# No More 2 Year Contracts



## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

There is quite a bit of buzz going around on the internet and in the business section of newspapers right now that cell phone companies are seriously considering abandoning 2 year contracts in favor of higher prices for the phones initially and then month to month contracts.

Is there any chance of this movement coming to the Satellite market also? It would certainly mean higher prices for equipment but more freedom to change providers and/or equipment for consumers.

Anybody's thoughts/inside baseball knowledge about this would be appreciated.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Great. This will cost is all more money.


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## Cyber36 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'll believe it when I see it........


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Not likely - DirecTV makes a killing on the receivers. If someone pays $200 for an HR24 and keeps it forever they make money. If someone pays $200 for an HR24 and cancels before their 2 year commitment DirecTV makes money and then gets to charge the next poor sap $200 for the same receiver. Bottom line - they make money.

If DirecTV sold you an HR24 for $300-$400 or even $500 and then allowed you to leave when you feel like it they are risking breaking even. They are not in the business of breaking even!


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

I would prefer to keep the 2 year committment and have the lower up-front costs. The cost of switching providers would be just as high because you would have to factor in the up-front cost for the equipment. 

If you say you could just re-use your old equipment, then how is that different from putting your account on hold and keeping the equipment, then reactivate that account and put the other account on hold?

With my current telephone account, even though I have a 2 year committment, I can get a new phone at a significantly reduced price every 18 months as long as I sign a new 2 year committment. I have only changed cell phone providers twice going back to the days of analogue cell phones.


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## tworivers1 (Aug 28, 2008)

Directv makes their money on your monthly bill not the cost of the receiver. I've been with DTV for 15 yrs I think my first bill was around $50 for the same service I have now. Ive been paying over $90 for the last 7-8 years. You still pay for the receiver 10 fold over the life of the receiver. Its a never ending cycle.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

D* allows customers today to buy their receivers with no commitment. That's been around for a number of years. The reason for the 2 year commitment is to recoup the investment it takes to bring a new customer on board, which is a large amount of money. When you consider most new customers come in on 3 or more receivers, plus the installation, etc, etc...that takes a long time to recoup those expenses and thus the commitment requirement.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

If people cant be bothered to carry through with something for 2 years let them pay the higher rates, not everyone else who has no problem with 2 year commitments.


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## cmoss5 (May 26, 2006)

Just got my Directv bill....went up $7.00...package went up....dvr went up...HBO,Starz pkg went up


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## Jacob Braun (Oct 6, 2011)

tds4182 said:


> There is quite a bit of buzz going around on the internet and in the business section of newspapers right now that cell phone companies are seriously considering abandoning 2 year contracts in favor of higher prices for the phones initially and then month to month contracts.
> 
> Is there any chance of this movement coming to the Satellite market also? It would certainly mean higher prices for equipment but more freedom to change providers and/or equipment for consumers.
> 
> Anybody's thoughts/inside baseball knowledge about this would be appreciated.


For tv? Not a chance. Especially DirecTV or Dish. It costs a LOT of money to install a new satellite dish, receivers, and wiring, plus support a new customer as they get used to a system. It takes quite a while to make money off of a customer, hence the two year agreement. And as SR said DirecTV does allow customers to pay more and not have a commitment, as does Dish.

This works very well with mobile providers in Europe where they'll do a discounted plan for doing no subsidized phone, or a discounted phone and a higher cost plan, with more discount on the up front phone fees the more you pay.
For cell phones I would gladly pay $40 or $50 less a month if I had to buy my iPhone at full price, and I'm sure many people feel the same way.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

tds4182 said:


> Is there any chance of this movement coming to the Satellite market also? It would certainly mean higher prices for equipment but more freedom to change providers and/or equipment for consumers.
> 
> Anybody's thoughts/inside baseball knowledge about this would be appreciated.





Satelliteracer said:


> D* allows customers today to buy their receivers with no commitment. That's been around for a number of years. The reason for the 2 year commitment is to recoup the investment it takes to bring a new customer on board, which is a large amount of money. When you consider most new customers come in on 3 or more receivers, plus the installation, etc, etc...that takes a long time to recoup those expenses and thus the commitment requirement.


As noted, the option is already there. However, you would probably be better off paying the ETF if you want to leave early than paying the full up-front cost for the equipment.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Satelliteracer said:


> D* allows customers today to buy their receivers with no commitment. .


Where can you Buy them and How much Does HR24 cost?

You can But a Hopper for $350, so if Directv Charges more then that for an HR they are smoking crack!


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Satelliteracer said:


> D* allows customers today to buy their receivers with no commitment. That's been around for a number of years. The reason for the 2 year commitment is to recoup the investment it takes to bring a new customer on board, which is a large amount of money. When you consider most new customers come in on 3 or more receivers, plus the installation, etc, etc...that takes a long time to recoup those expenses and thus the commitment requirement.


