# When is L189 et al coming???



## tahoerob

When is the next major update coming???

I want OTA guide data & LIL for SD channels as well!!


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## Dustin_Moore

tahoerob said:


> When is the next major update coming???
> 
> I want OTA guide data & LIL for SD channels as well!!


Looks like OTA won't be coming in L189...


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## alipka

It would just be nice if, almost a year after shelling out $1000, I could record AT ALL from all the local OTA channels.


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## Mark Lamutt

alipka - that's what's coming. At least, all indicators that I've seen look good for it.


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## joebird

Mark,

Sorry if you've already posted this, but do you have a list of what will be fixed or added to the L189 release? I can already record OTA now (manually).

Thanks,

Joe


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## Mark Lamutt

I have my own list, but I don't yet have the official release notes. I'll get those either shortly before it spools to you, or shortly after depending on what day it comes.


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## tahoerob

Do you know if OTA guide & LIL SD are linked to same update or seperate????????


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## Mark Lamutt

That's a question that I don't know the answer to.


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## indyras

tahoerob said:


> Do you know if OTA guide & LIL SD are linked to same update or seperate????????


Tahoerob,

I'm curious as to the LIL SD you are referring to. Do you want OTA SD guide information? Do you want LIL satellite channel numbers remapped to their local channel numbers in the guide?

I am just looking for a little clarification to see whether or not I should add something to my "wish list". 

Thanks.


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## jsanders

How long has it been since the last update now? 

I thought the term "emergency" release meant it was a quick patch which was to solve a single specific problem and not effect the schedule because it was done as a branch off of the code base from the last public release. But every time we get an "emergency" release, the schedule is impacted the same as a normal release. What gives?

I feel like they are lying to us when they give us an "emergency" release. 

We are way off schedule. We were originally promised OTA guide data in the spring. Nobody expected that to happen, but we were still upbeat when they said mid-June. 6 months after release for OTA guide data wasn't at all good, but it seemed long enough that it seemed reasonable to be able to expect it. Now it is a week into the tenth month of the year and there haven't even been anymore schedules announced.


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## markcollins

I'm A firm believer IT AIN'T HAPENIN'!! And I mean ever.


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## Mark Lamutt

Good for you...bet you believe in Santa Clause as well...


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## alipka

Well, no 189, and tomorrow is the new season of Star Trek: Enterprise in HD.

It looks like I won't be recording it, since WPSG-DT in Philadelphia doesn't record on my 921, still.

Most disappointing - and that is an understatement to avoid being censored. I really think that despite the reassurances we receive from Mark regarding how hard these guys are working, if I were them, I would be embarrassed.


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## Ronald K

I think a better way of saying it is we "don't" believe in Santa Claus.

I have had my unit since about Jan. and I also do not believe that they will ever fix anything of significance.

It was a piece of crap when I got it and it still is.


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## Frank Z

Ronald K said:


> It was a piece of crap when I got it and it still is.


If you dislike it so much, why keep it?
Sell it on ebay, you'll get your money back.


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## jsanders

Ronald K said:


> I have had my unit since about Jan. and I also do not believe that they will ever fix anything of significance.
> 
> It was a piece of crap when I got it and it still is.





markcollins said:


> I'm A firm believer IT AIN'T HAPENIN'!! And I mean ever.


I've had mine since January too, and it is a lot better since then. Stability is uncomparably better, and OTA stuff works a lot better. Unfortunately, there is still a way to go. Yes, it is going slower than anticipated, schedules have slipped. There is a huge problem with project management of the 921, and yes, it is an embarrassment.

However, we have to at least be realistic. They have been making progress, although very slow, and this won't stop. We are all getting impatient, but that doesn't give us the right to exaggerate.


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## deweybrunner

JSanders, I agree with you completely. I've had mine since Jan and am glad I got it. A few features I would like, however, believe are coming soon.


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## dishbacker

I'll throw my approval in there as well... yes, I would expect more for the money, but in the end, I'm able to watch, time-shift and record HD content (save some funky NBC OTA stuff from time to time). Still frustrating that things can't get fixed quicker, but even more frustrating is the apparent lack of work by DISH to add more HD content while DirecTV is adding new channels monthly...

Come on Charlie! Get some deals rolling!


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## leemathre

I received an e-mail today from a contact I have in the engineering department at Dish. I had asked him about the problem with the scrambled preview window in the DVR menu after erasing a recorded program. He told me that this issue may be fixed in the next release. He also said that it looks like the next release will be in the middle of November. No further information was given.


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## DonLandis

I agree that the 921 is much much better than when I first got it in January. 

A TIVO it is not, no argument there. However, I use both daily and the 921 is quite stable here since about mid July. The last major annoyance was with the PSIP requirement fiasco but since all our local stations have complied with FCC regs and have valid PSIP that issue is behind us. I sincerely wish all of you were PSIP compliant so you could experience the same success as I have here. 

I believe one way that I have found peace of mind with the 921 is that I now view it philosophically as a tuner-receiver complex with DVR record capability. OTOH, I use my TIVO for true Time shift and archiving. It is not great at live viewing as the 921 is superior in response.

If I only had the TIVO I would be frustrated at the live response compared to the 921. If I only had the 921 I would still be frustrated at not having TIVO like time shifting features and NBR. Having both allows me to experience the best of both.

Guide info on OTA will be a nice addition on the 921 but I fear that E* NBR will be a few years in development before it is what TIVO offers today. I actually fear the NBR addition may cause serious 921 performance issues we don't have today. It will be tough to compete with the TIVO like NBR ease of operation, bug free, and still get around their patents and copyrights.


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## Mark Lamutt

Lee - your contact is correct about the first issue, but not the 2nd one. The scrambled preview window after deleting a program is _mostly_ fixed. I definitely don't buy the next release being mid-November, though. That's the time frame for L190.

I have 2 things that I want to tell you about the next version:

First, with the current L189 beta, I am using my 921 as my primary satellite receiver for the first time since I got it last December. This is a huge deal to me - up until last weekend, I've been afraid to use this receiver as my primary, without a backup in place for "important" recordings. With this version, I feel like I don't need the backup anymore.

Second, the reason you don't have it yet is because the beta process is doing its job. There are enough significant changes in this version, that I have been spending more time doing very detailed, involved testing and reporting than I've done before with any other version since L142. As soon as the critical issues are resolved, you'll get it.


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## leemathre

Thanks for the update Mark. I hope you are right about the time frame for L189.


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## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> Lee - your contact is correct about the first issue, but not the 2nd one. The scrambled preview window after deleting a program is _mostly_ fixed. I definitely don't buy the next release being mid-November, though. That's the time frame for L190.
> 
> I have 2 things that I want to tell you about the next version:
> 
> First, with the current L189 beta, I am using my 921 as my primary satellite receiver for the first time since I got it last December. This is a huge deal to me - up until last weekend, I've been afraid to use this receiver as my primary, without a backup in place for "important" recordings. With this version, I feel like I don't need the backup anymore.
> 
> Second, the reason you don't have it yet is because the beta process is doing its job. There are enough significant changes in this version, that I have been spending more time doing very detailed, involved testing and reporting than I've done before with any other version since L142. As soon as the critical issues are resolved, you'll get it.


Mark, Thanks for the info. Do you have any thoughts on Don's assessment as far as NBR goes. To be honest, the same thought has crossed my mind as far as NBR throwing a wrench into what will probably be a pretty stable unit. What about the 2 year timetable


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## Mark Lamutt

Eagles said:


> Mark, Thanks for the info. Do you have any thoughts on Don's assessment as far as NBR goes. To be honest, the same thought has crossed my mind as far as NBR throwing a wrench into what will probably be a pretty stable unit. What about the 2 year timetable


 Honestly, I don't really have any thoughts about Don's assessment, and won't until it goes into testing. I don't think that there will be a performance issue with it, in regards to NBR taxing system resources. All timers set from the guide today are linked back to the guide. NBR is an extension of that - the next step, so to speak. Performance issue, with regard to it working or not...that remains to be seen. I suspect that NBR will be in testing for a long time before it gets sent out. I don't see it being a 2 week beta test period and then public release because it's a fundamental change. In other words, I don't think that you're going to see it until it does work.

I don't know what you're referring to with the "two year timetable" comment.


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## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> I don't know what you're referring to with the "two year timetable" comment.


I should of said "a few" instead of two. I was referring to Don's claim that it will be a few years until E* developes NBR for the 921 which is comparable to Tivo.


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## Mark Lamutt

Eagles said:


> I should of said "a few" instead of two. I was referring to Don's claim that it will be a few years until E* developes NBR for the 921 which is comparable to Tivo.


 I think I'll be much better qualified to answer that one once I see the initial offering of NBR first hand. To this point, all I've seen are pictures of a demonstration that was probably staged.


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## sleepy hollow

I still think my 921 is great. Despite the few flaws, I'd say I'm at 90% of what I expected. The one serious drawback is archiving. Would really like to see a solution. I am sure the 921 bashers will wince when I say I would pay additonal money for a removable archiving drive or something like that.


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## Slordak

Everyone has lots of "I wish the 921 did this or that" item. For example, I was expecting a resolution pass-through (720p as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, without adjusting the set each time) option. But we can't always get what we want, I'm afraid, and so we have to make do with what we have.

But jeez, can't Dish waive the $5/month "PVR Fee" on a receiver I paid $1000 for?


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## mfrodsha

Slordak said:


> Everyone has lots of "I wish the 921 did this or that" item. For example, I was expecting a resolution pass-through (720p as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, without adjusting the set each time) option. But we can't always get what we want, I'm afraid, and so we have to make do with what we have.
> 
> But jeez, can't Dish waive the $5/month "PVR Fee" on a receiver I paid $1000 for?


Frankly, that is my biggest beef with Dish. I can understand if we were leasing the equipment, but we're not in this case.


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## jsanders

I don't think that OTA guide data or name based recording are conceptually that difficult to implement. I could see it happen in a few months (and that is conservative), not years. If it does take years before we see this, it isn't the programmer's fault (unless they are worthless programmers), it is project management, politics, bureaucracy, etc..


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## Anthony Falcone

I think Don meant that it will be years before Dish's NBR will be at the same level of performance as the Tivo . IOW, it may be introduced in a few months but there'll be years of software updates till it really is as solid as a Tivo .


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## markcollins

Mark Lamutt said:


> Good for you...bet you believe in Santa Clause as well...


Mark L.,
You don't get the point obviously,I have had my 921 since Jan. I also bought my HD television at the same time.If I had brought home my TV and it only picked up 3 stations and some of the features as zoom ,stretch and PIP didn't work I would call the Rep.I don't think they would dance around and say hey "new equipment,we're working on it--"IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT SELL IT ON EBAY!!!!"OH ya and we're charging for the inconvenience of selling you a defective,not as advertised piece of equipment,and don't dare ask for maybe an adjustment in your bill while we sit with our fingers up our ####.You may say I'm being negative,unconstuctive and not helping anything.I say we've been waiting going on a year to get what I was sold by DISH.And no end in sight.Ya they've made some improvements,I can in the last month actually watch Local HD and record successfully most times.Also,I've been paying for that priveledge for 9 months with 1 month return.So you don't think I'm new to this,I've been a dish subscriber for 6 years and have 2 501 receivers.I don't mind paying for them,they work!
So to people who say Dump your receiver if you don't like being sold a non-performing piece of equipment,I hope you are not in the customer service career field.


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## tahoerob

indyras said:


> Tahoerob,
> 
> I'm curious as to the LIL SD you are referring to. Do you want OTA SD guide information? Do you want LIL satellite channel numbers remapped to their local channel numbers in the guide?
> 
> I am just looking for a little clarification to see whether or not I should add something to my "wish list".
> 
> Thanks.


Wow, I do not check this thread for a few days & there are lots of posts!!
Thanks Mark for update.

I want the 921 to act like the 500 series. 
The SD locals from Dish are now in 8000 range for me on 921. I would like them moved to the repective local channel numbers, _ie._ CH 7 at Dish guide ch. 7 instead of 8070. Thus, Locals in locals (LIL). The 500 series receivers do this now. At least this would help by then showing SD satellite locals in proximity to OTA HD channels. At least, we then can "see" what is on w/o flipping from OTA chanels section of guide to 8000 range.

Also, I can then easier set manual timers by first selecting SD program & then changing channel to OTA one.


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## tahoerob

Mark Lamutt said:


> ...... I definitely don't buy the next release being mid-November, though. That's the time frame for L190......


Sooo, that could mean by inference that L189 will show up THIS month since L190 is due in November!!


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## Kagato

Doesn't Dish's lack of channel remapping violate FCC mandates?


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## n0qcu

No, There is NOT any rule that says your locals must be mapped to thier OTA channel number.


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## boylehome

tahoerob said:


> Sooo, that could mean by inference that L189 will show up THIS month since L190 is due in November!!


OK, this isn't germane to the thread but tahoerob, that sure is a happy kid in you avatar.


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## Ronald K

I wish it had OTA NBR

I wish it had Firewire for archiving

I wish it was going to have more HD channels that was promised

I wish it didn't have lines running up and down the middle of the picture

I wiah that anybody that tells me that I should sell it on Ebay would ......

I wish that Dish would either give me what I paid for many months ago or give me the entire cost of switching from D* to E* back.

I will say it again - it is crap. It will still be crap 6 months or 6 years from now. They don't know what they are doing. For God's sake it has been 10 months now and they can't fix a software problem? They are morons!


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## tahoerob

boylehome said:


> OK, this isn't germane to the thread but tahoerob, that sure is a happy kid in you avatar.


He is probably smiling for getting away with something!!!

He is my third kid (other 2 are girls), and LAST!!!!

BTW, did you know that you can turn a Barbie into a gun by splitting her legs & holding one as a gun handle!?!?!?!


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## BobaBird

markcollins said:


> OH ya and we're charging for the inconvenience of selling you a defective, not as advertised piece of equipment, and don't dare ask for maybe an adjustment in your bill while we sit with our fingers up our ####. ... Also,I've been paying for that priveledge for 9 months with 1 month return.


