# Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) Interrupting Power



## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I've had a small APC 500 VA UPS in my bedroom for almost 5 years now. The only things plugged into it are my old cathode-ray tube TV, VCR, and DirecTiVo DVR. At 4:30 a.m. Wednesday, I hear a loud, single BEEEEEP. I'm looking around and see that the VCR clock has lost power, and the DVR green light is on, meaning it has to be rebooting. Translation: the UPS lost power momentarily, even though it is plugged in and there was no power outage. That night, I install the UPS software on my computer and connect it to the UPS in order to disable audible alarms. It says that the battery is fully charged and could run for 49 minutes, which is fine because I installed a standby backup generator this winter, which kicks in after 10 seconds of no power. I reset the VCR clock.

The next morning at 5 a.m., BEEEEEP (despite disabling audible alarms the night before). VCR clock out, DVR rebooting, with the UPS plugged in and no power outage. I get up and see that the UPS green light is on, as it should be. What gives? I come out of the shower at 7 a.m. and see the DVR is rebooting again. That's it. I unplug and disconnect everything. I can't have the UPS bothering me in the middle of the night and the DVR rebooting again and again when the UPS cuts power.

I ordered a new UPS but keep wondering how on earth could this possibly happen? The UPS was plugged in, the green light was on, there was no power outage, and the software said the battery was fully charged with 49 minutes runtime available. Yet the thing beeped and cut power to my VCR and DVR two days in a row. Is it defective? Is this common? Has anyone ever heard of this?  I can't find reference to any similar problem on a Google search.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Sounds like the battery has failed. With it fully charged (or saying so), plug a lamp into it, and see how long it actually runs. Ill bet it doesnt run very long at all.

If its not the battery, your charging circuit probably has a bad capacitor.


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## dogbreath (Apr 26, 2006)

UPS batteries normally last about 3 years. You can replace the battery if the charging system is still good.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

What puzzles me is even if the battery failed, why would power be cut if the UPS was plugged in?

I'll try the lamp test tomorrow, but I already have another small UPS on order. (I was afraid to simply get a new battery in case the UPS was defective.) What worries me is that I have a bigger UPS downstairs (that's never given me a problem yet) that I have my HR24, DVD burner, and Xbox plugged into. Though bigger, it's just as old as the other but would be harder to replace because of all the interconnections in back of the downstairs setup.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I always test my UPS about once every 6 months just to make sure its working ok. Power down the critical stuff (DVR, computer), and see how long it runs compared to what it tells me when I start.

Ive had good luck with APC. Use a 1500VA unit for the media closet. HTPC server is on a smaller off brand which has already failed once, and was replaced under warranty.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

That's what I have too, APC. The ?defective one is a 500 VA.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Dr_J said:


> That's what I have too, APC. The ?defective one is a 500 VA.


Its hard to say what is causing the problem. If it lost power, or had a surge that caused it to switch to battery, and the battery is bad, it would fail, causing those reboots. But if the charging circuit is bad, I dont know how you could test that. APC might have a replacement battery for it. The short beeps usually mean power fail, on backup. The long beep usually means you are on your batteries last leg before shutdown.

On my failed unit, that is what it did. It would just give a solid tone, and everything quit. The company never told me what was wrong with it, they just replaced it.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

You may have been having momentary glitches on that outlet that were covered by the UPS doing the job it should.

Some units make it easy to replace the batteries. Others make it nearly impossible.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I attempted the lamp test this morning. The UPS (an APC Back-UPS ES 500, by the way) had been unplugged since Thursday morning. I unplugged all the important stuff, plugged in the lamp, plugged in the UPS, and then turned it on. The lamp came on, and the green light came on the UPS. Five seconds later, power was cut, all the UPS lights went out, and it emitted a long, continuous BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP that wouldn't stop until I held in the power button for a few seconds. I rinsed and repeated--same thing.

Here's the concept I can't wrap my head around. Even if the battery is completely dead, why would the UPS cut power if it's plugged in??? No red light warning that battery failure is imminent. No nothing. Just no power and one long, continuous BEEP, even with it plugged in.

Losing a small UPS and not having a bedroom cathode-ray tube TV, VCR, and DirecTiVo for a few days doesn't even register on my worry radar. What freaks me out is the possibility that the same thing could happen to my bigger UPS (an APC Back-UPS XS 1500) downstairs, where my HR24, DVD burner, and Xbox are connected and is just as old (almost 5 years) as the one upstairs. When I lost power for 48 hours during Hurricane Irene last year, the big UPS maintained power for over 2 1/2 hours before failing. (The one upstairs didn't last an hour.) After that experience, I bought a whole-home standby generator that kicks in after there's no power for 10 seconds. I just need the UPS battery to hold on for 10 seconds before the generator kicks in, so I really don't want to buy a new battery. However, if UPS's are allowed to cut power without warning whenever the battery needs replacing, even if plugged in, that really freaks me out and very much shakes my confidence in UPS's.


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## TXD16 (Oct 30, 2008)

If you've never replaced the battery in the five years you've owned the UPS, the battery is dead, and a dead battery can cause a UPS to do seemingly strange things.


