# Multi-switch?



## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Can someone remind me what a multi-switch is again? 

I currently have a dish on the roof of my apartment building w/4 coax lines coming down and going into 2 DirecTv DVR's. I am moving to a condo across the street. This condo complex has a single DirecTv dish on the roof that serves all the units, but I notice that there is only 1 coax connection in the wall outlet.  Am I going to be able to get the 4 individual coax connections I need for my 2 DVR's out of this outlet? Is that what a multi-switch is?

Thanks,
Steve


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

Mutli-switch is the box that you connect the 4 lines from the dish to. It gives you more outputs to connect more receivers. If there is a dish for the building you are going to have problems unless they have a big multi-switch with a lot of outputs and you can run 4 lines from it.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, so the multi-switch would be inside my unit, with the single coax from wall outlet going into it and then 4 individual coax lines coming out to plug into my DVR's?

And then there's another multi-switch for the property itself that the single dish on the roof plugs into? I'm assuming it has lots of outputs since the dish is serving 450 units, and I think see what your saying -- maybe they've only allocated one output per unit for this property-wide switch?


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

No. The multi-switch would be inside the building some where with lines ran to all the rooms. You will need 4 lines ran from where the multi-switch is located in the building. Are you sure that dish is for the building? I don't think it could handle 450 units. Even with a big multi-switch. I think they only go up to like 28 or something like that.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

The single line for MDU [I think that's the name] can be a "can of worms" for the new HD. The complex must have a contractor servicing the units. They are going to be the only ones to help out. The last posting about this turned into a nightmare, as the system couldn't handle Ka signals. Check with the management of the new complex first.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

I got some more info now. 

The contractor servicing the units is Consolidated Smart Systems. I called them and they said no problem to hook up both my DVR's (ie. all 4 tuners), although she mentioned a "stacker" several times during discussion. What's a "stacker"? If the multi-switch is for the building, then is it a "stacker" that would be installed in my unit itself for the single coax outlet to support 4 tuners?

The total charge for my hookup is $200 which she said covers the cost of the required equipment (multi-switch and/or a "stacker"). Does that sound reasonable for whatever equipment I'd need to get connect 4 tuners to the single coax jack in my unit?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> I got some more info now.
> 
> The contractor servicing the units is Consolidated Smart Systems. I called them and they said no problem to hook up both my DVR's (ie. all 4 tuners), although she mentioned a "stacker" several times during discussion. What's a "stacker"? If the multi-switch is for the building, then is it a "stacker" that would be installed in my unit itself for the single coax outlet to support 4 tuners?
> 
> The total charge for my hookup is $200 which she said covers the cost of the required equipment (multi-switch and/or a "stacker"). Does that sound reasonable for whatever equipment I'd need to get connect 4 tuners to the single coax jack in my unit?


I think "normal" would be a better word.
A "stacker" will change the frequencies and "stack" them on one line. Then you need a "de-stacker" on your end that will output the four feeds to your DVRs.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, I think I got it now. But now let me backtrack... I did a google search for Consolidate Smart Systems and am not thrilled w/what I find. Lots and lots of complaints about poor service, repeated over-billings, over-charging, etc. And then you also mention about the complexity and various problems that can occur w/a MDU/single dish installation.

My new condo has a clear line of sight to the D* satellites so I think I could just stick my own dish on my balcony (the guy next door has a Dish dish on his but not sure if it's really allowed by HOA). Am I correct in assuming that I can apply the above to using my own dish on my balcony? ie. I put my dish & multi-switch on my balcony + a stacker in my unit, and then I only need one hole drilled through the wall for a single coax cable to support all 4 of my tuners?

If so, then this might be the preferrred way to go. Plus, might be cheaper if done via D* movers advantage thing since I'm one of their "best customers", or so the say every friggin time I've ever called them.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> OK, I think I got it now. But now let me backtrack... I did a google search for Consolidate Smart Systems and am not thrilled w/what I find. Lots and lots of complaints about poor service, repeated over-billings, over-charging, etc. And then you also mention about the complexity and various problems that can occur w/a MDU/single dish installation.
> My new condo has a clear line of sight to the D* satellites so I think I could just stick my own dish on my balcony (the guy next door has a Dish dish on his but not sure if it's really allowed by HOA). Am I correct in assuming that I can apply the above to using my own dish on my balcony? ie. I put my dish & multi-switch on my balcony + a stacker in my unit, and then I only need one hole drilled through the wall for a single coax cable to support all 4 of my tuners?
> If so, then this might be the preferrred way to go. Plus, might be cheaper if done via D* movers advantage thing since I'm one of their "best customers", or so the say every friggin time I've ever called them.


