# Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 on DirecTV?



## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

I am interested to know if there is any technical reason why Dolby Digital Plus cannot be implemented on DirecTV. Thanks to posts from Darin C and HD AV, I have learned that Dolby Digital Plus is an enhanced version that can offer up to 7.1 channels with improved sound quality. According to the Dolby.com web site, DD+ can offer its full 8 channel potential via the most basic form of HDMI (the 1.3 version is not required). Therefore existing DirecTV receivers would not require a hardware upgrade. Could this audio enhancement be installed via a firmware or software upgrade? I understand Dolby Digital Plus requires a higher bit rate for transmission, but it is backward compatible with the more basic 5.1 audio. That means customers with earlier AV receivers will still enjoy basic 5.1 surround from a Dolby Digital Plus broadcast.

I believe the number of movies with 7.1 audio is on the increase. The following link to Blu-raystats.com can be filtered to show a full list of movies with 7.1 audio.

http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php

DirecTV has recently shown movies like Hairspray, which is available on Blu-ray disc with DTS 7.1 audio. Could such a movie be broadcast on DirecTV in 7.1 with the use of Dolby Digital Plus? There is also an increasing number of AV receivers that are 7.1 ready, and these are getting more affordable with each new model.

Are there any experts who know the answers? Are there any DirecTV engineers or decision makers reading this thread? If DD+ has already been discussed, would you share with dbstalk members?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Nobody broadcasts in anything greater then 5.1.
DirecTV receivers can't decode anything greater then 5.1

So while technically they could pass along 7.1 in the broadcast stream nobody actually broadcasts that and even if they did none of the receivers could send anything beyond 5.1 anyway.


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## bjdraw (Jan 25, 2007)

Some of the newer Moto cable STBs support DD+ so it wouldn't be to much of a stretch for DirecTV boxes to do it. As for those without DD+ receivers, it would work the same way as the Vudu box does and Blu-ray players do, the STB would have to transcode to DD or decode internally and use analog outputs.

So the real question is could the codec be added to the current DirecTV STBs, I wouldn't be surprised either way.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> Nobody broadcasts in anything greater then 5.1.
> 
> DirecTV receivers can't decode anything greater then 5.1
> 
> So while technically they could pass along 7.1 in the broadcast stream nobody actually broadcasts that and even if they did none of the receivers could send anything beyond 5.1 anyway.


I already knew nobody was broadcasting anything greater than 5.1 and I already know the receivers don't presently decode anything greater than 5.1. The purpose of my post is to encourage conversation on what enhancements are possible.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Most broadcasters are barely getting DD right, lets not muck it up anymore right now..are the newer audio codecs being used for BD and HDDVD even in the broadcast spec?


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

I am in favor of 7.1..........


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I see no need. Just put your receiver on ProLogic IIx and you're good to go.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

It appears the current boxes could decode DD Plus if material is available. I would guess it would be on-demand type material though - as pointed out above it isn't really being broadcasted. I think Europe might be playing around with 5.1+ channels, so there is a chance it could happen here (maybe on premium movie channels ?)

Anyway the question is "if there is any technical reason why Dolby Digital Plus cannot be implemented on DirecTV" - and it certainly appears it is a possibility.

BCM7401 Product Brief

While it is spec'd that the BCM7401 is only HDMI 1.1 all versions of HDMI can carry 8 channels of 24 bit PCM audio at 192kHz - if you let the box do the decoding - or presumably the DD Plus could be sent to an A/V receiver.

BCM7411 Product Brief

The BCM7411 brief is not so clear. It appears it can decode DD Plus - but it is not a 'single chip' solution so there may be other factors involved. If I had to guess - it can probably pass the signal to an A/V receiver and probably can pass decoded PCM on HDMI also.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

It is unlikely the HDMI transmitter in the D* boxes can send DD+ over HDMI. It is likely one of the model HDMI transmitters that can only send the same kind of audio over HDMI that it can send over S/PDIF (optical). And DD+ 7.1 cannot be sent over S/PDIF.