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## Super Dave (Mar 5, 2010)

On the better UPSs the battery is what really powers your equipment, even if you are plugged in. The line voltage varies so much that it acts as a buffer or conditioner depending on the unit, delivering a nice constant flow and absorbing all of the shocks.
I installed a Whole House Suppressor from Home Depot for under $60 that pre-conditions the entire house, but I still use suppression on my sensitive electrical products. I do notice a difference, my lights no longer "flicker".


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

The lead-acid battery in these devices need to be replaced every 3-5 years. Generally 3-4 years I see on the cheaper models and 5-6 years on the better models. But this doesn't mean you can't have a battery go bad in a year or have one last a good 7 years. (I've never seen one go much beyond 7 years).
Generally it's the heat inside these compact devices that kill the battery. Better units isolate the battery from this heat better. Plus better units regulate the charging better to thier battery, ususally making for better life.

When a lead-acid battery goes bye bye, it's usually from sulfate that builds up between the plates in the battery. This shorting that section out. Enough build up and you get completely bad cells. Enough completely bad cells and the whole battery becomes a current sink (short).

*So.... if you don't follow the manufacture's instructions. And test your battery once in awhile. So as to replace it when it shows signs of degrading. You end of with a battery that shorts out your UPS - damaging the whole thing. Buy a new one.*

[edit]: Don't know if this is what happened to the original poster's unit. Certainly a battery can be good and the unit itself can go bad (especially if it has taken a surge at some point). If he were to take the battery out and test it independently, this would tell him a lot. It doesn't sound like he has the knowledge to do this but if there is a Batteries Plus store near by, they might still offer that service.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I have the new UPS in place upstairs, and it's fine. I did a self-test on the bigger UPS downstairs that's almost 5 years old, and it checked out fine. The battery allegedly still fills the charge meter, and no error messages were seen.

Given this discussion, I would certainly replace the battery if need be. However, I always thought that the UPS would tell me through red lights, beeps, and/or error messages that a battery needed replacement. The old one upstairs never gave me a warning or red light to replace the battery. It just cut power and emitted a loud BEEEEEEEEP in the middle of the night. I wouldn't have thought that cutting power without warning would be the UPS's way of saying to change the battery.

The one upstairs was very easy to swap out. The one downstairs will not be so easy, and I'd hate to replace the battery now if it still may have a couple of years of life in it. But if it's going to be like the old one upstairs and not give me a warning when it's about to fail, then that puts me in a conundrum.


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## PokerJoker (Apr 12, 2008)

You're finding out just how difficult it is for a device to detect the true condition of its own battery. (You're also learning how much the typical UPS software lies about what is happening.) The problem is that this is chemistry you're dealing with here, not cut-and-dried digital electronics.

You need a new battery, for sure. 5 years is way past their usual life span. 

Actually I wonder if you might need a bit bigger UPS. That "500VA" rating is also, shall we say, marketing-driven, and does not reflect the actual capacity in watts. You might actually only be able to put less that 300 watts of load on that thing. And the devices you listed (especially that CRT TV) might be pushing that total a bit.

Keith


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

PokerJoker said:


> You're finding out just how difficult it is for a device to detect the true condition of its own battery. (You're also learning how much the typical UPS software lies about what is happening.) The problem is that this is chemistry you're dealing with here, not cut-and-dried digital electronics.
> 
> You need a new battery, for sure. 5 years is way past their usual life span.
> 
> ...


You just beat me to it. Yeah, the ratings you see on the boxes of UPS devices are very misleading. That 500 VA rating includes Power Factor in the equation that comes up with 500 VA and is very misleading. Always go with the actual wattage rating that is also on the box.

Just checked an APC box and it rates the UPS at 550VA and 350W. Now how's Joe Sixpack supposed to know what that means? The only reason I know is I called up APC and Tripplite and got them to explain to me exactly what those ratings mean.

Long story short: Disregard the higher "VA" rating (I know VxA=W is the proper equation for wattage in a resistive device, but disregard it, it has little to do with the actual wattage you can expect to hookup to the UPS). I would recommend using the "80%" rule and only plugging devices into the UPS that total 80% of the rated wattage of the UPS.

Keith is also correct about that TV on the UPS. That UPS is too small for a TV, it's a miracle the battery lasted 5 years.

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. I only have it to protect the DVR, so I'll take the TV right off of it and put it on surge protection only. The new one upstairs is only 450 VA. The downstairs one is 1500 VA and is used for the DVR, Xbox, and DVD burner; the TV is not connected.


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

Dr_J said:


> Thanks for the advice. I only have it to protect the DVR, so I'll take the TV right off of it and put it on surge protection only. The new one upstairs is only 450 VA. The downstairs one is 1500 VA and is used for the DVR, Xbox, and DVD burner; the TV is not connected.


Just like the gentleman before said, you should get out of the habit of quoting VA ratings. They are just about meaningless for the purpose (kind of like the published contrast ratios on TVs).
Look for the wattage rating of the UPS, ignore the VA and never quote it.

