# A Word to the Wise for DishNetwork



## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

Dear Dish (if you are paying attention):

In case you aren't aware, I (and I suspect many other of your subscribers) are sitting and waiting for you to make a move on HD. Directv announced their plans well ahead and they seem to be following through with what they announced. It is exciting for their customers.

Meanwhile, as Directv moves forward with HD, much silence seems to be the answer from you. I am sitting here with my committment already fulfilled and wanting to remain with you but I expect some type of announcement from you very soon regarding your strategy/timetable for providing these HD channels. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to match Directv channel for channel as soon as they go live but also please understand that if you want to keep me (and I suspect many others) as customers, we do expect to hear something very soon regarding your strategy. 

This is a very exciting time for all of us who love tv and we, your loyal customers, want to be a part of the excitement. We do not want to be left behind and watching the Directv customers have all the fun.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Sat4me said:


> Dear Dish (if you are paying attention):
> 
> In case you aren't aware, I (and I suspect many other of your subscribers) are sitting and waiting for you to make a move on HD. Directv announced their plans well ahead and they seem to be following through with what they announced. It is exciting for their customers.
> 
> ...


If you were paying attention, Dish has made similar announcements to DirecTv. They have announced plans for two new satellites that will expand their HD capabilities. For now they have been adding many HD channels using there existing satellites, and until DirecTV's recent additions were decidely ahead. Many of DirecTV's recently added channels were already carried by Dish. At this point only a few channels have been added that they don't currently carry, notably some of NBC/Univerals such as Scifi/usa/bravo, and extra Starz, Showtime channels.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be pushing Dish to add some of these soon and to expand more once the new capacity is there.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

tnsprin hit the nail on the head. Dish already has made future announcements about their next satellites and plans. Some launch problems (incidentally, launch problems that caused DirecTV's 2nd satellite to be delayed also) pushed both of Dish's new launches into next year. These things happen.

In the meantime, Dish has added some new HD... and will no doubt be adding more before the year is out... and we won't have to wait 2 years like the DirecTV folks had to wait for their new HD


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

Also, how mad were the Direct subscribers when the HD didn't show up when announced and they had to wait another week. Dish used to announce and would rather tell us after the channels are available. Some complain as to not knowing when any channels are coming but are less mad when additions don't happen when announced.


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

Yes, I was aware of all that, thank you, but I would like to see a more definitive plan with some projected dates such as what Directv did. I watched the last Charlie Chat and all they did was brag about having more channels (at that moment, including the useless VOOM) but no real committment to get HD channels to us in a reasonable time frame. 

If you guys are satisfied then so be it but I sense some footdragging on the part of Dish. Maybe they are too busy with the possible buyout from AT&T? This falls under the heading of "what have you done for me lately" and I think that for the extra $20 per month HD charge, they could be doing a lot better. I personally believe that is an outrageous charge for no more HD than they are providing. Also, you can bet that when they add more channels, the price increase won't be far behind.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> I watched the last Charlie Chat and all they did was brag about having more channels (at that moment, including the useless VOOM)


I get so tired of seeing people calling this channel or that channel useless. What is useless to one can be the best thing on television to others. I couldn't care less about USA or TBS in HD. They are USELESS (to me). On the other hand, Rave, a Voom channel, is the best thing on television in HD.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Sat4me said:


> Yes, I was aware of all that, thank you, but I would like to see a more definitive plan with some projected dates such as what Directv did. I watched the last Charlie Chat and all they did was brag about having more channels (at that moment, including the useless VOOM) but no real committment to get HD channels to us in a reasonable time frame.


+1

IIRC there hasn't been anything else from E* on the new MPEG4 based E*2 system that Charlie mentioned. For something that was supposed to start launching satellites for in a couple months based on what Charlie said you'd think there would be something out there. But then again many E* folks keep saying they like that E* doesn't announce plans they just do so maybe one day E* will just say here it is, start ordering your new systems.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

For the last couple of years Dish has not announced grandiose plans and said "please wait 1-2 years and it will be here"... and slowly they have added more HD than anyone else in that time.

Johnny-come-lately DirecTV planned and announced "please wait 2 years and seriously we will deliver"... and then people were freaking out a few weeks ago when DirecTV didn't launch on the tick of the clock people were anticipating.

That kind of roller-coaster ride is not for me... and not good for a company either. In fact, if you look at the DirecTV forums... just a few days after their Wave 1 launch of new HD people there were already asking "when will we get more".

To that end... customers of Dish or DirecTV are pretty much the same... panicking at announcements, perceived delays/slights/promise-breaking, demanding more in five minutes or they threaten to switch, etc etc.

As it turns out... DirecTV didn't lose all its customers to Dish during the last couple of years when Dish was way out in front... and neither, I expect, will Dish have a mass exodus due to the recent DirecTV additions.

Why people like to go nuts and run around like the sky is falling... it is just way beyond my ability to get that excited one way or the other. I know in the short run anything can happen... but in the long run Dish will add the same stuff... and ultimately customers of Dish and DirecTV will have lots of new HD channels to watch.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

HDMe said:


> In fact, if you look at the DirecTV forums... just a few days after their Wave 1 launch of new HD people there were already asking "when will we get more".


