# 921, dvd+r/rw compatibility



## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi, I can't seem to find this anywhere, so I'll ask the easy way 

I have a 921, and I'd like to copy some of the recordings to DVD for long term storage, and I'm curious if there's a dvd recorder best suited for this?

I had picked up a dvd recorder this week which has component inputs, thinking it would accept at least 480p, but noooo it only takes 480i, and the picture quality looks like crap.

Granted, what I have recorded isn't in HD or anything, though depending on what happens in the NCAA tourney, I may have that come up, I'm simply trying to get the picture onto the dvd with the best resolution. As it is, trying to copy at 480i looks so bad I can't read any of the text on the screen, unless it's large (basketball game, so the little score box in the corner is unreadable, only the full screen images are readable). 

Am I'm just ignorant, or might there be such a beast that would at least allow me to feed it a 480p signal to record?

If not, any suggestions on how to maximize the picture quality? the shows I'm recording at 2-2.5 hrs, so I was hoping to not have to do strictly HQ mode to get a decent picture, but again, maybe that's what I need to do?

thanks


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

I assume you picked up a Philips (or Magnovox) machine. Only ones with Component In. The current batch of DVD recorders are Standard Def, and as such there's no reason to accept 480p (which would cut your recording time in half). A feature request has been placed for the 921 to output 480i component, but I'd guess this to be a very low priority.

So, are you now recording from the S-Video input (that's your next best)? I've been satisfied with this source (to a Philips 985).

So you're satisfied with the quality in 1 and 2 hour mode? If so, then you're mostly dealing with the compression on the DVD (not so much problems with the S-Video connection).

Generally I find 2.5 hour mode to be ok too. Once you hit 3 hour mode the resolution drops from 720x480 to 352x480 (which you'll certainly see on a big TV). Please remember that you recording a single layer DVD here. The original DVD standard only expected around 2 hours and 20 mins of recording here. Trying to bump to 3/4/6/8 hours is gonna cost ya.

The other trickyness is setting up TV Type and Format type.

4:3 #1 with a 16:9 source will get you a 16:9 recording that will look best if you have a 16:9 TV (but will not display correctly on a 4:3 TV).

4:3 #2 with a 16:9 source will get you a letterboxed recording. On a 16:9 TV you'll have to stretch the image to fill the screen (but it'll be correctly letterboxed on a 4:3 TV).

For format, I always use normal. Any scaling here just seems to mess me up.

There aren't any other DVD recorders with Component inputs, so you're certainly not going to find 480p.

There will be other options once the 921 Firewire gets going. A D-VHS recorder will be able to record full resolution (I'm not sure of the record time).

If you want to deal with the steep learing curve.... It might also be possible to take the feed to a PC (with a D-VHS emulator) and reencode as wm9. This will support around 2 hours on a 4.7 gig DVD and be HD resolution. But, you'll need a PC or upcoming wm9 DVD player to view.


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## Rogueone (Jan 29, 2004)

David_Levin said:


> I assume you picked up a Philips (or Magnovox) machine. Only ones with Component In.


 hehe, good guess  magitvox it is



> The current batch of DVD recorders are Standard Def, and as such there's no reason to accept 480p (which would cut your recording time in half). A feature request has been placed for the 921 to output 480i component, but I'd guess this to be a very low priority.


 well, that's a bummer



> So, are you now recording from the S-Video input (that's your next best)? I've been satisfied with this source (to a Philips 985).


 yes, I was thinking there was something wrong considering the poor quality, but based on the rest of your response, guess I need to just bite the bullet and use the 2.5 hour mode since it's a basketball game I'm trying to copy. not really wanting to copy the 1st half to one disc, 2nd half to another  haha



> So you're satisfied with the quality in 1 and 2 hour mode? If so, then you're mostly dealing with the compression on the DVD (not so much problems with the S-Video connection).


 um, to be honest, I hadn't even tried them. guess I better to have a look see 



> Generally I find 2.5 hour mode to be ok too. Once you hit 3 hour mode the resolution drops from 720x480 to 352x480 (which you'll certainly see on a big TV).


 yeah, and of course with my tv it's really annoying  I'm making the discs for my brother, who has a regular 27" tv, no progressive scan option, but what I was noticing on my tv was the text is completely unreadable, which was one of my concerns.