Yet the commitment is also restarted every time a "new" (and I use that term very loosely) piece of equipment is added by an _existing_ customer; long after that investment has been recouped.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

damondlt said:


> Where can you Buy them and How much Does HR24 cost?
> 
> You can But a Hopper for $350, so if Directv Charges more then that for an HR they are smoking crack!


You can buy receivers directly from D*, been that way for years.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Satelliteracer said:


> You can buy receivers directly from D*, been that way for years.


Yep, I know all about Buying receivers from Directv, and you still didn't mention how much?


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

raott said:


> Yet the commitment is also restarted every time a "new" (and I use that term very loosely) piece of equipment is added by an _existing_ customer; long after that investment has been recouped.


Yes, but most customers don't upgrade to new equipment in those first two years.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

damondlt said:


> Yep, I know all about Buying receivers from Directv, and you still didn't mention how much?


I thought you asked "Where can you buy them"

I don't know the prices, I'll have to check.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tds4182 said:


> Is there any chance of this movement coming to the Satellite market also?.


No chance whatsoever.

The fanciest phones are cost a whole lot less than half the cost of the average satellite setup and the cost of service is a pittance compared to television programming costs. Wireless phone install costs shouldn't be very high. DIRECTV figures that the cost to bring a new subscriber on board (Q4 2012 SAC) is $848.

DIRECTV currently offers Genie takers over $100 a month in signing discounts for the first 12 months. Selling a package that is going to cost upwards of $150 a month is going to be tough.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Satelliteracer said:


> You can buy receivers directly from D*, been that way for years.


Nonetheless, you can't open an account with purchased receivers nor without a 24 month commitment.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Satelliteracer said:


> Yes, but most customers don't upgrade to new equipment in those first two years.


I was addressing the stated rationale behind the two year commitment.

Is there a different rationale for the customer incurring two-year equipment when a customer "buys" what often ends up being a used piece of equipment, which has likely already been "sold" at least once to other customers?


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## Joe Tylman (Dec 13, 2012)

harsh said:


> Nonetheless, you can't open an account with purchased receivers nor without a 24 month commitment.


This is incorrect on both points.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

damondlt;3190728 said:


> Yep, I know all about Buying receivers from Directv, and you still didn't mention how much?


You wouldn't want to know about the cost, I know that HD DVR's would be around $500 or HD Receivers for $350-400 but I'm just guessing.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

damondlt said:


> Yep, I know all about Buying receivers from Directv, and you still didn't mention how much?


So call and ask.......whats the big deal?


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

harsh;3190734 said:


> Nonetheless, you can't open an account with purchased receivers nor without a 24 month commitment.


Not true...there is a "Purchase Option". You just won't see it on the D* website.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

harsh said:


> Nonetheless, you can't open an account with purchased receivers nor without a 24 month commitment.


Unless something has changed, I'm pretty sure you can.


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

They have an option now where you can lease out a receiver for an upgrade and not get the agreement. You pay full leasing costs for the receiver and full cost for install/shipping. This is not offered outright but they do have the option. This is for existing customers though. No options for new customers to start with less than at least a 1 year agreement.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

On a somewhat related subject, it is true that you cant open new account without a "professional" installation? IOW buy/lease a receiver from Solid signal, buy a dish and do everything yourself. I have done this for myself, my employer, and a couple friends but I have not done one for 7 - 8 years


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> So call and ask.......whats the big deal?


You mean no one knows here?

I guess its not just as easy as a simple phone call then is it.


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## BLWedge09 (Jan 6, 2007)

damondlt said:


> You mean no one knows here?
> 
> I guess its not just as easy as a simple phone call then is it.


It might be, but maybe the rest of us just don't care as much as you about the cost. If you want to know the cost so bad, why don't you pick up the phone and find out for yourself?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> You mean no one knows here?
> 
> I guess its not just as easy as a simple phone call then is it.


You're probably better off financially by buying an owned unit off someone here or ebay...after verifying the RID before buying.


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## sunfire9us (Feb 15, 2009)

acostapimps;3190766 said:


> You wouldn't want to know about the cost, I know that HD DVR's would be around $500 or HD Receivers for $350-400 but I'm just guessing.


Here is how you know the cost of buying a dvr or receiver...... You take the up front cost of EITHER one and add $300 and NOW YOU HAVE THE FULL PRICE to buy it. I bought my HR21 back when you could get them at Best Buy and then called Card Access and asked to buy and they billed the $300 on my bill and changed the status of my dvr from leased to owned. You MUST go thru card access for this


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

If you want to purchase the receiver from D* to own:
Standard $149
DVR $399
HD $399
HD DVR $499
Tivo HD DVR(THR22) $499
The Genie does not have the purchase option.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Insane prices.