So how much different is that from the E* folks saying E*'s falling behind and WTF are they going to do about it the same day that D* fires up their new channels? OK, E* doesn't have to announce 2 years in advance but isn't E*s E*2 MPEG4 system supposed to be going up early next year based on Charlies remarks. Since he never specified how he's going to do it how do you know it's delayed because of launch delays when you don't know what's being launched by who?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Charlie doesn't owe me anything except providing the channels I pay for and honoring the contract we both entered into (ok, Dish owes and not Charlie personally)... he doesn't owe it to me to tell me all his future plans.

I'm not sure where people get up in arms feeling like companies owe all their plans to them.

You can read all over the forums where people have posted about another accident at a launch site that has moved launch schedules around again... happened earlier this year too... and those have effectively pushed out both DirecTV and Dish plans. It just happens that DirecTV got their first one up before the problems messed with the schedules.

But DirecTV planned on having another satellite go up this year that now is going up early 2008... and both of Dish's planned launches have moved into next year now... so lots of plans have gone into flux.

Imagine if Dish had made public announcements of grand plans and details on their new MPEG4 service for later this year... and then had to backpedal for the next few months on all that!

I prefer this way where they don't promise and therefore aren't breaking any promises if delays happen.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

RAD said:


> So how much different is that from the E* folks saying E*'s falling behind and WTF are they going to do about it the same day that D* fires up their new channels? OK, E* doesn't have to announce 2 years in advance but isn't E*s E*2 MPEG4 system supposed to be going up early next year based on Charlies remarks. Since he never specified how he's going to do it how do you know it's delayed because of launch delays when you don't know what's being launched by who?


I believe, and I apologize if I'm speaking out of turn for others, that was exactly HDME's point: E* is damned if they do and damned if they don't announce a schedule or "promise" like D* did - either way people are going to be freaking out. Some people prefer one method over the other but, having been an E* sub for 8+ years, I've gotten used to their way of doing things and have never been REALLY tempted to switch - especially after getting my 622s (best piece of HT equipment I've ever owned!!). I'm confident they will add more SD - this misconception that they need to launch new birds to come up with room (BW) for more channels is getting old, they have available room right now (this will, no doubt, spur some to stress that they have no excuse for not adding more channels immediately...).


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bobukcat, would you still feel that way if you just paid for a new DVR, E* announced their new service that your new DVR wouldn't work with and you'd have to pay for another upgrade?


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

RAD said:


> bobukcat, would you still feel that way if you just paid for a new DVR, E* announced their new service that your new DVR wouldn't work with and you'd have to pay for another upgrade?


I'm not sure I follow your question, the MPEG4 receivers (ViP series) have been out for nearly a year now IIRC, but I did pay a considerable sum of money for a 921 before that and I was certainly not happy that it was a relatively short-lived product. BUT, I work in the electonics industry (commercial not consumer, although the company I work for does both) so I've seen a lot of technology changes cause these types of issues - in fact I've been cussed at and nearly kicked out of a couple of sites for stuff like that, even though I personally had no control over it.

I don't fault anyone for asking for more from the company they are buying product or service from, but I also don't believe that there is any reason to go running off the cliff because D* has finally leap-frogged E* on number of channels, especially if a lot of those channels have limited amounts of actual HD. I still remember how excited I was when we finally got ESPN2HD only to find out that for the first ~8 months there was almost no actual HD content.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bobukcat said:


> I'm not sure I follow your question, the MPEG4 receivers (ViP series) have been out for nearly a year now IIRC, but I did pay a considerable sum of money for a 921 before that and I was certainly not happy that it was a relatively short-lived product.


But what if the current MPEG4 receivers are not usable, for whatever reason, with the new MPEG4 system and you have to pay more to replace a recently purchased receiver to get to the new system? If E* had said this would be happening would you have still spent the money to on that DVR knowing you'd have to spend more to upgrade again to get to the new system?


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## He Save Dave (Jun 6, 2006)

When is Dish suppose to bring new HD channels? Delayed til next year? When next year? Just curious.

I agree with the OP. I'd like some assurance that they're at least working on it.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

RAD said:


> But what if the current MPEG4 receivers are not usable, for whatever reason, with the new MPEG4 system and you have to pay more to replace a recently purchased receiver to get to the new system? If E* had said this would be happening would you have still spent the money to on that DVR knowing you'd have to spend more to upgrade again to get to the new system?


Okay, you've REALLY lost me now, but if you are dealing in strictly hypothetical scenarios my answer is: what will they offer me as upgrade costs, the deal they gave me to go from 921 to 622 could have been much better but I decided it was acceptable. That being said I absolutely, positively do not expect the need to replace HD receivers any time in the next 2+ years to receive additional HD content.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bobukcat said:


> Okay, you've REALLY lost me now, but if you are dealing in strictly hypothetical scenarios my answer is: what will they offer me as upgrade costs, the deal they gave me to go from 921 to 622 could have been much better but I decided it was acceptable. That being said I absolutely, positively do not expect the need to replace HD receivers any time in the next 2+ years to receive additional HD content.


OK, I give trying to explain, back to watching Sci-Fi HD.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

If you are watching Sci-Fi HD you obviously don't have Dish so why does all this matter to you?


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

RAD said:


> OK, I give trying to explain, back to watching Sci-Fi HD.


So tell me, did this scenario of buying a new HD DVR and having new channels unavailable to you actually happen, and if so with which provider/model, or was your question strictly hypothetical or an attempt to discredit E*'s (this is posted in the E* HD forum after all) future expansion in some way? If it was strictly hypothetical I believe I've answered your question with a qualified "it depends what they offer me", if it is otherwise I suspect that no answer I give will suffice for you. Enjoy SciFi HD, I'm watching a football game.......


