# BrrrrRIP! HD-Mpeg4 Encoder Reset/Failures On Massive Increase



## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Ever since the initial HD-Mpeg4 encoders were brought on line (even way back 2+ years ago with the HD-LIL's), this 'BrrrrRIP' encoder reset has existed, sometimes very infrequent, sometimes increasing to ridiculous levels, where both the audio 'effect' and the video 'blanks out' for several seconds.

As the encoders s/w has been changed/upgraded (I'll assume it's the Harmonic MPeg4 encoders), it comes and goes. Some channels I watch religiously (interesting word there!), like NESN and YES, have had very little if any of this.

As the playoffs are well underway, it seems to be affecting poor TBS-HD just about every few minutes. But I've also noticed that channels such has HDNet-Movies (channel 552, the Mpeg4 one not the Mpeg2 one on 78), seem to be getting several failures an hour as well.

Obviously (to me), they've 'upgraded' the s/w for the encoders sometime in the last week or so, resulting in VERY POOR performance throughout.

Actually, I have three HD receiver systems in my living room, a HR20-700, HR20-100 (it belongs, actually, in my RV but it's 'mothballed' for the winter), and an H20-100. I usually watch the H20-100, leaving the HR's to record away. 

So, after I noticed a couple days ago on the increase in the resetting (and watching the playoffs on TBS-HD), I'm able to switch back to the other machines to verify the errors, right after they happen.

The three systems are actually one two different 'systems', as well, the HR20-700 is 'direct connected' to a Slimline dish, while the other two are through a SWM8 system off my 'original' Sidecar dish. So, completely different signal chains at my receive 'site'.

I'd think about calling DirecTV up, but only a couple of times (talking with level 2 or 3 folks), would they probably understand what's going on.

But it is VERY disconcerting, and perhaps a bit of an insight as to what's going on with all the roll-outs (or 'non-rollouts') of channels recently.

In short, it appears that quality assurance has gone down the tubes.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

FWIW, I have had no troubles here in SE Pennsylvania.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

Everything is fine here in MD.


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## davemayo (Nov 17, 2005)

Been watching a lot of TBS baseball the past couple of days. Haven't noticed anything.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

never seen that on 2 hr20-10 and an hr21-100 and I watch tbs often.


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## bnglbill (Nov 29, 2006)

I remember the days when this was very bad and I can remember being very frustrated, but those days are gone for me now. I only here that once in a blue moon now...

I seem to recall that is was very bad on live shows, about a year and a half ago American Idol was almost unwatchable because of it but the last couple of seasons have been spot on.


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## Grentz (Jan 10, 2007)

Have not had any issues personally with this.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Saw and heard one *BrrrrRIP! *last night, during playback of Tuesday night's _L&O:SVU_, It was during the scene in the captain's office, right after Stabler said "thanks captain" as he was leaving.

Otherwise, can't recall hearing any other *BrrrrRIP!'s* for months. /steve


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

2 HR units, never heard it, never experienced it.


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## Matman (Mar 24, 2008)

I've noticed it a few times, on Sci Fi and a couple other channels, always seemed to be when they were switching from one program to another, IE from one commercial to another, or from the program to a commercial etc......


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

It hadn't been a problem for a while, but watching the Cubs on TBS the last couple of nights, we've noticed a lot of BrrrrRIP in the sound when switching from the ball game to commercials. It's on both our HD DVRs, a HR20-700 and a HR21-700.

I haven't checked on the D12-300, but it wouldn't matter if this is an MPEG4 issue.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

I see this effect only very rarely on most MPEG4 national HD programming.

However, I see it (well, HEAR it mostly) pretty regularly (as in, almost every night, several times per episode) on the CBS MPEG4 HD local here in the Nashville area (WTVF Channel 5). Interestingly, it only occurs when showing CBS network programming - usually prime-time only, and rarely during football for instance. It NEVER occurs during locally-produce HD news programming. I have written to the station engineer who took the time to respond to me. He indicated he was unaware of the problem, as they do not monitor the Directv signal, they just provide it. He said he would work with them to try to resolve the problem, and things seemed to improve somewhat for a couple weeks. However, last week's episode of _CSI:NY_ was terrible again and I am considering writing the station a second time.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

LameLefty said:


> I see this effect only very rarely on most MPEG4 national HD programming.
> 
> However, I see it (well, HEAR it mostly) pretty regularly (as in, almost every night, several times per episode) on the CBS MPEG4 HD local here in the Nashville area (WTVF Channel 5). Interestingly, it only occurs when showing CBS network programming - usually prime-time only, and rarely during football for instance. It NEVER occurs during locally-produce HD news programming. I have written to the station engineer who took the time to respond to me. He indicated he was unaware of the problem, as they do not monitor the Directv signal, they just provide it. He said he would work with them to try to resolve the problem, and things seemed to improve somewhat for a couple weeks. However, last week's episode of _CSI:NY_ was terrible again and I am considering writing the station a second time.


like LameLefty I have noticed it on cbs local hd feeds also, both on OTA and on tv tuner itself. it is very seldom with me though, and is never when watching using the dvr.
wonder if its an audio setup issue, or if using ota tuner a signal amplification issue.


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## jpretguy (Dec 29, 2007)

No problem here in Detroit. Watched a movie on 552 last night and everything was ok...


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## d max82 (May 23, 2007)

I never watch TBS except for the playoffs , and have not seen this problem on any channel except on TBS here lately. I saw it probably 10-15 times during the Twins White Sox Tiebreaker


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## Hootermancs (Dec 18, 2006)

Yep, I had it quite frequently last night during the Cubs game. I don't think it ever happened during the game, was basically just at the end of some commercials I believe. 

Unless DTV fixing this issue will also somehow make the Cubs start playing better it doesn't really bother me. Just so it stays during commercials that is.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

I have heard it several times recently on the Dallas locals during prime time.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> like LameLefty I have noticed it on cbs local hd feeds also, both on OTA and on tv tuner itself. it is very seldom with me though, and is never when watching using the dvr.
> wonder if its an audio setup issue, or if using ota tuner a signal amplification issue.


 I know just what this sounds like.:lol:
While it used to just be every so often, for the past two weeks, it's become much more annoying during prime-time and only on my local 1080i [CBS & NBC].


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## Wrangler3 (Jun 27, 2007)

CNNHD had a few of those audio 'burps' during the VP debate on my receiver (HR21-100). I powered down the receiver last night and it was locked up to where I couldn't power it on so I had to pull the plug. It came up after that.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

As others have said, this was a major annoyance two years ago when the HR20 first came out, but I don’t experience it much anymore. It’s normal to watch an entire night of TV without one incident. I have noticed that our local NBC channel, which broadcasts the local news in HD, has some issue. Every night when they switch to the weather, there will be at least one BrrrRIP that occurs about 10-20 seconds into that segment. My guess is this is a problem with their equipment and not D*.


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## stim (Nov 16, 2005)

I see this all of the time on my local ABC channel. Sometimes it is completely unwatchable and I have to switch to the SD version of the channel.. 

I've never noticed the problem on any other channels so I assume it is something on their end.