The Xbox 360 has the same issue due to the HDMI transmitter used and the hardware design.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

bhelton71 said:


> It appears the current boxes could decode DD Plus if material is available. I would guess it would be on-demand type material though - as pointed out above it isn't really being broadcasted. I think Europe might be playing around with 5.1+ channels, so there is a chance it could happen here (maybe on premium movie channels ?)
> 
> Anyway the question is "if there is any technical reason why Dolby Digital Plus cannot be implemented on DirecTV" - and it certainly appears it is a possibility.
> 
> ...


The 7401 may be able to process DD Plus, IIRC to a max of 13.1, but are the rest of the components built to handle the full capability of the chip?

I'm pretty sure my whole house is not big enough for 13.1 but I could see using 7.1. 

Hmmm....:scratchin

Something to think about.

Mike


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

The other issue is bandwidth. Bandwidth is already tight and utitized to the max possible amount. DD+ and the other newer "HD Audio" formats use a lot more bandwidth than DD 5.1. This isn't a problem with local Blu-Ray playback, but it's a big, big deal when trying to squeeze transmissions onto a transponder on a satellite.

IMO, bandwidth is the reason why we aren't likely to see anything beyond DD anytime soon.

Besides, I'd bet that the number of DirecTV subscribers with a properly functioning DD 5.1 audio system is under 1%, and 5.1 has been around for more than a decade. The number with a 7.1 system is probably in the hundreds or low thousands, a tiny fraction of the subscriber base.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

IIP said:


> Besides, I'd bet that the number of DirecTV subscribers with a properly functioning DD 5.1 audio system is under 1%, and 5.1 has been around for more than a decade. The number with a 7.1 system is probably in the hundreds or low thousands, a tiny fraction of the subscriber base.


LOL. It's probably higher then 1% but you're not far off. I'm surprised anytime I go to a friends house and see this big screen HDTV and all the fixens....hooked thru some old stereo system. And they are all proud..."listen this this!!" Yea, sounds great thru those 2 spearkers you got there bud.  I don't have the heart to clue them in.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

While I know what you mean, I have run into a lot more terrible-sounding speakers with HTIB 5.1 systems than with 2-speaker stereos. Most HTIB speakers are tiny, and sound squaky and harsh. Naturally, most folks have the bass module cranked up and are impressed by that, and pay little attention to the little speakers.

In my years doing HSP work, I only went to 4 houses that had a "real" surround setup. When done right, it can be fantastic, but most of the time... :eek2:

Oh, and by "properly functioning", I meant "being fed a DD feed". The vast majority of HTIB setups I see are connected via a pair of analog RCAs. I make a point to explain that they need a digital connection (optical/TOSlink on most equipment) to get the DD5.1 surround track to the HT, but most folks ignore me, or just don't understand. Even the ones that already have an optical connection, the guys that I hope know what they are doing, usually disappoint me and turn out to be clueless. It's great to run into the folks who really DO know what HT is all about, except I always end up wasting 30 mins or more talking to them about their HT...


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

IIP said:


> While I know what you mean, I have run into a lot more terrible-sounding speakers with HTIB 5.1 systems than with 2-speaker stereos. Most HTIB speakers are tiny, and sound squaky and harsh. Naturally, most folks have the bass module cranked up and are impressed by that, and pay little attention to the little speakers.
> 
> In my years doing HSP work, I only went to 4 houses that had a "real" surround setup. When done right, it can be fantastic, but most of the time... :eek2:
> 
> Oh, and by "properly functioning", I meant "being fed a DD feed". The vast majority of HTIB setups I see are connected via a pair of analog RCAs. I make a point to explain that they need a digital connection (optical/TOSlink on most equipment) to get the DD5.1 surround track to the HT, but most folks ignore me, or just don't understand. Even the ones that already have an optical connection, the guys that I hope know what they are doing, usually disappoint me and turn out to be clueless. It's great to run into the folks who really DO know what HT is all about, except I always end up wasting 30 mins or more talking to them about their HT...


I am sure you guys are absolutely right. I have an accountant friend whose D* box is connected to his Sony 5.1 amp via a pair of RCA phonos. He insists he gets surround effects already, because the amp shows 'Pro Logic'. It doesn't help that you can pay up to $110 for a optical audio cable at Best Buy (I just looked in their web site). In store demo TVs and 5.1 set ups are often connected by 2 channel RCA and the yellow composite video. I once tried to explain the importance of higher quality to staff at my local BJ's, but I was wasting my breath.