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

bobukcat said:


> So tell me, did this scenario of buying a new HD DVR and having new channels unavailable to you actually happen, and if so with which provider/model, or was your question strictly hypothetical or an attempt to discredit E*'s (this is posted in the E* HD forum after all) future expansion in some way? If it was strictly hypothetical I believe I've answered your question with a qualified "it depends what they offer me", if it is otherwise I suspect that no answer I give will suffice for you. Enjoy SciFi HD, I'm watching a football game.......


It was hypothetical trying to make a point that having information on what the plans are will allow you as a customer to better plan what you want to do. It's the old question, as a customer would you prefer to know what a company that you do business with plans are or not be told. Some in this thread want to know, some don't.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Richard King said:


> If you are watching Sci-Fi HD you obviously don't have Dish so why does all this matter to you?


Because it was mentioned that some folks did not like D*'s mode of announcing their plans in the public vs. E* close to the vest mode. I was just trying to make a point of when not knowing what the plan is might cause you to have to spend more money then necessary.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

RAD said:


> But what if the current MPEG4 receivers are not usable, for whatever reason, with the new MPEG4 system and you have to pay more to replace a recently purchased receiver to get to the new system?


What if the moon was made of cheese and global warming from the Earth melted it? Having a smaller or non-existent moon would affect the tides on Earth and further change the climate!

What if the Bears, instead of winning the SuperBowl, won the World Series?

Ok, now the wild conspiracy theories are out of the way ... the ViP series receivers are MPEG4 and will continue to work with any MPEG4 signals E* will be putting up. E* has done it's MPEG2 to MPEG4 conversion with just a few MPEG2 channels left (for now). Crazy hypotheticals are not needed.



> I was just trying to make a point of when not knowing what the plan is might cause you to have to spend more money then necessary.


D* dragging their heels on adding HD has caused people to spend more money than necessary - or go without HD long enough that _ANY_ HD looks good.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

RAD said:


> It was hypothetical trying to make a point that having information on what the plans are will allow you as a customer to better plan what you want to do. It's the old question, as a customer would you prefer to know what a company that you do business with plans are or not be told. Some in this thread want to know, some don't.


Okay, sorry I didn't catch the gist of your post. My answer to that I don't think ANY company is going to tell you that they have plans to essentially obsolete a product that they are actively selling as a main product - I've worked for three manufacturers - two of which are VERY large and I promise you they didn't: they want to sell as many of the old models as they can because they've paid to have them built. IMO that is why your argument for a provider announcing their plans is moot, they wouldn't tell you they were going to obsolete a HR20 (as an example) until they already have a new reciever out to replace it.


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

Sat4me said:


> Yes, I was aware of all that, thank you, but I would like to see a more definitive plan with some projected dates such as what Directv did. I watched the last Charlie Chat and all they did was brag about having more channels (at that moment, including the useless VOOM) but no real committment to get HD channels to us in a reasonable time frame.
> 
> If you guys are satisfied then so be it but I sense some footdragging on the part of Dish. Maybe they are too busy with the possible buyout from AT&T? This falls under the heading of "what have you done for me lately" and I think that for the extra $20 per month HD charge, they could be doing a lot better. I personally believe that is an outrageous charge for no more HD than they are providing. Also, you can bet that when they add more channels, the price increase won't be far behind.


The door is --------------------------------> leave your key with the receptionist when you leave.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

bobukcat, yep.. you got what I was saying correctly. No matter what any company does, they can't please everyone. If you actually spend any time at all in DirecTV and Dish forums (and I admittedly spend far less time in DirecTV forums myself)... you see a LOT of the same posts. People demanding what the other guy has, wondering why their bill went up, why their installation or CSR experience was horrible, think Charlie/Rupert is the devil, etc. etc. I pretty much filter all of that stuff out as it cycles around for both companies throughout the year.

As for the hypothetical upgrade scenarios... When Dish first went MPEG4, some folks paid $299 to get a ViP622 up front because they wanted it the first day possible. I waited almost a year, and by then got the same deal with only $199 up front + a $100 rebate (10 for 10 months). People who do it now can get the same thing for $149 up front minus a $100 rebate... and new customers get MPEG4 for free when they sign up.

Deals almost always get better with time... and if you happen to bite on the deal the day before the deal gets better, you'll get burnt... which is why I ALWAYS SAY... Pay what it is worth to you now, and don't look up prices tomorrow. If you got a good deal today, don't torture yourself tomorrow because the deal got better. If you keep waiting you'll never have anything! So you always have to take a risk, but if you always buy when it is worth it to you, then you can't be ripped off even if the deal gets better.

If I go to Burger King today and pay $2 for a Whopper... then tomorrow they have 2-for-1 on Whoppers... I don't want to go back and vomit up the one I had already... It was a good deal the day I got it or I wouldn't have.

From the company side of things... If companies always told you "Hey, in 6 months we are going to obsolete all our current stuff and it will be cheaper" what would you do? Probably stop buying their product and wait...so then the company loses its revenue stream and they go out of business and the 6-month-from-now-release never happens because they closed from lack of income!

Smart companies do NOT pre-announce, and try to fight the rumor-mill... otherwise people would sit on the fence and wait... This is true of pretty much any company that has a product that they obsolete/replace periodically.


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

RAD said:


> It was hypothetical trying to make a point that having information on what the plans are will allow you as a customer to better plan what you want to do. It's the old question, as a customer would you prefer to know what a company that you do business with plans are or not be told. Some in this thread want to know, some don't.