> The other trickyness is setting up TV Type and Format type.
> 
> 4:3 #1 with a 16:9 source will get you a 16:9 recording that will look best if you have a 16:9 TV (but will not display correctly on a 4:3 TV).
> 
> 4:3 #2 with a 16:9 source will get you a letterboxed recording. On a 16:9 TV you'll have to stretch the image to fill the screen (but it'll be correctly letterboxed on a 4:3 TV).


 hmm. I have found 4:3 #1 always comes up in stretch mode, and doesn't fit my tv. When I go to 4:3 #2, it starts in normal mode, but the top and bottom line up correctly, then when I stretch, I get full screen. I have been concerned with how this will all display on a 4:3 TV, so I've been recording in #2 in normal mode hoping that will deliver a normal image on his tv 



> If you want to deal with the steep learing curve.... It might also be possible to take the feed to a PC (with a D-VHS emulator) and reencode as wm9. This will support around 2 hours on a 4.7 gig DVD and be HD resolution. But, you'll need a PC or upcoming wm9 DVD player to view.


 well, that is going to be an option at some point  I've been thinking about buy a Shuttle XPC (sn45g) and using it as a multimedia device with an All in Wonder 9800 from ATI. That would probably be the easiest, especially if Dish ever gets the firewire working so you can just download an image onto a computer drive  guess these are the pains of being an early adopter. Reminds me of what it was like playing Everquest in the beginning, lots of potential, just requiring plenty of patience for development. Guess I'll just have to wait and see how the budget plays out.

Thanks for the suggestions and knowledge, guess I'll go back and make a 2.5 hr version to see how it looks.


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

I would hold off investing a lot into this until April. In therory Dish should be rolling "DishWire", so their may be a solution to archive via firewire.


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

Rogueone said:


> Hi, I can't seem to find this anywhere, so I'll ask the easy way
> 
> I have a 921, and I'd like to copy some of the recordings to DVD for long term storage, and I'm curious if there's a dvd recorder best suited for this?
> 
> ...


It's best to avoid the +R and +RW for video archiving. Go with the -R and -RW standard. It's compatible with more players, and seems to work better for video archiving. +R and +RW work better for data archiving.


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

Rogueone said:


> Hi, I can't seem to find this anywhere, so I'll ask the easy way
> 
> I have a 921, and I'd like to copy some of the recordings to DVD for long term storage, and I'm curious if there's a dvd recorder best suited for this?
> 
> ...


It's best to avoid the +R and +RW for video archiving. Go with the -R and -RW standard. It's compatible with more players, and seems to work better for video archiving. +R and +RW work better for data archiving.


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## srrobinson2 (Sep 16, 2003)

Tyralak said:


> It's best to avoid the +R and +RW for video archiving. Go with the -R and -RW standard. It's compatible with more players, and seems to work better for video archiving. +R and +RW work better for data archiving.


Why do you say this? My +R recordings work great on all of my players for video. I've found that using high quality media makes all the difference. When I used really cheap media, I did have some playback problems, but now I use TDK 4X +R media.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

the movies that you buy or rent are DVD-(dash) (although usually dual layer)
DVD-(dash) is the "DVD Forum" standard.
This why DVD-R is considered to be "more" compatible.
Yes, the new players "usually" will play both (+ or -). But not always.


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## drjake (Jun 12, 2002)

It never ceases to amaze me regarding the misinformation regarding DVD-R and +R. The DVDs you buy in the store are not DVD-R, they are stamped DVDs. DVD-R is recordable format just like DVD+R. The propoganda regarding the DVD Forum imprimatur is also crazy. Just because the DVD Forum approved it does not mean it is more compatible. +R/+RW and -R/-RW have just about the same compatibility ratings, although now and then if you change the bitsetting on a drive to DVD-ROM (bitsetting is only available with +R/+RW drives and discs, you may get a older player to work that will not work with -RW.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