Another friend who is an RF engineer, has tiny 5.1 speakers from Radio Shack, connected by bell wire. He has a big smile on his face when he demonstrates his 'home theater system'.

So it seems very few people care about 7.1 audio. Being the original poster of this thread, I am surprised at the number of negative responses (including my own!!!) but I am not discouraged. Like most high end applications, 7.1 audio will not be embraced by the masses. However, I read the attachments from Bhelton71 and I understand one or more current D* receivers have this Broadcom chip that is already capable of DD+ and therefore 7.1 channel audio. Just thinking out loud, but what if the movie comes from the distributor with the original 7.1 channel sound track as an option? Perhaps it could be broadcast intact and the few DD+ 7.1 customers could enjoy the full monty. I wonder if this could be done with relatively small additional cost to DirecTV. I suppose a movie in DTS-HD Master Audio 24 bit 7.1 would have to be watered down to fit on the less capable DD+ 7.1 track, but it would still sound better than basic 5.1.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the boffins at DirecTV will look into the possibility of implementing Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 very soon.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

The Scotsman said:


> I am sure you guys are absolutely right. I have an accountant friend whose D* box is connected to his Sony 5.1 amp via a pair of RCA phonos. He insists he gets surround effects already, because the amp shows 'Pro Logic'. It doesn't help that you can pay up to $110 for a optical audio cable at Best Buy (I just looked in their web site). In store demo TVs and 5.1 set ups are often connected by 2 channel RCA and the yellow composite video. I once tried to explain the importance of higher quality to staff at my local BJ's, but I was wasting my breath.
> 
> Another friend who is an RF engineer, has tiny 5.1 speakers from Radio Shack, connected by bell wire. He has a big smile on his face when he demonstrates his 'home theater system'.
> 
> ...


I think the lesson many have learned with the recent Tivo and 1080p news from DirecTV is never say never. Anything's possible in the future so don't give up hope yet.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

IIP said:


> The other issue is bandwidth. Bandwidth is already tight and utitized to the max possible amount. DD+ and the other newer "HD Audio" formats use a lot more bandwidth than DD 5.1.


Dolby claims that DD+ is more efficient than DD. They say it can do 5.1 in 200kbps. Just because DD+ is capable of huge bitrates doesn't mean it has to be encoded at the max.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

DarinC said:


> Dolby claims that DD+ is more efficient than DD. They say it can do 5.1 in 200kbps. Just because DD+ is capable of huge bitrates doesn't mean it has to be encoded at the max.


Darin, I have just read through a Dolby Digital Plus White Paper from Dolby.com, which supports what you say. On page 7 of the 12 page document, there is a paragraph called 'Unique aspects of Dolby Digital Plus in broadcast formats'. It goes on to say that there new coding tools to enable DD Plus bitstreams that are roughly half the size of basic DD 5.1 bitsreams. If the basic 5.1 is broadcast at 384 Kbps, then you are right on the money with your 200 Kbps number.
That fact alone could remove a major stumbling block in the area of bandwidth constraints.:sure:

Just to pour some cold water on this, the same 12 page White Paper has a table on page 9 that says Dolby Digital Plus *bitstream* requires HDMI 1.3 version. If that is the case, then we are screwed until DirecTV releases new receivers with HDMI 1.3.  Since the document was written in 2005, is there any possibility that something has changed? Could DD+ be possible on the existing HDMI 1.1 on current DirecTV receivers? If the answer is no, then possibly the DirecTV set top box could transcode the DD+ 7.1 bitstream to LPCM 7.1, which could indeed be carried by HDMI 1.1.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> The 7401 may be able to process DD Plus, IIRC to a max of 13.1, but are the rest of the components built to handle the full capability of the chip?
> 
> I'm pretty sure my whole house is not big enough for 13.1 but I could see using 7.1.
> 
> ...


Damn! Guess I'll put back this 13.1 technology I've been working on.