"goinsleeper" said:


> If you want to purchase the receiver from D* to own:
> Standard $149
> DVR $399
> HD $399
> ...


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

goinsleeper;3190878 said:


> If you want to purchase the receiver from D* to own:
> Standard $149
> DVR $399
> HD $399
> ...


Are you sure those aren't the Non-Return costs?


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

Justin23 said:


> Are you sure those aren't the Non-Return costs?


Those are purchase to own costs. I believe the non-return fee for the HD DVR is $250.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

A cell company (Virgin Mobile I believe the article stated)recenlty tried this with the Iphone - according to the reports the first year of the experiment is about 3/4's over and they have only sold 1/3 of the required amount of phones to customers - they are going to take a huge loss on this.

Seems like people want this, but not at the price that companies will charge, but at the price they dream it should be


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## tds4182 (Jul 17, 2003)

wingrider01 said:


> A cell company (Virgin Mobile I believe the article stated)recenlty tried this with the Iphone - according to the reports the first year of the experiment is about 3/4's over and they have only sold 1/3 of the required amount of phones to customers - they are going to take a huge loss on this.
> 
> Seems like people want this, but not at the price that companies will charge, but at the price they dream it should be


I guess the ideal situation would be a two tiered system: (1) Buy your units and pay full price with no commitment or (2) continue the present heavily subsidized system for new equipment. That way both sides of the argument would have their options.

D* would still charge a monthly fee for the programming.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

damondlt said:


> You mean no one knows here?
> 
> I guess its not just as easy as a simple phone call then is it.


Noone that has read and responded. Many of us couldn't care less because many of us dont give two shakes about owning electronics equipment that goes out of date every few years. There have been threads in the past with what some people have paid to buy a receiver or dvr from directly from Directv. IIRC a HR2x model was around $400. And it looks like goinsleeper has actually posted some numbers


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

raott said:


> Insane prices.


Yep couldn't agree more.

My guess they cost way under the lease price to make. 
I'm sure I'm going to be told otherwise.

But if you can Buy a Hopper for $350 and someone still makes a profit. Then they must not be too expensive to make.

And the hopper is a way more advanced machine then any of those NON Genie models. 
And I don't even like Dish.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> Many of us couldn't care less because many of us dont give two shakes about owning electronics equipment that goes out of date every few years.


Many more of us don't care about upping our 24 month agreements everytime we want to get rid of our outdated equipment either.

You make it sound like Directv hands over a new model receiver every 2 years.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

damondlt said:


> Many more of us don't care about upping our 24 month agreements everytime we want to get rid of our outdated equipment either.
> 
> You make it sound like Directv hands over a new model receiver every 2 years.


For the people that complain enough, they do get handed over new receivers. Looking at your sig, I see you have all the current models.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> For the people that complain enough, they do get handed over new receivers. Looking at your sig, I see you have all the current models.


Yep, and I still have a year left of a commitment.

thats mean Directv going to hand over HR44 and HR24 to replace my 34 and 23??


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

wingrider01 said:


> A cell company (Virgin Mobile I believe the article stated)recenlty tried this with the Iphone - according to the reports the first year of the experiment is about 3/4's over and they have only sold 1/3 of the required amount of phones to customers - they are going to take a huge loss on this.
> 
> Seems like people want this, but not at the price that companies will charge, but at the price they dream it should be


I believe it is Leap Wireless/Cricket.

People forget the MSRP for the iPhone is really $600 for 16GB, $700 for 32GB and $800 for 64GB I believe. They think that the cost is the $200/300/400 that AT&T and Verizon charge for them. They want the phone for $200 and the service for $50, and that just isn't going to happen. If you want the phone for $200 be ready for $90/month service fees, if you want $50/month service then get ready to pay $600 for the phone.

As far as people complaining about the lease fees, you need to remember a lot of the time you don't end up paying them. The fees get waived for new customers, they get waived for all you people that call in and beg for a new receiver etc.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

If the prices were more reasonable I would rather buy than lease personally. I'm sure the crazy prices are just to keep people in the lease model where DirecTV makes the most money. I would rather (and do) install and support my own equipment. Based on past experience I don't need or want a DirecTV 'installer' screwing with my system although the last 'installer' they forced on me was much better than ones in the past.

It is much more affordable to purchase Dish Network receivers that are 'arguably' more advanced and thus more expensive to build than DirecTV's boxes.