Also stated above: Add up your total wattage that your devices use and NEVER exceed the wattage rating of the UPS. Designing your load less than 80% of total available is sound advice. 
In fact, if you had a large CRT TV on that little UPS upstairs with the DVR, that may very well be what your problem was. It held out as long as it could but you were overloading the UPS this whole time - it finally gave out and started failing periodically on you.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I agree. If you want any run time at all during a power failure, APC recommends a VA rating of about 2X-3X the actual wattage usage, so for ~550 watts, you would need a 1500VA UPS. A 450VA UPS would only be good for about 150-200W load.

I think the reason they use VA is because uninformed people just assume Volts x Amps VA = Watts, but that isnt taking into effect the Power Factor which gets really hairy unless you are a math major.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I appreciate this discussion. I only quoted the 450 VA because that's all I could remember off the top of my head; I didn't have the box in front of me. I took the CRT TV off of the battery outlet and put it on surge protection only last night.

Maybe I'm just being naive about how a UPS works, but logically, I would have thought that the wattage issue would only apply during a power failure. If the power is on, the electrical outlet should be supplying the power, not the battery. Thus, I never considered having the TV plugged into the battery outlet as a big deal. If I were watching TV and the power went out, I would have immediately shut off the DVR gracefully and then shut off the TV. There shouldn't have been time for wattage overload.

Edit: I see one of the responses above: "On the better UPSs the battery is what really powers your equipment, even if you are plugged in. The line voltage varies so much that it acts as a buffer or conditioner depending on the unit, delivering a nice constant flow and absorbing all of the shocks." Of course, the one upstairs is not one of the better UPS's.


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

Dr_J;3013787 There shouldn't have been time for wattage overload.
Edit: I see one of the responses above: "On the better UPSs the battery is what really powers your equipment said:


> That is why you want to leave the TV on the UPS as it filters the voltage-When you lose ALL power and the ups is running Turn the TV off. The TV will thank you for leaving it on the UPS as it will last much longer.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Davenlr said:


> I agree. If you want any run time at all during a power failure, APC recommends a VA rating of about 2X-3X the actual wattage usage, so for ~550 watts, you would need a 1500VA UPS. A 450VA UPS would only be good for about 150-200W load.
> 
> *I think the reason they use VA is because uninformed people just assume Volts x Amps VA = Watts, but that isnt taking into effect the Power Factor which gets really hairy unless you are a math major*.


That's a practice that needs to stop. Apparently all the manufacturers use this kind of ambiguous wording to trick unknowing folks into buying UPS devices. Anyone with any knowledge of electricity knows that W=VA is the equation for determining the wattage of a resistive load and that equation can also be used as a quick ballpark determination of rough wattage used by inductive loads, not precise, but close enough.

Why would manufacturers of UPS devices do this? If you buy a 550VA and disregard the wattage rating and load up the UPS to ~ 500W, you're gonna need a new UPS pretty quickly. Scurrilous way to drive up sales.

Rich


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

rich-It only apply's to Run- Time When the power's off!! Most folks don't use the unit to Run The TV or Computer When the power fails - It allows for the computer or User to turn off (in this case) the TV if it in use. (being watched) OH!! S$$$ the power went off ,, I think I'll turn off the TV. 

If you need a true UPS for your HOme " Then You would instal a Propane,Natural Gas, Or Fuel oil Generator . for Full Run time after the grid fails.

the math only applies to any equipment you need to run after power fail- Of course you know that already.


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

WestDC said:


> That is why you want to leave the TV on the UPS as it filters the voltage-When you lose ALL power and the ups is running Turn the TV off. The TV will thank you for leaving it on the UPS as it will last much longer.


Re-read what UPS he is using upstairs and what TV is on it. (i.e. a low wattage UPS and a TV that draws more power than it is designed to supply).
You are telling him to do something that is going to eventually DAMAGE his UPS again!


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

John Williams said:


> Re-read what UPS he is using upstairs and what TV is on it. (i.e. a low wattage UPS and a TV that draws more power than it is designed to supply).
> You are telling him to do something that is going to eventually DAMAGE his UPS again!


The Ups only supply's 119 vac - constant-The TV requires that as well - The consumption only occurs when the ac POWER FAILS. When it fails turn the TV off -end of draw. The ups is not harmed. It does it's job, he could go up to a 650 or a 1500 Ups. However the 500 lasted 5yrs - so a larger UPS may be all he needs.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

WestDC said:


> rich-It only apply's to Run- Time When the power's off!! Most folks don't use the unit to Run The TV or Computer When the power fails - It allows for the computer or User to turn off (in this case) the TV if it in use. (being watched) OH!! S$$$ the power went off ,, I think I'll turn off the TV.
> 
> If you need a true UPS for your HOme " Then You would instal a Propane,Natural Gas, Or Fuel oil Generator . for Full Run time after the grid fails.
> 
> the math only applies to any equipment you need to run after power fail- Of course you know that already.


Yup, I do know that. But how many folks out there just merrily keep watching TV when the power goes out? Betcha it's a whole lot of people that do that. On those itty-bitty APCs.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

John Williams said:


> Re-read what UPS he is using upstairs and what TV is on it. (i.e. a low wattage UPS and a TV that draws more power than it is designed to supply).
> You are telling him to do something that is going to eventually DAMAGE his UPS again!