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## flipptyfloppity (Aug 20, 2007)

Just because DD+ can do 5.1 in 200kbps doesn't mean you want to listen to it. It may sound better than DD at 200kbps, but it can't necessarily work miracles.

It's baffling to me that Dolby has released two new compressions (TrueHD and DD+) and DTS has released at least 2 (Neo6,DTS-HD,DTS-HD MA) in the last two years or so. I'm over all these standards, I'm very ready to go to just PCM out, like we have for two channel. That's how PS3 does its multichannel audio out from BluRay over HDMI (it internally decodes all the formats to PCM, requires HDMI 1.1a or later), it's also how D* boxes have treated 2-channel audio all along over S/PDIF. And this is what everyone should go to. Then every company can have their own proprietary codec on their system without customers having to replace their receiver/amplifier to use it.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Just because DD+ can do 5.1 in 200kbps doesn't mean you want to listen to it. It may sound better than DD at 200kbps, but it can't necessarily work miracles.
> 
> It's baffling to me that Dolby has released two new compressions (TrueHD and DD+) and DTS has released at least 2 (Neo6,DTS-HD,DTS-HD MA) in the last two years or so. I'm over all these standards, I'm very ready to go to just PCM out, like we have for two channel. That's how PS3 does its multichannel audio out from BluRay over HDMI (it internally decodes all the formats to PCM, requires HDMI 1.1a or later), it's also how D* boxes have treated 2-channel audio all along over S/PDIF. And this is what everyone should go to. Then every company can have their own proprietary codec on their system without customers having to replace their receiver/amplifier to use it.


Attention DirecTV - please read this entire thread and speak to your contact at Dolby Laboratories. Your audio technology already works wonders, but we want more. Dolby Digital Plus with 7.1 channels could be your next big thing and it will put you streets ahead of your competitors.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

The Scotsman said:


> Attention DirecTV - please read this entire thread and speak to your contact at Dolby Laboratories. Your audio technology already works wonders, but we want more. Dolby Digital Plus with 7.1 channels could be your next big thing and it will put you streets ahead of your competitors.


The channels them self have to be 7.1 for that to be a good Idea.


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## todbnla (Aug 2, 2008)

While my last HT was setup in 7.1 and I like it better, it appears the "norm" is 5.1, even the blu ray situation is out of sync, most of my blu ray movies have some other software other than Dolby so my 7.1 won't work correctly, DTS ES perhaps, it seems like too many formats, we just need to consolidate to one standard version of 5.1 which is superior, IMHO. I was one of the few people that had a 6.1 receiver when a company called "Outlaw" made one...its like a relic in just a few short years,


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

todbnla said:


> While my last HT was setup in 7.1 and I like it better, it appears the "norm" is 5.1, even the blu ray situation is out of sync, most of my blu ray movies have some other software other than Dolby so my 7.1 won't work correctly, DTS ES perhaps, it seems like too many formats, we just need to consolidate to one standard version of 5.1 which is superior, IMHO. I was one of the few people that had a 6.1 receiver when a company called "Outlaw" made one...its like a relic in just a few short years,


To Joe the Dragon - yes, you're right. It would have to be a true 7.1 channel source before DD+ 7.1 would work at its best. However remember DD Plus can also carry a 5.1 movie and in that case, there will only be 5.1 channels broadcast. DD Plus doesn't just carry 7.1 channels.

To Todd - unfortunately I agree with you too. To the majority of ordinary people, there are too many audio formats and even an enthusiast would need to study to keep up with everything. I'm not an expert, but I believe DTS ES is a method of getting a 'matrixed' 6.1 or 7.1 effect from a 5.1 source. (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong!) Dolby has their version of the same trick. Then there were a few experiments in the last ten years, where 6.1 formats were applied to standard DVD releases. The fact that this was done by both Dolby and their competitor DTS, just adds to the number of different acronyms we have to remember.

Then we have the newer HD audio formats to think about. Both Dolby and DTS obviously have their legacy 5.1 format. Then, each company has TWO levels of HD audio above that. For both companies, there is a lossy HD format AND THEN there is a *lossless* format for each company. So, I wouldn't blame Todd or anyone else for saying there are too many formats.