NO, is the short answer.
I don't know that you'd be paying monthly to anybody but D*. I think [don't know] that the contractor is just "maintaining" the system & you would move your D* account over to your new location.
Now if you could get a dish mounted, what you want to do isn't done with the MDU system, but "it's little brother" called a SWM, which isn't yet out [but coming soon and it is under testing here].
Not being "you", I would think: the $200 install should come off some of the rent, as it is an upgrade to the unit & can't be used if I [you] moved out.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, one last question here -- what about OTA HD? I'm assuming that there is an OTA antenna on the roof, probably part of the DirecTv dish like it is for the regular 3-lnb and 5-lnb dishes. Do stackers and multi-switches work w/OTA HD signals as well or would this have to be a separate coax run?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> OK, one last question here -- what about OTA HD? I'm assuming that there is an OTA antenna on the roof, probably part of the DirecTv dish like it is for the regular 3-lnb and 5-lnb dishes. Do stackers and multi-switches work w/OTA HD signals as well or would this have to be a separate coax run?


To my knowledge [limited as it is for MBU] OTA isn't part of it. You should ask the contractor as they would know.
Normally OTA is a seperate coax. There is a real problem with the new SATs coming that will be using Ka lo.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

By "new sats uing Ka lo", do you mean the MPEG4 satellites?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> By "new SATs using Ka lo", do you mean the MPEG4 satellites?


Not the current MPEG-4 SATs as they "only" use Ka hi, but later this year when the "new" SATs [MPEG-4] become active [the 100 new HD channels] will be using Ka lo too.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

But I won't be seeing any of those channels w/my MPEG2-based HR10-250, right?


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> But I won't be seeing any of those channels w/my MPEG2-based HR10-250, right?


Correct, the HR10 cannot receive any of D*s MPEG4 signals. Only the H20 and HR20 are MPEG4 compatible.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> But I won't be seeing any of those channels w/my MPEG2-based HR10-250, right?


You "won't be seeing them" yes, but as to the OTA question, they may still be on the system so they would/could interfere with your OTA. You will really need to ask the contractor how or what they are doing.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Well, after a couple calls to the contractor, I have to conclude they are clueless. No one there has any idea that MPEG4 even exists in the D* world. 

And after a couple calls to D* itself about this, it's even worse. The guy I spoke to about moving my subscription claims that I just need a couple $5 splitters for this, and that he uses a splitter himself w/no probs. I know that won't work. So he transfer me to tech support and the person there has never heard of a stacker and says there's nothing at all in her db when she searches for it.

So maybe I should just do the 4 friggin holes in my new wall and put my own little dish on my balcony. This sounds like it's going to be far more complicated to get going in the 1st place, and then lots of possbilities that I have problems in the future if I want to see all the new HD channels...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Well, after a couple calls to the contractor, I have to conclude they are clueless. No one there has any idea that MPEG4 even exists in the D* world.
> And after a couple calls to D* itself about this, it's even worse. The guy I spoke to about moving my subscription claims that I just need a couple $5 splitters for this, and that he uses a splitter himself w/no probs. I know that won't work. So he transfer me to tech support and the person there has never heard of a stacker and says there's nothing at all in her db when she searches for it.
> So maybe I should just do the 4 friggin holes in my new wall and put my own little dish on my balcony. This sounds like it's going to be far more complicated to get going in the 1st place, and then lots of possbilities that I have problems in the future if I want to see all the new HD channels...


Well OK, look at it this way: you don't need to pay the couple of hundred bucks to the contractor. What's a few holes? There is always Spackle when you leave.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Well I do like the idea of being in total control of my own dish. I did some googling for stackers and came across this about the Sonora DIRECTV® Stacker with HRPI-20 Power Inserter:

*WILL NOT PASS HD (SAT-C) PROGRAMMING CONTENT FROM DIRECTV*

And the one that works w/Phase 3 dish (Sonora SS212 DIRECTV Phase III Stacker/DStacker for SAT A,B,C plus Off-Air Antenna (SS-212)) is out of stock and discontibued. Plus, it was like $500 list price when available.

OK, so what stacker do I need now for SAT-C HD and is it likely that whatever stacker I install now will not work w/the MPEG4 stuff mentioned above?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Well I do like the idea of being in total control of my own dish. I did some googling for stackers and came across this about the Sonora DIRECTV® Stacker with HRPI-20 Power Inserter:
> *WILL NOT PASS HD (SAT-C) PROGRAMMING CONTENT FROM DIRECTV*
> And the one that works w/Phase 3 dish (Sonora SS212 DIRECTV Phase III Stacker/DStacker for SAT A,B,C plus Off-Air Antenna (SS-212)) is out of stock and discontibued. Plus, it was like $500 list price when available.
> OK, so what stacker do I need now for SAT-C HD and is it likely that whatever stacker I install now will not work w/the MPEG4 stuff mentioned above?


One dish, four holes, no stacking. They're "just not there yet". For a single dwelling there soon will be a SWM that will work with the "new stuff" and let you use one line, but it won't connect to "their crap". FWIW


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Ugg, now I find that these 4 friggin holes ain't exactly as easy to do as it sounds either:

_Before installing a satellite dish, homeowners/residents must obtain from management a copy of the current satellite dish policy, submit a remodeling agreement and receive written approval from the Architectural Committee._

Plus, there aren't any real walls b/t the unit and the balcony either -- it's actually wall-to-ceiling glass along the b/t the unit and balcony.