I guess I can't blame DirecTV for asking such insane prices... It's not like they are hurting because people are not subscribing because the don't like the 'lease' setup.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

When DIRECTV announces their annual price increase there's all the anger at spending another $4 to $6 per month. If that's how the majority of customer feel then I doubt they'd want to spend hundreds of dollars more just to get something that's purchased just to avoid a two year commitment.


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## fleckrj (Sep 4, 2009)

I do not think the 2 year committment is that big of a deal. I have been with DirecTV since 1999 and do not have any reason to switch to anyone else. I did switch my phone provider from Sprint to Verizon in 2010, but prior to that, I had been with Sprint for more than 15 years. I also changed my ISP from Earthlink to AT&T in 2011, My committment is up, but I have no reason to switch at this time.

Maybe I am just odd, but I have been married to the same woman for 40 years, worked for the same company for 35 years, and lived in the same house for 23 years. I am not afraid of committments, and as committments go, 2 years is nothing.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

fleckrj said:


> Maybe I am just odd, but I have been married to the same woman for 40 years, worked for the same company for 35 years, and lived in the same house for 23 years. I am not afraid of committments, and as committments go, 2 years is nothing.


You're certainly not odd. I've got you beat on the marriage number - 57 -- and the same house --41 -- and I've been retired 23 years.

However, I paid off my ETF when I switched to FiOS over a year ago after my DVR stopped responding reliably to my remote inputs. And yes, I did all the good things suggested on this forum without eliminating the problem. Some commitments are made to be broken.

I also saved more than the $20/month ETF when I switched.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Satelliteracer said:


> You can buy receivers directly from D*, been that way for years.


But I thought that even if you bought one, you still have to return it if you canceled service? IE) Buying one isn't really buying one - ever since the lease model.

Lets say you look at a cell phone company and want the latest iPhone. You pay $200 and sign a 2-year agreement. If another iPhone comes up before your almost done with the 2-years (usually around month 20 or so), and you want it badly... you have to pay full retail price. Otherwise every 20-24 months (depending on carrier) you can upgrade your phone and re-up your commitment to get it at the lower price.

Now if you do that, you never have to turn your old phone in! I've seen people hang onto their old phones, ebay them, sell them on gazelle, give them to a friend or family member, or use them as an ipod touch on wifi.

Thing is with DirecTV you never own anything, am I right? That cell phone business model just isn't the same when compared to DirecTV. I'm not sure about Dish Network, but I would imagine they are more similar to DirecTV rather than AT&T / Verizon / Sprint / etc...

Also with cell phones you get a choice. Iphone, Android, Windows Phone, cheap no frills flip phone, etc... With any TV provider your choices are very limited. There isn't a huge app marketplace. The performance of the set top box doesn't even come close to your smartphone (just look at how smooth the UI interacts on your smart phone). You maybe have 2 choices DirecTivo (which is crippled and not even close to Tivo's current Premier technology) or the DirecTV HD UI. Not that DirecTV's UI is bad... just your not going to get a Windows Media Center embedded DVR or a Google TV type fully integrated DVR from DirecTV. You may be able to get Google, Microsoft and Apple products from AT&T... but not from any TV provider - be it cable or satellite.

Not sure why the TV market never evolved like the mobile market. They even say that in North America we are far behind the European countries in terms of mobile networks and technology.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

cypherx said:


> But I thought that even if you bought one, you still have to return it if you canceled service? IE) Buying one isn't really buying one - ever since the lease model.


I believe if you actually buy one, you do own it and do not have to return it.

Someone posted a cost of $499 to own an HD DVR and $299 to own an HD Receiver. I don't know if those are accurate prices or not, but let's assume they are for the following discussion.

If I start a new or upgraded service with one HD DVR and three HD receivers (4 tv locations total), and have to pay full freight (lease or own), then my starting cost to lease is $496 and my starting cost to own is $1396.

If one month into my service I cancel, and I started out by leasing, my total cost would be $496 (up front cost to lease) plus $480 (full early termination fee), or a total of $976. If I were to purchase with no commitment my total cost would be $1396.

If I own the equipment, I could sell it to try and recover some of my cost. I would have to get $420 for the DVR and 3 receivers just to break even cost wise versus the lease model.

If I go six months, then cancel, my ETF would be $380 rather than $480, so I need to recover $320 selling my equipment. At this rate, it would take me all the way out to month 22 (out of 24) before I break even cost wise owning versus leasing.

So in reality, you are still better off with the lease model even if you want to/need to cancel before the 24 month contract is up (or 22 months of the 24 month contract). Your actual dollar risk for cancelling is less by leasing than by owning.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Well one could also argue that with AT&T wireless for example.

Cost with contract for an iPhone 5 16GB is $199.99 (lets just say $200).
Cost off contract for an iPhone 5 16GB is $649.99 (lets just say $650).