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## jimmyv2000 (Feb 15, 2007)

Hootermancs said:


> Yep, I had it quite frequently last night during the Cubs game. I don't think it ever happened during the game, was basically just at the end of some commercials I believe.
> 
> Unless DTV fixing this issue will also somehow make the Cubs start playing better it doesn't really bother me. Just so it stays during commercials that is.


its the *CURSE*that follow the CUBS


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## Jon J (Apr 22, 2002)

LameLefty said:


> However, I see it (well, HEAR it mostly) pretty regularly (as in, almost every night, several times per episode) on the CBS MPEG4 HD local here in the Nashville area (WTVF Channel 5). Interestingly, it only occurs when showing CBS network programming - usually prime-time only, and rarely during football for instance. It NEVER occurs during locally-produce HD news programming. I have written to the station engineer who took the time to respond to me. He indicated he was unaware of the problem, as they do not monitor the Directv signal, they just provide it. He said he would work with them to try to resolve the problem, and things seemed to improve somewhat for a couple weeks. However, last week's episode of _CSI:NY_ was terrible again and I am considering writing the station a second time.


If you do write Roger again, please add my name to your letter. The audio farts are getting tedious.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

rudeney said:


> As others have said, this was a major annoyance two years ago when the HR20 first came out, but I don't experience it much anymore. It's normal to watch an entire night of TV without one incident. I have noticed that our local NBC channel, which broadcasts the local news in HD, has some issue. Every night when they switch to the weather, there will be at least one BrrrRIP that occurs about 10-20 seconds into that segment. My guess is this is a problem with their equipment and not D*.


The problems in our market are definitely not with the channels for the most part, as can be verified by comparing the OTA broadcast with the MPEG4 version.

This is not to say that the channels are perfect, but that the re-encoding done by DirecTV is definitely introducing artifacts is some cases. The incidence of these problems comes and goes, and seems to happen quite a bit more on some channels than others (CBS particularly).


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## ChrisPC (Jun 17, 2003)

LameLefty said:


> I see this effect only very rarely on most MPEG4 national HD programming.
> 
> However, I see it (well, HEAR it mostly) pretty regularly (as in, almost every night, several times per episode) on the CBS MPEG4 HD local here in the Nashville area (WTVF Channel 5).


I've never seen it on my Nashville MPEG4 locals, but I use OTA mostly. I was watching PBS OTA last night and it was pretty noticeable.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> The problems in our market are definitely not with the channels for the most part, as can be verified by comparing the OTA broadcast with the MPEG4 version.
> 
> This is not to say that the channels are perfect, but that the re-encoding done by DirecTV is definitely introducing artifacts is some cases. The incidence of these problems comes and goes, and seems to happen quite a bit more on some channels than others (CBS particularly).


If you follow the threads on this 'effect', going back the 2+ years, it comes and goes seemingly 'at will', sometimes rendering the HD locals, sometimes the nationals, sometime both, sometimes neither. I'm starting to refer to it as the 'Mpeg4 Lottery'.

The fact that it 'comes and goes', seemingly without any reasonable explanation that any users can figure out, it seems to be (to me) s/w changes in the encoders.

When DirecTV first started using Mpeg4 encoding, they were using Tandberg encoders exclusively (almost 3 years ago). The folks in the first HD-LIL markets (most notably Detroit and Atlanta) went through only what can be described as 'pure h*ll' for several months. There's a great article on the 'trials and tribulations' of the convoluted process that the Mpeg4 'standard' (of course, there are MANY different flavors of Mpeg4!) went through to get where it is today, in this months 'Widescreen Review'. I'd post the url here, but the site is 'members only'. But makes for great reading and much shaking of ones head.

Be that as it may, as it appears that DirecTV has 'standardized' on the Harmonic Mpeg4 encoders (how many of the Tandbergs are still in use is a good question), when these problems rear their heads, it's fairly obvious that some s/w change has been made, either for the better or worse.

Now, in 'preparation' for the Rays game this afternoon (I lived in St. Pete up through 1998) I've been letting TBS-HD drone on in the background this morning. ZERO (well, I caught one very small glitch a couple hours ago), defects.

Then again, in another ongoing 'problem', by local ABC-HD station has been off the air (and off the satellite) since 7am this morning. It took DirecTV almost 4 hours to put up the usual 'we are aware of the problem' slide; the engineers/techs are really watching things.... (NOT).

So, maybe the group in 'charge' of tweaking the Mpeg4 encoders saw the problems and either changed out the s/w or whatever. Of course, we lowly users will never know.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*1948GG*
This has been a good read, as [I have posted] I'm seeing the same thing with my locals.
"Somewhere" I've read that each transponder has all of the channels encoded at once and dynamically changes the bandwidth for each channel to maximize it. If this is true, it could be part of the issue as one channel "steals" bandwidth from another.
From what I'm seeing, 720p seems much less affected than the 1080i.
I worked for Harmonic back in the beginning [when they were Harmonic Lightwaves] and can only hope their quality has improved.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> *1948GG*
> This has been a good read, as [I have posted] I'm seeing the same thing with my locals.
> "Somewhere" I've read that each transponder has all of the channels encoded at once and dynamically changes the bandwidth for each channel to maximize it. If this is true, it could be part of the issue as one channel "steals" bandwidth from another.
> From what I'm seeing, 720p seems much less affected than the 1080i.
> I worked for Harmonic back in the beginning [when they were Harmonic Lightwaves] and can only hope their quality has improved.


The last 'bunch' of encoders DirecTV bought (just last month as a matter of fact!), the 'Electra 7000' machines natively support dynamic statistical multiplexing. I believe that the first bunch they bought (18-24 months ago or so) were a different model, I thought I had it bookmarked but... (typically) can't find it. But I believe they were the 'Divicom MV50' models.

I was going to add to my previous post that just in the last few days, in one of the press interviews (reported all over the web, once again I can't seem to pull up the revelent article!), that they are pushing their programming suppliers (from HBO to CNN) to provide their signals in Mpeg4/AVC rather than the Mpeg2/HD that most (on C-Band feeders) currently are. Of course, HBO announced a long time ago that all their HD contenct would be transmitted in Mpeg4/AVC so they were ahead of the curve (a side note, I helped design and build the HBO uplink facility in Hauppague, LI, NY, too many years ago I care to mention).

That would eliminate them doing a 'cross-conversion' of the data stream, and only be adding the 'packaging' of the bits/frames into the DirecTV DVB-S2 (plus encryption of course) streams.

But it seems to have really calmed down today, as I've seen/heard only a couple of minor glitches in the Rays/Sox game tonight. Nowhere near what it was last night. Here's an interesting thing that I saw first thing this morning, though; I had left at least two of my receivers on ch.247 (TBS-HD) last night, so that was the channel they were on all night.

Turn on the 'tube' this morning, and both were 'dead' screens, nothing. Hit the 'info' key on the remote, the 'banner' was there, just no sound or video. Channeled up to the SD channel, it was fine, and channeled back to the HD. Poof, there it was.

Now, since that happened on two machines (HR20-700, H20-100), I believe that either they (DirecTV) swapped out the encoder last night at some point, or loaded up some different firmware into the set, which caused the data stream to be interrupted and the receivers went 'whats up, doc?'.

Well, maybe. But like I said, I 'suffered' through listening to several sitcoms this morning (a couple 'Home Improvement' among others), and it was virtually solid as a rock (only one very minor glitch in 3+ hours). And it seems to be working just fine tonight.

Cross my fingers. Go Rays!

I might also add that after the 'TBS-HD' 'testing', I went over to HDNet-Movies and caught 'Shoot To Kill', a fav flick. It was solid as a rock (close to 2 hours) as well, after several days of guaranteed glitches ever few minutes or so.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Having more "Brrrraps" on CBS tonight - not bad but annoying. Good thing I'm going on vacation tomorrow. If they're still going on week after next, I'm gonna send another email to WTVF engineering.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

Two HR's. No such symptom.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

LameLefty said:


> Having more "Brrrraps" on CBS tonight - not bad but annoying. Good thing I'm going on vacation tomorrow. If they're still going on week after next, I'm gonna send another email to WTVF engineering.