A DVD disc can contain:
DVD-Video (containing movies (video and sound)) 
DVD-Audio (containing high-definition sound) 
DVD-Data (containing data) 
The disc medium can be: 
DVD-ROM (read only, manufactured by a press) 
DVD+R/RW (R=Recordable once, RW = ReWritable) 
DVD-R/RW (R=Recordable once, RW = ReWritable) 
DVD-RAM (random access rewritable) 
The disc may have one or two sides, and one or two layers per side: 
DVD-5: single sided, single layer, 4.7GB 
DVD-9: single sided, double layer, 8.5GB 
DVD-10: double sided, single layer on both sides, 9.4GB 
DVD-14: double sided, double layer on one side, single layer on other, 13.2GB 
DVD-18: double sided, double layer on both sides, 18.8GB 
The capacity of a DVD-ROM can be visually determined by noting the number of sides, and looking at the data side(s) of the disc. Double-layered sides are gold-colored, while single-layered sides are silver-colored, like a CD. 
Each medium can contain any of the above content and can be (soon) all layer types (double layer DVD-R and DVD+R are announced for 2004). 
The official DVD-Forum has created the DVD-R(W) standards. But as the licensing cost for this technology is very high, another group was founded, the DVD+R(W) standard created with lower licensing costs. Even so, DVD+R(W) media are typically more expensive then DVD-R(W) media. 
The "+" (plus) and "-" (dash) are two similar technical standards that are partially compatible. As of 2004, both formats are equally popular, with about half of the industry supporting "+", and the other half "-". It is open to debate whether either format will push the other out of the market, or whether they will co-exist indefinitely. Many current DVD readers can read both formats, and some newer DVD writers can write both formats.

As far as movies you buy or rent being DVD (-) , I stand by that statement!
Look at your box that your prerecorded DVD came in.
It has "DVD" with a "symbol" containing (-)" dash" under it then "Video".

It may be just a "disc symbol" with a "dash" representing the "hole".??


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## drjake (Jun 12, 2002)

I an sorry, but not one single DVD Video that I own has a dash on it. Rather, all of mine say DVD Video. DVD- refers to the recordable dash format. If you want verification, go to the DVD Forum website where they describe DVD- as a recordable format. Furthermore, DVD+ media are not typically more expensive than DVD- media. The prices have essentially equalized, except that higher speed DVD+ media is presently available and hence is more expensive. I stand by my statement that DVD- is not more compatible than DVD+. They both have similar compatibility. Note that I do not say one is better than the other. There is misinformation about both formats all over the web and when someone makes the assertion that DVD- is more compatible than DVD+ because it is approved by the DVD-Forum, they are just plain wrong. The studies that have been done show similar compatibility with a possible edge to DVD+ although not a statistically relevant difference.


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## retiredTech (Oct 27, 2003)

I agree that most players will play both. And DVD Video IS "different" than DVD-R and DVD+R. This is true. 
But orginal standards that were set for DVD VIDEO were designed by the members of DVD Forum. 
DVD VIDEO trademark, (contains a DISC with a "dash" in the center),
now this may just be a "picture" of a disc with "dash" representing the hole in the center of the disc, but it also "may" be representing a "dash".
So I will AGREE with you for most users either -R or +R will work ok,
but I like (-) better.


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## Nightmare (Nov 3, 2002)

This is a good article on the DVd -/+ thing

DVD- is older format and more compatable with older DVD players
DVD+ is a little newer and slightly less compatable
Most new DVD players will play both formats

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/110

or

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113 < Lots of technobabble


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## Tyralak (Jan 24, 2004)

srrobinson2 said:


> Why do you say this? My +R recordings work great on all of my players for video. I've found that using high quality media makes all the difference. When I used really cheap media, I did have some playback problems, but now I use TDK 4X +R media.


I didn't say they were worthless, I just said that the -R and -RW have a higher compatibility rate, and seem to do better overall for video. But you're correct, good quality media makes a huge difference.


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## thevoice (Sep 24, 2002)

Tyralak said:


> It's best to avoid the +R and +RW for video archiving. Go with the -R and -RW standard. It's compatible with more players, and seems to work better for video archiving. +R and +RW work better for data archiving.