Also, any idea if the HDVR2 and/or HR10-250 has destacking capability built-in, like the HR10 that's in my closet does?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Ugg, now I find that these 4 friggin holes ain't exactly as easy to do as it sounds either:
> _Before installing a satellite dish, homeowners/residents must obtain from management a copy of the current satellite dish policy, submit a remodeling agreement and receive written approval from the Architectural Committee._
> Plus, there aren't any real walls b/t the unit and the balcony either -- it's actually wall-to-ceiling glass along the b/t the unit and balcony.
> Also, any idea if the HDVR2 and/or HR10-250 has destacking capability built-in, like the HR10 that's in my closet does?


NO.
But the SWM [single cable] works with the HR-20.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=78249


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Alrighty, well I now own the unit above in question and have discovered a new problem:

I have only a single coax line coming into the unit from the floor's "communications" closet. The stacker solves the issue w/connecting 4 tuners to this single coax, but it seems this coax line is used by either DirecTv or TW cable, and I need TW's cable internet. 

Is there any device or other way that I can put both DirecTv (w/stacker) and TW cable (for internet) on this same coax run?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Alrighty, well I now own the unit above in question and have discovered a new problem:
> 
> I have only a single coax line coming into the unit from the floor's "communications" closet. The stacker solves the issue w/connecting 4 tuners to this single coax, but it seems this coax line is used by either DirecTv or TW cable, and I need TW's cable internet.
> 
> Is there any device or other way that I can put both DirecTv (w/stacker) and TW cable (for internet) on this same coax run?


Diplex? If your stacker doesn't use the OTA channels [and shouldn't I think] then you should be able to diplex in & out for your cable modem.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

No OTA coming from this dish. So a diplex splits the line or something?

This means that I'll have a total of 4 independent D* streams and a cable internet connection all passing through this single RG-6 coax line. Is there enough bandwidth, etc. for all of them?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> No OTA coming from this dish. So a diplex splits the line or something?
> 
> This means that I'll have a total of 4 independent D* streams and a cable internet connection all passing through this single RG-6 coax line. Is there enough bandwidth, etc. for all of them?


Diplexing is where lower frequencies go [or come] from one input,while higher frequencies come [or go] from another input and then all go out a common output [coax].
Your cable modem works in the same frequencies as OTA channels so for these it's either or, but they are all below your SAT frequencies, so it should work for you.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, I got you. I didn't realize cable tv and cable internet were all part of the same VHF/UHF range that a standard OTA antenna uses. Thanks for the help. 

I goggled "directv diplexers", now that I know what I'm looking for and have read up on these a little more. Diplexers = cheap, Stackers = friggin' expensive...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> OK, I got you. I didn't realize cable tv and cable internet were all part of the same VHF/UHF range that a standard OTA antenna uses. Thanks for the help.
> 
> I goggled "directv diplexers", now that I know what I'm looking for and have read up on these a little more. Diplexers = cheap, Stackers = friggin' expensive...


Coax = cheap
More coax = still cheap.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Well, no go on this....

The DirecTv guy was just here and there apparently is a problem due to the particular equipment they have on premises, which he claims is super high end and goes all the way up to 3500mhz (or something like that). There are 3 systems on site, all traveling on this same coax line, and one of them delivers their own basic cable service in same freq range as TW cable internet.

His conclusion was that I need a special filter that needs to filter out everything from their equipment below 950mhz on the line (to allow TW cable internet) but it has to also not interfere w/the HD signal that's in the 3500mhz range of the same coax. He said he wasn't aware that such a device existed yet but he'd ask around... 

Does this sound like he knows what he's talking about?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Well, no go on this....
> 
> The DirecTv guy was just here and there apparently is a problem due to the particular equipment they have on premises, which he claims is super high end and goes all the way up to 3500mhz (or something like that). There are 3 systems on site, all traveling on this same coax line, and one of them delivers their own basic cable service in same freq range as TW cable internet.
> 
> ...


I very much doubt "he" as much of an idea of what's going on.
The "filter" he's going to look for is the diplexer.
Your Internat comes from TW, right? If so then it works [as I said] in the OTA/cable frequency range so one side of the diplexer needs to be: 5-860 MHz & the other side needs to be 950-2150 MHz. I don't think their stacker goes above 2150MHz.
Here's a link for most likely what they are using: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SS212
Here's a diplexer: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=PVDP2PP
Good luck with this "tech" [doesn't know.....well you can guess...]


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

I'm pretty sure I did see 3500mhz on something that looked like a 6-way splitter. 

I'll see if I can't get back in that communications closet to take a couple pics of what's in there to add to this thread... while I await his research on this mysterious filter he thinks he needs. 

I bet you'll know what's going on from just the pic.....


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> His conclusion was that I need a special filter that needs to filter out everything from their equipment below 950mhz on the line (to allow TW cable internet) but it has to also not interfere w/the HD signal that's in the 3500mhz range of the same coax. He said he wasn't aware that such a device existed yet but he'd ask around...
> 
> Does this sound like he knows what he's talking about?


