unlimited" frequency allocations for the birds.


----------



## P Smith

kmax said:


> Perhaps this is a stupid question that is somewhat unrelated, but is there a theoretical limit as to how much they can send to the dish and the limits of coax to the reciever? This is assuming that they could have "unlimited" frequency allocations for the birds.


Usually, one range is 500 GHz (R or L for Ku , Ka-Hi/Low, BSS), now it could reach 4 GHz per slot, then you could add mix as 3-4 diff sats to one position - making multifeed LNBF [Ku/Ka/BSS] ...


----------



## Newshawk

BWELL316 said:


> This is like waking up for Christmas morning, only to find out it's like "Groundhog Day" and every day is December 24th.


I would be up for THAT- December 24th is my birthday! :hurah:

Um, wait... would that mean I 'd be a year older every day? :eek2:


----------



## evan_s

P Smith said:


> Usually, one range is 500 GHz (R or L for Ku , Ka-Hi/Low, BSS), now it could reach 4 GHz per slot, then you could add mix as 3-4 diff sats to one position - making multifeed LNBF [Ku/Ka/BSS] ...


Ka still has right and left polarization in addition to the hi and low. The biggest limitation is trying to get enough allocations close enough together that they are relatively easy to pick up with a single dish. The original KU allocations were 9 degree apart, hence 101, 110, 119 which made for a limited number of them and fairly spaced out. DirecTV did well getting the ka allocations for 99/101/103 (101 is used for backhauling) which goes really well with their 101 ku allocation. They also have 99 and 103 for BSS which gives them a pretty good grouping of allocations that centrally enough located to be viable everywhere in the use. DirecTV even put in for the Ka 97 allocation after dish failed to meet it's deadlines for actually using that but last I heard the FCC hadn't actually given up on dish entirely yet so called DirecTV's application premature.

Dish has had to go to 2 sets of sats, one for the eastern us and 1 for the western us because of the ku allocations they could get.


----------



## Alan Gordon

evan_s said:


> They also have 99 and 103 for BSS which gives them a pretty good grouping of allocations that centrally enough located to be viable everywhere in the use.


It will be interesting to see what plans they have for the 111° orbital location.

~Alan


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Usually, one range is *500 GHz* (R or L for Ku , Ka-Hi/Low, *BSS*), now it could reach 4 GHz per slot, then you could add mix as 3-4 diff sats to one position - making multifeed LNBF [Ku/Ka/BSS] ...


The range is actually 500 *MHz* and the BSS range for the U.S. is 400 Mhz giving a total potential download bandwidth for a slot 3.8 Ghz


----------



## SteveHas

I have to admit that I am starting to think this thing is dead too


----------



## BudShark

SteveHas said:


> I have to admit that I am starting to think this thing is dead too


The thread or the sat? The thread, you might be right. The sat? You would be wrong.


----------



## HoosierBoy

I am starting to be in the same camp. Especially troubling is no word from DTV. Taking out the April date for more HD from marketing campaigns is a really big deal. I am hopeful D12 is alive and well but history with D11 tells us a long period of time on any stage of the start-up means something is wrong.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE. Not much change.



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-09 05:31:40
Orbit # at Epoch	109
Inclination		0.072
RA of A. Node		26.425
Eccentricity		0.0001770
Argument of Perigee	56.837
Revs per day		1.00272309
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 794 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		120.999
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	143 / 0 day(s)


----------



## BudShark

HoosierBoy said:


> I am starting to be in the same camp. Especially troubling is no word at from DTV. Taking out the April date for more HD from marketing campaigns is a really big deal. I am hopeful D12 is alive and well but history with D11 tells us a long period of time on stage of the start-up means something is wrong.


D10 - 2 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.
D11 - 3 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.
D12 - 3 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.

At least we are consistent. Patience is a virtue. All signs from anyone we should trust (look at Doug's signature) are that things are good. The only thing for certain is that people will flood a D1x launch thread with doom and gloom.


----------



## tuff bob

Maybe the check from DirecTV to Boeing got lost in the mail?


----------



## sswheeler

tuff bob said:


> Maybe the check from DirecTV to Boeing got lost in the mail?


Maybe bounced!:hair:


----------



## wmb

tuff bob said:


> Maybe the check from DirecTV to Boeing got lost in the mail?


Nah, I'm betting certified funds that will be transferred when Boeing turns the satellite over to DTV at its final orbital location.

Need to check th old threads on D10 and D11. I believe that the transfer was one of the last items on the checklist before new channels come on line.

Once it gets there the thread will become I'm getting signal on 103ca... are these signals good enough... Do I need a realign...

And then.... the moment we have all been waiting for.... our worst fears or greatest expectations will be fulfilled over numerous festivi, all foreshadowed by Sixto and others.


----------



## nd bronco fan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I am thinking that the next TLE update will be somewhat telling...


You remind me of a chick I hookup with in college......killer "rack" only to find out it was a padded push up bra.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

nd bronco fan said:


> You remind me of a chick I hookup with in college......killer "rack" only to find out it was a padded push up bra.


:lol:

Not everyone is qualified to determined what is real and what isn't.


----------



## dcowboy7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I am thinking that the next TLE update will be somewhat telling...





LameLefty said:


> New TLE. Not much change.


Kreskin you are not.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dcowboy7 said:


> Kreskin you are not.


Not even Carnac.


----------



## hdgreg

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not even Carnac.


Uri Geller?:nono2:


----------



## ATARI

Let me be the first (but probably not last) today to post:

:backtotop


----------



## HoosierBoy

BudShark said:


> D10 - 2 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.
> D11 - 3 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.
> D12 - 3 months from launch the "its not moving things are wrong" posts started.
> 
> At least we are consistent. Patience is a virtue. All signs from anyone we should trust (look at Doug's signature) are that things are good. The only thing for certain is that people will flood a D1x launch thread with doom and gloom.


The interesting thing to me regarding our consistency to our nervousness was that there was something wrong with D11. Also, the people on this forum are tremendously knowledgeable and I personally appreciate their willingness to share their knowledge. What a tremendous resource we have! I certainly hope D12 moves and is 100%, but based on the D11 problem......


----------



## Rikinky

:brush:


----------



## tonyd79

hdgreg said:


> Uri Geller?:nono2:


If he were, he could bend the satellite orbit so it moves!


----------



## hancox

HoosierBoy said:


> The interesting thing to me regarding our consistency to our nervousness was that there was something wrong with D11. ...


...and was denied here until it was public information. Hmmmm.


----------



## wavemaster

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Not everyone is qualified to determined what is real and what isn't.


I always ask,

"would you rather have Small but Real?
"or Big but Fake"

And you always get the same answer - "REAL BIG"

Of course I am referring to the new satellites.


----------



## Rikinky

A CSR from Directv told me on the phone back in March that no new HD Channels would be coming or that the new Satellite wouldn't be in full operation until September, I laughed and others did also but now makes you wonder. Just Sayin.....


----------



## evan_s

Alan Gordon said:


> It will be interesting to see what plans they have for the 111° orbital location.
> 
> ~Alan


My guess would be either back hauling or special interest channels, eg foreign language etc. I think this location is also shared with DISH so they would only be getting half of the bss allocation which would be 12 tps I believe.


----------



## Jeremy W

Rikinky said:


> A CSR from Directv told me on the phone back in March that no new HD Channels would be coming or that the new Satellite wouldn't be in full operation until September, I laughed and others did also but now makes you wonder. Just Sayin.....


The CSR was wrong then and is still wrong now.


----------



## evan_s

HoosierBoy said:


> The interesting thing to me regarding our consistency to our nervousness was that there was something wrong with D11. Also, the people on this forum are tremendously knowledgeable and I personally appreciate their willingness to share their knowledge. What a tremendous resource we have! I certainly hope D12 moves and is 100%, but based on the D11 problem......


What problem with D11? I don't recall any problems with D11. It did some BSS testing at 101 that was unexpected, by us at launch, but I don't recall any problems with it. D10 did have alignment issues with its spot beams. Is that what you are thinking of?


----------



## curt8403

HoosierBoy said:


> The interesting thing to me regarding our consistency to our nervousness was that there was something wrong with D11. Also, the people on this forum are tremendously knowledgeable and I personally appreciate their willingness to share their knowledge. What a tremendous resource we have! I certainly hope D12 moves and is 100%, but based on the D11 problem......


I note that D10 is now a healthy, useful satellite as is D11. I am not worried about D12


----------



## hancox

Yes, he means D10.

And - I wouldn't describe D10 as "healthy" - I would speculate that some of the reason D12 was launched at all was due to the D10 spotbeam issue.


----------



## curt8403

hancox said:


> Yes, he means D10.
> 
> And - I wouldn't describe D10 as "healthy" - I would speculate that some of the reason D12 was launched at all was due to the D10 spotbeam issue.


since the Majority of the national HD channels are on D10, I would not say that the satellite health is sick.


----------



## BudShark

Its all speculation. No one is "denying" anything. No one is avoiding anything. There is no conspiracy.

The facts are the facts and until those facts change everything else is speculation.

Lets get back to the topic which actually means we should all shut up (myself included) until Doug or someone has verifiable information or Lefty/Sixto post movement.


----------



## wavemaster

Perhaps not specifically on topic, but last night before actually falling off, I was thinking about the forum then and now. 

It is considered a plus having D involvement here (D12 info, the CE, insider knowledge etc.) to be sure but it also takes away from the independent thinking and discussions we used to have here. It just seems like the discussions are a lot more guarded and controlled than they used to be.

I guess with any good you need to balance it with a little bad.


----------



## Jeremy W

wavemaster said:


> Perhaps not specifically on topic


Not even close to being on topic. That's a whole can of worms that really doesn't belong in this thread at all.


----------



## wavemaster

Jeremy W said:


> Not even close to being on topic. That's a whole can of worms that really doesn't belong in this thread at all.


Touche'

And just a tad over a minute - my point exactly.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> Not even close to being on topic. That's a whole can of worms that really doesn't belong in this thread at all.


So let's ask this question...

In order to activate D12 on or before May 1, 2010...when is the last possible date that D12 would have to make its move to 103?

It seems that today would be that day, based on previous information we've seen here.


----------



## raoul5788

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So let's ask this question...
> 
> In order to activate D12 on or before May 1, 2010...when is the last possible date that D12 would have to make its move to 103?
> 
> It seems that today would be that day, based on previous information we've seen here.


With approximately 20 days needed for the drift, I think the day has already passed to get new hd by May 1st. That would leave only 1-2 days for testing at 103.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So let's ask this question...
> 
> In order to activate D12 on or before May 1, 2010...when is the last possible date that D12 would have to make its move to 103?
> 
> It seems that today would be that day, based on previous information we've seen here.


Doesn't seem likely since the FCC hasn't granted permission for the drift yet.


----------



## Jeremy W

wavemaster said:


> Touche'
> 
> And just a tad over a minute - my point exactly.


Listen, I actually agree with what you're saying. That doesn't mean I think it belongs in this thread.


----------



## Indiana627

P Smith said:


> Before mid of April you could relax and don't wait for significantly different TLE.


So are you guessing it won't move before mid April? Or do you know for a fact that it won't move before mid April and we should all just stop worrying about it?


----------



## tcusta00

Sixto said:


> For April "live", we anticipated a start of Drift last week (or earlier), which assumed a 20-day Drift and a week to test at 103°.
> 
> The original FCC filing stated arrival at 103° "no later then about 5/5", which is still very doable.


Bumping this post since people here seem hell bent on posting their own garbage rather than paying attention to the posts that matter...


----------



## P Smith

Summing for what we should wait and why we must hold our posting:

- FCC STA grant to move D12 to 103W
- significant change in TLE of D12
- public statement about D12

Now hold your fingers before appearing those event(s) !!!


----------



## hancox

Um, sorry, no.

Any of the 3 you cite will appear in the thread specifically created to "allow" chatter here.

The idea of over-moderation and policing of threads is hogwash.


----------



## Mark Walters

Sixto your post 1 - It's expected that new national HD channels from D12 will be available in *April* or early-May.

Isn't April out now?


----------



## curt8403

Mark Walters said:


> Sixto your post 1 - It's expected that new national HD channels from D12 will be available in *April* or early-May.
> 
> Isn't April out now?


 april still has 20 or so days left


----------



## Rikinky

Jeremy W said:


> The CSR was wrong then and is still wrong now.


And you know this for sure how?


----------



## slimoli

curt8403 said:


> april still has 20 or so days left


Yeah, and you believe in Santa .


----------



## Mark Walters

curt8403 said:


> april still has 20 or so days left


Curt - Sixto also has in his first post - After testing is complete at 76°, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to 103° "over the course of 3 weeks", followed by final testing and going "live".

This process sounds longer than 20 days to me.


----------



## Jeremy W

Rikinky said:


> And you know this for sure how?


Because it's ridiculous. The satellite will either start drifting soon, in which case we'll have new HD in May, or DirecTV will have to tell us that the satellite is dead, which means that any new HD would be squeezed onto the current satellites. Either way, nothing will take until September.


----------



## BudShark

Mark Walters said:


> Curt - Sixto also has in his first post - After testing is complete at 76°, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to 103° "over the course of 3 weeks", followed by final testing and going "live".
> 
> This process sounds longer than 20 days to me.


Sixto's post and the original date of the FCC filing state Early May. This isn't difficult. Until we get past the end of next week there really isn't anything to see here. All Curt tried to point out was people are taking "April" to mean April 1. The actual statement is April - Early May. We are STILL in that window.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> Because it's ridiculous. The satellite will either start drifting soon, in which case we'll have new HD in May, or DirecTV will have to tell us that the satellite is dead, which means that any new HD would be squeezed onto the current satellites. Either way, nothing will take until September.


Interesting....nothing will happen with HD until September? Five months out?

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> Sixto's post and the original date of the FCC filing state Early May. This isn't difficult. Until we get past the end of next week there really isn't anything to see here. All Curt tried to point out was people are taking "April" to mean April 1. The actual statement is April - Early May. We are STILL in that window.


That should answer 98% of the questions here.

Thanks.


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> Interesting....nothing will happen with HD until September? Five months out?


That's not what I said. I said something *must* happen before September.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> That's not what I said. I said something *must* happen before September.


I'll have to check my dictionary...I didn't realize that "until" meant "before". :shrug:


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> I'll have to check my dictionary...I didn't realize that "until" meant "before". :shrug:


When it's preceeded by "nothing will take," as in


Jeremy W said:


> Either way, nothing will take until September.


it means "before."


----------



## Avder

This thread is getting ridiculously inflammatory.


----------



## cforrest

Avder said:


> This thread is getting ridiculously inflammatory.


Agreed, I think everyone needs to enjoy the weather outside or do something else for the time being. I am sure some good news will come in the following weeks, D12 will be in the 103 slot eventually.


----------



## bjlc

some one want to tell me again, how there is nothing wrong with this satellite ..

because right now, I would bet that 75% of the posters here don't believe that..


----------



## clevfandad

+1


----------



## Hoosier205

bjlc said:


> some one want to tell me again, how there is nothing wrong with this satellite ..
> 
> because right now, I would bet that 75% of the posters here don't believe that..


...oh well.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> When it's preceeded by "nothing will take," as in
> 
> it means "before."


In that context it means nothing will take before September...as in nothing will happen before then.

I wouldn not have thought it meant something must happen before September, sorry for my confusion.

However, in that I agree. We'll have some kind of movement on the HD front before Sept. regargless of what the status of D12 is by then.

But, it would be nice to have some indication that it's moving. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bjlc said:


> some one want to tell me again, how there is nothing wrong with this satellite ..
> 
> because right now, I would bet that 75% of the posters here don't believe that..


IIRC, they are required to inform the gov't as soon as they know there is something wrong with the satellite. I don't think they can just let it hang out, do nothing with it, and then not tell anyone.

Until there is some news, I have to take what we know and it seems that there isn't anything drastically wrong, or we would alread know about it.

I've been wrong before...:grin:

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> IIRC, they are required to inform the gov't as soon as they know there is something wrong with the satellite.


More specifically, they're required by the government to inform shareholders when they know that something is wrong and they can't fix it. If something is wrong, but they're reasonably sure they can fix it, they don't have to say anything unless the fix doesn't work.


----------



## mobandit

bjlc said:


> some one want to tell me again, how there is nothing wrong with this satellite ..
> 
> because right now, I would bet that 75% of the posters here don't believe that..


If 100 people believe something to be true, that is in fact false, does that make it true? Whether 75% of posters believe there is something wrong, or not, doesn't change the facts. The problem is, 99.999% of the posters in this forum know NOTHING, they are speculating at worst, or using limited information to extrapolate at best. Bottom line, we don't know that D12 is fine, we also don't know if it is dead in space. Regardless of D12's status, our beliefs concerning its status are irrelevant.


----------



## Lancelink

Nevermind...post no longer pertinent.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lancelink said:


> I think your estimate is high, but *I've started a poll*, so let's find out what the numbers are.
> Please try to keep it somewhat sane.


Thanks....just what we needed. :sure:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> More specifically, they're required by the government to inform shareholders when they know that something is wrong and they can't fix it. If something is wrong, but they're reasonably sure they can fix it, they don't have to say anything unless the fix doesn't work.


Good point. I forgot about shareholder reporting.

Mike


----------



## Lancelink

MicroBeta said:


> Good point. I forgot about shareholder reporting.
> 
> Mike


As Jeremy points out, D* is compelled to report fully accurate, known information. IF there were a problem they really couldn't report anything until the problem is fully understood and it was established that it would have a long term impact on D*s ability to produce revenue.


----------



## Hoosier205

We could just wait for actual...news. Calm down and stop with the hysterics folks. D12 will be available soon enough.


----------



## oldfantom

The last 10K filing was in February. 

Their stock is above the three month average and close to the three month high.

Channel names have appeared in the data stream (indicating that someone is moving forward with testing prior to channel launch in that part of the project). 

We are all biased in our desire to have the Satellite in place right now.

I am reasonable sure most of us are working with a limited set of facts with which to make conclusions. 

These items lead me to the following statement, our lack of data does not indicate problems. There could be awful issues. Maybe half the transmitters are not working. Maybe they accidentally forgot to let Mike from engineering out of the electronics bay before they sent the bird up. Maybe the ground control software had a hardcoded limit to the number of simultaneous streams it could process. Maybe the staff manning the 76 testing site really loves or hates the new dominoes pizza recipe. Probably not, but the point is, we don't know. We won't know until we are told. When we are told, some in the forum are going to have been right and some wrong. Unless you are privy to some inside information, that right or wrong will have been the result of an educated guess. 

I personally fall into the something has not gone right with schedule camp. But that the thing that went wrong is probably not all that serious. But it is a guess and I would not put money on it and I might change my mind the next time i post.


----------



## Billzebub

oldfantom said:


> Maybe they accidentally forgot to let Mike from engineering out of the electronics bay before they sent the bird up.


Do you think we would have heard from Mike's significant other by now?:lol:


----------



## Rikinky

And then there is the deafining silence of Sixto and Satelliteracer!:nono2:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Without betraying a confidence, I know why Sixto isn't available and it has nothing to do with DIRECTV12. Don't read any more into it than that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Good enough for me.


----------



## Rikinky

Wait a minute is he going up like they did in Armageddon to try intercept a meteor that's in the direct path of D12?


----------



## georule

I will absolutely guarantee that there will be a major official status update from D* on D12 no later than May 3rd.

Edit: Okay, that was too cryptic --I'm looking at their current schedule for 1Q results release, and financial analysts call. I suppose it could change, but my investment sites currently have it listed for May 3. And you can be sure that if nothing is happened between now and then, either D* will volunteer a status update to the analysts, or one of them will ask for one.


----------



## PCampbell

Week three of four week testing, one more week then we can look for a move. I know thats not what you all want to here but thats the way I see it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Guys hurry .. the sky is falling. There's a chance you might get hit today.

and for those that might not get it .. I'm KIDDING!


----------



## Doug Brott

No news == Good news .. Carry on.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Stuart Sweet said:


> Without betraying a confidence, I know why Sixto isn't available and it has nothing to do with DIRECTV12. Don't read any more into it than that.


So then, "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"


----------



## LameLefty

Good $DEITY, this thread has turned into a lure for the biggest group of Chicken Littles I've ever seen. :lol:


----------



## dcowboy7

Rikinky said:


> Wait a minute is he going up like they did in Armageddon to try intercept a meteor that's in the direct path of D12?


On blu 4/27:


----------



## RD in Fla

Doug Brott said:


> No news == Good news .. Carry on.


What I don't understand is what is so secret in this business of broadcast satellite television? Shouldn't a company that has the impending ability to broadcast a whole host of new HD channels to the entire nation be out front talking about it? I realize things in space can go wrong and as a company DIRECTV has developed the belief through experience that creating expectations only creates angst when expectations are not met, but they, along with Boeing were quick to tell the world that the launch and eventual orbit of the satellite were successful, (in fact the launch was broadcast live) so what is so secret now? Why not provide an update instead of providing a select few individuals with information that leads to obscure references in signature lines of moderators on an internet site ?

In fact, I had a colleague and DIRECTV customer ask me the other day, "hey what happened to that satellite they launched around Christmas?" My reply, "its up there..." I understand that we are a "special" group here with a bizarre hobby but this isn't life or death and it isn't a business that has a huge amount of trade secrets. One would think that a little bit of official information would go a long way and provide positive p.r. for DIRECTV as a company. Just sayin'


----------



## Mavrick

Rikinky said:


> Wait a minute is he going up like they did in Armageddon to try intercept a meteor that's in the direct path of D12?


Nah he is just inroute to do a red button reset on D12


----------



## ShawnL25

The best guess we have seen is that it will start drift by 4/15/10 and park on or before5/5/10. There is really no use even worring about D12 until after the 4/15/10 date has passed with no movement. That could see us potentially getting new HD as SOON as 5-12-10. That is only a month away this is indeed a very exciting time.


----------



## BudShark

RD in Fla said:


> What I don't understand is what is so secret in this business of broadcast satellite television? Shouldn't a company that has the impending ability to broadcast a whole host of new HD channels to the entire nation be out front talking about it? I realize things in space can go wrong and as a company DIRECTV has developed the belief through experience that creating expectations only creates angst when expectations are not met, but they, along with Boeing were quick to tell the world that the launch and eventual orbit of the satellite were successful, (in fact the launch was broadcast live) so what is so secret now? Why not provide an update instead of providing a select few individuals with information that leads to obscure references in signature lines of moderators on an internet site ?
> 
> In fact, I had a colleague and DIRECTV customer ask me the other day, "hey what happened to that satellite they launched around Christmas?" My reply, "its up there..." I understand that we are a "special" group here with a bizarre hobby but this isn't life or death and it isn't a business that has a huge amount of trade secrets. One would think that a little bit of official information would go a long way and provide positive p.r. for DIRECTV as a company. Just sayin'


DirecTV has been thrashed around enough on this website, others, and this thread over "missed dates" when they were kind enough to provide their targets and windows to us. Why should they keep us up to date? They'll get twice the bad press for every hour past the first day they are late.


----------



## Beerstalker

DirecTV is a publicly traded company. Because of that they have to be very careful about what they do or don't say as it can have big effects on their stock pricing. 

It would be too easy for someone to say something that got everyone excited and made the stock prices go way up, so that person could sell their shares at a high cost and then say something went wrong etc.


----------



## RD in Fla

BudShark said:


> DirecTV has been thrashed around enough on this website, others, and this thread over "missed dates" when they were kind enough to provide their targets and windows to us. Why should they keep us up to date? They'll get twice the bad press for every hour past the first day they are late.


My contention is that they should be publicizing positive information or goals that have been met. Similar to those releases reporting the successful launch and orbit of D12. Just facts, not possibilities, windows or targets.


----------



## BudShark

RD in Fla said:


> My contention is that they should be publicizing positive information or goals that have been met. Similar to those releases reporting the successful launch and orbit of D12. Just facts, not possibilities, windows or targets.


I'm confused.

They had ads touting "And soon we'll have 200 HD channels" and they got bashed because they were touting something they didn't have.

They posted April for new HD channels on their website and got bashed because people suspect they can't meet April.

So what facts are they sitting on and not publishing? Thats what confuses me.


----------



## RD in Fla

BudShark said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> They had ads touting "And soon we'll have 200 HD channels" and they got bashed because they were touting something they didn't have.
> 
> They posted April for new HD channels on their website and got based because people suspect they can't meet April.
> 
> So what facts are they sitting on and not publishing? Thats what confuses me.


That's just it, nobody knows. Certainly a successful launch and orbit were objectives and goals of the mission and they were met with a certain amount of fanfare by DIRECTV and Boeing. Have no other goals and/or objectives been met? I suspect that is not the case and I also believe that D12 is just fine, but as I stated earlier, a little bit of positive information goes a long way. That is all.


----------



## Athlon646464

RD in Fla said:


> That's just it, nobody knows. Certainly a successful launch and orbit were objectives and goals of the mission and they were met with a certain amount of fanfare by DIRECTV and Boeing. Have no other goals and/or objectives been met? I suspect that is not the case and I also believe that D12 is just fine, but as I stated earlier, a little bit of positive information goes a long way. That is all.


http://www.sec.gov/


----------



## RD in Fla

Athlon646464 said:


> http://www.sec.gov/


I have no interest in reading the SEC's website, so if you could point me to the provision in the law or regulations governing publically traded companies that prevents DIRECTV from stating that a goal or objective regarding the launch, orbit and testing of the satellite has occurred that would be great. I practice law by day so reading more of it for fun is not gonna happen. :grin:


----------



## jerrylove56

Maybe someone has said this before, but could 3D technical issues have slowed down when D12 goes live. Or maybe there is a chance that D** deployment of D12 is on schedule and their plan to demonstrate 3D-video delivery at the 2010 NAB Show, April 12-15 in Las Vegas conflicted with moving D12 to its 103 slot before this date?????


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You know that's an interesting theory, that they want to use D12 to demonstrate 3D. I do think that they'd need a special filing to do that because I believe that would be considered "broadcasting" not "testing."


----------



## Athlon646464

LOL

I don't think the SEC would prevent them from doing anything you listed in this quote.



RD in Fla said:


> I have no interest in reading the SEC's website, so if you could point me to the provision in the law or regulations governing publically traded companies that prevents DIRECTV from stating that a goal or objective regarding the launch, orbit and testing of the satellite has occurred that would be great. I practice law by day so reading more of it for fun is not gonna happen. :grin:


I was referring more to Beerstalker's last post replying to your repeated request's for more info. My firm's compliance department has me jumping through hoops on a daily basis just to be able to serve our clients' best interests, and in my view, all they are doing is CYA because of the SEC.

I'm not one in the 'chicken little' group here, but if something is wrong, then as you know, they damn well must be careful with how and when that information is released.

I provided the link to the site to elicit the very response you gave us. When you look at just their home page, you get a sense of just how complicated and plentiful the regulations are, and therefore how careful D* must be.


----------



## RD in Fla

jerrylove56 said:


> Maybe someone has said this before, but could 3D technical issues have slowed down when D12 goes live. Or maybe there is a chance that D** deployment of D12 is on schedule and their plan to demonstrate 3D-video delivery at the 2010 NAB Show, April 12-15 in Las Vegas conflicted with moving D12 to its 103 slot before this date?????


If true, this is the type of fact that could be reported or promoted by the company. Once approved by the FCC of course.


----------



## oldfantom




----------



## brett_the_bomb

i like the 3d theory, but really why would they wait on the drift to demo a product that is comming soo soon? maybe im missing something... but i also dont think any thing is wrong.


----------



## RAD

Didn't they demo 3D using the existing satellites back in January for the CES so why couldn't they do it again for the NAB conventions demo?


----------



## Garry

MicroBeta said:


> In that context it means nothing will take before September...as in nothing will happen before then.
> 
> I wouldn not have thought it meant something must happen before September, sorry for my confusion.
> 
> However, in that I agree. We'll have some kind of movement on the HD front before Sept. regargless of what the status of D12 is by then.
> 
> But, it would be nice to have some indication that it's moving. :grin:
> 
> Mike


You have it out of context. The statement is that "nothing" will take until September, not that nothing will happen until September. By saying "nothing" will take until September, it means that everything will happen before September. Perfectly clear.


----------



## James Long

Stuart Sweet said:


> You know that's an interesting theory, that they want to use D12 to demonstrate 3D. I do think that they'd need a special filing to do that because I believe that would be considered "broadcasting" not "testing."


Data is data ... unless they need to use some new transponder encoding that isn't standard. I don't see why they wouldn't use one of the existing proven standards for transponder encoding. As far as the satellite cares it is just data in data out with no regard to content. As far as the FCC is concerned as long as it is one of the modulations filed they don't care what content is on it (for satellite licensing).

If DirecTV wanted to demo 3D it would be better to put it on an in service location where the demo would continue to work after D12 moves to where it belongs. Demoing 3D might delay the availability of new HD before D12 is in service, but it shouldn't delay anything to do with D12.

It would be nice to see an STA filing to move D12 to the right place ... just to reassure the doubters.


----------



## James Long

Jeremy W said:


> .... nothing will take until September.


Read that as "it won't take until September". (There will be additions.)
Not "it will take until September".


----------



## Beerstalker

I'm sure to demo 3d they will just take down a couple PPV channels like they did during CES.

I'm guessing they are just still testing. We will probably hear something by April 19th because they will either have to get approval for the drift, or another testing extension.


----------



## jefbal99

Tle 144



Code:


1 36131u 09075a   10099.46761104 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0  1440
2 36131 000.0401 026.2517 0001921 055.4914 208.1723 01.00272292  1093


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Tle 144
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131u 09075a   10099.46761104 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0  1440
> 2 36131 000.0401 026.2517 0001921 055.4914 208.1723 01.00272292  1093


No change to speak of.



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-09 11:13:21
Orbit # at Epoch	109
Inclination		0.040
RA of A. Node		26.252
Eccentricity		0.0001921
Argument of Perigee	55.491
Revs per day		1.00272292
Period	23h 56m 05s 	(1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 795 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		208.172
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	144 / 0 day(s)


----------



## Sixto

No PC access for the next several days. All in good hands with LameLefty and others to post TLE and FCC info. Thanks.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> No PC access for the next several days. All in good hands with LameLefty and others to post TLE and FCC info. Thanks.


Stuart gave me the heads-up. We've gotcha covered, buddy! :up:

Actually, looking back at the numbers again, there are some slight - but noticeable - changes. I'm suddenly thinking things may indeed be starting to happen.


----------



## carl6

This thread is so entertaining. Who needs TV when you can just peruse this stuff?


----------



## Groundhog45

carl6 said:


> This thread is so entertaining. Who needs TV when you can just peruse this stuff?


This thread is so entertaining specifically because we _need_ more TV. :lol:


----------



## slimoli

LameLefty said:


> Actually, looking back at the numbers again, there are some slight - but noticeable - changes. I'm suddenly thinking things may indeed be starting to happen.


Can you tell us in plain English why you got excited ? Thanks.


----------



## Lord Vader

"All is well! Remain calm!"


----------



## slimoli

C'mon Lord, I was about to say you posted the only reliable info about the satatus of D12 so far on this thread...


----------



## Lord Vader

I do hope you recognize that quote.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> C'mon Lord, I was about to say you posted the only reliable info about the satatus of D12 so far on this thread...


So, Doug & Stewart are unreliable and gave bad info?


----------



## Lord Vader

No, they just lack the ability of being able to use the Force. Remember, through the Force the future one can see.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> No, they just lack the ability of being able to use the Force. Remember, through the Force the future one can see.


I don't know...

Using the Force...

Getting info directly from DirecTV...

I wonder which is better.... :grin:

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Much stronger is the Force.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Lord Vader said:


> Much stronger is the Force.


How about using the force to move D12. 

So is that quote from the same source you quoted a few weeks ago?


----------



## Lord Vader

TheRatPatrol said:


> How about using the force to move D12.


The Force is not used to show off or for personal illustrations of its power.



> So is that quote from the same source you quoted a few weeks ago?


No, from somewhere else.


----------



## georule

Lord Vader said:


> No, from somewhere else.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> The Force is not used to show off or for personal illustrations of its power.
> 
> No, from somewhere else.


Animal House


----------



## RAD

TheRatPatrol said:


> How about using the force to move D12.





Lord Vader said:


> The Force is not used to show off or for personal illustrations of its power.


That didn't stop you from using the force to float Padme's fruit from her plate to your and back in Ep #1.


----------



## dwcolvin

Lord Vader said:


> I do hope you recognize that quote.


_Animal House_


----------



## wmb

slimoli said:


> Can you tell us in plain English why you got excited ? Thanks.


Let me guess... The gap hasn't been 17 km since it parked. That could mean they did something to raise the perigee and lower the apogee, or it could mean nothing. The perigee been trending up and is only 1 km larger than last TLE. Apogess is down 1 km. I'm still thinking he's gonna want to see a much bigger gap.

The other number that may be of interest is orbital period. Right now, its 23 hr 56 minutes, basically the same as how long the earth takes to complete one revolution - geosynchronous. It needs to get longer for the satellite takes longer to complete an orbit and moves west relative to the earth surface. You want it to move about 108 minutes to the west (~24hr/360 degrees * (60 minutes/hour) * 27 Degrees) over 20 days, so the orbital period should increase by about 5 minutes - to about 24 hours 1 minute.


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> So, Doug & Stewart are unreliable and gave bad info?


No, I don't think they gave any information but just their opinion. I asked Doug if the "everything is fine" was his opinion,fact or wishful thinking and got no answer. I have to assume it's just an opinion. I also believe that "according to plan" means absolutely nothing without a date but I was grilled by the fanboys here when I said that. Tell me we will have a bunch of new HD channels before June and I will be happy. Tell me everything is fine and I really don't know what to think when the D12 is still at 76.


----------



## dcowboy7

Lord Vader said:


> Remember, through the Force the future one can see.


But the future is cloudy because its always in motion.



Lord Vader said:


> The Force is not used to show off or for personal illustrations of its power.


Well it is for the darkside just not that way for the lightside.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> No, I don't think they gave any information but just their opinion. I asked Doug if the "everything is fine" was his opinion,fact or wishful thinking and got no answer. I have to assume it's just an opinion. I also believe that "according to plan" means absolutely nothing without a date but I was grilled by the fanboys here when I said that. Tell me we will have a bunch of new HD channels before June and I will be happy. Tell me everything is fine and I really don't know what to think when the D12 is still at 76.


They, and other mods here, are in continued contact with people at Directv...not front line CSRs...real in-the-know people. You just refuse to accept info from reliable people. No one will give you date when HD is coming until about 3-7 days before hand. You've been here moaning, panicking, and worrying for weeks...why? No one here can get D12 to do anything. Just move on & watch for updates.


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> They, and other mods here, are in continued contact with people at Directv...not front line CSRs...real in-the-know people. You just refuse to accept info from reliable people. No one will give you date when HD is coming until about 3-7 days before hand. You've been here moaning, panicking, and worrying for weeks...why? No one here can get D12 to do anything. Just move on & watch for updates.


I have the right to give my opinion here, regardless of what you think. I am not panicking and I don't panick with issues like this. There are much more important things in life than a TV hobby. We had a time frame for new HD channels posted on Directv website, removed 2 weeks ago. I am talking about the "new HD channels THIS APRIL" , no longer there. I can understand that was just an estimate, not a promise, but the truth is some delay exist on the D12 drifting. I can't see any reason why it has to be treated here as taboo. We should be free to speculate and exchange ideas, thats what any other forum is all about. We are not governed by Talibans.


----------



## Davenlr

slimoli said:


> Tell me everything is fine and I really don't know what to think when the D12 is still at 76.


You havent heard? Its DirecTv's new Eastern Arc satellite.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> I have the right to give my opinion here, regardless of what you think. I am not panicking and I don't panick with issues like this. There are much more important things in life than a TV hobby. We had a time frame for new HD channels posted on Directv website, removed 2 weeks ago. I am talking about the "new HD channels THIS APRIL" , no longer there. I can understand that was just an estimate, not a promise, but the truth is some delay exist on the D12 drifting. I can't see any reason why it has to be treated here as taboo. We should be free to speculate and exchange ideas, thats what any other forum is all about. We are not governed by Talibans.


No one really even speculates anymore. No one knows why it's taking time. You and the other worrying panickers are REPEATEDLY told D12 is fine by reliable sources, but can't accept it. :lol:


----------



## BudShark

slimoli said:


> I have the right to give my opinion here, regardless of what you think. I am not panicking and I don't panick with issues like this. There are much more important things in life than a TV hobby. We had a time frame for new HD channels posted on Directv website, removed 2 weeks ago. I am talking about the "new HD channels THIS APRIL" , no longer there. I can understand that was just an estimate, not a promise, but the truth is some delay exist on the D12 drifting. I can't see any reason why it has to be treated here as taboo. We should be free to speculate and exchange ideas, thats what any other forum is all about. We are not governed by Talibans.


Speculate all you want. The problem is you are speculating in a direction that makes no sense.

For all you know, an intern posted that April date on the website. You don't know anything about who authorized that.

On the other hand... A filing was made with the FCC on 12/1/2009- a pretty formal process that required all kinds of approval that isn't done willy nilly. That date said until 5/5. Assuming the drift takes 20 days... *WE ARE STILL WITHIN THE WINDOW DIRECTV SUBMITTED ON 12/1/2009*

What part of that do you not understand? If we had exceeded the window - there would be cause for concern. We haven't. Therefore; anything you speculate about "what is wrong" and how its delayed, and why the Taliban is shutting you down is, for lack of a better term, PoppyCock. I'm sorry DirecTV failed to meet your timeline. Perhaps next satellite they'll ask you at what point they should commence drift and operations to meet with your approval. But for D12 - it was the Board of Directors, Engineering, and the FCC that dictated the timeline. And as of today, *WE ARE STILL IN THEIR TIMELINE!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Smthkd

I think we all can answer that one!

*NO!*


----------



## bb37

BudShark said:


> For all you know, an intern posted that April date on the website.


Or an over-zealous marketing person who was told "we'll complete testing in April" or "we'll start the drift in April" and then jumped to the conclusion that the new channels would be on the air in April.

In one of my other avocations, I routinely hear stories about new race tracks being built. My standard answer is "I'll believe the race track exists when I see the pavement being laid". Same applies here...I'll believe the new channels that D12 is supposed to bring us actually exist when I can sit down in front of my TV and watch them. Until that time, it's all speculation.


----------



## TBlazer07

The word is P - A - N - I - C not panick.

If you want to be PANICKY, that's OK. 

Now back to our scheduled bickering ........ :lol:


----------



## Lt Disher

bb37 said:


> Or an over-zealous marketing person who was told "we'll complete testing in April" or "we'll start the drift in April" and then jumped to the conclusion that the new channels would be on the air in April.


These ads were national, full page, slick ads. While I don't know the structure of Directv specifically, the marketing department is surely headed up by someone of a VP level who should be in the know. Perhaps that person does not have to personally approve ad copy, but it is not some low level copy writer that is approving the ad campaign expenditures and at least in general the copy. In a big corporation like that such ad campaigns must go up to a level of someone who should have known the plan.


----------



## CockerKingdom

Just face it, the thing is broken.
Time to start over and relinquish the leadership role.


----------



## Rikinky

!pusht!


----------



## Fog627

Sixto said:


> No PC access for the next several days. All in good hands with LameLefty and others to post TLE and FCC info. Thanks.


No Sixto?? One of the following is sure to happen in his absence&#8230;

1)	Nothing, because D* will not start the drift and not have Sixto available to announce it here 
-or-
2) Sixto will be unavailable because he is steering D12 from 76° to 103° and cannot take his hands off the joystick to update us 
-or-
3)	None of the above and we will keep worrying that the sky is falling&#8230;


----------



## Rikinky

:brush:


----------



## smiddy

!rolling Do you guys know what the L stands for?


----------



## gphvid

Fog627 said:


> No Sixto?? One of the following is sure to happen in his absence&#8230;
> 
> 1)	Nothing, because D* will not start the drift and not have Sixto available to announce it here
> -or-
> 2) Sixto will be unavailable because he is steering D12 from 76° to 103° and cannot take his hands off the joystick to update us
> -or-
> 3)	None of the above and we will keep worrying that the sky is falling&#8230;


It's easy....Sixto is testing a new rocket to go up to D12 and push it himself. Then he can report drift. But....oh, he forgot his laptop!


----------



## bb37

Lt Disher said:


> In a big corporation like that such ad campaigns must go up to a level of someone who should have known the plan.


Stuff happens. I work for a big corporation. We have enough VPs to sink a luxury cruise ship. Nonetheless, things slip through.

As others have stated, the only indication that D12 might be trouble is that it didn't start drifting when some folks thought it would. While there is no hard evidence that D12 is OK, there is also no hard evidence that is toast. I see no reason to jump to conclusions. Find something else to worry about.


----------



## HerntDawg

smiddy said:


> !rolling Do you guys know what the L stands for?


Loopy!!


----------



## bjlc

gees two cups of coffee and an open bureau drawer.. hmmmm..lt seems like its going to be a long night..


----------



## dgsiiinc

Maybe it stands for "Lady who passes time waiting for D12 by knitting a sweater for her Dylan Teddy Bear by Gund."


----------



## rrrick8

TLE 145



Code:


directv 12              
1 36131u 09075a   10100.10294120 -.00000251  00000-0  10000-3 0  1452
2 36131   0.0432  31.6306 0001961  57.7939  69.8335  1.00271865  1107

Compared to TLE 144


Code:


1 36131u 09075a   10099.46761104 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0  1440
2 36131 000.0401 026.2517 0001921 055.4914 208.1723 01.00272292  1093

Only noticeable change I see is in the Right Ascension of Ascending Node (degrees) & Mean Anomaly. Don't really understand what it means though.


----------



## macmantis

This latest TLE does not change the situation. The eccentricity and the inclination are wobbling slightly. The move has not started yet.

MacMantis


----------



## dcowboy7

smiddy said:


> !rolling Do you guys know what the L stands for?


Shes fat so i will say she wants more *L*asagna.


----------



## Doug Brott

Maybe let's stop focusing on the lady and start focusing on D12 ..


----------



## LameLefty

macmantis said:


> This latest TLE does not change the situation. The eccentricity and the inclination are wobbling slightly. The move has not started yet.
> 
> MacMantis


The eccentricity is a measure of how non-circular (i.e., how elliptical) the orbit is. When it increases, the orbit IS changing.


----------



## James Long

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at TLEs for in service satellites like D10 and D11 so one would know how much eccentric behavior is normal?


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Perhaps it would be helpful to look at TLEs for in service satellites like D10 and D11 so one would know how much eccentric behavior is normal?


Here's the current orbital eccentricity data for each current Ka satellite for comparison:

SPACEWAY 1
0.0000351

SPACEWAY 2
0.0000116

DIRECTV 10
0.0000372

DIRECTV 11
0.0000346

*DIRECTV 12
0.0001995*

D12 is an order of magnitude more "out of round" than the others at this point.


----------



## hidefman

hmmmm... so lefty, because D12's eccentricity data is different from the others, does that mean the orbit is changing?...and the drift has begun?


----------



## P Smith

hidefman said:


> hmmmm... so lefty, because D12's eccentricity data is different from the others, does that mean the orbit is changing?...and the drift has begun?


Yeah ! Right ! Dream on.


----------



## -Draino-

When I face my TV to the SW and slightly tilt it, I get all the HD channels as promised. Not sure what the big fuss is all about!!!


----------



## johnner1999

dcowboy7 said:


> Shes fat so i will say she wants more *L*asagna.


she is NOT fat!


----------



## Robc22

Just got off the phone with technical help on an issue with my dish, asked about D12 and when could I expect the rest of my HBO's in HD. Seemed I caught him off guard as he started coughing. He said that it's not fully operational at this point and I should expect to see them sometime in the fall. Not sure if that's the stock answer, but it didn't seem so. FYI:eek2:


----------



## P Smith

If it just a delay to deliver D12 to 103W - could be propulsion system issue - for a few months then it will be good reason for the current stay. 
Speed of drifting wouldn't be a big issue if main purpose equipment functioning OK.


----------



## mrtanner69

A delay to the fall would probably nudge the stock downwards. If the market does not know about an issue, a CSR certainly does not.

That said, I personally find the change to the coming soon terminology at directv.com the most telling data in this thread. The whole "maybe an intern posted it" spin does not really cut it. 

If it was lighting up imminently I would have expected the marketing wheels to be preempting it by this point.


----------



## P Smith

Perhaps DTV is not interesting in that "marketing wheels" rotation now.


----------



## SuperZ06

curt8403 said:


> regarding D12. :dance01:
> (ypu figure it out)





Hdhead said:


> Inside information! :dance01:





Lancelink said:


> Curt, you seem a bit excited. Anything you want to share?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Keep your eyes on the next TLE or two...


*Hasn't there been a "TLE or two" yet ?

Curt and hdtv, could you please explain why you posted this ?

Were these posts speculation or did you actually know something that was imminent and didn't happen?*


----------



## Tom Robertson

As you might have noticed  D12 is no longer ahead of schedule by as much as it was before.

That said, D12 is still fine. And D12 will move to homebase soon.

And the new HD will be glorious.

You are welcome to return to your regularly scheduled debate as to what my words might possibly mean... !Devil_lol

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## davring

Tom Robertson said:


> You are welcome to return to your regularly scheduled debate as to what my words might possibly mean... !Devil_lol
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Sure leaves the gate wide open


----------



## slimoli

The word "soon" here has a strange meaning but I can wait few more weeks if AMC and Travel come in HD "soon".


----------



## Piratefan98

Tom Robertson said:


> As you might have no*t*iced  D12 is no longe*r* ahead *o*f sched*u*le *b*y as much as it was before. That said, D12 is stil*l* fin*e*.


I knew it!


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> The word "soon" here has a strange meaning but I can wait few more weeks if AMC and Travel come in HD "soon".


Let me guess, you don't trust Tom, either? :nono2:


----------



## bb37

Tom Robertson said:


> You are welcome to return to your regularly scheduled debate as to what my words might possibly mean...


I'm not worried as much about the meaning of your words as I am about what the next debate will be. Versus is back, MRV is in beta, Tivos are coming, D12 will bring us more HD sometime this year. If only I could predict the next great debate. :box:


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> Let me guess, you don't trust Tom, either? :nono2:


Give me a break man. You are not adding anything to the discussion here, just acting like a parrot every time any comment is made after one of the big guys post. For the records, I do appreciate A LOT what people like Tom, Doug and others are doing and have all respect for their opinion. As I said, I have the right to give mine as well, regardless of yours. :nono2:


----------



## Rikinky

Robc22 said:


> Just got off the phone with technical help on an issue with my dish, asked about D12 and when could I expect the rest of my HBO's in HD. Seemed I caught him off guard as he started coughing. He said that it's not fully operational at this point and I should expect to see them sometime in the fall. Not sure if that's the stock answer, but it didn't seem so. FYI:eek2:


Again I was also told by a CSR that the new HD Channels would come in September which would be Fall. ....Hmmmm


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> As you might have noticed  D12 is no longer ahead of schedule by as much as it was before.


Ahhh ... that was the problem. No delay, just not on an advanced schedule!


----------



## jefbal99

bb37 said:


> I'm not worried as much about the meaning of your words as I am about what the next debate will be. Versus is back, MRV is in beta, Tivos are coming, D12 will bring us more HD sometime this year. If only I could predict the next great debate. :box:


Don't forget we have DLB too


----------



## hdgreg

Piratefan98 said:


> I knew it!


Brillant! :sure:


----------



## PPW

http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357

Pretty much sums up DTV I'd say...


----------



## Tom Robertson

It's all good.

I know who I get my info from and they are in positions to know.

I also know that reality sometimes steps in and plans don't go was expected. Sometimes they go better--until sometimes they don't go better. It happens to all projects.  (And that doesn't necessarily mean they ain't fine, just not on the timetable expected.) 

Yet, speculation is all good and fine too. 

Will there be HD released in fall? Could be. But I'm betting most of it will be long before then.  

Until then, have fun.  I'm going to. :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## georule

Tom Robertson said:


> It's all good.
> 
> I know who I get my info from and they are in positions to know.
> 
> I also know that reality sometimes steps in and plans don't go was expected. Sometimes they go better--until sometimes they don't go better. It happens to all projects.  (And that doesn't necessarily mean they ain't fine, just not on the timetable expected.)
> 
> Yet, speculation is all good and fine too.
> 
> Will there be HD released in fall? Could be. But I'm betting most of it will be long before then.
> 
> Until then, have fun.  I'm going to. :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks, man. I said somewhere upstream I still vastly prefer to deal with a company that gives me timetables and goals well in advance, even accepting that sometimes "stuff happens" to push those timetables, rather than a company who only tells me what their plans are for me at the last minute.


----------



## Tom Robertson

PPW said:


> http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357
> 
> Pretty much sums up DTV I'd say...


The Better Business Bureau thread is elsewhere.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## makaiguy

Rikinky said:


> Again I was also told by a CSR ...


Yes, "again" (and again and again). We KNOW what the frakkin' CSR told you already. Since CSRs, in general, never know anything of value, I don't really care. We'll have informative posts on here when some of our members start picking up signals LONG before the CSRs have a clue.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Even if they don't light up any new HD until fall there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about. If you can't hack waiting then just cancel your subscription and get move on. No need to keep posting the same thing over and over.


----------



## Piratefan98

What would we do without hall monitors?

:lol:


----------



## P Smith

Well, worst case scenario: D12 cannot move from 76W and would works OK from the spot.

Then, we could setup another dish and use FlexPort#1 or #2 on our switches.


----------



## rrrick8

TLE 146



Code:


DIRECTV 12              
1 36131U 09075A   10100.40170045 -.00000250  00000-0  10000-3 0  1464
2 36131   0.0693  27.3841 0001995  62.9102 176.8114  1.00271807  1109

TLE 145



Code:


directv 12              
1 36131u 09075a   10100.10294120 -.00000251  00000-0  10000-3 0  1452
2 36131   0.0432  31.6306 0001961  57.7939  69.8335  1.00271865  1107

TLE 144


Code:


1 36131u 09075a   10099.46761104 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0  1440
2 36131 000.0401 026.2517 0001921 055.4914 208.1723 01.00272292  1093


----------



## RobertE

P Smith said:


> Well, worst case scenario: D12 cannot move from 76W and would works OK from the spot.
> 
> Then, we could setup another dish and use FlexPort#1 or #2 on our switches.


Will you please stop with all these hairbrained theories as to what is "the problem" (not that I believe there is one). It's rattling the nerves of the chicken little clan.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom Robertson said:


> That said, D12 is still fine. And D12 will
> move to homebase soon.


D12 is fine and will be in service as planned. 



Tom Robertson said:


> I know who I get my info from and they are in positions to know.


Earl?


----------



## P Smith

Sorry, it's beyond of my control. D12 is too far from target slot.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Sorry, it's beyond of my control. D12 is too far from target slot.


Just stop.


----------



## Rikinky

SPACEMAKER said:


> Even if they don't light up any new HD until fall there isn't a damn thing any of us can do about. If you can't hack waiting then just cancel your subscription and get move on. No need to keep posting the same thing over and over.


I'm sorry but isn't this thread the same thing over and over again? with the words "soon" and "fill in the blank" over and over!. Don't get mad at me I'm just passing what I was told by someone who works for the frikin company, whether they are idiots by your terms or not doesn't change the fact of what they said. I never once said that the channels were coming in September or the fall, I simply quoted what was said by a Directv employee and apparently I wasn't the only one who was told this. Geez!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Rikinky said:


> I'm sorry but isn't this thread the same thing over and over again? with the words "soon" and "fill in the blank" over and over!. Don't get mad at me I'm just passing what I was told by someone who works for the frikin company, whether they are idiots by your terms or not doesn't change the fact of what they said. I never once said that the channels were coming in September or the fall, I simply quoted what was said by a Directv employee and apparently I wasn't the only one who was told this. Geez!


We're not mad at you, we're just saying your sources aren't very reliable. Wikipedia is a crappy source for DirecTV info and so are their CSR's.


----------



## tonyd79

Coca Cola Kid said:


> We're not mad at you, we're just saying your sources aren't very reliable. Wikipedia is a crappy source for DirecTV info and so are their CSR's.


Well....when a poster who is negative about DirecTV in most of his posts repeats a rumor word for word over and over again that casts DirecTV in a negative light, maybe just a bit of annoyance creeps in.

Of course, why the words "soon" and that everything is alright keep getting repeated is because (most of) the same people keep posting doom and gloom.

It is what it is. When it happens, it happens.


----------



## Rikinky

I personally think everyone is just getting anxious and frustrated with the longevity of the HD Festivus. I have learned many things since joining which would be the reliability of certain sources (Wikipedia, CSR'S, etc) however I think these guys who work for Directv shouldn't tell customers things that are misleading, false, assumptions, or fabrications just to satisfy a customer on the phone. I would rather someone tell me "I don't have any information at this time to let you know" than some made up timeline or assumption, because not everyone has the knowledge that you guys have. Just Sayin...


----------



## Rikinky

tonyd79 said:


> Well....when a poster who is negative about DirecTV in most of his posts repeats a rumor word for word over and over again that casts DirecTV in a negative light, maybe just a bit of annoyance creeps in.
> 
> Of course, why the words "soon" and that everything is alright keep getting repeated is because (most of) the same people keep posting doom and gloom.
> 
> It is what it is. When it happens, it happens.


How's repeating what a Directv CSR says casting a negative light on Directv? LOL. It's not like I'm telling everyone that Directv sucks and D12 is dead, Blah, blah. I am a Directv subscriber. If I weren't satisified with my service than.
1- I wouldn't even be in this thread trying to get some info about upcoming HD Channels.
2- I would have choosen another provider.


----------



## Fog627

I've got a headache!! Makes me long for "What does the 'L' stand for?" discussion.

Does it have anything to do with Ellen DeGeneres? :new_color


----------



## TonySCV

One thing that's remained a constant in the 15 years I've been a DirecTV subscriber - DirecTV is hardly ever the first, or the fastest, to do anything. However, when something is finally done, it's done well. 

Patience, young (and old) grasshoppers! 

- T


----------



## matt

I don't even know why I open this thread anymore.

Step 1: Someone says its dead
Step 2: A mod says its fine
Step 3: Someone questions the mod, or reads too far into things
Step 4: Someone accuses that person and picks their logic apart
Step 5: Arguement that leads to nothing
Step 6: The forum members sleep
Step 7: See step one

Optional step 8: Not like this post and skip to step 5.


----------



## Rikinky

matt1124 said:


> I don't even know why I open this thread anymore.
> 
> Step 1: Someone says its dead
> Step 2: A mod says its fine
> Step 3: Someone questions the mod, or reads too far into things
> Step 4: Someone accuses that person and picks their logic apart
> Step 5: Arguement that leads to nothing
> Step 6: The forum members sleep
> Step 7: See step one
> 
> Optional step 8: Not like this post and skip to step 5.


Exactly!


----------



## CockerKingdom

PPW said:


> http://www.la.bbb.org/Business-Report/DirecTV-Inc-81000357
> 
> Pretty much sums up DTV I'd say...


Company Rating F
Our opinion of what this rating means:
We strongly question the company's reliability for reasons such as that they have failed to respond to complaints, their advertising is grossly misleading, they are not in compliance with the law's licensing or registration requirements, their complaints contain especially serious allegations, or the company's industry is known for its fraudulent business practices.

Humm???
Hope their wrong.


----------



## tcusta00

:backtotop

THIS is not the BBB thread (As already stated by a mod).


----------



## CockerKingdom

Hate to disappoint you but, this is on the bottom of the web page:
© Copyright 2009 The Better Business Bureau of the Southland, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 
The web page holder is responsible for all material posted. Mods. are not Gods and know all. They are only Mods!


----------



## BudShark

CockerKingdom said:


> Hate to disappoint you but, this is on the bottom of the web page:
> © Copyright 2009 The Better Business Bureau of the Southland, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
> The web page holder is responsible for all material posted. Mods. are not Gods and know all. They are only Mods!


What is the point? This thread is about D12, not any BBB reports.


----------



## Hdhead

matt1124 said:


> I don't even know why I open this thread anymore.
> 
> Step 1: Someone says its dead
> Step 2: A mod says its fine
> Step 3: Someone questions the mod, or reads too far into things
> Step 4: Someone accuses that person and picks their logic apart
> Step 5: Arguement that leads to nothing
> Step 6: The forum members sleep
> Step 7: See step one
> 
> Optional step 8: Not like this post and skip to step 5.


That's exactly why I am not going to come here anymore. I will not waste my time and just what for an Email from Sixto!


----------



## SteveHas

matt1124 said:


> I don't even know why I open this thread anymore.
> 
> Step 1: Someone says its dead
> Step 2: A mod says its fine
> Step 3: Someone questions the mod, or reads too far into things
> Step 4: Someone accuses that person and picks their logic apart
> Step 5: Arguement that leads to nothing
> Step 6: The forum members sleep
> Step 7: See step one
> 
> Optional step 8: Not like this post and skip to step 5.


couldn't have said it better myself,


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase. 



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-10 15:41:24
Orbit # at Epoch	110
Inclination		0.069
RA of A. Node		25.781
[B]Eccentricity		0.0002113[/B]
Argument of Perigee	58.775
Revs per day		1.00271816
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		273.539
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0147 / 0 day(s)


----------



## texasmoose

*Orbital eccentricity*:

In a two-body problem with inverse-square-law force, every orbit is of conic section shape, or part of a straight line. The eccentricity of this conic section, the orbit's eccentricity, is an important parameter of the orbit that defines its absolute shape, except that an orbit with eccentricity equal to 1 can be a parabola, a double half-line (which can be argued to be the shape of a parabola at zero scale), or a double line segment. Eccentricity may be interpreted as *a measure of how much the conic section deviates from a circle.*


----------



## joed32

Thanks Lefty.


----------



## Avder

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase.





texasmoose said:


> *Orbital eccentricity*:
> 
> In a two-body problem with inverse-square-law force, every orbit is of conic section shape, or part of a straight line. The eccentricity of this conic section, the orbit's eccentricity, is an important parameter of the orbit that defines its absolute shape, except that an orbit with eccentricity equal to 1 can be a parabola, a double half-line (which can be argued to be the shape of a parabola at zero scale), or a double line segment. Eccentricity may be interpreted as *a measure of how much the conic section deviates from a circle.*


I wish I'd paid more attention in Calculus and Physics.

I'm guessing all that garglemesh means the thing is getting prepped for a drift?


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Rikinky said:


> I'm sorry but isn't this thread the same thing over and over again? with the words "soon" and "fill in the blank" over and over!. Don't get mad at me I'm just passing what I was told by someone who works for the frikin company, whether they are idiots by your terms or not doesn't change the fact of what they said. I never once said that the channels were coming in September or the fall, I simply quoted what was said by a Directv employee and apparently I wasn't the only one who was told this. Geez!


I know. You've been posting the same things over and over. So have others. Not everything is about you. If you can't hack getting called out then don't read my posts.


----------



## PhilS

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-10 15:41:24
> Orbit # at Epoch	110
> Inclination		0.069
> RA of A. Node		25.781
> [B]Eccentricity		0.0002113[/B]
> Argument of Perigee	58.775
> Revs per day		1.00271816
> Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		273.539
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	0147 / 0 day(s)


The gap, at 18km, is the widest since March 11th.


----------



## cebbigh

Thanks Lefty. Is there an approximate number associated with eccentricity that, if reached, would be conclusive that an intended drift has begun?


----------



## P Smith

Drift had better meaning as changing coordinates - longitude and latitude, but an altitude will changed first.


----------



## James Long

cebbigh said:


> Thanks Lefty. Is there an approximate number associated with eccentricity that, if reached, would be conclusive that an intended drift has begun?


My understanding is no. TLEs describe an orbit. Orbits do not have to be geostationary. A satellite with zero eccentricity could be moving across the sky (from a ground perspective) to a different geostationary slot.

(All satellites are constantly moving - and not just within their "box" - They are circling the Earth at a high rate of speed. Fortunately for us the Earth is rotating at a high rate of speed and certain satellites APPEAR from the ground to be stationary. We can install simple fixed devices to receive signals from these apparently stationary satellites. Find a satellite that is NOT moving at the speed needed to maintain it's relative stationary position at the altitude it is at and you'll have a satellite that is "moving" relative to a viewer on the ground.)

I'd look for an altitude change if I were looking to see if a satellite was changing geostationary slots.

(Hmmm ... as I was typing that Mr Smith suggested the same thing! )


----------



## cebbigh

Sorry if these are obvious to everyone else.

Increased eccentricity then is an indication of increased altitude which would precede drift? Is what we see so far in the category of a hopeful sign? And what should we expect to see next if the hopeful signs keep pointing to the start of drift to 103?

edit: Replies to my previous post came while I was formulating these questions. Perhaps I am misinformed as to the relationship of increased eccentricity to changes in altitude. I thought one would be a possible precursor of the other.


----------



## P Smith

It could be, but you should constantly watching parameters of the satellite; it could be two burns maneuver when altitude/apogee would be changed and eccentricity will increase same time, and next burn would change perigee and lover eccentricity. The TLEs comes at very slow rate to consider it as on-line monitoring.


----------



## LameLefty

cebbigh said:


> Sorry if these are obvious to everyone else.
> 
> Increased eccentricity then is an indication of increased altitude which would precede drift?


Eccentricity is a measure of how much the orbit differs from a circle (e.g., how elliptical it is). As eccentricity increases from, the less circular the orbit is and hence, how much difference there is between apogee and perigee.


----------



## Davenlr

If I am understanding my reading of eccentricity, its currently appearing to be in the same spot relative to earth, but moving (relative to its point above the equator) up and down 2km per day? So that would make it drift west a minute amount for 12 hrs, and move back east a minute amount for 12 hours?


----------



## P Smith

More likely changing altitude, as eccentricity is ratio between max and min values of axes the sat's orbit.


----------



## cebbigh

And a change in eccentricity can come from a number of other causes other than the initial burn as described?

edit: Sorry again, responses came between the time I started to ask and sent the post. I respect the knowledge present here and hence think things over a few times before posting.


----------



## flapperdink

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase.


this is good news. from what i recall in earlier posts...raising the orbit (i.e. distance from earth...i.e. increasing eccentricity) is how they move satellites to the west (increase orbital location). not getting overly-excited, but hopefully this is the start of something good.


----------



## houskamp

eh, they just knocked it out of round to mess with us


----------



## Groundhog45

Doesn't the FCC publish approvals of pending requests on Fridays? Has anyone been able to look at their site to see if anything was done on the pending DirecTV requests?


----------



## cebbigh

Is this a good tracking site:

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131

I've been watching for a few minutes and the altitude appears to be decreasing. So with increasing eccentricity if I watch it long enough the altitude will eventually increase and over time the margin between high and low will grow larger?


----------



## Ken984

No, they are usually behind the information that is posted here, they are not real time as they suggest but using the same TLE that we have ( or most of the time even an older one than is posted here) and extrapolating the position from those numbers.



cebbigh said:


> Is this a good tracking site:
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> I've been watching for a few minutes and the altitude appears to be decreasing. So with increasing eccentricity if I watch it long enough the altitude will eventually increase and over time the margin between high and low will grow larger?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Ken984 said:


> No, they are usually behind the information that is posted here, they are not real time as they suggest but using the same TLE that we have ( or most of the time even an older one than is posted here) and extrapolating the position from those numbers.


I think the big "REAL TIME SATELLITE TRACKING" at the top of the page leads people to believe it real time. :grin:

Mike


----------



## cbayus

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-10 15:41:24
> Orbit # at Epoch	110
> Inclination		0.069
> RA of A. Node		25.781
> [B]Eccentricity		0.0002113[/B]
> Argument of Perigee	58.775
> Revs per day		1.00271816
> Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		273.539
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	0147 / 0 day(s)


This would fit in if they are using the XIPS system to perform the orbital maneuver. Ion Propulsion Systems x(IPS) starts out slow and gain velocity over time.


----------



## LameLefty

cbayus said:


> This would fit in if they are using the XIPS system to perform the orbital maneuver. Ion Propulsion Systems x(IPS) start out slow and gain velocity over time.


XIPS stands for Xenon Ion Propulsion System. As noted many times in this thread, they are very low thrust, very high ISP (efficiency, in layman's terms) systems.


----------



## RD in Fla

Groundhog45 said:


> Doesn't the FCC publish approvals of pending requests on Fridays? Has anyone been able to look at their site to see if anything was done on the pending DirecTV requests?


Just searched. Nothing new.


----------



## Ernie

cebbigh said:


> Is this a good tracking site:
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> I've been watching for a few minutes and the altitude appears to be decreasing. So with increasing eccentricity if I watch it long enough the altitude will eventually increase and over time the margin between high and low will grow larger?


This web site is the one that caused all the "its not moving - its not moving - now its there" confusion with D11


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE this afternoon:



Code:


Name	DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-11 11:23:04
Orbit # at Epoch	111
Inclination		0.070
RA of A. Node		25.380
[B]Eccentricity		0.0002077[/B]
Argument of Perigee	59.415
Revs per day		1.00271515
[B]Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)[/b]
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 795 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		209.525
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	147 / 0 day(s)

Eccentricity is down just a tad from this morning, but the orbital period is up by a second.


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this afternoon:
> 
> Eccentricity is down just a tad from this morning, but the orbital period is up by a second.


Great...now it's eccentricity is slowing...D12s dead!


----------



## Maleman

Can one assume a loss of many customers and loss on the market if this fails? Has a satellite ever failed getting launched in the past?

I know it's a negative post and I apologize but the longer it goes withouth anything happening, I become suspicious of some serious issues.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Maleman said:


> Can one assume a loss of many customers and loss on the market if this fails? Has a satellite ever failed getting launched in the past?
> 
> I know it's a negative post and I apologize but the longer it goes withouth anything happening, I become suspicious of some serious issues.


It's already been launched. But if you mean not being used, used AMC-14 was launched but failed and moved to junk orbit afterward.


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> Eccentricity is down just a tad from this morning, but the orbital period is up by a second.


Is a change of orbital period by a second "nominal" or odd? Is it a sign of something?


----------



## P Smith

syphix said:


> Is a change of orbital period by a second "nominal" or odd? Is it a sign of something?


I would threat it as measure's variation, nothing significant what could lead you to something.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

Coca Cola Kid said:


> It's already been launched. But if you mean not being used, used AMC-14 was launched but failed and moved to junk orbit afterward.


what was amc-14 supposto be used for? sorry if thats a totally uninformed question.


----------



## Santi360HD

suppose it is orbital junk, and dead in space...

1. has this ever happned before did Directv or Dish ever launch a dud??? was amc-14 either of these 2 properties?
2. whats a good guesstimate from the experts here, if & when another rocket would go up?


----------



## Jeremy W

brett_the_bomb said:


> what was amc-14 supposto be used for? sorry if thats a totally uninformed question.


Dish.


----------



## Santi360HD

Ok I'll change my 2nd Question, Thanks Jeremy W

guesstimate how long (if its a dud D12) till its officially a wrap and nothing aint gonna happen with D13? have any checkpoints been missed to suspect that this is going downhill?? as always experts please reply..


----------



## tuckerdog

Unless I missed it the 30 day extensions that DTV asked for has not yet been granted. From the experts here it appears that granting this request should be a no brainer.

Therefore it seems as if the powers that be, on the governmental level, are awaiting word from DTV as to when to grant the extension. By waiting till the time that D12 is ready to drift and then getting the extension grante is maximizing the time window for the drift to 103.

Would it not make sense that before we see any significant TLE changes, we will see the extension request granted.

Not sure if this implies good or bad news, but it seems a reasonable conjecture
Michael


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I would threat it as measure's variation, nothing significant what could lead you to something.


I'm sure you would.


----------



## rrrick8

LameLefty said:


> New TLE this morning. Eccentricity continuing to slowly increase.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-10 15:41:24
> Orbit # at Epoch	110
> Inclination		0.069
> RA of A. Node		25.781
> [B]Eccentricity		0.0002113[/B]
> Argument of Perigee	58.775
> Revs per day		1.00271816
> Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		273.539
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	0147 / 0 day(s)





LameLefty said:


> New TLE this afternoon:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-11 11:23:04
> Orbit # at Epoch	111
> Inclination		0.070
> RA of A. Node		25.380
> [B]Eccentricity		0.0002077[/B]
> Argument of Perigee	59.415
> Revs per day		1.00271515
> [B]Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)[/b]
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> [B]Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 795 km[/B]
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		209.525
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	147 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Eccentricity is down just a tad from this morning, but the orbital period is up by a second.


OK. Now I'm totally confused. These are both TLE #147 so how is one new this morning and then new again this afternoon?
SHould the bottom one be #148?


----------



## tkrandall

the sad thing is as far as we know, AMC-14 itself was/is fine.... The problem is the final rocket stage that was to boost it into geostationary transfer orbit failed. So it is stuck in a useless orbit total write off. It was a Dish sat intended for 61.5 to replace the aging fleet there. Echostar 15 is slated for launch later this year and is to go there.


----------



## carl6

Maleman said:


> Can one assume a loss of many customers and loss on the market if this fails? Has a satellite ever failed getting launched in the past?
> 
> I know it's a negative post and I apologize but the longer it goes withouth anything happening, I become suspicious of some serious issues.


I don't think those would be at all valid assumptions. First off, all indications are there is nothing wrong with D12. But assuming for the sake of discussion that there is, DirecTV does have remaining capacity on other satellites that would allow introduction of additional HD channels. Further, I can see absolutely no risk to DirecTV regarding a significant loss of customers. With the exception of a tiny handful of people like us, who frequent these forums, most customers are probably totally unaware of D12 or of anything regarding it. My personal opinion is if D12 were a total loss, it would have a virtually undetectable influence on DirecTV's total customer base. Let's say for sake of argument they lose 10,000 customers (which I seriously doubt would happen). That is less than a tiny fraction of 1 percent of their customer base (0.00055).


----------



## Maleman

carl6 said:


> I don't think those would be at all valid assumptions. First off, all indications are there is nothing wrong with D12. But assuming for the sake of discussion that there is, DirecTV does have remaining capacity on other satellites that would allow introduction of additional HD channels. Further, I can see absolutely no risk to DirecTV regarding a significant loss of customers. With the exception of a tiny handful of people like us, who frequent these forums, most customers are probably totally unaware of D12 or of anything regarding it. My personal opinion is if D12 were a total loss, it would have a virtually undetectable influence on DirecTV's total customer base. Let's say for sake of argument they lose 10,000 customers (which I seriously doubt would happen). That is less than a tiny fraction of 1 percent of their customer base (0.00055).


Good, I hope your right on all accounts.  I need more of your positive outlook.


----------



## lwilli201

AMC-14 has been put in GSO however it is not were it is supposed to be. It is at 34.8 E (some where over Kenya) but the planned slot was 61.5W. The insurance company is trying to sell the satellite but it would appear there are no buyers. The fuel needed to get it into GSO probably shortened the life of this satellite. Boosting the satellite around the moon to get it to the proper slot was considered but never executed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC-14


----------



## Tom Robertson

Maleman said:


> Good, I hope your right on all accounts.  I need more of your positive outlook.


By far, the most risky part of the whole sequence is the launch. Since that has succeeded, the next risky operation in the short-term is the testing. At this point, I might not have heard if there was a major failure--but I sure would not have heard "all is fine, she is doing well", messages. 

Actually if it was a total bust, Boeing would have a press release and be building a replacement around the clock by now. So we can be pretty certain that D12 is in good shape. Maybe not perfect (or maybe perfect for that matter). Certainly not materially affecting the business of Boeing and/or DIRECTV.

The next risk is for all satellites--solar flair causing failures. This is not limited to any group of satellites--it's been known to take out two or three at a time--that we are told about. Who knows what happened to the military ones at those times... 

All in all, with the sources I talk to saying that "She is fine", I'm sure she is. And the word "soon" is becoming more and more applicable to anyone's definition, not just in satellite terms. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tom Robertson said:


> By far, the most risky part of the whole sequence is the launch. Since that has succeeded, the next risky operation in the short-term is the testing. At this point, I might not have heard if there was a major failure--but I sure would not have heard "all is fine, she is doing well", messages.
> 
> Actually if it was a total bust, Boeing would have a press release and be building a replacement around the clock by now. So we can be pretty certain that D12 is in good shape. Maybe not perfect (or maybe perfect for that matter). Certainly not materially affecting the business of Boeing and/or DIRECTV.
> 
> The next risk is for all satellites--solar flair causing failures. This is not limited to any group of satellites--it's been known to take out two or three at a time--that we are told about. Who knows what happened to the military ones at those times...
> 
> All in all, with the sources I talk to saying that "She is fine", I'm sure she is. And the word "soon" is becoming more and more applicable to anyone's definition, not just in satellite terms.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ya mean the To-Do list doesn't look like...

Call CEO
Prepare presentation for Shareholders meeting.
Contact FCC
Call Tom and tell him everything is Okey-Dokey
!rolling

Mike


----------



## afulkerson

New TLE this morning. I will leave it to the experts to comment on it.  



DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A 10102.10340981 -.00000244 00000-0 10000-3 0 1486
2 36131 000.0450 028.8375 0002068 060.8283 071.7302 01.00271300 1129


----------



## syphix

afulkerson said:


> New TLE this morning. I will leave it to the experts to comment on it.
> 
> DIRECTV 12
> 1 36131U 09075A 10102.10340981 -.00000244 00000-0 10000-3 0 1486
> 2 36131 000.0450 028.8375 0002068 060.8283 071.7302 01.00271300 1129


Still at 76.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

syphix said:


> Still at 76.


but it seems the apogee is increasing and the period is decreasing...I think... :scratchin

Mike


----------



## Tom_S

It's amazing how i've gone from eager anticipation to being surprised if it ever moves! Does anybody have any idea what kind of testing could take this long?


----------



## tuff bob

lwilli201 said:


> AMC-14 has been put in GSO however it is not were it is supposed to be. It is at 34.8 E (some where over Kenya) but the planned slot was 61.5W.


It's also in an inclined orbit according to that wikipedia page, and a fairly inclined one at that, this meaning you won't receive the satellite constantly with a fixed dish. Probably why the lack of buyers.


----------



## CTJon

So if we really ever heard what is going on it would be the normal technical / marketing project. Technical people said there are 10 tasks and they would take between 10 -30 days. Marketing and management said 10 tasks x 10 days (all they hear is what they want to hear) and publish/leak to the world. Reality says a few take 10 but most take up to the 30 days. 
All is fine but management can't add.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Such a bummer! Go on vacation for a week, come back, we’re still in the same boat. Kind of disappointing.


----------



## cebbigh

Has there been any indication if the D12 RB-2A ("BSS") testing is concluded and whether or not it was successful?


----------



## tuff bob

cebbigh said:


> Has there been any indication if the D12 RB-2A ("BSS") testing is concluded and whether or not it was successful?


the only clue we have is they did not ask for an extension for testing the RB-2A payload, just the Ka payload of D12.


----------



## Piratefan98

Help is on the way


----------



## TBlazer07

Tom_S said:


> Does anybody have any idea what kind of testing could take this long?


 Yea, after watching the Apollo 13 story on Dateline last night my guess is they are testing out a way to dispose of the used urine bags because if they "eject" it out through the spacecraft as they usually do it might change the course and burn up in the atmosphere and we'd never get 127 more PPV channels. :eek2:


----------



## Rikinky

TBlazer07 said:


> Yea, after watching the Apollo 13 story on Dateline last night my guess is they are testing out a way to dispose of the used urine bags because if they "eject" it out through the spacecraft as they usually do it might change the course and burn up in the atmosphere and we'd never get 127 more PPV channels. :eek2:


Ok SPACEMAKER, you want a negative posting, here is one for you!


----------



## sigma1914

Rikinky said:


> Ok SPACEMAKER, you want a negative posting, here is one for you!


TBlazers was obvious sarcasm, IMO.


----------



## RAD

A couple posts on Twitter this AM:

_"@djdurian We expect the new satellite to be ready as scheduled."

@j0hnnyv There is an FCC process we are required to follow, we are following that now and hope to be able to ass that channel soon. "_

Besides someone at DirecTV typing like I do (ass vs. add) looks like things still on schedule, whatever that schedule is.


----------



## Rikinky

As well as 3/4 of mine.


----------



## Rikinky

:biggthump


RAD said:


> A couple posts on Twitter this AM:
> 
> _"@djdurian We expect the new satellite to be ready as scheduled."
> 
> @j0hnnyv There is an FCC process we are required to follow, we are following that now and hope to be able to ass that channel soon. "_
> 
> Besides someone at DirecTV typing like I do (ass vs. add) looks like things still on schedule, whatever that schedule is.


----------



## sigma1914

Rikinky said:


> As well as 3/4 of mine.


Yours are hard to tell. Try smilies.


----------



## Rikinky

sigma1914 said:


> Yours are hard to tell. Try smilies.


I guess you got me there. LoL..


----------



## SPACEMAKER

TBlazer07 said:


> Yea, after watching the Apollo 13 story on Dateline last night my guess is they are testing out a way to dispose of the used urine bags because if they "eject" it out through the spacecraft as they usually do it might change the course and burn up in the atmosphere and we'd never get 127 more PPV channels. :eek2:


:lol: Nice.


----------



## Rikinky

Ok question, Anyone think that since D12 was delayed that when the new HD Channels start rolling out that there will be a big Festivus, or pockets of small ones? Just wondering?


----------



## RAD

Rikinky said:


> Ok question, Anyone think that since D12 was delayed that when the new HD Channels start rolling out that there will be a big Festivus, or pockets of small ones? Just wondering?


From what I've seen there will be a bunch to be begin with but I don't think it would qualify as a 'big', with smaller additions later on. Remember they need to be careful about what they add since this is all the bandwidth they're going to have for a number of years to play with.


----------



## Rikinky

RAD said:


> From what I've seen there will be a bunch to be begin with but I don't think it would qualify as a 'big', with smaller additions later on. Remember they need to be careful about what they add since this is all the bandwidth they're going to have for a number of years to play with.


That's true. I forgot about that, therefore one would impy that if by some chance one or some of the channels someone was anticipating doesn't come in the first wave it doesn't mean it won't come later in the year.


----------



## nd bronco fan

I know it was stated earlier that Sixto was unavailable.......anyone know when he was going to be back?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not sure, but it won't be much longer.


----------



## Lord Vader

RAD;2421000[I said:


> @j0hnnyv There is an FCC process we are required to follow, we are following that now and hope to be able to ass that channel soon. "[/I]


I was wondering what *ass* that channel meant.


----------



## slimoli

Hey Lord, did you talk to your sources again ? Any news regarding the D12 ?


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> Hey Lord, did you talk to your sources again ? Any news regarding the D12 ?


D12s dead/dying/failing/lost.  You won't believe the mods who are in contact with Directv people, but you'll believe LV? (No offense LV, you're a good guy.)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

So far, no news...


----------



## matt

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm not sure, but it won't be much longer.


Soon? :lol:


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Beat me to it.


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914 said:


> (No offense LV, you're a good guy.)


How insulting.


----------



## bigyfoot30

slimoli said:


> Hey Lord, did you talk to your sources again ? Any news regarding the D12 ?


You guys crack me up :hurah:

It will be ready when it's ready :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

slimoli said:


> Hey Lord, did you talk to your sources again ? Any news regarding the D12 ?


*Insert evil laugh here.*


----------



## Jeremy W

bigyfoot30 said:


> It will be ready when it's ready :lol:


But what if it's not ready when it's ready? Or even worse, if it's ready when it's not ready?


----------



## Lord Vader

bigyfoot30 said:


> You guys crack me up :hurah:
> 
> It will be ready when it's ready :lol:


And this coming from someone whose avatar represents an organization that has been waiting for *102 years* (and counting).


----------



## sigma1914

Lord Vader said:


> How insulting.


I mean you're a good at evil guy.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jeremy W said:


> But what if it's not ready when it's ready? Or even worse, if it's ready when it's not ready?


Just be ready, Jeremy.


----------



## bigyfoot30

Lord Vader said:


> And this coming from someone whose avatar represents an organization that has been waiting for *110 years* (and counting).


I'll have you know it's ONLY been 102 years,,, and this year ain't looking too good either,,,, roflmao


----------



## flyingtigerfan

This thread is more than following the progress of D12. It's also about blowing off steam while we wait for the next milestone. Pretty funny.

But, I'm sure that next milestone will be....soon.


----------



## Jeremy W

Lord Vader said:


> Just be ready, Jeremy.


I'm always ready.


----------



## Doug Brott

flyingtigerfan said:


> This thread is more than following the progress of D12. It's also about blowing off steam while we wait for the next milestone. Pretty funny.
> 
> But, I'm sure that next milestone will be....soon.


Some people call that anticipation ..


----------



## Lord Vader

bigyfoot30 said:


> I'll have you know it's ONLY been 102 years,,, and this year ain't looking too good either,,,, roflmao


Indeed. BTW, it has only been 5 years for those of us on the South Side.


----------



## bigyfoot30

Doug Brott said:


> Some people call that anticipation ..


Uuh, Doug,,, shouldn't that be d12 in your signature??


----------



## pjsauter

Jeremy W said:


> But what if it's not ready when it's ready? Or even worse, if it's ready when it's not ready?


They have an all-day pill for that now.


----------



## krock918316

bigyfoot30 said:


> Uuh, Doug,,, shouldn't that be d12 in your signature??


 That'll fuel the fires! :lol:


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Doug Brott said:


> Some people call that anticipation ..


I think this goes beyond that, Doug. 

It's like waiting for football season. but that's a whole new level.


----------



## bigyfoot30

krock918316 said:


> That'll fuel the fires! :lol:


I think he changed it to see if anyone truly read his posts :grin:


----------



## Sixto

nd bronco fan said:


> I know it was stated earlier that Sixto was unavailable.......anyone know when he was going to be back?


I'm here. 

Still no approval, and no start of Drift.

As we say, soon.


----------



## bigyfoot30

WB Sixto


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Sixto said:


> I'm here.
> 
> Still no approval, and no start of Drift.
> 
> As we say, soon.


I think you should change your handle.

Perhaps something like "2ndMostHenpeckedMemberOfDBSTalkJustBehindSatelliteRacerNowThatEarlIsGone."

A little long, might need an acronym or something.


----------



## Doug Brott

bigyfoot30 said:


> Uuh, Doug,,, shouldn't that be d12 in your signature??


:shrug:


----------



## Athlon646464

Doug Brott said:


> :shrug:


OMG - Another dozen pages of speculation has just been kicked off! !Devil_lol


----------



## matt

This thread is like an ugly baby. No matter how hard I try, I can't help myself but to look as it wanders by.


----------



## TBlazer07

TBlazer07 said:


> Yea, after watching the Apollo 13 story on Dateline last night my guess is they are testing out a way to dispose of the used urine bags because if they "eject" it out through the spacecraft as they usually do it might change the course and burn up in the atmosphere and we'd never get 127 more PPV channels. :eek2:





Rikinky said:


> Ok SPACEMAKER, you want a negative posting, here is one for you!





sigma1914 said:


> TBlazers was obvious sarcasm, IMO.


Guess it wasn't obvious enough! :lol:


----------



## TBlazer07

bigyfoot30 said:


> Uuh, Doug,,, shouldn't that be d12 in your signature??


Now THAT **IS** funny! Or a Freudian slip?

Edit: Or maybe intentional? :hurah:


----------



## Athlon646464

matt1124 said:


> This thread is like an ugly baby. No matter how hard I try, I can't help myself but to look as it wanders by.


Although only 1 in 30 posts have been on topic lately, I can't stop watching either..... :uglyhamme


----------



## johnson1995

bigyfoot30 said:


> Uuh, Doug,,, shouldn't that be d12 in your signature??


Stuart has the same in his signature. The plot thickens.:eek2:


----------



## Jeremy W

johnson1995 said:


> Stuart has the same in his signature. The plot thickens.:eek2:


Either we're being screwed with, or the problems with D12 are more serious than DirecTV initially thought. I'm leaning towards the latter.


----------



## Beerstalker

Tom's posts today still seemed to say that D12 was fine, just not ahead of schedule anymore. I'm guessing Doug and Stewart are just screwing with us.


----------



## Maleman

Jeremy W said:


> Either we're being screwed with, or the problems with D12 are more serious than DirecTV initially thought. I'm leaning towards the latter.


I am curious as why Directv hasn't had any updates on the situation? Isn't this whole satellite thing unusual?


----------



## Jeremy W

Beerstalker said:


> Tom's posts today still seemed to say that D12 was fine, just not ahead of schedule anymore. I'm guessing Doug and Stewart are just screwing with us.


I'm just going to say that if D12 emerges from all of this at 100% capacity and 100% expected lifetime, I will be kind of surprised.


----------



## Hoosier205

Oh lord...calm down folks.


----------



## Jeremy W

Maleman said:


> I am curious as why Directv hasn't had any updates on the situation? Isn't this whole satellite thing unusual?


No. DirecTV has never given updates before, no reason they would now.


----------



## Athlon646464

Speculation:

They (Stu & Doug) are toying with us. They would not do something like change their sig if they knew of bad news.

If they had good news, *and could not report on it*, and spoke to each other, they could have come up with what they did with their sig's to watch us react.

My guess is that if they knew of bad news, they would have just removed any reference to D12 or any other satellite in their sigs, or left their sigs alone.

:eek2::eek2::eek2:

One more reason why I can't take my eyes off of this thread........


----------



## ATARI

OMG, Stu and Doug are both in on the biggest satellite conspiracy of the decade!!

(Personally I think it would have been funnier if they had changed it to D13).


----------



## ATARI

Currently 92 people watching this thread, that seems more than usual.

IS there something going on??

Discuss...


----------



## LameLefty

ATARI said:


> Currently 92 people watching this thread, that seems more than usual.
> 
> IS there something going on??
> 
> Discuss...


People are bored on a sunny Monday afternoon at work. :grin:


----------



## Athlon646464

ATARI said:


> Currently 92 people watching this thread, that seems more than usual.
> 
> IS there something going on??


Yes - but 99.9% of us don't know what it is. :grin:


----------



## sdk009

Maleman said:


> I am curious as why Directv hasn't had any updates on the situation?


D* is a publically traded company and updates could affect the stock price in a manner that doesn't necesarily reflect the overall performance of the company.


----------



## reweiss

My guess is Doug and Stuart are messing with everyone on this thread and they have a side bet as to how many people will have a meltdown.

My only question is "what is the over/under" on the meltdown total?


----------



## Jeremy W

sdk009 said:


> D* is a publically traded company and updates could affect the stock price in a manner that doesn't necesarily reflect the overall performance of the company.


If you're trying to imply that SEC regulations are keeping DirecTV quiet, that is incorrect.


----------



## Alan Gordon

sdk009 said:


> D* is a publically traded company and updates could affect the stock price in a manner that doesn't necesarily reflect the overall performance of the company.


... or there's nothing to report... or give updates about. 

~Alan


----------



## sdk009

Jeremy W said:


> If you're trying to imply that SEC regulations are keeping DirecTV quiet, that is incorrect.


No I'm not saying SEC regulations, I'm saying that if updates are given that makes the stock move in a manner equlivant to the stock moves made by insiders, it may shed light on them that they don't necessarly want or need. I know, working for a publically traded company our motto is if your're not sure, keep quiet.


----------



## RD in Fla

If there was something "good" to report why wouldn't Directv just report it for the positive public relations it would produce? Much like they did for the successful launch and orbit of D12. It makes absolutely no sense for any for-profit company to withhold positive factual information that would benefit them as a company.


----------



## Alan Gordon

sdk009 said:


> I know, working for a publically traded company our motto is if your're not sure, keep quiet.


Note to self: Find out where sdk009 works. Never buy stock for that company. 



RD in Fla said:


> If there was something "good" to report why wouldn't Directv just report it for the positive public relations it would produce? Much like they did for the successful launch and orbit of D12. It makes absolutely no sense for any for-profit company to withhold positive factual information that would benefit them as a company.


What's there to report yet?!

DirecTV-12 was launched into orbit... it's in the middle of testing. What other "good" news could they report?!

~Alan


----------



## RD in Fla

Alan - agreed. There is probably nothing to report.


----------



## ATARI

No news is good news AFAIC.


----------



## mobandit

RD in Fla said:


> If there was something "good" to report why wouldn't Directv just report it for the positive public relations it would produce? Much like they did for the successful launch and orbit of D12. It makes absolutely no sense for any for-profit company to withhold positive factual information that would benefit them as a company.


Public relations with whom? The vast majority of D* subscribers probably have NO clue what is going on...why say anything to a group of people who aren't even aware that a new satellite was put into orbit and is now in the process of testing?


----------



## HoosierBoy

Did Boeing turn ownership of D12 over D* yet? I seem to remember in the past there was a press release from Boeing announcing the delivery of the satellite when their work was completed.


----------



## James Long

RD in Fla said:


> If there was something "good" to report why wouldn't Directv just report it for the positive public relations it would produce? Much like they did for the successful launch and orbit of D12. It makes absolutely no sense for any for-profit company to withhold positive factual information that would benefit them as a company.


Responding to rumors and speculation only lends credence to those speculating.

While those in this thread who are desperate for new HD would disagree, putting D12 into service isn't important. When it gets to the right place there may be a few more HD channels but DirecTV is doing fine as a company without those channels.

Launches are impressive ... successful ones get a glowing press release (done). After that I wouldn't expect an announcement until new channels are added. The satellites are irrelevant to most customers. All they want is to turn on their receivers and get channels. Stockholders would only care about problems ... there being none why wake them up with updates that don't change the value of the company? Or even worse, give updates that (like much of this thread) only serve to introduce doubt?

E14 is fine and will be on service as scheduled. (D12 too.)
Updates as events warrant ... if events don't warrant don't take the lack of an update as the sign of the end of the world!


----------



## bigyfoot30

reweiss said:


> My guess is Doug and Stuart are messing with everyone on this thread and they have a side bet as to how many people will have a meltdown.
> 
> My only question is "what is the over/under" on the meltdown total?


Actually, they're probably sitting back laughing their heads off at all the lack of knowledge and patience


----------



## Jeremy W

HoosierBoy said:


> Did Boeing turn ownership of D12 over D* yet? I seem to remember in the past there was a press release from Boeing announcing the delivery of the satellite when their work was completed.


IIRC, Boeing doesn't turn over the satellite until it's parked in it's final slot. So Boeing still owns D12 right now.


----------



## Athlon646464

Reaction of three of us to the latest TLE:


----------



## mhayes70

Nice Avatar Doug!  :lol:


----------



## nd bronco fan

From Post #1

On 3/19/2010, an extension of 30 days was requested and granted for additional testing at 76°.
After testing is complete at 76°, DirecTV-12 will then be drifted to 103° "over the course of 3 weeks", followed by final testing and going "live".

The additional 30 day extension will expire in less than a week. Its safe to say we will see some action this week with either another extension to do additional testing or the move will begin. Sit tight and relax.


----------



## HoosierBoy

Jeremy W said:


> IIRC, Boeing doesn't turn over the satellite until it's parked in it's final slot. So Boeing still owns D12 right now.


This could be the reason why we won't see D* respond or communicate. Even though testing is on-going, it is not their's to comment on.


----------



## bb37

Jeremy W said:


> I'm always ready.


Just not always able.


----------



## SuperZ06

Athlon646464 said:


> Reaction of three of us to the latest TLE:


:lol: :lol:


----------



## tuckerdog

The implication that the vast majority of DTV subscribers know and care nothing about D12 is correct. As stated they just want to turn on the TV and watch. 
However with such a long latency for any replacement Sat. to be put in service, assuming there are real problems with D12, the inability to turn on their T.V.'s and watch channel X in H.D.on their new high priced HDTV, could become significant. Especially if their spouse starts questioning why Mildred down the block can watch LMN in HD on Dish or Cable and she can't.
I still hold that things are probably OK and that we will see the FCC approve the drift extension request when DTV is ready to move it. This will maximize the drift window and will be the precursor to any TLE changes.


----------



## Rikinky

Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


----------



## erosroadie

Rikinky said:


> Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


Probably just to drive us all nuts...:ewww:


----------



## sigma1914

Rikinky said:


> Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


So you could bring it up again from here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2421491#post2421491


----------



## Lord Vader

Jeremy W said:


> Either we're being screwed with, or the problems with D12 are more serious than DirecTV initially thought. I'm leaning towards the latter.


----------



## sigma1914

I posted this in the wrong thread...it goes here.

Here is what all the D12 panickers are doing.


----------



## SuperZ06

sigma1914 said:


> I posted this in the wrong thread...it goes here.
> 
> Here is what all the D12 panickers are doing.


:lol: :lol:


----------



## Renard

Here is what all the D12 panickers are doing. 



OR other panickers are also thinking


----------



## btedford

I had a question....once D12 has moved into its position....will it be ready for use instantly? or will it take them a few days to get it fully operational and for us to start receiving the new High Definition?


----------



## LameLefty

Much ado about nothing . . .


----------



## slimoli

So far, Lord Vader is my only hero here. All the other "reliable sources" are just messing with us.


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> So far, Lord Vader is my only hero here. All the other "reliable sources" are just messing with us.


Sure. Okay. :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

slimoli said:


> So far, Lord Vader is my only hero here.


As it should be.


----------



## slimoli

LameLefty said:


> Sure. Okay. :lol:


We should all apologize to him.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> We should all apologize to him.


For? Getting people like you to panic?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> We should all apologize to him.


Yeah, that'll happen. 

Mike


----------



## BudShark

slimoli said:


> So far, Lord Vader is my only hero here. All the other "reliable sources" are just messing with us.


Perhaps after many attempts to convince people that things were ok, they've switched tactics? I mean after all, when they said it was ok you believed Vader. Now, because they are messing with you, you believe Vader. Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if they agreed with Vader? Maybe you'd think everything was ok???? :grin:


----------



## David MacLeod

gonna be a long week.


----------



## tcusta00

This thread is out of control and to be honest you guys are disrespecting the real work that Sixto, LL and others are doing to keep us all informed. The purpose of this thread is to commiserate and discuss the goings-on with D12. You think it's doomed and it's going to burn up, fine, state it and walk away. No need to keep banging the drum until you piss everyone off in the thread. 

:backtotop


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I'm wondering if the changes in the TLE are within tolerance of if they are indicative of actual changes in D12s orbit. I don’t know enough about orbital mechanics to tell without having to do calculations...I’m too lazy for that. 

Mike


----------



## SteveHas

sigma1914 said:


> I posted this in the wrong thread...it goes here.
> 
> Here is what all the D12 panickers are doing.


simply awesome
!rolling


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

A suggestion?

Let's just lurk until something happens. Till then, Mr. Sixto and his band of experts can keep us informed.


----------



## wmb

Rikinky said:


> Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


My bet... Until D12 is turned over to DTV by Boeing, they do not own it and technically do not have the capacity in house. In about no later than 23 days (May 5, 2010) much will be answered.

As I often tell my 10 year old son.... patience young padawan.


----------



## tuckerdog

When I last checked one commiserates over unpleasant events ie: a problem. 
While I personally believe D12 will be functional in the near future, I can certainly see where one could speculate on another outcome.
It seems that the BSS testing was the big unknown and could reasonably need extra time than originally allotted. However, if I understand correctly that testing has completed and no extension was needed. Therefore if there is ongoing testing it is with the actual signal delivery systems. For this to take longer than expected, as this is not new technology, can reasonably be interpreted as representing some unexpected issues. An insurmountable or catastrophic problem, not necessarily, but a problem nonetheless.
This in no way way disrespects Sixto, LL or any other of the factual knowledge based contributers to this thread. I also respect the "insiders" when they state all is well. However,without knowing there sources, the possibility that the source is in error has to be considered.
As I said, I believe things will turn out well. Maybe not 100% functional, but hopefully with only minor issues.
However I certainly am open minded as to where others may interpret a less positive result.


----------



## Doug Brott

tuckerdog said:


> However,without knowing there sources, the possibility that the source is in error has to be considered.


I'm your source and you can choose to believe me or not .. I believe my source.
Of course, until it's done, it's not done, so we wait.


----------



## ATARI

Lord Vader said:


> As it should be.


I feel a great disturbance in the force.

As if millions of DirecTV subscribers cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.


----------



## Rikinky

Rikinky said:


> Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


I just remembered a lawsuit that just transpired by Directv's top competitor, this is probably the real reason of changing all the adds and the website to cover their own rear.


----------



## Athlon646464

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## tuckerdog

Doug Brott said:


> I'm your source and you can choose to believe me or not .. I believe my source.
> Of course, until it's done, it's not done, so we wait.


Get a thicker skin. I in no way impugned your veracity. However any unnamed source may be misinformed without purposefully spreading untruth's

I understand the need for confidentiality, and as I stated I come down on the positive outcome side. However, I do see a lot of juvenile condescension towards those who hold the opposite view


----------



## LameLefty

tuckerdog said:


> Get a thicker skin. I in no way impugned your veracity. However any unnamed source may be misinformed without purposefully spreading untruth's
> 
> I understand the need for confidentiality, and as I stated I come down on the positive outcome side. However, I do see a lot of juvenile condescension towards those who hold the opposite view


I've read every single post in this thread, just as I have for the D11 and D10 threads before them. While I myself am fully capable of showing due condescension to infantile, over-sensitive dolts who post nonsensical blatherings without basis in fact, I certainly have never seen any such thing from Doug - and I'm not saying that just because he's a Mod, I'm saying it because it's the truth.


----------



## DogLover

tuckerdog said:


> ...While I personally believe D12 will be functional in the near future, I can certainly see where one could speculate on another outcome.
> It seems that the BSS testing was the big unknown and could reasonably need extra time than originally allotted. However, if I understand correctly that testing has completed and no extension was needed. Therefore if there is ongoing testing it is with the actual signal delivery systems. For this to take longer than expected, as this is not new technology, can reasonably be interpreted as representing some unexpected issues. An insurmountable or catastrophic problem, not necessarily, but a problem nonetheless.
> ...


Or look at it another way. They had an original amount of time to test both the BSS package and the "regular" part of the satellite. They also had a Canadian company giving them the paperwork run around for their testing of the BSS package.

If the BSS testing took longer than expected, they would naturally want to finish it up in the original timeframe, to avoid the hassle of getting an extension for that testing. They would know that they could postpone the testing of the KA/KU piece, because getting an extension for that testing would be a non-issue.

So, while I have any inside knowledge of the actual facts, I do think it is just as reasonable to believe that D12 is working just fine, and will begin drifting within the next week.


----------



## tuckerdog

We agree then, it's you not Doug. ;-)


----------



## James Long

tuckerdog said:


> I understand the need for confidentiality, and as I stated I come down on the positive outcome side. However, I do see a lot of juvenile condescension towards those who hold the opposite view


Ignoring the ad hominem ... does anyone have a source, even a secret source, for ANY problems with D12? Or is it just "feelings" and "speculation" and when you trace back any "I heard" to an alleged source it is just someone with "feelings" and "speculation".

So far the arguments for the "there is trouble" side seem to be based solely on reading tea leaves. Those reassuring have real sources, even if said sources are not exposed.


----------



## tcusta00

James Long said:


> Ignoring the ad hominem ... does anyone have a source, even a secret source, for ANY problems with D12? Or is it just "feelings" and "speculation" and when you trace back any "I heard" to an alleged source it is just someone with "feelings" and "speculation".
> 
> So far the arguments for the "there is trouble" side seem to be based solely on reading tea leaves. Those reassuring have real sources, even if said sources are not exposed.


That about sums it up.


----------



## smiddy

I like DirecTV! I like it a lot!


----------



## whatliesbeyond

James Long said:


> Ignoring the ad hominem ... does anyone have a source, even a secret source, for ANY problems with D12? Or is it just "feelings" and "speculation" and when you trace back any "I heard" to an alleged source it is just someone with "feelings" and "speculation".
> 
> So far the arguments for the "there is trouble" side seem to be based solely on reading tea leaves. Those reassuring have real sources, even if said sources are not exposed.


Um, not tea leaves, but TLEs, are what some of us are looking at and wondering about. Even one or two of the people "in the know" have expressed sentiments suggesting the long "testing" at 76 is a little odd. Given how much Directv must want to close the gap that has developed between it and other providers with regard to HD programming, and given how Directv had already advertised the availability of the additional capacity represented by D12, the somewhat unusual delay in getting this bird to it's final resting place strikes some of us as mysterious. And people in general, and men in particular, love to solve mysteries.

As for me, I'm in the camp that thinks D12 is going to be primarily for premium channels like HBO and additional PPV/Cinema offerings (up to 400!), and since I don't watch either, I'm not that concerned. But I am intrigued.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

LameLefty said:


> I've read every single post in this thread, just as I have for the D11 and D10 threads before them. *While I myself am fully capable of showing due condescension to infantile, over-sensitive dolts who post nonsensical blatherings without basis* in fact, I certainly have never seen any such thing from Doug - and I'm not saying that just because he's a Mod, I'm saying it because it's the truth.


:lol: I love this.


----------



## BudShark

whatliesbeyond said:


> Um, not tea leaves, but TLEs, are what some of us are looking at and wondering about. Even one or two of the people "in the know" have expressed sentiments suggesting the long "testing" at 76 is a little odd. Given how much Directv must want to close the gap that has developed between it and other providers with regard to HD programming, and given how Directv had already advertised the availability of the additional capacity represented by D12, the somewhat unusual delay in getting this bird to it's final resting place strikes some of us as mysterious. And people in general, and men in particular, love to solve mysteries.
> 
> As for me, I'm in the camp that thinks D12 is going to be primarily for premium channels like HBO and additional PPV/Cinema offerings (up to 400!), and since I don't watch either, I'm not that concerned. But I am intrigued.


But... then again... its still within the original requested window from December. This indicates nothing more than the fact that its still within the official schedule that was filed with the FCC.

Of course, if one wants to solve the mystery of why DirecTV is adhering to its schedule, be my guest.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I do have sad news.  See my signature.


----------



## wmb

Tom Robertson said:


> I do have sad news.  See my signature.


a little gasoline for the bonfire, heh?


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> For? Getting people like you to panic?


No, for having the courage to tell us something that makes sense. BTW, what's your agenda here ? Are you trying to get a free HR24 from Directv ?


----------



## loudo

Tom Robertson said:


> I do have sad news.  See my signature.


:icon_cry:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SPACEMAKER said:


> :lol: I love this.


I'm glad you agree. 

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> No, for having the courage to tell us something that makes sense. BTW, what's your agenda here ? Are you trying to get a free HR24 from Directv ?


I like my HR24. I also like turtles, rainbows and unicorns. Turn offs include mean people, crunchy peanut butter, the Iraq, and such as.


----------



## bigyfoot30

slimoli said:


> So far, Lord Vader is my only hero here. All the other "reliable sources" are just messing with us.


Thats because all the other "reliable sources" are tired of telling you to just relax and let it happen WHEN it happens. "D" is not now or never has worked according to your schedule or your expectations. All the whining in the world won't change that :nono:


----------



## BudShark

LameLefty said:


> I like my HR24. I also like turtles, rainbows and unicorns. Turn offs include mean people, crunchy peanut butter, the Iraq, and such as.


Now the turtle unicorn in the opening of Phineas and Ferb is da bomb... of course, he doesn't exist.  Kinda like D12... I think they staged the launch of D12 in a studio in Hollywood.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> No, for having the courage to tell us something that makes sense. BTW, what's your agenda here ? Are you trying to get a free HR24 from Directv ?


My agenda is to continue to laugh at your fear, panic, & lack of logic.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> No, for having the courage to tell us something that makes sense. BTW, what's your agenda here ? Are you trying to get a free HR24 from Directv ?


It makes sense to you...not to me. I'm just sayin' :grin:

Personally I prefer to apply a little logic to what we already know to come up with something that make sense instead of blindingly following what someone else says.

Mike


----------



## Sandy

Athlon646464 said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


+1


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Mod had on>Please remember to play nice with each other.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## bigyfoot30

Tom Robertson said:


> <Mod had on>Please remember to play nice with each other.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Tom,, you killed the thread, Now nobody has anything to say,, lol (and just when we were having fun) !Devil_lol


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914 said:


> My agenda is to continue to laugh at your fear, panic, & lack of logic.


Fear, panic--the Dark Side are they. !Devil_lol


----------



## trdrjeff

Standing there alone
the sat is waiting
all systems are go
are you sure?
DBS is not convinced
but the mods
has the evidence
"no need to abort"
the countdown starts

watching in a trance
Boeing is certain
nothing left to chance
all is working
trying to relax
up in the uplink
"send me up a drink"
jokes Major Tom (Robertson)
the count goes on

4 3 2 1
Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
calling calling home...

second stage is cut
we're now in orbit
solar array up
running perfect
starting to collect
requested HD
what will it effect
when all is done
thinks Major Tom

back at DBS
there is a problem
go to rockets full
not responding
"hello Major Tom
are you receiving
turn the thrusters on
Sixto's standing by"
there's no reply

4 3 2 1
Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
calling calling home...

across the stratosphere
a final message
"give TravelHD my love"
then nothing more

far beneath the sat
the forum is mourning
they don't realize
D12's alive
no one understands
but Major Tom sees
now the life commands
this is my home
I'm coming home

Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
coming home...
Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
coming home...
Earth below us
drifting falling
floating weightless
coming coming home...
home.....


----------



## Alan Gordon

Given the trustworthiness of the people who say D12 is fine, and the fact that there were ZERO REASONS to believe D12 was anything OTHER than fine, I simply laughed anytime I came into this thread to read "the sky is falling posts", and sometime today, I too changed my avatar to Chicken Little in order to shine a light on the worry-warts residing in this thread.

However, since that time, new information has come to my attention. That information is that DirecTV intends to offer HD-LIL to the Albany, GA DMA.

This information has convinced me of two things. One, that Hell has frozen over (I knew getting snow this year was a sign of things to come), and two, D12 has been completely destroyed and the TLEs we've been seeing are for the wreckage of what once was D12. 

I'm also convinced that the rest of the DirecTV satellite fleet will now self-destruct, and that DirecTV will finally roll out Albany, GA HD-LIL in another 12 years.... if the end of the world doesn't happen in 2012.

~Alan


----------



## spartanstew

I haven't checked in on this thread in awhile. 

Can anyone tell me the status of D12?


----------



## Lord Vader

Its dilithium crystals have deteriorated and need molecular regeneration.


----------



## RobertE




----------



## Groundhog45

I'm glad Major Tom has us covered.


----------



## alnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> I do have sad news.  See my signature.


The bad news is you support the Packers. Go Bears.


----------



## smiddy

bigyfoot30 said:


> Tom,, you killed the thread, Now nobody has anything to say,, lol (and just when we were having fun) !Devil_lol


It's all fun and games until someone loses an avatar.


----------



## smiddy

spartanstew said:


> I haven't checked in on this thread in awhile.
> 
> Can anyone tell me the status of D12?


Nope, the status is nigh!


----------



## longrider

Groundhog45 said:


> I'm glad Major Tom has us covered.


Ground control to Major Tom
The circuit's dead there's something wrong
Can you hear me Major Tom?
Can you hear me Major Tom?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

The STA extension for testing at 76 W expires on April 19, is that when it'll start drifting?


----------



## James Long

Didn't Chicken Little end up being RIGHT in that movie? There was a problem and he was the hero saved the day?
Is calling the D12 doubters Chicken Little some coded way of saying "yes, you're right - there is a problem"? 

(Nah, I don't think so ... but conspiracy theories can be so much fun.)


----------



## P Smith

Perhaps some graphical representation of station keeping will tell you something.
Particular point of interest - what changed after March 1st ?

For reference: E14 during IOT keep gap's deviation in a range 4-7 km. As D12 did same from Feb,12 to March, 1st.


----------



## Alan Gordon

James Long said:


> Didn't Chicken Little end up being RIGHT in that movie? There was a problem and he was the hero saved the day?


DUDE?! Spoiler alerts, hello?! I haven't watched my Blu-ray yet!! 

~Alan


----------



## James Long

Alan Gordon said:


> DUDE?! Spoiler alerts, hello?! I haven't watched my Blu-ray yet!!


Don't worry ... the ending may be different on blu-ray.


----------



## JLucPicard

alnielsen said:


> The bad news is you support the Packers. Go Bears.


Packers??? Bears???

Hah! I laugh at you!!!

Goooooo Vikes!

Sorry - :backtotop


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

JLucPicard said:


> Packers??? Bears???
> 
> Hah! I laugh at you!!!
> 
> Goooooo Vikes!
> 
> Sorry - :backtotop


Lions all the way this year!


----------



## cdhinch

Tom Robertson said:


> I do have sad news.  See my signature.


Your mean!

:bad_nono: :icon_stup


----------



## James Long

cdhinch said:


> Your mean!
> 
> :bad_nono: :icon_stup


Whose mean? Tom's mean? Do you need his mean?
I think he left it around here somewhere ...

(Or did you mean "You're mean!" ?)


----------



## Jeremy W

James Long said:


> Whose mean? Tom's mean? Do you need his mean?
> I think he left it around here somewhere ...


It's probably somewhere near his mode and his median.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> Its dilithium crystals have deteriorated and need molecular regeneration.


We need to find the nuclear wessels?


----------



## bb37

MicroBeta said:


> Lord Vader said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its dilithium crystals have deteriorated and need molecular regeneration.
> 
> 
> 
> We need to find the nuclear wessels?
Click to expand...

I think you guys have your franchises confused.


----------



## MartyS

I think that some folks need to realize this it TV we're talking about... 

The number of "conspiracy theories" that are being thrown around are absolutely incredible.

No news is good news. May 5th is a target date. Until something is announced that would change that all this is nothing but speculation.

With people out here making personal attacks on each other over rumors and innuendos, it's no wonder that "sources" are being quiet. 

Time to move on, folks... let it rest until something is actually announced!


----------



## flapperdink

i see on the FCC's licensing application search that the "transfer of control" request from John Malone to Larry Hunter is still pending. could this process be what is holding up the approval of the STA to drift? of course, this assumes D* is done testing, which cannot be confirmed. just curious if this has a part in the delay.

this site says S2797 (D12) is one of the affected satellites in the transfer of control request 
http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=809601


----------



## David MacLeod

D12 has run rampant and is now heading to take out D11 and D10.
back to OTA.


----------



## BudShark

David MacLeod said:


> D12 has run *rampart* and is now heading to take out D11 and D10.
> back to OTA.


D12 has built a defensive wall around itself?


----------



## TBlazer07

Wait a second ..... I thought we were talking about a hip-hop group? So you're saying D12 is a spaceship?

Well then ...... Never Mind


----------



## David MacLeod

BudShark said:


> D12 has built a defensive wall around itself?


spell check hit me with an r instead of an n


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Well, my birthday is tomorrow and I'm hoping D12 will start to drift to its assigned orbital slot as a present for me.


----------



## syphix

{sigh}

Maybe I'm alone here, but I'm growing tired of clicking on this thread in hopes of seeing actual news, only to have to weed through song lyrics and general hysteria. Can we either start a new thread that is locked down to LameLefty/Sixto/etc. and actually will release news of D12, or can we lock this thread down until there IS some actual news on D12?


----------



## flapperdink

syphix said:


> {sigh}
> 
> Maybe I'm alone here, but I'm growing tired of clicking on this thread in hopes of seeing actual news, only to have to weed through song lyrics and general hysteria. Can we either start a new thread that is locked down to LameLefty/Sixto/etc. and actually will release news of D12, or can we lock this thread down until there IS some actual news on D12?


i think that's the purpose of this thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806


----------



## syphix

flapperdink said:


> i think that's the purpose of this thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806


/subscribed. Thanks. I'll leave you all to the chaos and I'll be back when there's confirmation of the drift!


----------



## LameLefty

Keep talkin' that Blah Blah Blah.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> I like my HR24. I also like turtles, rainbows and unicorns. Turn offs include mean people, crunchy peanut butter, the Iraq, and such as.


Dude, crunchy peanut butter is as American as Apple Pie and Baseball. You must be turned off by freedom too 



JLucPicard said:


> Packers??? Bears???
> 
> Hah! I laugh at you!!!
> 
> Goooooo Vikes!
> 
> Sorry - :backtotop


yer all wrong, its the Lions for the Super Bowl 



flapperdink said:


> i see on the FCC's licensing application search that the "transfer of control" request from John Malone to Larry Hunter is still pending. could this process be what is holding up the approval of the STA to drift? of course, this assumes D* is done testing, which cannot be confirmed. just curious if this has a part in the delay.
> 
> this site says S2797 (D12) is one of the affected satellites in the transfer of control request
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=809601


I believe we are still waiting for the new Drift app to be approved...


----------



## flapperdink

jefbal99 said:


> I believe we are still waiting for the new Drift app to be approved...


understood, but you don't think the pending transfer of control application has an affect on the drift approval? my take is the "owner" is still not fully defined until the transfer of control is complete, therefore, there is no clearly defined "owner" for whom the FCC approves the drift to. it's clear the S2797 (D12) is one of the satellites listed as being affected by the transfer of control application. to sum it up, bureaucratic red tape is holding up the drift.


----------



## BudShark

flapperdink said:


> understood, but you don't think the pending transfer of control application has an affect on the drift approval? my take is the "owner" is still not fully defined until the transfer of control is complete, therefore, there is no clearly defined "owner" for whom the FCC approves the drift to. it's clear the S2797 (D12) is one of the satellites listed as being affected by the transfer of control application. to sum it up, bureaucratic red tape is holding up the drift.


Under the assumption that anything is holding up the drift... which is possible. But, yes, its not too long of a stretch to imagine that the FCC told DirecTV to get this transfer done with and out of the way.

I, on the other hand, believe D12 has been taken ransom by some aliens because they believe we have their little alien kid on Earth. D12 will be delivered to 103 only AFTER we return the little alien kid.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Under the assumption that anything is holding up the drift... which is possible. But, yes, its not too long of a stretch to imagine that the FCC told DirecTV to get this transfer done with and out of the way.
> 
> I, on the other hand, believe D12 has been taken ransom by some aliens because they believe we have their little alien kid on Earth. D12 will be delivered to 103 only AFTER we return the little alien kid.


Don't be ridiculous. This lady has things well under control with regard to the aliens. :nono:


----------



## jefbal99

Tle 149



Code:


1 36131u 09075a   10103.18071072 -.00000241  00000-0  10000-3 0  1495
2 36131 000.0466 029.1702 0002057 060.3681 100.7451 01.00270951  1139


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Tle 149
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 36131u 09075a   10103.18071072 -.00000241  00000-0  10000-3 0  1495
> 2 36131 000.0466 029.1702 0002057 060.3681 100.7451 01.00270951  1139


Saw that this morning when I got up.



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-13 04:20:13
Orbit # at Epoch	113
Inclination		0.047
RA of A. Node		29.170
Eccentricity		0.0002057
Argument of Perigee	60.368
Revs per day		1.00270951
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		100.745
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	149 / 0 day(s)

Not a big change.


----------



## flapperdink

BudShark said:


> I, on the other hand, believe D12 has been taken ransom by some aliens because they believe we have their little alien kid on Earth. D12 will be delivered to 103 only AFTER we return the little alien kid.


HAHA. Do you think they will take cat food as ransom instead of the alien kid? Because hey, we need to be able to fire those weapons we found in the alien ship at Roswell.


----------



## Camman41

BudShark said:


> Under the assumption that anything is holding up the drift... which is possible. But, yes, its not too long of a stretch to imagine that the FCC told DirecTV to get this transfer done with and out of the way.
> 
> I, on the other hand, believe D12 has been taken ransom by some aliens because they believe we have their little alien kid on Earth. D12 will be delivered to 103 only AFTER we return the little alien kid.


Wait! That woman from Tennessee just sent that adopted 'little kid' back to Russia....where D12 was launched! Hummm?


----------



## Lee L

Rikinky said:


> Here's some fuel to the fire of speculation. Directv has now updated their website that once stated "Now with the capacity for 200 HD Channels" to 130 HD Channels. and they have cut all adds and commercials boasting about the capacity for 200 HD Channels. So question? Why?


Taking that language off could just be part of some ongoing settlement talks or posturing from legal arguments between Dish and DirecTV since they both have sued each other recently over what they say are misleading ads.


----------



## EagleClaw

Thanks for the update LL 



LameLefty said:


> Saw that this morning when I got up.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-13 04:20:13
> Orbit # at Epoch	113
> Inclination		0.047
> RA of A. Node		29.170
> Eccentricity		0.0002057
> Argument of Perigee	60.368
> Revs per day		1.00270951
> Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> [B]Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 796 km[/B]
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		100.745
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	149 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Not a big change.


----------



## Carl Spock

flapperdink said:


> syphix said:
> 
> 
> 
> {sigh}
> 
> Maybe I'm alone here, but I'm growing tired of clicking on this thread in hopes of seeing actual news, only to have to weed through song lyrics and general hysteria. Can we either start a new thread that is locked down to LameLefty/Sixto/etc. and actually will release news of D12, or can we lock this thread down until there IS some actual news on D12?
> 
> 
> 
> i think that's the purpose of this thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806
Click to expand...

What a great option. Subscribed.

It will be perfect for notifications as the new channels come on line.


----------



## johnner1999

my best guess no drift till April 21


----------



## Greg Alsobrook




----------



## BudShark

johnner1999 said:


> my best guess no drift till April 21


:lol: Was that a random date or does it contain some significance?


----------



## Rikinky

My guess is April 21st because. Apriil 19th will be the end of the 30 day extension, and we all know big things usually happen on Wednesday's which would be the 21st. Just a guess...


----------



## oldfantom

Rikinky said:


> My guess is April 21st because. Apriil 19th will be the end of the 30 day extension, and we all know big things usually happen on Wednesday's which would be the 21st. Just a guess...


I don't think the Wednesday thing applies here. the drift will happen when they are ready to move it.


----------



## TBlazer07

jefbal99 said:


> I believe we are still waiting for the new Drift app to be approved...


I checked iTunes and don't see that app.


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> My guess is April 21st because. Apriil 19th will be the end of the 30 day extension, and we all know big things usually happen on Wednesday's which would be the 21st. Just a guess...


That would be great but even the fanboys here don't look so confident anymore.


----------



## Tom Robertson

flapperdink said:


> i see on the FCC's licensing application search that the "transfer of control" request from John Malone to Larry Hunter is still pending. could this process be what is holding up the approval of the STA to drift? of course, this assumes D* is done testing, which cannot be confirmed. just curious if this has a part in the delay.
> 
> this site says S2797 (D12) is one of the affected satellites in the transfer of control request
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=809601


A serious question. Been a long time since we've had one of those. 

Change of ownership doesn't affect the operations side of things. I think the FCC does watch ownership changes on satellite companies a bit more closely than some, they also know that satellite operations must not stop or be slowed. Or bad things could happen. 

The ownership change _could_ take months, tho I don't think this will be one of those.

So the operational move definitely won't wait. Based upon what I'm hearing about D12, I have to believe the move will start fairly soon. Maybe anon. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think if we all look up and hope real hard...


----------



## BudShark

slimoli said:


> That would be great but even the fanboys here don't look so confident anymore.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: <gasp> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: <gasp> :lol: :lol: :lol: ahhhh....

I think the moderators, LameLefty, Sixto, and others are pretty confident that D12 will move, D12 will provide HD to DirecTV subscribers as planned, and that nothing is wrong with D12 that impacts that.

Why hasn't it moved? Cuz people who are in charge and know more than we do are having fun watching this forum explode...  Just like they did with D10, and D11...


----------



## Lt Disher

I have a question for those in the know here about FCC approvals, etc. What approvals would be needed if the satellite is still at its present position after April 19? If they are not ready to move it and for some reason they don't want to do more testing, is some sort of approval needed to keep it at its present location? In other words, can it just sit there without some sort of FCC approval document?


----------



## BudShark

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think if we all look up and hope real hard...


!rolling... By far the best Avatar...


----------



## BudShark

Lt Disher said:


> I have a question for those in the know here about FCC approvals, etc. What approvals would be needed if the satellite is still at its present position after April 19? If they are not ready to move it and for some reason they don't want to do more testing, is some sort of approval needed to keep it at its present location? In other words, can it just sit there without some sort of FCC approval document?


No, its at 76 under a STA (temporary agreement). It has to move to 103 or they need to have some serious discussions with the FCC.


----------



## Hoosier205

slimoli said:


> That would be great but even the fanboys here don't look so confident anymore.


I am the self-declared President of the DirecTV Apologists (Realists) Club...known by some as fanboys. I still have my confident face on since...well...you know...we have absolutely no reason not to.

BTW...we are in need of a Vice-President if anyone is interested. We have a clear line of succession in case of assassination or otherwise untimely death.


----------



## smiddy

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think if we all look up and hope real hard...


Awesome avatar man!


----------



## flapperdink

Tom Robertson said:


> A serious question. Been a long time since we've had one of those.
> 
> Change of ownership doesn't affect the operations side of things. I think the FCC does watch ownership changes on satellite companies a bit more closely than some, they also know that satellite operations must not stop or be slowed. Or bad things could happen.
> 
> The ownership change _could_ take months, tho I don't think this will be one of those.
> 
> So the operational move definitely won't wait. Based upon what I'm hearing about D12, I have to believe the move will start fairly soon. Maybe anon.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


thanks for the reply. i'm just trying to think of credible events that would cause the delay (besides ransom for the release of alien hostages)...doing my own research through the FCC's licensing portal i came across those pending applications.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> That would be great but even the fanboys here don't look so confident anymore.


How do you figure that...maybe just being contrary I guess. 

I'm confident (not that what I think counts for much :grin and the rest of us "fanboys", "DirecTV shills", "DirecTV apologists", "Kool-Aid drinkers" seem pretty confident too. Some people just aren't listening or maybe choosing to listen to doom prophecies. 

More to the topic, how much variance in a TLE for a geostationary object can one expect? I'm assuming that what we've seen so far is within tolerance? I'm guessing but it seems that the type of satellite would come into play in what is an allowable variance. 

Mike


----------



## FHSPSU67

smiddy said:


> Awesome avatar man!


Not so bad yourself, but I think Stuart's the uncontested (contested?) winner!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think you're all hilarious.


----------



## MartyS

FHSPSU67 said:


> Not so bad yourself, but I think Stuart's the uncontested (contested?) winner!


Yeah, Stuart has it hands down.


----------



## jefbal99

Lt Disher said:


> I have a question for those in the know here about FCC approvals, etc. What approvals would be needed if the satellite is still at its present position after April 19? If they are not ready to move it and for some reason they don't want to do more testing, is some sort of approval needed to keep it at its present location? In other words, can it just sit there without some sort of FCC approval document?


If another extension wasn't approved, then I think it would just sit there until DirecTV filed something with the FCC. They wouldn't be authorized for any Earth to Space or Space to Earth testing, just station keeping.


----------



## wavemaster

So we have heard at least a thousand times that everything is good, everything is going as planned - (I guess according to the most recent plan?) seeing how D12 was supposed to be a ground spare wasn't it? 

I am not saying there is anything catastrophically wrong but at the same time I am willing to bet (say $100.00) that after is all said and done we find out there were issues. (maybe similar to D10). 

Any Takers?


----------



## slimoli

MicroBeta said:


> How do you figure that...maybe just being contrary I guess.
> 
> Mike


No, just an observation. The fanboys are no longer posting the "everything is fine" and Doug and others are now just joking with the "D11 is fine" on their signatures. Can be just a joke (I hope so) or an easy way to say "we no longer know if everything is fine".

If we have 100% of people here just cheering, there is no discussion, there is no opinion, there is no guesses, there is no forum at all. Is that what you suggest ? :eek2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> No, just an observation. The fanboys are no longer posting the "everything is fine" and Doug and others are now just joking with the "D11 is fine" on their signatures. Can be just a joke (I hope so) or an easy way to say "we no longer know if everything is fine".


And, you're taking that seriously... !rolling

Now about my previous TLE question....anyone...anyone? 

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> No, just an observation. The fanboys are no longer posting the "everything is fine" and Doug and others are now just joking with the "D11 is fine" on their signatures. *Can be just a joke *(I hope so) or an easy way to say "we no longer know if everything is fine".
> 
> If we have 100% of people here just cheering, there is no discussion, there is no opinion, there is no guesses, there is no forum at all. Is that what you suggest ? :eek2:


The sky is falling! Run away! Run away! :lol:


----------



## slimoli

wavemaster said:


> So we have heard at least a thousand times that everything is good, everything is going as planned - (I guess according to the most recent plan?) seeing how D12 was supposed to be a ground spare wasn't it?
> 
> I am not saying there is anything catastrophically wrong but at the same time I am willing to bet (say $100.00) that after is all said and done we find out there were issues. (maybe similar to D10).
> 
> Any Takers?


My take is there is something wrong but not enough to be considered a disaster. We will know , one way or the other, in few days.


----------



## JeffBowser

Uh-Oh. Non carbonated artificially flavored beverages have now been mentioned. Normally this signals the end of a thread. 



MicroBeta said:


> I'm confident (not that what I think counts for much :grin and the rest of us "fanboys", "DirecTV shills", "DirecTV apologists", "Kool-Aid drinkers" seem pretty confident too. Some people just aren't listening or maybe choosing to listen to doom prophecies.
> 
> Mike


----------



## trdrjeff

lol, someone really should compile a list of people claiming its spacejunk now


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Eh... I'm willing to let this one go on a while longer so long as you all play nice.


----------



## LameLefty

JeffBowser said:


> Uh-Oh. Non carbonated artificially flavored beverages have now been mentioned. Normally this signals the end of a thread.


Well, SOME slimy SOB has already dropped the "F-Bomb" and no one's shut the thread down. :grin:

("Fanboy" a/k/a "Fanboi"  ).


----------



## Doug Brott

slimoli said:


> That would be great but even the fanboys here don't look so confident anymore.


Uh, what is a fanboy of D12? Wouldn't that pretty much be every single person visiting this thread? It's a satellite. I'd think non-fanboys would simply steer clear because it's boring technical stuff.

although the past couple of weeks have diverted more towards a lot of antsy behavior

My sig stills stands


----------



## wmb

flapperdink said:


> thanks for the reply. i'm just trying to think of credible events that would cause the delay (besides ransom for the release of alien hostages)...doing my own research through the FCC's licensing portal i came across those pending applications.


My guess is that each time they consult their magic eighht ball, is says "Reply hazy, try again later". Sometime in the next few days, they will realize that the problem is actually with the eight ball, get a new one, it will say "Signs point to yes" and off they go!


----------



## Rikinky

!pusht!


----------



## slimoli

Doug Brott said:


> My sig stills stands


Nope, it has changed.:sure:


----------



## nd bronco fan

Tom Robertson said:


> Based upon what I'm hearing about D12, I have to believe the move will start fairly soon. Maybe anon.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Most people are not weighing this message enough. Thats all I needed, this is the week!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

slimoli said:


> My take is there is something wrong but not enough to be considered a disaster. We will know , one way or the other, in few days.


My take is that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAS CHANGED! Seriously. I know exactly the same thing today that I knew in January. I've been told that D12 is going to be on service as planned. I have no reason to doubt my source. There has been zero news posted about a problem .. No News == NOTHING HAS CHANGED!

So, carry on ...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am fairly sure at this point the entire reason for the delay is because of one or two guys who keep complaining that they don't get the travel channel in HD.


----------



## crabtrp

I got tired of waiting so I got up on the roof and pointed my dish at 76. Travel Channel HD looks a bit grainy but BBC America HD looks great.


----------



## BudShark

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am fairly sure at this point the entire reason for the delay is because of one or two guys who keep complaining that they don't get the travel channel in HD.


!rolling... Ok, that made me laugh and people at work look at me weird...


----------



## slimoli

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am fairly sure at this point the entire reason for the delay is because of one or two guys who keep complaining that they don't get the travel channel in HD.


To be honest, I only watch 2 non-hd channels : AMC and travel.


----------



## Tom Robertson

slimoli said:


> No, just an observation. The fanboys are no longer posting the "everything is fine" and Doug and others are now just joking with the "D11 is fine" on their signatures. Can be just a joke (I hope so) or an easy way to say "we no longer know if everything is fine".
> 
> If we have 100% of people here just cheering, there is no discussion, there is no opinion, there is no guesses, there is no forum at all. Is that what you suggest ? :eek2:


How frequently do I need to post that D12 is fine? Hourly? Couple of times a day? With each update?

My last update confirmed she is fine. Fairly recently. (I don't get hourly updates, daily updates, or regularly scheduled updates. My sources have jobs and I have a life. Neither include daily D12 updates to forward on.) 

D12 will happily move when all the paperwork is filed, all the test data has been preliminarily examined, the coffee pot has been refilled, and there won't be interference moving D12. (I don't know of any other moves going on right now, but that could cause a delay potentially.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## JeffBowser

Anyone get the feeling that the mods and experts, as a collective group, are getting really fed up with the "antsiness" ? :lol: I don't think I've seen that before to this degree


----------



## Alan Gordon

David MacLeod said:


> D12 has run rampant and is now heading to take out D11 and D10.


So... what you're saying is that this is reminiscent of when DirecTV "lost control" of SpaceWay-1 several years back?!   

Does anyone remember that?!

BTW, I agree with everyone else. Stuart's avatar is the best!

~Alan


----------



## Rikinky

Ok I figured out why it's taking so long to get D12 operational. The powers that be are constructing D12 to be able to resist the solar flares that are going to take place on December 21, 2012, that will result in the end of the world, and the good news is after the construction of this satellite we will all be able to watch the end of the world in 3D HD from our living rooms and Directv will exclusively be the only provider to bring all the action live!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

For those who are embracing the fun and games of it all... check this out: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175621


----------



## LameLefty

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am fairly sure at this point the entire reason for the delay is because of one or two guys who keep complaining that they don't get the travel channel in HD.


!rolling


----------



## BudShark

JeffBowser said:


> Anyone get the feeling that the mods and experts, as a collective group, are getting really fed up with the "antsiness" ? :lol: I don't think I've seen that before to this degree


This degree is rare (it happens, and makes this site more fun and friendly than others out there - although some will always take it the wrong way unfortunately)... but I will say, DirecTV tends to not move satellites when people want them moved, and this results in a series of outlandish theories about the destruction and subsequent ramifications... and then the satellite moves within its planned window/schedule and people are happy and move on.

This isn't new. Its actually quite common when people who know nothing about a subject begin reading tea leaves (myself included). Hence I rely on people I KNOW from the past to have been accurate, factual, and reliable. For this thread its Sixto, Lefty, Doug, Tom, Stuart. And they are 5/5 on the "She's a good bird and will be coming home soon" boat. There are others who have no basis for their theories I tend to not believe...


----------



## James Long

BudShark said:


> No, its at 76 under a STA (temporary agreement). It has to move to 103 or they need to have some serious discussions with the FCC.


It isn't doing any harm at 76 ... the serious discussion would be on the level of sticking another quarter in the parking meter.
"Can we stay here a little longer?" "Yep."



LameLefty said:


> The sky is falling! Run away! Run away! :lol:


Wrong franchise. "Run away!" is Monty Python.



crabtrp said:


> I got tired of waiting so I got up on the roof and pointed my dish at 76. Travel Channel HD looks a bit grainy but BBC America HD looks great.


Yes, Travel Channel and BBCA do look pretty good in HD, although I'm getting them from 61.5 and 129.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Tom Robertson said:


> How frequently do I need to post that D12 is fine? Hourly? Couple of times a day? With each update?
> 
> My last update confirmed she is fine. Fairly recently. (I don't get hourly updates, daily updates, or regularly scheduled updates. My sources have jobs and I have a life. Neither include daily D12 updates to forward on.)
> 
> D12 will happily move when all the paperwork is filed, all the test data has been preliminarily examined, the coffee pot has been refilled, and there won't be interference moving D12. (I don't know of any other moves going on right now, but that could cause a delay potentially.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Mr.T

We're just a bunch of kids asking if we're there yet. :grin:


----------



## erosroadie

Stuart Sweet said:


> Eh... I'm willing to let this one go on a while longer so long as you all play nice.


In response to your signature statement at the bottom, my HR20 is also fine, thank you very much. It's D12 I'm worried about...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Hutchinshouse said:


> Thanks Mr.T
> 
> We're just a bunch of kids asking if we're there yet. :grin:


Since I'm not driving a car right now, go ahead and ask. All in good fun. Straight up asking, especially the creative ones, add to the general fun. 

As for particular channels... well I can't say. I can't even tell a good story. Tho 12 is a particularly good number, even tho it was the second. And while I'm likely losing many of you, "Lost in translation" does not refer to a movie... Well, ok it does... sorta...

And I suppose I'm a bit cranky with the "aha, mods haven't said anything in the last 10 seconds" theories. Or maybe I just have a cold today.


----------



## Go Beavs

Stuart Sweet said:


> Eh... I'm willing to let this one go on a while longer so long as you all play nice.


Thanks Stuart! This thread has been extremely entertaining lately...

[hits F5 again]


----------



## PkDog

Rikinky said:


> Ok I figured out why it's taking so long to get D12 operational. The powers that be are constructing D12 to be able to resist the solar flares that are going to take place on December 21, 2012, that will result in the end of the world, and the good news is after the construction of this satellite we will all be able to watch the end of the world in 3D HD from our living rooms and Directv will exclusively be the only provider to bring all the action live!


I think I will record this and watch it later --


----------



## trdrjeff

I have a message. D12... DirecTV's Satellite... was shot down... over the Sea of Japan. It spun in. There were no survivors.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I believe that was Col. Henry Blake, not DIRECTV12.


----------



## hyde76

Stuart Sweet said:


> I believe that was Col. Henry Blake, not DIRECTV12.


Ahh, the good old days, of basic cable.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Wrong franchise. "Run away!" is Monty Python.


"Go away or I shall taunt you a second time, you silly English k-nigits!" :lol:


----------



## Groundhog45

*Lefty* and others, when you post the analysis of the TLEs, it shows the Perigee x Apogee but I don't see the orbital location. Where does it say it's still at 76? I know the other two numbers will change but I assume those just show it's moving but not where its located.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hyde76 said:


> Ahh, the good old days, of basic cable.


I watch M*A*S*H all the time...and I *don't* have cable. 

Mike


----------



## hyde76

MicroBeta said:


> I watch M*A*S*H all the time...and I *don't* have cable.
> 
> Mike


Yes, but you watch it in syndication. I'll never forget where I was when the world lost Henry Blake. It was very sad on a very small TV that I used to change the channels with my feet.


----------



## James Long

If I understand correctly, DirecTV will have D12 online in time for Conan O'Brien's debut on TBS in November.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, Mr. Long, you're right, it will be online by that time... long before that time.


----------



## Hdhead

James Long said:


> If I understand correctly, DirecTV will have D12 online in time for Conan O'Brien's debut on TBS in November.


Heard it will be a remote broadcast via BSS from 76 degrees.:nono:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hyde76 said:


> Yes, but you watch it in syndication. I'll never forget where I was when the world lost Henry Blake. It was very sad on a very small TV that I used to change the channels with my feet.


A bit too much info, but OK. :eek2:

BTW, I watched in first run... 

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

Groundhog45 said:


> *Lefty* and others, when you post the analysis of the TLEs, it shows the Perigee x Apogee but I don't see the orbital location. Where does it say it's still at 76? I know the other two numbers will change but I assume those just show it's moving but not where its located.


I don't usually copy that data over because it "wobbles" a bit, especially so with the orbit not quite circular. As of about 90 seconds ago, based upon the current TLE, D12 was at:



Code:


Lon	76.0532° W
Lat	0.0041° N


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> I don't usually copy that data over because it "wobbles" a bit, especially so with the orbit not quite circular. As of about 90 seconds ago, based upon the current TLE, D12 was at:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Lon	76.0532° W
> Lat	0.0041° N


Pretty much status quo.

Mike


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

James Long said:


> If I understand correctly, DirecTV will have D12 online in time for Conan O'Brien's debut on TBS in November.


I heard they're giving that show to Jay Leno after 7 months :lol:


----------



## Groundhog45

LameLefty said:


> I don't usually copy that data over because it "wobbles" a bit, especially so with the orbit not quite circular. As of about 90 seconds ago, based upon the current TLE, D12 was at:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Lon	76.0532° W
> Lat	0.0041° N


Thank you.


----------



## Todd H

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am fairly sure at this point the entire reason for the delay is because of one or two guys who keep complaining that they don't get the travel channel in HD.


Haha!!...Hey wait a second... :lol:


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> As for particular channels... well I can't say. I can't even tell a good story. Tho 12 is a particularly good number, even tho it was the second. And while I'm likely losing many of you, "Lost in translation" does not refer to a movie... Well, ok it does... sorta...


:eek2::eek2::eek2:​
ESPN Ocho?!?! 

~Alan


----------



## ATARI

Hey guys, I read a rumor that D12 won't move to final position until the new HD DirecTiVo is launched.

True or untrue?


----------



## tunce

ATARI said:


> Hey guys, I read a rumor that D12 won't move to final position until the new HD DirecTiVo is launched.
> 
> True or untrue?


HA, that vaporware product is on a longer track then D12!


----------



## dcowboy7

ATARI said:


> Hey guys, I read a rumor that D12 won't move to final position until the new HD DirecTiVo is launched.


I guess thats better than saying not until the "channels i get" issue is fixed.


----------



## bobnielsen

I predict that DLB and MRV will happen first.


----------



## jilardi2

bobnielsen said:


> I predict that DLB and MRV will happen first.


!pride!pride

i never noticed this smiley b4


----------



## Lancelink

JeffBowser said:


> Anyone get the feeling that the mods and experts, as a collective group, are getting really fed up with the "antsiness" ? :lol: I don't think I've seen that before to this degree


Yep


----------



## dcowboy7

JeffBowser said:


> Anyone get the feeling that the mods and experts, as a collective group, are getting really fed up with the "antsiness" ? :lol: I don't think I've seen that before to this degree


Its kinda like how rich eisen & adam schefter keep saying on their twitter accounts that people keep bugging them on when is the 2010 nfl sched is coming out & they keep having to say "soon."


----------



## thelucky1

For D12 to be a 103 "no later than May 5th" and with the 20-day drift...D12 has to begin drifting in the next day or so...right??? (barring any extension of course)


----------



## Rikinky

Why May 5th? who gave this timeline?


----------



## P Smith

oldfantom said:


> I don't think the Wednesday thing applies here. the drift will happen when they are ready to move it.


If you're in charge of that, then strange you have nothing to say about FCC authority to grant the move/drift.


----------



## thelucky1

Rikinky said:


> Why May 5th? who gave this timeline?


The FCC grant for testing at 76, mentions this date.
01/21/2010: FCC Grant for D12 RB-2A (BSS) for testing at 76°:

As well as 03/08/2010: FCC Grant for D12 Drift to 103°:

I don't see/read any additional FCC paperwork that has ever changed that date. Even with the extension application, the "no later than May 5th" date as never changed.


----------



## bigyfoot30

dcowboy7 said:


> Its kinda like how rich eisen & adam schefter keep saying on their twitter accounts that people keep bugging them on when is the 2010 nfl sched is coming out & they keep having to say "soon."


Yep,,, same thing


----------



## oldfantom

trdrjeff said:


> I have a message. D12... DirecTV's Satellite... was shot down... over the Sea of Japan. It spun in. There were no survivors.


That still puts a tear in my eye. Not the D12 thing. I guess I just need to move on..

In other news, I have changed my mind. Everything is fine with D12. I will, once again, waffle with my next post. Thus it will be a tradition.

But on the sad news in the D* forums, Tom has a cold. Small print, you may have missed it. All you folks with Chicken Little avatars had best hope that he doesn't need soup.

For those of you in need of a good conspiracy rumor, it has been 40 years to the day since Apollo 13 blew a tank and spawned "Houston, we had a problem." This is the perfect day for bad space related news press releases.

Finally, another 388.5 directv subs have (potentially) died waiting for the new satellite to deliver as another day has passed. Oh the humanity.


----------



## oldfantom

P Smith said:


> If you're in charge of that, then strange you have nothing to say about FCC authority to grant the move/drift.


From where I sit, I appear to be in charge of two things .... and Jack just left.


----------



## Alan Gordon

oldfantom said:


> For those of you in need of a good conspiracy rumor, it has been 40 years to the day since Apollo 13 blew a tank and spawned "Houston, we had a problem." This is the perfect day for bad space related news press releases.


Amazon is shipping my Blu-ray copy today. 



oldfantom said:


> Finally, another 388.5 directv subs have (potentially) died waiting for the new satellite to deliver as another day has passed. Oh the humanity.


Some of them were SD customers though! 

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

Britney sez new TLE this afternoon. Time to panic.



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-13 08:29:08
Orbit # at Epoch	113
Inclination		0.063
RA of A. Node		28.811
Eccentricity		0.0001857
Argument of Perigee	64.507
Revs per day		1.00270649
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 795 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		159.361
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	150 / 0 day(s)

I think I'll go contemplate life without more HD. Maybe I'll go sleep on the train tracks tonight. Woe is me, woe is me.


----------



## texasmoose

LameLefty said:


> Britney sez new TLE this afternoon. Time to panic.
> 
> I think I'll go contemplate life without more HD. Maybe I'll go sleep on the train tracks tonight. Woe is me, woe is me.


WTF?!?!?!:eek2:


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> ESPN Ocho?!?!


They're only up to ESPN 3. ESPN 4-7 still haven't launched, so it will be a while.


----------



## Beerstalker

Well technically that is true, but if you consider this:

ESPN
ESPN 2
ESPN 360 (soon to be ESPN 3 from what I have read)
ESPN News (ESPN 4?)
ESPN Classic (ESPN 5?)
ESPN U (ESPN 6?)
ESPN 3D (ESPN 7?)

We are getting close


----------



## GreatPig

Don't forget ESPN Deportes


----------



## Jeremy W

Beerstalker said:


> Well technically that is true, but if you consider this


I don't consider that. :lol: And ESPN 360 has already been converted to ESPN 3, so that's why I counted it.


----------



## Beerstalker

GreatPig said:


> Don't forget ESPN Deportes


That would make a good ESPN Ocho wouldn't it (since Ocho is Spanish for 8 and Deportes is the spanish ESPN channel).



Jeremy W said:


> I don't consider that. :lol: And ESPN 360 has already been converted to ESPN 3, so that's why I counted it.


Didn't realize that had already happened, cool. Too bad I can't use it at home (HughesNet service).


----------



## Robc22




----------



## steveholtam

Maybe this is the problem.

<-------------------------------------


----------



## smiddy

steveholtam said:


> Maybe this is the problem.
> 
> <-------------------------------------


Nah, there's no water in space. Everything we've read about Europa, Mars, it is all a lie, there's no water. No water, no ghremlins. 

But, but, there are those Decepticons:


----------



## whatliesbeyond

LameLefty said:


> Britney sez new TLE this afternoon. Time to panic.


Careful now. Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf. As I recall, a satellite fell on his head.


----------



## Piratefan98

Finally, some authoritative information on D12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D12

Jeff


----------



## steelerfanmike

stupid question.... If D12 was testing at 76 degrees and now its at 183.04 azimuth according to http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131

isn't it moving ??????


----------



## Alan Gordon

steelerfanmike said:


> stupid question.... If D12 was testing at 76 degrees and now its at 183.04 azimuth according to http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> isn't it moving ??????





Alan Gordon said:


> So... what you're saying is that this is reminiscent of when DirecTV "lost control" of SpaceWay-1 several years back?!
> 
> Does anyone remember that?!


IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN!!! NNNOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

In all seriousness now, I'll let other more knowledgeable people answer your question.

~Alan


----------



## mrtanner69

Has anyone else who subscribed to Sixto's update post found it killed the drama/tension of logging in wondering if there is news?


----------



## BudShark

Alan Gordon said:


> RUMOR: Due to contract stipulations, DirecTV-12 must remain
> stationary at 76° until the release of the new MPEG4 DirecTiVo.


:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

It may say 184° but the graphics show it at 76°ish.

BTW, I'm pretty sure it's not out over the Pacific Ocean right now. :lol:

actually that's from a given location not an actual longitude.

Mike


----------



## Sixto

steelerfanmike said:


> stupid question.... If D12 was testing at 76 degrees and now its at 183.04 azimuth according to http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> isn't it moving ??????


The first indicator right now is the drift approval.

It hasn't happened yet so not much else to look at. 

I'd assume it's not approved yet because DirecTV hasn't indicated to the FCC that they need the approval yet. There may be other reasons but my guess is they're finishing up something important.

Not concerning myself with whether D12 is early, on-schedule, off-schedule, late ... 

The only thing that matters (to me) is that DirecTV felt it important to further do some things at 76 and I trust they made the right business decision. A week or two either way isn't going to make any difference 3 months from now.

I also feel certain that the quantity of D12 national HD will be just as they planned.


----------



## RD in Fla

Sixto said:


> I also feel certain that the quantity of national HD will be just as they planned,


Will it be coming from D12 though?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RD in Fla said:


> Will it be coming from D12 though?


IMHO, Yes it will. 

Mike


----------



## MartyS

RD in Fla said:


> Will it be coming from D12 though?


AS long as it comes, what difference does it make?


----------



## Sixto

RD in Fla said:


> Will it be coming from D12 though?


Yes. 

Also fixed the post to clarify what was intended.


----------



## SpaceComo

Backing up what Sixto said! The Boeing MCC is very busy, it may just be that D12 is not the most important thing going on in space! Think about it, we have a lot of valuable men and women on foreign soil right now fighting for our honor and way of life and even our actual ability to watch HD, they need support!:eek2:


----------



## FHSPSU67

steelerfanmike said:


> stupid question.... If D12 was testing at 76 degrees and now its at 183.04 azimuth according to http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> isn't it moving ??????


D12 is at 76 W.Longitude, not the same as azimuth.


----------



## dcowboy7

RD in Fla said:


> Will it be coming from D12 though?





MartyS said:


> AS long as it comes, what difference does it make?


Well if it comes thru D14 then that would be in 2014.


----------



## RD in Fla

MartyS said:


> AS long as it comes, what difference does it make?


No argument there. Just a question.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> I also feel certain that the quantity of D12 national HD will be just as they planned.


Since I figure it's only a matter of time before somebody picks apart what you say, you might want to clarify your feelings about LOCAL HD as well! 

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson

FHSPSU67 said:


> D12 is at 76 W.Longitude, not the same as azimuth.


True. The Azimuth listed on the n2oy website is the direction to look from a given location. Steelerfanmike must live in the north east somewhere.

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

MartyS said:


> AS long as it comes, what difference does it make?


If it's not coming from D12, that would mean that DirecTV has started over-compressing their HD channels like Dish does.


----------



## FHSPSU67

MicroBeta said:


> True. The Azimuth listed on the n2oy website is the direction to look from a given location. Steelerfanmike must live in the north east somewhere.
> 
> Mike


Thanks Mike, for expanding. I've had a few really good beers tonight, and thought it better if I didn't try to explain any farther,!pepsi!(definitely not Pepsi!)


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> I also feel certain that the quantity of D12 national HD will be just as they planned.


As DirecTV planned ... but up to the desires of the customers?

There always seems to be the next HD channel to be added.


----------



## bobnielsen

steelerfanmike said:


> stupid question.... If D12 was testing at 76 degrees and now its at 183.04 azimuth according to http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> 
> isn't it moving ??????


Look at the longitude. The azimuth number is the bearing form the reference location.


----------



## makaiguy

Hutchinshouse said:


> We're just a bunch of kids asking if we're there yet. :grin:


SOME are. Others are conjecturing that we ain't gonna get there.


----------



## cebbigh

It's all a cover-up. This is what really happened to D12:






Sorry ... I just couldn't resist.:roundandr


----------



## CockerKingdom

E14 killed D12!


----------



## gslater

I've been very busy lately. Good to be employed but it doesn't allow me much time to follow this. I'm a little surprised by some of the posts I've read. Rather than doom and gloom aren't we waiting on the FCC? I haven't seen where the extension request for the drift has been granted yet or did I miss something?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> I also feel certain that the quantity of D12 national HD will be just as they planned.





James Long said:


> As DirecTV planned ... but up to the desires of the customers?


Absolutely not!

However, it will certainly help! 

~Alan


----------



## am7crew

As planned as in March 2010 like it was originally stated? Dont think so.........


----------



## James Long

July 7, 2007 ...
D10: 100 National HD Channels + 75 Markets
DIRECTV announced earlier this year that it will have the capacity to launch up to 100 national HD channels by the end of 2007, and offer local HD channels in up to 75 markets, following the launch of its D10 satellite this summer.
source​D11: 150 National HD Channels + 1500 Local Digital Channels
The DIRECTV 11 satellite will be launched early next year to support further HD expansion. With the two satellites, DIRECTV will have the ability to deliver more than 1,500 local HD and digital channels and 150 national HD channels, in addition to new advanced programming services for customers.
ibid​
Dec 29, 2009 ...
D12: 200 National HD Channels
DIRECTV 12 Boosts Satellite Fleet's Capacity to More Than 200 HD Channels; Begins Operation First Half of Next Year
source

The new satellite will boost DIRECTV's HD capacity by 50 percent, to more than 200 HD channels, increase the number of local HD markets DIRECTV will serve and significantly expand movie choices on the DIRECTV Cinema and DIRECTV on Demand services. DIRECTV offers more than 130 HD channels today and delivers local HD programming to 138 markets, representing 92 percent of U.S. TV households.​150 capacity + 50% = 225 (>200) ...

So, what's next? D12 will be in service sometime _before_ July per the press release (May is before July and would work for those waiting for channels). But at best DirecTV is adding 50-75 HD channels in an industry where more channels (for better or for worse) will be creating HD signals just to stay competitive with other channels.

Is there a next step? Another satellite that subscribers will wait with baited breath to be launched, tested and moved to the right location to be used?


----------



## Lt Disher

James Long said:


> So, what's next? D12 will be in service sometime _before_ July per the press release (May is before July and would work for those waiting for channels).


Actually the press release details say this, "When the satellite begins operations in the early second quarter of next year,"

The title says first half of 2010, but the copy is more specific.


----------



## georule

am7crew said:


> As planned as in March 2010 like it was originally stated? Dont think so.........


Do you really prefer that model? Because it is easy to achieve --just tell no one jack-sh*t about your plans until they are certain of completion.

That'll do it for you --and man, personally I hate the "I won't say a word until I'm already nearly done" model.

YMMV. As a customer, I prefer goals and timelines well in advance --knowing that the human condition means there will inevitably mean there is some FAIL that will inevitably be involved.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

am7crew said:


> As planned as in March 2010 like it was originally stated? Dont think so.........


I seem to remember DirecTV saying this year. I don't remember anything about March 2010.

I know that was speculated and hoped for around here but that was it. AAMOF, the press release cited by James Long above says nothing about a date for going live...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

FHSPSU67 said:


> Thanks Mike, for expanding. I've had a few really good beers tonight, and thought it better if I didn't try to explain any farther,!pepsi!(definitely not Pepsi!)


I like to have a few myself...Been there. 

Mike


----------



## BudShark

James Long said:


> So, what's next? D12 will be in service sometime _before_ July per the press release (May is before July and would work for those waiting for channels). But at best DirecTV is adding 50-75 HD channels in an industry where more channels (for better or for worse) will be creating HD signals just to stay competitive with other channels.
> 
> Is there a next step? Another satellite that subscribers will wait with baited breath to be launched, tested and moved to the right location to be used?


I think you've hit a market saturation point again.

At the point of 200+ HD channels, whats really left? What % of channels will DirecTV have that are NOT in HD? At what point do they begin shutting down a redundant or duplicate SD channel? When do consumers stop asking for a channel, and at what point do distribution companies say "We don't need Animal Planet III"?

200+ channels exceeds what cable can put out there. It exceeds the demands for the majority of customers. I think, as most businesses do, they begin to realize that 200+ HD channels is enough to get them 99+% of available customers. The 213 people who want Animal Planet III HD aren't worth the returns. And Dish Network running around saying we have 300 HD channels - well most people tend to just say "So what, I can't watch the 200+ I have now".

I think the focus becomes to new markets, new technologies, new opportunities, new revenue streams. I think we've about hit the end of the HD conversion process with D12. But thats just my un-edumacated opinion. :grin:


----------



## smiddy

Good morning all, this is my morning check in to see if the sky is indeed falling. So, is it?


----------



## ctaranto

BudShark said:


> I think you've hit a market saturation point again.


The number of national HD channels and the number of megapixels in a point and shoot camera is the same marketing scheme. More always sounds better, until you realise that isn't always true.

Jamming 18 megapixels onto a tiny sensor gives more noise. Jamming 200+ HD channels, some of which most never watch, also creates noise (at least while looking at the guide).

/c


----------



## MartyS

Jeremy W said:


> If it's not coming from D12, that would mean that DirecTV has started over-compressing their HD channels like Dish does.


Again, an assumption on your part that I don't necessarily agree with. Time will tell.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . the sky is still falling.



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-14 03:47:07
Orbit # at Epoch	114
Inclination		0.064
RA of A. Node		28.811
Eccentricity		0.0001864
Argument of Perigee	64.534
Revs per day		1.00270414
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 795 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		89.617
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	151 / 0 day(s)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

My take is that the testing at 76 is being elongated for the new technology package, and then it will be moved very soon...a few days here and there are still close to the reasonable window of the original target.


----------



## Ed Campbell

"I think you've hit a market saturation point again."

Uh, I remember the networks saying 13 channels is all the United States will ever need.


----------



## GregLee

BudShark said:


> At the point of 200+ HD channels, whats really left? What % of channels will DirecTV have that are NOT in HD?


All HD is left. Any % above 0 not in HD is too many. It's like the old issue of digital sound and video. I wanted all digital, and now I have it. Now I want all HD. Soon, I will want all 3D.


----------



## BudShark

GregLee said:


> All HD is left. Any % above 0 not in HD is too many. It's like the old issue of digital sound and video. I wanted all digital, and now I have it. Now I want all HD. Soon, I will want all 3D.


Something tells me there will (for the foreseeable future) be a gap - between shopping channels, foreign channels, religious and public service channels - there will be a gap.

But to answer James question - there is nothing primed or ready to go up. We either have to live with 200ish HD channels or start changing the # of channels on a TP.

Of course, neither of these matter if D12 really did implode.


----------



## BillyT2008

I think in order to conserve bandwith, DirectTV should parse the entire guide for each month. They should divide all SD from all HD programming (move all repeats to VOD channels, but in VOD only needed once), and create only as many channels as they need to, to show each program once per week. So, we'd wind up with maybe HD Broadcast Network Channel 1, SD Broadcast Network Channel 1, HD Channel 1 - 2, SD Channel 1 - 4, a few mostly live TV channels, like shopping, news and religion (sans the regular shows on those channels) and put the rest on VOD. Then, require every person to have a DVR. (There will be no more need for channel logos and markers and thus maybe we could remove the channel bugs.)

Or better yet, put every unique show once on VOD and only have channels left for live programming.


----------



## oldfantom

James Long said:


> Is there a next step? Another satellite that subscribers will wait with baited breath to be launched, tested and moved to the right location to be used?


Generally, you would not bait your breath. Irregardless, I guess the point is mute.

The English minor rears its ugly head. Sorry, baited is generally accepted, not in the same league with the other two I mentioned above.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm


----------



## Mike Bertelson

oldfantom said:


> Generally, you would not bait your breath. Irregardless, I guess the point is mute.
> 
> The English minor rears its ugly head. Sorry, baited is generally accepted, not in the same league with the other two I mentioned above.
> 
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm


Or, _regardless_ of how subject to debate it may be, the point could actually be _moot_ ...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## MRinDenver

MicroBeta said:


> Or, _regardless_ of how subject to debate it may be, the point could actually be _moot_ ...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


whatever it is that you are _just saying_, you are saying it correctly.


----------



## Lt Disher

MicroBeta said:


> AAMOF, the press release cited by James Long above says nothing about a date for going live...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


AAMOF, if I may quote from the press release.

"When the satellite begins operations in the early second quarter of next year"

and again a bit later,

"it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year."

Now, I will admit that a specific date certain is not listed, early second quarter of this year would be April or May.

I'm just saying.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lt Disher said:


> AAMOF, if I may quote from the press release.
> 
> "When the satellite begins operations in the early second quarter of next year"
> 
> and again a bit later,
> 
> "it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year."
> 
> Now, I will admit that a specific date certain is not listed, early second quarter of this year would be April or May.
> 
> I'm just saying.


Define begin operations. That could mean the new channels in testing before they go live to the subscribers. I know a lot of people would want to say it means watching the channels in their homes but I bet it's purposely worded ambiguously just to allow wiggle room.

At any rate "early...second quarter" certainly doesn't mean March, which was the purpose of my reply. 

Mike


----------



## ATARI

GregLee said:


> All HD is left. Any % above 0 not in HD is too many. It's like the old issue of digital sound and video. I wanted all digital, and now I have it. Now I want all HD. Soon, I will want all 3D.


I will never want all in 3D.


----------



## BudShark

MicroBeta said:


> Define begin operations. That could mean the new channels in testing before they go live to the subscribers. I know a lot of people would want to say it means watching the channels in their homes but I bet it's purposely worded ambiguously just to allow wiggle room.
> 
> At any rate "early...second quarter" certainly doesn't mean March, which was the purpose of my reply.
> 
> Mike


Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
- Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
- Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
- Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
- Marketing: We hear you. April.
- Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
- Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
- Engineering: No.
- Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
- Engineering: You guys are idiots.
- Marketing: So we should tell people December right?

A few months pass:
- DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
- Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???

A few more months:
- DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
- DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
- DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
- Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
- DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
- DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
- Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Well done BudShark!
Not much of a stretch, if any, either.
As a retired engineer I've seen this in action, as you also obviously have.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
> - Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
> - Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
> - Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
> - Marketing: We hear you. April.
> - Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
> - Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
> - Engineering: No.
> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???
> 
> A few more months:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
> - DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
> - DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
> - DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
> - DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


!rolling


----------



## Tubaman-Z

BudShark said:


> Something tells me there will (for the foreseeable future) be a gap - between shopping channels, foreign channels, religious and public service channels - there will be a gap.
> 
> <snip>


Some number of those pay D* to be carried. If they decide to pony up the dollars to convert to HD and have D* carry that HD....that would narrow the gap (and reduce the capacity for more widely watched channels).

My opinion: Within 10 years there will be no SD broadcasts left.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Tubaman-Z said:


> Some number of those pay D* to be carried. If they decide to pony up the dollars to convert to HD and have D* carry that HD....that would narrow the gap (and reduce the capacity for more widely watched channels).
> 
> My opinion: Within 10 years there will be no SD broadcasts left.


That would be a lot bandwidth freed up in 10 years at 101 from SD going dark. But by then we would want all channels in 3D too.


----------



## WoofusMaximus

BudShark said:


> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> <snipped here>
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???


That post is probably the best post I've read since I've been lurking on these forums.

Obligatory thread post: FWIW, given the fact that timelines in something as mundane as where I work are subject to flux, I'm not overly worried about the fact an extension for testing was needed.

WM


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
> - Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
> - Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
> - Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
> - Marketing: We hear you. April.
> - Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
> - Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
> - Engineering: No.
> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???
> 
> A few more months:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
> - DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
> - DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
> - DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
> - DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


!rolling

That pretty much sums up the state of affairs from all angles.

Nice work!


----------



## Lt Disher

MicroBeta said:


> Define begin operations. That could mean the new channels in testing before they go live to the subscribers.
> 
> Mike


Sorry to keep quoting the actual press release and confusing speculation with what has actually been released by DTV.

It says, "DIRECTV 12 ... will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 102.8 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year. "

They clearly distinguish testing from begin operations. Testing means testing. "Begin operations" has the sense of actually doing the work that it was intended to do, i.e, go live to the customers.


----------



## tcusta00

:beatdeadhorse:

Something must be wrong with it.


----------



## Mavrick

tcusta00 said:


> :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Something must be wrong with it.


----------



## bertjo44

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
> - Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
> - Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
> - Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
> - Marketing: We hear you. April.
> - Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
> - Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
> - Engineering: No.
> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???
> 
> A few more months:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
> - DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
> - DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
> - DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
> - DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


I'm at work and started laughing out loud after I read this.:icon_lol:


----------



## DaveC27

Has permission to drift actually have been granted, I see the DTV put in a request on march-31st but couldn't find any evidence that the FCC had granted it. Maybe DTV are waiting for the approval?


----------



## Rikinky

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
> - Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
> - Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
> - Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
> - Marketing: We hear you. April.
> - Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
> - Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
> - Engineering: No.
> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???
> 
> A few more months:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
> - DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
> - DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
> - DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
> - DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


This is awesome! :hurah:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lt Disher said:


> Sorry to keep quoting the actual press release and confusing speculation with what has actually been released by DTV.
> 
> It says, "DIRECTV 12 ... will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 102.8 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year. "
> 
> They clearly distinguish testing from begin operations. Testing means testing. "Begin operations" has the sense of actually doing the work that it was intended to do, i.e, go live to the customers.


IIRC, D11 did a couple of days testing after it got to location so don't be suprised if it happens again.

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

TUX knows the truth (new avatar).


----------



## jefbal99

DaveC27 said:


> Has permission to drift actually have been granted, I see the DTV put in a request on march-31st but couldn't find any evidence that the FCC had granted it. Maybe DTV are waiting for the approval?


Not that we have seen


----------



## bb37

DaveC27 said:


> Has permission to drift actually have been granted...


Yes, the mods said they'd give this thread some lee-way with regard to off-topic posts and thread drift.

Oh, wait, you're talking about D12 drifting.


----------



## sdirv

Lt Disher said:


> Sorry to keep quoting the actual press release and confusing speculation with what has actually been released by DTV.
> 
> It says, "DIRECTV 12 ... will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 102.8 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations early in the second quarter of next year. "
> 
> They clearly distinguish testing from begin operations. Testing means testing. "Begin operations" has the sense of actually doing the work that it was intended to do, i.e, go live to the customers.


And I believe the key word used was "EXPECTED"..........would be right up there with "plans", "desires", "soon"..........


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

Tubaman-Z said:


> My opinion: Within 10 years there will be no SD broadcasts left.


As far as D* is concerned it's MPEG2 vs. MPEG4, regardless of the content.

They just need for the eventual replacement of ALL IRDs with MPEG4 capable equipment to occur, increasing their capacity using existing bandwidth.

The questions becomes: Is it more cost effective long term to push replacement of MPEG2 only set tops, to attract/keep customers,...or wait until the boxes start to fail.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

I've stayed out of this since I will be out of the country by the time D12 goes into service. At least I'll have some new HD when I get back in August. After all, those DTV folk are suuuuppper geeeeenius.


----------



## brucegrr

I don't know anything about satellites so I accept as fact what the experts say.

I do know a bit about English and writing and I found the attempted English correction by the English minor quite humorous.  Made my day. 

Sometimes it is just better to mute our desire to correct others when they transgress our high standard of grammatical correctness. When we fail to do so we sometimes show our own lack of correctness.

Bruce


----------



## Beerstalker

I also found that humorous. It is quite (not quiet) sad how many people use mute instead of moot.


----------



## bobnielsen

sdirv said:


> And I believe the key word used was "EXPECTED"..........would be right up there with "plans", "desires", "soon"..........


All of which 38% of DBSTalk readers will interpret as meaning "promised".


----------



## Wisegoat

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> I've stayed out of this since I will be out of the country by the time D12 goes into service. At least I'll have some new HD when I get back in August. After all, those DTV folk are suuuuppper geeeeenius.


----------



## evan_s

James Long said:


> So, what's next? D12 will be in service sometime _before_ July per the press release (May is before July and would work for those waiting for channels). But at best DirecTV is adding 50-75 HD channels in an industry where more channels (for better or for worse) will be creating HD signals just to stay competitive with other channels.
> 
> Is there a next step? Another satellite that subscribers will wait with baited breath to be launched, tested and moved to the right location to be used?


At their last financial call they said they didn't currently have any sats being built or immediate plans to launch additional sats. On the other hand they just put down multi-million dollar deposits for BSS allocations for 99/103/111 which have deadlines for milestones like getting a design for the sat, contracting for construction and eventually launching the sat. If they don't meet those they loose the deposit and the allocation so I think it's safe to say that they will have plans to build at least those sats sometime soon.

Assuming DirecTV felt like they needed it they should be able to launch another sat like D12 destined for 99 as it is in the same situation 103 is now before the arrival of d12.

DirecTV also tried to get the KA slot at 97 after dish missed it's deadlines for launching a sat but last I saw the FCC had basically said they jumped the gun and the FCC hadn't actually taken the allocation from DISH yet even tho they missed the deadline and apparently have no plans to actually launch a sat for there.


----------



## Alan Gordon

James Long said:


> Is there a next step? Another satellite that subscribers will wait with baited breath to be launched, tested and moved to the right location to be used?


Absolutely!



BudShark said:


> At the point of 200+ HD channels, whats really left? What % of channels will DirecTV have that are NOT in HD? At what point do they begin shutting down a redundant or duplicate SD channel? When do consumers stop asking for a channel, and at what point do distribution companies say "We don't need Animal Planet III"?


Looking through (ALL CHANNELS) on my DirecTV Guide, I see 84 SD channels that either have HD channels available, HD channels on the way, or will probably make the leap to HD sometime in the next couple of years.

*NOTE:* My channel count does NOT include shopping channels, so add a couple more if you want to add QVC or HSN... which already have HD channels available.
*NOTE:* My channel count does NOT include sports channels in the 600s, or PPV in the 100s.
*NOTE:* I added a couple of religious channels like EWTN, TBN, and GMC as I know they have HD channels. I didn't add any of the others though as I don't know about them.
*NOTE:* I added a couple of the channels in the 400s, as I only know the HD status or plans of those two.
*NOTE:* My channel count does not count additional premiums added to the list. Only premium channels currently available in SD on DirecTV.
*NOTE:* My channel count only included channels with SD simulcasts on DirecTV.



BudShark said:


> I think we've about hit the end of the HD conversion process with D12. But thats just my un-edumacated opinion. :grin:


...and one I *STRONGLY* disagree with.

Loved your "Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009" post though! 

~Alan


----------



## GoPokes43

brucegrr said:


> I don't know anything about satellites so I accept as fact what the experts say.
> 
> I do know a bit about English and writing and I found the attempted English correction by the English minor quite humorous.  Made my day.
> 
> Sometimes it is just better to mute our desire to correct others when they transgress our high standard of grammatical correctness. When we fail to do so we sometimes show our own lack of correctness.
> 
> Bruce


99% sure that the English minor was being funny with the use of irregardless and mute since they are so often misused (though, seldomly together).


----------



## BudShark

Alan Gordon said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> Looking through (ALL CHANNELS) on my DirecTV Guide, I see 84 SD channels that either have HD channels available, HD channels on the way, or will probably make the leap to HD sometime in the next couple of years.
> 
> *NOTE:* My channel count does NOT include shopping channels, so add a couple more if you want to add QVC or HSN... which already have HD channels available.
> *NOTE:* My channel count does NOT include sports channels in the 600s, or PPV in the 100s.
> *NOTE:* I added a couple of religious channels like EWTN, TBN, and GMC as I know they have HD channels. I didn't add any of the others though as I don't know about them.
> *NOTE:* I added a couple of the channels in the 400s, as I only know the HD status or plans of those two.
> *NOTE:* My channel count does not count additional premiums added to the list. Only premium channels currently available in SD on DirecTV.
> *NOTE:* My channel count only included channels with SD simulcasts on DirecTV.
> 
> ...and one I *STRONGLY* disagree with.
> 
> Loved your "Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009" post though!
> 
> ~Alan


I stand corrected. If someone has time to count all the SD channels in their guide, clearly we need MORE HD channels than 200... my apologies.

!rolling :lol: :lol:


----------



## brucegrr

GoPokes43 said:


> 99% sure that the English minor was being funny with the use of irregardless and mute since they are so often misused (though, seldomly together).


I hope so.


----------



## BudShark

GoPokes43 said:


> 99% sure that the English minor was being funny with the use of irregardless and mute since they are so often misused (though, seldomly together).


98% of all references to percentages on web forums are made up.

Just sayin'! :grin:


----------



## Beerstalker

I didn't catch it as a joke either until you mentioned it, now that I read it again I can see it.


----------



## twaller

From a purely engineering point of view, it makes complete sense to keep D12 at 76 as long as possible to get some extensive testing done. This is a unique opportunity for example to test the 8PSK modulation scheme on conus transponders with a variety of power levels.


----------



## Groundhog45

Chicken Little needs to watch out for the bird flu going around.


----------



## Alan Gordon

BudShark said:


> I stand corrected. If someone has time to count all the SD channels in their guide, clearly we need MORE HD channels than 200... my apologies.
> 
> !rolling :lol: :lol:


LOL!!!

My point was that even after multiple Festivus celebrations, there will still be some established channels without HD simulcasts on DirecTV.

Once DirecTV catches up with their SD channels, I don't really see there being much of a need beyond that.

~Alan


----------



## nd bronco fan

A sign D12 is fine and getting close to moving?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=DTV&t=5d


----------



## BudShark

nd bronco fan said:


> A sign D12 is fine and getting close to moving?
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=DTV&t=5d


Nope.


----------



## bigyfoot30

twaller said:


> From a purely engineering point of view, it makes complete sense to keep D12 at 76 as long as possible to get some extensive testing done. This is a unique opportunity for example to test the 8PSK modulation scheme on conus transponders with a variety of power levels.


One of the smartest things I've read on here in quite awhile and more than likely the case :icon_hroc


----------



## BudShark

Folks:

We have STA extension approval...

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0

Retroactive to 4/7 and extending to 5/7


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Beerstalker said:


> I also found that humorous. It is quite (not quiet) sad how many people use mute instead of moot.


----------



## flapperdink

BudShark said:


> Folks:
> 
> We have STA extension approval...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0
> 
> Retroactive to 4/7 and extending to 5/7


that's strange, but good news. so now D* has until 5/7 to get her in place?

EDIT: just noticed that these approvals are for the earth stations only...no STA approval on the actual bird.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like we're going to be forecasting doom and gloom for another 2+ weeks or so. :eek2::eek2::eek2::lol:

TUX and Chicken Little - stay nearby where I can see you....


----------



## slimoli

BudShark said:


> Folks:
> 
> We have STA extension approval...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0
> 
> Retroactive to 4/7 and extending to 5/7


Thanks. Finally a helpful post !


----------



## BudShark

flapperdink said:


> that's strange, but good news. so now D* has until 5/7 to get her in place?


Which if they take that long will be 2 days after their estimate from December. Absolutely positively disgusting. Heads need to roll for these unprecedented delays! :lol:


----------



## steveholtam

I got these guys looking for D12, and guess what -


----------



## bigyfoot30

Which would mean giving 20 days to move (drift) they would have to start by Friday? (or today,,, lol)


----------



## Alan Gordon

Greg Alsobrook said:


>


The above is the reason why I commonly refer to a "moot point" as a "moo point" ladies and gentleman! 

~Alan


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> Thanks. Finally a helpful post !


Are you still worried? :lol:


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . . the sky is still falling.


Thanks, just what I wanted to know <ManiacalLaughter>! :lol:


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> Are you still worried? :lol:


"Worried" ? Why ? It's just a stupid satellite! I have other things in life to be worried about.


----------



## smiddy

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009
> - Engineering: We are launching the satellite in Dec. We have some testing to do, some validation of a new technology, and then some movement. We are going to request a window of testing and movement that will take us to May, 2010. It would be safe to say "Second Half 2010".
> - Marketing: We're going to have 200+ HD channels????
> - Engineering: Yes, in the 2nd half of 2010.
> - Marketing: We hear you. April.
> - Engineering: No. 2nd Half.
> - Marketing: You're launching in December? So they'll be up by January 2010?
> - Engineering: No.
> - Marketing: Tom, draft the press releases. Sally, contact the ad agency. I'll get working on the Up-sell training.
> - Engineering: You guys are idiots.
> - Marketing: So we should tell people December right?
> 
> A few months pass:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its November. Where's my 250+ HD channels? What is wrong with DirecTV? The satellite is destroyed.
> - Engineer reading DBSTalk: WTH? Did all of DBSTalk go to marketing school???
> 
> A few more months:
> - DBSTalk: WTH? Its April. Where's my HD?
> - DBSTalk person with knowldge: The sat is being tested, May is a safe bet.
> - DBSTalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: WTH? Send a note telling them its ok.
> - DBSTalk Mod: Its all good, sat is fine.
> - DBStalk: So you're saying the Sat is broke?
> - Engineer reading DBStalk: I'm transferring to be a CSR. At least people listen to them and take what they say as fact.


!rolling You sir, just made my day!


----------



## Big Dawg 23

Alan Gordon said:


> The above is the reason why I commonly refer to a "moot point" as a "moo point" ladies and gentleman!
> 
> ~Alan


Thanks for the laugh. One of my favorite shows. Just Remember it is a "Cows Opinion"

Hopefully the drift starts soon. I can't wait for more HD.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Folks:
> 
> We have STA extension approval...
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0
> 
> Retroactive to 4/7 and extending to 5/7


Good pickup. I checked the FCC site last night but not today.


----------



## smiddy

Greg Alsobrook said:


>


<Collecting myself off of the floor> Whoa, I don't recall that episode, but that is so classic. I'm going to use that line myself, "It's moo" "It's like a cow's opinion, it doesn't matter, it's moo!" CLASSIC!


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Beerstalker said:


> I also found that humorous. It is quite (not quiet) sad how many people use mute instead of moot.


If we become too critical of the grammer used in these forums, people will become less inclined to post. Voices will be *muted*, and the question of whether to visit this site will be *mooted* by the absence of any new posts.


----------



## matt

"12. Description. DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests a 30 day extension of its Special Temporary Authority to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations for the DIRECTV 12 satellite during relocation after in-orbit testing. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force. "

During relocation after IOT? So it is about to start moving then?


----------



## Piratefan98

whatliesbeyond said:


> If we become too critical of the grammer used in these forums, people will become less inclined to post. Voices will be *muted*, and the question of whether to visit this site will be *mooted* by the absence of any new posts.


I could care less.

Jeff


----------



## ATARI

I couldn't care less


----------



## matt

ATARI said:


> I couldn't care less


He might actually care a little bit


----------



## raoul5788

Piratefan98 said:


> I could care less.
> 
> Jeff


Now THAT'S funny!:hurah: I wonder how many others will get it?


----------



## BudShark

matt1124 said:


> "12. Description. DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests a 30 day extension of its Special Temporary Authority to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations for the DIRECTV 12 satellite during relocation after in-orbit testing. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force. "
> 
> During relocation after IOT? So it is about to start moving then?


Ugh... rewriting... all kinds of stuff wrong...

24 hour notice to Military (not 2)
Boeing flight director available 24/7

Anyhow... point is... the bird, she shall be moving...


----------



## flapperdink

matt1124 said:


> "12. Description. DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests a 30 day extension of its Special Temporary Authority to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations for the DIRECTV 12 satellite during relocation after in-orbit testing. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force. "
> 
> During relocation after IOT? So it is about to start moving then?


that is correct, but they still haven't approved the STA on the actual satellite...recall from Sixto's first page post that there are three STAs filed...two for the earth stations (associated with this approval) and one for the actual bird (still not approved).


----------



## DodgerKing

A little birdie told me that the drift should start anytime now.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

They want to test it even more????


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

DodgerKing said:


> A little birdie told me that the drift should start anytime now.


Do they have permission to drift yet? I thought these grants were for more testing...

Wheres Sixto today, is he still on vacation?


----------



## JeffBowser

Proper English is foundational and is a sign of respect and intelligence. 



whatliesbeyond said:


> If we become too critical of the grammer used in these forums, people will become less inclined to post. Voices will be *muted*, and the question of whether to visit this site will be *mooted* by the absence of any new posts.


----------



## BudShark

flapperdink said:


> that's strange, but good news. so now D* has until 5/7 to get her in place?
> 
> EDIT: just noticed that these approvals are for the earth stations only...no STA approval on the actual bird.





flapperdink said:


> that is correct, but they still haven't approved the STA on the actual satellite...recall from Sixto's first page post that there are three STAs filed...two for the earth stations (associated with this approval) and one for the actual bird (still not approved).


Oh no... EEK! Maybe they didn't approve the one for the bird because the bird isn't there anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

!rolling


----------



## LameLefty

Coca Cola Kid said:


> They want to test it even more????


That's not what the last little bit of the thread has been discussing. The start of the drift appears imminent.


----------



## BudShark

DodgerKing said:


> A little birdie told me that the drift should start anytime now.





Coca Cola Kid said:


> They want to test it even more????


Sigh:



> Authority to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations for the DIRECTV 12 satellite during relocation


key words... telemetry, tracking, control during relocation... This is the STA for the movement.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

LameLefty said:


> That's not what the last little bit of the thread has been discussing. The start of the drift appears imminent.


So the drift was approved? I don't see that in the grants. It says approved for more testing.


----------



## cforrest

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Do they have permission to drift yet? I thought these grants were for more testing...


The two (2) approvals are for the ground stations (2 of them) to track and control D12 as it moves from 76 to 103. Now we await the actual approval of the STA for D12 to move to 103, that should happen today probably. So D12 will begin moving to 103 very soon, if not already starting to prepare for the move. Grounds stations approved, just waiting on the satellite move extension to be approved.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

cforrest said:


> The two (2) approvals are for the ground stations (2 of them) to track and control D12 as it moves from 76 to 103. Now we await the actual approval of the STA for D12 to move to 103, that should happen today probably. So D12 will begin moving to 103 very soon, if not already starting to prepare for the move. Grounds stations approved, just waiting on the satellite move extension to be approved.


Okay that's what I figured.


----------



## flapperdink

BudShark said:


> Oh no... EEK! Maybe they didn't approve the one for the bird because the bird isn't there anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


that would help solve all of the concerns :grin:


----------



## BudShark

cforrest said:


> The two (2) approvals are for the ground stations (2 of them) to track and control D12 as it moves from 76 to 103. Now we await the actual approval of the STA for D12 to move to 103, that should happen today probably. So D12 will begin moving to 103 very soon, if not already starting to prepare for the move. Grounds stations approved, just waiting on the satellite move extension to be approved.


Correct - nothing more than timing or whats been published to the website. They wouldn't approve these and not approve the bird.

D12 will be moving SHORTLY/SOON/IMMINENTLY/NOT IN JUNE.


----------



## nd bronco fan

the wednesday theory is coming to light


----------



## oldfantom

brucegrr said:


> I don't know anything about satellites so I accept as fact what the experts say.
> 
> I do know a bit about English and writing and I found the attempted English correction by the English minor quite humorous.  Made my day.
> 
> Sometimes it is just better to mute our desire to correct others when they transgress our high standard of grammatical correctness. When we fail to do so we sometimes show our own lack of correctness.
> 
> Bruce


Sometimes, finer points are missed. I actually made reference to two other items that are often misused in my first paragraph. So we are all explicitly aware, I am fully aware that there is no such word as irregardless and that a mute point would be a silent. In my second paragraph, I said that baited breath does not fall in the same category as the other two (irregardless and mute) as it has become generally accepted. I guess I ain't making myself clear. I will go ahead and use a smiley face for that last one. Just in case.



In any event, take the correction in the good nature it was intended. I personally can't spell to save my life. I blame the little red squiggly underline for that problem.

On another note I feel it is time to waffle. D12 is doomed. Doooooooooooomed!:crying:


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

oldfantom said:


> Doooooooooooomed!:crying:


Hey! What's that big shadow on my house?:eek2::lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

oldfantom said:


> <snip>
> On another note I feel it is time to waffle. D12 is doomed. Doooooooooooomed!:crying:


Nothings doomed. No Dooming. Dooming's not allowed. We will have no Dooming here. 

It's all good. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Coca Cola Kid said:


> They want to test it even more????


That confirmation is actually very good news.

There are 2 D12 testing projects at work here - the base D12 sat itself, and a new experimental package.

To date - there is *no evidence *that either testing process or D12 itself is having *any* problem. The few extra days of testing should not be a major surprise for the new experimental technology to require additional testing.

Let's all take a few deep breaths, regain our senses, and not get all panicky when there is not a stitch of reason to be concerned.


----------



## brucegrr

oldfantom said:


> I will go ahead and use a smiley face for that last one. Just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> In any event, take the correction in the good nature it was intended. I personally can't spell to save my life. I blame the little red squiggly underline for that problem.
> 
> On another note I feel it is time to waffle. D12 is doomed. Doooooooooooomed!:crying:


Yes, the smiley face would have helped the thickheaded among us. 

I am a pretty good speller...I am a terrible typist. I knew I should have taken that typing class 37 years ago.

And while we are talking about grammar.......it looks like good news on the satellite movement.

I started reading this thread with no satellite knowledge....I still don't know much BUT I have been learned a bit by those who DO know a bit about satellites. 

Bruce


----------



## Mike Bertelson

There has been some discussion as to who currently own the satellite. So, here's my question. Who does own the dang satellite?

If it's Boeing they why aren't they the ones making requests to the FCC? It's always DirecTV who is making the request. The FCC then either grants or denies _authority_ to DirecTV. If DirecTV is granted authority to do something then DirecTV must be cognizant over the satellite. Right? If not then how can the FCC grant them authority to do anything?

Mike


----------



## netraa

MicroBeta said:


> Nothings doomed. No Dooming. Dooming's not allowed. We will have no Dooming here.
> 
> It's all good. :grin:
> 
> Mike


not just doomed...... doomed^3


----------



## Tom_S

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are 2 D12 testing projects at work here - the base D12 sat itself, and a new experimental package.


What experimental package. If you are referring to BSS it is not experimental, it is destined for full production usage. The experimental package was on D11. Unless there is a third part of the D12 sat I am forgetting about?


----------



## gslater

Let's hope that since they have granted authority for the earth stations, the Sat authority won't be far behind.


----------



## Doug Brott

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So the drift was approved? I don't see that in the grants. It says approved for more testing.


Maybe it's time to put the word parsers away and pull out the telescopes ..


----------



## wmb

oldfantom said:


> Sometimes, finer points are missed. I actually made reference to two other items that are often misused in my first paragraph. So we are all explicitly aware, I am fully aware that there is no such word as irregardless and that a mute point would be a silent. In my second paragraph, I said that baited breath does not fall in the same category as the other two (irregardless and mute) as it has become generally accepted. I guess I ain't making myself clear. I will go ahead and use a smiley face for that last one. Just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> In any event, take the correction in the good nature it was intended. I personally can't spell to save my life. I blame the little red squiggly underline for that problem.
> 
> On another note I feel it is time to waffle. D12 is doomed. Doooooooooooomed!:crying:


This is VERY UNIQUE!

Actually, I've had a few copies of Strunk and White walk away from my desk over the years. This coming from an engineer. Scary.


----------



## flapperdink

MicroBeta said:


> There has been some discussion as to who currently own the satellite. So, here's my question. Who does own the dang satellite?
> 
> If it's Boeing they why aren't they the ones making requests to the FCC? It's always DirecTV who is making the request. The FCC then either grants or denies _authority_ to DirecTV. If DirecTV is granted authority to do something then DirecTV must be cognizant over the satellite. Right? If not then how can the FCC grant them authority to do anything?
> 
> Mike


probably because DirecTV owns the licenses...i sure hope DirecTV is cognizant over the satellite...as licensees they are responsible for regulatory compliance.

same goes for the industry i'm in...we provide designs to a plant who is the operating licensee as far as the regulatory body is concerned. we provide input to the end-user to help in getting regulatory approval, but ultimately the license is theirs and not ours.

addendum: Boeing probably "owns" the satellite as far as the contract between D* and Boeing is concerned, because Boeing has yet to prove operational satisfaction to D*. i assume after satisfactory IOT at 103 is done, then Boeing would turn over the keys to D* and D* assumes ownership.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

I think the anticipation in this thread is so thick you could cut it... pretty exciting


----------



## Todd H

Finally! Getting closer to new HD. 

BTW, Travel Channel HD please. :lol:


----------



## JeffBowser

I've been thinking for awhile that it was something else altogether that has been getting so thick up here 



brett_the_bomb said:


> I think the anticipation in this thread is so thick you could cut it... pretty exciting


----------



## Mike Bertelson

flapperdink said:


> probably because DirecTV owns the licenses...i sure hope DirecTV is cognizant over the satellite...as licensees they are responsible for regulatory compliance.
> 
> same goes for the industry i'm in...we provide designs to a plant who is the operating licensee as far as the regulatory body is concerned. we provide input to the end-user to help in getting regulatory approval, but ultimately the license is theirs and not ours.
> 
> addendum: Boeing probably "owns" the satellite as far as the contract between D* and Boeing is concerned, because Boeing has yet to prove operational satisfaction to D*. i assume after satisfactory IOT at 103 is done, then Boeing would turn over the keys to D* and D* assumes ownership.


In my industry, we design and build it but the customer (The US Gov't) doesn't take ownership until it passes testing and inspections. We have financial and regulatory responsibility, and all contact/documentation come from and go to my company until then.

Although, it does make sense that since DirecTV is the licensee, they would deal with the licensing authority.

I do wonder where Boeings financial responsibility begins and ends.

Mike


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> There has been some discussion as to who currently own the satellite. So, here's my question. Who does own the dang satellite?
> 
> If it's Boeing they why aren't they the ones making requests to the FCC? It's always DirecTV who is making the request. The FCC then either grants or denies _authority_ to DirecTV. If DirecTV is granted authority to do something then DirecTV must be cognizant over the satellite. Right? If not then how can the FCC grant them authority to do anything?
> 
> Mike


Isn't a mix of 'control' and 'owning' in the question ?


----------



## flapperdink

MicroBeta said:


> In my industry, we design and build it but the customer (The US Gov't) doesn't take ownership until it passes testing and inspections. We're have financial and regulatory responsibility, and all contact/documentation come from and go to my company until then.
> 
> Although, it does make sense that since DirecTV is the licensee, they would deal with the licensing authority.
> 
> I do wonder where Boeings financial responsibility begins and ends.
> 
> Mike


i see. i guess they are different for a given industry. typically the contract between Boeing and D* will detail those T&Cs. i bet that contract is one hell of a novel


----------



## P Smith

Doug Brott said:


> Maybe it's time to put the word parsers away and pull out the telescopes ..


I wouldn't rush with telescopes without solid TLE's numbers - it's not a rabbit to begin jumping out of a hole .


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't rush with telescopes without solid TLE's numbers - it's not a rabbit to begin jumping out of a hole .


It was a tiny joke .. Not sure telescopes should ever come in to play here.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> What experimental package. If you are referring to *BSS it is not experimental*, it is destined for full production usage. The experimental package was on D11. Unless there is a third part of the D12 sat I am forgetting about?


It *is* experimental until its functional and in production.


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> In my industry, we design and build it but the customer (The US Gov't) doesn't take ownership until it passes testing and inspections. We're have financial and regulatory responsibility, and all contact/documentation come from and go to my company until then.
> 
> Although, it does make sense that since DirecTV is the licensee, they would deal with the licensing authority.
> 
> _I do wonder where Boeings financial responsibility begins and ends.
> _
> Mike


I'm pretty sure it starting from initial contact to design/build and lasts to the moment of transferring control of a sat to a customer (DTV or dish, etc) - there will be some conditions in case some if say solar panel/batteries/transponders/etc doesn't executed 100% at final test stage - that would affect financial aspects of the contract.


----------



## P Smith

Doug Brott said:


> It was a tiny joke .. Not sure telescopes should ever come in to play here.


I know, just pulling it farther ...


----------



## syphix

Doug Brott said:


> It was a tiny joke .. Not sure telescopes should ever come in to play here.


I hope not!! :eek2:


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It *is* experimental until its functional and in production.


For the kind of equipment D12 it is *not* experimental.


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> For the kind of equipment D12 it is *not* experimental.


Shuttle flight anyone?


----------



## P Smith

Doug Brott said:


> Shuttle flight anyone?


It's too far for Shuttle. Command/Lunar Module would be better suit the mission


----------



## brett_the_bomb

JeffBowser said:


> I've been thinking for awhile that it was something else altogether that has been getting so thick up here


dont know that i can aruge that one in the least.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> It's too far for Shuttle. Command/Lunar Module would be better suit the mission


There aren't a lot of those available 

During the early stages of Shuttle development, the ability to reach GSO altitude was actually considered. Hughes was asked by NASA to propose what tests could be run on Syncom 1 if could be recovered. Syncom 1 was unsuccessfully launched in early 1963 and later sighted by telescope (and it was MUCH smaller than D12).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> For the kind of equipment D12 it is *not* experimental.


Perhaps to some...but until DirecTV can actual deploy it in production - to them it is new / experimental. If that was not the case - there would be little to test.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

flapperdink said:


> i see. i guess they are different for a given industry. typically the contract between Boeing and D* will detail those T&Cs. i bet that contract is one hell of a novel


...and continued in the next novel. 

Mike


----------



## Satelliteracer

P Smith said:


> It's too far for Shuttle. Command/Lunar Module would be better suit the mission


I think that was killed recently, especially per Neil Armstrong's comments yesterday.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE again today . . . 



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-14 11:54:41
Orbit # at Epoch	114
Inclination		0.061
RA of A. Node		31.413
[B]Eccentricity		0.0002039[/B]
Argument of Perigee	67.860
Revs per day		1.00274486
[B]Period			23h 56m 03s (1436.5 min)[/B]
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	35 777 x 35 794 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		205.918
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	152 / 0 day(s)


----------



## LameLefty

Satelliteracer said:


> I think that was killed recently, especially per Neil Armstrong's comments yesterday.


Orion still couldn't reach beyond LEO without Ares V (and that's assuming launch on Ares I a/k/a "The Shaft" didn't kill the crew. :nono: ).


----------



## oldfantom

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure it starting from initial contact to design/build and lasts to the moment of transferring control of a sat to a customer (DTV or dish, etc) - there will be some conditions in case some if say solar panel/batteries/transponders/etc doesn't executed 100% at final test stage - that would affect financial aspects of the contract.


In the past, Boeing has put out a press release when they turned over the satellite. So I would think Boeing still has the hardware. At least they have not received final payment. However, the content coming from the satellite belongs to D* so they file. Also, D* is the interested party as far as the FCC is concerned. There is a legal term I am looking for there, not sure it is interested party though.

This was discussed a while back in part: My thinking is that the FCC has no "real" authority over the space, just the signal being beamed into the US from space. What could or would they do if they moved without approval? They could deny broadcast rights, which would be bad. I suppose they could fine them for sending the control signals to move. But could they do anything about the actual move? Just a random thought.

Since my last waffle bothered at least one member. I am going to go the unprecedented step of the rare daily double waffle. Everything with D12 smells like the roses blooming by my front door.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

oldfantom said:


> Since my last waffle bothered at least one member. I am going to go the unprecedented step of the rare daily double waffle. *Everything with D12 smells like the roses blooming by my front door*.


That's so much better than the fertilizer a few others have smelled.


----------



## texasmoose

oldfantom what is that avatar? a Gnome?


----------



## slimoli

Where is Sixto ?


----------



## Hoosier205

slimoli said:


> Where is Sixto ?


He's probably busy.


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> Where is Sixto ?


No offense to my buddy there, but don't you think any of the rest of us can access and read the TLEs or search the FCC databases?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> Where is Sixto ?


Living his life somewhere. If there's nothing to be told what difference does it make where he is?

Mike


----------



## tcusta00

slimoli said:


> Where is Sixto ?


I thought YOU were watching him? Oh for heaven's sakes how many times are we going to lose that guy?

Someone call the sheriff, please. I'll drive around the neighborhood. Can someone please make up some posters, too, while I'm out???


----------



## LameLefty

tcusta00 said:


> I thought YOU were watching him? Oh for heaven's sakes how many times are we going to lose that guy?
> 
> Someone call the sheriff, please. I'll drive around the neighborhood. Can someone please make up some posters, too, while I'm out???


Milk cartons. This crisis demands milk cartons.

And maybe an Amber Alert.


----------



## rrrick8

*Count from launch to expected operational use...*


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> No offense to my buddy there, but don't you think any of the rest of us can access and read the TLEs or search the FCC databases?


Maybe he doesn't trust a rocket scientist. :lol:


----------



## bigyfoot30

LameLefty said:


> Milk cartons. This crisis demands milk cartons.
> 
> And maybe an Amber Alert.


How about we attach a note to D12,, I'm sure he is watching it closely

SIXTO,,, PHONE HOME :icon_lame


----------



## T-Hefner

wowzers, this is good news, we are soooo close now....the drift should be sometime this week then


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Is it approved yet?


----------



## slimoli

LameLefty said:


> No offense to my buddy there, but don't you think any of the rest of us can access and read the TLEs or search the FCC databases?


Who told you that I want Sixto to read a TLE ? I just thought that would be nice to have one of the guys who contributed so much to this thread to join us now when things seem to be ready for the drift. I really don't know why you posted this non-sense.


----------



## Araxen

Didn't D11 or maybe the one before that just magically appear at it's location one day? I'm not putting too much faith in location data.


----------



## slimoli

MicroBeta said:


> Living his life somewhere. If there's nothing to be told what difference does it make where he is?
> 
> Mike


and why are you concerned about it ? Who I ask for is not your business.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> Who told you that I want Sixto to read a TLE ? I just thought that would be* nice to have one of the guys who contributed so much to this thread to join us now when things seem to be ready for the drift.* I really don't know why you posted this non-sense.


Perhaps you need to stay more in touch before calling someone else's post "nonsense".

Sixto is absent based on reasons which Moderator Stuart Sweet agreed to keep in confidence between them - nothing to do with DBSTalk. That was posted over a week ago. LameLefty was kind enough to take his own time to continue updating the information he could in Sixto's absense.

Let's see some human dignity and respect in this thread, instead of this ongoing insult-fest.


----------



## bb37

MicroBeta said:


> In my industry, we design and build it but the customer (The US Gov't) doesn't take ownership until it passes testing and inspections.


Any comparison between the US Government and a publicly-traded, profit-making corporation is futile.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Let's keep everything friendly and on the up and up... No insults or potshots at anyone please. Also, lets leave the politics out as well.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Araxen said:


> Didn't D11 or maybe the one before that just magically appear at it's location one day? I'm not putting too much faith in location data.


IIRC, it was D10...I think. :grin:

There was a gap in the TLEs and then it was there. 