Here in DFW had several "gunshot" type dropouts - very loud cracking noises - on CBS on Wednesday and Thursday but nothing Friday night.


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## inflames72 (Oct 12, 2007)

im wondering if this is what i experience on fox hd local. love me some house and sara connor, anyway, the picture freezes for maybe a second or two, and during most of the shows, even football on fox, the voices sound almost "mechanical" if that makes any sense. i too have gone to the sd version. very annoying and dissapointing too. but this only happens on fox hd, never noticed on any other channel. is this the same thing?


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

inflames72 said:


> im wondering if this is what i experience on fox hd local. love me some house and sara connor, anyway, the picture freezes for maybe a second or two, and during most of the shows, even football on fox, the voices sound almost "mechanical" if that makes any sense. i too have gone to the sd version. very annoying and dissapointing too. but this only happens on fox hd, never noticed on any other channel. is this the same thing?


There are several different 'effects' that many have seen/reported, the basic problem with virtually all of us at the 'end' of the transmission chain is that we don't know (or have access to) the 'input' that DirecTV is receiving off the 'feeder', except in one big case, the HD-LIL's where folks can receive the OTA Mpeg2/HD signal directly through the air, and can verify (some times) that the signal there (and captured by the DirecTV signal collection facility) is nice and steady, turned into mush by the transmission chain beyond that point.

There are also a handful of folks with 'digital cable', and even fewer with HD/Mpeg2 C-Band equipment that can do the same with some of the national feeds. I think at last count that was <5000 rigs nationwide that were ever authorized ;(the equipment in generally been unavailable for several years now)

But the type of glitch you're reporting is one of the 'sub-classes', I might say, of wacky things going on. The only way to verify that it's the DirecTV encoder/transmission chain is to get the OTA signal at the same time and verify that it's either funny as well or is fine. You'd have to really be on your toes.

When my HD-LIL's started up, I was generally watching like a hawk for glitches. Add to that, at the time the local OTA stations were 'having fun' learning how to properly (or not as the case may be) getting their PSIP's working correctly. There was a couple times even my best ATSC tuner (Samsung HDTV) got so confused I had to reboot it to get it to receive anything. I don't think I've seen any PSIP erros for several months, but of course the only station(s) I need OTA for are the CW and PBS, which aren't on the sat (maybe 4 hours a week total watch time).

But I think what you are describing sounds more like a glitch in the network encoding/transmission, rather than the Mpeg4/AVC of DirecTV. But it's really a coin toss, as it's a very rare occurrence (not something that happens every few minutes).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

inflames72 said:


> im wondering if this is what i experience on fox hd local. love me some house and sara connor, anyway, the picture freezes for maybe a second or two, and during most of the shows, even football on fox, the voices sound almost "mechanical" if that makes any sense. i too have gone to the sd version. very annoying and dissapointing too. but this only happens on fox hd, never noticed on any other channel. is this the same thing?


I see this too.
The 720p [Fox/ABC] seems to do this, while the 1080i [CBS/NBC] has the "Buzz saw".
"My guess" is that the progressive programs handle the "glitch" better than the interlaced.
I have recorded local OTA and been able to compare both the SAT feed to OTA and it hasn't been the station [during the past couple of weeks].


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

A lot of this stuff some folks see, and other seem not to, is simply that some folks are more 'sensitive' to whatever type of glitch we are talking about.

I tried to make that point in another thread that touched on this same subject and was basically treated to howls of 'disgust' to the idea that a lot of what I'd consider to be 'civilians' in all of this, don't hear/see the 'neat effects' that a lot of us do. 

A good example is 'lip-sync' problems. Some are VERY sensitive to it, others are not. Same with some of the subtle mpeg encoding effects, even Mpeg2 types that have been around since day one (1994). But the range of 'sensitive' is very wide, and it also depends on whether or not one has been 'in the industry' for a long period of time, or dealt with digital video/audio encoders for many years as a developer.

I got deeply involved in developing the Mpeg2 broadcast standard in 1987, spent about half my time through 1992 doing R&D on the encoders that eventually became used by DirecTV in 1993-4 for the initial dbs roll-out. I'm VERY sensitive (when I want to be) to many, MANY, 'effects' that in the course of 'normal' viewing I am able to 'turn off', and simply enjoy the program. That doesn't mean, though, that I can disregard a lot of the 'speed bumps' the bitstream goes over from time to time.

Luckily, my HD-LIL's rarely have excessive problems, but I do notice when the glitch rate suddenly goes up, same with the nationals, which started this thread. I sometimes wonder if DirecTV engineering types are really looking closely for problems, or....

Reminds me of several years ago, in doing some testing for a FITL (fiber in the loop) transmission company, I noticed right away some little 'burbs' or 'glitches' in the telephone and data being carried by the system from the Class5 switch to the neighborhood RDT (Remote Data Terminal, where the twisted pairs came in from the homes). All the engineers and techs said, 'That's normal!', but when I brought it up to the head engineer of the system project, his eyes got VERY wide, and much phoning (and eventually a couple of full meetings ensued).

Come to find out, the problems I saw in what took me maybe 30 minutes to note, had been completely 'missed' (I'd say ignored), by the technical staff, and the heads of the project were 'not in the loop' enough to notice. It took the s/w people a good 6 months to track down the code that was causing it, and fix the system. Meanwhile, the company had to put a temporary hold on selling was was their premier product.

30 minutes. Open Eyes. Bring someone in from the outside to take a good, hard, look at your system. I wonder if DirecTV is doing that (although recent takeovers of the installation companies seem to say to me YES in some areas). I just hope that the guys working on the encoder 'projects' have their eyes and ears FULLY open.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

well, friday nights Sanctuary premeir (I liked that) made me a liar, about 20 min in going from commercial to show I had this happen. it was just the one time and is the only time I remember it happening to me on non-ota viewings.


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## longrider (Apr 21, 2007)

I will be watching my recording of Sanctuary tonight, I'll see if I notice it. My experience with this issue is when I first got MPEG4 capability (about July '07) I noticed it regularly on HD LiL. Not enough to make anything unwatchable but definitly enough to be annoying. It mostly went away but recently I have been seeing (hearing?) it happen again but not often at all.

1948GG, I have to agree with what you said about people noticing things, and the 'civilians' description is a good one. I worked in broadcast for a few years and I see things that no one else does and they wonder why I react to 'nothing'


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## donkeylips (Jul 16, 2008)

Im normally really quick to notice and complain about even the smallest problems with Directv HD. Im a real whiner when it comes to this stuff. :lol: 

That being said, Im laid off right now and have watched every inning of every playoff game on TBSHD so far. Havent seen the issue once. H21 and HR21.

I do however see plenty of other issues with Directv HD including frame dropping on Spike HD(especially duing CSI reruns), and slight but constant video glitches on the MPEG-4 ESPN's. The ESPN issues seem to be geting some attention, as its alot better lately. Any episode of CSI I can still see major frame drops/studdering.

I also see evidence of bitstarving on a daily basis. There plenty of motion issues to go around with MPEG-4 HD on D*.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

We've heard this numerous times tonight during the Phils/Brewers game on TBSHD.


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## kw2957 (Apr 5, 2008)

Ken S said:


> We've heard this numerous times tonight during the Phils/Brewers game on TBSHD.


And we're off to game four... :nono2:


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

donkeylips said:


> I also see evidence of bitstarving on a daily basis. There plenty of motion issues to go around with MPEG-4 HD on D*.


But is the bit starving DirecTV's fault, or are they getting relatively low bandwidth feeds from the source? Based upon what I've seen from FIOS lately on some channels, my suspicion is the latter.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> But is the bit starving DirecTV's fault, or are they getting relatively low bandwidth feeds from the source? Based upon what I've seen from FIOS lately on some channels, my suspicion is the latter.