A couple days ago I complained to tech support about the multiple problems I'm having with timers failing to fire, recording part of the event, indicating recording for the intended duration but resulting in 0 sec, and just plain being deleted. Refreshingly, the tech acknowledged the problem without blaming my setup and didn't have me jump through hoops by doing a reset though he did recommend frequent resets as a partial remedy. When I pointed out that I'm being charged a DVR usage fee for a feature I can't rely on he waived the so-called "VOD" fee for 2 months.


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## Sundance

tahoerob said:


> Do you know if OTA guide & LIL SD are linked to same update or seperate????????


What OTA guide? If they are going to rely on the joke the broadcaster are calling a EPG we will still have nothing.


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## Sundance

Mark Lamutt said:


> I don't see it being a 2 week beta test period and then public release because it's a fundamental change. In other words, I don't think that you're going to see it until it does work.
> 
> I don't know what you're referring to with the "two year timetable" comment.


Any idea when that release will happen ...3 weeks, a month, 3 months?


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## Rodney

I thought it was time to revive this thread and ask the basic question;

When is L189 coming?

Does anyone have any news?


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## Mark Lamutt

At this point, you all know just about everything that I know (ie not much...) about the release date.


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## Mark S.

Mark,
Do you know if there are any planned fixes in this release for any of the caller-id issues that have shown up recently? (ie. not working anymore)
Thanks


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## Mark Lamutt

Mark,

I don't have any idea. I'm not seeing any of these recent callerid problems.


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## Clarkjwc

Mark, if Dish isn't telling you, and you can't tell us, what are we doing here?

JC


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## DonLandis

At this point my 921 is working as well as I can expect. Unless they have a bug free listing of the OTA guide ready, they can just avoid trouble and, IMHO, wait until that feature is ready before any new upgrades. I worry they may break more than they fix with any "maintenance" upgrades.


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## tahoerob

Clarkjwc said:


> .................what are we doing here?
> 
> JC


That of course is the question for the ages & upon which whole schools of philosophy are started :lol:


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## boylehome

tahoerob said:


> BTW, did you know that you can turn a Barbie into a gun by splitting her legs & holding one as a gun handle!?!?!?!


No. I have three girls. They preferred to pull the appendages off of their Barbie's. :lol:


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## Mark Lamutt

Clarkjwc said:


> Mark, if Dish isn't telling you, and you can't tell us, what are we doing here?
> 
> JC


 You're directly telling the programmers about problems that may or not be seen by them or the beta team. Like I said, I don't see the callerid problems on mine. And, because I don't see the problems, I can't report the problem through the normal beta channels.


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## SimpleSimon

Hmm. Maybe Clarkjwc hasn't read the sticky and rules yet.


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## Rodney

We have entered another week. Is there any update news?


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## Eagles

Rodney said:


> We have entered another week. Is there any update news?


See mark's reply in this 
thread earlier today. Doesn't sound too promising for this week. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Mark Lamutt

Definitely not this week. Don't know about next week yet.


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## joebird

Yawn. So much for their series of releases that were talked about in the last tech chat...


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## ocnier

well mark, at least your giving some positive feedback about 189. I just wish we were further along the bug train by now, heck, in Jan 05' it will be a year for my 921. :eek2: I'd just like to get near total stability for recording features (especially the OTA's). I would like the EPG's but i can wait on that for OTA improvement


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## Scott Greczkowski

As of the phone call I just had they are shooting for a release in the next two weeks. Let's keep our fingers crossed.


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## Slordak

I'm going to keep them crossed in the hopes that nothing which was previously working becomes broken, i.e. two steps forward, one step back. Maybe we can get past the point where it's just bugs that are being fixed and move on to adding features that should have been present but were dropped for initial release.

But yes, my 921 will be a year old in January as well. The poor thing is still flakey and somewhat sluggish. Using my 508 upstairs is like a refreshing lesson in what using a basic PVR should actually be like: No glitches in the video, no 10 minute reboots with bizarre behavior afterwards, and no 3 second delays when changing channels!


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## Mike D-CO5

Seems like this was a down month for Dish in terms of software updates on the 721 and the 921. All the 721 got was a security update/ no fixes. The 921 didn't get squat. NO tech or Charlie Chats either. Wonder what was going on this month?


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## Mark Lamutt

The month's not over yet...and no that doesn't mean that I know anything about L189 coming next week. It means that I'm still holding out some hope for it.


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## Mike123abc

1.88 works reasonably well. I hope they are holding off on 1.89 to at least get any bugs out of it that were not in 1.88. It would be nice to have a release that fixes bugs (I know not all the bugs will be fixed in one release) without breaking working items.

OTA guide data looks very nice on the 811. I hope that they work out issues from the experience with the 811 to get a nice clean addition to the 921.


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## Mark Lamutt

L189 definitely fixes quite a few bugs. 

And, I believe that was the reason for getting the guide data onto the 811 first...


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## tweaver999

Mark I think I posted this in the wrong thread... this is where I meant it to be.... 


Mark, how long has the total beta process been going???? I have had my 921 about 6 months and some of the things it does are GREAT... however, some of the problems are beginning to get a bit old.... I worked for a large computer company and participated in many software/hardware alphas and betas... I also was a beta tester for many products including the first RePlayTV boxes... At first there were many problems,, some serious... however after approx. 6 months there were zero major problems recording, with the guide,etc... As the new versions came out they were to improve the speed or to improve the look and feel of the guide and controls... They added the logic for automatic commercial skip with hardly any software problems. While I still think the 921 has the potential of being a fantastic leading DVR.... my Patience is wearing thin. I think you as a beta tester should pass onto upper management of Dish, that the users( we all appear to be beta testers... ) are not going to wait much longer. It appears to me that the management of these releases is being handled very poorly. The competition is catching up. If I do not see real improvement in 1-2 months, I will seriously look at DirectTV/Tivo as a replacement... I have seen it and it looks ok and the complaints do not seem as serious. Please pass this on... Thanks for all your help Matt... and I know the difficult position a beta tester is in when the provider does not run its on web site to accept input....

PS: all the releases I worked on had the requirement that a product could not move from alpha to beta if it had ANY major problems..... I believe the inability to record OTA and the lack of OTA guide are major problems..


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## tahoerob

Well said T Weaver!!
I have had mine since first round in Jan. 04. I agree that it seems to have been a little rushed to market with big problems & under featured. Overall I do love it for the HD DVR features.
My long term outlook will be which DBS provider offers local HD channel (D* with edge with announced plans for 2 sats next year) as well as more HD in general (V* advantage). I would like to see the other pay movie channels available ASAP (Starz, TMC, Encore, Cinemax).
Dish might want to reveal a little of their near future HD plans. At least enough to prevent us from switching prematurely!!


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## Mark Lamutt

TWeaver - I don't need to pass it along...you just did (twice)  

As for the beta process, for me since December. For the 921, significantly longer than that, from what I've been told.


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## JohnM

tweaver999 said:


> If I do not see real improvement in 1-2 months, I will seriously look at DirectTV/Tivo as a replacement... ..... I believe the inability to record OTA and the lack of OTA guide are major problems.. :


I am currently a 4+ year Dish subscriber and have been basically happy with the service and my 6000 receiver (in spite of its bugs). However, I am tired of waiting on a working 921. The guide data and recording OTA is the main features that I need and I refuse to pay $1000 for it until they work. Within the next 2-4 weeks I will either switch to D* and buy a 10-250 (plus other HD receiver) or I will buy a 921. IF (big if) the 921 is functioning properly by that time I will seriously consider staying with Dish. If not, hello D*


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## tahoerob

JohnM said:


> I am currently a 4+ year Dish subscriber and have been basically happy with the service and my 6000 receiver (in spite of its bugs). However, I am tired of waiting on a working 921. The guide data and recording OTA is the main features that I need and I refuse to pay $1000 for it until they work. Within the next 2-4 weeks I will either switch to D* and buy a 10-250 (plus other HD receiver) or I will buy a 921. IF (big if) the 921 is functioning properly by that time I will seriously consider staying with Dish. If not, hello D*


I do find that my 921 DOES record OTA well. It would of course be EASIER if I had guide data to set timers!!! I currently set the timer using the SD local channel info from guide & then edit it to change to OTA HD channel. It works every time. It also has been firing the weekly OTA timers correctly. 
While the timer is in the timer queue, it shows the show info from the above mentioned method. However, after recording, it shows in DVR menu as either "unknown recording" or "WXXX (being OTA channel callsign) local programming".


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## Eagles

JohnM said:


> I am currently a 4+ year Dish subscriber and have been basically happy with the service and my 6000 receiver (in spite of its bugs). However, I am tired of waiting on a working 921. The guide data and recording OTA is the main features that I need and I refuse to pay $1000 for it until they work. Within the next 2-4 weeks I will either switch to D* and buy a 10-250 (plus other HD receiver) or I will buy a 921. IF (big if) the 921 is functioning properly by that time I will seriously consider staying with Dish. If not, hello D*


You say the inability to record OTA and guide data are keeping you from a 921 purchase. I've had my 921 since 12/30/03. I've never had problems recording digital OTA. There were some serious stability problems early on, but for the most part they have been rectified to the point where the unit is stable. The only OTA recording bugs that I still deal with are the workarounds which you must be familiar with in order to set OTA timers and record. As far as the guide goes, Dish's SAT guide is lightyears ahead of Tivo's as far as speed and functionality. With the OTA guide, if and when it does arrive on the 921, it will be at the mercy of the local OTA's as far as the guide content and advance programming. Actually I'm assuming that to be the case. If it is, the OTA guide could work flawlessly as far as Dish (software) is concerned, but the OTA guide may not work that well or at all based on the locals lack of information or technology.


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## kmcnamara

Does the unit still auto-reboot every night? I haven't bothered to check.


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## leemathre

kmcnamara said:


> Does the unit still auto-reboot every night? I haven't bothered to check.


Mine auto-reboots at 2:00 A.M. PDT every morning.


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## Slordak

Eagles said:


> You say the inability to record OTA and guide data are keeping you from a 921 purchase. I've had my 921 since 12/30/03. I've never had problems recording digital OTA.


Lucky you. Unfortunately, I have to say you're in the minority here, in that the rest of us had many months of fighting with timers and OTA timers in particular until certain bugs got fixed. Consider these:

1) Issues with adding OTA channels to the list in the first place, or issues with the channels being "not found" when one actually tried to watch them.

2) Issues with 0-second recordings and loss of "trick play" features on certain OTA stations.

3) Issues with timers just failing to fire at all after a certain number of days of continuous operation (which prompted the "auto reboot fix").

If you didn't have any of these, either you were incredibly lucky, or you just didn't use your 921 much. On the plus side, most of these have been fixed at least partially, so we've made some real progress.


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## Eagles

Slordak said:


> Lucky you. Unfortunately, I have to say you're in the minority here, in that the rest of us had many months of fighting with timers and OTA timers in particular until certain bugs got fixed. Consider these:
> 
> 1) Issues with adding OTA channels to the list in the first place, or issues with the channels being "not found" when one actually tried to watch them.
> 
> 2) Issues with 0-second recordings and loss of "trick play" features on certain OTA stations.
> 
> 3) Issues with timers just failing to fire at all after a certain number of days of continuous operation (which prompted the "auto reboot fix").
> 
> If you didn't have any of these, either you were incredibly lucky, or you just didn't use your 921 much. On the plus side, most of these have been fixed at least partially, so we've made some real progress.


Slordak, I guess I am lucky, Although I failed to mention I had to replace my original unit two times. This is my third unit. (Supposed hardware problems) I've had this one since March or April. 
#1-I've never had problems adding available channels, but I do remember the severe instability of the unit when viewing OTA's. Crash, Reboot, Rescan ect. do over again, and again, and again, then give up. 
#2- When my OTA timers "did fire" I never had this problem. Trick play was never a problem. From what I gathered, the trick play was more related to certain stations. I get DC and Baltimore locals. never a problem. 
#3- Never a problem that I noticed. Probably because my unit crashed so much in the beginning, it never operated for days or a DAY at a time without me having to do a hard reboot. 
And yes I did and do use it alot. I hardly ever watch live TV anymore other than sports. I guess after responding to your reply, I realized it was pretty fustrating and problematic in the beginning. I am now to the point where I'm confident enough to record an OTA timer without a SAT backup if I have to. (2 different shows at the same time) But as you stated the unit has become pretty stable, and for me has been that way for a while. I guess you tend to forget all the previous problems. I guess my point to the original post was, the stuff he said he was waiting for as far as 921 functionality is basically here.


----------



## Clarkjwc

Mark what can we do?! 
We 921 owners cintinue to live with less than we pay for! you are our only conduit to DN! we continue to to receive crxp for service for the big $ we have sent to DN. What can yoiu do for us? What can we do with you?

JC


----------



## SimpleSimon

Slordak said:


> ... 2) Issues with 0-second recordings and loss of "trick play" features on certain OTA stations. ...


It's not just OTA, but can occur on ANY HD content. I run into it often on CBS-HD West.


----------



## scpanel

Any updates Mark as we are getting close to November? Hopefully it will be this week sometime and some of us will get our guides fixed w/189.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Next week is more likely at this point. Very slim chance it might slip in on Friday afternoon, but not likely. But, unless something completely whacked happens in the next few days, this one is going to be worth the long wait since L188. Yeah, I've said that before I know..it's close...


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> Next week is more likely at this point. Very slim chance it might slip in on Friday afternoon, but not likely. But, unless something completely whacked happens in the next few days, this one is going to be worth the long wait since L188. Yeah, I've said that before I know..it's close...


Well, I have to ask the question then. Are we also waiting for *two* planets to align, a big one, and a small one? Or, in this case, is it just going to be •one• planet, or maybe the Death Star (a planet destroyer)?


----------



## Mike123abc

jsanders said:


> Well, I have to ask the question then. Are we also waiting for *two* planets to align, a big one, and a small one? Or, in this case, is it just going to be •one• planet, or maybe the Death Star (a planet destroyer)?


It probably comes down to trying to test it as much as possible. 1.88 is stable enough that it is not an emergency. I would much rather wait longer to have a stable release than have them rush out yet another bug ridden version that everyone will be going crazy when is 1.90 going to come out...

Remember once this release comes out, it could be next year before the next upgrade. Better to have some stability to live with yet another buggy version for 2 more months.