The difference here is either way you own the device (on or off contract). So even after paying an ETF to AT&T if you do not fullfill your contract... you can still use the iPhone 5 as an iPod touch, give it to someone else, sell it, etc...

If you pay the $200 and cancel at month 6... AT&T isn't going to ask for the phone back. They just take the ETF money. That is the difference here.


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

cypherx said:


> But I thought that even if you bought one, you still have to return it if you canceled service? IE) Buying one isn't really buying one - ever since the lease model.


If you own the receiver(s), they are not returned to D* when you end your service.



> Also with cell phones you get a choice. Iphone, Android, Windows Phone, cheap no frills flip phone, etc... With any TV provider your choices are very limited. There isn't a huge app marketplace. The performance of the set top box doesn't even come close to your smartphone (just look at how smooth the UI interacts on your smart phone).


You are comparing two completely different markets. D* manufactures it's own equipment(with the help of external companies) as apposed to cell phone providers selling you another manufacturer's product. Many different companies create smart phones to compete with one another. Also, the technology for smart phone is rapidly changing unlike television service which causes more devices to be created. Television is based on watching channels versus smart phones which are aimed at interactive applications with the device. I agree that receivers could have more features but that's not their intent as you can see the Game Lounge has now ended. Also, the churn on mobile devices is much higher than that of receivers which results in more products and lower prices.



> You maybe have 2 choices DirecTivo (which is crippled and not even close to Tivo's current Premier technology) or the DirecTV HD UI


You only have one primary choice with television receivers; you are watching television. They have other features but end result is deliverying programming.


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## wmb (Dec 18, 2008)

Beerstalker said:


> People forget the MSRP for the iPhone is really $600 for 16GB, $700 for 32GB and $800 for 64GB I believe. They think that the cost is the $200/300/400 that AT&T and Verizon charge for them. They want the phone for $200 and the service for $50, and that just isn't going to happen. If you want the phone for $200 be ready for $90/month service fees, if you want $50/month service then get ready to pay $600 for the phone.


WalMart/Straight Talk offers a "plan" where you get one of their credit cards, and pay $75 per month for two years without interest. The iPhone5 lists for ~$650 (same price as at the Apple store), and the plan costs $45 per month. They sell 3, 6 and 12 month plans at a discount - I think $450 for a 12 month plan.

The Straight Talk plan is unlimited voice/text/data.

The phone are not carrier locked.

Given the difference in phone price of $450, and the price difference per month (about $45 per month), the payback period is about 10 months.

Given the price structure, it would be hard to pass on this offer.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Right, but I still think the TV market could take a lesson from the mobile market. More equipment choice, more powerful multi-core ARM based set tops, more flexibility. You want a Microsoft mediaroom based platform? Fine. Google TV? Sure. TiVo Premiere Q with multi-room? check. Moxi crossbar style UI? Why not. DirecTV genie? You got it. Apple designed DVR? Yes!

Phones have standards. They are quad band or pentaband, 4G, LTE, SIM card for subscriber identification and security, etc. TV could have standardized more broadly but no one made it happen.

I love how we have so much choice in the mobile market. Heck there are even tweaks like alternate firmwares, jailbreaking and other huge communities devoted to getting the most of your device. It would be so cool if the same kind of thing existed in the TV world. THAT would make purchasing equipment really take off. Your android fanboys would pick their android based DVR, and the Apple fanboys salivate on upgrading to the newest Apple TV DVR every other year.

Some worry about support, like how would the provider support all of these different platforms? Nonsense... AT&T does it and 99% of the time user based support is through the manufacturer like Apple. I think they are just scared of becoming a "dumb pipe" and losing revenue to Google, Microsoft, TiVo, or Apple. Funny though, AT&T, Sprint and Verizon don't mind.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

cypherx said:


> Right, but I still think the TV market could take a lesson from the mobile market. More equipment choice, more powerful multi-core ARM based set tops, more flexibility. You want a Microsoft mediaroom based platform? Fine. Google TV? Sure. TiVo Premiere Q with multi-room? check. Moxi crossbar style UI? Why not. DirecTV genie? You got it. Apple designed DVR? Yes!
> 
> Phones have standards. They are quad band or pentaband, 4G, LTE, SIM card for subscriber identification and security, etc. TV could have standardized more broadly but no one made it happen.
> 
> ...


will need different tuners and cards.

At least you have cable cards and access cards for sat. The IP systems don't have cards like that.


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

JoeTheDragon said:


> will need different tuners and cards.
> 
> At least you have cable cards and access cards for sat. The IP systems don't have cards like that.


Well IP based TV could just use digital certificates and a combination of other authentication methods.