Actually yes it does sound like he knows what he's talking about. If they are combining some level of basic cable with stacked satellite, then the filter he is referring to is nothing more than a high pass filter that would pass the satellite channels but block the lower frequency analog cable stuff. Then you could insert your cable internet.

Problem is, unless you spend a lot of money, the filters are not that sharp and there could easily be leakage that could interfere with your internet service. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you may have some challenges making it work to it's optimum capability.

I'm doing kind of the opposite using a low pass filter. I'm blocking everything above cable channel 30 so I can mix my own modulated signals with the lower basic cable channels. But I'm not trying to mix cable internet with it - that's a different challenge.

Carl


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Did I miss that the stacker is carring the TW cable too? 
If the cable modem is like mine, there is one channel of "cable" for my down stream & my up stream is around 20 MHz.
What would need filtering as the coexist with cable [as they are part of it]?
The real question is if the stacker goes above the "normal" SAT feeds of 2.2 GHz.
The diplexer should work if the upper limit of the SAT side doesn't limit the "stacked" feed. From what Sonora & Solid Signal show.....they don't go about 2.2 GHz.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

option #2: move your cable modem to the TW cable [in the closet] and go with a wireless network to your computer.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Yep, that's what he was saying, carl6 -- a filter/diplexer that will block the low VHF/UHF range so no interference w/the cable internet signal but that will also allow the high frequencies (up to 3500mhz) to pass w/o significant db loss doesn't yet exist to his knowledge.

Here's a more detailed description of the situation, veryoldschool:

This is a 450 unit MDU w/multiple tv and internet options -- cable tv from TW, cable internet from TW, DirecTv from CSS, crappy 1mbit DSL from CSS, Verizon for phone, etc. All of these providers converge into the same "communications closet", from which there is a only a RG-6 single coax going to each unit. No problems if you want cable tv and internet from TW or if you want DirecTv and DSL, but I am apparently the very first person to want DirecTv and also TW's 10mbit cable internet service at the same time.

Yesterday, TW came out and I told them just go ahead and grab this coax for cable internet and then when the DirecTv guy comes, he'll just use a diplexer to hop on the same coax w/you. What I didn't know until today, when the DirecTv guy came out, was that CSS actually has 2 dishes on the roof -- one for DirecTv and another one is some sort of cheap satellite-based cable-like service w/just a a few channels and no HD. It's apparently free b/c it's part of my HOA condo fee. This option uses the same VHF/UHF range that TW uses.

So there is already a signal on this coax line in TW's VHF/UHF cable internet range that needs to be blocked before TW diplexes on the line. That's no problem, he said, except that I also need HD from DirecTv which he said their equipment delivers separately -- in this 3500mhz range -- from the basic DirecTv package (presumably b/c the basic DirecTv package is also free, ie. already in my condo fee).

He's not aware of any filter/diplexer that exists yet than can put on the line that will both block the low end so TW can use it for my cable internet but also pass this 3500mhz high end for my HD w/o high end signal loss for my HD or low end interference w/my TW cable internet connection.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

So this sounds like "option 2" is needed where you connect the modem in the closet to TW and go wireless to your computer(s), freeing up the coax to feed your D* signal [along with the lower band(s) of channels].
I've worked for some cable equipment manufactures & on "stacking". It's much easier to use the lower frequencies than the upper. "The first GHz" is easier than the second & so on... Since "I'm not there", I have no idea of what they are using. [ Maybe you can find my fingerprints on it?] :lol:


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

I'm going get some pics in a few hours when both CSS (ie. D*) and TW come back out today.

I think I may just be in luck though -- there's a mysterious network switch in the communcations closet. I say "mysterious" b/c no one -- not D*, not TW, and not the building engineer knows who owns it and what's for. I think it's gotta be CSS's DSL service, but the CSS guys thinks it's must Verizon's DSL, but the building engineer, condo management, and Verizon itself all claim that there is Verizon DSL available for this property.

Regardless, if there's a switch, then there's gotta be another path into the units --a RJ-45 network cable. So if I can put the TW cable modem in the central closet instead of my unit where it is now, then I can plug TW coax into it and then RJ-45 into my unit, leaving the coax line for D* only, no diplexing required. Probably easier said than done b/c the one thing that all parties agree on is that I'm not allowed to touch anything. lol. So I may be "googling" for lock picking techniques sometime tomorrow....

The CSS D* guy said the same thing, btw, about the frequencies -- it's gets harder and harder to work over coax as you get higher and higher. This is where their super-expensive state of the art equipment comes in -- this 3500mhz range.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Good luck. Did you really want to learn about all of this? :lol: 
Keep me posted...


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Good luck. Did you really want to learn about all of this? :lol:
> Keep me posted...


Well, I'm a dork. lol

The D* guy back out today and I told him to just unplug the TW input and take the coax line all to himself. 15 minutes later, I got a single outlet inside my unit supporting all 4 tuners in both my DTivo's. Here are some pics:

The communications closet (each floor has 4 of them):

  

The last pic is the 3500mhz thing, which I forget what it is exactly. The super-expensive stacker equipment is all in a single room on another floor that I'm not allowed to see.