There are more important things in life to plan for and picking a tv provider is at the very bottom of my list. If this is the most important thing in your life then I would suggest that you reassess your values.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

HDMe said:


> As for the hypothetical upgrade scenarios... When Dish first went MPEG4, some folks paid $299 to get a ViP622 up front because they wanted it the first day possible. I waited almost a year, and by then got the same deal with only $199 up front + a $100 rebate (10 for 10 months). People who do it now can get the same thing for $149 up front minus a $100 rebate... and new customers get MPEG4 for free when they sign up.


It was $299 & then we got a rebate of $ 200 w/ the exchange of previously owned equipment. So we were out $99.



HDMe said:


> If I go to Burger King today and pay $2 for a Whopper... then tomorrow they have 2-for-1 on Whoppers... I don't want to go back and vomit up the one I had already... It was a good deal the day I got it or I wouldn't have.


Disgusting, but I like the way you expressed it.



HDMe said:


> Smart companies do NOT pre-announce, and try to fight the rumor-mill... otherwise people would sit on the fence and wait... This is true of pretty much any company that has a product that they obsolete/replace periodically.


Well Voom sure as L didn't tell us. I'm a legacy from the original Voom compay.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

Maybe E* is still in hardball negotiations with some of the potential new HD channels. If they pre-announced exactly which HD channels they intend to carry they would lose bargaining power. 

Another possibility is that they are in negotiations with AT&T over a buyout and don't want to make commitments right now.


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## geoff (Jan 3, 2004)

If they are truly in negotiations with ATT for a buyout, they may not legally be able to make announcements.


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

richiephx said:


> The door is --------------------------------> leave your key with the receptionist when you leave.


My, aren't we testy today. Do you really think that nasty remark was necessary when my only point is to try and get E* to share their plans with us so we will have an idea of what may be coming and when? Geesh, some people are just nuts.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Dish is under no obligation to inform subscribers of their plans. If you don't like what they are doing there are several other options. That's the great thing about competition. My guess is that they are saying nothing because their plans hinge on things that they have no control over, such as launching new satellites. The timing of the satellite launches are something that, thanks to the problems with Sea Launch, they have no control over. If you like what someone else is providing that Dish is not then go there.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

I'll tell you what did piss me off. Last night I was forced to watch the Basball playoffs in SD because Dish does not carry TBS HD. For 30 minutes during game overlap I was able to watch it on TNT in HD (Dish does of course carry that in HD) and the game looked great!

They the first game was over and I had to switch back to TBS SD and OMFG it was horrible!

So why does Dish carry TNT HD but not TBS HD. This is esp bad since the playoffs are in HD but we can't see it.


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

If this is some sort of D* exclusive thing then I have to ask what Dish was doing all this time aside from running around saying "we have the most HD - na na na na"



-JB


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

I am amazed that some people on here just make excuses for E* and don't seem to care when HD channels are made available. I guess its pride of ownership. Even I don't really care exactly WHEN so much as I would just like to know ball park estimates from them. Are we going to have to wait for satellite launches? If so, about when do they expect to launch? Are we waiting on negotiations between Charlie and other CEOs? Are we waiting for the AT&T thing to be resolved? Just give me a ballpark estimate of when I can expect to receive $20 worth of programming for the $20 per month HD access fee. IMHO, the amount of HD currently on DISH is NOT worth $20 per month. So, just give me an estimate of about when we might expect to get HD programming that would be worth $20 per month. 

Yes, I know that many of you think that anything Dish does is ok. That is great but IMO, we need to push them a little. As loyal, paying customers, I believe we have a right to know a little about their future plans for HD. We don't need to know detailed specifics but it would not hurt them or their business to give us some general guidelines of what they plan to do and when they plan to do it.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> I'll tell you what did piss me off. Last night I was forced to watch the Basball playoffs in SD because Dish does not carry TBS HD. For 30 minutes during game overlap I was able to watch it on TNT in HD (Dish does of course carry that in HD) and the game looked great!
> 
> They the first game was over and I had to switch back to TBS SD and OMFG it was horrible!
> 
> ...


My guess is that TBShd will be cheaper to add to DISH once the baseball season is over. THe bargening power for that addition will be on DISH's side once the season is over . Right now I am sure that TBS hd is asking for a lot of money since they are in demand for the baseball season coverage, but once this is over there will be little to no hd content to be viewed. So I 'm sure it will be added to DISH once the season is concluded.


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

As someone stated previously, we pay them for tv programming. They are a business who takes our money. We can request that they add programming. It's their management's decision to move their business in whatever direction that will maximize profits and keep their Board of Directors and stockholders happy. There is no doubt in my mind that E* will purposefully let their business fail. Aside from that, they owe us nothing more than the programming we are paying to get. Anything more is gravy.


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

Sat4me said:


> Dear Dish (if you are paying attention):
> 
> In case you aren't aware, I (and I suspect many other of your subscribers) are sitting and waiting for you to make a move on HD. Directv announced their plans well ahead and they seem to be following through with what they announced. It is exciting for their customers.
> 
> ...


Does anyone from Dish even read this forum? wouldnt this be better served being sent to the Dish CEO email?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Wind_River said:


> IAre you saying that there will be no more new channels on E* until new satellites are launched next year?


No. Richard is just giving one of many reasons why E* could be holding back on HD. E* has not announced a reason ... no reason has been leaked ... we are ALL in "perhaps" mode here where your guess is as good as anyone's (well, as anyone who is as informed as you are - there are some guesses that are implausible!).