Mike


----------



## slimoli

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps you need to stay more in touch before calling someone else's post "nonsense".
> 
> Sixto is absent based on reasons which Moderator Stuart Sweet agreed to keep in confidence between them - nothing to do with DBSTalk. That was posted over a week ago. LameLefty was kind enough to take his own time to continue updating the information he could in Sixto's absense.
> 
> Let's see some human dignity and respect in this thread, instead of this ongoing insult-fest.


I can't believe how "Where is Sixto" can be viewed as an offense to anybody. He was here yesterday and I had no idea about anything you just said. I didn't start anything that can be considered an insult and find very strange the reaction from your side and your friends.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> and why are you concerned about it ? Who I ask for is not your business.


Jeeze...sorry, I figured that if you posted something in the open then it's pretty much everyone's business. I would suggest that if you wanted to discuss something without everyone involved you might try PM...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> Who told you that I want Sixto to read a TLE ? I just thought that would be nice to have one of the guys who contributed so much to this thread to join us now when things seem to be ready for the drift. *I really don't know why you posted this non-sense*.





slimoli said:


> I can't believe how "Where is Sixto" can be viewed as an offense to anybody. He was here yesterday and I had no idea about anything you just said. *I didn't start anything that can be considered an insult and find very strange the reaction *from your side and your friends.


Fact is one poster has been attempting to keep updated information posted here in Sixto's absense, and your response to that effort was to call it *"nonsense"*.

If you do not understand why your original comment was considered insulting, then there's not much more that can be said. The fact that several others requested that you tempor your remarks would seem to indicate it was. Folks are just asking to keep things more civil. Thank you.


----------



## slimoli

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Fact is one poster has been attempting to keep updated information posted here in Sixto's absense, and your response to that effort was to call it *"nonsense"*.
> 
> If you do not understand why your original comment was considered insulting, then there's not much more that can be said. The fact that several others requested that you tempor your remarks would seem to indicate it was.


You imply that I wanted Sixto to update or explain something, which I already said was not the case. I wanted Sixto to join us in a moment where everybody was happy and excited with a possible start of the drift. I had no other intention whatsoever.

Since you and others really think I insulted somebody, I apologize. Again, that was not my intention.


----------



## tcusta00

Deep breaths everyone. My neighborhood canvassing efforts have been fruitful. I'm certain he'll turn up again soon. Stuart Sweet used his nasty Photoshop skillz to make some wicked awesome posters with a picture of D12 on it; I'm certain someone will recognize Sixto soon and bring him home.


----------



## Rikinky

:new_popco !pepsi!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> Since you and others really think I insulted somebody, I apologize. Again, that was not my intention.


We welcome you having an interest in the latest on D12. Best wishes.


----------



## Doug Brott

Guys .. I know 'Sixto' is in the thread title, but this thread is about D12 .. not about Sixto. Let's keep it that way.

For the record, Sixto may not be available 24/7 .. Lefty can help out with this and the many other fine folks here can do the same thing with helping out with what things mean .. As for that watched pot? Still not boiling, but you might not wanna touch it now.


----------



## wmb

oldfantom said:


> Since my last waffle bothered at least one member. I am going to go the unprecedented step of the rare daily double waffle. Everything with D12 smells like the roses blooming by my front door.


Not bothered... just wanted to chime in very uniquely.


----------



## thelucky1

This FCC approval was expected to be given once Directv told the FCC that they were ready to start moving D12 - correct?


----------



## syphix

thelucky1 said:


> This FCC approval was expected to be given once Directv told the FCC that they were ready to start moving D12 - correct?


That is the common presumption, yes.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Rikinky said:


> :new_popco !pepsi!


Don't you have a glass of Coca-Cola instead of that stuff? :nono2:


----------



## James Long

BudShark said:


> At the point of 200+ HD channels, whats really left? What % of channels will DirecTV have that are NOT in HD?


The last time I counted (well over a year ago) DirecTV had 193 SD video channels including 26 RSNs but not including PPVs and other specialty channels.

Everything in HD (the way the market is going) will require more than 200 HD channel capacity.



> At what point do they begin shutting down a redundant or duplicate SD channel? When do consumers stop asking for a channel, and at what point do distribution companies say "We don't need Animal Planet III"?


You can't shut down SD channels until you upgrade or get rid of customers with old non-MPEG4 equipment. DISH is facing the same challenge except they made the choice to introduce the Eastern Arc systems that are all MPEG4. They still have the SD versions of HDs available (except local stations) but in MPEG4 they take up very little bandwidth. Western Arc has the same problem as DirecTV ... supporting old while trying to introduce the new in limited bandwidth. (All bandwidth is limited.)

I'd like to see DISH, DirecTV and cable decide what to carry based on other factors than just running out of room for anything else. Capacity is important for the future.


----------



## georule

BudShark said:


> Meeting in El Segundo Mid-2009


This was a hoot.  But any fair reading of the history back on page 1 of this thread shows that meeting would have had to be later in the year. That's why the PR re ESPNU by March 31st, 2010 was reasonable at the time; but later events pushed their dates. The expected launch date moved back, in increments, several times over the Summer/Fall of 2009. And then it actually moved forward again (by a small amount anyway) to Dec 29th.


----------



## machavez00

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Wikipedia is unreliable. :lol:


Hmm, even it's external link references?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirecTV-12#External_links

International Launch Services Official Site - DirecTV-12 Mission Control
DBSTalk.com - SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info
 *[edit] *


----------



## Hdhead

At this point we could really use someone that can read through the TLE leafs. Sixto may be our last best hope.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Since D12 started life contractually as a ground spare, I'm less certain.

What I saw from the D10 and D11 contracts (that were heavily redacted) is that DIRECTV took ownership the moment an intentional launch was attempted. Until that moment, Boeing held ownership and all responsibility for insurance and delivery. (An unintentional launch, otherwise known as an explosion, would likely mean Boeing was out a whole lotta change.)

Once the satellite reached a certain stage, likely when the launching service released control, DIRECTV still owned and Boeing resumed control. 

And, Boeing still has the unit under warranty for several (many?) years. That starts getting into another of the redacted parts... 

So I'm presuming D12 is under similar operational rules. DIRECTV now owns complete title and Boeing will control until the final Boeing tests are done after the final drift to home plate.

And I'm pretty sure that DIRECTV as current owner and orbital license holder is responsible for the FCC filings. (Tho I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing had several filings to certify the satellites in the first place...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

machavez00 said:


> Hmm, even it's external link references?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirecTV-12#External_links
> 
> 
> International Launch Services Official Site - DirecTV-12 Mission Control
> DBSTalk.com - SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info
> *[edit] *


On Wiki, this site is considered a "self published source" since its a forum that anyone can post on. External links usually mean "for additional info" as opposed to references likes magazines and newspaper articles which are considered reliable and trustworthy.


----------



## dcowboy7

BudShark said:


> I think you've hit a market saturation point again.
> 
> At the point of 200+ HD channels, whats really left? What % of channels will DirecTV have that are NOT in HD?


Directv now has 132 HD channels (yes counting ppv).

Per this list there are 89 HD channels that should all go active by 2011 that directv is still missing.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2405340#post2405340

If directv was able to add all those 89 channels (which they cant) that would give them a total of 221 HD channels.

So even if directv actually did 200 channels we would still be missing 21 HD channels & of course directv will probably add more HD ppv so we will definately be more than 21 short even when D12 is maxed out.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dcowboy7 said:


> Directv now has 132 HD channels (yes counting ppv).
> 
> Per this list there are 89 HD channels that should all go active by 2011 that directv is still missing.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2405340#post2405340
> 
> If directv was able to add all those 89 channels (which they cant) that would give them a total of 221 HD channels.
> 
> So even if directv actually did 200 channels we would still be missing 21 HD channels & of course directv will probably add more HD ppv so we will definately be more than 21 short even when D12 is maxed out.


Game only channels like FSN subfeeds should be counted as half channels.


----------



## TBlazer07

Tom Robertson said:


> And, Boeing still has the unit under warranty for several (many?) years. That starts getting into another of the redacted parts... ...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Sure hope they took the protection plan. For $5.95/month it's a bargain except they just might replace it with a reconditioned D-09 if it dies.


----------



## James Long

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Game only channels like FSN subfeeds should be counted as half channels.


We're looking for a peak usage in a perfect world where everything is in HD. Basically look at the peak SD channel usage, count them, and make sure you can do that many channels in HD.


----------



## steelerfanmike

MicroBeta said:


> True. The Azimuth listed on the n2oy website is the direction to look from a given location. Steelerfanmike must live in the north east somewhere.
> 
> Mike


thanks for explaining guys.. And yes I live in the Northeast (Jersey)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tom Robertson said:


> Since D12 started life contractually as a ground spare, I'm less certain.
> 
> What I saw from the D10 and D11 contracts (that were heavily redacted) is that DIRECTV took ownership the moment an intentional launch was attempted. Until that moment, Boeing held ownership and all responsibility for insurance and delivery. (An unintentional launch, otherwise known as an explosion, would likely mean Boeing was out a whole lotta change.)
> 
> Once the satellite reached a certain stage, likely when the launching service released control, DIRECTV still owned and Boeing resumed control.
> 
> And, Boeing still has the unit under warranty for several (many?) years. That starts getting into another of the redacted parts...
> 
> So I'm presuming D12 is under similar operational rules. DIRECTV now owns complete title and Boeing will control until the final Boeing tests are done after the final drift to home plate.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that DIRECTV as current owner and orbital license holder is responsible for the FCC filings. (Tho I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing had several filings to certify the satellites in the first place...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Interesting info Tom, Thanks. 

Mike


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tcusta00 said:


> I thought YOU were watching him? Oh for heaven's sakes how many times are we going to lose that guy?
> 
> Someone call the sheriff, please. I'll drive around the neighborhood. Can someone please make up some posters, too, while I'm out???


:lol:

So why are there two of these, one here and one here? Ones 80 the other is 81.


----------



## Brent04

TheRatPatrol said:


> :lol:
> 
> So why are there two of these, one here and one here? Ones 80 the other is 81.


Since each list two different call sign's I assume they will possibly be using two earth stations to control and track the satellite during the drift. They probably need approval from the FCC for each earth station that will be communicating with the satellite during the drift.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Brent04 said:


> Since each list two different call sign's I assume they will possibly be using two earth stations to control and track the satellite during the drift.


OH DOH! One is for _each_ earth station! Thanks


----------



## Davenlr

TheRatPatrol said:


> :lol:
> 
> So why are there two of these, one here and one here? Ones 80 the other is 81.


One is for the New Hampshire tracking station, the other is for Castle Rock, Co.


----------



## smiddy

Yep, so the sky is still falling... !rolling


----------



## Gary Toma

You folks seem to give a lot of credibility to Lame Lefty....

Well, I went by and got a picture of his high-tech new easy-to-align dish installation:


----------



## P Smith

Is that his setup to monitoring D12 signals while it sit at 76W ?


----------



## am7crew

D12 going live June 2010...... maybe


----------



## smiddy

Ok, here it is Thursday morning...no news is, GOOD news! Go DirecTV - 12, fly big D, fly!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smiddy said:


> Ok, here it is Thursday morning...no news is, GOOD news! Go DirecTV - 12, fly big D, fly!


We'll have to go _hunting_ for new TLEs today. 

Mike


----------



## tcusta00

am7crew said:


> D12 going live June 2010...... maybe


----------



## dmurphy

TBlazer07 said:


> Sure hope they took the protection plan. For $5.95/month it's a bargain except they just might replace it with a reconditioned D-09 if it dies.


Just so long as it's not a DirecTV-6 unit... I hear those have overheating problems


----------



## Fog627

I hope DirecTV paid their taxes or they might not get the OK to drift...


----------



## TerryB

smiddy said:


> Ok, here it is Thursday morning...no news is, GOOD news! Go DirecTV - 12, fly big D, fly!


Web searches are just amazing. Your quote rang a bell with me but I couldn't remember the film. First rattle out of the box "Hunt for Red October" was mentioned. Someone also used the quote when the Boeing 787 first flew.

Thanks,


----------



## LameLefty

There were two new TLE's overnight . . . definitely stuff happening even if it's not terribly dramatic yet.



Code:


NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-15 10:28:46
Orbit # at Epoch	115
Inclination		0.063
RA of A. Node		32.886
Eccentricity		0.0001642
Argument of Perigee	63.467
Revs per day		1.00273214
Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 793 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		188.290
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	154 / 0 day(s)


----------



## BudShark

LameLefty said:


> There were two new TLE's overnight . . . definitely stuff happening even if it's not terribly dramatic yet.


Oh great... I bet the thrusters didn't fire... :sure:


----------



## MartyS

BudShark said:


> Oh great... I bet the thrusters didn't fire... :sure:


There was a problem with the flux capacitors. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

The dilithium crystals need to be regenerated by an inverse tachyon beam.


----------



## wmb

MartyS said:


> There was a problem with the flux capacitors. :lol:


Darn, undersized the solar panels... they don't produce the 1.21 gigawatts needed. Should have gone for the Mr. Fusion after all.


----------



## Piratefan98

I can't hold her together much longer!


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Piratefan98 said:


> I can't hold her together much longer!


They're waiting until all seems lost.

How else are they to keep their reputation as miracle workers?


----------



## oldfantom

Just remember, the scooty puff junior sucks!!!


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> The dilithium crystals need to be regenerated by an inverse tachyon beam.


Then there's the antimatter containment field, which as you , collapsed. :lol:


----------



## CTJon

I'd love to know, and someone here has the capability to do it, the percentage of messages in this and in other threads that reference / relate to Star Trek and Star Wars. I know this might be a slightly different type group but it amazes me what affect those movies had in life for us.
Anyway before someone else says it... Back to Topic.


----------



## Smthkd

I love SciFi junkies! You guys are the greatest!
Another reason for D12 to start moving!


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

LameLefty said:


> The dilithium crystals need to be regenerated by an inverse tachyon beam.


That bird won't move an inch without a dab of Kryptonite. The whole fleet would still be on the ground without the K-stuff. Then, of course, toss in the Force and a few Light Sabres, and we're on the move! At Warp Speed, no less.

Stan


----------



## loudo

I bet the DirecTV & Boeing Techs, doing the testing, get their daily humor by reading this thread. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

CTJon said:


> I'd love to know, and someone here has the capability to do it, the percentage of messages in this and in other threads that reference / relate to Star Trek and Star Wars. I know this might be a slightly different type group but it amazes me what affect those movies had in life for us.


I was home sick from the 4th grade one day in 1977 when I saw Gene Shalit's review of STAR WARS on the Today Show. My life was changed forever.  I can still remember the an ad in the newspaper movies listings months later: "HELD OVER FOR THE 22nd BIG WEEK!" How often these days does a movie last more than a month in a theater?


----------



## Go Beavs

loudo said:


> I bet the DirecTV & Boeing Techs, doing the testing, get their daily humor by reading this thread. :lol:


That's it!!! That's what's holding up D12!!!

Those guys are spending too much time reading this thread (much like myself) and have lost track of D12.  I think it's time for the boss to step in. :eek2:


----------



## Indiana627

Come on D12, time to kick the tires and light the fires!


----------



## netraa

Every time D* fires the thrusters, the Asgard beam it back to where it was so it doesn't hit the cloaked Al'Kesh the Goa'uld have in orbit watching us.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

Stanley Kritzik said:


> That bird won't move an inch without a dab of Kryptonite. The whole fleet would still be on the ground without the K-stuff. Then, of course, toss in the Force and a few Light Sabres, and we're on the move! At Warp Speed, no less.
> 
> Stan


Would that be green, red, gold, blue, or white kryptonite?


----------



## longrider

Stanley Kritzik said:


> That bird won't move an inch without a dab of Kryptonite. The whole fleet would still be on the ground without the K-stuff. Then, of course, toss in the Force and a few Light Sabres, and we're on the move! At Warp Speed, no less.
> 
> Stan





netraa said:


> Every time D* fires the thrusters, the Asgard beam it back to where it was so it doesn't hit the cloaked Al'Kesh the Goa'uld have in orbit watching us.


Great! Now on top of Star Trek and Star Wars, we have mixed in Superman and Stargate :lol:


----------



## BudShark

*D12 burned up last night????*    

Could this have been D12? They theoretically might have been getting ready to move it last night... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Video:
http://www.kwwl.com/global/video/fl...chPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&rnd=92799874

News:
http://www.startribune.com/local/90929759.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DU2EPaL_V_9E7ODiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

Lefty/Sixto? Can one of you comment? Is it possible?????

And yes, I'm joking


----------



## swans

it for another 6 months. I mean why would anybody want more HD channels?


----------



## oldfantom

texasmoose said:


> oldfantom what is that avatar? a Gnome?


My avatar is an Texas A&M Gnome, Felson, on the saddle of my bicycle prior to the MS 150 in Dallas in 2008. Sadly, the day after this picture was taken, Felson fell in the Ft Worth stockyards. He suffered two badly broken legs. He never recovered, and passed from this world shortly after. I honor him with this avatar and his commitment to good deeds, like the MS 150.

www.ms150.org


----------



## ATARI

BudShark said:


> *D12 burned up last night????*
> 
> Could this have been D12? They theoretically might have been getting ready to move it last night... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Video:
> http://www.kwwl.com/global/video/fl...chPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&rnd=92799874
> 
> News:
> http://www.startribune.com/local/90929759.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DU2EPaL_V_9E7ODiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
> 
> Lefty/Sixto? Can one of you comment? Is it possible?????
> And yes, I'm joking


See also: http://www.channel3000.com/news/23156204/detail.html


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

netraa said:


> Every time D* fires the thrusters, the Asgard beam it back to where it was so it doesn't hit the cloaked Al'Kesh the Goa'uld have in orbit watching us.





BudShark said:


> *D12 burned up last night????*
> 
> Could this have been D12? They theoretically might have been getting ready to move it last night... NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Video:
> http://www.kwwl.com/global/video/fl...chPageAdTag=News&activePane=info&rnd=92799874
> 
> News:
> http://www.startribune.com/local/90929759.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DU2EPaL_V_9E7ODiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU
> 
> Lefty/Sixto? Can one of you comment? Is it possible?????
> And yes, I'm joking


They finally got that mother ship out of the way. D12 can finally start moving now!


----------



## SuperZ06

LameLefty said:


> There were two new TLE's overnight . . . definitely stuff happening even if it's not terribly dramatic yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-15 10:28:46
> Orbit # at Epoch	115
> Inclination		0.063
> RA of A. Node		32.886
> Eccentricity		0.0001642
> Argument of Perigee	63.467
> Revs per day		1.00273214
> Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 793 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		188.290
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	154 / 0 day(s)


*Maybe you could elaborate on what's happening for those of us who don't know how to read these TLE's. Just posting them isn't very informative.

Thank You.
*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I know Sixto is away from the forum again for a little while. I'm sure when he returns he will decode the TLE's for you all.


----------



## SuperZ06

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know Sixto is away from the forum again for a little while. I'm sure when he returns he will decode the TLE's for you all.


*Thanks for the quick reply....Looking forward to Sixto's return !*


----------



## flapperdink

SuperZ06 said:


> *Maybe you could elaborate on what's happening for those of us who don't know how to read these TLE's. Just posting them isn't very informative.
> 
> Thank You.
> *


perhaps one indicator would be an increase in period, which would indicate the satellite is rotating slow (i.e. moving west) in relation to the earth's rotation?


----------



## SuperZ06

flapperdink said:


> perhaps one indicator would be an increase in period, which would indicate the satellite is rotating slow (i.e. moving west) in relation to the earth's rotation?


*It takes the earth 23h 56m to rotate one time (1 day) or rotates 1.002 times per 24 hour period. That's why we have an extra day every 4 years. The SAT has to rotate at that speed to stay at the correct location, and has been the whole time it's been in orbit.*


----------



## flapperdink

SuperZ06 said:


> *It takes the earth 23h 56m to rotate one time (1 day) or rotates 1.002 times per 24 hour period. That's why we have an extra day every 4 years. The SAT has to rotate at that speed to stay at the correct location, and has been the whole time it's been in orbit.*


understood, but would the period stay at that constant while it is drifting west? i would think "no", because in the basic understanding, period is not instantaneous but rather a time difference between the current and previous position.

i have no understanding satellite telemtry tracking, etc., but just a person trying to make an educated guess.

EDIT: i guess i am wrong...looking back at past TLEs while the SAT was moving to the IOT position at 76, the period stayed constant. ignore my previous posts.


----------



## oldfantom

SuperZ06 said:


> *It takes the earth 23h 56m to rotate one time (1 day) or rotates 1.002 times per 24 hour period. That's why we have an extra day every 4 years. The SAT has to rotate at that speed to stay at the correct location, and has been the whole time it's been in orbit.*


Yes, I have been following revs per day (1.00273214). Stupidly or not, I would assume that the number would change when the satellite moves. As it moves higher or lower, the revs per day would change.

That and there would be an explosion of posts indicating the move had started.


----------



## GoPokes43

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know Sixto is away from the forum again for a little while. I'm sure when he returns he will decode the TLE's for you all.


Careful, hdtvfan's gonna get his panties in a wad. 

By the way, no offense intended hdtvfan. Just kidding with some lighthearted fun considering the intensity of some of the posts yesterday. :icon_peac


----------



## SuperZ06

oldfantom said:


> Yes, I have been following revs per day (1.00273214). Stupidly or not, I would assume that the number would change when the satellite moves. As it moves higher or lower, the revs per day would change.
> 
> That and there would be an explosion of posts indicating the move had started.


*I agree.*


----------



## hdtvfan0001

GoPokes43 said:


> Careful, hdtvfan's gonna get his panties in a wad.
> 
> By the way, no offense intended hdtvfan. Just kidding with some lighthearted fun considering the intensity of some of the posts yesterday. :icon_peac


It's all good...fun is good....TLE's are good....info is good.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's all good...fun is good....TLE's are good....info is good.


Satelite falling on house...bad.:lol:


----------



## SpaceComo

SuperZ06 said:


> *It takes the earth 23h 56m to rotate one time (1 day) or rotates 1.002 times per 24 hour period. That's why we have an extra day every 4 years. The SAT has to rotate at that speed to stay at the correct location, and has been the whole time it's been in orbit.*


Correct. Without using a propagator, just looking at the TLE. The period is now 1.00273214. The last 4 digits will wander just keeping the bird in the "box". The "7" could also turn into a 69xxx, but if it gets less than that, the bird is drifting west. I would expect to see the period 0.999xxxxx when in full drift probably a day or so after it starts.:goodjob:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Satelite falling on house...bad.:lol:


!rolling

One asteroid or sat falling on you, and you're SOL. :lol:


----------



## SPACEMAKER

CTJon said:


> I'd love to know, and someone here has the capability to do it, the percentage of messages in this and in other threads that reference / relate to Star Trek and Star Wars. I know this might be a slightly different type group but it amazes me what affect those movies had in life for us.
> Anyway before someone else says it... Back to Topic.


I have never watched a single episode of Star Trek, watched a single Star Trek movie or watched anything Star Wars related since the 3rd movie came out in the early 80's when I was too young to know any better. Therefore many of the references are lost on me.

The closest I have ever come to geeking out on anything remotely Sci-Fi was when I used to watch Lost in Space as a child and while watching MST3K during my stoner years.


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> I was home sick from the 4th grade one day in 1977 when I saw Gene Shalit's review of STAR WARS on the Today Show. My life was changed forever.


Kids. Sheesh.

I moved to Indianapolis in May 1977. First weekend in town and nothing to do. So, I drove across town to the Eastwood Theater, one of the last decent movie theaters during that era of "tunnel theaters" in the local shopping malls. I was there in plenty of time, I thought, for the 8pm showing of Star Wars, but that show was already sold out. So, I bought a ticket for the 11pm show and hung out in the parking lot with the rest of the movie go-ers. The doors finally opened for our show and we filed in past the huge speaker columns that had been erected in the back corners of the theater. When I saw those speakers, I knew we were in for a ride. The lights dimmed. That first orchestra hit blared from the sound system. The title flew onto the screen. Yeah, what a ride.

I think I ended up seeing the first Star Wars about 6 times in the theater before the "wow" finally wore off. I kinda feel sorry for the kids of that generation who never saw it in the theater.

You are correct, sir. Star Wars changed a lot of lives. Makes me wonder many rocket scientists and satellite engineers grew up with the Star Wars franchise.


----------



## TDK1044

I don't care if it drifts or if a passing astronaut kicks the damn thing. I just want it to get there faster!


----------



## curt8403

TDK1044 said:


> I don't care if it drifts or if a passing astronaut *kicks the* damn *thing*. I just want it to get there faster!


won't that shatter the solar panels?


----------



## TDK1044

curt8403 said:


> won't that shatter the solar panels?


You're onto something there. It's sunbathing!


----------



## James Long

smiddy said:


> Then there's the antimatter containment field, which as you , collapsed. :lol:


Coolant leak!


----------



## Movieman

Doug's signature says it all.


----------



## erosroadie

TDK1044 said:


> You're onto something there. It's sunbathing!


I understand from a business contact at B* (who would know) that there isn't one mechanical fastener used in the construction of these satellites. Everything is basically glued together. Rationale is that mechanical fasteners are simply too unreliable for all the incredible forces the satellite goes through from launch to parking. A loose rivet or screw would be catastrophic for the bird.

Moral of the story is: Can't afford to have a screw loose. Hope that it doesn't become unglued...


----------



## cartrivision

SuperZ06 said:


> *Maybe you could elaborate on what's happening for those of us who don't know how to read these TLE's. Just posting them isn't very informative.
> 
> Thank You.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Stuart Sweet said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know Sixto is away from the forum again for a little while. I'm sure when he returns he will decode the TLE's for you all.
Click to expand...

So until then, nobody should ask the person who posts a TLE and comments that "stuff is happening" to explain exactly what they meant by their comment?


----------



## James Long

cartrivision said:


> So until then, nobody should ask the person who posts a TLE and comments that "stuff is happening" to explain exactly what they meant by their comment?


Unfortunately the only "stuff" known to be happening is the release of a new TLE.
What it means is up to those who understand that stuff.

(Personally I'm looking for a definite change of period. The current TLEs just seem to be minor corrections of staying at 76 and not real movement.)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> Unfortunately the only "stuff" known to be happening is the release of a new TLE.
> What it means is up to those who understand that stuff.
> 
> (Personally I'm looking for a definite change of period. The current TLEs just seem to be minor corrections of staying at 76 and not real movement.)


I'm looking for a change in period also. If it changing relative to Earths rotational period (one day ) then it's moving. Until then it seems not much is happening.

Mike


----------



## jefbal99

I think we'll see an FCC approval of drift for the Space Station prior to the TLEs changing. I haven't mastered searching the FCC database, so I leave that to Lefty and Sixto. I do check space-track a few times a day for updated TLEs and post here if no one else has yet.


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> I think we'll see an FCC approval of drift for the Space Station prior to the TLEs changing. I haven't mastered searching the FCC database, so I leave that to Lefty and Sixto. I do check space-track a few times a day for updated TLEs and post here if no one else has yet.


Yeah, I expect that paperwork is probably sitting on a desk at the FCC International Bureau already.  Looking at the TLEs over the last week or so, the stationkeeping seems to have gotten looser - they're not expending so much effort to keep things confined to a very small window. That could be part of the tests, too, by the way - to see how the signal and control characteristics vary under certain conditions.


----------



## BudShark

Just keep hitting refresh on this link:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

When a "Grant Date" appears - you're golden. Let us know when it changes.


----------



## ricochet

SuperZ06 said:


> It takes the earth 23h 56m to rotate one time (1 day) or rotates 1.002 times per 24 hour period. That's why we have an extra day every 4 years. The SAT has to rotate at that speed to stay at the correct location, and has been the whole time it's been in orbit.


I agree with your first sentence but then you lost me. Leap days are required because it takes slightly longer than 365 days to orbit the sun.

The earth does take 23h 56m (1 sidereal day) to rotate, but it takes 24h (1 solar day) to reach the same place relative to the sun. The reason these are different is because we are orbiting the sun at the same time the planet is rotating.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Just keep hitting refresh on this link:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> When a "Grant Date" appears - you're golden. Let us know when it changes.


Unless the FCC doesn't update their website until after a new TLE appears . . .


----------



## ATARI

oldfantom said:


> Yes, I have been following revs per day (1.00273214). Stupidly or not, I would assume that the number would change when the satellite moves. As it moves higher or lower, the revs per day would change.
> 
> That and there would be an explosion of posts indicating the move had started.


Maybe what we're seeing is they've engaged the clutch.

Now they just need to shift it into gear and apply some gas.

I love car analogies.


----------



## smiddy

Is the sky falling, AGAIN?! Wait, wait, I'll catch it...


----------



## jilardi2

smiddy said:


> Is the sky falling, AGAIN?! Wait, wait, I'll catch it...


let me get it this time, why do you always have to be the hero.
!pride!pride!pride!pride


----------



## jefbal99

smiddy said:


> Is the sky falling, AGAIN?! Wait, wait, I'll catch it...


Hey, I've got a spare tarp at home, you stand on one side, I'll take the other. If we both pull really hard, I think we can salvage it before impact  :hurah:


----------



## curt8403

:hair::bang:bonk1::crying::blackeye: 
The Sky is falling?

:hair::bang:bonk1::crying::blackeye:


----------



## bobnielsen

Just don't let the guys in the Glad Forceflex commercial catch it!


----------



## cartrivision

James Long said:


> Unfortunately the only "stuff" known to be happening is the release of a new TLE.
> What it means is up to those who understand that stuff.


Except that the person who posted the TLE also made the comment that "something is happening", so I didn't think that it was at all out of line for someone to ask him to explain what exactly he meant with his comment of "something is happening"... and it certainly had nothing to do Sixto's absence from the forums.


----------



## BudShark

cartrivision said:


> Except that the person who posted the TLE also made the comment that "something is happening", so I didn't think that it was at all out of line for someone to ask him to explain what exactly he meant with his comment of "something is happening"... and it certainly had nothing to do Sixto's absence from the forums.


When something worth reporting is happening, Sixto/Lefty will report it and the locked thread will be updated.

Otherwise "somethings happening" could refer to the Sat, FCC updates, or a bowel movement. You never know.  But rest assured, when something worth noting happens with D12 - we'll all be properly updated...


----------



## SuperZ06

ricochet said:


> I agree with your first sentence but then you lost me. Leap days are required because it takes slightly longer than 365 days to orbit the sun.
> 
> The earth does take 23h 56m (1 sidereal day) to rotate, but it takes 24h (1 solar day) to reach the same place relative to the sun. The reason these are different is because we are orbiting the sun at the same time the planet is rotating.


*You are right about that.

What I had in my head didn't transfer to my fingers quite right. :lol:

*


----------



## TBlazer07

bb37 said:


> Star Wars changed a lot of lives.


 Yea it sure did. It turned a lot of people into wacko costume wearing druggies! May the farce be with you! :lol:


----------



## oldfantom

BudShark said:


> When something worth reporting is happening, Sixto/Lefty will report it and the locked thread will be updated.
> 
> Otherwise "somethings happening" could refer to the Sat, FCC updates, or a bowel movement. You never know.  But rest assured, when something worth noting happens with D12 - we'll all be properly updated...


Not to beat this dead horse to much longer, but lefty was the one who said



LameLefty said:


> There were two new TLE's overnight . . . definitely stuff happening


Even though he did go on to say



LameLefty said:


> even if it's not terribly dramatic yet.


----------



## swans

D12 went down over the midwest.:eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

swans said:


> D12 went down over the midwest.:eek2:


You must have skipped this earlier today . . . 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2424013#post2424013


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

smiddy said:


> Is the sky falling, AGAIN?! Wait, wait, I'll catch it...


I got it...I got it...I got it...

Oops. I don't got it


----------



## Beerstalker

Maybe that's why it keeps moving around a little bit lately, it's dodging the meteors like in that air force commercial (or is it a different branch?) :scratchin


----------



## rey_1178

y'all need to go back to your old avatars. now i can't tell who is who :bang


----------



## LameLefty

Beerstalker said:


> Maybe that's why it keeps moving around a little bit lately, it's dodging the meteors like in that air force commercial (or is it a different branch?) :scratchin


(Speaking as an AF vet . . .) No, that's not a commercial for the Air Force. Check the uniforms: it's the Empire. :nono:


----------



## smiddy

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> I got it...I got it...I got it...
> 
> Oops. I don't got it


Dude, you dropped the ball. :lol:


----------



## curt8403

rey_1178 said:


> y'all need to go back to your old avatars. now i can't tell who is who :bang


our new Avatars express the idea that the sky is falling.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

smiddy said:


> Dude, you dropped the ball. :lol:


Too busy getting my passport, packing, etc...

Sorry. Maybe next satelite.:sure:


----------



## usnret

Does it run on E85??


----------



## Carl Spock

curt8403 said:


> rey_1178 said:
> 
> 
> 
> y'all need to go back to your old avatars. now i can't tell who is who :bang
> 
> 
> 
> our new Avatars express the idea that the sky is falling.
Click to expand...

Really? Is there a contest?


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . . wobble, wobble . . . 



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-15 10:28:46
Orbit # at Epoch	115
Inclination		0.059
RA of A. Node		26.698
Eccentricity		0.0001672
Argument of Perigee	64.074
Revs per day		1.00270173
[B]Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)[/B]
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 794 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		193.863
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	155 / 0 day(s)


----------



## T-Hefner

damn...lots of TLE action today eh?


----------



## LameLefty

T-Hefner said:


> damn...lots of TLE action today eh?


Yep. I think the game is afoot.


----------



## BudShark

LameLefty said:


> Yep. I think the game is afoot.


Rabbit foot or chicken foot?


----------



## TBlazer07

R.I.P. D-12 :icon_cry: ?

"Residents across five Midwestern states are buzzing about the roaring fireball that lit up the sky last night. Space aces say it was most likely a meteor but could have been the slow moving DirecTV "D-12" Satellite that fell out of the sky or a chunk from an asteroid that whizzed between Earth and the moon this week."

http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ball-lights-night-sky-over-5-midwest-states/1


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> New TLE . . . wobble, wobble . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DIRECTV 12
> NORAD #			36131
> COSPAR designator	2009-075-A
> Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-15 10:28:46
> Orbit # at Epoch	115
> Inclination		0.059
> RA of A. Node		26.698
> Eccentricity		0.0001672
> Argument of Perigee	64.074
> Revs per day		1.00270173
> [B]Period			23h 56m 07s (1436.12 min)[/B]
> Semi-major axis		42 165 km
> [B]Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 794 km[/B]
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		193.863
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	155 / 0 day(s)


Thanks;

But not to ask you or Sixto to do more work for us LL, but its kind of hard to tell if D12 is on the move or not just from just this TLE info. which is more about describing the shape and orientation of satellite's orbit (or ephemeris data) around the earth than it's specific latitude/longitude position at epoch.

Does the source you are quoting the TLEs from list the Lat/Long. location of the satellite above the earth at the TLE's epoch time?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Thanks;
> 
> But not to ask you or Sixto to do more work for us LL, but its kind of hard to tell if D12 is on the move or not just from just this TLE info. which is more about describing the shape and orientation of satellite's orbit (or ephemeris data) around the earth than it's specific latitude/longitude position at epoch.
> 
> Does the source you are quoting the TLEs from list the Lat/Long. location of the satellite above the earth at the TLE's epoch time?


The program I'm using generates pseudo-real time data, so I can tell you where the vehicle is at any given time (within the mathematic limits of the model and "currentness" of the TLE of course). From that I could generate lat/long at the epoch time or any time within the next couple days, probably, absent any maneuvers.

Now, all that said, the best indicators to me that "something" is happening or is "caught in the act" (*) of happening are the fact that at least three separate data sets have been generated since last evening, and the fact that the period, apogee and perigee are all in flux.

(*) If a TLE is generated from positional data fixes taken during the duration of a propulsive event, the data will be only marginally valuable for future predictions and, of course, won't accurately reflect the true changes to the orbital trajectory that will have occurred by the time the propulsive event is concluded. It is interesting that the two most-recent element sets have the same epoch time; for some reason, the initial data for that epoch time was inaccurate.


----------



## P Smith

That excessive wobbling started 6 weeks ago.


----------



## Dusty

LameLefty said:


> The program I'm using generates pseudo-real time data, so I can tell you where the vehicle is at any given time (within the mathematic limits of the model and "currentness" of the TLE of course). From that I could generate lat/long at the epoch time or any time within the next couple days, probably, absent any maneuvers.
> 
> Now, all that said, the best indicators to me that "something" is happening or is "caught in the act" (*) of happening are the fact that at least three separate data sets have been generated since last evening, and the fact that the period, apogee and perigee are all in flux.
> 
> (*) If a TLE is generated from positional data fixes taken during the duration of a propulsive event, the data will be only marginally valuable for future predictions and, of course, won't accurately reflect the true changes to the orbital trajectory that will have occurred by the time the propulsive event is concluded. It is interesting that the two most-recent element sets have the same epoch time; for some reason, the initial data for that epoch time was inaccurate.


So for someone who is not a rocket scientist, does this mean that this could signal the beginning of the move but we don't know until we have more data from the next a few days?


----------



## flapperdink

LameLefty said:


> The program I'm using generates pseudo-real time data, so I can tell you where the vehicle is at any given time (within the mathematic limits of the model and "currentness" of the TLE of course). From that I could generate lat/long at the epoch time or any time within the next couple days, probably, absent any maneuvers.
> 
> Now, all that said, the best indicators to me that "something" is happening or is "caught in the act" (*) of happening are the fact that at least three separate data sets have been generated since last evening, and the fact that the period, apogee and perigee are all in flux.
> 
> (*) If a TLE is generated from positional data fixes taken during the duration of a propulsive event, the data will be only marginally valuable for future predictions and, of course, won't accurately reflect the true changes to the orbital trajectory that will have occurred by the time the propulsive event is concluded. It is interesting that the two most-recent element sets have the same epoch time; for some reason, the initial data for that epoch time was inaccurate.


so in a nutshell you're saying that correction TLEs are typically generated when the object is moving, because the first TLE was based on a prediction which was later proved to be incorrect?


----------



## P Smith

Not necessary, but most likely.


----------



## LameLefty

flapperdink said:


> so in a nutshell you're saying that correction TLEs are typically generated when the object is moving, because the first TLE was based on a prediction which was later proved to be incorrect?


At least sometimes, yes. Other times, corrections can be issued because the initial TLE may have been generated based on partial data or subject to "noise" in the measurements that can be corrected by proper data reduction techniques.


----------



## CockerKingdom

:lol::lol:E14 killoed D12!:lol:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

P Smith said:


> That excessive wobbling started 6 weeks ago.


Did D10 or D11 ever experience "excessive" wobbling? If so, how soon there after did they start their drift?


----------



## bjlc

just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..

and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment.. 

just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail.. 

but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


Interesting. What makes you think it's dead. It doesn't make any sense to me but maybe I'm missing something. Share your reasoning. 

Mike


----------



## P Smith

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


Seems to me you are is the addictive person to the umm postings here. 
Quit READING ! Man !


----------



## flapperdink

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


many people have said it's dead...go on with your life


----------



## rrrick8

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


----------



## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


Read my signature line. The sky is falling. :lol:


----------



## sigma1914

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


----------



## flapperdink

LameLefty said:


> At least sometimes, yes. Other times, corrections can be issued because the initial TLE may have been generated based on partial data or subject to "noise" in the measurements that can be corrected by proper data reduction techniques.


so another curiosity question: how often are TLEs generated? looking through the history of D12, they doesn't appear to follow a consistent pattern (perhaps they were, but only significant ones were posted?). thanks for satisfying my interest :grin:


----------



## tcusta00

bjlc said:


> just SOME ONE HAVE THE GUTS to say that the thing is dead and put us out of our misery.. this crap goes on Day after day.. and story after story is told..
> 
> and the ubiquitous SOON.. which in real terms means BULL SHIRT.. but its enough to make you wait one more segment..
> 
> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..
> 
> but just stop hosing us on a daily basis..


It's dead. It's up there and it doesn't work. It's deader than a doornail.

You're dismissed.


----------



## LameLefty

flapperdink said:


> so another curiosity question: how often are TLEs generated? looking through the history of D12, they doesn't appear to follow a consistent pattern (perhaps they were, but only significant ones were posted?). thanks for satisfying my interest :grin:


It's up to the vagaries of USSPACECOM.  What it boils down to is, when things change significantly enough to warrant a new element set or when the satellite operator informs them to look for such a change ("Hey, SPACECOM, we're moving our bird!"), new element sets are generated based on observations from various sensors: optical, radar, doppler measurements of telemetry signals, etc. At least three positional measurements taken at discrete points in time are necessary to plot an orbit in the absence of other data (such as the orbital equivalent of a flight plan from the satellite operator).


----------



## Shades228

Is it wobbling or is it them moving the satellite to test at different angles? I thought I remember reading that it was going to be moved around to point the BSS load at test facilities.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

It's bleedin' demised.


----------



## whatliesbeyond

bjlc said:


> just some one TELL the fricking truth already.. its up there.. It doesn't work, or work like it should, or its deader then a doornail..


The truth is . . . no one who posts to this forum knows, *with absolute certainty*, what the situation is, because apparently none of us has first hand, non-hearsay knowledge of the matter through direct employment with the satellite company, Directv, or the FCC (or the technical or legal firms hired by them). But while apparently none of us can speak with absolute certainty, it appears at least some of the people who post to this forum have been told, by people with at least some degree of reliable knowledge (presumably gained through their direct employment with the satellite company, Directv, the FCC, or the technical or legal firms they employ), that D12 is fine, and at some point in the near, or relatively near, future (that is to say, within the next hour to two months), D12 will be moved to its final resting place and begin thereafter the delivery of most and probably even all of whatever additional programming options the Directv management had in mind when they launched D12.

In addition to the second-hand, hearsay knowledge just mentioned, some of the people who post to this forum possess skill at reading TLEs and what not, and all of these people also seem to believe D12 is still up there and doing fine, and is getting ready for a move, etc. And unlike some of us non-geeks, they don't think the time taken so far for "testing" (or any additional time spent this way, assuming it ends within the next month or so) is cause for concern.

Finally, there is the comfort of the odds. Statistically speaking, at this point the probability of any serious problems is low. The overwhelming number of satellites sent into space by Directv and Dish have ended up successfully accomplishing their mission. And the greatest risk of failure has apparently passed, since this is when the launch itself takes place.

In sum, we don't seem to have anyone in this forum with first hand knowledge (or anyone with such knowledge who is also willing to post specfic information), but we have been told, by trustworthy people who possess apparently reliable second-hand information and/or technical skills in satellite tracking, etc., that D12 is fine and will, soon (heh), be sending us more programming of some sort.


----------



## Talos4

HEY!! WAKE UP!!!


----------



## Mark Walters

uh oh...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/04/15/midwest.fireball/index.html?section=cnn_latest

:eek2:

just kidding


----------



## carl6

whatliesbeyond said:


> The truth is . . . no one who posts to this forum knows, *with absolute certainty*, what the situation is, because apparently none of us has first hand, non-hearsay knowledge of the matter through direct employment with the satellite company, Directv, or the FCC (or the technical or legal firms hired by them). But while apparently none of us can speak with absolute certainty, it appears at least some of the people who post to this forum have been told, by people with at least some degree of reliable knowledge (presumably gained through their direct employment with the satellite company, Directv, the FCC, or the technical or legal firms they employ), that D12 is fine, and at some point in the near, or relatively near, future (that is to say, within the next hour to two months), D12 will be moved to its final resting place and begin thereafter the delivery of most and probably even all of whatever additional programming options the Directv management had in mind when they launched D12.
> 
> In addition to the second-hand, hearsay knowledge just mentioned, some of the people who post to this forum possess skill at reading TLEs and what not, and all of these people also seem to believe D12 is still up there and doing fine, and is getting ready for a move, etc. And unlike some of us non-geeks, they don't think the time taken so far for "testing" (or any additional time spent this way, assuming it ends within the next month or so) is cause for concern.
> 
> Finally, there is the comfort of the odds. Statistically speaking, at this point the probability of any serious problems is low. The overwhelming number of satellites sent into space by Directv and Dish have ended up successfully accomplishing their mission. And the greatest risk of failure has apparently passed, since this is when the launch itself takes place.
> 
> In sum, we don't seem to have anyone in this forum with first hand knowledge (or anyone with such knowledge who is also willing to post specfic information), but we have been told, by trustworthy people who possess apparently reliable second-hand information and/or technical skills in satellite tracking, etc., that D12 is fine and will, soon (heh), be sending us more programming of some sort.


Wow, you went and summarized almost 6000 posts in four paragraphs. Outstanding job!


----------



## cdhinch

There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.

DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189


----------



## Lord Vader

Tick, tock. Tick, tock.

!Devil_lol!Devil_lol!Devil_lol


----------



## Davenlr

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> SAT-STA-20100415-00077


That is really disappointing. Maybe someone should call the phone number listed on the application and ask them "WHAZ UP"?


----------



## slimoli

My only guess is they were ready to move and something else came up. Any other guess ?


----------



## cforrest

slimoli said:


> My only guess is they were ready to move and something else came up. Any other guess ?


Something is wrong with the satellite and they are trying to determine how bad it is. Who knows?


----------



## Davenlr

cforrest said:


> Something is wrong with the satellite and they are trying to determine how bad it is. Who knows?


Im not going to worry until June, when the new LILs were announced to go live. If the satellite is still at 76 in June, then Ill start worrying.


----------



## cforrest

Davenlr said:


> Im not going to worry until June, when the new LILs were announced to go live. If the satellite is still at 76 in June, then Ill start worrying.


Maybe those new LILs will come from SW1. Unless SW1 is being used for something else!


----------



## SuperZ06

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189


*Soon *


----------



## TheRatPatrol

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189


Could that STA be for the move though?


----------



## slimoli

TheRatPatrol said:


> Could that STA be for the move though?


No way. It clearly says for more testing at 76.

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to
continue to conduct in−orbit testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite for up to 30 days at the
76 degree W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable
under the STA currently in force"


----------



## TheRatPatrol

slimoli said:


> No way. It clearly says for more testing at 76.


Oh great. At this rate maybe it will be September before its ready.


----------



## SuperZ06

TheRatPatrol said:


> Could that STA be for the move though?


*No.*

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to
continue to conduct in−orbit testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite for up to 30 days at the
76 degree W.L. orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable
under the STA currently in force."


----------



## SuperZ06

*WOW....we all jumped on that one.....:lol: :lol:

*


----------



## Groundhog45

I know what's wrong.


----------



## rrrick8




----------



## inkahauts

I personally think that they are trying to get some new thing working to dl in high speed for VOD and PPV and are having trouble getting the system to work.. ...

I also wonder if they haven't been actually testing lately, based on the wobble we have had, because they are working on something at one of the earth stations, and wanted to get that finished so they could properly test something...


----------



## BigRedFan

Very sad news, indeed.....I hope I'm not being overly paranoid, and since I'm new here, I lack the historical knowledge, but could there be a relationship between this latest STA and the fact that DirecTV removed (on their website) all references to "capacity for 200 HD channels" earlier this week ?......The return to the "130 HD channels" language has not been seen there, I believe, since last Sept. or October..... So, I ask, did D10 ever have any DTV marketing re-writes/reversals (for its big HD capacity) while it was waiting to be parked in its final location ?....


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Clearly not going well......


----------



## matt

Davenlr said:


> That is really disappointing. Maybe someone should call the phone number listed on the application and ask them "WHAZ UP"?


I wonder how long they would put you on hold? :lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189


WTF? I thought they were granted permission to start testing during the drift already. 

I wonder if this is a forgery, some kind of late April Fool's Day prank by the doomsayers.


----------



## sdirv

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189


Only makes sense since the current STA for testing is set to expire on Sunday, and although D* filed an application for a 30 day STA to drift the bird to the new location, last I heard FAA hadn't approved it yet.

So, they're sitting on an STA to test that expires on Sunday, without authority to begin the drift.......what'r ya gonna do?????


----------



## cforrest

Letter from counsel asking for the extension:

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926


----------



## Hutchinshouse

sdirv said:


> Only makes sense since the current STA for testing is set to expire on Sunday, and although D* filed an application for a 30 day STA to drift the bird to the new location, last I heard FAA hadn't approved it yet.
> 
> So, they're sitting on an STA to test that expires on Sunday, without authority to begin the drift.......what'r ya gonna do?????


I like the way you think.


----------



## sdirv

From December:

http://www.pddnet.com/news-ap-boeing-built-directv-12-satellite-delivers-1st-sig-122909/


----------



## Groundhog45

cforrest said:


> Letter from counsel asking for the extension:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926


It says they want to ensure proper operation of the satellite. Sounds like they are just not finished checking everything out. Still no hint of problems.


----------



## P Smith

IOT doesn't follow plans if second extension asked... Hope Boeing will figure out the issue(s) soon.


----------



## adkinsjm

P Smith said:


> IOT doesn't follow plans if second extension asked... Hope Boeing will figure out the issue(s) soon.


Who here works for Boeing or can I assume everyone has their rocket science degrees and just works from home?


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> I also wonder if they haven't been actually testing lately, based on the wobble we have had, because they are working on something at one of the earth stations, and wanted to get that finished so they could properly test something...


It's not like they just let the satellite wobble around up there and then grab control when they're ready to test.

I was on the fence before, leaning to one side, but after this latest extension I'm hopping off. Something is wrong with D12.


----------



## sdirv

cforrest said:


> Letter from counsel asking for the extension:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926


Yep.......this had to be filed today for an approval tomorrow, cause the current STA expires on Sunday.......

Like I said.....what'r ya gonna do???????


----------



## Jeremy W

sdirv said:


> Like I said.....what'r ya gonna do???????


Walk around with a hard hat, so you don't get hit by a falling piece of D12!


----------



## sdirv

Hutchinshouse said:


> I like the way you think.


I was a program manager when I retired from the government in 2005 after 30 years.......


----------



## SuperZ06

cdhinch said:


> There has been another STA filed today for an extension of 30 days for testing.
> 
> DirecTV 12 - SAT-STA-20100415-00077
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01188
> Earth Station - SES-STA-INTR2010-01189





cforrest said:


> Letter from counsel asking for the extension:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926


*STA filed for and approved the same/next day !!*



sdirv said:


> Only makes sense since the current STA for testing is set to expire on Sunday, and although D* filed an application for a 30 day STA to drift the bird to the new location, last I heard FAA hadn't approved it yet.
> 
> So, they're sitting on an STA to test that expires on Sunday, without authority to begin the drift.......what'r ya gonna do?????


*You meant FCC....
Doesn't make sense to me that it would so long (weeks) to approve a drift (even though may be more complicated) that D* has to ask for another testing extension because the first one is going to expire. :nono2:

Although I agree D* needs another extension because there is no approval, I doubt D* is waiting for FCC approval. More like D12 is not ready.

*


----------



## am7crew

Groundhog45 said:


> It says they want to ensure proper operation of the satellite. Sounds like they are just not finished checking everything out. Still no hint of problems.


an extension IS a hint of a problem, but whatever makes you sleep better. Im telling you guys, June 2010.


----------



## bobnielsen

adkinsjm said:


> Who here works for Boeing or can I assume everyone has their rocket science degrees and just works from home?


If there are any here who work for Boeing, I highly doubt that they are able to comment.

I worked in the satellite area of Hughes (which later became part of Boeing), but that was >40 years ago. The need for additional testing doesn't surprise me at all. There are tests that they can do at 76 which might interfere with current operations of D10 or SW1 if performed at 103.


----------



## Jeremy W

bobnielsen said:


> There are tests that they can do at 76 which might interfere with current operations of D10 or SW1 if performed at 103.


And they've already had two months to do them. This isn't a new type of satellite, it's the third one DirecTV has of this type. They also knew beforehand what testing they wanted to do, and a good approximation of how long it should take. Asking for *two* extensions can only mean that the testing did not go well, and they need more time to figure things out.


----------



## James Long

inkahauts said:


> I personally think that they are trying to get some new thing working to dl in high speed for VOD and PPV and are having trouble getting the system to work.. ...


That isn't the kind of tests that are done before putting a satellite in place.

Tests are raw data signals. Content is irrelevant. They just want to make sure the transponders can handle the bit rates that they are designed to handle (the same bit rates you'll find on other DirecTV satellites) and that the footprint is what is expected.

Grant of approval to continue testing will allow them to do whatever tests they didn't get done or were not satisfied with. One would have to look back at D11 and D10 to figure out what is normal for length of time testing. Sometimes the FCC limits licensees and requires STAs to be extended instead of giving one STA for the entire length of time that a licensee needs the STA.

The late renewal of this STA is a tea leaf that DirecTV did not intend to extend the STA but has decided to do so to extend testing beyond their original plan. But it doesn't mean that DirecTV will not meet their original goal for putting D12 into service sometime this quarter. They have 11 weeks to make the December press release "true".

BTW: In service relates to the satellite not any new channels.

My condolences to those who wait. Trust me, I know what it is like to wait for a long time for a few new channels. Best wishes and patience to all ... especially to the DirecTV employees who have to put up with the complaints. It isn't their fault that DirecTV is missing a few HD channels.


----------



## SWORDFISH

The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.

SF


----------



## RobertY

:zzz12 is fine the problem is the testing equipment.


----------



## RobertY

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## syphix

I worry about the stability of this thread for another 30 days more than I worry about the stability of D12. 

Face it: it's television, guys. If D12 fails, big dealio. Pick up your toys and go to a competitor if you must, or simply go outside and enjoy it. Life is in HD...AND 3D. And costs nothing.


----------



## MartyS

syphix said:


> I worry about the stability of this thread for another 30 days more than I worry about the stability of D12.
> 
> Face it: it's television, guys. If D12 fails, big dealio. Pick up your toys and go to a competitor if you must, or simply go outside and enjoy it. Life is in HD...AND 3D. And costs nothing.


Very well put. I agree with you completely. Could not have said it better myself.


----------



## TBlazer07

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.
> 
> SF


 I believe most of them are just waking up.


----------



## tcusta00

They filed a 30 day extension. Did they say it's dead? Never mind, y'all go ahead and doomsay as much as you want. It's only tv.


----------



## MartyS

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.
> 
> SF


Jeez... why don't you let them wake up.  :nono2::nono2:


----------



## Piratefan98

It's dead Jim


----------



## BudShark

SuperZ06 said:


> *STA filed for and approved the same/next day !!*
> 
> *You meant FCC....
> Doesn't make sense to me that it would so long (weeks) to approve a drift (even though may be more complicated) that D* has to ask for another testing extension because the first one is going to expire. :nono2:
> 
> Although I agree D* needs another extension because there is no approval, I doubt D* is waiting for FCC approval. More like D12 is not ready.
> 
> *


It wasn't approved. Where are you getting that. It was filed yesterday, no approval.


----------



## BudShark

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.
> 
> SF


Sorry - I was moving my family to the South Dakota black hills and emptying the grocery store of all sustainable food...  :eek2:


----------



## smiddy

Another day, another sky is falling mantra, woowho! 

I think I can speculate, but I will not. Ladies and Gentlemen, please remain calm, we can not possibly know what is going on until it is revealed to us. We know only that DirecTV wishes to continue testing at 76 location, that is it. Anything else is speculation.


----------



## tcusta00

smiddy said:


> Another day, another sky is falling mantra, woowho!
> 
> I think I can speculate, but I will not. Ladies and Gentlemen, please remain calm, we can not possibly know what is going on until it is revealed to us. We know only that DirecTV wishes to continue testing at 76 location, that is it. Anything else is speculation.


Fanboi


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Another day, another sky is falling mantra, woowho!
> 
> I think I can speculate, but I will not. Ladies and Gentlemen, please remain calm, we can not possibly know what is going on until it is revealed to us. We know only that DirecTV wishes to continue testing at 76 location, that is it. Anything else is speculation.


You're clearly a Directv apologist/shill/fanboi/sock puppet . . . we all know you work for Directv and drink the flavored beverages. 

:lol:


----------



## flapperdink

Jeremy W said:


> It's not like they just let the satellite wobble around up there and then grab control when they're ready to test.
> 
> I was on the fence before, leaning to one side, but after this latest extension I'm hopping off. Something is wrong with D12.


i'm starting to lean towards this side as well. they must have been ready to drift and something came up at the last minute that warranted more test...why else would the FCC retroactively approve the STAs for the earth stations starting 4/7 if they didn't have high confidence that D12 would be in place by 5/7?


----------



## mobandit

I love how so many keep pointing at D12 as the probable source of a possible failure...when it is just as likely that one of the earth stations is having an issue...or that there is nothing wrong except that possibly the schedule for testing was too aggressive, and they are finding that out...


----------



## BudShark

flapperdink said:


> i'm starting to lean towards this side as well. they must have been ready to drift and something came up at the last minute that warranted more test...why else would the FCC retroactively approve the STAs for the earth stations starting 4/7 if they didn't have high confidence that D12 would be in place by 5/7?


I can think of a lot of other reasons.

Surprising - maybe a little. End of the world? No. Indicator of problems? Not one bit. It could be a personnel issue, it could be an engineer found something in the BSS testing, it could be tolerance testing.

On the other hand -

D12 could presently be spinning out of control - on a collission course with D10 and D11... By next Tuesday we could be down to 9 HD channels (all PPV of course...)


----------



## flapperdink

mobandit said:


> I love how so many keep pointing at D12 as the probable source of a possible failure...when it is just as likely that one of the earth stations is having an issue...or that there is nothing wrong except that possibly the schedule for testing was too aggressive, and they are finding that out...


the earth station being an issue i would have to disagree with based on the letter filed by D* to the FCC...they clearly state the STA extension would benefit the "...public interest by allowing DIRECTV to complete testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite..."

the aggressive testing schedule may be a plausible argument, but i find it hard to believe that the schedule would be aggressive given the history Boeing has in satellite deployment.


----------



## MartyS

BudShark said:


> I can think of a lot of other reasons.
> 
> Surprising - maybe a little. End of the world? No. Indicator of problems? Not one bit. It could be a personnel issue, it could be an engineer found something in the BSS testing, it could be tolerance testing.
> 
> On the other hand -
> 
> *D12 could presently be spinning out of control - on a collission course with D10 and D11... By next Tuesday we could be down to 9 HD channels (all PPV of course...)*


Hmm... just as possible as every other conspiracy theory that I've seen out here, Budshark... :lol:


----------



## Rikinky

I'm sticking with my first theory: Ok I figured out why it's taking so long to get D12 operational. The powers that be are constructing D12 to be able to resist the solar flares that are going to take place on December 21, 2012, that will result in the end of the world, and the good news is after the construction of this satellite we will all be able to watch the end of the world in 3D HD from our living rooms and Directv will exclusively be the only provider to bring all the action live!
:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## georule

The not knowing doesn't go past early May when DTV reports 1st quarter results. If that bird is still sitting at 76 at that point, they'll have to tell the analysts why. Sometime between now and then the CEO or CFO wanders down to engineer-ville and says "So, uh, guys. . . wassup?". He doesn't want to see them; they don't want to see him. They'll get it moving if possible before then.


----------



## wavemaster

wavemaster said:


> So we have heard at least a thousand times that everything is good, everything is going as planned - (I guess according to the most recent plan?) seeing how D12 was supposed to be a ground spare wasn't it?
> 
> I am not saying there is anything catastrophically wrong but at the same time I am willing to bet (say $100.00) that after is all said and done we find out there were issues. (maybe similar to D10).
> 
> Any Takers?


No takers last time, even from the "read some signature line" crowd.

How about now?

I would think that after two of these going through testing (D10 and 11) they would have a good handle on the timeframe as well as any special testing they wanted to add and it's associated time - just sayin'.


----------



## LameLefty

wavemaster said:


> No takers last time, even from the "read some signature line" crowd.


Read my signature line.

:lol:


----------



## Hdhead

Like it or not Lord Vader's source is so far the most accurate we have had. As the months go by a less than healthy D12 is apparent. Hoping it's not the "you do not want to know" scenario.


----------



## wavemaster

LameLefty said:


> Read my signature line.
> 
> :lol:


LOL

When someone tells me "everything is going to plan" I can only ASSume that they know what the actual plan is. Does that make sense?

So it would have been nice if the "its going as planned crowd" had said there will be 2 or 3 months of testing and multiple extensions (just like in the plan right?) before it is drifted into its slot.

Then this thread could idle the "planned" amount of time.

I personally do not think things are going as planned.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

BudShark said:


> Sorry - I was moving my family to the South Dakota black hills and emptying the grocery store of all sustainable food...  :eek2:


Could someone help him get the wheels off his new house? :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

The Mods here have never lead me wrong, so I have to keep my faith in them. However, the longer testing goes on, it does make the skeptical side of me wonder that they are testing and why it has pushed the schedule this far.

Once again, this extension is for the D12/KA portion of the bird, not the RB-2A/BSS side.


----------



## BudShark

wavemaster said:


> LOL
> 
> When someone tells me "everything is going to plan" I can only ASSume that they know what the actual plan is. Does that make sense?
> 
> So it would have been nice if the "its going as planned crowd" had said there will be 2 or 3 months of testing and multiple extensions (just like in the plan right?) before it is drifted into its slot.
> 
> Then this thread could idle the "planned" amount of time.
> 
> I personally do not think things are going as planned.


Going as planned was based on the *ONE* plan people had available to them which was:

1) Launch on Dec. 29
2) Park at 76 and test
3) Move to 103 by May 5th.

That is the only plan that has EVER been out there. Period. If you could show me another plan that DirecTV published that stated anything OTHER than that - I'd be happy to help. But all the conspiracy theorists have is "The website said this..." Whatever. You're right, the website is more accurate than an FCC filing. :sure:

*I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING REGARDING THE HEALTH OF D12. MY BEEF HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE WITH THIS PRESUMED ASSUMPTION THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG BECAUSE AN INTERN POSTED APRIL ON A WEBSITE. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG. IT IS EQUALLY POSSIBLE THAT 1000 OTHER THINGS ARE GOING ON. I DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. I BASE MY ASSUMPTIONS ON FCC FILINGS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROVEN TO UNDERSTAND THIS AND HAVE CONTACTS (SIXTO/LAMELEFTY/DOUG/TOM/STUART).*

Ok - I'm done snapping for the day. I'll go back to having some fun after this post...


----------



## uncrules

I wonder if the leaks that are coming from within Directv saying that D12 is fine may not be truthful (I'm not impugning Tom or Doug, they're just reporting what they've been told). My thinking is if info about D12 having problems was leaked before an SEC filing, that could be a violation of insider trading laws. Neither Directv or the sources want to get into legal trouble.


----------



## wavemaster

uncrules said:


> I wonder if the leaks that are coming from within Directv saying that D12 is fine may not be truthful (I'm not impugning Tom or Doug, they're just reporting what they've been told). My thinking is if info about D12 having problems was leaked before an SEC filing, that could be a violation of insider trading laws. Neither Directv or the sources want to get into legal trouble.


Unfortunately, the same would hold true by saying it was fine.....


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Going as planned was based on the *ONE* plan people had available to them which was:
> 
> 1) Launch on Dec. 29
> 2) Park at 76 and test
> 3) Move to 103 by May 5th.
> 
> That is the only plan that has EVER been out there. Period. If you could show me another plan that DirecTV published that stated anything OTHER than that - I'd be happy to help. But all the conspiracy theorists have is "The website said this..." Whatever. You're right, the website is more accurate than an FCC filing. :sure:
> 
> *I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING REGARDING THE HEALTH OF D12. MY BEEF HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE WITH THIS PRESUMED ASSUMPTION THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG BECAUSE AN INTERN POSTED APRIL ON A WEBSITE. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMETHING IS WRONG. IT IS EQUALLY POSSIBLE THAT 1000 OTHER THINGS ARE GOING ON. I DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. I BASE MY ASSUMPTIONS ON FCC FILINGS AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROVEN TO UNDERSTAND THIS AND HAVE CONTACTS (SIXTO/LAMELEFTY/DOUG/TOM/STUART).*
> 
> Ok - I'm done snapping for the day. I'll go back to having some fun after this post...


Worth quoting in its entirety for truth. :up:


----------



## smiddy

Cool-aid here!


----------



## wavemaster

BudShark said:


> Going as planned was based on the *ONE* plan people had available to them which was:
> 
> 1) Launch on Dec. 29
> 2) Park at 76 and test
> 3) Move to 103 by May 5th.
> 
> That is the only plan that has EVER been out there. Period. .


Well the PLAN for D12 was to be a ground spare for D10 and D11. Do you remember that?

Then the PLAN was to increase the HD offering b4 the end of the year (2009). Then after multiple delays in the launch portion the PLAN was to have new HD first quarter. How soon we forget.


----------



## BudShark

smiddy said:


> Cool-aid here!


Grape, Strawberry, or Suicide???


----------



## PkDog

Rikinky said:


> I'm sticking with my first theory: Ok I figured out why it's taking so long to get D12 operational. The powers that be are constructing D12 to be able to resist the solar flares that are going to take place on December 21, 2012, that will result in the end of the world, and the good news is after the construction of this satellite we will all be able to watch the end of the world in 3D HD from our living rooms and Directv will exclusively be the only provider to bring all the action live!
> :beatdeadhorse:


And I am still sticking with my plan: we have a party to go to that night so I will be recording the end of the world show and I will watch it the next day when I get some free time.


----------



## tcusta00

wavemaster said:


> Well the PLAN for D12 was to be a ground spare for D10 and D11. Do you remember that?
> 
> Then the PLAN was to increase the HD offering b4 the end of the year (2009). Then after multiple delays in the launch portion the PLAN was to have new HD first quarter. How soon we forget.


Plans get changed. What's your point, exactly?

Why are you people getting so damn agitated about a satellite that's going to bring you some more TV? Holy crap, go home and hug your families. It's going to go live soon. Or it's not. Are any of our lives going to change because of this?

All us "fanboys" are saying is that no one here truly knows the state of D12, so why speculate and point fingers at each other over the unknown? Relax, you'll live longer. :nono:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

uncrules said:


> My thinking is if info about D12 having problems was leaked before an SEC filing, that could be a violation of insider trading laws. Neither Directv or the sources want to get into legal trouble.


While I won't pipe in on the status of D12, because honestly, not my division or responsibility....

I will comment on this last part: I know EXACTLY the people that Doug, Stuart, and the other mods are talking to.

And I can guarantee 100%, that those sources are reliable and understand COMPLETELY the law and SEC regulations.


----------



## BudShark

wavemaster said:


> How soon we forget.


Just keep swimming, just keep swimming...


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> Just keep swimming, just keep swimming...


Do you speak Whale? I wish I spoke Whale.


----------



## wavemaster

tcusta00 said:


> Plans get changed. What's your point, exactly?
> 
> Why are you people getting so damn agitated about a satellite that's going to bring you some more TV? Holy crap, go home and hug your families. It's going to go live soon. Or it's not. Are any of our lives going to change because of this?
> 
> All us "fanboys" are saying is that no one here truly knows the state of D12, so why speculate and point fingers at each other over the unknown? Relax, you'll live longer. :nono:


Touche'

Why are you people getting so damn agitated about people questioning whats going on? Holy crap, go home and hug your families. It's going to go live soon. Or it's not. Are any of our lives going to change because of this?


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

DTV: Start drift to 103 D12
D12: I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21824&stc=1&d=1271422422


----------



## nd bronco fan

Earl Bonovich said:


> I will comment on this last part:  I know EXACTLY the people that Doug, Stuart, and the other mods are talking to.
> 
> And I can guarantee 100%, that those sources are reliable and understand COMPLETELY the law and SEC regulations.


Sounds to me like a paperwork issue and D12 is just hanging out waiting to move, kinda what most of us figured.


----------



## uncrules

Earl Bonovich said:


> While I won't pipe in on the status of D12, because honestly, not my division or responsibility....
> 
> I will comment on this last part: I know EXACTLY the people that Doug, Stuart, and the other mods are talking to.
> 
> And I can guarantee 100%, that those sources are reliable and understand COMPLETELY the law and SEC regulations.


Thanks for the comment Earl.


----------



## tcusta00

wavemaster said:


> Touche'
> 
> Why are you people getting so damn agitated about people questioning whats going on? Holy crap, go home and hug your families. It's going to go live soon. Or it's not. Are any of our lives going to change because of this?


I'm not getting agitated. I'm laughing at you.


----------



## Hdhead

Wish the same could be said about D12.........

http://www.marketintelligencecenter.com/articles/1088104


----------



## BudShark

nd bronco fan said:


> Sounds to me like a paperwork issue and D12 is just hanging out waiting to move, kinda what most of us figured.


Lets not assume much of anything which has been the point all along. (I think Earl was referencing SEC and financial laws related to disclosure - not laws related to movement of D12)

D12 is sitting at 76, and an STA for ground control of drifting to 103 by 5/7 has been approved. An STA for movement from 76 to 103 of the bird is "pending", and 3 STAs for additional testing at 76 were filed yesterday and are not approved.

Those are the facts.

The rumors are:
1) Doug/Tom/Stuart have heard from DirecTV contacts who say the bird is fine
2) The website said April and now doesn't.
3) Vader says he has an unspecified contact who says the bird is NOT fine.

Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Earl Bonovich said:


> While I won't pipe in on the status of D12, because honestly, not my division or responsibility....
> 
> I will comment on this last part: I know EXACTLY the people that Doug, Stuart, and the other mods are talking to.
> 
> And I can guarantee 100%, that those sources are reliable and understand COMPLETELY the law and SEC regulations.


That's more than good enough for the majority of us to understand.

Then again...you may have to get a notary to sign off on that for a couple of naysayers.


----------



## I WANT MORE

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.
> 
> SF


----------



## nd bronco fan

BudShark said:


> D12 is sitting at 76, and an STA for ground control of drifting to 103 by 5/7 has been approved. An STA for movement from 76 to 103 of the bird is "pending", and 3 STAs for additional testing at 76 were filed yesterday and are not approved.


Why get ground control for approval of drift yet request extension for additional testing after that?


----------



## joed32

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's more than good enough for the majority of us to understand.
> 
> Then again...you may have to get a notary to sign off on that for a couple of naysayers.


He's just saying that they know the SEC regulations, nothing more.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

joed32 said:


> He's just saying that they know the SEC regulations, nothing more.


I guess you perhaps missed the part about the Mods being correct (which includes the status reports)....


----------



## Lt Disher

nd bronco fan said:


> Why get ground control for approval or drift yet request extension for additional testing after that?


My thought on this is that they don't want to let any approvals lapse. They would prefer to just get extensions rather than have to file for a completely new approval. The drift approval was coming to an end and so they extended it. The testing extension is now coming to an end and they are requesting another extension.

I don't know if it is harder to file for a 'new' approval or just get an extension.


----------



## wavemaster

nd bronco fan said:


> Why get ground control for approval of drift yet request extension for additional testing after that?


Because it is the plan.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's more than good enough for the majority of us to understand.
> 
> Then again...you may have to get a notary to sign off on that for a couple of naysayers.


...and engraved in granite by President Obama, delivered to their house by Ed McMahon, and all on a live video feed on every channel DirecTV carries...I'm just sayin' 

Although, I do find it a little troubling that they are requesting more testing time. I still don't think it's "Dead Jim", but I'm wondering what this next round of testing is about.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll know soon enough. They can't keep asking for extensions without, sooner or later, having to explain why. Until then I'm gonna stay positive and keep reading and waiting. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

nd bronco fan said:


> Why get ground control for approval of drift yet request extension for additional testing after that?


I would think they'd want approval so that when they're ready they can just go.

I think it also shows that they expect to do the move...which is a good sign.

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> Lets not assume much of anything which has been the point all along. (I think Earl was referencing SEC and financial laws related to disclosure - not laws related to movement of D12)
> 
> D12 is sitting at 76, and an STA for ground control of drifting to 103 by 5/7 has been approved. An STA for movement from 76 to 103 of the bird is "pending", and 3 STAs for additional testing at 76 were filed yesterday and are not approved.
> 
> Those are the facts.
> 
> The rumors are:
> 1) Doug/Tom/Stuart have heard from DirecTV contacts who say the bird is fine
> 2) The website said April and now doesn't.
> 3) Vader says he has an unspecified contact who says the bird is NOT fine.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.


D12 will not be on time? Everthing else will be speculation, cannot be conclusion at this time.


----------



## Hoosier205

My children whine less...

We are not that far removed from a time when we waited patiently for our jumbo C-band dishes to move from one sat to another. D12 will be available soon enough.


----------



## joed32

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess you perhaps missed the part about the Mods being correct (which includes the status reports)....


 Originally Posted by Earl Bonovich View Post
While I won't pipe in on the status of D12, because honestly, not my division or responsibility....

I will comment on this last part: I know EXACTLY the people that Doug, Stuart, and the other mods are talking to.

And I can guarantee 100%, that those sources are reliable and understand COMPLETELY the law and SEC regulations.

I just re-read and I don't see anything about "correct", maybe we are referring to different statements. He does say that the sources are reliable though.


----------



## tcusta00

Hoosier205 said:


> My children whine less...


!rolling Nice.


----------



## nd bronco fan

Lt Disher said:


> My thought on this is that they don't want to let any approvals lapse. They would prefer to just get extensions rather than have to file for a completely new approval. The drift approval was coming to an end and so they extended it. The testing extension is now coming to an end and they are requesting another extension.
> 
> I don't know if it is harder to file for a 'new' approval or just get an extension.


Yeah thats probably the reasoning.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

joed32 said:


> I just re-read and I don't see anything about "correct", maybe we are referring to different statements. He does say that the sources are reliable though.


Doesn't the "reliable" part imply truthfulness? Which means to me that they are providing info that as accurate as what they currently have. IMO, it also means they are in a position to know. Otherwise why make the statement at all.

It's obvious to me that Earl meant that the info came from people who would know the right answer and would convey it truthfully. Everything else here is speculation.

Mike


----------



## TDK1044

I think we can only conclude that there is a problem with D12 if it fails to complete its drift by 05/07.


----------



## joed32

MicroBeta said:


> Doesn't the "reliable" part imply truthfulness? Which means to me that they are providing info that as accurate as what they currently have. IMO, it also means they are in a position to know. Otherwise why make the statement at all.
> 
> It's obvious to me that Earl meant that the info came from people who would know the right answer and would convey it truthfully. Everything else here is speculation.
> 
> Mike


I believe them but they haven't said anything since this latest development.


----------



## BudShark

TDK1044 said:


> I think we can only conclude that there is a problem with D12 if it fails to complete its drift by 05/07.


I think that would be a mistake.

For example: We can only conclude that Boeing 747s all have technical issues because a single one did not achieve its planned arrival in London yesterday.

While its possible that Boeing grounded all 747s, it fails to take into account the 1000 other things that have nothing to do with Boeing 747s such as volcanic eruptions.


----------



## LameLefty

TDK1044 said:


> I think we can only conclude that there is a problem with D12 if it fails to complete its drift by 05/07.


Not at all. Could be a problem with the uplink tests. Could be that the contract carriage arrangements have financial clauses which make taking the opportunity to test transponder and signal performance more advantageous than going "live" at the earliest opportunity, could be that the large solar CME yesterday made moving the satellite more risky than they wanted, could be the Empire's invasion force came out of hyperdrive too close to the system . . . no one outside of the Boeing/Directv inner circle really knows one way or another.

My family's healthy, I have 6 DVR's worth of stuff to watch and I can pay my bills. Things could be worse.


----------



## TDK1044

It could be any number of things or it could be nothing at all. What's the point of speculating? Wait a few weeks and find out.


----------



## wavemaster

Hoosier205 said:


> My children whine less...


I have kids.

All I can say is you are a very fortunate individual.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Could just be that they needed one more day. Could be anything. Could be aliens. Could be ripples in the time-space continuum. One thing is for sure, and that's that one thing is for sure.


----------



## Piratefan98




----------



## dem

Stuart Sweet said:


> Could be ripples in the time-space continuum.


Aha! I was just wondering how you posted the news of the latest extension in a thread called *Headlines for 4/19/2010* when it's only 4/16...


----------



## CTJon

As always Earl's word is good enough for me. If the people who do know are fooling with our unofficial contacts then it is a real shame and unworthy of any company.


----------



## TDK1044

So many Drama Queens. So little Drama!


----------



## Todd H

Stuart Sweet said:


> Could be aliens.


OMG!!! I bet it crashed into a mothership just like in Independence Day!!! I'd better go find my Macbook so I can hack into the mothership, inject a computer virus, and disable their shields.


----------



## Rikinky

And I laughed when I was told September before new HD Channels were coming and the new satellite would be operational......:sure:


----------



## thelucky1

Next week is the Revolution ... DIRECTV's all-dealer conference, a gathering of about 2,000 dealers plus DIRECTV honchos, training sessions, demos and the like. It's happening at the Hilton Anatole in Dallas, April 19-21. The highlight of the meeting will likely be a session with new CEO Mike White on Wednesday morning.• 

Wonder if any good news will leak out from this Revolution?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

dem said:


> Aha! I was just wondering how you posted the news of the latest extension in a thread called *Headlines for 4/19/2010* when it's only 4/16...


Don't read anything into it. It's still early on the West Coast.


----------



## swans

smiddy said:


> Cool-aid here!


You guys are doing shots! I guess I'm in.:grin:


----------



## hilmar2k

I know what happened to it:


----------



## BudShark

Stuart Sweet said:


> Don't read anything into it. It's still early on the West Coast.


I don't think its been approved yet either... just requested.


----------



## newsbreaker

This is (IIRC) my first (and only) post in this thread. I've been enjoying following the situation, but some of you need to relax.

DTV's counsel, either inside or outside, have certain responsibilities. The fact that the STA extension for "testing" was filed isn't indicative of anything other than the fact that some lawyers are doing their jobs. They can't allow the D12 filings to lapse, even if they have done so in the past.

Understand a situation that goes down like this: Lawyer looks at the calendar, realizes the testing approval will expire this weekend, makes a quick phone call to find out if D12 will start the drift by then, learns that it won't be quite ready yet, and then files the extension. That could mean the drift won't start for another month, but it's just as likely that it could mean the drift will start 2 days into the new 30 day period.

If you believe that something is wrong with D12 then you have to believe that fact has been known to DTV for at least a few weeks, maybe longer. Hence, if people with reliable sources have been telling you recently (and they have) that everything is fine and moving ahead properly then you should believe them. They are more committed to providing information than they probably should be - if I were the one with reliable sources, and I chose to provide the information those sources were giving me publicly only to _constantly_ see people doubt, ignore, mischaracterize, dissect and ignore it because they think they can "read the tea leaves"...well, I'd stop giving those people much of anything. If they can't respect the fact that someone with *actual* knowledge is trying to help them, then screw 'em. They deserve to sit and wonder in silence.


----------



## syphix

Piratefan98 said:


>


More like:


----------



## Rikinky

syphix said:


> More like:


!rolling


----------



## TDK1044

newsbreaker said:


> This is (IIRC) my first (and only) post in this thread. I've been enjoying following the situation, but some of you need to relax.
> 
> DTV's counsel, either inside or outside, have certain responsibilities. The fact that the STA extension for "testing" was filed isn't indicative of anything other than the fact that some lawyers are doing their jobs. They can't allow the D12 filings to lapse, even if they have done so in the past.
> 
> Understand a situation that goes down like this: Lawyer looks at the calendar, realizes the testing approval will expire this weekend, makes a quick phone call to find out if D12 will start the drift by then, learns that it won't be quite ready yet, and then files the extension. That could mean the drift won't start for another month, but it's just as likely that it could mean the drift will start 2 days into the new 30 day period.
> 
> If you believe that something is wrong with D12 then you have to believe that fact has been known to DTV for at least a few weeks, maybe longer. Hence, if people with reliable sources have been telling you recently (and they have) that everything is fine and moving ahead properly then you should believe them. They are more committed to providing information than they probably should be - if I were the one with reliable sources, and I chose to provide the information those sources were giving me publicly only to _constantly_ see people doubt, ignore, mischaracterize, dissect and ignore it because they think they can "read the tea leaves"...well, I'd stop giving those people much of anything. If they can't respect the fact that someone with *actual* knowledge is trying to help them, then screw 'em. They deserve to sit and wonder in silence.


Common sense. What a nice change in this thread.


----------



## Indiana627

Stuart Sweet said:


> Could just be that they needed one more day. Could be anything. Could be aliens. Could be ripples in the time-space continuum. One thing is for sure, and that's that one thing is for sure.


I'm not liking the fact that you removed the "D12 is fine" line from your signature.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Maybe I just did that to scare people.


----------



## BudShark

Indiana627 said:


> I'm not liking the fact that you removed the "D12 is fine" line from your signature.


:lol:

Would you prefer he put Telesat is fine back in??? He's been changing it about every 8 hours. One could read the removal of Chicken Little to indicate the sky was falling and no longer is too... !rolling


----------



## trdrjeff

It's obvious the testing is not what DTV anticipated. The numbers are all wrong so they are double and triple testing the numbers. It's just not possible that D12 would have 150% the capacity it was designed for!!


----------



## Groundhog45




----------



## Todd H




----------



## loudo

TDK1044 said:


> I think we can only conclude that there is a problem with D12 if it fails to complete its drift by 05/07.


To me it would mean that maybe more testing is needed or desired.


----------



## barryb

<--- my koi is keeping an eye on things now, so no need to worry.


----------



## Lt Disher

TDK1044 said:


> I think we can only conclude that there is a problem with D12 if it fails to complete its drift by 05/07.


Logically, I think the only thing that could be concluded is that it is not going as planned in their press release. (That is where you got the 5/7 date, correct?) I don't think you could conclude necessarily that there is a problem with D12. Other conclusions could be drawn.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think it's premature and maybe even unwarranted to draw any conclusions at all right now.


----------



## evan_s

I'm going to stick with D12 being largely fine and that this is just another example of DirecTV being comfortable with their position and not in as much of hurry to get the sat in place and transmitting HD channels as we are. They are obviously missing some channels that some people would really like but it's not like they are being badly beaten by any of their competition at this point. The sat and the channels can wait a couple extra weeks. They are in a position to take their time and do it right rather than try to rush as much as possible to get it there quickly. This isn't a bad thing.


----------



## Doug Brott

syphix said:


> I worry about the stability of this thread for another 30 days more than I worry about the stability of D12.


I'm pretty confident this thread will explode over the next 30 days.


----------



## Draconis

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think it's premature and maybe even unwarranted to draw any conclusions at all right now.


That sums it up nicely. I'm just waiting to see what happens.


----------



## Doug Brott

uncrules said:


> I wonder if the leaks that are coming from within Directv saying that D12 is fine may not be truthful (I'm not impugning Tom or Doug, they're just reporting what they've been told). My thinking is if info about D12 having problems was leaked before an SEC filing, that could be a violation of insider trading laws. Neither Directv or the sources want to get into legal trouble.


D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## MartyS

thelucky1 said:


> Next week is the Revolution ... DIRECTV's all-dealer conference, a gathering of about 2,000 dealers plus DIRECTV honchos, training sessions, demos and the like. It's happening at the Hilton Anatole in Dallas, April 19-21. The highlight of the meeting will likely be a session with new CEO Mike White on Wednesday morning.•
> 
> Wonder if any good news will leak out from this Revolution?


THe way it's going it looks like a bunch of folks from here (the conspiracy theorists) are going to have a Tea Party at the all dealer conference. :lol: :lol:


----------



## MartyS

syphix said:


> More like:


!Devil_lol:allthumbs


----------



## Hdhead

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think it's premature and maybe even unwarranted to draw any conclusions at all right now.


Backtracking are we.......


----------



## Fog627

I have a question&#8230;is D12 a prerequisite for DirecTV providing the World Cup in 3D on the newly announced ESPN 3D? The first game is on June 10.

(See press release: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=4630001)

Is this (a) insurance that the D12 will be in place and operational by June 10 or (b) possibly part of the delay because of testing or (c) not related to the delay?

My understanding is that a 3D feed takes twice the bandwidth of HD.


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


> I'm pretty confident this thread will explode over the next 30 days.


I know the thread keeps drifting.


----------



## jefbal99

Fog627 said:


> I have a question&#8230;is D12 a prerequisite for DirecTV providing the World Cup in 3D on the newly announced ESPN 3D? The first game is on June 10.
> 
> (See press release: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=4630001)
> 
> Is this (a) insurance that the D12 will be in place and operational by June 10 or (b) possibly part of the delay because of testing or (c) not related to the delay?
> 
> My understanding is that a 3D feed takes twice the bandwidth of HD.


There are enough PPV HD slots that they could be utilized if something catastrophic happens to D12


----------



## BudShark

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


You should put that in your signature so people can be reminded regularly...

!rolling


----------



## Ed Campbell

Leaks, schmeaks.

Nothing has showed up on Google. Nothing has showed up in stock price activity.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hdhead said:


> Backtracking are we.......


Hardly. In fact I was recently reminded by a very knowledgeable individual that D12 is still on schedule. I don't see anything compelling here that changes that point of view.


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine an*d* will b*e* on service as pl*a*nne*d*


I knew it!


----------



## Lord Vader

BudShark said:


> Lets not assume much of anything which has been the point all along. (I think Earl was referencing SEC and financial laws related to disclosure - not laws related to movement of D12)
> 
> D12 is sitting at 76, and an STA for ground control of drifting to 103 by 5/7 has been approved. An STA for movement from 76 to 103 of the bird is "pending", and 3 STAs for additional testing at 76 were filed yesterday and are not approved.
> 
> Those are the facts.
> 
> The rumors are:
> 1) Doug/Tom/Stuart have heard from DirecTV contacts who say the bird is fine
> 2) The website said April and now doesn't.
> 3) Vader says he has an unspecified contact who says the bird is NOT fine.
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.


At that time, it appeared it wasn't completely "fine," but after briefly chatting with my friend lately, I sensed that things were "better," whatever that means in terms of degree.I posited a theory to him to see if this was possible (but he neither confirmed or denied it--damn lawyer-like of him)...Could DirecTV keep it at 76* this long so that most of the testing is completed, thereby meaning if/when it finally drifts to 103*, there won't be nearly as much testing needed at that time, thus allowing it to light up rather quickly?We all shall see...


----------



## slimoli

Doug Brott said:


> I'm pretty confident this thread will explode over the next 30 days.


You mean in a positive way, right ?


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh, in case anyone wanted to know what is really going on .. I recorded some audio of the latest turn of events:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW0_kTYvARc#t=0m53s


----------



## Rikinky

So who wants to speak at the Eulogy?


----------



## Doug Brott




----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> At that time, it appeared it wasn't completely "fine," but after briefly chatting with my friend lately, I sensed that things were "better," whatever that means in terms of degree.I posited a theory to him to see if this was possible (but he neither confirmed or denied it--damn lawyer-like of him)...Could DirecTV keep it at 76* this long so that most of the testing is completed, thereby meaning if/when it finally drifts to 103*, there won't be nearly as much testing needed at that time, thus allowing it to light up rather quickly?We all shall see...


Didn't D10 go live as soon as it got on station?

I know D11 did some additional testing at location though.

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

sigma1914 said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> 
> D12 is fine an*d* will b*e* on service as pl*a*nne*d*
> 
> 
> 
> I knew it!
Click to expand...

I think you need to go back to playing your Beatles records backwards.


----------



## sigma1914

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think you need to go back to playing your Beatles records backwards.


After I finish Dark Side of the Moon with Wizard of Oz muted.


----------



## Hdhead

Lord Vader said:


> At that time, it appeared it wasn't completely "fine," but after briefly chatting with my friend lately, I sensed that things were "better," whatever that means in terms of degree.


Sounds like the lawyers had whipping session with him.:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.
> 
> SF


I admit, I was quiet at 2am my time. And might be abnormal for me. 

It was because I have a cold and was actually in bed early last nite. Hope you'll forgive me. 

(And I'm feeling better today. I hope I'm ready for pizza tonight.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rikinky

Showing Times will be announced soon.:crying_sa:crying:


----------



## Alan Gordon

I WANT MORE:

You need to enter your avatar in the avatar contest:

"The Sky Is Falling" - avatar contest

~Alan


----------



## BudShark

Lord Vader said:


> At that time, it appeared it wasn't completely "fine," but after briefly chatting with my friend lately, I sensed that things were "better," whatever that means in terms of degree.I posited a theory to him to see if this was possible (but he neither confirmed or denied it--damn lawyer-like of him)...Could DirecTV keep it at 76* this long so that most of the testing is completed, thereby meaning if/when it finally drifts to 103*, there won't be nearly as much testing needed at that time, thus allowing it to light up rather quickly?We all shall see...


Wait wait wait...

So you're saying despite the filing of an STA extension yesterday, D12 appears to currently be fine from your source as well? Wouldn't this mean we have exactly *ZERO* sources indicating anything is wrong with D12? 

This cannot be... It just cannot be... Ok, everyone, we need to find something to indicate D12 is not healthy otherwise there won't be any reason to speculate that D12 is not healthy... Scour the web, shake down your sources, find something!

!rolling :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, in case anyone wanted to know what is really going on .. I recorded some audio of the latest turn of events:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW0_kTYvARc#t=0m53s


I applaud the effort, but I was really hoping for a rickroll


----------



## Stuart Sweet




----------



## Tom Robertson

As for some definitions:

*Dead* - we know D12 is not dead. They wouldn't STA a truly dead satellite. 
*SEC* - the people who govern how quickly DIRECTV and Boeing would have to report D12 if it were dead. Since it ain't declared dead and the SEC hasn't been notified, it ain't dead. (See *Dead* above.)
*Sources* - I got some good ones. Most of you know who they are. Because of *SEC* rules, they can't talk directly to us here. And they sometimes tell us things we can't say yet. (We actually sometimes, in theory, be held within some SEC rules by the way. We know that too.)
*Fine* - nebulous term. Definitely not dead, but perhaps not *Perfect*. Certainly healthy enough to not warrant a Drs. note to the SEC principal...
*Plan* - An endeavor by people to work together toward a goal, so often used by fools to beat up the good, well-intended people working toward the goal. Plans often include provisions for things going better than expected and going not quite as well as expected. And still be *Fine*. 
*Soon* - relative term. Your relatives never agree on what soon is; just ask your kids.   "No we're not there yet, soon!" 
*Perfect* - No one knows. It ain't never, ever happened yet. 

As to what is the "full, complete, at this instant status"? No one knows. Everyone has but a slice of the data from a moment in time.

The last slice I got indicated Fine and Soon.

I like the concept that this was an automatic triggered event. Or that they just want to extend a day or two. That fits with Fine and Soon.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

SWORDFISH said:


> The *"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"* crowd is very quiet today.


Has anything they have said so far really helped? After a while, you're just herding cats.



jefbal99 said:


> There are enough PPV HD slots that they could be utilized if something catastrophic happens to D12


Which use would make DirecTV more money? Somehow DirecTV has survived without the certain channels some people want (channels that are expected to magically appear when D12 reaches it's home slot). "I never watch PPV" people aside, somebody is watching that content - otherwise it wouldn't be there. The only reasons to pull PPV would be for contractual obligations (eg: a provider requiring carriage of a HD channel by a certain date) or if the channel made them more money than the current use.

130 HD channels is 130 HD channels ... marketing doesn't care if they are the channels desired by some in this thread or all PPV, the claim lives on. What benefit would pulling a PPV channel and adding "CNN Headline News in HD" be? The channel count doesn't change and the revenue stream from charging people for watching a few hours of content off of a PPV channel is lost.



Stuart Sweet said:


> I think you need to go back to playing your Beatles records backwards.


Hey, the Pope just started allowing for them to be played forwards, don't get too far ahead.


----------



## oldfantom

Tom Robertson said:


> As for some definitions:
> 
> *Dead* - we know D12 is not dead. They wouldn't STA a truly dead satellite.
> *SEC* - the people who govern how quickly DIRECTV and Boeing would have to report D12 if it were dead. Since it ain't declared dead and the SEC hasn't been notified, it ain't dead. (See *Dead* above.)
> *Sources* - I got some good ones. Most of you know who they are. Because of *SEC* rules, they can't talk directly to us here. And they sometimes tell us things we can't say yet. (We actually sometimes, in theory, be held within some SEC rules by the way. We know that too.)
> *Fine* - nebulous term. Definitely not dead, but perhaps not *Perfect*. Certainly healthy enough to not warrant a Drs. note to the SEC principal...
> *Plan* - An endeavor by people to work together toward a goal, so often used by fools to beat up the good, well-intended people working toward the goal. Plans often include provisions for things going better than expected and going not quite as well as expected. And still be *Fine*.
> *Soon* - relative term. Your relatives never agree on what soon is; just ask your kids.   "No we're not there yet, soon!"
> *Perfect* - No one knows. It ain't never, ever happened yet.
> 
> As to what is the "full, complete, at this instant status"? No one knows. Everyone has but a slice of the data from a moment in time.
> 
> The last slice I got indicated Fine and Soon.
> 
> I like the concept that this was an automatic triggered event. Or that they just want to extend a day or two. That fits with Fine and Soon.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


So we should panic? Really, you have to be clear with your message.


----------



## jefbal99

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, in case anyone wanted to know what is really going on .. I recorded some audio of the latest turn of events:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW0_kTYvARc#t=0m53s


[YOUTUBEHD]KGultrg7l0I[/YOUTUBEHD]

An excellent live version of this


----------



## Stuart Sweet




----------



## Jon J

Everything is fine. Trust me.


----------



## David MacLeod

wonder if recent volcanic eruptions have caused some comm disruptions and they are waiting for that to subside.


----------



## ddobson

Who are they kidding. I think we all know what that bright flash in the midwestern sky was yesterday! That is why the law suits were dropped over the commercials...

I'm kidding... I think


----------



## Alan Gordon

David MacLeod said:


> wonder if recent volcanic eruptions have caused some comm disruptions and they are waiting for that to subside.


That thought occurred to me this morning as well...

~Alan


----------



## sdirv

flapperdink said:


> the earth station being an issue i would have to disagree with based on the letter filed by D* to the FCC...they clearly state the STA extension would benefit the "...public interest by allowing DIRECTV to complete testing of the DIRECTV 12 satellite..."
> 
> the aggressive testing schedule may be a plausible argument, but i find it hard to believe that the schedule would be aggressive given the history Boeing has in satellite deployment.


And what they "clearly state" is so much boiler plate, standard language on government forms/applications.

Folks in this group should be in perfect physical condition with all the exercise they get running amok, jumping to conclusions.......:lol:

So.......unless official "word" is given otherwise, all I personally can "assume" is that.....

D* had a STA for testing, they applied for a STA to drift, FCC so far hasn't approved it (as far as I know), the current STA expires on Sunday, so...(following procedures) they filed an application for a second STA for testing.

Would LOVE to see FFC approve the STA to drift sometime this afternoon, and if they approve the second STA to test instead <shrug>, I'll go outside to mow my lawn and tomorrow I'll be going for a motorcycle ride and watching/listening to George Thorogood and the Destroyers in concert out at Cyclefest in Scottsdale.


----------



## Curtis0620

If something was seriously wrong, would they not have requested more that 30 days last time?


----------



## Tom Robertson

David MacLeod said:


> wonder if recent volcanic eruptions have caused some comm disruptions and they are waiting for that to subside.


Interesting thought. Since the volcano spew is blowing east away from us, I don't think it would be causing trouble yet. Nor do I think DIRECTV would hang at 76° just to find out. So I don't think this has merit today.

That said, I still think it is an interesting thought. What are the effects on satellite communications in Europe? What would they be here if the volcano was more local?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mhayes70

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, in case anyone wanted to know what is really going on .. I recorded some audio of the latest turn of events:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW0_kTYvARc#t=0m53s


:lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I was not aware that volcanic eruptions could reach all the way to GSO. I would think an eruption that big would be more of a problem for the planet than just HD channel expansion.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Curtis0620 said:


> If something was seriously wrong, would they not have requested more that 30 days last time?


While I like the thinking, I temper with the suspicion that 30 days is the norm and to request longer is much harder.


----------



## ddobson

I'm certainly not a scientist but common sense would tell me that the ash can't extend beyond the atmosphere. But common sense has fooled me before making it uncommon sense or common non-sense.


----------



## Curtis0620

Tom Robertson said:


> While I like the thinking, I temper with the suspicion that 30 days is the norm and to request longer is much harder.


Then, they would not have waited until the last minute to ask for 30 more days.


----------



## Scott Corbett

I am suspending again.


----------



## Rikinky

Any volunteer Paubearer's D12 is pretty heavy.... Just Sayin


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think you need to go back to playing your Beatles records backwards.


Lies, lies, lies!!!!!

*I* buried Paul!!!!

I was six years old when I did it, but it was MEEEEEE!!!!!!


----------



## David MacLeod

lot of people in UK being warned that the ash is affecting satellite comms, not sure how high/far its spread.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I took David MacLeod's post to consider the effects of ash in the atmosphere affecting the testing below. I think we would have heard about the effects of ash flying up high enough to affect the international space station, GPS satellites, etc. long before it would get to GSO satellites. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## slimoli

Rikinky said:


> Any volunteer Paubearer's D12 is pretty heavy.... Just Sayin


The word is pallbearer.:sure:


----------



## LameLefty

Volcanic ash can't reach orbit, but it can certainly interfere with ground equipment and potentially cause problems with signal transmissions. That said, Iceland is east of the CONUS and the plume is flowing eastward. Shouldn't matter for our purposes.

However, the other day there was a pretty spectacular CME (coronal mass ejection) from the sun, which is expected to glance by the earth in the next day or two. It's quite possible prudent spacecraft operators want to avoid any potential damage or interference with operations.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Feldman.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> I was not aware that volcanic eruptions could reach all the way to GSO. I would think an eruption that big would be more of a problem for the planet than just HD channel expansion.


Indeed! Though reading this thread, you might think HD channel expansion is more important.

Also, the ash would not reach to GSO, but the issue was whether or not it might cause a blocking of the signal. However, Tom is correct about it blowing AWAY from us... so the signal should be fine. I wasn't thinking about how the satellite would no longer be communicating with foreign locations.

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

"Time keeps on slippin, slippin, slippin, into the Future"
someday we will be happy.


----------



## BWELL316

Exclusive Live Photo of D12!

http://www.cmbitter.com/2010/04/exclusive-photo-of-directv-satellite.html

Does anyone have a sonic screwdriver?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Many people have said I have "Marty Feldman" eyes...


----------



## Alan Gordon

BWELL316 said:


> Does anyone have a sonic screwdriver?


:flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
I'm already *TICKED* I'm forced to watch the premiere of "Doctor Who" this weekend in SD. Do NOT rub it in! 

:flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
~Alan


----------



## Lord Vader

Hdhead said:


> Sounds like the lawyers had whipping session with him.:lol:


More like he was trying to not be so direct and specific, or he was just covering his proverbial arse.


----------



## BWELL316

Alan Gordon said:


> :flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
> I'm already *TICKED* I'm forced to watch the premiere of "Doctor Who" this weekend in SD. Do NOT rub it in!
> 
> :flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
> ~Alan


You are preaching to the choir. That's the biggest reason I check this thread multiple times a day.


----------



## jefbal99

curt8403 said:


> "Time keeps on slippin, slippin, slippin, into the Future"
> someday we will be happy.


slow day at the office...


----------



## mobandit

jefbal99 said:


> slow day at the office...


One of my all time favorites!


----------



## BudShark

BWELL316 said:


> You are preaching to the choir. That's the biggest reason I check this thread multiple times a day.


:lol: If you've been expecting D12 to provide you with new HD this weekend - well, we probably need to have an offline discussion about your expectations and reality.


----------



## Alan Gordon

BWELL316 said:


> You are preaching to the choir. That's the biggest reason I check this thread multiple times a day.





BudShark said:


> :lol: If you've been expecting D12 to provide you with new HD this weekend - well, we probably need to have an offline discussion about your expectations and reality.


I can't speak for BWELL316, but a few months ago, I did expect to have BBC America in HD by now.

Now, I'm just waiting in hope that I will at least get to see the last few episodes of the season in HD. Of course, I will be buying the eventual Blu-ray release of the season, so I'll eventually get to see it in HD.

~Alan


----------



## TDK1044

Alan Gordon said:


> :flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
> I'm already *TICKED* I'm forced to watch the premiere of "Doctor Who" this weekend in SD. Do NOT rub it in!
> 
> :flaiming:new_cussi:flaiming:new_cussi​
> ~Alan


Doctor Who.....I haven't seen that since Tom Baker was the Doctor! Hey, if the new one is around, have him drop by D12 and give it a kick!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok, got a full update this morning from another source confirming another conspiracy theory:

The *BS* package definitely is not working properly. Since the Shuttle Fleet is almost out of service, D12 is going to replace one of the key shuttle services. Obviously since D12 will be at GSO heights and orbit, there is a lot of tinkering going on to get things just right.

Jerry was quite clear about this. How else can you 'splain the sudden rash of earthquakes since D12 was launched? The volcano was purely a miscalculation of D12's power. It was really targeted as a tsunami in the Atlantic. Jerry didn't say where it was targeted precisely, tho a few months ago he mentioned cigar prices on the rise... He says so many things... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Athlon646464

I have noticed an increase in seismic activity recently, as well as some major volcanic eruptions.

Also, I just finished reading all 5,000+ posts in this thread.

As a result I have decided to cancel my order for a D12. It seems they are broken. I will get another DVR instead.


----------



## Lord Vader

BudShark said:


> Wait wait wait...
> 
> So you're saying despite the filing of an STA extension yesterday, D12 appears to currently be fine from your source as well?


No, just better than before I inferred.


----------



## BWELL316

BudShark said:


> :lol: If you've been expecting D12 to provide you with new HD this weekend - well, we probably need to have an offline discussion about your expectations and reality.


I gave up on that pipe dream long ago, but I had hoped to have it by, say, the season finale in 12 weeks? I know there are more important things, but I didn't think I was asking for much.


----------



## bb37

Tom Robertson said:


> And I'm feeling better today. I hope I'm ready for pizza tonight.


Glad you are feeling better, Tom. So Friday night is Pizza Night at your house. It's Saturday night at my house. I usually spend the evening watching the home improvement shows I've DVRd during the day using the excellent signal I get from the existing DirecTV satellites. More HD would be nice, but I can't keep up with the stuff I DVR now.


----------



## BudShark

BWELL316 said:


> I gave up on that pipe dream long ago, but I had hoped to have it by, say, the season finale in 12 weeks? I know there are more important things, but I didn't think I was asking for much.


Ok. No problem. I forwarded your request to Jerry - he said you will get it beamed right into your house. And then he said, Hmm, I hope we have the power turned down by then.

*If this post makes no sense to you, please read Tom's above.
*If Tom's post makes no sense to you, Welcome to the SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info (Testing at 76°) thread. Things have gone awry and are no longer Nom-Ee-Null.


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> slow day at the office...


What the hell is Steve Miller doing playing a left-handed Strat upside down? :nono:


----------



## h4b1t

You can definitely tell the "Glass half empty" crowd from the "half full" in this thread. I'll continue hoping for the best, however i'll just note there's been several earthquakes and volcano's recently. anyone floated the idea that the D12 was actually taken over by the gov't to use as a space ark? if not then, FIRST!


----------



## curt8403

Newsflash: D12 Satellite found. Location below.


----------



## MartyS

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, got a full update this morning from another source confirming another conspiracy theory:
> 
> The *BS* package definitely is not working properly. Since the Shuttle Fleet is almost out of service, D12 is going to replace one of the key shuttle services. Obviously since D12 will be at GSO heights and orbit, there is a lot of tinkering going on to get things just right.
> 
> Jerry was quite clear about this. How else can you 'splain the sudden rash of earthquakes since D12 was launched? The volcano was purely a miscalculation of D12's power. It was really targeted as a tsunami in the Atlantic. Jerry didn't say where it was targeted precisely, tho a few months ago he mentioned cigar prices on the rise... He says so many things...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


And it's being closely monitored by our ace staff...










With a number of teams combing the area...


----------



## wmb

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, in case anyone wanted to know what is really going on .. I recorded some audio of the latest turn of events:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW0_kTYvARc#t=0m53s


I like the German version...


----------



## I WANT MORE

CME (coronal mass ejection)

I would love to comment on this but I better not..............


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Flibbertigibbet.


----------



## wavemaster

Stuart Sweet said:


> Flibbertigibbet.


Brain Cloud?

Did you get a second opinion?


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> What the hell is Steve Miller doing playing a left-handed Strat upside down? :nono:


OK... be nice...

So, its taken you 30+ years to notice? :lol:

(OK, that wasn't too nice. Hopefully, no one takes offense.)


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> OK... be nice...
> 
> So, its taken you 30+ years to notice? :lol:
> 
> (OK, that wasn't too nice. Hopefully, no one takes offense.)


I've never been a huge Steve Miller fan; I don't think I've ever seen that album cover before.

However, I HAVE seen examples of the first two Martin signature edition acoustic models, the 00-37KSM (curly koa with an Engelmann spruce top) and 00-37K2SM (curly koa top, back and sides). Absolutely stunning visually, and among the best fingerpicking models I've ever heard.


----------



## Talos4

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, got a full update this morning from another source confirming another conspiracy theory:
> 
> The *BS* package definitely is not working properly. Since the Shuttle Fleet is almost out of service, D12 is going to replace one of the key shuttle services. Obviously since D12 will be at GSO heights and orbit, there is a lot of tinkering going on to get things just right.
> 
> Jerry was quite clear about this. How else can you 'splain the sudden rash of earthquakes since D12 was launched? The volcano was purely a miscalculation of D12's power. It was really targeted as a tsunami in the Atlantic. Jerry didn't say where it was targeted precisely, tho a few months ago he mentioned cigar prices on the rise... He says so many things...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom












Never trusted the Vorlons anyway.


----------



## curt8403

we seem to be approaching the 6000 post mark.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> Feldman.


Donna, Tamara, Cory, or Marty? 

Personally, I prefer either of the first two.


----------



## dhines

anytime i want a good laugh, i come to this thread. goodness fellas, talk about speculation on top of speculation, based on speculation.

LOL

there is truly nothing more to know at this time . . . so just sit back, relax and enjoy the ride.

on a side note, much of this commentary reminds me of a child in the back seat asking (every 5 min) "are we there yet", knowing damn well it won't make us get there any faster

:hurah:


----------



## Milkman

Talos4 said:


> Never trusted the Vorlons anyway.


Species 8472 is causing problems with D12???


----------



## Retro

This is a Test, This is only a Test!










If this had been an actual emergency, you would've been informed of where to tune to in your area for instructions..

How many of you remember Captain Midnight?










John R. MacDougall (alias "Captain Midnight") is a electronics engineer & 
owner of MacDougall Electronics in Ocala, FL. In April of 1986, John sent the 
message: "Good Evening HBO from Captain Midnight. $12.95 a month? 
No Way! (Showtime/The Movie Channel beware.)" John was frustrated 
at the network who was over charging satellite customers, & hurting 
his business. Today, years later, John still ownes MacDougall 
Electronics, and is still selling & installing satellite dishes. This includes the 
mini-dish Digital systems, and the Full-Size C/Ku-Band Satellite dishes.


----------



## Jeremy W

5999 GET


----------



## Jeremy W

6000 GET!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Almost 6000 posts now...and only the first 2 really matter. 

BattleStar away. :lol:


----------



## curt8403

This may be the real reason that D12 is having issues.

We really had no idea who was driving (Up to this point)


----------



## nd bronco fan

Have these filings been posted yet, if so I apologize.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysFilings.do?ssid=-192934535&pgid=1


----------



## LameLefty

nd bronco fan said:


> Have these filings been posted yet, if so I apologize.
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysFilings.do?ssid=-192934535&pgid=1


Yep. Last night. They caused quite a panic among the more easily panicked in the crowd.


----------



## nd bronco fan

Sorry for reposting them then, its hard to sift through the garbage on here to find the pertinent info, I went back 5 pages and did not see it. Maybe missed it or did not go far enough.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> Yep. Last night. They caused quite a panic among the more easily panicked in the crowd.


They caused some panic among the people who aren't


----------



## Stuart Sweet




----------



## jefbal99

Retro said:


> This is a Test, This is only a Test!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this had been an actual emergency, you would've been informed of where to tune to in your area for instructions..
> 
> How many of you remember Captain Midnight?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John R. MacDougall (alias "Captain Midnight") is a electronics engineer &
> owner of MacDougall Electronics in Ocala, FL. In April of 1986, John sent the
> message: "Good Evening HBO from Captain Midnight. $12.95 a month?
> No Way! (Showtime/The Movie Channel beware.)" John was frustrated
> at the network who was over charging satellite customers, & hurting
> his business. Today, years later, John still ownes MacDougall
> Electronics, and is still selling & installing satellite dishes. This includes the
> mini-dish Digital systems, and the Full-Size C/Ku-Band Satellite dishes.


I've been waiting for somebody to bring this up  Golf Clap


----------



## wmb

I hate to go all technical on you, but all hands on deck... swirlie thing alert!


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> They caused some panic among the people who aren't


Panic away, then. The beach is lovely this time of year.


----------



## ironduke2010

LameLefty said:


> Yep. Last night. They caused quite a panic among the more easily panicked in the crowd.


well, i'm personally panicking because i had intended to sign up to directv prior to the world cup. directv has the best chance of eventually offering fox soccer channel HD, fox soccer plus HD, and goltv HD (in august), in addition to the extra Europa League and Champions League HD games not carried by the other channels, that only directv seems to offer.

dishnetwork is *already* broadcasting fox soccer channel HD, and will likely broadcast fox soccer plus HD soon, but they wont carry goltv HD (or goltv SD) and they don't have the extra Europa and Champions League games. however, dishnetwork is significantly less expensive at the moment.

the only reason i was holding out for directv was that it has the *potential* to carry all the HD soccer i want. given that it now looks like the D12 channels (which i'm hoping will include FSC HD and FSP HD) won't go online before the world cup in june, i'm leaning towards dish nework. lower price plus FSC HD gives it a huge advantage for my programming needs. if i'm going to sign a 24 month contract with early termination fees, i'd like to know what i'm getting beforehand....


----------



## BudShark

ironduke2010 said:


> well, i'm personally panicking because i had intended to sign up to directv prior to the world cup. directv has the best chance of eventually offering fox soccer channel HD, fox soccer plus HD, and goltv HD (in august), in addition to the extra Europa League and Champions League HD games not carried by the other channels, that only directv seems to offer.
> 
> dishnetwork is *already* broadcasting fox soccer channel HD, and will likely broadcast fox soccer plus HD soon, but they wont carry goltv HD (or goltv SD) and they don't have the extra Europa and Champions League games. however, dishnetwork is significantly less expensive at the moment.
> 
> the only reason i was holding out for directv was that it has the *potential* to carry all the HD soccer i want. given that it now looks like the D12 channels (which i'm hoping will include FSC HD and FSP HD) won't go online before the world cup in june, i'm leaning towards dish nework. lower price plus FSC HD gives it a huge advantage for my programming needs. if i'm going to sign a 24 month contract with early termination fees, i'd like to know what i'm getting beforehand....


Who said it won't be before June?????


----------



## JayPSU

Jeremy W said:


> They caused some panic among the people who aren't


You mean the people who actually DO have sources and are not relying on assumptions based on panic?


----------



## BudShark

ironduke2010 said:


> well, i'm personally panicking because i had intended to sign up to directv prior to the world cup. directv has the best chance of eventually offering fox soccer channel HD, fox soccer plus HD, and goltv HD (in august), in addition to the extra Europa League and Champions League HD games not carried by the other channels, that only directv seems to offer.
> 
> dishnetwork is *already* broadcasting fox soccer channel HD, and will likely broadcast fox soccer plus HD soon, but they wont carry goltv HD (or goltv SD) and they don't have the extra Europa and Champions League games. however, dishnetwork is significantly less expensive at the moment.
> 
> the only reason i was holding out for directv was that it has the *potential* to carry all the HD soccer i want. given that it now looks like the D12 channels (which i'm hoping will include FSC HD and FSP HD) won't go online before the world cup in june, i'm leaning towards dish nework. lower price plus FSC HD gives it a huge advantage for my programming needs. if i'm going to sign a 24 month contract with early termination fees, i'd like to know what i'm getting beforehand....


D12 won't go live before June?


----------



## Jeremy W

BudShark said:


> Who said it won't be before June?????


Who said it will be before June? As we've learned with ESPNU HD, plans change and we're not allowed to hold DirecTV to any dates they announce.


----------



## jefbal99

ironduke2010 said:


> well, i'm personally panicking because i had intended to sign up to directv prior to the world cup. directv has the best chance of eventually offering fox soccer channel HD, fox soccer plus HD, and goltv HD (in august), in addition to the extra Europa League and Champions League HD games not carried by the other channels, that only directv seems to offer.
> 
> dishnetwork is *already* broadcasting fox soccer channel HD, and will likely broadcast fox soccer plus HD soon, but they wont carry goltv HD (or goltv SD) and they don't have the extra Europa and Champions League games. however, dishnetwork is significantly less expensive at the moment.
> 
> the only reason i was holding out for directv was that it has the *potential* to carry all the HD soccer i want. given that it now looks like the D12 channels (which i'm hoping will include FSC HD and FSP HD) won't go online before the world cup in june, i'm leaning towards dish nework. lower price plus FSC HD gives it a huge advantage for my programming needs. if i'm going to sign a 24 month contract with early termination fees, i'd like to know what i'm getting beforehand....


All the WC games are on ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC in HD. DirecTV carries all of those or offers an OTA tuner to get ABC in HD if your DMA doesn't have HD LiL. There is some WC content on FSC, but I wouldn't allow that to make my decision on whether or not you wanted DirecTV for its overwhelming majority of soccer coverage. DirecTV is the only DBS provider with MLS DK in HD, i don't believe InDemand is offering DK in HD either, so they are the only game in town.


----------



## Rikinky

Do you believe in raising the Dead?


----------



## BudShark

ironduke2010 said:


> well, i'm personally panicking because i had intended to sign up to directv prior to the world cup. directv has the best chance of eventually offering fox soccer channel HD, fox soccer plus HD, and goltv HD (in august), in addition to the extra Europa League and Champions League HD games not carried by the other channels, that only directv seems to offer.
> 
> dishnetwork is *already* broadcasting fox soccer channel HD, and will likely broadcast fox soccer plus HD soon, but they wont carry goltv HD (or goltv SD) and they don't have the extra Europa and Champions League games. however, dishnetwork is significantly less expensive at the moment.
> 
> the only reason i was holding out for directv was that it has the *potential* to carry all the HD soccer i want. given that it now looks like the D12 channels (which i'm hoping will include FSC HD and FSP HD) won't go online before the world cup in june, i'm leaning towards dish nework. lower price plus FSC HD gives it a huge advantage for my programming needs. if i'm going to sign a 24 month contract with early termination fees, i'd like to know what i'm getting beforehand....


By the way... Welcome to DBSTalk!  Normally its not this crazy around here... but well... this thread is a bit different.

No one will promise you anything. Especially when it relates to D12 startup dates and channels to be launched. You will need to either wait, go with Dish, or take the risk. Sorry, there just isn't a better answer today.


----------



## Jeremy W

JayPSU said:


> You mean the people who actually DO have sources and are not relying on assumptions based on panic?


My assumptions are not based on panic, they're based on a careful examination of the facts in front of me. On the one hand, you have the "sources" saying it's all good, and on the other hand you have two extension requests with the FCC. Ignoring either of these things is foolish when attempting for form an opinion, and I've decided to give more weight to the extension requests than the "sources" at this time. If you want to weight things differently, that's totally up to you.


----------



## BudShark

Jeremy W said:


> Who said it will be before June? As we've learned with ESPNU HD, plans change and we're not allowed to hold DirecTV to any dates they announce.


:sure: I was joking... but with that said, there is absolutely nothing that has indicated DirecTV will be significantly off the May timeframe. They requests an STA to drift that runs to May 7th. Until I see a new STA request filed, I'm going to continue to assume they think they can get there by May 7th.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> My assumptions are not based on panic, they're based on a careful examination of the facts in front of me. On the one hand, you have the "sources" saying it's all good, and on the other hand you have two extension requests with the FCC. Ignoring either of these things is foolish when attempting for form an opinion, and I've decided to give more weight to the extension requests than the "sources" at this time. If you want to weight things differently, that's totally up to you.


Feel free to wallow in all the FUD, but the only "fact" in front of you regarding the extension is that it's been asked for. You have no personal knowledge of why or under what circumstances it was requested, especially in light of the drift approval granted earlier.

You are CHOOSING to believe something based on some criteria other than "fact."


----------



## bruinfever

This is getting ridiculous....
I come to this thread 5 times a day to find information about D12 and I have to sift through pages upon pages of crap (links to youtube, photos, cartoons, riddles, etc) to find 2 or 3 posts that actually have relevant information. 
I understand people are trying to play light about a possible serious situation, but IMHO its just too much.......


----------



## BudShark

Jeremy W said:


> My assumptions are not based on panic, they're based on a careful examination of the facts in front of me. On the one hand, you have the "sources" saying it's all good, and on the other hand you have two extension requests with the FCC. Ignoring either of these things is foolish when attempting for form an opinion, and I've decided to give more weight to the extension requests than the "sources" at this time. If you want to weight things differently, that's totally up to you.


So, which extension requests do you give weight to?

The one that requested drift to 103?
The ones that requested continued testing?

Or, should you, take them for what they are worth, and consider the possibility they requested an extension of the testing due to it expiring soon, and considering the ground station control drift STAs were approved, that the other 3 are just timing and the drift is still due to start SOON?

Its a mistake to assume the STAs filed yesterday are anything other than timing. They do not indicate a failure and are not in conflict with the "sources".


----------



## CorpITGuy

cforrest said:


> Letter from counsel asking for the extension:
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=810926


This ought to make every one understand: the lawyer who wrote this basically said to the FCC: "We want to test some more, because we plan to deploy this hunk o' junk!"

If D12 space debris right now, this attorney would be risking his license as well as jail time by lying to the FCC and making a public comment that is untrue to deliberately influence the stock price.

I'm as anxious as anyone, but it's just not possible that every single executive and lawyer at DirecTV wants to go to jail.

One more thing, though - clearly something isn't right. If it was truly a big deal, we'd have to know about it by now. Since we've heard nothing, it is more than likely a software glitch. So, can we just agree that both sides are right, both sides are wrong, and go back to studying TLEs?


----------



## Jeremy W

BudShark said:


> They requests an STA to drift that runs to May 7th.


That's true. However, that STA request was made when their latest testing STA expired on April 19th. That has changed, and so I expect the drift STA to change as well.


----------



## BudShark

bruinfever said:


> This is getting ridiculous....
> I come to this thread 5 times a day to find information about D12 and I have to sift through pages upon pages of crap (links to youtube, photos, cartoons, riddles, etc) to find 2 or 3 posts that actually have relevant information.
> I understand people are trying to play light about a possible serious situation, but IMHO its just too much.......


Thats why the locked thread was created. If information was to be had, it'd be updated and sent from there.


----------



## smiddy

BudShark said:


> Grape, Strawberry, or Suicide???


Jay-Jay or Jim Jones...yummy! :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> You are CHOOSING to believe something based on some criteria other than "fact."


Unless you've visited the control room where testing is going on, so are you.


----------



## Rikinky

D12: December ? 2009 - M.I.A (Assumed Dead).
Goodbye speeches and comments welcomed here.
To all those who were greatly anticipating the mass of HDPPV Channels.
This day truly marks a sad closure!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> My assumptions are not based on panic, they're based on a careful examination of the facts in front of me.


The facts are that DirecTV asked for more time to test.

What other facts are there?! 

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

CorpITGuy said:


> This ought to make every one understand: the lawyer who wrote this basically said to the FCC: "We want to test some more, because we plan to deploy this hunk o' junk!"
> 
> If D12 space debris right now, this attorney would be risking his license as well as jail time by lying to the FCC and making a public comment that is untrue to deliberately influence the stock price.


Oh please. This is pure BS. Nobody with any real knowledge on here believes that D12 is "space junk." You're completely misrepresenting the argument.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

bruinfever said:


> This is getting ridiculous....
> I come to this thread 5 times a day to find information about D12 and I have to sift through pages upon pages of crap (links to youtube, photos, cartoons, riddles, etc) to find 2 or 3 posts that actually have relevant information.
> I understand people are trying to play light about a possible serious situation, but IMHO its just too much.......


I resemble that remark. 

May I suggest that you watch this thread instead. As you very correctly pointed out, the thread you're reading has gotten so far out of hand that some bozo posted a picture of Goldie Hawn apparently for no reason.

In seriousness, we've allowed this thread to drift into insanity to give people a place to cool down a little bit since some folks thought the satellite would already be broadcasting by this point.


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> The facts are that DirecTV asked for more time to test.
> 
> What other facts are there?!


Did I say there were other facts?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> Oh please. This is pure BS. Nobody with any real knowledge on here believes that D12 is "space junk." You're completely misrepresenting the argument.


And on that topic, anyone remember these guys?


----------



## BudShark

Jeremy W said:


> Unless you've visited the control room where testing is going on, so are you.


You dispute that the FCC filings are fact? And that reading into their intent or what they mean is assumption?

Fact:
The existing IOT filing expires this weekend.
There are approved STA for ground control of drift from 76 to 103
There is a pending request for STA of drift
There are 3 pending requests for IOT testing for additional 30 days

Do any of those indicate a failure? Do any of those conflict the "sources"?

No.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Unless you've visited the control room where testing is going on, so are you.


Am I?


----------



## Button Pusher

I like Goldie! I'm just sayin.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> My assumptions are not based on panic, they're based on a careful examination of the facts in front of me.





Alan Gordon said:


> The facts are that DirecTV asked for more time to test.
> 
> What other facts are there?!





Jeremy W said:


> Did I say there were other facts?


Disregarding the fact that you stated "fact*s*"... something I was guilty of as well, the simple fact of the matter is that extended testing time does not necessarily mean anything is wrong with the satellite... YET you seem to imply there are additional "fact*s*" to back up the theory that there is. 

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

BudShark said:


> You dispute that the FCC filings are fact?


FCC filings are fact.


BudShark said:


> And that reading into their intent or what they mean is assumption?


Absolutely true.


BudShark said:


> Fact:
> The existing IOT filing expires this weekend.
> There are approved STA for ground control of drift from 76 to 103
> There is a pending request for STA of drift
> There are 3 pending requests for IOT testing for additional 30 days


I don't dispute any of this.


BudShark said:


> Do any of those indicate a failure?


No. Do any of these indicate that everything is fine? No.


BudShark said:


> Do any of those conflict the "sources"?


I would argue that they do. The sources have been saying that everything is going according to plan. If that is true, the "plan" is barely a plan at all. When everything goes according to plan, you don't need an extension, much less two.


----------



## Doug Brott

bruinfever said:


> This is getting ridiculous....
> I come to this thread 5 times a day to find information about D12 and I have to sift through pages upon pages of crap (links to youtube, photos, cartoons, riddles, etc) to find 2 or 3 posts that actually have relevant information.
> I understand people are trying to play light about a possible serious situation, but IMHO its just too much.......


Check the locked thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806
Your best source of information, not entertainment


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> the simple fact of the matter is that extended testing time does not necessarily mean anything is wrong with the satellite


You are completely correct.


Alan Gordon said:


> you seem to imply there are additional "fact*s*" to back up the theory that there is.


The only facts I was referring to are what the "sources" say and the FCC filings. If you felt that I implied that I had other facts, I apologize as that was not my intention.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> Unless you've visited the control room where testing is going on, so are you.


I haven't visited a control room, but:

D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> (...)If that is true, the "plan" is barely a plan at all. When everything goes according to plan, you don't need an extension, much less two.


Planning for contingencies is, by definition, part of planning. I've been told that we're still within the original window, and as far as these extensions, well I'm taking that to mean that there was some room in the plan for that.

We may never know why DIRECTV12 decided to hang out at 76° for longer than *we* expected but in the end it won't matter.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug Brott said:


> I haven't visited a control room (...)


I know that statement to be false 

But I take you on your word that you haven't visited the control room where DIRECTV12 is being monitored


----------



## BudShark

Jeremy W said:


> FCC filings are fact.
> 
> Absolutely true.
> 
> I don't dispute any of this.
> 
> No. Do any of these indicate that everything is fine? No.
> 
> I would argue that they do. The sources have been saying that everything is going according to plan. If that is true, the "plan" is barely a plan at all. When everything goes according to plan, you don't need an extension, much less two.


If the standard STA is 30 days (assumption but seems to be the norm) and your testing window is 65 days long, it would seem to me I'd need the original, and 2 extensions... and that if things went swimmingly, I might get away with 1 extension... but regardless one or two would be needed...


----------



## Rikinky

Anyway!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> ...
> I would argue that they do. The sources have been saying that everything is going according to plan. If that is true, the "plan" is barely a plan at all. When everything goes according to plan, you don't need an extension, much less two.


I dispute this last bit of logic. This makes assumptions:

1) that DIRECTV's plan did not include the possibility of extensions
2) that DIRECTV's plan didn't always intend upon this amount of testing time but did not initially request the time (and could be true for many business and FCC reasons...)

It also ignores the timing element of the information.

At this point speculation is an interesting thing. Yet it is still speculation. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> You are completely correct.
> 
> The only facts I was referring to are what the "sources" say and the FCC filings. If you felt that I implied that I had other facts, I apologize as that was not my intention.


Fair enough! 

However, until I have reason to think otherwise, I'm going to go with the MODS whose sources have never given me reason to doubt them.... instead of paying attention to FCC filings which could mean absolutely nothing at all.

~Alan


----------



## CorpITGuy

Jeremy W said:


> Oh please. This is pure BS. Nobody with any real knowledge on here believes that D12 is "space junk." You're completely misrepresenting the argument.


No one here HAS real knowledge, except the mods who say everything is fine. "Space junk" was NOT meant to be taken literally.

I am inclined to believe the mods, since (a) they haven't ever lied to me before and (b) we know for a fact that they DO have connections with D*.


----------



## Jeremy W

BudShark said:


> If the standard STA is 30 days (assumption but seems to be the norm) and your testing window is 65 days long, it would seem to me I'd need the original, and 2 extensions... and that if things went swimmingly, I might get away with 1 extension... but regardless one or two would be needed...


You can do a 120-day STA as well. I'm not a rocket scientist or a lawyer that deals with rocket scientists, but I'd think that a 120-day STA would be a better fit for a 65-day test period than a 30-day STA and two extensions. I honestly don't remember how D10 and D11 testing went, but I'd love to know if there were any extensions involved in either case.


----------



## Jeremy W

CorpITGuy said:


> I am inclined to believe the mods, since (a) they haven't ever lied to me before and (b) we know for a fact that they DO have connections with D*.


I don't think the mods are lying.


----------



## jimmyv2000

Stuart Sweet said:


> And on that topic, anyone remember these guys?


The FAR OUT SPACE NUTS !!!
i remember that show!!!


----------



## CorpITGuy

Jeremy W said:


> You can do a 120-day STA as well. I'm not a rocket scientist or a lawyer that deals with rocket scientists, but I'd think that a 120-day STA would be a better fit for a 65-day test period than a 30-day STA and two extensions. I honestly don't remember how D10 and D11 testing went, but I'd love to know if there were any extensions involved in either case.


Agreed. That may very well be the way the system must be gamed, but it is still misleading, perhaps intentionally so.


----------



## Rikinky




----------



## smiddy

It is Friday, work is nearly done, my beer is chilled in the fridge and the only one I want falling, is me.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> I honestly don't remember how D10 and D11 testing went, but I'd love to know if there were any extensions involved in either case.


There were not.

However, D12/RB-2A has a sufficiently-unique payload as compared to D10 and D11 to say that it's really more of a cousin to those two brothers than it is a brother itself. Drawing an analogy from either of them is not necessarily the best thing to do.


----------



## Tom Robertson

smiddy said:


> It is Friday, work is nearly done, my beer is chilled in the fridge and the only one I want falling, is me.


I still got work and pizza yet tonight...


----------



## Groundhog45

Tom Robertson said:


> I still got work and pizza yet tonight...


Diet Coke and pizza, but you can have Pepsi.


----------



## bigyfoot30

This thread is hilarious. I haven't seen so much BS since I spent time on my grandparents farm as a youngster in the 50's.

Nobody, except perhaps a very few, (Doug, Stu, LL) have any idea as to what the "plan" is. Yet all this gloom and doom is based off inuendo, supposition and conjecture without any real facts to back them up.

If I were D*, I'd try every hairbrained scheme my engineers could come up with to try out different ideas and methods while the sat is totally unloaded and not subject to interfere with my other sats

Just my thoughts


----------



## jefbal99

smiddy said:


> It is Friday, work is nearly done, my beer is chilled in the fridge and the only one I want falling, is me.


Have to stop and get beer on the way home from the office



Tom Robertson said:


> I still got work and pizza yet tonight...


Work is done in 31 minutes, not sure on dinner yet


----------



## ctaranto

bigyfoot30 said:


> If I were D*, I'd try every hairbrained scheme my engineers could come up with to try out different ideas and methods while the sat is totally unloaded and not subject to interfere with my other sats


This is a great point, and not something I remember seeing in any of the previous 6000+ posts. With D10, D* knew there was D11 coming. With D11, D* knew there was D12 coming. With D12, there isn't a current plan for D13 (or D14 if those who are superstitious). This is their "last chance" to test the bajeebers out of a sat for a long time.

-Craig


----------



## oldfantom

Can anyone tell me, especially those worrying about extensions, what the FCC definition of the word "temporary" might be. All of these grants are for thirty days. I am not sure I believe that to be coincidence. I would bet that a temporary authority to test means 30 days of testing. If you ask for more time up front, well then you are not requesting temporary authority. Of course if you plan to test for 90 days going in, knowing you will ask for a grant then two extensions, isn't that the same as asking for 90 days? Heck no, this is the federal government. I could be wrong, but this smells like typical government red tape. 

My paranoid rambling of the day, not directly involving the health of D12. 

By the way, those of you waiting with bated (or even baited) breath for may daily waffle. Today my waffle comes in the form of waffling about my daily waffle. My opinion of the health of D12 remains as it was in my last post on the subject. I do not recall if I am in panic mode or not presently. I do not have the desire to go look for my last opinion. Suffice to say it is unchanged and I 100% behind that opinion, whatever that opinion was.


----------



## jilardi2

jimmyv2000 said:


> The FAR OUT SPACE NUTS !!!
> i remember that show!!!


Is that gilligan on the right?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> I honestly don't remember how D10 and D11 testing went, but I'd love to know if there were any extensions involved in either case.





LameLefty said:


> There were not.
> 
> However, D12/RB-2A has a sufficiently-unique payload as compared to D10 and D11 to say that it's really more of a cousin to those two brothers than it is a brother itself. Drawing an analogy from either of them is not necessarily the best thing to do.


And, ironically, D10 DID have issues.

~Alan


----------



## wmb

jilardi2 said:


> Is that gilligan on the right?


No, its Maynard G. Krebs.

Actually, its Bob Denver, who played Gilligan.


----------



## jilardi2

wmb said:


> No, its Dobie Gillis.
> 
> Actually, its Bob Denver, who played Gilligan.


thanks


----------



## Maleman

sad


----------



## bb37

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Doug, I find your choice of words somewhat curious.

If I intended to say that a communications satellite would be performing the telecommunications functions that it was designed for, I would say that it was "in service". But, you have repeatedly said "on service".

In your mind, is there a difference between me saying "in service" and you saying "on service"?


----------



## Alan Gordon

bb37 said:


> In your mind, is there a difference between me saying "in service" and you saying "on service"?


1. YOU said "in service".
2. HE said "on service".
3. i
4. o



~Alan


----------



## bigyfoot30

bb37 said:


> Doug, I find your choice of words somewhat curious.
> 
> If I intended to say that a communications satellite would be performing the telecommunications functions that it was designed for, I would say that it was "in service". But, you have repeatedly said "on service".
> 
> In your mind, is there a difference between me saying "in service" and you saying "on service"?


Getting a little nitpicky are we ??


----------



## syphix

Be honest...how nervous were you when DirecTV filed a SEC statement...
http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-3833

(nothing mentioned about D12, btw)


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> And on that topic, anyone remember these guys?


Duuuuuude:eek2:

Stuart is in rare form today.



bigyfoot30 said:


> Getting a little nitpicky are we ??


Hey now. I noticed it too. I just didn't get all nitpicky about it.


----------



## V'ger

Jeremy W said:


> FCC filings are fact.
> I would argue that they do. The sources have been saying that everything is going according to plan. If that is true, the "plan" is barely a plan at all. When everything goes according to plan, you don't need an extension, much less two.


Extensions are likely spelled out in the 'contingency' part of the plan.


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . .



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-16 11:40:14
Orbit # at Epoch	116
Inclination		0.061
RA of A. Node		32.536
Eccentricity		0.0001616
Argument of Perigee	52.069
Revs per day		1.00272030
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 793 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		218.946
Element number / age	156 / 0 day(s)


----------



## spikey

There is an unsubstantiated rumor that D12 has been sold to an investor group who plans on using D12 as the orbiting station for their nanotube elevator. :roundandr


----------



## loudo

Groundhog45 said:


> Diet Coke and pizza, but you can have Pepsi.


The only thing to drink with pizza is *BEER*!!


----------



## wmb

loudo said:


> The only thing to drink with pizza is *BEER*!!


Maybe a nice Chianti.


----------



## P Smith

nd bronco fan said:


> Sorry for reposting them then, its hard to sift through the garbage on here to find the pertinent info, I went back 5 pages and did not see it. Maybe missed it or did not go far enough.


It's doesn't matter what you adding to a garbage - good or bad, excellent of useless - it's still a garbage.


----------



## ironduke2010

jefbal99 said:


> All the WC games are on ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC in HD. DirecTV carries all of those or offers an OTA tuner to get ABC in HD if your DMA doesn't have HD LiL. There is some WC content on FSC, but I wouldn't allow that to make my decision on whether or not you wanted DirecTV for its overwhelming majority of soccer coverage. DirecTV is the only DBS provider with MLS DK in HD, i don't believe InDemand is offering DK in HD either, so they are the only game in town.


yeah, i know. i'm not so much worried about the world cup since i can get espn hd just about anywhere. but since i'm out of contract with no HD right now, and since just about everywhere has a 24month contract these days, i'd like to do this once then not have to revisit the "what provider" question.

the thing is, soccer makes up over 50% of what we end up watching, and directv is overwhelming there, as you say. at the same time, HD soccer is far far more enjoyable than SD soccer. things would just be a LOT easier if directv at least announced "we will carry FSC HD when D12 goes live." but, so far, silence.....


----------



## longrider

Al I have to say:


----------



## damondlt

So whats the latest word?

I would have read through, But I didn't feel like reading all the meaningless posts.
*Take the jokes and the off topic comments to the chat room people.*

Keep this thread open for real updates.


----------



## ironduke2010

BudShark said:


> By the way... Welcome to DBSTalk!  Normally its not this crazy around here... but well... this thread is a bit different.
> 
> No one will promise you anything. Especially when it relates to D12 startup dates and channels to be launched. You will need to either wait, go with Dish, or take the risk. Sorry, there just isn't a better answer today.


yeah, i know how boards generally work. i know a meltdown when i see it! of course, the only reason i'm here is because i want D12 info. at least dish has the Fox Sports Network of stations in HD, which occasionally carries games that otherwise only dtv seems to have. the longer D12 takes, the closer i go to dish....


----------



## LameLefty

damondlt said:


> So whats the latest word?
> 
> I would have read through, But I didn't feel like reading all the meaningless posts.
> *Take the jokes and the off topic comments to the chat room people.*
> 
> Keep this thread open for real updates.


Subscribe to the other thread. That's what it was setup and locked for. This one has become the place to vent and discuss more informally.


----------



## damondlt

LameLefty said:


> Subscribe to the other thread. That's what it was setup and locked for. This one has become the place to vent and discuss more informally.


 It should still remain on topic.


----------



## P Smith

bruinfever said:


> This is getting ridiculous....
> I come to this thread 5 times a day to find information about D12 and I have to sift through pages upon pages of crap (links to youtube, photos, cartoons, riddles, etc) to find 2 or 3 posts that actually have relevant information.
> I understand people are trying to play light about a possible serious situation, but IMHO its just too much.......


You are not oblige to read anything here - just look at the topic, when time will come you will see a word *DRIFT* in it.


----------



## BudShark

damondlt said:


> So whats the latest word?
> 
> I would have read through, But I didn't feel like reading all the meaningless posts.
> *Take the jokes and the off topic comments to the chat room people.*
> 
> Keep this thread open for real updates.


I was going to be a pain, but I won't.

Yesterday Directv filed 3 more STAs for continued testing at 76. The drift STA has not been approved yet. The older testing STAs expire this weekend. DirecTV sources are still saying things are fine, and even Vader's source was more positive.

So... it appears to just be timing. Nothing more, nothing less. D12 is fine and will provide new HD channels to us all... _*Soon*_


----------



## Stuart Sweet

damondlt said:


> So whats the latest word?
> 
> I would have read through, But I didn't feel like reading all the meaningless posts.
> *Take the jokes and the off topic comments to the chat room people.*
> 
> Keep this thread open for real updates.


Under normal circumstances I'd completely agree with you. However, this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806 is open for real updates. The thread you're reading has devolved into conspiracy theories, Monty Python videos, and the like... and that's ok with the staff as long as you're all polite.


----------



## Athlon646464

damondlt said:


> So whats the latest word?


Your answer is in post #6074


----------



## BudShark

LameLefty said:


> Subscribe to the other thread. That's what it was setup and locked for. This one has become the place to vent and discuss more informally.


What?!?!?! Who's running this place? Chicken Little?!?!?!?!


----------



## damondlt

BudShark said:


> I was going to be a pain, but I won't.
> 
> Yesterday Directv filed 3 more STAs for continued testing at 76. The drift STA has not been approved yet. The older testing STAs expire this weekend. DirecTV sources are still saying things are fine, and even Vader's source was more positive.
> 
> So... it appears to just be timing. Nothing more, nothing less. D12 is fine and will provide new HD channels to us all... _*Soon*_


Directv Media Department also claims D*12 is not having any issues.
That was as of 15 minutes ago.

They claim They would be the first to know is an issue was present.:lol:


----------



## oldfantom

BudShark said:


> What?!?!?! Who's running this place? Chicken Little?!?!?!?!


No, The Shadow is running this place. But rather than chasing the evil that lurks in the heart of man, he is tasked with babysitting we the silly. I blame television.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I just talked with Chicken Little....and he said that the ash from the volcano is blocking his ability to see if the sky is falling, or just dirty.


----------



## trdrjeff

If you're going to test at least go HD, I mean that's what we're all wanting


----------



## wmb

ironduke2010 said:


> yeah, i know. i'm not so much worried about the world cup since i can get espn hd just about anywhere. but since i'm out of contract with no HD right now, and since just about everywhere has a 24month contract these days, i'd like to do this once then not have to revisit the "what provider" question.
> 
> the thing is, soccer makes up over 50% of what we end up watching, and directv is overwhelming there, as you say. at the same time, HD soccer is far far more enjoyable than SD soccer. things would just be a LOT easier if directv at least announced "we will carry FSC HD when D12 goes live." but, so far, silence.....


Sounds like a bit of a crap shoot as to whether you will get what you want. On a side note, and maybe you can get better information over at Big Soccer, but I believe ESPN is getting more EPL games from Fox next year.

Currently, D* is the only place for GolTV. My bet is that it is most likely that D* will add it in August when it becomes live, thats what ads and a service tech that was out to re-aim our dish last week said (both unreliable).

D* also carries UEFA Champions and Europa leagues in HD.

So, if all goes well, FSC-HD, FSC+-HD, GolTV-HD will be added, and you will be very happy. If not, you will have MLS DK, and the games on ESPN in HD. Hopefully, the UEFA games will remain.

With any luck, by June 1, this delay will resolve itself and we will have FSC in HD, and be waiting on GolTV in HD. Given the number of people here who want their football in HD, I can't imagine that another EPL season kicks off and we don't have FSC in HD. Anyhow, D* is the sports leader and they have made a real effort to bring us HD soccer (UEFA games), so I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

That said, no harm in waiting this one out.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

damondlt said:


> Directv Media Department also claims D*12 is not having any issues.
> That was as of 15 minutes ago.
> 
> They claim They would be the first to know is an issue was present.:lol:


That's the funniest thing I've read here all day!:lol:


----------



## P Smith

Four more days for waiting of begin of D12 relocation.... 


How many posts ppl will pile during those four days ?!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm guessing about 1,000. But hey, let's have some fun with it. As I said, just be polite.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

P Smith said:


> Four more days for waiting of begin of D12 relocation....


4 days? Do you know something?!?!?!?!? What's your source? Aw, come on what do you know?!?!?!?!!?


----------



## Lt Disher

syphix said:


> Be honest...how nervous were you when DirecTV filed a SEC statement...
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-3833
> 
> (nothing mentioned about D12, btw)


Actually, it does mention D12.

"In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."

and again, "Additionally, when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households."

and again, more interestingly, when describing the risks for in orbit satellites, "For example, we purchased launch insurance covering a portion of our DIRECTV 12 satellite, which we launched at the end of 2009, and launch vehicle costs in the event of a total loss of the satellite prior to separation from the launch vehicle, but did not purchase in-orbit insurance for it."

Since this was filed today, I think that if there were any major problems with D12, they would have to disclose them.

(btw, a simple search of '12' found these references to D12.)


----------



## litzdog911

Don't panic


----------



## Jeremy W

Lt Disher said:


> Since this was filed today, I think that if there were any major problems with D12, they would have to disclose them.


If they had reason to believe D12 would not be able to be put in service in the second quarter of this year, then yes they would have had to disclose it. I'm sure D12 will eventually be on service. I just think that it's going to be more like D10, where we find out that part of isn't working quite right.


----------



## bigyfoot30

D12's controllers are busy preparing for drift


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't think you'll ever know why the satellite lingered longer at 76° than *we* expected.


----------



## Jeremy W

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't think you'll ever know why the satellite lingered longer at 76° than *we* expected.


If the satellite emerges fom 76 100% operational, then I'm sure it will remain shrouded in mystery forever.


----------



## Piratefan98

Anybody here, seen my old friend D12?
Can you tell me where it's gone?


----------



## ironduke2010

Jeremy W said:


> If they had reason to believe D12 would not be able to be put in service in the second quarter of this year, then yes they would have had to disclose it. I'm sure D12 will eventually be on service. I just think that it's going to be more like D10, where we find out that part of isn't working quite right.


ok. so what happened with D10?


----------



## Doug Brott

bb37 said:


> Doug, I find your choice of words somewhat curious.
> 
> If I intended to say that a communications satellite would be performing the telecommunications functions that it was designed for, I would say that it was "in service". But, you have repeatedly said "on service".
> 
> In your mind, is there a difference between me saying "in service" and you saying "on service"?


Kinda reminds me of an old Berenstain book ..


----------



## ironduke2010

wmb said:


> Sounds like a bit of a crap shoot as to whether you will get what you want. On a side note, and maybe you can get better information over at Big Soccer, but I believe ESPN is getting more EPL games from Fox next year.
> 
> Currently, D* is the only place for GolTV. My bet is that it is most likely that D* will add it in August when it becomes live, thats what ads and a service tech that was out to re-aim our dish last week said (both unreliable).
> 
> D* also carries UEFA Champions and Europa leagues in HD.
> 
> So, if all goes well, FSC-HD, FSC+-HD, GolTV-HD will be added, and you will be very happy. If not, you will have MLS DK, and the games on ESPN in HD. Hopefully, the UEFA games will remain.
> 
> With any luck, by June 1, this delay will resolve itself and we will have FSC in HD, and be waiting on GolTV in HD. Given the number of people here who want their football in HD, I can't imagine that another EPL season kicks off and we don't have FSC in HD. Anyhow, D* is the sports leader and they have made a real effort to bring us HD soccer (UEFA games), so I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> That said, no harm in waiting this one out.


The only harm in waiting it out is all the HD i'm missing! this would be much easier if i didn't know people were already watching fsc hd....

and yeah, i've been griping on bigsoccer too.....


----------



## Athlon646464

While doing some independant research (independant from this thread anyway), I ran across D12's very own web site. :eek2:

There is no news about the satellite there either. :nono:

http://www.d12.com/


----------



## gully_foyle

Stuart Sweet said:


> Planning for contingencies is, by definition, part of planning. I've been told that we're still within the original window, and as far as these extensions, well I'm taking that to mean that there was some room in the plan for that.
> 
> We may never know why DIRECTV12 decided to hang out at 76° for longer than *we* expected but in the end it won't matter.


Maybe they're planning on moving it right away, but are sandbagging Dish with the request to stay at 76....

Or maybe they'll soon announce their new HD service to Central and South America from 76W....

Or maybe a lot of things. Just so it's live before Mad Men starts up again.


----------



## sdirv

BudShark said:


> Ok. No problem. I forwarded your request to Jerry - he said you will get it beamed right into your house. And then he said, Hmm, I hope we have the power turned down by then.
> 
> *If this post makes no sense to you, please read Tom's above.
> *If Tom's post makes no sense to you, Welcome to the SixtoReport: D12 Satellite Info (Testing at 76°) thread. Things have gone awry and are no longer Nom-Ee-Null.


As long as Jerry isn't reading "Catcher in the Rye"......


----------



## jazzyjez

I thought it was about time I stepped in and corrected a few of the misunderstandings about D12. All this delay is really about getting the new 3D system working properly. As you know, testing is currently at the 76 location and this mainly involves the BSS system - this stands for Better Stereo Separation - clearly required, in a vision sense, for good 3D. When the testing of this is complete, the BSS part actually detaches from D12 which then moves to the 103 slot. The angle between these two separate, but linked satellites then almost exactly matches the viewing angle between the left and right sides of your TV screen. Obviously for optimum 3D you should make sure you buy a screen that gives you the same angle - note that this will vary according to your latitude - since that varies your view angle of each satellite, and it also varies with the distance of your couch from the TV. Also keep an eye on the TLE (Twin Lens Effect) numbers as these too are critical for 3D viewing.

Long time readers of this site will also know about the importance of dish setup - parameters like elevation, azimuth and tilt. It's the tilt that becomes really critical here for good 3D. Ka/Ku band satellites make use of different polarizing systems on different transponders and obviously this needs to match the polarizing of your 3D glasses (forget those annoying shutter types). If there's too much, or too little tilt then the 3D effect is reduced. Discerning viewers should measure, or estimate the average tilt of each person likely to watch - if you and your spouse always sit completely upright then no problem, but if you tend to lean to one side then you may need to adjust your tilt settings. Probably most users will come up with an average tilt according to the size and sponginess of their sofa, but will also need to account for beer/wine tilt and also "this movie is so dull" tilt. It's rumored that the HR25 series will have auto-tilt built in.


----------



## FHSPSU67

damondlt said:


> It should still remain on topic.


!rolling


----------



## bb37

Alan Gordon said:


> 1. YOU said "in service".
> 2. HE said "on service".
> 3. i
> 4. o


Yes, it may be nit-picky.

Words have meaning and careful writers choose their words, well, carefully. I'm giving Doug the benefit of the doubt by thinking that he has a good grasp of American English and that his choice was deliberate. If Doug means something by saying "on service", I'd like to know what he's thinking.

It's as useful as reading posts from people who fail to appreciate the facts as we know them (based on press releases, FCC filings, and TLEs), who speculate wildly based on rumors and assumptions, or who post off-topic comments (me included).


----------



## sdirv

Tom Robertson said:


> I still got work and pizza yet tonight...


I've got my lawn mowed, wife is out of town, life is good........


----------



## oldfantom

Gold Leader: "It's no good. I can't maneuver!" 
Gold Five: "Stay on topic." 
Gold Leader: "We're too close!" 
Gold Five: "Stay on topic."


----------



## Athlon646464

jazzyjez said:


> I thought it was about time I stepped in and corrected a few of the misunderstandings about D12. All this delay is really about getting the new 3D system working properly. As you know, testing is currently at the 76 location and this mainly involves the BSS system - this stands for Better Stereo Separation - clearly required, in a vision sense, for good 3D. When the testing of this is complete, the BSS part actually detaches from D12 which then moves to the 103 slot. The angle between these two separate, but linked satellites then almost exactly matches the viewing angle between the left and right sides of your TV screen. Obviously for optimum 3D you should make sure you buy a screen that gives you the same angle - note that this will vary according to your latitude - since that varies your view angle of each satellite, and it also varies with the distance of your couch from the TV. Also keep an eye on the TLE (Twin Lens Effect) numbers as these too are critical for 3D viewing.
> 
> Long time readers of this site will also know about the importance of dish setup - parameters like elevation, azimuth and tilt. It's the tilt that becomes really critical here for good 3D. Ka/Ku band satellites make use of different polarizing systems on different transponders and obviously this needs to match the polarizing of your 3D glasses (forget those annoying shutter types). If there's too much, or too little tilt then the 3D effect is reduced. Discerning viewers should measure, or estimate the average tilt of each person likely to watch - if you and your spouse always sit completely upright then no problem, but if you tend to lean to one side then you may need to adjust your tilt settings. Probably most users will come up with an average tilt according to the size and sponginess of their sofa, but will also need to account for beer/wine tilt and also "this movie is so dull" tilt. It's rumored that the HR25 series will have auto-tilt built in.


I know this is off topic, but learning I will need two dishes for 3D when D12 separates really bums me out. The wife won't go for another dish.

What if I were to just aim between the two halves of D12? :grin:


----------



## sdirv

oldfantom said:


> Gold Leader: "It's no good. I can't maneuver!"
> Gold Five: "Stay on topic."
> Gold Leader: "We're too close!"
> Gold Five: "Stay on topic."


Almost there.....almost there.........


----------



## smiddy

jazzyjez said:


> I thought it was about time I stepped in and corrected a few of the misunderstandings about D12. All this delay is really about getting the new 3D system working properly. As you know, testing is currently at the 76 location and this mainly involves the BSS system - this stands for Better Stereo Separation - clearly required, in a vision sense, for good 3D. When the testing of this is complete, the BSS part actually detaches from D12 which then moves to the 103 slot. The angle between these two separate, but linked satellites then almost exactly matches the viewing angle between the left and right sides of your TV screen. Obviously for optimum 3D you should make sure you buy a screen that gives you the same angle - note that this will vary according to your latitude - since that varies your view angle of each satellite, and it also varies with the distance of your couch from the TV. Also keep an eye on the TLE (Twin Lens Effect) numbers as these too are critical for 3D viewing.
> 
> Long time readers of this site will also know about the importance of dish setup - parameters like elevation, azimuth and tilt. It's the tilt that becomes really critical here for good 3D. Ka/Ku band satellites make use of different polarizing systems on different transponders and obviously this needs to match the polarizing of your 3D glasses (forget those annoying shutter types). If there's too much, or too little tilt then the 3D effect is reduced. Discerning viewers should measure, or estimate the average tilt of each person likely to watch - if you and your spouse always sit completely upright then no problem, but if you tend to lean to one side then you may need to adjust your tilt settings. Probably most users will come up with an average tilt according to the size and sponginess of their sofa, but will also need to account for beer/wine tilt and also "this movie is so dull" tilt. It's rumored that the HR25 series will have auto-tilt built in.


Man, you know, this REALLY seems plausible especially in light of any parallax errors that may form as a result. 

(Man, I slay me!)


----------



## Athlon646464

I just found a picture of what Sixto's been working on while he's away!!

D12 coverage!!! :hurah:


----------



## Hdhead

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


And for all the doubters your punishment is to type the aforementioned quote 100 times and submit to Doug for grading. No cut and paste allowed!

That should keep them quiet for a while.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bb37 said:


> Yes, it may be nit-picky.


I was just messing with you! 

~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

smiddy said:


> It is Friday, work is nearly done, my beer is chilled in the fridge and the only one I want falling, is me.


----------



## tuckerdog

Tom Robertson several pages ago published this definition of fine "
Fine - nebulous term. Definitely not dead, but perhaps not Perfect. Certainly healthy enough to not warrant a Drs. note to the SEC principal..."
Since he clearly, as mentioned in the same post has sources at DTV, and since "fine" is the words used by the Mods to describe D12's status, that
1. There may be some problem with the SAT. that either requires some further testing to resolve and or work around?
2. That once the drift starts the ability to further deal with the problem will be lost.
3. That some minor delay in putting the D12 in service is in the big picture a small price to pay for any the likely gain of maximizing its effectiveness
4. Even if the Sat is eventually put into service at less then 100% efficiency, it will still offer a dramatic increase in HD availability. After all, D10 with problems added significantly more National HD than the fully functional D11.
Michael


----------



## Satelliteracer

Athlon646464 said:


> I just found a picture of what Sixto's been working on while he's away!!
> 
> D12 coverage!!! :hurah:


Oh my gosh, is that Duke Nukem? I remember him from 20 years ago.


----------



## Athlon646464

Satelliteracer said:


> Oh my gosh, is that Duke Nukem? I remember him from 20 years ago.


No, that's Sixto keeping you away from his new 3D HDTV while testing D12.

:hurah:


----------



## wmb

Jeremy W said:


> If the satellite emerges fom 76 100% operational, then I'm sure it will remain shrouded in mystery forever.


Actually, if it emerges from 76W 100% operational, I suspect that we will learn what the delay was all about when they make more detailed filings for the future BSS satellites that they are supposed to have under contract this summer.


----------



## bigyfoot30

Satelliteracer said:


> Oh my gosh, is that Duke Nukem? I remember him from 20 years ago.


WB,,, What's the good word?? :grin:


----------



## BudShark

jefbal99 said:


>


I am SOOOOO disappointed in you. No D12 for you!!! Bad beer drinker!


----------



## BudShark

bigyfoot30 said:


> WB,,, What's the good word?? :grin:


You didn't see it? Wow!! Here's the link [link]broken link [/link]


----------



## jefbal99

BudShark said:


> I am SOOOOO disappointed in you. No D12 for you!!! Bad beer drinker!


How am I a bad beer drinker? What is wrong with a Black and tan (or Black O in this case)?


----------



## tcusta00

jefbal99 said:


> How am I a bad beer drinker? What is wrong with a Black and tan (or Black O in this case)?


If we have to tell you... :lol:


----------



## tcusta00

BudShark said:


> You didn't see it? Wow!! Here's the link [link]broken link [/link]


!rolling You're in rare form lately.


----------



## jefbal99

tcusta00 said:


> If we have to tell you... :lol:


Then obviously you need to experience the rare joy of Guinness Stout floating gracefully on top of a wonderful summer Bell's Oberon


----------



## BudShark

jefbal99 said:


> Then obviously you need to experience the rare joy of Guinness Stout floating gracefully on top of a wonderful summer Bell's Oberon


. The BUD in BUDshark is a reference to my employer . Bad non Budweiser beer drinker :lol:


----------



## tcusta00

jefbal99 said:


> Then obviously you need to experience the rare joy of Guinness Stout floating gracefully on top of a wonderful summer Bell's Oberon


Bad.


BudShark said:


> . The BUD in BUDshark is a reference to my employer . Bad non Budweiser beer drinker :lol:


Worse.

:lol:

I'm just a beer snob, don't mind me.


----------



## James Long

If there are any HD channels you're really desperate for perhaps those of us who have the channels can provide screen shots for you? 

Otherwise I suppose you'll just have to wait for reruns.


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> If there are any HD channels you're really desperate for perhaps those of us who have the channels can provide screen shots for you?
> 
> Otherwise I suppose you'll just have to wait for reruns.


We'll give you screen shots, too, of all the great MLB games in HD. Or the higher resolution we're seeing on HD channels. :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

BudShark said:


> . The BUD in BUDshark is a reference to my employer . Bad non Budweiser beer drinker :lol:


You'll be happy to know that Budweiser is my standard swill


----------



## jefbal99

tcusta00 said:


> Bad.
> 
> Worse.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I'm just a beer snob, don't mind me.


Have you ever had Oberon from Bells? Its the Kalamazoo brewing company in SE Michigan. Great stuff, their Two Hearted Ale and Third Coast Old ALe are two of my favorites. Both super hoppy and tasty


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> If there are any HD channels you're really desperate for perhaps those of us who have the channels can provide screen shots for you?
> 
> Otherwise I suppose you'll just have to wait for reruns.


 Watch them while you can, because they disappear just a quick as they appear.
Enjoy that $600 922 and the $10 DVR fee that goes with it.:lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

Athlon646464 said:


> I know this is off topic, but learning I will need two dishes for 3D when D12 separates really bums me out. The wife won't go for another dish.
> 
> What if I were to just aim between the two halves of D12? :grin:


You can use a single dish, but will need a special multiswitch to switch polarizations at a 60 Hz rate.


----------



## tcusta00

jefbal99 said:


> Have you ever had Oberon from Bells? Its the Kalamazoo brewing company in SE Michigan. Great stuff, their Two Hearted Ale and Third Coast Old ALe are two of my favorites. Both super hoppy and tasty


Bells ROCKS!

Why are you mixing it with that Guiness swill?


----------



## Santi360HD

246 pages and counting...my question is easy

is the satellite Dead??

what's the general consensus here?


----------



## slimoli

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...my question is easy
> 
> is the satellite Dead??
> 
> what's the general consensus here?


No consensus at all. This thread is now all about beer and Star Trek.


----------



## smiddy

jefbal99 said:


>


Dude, that is one fine Black and Tan! Whoa!


----------



## smiddy

tcusta00 said:


> Bad.
> 
> Worse.
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I'm just a beer snob, don't mind me.


The term you are looking for is *beer aficionado*! Snob seems too much like your nose is in the air...oh, crap, wait, that is what you do, isn't it? :lol:


----------



## Lt Disher

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...my question is easy
> 
> is the satellite Dead??
> 
> what's the general consensus here?


Opinions are across the board. It would be hard to come up with a general consensus.

Having said that, however, my reading of the thread is that the satellite is not dead, but encountered some problems in testing. It will eventually get to its assigned location with those problems fixed, though it may be in a slightly weakened state.


----------



## jefbal99

tcusta00 said:


> Bells ROCKS!
> 
> Why are you mixing it with that Guiness swill?


I could have picked one of the many fine Bells stouts to make the beverage with. Would that fit your snobbish needs?



smiddy said:


> Dude, that is one fine Black and Tan! Whoa!


First one I had poured at home in prolly 3 years, its all in the spoon 

I'll be making a few more this evening

Also geeked that I found my pub glass, thought I had broke my last one a couple years ago


----------



## cb7214

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...my question is easy
> 
> is the satellite Dead??
> 
> what's the general consensus here?


The general consensus is that.....No one knows anything for sure


----------



## James Long

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...my question is easy
> 
> is the satellite Dead??
> 
> what's the general consensus here?


The satellite is not dead. Death must be reported and there is no report.

The satellite is "fine" ... Which is the same response one expects out of a casual acquaintance or coworker when asked "how are you doing". They may have suffered more than a person in a country music song (lost their wife, girlfriend, dog and truck) but everything is "fine".


----------



## lowmazda

James Long said:


> The satellite is not dead. Death must be reported and there is no report.
> 
> The satellite is "fine" ... Which is the same response one expects out of a casual acquaintance or coworker when asked "how are you doing". They may have suffered more than a person in a country music song (lost their wife, girlfriend, dog and truck) but everything is "fine".


Or, maybe everything really is 'fine'. Meaning there is nothing wrong.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> If there are any HD channels you're really desperate for perhaps those of us who have the channels can provide screen shots for you?
> 
> Otherwise I suppose you'll just have to wait for reruns.


Talk to me again during football season, Mr. Super Moderator, Sir.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> The satellite is not dead. Death must be reported and there is no report.
> 
> The satellite is "fine" ... Which is the same response one expects out of a casual acquaintance or coworker when asked "how are you doing". They may have suffered more than a person in a country music song (lost their wife, girlfriend, dog and truck) but everything is "fine".


Dude!!!! 

D12 lost its girlfriend! 

:lol:


----------



## bb37

Santi360HD said:


> what's the general consensus here?


The consensus of a forum full of speculators, rumor-mongers, hand-wringers, nervous nellies, nabobs of negativism, sci-fi fans, and beer snobs is not important.

What is important are facts. The facts are, based on TLEs, D12 is still at 76 deg and, based on FCC grants, is still undergoing testing and, based on the lack of press releases to the contrary, is in no different condition than when it was launched.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Dude!!!!
> 
> D12 lost its girlfriend!
> 
> :lol:


Aren't satellite gender neutral? :scratchin


----------



## Groundhog45

LameLefty said:


> Dude!!!!
> 
> D12 lost its girlfriend!
> 
> :lol:


I thought he lost his double wide.


----------



## bb37

LameLefty said:


> D12 lost its girlfriend!


No, but its grandma may have gotten run over by a reindeer.


----------



## JLucPicard

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...


Wow - I turn off signatures (no offense to those who use them to report D12's status!) and I show just 154 pages. I guess that does make quite a difference!


----------



## sigma1914

JLucPicard said:


> Wow - I turn off signatures (no offense to those who use them to report D12's status!) and I show just 154 pages. I guess that does make quite a difference!


Actually, there's a setting under UserCP as to how many posts per page are shown. A nifty feature.


----------



## tcusta00

JLucPicard said:


> Wow - I turn off signatures (no offense to those who use them to report D12's status!) and I show just 154 pages. I guess that does make quite a difference!


That's weird - because I just tried turning off signatures and (as expected) it still shows the same number of pages and posts/per.


----------



## BudShark

James Long said:


> The satellite is not dead. Death must be reported and there is no report.
> 
> The satellite is "fine" ... Which is the same response one expects out of a casual acquaintance or coworker when asked "how are you doing". They may have suffered more than a person in a country music song (lost their wife, girlfriend, dog and truck) but everything is "fine".


I'm not dead...

Gotta love Monty!!


----------



## markrubi

bb37 said:


> No, but its grandma may have gotten run over by a reindeer.


It's your avatars fault.:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Santi360HD said:


> 246 pages and counting...my question is easy
> 
> is the satellite Dead??
> 
> what's the general consensus here?


General consensus hasn't been achieved. 

As James Long has posted, it can't be dead. Dead would need to be reported to investors of both DIRECTV and Boeing. (So would "very ill".)

Several moderators have communicated with sources at DIRECTV. The word is D12 is fine and will go into service as planned. Our sources are pretty reliable... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Didn't have a chance to post this morning, and not really allowed to get on from work.....some of you might think this will sound strange but I said a prayer for D12 last night before going to bed. I know its only TV, HDTV, but this whole thing has been a little stressful for me.


----------



## grooves12

Groundhog45 said:


> It says they want to ensure proper operation of the satellite. Sounds like they are just not finished checking everything out. Still no hint of problems.


DirecTV is a publicly traded company and as a result has to be VERY careful of what they say pubicly. If they announce problems at first sight, and then are able to resolve them, they can be accused of stock price manipulation.

It is better to be ABSOLUTELY sure there is no resolving the issue and knowing exactly how extensive the problem is before you make ANY mention of the problem or they could set themselves up for other legal liabilities.

Its pretty clear that something is not quite right... what it is is anyone's guess. But, I'm guessing it is a lot more than just "they need more time to finish testing." DirecTV is WELL-versed in what it takes to launch and test a satellite, and for them to now go 2 months past their initial testing window says there is something wrong.


----------



## Tele-TV

TheRatPatrol said:


> Didn't have a chance to post this morning, and not really allowed to get on from work.....some of you might think this will sound strange but *I said a prayer for D12 last night* before going to bed. I know its only TV, HDTV, but this whole thing has been a little stressful for me.


:allthumbs :lol:


----------



## CockerKingdom

That meteorite I saw last night, must have been D12!


----------



## Doug Brott




----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> Didn't have a chance to post this morning, and not really allowed to get on from work.....some of you might think this will sound strange but I said a prayer for D12 last night before going to bed. I know its only TV, HDTV, but this whole thing has been a little stressful for me.


Yep, prayers are always good. 

Post#1 and #2 all up-to-date.


----------



## ejjames

LameLefty said:


> I've never been a huge Steve Miller fan; I don't think I've ever seen that album cover before.
> 
> However, I HAVE seen examples of the first two Martin signature edition acoustic models, the 00-37KSM (curly koa with an Engelmann spruce top) and 00-37K2SM (curly koa top, back and sides). Absolutely stunning visually, and among the best fingerpicking models I've ever heard.


My Grand parents used to play barn dances in ND. She would play the accordion, and he would play a left-handed banjo, right handed! So everything was backwards. That's how he taught himself. What I would give to time travel back to see that.


----------



## TBlazer07

Doug Brott said:


>


The things that can be found on the 'net are truly amazing.


----------



## Rikinky

Doug Brott said:


>


ROTFL!! !rolling


----------



## am7crew

dont panic, keep forking over your money for the *hope* of them coming through all tho all signs point to problems.


----------



## trainman

am7crew said:


> dont panic, keep forking over your money for the *hope* of them coming through all tho *all signs point to problems*.


Not _all_ signs. For example, this one points to U.S. 101:


----------



## Rikinky

am7crew said:


> dont panic, keep forking over your money for the *hope* of them coming through all tho all signs point to problems.


HuH? I'm going to bed I can't take anymore hysteria. My head is going to explode!:barf:


----------



## Tele-TV

Post #6180 - Rikinky 's Response to Doug Brott's Video.


Rikinky said:


> ROTFL!! !rolling


+Million


----------



## inkahauts

am7crew said:


> dont panic, keep forking over your money for the *hope* of them coming through all tho all signs point to problems.


I have never paid anyone for money based on what might be available at some point in the future in terms as of a service...


----------



## cdhinch

Doug Brott said:


>


:thats:


----------



## spartanstew

JLucPicard said:


> Wow - I turn off signatures (no offense to those who use them to report D12's status!) and I show just 154 pages. I guess that does make quite a difference!


Signatures on or off has nothing to do with the number of posts per page. That's a constant that is set up by each user (or left on default).


----------



## matt

Doug Brott said:


>


ROFLCOPTER!!!

EDIT: The related vids are funny too!


----------



## viperlmw

Doug Brott said:


>


I'm crying, I laughed so hard!


----------



## forecheck

OMG, that video is awesome! Thanks Doug.


----------



## matt

I was looking at the latest STA.

"*DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to communicate with the DIRECTV 12 satellite for* in−orbit testing *and* *telemetry, tracking and control operations at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location for up to 30 days.* DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."

Makes sense to me. They don't have permission to drift it, and they were going to run out of permission to control it. If this HADN'T been granted then I might say the sky was going to fall, but it seems to me that this was done to keep it from falling.


----------



## Sackchamp56

matt1124 said:


> I was looking at the latest STA.
> 
> "*DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to communicate with the DIRECTV 12 satellite for* in−orbit testing *and* *telemetry, tracking and control operations at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location for up to 30 days.* DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."
> 
> Makes sense to me. They don't have permission to drift it, and they were going to run out of permission to control it. If this HADN'T been granted then I might say the sky was going to fall, but it seems to me that this was done to keep it from falling.


I like that explanation.


----------



## TBlazer07

trainman said:


> Not _all_ signs. For example, this one points to U.S. 101:


No, actually it points to the curb.


----------



## smiddy

TBlazer07 said:


> No, actually it points to the curb.


No, what is not being shown here, as you can imagine, a small peice of sky that has fallen. Jeeze, can't you people see anything? :lol:





Thanks Doug, awesome animation!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


>


*This has to be the absolute funniest thing I have seen here at DBSTalk in years - thanks Doug.*

!rolling !rolling !rolling

I now stream this via TVersity and MediaShare to all my HD DVRs and HD receivers here. Every guest or family member here will be required to watch it (at least once) before anything else can be viewed - new rule.


----------



## eibook

Doug Brott said:


>


I have been lurking, and didn't want to get involved in this lunacy, but that is the funniest thing I have seen in quite a while. Thanks Doug.


----------



## Santi360HD

reading some of the posts a few pages back truly clears some things up...one about it being a publically traded company they cannot jump the gun and give any news

imagine the big sack of nothing we'd hear if it was a privately traded company...then again as a public company goes...the big sack of nothing probably wouldnt be any different from the nothingness we'eve heard to this point....

Found the video Doug posted to be funny and the kind of doublespeak of the definitions of On service or In service to truly define those that know and those that dont know whats happening here. I do hope everything is fine and i wont have to run like chicken little...9/14 is the end of my obligation to directv per the HD box i hooked up back in 2008...so many plusses & minuses on going back to time warner...

Cmon DTV give me a reason to stay here??


----------



## leww37334

matt1124 said:


> I was looking at the latest STA.
> 
> "*DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to communicate with the DIRECTV 12 satellite for* in−orbit testing *and* *telemetry, tracking and control operations at the 76 degree W.L. orbital location for up to 30 days.* DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force."
> 
> Makes sense to me. They don't have permission to drift it, and they were going to run out of permission to control it. If this HADN'T been granted then I might say the sky was going to fall, but it seems to me that this was done to keep it from falling.


Possibly the thirty day extension was requested in order to provide Directv management enough time to unload their stock.....


----------



## PhilS

leww37334 said:


> Possibly the thirty day extension was requested in order to provide Directv management enough time to unload their stock.....


Note S-4 filing to the SEC dated 4/16/10. "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we
expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part
of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets.."

They don't mess with the SEC unless they want lawsuits.


----------



## LameLefty

PhilS said:


> Note S-4 filing to the SEC dated 4/16/10. "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we
> expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part
> of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets.."
> 
> They don't mess with the SEC unless they want lawsuits.


Lawsuits are the least of their worries. Criminal sentences often flow from screwing around with SEC filings.


----------



## jash

why would they go to all the trouble of moving those movie channels around if they weren't about to light up some more?


----------



## carl6

LameLefty said:


> Lawsuits are the least of their worries. Criminal sentences often flow from screwing around with SEC filings.


Unless you are in the banking industry.


----------



## Herdfan

I have tried to stay out of this as well, but does anyone remember any of the time frames in which the Issues with D10 were disclosed? ie during testing, final parking, after in-service etc.


----------



## FHSPSU67

carl6 said:


> Unless you are in the banking industry.


Precisely!


----------



## Alan Gordon

PhilS said:


> Note S-4 filing to the SEC dated 4/16/10. "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we
> expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. *As part
> of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets.."*


WOW!! With my market getting locals, I figured they were going to add a WHOLE LOT MORE than 19 additional markets.  

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Herdfan said:


> I have tried to stay out of this as well, but does anyone remember any of the time frames in which the Issues with D10 were disclosed? ie during testing, final parking, after in-service etc.


After D10 reached 103°, there was a press release noting the issues with the spot beams. It went "live" a couple of weeks later.http://investor.directv.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=286380​


----------



## RD in Fla

Doug, great video. One thing I can't figure out is why the FCC hasn't approved an STA for the drift? Those here in the know have indicated that the FCC's process for approval is typically a rubber stamp so if anybody has any knowledge or theory as to why no there has been no approval for the drift that would be great to hear/read. Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

RD in Fla said:


> Doug, great video. One thing I can't figure out is why the FCC hasn't approved an STA for the drift? Those here in the know have indicated that the FCC's process for approval is typically a rubber stamp so if anybody has any knowledge or theory as to why no there has been no approval for the drift that would be great to hear/read. Thanks.


Have stated it a few times, the FCC has tended to approve filings shortly before when they are needed. Not always the case, but with D10/D11/D12 that has been often and typical. The actual launch filing wasn't approved until just before the launch.


----------



## Sixto

With all the hysteria this week, figured would post my thoughts again ... 

There are a number of people with contacts at DirecTV, with the overall impression that D12 will be fine, and new HD is coming, just as expected.

It also seems fairly obvious that there's something that DirecTV wanted to further test, and that testing is taking some time (based on the extensions). It may be minor. But there's something. Again, it may be very minor, it may even be something unique that they just decided they might as well test while they had the chance.

Simple as that.


----------



## raoul5788

Sixto said:


> With all the hysteria this week, figured would post my thoughts again ...
> 
> There are a number of people with contacts at DirecTV, with the overall impression that D12 will be fine, and new HD is coming, just as expected.
> 
> It also seems fairly obvious that there's something that DirecTV wanted to further test, and that testing is taking some time (based on the extensions). It may be minor. But there's something. Again, it may be very minor, it may even be something unique that they just decided they might as well test while they had the chance.
> 
> Simple as that.


Jeez, if you are going to get all sensible about this, what fun is that?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Welcome back, Sixto!

Always glad for another voice of reason.


----------



## JLucPicard

tcusta00 said:


> That's weird - because I just tried turning off signatures and (as expected) it still shows the same number of pages and posts/per.





spartanstew said:


> Signatures on or off has nothing to do with the number of posts per page. That's a constant that is set up by each user (or left on default).


Wow - so it is! I've been around here so long I don't even remember setting that! So it's just a matter of me setting at 40 posts per page - that makes sense.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Doug Brott said:


>


Simply brilliant. !rolling


----------



## sigma1914

JLucPicard said:


> Wow - so it is! I've been around here so long I don't even remember setting that! So it's just a matter of me setting at 40 posts per page - that makes sense.


I tried to tell ya. :lol: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2426310#post2426310


----------



## cebbigh

What would be the end result if D12 has a similar problem with Spotbeams as D10 did?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome back, Sixto!
> 
> Always glad for another voice of reason.


That may end up sending Chicken Little packing...

...then again...doubt it....


----------



## curt8403

cebbigh said:


> What would be the end result if D12 has a similar problem with Spotbeams as D10 did?


 just a delay with locals.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That may end up sending Chicken Little packing...
> 
> ...then again...doubt it....


I'd be happier to see D12 packing (to a new location).


----------



## cebbigh

Whatever the delay is tied to, the only thing I hope is that it doesn't effect national HD in a negative way. Malone seemed nonchalant to national HD. If there is a cause for the delays beyond just general testing and it runs counter to Directv plans for PPV or locals, and forces them to add more national HD instead, maybe the delay isn't such a bad thing.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Hutchinshouse said:


> I'd be happier to see D12 packing (to a new location).


No, you'd be happier to see Travel Channel HD added. 

Doug, great video. And welcome back Sixto. I'm starting to feel better about things now.


----------



## freerein100

cebbigh said:


> What would be the end result if D12 has a similar problem with Spotbeams as D10 did?


Directv never names a sat with an even number and never adds spotbeams at 103 they are both jinxed :lol:


----------



## sctnun

Hi all, I work for Jet Propulsion Factories we're a division of Whirlpool Bath Corp. This is only my second post here, my first was years back when my company may have inadvertently disrupted the positioning of D10. If you read my first post you will see that I was greatly relieved we were able to fix things.

A few years back as D10 was being sent up into orbit, the newly landed Mars Rover was having a problem getting out of sleep mode and couldn't unfold itself into its "rover" position. The distress signals the Rover gave out interfered with the newly orbiting D10 satellite. D10 thought it was receiving a signal to move, and it headed out towards Mars orbit. Luckily we were able to transmit repair code to the Rover and the distress signal stopped allowing Directv to take back control. Problem solved.

I'm afraid I have some bad news. It seems the now mostly dead Rover is again of course distressed. Although the rover can't move it does have enough power to blast out its SOS signal. That signal has taken control of D12 and leading it straight to Mars. There is nothing at this point that can be done to save D12. It's pretty bad.

In an odd irony Mars will soon be able to receive the Travel Channel in HD.


----------



## sigma1914

Cue the Chicken Little Clan.


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Sixto said:


> With all the hysteria this week, figured would post my thoughts again ...
> 
> There are a number of people with contacts at DirecTV, with the overall impression that D12 will be fine, and new HD is coming, just as expected.
> 
> It also seems fairly obvious that there's something that DirecTV wanted to further test, and that testing is taking some time (based on the extensions). It may be minor. But there's something. Again, it may be very minor, it may even be something unique that they just decided they might as well test while they had the chance.
> 
> Simple as that.


As I parse your words, I sense they are carefully chosen, perhaps necessarily so, and I do appreciate them. But why is it the people "with contacts at DirecTV" have only an "overall impression" about the situation? An overall *impression*? That's not really very definite. If the only thing these people are left with, after having discussed the satellite's status with their DirecTV contacts, is an "overall impression" that D12 is "fine" (defined to mean apparently anything more than totally non-functional), either their DirecTV sources are not absolutely sure themselves, or these sources are being intentionally vague, perhaps to allow for plausible deniability later.

You have also verbalized what some others here have been unwilling to acknowledge, that these extensions are unusual, and indicate something out of the ordinary is happening or not happening that requires more "testing" than was originally anticipated. Of course, as you twice remind us, the matter prompting the additional testing "may" be minor, or even very minor. From a probablility standpoint, that has to be true. But if something may be one way, it also might be another.

Given how unpleasant it must have been for DirecTV to pull down the "200 HD channels" on their website and in all their marketing, I can see how some might think any delay at this time might not fall into the "minor" or "very minor" categories. Fortunately, I'm a man who believes in the odds, since by definition they accurately predict the future most of the time. And the odds are in favor of only mnor difficulties that will be remedied in time to make DirecTV a pay per view movie powerhouse, or whatever management plans for D12.

Again, I really appreciate your comments.


----------



## T-Hefner

I'm keeping the faith that there is NOTHING wrong with D12 and it's just some extra testing they are doing....and if there is something wrong I hope it doesn't affect NATIONAL HD at all...

Hoping we will all be laughing bout this in a few months when were watching our new hd on d12 =)


----------



## Alan Gordon

cebbigh said:


> If there is a cause for the delays beyond just general testing and it runs counter to Directv plans for PPV or locals, and forces them to add more national HD instead, maybe the delay isn't such a bad thing.


Spoken like somebody not expecting HD-LIL off of D12! 

I stated it in chat last night, but again, KUDOS on the video Doug. I've seen it three or four times already, and even showed it off to somebody (after attempting to explain the D12 thread this past week).

~Alan


----------



## DJSix

"It's the end of D12 as we know it, and I feel fine...."

In all seriousness, I have complete faith in the mods. As much as I'd love to have new HD channels, I'm busy with Pacific, Treme, Tudors, Netflix, etc to really care if there's any delay in the drift. The drift will happen and new HD will come.

Now back to the beer talk...

Ryan


----------



## Alan Gordon

whatliesbeyond said:


> Given how unpleasant it must have been for DirecTV to pull down the "200 HD channels" on their website and in all their marketing


Apparently, that didn't have anything to do with D12. Either that, or their lawyers didn't get the memo:



PhilS said:


> Note S-4 filing to the SEC dated 4/16/10. "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets.."


~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

whatliesbeyond said:


> As I parse your words, I sense they are carefully chosen, perhaps necessarily so, and I do appreciate them. But why is it the people "with contacts at DirecTV" have only an "overall impression" about the situation? An overall *impression*? That's not really very definite. If the only thing these people are left with, after having discussed the satellite's status with their DirecTV contacts, is an "overall impression" that D12 is "fine" (defined to mean apparently anything more than totally non-functional), either their DirecTV sources are not absolutely sure themselves, or these sources are being intentionally vague, perhaps to allow for plausible deniability later.


OR (which is reality here) .. we don't work for DIRECTV nor do we have NDAs with DIRECTV. What does that mean? The same thing it does with every company. We are only told so much. Do you REALLY think DIRECTV shares all of their deep dark corporate secrets with us? I've been told things are fine by someone who definitely knows the answer to the question. That's pretty much all we get folks. And in this case, fine is fine .. there is no need to word parse what "fine" means.


----------



## T-Hefner

Doug Brott said:


> OR (which is reality here) .. we don't work for DIRECTV nor do we have NDAs with DIRECTV. What does that mean? The same thing it does with every company. We are only told so much. Do you REALLY think DIRECTV shares all of their deep dark corporate secrets with us? I've been told things are fine by someone who definitely knows the answer to the question. That's pretty much all we get folks. And in this case, fine is fine .. there is no need to word parse what "fine" means.


I agree with ya, we can go back and forth on what "fine" means....but it aint gonna do any good..and until I hear different I'm not going to speculate..

We gotta ride it out, and I'm sure everything is all good.....


----------



## davidjplatt

I guess I don't understand how everyone became experts on whether or not something is wrong with D12.

The one thing that I do suspect is that if anything was seriously wrong with D12, DirecTV is a public company (NASDAQ: DTV) and would have to disclose something that would directly affect their future earnings and stock value.

How could they legally hold back that kind of information? I doubt they could and remain within the limits of the law. If they did not fully disclose and insiders sold stock between now and the time that major problems with D12 were revealed, all of the insider's trades could be considered insider trading since the issues were revealed so late in the game.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> OR (which is reality here) .. we don't work for DIRECTV nor do we have NDAs with DIRECTV. What does that mean? The same thing it does with every company. We are only told so much. Do you REALLY think DIRECTV shares all of their deep dark corporate secrets with us? I've been told things are fine by someone who definitely knows the answer to the question. That's pretty much all we get folks. And in this case, fine is fine .. there is no need to word parse what "fine" means.


ie, you are only told what they want you to know. Whether "fine" is really fine, only time will tell.


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


>


Excellent one Doug. I can't stop laughing. !rollingx10


----------



## T-Hefner

davidjplatt said:


> The one thing that I do suspect is that if anything was seriously wrong with D12, DirecTV is a public company (NASDAQ: DTV) and would have to disclose something that would directly affect their future earnings and stock value.
> 
> How could they legally hold back that kind of information? I doubt they could and remain within the limits of the law. If they did not fully disclose and insiders sold stock between now and the time that major problems with D12 were revealed, all of the insider's trades could be considered insider trading since the issues were revealed so late in the game.


I agree with ya, I dont see how they could hold something like that back...


----------



## curt8403

some words to look up 
Tot
Muerto
νεκρός
mort
guasto
мертво

add Non, or Not, to each


----------



## dalime




----------



## cebbigh

Nicht tot. Not to be confused with untot (undead) or die Untoten (the undead). Perhaps tot stellen (playing dead). Much better than tot geboren (still born).


----------



## curt8403

cebbigh said:


> Nicht tot. Not to be confused with untot (undead) or die Untoten (the undead). Perhaps tot stellen (playing dead). Much better than tot geboren (still born).


 oh that would be horrible (to have an undead satellite)


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

curt8403 said:


> oh that would be horrible (to have an undead satellite)


OH MY GOD!!! D12 is going to start eating our brains?????:eek2:

I get the feeling it's already started.:sure:


----------



## curt8403

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> OH MY GOD!!! D12 is going to start eating our brains?????:eek2:
> 
> I get the feeling it's already started.:sure:


I was thinking more like a vampire that would suck the energy (or life) from D10 if it gets moved to the 103 slot. :girlscrea!danger:


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

curt8403 said:


> I was thinking more like a vampire that would suck the energy (or life) from D10 if it gets moved to the 103 slot. :girlscrea!danger:


But you're forgetting what BSS stands for *B*rain *S*ucking *S*atelite!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> But you're forgetting what BSS stands for *B*rain *S*ucking *S*atelite!!!


All satellites used for television have that ability! 

~Alan


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Alan Gordon said:


> All satellites used for television have that ability!
> 
> ~Alan


That's why I switched from aluminum to cast iron:lol:


----------



## iceturkee

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> OH MY GOD!!! D12 is going to start eating our brains?????:eek2:
> 
> I get the feeling it's already started.:sure:


cue emerson, lake and palmer's boffo album......brain salad surgery!


----------



## Piratefan98

SILENCE !!


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Piratefan98 said:


> SILENCE !!


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Doug Brott said:


> OR (which is reality here) .. we don't work for DIRECTV nor do we have NDAs with DIRECTV. What does that mean? The same thing it does with every company. We are only told so much. Do you REALLY think DIRECTV shares all of their deep dark corporate secrets with us? I've been told things are fine by someone who definitely knows the answer to the question. That's pretty much all we get folks. And in this case, fine is fine .. there is no need to word parse what "fine" means.


That's fine. 

Actually, I used to think I knew what fine meant, but I was recently reminded in one of these posts by someone who is pretty sensible and reliable, that "fine" has a range of meanings, extending from "Not too good, but right now I can't tell you (or don't want to tell you for some reason) what the real situation is" to "super perfect."

And I certainly understand that your information is second-hand (in my line of work we call this hearsay), and that we apparently don't have anyone who posts to this forum with first-hand information gained through his or her employment with Boeing or DirecTV or the FCC, or the technical or legal firms they employ. But as you note, however reliable your source may be, he or she is not going to tell you something that would be a trigger for an SEC disclosure. And even telling you they can't tell you might be telling you too much (yes, this sentence actually makes sense, to a lawyer anyway).

And speaking of the SEC, a disclosure is not required for every problem that comes up in a listed company. A problem has to be significant, in the sense of having the potential to materially influence the stock price of the company. Furthermore, even if a problem exists and is significant, if the company has a good faith belief the problem can be solved in the reasonably foreseeable future, I can't believe disclosure of the problem would nonetheless be required.

I'm normally a pessimist, but the only thing of concern we know of at this point is that some additional, unexpected testing is being undertaken. This is mysterious and possibly troubling, given the strong desire of DirecTV to put the bird into operation as soon as reasonably possible. But very smart people have worked on putting this satellite into orbit. A relatively large amount of money is riding on its success. Statistically, the chances of something really major being wrong with D12 has got to be pretty small.

But it's not non-existent . . . .


----------



## jsg

Some comments here have confused me (and that's pretty easy to do)  . From reading post 1 I assumed that the spotbeam facilities of D-12 wouldn't be used unless it was used as in its backup capacity. Others have said things that make me believe that they considered the new satellite to be a part of a current plan to increase Local in Local HD.

Do we think D12 is meant to add spotbeam capacity for current use or does it simply contain those facilites as an in-orbit spare for other satellites?


----------



## curt8403

jsg said:


> Some comments here have confused me (and that's pretty easy to do)  . From reading post 1 I assumed that the spotbeam facilities of D-12 wouldn't be used unless it was used as in its backup capacity. Others have said things that make me believe that they considered the new satellite to be a part of a current plan to increase Local in Local HD.
> 
> Do we think D12 is meant to add spotbeam capacity for current use or does it simply contain those facilites as an in-orbit spare for other satellites?


I suspect that some of the spotbeams on D12 were (Are) intended for new markets, and some are (Were) intended as backups


----------



## georule

And the people who are claiming today it is dead as a doornail will, when D* finally admits what the hangnail was, crow "SEE I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!!!!!!" Yeah, the internet --it doesn't change.


----------



## Doug Brott

whatliesbeyond said:


> But as you note, however reliable your source may be, he or she is not going to tell you something that would be a trigger for an SEC disclosure. And even telling you they can't tell you might be telling you too much (yes, this sentence actually makes sense, to a lawyer anyway).


When I ask and am told it's fine .. It's fine, meaning OK, meaning not bad meaning things are going the right way meaning there's nothing to "read" into it.

If I were to ask and told nothing .. That's a different situation altogether now isn't it.

Yes, this is hearsay .. But it's what we got folks .. There hasn't been a press release or a general statement by anyone with authority over the project. Why is that? Because nothing is materially different than the last announcement which if I recall correctly, the launch was successful. :shrug:


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh, and the real definition of "fine" .. When DIRECTV 12 gets parked in a few weeks, we'll get more HD. Pretty simple if you think about it. The key word now is wait.


----------



## David MacLeod

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and the real definition of "fine" .. When DIRECTV 12 gets parked in a few weeks, we'll get more HD. Pretty simple if you think about it. The key word now is wait.


fine then...be that way


----------



## MartyS

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and the real definition of "fine" .. When DIRECTV 12 gets parked in a few weeks, we'll get more HD. Pretty simple if you think about it. The key word now is wait.





David MacLeod said:


> fine then...be that way


And that's fine with me.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and the real definition of "fine" .. When DIRECTV 12 gets parked in a few weeks, we'll get more HD. Pretty simple if you think about it. The key word now is wait.


Smarty threw a party and no one came. 

~Alan


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Great video Doug. :lol:

Welcome back Sixto. Hope your vacation was "fine". :lol:


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, and the real definition of "fine" .. When DIRECTV 12 gets parked in a few weeks, we'll get more HD. Pretty simple if you think about it.


Hair is "fine". As in "How's your hair?". "Fine."



Doug Brott said:


> The key word now is wait.


What's that supposed to mean??????


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Doug Brott said:


> The key word now is wait.





timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> What's that supposed to mean??????


D12 is fine and is *wait*ing to move. :lol:


----------



## inkahauts

Alan Gordon said:


> WOW!! With my market getting locals, I figured they were going to add a WHOLE LOT MORE than 19 additional markets.
> 
> ~Alan


I have a feeling a few things are in play here.. some markets will add more channels, some will be added that are announced, and some will be added that have not yet been announced..


----------



## D-Bamatech

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


SOOOOOON!

_1 a obsolete : at once : immediately b : without undue time lapse : before long <soon after sunrise>
2 : in a prompt manner : speedily <as soon as possible> <the sooner the better> <no sooner said than done>_

Find another word to use already to help stop the massive sub migration that Is and has been on going.

BTW
Do i sense ........
Stock worries here now toooooo? :lol:


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

D-Bamatech said:


> Find another word to use already to help stop the massive sub migration that Is and has been on going.


How about "eventually". Soon sure beats "Just a couple more seconds..."


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> With all the hysteria this week, figured would post my thoughts again ...
> 
> There are a number of people with contacts at DirecTV, with the overall impression that D12 will be fine, and new HD is coming, just as expected.
> 
> It also seems fairly obvious that there's something that DirecTV wanted to further test, and that testing is taking some time (based on the extensions). It may be minor. But there's something. Again, it may be very minor, it may even be something unique that they just decided they might as well test while they had the chance.
> 
> Simple as that.


I still think they are testing something new, that has nothing to do with hardware, but rather some sort of compression or modulation scheme to do hi speed VOD downloads, or something of that nature...

They have mentioned to many times about being able to increase their HD VOD library for people, etc...

Hows that for conspiracy theories?


----------



## inkahauts

jsg said:


> Some comments here have confused me (and that's pretty easy to do)  . From reading post 1 I assumed that the spotbeam facilities of D-12 wouldn't be used unless it was used as in its backup capacity. Others have said things that make me believe that they considered the new satellite to be a part of a current plan to increase Local in Local HD.
> 
> Do we think D12 is meant to add spotbeam capacity for current use or does it simply contain those facilites as an in-orbit spare for other satellites?


From what has been reported by Directv, it looks like most of D10's load of spotbeams will be transfered to D12, D10 will become the backup for spots, and then they will add some more markets, but not sure on what sat the new markets will come from...


----------



## slimoli

inkahauts said:


> I still think they are testing something new, that has nothing to do with hardware, but rather some sort of compression or modulation scheme to do hi speed VOD downloads, or something of that nature...
> 
> They have mentioned to many times about being able to increase their HD VOD library for people, etc...
> 
> Hows that for conspiracy theories?


Reading the posts from reliable people here since February, it seems whatever happened was not planned at all. Satracer told us in February we would get new HD channels "sooner", which suggested at that time things were really going well and better than expected. If Directv was "planning" to keep testing at 76 for a longer time, Satracer would never say that.

I don't know what is going on and continue to hope we get the channels by June but I guess something "not expected" came up.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> WOW!! With my market getting locals, I figured they were going to add a WHOLE LOT MORE than 19 additional markets.





inkahauts said:


> I have a feeling a few things are in play here.. some markets will add more channels, some will be added that are announced, and some will be added that have not yet been announced..


Yeah, I too have a feeling several things are in play here.... because while only three have markets have been announced as coming to DirecTV, I know of two more, and I have difficulty believing those 5 DMAs are coming before multiple other DMAs.

Whether their plans involve balancing more efficiantly with the other satellites, or their mention of 19 was simply downplaying their intentions due to competitors, I don't know, but I have trouble believing the 19 number.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

slimoli said:


> Satracer told us in February we would get new HD channels "sooner", which suggested at that time things were really going well and better than expected. If Directv was "planning" to keep testing at 76 for a longer time, Satracer would never say that.


Have you ever thought we were originally going to get the channels in September?! 

~Alan


----------



## slimoli

Alan Gordon said:


> Have you ever thought we were originally going to get the channels in September?!
> 
> ~Alan


What year ? Never thought September 2009 and hope we get them way before September 2010. I already lost Breaking Bad 3rd season in HD and hope I can have Mad Man in August. I only care about very few channels, those I actually watch, and only miss AMC and Travel.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> Have you ever thought we were originally going to get the channels in September?!





slimoli said:


> What year ? Never thought September 2009 and hope we get them way before September 2010. I already lost Breaking Bad 3rd season in HD and hope I can have Mad Man in August. I only care about very few channels, those I actually watch, and only miss AMC and Travel.


You said that Satelliteracer stated we were getting HD channels "sooner", and that things must have been going better than expected.

However, May (or June) is "sooner" than September.

I feel for you though... I gave up watching "Mad Men" in SD as the Blu-ray release is FANTASTIC! I own S1 of "Breaking Bad" on Blu-ray. Will pick up S2 this Summer.

However, you should be glad you only care about a few channels! While I'm admittedly the most ticked by not having BBC America tonight in time for the "Doctor Who" debut, there's quite a few channels I'd LIKE to have.

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE . . .



Code:


Name			DIRECTV 12
NORAD #			36131
COSPAR designator	2009-075-A  
Epoch (UTC)		2010-04-17 18:00:10
Orbit # at Epoch	118
Inclination		0.070
RA of A. Node		47.937
Eccentricity		0.0001583
Argument of Perigee	41.989
Revs per day		1.00271945
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 780 x 35 793 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		309.858
Element number / age	157 / 0 day(s)


----------



## slimoli

Alan Gordon said:


> You said that Satelliteracer stated we were getting HD channels "sooner", and that things must have been going better than expected.
> 
> However, May (or June) is "sooner" than September.
> 
> I feel for you though... I gave up watching "Mad Men" in SD as the Blu-ray release is FANTASTIC! I own S1 of "Breaking Bad" on Blu-ray. Will pick up S2 this Summer.
> 
> However, you should be glad you only care about a few channels! While I'm admittedly the most ticked by not having BBC America tonight in time for the "Doctor Who" debut, there's quite a few channels I'd LIKE to have.
> 
> ~Alan


I'm watching Breaking Bad season 3 on Amazon VOD HD (got 100 bucks credit when I bought a bluray player). Looks good , almost bluray. 
I also would like more HD channels but AMC and Travel will make me happy.