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

cypherx said:


> Right, but I still think the TV market could take a lesson from the mobile market. More equipment choice, more powerful multi-core ARM based set tops, more flexibility. You want a Microsoft mediaroom based platform? Fine. Google TV? Sure. TiVo Premiere Q with multi-room? check. Moxi crossbar style UI? Why not. DirecTV genie? You got it. Apple designed DVR? Yes!


Why? I use my receiver to reocord and watch my shows. I use my smart phone to do dozens of different tasks. What would be the cost and effort to offer these other devices and the special costs that come along with using said devices. There is a very limited market for your suggestion and I have a feeling no one would make any money.



> Phones have standards. They are *quad band or pentaband, 4G, LTE, SIM card *for subscriber identification and security, etc. TV could have standardized more broadly but no one made it happen.


Receivers have standards as well. They are single, dual or penta tuner. They are HD, DVR, HD DVR, and use access cards. Some people think a cell/smart phone should just be a phone and nothing else. On the other hand, some people think receivers should be much, much more than a device to show programming.



> I love how we have so much choice in the mobile market. Heck there are even tweaks like alternate firmwares, jailbreaking and other huge communities devoted to getting the most of your device.


The choices from the mobile market is based on who makes the phone and who markets the phone. How many companies use the Android platform? Not just one single company. This causes the firmware/software to be open-source so third parties can also create programs and applications for it. They actually rely(partly) on external sources. Google has even offered to buy out or higher outside sources that have created excellent programs for their OS. If D* was open-source, programming would be quickly stolen... again.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> I believe it is Leap Wireless/Cricket.
> 
> People forget the MSRP for the iPhone is really $600 for 16GB, $700 for 32GB and $800 for 64GB I believe. They think that the cost is the $200/300/400 that AT&T and Verizon charge for them. They want the phone for $200 and the service for $50, and that just isn't going to happen. If you want the phone for $200 be ready for $90/month service fees, if you want $50/month service then get ready to pay $600 for the phone.
> 
> As far as people complaining about the lease fees, you need to remember a lot of the time you don't end up paying them. The fees get waived for new customers, they get waived for all you people that call in and beg for a new receiver etc.


Virgin also -

http://newsroom.virginmobileusa.com/press-release/handsets/virgin-mobile-usa-offer-iphone-june-29

http://www.virginmobileusa.com/shop/cell-phones/

Only one price listed on their iphones, while not full retail, still not the 199.00 for 8gb phone, according to the financials, they are about 80 percent below the required total units sold by the contract agreement with Apple


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

wmb said:


> WalMart/Straight Talk offers a "plan" where you get one of their credit cards, and pay $75 per month for two years without interest. The iPhone5 lists for ~$650 (same price as at the Apple store), and the plan costs $45 per month. They sell 3, 6 and 12 month plans at a discount - I think $450 for a 12 month plan.
> 
> The Straight Talk plan is unlimited voice/text/data.
> 
> ...


Don;t know about you but for some people coming up with 650.00 just for the device would be kind of difficult


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

wmb said:


> WalMart/Straight Talk offers a "plan" where you get one of their credit cards, and pay $75 per month for two years without interest. The iPhone5 lists for ~$650 (same price as at the Apple store), and the plan costs $45 per month. They sell 3, 6 and 12 month plans at a discount - I think $450 for a 12 month plan.
> 
> The Straight Talk plan is unlimited voice/text/data.
> 
> ...


Even better, unlocked Nexus 4 16 GB for $350 + $30/month unlimited data & text + 1000 talk minutes from T-Mobile. No contract. That phone can be switched to another GSM provider at any time.

D* (and everyone else in the cable industry) intentionally sets their purchase prices sky high to make them cost prohibitive to buy. They need the tax write off that the depreciation of their boxes gives them. It also allows them to reduce the number of boxes they have to produce. You can't even buy the Genie, which is the box they are currently advertising.

Even the initial installation has a one-year contract with ETF to help reduce the cost of the dish and installation, which you are buying.

Two year commitments with ETFs don't scare me as long as things are working. The problem is when things aren't working. If you don't fight it, you're paying them an additional good chunk of money for their problems whether it's truck rolls, an ETF, or a monthly payment and learning to live with inferior service. If you fight it, it's a very long fight.


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## Brubear (Nov 14, 2008)

Mike Greer said:


> Not likely - DirecTV makes a killing on the receivers. If someone pays $200 for an HR24 and keeps it forever they make money. If someone pays $200 for an HR24 and cancels before their 2 year commitment DirecTV makes money and then gets to charge the next poor sap $200 for the same receiver. Bottom line - they make money.
> 
> If DirecTV sold you an HR24 for $300-$400 or even $500 and then allowed you to leave when you feel like it they are risking breaking even. They are not in the business of breaking even!