Here is switchbox inside my unit:



Here is the coax outlet in 2nd bedroom that's destacked for 4 D* tuners b/t my HD and SD DTivo's:



He did say I might have some problems w/Sat 119 due to all the stuff in this pic and he'd come back if I discovered that I did.

The TW also came back a little later after this and agreed w/me that I should be able to get my cable internet over the CAT5 cabling that runs into my unit by just putting the cable modem in the communications closet shown above instead of the unit switchbox above where they've been putting them for everyone else. I think this CAT5 line actually belongs to the D* MDU provider for their DSL service, but who cares... With that said, TW guy did not actually get it to work today and is returning tomorrow w/a couple of tools he was missing.

Now what blows my mind is that this is a fairly new 452 unit luxury condo complex, fully occupied. And yet I am *the very first person *that has ever said I want my D* but I want a a 10mbit cable internet too, instead of that lousy 1mbit DSL crap. The property management, HOA, and even the chief building engineer all said that this couldn't be done. Luckily, I am a dork who knows enough to doubt these claims, and more importantly, knows where to go to find what I don't know (ie. right here).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Yeah, sometimes I'm too stupid to know I can do something so I just do it & it works.
I think your cat5 should work fine, if you can get to both ends...your computer & the closet.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I saw this today and thought it might help anyone who is interested in hooking up two WB68's. It has a nice little picture.

Hooking UP Two WB68's


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## beavis (Jun 9, 2005)

^^^^

Interesting, but there's no need for any kind of polarity locker as long as the splitters were high frequency power passing.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

beavis said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Interesting, but there's no need for any kind of polarity locker as long as the splitters were high frequency power passing.


While the "locker" isn't needed [in all cases] the diagram comes from this pdf: http://www.sonoradesign.com/newpdfs/Sheet_HRPID1422_11.pdf

For the locker.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Well, TW tried but we failed to get cable internet into the unit via the other line. Looked like it should work but there was just so signal at the other end of the line in my unit. So let me go back to the original problem w/why exactly diplexing D* and cable internet on same coax doesn't work in this situation.

Here is what (I think) I know. Everything below is purely CSS (Consolidate Smart Systems) the D* MDU provider (no Time Warner at all):


 CSS maintains 3 separate systems here:

a basic "total choice" DirecTv system which does not include any D* HD channels
a DirecTv "system" that does include the HD channels
a basic cable tv service, from another dish on roof

The "separate systems" (his words, not mine) for D* is confusing to me. There's 1 D* dish on roof and 1 coax line going into each unit, so what is the point of having 2 different D* "systems", one that somehow excludes the HD channels? I'm guessing "system" here really means just a frequency range created by their stacking equipment?

 The D* HD channels are delivered in the 3500mhz range (of the stacked signal?)

 CSS's basic cable tv service is delivered in the same VHF/UHF range as TW cable tv and internet, but this can be easily blocked on the line w/a filter so that it's gone prior to TW diplexing on.

 According to CSS installer, diplexing TW's cable internet on the same coax going into my unit won't work b/c of the HD channels delivered in 3500mhz range.
Alrighty, so in order to have both D* w/HD channels and TW cable internet on the single coax line entering my unit, I need to:

block CSS's cable tv signal on the coax via a filter (or I think this filter *is* the diplexer?)

pass through CSS's HD channels which are in the 3500mhz range

What exactly is the problem here and what is the missing piece of technology that's preventing this from working? There are no diplexers that exists which can pass a signal in the 3500mhz range?

Are there any possible workarounds?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Well,There are no diplexers that exists which can pass a signal in the 3500mhz range?
> 
> Are there any possible workarounds?


Diplexers "top out" at 2200 MHz.
WiFi 802.11 wireless network http://www.newegg.com/Store/Category.aspx?Category=41&name=Wireless-Networking-Devices


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, so it's the diplexer that's the problem. Let me ask this:

What would be their rationale for using this 3500mhz range at all? Is it due to the number of units (450 or so) that all need to be stacked to share a single dish?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> OK, so it's the diplexer that's the problem. Let me ask this:
> 
> What would be their rationale for using this 3500mhz range at all? Is it due to the number of units (450 or so) that all need to be stacked to share a single dish?


It wouldn't be the number of units, but rather number of signals stacked. To get the HD signals, they must provide/rent/lease/sell you a destacker that takes the stuff at the 3500mhz and brings it back down to frequencies the receivers can handle.

Cheers,
Tom


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## dave29 (Feb 18, 2007)

beavis said:


> ^^^^
> 
> Interesting, but there's no need for any kind of polarity locker as long as the splitters were high frequency power passing.


the sonora is actually a power inserter also, i have the exact set-up


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> It wouldn't be the number of units, but rather number of signals stacked.


By "number of signals stacked", you mean the number of units that are configured like me? ie. other peeps who also have a destacker in their unit to connect multiple tuners to a single coax outlet?



Tom Robertson said:


> To get the HD signals, they must provide/rent/lease/sell you a destacker that takes the stuff at the 3500mhz and brings it back down to frequencies the receivers can handle.