You have to pay a whole lot of money for a UPS that produces a clean sine wave. And to get a UPS that gives you constant voltage on a clean sine wave you have to spend even more. How much? We'll have to ask *Richierich*, I know he's got the more expensive models, but I don't know if his are constant voltage devices.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

WestDC said:


> The Ups only supply's 119 vac - constant-The TV requires that as well - The consumption only occurs when the ac POWER FAILS. When it fails turn the TV off -end of draw. The ups is not harmed. It does it's job, he could go up to a 650 or a 1500 Ups. However the 500 lasted 5yrs - so a larger UPS may be all he needs.


A really expensive UPS will take the voltage input and keep it constant and clean when the power is on. In the area I live in, it would be a ridiculous expense. My power goes off, most of my UPS devices are immediately shut down. The only time I leave one on is if it's recording something I really want to see and then I use my 1000W UPS. For just one or two HRs.

Rich


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

WestDC said:


> ....The consumption only occurs when the ac POWER FAILS. When it fails turn the TV off -end of draw. The ups is not harmed....


You do realize what you just said right.
This is like saying: I smoked crack once, no damage done. I ran my car with no oil in it once, no damage done.
YES!!!!!! it does damage.

If you put a load that exceeds what the UPS can handle. Then the second the inverter comes into the circuit and is running on battery, it is being stressed. Enough stress.... failure.
Or are you saying that he NEVER has loss of power or power fluctuations. If so, then why would he even need a UPS at all.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I very seldom use the bedroom TV anymore, particularly since I have a 60" plasma 3DTV downstairs. However, in the almost 5 years that I had the old UPS, the power never went out while I was watching TV. The only devices that were on the battery during a power outage were the VCR clock and DVR in standby. The only reason I even got a UPS was because of advice elsewhere in these forums that they stabilize the line current going to the DVR or some such reason, potentially extending its life. This summer, I will have had this bedroom DirecTiVo for 7 years. My HR20 on the UPS downstairs was still going strong after 4+ years when I upgraded to the HR24 for 3D.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> I very seldom use the bedroom TV anymore, particularly since I have a 60" plasma 3DTV downstairs. However, in the almost 5 years that I had the old UPS, the power never went out while I was watching TV. The only devices that were on the battery during a power outage were the VCR clock and DVR in standby. The only reason I even got a UPS was because of advice elsewhere in these forums that they stabilize the line current going to the DVR or some such reason, potentially extending its life. This summer, I will have had this bedroom DirecTiVo for 7 years. My HR20 on the UPS downstairs was still going strong after 4+ years when I upgraded to the HR24 for 3D.


There is no such thing as "line current" in the context you used the phrase. What you meant was the stabilization of voltage, which you're not gonna get from anything but a really expensive UPS.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Rich said:


> There is no such thing as "line current" in the context you used the phrase. What you meant was the stabilization of voltage, which you're not gonna get from anything but a really expensive UPS.
> 
> Rich


Yeah...what he said. 

This is a topic where I know Rich has alot of knowledge and experience.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Rich said:


> There is no such thing as "line current" in the context you used the phrase. What you meant was the stabilization of voltage, which you're not gonna get from anything but a really expensive UPS.
> 
> Rich


Thanks for the clarification. I guess I've just been lucky the DVR's have lasted as long as they have.  The very first DirecTiVo I had only lasted two years before it started freezing due to likely hard drive failure.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I guess I've just been lucky the DVR's have lasted as long as they have.  The very first DirecTiVo I had only lasted two years before it started freezing due to likely hard drive failure.


The DVRs I've got that aren't on UPS devices have run just as well as those on my UPS devices. I just went thru a horrible experience with the power supplied to my home. I kept losing (and I'm making this simple to understand) one hot wire coming into my home and also had problems with the neutral. Finally found the problem, related to a tree falling on my wires from the pole last year. No electronic or electrical equipment was adversely affected in my home. I've got eight Panny plasmas and none of them are on UPS devices and none were harmed and all twelve of my HRs came thru without problems.

UPS devices are fine to have, but I've always questioned the need for them. The only reason I got them was that the 20-700s became very sensitive to voltage dips or very brief outages, outages that had no effect on any other electronic or electric devices. Whatever happened to the 20-700s has been fixed, I haven't seen any of them that are not on UPS reboot recently.

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

I think they're good to have to prevent recording interruption, which may have been one of the prime reasons I got a UPS in the first place. I remember scheduling something to record on a Sunday, was away for that day, but noticed a line of popup thunderstorms coming through near home on the radar right around the time the recording was supposed to be happening. When I got home, I saw the recording was ruined, likely due to a momentary power outage.


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## jerry downing (Mar 7, 2004)

From information I got from the APC web site, a continuous beep is telling you of an overload. I solved my problem by purchasing a larger UPS and using the small one to run my DVR. Both UPS's performed well during a brief power outage today.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jerry downing said:


> From information I got from the APC web site, a continuous beep is telling you of an overload. I solved my problem by purchasing a larger UPS and using the small one to run my DVR. Both UPS's performed well during a brief power outage today.


Again, use the 80% method and that will never happen. Shortly put, don't put more than 80% of the UPS device's capacity on it. Just add up the wattage of the devices you are putting on the UPS and keep it at 80% of the WATTAGE rating. Disregard the VA rating.