Have you been to a FIOS headend? You do know how the system works (have a background in both digital video and both long distance and local fiber distribution?).

First off, there is no FIOS 'headend' as such in the cities/neighborhoods they serve, like the cablecos or DirecTV. ALL the national signals are gathered from the programmers and routed through a national 'superhighway buss' system where each local system plucks off the channels they wish to serve into that system, and adding the local channels as they do it.

Don't think for a minute they don't have the SAME bandwidth restrictions as satellite or coaxial cable. The is 'Bell Atlantic' we're talking about (nee: Verizon), and the basic system does have limitations, due to both the electronics and the fiber installed.

I've talked about this on other threads at length, and there are limitations. I was there literally 'at the beginning' of neighborhood fiber distribution (with digital video) in the mid 90's, and the system(s) Bell Atlantic/Verizon have built do have restrictions. Every system does. The system they have installed near to me in Snohomish County, WA., has a total video capacity of (guess?) 150 channels. Hmmm, sounds awfully familiar. 

Could it be expanded to handle more? After all, I spent a lot of time retrofitting intercity systems back in the late 90's (MCI in particular, fiber that was plowed in the late 80's/early 90's) to handle 'Course WDM' over older fiber plant.

A bit; Nortel has some tricks up it's sleeve right now that's able to use fiber that was installed during the late 90's to handle 2-3 times the data rate as the original equipment was able to handle.

The trick, as always, is cost. The FIOS systems are all PON (passive optical networks), and could eventually be upgraded (at some cost) to active optical, and handle more traffic without replacing the fiber plant. The question, at the end of the day, is whether that cost is worth doing, or replacing out the fiber plant to newer/better fiber. They do have some choices, but the bean counters will always be the final judge.

Fiber does have some inherent advantages, but sill has the disadvantages of any 'wired' system. The cost is jaw-dropping. Makes coaxial cable look downright cheap. It took cable 30+ years to begin to break even, and get to 70% of potential homes passed. How long will it take the fiber systems (either FIOS or others) to get to even 1%?

I'm going over the same ground again. Call me when FIOS gets to even 1% of a single state. Because at that point, Verizon stock will be worth pennies, if that.

It all sounds really neat, but it's like my Dad told me almost 40 years ago (he was a V.P. of GTE), innovations will happen when the cost makes it imperative. Remember, at that time, the bulk of Class5 switches in the US were still electromechanical, the first long distance digital fiber (land or oceanic) had yet to be installed, television (analog) transmission by satellite was being done in fits and starts, and the number of dial mobile-phone systems (in the entire country) could be counted on the fingers of two hands (no toes!).

FIOS cost analysis (from Verizon): $3500 per POTENTIAL subscriber home passed.

Take that figure, plug in the homes in your city, and multiply, When the cost gets close to equaling the national debt (even with this weeks 'adds'), give up. And don't put your retirement fund into Verizon stock!


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Yikes!  

Didn't mean to inspire a FIOS rant (though I agree with much of it). Just pointing out that the bitstarving the person was seeing on some of the DirecTV MPEG4 channels may have more to do with the content provider than anything DirecTV is doing with the signal.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

bwaldron said:


> Yikes!
> 
> Didn't mean to inspire a FIOS rant (though I agree with much of it). Just pointing out that the bitstarving the person was seeing on some of the DirecTV MPEG4 channels may have more to do with the content provider than anything DirecTV is doing with the signal.


Also, most of the plant that is installed right now cost >$5500 per potential sub passed, the engineering/installation/costs have been improving as they've gotten smarter on how to do it. So there is some 'learning curve' going on, which is heartening.

Also, this is all Mpeg2/HD, NOT Mpeg4. Perhaps at some point they will have to swap out all the encoders/decoders (including subscriber equipment) for Mpeg4.

Exactly what is going on right now, we simply don't know. Obviously, the source almost all of us can easily check is the HD-LIL's, Mpeg4/Sat vrs. OTA Mpeg2/HD. A few (in NY and LA up to when the older feeds got/get turned off) the Mpeg2/HD/Sat vrs. OTA Mpeg2/HD. Since I don't live in either city (and never have), the reports at least from the LA folks is that picture quality wise, the Mpeg4 feeds were instantly noticeable as being better. And like most of us around the country, the Mpeg4/Sat reception quality was as identical to the OTA Mpeg2/HD as could be figured.

I doubt that many. though, did any real blind 'studies' of seeing whether they could 'pick out' which feed they were watching and get any statistical idea of just how good it was. I did, thanks to a remote control that would randomly select between the two feeds, I then selected which I thought it was, then after a 100 choices, I looked at how well I picked. I tried both 720P (ABC) and 1080i (CBS) and got about the same results. When our FOX station got on the sat, I tried the routine again, and got about the same results.

I could 'generally' (by a couple of percentage points) pick out the sat signal. Because it was 'cleaner', and if I stayed on the 'choice' for very long, would get OTA glitches that were absent in the sat signal.

I think that beyond some minor (to major) local glitching (local stations to DirecTV collection facility problems), I think everyone 'generally' thinks that their LIL-HD looks pretty fantastic. I watch the two channels (CW/PBS) that the sat doesn't have (gotta have my 'Smallville' and science programs!) and when I do, I notice the OTA Mpeg2/HD 'junk' going on.

As I commented on a few posts back, DirecTV is starting to put pressure on the programmers to change out to Mpeg4/AVC and toss the Mpeg2/HD transmissions. That might really help.

I've got this bug under my skin that tells me that (if I were to really look at the system now in place) to look at the statistical multiplexer part of those encoder boxes. Over the years, virtually every statmux system I've ever dealt with has had problems.... MAJOR problems. Now, when DirecTV started using statmuxs on Mpeg2, the result was pretty good; I don't know what the bit reduction was (or what the target was), but it did work.

Unfortunately, at the time they implemented this was the same time they started doing SD-LIL's, and turned off some 6+ national transponders at 101deg. to enable the spot beam systems. So any improvement was not really 'seen', in fact, most subscribers (including myself) point to that as the real beginning of the quality reduction in SD/Mpeg2 transmissions. But the statmux system was separate from the encoders....

So who knows. When the system work (!), it's output is virtually identical to, or even better (no atmospherics!) than the original transmission. There are a handful of program suppliers that are Mpeg4/AVC, I believe (I'll have to look it up) some of the 'Science' channels. In fact, the other day I did watch a couple of programs on there and didn't notice anything going on, but maybe that's something to pursue (find out what's what).

But again, it sure looks, from the point things are running pretty fine, to almost a nightmare, to back again, that some 'human' is tweaking the system. Those da*n organics! :lol:


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## jimdx (Sep 9, 2007)

1948GG said:


> Ever since the initial HD-Mpeg4 encoders were brought on line (even way back 2+ years ago with the HD-LIL's), this 'BrrrrRIP' encoder reset has existed............


THANKS! for explaining what it is that has been driving me crazy recently. I've been experiencing this for the first time and had no idea what it was. I've also recently been watching TBSHD because of the playoffs, a channel I usually don't watch.

At first I thought I was imagining things but after several occurrences, I realized something was "wrong". My first thought was, of course, my HR21-200 (I'm on my third box now...). At least I know now it's not a problem at my end.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Saw it for the first time Friday night. If it happened often, it could get annoying very quickly.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1948GG said:


> I've got this bug under my skin that tells me that (if I were to really look at the system now in place) to look at the statistical multiplexer part of those encoder boxes. Over the years, virtually every statmux system I've ever dealt with has had problems.... MAJOR problems. Now, when DirecTV started using statmuxs on Mpeg2, the result was pretty good; I don't know what the bit reduction was (or what the target was), but it did work.