----------



## jsanders

Mike123abc said:


> It probably comes down to trying to test it as much as possible. 1.88 is stable enough that it is not an emergency. I would much rather wait longer to have a stable release than have them rush out yet another bug ridden version that everyone will be going crazy when is 1.90 going to come out...
> 
> Remember once this release comes out, it could be next year before the next upgrade. Better to have some stability to live with yet another buggy version for 2 more months.


Sorry, that isn't quite what I was talking about. I was quoting something Mark was saying around the March timeframe. It was really a cryptic way of asking about something other than bug fixes.

Why do you think it will be another year before another version comes out after the next release? Seems to me that why will keep releasing updates until this product is polished and stable.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

No planets this time. It really is close, and yes, testing is intense.


----------



## boylehome

Mike123abc said:


> It probably comes down to trying to test it as much as possible. 1.88 is stable enough that it is not an emergency. I would much rather wait longer to have a stable release than have them rush out yet another bug ridden version that everyone will be going crazy when is 1.90 going to come out...
> 
> Remember once this release comes out, it could be next year before the next upgrade. Better to have some stability to live with yet another buggy version for 2 more months.


I agree that it's better to have something that is solid. They have used this method since L185 (and perhaps before, as I started with L185) and still problems exist. A year is not acceptable for an expensive piece of technology to do what it was designed to do. It should have been working properly once it went retail.


----------



## SimpleSimon

I'd like to know if there's anything in this release for those of us that couldn't care less about OTA, OTA guides, or anything other than why we are E* customers. That is, satellite TV.


----------



## boylehome

SimpleSimon said:


> I'd like to know if there's anything in this release for those of us that couldn't care less about OTA, OTA guides, or anything other than why we are E* customers. That is, satellite TV.


Perhaps it's in invisible ink.


----------



## Mike123abc

jsanders said:


> Why do you think it will be another year before another version comes out after the next release? Seems to me that why will keep releasing updates until this product is polished and stable.


Not another year but next year before another release can be done. We are entering the holliday season and given the past time periods of releases, a major release would be towards the end of January/early February. Essentially we will have to live with the next release and any of its bugs for about 3 months....


----------



## Ronald K

"188 is stable enough" - what a joke.

Last night I tried to add a digital channel and it locked up. It took me one hour to get it working again.


----------



## boylehome

Ronald K said:


> "188 is stable enough" - what a joke.
> 
> Last night I tried to add a digital channel and it locked up. It took me one hour to get it working again.


I was pretty much at bay in not complaining, but now I'm getting "0" time on some of my DVR timers. This is just wrong! This even occurs after the highly acclaimed power cord reboots  BTW the "0" timers are on satellite channels not OTA. I gave up trying to record the OTA with their known issues.


----------



## Skates

Ok, I've held off this long, but the truth is 188 has been the most unstable version I've had. Last weekend, my 921 had a complete meltdown and it took me over an hour and a half to get it working again. It actually came up with a computer screen that said "system failure, please wait". That was just the beginning...

There - I said it. I feel better now. :nono2:


----------



## SimpleSimon

boylehome said:


> ... BTW the "0" timers are on satellite channels not OTA. ...


I am also getting a LOT of 0 second recordings on HD satellite.

Bottom line, the box is NOT doing even the most basic functions.

At this point, it's nothing but the equivalent of an 811 sitting next to a 721 with a bigger hard drive. :nono2:  :nono:


----------



## steinbr2

SimpleSimon said:


> I'd like to know if there's anything in this release for those of us that couldn't care less about OTA, OTA guides, or anything other than why we are E* customers. That is, satellite TV.


I'd like to echo this question.... Can you give those of us who just watch satellite something to look forward to?


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I am getting 0 seconds recordings on the hd stations like TNT, HBO Etc. I am not getting any on my ota stations. 

Dishdvr 921
boot version 120b
Flash version F051
Software version L188HECD-N


----------



## alipka

I used to only have loss of trick play and record functions on channel 57-1, WPSG-DT Philadelphia. Now I also have loss of these functions on channel 29-1, WTXF-DT.


----------



## FaxMan

While we are keeping this thread alive waiting patiently for the next release, would somebody please define or point to the definition of 'Trick Play'?

I've done some searching and have found the term frequently, I've been unable to find out what it is.


----------



## dishbacker

Trick-Play: The ability to pause, rewind, fastforward, etc. live tv without having a timer recording the program...


----------



## Mike D-CO5

I thought it was some new whore terminology. You know tricks , johns, pimps etc.:lol:


----------



## tm22721

I don't care about OTA either. This is a satellite company !

My unit is stable and I haven't seen any 0 length recordings (or other problems) for three months - ever since I installed an external timer to reboot my 921 every morning.


----------



## deweybrunner

189 tonight?


----------



## Grandude

I thought that 189 had arrived but then realized that, no, it was just the Sox winning the World Series.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

L189 tonight? Nope...not ready yet.


----------



## BobMurdoch

C'MOn hurry up!

2nd week in a row King of Queens on CBS-HD had a 0 sec. recording. Titles are wrong on my Mon-Fri recordings of Family Guy for me, and Lilo and Stitch and Kim Possible for our own beloved rugrats at Chez Murdoch. Smallville at 8pm didn't record last night, 9pm ep. did, and luckily I caught the blunder so I could catch it off the later rerun. The Blue line bug keeps rearing its ugly head on SD recordings and the 3-5 minute delay for a reboot just makes it worse.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

BobMurdoch said:


> ... The Blue line bug keeps rearing its ugly head on SD recordings and the 3-5 minute delay for a reboot just makes it worse.


That's one of the reasons you're not getting it today.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Mark Lamutt said:


> That's one of the reasons you're not getting it today.


 Meaning that L189 will now be retooled to include a fix for the blue line problems as well? Details please Mark.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Can't offer much yet other than there's a new driver version being tested at the moment that may resolve this issue.


----------



## Redster

I should ask Mark,, those of us that had issues with tricks on certain channels,, any word on that being fixed. The system engineer for channel 13-01, WTHR in Indy has told me that they are broadcasting PSIP and all the tricks worked back before L187. It would be nice to be able to record HD on this channel again .


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Most likely Redster. The OTA system has been just about completely overhauled. We now have a problem station here in Denver thanks to them starting to broadcast guide data in their psip stream. The beta that I currently have has no problems with that station at all. I'm really, really hoping that this one deals with most of the remaining OTA issues. (I know better than to wish it to take care of ALL of them... )


----------



## ocnier

Alright Mark, it's the start of a new week, any idea if it'll be out this week?


----------



## FaxMan

ocnier said:


> Alright Mark, it's the start of a new week, any idea if it'll be out this week?


Kind of reminds me of vacationing with the kids...

"Are we there yet?, Are we there yet?, How much Farther?, Are we there yet?"


----------



## srrobinson2

FaxMan said:


> Kind of reminds me of vacationing with the kids...
> 
> "Are we there yet?, Are we there yet?, How much Farther?, Are we there yet?"


Yeah, but when ya gotta go, ya gotta go!


----------



## jsanders

FaxMan said:


> Kind of reminds me of vacationing with the kids...
> 
> "Are we there yet?, Are we there yet?, How much Farther?, Are we there yet?"


The vacation has taken almost a year now. I think the kids are entitled to start harping out that question. The vacation should be over!


----------



## BobinStLouis

Yeah, I'd like to know when also - especially since no one at Dish is able to help and also the place I bought it from said they will not return this buggy POS. 2 Months now and still no Local Channels. How many times do I have to get a new moron on the phone from advanced tech support telling me to do the exact same thing?? I am infuriated to the lack of support and help from Dish. Not to mention being able to pass the buck to the local dealer and them being able to pass the buck to dish. Anyone know how much I can get for this thing on eBay!


----------



## kcook01

BobinStLouis,

I am assuming from your name that you live in St Louis. If not ignore. I live in the St Louis area (St Charles) and hooked up my 921 last week. I am able to pull all of the locals OTA off of an antennae in my attic with signal strength of 100+. Unbelievable picture. 

I'm not saying I don't have a couple issues with the 921 I am working through such as switching between HD/SD for 2nd TV and other remote not working on 2nd TV when in SD mode but no issues with the OTA. I am picking up 8 Digital channels.


----------



## BobinStLouis

Yes, I'm in St. Loius (Fenton) and I can get locks on 5 channels (100+ signal) but I cannot save them. Everytime I hit save, nothing happens. After arguing with Dish for over a month about my old 921 locking up and taking up to a minute to load the guide or info pages, they finally sent me a replacement. It fixed that lockup problems, but the same exact thing on the locals. It has been very disturbing that a $1,000 receiver has so many problems. Plus I do not think I should be forced to go buy a seperate Local HD tuner if I bought a $1000 receiver that it was suppose to be built into.
I have no clue what else to do.

Bob



kcook01 said:


> BobinStLouis,
> 
> I am assuming from your name that you live in St Louis. If not ignore. I live in the St Louis area (St Charles) and hooked up my 921 last week. I am able to pull all of the locals OTA off of an antennae in my attic with signal strength of 100+. Unbelievable picture.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't have a couple issues with the 921 I am working through such as switching between HD/SD for 2nd TV and other remote not working on 2nd TV when in SD mode but no issues with the OTA. I am picking up 8 Digital channels.


----------



## tahoerob

Here are the current dozen for sale:
http://search.ebay.com/Dish-921_Sat...tegoryZ61383QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1

Here are the recent completed sales:
http://search-completed.ebay.com/Di...usZ2QQsosortorderZ1QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsotrZ2


----------



## bbomar

Bob,

I assume you have tried restoring the 921 to factory defaults, rebooting,
and then doing a scan DTV?

Bruce



BobinStLouis said:


> Yes, I'm in St. Loius (Fenton) and I can get locks on 5 channels (100+ signal) but I cannot save them. Everytime I hit save, nothing happens. After arguing with Dish for over a month about my old 921 locking up and taking up to a minute to load the guide or info pages, they finally sent me a replacement. It fixed that lockup problems, but the same exact thing on the locals. It has been very disturbing that a $1,000 receiver has so many problems. Plus I do not think I should be forced to go buy a seperate Local HD tuner if I bought a $1000 receiver that it was suppose to be built into.
> I have no clue what else to do.
> 
> Bob


----------



## leemathre

Mark Lamutt said:


> Lee - your contact is correct about the first issue, but not the 2nd one. The scrambled preview window after deleting a program is _mostly_ fixed. I definitely don't buy the next release being mid-November, though. That's the time frame for L190.


Mark - It's beginning to look like my contact may have been right about L189 coming out in the middle of November. I can be patient as long as the new software is a good release.


----------



## kmcnamara

Mark Lamutt said:


> The OTA system has been just about completely overhauled.


OK, does that scare the crap out of anyone else? It works nearly perfectly for me now. When this new 'overhauled' version comes out, I'm concerned that a new slew of bugs will be introduced - at least in various DMA's.


----------



## ayalbaram

BobinStLouis said:


> I am infuriated to the lack of support and help from Dish. Not to mention being able to pass the buck to the local dealer and them being able to pass the buck to dish.


I happen to be one of those local dealers. It's not that we pass the buck to dish all we do is simply sell the receiver we don't manufacture it or write the SW. I always do my best t help my customers, but our hands are truly tied. If you think Dish is terrible to deal with as a customer I can tell you trhey are even worse to deal with as a dealer. And just so you all know we have no more information on the 921 then you do as evidence by the fact that I come here to find out whats going on.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

kmcnamara said:


> OK, does that scare the crap out of anyone else? It works nearly perfectly for me now. When this new 'overhauled' version comes out, I'm concerned that a new slew of bugs will be introduced - at least in various DMA's.


 Well, I can say that OTA worked well for me before, and now it works even better. I'll define "even better" after release.

As far as mid-November, yeah, it's starting to look that way, isn't it? I wish that wasn't the case, but this one isn't getting rushed out the door like some past versions. The stuff that I'm finding broken is getting fixed before it gets released. From my perspective, the beta process is working better for this version than it has in the past. The only downside to that is that it's taking longer than expected to get it ready.


----------



## kcook01

Bob,

From what I saw in setting up the 921 last week when you scan for DT channels they are automatically added to your "All Channel" and "All Sub" list - I don't remember having to "save" them after the scan but I could have done it out of habit.

I do have the issue of them not saving in my "Favorites" list as does everyone else but
from what I have read in this thread it is addressed in the next release.

My St Louis locals show up under "All Sub" and "All Channels" (blue highlight) from 002 FOX2 ... 030 ABC. These showed up even when my OTA antennae was undersized and I wasn't getting a good signal and it wasn't locking. 

Are you having the same issue with the analog channels?

I'm sure you have tried everything at this point but I would agree with Bbomar that a clean start might help and making sure that you have the correct software load.

Best of luck,

Ken


----------



## sgt940

Does the continued pushed back date of 189 push out OTA guide data by the same amount or are these being worked on by seperated teams. I don't mind waiting for 189 to be completely ready, but I would be really dissapointed if this delayed OTA guide data another two months.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Separate teams at Eldon.


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> As far as mid-November, yeah, it's starting to look that way, isn't it? I wish that wasn't the case, but this one isn't getting rushed out the door like some past versions. The stuff that I'm finding broken is getting fixed before it gets released. From my perspective, the beta process is working better for this version than it has in the past. The only downside to that is that it's taking longer than expected to get it ready.


I think Dish/Eldon have to be more methodical with releases than in times past if for no other reason than there are a lot more 921s out there now. Someone said they will even be appearing in Costco sometime in November. The initial shipments were obviously restricted, and I think the developers felt more free to take a little more risk than they do now.


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> Separate teams at Eldon.


Parallelism with orthogonal relationships are very good.


----------



## srrobinson2

Kind of like buying an expensive car and then waiting a year for the mechanics to figure out how to make the air conditioning work...


----------



## BobinStLouis

Bruce - Yes, I have tried rebooting, reseting defaults, everything (several times with at least 10 different advanced support techs)

Ken, if I scan either ATV or DTV it finds nothing. When I manually add DTV, it enter in it's number, get the signal meter up (5 over 100 and locked) I go to save them and nothing. Same things with my Analog channels. It certainly is a problem with the receiver though, just that I have no one willing to help me resolve this at all at Dish. Just another new tech that usually is much less knowledgeable about this receiver than I am. Lee has been the only exception, but still wasn't able to resolve my problem.