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

jerry downing said:


> From information I got from the APC web site, a continuous beep is telling you of an overload. I solved my problem by purchasing a larger UPS and using the small one to run my DVR. Both UPS's performed well during a brief power outage today.


At the time of the continuous beep, the only thing connected to the old, small UPS was a lamp with a 60-watt bulb. So that old UPS has to be broken. The new, small UPS has been connected for a few weeks now with no issues. Now I just have to decide how to proceed with the big UPS downstairs that's almost 5 years old but has not given me a single problem so far.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> At the time of the continuous beep, the only thing connected to the old, small UPS was a lamp with a 60-watt bulb. So that old UPS has to be broken. The new, small UPS has been connected for a few weeks now with no issues. Now I just have to decide how to proceed with the big UPS downstairs that's almost 5 years old but has not given me a single problem so far.


Batteries are like milk, if you gotta smell milk to see if it's good throw it out. If you have doubts about a battery, replace it.

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Rich said:


> Batteries are like milk, if you gotta smell milk to see if it's good throw it out. If you have doubts about a battery, replace it.
> 
> Rich


Interesting way of looking at it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> Interesting way of looking at it.


Thanx.....

Rich


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

dogbreath said:


> UPS batteries normally last about 3 years. You can replace the battery if the charging system is still good.


During the last year I replaced two 4 year old Belkin UPS units. Similar thing, alarm in the middle of the night. In both cases the UPS units were hot to the touch and batteries were bulging. 1500VA APC units are now holding down the fort.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

I have an APC XS1500 (will never buy this brand again) and it did the same thing. Although the battery is just fine. And APC is no help unless you can be more persistent than they can be ignorant. APC units have power switch codes. Although there is what I listed below, I accidentally stumbled on holding in the power button until the unit does, as a DVR would, a "power or soft" reset. It straightened my XS1500 right out. Since I have only purchased Tripp and Cyberpower UPS' and never have any of the strangeness as I have with APC. APC is passé. There are far better brands with great features out there now.

Wrenched from APC Support:



> The self test is performed on the unit to check the Battery integrity. You can perform a Self test on the UPS by just turning it Off and On. If the UPS passes the self test only the Green Online LED would be lit steady on the unit. In case if the unit fails the self test then RED replace battery LED would be lit steady along with the Green Online LED indicating Battery in the unit is bad and must be replaced.
> 
> The cold start test is performed on the unit to check the unit itself. Here are the Steps of 'Cold Start' to test the UPS itself:
> 
> ...


Hope this helps.


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## tinmanohio (Feb 7, 2010)

Great thread! Just what I was looking for. Many of my question have been answered but now I would like to go one step farther. Generators have been mentioned and most general purpose generators do not provide a clean power source. It has been mentioned that a good UPS will clean up voltage but what about the sine wave? Is there a unit that will take a 110-120 volt input from a generator and put out a pure sine wave as well as steady voltage? 

When we have a power outage I refuse to connect my more expensive devices to our generator because it is not an inverter promising pure power. Others do and appear to get away with it, at least short term.

Any help on this topic would be appreciated.

Just read page 2 sorry


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/power.html


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

tinmanohio said:


> Great thread! Just what I was looking for. Many of my question have been answered but now I would like to go one step farther. Generators have been mentioned and most general purpose generators do not provide a clean power source. It has been mentioned that a good UPS will clean up voltage but what about the sine wave? Is there a unit that will take a 110-120 volt input from a generator and put out a pure sine wave as well as steady voltage?
> 
> When we have a power outage I refuse to connect my more expensive devices to our generator because it is not an inverter promising pure power. Others do and appear to get away with it, at least short term.
> 
> ...


You can get them, they're just more expensive.

I've been tempted to pick up a "silly scope" somewhere and see just how bad the AC output of my generator is. They have to be putting out a sine wave, there's no DC in the equation at all. I've always wondered why a generator would put out dirty voltage.

Rich


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

Over on a professionals forum board, this was actually discussed in the last few days. One of the dealers posted pics from his oscilloscope, that he had taken from (what was suppose to be) a high quality generator. It was unbeliveable how bad the power was from that generator. The oscilloscope's frequency calculator was actually assigning a value of about 120Hz to the signal, the 2nd order harmonics were so bad.
Anyway, what started the discussion was several dealers had customer's homes running on generators recently from the power outages. They were called in because many systems had stopped working. They found surge protectors, UPS, etc... were damaged from the generators. Being all these were of sacrificial design (MOV based mostly), they had done just that.

I discussed this at length either in this thread or another one not long ago, how if you read the instructions on a power inverter (12VDC to 110VAC), it out right tells you NOT to use with sensitive electronic devices. The sine wave is very square and can cause damage to such devices.
Generators are even worse than inverters when it comes to power quality. Although I don't know if the instructions for those warn of using sensitive electronic equipment on them, it should!


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## tinmanohio (Feb 7, 2010)

John Williams said:


> http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/power.html


Thats what I had in mind but my power would have to be out for more than a couple days at a time for me to spend that much. Actually Generac has a 2000 watt generator/inverter promissing clean power for sensitive electronics for $650. For less money I could increase my overall generating capacity by adding the generac just for my home theater.

Sorry if I have hijacked this thread. I know it was about UPS units and we are going in a different direction now.