I seem to have the same itch.
Since the MPEG-4 has less bits, it seems the loss of any, can become much more noticeable.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

jimdx said:


> THANKS! for explaining what it is that has been driving me crazy recently. I've been experiencing this for the first time and had no idea what it was. I've also recently been watching TBSHD because of the playoffs, a channel I usually don't watch.
> 
> At first I thought I was imagining things but after several occurrences, I realized something was "wrong". My first thought was, of course, my HR21-200 (I'm on my third box now...). At least I know now it's not a problem at my end.


I probably should have been more specific at the beginning, but here's what appears to be the 'stages' of the 'brrrRIP' 'glitch'...

First Stage: basically audio only, either very quick (<1sec.) through up to around 3 seconds long.

Second Stage: audio glitch, long duration (>3secs or so), and video starts to be affected (frame jumps)

Third Stage: audio glich, very long duration >3secs, accompanied by video disruption up to and beyond the point where full synchronization is lost; I've seen rare occurrences of this upwards of 5-7secs or so.

I think all stages of this are related in some way; it is a bit disconcerting (or more than a bit) to see these problems come and go en mass, and not be able to reach through the set and strangle the part (Homer Simpson like!) the part causing it!
Again I think we can only hope the engineers at DirecTV (and the encoder manufacturer) are on top of this, or not 'blowing it off' like I've seen throughout my career.

But I'm retired. I watch DirecTV a good 10+ hours a day, and even if I'm cruising the web I usually have it droning on in the background (unless I've got my Sirius receiver going; far superior IMHO than XM, but that's another topic!).
Especially Baseball. Now that the season is in the playoffs, I'll have to figure out what to do during the 'usual' weekdays!

But I have the set tuned up to TBS pretty much. Without the baseball, I'd be like most, rarely if ever watching the channel.


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## donkeylips (Jul 16, 2008)

bwaldron said:


> But is the bit starving DirecTV's fault, or are they getting relatively low bandwidth feeds from the source? Based upon what I've seen from FIOS lately on some channels, my suspicion is the latter.


I suspect its a little bit of both. There are definitely some channels sending out bad source material, no doubt about that.

There are also some channels that send out outstanding source material, like HD NET and HDNET Movies. Bitstarving issues can be seen on D* from the HDNets, and we know those channels are being sent from the source in pristine fashion.

The bitstarving motion issues that can be seen on HDNet are not nearly as extreme as say Smithsonian or HBO (both sources are known to send out marginal source material). The issues are way more pronounced on Smithsonian and HBO. Hence the reason I believe the problems are a combination of D* bitstarving, and bad source material.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

donkeylips said:


> I suspect its a little bit of both. There are definitely some channels sending out bad source material, no doubt about that.
> 
> There are also some channels that send out outstanding source material, like HD NET and HDNET Movies. Bitstarving issues can be seen on D* from the HDNets, and we know those channels are being sent from the source in pristine fashion.
> 
> The bitstarving motion issues that can be seen on HDNet are not nearly as extreme as say Smithsonian or HBO (both sources are known to send out marginal source material). The issues are way more pronounced on Smithsonian and HBO. Hence the reason I believe the problems are a combination of D* bitstarving, and bad source material.


I'd take issue with that particular example, as both HDNET and HDNET-Movies are distributed by C-Band utilizing Mpeg2/HD (which has it's particular problems), and DirecTV has singled out those distribution channels as ones they would like changed forthwith to Mpeg4/AVC.

All the 'new' HBO channels (interestingly, that DirecTV declines so far to carry) are transmitted via Mpeg4/AVC, but I don't think the 'original' HBO-East (or Cinemax-E) are; lots of cable headends need to be swapped out, and simulcasting for some period of time for those to be swapped over.

I'm trying to get together a 'list' of those programmers that distribute with Mpeg4/AVC, I'm afraid I'll probably have to utilize Lyngsat as a source (notoriously inaccurate), but I have no choice.

Until we have all the information (and despite the work put into it, we may never really have enough), I'd stop short of making broad examples one way or the other. As I've pointed out, the only re-transmission through the DirecTV system we really have any type of 'grip' on are the HD-LIL locals, since we have access to the OTA Mpeg2 transmission that originates it. And I see tons of problems with those transmissions (the OTA signals) all the time.

But I'm not talking about the 'subtle' differences here, but rather major ones. 
Clean up those and then, maybe, we can start talking about the finer details.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

The problem occurs consistently between commercials...and it seems quite often between the change from national to local spot.


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## daveshouse (Feb 6, 2008)

This is annoying. I'm getting this problem quite a lot here on the Jags-Steelers game. Lots of stuttering, delays, etc. I didn't notice much on CBS during the Cowboys-Bengals game earlier, but it's doing it quite a lot now on NBC.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Ken S said:


> The problem occurs consistently between commercials...and it seems quite often between the change from national to local spot.


Let me perhaps explain a bit of what is perhaps going on, by using an explanation that many here may have either done or attempted (i.e., encoding something into one format, they trying to recover the 'original' source).

Take a CD; you should know the specs of this, as it's been around for 30 years. 16 bit encoding, with a sample rate of 44.1khz (so, 16x44.1k = 705600 x 2 channels, or 1411.2kb/s (the standard 'Red Book' specs as originally established by the Phillips Corp.). There is some error correction added, but lets forget about that.

Encode that cd to the popular format of today, bit-reduced MP3, ACC, whatever. Then take that, and re-code it back to CD specs.

How do you think it will sound, next to the original CD...?

Well, depending on the reduction, even if the bit rate is the highest in that format, pretty poorly.

Now think video. Bit rates are obviously much higher, but say the programmer is utilizing HD bitrates in excess of 300Mb/s (like, say, D5 or some other digital storage system, either tape or disc based.

Encode it using Mpeg2/HD, down to where it will 'fit' into a typical C-Band digital channel (oh, say, a standard 36Mhz channel digitally encoded with one of the 'standard' modulation schemes, like Digicypher2/HD), where the raw bitstream is some 30Mb/s.

So, you've already 'squeezed' it about 10:1, or 300Mb/s to 30Mb/s. Now, you 'unsqueeze' it back to to the 300Mb/s, and re-encode it to the Mpeg4/AVC system you are using to transmit to your customers.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that something occurs that is.... nasty. Such 'transcoding' systems, even in the (by comparison) very-low bitrate telephony world (like transcoding US/Japan standard digital telephone signals to European standard) are complex and very (as the Brits would say) 'sqeegy'. In years past, the 'solution' was to put US and Euro encoders 'back to back' to do the conversion correct. FUN!

Hey, sounds like what DirecTV has to do now, with the program suppliers that are providing their signal in non-Mpeg4/AVC formats....!

Now, the commercial insertions, when those are definitely comming off a Hard Disk system, and are probably Mpeg4/AVC to begin with, and that perhaps makes things more.... complex.

And, you can see why DirecTV is trying to get it's program suppliers to provide their signals in Mpeg4/AVC natively. Some, like some of the STARZ channels, already are. Now to get the rest of them to do so.

As I don't subscribe to STARZ-HD, I don't know if they are 'cleaner' than the ones that don't (like the original HBO's).

It's really a wonder it works at all.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

OK - I rescind my previous "It's OK" answer.

This has gotten a LOT worse just in the last 2 days. 

I recorded SNL on 2 HR20's. The BrrrrRIP occured at the exact same places in both recordings.

This is not good at all.

I thought D10 and D11 were supposed to solve all this bitstarving mess.