----------



## Scooters

I'm sure that the next version of the software will HAVE to be out in the next few weeks. Remember Charlie was pissed about missing the Holiday Season... LAST YEAR with the 921.

I can't imagine a release schedule that would alow this version of the software to continue for more than a couple of weeks. He can't afford to have any "negatives" about the 921 after Thanksgiving or he will miss the holiday buying season again.

Mark: Just curious, is this thread getting close to receiving the "most hits ever" award?


----------



## BobMurdoch

Nah, the Actor/Actress game thread probably wins that one.....


----------



## kcook01

Bob,

I know this isn't the thread to troubleshoot your issues but it does seem weird that we live in the same area and you are still having problems.

We may want to splinter this off to another thread so we can get some group help. I would be interested to know what type of antennae you have and what type of cable connection with switches you have setup. I know you believe it is a receiver problem but there could be other issues. 

I have had great luck with Ketterman Communications in Pittsfield,IL. They are a high-end dish troubleshooter and they are in our area quite a bit. When the local installers screw up an install they call Ketterman. They don't know a lot about 921 (he was at my house last friday) but they do know connections, boosters and such. 

In fact I called to report DP-34 issue on Friday at 5 and they were at my house by 7. Of course I always tip well but they always take care of you.


----------



## tahoerob

> Mark: Just curious, is this thread getting close to receiving the "most hits ever" award?


It has been fun watching it grow!!


----------



## Rodney

It appears any hope for a upgrade this week is rapidly going down the tube.


----------



## jsanders

It is very curious about all of that though... Dish really angered a lot of people here today with the new 921 plans. The last time they really got everyone super mad was when they dumped firewire on the 921. When that happened, we all ranted and Dish did one of their incomplete releases which caused us to focus on the new crappy version of software instead of the dishwire debacle. That release really looked like it was done in a rush, was very incomplete, really looked like a distraction tactic.

Looks like they might be sticking to their guns this time while they stick us with the shaft.


----------



## boylehome

jsanders said:


> Dish really angered a lot of people here today with the new 921 plans.


Could you elaborate on the new Dish Network 921 plans?


----------



## ocnier

Boylehome,
check out the thread about the new prices, a lot of people just got really screwed!!!! 189 is the last straw for me, if it doesn't live up to expectations, I swear I am dumping the 921 and buying a f*&kin HD TIVO. Furious doesn't begin to describe how I feel, with the price break the writing is on the wall: They are abandoning the 921!


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Enough. The 921 isn't getting abandoned. All of the info that I've received today is so that Dish sells a lot of units through the holiday season, pumping up the numbers vs the competition, and thereby pumping up their bottom line # of HD receivers sold for the year.

Yes it really sucks bigtime to have paid $1000 for a receiver that is now selling for $549. But the market drives prices, and at $549, Dish should be able to easily take the market with the 921, even if it doesn't work completely as advertised (yet). My former $650 television is now selling for $150 in stores. Three model years beyond my former $1200 receiver now goes for $600. 

Oh, and concerning the 942 - it is months away still. And not just 1 or 2. There's no way it's going to be ready until well after the first of the year.


----------



## dfergie

Same thing with dvds, cd's etc... thats the price you pay to be on the forefront of new technology...(ordered 921 today)


----------



## Mike123abc

Mark Lamutt said:


> Enough. The 921 isn't getting abandoned. All of the info that I've received today is so that Dish sells a lot of units through the holiday season, pumping up the numbers vs the competition, and thereby pumping up their bottom line # of HD receivers sold for the year.
> 
> Yes it really sucks bigtime to have paid $1000 for a receiver that is now selling for $549. But the market drives prices, and at $549, Dish should be able to easily take the market with the 921, even if it doesn't work completely as advertised (yet). My former $650 television is now selling for $150 in stores. Three model years beyond my former $1200 receiver now goes for $600.
> 
> Oh, and concerning the 942 - it is months away still. And not just 1 or 2. There's no way it's going to be ready until well after the first of the year.


I have to agree with Mark. Dish is discounting the 921 because the 942 is running way behind schedule. They have to have a compelling HD offer out for the hollidays and it is not going to be a free 942 (lease), so they do the next best thing and lower the price of the 921 down low enough to avoid losing the HD market like last year when the 921 missed shipping.

Remember AMC-15 is in orbit testing... Soon more HD could be coming in a big way, and Dish needs hardware to sell the programming with. They know they will make back the money on the 921 with a combination of $5 mirror fee, $5 DVR fee and $10 HD pack... That is $20/month that they can make it up fast. Not to mention the permanent problem of losing a customer because they did not have an HD hardware solution ready. Dish knows the most valuable customers are the ones that want to spend the bucks and get HD. I doubt many AT60 only customers will be opting for the 921. Next Christmas the free 942 (lease) with major market LIL HD will probably be selling points.


----------



## mkerdman

Would those with both say that the 921 is a good 2-Tuner SD DVR upgrade to the 721 just on the basis of it's SD feature set and operational reliability?

Or, are there still problems with the 921 simply when used as a 2-Tuner SD DVR? 

Does the satellite HD DVR aspect of the 921 work reliably well to record and time shift satellite HD only (HBOHD, SHOHD, and the HD Packages of channels)- not local OTA HD?


----------



## boylehome

Mike123abc said:


> Soon more HD could be coming in a big way


This is something I can wait to see happen.


----------



## Allen Noland

I may get a second 921 and replace my 721 and use it just to get 40-50 hours of HD total.


----------



## sleepy hollow

Anyone know what the reference to more HD coming means? Is Dish getting ready to add some more sat HD channels? I certainly hope so. 

As for the price drop, I cannot imagine how anyone who buys a piece of leading/bleeding edge consumer electronics gear can NOT expect the price to drop within months. 

I have had my 921 since Feb. I am quite happy with it. Just wish there were an archive function. Otherwise, it is great. I want more folks to get it so Dish continues to invest in s/w upgrades. Ain't no way the unit will go mass market at $1000. $549 is much more tempting. I believe the operative term here is "elasticity of demand." For consumer electronics, demand is highly elastic. We have known this since Texas Instruments brought the price of the digital watch down below $5 in the 1970s (which would be less than about $1 today).


----------



## tahoerob

mkerdman said:


> Would those with both say that the 921 is a good 2-Tuner SD DVR upgrade to the 721 just on the basis of it's SD feature set and operational reliability?
> 
> Or, are there still problems with the 921 simply when used as a 2-Tuner SD DVR?
> 
> Does the satellite HD DVR aspect of the 921 work reliably well to record and time shift satellite HD only (HBOHD, SHOHD, and the HD Packages of channels)- not local OTA HD?


I find myself almost exclusively watching HD. I have ~5 hours of HD recordings on my DVR hard drive at any given time. (both satellite & OTA)

It has worked well for me as a time shifting device regardless of satellite or OTA. Once you have a DVR, you will NEVER go back to watching TV w/o it! My kids even get upset about not being able to pause TV will traveling in hotels!!!

WELL WORTH IT AT $549!!!!!!


----------



## imhammed

tahoerob said:


> I find myself almost exclusively watching HD. I have ~5 hours of HD recordings on my DVR hard drive at any given time. (both satellite & OTA)
> 
> It has worked well for me as a time shifting device regardless of satellite or OTA. Once you have a DVR, you will NEVER go back to watching TV w/o it! My kids even get upset about not being able to pause TV will traveling in hotels!!!
> 
> WELL WORTH IT AT $549!!!!!!


I was just on a cruise last week, stayed in a nice suite with a 42 inch plasma, But I missed my 921 dearly. people shouldn't complain about price drops, its just how electronics are. my front dlp projector cost me $9000 last year and is now $5000. High tec toys are a great lifestyle investment but a terrible financial one. I love that the price dropped now I can talk my wife into one more.


----------



## jsanders

Mike123abc said:


> Remember AMC-15 is in orbit testing... Soon more HD could be coming in a big way, and Dish needs hardware to sell the programming with. They know they will make back the money on the 921 with a combination of $5 mirror fee, $5 DVR fee and $10 HD pack... That is $20/month that they can make it up fast. Not to mention the permanent problem of losing a customer because they did not have an HD hardware solution ready. Dish knows the most valuable customers are the ones that want to spend the bucks and get HD. I doubt many AT60 only customers will be opting for the 921. Next Christmas the free 942 (lease) with major market LIL HD will probably be selling points.


The more people you sign up at a $500 loss doesn't mean you can make up that loss any quicker. $500/$20 = 25 months. A little over two years. If they are signing up to Dish for the first time, that gets extended out even further. I suspect that $549 is below cost.

As for AT60 customers, yep, I was an AT60 customer. Not anymore, I dropped AT60 and do just the HD pack. That means more of a loosing proposition for dish. The only way they could eek more money out of me is to not do the programming guide. That way they get me to spend an extra $6/mo for locals. Once the guide data comes along, they will loose another $6/mo. Bottom line is, I don't like to watch Satellite SD, it is too compressed. I will watch OTA SD though.

I do think Dish would like to increase their HD market share though. This could help that tremendously. I told my colleagues at work about this, as they just bought HD TVs. They knew the old price, they knew the new price, I still can't convince them to do it though.


----------



## Eagles

Well, it looks like L189 will not be ready for the Tech Chat guys to talk about on Monday.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Nope...unfortunately. Maybe next week, although I'm starting to think more realistically we're looking at the 18th or 19th.


----------



## dfergie

What software edition is on the new units from the factory? and what issues should I expect until I get upgrade? btw with only 1 ota digital I will not hook up ota for now...


----------



## ocnier

fair enough guys, I'm better now that the ramifications have sunk in (thank god I don't have hypertension, I'd probably woulda stroked by now, lol).... Sorry Mark


----------



## sgt940

Mark, well said I do not know of a single newly introduce product that has not dropped in price significantly after 1 year of introduction thats the price you pay for new technology. That aside however I do feel Dishnetwork owes me some sort of compensation for selling me a product that after 11 months still does not work properly or have the advertised features. Right now I would be happy with just a token, like a free months service. Next time I upgrade a reciever I will think long and hard wether it will be Dish and I have been a Dish customer since the beginning and never a basher. Honest dates for fixes, some sort of minor compensation would have made this a lot easier.


----------



## boylehome

A_Noland said:


> I may get a second 921 and replace my 721 and use it just to get 40-50 hours of HD total.


That is what I will do if the L189 proves positive. That way I can use two OTA antennas aimed in different directions, as I have stations that are about 90 degrees apart from each other. Now the new price is softer on the wallet. Like others though, I would like to see some sort of credit for us who paid $1k for lots of hardships and disappointments. Who knows, maybe Charlie will have the Christmas Spirit? BTW Mark, I don't think that it is unreasonable for people to vent their frustrations here. I think that the posts are a good source of frustration relief/release.


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> Nope...unfortunately. Maybe next week, although I'm starting to think more realistically we're looking at the 18th or 19th.


Mark, Can you give some general insight as to why this keeps getting pushed back. Not to be a pessimist, but is there anything happening as far as your concerned which may indicate the 18th or 19th is not just another possible target date which will come and go without a SW update?


----------



## jsanders

It all depends how the builds are being qualified.

You could look at the build and ask yourself, "Is it better than what the customers have now?" If the answer is, "yes", then give it to them.

Another way to look at it is to have a set list of bugs that you want to be fixed for the next release. If not all of those bugs are checked off the list, then don't release it.

There could also be a combination of those two, with what you might term as "show stoppers", consipicuous bugs that you don't want a customer to see, but that you might be willing to let some more obscure ones on the list slide.

Maybe we need to ask if there are showstoppers, or if there are just some annoying little bugs that they are trying to hammer out for the release.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

jsanders, I'd really love to be able to answer that. But that crosses into territory that I can't talk about yet. 

So, here's what I can and will say. Is the current beta better than what you have now? Yes, it is. Is there a set list of bugs that need to be fixed before release? There is one that has to be fixed before release. The rest fall into the annoyance category.

I threw out the 18th or the 19th because 921 software usually downloads on Thursday or Friday afternoons, and that's the date that some CSRs are telling people who call.


----------



## kstevens

Mark Lamutt said:


> jsanders, I'd really love to be able to answer that. But that crosses into territory that I can't talk about yet.
> 
> So, here's what I can and will say. Is the current beta better than what you have now? Yes, it is. Is there a set list of bugs that need to be fixed before release? There is one that has to be fixed before release. The rest fall into the annoyance category.
> 
> I threw out the 18th or the 19th because 921 software usually downloads on Thursday or Friday afternoons, and that's the date that some CSRs are telling people who call.


Well, if the CSRs are saying this, then we know it is wrong :lol: :lol:

Ken


----------



## tnsprin

dfergie said:


> What software edition is on the new units from the factory? and what issues should I expect until I get upgrade? btw with only 1 ota digital I will not hook up ota for now...


None. Just a starter system. The initial sofware must be downloaded.


----------



## dfergie

tnsprin said:


> None. Just a starter system. The initial sofware must be downloaded.


Thanks...


----------



## SimpleSimon

mkerdman said:


> Would those with both say that the 921 is a good 2-Tuner SD DVR upgrade to the 721 just on the basis of it's SD feature set and operational reliability?
> 
> Or, are there still problems with the 921 simply when used as a 2-Tuner SD DVR?
> 
> Does the satellite HD DVR aspect of the 921 work reliably well to record and time shift satellite HD only (HBOHD, SHOHD, and the HD Packages of channels)- not local OTA HD?


For the purposes you say, go ahead and get a 921. As I've said elsewhere, the 921 is best thought of as a 721 with a bigger HDD, and some live HD functionality.

For example, while HD recordings (satellite or OTA) are unreliable, trick play of satellite HD works pretty well - and even when it flakes out, you can get it working again by changing channels away and back.

Worth the $1K I paid for it? NO - never was, never will be, because E* screwed us - deliberately, with forethought and malice. 

Worth $550, yeah, pretty much.

Finally, do I think E* is losing money on each sale at $550? No way - not for a NY second. I know what hardware costs when you buy in kilo-quantities, and there's nothing in the box that could be considered "expensive".