Rich, I have often wondered how far off the frequency could be myself and how far over or under is too far.


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

tinmanohio said:


> Actually Generac has a 2000 watt generator/inverter promissing clean power for sensitive electronics for $650. For less money I could increase my overall generating capacity by adding the generac just for my home theater.


And if you believe that, I have some beach front property in Mexico I'll sell you cheap.
Seriously, there are not to many products on the market these days, that doesn't have lies or stretches of truths to the marketing. Even the link I supplied above: although great product, some of their claims are a bit exaggerated.


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## tinmanohio (Feb 7, 2010)

John Williams said:


> Over on a professionals forum board, this was actually discussed in the last few days. One of the dealers posted pics from his oscilloscope, that he had taken from (what was suppose to be) a high quality generator. It was unbeliveable how bad the power was from that generator. The oscilloscope's frequency calculator was actually assigning a value of about 120Hz to the signal, the 2nd order harmonics were so bad.
> Anyway, what started the discussion was several dealers had customer's homes running on generators recently from the power outages. They were called in because many systems had stopped working. They found surge protectors, UPS, etc... were damaged from the generators. Being all these were of sacrificial design (MOV based mostly), they had done just that.
> 
> I discussed this at length either in this thread or another one not long ago, how if you read the instructions on a power inverter (12VDC to 110VAC), it out right tells you NOT to use with sensitive electronic devices. The sine wave is very square and can cause damage to such devices.
> Generators are even worse than inverters when it comes to power quality. Although I don't know if the instructions for those warn of using sensitive electronic equipment on them, it should!


This is exactly the information I have heard about and the reason I resist plugging in my home theater. I think until I am certain I have a clean power source I will just chance my cheap bedroom TV when on generator power. That said, what doesn't have sensitive electronics in it today? There are three separate circuit boards in my refrigerator. I think our washing machine has more computing power than my first Tandy desk top!:lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

John Williams said:


> Over on a professionals forum board, this was actually discussed in the last few days. One of the dealers posted pics from his oscilloscope, that he had taken from (what was suppose to be) a high quality generator. It was unbeliveable how bad the power was from that generator. The oscilloscope's frequency calculator was actually assigning a value of about 120Hz to the signal, the 2nd order harmonics were so bad.
> Anyway, what started the discussion was several dealers had customer's homes running on generators recently from the power outages. They were called in because many systems had stopped working. They found surge protectors, UPS, etc... were damaged from the generators. Being all these were of sacrificial design (MOV based mostly), they had done just that.


That bad, huh? Can't help but wonder why a generator can't be made to put out a near perfect voltage sine wave, but I wonder about a lot of things that are not as I think they should be. Generators have been around for a long time and I'd think making them run with a near perfect voltage would be easy. Oh well, another assumption demolished. I've never tried a cheap generator on any electronics, always been a bit leery of the things because of what I've read about them.



> I discussed this at length either in this thread or another one not long ago, how if you read the instructions on a power inverter (12VDC to 110VAC), it out right tells you NOT to use with sensitive electronic devices. The sine wave is very square and can cause damage to such devices.


I think what you're seeing in inverters is "chopped DC" that approximates AC voltage. Looks like a series of blocks when viewed on an oscilloscope. The blocks being the + to - reversal seen on AC sine waves.



> Generators are even worse than inverters when it comes to power quality. Although I don't know if the instructions for those warn of using sensitive electronic equipment on them, it should!


Thanx, this gives me a better picture of what I didn't understand about gennies.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

My parents have a permanent home generator installed for their home (natural gas unit.) I can't recall the manufacturer currently, but shortly after install I checked the output with an o-scope and it was the equivilent of what a utility would provide. 

With the exception of giving an occasional helping hand with a shipboard generator in the Navy, I can't say I have much in the way of experience with generators in general. In my experience though, there are units that do have quality sine output. It would be a shame for this not to be common among high end generators...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

John Williams said:


> And if you believe that, I have some beach front property in Mexico I'll sell you cheap.
> Seriously, there are not to many products on the market these days, that doesn't have lies or stretches of truths to the marketing. Even the link I supplied above: although great product, some of their claims are a bit exaggerated.


Years ago, when we first started using PCs, I installed many Sola transformers that would keep voltage at about a steady 117VAC. Expensive, but effective. Your link seemed to be about similar devices. The Solas did work very well, but we found them unnecessary. We had our own substations and we could regulate our voltage from them. Made the Solas redundant, but didn't stop people from buying them.

Rich


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## John Williams (Oct 5, 2011)

dsw2112 said:


> My parents have a permanent home generator installed for their home (natural gas unit.) I can't recall the manufacturer currently, but shortly after install I checked the output with an o-scope and it was the equivilent of what a utility would provide.
> 
> With the exception of giving an occasional helping hand with a shipboard generator in the Navy, I can't say I have much in the way of experience with generators in general. In my experience though, there are units that do have quality sine output. It would be a shame for this not to be common among high end generators...


The dealer who sampled that generator, never said what brand it was. I too have not had a lot of expereince with them and found it disturbing the amount of people that were having major issues with generators recently.
I remember many years ago having a customer have major problems with one and the warnings back then about them (mostly about low voltages that time).