To add to the confusion, not all of these formats are mandatory in Blu-ray disc players. It is up to the manufacturer, whether or not to include on-board decoding for DTS-HD or DD Plus, for example. With that uncertainty, I suspect many users will opt for a simple connection that produces sound from their 5.1 speaker system. But for the majority of DirecTV customers, the application of Dolby Digital Plus could even simplify and shorten the list of choices. The listener could enjoy whatever is broadcast, so long as their sound system is set up correctly in the first place.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

flipptyfloppity said:


> Just because DD+ can do 5.1 in 200kbps doesn't mean you want to listen to it. It may sound better than DD at 200kbps, but it can't necessarily work miracles.


The point wasn't that they should use 200kbps, the point was simply that bandwidth would not be the issue preventing DirecTV from using DD+. Dolby claims DD+ compression is much more efficient than legacy DD, and 200kbps is a number they use to demonstrate that. Obviously, you can use more than that, and according to Dolby, comparing DD to DD+, the latter should have better quality at the same bitrate.

BUT....



The Scotsman said:


> Attention DirecTV - please read this entire thread and speak to your contact at Dolby Laboratories. Your audio technology already works wonders, but we want more. Dolby Digital Plus with 7.1 channels could be your next big thing and it will put you streets ahead of your competitors.


The thing we have to keep in mind here is, we don't know how much of the current STBs (if any of them) are capable of being upgraded for DD+. I certainly wouldn't expect a big hardware swapout just to go from DD to DD+, and I wouldn't expect them to waste the bandwidth to send both formats simultaneously. And since there's no way to get full DD+ _out_ of the HR2x (they aren't HDMI 1.3, and they don't have multichannel analog outs), even *if *they could do DD+, they'd still have to transcode it down to legacy DD. Not a lot of benefit there for the effort.



The Scotsman said:


> It's baffling to me that Dolby has released two new compressions (TrueHD and DD+) and DTS has released at least 2 (Neo6,DTS-HD,DTS-HD MA) in the last two years or so. I'm over all these standards, I'm very ready to go to just PCM out, like we have for two channel. That's how PS3 does its multichannel audio out from BluRay over HDMI (it internally decodes all the formats to PCM, requires HDMI 1.1a or later), it's also how D* boxes have treated 2-channel audio all along over S/PDIF. And this is what everyone should go to. Then every company can have their own proprietary codec on their system without customers having to replace their receiver/amplifier to use it.


Well, in some ways, you're comparing apples to oranges. Just because you're getting PCM out from your PS3 doesn't necessarily mean the soundtrack on the blu-ray was lossless PCM. It could have been DD+, TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc. So the codecs still have a need to exist, because the bandwidth savings they provide is valuable (less so for Blu-ray, but still valuable). Of course, Dolby and DTS are somewhat redundant, but they are two different companies, so what are you going to do? If you are strictly commenting on the format coming of the box, as opposed to what's encoded into the stream, then sure... you could go all PCM if all the hardware supports that. But right now, it doesn't. That's why they all pretty much transcode down to analog L/R and legacy DD. THOSE are much more of a common denominator than multichannel PCM. The PS3 is a MUCH more powerful box than the HR2x. They can upgrade it to do a lot of things in software the HR2x will never be able to handle. But even the PS3 is hardware limited from doing TrueHD and DTS-MA via bitstream. And once you have a large installed base of hardware (like DirecTV), making changes on the content side become very difficult (or rather, expensive).


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Audio is passed through and not decoded by the STB, right? The bottleneck lies with the HDMI output.

Let's see if we can't get much more content in DD5.1 before we start clamoring for DD7.1.