I don't where you are getting your numbers but they aren't accurate


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## iceturkee (Apr 1, 2007)

damondlt said:


> Where can you Buy them and How much Does HR24 cost?
> 
> You can But a Hopper for $350, so if Directv Charges more then that for an HR they are smoking crack!


dtv wanted to charge me $499 to buy my leased unit. instead, i bought an owned unit from someone at this website for subtantially less!


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

I'd love to see an all in one box that handles your DirecTV DVR, on demand, Roku 3 style apps, Apple TV style AirPlay, maybe play some games like Skyrim, Rock Band, Angry Birds, you don't know jack, family feud, etc... Play some BD disks, visit YouTube HD, listen to Pandora, Slacker, watch VEVO, Crackle, daily motion, search everything like google TV, share content with friends, surf Facebook, check into shows, etc.

An all in one box that's Genie+Roku3+xbox360+AppleTV+BluRay/DVD. One HDMI, one power cord, and one coax (network through DECA).

That would be something worth buying. Otherwise the lease model makes more sense since you have to pay a monthly fee per box anyway.

I also don't think open source or an app marketplace and dev kit would compromise the security. Linux and Firefox is open source but just for that reason doesn't mean your banking credentials are stolen to log into your banks https site. The decryption is secured anyway at a lower level and any software required for it would just be compiled, encrypted binary anyway. Make an apple like "walled garden" development toolkit and App Store and your good to go. If it gets "jailbroken" that doesn't mean free programming. So you might make the guide think you get a certain service, but the data will still be scrambled resulting in error.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

raott said:


> Insane prices.
> 
> 
> "goinsleeper" said:
> ...


I don't know about insane. They are Linux computers with memory, hard drives, etc.

What would an equivalent media center PC cost?

Mike


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## cypherx (Aug 27, 2010)

Mike Bertelson;3191717 said:


> I don't know about insane. They are Linux computers with memory, hard drives, etc.
> 
> What would an equivalent media center PC cost?
> 
> Mike


They are highly underpowered. Maybe 512MB ram if that even. Average slow Broadcom MIPS based SoC's generally only have a DMIPS of 1000-2000.

Wake me up when the BCM7445 is included in DTV set top. That would be worth purchasing. 21,000 DMIPS performance and the ability to decode UHDTV. That kind of performance would make today's UI glide and flow about and not feel so bottlenecked at times.

http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s732069


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## HinterXGames (Dec 20, 2012)

cypherx said:


> Right, but I still think the TV market could take a lesson from the mobile market. More equipment choice, more powerful multi-core ARM based set tops, more flexibility. You want a Microsoft mediaroom based platform? Fine. Google TV? Sure. TiVo Premiere Q with multi-room? check. Moxi crossbar style UI? Why not. DirecTV genie? You got it. Apple designed DVR? Yes!
> 
> Phones have standards. They are quad band or pentaband, 4G, LTE, SIM card for subscriber identification and security, etc. TV could have standardized more broadly but no one made it happen.
> 
> ...


DTV use to have recievers made by all different companies, Sony, Panasonic, etc. Now, they make only their own, which is understandable from the streamlining/buisness side, not to mention, as you stated, makes support much easier and more streamlined.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Brubear said:


> I don't where you are getting your numbers but they aren't accurate


Please enlighten us with the real numbers.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I don't know about insane. They are Linux computers with memory, hard drives, etc.
> 
> What would an equivalent media center PC cost?
> 
> Mike


Small hard drive, I'd bet a relatively low amount of memory. Hardly a media center PC.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

raott said:


> Small hard drive, I'd bet a relatively low amount of memory. Hardly a media center PC.


I didn't say it was or wasn't a media center PC.

I merely asked what an equivalent PC would cost.

Mike


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

cypherx said:


> I'd love to see an all in one box that handles your DirecTV DVR, on demand, Roku 3 style apps, Apple TV style AirPlay, maybe play some games like Skyrim, Rock Band, Angry Birds, you don't know jack, family feud, etc... Play some BD disks, visit YouTube HD, listen to Pandora, Slacker, watch VEVO, Crackle, daily motion, search everything like google TV, share content with friends, surf Facebook, check into shows, etc.


If we want to be more advanced, why not look at Samsung smart tv's that are RVU enabled. Why have a receiver that does everything when we could just push for a TV that does everything without an additional device?


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Sounds like Cypherx needs to read up on AllVid.

As far as SmarTV's go I am not a huge fan. Think of how fast DVRs, Media Streamers, Computers, etc. get outdated. These SmarTVs are going to be in the same boat in my opinion. In 2 or three years all these people that just bought SmarTVs are going to realize that they are outdated and their TV can no longer use the new apps they want to use, etc. So they either deal with it not having the features, or go buy a new TV.