It shouldn't be that hard to get a generator to produce the proper power. But it does cost money. The raw material in parts needed to produce the clean power are a constant. So when you see a 2000 watt generator for less then $700 and they say it has perfect output, you know for a fact they are full of s#@!
It would be nice to know what generators on the market do, do it right. And at what price point. I have an oscilloscope myself (older CRT model) but can't see myself going around to every generator dealer, asking for a demo and test.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

John Williams said:


> The dealer who sampled that generator, never said what brand it was. I too have not had a lot of expereince with them and found it disturbing the amount of people that were having major issues with generators recently.
> I remember many years ago having a customer have major problems with one and the warnings back then about them (mostly about low voltages that time).
> 
> It shouldn't be that hard to get a generator to produce the proper power. But it does cost money. The raw material in parts needed to produce the clean power are a constant. So when you see a 2000 watt generator for less then $700 and they say it has perfect output, you know for a fact they are full of s#@!
> It would be nice to know what generators on the market do, do it right. And at what price point. I have an oscilloscope myself (older CRT model) but can't see myself going around to every generator dealer, asking for a demo and test.


I was recently working on some power distribution problems involving a septic system and well that were being powered by a generator and, using my old (gotta be ~ 25 years old, it's a monster but still works like it did the day Fluke gave it to me to replace the Fluke that blew up in my hands. Another story for another time) Fluke and no matter how much I tried I could see no fluctuations in voltage, either 120 or 220. I know the Flukes are not meant for that type of application, but I thought with a generator, I would see some fluctuations. I guess the silly scopes are still the only way to do it.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

John Williams said:


> ...It would be nice to know what generators on the market do, do it right. And at what price point. I have an oscilloscope myself (older CRT model) but can't see myself going around to every generator dealer, asking for a demo and test...


I go back and forth about purchasing a generator, but our power has been extremely reliable and just haven't been able to bring myself to do it currently. Of course, you know what they say, past performance is not an indication of future results :lol: Given what I've heard, I'd have to do some O-scope testing before purchasing/installing a unit.

I'm guessing there's probably a forum with folks who know/have tested home generators pretty thoroughly. Should anyone have a link (by PM would be fine) I'd certainly appreciate it.


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## tinmanohio (Feb 7, 2010)

If there were such a thing as "truth in advertising" we wouldn't be having much of this conversation. Here is a page from Honda, take it for what it is worth to you. http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i
Scroll down and see the little picture of the sine wave. Then under "applications" it specifically mentions incandescent lights. Makes me want to ask if CFL's or LED's are a problem and if so what happened to "power just like from the utility"? I would love to take one of these someplace and have it tested.


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> My parents have a permanent home generator installed for their home (natural gas unit.) I can't recall the manufacturer currently, but shortly after install I checked the output with an o-scope and it was the equivilent of what a utility would provide.


That's what I just got, a whole-home, natural gas, standby generator from Generac, not one of those portable ones that you have to pour fuel into. Here's hoping it provides clean power if necessary. After being without power for 48 hours after Hurricane Irene (which was a short length of time compared to some nearby areas), I said I would never go through that again.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

tinmanohio said:


> If there were such a thing as "truth in advertising" we wouldn't be having much of this conversation. Here is a page from Honda, take it for what it is worth to you. http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu2000i
> Scroll down and see the little picture of the sine wave. Then under "applications" it specifically mentions incandescent lights. Makes me want to ask if CFL's or LED's are a problem and if so what happened to "power just like from the utility"? I would love to take one of these someplace and have it tested.


That sine wave picture illustrates a sine wave from an inverter. Enlarge it and you'll see the choppiness of the sine wave. That would give me pause to wonder how it would work with electronics.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> That's what I just got, a whole-home, natural gas, standby generator from Generac, not one of those portable ones that you have to pour fuel into. Here's hoping it provides clean power if necessary. After being without power for 48 hours after Hurricane Irene (which was a short length of time compared to some nearby areas), I said I would never go through that again.


I've often wondered if folks just pour the gas into the generators while they are running. Not a good thing to do.

Got a ballpark figure for that natural gas gennie? I've seen them for ~ $5,000 in stores around here. Be nice if the power companies either gave them to anyone who wanted one, or, at least gave you a pretty good break on the price. It is their equipment that's breaking down. A backup system should be offered.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:



> I go back and forth about purchasing a generator, but our power has been extremely reliable and just haven't been able to bring myself to do it currently. Of course, you know what they say, past performance is not an indication of future results :lol: Given what I've heard, I'd have to do some O-scope testing before purchasing/installing a unit.
> 
> I'm guessing there's probably a forum with folks who know/have tested home generators pretty thoroughly. Should anyone have a link (by PM would be fine) I'd certainly appreciate it.


I've had one for a couple years and never used the damn thing. Bought it from Costco, had to call the company that made it for parts that were missing from the box.