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## HD AV (Nov 22, 2006)

DD+ can be carried by Optical or coaxial outputs to legacy AVRs and the DD core decoded with a greater degree of fidelity at the same bit rate. However, 7.1 DD+ requires Multichannel PCM and an AVR that will decode that, or HDMI 1.1 at the source and HDMI 1.3 for the AVR if decoding Multichannel PCM. Direct could transmit DD+ at the current bitrates (same as DD) and we would notice an improvement in sound quality but would still be limited to 5.1 channels. Extraction of the DD "core" would occur just as it does now in the H series and the extra 2.1 would be ignored by legacy equipment. I don't know if the H series chip is capable of passing bitstream, but if it is, it would require HDMI 1.3 which the older H series do not have. If the chip can transcode DD+ to Multichannel PCM, then it could be passed to those AVRs that accept MPCM via. HDMI 1.1 and above. I have heard the difference between DD and DD+ at the same bit rates at a demo and there is a noticeable difference in separation and sound quality, even in just the core 5.1. It would be nice if Direct would use the +standard for movies that were mastered in DD+. DTS is not an issue as it is not an ATSC standard and most all movies (not DVDs) are mastered in one each of the codecs from Dolby, DTS, and SDDS (Sony Dynamic Digital Sound) so the broadcaster uses the DD to conform to standard. I would like to see the DD+ utilized as it is part of the ATSC standards, backward compatible, provides better 5.1 sound, and potentially would permit those with receivers that could decode it with 7.1 sound.........And yes, it would, once again, make Direct the innovating leader in services.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

HD AV said:


> DD+ can be carried by Optical or coaxial outputs to legacy AVRs and the DD core decoded with a greater degree of fidelity at the same bit rate.


What I've not been clear on is what, if anything, needs to be done to the receiving equipment for this to happen. I know the DD core can be transmitted over legacy digital connections, but I would assume that would first have to be broken out? It certainly would on high bandwidth DD+, since DD+ is capable of higher bitrates than legacy connections can handle. But assuming the bitrate is low enough, can a legacy DD decoder take DD+, and it only "sees" the core? If so, then using it would seem a no brainer. But if not, and the core has to be first extracted out, I would think the feasability would depend on whether or not existing equipment could be upgraded to do that.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

I was just reading my posts from three years ago about this enhancement of DD audio. I see there is a report on the new HR34 receiver from DirecTV and I couldn't help but notice the Dolby Digital Plus logo on the front.

Good things come to those who wait!!


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## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

"The Scotsman" said:


> I was just reading my posts from three years ago about this enhancement of DD audio. I see there is a report on the new HR34 receiver from DirecTV and I couldn't help but notice the Dolby Digital Plus logo on the front.
> 
> Good things come to those who wait!!


I think the DirecTV Cinema 1080P programs will be the only Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 capable selections.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

I don't really see the point for 7.1. Personally, I'd rather have 5.1 and save the extra bandwidth for improving the compression ratio on the video. Reason I don't see the need for 7.1 has already been stated in this thread. What percentage of people out there have proper 7.1 systems? Hell, most people don't even have proper 5.1 systems!!

Example #1: my dad who claims to have an awesome ear set up 5.1 at his house... a few years later I got a nice AVR and got a radio shack SPL meter to calibrate it. I brought the SPL meter over to my dads house and apperently his "awesome ear" hadn't noticed for 2 yrs that the system was completely misbalanced and one of his rears was out *completely*.

Example #2: my sisters husband set up 5.1 in their apartment using 5 tiny radio shack jobs and a subwoofer. All 5 speakers are aimed in different directions . he is kind of a ****** and would just argue that its right how it is, so I didn't bother pointing it out. Just kept quiet.

All most people care about is a big clear picture. Some people don't even care about that. Was watching TV at a girls house and she had her TV set up in stretch mode. Obviously didn't say anything there either .


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## mjwagner (Oct 8, 2005)

For those of us who have invested in high end home theater setups, including the ability to decode and correctly reproduce the current high-end audio codecs (DD 7.1 and others like DTS-HD) any improvement over what DirecTV uses for it's 1080P PPV audio would be welcome!


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

DarinC said:


> The point wasn't that they should use 200kbps, the point was simply that bandwidth would not be the issue preventing DirecTV from using DD+. Dolby claims DD+ compression is much more efficient than legacy DD, and 200kbps is a number they use to demonstrate that. Obviously, you can use more than that, and according to Dolby, comparing DD to DD+, the latter should have better quality at the same bitrate.
> 
> BUT....
> 
> ...


Dolby and DTS are redundant how? DTS has far higher bit rates than the "comparable" Dolby offering. It's low res rate exceeds Dolby's high res one.