Personally I like the idea of having an external box like the DirecTV DVRs, or my Apple TV, that I can replace easily every few years for much less money and keep enjoying my current TV.

But I guess I'm strange, I'm still using two big old rear projection CRT HDTVs in my theater room and living room, and I'm happy with them.


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

Beerstalker said:


> Personally I like the idea of having an external box like the DirecTV DVRs, or my Apple TV, that I can replace easily every few years for much less money and keep enjoying my current TV.


I agree with you here. I use my network to watch what I want that isn't a part of my D*. I used the receivers to watch and record. I don't use any of the applications as my network already supports what they can do and more. I would rather have a very clear picture from the tv and use other devices to regulate my other wants/needs.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

goinsleeper said:


> I believe the non-return fee for the HD DVR is $250.


Guess again.


DIRECTV ELA said:


> If we haven't received your leased equipment within 21 days of termination of your base level of programming, or if the equipment is returned in damaged condition, we will charge you $45 for each standard Receiver, $135 for each DVR, $100 for each HD Receiver, $200 for each HD DVR, $250 for each Advanced Whole-Home DVR (aka "Genie HD DVR") and $100 for each Client, so please promptly attend to your equipment return.


The $100 fee for the non-return of a Genie mini seems like a pretty severe lashing.

Then again, I would imagine that DIRECTV is losing interest in the devices that aren't part of the client-server model.


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

harsh said:


> Guess again.


Ok, my bad for being $50 higher than my memory served me? You win.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

I just bought a HR24-200 owned for $250 on eBay, I was hopeful in getting the new genie but I couldn't stand the slow HR22 anymore, I was really close to throwing it out the window and bashing the heck outta it. I was trying to get the price lower but the seller wouldn't budge since its owned. come to think of it I might still wait for the HR44 and deactivate the owned box.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

goinsleeper said:


> Ok, my bad for being $50 higher than my memory served me? You win.


A symptom of a much larger problem in these forums: a decided lack of familiarity with the applicable DIRECTV policies.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

damondlt said:


> You can But a Hopper for $350, so if Directv Charges more then that for an HR they are smoking crack!


DIRECTV does Not Smoke Crack!!! :nono2:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

acostapimps said:


> I just bought a HR24-200 owned for $250 on eBay, I was hopeful in getting the new genie but I couldn't stand the slow HR22 anymore, I was really close to throwing it out the window and bashing the heck outta it. I was trying to get the price lower but the seller wouldn't budge since its owned. come to think of it I might still wait for the HR44 and deactivate the owned box.


Have you checked with Directv's Access Card Dept. to ensure that the HR24 is indeed registered as Owned???


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

Richierich said:


> Have you checked with Directv's Access Card Dept. to ensure that the HR24 is indeed registered as Owned???


Yes everything checked out fine when I called ACD, it's indeed owned with no balance due or tied to an account.


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## dmgreene3263 (Nov 11, 2011)

There are always ways around the 24 month commitment, if you cancel your service because you are no longer able to get DTV (moving to an apartment, Canada etc) there are cannot enforce the contract. Alternatively, it is quite an incentive to get a free install, free receivers, and a discounted package to sign up, I think it is worth the 24 months


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## goinsleeper (May 23, 2012)

dmgreene3263 said:


> There are always ways around the 24 month commitment, if you cancel your service because you are no longer able to get DTV (moving to an apartment, Canada etc) there are cannot enforce the contract.


Indeed they can enforce it. If you are trying to get installed in a location and the technician can't get line of sight, the contract is void because D* could not offer the service there. Moving out of the country is not the fault of the provider and the contract stands. Only other ways for the contract to be void are military deployment or an account holder's death. There have been other accounts closed with no cancellation fees under specific situations but those are handled case by case.


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## gigahurtz (Mar 15, 2013)

I personally don't feel the up front costs are that low right now as it is for most -- paying $200+ for a receiver even after signing a two year contract.

The satellite and cell phone industry differ because (as far as I know) you wouldn't be able to use these receivers with other providers as you can with unlocked cell phones.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

gigahurtz said:


> I personally don't feel the up front costs are that low right now as it is for most -- paying $200+ for a receiver even after signing a two year contract.


Most don't have to pay those up front fees (unless they aren't eligible as "new" customers).


> The satellite and cell phone industry differ because (as far as I know) you wouldn't be able to use these receivers with other providers as you can with unlocked cell phones.


Most of the low-priced wireless phones are NOT unlocked though. That privilege will cost you another $200-300 dollars up front per phone for one of the top-line phones.


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