Yes, I have a separate destacker for my HD D*Tivo and another (presumably cheaper) destacker for my SD Tivo. Where I'm confused -- what's so special about the HD channels? Why put them up in the 3500mhz range? Previously, when I had my own dish, I had 4 coax runs interswapable just like any other 24" dish. No special equipment needed anywhere.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

The condo system is from NAS national antenna system and does "stack" up to 5 sats 101,110,119,95 & if locals on 72.5 ,this also. It can carry terrestrial 54-860 signals also. Its freq range is 2 to 3500 MHz.
Check out this site for diagrams and products;
http://www.nasproducts.com
With their HIGH freq. diplexor (up to 3500MHz) you should be able to piggy back the TW cable onto the stacked Directv signals. KA support not yet available but "in the works"
SWTD-2 - www.pdisat.com/documents/NAS_equipment.pdf

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

I believe the main impediment to your internet may be the active NAS splitter.
Your pictures show an LMX-82 but (depending on where the "diplexing" is occuring) you need an LMX-82R with the "return path" 2 way capability for cable internet (2 to 40 MHz range).
I still believe you can work around this if you can diplex the internet onto the Directv signal after the LMX-82 and split it out in your unit before the "customer unit" destackers . Use 2 of the SWTD-2 or SWTD-3 high frequency diplexors . 2 without 72.5 , 3 if you get D* locals on 72.5 sat.

Good Luck

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

If the condo has a MATV antenna system piggy backed into the master stacker for HDTV you will have to choose Cable or OTA to diplex into single line. Both use the 54-806 MHz range. If you want both a second coax into the condo will be needed.

Hope this helps

Doctor j


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> By "number of signals stacked", you mean the number of units that are configured like me? ie. other peeps who also have a destacker in their unit to connect multiple tuners to a single coax outlet?


Not the number of units, but the number of channels


> Yes, I have a separate destacker for my HD D*Tivo and another (presumably cheaper) destacker for my SD Tivo. Where I'm confused -- what's so special about the HD channels? Why put them up in the 3500mhz range? Previously, when I had my own dish, I had 4 coax runs interswapable just like any other 24" dish. No special equipment needed anywhere.


Now take those four coax cables and then "stack" one on top of the other. To do this each "new" cable must be converted to a higher frequencies so it doesn't interfere with the previous frequencies. There is nothing special about HD except more channels & each one is bigger [equals 3-5 SD channels]

Thanks to Doctor j and his link to the system that your using, you can find splitters [diplexers] that should work for you.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Now that there is some information about what this system is, things are "coming into view".
Wireless may be a viable option.
If not then: Carl6's high pass filter is probably needed to knock down the signals below 950 MHz, as the splitter [diplexer] doesn't reject those signals enough. The setup would be something like this: cable comes to your unit where the High pass filter is the first, then the splitter [diplexer] and the TW cable connects. Then on the other end, the splitter [diplexer] would then separate the TW from the coax before it goes to the de-stacker.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Good info, doctor j. I grew up in Mountain Brook. Mom and sister are still there too.

There are only 2 places where equipment can go -- the communications closet and inside my unit. Both D* and TW coax outputs are in the comm closet. Only a single coax exists from the comm closet to my unit and adding another run is not possible. So I think that means the diplexing has to occur in the comm closet while the de(?)plexing occurs in my unit?

Let me see if I can't somehow get this info to the installer.


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Also, I'm just really, really reluctant for any wireless option b/c once the router goes in the comm closet, I am totally cut off from it. I've never needed physical access to my DSL modem so I assume a cable modem is same way, but I've had several occasions to reboot my router. 

Plus, residents are not allowed to put their own stuff in the comm closet. I snuck in the little cable modem and velcroed it to the wall so it looks like part of TW's stuff, but a whole wireless router would raise some suspicions...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Good info, doctor j. I grew up in Mountain Brook. Mom and sister are still there too.
> 
> There are only 2 places where equipment can go -- the communications closet and inside my unit. Both D* and TW coax outputs are in the comm closet. Only a single coax exists from the comm closet to my unit and adding another run is not possible. So I think that means the diplexing has to occur in the comm closet while the de(?)plexing occurs in my unit?
> 
> Let me see if I can't somehow get this info to the installer.


It "looks" as if you have the idea now.
So the "comm closet" is "down the hall"?