----------



## mkerdman

SimpleSimon said:


> For the purposes you say, go ahead and get a 921. As I've said elsewhere, the 921 is best thought of as a 721 with a bigger HDD, and some live HD functionality.
> 
> For example, while HD recordings (satellite or OTA) are unreliable- QUOTE]
> 
> Yikes!
> 
> How can it reliably record SD, but not HD, satellite streams?
> 
> Murray Kerdman


----------



## 4HiMarks

mkerdman said:


> SimpleSimon said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the purposes you say, go ahead and get a 921. As I've said elsewhere, the 921 is best thought of as a 721 with a bigger HDD, and some live HD functionality.
> 
> For example, while HD recordings (satellite or OTA) are unreliable- QUOTE]
> 
> Yikes!
> 
> How can it reliably record SD, but not HD, satellite streams?
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problems recording either SD or HD, from sat, or OTA. YMMV.
> 
> -Chris
Click to expand...


----------



## SimpleSimon

mkerdman said:


> How can it reliably record SD, but not HD, satellite streams?


Yeah. Hard to believe, but a prime example of why the 921 software is such a POS.

Emperical analysis has shown that contrary to the simplistic view that DVRs simply insert a hard drive between the tuner and the output, there's obviously a LOT more going on. And the way they did it is the problem.

You'd think they'd simply write a file and create a (rather complex) directory entry, but it seems to me that they put some screwy processing in there, too. There's no other explanation for why you can be watching something that is (supposedly) being buffered/recorded to disk and having it display perfectly, but NOT be in the buffer, or later appear as a 0 second recording.

Much of this seems centered around timer event scheduling and such. That is, from reading the threads, and watching the boxes behavior, it appears that when HD or OTA timers are adjacent or overlapping, things get screwy.

In a reasonable design, there should be no difference between SD, HD, or OTA at that level, but there is.

To speculate, it seems that the system designers couldn't deal with modules or objects. Maybe they're even stuck in 1970's state/event logic tables. It was popular for real-time processing back then.

Whether I'm right with my design speculations or not,  it's still a sad state of affairs. At least you're going in with eyes wide open.


----------



## mkerdman

SimpleSimon said:


> Yeah. Hard to believe, but a prime example of why the 921 software is such a POS.
> 
> Emperical analysis has shown that contrary to the simplistic view that DVRs simply insert a hard drive between the tuner and the output, there's obviously a LOT more going on. And the way they did it is the problem.
> 
> You'd think they'd simply write a file and create a (rather complex) directory entry, but it seems to me that they put some screwy processing in there, too. There's no other explanation for why you can be watching something that is (supposedly) being buffered/recorded to disk and having it display perfectly, but NOT be in the buffer, or later appear as a 0 second recording.
> 
> Much of this seems centered around timer event scheduling and such. That is, from reading the threads, and watching the boxes behavior, it appears that when HD or OTA timers are adjacent or overlapping, things get screwy.
> 
> In a reasonable design, there should be no difference between SD, HD, or OTA at that level, but there is.
> 
> To speculate, it seems that the system designers couldn't deal with modules or objects. Maybe they're even stuck in 1970's state/event logic tables. It was popular for real-time processing back then.
> 
> Whether I'm right with my design speculations or not,  it's still a sad state of affairs. At least you're going in with eyes wide open.


To what do you attribute other users such the prior posters having success with the 921 ?


----------



## srrobinson2

mkerdman said:


> To what do you attribute other users such the prior posters having success with the 921 ?


I got my 921 in January. I agree that it was not worth $1000 and never will be. I also had no idea that I was paying a huge price to beta test a product in what has been the longest beta cycle I've ever witnessed. All that being said, here's what does and does not work with my 921:

DOES WORK LIST​ 
Satellite on-screen guide (9 days worth) recording for sat HD and SD content
Good HD picture and sound from OTA and sat HD sources
RGB ouput, s-video output and coax output all at same time
Digital audio (using optical link)
On-screen caller-id

DOES NOT WORK LIST​ 
OTA on-screen guide
Poor SD picture (verticle blue and green lines) when in HD mode

At least in my case, there seem to only be two issues remaining. There may be others, but they aren't everyday issues. As for these two issues, the lack of OTA guide means that I have to create manual timers to record OTA content, and then it appears in the DVR list with the station's call letters instead of the show information, which makes finding recordings a bit difficult. The vertical lines that appear when watching SD content in HD mode (using RGB connection) are supposed to be a software issue. I actually sent my 921 back to Dish for a fix many months ago to resolve this issue, but it came back in pretty much the same condition--with the lines intact. My workaround is to view SD content through my S-Video connection, which does not look as good, but at least there are no annoying vertical lines.

As for the $1000, I wanted an HD DVR, and that seemed to be my only choice at the time. Use this information and make your own decisions. Good luck!


----------



## DonLandis

_"Finally, do I think E* is losing money on each sale at $550? No way - not for a NY second. I know what hardware costs when you buy in kilo-quantities, and there's nothing in the box that could be considered "expensive"."_

Simon- agree with much of what you said but this, not so.

The difference here is I know that based on strict raw cost per unit you have a valid point but, likewise, in making and selling a product the cost basis is much greater than just the raw cost. You have to recognize that E* most certainly has not recouped it's R&D cost and because of the inferior nature of the product and other reasons, the sales have been low exacerbating the problem of cost recovery. Sales have been low due to 1. low availability, 2. Not being competitive $ for $, with the nearest similar product (HDTIVO). 3. Bad PR with respect to the advertised feature (Dishwire) and then the failure to deliver this. 4. rumor leakes on a better, different product (942) soon to replace the 921. 
The effect of the 4 reasons for low sales have made it difficult to impossible to recover the soft costs to bring the 921 to market. Now with reduced price, bringing the 921 closer to a cost vs. featureset comparison to the HDTIVO, E* may improve sales if it can make the product in sufficient quantities to have them in non-backorder status but walk into any Dish dealer and ask... you get the stares and the shaking of the head that these are still heavily backordered and dealers push you to other products they have, like the 811 and 721.

I do say that for the most part my 921 works fairly well and rarely fails to record a timed program. In fact I can't recall a time when it last failed. The last major problems I have had with the 921 was mid summer when we went through a software update requiring PSIP fixed data to be present. Of course the problem here, locally, for me was solved by the station complying with FCC's lastest regulation on PSIP. Not all stations across the nation complied in a timely manner and thus some still have the problem. Additionally, some annoying bugs still hang in there but I have faith that some day these will also get fixed, such as some stations refuse to allow DVR function at all. This is a unique issue with the 921 and does not affect other DVRs like the HDTIVO or 721 or 500 series.

Bottom line is.. MY recommendation would be to ONLY buy the 921 today even at the new reduced price point if you wish to remain with Dish Network for other reasons such as you favor their programming choices over the competition. The 921, in and of itself is no reason to get with DishNetwork over the competition.

For 2005, I plan to revisit my breakout of DBS services to determine how I plan to continue. I now have the AEP plan and once my year is up with that in January, if Dish does not offer more compelling programming in HDTV I will roll my AEP plan way back to maybe just the HD stuff and beef up my DirecTV.

I still use my 921 as a base tuner and actively use the DVR features so I do not plan on dropping altogether.

MY biggest fear today with these software upgrades is they will break something that now works. The 921 works well enough for me that I could live without any more software upgrades and I would not be concerned. When it comes, it comes and I am not bothered by the fact that we have been with this version for the longest time now.

Mark- My vote is to just keep your next release until all are sure it will improve us all. If there is any doubt, keep it!


----------



## boylehome

SimpleSimon said:


> Yeah. Hard to believe, but a prime example of why the 921 software is such a POS.
> 
> Emperical analysis has shown that contrary to the simplistic view that DVRs simply insert a hard drive between the tuner and the output, there's obviously a LOT more going on. And the way they did it is the problem.
> 
> You'd think they'd simply write a file and create a (rather complex) directory entry, but it seems to me that they put some screwy processing in there, too. There's no other explanation for why you can be watching something that is (supposedly) being buffered/recorded to disk and having it display perfectly, but NOT be in the buffer, or later appear as a 0 second recording.
> 
> Much of this seems centered around timer event scheduling and such. That is, from reading the threads, and watching the boxes behavior, it appears that when HD or OTA timers are adjacent or overlapping, things get screwy.
> 
> In a reasonable design, there should be no difference between SD, HD, or OTA at that level, but there is.
> 
> To speculate, it seems that the system designers couldn't deal with modules or objects. Maybe they're even stuck in 1970's state/event logic tables. It was popular for real-time processing back then.
> 
> Whether I'm right with my design speculations or not,  it's still a sad state of affairs. At least you're going in with eyes wide open.


SimpleSimon - I remember that previous threads informded us that the L188 would fix these Timer-DVR problems.


----------



## SimpleSimon

mkerdman said:


> To what do you attribute other users such the prior posters having success with the 921 ?


It seems to vary with usage patterns. People that aren't heavily using timer-based recordings don't seem to be having near the number of problems that power-users have.

For example, I regularly bump up against the 64 timer limit - how many others do? I have timers stacked back-to-back-to-back ALL the time, so when I add a timer on a different channel, I see the issue with the box not being able to record something it's already recording, thereby losing my padding. And so forth, and so on.

To compare it with computers, someone that uses basic MS Office (Word, Excel, Outlook), and nothing else is not going to see nearly as many Windows problems as a power user. However, the problems still exist.


DonLandis said:


> Simon- agree with much of what you said but this, not so.
> 
> The difference here is I know that based on strict raw cost per unit you have a valid point but, ...


Absolutely - I agree with what you said. I was speaking only of the per-unit hardware costs.


boylehome said:


> SimpleSimon - I remember that previous threads informded us that the L188 would fix these Timer-DVR problems.


Actually, IIRC, L188 was also focused on OTA timer fixes - which leads us back to the original point - the different video sources are handled in MUCH different ways, thereby explaining why basic SD recording works 99% of the time, but other things not as well. For me, satellite HD recordings have a 80% success rate and much (all?) of the troublesome ones have to do with other timers "getting in the way".


----------



## ggw2000

SimpleSimon said:


> Yeah. Hard to believe, but a prime example of why the 921 software is such a POS.
> 
> Emperical analysis has shown that contrary to the simplistic view that DVRs simply insert a hard drive between the tuner and the output, there's obviously a LOT more going on. And the way they did it is the problem.
> 
> You'd think they'd simply write a file and create a (rather complex) directory entry, but it seems to me that they put some screwy processing in there, too. There's no other explanation for why you can be watching something that is (supposedly) being buffered/recorded to disk and having it display perfectly, but NOT be in the buffer, or later appear as a 0 second recording.
> 
> Much of this seems centered around timer event scheduling and such. That is, from reading the threads, and watching the boxes behavior, it appears that when HD or OTA timers are adjacent or overlapping, things get screwy.
> 
> In a reasonable design, there should be no difference between SD, HD, or OTA at that level, but there is.
> 
> To speculate, it seems that the system designers couldn't deal with modules or objects. Maybe they're even stuck in 1970's state/event logic tables. It was popular for real-time processing back then.
> 
> Whether I'm right with my design speculations or not,  it's still a sad state of affairs. At least you're going in with eyes wide open.
> 
> Simplesimon, having followed this forum for 10 months and having a 921 for the same amount of time, I see that your normally positive attitude has taken a change for the worse  . Is this because of the price drop of the 921? or because of the recurring problem of late with the damn "0" sec recordings? My 921 has been running reasonably well for the past few months but I have had a few 0 sec recordings on HD Sat recordings lately. This really p*sses me off. Since there has been no updates during this period I'm trying to figure WHY? Other than that it working ok. As far as price, all of the people who are b*tching ought to crawl back in their holes. If you have the knowledge and smarts to use and read forums then you knew what you were getting into - period! If you want to be on the leading edge then it will cost you! Has it taken more time to stabilize this unit than I thought- you can bet your sweet bippy. But I bought one knowing what I was getting into and for what it has done for me in the past 10 months, it was a good decision  .
> Gerry


----------



## mkerdman

I have 3 other satellite PC & D-VHS HD satellite recording solutions that while they too have their issues, they do work, and the comments here and elsewhere make it seems silly for me to buy a 921 at any price when my prime motivation would be to get a point-and-click simple "appliance" solution which works 99.9% of the time without any thought on my part- like a Cable HD-HVR or HD-Tivo as far as simply and reliably getting my recordings.

The 921 does not sound like that solution.

My 721 is pretty good.

Is the 921 at least that reliable/good when recording HD satellite?


----------



## boylehome

ggw2000 said:


> Simplesimon, having followed this forum for 10 months and having a 921 for the same amount of time, I see that your normally positive attitude has taken a change for the worse  . Gerry


I think that a lot of us are in the same flame as SimpleSimon. I relate to his posts. The price drop, and the continued problems seem to take their toll. Personally I think the 921 issues are temporary and will get much closer to 100% better. One thing that really got my goat is the disappearing dish wires. Oh well  I live in the land of higher taxes


----------



## sgt940

mkerdman said:


> I have 3 other satellite PC & D-VHS HD satellite recording solutions that while they too have their issues, they do work, and the comments here and elsewhere make it seems silly for me to buy a 921 at any price when my prime motivation would be to get a point-and-click simple "appliance" solution which works 99.9% of the time without any thought on my part- like a Cable HD-HVR or HD-Tivo as far as simply and reliably getting my recordings.
> 
> The 921 does not sound like that solution.
> 
> My 721 is pretty good.
> 
> Is the 921 at least that reliable/good when recording HD satellite?


Well I have to way in, I too have had my 921 since the first of January and use it extensivly for SD and HD recordings both Satellite and OTA, it really does work 99% of the time. As for simple point and click as soon as the OTA guide data works it will be. In two months (1 year later) I am comfortable it will be 99% of what is was advertised to be. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT I STILL QUESTION MY SANITY OF STICKING WITH A DEFECTIVE PRODUCT FOR A YEAR! Oh well what is 2 more months at this point.


----------



## mkerdman

sgt940 said:


> Well I have to way in, I too have had my 921 since the first of January and use it extensivly for SD and HD recordings both Satellite and OTA, it really does work 99% of the time. As for simple point and click as soon as the OTA guide data works it will be. In two months (1 year later) I am comfortable it will be 99% of what is was advertised to be. HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT I STILL QUESTION MY SANITY OF STICKING WITH A DEFECTIVE PRODUCT FOR A YEAR! Oh well what is 2 more months at this point.


sgt940

So, is it ~100% reliable "point-and-click" on SD and HD satellite recordings, including back-to-back ones (forget about OTA entirely for the moment)?