----------



## bjlc

Piratefan98 said:


> SILENCE !!


oh look its the Directv die hard kool aid drinkers and suppliers thereof, listening to what is coming from the home office..

all is well.


----------



## Doug Brott

bjlc said:


> oh look its the Directv die hard kool aid drinkers and suppliers thereof, listening to what is coming from the home office..
> 
> all is well.


Oh, you're right .. The Sky is Falling!


----------



## tcusta00

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, you're right .. The Sky is Falling!


It is?? Is D12 okay? Ok, now you're starting to worry me. Seriously, is something wrong? Has it fallen out of orbit? Perhaps I should cancel my DirecTV service now before it's too late. This is the first I've heard of any trouble. What are we gonna do? WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO? Please, somebody help! I can't believe that this is happening to ME. Woe is me.


----------



## John4924

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, you're right .. The Sky is Falling!


The sky may not be falling, but the sun has been erupting!

This is some cool HD video of the sun taken by NASA.

Could this have affected D12


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> I still think they are testing something new, that has nothing to do with hardware, but rather some sort of compression or modulation scheme to do hi speed VOD downloads, or something of that nature...


I don't know why you'd continue to think this when you've been told that this is not the type of testing they're doing at 76. Modulation doesn't even come into play here, much less compression or any sort of broadcast content. They're checking out transponder health and capabilities with unmodulated carrier signals. No actual content is being broadcast.


----------



## Fog627

Is there a realistic _possibility_ of having VOD via the sat? Believe it or not, some of us do not have high speed internet available. I have dial-up (48Kbps MAX--that's right!!) and would love to have access to VOD. (Please no "why don't you get sat internet" responses -- too expensive for my budget!!)


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, you're right .. The Sky is Falling!


No one is saying the sky is falling, some people just think D12 is falling, that is not the same as saying the sky is falling. If the sky is falling, D12 is still there obviously, then D12 is rising It cannot be falling and rising at the same time. So D12 is not falling, but it is obviously not rising either, so it is at the same location, see it is not too hard to figure it out after all. I promise this one in my hand will be my last shot for tonight.


----------



## P Smith

If the sky is falling, then all objects there must falling too !!!


----------



## ATARI

There is no gravity -- the earth sucks.


----------



## GregLee

jacmyoung said:


> If the sky is falling, D12 is still there obviously, then D12 is rising


That's an interesting point. If D12 comes to be higher relative to the falling sky, its position should start to drift, which we are of course hoping for. So the falling of the sky would actually be a good thing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> No one is saying the sky is falling, some people just think D12 is falling, that is not the same as saying the sky is falling. If the sky is falling, D12 is still there obviously, then D12 is rising It cannot be falling and rising at the same time. So D12 is not falling, but it is obviously not rising either, so it is at the same location, see it is not too hard to figure it out after all. I promise this one in my hand will be my last shot for tonight.


Huh? Lots of people are saying or have said the sky is falling (and without any form of smilie...) Don't ask me why some people are like that, they just are.

Some samples:


slimoli said:


> Reading the posts from reliable people here since February, it seems whatever happened was not planned at all. Satracer told us in February we would get new HD channels "sooner", which suggested at that time things were really going well and better than expected. If Directv was "planning" to keep testing at 76 for a longer time, Satracer would never say that.
> 
> I don't know what is going on and continue to hope we get the channels by June but I guess something "not expected" came up.


Why is it when the news is good that is "planned" and when the news is not quite as good it is "not planned"? All of this is very likely planned. One doesn't spend $150M (or more) building and launching a satellite without some pretty good planning. Even D10s problems could have had plans. (Or sections of plans, most likely.)



raott said:


> ie, you are only told what they want you to know. Whether "fine" is really fine, only time will tell.


Another of the long list of people forgetting the SEC rules and DIRECTV history. D10 was reported. If D12 was seriously ill, we would not be told it is fine--that would break so many laws. The people we talk to aren't interested in going to jail or causing legal nightmares. 


davidjplatt said:


> I guess I don't understand how everyone became experts on whether or not something is wrong with D12.
> 
> The one thing that I do suspect is that if anything was seriously wrong with D12, DirecTV is a public company (NASDAQ: DTV) and would have to disclose something that would directly affect their future earnings and stock value.
> 
> How could they legally hold back that kind of information? I doubt they could and remain within the limits of the law. If they did not fully disclose and insiders sold stock between now and the time that major problems with D12 were revealed, all of the insider's trades could be considered insider trading since the issues were revealed so late in the game.


Thank you. Someone who is reading, thinking, analyzing. 

It is so simple. If "not fine", we don't get told anything until the press release. If we're told it is fine and it ain't, lawsuits happen.

Ergo it is fine.

:scratch: what makes this so complicated?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

PhilS said:


> Note S-4 filing to the SEC dated 4/16/10. "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we
> expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part
> of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets.."
> 
> They don't mess with the SEC unless they want lawsuits.


There is also this statement in the filing that talks about more HD channels when D12 goes into service:

"In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."

This document is *extremely* strong evidence that the wait for new HD channels to start coming from D12 will be over very soon now... by the end of June at the latest.

There is no way that DIRECTV could make the statements that they did in the document if there were significant problems with the non-BSS portion of the satellite which is going to be used to provide the increase in HD channels and capacity that the document describes.

The full document that was filed with the SEC is here:
http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-10-3833


----------



## cforrest

Then there is this on page 34 of the S-4 in pdf form:

"For example, we purchased launch insurance covering a portion of our DIRECTV 12 satellite, which we launched at the end of 2009, and launch vehicle costs in the event of a total loss of the satellite prior to separation from the launch vehicle, but *did not purchase in-orbit insurance for it.*

In-orbit risks include malfunctions, commonly referred to as anomalies, and collisions with meteoroids, other spacecraft or other space debris. Anomalies occur as a result of various factors, such as satellite manufacturing errors, problems with the power systems or control systems of the satellites and general failures resulting from operating satellites in the harsh space environment. We work closely with our satellite manufacturers to determine and eliminate the potential causes of anomalies in new satellites and provide for redundancies of critical components in the satellites as well as having backup satellite capacity. However, we cannot assure you that we will not experience anomalies in the future, nor can we assure you that our backup satellite capacity will be sufficient for our business purposes."

Is it common for D* to not have in-orbit insurance on their satellites? Just curious.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Huh? Lots of people are saying or have said the sky is falling (and without any form of smilie...) Don't ask me why some people are like that, they just are.
> 
> Some samples:
> 
> Why is it when the news is good that is "planned" and when the news is not quite as good it is "not planned"? All of this is very likely planned. One doesn't spend $150M (or more) building and launching a satellite without some pretty good planning. Even D10s problems could have had plans. (Or sections of plans, most likely.)
> 
> Another of the long list of people forgetting the SEC rules and DIRECTV history. D10 was reported. If D12 was seriously ill, we would not be told it is fine--that would break so many laws. The people we talk to aren't interested in going to jail or causing legal nightmares.
> Thank you. Someone who is reading, thinking, analyzing.
> 
> It is so simple. If "not fine", we don't get told anything until the press release. If we're told it is fine and it ain't, lawsuits happen.
> 
> Ergo it is fine.
> 
> :scratch: what makes this so complicated?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I still do not see even in your examples anyone said "the sky is falling."


----------



## slimoli

Tom Robertson said:


> Why is it when the news is good that is "planned" and when the news is not quite as good it is "not planned"? All of this is very likely planned. One doesn't spend $150M (or more) building and launching a satellite without some pretty good planning. Even D10s problems could have had plans. (Or sections of plans, most likely.)
> 
> Tom
> 
> I don't think I posted one of those "sky is falling post". I was commenting on the FACT that Satracer told us in February about a possible new bunch of HD channels "sooner" than expected (his words). At that time, I don't believe anybody was expecting such a long testing at 76. That's why I said I don't think the long testing was "planned', otherwise Satracer would never be so optimistic in February.
> 
> You and other guys here are doing a great job informing us about the situation and I do appreciate that. You are, however, too much sensitive every time anybody post ANYTHING not bullish about Directv.
> 
> I continue to believe we will see new HD channels before end of June and I am just counting the last 30 days extension to be fully used for new testing. NOTHING wrong with that, those are facts. If we get the HD before end of May, good for you and for me.
> 
> Keep up the good work and please be a little more patient with comments which not necessarily are against Directv, maybe just not so optimistic like yours.


----------



## tcusta00

jacmyoung said:


> I still do not see even in your examples anyone said "the sky is falling."


It's a metaphor.


----------



## HerntDawg

If there is not anything by the middle of may, then I might be concerned. Until then, this is a good thread to read.


----------



## smiddy

Daily check in, daily sky is falling. 



Tom Robertson said:


> Why is it when the news is good that is "planned" and when the news is not quite as good it is "not planned"? All of this is very likely planned. One doesn't spend $150M (or more) building and launching a satellite without some pretty good planning. Even D10s problems could have had plans. (Or sections of plans, most likely.)


The way this is managed is via risks (and opportunities). Any good engineering outfit will have a risk and opportunities register (as well as issues). There will be a certain dollar amount assigned to those risk (opportunities) based on what is known. These risks will have mitigation plans associated with them to burn down the risk to a less significant risk. There are always those unknowns that can pop up, but those are also tracked as issues and mitigation plans get assigned to them too. Engineering in general, in developmental environments (not necessarily what satellite manufacturing is, it is less risky towards schedule; due to lots of knowns) is very risky due to its iterative process, which can iterate many times before a best value solution is realized. The goal is always the same, even though there can be hurdles to endure. Those hurdles can be anything from engineering to legal matters. Just because we can't or don't understand what is going on from our side doesn't mean something is or isn't going on on their side of things, we "the general public" will never know everything, by design. All we can know is what is published, and nothing has been published to indicate anything bad or good regarding DirecTV - 12. Anything that "the general public" surmises is pure speculation/conjecture. Unfortunately, "the general public" does set their own expectations which can be unrealistic...this is likely why the sky is falling.


----------



## loudo

Fog627 said:


> Is there a realistic _possibility_ of having VOD via the sat? Believe it or not, some of us do not have high speed internet available. I have dial-up (48Kbps MAX--that's right!!) and would love to have access to VOD. (Please no "why don't you get sat internet" responses -- too expensive for my budget!!)


I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, but I think the big issue would be the use of bandwidth required to accomplish it.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

slimoli said:


> Tom
> 
> I don't think I posted one of those "sky is fallen post". I was commenting on the FACT that Satracer told us in February about a possible new bunch of HD channels "sooner" *than expected* (his words). At that time,*I don't believe anybody* was expecting such a long testing at 76. That's why I said *I don't think* the long testing was "planned', otherwise Satracer would never be so optimistic in February.
> 
> You and other guys here are doing a great job informing us about the situation and I do appreciate that. You are, however, too much sensitive every time anybody post ANYTHING not bullish about Directv.
> 
> *I continue to believe* we will see new HD channels before end of June and I am just counting the last 30 days extension to be fully used for new testing. NOTHING wrong with that, those are facts. If we get the HD before end of May, good for you and for me.
> 
> Keep up the good work and please be a little more patient with comments which not necessarily are against Directv, maybe just *not so optimistic* like yours.


The reason the Negative Nancies are getting such a beatdown in this thread is because of the things I highlighted in your post. Do you not get it?

It's all speculation on your part. The mods here have direct contact with people at DirecTV. You do not.


----------



## bjlc

let us point out that Directv did not disclose the problems with D11 UNTIL AFTER THE MOVE.. 

so lets put this "disclosure " stuff, where it belongs,, on the shelf..


----------



## LameLefty

bjlc said:


> let us point out that Directv did not disclose the problems with D11 UNTIL AFTER THE MOVE..
> 
> so lets put this "disclosure " stuff, where it belongs,, on the shelf..


It was D10, not D11. I guess "accuracy" belongs on your shelf too, huh? :lol:


----------



## johnner1999

a bunch of new HD is targeted to go live next week about 9 or so channels..... 



..... oh wait thats on E* who has capacity -- sorry for the mistake


----------



## hdtvfan0001

johnner1999 said:


> a bunch of new HD is targeted to go live next week about 9 or so channels.....
> 
> ..... oh wait thats on E* who has capacity -- sorry for the mistake


In the spirit of the way this thread is evolving...and in the spirit of full disclosure...those will likely be more HD Lite, compressed, crushed new HD channels on that other brand. 

I can wait 30 days or so for new *real* HD channels on D12.


----------



## raott

SPACEMAKER said:


> The reason the Negative Nancies are getting such a beatdown in this thread is because of the things I highlighted in your post. Do you not get it?
> 
> It's all speculation on your part. The mods here have direct contact with people at DirecTV. You do not.


And how well did that direct contact work out on Tivo never coming back? The mods are told what D* wants to tell them. If people want to blindly accept what is said, that is their perogative, but they shouldn't slam others for being skeptical.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

raott said:


> And how well did that direct contact work out on Tivo never coming back? The mods are told what D* wants to tell them. If people want to *blindly accept what is said*, that is their perogative, but they shouldn't slam others for being skeptical.


Then again...if I'm going to blindly follow someone..it'll be a Mod...not a rumor monger picking up their information out of the air.


----------



## raott

LameLefty said:


> It was D10, not D11. I guess "accuracy" belongs on your shelf too, huh? :lol:


Let's address the real issue not whether it was D10 and D11. I wonder how many of the "nothing to see here" crowd also posted the same thing in the D10 thread. I'd bet I'd find the usual.


----------



## raott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then again...if I'm going to blindly follow someone..it'll be a Mod...not a rumor monger picking up their information out of the air.


Again, that is your perogative, I don't blindly follow anybody. Rumor mongering or not, I think, at best, thinks haven't gone perfect with D12.


----------



## LameLefty

raott said:


> Let's address the real issue not whether it was D10 and D11. I wonder how many of the "nothing to see here" crowd also posted the same thing in the D10 thread. I'd bet I'd find the usual.


Go back and look. The threads are archived and linked in the first two posts of this thread on Page 1.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

raott said:


> Again, that is your perogative, I don't blindly follow anybody.


Perhaps the word *if* was not noticed at the start of the statement...


----------



## LameLefty

raott said:


> And how well did that direct contact work out on Tivo never coming back?


Go buy that new DirecTivo today and report back later, 'mkay? :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Go back and look. The threads are archived and linked in the first two posts of this thread on Page 1.


Go ahead....make my day.


----------



## LameLefty

johnner1999 said:


> a bunch of new HD is targeted to go live next week about 9 or so channels.....
> 
> ..... oh wait thats on E* who has capacity -- sorry for the mistake


Not to worry, DISH can keep their downrezzed HD-Lite. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the NFL season schedule.


----------



## sigma1914

raott said:


> Let's address the real issue not whether it was D10 and D11. I wonder how many of the "nothing to see here" crowd also posted the same thing in the D10 thread. I'd bet I'd find the usual.


Do it, then.


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> Not to worry, DISH can keep their downrezzed HD-Lite. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the NFL season schedule.


Me too, and enjoying tons of baseball in HD.


----------



## cebbigh

Woke up early this morning. Not a cloud in the sky. Set a lawn chair up on my roof. The sun rose in the east as it normally does. My casual observation is that the sky does not seem to be falling today. But then I'm not precisely sure what to be looking for. It is rather pleasant up here. Actually more enjoyable than watching the TV.


----------



## johnner1999

LameLefty said:


> Not to worry, DISH can keep their downrezzed HD-Lite. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to the NFL season schedule.


I dont think E* uses HD lite anymore at least on the eastern arc! And as far as the 'mods' here have direct contacts with D* well I bet they do! BUT I don't think the contacts if they knew anything was wrong would or could say a darn thing..... just saying

funny thing is my local CableCo has more national HD then this 3rd place Sat company... just saying


----------



## sigma1914

johnner1999 said:


> I dont think E* uses HD lite anymore at least on the eastern arc! And as far as the 'mods' here have direct contacts with D* well I bet they do! BUT I don't think the contacts if they knew anything was wrong would or could say a darn thing..... just saying
> 
> funny thing is my local CableCo has more national HD then this 3rd place Sat company... just saying


Thanks for trollin' errr sharin'.


----------



## johnner1999

sigma1914 said:


> Thanks for trollin' errr sharin'.


LOL

thats funny

Actually I am a current DirecTV subscriber....

if it wasn't for a $400 noose around my neck in the form of an ETF i'd leave


----------



## LameLefty

johnner1999 said:


> LOL
> 
> thats funny
> 
> Actually I am a current DirecTV subscriber....
> 
> if it wasn't for a $400 noose around my neck in the form of an ETF i'd leave


Well, then why did you subscribe if you're so unhappy? Maybe you can convince Charlie to cover that ETF for you; if not, suck it up, Buttercup. Two years flies by. By then D12 will be in operation and I venture to guess Directv will have added even more subscribers despite your angst, and we ought to know the plans for the next three satellites. 

Can cite a source regarding your "belief" about Dish's practice of down-rezzing? The last numbers I saw from guys who had the equipment to measure were that Dish was indeed lowering native 1920 x 1080i to 1440 by 1080i. That's a loss of 25%.


----------



## Alan Gordon

raott said:


> Let's address the real issue not whether it was D10 and D11. I wonder how many of the "nothing to see here" crowd also posted the same thing in the D10 thread. I'd bet I'd find the usual.


Actually.... there really wasn't any sign that anything with D10 was wrong. It was just announced.

So... no, you wouldn't find the same thing.

~Alan


----------



## Lt Disher

LameLefty said:


> Well, then why did you subscribe if you're so unhappy?


I don't know, but he probably became unhappy AFTER he subscribed. This sentence makes no sense to me.


----------



## sigma1914

johnner1999 said:


> LOL
> 
> thats funny
> 
> Actually I am a current DirecTV subscriber....
> 
> if it wasn't for a $400 noose around my neck in the form of an ETF i'd leave


I guess you should have switched back when you posted this:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2186306#post2186306


----------



## johnner1999

LameLefty said:


> Well, then why did you subscribe if you're so unhappy? Maybe you can convince Charlie to cover that ETF for you; if not, suck it up, Buttercup. Two years flies by. By then D12 will be in operation and I venture to guess Directv will have added even more subscribers despite your angst, and we ought to know the plans for the next three satellites.
> 
> Can cite a source regarding your "belief" about Dish's practice of down-rezzing? The last numbers I saw from guys who had the equipment to measure were that Dish was indeed lowering native 1920 x 1080i to 1440 by 1080i. That's a loss of 25%.


Hmmm sorry my mistake I thought D* and E* (eastern) both sent 1440 as the norm; D* send the full frame -- that I didn't know.

Nahhh E* wouldn't pay the ETF -- my local CableCo would though... not sure its worth switching back to cable though even with just about all the HD I can want for (They too are missing a few though BBC, History International and maybe a couple others -- but as you pointed out it is HD-Lite at least for my market till switch to full digital...

I came on board with DirecTV when they added the bulk of HD back a couple years -- but last November I needed to replace my DVR's and that auto ups two more years and I still paid $400 for them (yup my mistake).

Only reason to swith back to CableVision is that they would pay off my ETF and give a 2 year fixed price of $90 for TV/Internet and Phone (phone I wont use) which is about what I am paying for DirecTV alone. Plus about a grand in TiVo and service out of pocket.

So I am waiting to see what D12 does and well what it actually will provide -- there are about 20 HD national channels that I would need to be turned on to stay


----------



## johnner1999

sigma1914 said:


> I guess you should have switched back when you posted this:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2186306#post2186306


yup - whats that saying hindsight 20/20? I figured I already had a DirecTV 5lnb installed and thought as in the past DirecTV innovated.


----------



## Fog627

I am not so sure I like the latest tone from the latest DirecTV Twitter responses:

"We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV *later this year*. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information."

There were two responses from DirecTV with the same message. It may not be indicative of a problem with D12 as both were in response to when DirecTV will start carrying BBC America in HD. I don't know if BBC America HD is scheduled with the next HD releases or not, but I had not heard "later this year" before.


----------



## jacmyoung

tcusta00 said:


> It's a metaphor.


Thank you so much for pointing that out, I just had one too many last night did not figure this out, my bad

But wait, how do you use "the sky is falling" as a metaphor? I think if someone is saying DirecTV is going to go dark, or we shall lose many channels, I would call that "the sky is falling" thinking, but to argue that D12 might have some problems due to the change of plans, I don't think the metaphor fits the bill.


----------



## MrDad0330

I dont know,I think all of us get so excited to see a successful launch in late December and then anxiously wait for the orbit to go geo and do the tests. We keep our finger crossed the solar panels open and on and on. Then we run into unexpected delays without knowing why (thats the hardest part) Its like coming downstairs Christmas morning and your parents telling you that Santa has been delayed. Your mom and dad assure you Santa is fine and he will be coming. This is how I felt when I read that D was asking for another 30 days of testing at 76. At our age, D12 is our new prized toy under the Christmas tree and I myself enjoy all this stuff. Sometimes I do worry that there is a problem, but its natural to wonder. I am sure that if there was indeed something majorily wrong with D12, that Directv would have to disclose that since it is a public, stock owned company. 
All I have heard is that D12 is fine and I have to believe that but it makes you worry or be suspicios that things arent right, but again, thats human nature; you know, the fear of the unknown. When this happens, i just try to settle down and know that in the near future, we will all "blog around" how much we worried over nothing as we enjoy what D12 will bring us. 
I do understand though, the intensities and concerns of many of us members..


----------



## sigma1914

Fog627 said:


> I am not so sure I like the latest tone from the latest DirecTV Twitter responses:
> 
> "We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV *later this year*. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information."
> 
> There were two responses from DirecTV with the same message. It may not be indicative of a problem with D12 as both were in response to when DirecTV will start carrying BBC America in HD. I don't know if BBC America HD is scheduled with the next HD releases or not, but I had not heard "later this year" before.


Tomorrow is later this year. May is later this year. December is later this year. etc...


----------



## slimoli

sigma1914 said:


> You mean when you post illogical ideas.


OK. At least be honest:

-Directv posted about "new HD in April", them removed it. I know, just a stupid guy who didn't know what he was doing.(yeah,right).
-Satracer posted in February we would get new HD "sooner". I know "sooner" here has no time frame, so he probably was talking about September. 
-A 2nd 30 day extension was requested for further testing. Normal stuff, you say, it was "planned". Well, if Satracer was actually talking about September, maybe. but you must also believe in Santa.

Now, tell me, without your tradidional "sky is fallen" comment, what is "illogical" on my posts?


----------



## P Smith

HerntDawg said:


> If there is not anything by the middle of may, then I might be concerned. Until then, this is a good thread to read.


Actually we should get something on FIRST week of May.


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> OK. At least be honest:
> 
> -Directv posted about "new HD in April", them removed it. I know, just a stupid guy who didn't know what he was doing.(yeah,right).
> -Satracer posted in February we would get new HD "sooner". I know "sooner" here has no time frame, so he probably was talking about September.
> -A 2nd 30 day extension was requested for further testing. Normal stuff, you say, it was "planned". Well, if Satracer was actually talking about September, maybe. but you must also believe in Santa.
> 
> Now, tell me, without your tradidional "sky is fallen" comment, what is "illogical" on my posts?


I'll try to get through to you, again, follow closely...

-D12 was ahead of schedule, so satracer said we'd get it sooner than expected. April was ahead of schedule, so they jumped the gun.
-The 2nd waiver had to be filed. They can either file for 30 days or 120 days.
-This now puts what's ahead of schedule to being on scheduled.
-Mods here who have direct contact with real people in Directv, and not CSRs, have told you and the CLC that D12 is fine, but you all just can't accept it.


----------



## Fog627

slimoli said:


> OK. At least be honest:
> 
> -Directv posted about "new HD in April", them removed it. I know, just a stupid guy who didn't know what he was doing.(yeah,right).
> -Satracer posted in February we would get new HD "sooner". I know "sooner" here has no time frame, so he probably was talking about September.
> -A 2nd 30 day extension was requested for further testing. Normal stuff, you say, it was "planned". Well, if Satracer was actually talking about September, maybe. but you must also believe in Santa.
> 
> Now, tell me, without your *tradidional* "sky is fallen" comment, what is "illogical" on my posts?


Oooops! A typo, now you're asking for it.....


----------



## Alan Gordon

slimoli said:


> -Directv posted about "new HD in April", them removed it. I know, just a stupid guy who didn't know what he was doing.(yeah,right).


It wasn't the first time they've had a mistake on their website.



slimoli said:


> -Satracer posted in February we would get new HD "sooner". I know "sooner" here has no time frame, so he probably was talking about September.


As far as September goes, I was messing with you. Trying to prove the point that we know nothing about D12. Speculation is all well and good, but until we truly have something to speculate about, acting like Debbie Downer does nothing for anyone.



slimoli said:


> -A 2nd 30 day extension was requested for further testing. Normal stuff, you say, it was "planned". Well, if Satracer was actually talking about September, maybe. but you must also believe in Santa.


I do believe in Santa. I pity the person who doesn't.



slimoli said:


> -Now, tell me, without your tradidional "sky is fallen" comment, what is "illogical" on my posts?


That we don't know the reasoning behind ANY of it?! 

~Alan


----------



## cebbigh

P Smith said:


> Actually we should get something on FIRST week of May.


Missed that one. What are we getting?


----------



## slimoli

Alan Gordon said:


> That we don't know the reasoning behind ANY of it?!
> 
> ~Alan


Really ? Interesting that we have a group of people here who spend the time grilling anything against Direct (although I am not against anything) and another group trying to discuss why the extension again. Is it speculation ? Yes, sure, what's wrong with that ? We speculate about a new TV, a new bluray player and why not about when we will indeed get new HD channels ?

Tell me Alan, why is your idea that the guy on the website just made a mistake more true than my idea that at that time Directv was actually expecting new HD in April ? Why is that ?

I don't have any hidden agenda , I am not a troll, but I am not blind or a cheerleader for anybody. I have both Directv and Dish, although a very limited package with Dish on my 2nd home. I like both. I want both to do well.


----------



## oldfantom

I am sure someone will chime in with this thought, but with the power to do something about it. Stuart's rule was "play nice". Not sure the whole my sat co can beat up your sat co discussion falls into "play nice". I understand that this is a place to discuss items and even air differences. At some point, we should all be aware that nobody in the history of message boards has ever changed their minds. So maybe, at some point in these conversations, it is best to say "I've said what I wanted to say, I am done with this chain."

Hope everyone is enjoying their Sunday.


----------



## Satelliteracer

slimoli said:


> OK. At least be honest:
> 
> -Directv posted about "new HD in April", them removed it. I know, just a stupid guy who didn't know what he was doing.(yeah,right).
> -Satracer posted in February we would get new HD "sooner". I know "sooner" here has no time frame, so he probably was talking about September.
> -A 2nd 30 day extension was requested for further testing. Normal stuff, you say, it was "planned". Well, if Satracer was actually talking about September, maybe. but you must also believe in Santa.
> 
> Now, tell me, without your tradidional "sky is fallen" comment, what is "illogical" on my posts?


I also said, if you go back and read the full text, that things are subject to change. Very very complex things going on 23,000 miles above our heads so I try never to state things as concrete.

At one point, things were ahead of schedule, and now they basically on schedule. And that, too, could change. It's the reality of dealing with very complex systems at great distances.


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> *At some point, we should all be aware that nobody in the history of message boards has ever changed their minds.* So maybe, at some point in these conversations, it is best to say "I've said what I wanted to say, I am done with this chain."


:lol:

Truer words were never written on these intertoobs.



Satelliteracer said:


> I also said, if you go back and read the full text, that things are subject to change. Very very complex things going on 23,000 miles above our heads so I try never to state things as concrete.
> 
> At one point, things were ahead of schedule, and now they basically on schedule. And that, too, could change. It's the reality of dealing with very complex systems at great distances.


Thank you, sir.


----------



## jacmyoung

sigma1914 said:


> Tomorrow is later this year. May is later this year. December is later this year. etc...


If you are a betting person, given the above three choices, I think your bet is "later this year" means December.


----------



## slimoli

Satelliteracer said:


> I also said, if you go back and read the full text, that things are subject to change. Very very complex things going on 23,000 miles above our heads so I try never to state things as concrete.
> 
> At one point, things were ahead of schedule, and now they basically on schedule. And that, too, could change. It's the reality of dealing with very complex systems at great distances.


Absolutely true and I have no problem with that. My point has nothing to do with plans being changed, which is totally natural. I used your post as an evidence that the 2nd requested to extend testing was not planned WHEN you posted it. I was answering another fellow member who was suggesting everything (including both extensions) was just part of the original plan, which I doubt.

You would never mention anything like that if you new about the 2 30 days extension, would you ?

I am not complaining about anything, just think that posts like "everything is according to plan" should make clear that the plan was also changed. Again, perfectly normal and acceptable.


----------



## Lee L

Satelliteracer said:


> I also said, if you go back and read the full text, that things are subject to change. Very very complex things going on 23,000 miles above our heads so I try never to state things as concrete.
> 
> At one point, things were ahead of schedule, and now they basically on schedule. And that, too, could change. It's the reality of dealing with very complex systems at great distances.


Hah, no good deed goes unpunished. 

Good to read the rest of your comment though. But hurry things along if you could.  It will be nice to have AMC in HD before Mad Men starts up again at least.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

This thread is a riot. :lol:


----------



## P Smith

cebbigh said:


> Missed that one. What are we getting?


End of time window to relocate D12 to 103W.


----------



## loudo

Lee L said:


> But hurry things along if you could.  It will be nice to have AMC in HD before Mad Men starts up again at least.


I would rather see them take their time testing and getting it 100% before lighting it up, rather than hurrying and lighting it up when it is only 80% right and having to get it right after start up.

As one who has worked in communications and electronics, I know there are all the unexpected delays that occur. Yes, you can rush things to meet schedules but you usually end up paying for it in the long run.

Right now we have a few people here that are upset because we don't have our new HD today. But there would be a lot more upset people if they were to light D12 up and find all the issues in the transmissions afterward.


----------



## Alan Gordon

slimoli said:


> Really ? Interesting that we have a group of people here who spend the time grilling anything against Direct (although I am not against anything) and another group trying to discuss why the extension again. Is it speculation ? Yes, sure, what's wrong with that ? We speculate about a new TV, a new bluray player and why not about when we will indeed get new HD channels ?


I LOVE speculation! But only when we have something to speculate about. A lot of us KNOW that the mods have contacts at DirecTV. If they say they're being told that the satellite is "fine". That's good enough for me.

I'm not ruling out that there isn't something wrong with the satellite. I'm just saying that until we get some reason to believe there is something wrong with the satellite, something a whole lot more than "additional testing", any speculation is just Chicken Little running around telling everybody "the sky is falling".

Should DirecTV announce an issue (ala D10), I not only welcome speculation as to what it will mean, I'll join in. 



slimoli said:


> Tell me Alan, why is your idea that the guy on the website just made a mistake more true than my idea that at that time Directv was actually expecting new HD in April ? Why is that ?


I never said either. My point was simply that we don't know.

Obviously that has changed since Satelliteracer clarified that the channels didn't happen as soon as he thought.



slimoli said:


> I don't have any hidden agenda , I am not a troll, but I am not blind or a cheerleader for anybody. I have both Directv and Dish, although a very limited package with Dish on my 2nd home. I like both. I want both to do well.


I like DirecTV over Dish Network.

That being said, I can think of multiple things I'm not happy with DirecTV about... some of which you can read about in my multiple posts in the TiVo thread, multiple MRV threads, a recent CIG thread, and the HR24 First Look thread, among others I don't talk about as much.

I want both to do well too. 

So... as those familiar with my posting history in the above mentioned threads can attest, I don't really keep my agendas hidden! 

~Alan


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I think we all just need to take a step back, take a deep breath, calm down, and go outside and enjoy the nice weather. 

Oh wait.......the sky is falling! Never mind. :lol:


----------



## slimoli

Alan Gordon said:


> So... as those familiar with my posting history in the above mentioned threads can attest, I don't really keep my agendas hidden!
> 
> ~Alan


and I never said that. I prefer Directv over Dish as well but I think the differences are not so big. Thank you for your comments.


----------



## hyde76

Would it be possible to make this a news thread as it was always supposed to be and have a separate speculation thread? Reading this junk has gotten beyond annoying. I know that no one forces anyone to read this thread but there are a few of us that just want to know what is happening for real instead of everyone's off-topic speculation. Thanks. It has gotten way out of hand and just is not necessary.


----------



## Alan Gordon

slimoli said:


> and I never said that.


I never said you did. I was just stating (for the record), that I too, do not have a hidden agenda.



slimoli said:


> I prefer Directv over Dish as well but I think the differences are not so big. Thank you for your comments.


For me, the differences are HUGE, but I'm aware that for others, it isn't. That being said, this is not a DirecTV vs. Dish thread, so I won't elaborate any farther, and leave it at that.

~Alan


----------



## P Smith

hyde76 said:


> Would it be possible to make this a news thread as it was always supposed to be and have a separate speculation thread? Reading this junk has gotten beyond annoying. I know that no one forces anyone to read this thread but there are a few of us that just want to know what is happening for real instead of everyone's off-topic speculation. Thanks. It has gotten way out of hand and just is not necessary.


Sixto created special thread for you and locked it up, so subscribe to it and wait for filtered news.


----------



## sigma1914

hyde76 said:


> Would it be possible to make this a news thread as it was always supposed to be and have a separate speculation thread? Reading this junk has gotten beyond annoying. I know that no one forces anyone to read this thread but there are a few of us that just want to know what is happening for real instead of everyone's off-topic speculation. Thanks. It has gotten way out of hand and just is not necessary.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806


----------



## johnner1999

sigma1914 said:


> Tomorrow is later this year. May is later this year. December is later this year. etc...


well with that logic - ahhhh never mind - just wasting my key strokes


----------



## johnner1999

oldfantom said:


> I am sure someone will chime in with this thought, but with the power to do something about it. Stuart's rule was "play nice". Not sure the whole my sat co can beat up your sat co discussion falls into "play nice". I understand that this is a place to discuss items and even air differences. At some point, we should all be aware that nobody in the history of message boards has ever changed their minds. So maybe, at some point in these conversations, it is best to say "I've said what I wanted to say, I am done with this chain."
> 
> Hope everyone is enjoying their Sunday.


well said! I do think though that the idea of a discussion board is to well you know discuss 

but I will leave now


----------



## cebbigh

Satelliteracer said:


> I also said, if you go back and read the full text, that things are subject to change. Very very complex things going on 23,000 miles above our heads so I try never to state things as concrete.
> 
> At one point, things were ahead of schedule, and now they basically on schedule. And that, too, could change. It's the reality of dealing with very complex systems at great distances.


Are you at liberty to fill us in on what has changed? It would be a humanitarian act, relieve a lot of angst and endless speculation.


----------



## Jeremy W

cebbigh said:


> Are you at liberty to fill us in on what has changed?


Don't you think he would have, I don't know, told us if he was? Come on.


----------



## jacmyoung

cebbigh said:


> Are you at liberty to fill us in on what has changed? It would be a humanitarian act, relieve a lot of angst and endless speculation.


When a company files requests for "extension", by definition the plan has changed. A plan that has been extended is a changed plan. For someone to say the plan has never changed is a lie.


----------



## TDK1044

Never in the field of human speculation was so much nonsense printed by so many in regard to the truth known to so few.


----------



## GregLee

jacmyoung said:


> When a company files requests for "extension", by definition the plan has changed.


What definition of what? If the company planned all along to file the extension request, the company's plan needn't have changed.


----------



## cebbigh

TDK1044 said:


> Never in the field of human speculation was so much nonsense printed by so many in regard to the truth known to so few.


:lol:


----------



## hyde76

P Smith said:


> Sixto created special thread for you and locked it up, so subscribe to it and wait for filtered news.


Very little is posted in the locked thread. Not even TLE's. The only place to catch up on any movement at all is in this thread, but filtering through the muck is just kind of sad sometimes. I've got no problems with speculation, just if it's going to degenerate in to what's been evidenced here in the past few weeks, is this really the best place for it? Can you honestly tell me that's really what this thread was setup for?


----------



## jacmyoung

GregLee said:


> What definition of what? If the company planned all along to file the extension request, the company's plan needn't have changed.


If so then the original plan would have been that to complete the plan say by the end of the year, with the effort made to complete the plan sooner if possible, say by 4/10. In that case you are correct when DirecTV took down the 4/10 date from their website, the plan did not change, only that their effort to complete the plan sooner had not worked.

But in that case I may still say, the effort to complete it sooner was a plan of itself, and that plan did not complete itself, or should I say that plan failed?

Which one you'd rather I say? The plan had failed, or the plan had changed? I'd pick the latter.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> If so then the original plan would have been that to complete the plan say by the end of the year, with the effort made to complete the plan sooner if possible, say by 4/10. In that case you are correct when DirecTV took down the 4/10 date from their website, the plan did not change, only that their effort to complete the plan sooner had not worked.
> 
> But in that case I may still say, the effort to complete it sooner was a plan of itself, and that plan did not complete itself, or should I say that plan failed?
> 
> Which one you'd rather I say? The plan had failed, or the plan had changed? I'd pick the latter.


Good post! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

hyde76 said:


> Very little is posted in the locked thread. Not even TLE's. The only place to catch up on any movement at all is in this thread, but filtering through the muck is just kind of sad sometimes. I've got no problems with speculation, just if it's going to degenerate in to what's been evidenced here in the past few weeks, is this really the best place for it? Can you honestly tell me that's really what this thread was setup for?


Post#1 of this thread has every TLE. Been 85+ updates since D12 arrived at 76° mid-February.


----------



## raoul5788

johnner1999 said:


> I came on board with DirecTV when they added the bulk of HD back a couple years -- but last November I needed to replace my DVR's and that auto ups two more years and I still paid $400 for them (yup my mistake).


If the dvrs were defective (it does not sound like they were), then you should not have gotten your commitment extended.


----------



## Newshawk

TheRatPatrol said:


> I think we all just need to take a step back, take a deep breath, calm down, and go outside and enjoy the nice weather.
> 
> Oh wait.......the sky is falling! Never mind. :lol:


Yes, the sky is falling here, too-it's liquefying and turning into small drops of water and then falling! :eek2:

Ans what's worse it that the falling sky has postponed the Sprint Cup race until tomorrow... AGAIN! :nono2:


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914 said:


> Tomorrow is later this year.


No it's not.



> May is later this year.


No it's not.



> December is later this year. etc...


That is the only accurate part of your above post.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Lord Vader said:


> That is the only accurate part of your above post.


Your math is different than my math!   

~Alan


----------



## Lord Vader

No. There is no "math" involved. Tomorrow is soon. May is soon. _*December *_ is later. Neither tomorrow nor May is.


----------



## sigma1914

sigma1914 said:


> Tomorrow is later this year. May is later this year. December is later this year. etc...





Lord Vader said:


> No it's not.
> 
> No it's not.
> 
> That is the only accurate part of your above post.


How? Later, from any point in which one says it, is any time from that point forward.


----------



## dcowboy7

jacmyoung said:


> If so then the original plan would have been that to complete the plan say by the end of the year, with the effort made to complete the plan sooner if possible, say by 4/10. In that case you are correct when DirecTV took down the 4/10 date from their website, the plan did not change, only that their effort to complete the plan sooner had not worked.
> 
> But in that case I may still say, the effort to complete it sooner was a plan of itself, and that plan did not complete itself, or should I say that plan failed?
> 
> Which one you'd rather I say? The plan had failed, or the plan had changed? I'd pick the latter.


& the winner for using the word "plan" 10x in a post goes to....


----------



## sigma1914

Lord Vader said:


> No. There is no "math" involved. Tomorrow is soon. May is soon. _*December *_ is later. Neither tomorrow nor May is.


If I say, "Get me a drink." Then you respond, "Later." You can give me that drink in 5 minutes...that's later.


----------



## Lord Vader

sigma1914 said:


> How? Later, from any point in which one says it, is any time from that point forward.


Using your logic, then, the word "sooner" would not be able to exist.

When making comparisons among tomorrow, May, and December, later cannot be used to refer to the first two, only the last one.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Lord Vader said:


> No. There is no "math" involved. Tomorrow is soon. May is soon. _*December *_ is later. Neither tomorrow nor May is.


Yeah, math is involved.

However, you're clearly nitpicking, as I seriously doubt anyone is TRULY going to deny that any point in the future in which it is still the year 2010 A.D. is not "later this year."

Otherwise, my grasp of the English language and chronological time is completely screwed up. 

~Alan


----------



## sigma1914

Lord Vader said:


> Using your logic, then, the word "sooner" would not be able to exist.
> 
> When making comparisons among tomorrow, May, and December, later cannot be used to refer to the first two, only the last one.


Definition: at some time subsequent to a given time : subsequently, afterward <one week later> <they later regretted the decision> -often used with on <experience that will be useful later on>


----------



## Civrock

sigma1914 said:


> If I say, "Get me a drink." Then you respond, "Later." You can give me that drink in 5 minutes...that's later.


It always depends on the context... in this case, "later this year" sounds to me like something that's actually later in the year, towards the end, not in a month or two. Like... sometime in the Fall or even Winter, not before. But that's just my personal interpretation.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Civrock said:


> *It always depends on the context...* in this case, "later this year" sounds to me like something that's actually later in the year, towards the end, not in a month or two. Like... sometime in the Fall or even Winter, not before. *But that's just my personal interpretation.*


BINGO!

Later this year could technically mean anywhere from 1 second from now til 1 second prior to midnight, January 1st, 2011.

It all depends upon one's context, and how the other person interprets it.

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson

What is this? The semantics society? 

:backtotop

Mike


----------



## P Smith

hyde76 said:


> Very little is posted in the locked thread. Not even TLE's. The only place to catch up on any movement at all is in this thread, but filtering through the muck is just kind of sad sometimes. I've got no problems with speculation, just if it's going to degenerate in to what's been evidenced here in the past few weeks, is this really the best place for it? *Can you honestly tell me that's really what this thread was setup for?*


Yes. Just a place for lonely people to hangout. 

Come back in few days, I would say - after April 20 for possible changes in a status of the sat D12.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Just curious, *IF* something is wrong with the satellite that prevents them from putting up new HD channels, what about those people that signed up after seeing an ad saying Directv *WOULD* have the capacity for up to 200+ HD channels and would add more? Should they be contractually obligated to stay, if Dish Network can provide the HD channels they're looking for when Directv can't, because of a satellite malfunction?


----------



## Davenlr

I would think, using their current satellites, they would be able to meet that obligation, although it would be either at the expense of reduced resolution or added equipment to facilitate subscribers being able to pick up 110 and 119 slots if they are currently using a 3 slot lnb.


----------



## P Smith

"*because of a satellite malfunction*" - nobody say that - no one fact prove it; we experience just delay in IOT ... and some over-wobulation during it's stay at 76W after March 1st


----------



## RobertE

kevinturcotte said:


> Just curious, *IF* something is wrong with the satellite that prevents them from putting up new HD channels, what about those people that signed up after seeing an ad saying Directv *WOULD* have the capacity for up to 200+ HD channels and would add more? Should they be contractually obligated to stay, if Dish Network can provide the HD channels they're looking for when Directv can't, because of a satellite malfunction?


No.


----------



## kevinturcotte

P Smith said:


> "*because of a satellite malfunction*" - nobody say that - no one fact prove it; we experience just delay in IOT ... and some over-wobulation during it's stay at 76W after March 1st


I'm saying *IF* it comes to that, *IF* that's announced, that there's something wrong.


----------



## I WANT MORE

They are obviously simply waiting for the space shuttle to land before moving D12. Is that so hard to figure out?


----------



## Lord Vader

Alan Gordon said:


> Yeah, math is involved.
> 
> However, you're clearly nitpicking,


No. I was being correct. It was the OP who was trying to be nitpicky but instead was inaccurate when making time comparisons among three dates.


----------



## cebbigh

Kurt Godel (o has umlaut) determined from Einstein's Theory of Relativity that if you travel fast enough you can penetrate into any region of the past, present or future. He was quick to point out if we can revisit the past, that it never really "passed". A time that fails to pass is no time at all. So time is illusion.

Paraphrased from: A World Without Time. The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein. by Palle Yourgrau.


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> No. I was being correct. It was the OP who was trying to be nitpicky but instead was inaccurate when making time comparisons among three dates.


No, you were most certainly not being correct; "later" means at a time future from "now."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/later

Now stop polluting the thread with even more pedantic (and incorrect) nonsense.


----------



## James Long

MicroBeta said:


> What is this? The semantics society?


That's not the one that makes an anti-virus product is it? If so we could use it to kill the viral nature of this thread.



> :backtotop


I couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## MycroftHolmes

If on January 1st DirecTV announced that there would be more HD later this year, would you tell the people who were expecting it on January 2nd or even Feburary 1 that they're crazy and they should be patient?


----------



## Sixto

When discussing technology, and someone states available "later this year" or "later in the year", they usually mean at least a few months from now. Seems like a fairly common term.

DirecTV actually stated "later this year" on 2/26/2009, when referring to the D12 launch. They also made the same comment on 11/09/2009.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

When is everyone going to stop bickering and get back to topic. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets temp closed for a few hours or a day to end this nonsense.

Edit: Not directed at you Sixto.


----------



## TDK1044

There are only two facts as far as I can tell...D12 was sucessfully launched on 12/28/2009, and it is currently being tested.


----------



## Lord Vader

Sixto said:


> When discussing technology, and someone states available "later this year" or "later in the year", they usually mean at least a few months from now. Seems like a fairly common term.
> 
> DirecTV actually stated "later this year" on 2/26/2009, when referring to the D12 launch. They also made the same comment on 11/09/2009.


Indeed. This much is certain: it shall be *later* than tomorrow. 



HDTVsportsfan said:


> When is everyone going to stop bickering


Ah, the Dark Side at work.


----------



## jacmyoung

sigma1914 said:


> If I say, "Get me a drink." Then you respond, "Later." You can give me that drink in 5 minutes...that's later.


But if you respond, "later this year," you've got a different plan


----------



## Jeremy W

HDTVsportsfan said:


> When is everyone going to stop bickering and get back to topic.


When is everyone going to stop complaining about what goes on in this thread? The mods have stated that this is now a loosely moderated thread in which to blow off steam, and that's what it has become. If you don't like it, stay out.


----------



## tcusta00

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if this thread gets temp closed for a few hours or a day to end this nonsense.


Been there, been done... the sky still falls when it's reopened. :shrug:


----------



## tcusta00

Jeremy W said:


> When is everyone going to stop complaining about what goes on in this thread? The mods have stated that this is now a loosely moderated thread in which to blow off steam, and that's what it has become. If you don't like it, stay out.


Do you think this is a productive use of people's time?


----------



## Jeremy W

tcusta00 said:


> Do you think this is a productive use of people's time?


I don't think it's productive, but so what? If you don't like it, leave. How is complaining about what happens in this thread any more productive than what happens in this thread?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

tcusta00 said:


> Been there, been done... the sky still falls when it's reopened. :shrug:


Oh...I didn't know it was previously (temp) closed. Well....maybe some clean-up....but that's just more work for the mods.

I'm done and out folks. Try not to hurt each other.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Naaahhhh, just don't expect this thread to be informative. We have another thread for that.


----------



## wmb

HDTVsportsfan said:


> This thread is a riot. :lol:


This post is amazing accuate.


----------



## bb37

sigma1914 said:


> Later, from any point in which one says it, is any time from that point forward.


And I got busted for asking the difference between "on" and "in".


----------



## jacmyoung

dcowboy7 said:


> & the winner for using the word "plan" 10x in a post goes to....


Do you have any idea how hard I tried to hold back on using that word too often?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since the December launch of D12...I thought the greatest thing about it would be the launch of various new national HD channels for everyone to enjoy.

Now I'm almost thinking the best thing is that it will bring the end to this thread.


----------



## dcowboy7

But when will then be now ?


----------



## azarby

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm saying *IF* it comes to that, *IF* that's announced, that there's something wrong.


Unless it directly affects you, why worry about it. That would be DirecTVs problem to fix.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I guess the only thing to do now is wait for "The Sky is Falling, the Sequel" to be released in video.


----------



## James Long

And ... SCENE.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

James Long said:


> *D12* *has been allowed to drift.* *D12* "*on service as scheduled*"


look subliminal messages


----------



## James Long

Only the thread has been allowed to drift, my Internet friend. My money is still on E14 moving toward 119 before D12 moves toward 103 (other than minor station keeping TLEs) and especially on DISH adding more new HD channels before DirecTV. 

(PS: This post is not written "as a moderator".)
(PS2: I'm not saying how much money, but it bears Lincoln's portrait.)
(PS3: I don't own one.)


----------



## matt

wmb said:


> This post is amazing accuate.


Double accurate, some of the comments are about how vevo sucks


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

James Long said:


> Only the thread has been allowed to drift, my Internet friend. My money is still on E14 moving toward 119 before D12 moves toward 103 (other than minor station keeping TLEs) and especially on *DISH adding more new HD channels* before DirecTV.
> 
> (PS: This post is not written "as a moderator".)
> (PS2: I'm not saying how much money, but it bears Lincoln's portrait.)
> (PS3: I don't own one.)


HD Lite doesn't count.


----------



## TBlazer07

dcowboy7 said:


> But when will then be now ?


That depends on what the definition of "is" is.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

dcowboy7 said:


> But when will then be now ?


How soon is now?


----------



## Lord Vader

Coca Cola Kid said:


> How soon is now?


Later.


----------



## Sixto

Let's get back to basics.

Let's talk D12 and that's it.

No reason why we can't get back to the type of thread we had in February/March as D12 tested.


----------



## Lord Vader

I agree.


----------



## Sixto

I'll start ...

Post#1 has the latest.

Post#2 has the history.

The notification thread is for new news.

D12 is still at 76°. We don't know why, so no need asking.

We'll probably see the 2nd extension for testing at 76° approved early this week.

We're still waiting on the approval for 2nd extension for the Drift, which probably won't be until they're ready to Drift.

It's obvious that any potential plan to Drift after the first 30 days of testing and go "live" in April didn't work out. We don't know why, no need asking, no one knows.

No need debating whether the plan got earlier, then later, no one knows the details, but again it's quite obvious that at some point they decided to adjust the testing, and we don't know why.

The overall plan has been 200+ national HD and more HD LiL. We hear the overall plan is still the same, just waiting on when.

In the meantime, we wait.

Let's try to be civil, we're adults (hopefully ).


----------



## LameLefty

I'm done. I'll PM Doug/Stuart/Tom and Sixto as I find new info. The rest of you have fun. Anyone with spacecraft engineering questions can PM me but I'll let you know up front that the RF stuff isn't my ball o' wax.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I'm done. I'll PM Doug/Stuart/Tom and Sixto as I find new info. The rest of you have fun. Anyone with spacecraft engineering questions can PM me but I'll let you know up front that the RF stuff isn't my ball o' wax.


Stick around for a while. Let's give this a day.

No reason we can't can't back to basics.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Last warning.

No more semantics posts today... Thread bans are next.

Thank you for understanding--or at least complaining to me privately...


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> I'm done. I'll PM Doug/Stuart/Tom and Sixto as I find new info. The rest of you have fun. Anyone with spacecraft engineering questions can PM me but I'll let you know up front that the RF stuff isn't my ball o' wax.


There may be some misunderstanding ... good posts about D12 are always welcome. There is no penalty for ignoring posts you do not wish to respond to. Hopefully there can still be some productive use of this server space.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> Let's get back to basics.
> 
> Let's talk D12 and that's it.
> 
> No reason why we can't get back to the type of thread we had in February/March as D12 tested.


Oh, you are an idealist. 

I'm afraid that without substantive information either indicating drift or additional insight as to what is causing the delay the thread will degenerate rapidly.

I truly sympathize with you. You've done and continue to do great work in this and your other threads.

Come on guys. can we resolve to honor the work that Sixto is doing for us and give him a break so he can enjoy doing what he's doing for us?


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> I'll start ...
> 
> Post#1 has the latest.
> 
> Post#2 has the history.
> 
> The notification thread is for new news.
> 
> D12 is still at 76°. We don't know why, so no need asking.
> 
> We'll probably see the 2nd extension for testing at 76° approved early this week.
> 
> We're still waiting on the approval for 2nd extension for the Drift, which probably won't be until they're ready to Drift.
> 
> It's obvious that the plan changed. We don't know why, no need asking, no one knows.
> 
> No need debating whether the plan got earlier, then later, no one knows the details, but again it's quite obvious that at some point they decided to adjust the testing, and we don't know why.
> 
> The plan has been 200+ national HD and more HD LiL. We here the plan is still the same, just waiting on when.
> 
> In the meantime, we wait.
> 
> Let's try to be civil, we're adults (hopefully ).


Well put. I hope it sinks in.


----------



## mckeemike505

I agree there are plenty of other threads that can be started or continued in other topics that can cover this without ruining this thread. This has been a thread that I personally have read and greatly enjoyed for a long time. I don't want to loose the people who make this thread what it is. Because of people who want to discuss "potential problems". Take is somewhere else please. Can't we leave this thread for what sixtu does and create a thread in the normal area to debate this just like we do everything else about D*.

Thank,
Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

cebbigh said:


> Oh, you are an idealist.
> 
> I'm afraid that without substantive information either indicating drift or additional insight as to what is causing the delay the thread will degenerate rapidly.
> 
> I truly sympathize with you. You've done and continue to do great work in this and your other threads.
> 
> Come on guys. can we resolve to honor the work that Sixtus is doing for us and give him a break so he can enjoy doing what he's doing for us?


We don't mind playful banter.  This thread is permitted to wonder quite a bit more than most threads for exactly some of the reasons you mention.

We're all itchy for news. Good news we hope. 

Until then, someone is bound to sing off-key while we're waiting... 

All we're demanding (and enforcing) is the playful must remain polite toward one another. We can't let the thread go _that_ far.

So play nice in the sandbox and we'll all have fun. 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## James Long

mckeemike505 said:


> I agree there are plenty of other threads that can be started or continued in other topics that can cover this without ruining this thread.
> ...
> Can't we leave this thread for what sixtu does and create a thread in the normal area to debate this just like we do everything else about D*.


Agreed for the OT stuff - but please do not start another thread about D12 (and report any that are started for immediate closure).


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> ...It's obvious that *the plan changed*.


Thank you! That was my big conclusion, I feel totally vindicated now, all the shots I had last night did not go down in vain.



> We don't know why, no need asking, no one knows...


But if someone insists to speculate, would it be fine? Not that I would, but I figured if someone is allowed to speculate, the rest of us obviously will be allowed to make fun of him, in a supportive way of course.


----------



## johnner1999

How about any new changes to 'test' uplinks or other 'inside' info on what channels could be added once d12 goes live?


----------



## Groundhog45

Give it up, guys. Just sit and wait like the rest of us. I'm sure "Sixto" will let us know when he hears something, as will the forum Mods.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Thank you! That was my big conclusion, I feel totally vindicated now, all the shots I had last night did not go down in vain.


Have updated my post to more accurately reflect what I meant.


----------



## Sixto

Updated post#1 with #158. Similar.


----------



## Doug Brott

Guys, my apologies, I think I helped kick start the downward spiral of this thread .. Today I was building a fence so I couldn't participate. Sadly, the fence is only ½ done and not nearly as big as a days worth of work would suggest, but it looks good .. really good if you consider it's my first fence and all I had to go by was the fence on the other side of the area I was enclosing.

So, thank you all for getting back to anticipation .. With any luck we'll see D12 moving pretty soon.


----------



## gregftlaud

People are starving in the world........people are dying......... and suffering in hospitals and at home with terminal illnesses........millions of people and children are physically and mentally abused everyday........millions of people have lost everything in the recent economic crisis.............and millions of animals are being abused and put to sleep every year in this country.........

....Meanwhile petty people are on here whining why a satellite isnt doing what they expect so they can get their extra HD channels. 

Pitiful 

Be happy with what you have and dont gripe about what you dont have b/c it could be alot worse.


----------



## kzzz

gregftlaud said:


> People are starving in the world........people are dying......... and suffering in hospitals and at home with terminal illnesses........millions of people and children are physically and mentally abused everyday........millions of people have lost everything in the recent economic crisis.............and millions of animals are being abused and put to sleep every year in this country.........
> 
> ....Meanwhile petty people are on here whining why a satellite isnt doing what they expect so they can get their extra HD channels.
> 
> Pitiful
> 
> Be happy with what you have and dont gripe about what you dont have b/c it could be alot worse.


Here Here!! We could be building a fence:lol:


----------



## hyde76

If there were only a thanks button, I'd use it. So, given there is no button, Thanks!


----------



## IndyMichael

If there's nothing wrong with the D12, why does it need yet another 30 days of testing?


----------



## colts19

IndyMichael said:


> If there's nothing wrong with the D12, why does it need yet another 30 days of testing?


I don't know. sixto, lame lefty don't know. No one knows.


----------



## badhabit2112

Some days you just have to bang your head against the wall... :icon_dumm

:lol:


----------



## BudShark

I agree. Its time to go back to how it was. Sorry for my involvement in the negative spiral!

:backtotop

I look forward to updates from Sixto and hopefully Lefty. I'm sure the moderators will pass along any news they get!


----------



## Hdhead

I'll betcha E* knows whats wrong with D12. Really.


----------



## rey_1178

Hdhead said:


> I'll betcha E* knows whats wrong with D12. Really.


i betcha E* is responsible


----------



## TDK1044

Hdhead said:


> I'll betcha E* knows whats wrong with D12. Really.


I've seen nothing of note on any forum to suggest that there is anything actually wrong with D12. I've read everything from intelligently thought out reasons for the delay of the drift by people who clearly have some knowledge of the events taking place, to speculative nonsense from people with the IQ of a turnip.

The reality would appear to be that at one point D12 was ahead of schedule, and then another area of testing redressed that balance and created a delay.

Welcome to the world of technology....especially when the technology is 23,000 miles away.

This bird will deliver what DirecTV promised it will deliver.....when DirecTV is fully satisfied that it's ready to be added to production.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

TDK1044 said:


> I've seen nothing of note on any forum to suggest that there is anything actually wrong with D12. I've read everything from intelligently thought out reasons for the delay of the drift by people who clearly have some knowledge of the events taking place, to speculative nonsense from people with the IQ of a turnip.
> 
> The reality would appear to be that at one point D12 was ahead of schedule, and then another area of testing redressed that balance and created a delay.
> 
> Welcome to the world of technology....especially when the technology is 23,000 miles away.
> 
> This bird will deliver what DirecTV promised it will deliver.....when DirecTV is fully satisfied that it's ready to be added to production.


I believe you have summarized things quite well and accurately in your post.


----------



## Ed Campbell

"I've seen nothing of note on any forum to suggest that there is anything actually wrong with D12" - TDK1044

I've taken to wandering by with less frequency because of the endless semantic whining. Each time I leave, I check Google for any real information about D12 - and there is none. Then, frankly, I check a 2-week chart on DirecTV stock valuation - and there is no serious change outside market fluctuation.

I won't try to explain to folks unused to scientific methods, good engineering practices, how and why extended testing can be positive _or_ negative.

I've been staying away because boredom grows according to the inverse ratio of Gullitt's Law.

For those of you not familiar with the history of Fulham Football Club, Ruud Gullitt was a great player who became a mediocre manager with an especially disappointing record at FFC.

At a press conference noted solely for the sort of endless questioning and useless theorizing typical of similar press conferences, Gullitt finally responded:

"What if, what if, what if? If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle!"

And that has become Gullitt's Law - perfectly applicable to so many other topics.


----------



## Santi360HD

yeah lets stick to shop talk...most of my posts (they're not even in large number-->IF any) I aint ganged up on no-one. Im not even gonna scroll back to see what some of you are talking about..I value everyone's opinion here

question? they can request another 30 days testing at 76 degrees?


----------



## RAD

From DirecTV's Twitter page:

_"SwanniOnHD We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV later this year. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information. "_.

What concerns me is that they've gone from responding with 'soon' to 'later this year' when responding to questions about new HD.


----------



## Hoosier205

Later this year could also mean 5 minutes from now. Relax folks. Once again, for probably the 1,000th time...we have absolutely no cause for concern whatsoever.

Special attention should also be paid to who they were responding to. As if they would give "it" any good info.


----------



## damondlt

rey_1178 said:


> i betcha E* is responsible


 It is fairly close "So to speak" to E* eastern arc:eek2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RAD said:


> From DirecTV's Twitter page:
> 
> _"SwanniOnHD We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV later this year. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information. "_.
> 
> What concerns me is that they've gone from responding with 'soon' to 'later this year' when responding to questions about new HD.


I think they're hedging their bets. If they say soon and they're still testing it looks bad. If they say later this year, that could be anything from a couple of months to the end of the year and it looks not so bad. :grin:

Mike


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> From DirecTV's Twitter page:
> 
> _"SwanniOnHD We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV later this year. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information. "_.
> 
> What concerns me is that they've gone from responding with 'soon' to 'later this year' when responding to questions about new HD.


 Great, I switched from one company that never informs its customers of anything, to a company that is always informative, Now they don't inform its customers on this. Yep I could see trouble coming.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

They need to get this thing moving.

Dish: We're First With 200 HD Channels


----------



## damondlt

TheRatPatrol said:


> They need to get this thing moving.
> 
> Dish: We're First With 200 HD Channels


For D* to sit on their A$$es and do nothing while E* blows D* away in HD is bothersome.
D* must really think Sports is the answer.
I see D* having a poor 2nd quarter and E* having a good one.


----------



## georule

Last year's 1Q conference call was May 7. This year, while there hasn't been an official announcement yet, some sites are listing it for May 3. Last year they announced when the conference call would be on Apr 22, so probably this week we get a definite date.

The one thing I'm sure of re D12, is D* would prefer, if reasonably possible, to have that bird at least on the move before the beginning of that conference call and its associated earnings and "quarter highlights" release. I'm not saying they'll do anything stupid or risky to make that happen, but there will be some very senior type execs putting pressure on engineering to make it happen, or make the engineers push back hard as to why it can't.

Because if it doesn't happen by then, "Wassup wit' D12?" becomes far more of a focus on that analysts' call than the exec team wants to see happen. If it's at least on the move, they sell that as a win and any questioning is minimal and perfunctory.


----------



## damondlt

Why isn't DBS Talk Hounding D*?
I thought DBS Talk had tons of connections with Directv?


----------



## James Long

TheRatPatrol said:


> They need to get this thing moving.
> 
> Dish: We're First With 200 HD Channels


Press release / discussion thread here


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> Press release / discussion thread here


 Isn't this considered Trolling?
What does this have to do with Directv 12?

Still waiting for that list of 200 HD channel.:hurah:


----------



## johnner1999

damondlt said:


> Why isn't DBS Talk Hounding D*?
> I thought DBS Talk had tons of connections with Directv?


+1


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> Isn't this considered Trolling?
> What does this have to do with Directv 12?
> 
> Still waiting for that list of 200 HD channel.:hurah:


No, that's called pointing to the appropriate place to discuss DISH's operation. This thread is in a DirecTV forum ...


damondlt said:


> Why isn't DBS Talk Hounding D*?
> I thought DBS Talk had tons of connections with Directv?


Connections, yes. But DirecTV doesn't get to run our site and DBSTalk doesn't get to run DirecTV (or DISH).


----------



## PhilS

RAD said:


> From DirecTV's Twitter page:
> 
> _"SwanniOnHD We will be announcing future HD plans for DIRECTV later this year. Stay tuned to directv.com for the latest information. "_.
> 
> What concerns me is that they've gone from responding with 'soon' to 'later this year' when responding to questions about new HD.


From the lastest press release on 3D "..ESPN 3D will showcase a minimum of 85 live sporting events during its first year, beginning June 11 with the first 2010 FIFA World Cup match..". Also the SEC S-4 filing on 4/16/10 says second quarter "...when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010..." That is the latest public information I could find.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hoosier205 said:


> Later this year could also mean 5 minutes from now. Relax folks. Once again, for probably the 1,000th time...we have absolutely no cause for concern whatsoever.
> 
> Special attention should also be paid to who they were responding to. As if they would give "it" any good info.


30 day 76° extension filed twice
200+ capacity verbiage removed from DIRECTV.com
200+ capacity commercials removed from TV ads.
DISH just announced 200 HD channels, not capacity.

Are these cause for celebration?

Sure, let's not panic. In turn, let's not stick our heads in the sand.


----------



## RAD

damondlt said:


> Why isn't DBS Talk Hounding D*?
> I thought DBS Talk had tons of connections with Directv?


There have been a few mods, along with Earl, posting here that their sources are saying that D12 is OK and have posted so here.


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> There have been a few mods, along with Earl, posting here that their sources are saying that D12 is OK and have posted so here.


 Maybe so but, Updates by Earl is whats needed.
Even if its Everything is Fine at this point, Or Yes a slight delay in testing.

Not the Fcc filing for a 30 day extension. All that causes if Fear and Tons of unaswered questions.


----------



## BudShark

damondlt said:


> Maybe so but, Updates by Earl is whats needed.
> Even if its Everything is Fine at this point, Or Yes a slight delay in testing.
> 
> Not the Fcc filing for a 30 day extension. All that causes if Fear and Tons of unaswered questions.


I don't think we can ask a DirecTV employee to publicly state what is going on with D12. That is not fair to them, and likely not going to happen.

The Moderators and anyone else who has contacts will post what they can. And right now that is "Fine and Soon"


----------



## damondlt

Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


----------



## Hoosier205

Hutchinshouse said:


> 30 day 76° extension filed twice
> 200+ capacity verbiage removed from DIRECTV.com
> 200+ capacity commercials removed from TV ads.
> DISH just announced 200 HD channels, not capacity.
> 
> Are these cause for celebration?
> 
> Sure, let's not panic. In turn, let's not stick our heads in the sand.


...marketing programs run for a select period of time and then end. Show me some proof that they were purposely halted rather than being allowed to run their course.

I really do not care how many HD channels Dish Network has. Each additional channel they add comes at a cost. Picture quality suffers because they cut corners. No thank you. I'd rather spend my money wisely. Anyone who wants HD-Lite and over-compression can easily switch providers. Otherwise, folks can be patient and wait for things to be handled the right way.

We are not far enough removed from the D12 launch date for anyone to panic. It will be live soon enough and we will all have more than enough to be happy about. Folks who want to switch to a lower quality provider should do it already and spare us their constant whining. I deal with folk daily who complain just for the sake of complaining. I expect it in my workplace. I grow tired of it here. If the teary-eyed among us have have something new to add, be my guest. It is doubtful that they do, so we continue to watch for...wait for it...actual news.


----------



## dpeters11

damondlt said:


> Maybe so but, Updates by Earl is whats needed.
> Even if its Everything is Fine at this point, Or Yes a slight delay in testing.
> 
> Not the Fcc filing for a 30 day extension. All that causes if Fear and Tons of unaswered questions.


Earl has to be careful in his role here, he's basically here in a limited capacity for specific reasons. The other mods are probably very careful with their sources, if they hound them too much, they won't be sources anymore.


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


It is the same message every day until that message changes.

*D12 is fine and will be on service as scheduled.*

There is your daily report.


----------



## BudShark

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


My HR24 works great without D12. 

I understand the concern. I think we are in the mode of daily updates will be given if there is anything to be given. But repeating "Fine and Soon" is not necessarily required.

I think our perspective is off a bit. While D12 is very important to D* and it is a huge investment, the daily business, carriage agreements, and current promotions are all more important than what day D12 gets turned on. The business will continue if D12 fails. It will not continue if D* stops everything to have everyone focus on D12. I know thats not what you are suggesting, but it hopefully helps put it in perspective.


----------



## RAD

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


DirecTV has always been more closed mouth about the exact status of their satellites then Dish. Go back to D10 as an example, you got a cryptic PR saying there were some issues with it but it wouldn't effect their plans vs. Dish which tells you things like a sat has lost some solar arrays or TWA's.

With lack of an official statement all we're left to do is make up our own news some of which will be the glass is half full and the rest is the glass is half empty.

Do I personally think something unexpected has happened on D12, yes (not inside info,just my opinion), but IIRC DirecTV's said in the past more HD in the 1st half of 2010 so we still have some time before we reach that timeframe.


----------



## Athlon646464

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


Daily updates? !rolling

They would say 'Still in the testing phase', 'not drifting' yet.

WE wouldn't know any more than we do now........

They would never say why unless it was important for us to know, if ever. It will either be OK eventually (soon), or not be OK, or something in between.

It is what it is, but they certainly don't owe this board daily updates. :hurah:


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


According to you maybe. DirecTV runs their own business. You and I simply pay for a service. If we don't like the service...we move on. They are offering you and I a luxury and not a necessity. Unless you work for DirecTV, you have no idea what is most important to them.

...the HR24's are not at all dependent upon D12. They are just as worthy as any other receiver with the existing sats we have available. The main advantages of the HR24's are increased speed and MRV...neither of which have anything to do with D12.


----------



## jacmyoung

TDK1044 said:


> ...The reality would appear to be that at one point D12 was ahead of schedule, and then another area of testing redressed that balance and created a delay...


Is this for a fact or just another, using your own words, speculative nonsense?


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> You and I simply pay for a service.like the  They are offering you and I a luxury and not a necessity. Unless you work for DirecTV, you have no idea what is most important to them.
> 
> .


 At a premium price.
Yes D12 , Billions of dollars invested, But thats not most important to them.:lol::lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

The bottom line is this: Neither DirecTV nor Dish Network owe their customers any updates whatsoever on the progress of launched satellites. 

We are not paying for future products and/or services. We are paying for what is being provided right this very moment. If we don't like that, we have the ability to choose a different provider.


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> Do I personally think something unexpected has happened on D12, yes (not inside info,just my opinion), but IIRC DirecTV's said in the past more HD in the 1st half of 2010 so we still have some time before we reach that timeframe.


 Agree.
But a company with Share holders is not supposted to keep inside info.


----------



## TDK1044

D* is currently more than holding its own with DISH and the cable companies in terms of number and quality of HD channels offered. 

They are going to take their time and do this thing right. They are not going to rush the final phase of the D12 operation because a few people are demanding that they must be able to watch wombat hunting in Queensland or whatever in HD. 

Much better to have a fully functional satellite in a few months time than a satellite still needing adjustments when it reaches its final position.


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> The bottom line is this: Neither DirecTV nor Dish Network owe their customers any updates whatsoever on the progress of launched satellites.
> 
> We are not paying for future products and/or services. We are paying for what is being provided right this very moment. If we don't like that, we have the ability to choose a different provider.


 True, But D* shouldn't say they will have in the future, If they can't deliver.
People do base their choices on those marketing tactics.
And sure you could simple switch, If D* and E* want to waive those $400+ fees.

I'm fine for what we have currently, But That doesn't mean I'm not expecting more. After all D* isn't cheapest.
In this day in age Value is Most important.
D12 is a BIG part of that value.


----------



## Athlon646464

damondlt said:


> Agree.
> But a company with Share holders is not supposted to keep inside info.


Or speculate until they know for certain. (Some call that 'testing'.) :grin:


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> At a premium price.
> Yes D12 , Billions of dollars invested, But thats not most important to them.:lol::lol:


Which pales in comparison to the investment in their daily operations. I'm sure they offer daily internal updates on the status and projections for D12 to those employed by DirecTV who need to know. We (you, me, and every other customer) don't NEED to know. We may want to know, but they don't owe us that information.


----------



## damondlt

Athlon646464 said:


> Or speculate until they know for certain. (Some call that 'testing'.) :grin:


:lol:


----------



## RAD

damondlt said:


> Agree.
> But a company with Share holders is not supposted to keep inside info.


But DirecTV hasn't missed their date yet for when they said they were going to launch new HD. Now if that date passes and DirecTV then hasn't said anything about D12 then I guess we could accuse them of withholding information from investors.


----------



## kevinturcotte

damondlt said:


> True, But D* shouldn't say they will have in the future, If they can't deliver.
> People do base their choices on those marketing tactics.
> And sure you could simple switch, If D* and E* want to waive those $400+ fees.
> 
> I'm fine for what we have currently, But That doesn't mean I'm not expecting more. After all D* isn't cheapest.
> In this day in age Value is Most important.
> D12 is a BIG part of that value.


Exactly. That was my point earlier. *IF* (Not saying there is or isn't, just *IF*) there is something wrong with D12, and they just can't deliver these new HD channels (God forbid they cut off some HD PPVs), should those who signed up under the guise of "200 HD channels" be required to stay, when Dish CAN deliver the 200 HD channels (I know, but let's not get into the whole HD Lite, RSNs, all that stuff)?


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> Which pales in comparison to the investment in their daily operations. I'm sure they offer daily internal updates on the status and projections for D12 to those employed by DirecTV who need to know. We (you, me, and every other customer) don't NEED to know. We may want to know, but they don't owe us that information.


 We would sure wish we knew, when D12 is a Flop, I could pull my money out of there, before the stocks bomb.:eek2:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hoosier205 said:


> ...marketing programs run for a select period of time and then end. Show me some proof that they were purposely halted rather than being allowed to run their course.
> 
> I really do not care how many HD channels Dish Network has. Each additional channel they add comes at a cost. Picture quality suffers because they cut corners. No thank you. I'd rather spend my money wisely. Anyone who wants HD-Lite and over-compression can easily switch providers. Otherwise, folks can be patient and wait for things to be handled the right way.
> 
> We are not far enough removed from the D12 launch date for anyone to panic. It will be live soon enough and we will all have more than enough to be happy about. Folks who want to switch to a lower quality provider should do it already and spare us their constant whining. I deal with folk daily who complain just for the sake of complaining. I expect it in my workplace. I grow tired of it here. If the teary-eyed among us have have something new to add, be my guest. It is doubtful that they do, so we continue to watch for...wait for it...actual news.


So the 200+ HD capacity was merely a "marketing program" that ran its course? :lol:

In fair game, show me proof that it wasn't "purposely halted". 

I've yet to panic. However, I've yet to pop the cork on the champagne.

Peace


----------



## sigma1914

kevinturcotte said:


> Exactly. That was my point earlier. *IF* (Not saying there is or isn't, just *IF*) there is something wrong with D12, and they just can't deliver these new HD channels (God forbid they cut off some HD PPVs), should those who signed up under the guise of "200 HD channels" be required to stay, when Dish CAN deliver the 200 HD channels (I know, but let's not get into the whole HD Lite, RSNs, all that stuff)?


No, because they're bound by the TOS...The TOS doesn't promise 200+ HD.


----------



## Athlon646464

damondlt said:


> :lol:


Just to be clear about my own speculation, and this is based on the info in this thread - D12 is OK yet a little delayed, and/or because of some new and future stuff on this bird it is taking longer than some here are comfortable with.


----------



## damondlt

kevinturcotte said:


> Exactly. That was my point earlier. *IF* (Not saying there is or isn't, just *IF*) there is something wrong with D12, and they just can't deliver these new HD channels (God forbid they cut off some HD PPVs), should those who signed up under the guise of "200 HD channels" be required to stay, when Dish CAN deliver the 200 HD channels (I know, but let's not get into the whole HD Lite, RSNs, all that stuff)?


I don't want then to do what E* does, Thats Cram the hell out of Transponders. I'm with you on that. Thats what I'm afraid will happen if D12 fails.
You know D* isn't going to not add HD. They will find away, I just don't want it to be the Dish Network way.


----------



## kevinturcotte

sigma1914 said:


> No, because they're bound by the TOS...The TOS doesn't promise 200+ HD.


If I signed up after watching one of those commercials, and they wouldn't deliver the 200 HD channels (The average consumer isn't going to care *WHY* just that they're not getting them), I'd tell them to either let me out of my contract, or I was suing for false advertising.


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> True, But D* shouldn't say they will have in the future, If they can't deliver.
> People do base their choices on those marketing tactics.
> And sure you could simple switch, If D* and E* want to waive those $400+ fees.
> 
> I'm fine for what we have currently, But That doesn't mean I'm not expecting more. After all D* isn't cheapest.
> In this day in age Value is Most important.
> D12 is a BIG part of that value.


Those plans are always subject to change as a result of a vast number of reasons. I have no sympathy for folks who fail to understand that.

Once again we have a perfect example of why companies like DirecTV limit the amount of information they provide:


Customers complain that they aren't being given enough information. 
The company in question is reluctant to provide said information because plans are subject to change for various reasons.
Customers continue to complain about the lack of information.
The company relents and gives that information, but with a disclaimer stating that these plans are subject to change.
The plans change
Customers complain that dates and details have changed.
Company reminds the customer about the disclaimer.
Customer complains that they should never have been given the information if the plans were subject to change.
It's a vicious and nasty cycle.


----------



## damondlt

sigma1914 said:


> No, because they're bound by the TOS...The TOS doesn't promise 200+ HD.


 Accually the terms of service doesn't promise any channels.
But if D* took all of them away, they wouldn't be counting their money just Yet.:nono:


----------



## Hoosier205

kevinturcotte said:


> If I signed up after watching one of those commercials, and they wouldn't deliver the 200 HD channels (The average consumer isn't going to care *WHY* just that they're not getting them), I'd tell them to either let me out of my contract, or I was suing for false advertising.


...they would just point you to the disclaimer. Always read the fine print folks. That's your responsibility as a consumer.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Hoosier205 said:


> ...they would just point you to the disclaimer. Always read the fine print folks. That's your responsibility as a consumer.


And isn't it THEIR responsibility to deliver what they promise/advertise?


----------



## sigma1914

kevinturcotte said:


> If I signed up after watching one of those commercials, and they wouldn't deliver the 200 HD channels (The average consumer isn't going to care *WHY* just that they're not getting them), I'd tell them to either let me out of my contract, or I was suing for false advertising.


You'd lose...those ads are very carefully worded with stipulations in small font.


----------



## Hoosier205

kevinturcotte said:


> Exactly. That was my point earlier. *IF* (Not saying there is or isn't, just *IF*) there is something wrong with D12, and they just can't deliver these new HD channels (God forbid they cut off some HD PPVs), should those who signed up under the guise of "200 HD channels" be required to stay, when Dish CAN deliver the 200 HD channels (I know, but let's not get into the whole HD Lite, RSNs, all that stuff)?


No. Why? Because you don't pay for specific channels. You pay for a service and that services is being provided to you. D12 or no D12 does nothing to change that. The disagreement over Versus is an example of this. You shouldn't get out of your contact/EFT just because we lost a channel. You aren't paying for that one channel. You are paying for the overall services. The additional/subtraction/retaining of various channels are all subject to change. That is part of the agreement with any and all television service providers.


----------



## sigma1914

kevinturcotte said:


> And isn't it THEIR responsibility to deliver what they promise/advertise?


They could deliver those 200+ eventually. They never say you'll get 200+ date xx/xx/xxxx.


----------



## Hoosier205

kevinturcotte said:


> And isn't it THEIR responsibility to deliver what they promise/advertise?


If they hadn't noted each and every time that those plans are subject to change and dependent upon many different factors. It's common sense folks. You are already getting what you pay for. The only demand we can make is with our wallets.


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> ...they would just point you to the disclaimer. Always read the fine print folks. That's your responsibility as a consumer.


 Yes But, sometimes these are taken atvatage of, to the point were even the courts think so.
D* isn't squeaky clean. Even with their terms and agreements paper.

They will do what ever they can to make money. They are not your friend. And If you let them get away with immoral stuff, they will continue to get worse.
Lawsuits , while most are dumb, Some aren't though ,Keeps these companys fair and more honest. Look at charlie ergen, who has not sued this guy? 
D* I'm sure has learned a thing or to by just watching him.


----------



## damondlt

sigma1914 said:


> You'd lose...those ads are very carefully worded with stipulations in small font.


 Don't be so sure you would lose.

I know of 500 people who didn't lose.
As some of the customers from Pike County PA Who signed up for D*.

D* claimed we serve your area with locals, Well NY City locals aren't locals.

Customers 1 D* 0


----------



## damondlt

Anyhow it would be nice to know what going on with D* right now.


----------



## kevinturcotte

damondlt said:


> Don't be so sure you would lose.
> 
> I know of 500 people who didn't lose.
> As some of the customers from Pike County PA Who signed up for D*.
> 
> D* claimed we serve your area with locals, Well NY City locals aren't locals.
> 
> Customers 1 D* 0


That's VERY specific though. "We serve your area with locals." Customer calls up to active service and turn on locals. "Sorry. No locals for you."


----------



## sigma1914

damondlt said:


> Don't be so sure you would lose.
> 
> I know of 500 people who didn't lose.
> As some of the customers from Pike County PA Who signed up for D*.
> 
> D* claimed we serve your area with locals, Well NY City locals aren't locals.
> 
> Customers 1 D* 0


Not even close to the same thing.


----------



## sigma1914

damondlt said:


> Anyhow it would be nice to know what going on with D* right now.


http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/about/careers.jsp


----------



## damondlt

kevinturcotte said:


> That's VERY specific though. "We serve your area with locals." Customer calls up to active service and turn on locals. "Sorry. No locals for you."


 But those are grounds for breach of contract.
But D* wouldn't let customers canel without Hundreds in fees. This had to be battled out in court.


----------



## damondlt

sigma1914 said:


> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/about/careers.jsp


Tell me you read this .

DIRECTV (NASDAQ: DTV), is the world's most popular television service delivering state-of-the-art technology, unmatched programming, the most comprehensive sports packages available and industry leading customer service to its more than 24.5 million customers in the U.S. and Latin America. In the U.S.,* DIRECTV offers its 18.4 million customers the capacity for more than 200 HD channels in Dolby 5.1 theater-quality sound*, access to exclusive sports programming such as NFL SUNDAY TICKET™, award winning technology like its DIRECTV® DVR Scheduler and higher customer satisfaction than the leading cable companies for nine years running.


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> Yes But, sometimes these are taken atvatage of, to the point were even the courts think so.
> D* isn't squeaky clean. Even with their terms and agreements paper.
> 
> They will do what ever they can to make money. They are not your friend. And If you let them get away with immoral stuff, they will continue to get worse.
> Lawsuits , while most are dumb, Some aren't though ,Keeps these companys fair and more honest. Look at charlie ergen, who has not sued this guy?
> D* I'm sure has learned a thing or to by just watching him.


You're right. DirecTV is a business and not a friend. I have no sympathy for anyone who fails to understand that. Consumers who don't pay attention to the fine print, don't do their homework, and don't ask the appropriate questions...deserve to get screwed. They are their own problem and not mine. They choose to throw their money away.

We seem to lose focus on the fact that we represent a extremely small number of total DirecTV customers here at DBS. Very, very, very few even know that D12 exists or what the expectations for it are. DirecTV is not going to change an entire business practice just because a few folks here do not agree with it.


----------



## sigma1914

damondlt said:


> Tell me you read this .
> 
> DIRECTV (NASDAQ: DTV), is the world's most popular television service delivering state-of-the-art technology, unmatched programming, the most comprehensive sports packages available and industry leading customer service to its more than 24.5 million customers in the U.S. and Latin America. In the U.S.,* DIRECTV offers its 18.4 million customers the capacity for more than 200 HD channels in Dolby 5.1 theater-quality sound*, access to exclusive sports programming such as NFL SUNDAY TICKET™, award winning technology like its DIRECTV® DVR Scheduler and higher customer satisfaction than the leading cable companies for nine years running.


Ok? The capacity is there...


----------



## jefbal99

damondlt said:


> Sorry, But D* has NOTHING going on thats more important then D12.
> I don't care how many HR24's are available. They aren't much good if D12 is failing.
> This is D* top news and needs to have daily updates.
> This satellite was Launched over 4 months ago.


I would tend to disagree with you. DirecTV has many things going on that are very important. The MRV public roll out in the 4 markets is very big. That ties in the the DECA roll out to get all the networking into the SWiM cloud. That brings up all new installs and install rebuilds going to SWiM configurations. Roll all that together plus the new hardware and DLNA tech showed off at CES, and there is a lot on their plate.

Plus the new 3D channels that are coming for PPV, ESPN, & Discovery.

D12 is important for capacity, however, DirecTV has a little bit of wiggle room with the current config. If there is a catastrophic issue with D12 or it only has 50% of its capacity or any other issue that limits its use, satellites can be replaced. Boeing can build another bird, launch slots can be bought, schedules juggled. It is speculated that DirecTV moved back in the launch order for EulaSat to launch a bird early. Money or other considerations prolly changed hands for that to happen.

As for the posts about Dish Networks 200 HD channels, I'd like the following questions answered...

How many of those are part time HDs (I.E. Game only HD RSNs)?
What is the resolution and bandwidth for the channels?
Can anyone list the 200HD channels with their IPG channel number?

I ask the questions because a buddy had switched from DirecTV to Dish before moving and he always complained that the end of Tigers games got cut off in HD. He said he rarely saw a complete game because the time windows were not long enough. The 2nd goes to PQ, because I could notice a PQ difference when at his house. We had the same make and series model TV, his was just 8" bigger diagonally (42" vs. 50"), so I chalked it up to Dish vs. DirecTV. He also noted that the overall PQ wasn't up to DirecTV standards.


----------



## James Long

sigma1914 said:


> Ok? The capacity is there...


Yep. They are just using it for other things (like SD channels).


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> Yep. They are just using it for other things (like SD channels).


Exactly...and PPV, NFL ST, EI, Golf & Tennis, etc.


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> For D* to sit on their A$$es and do nothing while E* blows D* away in HD is bothersome.
> D* must really think Sports is the answer.
> I see D* having a poor 2nd quarter and E* having a good one.


DIRECTV is not exactly sitting on their rear here .. part of the problem was launch delay .. Echostar has decided to move their sat faster .. There's still an order in place that DVR functionality be turned off @ DISH  .. Besides, when all is said and done I think you're gonna need 14 dishes on your house to pick up everything DISH has to offer.

DIRECTV will have more HD soon .. If I knew for sure which day it was going to be, I'd let you know.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV is not exactly sitting on their rear here .. part of the problem was launch delay .. Echostar has decided to move their sat faster .. There's still an order in place that DVR functionality be turned off @ DISH  .. Besides, when all is said and done I think you're gonna need 14 dishes on your house to pick up everything DISH has to offer.
> 
> DIRECTV will have more HD soon .. If I knew for sure which day it was going to be, I'd let you know.


Your signature is the only thing keeping me sane. :lol:


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Besides, when all is said and done I think you're gonna need 14 dishes on your house to pick up everything DISH has to offer.


You forgot the  ... 

DISH is a one dish system except in AK/HI and a few places where signal strengths are an issue. They are still working on the conversion but one dish east or one dish west is the plan. All DBS ... no FSS Ku or Ka. DISH is using their non-DBS bandwidth for commercial feeds.

(And now back to DirecTV ...)


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> Why isn't DBS Talk Hounding D*?
> I thought DBS Talk had tons of connections with Directv?


:shrug: .. What exactly should I say to DIRECTV?


----------



## kevinturcotte

James Long said:


> You forgot the  ...
> 
> DISH is a one dish system except in AK/HI and a few places where signal strengths are an issue. They are still working on the conversion but one dish east or one dish west is the plan. All DBS ... no FSS Ku or Ka. DISH is using their non-DBS bandwidth for commercial feeds.
> 
> (And now back to DirecTV ...)


I'm in the Portland, ME area. Could I get ALL channels, including ALL locals, with *dish*?


----------



## Doug Brott

James Long said:


> You forgot the  ...
> 
> DISH is a one dish system except in AK/HI and a few places where signal strengths are an issue. They are still working on the conversion but one dish east or one dish west is the plan. All DBS ... no FSS Ku or Ka. DISH is using their non-DBS bandwidth for commercial feeds.
> 
> (And now back to DirecTV ...)


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Doug Brott said:


> :shrug: .. What exactly should I say to DIRECTV?


Please start the drift. :lol:


----------



## damondlt

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm in the Portland, ME area. Could I get ALL channels, including ALL locals, with *dish*?


 You can't bairly get anything in ME with Dish.

Eastern Arc Has Issues. Half of my DMA is out of the spotbeam. What a Joke.
And I have to use The Dish+ Reflector on a 1000.4 setup just to get ample signal against rain fade.

D* is Way more signal stable and it can be had everywhere you can get a line of site.


----------



## James Long

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm in the Portland, ME area. Could I get ALL channels, including ALL locals, with *dish*?


It depends on what your definition of "all" is. I'm not in Maine and I get all of my locals but some are over the air for HD.
You'd have to check in the DISH forums but Maine should be one dish with DISH - but it is the fringe of the footprints.


----------



## Hoosier205

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm in the Portland, ME area. Could I get ALL channels, including ALL locals, with *dish*?


http://dishnetwork.com/packages/local/default.aspx


----------



## Satelliteracer

May flowers are the result of April showers 

Get the pole out of the attic


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


New HD next month?


----------



## damondlt

Hutchinshouse said:


> Please start the drift. :lol:


 Give us a Status Update?

That doesn't sound to impersonal, or a far fetched request.
Fcc filing has many of your customers a little concerned.

Put them at ease.

Doesn't sound unreasonable.


----------



## Hoosier205




----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> Agree.
> But a company with Share holders is not supposted to keep inside info.


D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## kevinturcotte

James Long said:


> It depends on what your definition of "all" is. I'm not in Maine and I get all of my locals but some are over the air for HD.
> You'd have to check in the DISH forums but Maine should be one dish with DISH - but it is the fringe of the footprints.


Since they don't offer 3 of my locals in HD, I imagine that automatically requires 110 or 119 to get the SD versions? Would a 1 dish solution still be available?


----------



## Hoosier205

I've got mine ready!


----------



## jefbal99

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


Thanks SR, now this thread will get back to regularly scheduled insanity :hurah:


----------



## kevinturcotte

Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


As you watch on your Tivo enabled HMC3*1* lol j/k


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> http://dishnetwork.com/packages/local/default.aspx


 There is more to it the just that. Eastern Arc has signal issues and spotbeam issues. 
In Many North Eastern US citys.

Yes Scranton Wilkes Barre Locals are Available too , But only the Eastern Half of the DMA is Under the Eastern Arc 61.5 spotbeam 
Some customers have to use 4 dish Setups, just to get locals and all their HD nationals
Its not all its cracked up to be at Dish Network.


----------



## LameLefty

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


The Festivus pole? 

Da comrade. We will all celebrate May Day like the true Heroes of Socialism we are!


----------



## Doug Brott

sigma1914 said:


> Ok? The capacity is there...





James Long said:


> Yep. They are just using it for other things (like SD channels).


We have a winner! .. There was no lie, but "capacity" is about the same as Comcast saying they have more HD at any one time than anyone else (clearly counting On Demand) ...

It's all a numbers game and bigger is better.


----------



## James Long

kevinturcotte said:



> Since they don't offer 3 of my locals in HD, I imagine that automatically requires 110 or 119 to get the SD versions? Would a 1 dish solution still be available?


Typically eastern arc markets have the SD channels (including locals) on an eastern arc satellite. Once a local becomes available in HD the SD version on eastern arc goes away.


----------



## CorpITGuy

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


:biggthump:goodjob:


----------



## kevinturcotte

damondlt said:


> There is more to it the just that. Eastern Arc has signal issues and spotbeam issues.
> In Many North Eastern US citys.
> 
> Yes Scranton Wilkes Barre Locals are Available too , But only the Eastern Half of the DMA is Under the Eastern Arc 61.5 spotbeam
> Some customers have to use 4 dish Setups, just to get locals and all their HD nationals
> Its not all its cracked up to be at Dish Network.


4 dishes to get everything? Good one!!! :nono2: 
Gee, one dish with Directv, or 4 with Dish Network? Which SHOULD I choose? lol


----------



## damondlt

kevinturcotte said:


> Since they don't offer 3 of my locals in HD, I imagine that automatically requires 110 or 119 to get the SD versions? Would a 1 dish solution still be available?


 NOPE!


----------



## Indiana627

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


YES!


----------



## sigma1914

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


The above post will either be the "see we told you so," or "what a bunch of BS & more lies from Directv" reference post. 

Poor satracer...you're efforts are appreciated no matter what happens.


----------



## Sixto

Satelliteracer said:


> May Flowers are the result of April Showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic.


All is fine.


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> Typically eastern arc markets have the SD channels (including locals) on an eastern arc satellite. Once a local becomes available in HD the SD version on eastern arc goes away.


Yep and Scranton Wilkes barre PA, The Western Half of the DMA is Still an Eastern arc City, That can't receive ANY locals because the spotbeam doesn't cover the entire DMA.

So they Have to Use a Dish 500 for Locals,at the 119, and the Eastern arc 1000.4 Just to get HD, Because the 129 can't be had in our area.

Also Some Customers Already Have the 110/119 setup with a wing at the 61.5, And Now they are forced to put up another Dish for the 72.7 because thats where now puts the eastern arc HD channels now. And Dish won't consider them Eastern Arc. Its a Mess. Maine I hear is worse.
International Customers forget it. You need a 500+ and a 1000.4 in Eastern Arc


----------



## Doug Brott

OK .. Enough DISH talk .. Please take DISH discussion to the appropriate threads. Thank You.


----------



## BudShark

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


Good... very good to hear!


----------



## Hdhead

BudShark said:


> Good... very good to hear!


I'm thick, could you enlighten me on the meaning of the second statement? All I can think of is that I'll need the pole to mount a dish pointed at 76. :eek2:


----------



## slimoli

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


Great ! We need more flowers and less showers!


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> I'm thick, could you enlighten me on the meaning of the second statement? All I can think of is that I'll need the pole to mount a dish pointed at 76. :eek2:


May Pole. Festivus Pole. Either way, a sign of celebration.


----------



## thelucky1

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


Thanks as always Satelliteracer. I will patiently wait for further updates from the usual trustworthy members like _Satelliteracer, Sixto and Doug_ (just to name a few). May is just around the corner!


----------



## joed32

Most of us don't mind waiting, just the uncertainty. Thank you Satelliteracer.


----------



## Hdhead

LameLefty said:


> May Pole. Festivus Pole. Either way, a sign of celebration.


Thanks lefty, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me.


----------



## s_m

Athlon646464 said:


> (Some call that 'testing'.) :grin:


Or 'troubleshooting'.


----------



## matt

Doug says it's fine and everyone starts picking apart the words he uses and is about to riot.

Satelliteracer just says to get a pole out of the attic with no real explanation, everyone interprets that as a good thing, and everyone calms down.

This thread cracks me up :lol:


----------



## oldfantom

I would contend that there is nothing to be said here of much use to most people watching the thread. Well, nothing short of "it is moving". The happy camp will remain sure that all is well until something is not well. The sad camp will continue to assert something is wrong until something is well. 

EDIT : Then Sat racer says something that is of use. Darn you racer for invalidating my point !!  The should be an :I_JEST: emoticon.

Since Scott is no longer blogging the D* calls, is there anyone who can step up and do so? While the analysts often don't care about the things we care about, they may this time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> All is fine.





Doug Brott said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned





Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


There you go - everything we actually want to / need to know in a single post. We are all know "informed".


----------



## tonyd79

matt1124 said:


> Doug says it's fine and everyone starts picking apart the words he uses and is about to riot.
> 
> Satelliteracer just says to get a pole out of the attic with no real explanation, everyone interprets that as a good thing, and everyone calms down.
> 
> This thread cracks me up :lol:


That is because Satracer works for DirecTV and has always been the harbinger of new channels, new markets, etc. The pole he is referring to is the Festivus Pole from Seinfeld. Additions of HD have been referred to as Festivus on this forum since D10 went live.

A bit fortune cookie, yes. He cannot be more specific until he has exact dates and exact channels. Even then, sometimes he is a bit vague as a semi-official spokesman.

That little fortune cookie from Satracer adds to what most of us believed from Doug and company because we are now getting a little more specific.


----------



## bamaweather

Well, Festivus does start with the airing of grievances. I guess that has been more than taken care of in this thread. :lol:


----------



## matt

tonyd79 said:


> That is because Satracer works for DirecTV and has always been the harbinger of new channels, new markets, etc. The pole he is referring to is the Festivus Pole from Seinfeld. Additions of HD have been referred to as Festivus on this forum since D10 went live.
> 
> A bit fortune cookie, yes. He cannot be more specific until he has exact dates and exact channels. Even then, sometimes he is a bit vague as a semi-official spokesman.


I already knew that, I just thought it was funny. I still do! :lol:


----------



## Lee L

bamaweather said:


> Well, Festivus does start with the airing of grievances. I guess that has been more than taken care of in this thread. :lol:


THats the funniest thing I have read in this thread for a while!


----------



## slimoli

From Directv Twitter, 1 hour ago

"@dolfan4 The date hasn't been finalized but we expect to have news on the new channels soon. "

"soon" is much better than "later this year".


----------



## sigma1914

slimoli said:


> From Directv Twitter, 1 hour ago
> 
> "@dolfan4 The date hasn't been finalized but we expect to have news on the new channels soon. "
> 
> "soon" is much better than "later this year".


Soon, like May.


Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


----------



## ptuck874

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There you go - everything we actually want to / need to know in a single post. We are all know "informed".


indeed, thanks guys!! never doubted you for a second!!!


----------



## Curtis0620

I would anticipate movement westward.


----------



## damondlt

Curtis0620 said:


> I would anticipate movement westward.


 Today?


----------



## curt8403

Curtis0620 said:


> I would anticipate movement westward.


based on what we have heard (and I do not know for sure) I would say :joy:


----------



## Doug Brott

slimoli said:


> From Directv Twitter, 1 hour ago
> 
> "@dolfan4 The date hasn't been finalized but we expect to have news on the new channels soon. "
> 
> "soon" is much better than "later this year".


I'm pretty sure that there is more than one person responding to these tweets .. So it stands to reason that one person's "soon" is another person's "later" ..

Either way, seems like unpacking your Festivus pole is a good thing, yes?


----------



## James Long

slimoli said:


> From Directv Twitter, 1 hour ago
> 
> "@dolfan4 The date hasn't been finalized but we expect to have news on the new channels soon. "
> 
> "soon" is much better than "later this year".


News soon not channels later ... but channels in May is the apparent news.
Good news!


----------



## Doug Brott

Curtis0620 said:


> I would anticipate movement westward.


Haven't we all been anticipating this for some time now?


----------



## damondlt

Doug Brott said:


> ..
> 
> Either way, seems like unpacking your Festivus pole is a good thing, yes?


Wow , I thought you guys were talking about antennas for OTA. That scared me.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## rey_1178

James Long said:


> News soon not channels later ... but channels in May is the apparent news.
> Good news!


they learned how to use this word pretty well from charlie


----------



## rey_1178

damondlt said:


> Wow , I thought you guys were talking about antennas for OTA. That scared me.:eek2::eek2:


:hurah::hurah:


----------



## stephenC

tonyd79 said:


> That is because Satracer works for DirecTV and has always been the harbinger of new channels, new markets, etc. The pole he is referring to is the Festivus Pole from Seinfeld. Additions of HD have been referred to as Festivus on this forum since D10 went live.
> 
> A bit fortune cookie, yes. He cannot be more specific until he has exact dates and exact channels. Even then, sometimes he is a bit vague as a semi-official spokesman.
> 
> That little fortune cookie from Satracer adds to what most of us believed from Doug and company because we are now getting a little more specific.


I hope you aren't right about SatRacer being a DirecTV employee. If that is true, then he has access to insider information. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the status of a new satellite would be material to the bottom line of the financials. SEC rules can be very tough when it comes to insider trading. Not that any of us techies would be trading DirecTV stock based on D12 information.


----------



## damondlt

rey_1178 said:


> :hurah::hurah:


 ITS NOT FUNNY.:crying::crying::crying:

LOL!


----------



## sigma1914

stephenC said:


> I hope you aren't right about SatRacer being a DirecTV employee. If that is true, then he has access to insider information. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the status of a new satellite would be material to the bottom line of the financials. SEC rules can be very tough when it comes to insider trading. Not that any of us techies would be trading DirecTV stock based on D12 information.


He never posts info he isn't allowed to by his bosses.


----------



## slimoli

Doug Brott said:


> Either way, seems like unpacking your Festivus pole is a good thing, yes?


Absolutely!


----------



## James Long

damondlt said:


> Wow , I thought you guys were talking about antennas for OTA. That scared me.:eek2::eek2:


What scares me is I was thinking antennas too ... same wavelength? :eek2:


----------



## damondlt

sigma1914 said:


> He never posts info he isn't allowed to by his bosses.


As far as a Future channel list. D* CSR are giving out that information.
I have a confirmed List launching this year. Yes Confirmed. 
But I'll only post it If the Mods say I can.
But you guys most likly have the list here floating around somewhere.


----------



## RAD

stephenC said:


> I hope you aren't right about SatRacer being a DirecTV employee. If that is true, then he has access to insider information. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the status of a new satellite would be material to the bottom line of the financials. SEC rules can be very tough when it comes to insider trading. Not that any of us techies would be trading DirecTV stock based on D12 information.


In the 2009 DirecTV annual report it says:

_"In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."_

AFAIK we're still in the second quarter and have about 2.5 months to go before we aren't. So what SR has posted isn't anything different then DirecTV has said in financial filings.


----------



## damondlt

James Long said:


> What scares me is I was thinking antennas too ... same wavelength? :eek2:


 OTA would be bad, I can't get even 1 Channel .
I'm in the boonies.:nono2:


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> AFAIK we're still in the second quarter and have about 2.5 months to go before we aren't. So what SR has posted isn't anything different then DirecTV has said in financial filings.


This is the only thing keeping me hopefull, is That D* said HD in the 2nd Quarter.


----------



## sigma1914

damondlt said:


> As far as a Future channel list. D* CSR are giving out that information.
> I have a confirmed List launching this year. Yes Confirmed.
> But I'll only post it If the Mods say I can.
> But you guys most likly have the list here floating around somewhere.


CSR Confirmed?


----------



## James Long

sigma1914 said:


> CSR Confirmed?


Oxymoron? (At least by stereotype.)


----------



## damondlt

sigma1914 said:


> CSR Confirmed?


 And some other sources. This List has been out Over a month now.
Its not really new news.
But again I need permission to post it, Or Just call D* and Ask them yourself.
I've call 4 times in the past month and Each time the list was the same.

All they say is they have no dates for the release, but contracts are signed.


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> Oxymoron? (At least by stereotype.)


:lol: That was my feeling. I've heard/seen some funny "confirmed" CSR info.


----------



## Doug Brott

damondlt said:


> As far as a Future channel list. D* CSR are giving out that information.
> I have a confirmed List launching this year. Yes Confirmed.
> But I'll only post it If the Mods say I can.
> But you guys most likly have the list here floating around somewhere.


We have a thread for that ...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174546


----------



## SuperZ06

joed32 said:


> Most of us don't mind waiting, just the uncertainty. Thank you Satelliteracer.


*+1 

*


----------



## damondlt

Doug Brott said:


> We have a thread for that ...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174546


I put the list in. I didn't check to see if it was already there though.
So feel free to delete it if it is.


----------



## oldfantom

James Long said:


> Oxymoron? (At least by stereotype.)


To relate this to something I know a little about. Generals rarely share the battle plans with privates. What the privates learn is filtered down from the top to the bottom and parsed into smaller and smaller sub sections. They are expendable, but required. They are trained just enough. They are paid poorly. Generals get fired, privates get killed. Just saying.


----------



## ATARI

RAD said:


> In the 2009 DirecTV annual report it says:
> 
> _"In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."_
> 
> AFAIK we're still in the second quarter and have about 2.5 months to go before we aren't. So what SR has posted isn't anything different then DirecTV has said in financial filings.


In other words, things are still going as planned.


----------



## tonyd79

stephenC said:


> I hope you aren't right about SatRacer being a DirecTV employee. If that is true, then he has access to insider information. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the status of a new satellite would be material to the bottom line of the financials. SEC rules can be very tough when it comes to insider trading. Not that any of us techies would be trading DirecTV stock based on D12 information.


Uh, no, it is not insider trading to post something to an open forum on an open medium (the internet). What is insider about that?

Besides, all he is doing is confirming something that is happening, with full knowledge of DirecTV. He is not breaking news nor contradicting any official releases.

No way the market moves on more HD channels coming or not coming. Get a grip.


----------



## tonyd79

ATARI said:


> In other words, things are still going as planned.


Shh. That is a phrase that gets some of the natives riled up.


----------



## slimoli

A new conference call has been announced:

EL SEGUNDO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- DIRECTV (DTV:$35.90,00$0.35,000.98%) will host a conference call and Internet webcast to discuss its 2010 first quarter financial results, outlook and other forward looking information on Thursday, May 6, 2010 at 11:00 a.m. PT / 2:00 p.m. ET.


----------



## Sixto

Updated post#1 with #159 - Similar.


----------



## Tele-TV

thelucky1 said:


> Thanks as always Satelliteracer. I will patiently wait for further updates from the usual trustworthy members like _Satelliteracer, Sixto and Doug_ (just to name a few). May is just around the corner!


EDITED quote with underline.

IF the new HD channels come online in May, than I will have 2 things to look forward to. New HD channels and a new movie theatre in my area.


----------



## sunking

tonyd79 said:


> Uh, no, it is not insider trading to post something to an open forum on an open medium (the internet). What is insider about that?
> 
> Besides, all he is doing is confirming something that is happening, with full knowledge of DirecTV. He is not breaking news nor contradicting any official releases.
> 
> No way the market moves on more HD channels coming or not coming. Get a grip.


What? Are you saying that the sat/cable industry is not some massive cloak and dagger game and things just kind of move along and fall into place without massive interference from competitors?


----------



## tonyd79

sunking said:


> What? Are you saying that the sat/cable industry is not some massive cloak and dagger game and things just kind of move along and fall into place without massive interference from competitors?


I don't understand your point or your joke?


----------



## sunking

tonyd79 said:


> I don't understand your point or your joke?


Simply that some people on here seem to think that Directv and the industry in general all operate under super secret conditions and somehow some little leak of information has massive ramifications. Which it obviously doesn't. Directv doesn't tell us much simply because there's no reason to and opening up a dialog on it all does nothing except use resources and add to confusion. Has very little to do with investors or revealing the location of their super secret base in skull island they will soon be using to blast other satellites down.


----------



## Billzebub

damondlt said:


> Don't be so sure you would lose.
> 
> I know of 500 people who didn't lose.
> As some of the customers from Pike County PA Who signed up for D*.
> 
> D* claimed we serve your area with locals, Well NY City locals aren't locals.
> 
> Customers 1 D* 0


I didn't think there were 500 people in Pike County.


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> Simply that some people on here seem to think that Directv and the industry in general all operate under super secret conditions and somehow some little leak of information has massive ramifications. Which it obviously doesn't. Directv doesn't tell us much simply because there's no reason to and opening up a dialog on it all does nothing except use resources and add to confusion. Has very little to do with investors or revealing the location of their super secret base in skull island they will soon be using to blast other satellites down.


We all know the super secret base is not in skull island .. It's in a pineapple under the sea


----------



## Athlon646464

sunking said:



> Simply that some people on here seem to think that Directv and the industry in general all operate under super secret conditions and somehow some little leak of information has massive ramifications. Which it obviously doesn't. Directv doesn't tell us much simply because there's no reason to and opening up a dialog on it all does nothing except use resources and add to confusion. Has very little to do with investors or revealing the location of their super secret base in skull island they will soon be using to blast other satellites down.


The SEC rules are what they are. It's not a matter of degree. _*A*_*ny* use of any info, even a 'little leak' on a publicly traded company by someone deemed to be an insider (like an employee in the know) could be illegal.

If the precise condition of the satellite is not known, then it would be wrong for them to say anything, other than exactly that if they have not met a date promised to investors in the last call.


----------



## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> We all know the super secret base is not in skull island .. It's in a pineapple under the sea


Pffffft. Of course it's not. It's under a volcano in the South Pacific.


----------



## BudShark

Athlon646464 said:


> The SEC rules are what they are. It's not a matter of degree. _*A*_*ny* use of any info, even a 'little leak' on a publicly traded company by someone deemed to be an insider (like an employee in the know) could be illegal.
> 
> If the precise condition of the satellite is not known, then it would be wrong for them to say anything, other than exactly that if they have not met a date promised to investors in the last call.


But I think you are putting too much stock into his post. He didn't confirm or deny anything. He posted a little saying. Now, in the context of that little saying, and where he posted it, we can assume he meant D12 will be live in or around May, of course, subject to change.

Considering, the on record statement to the investors from DirecTV is 2nd quarter... he didn't exactly drop earth shattering news. And considering he made no comment about D12, he didn't break any rules.

So at the end of the day, we now know Satracer likes childrens rhymes, is big into Seinfeld, and DirecTV has last publicly stated D12 will serve up new HD in 2nd Quarter 2010.

Lets not try to make this into an SEC investigation when its not even close.


----------



## James Long

Insider trading is generally done behind the scenes ... If I was and insider and told you something privately about a company that allowed you to turn a stock profit or made a trade for myself there would be trouble. But public statements? Not insider trading.

Public statements would be more of a violation of a company's internal confidentiality agreements. I trust that those who say things know the policy and know what not to say.

The third problem would be manipulation. If someone were to spread a rumor to change a stock price so they could make a profit on the later discovered reality there would be a problem. Theoretically someone saying "everything's fine" while they sell their stock could be insider trading but someone encouraging people to sell low on a rumor would be more of a manipulation.


----------



## Athlon646464

BudShark said:


> But I think you are putting too much stock into his post. He didn't confirm or deny anything. He posted a little saying. Now, in the context of that little saying, and where he posted it, we can assume he meant D12 will be live in or around May, of course, subject to change.
> 
> Considering, the on record statement to the investors from DirecTV is 2nd quarter... he didn't exactly drop earth shattering news. And considering he made no comment about D12, he didn't break any rules.
> 
> So at the end of the day, we now know Satracer likes childrens rhymes, is big into Seinfeld, and DirecTV has last publicly stated D12 will serve up new HD in 2nd Quarter 2010.
> 
> Lets not try to make this into an SEC investigation when its not even close.


I think one of us is misinterpreting something (could be me). I was speaking only to Sunking's comment about releasing a 'little bit' of info. Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## damondlt

Billzebub said:


> I didn't think there were 500 people in Pike County.


 You must not know pike county to well then.
2008 Poulation was 59,664


----------



## SteveHas

I have been told that all is ok with D12, by a good source

I am now leaving this thread for good to wait for Festivus


----------



## damondlt

SteveHas said:


> I have been told that all is ok with D12, by a good source
> 
> I am now leaving this thread for good to wait for Festivus


I wish that made me feel better.


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> I wish that made me feel better.


Why wouldn't you feel better? Satelliteracer has spoken. Festivus in May.


----------



## Hdhead

James Long said:


> If someone were to spread a rumor to change a stock price so they could make a profit on the later discovered reality there would be a problem. Theoretically someone saying "everything's fine" while they sell their stock could be insider trading but someone encouraging people to sell low on a rumor would be more of a manipulation.


Look what D* stock did today after Satracer's prophetic comment. :hurah:

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> Why wouldn't you feel better? Satelliteracer has spoken. Festivus in May.


 Promise?


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> Promise?


He wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true. It's part of what he does here.


----------



## damondlt

Hoosier205 said:


> He wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true. It's part of what he does here.


I'm holding you guys to this.:grin:


----------



## Hoosier205

damondlt said:


> I'm holding you guys to this.:grin:


Go for it


----------



## cebbigh

I saw on a previous post that D10 took a couple of weeks for final testing after it arrived at 103. Is that typical or was it prolonged because of issues with the spots? Is approx 5 weeks what we should expect between the time drift begins and D12 goes "live"?


----------



## cartrivision

Athlon646464 said:


> The SEC rules are what they are. It's not a matter of degree. _*A*_*ny* use of any info, even a 'little leak' on a publicly traded company by someone deemed to be an insider (like an employee in the know) could be illegal.
> 
> If the precise condition of the satellite is not known, then it would be wrong for them to say anything, other than exactly that if they have not met a date promised to investors in the last call.


What are you talking about? There was no "leak" of unknown "inside" information... not even a little one.

Just three days ago, as part of their required disclosure related to a public offering of three billion dollars worth of securities, DIRECTV filed this document (link)  with the Securities and Exchange commision in which they said, "In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."

The status of D12 doesn't get any clearer or any less "insider" than that.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Satelliteracer said:


> May flowers are the result of April showers
> 
> Get the pole out of the attic


April showers? that must be code for the sky is falling!


----------



## tonyd79

cebbigh said:


> I saw on a previous post that D10 took a couple of weeks for final testing after it arrived at 103. Is that typical or was it prolonged because of issues with the spots? Is approx 5 weeks what we should expect between the time drift begins and D12 goes "live"?


IIRC, that was also a move to a new location as well as the addition of national MPEG4. More stuff to work out and test. We got to test some of it through some unpublished channels at the time. It was an adventure. It was fun. Not at all like this thread has been.


----------



## oldfantom

Athlon646464 said:


> The SEC rules are what they are. It's not a matter of degree. _*A*_*ny* use of any info, even a 'little leak' on a publicly traded company by someone deemed to be an insider (like an employee in the know) could be illegal.
> 
> If the precise condition of the satellite is not known, then it would be wrong for them to say anything, other than exactly that if they have not met a date promised to investors in the last call.


According to SEC, there is a component to insider trading missing in all this. Trading. It would be insider trading if SatRacer shorted the stock knowing something bad happened. Saying something good (or bad) in a public forum is actually the antithesis of insider trading. It would actually be more along the lines of breaching company secrets.

But this is probably not the place for this discussion. The long and short. What is said is said by the racer is cleared. But then again, he isn't saying much. He never says anything definitive until the very last minute.


----------



## cebbigh

tonyd79 said:


> IIRC, that was also a move to a new location as well as the addition of national MPEG4. More stuff to work out and test. We got to test some of it through some unpublished channels at the time. It was an adventure. It was fun. Not at all like this thread has been.


How long did it take for final testing on D11?


----------



## Athlon646464

cartrivision said:


> What are you talking about? There was no "leak" of unknown "inside" information... not even a little one.
> 
> Just three days ago, as part of their required disclosure related to a public offering of three billion dollars worth of securities, DIRECTV filed this document (link)  with the Securities and Exchange commision in which they said, "In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations."
> 
> The status of D12 doesn't get any clearer or any less "insider" than that.





oldfantom said:


> According to SEC, there is a component to insider trading missing in all this. Trading. It would be insider trading if SatRacer shorted the stock knowing something bad happened. Saying something good (or bad) in a public forum is actually the antithesis of insider trading. It would actually be more along the lines of breaching company secrets.
> 
> But this is probably not the place for this discussion. The long and short. What is said is said by the racer is cleared. But then again, he isn't saying much. He never says anything definitive until the very last minute.


You guys are quoting me out of context. I never said there was a 'leak'. Quite the contrary.

You are quoting my reply to Sunking who said a 'little bit' of info should be OK. I was essentially agreeing with what you both said here.

If regs are broken for personal or corporate gain, they are broken whether a small amount of info or a large amount of info is used.

That's all I said.

It has been thrown out in this thread as a reason for D* being quiet about D12.

IMHO - there has been no news because there is no news.

Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## cartrivision

Athlon646464 said:


> You guys are quoting me out of context. I never said there was a 'leak'. Quite the contrary.
> 
> You are quoting my reply to Sunking who said a 'little bit' of info should be OK. I was essentially agreeing with what you both said here.
> 
> If regs are broken for personal or corporate gain, they are broken whether a small amount of info or a large amount of info is used.
> 
> That's all I said.
> 
> It has been thrown out in this thread as a reason for D* being quiet about D12.
> 
> IMHO - there has been no news because there is no news.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion.


OK, you weren't accusing anyone of leaking inside info, but i wouldn't exactly say that there has been no news. I'd say that DIRECTV's statement three days ago ("In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations.") is definitely news that tells us a lot about the health of D12.


----------



## oldfantom

Athlon646464 said:


> You guys are quoting me out of context. I never said there was a 'leak'. Quite the contrary.
> 
> You are quoting my reply to Sunking who said a 'little bit' of info should be OK. I was essentially agreeing with what you both said here.
> 
> If regs are broken for personal or corporate gain, they are broken whether a small amount of info or a large amount of info is used.
> 
> That's all I said.
> 
> It has been thrown out in this thread as a reason for D* being quiet about D12.
> 
> IMHO - there has been no news because there is no news.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion.


OK, I understand your point. I think this thing started as "bad news would be reported to stockholders". I think good news is withheld until it is good news for reasons of trade secrets and to avoid backlash when things slip.

Now if anyone thinks this is odd or happens no place else, you are not a fan of Diablo or Starcraft. Blizzard is openly anti-committal anti-press release. Ask them when something will be released and the answer is always, it will be released when it is done. Maybe it is a tech thing.

As someone who works in software, I am always happier on goal oriented projects than I am date driven projects. A good result is easier to explain than a good date with a half a product.


----------



## GoPokes43

oldfantom said:


> According to SEC, there is a component to insider trading missing in all this. Trading. It would be insider trading if SatRacer shorted the stock knowing something bad happened. Saying something good (or bad) in a public forum is actually the antithesis of insider trading. It would actually be more along the lines of breaching company secrets.


That's not the right standard. Not only could SatRacer be liable for insider trading if he shorted the stock if something bad happened, but he could also be liable if he told someone else about the bad news that is not publicly available and that person shorted it. The person who shorted the stock could also be liable in certain circumstances. You learn more by reviewing material about "tippers" and "tippees".


----------



## cebbigh

cebbigh said:


> How long did it take for final testing on D11?


Never mind, I googled up the old thread. D11 arrived on 7/21/2008 and went live on 7/31/2008. So we must be getting close to the start of drift for D12 if it is going to bring us a Festivus in May.


----------



## Athlon646464

cartrivision said:


> OK, you weren't accusing anyone of leaking inside info, but i wouldn't exactly say that there has been no news. I'd say that DIRECTV's statement three days ago ("In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations.") is definitely news that tells us a lot about the health of D12.


Holy crap - you guys are tough in this thread. :lol:

By news I meant news about any drifting of D12, which is really what we're waiting for. I may have to go take a writing course, or develop a thick skin. Tough crowd. :eek2:


----------



## SPACEMAKER

I'm sure the SEC is closely monitoring what us dorks post on this message board.


----------



## Beerstalker

GoPokes43 said:


> That's not the right standard. Not only could SatRacer be liable for insider trading if he shorted the stock if something bad happened, but he could also be liable if he told someone else about the bad news that is not publicly available and that person shorted it. The person who shorted the stock could also be liable in certain circumstances. You learn more by reviewing material about "tippers" and "tippees".


Correct, but SR didn't do anything like tell us to sell/buy D* stock so the point is moo  (anyone else wish we had a cow smiley saying moo)


----------



## wallybarthman

SPACEMAKER said:


> I'm sure the SEC is closely monitoring what us dorks post on this message board.


If they are monitoring its for a good laugh... not because they're getting ready to go after SatelliteRacer... that's for sure.


----------



## Groundhog45

SPACEMAKER said:


> I'm sure the SEC is closely monitoring what us dorks post on this message board.


Expect the Men in Black to arrive at your door any minute now.


----------



## jerrylove56

I don’t believe there’s a more pessimistic group of blogers on the net. If D12 is alive or dead the persistent hand wrangling by so many seems so unnecessary. I like my sat service and would love to see its expansion. However, even if D12 never lights up, somehow I believe D** will survive and be profitable.


----------



## cebbigh

Can anyone explain to me how it helps us get additional D12 information to have an ongoing discussion about the SEC investigating Satracer? 

Isn't it kinda like biting the hand that feeds us? Just saying.


----------



## rorkin

cartrivision said:


> OK, you weren't accusing anyone of leaking inside info, but i wouldn't exactly say that there has been no news. I'd say that DIRECTV's statement three days ago ("In the second quarter of 2010, we expect to further expand our offering of HD channels when the recently launched DIRECTV 12 satellite begins operations.") is definitely news that tells us a lot about the health of D12.


This is really valid.. To make "forward looking statments" that are materially 
different from what actually happens with knowlege that the statements are false would land DIRECTV in a heap of hot water with the SEC.
I would consider this to be major evidence that the sat will be as functional as it needs to be to "expand the HD offerings" . THat will be in 2nd quarter 2010 which can be as late as June 30.


----------



## P Smith

Hdhead said:


> Look what D* stock did today after Satracer's prophetic comment. :hurah:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined


Select 1M and you'll see better picture.


----------



## GoPokes43

Beerstalker said:


> Correct, but SR didn't do anything like tell us to sell/buy D* stock so the point is moo  (anyone else wish we had a cow smiley saying moo)


I'm not making a judgment on what SR said, but a tipper does not have to say anything about buying or selling stock to be liable for insider trading. Providing material, nonpublic information is all that is necessary to be liable as a tipper under SEC rules. (Though, I believe the tipper needs to receive a benefit, but that is not a hard standard to meet since the benefit does not have to be monetary and could be as simple as an improved reputation.)


----------



## jimmyv2000

SPACEMAKER said:


> I'm sure the SEC is closely monitoring what us dorks post on this message board.


Just like LE Trolling the Escort section on Craigs List ?
I Just Hope D12 is Fine and we get our new HD
I hope that there is a plan to add more local HD in My area Like WGBH(PBS).
If that happens then my wish is granted.


----------



## tanasi

This thread really gives me a notion of how many insane people are alive in this day and time whether it be from needing lots of attention or simply believing that uninformed opinion really means anything.

Why is an increasingly ridiculous thread like this still stuck?


----------



## smiddy

!rolling "Things are getting better I can feel it!"


----------



## James Long

cebbigh said:


> Never mind, I googled up the old thread. D11 arrived on 7/21/2008 and went live on 7/31/2008. So we must be getting close to the start of drift for D12 if it is going to bring us a Festivus in May.


May is a 31 day month.

The drift is reported to be 20 days ... that would give DirecTV about two more weeks of testing. The STA to test at 76 ends May 7th.



tanasi said:


> Why is an increasingly ridiculous thread like this still stuck?


So people can find it and not start 10 other threads like this.


----------



## Doug Brott

smiddy said:


> !rolling "Things are getting better I can feel it!"


pssst .. D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## jefbal99

Doug Brott said:


> pssst .. D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


why are you whispering like its a secret?


----------



## whatliesbeyond

James Long said:


> May is a 31 day month.
> 
> The drift is reported to be 20 days ... that would give DirecTV about two more weeks of testing. The STA to test at 76 ends May 7th.


If I recall correctly, an 30 day extension request for additional testing was filed on April 15th. If that is granted, DirecTV would have permission to test beyond May 7th.

Ah, you say, but the D12 drift needs to begin by May 7th to allow for a May Festivus. To which I reply, SR indicated we are getting additional HD programming in May, but he did not specifically link this to D12 (unless April showers is code for D12). Technically, DirecTV could supply additional HD now and of course in May, with its current satellites, if it wanted to, by reallocating some HD PPVs or NFLs or whatever.

I doubt this is what SR meant, since he posted his comment about a Festivus pole in this D12 forum. But I thought I'd at least mention the possibility of additional HD programming even apart from D12, and remind you about the recent extension request, since you mentioned the original May 7th deadline.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

jefbal99 said:


> why are you whispering like its a secret?


He doesn't want the SEC to subpoena him and demand that he disclose the identity of whomever is giving him inside information.


----------



## hyde76

jerrylove56 said:


> I don't believe there's a more pessimistic group of blogers on the net.


Clearly you don't read the blogs of UCLA Football *fans*. All they discuss is what's wrong with the team.


----------



## BudShark

Is D12 there yet?


----------



## jasonblair

As a UCLA alum, it's news to me that we worry about football... It's all about what happens inside Pauley Pavilion!


----------



## Sixto

The FCC requests/approvals is certainly getting complicated. 

The details are in post#2 but to summarize.

At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Awaiting approval for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.​May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.

Also just added this all to the end of post#1, so that I could keep track.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> pssst .. D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## tuckerdog

Sixto
Again thanks for your hard work and dedication

Is there a scenario can ask the FCC to wait on approval of let's say the drift request till DTV is ready to let the brakes off and start the drift.

Is this a possibility or is this not allowed. Also if submitting extensions is not a big deal is there any utility to this scenario

Thanks in advance
michael


----------



## Sixto

tuckerdog said:


> Sixto
> Again thanks for your hard work and dedication
> 
> Is there a scenario can ask the FCC to wait on approval of let's say the drift request till DTV is ready to let the brakes off and start the drift.
> 
> Is this a possibility or is this not allowed. Also if submitting extensions is not a big deal is there any utility to this scenario
> 
> Thanks in advance
> michael


I thought they were waiting to approve the Drift, but then they approved the earth station communication for during the Drift. Need both.


----------



## Piratefan98

April showers bring May flowers


----------



## SuperZ06

Sixto said:


> The FCC requests/approvals is certainly getting complicated.
> 
> The details are in post#2 but to summarize.
> 
> At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
> D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.​May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.
> 
> Also just added this all to the end of post#1, so that I could keep track.


*Sixto,

Thank you for a concise update as to where we stand ! 

Please keep up the good work !*


----------



## bigyfoot30

Doug Brott said:


> pssst .. D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Doug Brott is fine and will be on service as planned. :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Sixto said:


> I thought they were waiting to approve the Drift, but then they approved the earth station communication for during the Drift. Need both.


Let's hope the FCC isn't a stickler for deadlines and such, because technically, after midnight tonight, the satellite has neither authority to remain at 76 to test, nor authority to drift to 103. Maybe that's when the self-destruct command is supposed to activate. I was wondering why they put that command in there . . . . .

It's possible that under FCC rules, ithe filing of an extension application might operate to stay the effect of a previously imposed deadline, at least until the commission has an opportunity to rule on the extension application.


----------



## RD in Fla

Sixto said:


> The FCC requests/approvals is certainly getting complicated.
> 
> The details are in post#2 but to summarize.
> 
> At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
> D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.​May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.
> 
> Also just added this all to the end of post#1, so that I could keep track.


So nothing has been approved at 76 beyond today, 4/19, correct?


----------



## Sixto

RD in Fla said:


> So nothing has been approved at 76 beyond today, 4/19, correct?


Correct, as far as I can tell.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Wow, sorry my post caused an explosion of posts. 

Just got caught up, don't have internet at work (well, we do, but we're not suppose to get on for things like this. :sure:

Good things are coming.


----------



## Jeremy W

whatliesbeyond said:


> Let's hope the FCC isn't a stickler for deadlines and such, because technically, after midnight tonight, the satellite has neither authority to remain at 76 to test, nor authority to drift to 103. Maybe that's when the self-destruct command is supposed to activate.


The satellite has authority to stay at 76, DirecTV just can't communicate with it. I realize you were being partially facetious, but the FCC has no authority over the satellite itself, only the communications to and from it.


----------



## EaglePC

here to in low profile,playing possom.


----------



## thelucky1

Directv on Twitter tonight regarding new HD channels from D12 "Details are still being finalized but we expect to have some news on that soon."


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> The satellite has authority to stay at 76, DirecTV just can't communicate with it.


But if DirecTV or the ground crew cannot communicate with D12, D12 cannot stay at 76, it will drift away.



> I realize you were being partially facetious, but the FCC has no authority over the satellite itself, only the communications to and from it.


I am pretty sure if the FCC wants to, it can ask our military to shoot it down, no communication to and from D12 is needed


----------



## Mark Walters

thelucky1 said:


> Directv on Twitter tonight regarding new HD channels from D12 "Details are still being finalized but we expect to have some news on that soon."


It's almost like an automated message... been hearing that for a while now. Soon is the wrong word, because they've been using soon for a long period of time, which nullifies the meaning of the word "soon".


----------



## wmb

jacmyoung said:


> But if DirecTV or the ground crew cannot communicate with D12, D12 cannot stay at 76, it will drift away.


Here is some information on the movement without communiction and station keeping...

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/station-keeping.html

Seems that if this is accurate, we are good for a week or two.


----------



## mobandit

jacmyoung said:


> But if DirecTV or the ground crew cannot communicate with D12, D12 cannot stay at 76, it will drift away.
> 
> I am pretty sure if the FCC wants to, it can ask our military to shoot it down, no communication to and from D12 is needed


Not a GSO bird...low earth orbit we can shoot down...GSO...not so much...


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV can communicate with D12 at 76°, just not let D12 transmit beyond the control signals.

Obviously D12 can stay at 76° until the FCC gives DIRECTV the ok to move. And obviously the FCC won't be unreasonable about that.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## thelucky1

Mark Walters said:


> It's almost like an automated message... been hearing that for a while now. Soon is the wrong word, because they've been using soon for a long period of time, which nullifies the meaning of the word "soon".


yeah I know Mark just passing on info as I wait for trustworthy updates from Sixto, Doug, Lame Lefty and of course Satracer.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Apologies up front for what is a long post. You might want to save it for when you’re having problems falling asleep. 

Some things occur to me:
1) There are people who might not know who Doug, Stuart, or I talk to. Obviously we won’t say. And it is rather incredulous how high we interact within DIRECTV. So I can imagine there would be some doubts about our sources. I’ll let y’all share amongst each other how good our sources have been. (by the way; all the credit goes to DIRECTV and Earl for creating the whole connection. I may have earned the right to play in the sandbox, but building the sandbox was so much more than what I’ve done. )

2) I have said this before and I’m rather overdue for repeating. Every single DIRECTV person I have worked with, talked to, interviewed at CES, chatted with, or otherwise communicated is very customer focused. Everyone.  While I might not have agreed with every decision of what customer focus might mean (I still think a clock on the front of the receivers would be cool...) I have agreed so many, many more times. We have had a lot of fun. 

3) There is a very, very large range between completely perfect and total bust. In fact there is likely a wide range of perfect all by itself… 

For example, totally, completely perfect would be pretty obvious. In a thought experiment, for a moment let’s say a package had 55 transponders but DIRECTV was only promised 50 would be operational on day one. What if 53 were working? Isn’t that kinda perfect?  At least as far as business goes?

4) Keeping #3 in mind, the “plan” is very complete. After having done this a few times, Boeing and DIRECTV know how to test a satellite. (Ok, I’m presuming here—but it makes far more sense than anything else.) 

So the initial schedule might say November 5 (AS AN EXAMPLE to avoid confusion with the current situation.) After the first round of testing, it might appear November 5 might be easy. No contingency days have been needed so far; all is going better than schedule.

During second round of testing a glitch might appear. The plan covers it, whole sections of plan are there for any number of glitches. If the glitch affects only a few transponders and the guaranteed number of transponders is still intact, testing could use up all the contingency days they recently thought they might not need.

In this scenario D12 is still fine. The guaranteed numbers are still met, the schedule is back to the original one, all is good.

Yet from the point of view of an under-informed observer, November 5 became October 28 then back to November 5. Without understanding how these things work, it could easily appear that “something is very wrong.” When in fact, nothing is truly wrong, D12 is still fine, and the plan and schedule are intact.

Ok, in round three of testing let’s say Boeing finds the RF power densities as received aren’t exactly as predicted. Some competitor to DIRECTV is hammering the FCC to be absolutely perfect in the power calculations, so DIRECTV and Boeing decide to run more tests to verify exactly how much power is needed to characterize the reality of Ka band RF coming to Earth. 

Oops, really bad weather hits the East Coast. Boeing can’t run some of the power density tests because the whole issue is how does the power density perform in perfectly clean, sunshiny air. Guess a few more days of contingency in the schedule get used up. Maybe November 5 becomes November 7. No biggie, that is still all good in the big scheme of things. And D12 is still very fine—more than the minimum transponders are working great. Testing just took longer.

Again, from an under-informed point of view, it might look bad; yet really everything is very good. 

Note, I really don’t know if any of the above actually happened. I can guess they could happen in theory. The keywords being “I can guess”. I do not ask. And DIRECTV has not told me.

Back to the outsider’s point of view… Things could be interpreted as being bad just based upon the limited information we have—if it weren’t for our DIRECTV sources. While they know the details and we don’t, we have enough history to trust them.

So all is fine. Maybe not totally, completely, 110% perfect. Yet not bad enough to write the SEC about. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## spartanstew

So, what are you saying?

Is D12 fine?


----------



## Alan Gordon

spartanstew said:


> So, what are you saying?
> 
> Is D12 fine?


... and will it be on service as planned?!   

~Alan


----------



## Rob




----------



## Davenlr

Tom Robertson said:


> Note, I really don't know if any of the above actually happened. I can guess they could happen in theory. The keywords being "I can guess". I do not ask. And DIRECTV has not told me.
> 
> Tom


From a customer service aspect, I would think that providing a dialog of satellite status would be in their best interests. People here are not stupid. If 5 transponders were dead, and they just said they are doing additional testing to see if they can revive them, I doubt anyone on here would complain. The whole reason there are so many news channels is humans have a desire to know. Thats why they slow down for accidents of the freeway. There isnt anything they can do about a wreck, they just want to know about it. I just personally think all the secrecy and lack of information is unnecessary

BTW, you want a clock, Id like to see a channel number display


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Rob said:


>


:lol: awesome!


----------



## carl6

One morning, "soon", I expect to wake up and see an entirely different direction in this thread. D12 will have begun it's move. Another milestone (in what I am certain is a flexible schedule) will have been met. All that will remain will be to travel for a few days to the new orbital position, stabilize there, perhaps some additional testing, and start service to customers.

Life is good, with or without D12. DirecTV is good, with or without D12. DirecTV will still be good once D12 is on service.


----------



## jacmyoung

And Tom who was that "competitor" you were talking about? Did they try to shoot D12 down?


----------



## SuperZ06

Tom Robertson said:


> Note, I really don't know if any of the above actually happened. I can guess they could happen in theory. The keywords being "I can guess". I do not ask. And DIRECTV has not told me.


*Very nice post Tom ! 

My question is:
Would it be improper to ask ? I would understand if it is, but if the reason is sensitive, then they don't have to give an answer.

*


----------



## DCSholtis

I'm going to apologize in advance for being so non-techy but does something like the ash from that volcano in Iceland have anything to do with satellites and such?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Davenlr said:


> From a customer service aspect, I would think that providing a dialog of satellite status would be in their best interests. People here are not stupid. If 5 transponders were dead, and they just said they are doing additional testing to see if they can revive them, I doubt anyone on here would complain. The whole reason there are so many news channels is humans have a desire to know. Thats why they slow down for accidents of the freeway. There isnt anything they can do about a wreck, they just want to know about it. I just personally think all the secrecy and lack of information is unnecessary
> 
> BTW, you want a clock, Id like to see a channel number display


Customer service, perhaps. Then again, only 50k of 18.4M people really are aware of what's going on at all. How much customer servicing does this really do? 

There is another consideration. Sharing information with competitors. Can't do that. 

And stability of the stock price. We see how hard it is to explain "fine" here. Imagine trying to explain all that to investors. Sure, many will take the effort to understand--yet many will not.

Day to day updates of "what is happening" just don't help. It's like micromanaging a project. Doesn't work most of the time.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

SuperZ06 said:


> *Very nice post Tom !
> 
> My question is:
> Would it be improper to ask ? I would understand if it is, but if the reason is sensitive, then they don't have to give an answer.
> 
> *


Good question as I didn't answer that detail. Basically it boils down to DIRECTV can only say so much or violate many of the internal rules and/or the SEC rules. If I ask too many questions, I just waste my and their time. So I've learned to have faith in my relationship. They will tell me what they can. 

And thanks for the compliment.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SuperZ06

Tom Robertson said:


> Good question as I didn't answer that detail. Basically it boils down to DIRECTV can only say so much or violate many of the internal rules and/or the SEC rules. If I ask too many questions, I just waste my and their time. So I've learned to have faith in my relationship. They will tell me what they can.
> 
> And thanks for the compliment.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


*What I understand from your answer is that they tell you everything that they can/allowed to and you report that to us.

You can't report what you don't know.

I'm good ! 

......and you're welcome. *


----------



## Tom Robertson

DCSholtis said:


> I'm going to apologize in advance for being so non-techy but does something like the ash from that volcano in Iceland have anything to do with satellites and such?


No apology necessary. It is an interesting question.

Relatively obviously the ash doesn't fly out all the way to be a problem to geosynchronous satellites. We would see lots of news reports about issues of ash affecting the space shuttle and the international space station first if there was any problem with the ash itself.

While that worry is dispelled, what effect does the ash have on RF signals? Remembering that different volcanoes belch different ash, based on some of the posts in this thread, ash does have an effect. Sounds like Europe was having some satellite disruptions.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

SuperZ06 said:


> *What I understand from your answer is that they tell you everything that they can/allowed to and you report that to us.
> 
> You can't report what you don't know.
> 
> I'm good !
> 
> ......and you're welcome. *


Maybe not everything they can tell me, but often the most interesting stuff. 

And sometimes they tell us things we can't say just yet...

We can say D12 is fine. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SuperZ06

Tom Robertson said:


> And sometimes they tell us things we can't say just yet...


*
DAMN ! lol :lol:

*


----------



## Fog627

Tom Robertson said:


> Apologies up front for what is a long post. You might want to save it for when you're having problems falling asleep.
> 
> Some things occur to me:
> 1) There are people who might not know who Doug, Stuart, or I talk to. Obviously we won't say. And it is rather incredulous how high we interact within DIRECTV. So I can imagine there would be some doubts about our sources. I'll let y'all share amongst each other how good our sources have been. (by the way; all the credit goes to DIRECTV and _*Earl*_ for creating the whole connection. I may have earned the right to play in the sandbox, but building the sandbox was so much more than what I've done. )[/B]


Is this *Earl* the last-chance angel from _Saving Grace_? :lol::lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> ...There is another consideration. Sharing information with competitors. Can't do that. ...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


How come the competitor is already poking fun at this situation? How can we be so sure one of you guys is not a double agent or something? We all know James is at the dark side already


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> How come the competitor is already poking fun at this situation? How can we be so sure one of you guys is not a double agent or something? We all know James is at the dark side already


My point was another reason why DIRECTV might not share information with customers--so it doesn't get to competitors. So some information they just don't share even with the moderators. 

(And we understand. No problem--we want to help, not hurt.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> While there may actually be the potential for more than the announced broadcast bandwidth, it will be activated with no less than the announced capacity.


They can't use more than the announced bandwidth without really pissing off the FCC.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom - thanks for your conceptual tour through the life of D12 in recent weeks and looking forward.

Using my simple concise translation - D12 is on target to move to 103 following testing, and within a planned time line very soon - give or take a couple days - and deliver the HD and related broadcast capacity originally planned. Since D12 has additional technology on board, testing would be anticipated beyond the previous sats in this series. While there may actually be the potential for more than the announced broadcast bandwidth, it will be activated with no less than the announced capacity. 

So in terms of D12's capacity, condition, and timeline - your descriptives illustrate and support just how D12 is fine and will be on service as planned, further underscoring what several Mods have been saying for some time.

No worries. Even a cave man can understand it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> They can't use more than the announced bandwidth without really pissing off the FCC.


Onboard *potential* capacity and *activated* capacity are 2 different things one would think.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Onboard *potential* capacity and *activated* capacity are 2 different things one would think.


One would also think that "no less than" implies the possibility of "more than" as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> One would also think that "no less than" implies the possibility of "more than" as well.


Having backup transponders on board that are only used if and when needed to maintain *planned / approved* bandwidth would not come as a surprise.


----------



## cebbigh

If the STA that ended 4/19 was just for 76, and they have an existing STA to move to 103, is it possible D12 is already drifting to the new location and we are just missing the TLE that would show it?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cebbigh said:


> If the STA that ended 4/19 was just for 76, and they have an existing STA to move to 103, is it possible D12 is already drifting to the new location and we are just missing the TLE that would show it?


Since we have not seen any TLE updates reflecting the last 24 hours...yes..that would certainly seem possible. That would also likely mean we'd see an FCC filing update too.


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Having backup transponders on board that are only used if and when needed to maintain *planned / approved* bandwidth would not come as a surprise.


NOT having them would be a big surprise. Backup transponders are part of good satellite design. There may not be one for every transponder (older satellites) but a system where three physical transponders can cover two different frequencies is common. Reading the satellite filings can uncover such things.

There will also be information on the encoding options the satellite owner plans on using ... including the throughput.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> NOT having them would be a big surprise. Backup transponders are part of good satellite design. There may not be one for every transponder (older satellites) but a system where three physical transponders can cover two different frequencies is common. Reading the satellite filings can uncover such things.
> 
> There will also be information on the encoding options the satellite owner plans on using ... including the throughput.


Exactly.


----------



## reweiss

I've been travelling and haven't been reading this thread for 3 days. I jumped to the 2nd to last page. Other than Tom's really good explanation of a how an outsider might see problems when there are none that are significant, I was able to bypass alot of "fluff" replies. 

As a suggestion, maybe the Mods should make a conscious decision to tell everyone they are not responding on this thread until there is real news. Let the "fear mongers" have a "field day" or get eaten up by their FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). The Mods won't have the answer the same tired pleas to "rub my tummy so I can feel better about D12" 100s of times. 

It's a double edged sword for the Mods. You try to say something constructive and people pick apart every response looking of a hidden meaning that doesn't exist. Then the thread spins out of control.

I vote for the rational people to "Take back this thread"... 

What do you think?


----------



## twaller

James Long said:


> NOT having them would be a big surprise. Backup transponders are part of good satellite design. There may not be one for every transponder (older satellites) but a system where three physical transponders can cover two different frequencies is common. Reading the satellite filings can uncover such things.
> 
> There will also be information on the encoding options the satellite owner plans on using ... including the throughput.


Hmm, very interesting, new modulation scheme, I speculated about this several pages ago.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2423156#post2423156


----------



## davemayo

Tom Robertson said:


> Some competitor to DIRECTV is hammering the FCC to be absolutely perfect in the power calculations


Spectrum Five??


----------



## TDK1044

reweiss said:


> I vote for the rational people to "Take back this thread"...
> 
> What do you think?


We can be thankful that it wasn't named D13. Can you imagine what the Drama Queens would have done with that....

"OMG it's Apollo 13 all over again. Maybe there was an explosion and it's not there at all. How will I watch wombat hunting in Queensland in HD now? D* needs to get another bird on the launchpad as fast as possible! They better get it up there before the soccer world cup or I'm going to DISH."


----------



## BudShark

reweiss said:


> I've been travelling and haven't been reading this thread for 3 days. I jumped to the 2nd to last page. Other than Tom's really good explanation of a how an outsider might see problems when there are none that are significant, I was able to bypass alot of "fluff" replies.
> 
> As a suggestion, maybe the Mods should make a conscious decision to tell everyone they are not responding on this thread until there is real news. Let the "fear mongers" have a "field day" or get eaten up by their FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). The Mods won't have the answer the same tired pleas to "rub my tummy so I can feel better about D12" 100s of times.
> 
> It's a double edged sword for the Mods. You try to say something constructive and people pick apart every response looking of a hidden meaning that doesn't exist. Then the thread spins out of control.
> 
> I vote for the rational people to "Take back this thread"...
> 
> What do you think?


I think its moving that way. The thread has been much more positive the last 2-3 days which is good. The silliness ran its course on all sides.

Without knowing what is going on, we can only watch TLEs and FCC filings. Right now there is no activity on either. So we wait... eagerly. And that anticipation breeds threads like this. Its all good so long as no DBSTalker goes down and gets left behind. :grin:

But - I think Doug, Tom, Stuart's role can be a calming one. Having them reiterate "Fine/Soon" regularly keeps the chattering at bay from all sides.


----------



## Herdfan

TDK1044 said:


> We can be thankful that it wasn't named D13. Can you imagine what the Drama Queens would have done with that....


Well, someone correct me if I am wrong, but D*12 is the the *13th* Satellite to use that naming convention. There was DirecTV 1 and 1-R.

But if you count the 2 Spaceway's, then this is 15.  And makes D*10, the one with the problems, #13.


----------



## BudShark

Herdfan said:


> Well, someone correct me if I am wrong, but D*12 is the the *13th* Satellite to use that naming convention. There was DirecTV 1 and 1-R.
> 
> But if you count the 2 Spaceway's, then this is 15.


Wow... what do you work in the HD channel count department???? :lol:


----------



## jilardi2

Mark Walters said:


> It's almost like an automated message... been hearing that for a while now. Soon is the wrong word, because they've been using soon for a long period of time, which nullifies the meaning of the word "soon".


twitter posts are on service as planned


----------



## CTJon

Has anyone asked if there is a major ground station problem? Couldn't it be that D12 if fine there is a ground station issue and they are leaving D12 in place to better test the ground station when it is fixed.


----------



## wmb

reweiss said:


> I vote for the rational people to "Take back this thread"...
> 
> What do you think?


As a supposedly rational person (I think my wife would disagree, but whose wouldn't?), I would say part of the fun of a thread like this one is the irrationality.

Indeed, this is rather intriguing from a human nature standpoint. We all have the same basic information and expectations. Experts who have some more information are helping us understand the situation, but they do not have complete knowledge, only that things are acceptable. All of us are reading different things into this information. I have worked with a group that is trying to understand how people make decisions regarding the actions that have an effect on the environment, which comes down to how do you make decisions when your data are poor, but there may be significant problems associated with a bad decision (e.g. global warming). Its been interesting to see how people respond, real time to this situation. I don't think the behavioral economists/decision theorists could have designed a better test.

There is a thread for rational people.


----------



## oldfantom

davemayo said:


> Spectrum Five??


We would know if someone filed an injunction against the FCC or D* concerning the move, right? I would think that would make the financial news. But it is interesting to consider that maybe some legal negotiation or wrangling might be the "problem".


----------



## jacmyoung

wmb said:


> ...There is a thread for rational people.


If I understand you correctly, there is not a clear way to determine if people are irrational or not, but nevertheless you think people who participate here are likely irrational, including those who want to "take this thread back"? If so, one has to conclude there cannot be irrational people.


----------



## mobandit

CTJon said:


> Has anyone asked if there is a major ground station problem? Couldn't it be that D12 if fine there is a ground station issue and they are leaving D12 in place to better test the ground station when it is fixed.


Hundreds of posts ago I brought this very point up, to a resounding vote of silence. No one commented, no one even appeared to notice...but I still believe *IF* there is anything wrong that this is just as likely a possibility as something being wrong with D12...and with all the assurances that D12 is fine...if there is a problem causing a delay then this could easily be the explanation.

EDIT: After going backwards in this thread, and finding/reading Tom's post, let me say that I don't think there are any significant problems with D12, or the ground stations.

Just as an aside, the relationship our Mods enjoy with D*, and the additional information we are at times privileged to get, make this site truly unique. I also want to say I appreciate the job the Mods do in maintaining a good forum, and disseminating technical information in a clear, understandable manner. Thanks for all you guys do, and thanks for keeping us informed!


----------



## thelucky1

Tom GREAT summary in your post #6647.

With all of the great information we are fortunate to receive from Sixto, Doug, Lame Lefty and Satelliteracer, I sometimes forget about (or overlook) your informative contributions. I for one appreciate all that you do as well. Keep up the great work!


----------



## Hoosier205

A partial channel list has been released. I posted it in the anticipation thread.


----------



## BudShark

Hoosier205 said:


> A partial channel list has been released. I posted it in the anticipation thread.


That implies D12 is Fine and will be on service _Soon_.


----------



## tkrandall

Herdfan said:


> Well, someone correct me if I am wrong, but D*12 is the the *13th* Satellite to use that naming convention. There was DirecTV 1 and 1-R.
> 
> But if you count the 2 Spaceway's, then this is 15.  And makes D*10, the one with the problems, #13.


Wow...... and Apollo *1* astronauts died in a fire on the pad, and the *25*th shuttle mission blew up, which was Challengers *10*th flight, and Korean Air Lines *007* was shot down .....


----------



## irock

Looks like everyones worries can cease. They announced the HD channel roll out for May.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952


----------



## jacmyoung

irock said:


> Looks like everyones worries can cease. They announced the HD channel roll out for May.


Warried about what? I was never worried, DirecTV already has the capacity to bring on more HDs. Based on the D12 schedule, it does not appear it has much to do with this new HD addition. Am I correct?


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> Warried about what? I was never worried, DirecTV already has the capacity to bring on more HDs. Based on the D12 schedule, it does not appear it has much to do with this new HD addition. Am I correct?


I'm not sure I agree with you.

Coming in May means they have 40 or so days to get D12 in place and active. Assuming it takes roughly 20 days to drift... 

If we get much into May with no movement... its possible to make that conclusion. But today? No.


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you.
> 
> Coming in May means they have 40 or so days to get D12 in place and active. Assuming it takes roughly 20 days to drift...
> 
> If we get much into May with no movement... its possible to make that conclusion. But today? No.


I thought they are asking for 30 more days to do test at 76?


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> I thought they are asking for 30 more days to do test at 76?


They asked for the STA to be extended. It can be retroactive (we've already seen one STA approved for a week prior to its approval) and it does not mean it has to stay there for the full 30 days.


----------



## Civrock

jacmyoung said:


> I thought they are asking for 30 more days to do test at 76?


Doesn't mean they have to use the whole duration. They could just need a few more days.


----------



## radiomandc

On DirecTv's website it shows WGN HD as available now. Is that accurate? Has anyone checked?

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels


----------



## loudo

Hope this settles the doom and gloomers down. I was getting concerned about a few of them working them selves into the big one, looking for negative things to post about D12 being inoperable. 

Let's all grab a second cup of coffee and enjoy it this morning.


----------



## BudShark

radiomandc said:


> On DirecTv's website it shows WGN HD as available now. Is that accurate? Has anyone checked?
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels


WGN is listed under the 30 for May list... not the current list.

Edit: Actually its in BOTH lists... good catch. Interesting... Only one can be right.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Warried about what? I was never worried, DirecTV already has the capacity to bring on more HDs. Based on the D12 schedule, it does not appear it has much to do with this new HD addition. Am I correct?


You are not correct .. The new HD has everything to do with D12.


----------



## Doug Brott

loudo said:


> Hope this settles the doom and gloomers down. I was getting concerned about a few of them working them selves into the big one, looking for negative things to post about D12 being inoperable.
> 
> Let's all grab a second cup of coffee and enjoy it this morning.


It settles it for me


----------



## Mike Bertelson

If they're advertising new channels in May, then I have to wonder if the latest extension was a just in case kinda situation. If they needed another couple of days they’d have it, if not then they drift and light ‘em up. 

Maybe it’s actually as simple as that. 

Mike


----------



## sigma1914

radiomandc said:


> On DirecTv's website it shows WGN HD as available now. Is that accurate? Has anyone checked?
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels





BudShark said:


> WGN is listed under the 30 for May list... not the current list.
> 
> Edit: Actually its in BOTH lists... good catch. Interesting... Only one can be right.


OMG! False advertising! That's it, I'm calling my lawyer!


----------



## Doug Brott

Maybe the TLEs will stop for a while ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sigma1914 said:


> OMG! False advertising! That's it, I'm calling my lawyer!


Every party has a pooper.... :lol:

Hey...its WGN HD....deal with it. :lol:


----------



## BudShark

MicroBeta said:


> If they're advertising new channels in May, then I have to wonder if the latest extension was a just in case kinda situation. If they needed another couple of days they'd have it, if not then they drift and light 'em up.
> 
> Maybe it's actually as simple as that.
> 
> Mike


There's also another possibility... the additional time spent in 76 reduces the time testing at 103...

1 week at 76 + 3 weeks to drift = 4 weeks.
3 weeks to drift + 1 week at 103 = 4 weeks.

Just sayin'... :grin:


----------



## sigma1914

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Every party has a pooper.... :lol:
> 
> Hey...its WGN HD....deal with it. :lol:


But but but, it says it right there! :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BudShark said:


> There's also another possibility... the additional time spent in 76 reduces the time testing at 103...
> 
> 1 week at 76 + 3 weeks to drift = 4 weeks.
> 3 weeks to drift + 1 week at 103 = 4 weeks.
> 
> Just sayin'... :grin:


If it's the same then why not just drift and test like they did with D11? Why go through all the trouble of submitting a new request...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## trdrjeff

Hey! These mods do know what they're talking about...


----------



## BudShark

MicroBeta said:


> If it's the same then why not just drift and test like they did with D11? Why go through all the trouble of submitting a new request...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


Mike Mike Mike... we've been through this.

If they did that - this thread would not have blown up and provided them with entertainment... they get TV for free and get to watch whatever they want... they have to get their entertainment from somewhere else. Sheesh... :sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

CTJon said:


> Has anyone asked if there is a major ground station problem? Couldn't it be that D12 if fine there is a ground station issue and they are leaving D12 in place to better test the ground station when it is fixed.





mobandit said:


> Hundreds of posts ago I brought this very point up, to a resounding vote of silence. No one commented, no one even appeared to notice...but I still believe *IF* there is anything wrong that this is just as likely a possibility as something being wrong with D12...and with all the assurances that D12 is fine...if there is a problem causing a delay then this could easily be the explanation.
> 
> EDIT: After going backwards in this thread, and finding/reading Tom's post, let me say that I don't think there are any significant problems with D12, or the ground stations.
> 
> Just as an aside, the relationship our Mods enjoy with D*, and the additional information we are at times privileged to get, make this site truly unique. I also want to say I appreciate the job the Mods do in maintaining a good forum, and disseminating technical information in a clear, understandable manner. Thanks for all you guys do, and thanks for keeping us informed!


mobandit, sorry I missed your surmise. You and CTJon do add another possible scenario to the "what could delay testing and yet D12 is fine" saga. Good job.

And to anyone who has ever appreciated the work we do, thanks. We do it for the [strike]money[/strike], the [strike]fame[/strike], the [strike]women[/strike], and the great readers here. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BudShark said:


> Mike Mike Mike... we've been through this.
> 
> If they did that - this thread would not have blown up and provided them with entertainment... they get TV for free and get to watch whatever they want... they have to get their entertainment from somewhere else. Sheesh... :sure:


Oh, I forgot the goal was to blow up this thread... 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

trdrjeff said:


> Hey! These mods do know what they're talking about...


Let's not go overboard now.... 

*(Yeah - they do!)*

.


----------



## D-Bamatech

damondlt said:


> For D* to sit on their A$$es and do nothing while E* blows D* away in HD is bothersome.
> D* must really think Sports is the answer.
> I see D* having a poor 2nd quarter and E* having a good one.


Ya think?

Im witnessing the greatest migration EVER to all different providers FROM D*
(commercial & residential in massive groves)

Check this out for the newest fight for Cust's.
*Today, Dish plans to give away 2,000 free yearlong subscriptions to DirecTV customers at 10 nationwide events.*
http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_14916175


----------



## leww37334

BudShark said:


> There's also another possibility... the additional time spent in 76 reduces the time testing at 103...
> 
> 1 week at 76 + 3 weeks to drift = 4 weeks.
> 3 weeks to drift + 1 week at 103 = 4 weeks.
> 
> Just sayin'... :grin:


I am starting to like your way of thinking......


----------



## Groundhog45

Tom Robertson said:


> We do it for the money, the fame, the women, and the great readers here.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I knew it.


----------



## PkDog

Maybe the same intern who put up the "200 HD channels in April" webpage put this new announcement up.


----------



## Hoosier205

D-Bamatech said:


> Ya think?
> 
> Im witnessing the greatest migration EVER to all different providers FROM D*
> (commercial & residential in massive groves)


I sincerely doubt you are witnessing much of anything. We are still waiting for your super secret insider information and news to come out...


----------



## Carl Spock

D-Bamatech said:


> Im witnessing the greatest migration EVER to all different providers FROM D*
> (commercial & residential in massive groves)
> 
> Check this out for the newest fight for Cust's.
> *Today, Dish plans to give away 2,000 free yearlong subscriptions to DirecTV customers at 10 nationwide events.*
> http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_14916175


"massive groves"?

D-Bamatech, I'm not sure I can see the forest for the trees. :grin:

Maybe this also demonstrates a difference between the two companies. Back when I was growing up, companies weren't overly concerned about having a great quarter. More important was having a great year, or even an even better company in five years. To me, Dish has always seemed more interested in the splash they can make in the short run than DirecTV.


----------



## D-Bamatech

Hoosier205 said:


> I sincerely doubt you are witnessing much of anything. We are still waiting for your super secret insider information and news to come out...


Just...
GO "play like" youre Booooby Knight.... Night.
:lol:


----------



## BudShark

D-Bamatech said:


> Ya think?
> 
> Im witnessing the greatest migration EVER to all different providers FROM D*
> (commercial & residential in massive groves)
> 
> Check this out for the newest fight for Cust's.
> *Today, Dish plans to give away 2,000 free yearlong subscriptions to DirecTV customers at 10 nationwide events.*
> http://www.dailybreeze.com/ci_14916175


If it requires giving free subscriptions to customers I'm not sure thats a sustainable business model. 

I think DirecTV has some things on the horizon that will continue to make them the clear, solid, trustworthy choice for HD.


----------



## michaelruggeri

I am very happy of course, but I am also a little worried. They say they will launch "over 30" new HD channels in May. At the end, they say that there will be new PPV channels. This could bring the total to "over 30."

And there is no AMC, BBCAmerica, HLN, IFC.

They did not say they would add anything past May except 3D channels. 

So what do you think? If they were planning to light up more channels in June, don't you think they would have mentioned them alongside of 3D?

Mike


----------



## sigma1914

:lol: Directv's response was great:


> In a statement, DirecTV responded to Dish's free offer: "Have times gotten so tough at Dish Network, that the only way they can convince DirecTV customers to switch to their sub-standard service is to give it away? That sounds like a sustainable marketing strategy."


----------



## Carl Spock

michaelruggeri said:


> If they were planning to light up more channels in June, don't you think they would have mentioned them alongside of 3D?


Why?

Ever hear of the showbiz mantra of leave your audience wanting more?


----------



## BudShark

michaelruggeri said:


> I am very happy of course, but I am also a little worried. They say they will launch "over 30" new HD channels in May. At the end, they say that there will be new PPV channels. This could bring the total to "over 30."
> 
> And there is no AMC, BBCAmerica, HLN, IFC.
> 
> They did not say they would add anything past May except 3D channels.
> 
> So what do you think? If they were planning to light up more channels in June, don't you think they would have mentioned them alongside of 3D?
> 
> Mike


Satracer already posted there are more - but they didn't add them to this list because of either contractual or timing reasons. But he assured the masses this isn't it for 2010.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

michaelruggeri said:


> I am very happy of course, but I am also a little worried. They say they will launch "over 30" new HD channels in May. At the end, they say that there will be new PPV channels. This could bring the total to "over 30."
> 
> And there is no AMC, BBCAmerica, HLN, IFC.
> 
> *They did not say they would add anything past May except 3D channels. *
> 
> So what do you think? If they were planning to light up more channels in June, don't you think they would have mentioned them alongside of 3D?
> 
> Mike


You might want to read the Channel Announcement thread - Satelliteracer confirmed there will be more.


----------



## Dave DFW

I'm going to miss checking this thread every day. It's become a way of life.


----------



## Sixto

Let's try to continue all channel discussion in the other thread ...http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952​
Would like to continue to just track/talk D12 here.

Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dave DFW said:


> I'm going to miss checking this thread every day. It's become a way of life.


Perhaps we can start an even earlier watch for D14/D15/D16, otherwise known as RB-1, RB-2, and RB-4(?) 

First post: anyone seen the contract yet? 
Second post: no! sky is falling...


----------



## P Smith

BudShark said:


> There's also another possibility... the additional time spent in 76 reduces the time testing at 103...
> 
> 1 week at 76 + 3 weeks to drift = 4 weeks.
> 3 weeks to drift + 1 week at 103 = 4 weeks.
> 
> Just sayin'... :grin:


Nay, doesn't work. Different location - different conditions - different tests. Nope.


----------



## ATARI

D14 is already behind schedule, there must be something wrong!

I'll never have 300 HD 3D channels, therefore I am unable to enjoy the 180 HD channels I already have!


----------



## bobnielsen

MicroBeta said:


> If it's the same then why not just drift and test like they did with D11? Why go through all the trouble of submitting a new request...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


If they did the testing at 103, there might be interference issues with SW1 or D10. D11 didn't have to worry about that.


----------



## syphix

Damn, I remember when all we had was ESPN HD, ESPN 2 HD, Discovery HD Theater, Showtime HD, HBO HD, and TNT HD! I'll never spend anytime outside this summer!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bobnielsen said:


> If they did the testing at 103, there might be interference issues with SW1 or D10. D11 didn't have to worry about that.


Well in that case, then they wouldn't be doing the testing at 103° anyway and BudShark would be wrong....I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## slimoli

Talking about 3D channels, how much more space does it require in the transponder ? How many 3D channels (with "full quality") per transponder ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> Damn, I remember when all we had was ESPN HD, ESPN 2 HD, Discovery HD Theater, Showtime HD, HBO HD, and TNT HD! I'll never spend anytime outside this summer!!


I'm still hoping for SatGo II-HD 

(No, I do not know if there is one planned. The "dish" is a major engineering nightmare.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

slimoli said:


> Talking about 3D channels, how much more space does it require in the transponder ? How many 3D channels (with "full quality") per transponder ?


Interesting question. I've been wondering that myself.

Does anyone know the approximate ratio between a 1080i channel and a 3D channel?

Or, is it too early to be that in depth on 3D?

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm still hoping for SatGo II-HD
> 
> (No, I do not know if there is one planned. The "dish" is a major engineering nightmare.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Eh... it could be fun to see three robotic arms trying to point to different sky locations :lol:


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> Interesting question. I've been wondering that myself.
> 
> Does anyone know the approximate ratio between a 1080i channel and a 3D channel?
> 
> Or, is it too early to be that in depth on 3D?
> 
> Mike


Bandwidth shouldn't be higher then for 1080p movies.


----------



## Piratefan98

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps we can start an even earlier watch for D14/D15/D16, otherwise known as RB-1, RB-2, and RB-4(?)


Good idea. And I think we can all agree that we don't want Boeing involved with any of the new ones. Fool us once, shame on us .... etc, etc.


----------



## LameLefty

Piratefan98 said:


> Good idea. And I think we can all agree that we don't want Boeing involved with any of the new ones. Fool us once, shame on us .... etc, etc.


Boeing has built 5 702-based satellites for Directv (SW1, SW2, D10 & 11, D12/RB-2A). I imagine they have an excellent chance for future contracts as well, even though SS/L has built several satellites for Directv also.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Let's say DIRECTV uses competition to pick the best solutions for their satellites.


----------



## Piratefan98

Agreed. I was just being sarcastic.

Actually, I thought it would be cool in this thread of 270 pages to begin a sentence with "And I think we can all agree .....".


----------



## Tom Robertson

Piratefan98 said:


> Agreed. I was just being sarcastic.
> 
> Actually, I thought it would be cool in this thread of 270 pages to begin a sentence with "And I think we can all agree .....".


Hokay, missed the smilie in the first post. 

And I think we can all agree on only one thing...nothing.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> You are not correct .. The new HD has everything to do with D12.


Ok then, I am sure I will be blasted for saying this, now I am worried because DirecTV going from 200 to 160 could indicate something about D12


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> OK then, I am sure I will be blasted for saying this, now I am worried because DirecTV going from 200 to 160 could indicate something about D12


Nope...no blast...

The 30 channels announced are the first barrage of new ones..the sat has the capacity for up to 200.

Satracer indicated there will be more....


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Ok then, I am sure I will be blasted for saying this, now I am worried because DirecTV going from 200 to 160 could indicate something about D12


Ok, blast. 

Looks to me like they are going from 130 to 160. As in step 1. 

Step 2: even more channels launched.

Then repeat


----------



## jefbal99

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, blast.
> 
> Looks to me like they are going from 130 to 160. As in step 1.
> 
> Step 2: even more channels launched.
> 
> Then repeat


I think you forgot to lather, then rinse before repeating


----------



## Hdhead

Since my poll was considered uncool I'll ask here. How long will it be before D12 starts to move to 103. I bet 1-2 weeks. What say you?

Today 
Tomorrow 
3-4 days 
5-7 days 
1 -2 weeks 
Longer than 2 weeks


----------



## sigma1914

Hdhead said:


> Since my poll was considered uncool I'll ask here. How long will it be before D12 starts to move to 103. I bet 1-2 weeks. What say you?
> 
> Today
> Tomorrow
> 3-4 days
> 5-7 days
> 1 -2 weeks
> Longer than 2 weeks


You forgot "Don't care."


----------



## Athlon646464

Hdhead said:


> Since my poll was considered uncool I'll ask here. How long will it be before D12 starts to move to 103. I bet 1-2 weeks. What say you?
> 
> Today
> Tomorrow
> 3-4 days
> 5-7 days
> 1 -2 weeks
> Longer than 2 weeks


1-2 weeks

BTW - Do 3D channels take up 2 transponders, one for each eye?


----------



## seern

sigma1914 said:


> You forgot "Don't care."


...or when D* darn well decides it wants too.


----------



## syphix

sigma1914 said:


> You forgot "Don't care."


Or "soon".


----------



## cebbigh

Hdhead said:


> Since my poll was considered uncool I'll ask here. How long will it be before D12 starts to move to 103. I bet 1-2 weeks. What say you?
> 
> Today
> Tomorrow
> 3-4 days
> 5-7 days
> 1 -2 weeks
> Longer than 2 weeks


Yesterday. We just haven't seen the TLE yet.


----------



## Hdhead

:icon_cry: Nobody likes my sandbox. :crying:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's not true. Sometimes rules are rules, and if you want to discuss it further, may I recommend use of this icon:


----------



## curt8403

Hdhead said:


> :icon_cry: Nobody likes my sandbox. :crying:


I like your comments, I just cannot respond to them in public.


----------



## cbayus

So what are the odds that we hit 300 pages before D12 starts it drift?

This isn't intended to start a flame war over the condition of the satellite, but an observation on the rapid pace of posting.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cbayus said:


> So what are the odds that we hit 300 pages before D12 starts it drift?
> 
> This isn't intended to start a flame war over the condition of the satellite, but an observation on the rapid pace of posting.


I'll take the under bet on that one.


----------



## Sixto

Can we please have all the channel discussion in the channel thread:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952​
We'll get back to D12 satellite talk here.

Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cbayus said:


> So what are the odds that we hit 300 pages before D12 starts it drift?
> 
> This isn't intended to start a flame war over the condition of the satellite, but an observation on the rapid pace of posting.


If you set your user options to 5 posts per page, this thread is already over 1350 pages... 

(Now I'll go back to 40 posts.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Button Pusher

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps we can start an even earlier watch for D14/D15/D16, otherwise known as RB-1, RB-2, and RB-4(?)
> 
> First post: anyone seen the contract yet?
> Second post: no! sky is falling...


Now that is funny I don't care who you are! But it is off topic! lol


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> ... I'm not sure what would really satisfy you at this point.


Why do you assume I was dissatisfied? I never was. I have been happy as a clam with DirecTV, D12 or not.


----------



## ATARI

Hdhead said:


> :icon_cry: Nobody likes my sandbox. :crying:


Need more Tonka trucks!!


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> Why do you assume I was dissatisfied? I never was. I have been happy as a clam with DirecTV, D12 or not.


Because you wanted news about D12 from an official source. Then once you got news that the plan was still on, you questioned why they would release the news when there were still steps to go.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding.


----------



## Doug Brott

cbayus said:


> So what are the odds that we hit 300 pages before D12 starts it drift?
> 
> This isn't intended to start a flame war over the condition of the satellite, but an observation on the rapid pace of posting.


pretty slim since it's only @ 170 now


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> We'll get back to D12 satellite talk here.
> 
> Thanks.


Thanks Sixto ..

If any of you seem to be missing posts, check here. I moved the "30 more HD" channels discussion to this location:


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> Because you wanted news about D12 from an official source. Then once you got news that the plan was still on, you questioned why they would release the news when there were still steps to go.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding.


I never wanted any news about D12, to me D12 is icing on the cake, but I did not need it to be happy. I just do not like the fact when people tried to say maybe D12 was not going as planned, they got blasted here.

Personally by reading the latest DirecTV announcement, I don't see a certain connection between the 30 new HDs and the D12 plan. Could they be connected? Sure, but DirecTV is not saying one must depend on the other.


----------



## curt8403

thanks Doug,

♪ I would sing a song of all the channels on D12 ♪ but it would be a very short song.
:hurah:


----------



## Hoosier205

jacmyoung said:


> I never wanted any news about D12, to me D12 is icing on the cake, but I did not need it to be happy. I just do not like the fact when people tried to say maybe D12 was not going as planned, they got blasted here.
> 
> Personally by reading the latest DirecTV announcement, I don't see a certain connection between the 30 new HDs and the D12 plan. Could they be connected? Sure, but DirecTV is not saying one must depend on the other.


...people were "blasted" because they were melting down over nothing. There was never any reason to believe that something was wrong with D12. Claims that there were problems were just ridiculous.

The new channels are dependent upon D12 and only D12. That much is clear and obvious in more ways than one.


----------



## jacmyoung

Hoosier205 said:


> ...The new channels are dependent upon D12 and only D12. That much is clear and obvious in more ways than one.


That much also seems clear that if D12 will remain at 76 for another 30-day testing, the new HDs in May cannot possibly depend on D12.


----------



## erosroadie

jacmyoung said:


> That much also seems clear that if D12 will remain at 76 for another 30-day testing, the new HDs in May cannot possibly depend on D12.


And the likelihood of that is...?


----------



## Hoosier205

jacmyoung said:


> That much also seems clear that if D12 will remain at 76 for another 30-day testing, the new HDs in May cannot possibly depend on D12.


Who said it would be staying put for 30 days? For all we know it could already be moving. They are now allowed to test at 76 for *up to* 30 days_ if necessary._ Even if they only needed one additional day for testing...you cannot apply for that. Someone explained how it works just the other day. These waivers are only granted for certain allotments of days. (30,60,90...I don't know exactly)

D12 may already be moving. It may not be. Either way, it can still be sitting at 76 today and move in time for it to be ready for use by the end of May. They have time and they obviously know that it will be available when they need it.


----------



## oldfantom

jacmyoung said:


> That much also seems clear that if D12 will remain at 76 for another 30-day testing, the new HDs in May cannot possibly depend on D12.


I think "depend on D12" might be a little loaded. If these channels show up on D11 or 10, it doesn't necessarily follow that the channel was not dependent upon d12. Remember all the speculation that bandwidth reserved for Sunday Ticket, the Masters et might be released once D12 was at a certain stage. Or may they will load the empty Spaceway rather than hold it empty in reserve. I, for one, am looking forward to the technical execution nearly as much as the actual channels in the initial wave.


----------



## Lord Vader

Hoosier205 said:


> For all we know it could already be moving.
> D12 may already be moving.


It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


----------



## jacmyoung

oldfantom said:


> I think "depend on D12" might be a little loaded. If these channels show up on D11 or 10, it doesn't necessarily follow that the channel was not dependent upon d12. Remember all the speculation that bandwidth reserved for Sunday Ticket, the Masters et might be released once D12 was at a certain stage. Or may they will load the empty Spaceway rather than hold it empty in reserve. I, for one, am looking forward to the technical execution nearly as much as the actual channels in the initial wave.


If so why wait till May? Besides, this news seems a response to DISH's news and claim. Had DISH not made that news, we probably would not have gotten this one. At a minimum we need to thank DISH for this one


----------



## Hoosier205

Lord Vader said:


> It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


Maybe it has a stealth mode and it will just appear after the drift.


----------



## curt8403

oldfantom said:


> I think "depend on D12" might be a little loaded. If these channels show up on D11 or 10, it doesn't necessarily follow that the channel was not dependent upon d12. Remember all the speculation that bandwidth reserved for Sunday Ticket, the Masters et might be released once D12 was at a certain stage. Or may they will load the empty Spaceway rather than hold it empty in reserve. I, for one, am looking forward to the technical execution nearly as much as the actual channels in the initial wave.


I think the Spaceway will be used to beam extra space to parts of the country that are running out of space.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If so why wait till May? Besides, this news seems a response to DISH's news and claim. Had DISH not made that news, we probably would not have gotten this one. At a minimum we need to thank DISH for this one


There's no need to re-bring the DISH announcement back into the D12 thread .. There are other threads for that discussion .. please use them.


----------



## Hdhead

Lord Vader said:


> It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


Vader, take it is from the source?


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


In other words: D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


----------



## jacmyoung

Hdhead said:


> Vader, take it is from the source?


I don't know how accurate are the numbers but:

1 wk + 3 wks drift + 1 wk =5 wks. Too much a nail biter.


----------



## curt8403

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know how accurate are the numbers but:
> 
> 1 wk + 3 wks drift + 1 wk =5 wks. Too much a nail biter.


it could also be 1 day + Burn that fuel baby (2 weeks drift) + 4 days


----------



## MartyS

radiomandc said:


> On DirecTv's website it shows WGN HD as available now. Is that accurate? Has anyone checked?
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels


I read the post. It shows WGN America HD coming in May. It's not in the list of the current HD stations on that same link.


----------



## oldfantom

jacmyoung said:


> If so why wait till May? ... Removed for Doug ...


I don't know. It is just a thought. Again, I think the final execution of the plan will be the only glimpse of the plan that we will get and will be interesting to see. The only definite statements I can make will occur after the fact.


----------



## Groundhog45

MartyS said:


> I read the post. It shows WGN America HD coming in May. It's not in the list of the current HD stations on that same link.


It was there earlier this morning when the list was first referenced. Later a correction was apparently made. Who says DirecTV doesn't read DBSTalk. :lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

MartyS said:


> I read the post. It shows WGN America HD coming in May. It's not in the list of the current HD stations on that same link.


I believe it was listed in both lists at first and then corrected a short time later.


----------



## cbayus

Tom Robertson said:


> If you set your user options to 5 posts per page, this thread is already over 1350 pages...
> 
> (Now I'll go back to 40 posts.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Point taken, but i was referring to using the forum default.

Just trying to add some semi on topic fun while we wait for the earth change its rotation or D12 to "kick the tires and light the fires".


----------



## ATARI

cbayus said:


> Point taken, but i was referring to using the forum default.
> 
> Just trying to add some semi on topic fun while we wait for the earth change its rotation or D12 to "kick the tires and light the fires".


Maybe use a more consistent data point -- like # of posts.

Will we make 7000 before drift?

I think yes.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> Maybe use a more consistent data point -- like # of posts.
> 
> Will we make 7000 before drift?
> 
> I think yes.


Without a doubt. I give it about 2 days tops. 

Mike


----------



## EaglePC

spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


----------



## beakor

curt8403 said:


> I think the Spaceway will be used to beam extra space to parts of the country that are running out of space.


or it could be used for in orbit spare parts!


----------



## LameLefty

EaglePC said:


> spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


103(s), 103(ca) or 103(cb)?


----------



## Hdhead

EaglePC said:


> spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


When the Eagle shows up you know we are close.


----------



## erosroadie

Lord Vader said:


> It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


Lord Vader:

Can you please command the Death Star to use its tractor beam and pull D12 to where it needs to be?

R2D2


----------



## dmurphy

EaglePC said:


> spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


Hey, don't you owe me $5???? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Athlon646464

LameLefty said:


> 103(s), 103(ca) or 103(cb)?


On (s) & (cb) for me.......


----------



## T-Hefner

I think 103(ca) is gonna be d12


----------



## cebbigh

EaglePC said:


> spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


If it was 103 ca, what did you see greater than 0? Was it a momentary spike on one or multiple transponders? How long did it last?

It can't be D12. Methinks EaglePC has tipped us off with the :grin::grin::grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If history is a teacher...then its not out of the realm of possibilities that further HD channel movement and/or channel relocation by sat is possbile once D12 is in place.


----------



## T-Hefner

Yeah, wouldnt it be something if they add all this HD among there other sats/spaceway and d12 was used for redundancy


nahhhh =)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

T-Hefner said:


> Yeah, wouldnt it be something if they add all this HD among there other sats/spaceway and d12 was used for redundancy
> 
> nahhhh =)


That's not gonna happen - if anything - the other way around.


----------



## slimoli

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's not gonna happen - if anything - the other way around.


I really hope it doesn't happen too. HD-LITE is the only reason why I would leave Directv, like I did in 2005.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> I really hope it doesn't happen too. HD-LITE is the only reason why I would leave Directv, like I did in 2005.


I can understand that. That's one of the things I regularly hear from my Dish friends irks them at this time.

With the bandwidth available in total, I don't think there's a need to squeeze things for some time to come. By then D14 will likely be on the radar.


----------



## GP245

T-Hefner said:


> I think 103(ca) is gonna be d12


Yes!


----------



## n3ntj

So, is D12 moving yet out of the 76 deg slot?


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Doug Brott said:


> In other words: D12 is fine and will be on service as planned


Gee, where have I heard that before?


----------



## damondlt

Just wanted to say thanks for the good News today.


----------



## MrDad0330

Santa is coming! I knew it...Thanks Directv


----------



## Sixto

Very interesting limbo state.

No TLE since 3am ET Monday.
No approval to continue testing at 76 after 4/19/2010 (awaiting extension).
No approval to Drift after 4/6/2010 (awaiting extension).

Really curious as to what's going on.

No reason for alarm, just very curious.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Very interesting limbo state.
> 
> No TLE since 3am ET Monday.
> No approval to continue testing at 76 after 4/19/2010 (awaiting extension).
> No approval to Drift after 4/6/2010 (awaiting extension).
> 
> Really curious as to what's going on.
> 
> No reason for alarm, just very curious.


Curioser and curiouser by the day. 

Perhaps we'll see that big leap all at once (soon)...where we learn D12 is moving, the docs all signed, and new TLE's show up again.

No worries.


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> Very interesting limbo state.
> 
> No TLE since 3am ET Monday.
> No approval to continue testing at 76 after 4/19/2010 (awaiting extension).
> No approval to Drift after 4/6/2010 (awaiting extension).
> 
> Really curious as to what's going on.
> 
> No reason for alarm, just very curious.


Testing complete maybe... One can hope.


----------



## kmax

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Curioser and curiouser by the day.
> 
> Perhaps we'll see that big leap all at once (soon)...where we learn D12 is moving, the docs all signed, and new TLE's show up again.
> 
> No worries.


I was wondering about this. But isn't the FCC updated daily so we would know right away when the drift was approved?

And without the STA granted for further testing, basically they can't do much with it right now (in regards to transponder testing)?

I can't remember if it was D10 or D11 where it was drifting, didn't get a TLE in quite some time, and "magically" it was close to its final position.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Very interesting limbo state.
> 
> No TLE since 3am ET Monday.
> No approval to continue testing at 76 after 4/19/2010 (awaiting extension).
> No approval to Drift after 4/6/2010 (awaiting extension).
> 
> Really curious as to what's going on.
> 
> No reason for alarm, just very curious.


Papers stuck on desks waiting for stamps/signatures, waiting to be scanned and posted on public web portals . . .


----------



## cebbigh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Curioser and curiouser by the day.
> 
> Perhaps we'll see that big leap all at once (soon)...where we learn D12 is moving, the docs all signed, and new TLE's show up again.
> 
> No worries.


:up:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:
 

> Papers stuck on desks waiting for stamps/signatures, waiting to be scanned and posted on public web portals . . .


We've certainly seen that happen before.


----------



## jacmyoung

Maybe the delay was caused by a demand from the FCC or some other satellite owners because of a very unusual situation which the FCC itself cannot disclose for legal/liability reasons. So it is out of DirecTV’s hand for now until the FCC works out a proper arrangement with whatever the parties involved.


----------



## RD in Fla

LameLefty said:


> Papers stuck on desks waiting for stamps/signatures, waiting to be scanned and posted on public web portals . . .


It is government, however, how much is really going on at the International Bureau of the FCC that prevents them from approving a request for STA in a timely fashion?


----------



## smiddy

Another day done, so I wonder, what is going on? Can we get an update from DreicTV? Anyone?


----------



## BudShark

smiddy said:


> Another day done, so I wonder, what is going on? Can we get an update from DreicTV? Anyone?


!rolling

Ummm.... No. :lol:


----------



## BudShark

RD in Fla said:


> It is government, however, how much is really going on at the International Bureau of the FCC that prevents them from approving a request for STA in a timely fashion?


Charlie Ergen paid more to delay than DirecTV paid to speed it up :shrug:


----------



## bobnielsen

BudShark said:


> Charlie Ergen paid more to delay than DirecTV paid to speed it up :shrug:


Or Charlie's alter ego, Spectrum Five.


----------



## cebbigh

bobnielsen said:


> Or Charlie's alter ego, Spectrum Five.


Spectrum? Didn't James Bond aka/Sean Connery take care of them years ago?


----------



## TBlazer07

EaglePC said:


> spotted signals greater then 0's on 103 something happening:grin::grin::grin


 A space fart.


----------



## EaglePC

wow theres 3 103's oh dear ,i was so excited,been away too long here (ca) all 0's (cb) and (s) high numbers

me a an **s 

sorry guys


----------



## Sixto

update #160 - similar.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> update #160 - similar.


At least now we know.


----------



## SWORDFISH

ATARI said:


> D14 is already behind schedule, there must be something wrong!


D14 is fine and will be on service as planned

SF


----------



## smiddy

I love this place!


----------



## davring

smiddy said:


> I love this place!


More entertainment than any premium package


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> update #160 - similar.


You know the old phrase. A watched pot never boils.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

cebbigh said:


> watched pot never boils.


Duuuuuuude.


----------



## syphix

slimoli said:


> Talking about 3D channels, how much more space does it require in the transponder ? How many 3D channels (with "full quality") per transponder ?


According to DirecTV, the 3D channels won't take more bandwidth than a regular HD channel:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/451205-DirecTV_To_Deliver_3DTV_With_Harmonic_Encoders.php


> DirecTV will use its existing HD encoders from Harmonic to launch three dedicated 3DTV channels in June, in a "frame-compatible" format that takes up the same amount of space as a regular HD stream.


----------



## cebbigh

So without a STA there hasn't been anything productive since the 19th? Can't test. Can't drift. Oh well.:shrug:


----------



## nd bronco fan

Its a Wednesday, keeping my fingers crossed we see some action today.


----------



## ejjames

I have a theory, that the current sat at 103 has a super-secret system that will bounce the signals from D12 at 76 degrees. That's why all the testing is being done at 76. 

Therefore, by my highly advanced mathematical-quantum equations that would take too long to explain, we should see 50 or 60 channels tomorrow morning.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ejjames said:


> I have a theory, that the current sat at 103 has a super-secret system that will bounce the signals from D12 at 76 degrees. That's why all the testing is being done at 76.
> 
> Therefore, by my highly advanced mathematical-quantum equations that would take too long to explain, we should see 50 or 60 channels tomorrow morning.


Well... Thursday does seem to be the new Wednesday for channel launching...


----------



## Mavrick

cebbigh said:


> You know the old phrase. A watched [strike]pot never boils[/strike] satellite never drifts.


There I fixed that for you.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... Thursday does seem to be the new Wednesday for channel launching...


Is that a hint, Tom, or are you just trying to get people stirred up?


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Is that a hint, Tom, or are you just trying to get people stirred up?


Just an observation that we've had several thursday launches. 

Now if I were to hint or stir (seems like I'm good at doing both at one time...) :lol:

Arbor day is a great week to celebrate...

(note, this is not as simple as some google searches might lead one to believe...)


----------



## slimoli

Tom Robertson said:


> Arbor day is a great week to celebrate...
> 
> (note, this is not as simple as some google searches might lead one to believe...)


Arbor day is too soon for the D12


----------



## bemenaker

Tom Robertson said:


> Arbor day is a great week to celebrate...


Which country? :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

bemenaker said:


> Which country? :lol:


You have the right idea--tho I'm thinking you might still be thinking too large...


----------



## Tom Robertson

slimoli said:


> Arbor day is too soon for the D12


Buzzz... you fell into the trap. Thanks for playing, would you like another?


----------



## dmurphy

Tom Robertson said:


> You have the right idea--tho I'm thinking you might still be thinking too large...


Each state celebrates Arbor Day differently.

Curious which STATE you meant ...

Could be Cali for El Segundo ....

Or Colorado for the uplink center ...

http://forestry.about.com/cs/urbanforestry/a/arbor_day_date.htm


----------



## Tom Robertson

dmurphy said:


> Each state celebrates Arbor Day differently.
> 
> Curious which STATE you meant ...
> 
> Could be Cali for El Segundo ....
> 
> Or Colorado for the uplink center ...


We have a winner of the first round...


----------



## Athlon646464

Some states celebrate for a week, others for just a day. Most celebrate on the last Friday of April........


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> We have a winner of the first round...


California's is March 7-14 (long time ago).

Colorado is third Friday in April (LAST Friday).

So, which would it be?? And what have we missed celebrating?

I hate games...


----------



## Athlon646464

Colorado does their thing on the third Friday in April.......

EDIT: Cyphix, you & I were typing at the same time........ you beat me by seconds


----------



## jilardi2

LameLefty said:


> Is that a hint, Tom, or are you just trying to get people stirred up?


sounds more like a promise :lol::lol:


----------



## Athlon646464

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=798725#post798725

:hurah:  :hurah:


----------



## bruinfever

Tom Robertson said:


> You have the right idea--tho I'm thinking you might still be thinking too large...


You mean which STATE....Arbor Day is different for each state...Most Arbor Days are in April though. The only Arbor Days that are in May are Alaska, Maine, Massachusetts, North Dakota, and Vermont....
BTW Tom, none of them have Arbor Days on Thursday.....:grin:


----------



## BudShark

Well the Arbor Day foundation wants you to celebrate April 30.... 

(Which by the way, coincides with Tom's home state...)


----------



## syphix

Tom's just fooling with us. He has no news....


....right?


----------



## BudShark

syphix said:
 

> Tom's just fooling with us. He has no news....
> 
> ....right?


He didn't say he had news... he said Arbor Day is a great week to celebrate.

A birthday?
An anniversary?
Festivus?

We don't know... but its a great week to celebrate. Of course, last week was a great week to celebrate... as is today! We are all here and apparently our lives are well enough to allow us this distraction of anticipating a big piece of machinery moving in the sky, with the end result being more HD TV programs.... thats a good thing to be distracting ourselves with compared to many of the alternative.

 So again... What is it about Arbor day week that Tom wants to celebrate? And more importantly... which week is it?


----------



## dmurphy

BudShark said:


> So again... What is it about Arbor day week that Tom wants to celebrate? And more importantly... which week is it?


I don't speak for Tom, but I think you should celebrate TREES!

The unspoken heroes of the environment ...


----------



## Lt Disher

Unfortunately, there is a state that celebrates as late as December, but I'm sure he wasn't meaning to imply that. (SC- first Friday in Dec.)


----------



## oldfantom

bruinfever said:


> You mean which STATE....Arbor Day is different for each state...Most Arbor Days are in April though. The only Arbor Days that are in May are Alaska, Maine, Massachusetts, North Dakota, and Vermont....
> BTW Tom, none of them have Arbor Days on Thursday.....:grin:


Of course he means Arbor Day in Springfield. *The smallest of trees embiggens us all.*


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I thought it was called Earth Day now. NBC-Universal is celebrating all week ("Green is Universal")


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> Of course he means Arbor Day in Springfield. *The smallest of trees embiggens us all.*


It's a perfectly cromulent word.


----------



## mobandit

BudShark said:


> Well the Arbor Day foundation wants you to celebrate April 30....
> 
> (Which by the way, coincides with Tom's home state...)


My birthday!!!!!!!


----------



## sigma1914

Coca Cola Kid said:


> I thought it was called Earth Day now. NBC-Universal is celebrating all week ("Green is Universal")


They're different...but kinda similar. 
Arbor Day is a holiday in which individuals and groups are encouraged to plant and care for trees. It originated in the United States in 1872.
Earth Day is a day designed to inspire awareness and appreciation for the Earth's environment. It was founded by U.S. Senator Gaylord Nelson as an environmental teach-in held on April 22, 1970.


----------



## wavemaster

So it's still sitting at 76 as planned?


----------



## Athlon646464

wavemaster said:


> So it's still sitting at 76 as planned?


No

It's at 76.02

See page 1 of this thread


----------



## Skyboss

wavemaster said:


> So it's still sitting at 76 as planned?


Of course it is. Once again, the "in the know" crowd is stiring the pot like a bunch of arrogant (insert explatives). :nono:


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> Of course it is. Once again, the "in the know" crowd is stiring the pot like a bunch of arrogant (insert explatives). :nono:


Need some cheese with the whine? :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Arbor day is a great week to celebrate...


You're building an arbor?


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> Need some cheese with the whine? :lol:


No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


----------



## sigma1914

Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


Bite the hand that feeds you...real mature. 

You can ignore them & move along.


----------



## Kentstater

Doug Brott said:


> You're building *an arbor*?


No *Yipsilanti*


----------



## nd bronco fan

Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


You can chose to be frustrated by some people dropping hints or you can take this thread for what it is, a location to go to get the latest updates for D12. I come to this thread for that info and any hints that can be dropped. I would rather have it this way than nothing or the alternative of this thread being who is the bigger Star Trek geek or worthless video links of nothing related to the threads intended topic.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> Need some cheese with the whine? :lol:





Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


These posts are starting to make me hungry. :lol:


----------



## Hoosier205

Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


Pie sounds good actually. Yum!


----------



## Athlon646464

Doug Brott said:


> You're building an arbor?


Maybe like a Babel Tower - high enough where he can see D12 close up and report back.......


----------



## ccsoftball7

Doug Brott said:


> You're building an arbor?


No, it's the day when all the ships come sailing into the arbor...wow, some people don't know much.

BTW, that's from a Charlie Brown episode for those unaware.


----------



## Athlon646464

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Everybody-Likes-Pie/183218751888

:icon_peac


----------



## Tom Robertson

Skyboss said:


> Of course it is. Once again, the "in the know" crowd is stiring the pot like a bunch of arrogant (insert explatives). :nono:


Or maybe we're having fun. You can chuse* fun or whine. Fun is obvious more enjoyable for most people... 

Cheers,
Tom

*Chuse is a legitmate spelling and is found in the US Constitution. And fun.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


Are you serving pie? I like French Silk best. Cheery Cherry is also fun. 

Oh, and how are we supposed to tell people tidbits if we can't talk...

Hey wait... I'm a member too. I get to talk.

<moderator note> Play nice. Works much better...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Mmmm . . .
π










:lol:


----------



## JeffBowser

HA! That's funny :lol:



LameLefty said:


> Mmmm . . .
> π
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol:


----------



## spartanstew

Kentstater said:


> No *Yipsilanti*


Is that near Ypsilanti?



Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

I prefer Ardor Days.


----------



## Athlon646464

LameLefty - It does kinda look like a big pie plate.......

:glasses:


----------



## LameLefty

Athlon646464 said:


> LameLefty - It does kinda look like a big pie plate.......
> 
> :glasses:


It's a Pi Hole


----------



## Athlon646464

LameLefty said:


> It's a Pi Hole


!rolling

There's no way we're going to shut that thing!!!! :lol:


----------



## cebbigh

Mavrick said:


> There I fixed that for you.


----------



## Big Dave 09

D12?? Any info? any TLE's?....still no movement? thanks for a quick summary...


----------



## Sixto

Big Dave 09 said:


> D12?? Any info? any TLE's?....still no movement? thanks for a quick summary...


Same.


----------



## Big Dave 09

Sixto said:


> Same.


Thanks....sixto--is it odd to have such a delay in information?


----------



## JLucPicard

Big Dave 09 said:


> D12?? Any info? any TLE's?....still no movement? thanks for a quick summary...


You can always get a quick summary in Post #1.


----------



## inkahauts

Skyboss said:


> No, but the "in the know" children should shut their pie holes for a change.


Do you have information that contradicts what the "in the know" people have said? If so, please share it with us, othersiwse...


----------



## cebbigh

Captain Sixto's log:

No wind for weeks. The ship is adrift at sea. Sails slack. Stuck in the doldrums. Food and water in short supply and the crew is plotting mutiny.


----------



## Jeremy W

Big Dave 09 said:


> Thanks....sixto--is it odd to have such a delay in information?


A delay in information? There is no delay. Nothing has happened yet.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> A delay in information? There is no delay. Nothing has happened yet.


I seem to remember there was a gap in TLEs for D10. Then it was there. 

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> I seem to remember there was a gap in TLEs for D10. Then it was there.


Sure. Doesn't change the fact that there is no delay or gap with D12 right now. We just received a new TLE today.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jeremy W said:


> Sure. Doesn't change the fact that there is no delay or gap with D12 right now. We just received a new TLE today.


Just makin' conversation. 

Mike


----------



## wmb

Jeremy W said:


> A delay in information? There is no delay. Nothing has happened yet.


Not to beat a dead horse, but I think its stuck in the doldrums.


----------



## mhayes70

Jeremy W said:


> Sure. Doesn't change the fact that there is no delay or gap with D12 right now. We just received a new TLE today.


I think there was yesterday and I think that is why it was brought up.


----------



## cebbigh

mhayes70 said:


> I think there was yesterday and I think that is why it was brought up.


Until the STA to move is approved, I don't think there's much reason to expect any significant TLE changes.


----------



## Christopher Gould

ejjames said:


> I have a theory, that the current sat at 103 has a super-secret system that will bounce the signals from D12 at 76 degrees. That's why all the testing is being done at 76.
> 
> Therefore, by my highly advanced mathematical-quantum equations that would take too long to explain, we should see 50 or 60 channels tomorrow morning.


i know u were kidding.

but the spaceways did have a intersatellite connects when they were first built for internet traffic, but i believe they were remove when there mission changed to tv.


----------



## Sixto

Update #161 - similar.


----------



## jjeeffff

Sixto, A question from a novice on this subject. Are the 30 new channels that Directv announced this week for May going to come from the new sat or directv 10 or 11? If they are going to come from the new sat, how is the new sat going to be ready to go by the end of May when is is still currently testing at 76?


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

I think a lot of people are wondering this one.^^^^^


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think it doesn't matter so much as the expectation that there will be new channels in May. DIRECTV wouldn't have put out that press release if they didn't think they could deliver.


----------



## Sixto

jjeeffff said:


> Sixto, A question from a novice on this subject. Are the 30 new channels that Directv announced this week for May going to come from the new sat or directv 10 or 11? If they are going to come from the new sat, how is the new sat going to be ready to go by the end of May when is is still currently testing at 76?