Also the term "lossless" is marketing at it's finest as it is just 44k PCM! It is not direct stream digital. It is sampled, there is loss.

Further Dolby TRUE HD reduces the dialog volumes so the user increases the volume creating a huge soundscape when all speaker audio is engaged.

Not meaning to come out harsh sounding here but the real issue is the manufacturers do not standardize on the full consumer spectrum on their product lines and people trying to shave a buck her and there end up with equipment that has to be understood because it doesn't do "X" and for the most part most consumers don't understand "X" and really shouldn't have to. They should just be able to plug it in (properly) and have it all work. (talk about a run on sentence)

Dolby has a lions share of the market based on track record and being the first to market but DTS has higher resolution offerings. I would vote to adopt it and toss the Dolby offerings but most others would not.

Someone earlier asked about DTS ES and unlike Dolby's EX which is matrixed, (EX source material has a flag to indicate to the decoder that there is a "sixth" channel imbedded in the 5,1 signal and it is matrixed out). DTS-ES can be matrixed OR an actual 6th channel depending on the source material.

But to get back to the main topic should DTV offer the 7.1 Plus? Would it be nice? Sure, but there is little material in that format, broadcasters use the standard 5.1 format so it would require conversion by D* and there are downline HDMI spec issues for something a small handful of subscribers could benefit from.

Moving audio decoding to the receivers would use processor and memory space so we'd lose other functionality likely.

In the end, we've been set down a path by manufacturers and market acceptance and not by how good something is. Add to this that the modern consumer is after the fast food (net availabilty, video on demand, play on iPhone, etc) and that HD factor is even less important.

I just hope the HD audio and BlueRay specs remain constant for awhile.

Don "run on sentences are me today" Bolton


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

mjwagner said:


> For those of us who have invested in high end home theater setups, including the ability to decode and correctly reproduce the current high-end audio codecs (DD 7.1 and others like DTS-HD) any improvement over what DirecTV uses for it's 1080P PPV audio would be welcome!


Sure, but wouldn't 5.1 + better video be even more welcome? That'd be bigger bang for the buck I think.


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

bjdraw said:


> Some of the newer Moto cable STBs support DD+ so it wouldn't be to much of a stretch for DirecTV boxes to do it. As for those without DD+ receivers, it would work the same way as the Vudu box does and Blu-ray players do, the STB would have to transcode to DD or decode internally and use analog outputs.
> 
> So the real question is could the codec be added to the current DirecTV STBs, I wouldn't be surprised either way.


Sure, anything is possible, but that is a complete new design, with validatoin cycle. After that they would have to crank up a completely new manufacturing line.

Remeber, DTV is about broadcasting content that itis suppliers provide. If a majority of its providers do not distribute DD7.1, then it probably won't happen. There has to be an economic incentive to invest in a new DVR


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Blurayfan said:


> I think the DirecTV Cinema 1080P programs will be the only Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 capable selections.


I think so, too -- at best. Did you all read bonscott87's post #2 in this thread? There's no 7.1 coming over conventional HD TV signals, as yet. DD, according to the spec, could process 7.1 TV sound, if there were any. But there isn't.

But if you've got the right AV receiver and enough speakers, you can perfectly well have 7.1, 9.1, 9.2 sound, with the extra channels beyond 5.1 synthesized by the AVR. Presumably, native, discrete 9.2 sound, coming directly from the source would be better, but I've never heard that, so I don't really know how it would sound. However, I do have synthetic 9.2 sound, with an extra two front height channels, two front wide channels, and two separately tunable subwoofer channels, created from the 5.1 source supplied by the DirecTV receiver to my Onkyo AVR. It sounds pretty good, I think.


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## awblackmon (May 20, 2009)

I have turned Dolby Digital output off on my Directv receiver. I then use Logic 7 or DTS Neo 6 on my AV receiver to decode the soundtrack. Works well for me. I have also found that there are times that lead me to believe that whoever works on the mix for soundtracks may be doing some pretty cool stuff on the matrix tracks that are embedded in the front channels of Dolby digital tracks. When I A B the tracks I often find the matrix tracks are richer in surround than the Dolby digital track. And yes, all my levels are set individually for Digital and matrix surround modes so that they are not going to have levels to high for one and not the other. I have just found that sometimes the matrix surround often has things going on that I cannot hear compared to the digital tracks. I discovered this during broadcasts of Stargate Universe. Matrix decoding was richer in the surrounds compared to Digital.