----------



## SimpleSimon

ggw2000 said:


> Simplesimon, having followed this forum for 10 months and having a 921 for the same amount of time, I see that your normally positive attitude has taken a change for the worse  . Is this because of the price drop of the 921? or because of the recurring problem of late with the damn "0" sec recordings? My 921 has been running reasonably well for the past few months but I have had a few 0 sec recordings on HD Sat recordings lately. This really p*sses me off. Since there has been no updates during this period I'm trying to figure WHY? Other than that it working ok. As far as price, all of the people who are b*tching ought to crawl back in their holes. If you have the knowledge and smarts to use and read forums then you knew what you were getting into - period! If you want to be on the leading edge then it will cost you! Has it taken more time to stabilize this unit than I thought- you can bet your sweet bippy. But I bought one knowing what I was getting into and for what it has done for me in the past 10 months, it was a good decision  .
> Gerry


It's not the fact that they dropped the price by 45% thereby turning the marketplace upside down and screwing quite a few people - users and retailers both. How would you feel if you bought one the day before they dropped the price by THAT MUCH???

It's not the fact that rumor has it they just redesigned the whole OTA subsystem - something we were yelling for all the way back at the beginning.

It's not the fact that they promised us DishWire - and if not explicitly, then strongly implying that it could be used for archiving.

It's not the fact that the box is unreliable when doing what it's designed to do - record HD - Sat or OTA.

It's not the fact that the software-caused video artifacts on both HD & SD, are apparently not being fixed. Or even the still bad stretch/zoom modes.

It's not the fact ....

Oh hell, YEAH - it IS all those things, and a lot more.


----------



## mkerdman

SimpleSimon said:


> It's not the fact that they dropped the price by 45% thereby turning the marketplace upside down and screwing quite a few people - users and retailers both. How would you feel if you bought one the day before they dropped the price by THAT MUCH???
> 
> It's not the fact that rumor has it they just redesigned the whole OTA subsystem - something we were yelling for all the way back at the beginning.
> 
> It's not the fact that they promised us DishWire - and if not explicitly, then strongly implying that it could be used for archiving.
> 
> It's not the fact that the box is unreliable when doing what it's designed to do - record HD - Sat or OTA.
> 
> It's not the fact that the software-caused video artifacts on both HD & SD, are apparently not being fixed. Or even the till bad stretch/zoom modes.
> 
> It's not the fact ....
> 
> Oh hell, YEAH - it IS all those things, and a lot more.


Simon

Foregting the past 11 months completely, if you had it to do all over again todaybut at $549 - would you?


----------



## SimpleSimon

mkerdman: Double-posters are bad enough, but someone that posts the identical question FIVE times, doesn't deserve ANY answers. Especially when the question deserved it's own thread, not as OT junk in others.


----------



## mkerdman

srrobinson2 said:


> I DOES WORK LIST​
> Satellite on-screen guide (9 days worth) recording for sat HD and SD content
> Good HD picture and sound from OTA and sat HD sources
> RGB ouput, s-video output and coax output all at same time
> Digital audio (using optical link)
> On-screen caller-id
> 
> DOES NOT WORK LIST​
> OTA on-screen guide
> Poor SD picture (verticle blue and green lines) when in HD mode
> 
> The vertical lines that appear when watching SD content in HD mode (using RGB connection) are supposed to be a software issue. I actually sent my 921 back to Dish for a fix many months ago to resolve this issue, but it came back in pretty much the same condition--with the lines intact. My workaround is to view SD content through my S-Video connection, which does not look as good, but at least there are no annoying vertical lines.


Does anyone know it the DVI ouput, s-video output and coax output all at same time?

If so, does the DVI and component also both work at the same time?

Arew there any artifacts or impairments to the DVI output when viewing SD or HD?

Does the SD content get upconverted and look better over DVI than it does over S-Video?

Does the 921 have a "native rate" output mode, or must you choose a single output resolution (720P or 1080i) that can only be overriden in the Menu?


----------



## boylehome

mkerdman said:


> Does anyone know it the DVI ouput, s-video output and coax output all at same time?
> 
> If so, does the DVI and component also both work at the same time?
> 
> Arew there any artifacts or impairments to the DVI output when viewing SD or HD?
> 
> Does the SD content get upconverted and look better over DVI than it does over S-Video?
> 
> Does the 921 have a "native rate" output mode, or must you choose a single output resolution (720P or 1080i) that can only be overriden in the Menu?


You can find the answers to your questions in past posts. These questions have been answered many times. Take a look and see.


----------



## keitheva

Have to chip in my $0.02 on the joys of 921 ownership  

I have had mine now for nigh on 11 months. Yes there have been numerous GSOD's. Yes there have been struggles with scanning and saving and tuning OTA stations. Yes there have been problems with the favorites list, and 0 second recordings, and no OTA guide info, and, and, ...

But despite it all, for the most part, I have had a DVR which allowed me to record OTA and satellite in HD for 11 months, when there was no other way to obtain that functionality. That's worth a lot to me (otherwise the $3K I spent on an HDTV would have been pretty much wasted).

And lately, I really haven't had any trouble with it at all.

Sure I'd rather have bought it for $500, but I didn't want to wait 11 months to get it. It's called "opportunity cost".

Cheers,
-Keith


----------



## DonLandis

I have no hopes that E*'s next releases that do OTA guides will be 100% perfect. The OTA guides don't work 100% in any of the other receivers, including the HDTIVO. The problem is that the stations themselves publish inaccurate guide info and therefore no receiver using this information will work properly.


----------



## srrobinson2

DonLandis said:


> I have no hopes that E*'s next releases that do OTA guides will be 100% perfect. The OTA guides don't work 100% in any of the other receivers, including the HDTIVO. The problem is that the stations themselves publish inaccurate guide info and therefore no receiver using this information will work properly.


But for those of us who are serviced by E* for locals--why don't they use the guide information for their crummy analog re-transmissions of our local channels?


----------



## Slordak

I find myself using my 921 in a sort of neurotic way, with my behaviors being automatically adjusted to specifically avoid bugs and quirks. When other people in my household try to use it without knowing these "special rules", I wind up receiving reports about how the "TV was broken this morning". Examples:

1) If I'm watching a Sirius music channel, I make sure to tune the 921 to another channel first before shutting it off (i.e. putting it into standby).

2) When I'm setting up recordings, I make sure not to try any back to back recordings; I try to leave at least 30 minutes between them to avoid having to muck with the padding and tuner re-use issues.

3) If the system starts acting up too badly or getting too unresponsive, I go behind the unit and unplug the 921 and then plug it back in. I make sure the TV is powered on while the 921 is rebooting, to avoid any DVI synchronization issues.

4) I've learned to look at the guide for the local channels in the 8000 range to see what's going to be shown on the OTA channels. I've also learned to not try and access the OTA locals via the guide (since they're not there on the favorites list), but rather to directly enter their (remapped) channel number instead.

5) When the receiver is recording something while watching something else, use of the remote is curtailed, to avoid accidentally pressing the "Stop" key and killing the recording by accident.

6) When configuring favorites lists, I try and memorize ahead of time which channels I actually subscribe to and which I don't (e.g. "Is that channel in AT120 or AT180?" when I only have AT120). This is because there is no color-coding for channels when working on favorites lists.

If L189 could fix just half of these, my viewing experience would be greatly enhanced, as would the experience of those not familiar with how to deal with these... issues.


----------



## ocnier

Slordak, you hit the nail on the head! Your summation completely addresses the flaws and problem of the 921 as a consumer product. It's almost comical in a way when you consider that you just about have to be neurotic in terms of rituals needed to assure successful use (next you know we'll have do a rain dance to the tikki gods off the brady show each morning in order to assure the unit functioning! :lol: :lol: ). I find myself doing many of the same things or least teaching my spouse on certain points to assure harmony. The situation (after I read your post) became very clear to me the level of absurdity and comedy that the situation has progressed to. I just wish that dish could see this and change their system somehow. I have read posts in the past about how dish could have bought other companies that already have experience in the field, but instead chose to go it alone and therefore become more subject to the learning curve pains of product development. I don't know what the answer is but after your post I hope dish realizes the culture they are responsible for creating, and they hopefully find a creative fix for it (the point is it's not just the 921 it's the system/company itself)


----------



## tedhny

Slordak said:


> I find myself using my 921 in a sort of neurotic way, with my behaviors being automatically adjusted to specifically avoid bugs and quirks. When other people in my household try to use it without knowing these "special rules", I wind up receiving reports about how the "TV was broken this morning". Examples:
> 
> 1) If I'm watching a Sirius music channel, I make sure to tune the 921 to another channel first before shutting it off (i.e. putting it into standby).
> 
> 2) When I'm setting up recordings, I make sure not to try any back to back recordings; I try to leave at least 30 minutes between them to avoid having to muck with the padding and tuner re-use issues.
> 
> 3) If the system starts acting up too badly or getting too unresponsive, I go behind the unit and unplug the 921 and then plug it back in. I make sure the TV is powered on while the 921 is rebooting, to avoid any DVI synchronization issues.
> 
> 4) I've learned to look at the guide for the local channels in the 8000 range to see what's going to be shown on the OTA channels. I've also learned to not try and access the OTA locals via the guide (since they're not there on the favorites list), but rather to directly enter their (remapped) channel number instead.
> 
> 5) When the receiver is recording something while watching something else, use of the remote is curtailed, to avoid accidentally pressing the "Stop" key and killing the recording by accident.
> 
> 6) When configuring favorites lists, I try and memorize ahead of time which channels I actually subscribe to and which I don't (e.g. "Is that channel in AT120 or AT180?" when I only have AT120). This is because there is no color-coding for channels when working on favorites lists.
> 
> If L189 could fix just half of these, my viewing experience would be greatly enhanced, as would the experience of those not familiar with how to deal with these... issues.


Wow! I have gripes with the 921, but not nearly as much trouble as you.

I often leave the machine with Sirius on - no problem with standby recordings.

I regularly do back to back and even simultaneous recordings where one is back to back with the previous or next.

The 921 is in my bedroom, so I turn off its powerstrip every night and reboot most days, this may be part of the reason things go well. But never worry about TV being on or off when I do this.

I usually program from the 8000 channels and then edit to the didgital locals.

Not that this means the 921 is not frustrating - far from it - but I do appreciate the week+ program guide, and frankly got the machine when it was the only game in town and I wanted to timeshift Sopranos.

I have a SD Tivo at work - and miss having the guide and time-based recordings. Though Season Passes make it easy.

Too bad Apple doens't make a DVR.


----------



## jsanders

The 921 has apparently been discontinued now.

If this is true, then why even bother with bug fixes when they don't even plan to grow the customer base with them?

I wonder how Dish has managed to stay in business this long if they do indeed do stuff like this.


----------



## ayalbaram

The 921 has not been discontinued


----------



## DonLandis

srrobinson2 said:


> But for those of us who are serviced by E* for locals--why don't they use the guide information for their crummy analog re-transmissions of our local channels?


Fine if your assumption is true that the digital channels at the local stations mirrors the analog channels. Not so for many stations today and it will continue to be less and less as stations venture into thir multicasting schedules for the digitals. Banking on the analog program schedules for local digitals is a formula for huge disappointment!
Currently in Jacksonville, we have 5 channels that do not mirror the analog counterparts. Consequently, even the TIVO is useless for NBR scheduling.


----------



## boylehome

DonLandis said:


> Fine if your assumption is true that the digital channels at the local stations mirrors the analog channels. Not so for many stations today and it will continue to be less and less as stations venture into thir multicasting schedules for the digitals. Banking on the analog program schedules for local digitals is a formula for huge disappointment!
> Currently in Jacksonville, we have 5 channels that do not mirror the analog counterparts. Consequently, even the TIVO is useless for NBR scheduling.


I can only imagine what kind of information the affiliates will provided for their programming. I certainly hope that the actual networks will put a tight leash on them for network program infomation. Hopefully, there will be a someone to suggest improvements.


----------



## jsanders

ayalbaram said:


> The 921 has not been discontinued


That is a very bold statement, do you represent Dish or something?

Here is how I have heard that it is discontinued:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=33343&page=2&pp=15

Read response #28, you can even do a "find" for the string "#28" to navigate. It is about an email from E*, stating the 921 is discontinued.

Why do you believe it isn't discontinued?


----------



## Mark Lamutt

We have dealers and the engineering dept at Dish saying that it's not discontinued. And we have a message from Jim DeFranco sent to Scott.

But, I'm still back to - don't expect the 942 anytime soon, regardless of the status of the 921.


----------



## jsanders

The plot is still thick...... It doesn't make sense to scrap the 921 just yet, that is for sure. On the other hand, nothing they have done with the 921 so far has made any sense either. Don't know what to believe myself.


----------



## guruka

Hey Keith - I just want to verify your experience. I've had my 921 since January 2004 and enjoy it constantly, recording SD and HD sat and OTA broadcasts without a hitch. It's been months since I had a missed recording, a crashed OS or a 0 second recording.

.....G


----------



## boylehome

guruka said:


> Hey Keith - I just want to verify your experience. I've had my 921 since January 2004 and enjoy it constantly, recording SD and HD sat and OTA broadcasts without a hitch. It's been months since I had a missed recording, a crashed OS or a 0 second recording.
> 
> .....G


You have a miracle 921!


----------



## Mark Lamutt

Just officially announced on the Tech Forum - November 18th for L189, and the last week of November or first week of December for L190/L201 depending on what they call it.


----------



## rbyers

boylehome said:


> You have a miracle 921!


Then, I guess that I do also.


----------



## Scott Greczkowski

Did you notice the first time that Dan said OTA guide data and Dish Home Interactive would be available in the last week of November or first week of december update, then later on he omitted the Dish Home Interactive part.

I want my Karaoke damnit.


----------



## Cyclone

Didn' the May Tech forum promise NBR on the 522 by the end of the summer? Their hard dates are not water proof.