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## daveshouse (Feb 6, 2008)

I didn't hear much from anyone else. Just wondering again if anyone noticed all the BrrrRIP during the Pitt-Jac game on NBC last night?


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> OK - I rescind my previous "It's OK" answer.
> 
> This has gotten a LOT worse just in the last 2 days.
> 
> ...


A lot of the comments, including this one, are confusing the spot-beam HD-LIL's (a lot of which are off of the Spaceway sats) with the national beams from DirecTV10/11.

And then all this nonsense about 'bit-starving' and such. I won't say absolutely for sure, but I don't believe it has anything WHATSOEVER to do with lack of bitspace; the Ka/Mpeg4AVC transmissions, either LIL's OR national channels, have loads of space, and the type of 'effects' that it would exhibit, along with perhaps the Brrrrip thing, would be obvious, and those effects aren't being seen.

Virtually every HD channel on DirecTV, local or national, is being transcoded from Mpeg2/HD to the Mpeg4/AVC format. There are a handful that aren't, I'm trying to get together a list, to see if there are any correlation's between anything.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

daveshouse said:


> I didn't hear much from anyone else. Just wondering again if anyone noticed all the BrrrRIP during the Pitt-Jac game on NBC last night?


I can't say I was watching that game, but NBC gives me this problem almost as much as TBS has been.


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## donkeylips (Jul 16, 2008)

I posted a few days back that I have never seen this problem, even on TBS where it was being reported to happen often.

Well, ever since I posted that I wasnt having a problem, I am now seeing the issue often, on alot of different channels including TBS. And it seems to be getting worse by the day...Ouch!!!


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

oddly enough, it stopped happening to me and I have not had it since early Saturday morning.
bet I just jinxed myself.


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## donkeylips (Jul 16, 2008)

David MacLeod said:


> oddly enough, it stopped happening to me and I have not had it since early Saturday morning.
> bet I just jinxed myself.


Im seeing the problem more often than ever during the TB/CHI game on TBS HD..

Theres also a new thread that was started today about channels starting to lock up.


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## excalibur26 (Sep 12, 2007)

That's why the HD receivers have a reset button, and on the front too! Who-hoo.........

The maufacturers, and can we be honest here, have produced a lot of troublesome equipment.
:nono2:


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## mark_winn (Nov 3, 2005)

It was real bad on Detroit Fox 2 during Terminator. It happended about every 5 to 10 minuetes followed by some pixalation.


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## br408408 (Jun 1, 2008)

Very bad on Orlando Fl locals last night. BrrrrrrRIP and, then the screen turns blue for 3-4 seconds. Like a BSOD on a computer only no text.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

br408408 said:


> Very bad on Orlando Fl locals last night. BrrrrrrRIP and, then the screen turns blue for 3-4 seconds. Like a BSOD on a computer only no text.


This and a couple other folks that are getting it pretty consistently, right up to the 'level 3' complete loss of sync/video/audio (as I described in an earlier post in this thread) is pretty 'consistent' in the HD-LIL's, and that is a pretty straightforward transcoding, the OTA Mpeg2/HD/ATSC signals to the Mpeg4/AVC.

The unfortunate thing is we don't know which encoder, or s/w in that encoder, that is being used. And, it appears that the techs/engineers watching the HD-LIL's may be much lower number of eyeballs simply due to the shear volume of markets/stations involved (figure it out: 100 markets times at least 4 stations per, that's 400 channels right there).

I'm still trying to correlate the original transmission types vrs. the 'effects', but other than the OTA HD locals (which are obviously all Mpeg2 ATSC), the different formats in the C-Band world feeding DirecTV (the HBO's, CNN's, etc), are some 6+ different formats.

I love some of the British type 'comments', having worked with many UK folks around the world, and what immediately came to mind in looking at all these different transmission 'schemes', is.... 'Bloody H*LL!' Couldn't they have come up with SOME standarization? OH NO... lets all invent our own!

But like I said, if DirecTV, and their encoder of choice (Harmonic), can't get the Mpeg2 ATSC conversion right, they haven't got a CHANCE with this collection of wacko stuff coming off C-Band.


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Just a kinda 'no update update' on this.

As I said in the last posting, the 5+ different types of HD that DirecTV is having to deal with, from OTA ATSC Mpeg2 through multiple types of C-Band digital Satellite delivered programming...

There are by my count (not exactly accurate, but close), at least a dozen other threads scattered among the different DirecTV forums here, mostly addressing LIL-HD but some others on national channels, describing variations of this 'effect'.

There appears to be absolutely no correlation between the type of conversion being done. The OTA ATSC is 'up front' simply because of the percentage of hours folks watch their local stations, but others (like TBS-HD) are high up the viewing food chain simply because of the baseball playoffs. More eyeballs are on local FOX affiliates because of the same effect, and the complaints there are up as well.

In watching the RedSox/Rays game last night on TBS-HD, at least once every 10minutes there were audio/video 'burps', and watching CNBC-HD the last few days (who hasn't?), which has in the past been a channel that was relatively free of 'effects', was getting hammered most of the day Friday. And they didn't even do their 'picture-in-picture' thing where some talking head (congressional panel to the prez) was going on in the extreme lower-right corner.

At some point, maybe, they can get their technical staff zero'ed in on this and FIX it. At this point, though, even despite the dozens of threads (including the latest bunch) on this, I fear that the DirecTV is simply 'tuning it out', as in the telco example I posted in this thread a few days ago.


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## ironfoot995 (Dec 24, 2004)

1984GG:

Do you think this could also be causing some of the "new" Mpeg4 stations to lose some of the 5.1 sound? I noticed for the first time during Monday evening's NFL game on ESPN that, although my Denon 3808 showed it was receiving 5.1 from ESPN, I wasn't getting any sound out of my side surrounds, only the fronts, center, sub, and rears. I tried tweaking the Denon to fix the problem, but nothing worked. The Denon is set to convert 5.1 tp 7.1 with PL-IIx.

After noticing the problem on ESPN, I also tried some of the other DirrecTV HDs and some of them had the problem and some of them didn't. Also tried my local Fox LIL-HD and sound was loud & clear through the surrounds. Also really strange was that if the Denon showed receiving 5.1, no surrounds, but showing receiving 2.0, sound from all speakers.

I have the HR20-700, hooked to the Denon 3808CI with HDMI, hooked to a Panny 50PZ77 1080p plasma with HDMI. A Panny BD30 Blu-Ray is also hooked up to the 3808 with HDMI. All speakers are firing playing a Blu-Ray. I was thinking the last Denon upgrade may have caused the problem, until I got into this thread.

John


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

ironfoot995 said:


> 1984GG:
> 
> Do you think this could also be causing some of the "new" Mpeg4 stations to lose some of the 5.1 sound? I noticed for the first time during Monday evening's NFL game on ESPN that, although my Denon 3808 showed it was receiving 5.1 from ESPN, I wasn't getting any sound out of my side surrounds, only the fronts, center, sub, and rears.


Most of the 'stations', particularly locals and 'satellite' (like ESPN), are pretty lax when it comes to keeping an eye on their audio feeds.

I didn't watch MNF this week (the teams are right at the bottom of my 'feeding list', and the BB playoffs are going, so...), but the audio chain to your Dolby receiver is locking in onto the signal, as transmitted by DirecTV.

That doesn't mean, though, it actually IS Dolby5.1. A LOT of live sports audio on a number of channels is 'fake' surround, and it sounds horrible. ESPN is usually pretty good, but they can take an occasional 'dump', and it's also possible that the DirecTV reception (off C-Band) may have 'defaulted' to stereo, even though the Mpeg4 encoder was still set up to transmit DD5.1.