All assumed to be coming from D12.

Need 3 week Drift and some testing at 103°. Unless they speed up the Drift and/or minimize testing at 103°.


----------



## syphix

I have a feeling that either (a) they won't get the new HD's on in May, or (b) they'll be turned on at the END of May, thus fulfilling the "promise of May". Now that the announcement of new HD's is out, they'd better start moving D12 to 103...


----------



## BudShark

syphix said:


> I have a feeling that either (a) they won't get the new HD's on in May, or (b) they'll be turned on at the END of May, thus fulfilling the "promise of May". Now that the announcement of new HD's is out, they'd better start moving D12 to 103...


This may be one of those cases where we know too much.

The consumer should be looking at the press release (coming in May) and be assured that it will happen in May.

Where it comes from, what D12s status is, shouldn't be of concern. When they turn on the HD channels - we should expect same quality. If not, we have a right to complain.

So - with all that said - as long as we get new HD in May, why do we care where it comes from?

In fact - if they turn on new HD in May... AND D12 has nothing to do with it... AND quality remains in tact... isn't that actually BETTER than D12 moving today? Wouldn't that mean there is more capacity than expected?

See... you can always find the sunny side of things!


----------



## jjeeffff

BudShark said:


> This may be one of those cases where we know too much.
> 
> The consumer should be looking at the press release (coming in May) and be assured that it will happen in May.
> 
> Where it comes from, what D12s status is, shouldn't be of concern. When they turn on the HD channels - we should expect same quality. If not, we have a right to complain.
> 
> So - with all that said - as long as we get new HD in May, why do we care where it comes from?
> 
> In fact - if they turn on new HD in May... AND D12 has nothing to do with it... AND quality remains in tact... isn't that actually BETTER than D12 moving today? Wouldn't that mean there is more capacity than expected?
> 
> See... you can always find the sunny side of things!


Good point!


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> All assumed to be coming from D12.
> 
> Need 3 week Drift and some testing at 103°. Unless they speed up the Drift and/or minimize testing at 103°.


Is it correct to assume that for the time being everything is on hold pending STA authorization?


----------



## Sixto

cebbigh said:


> Is it correct to assume that for the time being everything is on hold pending STA authorization?


Unless there's some informal allowance for testing to continue since an extension request was submitted. Or maybe it's approved and just not public for some reason. All behind the curtain.


----------



## ptuck874

BudShark said:


> See... you can always find the sunny side of things!


tis true, and that would be great very cool if that what it is


----------



## cebbigh

I think end of May is likely. D11 went live on July 31 and there are 31 days in May. If it happens sooner GREAT. But at least now there is a press release stating there will be new channels other than PPV. That is reassuring.


----------



## GoPokes43

I think you guys are forgetting a very important part of the press release: 
"These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160."

Accordingly, if D12 is not ready, I would guess that there is a slot or two available on the existing satellites that can be used to add one or two channels so that they "begin rolling out in May." Even if D12 is in use, it doesn't appear that all 30 will be in place until maybe August. Some of the reason would be the terms of the contracts D* has with the channel providers.

So, everyone may want to lower your expectations, because it is pretty clear that there will not be an additional 30 channels in May, only some lesser amount.


----------



## ATARI

GoPokes43 said:


> I think you guys are forgetting a very important part of the press release:
> "These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160."
> 
> Accordingly, if D12 is not ready, I would guess that there is a slot or two available on the existing satellites that can be used to add one or two channels so that they "begin rolling out in May." Even if D12 is in use, it doesn't appear that all 30 will be in place until maybe August. Some of the reason would be the terms of the contracts D* has with the channel providers.
> 
> So, everyone may want to lower your expectations, because it is pretty clear that there will not be an additional 30 channels in May, only some lesser amount.


That's how I read it as well.

We'll get a few in May, then a few more in June, etc.


----------



## alv

Isn't there space from the channels in the 70's that recently vanished?


----------



## tkrandall

Those were located at 110w and 119w I don't see DirecTV adding any HD channels back at those slots, at least not for core (non ethnic) programming.


----------



## bobnielsen

alv said:


> Isn't there space from the channels in the 70's that recently vanished?


Yes, but if the new channels go there a lot of people with Slimline 3 dishes will be quite disappointed.


----------



## Rikinky

Sixto said:


> Unless there's some informal allowance for testing to continue since an extension request was submitted. Or maybe it's approved and just not public for some reason. All behind the curtain.


Stay Where You are! Come No Closer!!!


----------



## georule

That press release for the new channels says "begin launching" in May.

As long as they've added 1 new channel by May 31st they've met the promise of that PR.

Is that what I expect them to do? No --I'm just pointing out they've left themselves some flexibility there.

GolTV HD, on that list, doesn't even launch as a channel until 8/1/2010. I think a few others have not launched yet either. I don't mean launched on DirecTV --I mean haven't begun broadcasting *anywhere*.


----------



## Lt Disher

BudShark said:


> ... what D12s status is, shouldn't be of concern.


And yet it is. Just look at the length and number of comments in this thread.


----------



## Hoosier205

Lt Disher said:


> And yet it is.


No it isn't.


----------



## Athlon646464

Lt Disher said:


> And yet it is. Just look at the length and number of comments in this thread.


:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Hoosier205 said:


> No it isn't.


I think you are hilarious. We were told *by DirecTV*, when it announced the upcoming launch of D12, how important this satellite was to its future HD plans. We were bombarded with DirecTV marketing telling us they now had capacity (due to D12) *for up to 200 HD channels*. We were given access to a live video feed of the launch. We've got this forum here, one of the most popular, if not the most popular in terms of views and postings, in the history of DBSTalk, with almost daily updates on the status of D12. And now you tell us the status of D12 is of *no concern to us*?

Sure it's great new HD programming is coming, starting in May. But whether that programming is coming from D12 or from existing satellites is very important. It will determine how quickly we can expect these new channels to be delivered. It will determine whether some additional compression will be required in their delivery. It will determine whether they will be the first batch of new channels, or the last we're going to see for a while.

We've also been told DirecTV's current capacity for HD is almost completely full (I've seen the post with the transponder allocations). If the new channels announced (beginning in May) are coming from existing satellites and not from D12, either we were misinformed about the current HD channel capacity situation, or many of these new channels could have been provided to us some time ago, or there's some third option taking place here I'd like to know about, such as HD Lite.

I don't know the answer to whether the new channels (beginning in May) are from D12 or not, and I'm glad that you and some others in this forum are apparently completely unconcerned whether they are or not. But I don't think people who *are* concerned about that question should be casually dismissed as crazy loonies. Come on, this is a forum for geeky guys who obviously are very interested in pretty detailed aspects about issues which most people find unimportant. Where and how DirecTV suddenly found capacity for 30 more HD channels is the very sort of stuff we come to this website to learn about and discuss.


----------



## LameLefty

whatliesbeyond said:


> Where and how DirecTV suddenly found capacity for 30 more HD channels is the very sort of stuff we come to this website to learn about and discuss.


There's nothing at all "sudden" about their announcement. Directv has been planning for D10/11/12 for a very long time.


----------



## markrubi

:beatdeadhorse: Can't we all just sit back and wait?

From a Mod signature... . D12, she be fine.

One who has been inside the walls of Directv and surely has a good source for info. One more post closer to 7k...


----------



## CorpITGuy

Whatliesbeyond, DirecTV has had capacity for a while - part-time sports channels like NFL-ST as well as PPV. I'm sure they don't mind occupying those slots with full-time new HD once they know for absolutely sure that D12 will be there. What they didn't want to do was announce too early, use those slots and then have something happen to D12 and need them later.

Hope this helps with the "where is the space coming from" confusion.


----------



## Athlon646464

whatliesbeyond said:


> ... ... ... found capacity for 30 more HD channels is the very sort of stuff we come to this website to learn about and discuss.


And it has been ad nauseam here. If you combine what the mods here can tell us and have (and they are a trusted lot), along with D*'s announcement, and that we've known for a long time D12 was part of this plan, then the picture painted is a positive one and not a negative one. They would not have made the announcement if D12 was space junk, or crippled in some way to keep that from happening.

The only thing we don't know (aside from ALL the details which we'll never know), is *exactly* when.

We know D12 is OK, we know there will be new channels in May, and we know they will *soon* have capacity for 200 channels (likely in May).


----------



## Rikinky

The definition of "Soon" = :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Hoosier205

whatliesbeyond said:


> I think you are hilarious. We were told *by DirecTV*, when it announced the upcoming launch of D12, how important this satellite was to its future HD plans. We were bombarded with DirecTV marketing telling us they now had capacity (due to D12) *for up to 200 HD channels*. We were given access to a live video feed of the launch. We've got this forum here, one of the most popular, if not the most popular in terms of views and postings, in the history of DBSTalk, with almost daily updates on the status of D12. And now you tell us the status of D12 is of *no concern to us*?
> 
> Sure it's great new HD programming is coming, starting in May. But whether that programming is coming from D12 or from existing satellites is very important. It will determine how quickly we can expect these new channels to be delivered. It will determine whether some additional compression will be required in their delivery. It will determine whether they will be the first batch of new channels, or the last we're going to see for a while.
> 
> We've also been told DirecTV's current capacity for HD is almost completely full (I've seen the post with the transponder allocations). If the new channels announced (beginning in May) are coming from existing satellites and not from D12, either we were misinformed about the current HD channel capacity situation, or many of these new channels could have been provided to us some time ago, or there's some third option taking place here I'd like to know about, such as HD Lite.
> 
> I don't know the answer to whether the new channels (beginning in May) are from D12 or not, and I'm glad that you and some others in this forum are apparently completely unconcerned whether they are or not. But I don't think people who *are* concerned about that question should be casually dismissed as crazy loonies. Come on, this is a forum for geeky guys who obviously are very interested in pretty detailed aspects about issues which most people find unimportant. Where and how DirecTV suddenly found capacity for 30 more HD channels is the very sort of stuff we come to this website to learn about and discuss.


D12 is fine. There is absolutely no cause for concern. D12 will available for use in May when needed.

The new HD channels are dependent upon D12. The new HD channels will be coming from D12. DirecTV did not "suddenly" find capacity for 30 more HD channels. They launched a satellite.

DirecTV does not use HD-Lite.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> D12 is fine. There is absolutely no cause for concern. D12 will available for use in May when needed.
> 
> The new HD channels are dependent upon D12. The new HD channels will be coming from D12. DirecTV did not "suddenly" find capacity for 20 more HD channels. The launched a satellite.
> 
> DirecTV does not use HD-Lite.


Great summation.

That information seemed *very clear *after the recent update announcement on the new channels, but perhaps a few remaining folks could use an updated pair of glasses. :lol:

As you said - its all good.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

whatliesbeyond said:


> I think you are hilarious. We were told *by DirecTV*, when it announced the upcoming launch of D12, how important this satellite was to its future HD plans. We were bombarded with DirecTV marketing telling us they now had capacity (due to D12) *for up to 200 HD channels*. We were given access to a live video feed of the launch. We've got this forum here, one of the most popular, if not the most popular in terms of views and postings, in the history of DBSTalk, with almost daily updates on the status of D12. And now you tell us the status of D12 is of *no concern to us*?
> 
> Sure it's great new HD programming is coming, starting in May. But whether that programming is coming from D12 or from existing satellites is very important. It will determine how quickly we can expect these new channels to be delivered. It will determine whether some additional compression will be required in their delivery. It will determine whether they will be the first batch of new channels, or the last we're going to see for a while.
> 
> We've also been told DirecTV's current capacity for HD is almost completely full (I've seen the post with the transponder allocations). If the new channels announced (beginning in May) are coming from existing satellites and not from D12, either we were misinformed about the current HD channel capacity situation, or many of these new channels could have been provided to us some time ago, or there's some third option taking place here I'd like to know about, such as HD Lite.
> 
> I don't know the answer to whether the new channels (beginning in May) are from D12 or not, and I'm glad that you and some others in this forum are apparently completely unconcerned whether they are or not. But I don't think people who *are* concerned about that question should be casually dismissed as crazy loonies. Come on, this is a forum for geeky guys who obviously are very interested in pretty detailed aspects about issues which most people find unimportant. Where and how DirecTV suddenly found capacity for 30 more HD channels is the very sort of stuff we come to this website to learn about and discuss.


----------



## oldfantom

SPACEMAKER said:


>


Let me see if we can capture about 80% of the D* forum threads....

(1) They have all kinds of space they are not releasing or using for the most useless channel(s) ever
(2) The sky is falling
(3) The sky is not falling, you are paranoid
(4) CSRs.....
(5)Swanni said, Swanni is a dope
(6) HD Lite
(7) I am dropping the service and needed all of America to know why
(8) Lease agreements
(9) Hardware blows
(10) Useless summary posts


----------



## SPACEMAKER

oldfantom said:


> Let me see if we can capture about 80% of the D* forum threads....
> 
> (1) They have all kinds of space they are not releasing or using for the most useless channel(s) ever
> (2) The sky is falling
> (3) The sky is not falling, you are paranoid
> (4) CSRs.....
> (5)Swanni said, Swanni is a dope
> (6) HD Lite
> (7) I am dropping the service and needed all of America to know why
> (8) Lease agreements
> (9) Hardware blows
> (10) Useless summary posts


:lol: I think that about covers it.

I guess I was naive to assume that we were done with all of the D12 paranoia.


----------



## whatliesbeyond

Hoosier205 said:


> D12 is fine. There is absolutely no cause for concern. D12 will available for use in May when needed.
> 
> The new HD channels are dependent upon D12. The new HD channels will be coming from D12. DirecTV did not "suddenly" find capacity for 30 more HD channels. They launched a satellite.
> 
> DirecTV does not use HD-Lite.


Good to hear. I guess I was confused by the statements made yesterday and today in this forum, by several heavyweights, that we didn't yet have a definitive answer to the question about where the capacity for the new channels was coming from (though we could *assume* they were from D12), and that we didn't need to really know or care about the answer. Gee, what an idiot I am for taking them at their word and thinking this meant we didn't yet really know the answer to the question. Gee, what an idiot I am for wanting to know more than just what DirecTV tells me in their press releases.

I'm outta here. Life's too short to be ridiculed for asking for clarification about something a lot of people are concerned about. And too short for having to look at pictures with profanities in the title. As a parting word, I suggest the moderators give some thought to how some people treat others in this forum, and perhaps at this whole site. Pretty soon it might turn into a place for just the few of you who share the same views about everything related to DirecTV.


----------



## Hoosier205

whatliesbeyond said:


> Good to hear. I guess I was confused by the statements made yesterday and today in this forum, by several heavyweights, that we didn't yet have a definitive answer to the question about where the capacity for the new channels was coming from (though we could *assume* they were from D12), and that we didn't need to really know or care about the answer. Gee, what an idiot I am for taking them at their word and thinking this meant we didn't yet really know the answer to the question. Gee, what an idiot I am for wanting to know more than just what DirecTV tells me in their press releases.
> 
> I'm outta here. Life's too short to be ridiculed for asking for clarification about something a lot of people are concerned about. And too short for having to look at pictures with profanities in the title. As a parting word, I suggest the moderators give some thought to how some people treat others in this forum, and perhaps at this whole site. Pretty soon it might turn into a place for just the few of you who share the same views about everything related to DirecTV.


Take care. Safe journeys.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

whatliesbeyond said:


> Good to hear. I guess I was confused by the statements made yesterday and today in this forum, by several heavyweights, that we didn't yet have a definitive answer to the question about where the capacity for the new channels was coming from (though we could *assume* they were from D12), and that we didn't need to really know or care about the answer. Gee, what an idiot I am for taking them at their word and thinking this meant we didn't yet really know the answer to the question. Gee, what an idiot I am for wanting to know more than just what DirecTV tells me in their press releases.
> 
> I'm outta here. Life's too short to be ridiculed for asking for clarification about something a lot of people are concerned about. And too short for having to look at pictures with profanities in the title. As a parting word, I suggest the moderators give some thought to how some people treat others in this forum, and perhaps at this whole site. Pretty soon it might turn into a place for just the few of you who share the same views about everything related to DirecTV.


:nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

oldfantom said:


> Let me see if we can capture about 80% of the D* forum threads....
> 
> (1) They have all kinds of space they are not releasing or using for the most useless channel(s) ever
> ...
> (10) Useless summary posts


(11) :backtotop


----------



## ATARI

(12) movie/tv quotes


----------



## Doug Brott

whatliesbeyond said:


> Good to hear. I guess I was confused by the statements made yesterday and today in this forum, by several heavyweights, that we didn't yet have a definitive answer to the question about where the capacity for the new channels was coming from (though we could *assume* they were from D12), and that we didn't need to really know or care about the answer. Gee, what an idiot I am for taking them at their word and thinking this meant we didn't yet really know the answer to the question. Gee, what an idiot I am for wanting to know more than just what DirecTV tells me in their press releases.
> 
> I'm outta here. Life's too short to be ridiculed for asking for clarification about something a lot of people are concerned about. And too short for having to look at pictures with profanities in the title. As a parting word, I suggest the moderators give some thought to how some people treat others in this forum, and perhaps at this whole site. Pretty soon it might turn into a place for just the few of you who share the same views about everything related to DirecTV.


I'm kinda confused by your comments here .. We may be able to probe the answer at some point, but DIRECTV may even shuffle things around after that. The key is that HD comes from 99° and 103° .. DIRECTV has multiple satellites parked at these locations and their Engineering teams make whatever decisions need to be made to determine which particular transponder the channels come from. Even then it may change as the conditions change. The constant is having both 99° and 103° available to you (Ka band).

In laymans terms .. yes all of the new HD will go up on D12 when it's ready. But beyond that and from a technical standpoint I think all anyone can say is :shrug: .. That's the kind of information that DIRECTV just doesn't share.


----------



## evan_s

We don't know for sure where these channels will come from or when exactly they will be turned on.

We do know that D12 has been launched and at some point will be at 103 to start broadcasting more Conus TPs for national channels. This clearly hasn't been as quick as some posters here would like it to be. D12 may be in place quickly enough for them to get at least 1 of the new channels up by the end of May and it may not be.

There are other possible ways they could get the channels up there with out having to use HD-Lite. 110/119 could be used but I see as very unlikely due to the heavy deployment of the SL3's that wouldn't be able to receive them. They had 2 extra TPs running on D10 before D11 launched and I presume they could do that again on D10 and probably on D11. This would be 20 channels using their normal 5 channels per TP. This could be used to get some channels up quickly before d12 got to 103 and working with out reducing quality.

We do know the long term answer is that D12 will be providing 16 additional TPs for Conus channels allowing 80 more channels. I wouldn't be too surprised to see d10 go back up to 16 tp and stay there long term once some of it's spots have been moved to d12 and D12's conus tp's have been filled up. It just makes sense long term to balance the spots between the 2 sats capable of providing them and to use the extra power budget to provide the additional Conus tps. Obviously they are going to want to avoid using the spots D10 that have the alignment issue but there is no reason to avoid using the others.


----------



## Athlon646464

*whatliesbeyond*

I'm certainly not an apologist for anyone here - however.........

Some of the responses to your post #6925 may have been because of the tone you took in your own first sentence - it's the same thing you are upset about, IMHO.

I'm not bothered by any tone (including yours) in the last hundred or so posts here. I think it's all part of this thread's entertainment value. It's something to do while we sit and wait for D12 to begin drifting.

Sorry to see you go.....


----------



## GoPokes43

Doug Brott said:


> In laymans terms .. yes all of the new HD will go up on D12 when it's ready.


I don't think we know that. Some of the new HD could very well go on an open slot on an existing satellite.

We also know that the existing satellites don't have enough open space for an additional 30 HD channels. Accordingly, to meet D*'s promise of 30 new HD channels within a few months after May, D12 needs to be operational by August roughly.

It may be that D12 is operational in May though. But, we also know that D* will not light it up in full capacity at that time. We only know that some of it will be in use (by deduction that it is necessary for D* to be able to meet its promise), again, by August roughly.


----------



## Lt Disher

GoPokes43 said:


> I But, we also know that D* will not light it up in full capacity at that time.


I am wondering where we know this from. I have seen nothing that says that it won't be at full capacity when it lights up.


----------



## GP245

Yes, Direct's press release talks about some new channels will first be added and subsequently, there will be additional ones.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lt Disher said:


> I am wondering where we know this from. I have seen nothing that says that it won't be at full capacity when it lights up.


We do know that as of now there are 30 channels slated for May. Now unless there's a lot more coming in May, or the capacity of D12 is only 30 channels, I think we can safely say it won't be a full capacity. 

Mike


----------



## Lt Disher

MicroBeta said:


> We do know that as of now there are 30 channels slated for May. Now unless there's a lot more coming in May, or the capacity of D12 is only 30 channels, I think we can safely say it won't be a full capacity.
> 
> Mike


Sorry, I misunderstood. I took the post to mean the the satellite would be impaired in some way and thus not have its full capacity available. Now I understand what was meant.


----------



## wavemaster

Still sitting today at 76 I see. As planned right?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

wavemaster said:


> Still sitting today at 76 I see. As planned right?


Correct.

Mike


----------



## mp12point7

To Lt Disher and all who wonder: As DirecTV has lit up each new satellite, new services have been started just a few channels at a time. Many months seem to have passed before there was any talk of capacity problems following each new satellite's arrival.


----------



## GoPokes43

MicroBeta said:


> We do know that as of now there are 30 channels slated for May. Now unless there's a lot more coming in May, or the capacity of D12 is only 30 channels, I think we can safely say it won't be a full capacity.
> 
> Mike


Actually, what I meant is that not all 30 new HD channels will light up on D12 in May. We only know that there are 30 HD channels slated to come on within a few months after May and that they will begin showing up in May (because that's what D*'s press release says and because we know that some of those channels listed are not slated to begin broadcasting in HD until sometime after May). Again, we only know that the first of the 30 new HD channels will show up in May (but we don't know if the first channel or two will come from extra space on an existing bird or from D12).

(To LT Disher: I suppose D12 could be filled with non-HD programming when it lights up such that it would be at full capacity and then slowly replace that programming with HD when it comes online. But, that just doesn't make much sense.)


----------



## Doug Brott

GoPokes43 said:


> I don't think we know that. Some of the new HD could very well go on an open slot on an existing satellite.


I think you took my comments too literally .. I didn't say in "tech geeks" terms .. The bottom line is D12 needs to be in position and working (as we expect).



> We also know that the existing satellites don't have enough open space for an additional 30 HD channels. Accordingly, to meet D*'s promise of 30 new HD channels within a few months after May, D12 needs to be operational by August roughly.
> 
> It may be that D12 is operational in May though. But, we also know that D* will not light it up in full capacity at that time. We only know that some of it will be in use (by deduction that it is necessary for D* to be able to meet its promise), again, by August roughly.


Why August? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're gonna see most of what was announced and maybe even some of what wasn't announced in May .. There really isn't a compelling reason to hold out unless DIRECTV wants to Market it as multiple HD roll outs. Capacity will be available once D12 lands in the right spot.


----------



## loudo

syphix said:


> I have a feeling that either (a) they won't get the new HD's on in May, or (b) they'll be turned on at the END of May, thus fulfilling the "promise of May". Now that the announcement of new HD's is out, they'd better start moving D12 to 103...


I don't see the word "Promise" anywhere in the press release. It looks more like it is an announcement of their plans to begin rolling them out in May.


----------



## oldfantom

Doug Brott said:


> Why August? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're gonna see most of what was announced and maybe even some of what wasn't announced in May .. There really isn't a compelling reason to hold out unless DIRECTV wants to Market it as multiple HD roll outs. Capacity will be available once D12 lands in the right spot.


It took me a minute. August = start of football. The OP is saying that the satellite has to be online for Sunday DT. Theory being that they can add stuff now using DT space.

Not my theory. My interpretation of OP's theory


----------



## wavemaster

How far will the HD count have to surpass the SD count in order to drop the HD service as an extra fee?


----------



## oldfantom

wavemaster said:


> How far will the HD count have to surpass the SD count in order to drop the HD service as an extra fee?


Have you ever seen a company give up on a fee? If they do drop that fee, they will add one for something else.


----------



## nd bronco fan

We've got filings!!!

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0


----------



## LameLefty

nd bronco fan said:


> We've got filings!!!
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0


Nothing exciting. Those are grants of the earth station STA extension requests for continued testing at 76ºW.


----------



## nd bronco fan

LameLefty said:


> Nothing exciting. Those are grants of the earth station STA extension requests for continued testing at 76ºW.


Yeah I know.......thought I would try to make it seem more interesting than it was.


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> Nothing exciting. Those are grants of the earth station STA extension requests for continued testing at 76ºW.


More testing? So, D12 is broke? Great!


----------



## Jeremy W

oldfantom said:


> The OP is saying that the satellite has to be online for Sunday DT. Theory being that they can add stuff now using DT space.


What is Sunday DT?


----------



## SPACEMAKER

nd bronco fan said:


> Yeah I know.......thought I would try to make it seem more interesting than it was.


:lol:
Nothing wrong with that!


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Jeremy W said:


> What is Sunday DT?


For some it's the detox from too much drinking on Friday and Saturday.


----------



## P Smith

If D12 will park at 103W with half of SB tpns or half span-life or something else (extended wobbling), BUT will deliver new national HD channels I would say it is OK and fine !


----------



## bluemoon737

jjeeffff said:


> Sixto, A question from a novice on this subject. Are the 30 new channels that Directv announced this week for May going to come from the new sat or directv 10 or 11? If they are going to come from the new sat, how is the new sat going to be ready to go by the end of May when is is still currently testing at 76?


30 channels to start being added in May. They did not say that all 30 would be added in May (and it actually sounds like they won't). So it wouldn't take any effort to add a few channels to the existing birds regardless of where D12 is and it's status.


----------



## bluemoon737

LameLefty said:


> There's nothing at all "sudden" about their announcement. Directv has been planning for D10/11/12 for a very long time.


Actually, wasn't D12 originally planned as an on ground contingent replacement in the event of a failure of D10 or D11? I seem to remember that discussion but could be mistaken.


----------



## Jeremy W

bluemoon737 said:


> Actually, wasn't D12 originally planned as an on ground contingent replacement in the event of a failure of D10 or D11? I seem to remember that discussion but could be mistaken.


It was.


----------



## Sixto

nd bronco fan said:


> We've got filings!!!
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/yesterdaysCommissionActions.do?ssid=1654288465&pgid=0


Thanks.

Updated post#1 with details.

To summarize ...

At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Awaiting approval for beyond 4/19/2010. Request was made on 4/15/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/22/2010 to 5/22/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Awaiting approval for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.​May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.​


----------



## Beerstalker

Looks to me like someone at the FCC keeps getting behind on their paperwork.


----------



## GoPokes43

Doug Brott said:


> I think you took my comments too literally .. I didn't say in "tech geeks" terms .. The bottom line is D12 needs to be in position and working (as we expect).
> 
> *Why August? * Besides, I'm pretty sure we're gonna see most of what was announced and maybe even some of what wasn't announced in May .. There really isn't a compelling reason to hold out unless DIRECTV wants to Market it as multiple HD roll outs. Capacity will be available once D12 lands in the right spot.


Because D*'s press release said that the 30 HD channels would begin rollout in May and the rollout would continue the "following few months." A "few" is more than two, which puts us in August. Additionally, at least one of the channels GolTV HD doesn't begin broadcast until 8/1/10. Maybe all 29 others will be broadcasting in May, June and July, but at least one has to wait until August. None of the new Showtime channels are in HD currently and a few other of the new HD channels do not yet broadcast in HD. So, D12 isn't (or won't be the only) reason they all won't pop up in May. Finally, it is likely that many of the contracts with the channels have various start dates - when negotiating those, they may not have wanted to lock themselves into too early of a date.


----------



## slimoli

I think all the 30 announced new HD channels are already broadcasting in HD with the exception of GOLTV, is that correct ?


----------



## rrrick8

Beerstalker said:


> Looks to me like someone at the FCC keeps getting behind on their paperwork.


Maybe they're using the same practices of the SEC regulators.

SEC and Pornography: Workers Spent Hours on Porn Sites Instead of Stopping Fraud


----------



## Christopher Gould

how about we remember the old days before local in local when D* never added more than one or two channels a month.


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

Yeah I remember when we were excited to get ESPN in HD. What were there in 2001... Like 3 to 4 channels. I remember I used HDNet late night to calibrate my TV.


----------



## BudShark

Earth Station STAs for testing were granted... still nothing for the Sat itself (either the pending drift or the pending test)


----------



## Davenlr

Lyle Thorogood said:


> Yeah I remember when we were excited to get ESPN in HD. What were there in 2001... Like 3 to 4 channels. I remember I used HDNet late night to calibrate my TV.


Yea, I remember spending close to $600 for a Hughes E86 DirecTv receiver (no DVR even available) to watch those couple channels on my new HDTV. There was one local station broadcasting in HD OTA at the time.

Now you can get a HD DVR for <$200 with a crudload of channels, and people whine...

Go Figure.


----------



## Paul A

My best guess, the sun will come out Wed, May 19th, 3am pacific time when D12 will broadcast its first HD broadcasts

Bet your bottom dollar...Come what may


----------



## Rikinky

Everyone just chill out about D12, Everything is going to be fine Directv is sending backup for D12: Look for yourself:
Mysterious X-37B unmanned space shuttle launched by U.S. ... and they won't say what it's for
By Mail Foreign Service
Last updated at 3:23 AM on 23rd April 2010
It looks like the space shuttle's more diminutive cousin - but experts say it was created with technology from a generation beyond.
The U.S. military launched the mysterious X-37B unmanned winged spacecraft last night - but what America plans to do with it there is anyone's guess.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...e-shuttle-launched-tonight.html#ixzz0lt8v6GdY


----------



## Davenlr

Rikinky said:


> The U.S. military launched the mysterious X-37B unmanned winged spacecraft last night - but what America plans to do with it there is anyone's guess.


Its getting ready to photograph the 2012 Myan predicted Apocalypse in 3D-HD in case anyone is around to complain about DirecTv 13 not getting to its on orbit slot quick enough.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Davenlr said:


> Its getting ready to photograph the 2012 Myan predicted Apocalypse in 3D-HD in case anyone is around to complain about DirecTv 13 not getting to its on orbit slot quick enough.


and to show the cubs win it all with a 3D-HD 360 view of 1060 west addison


----------



## Rob

It's going to grab satellites and bring them back to earth for retrofits. D12 has been purposely segregated from other satellites and the experimental space craft will practice retrieving it and than placing it back out into orbit.


----------



## texasmoose

Paul A said:


> My best guess, the sun will come out Wed, May 19th, 3am pacific time when D12 will broadcast its first HD broadcasts
> 
> Bet your bottom dollar...Come what may


Since when does the sun come out @ 3am?!? Maybe in Alaska, not in SoCal.

My guess is the following Wed., May 26th.


----------



## smiddy

Yawn! <Stretch> Are we there yet?


----------



## Athlon646464

Rikinky said:


> Everyone just chill out about D12, Everything is going to be fine Directv is sending backup for D12: Look for yourself:
> Mysterious X-37B unmanned space shuttle launched by U.S. ... and they won't say what it's for
> By Mail Foreign Service
> Last updated at 3:23 AM on 23rd April 2010
> It looks like the space shuttle's more diminutive cousin - but experts say it was created with technology from a generation beyond.
> The U.S. military launched the mysterious X-37B unmanned winged spacecraft last night - but what America plans to do with it there is anyone's guess.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...e-shuttle-launched-tonight.html#ixzz0lt8v6GdY
> View attachment 21889


There were actually 2 of them launched, one for each eye. They're needed for the next generation of 3D TV.


----------



## Athlon646464

Davenlr said:


> Yea, I remember spending close to $600 for a Hughes E86 DirecTv receiver (no DVR even available) to watch those couple channels on my new HDTV. There was one local station broadcasting in HD OTA at the time.
> 
> Now you can get a HD DVR for <$200 with a crudload of channels, and people whine...
> 
> Go Figure.


As long as we're going down memory lane........ (exactly 13 years ago)

http://web.archive.org/web/19970605044903/www.directv.com/programming/compare.html

Gotta love the up to 200!! The same marketeer is still there!


----------



## Athlon646464

BTW - here was the last time the sky actually did fall!

:grin::grin::grin:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000303...ming/programmingtablepages/0,1115,179,00.html

:grin::grin::grin:

My, how things have changed.......


----------



## Smthkd

Athlon646464 said:


> As long as we're going down memory lane........ (exactly 13 years ago)
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/19970605044903/www.directv.com/programming/compare.html
> 
> Gotta love the up to 200!! The same marketeer is still there!


Wow, look at the programming cost near the bottom (Beginning at $5.99 up to $47.99) Man, I miss those prices! :nono2::lol:


----------



## loudo

Rikinky said:


> Everyone just chill out about D12, Everything is going to be fine Directv is sending backup for D12: Look for yourself:
> Mysterious X-37B unmanned space shuttle launched by U.S. ... and they won't say what it's for
> By Mail Foreign Service
> Last updated at 3:23 AM on 23rd April 2010
> It looks like the space shuttle's more diminutive cousin - but experts say it was created with technology from a generation beyond.
> The U.S. military launched the mysterious X-37B unmanned winged spacecraft last night - but what America plans to do with it there is anyone's guess.
> 
> Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...e-shuttle-launched-tonight.html#ixzz0lt8v6GdY
> View attachment 21889


We went to the beach and watched it go up, last night. It was quite a sight.


----------



## mikemaxj

D12 is probobly OK as far as hardware goes, but the software on board is probobly not working yet. If the same software group that programs my HR20 is doing D12, they may never get it right.


----------



## Rikinky

New Directv slogan:


----------



## Hoosier205

It doesn't really matter. It will be available when needed. Those who need to know...know.


----------



## Athlon646464

Hoosier205 said:


> It doesn't really matter. It will be available when needed. Those who need to know...know.


It's more like people who know people that know, know.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Rob said:


> It's going to grab satellites and bring them back to earth for retrofits. D12 has been purposely segregated from other satellites and the experimental space craft will practice retrieving it and than placing it back out into orbit.


Creative, cute and interesting theory, tho the X37 is smaller than D12 and 2/3rds the weight. Ain't gonna be moving GSO sats anytime. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jilardi2

Tom Robertson said:


> Creative, cute and interesting theory, tho the X37 is smaller than D12 and 2/3rds the weight. Ain't gonna be moving GSO sats anytime.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


D12 is not fine she called me crying last night, she said i want to be with you joe, i want you to see my big beautiful signals, and my bright beautiful colors, i cant wait another moment or i'll kill myself. but i talked her out of it by telling her will be able to be together in about a month. she said do you promise, i told her yes i do, and i will see you SOON.


----------



## Sixto

Update #162 - similar.


----------



## zudy

sigma1914 said:


> More testing? So, D12 is broke? Great!


Wow talk about doom and gloom, relax.


----------



## sigma1914

zudy said:


> Wow talk about doom and gloom, relax.


The  at the end was to indicate a wink...like "haha, just kidding."


----------



## P Smith

FYI: E14 is raising orbit.


----------



## wmb

Athlon646464 said:


> It's more like people who know people that know, know.


Isn't it people who know people that know people that know Kevin Bacon. :scratch:


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> FYI: E14 is raising orbit.


And we care because? You have info in your excellently informative E14 thread, no need to try and stir pots here in a *D12 thread*.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

JoeTheDragon said:


> and to show the cubs win it all with a 3D-HD 360 view of 1060 west addison


"Hey! That's Wrigley Field!" -_The Blues Brothers_


----------



## Hoosier205

P Smith said:


> FYI: E14 is raising orbit.


Good for them. Dish customers can enjoy even more choppy and soft HD.

Anyway, back to D12...since this is a D12 thread in the DirecTV section of the forum.


----------



## Skyboss

Davenlr said:


> Yea, I remember spending close to $600 for a Hughes E86 DirecTv receiver (no DVR even available) to watch those couple channels on my new HDTV. There was one local station broadcasting in HD OTA at the time.
> 
> Now you can get a HD DVR for <$200 with a crudload of channels, and people whine...
> 
> Go Figure.


A lot of people, like myself, complain (whine as you put it) because no sooner did we by a $600-1000 receiver did DirecTV opt for MPEG-4 making such sub $1000 products fancy door stops over night. I myself bought 3 HD-Tivos that ultimately had a shelf life of less than 18 months. Then, I had to fork out another $1,000 so I could have more than a couple HD channels once MPEG-4 was launched. So yeah, some of us have earned the right to "whine".

That said, anyone who has signed up in the post MPEG-4 era, had their entire system installed for free or less than a couple hundred buck *and* received the benefit of low cost initial programing (which was kind of a perk early on after you dropped several hundred bucks on equipment to get into DirecTV) can stuff it as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## P Smith

sigma1914 said:


> And we care because? You have info in your excellently informative E14 thread, no need to try and stir pots here in a *D12 thread*.


Better then this one what turned into pile of ....


----------



## jerrylove56

Skyboss said:


> A lot of people, like myself, complain (whine as you put it) because no sooner did we by a $600-1000 receiver did DirecTV opt for MPEG-4 making such sub $1000 products fancy door stops over night. I myself bought 3 HD-Tivos that ultimately had a shelf life of less than 18 months. Then, I had to fork out another $1,000 so I could have more than a couple HD channels once MPEG-4 was launched. So yeah, some of us have earned the right to "whine".
> 
> That said, anyone who has signed up in the post MPEG-4 era, had their entire system installed for free or less than a couple hundred buck *and* received the benefit of low cost initial programing (which was kind of a perk early on after you dropped several hundred bucks on equipment to get into DirecTV) can stuff it as far as I'm concerned.


Isn't that the "price" for having all the new "trendy" gadgets in your home?


----------



## Skyboss

Davenlr said:


> Its getting ready to photograph the 2012 Myan predicted Apocalypse in 3D-HD in case anyone is around to complain about DirecTv 13 not getting to its on orbit slot quick enough.


I heard it was testing the shelf life of a Twinkie in space.


----------



## Skyboss

jerrylove56 said:


> Isn't that the "price" for having all the new "trendy" gadgets in your home?


In this case, not really. We waited a significant amount for time for that TiVo with much anticipation of an MPEG-2 future for HD. It wasn't about trendy, it was about having a well established Tivo product that could also record in HD. HD that was supposed to be in MPEG-2 - not MPEG-4. DirecTV was sold and the next thing you knew, you had a $1,000 door stop. The vast majority of us felt screwed, especially when they didn't even offer an exchange.


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> In this case, not really. We waited a significant amount for time for that TiVo with much anticipation of an MPEG-2 future for HD. It wasn't about trendy, it was about having a well established Tivo product that could also record in HD. HD that was supposed to be in MPEG-2 - not MPEG-4. DirecTV was sold and the next thing you knew, you had a $1,000 door stop. The vast majority of us felt screwed, especially when they didn't even offer an exchange.


Too bad MPEG4 is vastly more efficient and allows for much greater capacity. And too bad you didn't pay attention to the fact that Directv had already announced and publicized its decision to go to MPEG4 HD in January 2005, right about the time the HR10-250 hit the market. Blame TiVo for not including MPEG4 tuners, not Directv for following their announced plans.


----------



## jerrylove56

Skyboss said:


> In this case, not really. We waited a significant amount for time for that TiVo with much anticipation of an MPEG-2 future for HD. It wasn't about trendy, it was about having a well established Tivo product that could also record in HD. HD that was supposed to be in MPEG-2 - not MPEG-4. DirecTV was sold and the next thing you knew, you had a $1,000 door stop. The vast majority of us felt screwed, especially when they didn't even offer an exchange.


I understand your point. But in today's consumer electronic field, retailers and service providers work overtime to make their devices/services obsolete in order to market their latest "widget" the next best thing to possess. (i.e., 3D TV)


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> And too bad you didn't pay attention to the fact that Directv had already announced and publicized its decision to go to MPEG4 HD in January 2005, right about the time the HR10-250 hit the market.


Were you even a sub then? :nono2:


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> Were you even a sub then? :nono2:


I've been a sub since April 1997.


----------



## Skyboss

jerrylove56 said:


> I understand your point. But in today's consumer electronic field, retailers and service providers work overtime to make their devices/services obsolete in order to market their latest "widget" the next best thing to possess. (i.e., 3D TV)


Yeah, I get that. That's not what happened here.



LameLefty said:


> I've been a sub since April 1997.


So you were asleep? Not a TiVo user? What? Just trying to figure out your revisionist history on this.


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> Too bad MPEG4 is vastly more efficient and allows for much greater capacity. And too bad you didn't pay attention to the fact that Directv had already announced and publicized its decision to go to MPEG4 HD in January 2005, right about the time the HR10-250 hit the market. Blame TiVo for not including MPEG4 tuners, not Directv for following their announced plans.


Take a cup of coffee out of your diet. Seriously, no need for this.

It would have been reasonable to expect a free / reduced price swap for this, at the time. That sort-of happened, but combine this with leasing and commitments, and it rings a bit hollow for some. Perfectly understandable.


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> Take a cup of coffee out of your diet. Seriously, no need for this.
> 
> It would have been reasonable to expect a free / reduced price swap for this, at the time. That sort-of happened, but combine this with leasing and commitments, and it rings a bit hollow for some. Perfectly understandable.


Thanks for your misplaced concern with my diet. Directv gave away millions of MPEG4-compatible boxes during the transition. Just do a search here for the threads from 2006 - 2007 about the exchange programs.

None of which has anything to do with Directv 12.

:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> So you were asleep? Not a TiVo user? What? Just trying to figure out your revisionist history on this.


I had two Phillips DSR6000's in 2001 which I used for over 5 years. Those were my first, last and only TiVo products. And do a search: a LOT of people got free HR2x boxes if they had HR10-250's on their accounts.

None of which has anything to do with D12.


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> Thanks for your misplaced concern with my diet. Directv gave away millions of MPEG4-compatible boxes during the transition. Just do a search here for the threads from 2006 - 2007 about the exchange programs.
> 
> None of which has anything to do with Directv 12.
> 
> :backtotop


amazing how :backtotop comes up when it wants to, huh?

I'm well aware of the exchange - I also was an HR10-250 owner at $1k, and got swapped out. I don't share the animosity the OP does, but I don't think it's fair to question whether someone should have waited on a D* MPEG4 box in 2005 (that had only been announced, barely), or choose no HD recording option at all.

Think about it - you could be out the same amount of time waiting on the "announced" MPEG4 Tivo, right now. How would that be working out?


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> Thanks for your misplaced concern with my diet. Directv gave away millions of MPEG4-compatible boxes during the transition. Just do a search here for the threads from 2006 - 2007 about the exchange programs.


Thats funny.

By the way, DirecTV announced MPEG-4 in January of 2005. I just found the receipt for my 3 HR10-250's. It's dated July 31, 2004. January of '05 follows well after August of '04.

Some people received them as early as late April/Early May:

http://tivobeta4.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=151443&page=22

Just so you know the true history on this vs. your apparently unfortunate memory loss.

Now we can go - Back to topic....

Which is eerily like it was when we were waiting for the amazing 7S to go live with the promise of tons of HD we never got..... Anyone remember "INHD" discussions... LOL. :grin:


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> Thats funny.
> 
> By the way, DirecTV announced MPEG-4 in January of 2005. I just found the receipt for my 3 HR10-250's. It's dated July 31, 2004.
> 
> Just so you know the true history on this vs. your apparently unfortunate memory loss.


Great! You got nearly 6 years out of a piece of consumer electronics hardware, PLUS the opportunities to add MPEG4 hardware at free or reduced cost before it became effectively useless. Good on ya!

So what exactly are you complaining about again? 

BACK TO TOPIC.

:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> amazing how :backtotop comes up when it wants to, huh?


It's coming out here when the OT banter turns into OT irrational rants or complaints not grounded in fact.



> Think about it - you could be out the same amount of time waiting on the "announced" MPEG4 Tivo, right now. How would that be working out?


I never have any interest in that mythical box (which no one has yet seen). Take it up with TiVo.

And now tell me what THAT has to do, even tangentially, with D12?


----------



## MartyS

hancox said:


> Take a cup of coffee out of your diet. Seriously, no need for this.
> 
> It would have been reasonable to expect a free / reduced price swap for this, at the time. That sort-of happened, but combine this with leasing and commitments, and it rings a bit hollow for some. Perfectly understandable.


They swapped out my boxes at no cost when the made the announcement.


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> It's coming out here when the OT banter turns into OT irrational rants or complaints not grounded in fact.
> 
> I never have any interest in that mythical box (which no one has yet seen). Take it up with TiVo.
> 
> And now tell me what THAT has to do, even tangentially, with D12?


1) so you eviscerating the OP with your "too bad" post was rational and on-topic? right.

2) I'm trying to prove my point that going on "announcements" isn't the best plan.


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> Great! You got nearly 6 years out of a piece of consumer electronics hardware, PLUS the opportunities to add MPEG4 hardware at free or reduced cost before it became effectively useless. Good on ya!
> 
> So what exactly are you complaining about again?
> 
> BACK TO TOPIC.
> 
> :backtotop


2005 - 2004 = 6 years?

Man. Just quit alright. :nono2:

Spaceway went live in 2005.



LameLefty said:


> It's coming out here when the OT banter turns into OT irrational rants or complaints not grounded in fact.


Yet you are the one playing loose with the facts. :nono:

Here are the facts:

1. HD-Tivo hit the market in Mid 2004 (after much anticipation).
2. DirecTV announced MPEG-4 in Janaury of 2005.
3. Spaceway 1 and 2 launched in April and November 2005.

Any questions?



MartyS said:


> They swapped out my boxes at no cost when the made the announcement.


Not mine. Cost me $100 to change the dish and another $200 for each of the three MPEG-4 HD-DVR's.


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> 1) so you eviscerating the OP with your "too bad" post was rational and on-topic? right.


There was no "evisceration" going on, just a reminder of the technical realities of the MPEG2 - MPEG4 transition.



> 2) I'm trying to prove my point that going on "announcements" isn't the best plan.


How about the announcement of the launch of Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2? They were both in operation mid/late 2006. How about the launch of D10, which was in operation by September 2007? D11?

The writing was on the wall, swap programs were in full swing and people were posting here about them DAILY. So what's the basis for the big complaints again?

And what has this got to do with D12?


----------



## jilardi2

its vicious in here today. :kickbutt::uglyhamme:flaiming!devil12::box::listenup::grrr::rant:


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> There was no "evisceration" going on, just a reminder of the technical realities of the MPEG2 - MPEG4 transition.


...and it's not relevantto D12, your point?



LameLefty said:


> And what has this got to do with D12?


Follow the OP if you need a mapping. It's right around where others were talking about shuttles fixing D12 and Wrigley Field.  I think I know where that rocket you were a scientist on ended up


----------



## LameLefty

hancox said:


> I think I know where that rocket you were a scientist on ended up


Since you think you're being clever . . .


----------



## hancox

There's a planetary joke there, but I'll keep it PG


----------



## hancox

LameLefty said:


> Since you think you're being clever . . .


No, and the fact you think I'm serious proves what I actually think even more


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> How about the announcement of the launch of Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2? They were both in operation mid/late 2006.


Announced January 2005, and alive by the end of December 2005. :nono2:

Please. Just stop with the revisionist history already.


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> Announced January 2005, and alive by the end of December 2005. :nono2:
> 
> Please. Just stop with the revisionist history already.


What's "revisionist?" The MPEG4 plan was announced at CES and it's been carried through. If anything, the inevitable delays gave you even more time to enjoy that lovely Tivo before it became obsolete.

So again, why are you complaining?


----------



## hancox

Sixto said:


> Update #162 - similar.


----------



## Skyboss

hancox said:


>


Awesome. :hurah:

Labs rule.


----------



## Skyboss

LameLefty said:


> What's "revisionist?" The MPEG4 plan was announced at CES and it's been carried through. If anything, the inevitable delays gave you even more time to enjoy that lovely Tivo before it became obsolete.
> 
> So again, why are you complaining?


:new_cussi

I've given you the timeline. It is fact. You are incorrect in all of your assertions.

It was less than 18 months from the time I pruchased and installed by HD-Tivo's to having to go back out and get an MPEG-4 DVR so I could see my locals in HD with the announcement of MPEG-4 ****AFTER**** I purchased my HD-Tivo's. The history is there for all to see and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Now back to D12.


----------



## Sixto

Skyboss said:


> Now back to D12.


Yes, Please.


----------



## Curtis0620

Sixto said:


> Yes, Please.


Is is moving yet?


----------



## LameLefty

Skyboss said:


> :new_cussi
> 
> I've given you the timeline. It is fact. You are incorrect in all of your assertions.
> 
> It was less than 18 months from the time I pruchased and installed by HD-Tivo's to having to go back out and get an MPEG-4 DVR so I could see my locals in HD with the announcement of MPEG-4 ****AFTER**** I purchased my HD-Tivo's. The history is there for all to see and you are wrong, wrong, wrong.


The history is not in dispute. Why you didn't take Directv up on any of the myriad of free swap offers is between you and them. And the history also shows you got keep using that DVR for nearly 6 years. Congratulations! 



> Now back to D12.


Where have I heard that before? 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Curtis0620 said:


> Is is moving yet?


Post #1 always has the answer. 

Still sitting at 76° as of 5:30am ET this morning. Just as previous 10 weeks.

And no FCC approval (that we can see) to do any testing at 76°.

And no FCC approval (that we can see) to do any Drifting.

Just another day in the neighborhood.


----------



## hidefman

Wow... over 7000 posts in here...


----------



## hidefman

Oh my gosh... is this what we have been waiting for?.......!!!!!!!

Applicant: Contact: WILLIAM M. WILTSHIRE 
DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC WILTSHIRE & GRANNIS LLP 
2230 E. Imperial Hwy 1200 18TH STREET, NW 
CA/LAI/N340 
El Segundo, CA 90245- USA WASHINGTON, DC 20036 USA 
Description: DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under


----------



## hidefman

...left some of it out.... request for drift from DirecTV! Filed today at 2:13 edt

SAT-STA-20100331-00060

Description DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force.


----------



## LameLefty

hidefman said:


> Oh my gosh... is this what we have been waiting for?.......!!!!!!!
> 
> Applicant: Contact: WILLIAM M. WILTSHIRE
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC WILTSHIRE & GRANNIS LLP
> 2230 E. Imperial Hwy 1200 18TH STREET, NW
> CA/LAI/N340
> El Segundo, CA 90245- USA WASHINGTON, DC 20036 USA
> Description: DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under


Is that new or the same STA request that was filed 3/31? I don't see anything new yet but I could be looking in the wrong places.


----------



## hidefman

I defer to the experts around here. Says it was filed today. So not so sure... also not so sure what it means either... maybe the FCC updated report is dated today. Yep that's what it looks like. Filing date is 3.31.2010....


----------



## Skyboss

hidefman said:


> So not so sure... also not so sure what it means either...


More waiting.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

hidefman said:


> ...left some of it out.... request for drift from DirecTV! Filed today at 2:13 edt
> 
> SAT-STA-*20100331*-00060
> 
> Description DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force.


2010 03 31


----------



## Sixto

hidefman said:


> Oh my gosh... is this what we have been waiting for?.......!!!!!!!
> 
> Applicant: Contact: WILLIAM M. WILTSHIRE
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC WILTSHIRE & GRANNIS LLP
> 2230 E. Imperial Hwy 1200 18TH STREET, NW
> CA/LAI/N340
> El Segundo, CA 90245- USA WASHINGTON, DC 20036 USA
> Description: DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under





hidefman said:


> ...left some of it out.... request for drift from DirecTV! Filed today at 2:13 edt
> 
> SAT-STA-20100331-00060
> 
> Description DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC requests an extension of its Special Temporary Authority to drift the DIRECTV 12 satellite from the 76 degree W.L. orbital location to its licensed orbital location. DIRECTV accepts the same terms and conditions applicable under the STA currently in force.


That's the 3/31 request. There's also the 4/15 request.

All documented in post#1/#2.


----------



## TDK1044

hidefman said:


> Wow... over 7000 posts in here...


Yes, but sadly about 6000 of them have little or nothing to do with D12.


----------



## hidefman

Sixto,
There are also two actions by the FCC yesterday on D12 (4/22/2010). Looks like granting authority for continued testing and telemetry control for D12. But you may have already reported those as well. Yep... I see the update on post #2. So nothing new, all is the same.


----------



## Sixto

hidefman said:


> Sixto,
> There are also two actions by the FCC yesterday on D12 (4/22/2010). Looks like granting authority for continued testing and telemetry control for D12. But you may have already reported those as well. Yep... I see the update on post #2. So nothing new, all is the same.


Yes, yesterday was the Earth Station communication approvals, summarized at the end of post#1, with details in post#2.

It's D12 itself that still lacks the approval for testing or Drift. Earth Station communication is approved for testing and Drift.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Yes, yesterday was the Earth Station communication approvals, summarized at the end of post#1, with details in post#2.
> 
> It's D12 itself that still lacks the approval for testing or Drift. Earth Station communication is approved for testing and Drift.


The FCC clearly understood the earth station must drift first before D12 may drift.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> The FCC clearly understood the earth station must drift first before D12 may drift.


Assume you're joking, otherwise not sure what you mean.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Assume you're joking, otherwise not sure what you mean.


Good assumption, I hope you put it to good use, we are dying here


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Good assumption, I hope you put it to good use, we are dying here




Sometimes a quiet thread is just fine. Opportunity to visit/post elsewhere.

Then pick-up when news or interesting topic to discuss.


----------



## Skyboss

jacmyoung said:


> Good assumption, I hope you put it to good use, we are dying here


Its not this???


----------



## Sixto

FCC Approval for Extension of Testing at 76° (4/23/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812496​Retro to 4/18/2010 for 30 days.


----------



## Sixto

Have now updated the chart in post#1:At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/18/2010 to 5/18/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/22/2010 to 5/22/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
*Awaiting approval* for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.​May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.​It looks like they may have been able to test all week with today's retro approval back to 4/18/2010.


----------



## flapperdink

Sixto said:


> It looks like they may have been able to test all week with today's retro approval back to 4/18/2010.


that's good news. hopefully they got a lot accomplished


----------



## wavemaster

Sixto said:


> Awaiting approval for beyond 4/6/2010. Request was made on 3/31/2010.


Hopefully that approval is right behind the other.


----------



## nd bronco fan

The last two days there has been some activity on the filings. Interesting to see if there is more coming.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Sixto said:


> Just another day in the neighborhood.


And yet I just can't stop myself from looking. It's like driving by an accident.:eek2:


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> P Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI: E14 is raising orbit.
> 
> 
> 
> Good for them. Dish customers can enjoy even more choppy and soft HD.
> 
> Anyway, back to D12...since this is a D12 thread in the DirecTV section of the forum.
Click to expand...

Touchy! Just can't accept good news for anyone? (I might just win my bet that E14 will be in place before D12.)

Sure is a lot of angst in this thread over 30 HD channels.


----------



## Jeremy W

James Long said:


> Touchy! Just can't accept good news for anyone?


The good news for anything that is not D12 doesn't belong here. As a mod, you should know that.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Touchy! Just can't accept good news for anyone? (I might just win my bet that E14 will be in place before D12.)
> 
> Sure is a lot of angst in this thread over 30 HD channels.


I can accept good news, but DirecTV topics belong here and Dish Network topics belong here. I don't troll there and expect them not to troll here.


----------



## erosroadie

James Long said:


> Touchy! Just can't accept good news for anyone? (I might just win my bet that E14 will be in place before D12.)
> 
> Sure is a lot of angst in this thread over 30 HD channels.


On that subject...

By its design (and assuming all the parts are working properly), how many HD channels could D12 handle and beam? I assume it's more than the 30 that are planned/announced. What is this satellite's "capacity" (for lack of a better word) of HD channels?
:wizardhat


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> I can accept good news, but DirecTV topics belong here and Dish Network topics belong here. I don't troll there and expect them not to troll here.


I expect less derogatory language ... but this is a heated discussion so I can excuse the occasional slip into put downs and name calling.


----------



## Jeremy W

erosroadie said:


> By its design (and assuming all the parts are working properly), how many HD channels could D12 handle and beam?


With the current settings being used with D10 and D11, 75 channels.


----------



## James Long

erosroadie said:


> By its design (and assuming all the parts are working properly), how many HD channels could D12 handle and beam? I assume it's more than the 30 that are planned/announced. What is this satellite's "capacity" (for lack of a better word) of HD channels?
> :wizardhat


DirecTV claimed that D12 would increase their capacity by 50% and that after D12 is in place they will have a total capacity for 200 HD channels. They have an announced list of ~160. So one could say 40 more HDs. Choose wisely!


----------



## RAD

James Long said:


> Touchy! Just can't accept good news for anyone? (I might just win my bet that E14 will be in place before D12.)
> 
> Sure is a lot of angst in this thread over 30 HD channels.





Hoosier205 said:


> I can accept good news, but DirecTV topics belong here and Dish Network topics belong here. I don't troll there and expect them not to troll here.





James Long said:


> I expect less derogatory language ... but this is a heated discussion so I can excuse the occasional slip into put downs and name calling.


_"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts *inflammatory*, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the * primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response* [1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion._

IMHO the OP's comment appears to fit the definition provided.


----------



## morgan79

:beatdeadhorse: they will be on when there turned on..:eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

I still have yet to figure out why people who aren't subscribers of a service still hang out in forums dedicated to a competing service. It's one thing to ask questions and provide information in a neutral tone. It's quite another to post off-topic or negative-toned comments disguised with emoticons.

I just don't see the attraction. I think I may have posted twice in a Dish forum, ever.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> I expect less derogatory language ... but this is a heated discussion so I can excuse the occasional slip into put downs and name calling.


Well, I meant it more as the labeling of an act (trolling) rather than a personal attack on anyone. I don't appreciate it from anyone, including myself. I think we should all stick to our own discussions when possible. Cross-posting in threads dedicated to the service you don't subscribe to is just looking for a rise out of people. I would consider myself a troll if I took my little avatar over there and started posting. P Smith does a great job over there. It just has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


----------



## Sixto

The answer is in post#1.

Max 80.

16 transponders. 5 each.

If same encoding/compression as D10/D11.

D10/D11 do have some transponders with only 4 HD channels, so in reality it might be some number slightly less then 80.


----------



## evan_s

erosroadie said:


> On that subject...
> 
> By its design (and assuming all the parts are working properly), how many HD channels could D12 handle and beam? I assume it's more than the 30 that are planned/announced. What is this satellite's "capacity" (for lack of a better word) of HD channels?
> :wizardhat


DirecTV has filed that D12 will run 16 conus tps. With the standard 5 channels per tp DirecTV uses this would be 80 additional channels. D10/D11 currently only run 14 tps each which would be 140 channels but DirecTV has several TPs with sports channels (espn and RSNs) that only run 4 channels per TP.


----------



## Sixto

Drift approved.


----------



## nd bronco fan

Sixto said:


> The answer is in post#1.
> 
> Max 80.
> 
> 16 transponders. 5 each.
> 
> If same encoding/compression as D10/D11.
> 
> D10/D11 do have some transponders with only 4 HD channels, so in reality it might be some number slightly less then 80.


You ever consider changing the title of the thread to "Sixto Report-See post #1 before asking any questions"?


----------



## Sixto

FCC Grant for D12 Drift (4/23/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812524​Updated info:At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/18/2010 to 5/18/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
Then extended 4/22/2010 to 5/22/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/26/2010 to 5/26/2010.

Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.​


----------



## nd bronco fan

Sixto said:


> FCC Grant for D12 Drift (4/23/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812524​


Commencing on April 26th.........looks like next week she could be on the move.


----------



## Indiana627

Finally!


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> I still have yet to figure out why people who aren't subscribers of a service still hang out in forums dedicated to a competing service.


Personally: Over 27000 posts and probably well less than a 1000 in a DirecTV forum. I don't read this forum ... but occasionally a thread is brought to my attention due to being linked on homepage news or seeing it in the recent posts column on the homepage.

We are all members of the entire forum. I appreciate the people that don't visit the opposite forum just to stir things up but I don't believe every opposite forum post is stirring. Nor do I believe every post that some may consider opposite is intended as stirring. With many people complaining about how long D12 has been sitting at 76 the speed DISH is working to get E14 into service is part of the topic.

Nice to see the drift approved! Soon E14 and D12 will move toward each other (but they won't pass) and hopefully everyone can be happy.


----------



## hidefman

There we go! Thanks Sixto


----------



## Sixto

nd bronco fan said:


> You ever consider changing the title of the thread to "Sixto Report-See post #1 before asking any questions"?


I actually did consider that. 

Ah, just finally changed it.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> FCC Grant for D12 Drift (4/23/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812524​


Ah, nice late Friday afternoon reading. Thanks, buddy! :up:


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
> May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.
> [/INDENT]
> [/indent]


Wouldn't today's approval cover this?



> Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized, for a period of 30 days commencing on April 26, 2010, to conduct telemetry, tracking, and telecommand (TT&C) operations on the 29255.00 MHz and 29497.00 MHz command uplinks and the 18302.24 MHz and 18302.75 MHz telemetry and beacon downlinks, during the relocation of the DIRECTV 12/RB-2A satellite from the 76∘(deg.) W.L. orbital location to the 102.765 (deg.) W.L. orbital location.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Sixto said:


> Drift approved.


Is something supposed to drift? I don't understand. What are you guys talking about? Can someone fill me in. I don't like reading all of this stuff. Are we getting more channels or something? I hope they are in HD.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Wouldn't today's approval cover this?


No, D12 has until 5/26, the Earth Stations only have until 5/7. May need one more extension for the earth station communication.


----------



## Athlon646464

I WANT MORE said:


> Is something supposed to drift? I don't understand. What are you guys talking about? Can someone fill me in. I don't like reading all of this stuff. Are we getting more channels or something? I hope they are in HD.


"Is something supposed to drift?" Yes, D12
"I don't understand. What are you guys talking about?" D12
"Can someone fill me in." Sure
"I don't like reading all of this stuff." OK
"Are we getting more channels or something?" Yes
"I hope they are in HD." They will be

D12 will 'drift' to it's correct place in space.....


----------



## Lord Vader

Lord Vader on 4-20-10 said:


> It isn't now, but it should be [on the move] within the next 7 to 10 days.


----------



## steveholtam

Thanks for the info Sixto! A drift sounds so nice after all the odd posts in this thread lately. 

I hope those users who have sliced and diced other people thoughts and then replied with such ill will and negativity get over themselves after this thread is over. I've been a mod on many sites over the past 15 years, and excluding political threads, which never end well, have never seen so many people take such stupid stands about meaningless topics. A classic was arguing over how long 'soon' is? How adult, and dumb. That is just one example of many.

I actually prefer the goofy and fun off-topic posts WAY more then the bickering and fighting, which is just a waste of everyone's time and energy. We are here to learn and have fun. And just because you end a post with "Now Back to D12" does not make your offensive post any less offensive. It takes two to argue. So before you hit reply to defend your side, please think about perhaps using the PM button instead, because the rest of us do not care which side wins or loses. We just want you to shut up.

Cheers.


----------



## Skyboss

So how long before we see some channels? :beatdeadhorse::bonk1::shrug::goodandba


----------



## Sixto

Skyboss said:


> So how long before we see some channels? :beatdeadhorse:


May.


----------



## Skyboss

Sixto said:


> May.


Just messin.


----------



## Hoosier205

Crow sure has been in high demand around here lately...


----------



## I WANT MORE

Athlon646464 said:


> "Is something supposed to drift?" Yes, D12
> "I don't understand. What are you guys talking about?" D12
> "Can someone fill me in." Sure
> "I don't like reading all of this stuff." OK
> "Are we getting more channels or something?" Yes
> "I hope they are in HD." They will be
> 
> D12 will 'drift' to it's correct place in space.....


Oh, OK. Thanks a lot. That sounds cool.


----------



## James Long

Skyboss said:


> So how long before we see some channels? :beatdeadhorse::bonk1::shrug::goodandba


Abril de Telefutura y Univision alta definición. (De verano para Gol TV.) 

_D12 está bien y estará en servicio según lo programado._
(Posted for those who don't seem to understand English.)


----------



## T-Hefner

Woooooo....Drift approved.....This is it!!! 

Yeah, Looks like it will be starting 30 day approval from the 26th of April....So I would think it will start the move soon...

-Tim


----------



## slimoli

With 4 instead of 5 HD channels per transponder, is there a real picture quality difference to the viewer ? If ESPN was in a 5 channels transponder, would it be considered "compressed" ? I know everything is "compressed" but I'm talking about "extra" compressing.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> FCC Grant for D12 Drift (4/23/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=812524​Updated info:At 76°, there's D12 testing and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.D12 was approved 2/13/2010 to 3/15/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Then extended 4/18/2010 to 5/18/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 2/12/2010 to 3/12/2010.
> Then extended 3/19/2010 to 4/19/2010.
> Then extended 4/22/2010 to 5/22/2010.​For the Drift, there's D12 and earth station communication, total of 3 STA's.
> D12 was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/26/2010 to 5/26/2010.
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
> May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.​


So they're done testing at 76?


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> So they're done testing at 76?


Not done until we see it move.

This was just paperwork to allow testing and drifting, whenever they're ready.


----------



## Davenlr

slimoli said:


> With 4 instead of 5 HD channels per transponder, is there a real picture quality difference to the viewer ? If ESPN was in a 5 channels transponder, would it be considered "compressed" ? I know everything is "compressed" but I'm talking about "extra" compressing.


Depends what the source bitrate is to begin with. PBS only had two mpeg2 channels per transponder for their source feed. I would imagine it would noticably affect it to add more.
If you had a 720p or <46" set, probably not. To many variables.


----------



## Skyboss

James Long said:


> Abril de Telefutura y Univision alta definición. (De verano para Gol TV.)
> 
> _D12 está bien y estará en servicio según lo programado._
> (Posted for those who don't seem to understand English.)


Ummm... Yeah???


----------



## tcusta00

Thanks for the update Sixto.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Me like drift news!


----------



## VandyCWG

Great news! Thanks Sixto dude!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I have a good feeling about things... I think you all will too, very soon.


----------



## slimoli

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have a good feeling about things... I think you all will too, very soon.


Something beyond the existing, already known, good news ?


----------



## DaveC27

I WANT MORE said:


> Is something supposed to drift? I don't understand. What are you guys talking about? Can someone fill me in. I don't like reading all of this stuff. Are we getting more channels or something? I hope they are in HD.


The Satellite has to move from 76 to 103 there's two ways to do it, they could fire up the on board rockets and power it to its destined slot, but a satellite only has so much fuel on board and to do so would be to extremely shorten its life (the fuel is there to occasionally move the satellite back into position when it gradually floats out of the spot in space that it's supposed to reside

Now if you think that at its current positon it rotates the earth every 23hrs 56min's which keeps it geostationary. If they use a tiny bit of fuel to move it just out of the geostationary spot then it will orbit the earth slower than the earth rotates and so it will slowly drift from 76 to 103 and then when it gets to 103 they'll use a bit more rocket fuel to put it back into the geostationary spot

The slower it revolves around the earth the quicker it'll move to 103 but then requires more fuel to move it further away (and then back) to the geostationary belt

(though I am thinking of Newtonian physics here where an object continues to move until it meets an opposing force so I guess it requires as much fuel to travel 1000 miles as it does 10,000 miles)


----------



## brett_the_bomb

DaveC27 said:


> The Satellite has to move from 76 to 103 there's two ways to do it, they could fire up the on board rockets and power it to its destined slot, but a satellite only has so much fuel on board and to do so would be to extremely shorten its life (the fuel is there to occasionally move the satellite back into position when it gradually floats out of the spot in space that it's supposed to reside
> 
> Now if you think that at its current positon it rotates the earth every 23hrs 56min's which keeps it geostationary. If they use a tiny bit of fuel to move it just out of the geostationary spot then it will orbit the earth slower than the earth rotates and so it will slowly drift from 76 to 103 and then when it gets to 103 they'll use a bit more rocket fuel to put it back into the geostationary spot
> 
> The slower it revolves around the earth the quicker it'll move to 103 but then requires more fuel to move it further away (and then back) to the geostationary belt
> 
> (though I am thinking of Newtonian physics here where an object continues to move until it meets an opposing force so I guess it requires as much fuel to travel 1000 miles as it does 10,000 miles)


wouldnt the amount of fuel used have more to do with how fast they move it rather than how far they move it since it takes more fuel to get it going faster and more fuel to slow it down? im not a physics guy by any means so this is actually a real question for me.


----------



## LameLefty

brett_the_bomb said:


> wouldnt the amount of fuel used have more to do with how fast they move it rather than how far they move it since it takes more fuel to get it going faster and more fuel to slow it down? im not a physics guy by any means so this is actually a real question for me.


Yes. The orbit is typically raised on the order of 70 - 100 km to achieve a relatively slow nominal drift westward. The orbit is then lowered by the same amount to park the satellite in its assigned slot.


----------



## Hdhead

I think there is a good chance we will see movement before the end of the weekend.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

LameLefty said:


> Yes. The orbit is typically raised on the order of 70 - 100 km to achieve a relatively slow nominal drift westward. The orbit is then lowered by the same amount to park the satellite in its assigned slot.


lefty, out of curiosity, do you know in relative terms how fast they move a sat? like kph or mph? are they like blistering along or slow poking it?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Somebody needs to buy you a beer Sixto. I would if i lived in the Northeast. Maybe you can get that deadbeat MacLeod to buy you one. 

Thanks for the update.


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

James Long said:


> Abril de Telefutura y Univision alta definición. (De verano para Gol TV.)
> 
> _D12 está bien y estará en servicio según lo programado._
> (Posted for those who don't seem to understand English.)


YEAH BABY! Ah los frijoles casi, casi.... y unos tortillas... Umm....


----------



## LameLefty

brett_the_bomb said:


> lefty, out of curiosity, do you know in relative terms how fast they move a sat? like kph or mph? are they like blistering along or slow poking it?


I did the math weeks ago (months maybe? ) somewhere in the thread, but it's relatively slow - well, considering they are sailing around the earth at several tens of thousands of feet per second all the while, "slow" is definitely relative. :grin: The fact that Directv has nominally planned for about 20 days for the drift is telling.


----------



## VeniceDre

What is this "Drift" thing?... And why is important?



I've been watching this thread from the sidelines... cracking up.

There should be a new definition for *"Insanity"*:

"The definition of insanity is posting the same thing over and over again and expecting D12 to drift".

:lol:


----------



## Lt Disher

Hdhead said:


> I think there is a good chance we will see movement before the end of the weekend.


The authorization is dated to begin on April 26 (Monday). Do you think they would begin movement before the authorized date?


----------



## Doug Brott

Wouldn't the "speed" be roughly (25,000 * (103-76)/360) / (168*3) or do I have to get that stupid math character (Pi) involved.

It's roughly 3.75 Miles/hour if my math is right.


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> Wouldn't the "speed" be roughly (25,000 * (103-76)/360) / (168*3) or do I have to get that stupid math character involved.
> 
> *It's roughly 3.75 Miles/hour if my math is right.*


:eek2: My wheelchair is faster then that. :lol:


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Wouldn't the "speed" be roughly (25,000 * (103-76)/360) / (168*3) or do I have to get that stupid math character (Pi) involved.
> 
> It's roughly 3.75 Miles/hour if my math is right.


The orbit is further than the circumference of the earth due to the height above the earth's service.

Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)
Orbit circumference: 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
Orbital velocity: 11,066 km/hr= 3.07 km/sec (6,876 miles/hr)
(And that is when it is "standing still" geostationary.)

Give the satellite the same forward velocity in a higher orbit (more distance around the globe) and it will "move" west.
(Meanwhile E14 will move to a lower orbit - less distance around the globe - to move east.)


----------



## P Smith

Doug Brott said:


> Wouldn't the "speed" be roughly (25,000 * (103-76)/360) / (168*3) or do I have to get that stupid math character (Pi) involved.
> 
> It's roughly 3.75 Miles/hour if my math is right.


Another attempt:
2x 35,786 km x 3.14 [Pi] = 2x112368 km
103 - 76 = 27 degree
360/27 = 13.3(3)
2x112368/13.33 = 2x8427.6 km
2x8427.6 km / 20 days = 2x4214 km/day
2x4214 km /24 hrs = 2x175.6 km/h

Drift's speed = 350 km/h -> 217 mph if the drift will take 20 days.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Give the satellite the same forward velocity in a higher orbit (more distance around the globe) and it will "move" west.


Correction: you can't put the vehicle into a higher orbit with the same velocity. The altitude of the orbit (e.g., the distance from the Earth's center of mass) is dependent upon the velocity. To raise the orbit (and thus "slow down" relative the surface of the Earth), the satellite must increase its forward velocity. To "speed up" relative to the surface of the Earth, the satellite must decrease its forward velocity.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> Another attempt:
> 2x 35,786 km x 3.14 [Pi] = 2x112368 km
> 103 - 76 = 27 degree
> 360/27 = 13.3(3)
> 2x112368/13.33 = 2x8427.6 km
> 2x8427.6 km / 20 days = 2x4214 km/day
> 2x4214 km /24 hrs = 2x175.6 km/h
> 
> Drift's speed = 350 km/h -> 217 mph if the drift will take 20 days.


Hmmm ...
Height above equator: 35,785 km (22,236 miles)
Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)

360 degree orbit is 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
27 degree change in position is x/360*27 = 2,683.875 km (12,343.65 miles)
/ 20 days = 134.19375 km (617.1825 miles) per day
/ 24 hours = 5.59140625 km (25.7159375 miles) per hour

Relative to the orbital velocity at geostationary. As noted before, the satellite will be traveling the same speed through space, just taking a longer path.



LameLefty said:


> Correction: you can't put the vehicle into a higher orbit with the same velocity. The altitude of the orbit (e.g., the distance from the Earth's center of mass) is dependent upon the velocity. To raise the orbit (and thus "slow down" relative the surface of the Earth), the satellite must increase its forward velocity. To "speed up" relative to the surface of the Earth, the satellite must decrease its forward velocity.


If you want to remain geostationary you will need to increase speed ... but no one here wants D12 to remain geostationary until it reaches 103.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

P Smith said:


> Another attempt:
> 2x 35,786 km x 3.14 [Pi] = 2x112368 km
> 103 - 76 = 27 degree
> 360/27 = 13.3(3)
> 2x112368/13.33 = 2x8427.6 km
> 2x8427.6 km / 20 days = 2x4214 km/day
> 2x4214 km /24 hrs = 2x175.6 km/h
> 
> Drift's speed = 350 km/h -> 217 mph if the drift will take 20 days.





James Long said:


> Hmmm ...
> Height above equator: 35,785 km (22,236 miles)
> Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)
> 
> 360 degree orbit is 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
> 27 degree change in position is x/360*27 = 2,683.875 km (12,343.65 miles)
> / 20 days = 134.19375 km (617.1825 miles) per day
> / 24 hours = 5.59140625 km (25.7159375 miles) per hour
> 
> Relative to the orbital velocity at geostationary. As noted before, the satellite will be traveling the same speed through space, just taking a longer path.
> 
> If you want to remain geostationary you will need to increase speed ... but no one here wants D12 to remain geostationary until it reaches 103.


:eek2: I think I'd rather go back to the bickering and determining what "soon" and "later in the year" really means.

J/K ....  :lol: !rolling

Nice work and thanks for the details. I think.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Relative to the orbital velocity at geostationary. As noted before, the satellite will be traveling the same speed through space, just taking a longer path.


That's absolutely incorrect. GSO velocity is what it is. You CANNOT raise or lower an orbit without changing the velocity; altitude is determined SOLELY by the velocity of the satellite.

To drift one way or the other, the velocity of the satellite is increased to raise the orbit and increase the orbital period (resulting in a drift westward relative to the surface of the earth) or decreased to lower the orbit and thus shorten the orbital period (resulting in an eastward drift).


----------



## bgilga

They better launch another satellite soon or we are going to have to start spending time with our families. When is the next launch and what channels will we be able to expect?


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> That's absolutely incorrect. GSO velocity is what it is. You CANNOT raise or lower an orbit without changing the velocity; altitude is determined SOLELY by the velocity of the satellite.


Perhaps the problem is you're not looking at orbital velocity. It is all relative ... just relative to what.

In any case ... let's get that satellite moving (relativity).


----------



## spartanstew

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have a good feeling about things... I think you all will too, very soon.


I catch your drift.


----------



## davemayo

spartanstew said:


> I catch your drift.


Drift? Did someone say "drift"?


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Perhaps the problem is you're not looking at orbital velocity. It is all relative ... just relative to what.
> 
> In any case ... let's get that satellite moving (relativity).


Have you taken any classes in orbital mechanics? My explanation is perfectly correct and accurate. Here's a pretty good run-down (it summarizes about a semester of undergraduate material without the annoying homework, final exams and crusty professor).

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm


----------



## Doerner

Forgive me if this sounds silly, but since I don't know the answer, I'll just ask. Couldn't satellites use some sort of solar power 'engine' to move when needed? Other than for emergencies, I don't see why you'd need fuel up there.


----------



## ATARI

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Somebody needs to buy you a beer Sixto. I would if i lived in the Northeast. Maybe you can get that deadbeat MacLeod to buy you one.
> 
> Thanks for the update.


:goodjob:


----------



## ATARI

I sure am glad I checked this thread again before heading to bed.

Seeing 'Drift approved' added to the heading makes me smile 

Once it changes to 'Drifting...' I'll probably start doing the happy dance!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doerner said:


> Forgive me if this sounds silly, but since I don't know the answer, I'll just ask. Couldn't satellites use some sort of solar power 'engine' to move when needed? Other than for emergencies, I don't see why you'd need fuel up there.


The solar power engine requires something to produce thrust. The Boeing xips thrusters use electricity (from the solar panels) to heat xenon to provide that thrust. Much cheaper and lighter than chemical based reactions.

Even so, there is a limit to how much xenon they put into the satellites.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> The solar power engine requires something to produce thrust. The Boeing xips thrusters use electricity (from the solar panels) to heat xenon to provide that thrust. Much cheaper and lighter than chemical based reactions.


More importantly, it's incredibly more _efficient_ than chemical propellants - a whole order of magnitude and then some more efficient. That means for the same mass of propellants, a XIPS system will produce a much greater total change of velocity.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> The solar power engine requires something to produce thrust. The Boeing xips thrusters use electricity (from the solar panels) to heat xenon to provide that thrust. Much cheaper and lighter than chemical based reactions.
> 
> Even so, there is a limit to how much xenon they put into the satellites.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I thought xenon was just a pickup word car salesmen use, next time I will seriously consider a car with xenon, I have tried to find a car that can get me excited for a long time


----------



## Hutchinshouse

[YOUTUBEHD][/YOUTUBEHD]


Tom Robertson said:


> The solar power engine requires something to produce thrust. The Boeing xips thrusters use electricity (from the solar panels) to heat xenon to provide that thrust. Much cheaper and lighter than chemical based reactions.
> 
> Even so, there is a limit to how much xenon they put into the satellites.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Could D12 drift using this? :lol:


----------



## Gocanes

Doerner said:


> Forgive me if this sounds silly, but since I don't know the answer, I'll just ask. Couldn't satellites use some sort of solar power 'engine' to move when needed? Other than for emergencies, I don't see why you'd need fuel up there.


I'm not a rocket scientist but I think my understanding is correct. In order to move around in space you have to propel mass in the opposite direction that you want to move. Basically, you need to carry a propellant on board. The XIPS system uses solar energy to accelerate the propellant instead of a chemical reaction.


----------



## Newshawk

OK, so on Monday, April 26, we all need to go out on our front lawns, look up at the sky and chant, "Move that Satellite! Move that satellite!"


----------



## Groundhog45

Hutchinshouse said:


> [YOUTUBEHD][/YOUTUBEHD]
> 
> Could D12 drift using this? :lol:


It worked for Wall-E. :lol:

Thanks again, *Sixto.*


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> Have you taken any classes in orbital mechanics?


Well if you're going to sink to ad hominem you'll have to find someone else to discuss it with.

Best wishes on D12 reaching where it needs to be to be useful.


----------



## jsg

Have we heard anything about new LNB's for use with the BSS part of the satellite? (or any more about DirecTV's plans for those spotbeams, for that matter?)


----------



## Jeremy W

jsg said:


> Have we heard anything about new LNB's for use with the BSS part of the satellite? (or any more about DirecTV's plans for those spotbeams, for that matter?)


Not yet.


----------



## Beerstalker

Isn't most of the confusion here being caused by people confusing angular velocity and linear velocity. I would think that the angular velocity would have to decrease in order for the drift to happen, but the linear velocity would have to increase to change the altitude of orbit. Then when they bring the satellite's orbit back down the linear velocity would decrease, but the angular velocity would increase.

Been a while since my last physics class so I may be mixed up here though.


----------



## P Smith

James Long said:


> Hmmm ...
> Height above equator: 35,785 km (22,236 miles)
> Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)
> 
> 360 degree orbit is 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
> 27 degree change in position is x/360*27 = 2,683.875 km (12,343.65 miles)
> / 20 days = 134.19375 km (617.1825 miles) per day
> / 24 hours = 5.59140625 km (25.7159375 miles) per hour
> 
> Relative to the orbital velocity at geostationary. As noted before, the satellite will be traveling the same speed through space, just taking a longer path.
> 
> If you want to remain geostationary you will need to increase speed ... but no one here wants D12 to remain geostationary until it reaches 103.


That's right up to the moment ( the 35,786 km is above sea level - my bad )
_27 degree change in position is x/360*27 = 2,683.875 km (12,343.65 miles)_
should be 264,869 km / 13.3 = 19,915 km [360/27 = 13.3]
/ 20 days = 996 km/day
/ 24 hrs = 41 km/h or 25.5 mph

Raising or lower orbit for 50-100 km (for clockwise/counterclockwise drift) will not change the DRIFTING speed too much ( as 100/42,000 ~0.002 ).


----------



## SuperZ06

James Long said:


> The orbit is further than the circumference of the earth due to the height above the earth's service.
> 
> Orbit radius: 42,155 km (26,194 miles)
> Orbit circumference: 264,869 km (164,582 miles)
> Orbital velocity: 11,066 km/hr= 3.07 km/sec (6,876 miles/hr)
> (And that is when it is "standing still" geostationary.)
> 
> Give the satellite the same forward velocity in a higher orbit (more distance around the globe) and it will "move" west.
> (Meanwhile E14 will move to a lower orbit - less distance around the globe - to move east.)


*
Question:

If the radius of the earth at the equator is 3963 miles, how is the orbit radius 26,194 miles ? :eek2:
Are you telling me that the SAT is 22231 miles above the earth ??! :nono2:
The distance to the moon is approx. 238,857 miles, so one orbit of the SAT is 2/3 of the way to the moon ?!! :lol:

*

*My bad !
My calculator had a low battery ! :lol:
Ignore my post.*


----------



## P Smith

SuperZ06 said:


> *
> Question:
> 
> If the radius of the earth at the equator is 3963 miles, how is the orbit radius be 26,194 miles ? :eek2:
> Are you telling me that the SAT is 22231 miles above the earth ??! :nono2:
> The distance to the moon is approx. 238,857 miles, so one orbit of the SAT is 2/3 of the way to the moon ?!! :lol:
> 
> *


Oh boy - I thought I did huge mistake, but you ? 238,857/22,231 ~ 10 times !


----------



## SuperZ06

P Smith said:


> Oh boy - I thought I did huge mistake, but you ? 238,857/22,231 ~ 10 times !


*I was using the orbit circumference for that figure.

Ignore my post.
*


----------



## P Smith

Ah, I got it.


----------



## cartrivision

James Long said:


> Give the satellite the same forward velocity in a higher orbit (more distance around the globe) and it will "move" west.





James Long said:


> Relative to the orbital velocity at geostationary. As noted before, the satellite will be traveling the same speed through space, just taking a longer path.
> 
> If you want to remain geostationary you will need to increase speed ... but no one here wants D12 to remain geostationary until it reaches 103.


You clearly don't even understand the basic principals that govern orbiting satellites. The velocity of the satellite dictates the height of it's orbit. It is absolutely impossible under the laws of physics to as you suggest "Give the satellite the same forward velocity in a higher orbit"... or also do as you suggested "remain geostationary at a higher altitude by increasing the velocity of the satellite".

Your suggestion that a satellite can be made to be geostationary at an altitude that is something other than ~36km as long as you just increase (or decrease) the speed of the satellite so that the satellite's orbital period matched the earth's rotational period makes no sense and is simply not true. If it was true then every geostationary satellite would not be the exact same altitude of ~36km. There is only one altitude and velocity at which a satellite will be geostationary. If the satellite is any higher in altitude, then it's velocity is also higher.... it can't possibly be the same velocity as you suggest.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> Have you taken any classes in orbital mechanics? My explanation is perfectly correct and accurate. Here's a pretty good run-down (it summarizes about a semester of undergraduate material without the annoying homework, final exams and crusty professor).
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm
> 
> 
> 
> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you're going to sink to ad hominem you'll have to find someone else to discuss it with.
Click to expand...

LameLefty was not making an ad hominem attack. He was simply stating that your "understanding" of how things work is completely contradictory to the very basic principals that govern orbital mechanics, and what you took as an attack was actually a rhetorical question... since you obviously don't even know and understand "the basics".


----------



## cebbigh

Ah, after a long hiatus we are back to intelligent discourse. These are the best of times. 

Salute to Sixto for keeping us up to date.


----------



## Jon J

LameLefty said:


> I still have yet to figure out why people who aren't subscribers of a service still hang out in forums dedicated to a competing service. It's one thing to ask questions and provide information in a neutral tone. It's quite another to post off-topic or negative-toned comments disguised with emoticons.
> 
> I just don't see the attraction. I think I may have posted twice in a Dish forum, ever.


There seems to be a mod doing exactly this.


----------



## cebbigh

LameLefty said:


> Have you taken any classes in orbital mechanics? My explanation is perfectly correct and accurate. Here's a pretty good run-down (it summarizes about a semester of undergraduate material without the annoying homework, final exams and crusty professor).
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm


Good reading by the way. I'd suggest those of us that aren't up to speed on orbital mechanics (there really is no shame in it if you aren't) spend some time reviewing it. It would certainly make things more interesting once the move begins to have a basic understanding of what is going on.


----------



## jacmyoung

cartrivision said:


> ...Your suggestion that a satellite can be made to be geostationary at an altitude that is something other than ~36km as long as you just increase (or decrease) the speed of the satellite so that the satellite's orbital period matched the earth's rotational period makes no sense and is simply not true...


I could be wrong but I don't think that was what he was saying. He was saying if you want to "drift" the sat, which means making it not geostationary, then you need to raise or lower its orbit. Raise the orbit the sat "drifts" west, lower the orbit the sat "drifts" east? However during the "drift", according to P. Smith's correction, the velocity of the sat almost does not change?

It is all relative, at the same velocity, if the sat's orbit is changed from its geostationary orbit, either lower or higher, its position relative to a fixed location on the earth surface changes, because earth surface moves at a constant speed.

I guess we just have no idea how lucky we are as living beings on this planet earth of ours. If the earth behaves anything like us, unpredictable in any way, we'd have no luxury arguing with one another like we do here.


----------



## I WANT MORE

VeniceDre said:


> What is this "Drift" thing?... And why is important?
> 
> 
> 
> I've been watching this thread from the sidelines... cracking up.
> 
> There should be a new definition for *"Insanity"*:
> 
> "The definition of insanity is posting the same thing over and over again and expecting D12 to drift".
> 
> :lol:


The Satellite has to move from 76 to 103 there's two ways to do it, they could fire up the on board rockets and power it to its destined slot, but a satellite only has so much fuel on board and to do so would be to extremely shorten its life (the fuel is there to occasionally move the satellite back into position when it gradually floats out of the spot in space that it's supposed to reside

Now if you think that at its current positon it rotates the earth every 23hrs 56min's which keeps it geostationary. If they use a tiny bit of fuel to move it just out of the geostationary spot then it will orbit the earth slower than the earth rotates and so it will slowly drift from 76 to 103 and then when it gets to 103 they'll use a bit more rocket fuel to put it back into the geostationary spot

The slower it revolves around the earth the quicker it'll move to 103 but then requires more fuel to move it further away (and then back) to the geostationary belt

(though I am thinking of Newtonian physics here where an object continues to move until it meets an opposing force so I guess it requires as much fuel to travel 1000 miles as it does 10,000 miles) I borrowed this explanation.


----------



## bobnielsen

jacmyoung said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think that was what he was saying. He was saying if you want to "drift" the sat, which means making it not geostationary, then you need to raise or lower its orbit. Raise the orbit the sat "drifts" west, lower the orbit the sat "drifts" east? However during the "drift", according to P. Smith's correction, the velocity of the sat almost does not change?
> 
> It is all relative, at the same velocity, if the sat's orbit is changed from its geostationary orbit, either lower or higher, its position relative to a fixed location on the earth surface changes, because earth surface moves at a constant speed.
> 
> I guess we just have no idea how lucky we are as living beings on this planet earth of ours. If the earth behaves anything like us, unpredictable in any way, we'd have no luxury arguing with one another like we do here.


Not quite. In order to change to a higher orbit, the velocity *must* change and the satellite must be accelerated. Its actual velocity will be greater than when it is at the GSO altitude, but its angular velocity will be less and it will appear to drift west. The orbital mechanics paper referenced by LameLefty explains it all very well.

Newton's (and Kepler's) equations *will* be satisfied in all cases.


----------



## jacmyoung

bobnielsen said:


> Not quite. In order to change to a higher orbit, the velocity *must* change and the satellite must be accelerated. Its actual velocity will be greater than when it is at the GSO altitude, but its angular velocity will be less and it will appear to drift west. The orbital mechanics paper referenced by LameLefty explains it all very well.


If I understand it correctly, the velocity we have been talking about is not the absolute velocity in space, rather relative velocity traveling mi/hr in the direction of the orbit, i.e. not "angle velocity" nor absolute velocity.

If so, then such relative velocity should not change much if any, as P. Smith pointed out. Because at a higher orbit, the distance alone the path of the orbit to complete one cycle increases, therefore at the same relative velocity traveling on that longer path, the sat appears "slowing down" therefore "moving" west when viewed from that stationary location on the surface of the earth.



> Newton's equations *will* be satisfied in all cases.


I thought Newton is no longer chic, relativity is? As an example, clocks on the goesats must be adjusted, they do not run at the same speed as clocks on earth, else the time on the geosats will not match the time on earth, it is all relative, I am sure Newton is laughing at this.


----------



## Sixto

Update #163 - similar (but it is at the outer edge).


----------



## juan ellitinez

So has the satellite started to move yet?


----------



## leww37334

... here we go... (with apologies to the bud light folks)


----------



## DaveC27

jacmyoung said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think that was what he was saying. He was saying if you want to "drift" the sat, which means making it not geostationary, then you need to raise or lower its orbit. Raise the orbit the sat "drifts" west, lower the orbit the sat "drifts" east? However during the "drift", according to P. Smith's correction, the velocity of the sat almost does not change?
> 
> It is all relative, at the same velocity, if the sat's orbit is changed from its geostationary orbit, either lower or higher, its position relative to a fixed location on the earth surface changes, because earth surface moves at a constant speed.
> 
> I guess we just have no idea how lucky we are as living beings on this planet earth of ours. If the earth behaves anything like us, unpredictable in any way, we'd have no luxury arguing with one another like we do here.


Think of a rock at the end of a string spun over your head, in order for the far end of the string to complete the revolutiion at the same time as the end closer to the hand it needs to move faster as its circumference is so much larger than a knot at the halfway point or the end nearest the hand


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> That's right up to the moment ( the 35,786 km is above sea level - my bad )
> _27 degree change in position is x/360*27 = 2,683.875 km (12,343.65 miles)_
> should be 264,869 km / 13.3 = 19,915 km [360/27 = 13.3]
> / 20 days = 996 km/day
> / 24 hrs = 41 km/h or 25.5 mph


Thanks. I had the miles side right (with a difference in rounding by doing x/360*27 instead of doing 360/27=13.3 rounded). I cannot recreate how I messed up the km calculation.


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> Update #163 - similar (but it is at the outer edge).


I have two questions for you Sixto.

1. I'm not a rocket scientist, so am not sure what you mean "at the outer edge". All of the figures on update 163 look similar to numbers from some earlier listings. I don't know how to interpret them though.

2. I know you have alluded to this before, but since the ground control authorizations only go until May 7, should we be looking for an extension of those before the drift. In other words, from your past experience would they start the drift without authorizations for the entire thing. This assumes a 20 day drift which would not be done by May 7.

Thanks in advance for any response you can give.


----------



## P Smith

D12 does keep steady in a 'box' at 76W.


----------



## jacmyoung

DaveC27 said:


> Think of a rock at the end of a string spun over your head, in order for the far end of the string to complete the revolutiion at the same time as the end closer to the hand it needs to move faster as its circumference is so much larger than a knot at the halfway point or the end nearest the hand


You know what, I think I did make a mistake. The velocity I was talking about should be the absolute speed in space, along the path of the orbit, whatever that orbit is. In other words when the sat is "drifting" to a new location to the west, its orbit is raised but not its speed in space along the path of the orbit it is traveling. The higher the orbit, the longer the circumference, i.e. the distance the sat will have to travel to complete a whole cycle of the orbit, as such from a fixed location on the surface of the earth, the sat is moving west, until such time the new location is reached, the sat orbit is lowered to the geostationary orbit again, at that point, with the same velocity in space the sat is traveling along the path of the geostationary orbit, the sat again appears stationary from that fixed earth location.

If they want to move the sat faster, they will have to shoot the sat to a much higher orbit, then bring it back from that much higher orbit later, which will consume more fuel.


----------



## Sixto

Lt Disher said:


> I have two questions for you Sixto.
> 
> 1. I'm not a rocket scientist, so am not sure what you mean "at the outer edge". All of the figures on update 163 look similar to numbers from some earlier listings. I don't know how to interpret them though.
> 
> 2. I know you have alluded to this before, but since the ground control authorizations only go until May 7, should we be looking for an extension of those before the drift. In other words, from your past experience would they start the drift without authorizations for the entire thing. This assumes a 20 day drift which would not be done by May 7.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any response you can give.


Yep, was just referring to the 76.05W (long), .05S (lat), .07 (inc). All at their highest values, which really doesn't mean much, but figured may be worth noting. Raising the orbit will be the key change.

Relative to whether they file to extend the drift earth station communication past 5/7 before the drift starts, they may, but not sure it's required. Or maybe they're planning a quicker drift now.

We'll see ...


----------



## James Long

DaveC27 said:


> Think of a rock at the end of a string spun over your head, in order for the far end of the string to complete the revolutiion at the same time as the end closer to the hand it needs to move faster as its circumference is so much larger than a knot at the halfway point or the end nearest the hand


I'd rather think of concentric circles painted on a parking lot.

Draw a circle with a 20ft radius and one with a 21ft radius. Place a video camera on a motorized turntable in the center with the ability to make one revolution every 84.0338 seconds. Now get an accurate speedometer on a wheel and walk around the 20ft radius circle at precisely 2 mph. Calibrate the exact rotation of the turntable so you remain in the center of the frame.

Your walk around the circle is 125.66 ft. At 2 mph you should complete the circle every 84.0338 seconds (the same speed you calibrated the turntable to turn).

While walking smoothly around the circle monitoring your speedometer for 2.000 mph drift out to the outside lane ... the 21ft circle. Continue to walk the exact 2.000 mph. Your new path is 131.95 ft (rounded). or 6.28 ft longer.

Depending on the angle of your camera lens you'll be out of frame within a few of revolutions. You are still traveling the same speed (the exact 2 mph), a person on the ground may think you slowed down because you're falling behind the camera.

There is the logic. What makes it different in space? Will a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) at a higher orbit spin out into space or fall to Earth because of some physical reason that it needs more speed to maintain any orbit (although not geostationary)? Or are we just using different points of reference for our relative speeds.

(All things are relative.)


----------



## Rob

Google has found D12

http://www.google.com/


----------



## jacmyoung

James Long said:


> I'd rather think of concentric circles painted on a parking lot.
> 
> Draw a circle with a 20ft radius and one with a 21ft radius. Place a video camera on a motorized turntable in the center with the ability to make one revolution every 84.0338 seconds. Now get an accurate speedometer on a wheel and walk around the 20ft radius circle at precisely 2 mph. Calibrate the exact rotation of the turntable so you remain in the center of the frame.
> 
> Your walk around the circle is 125.66 ft. At 2 mph you should complete the circle every 84.0338 seconds (the same speed you calibrated the turntable to turn).
> 
> While walking smoothly around the circle monitoring your speedometer for 2.000 mph drift out to the outside lane ... the 21ft circle. Continue to walk the exact 2.000 mph. Your new path is 131.95 ft (rounded). or 6.28 ft longer.
> 
> Depending on the angle of your camera lens you'll be out of frame within a few of revolutions. You are still traveling the same speed (the exact 2 mph), a person on the ground may think you slowed down because you're falling behind the camera.
> 
> There is the logic. What makes it different in space? Will a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) at a higher orbit spin out into space or fall to Earth because of some physical reason that it needs more speed to maintain any orbit (although not geostationary)? Or are we just using different points of reference for our relative speeds.
> 
> (All things are relative.)


Good visual if he can visualize it Your explanation is the same as mine. One thing is certain, his rock tied on a string spun around a person, while much more easier to visualize, is a bad example. In space term, there is only one fixed length of the string which can allow the person to fix his eyes on the rock while spuning, but in his example, the person can increas or shorten his string at any length, still manage to fix his eyes on the rock, all he needs to do is increase and decrease the speed he turns himself.

But our planet earth is stable, she does not change her turning speed, so we can survive.


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> Good visual if he can visualize it Your explanation is the same as mine. One thing is certain, his rock tied on a string spun around a person, while much more easier to visualize, is a bad example.


I wouldn't say it is a bad example. It may contain the missing piece. Think about swinging the rock at a constant rate just slow enough that it remains in a horizontal plane. Then let another few inches out on the string. Does the rock remain in a horizontal plane or does it need to spin faster to maintain a plane?

The speed the rock is moving is irrelevant to the center. We're only spinning the rock to make it move. Similar to running around in a perfect circle with a rock in our hands. It is just easier to spin a rock (and it introduces the idea of gravity pulling that rock to the center).


----------



## P Smith

Rob said:


> Google has found D12
> 
> http://www.google.com/


Really ? It is a Hubble, btw.


----------



## Rob

P Smith said:


> Really ? It is a Hubble, btw.


Technicallity. :hurah:


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> Really ? It is a Hubble, btw.


Better Hubble than hobbled.


----------



## LameLefty

The velocity through space is NOT constant if you change the altitude either way. To lower the orbit, you must decrease the velocity, to raise the orbit you must increase it, period. There IS no other explanation.


----------



## jacmyoung

James Long said:


> I wouldn't say it is a bad example. It may contain the missing piece. Think about swinging the rock at a constant rate just slow enough that it remains in a horizontal plane. Then let another few inches out on the string. Does the rock remain in a horizontal plane or does it need to spin faster to maintain a plane?


That was what I was saying, instead of as he said, having the rock "spun over your head", we need to think about having the rock spun on a level plane with you holding the string. To compare to our sat situation then, the question is not that if the string length is changed, whether the rock will drop down or up, but whether your eyes can still be fixed onto the rock while you spin with the rock. You can if you increase or decrease your speed of spin.

But the earth can't, she does not change its speed of spin, so his example is bad.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> The velocity through space is NOT constant if you change the altitude either way. To lower the orbit, you must decrease the velocity, to raise the orbit you must increase it, period. There IS no other explanation.


That is because your velocity is a relative velocity, maybe relative to another sat in the geosationary orbit. But both sats are traveling at the same speed in space along the path of their own orbits. The one that is in the higher orbit will move to the west ("fall behind") from the view point of the sat on the lower orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

Listen up: it's really very simple in concept.

An object in orbit around a body will be traveling at a distance from the center of mass of that body based SOLELY upon the speed of the object and mass of the two bodies (but the mass of the satellite is negligible compared to the mass of the Earth and can be ignored here). Therefore, with the mass of the Earth essentially fixed, the ONLY thing that determines the altitude of the orbit is the velocity of the satellite.

Now, as the altitude of the orbit increases, the period (that is, the length of time necessary for the object to complete one complete orbit) increases, because the length of the orbit (circumference, if the orbit is essentially circular) increases. At a certain altitude known as GSO, the period of the orbit matches the rotational rate of the Earth precisely (23 hrs 56 min 4 sec, more or less). A satellite at GSO will thus appear to remain fixed in space above the Earth, provided the orbit is coplanar with the equator (e.g., inclination at or very close to 0º).

Now, if one increases the velocity of that satellite, the altitude will also increase. The period will increase to something greater than the length of one day. The satellite will thus appear to drift westwards in the sky as the Earth rotates a bit faster than the period of the satellite. Conversely, if a satellite is slowed down a bit, the altitude will decrease as will the length of the orbital period, thus making the satellite appear to drift eastward relative to the surface of the Earth.


----------



## wmb

James Long said:


> I wouldn't say it is a bad example. It may contain the missing piece. Think about swinging the rock at a constant rate just slow enough that it remains in a horizontal plane. Then let another few inches out on the string. Does the rock remain in a horizontal plane or does it need to spin faster to maintain a plane?
> 
> The speed the rock is moving is irrelevant to the center. We're only spinning the rock to make it move. Similar to running around in a perfect circle with a rock in our hands. It is just easier to spin a rock (and it introduces the idea of gravity pulling that rock to the center).


No, not the same... the reason the rock drops it that gravity is acting perpendicular to the plane of the orbit of the rock. A satellite does not have similar significant external force acting on it. If you construct a free body diagram for a rock being swung on a string, the force that the string applies to the rock needs to balance the centripital force and offset gravity.

Slowing the rock down will decrease the applied centripital force, and it will drop the rock to a lower height. The tangent of the angle of the string to the ground will be the ratio of the force of gravity to the applied centripital force.

So, as we spin the rock faster, we are increasing the centripal force, reducing the ratio of the force of gravity (a constant) to the centripital force. This reduces the tangent of the angle between the string and the ground, which raises the height of the rock.

So, whatever you do, the rock will move in a horizontal plane. It will just be a lower horizontal plane as you slow it down.


----------



## wmb

Time to hopefully clear up a couple of things... Tryng to keep this more conceptual than quantitative...

Angular velocity is the angle that the satellite moves during a period of times. So, since the orbit is circular, the angular velocity is degrees per time. In the case of a satellite at GSO, the angular velocity would be 2*pi radians (or 360 degrees) per sidereal day.

A sidereal day is the amount of time it takes for the earth to revolve once relative to a fixed location, 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.091 seconds, see wikipedia for more details... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sideral_day

Now, to convert this to how much distance is covered per time... First, its not linear velocity since the satellite is moving along a curve. Velocity is a vector quantity, which means it tells both how fast and which way an object is moving. Speed would be a better term since speed is the magnitude of the velocity vector. Since the satellite is moving in a circle, its constantly changing direction, hence velocity. The change in direction is an acceleration caused by the force of gravity between earth and the satellite... thats why some say its falling... its constantly accelerating towards the center of the earth based on gravity, just like an object falling off a shelf.

So, how much distance is covered per time... the length of the orbit per day. The length is the circumference of the circle that the orbit represents. In this case, the radius of the circle (distance from the center of the earth to the satellte) is 26,199 miles. So the distance covered each sidereal day is 2*pi*26,199 miles = 164,614 miles per day, or about 6859 miles per hour... a little over 110 miles per minute.

As far as the relationship between the speed and altitude... there is a functional relationship between the two. If you want a specific velocity, such as one revolution per day, you can calculate the height you would need. Likewise, if you know how high you want to go, you can calculate the speed you need to go to get there.

Last thing, Kepler's second law states that "The line joining a planet and the Sun sweeps out equal areas during equal intervals of time" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Second_law One way to think about this is that the orbit is a pie (pizza?). Over each equal time interval, the area of the piece of pizza pie that is cut out is the same. So, at perigee, when it is closer to earth, the angular velocity (number of degrees per time) is greater than at apogee, where it is furthest from earth. In other words, the piece of pie is short and wide when a satellite is closer to earth, and long and skinny when it is far from earth. The area of the wedge is the same in both cases.

So, in order to move D12 west, you have to slow it down, which means making the orbit higher. But, since the velocity is being changed, the satellite is being accelerated, even though the acceleration is negative, speed decreased.


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> So, in order to move D12 west, you have to slow it down, which means making the orbit higher. But, since the velocity is being changed, the satellite is being accelerated, even though the acceleration is negative, speed decreased.


You have to slow it down RELATIVE TO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, not in an absolute sense. The velocity of the orbit is actually increased; the orbital altitude increases; the orbital period increases; the satellite drifts westward.


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> You have to slow it down RELATIVE TO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, not in an absolute sense. The velocity of the orbit is actually increased; the orbital altitude increases; the orbital period increases; the satellite drifts westward.


As long as we agree it goes up, I'm fine with whatever coordinate system you would like to use! I'm not a scientist, I'm an engineer...


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> As long as we agree it goes up, I'm fine with whatever coordinate system you would like to use! I'm not a scientist, I'm an engineer...


I'm all about the Right-hand Rule.  (Undergraduate degree is in Aerospace Engineering).


----------



## ejjames

Talk of "Angular Velocity" AND "Linear Velocity" reminds me of the old laser disc days.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> You have to slow it down RELATIVE TO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, not in an absolute sense.


Great, now I think we agree, the only confusion on my part is I should have said the "speed" does not change, not the "velocity" does not change. See it is not so hard to put it in layman's term to explain it, isn't it?

I did use the word "speed" several times, the mistake I made was the use of the term "velocity", should have used "speed" all the time. In other words, during all these changes, the distance the sat travels relative to the time it takes for it to travel such distance, does not have to change. I think I was trying to make this point but used the wrong word.

But of course to again try to confuse things, we also know when an object travels in very high speed, the time on the object also changes, so we will never be able to figure out what is what


----------



## jacmyoung

I will say this also, the problem with many smart scientists is, they do not know what kind of audience they are speaking to. When you are trying to explain to the J6P world, you need to be able to "lower" yourself to the level of the average J6Ps, speaking in terms they can understand, else you will always feel that you are talking to a brick wall.

It is that brick wall you must first break down, else you have no future


----------



## brett_the_bomb

wow, cant say that i expected such and involved few pages of answers and arguements all spawned from "hey lefty how fast do they move a sat?" lol but i do feel like my understanding of space physics is increasing and my brain is hurting... but i do have one more question while im on today. 

why is 36 km the only place that works for gso? i caught the part about the earths mass being so great that the mass of the sat is negligible, what i dont understand is why gso wouldnt work at more or less than 36km. Is it something to do with earths gravitational pull actually causing the rotation or orbit of "satelites" and so 36km happens to be the sweet spot where the speed of the pull of the rotation of earth matches and creates gso? sorry if that is completely out in left field, its the best assumption i could make give the discussion. 

another tangent question might be this, If an object were enough bigger than a sat, ie the moon, then its gso point would have a different elevation right?


----------



## P Smith

a) GSO = 35786 km altitude and 0 degree inclination is the place for an object with any mass ( 1g or 6 tons);
b) it's where speed of the object and rotation of Earth in sync - see Wiki for Clark Belt;
c) Moon's mass object at GSO? Never happen - Earth gravitation will force it to fall;



brett_the_bomb said:


> wow, cant say that i expected such and involved few pages of answers and arguements all spawned from "hey lefty how fast do they move a sat?" lol but i do feel like my understanding of space physics is increasing and my brain is hurting... but i do have one more question while im on today.
> 
> why is 36 km the only place that works for gso? i caught the part about the earths mass being so great that the mass of the sat is negligible, what i dont understand is why gso wouldnt work at more or less than 36km. Is it something to do with earths gravitational pull actually causing the rotation or orbit of "satelites" and so 36km happens to be the sweet spot where the speed of the pull of the rotation of earth matches and creates gso? sorry if that is completely out in left field, its the best assumption i could make give the discussion.
> 
> another tangent question might be this, If an object were enough bigger than a sat, ie the moon, then its gso point would have a different elevation right?


----------



## jacmyoung

brett_the_bomb said:


> wow, cant say that i expected such and involved few pages of answers and arguements all spawned from "hey lefty how fast do they move a sat?" lol but i do feel like my understanding of space physics is increasing and my brain is hurting... but i do have one more question while im on today.
> 
> why is 36 km the only place that works for gso? i caught the part about the earths mass being so great that the mass of the sat is negligible, what i dont understand is why gso wouldnt work at more or less than 36km. Is it something to do with earths gravitational pull actually causing the rotation or orbit of "satelites" and so 36km happens to be the sweet spot where the speed of the pull of the rotation of earth matches and creates gso? sorry if that is completely out in left field, its the best assumption i could make give the discussion.
> 
> another tangent question might be this, If an object were enough bigger than a sat, ie the moon, then its gso point would have a different elevation right?


Let me try to answer it without being a scientist, any scientists feel free to correct me, in layman's terms if possible

How close the geo orbit is to the earth is dependent on how fast the earth rotates. If the earth rotates faster (i.e. one day is less than 24 hours), the geo orbit will be less than 36,000 km, i.e. closer to the earth. So is the opposite true.

For the moon to orbit geostationarily, it will have to be at 36,000 km too, but it will crash into earth due to much higher gravitational pull earth asserts on it. So the moon must be at such a distance from the earth that the gravitational pull from the earth is small enough to just cancel out the centrifugal force asserted on moon while it circles around the earth. But then at such a distance from the earth, the moon can not be geostationary with the earth.

None of the geostationary sats can actually be geostationary on their own, they need small thrusts from time to time to keep them "in the boxes". Otherwise they can crash into earth.


----------



## P Smith

Nope - will not crash.



> Due to luni-solar perturbations and the ellipticity of the Earth equator, an object placed in a GEO without any station-keeping would not stay there. It would start building up inclination at an initial rate of about 0.85 degrees per year. After 26.5 years the object would have an inclination of 15 degrees, decreasing back to zero after another 26.5 years.


See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_stationkeeping


----------



## jacmyoung

P Smith said:


> Nope - will not crash.
> 
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_stationkeeping


Thank you for the correction, even though not so much in layman's terms, if I understand you correctly, if a geosat is left on its own in orbit, it will just bounce back and forth "in a very very large box"?


----------



## P Smith

Yep. Huge.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Yep. Huge.


 knocking chunks off of nearby satellites as it does so?


----------



## P Smith

Should not - it will move up/down 15 degree but still targeting to same GSO slot, so neighbors will see it as taking side walk.


----------



## DirectMan

I am interested in how D* will aim the spotbeams when D12 arrives at 103. Is there a motor on each transponder that can aim the spotbeam, or are they already preset at the "factory" by Boeing. (I doubt the preset option because how would they have tested the beam direction at 76?). Is there a device on the transponder that can increase or decrease the beam size separate from any power controls?


----------



## P Smith

That's trade secrets/patents area - we will not knows that without someone will violate his contract.


----------



## jacmyoung

P Smith said:



> Should not - it will move up/down 15 degree but still targeting to same GSO slot, so neighbors will see it as taking side walk.


Of course even if it may run into one of its close neighbors, it can only happen after a little over 50 years, by that time, we may be glad they will knock each other out


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Of course even if it may run into one of its close neighbors, it can only happen after a little over 50 years, by that time, we may be glad they will knock each other out


Nope, we won't. It'd just create space junk and render big chunks of the GSO belt unusable. It's far better to do what the FCC and international agreement requires, which is to boost the satellite up to an indefinitely-stable orbit a few hundred kilometers higher than GSO: the "graveyard orbit." Dead satellites up there will stay out of the way for thousands of years.


----------



## wmb

brett_the_bomb said:


> Is it something to do with earths gravitational pull actually causing the rotation or orbit of "satelites" and so 36km happens to be the sweet spot where the speed of the pull of the rotation of earth matches and creates gso? sorry if that is completely out in left field, its the best assumption i could make give the discussion.
> 
> another tangent question might be this, If an object were enough bigger than a sat, ie the moon, then its gso point would have a different elevation right?


I cut it down a bit because your first sentence is actually a good way to think of it. If we consier the rock on the string... The force acting along the string is caused by gravity, and is equal to the force required to change the velocity - which in this case is the direction of the movement of the satellite, so Force due to gravity equals the centripital forces or Fg = Fc.

The angular velocity, omega (ω) is 2π/day.

Fg = (mass) times (gravity acceleration - g)
Fc = (mass) times (omega)squared times the radius.

mass factors out (its on both sides of the equation) so:

g = r times omega squared.

however, g is dependent on r, so its not quite this clean. However, since the relationship between g and r is know and r is constant its pretty easy to solve for the radius that makes omega equal 1 day.

Short answer is 36,000 km is a sweet spot for earth. different planets, different sweet spots for 2 reasons... 1. different mass, which affects g, and 2. different lengths of days. So, if you know the length of the day and the mass of the planet, you can calculate the sweet spot for any planet.

On the tangential question... the satellite doesn't really orbit the earth, they orbt each other. If you have two objects of equal mass, they will orbit about thier center of mass, half way between them. So, if you were to look at them from a outside point, they will both be moving. This would be a good picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Orbit5.gif

I am not sure that the longitude that points to the other body would be constant, so not geosynchronous, but I do not have a proof. That said, it could be that the objects rotate in such a way that the object is at the same location each day (does that make sense)? Like a tundra orbit being over the same location every day.


----------



## clevfandad

All this is exactly why I dropped out of Physics. Just give me my remote, please.


----------



## merchione

clevfandad said:


> All this is exactly why I dropped out of Physics. Just give me my remote, please.


:lol: well said


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> Nope, we won't. It'd just create space junk and render big chunks of the GSO belt unusable. It's far better to do what the FCC and international agreement requires, which is to boost the satellite up to an indefinitely-stable orbit a few hundred kilometers higher than GSO: the "graveyard orbit." Dead satellites up there will stay out of the way for thousands of years.


Yeah right, that is all our government wants us to believe, like when we pile up trillions of debt It is the best thing for us all, and we believe so too you know, how we keep up with our own entertainment. But wait till 50 years from now our younger generations comes into power, they will junk us all, there will be "graveyards" wherever we are, no orbit for us to hide


----------



## AllenE

Slightly adrift from the precise orbital mechanics analysis being discussed , a friend of mine is a scientist at NASA Ames in Mt. View, CA. We often get in discussions similar to what is happening here, because I don't often get a chance to exercise the physics I learned in undergraduate school. During the course of one of these discussions he gave the best explaination of freefall and orbit I have ever heard.

He told me to toss him my keys from about 10 ft away. I did, he caught them and said "the path the keys took from you to me was an arc created by gravity affecting the flight path. Orbit is when you throw the keys hard enough that the resulting arc misses the earth and continues indefinitely, with the keys continually falling around the earth".


----------



## jacmyoung

clevfandad said:


> All this is exactly why I dropped out of Physics. Just give me my remote, please.


Exactly my point, if the scientist cannot lay it out for your J6P before the beer is down, the science has no future


----------



## jacmyoung

AllenE said:


> ... Orbit is when you through the keys hard enough that the resulting arc misses the earth and continues indefinitely, with the keys continually falling around the earth.


That explains why I cannot find my keys most of the time, they must not be in geostationary positions.


----------



## AllenE

:lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

I was just wondering, what time zone does FCC use for in orbit spacecraft? i.e. if its UTC, D12 could start drifting at 7 PM Eastern today!


----------



## cartrivision

James Long said:


> I'd rather think of concentric circles painted on a parking lot.
> 
> Draw a circle with a 20ft radius and one with a 21ft radius. Place a video camera on a motorized turntable in the center with the ability to make one revolution every 84.0338 seconds. Now get an accurate speedometer on a wheel and walk around the 20ft radius circle at precisely 2 mph. Calibrate the exact rotation of the turntable so you remain in the center of the frame.
> 
> Your walk around the circle is 125.66 ft. At 2 mph you should complete the circle every 84.0338 seconds (the same speed you calibrated the turntable to turn).
> 
> While walking smoothly around the circle monitoring your speedometer for 2.000 mph drift out to the outside lane ... the 21ft circle. Continue to walk the exact 2.000 mph. Your new path is 131.95 ft (rounded). or 6.28 ft longer.
> 
> Depending on the angle of your camera lens you'll be out of frame within a few of revolutions. You are still traveling the same speed (the exact 2 mph), a person on the ground may think you slowed down because you're falling behind the camera.
> 
> There is the logic. What makes it different in space? Will a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) at a higher orbit spin out into space or fall to Earth because of some physical reason that it needs more speed to maintain any orbit (although not geostationary)? Or are we just using different points of reference for our relative speeds.
> 
> (All things are relative.)


This is all very fine but it's an invalid analogy because it ignores the fact that the same thing can't be done with a satellite orbiting earth. There is absolutely now way that a satellite can trace a "bigger circle" (i.e. be orbiting at a higher altitude) while traveling at the same speed that it does while in geostationary orbit. It simply can't happen, and your parking lot analogy doesn't change the fact that you are 100% wrong when you say that when a satellite is placed in a higher orbit to make it drift west that it is traveling at the same speed but drifting west because it takes longer to travel along that "bigger circle". The last half of that sentence it true... it drifts west because it has to travel a greater distance, but it is actually traveling faster, not at the same speed, so what is happening is that the faster speed isn't fast enough to compensate for the greater distance that is being traveled, so the satellite drifts west even though it traveling faster.

The simple fact is that there is no way that a satellite could orbit in a circular orbit at an altitude higher that the altitude of GSO satellites while at the same time having the same velocity as satellites in GSO.

[redacted]


----------



## cartrivision

jacmyoung said:


> Great, now I think we agree, the only confusion on my part is I should have said the "speed" does not change, not the "velocity" does not change. See it is not so hard to put it in layman's term to explain it, isn't it?
> 
> I did use the word "speed" several times, the mistake I made was the use of the term "velocity", should have used "speed" all the time. In other words, during all these changes, the distance the sat travels relative to the time it takes for it to travel such distance, does not have to change. I think I was trying to make this point but used the wrong word.


The problem isn't the word being used. The problem is that what you (and James) are saying is wrong, however you word it.

Whether you call it "speed" or "velocity", the fact is that the distance the satellite travels relative to the time it takes for it to travel such distance is *increased* in order to make the satellite drift west. The reason that it drifts west is because the distance traveled increases a greater percentage than the increase of the speed.


----------



## cartrivision

DirectMan said:


> I am interested in how D* will aim the spotbeams when D12 arrives at 103. Is there a motor on each transponder that can aim the spotbeam, or are they already preset at the "factory" by Boeing. (I doubt the preset option because how would they have tested the beam direction at 76?). Is there a device on the transponder that can increase or decrease the beam size separate from any power controls?


Some of DIRECTV's replies to the entities who were arguing against the FCC allowing the testing of D12 seemed to indicate that the aim of the spotbeams are (at least somewhat) fixed, because in those documents DIRECTV was talking about having to change the orientation of the satellite in order to point the spot beams being tested towards the test ground station location.


----------



## James Long

[quote redacted]

But thanks for confirming the question that I asked in my post. "Will a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) at a higher orbit spin out into space or fall to Earth because of some physical reason that it needs more speed to maintain any orbit (although not geostationary)?" P Smith already covered the spin out of fall to aspect ... but you have offered further confirmation (after LameLefty's) that a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) won't maintain an orbit other than GSO.

To orbit higher it must go faster, to orbit lower it must go slower. There isn't a speed faster enough to hold a satellite at GSO above the nominal height (as a faster speed satellite would keep seeking a higher and longer orbit). Similarly a slower satellite would seek a lower and shorter orbit.


----------



## cartrivision

James Long said:


> But thanks for confirming the question that I asked in my post. "Will a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) at a higher orbit spin out into space or fall to Earth because of some physical reason that it needs more speed to maintain any orbit (although not geostationary)?" P Smith already covered the spin out of fall to aspect ... but you have offered further confirmation (after LameLefty's) that a satellite traveling 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr) won't maintain an orbit other than GSO.
> 
> To orbit higher it must go faster, to orbit lower it must go slower. There isn't a speed faster enough to hold a satellite at GSO above the nominal height (as a faster speed satellite would keep seeking a higher and longer orbit). Similarly a slower satellite would seek a lower and shorter orbit.


Well, at least it seems like you finally understand what several people have been trying to explain to you more than a dozen times. The fact that you received what you felt were "ad hominem attacks" is probably due to the fact that you kept insisting over and over that the satellite would still be traveling the same speed after being moved to a higher orbit... which is physically impossible.... and which was explained to you over and over again. If you keep repeating the same wrong information over and over again, the rebukes are bound to keep getting stronger and stronger, maybe even to the point where you feel attacked, but that doesn't make them ad hominem attacks.

If in response to you posting the same incorrect information multiple times, someone says something like you don't even understand the basic principals of orbital mechanics... that's a fact... not an ad hominem attack.


----------



## CockerKingdom

:backtotop


----------



## jacmyoung

cartrivision said:


> The problem isn't the word being used. The problem is that what you (and James) are saying is wrong, however you word it.
> 
> Whether you call it "speed" or "velocity", the fact is that the distance the satellite travels relative to the time it takes for it to travel such distance is *increased* in order to make the satellite drift west. The reason that it drifts west is because the distance traveled increases a greater percentage than the increase of the speed.


I don't know if you are one of the scientists here or not, but I have quotes from two scientists that seem to disagree with you that the speed is increased after the sat does to a higher orbit:



wmb said:


> ...So, in order to move D12 west, you have to slow it down, which means making the orbit higher. But, since the velocity is being changed, the satellite is being accelerated, even though the acceleration is negative, *speed decreased*.


To which the response was:



LameLefty said:


> You have to slow it down RELATIVE TO THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH, *not in an absolute sense*. The velocity of the orbit is actually increased; the orbital altitude increases; the orbital period increases; the satellite drifts westward.


First wmb contended that the higher the orbit, the slower the speed, then LameLefty corrected him, implying the speed does not really change, only the velocity increased.

Now you are saying the higher the orbit, the higher the speed must be. You see why we are confused? If our scientific community cannot agree on a very simple issue, how do you expect our J6Ps having any confidence? What happens when your average J6Ps get the run around? They *****! You can't fault us for it. A scientist on the other hand must be precise, must agree, if not, the sat can disappear for all that we know, have you ever thought about how the J6Ps may react if the sat disappears?


----------



## OlderNDirt

The last few pages of discussion using the K.I.S.S. principal for we lay-people:

With a "phftt phftt" here, a "phftt phftt" there,
Here a "phftt", there a "phftt",
everywhere a "phftt phftt".
DirecTv had a satellite. E I E I O!

Hopefully the drift can be accomplished with fewer "phftt's", conserving fuel and thereby extending the life expectancy of said satellite.

Sorry, couldn't resist...now I shall return to lurking.


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> First wmb contended that the higher the orbit, the slower the speed, then LameLefty corrected him, implying the speed does not really change, only the velocity increased.


Okay, you're being very sloppy in your terminology. "Velocity" is a term that means both a magnitude (e.g., "how fast" or simply "speed") and a direction. "Speed" is simply a short-hand term, but in our discussions it's being used interchangeably with "velocity." Since we're not doing vector calculations and what-not, it doesn't really make a difference. *They are the same thing for this type of discussion.*

To drift westward, the satellite must increase it's speed/velocity. This in turn increases the altitude of the orbit. The higher orbit results in a longer path around the Earth. The increased speed/velocity of the satellite does not completely make up for the longer path around the Earth, so length of time necessary to complete one orbit (the "period"), increases as well. Since it is now longer than one day, the satellite appears to drift westward in the sky relative to the surface of the Earth.


----------



## rrrick8

TLE 164



> DIRECTV 12
> 1 36131U 09075A 10115.14853509 -.00000258 00000-0 10000-3 0 1642
> 2 36131 0.0751 51.2468 0001386 36.8678 102.3642 1.00269780 1250


----------



## Sixto

Update #164 - similar.


----------



## spartanstew




----------



## TheRatPatrol

spartanstew said:


>


:lol: yeah, lets all along and be grateful the drift has been approved.


----------



## studlygoorite

spartanstew said:


>


LOL


----------



## houskamp

here's a simple maybe stupid question: Do they actualy have to use power to move side to side (accel/decel) for the move or do they just raise/lower it and the actual move just happens as a result of the altitude change?


----------



## brett_the_bomb

houskamp said:


> here's a simple maybe stupid question: Do they actualy have to use power to move side to side (accel/decel) for the move or do they just raise/lower it and the actual move just happens as a result of the altitude change?


from my understanding, changing the altitude of the orbit will by default make the sat move relative to us.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> Okay, you're being very sloppy in your terminology. "Velocity" is a term that means both a magnitude (e.g., "how fast" or simply "speed") and a direction. "Speed" is simply a short-hand term, but in our discussions it's being used interchangeably with "velocity." Since we're not doing vector calculations and what-not, it doesn't really make a difference. *They are the same thing for this type of discussion.*...


Of course I was sloppy, I am no scientist. I confused "velocity" and "speed" together initially, you clearly tried to correct me, telling me the two were not the same, now you are saying they are the same thing.

Just as I became clear, you turned sloppy, or at least tried to make me sloppy again It is ok for me to be sloppy, but not ok for a scientist


----------



## HoTat2

houskamp said:


> here's a simple maybe stupid question: Do they actualy have to use power to move side to side (accel/decel) for the move or do they just raise/lower it and the actual move just happens as a result of the altitude change?


AFAIK, yes it would require power (from the XIPS thrusters I assume) to actually accelerate or decelerate the satellite initially into a transfer orbit which results in a final new circular orbit above or below the Clarke belt.

This causes an apparent west or east drift respectively until the desired destination slot reaches a certain point where then the opposite acceleration or deceleration happens to inject the satellite into a temporary transfer orbit which stabilizes as circular back into the geosynchronous Clarke belt.


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Of course I was sloppy, I am no scientist. I confused "velocity" and "speed" together initially, you clearly tried to correct me, telling me the two were not the same, now you are saying they are the same thing.
> 
> Just as I became clear, you turned sloppy, or at least tried to make me sloppy again It is ok for me to be sloppy, but not ok for a scientist


Don't go and violate Wheton's Law here . . . 

YOU confused the meanings of "speed" and "velocity", and while they have two different technical meanings (actually, "speed" isn't a technically-correct word at all), in this case they can be used interchangeably. What that means is, your statement that "velocity increases but speed remains the same" is just wrong.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> Don't go and violate Wheton's Law here . . .


Please don't introduce any more laws to make me even more sloppy



> YOU confused the meanings of "speed" and "velocity", and while they have two different technical meanings (actually, "speed" isn't a technically-correct word at all),


Which two different technical meanings are they?



> in this case they can be used interchangeably.


If they have two different technical meanings, how can they technically be the same meaning?



> What that means is, your statement that "velocity increases but speed remains the same" is just wrong.


Is it ust wrong because it cannot happen this way in nature, or is it just wrong because in this particular case, the statement is wrong?


----------



## bobnielsen

houskamp said:


> here's a simple maybe stupid question: Do they actualy have to use power to move side to side (accel/decel) for the move or do they just raise/lower it and the actual move just happens as a result of the altitude change?


Yes. Since the satellite is raised or lowered by changing its velocity, there is no difference between those two descriptions. I know it may be difficult to picture what is happening, but this *is* rocket science.


----------



## Doug Brott

Glad to see civility has returned to this thread ..


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

jacmyoung said:


> Please don't introduce any more laws to make me even more sloppy


Scofflaw!


----------



## Ernie

houskamp said:


> here's a simple maybe stupid question: Do they actualy have to use power to move side to side (accel/decel) for the move or do they just raise/lower it and the actual move just happens as a result of the altitude change?


That's what makes some aspects of orbit mechanics so counter-intuitive. Its one of those "you can't have one without the other" cases.

In this thread so far, people have successfully calculated the velocity of a GSO satellite, yet, everyone seems to think that a higher orbit is faster. Yet it should be clear that this calculated speed (11066 km/hr) is slower than the speed of the ISS (27570 km/hr at a 425 km altitude). So how can this be? The point everyone seems to be missing is that you don't add velocity to raise an orbit, you add energy. Once you have added the energy to put a satellite at a higher it doesn't need to go as fast to maintain the orbit.

To make sense of that you could go back to "throwing the car keys" analogy. If you threw them fast enough (28500 km/hr) then they would fall as fast as the curvature of the Earth drops away. Do this from a high mountain or platform and you would see that the curvature of the path you need to follow isn't a severe as at the surface of the earth, and therefore, you don't need as much speed to successfully keep them from falling to the Earth. The moon only needs to go at 3636 km/hr to successfully miss the earth month after month.

As far a physically analogous systems go, a rock on a string or circles in a parking lot won't cut it. The generally accepted analogy is the rubber sheet with a bowling ball in the middle so that it sags in a parabolic-like shape. I have seem a solid version of this at science museums and such. Its the coin donation well where you let a coin start rolling and it continues to roll down the curved sides of the well. You can think of the coin as being in an orbit around the center of the well. As it loses energy due to friction (surface and air), it goes into a lower and faster orbit until down in the throat of the well it is moving at a furious rate trying to stay "in orbit". Alas, there is no Soyuz or Space Shuttle to boost its orbit, and it finally falls into the well (burns up in the atmosphere).

Hope that clears things up without adding more confusion. (BTW, this is the short explanation. I don't think the long one would help much)

Ernie


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Glad to see civility has returned to this thread ..


If anything, I think it is our scientific community that lacks civility They first try to explain it, but when we are confused by their explanations, they want us just to listen up, tell us we are just too stupid to understand. If so, why even explain it in the first place

The confusions are the result of them trying to explain it in the first place, had they kept their mouths shut, we would have been happy as clams drinking our beers and waiting for our new HD channels


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> Glad to see civility has returned to this thread ..


That's because most people have no idea what's being discussed with all this science mumbo jumbo that they can't pick an argument.


----------



## jacmyoung

Ernie said:


> That's what makes some aspects of orbit mechanics so counter-intuitive. Its one of those "you can't have one without the other" cases.
> 
> In this thread so far, people have successfully calculated the velocity of a GSO satellite, yet, everyone seems to think that a higher orbit is faster. Yet it should be clear that this calculated speed (11066 km/hr) is slower than the speed of the ISS (27570 km/hr at a 425 km altitude). So how can this be? The point everyone seems to be missing is that you don't add velocity to raise an orbit, you add energy. Once you have added the energy to put a satellite at a higher it doesn't need to go as fast to maintain the orbit.
> 
> To make sense of that you could go back to "throwing the car keys" analogy. If you threw them fast enough (28500 km/hr) then they would fall as fast as the curvature of the Earth drops away. Do this from a high mountain or platform and you would see that the curvature of the path you need to follow isn't a severe as at the surface of the earth, and therefore, you don't need as much speed to successfully keep them from falling to the Earth. The moon only needs to go at 3636 km/hr to successfully miss the earth month after month.
> 
> As far a physically analogous systems go, a rock on a string or circles in a parking lot won't cut it. The generally accepted analogy is the rubber sheet with a bowling ball in the middle so that it sags in a parabolic-like shape. I have seem a solid version of this at science museums and such. Its the coin donation well where you let a coin start rolling and it continues to roll down the curved sides of the well. You can think of the coin as being in an orbit around the center of the well. As it loses energy due to friction (surface and air), it goes into a lower and faster orbit until down in the throat of the well it is moving at a furious rate trying to stay "in orbit". Alas, there is no Soyuz or Space Shuttle to boost its orbit, and it finally falls into the well (burns up in the atmosphere).
> 
> Hope that clears things up without adding more confustion.
> 
> Ernie


So now we have a third view, that is, the higher orbit the object is in, the slower the speed it will have to move in order to circle around the earth. So who is right among our different scientists? Some say the speed should increase, some say the speed should decrease.

Meanwhile, please allow me to maintain my own sloppy view, that the speed remains the same, because if either one of your scientists has the same odds of being correct, my bet has the best odds to win, that is the law I use when I bet


----------



## vfr781rider

LameLefty said:


> To drift westward, the satellite must increase it's speed/velocity. This in turn increases the altitude of the orbit. The higher orbit results in a longer path around the Earth. The increased speed/velocity of the satellite does not completely make up for the longer path around the Earth, so length of time necessary to complete one orbit (the "period"), increases as well. Since it is now longer than one day, the satellite appears to drift westward in the sky relative to the surface of the Earth.


So, just to clarify in my mind, when they're ready to go will they increase the velocity in the direction it is already traveling resulting in an increase in altitude, or thrust it 'vertically' away from earth and the speed increases because of that?


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> So now we have a third view, that is, the higher orbit the object is in, the slower the speed it will have to move in order to circle around the earth. So who is right among our different scientists? Some say the speed should increase, some say the speed should decrease.
> 
> Meanwhile, please allow me to maintain my own sloppy view, that the speed remains the same, because if either one of your scientists has the same odds of being correct, my bet has the best odds to win, that is the law I use when I bet


But I think where the confusion comes in is that as I said you have to momentarily increase or decrease the velocity (accel/decel) of a satellite to move it into an elliptical transfer orbit which will eventually stabilize to a circular one at a higher or lower altitude and thereby its accompanying lower or higher velocity as a result.


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> The point everyone seems to be missing is that you don't add velocity to raise an orbit, you add energy. Once you have added the energy to put a satellite at a higher it doesn't need to go as fast to maintain the orbit.


Geez, you think after all the thousands of posts in the D10, D11 and now D12 threads I was going to try to explain the differences between kinetic energy, potential energy and total energy? No fscking way! :lol: That's why I've simply said you have to speed up (which is true in the sense that you accelerate along your velocity vector) or slow down to change the orbit. I did provide the links to a good mathematic write-up for anyone who wants to really do the math.


----------



## jacmyoung

HoTat2 said:


> But I think where the confusion comes in is that as I said you have to momentarily increase or decrease the velocity (accel/decel) of a satellite to move it into an elliptical transfer orbit which will eventually stabilize to a circular one at a higher or lower altitude and thereby its accompanying lower or higher velocity as a result.


If so the question is, during the "drift", does the sat only remain in an elliptical transfer orbit, or does it get to "settle" into a circular one at a higher or lower orbit?

If not, then during the "drift", the actual speed of the sat is not even constant, on an elliptical orbit, the speed of the object changes, am I correct?


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> Geez, you think after all the thousands of posts in the D10, D11 and now D12 threads I was going to try to explain the differences between kinetic energy, potential energy and total energy? No fscking way! :lol: That's why I've simply said you have to speed up (which is true in the sense that you accelerate along your velocity vector) or slow down to change the orbit. I did provide the links to a good mathematic write-up for anyone who wants to really do the math.


Except according to Ernie, you are wrong!

As he explained, when an object is at a higher orbit, it actually travels in slower speed.


----------



## JTAnderson

LameLefty said:


> actually, "speed" isn't a technically-correct word at all


OK, I'll bite. What is the technically correct term for the magnitude of velocity?


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> If so the question is, during the "drift", does the sat only remain in an elliptical transfer orbit, or does it get to "settle" into a circular one at a higher or lower orbit?
> 
> If not, then during the "drift", the actual speed of the sat is not even constant, on an elliptical orbit, the speed of the object changes, am I correct?


No, the "drift" process begins after the satellite settles into a new circular orbit above the Clarke belt for the case of D12 which needs a westward drift.

Here's the illustration and accompanying explanation of the "Hohmann transfer orbit" from a site LL posted sometime back which I assume DirecTV will use due to it being the most energy efficient.

Just imagine the lower orbit in the illustration as the geosynchronous or Clarke belt orbit D12 is currently in and must start out from and then eventually return to.










**The most common type of in-plane maneuver changes the size and energy of an orbit, usually from a low-altitude parking orbit to a higher-altitude mission orbit such as a geosynchronous orbit. Because the initial and final orbits do not intersect, the maneuver requires a transfer orbit. Figure 4.9 represents a Hohmann transfer orbit. In this case, the transfer orbit's ellipse is tangent to both the initial and final orbits at the transfer orbit's perigee and apogee respectively. The orbits are tangential, so the velocity vectors are collinear, and the Hohmann transfer represents the most fuel-efficient transfer between two circular, coplanar orbits. When transferring from a smaller orbit to a larger orbit, the change in velocity is applied in the direction of motion; when transferring from a larger orbit to a smaller, the change of velocity is opposite to the direction of motion.**

**The total change in velocity required for the orbit transfer is the sum of the velocity changes at perigee and apogee of the transfer ellipse. Since the velocity vectors are collinear, the velocity changes are just the differences in magnitudes of the velocities in each orbit. ... **


----------



## jeffshoaf

DirectMan said:


> I am interested in how D* will aim the spotbeams when D12 arrives at 103. Is there a motor on each transponder that can aim the spotbeam, or are they already preset at the "factory" by Boeing. (I doubt the preset option because how would they have tested the beam direction at 76?). Is there a device on the transponder that can increase or decrease the beam size separate from any power controls?


My guess (based on nothing more than thinking about it and having a background in electronics and [a long time ago] experience in terrestrial microwave communications) is that the "rough" aim is provided via the physical location of the transponder's antenna ("antenna" could be a dish or horn or some sort of aperture) relative to the sat's orientation and a "fine" aim provided electronically by focusing and aiming by using electro-magnetism to deflect the beam (sort of like how CRT TVs and monitors deflect an electron stream to provide scan and raster on the face of the CRT).


----------



## LameLefty

JTAnderson said:


> OK, I'll bite. What is the technically correct term for the magnitude of velocity?


Magnitude of the velocity vector.


----------



## HoTat2

jeffshoaf said:


> My guess (based on nothing more than thinking about it and having a background in electronics and [a long time ago] experience in terrestrial microwave communications) is that the "rough" aim is provided via the physical location of the transponder's antenna ("antenna" could be a dish or horn or some sort of aperture) relative to the sat's orientation and a "fine" aim provided electronically by focusing and aiming by using electro-magnetism to deflect the beam (sort of like how CRT TVs and monitors deflect an electron stream to provide scan and raster on the face of the CRT).


Actually from the information revealed by DirecTV in its series of official documents to the FCC for STAs and arguments/responses to Spectrum 5 and so forth, D12's (and thereby D10, and 11 as well) spotbeams are undoubtably fixed since DirecTV spoke of physically having to orient or "bias" the satellite in order to successively place each of its spotbeams over their Castle Rock, CO. (for Ka band) and Moxee, WA. (for BSS) ground stations for transponder testing.


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> Actually from the information revealed by DirecTV in its series of official documents to the FCC for STAs and arguments/responses to Spectrum 5 and so forth, D12's (and thereby D10, and 11 as well) spotbeams are undoubtably fixed since DirecTV spoke of physically having to orient or "bias" the satellite in order to successively place each of its spotbeams over their Castle Rock, CO. (for Ka band) and Moxee, WA. (for BSS) ground stations for transponder testing.


Correct. There is probably weeks or months of ground testing and alignment done pre-launch in one of the big domes on top of one of the Boeing buildings in El Segundo. SW-1 and SW-2 have phased arrays, which can be electronically steered using a large number of phase shifters.


----------



## loudo

Doug Brott said:


> Glad to see civility has returned to this thread ..


It will be more fun to follow D12 drifting, instead of this thread drifting off topic.:grin:


----------



## jacmyoung

HoTat2 said:


> No, the "drift" process begins after the satellite settles into a new circular orbit above the Clarke belt for the case of D12 which needs a westward drift...


Good. If Ernie is correct (at this point I'd like to root for Ernie the scientist more so than LameLefty the scientist) D12 in the higher "drift orbit" will travel at a lower speed than it was traveling at the "geo orbit"?

If so, the westward move will be the result of a combination of the slower traveling speed, and the greater distance it has to travel in order to circle the earth?


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> Good. If Ernie is correct (at this point I'd like to root for Ernie the scientist more so than LameLefty the scientist) D12 in the higher "drift orbit" will travel at a lower speed than it was traveling at the "geo orbit"? ...


Correct



> ... If so, the westward move will be the result of a combination of the slower traveling speed, and the greater distance it has to travel in order to circle the earth?


Correct again.

Now if we could only figure out why the stars confusingly don't behave this way. As the opposite applies to them where the further they are from the center of the galaxy the faster they travel thereby giving them all the same "angular velocity"

IOW unlike the planets and satellites (natural or manmade) the stars group and rotate about their galaxies' center like giant spokes of a wheel.

Scientist theoretically postulate the existence of something called "dark matter" to try and explain the reason for this strange phenomenon. But its only a theory with no definitive proof yet I understand.


----------



## VeniceDre

I WANT MORE said:


> The Satellite has to move from 76 to 103 there's two ways to do it, they could fire up the on board rockets and power it to its destined slot, but a satellite only has so much fuel on board and to do so would be to extremely shorten its life (the fuel is there to occasionally move the satellite back into position when it gradually floats out of the spot in space that it's supposed to reside
> 
> Now if you think that at its current positon it rotates the earth every 23hrs 56min's which keeps it geostationary. If they use a tiny bit of fuel to move it just out of the geostationary spot then it will orbit the earth slower than the earth rotates and so it will slowly drift from 76 to 103 and then when it gets to 103 they'll use a bit more rocket fuel to put it back into the geostationary spot
> 
> The slower it revolves around the earth the quicker it'll move to 103 but then requires more fuel to move it further away (and then back) to the geostationary belt
> 
> (though I am thinking of Newtonian physics here where an object continues to move until it meets an opposing force so I guess it requires as much fuel to travel 1000 miles as it does 10,000 miles) I borrowed this explanation.


I was joking but thanks anyway for the detailed explanation.


----------



## JLucPicard

Can I try this from a purely layman's viewpoint? (I'm not ANY kind of scientist, just a a DirecTV J6P sub interested in D12's progress)

To remain "in place" relative to a specific point on earth in GSO (76 degrees), the satellite has to be traveling at X. To carry out the drift, D12 has to be in a somewhat higher oribit. To achieve that higher orbit, it has to travel at X+something ('faster'). When it reaches it's "drifting orbit", it will be traveling 'faster' than it was when in GSO (X+something). However, relative to the same specific point on earth (76 degrees) it will be lagging behind the same relative position it was when traveling 'slower' in GSO, creating the "drifting" effect (moving TOWARD 103 degrees). As it approaches/arrives at the point relative to the specific point on Earth that represents 103 degrees, it will be lowered back into GSO. To achieve that lower orbit, it will have to be 'slowed down' back to the X it was traveling at before the drift manuever.

Kind of like if two runners are circling the track and enter the turn at the exact same moment, one runner can be running faster in the outside lane than the runner in the inside lane, but the runner in the inside lane appears to be 'completing' the turn faster than the runner in the outside lane.

Sound about right? Please be gentle, as I said, I'm not any kind of scientist, just an interested observer trying to understand - not trying to advance my own particular agenda. And contrary to the avatar, I really know nothing about orbital mechanics.


----------



## jacmyoung

HoTat2 said:


> ...the stars group and rotate about their galaxies' center like giant spokes of a wheel...


Are you sure about that? I have never observed my wheels getting bigger and bigger as they were driven more and more miles

On a second thought, of course stars behave differently than planets and sats, you see adults never behave the same way they force their youngsters to behave.


----------



## jacmyoung

JLucPicard said:


> Can I try this from a purely layman's viewpoint? (I'm not ANY kind of scientist, just a a DirecTV J6P sub interested in D12's progress)
> 
> To remain "in place" relative to a specific point on earth in GSO (76 degrees), the satellite has to be traveling at X. To carry out the drift, D12 has to be in a somewhat higher oribit. To achieve that higher orbit, it has to travel at X+something ('faster'). When it reaches it's "drifting orbit", it will be traveling 'faster' than it was when in GSO (X+something). However, relative to the same specific point on earth (76 degrees) it will be lagging behind the same relative position it was when traveling 'slower' in GSO, creating the "drifting" effect (moving TOWARD 103 degrees). As it approaches/arrives at the point relative to the specific point on Earth that represents 103 degrees, it will be lowered back into GSO. To achieve that lower orbit, it will have to be 'slowed down' back to the X it was traveling at before the drift manuever.
> 
> Kind of like if two runners are circling the track and enter the turn at the exact same moment, one runner can be running faster in the outside lane than the runner in the inside lane, but the runner in the inside lane appears to be 'completing' the turn faster than the runner in the outside lane.
> 
> Sound about right? Please be gentle, as I said, I'm not any kind of scientist, just an interested observer trying to understand - not trying to advance my own particular agenda. And contrary to the avatar, I really know nothing about orbital mechanics.


According to both Ernie and HoTat2, you are wrong Though we can rely on you to predict if there is going to be any more delay of the drift.


----------



## DirectMan

HoTat2 said:


> Actually from the information revealed by DirecTV in its series of official documents to the FCC for STAs and arguments/responses to Spectrum 5 and so forth, D12's (and thereby D10, and 11 as well) spotbeams are undoubtably fixed since DirecTV spoke of physically having to orient or "bias" the satellite in order to successively place each of its spotbeams over their Castle Rock, CO. (for Ka band) and Moxee, WA. (for BSS) ground stations for transponder testing.


According to the Boeing web site on the Boeing 702HP spacecraft it has 54 active and 16 spare spot beam Ka-band Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA). If the aim is preset at the factory then in theory the spares are similarly preaimed - perhaps one spare for each general spot beam target.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html#specs

It is too bad that D* was not able to employ the spares on D10 to rectify the spot beam problems they disclosed, or perhaps the spares are being employed but were insufficient to replace all the possibly faulty TWTA.

Possibly this spare capacity means that major markets like LA, NY, Chicago could have more than 2 transponders allocated to their markets, thus more than the 5 x 2 = 10 HD locals presently available. It might mean other smaller markets would be affected but it would be an interesting business case for D* to contemplate. I would weigh the large markets over the last few small markets waiting for HD locals.


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> Are you sure about that? I have never observed my wheels getting bigger and bigger as they were driven more and more miles


Well ... I guess if there was some kind of friction at the edges of a galaxy acting as a road does to a car tire, slowly chipping and destroying the stars from the outside inward it would look like a tire getting smaller over time as it rotates. 

But since the sun is approximately 1/3 away from the galaxy's edge it will soon be our sun's turn to be destroyed as well.


----------



## Tom Robertson

JLucPicard said:


> Can I try this from a purely layman's viewpoint? (I'm not ANY kind of scientist, just a a DirecTV J6P sub interested in D12's progress)
> 
> To remain "in place" relative to a specific point on earth in GSO (76 degrees), the satellite has to be traveling at X. To carry out the drift, D12 has to be in a somewhat higher oribit. To achieve that higher orbit, it has to travel at X+something ('faster'). When it reaches it's "drifting orbit", it will be traveling 'faster' than it was when in GSO. However, relative to the same specific point on earth (76 degrees) it will be lagging behind the same relative position it was when traveling 'slower' on GSO, creating the "drifting" effect (moving TOWARD 103 degrees). As it approaches/arrives at the point relative to the specific point on Earth that represents 103 degrees, it will be lowered back into GSO. To achieve that lower orbit, it will have to be 'slowed down' back to the X it was traveling at before the drift manuever.
> 
> Sound about right? Please be gentle, as I said, I'm not any kind of scientist, just an interested observer trying to understand - not trying to advance my own particular agenda. And contrary to the avatar, I really know nothing about orbital mechanics.


You're getting it and very close.

All depends on if you're going East or West. (Of course you can go East by going West all the way or vice versa.) 

Since the Sun rises on the East, sets on the West everything goes West to East. To go East, things move a bit faster. To go West, things go slower.

To stay in an orbit on the equator (we'll ignore other funky orbits for a moment) things that want to move faster accelerate and drop lower in orbit. Things that accelerate by going higher will break orbit.

Things that want to go slower climb to a slightly higher orbit.

The satellites don't "aim" for a higher orbit by firing rockets (thrusters) directly toward the earth to go higher. They fire roughly directly into their path of travel, putting on the brakes, thus slowing down and thus moving higher in orbit.

Nor do the satellites fire directly away from Earth to go lower. They fire roughly directly along their path, just like a plane or car--speeding up in their direction of travel. This drops their orbit, things move faster, and things move East.

Unlike a car or plane there isn't much to slow the satellite down in space. (There is a very small effect we can ignore.) Basically one thrust burst is needed to get things started. Then one more to reverse the drift. Truly, as has been mentioned, moving 1° is the same as moving 27°--if you're willing to wait for the drift time. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## I WANT MORE

VeniceDre said:


> I was joking but thanks anyway for the detailed explanation.


I was joking as well when I received the detailed explanation that I copied for you.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DirectMan said:


> According to the Boeing web site on the Boeing 702HP spacecraft it has 54 active and 16 spare spot beam Ka-band Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA). If the aim is preset at the factory then in theory the spares are similarly preaimed - perhaps one spare for each general spot beam target.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html#specs
> 
> It is too bad that D* was not able to employ the spares on D10 to rectify the spot beam problems they disclosed, or perhaps the spares are being employed but were insufficient to replace all the possibly faulty TWTA.
> 
> Possibly this spare capacity means that major markets like LA, NY, Chicago could have more than 2 transponders allocated to their markets, thus more than the 5 x 2 = 10 HD locals presently available. It might mean other smaller markets would be affected but it would be an interesting business case for D* to contemplate. I would weigh the large markets over the last few small markets waiting for HD locals.


The TWTAs are directed into the feedhorns via some very, very cool electronic switching gear. The feedhorns are preset and aimed toward the reflectors.

My sense is the reflectors are generally shaped in advance, then very, very slightly tweaked in space. My guess is D10 could not be tweaked exactly correctly for the planned spotbeam locations, but could service other areas "well enough."

Spotbeams that service border areas have to be pretty precise or they will spill into other countries or into other regions that are already busy--like the East Coast.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> The satellites don't "aim" for a higher orbit by firing rockets (thrusters) directly toward the earth to go higher. They fire roughly directly into their path of travel, putting on the brakes, thus slowing down and thus moving higher in orbit.
> 
> Nor do the satellites fire directly away from Earth to go lower. They fire roughly directly along their path, just like a plane or car--speeding up in their direction of travel. This drops their orbit, things move faster, and things move East.


Are you sure? LameLefty posted higher is faster a few pages back.


LameLefty said:


> To lower the orbit, you must decrease the velocity, to raise the orbit you must increase it, period. There IS no other explanation.


----------



## bobnielsen

James Long said:


> Are you sure? LameLefty posted higher is faster a few pages back.


As did I (it has been nearly 50 years since I studied any of this stuff, so I claim a "senior moment") 

However, from the reference which LameLefty posted earlier in the thread, the velocity of a satellite in orbit is given by:

v = sqrt(GM/r), where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the Earth and r is the radius of the orbit. So the velocity is inversely proportional to the square root of the orbital radius.


----------



## James Long

I like the explanation of driving over a cliff ...
The faster you are going the further out your arc will be - the longer distance that will be traveled.


----------



## jsg

Tom Robertson said:


> The satellites don't "aim" for a higher orbit by firing rockets (thrusters) directly toward the earth to go higher. They fire roughly directly into their path of travel, putting on the brakes, thus slowing down and thus moving higher in orbit.
> 
> Nor do the satellites fire directly away from Earth to go lower. They fire roughly directly along their path, just like a plane or car--speeding up in their direction of travel. This drops their orbit, things move faster, and things move East.


I'm with you except for the direction of fire. Maybe I'm confused about what you meant by firing into their path of travel and vice versa.

Looking at the article about orbital mechanics quoted earlier, and remembering space missions, it seems to me that they would fire their rockets behind them to accelerate forward (for the moment) and go up (for a half an orbit?). This would increase their kinetic energy. They would fire toward where they were heading to "put on the brakes" and that would rob them of velocity (for the moment) and kinetic energy, and they would drop the altitude of their orbit. It seems to me a remember that astronauts did a retro fire to come back to earth and that meant firing into the direction of travel so they would slow down. Then they would slow down more when they hit the atmosphere.

In any case this all reminds me of flying an aircraft. While you can change the attitude of the plane and make it go up a little by pulling on the stick, but you lose speed in response. The way you go up is by adding thrust and go down by removing thrust. You change the attitude of the plane only to match what you are doing with the thrust.

It's been so long I probably have that wrong, too.


----------



## Avder

Oh who cares how it moves you guys.

The almighty spaghetti monster could be tortured into moving it by some thetans who are under orders from god who got a hot tip from his buddy cthulu that he could get more HD Baseball if D12 moved faster and I wouldnt care as long as it GOT there.

Boy, I hope I didnt not offend anyone there. I try to be equal.


----------



## bobnielsen

James Long said:


> I like the explanation of driving over a cliff ...
> The faster you are going the further out your arc will be - the longer distance that will be traveled.


But you don't have a force pulling you back toward the cliff. If we ignore gravity, the picture changes a lot!


----------



## James Long

As long as I don't have to demonstrate the "driving over a cliff" example I'm happy. 



bobnielsen said:


> But you don't have a force pulling you back toward the cliff. If we ignore gravity, the picture changes a lot!


How can you ignore gravity? The satellites are affected by gravity ... that's what stops their velocity from taking them out into space away from the planet. (The cliff in the example just gives us a place to start from. It is hard to fall when still on the ground.)


----------



## jacmyoung

jsg said:


> ...In any case this all reminds me of flying an aircraft...


We have been reminded by the scientists not to use earthly objects as examples because there is friction, where in space there is none. Now going over a cliff is an universal example because after that your life is over, it no longer matters anymore.


----------



## VandyCWG

James Long said:


> I like the explanation of driving over a cliff ...
> The faster you are going the further out your arc will be - the longer distance that will be traveled.





James Long said:


> As long as I don't have to demonstrate the "driving over a cliff" example I'm happy.
> 
> How can you ignore gravity? The satellites are affected by gravity ... that's what stops their velocity from taking them out into space away from the planet. (The cliff in the example just gives us a place to start from. It is hard to fall when still on the ground.)


The "driving over a cliff" example is also a way us traffic crash investigators us math to establish speeds! It's amazing how math is present everywhere!

I wish I would have known this in high school when I was cussing my math teacher!!!!


----------



## TBlazer07

I've been out of kollidge 40 years and this is bringing back nightmares.

I liked it better when everone was arguing what the definition of "is" is! :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Now to use the equation given earlier:

v = sqrt(GM/r)

In space, assume the masses of the two objects do not change, the only way to raise the orbit, i.e. to increase the "r", is to reduce the "v". So Tom was correct, to raise the orbit, the sat thrusts in the direction of its path of travel to slow it down, therefore moving it into a higher orbit.

Where I disagree with Tom is, it does matter how much fuel the sat uses, if you want the sat to complete its move in 5 days, then it takes more fuel, compared to if you can wait for 50 days to complete the mission.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Now to use the equation given earlier:
> 
> v = sqrt(GM/r)
> 
> In space, assume the masses of the two objects do not change, the only way to raise the orbit, i.e. to increase the "r", is to reduce the "v". So Tom was correct, to raise the orbit, the sat thrusts in the direction of its path of travel to slow it down, therefore moving it into a higher orbit.
> 
> Where I disagree with Tom is, it does matter how much fuel the sat uses, if you want the sat to complete its move in 5 days, then it takes more fuel, compared to if you can wait for 50 days to complete the mission.


Then it sounds like you and I agree. My point was if you are willing to wait, small moves and long moves are the same fuel usage.

The corollary point is the one you make. If you want to make a small move in 5 days you use much less fuel than a large move over 5 days. 

Both agree and we're good. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## AllenE

jsg said:


> -snip---
> 
> In any case this all reminds me of flying an aircraft. While you can change the attitude of the plane and make it go up a little by pulling on the stick, but you lose speed in response. The way you go up is by adding thrust and go down by removing thrust. You change the attitude of the plane only to match what you are doing with the thrust.
> 
> It's been so long I probably have that wrong, too.


You are right that thrust affects altitude, more precisely though it controls change of altitude. Add power, climb, reach target altitude reduce power to cruise. Stick, or attitude controls speed during altitude change. Once at cruise, with attitude level, speed is most controlled by power. Both controls affect both speed and altitude, it's how you use the combination of the controls that dictate. I won't mention (propeller) pitch, it's only a part of the power setting.


----------



## Avder

wtf is this, physics class?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Avder said:


> wtf is this, physics class?


No, but this thread does have science content.


----------



## AllenE

Avder said:


> wtf is this, physics class?





Tom Robertson said:


> No, but this thread does have science content.


Even worse, I think I drifted from physics to aeronautics. Guilty.


----------



## bobnielsen

Avder said:


> wtf is this, physics class?


I once listened to a discussion between Richard Feynman and Murray Gell-Mann. I hardly understood a word they said, but it was fascinating nonetheless. :lol:

At least we haven't yet delved into quantum mechanics here.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Then it sounds like you and I agree. My point was if you are willing to wait, small moves and long moves are the same fuel usage.
> 
> The corollary point is the one you make. If you want to make a small move in 5 days you use much less fuel than a large move over 5 days.
> 
> Both agree and we're good.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Of course in this case, there is no "small move" or "large move", under the same distance of the move, completing the move in 5 days will use more fuel, compared to if you complete the same move in 50 days.

I guess if one wants to complete the move in 5 days as suppose in 50 days, the sat needs to use more powerful thrust therefore use more fuel, reduce its speed more, and move itself to a much higher orbit, then use more fuel later to bring it back down from that much higher orbit, compared to if one does not mind completing the move in 50 days.


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> No, but this thread does have science content.












So ... faster is higher like LameLefty said or faster is lower like Grandpa Tom said?


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> I guess if one wants to complete the move in 5 days as suppose in 50 days, the sat needs to use more powerful thrust therefore use more fuel, reduce its speed more, and move itself to a much higher orbit, then use more fuel later to bring it back down from that much higher orbit, compared to if one does not mind completing the move in 50 days.


I'll let some expert calculate what altitude would be used to move the 27 degrees in five days vs 50 days. What would be the closest the ITU would want a moving satellite to satellites in the Clarke belt? At that altitude how many days would it take to move 27 degrees?

IIRC from prior moves we'll see the movement slow during the last couple days of the move. I'm not sure anyone would want to do a 27 degree move it in five days.


----------



## Sixto

Original FCC Filing was 20 days for Drift. It may be different. We'll see shortly.

We've had previous TLE data of how drift could be performed in exactly 20 days.


----------



## Tom Robertson

James Long said:


> So ... faster is higher like LameLefty said or faster is lower like Grandpa Tom said?


According to this nasa calculator: http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktrflght.html lower orbit is faster. Which confirms my ancient recollections. 

Cheers,
Papa Tom


----------



## cbayus

Does anyone know what time the drift approval becomes active. UTC, Dateline, Eastern, or Pacific?


----------



## jacmyoung

James Long said:


> ...I'm not sure anyone would want to do a 27 degree move it in five days.


I don't recall any specifics, except that last time I was tracking AMC14, when I read that it started moving, I decide to have some beer, woke up from my hangover, realizing the move was complete. Again don't remember any more details


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> I don't recall any specifics, except that last time I was tracking AMC14, when I read that it started moving, I decide to have some beer, woke up from my hangover, realizing the move was complete. Again don't remember any more details


With the failure of the second burn on AMC14 it probably isn't the best example of a good flight.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

DirectMan said:


> According to the Boeing web site on the Boeing 702HP spacecraft it has 54 active and 16 spare spot beam Ka-band Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA). If the aim is preset at the factory then in theory the spares are similarly preaimed - perhaps one spare for each general spot beam target.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html#specs
> 
> It is too bad that D* was not able to employ the spares on D10 to rectify the spot beam problems they disclosed, or perhaps the spares are being employed but were insufficient to replace all the possibly faulty TWTA.
> 
> Possibly this spare capacity means that major markets like LA, NY, Chicago could have more than 2 transponders allocated to their markets, thus more than the 5 x 2 = 10 HD locals presently available. It might mean other smaller markets would be affected but it would be an interesting business case for D* to contemplate. I would weigh the large markets over the last few small markets waiting for HD locals.


Chicago should get at least 5 more HD CLTV HD, WPWR HD, WCIU HD, WYCC HD, Live Well HD and ION but ION is just the simulcast of the national feed.


----------



## cebbigh

bobnielsen said:


> But you don't have a force pulling you back toward the cliff. If we ignore gravity, the picture changes a lot!


Thank you. Good analogy.


----------



## afulkerson

New TLE

DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A 10116.18642002 -.00000257 00000-0 10000-3 0 1651
2 36131 000.0772 051.6943 0001381 037.0182 116.4246 01.00269642 1267


----------



## wmb

Ok, I did a little math... Using equations 4.16 and 4.17 from here http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm, I calculated a few velocities. Here it is...

As geosynchronous orbit, the velocity is 3.074 km/s. Raise one side of the orbit by 150 km, the veolcity becomes 3.066 km/s at apogee and 3.077 km/s at perigee. So, it speeds up at perigee, but slows dow at apoge. Make the orbit circular at 150 km above geosynchronous, and the velocity becomess 3.069 km/s.

In order to raise the orbit, they fire in the direction of travel, basicaly speeding the satellite up. The increase in Kinetic energy (velocity) becomes an increase in potential energy (height). So, you speed it up to slow it down and move it west. Once you are where you want to be, you slow it down to speed it up and get it to stay where you want it. (I hope I got that right Lefty?).

I wouldn't expect the altitude change to be much more than 150 km because according to the wikipedia page on graveyard orbits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit) there is a 200 km GEO protected zone, and I would like a safety factor -- I'm an engineer and like making sure things work.


----------



## Sixto

Update #165 - similar (inclination at little higher)


----------



## TDK1044

All I want to know is when it actually starts to drift to its final location.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

D* promised new HD in May so wouldn't it have to start drifting right about...NOW?


----------



## CorpITGuy

Coca Cola Kid said:


> D* promised new HD in May so wouldn't it have to start drifting right about...NOW?


No. They have available bandwidth on other satellites, as has been documented by Sixto. The question is whether they'll feel safe doing that...


----------



## Sixto

CorpITGuy said:


> No. They have available bandwidth on other satellites, as has been documented by Sixto. The question is whether they'll feel safe doing that...


Unless they totally change the Cinema HD setup (contracts and part-time sharing), they have very little capacity elsewhere other then a channel or two.


----------



## Sixto

Coca Cola Kid said:


> D* promised new HD in May so wouldn't it have to start drifting right about...NOW?


I expect the Drift to start this week.

But have thought that a few times before.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

CorpITGuy said:


> No. They have available bandwidth on other satellites, as has been documented by Sixto. The question is whether they'll feel safe doing that...


Also some of that bandwidth is used for part time sports over flow as well.

After round 1 of NHL and NBA playoffs is over that will free a little space but with the MLB games and the teams left in the NHL and NBA some room for RSN over flows are still needed.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Unless they totally change the Cinema HD setup (contracts and part-time sharing), they have very little capacity elsewhere other then a channel or two.


A channel or two in May is all they need to launch to fulfill their press release statement of "30 HD channels begin launching in May".


----------



## joed32

Sixto said:


> I expect the Drift to start this week.
> 
> But have thought that a few times before.


Tom's hint was about Arbor Day and he lives in Utah which celebrates Arbor Day on the last Friday in April which would be Friday the 30th.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am not sure but I think he meant that you fire so the thrust is behind the satellite. I think you're taking it to mean fire in front of the satellite which would, I agree, slow it.


----------



## jacmyoung

wmb said:


> ...In order to raise the orbit, they fire in the direction of travel, basicaly speeding the satellite up...


If you fire in the direction of travel, shouldn't the sat "slow down"? Of course the total energy still goes up, so it rises to a higher orbit?

But conversely if you fire away at the direction of travel, the sat "speeds up", total energy goes up too, but it drops to a lower orbit?

Within that 150 km limitation, I think you can speed up the move by raising it close to 150 km, or if you are not in a hurry, only raise it up a little?


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am not sure but I think he meant that you fire so the thrust is behind the satellite. I think you're taking it to mean fire in front of the satellite which would, I agree, slow it.


That was exactly what happens, to rasie the orbit, the sat fires in the direction of the travel, to lower the orbit, it fires "behind" the sat.


----------



## ShawnL25

So if drift begins in the next day or two the earliest we could expect to see channels would be May 19th? More likely the last week in May, this is very exciting news.


----------



## wmb

jacmyoung said:


> If you fire in the direction of travel, shouldn't the sat "slow down"? Of course the total energy still goes up, so it rises to a higher orbit?
> 
> But conversely if you fire away at the direction of travel, the sat "speeds up", total energy goes up too, but it drops to a lower orbit?
> 
> Within that 150 km limitation, I think you can speed up the move by raising it close to 150 km, or if you are not in a hurry, only raise it up a little?


I guess Newton's third law had me confused in the description. Action/reaction stuff. If the satellite is moving to the right, fire the rocket on the left to increase kinetic energy to the right, in the direction of travel.


----------



## Jeremy W

wmb said:


> I guess Newton's third law had me confused in the description. Action/reaction stuff. If the satellite is moving to the right, fire the rocket on the left to increase kinetic energy to the right, in the direction of travel.


The confusion comes from you saying "in the direction of travel" which is inaccurate. If the satellite is moving to the right, firing "in the direction of travel" would mean firing the rocket on the right. You have to fire in the opposite direction to achieve what you're saying.


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> Update #165 - similar (inclination at little higher)


Is the change in inclination in preparation of the move, so D12 will be far away from other satellites when it moves?


----------



## oldfantom

PhilS said:


> Is the change in inclination in preparation of the move, so D12 will be far away from other satellites when it moves?


The inclination has been at that same position at least once during the testing cycle. So, I would have to say it might just be the testing wobble we have been seeing. Hindsight might be our best indication of the start of the drift.


----------



## syphix

It should be noted, however, that inclination (now at .08) is the highest it's been since it was parked. This MAY be a sign that the bird is on the move. It's expected to start drifting "soon".

But oldfantom is correct: we may not see it BEGIN to move, only notice that it IS moving some 1-3 days into the drift.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Some of y'all ain't firin' on all thrusters, XIPS or not.

;-)


----------



## Jeremy W

syphix said:


> It should be noted, however, that inclination (now at .08) is the highest it's been since it was parked. This MAY be a sign that the bird is on the move. It's expected to start drifting "soon".


I believe that the increased inclination is a sign that they have lost control of the satellite.

:lol:


----------



## HIGHWAY

so if the drift begins on wednesday we may not see the update till may and no that the drift has started.


----------



## HoTat2

jacmyoung said:


> If you fire in the direction of travel, shouldn't the sat "slow down"? Of course the total energy still goes up, so it rises to a higher orbit?
> 
> But conversely if you fire away at the direction of travel, the sat "speeds up", total energy goes up too, but it drops to a lower orbit?
> 
> Within that 150 km limitation, I think you can speed up the move by raising it close to 150 km, or if you are not in a hurry, only raise it up a little?


Again remember to raise the orbit you must actually fire the thrusters in the direction of travel for the satellite along its natural west to east course (for all prograde orbits that is) to increase its velocity.

This will propel the satellite into a "transfer ellipse" with the perigee point of the ellipse tangent to the radius of the initial lower orbit at the position where the thrusters initially fire to cause the increase in velocity. And the apogee point is tangent to the radius of the new higher orbit and at a lower velocity.

See diagram and explanation here;

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2436009#post2436009

The opposite occurs for lowering the orbit of course...

At least this is for the standard "Hohmann transfer orbit" which I assume DirecTV will use to drift D12 from 76° to 103° nom. because of it has the greatest fuel efficiency.


----------



## slimoli

Will the D12 signal be any stronger that the other birds ? We have a lot of bad weather here in Florida and I wonder if there is anything new that woud make the reception less vulnerable to the weather.


----------



## GoPokes43

HoTat2 said:


> Again remember to raise the orbit you must actually fire the thrusters in the direction of travel for the satellite along its natural west to east course (for all prograde orbits that is) to increase its velocity.
> 
> This will propel the satellite into a "transfer ellipse" with the perigee point of the ellipse tangent to the radius of the initial lower orbit at the position where the thrusters initially fire to cause the increase in velocity. And the apogee point is tangent to the radius of the new higher orbit and at a lower velocity.
> 
> See diagram and explanation here;
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2436009#post2436009
> 
> The opposite occurs for lowering the orbit of course...
> 
> At least this is for the standard "Hohmann transfer orbit" which I assume DirecTV will use to drift D12 from 76° to 103° nom. because of it has the greatest fuel efficiency.


Thanks HoTat. And, to apply a little common sense to the equations, to move to a higher orbit is akin to escaping earth's gravity. Accordingly, velocity needs to be added (though it will need to be slowed to be put in the correct circular orbit). Conversely, if the satellite is stopped, it won't increase it's orbital height - it will fall to the earth.


----------



## jacmyoung

HoTat2 said:


> Again remember to raise the orbit you must actually fire the thrusters in the direction of travel for the satellite along its natural west to east course (for all prograde orbits that is) to increase its velocity...


Correct, that is why I avoided the word "velocity". From the standpoint of a J6P, what I have been talking about is the "speed", i.e. the speed the sat travels in the direction of the orbit course, when the orbit is raised, such "speed" is reduced. The higher the orbit, the slower the sat travels in the direction of the course of the orbit.

If you fire in the direction of your own path of travel, of course you "slow down" in the direction of the path of your own travel. But in this case since as you fire, you also move up, so the velocity works differently.


----------



## James Long

Keeping the relativity straightened out is the problem. Telling J6P that accelerating will slow the satellite down is counter intuitive. Keeping to ONE standard might help him understand, especially if J6P has emptied a couple of cans before reading the post.


----------



## Doug Brott

I consider myself j6p in this discussion .. :lol:

"speed" to me is if I were standing on Earth watching it move across the sky (of course making the erroneous assumption that I can actually see it from Earth).

So it's a simple (sort of) distance/time calculation .. and that's your speed.


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> "speed" to me is if I were standing on Earth watching it move across the sky (of course making the erroneous assumption that I can actually see it from Earth).
> 
> So it's a simple (sort of) distance/time calculation .. and that's your speed.


So what is faster? The NASCAR running down the backstretch in the distance or the fly that just flew in front of your face?


----------



## Doug Brott

James Long said:


> So what is faster? The NASCAR running down the backstretch in the distance or the fly that just flew in front of your face?


What if I don't see both? 

I don't know actually .. I do know (suspect) that the NASCAR could sustain the speed longer than the fly.

I'm not a rocket scientist and don't play one on the Internet ...


----------



## TDK1044

It seems to me that the only relevant post in this thread is post #1.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> What if I don't see both?
> 
> I don't know actually .. I do know (suspect) that the NASCAR could sustain the speed longer than the fly.
> 
> I'm not a rocket scientist and don't play one on the Internet ...


I agree with your definition of "speed" in this case, as I said this has been what our J6Ps meant it to be.

When we stand on the surface of the earth looking at that sat directly above us, the reference point will be the same sat without the firing to move, compared to the same sat that fired its thrust to move, from our vantage point, the latter would appear moving slower in speed, compared to the one that did not fire, i.e. the latter would appear "falling behind" the earlier. In this case it was actually in part because the latter actually did "slow down" in the direction that we could see.

What we J6Ps cannot see was the latter also was moving away from the earth, but as I have said, what we J6Ps don't see, it does not count And if the scientists cannot understand, then the science has no future


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> What if I don't see both?
> 
> I don't know actually .. I do know (suspect) that the NASCAR could sustain the speed longer than the fly.


It just seems that a distant observer would be a poor source of an estimate. The fly could be out of your range of vision before seeing it registered. The NASCAR would take longer to clear your range of vision.









The imaginary person riding the satellite would be traveling "geostationary" at an orbital velocity 11,066 km/hr= 3.07 km/sec (6,876 miles/hr). This is following the orbit circumference of 264,869 km (164,582 miles), 35,785 km (22,236 miles) above the equator.

Now take two imaginary people riding satellites side by side. One is the control ... he remains locked in at the same velocity and height. The other one fires thrusters behind him pushing him faster (J6P). But this "faster" also pushes him higher along that transfer orbit and he watches the other satellite (the control in this experiment) fall below but ahead of him. Then he fires thrusters ahead of him slowing him down (J6P). This "slower" allows him to fall back into a new geostationary orbit behind the other satellite (perhaps 19,872 km / 12,339 miles behind the other satellite - or 27 degrees of movement - if the thrusters are timed right).

If he wanted to move ahead of the other satellite he would fire thrusters ahead of him first to drop to a lower orbit, run closer to the Earth than the geostationary satellite then fire thrusters behind him to regain speed and fall in ahead of the other satellite.

Close enough?


----------



## Ernie

wmb said:


> Ok, I did a little math... Using equations 4.16 and 4.17 from here http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm, I calculated a few velocities. Here it is...
> 
> As geosynchronous orbit, the velocity is 3.074 km/s. Raise one side of the orbit by 150 km, the veolcity becomes 3.066 km/s at apogee and 3.077 km/s at perigee. So, it speeds up at perigee, but slows dow at apoge. Make the orbit circular at 150 km above geosynchronous, and the velocity becomess 3.069 km/s.
> 
> In order to raise the orbit, they fire in the direction of travel, basicaly speeding the satellite up. The increase in Kinetic energy (velocity) becomes an increase in potential energy (height). So, you speed it up to slow it down and move it west. Once you are where you want to be, you slow it down to speed it up and get it to stay where you want it. (I hope I got that right Lefty?).
> 
> I wouldn't expect the altitude change to be much more than 150 km because according to the wikipedia page on graveyard orbits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit) there is a 200 km GEO protected zone, and I would like a safety factor -- I'm an engineer and like making sure things work.


Thanks for that. My original post was about speed after it reached the drift orbit (which is needed to understand the westward drift). People seemed to get confused by Lefty's (correct) statements about what has to happen at the start of moving to the drift orbit. Your post tied them together nicely.

Now you do bring up an interesting question though. Someone (several people?) have calculated the relative drift speed for a 20 day drift at 41 km/hr (which my calculator agrees with). Reducing the Clarke belt orbital speed by that amount and plugging that back into to orbit calculator yields an altitude 310 km higher. Maybe there aren't any satellites in graveyard orbits yet, or maybe they had to wait a few days extra for one to get out of the way (and causing consternation among DBSTalk users).

Ernie


----------



## Skyboss

So if a satellite farts in space, does anyone hear it? :shrug:


----------



## jacmyoung

James Long said:


> It just seems that a distant observer would be a poor source of an estimate. The fly could be out of your range of vision before seeing it registered. The NASCAR would take longer to clear your range of vision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The imaginary person riding the satellite would be traveling "geostationary" at an orbital velocity 11,066 km/hr= 3.07 km/sec (6,876 miles/hr). This is following the orbit circumference of 264,869 km (164,582 miles), 35,785 km (22,236 miles) above the equator.
> 
> Now take two imaginary people riding satellites side by side. One is the control ... he remains locked in at the same velocity and height. The other one fires thrusters behind him pushing him faster (J6P). But this "faster" also pushes him higher along that transfer orbit and he watches the other satellite (the control in this experiment) fall below but ahead of him. Then he fires thrusters ahead of him slowing him down (J6P). This "slower" allows him to fall back into a new geostationary orbit behind the other satellite (perhaps 19,872 km / 12,339 miles behind the other satellite - or 27 degrees of movement - if the thrusters are timed right).
> 
> If he wanted to move ahead of the other satellite he would fire thrusters ahead of him first to drop to a lower orbit, run closer to the Earth than the geostationary satellite then fire thrusters behind him to regain speed and fall in ahead of the other satellite.
> 
> Close enough?


The reason the above example will not work with the J6Ps is, it is counter to our understanding. There were several pilots here who had tried to use their flight experience to try to make sense of this, they failed, not because they are the less bright of the J6Ps, in fact I think they are the brighter among our J6Ps, but even they were confused, how do you expect us not so bright J6Ps to follow?


----------



## jacmyoung

Skyboss said:


> So if a satellite farts in space, does anyone hear it? :shrug:


Even the sat cannot hear its own fart because there is no air


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Even the sat cannot hear its own fart because there is no air


The vibration would be transmitted through its own structure and detected by accelerometers.


----------



## Carl Spock

^ Nothing is grosser than smelling your own farts in space.


----------



## evan_s

slimoli said:


> Will the D12 signal be any stronger that the other birds ? We have a lot of bad weather here in Florida and I wonder if there is anything new that woud make the reception less vulnerable to the weather.


I see nothing to indicate that it would be any stronger than D10/D11. Even if it was it wouldn't really help the issue. The main problem is that the Ka band is at a different frequency and is more easily absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere. This results in more dramatic loss of signal compared to Ku when you have clouds/rain. You can only go so powerful before you risk interference issues with other sats. For spot beams it is possible to dynamically scale the power (the spaceway sats were originally designed with this feature but not sure if it is actually used) but for Conus signals it isn't really possible as there will always be areas ranging from no clouds to heavy clouds someplace in the coverage.


----------



## Curtis0620

Skyboss said:


> So if a satellite farts in space, does anyone hear it? :shrug:


No, but, hopefully it is pointing in the right direction and it sends it toward 103.


----------



## jacmyoung

Ernie said:


> ...Now you do bring up an interesting question though. Someone (several people?) have calculated the relative drift speed for a 20 day drift at 41 km/hr (which my calculator agrees with). Reducing the Clarke belt orbital speed by that amount and plugging that back into to orbit calculator yields an altitude 310 km higher. Maybe there aren't any satellites in graveyard orbits yet, or maybe they had to wait a few days extra for one to get out of the way (and causing consternation among DBSTalk users).
> 
> Ernie


That is proof the "move" starts as soon as the sat "farts". If the "move" has to wait till the sat "settles" into that higher circular orbit, the orbit has to be beyond the "graveyard". You do not want our sats to have the experience of being haunted, ever. They are too much of babies already.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> The vibration would be transmitted through its own structure and detected by accelerometers.


But that will not be the sound of a fart, maybe some vibration detected by some meter, but not the sound of a fart


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Will the D12 signal be any stronger that the other birds ? We have a lot of bad weather here in Florida and I wonder if there is anything new that woud make the reception less vulnerable to the weather.





evan_s said:


> I see nothing to indicate that it would be any stronger than D10/D11. Even if it was it wouldn't really help the issue. The main problem is that the Ka band is at a different frequency and is more easily absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere. This results in more dramatic loss of signal compared to Ku when you have clouds/rain. You can only go so powerful before you risk interference issues with other sats. For spot beams it is possible to dynamically scale the power (the spaceway sats were originally designed with this feature but not sure if it is actually used) but for Conus signals it isn't really possible as there will always be areas ranging from no clouds to heavy clouds someplace in the coverage.


This will be the first use of Ka-Hi for National.


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> But that will not be the sound of a fart, maybe some vibration detected by some meter, but not the sound of a fart


Sound is the motion of compression-rarefication waves. It can be transmitted through solids, liquids, gases and plasmas.


----------



## evan_s

DirectMan said:


> According to the Boeing web site on the Boeing 702HP spacecraft it has 54 active and 16 spare spot beam Ka-band Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA). If the aim is preset at the factory then in theory the spares are similarly preaimed - perhaps one spare for each general spot beam target.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10_11_12/dtv10_11_12.html#specs
> 
> It is too bad that D* was not able to employ the spares on D10 to rectify the spot beam problems they disclosed, or perhaps the spares are being employed but were insufficient to replace all the possibly faulty TWTA.
> 
> Possibly this spare capacity means that major markets like LA, NY, Chicago could have more than 2 transponders allocated to their markets, thus more than the 5 x 2 = 10 HD locals presently available. It might mean other smaller markets would be affected but it would be an interesting business case for D* to contemplate. I would weigh the large markets over the last few small markets waiting for HD locals.


As was already mentioned by Tom the TWTA's are the amplifiers that increase the signal the sat receives before transmitting it back down. They are not aimed at anything but are connected to a Bent tube pipe (aka transmitting antenna) that is aimed at something through a fancy switch that allows different TWTA's to power different pipes.

DirecTV is not actually claiming any increase in capacity for Spots from launching D12. Obviously, DirecTV will have more spots available with the 2 sats positioned up there but that doesn't mean they can actually use more of them at the same time. That depends on the exact positioning of all the spots and the frequencies available. You can re-use the same frequency multiple times but only by having spots aimed at different areas that don't overlap. And just because you don't see any signal on particular TPs doesn't mean that they wouldn't overlap somewhere else and cause a problem.

Also, the spot beams are run a little differently and actually have more than 5 channels per tp anyway. The KA spot beams are also fairly large so are probably covering multiple markets too. The question of filling in missing locals, be it PBS or CW or other specific locals, is a very complicated one and I'm not sure anyone besides DirecTV can really tell if it is possible.


----------



## Beerstalker

Put your ear up against the structure and you would hear it.

Sound is just vibrations. Whether that vibration travels through the air (a gas), liquid, or solid it is still sound.


----------



## curt8403

Beerstalker said:


> Put your ear up against the structure and you would hear it.
> 
> Sound is just vibrations. Whether that vibration travels through the air (a gas), liquid, or solid it is still sound.


put a glass of water on the floor, you should see the vibrations
:sure: Dr. Who


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> The reason the above example will not work with the J6Ps is, it is counter to our understanding. There were several pilots here who had tried to use their flight experience to try to make sense of this, they failed, not because they are the less bright of the J6Ps, in fact I think they are the brighter among our J6Ps, but even they were confused, how do you expect us not so bright J6Ps to follow?


For some J6Ps there is just no hope.

I pass on flight experience because it involves aerodynamics ... them thar solar panels are not wings! Only the F-4 Falcon "flying rock" comes close - but it still has enough lift to fly when propelled. (Cut the engines and you'll find out that the F-4 is NOT designed as a glider.) The only thing that keeps a satellite flying is the centrifugal force balancing it against the Earth's gravity.


----------



## Sixto

evan_s said:


> As was already mentioned by Tom the TWTA's are the amplifiers that increase the signal the sat receives before transmitting it back down. They are not aimed at anything but are connected to a Bent tube pipe (aka transmitting antenna) that is aimed at something through a fancy switch that allows different TWTA's to power different pipes.
> 
> DirecTV is not actually claiming any increase in capacity for Spots from launching D12. Obviously, DirecTV will have more spots available with the 2 sats positioned up there but that doesn't mean they can actually use more of them at the same time. That depends on the exact positioning of all the spots and the frequencies available. You can re-use the same frequency multiple times but only by having spots aimed at different areas that don't overlap. And just because you don't see any signal on particular TPs doesn't mean that they wouldn't overlap somewhere else and cause a problem.
> 
> Also, the spot beams are run a little differently and actually have more than 5 channels per tp anyway. The KA spot beams are also fairly large so are probably covering multiple markets too. The question of filling in missing locals, be it PBS or CW or other specific locals, is a very complicated one and I'm not sure anyone besides DirecTV can really tell if it is possible.


I am curious how much adjustment can be made while in space, which is one theory on what's been going on for the past 4-6 weeks, if it's even possible.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> For some J6Ps there is just no hope.
> 
> I pass on flight experience because it involves aerodynamics ... them thar solar panels are not wings! Only the F-4 Falcon "flying rock" comes close - but it still has enough lift to fly when propelled. (Cut the engines and you'll find out that the F-4 is NOT designed as a glider.) The only thing that keeps a satellite flying is the centrifugal force pulling it away from the Earth's gravity.


Yes, when Centripetal Force equals Gravitational Force the satellite orbits at the same altitude. When Gravitational Force is greater then Centripetal Force, well, then you were riding on Skylab. 

Mike


----------



## Satelliteracer

I'd like to add my vast scientific background to this discussion and simply say..... wormhole. 

I've always want to say that.

Thank you.


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> I am curious how much adjustment can be made while in space, which is one theory on what's been going on for the past 4-6 weeks, if it's even possible.


Does D12 have steerable spots? Or is that the question?


----------



## mreposter

Satelliteracer said:


> ..... wormhole.


Give that man a donut.


----------



## curt8403

Satelliteracer said:


> I'd like to add my vast scientific background to this discussion and simply say..... wormhole.
> 
> I've always want to say that.
> 
> Thank you.


in a rather odd Finnish Dialect that would be translated to Maggothole. 
(reference to StarWreck and Captain Pirk)


----------



## Sixto

James Long said:


> Does D12 have steerable spots? Or is that the question?


The question that I've been curious about, is how much of D12 can actually be adjusted in space.

If, for whatever reason, they decided in mid-March, that they wanted to adjust or test something different, what could they actually adjust.

Hypothetical ... they had a plan for D12 working with D10 and/or SW1 ... then they did some testing and decided to change things a little bit ... how much could they actually adjust.


----------



## Hdhead

Satelliteracer said:


> I'd like to add my vast scientific background to this discussion and simply say..... wormhole


Now I get it! D12 is wormhole capable. It can jump from 76 to 103 instantaneously. No need for TLE's because it will just arrive.:eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

Satelliteracer said:


> I'd like to add my vast scientific background to this discussion and simply say..... wormhole.
> 
> I've always want to say that.
> 
> Thank you.


Belaaaaaaayyyyyyy tttthhhhhaaaaaaatttt phaaaaaaaaaaaaassssseeeeeeeerrrrrrr ooooooorrrrrrddddddeeerrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## curt8403

Hdhead said:


> Now I get it! D12 is wormhole capable. It can jump from 76 to 103 instantaneously. No need for TLE's because it will just arrive.:eek2:


I thought wormholes could not exist so close to a planet. would that not rip the fabric of Space time?

not to mention attracting the Vogons


----------



## Groundhog45

James, the F-4 was the Phantom. I think the F-16 is the Falcon.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> Sound is the motion of compression-rarefication waves. It can be transmitted through solids, liquids, gases and plasmas.


That is the exact kind of explanation I warned against making by you scientists, the original question was asked, let's assume by a J6P. Therefore we must assume he referred to the situation in which if he was riding or anywhere near the sat, or on the ground, would he be able to hear that fart from the sat with his own ears, not under water, or attached to a wall. As such the only instrument we can reference in order to explain it, and at the same time not to confuse him, are our ears, while free standing. Any further scientific elaboration will lead to additional beer consumption and likely impairment of the ears.


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Any further scientific elaboration will lead to additional beer consumption and likely impairment of the ears.


You say that like it's a bad thing.


----------



## smiddy

Groundhog45 said:


> James, the F-4 was the Phantom. I think the F-16 is the Falcon.


Yes, this is true! 

a.k.a. Flying Brick and Lawn Dart (respectively of course).


----------



## James Long

Groundhog45 said:


> James, the F-4 was the Phantom. I think the F-16 is the Falcon.


Correct. It has been too long!


----------



## smiddy

James Long said:


> Correct. It has been too long!


James Long?! :hurah:


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> James Long?! :hurah:


**Rimshot!**


----------



## James Long

smiddy said:


> James Long?! :hurah:


No, I'm only one Long.


----------



## curt8403

James Long said:


> No, I'm only one Long.


 better than Long-Chinny *the man of many faces


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.


Not so much for the J6Ps of course, but bad for you scientists, because more beer consumption and impairment of productivity, mean less funding and less popular support for scientific research. I know eventually I will get my point through with your scientific community, but sometimes I just feel you guys are too smart to understand us.


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> Not so much for the J6Ps of course, but bad for you scientists, because more beer consumption and impairment of productivity, mean less funding and less popular support for scientific research. I know eventually I will get my point through with your scientific community, but sometimes I just feel you guys are too smart to understand us.


You have that backward.

Typically more beer consumption = more funding.  I know this part of the equation VERY WELL!


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> You have that backward.
> 
> Typically more beer consumption = more funding.  I know this part of the equation VERY WELL!


More funding is not the same as more funding for scientific research. As an example, more funding for the advancement of understanding after beer consumption, can cancel out the advancement of understanding as a result of scientific research.


----------



## Avder

This thread is taking too long.


----------



## CuriousG

Groundhog45 said:


> James, the F-4 was the Phantom. I think the F-16 is the Falcon.


And neither of them are much of a glider.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

If a satellite drifts in the sky are no one records the TLE, is it really moving?


----------



## jilardi2

Coca Cola Kid said:


> If a satellite drifts in the sky are no one records the TLE, is it really moving?


only if you think the lions are going to win the superbowl


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

jilardi2 said:


> only if you think the lions are going to win the superbowl


Hey they had a good draft. I saw on ESPN the viewers thought they made out the best of any team. But enough sports chat.

:backtotop:

Is it drifting yet?


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> This will be the first use of Ka-Hi for National.


Briefly on another topic Sixto, but about the countdown/mission clock on page one. Minor point but I thought in official rocket launch countdown and space mission parlance the countdown clock at any point prior to launch is stated in the negative as "T-minus" something and afterwards always as positive or "T plus" something?


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Briefly on another topic Sixto, but about the countdown/mission clock on page one. Minor point but I thought in official rocket launch countdown and space mission parlance the countdown clock at any point prior to launch is stated in the negative as "T-minus" something and afterwards always as positive or "T plus" something?


Yep, been just re-using the 3rd party link with the countdown in reverse since the launch.

Before the launch, it was T-Minus followed by a positive number. Now post#1 shows a negative number, which is days after the launch.


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

HoTat2 said:


> Briefly on another topic Sixto, but about the countdown/mission clock on page one. Minor point but I thought in official rocket launch countdown and space mission parlance the countdown clock at any point prior to launch is stated in the negative as "T-minus" something and afterwards always as positive or "T plus" something?


So, the inverted clock explains the apparent lack of satellite movement. How could it move? It was obviously launched upside down, and is now at the bottom of (where was it launched--Russia?) some coal mine, and it can't be budged.

Bummer. We'll have to get terrestrial antennas, I guess.

Stan


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> Yep, been just re-using the 3rd party link with the countdown in reverse since the launch.
> 
> Before the launch, it was T-Minus followed by a positive number. Now post#1 shows a negative number, which is days after the launch.


So its a double negative? That's bad grammar.


----------



## James Long

This thread gives me deja vu!



Coca Cola Kid said:


> So its a double negative? That's bad grammar.


Grammar was good until grandpa got hold of her.


----------



## yyygac2

JoeTheDragon said:


> Chicago should get at least 5 more HD CLTV HD, WPWR HD, WCIU HD, WYCC HD, Live Well HD and ION but ION is just the simulcast of the national feed.


I'd add WYIN HD to your list for our NW IN friends (and the rest of us NW of the loop who can't get a good OTA signal - sure wish WTTW and WYCC didn't block the WYIN proposals to relocate their transmitter to Sears or Hancock).


----------



## wmb

TDK1044 said:


> It seems to me that the only relevant post in this thread is post #1.


Finally, someone understands this thread!


----------



## MycroftHolmes

wmb said:


> TDK1044 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to me that the only relevant post in this thread is post #1.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, someone understands this thread!
Click to expand...

I disagree! I think post number 2 is highly relevant, maybe even more so than post #1. I say anybody who disagrees is an unscientific, dish-loving troll, who thinks the sky is falling.


----------



## smiddy

James Long said:


> This thread gives me deja vu!
> 
> Grammar was good until grandpa got hold of her.


!rolling Grandma's got a squeeze-box she wears on her chest...


----------



## James Long

So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

James Long said:


> So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


Drift Away?


----------



## smiddy

James Long said:


> So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


Ratt's "You're in Trouble" :lol:


----------



## Carl Spock

Willie Nelson's On The Road Again.

Speaking of Willie, this would explain a lot:


----------



## afulkerson

New TLE:

DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A 10117.21762738 -.00000256 00000-0 10000-3 0 1665
2 36131 000.0798 052.8601 0001389 035.2019 129.3256 01.00269609 1274


----------



## BWELL316

Umm, I am no rocket scientist, but does that mean it's moving? (The irony of this "rocket scientist" pun can go in many different directions. Please choose the direction that best fits for your situation)


----------



## afulkerson

BWELL316 said:


> Umm, I am no rocket scientist, but does that mean it's moving? (The irony of this "rocket scientist" pun can go in many different directions. Please choose the direction that best fits for your situation)


No change that I can see but I am not a rocket scientist so will leave comment to them. 

I just saw a new tle and just posted it.


----------



## HerntDawg

James Long said:


> So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


I think it should be "Locomotive" GnR


----------



## Sixto

Update #166 - similar.


----------



## ATARI

"Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds"


----------



## Carl Spock

Right now we need a punk song about television to wake the damn thing up.

"Plastic Fantastic Lover" - Jefferson Airplane


----------



## Hutchinshouse

James Long said:


> So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


*Movin' On Up* (The Jefferson's Theme Song)

Well we're movin on up,
To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.

Fish don't fry in the kitchen;
Beans don't burn on the grill.
Took a whole lotta tryin'
Just to get up that hill.
Now we're up in the big leagues
Gettin' our turn at bat.
As long as we live, it's you and me baby
There ain't nothin wrong with that.

Well we're movin on up,
To the east side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up
To the east side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Update #166 - similar.


Similarity can be deceiving over time


----------



## wavemaster

Still sitting at 76 as planned?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.


----------



## raoul5788

Carl Spock said:


> Right now we need a punk song about television to wake the damn thing up.
> 
> "Plastic Fantastic Lover" - Jefferson Airplane


Punk? The Airplane?


----------



## alnielsen

Hutchinshouse said:


> *Movin' On Up* (The Jefferson's Theme Song)
> 
> Well we're movin on up,
> To the east side.
> To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
> Movin on up
> To the east side.
> We finally got a piece of the pie.


The sat is moving from to the wast side.
How about "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang"?


----------



## HIGHWAY

fly me to the moon:lol:


----------



## GoPokes43

Stuart Sweet said:


> D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.


I.e., it will be in place by August to meet D*'s statement that the 30 new HD channels will be available within a few months after May.


----------



## LameLefty

GoPokes43 said:


> I.e., it will be in place by August to meet D*'s statement that the 30 new HD channels will be available within a few months after May.


Um, that's not what Directv's statement was or is currently, and this is not the thread for it.



> Just announced! Adding 30 new full-time HD channels - coming in May
> 
> More movies, more sports, more lifestyle programming - DIRECTV will soon deliver even more of what you love in crystal-clear HD.


http://www.directv.com:80/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels

Now . . .

:backtotop


----------



## Wisegoat

Carl Spock said:


> Right now we need a punk song about television to wake the damn thing up.
> 
> "Plastic Fantastic Lover" - Jefferson Airplane


Don't really think Jefferson Airplane is punk, but. . .