----------



## DonLandis

This is how excited I get about Tech and Charlie chats anymore...
I chose to watch Haunted Mansion for the second time on DVD instead. 

My 921 is doing a fine job. No breakdowns or freezeups or timer failures in months. If they get OTA guides, I already know I won't be able to use them for recording on many of my stations. And that will not be the fault of the 921. The only thing that would get me excited about the 921 anymore will be if they announce swappable hard drives or re-offer dishwire for archiving. 

I suspect that unless Dish does some real offers for early 2005, they will lose my AEP account each month. I'll maintain a token HD subscription for awhile longer but, hey, I personally find the other services, VOOM and DirecTV being watched far more anymore so why should I continue spending money with Dish? Sorry, but it's not that Dish is so bad, they just aren't keeping up with the competition!


----------



## srrobinson2

DonLandis said:


> I'll maintain a token HD subscription for awhile longer but, hey, I personally find the other services, VOOM and DirecTV being watched far more anymore so why should I continue spending money with Dish? Sorry, but it's not that Dish is so bad, they just aren't keeping up with the competition!


I agree with you. The token HD offering that Dish has is not worth the money except during football season  My team will be on CBS for our remaining 3 games, so it's time for me to pull the plug on the HD package.

If they would offer UPN and WB in HD (like VOOM) as part of their superstation package, then that would be something worth considering. I've sent numerous emails to the CSR address without any real response. :nono2:

As for L189, am I correct in assuming that OTA guide information will not be part of that release. As I stated earlier, the only real problems I am having now are the OTA Guide data and the vertical lines. If neither problem is fixed with L189--then what the @#[email protected]#$ is?


----------



## boylehome

DonLandis said:


> My 921 is doing a fine job. No breakdowns or freezeups or timer failures in months.
> I'll maintain a token HD subscription for awhile longer but, hey, I personally find the other services, VOOM and DirecTV being watched far more anymore so why should I continue spending money with Dish?


This explains why you are having fewer problems with your 921. I have fewer problems with mine when I use it less


----------



## lujan

srrobinson2 said:


> I agree with you. The token HD offering that Dish has is not worth the money except during football season  My team will be on CBS for our remaining 3 games, so it's time for me to pull the plug on the HD package.
> 
> If they would offer UPN and WB in HD (like VOOM) as part of their superstation package, then that would be something worth considering. I've sent numerous emails to the CSR address without any real response. :nono2:
> 
> As for L189, am I correct in assuming that OTA guide information will not be part of that release. As I stated earlier, the only real problems I am having now are the OTA Guide data and the vertical lines. If neither problem is fixed with L189--then what the @#[email protected]#$ is?


Is the vertical line problem only with component and composite outputs? I don't seem to have the problem anymore since I switched to DVI output.


----------



## Redster

Mark can correct me if I am wrong but it seems a lot of the 921 problems seem to be with individual setups and/or the location with a small % caused by a malfunctioning 921. I know that doesnt decrease anyone's anxieties but all in all I think the 921 performs very well. I am down to one OTA having no dvr capability but the others record fine. Simply look at the guide on the SD channel then manually create the timer on the HD channel with default padding. I would prefer having OTA guide info but for now its not a show stopper just an inconvenience.


----------



## DonLandis

boylehome said:


> This explains why you are having fewer problems with your 921. I have fewer problems with mine when I use it less


But less for me has been using it less than 8 hrs per day to simply 1-2 hours active and continued background recording of the weekly timers I have set. Generally, I use the HDTIVO for programs that tend to shift around a lot and when I want to scan ahead on the guide for HBO, Showtime, Discovery HD, HDNet it is easier to do it with the 921 because the guiode scanning is much better on the 921. I only set up a season pass NBR recording on some Network shows and HBO movies I wish to archive permanently. e.g. I planned to archive the DNC and RNC, as well as the debates. Rather than recording them to the 921, with very limited capacity, I recorded them to a hard drive in my HDTIVO juke box. But to find a movie some 7 days from now it is easier to just use the 921 for that.
Basically, I have discovered a happy compromise, maximizing the benefits and advantages of both systems. HDTIVO and 921. I maintain that the 921 under the latest software is fairly stable especially when comparing it to how it worked in June and prior. 
While I was away last week, my 921 recorded about 15 hours of programs, all that I had selected flawlessly while in the standby mode. No one used it during the week.

However, bottom line, if I had to give up one it would be the 921. The only way Dish will keep me AEP for year 2005 is to offer more HDTV programming:
Suggestions:
Cinemax HD E & W
Starz HD E & W
TMC HD
Playboy/ Spice HD

I watch these now on VOOM.


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> No planets this time. It really is close, and yes, testing is intense.


I guess things change! Now it is looking like there are two planets now that line up rather closely. One release on the 18th, the next one or two weeks after that. Both seem to be big planets too!

:icon_band

Maybe the fat lady is going to join that band soon and sing for us! :rotfl:


----------



## boylehome

DonLandis said:


> I maintain that the 921 under the latest software is fairly stable especially when comparing it to how it worked in June and prior..


I have to agree with you Don. My does function fairly well most of the time but on occasion it takes a terrible turn for the worse. I suspect the software but it may be a hardware failure. Others post that they have no problems which leads me to believe that my 921 may be a lemon.


----------



## jgerow

rbyers said:


> Then, I guess that I do also.


Me three!

I use it more and more, and it just keeps on tickin'.

Nicest thing I did for it was give it a good, minimal-multipath, OTA signal, as well as good signalsl from the satellites.

I have no problems with daily OTA recordings, daily HDNet recordings, weekly recordings.

Only wish is that the Dishports worked, so I could off-load the hard drive.


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> Just officially announced on the Tech Forum - November 18th for L189


Is this still a solid date?


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I should know later this afternoon if they're going to make the 18th or not.


----------



## ocnier

srrobinson2 said:


> I agree with you. The token HD offering that Dish has is not worth the money except during football season  My team will be on CBS for our remaining 3 games, so it's time for me to pull the plug on the HD package.
> 
> If they would offer UPN and WB in HD (like VOOM) as part of their superstation package, then that would be something worth considering. I've sent numerous emails to the CSR address without any real response. :nono2:
> 
> As for L189, am I correct in assuming that OTA guide information will not be part of that release. As I stated earlier, the only real problems I am having now are the OTA Guide data and the vertical lines. If neither problem is fixed with L189--then what the @#[email protected]#$ is?


I didn't know UPN & WB were on VOOM! Wow! that's awesome!


----------



## tahoerob

ocnier said:


> I didn't know UPN & WB were on VOOM! Wow! that's awesome!


I do not think this is right.
All networks are vis roof antenna NOT on DBS. I checked Voom channel line up today & they are no there.


----------



## FaxMan

I move that when we start seeing the new software downloading that somebody post to this thread since it has been so active an since so many of us probably have notification on it.

Any seconds? (or better ideas?)

=John


----------



## Dustin_Moore

FaxMan said:


> I move that when we start seeing the new software downloading that somebody post to this thread since it has been so active an since so many of us probably have notification on it.
> 
> Any seconds? (or better ideas?)
> 
> =John


I agree, unless Mark can somehow send out an email to everybody who is subscribed to this thread, linking to the L189 release notes.


----------



## BobMurdoch

Don't worry....... If past history is any guide, there will be a half dozen new posts telling you that the update is coming down within 3 minutes of the beginning of the update.


----------



## Cyclone

Bob is right. You won't be able to avoid the "L189 is here" posts.

BTW: None of the broadcast networks are on Voom satellites, they are only available via OTA.


----------



## srrobinson2

Cyclone said:


> Bob is right. You won't be able to avoid the "L189 is here" posts.
> 
> BTW: None of the broadcast networks are on Voom satellites, they are only available via OTA.


 :sure: You are right--I saw the logos for UPN and WB on the Voom site and assumed (I know, I know...)

In any case, WSBK does have an HD broadcast, and it would be great for Dish to re-transmit. I want to see Enterprise in High Def!!!


----------



## kstevens

Mark Lamutt said:


> I should know later this afternoon if they're going to make the 18th or not.


What's the word Mark?

Ken


----------



## Eagles

kstevens said:


> What's the word Mark?
> 
> Ken


I would think no news is "NOT" good news!


----------



## tahoerob

srrobinson2 said:


> ............
> In any case, WSBK does have an HD broadcast, and it would be great for Dish to re-transmit. I want to see Enterprise in High Def!!!


I agree that they should be able to do HD superstations (usually WB or UPN affiliates). Hopefully they will commit to more space soon.

I am actually going to ADD cable to my house again for Starz HD, InHD1, InHD2, & local NBC HD (cannot get OTA for some reason) as well as for 4Mbps modem.


----------



## Jim_R

srrobinson2 said:


> : I want to see Enterprise in High Def!!!


I do get Enterprise in HD via the local UPN affiliate, and am disappointed. The DD 5.0 is nice, but they still broadcast a cropped 4:3 signal, rather than full 16:9. Yes, you can use the 921's zoom feature to fill the screen, but it's not comparable to the difference in picture quality you would see going from Fox's NTSC vrs HD NFL broadcasts.


----------



## jsanders

Jim_R said:


> I do get Enterprise in HD via the local UPN affiliate, and am disappointed. The DD 5.0 is nice, but they still broadcast a cropped 4:3 signal, rather than full 16:9. Yes, you can use the 921's zoom feature to fill the screen, but it's not comparable to the difference in picture quality you would see going from Fox's NTSC vrs HD NFL broadcasts.


huh? Maybe there is a problem with your local UPN affiliate. KBHK, in my area, broadcasts Enterprise in HD, a full 16x9 signal that isn't cropped to fit in a 4x3 aspect ratio. The picture fills the whole screen! I'm very happy about that. The picture looks "soft" somehow compared to other shows (Jay Leno really stands out), but the shots of the ships in space are great! I really enjoy watching it!

Oh, there is one caviat though. It only broadcasts in HD on Friday night. The encore presentation of enterprise is NOT in HD. It is this cropped 4x3 signal. Make sure you have tried to watch both presentations to make sure you don't have the same problem....


----------



## Cyclone

Sounds like his UPN affiliate is broadcasting digitally, but not HDTV.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

(Steeling myself for the backlash and the wrath of the users...) 

I don't think we're going to see it tomorrow. And, unlike what happened with L188, L186 and L148 it's not a case of just being able to pull the section of offending code out and releasing the rest of the fixes. 

I'd say more, but the reasons don't really make much difference. So, once again, hang in there (yeah - lame I'm well aware...)


----------



## mwgiii

DOH!

That is what I was afraid of.

*stomps out of the room pouting*


----------



## scpanel

Well, there goes Thanksgiving, for more than one reason!


----------



## Eagles

Mark Lamutt said:


> (Steeling myself for the backlash and the wrath of the users...)
> 
> I don't think we're going to see it tomorrow. And, unlike what happened with L188, L186 and L148 it's not a case of just being able to pull the section of offending code out and releasing the rest of the fixes.
> 
> I'd say more, but the reasons don't really make much difference. So, once again, hang in there (yeah - lame I'm well aware...)


I really give up!! In order to avoid future disappointments, I will no longer monitor or post in this thread. I'll just keep an eye out for the release notes highlighted in yellow at the top of the home page when they get posted. 
I guess relatively speaking, if I consider the lack of an upgrade for my twin tuner HD receiver disappointing I'm pretty lucky overall. OH WELL


----------



## Jim_R

Mark Lamutt said:


> (Steeling myself for the backlash and the wrath of the users...)
> 
> I don't think we're going to see it tomorrow. And, unlike what happened with L188, L186 and L148 it's not a case of just being able to pull the section of offending code out and releasing the rest of the fixes.
> 
> I'd say more, but the reasons don't really make much difference. So, once again, hang in there (yeah - lame I'm well aware...)


Please say more! At least we could dwell on the reasons until the next announced release date.


----------



## jsanders

Mark Lamutt said:


> (Steeling myself for the backlash and the wrath of the users...)


Your avatar suggests you have nine lives Mark. Seems like you have used a few of them up already. :blauesaug You should be able to land on your feet though.:stickman:

No need to shoot the messenger I say, even if the message is a bit hard to swallow. :barf:

Is this gonna push back the OTA guide data release too?


----------



## Jerry G

I think there's a real bright side to not getting 189 tomorrow. We won't be disappointed by what wasn't fixed and we won't be angry at what was broken by the new software. We'll just have to wait a bit longer to face these miseries.


----------



## mfrodsha

As it happens, all Dish "firm" dates mean plus or minus 2-3 weeks (although almost always minus). This is so incredibly, unbelievably frustrating.

Tired of the excuses, but not sure what to do about it at any rate. Just keep going on accepting every trivial excuse why the product isn't fully functional, and the software programmers just can't seem to get that last one little glitch taken care of. I'm suspicious it's quite a bit more than the one last little glitch implied by each excuse we get for delay.

Honestly.


----------



## boylehome

Why not? What is the problem now?


----------



## Scott Greczkowski

From what I am hearing it may be 2 or 3 week delay. 

Anyone still think we will get OTA guide data in December?

The stuff they say on the Charlie Chats and Technical chats should really be admissable evidence in court. I really wish they they wouldn't give exact dates on the chats, as they only end up disapointing their customers.


----------



## jsanders

Scott Greczkowski said:


> From what I am hearing it may be 2 or 3 week delay.
> 
> Anyone still think we will get OTA guide data in December?
> 
> The stuff they say on the Charlie Chats and Technical chats should really be admissable evidence in court. I really wish they they wouldn't give exact dates on the chats, as they only end up disapointing their customers.


Two to three weeks? Let me guess, that is so they can take next week off? Someone needs to show some accountability here. :flaiming


----------



## bytre

Mark Lamutt said:


> (Steeling myself for the backlash and the wrath of the users...)
> 
> I don't think we're going to see it tomorrow.


Its not your fault (is it?), and I'd much rather wait for the defect fixes to be properly tested than rushed to make an arbitrary deadline.


----------



## bytre

Scott Greczkowski said:


> The stuff they say on the Charlie Chats and Technical chats should really be admissable evidence in court. I really wish they they wouldn't give exact dates on the chats, as they only end up disapointing their customers.


Its only a matter of time before software companies start being sued en masse for advertising or reporting features which don't end up working.