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

It is a small world. I live in Vestavia just off 280. Mt Brook is all around me and my zip is actually Mt Brook.
I have an NAS system self installed in my home. Much more complex than needed but it is the best way I,ve found to get 4 sat lines (2 Tivo HD DVR's) and OTA via one coax. I ran 4 lines to the entertainment center but when I added a parallel system for KA (an H-20 soon to be upgraded to an HR-20) and the wife still wanted her cable because she "knew " where the channel were , I had to have more lines. The wire chase physically couldn't hold more than the 4 coax, 2 cat 5 and phone lines so the "super stacker" gave me all kinds of options.
I've experimented with several combinations and know the cable can be diplexed into the D* signal either at the master stacker (ie everybody gets it) or as in aboveost, with the NAS diplexor.
Your pictures seem to make me believe your setup is overly complicated. Hard for me to say that with 2 dishes ;9 receivers ;4 OTA antennas and > 3000 ft of coax and >2000 ft of cat 5 cable throughout the house.
I believe that if you identify your condo's coax from the LMX-82 (the silver NAS 8 way splitter in the common closet) and diplex the TW cable coax with the SWTD-2 diplexor there in the common closet, then in your condo, at the entertainment center you will need another SWTD-2 with the ant side split for the cable modem and regular tv and the sat side to a SCD-4P54W quad output customer unit (you have a SCD-4P52W dual unit and a SCD-1UW lower freq ,older single output unit) you will have what you want. If there is cable or OTA from the master stacker unit "downstairs" the high pass filter that veryoldschool alluded to will strip off the <900 MHz frequencies and let the TW cable diplex more cleanly. See 
http://www.tinlee.com and look at the high pass filters..
The filter should be in line, out of the LMX-82 and before the SWTD-2. I think the Zinwell could be eliminated. I think its a standard 3X4 multiswitch. The sonora amplifier is ok for amplifing SAT signals >950 but might try it out of system as it may be blocking the very low cable frequencies. NAS uses an SPA-1W amplifier in their diagrams if you need the signal boost. The whole NAS system is pretty well amplified so i doubt it will need much. The customer units can be powered and will compensate for a good bit of loss. I have 100 & 150 ft on 2 runs from splitter w/o a problem. Some of this can be expensive as each switch is $30 to $75. and the quad unit is $250.
Hope this is not too confusing but what you want is doable, just complicated!!

Doctor j


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Yeah, I pretty much have no idea what the heck your talking about. lol 

But I shall return after spending a few hours googling, and then kinda know what your talking about...


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

See This 1st :

http://www.northamericancable.com/nas/nas.pdf

Also look at applications here :

http://www.nasproducts.com

This is the most direct application:

http://216.254.116.117/nas/adm/pdf_files/MFH-1 without 72,5 satellite + 60 ch SMATV.pdf

The left side of diagram is "downstairs"ie"off limits"
Mid column is the "common closet"
and the right side of the page is inside your condo.

Complete "parts list here:

http://www.pdisat.com/documents/NAS_equipment.pdf

Happy "surfing" - double pun intended

Doctor j


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

Well, here's the end result. They still say diplexing won't work even after (supposedly) reading this thread and looking at doctor j's solution. Who knows if they really read any of this or not, but they just couldn't do it.

So I relunctantly signed up for their superlame 1mbit DSL service which uses a CAT5 line into the unit. This is the line that me & TW couldn't get to work when I snuck their cable modem into the communications closet. Turns out it was a bad line altogether. So they spliced me in to another comm closet downstairs and all is well. 

And it turns out that this is not a (lame) DSL service at all -- it's a full T1 line giving me 10mbit download and 10mbit *upload* too. Both average around 8mbit in actual use which is same as TW except for 8x faster uploading. There is apparently a lot of confusion b/c this property was just purchased by Consolidated Smart Systems from Multiband...


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

But while I'm still here, let me go back to this:



OK, so now I'm unpackking all my HT gear, dusting everything off, starting to neatly arrange all my cabling, etc. and then I get to this collection of crap attached to my coax outlet. There is no neat way to arrange all these things anywhere. I did move the single amplifier into the levitron box in my closet but it seems everything else has to be b/t the wall coax jack and my 2 tivo's.

Is there a single device out there that can replace all the components attached together in the above pic? Why are the SD and HD outputs separate devices? Did he just throw together various things he had in his truck at the time or is this the way it has to be?


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I think "normal" would be a better word.
> A "stacker" will change the frequencies and "stack" them on one line. Then you need a "de-stacker" on your end that will output the four feeds to your DVRs.


be happy to be wrong! the r15 can handle a stacked signal with just a "satellite" splitter.

The HR-20 is similarly equipped, as per the SWM thread.

hooray, beer!


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

GAH! this is the kind of setup I'd be totally ambivalent about...I'd love to do it from a self-satisfaction and sheer wonder standpoint....on the other hand, part of me that was instilled by the old-timers at my HSP would be just dying to say "can't do it" and walk.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

It does appear that your installer just put together what he had.

You have two "customer" units and a peculiar method of splitting and recombining with the zinwell multi-switch. It would help if you defined exactly what the cables go to.

The 2 out of the Directv box(scd4p52w) are the full 3 sat (HD) outputs for an HD DVR (is it an HR10-250) . The 2 out of the zinwell multiswitch go to another DVR ?(what model)? Do both tuners work? I'm confused about why the splitter has one side direct and another side through an older generation single output device. Can't be "seeing" the same range of signals.

The sonora device is a line amplifier and as i said before may be blocking the OTA/cable signals since it is for sat signals only (950-2150 MHz). It might be ok w/o that or using an NAS system device the spa-1u or spa-1w would be the approved device.