Lots of things in the 'chain'. I don't use (in fact avoid) HDMI, in my home theater system, and don't have an HDMI equipped receiver there (the HDMI junk is up in my bedroom). Straight Toslink from the DirecTV boxes to the sound processor.

In short, anything could have happened.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

A couple of them during My Own Worst Enemy (and the local cut from a scene for about 15 seconds to show half of yet another Obama commercial). I have also seen these a lot recently during Terminator and Bones.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

1948GG said:


> Most of the 'stations', particularly locals and 'satellite' (like ESPN), are pretty lax when it comes to keeping an eye on their audio feeds.
> 
> I didn't watch MNF this week (the teams are right at the bottom of my 'feeding list', and the BB playoffs are going, so...), but the audio chain to your Dolby receiver is locking in onto the signal, as transmitted by DirecTV.
> 
> ...


Please elaborate on why you "avoid" HDMI and your "HDMI junk is up in my bedroom". I have an HDMI output from the HR20 to a decent receiver/speakeer system, the optical output to digital headphones and a digital coaxial output from a cd/dvd player to digital headphones. The HDMI sound rivals both the optical and coaxial outputs - are you saying you hear a difference that deems the HDMI sound to be "junk"?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jjohns said:


> Please elaborate on why you "avoid" HDMI and your "HDMI junk is up in my bedroom". I have an HDMI output from the HR20 to a decent receiver/speakeer system, the optical output to digital headphones and a digital coaxial output from a cd/dvd player to digital headphones. The HDMI sound rivals both the optical and coaxial outputs - are you saying you hear a difference that deems the HDMI sound to be "junk"?


Substitute "Stuff" for "junk" and I think you'll have his meaning.


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## Halo (Jan 13, 2006)

They have serious problems. The NLCS game tonight reset at least 150 times (often with a few seconds of black screen) tonight on the Fox local LA station. Unwatchable.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I almost responded with "I've never had this problem", but then I think I figured out what you're talking about. Is it almost like a "pop" in the audio?

I heard this for the first time about 2 weeks ago. Over the next week or so, we heard it 3 or 4 times, but haven't heard it again in the last week. I don't remember what shows we were watching (or if recorded or live), but I have experienced it.


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## donkeylips (Jul 16, 2008)

Halo said:


> They have serious problems. The NLCS game tonight reset at least 150 times (often with a few seconds of black screen) tonight on the Fox local LA station. Unwatchable.


Local FOX via Directv from Green Bay is just awful too. Totally unwatchable.

Luckily for me I can pick it up via Charter QAM Traverse City, MI without a single glitch ever. The Bbbrrrippp problem on Directv is really getting out of hand.

Luckily the problem isnt nearly as bad on other channels as compared to FOX. The problem is showing up on pretty much every channel these days though, with regularity.

This thread sure isnt very active considering how bad the problem has gotten.


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## Taltizer (Sep 26, 2007)

About every 10 mins or so during the debates on CNN tonight it was going on and i notice it alot on other hd channels now too its really starting to get alot more worse.


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## Bretman (Jul 30, 2008)

What I'm getting is a vibration noise, followed by a temp picture freeze, followed by a blank screen which usually corrects itself after about 10-15 seconds. I have an HR20-700.

It happens only on my FOX HD affiliate (Los Angeles) and the TBS HD stations. It usually happens 4-5 times during the baseball playoff game broadcasts. Usually right during exciting plays which is maddening.  

Haven't seen it on other shows, so I thought it just may be a bad broadcast feed from the game. I end up switching to the SD equivalent station which doesn't have the problem, except for some strange reason, the picture sometimes goes blurry. (A little out of focus). :eek2: 

I was thinking about calling Tech Support about this, but you can bet that they'll just tell me to push the front reset button. There's no time to do that without missing the game ! :nono2: 

That's why I switch to the SD station as a workaround.

I previously experienced the HR20 lockup around 10/6-10/8 which caused me to truncate recordings. I was able to fix this by unscrewing the coax cables, waiting for one minute, reattaching both coaxes, and pushing reset. I don't know if this can be related.  

What's the best solution/workaround, other than changing channels ?


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

As a data point in this discussion I watched the new Thursday SNL show last week on ch 82. I remember at least once hearing the noise described by the OP. I will try to watch it again tonight on ch 82 and see what happens.

So if the distortion is in the MPEG-2 feed it may be from the source.


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## Bretman (Jul 30, 2008)

spartanstew said:


> I almost responded with "I've never had this problem", but then I think I figured out what you're talking about. Is it almost like a "pop" in the audio?


I get a vibration noise so strong, it's like a strong hummmmm. I almost think the receiver is telling the dish to adjust it's position by moving around. I assume it doesn't because the dish is supposed to be fixed, but it sounds like that.

Kind of like the old roof television antennas that rotated when you twisted a dial...you could hear the antenna moving up on the roof.

After the hummmmm, I get I picture freeze followed by a blipping blank screen.

The picture corrects itself in about 10-15 seconds.

Real annoying and maddening...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

As I posted earlier, I've been having this with my local HD.
30 days after first reporting it to DirecTV, I had another "urge" to call DirecTV about it. The CSR had a script that showed the Network broadcast center was aware of it and not to send service calls for it as it was "in work".
So last week [Thurs] every recording in prime time, from three networks, all had this problem. I emailed "the office" again. I got a phone call and "someone" would look into it as the "status" hadn't been updated in almost a month.
Today I got a follow on call. They want to roll a truck out now to check my system. Since it's free, fine, but I pointed out that there is no problems with my system, but I understood "they" needed to start somewhere. After talking a bit more I heard the broadcast center had monitored my locals "for a whole 25 min" and determined there was no problem with their system.

Excuse me but: WTF? 
An intermittent problem can be "cleared" in less than 30 min of "looking"? :lol: :lol: 
I've been asked to record [save recordings] that exhibit the problem. This is going to be so hard, as I've got two so far and it's been just a few hours.
Anybody want to take "bets" on what the installer/tech is going to say when they get here Wed. afternoon?


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> As I posted earlier, I've been having this with my local HD.
> 30 days after first reporting it to DirecTV, I had another "urge" to call DirecTV about it. The CSR had a script that showed the Network broadcast center was aware of it and not to send service calls for it as it was "in work".
> So last week [Thurs] every recording in prime time, from three networks, all had this problem. I emailed "the office" again. I got a phone call and "someone" would look into it as the "status" hadn't been updated in almost a month.
> Today I got a follow on call. They want to roll a truck out now to check my system. Since it's free, fine, but I pointed out that there is no problems with my system, but I understood "they" needed to start somewhere. After talking a bit more I heard the broadcast center had monitored my locals "for a whole 25 min" and determined there was no problem with their system.
> ...


Have you posted in the HD LIL Issues thread for your locals? The Mods have made a Sticky in the Programming Forum that points to a new subforum filled with threads to report these issues.

Obviously this is something Directv is aware of (at higher levels than the CSRs reading from scripts) since shortly after those threads were created, we basically stopped having those issues in the Nashville market. I haven't had this issue in perhaps a month after having it multiple times every night on some channels (our CBS local in particular).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

LameLefty said:


> Have you posted in the HD LIL Issues thread for your locals? The Mods have made a Sticky in the Programming Forum that points to a new subforum filled with threads to report these issues.
> 
> Obviously this is something Directv is aware of (at higher levels than the CSRs reading from scripts) since shortly after those threads were created, we basically stopped having those issues in the Nashville market. I haven't had this issue in perhaps a month after having it multiple times every night on some channels (our CBS local in particular).