E* doesn't need new satellites to add new HD channels. There are spaces all over the place that can be filled with HD.

E* make their own decisions on what to add and when to add it. I have not seen a single internet forum post yet that has affected their decisions. Chalk any _apparent_ victories up to coincidence. Do you really think a company with 13 million subscribers and 2.7 billion in revenue in the 2nd quarter is getting their business decisions off of the internet?

My favorite reason for not adding HD (which was made public) was two years ago when E* was planning the changeover to MPEG4. They intentionally held back on promoting the old $9.99 DishHD and add-on Voom package to decrease their costs of converting MPEG2 customers to MPEG4 in 2006. Does that mean that there is some big change coming in February 2008 and they are once again discouraging signups (like they did in 2005)? No. But it makes just as much sense as any of the other conspiracy theories out there.

Anyways ... vent a little and complain a little but expect little to change. While E* and D* respect the internet forums enough to ask questions about their products no forum is in a position to tell them how to run their billion dollar business.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

What boxes still being installed by Dish do not support Mpeg4?

If there are any then I bet James hit the nail on the head. Every new non-mpeg4 box they install is a waste because it will have to be redone if not sooner then later.

-JB


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> What if the moon was made of cheese and global warming from the Earth melted it? Having a smaller or non-existent moon would affect the tides on Earth and further change the climate!
> 
> What if the Bears, instead of winning the SuperBowl, won the World Series?
> 
> ...


James the bear won the world series and the moon is made of green cheese as sam iam would say.

Your wrong on global waming it turned the earth into Ice Cream and I love Ice Cream.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jrb531 said:


> What boxes still being installed by Dish do not support Mpeg4?


E* is still selling and installing SD service using MPEG2 receivers. These receivers never receive HD and never will (even if the customer subscribes to HD). The MPEG2 receivers are not sold as HD receivers so there is no issue.

Eventually these MPEG2 receivers will need to be replaced but only when E* goes to a full MPEG4 system (SD and HD). That is years away.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> E* is still selling and installing SD service using MPEG2 receivers. These receivers never receive HD and never will (even if the customer subscribes to HD). The MPEG2 receivers are not sold as HD receivers so there is no issue.
> 
> Eventually these MPEG2 receivers will need to be replaced but only when E* goes to a full MPEG4 system (SD and HD). That is years away.


Why is it years away?

It will be expensive to switch everyone to Mpeg4 boxes so every mpeg2 only box they sell now costs them double... once to pay for the mpeg2 box and then twice to pay for the new mpeg4 box and dish later.

If I was them I would stop selling mpeg2 boxes like last year 

Eat the darn $6 no-hd fee and let's move forward into the age of mpeg4 instead of making the eventual changeover more difficult with each mpeg2 box to install.

What is the real difference between a mpeg2 and mpeg4 box anyway?

For all it's a different chip and Bios and for DVR's it's a larger hard drive.

So how much does the mpeg4 chip cost over the mpeg2 in their costs? How much cost savings is using a small vs larger hard drive?

The costs have got to be minimal.

IMHO they have already stopped producing Mpeg2 boxes and as soon as the supply runs out (well keep enough for swaps) they will move to all mpeg4 boxes.

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If it were trivial I'm sure E* would have started making those steps.

I wouldn't consider it "double" cost ... the MPEG2 boxes are practically free for E* while the MPEG4 boxes are still gaining a foothold. I doubt if it costs E* more that $50 to give a customer the best SD MPEG2 box today. By the time that E* needs to swap it out for their purposes either the customer will have paid for an upgrade (by committing to HD) or the cost of the MPEG4 box will have come down to make comparing the total of the two boxes with one expensive box today negligible.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> If it were trivial I'm sure E* would have started making those steps.
> 
> I wouldn't consider it "double" cost ... the MPEG2 boxes are practically free for E* while the MPEG4 boxes are still gaining a foothold. I doubt if it costs E* more that $50 to give a customer the best SD MPEG2 box today. By the time that E* needs to swap it out for their purposes either the customer will have paid for an upgrade (by committing to HD) or the cost of the MPEG4 box will have come down to make comparing the total of the two boxes with one expensive box today negligible.


SO Dish is banking on giving you a cheap free box at a low cost to them and then convincing you to pay for the cost of your own HD upgrade?

If it works it's a smart move, if they are forced to put up more birds to continue to support Mpeg2 then maybe this is too short sighted.

If they switched everyone over to Mpeg4 right now and paid for it out of pocket would that save them from putting up one bird?

Not talking about giving people with SD new dishes to support HD but just swapping boxes in the mail with no install costs.

Now this might all be moot because the new birds prob are being put up to replace those being worn out and the new ones prob have more capacity.

Oh well... speculation while at work not working can be fun 

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

As noted, new satellites are needed anyways. There really isn't a lot left to add in MPEG2 (perhaps a dozen channels?). E* doesn't need additional space to serve future MPEG2 needs.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

You also have to take into account the logistics... Dish has 13.5+ million customers... and probably at least 2 times that number of MPEG2 receivers in the field.

They would suddenly need MPEG4 receivers to replace every one of those in the field... AND have to schedule, at minimum, shipping and return boxes for them... probably a LOT of field service calls to customers to do swapouts to upgrade other equipment too.