----------



## Mark Lamutt

I very much agree with Scott on this one - exact dates are a bad thing...which is why I very rarely say anything other than "soon" or "very soon" about software releases, even if I know a target date.

It doesn't make any difference, but this particular time (not every other time, just this one) the delay isn't being caused by or a result of Dish or Eldon. 

(If any of you know anything about the Theatertek DVD software, we're going through a very similar situation with that right now, waiting for an update. The software is ready, but can't be sent because Theatertek has to wait for a new DVD codec version from Nvidia before it can ship.)


----------



## dishbacker

So, their waiting for a fix from the hardware vendor.... and Dish / Eldon can't just easily pull out the coding changes that the fix will fix?

I'm fixin to go fix me a drink... :goodjob:


----------



## SimpleSimon

jsanders said:


> Two to three weeks? Let me guess, that is so they can take next week off? Someone needs to show some accountability here. :flaiming


Just as long as it's NOT one week (Thanksgiving).


----------



## kstevens

mfrodsha said:


> As it happens, all Dish "firm" dates mean plus or minus 2-3 weeks (although almost always minus). This is so incredibly, unbelievably frustrating.
> 
> Tired of the excuses, but not sure what to do about it at any rate. Just keep going on accepting every trivial excuse why the product isn't fully functional, and the software programmers just can't seem to get that last one little glitch taken care of. I'm suspicious it's quite a bit more than the one last little glitch implied by each excuse we get for delay.
> 
> Honestly.


If they actually find a serious bug in the software, I prefer that they wait until it is fixed. The problem is, they don't find these serious bugs on their own enough...

Ken


----------



## ocnier

So Mark, can you say which piece of hardware is being the sticky widget? I looked at the pics on extremetech site and I was just curious. :scratchin


----------



## Mark Lamutt

It's one of the drivers.


----------



## mfrodsha

kstevens said:


> If they actually find a serious bug in the software, I prefer that they wait until it is fixed. The problem is, they don't find these serious bugs on their own enough...
> 
> Ken


I agree that I don't want software with a serious bug. To me, however, this is a little beside the point of how they seem to get there in the first place each time something is due for release. Dish is starting to make windows 98 look like an efficiently run software development project.

I have some experience with software development, and at the pace we seem to be going with this nonsense, I have this vision in my mind of a team of about 2-3 software guys working 9-5, trying to meet whatever deadline imposed on them by some overseas company. Just when they're about to release the program, they figure out there is a bug.

With the potential importance this receiver represents to Dish, I would expect that they would have a serious team of approximately 30 software engineers working 10-12 hour days. Maybe that's the case, but I refuse to believe that the software guys are this inept. It just seems to me to be frustrating software management that keeps hopping upon - - - woops! another surprise! Or, --- woops! we didn't get this or that driver from the vendor in time for release! Woops! In other words, it doesn't sound like Dish does a very good job of handling contingencies.

Okay - yes, I want a stable OS and I want all the features promised for the price - like all of you. I am just blind-sided by the lack of progress on getting from point A to point B - and always there's plenty of blame to go around.

Just makes one wonder in frustration.


----------



## scpanel

Maybe if they get this fixed quickly they will do an out of cycle release/spool to get the software out to us before Thanksgiving. It may be a happy one after all!


----------



## Jim_R

Mark Lamutt said:


> It's one of the drivers.


Thanks Mark! Not to detract from the disappointment and frustration that the other owner / testers are voicing, but for me this at least provides a sense of light at the end of the tunnel. The optimist in me is thinking, it'll soon be here.


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## lujan

mfrodsha said:


> I agree that I don't want software with a serious bug. To me, however, this is a little beside the point of how they seem to get there in the first place each time something is due for release. Dish is starting to make windows 98 look like an efficiently run software development project.
> 
> I have some experience with software development, and at the pace we seem to be going with this nonsense, I have this vision in my mind of a team of about 2-3 software guys working 9-5, trying to meet whatever deadline imposed on them by some overseas company. Just when they're about to release the program, they figure out there is a bug.
> 
> With the potential importance this receiver represents to Dish, I would expect that they would have a serious team of approximately 30 software engineers working 10-12 hour days. Maybe that's the case, but I refuse to believe that the software guys are this inept. It just seems to me to be frustrating software management that keeps hopping upon - - - woops! another surprise! Or, --- woops! we didn't get this or that driver from the vendor in time for release! Woops! In other words, it doesn't sound like Dish does a very good job of handling contingencies.
> 
> Okay - yes, I want a stable OS and I want all the features promised for the price - like all of you. I am just blind-sided by the lack of progress on getting from point A to point B - and always there's plenty of blame to go around.
> 
> Just makes one wonder in frustration.


AMEN!!!!!


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## srrobinson2

Mark Lamutt said:


> It's one of the drivers.


Does it have anything to do with fixing the blue/red/green line problem? If so, then I will patiently wait. Otherwise, I'll continue to be angry about the no OTA Guide Data delivery.


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## DonLandis

With all the blind faith that the 921 will deliver OTA guide data that is accurate, I suspect there will be a great deal of frustration when it arrives and is working "state of the art" What people need to realize is that the OTA guide data is not at all accurate. And this is the case with the holy grail of DVR's, the HDTIVO. The biggest problem as I see it is that the guide data is sourced from thousands of origins throughout the country. WRT HDTV those sources also do not place a high priority on accuracy due to a perception that "nobody is watching anyway"

In our area, I have reduced the OTA guides for HDTV accuracy to a few suspect stations that make a practice of having problems. Those would be: Our PBS station that holds the record for being 100% totally wrong 100% of the time. NBC/ABC douopoly offers about a 15% failure rate in off prime time and fails at about 5% during prime time. 
The accuracy for analog guide channels is very accurate so that is not the problem but we're about HDTV and digital recording so that leaves out the use for analog channels.

Based on what I have observed so far in the HDTIVO OTA guide experience, I would say that if you are unlucky to have stations that do not publish accurate guide info for their digital channels you may experience a whole host of problems like what appears to be recording tghe wrong program including incorrect graphics. My favorite one is recording the McNeil Leher News show on the HDTIVO only to discover it is just cartoons Of course if I tune to that cartoon program and try to record it, I may get some show like This old House or maybe even one of my own shows I produced for the local PBS station. And, if that isn't bad enough, on a station where your accuracy is 95%, you record an hour program and find it comes on 30 minutes late or ends 30 minutes short.

So before we build a whole new group of bug reports in this section, Mark, You need to begin to consider how to filter those complaints that are real 921 issues for OTA guide data, and those which are solely the responsibility of the station's internal inaccuracy. 

Of course I have an advantage here in that I tune to one of my other services and when I see that both Voom and TIVO are off by the same error, I know that error sourced from the station.


Again the greatest difference is that the guide info from the Satellite providers is accurate due to the small and controllable sources in play while the OTA, the sources are huge and there is no regulation that these guides be accurate. The only regulated guide info is what the FCC calls program logs and those are done after the fact.


OTA guide and then NBR for OTA will be a circus! Some will be at the circus and others will be lucky and have absolutely no problems.


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## KAØCSL

Remember were dealing with high tech top secret hex. THESE ARE THE NORAD LAUNCH CODES AND THEREFORE MUST BE PERFECT! THEY WONT EVER BE! THATS WHY THERES REV'S. YOU GUYS ACT LIKE WERE DEALING WITH A COMMON TV BOX OR SOMETHING! I know its that prize they shafted me on! The mad scramble to fix the glitch! Plus remember the guy with the wrong answer won and the VP that claimed him the winner said the 18th! :lol: So go figure! The lights are on at dish but no one's home in the VP area! 

Sorry Guys I feel like ya all We have been DISHED around once more! 

73's
KAØCSL

Give me L189 or give me my prize! :nono2:


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## jsanders

DonLandis said:


> Of course I have an advantage here in that I tune to one of my other services and when I see that both Voom and TIVO are off by the same error, I know that error sourced from the station.


Have you ever seen the Voom EPG and the HDTivo EPG show different results?

You sort of need both of those conditions to happen to reach that conclusion. If they occasionally show the same error, but sometimes they are different, then I would think the station would be the source of the problem. However, if they are *always* the same, then it only says that they get the EPG from the same service. They may well be buying a guide from a source that collects the data from all of the stations (TVGuide, TitanTV, etc..). That could also be a source of error, as an example, maybe they mixed up the analog guide with the digital or something. Anyway, if the V* and D* guides occasionaly show differences, then the probability goes up that the consolidated data came from different sources (either data collectors or directly from the stations), hence, showing the station to be the problem in the scenario you mentioned.


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## FaxMan

DonLandis said:


> =snip
> 
> Again the greatest difference is that the guide info from the Satellite providers is accurate due to the small and controllable sources in play while the OTA, the sources are huge and there is no regulation that these guides be accurate. The only regulated guide info is what the FCC calls program logs and those are done after the fact.
> 
> OTA guide and then NBR for OTA will be a circus! Some will be at the circus and others will be lucky and have absolutely no problems.


Don,

Are you saying that timer based recording may be better than name based recording for OTA? Hmmm... I guess it would be nice to have an option to choose either way.

-John


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## garyhesq

We should have a remap option available in the guide that allows a Dish local station guide data to be used at a specific OTA station. If we could tell it to use the guide data for say channel 8132 and remap the guide data for that channel to channel 011-01 (the local OTA digital mirror for that station) that would eliminate most of these problems. I'm no software expert so maybe that is not possible.


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## DonLandis

FaxMan- Both will create unique problems if you base your decision to record on the guide info present.

This may answer your question too Jsanders:
In the case of our PBS affiliate, there is no condition where you can set a timer to record on the basis of either NBR or I/O times manually, why? because in all cases what is listed is not what will play in the future. Additionally, if you see a program come on like "This Old House" the guide may state: City Council Meeting but the show is actually "This Old House". Then you find the City council meeting on another sub channel or not at all. Finally, the recording headder still shows "City Council Meeting" while the actual Program is "This Old House" In other words, the channels content in no way match what the guide data says for that station. I know the station Engineer but he has been extremely busy to bother and I don't want to boither him as he is getting their DD5.1 up and working. When the opportunity is right, I will inquire of him to see what is going on but my guess is the person that actually publishes the data for the services is simply going by the analog channel info and actual times for the other subs. (They do all 4 subs in multicasting except when HDTV is sent out, then it is reduced to two subs. ) Then the people in the time shift studio ( a room full of VCR's and digital video servers that record off the bird programming from the network and reschedule it for local airing at local desired times. In many cases what airs on the analog is simulcast with the digital channels. In the case of our PBS station, the digital subs rarely match the analog channel. Plus, I suspect that the master control for the 4 subs has little regard for the predicted 2 week schedule that was done a while back. 

Voom and Tivo same or different for the guide? Mostly I saw they were the same and wrong. Sorry, I'm sure I read it somewhere but I don't recall and what I read may not be accurate as to whether the two use the same source for the guide info. I don't think your logic is valid that if same and wrong it is the guides service that was in error. If same and wrong, it may mean that the station fed all services ofr that same service wrong info.


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## nuts4scuba

I went out to my PBS's website to see what they were going to have on and when I went to their HD station it wasn't the same. So even my station's website was wrong.

My CBS had a basketball special on their analog channel instead of NCIS on Tuesday, but still showed NCIS on the HD channel. TitanTV showed that the HD channel was going to have the basketball special. So I think that there are going to discrepancies at times.


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## n0qcu

Mark,
Will 189 fix the 'view' button so that it do like on the dish dvr and kick you to live mode no matter what your watching?


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## boylehome

What a bunch of light weights. This should have been fixed and working months ago. Dish Network 7, customers 0.


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## jsanders

DonLandis said:


> Voom and Tivo same or different for the guide? Mostly I saw they were the same and wrong. Sorry, I'm sure I read it somewhere but I don't recall and what I read may not be accurate as to whether the two use the same source for the guide info. I don't think your logic is valid that if same and wrong it is the guides service that was in error. If same and wrong, it may mean that the station fed all services ofr that same service wrong info.


From your explanation of your PBS broadcast, is it possible that they are just running a loop in a very loose way? They have a bunch of tapes, and they just play one cuz it has been a while since it was broadcast? It almost sounds like they don't have a schedule for stuff... Maybe I am wrong. If you record "City Council Meeting", say, on a weekly basis, do you consistenly get "This old house"?

As far as what I said about guide info, I agree with you, maybe I didn't quite put i right. If they are always the same, and have some common errors, the error could come from the guide service provider, or the station. If they are different sometimes, and then they have some common errors sometimes, it points to a likelihood that the error came from the station. The idea is that if they are different occasionally, then the data came from different guide providers, and/or the data was compiled by V* or D*. If, under these circumstances, they *STILL* showed the same mistake, it either meant that the same mistake was made twice, or the mistake was made once at the station and was propagated (in the case where they are sometimes different). I was just trying to say that making the exact same mistake in two companies seems less probable than making the mistake once at the station. You're the statistics person, you know better than me on that subject! I am just looking for a way to isolate it to the station and eliminate the guide service provider from the equation, that's all. And that is why I asked the question.


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## Scooters

Mark: 

If the 189 release is delayed errrrr... a couple of weeks, is there and chance that it will be combined with the EPG release???? As I recall, it was due out early in December.

No flames please.. It sounded like the two upgrades were being done by different teams. If the EPG is not tied to the 189, it could happen. Both planets could be suddenly aligned.


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## xsailor

Amen brother


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## jsanders

Scooters said:


> Mark:
> 
> If the 189 release is delayed errrrr... a couple of weeks, is there and chance that it will be combined with the EPG release???? As I recall, it was due out early in December.
> 
> No flames please.. It sounded like the two upgrades were being done by different teams. If the EPG is not tied to the 189, it could happen. Both planets could be suddenly aligned.


I've been wondering the same exact thing. It seems that if the Dish L189 people are done, that it would be a good time for the two teams to merge their two code bases while they wait for that driver.


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## Mark Lamutt

srrobinson2 said:


> Does it have anything to do with fixing the blue/red/green line problem? If so, then I will patiently wait. Otherwise, I'll continue to be angry about the no OTA Guide Data delivery.


It has everything do do with fixing this problem.


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## Mark Lamutt

Closing thread. Please see the new one entitled "When Will L210 Spool?"...


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