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Rich said:


> I've often wondered if folks just pour the gas into the generators while they are running. Not a good thing to do.
> 
> Got a ballpark figure for that natural gas gennie? I've seen them for ~ $5,000 in stores around here. Be nice if the power companies either gave them to anyone who wanted one, or, at least gave you a pretty good break on the price. It is their equipment that's breaking down. A backup system should be offered.
> 
> Rich


I had to have one that powered the whole house, including both air conditioner compressors, so I got a 20 kW one. A la carte, they run close to $5,000 without installation. I don't have the wherewithall to install one, so I paid a local company to install it. They did everything, including laying down a cement block for it to rest on, pulling the permits, and having gas, plumbing, and electrical experts on board to install it. Total cost with installation was in the $9,200-$9,300 range.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> I had to have one that powered the whole house, including both air conditioner compressors, so I got a 20 kW one. A la carte, they run close to $5,000 without installation. I don't have the wherewithall to install one, so I paid a local company to install it. They did everything, including laying down a cement block for it to rest on, pulling the permits, and having gas, plumbing, and electrical experts on board to install it. Total cost with installation was in the $9,200-$9,300 range.


Lot of power outages in Mass? With the money electricians are making these days, I'm almost tempted to pick up my tool bag and go back to work...nah, I'm too lazy.... :lol:

Sounds like a nice setup, wish you luck with it.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Rich said:


> I've had one for a couple years and *never used the damn thing.* Bought it from Costco, had to call the company that made it for parts that were missing from the box.
> 
> Rich


And that would be my luck as well... It's hard to spend the money on something I might use once, but I'm sure if there power were out for days (and I didn't have a generator) I'd be kicking myself :lol:


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Rich said:


> Lot of power outages in Mass? With the money electricians are making these days, I'm almost tempted to pick up my tool bag and go back to work...nah, I'm too lazy.... :lol:
> 
> Sounds like a nice setup, wish you luck with it.
> 
> Rich


Thanks. 

Actually, we haven't had a lot of power outages. In the prior 8 years I've been at this house, we've only had a few, the longest one lasting 5 hours, and that was just a few houses on my street when a transformer blew. However, after last year, I said never again. About a month ago, around 3:50 a.m., power went out for no good reason. I held my breath for 10 seconds, hoping the generator would kick in, and it did! It ran for about an hour and 20 minutes before power was restored. That's when I discovered that the HR24 DVR downstairs was not connected to the UPS because it rebooted. The installers who put in the new TV obviously plugged it into the wrong outlet.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> And that would be my luck as well... It's hard to spend the money on something I might use once, but I'm sure if there power were out for days (and I didn't have a generator) I'd be kicking myself :lol:


And you wouldn't be able to find a gennie to buy anywhere. Sometimes, peace of mind is worth a few bucks.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Dr_J said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Actually, we haven't had a lot of power outages. In the prior 8 years I've been at this house, we've only had a few, the longest one lasting 5 hours, and that was just a few houses on my street when a transformer blew. However, after last year, I said never again. About a month ago, around 3:50 a.m., power went out for no good reason. I held my breath for 10 seconds, hoping the generator would kick in, and it did! It ran for about an hour and 20 minutes before power was restored. That's when I discovered that the HR24 DVR downstairs was not connected to the UPS because it rebooted. The installers who put in the new TV obviously plugged it into the wrong outlet.


Next year, new roof and solar panels installed. Sometimes I think owning a house is like having your own black hole. Just keep pouring money into it and then you die and someone makes a fortune on your home because of the upgrades. Solar panels. In my lifetime. Installed without cost. Who would have thought?

Rich


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## Dr_J (Apr 15, 2007)

Finally got around to trying to change the UPS battery downstairs yesterday. I Googled the APC model # and found what was supposed to be a compatible battery and got it at a local Batteries Plus for around $36 and change with a coupon. I go behind the TV to do the swap, unplug everything, turn the UPS upside down, open the battery compartment, and then discover that the "battery" is actually TWO battery packs joined together by a cable. (No way could I remember that after 5 years.) I only have one battery pack but don't really care because I only need 10 seconds of power before the generator kicks in. I decide I need more room and can't work behind the TV, so I cut the electric plug loose from the cable ties that the TV installers used. I go to lift it up and underestimate the weight; it tips over and puts a small dent in the wall. I get it out to the counter, remove the double battery, install the single battery, plug it in, and try to turn it on. Nothing. It's completely dead. No power. (Yes, I believe I connected the leads properly and reversed them and tried again just to make sure.) I don't know if it's because it fell or because it only had one battery pack that it wasn't working, but I couldn't take it anymore. I rush out to Best Buy and get a CyberPower UPS on sale for $130 plus tax that has almost the same wattage rating (805 watts, I think) as the APC UPS that I had before and that they're now selling for $210. The only big difference is that the CyberPower UPS has only 4 UPS-surge plugs (and 4 surge-only), while the APC had 6 UPS-surge and 2 surge-only, but since I only use the UPS for the HR24, DVD burner, and Xbox, that was fine. Both have similar digital displays on the front. I come home, plug everything into it, plug it in the wall, and everything is fine now, except for the small dent in the wall that's hard to see but that I know is there.

Morale of the story: don't cut corners and try to take the cheap way out. Every "simple" job I try to do ends up being a major headache.


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## FarmerBob (Nov 28, 2002)

Dr_J said:


> Morale of the story: don't cut corners and try to take the cheap way out. Every "simple" job I try to do ends up being a major headache.


You should be far happier with the CyberPower.


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