It might sound good, and eventually it will probably happen... but if you started tomorrow it would probably take several years to actually implement and get around to everyone.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Sat4me said:


> IMHO, the amount of HD currently on DISH is NOT worth $20 per month.


Then cancel your HD programming. Very simple.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

And who can say if the latest models of Mpeg2 SD receivers are not already Mpeg4 capable?

It would make sense if they plan to go to Mpeg4 for everything SD & HD in the future to start designing the new SD boxes for both. Incremental cost most likely. Just do it and don't advertise it or everybody that hangs out at these forums will want to trade in their non Mpeg4 IRD for one that is Mpeg4 capable even if it isn't coming for years.

Lets think about it, Expansion ports that never got used on the 501 series for example. I think E* will take a shot at it in the near future if not already implented.
Especially if it just means using a decoder chip that can do both which is my suspicion.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Wind_River said:


> It's hard to know when someone with lack of knowledge is really merely speculating.


Consider EVERYTHING here and anywhere else on the internet on this and most subjects.... speculation.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

TBoneit said:


> And who can say if the latest models of Mpeg2 SD receivers are not already Mpeg4 capable?


Bingo!! As long as we are speculating, I wouldn't be at all surprised if all receivers made after a certain date are, in fact, MPEG4 capable.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

From what I saw and read last spring, DISH has stopped making mpeg2 receivers . ONce the new mpeg 4 service is in place, all new subs added will be given ONly mpeg4 receivers and their dishes pointed at the new locations for the all mpeg 4 service. THat was supposed to happen next spring but due to the delays in launches for all satellites due to satellite launch explosions, it won't happen to maybe next year at this time. I think once they do relaunch the mpeg 4 service they could offer upgrades to mpeg 4 receivers and dish repoints to the new locations. I would hope that they would drop the hd access fees though. If a new sub doesn't want hd then he will not want to pay the access fee , and if all they offer is mpeg 4 hd receivers , this will cause problems for new subs. Better to include hd channels as part of the basic programming cost for all subs and spin off the channels that have no simulcast in a ala carte hd pack , kind of like Directv has done. This would be less offensive to new subs who don't want hd yet for 20.00.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I think all the SD receivers made since 2000 actually include little gnomes inside who have been coming out at night and going to Radio Shack to stock up on parts so they can perform the upgrades on-site when Dish gives the word.

Meanwhile, they just sit back and watch TV and live the good life.


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

Richard King said:


> Then cancel your HD programming. Very simple.


You are starting to get close to understanding my points. I think Dish does owe us more for the $20 per month and I think we should get at least some basic understanding from them as to how/when they will proceed with additional HD. I don't want any company secrets or anything like that, just a little basic understanding of what we should expect over the next few months. If you disagree with that, so be it. I guess I'm just a little less passive than you but I'm guessing we both want the same thing after all is said and done. I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD PREFER ADDITIONAL PROGRAMMING FOR THEIR $20 RATHER THAN CANCELLING WHAT THEY ALREADY HAVE. Now do you understand? Also, I prefer to stay with Dish and will do so as long as they are making a reasonable effort to move forward with HD and as long as they stay honest with us, their loyal customers. Right now, I get the sense they are playing games with us to at least a small extent and I just want them to be honest and let us know what is going on. I DON'T THINK THAT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK WHEN I AM PAYING THE AMOUNT I PAY THEM EACH MONTH. I disagree with others who think the only thing they owe us is the programming we pay them for. I'm sorry but its just a little more complicated than that. Its a competitive business and if they want to stay competitive, they need to be honest and open with their customers and their potential customers. If you disagree with that, I honestly feel sorry for you.


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## DustoMan (Jul 16, 2005)

You know, I'm reading this thread and all I'm getting from DirecTV people and the DISH customers that are kinda on the fence about the quality of service is a lot of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). I can tell you from being a Dish Network customer for longer then I can remember a couple things:

Dish will tell us about channels when the ink on the contracts have been signed. Never before hand. They don't want to promise customers something that they can't deliver on. DirecTV was taking a huge risk and opening themselves up to a lot of flak by making the bold 100HD by next year announcement back in Jan. So far it's going ok. But if things start to turn, customers will start to get unhappy. Dish would not take such a large risk. Charlie is not that stupid.

Dish will only increase prices if they have to. Having gone through the time when DBS was considered a third-class citizen, some companies will try to make deals with people that are unfair. When that happens, Dish will just drop them. Yes it sucks when it happens, but if the company really wants to have us as viewers. They will come back with some thing more fair.

My advice to everyone. Just sit tight and wait. You got your MPEG4 HD hardware, just wait for the programming to keep coming. Nothing to my knowledge has been announced as being exclusive to DirecTV so at some point in the future. We'll get these channels they are getting. BE PATIENT!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

DustoMan said:


> Dish will tell us about channels when the ink on the contracts have been signed. Never before hand. They don't want to promise customers something that they can't deliver on. DirecTV was taking a huge risk and opening themselves up to a lot of flak by making the bold 100HD by next year announcement back in Jan. So far it's going ok. But if things start to turn, customers will start to get unhappy. Dish would not take such a large risk. Charlie is not that stupid.


Absolutely... and you need look no further than a week or two back when DirecTV customers were freaking out on a daily, sometimes hourly basis, when no new HD had come on yet. This board and Satellite Guys experienced server issues with the amount of people trying to crowd the forums and gripe... and this was all DirecTV customers freaking out because they were starting to think DirecTV had let them down.

Now imagine what would have happened if DirecTV had not launched the HD they have launched in recent weeks... That was the makings of a riot!