My suggestion is "See No Evil" by Richard Hell and Television.

Not punk, but "Just Can't Get Enough" by Depeche Mode would work as well.


----------



## Carl Spock

raoul5788 said:


> Punk? The Airplane?


Yes.

Not to get this discussion too far afield, but listen to Plastic Fantastic Lover. Fast and loud, with Marty Balin spitting out the lyrics. I hear Joe Strummer in his delivery. The music is the Clash's funk with a good helping of Elvis Costello's and Graham Parker's love of soul.

I've always wanted to hear a funky punk band - State Radio comes to mind - tackle this song. They could rip it to shreads.

3/5 Of A Mile In Ten Seconds is an even better example of the punk side of early Airplane, but that song has nothing to do with televisions. :grin:


----------



## pbg

James Long said:


> So ... where's D12? And what will be the theme song for the move?


simple:


----------



## thelucky1

Directv website - Just announced! Adding 30 new full-time HD channels - *coming in May!*

Does this mean we get all 30 channels in May?


----------



## jsg

Is DirecTV expected to use the xips thruster to change orbits? What's the scale of how long the satellite's engine would operate to change to the higher orbit? (Minutes; hours; days?)

I assume that the TLE's computed from observations taken while the vehicle is being accelerated aren't terribly accurate/useful since the observations haven't really measured a static orbit but rather a dynamic situation. Is this true?


----------



## LameLefty

jsg said:


> Is DirecTV expected to use the xips thruster to change orbits? What's the scale of how long the satellite's engine would operate to change to the higher orbit? (Minutes; hours; days?)


F=ma. We know the mass the of the satellite, we know the force supplied by the XIPS thrusters. We can work out the acceleration (that is left as an exercise for the student since I don't feel like doing math today ). The velocity change is simply the acceleration multiplied by the time of the thrusting event.



> I assume that the TLE's computed from observations taken while the vehicle is being accelerated aren't terribly accurate/useful since the observations haven't really measured a static orbit but rather a dynamic situation. Is this true?


Yes.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jsg said:


> Is DirecTV expected to use the xips thruster to change orbits? What's the scale of how long the satellite's engine would operate to change to the higher orbit? (Minutes; hours; days?)
> 
> I assume that the TLE's computed from observations taken while the vehicle is being accelerated aren't terribly accurate/useful since the observations haven't really measured a static orbit but rather a dynamic situation. Is this true?


I'm pretty sure the xips don't run for days in an orbit change. I'm guessing in minutes or fractions of hours (1/2 hour or so).

But my estimate could still be high.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm pretty sure the xips don't run for days in an orbit change. I'm guessing in minutes or fractions of hours (1/2 hour or so).
> 
> But my estimate could still be high.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I posted this link somewhere before, either early on in this thread or late in the D11 thread, but it's still a good read:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


----------



## George_T

Can we limit the scientific bantering back and forth and focus on when and if the satellite has begun drifting? Just hard to sort through the multiple posts to get the facts re. D-12's status. Thanks in advance!


----------



## raoul5788

Carl Spock said:


> Yes.
> 
> Not to get this discussion too far afield, but listen to Plastic Fantastic Lover. Fast and loud, with Marty Balin spitting out the lyrics. I hear Joe Strummer in his delivery. The music is the Clash's funk with a good helping of Elvis Costello's and Graham Parker's love of soul.
> 
> I've always wanted to hear a funky punk band - State Radio comes to mind - tackle this song. They could rip it to shreads.
> 
> 3/5 Of A Mile In Ten Seconds is an even better example of the punk side of early Airplane, but that song has nothing to do with televisions. :grin:


IF they were punk, they were the first. Personally, I don't think there is a shred of punk in them, but that's me. You are entitled to believe it if you want to. To me, they are the best group of the 60's in their genre.


----------



## sigma1914

George_T said:


> Can we limit the scientific bantering back and forth and focus on when and if the satellite has begun drifting? Just hard to sort through the multiple posts to get the facts re. D-12's status. Thanks in advance!


Hard to read Post #1, which is updated with new info?


----------



## BudShark

George_T said:


> Can we limit the scientific bantering back and forth and focus on when and if the satellite has begun drifting? Just hard to sort through the multiple posts to get the facts re. D-12's status. Thanks in advance!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry - but this thread went through 3 weeks of "can we stop the non-scientific bantering and focus on the purpose of this thread which is the actual scientific FACT of what the sat is doing..."

What you seek is in the locked Sixto thread here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806

This thread WAS originally designed for scientific bantering. It drifted away from that and is finally returning... :grin:


----------



## Athlon646464

George_T said:


> Can we limit the scientific bantering back and forth and focus on when and if the satellite has begun drifting? Just hard to sort through the multiple posts to get the facts re. D-12's status. Thanks in advance!


Couple of choices for you -

1) Go to Post #1 & Post #2 of this thread

2) Look at this thread only: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174806

(Set up for folks only interested in breaking news.)

:eek2:


----------



## GoPokes43

LameLefty said:


> Um, that's not what Directv's statement was or is currently, and this is not the thread for it.
> 
> http://www.directv.com:80/DTVAPP/content/hd/channels
> 
> Now . . .
> 
> :backtotop


Chill out. I had a winking smiley and was just responding to the regular "insider" posts we see often.

But, since you're getting bent out of shape about it, DirecTV indeed stated in their most recent press release on the topic that "These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months" http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018

Oh, and my post was specifically regarding when D12 would be in place and operational. Is this thread about something else? Punk music maybe?

Sorry to offend you.


----------



## James Long

If you wish to talk about the "30 channels in May" please use the appropriate thread.
(Selected posts have been moved to that thread.)

If you wish to talk about the satellite, you're in the right place!

Thanks!


----------



## Sixto

Update #167 - similar, but is interesting that it's only 2 hours from last update and gap did change slightly.


----------



## nd bronco fan

The gap being 5 different in two hours is really interesting. Hopefully we get another update soon.


----------



## Avder

So are they firing maneuvering jets yet?


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Drift baby Drift! 
Drift baby Drift!
Drift baby Drift!


----------



## wmb

Avder said:


> So are they firing maneuvering jets yet?


Thats a definite maybe!


----------



## georule

Either she's gone on walk-about on her own, or here we go.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

SPACEMAKER said:


> Drift baby Drift!
> Drift baby Drift!
> Drift baby Drift!


Come on now slide baby slide!


----------



## Skyboss

georule said:


> Either she's gone on walk-about on her own, or here we go.


Its just a fart. Don't get too excited. :grin:


----------



## Lord Vader

Soon, folks. Very soon.


----------



## RagingBullFan

TLE #168 is Similar.



Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		04-28-2010 02:20:47
Orbit # at Epoch	128
Inclination		0.080
RA of A. Node		56.095
Eccentricity		0.0001898
Argument of Perigee	46.758
Revs per day		1.00271865
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 779 x 35 795 km
Element number / age	168 / 0 day(s)

Lon			76.0053° W
Lat			0.0254° N
Alt (km)		35 787.390


----------



## cforrest

Looks like D12 is going to be moving very soon. The FCC approved a whole bunch of Point of Communication earth stations, since all are call signs starting with E.

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=802426

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=802424

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=802431

A total of 10, those are just a few.


----------



## Sixto

Update #168 - similar.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

love new TLEs, cept when they say similar... lol... got my fingers crossed that when i check tomorrow at work it will say "New TLE, DIFFERENT, DRIFT has begun!"


----------



## I WANT MORE

Well, So much for that.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I WANT MORE said:


> Well, So much for that.


So much for what? :scratchin

Mike


----------



## ctaranto

brett_the_bomb said:


> ...got my fingers crossed that when i check tomorrow at work it will say "New TLE, DIFFERENT, DRIFT has begun!"


That.


----------



## I WANT MORE

So much for when brett_the_bomb checks today for "New TLE, DIFFERENT, DRIFT has begun!" Thanks for asking.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I WANT MORE said:


> So much for when brett_the_bomb checks today for "New TLE, DIFFERENT, DRIFT has begun!" Thanks for asking.


I see. 

Mike


----------



## twaller

This bird will start drifting tomorrow. Tom Robertson hinted at this last week when he posted that "Thursday is the new Wednesday" and something about Arbor Day, which the Arbor Day Foundation says is April 30. Just my take......could be wrong.


----------



## joed32

twaller said:


> This bird will start drifting tomorrow. Tom Robertson hinted at this last week when he posted that "Thursday is the new Wednesday" and something about Arbor Day, which the Arbor Day Foundation says is April 30. Just my take......could be wrong.


In his home state Arbor day is celebrated on Friday the 30th so I'm guessing Friday. He could have been joking though.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

twaller said:


> This bird will start drifting tomorrow. Tom Robertson hinted at this last week when he posted that "Thursday is the new Wednesday" and something about Arbor Day, which the Arbor Day Foundation says is April 30. Just my take......could be wrong.


Isn't the 30th on Friday? Where does Thursday come into Arbor Day? :scratchin

Mike


----------



## Carl Spock

Pretty tall frickin' tree to make it all the way up geosynchronous orbit.


----------



## jefbal99

Carl Spock said:


> Pretty tall frickin' tree to make it all the way up geosynchronous orbit.


Its the new theory for a space elevator, really tall trees


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Skyboss said:


> Its just a *fart*. Don't get too excited. :grin:


Is that a technical space acronym?

*F*alsely
*A*dvertised
*R*apid
*T*ransit

:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

jefbal99 said:


> Its the new theory for a space elevator, really tall trees


The Integral Trees, a decent (but out of print) book by Larry Niven about giant trees that live in freefall . . . not quite the same thing but fun.


----------



## Tom Robertson

twaller said:


> This bird will start drifting tomorrow. Tom Robertson hinted at this last week when he posted that "Thursday is the new Wednesday" and something about Arbor Day, which the Arbor Day Foundation says is April 30. Just my take......could be wrong.


I've lived in several states--don't take Utah as an example...

Alas, I had thought it would have started the move earlier. And calling the "Movers Connection" didn't help. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## georule

Skyboss said:


> Its just a fart. Don't get too excited. :grin:


Bummer. It was the two hour delta between readings that got me excited as much as the difference in gap. I figured if they had her moving they'd want confirmation of the impact of the squirt.


----------



## oldfantom

Tom Robertson said:


> I've lived in several states--don't take Utah as an example...
> 
> Alas, I had thought it would have started the move earlier. And calling the "Movers Connection" didn't help.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Maybe you need to try the refer a satellite friend program. Just make sure they have your satellite's VIN prior to the referral.


----------



## GoPokes43

georule said:


> Bummer. It was the two hour delta between readings that got me excited as much as the difference in gap. I figured if they had her moving they'd want confirmation of the impact of the squirt.


That may have been precisely why. But, the confirmation may have been for station keeping maneuvers rather than drift.


----------



## kmax

So are we close to "crunch time" in regards to number of days required to drift and "test" @ 103 before getting a channel or two on D12 to meet end of May deadline of rolling out the channels?


----------



## Tom Robertson

oldfantom said:


> Maybe you need to try the refer a satellite friend program. Just make sure they have your satellite's VIN prior to the referral.


!rolling

And be sure to call the correct phone number. 

<mutters> now, I know I had that number right here somewhere...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Tom Robertson said:


> I've lived in several states--don't take Utah as an example...
> 
> Alas, *I had thought it would have started the move earlier*. And calling the "Movers Connection" didn't help.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You mean you didn't *know*???? Your earlier post was just a *guess*????

Boy, I'm gonna have to take what the mods say with a grain of salt from now on.:nono2: My faith is completely destroyed.


----------



## Tom Robertson

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> You mean you didn't *know*???? Your earlier post was just a *guess*????
> 
> Boy, I'm gonna have to take what the mods say with a grain of salt from now on.:nono2: My faith is completely destroyed.


Just be sure to limit your sodium intake. 

Alas, I don't get _all_ the information. Thankfully, I don't get _all_ the information-- I don't really want to know what the exact temperature of the Xips thruster #4 at every moment. 

And much of the guesswork here is about what I meant--not about what I intended not to say.  

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Neural762

jefbal99 said:


> Its the new theory for a space elevator, really tall trees


This image of D12 just came across from Starfleet intelligence.


----------



## jefbal99

LameLefty said:


> The Integral Trees, a decent (but out of print) book by Larry Niven about giant trees that live in freefall . . . not quite the same thing but fun.


Lefty, you are just a wealth of info. Glad you are around and contribute here 



Neural762 said:


> This image of D12 just came across from Starfleet intelligence.


Love the Crystalline Entity from TNG. Lore and the CE trying to take over the Universe


----------



## Sixto

Update #169 - starting to spread a little wider.


----------



## HoTat2

jefbal99 said:


> ... Love the Crystalline Entity from TNG. Lore and the CE trying to take over the Universe


Yeah ... me too; 

Although I thought in the episode scenario placing an a grieved Mother who's son was killed by the CE as head of the scientific team to investigate it was dumb. You have got to know there's a tremendous risk she may rig something to try an retaliate against it, which she successfully did.

But I guess in the 24th century humanity is to have allegedly evolved beyond such untrustworthiness 

OK; :backtotop


----------



## PWenger

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, I don't get _all_ the information. Thankfully, I don't get _all_ the information-- I don't really want to know what the exact temperature of the Xips thruster #4 at every moment.
> 
> And much of the guesswork here is about what I meant--not about what I intended not to say.


You used to be a Presidential speech writer, didn't you?


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> Update #169 - starting to spread a little wider.


The gap at 21 km is the most since it reached 76deg. It's on the move!


----------



## Tom Robertson

PWenger said:


> You used to be a Presidential speech writer, didn't you?


 No, tho in this case I'll accept that as a compliment to what I'm trying not to do. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

PhilS said:


> The gap at 21 km is the most since it reached 76deg. It's on the move!


It may be an indication, but will wait for D12 to get outside 76.99° before declaring movement.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

Sixto said:


> It may be an indication, but will wait for D12 to get outside 76.99° before declaring movement.


i knew i had a good feeling about checking today at work!!!


----------



## Athlon646464

A question for you engineer & scientific types from a j6p:

Is there an 'inverse' scientific law or law of physics that says the more D12 drifts, the less this thread will?

In any event, it looks as though we are about to find out!

:eek2::hurah::eek2:


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> F=ma. We know the mass the of the satellite, we know the force supplied by the XIPS thrusters. We can work out the acceleration (that is left as an exercise for the student since I don't feel like doing math today ). The velocity change is simply the acceleration multiplied by the time of the thrusting event.
> 
> Yes.


Ok, I'll take the bait. That means the XIPS thrusters will run for 34.735773239118 hours.

Ernei


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> Ok, I'll take the bait. That means the XIPS thrusters will run for 34.735773239118 hours.
> 
> Ernei


Fail. You didn't show your work. :nono:

And you misspelled your own name. :lol:



Actually, we don't even know the current mass of the satellite; we could make a decent guess but that's too much work for me too; plus the accelerations make not be constant - the satellite controllers could easily decide to make multiple trajectory adjustments as they drift.

Still, it's fun to think about.


----------



## bobnielsen

165 mN of force, several megagrams of satellite--feel the G's!


----------



## jilardi2

Ernie said:


> Ok, I'll take the bait. That means the XIPS thrusters will run for 34.735773239118 hours.
> 
> Ernei


someone double check that cause i think he spelled his name wrong


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> It may be an indication, but will wait for D12 to get outside 76.99° before declaring movement.


Yep, the increasing gap could be a sign of D12 entering an elliptical transfer orbit, but will wait and see ...


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> Yep, the increasing gap could be a sign of D12 entering an elliptical transfer orbit, but will wait and see ...


Certainly hoping!


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> It may be an indication, but will wait for D12 to get outside 76.99° before declaring movement.


I'd take 76.26°, isn't the 76° STA specified to stay within .25° of 76?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> I'd take 76.26°, isn't the 76° STA specified to stay within .25° of 76?


Per STA, must stay within .05° of 76°.

We have seen a little above 76.05° during testing, would like to see 77°.


----------



## ATARI

So is it 'spreading' or 'drifting'?

I'm so confused


----------



## P Smith

Not drifting yet.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

it appears that i may be drifting, but untill it hits 77, sixto is leary to say it started since it has moved around a bit before.


----------



## Sixto

brett_the_bomb said:


> it appears that i may be drifting, but untill it hits 77, sixto is leary to say it started since it has moved around a bit before.


Correct Sir.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

brett_the_bomb said:


> *it appears that i may be drifting*, but untill it hits 77, sixto is leary to say it started since it has moved around a bit before.


:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> So is it 'spreading' or 'drifting'?
> 
> I'm so confused


The spreading is definitely a sign of drifting, but we can't be sure if it is _the drifting_ until the spreading drifts larger...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I know that a couple years ago, I stopped exercising as much and I started spreading.


----------



## LameLefty

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know that a couple years ago, I stopped exercising as much and I started spreading.


About 2-1/2 years ago Mrs. Lefty got tired of the spreading, put me on a diet and bought me a Bowflex.


----------



## Lt Disher

I thought drifting meant changing latitude. The last report still has it at 76.03. Maybe we need a definition of drift.

Edit: As pointed out by LameLefty below, I should have said Longitude.


----------



## LameLefty

Lt Disher said:


> I thought drifting meant changing latitude. The last report still has it at 76.03. Maybe we need a definition of drift.


Longitude (East-West), not Latitude (North-South).

That said, the increasing eccentricity of the orbit since yesterday didn't happen by accident, despite the Negative Nellies.


----------



## radiomandc

Lt Disher said:


> I thought drifting meant changing latitude. The last report still has it at 76.03. Maybe we need a definition of drift.


Where are you getting your information?


----------



## LameLefty

radiomandc said:


> Where are you getting your information?


Read the first post of this thread. It always has the latest information.


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> ...
> That said, the increasing eccentricity of the orbit since yesterday didn't happen by accident, despite the Negative Nellies.


Yes it did...it happened because D12 is broke, remember? :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> The spreading is definitely a sign of drifting, but we can't be sure if it is _the drifting_ until the spreading drifts larger...


I catch your drift.


----------



## Lt Disher

LameLefty said:


> Longitude (East-West), not Latitude (North-South).
> 
> That said, the increasing eccentricity of the orbit since yesterday didn't happen by accident, despite the Negative Nellies.


Yup, sorry about the mistake. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## Sixto

With current gap, D12 gets to 103° on 12/22/2010.

So we need a little more spread.


----------



## bruinfever

Tom Robertson said:


> The spreading is definitely a sign of drifting, but we can't be sure if it is _the drifting_ until the spreading drifts larger...


I get your drift...What's the spread on this thing spreading before the weekend?


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> With current gap, D12 gets to 103° on 12/22/2010.
> 
> So we need a little more spread.


Now, I need a little more science, please. I have assumed that the gap referred to the difference in altitude of the orbit from high point to low point, but still always at 76 degrees. I'm probably not visualizing this correctly. Does gap refer to changes in longitude?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Sixto said:


> With current gap, D12 gets to 103° on 12/22/2010.
> 
> So we need a little more spread.


Woohoo, more HD for Christmas!


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> With current gap, D12 gets to 103° on 12/22/2010.
> 
> So we need a little more spread.


Is this now a gambling thread?  What is the point spread on D12 leaving 76 (+1 degree) by midnight ET?


----------



## LameLefty

Lt Disher said:


> Now, I need a little more science, please. I have assumed that the gap referred to the difference in altitude of the orbit from high point to low point, but still always at 76 degrees. I'm probably not visualizing this correctly. Does gap refer to changes in longitude?


The "gap" that Sixto mentions in his tabulated data is indeed the difference between the apogee (high point) and perigee (low point) of the orbit. "Drifting" is what a satellite very close in overall altitude to the geosynchronous belt does when it raises or lowers its orbit slightly to move to another orbital location.


----------



## Sixto

Lt Disher said:


> Now, I need a little more science, please. I have assumed that the gap referred to the difference in altitude of the orbit from high point to low point, but still always at 76 degrees. I'm probably not visualizing this correctly. Does gap refer to changes in longitude?


"Gap" is just a term that I made up to make it easy to track.

Geostationary needs a gap near 0 at 35,786km, which would be both apogee and perigee at/near 35,786km.

In order to drift fairly quickly, the orbit needs to be raised.

The satellite always drifts a little tiny bit, and a very small amount of fuel is used to keep it in place.

With the current gap of 21, D12 would eventually get to 103, but it would take many months.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bruinfever said:


> I get your drift...What's the spread on this thing spreading before the weekend?


Vegas doesn't have the spread yet, London is already closed for the day. We'll have to keep watching the TLEs for now...


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> "Gap" is just a term that I made up to make it easy to track.
> 
> Geostationary needs a gap near 0 at 35,786km, which would be both apogee and perigee at/near 35,786km.
> 
> In order to drift fairly quickly, the orbit needs to be raised, which would mean the gap would increase significantly.
> 
> The satellite always drifts a little tiny bit, and a very small amount of fuel is used to keep it in place.
> 
> With the current gap of 21, D12 would eventually get to 103, but it would take many months.
> 
> Awaiting a much more significant gap, which would mean a raised orbit, which would cause a quicker drift.


Good explanation. Thanks to you and Lefty.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> "Gap" is just a term that I made up to make it easy to track.
> 
> Geostationary needs a gap near 0 at 35,786km, which would be both apogee and perigee at/near 35,786km.
> 
> In order to drift fairly quickly, the orbit needs to be raised, which would mean the gap would increase significantly.
> 
> The satellite always drifts a little tiny bit, and a very small amount of fuel is used to keep it in place.
> 
> With the current gap of 21, D12 would eventually get to 103, but it would take many months.
> 
> *Awaiting a much more significant gap, which would mean a raised orbit, *which would cause a quicker drift.


Umm, it's too enthusiastic . Perigee should change (raise) too, not just a increasing the gap. 
It's not enough for moving to 103W.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Tom, I'll take D12 -1.5 over Green Bay.

Thanks.


----------



## loudo

Should D12 be entered in the Kentucky Derby, Saturday?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Umm, it's too enthusiastic . Perigee should change (raise) too, not just a increasing the gap.
> It's not enough for moving to 103W.


Not necessarily. You can have a supersynchronous orbit no matter what the perigee is, if the apogee is high enough.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> Umm, it's too enthusiastic . Perigee should change (raise) too, not just a increasing the gap.
> It's not enough for moving to 103W.


Plug the data into Orbitron and that is the prediction.
The current TLE also places E14 at 119 on October 18th.

Neither move would be recommended due to other satellites in the belt.
(Unless of course everyone else moved out of the way.  )



LameLefty said:


> Not necessarily. You can have a supersynchronous orbit no matter what the perigee is, if the apogee is high enough.


If perigee is lower than the Clark belt wouldn't one run the risk of collision the next time the path passes through the belt?
(Unless the only "pass through" predicted will be when it nears the destination.)


----------



## flyingtigerfan

LameLefty said:


> Not necessarily. You can have a supersynchronous orbit no matter what the perigee is, if the apogee is high enough.


Your next question will be, "does supersynchronous mean that it's a really really synchronous orbit?"

And your answer should be, "Yes. Yes, it does."


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Umm, it's too enthusiastic . Perigee should change (raise) too, not just a increasing the gap.
> It's not enough for moving to 103W.


True, but it depends.

May be small gap, with raised apogee and perigee.

We'll see what path they take, and how quick.


----------



## LameLefty

flyingtigerfan said:


> Your next question will be, "does supersynchronous mean that it's a really really synchronous orbit?"
> 
> And your answer should be, "Yes. Yes, it does."


:lol:

How 'bout, "You can have an orbit with a period greater than 'one day' without raising the perigee, if your apogee is high enough."


----------



## Sixto

SpaceComo said:


> Ok, I said no math on Good-Friday, but could not hold my water. I fabricated a *Drift Simulation TLE*. This is one of a million perturbations that could drift D12 to 102.765° (103, its new home). I modeled this TLE in STK but it should work in most SGP4 propagators. If you are just plain bored, but boss won't let you leave your office until 4:30 like me! and want to run it, here are the assumptions for it to work:
> 
> 1 - Must run it from 3 APR 00:00:00 UTC to 23 APR 00:00:00 UTC (20 days exactly).
> 
> 2 - If you want to run it other times then you must adjust the "Mean Anomaly 115.15" to make it start at 76.04°.
> 
> 3 - If you want to run it for something different than 20 days, you must adjust the "Mean Motion 0.99903".
> 
> 4 - If you edited the TLE you may or may-not need to adjust the sumcheck depending if your propagator cares about that.
> 
> DIRECTV 12-Drift
> 1 36131U 09075A 10093.00000002 -.00000263 00000-0 99999-4 0 1274
> 2 36131 0.0461 0.0001 0001372 0.0001 115.1500 0.99903000000016
> 
> *Remember I said this is a simulation, it is NOT a real event* (at least best I know anyway).
> 
> TLE is also a file attachment below.
> 
> Have fun, I am done for the week. I am headed out to ride my bicycle on this beautiful east coast afternoon.:grin:


The guesstimate Drift TLE from a month ago had perigee/apogee at 35,885/35896 for a 20 day Drift.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> If perigee is lower than the Clark belt wouldn't one run the risk of collision the next time the path passes through the belt?
> (Unless the only "pass through" predicted will be when it nears the destination.)


Maybe. It depends to a very great deal on the exact orbital parameters: how much the apogee was raised, what the resulting orbital period is, and how fast the drift rate is.

That said, I was just picking nits with P Smith (since he seems so fond of them himself  ). The way I _expect_ Boeing's satellite controllers to make the drift is to raise both elements of the orbit by a measurable amount. If not, however (*), I won't be totally surprised.

(*) These people have access to high-end (and sometimes proprietary) tools for spacecraft mission planning that take into account all other known GSO objects and space debris that might intersect the GSO vicinity, and they know how to use them. There's any number of things they _could_ do if they really want to in getting from Point A to Point B.


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> These people have access to high-end (and sometimes proprietary) tools for spacecraft mission planning that take into account all other known GSO objects and space debris that might intersect the GSO vicinity, and they know how to use them. There's any number of things they _could_ do if they really want to in getting from Point A to Point B.


It would be amazing to see them try (and succeed). Going between orbital slots and other orbital objects would be a major challenge.

Wasn't Boeing the company with the lunar sling shot that could have saved AMC-14 if the owners would have been able to use it (without violating the patent/copyright)? Smart folks.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> It would be amazing to see them try (and succeed). Going between orbital slots and other orbital objects would be a major challenge.


We (the public at large) will never know the real nitty-gritty details of what they do, so if they do anything fancier than just raise slide up and then back down we'll never see it - it'll be lost in the gaps between TLE releases.



> Wasn't Boeing the company with the lunar sling shot that could have saved AMC-14 if the owners would have been able to use it (without violating the patent/copyright)? Smart folks.


I believe you're correct; there was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth at the time, if I remember correctly. A lot of people felt that a patent like that was like trying to claim "original works" status on Newton's laws. The alternative position, however, was that it wasn't a patent on physics, just a unique method of applying physics to a class of problems (a procedural patent).

I come down on the side of the nay-sayers myself. I think patents are granted too broadly and that satellite operators ought to be able to do any series of maneuvers they want to.


----------



## oldfantom

It is amazing how quickly this thread goes from pudgy mods to "What the hell" math in no time flat.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Who you callin' pudgy? :lol:


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> Who you callin' pudgy? :lol:


It's okay Stuart. He wasn't refering to the "Super" moderators.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

(or the super-sized ones :lol


----------



## Lord Vader

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> It's okay Stuart. He wasn't refering to the "Super" moderators.


What the hell is a "super" moderator anyway, and what exactly makes them so "super"?  :lol:


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> I come down on the side of the nay-sayers myself. I think patents are granted too broadly and that satellite operators ought to be able to do any series of maneuvers they want to.


People should be able to benefit from their work and employers from their employee's work. Boeing put money into developing the technique. But it does seem odd to patent math. I can't remember if the problem was with Boeing refusing to allow their method to be used at any price or the owners not wanting to pay the price Boeing wanted. In any case, a satellite is pretty useless when it isn't in the right place.


----------



## James Long

Lord Vader said:


> What the hell is a "super" moderator anyway, and what exactly makes them so "super"?  :lol:


We, like you, have capes.


----------



## dcowboy7

loudo said:


> Should D12 be entered in the Kentucky Derby, Saturday?


Too late, entries were drawn noon time.


----------



## MartyS

Sixto said:


> Update #169 - starting to spread a little wider.


I've been spreading wider since I turned 40  :lol:


----------



## brett_the_bomb

James Long said:


> We, like you, have capes.


oooooo how do i get a cape????


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Who you callin' pudgy? :lol:


If the pants don't fit then....ummm

D12 is fine and will be on service as planned. 

Mike


----------



## MartyS

oldfantom said:


> It is amazing how quickly this thread goes from pudgy mods to "What the hell" math in no time flat.


I sometimes feel that I'm watching a professor Irwin Corey routine...


----------



## bb37

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know that a couple years ago, I stopped exercising as much and I started spreading.


I have the same problem. I find that I'm drifting more, too.



Sixto said:


> With current gap, D12 gets to 103° on 12/22/2010.


Sixto, be careful with that kind of talk. I'm surprised the web hasn't already gone viral with DBSTalk's declaration that D12 won't be "on" service until late December. Sheesh!


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

bb37 said:


> I have the same problem. I find that I'm drifting more, too.


Did someone say DRIFT?


----------



## yyygac2

James Long said:


> Wasn't Boeing the company with the lunar sling shot that could have saved AMC-14 if the owners would have been able to use it (without violating the patent/copyright)? Smart folks.


Boeing wanted SAS Americom (AMC-14's owner) to drop a lawsuit it filed against them in exchange for use of the technique. The details are here: http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/B...n_AMC_14_Lunar_Flyby_Salvage_Attempt_999.html


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> "Gap" is just a term that I made up to make it easy to track.
> 
> Geostationary needs a gap near 0 at 35,786km, which would be both apogee and perigee at/near 35,786km.
> 
> In order to drift fairly quickly, the orbit needs to be raised.
> 
> The satellite always drifts a little tiny bit, and a very small amount of fuel is used to keep it in place.
> 
> With the current gap of 21, D12 would eventually get to 103, but it would take many months.





Lt Disher said:


> Good explanation. Thanks to you and Lefty.


Another convenient way to visualize the "gap" which I use is the difference from the earth's geometric center to the center of the orbital ellipse. For a perfectly circular orbit this would be zero of course and only theoretical.

All realizable orbits however have a non-zero gap value with the greater the number the more elliptical the orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Another convenient way to visualize the "gap" which I use is the difference from the earth's geometric center to the center of the orbital ellipse. For a perfectly circular orbit this would be zero of course and only theoretical.
> 
> All realizable orbits however have a non-zero gap value with the greater the number the more elliptical the orbit.


This is technically called "eccentricity." The more an orbit varies from a perfect circle, the greater the eccentricity. In the TLE format, the eccentricity is the fourth term on the second line of elements.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> ... In the TLE format, the eccentricity is the fourth term on the second line of elements.


Now I get it. Next time whoever posts a TLE, can you please put some large sticky notes on those important numbers? The only number in those TLEs that had ever caught my eyes so far is the number "#", I could not figure out any other numbers.


----------



## James Long

jacmyoung said:


> Now I get it. Next time whoever posts a TLE, can you please put some large sticky notes on those important numbers? The only number in those TLEs that had ever caught my eyes so far is the number "#", I could not figure out any other numbers.


You can take a look at this page while we wait for the next TLEs ...
http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html

Decoded (as Sixto does in post #1) my favorite three lines are:
*Period 23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Perigee x Apogee	35 776 x 35 797 km
Lon 76.0253° W*

When the period gets away from 23h 56m the satellite will be moving.
When the Longitude goes past 77 it will confirm the satellite is moving.

When the Perigee (closest distance to Earth predicted) and Apogee (furthest distance from Earth predicted) is well above 35.7k the satellite will be moving. (As Sixto put it, "The guesstimate Drift TLE from a month ago had perigee/apogee at 35,885/35896 for a 20 day Drift.")

As long as it stays where it is, it's not moving.


----------



## georule

Lord Vader said:


> What the hell is a "super" moderator anyway, and what exactly makes them so "super"?  :lol:


It's a vBulletin (page all the way down to the bottom of the screen and see who provides the forum software) reserved word. What it means, is they are Prophets second only to the Three-in-One dieties known as "Admins". A moderator has to be given mod status on individual sub-forums individually. Super-Mods just have it across all forums and sub-forums, because they are just too hip for words, even if not quite ominiscient/omnipresent in their powers like an Admin is. There's other stuff that can be granted them and denied garden variety mods, depending on the all-powerful whim of the Admins. Like they could have the rights to send you to your room for lengths of time, or eternity, on their own authority without further prayer at the Admin altar.


----------



## jacmyoung

georule said:


> ...prayer at the Admin altar.


I tried that one time or another to overcome the curses, I guess they were total waste of time? Damn, even God had answered me a few times


----------



## P Smith

Vader,
You can add it your profiles if you wish - here http://www.dbstalk.com/images/ranks/supermod.gif


----------



## Newshawk

James Long said:


> We, like you, have capes.











*NO CAPES!*


----------



## jacmyoung

P Smith said:


> Vader,
> You can add it your profiles if you wish - here http://www.dbstalk.com/images/ranks/supermod.gif


Can you add sarcasm too please, P Smith?


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> This is technically called "eccentricity." The more an orbit varies from a perfect circle, the greater the eccentricity. In the TLE format, the eccentricity is the fourth term on the second line of elements.


But would it be fair to say this "gap" is actually the "eccentricity" or is it derived from it?

Considering that eccentricity is a unit-less ratio expressing an ellipse' foci distance to the center divided by its semi-major axis. Whereas the "gap" is the semi-major axis multiplied by the eccentricity.


----------



## jacmyoung

HoTat2 said:


> ...the "gap" is the semi-major axis multiplied by the eccentricity.


What a relief, I thought eccentricity was bad, but wait till you reach your gap. I guess I am lucky being merely eccentric.


----------



## matt

move move move move move move move move move move move move move move move


----------



## James Long

Effective Thu Apr 29 06:05:00 EDT 2010 


Code:


DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A   10119.42014427 -.00000255  00000-0  10000-3 0  1709
2 36131 000.0857 056.2180 0002295 053.9484 182.3129 01.00271479  1298

Still still (relatively).


----------



## Hdhead

OK, so, we have waited for week after week for this thing to move and still it sits there. I know the mantra that "all is well" but my brain keeps saying in the background that something is not as it should be. At this point in time I would like to hear from you knowledgeable people as to what your MOST CURRENT theory is for it to still be sitting at 76. Still testing is not a valid answer without specifics. Thanks for your responses.


----------



## Mavrick

MicroBeta said:


> If the pants don't fit then....ummm


Then you have pants on the ground pants on the ground.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Hdhead said:


> OK, so, we have waited for week after week for this thing to move and still it sits there. I know the mantra that "all is well" but my brain keeps saying in the background that something is not as it should be. At this point in time I would like to hear from you knowledgeable people as to what your MOST CURRENT theory is for it to still be sitting at 76. Still testing is not a valid answer without specifics. Thanks for your responses.


Just because your "brain keeps saying in the background that something is not as it should be" doesn't mean that something is wrong with D12. It's been stated literally hundreds of times here that D* has a plan and that everything is right on schedule. Stop being paranoid. The drift will begin before you know it.


----------



## ccsoftball7

SPACEMAKER said:


> The drift will begin before you know it.


Literally and figuratively...


----------



## ATARI

I've got this feeling that we are less than 24 hours from the start of drift.


----------



## Sixto

Update #170 - similar.


----------



## wavemaster

Still sitting at 76 as planned?


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

ATARI said:


> I've got this feeling that we are less than 24 hours from the start of drift.


"Feelings,
Nothing more than
Feelings,...."
:icon_band


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Update #170 - similar.


Well at least reading from the TLEs, D12 is bigger at its gap than E14. I know I should not mention E14, but there has to be some reference point for our J6Ps.


----------



## syphix

With the possibility of both D12 and E14 moving at the same time, is there _any_ chance of them colliding and the sky _really_ falling??

(tongue firmly in cheek)


----------



## TDK1044

On July 16th 1969, Apollo 11 took off for the moon. 8 days later on July 24th, it returned safely having completed all of its tasks. 

So how come it takes 5 months to get a simple communications satellite into its correct orbital position so that it can start transmitting television pictures?

I have a feeling that any of the original NASA engineers connected with the space program in the 60s are probably laughing their asses off! :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I presume the chance is astronomically small, and I will delete any posts that reference the movie _Dumb and Dumber_ because I'm just plain tired of having that quote brought back up.


----------



## LameLefty

TDK1044 said:


> On July 16th 1969, Apollo 11 took off for the moon. 8 days later on July 24th, it returned safely having completed all of its tasks.
> 
> So how come it takes 5 months to get a simple communications satellite into its correct orbital position so that it can start transmitting television pictures?
> 
> I have a feeling that any of the original NASA engineers connected with the space program in the 60s are probably laughing their asses off! :lol:


If Directv could devote a sizable fraction of the U.S. national economy and could afford a booster the size of the Statue of Liberty for launching each of its satellites, then your comparison might have some validity. :nono:


----------



## syphix

TDK1044 said:


> On July 16th 1969, Apollo 11 took off for the moon. 8 days later on July 24th, it returned safely having completed all of its tasks.
> 
> So how come it takes 5 months to get a simple communications satellite into its correct orbital position so that it can start transmitting television pictures?
> 
> I have a feeling that any of the original NASA engineers connected with the space program in the 60s are probably laughing their asses off! :lol:


If DirecTV wanted to, they could expend all the fuel on the satellite, reducing it's functional lifespan to about a month. Apollo 11 didn't need to stay in orbit, adjusting it's position routinely for 10-15 years. It's the difference between a 100 meter sprint and a marathon.


----------



## jacmyoung

TDK1044 said:


> On July 16th 1969, Apollo 11 took off for the moon. 8 days later on July 24th, it returned safely having completed all of its tasks...


But did it bring us any new HDs? Did it even happen? If not, what the difference anyway?


----------



## Lt Disher

syphix said:


> If DirecTV wanted to, they could expend all the fuel on the satellite, reducing it's functional lifespan to about a month. Apollo 11 didn't need to stay in orbit, adjusting it's position routinely for 10-15 years. It's the difference between a 100 meter sprint and a marathon.


I don't think this is a question of expending fuel. It is not the fuel for 20 days of drift that the poster is asking about. He is asking about the extended testing.


----------



## jilardi2

jacmyoung said:


> But did it bring us any new HDs? Did it even happen? If not, what the difference anyway?


It was on tv of course it hapened.

If it was on tv and it didn't happen why are you here waiting for more tv channels.


----------



## TDK1044

Lt Disher said:


> I don't think this is a question of expending fuel. It is not the fuel for 20 days of drift that the poster is asking about. He is asking about the extended testing.


Perfectly correct, Sir. This is not the first bird that D* has launched.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> If Directv could devote a sizable fraction of the U.S. national economy and could afford a booster the size of the Statue of Liberty for launching each of its satellites, then your comparison might have some validity. :nono:


A variation of my favorite quote to clients. With time and money, nearly anything is possible. It is always amazing how that shut down talks of altering code.

Another consideration is that NASA only had to consider the lives of their crew. D* risks the ire of the angry horde of the dbstalk mob. The use of so many angry face emoticons could bring the world to its knees.

That last part was also said tongue in cheek.


----------



## LameLefty

TDK1044 said:


> Perfectly correct, Sir. This is not the first bird that D* has launched.


But it is the first one with a mixed Ka-BSS payload that is designed to provide new capacity to existing bandwidth allocations, provide operational service in a new bandwidth, and provide in-orbit redundancy to existing satellites. That's a lot of roles for a single vehicle.


----------



## TDK1044

LameLefty said:


> But it is the first one with a mixed Ka-BSS payload that is designed to provide new capacity to existing bandwidth allocations, provide operational service in a new bandwidth, and provide in-orbit redundancy to existing satellites. That's a lot of roles for a single vehicle.


Perfectly valid points.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

...but if they didn't think they could do it, they wouldn't have done it.


----------



## jacmyoung

jilardi2 said:


> It was on tv of course it hapened.


If something is on TV it must be real?



> If it was on tv and it didn't happen why are you here waiting for more tv channels.


How do you let your beer go down smoothly otherwise? It may sound to you the reason I watch TV is ridiculous, but the way you believe in TV maybe more so


----------



## jilardi2

jacmyoung said:


> If something is on TV it must be real?
> 
> How do you let your beer go down smoothly otherwise? It may sound to you the reason I watch TV is ridiculous, but the way you believe in TV maybe more so


i was just joking and i went to edit to put a smiley, but it wouldn't let me add a smiley. 

i don't believe half the stuff i see in real life, let alone everything i see on tv.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> But it is the first one with a mixed Ka-BSS payload that is designed to provide new capacity to existing bandwidth allocations, provide operational service in a new bandwidth, and provide in-orbit redundancy to existing satellites. That's a lot of roles for a single vehicle.


How is this different from the BSS payload on D11?

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

MicroBeta said:


> How is this different from the BSS payload on D11?
> 
> Mike


That was a single experimental transponder which Directv was allowed to use only for testing purposes for a limited period of time. This is a limited but fully operational payload of four spotbeam transponders. Directv's license for this is for direct-to-home service, so one can assume that specific LNBs, SWiMs and/or receiving equipment will be deployed in the coming months within those geographic service areas. It will be interesting to hear of equipment in the field once that starts.


----------



## HoTat2

MicroBeta said:


> How is this different from the BSS payload on D11?
> 
> Mike


D11 has only a small experimental BSS payload of maybe one transponder and frequency for reverse band feasibility testing. I'm not even sure it ever was used to relay anything more than unmodulated carriers.

D12 has a fully operational package of 18 transponders on 4 spotbeams of course.


----------



## Hdhead

ATARI said:


> I've got this feeling that we are less than 24 hours from the start of drift.


Funny, I've had that same feeling for 3 weeks now.


----------



## ATARI

TDK1044 said:


> On July 16th 1969, Apollo 11 took off for the moon. 8 days later on July 24th, it returned safely having completed all of its tasks.
> 
> So how come it takes 5 months to get a simple communications satellite into its correct orbital position so that it can start transmitting television pictures?
> 
> I have a feeling that any of the original NASA engineers connected with the space program in the 60s are probably laughing their asses off! :lol:


D12 should have been parked and transmitting HD to all of us months ago.

It's not like it's rocket science or someth...

...oh, never mind.


----------



## Lt Disher

Since everyone is giving predictions as to when D12 will start drifting, I will add one. I think it will start before May 6. That is the day of the Conference Call and Webcast for First Quarter 2010 Financial Results and Outlook. I think it would be hard to repeat the "D12 is fine and will on service as scheduled." phrase unless they can show some movement. If it has not started by then, they will face some fairly aggressive questions.


----------



## TDK1044

Lt Disher said:


> Since everyone is giving predictions as to when D12 will start drifting, I will add one. I think it will start before May 6. That is the day of the Conference Call and Webcast for First Quarter 2010 Financial Results and Outlook. I think it would be hard to repeat the "D12 is fine and will on service as scheduled." phrase unless they can show some movement. If it has not started by then, they will face some fairly aggressive questions.


I'd say that is a fair assesment.


----------



## Piratefan98

I think it moved.


----------



## hidefman

Piratefan98 said:


> I think it moved.


Sorry George, tell your Dad no Festivus for the rest of us yet......:lol:


----------



## Coca Cola Kid




----------



## yosoyellobo

Newshawk said:


> *NO CAPES!*


Is she the lady boss in NCIS LA?


----------



## Jon J

yosoyellobo said:


> Is she the lady boss in NCIS LA?


Darn if she doesn't look like Heddy.


----------



## James Long

syphix said:


> With the possibility of both D12 and E14 moving at the same time, is there _any_ chance of them colliding and the sky _really_ falling??
> 
> (tongue firmly in cheek)


[D12] 76->103 119<-138 [E14]
A collision would require one or both of the satellites to overshoot their destinations.

There are always possibilities ... but very unlikely. 



SPACEMAKER said:


> The drift will begin before you know it.


Very true. The drift COULD have started just after the TLE was generated this morning ... the public won't see signs of it until after the next public TLE is released (or some TLE after the move begins).


----------



## georule

Lt Disher said:


> Since everyone is giving predictions as to when D12 will start drifting, I will add one. I think it will start before May 6. That is the day of the Conference Call and Webcast for First Quarter 2010 Financial Results and Outlook. I think it would be hard to repeat the "D12 is fine and will on service as scheduled." phrase unless they can show some movement. If it has not started by then, they will face some fairly aggressive questions.


I've been saying that for weeks. Engineers as a group (honorable exceptions, of course!) may not be the most socially gifted people, but they certainly understand "don't make life harder for the CEO".


----------



## Tele-TV

yosoyellobo said:


> Is she the lady boss in NCIS LA?


:lol: Linda Hunt. I always thought about Linda Hunt when I saw that character.


----------



## P Smith

Time to do new cleanup ...


----------



## Fog627

Newshawk said:


> *NO CAPES!*


*I found my crepe!*










:nono2: :nono2:


----------



## MikeR7

Tele-TV said:


> :lol: Linda Hunt. I always thought about Linda Hunt when I saw that character.


My favorite Hunt was Mike. :hurah:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, OK, let's reel it in a little bit.


----------



## Jon J

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, OK, let's reel it in a little bit.


C'mon. Just when I was getting hooked.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, you know, we're all real excited and everything, and we all wish we could go up there and start pushing, but you know, let's just calm it down just a tad, ok?


----------



## T-pole

Great info, thanks!


----------



## Doug Brott

I'd like to reiterate that it's time to come back to Earth (so to speak) .. Thank You


----------



## n3ntj

So, is D12 moving yet to its final destination? I can't tell from all of the recent postings..


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> The guesstimate Drift TLE from a month ago had perigee/apogee at 35,885/35896 for a 20 day Drift.


I did a quick math check... using a circular orbit with an altitude of 35,885 km will give a drift time of about 18 days. A circular orbit of 35,896 km would give a drift time of about 16 days. For 20 day movement, the circular orbit required would be about 35,875 km. The encouraging thing is that our numbers are about the same.

What I would be looking for as a sign that the drift is occurring is a change in the altitude to about 35,870+ km. The gap is not an important parameter - that is a circular orbit (0 gap) drifts.


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> What I would be looking for as a sign that the drift is occurring is a change in the altitude to about 35,870+ km. The gap is not an important parameter - that is a circular orbit (0 gap) drifts.


EXCEPT . . . inasmuch as it shows that stationkeeping has been relaxed and/or that the orbit is being adjusted. In other words, the increasing eccentricity isn't an accident.


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> EXCEPT . . . inasmuch as it shows that stationkeeping has been relaxed and/or that the orbit is being adjusted. In other words, the increasing eccentricity isn't an accident.


If the next TLE shows apogee = perigee = 35,890 km, is it drifting?


----------



## James Long

wmb said:


> If the next TLE shows apogee = perigee = 35,890 km, is it drifting?


As the Magic 8 Ball would say ... "All signs point to yes."

When you see those numbers (or similar) it should be west of 76 and on the move to 103.


----------



## RunnerFL

yosoyellobo said:


> Is she the lady boss in NCIS LA?


Yes, she did the voice.


----------



## damondlt

Did D* complete its channel moves?


----------



## RAD

damondlt said:


> Did D* complete its channel moves?


Yep, last week was the last of them.


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> Yep, last week was the last of them.


I wonder if now the D12 is ready to move then?

I wonder what HD channels we get first?


----------



## RAD

damondlt said:


> I wonder if now the D12 is ready to move then?
> 
> I wonder what HD channels we get first?


AFAKI the channel moves had nothing to do with when D12 would start moving to 103.

As for which channels we'll get 1st out of the list of channels DirecTV's listed as adding is a good question and probably the ones that know aren't talking.


----------



## LoopinFool

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, she did the voice.


Um, no.

Brad Bird (the writer/director) did Edna's voice. They talk a little about the casting in the DVD extras.

- LoopinFool

PS - The Incredibles won't be helping to move D12 to its new slot.


----------



## R0am3r

RAD said:


> AFAKI the channel moves had nothing to do with when D12 would start moving to 103.


Don't be silly. D12 hasn't moved because my H23s have not updated yet.

Come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. It's all ball bearings nowadays.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

i want a tle!


----------



## sportshermit

R0am3r said:


> Don't be silly. D12 hasn't moved because my H23s have not updated yet.
> 
> Come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. It's all ball bearings nowadays.


Filth Muck....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

brett_the_bomb said:


> i want a tle!


Here's the Latest TLE 

Mike


----------



## spear61

four(4) months since launch

whatever has been happening is probably not good news for Boeing/Directv. Boeing is on the hook for at least 6 months after launch (insured), and must be having problems certifying it operational. Hopefully, they are only having problems with redundant systems.


----------



## sigma1914

spear61 said:


> four(4) months since launch
> 
> whatever has been happening is probably not good news for Boeing/Directv. Boeing is on the hook for at least 6 months after launch (insured), and must be having problems certifying it operational. Hopefully, they are only having problems with redundant systems.


*Que the Chicken Little Clan*


----------



## mrsdrgn

spear61 said:


> four(4) months since launch
> 
> whatever has been happening is probably not good news for Boeing/Directv. Boeing is on the hook for at least 6 months after launch (insured), and must be having problems certifying it operational. Hopefully, they are only having problems with redundant systems.


If something was wrong they would not have announced the new hd channels. 
Relax!


----------



## Tom Robertson

mrsdrgn said:


> If something was wrong they would not have announced the new hd channels.
> Relax!


There you go making sense again... 

Who knows how much testing the FCC has requested for the BSS package. Could they do that without a formal STA request and confirmation? Could be... 

(No this is not a hint. It truly is a conjecture of some of the ramblings seen posted here.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

sigma1914 said:


> *Que the Chicken Little Clan*


And que the video.....


----------



## georule

MicroBeta said:


> Here's the Latest TLE
> 
> Mike


Call me. . . whatever. . .but they've had three days now to bring the bird back in from "wandering a bit" if they had any interest in doing so. They haven't. I find this fact Significant.


----------



## crabtrp

Any day now they are finally going to give up and send it into the atmosphere to burn up. I am leaving DirecTV.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

georule said:


> Call me. . . whatever. . .but they've had three days now to bring the bird back in from "wandering a bit" if they had any interest in doing so. They haven't. I find this fact Significant.


The permit is still good til May 26. Relax, it'll move "soon"


----------



## bobnielsen

The slight meandering could possibly be happening because they don't want to waste fuel keeping it precisely at the temporary location.


----------



## raoul5788

georule said:


> Call me. . . whatever. . .but they've had three days now to bring the bird back in from "wandering a bit" if they had any interest in doing so. They haven't. I find this fact Significant.


It could only be significant if you understood the reasons behind it. Do you?


----------



## TDK1044

I've had some fun posting in this thread, but I really don't think there is a problem with D12. I think the bird threw a few challenges at the ground team, and it took a bit longer than predicted to resolve or work around those issues.

I think D12 will start its drift in the first week of May, and we'll all be reaping the benefit in the months and years that follow.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

How much you wanna bet that EaglePC will be the first to "get" a signal from D12 at its new home?

He was the first to detect D10, if I remember correctly.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK boys, let's not slam people publicly. That sort of stuff makes me angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.


----------



## Lord Vader

What if we don't like you when you're not angry?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK boys, let's not slam people publicly. That sort of stuff makes me angry, and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.


Your Shadow Avatar is lookin' a little *Green*. :eek2:

Exactly how are TLE's generated. Is it automated? Are they generated from given data or directly from acquired data?

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Lord Vader said:


> What if we don't like you when you're not angry?


When I'm not angry I'm not as prone to rash acts.


----------



## FHSPSU67

wilbur_the_goose said:


> How much you wanna bet that EaglePC will be the first to "get" a signal from D12 at its new home?
> 
> He was the first to detect D10, if I remember correctly.


I'm pretty sure you're correct, and he detected it in the middle of the night. I don't think he ever slept during that saga


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Let's move on from discussion of EaglePC, please (getting angrier...)


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> When I'm not angry I'm not as prone to *rash* acts.





Stuart Sweet said:


> Let's move on from discussion of EaglePC, please (getting angrier...)


And back to your rash?!?!:lol:

Sorry. Couldn't help it.

My prediction is that D12 will start to drift the moment my plane takes off for Germany on Monday.


----------



## zudy

crabtrp said:


> Any day now they are finally going to give up and send it into the atmosphere to burn up. I am leaving DirecTV.


This is the exact crap we don't need.


----------



## PhilS

My guess is that they will finish testing today, the last day of the month. It's time to start the drift.


----------



## Doug Brott

And tomorrow they'll be screaming Mayday! Mayday!


----------



## Dave DFW

^ I guess we deserved that one.


----------



## ATARI

T-minus 4:00 hours until start of drift.


----------



## juan ellitinez

ATARI said:


> T-minus 4:00 hours until start of drift.


 source?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm guessing fertile imagination


----------



## ATARI

juan ellitinez said:


> source?


Wishful thinking with a dose of hope and a sprinkle of optimism.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> T-minus 4:00 hours until start of drift.


Could be, but how long is the hold at T-4:00:00?


----------



## jefbal99

ATARI said:


> Wishful thinking with a dose of hope and a sprinkle of optimism.


and a dash of insanity?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I can't wait to see Monday's status. 

New month, new moves...???


----------



## michaelruggeri

I am copying and pasting from the Directv twitter board.

Good news on D12, not so good news on AMCHD

Mike

@_nctrnl D 12 will be fully operational soon and you'll find a list of upcoming channels at http://directv.com/hdchannels
about 1 hour ago via Assistly in reply to _nctrnl

@petergould We continue to review our HD options but we do not have a deal in place to offer AMC HD yet. If that changes we'll let you know.


----------



## Doug Brott

While I have no clue what's going on with AMCHD .. it's entirely possible something could be in place before the Sat lands in it's service location. DIRECTV's Tweet suggests nothing either way other than the status of today.


----------



## Curtis0620

michaelruggeri said:


> I am copying and pasting from the Directv twitter board.
> 
> Good news on D12, not so good news on AMCHD
> 
> Mike
> 
> @_nctrnl D 12 will be fully operational soon and you'll find a list of upcoming channels at http://directv.com/hdchannels
> about 1 hour ago via Assistly in reply to _nctrnl
> 
> @petergould We continue to review our HD options but we do not have a deal in place to offer AMC HD yet. If that changes we'll let you know.


SO, they are going to operate it at 76 degrees and require a new dish to receive the new channels.

Oh wait, that is DISH that does stuff like that.


----------



## HIGHWAY

d12 will be on the move monday


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

HIGHWAY said:


> d12 will be on the move monday


source?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug Brott said:


> While I have no clue what's going on with AMCHD .. it's entirely possible something could be in place before the Sat lands in it's service location. DIRECTV's Tweet suggests nothing either way other than the status of today.


One thing I do know is that these contracts take a ridiculously long time to hammer out. The guys who do that for a living have got much more patience than I do.


----------



## oldfantom

Stuart Sweet said:


> One thing I do know is that these contracts take a ridiculously long time to hammer out. The guys who do that for a living have got much more patience than I do.


The guys that do that for a living bill by the hour.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I must disagree. Some of them are captive within DIRECTV.


----------



## Lt Disher

michaelruggeri said:


> I am copying and pasting from the Directv twitter board.
> 
> Good news on D12, not so good news on AMCHD
> 
> Mike
> 
> @_nctrnl D 12 will be fully operational soon and you'll find a list of upcoming channels at http://directv.com/hdchannels
> about 1 hour ago via Assistly in reply to _nctrnl
> 
> @petergould We continue to review our HD options but we do not have a deal in place to offer AMC HD yet. If that changes we'll let you know.


It is interesting that the link now talks about channels coming soon. It was linked to in past posts(April 27) when the page at the linked address said 'coming in May'. Evidently they are backing off that just a little.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

Stuart Sweet said:


> I must disagree. Some of them are captive within DIRECTV.


Like this?


----------



## sigma1914

Lt Disher said:


> It is interesting that the link now talks about channels coming soon. It was linked to in past posts(April 27) when the page at the linked address said 'coming in May'. Evidently they are backing off that just a little.


It says May on the right side in a box.


----------



## Athlon646464

sigma1914 said:


> It says May on the right side in a box.


It says 'beginning in May', so it looks like they've backed off on the 30 in May claim... 

The original announcement said that too. Then, for about a week it said 30 in May. Now they went back to beginning in May.

EDIT: could this be relevant to something up with D12?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Like this?
> 
> View attachment 21920


I don't know... an attorney I know says that's the right term for a lawyer who is a full-time employee of one company.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Upcoming HD channel chat belongs here


----------



## Lord Vader

Stuart Sweet said:


> When I'm not angry I'm not as prone to rash acts.


Personally, I can care less about your rash. They make creams and ointments for that.


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> And tomorrow they'll be screaming Mayday! Mayday!


Grace Jones.


----------



## jacmyoung

Lord Vader said:


> Personally, I can care less about your rash. They make creams and ointments for that.


But what about the chains on D12? Did they forget to break them loose or something?


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Doug Brott said:


> Mayday! Mayday!


What the hell is that for?

Why, that's the Russian New Year. We can have a parade and serve hot hors d'oeuvres...


----------



## CorpITGuy

ARKDTVfan said:


> What the hell is that for?
> 
> Why, that's the Russian New Year. We can have a parade and serve hot hors d'oeuvres...


There's a sale at Penney's!


----------



## Lord Vader

May 1st--Polish Constitution Day.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"The new Oldsmobiles are in early this year..."
"Pier 1 Imports..."
"This mall has everything!"


----------



## netraa

Considering all the praise they got for adding Univision HD, and Telefutura HD...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176363

They are going to go ahead and join the party and move the bird on Cinco de Mayo....

yes, this is a WAG based on others SWAG's.

Thanks for your attention.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

CorpITGuy said:


> There's a sale at Penney's!


Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue!









"We laughed and laughed and laughed. Do you know what it's like to laugh like that?"
"Yes. Yes I do."

Liked this one so much, I changed my avitar.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> "The new Oldsmobiles are in early this year..."
> "Pier 1 Imports..."
> "This mall has everything!"


We're on a mission from God!


----------



## Sixto

You guys certainly have much free time. 

Status quo.

It will move when it moves, maybe already (last TLE 6am yesterday).

In the meantime, enjoying the Spring ...


----------



## brett_the_bomb

stellar update sixto... lol


----------



## James Long

zudy said:


> crabtrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any day now they are finally going to give up and send it into the atmosphere to burn up. I am leaving DirecTV.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the exact crap we don't need.
Click to expand...

There is 'crap' we need?



HIGHWAY said:


> d12 will be on the move monday


D12 is moving now ... at roughly 11,066 km/hr (6,876 miles/hr).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Everything is moving, relative to something. It is equally correct to say that D12 is stationary any we are all moving.


----------



## ATARI

TIMES UP!!

Where the new TLE to prove I'm right.

(or wrong)


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> It will move when it moves, maybe already (last TLE 6am yesterday).


Sometimes ignorance (not knowing) is bliss ... People can get upset again when we get a TLE saying it is still at 76. Until then they are just borrowing trouble from the future (and for all we know the move started yesterday just after the TLE).

E14's last update was 3am ET this morning (going nowhere yet). I suppose the worriers can say that no update from D12 means that trackers have lost contact with the satellite - or that the TLE is now secret instead of public because it is plummeting toward Earth. But there is no basis for that.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> You guys certainly have much free time.
> 
> Status quo.
> 
> It will move when it moves, maybe already (last TLE 6am yesterday).
> 
> In the meantime, enjoying the Spring ...


Maybe we have too much time, but we did not write this page...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1290293/


----------



## bb37

Stuart Sweet said:


> Some of them are captive within DIRECTV.


Ah, so they are paid by the hour whether they are working or not _and_ they get benefits.

Since everyone is making speculative predictions, I predict that D12 will be "on" service, well, when it's on service.


----------



## LameLefty

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue!
> 
> View attachment 21921
> 
> 
> "We laughed and laughed and laughed. Do you know what it's like to laugh like that?"
> "Yes. Yes I do."
> 
> Liked this one so much, I changed my avitar.


And let me be the first to tell you, that is a GREAT avatar! 

(Posted from my iPad  )


----------



## James Long

bb37 said:


> Ah, so they are paid by the hour whether they are working or not _and_ they get benefits.


Most people at that level seem to be working whether they are paid or not.


----------



## erosroadie

Stuart Sweet said:


> "The new Oldsmobiles are in early this year..."
> "Pier 1 Imports..."
> "This mall has everything!"


Blues Brothers?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

erosroadie said:


> Blues Brothers?


Give that man a Cigar. 

Mike


----------



## brett_the_bomb

LameLefty said:


> And let me be the first to tell you, that is a GREAT avatar!
> 
> *(Posted from my iPad  )*


i noticed this lefty. pretty fancy... i was just giving you the attention you wanted from that!


----------



## cartrivision

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> Guess I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue!


Your avatar is upside-down.


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> In the meantime, enjoying the Spring ...


The spring has been rough, pregnant wife, unending honey do list, no time for golf...

I'd like the winter back


----------



## Indiana627

I'm right there with you - a 1 month old at home now along with our 3.5 year old (but I wouldn't trade them for anything - not even more HD), yard work piling up, and today I helped my father in law rip off the porch roof on the house he rents out.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Everything is moving, relative to something. It is equally correct to say that D12 is stationary any we are all moving.


If so, what exactly are we waiting for?


----------



## brett_the_bomb

did we really not get a single new TLE today??? Is this a sign??? im finally starting to get a little ancy...


----------



## Sixto

brett_the_bomb said:


> did we really not get a single new TLE today??? Is this a sign???


Correct. Maybe.

(but this has happened before. a few times before.)


----------



## jefbal99

Indiana627 said:


> I'm right there with you - a 1 month old at home now along with our 3.5 year old (but I wouldn't trade them for anything - not even more HD), yard work piling up, and today I helped my father in law rip off the porch roof on the house he rents out.


Yeah, I've got the 19 month old too, wouldn't change it at all.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

Sixto said:


> Correct. Maybe.
> 
> (but this has happened before. a few times before.)


I will say this, it still nice to know your always present sixto even when i wouldn't expect you to be.


----------



## trdrjeff

This one time...at TLE camp...


----------



## prospect60

trdrjeff said:


> This one time...at TLE camp...


As embarrassing as it is, this made me laugh rather hard.


----------



## Hdhead

Come-in, Come-in, TLE, Over............


----------



## Sixto

For those curious about the longest time between TLE's:


Code:


  [B][U]Date[/U][/B]		       [B][U]+Hours[/U][/B]		  [B][U]Day#[/U][/B]
01/05/10  1:48 AM	71.94		  7.27
01/24/10  1:08 AM	64.77		 26.24
02/22/10 12:43 AM	61.26		 55.22
01/20/10 12:08 PM	54.17		 22.70
01/15/10 11:43 AM	53.65		 17.68
03/22/10  9:16 AM	51.47		 83.54
01/12/10 10:56 AM	46.88		 14.65
02/23/10 10:40 PM	45.94		 57.14
03/16/10 11:40 PM	45.63		 78.14
04/21/10  1:14 AM	45.42		113.20


----------



## tcusta00

Stuart Sweet said:


> Everything is moving, relative to something. It is equally correct to say that D12 is stationary any we are all moving.


Which is akin to saying you're the sane one and everyone else is crazy. :lol:


----------



## afulkerson

It has been almost two days now without a TLE. 

I think that it is drifting now and they don't want us to know that. :nono2:  That is why there is no new TLE's.


----------



## tcusta00

afulkerson said:


> It has been almost two days now without a TLE.
> 
> I think that it is drifting now and they don't want us to know that. :nono2:  That is why there is no new TLE's.


Quick, someone break out the telescope and check 'er out! :lol:


----------



## cebbigh

I remember being able to see Sputnik unaided back when the earth was young.


----------



## LameLefty

cebbigh said:


> I remember being able to see Sputnik unaided back when the earth was young.


... and dinosaurs roamed the plains? :lol:


----------



## leww37334

no news is good news, right? RIGHT?


----------



## Carl Spock

Only if you think April was a REALLY good month.


----------



## HerntDawg

trdrjeff said:


> This one time...at TLE camp...


Close to the best movie series ever(Star Wars for me). Comedy wise for sure.

ROTFLMAO :lol:


----------



## MRinDenver

cebbigh said:


> I remember being able to see Sputnik unaided back when the earth was young.


The earth was old, but your eyes were young.


----------



## T-Hefner

C'mon already with the TLE ...I'm keeping my fingers crossed that were gonna have some good news when we get this TLE....That would be sweeeeeet


----------



## TBlazer07

cebbigh said:


> I remember being able to see Sputnik unaided back when the earth was young.


 Remeber Echo 1, the big air filled mylar balloon they literally bounced signals off? That lit up almost every night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Echo


----------



## TBlazer07

T-Hefner said:


> C'mon already with the TLE ...I'm keeping my fingers crossed that were gonna have some good news when we get this TLE....That would be sweeeeeet


Who (or what) organization generates these TLE's and (generally speaking) why would they NOT generate one?


----------



## P Smith

TBlazer07 said:


> Who (or what) organization generates these TLE's and (generally speaking) why would they NOT generate one?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-line_elements


----------



## TBlazer07

TBlazer07 said:


> Who (or what) organization generates these TLE's and (generally speaking) why would they NOT generate one?





P Smith said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-line_elements


So why would NORAD **NOT** generate a TLE? Does DirecTV call them and say "Hey Norad, keep it private." ?  :lol:


----------



## curt8403

TBlazer07 said:


> Remeber Echo 1, the big air filled mylar balloon they literally bounced signals off? That lit up almost every night.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Echo


long ago when Skylab was falling out of orbit and due to burn up in the atmosphere, someone in a bar called another patron "Skylab" and a major knockdown-Drag out ensued.


----------



## Wicked

How long will the drift take? Ofcourse if it is supposedly drifting..


----------



## P Smith

Wicked said:


> How long will the drift take? Ofcourse if it is supposedly drifting..


Discussed here last week - just scroll a couple pages back.


----------



## P Smith

TBlazer07 said:


> So why would NORAD **NOT** generate a TLE? Does DirecTV call them and say "Hey Norad, keep it private." ?  :lol:


Why not make a call to NORAD ?


----------



## Carl Spock

TBlazer07 said:


> So why would NORAD **NOT** generate a TLE? Does DirecTV call them and say "Hey Norad, keep it private." ?  :lol:


You think the conspiracy to hush up problems with D12 stops at NORAD and the US government? How foolish.

I, for one, welcome our evil alien overlords.


----------



## Sixto

The last D11 TLE was Wednesday, while D10 was today, D12 was Thursday, there's no regular schedule.

And no truth to speculation that DirecTV/Boeing is controlling the TLE release.


----------



## curt8403

Wicked said:


> How long will the drift take? Ofcourse if it is supposedly drifting..


 I "THINK" it will be about 2 - 3 weeks


----------



## TheRatPatrol

curt8403 said:


> I "THINK" it will be about 2 - 3 weeks


With a week or so of testing, so no new HD channel until May 26th, which still gives them the "beginning in May" time frame.


----------



## P Smith

It depends.


----------



## curt8403

TheRatPatrol said:


> With a week or so of testing, so no new HD channel until May 26th, which still gives them the "beginning in May" time frame.


 well, they could burn the midnight oil.


----------



## Davenlr

curt8403 said:


> well, they could burn the midnight oil.


Only if they are on the Gulf Coast.


----------



## curt8403

Davenlr said:


> Only if they are on the Gulf Coast.


 could also refer to the Aussie Band


----------



## TheRatPatrol

P Smith said:


> It depends.


On what?


----------



## curt8403

TheRatPatrol said:


> On what?


 on how fast directv wants to get the sat to it's new location, 
A small thrust will move it slowly, a longer thrust will move it faster, but use more fuel


----------



## TheRatPatrol

curt8403 said:


> on how fast directv wants to get the sat to it's new location,
> A small thrust will move it slowly, a longer thrust will move it faster, but use more fuel


Got it, thanks. Now if they would just start moving it. 

Although some have stated that it maybe moving now.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

I thought i heard some talk about TLEs being released and then updated later due to most of them being a prediction of some sort. (feel free to clarify if im wrong) So does that mean that the last TLE could actually be inacturate? and by that i mean any last TLE.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

No TLE update since early 4/29.

Wonder where the 5/3/10 TLE will show the bird on Monday....hmmm....


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wonder where the 5/3/10 TLE will show the bird on Monday


Wonder why the next TLE has to be on Monday, and not later this afternoon, or tomorrow, or Tuesday.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> Wonder why the next TLE has to be on Monday, and not later this afternoon, or tomorrow, or Tuesday.


Same reason there was not one yesterday....


----------



## ATARI

ATARI said:


> TIMES UP!!
> 
> Where the new TLE to prove I'm right.
> 
> (or wrong)


Still no TLE, so I could still be right about the drift starting yesterday.


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Same reason there was not one yesterday....


So what if the TLE creators have not released one for D12 in 60 hours? That doesn't mean the satellite is in trouble. (Although they have released three E14 TLEs over the past 60 hours ... although all that has served to do is confirm that E14 is not drifting as of 7am ish.)

That's probably the silver lining here ... a TLE could just confirm there was no change in the last 60 hours. Hope for the best that the next one will give better numbers not status quo.


----------



## TBlazer07

Carl Spock said:


> You think the conspiracy to hush up problems with D12 stops at NORAD and the US government? How foolish.
> 
> I, for one, welcome our evil alien overlords.


I was speaking in generalities. Frankly I don't give a hoot about D12 or D19 for that matter because I have enough HD programming to last me a lifetime. 12 more sports channels, PPV's or even The Eastern North African Female Less than 2 TON Elephant With 3 Tusk Channel in HD really doesn't interest me. 

What I was just wondering was how the "TLE SYSTEM" worked. Considering it is run by NORAD I would think a schedule is a schedule and was curious as to why they wouldn't have data for a period of days. Maybe THEIR systems are down?


----------



## kevinwmsn

Maybe D* or Boeing is testing out the cloaking device. :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

TBlazer07 said:


> I was speaking in generalities. Frankly I don't give a hoot about D12 or D19 for that matter because I have enough HD programming to last me a lifetime. 12 more sports channels, PPV's or even The Eastern North African Female Less than 2 TON Elephant With 3 Tusk Channel in HD really doesn't interest me.
> 
> What I was just wondering was how the "TLE SYSTEM" worked. Considering it is run by NORAD I would think a schedule is a schedule and was curious as to why they wouldn't have data for a period of days. Maybe THEIR systems are down?


The "schedule" is the schedule of readings based upon expected movements. The "release" of TLE for an individual satellite is not scheduled. It is as needed to keep the movement well described.

So a satellite that is still in its box on its normal orbit doesn't get tracked nor described via TLE nearly as often as one that is moving relative to the other items in its neighborhood.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> So what if the TLE creators have not released one for D12 in 60 hours? *That doesn't mean the satellite is in trouble. *(Although they have released three E14 TLEs over the past 60 hours ... although all that has served to do is confirm that E14 is not drifting as of 7am ish.)


Nobody said it did.

TLE's have been skipped or delayed before. Often, when 2-3 days are missed...it is followed by a significant change.


----------



## bobnielsen

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nobody said it did.
> 
> TLE's have been skipped or delayed before. Often, when 2-3 days are missed...it is followed by a significant change.


Wasn't that what we observed with D10?


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> The "release" of TLE for an individual satellite is not scheduled. It is as needed to keep the movement well described.


That makes sense ... if the last TLE still describes where the satellite is today there is no need for a new description.

It also means that a) the satellite is still following the description from 60 hours ago and has not changed (no drift has begun), b) something is wrong with the path between where TLEs are created and the public websites where we can see them and the next TLE we see may be 172 or 173 ... or c) the current TLE (beyond 170) is being held as secret (that would be a long shot).

There is a good chance that D12 is still "parked". Hopefully confirmation or rebuke will come in the form of a TLE before the 72 hour mark passes.


----------



## Fog627

P Smith said:


> It depends.





P Smith said:


> Why not make a call to NORAD ?





P Smith said:


> Discussed here last week - just scroll a couple pages back.


A bit surly aren't we? Maybe someone needs his nap! :box: :sleeping:


----------



## RobertE

No TLEs are needed, the debris cloud has dissipated.


----------



## curt8403

RobertE said:


> No TLEs are needed, the debris cloud has dissipated.


debris cloud? do you mean that the D12 satellite had a warp core breach?


----------



## wmb

DirecTV 12 is playing Schrödinger's cat, again.


----------



## ATARI

wmb said:


> DirecTV 12 is playing Schrödinger's cat, again.


:lol:


----------



## Ernie

James Long said:


> That makes sense ... if the last TLE still describes where the satellite is today there is no need for a new description.
> 
> It also means that a) the satellite is still following the description from 60 hours ago and has not changed (no drift has begun), b) something is wrong with the path between where TLEs are created and the public websites where we can see them and the next TLE we see may be 172 or 173 ... or c) the current TLE (beyond 170) is being held as secret (that would be a long shot).
> 
> There is a good chance that D12 is still "parked". Hopefully confirmation or rebuke will come in the form of a TLE before the 72 hour mark passes.


There is another reason that everyone could hope for. The TLE's describe a stable orbit. While a space object is maneuvering, its not possible to produce a meaningful TLE because the orbit is constantly changing. After it has stopped thrusting, then it takes several additional observations to confirm that is has stopped maneuvering and determine the orbital parameters. My calculations we be way off, but I guestimate that there will be about 68 hours (divided into 2 or more "sessions") of XIPS thrusting in the orbit raising portion of the drift. So, maybe this is a good sign.

Ernie


----------



## James Long

Ernie said:


> While a space object is maneuvering, its not possible to produce a meaningful TLE because the orbit is constantly changing.


A nice thought, but how many TLEs were issued in the initial days of launch where each maneuver seemed to be tracked. If something is changing it is best to have some report on it.

Besides, changing orbits shouldn't take multiple maneuvers too hard to keep track of over three days. It should be a simple burn to change orbits. The complicated burns come at the end where an exact positioning at the destination is required without interfering with the other satellites already there.


----------



## Dolly

I feel very out of place in this thread because I don't understand a lot of the things being posted about :blush: However, just by reading the timeline in Post #1 I don't see how we can get new HD Channels in May?


----------



## James Long

Dolly said:


> I feel very out of place in this thread because I don't understand a lot of the things being posted about :blush: However, just by reading the timeline in Post #1 I don't see how we can get new HD Channels in May?


I wouldn't worry about DirecTV missing the end of May unless we're still discussing D12 at 76 next Sunday morning.
Hopefully there will be better news soon ... but so far no bad news.


----------



## afulkerson

No new TLE.


----------



## reweiss

wmb said:


> DirecTV 12 is playing Schrödinger's cat, again.


LOL... I am pretty sure we safely assume this cat is not dead.


----------



## James Long

afulkerson said:


> No new TLE.


There have been new TLEs, just not a new one for D12 (yet).

Patience please!


----------



## Hdhead

A couple days ago Satracer was here and said "wormhole". It now appears he wasn't joking.:eek2:


----------



## georule

Well we're movin on up,
To the west side.
To a deluxe apartment in the sky.
Movin on up,
To the west side.
We finally got a piece of the pie.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> There have been new TLEs, just not a new one for D12 (yet).
> 
> Patience please!


Tommorow, tomorrow....

I love ya tomorrow....

It's only a day away....


----------



## T-Hefner

i think it has to be drifting if they still want to hit the may release of more HD.......20 days to drift, and a week or so to test... may hit the end of may but if it hasnt started drifting yet then it may be tough to hit the may release for HD.


----------



## TBlazer07

T-Hefner said:


> i think it has to be drifting if they still want to hit the may release of more HD.......20 days to drift, and a week or so to test... may hit the end of may but if it hasnt started drifting yet then it may be tough to hit the may release for HD.


DirecTV said "starting in May." All they need to have is 1 HD channel this month and they've met their "starting in May" advertising. I hear "The Cows from the Southern Midwest Whose Names Begin with A channel" in HD starts next week so that should cover it for a while. They don't even need D12 for that. :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Ernie said:


> There is another reason that everyone could hope for. The TLE's describe a stable orbit. While a space object is maneuvering, its not possible to produce a meaningful TLE because the orbit is constantly changing. After it has stopped thrusting, then it takes several additional observations to confirm that is has stopped maneuvering and determine the orbital parameters. My calculations we be way off, but I guestimate that there will be about 68 hours (divided into 2 or more "sessions") of XIPS thrusting in the orbit raising portion of the drift. So, maybe this is a good sign.
> 
> Ernie





reweiss said:


> LOL... I am pretty sure we safely assume this cat is not dead.


I like Ernie's theory, if so, "cat" is not a correct description, it is either "rabbit" or "turtle", depending on what you want to call E14


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

TBlazer07 said:


> DirecTV said "starting in May." All they need to have is 1 HD channel this month and they've met their "starting in May" advertising. I hear "The Cows from the Southern Midwest Whose Names Begin with A channel" in HD starts next week so that should cover it for a while. They don't even need D12 for that. :lol:


We're getting RFD HD???


----------



## bjlc

I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks.. but come on.. this is nuts.. just stupid.. 

send up a missile and shoot this dead bird down and get another one up there. 

this is worst then using SEA LAUNCH.. with Sea Launch at least you knew the bird was DEAD .. RIGHT NOW..


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bjlc said:


> I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks.. but come on.. this is nuts.. just stupid..
> 
> send up a missile and shoot this dead bird down and get another one up there.
> 
> this is worst then using SEA LAUNCH.. with Sea Launch at least you knew the bird was DEAD .. RIGHT NOW..




D12 is fine, and had some new special equipment on board that required extra testing while at 76. Its on time for a May 2010 activation at 103. The month is still young.

This kind of continued "panic syndrome" is amazing....especially if anyone bothers to read the first and second posts to know what is *really* going on.

Yet we keep hearing from the naysayers. Unreal.


----------



## stephenC

Coca Cola Kid said:


> We're getting RFD HD???


Yee-Haw. Big Joe's Polka Fest in HD. I love it.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> D12 is fine, and had *some new special equipment on board* that required extra testing while at 76. Its on time for a May 2010 activation at 103. The month is still young.
> 
> This kind of continued "panic syndrome" is amazing....especially if anyone bothers to read the first and second posts to know what is *really* going on.
> 
> Yet we keep hearing from the naysayers. Unreal.


Like anti-spacecraft missiles. :eek2: Test target: 77. 

[Same time E14 begin its drift, should finish it in 20 days.]


----------



## Sixto

Good thing we're not tracking D11, the last D11 TLE was 118.22 (Wed 2am ET).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Good thing we're not tracking D11, the last D11 TLE was 118.22 (Wed 2am ET).


No kidding. :lol:

The only thing I'm tracking is YOUR TLE REPORTS.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

bjlc said:


> I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks.. but come on.. this is nuts.. just stupid..
> 
> send up a missile and shoot this dead bird down and get another one up there.
> 
> this is worst then using SEA LAUNCH.. with Sea Launch at least you knew the bird was DEAD .. RIGHT NOW..


The sky is falling, the sky is falling! :lol:


----------



## Sixto

A little snippet from the D11 TLE data before and after the D11 move:


Code:


TLE#135(08-01-08 05:37) 35,781 x 35,793 km (+47.1 hours,at 134.5 days,  99.22°)
TLE#134(07-30-08 06:33) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+47.6 hours,at 132.5 days,  99.21°)
TLE#133(07-28-08 06:57) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+19.5 hours,at 130.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#132(07-27-08 11:26) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-08 08:01) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-08 08:01) 35,767 x 35,783 km ([B]+113.6hours[/B],at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-08 14:24) 35,778 x 35,794 km ([B]+147.6hours[/B],at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-08 10:46) 35,785 x 35,787 km ([B]+96.6 hours[/B],at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-08 10:11) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-08 12:13) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-08 11:08) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
TLE#125(07-08-08 13:01) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 5.8 hours,at 110.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#124(07-08-08 07:15) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+47.5 hours,at 110.6 days, 100.71°)
TLE#123(07-06-08 07:42) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+48.8 hours,at 108.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#122(07-04-08 06:55) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+19.9 hours,at 106.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#121(07-03-08 10:59) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+46.7 hours,at 105.7 days, 100.70°)
TLE#120(07-01-08 12:15) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+26.4 hours,at 103.8 days, 100.70°)


----------



## T-Hefner

TBlazer07 said:


> DirecTV said "starting in May." All they need to have is 1 HD channel this month and they've met their "starting in May" advertising. I hear "The Cows from the Southern Midwest Whose Names Begin with A channel" in HD starts next week so that should cover it for a while. They don't even need D12 for that. :lol:


I understand that, but we all know that there capacity is pretty full, and it would require dropping a PPV or putting it on 110 or 119, witch they WONT do. They may drop a PPV, to add one channel and say they met there May HD blah blah blah.

But I still feel that when they put that statement out about HD , they are thinking D12 will be lit up by the end of May. Thats just my feeling on it...and if thats true, they dont have much time to make that May deadline, unless its already drifting and we wont know til next TLE.

-Tim


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> A little snippet from the D11 TLE data before and after the D11 move:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#129(07-21-08 14:24) 35,778 x 35,794 km ([B]+147.6hours[/B],at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
> TLE#128(07-15-08 10:46) 35,785 x 35,787 km ([B]+96.6 hours[/B],at 117.7 days, 100.68°)


So, it spent 4 days to do 1.47° move - perhaps we not have full cyclogram of that maneuvering, but seems it did quite a few of them rapidly and NORAD didn't bother to post those TLEs.


----------



## James Long

P Smith said:


> Sixto said:
> 
> 
> 
> A little snippet from the D11 TLE data before and after the D11 move:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#129(07-21-08 14:24) 35,778 x 35,794 km ([B]+147.6hours[/B],at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
> TLE#128(07-15-08 10:46) 35,785 x 35,787 km ([B]+96.6 hours[/B],at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, it spent 4 days to do 1.47° move - perhaps we not have full cyclogram of that maneuvering, but seems it did quite a few of them rapidly and NORAD didn't bother to post those TLEs.
Click to expand...

For those 1.47 degrees the five day old TLE accurately described the move. (Or at least, accurately enough.)

If D12 is not at 76 then the TLE is inaccurate as the position described still has it at 76.

Mr. Smith, are you still seeing TT&C from D12?


----------



## jsg

James Long said:


> A nice thought, but how many TLEs were issued in the initial days of launch where each maneuver seemed to be tracked. If something is changing it is best to have some report on it.
> 
> Besides, changing orbits shouldn't take multiple maneuvers too hard to keep track of over three days. It should be a simple burn to change orbits. The complicated burns come at the end where an exact positioning at the destination is required without interfering with the other satellites already there.


Exactly true--if the burns are the same. However others have said that this would be done in a way to conserve fuel. If they were using the liquid apogee engine (rocket fuel engine) the do the initial burns and will use the XIPS to drift there is no reason to look for the same thing. Ernie posted his predicted XIPS running times, and an earlier estimate was posted for about 36 hours, if I recall correctly. According to the specs, the LAE produces about 2700 times more power than the XIPS when the XIPS is in high power mode. I'm thinking that if they will use XIPS and if they expect to complete the drift in only 20 days they might use the spiral transfer orbit described in the Basics of Space Flight: Orbital Mechanics page posted earlier. If so they might run the XIPS for a couple of days, drift at a speed high enough to get to the destination in about 2 1/2 weeks for about 2 weeks, then run the XIPS in high power for another couple of days to lower the orbit, followed by adjustments to the orbit.

Then, I guess from postings here, they test the payloads again in place before putting the satellite in service.

Since I'm sticking out my neck this far, I'll make a further prediction: DirecTV will announce the service in the West using the new BSS package and will move quickly to deploy it as soon as the satellite is placed into service (assuming they have the FCC approval to use it. Is this under appeal?). They will looks like a rabbit rather compared to the tortoise they appear to be now.

Disclaimer: Just about all of this is from what I've read and I might have read the wrong stuff and then misinterpreted that. The rest I pulled out of thin air. I not only have no inside information, I have almost no information at all. Just having fun.


----------



## afulkerson

Below is from Orbitron. This was taken using the last TLE that we have. Each day the high point of the Lon has been increasing. Maybe Sixto could comment if they would start the drift this slow. It was Lon 76.0591 yesterday and today a high of 76.0630

DIRECTV 12
Lon	76.0629° W
Lat	0.0265° S
Alt (km)	35 785.230
Azm	169.7°
Elv	40.6°
RA	01h 52m 46s
Decl	-6° 30' 49"
Range (km)	37 725.496
RRt (km/s)	-0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	277.2° (196)
TA	277.1°
Orbit #	132
Mag (illum)	? (3%)
Constellation	Cet


----------



## P Smith

James Long said:


> For those 1.47 degrees the five day old TLE accurately described the move. (Or at least, accurately enough.)
> 
> If D12 is not at 76 then the TLE is inaccurate as the position described still has it at 76.
> 
> Mr. Smith, are you still seeing TT&C from D12?


That was my remark about TT&C channel of E14; I have no LOS to 76W.


----------



## P Smith

afulkerson said:


> Below is from Orbitron. This was taken using the last TLE that we have. Each day the high point of the Lon has been increasing. Maybe Sixto could comment if they would start the drift this slow. *It was Lon 76.0591 yesterday and today a high of 76.0630*
> ...


Insignificant change, absolutely had nothing to do with a move as a drift to target position.


----------



## yosoyellobo

For a long time I have wonder about the useful lifetime of let us say the D12. Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime? I have enjoy this thread for a long time and try to follow as much as I can with my limited math and physics.


----------



## P Smith

yosoyellobo said:


> For a long time I have wonder about the useful lifetime of let us say the D12. Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime? I have enjoy this thread for a long time and try to follow as much as I can with my limited math and physics.


On half ? :eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

yosoyellobo said:


> For a long time I have wonder about the useful lifetime of let us say the D12. Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime? I have enjoy this thread for a long time and try to follow as much as I can with my limited math and physics.


We don't have enough information to really even make an informed guess.


----------



## Tom Robertson

yosoyellobo said:


> For a long time I have wonder about the useful lifetime of let us say the D12. Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime? I have enjoy this thread for a long time and try to follow as much as I can with my limited math and physics.


I have no formal basis for this, just a mental number in my head that a fast move could take 3 years off the station-keeping life of the satellite.

Now, that number I literally pulled out of who knows where likely included a fast trip to stationary orbit immediately after launch. So maybe a fast transit would only reduce the life a year or two.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## yosoyellobo

LameLefty said:


> We don't have enough information to really even make an informed guess.


Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bjlc said:


> I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks.. but come on.. this is nuts.. just stupid..
> 
> send up a missile and shoot this dead bird down and get another one up there.
> 
> this is worst then using SEA LAUNCH.. with Sea Launch at least you knew the bird was DEAD .. RIGHT NOW..


If the bird was dead we'd know about it. Long before now. Boeing and DIRECTV both would have SEC filings long ago. Boeing as the warranty holder and DIRECTV as the one invested in the capacity.

Ergo, bird not dead.

Secondly, Marketing absolutely would not release a list of 30 channels if the satellite was crippled and going to take a long time to be verified for readiness. I've worked with Marketing departments--they likely have been asking the Engineering guys, "can we publish yet, can we publish yet, can we publish yet?" every day since before launch. You can just bet the marketing materials were ready since February, with regular touchups as the negotiations finalized on each new channel group.

Ergo, bird not crippled and definitely not dead.

Would DIRECTV like to have the bird transmitting from it's parking slot? Of course. (That's in the "well, duh!" range...) 

Would DIRECTV have liked to have the bird up for the olympics? You can betcha on that too.

But it is not. It will be soon. I ain't got no date on when, so I'll have to enjoy what I do got until I gots more. I'm ok with that. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ATARI

Any word from Vegas for what the odds are that the next TLE shows D12 drifting??


----------



## P Smith

ATARI said:


> Any word from Vegas for what the odds are that the next TLE shows D12 drifting??


SOON

For those who need watch something just moving and can't withstand in absence of D12 TLE, I would recommend take a look at E14.


----------



## smiddy

Ask spartanstew, he's a big gambling man. 

I am hopeful we hear something this week. The 5th being Wednesday when we had expected the drift to complete may be a then we'll get some nuggets of what has been going on or the drift will begin or something. Until then we sit, we wait, we find better things to do.


----------



## spartanstew

ATARI said:


> Any word from Vegas for what the odds are that the next TLE shows D12 drifting??





smiddy said:


> Ask spartanstew, he's a big gambling man.


Well, you wouldn't want to go by Vegas odds anyway. Vegas odds are not based on the chances that something will happen, they're based on money that the casino will pay winners - they have a profit margin built in.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

bjlc said:


> I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks.. but come on.. this is nuts.. just stupid..
> 
> send up a missile and shoot this dead bird down and get another one up there.
> 
> this is worst then using SEA LAUNCH.. with Sea Launch at least you knew the bird was DEAD .. RIGHT NOW..


:lol::lol::lol:

At first I thought you were serious.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I hardly believe DIRECTV12 is dead. That's just silly talk.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

Time at the parking meter at 76 ran out so the space cops placed a boot on D12. 
Sixto, can you get a collection started to pay the fine?


----------



## Groundhog45

Stuart Sweet said:


> I hardly believe DIRECTV12 is dead. That's just silly talk.


----------



## Ernie

yosoyellobo said:


> For a long time I have wonder about the useful lifetime of let us say the D12. Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime? I have enjoy this thread for a long time and try to follow as much as I can with my limited math and physics.


It could shorten it to days. In order for that to happen it would have to be raised to a higher orbit. That would put it well into the "graveyard". All kinds of junk to run into up there.

Ernie


----------



## HarleyD

Groundhog45 said:


>


Pining for the fjords.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

HarleyD said:


> Pining for the fjords.


He's not pinin', he's pass on....He has ceased to be! 

Mike


----------



## michaelruggeri

Is HarleyD my friend Harley D Barks?

Mike


----------



## ATARI

I noticed the title has changed to " - Drifting?"


----------



## smiddy

ATARI said:


> I noticed the title has changed to " - Drifting?"


Mmm, could be...


----------



## brett_the_bomb

if he changed the title, why no post about it??? maybe hes not telling us something!


----------



## pbg

bjlc said:


> I have been nice and quiet for a couple of weeks..


You can be sure everyone missed your thoughtful insights and contributions..


----------



## Sixto

It might be drifting, thus the change.

As we all await the answer.


----------



## alnielsen

Wasn't there a sat or two sitting at 103 that needed to make way for D12? Have they moved?


----------



## James Long

yosoyellobo said:


> Just how much would decreasing the drift from 20 to 10 day reduce it's useful lifetime?


Other than a few more potential days of HD for people who believe they have waited long enough ...
There is no reason to drift any faster than the original 20 day schedule at this time. There are plenty of days left in May.

There certainly isn't any need for a 10 day drift. Perhaps if this were two weeks from now and hitting the arbitrary "end of May" target was more important than the health of the spacecraft. But today, May 2nd, is not a day for panic.

Looking ahead to December ... what difference will it make if the "May" channels were released May 5th, May 26th or June 2nd? Sure there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth until they are release (that is more our problem than DirecTV's). There might be some residual bad feelings in June but by December will it really make a difference?

"May" could come June 30th and it wouldn't change much. Those that support DirecTV will keep supporting the company - those that don't will keep complaining. A few people will cross the line in both directions. Tis the nature of the forum.

A few weeks won't make that much difference in the big picture.



ATARI said:


> I noticed the title has changed to " - Drifting?"


Speculation based on the absence of data? 
I prefer speculation based on the presence of data.

There are those who know more than is seen in public data.
They are often proven right when the public data is released.


----------



## jaimecpcp

I want to thank all the people that are involved in keeping us informed.I think that by now there is something clear: after DTV's annoucements a few days back about the new channels for May it is certain that D12 is Ok and it will drift soon(maybe is drifting now).Since the drift will take 3 weeks and 99% of the times the new channels come on a Wednesday it is almost certain that on Wed. May 26 is when we will see the new channels.
Thank you again!!!!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

James Long said:


> Speculation based on the absence of data?
> I prefer speculation based on the presence of data.
> 
> There are those who know more than is seen in public data.
> They are often proven right when the public data is released.


If a satellite moves in the sky but there's no one around to post the TLE on a forum, is it really drifting?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Coca Cola Kid said:


> If a satellite moves in the sky but there's no one around to post the TLE on a forum, is it really drifting?


I don't know--that is so unlikely with so many watchers here.


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't know--that is so unlikely with so many watchers here.


Could we classify that as a, "legal" watch?


----------



## slimoli

Sixto

Few weeks ago there were few HD channels being tested (AMC, IFC) but not in this 1st list released . Are they still there ? I know it's off topic but you are always here. Thanks.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> Sixto
> 
> Few weeks ago there were few HD channels being tested (AMC, IFC) but not in this 1st list released . Are they still there ? I know it's off topic but you are always here. Thanks.


That question belongs here. He's on there a lot too.


----------



## James Long

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't know--that is so unlikely with so many watchers here.


I've caught four TLE changes checking to see if 170 clicked over to 171 for D12 yet. So watching has not been a total waste.

I even saw a satellite begin to drift (confirmed by NORAD ... and they should know). It just wasn't D12.

And when I sleep someone else will be watching. (The TLEs. Watching me sleep is less interesting.)


----------



## slimoli

Coca Cola Kid said:


> That question belongs here. He's on there a lot too.


With so many posts about beer, Star Trek and others it looks like my question at least is closer to the subject on this thread.

Do these posts belong here ? http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2441957#post2441957
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2439068#post2439068


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> With so many posts about beer, Star Trek and others it looks like my question at least is closer to the subject on this thread.
> 
> Does this post belong here ? http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2441957#post2441957


That post was a *joke* in response to someone else's *joke*. We do that between TLE's, it gets pretty boring otherwise. I wasn't attacking you I'm just saying post in the proper place. Or if you want an answer from only Sixto, send him a private message; this is a public board and you're likely to get 10 different non-answers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

slimoli said:


> With so many posts about beer, Star Trek and others it looks like my question at least is closer to the subject on this thread.
> 
> Do these posts belong here ? http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2441957#post2441957
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2439068#post2439068


The way this thread got tanked by all the misguided posts....I'm sure than when we get the TLE that D12 is parked at 103 and operational, we'll still see some naysayers and the like - its what they do.


----------



## slimoli

Coca Cola Kid said:


> . We do that between TLE's, it gets pretty boring otherwise. QUOTE]
> 
> I agree, that's why I thought nobody would mind talking about something related and probably interesting to other people who wants those channels. We don't have other tread for " HD channels in test" and although Sixto posts in other threads , here is where he "lives".


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> I agree, that's why I thought nobody would mind talking about something related and probably interesting to other people who wants those channels. We don't have other tread for " HD channels in test" and although Sixto posts in other threads , here is where he "lives".


Actually there's lots of posts about channels in testing stages in that thread. Read the whole thing. And Sixto doesn't live at this thread, he has tons of them going and they're all dedicated to certain aspects. This one is for D12.


----------



## slimoli

Coca Cola Kid said:


> slimoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you're gonna quote me quote the whole message. I said if you're asking Sixto (and no one else) a question, send him a PM, or you're likely to get responses about Star Trek, beer, and other non-answers
> 
> 
> 
> A PM should be used if the question is about something only interesting to myself. I am sure that's not the case. That's my last post about the issue.
> I guess you deleted your post while I was typing, the quote is from Coca Cola.
Click to expand...


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> A PM should be used if the question is about something only interesting to myself. I am sure that's not the case. That's my last post about the issue.


Yes but you're specifically asking Sixto ONLY, but posting on a public forum, which will get you dozens of different answers, most likely none of which the one you're looking for.


----------



## DJSix

Maybe the TLE will be released on Tuesday, since that's when most new CDs/DVDs are released 

Ryan


----------



## slimoli

Coca Cola Kid said:


> Yes but you're specifically asking Sixto ONLY, but posting on a public forum. Makes no sense to me.


I am asking Sixto because HE posted about the subject . Now, what about a truce ? If the mods have a problem with my original post, let THEM deal with that, not you.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Sixto
> 
> Few weeks ago there were few HD channels being tested (AMC, IFC) but not in this 1st list released . Are they still there ? I know it's off topic but you are always here. Thanks.


Yes, same. From today's data:


Code:


D10 ?? PT 9733 *TEST   1010 UnknownTP=0c engC"R!#[B]IFC HD[/B]tv:2041.ch2
D10 ?? PT 9745 *TEST   1030 UnknownTP=0e 012eng1C"R!#[B]AMC HD[/B]tv:3346.ch

Usually when a channel is in test but not announced, it's either awaiting some event / "live" date, or purely in test until the contract is (ever) finalized.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

slimoli said:


> I am asking Sixto because HE posted about the subject . Now, what about a truce ? If the mods have a problem with my original post, let THEM deal with that, not you.


I was only trying to help you, I never wanted a war so um yes truce.


----------



## wavemaster

I hope it ends up with full capacity.

They went from "capacity for over 200 HD..." to "30 new starting in May...". 

It should have capacity for 80+? 

I bet we find out after all is said and done, it was not all roses. When did we hear about the transponder issues with D10 in relation to its travel timeline?


----------



## Jeremy W

wavemaster said:


> When did we hear about the transponder issues with D10 in relation to its travel timeline?


After it was parked in it's final slot.


----------



## wmb

Jeremy W said:


> After it was parked in it's final slot.


That begs the question of someone with a better memory... did D10 test at a different location before being moved to its final parking spot?


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Sixto said:


> Yes, same. From today's data:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> D10 ?? PT 9733 *TEST   1010 UnknownTP=0c engC"R!#[B]IFC HD[/B]tv:2041.ch2
> D10 ?? PT 9745 *TEST   1030 UnknownTP=0e 012eng1C"R!#[B]AMC HD[/B]tv:3346.ch
> 
> Usually when a channel is in test but not announced, it's either awaiting some event / "live" date, or purely in test until the contract is (ever) finalized.


2 channels that I would like very much to be in HD.


----------



## Sixto

wmb said:


> That begs the question of someone with a better memory... did D10 test at a different location before being moved to its final parking spot?


No. It went right to 103.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> No. It went right to 103.


So, Jeremy's answer is like saying the Grateful Dead are an 80's one hit wonder... technically correct (only Touch of Grey in 1987 was in the Billboard top 40), but it misses the point.

(yeah, I was looking for an opportunity to use that analogy all day!!!).

Anyhow, the testing of D10 at 103, when the problems were discovered, would be the equivalent of what was done to D12 at 76.


----------



## Tom Robertson

wmb said:


> So, Jeremy's answer is like saying the Grateful Dead are an 80's one hit wonder... technically correct (only Touch of Grey in 1987 was in the Billboard top 40), but it misses the point.
> 
> (yeah, I was looking for an opportunity to use that analogy all day!!!).
> 
> Anyhow, the testing of D10 at 103, when the problems were discovered, would be the equivalent of what was done to D12 at 76.


Yes, the problems would have shown up at 76°. Every transponder is fired up, all the reflectors are characterized, etc.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

wmb said:


> Anyhow, the testing of D10 at 103, when the problems were discovered, would be the equivalent of what was done to D12 at 76.


D10 launched 7/7/2007.

Reached 103° early-September 2007.

Press release was 9/14/2007.

D10 went "live" 9/26/2007.

2007 was a high pressure year, not much time to test or tweak anything. D11 and D12 each had ample time for testing/tweaking.


----------



## Jeremy W

wmb said:


> So, Jeremy's answer is like saying the Grateful Dead are an 80's one hit wonder... technically correct (only Touch of Grey in 1987 was in the Billboard top 40), but it misses the point.


Not quite. I simply forgot that it wasn't tested at a separate slot, however I knew that the problems were revealed very near the date when it went live. That was the point I was trying to make, which was correct.


----------



## James Long

Jeremy W said:


> Not quite. I simply forgot that it wasn't tested at a separate slot, however I knew that the problems were revealed very near the date when it went live. That was the point I was trying to make, which was correct.


You can also look at it from a perspective of how quickly after launch the problem was revealed.
Set the timer based on when DirecTV knew until when we knew.

Then look at when DirecTV would have known testing D12. That time has passed.


----------



## Davenlr

Sixto said:


> D10 launched 7/7/2007.
> 
> 2007 was a high pressure year, not much time to test or tweak anything. D11 and D12 each had *amble* time for testing/tweaking.


While I bet you meant Ample, your use of Amble is very appropriate considering the current situation 

Amble:

1. To walk slowly or leisurely; stroll.

Ample:

2. More than enough: ample evidence.
3. Fully sufficient to meet a need or purpose: had ample food for the party.


----------



## carl6

alnielsen said:


> Wasn't there a sat or two sitting at 103 that needed to make way for D12? Have they moved?


Nothing needs to move (other than D12 of course). There are multiple satellites at all of the orbital slots.


----------



## Jeremy W

James Long said:


> You can also look at it from a perspective of how quickly after launch the problem was revealed.


The time from launch to live was much quicker for D10.


----------



## Sixto

Davenlr said:


> While I bet you meant Ample ...


correct. fixed.


----------



## James Long

Jeremy W said:


> The time from launch to live was much quicker for D10.


Yep ... DirecTV has plenty of time to let people know. Which is why if there was something to say it would have been said before now.


----------



## timmmaaayyy2003

I just knew that I would be on a plane on the way out of the country before D12 did anything. 

You're welcome, guys.


----------



## James Long

timmmaaayyy2003 said:


> I just knew that I would be on a plane on the way out of the country before D12 did anything.


As long as your profile is correct and you'll be gone until August we won't wait for you to come back before making the move.


----------



## BigRedFan

James Long said:


> You can also look at it from a perspective of how quickly after launch the problem was revealed.
> Set the timer based on when DirecTV knew until when we knew.
> 
> Then look at when DirecTV would have known testing D12. That time has passed.


Since the DTV Quarterly Conference Call with the stock analysts is this Thursday, May 6 (2PM, ET), perhaps someone on this board can contact one of these analysts to have them ask the DTV reps a question that would go something like this:
"Now that D12 has been tested for several months, can DTV now confirm that all of D12's 16 transponders of national HD bandwidth are 'healthy' and without any issues, so as to be able to deliver and support the 80 additional HD channels it was meant to deliver ? "

DTV's response would tell us whether we should read anything into their changing the DTV marketing language (2 weeks ago) from "capacity for over 200 HD channels" to "160 HD channels", a reduction of more than 40 HD channels or 50% of the promised additional capacity....

Since each transponder is thought to support 5 HD channels, a potential reduction in over 40 HD channels would mean that a minimum of 8 transponders (on D12) are at stake here.... It would be nice (and a relief) to get confirmation that D12 will still take DTV to deliver over 200 HD channels, notwithstanding the recent change in the marketing materials....

And would also eliminate any negative thoughts associated with D12's longer-than-anticipated stay at 76....


----------



## James Long

BigRedFan said:


> DTV's response would tell us whether we should read anything into their changing the DTV marketing language (2 weeks ago) from "capacity for over 200 HD channels" to "160 HD channels", a reduction of more than 40 HD channels or 50% of the promised additional capacity....


The 160 HD channels isn't capacity. DirecTV has not changed their stance (recently) on capacity. It has been 200 HD channels for a while.

Dig back far enough and you'll find a capacity of 160 HD channels claimed ... then claims that D12 will increase capacity by 50%. Then the capacity claim with D12 changed to 200 HD channels. 160+50% <> 200. 130+50%= 205.

Now the claim is that they will offer 160 channels ... not capacity but in your guide and watchable content ... with rollouts starting in May.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some channels sneak on before D12 just to help DirecTV customers "keep the faith" (although that would annoy customers who believed the excuse that waiting for D12 was the reason they were waiting for new HD). This could be done at the cost of HD Cinema channels that are not needed for RSN alternate/part time channels. The borrowing from HD Cinema would be repaid whenever D12 gets into service.

I don't see any signs of problems moving from "capacity" advertising to "channel count" advertising. It fits in with DirecTV's other advertising. "We could put up 200 HD channels" isn't as strong of a message as "we have 160 channels (go ahead, count them)". Although the 160 HD is a future offering at least it is an announced plan.

There is nothing wrong with D12* ... at last word it will be "on service on schedule".

*Unless of course D12 is refusing to fire thrusters to begin the drift ... but that is just wild speculation.


----------



## James Long

BTW: After regularly checking to see if the TLE for D12 has been updated now more than 91 hours past the last Epoch I'm starting to notice that E14 hasn't been updated in 17 hours pat the last Epoch. Time to stop checking. 

Perhaps it is all our fault ... a watched TLE never changes? E14 has changed a few times (to start it's drift to 119) but there are a lot more people watching D12. So perhaps the best advice is to stop looking?


----------



## BigRedFan

James Long said:


> The 160 HD channels isn't capacity. DirecTV has not changed their stance (recently) on capacity. It has been 200 HD channels for a while.
> 
> Dig back far enough and you'll find a capacity of 160 HD channels claimed ... then claims that D12 will increase capacity by 50%. Then the capacity claim with D12 changed to 200 HD channels. 160+50% <> 200. 130+50%= 205.
> 
> Now the claim is that they will offer 160 channels ... not capacity but in your guide and watchable content ... with rollouts starting in May.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see some channels sneak on before D12 just to help DirecTV customers "keep the faith" (although that would annoy customers who believed the excuse that waiting for D12 was the reason they were waiting for new HD). This could be done at the cost of HD Cinema channels that are not needed for RSN alternate/part time channels. The borrowing from HD Cinema would be repaid whenever D12 gets into service.
> 
> I don't see any signs of problems moving from "capacity" advertising to "channel count" advertising. It fits in with DirecTV's other advertising. "We could put up 200 HD channels" isn't as strong of a message as "we have 160 channels (go ahead, count them)". Although the 160 HD is a future offering at least it is an announced plan.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with D12* ... at last word it will be "on service on schedule".
> 
> *Unless of course D12 is refusing to fire thrusters to begin the drift ... but that is just wild speculation.


I just don't understand why, right before D12 becomes operational, the sales materials get changed from 200 HD channels to 160 (a 50% HD reduction)..... I know that 200 referred to capacity but they could still have kept this 200 HD "promise" message and still say "we will have 160 in May"....One message does not preclude the other....

In fact, as much as I've searched around, I can't find now even 1 mention of the 200 HD number they touted very publicly (and loudly) in TV/Radio commercials, newspaper ads, websites, etc. for many months.... If there ever was a time to ramp up this message it would be now when D12 is about to go live and after Dish is making the same (false) claim.....

Either way, I think you will agree that it would be comforting to hear this coming Thursday (during the Conference Call) that D12's 16 national HD transponders have zero issues and will be able to deliver an additional 80 HD channels (as it was designed to do).... And thus, no more fretting (or speculation) over why it's been testing at 76 for so long....


----------



## James Long

BigRedFan said:


> Either way, I think you will agree that it would be comforting to hear this coming Thursday (during the Conference Call) that D12's 16 national HD transponders have zero issues and will be able to deliver an additional 80 HD channels (as it was designed to do).... And thus, no more fretting (or speculation) over why it's been testing at 76 for so long....


I wouldn't expect a number ... just a simple "there are no problems and we expect the satellite to be on service as scheduled". Something that could be read here for the past few months.


----------



## Tom Robertson

BigRedFan said:


> I just don't understand why, right before D12 becomes operational, the sales materials get changed from 200 HD channels to 160 (a 50% HD reduction)..... I know that 200 referred to capacity but they could still have kept this 200 HD "promise" message and still say "we will have 160 in May"....One message does not preclude the other....
> 
> In fact, as much as I've searched around, I can't find now even 1 mention of the 200 HD number they touted very publicly (and loudly) in TV/Radio commercials, newspaper ads, websites, etc. for many months.... If there ever was a time to ramp up this message it would be now when D12 is about to go live and after Dish is making the same (false) claim.....
> 
> Either way, I think you will agree that it would be comforting to hear this coming Thursday (during the Conference Call) that D12's 16 national HD transponders have zero issues and will be able to deliver an additional 80 HD channels (as it was designed to do).... And thus, no more fretting (or speculation) over why it's been testing at 76 for so long....


It's actually quite simple.

When D12 launched DIRECTV didn't know what channels they were going to launch in the first round(s). So they pushed what they could--capacity.

The Dish sued false advertising (in that spate of lawsuits both filed against each other.) So DIRECTV stopped pushing capacity.

Now DIRECTV has real channel lists to promote; not capacity. So they push that. (It's a better marketing story anyway.)

Capacity hasn't changed--it's just not the best sell in marketing stuff.

Only us geeks really ask lots of questions about the tech specs. Marketing isn't about tech specs--it's about channel specs. 

So don't worry about the capacity numbers. They aren't the sell. And they are fine.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DaveC27

James Long said:


> BTW: After regularly checking to see if the TLE for D12 has been updated now more than 91 hours past the last Epoch I'm starting to notice that E14 hasn't been updated in 17 hours pat the last Epoch. Time to stop checking.
> 
> Perhaps it is all our fault ... a watched TLE never changes? E14 has changed a few times (to start it's drift to 119) but there are a lot more people watching D12. So perhaps the best advice is to stop looking?


To borrow from Doctor Who, maybe it can only move when it's not being watched


----------



## gphvid

DaveC27 said:


> To borrow from Doctor Who, maybe it can only move when it's not being watched


Don't blink....or turn off the lights!


----------



## James Long

Sorry folks .. I tried ... I left it alone for a few hours and there is still no new TLE. But there were two more for E14. Go figure!


----------



## reweiss

I guess no one was aware that D12 was armed with a Romulan cloaking device...


----------



## rrrick8

IMHO, we probably need to switch from TLE vigil to watching the signal strength meter on 103(ca).
Probably get first indication there.


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> D10 launched 7/7/2007.
> 
> Reached 103° early-September 2007.
> 
> Press release was 9/14/2007.
> 
> D10 went "live" 9/26/2007.
> 
> 2007 was a high pressure year, not much time to test or tweak anything. D11 and D12 each had ample time for testing/tweaking.


If I remember correctly, I think it was D10 that after it went live there were issues (pixelation & video lock ups) with the video. It went away after some more live tweaking. They may not be rushing this time, to avoid a reoccurance of these issues, after going live.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

rrrick8 said:


> IMHO, we probably need to switch from TLE vigil to watching the signal strength meter on 103(ca).
> Probably get first indication there.


I'm getting all zeros


----------



## jefbal99

rrrick8 said:


> IMHO, we probably need to switch from TLE vigil to watching the signal strength meter on 103(ca).
> Probably get first indication there.


Naw, there will be a TLE and prolly a PR when it gets parked. After that will be a lil config, then signals before launch.

I think we'll see a TLE today or tomorrow to show that its drifting and one or two over the next two weeks until its parked.

Even if the drift started last wednesday, it would be at least May 18th, based on a 20 day drift, before its parked.


----------



## CTJon

TBlazer07 said:


> Remeber Echo 1, the big air filled mylar balloon they literally bounced signals off? That lit up almost every night.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Echo


I remember watching Echo 1 travel across the sky. What a thrill that was.

I know back to topic


----------



## raoul5788

loudo said:


> If I remember correctly, I think it was D10 that after it went live there were issues (pixelation & video lock ups) with the video. It went away after some more live tweaking. They may not be rushing this time, to avoid a reoccurance of these issues, after going live.


D10 was the first use of mpeg4 for Directv. Those initial problems were simply "growing pains". I don't think it will happen again like that.


----------



## James Long

jefbal99 said:


> I think we'll see a TLE today or tomorrow to show that its drifting and one or two over the next two weeks until its parked.


A new TLE showing drift would certainly ease tensions. One not showing drift may cause a riot.

The previous examples are hard to apply to D12 since the satellites were launched to final orbit or pretty close. The five days without a TLE 1.47 degree move started with a TLE that predicted drift. For a 27 degree drift we should see something closer to what is being released for E14 ... several TLEs as the satellite leaves the testing location and drifts toward the new location.



> Even if the drift started last wednesday, it would be at least May 18th, based on a 20 day drift, before its parked.


We know where it was Thu Apr 29 06:05:00 EDT ... and it wasn't drifting.

The only excuse I can see for not having a TLE (other than a stable orbit that is still described by the last TLE - not drifting) is if there is some odd rule where one would not be required. But I don't see how a large drift would be possible without an updates.

My understanding is that TLEs are created from NORAD's tracking ... and I don't see the government ignoring one drifting satellite while reporting others. If TLEs are sourced from the TT&C companies controlling the satellite then they should be reporting changes. And there is no reason why the move would be held as confidential/classified.

I don't believe that anything is wrong with D12 ... but I don't see it as drifting. Certainly not for more than a few hours. I've seen TLEs that are only three or four hours old ... I saw one delayed 10-15 hours after epoch this morning before public release.

A new TLE would certainly help.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually there were MPEG4 locals before DIRECTV10.


----------



## RAD

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually there were MPEG4 locals before DIRECTV10.


IIRC Detroit MI was the first city to get MPEG4 HD LIL via Spaceway 1.


----------



## James Long

raoul5788 said:


> D10 was the first use of mpeg4 for Directv. Those initial problems were simply "growing pains". I don't think it will happen again like that.


That would have been more of an issue of MPEG4 than the satellite. DirecTV has figured out how to do MPEG4 now. There is nothing on D12 that would make MPEG4 act any differently than it does on D10 or D11 (or any other satellite).


----------



## doctor j

RAD said:


> IIRC Detroit MI was the first city to get MPEG4 HD LIL via Spaceway 1.


10/20/2005

see here:
http://members.cox.net/oknewshawk/DTV_HDLIL_DATE.html

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

To be fair, D10 was the first Directv satellite to use Ka B-Band. There was obviously a lot of tweaking of the MPEG4 encoders and stat-muxing systems in those first few weeks after it got on-station.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

But was it on service as planned?  :lol:


----------



## Mark Walters

DIRECTV & HD: Is That All There Is?
By Swanni

Guy has a point -- albeit he is usually very negative about D*'s practices, but his argument is justified. A lot of hearsay going on by everybody.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dall050310.htm


----------



## Stuart Sweet

As usual with Mr. Swann, his initial assertions are accurate but the conclusions he draws from them are far, far, from the truth. I'm sorry I can't be more clear than that... only I wouldn't put too much stock in his "TV Predictions" in this case.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Mark Walters said:


> DIRECTV & HD: Is That All There Is?
> By Swanni
> 
> Guy has a point -- albeit he is usually very negative about D*'s practices, but his argument is justified. A lot of hearsay going on by everybody.
> 
> http://www.tvpredictions.com/dall050310.htm


More Swanni BS.

I never expecting 200 HD channels this year. I expected capacity for 200 channels.

Start the F'n drift already!


----------



## sigma1914

Mark Walters said:


> DIRECTV & HD: Is That All There Is?
> By Swanni
> 
> Guy has a point -- albeit he is usually very negative about D*'s practices, but his argument is justified. A lot of hearsay going on by everybody.
> 
> http://www.tvpredictions.com/dall050310.htm


Quoting Swanni to make a point here = FAIL


----------



## James Long

Piling on Swanni a little more ...
Unsourced comments don't help lend credibility to articles. If "DIRECTV says" he needs to be more accurate as to whom at DirecTV said it. Otherwise he's just proliferating Internet rumors. I'll accept "DIRECTV says" if I know it to be true myself, but in "professional journalism" it is his job to convince me that is true - and that is done through sources, not 'I heard it on the Internet so it must be true' type comments.

Must be another slow news day. Gotta put a column out ...

(I'm still waiting for DirecTV and DISH to merge ... one of his five predictions for 2009. Actually, I don't want them to merge - and I predict that they never will. Neither company is struggling and being #1 and #2 is a good position.)


----------



## RAD

IMHO if DirecTV has capacity for 200 channels I sure wouldn't want them to add a bunch of channels just to reach that 200 number. Since D12 is the last satellite being added for a couple years at least I'd prefer that they keep some space open/available so they would be able to add some new 'must have' channel that might become available during that time frame.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RAD said:


> IMHO if DirecTV has capacity for 200 channels I sure wouldn't want them to add a bunch of channels just to reach that 200 number. Since D12 is the last satellite being added for a couple years at least I'd prefer that they keep some space open/available so they would be able to add some new 'must have' channel that might become available during that time frame.


I suspect you *won't* be sorely disappointed if those are your expectations. It would also be a prudent business plan.


----------



## Hdhead

James Long said:


> A new TLE showing drift would certainly ease tensions. One not showing drift may cause a riot.


:eek2: You said it not us. Get on your riot gear.


----------



## James Long

RAD said:


> Since D12 is the last satellite being added for a couple years at least I'd prefer that they keep some space open/available so they would be able to add some new 'must have' channel that might become available during that time frame.


There are still plenty of anticipated channels that are not in the announced wave. There are 10 regular channels in Platinum or less that have HD versions on DISH plus more that DISH hasn't added yet (or won't add soon) that DirecTV customers have been desiring. (This isn't counting the special HD channels I don't expect DirecTV to carry.) Just adding the "missing" will probably take up half of the "other" space available.

Some wonderful "new" channel that is a "must have"? I'm not sure what that would be. But I wouldn't save a lot of space for these types of channels.


----------



## James Long

Hdhead said:


> :eek2: You said it not us. Get on your riot gear.


Another one was just released for E14 ...


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> A new TLE showing drift would certainly ease tensions. One not showing drift may cause a riot.


Don't get the CLC riled up. They're frothing at the mouth with each passing day of not drifting. :lol:


----------



## Mark Walters

sigma1914 said:


> Quoting Swanni to make a point here = FAIL


I can't believe I'm going to take the time to defend this guy. First of all Sigma on D*.com you will see D* uses a quote from Swanni to make their case comparing HD channels with E*. So your point that this guy has no credibility and equals a FAIL (as you put it), Sorry... D* identifies with this person and uses his quote and website as its first piece of evidence. So obviously the guy has some credibility and knowledge on the subject of HD or D* wouldn't be using it or as James Long put it, that wouldn't be very professionally journalistic of D* without doing some background on what they're quoting.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/competition/dish/hd


----------



## raoul5788

RAD said:


> IIRC Detroit MI was the first city to get MPEG4 HD LIL via Spaceway 1.


That's right, I forgot about the Spaceways! Still, the mpeg4 issues were with D10 and the nationals, yes?


----------



## sigma1914

Mark Walters said:


> I can't believe I'm going to take the time to defend this guy. First of all Sigma on D*.com you will see D* uses a quote from Swanni to make their case comparing HD channels with E*. So your point that this guy has no credibility and equals a FAIL (as you put it), Sorry... D* identifies with this person and uses his quote and website as its first piece of evidence. So obviously the guy has some credibility and knowledge on the subject of HD or D* wouldn't be using it or as James Long put it, that wouldn't be very professionally journalistic of D* without doing some background on what they're quoting.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/competition/dish/hd


Directv fails, too, for acknowledging him. The guy is more anti Directv than some here. 99.9% of dbstalk has better credibility and knowledge on the subject of HD than him. I've seen better article writing in a high school newspaper.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

As the former editor of a high school newspaper, I'll take that as a mild compliment.


----------



## sigma1914

Stuart Sweet said:


> As the former editor of a high school newspaper, I'll take that as a mild compliment.


Mr. Sweet, your work with others in First Looks speaks for itself.


----------



## James Long

Mark Walters said:


> Sorry... D* identifies with this person and uses his quote and website as its first piece of evidence. So obviously the guy has some credibility and knowledge on the subject of HD or D* wouldn't be using it or as James Long put it, that wouldn't be very professionally journalistic of D* without doing some background on what they're quoting.


Don't use my words to support Swanni ... that would be a poor effort on your part.

READ what I said about Swanni's mention of "DIRECTV says". It was unsourced. Where did DirecTV say what Swanni said DirecTV said? And how does a properly sourced quote on DirecTV's website confirm that "DIRECTV says" anything in Swanni's article?

Also note that DirecTV is a satellite service provider, not a person passing themselves off as a professional journalist online. There are different standards. He said something bad about the competition and DirecTV took advantage. Perhaps DISH should link this Swanni story on their homepage (as they did the SkyReport channel count story last week). It wouldn't mean that DISH agreed with every Skyreport story or every Swanni story. Only that the one particular article met their immediate need.

It's PR.


----------



## wmb

The Economist has a special report about television entitled "Changing the Channel".

http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15980859
Here is a snippet...

In 1992 Bruce Springsteen, a rocker from New Jersey, released a song called "57 Channels (and Nothin' On)". There are now hundreds of channels. A quick channel-surf through a basic cable-TV package in America turns up a weighty history of the civil war, a South Korean melodrama, a college basketball game, a Hispanic talent show, a congressional hearing, a zombie film, European football, an evangelical sermon and a documentary about a "half-ton teen". Many more options are available on demand with a few clicks of the remote control. The offerings are decidedly mixed, but there is always something on.

"There are not many genres that are not addressed any more," says Philippe Dauman, CEO of Viacom, a media conglomerate. "We try to think of new ones all the time." And where America has led, others have followed, often much more quickly. Until the early 1990s India had two state-run television channels, Doordarshan 1 and Doordarshan 2, which were best known for their amateurish dramatisations of Hindu epics. It now has more than 600. In Britain the proportion of homes that receive multi-channel television has risen from 31% to 89% in the past ten years.


----------



## GoPokes43

wmb said:


> The Economist has a special report about television entitled "Changing the Channel".
> 
> http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displayStory.cfm?story_id=15980859
> ... *In Britain the proportion of homes that receive multi-channel television has risen from 31% to 89% in the past ten years.*


Really? In the year 2000, 69% of those in Britain only had one channel?


----------



## joed32

Mark Walters said:


> I can't believe I'm going to take the time to defend this guy. First of all Sigma on D*.com you will see D* uses a quote from Swanni to make their case comparing HD channels with E*. So your point that this guy has no credibility and equals a FAIL (as you put it), Sorry... D* identifies with this person and uses his quote and website as its first piece of evidence. So obviously the guy has some credibility and knowledge on the subject of HD or D* wouldn't be using it or as James Long put it, that wouldn't be very professionally journalistic of D* without doing some background on what they're quoting.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/competition/dish/hd


They know he's a phony but everyone uses his blogs to bash Directv so the one time he attacks Dish Network they use it in their favor. He gets most of his insider info from this forum and others like it across the internet.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

GoPokes43 said:


> Really? In the year 2000, 69% of those in Britain only had one channel?


I presume they are using the term multichannel to mean cable/satellite/fiber. That is the industry term for that... in other words more than OTA.


----------



## Skyboss

BigRedFan said:


> I just don't understand why, right before D12 becomes operational, the sales materials get changed from 200 HD channels to 160 (a 50% HD reduction)..... I know that 200 referred to capacity but they could still have kept this 200 HD "promise" message and still say "we will have 160 in May"....One message does not preclude the other....


Read it again. D12 provides them with capacity for up to 200. They will soon have 160 channels. :nono2:

Its not that complicated.:ramblinon

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018

*AND I QUOTE FOR YOU!*

_These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160._

The release says nothing about capacity. Got it?


----------



## iceturkee

swanni must not be reading this website as frequently as he use to. for if he had, he surely would have seen satracer's post that the 30 channels starting to lite up this month is not the end of the national hd rollout.


----------



## Skyboss

raoul5788 said:


> D10 was the first use of mpeg4 for Directv.


Uh. Spaceway buddy.


----------



## freerein100

Directv is still using the 200 channel capacity ads in newspapers, I received a flyer in yesterdays paper


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Some of those ads are older contracts that haven't changed, and some are from dealers (although you wouldn't know it without looking at the fine print.)


----------



## sigma1914

James Long said:


> Don't use my words to support Swanni ... that would be a poor effort on your part.
> 
> READ what I said about Swanni's mention of "DIRECTV says". It was unsourced. Where did DirecTV say what Swanni said DirecTV said? And how does a properly sourced quote on DirecTV's website confirm that "DIRECTV says" anything in Swanni's article?
> 
> Also note that DirecTV is a satellite service provider, not a person passing themselves off as a professional journalist online. There are different standards. He said something bad about the competition and DirecTV took advantage. Perhaps DISH should link this Swanni story on their homepage (as they did the SkyReport channel count story last week). It wouldn't mean that DISH agreed with every Skyreport story or every Swanni story. Only that the one particular article met their immediate need.
> 
> It's PR.


Swanni's source is the CSR who fielded his call. :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Skyboss said:


> Read it again. D12 provides them with capacity for up to 200. They will soon have 160 channels. :nono2:
> 
> Its not that complicated.:ramblinon
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6770018
> 
> *AND I QUOTE FOR YOU!*
> 
> _These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160._
> 
> The release says nothing about capacity. Got it?


You probably could have said that a little nicer. 

Although, it only says capacity of 200 if the grey fine print at the end of the page so it's perfectly reasonable how someone might have missed that...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Skyboss

MicroBeta said:


> You probably could have said that a little nicer.
> 
> Although, it only says capacity of 200 if the grey fine print at the end of the page so it's perfectly reasonable how someone might have missed that...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


There is a reading and comprehension problem in America. One can only hope an occasional shout will get through.


----------



## raoul5788

Skyboss said:


> Uh. Spaceway buddy.


Buddy? Just a bit condescending, eh? Look a few posts above this one and you will see where I acknowledged my mistake. Okay, pal?


----------



## Skyboss

raoul5788 said:


> Buddy? Just a bit condescending, eh? Look a few posts above this one and you will see where I acknowledged my mistake. Okay, pal?


Just buddy. If I wanted to be condescending I'd have used another term.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Please take personal discussions to private messaging, ok?


----------



## curt8403

Stuart Sweet said:


> Please take personal discussions to private messaging, ok?


 +500


----------



## oldfantom

Skyboss said:


> There is a reading and comprehension problem in America. One can only hope an occasional shout will get through.


Micro's point was that the press release says both, 160 channels and 200 capacity. There is the text you are reading in the main part that says 160 channels. But the about DirecTv portions says capacity. Every press release I have ever read has both parts. The body and the about.


----------



## Sixto

All indications are that D12 has the exact national capacity that they expected.

Just taking some time ...


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Why don't we all just get some Long John Silvers and talk about this in an amicable manner?


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> All indications are that D12 has the exact national capacity that they expected.
> 
> Just taking some time ...


Latest public information to SEC on 4/16 was "..when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel
markets to 157-covering over 95% of television homes.." Nothing has changed.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

i think i may be a little sad when the next TLE is halfway to 103 since ive been eagerly awaiting the start of the drift and if its half way there its like missing the puch line of a joke or the climax of a movie... So needless to say im torn on the matter cause i want it to have started because im impatient, but still want to see it start. oh well you cant have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## Skyboss

SPACEMAKER said:


> Why don't we all just get some Long John Silvers and talk about this in an amicable manner?


It's noon somewhere....


----------



## Skyboss

oldfantom said:


> Micro's point was that the press release says both, 160 channels and 200 capacity. There is the text you are reading in the main part that says 160 channels. But the about DirecTv portions says capacity. Every press release I have ever read has both parts. The body and the about.


:nono2:

Did you even read my post?


----------



## Laker44

Swanni can't even read a press release correctly


> Swanni-And finally, in the press release announcing the addition of the 30 HD channels, DIRECTV does not say more channels will be added after that. That's a telling omission.


From DirecTV's press release-EL SEGUNDO, Calif., April 20, 2010- DIRECTV, the world's most popular video service, continues to deliver more full time HD channels than any other television provider in the nation with the *addition of over *30 new HD channels. These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160.

It clearly says in the press release that there will be more then 30 channels.


----------



## Skyboss

Laker44 said:


> Swanni can't even read a press release correctly
> 
> From DirecTV's press release-EL SEGUNDO, Calif., April 20, 2010- DIRECTV, the world's most popular video service, continues to deliver more full time HD channels than any other television provider in the nation with the *addition of over *30 new HD channels. These new channels will begin rolling out in May and will continue in the following few months bringing DIRECTV's total HD channel lineup to more than 160.


Like I said.



Skyboss said:


> There is a reading and comprehension problem in America.


Runs rampant these days.


----------



## Alan Gordon

RAD said:


> IMHO if DirecTV has capacity for 200 channels I sure wouldn't want them to add a bunch of channels just to reach that 200 number. Since D12 is the last satellite being added for a couple years at least I'd prefer that they keep some space open/available so they would be able to add some new 'must have' channel that might become available during that time frame.





James Long said:


> There are still plenty of anticipated channels that are not in the announced wave. There are 10 regular channels in Platinum or less that have HD versions on DISH plus more that DISH hasn't added yet (or won't add soon) that DirecTV customers have been desiring. (This isn't counting the special HD channels I don't expect DirecTV to carry.) Just adding the "missing" will probably take up half of the "other" space available.
> 
> Some wonderful "new" channel that is a "must have"? I'm not sure what that would be. But I wouldn't save a lot of space for these types of channels.


I'm going to agree with James.

I would save some, and depending on what DirecTV adds this Summer (beyond what we already know), that number may grow or shrink, but I wouldn't save a lot.

Aside from the additional Encore channels coming later this year, I don't expect a lot of additional HD channels coming to market, so DirecTV would be wise to offer as many of the currently available channels as possible.

~Alan


----------



## Dradran

Since E14 has received several TLE's today and D12 has received none, does that mean they lost contact with D12 and don't know its position? There must be something wrong with D12 since E14 launched in late March and is already drifting to its operational orbit. D12 was launched late last year and is still sitting at 76.


----------



## syphix

Wasn't there some "silence" when D10/D11 started moving? I seem to remember a "blackout" time, and then suddenly it was almost at the parking location. Am I remembering incorrectly?...it's entirely possible...


----------



## Mark Walters

James Long said:


> Don't use my words to support Swanni ... that would be a poor effort on your part.
> 
> READ what I said about Swanni's mention of "DIRECTV says". It was unsourced. Where did DirecTV say what Swanni said DirecTV said? And how does a properly sourced quote on DirecTV's website confirm that "DIRECTV says" anything in Swanni's article?
> 
> Also note that DirecTV is a satellite service provider, not a person passing themselves off as a professional journalist online. There are different standards. He said something bad about the competition and DirecTV took advantage. Perhaps DISH should link this Swanni story on their homepage (as they did the SkyReport channel count story last week). It wouldn't mean that DISH agreed with every Skyreport story or every Swanni story. Only that the one particular article met their immediate need.
> 
> It's PR.


James Long, I didn't use your words. I made a point about the idea of "professional journalism." Where did I use your words? In fact I changed the form and usage of professional journalism if we want to be accurate. Bottom line - I'm not supporting anybody. I made the point how it's ridiculous to denigrate a person who is being sourced on D*.com for the purposes of this overall discussion of new HD.

By the way I read what you wrote and I have to ask, what are you talking about? Did you read what Swanni wrote?
Let us take a look -- I'll break it down.

1st graph - 200 capacity early D* claims
2nd graph - total D* HD channels currently
3rd graph - expectation most D* subs have
4th graph - addition of 30 HD's over next few months
5th graph - will bring total to 160 HD minus - PPV HD

So far everything here is clear, concrete and accurate. No need for a source for anyone that has been following. Although D* has all these things on its site currently or at a time previously. Graph 3 is a customer expectation. You know when the first commercials about 200 HD came out --that sneaky fine print stated capacity. Well as we know, most people don't or can't read the fine print. After people like Swanni called D* out on that we started hearing and seeing 200 HD capacity commercials. Man, what a horrible person for being one of the ones that pressured D* to accurately portray the truth to its subscribers.

6&7 graphs - 3D and more PPV will take up additional space - right, this has been said all along, let's keep going...
8th graph - reiterating graph 4 - new 30 HD will take time (months)
9th graph - nothing besides 30 HD have been announced
10th graph - honest line to consumers who might be expecting 200 HD's by end of year to not hold breath. This graph is for subscribers that aren't experts and didn't see the fine print. They don't keep daily tabs and know all the different advertisements that D* puts out. These are the majority and average customers that already have service or might sign up to D* and see 200 HD all over the website. And most importantly this graph is a pellucid way of writing. It circumvents the misleading viral marketing that has been dispersed.

OK WHAT IN HERE IS THE PROBLEM? I think you have a problem with this Swanni. That's fine, but nothing in this article is a stretch.

Hell I bet we have tons of people, like me, who doubt we will have new HD in May. I'll be the first to admit it if I'm wrong but I don't find it very coincidental that D* released the 30 HD press release hours after E* launched more HD channels. I think we can be pretty certain that came out because E* launched more HD channels. I've seen D* press releases before and they aren't gospel. How about the HBO HD PR from 2007?

People are still nervous on this very thread about when D12 will drift and launch. Could a press release from D* sometimes be as valuable as the imaginary money our Fed govt prints? Not saying that -- just asking..

By the way - Swanni is an expert (according to D*). I'm not his public defender. But let us call a spade a spade. Go to D* .com and he is called an (EXPERT). "Read the experts...." it says.

This article clearly shows Swanni is looking out for the consumer.. In other words RESULTS over flashy WORDS. Is that too much to ask because it sure as hell receives a lot of negative attention around here?

And as far as D* quoting him on their website. It is in D*'s best interest to quote someone that is credible, accurate, fair, and that will promote their service positively not negatively. And yes other things said by someone you quote can hurt you and your business model. You say they found one article to fit their need? Would you quote someone for your business that bashes you on a consistent basis but maybe said one good thing? Couldn't that ultimately hurt you and your business in the digital age?

When a terrorist organization supports a particular president for office- you think the campaign website is gonna start boasting about this? Well the terrorist is anti everything but he supports my presidency.. perhaps I should use this... huh? No because the opposite party (or competition) will use this against you..

Is D* really that starved to find people to bash E* to prove who has a bigger sack (I mean number)? So did they use a Swanni quote out of desperation because the options were limited? Come one now -- not adding up here.

PR -- smear r --You asked me the question, "And how does a properly sourced quote on DirecTV's website confirm that "DIRECTV says" anything in Swanni's article?"

The answer to this is lucid IMO: It's not that D* says anything in the article but the representation of it being on D*.com and being linked for millions to see. People associate the two together -- you know cross marketing. In other words it's a full endorsement; that is how people look at it. This will likely have a very negative effect when D* users find mostly negative pages and items on Swanni's site. A news site to link to is one thing but a constant 24/7 blog of negative D* stories is bizarre to quote and link. As a scholar and employee in this field I would have that quote and site pulled immediately.

When D* puts your name and your website up on its mainframe...YES that means the majority of its users attribute that to a linked association.

Why would you use a person or site that is constantly negative about you and your company as your reference?
Grab me any stakeholder because they would tell you the same thing. Just my thoughts.. not taking sides. Happy Monday!


----------



## JLucPicard

Can we end the discussion of Swanni, please? This thread is for discussion of D12, and even given the natural drift, I think I'm not alone in not giving one rodent's behind what Swanni thinks or writes, nor do I want to see this thread continue to be a discussion about him (starting after I hit "Post Quick Reply" ). You can always take that fight to PM.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm asking everyone to take a mental 5-minute time out. If you want to discuss something with someone in particular, send him a private message. Let's come back at 3PM Eastern time with a fresh perspective and a polite respect for the opinions of others. 

I'm going to leave this thread open but I will delete any posts between now and 3pm except those from my fellow moderators or my friend Sixto. 

Thanks.


----------



## wmb

Now for something completely different...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20100503/sc_space/outofcontrolsatellitethreatensothernearbyspacecraft


----------



## brett_the_bomb

sorry stuart, your post wasnt there when i posted. but i also wasnt part of that discussion so i think im safe. right?


----------



## jilardi2

Dradran said:


> Since E14 has received several TLE's today and D12 has received none, does that mean they lost contact with D12 and don't know its position? There must be something wrong with D12 since E14 launched in late March and is already drifting to its operational orbit. D12 was launched late last year and is still sitting at 76.


D12 went out for a beer at noon i think, or something like that is what i gathered from this page so far

oh yeah and maybe some fish also, must be a british sat.

and a quick question, does my ass look fat in these pants? be honest


----------



## Mark Walters

Yes mark - Enough of the Swanni PLEASE!:uglyhamme:uglyhamme Let's get back to D12 immediately please...thank you


----------



## curt8403

Mark Walters said:


> Yes mark - Enough of the Swanni PLEASE!:uglyhamme:uglyhamme Let's get back to D12 immediately please...thank you


yes, yes. please :backtotop


----------



## Dradran

jilardi2 said:


> and a quick question, does my ass look fat in these pants? be honest


No your pants do not make your ass look fat, your ass makes your ass look fat.


----------



## Mark Walters

curt8403 said:


> yes, yes. please :backtotop


You got it...I'm bringing it back...so um where we at here...we still waiting on a drift that we've been waiting for for about 86,400 minutes now? And what's the latest news?


----------



## dpeters11

Dradran said:


> Since E14 has received several TLE's today and D12 has received none, does that mean they lost contact with D12 and don't know its position? There must be something wrong with D12 since E14 launched in late March and is already drifting to its operational orbit. D12 was launched late last year and is still sitting at 76.


No, there can't be anything majorly wrong with D12. No SEC filings have been published, which would be required if a major issue was found. They started announcing new HD channels. As has been mentioned before, E14 is going faster because they seem to have decided to use more fuel in putting it in position, DirecTV decided to have more lifespan. Plus DirecTV likely wanted to test more anyway because of the BSS payload.


----------



## Dradran

It is a legitimate question or concern. I am really just wondering why it only took E* a little over a month to start drifting and D* is running up on 5 months. Seems odd to me.

BTW, I am a D* subscriber.


----------



## Dradran

dpeters11 said:


> No, there can't be anything majorly wrong with D12. No SEC filings have been published, which would be required if a major issue was found. They started announcing new HD channels. As has been mentioned before, E14 is going faster because they seem to have decided to use more fuel in putting it in position, DirecTV decided to have more lifespan. Plus DirecTV likely wanted to test more anyway because of the BSS payload.


This was all I was looking for, a straight answer not comments about my post number. Thank you.


----------



## katzeye

syphix said:


> Wasn't there some "silence" when D10/D11 started moving? I seem to remember a "blackout" time, and then suddenly it was almost at the parking location. Am I remembering incorrectly?...it's entirely possible...


Yep, That's what happened.


----------



## Skyboss

Dradran said:


> It is a legitimate question or concern. I am really just wondering why it only took E* a little over a month to start drifting and D* is running up on 5 months.


Because E* is in a hurry to save subs from jumping ship.


----------



## TBlazer07

brett_the_bomb said:


> i think i may be a little sad when the next TLE is halfway to 103 since ive been eagerly awaiting the start of the drift and if its half way there its like missing the puch line of a joke or the climax of a movie... So needless to say im torn on the matter cause i want it to have started because im impatient, but still want to see it start. oh well you cant have your cake and eat it too.


You actually CAN have your cake and eat it too, but you CAN'T eat your cake and have it too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dradran said:


> It is a legitimate question or concern. I am really just wondering why it only took E* a little over a month to start drifting and D* is running up on 5 months. Seems odd to me.
> 
> BTW, I am a D* subscriber.


A couple reasons: DIRECTV is very patiently using D12's fuel to maximize the lifespan of D12.

D12 has a new set of transponders in a new frequency range. These are the first transponders that are expected to bring programming to the home, so DIRECTV needs to carefully measure how the frequencies actually work, how much power is necessary to receive clear signals at the home, and how much interference they create with other frequencies already in use. There is a lot of experimentation going on for this new frequency band, BSS.

Very likely DIRECTV will share a lot of information to the FCC and other agencies about the characteristics of the new band. It's one thing to do all the number crunching on paper and quite another to actually test it with live gear. (Hopefully the numbers hold up fairly well...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Hdhead

I have given up watching for a new TLE, instead I am now watching 103(ca) for an indication of life.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hdhead said:


> I have given up watching for a new TLE, instead I am now watching 103(ca) for an indication of life.


I check it daily too.


----------



## P Smith

dpeters11 said:


> .... As has been mentioned before, E14 is going faster because they seem to have decided to use more fuel in putting it in position, DirecTV decided to have more lifespan. ...


Urban legend and no one who came/repeat with the WAG have any proof. :nono:


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Urban legend and no one who came/repeat with the WAG have any proof. :nono:


Neither do you have any "proof" the other way.


----------



## dcowboy7

TBlazer07 said:


> You actually CAN have your cake and eat it too, but you CAN'T eat your cake and have it too.


What if i go back for 2nds, 3rds.... ?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I’m far from a rocket guru. How does waiting save propellant? If we drift now or drift in 3 weeks, doesn’t that consume that same amount of propellant?


----------



## bobnielsen

Hutchinshouse said:


> I'm far from a rocket guru. How does waiting save propellant? If we drift now or drift in 3 weeks, doesn't that consume that same amount of propellant?


The rate of drift depends on how much the orbit changes (how high it goes above geosynchronous altitude). The higher it goes, the more fuel it takes to get to that point (and back to geosynchronous at the end of the move).


----------



## GoPokes43

Tom Robertson said:


> A couple reasons: DIRECTV is very patiently using D12's fuel to maximize the lifespan of D12.
> 
> D12 has a new set of transponders in a new frequency range. These are the first transponders that are expected to bring programming to the home, so DIRECTV needs to carefully measure how the frequencies actually work, how much power is necessary to receive clear signals at the home, and how much interference they create with other frequencies already in use. There is a lot of experimentation going on for this new frequency band, BSS.
> 
> Very likely DIRECTV will share a lot of information to the FCC and other agencies about the characteristics of the new band. It's one thing to do all the number crunching on paper and quite another to actually test it with live gear. (Hopefully the numbers hold up fairly well...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The fuel conservation thing may relate to how fast it moves once the drift starts, but the poster's question seems to only relate to why the lengthy time before the drift begins.

Other than testing as you describe, there could be a couple of other reasons, such as Boeing having other priorities, earth based issues with the equipment for receiving BSS or simply some operational issues with the satellite caused by the launch process or otherwise.

I wouldn't think there would be too much along the lines of being surprised or missunderstanding how the new frequencies work, even in relation to existing frequencies. This is not the testing of a new theory. For one, testing of equipment would have occured on the ground well before deploying it on a satellite. Additionally, BSS was tested with D11 for up to 120 days in 2008 (and perhaps later as well).


----------



## Dradran

So basically D12 had to test newer technologies, whereas E14 was the same technology they had on previous birds. That makes sense to me to account for the difference.


----------



## ivoaraujo

I don't know too much about the way satellites operate and drift, but I read this article on fox news and the question I have is can this particular satellite cause any problems with D12 drift. Sorry, if this is a stupid question, but I thought I would ask anyway.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/03/intense-solar-storm-spins-satellite-control/?test=latestnews


----------



## LameLefty

Dradran said:


> So basically D12 had to test newer technologies, whereas E14 was the same technology they had on previous birds. That makes sense to me to account for the difference.


In addition, E14 was marginally heavier but according to FCC filings, it appears that the difference (and then some) was mostly fuel. Directv 12/RB-2A appears to have a larger payload mass fraction. And so far as I know, E14 isn't using the more efficient XIPS system for propulsion, but a much less efficient bi-propellant or monoprop with a catalyst.

But of course, the numbers in the paperwork are just estimates.


----------



## Beerstalker

As far as I understand the article it should not effect D12 at all as it is going to move from 133 west to 105 west. So it will arrive in the libration point 1t 105 and stay there, never reaching 103.

It may interfere with the sats at 119 and 110 though as it passes by?

I'm sure LameLefty might be able to answer it better than me though.

Edited to change 115 to 105 and add the 110 to sats that may experience interference.


----------



## LameLefty

Beerstalker said:


> As far as I understand the article it should not effect D12 at all as it is going to move from 133 west to 115 west. So it will arrive in the liberation point 1t 115 and stay there, never reaching 103.
> 
> It may interfere with the sat at 119 though as it passes by?
> 
> I'm sure LameLefty might be able to answer it better than me though.


That 105º libration point is a bit of a concern, that's for sure. The big question is whether the vehicle will overshoot that spot before oscillating back towards it, or whether it won't. I personally wouldn't venture a guess.

Libration points are very odd beasts - they're spots where the gravity of two or more large masses tend to create "bubbles" of space where the attraction between them all is more or less stable. For instance, the Earth-Moon-Sun system has 5 L-points, L-1 through L-5, though only two of them (if I remember correctly) are stable enough that a spacecraft could "park" there with minimal fuel usage indefinitely.


----------



## curt8403

ivoaraujo said:


> I don't know too much about the way satellites operate and drift, but I read this article on fox news and the question I have is can this particular satellite cause any problems with D12 drift. Sorry, if this is a stupid question, but I thought I would ask anyway.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010...torm-spins-satellite-control/?test=latestnews


that satellite should not bother D12, but Solar Storms might. !Devil_lol


----------



## davring

curt8403 said:


> that satellite should not bother D12, but Solar Storms might. !Devil_lol


...or an out of control Prius


----------



## Beerstalker

LameLefty said:


> That 105º libration point is a bit of a concern, that's for sure. The big question is whether the vehicle will overshoot that spot before oscillating back towards it, or whether it won't. I personally wouldn't venture a guess.
> 
> Libration points are very odd beasts - they're spots where the gravity of two or more large masses tend to create "bubbles" of space where the attraction between them all is more or less stable. For instance, the Earth-Moon-Sun system has 5 L-points, L-1 through L-5, though only two of them (if I remember correctly) are stable enough that a spacecraft could "park" there with minimal fuel usage indefinitely.


Oops, it was 105 not 115 as I originally posted.

Yeah I could definitely see where it may actually go past 105 to 103 before it moves back toward 105. It sounds like it is drifting pretty slow though so hopefully that doesn't happen (looks like they're estimating about 49 days to move from 133 to 131). I would think 119 and 110 could see issues though as it passes by.


----------



## stephenC

LameLefty said:


> That 105º libration point is a bit of a concern, that's for sure. The big question is whether the vehicle will overshoot that spot before oscillating back towards it, or whether it won't. I personally wouldn't venture a guess.
> 
> Libration points are very odd beasts - they're spots where the gravity of two or more large masses tend to create "bubbles" of space where the attraction between them all is more or less stable. For instance, the Earth-Moon-Sun system has 5 L-points, L-1 through L-5, though only two of them (if I remember correctly) are stable enough that a spacecraft could "park" there with minimal fuel usage indefinitely.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point


----------



## Skyboss

Beerstalker said:


> Oops, it was 105 not 115 as I originally posted.
> 
> Yeah I could definitely see where it may actually go past 105 to 103 before it moves back toward 105. It sounds like it is drifting pretty slow though so hopefully that doesn't happen (looks like they're estimating about 49 days to move from 133 to 131). I would think 119 and 110 could see issues though as it passes by.


Interesting... This is taking place today. Basically, they are bombarding Galaxy 15 in a last distch effort to shut it down.

_On May 3, Intelsat will play what as of April 30 appeared to be its last card by blasting Galaxy 15 with a more powerful signal intended not to salvage the satellite, but to force it into a complete shutdown. That attempt will last about 30 minutes. It will not be repeated, both because a second attempt is viewed as unnecessary - the treatment works or it does not - and because sending out powerful radio frequency signals carries the risk of interfering with other satellites in the area.

Even if the May 3 action succeeds, Galaxy 15 will remain a problem as it continues to wander the geostationary arc. But it is a problem that satellite operators know how to deal with. Industry experts say there are several dozen spacecraft, sometimes called "zombiesats," that for various reasons were not removed from the geostationary highway before failing completely.

Depending on their position at the time of failure, these satellites tend to migrate toward one of two libration points, at 105 degrees west and 75 degrees east. Figures compiled by XL Insurance of New York, an underwriter of space risks, say that more than 160 satellites are gathered at these two points, which Bednarek described as the orbital equivalent of valleys._

http://www.spacenews.com/satellite_telecom/100430-galaxy15-still-adrift-poses-threat.html


----------



## James Long

Beerstalker said:


> As far as I understand the article it should not effect D12 at all as it is going to move from 133 west to 105 west.


It isn't stopping E14 from drifting from 138 to 119 ... 
With the current TLEs E14 will pass Galaxy 15th in about three days (at different altitudes).


----------



## tuckerdog

While I am confident that D12 will soon begin its drift, hopefully reflected in the next TLE, I do question one of the possible reasons for the delay often quoted in this thread.

Posters have frequently quoted the need for extensive testing of the new BSS technology as a possible cause. However in my reading of post # 1, kindly presented by Sixto, BSS testing is described as "RB-2A testing began on 2/13/ 2010 and is complete".

Reading the FCC grants for extensions of IOT the footnotes refer back to the initial grant for Ku-band testing which was approved on 2/13/2010 and was entirely separate from BSS testing.

There has been no extension for the BSS portion that I can see


----------



## jerrylove56

You would think that after the news of this out-of-control sat and news of major solar flares in April (www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36919374/ns/technology_and_science-space/) that D** has been very cautious on how fast they were going to move D12.


----------



## Sixto

tuckerdog said:


> While I am confident that D12 will soon begin its drift, hopefully reflected in the next TLE, I do question one of the possible reasons for the delay often quoted in this thread.
> 
> Posters have frequently quoted the need for extensive testing of the new BSS technology as a possible cause. However in my reading of post # 1, kindly presented by Sixto, BSS testing is described as "RB-2A testing began on 2/13/ 2010 and is complete".
> 
> Reading the FCC grants for extensions of IOT the footnotes refer back to the initial grant for Ku-band testing which was approved on 2/13/2010 and was entirely separate from BSS testing.
> 
> There has been no extension for the BSS portion that I can see


Correct. BSS Testing was completed in March.

The extensions have been for the Ka payload.


----------



## Impala1ss

Why doesn't D* SIMPLY tell us what is happening instead of all the rampant speculation? Why doesn't D* SIMPLY communicate with its subscribers? Now, the answers to these questions would eliminate about 95% of the D* threads.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Impala1ss said:


> Why doesn't D* SIMPLY tell us what is happening instead of all the rampant speculation? Why doesn't D* SIMPLY communicate with its subscribers?


It did communicate with us when it said they're adding 30 new HD channels in May.


----------



## T-Hefner

Coca Cola Kid said:


> It did communicate with us when it said they're adding 30 new HD channels in May.


Yea, but ya wonder if Dish Network never made the "200 HD Claim" if DTV would have said anything about the new 30 HD chans....

Hopefully something happens soon, cus if D12 is gonna lite up in May its gonna go down to the last few days at this rate...

-Tim


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

T-Hefner said:


> Yea, but ya wonder if Dish Network never made the "200 HD Claim" if DTV would have said anything about the new 30 HD chans....
> 
> Hopefully something happens soon, cus if D12 is gonna lite up in May its gonna go down to the last few days at this rate...
> 
> -Tim


could be 3rd week of month IF its already drifting, which it may be, we don't know at this point.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Impala1ss said:


> Why doesn't D* SIMPLY tell us what is happening instead of all the rampant speculation? Why doesn't D* SIMPLY communicate with its subscribers? Now, the answers to these questions would eliminate about 95% of the D* threads.


Why would they? Outside of a couple of forums like this one, nobody cares or even knows about D12.

Besides, companies usually only put out info when the absolutely have to. 

Mike


----------



## RAD

From the www.twitter.com.thedtv account:

_"@Weddy1 as long as you have HD access and a compatible television, you should receive our HD programming when available in June 
30 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to Weddy1"_

But then again, from the www.twitter.com/directv account:

_"@PrompterBob We recently announced 30 new HD channels that will begin rolling out later this month. See http://directv.com/hdchannels 
about 2 hours ago via Assistly in reply to PrompterBob"_


----------



## GoPokes43

RAD said:


> From the www.twitter.com.thedtv account:
> 
> _"@Weddy1 as long as you have HD access and a compatible television, you should receive our HD programming when available in June
> 30 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to Weddy1"_
> 
> But then again, from the www.twitter.com/directv account:
> 
> _"@PrompterBob We recently announced 30 new HD channels that will begin rolling out later this month. See http://directv.com/hdchannels
> about 2 hours ago via Assistly in reply to PrompterBob"_


weddy1's question was asking about 3D, not HD


----------



## spear61

Dradran said:


> It is a legitimate question or concern. I am really just wondering why it only took E* a little over a month to start drifting and D* is running up on 5 months. Seems odd to me.
> 
> BTW, I am a D* subscriber.


You will never find out. Each one of the providers have different business reasons for the amount of info they disclose. Echostar is the gold standard for those seeking info and routinely provides detailed information on failures and the status of their satellites. Directv is fairly secretive. Intelsat blows them all away with their standard request that the FCC release no information regarding Intelsat satellite problems for 20 years which is 5 years after the end of the satellite life (amazing but true).


----------



## Sixto

Today's (5/3/2010) SEC Filing:"We also believe we currently have one of the most extensive national HD channel offerings as well as the largest lineup of 1080p movies in the MVPD industry. Additionally, when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of television homes. Subscribers receiving local HD channels will generally only receive the channels broadcast in their home market. Additionally, in 2010 we plan on being one of the first MVPD providers to offer dedicated 3D programming by introducing three 3D channels to our HD customers who have purchased 3D television sets."

http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-4641​


----------



## dreadlk

The reason is simple, it limits the amount of embarrassment if something should go wrong. 
If they made a whole bunch of hoopla and then the Satellite failed for whatever reason, the the story would be big news and Directv's stock would plummet. If they keep it low key and something happens it will be a much smaller story on the news, and have a lot less impact on the current and potential customers and on the stock prices.



Impala1ss said:


> Why doesn't D* SIMPLY tell us what is happening instead of all the rampant speculation? Why doesn't D* SIMPLY communicate with its subscribers? Now, the answers to these questions would eliminate about 95% of the D* threads.


----------



## jacmyoung

The rabbit and the turtle are racing, the rabbit is fast, after a while the turtle cannot be seen anywhere, there is just no sign of the turtle period.

So now the rabbit is slowing down, ready to take a nap. We'll see how the story goes tomorrow


----------



## cforrest

Sixto said:


> Today's (5/3/2010) SEC Filing:"We also believe we currently have one of the most extensive national HD channel offerings as well as the largest lineup of 1080p movies in the MVPD industry. Additionally, when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of television homes. Subscribers receiving local HD channels will generally only receive the channels broadcast in their home market. Additionally, in 2010 we plan on being one of the first MVPD providers to offer dedicated 3D programming by introducing three 3D channels to our HD customers who have purchased 3D television sets."
> 
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-4641​


Wasn't the S4 filed a few weeks ago? April 14th this was filed. This is an amended filing of it, something changed, just a question of what. The language with respect to D12 has not changed from the pdf search I did on the filing.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> The rabbit and the turtle are racing, the rabbit is fast, after a while the turtle cannot be seen anywhere, there is just no sign of the turtle period.
> 
> So now the rabbit is slowing down, ready to take a nap. We'll see how the story goes tomorrow


IIRC, the rabbit lost the race. 

Mike


----------



## VeniceDre

D12 is moving and has been on the move for a couple of days now....

Fact or good old fashioned guess? You be the judge.


----------



## P Smith

VeniceDre said:


> D12 *is moving* and *has been* on the move for a couple of days now....
> 
> Fact or good old fashioned guess? You be the judge.


Duh ?


----------



## Hdhead

VeniceDre said:


> D12 is moving and has been on the move for a couple of days now....
> 
> Fact or good old fashioned guess? You be the judge.


:scratch:


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> Wasn't the S4 filed a few weeks ago? April 14th this was filed. This is an amended filing of it, something changed, just a question of what. The language with respect to D12 has not changed from the pdf search I did on the filing.


Was dated today:"As filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on May 3, 2010"​Still had same D12 language, figured it was notable.


----------



## James Long

VeniceDre said:


> D12 is moving and has been on the move for a couple of days now....
> 
> Fact or good old fashioned guess? You be the judge.


Based on the latest TLE D12 is traveling at a velocity of 3.07 km/Hr
The average drift rate is 0.005539747993247151 degrees west per day.


----------



## Skyboss

James Long said:


> Based on the latest TLE D12 is traveling at a velocity of 3.07 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 0.005539747993247151 degrees west per day.


Cool... We'll see a channel in what 13 years? :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> Based on the latest TLE D12 is traveling at a velocity of 3.07 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 0.005539747993247151 degrees west per day.


Of course..you failed ot mention that TLE is going on 5 days old now...rendering those stats meaningless.


----------



## richall01

Check channel 9508, 9509. when D-12 is in place @ 103 you will get the "Correct HD Dish setup...banner. Untill then you will get "Searching for signal...." banner.


----------



## Sixto

D11 finally just got a TLE update.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> D11 finally just got a TLE update.


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Today's (5/3/2010) SEC Filing:"We also believe we currently have one of the most extensive national HD channel offerings as well as the largest lineup of 1080p movies in the MVPD industry. Additionally, when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of television homes. Subscribers receiving local HD channels will generally only receive the channels broadcast in their home market. Additionally, in 2010 we plan on being one of the first MVPD providers to offer dedicated 3D programming by introducing three 3D channels to our HD customers who have purchased 3D television sets."
> 
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-4641​


Nothing like a statement filed with the SEC (under penalty of perjury or some similar statute prohibiting making false financial statements) to remove any doubt that as of today, May 3, 2010, D12's status is still that it has the capacity to bring DIRECTV's total national HD channel capacity up to 200.


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> Nothing like a statement filed with the SEC (under penalty of perjury or some similar statute prohibiting making false financial statements) to remove any doubt that as of today, May 3, 2010, D12's status is still that it has the capacity to bring DIRECTV's total national HD channel capacity up to 200.


Yes. All sources, both public and not, have been stating that since March.


----------



## tko

What about the legal out, "we _expect_ to have the capacity"?


----------



## Tom Robertson

GoPokes43 said:


> The fuel conservation thing may relate to how fast it moves once the drift starts, but the poster's question seems to only relate to why the lengthy time before the drift begins.
> 
> Other than testing as you describe, there could be a couple of other reasons, such as Boeing having other priorities, earth based issues with the equipment for receiving BSS or simply some operational issues with the satellite caused by the launch process or otherwise.
> 
> I wouldn't think there would be too much along the lines of being surprised or missunderstanding how the new frequencies work, even in relation to existing frequencies. This is not the testing of a new theory. For one, testing of equipment would have occured on the ground well before deploying it on a satellite. Additionally, BSS was tested with D11 for up to 120 days in 2008 (and perhaps later as well).


Fuel conservation also applies to how fast the satellite transfers to geostationary orbit after launch. So I included that aspect.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

tko said:


> What about the legal out, "we _expect_ to have the capacity"?


After you do testing, and you still say "expect", and if testing failed, then you lied.

D12 is fine and has the capacity to bring the total to 200, the rest is how the business utilizes it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tko said:


> What about the legal out, "we _expect_ to have the capacity"?


It just means that as of today they expect to have the capacity. If there was ANYTHING currently known to be wrong with that statement they could not make it.

Obviously things _could_ happen at any time. Solar flares can be nasty beasties.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Impala1ss said:


> Why doesn't D* SIMPLY tell us what is happening instead of all the rampant speculation? Why doesn't D* SIMPLY communicate with its subscribers? Now, the answers to these questions would eliminate about 95% of the D* threads.


Your question has been answered: 


Sixto said:


> Today's (5/3/2010) SEC Filing:"We also believe we currently have one of the most extensive national HD channel offerings as well as the largest lineup of 1080p movies in the MVPD industry. Additionally, when our DIRECTV 12 satellite is put into service in the second quarter of 2010, we expect to have the capacity to broadcast approximately 200 national HD channels to nearly all U.S. television households. As part of this rollout, we plan on offering local channels in HD to 19 additional markets, bringing the total number of HD local channel markets to 157-covering over 95% of television homes. Subscribers receiving local HD channels will generally only receive the channels broadcast in their home market. Additionally, in 2010 we plan on being one of the first MVPD providers to offer dedicated 3D programming by introducing three 3D channels to our HD customers who have purchased 3D television sets."
> 
> http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingid=1047469-10-4641​


While the 100 or so readers of this thread might want even more details, this is really all we can expect.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course..you failed ot mention that TLE is going on 5 days old now...rendering those stats meaningless.


Those stats don't have to be meaningless at all. They could still describe D12's orbit accurately enough. Though I doubt it. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Carl Spock

Sixto said:


> D12 is fine and has the capacity to bring the total to 200


Yeah, but what if the Earth stops turning? What happens then?

There's A LOT that isn't being told here. :nono2:


----------



## tuckerdog

I think many people on this site will be disappointed if the next TLE shows no sign of D12 being on the move.
Assuming that D12 is currently drifting towards 103, how does one explain the lack of TLE data over this extended period of time. It seems more than coincidental that this gap in data would occur just at this point.
Clearly movement should not be the issue since numerous TLEs were generated during D12's movement from launch till its testing point.
Will NORAD agree to withholding data?
Speculation,suggestions.
Just curious


----------



## PPW

I think most people are tired of the VAGUENESS of the vast majority of the info that comes from DTV. People want (and will always want) SPECIFICS. I think we won't see many channels roll out (maybe a few at best) by the end of May. If you "read between the lines" DTV has so many open-ended loopholes to add HD channels, realistically it could happen tomorrow or by the end of 2010... odds are about the same.


----------



## BudShark

PPW said:


> I think most people are tired of the VAGUENESS of the vast majority of the info that comes from DTV. People want (and will always want) SPECIFICS. I think we won't see many channels roll out (maybe a few at best) by the end of May. If you "read between the lines" DTV has so many open-ended loopholes to add HD channels, realistically it could happen tomorrow or by the end of 2010... odds are about the same.


I tend to disagree.

They didn't spend $$$ to not use the satellite. 
They didn't lie to the SEC, investors, and the public. 

Therefore; my money goes on somewhere between 30-45 days from today. Of course, I'm not in DirecTVs board room or Engineering building to know EXACTLY what is going on - but suffice it to say, I like where we sit today. 

Ooops... I meant to say the sky is falling, D12 is space debris, and there will be no HD except more PPV... :lol:


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Carl Spock said:


> Yeah, but what if the Earth stops turning? What happens then?


we won't have to worry about TV one side will freeze up while the side facing the sun will burn up :lol:


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the latest TLE D12 is traveling at a velocity of 3.07 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 0.005539747993247151 degrees west per day.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course..you failed ot mention that TLE is going on 5 days old now...rendering those stats meaningless..
Click to expand...

Based on the latest TLE the satellite is traveling at a velocity of 3.078 km/Hr
The average drift rate is 1.2564942521971518 degrees east per day.

Ooops ... wrong satellite.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

James Long said:


> Based on the latest TLE the satellite is traveling at a velocity of 3.078 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 1.2564942521971518 degrees east per day.
> 
> Ooops ... wrong satellite.


Not a super moderator. A super instigator.


----------



## rey_1178

James Long said:


> Based on the latest TLE the satellite is traveling at a velocity of 3.078 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 1.2564942521971518 degrees east per day.
> 
> Ooops ... wrong satellite.


why are you here?


----------



## James Long

flyingtigerfan said:


> Not a super moderator. A super instigator.


I shouldn't have admitted it was the wrong satellite/ I should have waited until people notice the _*east*_ ... but I'm not that cruel.

Still checking for a new TLE. When I stopped checking last night there were two TLEs released ... for the other satellite.



rey_1178 said:


> why are you here?


Comedy relief?

I hope D12 gets a new TLE soon. Really, I do. And I hope it shows the beginning of movement.


----------



## sigma1914

rey_1178 said:


> why are you here?


He's filling in for harsh.


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> IIRC, the rabbit lost the race.
> 
> Mike


The story does not go out so easily. Another version has several turtles working together to fool the rabbit. Believe it or not, it may be happening here too. Today we learned they had lost the control of AMC-12 (?). So now AMC-12 is drifting aimlessly, it could be just the other turtle that can fool the rabbit


----------



## Sixto

PPW said:


> I think most people are tired of the VAGUENESS of the vast majority of the info that comes from DTV. People want (and will always want) SPECIFICS. I think we won't see many channels roll out (maybe a few at best) by the end of May. If you "read between the lines" DTV has so many open-ended loopholes to add HD channels, realistically it could happen tomorrow or by the end of 2010... odds are about the same.


And other people are tired of ... (removed to be nice). 

Obviously, the DirecTV engineers had some stuff to deal with. Was it an issue in space? was it an issue on the ground? was it an issue with communication to space? was it an issue with communication to earth? ... it really doesn't matter, they dealt with it like any smart engineering team would, while the business team reacted like any smart marketing team would. And publicly and privately they say all will be fine.

"Fine" is all that matters, as we let them do their jobs.


----------



## Davenlr

James Long said:


> Based on the latest TLE the satellite is traveling at a velocity of 3.078 km/Hr
> The average drift rate is 1.2564942521971518 degrees east per day.
> 
> Ooops ... wrong satellite.


Yea, the only reason they are drifting it east so quickly, is because Galaxy 15 went bonkers and is chasing it east


----------



## James Long

Davenlr said:


> Yea, the only reason they are drifting it east so quickly, is because Galaxy 15 went bonkers and is chasing it east


Galaxy 15 is at 133 and will still be near there when E14 passes in about three days (based on current TLEs). E14 is chasing Galaxy 15 east, at a much faster and much more controlled rate.

BTW: There is a Galaxy 15 thread for those interested -
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176612


----------



## Davenlr

Maybe they can use E14 to bump G15 back home


----------



## RobertE

Davenlr said:


> Maybe they can use E14 to bump G15 back home


It would be nice if all the E14 talk could be bumped to...oh I don't know...a DISH thread. :nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

PPW said:


> I think most people are tired of the VAGUENESS of the vast majority of the info that comes from DTV. People want (and will always want) SPECIFICS. I think we won't see many channels roll out (maybe a few at best) by the end of May. If you "read between the lines" DTV has so many open-ended loopholes to add HD channels, realistically it could happen tomorrow or by the end of 2010... odds are about the same.


How many specifics do you want before it happens? Negotiations with channel providers are always ongoing. Satellite movements are ongoing (in some fashion, either in the box or drifting.) Things are happening that change the course of the plan.

So how can they be specific to customers and investors before things are ready? Seems like you want them to announce the motion and direction of a tennis ball on a second by second basis during match play: "Ball moving up, falling down, sudden shift toward the net, fast motion and slow drop, bounces back up, sudden raise and change in direction...." 

The SEC filings are specific. D12 is expected to be up soon. Channels are announced to start launching soon. And Satelliteracer says more negotiations are underway. All sounds great to me. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Fab55

Sixto said:


> And other people are tired of ... (removed to be nice).
> 
> Obviously, the DirecTV engineers had some stuff to deal with. Was it an issue in space? was it an issue on the ground? was it an issue with communication to space? was it an issue with communication to earth? ... it really doesn't matter, they dealt with it like any smart engineering team would, while the business team reacted like any smart marketing team would. And publicly and privately they say all will be fine.
> 
> "Fine" is all that matters, as we let them do their jobs.


FINE:
Freaked Out
Insecure
Neurotic
Emotional

Sorry, Couldn't help myself...


----------



## jsg

As I understand it, movement wouldn't pose a problem for calculating a new TLE, everything is always moving, including geostationary satellites. It would be acceleration from being propelled. The XIPS thruster thought to be used for the orbit changes to create the drift is designed to do so by being "fired" for days rather than minutes. During the time it is being accelerated is is not in one orbit but a continuously changing orbit.

The satellite may be raised in orbit for a few days when TLE's might not be available, then it might drift in the new orbit assigned by ground control, then may again go through the process in reverse as it approaches 103. (I think)

If I'm looking at the right XIPS thruster description on the web it appears it has been tested to operate in high power mode for as much as 500-1000 hours. I assume they will calculate things out so that they raise the orbit enough so that, including time to change orbits, it will take about 20 days to drift (the 20 day figure comes from their filings with the FCC).


----------



## jsg

Whoops. That last posting was a reply to tuckerdog wondering about the lack of TLE's. I'm new to this forum.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Solar flares can be nasty beasties.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Unless it's at night.


----------



## ATARI

This thread should pass the 8000 mark sometime tomorrow.

My point?

None, just an impressive number of posts.

Is 10,000 possible?


----------



## tuckerdog

JSG
Thanks for the response
If we see the next TLE, I still wonder why this was the time for such a TLE hiatus?


----------



## James Long

ATARI said:


> This thread should pass the 8000 mark sometime tomorrow.
> 
> My point?
> 
> None, just an impressive number of posts.
> 
> Is 10,000 possible?


Yes. And depending on time zone 8000 would be easy to hit tonight.


----------



## cebbigh

If a satellite drifts and no one observes it, does it matter?


----------



## texasmoose

What will happen first? D12 commences drifting to its new home or this thread hitting the 8000 mark?!?!?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

texasmoose said:


> What will happen first? D12 commences drifting to its new home or this thread hitting the 8000 mark?!?!?


That's one of those rhetorical thingamajigs, ain't it? :lol:


----------



## hyde76

More likely, for those of us with the default view, the thread will reach 200 pages before it hits 8000 posts. I'm pretty sure D12 has been drifting and the next TLE will say that it's happily at 103, just like D11 did.


----------



## Dradran

Neyo says D12 is still at 76 degrees. Is that site accurate?

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


----------



## hyde76

It's not accurate. It uses the same TLE data that the mods of this thread get and since there's been no new TLE, N2YO get's the same old data.


----------



## Jeremy W

James Long said:


> Yes. And depending on time zone 8000 would be easy to hit tonight.


Doesn't look like 8000 will be possible for the continental US.


----------



## Dradran

hyde76 said:


> It's not accurate. It uses the same TLE data that the mods of this thread get and since there's been no new TLE, N2YO get's the same old data.


When the new TLE finally arrives, it should be accurate. Correct?


----------



## Jeremy W

Dradran said:


> When the new TLE finally arrives, it should be accurate. Correct?


That site is never _really_ accurate, it's always just an extrapolation based off the latest TLE. And if the new TLE arrives mid-drift, it'll definitely be inaccurate.


----------



## afulkerson

Another day without a TLE from D12. There was a new one from D11 but none from D12.


----------



## Neural762

> Originally Posted by *D12's Mom*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _How come you never call any more? Your father and I worry._


----------



## James Long

Jeremy W said:


> That site is never _really_ accurate, it's always just an extrapolation based off the latest TLE. And if the new TLE arrives mid-drift, it'll definitely be inaccurate.


It is a decent site, but their "latest TLE" is often a day or two behind the real "latest TLE". It doesn't make too much difference for satellites that are not changing their orbital characteristics.

At this point the TLE n2yo _IS_ using is the same last TLE that we have. (It helps when the last TLE is very old.)

Checking a more up to date source (one that regularly publishes TLEs within a few hours of their effective time) and there have been no changes since last Thursday morning. I do feel like I'm wearing out the refresh button on my browser checking for D12 changes.


----------



## smiddy

Good morning all, Cinco de Mayo is tomorrow! Do you know where your DirecTV - 12 is?


----------



## R0am3r

smiddy said:


> Good morning all, Cinco de Mayo is tomorrow! Do you know where your DirecTV - 12 is?


If I was D12, I would be at a bar on the River Walk in San Antonio.


----------



## loudo

smiddy said:


> Good morning all, Cinco de Mayo is tomorrow! Do you know where your DirecTV - 12 is?


D12 is celebrating with an ice cold Corona. :goodjob:


----------



## Hdhead

At this point I have to believe the withholding of TLE data is intentional and in collaboration with Boeing.


----------



## leww37334

Hdhead said:


> At this point I have to believe the withholding of TLE data is intentional and in collaboration with Boeing.


Brace yourself for the personal attacks, they will start very soon.....


----------



## georule

This Thursday, between 2:00pm and 3:00pm ET, you'll get your D12 update. I predict that opening remarks will include a reference that she is drifting to her "go live" orbit, and that a later question from one of the analysts on how the testing process went will be answered that nothing particularly unusual was encountered.


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> At this point I have to believe the withholding of TLE data is intentional and in collaboration with Boeing.


I doubt Boeing and Directv have that much pull with USSPACECOM.


----------



## Hdhead

LameLefty said:


> I doubt Boeing and Directv have that much pull with USSPACECOM.


D* no, Boeing yes.


----------



## Hdhead

LameLefty said:


> I doubt Boeing and Directv have that much pull with USSPACECOM.


United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM) is one of the ten Unified Combatant Commands of the United States Department of Defense. The Command, including components, employs more than 2,700 people, representing all four services, *including DoD Civilians and contractors*, who oversee the command's operationally focused global strategic mission.

USSTRATCOM is headquartered at Offutt Air Force Base south of Omaha, Nebraska. In 2002, USSTRATCOM absorbed the United States Space Command (USSPACECOM).


----------



## James Long

Neural762 said:


> Originally Posted by *D12's Mom*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _How come you never call any more? Your father and I worry._
Click to expand...


----------



## Doug Brott

James Long said:


>


I hope no one can decode those numbers at the bottom .. you weren't supposed to post those


----------



## rrrick8

James Long said:


>





Doug Brott said:


> I hope no one can decode those numbers at the bottom .. you weren't supposed to post those


Well, using my IPhone barcode scanner app, it states "Scrap Metal".


----------



## jefbal99

Fab55 said:


> FINE:
> Freaked Out
> Insecure
> Neurotic
> Emotional
> 
> Sorry, Couldn't help myself...


Somebody has been watching the Italian Job 



James Long said:


>


Scrap metal, very funny.


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM) is one of the ten Unified Combatant Commands of the United States Department of Defense. The Command, including components, employs more than 2,700 people, representing all four services, *including DoD Civilians and contractors*, who oversee the command's operationally focused global strategic mission.
> 
> USSTRATCOM is headquartered at Offutt Air Force Base south of Omaha, Nebraska. In 2002, USSTRATCOM absorbed the United States Space Command (USSPACECOM).


[/cue spooky music]

:lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> Somebody has been watching the Italian Job
> 
> Scrap metal, very funny.


Someone must have gotten this confused with the previous Dish satellite that failed and ended up being virtual scrap metal...


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Someone must have gotten this confused with the previous Dish satellite that failed and ended up being virtual scrap metal...


That explains it! All old materials used by DISH


----------



## Hutchinshouse

James Long said:


>


Now that is funny.


----------



## LameLefty

In all seriousness, you know, as someone else pointed out some time back in the thread, this long dry spell between TLEs is probably what Satelliteracer was referring to with his playful, cryptic "Wormhole" comment earlier. That could have indicated that the vehicle is in the process of an extended "burn" of the XIPS, with the idea that TLEs aren't being generated and publicly disseminated until the completion of the maneuver.


----------



## Hdhead

LameLefty said:


> In all seriousness, you know, as someone else pointed out some time back in the thread, this long dry spell between TLEs is probably what Satelliteracer was referring to with his playful, cryptic "Wormhole" comment earlier. That could have indicated that the vehicle is in the process of an extended "burn" of the XIPS, with the idea that TLEs aren't being generated and publicly disseminated until the completion of the maneuver.


But you have indicated that there is no collusion between D*, Boeing and SPACECOMMAND on TLE disclosure??????????


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> But you have indicated that there is no collusion between D*, Boeing and SPACECOMMAND on TLE disclosure??????????


It's not about collusion, it's about accuracy. As I've explained many times (going back to the D10 thread in mid-2007), a TLE is a snapshot in time. If the observations used to generate an element set are made during a propulsive event, they are less than useless - they are dangerous to other satellite operators who may rely on them for accuracy in coordinating and controlling the movements of their own spacecraft.

Ergo, that is not collusion or any other absurd conspiracy theory, it's just common sense.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> If the observations used to generate an element set are made during a propulsive event, they are less than useless - they are dangerous to other satellite operators who may rely on them for accuracy in coordinating and controlling the movements of their own spacecraft.


So it's less dangerous for them to simply have no idea where D12 is?


----------



## syphix

Jeremy W said:


> So it's less dangerous for them to simply have no idea where D12 is?


They know where it is. Hell, _*I*_ know where it is. It's right there. {*points upward*} No, now it's _there_. Geez, it keeps moving! Over _there_!!! Follow it!!!!


----------



## Hoosier205

Jeremy W said:


> So it's less dangerous for them to simply have no idea where D12 is?


Who said they have no idea where it is? Those who need to know...know. Those who do not need to know (which includes all of us)...do not.


----------



## hdtvfan0001




----------



## Jeremy W

Hoosier205 said:


> Who said they have no idea where it is? Those who need to know...know. Those who do not need to know (which includes all of us)...do not.


Please re-read the post I quoted for some context.


----------



## mobandit

Please remember, the posting of TLE's by USSTRATCOM is a public service, one that they can withhold. The general public does not have an intrinsic 'right' to this information. Those that need to have it, have access to it...


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> So it's less dangerous for them to simply have no idea where D12 is?


Who said that? There are industry methods of disseminating technical information that are not public. In fact, satellite operators are required by federal and international regulation to coordinate their movements. I'm reasonably sure that Boeing's satellite controllers haven't forgotten that, and have informed all the players who own or operate spacecraft in the 76º - 103º arc of their planned trajectory and maneuvers.


----------



## Hoosier205

What Lefty said.

Those who need to know...know. The rest of us can wait patiently.


----------



## Tom_S

LameLefty said:


> Who said that? There are industry methods of disseminating technical information that are not public. In fact, satellite operators are required by federal and international regulation to coordinate their movements. I'm reasonably sure that Boeing's satellite controllers haven't forgotten that, and have informed all the players who own or operate spacecraft in the 76º - 103º arc of their planned trajectory and maneuvers.


So then what would be dangerous about a TLE while in propulsion. Since apparently all this coordination is done behind the scenes anyway?


----------



## BudShark

As much as people here want to ASSUME we have as much information as needed to declare problems, we simply don't.

TLEs are not public fact that must be given
We don't know or have the FCC/Boeing/DirecTV testing results or list of items to be tested.

The only thing we KNOW:

DirecTV released a press release saying more channels in May.
DirecTV has not filed anything with the SEC.

So what does that tell us for facts?
DirecTV is fine and will be on service as planned in May. Until either an SEC filing or a revised press release or June 1st with no new channels - its just a bunch of chicken little sky is falling non-sense to assume ANYTHING is wrong with D12.


----------



## Lt Disher

LameLefty said:


> It's not about collusion, it's about accuracy. As I've explained many times (going back to the D10 thread in mid-2007), a TLE is a snapshot in time. If the observations used to generate an element set are made during a propulsive event, they are less than useless - they are dangerous to other satellite operators who may rely on them for accuracy in coordinating and controlling the movements of their own spacecraft.
> 
> Ergo, that is not collusion or any other absurd conspiracy theory, it's just common sense.


Your comments make apparent sense. Why would TLE's be released for other satellites during their propulsive events? (Just look at other threads to see examples.)


----------



## Alan Gordon

Kudos to James Long for the hilarious milk carton gag!! :lol:

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Hoosier205 said:


> Who said they have no idea where it is? Those who need to know...know. Those who do not need to know (which includes all of us)...do not.





Hoosier205 said:


> What Lefty said.
> 
> Those who need to know...know. The rest of us can wait patiently.


Some good stuff this morning!

Exactly.


----------



## tuckerdog

I don't know why or how TLE's are being publicly withheld, but I do a do know a purposeful interruption when I see it. ;-)


----------



## LameLefty

Tom_S said:


> So then what would be dangerous about a TLE while in propulsion. Since apparently all this coordination is done behind the scenes anyway?


Because other, seemingly unaffected operators, might use them to begin planning their own operations to their detriment. They'll see a new TLE (as opposed to one that hasn't changed in a week) and think, "Ah, good. Now that I know what they're doing, I can consider this . . ." and be completely wrong, because the TLE "snapshot" was taken during the middle (or at the beginning or at the end) of a maneuver.

By contrast, looking at a static TLE that hasn't changed in awhile, after a long series of updates, lets satellite operators know that it's more than likely stale data and they ought to seek out coordination on their own if they want to leave their station keeping envelopes.


----------



## Sixto

As we've shown, was exactly the same with D11. 

Multiple days with no TLE, around major events. 

Same with D10. 

We've learned ... normal for D1x.


----------



## LameLefty

Lt Disher said:


> Your comments make apparent sense. Why would TLE's be released for other satellites during their propulsive events? (Just look at other threads to see examples.)


They're not. They are released before or after them, or in between multiple events. If they are, it's usually a mistake (and explains why there are occasionally subsequent element sets released with earlier dates, as the data is corrected).


----------



## Hdhead

Well, I just want all of us who are interested to have the facts. Until just now it as been understood and disseminated in this thread that all TLEs are public information and that Spacecommand works independently of private sector interests. We have now done a 180 and proclaim that TLEs are withheld when orbital manuevours are in progess. Just find that to be a bit of a revelation in this thread.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> Because other, seemingly unaffected operators, might use them to begin planning their own operations to their detriment.


What you're saying seems pretty ridiculous to me, but you are the expert and you're giving the only explanation for the evidence we have, so I will defer to your expertise.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think "withheld" is the wrong word. That implies that someone is trying to hide something. I have only a cursory understanding of a lot of the laws involved, but I don't think that there is any responsibility on the part of the Government or the corporations involved to communicate anything to anyone.


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> We have now done a 180 and proclaim that TLEs are withheld when orbital manuevours are in progess. Just find that to be a bit of a revelation in this thread.


Go back and read a little more slowly . . . TLEs from SPACECOM are not being "withheld," inasmuch as not being generated and verified and disseminated for others to use because they would be inaccurate. They're incorrect from the moment they're generated until maneuvers cease long enough for a new series of observations to be made and orbital elements generated from those observations.

Boeing's satellite controllers are generating and planning their own orbital models and trajectory simulations just as they always have for their own purposes. They inform those affected along their flight path as required by law and regulation. That said, those industry communications aren't public and they don't need to be.


----------



## pfp

I've got this weird sense of deja vu


----------



## Sixto

pfp said:


> I've got this weird sense of deja vu


D10/D11 deja vu.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> What you're saying seems pretty ridiculous to me, but you are the expert and you're giving the only explanation for the evidence we have, so I will defer to your expertise.


Why is it ridiculous? Someone looks at the data and says, "Lookie! A new TLE for D12. Boeing must be moving that bird finally. Great, now we can plan our own move for Satcompany 42 . . . where will D12 be in about 7 days? It won't be anywhere near us, right? Perfect! We don't have to coordinate because they won't be within so many degrees of our station keeping envelope or planned trajectory . . ."

Meanwhile, since that TLE for D12 is totally and utterly wrong (being as it was generated during a propulsive event), maybe Satco 42 isn't quite as safe as they think they will be and there will be interference. There's more involved than just the risk of collision - RF interference and overlap of TTC&C signals might happen and render one or more of the satellites inoperable or incommunicado.

However, in reality since no new elements have been generated for D12 in a lengthy period of time as compared to its past movements and as compared to the release history for previous data sets, a prudent Satco 42 operator will say, "Hmmm . . . there were elsets nearly every day for months, sometimes even more than one per day. Now nothing. This data is presumptively stale. I better not do a darned thing until I confirm this with someone who knows. Hey Bob, what's the number for the Boeing control building down in El Segundo? I want to verify some stuff before we plan our moves."


----------



## syphix

So, this is the "norm" for D1x, as Sixto puts it. Then why does Dish "allow" TLE's to show their bird drifting? Are they doing something differently?


----------



## Hdhead

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think "withheld" is the wrong word. That implies that someone is trying to hide something. I have only a cursory understanding of a lot of the laws involved, but I don't think that there is any responsibility on the part of the Government or the corporations involved to communicate anything to anyone.


Let's choose another word then. abstain, bridle, check, clam up, conceal, constrain, curb, deduct, deny, detain, disallow, dummy up, hide, hold, hold back, hold down, hold out, hold out on, inhibit, keep, keep secret, keep to oneself, keep under one's hat, keep under wraps, kill, refrain, refuse, repress, reserve, resist, restrain, sit on, suppress.

Suppress works for me.:lol:


----------



## jdspencer

I wonder if the problem with Galaxy 15 is going to be a concern?
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/03/intense-solar-storm-spins-satellite-control/

Yeah, I know it's far away, but interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Hdhead

Galaxy 15 has obviously been hijacked by aliens. But SpaceCommand is suppressing that information.:grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It seems to me this will all become crystal clear very soon. I've been getting a very good feeling lately. Something tells me the satellite will be on service as planned.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> ...
> *Boeing's satellite controllers are generating and planning their own orbital models and trajectory simulations just as they always have for their own purposes.  They inform those affected along their flight path as required by law and regulation. That said, those industry communications aren't public and they don't need to be.*





LameLefty said:


> Why is it ridiculous? Someone looks at the data and says, "Lookie! A new TLE for D12. Boeing must be moving that bird finally. Great, now we can plan our own move for Satcompany 42 . . . where will D12 be in about 7 days? It won't be anywhere near us, right? Perfect! We don't have to coordinate because they won't be within so many degrees of our station keeping envelope or planned trajectory . . ."
> 
> Meanwhile, since that TLE for D12 is totally and utterly wrong (being as it was generated during a propulsive event), maybe Satco 42 isn't quite as safe as they think they will be and there will be interference. There's more involved than just the risk of collision - RF interference and overlap of TTC&C signals might happen and render one or more of the satellites inoperable or incommunicado.
> 
> However, in reality since no new elements have been generated for D12 in a lengthy period of time as compared to its past movements and as compared to the release history for previous data sets, a prudent Satco 42 operator will say, "Hmmm . . . there were elsets nearly every day for months, sometimes even more than one per day. Now nothing. This data is presumptively stale. I better not do a darned thing until I confirm this with someone who knows. Hey Bob, what's the number for the Boeing control building down in El Segundo? I want to verify some stuff before we plan our moves."


Just seems to be some conflict between your statements in these two posts here though LL.

Shouldn't all potentially affected satellite operators along D12's flight path entering, during, and exiting its drift phase be notified and kept abreast through non-public industry communications and not have to rely on TLEs?


----------



## jsg

syphix said:


> So, this is the "norm" for D1x, as Sixto puts it. Then why does Dish "allow" TLE's to show their bird drifting? Are they doing something differently?


From what I gather the TLE's _can_ be generated while drifting, just not while undergoing a propulsive event.

A propulsive event would be the start of the drift or the end of the drift or during alterations to perfect an orbit. Once the thrusters are off valid TLE's can be generated.

If there is a time for D12 when it is in the desired higher orbit for drift, without correction for a time, I assume we could see a drifting TLE from it. If the ground controllers go directly from pressing the accelerator to hitting the brake no TLE will accurately describe its future track until they are done.

Why would E14 and D12 be different? Because E14 is using a powerful rocket thruster which makes the orbital changes necessary in minutes while D12 is using solar powered thrusters to make the changes necessary by thrusting for days. So D12 is under propulsion for a much greater percentage of time. I'm hoping for pedal down all the way since I think that might mean the least amount of time to reach destination.

In any case, solar power is good, right? 

LameLefty and others know infinitely much more than I do about this, but I've been piecing this together.
==
Originally said E14 was under propulsion a greater percentage of the time, meant D12.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

I wonder if there are D* engineers and Boeing people who are laughing at all of the anxiety some of the posters here are feeling.

And why is no news so frequently viewed as having a negative connotation? I get the feeling that some people would be happy if something went wrong just so they could post "I knew it!" and then ***** about everything.


----------



## pfp

Sixto said:


> D10/D11 thread deja vu.


Fixed


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Just seems to be some conflict between your statements in these two posts here though LL.
> 
> Shouldn't all potentially affected satellite operators along D12's flight path entering, during, and exiting its drift phase be notified and kept abreast through non-public industry communications and not have to rely on TLEs?


Yep. The problem is, not all affected satellite operators realize they are affected and sometimes operators who aren't affected (or think they won't be) go ahead and make plans that end up being affected, even when neither party initially expects them to be.

To explain my previous example a little bit more . . . Let's say Satco 42 is going to go out of service and be lobbed up into a graveyard orbit. That inaccurate TLE for D12 comes out and Satco's operators say, "Hey the drift for D12 is going on." They project out the path based on that TLE, then do the same for their own orbit raising to graveyard and don't see any kind of conflict over the applicable time period - since they're not close enough to require coordination, they don't bother. Of course, that TLE for D12 is not accurate - it was generated during a maneuvering period. So perhaps that orbital maneuver for Satco 42 is now much closer to D12 than anticipated - it seems they SHOULD have coordinated but didn't think it would be necessary. Oops.


----------



## Jeremy W

SPACEMAKER said:


> I get the feeling that some people would be happy if something went wrong just so they could post "I knew it!" and then ***** about everything.


That's exactly what I'm waiting for. Although I plan to ***** even if nothing goes wrong.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> So perhaps that orbital maneuver for Satco 42 is now much closer to D12 than anticipated - it seems they SHOULD have coordinated but didn't think it would be necessary. Oops.


The reason I said this seems ridiculous is because I can't imagine any company being so careless with equipment worth hundreds of millions of dollars that is 22,000 miles away.


----------



## BudShark

HoTat2 said:


> Just seems to be some conflict between your statements in these two posts here though LL.
> 
> Shouldn't all potentially affected satellite operators along D12's flight path entering, during, and exiting its drift phase be notified and kept abreast through non-public industry communications and not have to rely on TLEs?


I think this is a case of the difficulties involved in this. There are infinitely more layers than the common layman understands. So Lefty is often trying to explain things, without going to the nth degree and making it more confusing - but that might leave what appear to be holes.

The simple answer is this - there is a series of prep and planning that goes into place. That may be done without formal communication using TLEs to predict actions/dates/activities. If someone were to spend engineering dollars/time on planning off bad TLEs, then pick up the phone to Boeing for FINAL planning and submit the paperwork ONLY to find out their TLEs and plans were wrong and they have to start over - well it would be a waste.

The fact is, publicly released TLEs are interesting. Thats about it.


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> Go back and read a little more slowly . . . TLEs from SPACECOM are not being "withheld," inasmuch as not being generated and verified and disseminated for others to use because they would be inaccurate.


So leaving the inaccurate TLE 170 as status quo is better than releasing something closer to reality?



LameLefty said:


> Someone looks at the data and says, "Lookie! A new TLE for D12. Boeing must be moving that bird finally. Great, now we can plan our own move for Satcompany 42 . . . where will D12 be in about 7 days? It won't be anywhere near us, right? Perfect! We don't have to coordinate because they won't be within so many degrees of our station keeping envelope or planned trajectory . . ."


Pointless. If that someone is anywhere near enough to worry about D12 they would have been notified by Boeing about D12's move and not be relying 100% on TLEs. At least that is what you said.



> However, in reality since no new elements have been generated for D12 in a lengthy period of time as compared to its past movements and as compared to the release history for previous data sets, a prudent Satco 42 operator will say, "Hmmm . . . there were elsets nearly every day for months, sometimes even more than one per day. Now nothing. This data is presumptively stale.


So Satco 42 is supposed to track ALL satellites and GUESS when the next TLE is coming out? They are supposed to NOTICE that the TLE release period has changed by observation? Nonsense.

There are a lot of TLEs that are four or five days old. Why should the operator of a geostationary satellite be the one responsible to "notice" that a geostationary satellite several degrees away has an old TLE and may be closer than it appears? If what you are said about Boeing coordinating the move is correct they would have received notice!

And having received notice they would know better than to fully trust a TLE.

So ... what is the harm with putting out a TLE during the move? No satellite operator affected by the move would remain un-notified so it isn't like they are going to do as you suggested and GUESS that D12 will be getting out of the way. At least not any more that they would GUESS that D12 isn't right where the last report places it.

If everyone affected is notified there is no harm with telling the rest of the world the truth ... that the satellite was moving at a certain trajectory at a certain time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> So leaving the inaccurate TLE 170 as status quo is better than releasing something closer to reality?


It's fine if anyone bothers to look at the TLE *date*.

The fact that there is no update since 4/29 simple translates easily into "standy by for an update when its ready".

This is all being blown way out of proportion and overhyped into something its not. It's a pause in reporting...and the next time its updated, I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a new location.


----------



## James Long

BudShark said:


> So Lefty is often trying to explain things, without going to the nth degree and making it more confusing - but that might leave what appear to be holes.


The scenarios have gone too far ...

A simple truth is better. Holes are created by digging.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Guys, here's the thing. 

DIRECTV and Boeing don't owe you hourly updates on their satellites. DIRECTV12 is fine. It will be on service as planned. I know that's not satisfying enough for all of you, so here's what you have to do...

You need to decide if you're going to enjoy the anticipation and trying to read the signs and portents. You need to figure out if this is fun for you. 

If it's not, don't participate in this thread. D12 will come online and you won't even know it. New HD channels will be added and your receiver will just pick them up, no effort required on your part. 

If, on the other hand, you enjoy this little detective game we're all playing, then stay. It's a lot of fun to anticipate and try to figure stuff out. 

Either way, be happy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

James Long said:


> The scenarios have gone too far ...


So have the Chicken Little theories...


----------



## PWenger

I work in a pharmacy, and this thread is starting to remind me of "snow panic." 

Every time the local news predicts a snow storm, people call me up and ask what I am going to do about it. I say the same thing everytime. "I can't stop the snow, I can't tell you how much snow we will have. If it snows to the point I can't safely make it in to work, I won't be there. If I can make it, I will. If our wholesalers can deliever, they will. If they can't, we might run out of stuff. In any case, within two or three days at most, everything will be back to normal. And if it snows to the point we are immobile for more than that, we'll all have other things to worry about."

If D12 is drifting, it is. If it's not, no one here can do anything about it. If D12 exploded, I don't think anyone here could put it back together (except maybe lamelefty, but it would probably take a while... ) If anybody knows more, they are bound by contract, law, or just plain integrity to not say anything...and that is a good thing, because it means we'll continue to get tidbits and heads up when possible.

I had a friend that told me every April since 1995 that "This is the year the Phillies would go all the way." He tried to tell me what a genius he was in 2008. I didn't buy it. If everytime a satellite goes up, or a TLE isn't posted you yell, "There's a major malfunction!", it doesn't mean you get to say you're right if something happens. It just means statistics finally fell in your favor.

If D12 is now sitting in a smoking crater in the Austrailian outback, I'll still trust Sixto, Stuart, Lamelefty, and Tom R. (and I apologize if I am forgetting anyone of the calmer heads here), because on the information available to them, they drew well thought out conclusions. Occaisionally, S#&* just happens...