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## syclonedave (Aug 18, 2007)

7.1 is a manufacture's way of saying their unit has more channels THAT DON'T EXIST. And hoping all the clods that think it's real will fall for it & just burn more $$$. 

As somewhat stated above the only surround material out there more than 5.1 is Dolby EX, a matrixed 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel. Or DTS ES which is a discrete 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel.

Only very few movies & probaly no TV series have been mixed in these formats.

Cost & practicallity.

If they are mixed that way it states it on the box.

So all the bla-bla re: if it can be broadcast / received is fine, but pointless.

Kind of like, can I receive IMAX, 60FPS, 4K, etc. shows at home.

Even if we could, no one's producing that animal.

True- 7.1 DOESN'T EXIST.


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## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

"syclonedave" said:


> 7.1 is a manufacture's way of saying their unit has more channels THAT DON'T EXIST. And hoping all the clods that think it's real will fall for it & just burn more $$$.
> 
> As somewhat stated above the only surround material out there more than 5.1 is Dolby EX, a matrixed 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel. Or DTS ES which is a discrete 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel.
> 
> ...


The Blu-ray release of the Jurassic Park trilogy states the films have been encoded with DTS HD Master Audio 7.1.


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## Ken984 (Jan 1, 2006)

3:10 to Yuma is DTS-MA 7.1 and sounds great. There is material, just not a lot of it.


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## awblackmon (May 20, 2009)

Now from what I understand, 7.1 isn't different from 5.1 unless you don't have a system to decode the matrixed extra two channels embedded in the back surround channels. 7.1 is there in the soundtrack if it was originally encoded. It isn't directv not sending it. I find there isn't a lot of 7.1 soundtracks out there anyway.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I have a bunch of DVD/Blu Ray discs. I think I may only have one or two with 7.1.


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## kovach (Feb 22, 2010)

Getting rid of my old ProLogic receiver.

Just bought and Onkyo 609. Haven't hooked it up yet. There's so many freakin' options I don't know what the best one to set it to. Any suggestions??

I understand the optimal hookups...


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Hook it up, 90% of the settings set on default will be correct, it will just do its job.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

syclonedave said:


> 7.1 is a manufacture's way of saying their unit has more channels THAT DON'T EXIST. And hoping all the clods that think it's real will fall for it & just burn more $$$.
> 
> As somewhat stated above the only surround material out there more than 5.1 is Dolby EX, a matrixed 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel. Or DTS ES which is a discrete 6th CENTER ONLY surround channel.
> 
> ...


Dave

Have a look in www.blu-raystats.com and filter it for 7.1 audio format. I just checked and there are 283 Blu-ray titles listed. These are not matrixed or whatever. These are genuine 7.1 and they are made up of DTS, Dolby and LPCM. I completely understand objections from forum members who say there isn't much in 7.1 audio. Relatively speaking, you are correct. However the DD Plus allows for seemless broadcast of 7.1 audio for those who have the hardware and the necessary number of speakers. For someone who has a 5.1 system or less, the Dolby Digital system is able to produce an audio stream to suit those systems. The DD 5.1 listener won't even know (or care) that 7.1 audio stream is also being carried. Incidentally, I bought 3:10 to Yuma from Walmart yesterday for $8. As mentioned by another member earlier in this thread, that title is in 7.1 audio.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Of course DD7.1 exists, but it doesnt exist in broadcast, and even at a whopping 238 titles, its still just a miniscule drop in the bucket compared to the current catalog of available titles that don't have it.


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## The Scotsman (Sep 1, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> Of course DD7.1 exists, but it doesnt exist in broadcast, and even at a whopping 238 titles, its still just a miniscule drop in the bucket compared to the current catalog of available titles that don't have it.


It is because of sarcastic, uninformed and argumentative responses from idiots like you Mr. Carncross and from others, that I am reluctant to post on this web site.


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