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> DirecTV was taking a huge risk and opening themselves up to a lot of flak by making the bold 100HD by next year announcement back in Jan. So far it's going ok. But if things start to turn, customers will start to get unhappy.


Ah, but MOST customers probably are totally unaware of the promise of 100HD channels. It is only us crazy people who hang out on boards such as this that that promise is a big deal. There would be a lot of screaming and yelling (figuratively) here, and there was, but the typical customer wouldn't even be aware, and I am sure wasn't aware of any problem.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Charlie (and Echostar) do take risks - but they are risks that they're prepared to take. They are NOT going to go out on a limb and promise something they can't deliver. I think we will eventually see more HD programming, and it may even be possible that the 625 is MPEG4 capable (but not exploiting it at this time). I don't know and I don't make my TV programming choices on "promises" - I make them on what is offered NOW. And I would suggest that everyone else do the same....


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## tpag2000 (Oct 26, 2006)

I'm not actually sure why I'm replying to this thread. I don't think my opinion on the matter is going to change anyone else, but here goes nonetheless. I like the idea of getting more information from Dish on their plans. That said, honestly, the only thing I really want to know is that they are working on getting the additional programming and that they really are committed to keeping up with HD in a "reasonable" time frame. It seems like some of the info to suggest this is already out there, but I'd love just a little more concrete data (that's just my personality).

Just to give you a bit of perspective on my decision to stay with Dish. Last Monday I called up Dish and upgraded my HD receiver (had an old 811 with the old HD package). I really hadn't been looking at DirecTV much, but when I saw the post here on Wednesday that they were adding a bunch of HD channels and even would be getting more (some one's I really want BTW) I contemplated canceling my order to do a switch over. Had there been some more info to suggest that E* was working on getting some/all of the channels D* is promising my decision would have been simple. In the end, I decided to stick it out (for at least 18 months with my new contract) believing that E* would simply HAVE to keep up or would get too much flack for backing out of the "HD leader" role. Obviously with TBS added today, we're on our way, but I'd love to know what's on the horizon.

Do they OWE me this information? No. Its their business, they run it as they think it needs to be run. If the business makes money, and is a good investment for the stockholders then THAT is what matters. Dish is a business plain and simple. If customers DEMAND information, and are willing to switch to get what they want, Dish either will have to suck it up or go away (not that I think that's going to happen).


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Sat4me said:


> You are starting to get close to understanding my points. I think Dish does owe us more for the $20 per month ...


They don't.

How many channels were available in HD the day that you subscribed to DishHD. That is all they owe you. Everything else ... the new channels they added and your expectations are secondary. You made a decision to give E* the $20 per month. If you have changed your mind and no longer believe the channels you get are worth $20 that is your problem. Perhaps it _is_ time to move on.

If you were complaining about your locals not being in HD and it was one of the cities listed in January 2006 as planned you might have an argument. But when did E* promise you TBS in HD? You just made an assumption. And now you are taking your poor judgment and blaming E* for your decisions?

Move along. Go find another provider who will ultimately disappoint you.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Exactly... there are some people who have been promised or misled on some things... and those folks do have a reason to complain. But if you are getting what you signed up for and agreed to pay... then that's all Dish owes any of us.

Next year when the price goes up... you can complain about that, since it is a change... and you have choices, either to accept it or to switch to somewhere else. But before you knee-jerk reaction-style switch to cable or DirecTV... you might want to take a look in those forums and see DirecTV and cable customers posting the same kinds of posts that Dish customers have posted. Seems like there are always people and reasons to complain... some valid, some not.

If $20 is too much to pay for the HD Dish has... then that's a valid choice, so exercise it and move on. I have never ever said anything bad about someone who felt they weren't getting their money's worth and decided to drop programming or switch providers. Where I get confused are people who gripe and complain, but keep paying just so they can keep complaining.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Maybe they feel that they have paid for the privilige to gripe.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> Charlie (and Echostar) do take risks - but they are risks that they're prepared to take.


THey have been taking risks from day one of the company. They launched their first satellite on a Chinese bottle rocket and were the first successful launch after the previous launch exploded in flight. They invented the UHF remote for satellite (in the cband days). They were the first to drop prices on hardware and the first to drop prices on installed systems. They were the first to offer "free" systems. They were the first satellite company to offer a DVR. They were the first to do local into local. They were the first with multiple slot dishes. They were the first with an HD receiver (if my memory is correct). They were the first to use MPEG4. And the list goes on. THEY have been the leader in the industry and the risk takers and have been dragging Directv (sometimes screaming and kicking) along. I can't think of anything that Directv has done first. If you can, feel free to post it.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Directv will be the first to add upto 100 hd channels at the rate their going . Unfortunately DISH will be delayed on this due to the sat explosions at the launch site.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

I think E*'s record speaks for itself. They've consistantly over the past couple of years slowly but surely added more and more HD, the most recent being TBS. During that time they had more HD than anyone most the time. Their process seems to work, all we have to do is sit back and enjoy our tv's and every so often we're rewarded with another new HD channel or two. Now if you prefer lots of hype from a company telling you for 2 years in advance that they're going to have sooooooo much Hd and then finally they add it all in one big splash well there's a company out there like that for you too. Personally i'm happy the way E* does things, no three ring circus, just getting the job done on a consistant even keel. I have every reason to believe that E*'s past shows us what to expect in the future and those HD channels will continue pop up as the deals are made and the space is available.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

> It will be expensive to switch everyone to Mpeg4 boxes so every mpeg2 only box they sell now costs them double... once to pay for the mpeg2 box and then twice to pay for the new mpeg4 box and dish later.
> 
> If I was them I would stop selling mpeg2 boxes like last year


I don't think they will phase out Mpeg2 SD boxes and replace because I think SD will go away faster than they could phase out.