----------



## garyhall

Did the D10 & D11 702s have XIPS propulsion system like D12? Just wondering if the propulsive time for drifts will be consistent or if D12 will take longer due to XIPS.

Thanks.


----------



## Hoosier205

The fact that people here are practically demanding an update on information they don't actually need is laughable. Just sit back and relax folks. The folks who need to be in the loop are already in the loop. The sense of entitlement here is off the charts. We should just lock this thread until there is something new to report. 

If you feel that you deserve to know where the bird is at every waking moment...get a job with Boeing prior to the next launch.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

James Long said:


> I shouldn't have admitted it was the wrong satellite/ I should have waited until people notice the _*east*_ ... but I'm not that cruel.
> 
> Our friends all get tickled at my wife - she's the quiet type - but we'll all be having a conversation and then she'll interject something. You don't realize until 10 minutes into the argument that ensues just who started it. She just sits back and watches in great entertainment you see.


----------



## oldfantom

Stuart Sweet said:


> It seems to me this will all become crystal clear very soon. I've been getting a very good feeling lately. Something tells me the satellite will be on service as planned.


It was someone, not something. I have been following closely, Tom says it is OK, then you say it is OK. I see a circular pattern of assurance that is really quite disturbing.

In other words, i have nothing any more constructive to add than poor jokes.


----------



## LameLefty

It's times like this that I really wonder why I bother. :nono:

AND that I was a "Super Moderator" myself. Some things definitely need moderation in this thread. The only "nonsense" in this thread is coming from someone who needs to learn physics, engineering, spaceflight operations, orbital mechanics and TACT.


----------



## Alan Gordon

flyingtigerfan said:


> Our friends all get tickled at my wife - she's the quiet type - but we'll all be having a conversation and then she'll interject something. You don't realize until 10 minutes into the argument that ensues just who started it. She just sits back and watches in great entertainment you see.


Smart lady! Lucky man! 

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

oldfantom said:


> It was someone, not something. I have been following closely, Tom says it is OK, then you say it is OK. I see a circular pattern of assurance that is really quite disturbing.
> 
> In other words, i have nothing any more constructive to add than poor jokes.


Well, you have to figure out which of these two scenarios is more likely:

Either (a) Tom, Doug, Sixto and I are sitting around making stuff up and using each other as sources, or;

(b) we all have the same sources who are telling us all the same thing, that's why our stories match.

Really, what do you think?


----------



## TDK1044

This thread is in much more trouble than D12. 

New HD channels before the end of the month, and more before the end of the year. Sounds like a plan to me.


----------



## Hoosier205

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, you have to figure out which of these two scenarios is more likely:
> 
> Either (a) Tom, Doug, Sixto and I are sitting around making stuff up and using each other as sources, or;
> 
> (b) we all have the same sources who are telling us all the same thing, that's why our stories match.
> 
> Really, what do you think?


The logical answer is (b), but it is also obvious that we are not exactly dealing with the most logical folks here.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

By folks here, do you mean me?  :lol:


----------



## syphix

I guess it just comes down to this: is this really something to fret over?

Many in the know are saying things are fine. History has shown that this silence period is *normal*. For whatever reason (does it really matter "why"?), TLE's are routinely not updated at about this same time in the life of D*'s D1x satellites. And each time, the bird has appeared where it needed to.

Time to go outside and enjoy the real world. After all, it's in HD _and_ 3D...and available NOW!


----------



## jsg

James Long said:


> So leaving the inaccurate TLE 170 as status quo is better than releasing something closer to reality?


It might be better to release something that says TLE 170 is invalid, but I guess they don't. If they did you have to get the people who redistribute the data to mark theirs, too. It apparently just isn't done that way. The data just gets stale when it is no longer valid & there can be no reasonably accurate TLE computed to replace it.

A body under acceleration simply cannot be characterized with a TLE. A TLE isn't meant to (just) tell you where something is, it is meant to predict where it will be. But a TLE doesn't have enough fields to allow any reasonable prediction to be made if the object is undergoing acceleration from propulsion.

Better none than wrong.

I think I read that they take several observations (three?) to compute a TLE and I assume they do this over some period of time. If that's right they then would have to feed this into an algorithm to solve the equations to come up with the TLE that would produce those observations. If all of what I said just happens to be correct I don't see how the algorithm could come up with anything at all for a new TLE, even an approximation.

Even if they could they would have to see hallmark of the propulsion and mark the TLE so that others would know that it wasn't up to the usual standards of accuracy. There's no field in a TLE format for that.

I wish I could find what I read again, but I looked for it this morning and couldn't find it.


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> Because other, seemingly unaffected operators, might use them to begin planning their own operations to their detriment. They'll see a new TLE (as opposed to one that hasn't changed in a week) and think, "Ah, good. Now that I know what they're doing, I can consider this . . ." and be completely wrong, because the TLE "snapshot" was taken during the middle (or at the beginning or at the end) of a maneuver.
> 
> By contrast, looking at a static TLE that hasn't changed in awhile, after a long series of updates, lets satellite operators know that it's more than likely stale data and they ought to seek out coordination on their own if they want to leave their station keeping envelopes.


I am confused. You said earlier that there are industry methods that we don't know about that they use to coordinate satellite movements. That makes sense. It seems that those methods would be more accurate and therefore the industry standard. Why would they use an inaccurate TLE then?


----------



## LameLefty

raoul5788 said:


> I am confused. You said earlier that there are industry methods that we don't know about that they use to coordinate satellite movements. That makes sense. It seems that those methods would be more accurate and therefore the industry standard. Why would they use an inaccurate TLE then?


One more time: The coordination goes on between parties known or likely to be affected. The TLEs that are released are not (intentionally) inaccurate. It was a hypothetical situation, stemming from the discussion of why TLEs are not released for long periods of time during extended propulsive events.

IF an inaccurate data set was released and used by someone as the basis for the assumption that they are unaffected, that would be the problem.


----------



## Darkscream

LameLefty said:


> One more time: The coordination goes on between parties known or likely to be affected. The TLEs that are released are not (intentionally) inaccurate. It was a hypothetical situation, stemming from the discussion of why TLEs are not released for long periods of time during extended propulsive events.
> 
> IF an inaccurate data set was released and used by someone as the basis for the assumption that they are unaffected, that would be the problem.


Seems logical to me.
Why put out a TLE that shows something somewhere - when it really isn't there. Or at least not there now.


----------



## pfp




----------



## BudShark

LameLefty said:


> It's times like this that I really wonder why I bother. :nono:
> 
> AND that I was a "Super Moderator" myself. Some things definitely need moderation in this thread. The only "nonsense" in this thread is coming from someone who needs to learn physics, engineering, spaceflight operations, orbital mechanics and TACT.


You are a more patient man than I am. When people who are guessing about a topic which I have knowledge in, want to debate and argue with me, I tend to walk away and leave them with no information. Since they have no knowledge to begin with, and were simply using _MY_ knowledge to create arguments with me - they are left to sit quietly alone having learned nothing and gained nothing. Its a sad place for them to be.


----------



## Skyboss




----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> It's times like this that I really wonder why I bother. :nono:
> 
> AND that I was a "Super Moderator" myself. Some things definitely need moderation in this thread. The only "nonsense" in this thread is coming from someone who needs to learn physics, engineering, spaceflight operations, orbital mechanics and TACT.


You made something up and got called on it. Sorry.

TLEs won't be released during a move because they are inaccurate vs an old TLE that is certainly inaccurate if D12 isn't at 76. The idea that releasing a TLE showing movement would be bad because another satellite operator may use that TLE to predict movement and conflict with D12s moves?

BTW: Unless you're breaking a rule of the forum I'm just another poster here.


----------



## Prince Oz

OK, I can't take it anymore. I have been following this thread for it seems like forever. I want to thank all of you for making my day every time I read this thread. This is some really good stuff. What do I think about D12? It does not matter to me. If it happens it happens, if it don't it don't. I came from the era of watching BW TV and my dad telling me to get up and change the channel. What I have now with D* is like heaven. I hope it is going to be a suprise. One day I will get home and BOOM, more HD. Wooo Hooo:grin:


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> You made something up and got called on it. Sorry.


I made up a hypothetical scenario that is all too plausible. Your (continued) inability or refusal to comprehend that is no longer my concern.



> BTW: Unless you're breaking a rule of the forum I'm just another poster here.


That is very good to know.


----------



## elaclair

LameLefty said:


> It's times like this that I really wonder why I bother. :nono:
> 
> AND that I was a "Super Moderator" myself. Some things definitely need moderation in this thread. The only "nonsense" in this thread is coming from someone who needs to learn physics, engineering, spaceflight operations, orbital mechanics and TACT.


Oh man, you are SO right.....


----------



## PWenger

You know, years from now, when the next satellite is launched, I would appreciate some one putting up a link to this archived thread. 

I will think back to the last few weeks of the D12 thread, and take a hammer and hit myself in the head with it a few times. I'll feel the same way I do now, but I won't have wasted as much time getting there.

But at the risk of sounding positive and thereby getting attacked by the multitudes, I would like to thank Sixto for starting this thread, working on it so hard with little thanks from so many, and spending the time to provide us with real information. I barely have time to watch my friggin Directv between work and my first grader, but he's managed to search out and provide great information for those of us perverted enough to think of DBS as a hobby. You, sir, are further proof that no good deed goes unpunished....


----------



## TDK1044

Are we there yet?


----------



## Skyboss

TDK1044 said:


> Are we there yet?


Is it Memorial Day yet?


----------



## evan_s

garyhall said:


> Did the D10 & D11 702s have XIPS propulsion system like D12? Just wondering if the propulsive time for drifts will be consistent or if D12 will take longer due to XIPS.
> 
> Thanks.


Yes they all use the XIPS system. All three are almost identical. There are minor differences in how the spots are aimed and D11 has the experimental BSS package it tested and D12 has 4 bss spots it will use.


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> You made something up and got called on it. Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> I made up a hypothetical scenario that is all too plausible. Your (continued) inability or refusal to comprehend that is no longer my concern.
Click to expand...

When you entered the hypothetical you exited your safe world of "I'm an expert, trust me" and entered the level playing field of "lets be logical together".

Your personal attacks being ignored for the moment, your hypothetical was incorrect as any satellite operator who would look at a "moving" TLE and assume it was safe would be more likely to look at a "parked" TLE and assume it was safe. You're asking us to assume that satellite operators assume.

I agree with your claim that the operators coordinate with each other but I disagree with the hypothetical that any reasonable satellite operator would look at a "moving" TLE and assume their move would be safe without contacting the operator of the "moving" satellite for more information.

And as far as the comparisons to D10 and D11 ...
Were either of those satellites launched to and tested at an orbital location 27 degrees away from the final location? It would probably be better to compare the D12 move to a satellite that has moved that far than to D10 or D11. Especially if you can find another XIPS powered move as a comparison.


----------



## P Smith

There is no reason to withheld TLE. 
Well... perhaps just one: the D sats using military technology for rapid movements what other warheads utilize.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Your personal attacks being ignored for the moment...


Pot, meet...

You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> When you entered the hypothetical you exited your safe world of "I'm an expert, trust me" and entered the level playing field of "lets be logical together".


(Snipped)

Did you miss the part where I said, "Your continued inability or refusal to comprehend is no longer my concern" ? 

For further elucidation, go back and read the archived D10 and D11 threads in their entirety.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Hoosier205 said:


> Pot, meet...
> 
> You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.


Unforutnately, I have to agree with your assessment.

Mike


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Alan Gordon said:


> Kudos to James Long for the hilarious milk carton gag!! :lol:
> 
> ~Alan


Kudos for post 8000 :grin:


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Pot, meet...
> 
> You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.


Whatever ... Your posts have not been pristine. But at least I come back to D12.

(Still no update, BTW, in the other browser window.)


----------



## P Smith

Hoosier205 said:


> Pot, meet...
> 
> You sure have been fanning the flames a lot lately. That's unfortunate. I don't see Stuart, Doug, Tom, or Sixto doing that.


 You just adding fuel into P aspects of the thread ! STOP ! :nono:


----------



## BudShark

P Smith said:


> There is no reason to withheld TLE.
> Well... perhaps just one: the D sats using military technology for rapid movements what other warheads utilize.


and there is no compelling reason to go out of your way and provide it either is there? Especially if the sat is moving - which would be par for the course for a Boeing/DirecTV satellite move based on previous birds.

The behavior we are seeing now has roots in history. The continued conjecture about something being wrong is just apparently what some people like and have been living in for the past several weeks in this thread.


----------



## James Long

LameLefty said:


> (Snipped)
> 
> Did you miss the part where I said, "Your continued inability or refusal to comprehend is no longer my concern" ?


Your concern is noted ... along with your honesty in this matter.
(If you are not concerned why do show concern by spending time on the matter?)


----------



## P Smith

BudShark said:


> and there is no compelling reason to go out of your way and provide it either is there? Especially if the sat is moving - which would be par for the course for a Boeing/DirecTV satellite move based on previous birds.
> 
> *The behavior we are seeing now has roots in history. * The continued conjecture about something being wrong is just apparently what some people like and have been living in for the past several weeks in this thread.


Could you please provide the root ? Combine together two major points - using XIPS exclusively and taking 27 degree move.

I don't see any TECHNICAL problem to provide TLE often as an object changing trajectory (I shouldn't disclose, but you forced me - check how ballistic warhead working now).


----------



## LameLefty

James Long said:


> Your concern is noted ... along with your honesty in this matter.
> (If you are not concerned why do show concern by spending time on the matter?)


Because others seem less confrontational (i.e., repeated posting of DISH-related content in a Directv thread, actions that would probably be sanctionable from most other members) and they seem more willing to recognize that nearly everything posted in this thread is, of necessity, simple generality and informed supposition. Further specificity beyond the publicly-posted TLEs is limited by business and industry practice, trade secrets, national security policy decisions, and non-disclosure agreements.

This whole thread (yes, even a lot of Post #1 and Post #2) is what the aerospace industry calls a SWAG. Those that grok that are worthy of further discussion. Those that don't and insist on being confrontational, nit-picky and intentionally obtuse and difficult are not.


----------



## Hoosier205

James Long said:


> Whatever ... Your posts have not been pristine. But at least I come back to D12.
> 
> (Still no update, BTW, in the other browser window.)


No, they certainly have not. You're absolutely right. I'm also not a moderator though. I'm just saying...I thought you were here to douse the flames, not fan them.

I guess it was just a misunderstanding on my part. You see yourself as just another poster when not conducing official moderator duties. I didn't realize that was possible. I think of you folks as more of an off-duty cop...you're still a cop. Like I said, I misunderstood. I know I am getting to discussing actions taken or not taken by moderators and that wasn't my intention. So, I'll move on from that. I just didn't expect to see you as the instigator.


----------



## syphix

Please, keep the personal attacks private.
:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:backtotop:


(which is D12, in case you're weeding through this thread unaware!)


----------



## TDK1044

Seriously, Guys, isn't the only real issue confirming that the bird is on the move and hoping that it reaches its final destination safely?


----------



## BudShark

P Smith said:


> Could you please provide the root ? Combine together two major points - using XIPS exclusively and taking 27 degree move.
> 
> I don't see any TECHNICAL problem to provide TLE often as an object changing trajectory (I shouldn't disclose, but you forced me - check how ballistic warhead working now).


What were the status of D10 and D11 TLEs during moves?
I didn't say there was a TECHNICAL problem. I stated there was no compelling reason to DO IT. They can if they want, but Boeing and DirecTV have shown a tendency to NOT do it. And considering TLEs are sourced from multiple locations - 1 of which is the Owner/Operator of the sat - we can make the assumption that the lack of TLEs for D12 are due to a lack of updates from Boeing/Directv.

Unless of course... we go down the other paths. But those are just too illogical to make sense now aren't they? Its so much easier to take the truth and facts in front of us and say: Gee, D10/D11 had gaps in TLEs during drifts, and we know D12 didn't disappear, and the Military/Public sources have no reason to "hide a TLE", so that leaves the primary source for D12s TLE was Boeing and Boeing just isn't updating them because the sat is probably moving if D10/D11 are any indication...


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> You see yourself as just another poster when not conducing official moderator duties. I didn't realize that was possible. I think of you folks as more of an off-duty cop...you're still a cop. Like I said, I misunderstood. I know I am getting to discussing actions taken or not taken by moderators and that wasn't my intention. So, I'll move on from that. I just didn't expect to see you as the instigator.


I'm only a moderator when forum rules are being broken ... but like any nice police officer I give some leeway. And in this thread a lot of leeway for several reasons.

We're not the kind of forum who hides moderators by having them use separate accounts for personal vs authority posts (I hate that arrangement - especially when you don't know who's personal posts are a moderator's). We're also not the kind of forum where moderators never participate.

I apologize if any of my posts have upset anyone. Some was part of playful banter but some people don't want to play. Other posts were trying to figure out what is going on with D12.

:backtotop

If real examples of previous XIPS moves (geostationary to geostationary) across large distances are available I'm all eyes.


----------



## Sixto

What a wild ride this thread is. 

This is very simple, and we've done this before.

This is *exactly* like D10 and D11.

When significant moves are about to occur, or have occurred, we've seen a span a days between TLE updates.

Same now with D12.

So we've been expecting a move, we see a gap between TLE's, and we wait for the next update. Same as D10/D11.

Simple as that.

All good stuff, and looking forward to tracking the Drift day-to-day.


----------



## Hdhead

BudShark said:


> What were the status of D10 and D11 TLEs during moves?
> I didn't say there was a TECHNICAL problem. I stated there was no compelling reason to DO IT. They can if they want, but Boeing and DirecTV have shown a tendency to NOT do it. And considering TLEs are sourced from multiple locations - 1 of which is the Owner/Operator of the sat - we can make the assumption that the lack of TLEs for D12 are due to a lack of updates from Boeing/Directv.
> 
> Unless of course... we go down the other paths. But those are just too illogical to make sense now aren't they? Its so much easier to take the truth and facts in front of us and say: Gee, D10/D11 had gaps in TLEs during drifts, and we know D12 didn't disappear, and the Military/Public sources have no reason to "hide a TLE", so that leaves the primary source for D12s TLE was Boeing and Boeing just isn't updating them because the sat is probably moving if D10/D11 are any indication...


I thought the TLEs were calculated and disseminated by SpaceCom and are independent of Boeing sourcing? So you are saying that the source of TLE info is Boeing? Help me out Lefty.


----------



## BudShark

Hdhead said:


> I thought the TLEs were calculated and disseminated by SpaceCom and are independent of Boeing sourcing? So you are saying that the source of TLE info is Boeing? Help me out Lefty.


http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/supplemental/


> # Introduction
> 
> In order to reduce latency and improve accuracy, CelesTrak now offers supplemental two-line element sets (TLEs) derived directly from owner/operator-supplied orbital data. Until now, all TLEs provided to the public have been derived from radar and optical observations of the US Space Surveillance Network (SSN). This process can cause problems, particularly for deep-space objects (orbital periods greater than 225 minutes) which rely on optical observations. Limited geographic distribution of these optical sites, together with unpredictable weather conditions, can result in long intervals between observations, resulting in delays in cataloging objects, old and inaccurate data, and even difficulty in recovering objects.
> 
> While this uncooperative approach to tracking space objects is required for a large portion of the current satellite catalog, many of these objects are operational payloads which are routinely tracked by their owners or operators. Some of this orbital data, such as for the GPS constellation, is publicly available via the Internet. The goal of this new service is to take that data and generate TLEs as part of the normal data update processes on CelesTrak.


So considering what we know:
D10/D11 behaved this way
SpaceCom and all others have NO reason to hide a TLE
D12 is not some top secret program worthy of hiding a TLE
CELESTRAK states they use Owner/Operator tracking when available

I'm making some assumptions/conclusions here. But... they aren't a big stretch. And regardless of whether Boeing isn't providing, or someone else is throwing them away...

We are *More than Likely* in drift as we speak.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> All good stuff, and looking forward to tracking the Drift day-to-day.


Haven't we already missed about 5 of those days?


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> Haven't we already missed about 5 of those days?


Hopefully!

I'm hoping that the move started days ago.

If not, no biggie, we'll start tracking now.

I'm happy that we have the gap in TLE's, because we learned with D10 and D11 that good things usually happen during a large time span between TLE's.


----------



## Hdhead

BudShark said:


> http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/supplemental/
> 
> So considering what we know:
> D10/D11 behaved this way
> SpaceCom and all others have NO reason to hide a TLE
> D12 is not some top secret program worthy of hiding a TLE
> CELESTRAK states they use Owner/Operator tracking when available
> 
> I'm making some assumptions/conclusions here. But... they aren't a big stretch. And regardless of whether Boeing isn't providing, or someone else is throwing them away...
> 
> We are *More than Likely* in drift as we speak.


Thank you. good stuff!


----------



## BudShark

Hdhead said:


> Haven't we already missed about 5 of those days?


I think thats the point. Its kinda like Christmas.

People are sooo wrapped up in the "I have to know, I have to see the evidence" they are missing out on the fun/joy/anticipation due to their lack of faith.

We KNOW what happened in the past. We KNOW what past behaviors were at the beginning of drifts. Based on that we KNOW D12 is in drift and that is exciting!*

*Of course, for the naysays, we don't KNOW anything about D12. But, with a very small amount of faith and a lot of evidence, we can KNOW and anticipate and be excited and put to rest all this "its broke" BS that has been around that IMO ruined the anticipation of 30 new HD channels _SOON_.


----------



## P Smith

Hdhead said:


> I thought the TLEs were calculated and disseminated by SpaceCom and are independent of Boeing sourcing? So you are saying that the source of TLE info is Boeing? Help me out Lefty.


Definitely not Boeing - NORAD is the source.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Hdhead said:


> Haven't we already missed about 5 of those days?


Perhaps...

...but then that might mean only 15 more days to go! 

~Alan


----------



## DavidMi

Alan Gordon said:


> Perhaps...
> 
> ...but then that might mean only 15 more days to go!


 We can wish. 

GO DTV12!


----------



## jerrylove56

The drama in this blog is better than D** programming.


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Perhaps...
> 
> ...but then that might mean only 15 more days to go!
> 
> ~Alan


Exactly!

Man, amazing to see all the bickering in this thread.

I've been waiting for the gap in TLE's for weeks, weeks!, and now it happens, and everyone gets ticked off.


----------



## Sixto

jerrylove56 said:


> The drama in this blog is better than D** programming.


and a waste of time.


----------



## BudShark

Sixto said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Man, amazing to see all the bickering in this thread.
> 
> I've been waiting for the gap in TLE's for weeks, weeks!, and now it happens, and everyone gets ticked off.


I think thats the funniest part. You've been saying over and over when we see a long gap its good. Then we see a short gap, people get excited and then the naysayers start again. And then somehow, somewhere, the fact that you said the first good sign would be a long gap gets lost... :lol:

Its not like this was unexpected...  IT would've been more unexpected to see a flurry of TLEs indicating the drift. THAT would have been counter to D10/D11...


----------



## mobandit

P Smith said:


> Definitely not Boeing - NORAD is the source.


NORAD is not the source...United States Strategic Command, formerly known as United States Space Command...NORAD is another entity entirely...


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> Hopefully!
> 
> I'm hoping that the move started days ago.


If it is like D11 then it may have moved 1.47 degrees ... which is still better than zero!


----------



## pfp

Sixto said:


> Hopefully!
> 
> I'm hoping that the move started days ago.
> 
> If not, no biggie, we'll start tracking now.
> 
> I'm happy that we have the gap in TLE's, because we learned with D10 and D11 that good things usually happen during a large time span between TLE's.


So the question is... for how many days did the TLE's stop with D10 and D11 before they resumed and we saw the move happening?


----------



## Sixto

pfp said:


> So the question is... for how many days did the TLE's stop with D10 and D11 before they resumed and we saw the move happening?


Had posted some of the details earlier, but it was in the range of 3-6 days. D10 was shorter, D11 was longer.

All good stuff, finally something different.


----------



## pfp

Sixto said:


> Had posted some of the details earlier, but it was in the range of 3-6 days. D10 was shorter, D11 was longer.
> 
> All good stuff, finally something different.


So based on past experience it would be reasonable to expect a TLE in the next few days showing the move started.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Man, amazing to see all the bickering in this thread.
> 
> I've been waiting for the gap in TLE's for weeks, weeks!, and now it happens, and everyone gets ticked off.


Exactly!

To quote Jim Lovell's line in Apollo 13. "Gentlemen, what are your intentions?"

My favorite professor made a point during any class discussion that we ask ourselves to make sure our contributions pass the "so what" filter before we made our comments.


----------



## Sixto

pfp said:


> So based on past experience it would be reasonable to expect a TLE in the next few days showing the move started.


From D11:


Code:


TLE#130(07-26-08 08:01) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-08 14:24) 35,778 x 35,794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-08 10:46) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-08 10:11) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-08 12:13) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Had posted some of the details earlier, but it was in the range of 3-6 days. D10 was shorter, D11 was longer.
> 
> All good stuff, finally something different.


Satelliteracer told us to expect this 8 days ago and we didn't realize it.

Wormhole.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

Sixto said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Man, amazing to see all the bickering in this thread.
> 
> I've been waiting for the gap in TLE's for weeks, weeks!, and now it happens, and everyone gets ticked off.


Here,here.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> Satelliteracer told us to expect this 8 days ago and we didn't realize it.
> 
> Wormhole.


You know, I just thought he was expressing humor, not really imparting veiled wisdom. I was PMing someone earlier that humor does not travel well in the forums. Regardless of s'Racer's intent, I agree with Lefty and Sixto that this is something we have seen before. With regards to the D12 situation different <> same and, therefor different = better where different <> disaster. I have not seen any flaming streaks of twisted metal in the sky today, so I am going to rule out disaster. Of course, that is me not being an expert and entering into the realm of let's be logical. :sure:


----------



## smiddy

Jeremy W said:


> So it's less dangerous for them to simply have no idea where D12 is?


Trust me, they know exactly where DirecTV - 12 is...I am 100% certain of that!


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> Satelliteracer told us to expect this 8 days ago and we didn't realize it.
> 
> Wormhole.


Be careful!

Some poster*s* might try and argue with you that that technology doesn't exist yet!


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> It's times like this that I really wonder why I bother. :nono:


The love of the game? You have an altruistic streak that needs to be fulfilled? Glutton for punishment? :lol: Hey, for all the poop you handle, there is a 99% of us who highly appreciate your inputs. Please don't allow it to get you down man, if you quit, I would be very sad man! :sure:


----------



## jacmyoung

Did I mention that this sounds a lot like the rabbit and turtle race? Of course who wins the race is not so important, no one has the illusion that the turtle is faster than the rabbit, the point is, who is the smarter one?

The rabbit is bouncing in and out bragging, but the turtle is no where to be seen


----------



## cebbigh

smiddy said:


> The love of the game? You have an altruistic streak that needs to be fulfilled? Glutton for punishment? :lol: Hey, for all the poop you handle, there is a 99% of us who highly appreciate your inputs. Please don't allow it to get you down man, if you quit, I would be very sad man! :sure:


:up:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

I know several people within this fine community have contacts within DIRECTV. Why not just ask, “is it drifting yet”? What is the downfall of relinquishing that tidbit of information? I know DIRECTV doesn’t “owe us anything”. Why would a drift be secretive? :shrug: Peace!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hutchinshouse said:


> I know several people within this fine community have contacts within DIRECTV. Why not just ask, "is it drifting yet"? What is the downfall of relinquishing that tidbit of information? I know DIRECTV doesn't "owe us anything". Why would a drift be secretive? :shrug: Peace!


I've asked, and I've been told D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.


----------



## Sixto

There is one further STA we may see. The Earth Station to D12 during Drift STA expires 5/7. D12 is good to 5/26.


----------



## tonyd79

James Long said:


> BTW: Unless you're breaking a rule of the forum I'm just another poster here.


I am not going to get into the TLE Battle but want to comment on this.

I appreciate this statement very much and it is one of the reasons I like this place. I have had opinion and technical arguments (even philosophical ones) with mods on this forum over the years and have always been treated with respect and without heavy handedness. I cannot say the same for other forums I have frequented (and pretty much abandoned). It is very good that posters like yourself can separate their moderator role from their poster activities.

Even better in that you come from the "other side" of the forum.


----------



## rey_1178

pfp said:


>


point that my way too if possible


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I've asked, and I've been told D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.


Consistent, concise...and all we need to know.


----------



## georule

Geez guys, get all the panicking and conspiracy theories out of your system before Thurs at 2pm ET. Last Call! Laaaaaast Call! Tin Foil hats are 90% off starting Thursday afternoon --ALL MUST GO!


----------



## Sixto

Thursday may be a non-event.

D12 in Q2 has been stated a zillion times.


----------



## thelucky1

Stuart Sweet said:


> I've asked, and I've been told D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Consistent, concise...and all we need to know.


Exactly! Just like child birth you know its coming, just not the exact date!


----------



## Piratefan98

I don't know anything about rocket science, telemetries, or even the FCC application process, but I know this ..... the problems of D12 are likely connected to the coming end of the world in December, 2012. Those Mayans are never wrong. And really, D(December) 12(2012). It's so obvious.

http://www.2012endofdays.org/

Hopefully we'll get at least 2 years of extra HD before we're all vaporized.

Optimistic Jeff


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Piratefan98 said:


> I don't know anything about rocket science, telemetries, or even the FCC application process, but I know this ..... the problems of D12 are likely connected to the coming end of the world in December, 2012. Those Mayans are never wrong. And really, D(December) 12(2012). It's so obvious.
> 
> http://www.2012endofdays.org/
> 
> Hopefully we'll get at least 2 years of extra HD before we're all vaporized.
> 
> Optimistic Jeff


Or, once D12 is in position, the world ends. :eek2:

Mike


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Piratefan98 said:


> I don't know anything about rocket science, telemetries, or even the FCC application process, but I know this ..... the problems of D12 are likely connected to the coming end of the world in December, 2012. Those Mayans are never wrong. And really, D(December) 12(2012). It's so obvious.
> 
> http://www.2012endofdays.org/
> 
> Hopefully we'll get at least 2 years of extra HD before we're all vaporized.
> 
> Optimistic Jeff


At least the Mayans gave a hard date. 12/21/2012 is much better than: "Doomsday is fine and will be on service as planned". :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah, that's it. The Mayans were annoyed that satellite TV wouldn't be invented for another 3,000 years and did all this to us. Right.


----------



## Groundhog45

Piratefan98 said:


> I don't know anything about rocket science, telemetries, or even the FCC application process, but I know this ..... the problems of D12 are likely connected to the coming end of the world in December, 2012. Those Mayans are never wrong. And really, D(December) 12(2012). It's so obvious.
> 
> http://www.2012endofdays.org/
> 
> Hopefully we'll get at least 2 years of extra HD before we're all vaporized.
> 
> Optimistic Jeff


Seems reasonable. :lol:

Thanks *Sixto* for keeping your patience and keeping us up to date through all of this.


----------



## dcowboy7

If the mayans were so smart how come they arent around anymore ?


----------



## flexoffset

My only interest in the whole D12 bit is whether this thread will hit 1 million views before D12 goes live.


----------



## Carl Spock

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yeah, that's it. The Mayans were annoyed that satellite TV wouldn't be invented for another 3,000 years and did all this to us. Right.


Stuart, the Mayans knew because the ancient astronauts told them. And the greys informed the ancient astronauts.

What isn't crystal clear about that?


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Thursday may be a non-event.
> 
> D12 in Q2 has been stated a zillion times.


And now it is Q2. At the very least they will confirm that guidance, which they couldn't do if they knew of any significant issue with the bird.

I would be willing to bet a Genuine Internet Bazegabuck* they'll go further than that tho.

*Actual cash value of Genuine Internet Bazegabuck is $.00001 if presented in person at our home office in Astana, Kazakhstan, during our regular office hours, which are 1:00pm to 1:10pm, every April 1st ocurring in a leap year.


----------



## Taltizer

Piratefan98 said:


> I don't know anything about rocket science, telemetries, or even the FCC application process, but I know this ..... the problems of D12 are likely connected to the coming end of the world in December, 2012. Those Mayans are never wrong. And really, D(December) 12(2012). It's so obvious.
> 
> http://www.2012endofdays.org/
> 
> Hopefully we'll get at least 2 years of extra HD before we're all vaporized.
> 
> Optimistic Jeff


December 21, 2012 at 11:11 am universal time


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Taltizer said:


> December 21, 2012 at 11:11 am universal time


That sucks! That's during my lunch hour.


----------



## wmb

Hutchinshouse said:


> That sucks! That's during my lunch hour.


11:11 AM UTC is 6:11 AM EST. The Friday before Christmas. And some people think Mondays are bad!!!


----------



## jacmyoung

dcowboy7 said:


> If the mayans were so smart how come they arent around anymore ?


Maybe they did not want to stick around to be vaporized, and moved on to a better place. Too bad we are stuck.



Hutchinshouse said:


> That sucks! That's during my lunch hour.


Consider yourself lucky. It is my nap time. Won't even get to experience the once in an "Earth Time" event.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

dcowboy7 said:


> If the mayans were so smart how come they arent around anymore ?


How can they of missed the weather that killed them off?

Any ways other have said dates like 2000 / 2001

2019, 2038 are also ones.

and Don't forget about the big question with if we stated on 0000 or 0001 and even them there may be 5 years lag time as well.


----------



## Tom Robertson

While the Mayan calendar is a very interesting one, there are actually more than the one reference in Mayan sites. Only one of the calendars was not continued past 12/21/2112, the others go millennium beyond 2112. 

It also makes for a good movie story--even if the execution isn't so great.

Anyway, let's drop that sidebar and go :backtotop.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

We have Liftoff!

New TLE:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-04-2010 04:32:39
Orbit # at Epoch	134
Inclination		0.085
RA of A. Node		60.602
Eccentricity		0.0013857
Argument of Perigee	253.640
Revs per day		0.99591243
Period			24h 05m 54s (1445.90 min)
Semi-major axis		42 357 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 920 x 36 037 km
Element number / age	171 / 0 day(s)

Lon			87.7679° W
Lat			0.0352° N
Alt (km)		35 999.660

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°
169 04-28 09:50 35,776 x 35,797     21 + 7.49H 120.39D  76.03°W  0.05°S  0.09°
168 04-28 02:20 35,779 x 35,795     16 +19.15H 120.08D  76.01°W  0.05°N  0.08°
167 04-27 07:12 35,778 x 35,795     17 + 1.98H 119.28D  75.99°W  0.01°S  0.08°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## T-Hefner

Sixto said:


> New TLE on the WAY! Updating!


Niceeeeeeeeee....


----------



## tc3400

It's on the way>>>>>>>>>


----------



## Sixto

It's drifting baby!


----------



## LameLefty

Excellent! Check out that orbital period - almost 10 minutes longer than a sidereal day. Drift underway! :up:


----------



## T-Hefner

Sixto said:


> It's drifting baby!


Wooooo...Yeah, Its already at 87 ....

Nice call Sixto on the brake in TLE's ..... You were right...Good things were in the making!!!

Time to jump on the HD train!!!


----------



## George_T

*Drifting, Drifting, Drifting* the night away!!!


----------



## slimoli

How many days from 87 to 103 ?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

slimoli said:


> How many days from 87 to 103 ?


Let's see... roughly 5 days from 76 to 87 (11 degrees) and 16 degrees to go... I'd say another week, which would fit exactly into Sixto's "two week" drift time prediction.


----------



## matt

I ought to take a mid-day nap more often! What a pleasant surprise on an otherwise crap day.


----------



## spear61

Smoking along at about 2.5 degrees per day. They are not messing around in the slow lane.


----------



## DJSix

What a great day, Saving Private Ryan on Blu-Ray, and we're drifting! Won't be long now!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

So, with D12 and E14 both drifting to position... it's a race to see who gets on service first!

(I have my bets on D12 since at last report, E14 has further to drift)


----------



## georule

Yippee!!

Is my math fubared, or am I really getting about 11 days to make the trip based on degrees moved divided by hours since last TLE. . . . then divide total degrees to move by the the result of step 1?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I guess this is the part where i get to say to Chicken Little....*I told you so*...


----------



## Maleman

*sigh* finally concrete good news....goooooo D12 Gooooo!


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess this is the part where i get to say to Chicken Little....*I told you so*...


You can only say that to the worst Chicken Littles who proclaimed D12 to be space junk. Pretty much nobody actually thought that would be the case.


----------



## I WANT MORE

How will our dishes keep a lock on it if it is drifting?


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> How will our dishes keep a lock on it if it is drifting?


You haven't upgraded to the Slimline 6 motorized dish with 16 channel SWM? What's wrong with you?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I WANT MORE said:


> How will our dishes keep a lock on it if it is drifting?


You won't...until its parked at 103 - catch my drift.


----------



## Sixto

According to Orbitron, with current TLE data, will reach 103° on 5/10/2010.

Then it needs to get back to Geostationary, thus much more tuning of the orbit, over several days, but it's moving quickly.


----------



## jacmyoung

If the story pans out like it meant to be, the rabbit won't notice the turtle until it is too late

Can we ask the rabbit does not jump in? Otherwise the ending will be illogical


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> You haven't upgraded to the Slimline 6 motorized dish with 16 channel SWM? What's wrong with you?


I have a 16 channel multi switch but no motor on my dish. I know, I'll have my wife periodically go up and adjust it. :hurah:


----------



## Doug Brott

I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> I have a 16 channel multi switch but no motor on my dish. I know, I'll have my wife periodically go up and adjust it. :hurah:


At 2.5 degrees per day, she'll be out there quite a bit. Which may not be a bad thing for you. :lol:


----------



## thelucky1

Sixto said:


> It's drifting baby!


*Hey, hey, hey, yeah*
Give me the beat boys and free my soul
I wanna get lost in your rock n roll
*And drift away*


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


...it will be on service as planned...


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


Never, because DirecTV and Boeing have lost control of the satellite and it's just flying through space to meet it's lover Galaxy 15.


----------



## cheesedjdj

I say 5/20 at 2:45 pm


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> Never, because DirecTV and Boeing have lost control of the satellite and it's just flying through space to meet it's lover Galaxy 15.


Nah, G15 was just another turtle there to fool the rabbit. The plan seemed to work. Ah, the moral of the story!


----------



## oldfantom

Well if there was ever any more clearly presented evidence of a fatal error in a project.....


I think this bodes well for a festivus in week four of May. I am off the week of the 17th with nothing planned, so nothing will happen that week.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> Never, because DirecTV and Boeing have lost control of the satellite and it's just flying through space to meet it's lover Galaxy 15.


It's SpaceWay-1 all over again, AAGH!!!  

Wow... grab a bit to eat, come back, and my signature becomes obsolete. 

~Alan


----------



## kevinwmsn

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


I'm picking/hoping Weds May 19 at the normal time. I'm assuming it gets to 103 on 5/10 then a few days to get it GSO, then a few more days testing/tweaking.


----------



## Alan Gordon

kevinwmsn said:


> I'm picking/hoping Weds May 19 at the normal time. I'm assuming it gets to 103 on 5/10 then a few days to get it GSO, then a few more days testing/tweaking.


I'm going to ditto the above!

~Alan


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Tom Robertson said:


> While the Mayan calendar is a very interesting one, there are actually more than the one reference in Mayan sites. Only one of the calendars was not continued past 12/21/2112, the others go millennium beyond 2112.


stopping on 12/21 2112 seems like a cool number show off.

Any ways If the cubs win in 2012 then...?


----------



## TonySCV

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be *on service*


God love you. :lol:


----------



## makaiguy

Hot damn. Now maybe the nay-sayers will put a sock in it.

Not a chance ....


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Is Sixto gonna update the thread title every time it hits 87.81. 87.82 87.83 etc?


----------



## jacmyoung

Alan Gordon said:


> ...Wow... grab a bit to eat, come back, and my signature becomes obsolete.
> 
> ~Alan


Well you can always add that the new MPEG4 DirecTiVo was released a week ago, they just have not reported it on a public TLE yet


----------



## davemayo

It should go live on 5/21. My 40th bday!


----------



## sigma1914

It's not really drifting because they are making it go. It's gone off on it's own and will miss 103.



Signed,

The Chicken Little Clan


----------



## ARKDTVfan

JoeTheDragon said:


> Any ways If the cubs win in 2012 then...?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_the_world

:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

davemayo said:


> It should go live on 5/21. My 40th bday!


5/15 is my Birthday and I'm hopin' it arrives then....not likely but hey. :grin:

Mike


----------



## brett_the_bomb

woot


----------



## T-Hefner

I'll say anywhere from 5/17 to 5/20 ... but if I had to lock in on one day it be 5/20... d12 lites up, we get our HD...and then we are all back for the D13orD14 launch when/if and we do this all over again...LOL =)


----------



## Jeremy W

sigma1914 said:


> It's not really drifting because they are making it go. It's gone off on it's own and will miss 103.
> 
> Signed,
> 
> The Chicken Little Clan


I already posted this news.


----------



## Sixto

BTW, the "new" TLE was from 12:30am ET, so it's stale already. 

D12 may already be at 89.6°.


----------



## Hoosier205

I'm quickly running out of crow for the naysayers.


----------



## shaun-ohio

give me the beat, that frees my soul, i wanna get lost in rock and roll, and drift away


----------



## jsg

Now I may have this all wrong, but it seems to me that if they continue to use the XIPS thruster it will take as long to lower its orbit as it took to raise it. That would mean that there will be another blackout within a day more or less (starting when it gets to about 13 (very approximately) degrees of 103--real soon now). That might mean another five day or more blackout in TLE's.(It might take more time to park this thing than it took to drive away.) It's at 89.5 degrees now if the pyephem package I'm using is correct.

Am I starting to get the right idea?


----------



## alnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> While the Mayan calendar is a very interesting one, there are actually more than the one reference in Mayan sites. Only one of the calendars was not continued past 12/21/2112, the others go millennium beyond 2112.
> 
> It also makes for a good movie story--even if the execution isn't so great.
> 
> Anyway, let's drop that sidebar and go :backtotop.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


My calendar ends on 12/31/2010. Then I go get another one.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> BTW, the "new" TLE was from 12:30am ET, so it's stale already.
> 
> D12 may already be at 89.6°.


Almost exactly halfway home already. That thing is truckin.


----------



## PhilS

Hdhead said:


> Almost exactly halfway home already. That thing is truckin.


Notice that D12 is drifting a minimum of 136 km above geosynchronous orbit, well clear of other satellites.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Wawaweeya! I am very excite! - Borat


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You won't...until its parked at 103 - catch my drift.


Now that's Punny right there! :lol:


----------



## smiddy

MicroBeta said:


> 5/15 is my Birthday and I'm hopin' it arrives then....not likely but hey. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Happy Birthday my friend!


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> BTW, the "new" TLE was from 12:30am ET, so it's stale already.
> 
> D12 may already be at 89.6°.


Give me speed big D, speed!


----------



## sigma1914

Jeremy W said:


> I already posted this news.












Sorry forum master.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jsg said:


> Now I may have this all wrong, but it seems to me that if they continue to use the XIPS thruster it will take as long to lower its orbit as it took to raise it. That would mean that there will be another blackout within a day more or less (starting when it gets to about 13 (very approximately) degrees of 103--real soon now). That might mean another five day or more blackout in TLE's.(It might take more time to park this thing than it took to drive away.) It's at 89.5 degrees now if the pyephem package I'm using is correct.
> 
> Am I starting to get the right idea?


Sorta, but I think you've crossed a few thoughts together. 

The Xips is fired once (or twice) to shift the orbit into drift mode. You are right, roughly an equal amount of thrust is is used to stop the drive and return to the correct orbit.

We normally get TLEs throughout the movement process. I don't know why we didn't as the drift started. Perhaps NORAD didn't bother publishing them during rapid change? Though we have seen several TLEs in a short time before, so I'm not certain.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BudShark

Ok... about all this thread is missing now is someone to rush the field and Doug/Stuart tasering them...

Any volunteers? If not I have a few suggestions... 

I am glad to see it moving, and moving quickly... it does seem that D12 will be on service as planned in that early to mid-May timeframe.


----------



## smiddy

BudShark said:


> Ok... about all this thread is missing now is someone to rush the field and Doug/Stuart tasering them...
> 
> Any volunteers? If not I have a few suggestions...
> 
> I am glad to see it moving, and moving quickly... it does seem that D12 will be on service as planned in that early to mid-May timeframe.


Did you watch the guy who walked onto the field in Philidelphia?


----------



## BudShark

smiddy said:


> Did you watch the guy who walked onto the field in Philidelphia?


You don't think I have original ideas do you?!?!?! 

!rolling Heh... Did ya hear? D12 is fine and will be on service as planned!


----------



## SteveHas

One day I would love to hear the behind the scene story as to what (if anything) caused the apparent delay.
For now, I'm just happy D12 is ok as promised by so many here.


----------



## jdspencer

Just curious as to how real time is the Real Time Satellite Tracking site?
http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


----------



## Scott Kocourek

So it's not lost?


----------



## Sixto

jdspencer said:


> Just curious as to how real time is the Real Time Satellite Tracking site?
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


The n2yo site takes a TLE and extrapolates the satellite location, similar to most satellite software like Orbitron. And it doesn't always use the latest TLE.


----------



## Inches

WOW!! I just got back from a weeks vacation and checked and there was no movement 

Just got home from an evening out and there is *MOVEMENT* :hurah:

Great News!!


----------



## jsg

jdspencer said:


> Just curious as to how real time is the Real Time Satellite Tracking site?
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131


It's probably as fresh (or stale) as the TLE they are using. They are now using 171 but were using the very old TLE 170 when I first heard about the new TLE here. Their prediction matches pyephem now and pyephem matched the location Sixto mentioned an hour or so ago. If you go to http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=36131 and go to the bottom of the page you will see the TLE the site currently has.


----------



## hidefman

I think you guys may be a bit optimistic. As deliberate as DirecTV and Boeing have been with D12, my guess on coming on line, seeing transponder signals and seeing the first channels light up is Wednesday, May 26..... and I would love to be wrong!


----------



## pfp

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


Define "on service".


----------



## BudShark

pfp said:


> Define "on service".


On Service...

That which is in a state of service...


----------



## pfp

kevinwmsn said:


> I'm picking/hoping Weds May 19 at the normal time. I'm assuming it gets to 103 on 5/10 then a few days to get it GSO, then a few more days testing/tweaking.


I'll go with the 26th


----------



## TBlazer07

Inches said:


> WOW!! I just got back from a weeks vacation and checked and there was no movement
> 
> Just got home from an evening out and there is *MOVEMENT* :hurah:
> 
> Great News!!


Take lots of fiber ...... vacations are always tough on your system.


----------



## jsg

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorta, but I think you've crossed a few thoughts together.
> 
> The Xips is fired once (or twice) to shift the orbit into drift mode. You are right, roughly an equal amount of thrust is is used to stop the drive and return to the correct orbit.
> 
> We normally get TLEs throughout the movement process. I don't know why we didn't as the drift started. Perhaps NORAD didn't bother publishing them during rapid change? Though we have seen several TLEs in a short time before, so I'm not certain.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK. Thanks, Tom. I guess if we are still seeing fresh TLEs on Saturday and Sunday we'll know they are waiting to get close to 103 before making those adjustments.


----------



## Groundhog45

WooHoo!!! Keep on Truckin', D12.


----------



## pfp

BudShark said:


> On Service...
> 
> That which is in a state of service...


Is a DirecTV logo transmitted from D12 considered "on service"


----------



## BudShark

pfp said:


> Is a DirecTV logo transmitted from D12 considered "on service"


Ahhh... a gambling man who seeks the rules of the game...  I'll let Doug answer.


----------



## Davenlr

Ill consider getting a signal meter reading as "On Service". When I can tune in a new channel, Ill consider it "In Service"


----------



## hidefman

Sixto said:


> The n2yo site takes a TLE and extrapolates the satellite location, similar to most satellite software like Orbitron. And it doesn't always use the latest TLE.


Wow, this site already has D12 at 89.82 degrees. They're usually not that fast. I guess some days are diamond, some days are gold..... or D Day!:lol:

I still say May 26th on seeing the first D12 channels.... and I hope I am wrong!


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

I want $100,000,000,000,000,000,000 million dollars or I will destroy your satellite!


----------



## Sixto

hidefman said:


> Wow, this site already has D12 at 89.82 degrees. They're usually not that fast. I guess some days are diamond, some days are gold..... or D Day!:lol:
> 
> I still say May 26th on seeing the first D12 channels.... and I hope I am wrong!


Yes, roughly 2.5° per day.


----------



## syphix

When will D12 get a headline on the front page of the forum??


----------



## Sixto

We'll see 103 (ca) signal during the week of 5/17, if not sooner.


----------



## Doug Brott

pfp said:


> Define "on service".


Let's say active channels .. This could include test channels like 480/481 when D10/11 came online.


----------



## BudShark

Sixto said:


> We'll see 103 (ca) signal during the week of 5/17, if not sooner.


I vote sooner...


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> We'll see 103 (ca) signal during the week of 5/17, if not sooner.


Awesome


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> When will D12 get a headline on the front page of the forum??


+1 please.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Wow! I leave to watch the Penguins and have me a steak sammich and a few Yuenglings, and now this. All is right with my world! Kinda feel sorry for the Chicken Little's though


----------



## Groundhog45

Sixto said:


> We'll see 103 (ca) signal during the week of 5/17, if not sooner.


Darn, on vacation until the 19th or 20th. But celebration when I get home.


----------



## dpeters11

LameLefty said:


> +1 please.


Agreed. The Dish guys get one for E14.


----------



## ATARI

So has it been drifting for 5 days now?

Started Friday, possibly?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Inches said:


> WOW!! I just got back from a weeks vacation and checked and there was no movement
> 
> Just got home from an evening out and there is *MOVEMENT* :hurah:
> 
> Great News!!





TBlazer07 said:


> Take lots of fiber ...... vacations are always tough on your system.


CRAP! Somebody beat me to it...



Sixto said:


> We'll see 103 (ca) signal during the week of 5/17, if not sooner.


Sounds like a great week to fine tune the old dish... 

~Alan


----------



## FHSPSU67

And front page it is!
All hail D12)


----------



## P Smith

Somebody pedaled a few times a speculation (should I say WAG ?) about speed versus lifetime in regards of E14; well ... tell me now about D12 xenon usage and speed of drifting.


----------



## jacmyoung

PhilS said:


> Notice that D12 is drifting a minimum of 136 km above geosynchronous orbit, well clear of other satellites.


Wait, you mean D12 is running in that "graveyard"?


----------



## Wisegoat

New channels will start on Wednesday, May 26, because I will be at the river for 10 days with an HDTV and a 18" SD dish. Oh well, at least I will have TV and be heavily hydrated whilst sitting my butt in the river. No cell phones, no internet, DirecTV and a trailer and lots of booze. And something to look forward to when I return.


----------



## saxon2000

SteveHas said:


> One day I would love to hear the behind the scene story as to what (if anything) caused the apparent delay.
> For now, I'm just happy D12 is ok as promised by so many here.


The delay was my fault.

I was a little late with my monthly payment, and DTV couldn't afford to pay for the drift.

Sorry guys!


----------



## VeniceDre

VeniceDre said:


> D12 is moving and has been on the move for a couple of days now....
> 
> Fact or good old fashioned guess? You be the judge.


----------



## Lord Vader

Inches said:


> WOW!! I just got back from a weeks vacation and checked and there was no movement
> 
> Just got home from an evening out and there is *MOVEMENT* :hurah:
> 
> Great News!!


They make something for that, you know. Check out the dept. that handles constipation.


----------



## Lord Vader

Hoosier205 said:


> _ For all we know it could already be moving.
> D12 may already be moving._





Lord Vader on 4-20-10 said:


> It isn't now, but it should be within the next 7 to 10 days.


Just as I predicted. It began drifting right smack within this very time period.


----------



## dclarke

over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Yes!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Nighthawk68

Excellent news!!!! Can't wait!!!


----------



## jacmyoung

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Sir you are correct in part and wrong in part. Yes all the cable channels are mundane, and yes that is precisely why there are over 330 pages of mindless dribble online instead of TV time.

The fact that you were correct to begin with but ended up being wrong anyway, made you less than not that bright


----------



## saxon2000

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


...and just to think, You were part of it!

Congrats fellow member!


----------



## smiddy

Hey, it is Cinco de Mayo somewhere, right?  Happy Cinco de Mayo!


----------



## Ed Campbell

Thanks from a cranky old geek to the folks who managed to stay on course, who led the way, who provided appropriate and useful information.


----------



## smiddy

Ed Campbell said:


> Thanks from a cranky old geek to the folks who managed to stay on course, who led the way, who provided appropriate and useful information.


Hey Ed, one more post buddy! You can do it!


----------



## saxon2000

smiddy said:


> Hey Ed, one more post buddy! You can do it!


Ed, Ed, Ed, Ed!

Post again Ed!


----------



## HerntDawg

Ed Campbell said:


> Thanks from a cranky old geek to the folks who managed to stay on course, who led the way, who provided appropriate and useful information.


-1 old +1 everything else


----------



## Satelliteracer

Doug Brott said:


> I can confirm that D12 is in fact drifting .. now all we need are bets as to when it will be on service


Can I play?


----------



## Sackchamp56

Satelliteracer said:


> Can I play?


I'm going to double down on your bet!


----------



## Tom Servo

I'll predict test channels on the 19th, a few gifts on the 26th and a bigger roll out on June 2nd.


----------



## dclarke

jacmyoung said:


> Sir you are correct in part and wrong in part. Yes all the cable channels are mundane, and yes that is precisely why there are over 330 pages of mindless dribble online instead of TV time.
> 
> The fact that you were correct to begin with but ended up being wrong anyway, made you less than not that bright


yep, and amen to that. the fact that you, yourself have over 5000 posts regarding sat tv in general further reinforces my point about the ilk that contribute to 8000+ posts on the movement of an outer space object, ...... man i gotta get a life


----------



## spartanstew

I just love it when back to back posts tie together unintentionally.



dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????





Hutchinshouse said:


> Yes!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Avder

Sixto said:


> It's drifting baby!


*FINALLY!!!!! *Explodes**


----------



## P Smith

Kids ? Bed time.


----------



## -Draino-

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


I have to agree. I just don't see what all the hype is all about. Of the new HD channels, I'll watch maybe 2 of them.


----------



## texasmoose




----------



## Mike Bertelson

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Interesting. :scratchin

This is a thread about DirecTV-12, where it is and where it's going. It pretty much followed that subject even if a few members sparred a little more than they should have.

It's just a bunch of people discussing something...that's not so bad. Some threads are not for everyone, and there are certain ones I stay out of if it's not my cup of tea. It's certainly not place to tell people what threads they can start and what they can discuss...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## reweiss

dclarke said:


> yep, and amen to that. the fact that you, yourself have over 5000 posts regarding sat tv in general further reinforces my point about the ilk that contribute to 8000+ posts on the movement of an outer space object, ...... man i gotta get a life


Perhaps a thread about gerbil and hamster racing would be more to your liking. Go find a thread that interests you. This thread is for people interested in Satellites and TV.


----------



## dpeters11

-Draino- said:


> I have to agree. I just don't see what all the hype is all about. Of the new HD channels, I'll watch maybe 2 of them.


Some are pretty excited about some of the channels announced, like Travel. Some are also excited about what might be coming next since we know this isn't the final list.


----------



## SteveHas

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Then why are you here?


----------



## mcbeevee

My prediction is new HD channels from D12 will start on 5/19 at 6am.


----------



## afulkerson

At the speed that the current TLE shows it going D12 will be at 103 in 5 days. I am sure that it will take some time to slow back down and park. :joy::goodjob::balloons::icon_band


----------



## smiddy

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


 Here's a thought though, lets say we walk into a business meeting, any business meeting, we don't know what is going on, we hear a person talking, we decide we don't like it, or care, we choose to leave, it wasn't for us. Or, we put a huge stinky peice of excrement on the table, then leave. Which one do you suppose is the more mature one to do? 

I am excited about what is coming. I suspect DirecTV is not ALL about just the few additions of HD, there is likely more in store, since the payload on this beasty can/could provide so much more. The possibilities are endless, that is what is kewl! :hurah:


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> At 2.5 degrees per day, she'll be out there quite a bit. Which may not be a bad thing for you. :lol:


Could someone please tell me where it is now? She would like to come in and get ready for work.


----------



## tcusta00

smiddy said:


> Here's a thought though, lets say we walk into a business meeting, any business meeting, we don't know what is going on, we hear a person talking, we decide we don't like it, or care, we choose to leave, it wasn't for us. Or, we put a huge stinky peice of excrement on the table, then leave. Which one do you suppose is the more mature one to do?
> 
> I am excited about what is coming. I suspect DirecTV is not ALL about just the few additions of HD, there is likely more in store, since the payload on this beasty can/could provide so much more. The possibilities are endless, that is what is kewl! :hurah:


Smiddy for president!! That was perfect. :lol:


----------



## afulkerson

I WANT MORE said:


> Could someone please tell me where it is now? She would like to come in and get ready for work.


Lon 90.821 and moving..... . 

oops 90.822 and still moving....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smiddy said:


> Here's a thought though, lets say we walk into a business meeting, any business meeting, we don't know what is going on, we hear a person talking, we decide we don't like it, or care, we choose to leave, it wasn't for us. Or, we put a huge stinky peice of excrement on the table, then leave. Which one do you suppose is the more mature one to do?
> 
> I am excited about what is coming. I suspect DirecTV is not ALL about just the few additions of HD, there is likely more in store, since the payload on this beasty can/could provide so much more. The possibilities are endless, that is what is kewl! :hurah:


You are one wise Ogre. 

Mike


----------



## mechman

P Smith said:


> Kids ? Bed time.


Back under the bridge with you then... :lol:


----------



## Hdhead

smiddy said:


> Here's a thought though, lets say we walk into a business meeting, any business meeting, we don't know what is going on, we hear a person talking, we decide we don't like it, or care, we choose to leave, it wasn't for us. Or, we put a huge stinky peice of excrement on the table, then leave. Which one do you suppose is the more mature one to do?
> 
> I am excited about what is coming. I suspect DirecTV is not ALL about just the few additions of HD, there is likely more in store, since the payload on this beasty can/could provide so much more. The possibilities are endless, that is what is kewl! :hurah:


What he said.


----------



## ivoaraujo

I believe new HD on 5/26 at 6:00 est., but hoping earlier.


----------



## tonyd79

Satelliteracer said:


> Can I play?


Yes, please. Type your entry into the pool in the reply box below!


----------



## HarleyD

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Maybe you're not.

For starters you don't know the difference between 'dribble' and 'drivel'.


----------



## studlygoorite

Good thing this wasn't D12.

http://news.discovery.com/space/zombiesat-attack-solar-storm-fries-satellites-brain.html


----------



## Sixto

For those questioning the significance of D12 ...

Today, there are 28 Ka transponders for national HD between D10/D11.

With D12, there will be 44, a 57% increase.

Along with the HD LiL capacity increases.

This is not a short term 2010 item, a 57% HD increase is very significant in the long term, with many useful possibilities over time.


----------



## TDK1044

Sixto said:


> For those questioning the significance of D12 ...
> 
> Today, there are 28 Ka transponders for national HD between D10/D11.
> 
> With D12, there will be 44, a 57% increase.
> 
> Along with the HD LiL capacity increases.
> 
> This is not a short term 2010 item, a 57% HD increase is very significant in the long term, with many useful possibilities over time.


Excellent. I may eventually get FSC in HD. :lol:


----------



## wmb

Just to be clear...

Dribble - what you do with a basketball

Drivel - the contents of this thread


----------



## Stewpidity

Satelliteracer said:


> Can I play?


yes you can, What is your guess ?

:lol:


----------



## Sixto

An extreme optimist would expect D12 to arrive early next week, and 103 (ca) signals to possibly show on the transponder screens late next week.

To play it safe, signal during the week of 5/17.

"live" would be afterwards, most likely on a Wednesday, but we have seen other days for channel launches.


----------



## smiddy

wmb said:


> Just to be clear...
> 
> Dribble - what you do with a basketball
> 
> Drivel - the contents of this thread


Dremel - then there ARE tools! :lol:


----------



## DavidMi

Excellent news! I am excited now!

So let me be the first to ask... when does the next satellite get launched?


----------



## Sixto

DavidMi said:


> Excellent news! I am excited now!
> 
> So let me be the first to ask... when does the next satellite get launched?


Years from now.

There are no known build contracts yet signed that we're aware of.

There are recently approved licenses for BSS (RB-x) satellites.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> An extreme optimist would expect D12 to arrive early next week, and 103 (ca) signals to possibly show on the transponder screens late next week.
> 
> To play it safe, signal during the week of 5/17.
> 
> "live" would be afterwards, most likely on a Wednesday, but we have seen other days for channel launches.


I would expect mid-week arrival... 11 or 12 days of drift. Once there, signals will show up quickly, probably Friday.


----------



## wmb

smiddy said:


> Dremel - then there ARE tools! :lol:


Hey, I resemble that remark!:lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Nice to see that this thread has started to drift in the right direction too


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Nice to see that this thread has started to drift in the right direction too


:lol: Good one - I catch your drift. 

D12 seems to be approaching 91 already...movin on....


----------



## ATARI

Three more weeks until more HD channels -- I can handle that.

Everything is fine and D12 will be on service as planned!!


----------



## jsg

Just for fun, here are predictions from pyephem for both moving satellites. It produces output in degrees, minutes, and seconds.



Code:


=== NO WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND. EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
=== Only meant to feed curiosity, and it might not even do that
=== This is just a toy. Assume all output is wrong
DIRECTV 12 My location is -83.6505 41.375
DIRECTV 12 Element Number 171 Element Epoch 2010/5/4 04:32:39
DIRECTV 12 Current Viewing Azimuth 190:54:11.3 Elevation 41:36:21.6
DIRECTV 12 Longitude now and in 20 days -90:54:40.8 -139:59:39.0 ***
DIRECTV 12 Latitude now and later -0:04:16.6 -0:06:47.0
DIRECTV 12 Elevation from earth in meters 35921864.0 Deviation 135864.0
DIRECTV 12 Current time UTC 2010/5/5 13:09:45 - in 20 days 2010/5/25 13:09:45
DIRECTV 12 Longitude now and for the next 20 days 
DIRECTV 12 [-90:54:40.8, -93:22:08.5, -95:49:40.0, -98:17:13.9, -100:44:49.0, -103:12:23.7, -105:39:56.6, -108:07:26.3, -110:34:51.7, -113:02:12.2, -115:29:27.8, -117:56:39.2, -120:23:47.3, -122:50:53.3, -125:17:58.2, -127:45:02.3, -130:12:05.1, -132:39:05.5, -135:06:02.0, -137:32:53.5, -139:59:39.0]
ECHOSTAR 14 My location is -83.6505 41.375
ECHOSTAR 14 Element Number 73 Element Epoch 2010/5/5 05:18:01
ECHOSTAR 14 Current Viewing Azimuth 241:21:46.1 Elevation 20:29:03.4
ECHOSTAR 14 Longitude now and in 20 days -134:02:31.7 -108:40:52.9 ***
ECHOSTAR 14 Latitude now and later 0:00:56.1 -0:02:24.9
ECHOSTAR 14 Elevation from earth in meters 35686980.0 Deviation -99020.0
ECHOSTAR 14 Current time UTC 2010/5/5 13:09:45 - in 20 days 2010/5/25 13:09:45
ECHOSTAR 14 Longitude now and for the next 20 days 
ECHOSTAR 14 [-134:02:31.7, -132:47:06.3, -131:31:38.2, -130:16:06.9, -129:00:31.5, -127:44:51.2, -126:29:05.1, -125:13:12.6, -123:57:12.9, -122:41:06.2, -121:24:52.9, -120:08:34.2, -118:52:11.8, -117:35:47.4, -116:19:22.5, -115:02:58.1, -113:46:34.3, -112:30:10.7, -111:13:46.4, -109:57:20.6, -108:40:52.9]


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> For those questioning the significance of D12 ...
> 
> Today, there are 28 Ka transponders for national HD between D10/D11.
> 
> With D12, there will be 44, a 57% increase.
> 
> Along with the HD LiL capacity increases.
> 
> This is not a short term 2010 item, a 57% HD increase is very significant in the long term, with many useful possibilities over time.


I wonder how many will be set aside for 3D channels...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Tom Servo said:


> I'll predict test channels on the 19th, a few gifts on the 26th and a bigger roll out on June 2nd.


I just hope they roll out as many new HD channels as they can in the first few months and not "dill dally around" the next six months with adding them.


----------



## jacmyoung

dclarke said:


> yep, and amen to that. the fact that you, yourself have over 5000 posts regarding sat tv in general further reinforces my point about the ilk that contribute to 8000+ posts on the movement of an outer space object, ...... man i gotta get a life


I hope you realize by now I am your only friend here


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PhilS said:


> I wonder how many will be set aside for 3D channels...


Likely 1 transponder will handle the initial 3D...


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Is there a D13 or D14 planned?


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> The FCC approvals from 7/28/2009 ... the Notes are from early September last time I checked:
> 
> 
> 
> *FCC Application*
> |
> *Company*
> |
> *Callsign*
> |
> *Slot*
> |
> *Notes*
> 
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00031|Intelsat|S2662|91°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00042|Pegasus|S2698|91°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00099|
> *DirecTV|*
> S2711|99°|Paid (RB-1)
> SAT-LOA-20050210-00029|Intelsat|S2660|99°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20060908-00100|
> *DirecTV*
> |S2712|103°|Paid (RB-2)
> |
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00049|DirecTV|	S2242|107°|Surrendered
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00052|EchoStar|S2442|107°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-20060412-00043|Pegasus|S2699|107°|Surrendered
> |
> SAT-LOA-20020328-00051|EchoStar|S2441|111°|Paid
> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050|
> *DirecTV*
> |	S2243|111°|Paid (RB-4)





wilbur_the_goose said:


> Is there a D13 or D14 planned?


See above. The BSS satellites. RB-x.


----------



## Kentstater

davemayo said:


> It should go live on 5/21. My 40th bday!


No, 5-28 my 60th birthday.

Can I change my avitar?
What if it doesn't stop.
What if.........................

Oh never-mind I'll let the experts do what their paid to do, and wait for my birthday present.


----------



## erosroadie

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :lol: Good one - I catch your drift.
> 
> D12 seems to be approaching 91 already...movin on....


Sure hope they checked out the brakes before beginning their journey...


----------



## Hoosier205

Wow...102.765 already.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Hoosier205 said:


> Wow...102.765 already.


I think that's moving to, not actually at yet. 

Mike


----------



## Hoosier205

First of all, I lack the technical knowledge or terminology to ask this question correction. 

Once a satellite is parked and in service...how much do they move within that position? For instance, one D12 is parked in its final location: How much movement is there in any direction (normally)? I assume that it cannot remain perfectly in place in relation to the earth. I imagine that there is a tiny bit of floating here and there in all directions with constant corrections being made...automatically perhaps. How much movement is expected or possible away from say...103?

That may be a stupid question, but I hope it at least makes some amount of sense.


----------



## Hoosier205

MicroBeta said:


> I think that's moving to, not actually at yet.
> 
> Mike


Oops...I should have read that a bit more carefully.


----------



## BudShark

jsg said:


> Just for fun, here are predictions from pyephem for both moving satellites. It produces output in degrees, minutes, and seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> === NO WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND. EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
> === Only meant to feed curiosity, and it might not even do that
> === This is just a toy. Assume all output is wrong
> DIRECTV 12 My location is -83.6505 41.375
> DIRECTV 12 Element Number 171 Element Epoch 2010/5/4 04:32:39
> DIRECTV 12 Current Viewing Azimuth 190:54:11.3 Elevation 41:36:21.6
> DIRECTV 12 Longitude now and in 20 days -90:54:40.8 -139:59:39.0 ***
> DIRECTV 12 Latitude now and later -0:04:16.6 -0:06:47.0
> DIRECTV 12 Elevation from earth in meters 35921864.0 Deviation 135864.0
> DIRECTV 12 Current time UTC 2010/5/5 13:09:45 - in 20 days 2010/5/25 13:09:45
> DIRECTV 12 Longitude now and for the next 20 days
> DIRECTV 12 [-90:54:40.8, -93:22:08.5, -95:49:40.0, -98:17:13.9, -100:44:49.0, -103:12:23.7, -105:39:56.6, -108:07:26.3, -110:34:51.7, -113:02:12.2, -115:29:27.8, -117:56:39.2, -120:23:47.3, -122:50:53.3, -125:17:58.2, -127:45:02.3, -130:12:05.1, -132:39:05.5, -135:06:02.0, -137:32:53.5, -139:59:39.0]
> ECHOSTAR 14 My location is -83.6505 41.375
> ECHOSTAR 14 Element Number 73 Element Epoch 2010/5/5 05:18:01
> ECHOSTAR 14 Current Viewing Azimuth 241:21:46.1 Elevation 20:29:03.4
> ECHOSTAR 14 Longitude now and in 20 days -134:02:31.7 -108:40:52.9 ***
> ECHOSTAR 14 Latitude now and later 0:00:56.1 -0:02:24.9
> ECHOSTAR 14 Elevation from earth in meters 35686980.0 Deviation -99020.0
> ECHOSTAR 14 Current time UTC 2010/5/5 13:09:45 - in 20 days 2010/5/25 13:09:45
> ECHOSTAR 14 Longitude now and for the next 20 days
> ECHOSTAR 14 [-134:02:31.7, -132:47:06.3, -131:31:38.2, -130:16:06.9, -129:00:31.5, -127:44:51.2, -126:29:05.1, -125:13:12.6, -123:57:12.9, -122:41:06.2, -121:24:52.9, -120:08:34.2, -118:52:11.8, -117:35:47.4, -116:19:22.5, -115:02:58.1, -113:46:34.3, -112:30:10.7, -111:13:46.4, -109:57:20.6, -108:40:52.9]


:lol:

For the conspiracy theorists out there... It would appear that E14 and D12 will possibly collide between Day 12 and Day 13... :grin: Just sayin'...

!rolling  Oh wait, I just read the disclaimer. I'm supposed to assume all output is wrong. Ok... I'll add that disclaimer to my post.

***Please assume all posts from this poster are wrong.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> Wow...102.765 already.


Nope...actually...its reported at 90.98...assuming that source is current.


----------



## Sixto

Hoosier205 said:


> Wow...102.765 already.





MicroBeta said:


> I think that's moving to, not actually at yet.
> 
> Mike





Hoosier205 said:


> Oops...I should have read that a bit more carefully.


Yep, with the rapid movement, felt it was best to just state it's moving, and where it's moving to. Port#1 will always have the latest TLE.

The latest projection is 2.5° per day, reaching 102.765° by early/mid next week.

Probably around 91° right now.


----------



## jsg

BudShark said:


> :lol:
> 
> For the conspiracy theorists out there... It would appear that E14 and D12 will possibly collide between Day 12 and Day 13... :grin: Just sayin'...
> 
> !rolling  Oh wait, I just read the disclaimer. I'm supposed to assume all output is wrong. Ok... I'll add that disclaimer to my post.
> 
> ***Please assume all posts from this poster are wrong.


Could happen. I believe D-12 is going to take a victory lap before they park it


----------



## Todd H

Wow. I take a break from this thread and when I come back she's drifting. Nice. :righton:


----------



## LameLefty

Hoosier205 said:


> First of all, I lack the technical knowledge or terminology to ask this question correction.
> 
> Once a satellite is parked and in service...how much do they move within that position? For instance, one D12 is parked in its final location: How much movement is there in any direction (normally)? I assume that it cannot remain perfectly in place in relation to the earth. I imagine that there is a tiny bit of floating here and there in all directions with constant corrections being made...automatically perhaps. How much movement is expected or possible away from say...103?
> 
> That may be a stupid question, but I hope it at least makes some amount of sense.


The terminology used most often is "stationkeeping envelope" - if I recall correctly, the FCC allows satellite operators to have 0.025º degrees, which is (very) roughly 11.5 miles to either side of their nominal orbital slot, along with the small altitude variation necessary to keep it confined in that region.


----------



## Newshawk

-Draino- said:


> I have to agree. I just don't see what all the hype is all about. Of the new HD channels, I'll watch maybe 2 of them.


That may be true, but then I might watch two different ones, and someone else might watch two other completely different ones, and so on, and so on... Variety. Choice. Freedom. Isn't it great? :hurah:


----------



## Sixto

Have added the following to post#1.

Here's an estimate of D12's location, it's just an estimate (will update at each TLE):

Wed (5/5): 91°
Thur (5/6): 93.5°
Fri (5/7): 96°
Sat (5/8): 98.5°
Sun (5/9): 101°
Mon (5/10): 102.765°


----------



## Hoosier205

LameLefty said:


> The terminology used most often is "stationkeeping envelope" - if I recall correctly, the FCC allows satellite operators to have 0.025º degrees, which is (very) roughly 11.5 miles to either side of their nominal orbital slot, along with the small altitude variation necessary to keep it confined in that region.


Thank you!


----------



## jacmyoung

Now that we are pretty much settled in the reality of the drift, can I get back to our on topic argument for a moment?

Assume that D12 is now in a stable higher orbit, in addition to the fact it now has to travel a longer distance to complete one circle around the orbit, it is actually traveling in a slower speed along the path of the orbit too?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Have added the following to post#1.
> 
> Here's an estimate of D12's location, it's just an estimate (will update at each TLE):
> 
> Wed (5/5): 91°
> Thur (5/6): 93.5°
> Fri (5/7): 96°
> Sat (5/8): 98.5°
> Sun (5/9): 101°
> Mon (5/10): 102.765°


Wow! Maybe new HD a week from today? :grin: I'd be happy to see the DIRECTV logo via D12....


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> Wow! Maybe new HD a week from today? :grin: I'd be happy to see the DIRECTV logo via D12....


signal yes, channels nope.

but the following week ... or next ....


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Yep, with the rapid movement, felt it was best to just state it's moving, and where it's moving to. Port#1 will always have the latest TLE.
> 
> *The latest projection is 2.5° per day*, reaching 102.765° by early/mid next week.
> 
> Probably around 91° right now.


That would be require a lot of xenon consuming ... I'd like to see second/third TLE to estimate the speed.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> That would be require a lot of xenon consuming ... I'd like to see second/third TLE to estimate the speed.


Was just using the regular Orbitron projection, with the current orbit (TLE).

Obviously can change.

And also maps to movement from last week.

And it can change.


----------



## Grydlok

my bets the 25th


----------



## bagdropper

By an installer friend of mine May 15th is when the new channels goes live - he told me this last Monday morning.

Dunno if he truly knows or not, but I asked him, when will D12 be online for new channels, May 15 was his answer.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> That would be require a lot of xenon consuming ... I'd like to see second/third TLE to estimate the speed.


No it wouldn't. Look up the definition of "ISP" and why XIPS is vastly preferable to chemical bipropellants.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

bagdropper said:


> By an installer friend of mine May 15th is when the new channels goes live - he told me this last Monday morning.
> 
> Dunno if he truly knows or not, but I asked him, when will D12 be online for new channels, May 15 was his answer.


Your installer friend is passing along rumors, not necessarily facts.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> That would be require a lot of xenon consuming ... I'd like to see second/third TLE to estimate the speed.


One other point ... of course we'll be updating the projection after every TLE.

For now, we use what we have.


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> Now that we are pretty much settled in the reality of the drift, can I get back to our on topic argument for a moment?
> 
> Assume that D12 is now in a stable higher orbit, in addition to the fact it now has to travel a longer distance to complete one circle around the orbit, it is actually traveling in a slower speed along the path of the orbit too?


Depends on what is moving. :grin: Speed in relation of D12 to the mass around it or speed in relation to a single point on the ground? As it moves higher, it takes more forward momentum to maintain zero ground movement. So travelling at the same speed, a lower position will have a faster ground speed than a higher position, yet the velocity in respect to the mass surrounding the object is the same.

So first define whether you are evaluating speed based on ground speed, or speed based on a directional velocity of the satellite.

(And yes, I'm out of my league, but I know enough to know that question needs to be answered.)


----------



## Hutchinshouse

bagdropper said:


> By an installer friend of mine May 15th is when the new channels goes live - he told me this last Monday morning.
> 
> Dunno if he truly knows or not, but I asked him, when will D12 be online for new channels, May 15 was his answer.


We've never had channel go live on a Saturday. Right?


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> We've never had channel go live on a Saturday. Right?


Always the chance of 103 (ca) signal on 5/15 or any day, but zero chance they're launching on a Saturday.


----------



## Carl Spock

Who knew D12 was Jewish?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Funny, it doesn't look Jewish.

(please feel free to think about, and not post, all sorts of inappropriate followups.)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Carl Spock said:


> Who knew D12 was Jewish?


Ummmm...what? :scratchin


----------



## Carl Spock

Orthodox Jews don't work on the Sabbath.

It was a joke.

And the moment you have to explain a joke, it obviously wasn't funny.

But then I use Yiddish insults and terms of endearment in my daily speech.



And I'm glad I have the same strange sense of humor as Stuart. :grin:


----------



## njblackberry

And it would have to drift right to left (another Jewish joke and I can make them)...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually if you think about it, the apparent retrograde motion of the planets is a lot like the hora, but I digress. I'm pretty sure satellites are not Jewish.


----------



## LameLefty

Stuart Sweet said:


> Funny, it doesn't look Jewish.
> 
> (please feel free to think about, and not post, all sorts of inappropriate followups.)


Can we make Seventh Day Adventist jokes? :grin:

(I kid, I kid. I'm not one, but the most popular doc in the little town where my ex-wife is from WAS, and he was the most popular because he was open Sundays after church, though he was closed on Saturdays).


----------



## seern

Sixto said:


> Always the chance of 103 (ca) signal on 5/15 or any day, but zero chance they're launching on a Saturday.


Hasn't it almost always been a Wednesday which would make the first go live channels 5/19/10 if we got there by 5/15.


----------



## HarleyD

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually if you think about it, the apparent retrograde motion of the planets is a lot like the hora, but I digress. I'm pretty sure satellites are not Jewish.


Maybe not Orthodox, but the Reformed Jews move in different circles.


----------



## evan_s

Sixto said:


> For those questioning the significance of D12 ...
> 
> Today, there are 28 Ka transponders for national HD between D10/D11.
> 
> With D12, there will be 44, a 57% increase.
> 
> Along with the HD LiL capacity increases.
> 
> This is not a short term 2010 item, a 57% HD increase is very significant in the long term, with many useful possibilities over time.


Last press release I saw DirecTV wasn't claiming any increase in HD LiL capacity. Instead, it was still stating the same 1500 LiL's capacity. This seems to be because D12 is a "replacement" for d10 to correct it's spot issues. I suspect what we will actually see is that the spots will be shared between both d10 and d12 which is going to help D12 run at 16 conus tp's instead of 14 like d10 and d11 have been. I also wouldn't be too surprised to see d10 turn two extra TPs back on once d12 has taken over some of the spots and they have started to fill up d12. We know it ran 16tps in the past and with less power needs for spots it should be able to do it again.

I am also going to predict RB1 at 99 will be the next sat launched which will have a BSS payload and some KA Hi conus tps like D12. Allowing some immediate expansion of national HD channels with existing equipment.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Stuart Sweet said:


> Funny, it doesn't look Jewish.
> 
> (please feel free to think about, and not post, all sorts of inappropriate followups.)


D12 needs it's hair dryer... it can't live with out it.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Sixto said:


> Have added the following to post#1.
> 
> Here's an estimate of D12's location, it's just an estimate (will update at each TLE):
> 
> Wed (5/5): 91°
> Thur (5/6): 93.5°
> Fri (5/7): 96°
> Sat (5/8): 98.5°
> Sun (5/9): 101°
> Mon (5/10): 102.765°


Thank-you. You have no idea how much my Wife will appreciate this.


----------



## joed32

jacmyoung said:


> Now that we are pretty much settled in the reality of the drift, can I get back to our on topic argument for a moment?
> 
> Assume that D12 is now in a stable higher orbit, in addition to the fact it now has to travel a longer distance to complete one circle around the orbit, it is actually traveling in a slower speed along the path of the orbit too?


I'm not one of the experts but I understand that by raising it to a higher orbit is slowing it down as far it's relationship the the ground is concerned. It is drifting backwards to reach 103. Would that be right?


----------



## rey_1178

Where is James Long???? Haven't seen a post since the drift was reported.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Long has many other responsibilities on this site and I'm sure there's a limit to the amount of time he chooses to spend policing this thread. That's what I'm here for.


----------



## uncrules

rey_1178 said:


> Where is James Long???? Haven't seen a post since the drift was reported.





Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Long has many other responsibilities on this site and I'm sure there's a limit to the amount of time he chooses to spend policing this thread. That's what I'm here for.


He did spend a lot time here before D12 started drifting. He even said he was just being a "regular" poster.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'll be sure to tell him you miss him


----------



## mcbeevee

Sixto said:


> SAT-LOA-19970605-00050	DirecTV S2243	111°	Paid (RB-4)


111°?? Does that mean the 3-lnb dishes will need to upgrade to 5 (or 4)-lnb? Either upgrade or add a second dish!


----------



## RAD

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'll be sure to tell him you miss him


That's alright, if he's busy with the Dish forums he should spend his time there if needed.


----------



## jefbal99

mcbeevee said:


> 111°?? Does that mean the 3-lnb dishes will need to upgrade to 5 (or 4)-lnb? Either upgrade or add a second dish!


BSS will most likely require a whole new LNB to receive the signals.


----------



## georule

So is there consensus they "juiced" the drift a little more than we expected? Weren't we looking for ~20 days upstream, and we're actually going to get ~11/12?


----------



## jsg

joed32 said:


> I'm not one of the experts but I understand that by raising it to a higher orbit is slowing it down as far it's relationship the the ground is concerned. It is drifting backwards to reach 103. Would that be right?


Not that I'm an expert, but yes. Its orbital velocity is lower than in geosynchronous orbit, its circumference around the earth is greater and its angular velocity around the earth is lower, giving it a ground (ocean?) speed to the west.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jsg said:


> Not that I'm an expert, but yes. Its orbital velocity is lower than in geosynchronous orbit, its circumference around the earth is greater and its angular velocity around the earth is lower, giving it a ground (ocean?) speed to the west.


You may claim to not be an expert, but you sure said it well.


----------



## thelucky1

Satelliteracer said:


> Can I play?


Yes please satelliteracer we would LOVE to hear your bet on when the new HD channels go live!!!


----------



## wmb

jsg said:


> Not that I'm an expert, but yes. Its orbital velocity is lower than in geosynchronous orbit, its circumference around the earth is greater and its angular velocity around the earth is lower, giving it a ground (ocean?) speed to the west.


This is true, despite the fact that what they did was to speed it up. Basically, speeding it up, increasesd its kinetic energy (energy due to motion). This resulted in it moving to a higher orbit, which has higher potential energy (energy due to height). The higher orbit (higher potential energy) is slower (lower kinetic energy). mathwise, its this....

old kinetic energy + old potential energy + energy from thrust = new kinetic energy + new potential energy

Now, if only we could hire Maxwell's Demon to suck the xenon back in and unthrust the thrust, but alas there is the second law of thermodynamics.


----------



## LameLefty

wmb said:


> ... but alas there is the second law of thermodynamics.


Entropy's a *****.


----------



## wmb

LameLefty said:


> Entropy's a *****.


Yes, but where would we be without it?
http://www.nesh.ca/jameskay/www.fes.uwaterloo.ca/u/jjkay/pubs/Life_as/lifeas.pdf


----------



## evan_s

mcbeevee said:


> 111°?? Does that mean the 3-lnb dishes will need to upgrade to 5 (or 4)-lnb? Either upgrade or add a second dish!


We currently expect BSS to require a new LNB. As far as what 111 will be used for, we don't know yet. It could be backhauling, International channels, locals in some markets etc. There are a number of possibilities and I don't think DirecTV really wants to push their normal window wider so I predict non core usage. Plus I think it's only 12 tps, half of the 24 bss tps, because it is shared with dish.


----------



## bemenaker

What is a BSS satellite?


----------



## afulkerson

Does anybody know how long D12 has to fire its XIPS thruster to slow down when it gets close to 103 , based on it current drift rate???

Do they use multi firings or do they do one long one?? Just curious....


----------



## Tom Robertson

bemenaker said:


> What is a BSS satellite?


BSS is a newly licensed range of frequencies for use by satellite operators to broadcast to home. So a BSS satellite is one that has transponders for the BSS range of frequencies.

D12 has two packages, one with BSS transponders and one for the Ka transponders.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## rrrick8

rey_1178 said:


> Where is James Long???? Haven't seen a post since the drift was reported.


Long gone?


----------



## jdspencer

Anyone think that DirecTV could appease us with a new HD channel using an existing satellite before D12 goes operational? I'm sure there is some available bandwidth that they are holding in reserve.


----------



## Sixto

jdspencer said:


> Anyone think that DirecTV could appease us with a new HD channel using an existing satellite before D12 goes operational? I'm sure there is some available bandwidth that they are holding in reserve.


Nope. 

Didn't happen, other the Univision for a year, don't expect that to change now.


----------



## bobnielsen

jdspencer said:


> Anyone think that DirecTV could appease us with a new HD channel using an existing satellite before D12 goes operational? I'm sure there is some available bandwidth that they are holding in reserve.


They recently added Univision and Telefutura in HD (Spanish language stations).


----------



## yosoyellobo

Lord Vader said:


> They make something for that, you know. Check out the dept. that handles constipation.


Took me this long to get the joke.


----------



## georule

jdspencer said:


> Anyone think that DirecTV could appease us with a new HD channel using an existing satellite before D12 goes operational? I'm sure there is some available bandwidth that they are holding in reserve.


I don't think I'd use an "appease" paradigm for that. . . but they surely must have mid-term plans for how they intended to distribute the channels across the birds. Now that they've finished testing D12, if a new channel on an existing bird fits in those established plans, then yeah, I could see it.

I doubt they'd shuffle plans for a temporary "appeasement", however.


----------



## erosroadie

BudShark said:


> Depends on what is moving. :grin: Speed in relation of D12 to the mass around it or speed in relation to a single point on the ground? As it moves higher, it takes more forward momentum to maintain zero ground movement. So travelling at the same speed, a lower position will have a faster ground speed than a higher position, yet the velocity in respect to the mass surrounding the object is the same.
> 
> So first define whether you are evaluating speed based on ground speed, or speed based on a directional velocity of the satellite.
> 
> (And yes, I'm out of my league, but I know enough to know that question needs to be answered.)


Hmmm. Makes me wonder if we will next be discussing the air speed velocity of an African or European Swallow...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

But the African swallow is non-migratory!


----------



## BudShark

georule said:


> I don't think I'd use an "appease" paradigm for that. . . but they surely must have mid-term plans for how they intended to distribute the channels across the birds. Now that they've finished testing D12, if a new channel on an existing bird fits in those established plans, then yeah, I could see it.
> 
> I doubt they'd shuffle plans for a temporary "appeasement", however.


They shuffled plans and then silenced TLEs so the big Drift announcement would be on Doug's birthday... I wouldn't put anything past them!

!rolling


----------



## erosroadie

Stuart Sweet said:


> But the African swallow is non-migratory!


Following that logic, then we may wish to consider separate posts to discuss the merits of migratory vs. non-migratory satellites. Which class does D12 fall into?..:scratchin


----------



## Tom Robertson

erosroadie said:


> Following that logic, then we may wish to consider separate posts to discuss the merits of migratory vs. non-migratory satellites. Which class does D12 fall into?..:scratchin


Non-migratory. Once it establishes its territory, it will pretty much stick to it for 12-15 years.

Then it might be moved to another territory for Dish to use as a lease from the Canadians...


----------



## BudShark

Tom Robertson said:


> Non-migratory. Once it establishes its territory, it will pretty much stick to it for 12-15 years.
> 
> Then it might be moved to another territory for Dish to use as a lease from the Canadians...


Northern Arc maybe?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

It's not a matter of where he grips it! It's a matter of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a multi-ton satellite!


----------



## erosroadie

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's not a matter of where he grips it! It's a matter of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a multi-ton satellite!


A multi-ton satellite does not weigh multiple tons in space. Probably a piece of cake for a determined swallow (assuming he/she has the requisite environmental suit on)...


----------



## carl6

Alas, the poor swallow in space would not make much progress flapping his wings in a vacuum.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

...and yet....D12 continues on its steady path to its new home in the 103 (102.x) territory....


----------



## Talos4

Meanwhile, not more than two swallow's flights away, Arthur and Bedivere had discovered something. Oh, that's an unladen swallow's flight away, obviously. There were more than two laden swallow's flights away, four really, if they had the coconut on a line between them. I mean, if the birds were walking, and dragging the coconut..


----------



## BudShark

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and yet....D12 continues on its steady path to its new home in the 103 (102.x) territory....


You don't KNOW that... you don't have an updated TLE to KNOW that. We need a statement from DirecTV/Boeing...

!rolling. Sorry... had to be done.


----------



## wmb

BudShark said:


> You don't KNOW that... you don't have an updated TLE to KNOW that. We need a statement from DirecTV/Boeing...


Last time we looked in the box, Schrödinger's cat was just fine, thank you for asking.


----------



## FHSPSU67

BudShark said:


> You don't KNOW that... you don't have an updated TLE to KNOW that. We need a statement from DirecTV/Boeing...
> 
> !rolling. Sorry... had to be done.


And done nicely I might add
Wow, leave this thread for an hour, and all talk has turned to swallows of all types. I'm just happy that my wife will have a few birthday present(s) from Directv on May 27.


----------



## jdspencer

OT a little bit. But could G15 now be considered a migratory sat?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BudShark said:


> You don't KNOW that... you don't have an updated TLE to KNOW that. We need a statement from DirecTV/Boeing...
> 
> !rolling. Sorry... had to be done.


Hmmmm....there are several places the path of satellites are reported....and one certainly is presenting real-time updates - but yes - shy of being up there - its not guaranteed info.


----------



## jacmyoung

wmb said:


> ...The higher orbit ... is slower ...


I don't know about the swallows but I am very happy to know that finally our scientific community is in agreement with our J6P community that D12's speed is indeed slower at a higher orbit now.

After a period of no news and despair, that piece of good news had done the magic, probably got you scientists start drinking too, how else you now agree with us?


----------



## LameLefty

91.49º . . . (barring a new TLE of course).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> 91.49º . . . (barring a new TLE of course).


That's what I see this minute with my extra-powerful binoculars too.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I blinked...91.51 now....but I could be wrong too.


----------



## dpeters11

wmb said:


> Last time we looked in the box, Schrödinger's cat was just fine, thank you for asking.


To quote Stephen Hawking, "When I hear about Schroedinger's cat, I reach for my gun." I tend to agree


----------



## Skyboss

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Speaking of mindless dribble... :nono2:


----------



## Hoosier205

dclarke said:


> over 330 pages of this mindless dribble about a new sat that is going to only be bringing us more mundane programming, hd or not. I see nothing at all noteworthy that it has to offer, maybe im just not that bright??????


Yet you bothered to post in this thread...


----------



## BudShark

Skyboss said:


> Speaking of mindless dribble... :nono2:





Hoosier205 said:


> Yet you bothered to post in this thread...


And yet both of you posted to his mindless post...

And then I posted to you about your posts...

And then someone will post to me about my posts to your posts...

And then someone will make a veiled personal attack...

And then we'll drift off the subject of this thread... (What was this thread about?)

It kinda reminds me of emails to DLs at work...

"You sent this to the wrong DL"
"Yeah, I got this too"
"Me too, remove me from this list"
"Ummm, you all are responding to the DL so we are all getting the emails"
"Yes, everyone please stop responding to this email"
"Please remove me from this email"
"Hi, I changed jobs, how do I get off this DL?"

:lol:


----------



## Skyboss

BudShark said:


> And yet both of you posted to his mindless post...
> 
> And then I posted to you about your posts...
> 
> And then someone will post to me about my posts to your posts...
> 
> And then someone will make a veiled personal attack...
> 
> And then we'll drift off the subject of this thread... (What was this thread about?)
> 
> It kinda reminds me of emails to DLs at work...
> 
> "You sent this to the wrong DL"
> "Yeah, I got this too"
> "Me too, remove me from this list"
> "Ummm, you all are responding to the DL so we are all getting the emails"
> "Yes, everyone please stop responding to this email"
> "Please remove me from this email"
> "Hi, I changed jobs, how do I get off this DL?"
> 
> :lol:


Gotta do something for the next 5 days or so....

BTW... Does this mean D12 finally farted? :goodjob:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah... let's get back to having fun, maybe without picking apart other people's posts. Oh, and I'm going to need you to redo those TPS reports.


----------



## hidefman

Somebody check me if I am way off base here. If D12 is moving approxiamately 2.5 degrees per day.... that's 1840 km per day or 1142.5 miles per day. In a roughly 24 hour period, that's a ground speed of 47.6041666 mph. Yes? Think about it... driving day and night non-stop at 50 mph. Talk about a long cross-country trip.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Hopefully DIRECTV12 holds up better than the old Family Truckster.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

hiedfman - it's 1840 km on earth, but remember, it's 23,000 miles up there!


----------



## hidefman

wilbur_the_goose said:


> hiedfman - it's 1840 km on earth, but remember, it's 23,000 miles up there!


yep.... I did say a *ground *speed of 47.6041666 mph. ( I understand it's velocity in orbit....) I am only trying to pass the time by thinking about ground speed as it moves across the globe. (I stand to be corrected if my math is wrong.... I had that problem in high school.... sometimes I didn't show my work...lol)


----------



## Talos4

Well it has multiple payloads, does it qualify to be in the HOV lane?


----------



## spear61

bemenaker said:


> What is a BSS satellite?


Depends. The International Telecomunication Union (the governing body) says BSS means Broadcasting Satellite Service and it covers a range of frequencies with varying defined meaning in different parts of the world.

The BSS you see referred to here is defined in the US Federal Code of Federal Regulations as : """17/24 GHz Broadcasting-Satellite Service". A radiocommunications service using geostationary satellites between one or more feeder link earth stations and other earth stations, in the 17.3-17.7 GHz (space-to-Earth) (domestic allocation), 17.3-17.8 GHz (international allocation) and 24.75-25.25 GHz frequency bands. This service is also known as "17/24 GHz BSS.""

This freqency falls between the 12 Ghz frequencies and the 18 Ghz frequncies presently used by Directv (it means there will be more spectrum becoming available to serve you better).

You may also see it see it referred to as "Reverse Band" or "Extended Band".

It should always be referred to as "17/24 Ghz BSS" in North American since the ITU definitons and regulations for "BSS" in the Americas (Region 2) also include the 12 Ghz frequencies.


----------



## Dradran

I imagine the SWiM dishes can receive whatever they decide to transmit on the BSS transponders?


----------



## Skyboss

hidefman said:


> Somebody check me if I am way off base here. If D12 is moving approxiamately 2.5 degrees per day.... that's 1840 km per day or 1142.5 miles per day. In a roughly 24 hour period, that's a ground speed of 47.6041666 mph. Yes? Think about it... driving day and night non-stop at 50 mph. Talk about a long cross-country trip.


Thats a lot of "Daddy are were there yet?"


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hopefully DIRECTV12 holds up better than the old Family Truckster.


!rolling !rolling


----------



## slimoli

Directv site has been updated again: From "soon" to "May" . I like "May" better


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> Directv site has been updated again: From "soon" to "May" . I like "May" better


91.62º . . . vrooom!


----------



## Rikinky

I know everyone is excited about the new HD Channels as well as me, But we should all be thankful for the advancement of technology that Directv in their equipment for recieving these new HD Channels because when it's all said and done Dish and Directv will probabaly have the same amount of HD Channels but let's be thankfull that are house won't look like this to recieve them all.






....Just Sayin


----------



## bobnielsen

Dradran said:


> I imagine the SWiM dishes can receive whatever they decide to transmit on the BSS transponders?


Possibly. The Ka LNBs have a 18.05 GHz local oscillator and if you subtract the 17.3-17.7 GHz transmit range from this you get a frequency range of 750-350 MHz, which is in the same range as Ka-low. Since RB-2A only has spotbeams, this may be possible without creating interference issues, although there are limitations.

Any frequencies used for this could not overlap CONUS transponder frequencies from D10, only spotbeams. This may not apply if a redesigned or separate LNB assembly with a different mixing scheme is used. The same issues will apply if a future BSS satellite becomes operational at 99 deg.


----------



## Davenlr

While everyone is waiting, can someone explain how Norad or whomever comes out with the TLEs knows exactly where everything is? Radar, pings from the satellite, big telescope?? I mean, the TLEs are pretty preceise...what do they watch the stuff with to get all that data?


----------



## judson_west

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hopefully DIRECTV12 holds up better than the old Family Truckster.


Well, the Family Truckster held up after a big crash:




> *[URL="http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001309/"]Rusty Griswold*





> : Wow dad, we must have jumped that rail by like 50 yards.
> *Clark*: Nothing to be proud of Russ...
> [_pauses as Rusty walks away_]
> *Clark*: [_proudly_] ... 50 yards...


[/URL]


----------



## jacmyoung

hidefman said:


> Somebody check me if I am way off base here. If D12 is moving approxiamately 2.5 degrees per day.... that's 1840 km per day or 1142.5 miles per day. In a roughly 24 hour period, that's a ground speed of 47.6041666 mph. Yes? Think about it... driving day and night non-stop at 50 mph. Talk about a long cross-country trip.


And to think all it had to do to accomplish the above was a xenon fart!


----------



## brown291

So what can we expect from this Launch hopefully more HD channels


----------



## dcowboy7

brown291 said:


> So what can we expect from this Launch hopefully more HD channels


Hovercrafts full of eels.


----------



## HIGHWAY

91.86 on way to 102.765


----------



## Sixto

New TLE #172. Same timestamp as 171. Results in a few minutes.


----------



## Sixto

Update #172 (refined - same timestamp)


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-04-2010 04:32:39
Orbit # at Epoch	134
Inclination		0.088
RA of A. Node		61.909
Eccentricity		0.0004854
Argument of Perigee	183.271
Revs per day		0.99434312
Period			24h 08m 11s (1448.18 min)
Semi-major axis		42 401 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 002 x 36 044 km
Element number / age	172 / 1 day(s)

Lon			87.7263° W
Lat			0.0387° N
Alt (km)		36 007.310

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°
169 04-28 09:50 35,776 x 35,797     21 + 7.49H 120.39D  76.03°W  0.05°S  0.09°
168 04-28 02:20 35,779 x 35,795     16 +19.15H 120.08D  76.01°W  0.05°N  0.08°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Athlon646464

:joy:!pride:joy:


----------



## Sixto

With this new TLE, refined version with same timestamp from yesterday, it's moving even faster.

Would reach target by 5/9/2010, but we really need to wait and see the next TLE.

With TLE#172, would be at 93.05° right now.


----------



## georule

hidefman said:


> Somebody check me if I am way off base here. If D12 is moving approxiamately 2.5 degrees per day.... that's 1840 km per day or 1142.5 miles per day. In a roughly 24 hour period, that's a ground speed of 47.6041666 mph. Yes? Think about it... driving day and night non-stop at 50 mph. Talk about a long cross-country trip.


Yeah, but it doesn't have to stop to pee and let the wife check out every single aisle in the conveinence store because it just miiiight have something different than the last 10 did.


----------



## GoPokes43

Sixto said:


> With this new TLE, refined version with same timestamp from yesterday, it's moving even faster.
> 
> Would reach target by 5/9/2010, but we really need to wait and see the next TLE.
> 
> With TLE#172, would be at 93.05° right now.


So, that might indicate it's already time to start putting on the brakes. Maybe no more TLEs until it's in position (unless another one comes rolling in soon)?


----------



## carl6

Davenlr said:


> While everyone is waiting, can someone explain how Norad or whomever comes out with the TLEs knows exactly where everything is? Radar, pings from the satellite, big telescope?? I mean, the TLEs are pretty preceise...what do they watch the stuff with to get all that data?


Primarily radar tracking.


----------



## davring

carl6 said:


> Primarily radar tracking.


Radar at that great distance with such precision is amazing.


----------



## rey_1178

rrrick8 said:


> Long gone?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Davenlr said:


> While everyone is waiting, can someone explain how Norad or whomever comes out with the TLEs knows exactly where everything is? Radar, pings from the satellite, big telescope?? I mean, the TLEs are pretty preceise...what do they watch the stuff with to get all that data?


I've read that it's primarily radar. I don't think there's a terrestrial telescope that can see D12. After a quick calculation it seems that it would have to have 10x the resolution of the Hubble...I think. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Ulicni

MicroBeta said:


> I don't think there's a terrestrial telescope that can see D12.
> Mike


It's possible.
http://www.satobs.org/geosats.html


----------



## spear61

Davenlr said:


> While everyone is waiting, can someone explain how Norad or whomever comes out with the TLEs knows exactly where everything is? Radar, pings from the satellite, big telescope?? I mean, the TLEs are pretty preceise...what do they watch the stuff with to get all that data?


You will find the info you want here. He maintains a service for satellite operators that advises them on collison avoidance.

http://www.celestrak.com/


----------



## LameLefty

Doppler tracking is very, very accurate as well. Add in the accelerometers and star trackers that are generally part of a satellite bus for GNC, it's fairly easy to come up with accurate tracking data for professionals. The amateurs who do it for classified recon sats have to do it the old fashioned way with precise observations and angular velocity estimates.


----------



## jefbal99

Dradran said:


> I imagine the SWiM dishes can receive whatever they decide to transmit on the BSS transponders?


I believe speculation is new LNBs no matter what...



Davenlr said:


> While everyone is waiting, can someone explain how Norad or whomever comes out with the TLEs knows exactly where everything is? Radar, pings from the satellite, big telescope?? I mean, the TLEs are pretty preceise...what do they watch the stuff with to get all that data?


I believe they use the Space Fence


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> ...The amateurs who do it for classified recon sats have to do it the old fashioned way ...


Please don't tell us we tax payers' spent hundreds of billions only to have amateurs do the work with old fashioned tools, if so I want my money back.


----------



## BudShark

Ulicni said:


> It's possible.
> http://www.satobs.org/geosats.html


Wow... impressive stuff by following the links on there!


----------



## dcowboy7

jefbal99 said:


> I believe speculation is new LNBs no matter what...
> 
> I believe they use the Space Fence


Wish we had a Fence that good on the border.


----------



## dpeters11

jacmyoung said:


> Please don't tell us we tax payers' spent hundreds of billions only to have amateurs do the work with old fashioned tools, if so I want my money back.


I think it's more amateurs trying to keep track of what the Government is up to. Or just a hobby to try to figure it out. But with the way things are, it may be up to an amateur to find that there's an asteroid on a collision course.


----------



## bobnielsen

MicroBeta said:


> I've read that it's primarily radar. I don't think there's a terrestrial telescope that can see D12. After a quick calculation it seems that it would have to have 10x the resolution of the Hubble...I think. :grin:
> 
> Mike


The very first synchronous satellite, Syncom I in 1963, had a postlaunch failure but nonetheless ended up at 22,300 miles with a 31 degree inclination. Although it was much smaller than D12, it was eventually spotted via telescope (it had the Clarke belt all to itself for several months).


----------



## matt

dcowboy7 said:


> Wish we had a Fence that good on the border.


Flat, a couple feet tall, and you can crawl under it easily?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bobnielsen said:


> The very first synchronous satellite, Syncom I in 1963, had a postlaunch failure but nonetheless ended up at 22,300 miles with a 31 degree inclination. Although it was much smaller than D12, it was eventually spotted via telescope (it had the Clarke belt all to itself for several months).


But what can you see beyond a dot, and only at certain times of day, and you probably can't be very accurate in positioning...all a guess but I gotta believe that radar would be much more accruate.

Mike


----------



## smiddy

Hey, it is Cinco de Mayo! Does everyone know where DirecTV - 12 is?


----------



## jdspencer

Yup! It's up there.


----------



## jacmyoung

smiddy said:


> Hey, it is Cinco de Mayo! Does everyone know where DirecTV - 12 is?





matt1124 said:


> Flat, a couple feet tall, and you can crawl under it easily?


At least don't put up that fence until after Cinco de Mayo is no longer observed, or after D12 is found, can you imagine us Americans with beer bellies forced to crawl under it just to have some fun south of the border?


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> With this new TLE, refined version with same timestamp from yesterday, it's moving even faster.
> 
> Would reach target by 5/9/2010, but we really need to wait and see the next TLE.
> 
> With TLE#172, would be at 93.05° right now.


Soon it will be Festivus!!


----------



## ldgatlin

Great news that D12 is drifting! Had some more good news today, our local translators are going HD early next week. I will finally get to see our local channels in HD! I figure after all this waiting and finally getting locals in HD OTA, DirecTV would now announce that DMA 131 is one of LiL HD markets they will be adding once D12 is in full operation…


----------



## jacmyoung

ATARI said:


> Soon it will be Festivus!!


Let's first not forget to slow it down The faster the speed, the more likely we may over shoot it, I learned it the hard way a few times when I rushed too much and missed the final exit, ended up on the other side of the bay


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> Please don't tell us we tax payers' spent hundreds of billions only to have amateurs do the work with old fashioned tools, if so I want my money back.


Amateurs can only track the big stuff that is (semi-)secret. (And over the US, mostly Russian...)

Norad tracks stuff down to bolt size, depending on orbit, to keep it from hitting the satellites that still work.

Well that and to keep track of the really secret stuff other countries have over our head...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## afulkerson

New TLE this morning shows it at 94.44. 

DIRECTV 12
1 36131U 09075A 10126.11323324 -.00000047 00000-0 10000-3 0 1734
2 36131 000.0920 062.1635 0004848 181.5046 287.4543 00.99433603 1369


----------



## syphix

afulkerson said:


> New TLE this morning shows it at 94.44.
> 
> DIRECTV 12
> 1 36131U 09075A 10126.11323324 -.00000047 00000-0 10000-3 0 1734
> 2 36131 000.0920 062.1635 0004848 181.5046 287.4543 00.99433603 1369


Sixto's estimate seems slightly off, and the bird appears to be flying a bit faster than predicted!


Sixto said:


> Wed (5/5): 91°
> Thur (5/6): 93.5°
> Fri (5/7): 96°
> Sat (5/8): 98.5°
> Sun (5/9): 101°
> Mon (5/10): 102.765°


My prediction: it'll be at 102.765 by late Sunday/early Monday, settle into a park over 5-6 days, start lighting up tests the following weekend (5/15), with 1-2 channels starting 5/19 (maybe lit up on D10/D11 until testing is _completely_ done on D12).


----------



## Mike Bertelson

My prediction is....

wait for it....

SOON! 

ba-dum-bum-crash :lol:

Mike


----------



## smiddy

Moving, yes!


----------



## BudShark

MicroBeta said:


> My prediction is....
> 
> ba-dum-bum-crash
> 
> Mike


 D12 crashed? Into another satellite? Into the ground? Oh the humanity! :eek2:

!rolling


----------



## BudShark

syphix said:


> Sixto's estimate seems slightly off, and the bird appears to be flying a bit faster than predicted!
> My prediction: it'll be at 102.765 by late Sunday/early Monday, settle into a park over 5-6 days, start lighting up tests the following weekend (5/15), with 1-2 channels starting 5/19 (maybe lit up on D10/D11 until testing is _completely_ done on D12).


I have a suspiscion that the test window will be relatively short... I'm sure it will still take time, but my window for test channels visible from D12 is 5/12 at the earliest, 5/20 at the latest - with live channels following the next week (5/19-5/27)


----------



## jefbal99

syphix said:


> Sixto's estimate seems slightly off, and the bird appears to be flying a bit faster than predicted!
> My prediction: it'll be at 102.765 by late Sunday/early Monday, settle into a park over 5-6 days, start lighting up tests the following weekend (5/15), with 1-2 channels starting 5/19 (maybe lit up on D10/D11 until testing is _completely_ done on D12).


Damn, they have that thing in the fast lane. Hope they remember to use their blinkers when passing...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Just checked again now, at its current pace....it should arrive around the 103 *neighborhood* some time mid-to-late Saturday....followed by any parking procedures required to stablize it in its final position (that may take a couple more days).

This timeline would also seem to assure the May new HD channel launches, and activation prior to its competitor's sat being ready. It seems like a small kind of "mini-space-race" to get them both live at this time. 

Everything seems NOM EE NAL.


----------



## oldfantom

You people that want to rely on the facts and data are obviously not the right type of people to post in this thread. Where are the charter members of the Chicken Little Club when we need a strong voice of conspiracy in the gail winds of reason?


----------



## BudShark

oldfantom said:


> You people that want to rely on the facts and data are obviously not the right type of people to post in this thread. Where are the charter members of the Chicken Little Club when we need a strong voice of conspiracy in the gail winds of reason?


I do believe they are running out of ample wiggle room for conspiracy theories. There just doesn't appear to be room for anymore. For all the guessing and postulating, it does appear DirecTV/Boeing knew what they were doing and were quite comfortable with the satellite, the timeframes, and their published statements. Although some people wanted to make it seem like things were amiss... it would appear, as stated by others, they are NOM-EE-NAL and D12 will be _on_ service as planned.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

oldfantom said:


> You people that want to rely on the facts and data are obviously not the right type of people to post in this thread. Where are the charter members of the Chicken Little Club when we need a strong voice of conspiracy in the gail winds of reason?


While D12 is traveling at 2 miles per second right now...the sky is not falling.


----------



## LameLefty

94.7º and moving on . . . Westward ho!


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> 94.7º and moving on . . . Westward ho!


Who you calling a "ho"??


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Everything seems NOM EE NAL.


----------



## Sixto

As other's have mentioned:


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-06-2010 02:43:03
Orbit # at Epoch	136
Inclination		0.092
RA of A. Node		62.164
Eccentricity		0.0004848
Argument of Perigee	181.505
Revs per day		0.99433603
Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 401 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 003 x 36 044 km
Element number / age	173 / 0 day(s)

Lon			93.5505° W
Lat			0.0689° N
Alt (km)		36 016.480

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°
169 04-28 09:50 35,776 x 35,797     21 + 7.49H 120.39D  76.03°W  0.05°S  0.09°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.

And the updated projections ... also in post#1 ...

An estimate of D12's location 12noon ET each day, it's just the current best-guess estimate (will update at each TLE and it can change ):

Thur (5/6) 12n ET: 95.1°
Fri (5/7) 12n ET: 98.1°
Sat (5/8) 12nET : 101.2°
The actual final positioning (parking at 102.765° Geostationary) will take place over several days, as the orbit is lowered back and finely tuned to Geostationary.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Sixto's estimate seems slightly off, and the bird appears to be flying a bit faster than predicted!


Yes, that was from the original TLE.

Mentioned last night that the updated TLE for the 5/4 timestamp had a revised higher orbit and quicker.

Have now updated again with the current TLE, and will continue to update at each TLE.

Good stuff.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Thur (5/6) 12n ET: 95.1°
> Fri (5/7) 12n ET: 98.1°
> Sat (5/8) 12nET : 101.2°
> Sat (5/8) 11:57pm ET: 102.765°


Wow...starting to park on Sunday!! Cool!! :icon_hroc

Any guess on why such a fast drift (not that I'm complaining...)? Maybe DirecTV feels E* nipping on their heels?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Wow...starting to park on Sunday!! Cool!! :icon_hroc
> 
> Any guess on why such a fast drift (not that I'm complaining...)? Maybe DirecTV feels E* nipping on their heels?


It's quite possible that this was the expected Drift time all along.

While the original FCC filing from 2009 stated 20 days, that might have been the worse case scenario.

Also, we've yet to see how long it will take to tweak Geo at 102.765, and we can't be sure when they officially considered testing to be complete and drifting to start.

We may never know, but the good news is that it's truckin across the sky!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Good thing that they don't give out speeding tickets, that thing is zooming!


----------



## BudShark

syphix said:


> Wow...starting to park on Sunday!! Cool!! :icon_hroc
> 
> Any guess on why such a fast drift (not that I'm complaining...)? Maybe DirecTV feels E* nipping on their heels?


I seriously doubt there is a "race" to get the sats in place. You wouldn't even get bragging rights if you were first by a week or two. A year? Yes. A week or a month? No. By the time you got the ads out there and made any traction with them - you'd have to pull them down because the other sat would be parked.

Like Sixto said - this may have been the plans all along. They just happened to correspond to each other and seem faster than expected. But with experience comes speed. A longer testing period, a shorter drift, but at the end of the day, the same window. The time just wasn't spent where we expected it to be... :grin:


----------



## Sixto

From a few moments ago:White finished, "Looking forward, we plan to build on DIRECTV's operating momentum and its heritage of innovation. We have already begun extending our HD leadership as we launch more than 30 new HD channels over the coming weeks. Later this year, we will introduce several other compelling products including a greatly enhanced DIRECTV Cinema, multi-room viewing, 3D programming and the debut of our much-anticipated home media center. We also have exciting growth plans in Latin America highlighted by unparalleled coverage of the FIFA World Cup beginning next month including the region's most comprehensive HD coverage and daily broadcasts of original content."

http://investor.directv.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=467215​


----------



## TheRatPatrol

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ....followed by any parking procedures required to stablize it in its final position (that may take a couple more days).


It doesn't have that auto park feature like some of the new cars have? 

So it sounds like D12 is moving to 103 fast than predicted? Does that mean its burning more fuel?



Sixto said:


> From a few moments ago:
> 
> White finished, "Looking forward, we plan to build on DIRECTV's operating momentum and its heritage of innovation. We have already begun extending our HD leadership *as we launch more than 30 new HD channels* over the coming weeks. Later this year, we will introduce several other compelling products including a greatly enhanced DIRECTV Cinema, multi-room viewing, 3D programming and the debut of our much-anticipated home media center. We also have exciting growth plans in Latin America highlighted by unparalleled coverage of the FIFA World Cup beginning next month including the region's most comprehensive HD coverage and daily broadcasts of original content."


Keywords "more than"


----------



## dcowboy7

TheRatPatrol said:


> Keywords "more than"


Yep can still easily fit 40+ more directv HD cinema channels.


----------



## Hdhead

Since the propulsion system has very little power don't they need to start slowing the drift down, like now, so it doesn't overshoot? and wouldn't that slowdown add time (like a day or two)to the anticipated arrival time?


----------



## EagleClaw

Great news!



Sixto said:


> As other's have mentioned:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		05-06-2010 02:43:03
> Orbit # at Epoch	136
> Inclination		0.092
> RA of A. Node		62.164
> Eccentricity		0.0004848
> Argument of Perigee	181.505
> Revs per day		0.99433603
> Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 401 km
> Perigee x Apogee	36 003 x 36 044 km
> Element number / age	173 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			93.5505° W
> Lat			0.0689° N
> Alt (km)		36 016.480
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
> 172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
> 171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
> 170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°
> 169 04-28 09:50 35,776 x 35,797     21 + 7.49H 120.39D  76.03°W  0.05°S  0.09°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.
> 
> And the updated projections ... also in post#1 ...
> 
> An estimate of D12's location 12noon ET each day, it's just the current best-guess estimate (will update at each TLE and it can change ):
> 
> Thur (5/6) 12n ET: 95.1°
> Fri (5/7) 12n ET: 98.1°
> Sat (5/8) 12nET : 101.2°
> Sat (5/8) 11:57pm ET: 102.765°


----------



## jacmyoung

BudShark said:


> I have a suspiscion that...





BudShark said:


> I do believe they are running out of ample wiggle room for conspiracy theories. There just doesn't appear to be room for anymore...


The above is proof that conspiracy theories are powerful things, one can be pulled right in without even realizing it


----------



## jerrylove56

Sixto said:


> From a few moments ago:White finished, "Looking forward, we plan to build on DIRECTV's operating momentum and its heritage of innovation... our much-anticipated home media center. http://investor.directv.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=467215​


I know this is the wrong thread for this question but what is he referring to?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Something was shown at CES. It was shown by a third party company and really there isn't a lot of information we can say is completely accurate at this point. It may or may not be called HMC30 and may or may not have more than two tuners.


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> Since the propulsion system has very little power don't they need to start slowing the drift down, like now, so it doesn't overshoot? and wouldn't that slowdown add time (like a day or two)to the anticipated arrival time?


It will definitely take longer.

I probably shouldn't even include the location guesstimate, because it's not really accurate as to end date, but figured was fun anyway.

There will be an adjustment to lower the orbit and (slowly) drift into 102.765.


----------



## jacmyoung

jerrylove56 said:


> I know this is the wrong thread for this question but what is he referring to?


It is another secretive term for D12. It will be in your home so to speak.

Now I want to know why you guys use such cryptic number like 102.76548392? It had been 103 all along.

Based on the above two events, how can you blame people from coming up with conspiracy theories?


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Now I want to know why you guys use such cryptic number such as 102.76548392? It had been 103 all along.


"103º W" is the nominal orbital slot. You can't physically place satellites in the same exact place. Satellite operators and the FCC recognize this. Therefore, multiple satellites providing services from the same slot are given offsets of fractional degrees (corresponding to miles of space on either side) at which they are required to park.



> How can you blame people from coming up with conspiracy theories?


Because time and again, the conspiracies are wrong and more logical explanations prevail.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Now I want to know why you guys use such cryptic number like 102.76548392? It had been 103 all along.


I switched all references from 103° to 102.765° because now that everyone is tracking this so closely, it needed to be accurate.

Or we'd have multiple posts as to why it's not at 103.0000000000000000000° yet. 

(There are hundreds, if not thousands, following this thread, just trying to make it as simple as possible to follow)


----------



## BudShark

jacmyoung said:


> The above is proof that conspiracy theories are powerful things, one can be pulled right in without even realizing it


Ahh... but to have a conspiracy I must have an evil, unlawful, or treacherous plan... somehow I don't think suggesting the test window will be shorter than expected or the number of chances for people to suggest things are wrong is running out quite qualifies.

Now - the past chicken little theories of hidden TLEs, failed testing, missed timelines, imminent disaster, or unreported failures... those on the other hand were true conspiracies that required both DirecTV, Boeing, FCC, Military, and in some cases DBSTalk moderator involvement in hiding or witholding facts. Those my friend, were conspiracies.

Try again...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"DBSTalk moderator involvement in hiding or witholding facts?"

Oh, to be Keith Olbermann for a minute...


----------



## syphix

I can't recall from D10/D11...was there a similar "TLE blackout" when parking began?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> 94.7º and moving on . . . Westward ho!


Movin', movin', movin', keep them doggies movin'..... Thanks for the updates all.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> "DBSTalk moderator involvement in hiding or witholding facts?"
> 
> Oh, to be Keith Olbermann for a minute...


Did I mention that conspiracy theories are powful things, one can be a conspirator so deep one does not realize it

BTW, I don't know who Keith Olbermann is, but the name is a perfect fit for a conspirator


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> ...(There are hundreds, if not thousands, following this thread, just trying to make it as simple as possible to follow)


And you think .7658796 is simpler than .0000000? What are you up to?


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> And you think .7658796 is simpler than .0000000? What are you up to?


Yep, 102.765° should be very simple to understand.

As we currently sit at 94.932°.

Hopefully those here can understand decimals.


----------



## HarleyD

However, it seems that understanding decimals and getting the "point" are not one and the same.


----------



## Sixto

HarleyD said:


> However, it seems that understanding decimals and getting the "point" are not one and the same.


Geostationary will be 102.765° at 35,786km with perigee/apogee gap close to 0.

And we've always been tracking to 2 decimal places so we're in good shape.


----------



## cebbigh

jacmyoung said:


> It is another secretive term for D12. It will be in your home so to speak.
> 
> Now I want to know why you guys use such cryptic number like 102.76548392? It had been 103 all along.
> 
> Based on the above two events, how can you blame people from coming up with conspiracy theories?


Humor


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't think Sixto was trying to deceive anyone. The satellite "DIRECTV12" will be known as "103(ca)" in the future, but its orbital position is going to be 102.765° as has always been intended.


----------



## Sixto

Wow, people are actually serious about these 103°/102.765° posts? 

Hilarious.

The orbital "slot" is 103°.

D12 is going to 102.765°.
D10 was moved to 102.815°.
SW1 was moved to 102.925°.

So now we track D12 as it moves to 102.765°.

And we track in post#1 each TLE, with location with decimal places.

What a concept.


----------



## sigma1914

Another LIE from Directv...102.765 is not 103. I'm canceling! 




:lol:


----------



## Hdhead

Hdhead said:


> Since the propulsion system has very little power don't they need to start slowing the drift down, like now, so it doesn't overshoot? and wouldn't that slowdown add time (like a day or two)to the anticipated arrival time?


Anyone care to comment? Lefty, Sixto?


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> Anyone care to comment? Lefty, Sixto?


The answer is yes, that they will need return the orbit to 35,786km with additional maneuvers, but not certain of the specific timing.

My previous response to that post:


Sixto said:


> It will definitely take longer.
> 
> I probably shouldn't even include the location guesstimate, because it's not really accurate as to end date, but figured was fun anyway.
> 
> There will be an adjustment to lower the orbit and (slowly) drift into 102.765.


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> It will definitely take longer.
> 
> I probably shouldn't even include the location guesstimate, because it's not really accurate as to end date, but figured was fun anyway.
> 
> There will be an adjustment to lower the orbit and (slowly) drift into 102.765.


So do you think it would be roughly the same slowing down as starting up? 5 days to move 11 degrees. 5 days to move that last 11? Or is there absolutely no correlation to be possibly made between the two?


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> So do you think it would be roughly the same slowing down as starting up? 5 days to move 11 degrees. 5 days to move that last 11? Or is there absolutely no correlation to be possibly made between the two?


Not sure of the exact specifics.

I am reasonably certain that it will be parked by the end of next week, if not sooner.

Also, reasonably certain that we will see signal at 103 (ca) by/during the week of 5/17/2010, if not sooner.

"live" will follow that, by 5/31 hopefully, maybe 5/19 or 5/26.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> "Because time and again, the conspiracies are wrong and more logical explanations prevail.


And most conspiracies require secrecy. Often for long periods of time. The bigger the conspiracy, the less likely that you could keep all the principals quiet over time. For short term items, like "D12 is dead" the payoff for the lie would be so quickly discovered that the only possible benefit could be stock fraud. That does not happen, I believe, as often as it does on Law & Order et al. Even deep throat did not keep the secret forever.


----------



## Sixto

Then good thing we've been talking about 102.765° since February. 



Sixto said:


> DirecTV-10 and Spaceway-1 approved to move "slightly" for D12 (2/26/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803954
> 
> http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=803976​
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> 
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> 
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


----------



## netraa

Sixto said:


> The answer is yes, that they will need return the orbit to 35,786km with additional maneuvers, but not certain of the specific timing.


unfortunately, no, they will not just slam on the handbrake and do a bootleggers turn and throw the switch.


----------



## EaglePC

Sixto said:


> Then good thing we've been talking about 102.765° since February.


Eagle still spotting,need to work in my Home Theatre Room too.....


----------



## Sixto

netraa said:


> unfortunately, no, they will not just slam on the handbrake and do a bootleggers turn and throw the switch.


Exactly, there will be well planned orbital maneuvers to get to Geostationary. Exactly.


----------



## dmurphy

Sixto said:


> I am reasonably certain that it will be parked by the end of next week, if not sooner.


MORE LIES!!

How can it be parked if it's still moving? It's orbiting the Sun! But the earth is flat! And the universe revolves around Jupiter! And Pluto is still a planet! :lol::lol::lol:

Better yet - how can we park in a driveway and drive on the parkway??? :eek2:

Sheesh.

Sit back, enjoy the orbital mechanics, and watch some freakin' TV


----------



## Doug Brott

I've often wonder what "turning on a dime" meant in outer space.


----------



## Sixto

Should also add, that another TLE blackout, and then D12 pops up parked is also certainly possible. It might even be expected.

The net is ... it's moving rapidly ... and we'll see channels in May.

So we enjoy the ride.


----------



## sigma1914

With the following:
DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.

How far away are these 3 floating from each other? (I don't mean in degrees, I can subtract. :lol


----------



## P Smith

netraa said:


> unfortunately, no, they will not just slam on the handbrake and do a bootleggers turn and throw the switch.


Adding to that there is no brake at all - XIPS thrusters could be compared to braking by your feet the 6 tons track.


----------



## tas3986

102.7 .... Shoot, now I'm going to have to adjust the dish again! I want the motorized SL5. :grin:


----------



## P Smith

sigma1914 said:


> With the following:
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.
> 
> How far away are these 3 floating from each other? (I don't mean in degrees, I can subtract. :lol


If you don't mind to read the thread - back there we calculated the distances at GSO.


----------



## raoul5788

Doug Brott said:


> I've often wonder what "turning on a dime" meant in outer space.


We stopped on a dime. Unfortunately, the dime was in Mr Rococo's pocket!


----------



## curt8403

I am glad to read that at last D12 is moving to the new location.


----------



## BudShark

P Smith said:


> If you don't mind to read the thread - back there we calculated the distances at GSO.


:lol: :lol:

Maybe you should narrow it down to a range of 1000 posts for the poor guy before you send him looking for the needle in the haystack! !rolling


----------



## flexoffset

IIRC from that needle in the haystack, the satellites are given about 7 - 12 miles variance in either direction from their parking place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## LameLefty

flexoffset said:


> IIRC from that needle in the haystack, the satellites are given about 7 - 12 miles variance in either direction from their parking place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


I addressed this yesterday, I think, but station keeping envelopes are 0.025º either way, which amounts to roughly 11 miles in either direction.


----------



## BudShark

flexoffset said:


> IIRC from that needle in the haystack, the satellites are given about 7 - 12 miles variance in either direction from their parking place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


7-12 miles variance? That shouldn't be allowed!... I mean thats like going pee in a convenience store and hitting aisle 12 instead but its ok, it was within my variance!!!

:lol: :lol: Sorry... had to bring the thread down a notch... it was going too well.


----------



## LameLefty

sigma1914 said:


> With the following:
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.
> 
> How far away are these 3 floating from each other? (I don't mean in degrees, I can subtract. :lol


The distance between D10 and SW1 will be roughly 50 miles; the distance between D10 and D12 will be roughly 23 miles.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> 7-12 miles variance?


No, it's 11 miles in either direction (22 miles total).


----------



## sigma1914

P Smith said:


> If you don't mind to read the thread - back there we calculated the distances at GSO.


Yeah, at 8000+ posts that'll be easy. 



BudShark said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> Maybe you should narrow it down to a range of 1000 posts for the poor guy before you send him looking for the needle in the haystack! !rolling


+1...or +102.765



flexoffset said:


> IIRC from that needle in the haystack, the satellites are given about 7 - 12 miles variance in either direction from their parking place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Thanks!


LameLefty said:


> I addressed this yesterday, I think, but station keeping envelopes are 0.025º either way, which amounts to roughly 11 miles in either direction.


Thanks, too!


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> The distance between D10 and SW1 will be roughly 50 miles; the distance between D10 and D12 will be roughly 23 miles.


I'm glad we have rocket scientist here.


----------



## BudShark

sigma1914 said:


> I'm glad we have rocket scientist here.


I've never seen his credentials... He probably just slept at a Holiday Inn last night. I mean really, he's got a Bill Murray Ghostbuster avatar. You wanna trust what HE says?!?

:lol:


----------



## netraa

BudShark said:


> 7-12 miles variance? That shouldn't be allowed!... I mean thats like going pee in a convenience store and hitting aisle 12 instead but its ok, it was within my variance!!!
> 
> :lol: :lol: Sorry... had to bring the thread down a notch... it was going too well.


actually, at the ranges mere mortals use for aiming pee.... that's like aiming for your big toe, and hitting your big toe.

WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT

MOE for .025° at 36 inches is .01 inch.


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> I've never seen his credentials... He probably just slept at a Holiday Inn last night. I mean really, he's got a Bill Murray Ghostbuster avatar. You wanna trust what HE says?!?
> 
> :lol:


That's *DOCTOR* Venkman to you, buddy. "_Who ya' gonna call?"_


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> That's *DOCTOR* Venkman to you, buddy. "_Who ya' gonna call?"_


but who would you rather have for matters of Space? Doctor Venkman or Dr. Who.


----------



## netraa

curt8403 said:


> but who would you rather have for matters of Space? Doctor Venkman or Dr. Who.


I'd rather have Spock.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Wow, people are actually serious about these 103°/102.765° posts?
> 
> Hilarious.
> 
> The orbital "slot" is 103°.
> 
> D12 is going to 102.765°.
> D10 was moved to 102.815°.
> SW1 was moved to 102.925°.
> 
> So now we track D12 as it moves to 102.765°.
> 
> And we track in post#1 each TLE, with location with decimal places.
> 
> What a concept.


Now we are talking, it took me a few posts with the to get our scientific community to speak with our J6P community fully in mind. Please do not forget the simple minded J6Ps, as you said yourself there are thousands of us here.


----------



## dod1450

I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


----------



## syphix

dod1450 said:


> I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


You haven't looked hard enough, then. It's been discussed at length.

But, once more, and in summary: HD. Lots of HD.

D12 is not a "replacement".


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Not sure of the exact specifics.
> 
> I am reasonably certain that it will be parked by the end of next week, if not sooner.
> 
> Also, reasonably certain that we will see signal at 103 (ca) by/during the week of 5/17/2010, if not sooner.
> 
> "live" will follow that, by 5/31 hopefully, maybe 5/19 or 5/26.


Is there a physical process that would necessarily require an extended process between parking and go live. For example, are they going to need to take a few days to extend the panels? I would not think that anything involved in pushing up or bringing down data streams. That should all be software (assuming their uplinks are pointed correctly).


----------



## curt8403

dod1450 said:


> I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


 the new bird has several unused conus transponders, so it will be able to carry more HD programming


----------



## erosroadie

netraa said:


> I'd rather have Spock.


"Fascinating..."


----------



## oldfantom

netraa said:


> I'd rather have Spock.


Carl seems like a nice enough fellow, and his posts are funny, but I am going with Lefty and Sixto on the truly geeky stuff.


----------



## Sixto

dod1450 said:


> I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


Per the title of the thread ... see post#1.

Post any questions here.


----------



## georule

I've been a DirecTV subscriber since last June when I finally Officially Had Enough with another land-based video providers 40 HD channels.

I just offer that as my relative noobness to satellite-based video.

So, given the most current HD equipment provided by D* (which is probably what I have), what are the parameters for parking multiple satellites close together but not requiring someone to go up on my roof and do something about it?

In other words, how many satellites could be parked at ~103 before my dish and/or HR23 would start whimpering and making messes on the screen?


----------



## Indiana627

sigma1914 said:


> With the following:
> DirecTV-10 will move to 102.815°.
> Spaceway-1 will move to 102.925°.
> DirecTV-12 will operate from 102.765°.


So if my current 103 signal strengths are in the 80s at best, should I expect my D12 signals to be lower since it will be even farther away from 103?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> In other words, how many satellites could be parked at ~103 before my dish and/or HR23 would start whimpering and making messes on the screen?


No need to worry, all will be fine.

The location spread has been carefully planned, with each satellite having a defined frequency range, described in post #1.


----------



## zudy

This is all great news for all the D* customers. Great job by all.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Not sure of the exact specifics.
> 
> I am reasonably certain that it will be parked by the end of next week, if not sooner.
> 
> Also, reasonably certain that we will see signal at 103 (ca) by/during the week of 5/17/2010, if not sooner.
> 
> "live" will follow that, by 5/31 hopefully, maybe 5/19 or 5/26.


Regarding 'transitional' period (changing an orbit for drift and back) - with lack of many TLE in-between, seems to me the process taking 5 days with low impulse XIPS engines. And it span 10-11° of GSO arc.


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> So if my current 103 signal strengths are in the 80s at best, should I expect my D12 signals to be lower since it will be even farther away from 103?


Maybe others can comment, but previous discussion has led to conclusion that there's no issue.

A nicely aligned dish should currently have at least some D10 transponders in the 90's.


----------



## jsg

P Smith said:


> Adding to that there is no brake at all - XIPS thrusters could be compared to braking by your feet the 6 tons track.


I've been looking into that.

The Boeing website gives the initial in-orbit mass. On earth it would weigh 8157 lbs. That's about 2.7 Toyota Prius cars. Since we think DirecTV has been conserving fuel maybe it is more than 3 Toyotas.

We think they are using the XIPS thrusters to conserve the rocket fuel so let's look at them. The same website says each thruster produces 165mN (milli-Newtons) of force to change velocity. They fire 2 of 4 at a time, so that totals 330mN. That is the force that your tax return applied to your hand after your wife told you to take it to the post office (assuming you had to add a couple schedules to it and it has an extra stamp on it). In low power mode you it would be you state return and wouldn't need the extra stamp.

Prof. Lamelefty wants us to show our work and I don't want to lose credit so:

Curb weight of a Prius listed on Toyota's web site is 3042 lbs.

8157 lbs. / 3042 lbs. = 2.7

1 gram-force = 9.80665 mN
330mN/(9.80665mN/gram-force) = 33.7 gram-force.
One ounce first class postage limit about equal to 28 grams and the force,
at sea level, of that 28 grams would be 28 gram-force.

If I got something wrong somebody certainly will point it out.  Of course there is no friction of any kind in space so even the tiniest of forces, over time, will make things move--solar radiation for example. Time is key.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Regarding 'transitional' period (changing an orbit for drift and back) - with lack of many TLE in-between, seems to me the process taking 5 days with low impulse XIPS engines. And it span 10-11° of GSO arc.


Could be. That's why I play it safe with late next week. Could be sooner, but we're not sure of the exact maneuvering. Could also be later, but probably not by much (if at all).


----------



## ffemtreed

Indiana627 said:


> So if my current 103 signal strengths are in the 80s at best, should I expect my D12 signals to be lower since it will be even farther away from 103?


Actually it looks like D12 will be closer to the 101 (middle spot) of your dish than the other two sats, so you should get better signal strength.


----------



## curt8403

ffemtreed said:


> Actually it looks like D12 will be closer to the 101 (middle spot) of your dish than the other two sats, so you should get better signal strength.


Non, Nicht, Null. There are basically three tiny windows that are used to get the signal from the 99/ 101/ 103 and having a sat closer to 101 will either put it on the edge of the window, or outside the window.


----------



## raoul5788

oldfantom said:


> Carl seems like a nice enough fellow, and his posts are funny, but I am going with Lefty and Sixto on the truly geeky stuff.


He's up on 60's rock bands, too!


----------



## ffemtreed

curt8403 said:


> Non, Nicht, Null. There are basically three tiny windows that are used to get the signal from the 99/ 101/ 103 and having a sat closer to 101 will either put it on the edge of the window, or outside the window.


I didn't think the dish could differentiate where the signal was coming from. I thought all it did was reflect whatever signal it could get towards the LNB.

So if this window thing is true, how does a larger dish help people who have marginal signal issues?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Maybe others can comment, but previous discussion has led to conclusion that there's no issue.
> 
> A nicely aligned dish should currently have at least some D10 transponders in the 90's.


Mine as of yesterday....averaging 98% strength on 101 and 95% on 103.

By the way...D12 continues....moving well again today....just passed 95.3....


----------



## jacmyoung

jsg said:


> ...Curb weight of a Prius listed on Toyota's web site is 3042 lbs...


Toyota Prius is known for not able to slow down/stop, are you messing with us?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

*STOP RIGHT THERE*

This is not a discussion of Prius' ability to slow down or stop.

As many of you know I'm a Prius owner and if you want to debate the merits of the vehicle, I'm available through private message.


----------



## curt8403

ffemtreed said:


> I didn't think the dish could differentiate where the signal was coming from. I thought all it did was reflect whatever signal it could get towards the LNB.
> 
> So if this window thing is true, how does a larger dish help people who have marginal signal issues?


 a larger dish is able to reflect more signal back to the windows where the signal needs to be to get a usable signal. they are mainly used in areas where the signal is weak to begin with like Alaska, and Hawaii


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> *STOP RIGHT THERE*
> 
> This is not a discussion of Prius' ability to slow down or stop.
> 
> As many of you know I'm a Prius owner and if you want to debate the merits of the vehicle, I'm available through private message.


Sorry I did not use my usual smiley face because I was told my use of smiley faces could not disguise my sinister nature. Is there an alternative sign I can use?


----------



## ffemtreed

curt8403 said:


> a larger dish is able to reflect more signal back to the windows where the signal needs to be to get a usable signal. they are mainly used in areas where the signal is weak to begin with like Alaska, and Hawaii


So what determines these windows? I am having a hard time understanding how a dish has "windows" in it? Is it the way the LNB is tuned?


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Sorry I did not use my usual smiley face because I was told my use of smiley faces could not disguise my sinister nature. Is there an alternative sign I can use?


Sticking to a discussion of D12 is always a good first step.


----------



## Jeremy W

ffemtreed said:


> I am having a hard time understanding how a dish has "windows" in it?


The "windows" are in the white piece of plastic on the front of the LNB.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Sticking to a discussion of D12 is always a good first step.


I thought I was doing just that. I pointed out the possible confusion when you kept using the number 102.765, after you responded with the addition of 103 for clarification, I swear I read a few follow up posts asking you the 103 questions, I thought our J6Ps finally realized what you were talking about. I don't recall ever coming up with anything off the D12 topic, I did respond to many others' off the topic comment, such as keys in the sky, pee in the shower, conspiracy theories, and that car&#8230;but without exceptions after my responses the off topic comments stopped.

Where did I do wrong?


----------



## Doug Brott

please .. let's get back to honest discussion ..


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Toyota Prius is known for not able to slow down/stop, are you messing with us?





jacmyoung said:


> Where did I do wrong?


Was only referring to the singular Toyota post and the question of "Is there an alternative sign I can use?" ... no issue ... we move on ...


----------



## curt8403

Is it just me, or does D12 seem to be moving at a much faster rate of speed for transfer than normal


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> Not sure of the exact specifics.
> 
> I am reasonably certain that it will be parked by the end of next week, if not sooner.
> 
> Also, reasonably certain that we will see signal at 103 (ca) by/during the week of 5/17/2010, if not sooner "live" will follow that, by 5/31 hopefully, maybe 5/19 or 5/26.


Who will be the first to post seeing a signal at 103 (ca)? Ought to be a contest with prizes.


----------



## raoul5788

curt8403 said:


> Is it just me, or does D12 seem to be moving at a much faster rate of speed for transfer than normal


Sssshhhhhh!!!! Don't say anything, D12 might be listening!


----------



## Sixto

cebbigh said:


> Who will be the first to post seeing a signal at 103 (ca)? Ought to be a contest with prizes.


From experience, it will probably be a weekday, during work hours.

Could be other times, but D10/D11 was during a weekday.


----------



## Athlon646464

Why wouldn't they call it 102.765(ca) rather than 103(ca)?

[/end of lame attempt at humor]


----------



## Jeremy W

Athlon646464 said:


> Why wouldn't they call it 102.765(ca) rather than 103(ca)?


I realize this was a lame attempt at humor, but *none* of DirecTV's satellites are actually at the exact designation the signal screens use.


----------



## HoTat2

ffemtreed said:


> So what determines these windows? I am having a hard time understanding how a dish has "windows" in it? Is it the way the LNB is tuned?


The dish reflects the Ka-band signals from 99 and 103 at an angle to converge at focal points at the mouths of 99 and 103 feed horns positioned just to either side of a larger 101 feed horn in the center. The dimensions of the two adjacent Ka-band feed horns are smaller of course than the 101 as they are tuned to receive the smaller wavelengths of the Ka-band.

If you look closely at your SlimLine dish you will notice that the "white" (for WNC) or "clear" (for the Eagle brand) colored caps for the 99, 101, 103 feed horn assembly is oval shaped.

And that is because it is actually covering the mouths surrounded by scaler feeds of three separate feed horns in line with one another.


----------



## Athlon646464

Jeremy W said:


> I realize this was a lame attempt at humor, but *none* of DirecTV's satellites are actually at the exact designation the signal screens use.


Uh oh :eek2:

Conspiracy theories abound........ :nono2:


----------



## Sixto

As is fairly obvious, the only time we really care about the exact satellite parking location, 102.765° in this case, is when you have hundreds of people tracking the exact status day-to-day.

When we're done here, no one will care much, but certainly important when lots of folks are playing with Orbitron (and other programs).


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> From experience, it will probably be a weekday, during work hours.
> 
> Could be other times, but D10/D11 was during a weekday.


I am sure their work hours are 24/7 because you projected D12 will park on Sunday.


----------



## Carl Spock

curt8403 said:


> Is it just me, or does D12 seem to be moving at a much faster rate of speed for transfer than normal


Sometime tomorrow afternoon D12 should be at 98.6°. That seems about normal to me.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> It will definitely take longer.
> 
> I probably shouldn't even include the location guesstimate, because it's not really accurate as to end date, but figured was fun anyway.
> 
> There will be an adjustment to lower the orbit and (slowly) drift into 102.765.





jacmyoung said:


> I am sure their work hours are 24/7 because you projected D12 will park on Sunday.


Not the case.

Re-check post#1. "The actual final positioning (parking at 102.765° Geostationary) will take place over several days, as the orbit is lowered back and finely tuned to Geostationary."


----------



## DogLover

jacmyoung said:


> I am sure their work hours are 24/7 because you projected D12 will park on Sunday.


I would think that the people responsible for moving and parking the satellite are a different group than those repsonsible for uploading test signals and beginning the process of making the satellite carry channels.


----------



## raoul5788

Carl Spock said:


> Sometime tomorrow afternoon D12 should be at 98.6°. That seems about normal to me.


*GROAN!*


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> Maybe others can comment, but previous discussion has led to conclusion that there's no issue.
> 
> A nicely aligned dish should currently have at least some D10 transponders in the 90's.


Well since I don't have that now, I guess I'll probably being calling for an alignment, but I'll wait till D12 is active just to see what kind of signals I'm getting.


hdtvfan0001 said:


> Mine as of yesterday....averaging 98% strength on 101 and 95% on 103.
> 
> By the way...D12 continues....moving well again today....just passed 95.3....


[drool]

Oh man I'd love those signal strengths!

[/drool]


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> Well since I don't have that now, I guess I'll probably being calling for an alignment, but I'll wait till D12 is active just to see what kind of signals I'm getting.


After D10 launched, needed to have my Dish re-aligned, improved greatly.

No need to wait for D12. D10/D11 are a great reference.


----------



## jacmyoung

DogLover said:


> I would think that the people responsible for moving and parking the satellite are a different group than those repsonsible for uploading test signals and beginning the process of making the satellite carry channels.


But is it true that what we consider the hours, days, months and years, are all specific to Earthly-bound beings? I recall when our earthly beings worked long hours with those Mars Rovers, some of them stopped growing facial hair when they should have, others started to grow facial hair when they should not have. My memory is fuzzy but I recall the reason was because the Rovers on Mars had different hours, days, months and years.

Before I go too far off the topic, let me talk about D12. Assume D12 is in space, therefore not an Earthly-bound being, can we assume it does not conform to our "work hours"? Remember I said, before those sats are shipped out in space, the clocks on them have to be adjusted so they do not run at the same speed as clocks on Earth, else the clocks on the sats and the clocks on Earth will not sync? If I recall it is called General Relativity.

Fascinating stuff you know.


----------



## oldfantom

jacmyoung said:


> ..., before those sats are shipped out in space, the clocks on them have to be adjusted so they do not run at the same speed as clocks on Earth, else the clocks on the sats and the clocks on Earth will not sync? If I recall it is called General Relativity.
> 
> Fascinating stuff you know.


Can anyone show this math? With no basis for the guess, i would think the difference would be less than a second per year. The satellite has a long way to go to approach the speed of light


----------



## Doug Brott

Exactly why would the clock be different? Aren't both the satellite and earth rotating at the same degree change/second? Also, aren't they both rotating round the Sun at the same speed/velocity/fluxcapacity?

And thirdly (or is it fourthly) .. do we care?


----------



## P Smith

cebbigh said:


> Who will be the first to post seeing a signal at 103 (ca)? Ought to be a contest with prizes.


Unfortunately for you, there is a few guys with spectrum analyzers ( or/and PC based PCI card - BLSA) who would have the info BEFORE your receiver will have any blip on the screen ! 
I could post those pictures again for D12, BUT I did reach my limit of uploads volume long time ago. So, check old D10 and D11 threads for first signals.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Indiana627 said:


> Well since I don't have that now, I guess I'll probably being calling for an alignment, but I'll wait till D12 is active just to see what kind of signals I'm getting.
> 
> [drool]
> 
> Oh man I'd love those signal strengths!
> 
> [/drool]





Sixto said:


> After D10 launched, needed to have my Dish re-aligned, improved greatly.
> 
> No need to wait for D12. D10/D11 are a great reference.


My signal levels for 1010 were in the low 90's and 103 low 80's (83 average) for 103 prior to my service call (protection plan) this week. As I stated earlier, I got a call from DirecTV regarding my levels - I did not call them. In any case...moving up to 98 on 1010 and 95 on 103 as averages is a good thing. To get there, they replaced my 5 /12 year old AT-9 "sidecar" Dish, and installed a Slimline 3. The alignment took all of 10 minutes.

As Sixto indicated...if your 103 101 levels are good now....there's no reason to be concerned about D12 - it should be fine.

In the mean time...D12 moves on past the 95.6 mark this afternoon...trekking along at 2 miles per second...


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> aren't they both rotating round the Sun at the same speed/velocity/fluxcapacity?


I believe the fluxcapacity is slightly different.


----------



## smiddy

HD is coming, HD is coming, to a D12 near you!


----------



## jefbal99

smiddy said:


> HD is coming, HD is coming, to a D12 near you!


I thought D12 was an SD IRD


----------



## DodgerKing

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly why would the clock be different? Aren't both the satellite and earth rotating at the same degree change/second? Also, aren't they both rotating round the Sun at the same speed/velocity/fluxcapacity?
> 
> And thirdly (or is it fourthly) .. do we care?


I care. I find it rather fascinating

He and Einstein are correct. This has been proven with other satellites.

The faster one travels the slower time is to them...hence, they travel into the future. This would mean that the clocks on the birds will be slower than those on earth as the satellites are traveling into the future relative to earth time.

Even though rotational distance is the same, linear speed of the satellites is much faster than that of the earth. Remember the satellites have to travel over a larger circumference at the same rotational speed as the earth, meaning they have to travel at a greater linear rate in order to keep up.


----------



## swyman18

> a larger dish is able to reflect more signal back to the windows where the signal needs to be to get a usable signal. they are mainly used in areas where the signal is weak to begin with like Alaska, and Hawaii


Hope I won't have an issue here in Hawaii... the best we could get on 103 is mid to upper 70's, with a couple of transponders in the low 80's.


----------



## JeffBowser

I always assumed satellites didn't have a "clock" per se, but merely output a timing signal from a stunningly accurate atomic clock on board.



DodgerKing said:


> I care. I find it rather fascinating
> 
> He and Einstein are correct. This has been proven with other satellites.
> 
> The faster one travels the slower time is to them...hence, they travel into the future. This would mean that the clocks on the birds will be slower than those on earth as the satellites are traveling into the future relative to earth time.
> 
> Even though rotational distance is the same, linear speed of the satellites is much faster than that of the earth. Remember the satellites have to travel over a larger circumference at the same rotational speed as the earth, meaning they have to travel at a greater linear rate in order to keep up.


----------



## raoul5788

DodgerKing said:


> I care. I find it rather fascinating
> 
> He and Einstein are correct. This has been proven with other satellites.
> 
> Remember the satellites have to travel over a larger circumference at the same rotational speed as the earth, meaning they have to travel at a greater linear rate in order to keep up.


The outside edge of a record is going faster than nearer to the center.


----------



## DodgerKing

JeffBowser said:


> I always assumed satellites didn't have a "clock" per se, but merely output a timing signal from a stunningly accurate atomic clock on board.


I don't know exactly what they use or if all of them use the same thing. I just read about one of the ways they have proven Relativity and time travel (into the future only) is by comparing the times of satellites traveling at thousands of miles/hr to those on earth.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

However, the power consumed is still 1.21GW.


----------



## oldfantom

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly why would the clock be different? Aren't both the satellite and earth rotating at the same degree change/second? Also, aren't they both rotating round the Sun at the same speed/velocity/fluxcapacity?
> 
> And thirdly (or is it fourthly) .. do we care?


OK, my degree was Psychology, but as I understand it... Movement and speed are relative to the position of the observer. Looking down from space along the axis of rotation, neither you or your satellite are stationary. To remain stationary relative to the viewer on the ground, the satellite has to move faster than the Earth bound observer. If that is true then the satellite is closer to the speed of light than the observer. It is like the old experiment of dropping a ball on a train. The person on the train sees it fall straight. The person on the side of the tracks sees the ball move forward.

Do we care, maybe not.

During October, 1971, four cesium atomic beam clocks were flown on regularly scheduled commercial jet flights around the world twice, once eastward and once westward, to test Einstein's theory of relativity with macroscopic clocks. From the actual flight paths of each trip, the theory predicted that the flying clocks, compared with reference clocks at the U.S. Naval Observatory, should have lost 40+/-23 nanoseconds during the eastward trip and should have gained 275+/-21 nanoseconds during the westward trip ... Relative to the atomic time scale of the U.S. Naval Observatory, the flying clocks lost 59+/-10 nanoseconds during the eastward trip and gained 273+/-7 nanosecond during the westward trip, where the errors are the corresponding standard deviations. These results provide an unambiguous empirical resolution of the famous clock "paradox" with macroscopic clocks."


----------



## DodgerKing

raoul5788 said:


> The outside edge of a record is going faster than nearer to the center.


Yep. This is also how gears work. If this was not so, then one would not be able to change gears, and rotational speed, on their bikes.

Also, time on the moon (using earth time) is relatively slower than that on earth, thus someone living on the moon can actually live longer than if they lived on earth (by only a few seconds though)


----------



## rorkin

Looks like another extension is imminent unless the drift ends tomorrow 


Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rorkin said:


> Looks like another extension is imminent unless the drift ends tomorrow
> 
> Earth Station (2) Communication was approved 3/8/2010 to 4/6/2010.
> Then extended 4/7/2010 to 5/7/2010.
> May also still need another request for Drift past 5/7/2010 if necessary.


That's to commence the drift - not complete it.

They have until virtually the end of the month to get it in place at 102.765.


----------



## jacmyoung

JeffBowser said:


> I always assumed satellites didn't have a "clock" per se, but merely output a timing signal from a stunningly accurate atomic clock on board.


You have just managed to say in one sentence that you did not think there was a clock on board but then there was indeed a clock on board.

Of course we should care about this subject, I thought part of this thread is to get us J6Ps to be riled up to want to know about subjects that we cannot possibly grasp, ever, such as D12 the spacecraft.

I do like whoever is in your avatar, very much.


----------



## shollowa74

If I start complaining/theorizing about the lack of progress and TLEs for D14, does that get me banned? 

Love this forum and everyone's passion for it. I wish I was smarter I could decipher some of the information. Keep up the good work and keep the educational information flowing.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's to commence the drift - not complete it.


The FCC doesn't care about commencing or ending the drift, they're only concerned about the communication during the drift. That STA will need to be extended to allow the Earth station to communicate with the satellite during the drift. The only one that's been extended so far was the one allowing communications from D12.


----------



## jilardi2

jacmyoung said:


> You have just managed to say in one sentence that you did not think there was a clock on board but then there was indeed a clock on board.
> 
> Of course we should care about this subject, I thought part of this thread is to get us J6Ps to be riled up to want to know about subjects that we cannot possibly grasp, ever, such as D12 the spacecraft.
> 
> I do like whoever is in your avatar, very much.


thats my wife in his avatar, damn it


----------



## LameLefty

95.83º and creeping west . . .


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Thank you, LameLefty, for reeling things back in yet again.


----------



## jacmyoung

DodgerKing said:


> ...Also, time on the moon (using earth time) is relatively slower than that on earth, thus someone living on the moon can actually live longer than if they lived on earth (by only a few seconds though)


Of course he will die a painful death much sooner than you and me due to bone loss, assume he has plenty of food, air, shelter on the Moon, and constant entertainment from reading this thread.

But D12? You lucky dog!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The time discussion deserves to be had somewhere else. Feel free to open something up in "the OT" for that... in the meantime, let's not discuss it here. 

And yes that is an official request. Thank you.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> From experience, it will probably be a weekday, during work hours.
> 
> Could be other times, but D10/D11 was during a weekday.


My luck, 5/17 I come out of retirement and go back to work.


----------



## CuriousG

Stuart Sweet said:


> However, the power consumed is still 1.21GW.


That's heavy.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Forgive my stupidity. :wizardhat Will we see the 103 (ca) signal strength slowly rise as D12 approaches 102.765°, or does it have to be fully parked at 102.765° before they flip the switch?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hutchinshouse said:


> Forgive my stupidity. :wizardhat Will we see the 103 (ca) signal strength slowly rise as D12 approaches 102.765°, or does it have to be fully parked at 102.765° before they flip the switch?


Actually a good and interesting question.

If history serves any lessons...it will be parked first, than activated.


----------



## dreadlk

Fully parked then tested before you will see any signal


----------



## dcowboy7

When the new sat is active & they add most of those 30 channels they mentioned why not also add 40+ more ppvs too to bring the total channels to 70 ? 

This way they get $$ use out of the transponders instead of just sitting empty.

Then when they do add more "real' channels they can just take away the proportional amount of ppvs.

Whats wrong with that scenario ?


----------



## rorkin

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's to commence the drift - not complete it.
> 
> They have until virtually the end of the month to get it in place at 102.765.


This is for the Earth station not the drift itself

There seems to be a difference of opinion here.. Perhaps Sixto knows the answer


----------



## Hutchinshouse

dreadlk said:


> Fully parked then tested before you will see any signal


Ok, I guess I'll stop checking signal strengths 50 times a day. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rorkin said:


> This is for the Earth station not the drift itself
> 
> There seems to be a difference of opinion here.. Perhaps Sixto knows the answer


Good point - I beleive you are correct - it was actually the deadline for the additional package test window.

All moot now - D12 is well on its path to its home at 102.765...trekking still at 2 miles per second and at 95.96 right now....woo hoo... 


Hutchinshouse said:


> Ok, I guess I'll stop checking signal strengths 50 times a day. :lol:


Yeah...a little early still for that fun.


----------



## Alan Gordon

dcowboy7 said:


> When the new sat is active & they add most of those 30 channels they mentioned why not also add 40+ more ppvs too to bring the total channels to 70 ?
> 
> This way they get $$ use out of the transponders instead of just sitting empty.
> 
> Then when they do add more "real' channels they can just take away the proportional amount of ppvs.
> 
> Whats wrong with that scenario ?


Given the TEST data shown on D10 (???) of other channels not currently announced, DirecTV may start uplinking those channels to test.

I do expect to see a healthy amount of PPV channels though. 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

dreadlk said:


> Fully parked then tested before you will see any signal


Exactly.


----------



## Sixto

rorkin said:


> This is for the Earth station not the drift itself
> 
> There seems to be a difference of opinion here.. Perhaps Sixto knows the answer


I did expect an Earth Station extension, but maybe not needed with the close proximity to reaching the final location.


----------



## cebbigh

P Smith said:


> Unfortunately for you, there is a few guys with spectrum analyzers ( or/and PC based PCI card - BLSA) who would have the info BEFORE your receiver will have any blip on the screen !
> I could post those pictures again for D12, BUT I did reach my limit of uploads volume long time ago. So, check old D10 and D11 threads for first signals.


Informative. After parking we'll see numbers randomly pop up and then disappear on single tp's.

The question I asked was in jest. But I can see why no prizes will be rewarded. So I propose we all just toast D12 with something appropriate when we see signal.


----------



## Brent04

Sixto said:


> I did expect an Earth Station extension, but maybe not needed with the close proximity to reaching the final location.


Could that be why D12 is drifting so fast, DirecTV was trying to get it there close to the 5/7 deadline so it wouldn't have to be extended?


----------



## Indiana627

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My signal levels for 1010 were in the low 90's and 103 low 80's (83 average) for 103 prior to my service call (protection plan) this week. As I stated earlier, I got a call from DirecTV regarding my levels - I did not call them. In any case...moving up to 98 on 1010 and 95 on 103 as averages is a good thing. To get there, they replaced my 5 /12 year old AT-9 "sidecar" Dish, and installed a Slimline 3. The alignment took all of 10 minutes.


Sounds like your 103 were the same (low 80s) as I currently have. I wish D* would call me for an alignment, though it looks like you pay for the protection plan whereas I don't, so maybe that's why they called you and are not calling me even though I have same signal strength. I too think upgrading from my Slimline 5 to a Slimline 3 would be beneficial.

I know a service call is around $79 (if memory serves me), but would there be any additional cost to have them replace the Slimline 5 LNB with the Slimline 3 LNB? Would I just need to make sure to mention that I wanted that done on the phone so that the tech had one on his truck?


----------



## Sixto

Brent04 said:


> Could that be why D12 is drifting so fast, DirecTV was trying to get it there close to the 5/7 deadline so it wouldn't have to be extended?


Nah, extension is easy (if needed).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Here's kind of a neat current diagram of where things are....just to give you an idea in terms of spacing...

D10 (102.78) is on the left, D11 (99.12) in the middle....and on the right is D12 (circled in red at 96.3) at this time headed to be near D10 at its home of 102.76...note the right to left direction to reach its final destination.

The Sat Family is getting together closer all the time.


----------



## colts19

Indiana627 said:


> Sounds like your 103 were the same (low 80s) as I currently have. I wish D* would call me for an alignment, though it looks like you pay for the protection plan whereas I don't, so maybe that's why they called you and are not calling me even though I have same signal strength. I too think upgrading from my Slimline 5 to a Slimline 3 would be beneficial.
> 
> I know a service call is around $79 (if memory serves me), but would there be any additional cost to have them replace the Slimline 5 LNB with the Slimline 3 LNB? Would I just need to make sure to mention that I wanted that done on the phone so that the tech had one on his truck?


I don't have the protection plan, and they called me about low signals. They have reduced the cost of the svrs call to $59. Not sure about changing the dish.


----------



## cdhinch

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly why would the clock be different? Aren't both the satellite and earth rotating at the same degree change/second? Also, aren't they both rotating round the Sun at the same speed/velocity/fluxcapacity?
> 
> And thirdly (or is it fourthly) .. do we care?


From Einstein's theory of general relativity: Time goes more slowly in higher gravitational fields. This is called gravitational time dilation.


----------



## Billzebub

Carl Spock said:


> Sometime tomorrow afternoon D12 should be at 98.6°. That seems about normal to me.


Hey, 98.6 it's good to have you back again, Hey 98.6 your lovin is the medicine that saved me


----------



## raoul5788

Billzebub said:


> Hey, 98.6 it's good to have you back again, Hey 98.6 your lovin is the medicine that saved me


You must be very old!


----------



## Billzebub

raoul5788 said:


> You must be very old!


Aint gonna lie, yes I am


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cdhinch said:


> From Einstein's theory of general relativity: Time goes more slowly in higher gravitational fields. This is called gravitational time dilation.


I think the issue would be velocity and lower gravity field.

Mike


----------



## sdirv

Billzebub said:


> Aint gonna lie, yes I am


Well I'm not, and I bought that record when it came out.......


----------



## raoul5788

sdirv said:


> Well I'm not, and I bought that record when it came out.......


That makes you old, too! C'mon, admit it! Hey, I was 13 when it came out. That makes me old, too! Well, sort of.


----------



## jdspencer

So once D12 is operational with all of the new national HD channels, when might we expect to see some local HD? Any ideas/speculation as to the DMA schedule?


----------



## P Smith

You guys should go to chat room - why post your memoir here ?


----------



## P Smith

jdspencer said:


> So once D12 is operational with all of the new national HD channels, when might we expect to see some local HD? Any ideas/speculation as to the DMA schedule?


Right away after they will up-linked - watch Sixto's other tread.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Right away after they will up-linked - watch Sixto's other tread.


Only tracking the national ... he's asking LiL ...


----------



## keystonejoe

Indiana627 said:


> Sounds like your 103 were the same (low 80s) as I currently have. I wish D* would call me for an alignment, though it looks like you pay for the protection plan whereas I don't, so maybe that's why they called you and are not calling me even though I have same signal strength. I too think upgrading from my Slimline 5 to a Slimline 3 would be beneficial.
> 
> I know a service call is around $79 (if memory serves me), but would there be any additional cost to have them replace the Slimline 5 LNB with the Slimline 3 LNB? Would I just need to make sure to mention that I wanted that done on the phone so that the tech had one on his truck?


I was forced to upgrade from a 5 to a 3 because my neighbor's trees were in the way blocking 119 and I kept losing my guide information. It only cost me about $40 ($30 + $10 shipping) to buy the 3 LNB and it took me about 10 minutes to swap it out from the 5. I'd recommend that way if you are thinking about upgrading.

Sixto - as it's been said many times before -- thanks for everything you do. I've been lurking for over a month and decided to jump in. I'm so excited and I just can't hide it -- bad joke. If you're ever in my neck of the woods, let me know and I'll buy you a beer.

My wife has been making fun of me for waiting for D12 for a long time, I guess I shouldn't have told her what I do on the computer. I'm glad it's on the move!


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Only tracking the national ... he's asking LiL ...


Oh, that's why the reports so short. 

Then do chase gct/doctor j threads.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jdspencer said:


> So once D12 is operational with all of the new national HD channels, when might we expect to see some local HD? Any ideas/speculation as to the DMA schedule?


Three markets announced for June.

~Alan


----------



## jdspencer

That's great, but I wondered if anyone knew the future beyond that list.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jdspencer said:


> So once D12 is operational with all of the new national HD channels, when might we expect to see some local HD? Any ideas/speculation as to the DMA schedule?





Alan Gordon said:


> Three markets announced for June.





jdspencer said:


> That's great, but I wondered if anyone knew the future beyond that list.


Well, hopefully there are some coming in July!  

As for future markets, I know of two Georgia DMAs coming to DirecTV, but other than that, I can't help. Since it's been a month (today) since the June announcements were made, hopefully more announcements will be made shortly... possibly once D12 is parked (perhaps tested).

~Alan


----------



## hidefman

keystonejoe said:


> I was forced to upgrade from a 5 to a 3 because my neighbor's trees were in the way blocking 119 and I kept losing my guide information. It only cost me about $40 ($30 + $10 shipping) to buy the 3 LNB and it took me about 10 minutes to swap it out from the 5. I'd recommend that way if you are thinking about upgrading.
> 
> Sixto - as it's been said many times before -- thanks for everything you do. I've been lurking for over a month and decided to jump in. I'm so excited and I just can't hide it -- bad joke. If you're ever in my neck of the woods, let me know and I'll buy you a beer.
> 
> My wife has been making fun of me for waiting for D12 for a long time, I guess I shouldn't have told her what I do on the computer. I'm glad it's on the move!


Congrats on your first post! And welcome to the active side of DBSTalk!


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> I think the issue would be velocity and lower gravity field.
> 
> Mike


I don't know if time v. gravitational force has been observed, but time v. speed has.


----------



## hyde76

dod1450 said:


> I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


I looked at all the answers you got on your question and really, none of them made any sense. Everyone said to look at the beginning of the thread. While that is true, there you will find what D12 will be doing, lots of new HD, I think you were actually referring to E14, which is a replacement but that's on the dish network side and you're in the DTV world over here. Make more sense now? There's lots of excitement for the new HD D12 will bring, 216+ pages of it with more than 8600 posts. On the E14 side, last time I looked, the thread was at 6 pages with not a lot of user community excitement. D12 is most definitely not a replacement for anything. E14 is replacing an older bird.

See here http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174471 for more info on E14.


----------



## mdavej

jacmyoung said:


> I don't know if time v. gravitational force has been observed, but time v. speed has.


It's been observed that an atomic clock on an airplane will run faster than one on the ground due to this effect. Black holes have some serious gravitational time dilation. Time stops completely at the event horizon from the observer's point of view, much like time stopped for D12 the month of April


----------



## cebbigh

mdavej said:


> It's been observed that an atomic clock on an airplane will run faster than one on the ground due to this effect. Black holes have some serious gravitational time dilation. Time stops completely at the event horizon from the observer's point of view, much like time stopped for D12 the month of April


Along those lines: Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking episode "Time Travel" (first aired 4/25/10) observes much the same. The clocks on GPS satellites have to be adjusted because they run slightly faster than clocks on the ground. If they were not adjusted their measurements would be off by 6 miles each day. Nothing wrong with the clocks. Proof that Einstein was correct about gravity/time. There are two upcoming rebroadcasts on 5/17 on channel 278 DSCHD.

Note: Sorry for wandering farther off D12 discussion. But it is at least about satellites.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dod1450 said:


> I have not found any information on what the new bird will provide other then a replacement? Can someone expand on this?


I assume you mean D12. It will provide expanded capacity for new HD channels.

Here is a thread on some of what's coming. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952

Mike


----------



## syphix

Waking up this morning at 97.5299!


----------



## Avder

mdavej said:


> It's been observed that an atomic clock on an airplane will run faster than one on the ground due to this effect. Black holes have some serious gravitational time dilation. Time stops completely at the event horizon from the observer's point of view, much like time stopped for D12 the month of April


You've got this reversed. The clock on the plane ran slower than the one moved via ground transport because time moves slower as your speed increases.


----------



## jefbal99

New TLE 174



Code:


1 36131U 09075A   10127.24395789 -.00000024  00000-0  10000-3 0  1749
2 36131 000.0943 063.5869 0004813 179.4220 332.8755 00.99433466  1378


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-07-2010 05:51:17
Orbit # at Epoch	137
Inclination		0.094
RA of A. Node		63.587
Eccentricity		0.0004813
Argument of Perigee	179.422
Revs per day		0.99433466
Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 401 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 003 x 36 044 km
Element number / age	174 / 0 day(s)

Lon			[B][SIZE="4"]96.9388° W[/SIZE][/B]
Lat			0.0303° N
Alt (km)		36 004.510

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  [B]96.94°W[/B]  0.03°N  0.09°
173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°
170 04-29 10:05 35,777 x 35,796     19 +24.24H 121.40D  76.03°W  0.06°S  0.09°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## smiddy

mdavej said:


> It's been observed that an atomic clock on an airplane will run faster than one on the ground due to this effect. Black holes have some serious gravitational time dilation. Time stops completely at the event horizon from the observer's point of view, much like time stopped for D12 the month of April





Avder said:


> You've got this reversed. The clock on the plane ran slower than the one moved via ground transport because time moves slower as your speed increases.


Agreed, the clocks of all satellites run slower than they do on earth. They essentially time travel, I think, on the order of 6 seconds per year. Of course the satellites adjust for this.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Are we still on track to drop anchor on Monday?


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto, are we going to see anymore estimating? I like those


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> Are we still on track to drop anchor on Monday?


Experience tells us that it will take several days to park and fine tune the orbit. End of next week to play it safe. Could be sooner.


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Sixto, are we going to see anymore estimating? I like those


We're now real close. The last several days are hard to predict, but the GREAT news is that we got 22° in a week.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Experience tells us that it will take several days to park and fine tune the orbit. End of next week to play it safe. Could be sooner.


Thanks! So getting new HD on the 19th or 20th would be a reasonable assumption?

Parked by next Friday, with several days to test. I'm ready!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Oh, I didn't tell you guys...

Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


----------



## trdrjeff

:joy:


----------



## jacmyoung

mdavej said:


> It's been observed that an atomic clock on an airplane will run faster than one on the ground due to this effect. Black holes have some serious gravitational time dilation. Time stops completely at the event horizon from the observer's point of view, much like time stopped for D12 the month of April


I thouhgt the plane experiment supported the time v. speed theory, not time v. gravitational force theory? The black hole theory has not been supported by any experiment, so it remains a theory?

Time v. speed is a theory that has already been proven through observations.

On further review, it is indeed the gravitational forces at play here. The sats have a much less gravitational pull from the Earth than us on the Earth surface, this is in fact called General Relativity. Time slows down at a higher speed is called Special Relativity, which assumes two observers are far far away from any gravitational forces, which is not the case with D12 and our posters here. Although I don't mind if we can all imagine that we (including D12) are far far away from any gravitational forces. I am working on this, I have yet to find out how many beers does it take to get there.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, I didn't tell you guys...
> 
> Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


I'm in deep trouble. :lol:

I'll be changing mine real soon. Perhaps this weekend.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, I didn't tell you guys...
> 
> Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


Damn it! The Travel Channel HD is about the only HD channel I want for now, can you force him to change his avatar? Not this weekend but now!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I asked you guys nicely to take the discussion of time and relativity to another thread. Now I'm asking again, and the next time there will be infractions, regardless of your status here at DBSTalk.


----------



## afulkerson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, I didn't tell you guys...
> 
> Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


How about less than thirty days????


----------



## smiddy

4.76°-ish to go, go Big D, go!


----------



## mhayes70

Were getting close!!  I can't wait until this baby is lit up and giving us more HD. Thanks Sixto and Left for getting us all the info.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D12 is just about at the 98 location right now...continuing to its final destination at 102.765....smooth sailing at 2 miles per second now for several days!

Soon...it will approach and pass up its brother D11 (at 99) later today.

This is all so interesting - Sixto has now prompted several of us to become sat tracking addicts. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> D12 is just about at the 98 location right now...continuing to its final destination at 102.765....smooth sailing at 2 miles per second now for several days!
> 
> Soon...it will approach and pass up its brother D11 (at 99) later today.
> 
> This is all so interesting - Sixto has now prompted several of us to become sat tracking addicts. :lol:


Addicts is such a harsh word...can we say something like aficionados instead?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smiddy said:


> Addicts is such a harsh word...can we say something like aficionados instead?


Yes, we are DirecTV aficionados...all things DirecTV, including the satellites. 

Almost there baby! 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

I prefer enthusiasts ..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> I prefer enthusiasts ..


Yes, we are DirecTV enthusiasts...all things DirecTV, including the satellites. 

Almost there baby! 

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Or the words my friends use when they whisper behind my back... "satellite geek."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I prefer enthusiasts ..


OK - let's run (or fly) with that.


----------



## Sixto

It is interesting that the TLEs and rapid movement has continued.

At some point soon, would expect the change in orbit, but that 22° went by quick.


----------



## jerrylove56

Quick question, Sixto, why was D12's testing orbit so far from its finally orbital slot?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

How will they stop D12 at the appropriate longitude? Does it require firing a rocket?


----------



## Carl Spock

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, I didn't tell you guys...
> 
> Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


I'm changing my avatar to QVC HD today!



wilbur_the_goose said:


> How will they stop D12 at the appropriate longitude? Does it require firing a rocket?


I'm all over that.


----------



## Doug Brott

jerrylove56 said:


> Quick question, Sixto, why was D12's testing orbit so far from its finally orbital slot?


I've shown my true lack of rocket science knowledge in this thread :lol:, but my guess is that's a spot that worked for DIRECTV to "see" the sat and it had some available space that wouldn't interfere with real sats in space ..

Or heck, maybe they just wanted to block the view of a Russian spy sat for a few weeks


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> It is interesting that the TLEs and rapid movement has continued.
> 
> At some point soon, would expect the change in orbit, but that 22° went by quick.


Turning out to be worth the long wait now that it's underway. Like riding in a convertible with the top down, solar winds whipping through your hair under a blanket of stars on your way to a date with destiny.


----------



## P Smith

Because someone at DTV select THE slot fo testing D12 by numerous parameters what we never will knows !



jerrylove56 said:


> Quick question, Sixto, why was D12's testing orbit so far from its finally orbital slot?


----------



## bobnielsen

wilbur_the_goose said:


> How will they stop D12 at the appropriate longitude? Does it require firing a rocket?


They will use the XIPS thruster, as they did to get it moving.


----------



## sigma1914

Doug Brott said:


> I've shown my true lack of rocket science knowledge in this thread :lol:, but my guess is that's a spot that worked for DIRECTV to "see" the sat and it had some available space that wouldn't interfere with real sats in space ..
> 
> Or heck, maybe they just wanted to block the view of a Russian spy sat for a few weeks


I figured it was so EaglePC could not see it. :lol:


----------



## freerein100

Did anyone every check to see how fast other 702 sats were moved over similar distances.


----------



## Sixto

jerrylove56 said:


> Quick question, Sixto, why was D12's testing orbit so far from its finally orbital slot?





Doug Brott said:


> ... but my guess is that's a spot that worked for DIRECTV to "see" the sat and it had some available space that wouldn't interfere with real sats in space ...


What he said.


----------



## smiddy

To quote someone incredible, "We'll there when we get there!"


----------



## HoTat2

Hey a question;

Just curious assuming one knows of course, that since D10 and 12 (don't know about SP1) will use the same uplink (and downlink) frequencies for their B-band spotbeam programming and TT&C operations, how will they avoid co-channel interference?

Do those big 9 meter Ka band transmission dishes DirecTV uses at their uplink stations have the resolving power to actually point to only one of the satellites at a time grouped at 103 nom. even though they're separated by only a few tenths of a degree at the Clarke belt?


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> To quote someone incredible, "We'll there when we get there!"


To correct Smiddy (Which is almost never needed) We'll Get There when we get there!


----------



## raoul5788

cebbigh said:


> Turning out to be worth the long wait now that it's underway. Like riding in a convertible with the top down, solar winds whipping through your hair under a blanket of stars on your way to a date with destiny.


You know a woman by the name of Destiny?


----------



## jdspencer

I've seen several references to the speed of the sat being 2 miles/s.

But, this real time tracking site http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
lists the speed as 0.02 miles/s. What am I missing? 
I'm going to assume that it's orbit speed versus ground speed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jdspencer said:


> I've seen several references to the speed of the sat being 2 miles/s.
> 
> But, this real time tracking site http://www.n2yo.com/?s=36131
> lists the speed as 0.02 miles/s. What am I missing?
> I'm going to assume that it's orbit speed versus ground speed.


*0.02* miles/s is the correct speed - you are not missing anything. We are missing an eye exam appointment.


----------



## GoPokes43

Sixto said:


> It is interesting that the TLEs and rapid movement has continued.
> 
> At some point soon, would expect the change in orbit, but that 22° went by quick.


Maybe there's a thruster malfunction.  

As for parking it, since it needs to go past the other two birds at 103, it would seem they may not want to come in with a "low landing", thereby risking a bump to the one of the others. So, do they essentially let it go past its slot slightly and bring it back into place? Or, is it not really an issue if Boeing/D* have precise location information on all three?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> It is interesting that the TLEs and rapid movement has continued.
> 
> At some point soon, would expect the change in orbit, but that 22° went by quick.





GoPokes43 said:


> Maybe there's a thruster malfunction.


AAGHH!!! It's SpaceWay-1 all over again!   

~Alan


----------



## Ernie

jerrylove56 said:


> Quick question, Sixto, why was D12's testing orbit so far from its finally orbital slot?


My take is that since the BSS package transmits on the same frequencies that other satellites receive on, the interference possibilities are higher than other satellites. If the spot-beams antennas for BSS failed to deploy properly, there is the possibility of off-axis radiation (engineering speak for not going where you expect it to) which could interfere with nearby satellites. The guys at 101 might just be too close for safe testing.

Another possibility it that the tight station-keeping necessary to be safe in the cluster of satellites at 103 was incompatible with the maneuvers necessary to test the spot-beams. That brings up the possibility that even though the bird is moving rapidly now toward 103, getting it into its 20 mile wide slot will take multiple XIPS firings over several days (because the opportunities for some firings come once every 24 hours). So, all the people that got impatient about the start of drift can do it all over again as the bird inches into position.

Ernie


----------



## Avder

So when can we expect to start seeing live transponders from D12 in our signal strength screens?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Avder said:


> So when can we expect to start seeing live transponders from D12 in our signal strength screens?


That question has been asked here multiple times on the past few pages...but in short...

It needs to park first, be internally tested, and then they'll likely have some transponders "appear" as they complete their testing right before they start activating some new content.


----------



## tkrandall

Daddy, how many more miles?


----------



## cebbigh

raoul5788 said:


> You know a woman by the name of Destiny?


Ahh, Destiny


----------



## cebbigh

Avder said:


> So when can we expect to start seeing live transponders from D12 in our signal strength screens?


This gets you into the ballpark of the D11 thread give or take a few pages:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123236&highlight=d11+signal&page=190

It will likely follow the same general pattern for D12. The first thing we'll see (for those of us who prefer watching signal strength meters to actual programs) is temporary numbers other than 0 appearing on the transponders for 103 (ca). But like hdtvfan0001 said they need to park and test it first.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Some other interesting info....as D12 (headed to 102.765) passes D11 at 99 later today - D12 is located about 148 miles higher in altitude than D11.

So any of those doomsday collision theories are a waste of time as D12 contiues forward to its final location.


----------



## bills

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some other interesting info....as D12 (headed to 102.765) passes D11 at 99 later today - D12 is located about 148 miles higher in altitude than D11.
> 
> So any of those doomsday collision theories are a waste of time as D12 contiues forward to its final location.


i hope is dosen't hit stargate's destiny on it's way to the end of the galexy....:lol:


----------



## curt8403

oh dear, the D12 with the solar panels fully retracted, could possibly fit through a stargate, and then were would we be????:scratch::goofygrin


----------



## ATARI

Everything is normal with D12 at 98.6 degrees.


----------



## smiddy

curt8403 said:


> To correct Smiddy (Which is almost never needed) We'll Get There when we get there!


 Whoops, you're right...I must have been distracted or something.


----------



## dcowboy7

raoul5788 said:


> You know a woman by the name of Destiny?


Every stripclub has to have a dancer named Destiny.

I think its like a rule or something.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> It is interesting that the TLEs and rapid movement has continued.
> 
> At some point soon, would expect the change in orbit, but that 22° went by quick.


Likely that it will occur right after it passes 99 or maybe already has? Got to happen sometime soon.


----------



## Sixto

cebbigh said:


> Likely that it will occur right after it passes 99 or maybe already has? Got to happen sometime soon.


Yep, was wondering if at 99 or 101, not sure how much distance it's needs for the lowering of the orbit.


----------



## Hdhead

drift is nominal


----------



## alnielsen

Stuart Sweet said:


> Oh, I didn't tell you guys...
> 
> Apparently the word from El Segundo is, if you've been using an avatar of any HD channel for more than 30 days, you won't get that channel when it goes live. Copyright infringements or something.


Does this mean that I have to give up using Enzyte?


----------



## Mavrick

tkrandall said:


> Daddy, how many more miles?


Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?


----------



## Mavrick

D12s theme song?


----------



## Sixto

And now we have the answer ... 

*Big news *(5/7/2010):"DirecTV 10 is currently operating at the 102.815° orbital location. As DirecTV has previously informed the Commission, that satellite suffered a post launch anomaly that has limited the capacity available in certain local markets. DirecTV believes that it can ameliorate this condition, but will need to discontinue commercial service from the satellite and relocate it slightly so that it is not within the cluster of it's other operational satellites. Accordingly, DirecTV intends to move DirecTV 10 to the 102.6° position to conduct the restorative procedure. During this migration, DirecTV 10 will continue to provide service to subscribers. However, over the course of this migration, DirecTV intends to transfer all traffic from DirecTV 10 to DirecTV 12, DirecTV's newest sateliite which has just completed in-orbit testing and is expected to arive at the nominal 103° location on or about May 11, 2010. At the conclusion of the STA period, the satellite will be in a position for the corrective procedure to be attempted."

http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
GREAT news in the long term.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> And now we have the answer ...
> 
> *Big news *(5/7/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
> GREAT news in the long term.


Now isn't that interesting?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Now isn't that interesting?


Very interesting and great news.

They send up one satellite (D12), and they get one plus a much better 2nd (D10)!

Superb.


----------



## Mavrick

Sixto said:


> And now we have the answer ...
> 
> *Big news *(5/7/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
> GREAT news in the long term.


Did not see that one coming!


----------



## ATARI

Time to find and restickie the D10 thread


----------



## Jason Whiddon

Can someone break it down for me? I'd been a dish sub for awhile and don't know jack about the D10 they are discussing.


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto said:


> And now we have the answer ...
> 
> *Big news *(5/7/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
> GREAT news in the long term.


This sort of explains why not 40 gazillion channels immediately. If they are using D12 to handle D10s traffic during repairs, they could not fit it all.

If they get it fixed, more better for everyone!


----------



## Sixto

tonyd79 said:


> This sort of explains why not 40 gazillion channels immediately. If they are using D12 to handle D10s traffic during repairs, they could not fit it all.
> 
> If they get it fixed, more better for everyone!


Exactly!


----------



## trdrjeff

Wow! I'll go ahead and rush into _ass_uming the extry testing may have lead to this possibility 

The word of the day is _ameliorate_ kids


----------



## SuperZ06

Sixto said:


> And now we have the answer ...
> 
> *Big news *(5/7/2010):http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=815158​
> GREAT news in the long term.


*In theory, if D* were able to fix D10, how much more capacity would there be ?
A possibility of even more channels than expected. 

*


----------



## tonyd79

trdrjeff said:


> Wow! I'll go ahead and rush into _ass_uming the extry testing may have lead to this possibility
> 
> The word of the day is _ameliorate_ kids


I hope amelioration is anon!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

trdrjeff said:


> The word of the day is _ameliorate_ kids


From the Latin _melior_ meaning "better."


----------



## tonyd79

SuperZ06 said:


> *In theory, if D* were able to fix D10, how much more capacity would there be ?
> A possibility of even more channels than expected.
> 
> *


IIRC, the problem was with spot beams not CONUS.


----------



## Sixto

trdrjeff said:


> Wow! I'll go ahead and rush into assuming the extra testing may have lead to this possibility
> 
> The word of the day is _ameliorate_ kids


Ding. Ding. Ding!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tonyd79 said:


> IIRC, the problem was with spot beams not CONUS.


That is correct.


----------



## trdrjeff

Time to revisit the SixtoReport: D10 tracking thread w00t!


----------



## Beerstalker

So it sounds like D12 should be in place around May 11th. Once in place they will start moving D10 to 102.6. Once D10 is at 102.6 they will move all of it's programming over to D12. Once all it's programming is coming off of D12 they are going to try sending up some commands to D10 to try to fix it's broken transponders. If that works they will move D10 back into it's original location and then start adding/rearranging channels.

If they get D10 fixed maybe they will be able to have 100% local channel coverage? (D12 was going to supposedly allow 95% coverage)


----------



## SuperZ06

tonyd79 said:


> IIRC, the problem was with spot beams not CONUS.


*Thanks for the quick reply.*


----------



## Sixto

Will send out the new news notification once I get the rest of the transcript entered.


----------



## LameLefty

tonyd79 said:


> IIRC, the problem was with spot beams not CONUS.


Yes.

So if D10 can be successfully _ameliorated_ (there's a nice SAT Word for ya'!), perhaps even more locals can be added, and/or additional channels added in existing DMAs.


----------



## futureformercsr

Do we know enough about problems with D10 to guess how they will go about fixing them by moving the bird a few miles away? I guess that extra testing at 76 was well worth it. 

On a side note, I've been lurking in this thread for awhile and want to thank everyone for the hours of entertainment and information that I've picked up along the way.


----------



## Carl Spock

All sorts of stuff in that announcement, including these two statements:

1 - D12 will arrive at 103° on or about May 11th.
2 - It will go operational almost immediately, taking over D10's load shortly after May 14th.


----------



## trdrjeff

Beerstalker said:


> So it sounds like D12 should be in place around May 11th. Once in place they will start moving D10 to 102.6. Once D10 is at 102.6 they will move all of it's programming over to D12. Once all it's programming is coming off of D12 they are going to try sending up some commands to D10 to try to fix it's broken transponders. If that works they will move D10 back into it's original location and then start adding/rearranging channels.
> 
> If they get D10 fixed maybe they will be able to have 100% local channel coverage? (D12 was going to supposedly allow 95% coverage)


I have to wonder though how they are going to launch extry channels if they are just swapping out D12 for D10 short term


----------



## bobnielsen

Ameliorate away! :joy:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, they probably have enough temporary capacity for the channels they plan on launching right away.


----------



## trdrjeff

yeah, I figured they could use NFL-ST BW short term though they seem to have been apprehensive to do so


----------



## Sixto

Remember, D12 has two more national transponders then D10.

This is very exciting news, and look forward to see them fully load up D12 very soon.


----------



## Carl Spock

> D10 is on Schedule, and will be Ameliorated


Wonderful signature, trdrjeff! :lol: Quickly done, too!

So I want to know: who among you "insiders" knew about this already?


----------



## ATARI

Getting the festivus pole down from the attic this weekend for sure!


----------



## trdrjeff

It's like Festivus Eve and you get to open one package before the big day


----------



## Rob

Beerstalker said:


> So it sounds like D12 should be in place around May 11th. Once in place they will start moving D10 to 102.6. *Once D10 is at 102.6 they will move all of it's programming over to D12*. Once all it's programming is coming off of D12 they are going to try sending up some commands to D10 to try to fix it's broken transponders. If that works they will move D10 back into it's original location and then start adding/rearranging channels.
> 
> If they get D10 fixed maybe they will be able to have 100% local channel coverage? (D12 was going to supposedly allow 95% coverage)


My guess is they will move all of D10's programming to D12 *before* they move D10 to 102.6.


----------



## Hdhead

So with 2 more transponders on D12 we could expect maybe 10 new HD channels in the short term. And many more once D10 is fixed? Am I reading this right?


----------



## Old Guy

"DirecTV believes that it can ameliorate this condition"

I've never heard the word 'ameliorate' before, nor could I pronounce it.

And what kind of condition is it?

(In a Craig Ferguson voice)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hdhead said:


> So with 2 more transponders on D12 we could expect maybe 10 new HD channels in the short term. And many more once D10 is fixed? Am I reading this right?


Sorta kinda.

The number of new channels will be limited to about that number to start in May....but likely, we'll see more rolled out in June and July. I suspect that has pretty much been the plan all along.

Launching all 30 announced channels at one time didn't seem like anything under consideration in the first place.


----------



## rorkin

HUH ? ???
SO how will this affect new channel launch ??


----------



## Sixto

There will be a new D10 thread shortly.


----------



## Jeremy W

Well I guess my interpretation of "starting in May" was incorrect. There is no way they can launch all of the channels they announced with just D11 and D12. They'll have to wait until D10 is back in service to launch the majority.


----------



## tunce

Ameliorate ~

transitive verb : to make better or more tolerable
intransitive verb : to grow better

I think Directv will be happy with "more tolerable"


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rob said:


> My guess is they will move all of D10's programming to D12 *before* they move D10 to 102.6.


Clearly that would be the intent - get D10 "offloaded" to D12, then make the move with D10 to try to get it back to 100%, then return it back again.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> Well I guess my interpretation of "starting in May" was incorrect. There is no way they can launch all of the channels they announced with just D11 and D12. They'll have to wait until D10 is back in service to launch the majority.


Many of us never assumed all the channels would be launched in one "big bang" startup....so no surprise here. The logistics would have been a major challenge to do it that way.


----------



## jasonki32

My guess is this is why D12 took longer with the IOT, to make sure it can handle all of D10's duties and still be able to expand capacity.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Well I guess my interpretation of "starting in May" was incorrect. There is no way they can launch all of the channels they announced with just D11 and D12. They'll have to wait until D10 is back in service to launch the majority.


Maybe. Maybe not. There is a lot of "reserved" PPV capacity used for overflow events. That may be dipped into to add channels during this process.

We simply do not know yet. The Guide data will demonstrate one way or another after the middle of the month.


----------



## Hdhead

Well one very good thing, D12 must be a very healthy bird if they are to accomplish all this in a few days time.


----------



## syphix

Perhaps at 76, they were testing amelioration on D12 to see if it was a viable fix for D10...hence the delay in drift.


----------



## rorkin

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Clearly that would be the intent - get D10 "offloaded" to D12, then make the move with D10 to try to get it back to 100%, then return it back again.


Why move it back ??? THe slots don't care what the sat is being used to transmit


----------



## jasonki32

rorkin said:


> Why move it back ??? THe slots don't care what the sat is being used to transmit


Because that is the slot that D10 is licensed to broadcast at.


----------



## Sixto

jasonki32 said:


> My guess is this is why D12 took longer with the IOT, to make sure it can handle all of D10's duties and still be able to expand capacity.





Hdhead said:


> Well one very good thing, D12 must be a very healthy bird if they are to accomplish all this in a few days time.





syphix said:


> Perhaps at 76, they were testing amelioration on D12 to see if it was a viable fix for D10...hence the delay in drift.


----------



## Jeremy W

syphix said:


> Perhaps at 76, they were testing amelioration on D12 to see if it was a viable fix for D10...hence the delay in drift.


That would have required D12 to have suffered the same anomaly as D10, otherwise there would have been nothing to ameliorate.


----------



## syphix

syphix said:


> Perhaps at 76, they were testing amelioration on D12 to see if it was a viable fix for D10...hence the delay in drift.


...or they did all the testing they needed to THERE, so once at 103 (eh hem...102.765), they could just transfer the load over and light it up. Or a combination of both. Most likely a combination of both.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> That would have required D12 to have suffered the same anomaly as D10, otherwise there would have been nothing to ameliorate.


That very much depends on the nature of D10's anomaly. You're drawing a conclusion from VERY limited data here.


----------



## syphix

Jeremy W said:


> That would have required D12 to have suffered the same anomaly as D10, otherwise there would have been nothing to ameliorate.


Certainly they could simulate something to ameliorate. Right?


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> That very much depends on the nature of D10's anomaly. You're drawing a conclusion from VERY limited data here.


I'm assuming that D10 will be placed into the path of G15 in such a way that G15 will bump into D10 just right and correct whatever anomaly was present.


----------



## HoTat2

Be very interested to see just how they can "ameliorate" the spotbeam problem on D10, since for obvious reasons satellites don't really lend themselves to "fixing" anything broken once launched. After that "what they have is what they've got" and any system failures henceforth must be dealt with through bypass and/or backup systems or finding a way to cope with the loss of that particular feature from the satellite altogether.


----------



## johnson1995

What this does probably do is end the possibilty we wold see any other channels than the 30 already listed. Like BBCA-HD.


----------



## Carl Spock

Only for now. They expect to have the repair on D10 done within 30 days.


----------



## LameLefty

johnson1995 said:


> What this does probably do is end the possibilty we wold see any other channels than the 30 already listed. Like BBCA-HD.


Perhaps in the short term (like during the 30 day period for which they are requesting the STA). D10 will return to 102.815º at the end of the test period - the CONUS capacity has never been an issue.


----------



## Sixto

Per Mod request, new thread created to discuss D10 Corrective Action: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796


----------



## Jeremy W

HoTat2 said:


> Be very interested to see just how they can "ameliorate" the spotbeam problem on D10


I have a feeling we'll never know, although it would be very interesting indeed.


----------



## Plasman

If they knew about the anomaly during D10 testing, I wonder why couldn't they have rebooted or whatever at that time? Did some smart Engineer come up with a new fix idea since that time? And what if they can't get D10's heart started after the amelioration?


----------



## futureformercsr

HoTat2 said:


> Be very interested to see just how they can "ameliorate" the spotbeam problem on D10, since for obvious reasons satellites don't really lend themselves to "fixing" anything broken once launched. After that "what they have is what they've got" and any system failures henceforth must be dealt with through bypass and/or backup systems or finding a way to cope with the loss of that particular feature from the satellite altogether.


Does the fact that it seems to the company to be 'fixable' give any indication the the rocket scientists, engineers, and good ol' technophiles in here any indication what the problem may be with D10?


----------



## tonyd79

syphix said:


> ...or they did all the testing they needed to THERE, so once at 103 (eh hem...102.765), they could just transfer the load over and light it up. Or a combination of both. Most likely a combination of both.


I'd go with this one. They tested a switch over.

I figure they already had a fix in mind for D10 but they need to shut it off to implement it. D12 gives them the opportunity to do so.

As for adding channels on D12 in addition to the D10 load. There is more space on D12 but also, they have held space in reserve in the past because once they commit to 24/7 channels they don't want to pull them for peak times when there is a lot of sports (full NHL, MLB, NBA slate along with the Masters or the NCAA or some such).

But now they know that D12 works and that at the worst, D10 will be what it is today, so they can always give up on the amelioration and go back to the capacity they have with D10 and D12 well before they will need all the space.


----------



## Jeremy W

Plasman said:


> If they knew about the anomaly during D10 testing, I wonder why couldn't they have rebooted or whatever at that time? Did some smart Engineer come up with a new fix idea since that time?


It may be that they came up with a fix later. It could also be that they were really rushing D10, and although they came up with the fix during testing, they decided that D10 going live was more important than fixing the spotbeams.


Plasman said:


> And what if they can't get D10's heart started after the amelioration?


I highly doubt that the amelioration procdure is that risky. They wouldn't be doing this if it was.


----------



## Inches

trdrjeff said:


> Wow! I'll go ahead and rush into _ass_uming the extry testing may have lead to this possibility
> 
> The word of the day is _ameliorate_ kids


Is that like <ctrl><alt>?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Carl Spock said:


> Wonderful signature, trdrjeff! :lol: Quickly done, too!
> 
> So I want to know: who among you "insiders" knew about this already?


Ah, the old what did ya know and when did ya know it? :lol:

We know what's going on and it's all good. 

BTW, how could you be hanging at Eridani A if it's been blown across space...or would that be into space. :scratchin !rolling


----------



## litzdog911

Plasman said:


> If they knew about the anomaly during D10 testing, I wonder why couldn't they have rebooted or whatever at that time? Did some smart Engineer come up with a new fix idea since that time? And what if they can't get D10's heart started after the amelioration?


I'm guessing the did some simulation testing while D12 was being tested. Now they feel confident that their fix can work. Great news all around!


----------



## LameLefty

futureformercsr said:


> Does the fact that it seems to the company to be 'fixable' give any indication the the rocket scientists, engineers, and good ol' technophiles in here any indication what the problem may be with D10?


I have some ideas but I'm waiting to see from some little birdies if I should discuss them.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Great, Who wants to explain all of this to my wife? She has barely spent any time in the house this week the way it is. You try adjusting the dish trying to keep up with a drifting sat. Now two of them are moving? Who is going to "ameliorate" her, huh???????????