Thanks for "the point" to that thread. It has only two posters and they're two months old now.
I'm going to pursue the process that is in work.

I think the point I most wanted to make was that the network broadcast center spent all of 25 min monitoring "the problem" to dismiss it as being a problem.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

A three man engineering team just left. They poked all over my system, made a couple of changes that they agreed had nothing to do with the problem, but "what the heck" type stuff.
Next came "a talk" with someone that knew what the problem is.
It seems to be related to the Dolby encoding, they say. At this point "I think they're right" as I believe I've gotten "in touch" with those that know.


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## mickcris (Mar 16, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> A three man engineering team just left. They poked all over my system, made a couple of changes that they agreed had nothing to do with the problem, but "what the heck" type stuff.
> Next came "a talk" with someone that knew what the problem is.
> It seems to be related to the Dolby encoding, they say. At this point "I think they're right" as I believe I've gotten "in touch" with those that know.


Hopefully the figure out how to fix it soon as it drives me nuts. I have mostly had problems on a couple of hd locals, but i also notice it on cnn hd pretty often also.


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## aarontx (Nov 1, 2008)

veryoldschool said:


> A three man engineering team just left. They poked all over my system, made a couple of changes that they agreed had nothing to do with the problem, but "what the heck" type stuff.
> Next came "a talk" with someone that knew what the problem is.
> It seems to be related to the Dolby encoding, they say. At this point "I think they're right" as I believe I've gotten "in touch" with those that know.


This is good news, please stay on top of these guys for all of us. I have been going through the same audio glitches and stutters for awhile now too on my HD channels, national and local.

I went through the whole directv tech situation. They pretty much changed everything out, receiver, cabling, bbc's, lnb. Had power checked and grounding, did it all and when they could not fix it just gave up. All of the tech claim to "not hear anything" until I rewind it for them. My wife does not notice the glitches near as often as I do either, I have to point them out and rewind them, then she hears them. It drives me insane.

I am very curious as to what you find out. Please keep us updated!

-Aaron


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

"I will"
Part of "the problem" is to get the right people to "look into it".
In a large corp, it's very easy to have everyone says "it's not my problem" and point [any] somewhere else.
"Techs" can only do so much. 
CSRs [level one, etc.] can only do "so much". 
I got kind of PO'd when I heard the broadcast center spend 25 min on "the problem" only to report there was none.
To DirecTV's credit, they have pursued "my complaint" further.
It also didn't hurt to have some of those things under my username over there < as I'm not "just another customer" [who might not have a clue as to what/how things work].

I will come back to this thread with any updates [they'll let me post] and hope those that do have this problem, keep posting here, so I can "point" them to other DMAs or National channels.

In my case, it helped to have recordings ready so they could "see" [hear] what the problem is.
Everybody that "I've talked to" has shown interest in the problem.


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## deltafowler (Aug 28, 2007)

"I've" had "these" "problems" with "my" system "too" [as well].


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Everyone who's commented on the original 'Brrrrip' problem needs to step back a bit and follow the signal path; since virtually everyone doesn't have access to the original signal, with the obvious exception to OTA HD for those locals carried by DirecTV, the signal path of the 'national' through the DirecTV system is as follows:

(Reception systems, C-Band/OTA etc, and/or backhauls to uplinks)

Encoders, either Harmonic or Tandberg

statistical multiplexer, Harmonic DiviTrackIP

Digital Video routing system, Chyron Pro-Bel Eclipse switcher

who knows what else in the system signal path

Sitting here at the final end of the system, where the problem originates is like throwing rocks at the DirecTV HQ and hoping that you hit the right office of the technical director. Some channels, particularly LIL HD, seem to be affected to the point where one only has to wait a few minutes, others almost not a all (several days between effects)(note that nobody has ever seen it on the OTA feed!). National channels (I use HDNetMovies as an example as I watch it all the time), have had 'spells' of bad days/weeks of problems, then it all of a sudden 'cures' itself and goes for weeks without any noticeable problems.

Heavily viewed channels like CNN-HD and CNBC-HD are also rarely affected, although when they appear to go through a 'bad spot' of problems, something gets 'fixed' and voila, the problems disappear. It's rather obvious to me that the problem is 'whacked' by the tech guys when it gets bad, and then the problem pops up elsewhere. The 'Wack a Mole' troubleshooting technique at work.

I don't think until a concerted effort is made, and there are (as I described) so many pieces in the 'chain', and the problem has existed for so long, that either, as I originally speculated, inherently a uncorrectable problem with some piece of equipment (the encoders?), that it's going to continue until at some future (unknown) date, it will all of a sudden disappear.

A clue (small, but maybe important) is that I've seen the effect only ONCE in the 12+ weeks of NFL-ST, EXCEPT for the NBC (local HD) and Monday Night (ESPN) games (where it exists all the time). And I am GLUED to the set (as the cash flies from my pocket!) Sunday mornings/afternoons. The Thursday night NFL network games, the jury is still out on that.

Newer encoders (Harmonic) with NFL-ST? Signals not routed through a part of the signal system that others go through? All good questions. And it has absolutely NOTHING to do with customers reception equipment or systems.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

1948GG said:


> Everyone who's commented on the original 'Brrrrip' problem needs to step back a bit and follow the signal path; since virtually everyone doesn't have access to the original signal, with the obvious exception to OTA HD for those locals carried by DirecTV, the signal path of the 'national' through the DirecTV system is as follows:
> 
> (Reception systems, C-Band/OTA etc, and/or backhauls to uplinks)
> 
> ...


So where [which] is the Dobly encoding done?


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## WB3FFV (Mar 2, 2007)

veryoldschool, have you ever heard anymore back from your issues. I have the same issue going on here at my place (Maryland), enough so that my wife is *****ing about it. It's most prevalent on the local channels (MPT is horrible for it), but does happen at times on the network channels as well.

My main system is a nice home theater setup, using an HR20-700, feeding to my HT Processor via TOSlink, and it has the issue. Also up in my master bedroom, I have an HR22-100 unit, connected to my plasma panel via HDMI, and it also exhibits the same problems. So that kinda rules out it just being the equipment at one location or the other. Also my signals are in the 90+ range, so I am sure the dish is well aligned.

I would love to find a resolution to this, but as I expect, it probably has nothing to do with the equipment on my end, well unless both HR's are bad, and I doubt that..


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

WB3FFV said:


> I would love to find a resolution to this, but as I expect, it probably has nothing to do with the equipment on my end, well unless both HR's are bad, and I doubt that..


It absolutely does not have anything to do with your equipment. Everyone is experiencing it to some extent, whether they are conscious of it or not.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

WB3FFV said:


> veryoldschool, have you ever heard anymore back from your issues. I have the same issue going on here at my place (Maryland), enough so that my wife is *****ing about it. It's most prevalent on the local channels (MPT is horrible for it), but does happen at times on the network channels as well.
> 
> My main system is a nice home theater setup, using an HR20-700, feeding to my HT Processor via TOSlink, and it has the issue. Also up in my master bedroom, I have an HR22-100 unit, connected to my plasma panel via HDMI, and it also exhibits the same problems. So that kinda rules out it just being the equipment at one location or the other. Also my signals are in the 90+ range, so I am sure the dish is well aligned.
> 
> I would love to find a resolution to this, but as I expect, it probably has nothing to do with the equipment on my end, well unless both HR's are bad, and I doubt that..


This has been "kicked around" a bit more here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=152754


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## WB3FFV (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks VOS, a good and interesting thread indeed. At least I can tell wifey it's not all my stuff causing the issue.. Granted she dearly loves my Pioneer Elite TV and Martin Logan speakers.. LOL


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