Out of a few searches (including tomshardware) it seems the industry believes +R as a superior format. These fields include reliability and "overall" performance. I think even Mac's chose +R

I use both formats and out of four players (three of which play +R fine), one requires -R. It even has the problems of macro blocking, but it has the nuon capability so I can run some personal homebrew apps on it..

I do not have any problems with the +R media and would recommend it (if you can use a "booktype" bit setting to fool it into DVD-ROM). Most people with problems probably have never heard of "bit setting" for DVD-ROM or their burner doesn't support it and more than likely, this is their problem. I currently have a Plextor 708 and a 4x Liteon, both of which seem to burn smoother with +R.


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## jpoklop (Jan 20, 2004)

thevoice said:


> Out of a few searches (including tomshardware) it seems the industry believes +R as a superior format. These fields include reliability and "overall" performance. I think even Mac's chose +R


"The industry" depends on which companies you ask. One's which created the +r format say it is better. The early producers (when -r was the only option) do not. -r media was cheaper for a long time, but that advantage has largely gone away.

FWIW, I've not had any problems producing compatible home movies with a Pioneer 105 (-r/-rw) burner. I recently upgraded my computer and it came with a Pioneer 106 (-r/-rw/+r/+rw). I've yet to burn a +r disc. Basically if your set-top box plays format 'x' better, go with that. +rw burns at 2.4x instead of 2x for -rw so that might matter if you are in a big hurry.

Originally Macs were -r (Pioneer 103 drives). I don't know what drives they are currently shipping but I assume they are dual format.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I have a Pioneer A06 , does all formats (the drive was selected with that in mind !) - I have not had any problems with anything to date.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Yes, DVD-R is the DVD forum approved standard. But this has little to do with compatibility. The two formats are very close.

I've had no problems with DVD+R for video use (even in VERY old DVD players). +R is generally considered better for data use because it has better support for random access.

If your player supports it, +RW is nice for video use because it has more editing capability and no finalization is required. I do all initial transfers to a +RW, get it right, then transfer to a +R.

Can the -RW format....???

I record a move using a timer. After it's done, I notice there's an extra 15 mins of junk at the end. I can go in add a title split, then delete the tail, and get the space back.

I can record over any portion of a disc (just like a tape - don't even need to delete it first).

After recording a TV show, I can go back in and add chapter stops before and after commercials. I can then flag the commercials as invisible.

Note that many of the lower end DVD+RW recorders don't support all of these features (most of the Philips models do).

If you are looking for a low end player, the +RW seems to have more options. People seem to be happy with the $250 Lite-On (Comp USA when on sale). This is by far the least expensive player with a direct camcorder firewire input (one of my work buddies also has one).


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## thevoice (Sep 24, 2002)

David_Levin said:


> There will be other options once the 921 Firewire gets going. A D-VHS recorder will be able to record full resolution (I'm not sure of the record time).


I don't have much faith in this ever happening....

I also dislike that wm9 is going to be in the new HD dvd's, imagine the royalties for that...


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## MrAkai (Aug 10, 2002)

Of course you can bypass all the problems and get a DVD+/-RW drive, cost you all of $80 at Frys and less than $120 at CompUSA.

Also, +R and -R media prices have equalized at least where I shop.


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## Nightmare (Nov 3, 2002)

I got 3 of the Lite-ON DVD +/- RW drives for $40 after rebates a while back  

And I kept the Sony DRU-510A +/- RW drive I got for $90 < VERY good drive


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## SpenceJT (Dec 27, 2002)

Hang on to your hats! There's a new format coming to town!

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4532

Wouldn't it be great if the 921 could be upgraded to one of these? The inclusing of a dual layer DVD burner and Microsoft's WMV compression codec for HD would be fantastic and put Dish a few notches up on the competition!

...a guy can dream. :sure:


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

SpenceJT said:


> Hang on to your hats! There's a new format coming to town!
> 
> http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4532


Thanks for the update. These were actually announced and demo'ed at the Vegas CES in Janurary. I believe Philips announcment was first, but perhaps Sony will be the first to market.

MPAA is gonna freak - they gave DVDXCOPY a hard time, and with this that software becomes unnecessary (sorry - drifting off the thread topic).


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