----------



## Jeremy W

I WANT MORE said:


> Who is going to "ameliorate" her, huh???????????


I would think that amelioration is the husband's job.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Jeremy W said:


> I would think that amelioration is the husband's job.


----------



## Hdhead

LameLefty said:


> I have some ideas but I'm waiting to see from some little birdies if I should discuss them.


Uninformed speculation is what we are all about. Go for it!


----------



## Carl Spock

MicroBeta said:


> Ah, the old what did ya know and when did ya know it? :lol:
> 
> We know what's going on and it's all good.


I would have loved to have read the PMs flying among a select few when the doom and gloom crowd were in full froth.



> BTW, how could you be hanging at Eridani A if it's been blown across space...or would that be into space. :scratchin !rolling


I'm in a different universe.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

I guess this is good. Here's what I see, we waited all this time to get a sat up there that will only give us room for 10hd channels while it takes the full load of D10. Then we get to wait for however long, on a fix that may or may not work. All the while, Dish continues to add HD.

If it works, I guess good, but this process has been slow and painful. I guess as long as I have ESPNUHD by Fball season, no biggie. I'd sure like D12 to handle BBCAHD ASAP.


----------



## Sixto

We'll certainly get to see D12's full capacity very soon.

No need to wait and speculate.

It will be full throttle very soon.


----------



## Jason Whiddon

I know, it's just we went from D10 + D12 to just D12, which is really what we had plus 10. Then there is the waiting on the "fix". It's good, just a temp letdown after the excitement of D12 moving.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jeremy W said:


> They'll have to wait until D10 is back in service to launch the majority.


And what if they *can't* get D10 back into service?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> And what if they *can't* get D10 back into service?


Not the sky this time but the whole dang asteroid belt. :eek2:

!rolling


----------



## LameLefty

Lord Vader said:


> And what if they *can't* get D10 back into service?


Yeah and what if a tiny snubfighter destroys your impregnable space station? 

Please, just give it a rest.


----------



## Lord Vader

LameLefty said:


> Yeah and what if a tiny snubfighter destroys your impregnable space station?


Yeah, like that's ever gonna happen! :evilgrin:


----------



## rjdude

Inches said:


> Is that like <ctrl><alt>?


Exactly what I was thinkin'


----------



## cebbigh

I come back from taking the cat to the vet and find the biggest news since D12 was launched has taken place. It's really going to be fun following all this.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

curt8403 said:


> oh dear, the D12 with the solar panels fully retracted, could possibly fit through a stargate, and then were would we be????:scratch::goofygrin


but then with out a lot of ZPM's or a black hole we will only be able to talk to it for about 38 min


----------



## HoTat2

Carl Spock said:


> ... I'm in a different universe.


Oh ...

I really thought you were communicating with your ISP here on Earth from Eridani A through sub-space radio ...


----------



## dennisj00

I've stayed quiet for the last month, but I'm really getting tired of the negative nannies.

They know what their doing, they haven't disclosed all the details, and when the smoke clears (no smoke) we'll have more D*tv capacity.

Thanks for the details Sixto and LL have tried to piece together for us.


----------



## BudShark

That is all. Please return to doom and gloom speculation of how _somehow_ any and all of this is negative.


----------



## lwilli201

BudShark said:


> That is all. Please return to doom and gloom speculation of how _somehow_ any and all of this is negative.


People are ether Optimists or Pessimists. It is obvious that the line has been drawn between the two.  Oh I forgot about the "Don't give a S**t about anything one way or another" group.


----------



## Athlon646464

Not only is the sky *not* falling, but it is expanding and blowing away from us to make room for a crapload of new channels!!!!!!!!!!!!! :hurah:


----------



## georule

syphix said:


> Perhaps at 76, they were testing amelioration on D12 to see if it was a viable fix for D10...hence the delay in drift.


+1

Dem dere engineers can be sneaky folk at times.


----------



## georule

So, some informed speculation please. . . what kind of "fix" on D10 would require it to be moved a little further out from its brothers?


----------



## yosoyellobo

Carl Spock said:


> Wonderful signature, trdrjeff! :lol: Quickly done, too!
> 
> So I want to know: who among you "insiders" knew about this already?


I had a dream about this last night, but did not know what Amelioration meant.


----------



## Athlon646464

I'm a Boston sports nut.

Tonight, all at the same time, we have the Bruins playing a playoff game.

We have the Celtics playing a playoff game.

The Red Sox are playing the Yankees at Fenway.

*And I sit here watching these two threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* :eek2:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Athlon646464 said:


> I'm a Boston sports nut.
> 
> Tonight, all at the same time, we have the Bruins playing a playoff game.
> 
> We have the Celtics playing a playoff game.
> 
> The Red Sox are playing the Yankees at Fenway.
> 
> *And I sit here watching these two threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* :eek2:


Thats why I have a TV in the office. Or for some, a laptop in the TV room.


----------



## bjlc

well since I posted the last gloom and doom post, I will say that I stand corrected.. and leave it at that..
congrats on getting more then we bargined for..


----------



## jacmyoung

Lord Vader said:


> And what if they *can't* get D10 back into service?


This is a totally legit question even though you did not use "?", it is not your habit to use it if one reads your signature, or just your username for that matter, but what if the fix does not work, will they put the load back on D10 and free up D12 for all the new HDs?


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> This is a totally legit question even though you did not use "?", it is not your habit to use it if one reads your signature, or just your username for that matter, but what if the fix does not work, will they put the load back on D10 and free up D12 for all the new HDs?


Based on them already testing the fix on D12... I think its every bit as legit a question as how long before an asteroid takes out the earth..


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> Based on them already testing the fix on D12...


What do you mean by that? I thought D12 was perfectly fine, why is there a need to test a fix for D12?


----------



## jasonki32

jacmyoung said:


> What do you mean by that? I thought D12 was perfectly fine, why is there a need to test a fix for D12?


I think he means they tried the scenario on D12, since it wasn't on service to find the fix for D10 and they were happy with the results. So the plan is do the fix on D10. D12 is fine and ready take over the duties of D10 until the fix is implemented.


----------



## P Smith

jasonki32 said:


> I think he means they tried the scenario on D12, since it wasn't on service to find the fix for D10 and they were happy with the results. So the plan is do the fix on D10. D12 is fine and ready take over the duties of D10 until the fix is implemented.


Following past path of D12 testing Ka at 76W, it could take a couple months easy at 103W.


----------



## jacmyoung

jasonki32 said:


> I think he means they tried the scenario on D12, since it wasn't on service to find the fix for D10 and they were happy with the results. So the plan is do the fix on D10. D12 is fine and ready take over the duties of D10 until the fix is implemented.


I see. If I understand you correctly, part of the D12 plan has always been to also try to fix D10, and they had done such fix test runs on D12 successfully already, the plan is to unload everything from D10 to D12, then do the fix for D10, chances are it will go smoothly because they had already done it on D12.

As unlikely as it may be, the question is still legit, because after all, D10 is not in as good health as D12, what worked on D12 might not work on D10, so in such unlikely event, will they simply move everything back to D10 and free D12 up for its intended HD additions?

Now if he insists that the above question is only as legit as whether an asteroid might want to take out the Earth, then I may still ask him, what if an asteroid is going to try to take out the Earth? What then? Will he sacrifice himself to protect the Earth, so I can live, or will I have to sacrifice myself so he can live? Or should both of us sacrifice ourselves so everyone else here can live and watch more HDs? You see it is still a legit question.


----------



## wmb

P Smith said:


> Following past path of D12 testing Ka at 76W, it could take a couple months easy at 103W.


Depends on what the fix is. It could take 5 minutes, hours, days, weeks. Hopefully not months.


----------



## cebbigh

Personally I think the best story line is that during testing on D12 they found something unexpected that led them to do additional testing with the thought in mind that it could result in a fix for D10, or even a problem with D12 that had to be solved which showed them a way to fix D10. I find it more interesting than it was all planned this way from the start. And I think given the chain of events as revealed through the various STA requests it's highly unlikely that the whole ball of wax was planned in advance.


----------



## jacmyoung

cebbigh said:


> Personally I think the best story line is that during testing on D12 they found something unexpected that led them to do additional testing with the thought in mind that it could result in a fix for D10, or even a problem with D12 that had to be solved which showed them a way to fix D10. I find it more interesting than it was all planned this way from the start. And I think given the chain of events as revealed through the various STA requests it's highly unlikely that the whole ball of wax was planned in advance.


I must admit I like your scenario much better, it is definitely more interesting.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Bottom line:

1) D12 is fine and will be on service as planned.

2) D12 may provide a means to correct a LIL transponder issue on D10 by offloading its content, and then allowing them to focus on D10 to "fix" the previous issue. This was not an option available before D12 came into play up there now. Good news.

3) In the event D10 is able to get "corrected", this may actually open he door to even more than the planned overall bandwidth. More good news.

4) The May roll out of some new HD channels will still commence - likely over a period of 30-60 days to reach the announced 30 new channels. Also good news.

5) The sky is not falling. Best news of all. 

P.S. D12 has passed D11 on its way to 102.765...now at 99.5.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> D12 may provide a means to correct a LIL transponder issue on D10 by offloading its content, and then allowing them to focus on D10 to "fix" the previous issue. This was not an option available before D12 came into play up there now. Good news.


I've been thinking about this, and I don't believe it's correct. If DirecTV had this idea a while ago, they could have done this balancing act with D11 and D10. There was no reason to wait for D12, unless the idea came up after D11 was activated. So it must be a fairly recent development.


----------



## P Smith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> bottom line:
> 
> 1) d12 is fine and will be on service as planned.
> 
> 2) d12 may provide a means to correct a lil transponder issue on d10 by offloading its content, and then allowing them to focus on d10 to "fix" the previous issue. This was not an option available before d12 came into play up there now. Good news.
> 
> 3) in the event d10 is able to get "corrected", this may actually open he door to even more than the planned overall bandwidth. More good news.
> 
> 4) the may roll out of some new hd channels will still commence - likely over a period of 30-60 days to reach the announced 30 new channels. Also good news.
> 
> 5) the sky is not falling. Best news of all. :d
> 
> p.s. D12 has passed d11 on its way to 102.765...now at 99.5.


*
ooooummmmm* !*
ooooummmmm* !*
ooooummmmm* !*
ooooummmmm* !*
ooooummmmm* !

Ps. *
ooooummmmm* !

Pps.*
ooooummmmm* !

Ppps.*
ooooummmmm* !


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> I've been thinking about this, and I don't believe it's correct. If DirecTV had this idea a while ago, they could have done this balancing act with D11 and D10. There was no reason to wait for D12, unless the idea came up after D11 was activated. So it must be a fairly recent development.


Or they needed to get D11 in place for HD quickly after D10 didn't do what they wanted...

Or a combination of both. They might have had some ideas they tested on D11 and continued on D12.

Or the whole "tested on D12" might be a red herring... 

(And I do not know.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MikeR7

P Smith said:


> *
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Ps. *
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Pps.*
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Ppps.*
> ooooummmmm* !


Is this supposed to be sarcastic, or funny? If so, it is not either.


----------



## P Smith

Ad nauseam posts.


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> Or they needed to get D11 in place for HD quickly after D10 didn't do what they wanted...
> 
> Or a combination of both. They might have had some ideas they tested on D11 and continued on D12.
> 
> Or the whole "tested on D12" might be a red herring...
> 
> (And I do not know.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If I understand it correctly, the "tested on D12 already" thing was made up not confirmed? Now that is unfair, making up something, which by definition is not legit, then accusing the other person of asking an illegit question.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> If I understand it correctly, the "tested on D12 already" thing was made up not confirmed?


It is 100% speculation, like many things posted in this thread. It's possible that nothing related to D10 was tested on D12 at all. But if you disagree with the happy speculation, you are a Chicken Little Nay Sayer who needs to shut up and go away. I am starting to get extremely tired of the tone that this forum is taking on.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> It is 100% speculation ...


At least one post in the other thread that might differ.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> I've been thinking about this, and I don't believe it's correct. If DirecTV had this idea a while ago, they could have done this balancing act with D11 and D10. There was no reason to wait for D12, unless the idea came up after D11 was activated. So it must be a fairly recent development.


Recent as in since the launch, or perhaps longer maybe...


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Recent as in since the launch, or perhaps longer maybe...


That answer is there as well.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

P Smith said:


> *
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !*
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Ps. *
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Pps.*
> ooooummmmm* !
> 
> Ppps.*
> ooooummmmm* !


Smokey and The Bandit part 2? :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> At least one post in the other thread that might differ.


Can you elaborate? I think I am only worthy of staying in this thread


----------



## smiddy

The fun of astrophysics in your own back yeard, so to speak.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> At least one post in the other thread that might differ.


I didn't read Satelliteracer's post as confirmation that testing of this fix occured with D12. It's extremely vague.


----------



## Fog627

P Smith said:


> Ad nauseam posts.


self policed...poor taste. Sorry.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:



> I didn't read Satelliteracer's post as confirmation that testing of this fix occured with D12. It's extremely vague.


Maybe some kind of test was done on D12, but I would be very surprised if they actually tried to duplicate the D10 issues on D12 then tried to test the fix in D12, no reason to take such risk, even if it could be done.


----------



## Dolly

Everyone please try to be happy and nice to everyone else--we will be getting more HD very soon :sunsmile:


----------



## smiddy

Looking good!


----------



## Avder

jacmyoung said:


> Maybe some kind of test was done on D12, but I would be very surprised if they actually tried to duplicate the D10 issues on D12 then tried to test the fix in D12, no reason to take such risk, even if it could be done.


I disagree. The hardware for both D10 and D12 seems to me to be very similar. Theres likely been a great deal of data collected by DirecTV technicians regarding whatever is wrong with D10. It sounds like it is something that has a high probability of being fixable. In order to apply that fix however, they needed to test it. I doubt they would have tested it on D12 if there was more than a certain percent chance that it would cause irreversable harm to D12's systems.

Given the extended period that D12 stayed at 76 degrees, and that DirecTV has announced a fix for D10, it sounds almost certainly that the D10 problems were intentionally replicated on D12 so the fix could be tested before they pull D10 out of service. If the fix had failed, I doubt the harm would have been at all extensive, as it was undoubtedly tested in a very controlled manner in order to avoid extensive permanent damange if the fix had failed.

Obviously the fix was successful, and now DirecTV is confident enough that D10 can be fixed either wholly or in part that they are willing to take D10 out of service temporarily so they can see if the fix they developed using D12 will work as planned for D10.

Everything in the industry is done with cost to benefit ratios in mind, and the benefits of bringing D10 to full or close to full potential was obviously enough for the costs in time and potential cost in risked damage to D12 to be offset.

Its not like they can just strap a rocket pack on a tech and send him up for a service call. Space maintenance is much more complex and by definition involves significantly more risk.


----------



## FHSPSU67

This thread is reminding me of my previous working experiences when all the non-engineers wanted to know "everything", before we knew what the end result was going to be. That's the reaason I had a sign hung in my office with the quote included in my signature, from someone who self-admittedly did not know everything, yet few would doubt his accomplishments today


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Jeremy W said:


> It is 100% speculation, like many things posted in this thread. It's possible that nothing related to D10 was tested on D12 at all. But if you disagree with the happy speculation, you are a Chicken Little Nay Sayer who needs to shut up and go away. * I am starting to get extremely tired of the tone that this forum is taking on*.


No one is forcing you come here and/or stay. :nono2: You can leave at any time.

We should all be happy that we are almost there.


----------



## Sixto

Avder said:


> I disagree. The hardware for both D10 and D12 seems to me to be very similar. Theres likely been a great deal of data collected by DirecTV technicians regarding whatever is wrong with D10. It sounds like it is something that has a high probability of being fixable. In order to apply that fix however, they needed to test it. I doubt they would have tested it on D12 if there was more than a certain percent chance that it would cause irreversable harm to D12's systems.
> 
> Given the extended period that D12 stayed at 76 degrees, and that DirecTV has announced a fix for D10, it sounds almost certainly that the D10 problems were intentionally replicated on D12 so the fix could be tested before they pull D10 out of service. If the fix had failed, I doubt the harm would have been at all extensive, as it was undoubtedly tested in a very controlled manner in order to avoid extensive permanent damage if the fix had failed.
> 
> Obviously the fix was successful, and now DirecTV is confident enough that D10 can be fixed either wholly or in part that they are willing to take D10 out of service temporarily so they can see if the fix they developed using D12 will work as planned for D10.
> 
> Everything in the industry is done with cost to benefit ratios in mind, and the benefits of bringing D10 to full or close to full potential was obviously enough for the costs in time and potential cost in risked damage to D12 to be offset.
> 
> Its not like they can just strap a rocket pack on a tech and send him up for a service call. Space maintenance is much more complex and by definition involves significantly more risk.


+1, especially considering the reference to "recent".


----------



## LameLefty

Did everyone miss the part where Satelliteracer said the engineers were very happy with the results of their testing? That tends to make me think they might know what they're doing.


----------



## Sixto

Now that we're past the initial D10 flurry ...

Per the mods request, let's try to move the D10 discussion to the appropriate thread, and keep things as close to D12 as we can here, as D12 gets to Geostationary, goes "live" (probably within the next two weeks with the reference to soon becoming very soon), and then we'll close this thread.

Thanks.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Now that we're past the initial D10 flurry ...
> 
> Per the mods request, let's try to move the D10 discussion to the appropriate thread, and keep things as close to D12 as we can here, as D12 gets to Geostationary, goes "live" (probably within the next two weeks with the reference to soon becoming very soon), *and then we'll close this thread.*
> 
> Thanks.


:crying_sa


----------



## jdspencer

< 2 degrees to go. Looks like it's on schedule.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D12 is at 100.85 as of now...still moving on course and on pace.


----------



## Sixto

We can't be exactly sure where D12 is until the next update, with the orbit maneuvers to return D12 to geostationary possibly already underway.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> We can't be sure where D12 is until the next update, with the orbit maneuvers to get back to geostationary.


Good point....I visualize a big bus-sized "top" up there making all sorts of girations until its in its final location. Good thing I watched alot of sci-fi movies to get the image.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> Now that we're past the initial D10 flurry ...
> 
> Per the mods request, let's try to move the D10 discussion to the appropriate thread, and keep things as close to D12 as we can here, *as D12 gets to Geostationary, goes "live" (probably within the next two weeks with the reference to soon becoming very soon), and then we'll close this thread.*
> 
> Thanks.


Actually, I'm looking forward to the day when this thread and the HD anticipation threads are no longer needed.

There will be a downside for sure, but I think the upside will be well worth it.


----------



## michaelruggeri

We keep hearing about the 30 new channels they listed. And now we hear about the possible additional space due to corrections to D10.

But we do not hear anything about additional HD channels beyond the 30 already listed.

Does Satellite Racer or Sixto or anyone have any thoughts on this?

Will they really be able to move up to 70 new HD channels? Any hints on how long that may take from anyone?

Mike


----------



## dwcolvin

michaelruggeri said:


> We keep hearing about the 30 new channels they listed. And now we hear about the possible additional space due to corrections to D10.
> 
> But we do not hear anything about additional HD channels beyond the 30 already listed.
> 
> Does Satellite Racer or Sixto or anyone have any thoughts on this?
> 
> Will they really be able to move up to 70 new HD channels? Any hints on how long that may take from anyone?


Assuming D10 doesn't self-destruct in the "amelioration" (not trying to spread more doom and gloom  ) and makes it back to 102.815° at least as functional as it is now, there will be the _capacity_ for the ~200 HD channels D* has talked about all along.

The real question is, *what additional HD channels exist (other than perhaps a handful) that you desperately want in the additional 40?* _I'm willing to let them light up the 30 before worrying about more,_ but more is the topic of other threads.


----------



## Sixto

Slightly past the last update ... weird jump in number to #182 ... maybe about to lower orbit.


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-07-2010 14:56:33
Orbit # at Epoch	137
Inclination		0.097
RA of A. Node		63.031
Eccentricity		0.0004875
Argument of Perigee	179.135
Revs per day		0.99433138
Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 401 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 003 x 36 044 km
Element number / age	0182 / 0 day(s)

Lon			98.0066° W
Lat			0.0727° S
Alt (km)		36 029.750

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
171 05-04 04:32 35,920 x 36,037    117+114.46H 126.17D  87.77°W  0.04°N  0.09°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## michaelruggeri

DW,

We are all looking for BBCAmerica, AMC, IFC, Sundance, History International I think. I am hoping that we see these past the 30 listed.

Mike


----------



## dwcolvin

michaelruggeri said:


> DW,
> 
> We are all looking for BBCAmerica, AMC, IFC, Sundance, History International I think. I am hoping that we see these past the 30 listed.
> 
> Mike


Fair enough (if they're all available), but what about the other 35? I would giggle at TruTV HD (which I have on cable) if it weren't for the new NCAA Basketball deal which will show some of the NCAA Tournament on TruTV.  Currently, the local CBS affiliate makes all the basketball feeds available on-air and on digital cable (unencrypted QAM).


----------



## CTJon

some needs to write a satellite simulator game similar to flight simulator. We could not only plug in all the locations and see the relationship of these satellites but also plug in TLE's and see movement, we could simulate adding thrust, etc.

I know that there would be only a couple of hundred of us nuts who would play it but visualizing what it looks like out there and seeing what happens when the experts explain moving orbits would be great for me.


----------



## LameLefty

CTJon said:


> some needs to write a satellite simulator game similar to flight simulator. We could not only plug in all the locations and see the relationship of these satellites but also plug in TLE's and see movement, we could simulate adding thrust, etc.
> 
> I know that there would be only a couple of hundred of us nuts who would play it but visualizing what it looks like out there and seeing what happens when the experts explain moving orbits would be great for me.


It exists and it's expensive. It's called Satellite Toolkit (STK).


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> ...Per the mods request, let's try to move the D10 discussion to the appropriate thread, and keep things as close to D12 as we can here...


What is the request? Not talk about how it will go with the D12 loading up all the channels from D10? Because this will be the next phase. So essentially in the next phase, we will see all the existing channels on D10 provided by D12, I don't know at the meantime how many new HD channels can it add for us.

Can anyone give us an estimate based on the existing load on D10?


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> What is the request? Not talk about how it will go with the D12 loading up all the channels from D10? Because this will be the next phase. So essentially in the next phase, we will see all the existing channels on D10 provided by D12, I don't know at the meantime how many new HD channels can it add for us.
> 
> Can anyone give us an estimate based on the existing load on D10?


If you've actually been READING the thread, you'd know. It's been asked and answered several times, including at least once by Satelliteracer. The answer is up to 10 during the D10 amelioration process, but probably only around 5 to begin with.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> What is the request? Not talk about how it will go with the D12 loading up all the channels from D10? Because this will be the next phase.


As we've done with D10 and D11, the day that the satellite goes "live", which will probably be one of the last two May Wednesdays, this thread will have served it's purpose, and closed.

We'll then see the channel/transponder movement in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2366653

We'll discuss the D10 movement and testing in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796

And we have the current HD channel thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952

All nicely organized.

In the meantime, we stick to tracking D12 and seeing it go "live" with it's first HD channels here.


----------



## Lt Disher

Sixto said:


> As we've done with D10 and D11, the day that the satellite goes "live", which will probably be one of the last two May Wednesdays, this thread will have served it's purpose, and closed.
> 
> We'll then see the channel/transponder movement in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2366653
> 
> We'll discuss the D10 movement and testing in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796
> 
> And we have the current HD channel thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952
> 
> All nicely organized.
> 
> In the meantime, we stick to tracking D12 and seeing it go "live" with it's first HD channels here.


I, for one, will miss this thread. It has been thankfully allowed to stray to very interesting places. It is also a great study in human nature. It would be a great term paper topic analyzing the thread. I find the fanboys willling to contradict themselves and twist logic to its extremes, just to maintain their prejudices (this happens on both sides, btw, this thread happens to be D*, but you could find other threads with the same phenomenon on the other side) and you have the haters willing to goad the fanboys on.

All in all, a great thread, and it has provided hours of entertainment. Thanks to the moderators for allowing it to continue.

(On a side note, special thanks to Sixto. He may specially track D*, but I have never found any of his posts to be anything other than right on the money, never 'fanboy-ish' and always straight. Thanks.)


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> If you've actually been READING the thread, you'd know. It's been asked and answered several times, including at least once by Satelliteracer. The answer is up to 10 during the D10 amelioration process, but probably only around 5 to begin with.


If you have been reading what I said, I had speculated based on the D* changed plans, that D12 coming on line intitially would have little to do with the new HD additions, now you have finally come to agree

Call me selfish, I am not so interested in how D10 may be fixed so some LILs can light up, my interest is that how many more new HDs can D12 bring us when it lights up initially. So not much initially for several reasons, the plans have changed, in fact the plans turned out none of us had ever anticipated.

Those of us who said plans had changed were blasted by you folks, now again you try to act as if you had known them all along?


----------



## jasonki32

jacmyoung said:


> If you have been reading what I said, I had speculated based on the D* changed plans, that D12 coming on line intitially would have little to do with the new HD additions, now you have finally come to agree
> 
> Call me selfish, I am not so interested in how D10 may be fixed so some LILs can light up, my interest is that how many more new HDs can D12 bring us when it lights up initially. So not much initially for several reasons, the plans have changed, in fact the plans turned out none of us had ever anticipated.
> 
> Those of us who said plans had changed were blasted by you folks, now again you try to act as if you had known them all along?


I believe 5 is what to be expected when it lights up and five more shortly after.


----------



## doctor j

Just another aside.
Deeper research may prove otherwise but at least recently:

The D-12 thread is within a dozen of the "most" replies for a Directv thead ( >8000). Has the most views of any thread I could find, and is #2 in replies behind the Watercooler "morphing thread" >13,000.

Top 5 Directv threads by views:
1) D-12
2) D-11
3) D-10 Anticipation
4) eSATA
5) Versus on Directv closely (almost tied) with D-10 Tech thread

Combined D-10 theads > 1,000,000 views!!

Please D-12 get parked so I can get back to more productive research!!

Doctor j


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> If you have been reading what I said, I had speculated based on the D* changed plans, that D12 coming on line intitially would have little to do with the new HD additions, now you have finally come to agree
> 
> Call me selfish, I am not so interested in how D10 may be fixed so some LILs can light up, my interest is that how many more new HDs can D12 bring us when it lights up initially. So not much initially for several reasons, the plans have changed, in fact the plans turned out none of us had ever anticipated.
> 
> Those of us who said plans had changed were blasted by you folks, now again you try to act as if you had known them all along?


Um, what thread have you been reading?


----------



## Doug Brott

Not sure how you missed this thread.

That one has nearly 37,000 replies and over nearly 1.5 Million views .. highly occupied by davring and Stevenv with 10,335 and 7,922 posts respectively. Nearly 1/2 of all posts from 2 people.



doctor j said:


> Just another aside.
> Deeper research may prove otherwise but at least recently:
> 
> The D-12 thread is within a dozen of the "most" replies for a Directv thead ( >8000). Has the most views of any thread I could find, and is #2 in replies behind the Watercooler "morphing thread" >13,000.
> 
> Top 5 Directv threads by views:
> 1) D-12
> 2) D-11
> 3) D-10 Anticipation
> 4) eSATA
> 5) Versus on Directv closely (almost tied) with D-10 Tech thread
> 
> Combined D-10 theads > 1,000,000 views!!
> 
> Please D-12 get parked so I can get back to more productive research!!
> 
> Doctor j


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> Um, what thread have you been reading?


You sounded as if you knew the plan all along that DirecTV was going to have this D12/D10 fix plan, back when DirecTV website changed its plan from the original 200 once D12 was in place, to 160, then to 30 HDs, gradually adding them through the end of the year?

Why didn't you tell us then? Oh I know, had you told us that plan, you would have proven we were correct that the plan had changed. So you decided to withhold your inside information because you knew we were correct?

I have been reading this thread and this thread only, many of us, upon noticing the statement changes on the DirecTV website, speculated either D12 was delayed, or the initial 200, or even the 160, would not arrive once D12 was at the 103 slot, so we said the plan had changed.

Evenyone of you insiders laughed at us, saying no, the plan did not change, when you said that at that time, did you know DirecTV had changed the plan, they were working on a new plan to use D12 to try to fix D10?

I admit I am not as smart, but at least I remember what I said back then and what you said. It seems to me that many of you, as smart as we think you are, I say so sincerely because you guys do know more than we do, but at the same time you also seem to have very short memories.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> If you have been reading what I said, I had speculated based on the D* changed plans, that D12 coming on line intitially would have little to do with the new HD additions, now you have finally come to agree
> 
> Call me selfish, I am not so interested in how D10 may be fixed so some LILs can light up, my interest is that how many more new HDs can D12 bring us when it lights up initially. So not much initially for several reasons, the plans have changed, in fact the plans turned out none of us had ever anticipated.
> 
> Those of us who said plans had changed were blasted by you folks, now again you try to act as if you had known them all along?


I won't call you selfish but I will call you short sighted.

People want their locals first. Nationals second. The more local markets there are, the more subs they can get, and the smaller the price increases need to be.

Call me selfish, but I want my bill to be as small as possible. 

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Not sure how you missed this thread.
> 
> That one has nearly 37,000 replies and over nearly 1.5 Million views .. highly occupied by davring and Stevenv with 10,335 and 7,922 posts respectively. Nearly 1/2 of all posts from 2 people.


I think the most important measure is the average views per day of a particular thread, because otherwise a thread that started years ago will always have the advantage.


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> I won't call you selfish but I will call you short sighted.
> 
> People want their locals first. Nationals second. The more local markets there are, the more subs they can get, and the smaller the price increases need to be.
> 
> Call me selfish, but I want my bill to be as small as possible.
> 
> Mike


Please accept my apology in advance, but I call the above wishful thinking


----------



## Sixto

Circles and circles, and around some go ... 

200, 160, 30 ... 

One of the interesting side effects of the D10 situation, is that we'll get a very early glimpse into the full capacity of D12, while we already know the full capacity and metrics for D10/D11.

We can speculate, and would have speculated maybe all year, what the full potential of D12 was. 

Now we'll know for sure.

As we carefully track the transponder usage of D12 over the next month, we may clearly see the 200, or more, upper limit.

All that will matter in the future is what business decisions are made to utilize the 200, or more, of HD capacity.

Some may make it sound like some web-site change indicated some problem or change to the upper limit, but very soon we'll know for sure what the upper limit actually is, or at least fairly close to what it is.

Looking forward to the analysis.


----------



## BigRedFan

Are there any issues with the D11 transponders which D12 could also help out with (after they fix D10's) ?


----------



## Sixto

BigRedFan said:


> Are there any issues with the D11 transponders which D12 could also help out with (after they fix D10's) ?


Never been any public information of any issue with D11.


----------



## Jeremy W

BigRedFan said:


> Are there any issues with the D11 transponders


D11 had no issues.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Evenyone of you insiders laughed at us, saying no, the plan did not change, when you said that at that time, did you know DirecTV had changed the plan, they were working on a new plan to use D12 to try to fix D10?


I consider myself somewhat of an insider and this is what I said ...

"D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> Please accept my apology in advance, but I call the above wishful thinking


You don't need to apologize for not understanding this, but they base pricing first on what they need, then on what they project will happen, and what they can get away with (just to name a few). A larger the subscriber base is has an impact on all of those.

You don't think they pull those numbers out of thin air do ya?

Increasing the locals carried will increase the potential subscriber base. If they can add a few DMAs I say it's better for us all. 

Mike


----------



## RD in Fla

MicroBeta said:


> You don't need to thpologize for not understanding this, but they base pricing first on what they need, then on what they project will happen, and what they can get away with (just to name a few). A larger the subscriber base is has an impact on all of those.
> 
> You don't think they pull those numbers out of thin air do ya?
> 
> Increasing the locals carried will increase the potential subscriber base. If they can add a few DMAs I say it's better for us all.
> 
> Mike


Although I can see a possible correlation with locals offered and the price of service I don't believe the history of pricing correlates with that analysis at all. I suspect prices have gone up every year since locals in HD have been offered by D* regardless of how many DMAs have been added.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RD in Fla said:


> Although I can see a possible correlation with locals offered and the price of service I don't believe the history of pricing correlates with that analysis at all. I suspect prices have gone up every year since locals in HD have been offered by D* regardless of how many DMAs have been added.


Oh yes, it has gone up but how much more might it have gone up if there were less subs. 

It wasn't an analysis so much as an example. The point of my example was to show that having a larger customer base is good, so adding LiL's will always be a good thing.

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I consider myself somewhat of an insider and this is what I said ...
> 
> "D12 is fine and will be on service as planned"


Of course technically you cannot be wrong when you do not specify what plan you are talking about. But the earlier plan was clearly to send D12 up, upon activation bring our HD capacity to 200. It was stated so in black and white. It is no longer stated so anymore, because the plan changed.

It is this specific point a lot of you are arguing against, asserting that the plan never had changed. This has nothing to do with whether ultimately DirecTV will have 200 capacity, or 300 capacity. If Sixto is correct upon fixing D10 we will reach 300 capacity, then you can say D12 has managed to raise our capacity to 300, now will we insist that using D12 to bring the 300 capacity is the original plan after all because the plan has never changed? Because if the plan has never changed, we can only reach 200 with the launch of D12, not 300. See you cannot have it both ways.

The plan to use D12 to try to fix D10 was not even a plan until very recently, how can anyone even insist the plan did not change?


----------



## Lord Vader

Those who fail to plan plan to fail.


----------



## jacmyoung

Lord Vader said:


> Those who fail to plan plan to fail.


Or in this case, those who refuse to change plans, plan to fail


----------



## oldfantom

Sixto said:


> Circles and circles, and around some go ...
> 
> 200, 160, 30 ...
> 
> One of the interesting side effects of the D10 situation, is that we'll get a very early glimpse into the full capacity of D12, while we already know the full capacity and metrics for D10/D11.
> 
> We can speculate, and would have speculated maybe all year, what the full potential of D12 was.
> 
> Now we'll know for sure.
> 
> As we carefully track the transponder usage of D12 over the next month, we may clearly see the 200, or more, upper limit.
> 
> All that will matter in the future is what business decisions are made to utilize the 200, or more, of HD capacity.
> 
> Some may make it sound like some web-site change indicated some problem or change to the upper limit, but very soon we'll know for sure what the upper limit actually is, or at least fairly close to what it is.
> 
> Looking forward to the analysis.


I am confused. I thought we knew the capacity possible on D12. Is it possible that they could fit another channel on a transponder or something like that?


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> I am confused. I thought we knew the capacity possible on D12. Is it possible that they could fit another channel on a transponder or something like that?


Yes, we were reasonably certain, but over the past few months many have questioned the numbers. Now, we'll see it in action and confirm. Good stuff.


----------



## tuff bob

michaelruggeri said:


> DW,
> 
> We are all looking for BBCAmerica, AMC, IFC, Sundance, History International I think. I am hoping that we see these past the 30 listed.
> 
> Mike


In the never gonna happen, but I'd love it:


----------



## JoeTheDragon

tuff bob said:


> In the never gonna happen, but I'd love it:


Sky news did show up on the D* on line guide for some time but never on air.


----------



## tuff bob

JoeTheDragon said:


> Sky news did show up on the D* on line guide for some time but never on air.


yeah, DirecTV was basically feeding it for a Blair visit to Washington. I remember that. Ok, lets get back no topic now. :grin:


----------



## HelenWeathers

jacmyoung said:


> Of course technically you cannot be wrong when you do not specify what plan you are talking about. But the earlier plan was clearly to send D12 up, upon activation bring our HD capacity to 200. It was stated so in black and white. It is no longer stated so anymore, because the plan changed.
> 
> It is this specific point a lot of you are arguing against, asserting that the plan never had changed. This has nothing to do with whether ultimately DirecTV will have 200 capacity, or 300 capacity. If Sixto is correct upon fixing D10 we will reach 300 capacity, then you can say D12 has managed to raise our capacity to 300, now will we insist that using D12 to bring the 300 capacity is the original plan after all because the plan has never changed? Because if the plan has never changed, we can only reach 200 with the launch of D12, not 300. See you cannot have it both ways.
> 
> The plan to use D12 to try to fix D10 was not even a plan until very recently, how can anyone even insist the plan did not change?


There are two plans here. The GRAND plan is to bring the national HD channel capacity up to 200. That plan hasn't changed at all.

The plans made to implement the GRAND plan have changed over time as more opportunities have presented themselves.


----------



## P Smith

jacmyoung said:


> ...
> The plan to use D12 to try to fix D10 was not even a plan until very recently, how can anyone even insist the plan did not change?


I have strong feeling the D12 during his tests at 76W encountered same issue as D10, but successfully been fixed some way what DTV treat as reproducible with D10.


----------



## smiddy

Progress is good, come on big D!


----------



## jacmyoung

HelenWeathers said:


> There are two plans here. The GRAND plan is to bring the national HD channel capacity up to 200. That plan hasn't changed at all.


Did DirecTV tell you that or just you think so?



> The plans made to implement the GRAND plan have changed over time as more opportunities have presented themselves.


The only plan we know so far that DirecTV will implement next will have nothing to do with your so called grand plan, it will have to do with trying to fix D10. So you see you did not even look at those plans


----------



## Doug Brott

HelenWeathers said:


> There are two plans here. The GRAND plan is to bring the national HD channel capacity up to 200. That plan hasn't changed at all.
> 
> The plans made to implement the GRAND plan have changed over time as more opportunities have presented themselves.


Don't let Dr. Young sway you from this thinking ..


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Don't let Dr. Young sway you from this thinking ..


I am sure you do not mind being swayed by Dr. Smith above, as long as you can accept that plan has changed

I will never refuse to admit wrong as long as I can be right in the end


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I will never refuse to admit wrong as long as I can be right in the end


thus the reason for my comment ..


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> thus the reason for my comment ..


Personally I think it is a shame that you even encouraged HelenWeathers to continue his way of thinking. For one thing, I had already pointed out the fact that DirecTV's next plan has nothing to do with his so called "grand plan" of 200 capacity, secondly, I will not even try to limit myself by thinking that 200 capacity is this "grand plan", what if after they fix D10, we end up with 300 capacity? Am I supposed to refuse to accept it and insist we lower our capacity down to 200?


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Personally I think it is a shame that you even encouraged HelenWeathers to continue his way of thinking. For one thing, I had already pointed out the fact that DirecTV's next plan has nothing to do with his so called "grand plan" of 200 capacity, secondly, I will not even try to limit myself by thinking that 200 capacity is this "grand plan", what if after they fix D10, we end up with 300 capacity? Am I supposed to refuse to accept it and insist we lower our capacity down to 200?


No, but it sure would be nice if "your plan" didn't mean that other's plans were excluded. Besides, I didn't see you saying anything about 300 HD channels a couple a weeks ago ..


----------



## Ed Campbell

"I will never refuse to admit wrong as long as I can be right in the end"

I hadn't been reminded of our Ignore List in a while. Seems to me it was sophistry last time, as well.


----------



## Sixto

Not to confuse anyone, ignore all the 300 talk.

We had ~130, and D12 has 16 national transponders, we're talking ~200-210.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HelenWeathers said:


> There are two plans here. The GRAND plan is to bring the national HD channel capacity up to 200. That plan hasn't changed at all.
> 
> The plans made to implement the GRAND plan have changed over time as more opportunities have presented themselves.


You're thinking too small on the GRAND plan by the way. 

And I completely agree with you about the grand plan for D12.  


jacmyoung said:


> Did DirecTV tell you that or just you think so?
> 
> The only plan we know so far that DirecTV will implement next will have nothing to do with your so called grand plan, it will have to do with trying to fix D10. So you see you did not even look at those plans


Pulease... Raining on the parade never does much good. We know the plans include fixing D10 and bring more HD. The first wave will be 30 channels (in a couple wavelets as it turns out.) And there are waves planned after this first wave.

Will we see 200 HD channels by end of 2010? Maybe. I think it is very possible. (Remembering that several of the 200 will be part-time PPVs and part-time NFL, MBA, NHL, etc.)

Then again the providers are getting greedy so negotiations that normally take a few months are taking years from what I can gather. (Just watching all the Pay TV people negotiate with the providers.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

jacmyoung said:


> You sounded as if you knew the plan all along that DirecTV was going to have this D12/D10 fix plan, back when DirecTV website changed its plan from the original 200 once D12 was in place, to 160, then to 30 HDs, gradually adding them through the end of the year?
> 
> Why didn't you tell us then? Oh I know, had you told us that plan, you would have proven we were correct that the plan had changed. So you decided to withhold your inside information because you knew we were correct?
> 
> I have been reading this thread and this thread only, many of us, upon noticing the statement changes on the DirecTV website, speculated either D12 was delayed, or the initial 200, or even the 160, would not arrive once D12 was at the 103 slot, so we said the plan had changed.
> 
> Evenyone of you insiders laughed at us, saying no, the plan did not change, when you said that at that time, did you know DirecTV had changed the plan, they were working on a new plan to use D12 to try to fix D10?
> 
> I admit I am not as smart, but at least I remember what I said back then and what you said. It seems to me that many of you, as smart as we think you are, I say so sincerely because you guys do know more than we do, but at the same time you also seem to have very short memories.


I think you missed my point.. I have not seen hardly anyone, and definitely not the majority of people on this thread say that we would see all 30 turned on right away, which is exactly what you intimated.. Which is why I was wondering what you have been reading...

I think we all expected additional HD channels, and that they would be added a few at a time over the next few months or so.. In fact, as I recall, some people in the know have even said something along those lines...

This is all irrelevant to fixing D10... In fact, it all fits in the same with or without the D10 fix.. The difference is we might see more LIL HD channels eventually than we might have been thinking based on them possibly fixing the D10 spots...

And please stop talking about 300 hd channels cause they are fixing D10 spotbeams.. There is zero evidence of any kind that suggest this is possible... This 300 talk might confuse some people that haven;t been following this thread.


----------



## ejjames

OT...but does anyone remember back around 2000 when DirecTv had the special airing of the Cubs game in HD? It was so exiting.

Makes me think about how far we have come!


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> No, but it sure would be nice if "your plan" didn't mean that other's plans were excluded. Besides, I didn't see you saying anything about 300 HD channels a couple a weeks ago ..


I never intended to exclude other "plans", but I think one is allowed to question others' so called "plans". You do not have to agree, but there is no reason to state I tried to exclude others' plan. We can agree to disagree, I remember you saying so.

Of course I can change my plan from 200 to 300, because this has been my scheme all along, you folks had refused to admit plans can change, not me.


----------



## jacmyoung

inkahauts said:


> I think you missed my point.. I have not seen hardly anyone, and definitely not the majority of people on this thread say that we would see all 30 turned on right away, which is exactly what you intimated.. Which is why I was wondering what you have been reading...


Show me where I ever said the 30 channels would be put on at the same time, in fact I said several times, the fact they will be phased in is an implication that D12 will not be the reason for the initial 30 new HDs, because DiredcTV already has the capacity to add another 30 HDs, with or without D12. Now we know D12 will have some special mission at 103 location first, I was correct for saying the above, I can't help if you read me wrong.



> I think we all expected additional HD channels, and that they would be added a few at a time over the next few months or so.. In fact, as I recall, some people in the know have even said something along those lines...


No need for anyone "in the know" to say that, DirecTV has clearly stated so itself.



> This is all irrelevant to fixing D10... In fact, it all fits in the same with or without the D10 fix.. The difference is we might see more LIL HD channels eventually than we might have been thinking based on them possibly fixing the D10 spots...


That is fine with me.



> And please stop talking about 300 hd channels cause they are fixing D10 spotbeams.. There is zero evidence of any kind that suggest this is possible... This 300 talk might confuse some people that haven;t been following this thread.


I don't ever tell another fellow member to stop talking about anything, it is not my job to do so. I was making a point, if some folks can not understand I was only trying to make a point, instead get too excited about having 300 HDs soon, then they can be easily excited about anything or depressed about anything anyone says, there is nothing you can do about them.


----------



## LameLefty

And . . . another one hits the IGNORE list.

There! So much better.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I never intended to exclude other "plans", but I think one is allowed to question others' so called "plans". You do not have to agree, but there is no reason to state I tried to exclude others' plan. We can agree to disagree, I remember you saying so.
> 
> Of course I can change my plan from 200 to 300, because this has been my scheme all along, you folks had refused to admit plans can change, not me.


Yes, we get it .. hindsight is 20/20 ..


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, we get it .. hindsight is 20/20 ..


I never said any hindsight, in fact all we are talking about is speculation about things that have yet to happen, I would not call them hindsight.

The fact is, DirecTV has made it public that its next plan is to use D12, once it arrives at the 103 slot, to try to fix D10. By doing so, one can no longer say all of DirecTV's plans are to implement that "grand plan" because this next plan is not one of such plans that has anything to do with this "grand plan". Now you do not have to agree with my above logic, I am not forcing you to agree with me, just stating my opinion.

Another fact is, DirecTV has publicly changed its statement about its future HD development, from the initial goal of 200 capacity, to the current "30/160 plan". I know you have inside information, but I happen to give more weight to what DirecTV is saying in the public, the plain fact is, DirecTV has itself changed its statement, i.e. changed its plan. To think anything else beyond what DirecTV is saying publicly, or to try to tell others anything that DirecTV is not publicly saying, IMHO is irresponsible, but that is just my opinion, I hope no one gets too upset about me stating my opinion.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I never said any hindsight, in fact all we are talking about is speculation about things that have yet to happen, I would not call them hindsight.
> 
> The fact is, DirecTV has made it public that its next plan is to use D12, once it arrives at the 103 slot, to try to fix D10. By doing so, one can no longer say all of DirecTV's plans are to implement that "grand plan" because this next plan is not one of such plans that has anything to do with this "grand plan". Now you do not have to agree with my above logic, I am not forcing you to agree with me, just stating my opinion.
> 
> Another fact is, DirecTV has publicly changed its statement about its future HD development, from the initial goal of 200 capacity, to the current "30/160 plan". I know you have inside information, but I happen to give more weight to what DirecTV is saying in the public, the plain fact is, DirecTV has itself changed its statement, i.e. changed its plan. To think anything else beyond what DirecTV is saying publicly, or to try to tell others anything that DirecTV is not publicly saying, IMHO is irresponsible, but that is just my opinion, I hope no one gets too upset about me stating my opinion.


<moderator hat on>
There can come a time when discussing a dismissed point is tantamount to SPAM. This thread now has two concepts that have reached that level.

1) There is no indication that the current fleet of satellites can possibly support 300 HD channels without either a) over-compressing the signals and/or b) making radical changes to the FCC permitted transponders. (which would mean dropping a lot of LIL capacity.) The fixes for D10 involve LILs, not CONUS, so any fixes will not increase the national channel count. (And I'm fairly certain that 300 National HD channels, at current bitrates, is not even physically possible from those 5 satellites even if all the National transponders and spares were all turned on.)

2) There has been NO change of plans regarding the capacity of 200 that indicates reducing to 160 HD channels. Only the marketing materials have changed from talking about capacity of 200 to the reality of the _first _wave (of several) adding 30 new channels. Those statements are not changes in technical plans--only a change in marketing push--and part of the whole marketing plan. Not even a marketing plan change; just standard marketing procedure.

So everyone can just stop discussing either of those two concepts. They will be considered SPAM in regards to promoting false information purposefully and repeatedly.

</moderator hat>

Tom


----------



## litzdog911

Thank you, Tom!


----------



## jacmyoung

Tom Robertson said:


> <moderator hat on>
> There can come a time when discussing a dismissed point is tantamount to SPAM. This thread now has two concepts that have reached that level.
> 
> 1) There is no indication that the current fleet of satellites can possibly support 300 HD channels without either a) over-compressing the signals and/or b) making radical changes to the FCC permitted transponders. (which would mean dropping a lot of LIL capacity.) The fixes for D10 involve LILs, not CONUS, so any fixes will not increase the national channel count. (And I'm fairly certain that 300 National HD channels, at current bitrates, is not even physically possible from those 5 satellites even if all the National transponders and spares were all turned on.)


I hope I get the chance to publicly state that it was not my aim to state that we will have 300 capacity, I was only trying to make a point that I do not want to limit myself in thinking for more. If my use of the number 300 somehow can be considered trying to spread misinformation, I have already stated, will state again, I was only trying to make a point, no one should take that number literally. I did not think anyone would, but since there is the concern, please allow me to clarify again, I will not use the number 300 again.



> 2) There has been NO change of plans regarding the capacity of 200 that indicates reducing to 160 HD channels. Only the marketing materials have changed from talking about capacity of 200 to the reality of the _first _wave (of several) adding 30 new channels. Those statements are not changes in technical plans--only a change in marketing push--and part of the whole marketing plan. Not even a marketing plan change; just standard marketing procedure.


I thought the original DirecTV's statement about the 200 capacity was a marketing statement, I guess I was wrong, they made a technical statement, later made the new marketing statements, two different types of statements. If so I admit I was wrong about that.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jacmyoung said:


> I hope I get the chance to publicly state that it was not my aim to state that we will have 300 capacity, I was only trying to make a point that I do not want to limit myself in thinking for more. If my use of the number 300 somehow can be considered trying to spread misinformation, I have already stated, will state again, I was only trying to make a point, no one should take that number literally. I did not think anyone would, but since there is the concern, please allow me to clarify again, I will not use the number 300 again.
> 
> I thought the original DirecTV's statement about the 200 capacity was a marketing statement, I guess I was wrong, they made a technical statement, later made the new marketing statements, two different types of statements. If so I admit I was wrong about that.


All the statements are marketing and investor relations statements. One set was very forward looking (and technical capacity). Then as the first wave of channels was finalized, Marketing could go with stronger statements: "The first wave will be these 30 channels." Such a statement does not imply anything about reduced capacity. Only how the first part of the capacity will be used. With a hint of more to come.

And the investors comments haven't changed one bit--there will be 200 channel capacity.

So let us move on from both topics.

If anyone wishes to discuss this further please PM any moderator.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

DirecTV is going to be adding more HD channels in the near future!


----------



## bobojay

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV is going to be adding more HD channels in the near future!


Cool!!


----------



## Carl Spock

With D10 still at 102.815° and D12 destined for 102.765°, I'll give the Chicken Littles something new to fret about:

Parallel parking.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> As we've done with D10 and D11, the day that the satellite goes "live", which will probably be one of the last two May Wednesdays, this thread will have served it's purpose, and closed.
> 
> We'll then see the channel/transponder movement in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2366653
> 
> We'll discuss the D10 movement and testing in the appropriate thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796
> 
> And we have the current HD channel thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952
> 
> All nicely organized.
> 
> In the meantime, we stick to tracking D12 and seeing it go "live" with it's first HD channels here.


When are you going to get any sleep?


----------



## oldfantom

Carl Spock said:


> With D10 still at 102.815° and D12 destined for 102.765°, I'll give the Chicken Littles something new to fret about:
> 
> Parallel parking.


As the wise Leela taught us, space is in three dimensions. They will nose in. You need not worry about a ring of satellites any more than a ring of space environmentalists.


----------



## smiddy

The sun came up (again) on this fine Mother's Day morning and DirecTV - 12 is a few degrees closer to the parking spot. Do you suppose the cost of parking is a bit more than airport parking?  

To all you Mothers, have a Happy Day!


----------



## HarleyD

LameLefty said:


> And . . . another one hits the IGNORE list.
> 
> There! So much better.


+1

Actually more like +3.

With this thread over the last few weeks more than one person with nothing to say has insisted on saying it repeatedly to the point of tuning them out...forcibly if necessary.

It's like working in a stable. After a while the stench of $#!+ gets tuned out.


----------



## Hdhead

smiddy said:


> The sun came up (again) on this fine Mother's Day morning and DirecTV - 12 is a few degrees closer to the parking spot. Do you suppose the cost of parking is a bit more than airport parking?
> 
> To all you Mothers, have a Happy Day!


Yes, Happy Mother's Day! I wonder if there are any mother's who follow this thread? If anything like my mother or wife they could care less.

If there are any mother's here please speak up so we can congratulate you!!


----------



## smiddy

HarleyD said:


> +1
> 
> Actually more like +3.
> 
> With this thread over the last few weeks more than one person with nothing to say has insisted on saying it repeatedly to the point of tuning them out...forcibly if necessary.
> 
> It's like working in a stable. After a while the stench of $#!+ gets tuned out.


Applause! Well said!


----------



## georule

The geek population that cares about capacity is dwarfed by the Joe Public population that cares about current/near-term reality (tho perhaps not here at DBSTalk), so it makes a lot of sense to shift the marketing effort from capacity to actual channels available or about to be available.

Heck, a couple banner ads here and at AVS re capacity would take care of scratching the geeks itches.


----------



## richall01

ejjames said:


> OT...but does anyone remember back around 2000 when DirecTv had the special airing of the Cubs game in HD? It was so exiting.
> 
> Makes me think about how far we have come!


The only HD program we had was the Sat. night movie @ 8p on HBO.


----------



## Hdhead

ejjames said:


> OT...but does anyone remember back around 2000 when DirecTv had the special airing of the Cubs game in HD? It was so exiting.
> 
> Makes me think about how far we have come!


And the first day they turned on HDNET in 2001. It was like watching my first color TV all over again!


----------



## PhilS

Note the wording "200 HD channel CAPACITY". I think Directv will be very selective in adding additional HD channels and save some of that capacity for 3D channels. So we may not see 200 HD channels until D14.


----------



## usnret

Do the Sat's use the same method to parallel park as the Ford Escape??


----------



## Gaily Waily

Thank you for the Mother's Day wishes! I usually don't have a lot to add to the discussions here, but I do like to keep up on the latest news with all of you. BTW, my _babies are 26 and 24 years old now. Fingers crossed that D12 brings us what we've all been wishing for!_


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PhilS said:


> Note the wording "200 HD channel CAPACITY". I think Directv will be very selective in adding additional HD channels and save some of that capacity for 3D channels. So we may not see 200 HD channels until D14.


Then again...with D10 potentially getting up to full power...much sooner than that...in the end...there also has to be viable content of 200 HD channels.


----------



## Sixto

Only now need to get the orbit adjusted (down).


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-09-2010 05:37:33
Orbit # at Epoch	139
Inclination		0.097
RA of A. Node		57.122
Eccentricity		0.0004921
Argument of Perigee	184.406
Revs per day		0.99433424
Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 401 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 002 x 36 044 km
Element number / age	175 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.9573° W
Lat			0.0293° N
Alt (km)		36 005.200

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°
182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Only now need to get the orbit adjusted (down).
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name            DirecTV-12
> NORAD #            36131
> Epoch (UTC)        05-09-2010 05:37:33
> Orbit # at Epoch    139
> Inclination        0.097
> RA of A. Node        57.122
> Eccentricity        0.0004921
> Argument of Perigee    184.406
> Revs per day        0.99433424
> Period            24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
> Semi-major axis        42 401 km
> Perigee x Apogee    36 002 x 36 044 km
> Element number / age    175 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon            102.9573° W
> Lat            0.0293° N
> Alt (km)        36 005.200
> 
> [B][U]# [/U][U]Date[/U] [U]GMT  [/U] [U]Perigee[/U]  [U]Apogee[/U] [U] Gap [/U][U]Chg-Hrs[/U] [U] Day  [/U] [U] Long  [/U] [U] Lat  [/U] [U]Inclin[/U][/B]
> 175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +38.68H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
> 182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
> 174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
> 173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
> 172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


Woo-Who!


----------



## The Scotsman

Sixto said:


> Only now need to get the orbit adjusted (down).
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		05-09-2010 05:37:33
> Orbit # at Epoch	139
> Inclination		0.097
> RA of A. Node		57.122
> Eccentricity		0.0004921
> Argument of Perigee	184.406
> Revs per day		0.99433424
> Period			24h 08m 12s (1448.20 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 401 km
> Perigee x Apogee	36 002 x 36 044 km
> Element number / age	175 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			102.9573° W
> Lat			0.0293° N
> Alt (km)		36 005.200
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +38.68H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
> 182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
> 174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
> 173 05-06 02:43 36,003 x 36,044     41 +46.17H 128.10D  93.55°W  0.07°N  0.09°
> 172 05-04 04:32 36,002 x 36,044     42 + 0.00H 126.17D  87.73°W  0.04°N  0.09°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


I was looking in www.n2yo.com and therein it says D12 is at longitude 103.88. Does that mean D12 at some time recently has slightly overshot its intended parking spot?


----------



## Sixto

The Scotsman said:


> I was looking in www.n2yo.com and therein it says D12 is at longitude 103.88. Does that mean D12 at some time recently has slightly overshot its intended parking spot?


n2yo is just an extrapolation of a TLE.

The Boeing/DirecTV engineers have a plan, parking by Tuesday (per the Friday Filing).


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> n2yo is just an extrapolation of a TLE.
> 
> The Boeing/DirecTV engineers have a plan, parking by Tuesday (per the Friday Filing).


What's with the #182 update? Why is it mis-numbered (ie. before #175)?


----------



## joed32

HarleyD said:


> +1
> 
> Actually more like +3.
> 
> With this thread over the last few weeks more than one person with nothing to say has insisted on saying it repeatedly to the point of tuning them out...forcibly if necessary.
> 
> It's like working in a stable. After a while the stench of $#!+ gets tuned out.


How do you put a poster on the "ignore" list?


----------



## TBlazer07

smiddy said:


> Woo-Who!


 Actually it's Woo-Hoo because we do know Woo-Who.

Sorry, I got soooo ameliorated last night. :lol:


----------



## ARKDTVfan

joed32 said:


> How do you put a poster on the "ignore" list?


add their name in the box and click the okay button

http://www.dbstalk.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist


----------



## Sixto

PhilS said:


> What's with the #182 update? Why is it mis-numbered (ie. before #175)?


Over the years, we've seen these screwy TLE numbers, along with duplicate TLE numbers, the only thing that matters is the timestamp. We're good.

A Happy Mothers Day morning with D12 at 103°, now just a few days of adjusting the orbit.


----------



## HarleyD

joed32 said:


> How do you put a poster on the "ignore" list?


Here's another way.

Click on their name. In their profile screen just below their name are two drop down menus...'Send Message' and 'User Lists'.

Click on the User Lists drop down and from that menu click 'Add To Ignore List'.


----------



## doctor j

Doug Brott said:


> Not sure how you missed this thread.
> 
> That one has nearly 37,000 replies and over nearly 1.5 Million views .. highly occupied by davring and Stevenv with 10,335 and 7,922 posts respectively. Nearly 1/2 of all posts from 2 people.


No excuses
I did qualify as recent?

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

All kinds of wacky TLE's!

Now there's a #184 with an older time stamp. Will add to the historical view.


----------



## jimmyv2000

it won't be long now !!! More HD
and maybe (Praying) WGBH-HD In Boston gets lit up too soon


----------



## Carl Spock

D12 reaches its new home on Mother's Day.

I think I'm going to cry.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> All kinds of wacky TLE's!
> 
> Now there's a #184 with an older time stamp. Will add to the historical view.


Added 184.


Code:


175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°


----------



## Karen

Hdhead said:


> Yes, Happy Mother's Day! I wonder if there are any mother's who follow this thread? If anything like my mother or wife they could care less.
> 
> If there are any mother's here please speak up so we can congratulate you!!


I'm a mother and a grandmother and check this thread several times a day. It's fun watching grown men act like children. <g> Thanks for the Happy Mother's Day wishes.

To keep this on topic, all I will say is go D12! May your parking skills be better than mine...


----------



## makaiguy

Ed Campbell said:


> I hadn't been reminded of our Ignore List in a while.


Good idea! +1

Now if it would just block quotes in replies too we'd be all set.


----------



## joed32

ARKDTVfan said:


> add their name in the box and click the okay button
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist


Thank you sir!


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Added 184.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 175 05-09 05:37 [B]36,002 x 36,044[/B]     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
> 184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°


Sixto, new title and the parameters are not matching: 36,002 x 36,044.


----------



## thelucky1

Karen said:


> I'm a mother and a grandmother and check this thread several times a day. *It's fun watching grown men act like children*. <g> Thanks for the Happy Mother's Day wishes.
> 
> To keep this on topic, all I will say is go D12! May your parking skills be better than mine...


ROFL. Soooo true. Exciting times ahead very soon from D10 & D12!!!


----------



## bidger

Carl Spock said:


> D12 reaches its new home on Mother's Day.
> 
> I think I'm going to cry.


Why Spock, I didn't know you were capable of such things.



Karen said:


> I'm a mother and a grandmother and check this thread several times a day. It's fun watching grown men act like children.


:lol: Once more Happy Mothers Day wish, btw.


----------



## Hdhead

I don't understand. If D12 has reached it's parking longitude but is still at the drift altitude doesn't that mean it will overshoot 103? Does it have thrusters with enough power to instantly slow it down and settle it into the geo-syc? Help me you rocket scientists.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hdhead said:


> I don't understand. If D12 has reached it's parking longitude but is still at the drift altitude doesn't that mean *it will overshoot 103*? Does it have thrusters with enough power to instantly slow it down and settle it into the geo-syc? Help me you rocket scientists.


It will be backtracked slightly, yes.

The positioning to its final exactly location takes a few maneuvers...but in general, its very close now to the final destination. Once there, they'll do some testing again, then migrate the D10 content.


----------



## GP245

Karen said:


> I'm a mother and a grandmother and check this thread several times a day. It's fun watching grown men act like children. <g> Thanks for the Happy Mother's Day wishes.
> 
> To keep this on topic, all I will say is go D12! May your parking skills be better than mine...


Happy Mother's Day to you, Karen!

But, unfortunately, your quote does a disservice to children!


----------



## ntwrkd

The Mother of all drifts! Happy Mother's day!


----------



## ub1934

Orbitron now has D12 @ 104.1999 , time to drift back to 102.xxx


----------



## Carl Spock

bidger said:


> Carl Spock said:
> 
> 
> 
> D12 reaches its new home on Mother's Day.
> 
> I think I'm going to cry.
> 
> 
> 
> Why Spock, I didn't know you were capable of such things.
Click to expand...

I haven't felt this broken up since I lost a fine ho to Harry Mudd over a coke deal gone bad.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

ub1934 said:


> Orbitron now has D12 @ 104.1999 , time to drift back to 102.xxx


Someone drop the anchor, quick..... :lol:


----------



## smiddy

TBlazer07 said:


> Actually it's Woo-Hoo because we do know Woo-Who.
> 
> Sorry, I got soooo ameliorated last night. :lol:


Thanks for _ameliorating_ me. :lol:

Much better than a Boo Who!


----------



## Talos4

Thanks Carl!


----------



## wmb

Talos4 said:


> Thanks Carl!


Its amazing how the future looked in the past!!!


----------



## makaiguy

Definitely bears repeating 



Talos4 said:


> Thanks Carl!


----------



## Alan Gordon

OK, forgive me for asking this question for two reasons:

1. I'm not sure if this question belongs in the D12 or D10 thread.
2. For asking a question when the answer is probably buried in thousands of posts that I missed.

However, I'm going to do it anyway! 

Where/When/How did the 300 number pop up in regards to channel capacity?! I saw it mentioned out of the blue... which means I must have missed something, and I can't figure out how, when, or where?!

~Alan


----------



## -Draino-

jimmyv2000 said:


> it won't be long now !!! More HD
> and maybe (Praying) WGBH-HD In Boston gets lit up too soon


We already have this in HD.....don't we?


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> All kinds of wacky TLE's!
> 
> Now there's a #184 with an older time stamp. Will add to the historical view.





P Smith said:


> Sixto, new title and the parameters are not matching: 36,002 x 36,044.


Hey P.

Yes, as mentioned, #184 had an older time stamp. so just added it before the most recent TLE in time sequence.


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Where/When/How did the 300 number pop up in regards to channel capacity?! I saw it mentioned out of the blue... which means I must have missed something, and I can't figure out how, when, or where?!
> 
> ~Alan


Spam. 

No truth to it.


----------



## HoosierBoy

I know this is in the wrong topic but I am hoping someone can comment. 

I have two H-23's that have not received the firmware upgrade to see D12. There is a problem with the release on the MRV part of the upgrade. With the new D10 plan, we could be missing a lot of HD channels if the release is not downloaded. 

Would anyone have an update on this issue. It just got really important for this update to happen really soon.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Spam.
> 
> No truth to it.


Thanks! 

~Alan


----------



## Hdhead

Hdhead said:


> I don't understand. If D12 has reached it's parking longitude but is still at the drift altitude doesn't that mean it will overshoot 103? Does it have thrusters with enough power to instantly slow it down and settle it into the geo-syc? Help me you rocket scientists.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> It will be backtracked slightly, yes.
> 
> The positioning to its final exactly location takes a few maneuvers...but in general, its very close now to the final destination. Once there, they'll do some testing again, then migrate the D10 content.


So it will drift past 103 to about 104 while braking then sorta do a u-turn as it decelerates and descends to it's parking spot? Just trying to visualize the maneuver spatially.


----------



## Rob

Directv has told me they will have the capacity for 200 HD channels 5 times, so logic tells me that they will be carrying over 1000 HD channels (200 x 5) by the time D10 is back in place.


----------



## Davenlr

Rob said:


> Directv has told me they will have the capacity for 200 HD channels 5 times, so logic tells me that they will be carrying over 1000 HD channels (200 x 5) by the time D10 is back in place.


Which they could easily do, by using 1440x1080/24, and 720x720/60 with mono audio, but I doubt you would like the resulting "HD" picture and sound


----------



## Sandy

Hdhead said:


> Yes, Happy Mother's Day! I wonder if there are any mother's who follow this thread? If anything like my mother or wife they could care less.
> 
> If there are any mother's here please speak up so we can congratulate you!!


Here. Mother of 3 grandmother of 4.


----------



## Sixto

Sandy said:


> Here. Mother of 3 grandmother of 4.


Welcome to all the Mom's in the thread today.

Happy Mother's Day! :balloons:


----------



## CoachGibbs

-Draino- said:


> We already have this in HD.....don't we?


Nope.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Hey P.
> 
> Yes, as mentioned, #184 had an older time stamp. so just added it before the most recent TLE in time sequence.


I mean, the sat cannot be *parked* [see a title of the thread]at an orbit with such apogee/perigee parameters.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> I mean, the sat cannot be *parked* [see a title of the thread]at an orbit with such apogee/perigee parameters.


Correct, thus the comma in the thread title.

It's at 103° and will be parked by mid-week (hopefully).


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Correct, thus the comma in the thread title.
> 
> It's at 103° and *will be* parked by mid-week (hopefully).


I missed the "will be" yesterday and I thought how I missed the park moment?


----------



## oldfantom

Karen said:


> I'm a mother and a grandmother and check this thread several times a day. It's fun watching grown men act like children. <g> Thanks for the Happy Mother's Day wishes.
> 
> To keep this on topic, all I will say is go D12! May your parking skills be better than mine...


Within this big ol' body ... the heart of child.

It feels like we just got out a school for the festivus break. Very soon papa racer will declare it festivus eve. Sixto will move from this thread and start and man the D14 anticipation thread.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

man thats quick, i didnt realize it would be there soo soon.


----------



## ATARI

brett_the_bomb said:


> man thats quick, i didnt realize it would be there soo soon.


real quick -- only took 5 months 

(I kid, I kid)


----------



## brett_the_bomb

ATARI said:


> real quick -- only took 5 months
> 
> (I kid, I kid)


lol i can take that.  im not the super sensitive type.


----------



## Sixto

getting excited ...

probably less than a handful of days until 103 (ca) signal ...

who will see it first?


----------



## Groundhog45

This *is* getting exciting. Thanks for everything, *Sixto.*

Happy Mother's Day.


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> getting excited ...
> 
> probably less than a handful of days until 103 (ca) signal ...
> 
> who will see it first?


Does Directv need anything else from the FCC before they can light up D12 at 103?


----------



## Sixto

PhilS said:


> Does Directv need anything else from the FCC before they can light up D12 at 103?


Nope. 

D12 coming to 103 (ca) signal screen near you ...


----------



## Food Lion Man

How much futher past 103 will D12 go? N2yo is currently showing it at 105.35. Is this accurate?


----------



## Sixto

Food Lion Man said:


> How much futher past 103 will D12 go? N2yo is currently showing it at 105.35. Is this accurate?


Not necessarily accurate.

n2yo is just extrapolating an old TLE.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Food Lion Man said:


> How much futher past 103 will D12 go? N2yo is currently showing it at 105.35. Is this accurate?


Very unlikely. That is the biggest problem with n2yo's tracking--when things are actually moving and changing orbits their tracking goes bonkers until they finally catch up with the latest TLE.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## elixir26

oldfantom said:


> Within this big ol' body ... the heart of child.
> 
> It feels like we just got out a school for the festivus break. Very soon papa racer will declare it festivus eve. Sixto will move from this thread and start and man the D14 anticipation thread.


Ahhh What, What! When did D14 launch??? Heck I must have missed D13, or did they skip 13 because of the unlucky bit?? HELP PLEASE...I need to know all about D14!!!!.... Just kidding of course.. It has been a interesting ride..


----------



## Avder

elixir26 said:


> Ahhh What, What! When did D14 launch??? Heck I must have missed D13, or did they skip 13 because of the unlucky bit?? HELP PLEASE...I need to know all about D14!!!!.... Just kidding of course.. It has been a interesting ride..


If I were superstitious, which I kinda am, I would skip D13 and go straight to D14.

So when they light up D12, are they gonna do it one transponder at a time, or all at once?

And how are they gonna move programming from D10 to D12? One channel at a time or one big fat flashcut?


----------



## LameLefty

elixir26 said:


> Ahhh What, What! When did D14 launch??? Heck I must have missed D13, or did they skip 13 because of the unlucky bit?? HELP PLEASE...I need to know all about D14!!!!.... Just kidding of course.. It has been a interesting ride..


There were plans for D13 several years ago but they were cancelled when plans changed. D14 was recently authorized by the Board of Directors, as announced last week during an investors' conference call.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Avder said:


> If I were superstitious, which I kinda am, I would skip D13 and go straight to D14.
> 
> So when they light up D12, are they gonna do it one transponder at a time, or all at once?
> 
> And how are they gonna move programming from D10 to D12? One channel at a time or one big fat flashcut?


D13 was the assigned number for a replacement at 110° that has been canceled. So we're expecting the next one to be D14. Keep watching, we'll talk about it when we get the word. 

Programming changes can be done either way. They might do it one transponder at a time as groups of channels. And if things go smoothly, they can be done quickly. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> D13 was the assigned number for a replacement at 110° that has been canceled. So we're expecting the next one to be D14. Keep watching, we'll talk about it when we get the word.
> 
> Programming changes can be done either way. They might do it one transponder at a time as groups of channels. And if things go smoothly, they can be done quickly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Well, as LameLefty noted, the board did authorize D14 .. So officially it's now moving forward .. BUT .. We've only passed the thumbs up stage. I'm not even sure DIRECTV has decided exactly how it will be constructed at this point. The best we know is that it is a spare/replacement, but then again, so was D12 and look what it's doing now.


----------



## smiddy

Doug Brott said:


> Well, as LameLefty noted, the board did authorize D14 .. So officially it's now moving forward .. BUT .. We've only passed the thumbs up stage. I'm not even sure DIRECTV has decided exactly how it will be constructed at this point. The best we know is that it is a spare/replacement, but then again, so was D12 and look what it's doing now.


DirecTV - 12 is the _ameliorator_! 

DirecTV - 14...the possibilities, them be endless! :hurah:


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> getting excited ...
> 
> probably less than a handful of days until 103 (ca) signal ...
> 
> who will see it first?


Based on my lottery record it won't be me.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Spam.
> 
> No truth to it.


Now Sixto, if anyone else it would be fine with me, but this from you? I already said I was trying to make a point. Your smiley just didn't cut it

If you want to know what is a "spam" word, I can tell you it is the number "200". Before anyone gets bent out of shape, please understand it is only my opinion, you do not have to agree.

The number "200" had already been "stolen" by the competitor, not only to claim first but used to ridicule DirecTV, my feeling is DirecTV will never even utter the number "200" again, it is an old, tired, used, in another word, a "spam".

Again don't get upset with me, just stating my view, no one has to agree.


----------



## brett_the_bomb

this thread really seems to be slowing down... i can finally keep up! as for the d10 thread, that ones just warming up it seems.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Food Lion Man said:


> How much futher past 103 will D12 go? N2yo is currently showing it at 105.35. Is this accurate?


They say real time, but it's not really.

With the TLE it has it knows it's moving, but doesn't know how far.

Until it get's a new TLE it'll assume it's still moving. :grin:

Mike


----------



## EagleClaw

Very exciting for sure. Will be keeping my eye out for that signal :grin:



Sixto said:


> getting excited ...
> 
> probably less than a handful of days until 103 (ca) signal ...
> 
> who will see it first?


----------



## Hutchinshouse

So is D12 still drifting away from 103° or has it successfully made the u-turn?

Should be a fun week. Really anticipating the first DIRECTV logo feed from D12.


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> So is D12 still drifting away from 103° or has it successfully made the u-turn?
> 
> Should be a fun week. Really anticipating the first DIRECTV logo feed from D12.


We await the next TLE update to understand the final positioning.

We may get interim updates, or we may just get the next update when it's parked.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> We await the next TLE update to understand the final positioning.
> 
> We may get interim updates, or we may just get the next update when it's parked.


What do you think about the theory that due to close proximity with D10, D12 needs to over-shoot then park from the west?


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> What do you think about the theory that due to close proximity with D10, D12 needs to over-shoot then park from the west?


If we get any interim TLE's we may be able to understand the actual path better.

Technically, with the most current TLE, D12 was possibly already slightly past 102.765°.

The FCC Filing stated Tuesday, so looking forward to it.


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> What do you think about the theory that due to close proximity with D10, D12 needs to over-shoot then park from the west?


The satellites will be around 22 - 24 miles apart. They're each only 150 feet wide.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> The satellites will be around 22 - 24 miles apart. They're each only 150 feet wide.


It wasn't my theory, as a J6P I could not possibly come up with such theory. But thanks for the explanation.

While the sat is only 150 feet, I assume the room for maneuver will be a lot bigger? The dude travels that distance in a second (I could be off but that is a given) for God sake.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> If we get any interim TLE's we may be able to understand the actual path better.
> 
> Technically, with the most current TLE, D12 was possibly already slightly past 102.765°.
> 
> The FCC Filing stated Tuesday, so looking forward to it.





LameLefty said:


> The satellites will be around 22 - 24 miles apart. They're each only 150 feet wide.


Do you guys have adjoining offices. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Update #176 on the way ...


----------



## Ken984

Newer TLE, still not parked, but closer.



Code:


DIRECTV 12 
1 36131U 09075A   10130.25564245  .00000033  00000-0  10000-3 0  1760
2 36131 000.0984 054.3746 0004895 182.9728 336.6600 00.99437594  1408


----------



## Ken984

Whoops, Sixto beat me to it.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Update #176 on the way ...


Seems like they may be coming in from past 103 ... 


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-10-2010 06:08:07
Orbit # at Epoch	140
Inclination		0.098
RA of A. Node		54.375
Eccentricity		0.0004895
Argument of Perigee	182.973
Revs per day		0.99437594
Period			24h 08m 08s (1448.13 min)
Semi-major axis		42 400 km
Perigee x Apogee	36 001 x 36 043 km
Element number / age	176 / 0 day(s)

Lon			105.9969° W
Lat			0.0164° N
Alt (km)		36 002.420

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
176 05-10 06:08 36,001 x 36,043     42 +24.51H 132.24D 106.00°W  0.02°N  0.10°
175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°
182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## Ken984

Still shows its moving away, but I bet we get a few more tle's today.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Seems like they may be coming in from past 103 ...


So the above theory of not mine might have some validity?


----------



## syphix

Wow!! Really?? They went all the way to 106 before turning around??


----------



## trdrjeff

Sounds like Ghostrider requested a flyby 

_
Satellites gone up to the sky
Things like that drive me out of my mind
I watched it for a little while
I love to watch things on TV_


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> So the above theory of not mine might have some validity?





syphix said:


> Wow!! Really?? They went all the way to 106 before turning around??


The data is the data.


----------



## pfp

Would someone please hit the brakes and throw this puppy in reverse.


----------



## GregLee

Tom Robertson said:


> Food Lion Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much futher past 103 will D12 go? N2yo is currently showing it at 105.35. Is this accurate?
> 
> 
> 
> Very unlikely. That is the biggest problem with n2yo's tracking ...
Click to expand...

Since early Mon. it is at 106, 105.35 for Sunday was perhaps a good estimate from n2yo, after all.


----------



## thelucky1

I am anxiously awaiting those famous words from Sixto:

"Mission Control the Eagle (D12) has landed (parked)!"


----------



## rayjoe2

the OAs probably mis-calculated or the thruster didn't perform as expected...takes a while to characterize the thrusters.


----------



## Athlon646464

rayjoe2 said:


> the OAs probably mis-calculated or the thruster didn't perform as expected...takes a while to characterize the thrusters.


You make it sound like an either/or situation - and neither one sounds good....... :eek2:

I prefer to think that ground control has some branches growing in front of their dish from the neighbors yard, so they need to move the sat a little to the side of 103... :hurah:


----------



## erosroadie

pfp said:


> Would someone please hit the brakes and throw this puppy in reverse.


Should have gone to Midas for that 32-point brake inspection before their journey...:grin:


----------



## Lem

I haven't read all 350+ replies to the thread, so I probably missed it, but I'm curious as to whether I would be able to get all of D*'s HD offerings when D12 becomes operational. At this point I cannot get any HD programming because of hills and trees being in the way. With D12 at 103 degrees I just might be able to get a window.


----------



## LameLefty

Lem said:


> I haven't read all 350+ replies to the thread, so I probably missed it, but I'm curious as to whether I would be able to get all of D*'s HD offerings when D12 becomes operational. At this point I cannot get any HD programming because of hills and trees being in the way. With D12 at 103 degrees I just might be able to get a window.


D10 is already at 103º, so if you can't get current national HD offerings, you won't be able to get them from D12.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> The data is the data.


OK, I can't resist (but maybe I should anyway). Data are plural (more than one datum). So, this should be "The data are the data. "


----------



## Sixto

wmb said:


> OK, I can't resist (but maybe I should anyway). Data are plural (more than one datum). So, this should be "The data are the data. "


That too.


----------



## Rob

Lem said:


> At this point I cannot get any HD programming because of hills and trees being in the way.


----------



## EaglePC

EaglePC will spot 103(ca) this weds or thurs early morning ,let you know on signal strength .I could'nt get 1 satallite at my new location ,i chained saw the tree down ,it was like 50 some feet.ah joking no it cost me only 200.00 ,glad i've known someone.my Home TheatreRoom is turning out awesome.:grin:


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Seems like they may be coming in from past 103 ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name			DirecTV-12
> NORAD #			36131
> Epoch (UTC)		05-10-2010 06:08:07
> Orbit # at Epoch	140
> Inclination		0.098
> RA of A. Node		54.375
> Eccentricity		0.0004895
> Argument of Perigee	182.973
> Revs per day		0.99437594
> Period			24h 08m 08s (1448.13 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 400 km
> Perigee x Apogee	36 001 x 36 043 km
> Element number / age	176 / 0 day(s)
> 
> Lon			105.9969° W
> Lat			0.0164° N
> Alt (km)		36 002.420
> 
> [B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
> 176 05-10 06:08 36,001 x 36,043     42 +24.51H 132.24D 106.00°W  0.02°N  0.10°
> 175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
> 184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°
> 182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°
> 174 05-07 05:51 36,003 x 36,044     41 +27.14H 129.23D  96.94°W  0.03°N  0.09°
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


Does this seem weird? Still at drift west altitude


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> Does this seem weird? Still at drift west altitude


May be weird to some, and not so weird to the Boeing/DirecTV engineers, being that we're not educated on the parking plan.

Also, sometimes TLE's get updated.

Friday filing stated arrival "on or about 5/11", so will reserve judgment until the end of the week.

Also, "arrival" and "parked" may not be the same, thus the update to the title.

Quite possible that there may be several days of parking/tweaking.


----------



## tonyd79

As long as D12 doesn't have a Toyota nameplate, I think we will be fine.


----------



## damondlt

Sixto said:


> May be weird to some, and not so weird to the Boeing/DirecTV engineers, being that we're not educated on the parking plan.
> 
> Also, sometimes TLE's get updated.
> 
> Friday filing stated arrival "on or about 5/11", so will reserve judgment until the end of the week.
> 
> Also, "arrival" and "parked" may not be the same, thus the update to the title.
> 
> Quite possible that there may be several days of parking/tweaking.


 Must be going around again.

I doubt its parallel parking.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

tonyd79 said:


> As long as D12 doesn't have a Toyota nameplate, I think we will be fine.


Really?


----------



## tonyd79

Stuart Sweet said:


> Really?


Yeah, so it can be stopped rather than keep on going way past 103!


----------



## Hdhead

EaglePC said:


> EaglePC will spot 103(ca) this weds or thurs early morning ,let you know on signal strength .I could'nt get 1 satallite at my new location ,i chained saw the tree down ,it was like 50 some feet.ah joking no it cost me only 200.00 ,glad i've known someone.my Home TheatreRoom is turning out awesome.:grin:


Glad you got a clear shot at 103 now. Keep the eagle eye out and send us a pic.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

EaglePC is right. He _always_ seems to be the first to find the birds.


----------



## Hdhead

I know my parking spot is somewhere around here.........


----------



## jacmyoung

wmb said:


> OK, I can't resist (but maybe I should anyway). Data are plural (more than one datum). So, this should be "The data are the data. "


In the world of our J6Ps (Sixto not-with-standing), it does not matter, a singular word repeated more than once will turn into a plural, and if it is misinformation, it actually turns into spam, which is both singular and plural.

Part of me hopes those new TLEs are incorrect so D12 is already parked at 103 for good, but then such hope naturally makes those TLEs misinformation, repeated several times already, which make them spam. The thought of that terrifies me, what am I supposed to hope?


----------



## hyde76

What are J6Ps?


----------



## ATARI

jacmyoung said:


> In the world of our J6Ps (Sixto not-with-standing), it does not matter, a singular word repeated more than once will turn into a plural, and if it is misinformation, it actually turns into spam, which is both singular and plural.
> 
> Part of me hopes those new TLEs are incorrect so D12 is already parked at 103 for good, but then such hope naturally makes those TLEs misinformation, repeated several times already, which make them spam. The thought of that terrifies me, what am I supposed to hope?


I like my spam fried with butter, brown sugar and crushed pineapple.


----------



## Athlon646464

hyde76 said:


> What are J6Ps?


Joe 6 Packs


----------



## Hdhead

This is my very crude representation of what it looks like D12 is likely to do to get to 103 given the current TLE. Seems like an odd way to get there but sure they have good reason to do it this way.

Green = geo sync orbit
Yellow = way I thought it would get there
Red = projected path?

Does this make sense?


----------



## curt8403

Hdhead said:


> This is my very crude representation of what it looks like D12 is likely to do to get to 103 given the current TLE. Seems like an odd way to get there but sure they have good reason to do it this way.
> 
> Green = geo sync orbit
> Yellow = way I thought it would get there
> Red = projected path?
> 
> Does this make sense?
> 
> View attachment 21985


a little crude, but seems to be correct


----------



## P Smith

Yes. If it's planned that way.


----------



## jacmyoung

Hdhead said:


> This is my very crude representation of what it looks like D12 is likely to do to get to 103 given the current TLE. Seems like an odd way to get there but sure they have good reason to do it this way.
> 
> Green = geo sync orbit
> Yellow = way I thought it would get there
> Red = projected path?
> 
> Does this make sense?
> 
> View attachment 21985


Yes and thank you so much, now it is all clear to me. I did not realize not only was I a J6P, but also a limited visual learner.

Just one question, where your geo sync orbit takes an abrupt end, based on your arrangement of the constellation, am I correct it is because there is a black hole there?


----------



## Hdhead

jacmyoung said:


> Just one question, where your geo sync orbit takes an abrupt end, based on your arrangement of the constellation, am I correct it is because there is a black hole there?


Exactly!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Hdhead said:


> This is my very crude representation of what it looks like D12 is likely to do to get to 103 given the current TLE. Seems like an odd way to get there but sure they have good reason to do it this way.


Let me get this straight...

...D12 is in the Shark Nebula?!?! 

Darn aliens will get to see BBC America HD before I do.... 

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> Let me get this straight...
> 
> ...D12 is in the Shark Nebula?!?!
> 
> Darn aliens will get to see BBC America HD before I do....
> 
> ~Alan


!rolling


----------



## P Smith

Alan Gordon said:


> Let me get this straight...
> 
> ...D12 is in the Shark Nebula?!?!
> 
> Darn aliens will get to see BBC America HD before I do....
> 
> ~Alan


I would think self-restraining bolt would keep some of us straight on the topic.  While Mods are not watching.


----------



## Hdhead

Alan Gordon said:


> Let me get this straight...
> 
> ...D12 is in the Shark Nebula?!?!
> 
> Darn aliens will get to see BBC America HD before I do....
> 
> ~Alan


Sorry, couldn't find a good picture of earth accommodate my doodling.


----------



## Tonedeaf

Lem said:


> At this point I cannot get any HD programming because of hills and trees being in the way.





Rob said:


>


That or this. :lol:


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Tonedeaf said:


> That or this. :lol:


----------



## loudo

syphix said:


> Wow!! Really?? They went all the way to 106 before turning around??


It maybe is Toyota driven and the gas pedal stuck.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

loudo said:


> It maybe is Toyota driven and the gas pedal stuck.


I'm predicting a *Sweet* sound very shortly.


----------



## erosroadie

Hdhead said:


> This is my very crude representation of what it looks like D12 is likely to do to get to 103 given the current TLE. Seems like an odd way to get there but sure they have good reason to do it this way.
> 
> Green = geo sync orbit
> Yellow = way I thought it would get there
> Red = projected path?
> 
> Does this make sense?
> 
> View attachment 21985


Sure. People have a habit of circling the parking lot a few times to find the best slot. Why would a satellite be any different???:whatdidid


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm predicting a *Sweet* sound very shortly.


me too


----------



## erosroadie

ATARI said:


> I like my spam fried with butter, brown sugar and crushed pineapple.


Prefer spam, spam, eggs and spam...


----------



## erosroadie

P Smith said:


> I would think self-restraining bolt would keep some of us straight on the topic.  While Mods are not watching.


Bolts may work you, but not D12. Seems that there are no mechanical fasteners on the satellite. It is simply glued together...


----------



## loudo

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm predicting a *Sweet* sound very shortly.


Sounds good to me.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm predicting a *Sweet* sound very shortly.


You rang?

DIRECTV12 isn't a Toyota. This thread is about one of those things, and not the other.

If you'd like to make Toyota-related jokes, that's fine as long as they're marginally on topic and not distasteful. Although, I'm not quite sure how you'd make property damage, loss of life and fraud funny. But you could try.

If you'd like to have an honest discussion about Toyota and Lexus vehicles, as the owner of several I'm happy to have a conversation via private message.

Thanks.


----------



## JeffBowser

I wonder what I am missing. Stuart isn't normally so touchy about any given subject.


----------



## curt8403

Stuart Sweet said:


> You rang?
> 
> DIRECTV12 isn't a Toyota. This thread is about one of those things, and not the other.
> 
> If you'd like to make Toyota-related jokes, that's fine as long as they're marginally on topic and not distasteful. Although, I'm not quite sure how you'd make property damage, loss of life and fraud funny. But you could try.
> 
> If you'd like to have an honest discussion about Toyota and Lexus vehicles, as the owner of several I'm happy to have a conversation via private message.
> 
> Thanks.


oddly a toyota with a KVH system could get directv programming


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes it could and I actually looked into it... but have you seen those things? They're HUUUUUUGE!


----------



## jacmyoung

erosroadie said:


> Sure. People have a habit of circling the parking lot a few times to find the best slot. Why would a satellite be any different???:whatdidid


Because people who circle the parking lot around and around usually are up to no good?


----------



## Alan Gordon

erosroadie said:


> Sure. People have a habit of circling the parking lot a few times to find the best slot. Why would a satellite be any different???:whatdidid





jacmyoung said:


> Because people who circle the parking lot around and around usually are up to no good?


Speak for yourself! 

~Alan


----------



## jacmyoung

Alan Gordon said:


> Speak for yourself!
> 
> ~Alan


Unfortunately you can't even do that you poor Alan, when D12 is in full blast, there will still be no new DirecTiVo anywhere in sight


----------



## Hutchinshouse

tonyd79 said:


> As long as D12 doesn't have a Toyota nameplate, I think we will be fine.





loudo said:


> It maybe is Toyota driven and the gas pedal stuck.


Better watch the Prius jokes. A Casket will fit in Stuart's car. :lol:

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-298934

:backtotop


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> Unfortunately you can't even do that you poor Alan, when D12 is in full blast, there will still be no new DirecTiVo anywhere in sight




I have an HR23-700/HR20-700 that will fulfill my D12 needs...

~Alan


----------



## jacmyoung

Hutchinshouse said:


> Better watch the Prius jokes. A Casket will fit in Stuart's car. :lol:
> 
> http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-298934
> 
> :backtotop


Getting back to the topic:



> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> In ecology, *overshoot* occurs when a population exceeds the long term carrying capacity of its environment.


Now I wonder if he did manage to sneak one or two of his caskets with the related contents on D12, before it took off?


----------



## jacmyoung

Alan Gordon said:


> I have an HR23-700/HR20-700 that will fulfill my D12 needs...
> 
> ~Alan


You seem to be the only person who speak so found of your TiVo experience in that thread, I could be wrong, if so I apologize for getting off the topic.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This is the wrong thread to be discussing TiVo. Let's get back to topic.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> This is the wrong thread to be discussing TiVo. Let's get back to topic.


What about Prius? Both Prius and D12 do have many things in common, such as "xenon", "solar panel", "battery power", "satellite antenna", and "Hybrid" Satellite-Terrestrial Communication Networks.

I swear there is one more


----------



## Food Lion Man

Once D12 parks, hopefully tomorrow, how many days do you think they'll test it at the 103 position? Do you think we'll have to wait until Wednesday, May 19th before we see any new channels? Also, do you think it will be simple to switch D10 over to D12?

Thanks.


----------



## jdspencer

Any idea when the latest TLE will start to be reflected on the n2yo tracking site? I have doubt that D12 is really at 108.


----------



## P Smith

Soon.


----------



## jacmyoung

jdspencer said:


> Any idea when the latest TLE will start to be reflected on the n2yo tracking site? I have doubt that D12 is really at 108.


Sometimes even the TLE can be wrong.


----------



## Doug Brott

Food Lion Man said:


> Once D12 parks, hopefully tomorrow, how many days do you think they'll test it at the 103 position? Do you think we'll have to wait until Wednesday, May 19th before we see any new channels? Also, do you think it will be simple to switch D10 over to D12?
> 
> Thanks.


Any (immediately) new HD will be on D12 .. I suspect D10 will be on the move really soon.


----------



## smiddy

It is getting so close, I can feel it,


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smiddy said:


> It is getting so close, I can feel it,


Just what does that feel like? :ewww:

.....wait....I feel it too! :eek2:

!rolling

Mike


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

MicroBeta said:


> Just what does that feel like? :ewww:
> 
> .....wait....I feel it too! :eek2:
> 
> !rolling
> 
> Mike


Yep, I felt it too... but I'm pretty sure it's gas... I don't think new HD would make the paint on my walls peel this bad...


----------



## smiddy

It is Tuesday!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D12 activation so close you can taste it...new HD channels so close you can feel them.


----------



## doctor j

SIXTO:
good news in this am's TPN 31 PID Download!!!



Code:


38:	   *TEST	 9723	10	1010	1011		tv:1930.ch
38:	  *BIOHD	 9723	10	1010	1011		tv:1930.ch

41:	   *TEST	 9724	10	1020	1021		tv:2037.ch
42:	   *TEST	 9733	12	1010	1011		tv:2041.ch
43:	   *TEST	 9725	10	1030	1031		tv:2042.ch
44:	   *TEST	 9743	14	1010	1011		tv:2048.ch
41:	 *CBSCHD	 9724	10	1020	1021		tv:2037.ch
42:	  *MGMHD	 9733	12	1010	1011		tv:2041.ch
43:	  *FSDHD	 9725	10	1030	1031		tv:2042.ch
44:	 *SyfyHD	 9743	14	1010	1011		tv:2048.ch

47:	   *TEST	 9726	10	1040	1041		tv:2242.ch
48:	   *TEST	 9727	10	1050	1051		tv:2247.ch
49:	   *TEST	 9729	11	1020	1021		tv:2248.ch
50:	   *TEST	 9730	11	1030	1031		tv:2250.ch
51:	   *TEST	 9731	11	1040	1041		tv:2254.ch
52:	   *TEST	 9753	16	1010	1011		tv:2347.ch	FSN Florida HD (D12)
47:	 *BRVOHD	 9726	10	1040	1041		tv:2242.ch
48:	 *T101HD	 9727	10	1050	1051		tv:2247.ch
49:	  *TLCHD	 9729	11	1020	1021		tv:2248.ch
50:	 *NESNHD	 9730	11	1030	1031		tv:2250.ch
51:	  *MTVHD	 9731	11	1040	1041		tv:2254.ch
52:	 *STZwHD	 9753	16	1010	1011		tv:2347.ch

56:	   *TEST	 9773	20	1010	1011		tv:2443.ch
56:	  *DSCHD	 9773	20	1010	1011		tv:2443.ch

59:	   *TEST	 9738	13	1010	1011		tv:2993.ch
59:	 *SMTHHD	 9738	13	1010	1011		tv:2993.ch

107:	   *TEST	 9732	11	1050	1051		tv:2471.ch	FSN Cincinnati HD/HD PPV
108:	   NHLHD	  770	 9	1700	1701		tv:5770hd.ch
107:	 *NIKeHD	 9732	11	1050	1051		tv:2471.ch

116:	   *TEST	 9748	15	1010	1011		tv:3166.ch
117:	   *TEST	 9735	12	1030	1031		tv:3287.ch
116:	  *TWCHD	 9748	15	1010	1011		tv:3166.ch
117:	 *PLDAHD	 9735	12	1030	1031		tv:3287.ch
141:	   *TEST	 9736	12	1040	1041		tv:3322.ch	HBO2 East HD
142:	   *TEST	 9737	12	1050	1051		tv:3324.ch	HBO2 West HD
143:	   *TEST	 9739	13	1020	1021		tv:3336.ch	FSN Ohio HD (D12)
144:	   *TEST	 9746	14	1040	1041		tv:3354.ch
145:	   *TEST	 9740	13	1030	1031		tv:3340.ch
146:	   *TEST	 9741	13	1040	1041		tv:3341.ch
147:	   *TEST	 9742	13	1050	1051		tv:3342.ch
148:	   *TEST	 9744	14	1020	1021		tv:3343.ch
149:	   *TEST	 9745	14	1030	1031		tv:3346.ch
138:	  *NFLHD	 9736	12	1040	1041		tv:3322.ch
139:	 *MAXeHD	 9737	12	1050	1051		tv:3324.ch
140:	  *FBNHD	 9739	13	1020	1021		tv:3336.ch
141:	 *FSSWHD	 9746	14	1040	1041		tv:3354.ch
142:	 *FUELHD	 9740	13	1030	1031		tv:3340.ch
143:	  *SPDHD	 9741	13	1040	1041		tv:3341.ch
144:	  *CNeHD	 9742	13	1050	1051		tv:3342.ch
145:	  *NBAHD	 9744	14	1020	1021		tv:3343.ch
146:	 *FSPTHD	 9745	14	1030	1031		tv:3346.ch
154:	   *TEST	 9789	23	1010	1011		tv:4260.ch
150:	  *USAHD	 9789	23	1010	1011		tv:4260.ch

164:	   *TEST	 9758	17	1010	1011		tv:3429.ch
161:	  *YESHD	 9758	17	1010	1011		tv:3429.ch

167:	   *TEST	 9728	11	1010	1011		*TEST	tv:2621.ch
164:	  *BTNHD	 9728	11	1010	1011		*BTNHD	tv:2621.ch

182:	   *TEST	 9747	14	1050	1051		tv:3478.ch
183:	   *TEST	 9749	15	1020	1021		tv:3479.ch
184:	   *TEST	 9750	15	1030	1031		tv:3480.ch
185:	   *TEST	 9751	15	1040	1041		tv:3481.ch
180:	 *SEDGHD	 9747	14	1050	1051		tv:3478.ch
181:	  *NGCHD	 9749	15	1020	1021		tv:3479.ch
182:	 *FOODHD	 9750	15	1030	1031		tv:3480.ch
183:	  *SCIHD	 9751	15	1040	1041		tv:3481.ch

187:	   *TEST	 9754	16	1020	1021		tv:3483.ch
188:	   *TEST	 9755	16	1030	1031		tv:3484.ch
185:	  *NHLHD	 9754	16	1020	1021		tv:3483.ch
186:	 *STZCHD	 9755	16	1030	1031		tv:3484.ch

190:	   *TEST	 9757	16	1050	1051		tv:3498.ch
191:	   *TEST	 9759	17	1020	1021		tv:3499.ch
192:	   *TEST	 9761	17	1040	1041		tv:3524.ch	TMC Xtra HD East
193:	   *TEST	 9762	17	1050	1051		tv:3525.ch
188:	 *FSRMHD	 9757	16	1050	1051		tv:3498.ch
189:	  *ESNHD	 9759	17	1020	1021		tv:3499.ch
190:	   *FXHD	 9761	17	1040	1041		tv:3524.ch
191:	 *TMCeHD	 9762	17	1050	1051		tv:3525.ch

202:	   *TEST	 9774	20	1020	1021		tv:3580.ch
203:	   *TEST	 9775	20	1030	1031		tv:3581.ch
204:	   *TEST	 9760	17	1030	1031		tv:3588.ch
205:	   *TEST	 9776	20	1040	1041		tv:3590.ch
206:	   *TEST	 9777	20	1050	1051		tv:3591.ch
207:	   *TEST	 9779	21	1020	1021		tv:3592.ch
208:	   *TEST	 9780	21	1030	1031		tv:3593.ch
209:	   *TEST	 9781	21	1040	1041		tv:3606.ch
210:	   *TEST	 9782	21	1050	1051		tv:3607.ch
211:	   *TEST	 9785	22	1020	1021		tv:3608.ch
212:	   *TEST	 9786	22	1030	1031		tv:3609.ch
213:	   *TEST	 9788	22	1050	1051		tv:3612.ch
200:	 *CSNCHD	 9774	20	1020	1021		tv:3580.ch
201:	   *TEST	 9775	20	1030	1031		tv:3581.ch	HD Occ 2 D12
202:	  *SNYHD	 9760	17	1030	1031		tv:3588.ch
203:	 *SHOwHD	 9776	20	1040	1041		tv:3590.ch
204:	  *TBSHD	 9777	20	1050	1051		tv:3591.ch
205:	 *DISeHD	 9779	21	1020	1021		tv:3592.ch
206:	   *VSHD	 9780	21	1030	1031		tv:3593.ch
207:	 *HGTVHD	 9781	21	1040	1041		tv:3606.ch
208:	  *CMTHD	 9782	21	1050	1051		tv:3607.ch
209:	 *STZeHD	 9785	22	1020	1021		tv:3608.ch
210:	   *TEST	 9786	22	1030	1031		tv:3609.ch	HD Occ 1 D12
211:	 *MAXwHD	 9788	22	1050	1051		tv:3612.ch

216:	   *TEST	 9792	23	1040	1041		tv:3617.ch
214:	 *CNBCHD	 9792	23	1040	1041		tv:3617.ch

219:	   *TEST	 9778	21	1010	1011		tv:3642.ch
220:	   *TEST	 9783	22	1010	1011		tv:3643.ch
221:	   *TEST	 9787	22	1040	1041		tv:3681.ch
217:	  *CSNHD	 9778	21	1010	1011		tv:3642.ch
218:	  *APLHD	 9783	22	1010	1011		tv:3643.ch
219:	  *VH1HD	 9787	22	1040	1041		tv:3681.ch

Doctor j


----------



## syphix

doctor j said:


> SIXTO:
> good news in this am's TPN 31 PID Download!!!


 Decipher what we're looking at here, Doc...I see mention of D12...I think....plus test channels (HBO2E/W HD, TMC Xtra HD, etc.)...


----------



## doctor j

syphix said:


> Decipher what we're looking at here, Doc...I see mention of D12...I think....plus test channels (HBO2E/W HD, TMC Xtra HD, etc.)...


Changes nearby. SOON!!!
Will let Sixto give his opinion.
Could see D_12 transponders today, certainly by next Wednesday.
New channels maybe IN A WEEK OR TWO??

Doctor j


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Maybe I imagined it but I did see signal of 97 on TSP 12!!! Now it's gone.


----------



## dshu82

Come on, come on.....

Really wanted ESPN U in HD by this weekend for NCAA Lacrosse Tourney first round, but hopefully by the quarterfinals now.....

Come on.....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Maybe I imagined it but I did see signal of 97 on TSP 12!!! Now it's gone.


Things could be coming on and going off for testing so you probably didn't imagine it.

Mike


----------



## HDTVFreak07

97 on transponder 10 now.

So, that means more anticipations for the next few days!!!

Edit: now transponder 10 is zero but 11 showing 97. I'll end posting here as we're well aware they're testing them today.


----------



## LameLefty

HDTVFreak07 said:


> 97 on transponder 10 now.
> 
> So, that means more anticipations for the next few days!!!
> 
> Edit: now transponder 10 is zero but 11 showing 97. I'll end posting here as we're well aware they're testing them today.


Are you sure you're looking at 103(ca)? All zeros here still.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

LameLefty said:


> Are you sure you're looking at 103(ca)? All zeros here still.


Yes. Like I said, they're coming on and off on different transponders.


----------



## ARKDTVfan

doctor j said:


> Changes nearby. SOON!!!
> Will let Sixto give his opinion.
> Could see D_12 transponders today, certainly by next Wednesday.
> New channels maybe IN A WEEK OR TWO??
> 
> Doctor j


a week!!!!!!

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2450553&postcount=1034

I just hope it's not just RSNs and premiums that Doctor J's list showed
ESPNU would be nice


----------



## syphix

I haven't seen anything on 103(ca) but 0's....but I'm watching via Slingbox at home, so when/if it happens, I'll try to get a screenshot.


----------



## jimmyv2000

LameLefty said:


> Are you sure you're looking at 103(ca)? All zeros here still.


all zero the last 5 minutes
maybe theyre testing a spot?


----------



## syphix

Is 103(ca) CONUS for D12, or spotbeam?


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> SIXTO:
> good news in this am's TPN 31 PID Download!!!
> 
> Doctor j


Thanks doctor j.

Have posted the daily compare in the transponder thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2450645#post2450645

Still needs more analysis (old vs new by transponder) but at first pass just looks like the start of the D10 offload, several other slots still to fill up.


----------



## Indiana627

All 0s here too for the last 15 minutes.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Now showing signal on transponder 13 and then off. Here's proof.


----------



## ptuck874

syphix said:


> Is 103(ca) CONUS for D12, or spotbeam?


conus



Nothing here either  and I was hoping to be the first to say I got something on ca  lol

Though it is filling in real quick with the 0's, last week took some time to fill in the 0's


----------



## ARKDTVfan

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Now showing signal on transponder 13 and then off. Here's proof.


anyone can photoshop 88 into the pic



but in all seriousness We're very close I can feel it


----------



## Sixto

No update to location.

I'd be surprised if it was parked and transmitting so quickly, based on the status yesterday.

Would be pleasantly surprised, but still a surprise.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> I'd be surprised if it was parked and transmitting so quickly, based on the status yesterday.


So, why the 88 signal on HDTVFreak's box, then?


----------



## Rob

syphix said:


> So, why the 88 signal on HDTVFreak's box, then?


His microwave is not shield and he was heating up some oatmeal with apple cinnamon. The microwave leakage caused a temporary false positive negatively.


----------



## jefbal99

Damn, wish I was home to play with 103(ca)


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> No update to location.
> 
> I'd be surprised if it was parked and transmitting so quickly, based on the status yesterday.
> 
> Would be pleasantly surprised, but still a surprise.


See Satelliteracer's comments in other thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952&page=42
May 19'th big day??


----------



## HDTVFreak07

More proof of testing. Transponder 11 showed signal.


----------



## Sixto

PhilS said:


> See Satelliteracer's comments in other thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952&page=42
> May 19'th big day??


Yep, 5/19, but still 8 days between now and then. Lots of time.


----------



## RAD

I just checked and I still have all zero's on 103(ca), strange.


----------



## doctor j

RAD said:


> I just checked and I still have all zero's on 103(ca), strange.


Tests are on and off quickly.
"Must be patient, Grasshopper!"

Doctor j


----------



## syphix

Yeah, the problem with the transponder signal page is that it only updates one transponder at a time. If it just shut off when it cycles through, you missed it. It's all about timing.

And my timing's off. Still have yet to see signal on 103(ca), but I'm working too and barely paying attention.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Is there a test Chanel for this yet? 9506,9508, or whatever?


----------



## Hdhead

HDTVFreak07 said:


> More proof of testing. Transponder 11 showed signal.


How come you are the only one seeing signals. Maybe bleed over from military surveillance equipment from Camp Drum. Seriously, they test a lot of advance radar equipment there.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Hdhead said:


> How come you are the only one seeing signals. Maybe bleed over from military surveillance equipment from Camp Drum. Seriously, they test a lot of advance radar equipment there.


Funny you said that because last night, I saw a couple of tractor trailers hauling several "portable satellite dish" at a nearby gas station.


----------



## syphix

Hdhead said:


> How come you are the only one seeing signals.


I'm starting to wonder that, too...I have rewound on my Slingplayer, and I'm still seeing nothing...


----------



## Darkscream

I WANT MORE said:


> Is there a test Chanel for this yet? 9506,9508, or whatever?


I believe 9508 and 9509.


----------



## Darkscream

All 0's here - and been looking on and off for over an hour.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Still a whole bunch of nothing on 103(ca) here...


----------



## LameLefty

HDTVFreak07 said:


> More proof of testing. Transponder 11 showed signal.


Just for clarification here, you don't happen to have an engineering test card in that receiver, do you?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

LameLefty said:


> Just for clarification here, you don't happen to have an engineering test card in that receiver, do you?


Nope.


----------



## nd bronco fan

Kinda strange, D12 must have pulled one of these to be in a testing location already........


----------



## I WANT MORE

Darkscream said:


> I believe 9508 and 9509.





I WANT MORE said:


> Is there a test Chanel for this yet? 9506,9508, or whatever?


Anyone see anything on those?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Am I REALLY the only one seeing any signal at all on 103(ca)???? That's really odd.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> No update to location.
> 
> I'd be surprised if it was parked and transmitting so quickly, based on the status yesterday.
> 
> Would be pleasantly surprised, but still a surprise.


You can admit it later, or admit it now that our J6P has proven you scientists wrong again


----------



## Darkscream

I WANT MORE said:


> Anyone see anything on those?


Searching for signal - is all I am sure anyone gets.


----------



## doctor j

Stuart Sweet said:


> Still a whole bunch of nothing on 103(ca) here...


Wonder if they are testing just to geographic region first.

Conus should be conus,just wasting time speculating.

Would REALLY like to see a TLE showing D-12 parked!:hurah:

Doctor j


----------



## dbaser

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Am I REALLY the only one seeing any signal at all on 103(ca)???? That's really odd.


Still looking.. but all 0's so far...

Maybe you had a bad slice from Cam's for breakfast...

(I used to work for Cam and Tony)


----------



## bjamin82

I don't even show 103(ca)


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> You can admit it later, or admit it now that our J6P has proven you scientists wrong again


Some people just love conflict.

This is intended to be a friendly thread to track a new satellite, as we all look forward to lots of new HD, from our favorite TV provider.

Based on yesterday's TLE, yes, it would be a surprise to any J6P that we're getting signal today.

A welcome surprise!


----------



## mcbeevee

Sixto said:


> Yep, 5/19, but still 8 days between now and then. Lots of time.


My predicted startup date/time is looking really good now!


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Some people just love conflict.


Not me, I love friendly b-slapes



> This is intended to be a friendly thread to track a new satellite, as we all look forward to lots of new HD, from our favorite TV provider.
> 
> Based on yesterday's TLE, yes, it would be a surprise to any J6P that we're getting signal today.
> 
> A welcome surprise!


I don't read anywhere the J6Ps were surprised, only you said you would be surprised I never considered you a J6P but I guess I have been wrong. Welcome to the J6P world.


----------



## Sixto

mcbeevee said:


> My predicted startup date/time is looking really good now!


Yep, 5/19 and 5/26 were the two choices, and with the comments of "sooner then soon", 5/19 was an excellent choice.


----------



## erosroadie

Sixto said:


> Yep, 5/19, but still 8 days between now and then. Lots of time.


Guess we should call our local Subway and order some *5*-dollar foot-longs for May 19...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Some people just love conflict.


There's a term for those kinds of people, tho' I can't really recall it off hand.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

LameLefty said:


> There's a term for those kinds of people, tho' I can't really recall it off hand.


Naked green haired plastic figurines??


----------



## LameLefty

Greg Alsobrook said:


> Naked green haired plastic figurines??


Yeah, that's it! Thanks!


----------



## FHSPSU67

Menehune???


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> There's a term for those kinds of people, tho' I can't really recall it off hand.


Speaking for yourself

BTW, the above phrase is borrowed from Alan, so don't blame me.

Can't wait to see the scientists be proven wrong soon


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> I don't read anywhere the J6Ps were surprised, only you said you would be surprised I never considered you a J6P but I guess I have been wrong. Welcome to the J6P world.


"would be" being the key phrase.

D12 showed far off yesterday, so logical assumption for anyone tracking this or any of the D1x threads over the years, would be that it's going to be a few days.

Earlier would be a nice welcome surprise.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Can't wait to see the scientists be proven wrong soon


Wonder who that might be (not me obviously).

Most people here make projections based on what they/we know at the time, then they/we change/update those projections (me included) when we get the next piece of information.

Which explains why the post#1 summary has been updated a zillion times! 

Projection: "an estimate of future possibilities based on a current trend"


----------



## ub1934

Looks like D12 is at 110.0129 W now


----------



## oldfantom

As I recall, a scientist making statements without all the facts is actually guessing. But these are educated guesses based upon experience and the partial data available. They call these guesses theories. The funny thing about theories, they can never be proven true. They can only be proven false. So the fact that there is a theory floated by a scientist that is wrong is not a bad thing. It means that the scientist is still working to understand the universe.

And.....

<Insert back to topic post following this one>


----------



## Newshawk

nd bronco fan said:


> Kinda strange, D12 must have pulled one of these to be in a testing location already........


He's an amateur. This is how it was done: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1933697


----------



## syphix

ub1934 said:


> Looks like D12 is at 110.0129 W now


No updated TLE in a bit, so the program/website you're using is calculating D12's location based on old information. I will tell you this: it is NOT at 110.


----------



## P Smith

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Nope.


"Test card" have nothing to do with transponders map ! 
*Any *receiver with current FW will show you signals if there any.

[Some ppl think they are knowledgeable in all aspects of the life and could post WAG cloaking its absence ]


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> "Test card" have nothing to do with transponders map !
> *ANY *receiver with current FW will show you signals if there any.


Well, of course *bold fonts* and *exclamation marks* carry lots of weight on the internet !!! Along with Occasional Inappropriate CAPITALIZATION !!! :lol:


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> Speaking for yourself
> 
> BTW, the above phrase is borrowed from Alan, so don't blame me.


:nono2:

~Alan


----------



## Hutchinshouse

syphix said:


> No updated TLE in a bit, so the program/website you're using is calculating D12's location based on old information. I will tell you this: *it is NOT at 110*.


I really hope it's not at 110.


----------



## bjdotson

oldfantom said:


> As I recall, a scientist making statements without all the facts is actually guessing. But these are educated guesses based upon experience and the partial data available. They call these guesses theories. The funny thing about theories, they can never be proven true. They can only be proven false. So the fact that there is a theory floated by a scientist that is wrong is not a bad thing. It means that the scientist is still working to understand the universe.
> 
> And.....
> 
> <Insert back to topic post following this one>


The word theory to a scientist is not what it is to most people. The word you are looking for is Hypothesis. To a scientist; a theory is a general statement which describes what is KNOWN to be true. Once all the details are worked out and known, it is promoted to a law. This is an oversimplification of course, but you get the general idea. A good example is the theory of evolution. The fact of evolution happening and pretty much the mechanics is well established. There are question about the rate of mutation, stimuli which triggers change, etc. The answers to these questions will refine the theory not re-define it.


----------



## GregLee

bjdotson said:


> A good example is the theory of evolution.


This is a counterexample to oldfantom's (standard) view, but it's the only counterexample. Since the last time I noticed some tension between n2yo's estimate and the guesses of posters here, ny2o was right, I'm guessing D12 is at 110 now. But that is just a theory.


----------



## Hdhead

I had to put money on it I would guess D12 is a 105 right now and drifting east.


----------



## curt8403

they are sneaking in the back door of the 103 slot.


----------



## Doug Brott

It likely overshot because it will overshoot geostationary on the way down (thus drifting back east) ..

Gonna speculate that it will kinda spiral (or corkscrew) into position with little fanfare.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Man I wish I understood more about orbital mechanics.


----------



## curt8403

Stuart Sweet said:


> Man I wish I understood more about orbital mechanics.


do they need to send an orbital mechanic up to fine tune the engines on D12


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> Man I wish I understood more about orbital mechanics.


Here you go.

Includes easy to memorize equations, too.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Hmm, am I getting false reading on my receiver? I showed the photos to prove I wasn't making it up but is it highly likely my receiver's getting false reading?


----------



## Hdhead

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Hmm, am I getting false reading on my receiver? I showed the photos to prove I wasn't making it up but is it highly likely my receiver's getting false reading?


Black Ops at Camp Drum.


----------



## dennisj00

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Hmm, am I getting false reading on my receiver? I showed the photos to prove I wasn't making it up but is it highly likely my receiver's getting false reading?


I would think there would be more reports . . . I haven't seen anything but 0s this morning.


----------



## bjdotson

ATARI said:


> Here you go.
> 
> Includes easy to memorize equations, too.


You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand this...oh wait. Nevermind.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ATARI said:


> Here you go.
> 
> Includes easy to memorize equations, too.


Oh well that makes it all crystal clear, doesn't it.


----------



## Sixto

#177 on the way ...


----------



## Sixto

Home Sweet Home!


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-11-2010 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	141
Inclination		0.088
RA of A. Node		56.915
Eccentricity		0.0000097
Argument of Perigee	141.141
Revs per day		1.00275878
Period			23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis	4	2 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B][SIZE="4"]35 785 x 35 786 km[/SIZE][/B]   <--- Geostationary
Element number / age	177 / 0 day(s)

Lon			[B][SIZE="4"]102.8021° W[/SIZE][/B]   <--- 103° Orbital Slot
Lat			0.0675° S
Alt (km)		35 785.080

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
177 05-11 12:00 35,785 x 35,786      1 +29.86H 133.48D [B]102.80°W[/B]  0.07°S  0.09°
176 05-10 06:08 36,001 x 36,043     42 +24.51H 132.24D 106.00°W  0.02°N  0.10°
175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°
182 05-07 14:56 36,003 x 36,044     41 + 9.09H 129.61D  98.01°W  0.07°S  0.10°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## LameLefty

Ah . . . 102.8º Feels like home.


----------



## Sixto

Looking great!

Looking awesome.

One of those wacky timestamps, but we might just be done tracking movement!


----------



## irock

nicely parked.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Looking great!


I think we're parked. Look at the orbital parameters . . . even that hypothetical "J6P" should be able to recognize a circular orbit.


----------



## stephenC

LameLefty said:


> Ah . . . 102.8º Feels like home.


I've always like 127.0.0.1.


----------



## zudy

Let the testing begin.


----------



## Sixto

All eyes on 103 (ca)!

Receivers across America will switch from watching/recording HD to watching 0's turn to 90's!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> All eyes on 103 (ca)!
> 
> Receivers across America will switch from watching/recording HD to watching 0's turn to 90's!


That timestamp is noon UTC. So perhaps those earlier screenshots of "blips" on transponders were accurate.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And there was much rejoicing.


----------



## reweiss

Stuart Sweet said:


> And there was much rejoicing.


Yeeaaa....


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> That timestamp is noon UTC. So perhaps those earlier screenshots of "blips" on transponders were accurate.


We've had that .50000000 and also .00000000 before, and it's usually followed shortly with an update, but still accurate.

We're in great shape.


----------



## rrrick8

irock said:


> nicely parked.


----------



## radiomandc

:hurah::icon_kiff:stickman::stickman::stickman::dance::dance::icon_da::icon_da::icon_bb::icon_bb::icon_hroc:icon_hroc:joy::joy::joy::joy:


----------



## Hdhead

#176 was probably bogus


----------



## Sixto

With almost 180 updates since 12/28/2009, it will be nice to rest. 

Yes, now tracking D10 but that's easy and relaxed.


----------



## Sixto

Now wouldn't be surprised with any blips.

Blip away!


----------



## thelucky1

Awesome! Exciting news! Thanks as always for updates Sixto.


----------



## dontknow

:joy:


----------



## nd bronco fan

I feel like a part of me is lost, now what do I do, what am i going to track, I have been coming to this thread since its inception in 08......its a bittersweet feeling!!!


----------



## Athlon646464




----------



## jefbal99

Standing ovation for Sixto, Lefty, and the Mods for the great work :joy:


----------



## Sixto

57% more HD capacity is just about here.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Why don't we have any new channels yet? I thought it was parked. I knew they wouldn't do what they promised........


----------



## Ed Campbell

WooHoo+1


----------



## zudy

So what will we talk about after D12 is up and running?, seems like this thread get's all the action.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> All eyes on 103 (ca)!
> 
> Receivers across America will switch from watching/recording HD to watching 0's turn to 90's!


Here's hoping no one gets burn in.


----------



## Sixto

cebbigh said:


> Here's hoping no one gets burn in.


Mine switches to the logo screen after a little while.


----------



## elixir26

Athlon646464 said:


>


Does anyone else feel like Moses after 40 years of wandering through the desert?


----------



## ATARI

FESTIVUS!!


----------



## Athlon646464

jefbal99 said:


> Standing ovation for Sixto, Lefty, and the Mods for the great work :joy:


+1


----------



## jrodfoo

Home Sweet Home.. 

Thanks for the info Sixto!


----------



## ICM2000

*MODS Off topic (related) please move as required*

U.S. cable TV threatened by drifting satellite

Published on May 11, 2010 12:35 PM |

Associated Press | A TV communications satellite is drifting out of control miles above the Earth, threatening to wander into another satellite's orbit and interfere with cable programming across the United States, the satellites' owners said Tuesday.

Communications company Intelsat said it lost control of the Galaxy 15 satellite on April 8, possibly because the satellite's systems were knocked out by a solar storm. Intelsat cannot remotely steer the satellite to remain in its orbit, so Galaxy 15 is creeping toward the adjacent path of another TV communications satellite that serves U.S. cable companies. 
Galaxy 15 continues to receive and transmit satellite signals, and they will probably interfere with the second satellite, known as AMC 11, if Galaxy 15 drifts into its orbit as expected around May 23, according to AMC 11's owner, SES World Skies.

AMC 11 receives digital programming from cable television channels and transmits it to all U.S. cable networks from its orbit 22,000 miles (36,000 kilometers) above the equator, SES World Skies said. It operates on the same frequencies as Galaxy 15.

"That fact means that there is likely to be some kind of interference," SES World Skies spokesman Yves Feltes told The Associated Press. "Our aim is to bring any interference down to zero."

He would not name any of the cable television channels or providers that could be affected or say how long the interference could last.

Feltes said one option would using AMC 11's propulsion system to shift that satellite about 60 miles (100 kilometers) away to an orbit that's still within its carefully prescribed "orbital box" but as far away as possible from Galaxy 15.

He said SES had other strategies under consideration but declined to provide details.

"We have all of our technicians, all of our specialists on this case," he said.

Both companies said there was no risk of an actual collision between the two satellites in space.

Intelsat said it was analyzing signals from Galaxy 15 daily in order to predict its trajectory and was trying to figure out if it can shut down the satellite's transmission so it would not interfere with AMC 11.

The company declined to comment on the value of Galaxy 15 but such spacecraft can be worth about $400 million (euro315 million) and cost about the same to launch.

Feltes said the two companies, both based in Luxembourg, were cooperating closely.

"They have tried numerous things to regain control of the satellite or to have it finally shut down," he said. "It needs some collaboration to bring the impact of this failure to an absolute minimum."


----------



## cebbigh

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Hmm, am I getting false reading on my receiver? I showed the photos to prove I wasn't making it up but is it highly likely my receiver's getting false reading?


How long was a signal present when it popped up?


----------



## dmurphy

Whoo hoo!!

Man, they burned some serious fuel moving that bird around ...

Too many pages to follow, but do we know if they used the XIPS system or if they used a traditional liquid propulsion system for the drift?

Not that it matters any, just curious!


----------



## Button Pusher

Thanks sixto for the updates!


----------



## Athlon646464

ICM2000 said:


> *MODS Off topic (related) please move as required*
> 
> U.S. cable TV threatened by drifting satellite
> 
> Published on May 11, 2010 12:35 PM |
> 
> ..............
> 
> "They have tried numerous things to regain control of the satellite or to have it finally shut down," he said. "It needs some collaboration to bring the impact of this failure to an absolute minimum."


Being discussed here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176612


----------



## loudo

The number channel on the "What's Hot List" is 9508. Just kidding. :lol:


----------



## HDTVFreak07

cebbigh said:


> How long was a signal present when it popped up?


Not long enough but I'm suspecting it is false reading. It is showing it on my other H20 as well but when I went to the signal meter for a certain transponder number to check, it never registered. It never did that before (showed any signal at all).


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> 57% more HD capacity is just about here.


Job well done, Sixto!


----------



## erosroadie

irock said:


> nicely parked.


:icon_da:

Looks like she backed into the slot between theose "purty" white lines on the first go. Who needs Driver's Ed!!!

Awaiting Festivus. Can someone begin a countdown clock now???
:goodjob:


----------



## Mavrick




----------



## bidger

jefbal99 said:


> Standing ovation for Sixto, Lefty, and the Mods for the great work :joy:


Agreed. I don't know who had the wilder ride: D12 or viewers of this thread.


----------



## HIGHWAY

light up on 103 ca


----------



## Sixto

The freakman may already get the award, but we may see some signal nationally in the next 24 hours. D10/D11 started sending signal very quickly. No channels, just signal.


----------



## cebbigh

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Not long enough but I'm suspecting it is false reading. It is showing it on my other H20 as well but when I went to the signal meter for a certain transponder number to check, it never registered. It never did that before (showed any signal at all).


Next time you see it there will be plenty of others here to verify it. 

The D11 thread was very similar. One person saw the signal intermittently on single TP's.


----------



## EaglePC

Sixto said:


> The freakman may already get the award, but we may see some signal nationally in the next 24 hours. D10/D11 started sending signal very quickly. No channels, just signal.


just signals i'll be there :lol:


----------



## syphix

Front page, anyone?

And thanks again for Sixto, LameLefty, et al who put up with all of us!


----------



## tunce

elixir26 said:


> Does anyone else feel like Moses after 40 years of wandering through the desert?


...but Moses never got to live in the promise land even his bones were fought over.


----------



## cebbigh

I wonder what percentage of us are staring at our signal meters?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

cebbigh said:


> I wonder what percentage of us are staring at our signal meters?


82.37%


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

cebbigh said:


> I wonder what percentage of us are staring at our signal meters?


Guilty.


----------



## jimmyv2000

cebbigh said:


> I wonder what percentage of us are staring at our signal meters?


my guess about 90%
I'm checking every hour


----------



## jefbal99

I'll start checking after I get home


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Go to lunch get some pizza, come back, D12 is home. What a day!

*YES&#8230;..!*

:icon_band


----------



## dcowboy7

Does anyone have an updated version of this chart ?

--------------------------------------------------------

Satellite transponders (32 total at 101º) (spotbeams dont matter 4,12,18,20,26,28) 
[Most of your standard definition channels are beamed from 101ºW] Sunday Ticket SD
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (3 total at 110º) (No spotbeams) 
[110ºW]
1-8 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA #
9-16 NA # NA # NA NA NA NA

Satellite transponders (11 total at 119º) (spotbeams dont matter 23,25,29,31) 
[local SD, Spanish package]
17-24 NA NA NA NA NA # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (14 total at 99º(c)) Sunday Ticket HD ch#702-715 - D11
[National HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA

Satellite transponders (16 total at 99º(s)) (All are spotbeams) - D11
[Local HD channels for some cities]
1-8 # # # # # # NA NA
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
[Note: these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(s)) (All are spotbeams) - D10
[Local HD channels for some cities]
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
[Note: these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (14 total at 103º(cb)) Sunday Ticket HD ch#716-717 - D10
[National HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(ca)) - D12
[National HD channels]
9-16 # # # # # # # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (10 total at 103º(s)) (All are spotbeams) - D12
[Local HD channels for some cities]
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (18 total at 103º(s)) - D12 - RB-2A (BSS)
[Spot beam bandwidth for "niche services"]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # # #
17-24 # # NA NA NA NA NA NA


----------



## tfederov

So is this good news? :lol:


----------



## mreposter

Sixto said:


> 57% more HD capacity is just about here.


Since D12 is (at least temporarily) taking over for D10, shouldn't that be more like 7% more?

Until D10 returns to service the rest of the new capacity is still just a possibility.


----------



## Alan Gordon

mreposter said:


> Since D12 is (at least temporarily) taking over for D10, shouldn't that be more like 7% more?
> 
> Until D10 returns to service the rest of the new capacity is still just a possibility.


That's probably why he said "just about here" instead of "here"! 

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, of course. Waking up tomorrow is just a possibility, until you do it. But let's figure that DIRECTV wouldn't be taking the chance moving one operational satellite if they didn't think it would work out.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Nice.


----------



## ivoaraujo

Great news!!!!!! :grin:

Sixto, when are you putting up the D14 anticipation thread? :lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, that will be a while. Until then we can still have fun in this thread.


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> That's probably why he said "just about here" instead of "here"!
> 
> ~Alan


Exactly why I worded it that way.

Certainly soon.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

What is all the excitement about because a hunk of space junk is floating around?

Give me more HD channels thats something to get excited about


----------



## Sixto

JACKIEGAGA said:


> What is all the excitement about because a hunk of space junk is floating around?
> 
> Give me more HD channels thats something to get excited about


Just like a sweet vacation, the first major challenge is getting there.


----------



## Skyboss

I just realized I've been coming here daily for about a month now to check on the status of a flippin' satellite.

I think I need a shrink....:icon_stup


----------



## hdthebest

Skyboss said:


> I just realized I've been coming here daily for about a month now to check on the status of a flippin' satellite.
> 
> I think I need a shrink....:icon_stup


and lives.....:lol:


----------



## DogLover

Skyboss said:


> I just realized I've been coming here daily for about a month now to check on the status of a flippin' satellite.
> 
> I think I need a shrink....:icon_stup


If that's what makes one need a shrink, I need one, too. (And perhaps several others here as well.)


----------



## jrodfoo

me three


----------



## spartanstew

So, it didn't crash and burn?


----------



## Doug Brott

spartanstew said:


> So, it didn't crash and burn?


Nope .. even got there earlier than some thought it might ..


----------



## ddobson

Doug Brott said:


> Nope .. even got there earlier than some thought it might ..


Is propganda. No see fire in sky weeks ago...

LOL


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> Nope .. even got there earlier than some thought it might ..


Yeah, whatever. We all we have is a TLE, and HDTVFreak07's signal screen. Both could very easily be faked. I believe that this conspiracy is just getting larger and larger. :nono:

:lol:


----------



## Carl Spock

Sixto said:


> Just like a sweet vacation, the first major challenge is getting there.


So D12 is now going on vacation? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: _Noooooooooo !!!_


----------



## FHSPSU67

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Not long enough but I'm suspecting it is false reading. It is showing it on my other H20 as well but when I went to the signal meter for a certain transponder number to check, it never registered. It never did that before (showed any signal at all).


I seem to remember something similar happening with D10 or D11, where signal strengths randomly popped in and out for "some" receivers. I believe that this was later attributed to a glitch in the receiver software. Anyone else remember this?


----------



## y2k02c5

Great, so when am I going to see some new HD Channels


----------



## Sixto

y2k02c5 said:


> Great, so when am I going to see some new HD Channels


5/19 6am ET, with the sunrise.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Carl Spock said:


> So D12 is now going on vacation? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: _Noooooooooo !!!_


Yep! To the Shark Nebula! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Carl Spock said:


> So D12 is now going on vacation? :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: _Noooooooooo !!!_


How else is D12 going to get great shots to show on the Travel Channel HD.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Sixto said:


> 5/19 6am ET, with the sunrise.


Thus begins the longest week ever...


----------



## Nighthawk68

So will my H23 that has not received the updated software be able to see D12?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Oh, look! I've got numbers on 103°(ca):

Sadly, they're all 0 :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Nitehawk^ said:


> So will my H23 that has not received the updated software be able to see D12?


If your Satellite Signal screen shows 103°(ca) then yes. Otherwise, why would your H23 _not_ have the most up-to-date NR software?


----------



## HoosierBoy

Nitehawk,

The firmware updates for the H-23's are rolling out. Western states started to get their's Monday morning. I got mine in the Chicago area this morning at 2:20am. It is on the way!


----------



## Nighthawk68

HoosierBoy said:


> Nitehawk,
> 
> The firmware updates for the H-23's are rolling out. Western states started to get their's Monday morning. I got mine in the Chicago area this morning at 2:20am. It is on the way!


I am about 6 hrs from Chicago in Northern Michigan. I still have the 0x434d software from Oct 23 9:34a (2009) Maybe I will get the update tonight or next few days.


----------



## steveholtam

Thanks to the powers that be for keeping us all up to date and educated! See you all in a year for D14!


----------



## erosroadie

Sixto said:


> How else is D12 going to get great shots to show on the Travel Channel HD.


So with a Festivus potential for 5/19, what are the running wagers on the 5 (not 4, not 6) HD channels that will be lit up? 
:computer:


----------



## Draconis

stephenC said:


> I've always like 127.0.0.1.





Stuart Sweet said:


> And there was much rejoicing.


:lol:

It's going to be interesting to see how the receivers handle the changeover when it goes live.


----------



## Sixto

erosroadie said:


> So with a Festivus potential for 5/19, what are the running wagers on the 5 (not 4, not 6) HD channels that will be lit up?
> :computer:


Lots of channel discussion in the other thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=175952


----------



## EaglePC

Sixto said:


> 5/19 6am ET, with the sunrise.


5/12 6am ET,103°(ca):

they're all 90's


----------



## P Smith

EaglePC said:


> 5/12 6am ET,103°(ca):
> 
> they're all 90's


1st - we need to see screen picture
2nd - mux with NULL packets will give the 'signal' also


----------



## bcltoys

I have ca at all 0.


----------



## Groundhog45

jefbal99 said:


> Standing ovation for Sixto, Lefty, and the Mods for the great work :joy:


Second that. And thanks for your patience during all of the waiting and complaining.


----------



## jimmyv2000

bcltoys said:


> I have ca at all 0.


same here been checking every hour today
its my day off


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Jeremy W said:


> Yeah, whatever. We all we have is a TLE, and HDTVFreak07's signal screen. Both could very easily be faked. I believe that this conspiracy is just getting larger and larger. :nono:
> 
> :lol:


Mine was no fake. Don't be an a--.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bcltoys said:


> I have ca at all 0.





jimmyv2000 said:


> same here been checking every hour today
> its my day off


Don't worry. They'll be up and down, on and off, for a little post movement testing and then BAM! We have HD. 

Mike


----------



## HIGHWAY

n2yo has d 12 at 111 are they right:nono2:


----------



## bjamin82

I still don't even see 103(ca)


----------



## Sixto

HIGHWAY said:


> n2yo has d 12 at 111 are they right:nono2:


They might be a little off.


----------



## Tibs

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Mine was no fake. Don't be an a--.


Pretty sure he was being overly sarcastic.


----------



## Skyboss

HoosierBoy said:


> Nitehawk,
> 
> The firmware updates for the H-23's are rolling out. Western states started to get their's Monday morning. I got mine in the Chicago area this morning at 2:20am. It is on the way!


This explains why one of our DVR was locked up when I got home and my wife was pissed it didn't catch her show... :eek2:


----------



## cebbigh

EaglePC said:


> 5/12 6am ET,103°(ca):
> 
> they're all 90's


I hope you are right on 5/12 6am ET.


----------



## Scott Kocourek

EaglePC said:


> 5/12 6am ET,103°(ca):
> 
> they're all 90's





P Smith said:


> 1st - we need to see screen picture
> 2nd - mux with NULL packets will give the 'signal' also





cebbigh said:


> I hope you are right on 5/12 6am ET.


cebbigh caught the date.


----------



## swaff

jefbal99 said:


> Standing ovation for Sixto, Lefty, and the Mods for the great work :joy:


Agree - Thanks to everyone who understands where to get the information and also to those who know how to use it


----------



## xmguy

YEA!  Now get those HD channels up! I'm running out of stuff to watch. :grin:


----------



## PA GIANTS FAN

fantastic job sixto and mods :goodjob:


----------



## cebbigh

Darn, baseball games coming on and my wife's recorder is recording something too. Do I take a risk and take a break from the signal strength page?

Decisions, decisions.:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

cebbigh said:


> Darn, baseball games coming on and my wife's recorder is recording something too. Do I take a risk and take a break from the signal strength page?
> 
> Decisions, decisions.:lol:


Easy choice .. Just hang out here while watching real TV .. Someone will let you know when it switches ..


----------



## Garry

JACKIEGAGA said:


> What is all the excitement about because a hunk of space junk is floating around?
> 
> Give me more HD channels thats something to get excited about


Without that "hunk of space junk", you wouldn't have more HD Channels when they light up.

That's to all those who provided good information in this thread. I am far from knowing anything about rocket science, but still enjoyed most of this thread.

I just checked my system setup, nothing on 103(ca) yet.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You guys are cracking me up.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

(Watch the water boiling  )


----------



## SteveHas

PA GIANTS FAN said:


> fantastic job sixto and mods :goodjob:


+1

now where is that pole?

:scratchin


----------



## mcees4life

what's the big deal about checking for a signal on 103?


----------



## seern

Well I just got home to this great news, and both of my units are recording until 11 pm EDT so I can't even check to see if 103ca has anything.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

mcees4life said:


> what's the big deal about checking for a signal on 103?


103°(ca) is the signal for D12.


----------



## Rob

dirtyblueshirt said:


> 103°(ca) is the signal for D12.


Oh, okay, I thought Directv had a new app that showed the balance of my bank account. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


----------



## mcees4life

dirtyblueshirt said:


> 103°(ca) is the signal for D12.


oh ok thanks. Mine has all 0's.


----------



## Rikinky

Forgive me for my lack of understanding here, but could it be possible that some HD Channels could light up tommorow?


----------



## Sixto

Rikinky said:


> Forgive me for my lack of understanding here, but could it be possible that some HD Channels could light up tommorow?


Nope. 5/19 6am ET hopefully.


----------



## cebbigh

mcees4life said:


> what's the big deal about checking for a signal on 103?


I can only answer for myself. It was a big thing to watch the count down during the Mercury and Apollo programs and anticipate the launch. To see the thing, even on TV. as it happened made it more real and make me feel a connection to it. I realize in the big picture of things that D12 is small potatoes. But there is a residual longing to see the first signal. Kind of like watching a sports event live versus pretending the recording is live just because you told everyone at work not to tell you the results ...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Home Sweet Home!


SWEET! 



Doug Brott said:


> .. even got there earlier than some thought it might ..


So D12 moved to 103 faster then expected?


----------



## max1

:allthumbsGood news more HD on the way.


----------



## am7crew

yay all 5 new HD channels coming!


----------



## sswheeler

Big goose egg on signals this mornin'! So who ever said 6AM ET, Thank you for playin'!


----------



## smiddy

DirecTV - 12, welcome to your new home. May your place of residence be comfortable and fruitful! :applause:


----------



## syphix

sswheeler said:


> Big goose egg on signals this mornin'! So who ever said 6AM ET, Thank you for playin'!


Wednesdays @ 6AM ET is the time when new channels arrive usually. We have big hints that NEXT Wednesday we will see a few (5) light up. THIS Wednesday may see signal blips/tests, but the engineers might be sleeping in a bit this morning after "parking" D12.


----------



## The Scotsman

Just checked at 7 am ET, nothing new.


----------



## Indiana627

I honestly wouldn't imagine any TPs to light up today until mid-day on the east coast since that would be around 9AM on the west coast where I presume the engineers are.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Indiana627 said:


> I honestly wouldn't imagine any TPs to light up today until mid-day on the east coast since that would be around 9AM on the west coast where I presume the engineers are.


That would make sense.

It only gets better from here - welcome to the sat family D12, and D10...get well soon.


----------



## syphix

Indiana627 said:


> I honestly wouldn't imagine any TPs to light up today until mid-day on the east coast since that would be around 9AM on the west coast where I presume the engineers are.


Or are they in Colorado? I thought someone theorized that those in control of testing are at Colorado's uplink, which means they're on Mountain time.


----------



## Indiana627

Ah, could be. But still with a 2 hour time difference, I still wouldn't expect until late AM on east coast. I'm sure they have 24x7 engineering staff, but I would bet the meat of the staff is still there during normal business hours, and I imagine they'd be the ones doing the testing of TPs. I could be wrong of course.

Do we know if Boeing has officially handed D12 off to D* yet? That should happen once it's parked right?


----------



## rrrick8

am7crew said:


> yay all 5 new HD channels coming!


Ah. Another tool for the chest.
:nono:


----------



## Sixto

From what we can decipher so far in the other thread, the initial mapping of D10 to D12 looks great.

While we may have assumed that D12 would do 5 HD per transponder, still wasn't 100% certain until we saw the implementation. With the switch to Ka-Hi, wasn't sure if the higher frequency might require a tweak to the encoding that might not be exactly the same as D10/D11.

Still can't be 100% certain until things go "live", but right now it looks like a direct one-for-one map of D10 to D12, with two extra transponders and 10 TEST channels.

It looks like the 5 new HD may go on one of transponders, and the other may be for extra bandwidth if needed, or maybe the June Cinema Service they've mentioned, or 3D, or maybe just 5 extra HD for a June roll-out if D10 takes some time.

Coming along nicely. I'm just lovin the thought of watching how the 80 slots are used. Big time capacity increase, with zero within-home change.


----------



## syphix

Sixto, do you think D* will move the channels BACK to D10 once the "amelioration" is completed, or would they just then use D10 to expand their HD channels?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Sixto, do you think D* will move the channels BACK to D10 once the "amelioration" is completed, or would they just then use D10 to expand their HD channels?


I'm thinking they'll leave them on D12, but there may be a reason why they want the core HD on D10. The engineers may have a preference. There may also be some earth-based infrastructure reason.


----------



## P Smith

Still waiting for official handover the D12 from Boeing to DTV.


----------



## cebbigh

It's 9am Denver time, 8am in California. Still holding steady with all zeroes across the board. Bet there is a LOT of activity going on behind the scenes right now. Should be an eventful day, even if we don't find out about it right away.


----------



## Hdhead

P Smith said:


> Still waiting for official handover the D12 from Boeing to DTV.


Who is going to tell you when that happens?


----------



## EaglePC

11 AM East Coast nothing.not that exciting as back when the D11 / when we hardly had no HD.need to work on my new home


----------



## P Smith

cebbigh said:


> It's 9am Denver time, 8am in California. Still holding steady with all zeroes across the board. Bet there is a LOT of activity going on behind the scenes right now. Should be an eventful day, even if we don't find out about it right away.


Could you tell me what part of DTV freq map (in L-band) the D12 signals should be coming ? 
I could check it by spectrum analyzer. I mean 250-750 MHz or 1650-2150 MHz ? LHCP or RHCP ? 22 KHz tone is on or off ?


----------



## doctor j

Hdhead said:


> Who is going to tell you when that happens?


Boeing and Directv usually have press releases on their investor news sites.

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Hdhead said:


> Who is going to tell you when that happens?


Umm, are you angry ? It is OFFICIAL business.


----------



## doctor j

P Smith said:


> Could you tell me what part of DTV freq map (in L-band) the D12 signals should be coming ?
> I could check it by spectrum analyzer. I mean 250-750 MHz or 1650-2150 MHz ? LHCP or RHCP ? 22 KHz tone is on or off ?


My understanding of the stack plan puts it at 1650-2150 after LNB, RHCP AND LHCP and 103 sat slot comes thru TONE ON.

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Bummer, the PSA-37D doesn't have tone generator. And no one DTV receiver has loop F connector to drive by it.


----------



## doctor j

Several of the 103 high slots will be active from D-10 SPOT slots.

Doctor j


----------



## Hdhead

P Smith said:


> Umm, are you angry ? It is OFFICIAL business.


Umm, angry? No. Just asked a simple question.:whatdidid


----------



## P Smith

You are a member here for three years, perhaps you did read threads about D10 and D11, at least this one - the moment of transfer a control been mentioned a few times. And you point a finger to me in the question full of tense.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, folks, tone it down a little please. I'm asking nicely, once again, that personal arguments be taken to private messaging.


----------



## mattgwyther

I am surprised that DirecTV had the bandwidth to add 16 CONUS transponders at 103.

Please correct my thinking here... 

1. DirecTV's current dish/reciever deployment can see their licensed KA/KU spectrum @103

2. A transponder takes a fixed amount of the EM spectrum. Thus there is a fixed maximum number of transponders at each slot/spectrum. 

3. Channel bandwidth within each transponder can vary... right now it looks like 5 HD channels per transponder.

4. Transponders can be used as spot beams with the same frequency reused in various parts of the country, provided the beams don't overlap.


So if the D10, D12, SW1 cluster will have space to add 16 CONUS transponders will this now cap out the amount of spectrum DirecTV has at 103?

If 103 had the space for 16 additional transponders wouldn't the same hold true for 99?

This would mean DirecTV could launch a KA/KU bird to 99 to add +/-16 transponders to their 99/101/103 array without having to deploy the new equipment required for the BSS spectrum.


What am I missing?


----------



## Sixto

mattgwyther said:


> I am surprised that DirecTV had the bandwidth to add 16 CONUS transponders at 103.
> 
> Please correct my thinking here...
> 
> 1. DirecTV's current dish/reciever deployment can see their licensed KA/KU spectrum @103
> 
> 2. A transponder takes a fixed amount of the EM spectrum. Thus there is a fixed maximum number of transponders at each slot/spectrum.
> 
> 3. Channel bandwidth within each transponder can vary... right now it looks like 5 HD channels per transponder.
> 
> 4. Transponders can be used as spot beams with the same frequency reused in various parts of the country, provided the beams don't overlap.
> 
> So if the D10, D12, SW1 cluster will have space to add 16 CONUS transponders will this now cap out the amount of spectrum DirecTV has at 103?
> 
> If 103 had the space for 16 additional transponders wouldn't the same hold true for 99?
> 
> This would mean DirecTV could launch a KA/KU bird to 99 to add +/-16 transponders to their 99/101/103 array without having to deploy the new equipment required for the BSS spectrum.
> 
> What am I missing?


Spaceway-1 (SW1) had allocated to it the entire granted Ka-Hi (19700-20200) frequency range.

SW1 and D12 will now share the Ka-Hi range, with SW1 using the lower end (19700-19890), and D12 using the higher end (19890-20200 MHz).

It's been discussed for years that it's quite possible that the range could be more effectively utilized, which will now be the case.


----------



## Hdhead

P Smith said:


> You are a member here for three years, perhaps you did read threads about D10 and D11, at least this one - the moment of transfer a control been mentioned a few times. And you point a finger to me in the question full of tense.


Man, take a Valium.


----------



## tkrandall

mattgwyther said:


> I am surprised that DirecTV had the bandwidth to add 16 CONUS transponders at 103.
> 
> So if the D10, D12, SW1 cluster will have space to add 16 CONUS transponders will this now cap out the amount of spectrum DirecTV has at 103?
> 
> If 103 had the space for 16 additional transponders wouldn't the same hold true for 99?
> 
> This would mean DirecTV could launch a KA/KU bird to 99 to add +/-16 transponders to their 99/101/103 array without having to deploy the new equipment required for the BSS spectrum.
> 
> What am I missing?


As I understand it, SW1 and SW2 are essentially Ka Hi birds. They are/were used primarily for spots. SW1 has essentially gone unused for some time now and as such the Ka-Hi spectrum at 103w has been very underutilized. D12 being designed to use Ka-Hi for CONUS is a new state of affairs for 103w. D12 also having KA-Lo spot transponders will allow it, working along side D10 and its Ka-lo spots, to cover more LIL territory.

I suppose they could do the same at 99w with another bird like D12. As to what this all utlimately means for the future of SW1 and would mean for SW2 if they did them same at 99w, I do not know.


----------



## mrsdrgn

All this talk over D12 and all for the addition of 30 HD channels. And out of 30 only 5 have any good use. Meanwhile the other guys are adding HD like crazy. I tell you it is really tempting to switch. Compare the HD lineup. I tell you after D12 and D10 is fully operational they better start adding a looooooot of HD. If not goodbye. We are missing a lot of HD channels.


----------



## JeffBowser

Only 5 out of 30 have good use? Pray tell how you make that assessment on my behalf?



mrsdrgn said:


> All this talk over D12 and all for the addition of 30 HD channels. And out of 30 only 5 have any good use. Meanwhile the other guys are adding HD like crazy. I tell you it is really tempting to switch. Compare the HD lineup. I tell you after D12 and D10 is fully operational they better start adding a looooooot of HD. If not goodbye. We are missing a lot of HD channels.


----------



## mrsdrgn

JeffBowser said:


> Only 5 out of 30 have good use? Pray tell how you make that assessment on my behalf?


On an average that's how. You can't honestly tell me that you care for more than 5 out of all the 30. Can you?


----------



## Sixto

mrsdrgn said:


> All this talk over D12 and all for the addition of 30 HD channels. And out of 30 only 5 have any good use. Meanwhile the other guys are adding HD like crazy. I tell you it is really tempting to switch. Compare the HD lineup. I tell you after D12 and D10 is fully operational they better start adding a looooooot of HD. If not goodbye. We are missing a lot of HD channels.


It's a 57% increase in national HD capacity, with up to 80 slots of new capacity, assuming the same 5-to-1 maximum ratio as D10/D11.

It will be up to the business team, as to how they best want to use the new HD capacity.

I'm assuming that they fully understand the competitive threats, and hopeful that they will make the best decisions, but the first step and great news is to get the capacity online.


----------



## Athlon646464

mrsdrgn said:


> I tell you after D12 and D10 is fully operational they better start adding a looooooot of HD. If not goodbye. We are missing a lot of HD channels.


There is no doubt that they will. It's the reason for the D10 fix with D12's help. The slight delay will be well worth it, you'll see!


----------



## LameLefty

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, folks, tone it down a little please. I'm asking nicely, once again, that personal arguments be taken to private messaging.


Stuart, one of those involved has his PMs turned off.


----------



## sigma1914

mrsdrgn said:


> On an average that's how. You can't honestly tell me that you care for more than 5 out of all the 30. Can you?


Yes, easily. I can say I'll watch all of them at least a little.


----------



## mrsdrgn

Sixto said:


> It's a 57% increase in national HD capacity, with up to 80 slots of new capacity, assuming the same 5-to-1 maximum ratio as D10/D11.
> 
> It will be up to the business team as to how they best want to use the new capacity.
> 
> I'm assuming they fully understand the competitive threats and hopeful that they will make the best decisions, but the first step and great news is to get the capacity online.


I agree with you, but they are moving very slow. And the HD that was announced is so ridiculous. I want to know how many people are happy with all 30 hd. Oh and I forgot that the 30 will be added over a long summer. They can't even turn them on all at one time. Exception GolTV which is not available till August. Where are the BBCHD, FOX Soccer HD, National Geo HD, History International HD, etc...


----------



## sigma1914

mrsdrgn said:


> ...Where are the BBCHD, FOX Soccer HD, National Geo HD, History International HD, etc...


I don't care for those. They are useless.

See how dumb that sounds?


----------



## Sixto

mrsdrgn said:


> I agree with you, but they are moving very slow. And the HD that was announced is so ridiculous. At first it was 200 hd, than 70 more hd and the announcement was only 30 hd which are so ridiculous. I want to know how many people are happy with all 30 hd. Oh and I forgot that the 30 will be added over a long summer. They can't even turn them on all at one time. Exception GolTV which is not available till August. Where are the BBCHD, FOX Soccer HD, National Geo HD, History International HD, etc...


Best to continue the discussion in the other thread where you also posted the same.


----------



## BetterThanMost

mrsdrgn said:


> Where are the BBCHD, FOX Soccer HD, National Geo HD, History International HD, etc...


National Geo HD is at channel 276 and has been so for some time.


----------



## mrsdrgn

BetterThanMost said:


> National Geo HD is at channel 276 and has been so for some time.


Sorry, I meant National Geo Wiild HD. But Sixto is right moved the discussion to another thread.


----------



## HarleyD

mrsdrgn said:


> All this talk over D12 and all for the addition of 30 HD channels. And out of 30 only 5 have any good use. Meanwhile the other guys are adding HD like crazy. I tell you it is really tempting to switch. Compare the HD lineup. I tell you after D12 and D10 is fully operational they better start adding a looooooot of HD. If not goodbye. We are missing a lot of HD channels.


And how much of the HD the "other guys" have added (that you are apparently so impressed by) have any good use?

If you are that impressed by the other providers offerings I URGE you to switch. You should not be paying for a service that you find insufficient.

And in 4 months when D* has overtaken and surpassed the "other guys" you can drop by and share how you feel about that.


----------



## HoTat2

mattgwyther said:


> I am surprised that DirecTV had the bandwidth to add 16 CONUS transponders at 103.
> 
> Please correct my thinking here...
> 
> 1. DirecTV's current dish/reciever deployment can see their licensed KA/KU spectrum @103 ...


Actually the "current" base of DirecTV satellite dish/receivers can only see the Ka-band "hi" or "A" portion (19.7-20.2 Ghz) and "lo" or "B" portion (18.3-18.8 GHz) at 103, not the Ku-band. Same for 99 degrees.



> 2. A transponder takes a fixed amount of the EM spectrum. Thus there is a fixed maximum number of transponders at each slot/spectrum.


Yes, depending upon the transponder bandwidth established by the FCC for the Ku band or the satellite operator for the Ka-band which the FCC leaves to their choice.



> 3. Channel bandwidth within each transponder can vary... right now it looks like 5 HD channels per transponder.


No the transponder bandwidth is actually fixed to a certain amount and the number of programs it can carry depends on the format, compression, data overhead, etc., required at the power level the transponder operates with.

These considerations make for about 5 HD channels per 36 MHz wide tp. used on the Ka-band at 99 and 103.



> 4. Transponders can be used as spot beams with the same frequency reused in various parts of the country, provided the beams don't overlap.


True, but it is spotbeams using the same frequency(s) which may not overlap or be adjacent to one another at any given time.



> So if the D10, D12, SW1 cluster will have space to add 16 CONUS transponders will this now cap out the amount of spectrum DirecTV has at 103?


Actually yes, once both the A and B portions of the Ka-band are fully utilized, there will be no additional spectrum available there. Thus the need for BSS and new LNBs to expand beyond the present Ku and Ka bands once full at 103.



> If 103 had the space for 16 additional transponders wouldn't the same hold true for 99?


Yes, because as with 103 the Ka-band hi or A portion used by the Spaceway satellites is heavily underutilized.

The problem is there are no more satellites of D10, 11, and 12's generation in development as far as known. D12 seems to be the last one for the foreseeable future.



> This would mean DirecTV could launch a KA/KU bird to 99 to add +/-16 transponders to their 99/101/103 array without having to deploy the new equipment required for the BSS spectrum.


Again it would only be for Ka-band, not Ku. And the "+/-16" national or CONUS transponders actually comprise 8 RHCP and 8 LHCP co-located frequency transponders.

But again there is no evidence any other birds like D12 are coming.


----------



## mattgwyther

tkrandall said:


> As I understand it, SW1 and SW2 are essentially Ka Hi birds. They are/were used primarily for spots. SW1 has essentially gone unused for some time now and as such the Ka-Hi spectrum at 103w has been very underutilized. D12 being designed to use Ka-Hi for CONUS is a new state of affairs for 103w. D12 also having KA-Lo spot transponders will allow it, working along side D10 and its Ka-lo spots, to cover more LIL territory.
> 
> I suppose they could do the same at 99w with another bird like D12. As to what this all utlimately means for the future of SW1 and would mean for SW2 if they did them same at 99w, I do not know.


So it looks like we need to wait and watch...

1. D12 hand-off and put into operation
2. D10 Amelioration and return to operation
3. What is SW1 used for... DirecTV Cinema/VOD/Etc.

This should give a clue to the future of 99...

I know this seams a little premature, but it's only a matter of time before D10/D12 fill up with more HD/3D/1080p/Etc. Considering the lead time for a new satellite, I'm trying to figure out if an addition bird at 99 is the answer or expanding into the BSS band. If the answer is expanding into the BSS band, I need to plan my personal equipment's life cycles accordingly.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> The problem is there are no more satellites of D10, 11, and 12's generation in development as far as known. D12 seems to be the last one for the foreseeable future.


As announced at the financial meeting last week or so, the Board of Directors has approved D14 but wasn't particularly specific about it. I personally expect D14 to be a hybrid Ka/BSS bird, like D12, but with more BSS capability, depending on the operational results of D12's BSS use. This would probably go to 99, since Directv already has Ka and BSS licenses for those slots.


----------



## evan_s

doctor j said:


> Several of the 103 high slots will be active from D-10 SPOT slots.
> 
> Doctor j


The existing Ka Hi spots would be from the Spaceway sat not D10. You should also be able to tell which you were seeing based on the frequency and the size of the tp. Spaceway sats run their tps at ~62mhz while D10/11/12 tps are 40 mhz.


----------



## doctor j

evan_s said:


> The existing Ka Hi spots would be from the Spaceway sat not D10. You should also be able to tell which you were seeing based on the frequency and the size of the tp. Spaceway sats run their tps at ~62mhz while D10/11/12 tps are 40 mhz.


You are correct.

I was referring to the presence of spot beams in the KA High range at 103.

These indeed are from Spaceway 1.

PID data shows only 2 active channels thus there might not be much activity. Originally setup as 6 TPN's each about 1 1/2 times wider than the KA low transponders of D-10 & D-11.:blush::blush::blush:

Doctor j


----------



## evan_s

LameLefty said:


> As announced at the financial meeting last week or so, the Board of Directors has approved D14 but wasn't particularly specific about it. I personally expect D14 to be a hybrid Ka/BSS bird, like D12, but with more BSS capability, depending on the operational results of D12's BSS use. This would probably go to 99, since Directv already has Ka and BSS licenses for those slots.


A split Ka Hi/BSS sat destined for 99 makes a lot of sense. It would be able to add some immediate capacity via the KA high just like d12 is and would meet their FCC requirements to launch a sat for and start using the 99 BSS slot. I don't know if DirecTV would be able to do the full 24 BSS tps (I'm guess they will be conus) and 16 Ka Hi tps while staying in the limits of the sat design so we might see less Ka hi tps.

It's unclear what will be required, in the way of new lnbs or other equipment, to receive the bss signals. At the very least we know that the non SWiM stack plan will require some changes to fit additional spots in.


----------



## doctor j

evan_s said:


> It's unclear what will be required, in the way of new lnbs or other equipment, to receive the bss signals. At the very least we know that the non SWiM stack plan will require some changes to fit additional spots in.


I suspect that, given the recent push toward all SWM installs, MRV etc that the old stack plan/KU systems are "Legacy" and will be phased out.
In the distant future all satellite integration will be via SWM.

Doctor j


----------



## evan_s

doctor j said:


> I suspect that, given the recent push toward all SWM installs, MRV etc that the old stack plan/KU systems are "Legacy" and will be phased out.
> In the distant future all satellite integration will be via SWM.
> 
> Doctor j


Only problem is they can't do that. The SWiM system is non-expandable because it is only providing a small subset of all the possible tps available. SWM8/16/32 all require a legacy dish with a legacy stack plan to allow them to receive all the possible tps and to allow expansion for MDU and other large installs. Limiting the bss sats to SWM LNBs only would currently cut off any installs that required more than 8 tuners and that isn't going to happen.

Off hand, the easy option would seem to be to use the 2 flex ports as additional inputs and assuming they can pass the full 250 - 2150 mhz range that would nicely handle all three of the bss allocations for both polarities. It would require a new lnb with a 6 port switch or multidish setups to feed all 6 inputs at once.


----------



## Sixto

we need to get to 1 million views. 

back to topic.


----------



## Jeremy W

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Mine was no fake. Don't be an a--.


I put the laughing smiley at the end to indicate sarcasm. Don't be an a--.


----------



## Lord Vader

Knock it off or I'll ban both of you.


----------



## cebbigh

Sixto said:


> we need to get to 1 million views.
> 
> back to topic.


Great use of font size. :lol:


----------



## ptuck874

Sixto said:


> we need to get to 1 million views.
> 
> back to topic.


or 10,000 posts


----------



## Alan Gordon

I'm wondering if DirecTV is in the midst of testing out spot-beam transponders.

I'm not sure I remember this many TPNs with signals on 103(s)...

~Alan


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm wondering if DirecTV is in the midst of testing out spot-beam transponders.
> 
> I'm not sure I remember this many TPNs with signals on 103(s)...
> 
> ~Alan


I'm only seeing signals on TPNs 16, 19, 20, and 21. No different than before.


----------



## sswheeler

I'm only seeing signals on TPNs 15, 17, 18 21, 22, 23 and 24 here in Iowa from 103(s).


----------



## Alan Gordon

dirtyblueshirt said:


> I'm only seeing signals on TPNs 16, 19, 20, and 21. No different than before.


Given the geographical distance between GA and CA, that may not mean anything.

On any given day, I can get 6 TPNs on 99(s). Depending on the weather, I may get 7.

However, on any given day, I get considerably less on 103(s). Usually 2-3 depending on the weather. Today, I'm getting 6 TPNs.

~Alan


----------



## tonyd79

Nice time to have PIP and two receivers on same TV. One to watch baseball, one to watch 103(ca).

Kidding.

I think.

If I were to get a Harmony remote, would it have a button that says "Watch satellite readings?"


----------



## Athlon646464

tonyd79 said:


> If I were to get a Harmony remote, would it have a button that says "Watch satellite readings?"


I would not be at all surprised if someone has programmed that macro already! :lol:


----------



## raoul5788

Athlon646464 said:


> I would not be at all surprised if someone has programmed that macro already! :lol:


Jeez, what kind of a nut job would do that? :lol:


----------



## Athlon646464

raoul5788 said:


> Jeez, what kind of a nut job would do that? :lol:


Approaching 9,300 posts, and you ask that? :uglyhamme


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Athlon646464 said:


> I would not be at all surprised if someone has programmed that macro already! :lol:





raoul5788 said:


> Jeez, what kind of a nut job would do that? :lol:


I'm not exactly what you would call a nut job, but.... 

Mike


----------



## jrodfoo

a little off topic but what is this?!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/ptech/05/12/rogue.satellite.tv/index.html?hpt=T2


----------



## Davenlr

jrodfoo said:


> a little off topic but what is this?!
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/ptech/05/12/rogue.satellite.tv/index.html?hpt=T2


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176612&highlight=zombiesat


----------



## jrodfoo

Davenlr said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176612&highlight=zombiesat


Thanks! I'll head over there..


----------



## taz291819

I'm getting a signals on 103(ca). In the 60's and 70's for me, but that's about right, I'm shooting through a 3 foot gap between two pine trees.


----------



## jrodfoo

I'm seeing a few 90s 12 14 and 16 TPs

89 on 18 92 on 20 88 on 22 and 94 on 24


----------



## lgsvette

Getting readings on even numbered transponders in upper 80's and low 90's on 103ca.


----------



## Sixto

I have signal!


----------



## HDYankee

Just checked, getting signals on 103ca on 7 TP's in the 93 to 95 range right now!


----------



## danpeters

Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
   0   42    0   95    0   91    0   94

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
   0   91    0   93    0   89    0   94


----------



## Dradran

I am also getting a signal on 103 (ca) on the even transponders. Transponder 10 was at 48 and the rest were at 84 or so.


----------



## RAD

I have readings on 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 and 24, all in the 90's


----------



## texasbrit

7 TPs live, low to mid 90s for me (same TPs as RAD).


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

In the flesh!


----------



## dwrats_56

I have signal on the even transponders ranging from 33 to 92.

WOOO HOOOO !!!!!


----------



## jimmyv2000

Dradran said:


> I am also getting a signal on 103 (ca) on the even transponders. Transponder 10 was at 48 and the rest were at 84 or so.


me too pic coming up


----------



## HIGHWAY

103 ca 7 low 85 high 95


----------



## T-Hefner

Sweeet....getting 90s also from 103ca....getting close....


----------



## jrodfoo

lookin good, moose!


----------



## HDYankee

Just checked, getting signals on 103ca on 7 TP's 95 to 97 right now!


----------



## I WANT MORE

That's a good BINGO.


----------



## Food Lion Man

Will we see any visible testing? I remember with D10 they were testing in the 9000 channel numbers?


----------



## loveshockey

channel 9509 is a go!!!


----------



## I WANT MORE

Damn, Mine are low. Only the 60's and 70's. Need to get up there and adjust.


----------



## irock

signals here.  hot damn.


----------



## jimmyv2000

proof
sorry its blurry i did this so fast


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   95    0   95    0   95

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   95    0   95    0   95    0   95


----------



## Hdhead

all 90's here!


----------



## Sixto

Update #178 on the way ... but not sure we care


----------



## Hutchinshouse

In low 70's for me. I'll be on the roof this weekend.


----------



## jimmyv2000

get excited!!!!!!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

:joy::balloons::icon_da::blowout::new_popco

Needs more party icons.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

So... if the evens are lit, Why do I show a 0 in TPN 10? is that a spot beam?


----------



## sigma1914

86 to 89...Good enough for me.


----------



## loveshockey

Hutchinshouse said:


> In low 70's for me. I'll be on the roof this weekend.


shouldn't we wait till things settle down first...it just came online...


----------



## loveshockey

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So... if the evens are lit, Why do I show a 0 in TPN 10? is that a spot beam?


nope...RED BUTTON RESET...


----------



## LameLefty

I have signals from 87 - 91 on even Tps between 12 and 24. 

Could be better (my 103(cb) signals are about 3 - 5 points higher) but I'll take them.


----------



## RawisTheGameHhH

mine are mid 80s and high 70s; is that good?


----------



## jerrylove56

Hdhead said:


> all 90's here!


Same here. Should there be searching for sat on 9509


----------



## loveshockey

where's my email notification from Sixto?


----------



## Hdhead

dirtyblueshirt said:


> So... if the evens are lit, Why do I show a 0 in TPN 10? is that a spot beam?


It's broke. :eek2: Doomsday


----------



## Sixto

This will most likely be the last update posted! 


Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-12-2010 10:21:22
Orbit # at Epoch	142
Inclination		0.112
RA of A. Node		65.315
Eccentricity		0.0000579
Argument of Perigee	163.225
Revs per day		1.00266182
Period			23h 56m 10s (1436.17 min)
Semi-major axis		42 166 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 791 km
Element number / age	178 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.7797° W
Lat			0.0645° S
Alt (km)		35 786.230

[B][U] # [/u] [u] Date[/u] [u]GMT  [/u] [u]Perigee[/u]  [u]Apogee[/u] [u]  Gap [/u] [u]Chg-Hrs[/u] [u]  Day  [/u] [u]  Long  [/u] [u]  Lat  [/u] [u]Inclin[/u][/B]
178 05-12 10:21 35,786 x 35,791      5 +22.36H 134.42D 102.78°W  0.06°S  0.11°
177 05-11 12:00 35,785 x 35,786      1 +29.86H 133.48D 102.80°W  0.07°S  0.09°
176 05-10 06:08 36,001 x 36,043     42 +24.51H 132.24D 106.00°W  0.02°N  0.10°
175 05-09 05:37 36,002 x 36,044     42 +25.01H 131.22D 102.96°W  0.03°N  0.10°
184 05-08 04:36 36,003 x 36,044     41 +13.67H 130.18D  99.82°W  0.05°N  0.10°

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164555"]Post#1[/URL] has the complete history. The last 5 updates are above.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Mine is showing 0 93 0 93 0 95 0 94
0 95 0 94 0 95 0 95. Is there something wrong with my receiver?


----------



## loveshockey

loveshockey said:


> where's my email notification from Sixto?


nevermind..just got it...


----------



## mike_augie

77 -79 here in oklahoma


----------



## Sixto

Feel free to edit-cut/paste the following template, as we compare signals.


Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   95    0   95    0   95

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   95    0   95    0   95    0   95


----------



## loveshockey

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Mine is showing 0 93 0 93 0 95 0 94
> 0 95 0 94 0 95 0 95. Is there something wrong with my receiver?


hell, no....and nothing wrong with your dish...


----------



## Avder

mid 80s to low 90s here. How long until the first channel goes live on it?


----------



## Hoosier205

Right now I have:


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Mine is showing 0 93 0 93 0 95 0 94
> 0 95 0 94 0 95 0 95. Is there something wrong with my receiver?


Nope, only the evens are lit... you're perfect.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Avder said:


> mid 80s to low 90s here. How long until the first channel goes live on it?


One week.


----------



## Sixto

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Nope, only the evens are lit... you're perfect.


even's except tp10


----------



## Indiana627

I've got signal on even TPs 12-24 with signal strength ranging from 43 to 69.


----------



## loveshockey

dirtyblueshirt said:


> One week.


that would be the first NEW channel...

the first channel on it will be SOONer as D10's stuff is moved over..


----------



## Sixto

Avder said:


> mid 80s to low 90s here. How long until the first channel goes live on it?


5/19 6am ET.


----------



## Athlon646464

95's & 96's for me, except for 22 on 10........


----------



## Hdhead

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Mine is showing 0 93 0 93 0 95 0 94
> 0 95 0 94 0 95 0 95. Is there something wrong with my receiver?


although you have #10 lit, can you confirm


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Clear skies, sunny and 63° here on the beach.



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   86    0   85    0   86

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   86    0   90    0   87    0   92


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Hdhead said:


> although you have #10 lit, can you confirm


Some do, some don't. strange...


----------



## loveshockey

think we'll do 10,000 posts before tomorrow?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

I'm so excited! Yes, I know. What's a few more HD channel. To me, it's a HUGE deal! HD channels are the only channels I watch. No SD stuff. My housemate, however, likes to watch TruTV and I just wish they are in HD. I always end up watching in another room. All HDTV's in this house. No more SD.


----------



## jsmuga

Mine range from 79 to 73. They average about 10-12 lower than 103 (cb)


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Hdhead said:


> although you have #10 lit, can you confirm


Oh yeah, its lit. I checked back every time and its lit on TSP 10.


----------



## LameLefty

dirtyblueshirt said:


> Some do, some don't. strange...


I remember something similar during transponder testing for D10. Initially, signal levels varied up and down a bit, and some transponders were being reported by people while others still had zeros.


----------



## Athlon646464

My 10 varies from 0 to 22, all others (even numbers) are 95 & 96 steady.

9509 shows a correct sat setup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## lgsvette

Have a 78 on 10 and all 90's on the rest in northern Oklahoma. Exciting!!


----------



## Sixto

Staying rock solid 95 here, all even, except TP10.


----------



## Sandy

even transponders lit 
tp 10 lowest @51
the rest are 82-85


----------



## lzhj9k

Cloudy and Overcast here in NE Indiana


Code:
DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
0 0 0 93 0 94 0 94

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
0 95 0 95 0 94 0 95


----------



## Hdhead

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Oh yeah, its lit. I checked back every time and its lit on TSP 10.


Damn Black Ops again.


----------



## LameLefty

Athlon646464 said:


> 9509 shows a correct sat setup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Me too. "Correct HD Dish Setup. 103 A-Band Even."


----------



## HDTVFreak07

0 92 0 93 0 95 0 94
0 95 0 95 0 95 0 95


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Mine in So cal:


Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   72    0   73    0   71

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   72    0   74    0   75    0   76


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Staying rock solid 95 here, all even, except TP10.


Mine are actually drifting up and down by up to 3 points. Maybe it's the humidity (54% and rising as the afternoon temps fall).


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Hutchinshouse said:


> Mine in So cal:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 0    0    0   72    0   73    0   71
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 0   72    0   74    0   75    0   76


Looks awfully low.


----------



## Sixto

Hutchinshouse said:


> Mine in So cal:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 0    0    0   72    0   73    0   71
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 0   72    0   74    0   75    0   76


It's a shame that Travel Channel HD requires a signal of 77 or above. Contract requirement.


----------



## LameLefty

Hutchinshouse said:


> Mine in So cal:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 0    0    0   72    0   73    0   71
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 0   72    0   74    0   75    0   76


You're gonna need a tweak if you want that TravelHD.


----------



## Hdhead

HDTVFreak07 said:


> 0 92 0 93 0 95 0 94
> 0 95 0 95 0 95 0 95


Must be the Watertown spotbeam.:grin:


----------



## paragon

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0   22    0   86    0   82    0   85

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   81    0   84    0   80    0   86

The lowest I have on 103(cb) is 88


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> You're gonna need a tweak if you want that TravelHD.


Easy to do? Never done it before....


----------



## tcusta00

This doesn't look good. 



Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
   0    0    0   71    0   61    0   68

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
   0   60    0   66    0   60    0   66


----------



## tonyd79

Wow, they are moving fast now.

My numbers very much like my 103b numbers. Woo hoo!


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

tcusta00 said:


> This doesn't look good.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> 
> TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
> 0    0    0   71    0   61    0   68
> 
> TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
> 0   60    0   66    0   60    0   66


Mine are low too. I'm getting 70's.


----------



## Laker44

Cloudy skies with more rain on the way.



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0   28    0   91    0   88    0   91

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   87    0   87    0   86    0   86


----------



## tonyd79

Hutchinshouse said:


> Easy to do? Never done it before....


Not hard. Just a few things to adjust. If you have protection plan, they will come peak for free. They also replaced wires for me and a new LNB as part of the visit (maybe just the tech decided to do that himself).


----------



## henryld

80 on tp10 & 90's on the balance. 9509 OK.


----------



## hidefman

North Alabama:


Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   88    0   83    0   86

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   83    0   85    0   80    0   86


----------



## houskamp

tp10 is all over the place

and tp 16 now


----------



## GregLee

jsmartin99 said:


> Mine range from 79 to 73. They average about 10-12 lower than 103 (cb)


Here in Hawaii, mine start at 72 on the even Tps, as compared with 68 and up for 103(cb).


----------



## SParker

Here is what I'm getting now.


----------



## RD in Fla

Rock solid 96 and 97 on TPs 12,14,16,18,20,22 and 24 here in sunny SW Fla.


----------



## syphix

Western Minnesota with clouds and rain:


Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
   0   48    0   92    0   89    0   90

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
   0   89    0   91    0   89    0   92

Any reason why TP10 is so low? Anyone else's TP10 low?

EDIT: WOW!! Lots more just lit up!!


Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  92   49   93   91   89   88   92   91

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  88   89   89   91   88   89   94   92


----------



## jimmyv2000

i'm wondering if tp 10 is a spot?
people in tx are reprting 90's 
here in Nh i'm at 48


----------



## gslater

Mine are all coming in between 77 and 80 on all evens except 10.


----------



## rebelDog62

All my signals are 88 or higher most are 91 or 94.


----------



## say-what

slightly overcast and 83 here in Metairie, LA



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
   0    0    0   92    0   94    0   95

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
   0   94    0   95    0   95    0   96


----------



## HDTVFreak07

jimmyv2000 said:


> i'm wondering if tp 10 is a spot?
> people in tx are reprting 90's
> here in Nh i'm at 48


I'm in NY and getting 90's on TSP 10.


----------



## tonyd79

17 just went up for me


----------



## tonyd79

Correction, all live but 10.


----------



## dgsiiinc

all but 10 up for me.


----------



## rayjoe2

73-90 with nasty thunder storms in area


----------



## jimmyv2000

ch 9508 is a go


----------



## RawisTheGameHhH

jimmyv2000 said:


> ch 9508 is a go


what does this mean?


----------



## Magic71

9-24 all have signal for me now with 76 on tp10 being my lowest


----------



## tonyd79

jimmyv2000 said:


> ch 9508 is a go


Yup


----------



## jimmyv2000

odds are on


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Now it's showing:
95 93 93 92 95 95 91 93
94 95 78 94 95 95 95 95


----------



## bgilga

I have 0 on tp10, but all the others range between 85-92.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
0 40 0 89 0 88 0 92


TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
0 88 0 93 0 85 0 91


Got this on the tail end of a big storm


----------



## tomgossert

TP 9-16 80 0 84 82 79 77 81 79
TP 17-24 77 76 74 79 77 76 82 79

Clouds & Rain in South Central PA


----------



## LameLefty

Yep, I have signal on all Tps except 10. Weirdness.

Might be time to get that old AT-9 replaced though. My signals range from a low of 77 on Tp 19 up to 91 on Tp 23 right now.


----------



## HoosierBoy

Strong levels in NW Indiana. All in the high 80's to Mid 90's.


----------



## jimmyv2000

tp 19 is weak at 75


----------



## say-what

now all but Tp 10 and 90-96


----------



## davemayo

I have all upper 80s and 90s except for 1 at 24 (tp10) and another at 73 (tp19).


----------



## syphix

Perhaps 10 is a spot beam? Or something *gulp* wrong with it?? I'm showing 50 on TP 10, 80's-90's all all others (9-24).


----------



## SParker

Now everything in the 90's except TP10 which is in the 30's.


----------



## tonyd79

jimmyv2000 said:


> tp 19 is weak at 75


Other than 10 (0), 19 is my weakest but not by much. Nice solid signal all around.


----------



## say-what

jimmyv2000 said:


> ch 9508 is a go


as is 9509


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
  95    0   96   95   96   95   96   95

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP22[/U] [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  95   94   95   95   95   95   95   95


----------



## Hoosier205

I've got mid-high 90's on all tp's with the exception of 0 on tp10 and an 88 on tp19


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 95    0   96   95   96   95   96   95
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP22[/U] [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 95   94   95   95   95   95   95   95


Nice!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 95    0   96   95   96   95   96   95
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP22[/U] [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 95   94   95   95   95   95   95   95


I'm jealous. Whoever tweaked your dish needs to come see me.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

All but 10.



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
  78    0   91   86   85   85   88   86

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  83   85   83   90   84   87   89   92


----------



## inkahauts

Got signals on all but 17, and they are all over the board...


----------



## DaveC27

9 -24 are all lit up ranging from one nasty 74 (19) to 89 but we are about to get rain in Chicago


----------



## oldschoolecw

Sixto said:


> Feel free to edit-cut/paste the following template, as we compare signals.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 0    0    0   95    0   95    0   95
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 0   95    0   95    0   95    0   95


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca) 
TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16 
96 29 93 95 99 95 96 95 
TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24 
92 95 91 95 96 95 94 95


----------



## tominvt

Good to go here.
96 48 95 92 95 93 94 92
92 92 77 89 94 91 94 91


----------



## merchione

clear skies in El Paso, TX 



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
 80   0    86   82   90   86   85   81
[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  89   86   76   81   89   87   88   83


----------



## henryld

tonyd79 said:


> Other than 10 (0), 19 is my weakest but not by much. Nice solid signal all around.


+1


----------



## Laker44

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
  88    25   91   90   88   87  88  89

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP22[/U] [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  85   86   76   86   82   84   85   83


----------



## RAD

Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  87    0   92   92   90   93   90   95

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  90   95   82   95   94   95   95   95


----------



## cw3

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
  98    0   98   95   97   94   97   96

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP22[/U] [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  96   95   95   96   96   95   99   98


----------



## lzhj9k

Now all are lit up with the exception of 10

Range from a low of 81 (tp19) to high of 95


----------



## jimmyv2000

tominvt said:


> Good to go here.
> 96 48 95 92 95 93 94 92
> 92 92 77 89 94 91 94 91


our readings our similar


----------



## steveken

Mine are as follows:

95 86 95 95 95 95 95 95
95 96 85 96 95 95 96 97


----------



## R0am3r

HDTVFreak07 said:


> Now it's showing:
> 95 93 93 92 95 95 91 93
> 94 95 78 94 95 95 95 95


I wish I had these numbers. Mine are 60s and 70s. Of course, the D10 signals are also weak. Time to call D* and use this protection plan that I pay for.


----------



## David Ortiz

First post in this thread...

88 52 92 88 85 82 89 89
84 83 85 86 86 84 89 86

TP 10 is fluctuating quite a bit. I just saw it at 29 and now it is 67.


----------



## danpeters

Cloudy, somewhat rainy



Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  96   51   96   95   95   91   95   94

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  93   91   84   92   92   89   95   92

Fluctuation on some transponders (4-5 points)


----------



## BennyGregg

Here in East Texas at about 6:45 PM CST:

DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
97 38 95 95 96 95 95 95

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
95 95 85 95 95 95 96 95


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

It should go without saying, but channel 9508 now shows everything working A-OK


----------



## gslater

I don't pay for the protection plan but I've been considering calling for an alignment. Just not sure though. It's not as good as it could be but it's not all that bad either. It's odd though. 101 and 119 are in the 97 to 100 range across the board while 101 and 103 are hovering between 78 and 83.


----------



## Sandy

Texas Panhandle

tp9-16 76 53 79 83 74 82 75 82
tp17-24 71 83 67 81 69 81 76 81


----------



## Alan Gordon

Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U]  [U]TP14[/U]  [U]TP15[/U]  [U]TP16[/U]
 74   56   72   72   72    72    69    71

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U]  [U]TP22[/U]  [U]TP23[/U]  [U]TP24[/U]
 70   70   65   70   69    69    70    70


----------



## Davenlr

Transponder 10 is a dud. Return the sat to boeing for a refund


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Hutchinshouse said:


> Mine in So cal:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> [/B]
> [U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
> 0    0    0   72    0   73    0   71
> 
> [U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
> 0   72    0   74    0   75    0   76


Seems like they're starting to spool up for me. I'm now approaching the 80's.


----------



## Hdhead

Interesting that many have some or all signal on #10. I have a rock solid 0 all the time.


----------



## henryld

Davenlr said:


> Transponder 10 is a dud. Return the sat to boeing for a refund


Ive seen it in the low 80's here in the Houston area. Some one suggested it might be a spot beam?


----------



## syphix

Since HDTVFreak is showing 90's for TP10 in Watertown, NY, is there anyone near him that can verify his readings (i.e., showing similar)?


----------



## Stewpidity

South Fl. Overcast

TP 9-16 91 0 95 94 94 89 92 95
TP 17-24 91 91 81 95 92 89 96 95


----------



## jimmyv2000

Hdhead said:


> Interesting that many have some or all signal on #10. I have a rock solid 0 all the time.


i'm guessing its a spot.
remember theres still testing and tweaking to be done before HD channels go live


----------



## espnjason

I don't think mind is as good as a lot of others.


----------



## Karen

A little lower than what I have on the other satellite, but not terrible...


----------



## ptuck874

Near Chesapeake Bay in VA, little cloudy, storm just went by :

DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
88 0 95 95 92 91 93 95

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
90 90 94 94 91 90 95 95


ALL SET SON!!!


----------



## Davenlr

jimmyv2000 said:


> i'm guessing its a spot.
> remember theres still testing and tweaking to be done before HD channels go live


Why would a spot be on the Conus transponder page? Its bouncing between 77 and 88 in central Arkansas.


----------



## syphix

Can one transponder be a spot beam to TWO locations? HDTVFreak in New York is showing 90's on TP10, but steveken in Arkansas is showing high numbers, too (80's).


----------



## Mr D

i got correct HD set up on channel 9509, but some weird its happening this channel ( 9509 ) starts flickering every few second like when u lose signal on regular channels some kind of hicup btw signal strenght here in NJ are between 75 and 87 cloudy day here in the area.


----------



## LameLefty

Here's an interesting finding . . .

Tp 19 is around 77 - 79 on the HR22 in my living room. All others are between 86 - 91 right now.

On the HR24-500 in the bedroom, that transponder is 88 right now, but all the others are in the same range. These two boxes are being fed from separate SWiM8 modules as well.


----------



## henryld

syphix said:


> Can one transponder be a spot beam to TWO locations? HDTVFreak in New York is showing 90's on TP10, but steveken in Arkansas is showing high numbers, too (80's).


80's for me in Houston as well.


----------



## gslater

I'm solidly 0 on TP10 as shown here:

80 0 83 80 83 80 83 80

83 80 70 80 81 80 83 80


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Here's image of mine... from H20: 
(sorry, upload failed)


----------



## megachirops

Central Florida (just north of Orlando)



Code:


[B]DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
[/B]
[U]TP09[/U] [U]TP10[/U] [U]TP11[/U] [U]TP12[/U] [U]TP13[/U] [U]TP14[/U] [U]TP15[/U] [U]TP16[/U]
  96   60   96   96   95   94   95   96

[U]TP17[/U] [U]TP18[/U] [U]TP19[/U] [U]TP20[/U] [U]TP21[/U] [U]TP2[/U]2 [U]TP23[/U] [U]TP24[/U]
  94   94   83   96   93   93   96   97


----------



## mcbeevee

Looking good here in East TN! 


Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  94    0   92   91   95   93   94   92

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  94   95   91   94   92   95   95   95


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Image from my H20


----------



## stansher

I live near Portland Or. I am getting signals from 75 to 85 on all TPs except 9 at 45 ad 10 at 0. I have also noticed 3 new live spots on 103(s) which were 0 before TPs 22,23 and 24 at 100,100 and 91. I now show 6 live TPs on 103(s).


----------



## Wesro

South Alabama. 

All TPs in middle to high 90's except for tp 19 which is at 75.


----------



## shy007

Guys I do not post much but I have admit this has been a fun ride watching this D12 discussion. Great work by some great guys. Thanks!


----------



## mcees4life

my numbers are all in the 30's and 40's. I aint worried, if my hd channels not coming in next week then i'll be concerned


----------



## paragon

Update from cloudy Central PA (lowest reading on 103(cb)/99(c) is 88)



Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  89   17   91   86   86   80   87   85

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  84   80   77   83   82   80   91   85


----------



## yosoyellobo

All 90's except a 74 on 10.


----------



## ctpd845

Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  91    0   92   89   92   89   89   94

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  91   92   80   92   92   91   94   92


----------



## shy007

All 90s here as well except 0 on TP 10


----------



## Hdhead

mcees4life said:


> my numbers are all in the 30's and 40's. *I aint worried,* if my hd channels not coming in next week then i'll be concerned


Might be time to just show a little concern. Glad its you and not me, I'd be pulling my frickin hair out.:grrr:


----------



## Doug Brott

Maybe Tp10 isn't ready to be lit up ..


----------



## jazzyd971fm

St.Louis-Cloudy

Sat 103 (ca)

TP 9-16
92 92 89 89 89 91 87 90

TP 17-24
88 90 91 89 85 86 91 86

Looking Good !!!


----------



## MikeW

High 70's to low 80's in Tucson. TP 10 is showing 60.


----------



## Wesro

TP 10 is fine. I have had 95 on it for the past 30 minutes.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I'm jealous. Whoever tweaked your dish needs to come see me.


After D10 lit up, had them come and tweak for perfection. Been good since early 2007. Also, SWM helps a little, HR24-500 seems a little more consistent then H21's I've checked.


----------



## jefbal99

Lansing, MI Heavy Clouds

Off H21-200 (HRs are recording stuff)



Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  93   21   94   92   93   90   92   92

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  92   91   82   93   92   92   95   95


----------



## ctaranto

About 25 miles west of Boston, currently cloudy:

78 0 80 57 76 50 75 53
74 48 68 50 74 47 77 47

I also need a tweak, as 103(cb) is in the 70's and low 80's.


----------



## jjeeffff

Near St Louis...

9-16

95 60 92 93 92 94 89 94

17-24

89 93 79 92 89 91 93 94


----------



## Hdhead

Doug Brott said:


> Maybe Tp10 isn't ready to be lit up ..


From just a snapshot it seems most have at least some signal from 10 with the exception of those of us in the northern midwest to central midatlantic states who have 0.


----------



## Sixto

BEWARE.

It's you're checking signal, nothing is recording.

BEWARE.


----------



## freerein100

ctpd845 said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
> 
> TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
> 86    0   86  62   86   62   83   62
> 
> TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
> 86   63   83   65   86   66   89   68


In SW Louisiana clear skies cb in 80 and 90 range(these are my readings I quoted the table)


----------



## Davenlr

Hdhead said:


> From just a snapshot it seems most have at least some signal from 10 with the exception of those of us in the northern midwest to central midatlantic states who have 0.


They can use it for HBOW, TMCW, and all those other WESTS


----------



## pdawg17

86 25 94 94 87 86 94 93

85 83 89 92 86 85 94 91

This is in San Carlos, CA (Bay Area peninsula)

What's interesting so far for me is that some of the data points fluctuate quite a bit...the first number goes from 74-94...and the second point is around 25 (spotbeam?)


----------



## FussyBob

In northeastern PA.....

10 is 0, 19 is 87, all the rest 95-98....YES!


Bob P.


----------



## David Ortiz

Will D12's spot TPs appear on the 103s screen, along with the spot TPs from Spaceway 1 and D10?


----------



## Sixto

David Ortiz said:


> Will D12's spot TPs appear on the 103s screen, along with the spot TPs from Spaceway 1 and D10?


Have thought so.


----------



## dwcolvin

Sixto said:


> BEWARE.
> 
> It's you're checking signal, nothing is recording.
> 
> BEWARE.


It also clears the buffer


----------



## Sixto

Just closed out the last TLE update for D12 in post#1.

No future D12 location updates will be posted, after almost 180 updates, over 134 days!


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Since my transponder 10 is showing mid to high 90's could it be we might finally get HD local channels???? Doubtful. Our market's awful small with the exception of Fort Drum.


----------



## bjamin82

Fort Lauderdale

96 0 98 96 97 95 98 95
97 95 88 95 97 95 99 96


----------



## Mr D

just checking signal on the other sat why tp 28 on sat 101 is 0? same thing wit tp 23 and 31 on sat 119


----------



## Stewpidity

Sixto said:


> Just closed out the last TLE update for D12 in post#1.
> 
> No future D12 location updates will be posted, after almost 180 updates, over 134 days!


Great Job & thanks for all your hard work


----------



## Sixto

Stewpidity said:


> Great Job & thanks for all your hard work


Thanks.

Very much looking forward to the break.

Will track D10 but not nearly the same focus.


----------



## loudo

Central Maine
96 86 95 92 95 91 94 91
95 92 91 89 85 91 95 92


----------



## Inches

San Mateo, CA


----------



## jdspencer

Binghamton, NY
96 19 96 96 96 95 96 95
95 95 86 96 95 95 97 96

TP10 is fluctuating up to 20 and TP 19 sometimes shows 95.

Seems pretty good to me. I suspect that they are playing with TP10.


----------



## Tom Z

DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
94 84 92 90 92 92 89 94

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
89 92 80 92 93 92 95 95


Cloudy in Plainfield, IL


----------



## moghedien

never mind...


----------



## ajtmcse

Rochester, NY - Zip 14611

95 91 94 93 94 91 92 91
91 89 79 89 86 89 91 89


----------



## NR4P

bjamin82 said:


> Fort Lauderdale
> 
> 96 0 98 96 97 95 98 95
> 97 95 88 95 97 95 99 96


Nearly identical to yours, also in S. Florida.


----------



## lwilli201

I am getting 72 on TP 10, 103(ca) and it is the lowest signal strength.


----------



## doabbs

Milton, NH - Zip 03852
Partly Cloudy
103 (ca)
9-16: 95 69 92 88 92 86 90 89
17-24:91 88 85 89 88 89 92 91


----------



## Sixto

We have D12 signal, tomorrow MRV with DECA goes national, H24/HR24's go national ... what a week!


----------



## mcees4life

Sixto, all my numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Is there a serious issue with my dish? Or is still the preliminary stage where the numbers are fluctuating? My other satellite readings are fine.


----------



## LameLefty

mcees4life said:


> Sixto, all my numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Is there a serious issue with my dish? Or is still the preliminary stage where the numbers are fluctuating? My other satellite readings are fine.


I'm not Sixto but I'd be concerned. What are your signals on 103(cb) for comparison?


----------



## cebbigh

Stewpidity said:


> Great Job & thanks for all your hard work


Exactly what I wanted to say but done better.

Totally respect the work you put into this and your level headed attitude with a bunch of whacko's (myself included).


----------



## Mr.X

mcees4life said:


> Sixto, all my numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Is there a serious issue with my dish? Or is still the preliminary stage where the numbers are fluctuating? My other satellite readings are fine.


I'm in the same boat, low 30's at best.


----------



## Hdhead

It would seem that #10 is definitely a spot with 90's in northern ny, texas, alabama, and 0's in Boston, PA, south florida, wisconsin and somewhere in-between in most other regions. Don't you think?


----------



## psweig

DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
95 84 94 94 93 92 93 92


TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
90 91 74 92 89 90 90 93

WooHoo


----------



## AllenE

SF Bay Area all 50's and 60's, but noticed some other sats same, so looks like I need some dish work. Sevice guy will be here Friday.


----------



## Sixto

mcees4life said:


> Sixto, all my numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Is there a serious issue with my dish? Or is still the preliminary stage where the numbers are fluctuating? My other satellite readings are fine.


103 (cb) is ok?

Weather ok?

As we did with D10 and D11, wouldn't actually do anything until channels go "live", assuming the problem persists, but it doesn't look good.


----------



## Sixto

Hdhead said:


> It would seem that #10 is definitely a spot with 90's in northern ny, texas, alabama, and 0's in Boston, PA, south florida, wisconsin and somewhere in-between in most other regions. Don't you think?


Certainly looks that way.


----------



## flexoffset

North Alabama 103ca in 50's -70's with transponder 10 at zero.
103cb in 70's and 80's
sky is clear as a bell and clear line of sight to space.


----------



## syphix

My question before wasn't answered: can one transponder spot beam two locations?


----------



## dontknow

im in texas and i got 0 on TP 10


----------



## bamaweather

syphix said:


> My question before wasn't answered: can one transponder spot beam two locations?


Yes.


----------



## richall01

Sixto said:


> Certainly looks that way
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Hdhead
> It would seem that #10 is definitely a spot with 90's in northern ny, texas, alabama, and 0's in Boston, PA, south florida, wisconsin and somewhere in-between in most other regions. Don't you think?
> .


I'm getting 97 on TP 10 in south Ga.


----------



## tonyd79

All the same as before (90s on all but 17) and now TP10 is showing low 70s.


----------



## Hdhead

Well, #10 just went from 0 to 72. First signal from 10.


----------



## Magic71

yes my signal from tp10 jumped from 76 to 91/92 now also


----------



## shaun-ohio

all of mine are in there high nineties now


----------



## Sixto

Same here. TP10 just went to 71.


----------



## Ed Campbell

76 to 94, with 76 being #10 - mostly high 80's into 90's

That's a big *WOO-HOO* for the solid science running this thread!


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Went for a drive. TPN 10 now shows 86. All signals range 83-93


----------



## mcrutland

All the transponders look great here.


----------



## LameLefty

Tp 10 is now 86 in middle Tennessee (up from 0 earlier) all my signals now range from 86 - 92. Not too bad - about 2 - 3 points less than 103(cb) but they'll do.


----------



## syphix

Damn engineers are messin' with us!!

Can transponders suddenly be changed from spot to CONUS?


----------



## texasbrit

All TPs 9-24 mid 90s here in DFW


----------



## BWELL316

Mechanic Falls, ME (04256)

95 94 92 92 91 92 88 91
92 93 81 89 95 93 95 91


----------



## Mr D

TP shows 85 now here in NJ before had a big 0


----------



## V'ger

shaun-ohio said:


> all of mine are in there high nineties now


In Dayton, all are in 90s except 17 and 21, which are 89 and 87 respectively.


----------



## MrDad0330

Harrisburg, PA

ch 9509: Correct HD Sat setup

9-16: 93 82 94 85 90 79 91 83
17-24: 89 79 75 83 88 81 95 86


----------



## bobojay

Cool!


----------



## machavez00

Phoenix, all between 86 and 89. On a side question, why am I getting 0's for tp's 4 and 12 on the 101? someone posted this screen shot


----------



## LameLefty

machavez00 said:


> Phoenix, all between 86 and 89. On a side question, why am I getting 0's for tp's 4 and 12 on the 101?


Spotbeams not aimed at your area.


----------



## davemayo

All in the 90s except for tp19 which is at 73.


----------



## jdspencer

Tps 4, 12, 18, 20, 26, and 28 are spot beams on 101.
Perfectly normal for these to be zero, low or very high depending on location.


----------



## Sixto

*After all these months, a pretty sight!*


----------



## BigRick10

wow mine look nothing like that. I get 50's and a professional installed my system


----------



## loveshockey

Sixto said:


> *After all these months, a pretty sight!*


why don't you gloat a bit...


----------



## Sixto

loveshockey said:


> why don't you gloat a bit...


It was part of the deal to create the thread. 

BTW, those signals are on a HR24-500, the other receivers are slightly less.


----------



## Sixto

Been playing around with this a little more. The HR24-500 is perfect. Rock solid 94-97.

The HR20-700's and H21-200's, are definitely different, between 89-95.

Wonder if HR24-500 has better tuner.


----------



## bgilga

All transponders lit up now. Number 10 is at 89. Mine range from 85-94


----------



## de_runner

Bakersfield, CA 93309

76 69 79 74 76 62 77 74
76 70 69 73 75 70 78 73

Looks a little low, maybe need a dish tweak?