To finally answer your question , yes it can be made much neater. A quad output device (scd4p54w) would be only slightly larger than the 2 output gray square "directv" box you already have and would give you all 4 outputs from the one coax out of the sonora box. You could ditch the lmx2r switch, the hr s2 splitter, the scd-1uw customer device and the zinwell sam 3402 3X4 multiswitch.
The scd4p52w you now have would be the 4 output scd4p54w.

Only problem is limited availability ( took about a month for me to order from Pacemso ) and cost ($250.00 or so). Was worth it for me to get 4 lines from 1 ( I have 2 of these units). The provider might be talked into the upgrade, maybe.

See my post #60 for details of model #'s. I have ordered parts from www.pacemso.com
and
www.pdisat.com

Doctor j


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

doctor j said:


> It does appear that your installer just put together what he had.
> 
> You have two "customer" units and a peculiar method of splitting and recombining with the zinwell multi-switch. It would help if you defined exactly what the cables go to.


The 2 outputs from the zinwell multiswitch go to the 2 sat inputs on my SD D*TiVo (HDVR2), while the 2 outputs from the "grey box customer device" (what is this exactly, anyway?) go to my HD D*TiVo (HR10-250).

This is somewhat confusing to me. Is this setup maybe b/c all he didn't have any 4 output "customer devices" in his truck, just this 2 output grey box one? I'm assuming that I can plug the outputs of the grey box device into either TiVo no prob, but there will be no HD channels from the multiswitch outputs due to them being stacked into the 3500mhz range?

I connected the VHF/UHF output of the SCD-1UW to the OTA input on my HR10-250 and, what do you know, there is indeed a OTA HD antenna on the roof, but it is poorly positioned b/c I only get have the DTV channels in the area and can't get the one HD OTA channel I really want (PBS) at all.

I think the OTA HD situation here is starting to make sense now. They will tell you that if you want OTA HD, then you need your own indoor antenna. But I think the real reason is that you need this mess of devices to get that OTA signal from their antenna on the roof and they don't want to do this for the other 451 units here. Hence, they've never bothered to position the roof OTA antenna correctly. Does this jive?



doctor j said:


> The sonora device is a line amplifier and as i said before may be blocking the OTA/cable signals since it is for sat signals only (950-2150 MHz). It might be ok w/o that or using an NAS system device the spa-1u or spa-1w would be the approved device.


I tested with and without the Sonama amp in line and I do indeed lose 5 or 6 transponders on 119 without it (23, 25, 27, etc I recall).



doctor j said:


> To finally answer your question , yes it can be made much neater. A quad output device (scd4p54w) would be only slightly larger than the 2 output gray square "directv" box you already have and would give you all 4 outputs from the one coax out of the sonora box. You could ditch the lmx2r switch, the hr s2 splitter, the scd-1uw customer device and the zinwell sam 3402 3X4 multiswitch.
> The scd4p52w you now have would be the 4 output scd4p54w.
> 
> Only problem is limited availability ( took about a month for me to order from Pacemso ) and cost ($250.00 or so). Was worth it for me to get 4 lines from 1 ( I have 2 of these units). The provider might be talked into the upgrade, maybe.


Alrighty, that's what I'm looking for. Let's see if I can get one from them b/c I don't want to pay for it myself. They charged me $200 just to connect all the crap I currently have and I don't own any of it. For $200, I think they can let me "borrow" an SCD4P54W.


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Stephen M. Smith said:


> (what is this exactly, anyway?)


this is a destacker. Takes the request from the receiver (HR10-250) and picks which band,101 RHP, 101 LHP ,119 RHP or 110&119 LHP combined, to allow and then the appropriate channel comes in. 5 sats available in full NAS system 101,110,119,95 & 72.5 stacked in 500 MHz bands from 250 -3450 MHz]



Stephen M. Smith said:


> I'm assuming that I can plug the outputs of the grey box device into either TiVo no prob


Correct



Stephen M. Smith said:


> but there will be no HD channels from the multiswitch outputs due to them being stacked into the 3500mhz range?


I don't know what signals are in the multiswitch , thus my comment about my confusion but probable only 101 sat signals.[/QUOTE]

I think your on the right track

Hope I can help

Doctor j


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

Maybe this diagram will help understand a bit of this technology

Doctor j


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

doctor j said:


> Maybe this diagram will help understand a bit of this technology
> 
> Doctor j


I found this 2006 Pace catalog which has quite a few pages explaning the MFH1 system, which is clearly what is installed here.

Unfortunately, I think your mention of limited availability for the SCD4P54W is an understatment... googling it turns up just to 2 total links -- this Pace catalog and your other post in this very forum!


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## doctor j (Jun 14, 2006)

3 souces that I know of.
I've used #2 & #3

http://www.northamericancable.com/nas/nas.pdf

http://www.pdisat.com/documents/NAS_equipment.pdf

http://www.pacemso.com/sky/Aug06/MFH1/

Have to register to order.

Doctor j


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## Stephen M. Smith (Feb 25, 2004)

I called Pace and they got 23 of them (SCD4P54W) in stock for $250 each. I didn't order one yet b/c I haven't given up on getting one from CSS for free, since I already paid them $200 for the priveledge of *borrowing* the 5 devices in this lame solution.


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