Eventually the 211 will be your basic box.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

James Long said:


> They don't.
> 
> How many channels were available in HD the day that you subscribed to DishHD. That is all they owe you. Everything else ... the new channels they added and your expectations are secondary. You made a decision to give E* the $20 per month. If you have changed your mind and no longer believe the channels you get are worth $20 that is your problem. Perhaps it _is_ time to move on.
> 
> ...


Ah but James this is a personal "opinion" and one that each person is able to make on their own.

I feel that we do not get enough for our $20 while you, and many others, feel that the $20 is fair.

My opinion is just as good as yours 

Now having said this, those of us who feel that the $20 is too much can elect to pay the $20 and ***** and moan about it or move on as you suggest.

I just recently turned on my HD because I just got a sweet 50" HD DLP and I'm enjoying some of the new channels but the same "crap" HD channels that caused me to cancel my HD a year ago are still there and wasting space IMHO. What has changing is that they added many new channels which tipped the balance for me. I still think the $20 is too much but Dish has me because I love the 622 and would hate to lose it.

-JB


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Directv will be the first to add upto 100 hd channels at the rate their going . Unfortunately DISH will be delayed on this due to the sat explosions at the launch site.


Sorry to disappoint, but E* was the first to have _up to_ 100 HD channels. Who will be the first to _deliver_ 100 HD channels (not promise, not up to) is yet to be shown. I'm guessing that the first to _claim_ 100 HD channels will not have 100 HD channels available coast to coast.


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## Chinatown (Dec 13, 2003)

Watching the game, as I compose...................Is it just jiggly on my end, or are the rest of seeing ther same thing?


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

jrb531 said:


> ...
> I feel that we do not get enough for our $20 while you, and many others, feel that the $20 is fair.


Its really a $14 decision. You can pay $6 and get only the local channels in HD (if available). Or pay $20 for all available HD.

I'd like to see a $10 option where you could pick a few of the channels you actually want.

When my $10 a month HD Bonus Credit expired, I canceled DishHD. I found that I rarely watched it, just the the local HD channels and it wasn't worth it. I still get local HD and I'm happy.

I wonder if E* will increase the price of DishHD when more channels are added?


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

James Long said:


> Sorry to disappoint, but E* was the first to have _up to_ 100 HD channels. Who will be the first to _deliver_ 100 HD channels (not promise, not up to) is yet to be shown. I'm guessing that the first to _claim_ 100 HD channels will not have 100 HD channels available coast to coast.


You beat me to it. They were the first to have up to 100 HD channels the day that they fired up their FIRST HD channel.


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## PalaHeel (Sep 22, 2007)

"People are just as happy as they make up their minds to be." :grin: 
Abraham Lincoln


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Richard King said:


> You beat me to it. They were the first to have up to 100 HD channels the day that they fired up their FIRST HD channel.


 Okay you are saying that DISH will have the first 100 National had channels? I don't mean ABC , NBC,CBS,FOx or the rsns either. I honestly think that DIRECTV will beat DISH to this due to the new sat that they have up and running and due to the launch failures for DISH's satellites. How else will DIRECTV be able say that they will have 100 hd channels by the end of the year unless they mean national channels?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

No... people are point out that saying "up to 100" channels includes everything from 1 to 100... so anyone who has even 1 HD channel has "up to" 100 channels.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Since Directv never said they will have 100 HD channels by the end of the year, who knows. Directv has said 'up to 100' which is a horse of a different statement.

As to which will get to 100 HD national channels, who knows. First there have to BE 100 national HD channels.

But for my money, I don't understand why NHL HD needs 10 channels. Will there ever be a time that all 10 will light at the same time? If not, why not put some national channel in place of about 5 of them. Same goes for the Big 10.


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## brettbolt (Feb 22, 2006)

So how are these new HD channels going to be packaged/priced? 

I really wish they would adopt the 'a-la-carte' model. Unfortunately, I suspect there will be tiers with my favorite channels only available in the highest priced package.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

HDMe said:


> No... people are point out that saying "up to 100" channels includes everything from 1 to 100... so anyone who has even 1 HD channel has "up to" 100 channels.


Bingo.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

lparsons21 said:


> Since Directv never said they will have 100 HD channels by the end of the year, who knows.


They did but they backed off of it and went to the "100 channel capacity" and now "up to 100 HD channels". Their current hard promise is "70 channels by the end of October". Not up to or capacity but a promise of 70. What will they count to hit 70?



> But for my money, I don't understand why NHL HD needs 10 channels. Will there ever be a time that all 10 will light at the same time? If not, why not put some national channel in place of about 5 of them. Same goes for the Big 10.


They might as well have 22 NHL HD channels. They are all mirrors of the RSNs they carry. E* has set aside space for their HD RSNs -- having 10 NHL HD channels does not prevent them from adding a single other HD.


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## AcidBluexxx (Aug 31, 2007)

HDMe said:


> Now imagine what would have happened if DirecTV had not launched the HD they have launched in recent weeks... That was the makings of a riot!


Perhaps the DirecTV subs would have switched over to Dish and made Dish the number one satellite provider.


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