----------



## HDYankee

95 or better on all my boxes.:grin:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> We have D12 signal, tomorrow MRV with DECA goes national, H24/HR24's go national ... what a week!


YES! Gosh this reminds me of when D10 and D11 went live.


----------



## webby_s

Sixto said:


> Been playing around with this a little more. The HR24-500 is perfect. Rock solid 94-97.
> 
> The HR20-700's and H21-200's, are definitely different, between 89-95.
> 
> Wonder if HR24-500 has better tuner.


I have something recording on my 24-500 so I will check after that but my HR21-100 are not the best in the world but not bad. Nothing like you have. Will report back.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> YES! Gosh this reminds me of when D10 and D11 went live.


The next 7 days are a big time Festivus. 

Receivers, DECA, MRV, and the first D12 channels, all within 7 days.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Just closed out the last TLE update for D12 in post#1.
> 
> No future D12 location updates will be posted, after almost 180 updates, over 134 days!


Awesome job sir! I know many people appreciate all your efforts, as only one of the crowd, thanks so much! If ever we do meet, remind me to buy you a beverage (or two) of your choice!


----------



## njohn2121

de_runner said:


> Bakersfield, CA 93309
> 
> 76 69 79 74 76 62 77 74
> 76 70 69 73 75 70 78 73
> 
> Looks a little low, maybe need a dish tweak?


I'm showing almost the exact same numbers. 101, 110 and 103 (cb) are hall high 80s and 90s on mine too. Adjustment in order?


----------



## webby_s

njohn2121 said:


> I'm showing almost the exact same numbers. 101, 110 and 103 (cb) are hall high 80s and 90s on mine too. Adjustment in order?





de_runner said:


> Bakersfield, CA 93309
> 
> 76 69 79 74 76 62 77 74
> 76 70 69 73 75 70 78 73
> 
> Looks a little low, maybe need a dish tweak?


I would say wait this out guys. Nothing to get to worked up about, but after a week or so, then get back to us. Officially right now we arn't getting anything from the bird anyways.


----------



## mcees4life

Sixto and Lefty, I am in DC and we were having bad weather this evening. Although its dark, it has been cloudy and raining. My 103 ca and cb are both in the 30's or 40's. We'll see, i will keep you guys updated


----------



## smiddy

{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
9 - 16|95|94|91|90|94|92|91|92
17 - 24|91|93|88|93|91|91|91|94
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}
O'Fallon, Missouri​


----------



## bobnielsen

Signals here:

89 85 95 85 95 84 94 86
95 89 91 85 95 81 95 88

Looooking good!


----------



## Avder

My 103 cb signals range from 86 to 93, while my 103 ca signals are now 82 to 92, all of them on.


----------



## BigJ52

davemayo said:


> All in the 90s except for tp19 which is at 73.


Same here basically, wonder what the deal is with TP19?


----------



## kevinwmsn

Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))

94 95 89 94 91 93 88 94 
88 94 77 92 86 86 88 94 

Theodore, AL


Transponder 19 is a bit low, maybe its a spotbeam?


----------



## onan38

103(ca) have all upper 80's and 90's here.


----------



## Indiana627

Code:
DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - *103 (cb)*

TP01 TP02 TP03 TP04 TP05 TP06 TP07 TP08
86 87 783 85 82 85 84 86

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14
84 83 85 86 85 85

Code:
DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - *103 (ca)*

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
85 77 89 79 85 71 86 72

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
84 67 76 69 85 72 88 76

All measured on HR21-200 with current NR software in ZIP 13850 with overcast skies.

I'm _really_ jealous of some of the other signal strengths I've seen posted here tonight. Once D12 is live, I think I'll be calling for an alignment and a swap out of my Slimline 5 with a Slimline 3 as I think they are easier to align and thus get better results. I just hope I don't lose signal before I can get an alignment, especially once they shift all of D10's load to D12.


----------



## Hoosier205

103(ca)


> 88 88 93 92 94 88 94 95
> 92 93 83 95 94 95 96 95


103(cb)


> 95 95 94 94 94 94 92 92
> 92 92 91 91 94 93


----------



## Tigerman73

All mine are reading in the mid to high 90s except for transponder 19 which is showing 86. Everything else is 95-97.


----------



## Food Lion Man

Will we be able to see any test channels before the channels are added on the 19th? I remember with D10 were we able to.


----------



## obladi6703

Jackson, MS, here:

Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
96 97 95 96 95 95 92 96
93 96 80 95 93 95 95 95
Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
97 95 96 92 95 95 95 93
96 95 95 94 96 95


----------



## murry27409

NW NJ, Cloudy
DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)
Tuner 1
89 86 91 81 91 77 88 73

87 71 72 74 73 74 90 72

Tuner 2
89 78 91 68 89 60 88 51

87 44 74 40 88 41 90 30


----------



## gregftlaud

Ft Lauderdale here. All TP's 92-96


----------



## hdgreg

San Francisco bay area. All TPS in the 70s.


----------



## rynorama

Eastern PA all 85-97


----------



## Go Beavs

SW Washington...

103(ca)

77 81 86 85 91 86 85 87
89 92 77 86 91 93 90 90

Getting better!!


----------



## Rakul

Wow my dish must be nice and locked on then:



Code:


DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
  95   95   95   95   94   94   95   96

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
  92   95   83   96   94   95   95   97


----------



## carl6

Had not checked this thread since this morning - wow a lot of posts and excitement. As of 9:54 pm PDT, I'm showing 103(ca) as:
90 92 95 95 96 95 95 95
95 95 91 92 95 95 95 95


----------



## Dolly

I hadn't checked this thread either. My numbers are mainly all in the 80's, but we have had terrible weather here so I think I'm going to wait and see how things go later on.


----------



## colt45allstar

Hi everyone new here.

Southwest Missouri, Joplin to be exact.

My numbers on 103 (ca) are awful.

51,48,46,47,45,48,44,42,
42,43,33,40,40,41,32,36

Is that cause for concern?

As a note we do have a threat of a thunderstorm.. but would that really effect things that much? 

On another note 101 is showing mostly upper 80's with a few lower 90's and 103 (cb) is mostly mid 50's.


----------



## barryb

103(ca) in Santa Cruz, CA

78 81 85 85 77 78 81 82
74 78 75 78 74 77 80 77


----------



## azarby

colt45allstar said:


> Hi everyone new here.
> 
> Southwest Missouri, Joplin to be exact.
> 
> My numbers on 103 (ca) are awful.
> 
> 51,48,46,47,45,48,44,42,
> 42,43,33,40,40,41,32,36
> 
> Is that cause for concern?
> 
> As a note we do have a threat of a thunderstorm.. but would that really effect things that much?
> 
> On another note 101 is showing mostly upper 80's with a few lower 90's and 103 (cb) is mostly mid 50's.


Looks like you need a dish re-alignment.


----------



## Jeremy W

Food Lion Man said:


> Will we be able to see any test channels before the channels are added on the 19th? I remember with D10 were we able to.


Highly unlikely. D10 was breaking new ground. We never got any early test channels with D11, and there's no reason to believe D12 will be any different.


----------



## colt45allstar

I was afraid that would be the answer, thanks for the reply.

I guess I'll try to call them Thursday sometime and get something set up, thankfully I've got the protection plan... just hope they can get someone here before they migrate the channels from D10 over.

Another quick question for you, or anyone else that cares to reply.

There is a tree in the backyard that has a branch that is a little close for comfort, how likely would you say that it's what's causing the issues with signal from D12, while not having much of any effect on the other satellites?

I'm really hoping it's not the tree branch, as I don't currently have the money to get the tree trimmed (roommate's between jobs unfortunately) the person who lived here prior had dish network and never had any issues that I'm aware of and we haven't really had any issues with DirecTV up to this point.



azarby said:


> Looks like you need a dish re-alignment.


----------



## HoTat2

My numbers here for 103(ca) on a SlimLine-5 (non-SWM type) in South L.A. on a clear evening near midnight PST



Code:


9-16   67   69   82   78   79   64  80   81
17-24  79   79   74   82   81   82  86   86

So-so I guess. Particularly displeased though with the 60s readings for Tps. 9, 10 and 14.

103(cb) are all in the mid to high eighties with two Tps. at 90 and 91.

Just had a dish realignment BTW, and made sure the tech used the dither method to fine tune the Ka-band ...


----------



## clevfandad

My Bay Area Numbers are similar. Seems California getting short-changed. Maybe just last to be tweaked.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Solid 103 (ca) levels here as of this morning...D12 is active.

WOO HOO!


----------



## TDK1044

Atlanta, GA at 6AM this morning:

95 96 95 95 96 95 96 95
95 95 86 95 96 95 96 95


----------



## tkrandall

I noticed something odd, my HR20-700 tuner #1 readings for 103(ca) transponders 17 thru 22 are much weaker (10 points or so, 20 points on TP18) than tuner #2. Switch the 2 lines and same result (tuner #1 weaker). Other 103(ca) TPs are roughly equivalent between the 2 tuners. I don't see this pattern on any other Ka bird.

tuner1
95 95 92 95 93 94 92 93
77 0 83 77 74 70 94 89 #18 sometimes 0 sometimes around 65-70

tuner2
91 95 91 95 91 92 89 94
88 85 89 91 86 80 93 90


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tkrandall said:


> I noticed something odd, my HR20-700 tuner #1 readings for 103(ca) transponders 17 thru 23 are much weaker (10 points or so, 20 points on TP18) than tuner #2. Switch the 2 lines and same result (tuner #1 weaker). Other 103(ca) TPs are roughly equivalent between the 2 tuners. I don't see this pattern on any other Ka bird.


I get the same levels with both tuners here.

During the initial rollout, I anticipate some daily variances as they tweak things....but just as a comparison...my levels are the same. Your results *might* be a sign of local hardware or other such issues, but I wouldn't rush to that conclusion based on this first intial info.


----------



## Brit_in_WV

Low to mid 90's here this morning on all TP's (sounds like a weather forecast)...lol


----------



## RobertE

Food Lion Man said:


> Will we be able to see any test channels before the channels are added on the 19th? I remember with D10 were we able to.





Jeremy W said:


> Highly unlikely. D10 was breaking new ground. We never got any early test channels with D11, and there's no reason to believe D12 will be any different.


9508 & 9509 for validation tests. No other "live" content test channels though.


----------



## smiddy

Keep'm coming DirecTV - 12! Yeah!


----------



## SteveHas

mid to high 90's here in Boston
on both tuners
go baby go!


----------



## nevea2be

Winchendon, ma

103* (ca)

T1

9-16 88 86 86 87 86 83 83 88
17-24 86 90 72 88 82 90 80 89

T2

9-16 91 88 88 88 88 85 86 89
17-24 88 89 73 90 91 92 94 94


----------



## DaveC27

Hmmm really bad weather in Chicagoland today has dropped all the figures down to 20/30 looks like I'm going to suffer lots of "searching for satellite" messages. I guess a realignment call is in order


----------



## bcampbell

60's and low 70's here in Iowa under overcast and drizzle. Dish just aligned yesterday with installation of an additional receiver.


----------



## mcbeevee

colt45allstar said:


> There is a tree in the backyard that has a branch that is a little close for comfort, how likely would you say that it's what's causing the issues with signal from D12, while not having much of any effect on the other satellites?


When the tech comes out to re-align the dish, they can tell you if the tree branch is causing any reception problems. Are your numbers on 103(cb) at the same low levels?


----------



## jamieh1

Eastern NC (Washington/Greenville)

103(ca)

93 91 94 95 91 91 92 95

90 91 89 95 89 91 95 95


----------



## ARKDTVfan

from the 40s and 50s last night to the upper 80s this morning


----------



## FHSPSU67

Lookin' good in Windber,PA -low to high 90's. To think I missed the arrival last evening to go out and watch the Penguins makes me wish I'd stayed home even more!


----------



## ptuck874

Ok just checked mine (all good from yesterday, except for 10) now lowest is 88 for 19, rest are 91 and above (91 being from 10  )


----------



## stoutman

Why would I have a twenty point variation TP 19 from tuner 1 and 2?


----------



## jdspencer

HR23-700 and HR20-100.
All TPs are 95 or higher with the exception of TP19 which is 87.


----------



## cnmurray8

This morning in Central NH transponders range from 1 at 88 and the rest 92 to 96.


----------



## VARTV

jamieh1 said:


> Eastern NC (Washington/Greenville)
> 
> 103(ca)
> 
> 93 91 94 95 91 91 92 95
> 
> 90 91 89 95 89 91 95 95


Your numbers are practically the same here in Virginia Beach...


----------



## jefbal99

Heavy rain and thunderstorms in Lansing, MI this AM, all TPs were 78-84


----------



## ICM2000

Low 90's all transponders (103 CA and CB) 7:30 AM very cloudy and rainy NW Chicago Suburbs.


----------



## netraa

94 92 95 94 95 91 94 93
92 93 88 93 94 94 95 95

just south of austin, TX.

pretty much mirror 103cb


----------



## tkrandall

jdspencer said:


> HR23-700 and HR20-100.
> All TPs are 95 or higher with the exception of TP19 which is 87.


I see similar results on TP18, HR20-700. Non-SWM setup.
Questions: Do you have a SWM single line or non SWM two lines into your HR? (If two lines, did you try swapping lines?)

Which model DVR do you have?


----------



## loudo

Looks like they have done some peaking over night. This morning all D12 channels range from 92 to 98 here in Central Maine, up from last night.


----------



## cebbigh

Ulen Mn, 20 miles NE of Fargo, Mn during heavy rain and under dense clouds this morning:

103ca

92 90 88 83 89 88 86 83
88 86 77 83 88 86 90 86

103cb

91 89 88 86 86 87 86 85
86 86 85 85 86 87

Good numbers given the weather.


----------



## syphix

cebbigh said:


> Ulen Mn, 20 miles NE of Fargo, Mn during heavy rain and under dense clouds this morning:
> 
> 103ca
> 
> 92 90 88 83 89 88 86 83
> 88 86 77 83 88 86 90 86
> 
> Good numbers given the weather.


Lake Lillian, MN here, under the same dense clouds.

95 93 95 91 93 91 94 91
92 91 *83* 91 93 92 96 95

Only one in question is TP19. But yours shows lower, too. More tweaking to be done by D*, perhaps.


----------



## jdspencer

tkrandall said:


> I see similar results on TP18, HR20-700. Non-SWM setup.
> Questions: Do you have a SWM single line or non SWM two lines into your HR? (If two lines, did you try swapping lines?)
> 
> Which model DVR do you have?


I have the non-SWM setup with the WB68 multiswitch. Both tuners on both DVRs show the same results, give or take a point.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> Lake Lillian, MN here, under the same dense clouds.
> 
> 95 93 95 91 93 91 94 91
> 92 91 *83* 91 93 92 96 95
> 
> *Only one in question is TP19. But yours shows lower, too. More tweaking to be done my D*, perhaps*.


That one is lower for everyone...more tweaking likely on their end.


----------



## Hdhead

Does anyone have any theories on what would have caused transponder #10 to show that odd behavior last night?


----------



## ATARI

Hdhead said:


> Does anyone have any theories on what would have caused transponder #10 to show that odd behavior last night?


I was still being tweaked?

Looks good now.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That one is lower for everyone...more tweaking likely on their end.


19 is low for a lot of people, but overall my signals are generally up by 1 - 3 points across the board this morning; I think I recall something similar from D10's "start up sequence." It seems like they bring the transponders up to full power over a day or two, and they "bias" or tweak the orientation of the satellite just a bit based on their internal criteria to maximize spot beam performance (which of course impacts our CONUS signals as well).

The big question for me is, WFT is up with Tp 10? Why did so many of us have zeros to begin with, while others had weak signals, and still another group had nice strong ones? And how come those of us who HAD zeros now have nice strong signals? 

Any RF engineers care to parse the Schedule S technical data in the FCC filings to see if there's something special or unusual about it?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> *19 is low for a lot of people, but overall my signals are generally up by 1 - 3 points across the board this morning; I think I recall something similar from D10's "start up sequence." * It seems like they bring the transponders up to full power over a day or two, and they "bias" or tweak the orientation of the satellite just a bit based on their internal criteria to maximize spot beam performance (which of course impacts our CONUS signals as well).
> 
> The big question for me is, WFT is up with Tp 10? Why did so many of us have zeros to begin with, while others had weak signals, and still another group had nice strong ones? And how come those of us who HAD zeros now have nice strong signals?
> 
> Any RF engineers care to parse the Schedule S technical data in the FCC filings to see if there's something special or unusual about it?


Yup - posted mine previously - all very good in the mid to high 90's except the one transponder slightly lower (like everyone else is reporting).

It's Day One for them to have D12 in place with active signals...so I'd look for them to do some further "tweaking" in the week(s) ahead.

Like you, D12 signals are about 1-2 points higher than D10 here as well....but they are all (but one) in that mid 90 and higher sweet spot.


----------



## erosroadie

~40 miles West of Chicago, with light rain...

103 (ca) all between 79 and 91.
Signal Strength 95%

103 (cb) in high 70s except 3 and 4, which are between 20 and 40.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

From Columbia, SC:

91 91 95 95 95 92 92 95
92 95 88 95 91 95 95 96

I'll take it.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

LameLefty said:


> 19 is low for a lot of people, but overall my *signals are generally up by 1 - 3 points across the board this morning*; I think I recall something similar from D10's "start up sequence." It seems like they bring the transponders up to full power over a day or two, and they "bias" or tweak the orientation of the satellite just a bit based on their internal criteria to maximize spot beam performance (which of course impacts our CONUS signals as well).
> 
> The big question for me is, WFT is up with Tp 10? Why did so many of us have zeros to begin with, while others had weak signals, and still another group had nice strong ones? And how come those of us who HAD zeros now have nice strong signals?
> 
> Any RF engineers care to parse the Schedule S technical data in the FCC filings to see if there's something special or unusual about it?


+1

Yesterday most in the low 70s. This morning some as high as 89. Weather not an issue yesterday for me.

This morning I had a Tp at 69, another Tp at 89. Maybe with any luck I can stay off the roof this weekend.


----------



## SpaceComo

I think they still have a little more tweeking on the CONUS beam pointing, and also they will take a little more inclination out of the parking orbit (north-south deviation), but they are nicely in the east-west box.:grin:


----------



## cebbigh

103ca hr21-700 

92 90 88 83 89 88 86 83
88 86 77 83 88 86 90 86

103ca hr20-100

94 91 89 84 91 88 87 83
89 86 72 83 89 86 90 86

Wonder why such a large gap tp19 2 receivers connected to the same TV over SWM?
Weather likely to remain cloudy with rain remainder of the day. Clears up tomorrow.


----------



## thelucky1

Looking good in North Texas, between 89-98.


----------



## LameLefty

SpaceComo said:


> I think they still have a little more tweeking on the CONUS beam pointing, and also they will take a little more inclination out of the parking orbit (north-south deviation), but they are nicely in the east-west box.:grin:


Ah, nice STK predictions.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

SpaceComo said:


> I think they still have a little more tweeking on the CONUS beam pointing, and also they will take a little more inclination out of the parking orbit (north-south deviation), but they are nicely in the east-west box.:grin:


Does less inclination in parking orbit mean stronger signals for us? :whatdidid


----------



## njfoses

Mine are posted below hr20-700 near long beach island nj with clear skies. Curious as to why the ca signals differ from the cb as much as they do?

103 ca

81 82 87 89 89 84 88 92
88 88 85 94 88 91 92 93

103 cb

94 93 90 92 95 94 89 92
95 94 93 95 95 95


----------



## SpaceComo

Hutchinshouse said:


> Does less inclination in parking orbit mean stronger signals for us? :whatdidid


The current 0.1 degree inclination is not much as seen from ground, that in itself will not make much (or any noticable) difference to signals received. But the CONUS antennas on the ship may not yet be tweeked to paint the prescribed beam on the ground just yet since the ship may still have some wobble in it.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

SpaceComo said:


> The current 0.1 degree inclination is not much as seen from ground, that in itself will not make much (or any noticable) difference to signals received. But the CONUS antennas on the ship may not yet be tweeked to paint the prescribed beam on the ground just yet since the ship may still have some wobble in it.


Thanks! I actually understand. Cool explanation.


----------



## dennisj00

From HR20-700 - 15 miles North of Charlotte, NC


86 90 91 94 91 91 87 94 

86 94 85 92 87 91 88 94

Of course, they seemed to change +/- 1 while typing!

Same on HR22-100 and both tuners - again +/- 1 at any point.


A big THANKS to Sixto and LL for the work and information!

Now for some HD!


----------



## SpaceComo

For reference here is most of the DTV fleet current location and next 24 hours of orbit (110/119 not included):biggrin:


----------



## slimoli

The difference on signal between CA and CB here in south Florida is much bigger than others are reporting:

CB

97 95 95 95 95 94 95 93
96 95 95 95 96 96 NA NA


NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA
84 80 86 85 86 76 85 82
83 75 73 74 77 60 76 59
NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA

Do you guys think I will need a dish calibration ?


----------



## Big Dawg 23

My dont look so good but it is very cloudy and raining south of Minneapolis/St. Paul

CB range from 65-73
CA range from 58-65


----------



## oakwcj

clevfandad said:


> My Bay Area Numbers are similar. Seems California getting short-changed. Maybe just last to be tweaked.


There was a long discussion about this when D10 launched. Bay Area readings were lower then, too. One theory had to do with the prevalence of CalAmp LNBs on dishes installed in California. My dish was new at the time and was realigned when we began getting D10 signals, but before the satellite went live. The tech was skilled, but he could not get signal levels into the 80's.

However, most of us use our dishes to watch programming, not signal level meters. I haven't had any reception problems with D10 with levels in the 70's. That's all that really matters.


----------



## Sixto

It's official!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=816778​


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> It's official!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=816778​


Perhaps DirecTV could save on legal costs if they just forwarded this forum to the FCC!


----------



## tuff bob

103ca was in the low 70s earlier when i check, now I have low 90s, they're tweaking it looks like


----------



## Carl Spock

Southeastern Minnesota, near Winona, under a heavy overcast/light rain:

103 (ca)

82 86 89 92 91 92 89 94

91 95 88 95 91 94 93 95

103 (cb)

94 87 91 82 91 82 91 82

91 77 89 81 89 80 n/a n/a

That's as purdy as a Picasso. :grin:


----------



## tuff bob

any way to disable the screensaver?


----------



## bobnielsen

Everything looked great yesterday, but now transponder 9 is 24 and 10 is 0 (the others are all in the 80s or 90s). I suspect there may be some testing in progress.


----------



## wmb

Sixto said:


> It's official!http://licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/download.do?attachment_key=816778​


I'm expecting the transponder thread to get busy!!!

So, when does this thread close? Time for a mad dash to 10,000 posts!


----------



## VeniceDre

9 & 10 are 0 for me as well.


----------



## Sixto

wmb said:


> I'm expecting the transponder thread to get busy!!!
> 
> So, when does this thread close? Time for a mad dash to 10,000 posts!


Will probably leave this thread open while testing completes.

At first sign of "live" channels from D12, we move on ...


----------



## Sixto

That is if we all behave. With D10/D11 the thread strayed to off-topic after first signal and got closed.

Would like to leave open until Wednesday 6am ET, so we have a thread from 2008 announce to "live", but that will depend on staying on topic.


----------



## rynorama

bobnielsen said:


> Everything looked great yesterday, but now transponder 9 is 24 and 10 is 0 (the others are all in the 80s or 90s). I suspect there may be some testing in progress.


Mine dropped to 37 on tp9 and 33 on tp10. Last night before bed they were all 92 and over. Glad I'm not alone.


----------



## kevinturcotte

My odd transponders are low 90's while my even's are mid 80's. That good, or the dish need a tweaking?


----------



## Hoosier205

Sixto said:


> That is if we all behave. With D10/D11 the thread strayed to off-topic after first signal and got closed.
> 
> Would like to leave open until Wednesday 6am ET, so we have a thread from 2008 announce to "live", but that will depend on staying on topic.


What happens to you then? Deep, dark depression? You'll still have the programming thread, but yikes...what will you do with all your free time?


----------



## BattleZone

kevinturcotte said:


> My odd transponders are low 90's while my even's are mid 80's. That good, or the dish need a tweaking?


If you're seeing that across all of the Ka transponders, then your dish is a bit off. Not much, but a bit. I don't know that it's enough to worry about, though.


----------



## pdawg17

Mine is general are a little lower in the Bay Area than last night but especially Tp9-10 like others here...


----------



## curt8403

congratulations to Directv on having D12 live.
Congratulations to DBSTalk and our members for waiting so long, and being so excited about the fact that D12 is finally live.
:grin:


----------



## waynebtx

All my 103


Just looked all my 103(ca) are in the high 90,s.


----------



## trainman

Hoosier205 said:


> What happens to you then? Deep, dark depression? You'll still have the programming thread, but yikes...what will you do with all your free time?


Baseball legend Rogers Hornsby once said, "People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring."

For Sixto, I think we can change that to "I stare out the window and wait for another satellite launch."


----------



## say-what

9 & 10 are definitely weird today.

66 & 34 for me. I guess they're still tweaking b/c last night and earlier this morning they were in the 90's


----------



## Baldone

Clear sky, near Seattle--

28 0 85 72 86 75 83 72
86 76 77 71 89 76 89 73



(cb) tp 1-14 all zeroes


----------



## DodgerKing

SoCal, like most of the west coast, also getting numbers in the 60's and 70's. I am not worrying about it. D10 had the same numbers. Once actual channels started broadcasting, the numbers started increasing.


----------



## Sixto

Hoosier205 said:


> What happens to you then? Deep, dark depression? ...


Deep, bright, relaxation!


----------



## sticketfan

all 90-95 for signal on the new one here in vermont!


----------



## ntwrkd

Can we close this thread now? :lol:


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> Deep, bright, relaxation!


 Since Sixto has the power, there are many many things that he can do.
:lol:


----------



## knew001

All 90+ here too!


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Deep, bright, relaxation!


And start the D14 Anticipation thread as soon as the first FCC Docs are filed...


----------



## prozone1

9 & 10 low 0 to 20 and keep changing rest in 80's
Northwest Montana bright sunshine


----------



## loveshockey

ntwrkd said:


> Can we close this thread now? :lol:


no...we have to get to 10,000


----------



## mluntz

Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	32	23	86	80	82	76	81	77
17 - 24	80	83	73	76	79	73	79	76
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Millersville, Md.

Mostly cloudy though, not concerned!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

For those folks who have had less than 90's on their levels...please note that they are likely still adjusting things....and perhaps check again later in the day. 

You may see all sorts of changes at various times throughout the day as the make "tweaks".


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Officially in Operation (per FCC)....

:righton:


----------



## mluntz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> For those folks who have had less than 90's on their levels...please note that they are likely still adjusting things....and perhaps check again later in the day.
> 
> You may see all sorts of changes at various times throughout the day as the make "tweaks".


Absolutely. I can sit there and watch the readings change every couple seconds. I'm not concerned until actual programming starts, the we'll see!


----------



## jrodfoo

80s and 90s here in Northern Virginia on 103(ca) 

we can't close the thread..we have to get over a million views


----------



## erosroadie

Hutchinshouse said:


> Officially in Operation (per FCC)....
> 
> :righton:


OK, so where are all of the "Chicken Littles" that peppered this forum (and others) convinced that something was horribly, terribly amiss with D12 because it had not drifted? Haven't heard a "peep" out of them lately...


----------



## georule

Here in NW metro Twin Cities, MN, mine don't look as good as most of yours (low 70s for the most part). . . but it is raining pretty good here right now, and the 103ca readings are only a few points below the 103cb and 99c readings. . . so I'm not going for panic-mode just yet.


----------



## Santi360HD

Chicken little ...signal SHMIGNAL..

*WHEN *ARE THE NEW HD CHANNELS gonna light up???????


----------



## curt8403

Santi360HD said:


> Chicken little ...signal SHMIGNAL..
> 
> *WHEN *ARE THE NEW HD CHANNELS gonna light up???????


Soon

I hear May 19th


----------



## curt8403

erosroadie said:


> OK, so where are all of the "Chicken Littles" that peppered this forum (and others) convinced that something was horribly, terribly amiss with D12 because it had not drifted? Haven't heard a "peep" out of them lately...


"Peep":sure:


----------



## mobandit

Mostly 90's on 103(ca)....in the center of the country...cloudy day, but still good signals! Waiting for D12 to light up with actual channels!

And trying to help get this thread to 10,000 posts before it's locked away!


----------



## tuff bob

just went all zeros for me in chicagoland! :eek2:

edit: looks like the receiver and/or weather. 99c is all zero as well


----------



## leww37334

hmmmmm

103 (ca)

33 28 88 94 79 87 91 91
93 94 65 90 91 90 78 85


all over the place... S Middle TN


----------



## DFWHD

texasbrit said:


> All TPs 9-24 mid 90s here in DFW


I'm in Allen, fairly near you if I recall and I'm showing:

103ca
9-16: 0 0 52 37 42 30 46 33
17-24: 46 30 35 26 49 26 42 27

Other birds showing:

99: 59 - 73
99s: 0 - 31
101: 88 - 97
103cb: 55 - 60 on all
103s: 49 - 72 with a few at 0
110: 77 - 82
119: 91 - 100

Using a DirecTV Slimline Dish with SWM-8 LNB. All current channels seem fine.

Sounds like a dish realign?


----------



## DaveC27

tuff bob said:


> just went all zeros for me in chicagoland! :eek2:
> 
> edit: looks like the receiver and/or weather. 99c is all zero as well


Also in Chicago, my figures were lousy this morning but are now (12:06) back in the 80's


----------



## -Draino-

I had all 90 and above last night. Now I have some 50's but not worried.


----------



## xrobmn

DFWHD said:


> I'm in Allen, fairly near you if I recall and I'm showing:
> 
> 103ca
> 9-16: 0 0 52 37 42 30 46 33
> 17-24: 46 30 35 26 49 26 42 27
> 
> Other birds showing:
> 
> 99: 59 - 73
> 99s: 0 - 31
> 101: 88 - 97
> 103cb: 55 - 60 on all
> 103s: 49 - 72 with a few at 0
> 110: 77 - 82
> 119: 91 - 100
> 
> Using a DirecTV Slimline Dish with SWM-8 LNB. All current channels seem fine.
> 
> Sounds like a dish realign?


Yep.. time to some dish tweaking! (unless you're sitting under a rain storm). Your 99/103's are kind of low


----------



## levibluewa

they're tinkering with the transponders...signals were good yesterday (90s), except for 2 tps, this morning a half dozen are in the 50s.


----------



## tuff bob

DaveC27 said:


> Also in Chicago, my figures were lousy this morning but are now (12:06) back in the 80's


reboot got me back on track

91 92 91 90 91 91 90 91
88 90 79 89 87 88 91 91


----------



## TDK1044

My numbers were great at 6AM and they are lousy now. I don't think we are seeing real signal levels yet.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This is very similar to what we saw with the other two satellites. Signal levels varied wildly until the thing actually started broadcasting.


----------



## syphix

They must be messing with it...

Lower signal on Tp10 again (85), still lower on 19 (86).

Can they "focus" CONUS transponders? Or, more to the point, what are they try to "tweak" exactly?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> This is very similar to what we saw with the other two satellites. Signal levels varied wildly until the thing actually started broadcasting.


Exactly.

No harm, no foul.


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> They must be messing with it...
> 
> Lower signal on Tp10 again (85), still lower on 19 (86).
> 
> Can they "focus" CONUS transponders? Or, more to the point, what are they try to "tweak" exactly?


Radiated power from the transponders individually to achieve specific signal intensity levels on the ground, the attitude (orientation in 3D space, or "bias") of the satellite to improve coverage for particular areas, stuff like that.


----------



## DFWHD

xrobmn said:


> Yep.. time to some dish tweaking! (unless you're sitting under a rain storm). Your 99/103's are kind of low


Just got off the phone ordering MRV and the CSR says that they will check that as part of the MRV install... I hope this isn't some CSR BS...


----------



## texasbrit

DFWHD said:


> I'm in Allen, fairly near you if I recall and I'm showing:
> 
> 103ca
> 9-16: 0 0 52 37 42 30 46 33
> 17-24: 46 30 35 26 49 26 42 27
> 
> Other birds showing:
> 
> 99: 59 - 73
> 99s: 0 - 31
> 101: 88 - 97
> 103cb: 55 - 60 on all
> 103s: 49 - 72 with a few at 0
> 110: 77 - 82
> 119: 91 - 100
> 
> Using a DirecTV Slimline Dish with SWM-8 LNB. All current channels seem fine.
> 
> Sounds like a dish realign?


Yes, your signals on most of the satellites are too low. Looks like a straightforward re-alignment issue. I'll post all my numbers for you tonight.


----------



## Fab55

georule said:


> Here in NW metro Twin Cities, MN, mine don't look as good as most of yours (low 70s for the most part). . . but it is raining pretty good here right now, and the 103ca readings are only a few points below the 103cb and 99c readings. . . so I'm not going for panic-mode just yet.


I have the same here, SW Metro Twin Cities. Good to know others are in the same boat!


----------



## James Long

Sixto said:


> Would like to leave open until Wednesday 6am ET, so we have a thread from 2008 announce to "live", but that will depend on staying on topic.


Live should be as early as tomorrow when D10 is approved to start it's move and the channel load will transfer over to D12 (per the approved STA).

First _new_ HD from D12 will be next Wednesday, but program retransmission will start will be before that - won't it?


----------



## georule

Fab55 said:


> I have the same here, SW Metro Twin Cities. Good to know others are in the same boat!


Now that the rain stopped, I just looked again. One mid-70s, one mid-80s. . . the rest in the mid-90s.


----------



## Sixto

James Long said:


> Live should be as early as tomorrow when D10 is approved to start it's move and the channel load will transfer over to D12 (per the approved STA).
> 
> First _new_ HD from D12 will be next Wednesday, but program retransmission will start will be before that - won't it?


Actually not sure yet.

While D10 is allowed to start moving tomorrow, it's not clear when the D10 channels will actually light up on D12.

And we'd expect some serious testing before anything goes "live".


----------



## Mike Bertelson

So, how long did the drift actually take? It seems to have lasted 12 days but do we know that for sure?

Mike


----------



## TDK1044

TDK1044 said:


> My numbers were great at 6AM and they are lousy now. I don't think we are seeing real signal levels yet.


Now they are back up in the high 80s and 90s.


----------



## hilmar2k

DFWHD said:


> Just got off the phone ordering MRV and the CSR says that they will check that as part of the MRV install... I hope this isn't some CSR BS...


I was told exactly the same thing this morning. My signals are pretty good, but if the tech wants to do some tweaking when he's here tomorrow I won't stop him.


----------



## wmb

MicroBeta said:


> So, how long did the drift actually take? It seems to have lasted 12 days but do we know that for sure?
> 
> Mike


From the TLEs, we know it took between 7 and 12 days. Doubt we will get anything more specific than that.


----------



## prozone1

9 just went from low teens to 76 
10 went from 20's to 82 
rest in mid 80's


----------



## d max82

98 98 97 97 90 98 90 97
90 99 91 98 90 98 96 98 

Transfer D10's load over and lets get this show on the road!!!


----------



## colt45allstar

Pretty much, slightly higher... 50's mostly, but still really low.



mcbeevee said:


> When the tech comes out to re-align the dish, they can tell you if the tree branch is causing any reception problems. Are your numbers on 103(cb) at the same low levels?


----------



## Groundhog45

Darn it. I'm sitting here in Florida more than 800 miles from my receivers on the biggest few days we've seen in a while. I have no idea what signal levels I'm getting.  I won't know for a week. They'll probably have all of the D10 stuff moved over by then. Guess we'll just make do on the beach.


----------



## Carl Spock

Groundhog45 said:


> Guess we'll just make do on the beach.


Just shut up.


----------



## inkahauts

I would suggest everyone just sit tight in worrying about signal strength for the moment.. some are reportign great signals, others poor.. As others have said, I tink we will see a normalization of the signal over the whole country by the time they start broadcasting...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

As others have indicated....DirecTV may very well be adjusting ("tweaking") D12 throughout the day, and perhaps another few days before they activate live programming from that new satellite.

My levels the past few minutes (in the photo below) remain pretty constant all day now when I've checked.


----------



## inkahauts

LameLefty said:


> 19 is low for a lot of people, but overall my signals are generally up by 1 - 3 points across the board this morning; I think I recall something similar from D10's "start up sequence." It seems like they bring the transponders up to full power over a day or two, and they "bias" or tweak the orientation of the satellite just a bit based on their internal criteria to maximize spot beam performance (which of course impacts our CONUS signals as well).
> 
> The big question for me is, WFT is up with Tp 10? Why did so many of us have zeros to begin with, while others had weak signals, and still another group had nice strong ones? And how come those of us who HAD zeros now have nice strong signals?
> 
> Any RF engineers care to parse the Schedule S technical data in the FCC filings to see if there's something special or unusual about it?


SO do you think they are quickly testing spots using the conus transponder frequencies that D12 will use, so they don't interfere with the D10 spot frequencies? I am guessing that eventually they will use all these spots in unison, however, I have a feeling we will see D12 use the exact same pattern as d10 is now, until they get d10 fixed up...

Ok, hows that for a guess?


----------



## PhilS

Sixto said:


> Actually not sure yet.
> 
> While D10 is allowed to start moving tomorrow, it's not clear when the D10 channels will actually light up on D12.
> 
> And we'd expect some serious testing before anything goes "live".


At what point should we see an official press release from Boeing saying handoff to Directv complete?


----------



## inkahauts

DO you think they will move everything from d10 to d12 in one big switch? Or a few at a time over a week or two.... or a couple at first to make sure its going well, and then a giant switch for the majority?


----------



## n3ntj

103 (cb) is D12

and 

103 (ca) is D10?


----------



## loveshockey

n3ntj said:


> 103 (cb) is D12
> 
> and
> 
> 103 (ca) is D10?


other way around


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> DO you think they will move everything from d10 to d12 in one big switch?


I think they'll move everything over at once in test mode, make sure it's good, remap the channels, and shut off D10's transponders.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> I think they'll move everything over at once in test mode, make sure it's good, remap the channels, and shut off D10's transponders.


Yup...the most likely path they will follow.


----------



## Sixto

All 80 slots are already mapped out in the D10 guide data, as placeholders. Along with what appears to be Idaho LiL. 86 channels in total.

Once they define D12, with it's own network (we've been looking ), then would expect that the D12 guide data will get the 86 channels (80 national/6 LiL+), and then for the placeholders to disappear from the D10 stream.

I had assumed that the new channels would go first next Wednesday, and then the D10 channels to slowly follow, but anything is possible, and sure that the engineers have this already all mapped out, with reasons for each step, ad what goes first.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Once they define D12, with it's own network (we've been looking ).


EVERY day at 5AM CDT

Doctor j


----------



## netraa

Sixto said:


> All 80 slots are already mapped out in the D10 guide data, as placeholders. Along with what appears to be Idaho LiL. 86 channels in total.
> 
> Once they define D12, with it's own network (we've been looking ), then would expect that the D12 guide data will get the 86 channels (80 national/6 LiL+), and then for the placeholders to disappear from the D10 stream.
> 
> I had assumed that the new channels would go first next Wednesday, and then the D10 channels to slowly follow, but anything is possible, and sure that the engineers have this already all mapped out, with reasons for each step, ad what goes first.


So, when it's time to throw the switch, and all the info on D10 is mirrored on D12, should we expect a massive round of forced re-boots and guide flushing when they throw the switch, or can they re-map the channels on the fly.


----------



## Sixto

netraa said:


> So, when it's time to throw the switch, and all the info on D10 is mirrored on D12, should we expect a massive round of forced re-boots and guide flushing when they throw the switch, or can they re-map the channels on the fly.


All on the fly, with the significant stuff 6am ET.

Should be minimal impact, as the transponder changes, and you shouldn't notice anything other then a small blip in the early AM (if it goes as planned ).

And I'd guess no big switch will be thrown, little by little I'd expect, but I'm sure the engineers have a grand plan.

Channels get added/moved every day, all day long, with the part-time stuff, so this is well known territory.


----------



## P Smith

We should get Boeing statement first, then channels will popup. Without the step no new net number will be assigned to D12. 

Actually, it shouldn't be - DTV net# means orbital slot, not satellite itself.

Wait a sec ! That means those new TIDs from my last night parsing... belong to D12.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Should be zero impact, and you shouldn't notice anything (if it goes as planned ).


If you're actually watching the channel as it happens, I'd imagine there will be some sort of interruption in the feed. There's pretty much no way around that.


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> If you're actually watching the channel as it happens, I'd imagine there will be some sort of interruption in the feed. There's pretty much no way around that.


 what about dual illuminated


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> what about dual illuminated


Doesn't matter. The receiver has to basically tune to a whole new channel, it can't do that instantaneously.


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> Doesn't matter. The receiver has to basically tune to a whole new channel, it can't do that instantaneously.


 correct, most likely there will be a banner telling cust to tune to new channel or telling them to please wait while we update their rcvr


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> If you're actually watching the channel as it happens, I'd imagine there will be some sort of interruption in the feed. There's pretty much no way around that.


True.

Wasn't really considering those watching during the early AM. 

They're moved channels from transponder to transponder before, so little blip when they get moved. Will clarify the post.


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> correct, most likely there will be a banner telling cust to tune to new channel or telling them to please wait while we update their rcvr


The channel won't change from the user's perspective, just from the receiver's.


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> The channel won't change from the user's perspective, just from the receiver's.


 perhaps the remapping is already in the rcvr and just waiting for a signal to switch networks or transponders internally, so maybe a 30 second blip as it changes.


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> perhaps the remapping is already in the rcvr and just waiting for a signal to switch networks or transponders internally, so maybe a 30 second blip as it changes.


As far as I know, there is no way to tell a receiver "X mapping will change to Y at Z time." It just happens.


----------



## Sixto

We've seen this move many times before, as they've moved channels to a different transponder. Same, but on a larger scale, and maybe broken down into small chunks.

Should be painless.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> We've seen this move many times before, as they've moved channels to a different transponder. Same, but on a larger scale, and maybe broken down into small chunks.
> 
> Should be painless.


they did this with the 101 slot a few years ago. it was painless and invisible


----------



## Todd H

Lowest signal strength here in Eastman Georgia is 95. Glad to see them lit up. I'm ready for some new HD!


----------



## knoxbh

Just checked some of my H & HR receivers. 
All are in the 90s on 103ca - mostly mid-to-upper 90s.
In central Florida and I do mean CENTRAL.


----------



## ronsm

I am envious of everyone. My lowest reading is 32, and my highest is 43. But, I will wait a few more days before I call them. And I live in the L.A. area, 15 minutes from the headquarters.


----------



## geaux tigers

85 - 95 with most transponders in the 90s here in Shreveport, LA.


----------



## xmguy

I'm getting it. Awaiting more HD! 

1-8, XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX
9-16, 95 95 95 95 95 94 94 95
17-24, 94 95 81 93 92 94 94 95
25-32, XX XX XX XX XX XX XX XX


----------



## SParker

Updated #'s here in MI. Looking good and its kind of rainy!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

SParker said:


> Updated #'s here in MI. Looking good and its kind of rainy!


You should be in good shape when D12 kicks out its HD stuff.


----------



## erosroadie

Post #10,000 is just around the corner. What happens first...Post #10,000 or 5 New HD???


----------



## Sixto

We're doing 10-20K views per day. It just seems sweet to possibly see 1,000,000, but of course good thread content is key.


----------



## rey_1178

i'm also seeing signals in the high 90's from d12 except for one transponder that is at 86.


----------



## Shogunz

My numbers are as follows.

103a - between 80-91
103b - between 77-92


----------



## Sixto

Honestly ... every time I bring up that 103 (ca) screen with the 16 transponders of HD bandwidth with 90's ... it just brings a BIG smile.

Yes, we gotta deal with the D10 situation, but after things go well with D10, it will be so nice to have all those additional HD transponders, half a screen full. 

What a nice day.


----------



## wavemaster

Sixto said:


> ...
> 
> What a nice day.


Amen.

94 to 97 here in New England.


----------



## syphix

This thread is now a post count padder!! 

Seeing mid-90's on all Tp's!! Loving it!!


----------



## wavemaster

All 0's now.


----------



## Hdhead

Turned off the odd transponders, all 0. Oh no!!


----------



## wavemaster

Like the phantom light switch in a house - some guy at D* is flicking switches and laughing.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Honestly ... every time I bring up that 103 (ca) screen with the 16 transponders of HD bandwidth with 90's ... it just brings a BIG smile.
> 
> Yes, we gotta deal with the D10 situation, but after things go well with D10, it will be so nice to have all those additional HD transponders, half a screen full.
> 
> What a nice day.


Does it strike you as unusual, the way the D-10 channels are mapping to D-12?
NET 15 (D-10 channels are mapped TPN #'s 1 thru 14 (essentially 5 per transponder)

The virtual channels presumable for D-12 designations are on TPN #'s 8 thru 23!?

Is it too logical to wonder why they are not 9 thru 24 like the channel signal strength map??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Does it strike you as unusual, the way the D-10 channels are mapping to D-12?
> NET 15 (D-10 channels are mapped TPN #'s 1 thru 14 (essentially 5 per transponder)
> 
> The virtual channels presumable for D-12 designations are on TPN #'s 8 thru 23!?
> 
> Is it too logical to wonder why they are not 9 thru 24 like the channel signal strength map??
> 
> Doctor j


I've always thought that they are just using the D10 guide data as a temporary staging area.

They have 80 placeholder slots and there's some benefit to pre-staging the D12 guide data somewhere. No real channels.

Then they'll just tweak it, change 1-14 to 9-24, and move it all over to the D12 guide data once it defined, and then get the real test channels up.


----------



## jimmyv2000

wavemaster said:


> Like the phantom light switch in a house - some guy at D* is flicking switches and laughing.


1)D turns off switch
2) AN Engenieer Logs on th DBS Talk reads this thread
3)Waits a few minutes and turns odds back on


----------



## wavemaster

jimmyv2000 said:


> 1)D turns off switch
> 2) AN Engenieer Logs on th DBS Talk reads this thread
> 3)Waits a few minutes and turns odds back on


... and then rinse and repeat.

... it's killing me.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

we really are geeks, aren't we


----------



## freerein100

Has anyone seen new transponder signals on 103s yet


----------



## ldgatlin

wilbur_the_goose said:


> we really are geeks, aren't we


:lol: I was just thinking what a geek I am as I was reading the days posts!


----------



## nj829

Am watching discovery HD and the picture just went black, green, then back to normal. Now the show is about area 51 and I was just reading this thread about seeing blips when the change is made, so now I wonder did I just see it happen?? Signal in the 90's, and sunny so loss of signal wouldn't be it...


----------



## sigma1914

nj829 said:


> Am watching discovery HD and the picture just went black, green, then back to normal. * Now the show is about area 51* and I was just reading this thread about seeing blips when the change is made, so now I wonder did I just see it happen?? Signal in the 90's, and sunny so loss of signal wouldn't be it...


:eek2: They're heeeeeere.


----------



## Jeremy W

nj829 said:


> Signal in the 90's, and sunny so loss of signal wouldn't be it...


Signal loss can occur in many other places aside from the satellite to your home.


----------



## mitoca

I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?


----------



## sigma1914

mitoca said:


> I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?


Because 22 was too easy.


----------



## Jeremy W

mitoca said:


> I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?


There's no way it takes 23 presses. However, it's going to take more than other functions because it's not something you need to use frequently. In order for the most-used functions to be easily accessible, lesser-used functions have to be a little harder to access.


----------



## dcowboy7

mitoca said:


> I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?


Because it doesnt....i did it in 15.


----------



## mesquito10

nj829 said:


> Am watching discovery HD and the picture just went black, green, then back to normal. Now the show is about area 51 and I was just reading this thread about seeing blips when the change is made, so now I wonder did I just see it happen?? Signal in the 90's, and sunny so loss of signal wouldn't be it...


I was watching the show. My screen went Black for around 4 or 5 seconds then came alive with same area 51 program minus 4 or 5 seconds of dialog as I recall.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

mitoca said:


> I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?


16 presses. MENU > CH- > SELECT > DOWN > DOWN > SELECT > CH- > UP > UP > UP > SELECT > SELECT > LEFT > SELECT > SELECT > SELECT.


----------



## syphix

Raise your hand if your wife/significant other has said, at least once, "Why are you checking that signal _again??_ Can't we just watch TV??"

*raises hand*


----------



## djzack67

its getting closer and closer


----------



## bjdotson

Checked this afternoon at 4, all my signals were 30-35

I am in Layton, Utah


----------



## Sixto

I always find these low signals surprising.

I usually check every few weeks just for the heck of it, as surfing.

Would always strive for 101, 99 (c), and 103 (cb) in the 90's, at least for some transponders on each. And now add 103 (ca).

Couldn't imagine not having a peaked Dish as priority one. Also always prefer SWM (or equivalent) to power the Dish as well.


----------



## Rob

dirtyblueshirt said:


> 16 presses. MENU > CH- > SELECT > DOWN > DOWN > SELECT > CH- > UP > UP > UP > SELECT > SELECT > LEFT > SELECT > SELECT > SELECT.


I just did it in 5!!!!!


----------



## SteveHas

all your 103 are belong to us


----------



## Rob

Rob said:


> I just did it in 5!!!!!


left, select, left, select, select


----------



## flapperdink

getting all high 90s except for one in high 80s on (ca) 

another reason to have some beer tonight


----------



## dcowboy7

mitoca said:


> I just want to know why it has to take 23 button presses to get to the 103 ca signals?





Rob said:


> I just did it in 5!!!!!
> left, select, left, select, select


Cool....never knew that shortcut....evidently mitty didnt either.


----------



## gregftlaud

Signals even better for me today. All in the range of 95-99. Pretty good eh?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregftlaud said:


> Signals even better for me today. All in the range of 95-99. Pretty good eh?


You're not alone....most consistent across all transponders all day....

No doubt....testing and tweaking continues. Nice to see D12 operating with a strong pulse.


----------



## Rob

I'm in th 70's on (ca) , but that has been typical for (cb) and I get my HD just fine. 

San Diego

I'm moving soon.
I won't let the installer leave until I get 100's on all transponders.


----------



## slimoli

gregftlaud said:


> Signals even better for me today. All in the range of 95-99. Pretty good eh?


I live in the same area and have the CB in the high 90s but the CA has few transponders at 92 and 2 of them at 64. The lowest on the CB is 96, shouldn't the CA be around the same ?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rob said:


> I'm in th 70's on (ca) , but that has been typical for (cb) and I get my HD just fine.
> 
> San Diego
> 
> I'm moving soon.
> I won't let the installer leave until I get 100's on all transponders.


Have the pillow ready.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

All of my readings for 103 (ca) are in the 70s and 80s. Should I call tech support?


----------



## Hdhead

Rob said:


> I just did it in 5!!!!!


Beat ya. I just did it in 1 keystroke. Programmed macro into my MX-500


----------



## Jeremy W

dcowboy7 said:


> Cool....never knew that shortcut....evidently mitty didnt either.


It's not really a shortcut, pressing Left takes you back to where you were. Had you been somewhere else previously, that wouldn't work.


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Rob said:


> left, select, left, select, select


That gets me to 103°(cb). Do you have a SWM?


----------



## alanz

My hr21 just restarted itself without warning while we were watching fringe. Could this be related to the d10/d12 work going on or is it just bad luck?


----------



## Sixto

alanz said:


> My hr21 just restarted itself without warning while we were watching fringe. Could this be related to the d10/d12 work going on or is it just bad luck?


Other then D12 signal testing, nothing else going on.


----------



## EVAC41

My signals from 103(ca)

1-8 N/A across the board
9-16 91 94 85 86 89 92 83 88
17-24 89 92 76 88 88 88 92 88
25-32 N/A across the board


----------



## thedawgg

What will be the frist channels next Wednesday?


----------



## thedawgg

by the way 93-85 on my readings


----------



## PCHDTV

CA in Central Florida
95 95 94 95 93 92 92 95
92 93 82 94 89 93 92 95


----------



## Sixto

thedawgg said:


> What will be the frist channels next Wednesday?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2452303


----------



## Mr D

what sat is 103 (s) d11? and sixto so when the switch from d10 to d12 is done 103 cb TP readings are gonna be 0 right?


----------



## bobnielsen

103(s) is D10 and SW1 (D12 will show up there also) spotbeams. D11 is at 99.


----------



## Sixto

Mr D said:


> and sixto so when the switch from d10 to d12 is done 103 cb TP readings are gonna be 0 right?


As they're fixing D10, yes, as long as they need to take down CONUS while fixing the spots which is expected.


----------



## de_runner

Bakersfield, CA 93309
103(ca)

80 74 80 74 77 69 79 73
76 66 70 72 77 69 79 73

HR21-200

Same approximate signal strength at this time yesterday


----------



## Gary Toma

Mr D said:


> what sat is 103 (s) d11? and sixto so when the switch from d10 to d12 is done 103 cb TP readings are gonna be 0 right?


Attached is just the second page of the Network Decoder document that accompanies the TPN Map listing. In Column 4, there is an item "Receiver Label" which tells you the key your Receiver's Signal Strength Display uses to identify each satellite's Spot or CONUS beams.

In some cases, two 'Labels' are shown. In this case older receivers followed a different label naming convention. All newer equipment and HD DVR's use the Label name shown in bold.


----------



## richall01

I'm getting 0's on most of the TP's on 103(s) does this mean they have moved from D11 to D12?


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

richall01 said:


> I'm getting 0's on most of the TP's on 103(s) does this mean they have moved from D11 to D12?


AFAIK, nothing should be transferring from D11 to D12. The transitions will be D10 to D12... and even then I doubt you'll see a signal loss right away.


----------



## tkrandall

tkrandall said:


> I noticed something odd, my HR20-700 tuner #1 readings for 103(ca) transponders 17 thru 22 are much weaker (10 points or so, 20 points on TP18) than tuner #2. Switch the 2 lines and same result (tuner #1 weaker). Other 103(ca) TPs are roughly equivalent between the 2 tuners. I don't see this pattern on any other Ka bird.
> 
> tuner1
> 95 95 92 95 93 94 92 93
> 77 0 83 77 74 70 94 89 #18 sometimes 0 sometimes around 65-70
> 
> tuner2
> 91 95 91 95 91 92 89 94
> 88 85 89 91 86 80 93 90


The issue in fact may have been with my BBCs. When I swapped the feeds earlier today, I swapped them upstream of the BBCs at the wall jack. Tonight I swapped feeds at the BBC hookups to line 1 and line 2 at the receiver. This time the phenomenon followed to the other tuner. (Tuner 2 now low) Next, I left the BBCs connected to the receiver and swapped the feeds at the BBCs on their upstream side. This time, the issue largely went away, with 103ca signals now close on both tuners. Perhaps the reconnecting them somehow improved the situation

103ca
tuner 1
95 95 92 95 91 95 93 96
90 91 88 91 88 85 95 93

tuner 2
95 95 92 95 89 94 91 95
88 90 88 93 86 85 93 94


----------



## Charles Munroe

I am just outside of Atlanta, Ga.
I have been getting 95-96 on all transponders
except for 19 that is 87. I have had these values
since D12 started sending a signal usable on my
three DVR's.


----------



## chicagojim

65 56 61 54 63 54 58 51
54 47 51 46 44 44 0 42


Frankfort, IL

Yuck - This could be a problem if things don't improve


----------



## barryb

My signals increased a couple points today.


----------



## MikeW

richall01 said:


> I'm getting 0's on most of the TP's on 103(s) does this mean they have moved from D11 to D12?


(s) means that you are looking at a spotbeam satellite. The signals from transponders that you see a 0 or very low number are pointed at other parts of the country. It is normal to see alot of 0s.

(c) means that you are looking at a CONUS (CONtinental U S) signal and you should see normal levels.

ca is for the new D12 bird
cb is for the "old" satellite that will be taken out of service for a few repairs once D12 is online. Once those repairs are done...look for a big push for more HD.


----------



## MikeW

chicagojim said:


> 65 56 61 54 63 54 58 51
> 54 47 51 46 44 44 0 42
> 
> Frankfort, IL
> 
> Yuck - This could be a problem if things don't improve


How are your signals on 103(cb)?


----------



## bearcat250

Why so many zreo's on 103 ca?

9-16 77 77 77 77 69 56 40 0
17-24 0 0 0 0 31 0 48 42

I'm in NH


----------



## SteveHas

bearcat250 said:


> Why so many zreo's on 103 ca?
> 
> 9-16 77 77 77 77 69 56 40 0
> 17-24 0 0 0 0 31 0 48 42
> 
> I'm in NH


Last time we got a new Satellite I recall signal strengths bouncing around a bit until it went live if I recall correctly

currently mine are all in the mid to high 90's I'm just south of Boston


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SteveHas said:


> Last time we got a new Satellite I recall signal strengths bouncing around a bit until it went live if I recall correctly
> 
> currently mine are all in the mid to high 90's I'm just south of Boston


That's the way I remember it also.

I'm guessing but I suspect it's all part of some pre-operational checklist and once they go through all it's checks it'll go live. 

Mike


----------



## TDK1044

Charles Munroe said:


> I am just outside of Atlanta, Ga.
> I have been getting 95-96 on all transponders
> except for 19 that is 87. I have had these values
> since D12 started sending a signal usable on my
> three DVR's.


Yep. I'm in the Atlanta area too. Mine started out with those very numbers; then at about 1PM yesterday they all dropped into the 70s and 80s. Then late last night and this morning they are back to all 95 and 96, except for 19 which is 87.


----------



## Tubaman-Z

Rochester, MN

ca

88 91 85 88 85 88 82 87
84 87 69 87 83 88 85 91

cb

85 82 85 78 82 80 83 79
82 79 82 80 81 80


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Solid levels this morning as well...the tweaking process seems to have stabilized somewhat...with all transponders here well in the 90's.


----------



## usnret

How and what do they "repair" D10?


----------



## georule

A more general question. . . why do individual active transponders on an active satellite vary significantly in signal strength? I can see them being off by 1 (one rounds one way, one the other). . . but why by more than one? Alignment of individual transponders? Actual variation in signal strength being sent by individual transponders? Is it on purpose, or a variation in the hardware that isn't really intended but is considered acceptable within certain parameters? Or maybe the limits of accuracy of signal strength testing of the receiving equipment (i.e. the difference isn't really there, but the receiving equipment has a +/- x% measuring accuracy).

Right now on 103ca I've got mostly 95s and 96s, one 97 and one 85. Yes, I know those are happy numbers. But why the 97? Why the 85?


----------



## PkDog

Gee -- where are the dish trolls?

Even that would be more interesting than 1 million people continuously sending messages consisting of 16 numbers.


----------



## mcbeevee

usnret said:


> How and what do they "repair" D10?


Click here: D10 Satellite Corrective Action


----------



## Piratefan98

South Central PA here ....

95 95 95 95 91 92 93 95
87 92 83 95 88 92 96 96 


Jeff


----------



## HRJustin

Here are my 103 (ca) signals

92 95 92 94 88 92 89 95 
87 92 81 94 88 91 95 95 


and just for fun the 103 (cb) signals 

91 92 88 89 86 89 86 89 
87 89 88 91 89 92 

Some of them fluctuate by 1 point up or down every time they update.


----------



## DFWHD

PkDog said:


> Gee -- where are the dish trolls?
> 
> Even that would be more interesting than 1 million people continuously sending messages consisting of 16 numbers.


This will only last for a few more days. Heck, the entire country has been trying to figure out what the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 mean for 6 years now... Wait, did I see those on the D12 transponders?


----------



## Santi360HD

103 ca in NYC

83 76 75 71 76 72 69 72
73 73 60 74 73 72 70 58

currently overcast with a threat of rain here in NYC
I have the 5LNB *NON DVR* HD reciever

my dish is on the roof of a 6 story apt building, not on the window ledge
(a rarity indeed here in the city, most apartments dont allow any on the rooftops)
live in upper manhattan my view is the GW Bridge and i have a phenominal view of the Hudson going downtown

those are my signals


----------



## I WANT MORE

DFWHD said:


> This will only last for a few more days. Heck, the entire country has been trying to figure out what the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 mean for 6 years now... Wait, did I see those on the D12 transponders?


Are you freakin lost or something?


----------



## Carl Spock

DFWHD said:


> Heck, the entire country has been trying to figure out what the numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42 mean for 6 years now...


So I take everyone's transponder numbers, add up the columns, average them and divide by 12, and I'll have this week's Powerball winner?


----------



## wmb

georule said:


> A more general question. . . why do individual active transponders on an active satellite vary significantly in signal strength?


I'll give a copule of thoughts on this... warning to the J6Ps out there, some science content!

In any process, there is natural variability. The question we do not know is what exactly is that variability. Our readings tend to be a snapshot in time. No one (OK, maybe some do, and I am sure DirecTV does but they won't tell) actually records and plots the strength of individual transponders and prepares a control chart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_chart) to know what the actual control limts (hence variability) actually are. The control limits can be the standard deviation of the measurements, which is a measure of the spread of the data (and, btw J6P, your boss is probably doing this). All things being equal, if you were to take the signal strength readings, and calculate its standard deviation, you would likely get a good estimate of the actual variability of the signal strength assuming that the reason for the variability is the result of random issues.

Some factors that may actually make a difference would include slight differences in transponder alignment, background signals, variabilities in power amongst transponders, variabilities in interactions between the signal and the atmosphere. Depending upon whether these sources of variation tend to affect one transponder more than another, this could bias the signal reading and would mean that the control chart for transponders n1 reading has a central value of x1, and transponder n2 has a central value of n2, etc.

The question we do not know the answer to is whether these factors are spread out randomly across transponders and their respective frequency or whether they are randomly distributed across the transponders.

My guess is that there the differences is caused by a combination of both random variability and true differences. In order to test this, we would need to make the control charts for a location, and see what the central value and control limits are. Once you know the per-transponder measurements, you can do some math (say Tukey's HSD, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tukey–Kramer_method) and see whether the readings actually are different between transponders. ( yeah, I used this method in my dissertation).


----------



## hdfan1

I am getting mid 90s on all positions except for one 79


----------



## Stuart Sweet

What a difference a day makes. My numbers on 103(ca) are now better than those on 103(cb)!


----------



## rrrick8

Stuart Sweet said:


> What a difference a day makes. My numbers on 103(ca) are now better than those on 103(cb)!


Same here.


----------



## slimoli

My CB is still much stronger than the CA , here in south Florida. CB is in the upper 90s and CA has 2 transponders at 63. Slim 5 .


----------



## GP_23

All low to mid 80's here in Montrose, CO


----------



## cebbigh

103ca tp 19 while improved from yesterday still shows the weakest signal on both of my DVR's. On my hr21-700 it shows 80-83 and on my hr20-100 it varies between 74-76. All the other tp's are about equal to each other and look great. I guess if after actual channels are loaded if I have problems I can switch around the connections to see if it makes a difference.

Huge service Sixto is providing in mapping out what channel goes to what tp. It seems that tp 19 is stronger in some parts of the country. Be interesting to see what channels they load on it.

Clear skies here today. Yesterday was very cloudy.

What is the minimum number before you get reception issues?


----------



## kmax

Guess I'm weird but I wonder what the actually transponders look like on the sat, and the actual mechanics involved in aiming them. Sure I've seen pictures of the sat, but besides the solar panels I couldn't make heads or tails of what is what on it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I know that Tom Robertson has actually seen this satellite in person and could probably answer at least some of that.


----------



## puckparent

I am at our summer home in Green Lake, Wisconsin. I just checked my signal strength on 103ca and I am only getting

0 0 0 29 0 0 0 25

0 0 0 24 0 0 0 24

should I call DirecTV now? I have SWM(if that make a difference?) which is showing 
95 81 92 78 95 95 79 79
79 n/a n/a n/a na/ etc.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Most of mine are in the 90's for 103(ca).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

puckparent said:


> I am at our summer home in Green Lake, Wisconsin. I just checked my signal strength on 103ca and I am only getting
> 
> 0 0 0 29 0 0 0 25
> 
> 0 0 0 24 0 0 0 24
> 
> should I call DirecTV now? I have SWM(if that make a difference?) which is showing
> 95 81 92 78 95 95 79 79
> 79 n/a n/a n/a na/ etc.


I sincerely doubt they'd help you now, probably best to wait a week or so until there are channels on the satellite.


----------



## jefbal99

puckparent said:


> I am at our summer home in Green Lake, Wisconsin. I just checked my signal strength on 103ca and I am only getting
> 
> 0 0 0 29 0 0 0 25
> 
> 0 0 0 24 0 0 0 24
> 
> should I call DirecTV now? I have SWM(if that make a difference?) which is showing
> 95 81 92 78 95 95 79 79
> 79 n/a n/a n/a na/ etc.


What are your 99c and 103cb signals?


----------



## vbedford

103 (ca)

9-16 = 88 89 92 92 84 85 88 90 
17-24 = 83 85 70 89 83 84 91 91


----------



## curt8403

Stuart Sweet said:


> I sincerely doubt they'd help you now, probably best to wait a week or so until there are channels on the satellite.


 +1 on that comment


----------



## JeffBowser

In a break from the tedious posting of transponder strengths, has there been any indication from anyone of what the delay in D12's initial testing was, now that it has moved and lit up?


----------



## curt8403

JeffBowser said:


> In a break from the tedious posting of transponder strengths, has there been any indication from anyone of what the delay in D12's initial testing was, now that it has moved and lit up?


 with the speed that it is lighting up and being tuned, I suspect that it was just a lot of extra testing since testing at 103 would be hard due to D10 being there as well


----------



## trdrjeff

JeffBowser said:


> In a break from the tedious posting of transponder strengths, has there been any indication from anyone of what the delay in D12's initial testing was, now that it has moved and lit up?


Are you serious? 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796


----------



## puckparent

jefbal99 said:


> What are your 99c and 103cb signals?


My 103(cb)

1-8 28 49 28 50 25 46 37 48

9-16 24 43 27 46 25 42 n/a n/a

99(c)

1-8 50 46 49 45 48 45 47 42

9-15 47 43 47 42 50 47 n/a n/a

I also have a SWM which is from 95 to 79 if that makes a difference? My HD signals are coming in fine even with those low numbers.


----------



## puckparent

I called and set up an appointment for a tech to come and realign the dish in a couple of weeks when we will be back here again. They would have sent someone out this weekend but had no slots available.


----------



## JeffBowser

What does that have to do with why D12 was delayed at its testing station beyond expectations?



trdrjeff said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796


----------



## curt8403

JeffBowser said:


> What does that have to do with why D12 was delayed at its testing station beyond expectations?


 maybe it was more like 
Learn all that is learnable, report the same to the creator


----------



## JeffBowser

Maybe so, but the gentleman that posted the comment came across as calling me an idiot that missed something obvious in the D10 thread. Not cool.



curt8403 said:


> maybe it was more like
> Learn all that is learnable, report the same to the creator


----------



## curt8403

JeffBowser said:


> Maybe so, but the gentleman that posted the comment came across as calling me an idiot that missed something obvious in the D10 thread. Not cool.


+1, it was hard for me to gather anything to do with the extra testing on D12 from that thread.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, if you have legitimate complaints, report them or take them to private message. Let's get back to topic.


----------



## hyde76

JeffBowser said:


> What does that have to do with why D12 was delayed at its testing station beyond expectations?


Simply enough, the general consensus is that D12 was delayed so the plan for repairing D10 could be tested.


----------



## jefbal99

puckparent said:


> I called and set up an appointment for a tech to come and realign the dish in a couple of weeks when we will be back here again. They would have sent someone out this weekend but had no slots available.


good idea, those are all very low numbers


----------



## georule

wmb said:


> I'll give a copule of thoughts on this... warning to the J6Ps out there, some science content!


So what I got out of that is if I have (as I do), seven 95s, seven 96s, one 97, and one 85. . . the 97 is probably natural variability, and the 85 probably isn't.


----------



## DaveC27

puckparent said:


> I called and set up an appointment for a tech to come and realign the dish in a couple of weeks when we will be back here again. They would have sent someone out this weekend but had no slots available.





jefbal99 said:


> good idea, those are all very low numbers


Especially if D* are going to be inundated with others who find they can't see D12 clearly when it goes live next week and other channels are swapped over


----------



## Sixto

hyde76 said:


> Simply enough, the general consensus is that D12 was delayed so the plan for repairing D10 could be tested.


Very likely, very related, especially per the "results" comment previously discussed.


----------



## Sixto

Prep work for new HD, clear as day:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2455614#post2455614​
It just get better and better.


----------



## JeffBowser

I must have missed a section in the D10 thread then



Sixto said:


> Very likely, very related, especially per the "results" comment previously discussed.


----------



## Sixto

JeffBowser said:


> I must have missed a section in the D10 thread then


Very easy to miss! 

And we're just reading tea leaves, cryptic comments, and trying some logic.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> What a difference a day makes. My numbers on 103(ca) are now better than those on 103(cb)!


Ditto!

My signal readings are low across the board, but D12 has the strongest signals of the KA satellites...

~Alan


----------



## tonyd79

JeffBowser said:


> I must have missed a section in the D10 thread then


What? You haven't read and memorized all 9800+ posts?

:grin:


----------



## georule

DaveC27 said:


> Especially if D* are going to be inundated with others who find they can't see D12 clearly when it goes live next week and other channels are swapped over


Well. There really *shouldn't* be a lot of those calls. Puckparent's real issue is misalignment having nothing to do with 103ca. 103cb readings suck too.

I haven't seen anything yet (that can't be explained by temporary engineer fiddling with 103ca) where someone who has strong 103cb readings has sucky 103ca readings.

Now, having said that. . . the reality of the matter is that a milestone event like D12 coming online will likely get more people than usual looking at their signal strength meters. And some of them will discover they are far enough from optimum to warrant a call for service to get them peaked.

But really that's only a D12 issue in the sense that D12 coming online was the trigger that made them look in the first place, not that D12 is somehow causing weak signals for them.


----------



## mcnallc1

georule said:


> Now, having said that. . . the reality of the matter is that a milestone event like D12 coming online will likely get more people than usual looking at their signal strength meters. And some of them will discover they are far enough from optimum to warrant a call for service to get them peaked.


This is what happened to me -- After reading this thread and seeing all the signal strengths listed I decided to check what I am getting. My 103(cb) are in the 50s and 103(ca) are in the 20-40s on a clear sunny day.

I called DirecTV and was connected to the protection plan group. I was told that I don't receive any programming (Choice Xtra + HD DVR with premiums) from the 103 sats my HD programming comes from the 119 sats and since I am currently not having a problem the only way I can have someone come out is if I pay $49. Figured I wasn't going to get anywhere with that CSR and plan to call back again later.


----------



## Sixto

mcnallc1 said:


> This is what happened to me -- After reading this thread and seeing all the signal strengths listed I decided to check what I am getting. My 103(cb) are in the 50s and 103(ca) are in the 20-40s on a clear sunny day.
> 
> I called DirecTV and was connected to the protection plan group. I was told that I don't receive any programming (Choice Xtra + HD DVR with premiums) from the 103 sats my HD programming comes from the 119 sats and since I am currently not having a problem the only way I can have someone come out is if I pay $49. Figured I wasn't going to get anywhere with that CSR and plan to call back again later.


That's not good.

MPEG4 HD been on 103 since 2007.

103 (cb) should at least be 80's, but my guy didn't leave until D10/D11 were mid 90's, and he got a great tip.  (which helped with D12 being perfect).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

FWIW, signal strengths in the 90s are great, but in some cases they are overkill. My signals from 103 have never been higher than 85, and they were lower when I was using the old AT-9 dish. Of course, I'm in Southern California where "rain fade" is just a fairy tale that people tell their kids.


----------



## Sixto

Stuart Sweet said:


> FWIW, signal strengths in the 90s are great, but in some cases they are overkill. My signals from 103 have never been higher than 85, and they were lower when I was using the old AT-9 dish. Of course, I'm in Southern California where "rain fade" is just a fairy tale that people tell their kids.


Very true.

Lots of rain and snow here though, with very little effect (because of perfect Dish alignment). Virtually perfect, except for the blizzard this past winter.


----------



## mcnallc1

Sixto said:


> Very true.
> 
> Lots of rain and snow here though, with very little effect (because of perfect Dish alignment). Virtually perfect, except for the blizzard this past winter.


Rain fade is really what pushed me to make the call. If I was getting 50s and never lost signal I wouldn't care but obviously I have some room for improvement.


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Very true.
> 
> Lots of rain and snow here though, with very little effect (because of perfect Dish alignment). Virtually perfect, except for the blizzard this past winter.


Really, I never lost signal with snow, and some storms have been douses.


----------



## DaveC27

I guess I need to make the call to get my dish aligned, I had many times during the winter when the signal went altogether, though the 4" of snow on the dish itself didn't help. I think I had to go up the ladder with a brush 3x this year

Can't they bring out a dish with a heating element


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Very true.
> 
> Lots of rain and snow here though, with very little effect (because of perfect Dish alignment). Virtually perfect, except for the blizzard this past winter.


You inspire me to ask what the signal strength attributes of "perfect" are? 100? 99?

I'm in Minnesota. We get weather here. Even the tornado kind, and in the close vicinity (less than 20 miles?) pretty much every year too, not just at the other end of the state every few years.

I mentioned I've only been doing DirecTV for just about a year. One of the things I was worried about was the "rain fade" horror stories that the cable people try to spread. So I decided to document the first year for myself. Document, as in put every one in a spreadsheet so I could talk about it from documentation rather than anecdotal "I remember this one time. . . ".

My 103s are solidly in the 90s. But it is also worth knowing that between home offices (two) and overlap in schedule between my wife and I (she works evenings at a TV station and stays up later than I do unwinding afterwards) we are using our DirecTV something close to 20hr/day. Obviously, the more you use it, the more you're likely to actually be impacted by a rain fade. If no one is home during the day, and the conditions that would produce a rain fade happen but the TV isn't on, then it didn't happen --right?

Anyway, June 24th will be the one year anniversary, so still time for a couple more as our tornado season gets going in June, usually. All my rain fades were in the summer, none in the winter. I've had 8 for a total of 61 minutes, or roughly 7.5 mins each. I did not (and do not) find that in the least bit unacceptable a result in an area with "real weather".

So, chilluns, peak them dishes if you live where there is weather!


----------



## Beerstalker

That pretty much reflects my experience with weather related outages here in central IL. Although I don't think many of mine have been that long (I would say 3 or 4 min average), but I don't have hard data to back that up.

To me I would much rather have a dozen outages for 5-10 minutes each rather than one or two outages for days at a time like I used to have with Comcast (one time I was without cable for a week after a car accident took out a substation or whatever you call it).


----------



## JeffBowser

What are "douses" ?



Hdhead said:


> Really, I never lost signal with snow, and some storms have been douses.


----------



## Mark Walters

Sorry if this has been asked before, but will we be able to see any of the test channels before they are official next Wednesday, since we have signals from the new satellite? Something in the 9000s perhaps?


----------



## georule

Beerstalker said:


> That pretty much reflects my experience with weather related outages here in central IL. Although I don't think many of mine have been that long (I would say 3 or 4 min average), but I don't have hard data to back that up.
> 
> To me I would much rather have a dozen outages for 5-10 minutes each rather than one or two outages for days at a time like I used to have with Comcast (one time I was without cable for a week after a car accident took out a substation or whatever you call it).


True dat. Looking again, 3 of those 8 were on the same day, and the NOAA weather radar was red over top of us during the entire period. And one of those was 15 mins, which brought the average up on the rest.

Any rate, peaking is worth doing if you get weather, and then rain fades are not much more than a minor nuisance even in a "real weather" area.


----------



## Beerstalker

JeffBowser said:


> What are "douses" ?


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/douse


----------



## Sixto

Mark Walters said:


> Sorry if this has been asked before, but will we be able to see any of the test channels before they are official next Wednesday, since we have signals from the new satellite? Something in the 9000s perhaps?


Nope.

They test, and we watch when "live". 

And the D12 test channels don't seem to be up yet anyway, for those inside folks with engineering cards.


----------



## denco

JeffBowser said:


> What are "douses" ?


Perhaps you were being rhetorical, but if not, I reckon it was supposed to be "doozies*".

*Which, contrary to common belief, is not derived from Duesenberg.


----------



## Standtall29

In south Florida My 103ca Only as like 4 transponders lit with a very low reading. All Other sats 99 101 103b 119 are all in the upper to mid 90s, just don't understand whats going on hr23.


----------



## Hdhead

denco said:


> Perhaps you were being rhetorical, but if not, I reckon it was supposed to be "doozies*".
> 
> *Which, contrary to common belief, is not derived from Duesenberg.


Thanks denco I did mean doozies. Wouldn't you know I get corrected by a first time poster. :lol:

Hey :welcome_s


----------



## ronsm

Stuart Sweet said:


> FWIW, signal strengths in the 90s are great, but in some cases they are overkill. My signals from 103 have never been higher than 85, and they were lower when I was using the old AT-9 dish. Of course, I'm in Southern California where "rain fade" is just a fairy tale that people tell their kids.


Sorry stuart, but it's not a fairy tale to me. I get pixelation, and then the picture locks up. And I live in Torrance. Maybe if I get a realignment, it will be better. My dish is 4 years old, but, they weren't sure it was aligned right for D10 or D11, I forgot which, as it hadn't launched yet. Or is it the receiver? HR20-700.


----------



## AllenE

AllenE said:


> SF Bay Area all 50's and 60's, but noticed some other sats same, so looks like I need some dish work. Sevice guy will be here Friday.


Service guy came. Swapped out sidecar for slimline dish, tweeked allignment, now 90's on everything, even some 100's.

WooHoo (technical term, ask LameLefty)


----------



## Sixto

ronsm said:


> I am envious of everyone. My lowest reading is 32, and my highest is 43. But, I will wait a few more days before I call them. And I live in the L.A. area, 15 minutes from the headquarters.





ronsm said:


> Sorry stuart, but it's not a fairy tale to me. I get pixelation, and then the picture locks up. And I live in Torrance. Maybe if I get a realignment, it will be better. My dish is 4 years old, but, they weren't sure it was aligned right for D10 or D11, I forgot which, as it hadn't launched yet. Or is it the receiver? HR20-700.


Wow, you've actually been running like this? (30's/40's for D10 as well?)

Couldn't imagine ever letting an installer leave without at least 80's (on a clear day). Personally, mid-90's was target in 2007.

Dish alignment is critical, and you hopefully dedicate the time and effort to peak it once, and then set for years to come (hopefully). I check those screens all the time just to keep that good feeling (even though it never changes ).

And powering the Dish/LNBs (SWM, ...) is also a great best practice.


----------



## Rob

Sixto said:


> Wow, you've actually been running like this? (30's/40's for D10 as well?)
> 
> Couldn't imagine ever letting an installer leave without at least 80's (on a clear day). Personally, mid-90's was target in 2007.
> 
> Dish alignment is critical, and you hopefully dedicate the time and effort to peak it once, and then set for years to come (hopefully). I check those screens all the time just to keep that good feeling, even though it never changes.


Looks like his dish was installed pre D10, like mind. I'm in the mostly 70's, low 80's range.


----------



## Sixto

Rob said:


> Looks like his dish was installed pre D10, like mind. I'm in the mostly 70's, low 80's range.


Yep, had them tweak right after D10 went "live" ... long time ago.

Like daily hygiene, check those signal levels a few times a year, at least.  And push, push, and pay if needed to get it perfect.

It's a critical path. Used to do the same with cable and QAM signals. Getting a STRONG signal into the home is priority one for any service. Another reason have fiber to the home with FiOS.


----------



## georule

Sixto said:


> Like daily hygiene. . . a few times a year, at least.


Dang, Mrs. Sixto doesn't at least make you take the Saturday night bath?


----------



## Ken984

My sidecar was installed prior to D10. The installer was lazy, put it on a pole but did not put any concrete in, it fell on its face a week after he left. I had a friend come cement it in and I am not sure how he did it because nobody was home and he could not even check it, but it is peaked well. I get 90+ on every transponder.


----------



## ronsm

I forget which one D10 is. 101 gets 80s and 90s. 99 goes from 50 to 70. Never having seen better, I assumed the picture was as good as I could get, so, everything was ok. Of course, we usually don't get a lot of rain, so, it wasn't a priority issue with me. I can understand how that may be a problem with rain, and not getting a signal, but, is the picture quality on a sunny day going to change with higher numbers, considering we are using a digital signal?


----------



## Sixto

georule said:


> Dang, Mrs. Sixto doesn't at least make you take the Saturday night bath?


Daily signal level checking (like hygiene) is good too, but probably a little overkill.


----------



## slimoli

Standtall29 said:


> In south Florida My 103ca Only as like 4 transponders lit with a very low reading. All Other sats 99 101 103b 119 are all in the upper to mid 90s, just don't understand whats going on hr23.


My readings are not so low but significantly worse than any other sat. 103 CA goes from 90 to 60 depending on the transponder. I have everything else in the high 90s. Perhaps because we are at the end of the footprint ?


----------



## Sixto

ronsm said:


> I forget which one D10 is. 101 gets 80s and 90s. 99 goes from 50 to 70. Never having seen better, I assumed the picture was as good as I could get, so, everything was ok. Of course, we usually don't get a lot of rain, so, it wasn't a priority issue with me. I can understand how that may be a problem with rain, and not getting a signal, but, is the picture quality on a sunny day going to change with higher numbers, considering we are using a digital signal?


If you're getting a clear picture, then PQ is the same, but you're very susceptible to fade.

Target is 90's, for at least some transponders on every CONUS (c) screen. Higher the better, and worth the one-time time/effort investment.


----------



## ronsm

Thanks, maybe next week, after things are live,\ I will call them out.


----------



## slimoli

Isn't that strange when we have a big range on the same satellite ? My CA goes from 91 (transponder 9) to 58 (transponder 22). Can a satellite have different power levels for each transponder ?


----------



## cebbigh

slimoli said:


> Isn't that strange when we have a big range on the same satellite ? My CA goes from 91 (transponder 9) to 58 (transponder 22). Can a satellite have different power levels for each transponder ?


What is your signal on tp19?

As others have said if you have good signal on 103cb then 103ca should be fine after they finish tweaking.

Yes, varied signal levels per transponder are the norm. More so during testing.


----------



## LameLefty

slimoli said:


> Isn't that strange when we have a big range on the same satellite ? My CA goes from 91 (transponder 9) to 58 (transponder 22). Can a satellite have different power levels for each transponder ?


Yes, especially during early testing.


----------



## LameLefty

Rob said:


> Looks like his dish was installed pre D10, like mind. I'm in the mostly 70's, low 80's range.


My dish was installed pre-D10 and peaked about 9 months later (after D10 was launched but during the drift). My 99 signals are fantastic though (the installers both peaked for 99 since my locals were the only MPEG4 I could receive at the time were from there). I ought to get my dish replaced with a Slimline 5 someday, along with a good alignment, but my signals are still 85 - 92 on 103(ca) and between 88 and 94 on 103(cb).


----------



## Jeremy W

georule said:


> You inspire me to ask what the signal strength attributes of "perfect" are? 100? 99?


Perfect is 100, period. Acceptable is a much wider range. It's not possible to have 100s on every transponder.


----------



## tacua

I have two H21/200, one is 60ft. away from the dish and the other 20 ft.away.
The closest one gets better signal readings (+8 points) on ca 103 than the other. I use a wb68 and a sonora pi from the dish to the receivers. Why will this happen?


----------



## MikeR7

ca

81 76 80 76 79 75 77 75
78 74 71 73 77 73 79 73

cb

85 74 81 72 82 76 80 76
82 77 82 77 83 79

I have always been under the protection plan. It was my understanding that they would not roll a truck unless the signals were below 70? Or has that changed?


----------



## sigma1914

:lol: All this panic over, "are my signal strengths high enough," are too funny. Calm down...take a deep breath...and if you're below 80s on the majority, call them or tinker at your own risk.


----------



## MikeR7

I am not panicked. But when an expert like Sixto says they should all be over 90 it makes me wonder.


----------



## Crow159

I tinkered with mine tonight. I went from 50s and 60s on D12 to 80s and 90s.


----------



## retromzc

Wednesday was the first time I had checked signal levels in quite a while. I was surprised to see how low my readings were. No wonder I'd been having so much rain fade lately. The last time I had checked them they were quite good. Now, both 103ca & cb trasnponders ranged from 44-70%. Only sat. 101 was in the 90% range. I went out to check the dish and found 2 loose nuts. First I gave the dish a light tap more toward the south and voila, all signals on all sats are back in the mid to upper 90's! I suppose I lucked out being able to do this myself rather than calling Directv.


----------



## Sixto

MikeR7 said:


> ... says they should all be over 90 it makes me wonder.


Just to be clear ... not necessarily every transponder, but certainly some on every CONUS (c) screen.


----------



## MikeR7

Sixto said:


> Just to be clear ... not necessarily every transponder, but certainly some on every CONUS (c) screen.


I have at least one 90 on my 101, 110, 119, 99c and 100 on my 99s locals TP. 103 are the only laggards. I don't really have much of a problem with rain and or snow fade, and we get a lot of rain and snow here. It has to be a pretty major downpour, or very large heavy snow flakes to interrupt the signal.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> If you're getting a clear picture, then PQ is the same, but you're very susceptible to fade.
> 
> Target is 90's, for at least some transponders on every CONUS (c) screen. Higher the better, and worth the one-time time/effort investment.


OK, I've tried to resist but I can't!
Self installed AT-9 Dish 10/2005!
I ordered a dish from Solid Signal BEFORE they knew they could only ship to Detroit DMA for KA/MPEG4 test market.
That dish is still my primary dish.

I'm a Directv freak and have parallel MDU setups in my home with multiple "portable" setups that i'm constantly experimenting with. An AT-9 and AU-9 are permanent.

See my 5 (almost) year old AT-9 results.
Tweaked once after D-10 online but only slightly.

Not bad if I do say so myself!

Doctor j


----------



## slimoli

cebbigh said:


> What is your signal on tp19?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> TP 19 is at 75. No panic, just trying to learn. 103(cb) looks great, all above 95.


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> ...Not bad if I do say so myself!


That is just beautiful.

(I know, gotta get a life )


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> That is just beautiful.
> 
> (I know, gotta get a life )


Well my life is fancy PLUMBING.

Interventional Cardiology IE: Acute MI's, Balloons, Angioplasty & Stents.

I am, however, an SBCA Level 1, 2 ,3, MDU, SWM, & COM1000 certified installer.

Talk about getting a life??

Doctor j


----------



## Standtall29

Thanks much that could be the case.


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Not bad if I do say so myself!
> 
> Doctor j


Doc, if you ever want to take a little three hour jaunt up to the Nashville 'burbs (I-65/I-565), you can come tweak my dish.


----------



## SpaceComo

I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:

99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


----------



## sigma1914

LameLefty said:


> Doc, if you ever want to take a little three hour jaunt up to the Nashville 'burbs (I-65/I-565), you can come tweak my dish.


Get a room you two! :lol:


----------



## bearcat250

bearcat250 said:


> Why so many zreo's on 103 ca?
> 
> 9-16 77 77 77 77 69 56 40 0
> 17-24 0 0 0 0 31 0 48 42
> 
> I'm in NH


14 hours later and the numbers are almost the same

9 - 16 69 76 74 74 40 50 0 0
17 - 24 0 0 0 0 28 0 40 33

Stiil an awful lot of zero's


----------



## jefbal99

SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:
> 
> 99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
> 103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


That's some cool stuff there


----------



## doctor j

LameLefty said:


> Doc, if you ever want to take a little three hour jaunt up to the Nashville 'burbs (I-65/I-565), you can come tweak my dish.


Would love to come to Nashville!
Sorry about all the water earlier this month!
Will PM you some info!

Doctor j


----------



## Hdhead

SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:
> 
> 99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
> 103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


Pretty cool put makes no sense to this clueless person. Though I was looking at a seismograph of LA.:eek2:


----------



## mp12point7

105 posts to go. All numbers at or above 97 in Macclenny, FL (Jacksonville area).


----------



## gully_foyle

Hmmm, I get great signal (95+) on 101, 110 and 119 (which are all MPEG2) and low 60's on the 99 & 99s and high 50s on the 103 sats. Funny I should get the outlier sats and not the closer in ones. Is this alignment or an LNB issue?


----------



## bobnielsen

gully_foyle said:


> Hmmm, I get great signal (95+) on 101, 110 and 119 (which are all MPEG2) and low 60's on the 99 & 99s and high 50s on the 103 sats. Funny I should get the outlier sats and not the closer in ones. Is this alignment or an LNB issue?


It is an alignment issue. The beamwidth for 99 and 103 is narrower than for 101, 110 and 119, so pointing is more critical.


----------



## isuquinndog

Wow, on 103(s) I have:

0 0 0 0 0 0 NA NA
NA NA NA NA NA NA 72 0
0 89 0 100 61 63 80 85

Is there any thing on Transponders 1-8 that I need to fix that?


----------



## Tom Robertson

isuquinndog said:


> Wow, on 103(s) I have:
> 
> 0 0 0 0 0 0 NA NA
> NA NA NA NA NA NA 72 0
> 0 89 0 100 61 63 80 85
> 
> Is there any thing on Transponders 1-8 that I need to fix that?


Wrong satellite grouping. You want 103(ca).

103(s) are spotbeams. It is very common to only have a couple with any signal strength.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## renbutler

retromzc said:


> Wednesday was the first time I had checked signal levels in quite a while. I was surprised to see how low my readings were. No wonder I'd been having so much rain fade lately. The last time I had checked them they were quite good. Now, both 103ca & cb trasnponders ranged from 44-70%. Only sat. 101 was in the 90% range. I went out to check the dish and found 2 loose nuts. First I gave the dish a light tap more toward the south and voila, all signals on all sats are back in the mid to upper 90's! I suppose I lucked out being able to do this myself rather than calling Directv.


Dang, I just checked my signals for the first time in months. Same thing for me -- I'm in the 30s to 50s on 103(ca). My 103(cb) is all 50s.

I could get on the roof tomorrow, but I'm afraid I'll just make it worse. We've had some rain fade issues, but usually the SD signals still get through.


----------



## doctor j

SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:
> 
> 99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
> 103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


I have a GIANT case of "meter envy"
That could be the 8th deadly sin.

I would certainly like a good 3GHz + Spectrum Analyzer to experiment with.

Great pixs.
You can really educate the masses with that data!

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:
> 
> 99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
> 103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


Thanks for pictures.

Now if you could tell me how you get them ? 
I'm not sure if the Agilent SA could send out 22 KHz tone. 
What point(s) you connected it ?


----------



## SpaceComo

P Smith said:


> Thanks for pictures.
> 
> Now if you could tell me how you get them ?
> I'm not sure if the Agilent SA could send out 22 KHz tone.
> What point(s) you connected it ?


H21 receiver sends out 22KHz and 13 or 18v polarization change. See the setup picture below on how I configured and made the measurements.


----------



## cebbigh

slimoli said:


> cebbigh said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is your signal on tp19?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> TP 19 is at 75. No panic, just trying to learn. 103(cb) looks great, all above 95.
> 
> 
> 
> My tp19 on my hr20-100 same reading. hr 21-700 sitting a few inches away is low 80's. tp21 both dishes above 90. As long as you are getting signal high 80's and 90's on other tp's you should be fine after all the testing is done.
Click to expand...


----------



## cebbigh

All you need is a compass, a couple of phones and a very patient accomplice willing to read numbers long enough to verify you've got it pointed at a spot in the sky that yields the best possible signals coming from the sats you care about. 

D has always had great solid signals on their sats. It's really come a long ways for both providers.


----------



## P Smith

SpaceComo said:


> H21 receiver sends out 22KHz and 13 or 18v polarization change. See the setup picture below on how I configured and made the measurements.


I see ... Splitter used ...


----------



## georule

doctor j said:


> OK, I've tried to resist but I can't!





SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist.


Uh oh! The e-penises (err, D*-penises?) are getting slapped on the table now! :lol:


----------



## denco

103(ca) - South Central Colorado


Code:


 9-16  83  89  79  80  84  86  74  79
17-24  79  86  69  82  82  87  83  86


----------



## hyde76

You know, liability not withstanding, are there any dish tweaking tutorials for those of us that don't have the protection plan, so maybe the few of us that are willing to risk going up on a ladder could do the work ourselves? I'm in Newport Beach in So. Cal and given what I'm seeing here both on ca and cb, an adjustment is needed.


----------



## de_runner

Bakersfield, CA 

103(ca)

79 74 79 74 77 72 76 73
76 70 70 74 76 71 79 75

103 (cb)

82 78 83 73 78 73 80 71
79 73 82 74 80 75

Same approximate signal strength as last two nights. Signal strengths on 101, 110, 119, and SWM generally in 90's. Signal strengths on 99 (c) range from 73 to 85.


----------



## Jon J

doctor j said:


> Would love to come to Nashville!
> Sorry about all the water earlier this month!
> Will PM you some info!
> 
> Doctor j


I'll help share the cost of a tweak trip! Even show you my big C-band unit still on the roof.


----------



## smiddy

SpaceComo said:


> I could not resist. Had to take the high$ SA home tonight from work. Here are the spectrum stacks as viewed from Philadelphia area on an SL3. Enjoy, I will comment the pictures with the details early in the week if anyone wants to know. Done for the night, going to have a drink :grin:
> 
> 99 LHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 99 RHCP shows DTV11 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and Spaceway 2 on right.
> 103 LHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.
> 103 RHCP shows DTV10 on left stack, DTV4s/8 on center (SD Ku channels), and the highly anticipated DTV12 on right.


Where is this signal taken from, at the output of the antenna or at the input of an STB?


----------



## betterdan

Getting 80s and 90s on 103ca. :biggthump
Mainly 90s and a few 100s on all others.


----------



## hjones4841

Twice this morning starting at about 6:15 CDT a recorded program that I was watching dropped back to live, which was on TWC, 362. Could this be shuffling for the fix for D10?


----------



## smiddy

After the first day, I revisited my satellite strengths:



{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
1 - 8|89|92|86|87|85|88|82|85
9 - 16|83|88|80|84|83|89|N/A|N/A
17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
9 - 16|89|88|84|84|88|88|83|86
17 - 24|86|89|81|85|83|86|83|85
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}
O'Fallon, MO​


----------



## juliob61

hjones4841 said:


> Twice this morning starting at about 6:15 CDT a recorded program that I was watching dropped back to live, which was on TWC, 362. Could this be shuffling for the fix for D10?


For what it's worth, my DVR occasionally will switch to live TV in the middle of my watching a recorded program. It has been doing that since before D12 became operational.


----------



## puckparent

Really disappointed as yesterday afternoon my 103(ca) signal strength went to 30s to 50s with no zeros so I was hopeful it would be better today. Now I am back to almost all zeros with a few 20s and one 30s. I am in the south central part of Wisconsin. Guess I won't be canceling my appointment for the tech to come out.


----------



## cebbigh

puckparent said:


> Really disappointed as yesterday afternoon my 103(ca) signal strength went to 30s to 50s with no zeros so I was hopeful it would be better today. Now I am back to almost all zeros with a few 20s and one 30s. I am in the south central part of Wisconsin. Guess I won't be canceling my appointment for the tech to come out.


No change here in western Minnesota. Still see all readings in 90s and 80s with lone exception of tp 19 (74-76 on hr20-100 and 79-81 on hr 21-700). Good idea to keep the appointment.


----------



## cebbigh

smiddy said:


> After the first day, I revisited my satellite strengths:
> 
> 
> 
> {colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
> 1 - 8|89|92|86|87|85|88|82|85
> 9 - 16|83|88|80|84|83|89|N/A|N/A
> 17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> 25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> {colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
> 1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> 9 - 16|89|88|84|84|88|88|83|86
> 17 - 24|86|89|81|85|83|86|83|85
> 25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> {colsp=9}
> O'Fallon, MO​




{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
1 - 8|92|92|90|86|88|89|88|86
9 - 16|89|88|89|86|88|88|N/A|N/A
17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
9 - 16|95|92|94|86|95|90|90|85
17 - 24|92|88|75|85|93|89|95|91
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}
Ulen, MN​
That's a really cool table. Hope you don't mind that I used it to post.


----------



## Tonedeaf

Mid 80's and 1 0 on 23 for me just East of Dallas.


----------



## LameLefty

Signals are significantly today. 



Code:


Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
1 - 8		91	92	89	92	88	92	87	92
9 - 16		89	92	88	93	92	95	N/A	N/A
17 - 24		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16		95	93	94	91	95	91	91	92
17 - 24		92	92	81	91	91	91	93	94
25 - 32		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> *Signals are significantly today*.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
> 1 - 8		91	92	89	92	88	92	87	92
> 9 - 16		89	92	88	93	92	95	N/A	N/A
> 17 - 24		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
> 25 - 32		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
> Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
> 1 - 8		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
> 9 - 16		95	93	94	91	95	91	91	92
> 17 - 24		92	92	81	91	91	91	93	94
> 25 - 32		N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A


Significantly what?


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Significantly what?


Hung over. 

Er, I mean, "improved."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Hung over.
> 
> Er, I mean, "improved."


:lol: Figured....but I always feel better when a Rocket Scientist tells me so.


----------



## GregLee

{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
1 - 8|80|70|69|74|79|73|75|73
9 - 16|77|74|82|76|79|70|N/A|N/A
17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
9 - 16|76|79|78|77|74|77|75|79
17 - 24|79|72|63|76|81|73|80|74
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}
Honolulu, HI​


----------



## dlott

My numbers:



{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
1 - 8|89|90|94|90|91|85|89|89
9 - 16|85|86|90|92|86|91|N/A|N/A
17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
9 - 16|94|91|92|94|95|92|95|95
17 - 24|95|94|94|95|95|95|96|96
25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
{colsp=9}
Little Rock, AR​
I had a really good installer put up my dish after I had my roof replaced after a hail storm. He even replaced my connectors because he didn't like them compared to the ones he had with him.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Where is this signal taken from, at the output of the antenna or at the input of an STB?


Umm, post # 9905 ?


----------



## smiddy

SpaceComo said:


> H21 receiver sends out 22KHz and 13 or 18v polarization change. See the setup picture below on how I configured and made the measurements.


Kewl, you can effectively add 3 dB to those signal levels if that is all that is within the path.


----------



## smiddy

cebbigh said:


> {colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
> 1 - 8|92|92|90|86|88|89|88|86
> 9 - 16|89|88|89|86|88|88|N/A|N/A
> 17 - 24|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> 25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> {colsp=9}Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
> 1 - 8|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> 9 - 16|95|92|94|86|95|90|90|85
> 17 - 24|92|88|75|85|93|89|95|91
> 25 - 32|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
> {colsp=9}
> Ulen, MN​
> That's a really cool table. Hope you don't mind that I used it to post.


Heck no, anything I add to the improvement of this awesome community is all good, be my guest!


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Umm, post # 9905 ?


Yep, see my post after your post...thanks!


----------



## seern

I am not going to post all the tp's, but here in central Virginia all except 19 are in the mid to high 90's and 19 is upper 80's.


----------



## cebbigh

smiddy said:


> Yep, see my post after your post...thanks!


You sir, are a gentle-ogre and a scholar.


----------



## cmasia

Indianapolis here. 12:15PM Saturday.

Lowest reading is on tp. 22

And that reading is 94 !


----------



## cavinny

Wow, I haven't checked signals in a year. They look off in Southern CA. I will have to use the sling box and a PC on the roof again to peak.

Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb)) 
1 - 8	75	55	67	44	75	57	63	43
9 - 16	76	58	68	44	78	57	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca)) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	70	33	71	32	67	30	68	31
17 - 24	64	25	56	23	60	24	58	26
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Murrieta CA 

Satellite Transponders (28 total at 101) 
1 - 8	93	94	94	0	95	97	94	96
9 - 16	93	95	93	0	95	97	92	97
17 - 24	87	100	89	0	95	96	93	96
25 - 32	95	0	90	100	91	96	92	94
Satellite Transponders (3 total at 110) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	87
9 - 16	N/A	88	N/A	87	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	nn	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Satellite Transponder (13 total at 119) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	87	0	0
25 - 32	96	88	95	90	0	93	55	94

Satellite Transponder (14 total at 99c ) 
1 - 8	69	54	70	53	68	53	68	49
9 - 16	68	55	66	48	70	56	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A

Satellite Transponder (1 total at 99s) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	89	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A

Satellite Transponder (3 total at 103s) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	100	N/A	100	0	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A


----------



## cebbigh

Just curious. Is anyone out there with an HR2x-100 getting tp19 at a level consistent with the other transponders?

Not worried at all if tp19 stays consistently above 74. It's a lot better than dealing with a signal that yoyo's. I've done that before (that's what led me to change to D in 2007).


----------



## -Draino-

cebbigh said:


> Just curious. Is anyone out there with an HR2x-100 getting tp19 at a level consistent with the other transponders?
> 
> Not worried at all if tp19 stays consistently above 74. It's a lot better than dealing with a signal that yoyo's. I've done that before (that's what led me to change to D in 2007).


Weird I have low 90's and high 80's everywhere on 103(ca) except TP23 which is only 48???


----------



## skizer

Here in Central Indiana, 

All are at least 94 (most are 95-97), with the exception of 19 which is only at 85.


----------



## prushing

cebbigh said:


> Just curious. Is anyone out there with an HR2x-100 getting tp19 at a level consistent with the other transponders?
> 
> Not worried at all if tp19 stays consistently above 74. It's a lot better than dealing with a signal that yoyo's. I've done that before (that's what led me to change to D in 2007).


mine is lower than all the rest, 81-83, others are 91-95


----------



## jm42001

Can't wait to see what they have planned for this Sat.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

On my HR21-100 transponder 19 is about 10 points lower then all my other receivers.

That's kinda odd.

Mike


----------



## curt8403

jm42001 said:


> Can't wait to see what they have planned for this Sat.


 at first, a replacement for D10, plus a few New HD channels


----------



## miller24

Ouch. Signals in the 50's and 60's on 103*(ca)

TP19 is at 48


----------



## LameLefty

MicroBeta said:


> On my HR21-100 transponder 19 is about 10 points lower then all my other receivers.
> 
> That's kinda odd.
> 
> Mike


I don't know; Tp 19 is an odd bird. It's lower on two of my boxes (an HR22-100 and an HR21-700) by about 8 - 10 points as compared to two others (HR24-500 and H24-100). Now, those two are on different SWM8 modules, though each have a homerun connection back to the SWM.


----------



## Groundhog45

hyde76 said:


> You know, liability not withstanding, are there any dish tweaking tutorials for those of us that don't have the protection plan, so maybe the few of us that are willing to risk going up on a ladder could do the work ourselves? I'm in Newport Beach in So. Cal and given what I'm seeing here both on ca and cb, an adjustment is needed.


Check on the Solid Signal site.

Here is a copy of the installation manual.

Here are the disk specification charts with some DirecTV installation videos toward the bottom of the page.

Many people use the method of having someone in front of the TV watching the signal meters while they go on the roof to tweak. A cell phone or walkie talkies work pretty good.

Disclaimer: Don't try this unless you're comfortable getting on the roof or on a ladder. Use a sharpie to mark the starting points on the adjustments so you can undo any changes that don't work. Good luck and be careful.


----------



## HarleyD

Interesting.

103(ca) is showing all zeros on all TPs on tuner 1 and 95 or better on all TPs on tuner 2 (HR20-700).

103(cb) is showing in the 90s on all TPs on both tuners.

I'm not going to worry about it right now but that is strange. 

When I can't tune in a channel I want to watch or record then I'll worry about something. Right now everything's up in the air (no pun intended).


Fascinating (cue Carl Spock).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I don't know; Tp 19 is an odd bird. It's lower on two of my boxes (an HR22-100 and an HR21-700) by about 8 - 10 points as compared to two others (HR24-500 and H24-100). Now, those two are on different SWM8 modules, though each have a homerun connection back to the SWM.


Its reported lower virtually everywhere..only a few points lower here (4 on average when I check), but still at 90 here. I've seen others much lower.

As Lefty said...something must be going on with that one...could just be configuration at this point. Its simply too early to tell.


----------



## Stewpidity

skizer said:


> Here in Central Indiana,
> 
> All are at least 94 (most are 95-97), with the exception of 19 which is only at 85.





MicroBeta said:


> On my HR21-100 transponder 19 is about 10 points lower then all my other receivers.
> 
> That's kinda odd.
> 
> Mike


same here, all TP's are in the mid 90's except TP 19 which is mid 70's (on 103ca)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

LameLefty said:


> I don't know; Tp 19 is an odd bird. It's lower on two of my boxes (an HR22-100 and an HR21-700) by about 8 - 10 points as compared to two others (HR24-500 and H24-100). Now, those two are on different SWM8 modules, though each have a homerun connection back to the SWM.


TP 19 all done within 3 minutes and all on the same SWiM LNB.

HR21-100 - 86
HR23-700 - 95
HR24-500 - 95
H24-100 - 92

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stewpidity said:


> same here, all TP's are in the mid 90's except TP 19 which is mid 70's (on 103ca)


Is it in the mid 70s on all your receivers?

Mike


----------



## Stewpidity

MicroBeta said:


> Is it in the mid 70s on all your receivers?
> 
> Mike


yes I have an HR20 & HR21

edit..Just checked the HR21 TP19 is at 82 now


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stewpidity said:


> yes I have an HR20 & HR21


What the manufacturers?

Mike


----------



## Stewpidity

MicroBeta said:


> What the manufacturers?
> 
> Mike


no idea, where would I find that info


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewpidity said:


> no idea, where would I find that info


They should have a model number on the unit like HR21-200, for example. The 3 digits to the right indicate the manufacturer number.


----------



## -Draino-

If I wanted to adjust my dish to get a better signal could I adjust to get the best signal from D12 and all others would fall in line, or would I use a different satellite?


----------



## Stewpidity

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They should have a model number on the unit like HR21-200, for example. The 3 digits to the right indicate the manufacturer number.


Hr21-200
Hr20-100


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stewpidity said:


> Hr21-200
> Hr20-100


My low reading is on a -100.

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stewpidity said:


> Hr21-200
> Hr20-100


The HR21 is a Samsung.
The HR20 is a Thompson (formerly RCA)

The HR20-100's have had some added reports of issues, when compared to the overall HR2x lineup.


----------



## Stewpidity

MicroBeta said:


> My low reading is on a -100.
> 
> Mike


i guess mine is as well, HR21 just showed 82, can't check the HR20 right now


----------



## Stewpidity

just checked HR20 it shows TP19 at 77, all others in the 90's


----------



## slimoli

I have the same readings on 3 HR22-100 and 1 H21-200. Transponders 9 to 17 all above 82 but from 18 to 24 are 70's and 60's . It didn't change last 2 days and I have a feeling it won't improve since many other members reported all transponders already in the 90's. I can't figure why my 103 (cb) has all transponders from 95 to 100 and the 103 (ca) is so different.


----------



## sbl

Nashua, NH, HR21-700

Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))

9-16 95 92 92 90 90 87 89 88
17-24 89 87 80 86 86 86 89 86

I didn't write down the 103(cb) numbers.


----------



## clevfandad

Before I go climbing on the roof, is anyone in California seeing numbers in the 90's?


----------



## David Ortiz

clevfandad said:


> Before I go climbing on the roof, is anyone in California seeing numbers in the 90's?


I have a couple of transponders in the low 90s, all 82 or higher.


----------



## dlt21

72-82

woodland hills 91367


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

David Ortiz said:


> I have a couple of transponders in the low 90s, all 82 or higher.


82-89 here in the south end of San Diego


----------



## DanER40

I am in the 30's.


----------



## HoTat2

From 77 to 82 here in South L.A. with one, tp. 19 at a low of 70 on 103(ca) at the moment. So-so numbers I guess ...


----------



## Garry

Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb)) 
1 - 8 76	59	72	53	74	59	69	56
9 - 16	73	58	70	59	74	59	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca)) 
1 - 8 N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	73	51	71	54	70	51	68	57``
17 - 24	70	53	60	55	68	51	64	48
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
(Boston, Ma area)

I don't remember the last time I checked the readings.
I have had rain/snow fade problems at times.

I guess I need to have the dish aligned. I do have the protection plan, which is good because I am not getting up on my roof.

Maybe they can install MRV/DECA at the same time.


----------



## MadMac

clevfandad said:


> Before I go climbing on the roof, is anyone in California seeing numbers in the 90's?


A couple of minutes ago:


----------



## MadMac

From the posts I've seen from CA, there's quite a number of folks with similar numbers. I think there's still some 'fine tuning' going on.


----------



## Matt9876

Thanks MadMac for the pictures,currently don't have a DirecTV receiver but need to stay updated to the latest setup screens. ThankYou!!


I agree more signal is needed but anything above 70 works.


----------



## tzphotos.com

Stewpidity said:


> same here, all TP's are in the mid 90's except TP 19 which is mid 70's (on 103ca)


I am getting the same thing in Chicago.


----------



## P Smith

MadMac said:


> A couple of minutes ago:


Remove BBC and you'll get +3 or 4 points.


----------



## hyde76

MadMac said:


> A couple of minutes ago:


In Newport Beach this morning, I had similar numbers. A DTV installer was next door upgrading the neighbor's dish and I asked him to come over and tweak our dish. When he was done, three minutes later, numbers were in the low 90's or high 80's. He said it was a very minor tweak.


----------



## houskamp

P Smith said:


> Remove BBC and you'll get +3 or 4 points.


 remove them and you will loose all the 103s..


----------



## longrider

The TP19 issue is still there, I get low to mid 90s on everything except 19 which is at 78


----------



## slimoli

longrider said:


> The TP19 issue is still there, I get low to mid 90s on everything except 19 which is at 78


I have 2 tp lower than the 19. tp 22 and 24 are low 60s and tp 19 is 74. All other satellites/transponders are higher than 90.


----------



## P Smith

houskamp said:


> remove them and you will loose all the 103s..


I did and nothing happened - that 103W SS screen continue updating. I expect to see D12 Conus in 1650-2150 MHz range.
Did you try it ?


----------



## Dolly

Odd my numbers had gone up from 80's to a mix of 80's and 90's, but I checked just now and they are down in the 70's :eek2: I hate to sound so stupid, but when it comes to things like this I am :blush: But do the signals change any from day to night?


----------



## gumball69

Signal will fluctuate based on the cloud settings and the accuracy of the alignment. However, because the D12 is in tests, who knows, maybe they may tweak the signal every now and then, depending on what they are testing/trying to accomplish


----------



## cavinny

I think there is something going on with California. I haven't check the readings in a year and I find this:

I am not having in issues since rain fade is a fairy tale without rain 10 months a year.

Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb)) 
1 - 8	75	55	67	44	75	57	63	43
9 - 16	76	58	68	44	78	57	N/A	N/A
17 - 24	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca)) 
1 - 8	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
9 - 16	70	33	71	32	67	30	68	31
17 - 24	64	25	56	23	60	24	58	26
25 - 32	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A
Murrieta CA


----------



## P Smith

Bay Area, H20-600, AU-9:


----------



## cartrivision

clevfandad said:


> Before I go climbing on the roof, is anyone in California seeing numbers in the 90's?
> 
> 
> MadMac said:
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of minutes ago:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22063&d=1273970431
> http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22064&d=1273970431
Click to expand...

Don't ever expect 90s on 103 and 99 in Southern California (except for the spot beams). You will unlikely ever get much higher than what MadMac posted above. I get very similar after carefully trying to tweak them higher. I believe that by design of the CONUS beam coverage patterns, we get a slightly weaker signal in Southern California due to the fact that the danger of rain fade is typically next to non-existent for about 360 or more days out of the year.


----------



## shy007

All my numbers on the new satellite are in middle to high 90s except transponder 19 is low 80s. I'm not familiar with all this technology but is this normal and is transponder 19 okay?


----------



## FHSPSU67

shy007 said:


> All my numbers on the new satellite are in middle to high 90s except transponder 19 is low 80s. I'm not familiar with all this technology but is this normal and is transponder 19 okay?


If you read through the past few pages, there's a lot of people with low sigs on TP19. Personally, my TP19 is pretty much the same as others, and higher than some. I believe that they are still fine-tuning D12 and that's what causes these seeming discrepancies.


----------



## Steve

Getting good signals this morning in NY, about 15-20 miles NE of NYC:


----------



## doctor j

Disappointed in the overnight shift!

I just knew this thread would be >10,000 replies and possibly >1,000,000 views by this morning!!

Did you all party last night and forget to check your D-12 fix every hour??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Disappointed in the overnight shift!
> 
> I just knew this thread would be >10,000 replies and possibly >1,000,000 views by this morning!!
> 
> Did you all party last night and forget to check your D-12 fix every hour??
> 
> Doctor j


Today is the day.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Today is the day.


You sir , deserve the honor!:joy:

Doctor j


----------



## SPACEMAKER

10,000 before noon.


----------



## dennisj00

North of Charlotte, TP19 is still the lowest with 84, others ranging from 88-97.

10,000 on its way! Go for it Sixto. . .


----------



## raoul5788

dennisj00 said:


> North of Charlotte, TP19 is still the lowest with 84, others ranging from 88-97.
> 
> 10,000 on its way! Go for it Sixto. . .


If anyone BUT Sixto makes the 10,000 post, I vote he be banned for a week! :hurah: (I'm only half joking!)


----------



## LameLefty

Doing my part . . .

Low - mid 70's here in solid, steady rain and overcast. Blech.


----------



## Go Beavs

From 5/12...



Go Beavs said:


> SW Washington...
> 103(ca)
> 
> 77 81 86 85 91 86 85 87
> 89 92 77 86 91 93 90 90


Currently...

103(ca)

92 92 87 86 91 91 86 86
89 92 77 85 91 91 91 90

Both results from an HR22-100


----------



## DodgerKing

Everyone is waiting for someone else to post so they can be #10,000 :lol:


----------



## DodgerKing

70's-90's here


----------



## Sixto

And here we go ...


----------



## Sixto

Again!

And thanks to all for following the Thread. Been a nice two-year ride.

For a few more days ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Gee...you'd almost think there was some vague interest in new HD channels or something...happy 10K for D12 posts to all. 

Based on several days of solid results and today's readings...D12 is ready and able to launch the first group of new HD content as expected.


----------



## raoul5788

Sixto said:


> Again!


And we have a winner! 10,000! Fhew! I was afraid I was going to accidentally hit the send button and get myself banned!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Again!
> 
> And thanks to all for following the Thread. Been a nice two-year ride.
> 
> For a few more days ...


So....about time to start that D14 thread soon....eh?


----------



## Go Beavs

Sixto said:


> Again!
> 
> And thanks to all for following the Thread. Been a nice two-year ride.
> 
> For a few more days ...


Others here have said this and now it's my turn...

Thanks Sixto for all your hard work and time you put into this thread (and others). I've enjoyed following along and learning about D12 (among other things ) and I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done here.

Thanks


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Again!
> 
> And thanks to all for following the Thread. Been a nice two-year ride.
> 
> For a few more days ...


Outstanding Work!!!
Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So....about time to start that D14 thread soon....eh?


Have to think that one through.

We may decide to have a summary thread for any future discussion, but first will get through D12 and all the D10 discussion over the next month or two.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Have to think that one through.
> 
> We may decide to have a summary thread for any future discussion, but first will get through D12 and all the D10 discussion over the next month or two.


It certainly is "early" in the process.


----------



## smiddy

When will the switch-over occur (unless I misunderstood the previous postings) between D12 and D10?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> When will the switch-over occur (unless I misunderstood the previous postings) between D12 and D10?


Not exactly yet sure.

Tracking it daily.

Was assuming that they've do a national transponder or group of transponders at a time, but maybe the engineers have a different plan. Just seems better to phase it in.

The biggest challenge is LiL. They have 400 LiL to move, now that's a major effort.


----------



## smiddy

Yep, you've put that into some perspective for me, and I agree, it isn't a small task to do. Phasing the maps between the two makes perfect sense, instead of one major step function.  However it is done, I look forward to this momentous event as a major engineering feat!


----------



## tonyd79

Sixto said:


> Not exactly yet sure.
> 
> Tracking it daily.
> 
> Was assuming that they've do a national transponder or group of transponders at a time, but maybe the engineers have a different plan. Just seems better to phase it in.
> 
> The biggest challenge is LiL. They have 400 LiL to move, now that's a major effort.


makefile

(Showing my age.)

Depends on how disruptive it is. Might be better to shove it all over at once if it is disruptive. Everyone's service goes funny for a few minutes on all channels rather than a rolling funniess.

If it is not noticeable, roll them slowly.


----------



## HelenWeathers

I'm one of those people who generally just sit on the sidelines and watch this thread. I really appreciate all of the work that Sixto and others do for those of us that tune in to this thread. Thank You!



Sixto said:


> The biggest challenge is LiL. They have 400 LiL to move, now that's a major effort.


The amount of work that has to be done to replace D10 with D12 is an indication to me that DirecTV has a rather high degree of certainty that they can gain substantial improvement for D10. That's a good thing.


----------



## LameLefty

tonyd79 said:


> makefile
> 
> (Showing my age.)
> 
> Depends on how disruptive it is. Might be better to shove it all over at once if it is disruptive. Everyone's service goes funny for a few minutes on all channels rather than a rolling funniess.
> 
> If it is not noticeable, roll them slowly.


How fast they transfer the load may have as much to do with the spacecraft itself as anything: the spacecraft system controllers have to be able to accept and begin repeating all that traffic; it might take some time to get those signal paths all up and running.


----------



## Stevies3

Clear day in Long Island, NY (11797)

103 (ca)

9-16 95 91 92 89 96 95 95 95
17-24 95 94 95 93 95 92 96 94


----------



## Bluegrassman

Very overcast day in West KY


----------



## bobnielsen

I suspect we will still have a lot to discuss regarding the RB-2A (BSS) portion of D12. Perhaps a separate thread?


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> I suspect we will still have a lot to discuss regarding the RB-2A (BSS) portion of D12. Perhaps a separate thread?


Good thought. We'll doing something. Thx.


----------



## FarNorth

Clear day, SC Alaska, dish hasn't been adjusted in a couple of years:

103 cb

95 95 93 94 89 95 90 95 
88 95 93 95 90 96 NA NA
17-32 NA

For comparison:

103 ca

1-8 NA
88 89 91 88 85 89 90 84
87 82 81 85 88 55 94 83
25-32 NA

101 

90 74 79 0 89 91 76 91
89 75 76 0 91 90 73 89
86 0 76 0 83 85 57 80
82 0 76 0 0 86 82 68 85

99c

74 86 63 82 72 86 66 83
72 87 69 82 78 91 NA NA
17-32 NA

Still have 110 and 119 up but lost tune on 119 and guide data so reconfigured 2 main DVRs to ignore them. 110 gets a decent signal, 119 does not.


----------



## cebbigh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Gee...you'd almost think there was some vague interest in new HD channels or something...happy 10K for D12 posts to all.
> 
> Based on several days of solid results and today's readings...D12 is ready and able to launch the first group of new HD content as expected.


Great numbers there. Mine are about the same here in the Heartland except for TP 19 which remains around 75. Probably fine with that number anyway.

Looks like tp 19 is generally stronger in the east and weaker in the central and west. Wonder if that will relate to what they map to it.


----------



## Jeremy W

LameLefty said:


> How fast they transfer the load may have as much to do with the spacecraft itself as anything: the spacecraft system controllers have to be able to accept and begin repeating all that traffic; it might take some time to get those signal paths all up and running.


I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that D12 (and all DirecTV satellites aside from the Spaceways) use a simple "bent pipe" design where they basically just receive the signal, amplify it, and shoot it back out on the downlink frequency. And if that's the case, the fact that we've got signals on all transponders means that the satellite is already doing all of the work it will normally be doing. The addition of actual content won't change anything.


----------



## n3ntj

Can we assume the issue is software related for what's wrong with D10?


----------



## Shades228

n3ntj said:


> Can we assume the issue is software related for what's wrong with D10?


If it were software related I think it could have been fixed awhile ago without the need to move it. I would say it's most likely a physical failure and all that movement at the end of the D12 testing at 76 was a way to mitigate the hardware failure.

My guess would be defective solar panels not providing enough power, but it's only a guess.


----------



## smiddy

So, I suspect once we get transmission from DirecTV - 12 this thread will be closed for good. It has been one long journey for DirecTV - 12, the longest of all the three "newer" satellites. The importances of which has only been surface scratched. Those guys are DirecTV were very brilliant to have a "ground spare" since it appears they had a clear understanding of the risks. What a thing of beauty! Come on Big-D, fire up some transmissions!


----------



## lwilli201

I see a mass change over most likely. All programming could be duplicated on D12 and a single guide data update would map all HD receivers to D12. When D10 is fixed all they have to do is adjust the guide data to see the appropriate sat for each channel. IMHO.


----------



## Shades228

lwilli201 said:


> I see a mass change over most likely. All programming could be duplicated on D12 and a single guide data update would map all HD receivers to D12. When D10 is fixed all they have to do is adjust the guide data to see the appropriate sat for each channel. IMHO.


I could be wrong but I believe 2 different satellites broadcasting the same frequency range, even if it's the same data, would be bad.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> So, I suspect once we get transmission from DirecTV - 12 this thread will be closed for good. It has been one long journey for DirecTV - 12, the longest of all the three "newer" satellites. The importances of which has only been surface scratched. Those guys are DirecTV were very brilliant to have a "ground spare" since it appears they had a clear understanding of the risks. What a thing of beauty! Come on Big-D, fire up some transmissions!


Why force natural processes ? It will come to the end when it come - no need to push it into a grave.


----------



## P Smith

cebbigh said:


> Great numbers there. Mine are about the same here in the Heartland except for TP 19 which remains around 75. Probably fine with that number anyway.
> 
> Looks like tp 19 is generally stronger in the east and *weaker in the central and west*. Wonder if that will relate to what they map to it.


I don't see it that way - see that numbers ? http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2457679&postcount=9984


----------



## lwilli201

Shades228 said:


> I could be wrong but I believe 2 different satellites broadcasting the same frequency range, even if it's the same data, would be bad.


It is my understanding that D10 and D12 will share different portions of the same frequency range. They will be to close together to use identical frequencies even in their permanent positions.


----------



## P Smith

lwilli201 said:


> It is my understanding that D10 and D12 will share *different portions of the same frequency range*. They will be to close together to use identical frequencies even in their permanent positions.


That means - each transponder (ie particular freq range) must be only one active.


----------



## bearcat250

bearcat250 said:


> 14 hours later and the numbers are almost the same
> 
> 9 - 16 69 76 74 74 40 50 0 0
> 17 - 24 0 0 0 0 28 0 40 33
> 
> Stiil an awful lot of zero's


Still seeing a lot of zero's

9 - 16 78 80 83 80 56 59 46 0
17-24 0 0 0 0 36 0 50 46

Am I the only one seeing theze zero's?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I wouldn't worry too much about zeros. It's probably just testing. We'll see it cycle until they're ready to go live. 

Mike


----------



## bertjo44

No, I have been seeing zeros also but nineties as well.


----------



## SpaceComo

lwilli201 said:


> It is my understanding that D10 and D12 will share different portions of the same frequency range. They will be to close together to use identical frequencies even in their permanent positions.


DTV10 downlinks from 18.324GHz to 18.776GHz center frequencies of 24 transponders
DTV12 downlinks from 19.890GHz to 20.170GHz center frequencies of 16 transponders

There is NO frequency overlap, and therefore all the 24 of DTV10 and all of the 16 of DTV12 can send us programming simultaneously. As a matter of fact all tp's on DTV12 are modulated right now, may be just test patterns, but could very well be HD shows duplicating what is sent on DTV10 in anticipation of the DTV10 maintenance. All they may have to do is reprogram the guide to map the DTV12 transponders to the DirecTV channels we all know so well.

*A question for SIXTO (etal)?* _ How do we even know that we are NOT watching DTV12 unless the 103(cb) signals go to zero or NA on or after the speculated May 19th-ish date?_:eek2:


----------



## bobnielsen

SpaceComo said:


> *A question for SIXTO (etal)?* _ How do we even know that we are NOT watching DTV12 unless the 103(cb) signals go to zero or NA on or after the speculated May 19th-ish date?_:eek2:


If you have BBCs, remove them and you won't get any signals from D10.


----------



## matrixj3

Texas
103 (ca)

93 94 94 95 92 93 93 93
92 90 91 90 93 85 93 87


----------



## Sixto

SpaceComo said:


> DTV10 downlinks from 18.324GHz to 18.776GHz center frequencies of 24 transponders
> DTV12 downlinks from 19.890GHz to 20.170GHz center frequencies of 16 transponders
> 
> There is NO frequency overlap, and therefore all the 24 of DTV10 and all of the 16 of DTV12 can send us programming simultaneously. As a matter of fact all tp's on DTV12 are modulated right now, may be just test patterns, but could very well be HD shows duplicating what is sent on DTV10 in anticipation of the DTV10 maintenance. All they may have to do is reprogram the guide to map the DTV12 transponders to the DirecTV channels we all know so well.
> 
> *A question for SIXTO (etal)?* _ How do we even know that we are NOT watching DTV12 unless the 103(cb) signals go to zero or NA on or after the speculated May 19th-ish date?_:eek2:


Post#1 has the details ... D12 shares with SW1 for national, and shares with D10 for LiL ... the guide data points the receiver to the correct Satellite/Transponder/PID for each channel.


----------



## HelenWeathers

Here in S.E. Florida, all of my D12 TP signal strength readings are from 95-100 and have been for the last two days with the exception of TP19. It runs consistently 15-20 points lower than the others (see picture). TP19 was at around 95 here the first day D12 lit up. This leads me to ask a question.

Are the conus transponders able to be individually aimed?


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Why force natural processes ? It will come to the end when it come - no need to push it into a grave.


I have no control over the process, but just saying it will be coming very quickly and just wanted to get a couple more cents in before it dies. I'd actually love it to stay open and thrive, but alas, I have no control of that either. As for "natural" I think it is unnatural really either way. :lol:


----------



## vroten

Like many most of my 103 (ca) and (cb) signals were in the 60-70 range. I decided to do a little "adjustment" myself. As of 6:30 PM in northwestern NC with cloudy skies here are my #'s

103 (ca)

1-8 96 96 95 95 95 95 95 95
9-16 95 95 82 94 95 95 95 95


103 (cb)

1-8 95 95 91 88 93 91 87 85
9-16 90 89 88 86 91 90

101

1-8 98 99 96 95 97 100 97 100
9-16 97 99 97 92 97 100 96 100
17-24 97 0 96 97 97 100 97 100
25-32 98 51 98 0 100 100 98 100

Three transponders on 110 are at 90 96 and 95

119

22-24 99 82 100
25-32 95 99 100 99 83 100 100 99

Needless to say all the bolts are tight and unless some catastrophe happens I believe I am "set."

:lol:


----------



## Steve

vroten said:


> Like many most of my 103 (ca) and (cb) signals were in the 60-70 range. I decided to do a little "adjustment" myself. As of 6:30 PM in northwestern NC with cloudy skies here are my #'s
> 
> 103 (ca)
> 
> 1-8 96 96 95 95 95 95 95 95
> 9-16 95 95 82 94 95 95 95 95
> 
> 103 (cb)
> 
> 1-8 95 95 91 88 93 91 87 85
> 9-16 90 89 88 86 91 90
> 
> 101
> 
> 1-8 98 99 96 95 97 100 97 100
> 9-16 97 99 97 92 97 100 96 100
> 17-24 97 0 96 97 97 100 97 100
> 25-32 98 51 98 0 100 100 98 100
> 
> Three transponders on 110 are at 90 96 and 95
> 
> 119
> 
> 22-24 99 82 100
> 25-32 95 99 100 99 83 100 100 99
> 
> Needless to say all the bolts are tight and unless some catastrophe happens I believe I am "set."
> 
> :lol:


Pretty impressive numbers for a 5-LNB dish, IMHO. Nice work! :up:


----------



## vb765

Can some one tell me what channels these satellites cover. Thanks
99 C
99 S
103 S
119
101


----------



## cmasia

Check this link and click on "ChNo" for each satellite.

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/america.html


----------



## P Smith

cmasia said:


> Check this link and click on "ChNo" for each satellite.
> 
> http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/america.html


There is latest and more accurate data : http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=177027&highlight=channel+map


----------



## bjdotson

I have an HR23-700

My signals on 103-ca is all in low 30s

I live in Layton Utah


----------



## Sixto

1M.


----------



## jrodfoo

Sixto said:


> 1M.


That....is.....ridiculous......of the good kind! Congrats Sixto and thanks for ALL of the information..


----------



## slimoli

bjdotson said:


> I have an HR23-700
> 
> My signals on 103-ca is all in low 30s
> 
> I live in Layton Utah


What about 103 (cb) ? Are they OK ?


----------



## Sixto

Was going to start a different thread, but will just comment here ...

We are in for some exciting times ahead.

We have a new satellite with *57% additional HD capacity*. Yes, we need to see the actual utilization of the bandwidth, but it's some significant transponder space.

And then when that signal gets down to earth, we have SWiM LNB technology, and the new *SWiM-16* to easily distribute 16 tuners with all that new HD within the home. And the SWiM-16 is cascade-able, cool stuff.

And all that content can be shared throughout the home on any receiver with *MRV*, over a *coax based network*, without any special wiring other then the standard DirecTV coax setup with *DECA*.

And then take a ride with a new *HR24-500*, 100 hours of HD, and it's snappy quick.

Now ... wasn't looking to sound too fan-boyish here, but these are some very sweet times.

Yes, there's always some improvements to be made, and we need to see the new HD roll-out, but in the near future when you have a few peppy HR24s, H24s, on a SWiM-16, doing MRV, over the coax network, and watching your favorite new HD channel, it just may bring a smile to a few faces.

These really are some cool times.


----------



## MikeR7

Sixto - I think you just talked me in to replacing my ethernet networked system. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

MikeR7 said:


> Sixto - I think you just talked me in to replacing my ethernet networked system. :lol:


I just got to the point tonight, while just totally enjoying the HR24 experience, thinking that this stuff is just so fine, and Wednesday will be the start of making it just that much better.


----------



## gregftlaud

HelenWeathers, 

I live in ft lauderdale, my 19 TP is at 95. U just might have seen a temporary fall. If u sit on those signal strengths for long enough u can see them flucuate sometimes b/c i'm assuming they are tweaking them.


----------



## thelucky1

Steve said:


> Pretty impressive numbers for a 5-LNB dish, IMHO. Nice work! :up:


Sixto - Do you get better Tp#s with a 3-lnb?


----------



## HelenWeathers

gregftlaud said:


> HelenWeathers,
> 
> I live in ft lauderdale, my 19 TP is at 95. U just might have seen a temporary fall. If u sit on those signal strengths for long enough u can see them flucuate sometimes b/c i'm assuming they are tweaking them.


Thanks, greg. Mine's been at 80-81 for the last few days each time I've checked. With yours at 95 at least I know it's possible. It could be something with my system. I'll check on my other receivers and see if they are the same/better.


----------



## steff3

Sixto said:


> Was going to start a different thread, but will just comment here ...
> 
> We are in for some exciting times ahead.
> 
> We have a new satellite with *57% additional HD capacity*. Yes, we need to see the actual utilization of the bandwidth, but it's some significant transponder space.
> 
> And then when that signal gets down to earth, we have SWiM LNB technology, and the new *SWiM-16* to easily distribute 16 tuners with all that new HD within the home. And the SWiM-16 is cascade-able, cool stuff.
> 
> And all that content can be shared throughout the home on any receiver with *MRV*, over a *coax based network*, without any special wiring other then the standard DirecTV coax setup with *DECA*.
> 
> And then take a ride with a new *HR24-500*, 100 hours of HD, and it's snappy quick.
> 
> Now ... wasn't looking to sound too fan-boyish here, but these are some very sweet times.
> 
> Yes, there's always some improvements to be made, and we need to see the new HD roll-out, but in the near future when you have a few peppy HR24s, H24s, on a SWiM-16, doing MRV, over the coax network, and watching your favorite new HD channel, it just may bring a smile to a few faces.
> 
> These really are some cool times.


 You know, I was going to have D* connect MRV thru my home netwrok but after this, I thingk I may just let them coneect thru Deca!!

Thanks Sixto for all you have contributed!!!!!!!!!


----------



## cebbigh

P Smith said:


> I don't see it that way - see that numbers ? http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2457679&postcount=9984


I've got old eyes and the image was very small. Is this what you see on 103ca?

82 75 80 78 81 70 87 74
80 65 82 68 88 80 84 82


----------



## brett_the_bomb

I would have to say i agree that thanks are in order for Sixto. fantastic work, and great predictions. its almost like you've done this before or something... strange... anyways i personally really appreciate all the fun this thread has allowed us to have(among all the banter). 

Thanks again Sixto!

Brett


----------



## slimoli

Is the D12 still going to move a bit or is it at the final position ?


----------



## Jeremy W

slimoli said:


> Is the D12 still going to move a bit or is it at the final position ?


It's parked.


----------



## slimoli

103 (ca) all zeros now. 2:47 am EST.


----------



## denco

slimoli said:


> 103 (ca) all zeros now. 2:47 am EST.


103(ca) Tuner 1 & 2 - All zeroes - 2:24 AM Mountain (4:24 AM Eastern)


----------



## Rob

6:45 Eastern. All my number are the usual 70's for me in San Diego for 103 (ca)

75 76 79 79 72 73 76 77 
71 73 78 75 74 73 79 72


----------



## Stewpidity

For the first time I have all 90's on 103ca


----------



## loudo

All 90's this morning, in Central Maine.


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> Is the D12 still going to move a bit or is it at the final position ?





Jeremy W said:


> It's parked.





Code:


Name			DirecTV-12
NORAD #			36131
Epoch (UTC)		05-17-2010 02:44:10
Orbit # at Epoch	147
Inclination		0.123
RA of A. Node		65.910
Eccentricity		0.0000116
Argument of Perigee	145.721
Revs per day		1.00272934
Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	182 / 0 day(s)

Lon			102.7558° W
Lat			0.0991° N
Alt (km)		35 785.370


----------



## HelenWeathers

103(ca) all upper 90s this AM in Miami, Florida.


----------



## drhart416

What does 103 ca and cb mean? Is this conus a and b?


----------



## LameLefty

drhart416 said:


> What does 103 ca and cb mean? Is this conus a and b?


A-band (Ka-hi) and B-band (Ka-Lo). D10 is Ka-lo - 103(cb). D12 is Ka-hi - 103(ca).


----------



## Sixto

drhart416 said:


> What does 103 ca and cb mean? Is this conus a and b?


c = Conus

a = Ka a-Band = D12 = Ka Hi = 19700-20200 MHz

b = Ka b-Band = D10 = Ka Lo = 18300-18800 MHz


----------



## drhart416

Thank you LL and Sixto.


----------



## Avder

Just checked, my lowest transponder is now 86, which is an improvement from the mid 70 I had as my low last night.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Most solid signal levels to date with D12.

Even transponder 19 is solid.

WOO HOO!


----------



## HDYankee

All my transponders 95 or higher on 103(ca)


----------



## bjdotson

slimoli said:


> What about 103 (cb) ? Are they OK ?


Not really. Numbers in high 30s and low 40s

to recap: 103 (ca) is low to mid 30s

Am I going to have to call for a "tweak"


----------



## Hdhead

bjdotson said:


> Not really. Numbers in high 30s and low 40s
> 
> to recap: 103 (ca) is low to mid 30s
> 
> Am I going to have to call for a "tweak"


You betcha.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bjdotson said:


> Not really. Numbers in high 30s and low 40s
> 
> to recap: 103 (ca) is low to mid 30s
> 
> Am I going to have to call for a "tweak"


Those kinds of readings on either 103 (ca) or (cb) are way too low. You certainly are a dish alignment candidate - if you call customer service, and have the DirecTV protection plan, they will do this at no charge.

Installers will tell you that you should be 90 or higher on average with the 103 sat signal levels, to assure solid reception of the HD content coming from that area.


----------



## P Smith

Where is Boeing official statement ?


----------



## cforrest

P Smith said:


> Where is Boeing official statement ?


http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1208

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., May 17, 2010 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced that it has completed the on-orbit handover of the DIRECTV 12 satellite. DIRECTV will use the Boeing 702HP satellite to provide high-definition television (HDTV) broadcasting to local and national markets throughout the United States.

"Boeing is proud to continue its delivery of highly capable satellites that enable DIRECTV to expand its channel offering," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "This marks the 10th satellite provided to DIRECTV by Boeing."

DIRECTV 12 launched into orbit on Dec. 28 from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan aboard an International Launch Services Proton M rocket. Now that Boeing has completed the orbital maneuvers and checkout procedures necessary for the handover, the satellite will be monitored and controlled for DIRECTV by Intelsat.

Boeing manufactured DIRECTV 12 at its satellite integration and test complex in El Segundo. The satellite's powerful payload integrates 90 active and 24 spare Ka-band transponders. Its antenna receives and transmits digital programming throughout the United States with two Ka-band reflectors that each measure 2.8 meters in diameter, and nine smaller Ka-band reflectors.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $34 billion business with 68,000 employees worldwide.


----------



## P Smith

Thanks. It is *OFFICIALLY *transferred to DTV today.


----------



## ATARI

cforrest said:


> http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1208


So, we did it -- D12 is parked and operational, this thread has reached 10,000+ posts and 1,000,000+ views.

Nothing to do now except sit back and enjoy all the new HD this year.

D12s journey and this thread has been a fun ride.

Thanks to all those that have contributed.


----------



## cebbigh

103ca tp19 at 91 this morning on my hr20-100. It's all good.


----------



## P Smith

We're not finished yet ! Now we see only modulated signal's level, but there are no stream/muxes.

After first real channel will come up the thread could rest in peace, but now we have plenty to do - watch how D12 really coming to us. CHANNELS !


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1208
> 
> EL SEGUNDO, Calif., May 17, 2010 -- Boeing [NYSE: BA] today announced that it has completed the on-orbit handover of the DIRECTV 12 satellite. DIRECTV will use the Boeing 702HP satellite to provide high-definition television (HDTV) broadcasting to local and national markets throughout the United States.
> 
> "Boeing is proud to continue its delivery of highly capable satellites that enable DIRECTV to expand its channel offering," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "This marks the 10th satellite provided to DIRECTV by Boeing."
> 
> DIRECTV 12 launched into orbit on Dec. 28 from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan aboard an International Launch Services Proton M rocket. Now that Boeing has completed the orbital maneuvers and checkout procedures necessary for the handover, the satellite will be monitored and controlled for DIRECTV by Intelsat.
> 
> Boeing manufactured DIRECTV 12 at its satellite integration and test complex in El Segundo. The satellite's powerful payload integrates 90 active and 24 spare Ka-band transponders. Its antenna receives and transmits digital programming throughout the United States with two Ka-band reflectors that each measure 2.8 meters in diameter, and nine smaller Ka-band reflectors.
> 
> A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is one of the world's largest defense, space and security businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Defense, Space & Security is a $34 billion business with 68,000 employees worldwide.


All good.


----------



## slimoli

My readings on the 103 (ca) are quite different from several reports here:

-With the exception of all zeros this morning, the numbers never changed since day 1. Few transponders high 80s , most 70s and 2 below 60. It looks like there was an improvement for most people here but not for me.

- My 103 (cb) has always been high 90s. All other satellites always high 90s. If I get great numbers on 103 (cb), shouldn't I get the same with 103 (ca) ? 

I live in a MDU MFH2 building and any change on the dish must be requested by the board. Since I am probably the only resident who cares about it, I wonder if I should wait a bit more or ask the management to call the MDU company.


----------



## denco

5 points average increase in readings on 103(ca) since yesterday (05/16/2010). Nice!


----------



## mike_augie

got got the email letter about adding a Hugh bunch of lil in the coming months already deleted it from my phone but like 15-20 hd lil coming soon and gave names of cities


----------



## Sixto

mike_augie said:


> got got the email letter about adding a Hugh bunch of lil in the coming months already deleted it from my phone but like 15-20 hd lil coming soon and gave names of cities


Yep: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2459306#post2459306


----------



## Tom Robertson

bjdotson said:


> Not really. Numbers in high 30s and low 40s
> 
> to recap: 103 (ca) is low to mid 30s
> 
> Am I going to have to call for a "tweak"


I just checked mine and a friend's in Roy. All in the 80's with a couple of low 90's. Yes, you'll need a tweak.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## georule

slimoli said:


> My readings on the 103 (ca) are quite different from several reports here:
> 
> -With the exception of all zeros this morning, the numbers never changed since day 1. Few transponders high 80s , most 70s and 2 below 60. It looks like there was an improvement for most people here but not for me.
> 
> - My 103 (cb) has always been high 90s. All other satellites always high 90s. If I get great numbers on 103 (cb), shouldn't I get the same with 103 (ca) ?
> 
> I live in a MDU MFH2 building and any change on the dish must be requested by the board. Since I am probably the only resident who cares about it, I wonder if I should wait a bit more or ask the management to call the MDU company.


That does seem odd. I wonder how old that dish gear is, and if that has an impact. Multi-residential unit dishes probably get upraded/tweaked much more slowly than single-family residential units, on average.


----------



## Tom Robertson

slimoli said:


> My readings on the 103 (ca) are quite different from several reports here:
> 
> -With the exception of all zeros this morning, the numbers never changed since day 1. Few transponders high 80s , most 70s and 2 below 60. It looks like there was an improvement for most people here but not for me.
> 
> - My 103 (cb) has always been high 90s. All other satellites always high 90s. If I get great numbers on 103 (cb), shouldn't I get the same with 103 (ca) ?
> 
> I live in a MDU MFH2 building and any change on the dish must be requested by the board. Since I am probably the only resident who cares about it, I wonder if I should wait a bit more or ask the management to call the MDU company.


The other thing I can think is the dish is pointed to the outside of 103°(cb) away from 103°(ca) by just enough to have one very nice and one low. If the dish were pointed between the two, both would then be very nice. (And likely not affect the others much.

I'd suggest a call to the board to have them empower you or for them to call for a tweak.

Good luck,
Tom


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> Yep: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2459306#post2459306


Well that's no good, the largest DMA (Lansing, MI) that is currently not served with HD LiL remains unannounced through at least the end of the year?!?!

Stuck in the 3%...


----------



## georule

Whatever the issue with TP19 was, it seems to be addressed. I've got two straight lines of 95s and 96s on 103ca today. Very pretty to see, actually.


----------



## doctor j

jefbal99 said:


> Well that's no good, the largest DMA (Lansing, MI) that is currently not served with HD LiL remains unannounced through at least the end of the year?!?!
> 
> Stuck in the 3%...


It does seem peculiar that Directv is adding New Markets to include SD (all in MPEG4 i might add) and letting about 17SD only markets active right now languish for years without upgrade to HD.

Doctor j


----------



## dolt

Arrrggghhh. Eugene area also passed up (DMA #119). Very frustrating. 

Still in the 3% as well


----------



## cebbigh

I'm not going to despair that Fargo is missing. I'm thinking a bunch more will pop up after the D10 repair is successfully completed.


----------



## doctor j

dolt said:


> Arrrggghhh. Eugene area also passed up (DMA #119). Very frustrating.
> 
> Still in the 3% as well


Technically the 3% they are referring to are the 38 DMA's that will not have ANY Directv LIL coverage. #1 on that list is DMA#138 Monroe, LA.

94 or 95% of the country will have HD LIL.

You are in the "tweener" 2 or 3 % with SD and no HD.

15 of the 17 "tweener" DMA's get SD LIL's on 119.
That can't be a coincidence but can't explaine the "future plans". ?BSS??

Doctor j


----------



## bubbacummins

Here are the TP readings that I got last night, am in Houston, TX Slimline 3 LNB


----------



## P Smith

bubbacummins said:


> Here are the TP readings that I got last night, am in Houston, TX Slimline 3 LNB


You got a problem ! tp24 is so low .


----------



## Dave DFW

bubbacummins said:


> Here are the TP readings that I got last night, am in Houston, TX Slimline 3 LNB


I'm in the Dallas area and I've be getting in the 40-60 range. I've also had problems with a few channels that die around lunch time and come back in the evening. I have an MRV upgrage scheduled for tomorrow and the csr swore that I will get a new dish and not just a SWM-8. Hope this fixes my problem or they will be back for a tweak. Just trying to save D* a truck roll, but hope the csr is correct and this fixes everything in one go. He seemed more switched on that a lot of reps.

Thanks to Sixto and please get some rest (so you are refreshed for the D14 thread).


----------



## bjdotson

Tom Robertson said:


> I just checked mine and a friend's in Roy. All in the 80's with a couple of low 90's. Yes, you'll need a tweak.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks.

I called to see if I could get them to just send the truck (I am on the protection plan), but they wanted to do some troubleshooting with cabling etc. I was at work so I have to call back when I get home.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bjdotson said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I called to see if I could get them to just send the truck (I am on the protection plan), but they wanted to do some troubleshooting with cabling etc. I was at work so I have to call back when I get home.


Indeed...if you have the protection plan....dish alignment is included for free. Its not unusual that they'll check your cables as well on the same visit.


----------



## apexmi

Appear to be decent signals here - On the Big ol' sidecar dish...

All90-95 on ca &* 87-93 on cb


----------



## texasbrit

Dave DFW said:


> I'm in the Dallas area and I've be getting in the 40-60 range. I've also had problems with a few channels that die around lunch time and come back in the evening. I have an MRV upgrage scheduled for tomorrow and the csr swore that I will get a new dish and not just a SWM-8. Hope this fixes my problem or they will be back for a tweak. Just trying to save D* a truck roll, but hope the csr is correct and this fixes everything in one go. He seemed more switched on that a lot of reps.
> 
> Thanks to Sixto and please get some rest (so you are refreshed for the D14 thread).


Dave - if you still have problems after your tech visit PM me....


----------



## rayjoe2

103CA mid 80s - low 90s in Chesapeake VA in the rain


----------



## crazy4dss

This is mine as of today S. Florida

09-16 95 96 92 95 91 95 90 95
17-24 90 95 95 95 92 95 95 96


----------



## kevinturcotte

Peaked my dish earlier this morning. Went from mid 80's on 99 and 103 to low to mid 90's.


----------



## Indiana627

kevinturcotte said:


> Peaked my dish earlier this morning. Went from mid 80's on 99 and 103 to low to mid 90's.


How exactly did you peak your dish? I too am getting high 70s - low 80s on 99 and 103 and really want better. I'm just a little unsure of how to proceed.


----------



## rugerboy58

I have all zeros too. I am in western PA in Johnstown. Have a tech coming on the 26th for a free local upgrade. Will have to have him tweak the dish.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Great job Boeing and DIRECTV! :goodjob:


----------



## Herdfan

I wonder if Wednesday will be a Festivus? 

I mean its all dressed up, let it out to play.


----------



## loveshockey

Herdfan said:


> I wonder if Wednesday will be a Festivus?
> 
> I mean its all dressed up, let it out to play.


been under a rock?


----------



## P Smith

loveshockey said:


> been under a rock?


Perhaps "Below the Mason".


----------



## cavinny

In southern CA, my readings are low on all of the odd transponders. Would this be a tilt issue in alignment?

Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca)) 
1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
9 - 16 70 33 71 32 67 30 68 31
17 - 24 64 25 56 23 60 24 58 26
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Murrieta CA 

I am not having issues right now with any of the SD of HD. I am wondering if I mess with the tilt would align this up. I have tick marks on the dish of where it is now.

Below are the rest of my readings.

Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb)) 
1 - 8 75 55 67 44 75 57 63 43
9 - 16 76 58 68 44 78 57 N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A


Satellite Transponders (28 total at 101) 
1 - 8 93 94 94 0 95 97 94 96
9 - 16 93 95 93 0 95 97 92 97
17 - 24 87 100 89 0 95 96 93 96
25 - 32 95 0 90 100 91 96 92 94
Satellite Transponders (3 total at 110) 
1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 87
9 - 16 N/A 88 N/A 87 N/A N/A N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A nn N/A N/A N/A
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
Satellite Transponder (13 total at 119) 
1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 87 0 0
25 - 32 96 88 95 90 0 93 55 94

Satellite Transponder (14 total at 99c ) 
1 - 8 69 54 70 53 68 53 68 49
9 - 16 68 55 66 48 70 56 N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A

Satellite Transponder (1 total at 99s) 
1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A 89 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A

Satellite Transponder (3 total at 103s) 
1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
17 - 24 N/A N/A 100 N/A 100 0 N/A N/A
25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A


----------



## P Smith

cavinny said:


> In southern CA, my readings are low on all of the odd transponders. Would this be a tilt issue in alignment?
> 
> Satellite Transponders (16 total at 103°(ca))
> 1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 9 - 16 70 33 71 32 67 30 68 31
> 17 - 24 64 25 56 23 60 24 58 26
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> Murrieta CA
> 
> I am not having issues right now with any of the SD of HD. I am wondering if I mess with the tilt would align this up. I have tick marks on the dish of where it is now.
> 
> Below are the rest of my readings.
> 
> Satellite Transponders (14 total at 103°(cb))
> 1 - 8 75 55 67 44 75 57 63 43
> 9 - 16 76 58 68 44 78 57 N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 
> Satellite Transponders (28 total at 101)
> 1 - 8 93 94 94 0 95 97 94 96
> 9 - 16 93 95 93 0 95 97 92 97
> 17 - 24 87 100 89 0 95 96 93 96
> 25 - 32 95 0 90 100 91 96 92 94
> Satellite Transponders (3 total at 110)
> 1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 87
> 9 - 16 N/A 88 N/A 87 N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A nn N/A N/A N/A
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> Satellite Transponder (13 total at 119)
> 1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A 87 0 0
> 25 - 32 96 88 95 90 0 93 55 94
> 
> Satellite Transponder (14 total at 99c )
> 1 - 8 69 54 70 53 68 53 68 49
> 9 - 16 68 55 66 48 70 56 N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 
> Satellite Transponder (1 total at 99s)
> 1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A 89 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 
> Satellite Transponder (3 total at 103s)
> 1 - 8 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 9 - 16 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A
> 17 - 24 N/A N/A 100 N/A 100 0 N/A N/A
> 25 - 32 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A


Very unusual. You'll need professional troubleshooting !
Tilt should be taken from your setup screen, and yes - check it on the dish if you did some 'alignments'.


----------



## beakor

cavinny said:


> In southern CA, my readings are low on all of the odd transponders. Would this be a tilt issue in alignment?
> 
> Make sure your dish is level. Take the multiswitch out of the signal path if you have one and check your readings.


----------



## hilmar2k

I think I am glad they didn't try to peak my dish when they installed DECA Friday/today. I am 95-97 on all transponders.


----------



## jdspencer

We have some rain heading our way, so I just checked my 103(ca) strengths.
On tuner 1 they are
97 96 96 95 96 95 95 95
95 95 97 95 95 95 97 96
Tuner 2 has
97 97 96 96 96 95 95 95
95 95 97 95 95 95 97 96

Of course, this would only matter if there was some actual programming on 103(ca). 

101 ranges from 95 to 100 except for the spot beams.


----------



## dbstv

well my new satbuddy 29 came useful today all my 103 ca went from high 80's to all 90's now


----------



## lmsyl

DTV is testing D10 channels on D12 now. Almost ready for migration.


----------



## P Smith

lmsyl said:


> DTV is testing D10 channels on D12 now. Almost ready for migration.


How ? Any details to verify ? Or it's just a WAG ?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

lmsyl said:


> DTV is testing D10 channels on D12 now. Almost ready for migration.


Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Where did you hear this?

Got a link?

Mike


----------



## Standtall29

well im like 200 miles from the south east coast on my boat in the Bahamas all sets are 90s but 103 a is only showing 4 tranponders and they are like 24--30--45--35. What do you think is the problem.


----------



## jdspencer

You need an alignment. And keep the boat steady.


----------



## Rob

jdspencer said:


> You need an alignment. And keep the boat steady.


And don't rock the boat. The boats a rockin' don't come a knockin'.


----------



## Sixto

If going "live" Wednesday, just might be doing some testing.


----------



## wmb

MicroBeta said:


> Where did you hear this?
> 
> Got a link?
> 
> Mike


He can't tell he's on double secret probation here and doesn;t want his sources on double secret probation elsewhere:lol:

Anyhow, hopefully 36 hours...


----------



## Standtall29

Sixto will there be a problem with people with boats say out in the bahamas the keys cayman Islands etc. Is this new D12 Sat spot beam for the mainland? If so why have it on my boat?


----------



## MadMac

On a somewhat overcast day, an improvement on the notorious 19 from a couple of days back:


----------



## lmsyl

MicroBeta said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s
> 
> Where did you hear this?
> 
> Got a link?
> 
> Mike


on ch. 9600-9800.


----------



## bubbacummins

P Smith said:


> You got a problem ! tp24 is so low .


Today everything was much better till the rain came, freaking killed everything again, sat 101 usually reads from 95-100 on the TP's, went to mid 60's and 99 and 103's went to mid 40's till the power flickered and the receiver lost sync, kinda new to owning sat tv but should it be that prone to rain / storm fade


----------



## Sixto

lmsyl said:


> on ch. 9600-9800.


Yep, as we've mentioned ...


Code:


9690 *MSG+HD 1010
9691 *DTV    1020
9692 *SHO2HD 1030
9693 *HBOwHD 1040
9694 *HISTHD 1050
9695 *A&EHD  1010
9696 *FSWHD  1020
9697 *STZKHD 1030
9698 *DTV    1040
9699 *CNNHD  1050
9723 *BIOHD  1010
9724 *CBSCHD 1020
9725 *FSDHD  1030
9726 *BRVOHD 1040
9727 *T101HD 1050
9728 *BTNHD  1010
9729 *TLCHD  1020
9730 *NESNHD 1030
9731 *MTVHD  1040
9732 *NIKeHD 1050
9733 *MGMHD  1010
9735 *PLDAHD 1030
9736 *NFLHD  1040
9737 *MAXeHD 1050
9738 *SMTHHD 1010
9739 *FBNHD  1020
9740 *FUELHD 1030
9741 *SPDHD  1040
9742 *CNeHD  1050
9743 *SyfyHD 1010
9744 *NBAHD  1020
9745 *FSPTHD 1030
9746 *FSSWHD 1040
9747 *SEDGHD 1050
9748 *TWCHD  1010
9749 *NGCHD  1020
9750 *FOODHD 1030
9751 *SCIHD  1040
9752 *TEST   1050
9753 *STZwHD 1010
9754 *NHLHD  1020
9755 *STZCHD 1030
9756 *TEST   1040
9757 *FSRMHD 1050
9758 *YESHD  1010
9759 *ESNHD  1020
9760 *SNYHD  1030
9761 *FXHD   1040
9762 *TMCeHD 1050
9768 *TEST   1010
9769 *TEST   1020
9770 *TEST   1030
9771 *TEST   1040
9772 *TEST   1050
9773 *DSCHD  1010
9774 *CSNCHD 1020
9775 *TEST   1030
9776 *SHOwHD 1040
9777 *TBSHD  1050
9778 *CSNHD  1010
9779 *DISeHD 1020
9780 *VSHD   1030
9781 *HGTVHD 1040
9782 *CMTHD  1050
9783 *APLHD  1010
9785 *STZeHD 1020
9786 *TEST   1030
9787 *VH1HD  1040
9788 *MAXwHD 1050
9789 *USAHD  1010
9790 *TEST   1020
9791 *TEST   1030
9792 *CNBCHD 1040
9793 *TEST   1050


----------



## Sixto

Standtall29 said:


> Sixto will there be a problem with people with boats say out in the bahamas the keys cayman Islands etc. Is this new D12 Sat spot beam for the mainland? If so why have it on my boat?


Here's some maps: http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2435

National at bottom.


----------



## slimoli

How can you see ch 9600-9800 ?


----------



## dolt

These have increased by about 6 or 8 on average since the signal first came on:

09-16 86 85 84 83 84 85 80 82
17-24 81 85 83 82 81 83 85 82

It appears that d12 has some sort of east coast bias, as most folks on the west coast seem to have the worst of it (generally speaking).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

slimoli said:


> How can you see ch 9600-9800 ?


You can't unless you have a special access card.


----------



## DodgerKing

slimoli said:


> How can you see ch 9600-9800 ?


We can't


----------



## freerein100

SL5 Signal Strength after tweaking


Satellite transponders (32 total at 101º)
1-8 92 96 91 67 87 99 85 99
9-16 88 98 96 0 97 100 95 100
17-24 96 0 97 0 97 100 97 100
25-32 98 0 97 95 99 100 97 100


Satellite transponders (3 total at 110º)
1-8 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA 95
9-16 NA 96 NA 95 NA NA NA NA


Satellite transponders (11 total at 119º)
17-24 NA NA NA NA NA 97 96 99
25-32 89 98 99 97 100 100 74 100


Satellite transponders (14 total at 99º(c or a))
1-8 95 97 95 96 95 96 95 95
9-16 95 96 95 95 96 96 NA NA


Satellite transponders (6 total at 99º(s or b))
1-8 92 85 85 44 89 25 NA NA
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA 0 95
17-24 42 0 0 95 0 0 0 0


Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(s or b))
1-8 0 0 0 0 0 0 NA NA
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA 13 86
17-24 0 0 0 92 60 0 13 16


Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(cb or a))
1-8 95 97 94 95 95 96 94 95
9-16 95 96 95 95 95 96 NA NA
17-24 NA NA NA NA NA


Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(ca)
1-8 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA
9-16 95 97 95 97 95 96 92 96
17-24 94 96 95 96 95 96 95 97
25-32 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA

All my signals improved drastically after adjusting

DirecTV-12 Satellite Signal Strength - 103 (ca)

TP09 TP10 TP11 TP12 TP13 TP14 TP15 TP16
86 0 86 62 86 62 83 62

TP17 TP18 TP19 TP20 TP21 TP22 TP23 TP24
86 63 83 65 86 66 89 68

Before tweaking on 103 ca


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Standtall29 said:


> Sixto will there be a problem with people with boats say out in the bahamas the keys cayman Islands etc. Is this new D12 Sat spot beam for the mainland? If so why have it on my boat?


That is the boat that is rebroadcasting Major League Baseball with implied oral consent, not express written consent.


----------



## smiddy

slimoli said:


> How can you see ch 9600-9800 ?





Earl Bonovich said:


> You can't unless you have a special access card.


Oh, and don't forget the tin-foil hat (not aluminium, tin). :lol:

Seriously, it is getting closer and closer and we will be viewing what has most folks on the edge of their collective seats about, more HD, hopefully Wednesday!


----------



## Paul A

nah-MEE-nol


----------



## DanER40

Which channels will be on 103 (ca)? With my signal levels in the 30's I would like to know what I will be missing until I can get on my roof and tweak my dish.


----------



## georule

DanER40 said:


> Which channels will be on 103 (ca)? With my signal levels in the 30's I would like to know what I will be missing until I can get on my roof and tweak my dish.


Everything currently on 103cb plus the five new channels.


----------



## clevfandad

Yep, +1 on the East Coast bias. Haven't seen any numbers of 90 and above from CA posters. Wonder how the readings are down at El Segundo.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

One day to the first new content, and the strongest signal levels to date.

Nice work D12!


----------



## hjones4841

Will the new channels actually have HD content? The reason that I ask is that when we got new ones before, most of the programming was pillar boxed SD. It would be really sad if this is the case for the new D12 channels, what with all the anticipation.


----------



## Rob

hjones4841 said:


> Will the new channels actually have HD content? The reason that I ask is that when we got new ones before, most of the programming was pillar boxed SD. It would be really sad if this is the case for the new D12 channels, what with all the anticipation.


Well we know MSNBC is studio shows, they converted to HD last year and their shows are HD much like CNBCHD.


----------



## smiddy

hjones4841 said:


> Will the new channels actually have HD content? The reason that I ask is that when we got new ones before, most of the programming was pillar boxed SD. It would be really sad if this is the case for the new D12 channels, what with all the anticipation.


You realize that it has been quite a while since a HD channel has been added and that the content of the channel is the responsibility of the channel, not DirecTV, right? Most anything added today will mostly have HD content, there will be some throwbacks, but in general the list of channels I saw and the channels I would watch are already showing HD content.


----------



## Hdhead

Rob said:


> Well we know MSNBC is studio shows, they converted to HD last year and their shows are HD much like CNBCHD.


Hopefully not like CNBC which is all 480i picture with HD quality graphics inserted.


----------



## hjones4841

smiddy said:


> You realize... that the content of the channel is the responsibility of the channel, not DirecTV, right?


Of course, but I remember my previous disappointment when I tuned to a newly launched HD channel only to see pillar-boxed SD. You are correct, tho, the industry is much further down the road on HD conversion now, so hopefully most new and recently produced programming will be true HD.


----------



## ejjames

Whatever they do tomorrow...I sure hope they don't add "The Travel Channel HD"! Gee whiz, I mean it's not like people are beating down the door asking for it.

If you want my opinion, and I can't imaging ANY scenario where the whole world doesn't...if you want to see beautiful landscapes of world destinations in crystal cleat quality..then TRAVEL there!

As for me, I'm in bed, credit card in hand and waiting for Home Shopping HD!..I mean the world is watching DirecTv...let's do this right! 

Sorry if it's OT Sixto, but some things cannot be silenced...and of course I'm kidding.


----------



## James Long

hjones4841 said:


> Will the new channels actually have HD content?


Yes. Unlike before most of the channels listed are mature HD channels that have had a chance to do more than install an upconverter and claim to be HD.



smiddy said:


> You realize that it has been quite a while since a HD channel has been added and that the content of the channel is the responsibility of the channel, not DirecTV, right?


It is DirecTV's responsibility to choose the best HD channels available ... especially with their advertising that claims they have the HD content people want. Given the choice between a 24/7 HD channel and a prime time only HD channel one would hope they would choose the one with the most HD (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).


----------



## SPACEMAKER

ejjames said:


> Whatever they do tomorrow...I sure hope they don't add "The Travel Channel HD"! Gee whiz, I mean it's not like people are beating down the door asking for it.
> 
> If you want my opinion, and I can't imaging ANY scenario where the whole world doesn't...if you want to see beautiful landscapes of world destinations in crystal cleat quality..then TRAVEL there!
> 
> As for me, I'm in bed, credit card in hand and waiting for Home Shopping HD!..I mean the world is watching DirecTv...let's do this right!
> 
> Sorry if it's OT Sixto, but some things cannot be silenced...and of course I'm kidding.


:lol: You had me there for a minute!


----------



## oldfantom

James Long said:


> It is DirecTV's responsibility to choose the best HD channels available ... especially with their advertising that claims they have the HD content people want. Given the choice between a 24/7 HD channel and a prime time only HD channel one would hope they would choose the one with the most HD (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).


I don't know. I think the market drives choice more than content. Say C-SPAN was 100% HD. Do you believe D* should choose it over their number one rated SD channel? Even if that channel is 20% HD. Now maybe if the choice is between the number one and two rated channels...

Of course none of this takes into account any deals like a channel provider saying "we will give you <channel> for x dollars if you carry this sister channel. Or x plus 20% otherwise." I would think there has to be a lot of, for lack of better terms, pork barrel carriage deals. How many unique content providers are out there? I know NBC/Universal and Disney/ABC are pretty big.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

hdtvfan0001 said:


> One day to the first new content, and the strongest signal levels to date.
> 
> Nice work D12!


Please stop by and adjust my dish. :grin:

I'm in mid 70s to low 80s. What is the lowest signal strength we can have (without picture issues)? I know the signal is digital and there's no difference in picture quality from signal strength 100 and signal strength 75. I'm just curious what is the lowest we can go and still have a solid picture? I live in So Cal, not too many issues with rain fade. Other than the fact that it's raining right now. :lol: My luck, once TravHD goes live tomorrow, So Cal will be hit with a monsoon. :lol:


----------



## JeffBowser

Reminding me of the old argument from the D10 launch days, between those that watched for content, and those that, apparently, watched pixel depth and aspect ratio, with no concern for content. :lol:



oldfantom said:


> I don't know. I think the market drives choice more than content. Say C-SPAN was 100% HD. Do you believe D* should choose it over their number one rated SD channel? Even if that channel is 20% HD. Now maybe if the choice is between the number one and two rated channels...
> 
> Of course none of this takes into account any deals like a channel provider saying "we will give you <channel> for x dollars if you carry this sister channel. Or x plus 20% otherwise." I would think there has to be a lot of, for lack of better terms, pork barrel carriage deals. How many unique content providers are out there? I know NBC/Universal and Disney/ABC are pretty big.


----------



## HarleyD

James Long said:


> It is DirecTV's responsibility to choose the best HD channels available ... especially with their advertising that claims they have the HD content people want. Given the choice between a 24/7 HD channel and a prime time only HD channel one would hope they would choose the one with the most HD (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).


I would disagree with this statement as an absolute rule. It's a nice goal to shoot for...on paper. In reality it won't always or even usually work out that way. It all hinges on the carriage agreements.

While it is DirecTV's responsibility to provide HD content that subscribers want, if they are able to negotiate a carriage agreement with the channel that has only 20% HD content before they negotiate a carriage agreement with the one that has 100% HD content then you go ahead and light up the 20% content channel. Bandwidth is not an issue so it is not an either/or scenario. You add the channels you can when you can.

Now how they prioritize the carriage negotiations internally could affect it but you don't hold up a channel that is ready to launch until a channel that is not ready to launch gets an agreement in place.


----------



## Piratefan98

A rainy/dreary day here in Southern PA, but getting great signal from 103ca. All readings between 90-96. Even that pesky TP 19 is looking good now, coming in at 94.

Looking forward to tomorrow!


----------



## Rob

Maybe they can split an HD channel like they did in the old days when cable didn't have room for every channel. Put TravelHD on for most of the day and then switch to AMCHD when they are in primetime showing "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad" etc? Not likely however.


----------



## James Long

Don't miss this ...


James Long said:


> (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).


I understand that 20%s can be more popular and more valuable than 100%s and already stated that.



HarleyD said:


> While it is DirecTV's responsibility to provide HD content that subscribers want, if they are able to negotiate a carriage agreement with the channel that has only 20% HD content before they negotiate a carriage agreement with the one that has 100% HD content then you go ahead and light up the 20% content channel. Bandwidth is not an issue so it is not an either/or scenario. You add the channels you can when you can.


Bandwidth is always an issue. D12 is only replacing D10 for now and when D10 is repaired available bandwidth will increase but even ~57% more capacity (215 total channels?) is a limit. How much will 3D cut into that capacity?

It is better now because most channels have a considerable amount of HD but there is plenty of history where several "HD" channels were added that were limited hours and people wondered why DirecTV bothered. Lighting up 20% channels where it precludes a more desired 100% channel later is a mistake.

After the "May" additions DirecTV will have room for about 50 more feeds which sounds like a lot until one looks at what is left to add. It is easy to come up with a couple of dozen more HD channels than being added in May and then you're talking about using up half the remaining capacity to add those.

It gets easier as the number of carried channels increases and the number of remaining channels drops but available bandwidth is always an issue lurking somewhere in the background.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HarleyD said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is DirecTV's responsibility to choose the best HD channels available ... especially with their advertising that claims they have the HD content people want. Given the choice between a 24/7 HD channel and a prime time only HD channel one would hope they would choose the one with the most HD (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).
> 
> 
> 
> I would disagree with this statement as an absolute rule. It's a nice goal to shoot for...on paper. In reality it won't always or even usually work out that way. It all hinges on the carriage agreements.
> 
> While it is DirecTV's responsibility to provide HD content that subscribers want, if they are able to negotiate a carriage agreement with the channel that has only 20% HD content before they negotiate a carriage agreement with the one that has 100% HD content then you go ahead and light up the 20% content channel. Bandwidth is not an issue so it is not an either/or scenario. You add the channels you can when you can.
> 
> Now how they prioritize the carriage negotiations internally could affect it but you don't hold up a channel that is ready to launch until a channel that is not ready to launch gets an agreement in place.
Click to expand...

What you two (and others) have really hit upon are parts of the very complex considerations that go into selecting which channels to launch in HD.

Other parts included:
What's available today?
Who is "promising" to have more HD content "just as soon as you launch us..." (unfortunately DIRECTV can't respond with "the check is in the mail..."
What is the market segment we're after?
As well as who is really technically ready to send us an HD signal.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ejjames

Hutchinshouse said:


> Please stop by and adjust my dish. :grin:
> 
> I'm in mid 70s to low 80s. What is the lowest signal strength we can have (without picture issues)? I know the signal is digital and there's no difference in picture quality from signal strength 100 and signal strength 75. I'm just curious what is the lowest we can go and still have a solid picture? I live in So Cal, not too many issues with rain fade. Other than the fact that it's raining right now. :lol: My luck, once TravHD goes live tomorrow, So Cal will be hit with a monsoon. :lol:


Don't sweat it. Your levels are fine. I am in MN and get 80's and 90's at 101, and 70's and low 80's at 99 and 103 degrees. I know my dish could be tweaked a little, but I loose signal only during the hardest rain storms. I'
ve noticed it maybe 3 times in the past year, and then only for a few minutes.

So sit back and enjy your travel HD!


----------



## keithmerr

my tp readings are in the upper 70s and lower 80s on 103 ca and cb but all the other sats tps are in lower to upper 90s.. does that mean the tilt needs adjusting?


----------



## Jon J

What needs to be tweaked if my 101 numbers are all in the high 90s but 103 a/b numbers are all mid 80s to low 90s?


----------



## sigma1914

Jon J said:


> What needs to be tweaked if my 101 numbers are all in the high 90s but 103 a/b numbers are all mid 80s to low 90s?


Nothing. Those numbers are fine.


----------



## Rob

Jon J said:


> What needs to be tweaked if my 101 numbers are all in the high 90s but 103 a/b numbers are all mid 80s to low 90s?


I wish I had those numbers. But that's the price too pay for living in San Diego.


----------



## georule

Tom Robertson said:


> What you two (and others) have really hit upon are parts of the very complex considerations that go into selecting which channels to launch in HD.
> 
> Other parts included:
> What's available today?
> Who is "promising" to have more HD content "just as soon as you launch us..." (unfortunately DIRECTV can't respond with "the check is in the mail..."
> What is the market segment we're after?
> As well as who is really technically ready to send us an HD signal.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Increasingly "relationship maintenance" gets into the calculation as well. As content providers aggregate, a cable/sat company can find themselves being faced with the need to give space to a channel that they aren't as excited about as another channel, but will do it anyway because of the need to maintain the relationship (and perhaps receive preferential pricing) with the provider who has 3 (4. . .5. . .fill in the blank) other channels you need to have on your system.


----------



## HarleyD

James Long said:


> Bandwidth is always an issue. D12 is only replacing D10 for now and when D10 is repaired available bandwidth will increase but even ~57% more capacity (215 total channels?) is a limit. How much will 3D cut into that capacity?
> 
> It is better now because most channels have a considerable amount of HD but there is plenty of history where several "HD" channels were added that were limited hours and people wondered why DirecTV bothered. Lighting up 20% channels where it precludes a more desired 100% channel later is a mistake.
> 
> After the "May" additions DirecTV will have room for about 50 more feeds which sounds like a lot until one looks at what is left to add. It is easy to come up with a couple of dozen more HD channels than being added in May and then you're talking about using up half the remaining capacity to add those.
> 
> It gets easier as the number of carried channels increases and the number of remaining channels drops but available bandwidth is always an issue lurking somewhere in the background.


Do you really think they are going to attempt to negotiate carriage agreements with more channels than they have the bandwidth to air? Will they one day say "Oops. We don't have room for that channel now that we have negotiated an agreement. If only we hadn't lit up such-and-such a channel. Alas and alack. Woe is me."

If you need prompting, the answer is no.

So assuming they are not negotiating to carry more channels than they can broadcast, lighting up the channel with partial HD content ahead of one with 100% HD content is not a bandwidth consideration...period.


----------



## James Long

HarleyD said:


> Do you really think they are going to attempt to negotiate carriage agreements with more channels than they have the bandwidth to air?


Yes, I do. Until the contract is signed they can always pull out of negotiations. It could even be used to pressure the channel providers. ("If you want to be on our system before we run out of space give me an offer that is good enough to accept.") The way you put it DirecTV would have to decide, NOW, what ~50 channels they will ever add after the next 30 announced and not negotiate outside if those 50 channels. Or turn back the clock to last year when they were negotiating for the 30 they will be adding soon.



> So assuming they are not negotiating to carry more channels than they can broadcast,


That is a bad assumption. Predetermining who they will talk to and refusing to talk to anyone else? It is better to keep the options open.

There is no problem being in negotiations for more channels than you have space for. The problem only comes from agreeing to carry more channels than you have space for. Negotiation is just talk, not commitment to carry.


----------



## HarleyD

James Long said:


> The way you put it DirecTV would have to decide, NOW, what ~50 channels they will ever add after the next 30 announced and not negotiate outside if those 50 channels.


Not at all. Exactly the opposite in fact.

You decide on the next 10 or 15 or 20 or whatever providers that either provide HD feeds today or will provide them in the foreseeable future.

Of that group you light them up as agreements are reached.

And you have still left 35-40 slots in reserve for whatever tomorrow brings.


----------



## DaveC27

HarleyD said:


> Do you really think they are going to attempt to negotiate carriage agreements with more channels than they have the bandwidth to air? Will they one day say "Oops. We don't have room for that channel now that we have negotiated an agreement. If only we hadn't lit up such-and-such a channel. Alas and alack. Woe is me."
> 
> If you need prompting, the answer is no.
> 
> So assuming they are not negotiating to carry more channels than they can broadcast, lighting up the channel with partial HD content ahead of one with 100% HD content is not a bandwidth consideration...period.


Airlines do it all the time selling more seats than they actually have because they know that at departure time some people will have missed their flight or not turned up for other reasons

It's the same with carriage deals if you start by selling space you only have room for then you'll find some channels will close down and others you just can't come to a deal with. So you start by trying to sell 110% of the capacity knowing that at least 10% won't get to ever launch


----------



## GoPokes43

Hutchinshouse said:


> Please stop by and adjust my dish. :grin:
> 
> I'm in mid 70s to low 80s. What is the lowest signal strength we can have (without picture issues)? I know the signal is digital and there's no difference in picture quality from signal strength 100 and signal strength 75. I'm just curious what is the lowest we can go and still have a solid picture? I live in So Cal, not too many issues with rain fade. Other than the fact that it's raining right now. :lol: My luck, once TravHD goes live tomorrow, So Cal will be hit with a monsoon. :lol:


I continued to get a solid picture on the HD channels when my dish got out of alignment and was getting mostly 40s (in good weather). Anything more than a light rain caused problems though.


----------



## James Long

HarleyD said:


> You decide on the next 10 or 15 or 20 or whatever providers that either provide HD feeds today or will provide them in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Of that group you light them up as agreements are reached.
> 
> And you have still left 35-40 slots in reserve for whatever tomorrow brings.


So you would negotiate far below capacity and leave plenty of space for the future. Not a bad plan. The problem is the "foreseeable" in that future. How far out are you looking? A year? Two? One needs to look as far out as the next addition to their bandwidth or one will be caught short.

I believe it is better to keep open communications with all potential providers. As noted, there are already at least a couple of dozen channels with live HD feeds that DirecTV will not have at the end of the 30 "May" additions. Plus there are a couple dozen more that will have HD by the end of the year. Just dealing with those with HD feeds now consumes half of the available space and adding in the "forseeable future" channels consumes all available space.

So now you know there are 50 channels with HD feeds today or by the end of the year ... Which 10 - 15 - 20 are you going to negotiate with and which 30+ are you going to ignore? Personally I'd say negotiate with everyone and sign the best deals for the best channels.


----------



## GoPokes43

HarleyD said:


> Do you really think they are going to attempt to negotiate carriage agreements with more channels than they have the bandwidth to air? Will they one day say "Oops. We don't have room for that channel now that we have negotiated an agreement. If only we hadn't lit up such-and-such a channel. Alas and alack. Woe is me."
> 
> If you need prompting, the answer is no.
> 
> So assuming they are not negotiating to carry more channels than they can broadcast, lighting up the channel with partial HD content ahead of one with 100% HD content is not a bandwidth consideration...period.


I don't know D's actual operational behavior, but as an attorney who prepares transaction documents for many types of deals, I can assure you that a high priority issue in many deals is, "how can I get out of this if I want to do so in the future?" If the other party isn't holding up its end of the bargain, then you can usually walk away. Or, you put in conditions such that if an alternative comes along that does not yet exist, you can terminate. Even if you don't have such rights, termination may involve simply providing adequate notice or paying a nominal fee (though, reputational issues can be significant in whether to go through with it). Other times, it is considerably more painful to terminate a contract through high penalties.


----------



## LameLefty

You guys need to stop spamming this thread with content discussions. Some "super" people especially should know better. 

:backtotop


----------



## dcowboy7

Alls i know is satracer said 99% of the people would be happy with D12s channels & just getting those 30 doesnt make 99% happy.

So we know more channels are on the way.


----------



## Rikinky

So what are the odds that new HD Channels will pop up tommorow morning?


----------



## georule

GoPokes43 said:


> I continued to get a solid picture on the HD channels when my dish got out of alignment and was getting mostly 40s (in good weather). Anything more than a light rain caused problems though.


Yeah, I'm in the low/mid 90s and usually find a very heavy rain will cause the picture to drop out if the signal strength gets much below 50.


----------



## ATARI

Rikinky said:


> So what are the odds that new HD Channels will pop up tommorow morning?


50/50


----------



## Hoosier205

Rikinky said:


> So what are the odds that new HD Channels will pop up tommorow morning?


99.9% - 100%


----------



## Athlon646464

ATARI said:


> 50/50





Hoosier205 said:


> 99.9% - 100%


:icon_lol:

I say 75%


----------



## wmb

Looks like its almost time to say goodbye to this thread!

I must say its been fun... I'll miss the discussion and rambling.


----------



## Hoosier205

I have absolutely no idea why anyone here would doubt that we will see these new HD channel tomorrow. Some folks have this pesky issue with reality.


----------



## James Long

Hoosier205 said:


> Some folks have this pesky issue with reality.


Doesn't DirecTV have a pesky issue with Reality? They have not switched over to National Geo Wild yet. 

As for D12, I understand that everything is fine and it will be on service as scheduled.
I read that somewhere ...


----------



## Jon J

When would the EPG update if tomorrow is the day?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jon J said:


> When would the EPG update if tomorrow is the day?


Two minutes after we post them here. Pretty good FM we've got.


----------



## smiddy

James Long said:


> It is DirecTV's responsibility to choose the best HD channels available ... especially with their advertising that claims they have the HD content people want. Given the choice between a 24/7 HD channel and a prime time only HD channel one would hope they would choose the one with the most HD (although it is possible that the prime time only channel would be more desired than the 24/7).


I won't argue with that. There were a couple of points that I was subtly trying to make, which wasn't very clear. The channels in the initial days of migration from SD to HD were not as mature toward providing HD content. This has changed significantly and to worry about the SD versus HD content should be considered mildly, not overtly extreme. I believe all of the projected channels being turned on have volumes of HD content to share and that too should squelch concerns as well. To worry about the SD versus HD content on an HD channel, in my estimation, seems like a waste of time given the current environment. To your point, everything DirecTV is bringing forward, besides the Premium Channels, are things that I certainly do want, and they all fit the bill of being mature HD channels.


----------



## smiddy

hjones4841 said:


> Of course, but I remember my previous disappointment when I tuned to a newly launched HD channel only to see pillar-boxed SD. You are correct, tho, the industry is much further down the road on HD conversion now, so hopefully most new and recently produced programming will be true HD.


I do hope so...proof is in the pudding as they say.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And you know, in the case of the channels we think we might get, these have been around a little while so they probably have a decent amount of HD on them.


----------



## smiddy

Stuart Sweet said:


> And you know, in the case of the channels we think we might get, these have been around a little while so they probably have a decent amount of HD on them.


I know, I am hoping that DirecTV - 12 fires them up loud and proud tomorrow morning!


----------



## inkahauts

I predict a mass exodus of national channels, and a couple new channels.. that are all conus.. I think its the spots that are going to be moved slower over the course of the drift.

Ok, I added my 2 completely unsupported guesses


----------



## jefbal99

For the first time in forever, I will be up at 6am


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Sad. I'm up at 4:30 every day.


----------



## jefbal99

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sad. I'm up at 4:30 every day.


Poorly stated on my part, I get up at 6am or before randomly as needed by work or family commitments. This will be my first Wednesday 6am for new HD in forever


----------



## elaclair

LameLefty said:


> You guys need to stop spamming this thread with content discussions. Some "super" people especially should know better.
> 
> :backtotop


LOL I was confused with this post until I remembered, oh yeah I have a certain "super" person blocked....


----------



## TimGoodwin

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sad. I'm up at 4:30 every day.


Me Too!


----------



## DodgerKing

jefbal99 said:


> Poorly stated on my part, I get up at 6am or before randomly as needed by work or family commitments. This will be my first Wednesday 6am for new HD in forever


I wake up anytime between 5:00am and 6:30am every day of the week regardless of what time I go to bed. I just naturally wake at that that time and cannot sleep longer even if I am tired and want to sleep more.

Anyway, the live time for us left coasters is 3:00am (I will definitely not be getting up that early).


----------



## P Smith

:backtotop:


----------



## teriden

If no one is certain what channels will launch tomorrow does that mean someone will cruise the entire guide looking for new ones. If so, I'm checking for posts first thing. Us left coasters are lucky, 6AM is much easier than 3AM
:grin:


----------



## bjdotson

I get up at 5:00 mdt; probably doesn't matter though. My signal strength on the 103ca averages about 30 and the 103cb averages about 35. Directv won't roll a truck until I can call and specify channels not received.


----------



## Hutchinshouse

Rikinky said:


> So what are the odds that new HD Channels will pop up tommorow morning?


*That's the fact, Jack&#8230;!*


----------



## Hoosier205

teriden said:


> If no one is certain what channels will launch tomorrow does that mean someone will cruise the entire guide looking for new ones. If so, I'm checking for posts first thing. Us left coasters are lucky, 6AM is much easier than 3AM
> :grin:


Everyone *is *certain.

The Travel Channel
WGN
MSNBC
Hallmark Movie Channel
ESPNU


----------



## Piratefan98

Hoosier205 said:


> 99.9% - 100%


Agreed. The only thing stopping this train would be a last-minute unforeseen technical difficulty. And while that would be disappointing, just think of the new "D12 is Broken" thread that would be born.


----------



## MartyS

teriden said:


> If no one is certain what channels will launch tomorrow does that mean someone will cruise the entire guide looking for new ones. If so, I'm checking for posts first thing. Us left coasters are lucky, 6AM is much easier than 3AM
> :grin:


Just check here... _*someone*_ will post it :hurah:


----------



## Jeremy W

MartyS said:


> Just check here... _*someone*_ will post it :hurah:


We've known what channels will be launching tomorrow for about a week now.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> We've known what channels will be launching tomorrow for about a week now.


And thanks for pointing out that it was right before our eyes! : http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2452244


----------



## loudo

Stuart Sweet said:


> Sad. I'm up at 4:30 every day.


Stuart, can you start the coffee? :grin:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I usually do.


----------



## dontknow

i hope this thread closes tomorrow


----------



## curt8403

dontknow said:


> i hope this thread closes tomorrow


 when the new hd channels go live, I think it will.
I will miss it though. 
at least D14 will be starting soon.


----------



## slimoli

When we get the new HD channels tomorrow, will they be the first real channels transmited from D12 ? I presume the D10 channels have not been swapped yet, correct ?


----------



## Sixto

slimoli said:


> When we get the new HD channels tomorrow, will they be the first real channels transmited from D12 ? I presume the D10 channels have not been swapped yet, correct ?


Correct, nothing yet.


----------



## pfp

Sixto said:


> Correct, nothing yet.


:crying_sa


----------



## Sixto

pfp said:


> :crying_sa


but as expected.


----------



## jjeeffff

So I am guessing they will add the 5 new channels on D12 tomorrow, make sure everything goes smoothly with the 5 and then gradually add the rest of the D10 channels?


----------



## Sixto

jjeeffff said:


> So I am guessing they will add the 5 new channels on D12 tomorrow, make sure everything goes smoothly with the 5 and then gradually add the rest of the D10 channels?


Sounds like a good plan.

Or we may see more (some D10).

We'll know in the morning.

The future is bright.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like another early riser morning tomorrow. 

Sleep is highly over-rated.

D12 - ready and waiting now....let it ride....


----------



## SteveHas

My pole is out and up
(and by that I mean Festivus Pole)


----------



## James Long

jjeeffff said:


> So I am guessing they will add the 5 new channels on D12 tomorrow, make sure everything goes smoothly with the 5 and then gradually add the rest of the D10 channels?


Either that or overnight would be a bad time to record anything off of D10.

It would be amazing to see it all done as one huge flash cut. :eek2:


----------



## wmb

Here's hoping the Q3 HD anticipation thread is a busy one!


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

SteveHas said:


> My pole is out and up
> (and by that I mean Festivus Pole)


is it time for the airing of grievances?


----------



## R0am3r

SteveHas said:


> My pole is out and up
> (and by that I mean Festivus Pole)


Thanks for the clarification. Happy Festivus!


----------



## ARKDTVfan

I've got my alarm set for 4:55 am

also taking a vacation day

I need a day of R&R


----------



## Tom Robertson

ARKDTVfan said:


> I've got my alarm set for 4:55 am
> 
> also taking a vacation day
> 
> I need a day of R&R


Wouldn't that be W&R?

Watching and Rejoicing


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Tom Robertson said:


> Wouldn't that be W&R?
> 
> Watching and Rejoicing


:lol:
you've got a point :blush:


----------



## Paul A

First!

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2433770&postcount=6978

Fingers crossed in anticipation. And a big thank you to all that make this thread so enjoyable to follow and those awesome folks at DirecTV.

MORE HD!!!!


----------



## ARKDTVfan

Paul A said:


> First!
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2433770&postcount=6978
> 
> Fingers crossed in anticipation. And a big thank you to all that make this thread so enjoyable to follow and those awesome folks at DirecTV.
> 
> MORE HD!!!!


:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

You mind hanging out with me at the horse racing track?


----------



## Standtall29

When Will D10 Be Back In Operation And Will The channels Go Back To D10?


----------



## smiddy

Man, Wednesday can't get here soon enough, eh?!


----------



## Standtall29

Well wont be able to see it in the morning getting d10 fine on my boat so d12 nothing. Checked out the footprints of the satellite and its not covering Dunmore Town in the bahamas where my boat is at the time. Spend allot of time on the boat May have to go to dish since i will not be able to watch. Like 10 miles from footprint wow.


----------



## Shogunz

Tick, tock.


----------



## smiddy

Standtall29 said:


> Well wont be able to see it in the morning getting d10 fine on my boat so d12 nothing. Checked out the footprints of the satellite and its not covering Dunmore Town in the bahamas where my boat is at the time. Spend allot of time on the boat May have to go to dish since i will not be able to watch. Like 10 miles from footprint wow.


Must be awesome!  Testing the mapping and all...do you need a deck hand or anything?  :sure:


----------



## Stewpidity

just checked my signals, 103(ca) TP19 on HR20 is 72, HR21 is 81....everything else was 90 or above, yesterday everything was in the 90's


----------



## Tom Robertson

Standtall29 said:


> When Will D10 Be Back In Operation And Will The channels Go Back To D10?


Not sure, but not very long from now is my expectation.

As for the channels moving back to D10? Well... DIRECTV regularly adjusts channel placements as needed to balance bandwidth and maintain resolution. So my guess is the channels will shift around some, yet I don't expect a wholesale movement back to D10. Just new ones on D10.

Yet, I could be very wrong for a reason I just don't know about. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Hutchinshouse

We there yet?


----------



## LameLefty

Stewpidity said:


> just checked my signals, 103(ca) TP19 on HR20 is 72, HR21 is 81....everything else was 90 or above, yesterday everything was in the 90's


Not to worry - I'm sure there's a lot of electrical, thermal and RF load-balancing going on as they prepare to start carrying real traffic RealSoonNow.™


----------



## Hoosier205

I was just gazing towards the heavens when I heard a pop and saw a flash...uh-oh...there went D12.


----------



## matrixj3

ejjames said:


> Whatever they do tomorrow...I sure hope they don't add "The Travel Channel HD"! Gee whiz, I mean it's not like people are beating down the door asking for it.
> 
> If you want my opinion, and I can't imaging ANY scenario where the whole world doesn't...if you want to see beautiful landscapes of world destinations in crystal cleat quality..then TRAVEL there!
> 
> As for me, I'm in bed, credit card in hand and waiting for Home Shopping HD!..I mean the world is watching DirecTv...let's do this right!
> 
> Sorry if it's OT Sixto, but some things cannot be silenced...and of course I'm kidding.[/QUOTE


----------



## rrrick8

ARKDTVfan said:


> I've got my alarm set for 4:55 am
> 
> also taking a vacation day
> 
> I need a day of R&R





Tom Robertson said:


> Wouldn't that be W&R?
> 
> Watching and Rejoicing


Alot better than a day of RBR.
Been there, done that. NOT fun!


----------



## wmb

Coca Cola Kid said:


> is it time for the airing of grievances?


So, you haven't been following this thread... They've been aired, washed, dried, ironed, starched, folded and put in the closet.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm not sure I'll be there .. 3am is mighty early :lol:


----------



## Piratefan98

Some of us won't be getting home until later in the afternoon tomorrow, so please, *NO SPOILER THREAD TITLES*. We want to be able to find out on our own whether the channels came online.

Thanks in advance,
Jeff


----------



## smiddy

Hutchinshouse said:


> We there yet?


Almost...watch tomorrow morning for new HD, you'll see.


----------



## HelenWeathers

Coca Cola Kid said:


> is it time for the airing of grievances?


Nope. It's time for the airing of new HiDef.


----------



## Malibu13

Piratefan98 said:


> *NO SPOILER THREAD TITLES*.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jeff


You've got to be kidding :lol:


----------



## sigma1914

Donnie Byrd said:


> You've got to be kidding :lol:


Never question Mr. T. :lol:

P.S. Welcome "home" Mr. Byrd.


----------



## Malibu13

sigma1914 said:


> Never question Mr. T. :lol:
> 
> P.S. Welcome "home" Mr. Byrd.


"Pity the fool" who questions Mr. T :lol:

Thanks for the return welcome, sigma


----------



## bobnielsen

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure I'll be there .. 3am is mighty early :lol:


Likewise, although I did for D10. OTOH, if I end up laying awake anticipating things, I just might go watch.


----------



## Sixto

Starting to think we may see some D10 activity tomorrow.

Few changes in data tonight that might hint at it, or it's just prep, but interesting that it's night before.


----------



## Paul A

Twas the night before D12, and all through the house...


----------



## Dolly

wmb said:


> So, you haven't been following this thread... They've been aired, washed, dried, ironed, starched, folded and put in the closet.


Oh that is one of the best posts I have seen on here :lol: D* has us all spoiled. And I just keep telling people to be nice to each other  I don't watch any of the new Channels that are going to be added tomorrow, but I'm happy for the people that do watch them :sunsmile:


----------



## mhking

And at 6 a.m.: "We get signal....Main screen turn on....It's you...."


----------



## P Smith

It should be 8am PDT. El Segundo morning time.


----------



## merchione

So according to this we still need these:

BBC America HD
DIY HD
E! Entertainment Television HD
G4 HD
History International HD
Nat Geo Wild HD
Turner Classic Movies HD

But where is IFC HD, AMC HD?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

Piratefan98 said:


> Some of us won't be getting home until later in the afternoon tomorrow, so please, *NO SPOILER THREAD TITLES*. We want to be able to find out on our own whether the channels came online.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Jeff


But spoilers is why they invented the internet.


----------



## Davenlr

My SageTv server just notified me of 6 new added channels to my DirecTv lineup on my HTPC


----------



## murry27409

6?


----------



## Davenlr

murry27409 said:


> 6?


Yea:
MNBCHD 356
ESPNUHD 614
TRAVHD 277
WGNHD 307
LOOR601 601
HMCHD 560

I think the new one on 601 is just another Directv info channel or something. I dont know why Zap2it sent that...there is no guide data associated with it.


----------



## murry27409

kewl. nice to have further confirmation.


----------



## billyinlasvegas

Davenlr said:


> Yea:
> MNBCHD 356
> ESPNUHD 614
> TRAVHD 277
> WGNHD 307
> LOOR601 601
> HMCHD 560
> 
> I think the new one on 601 is just another Directv info channel or something. I dont know why Zap2it sent that...there is no guide data associated with it.


I just checked the DIRECTV iPhone app and all of these channels are showing up.


----------



## Newshawk

What a long, strange road it's been...

We wrap up one here (D12) and await the next one (D14)...

See you all on the other side!


----------



## Lyle Thorogood

What does the Local Origination 601 mean then...?? Info channel for ESPN or something?


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

billyinlasvegas said:


> I just checked the DIRECTV iPhone app and all of these channels are showing up.


Same here.


----------



## ejjames

D you need to subscribe to the sports pack to get ESPNU? I've never had that in my guide.


----------



## Coca Cola Kid

ejjames said:


> D you need to subscribe to the sports pack to get ESPNU? I've never had that in my guide.


No, its been on Choice since June 1, 2009 due to a new carriage agreement.


----------



## hyde76

merchione said:


> So according to this we still need these:
> 
> BBC America HD
> DIY HD
> E! Entertainment Television HD
> G4 HD
> History International HD
> Nat Geo Wild HD
> Turner Classic Movies HD
> 
> But where is IFC HD, AMC HD?


+2 for 
BBC America HD
DIY HD


----------



## HerntDawg

-1

BBC America HD


----------



## -Draino-

MSNBC just went live with HD :hurah:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Discussion here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=177432


----------



## cavinny

Yes new HD channels. Are these coming from D12?


----------



## cheesedjdj

Well its finally live and im lovin it


----------



## Sixto

It's been a great ride ...

We move on ...

New D12 is "live" thread:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=177432​D10 Amelioration discussion:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=176796​D10/D11/D12 HD channel / transponder discussion:http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2462749​


----------

