# when is mpeg4 supposed to start?



## Kali05 (May 20, 2005)

does anyone know when their start using mpeg4 thing?


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Dish has not made an official announcement yet. The rumor is late 4th quarter this year or 1st quarter of next year.


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer (Feb 20, 2005)

We may know some details within 2 weeks at the next Retailer Chat. But since the Charlie Chat is in December or so, we may see the channels around then.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Will they still keep some channels in Mpeg-2, when Mpeg-4 arrives?

Or ALL channels will be switched to Mpeg-4?


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

It's just the HD channels at first. They are supposed to add the rest of the VOOM originals when MPEG-4 comes on line. 

This is Deja Vu all over again. Those who had a 6000 may remember when they switched for QPSK to 8PSK modulation on the HD channels. Adding MPEG-4 to 8PSK = more channels in HD per transponder.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Darkman said:


> Will they still keep some channels in Mpeg-2, when Mpeg-4 arrives?
> 
> Or ALL channels will be switched to Mpeg-4?


Everything will eventually transition but nothing will be cut off until people have the time to replace the hardware needed to receive MPEG-4.

MPEG-4 seems to be on a sliding schedule. A lot of talk about it last January as if we would be seeing it released now ... but as the year passed we keep hearing later dates. The latest later date mentioned is early 2006.

And before it is asked, nothing has been said about how the equipment will be replaced - so don't assume that E* will require people to buy all new equipment or assume that there will be a free trade out program - it is all speculation! Wait and see.

JL


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

OK...But .. what i was asking basically was...

Will NON HD channels - AT 180, Latino(s) , ethnics, PPVs, pr0n, etc - wll those remain in Mpeg-2 format.. or those will be switched to Mpeg-4 as well?

[EDIT] ... i guess after reading JL's post above - i guess eventually all channels will be in Mpeg-4 (including those listed abobe) .. correct?


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Darkman said:


> OK...But .. what i was asking basically was...
> 
> Will NON HD channels - AT 180, Latino(s) , ethnics, PPVs, pr0n, etc - wll those remain in Mpeg-2 format.. or those will be switched to Mpeg-4 as well?
> 
> [EDIT] ... i guess after reading JL's post above - i guess eventually all channels will be in Mpeg-4 (including those listed abobe) .. correct?


I think, over time, all channels will migrate to MPEG4. This means changing all existing receivers. I believe both satellite providers are committed to a system using MPEG4. Bandwidth is precious and the move is necessary to stay competitive with cable and, (soon) telcos.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Expect everything to turn to MPEG-4 ... don't expect everything to be MPEG-4 in January.
I'm guessing "by 2008"?

JL


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

James Long said:


> Expect everything to turn to MPEG-4 ... don't expect everything to be MPEG-4 in January.
> I'm guessing "by 2008"?
> 
> JL


I'm not sure Dish and Direct can exchange 60 million+ receivers (existing customers only), in less than 3 years.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm not worried about DirecTV ... their conversion doesn't change the speed that E* can work. With E* doing their own design and manufacturing they have some independence to work with. Perhaps 2008 is optimistic - by the end of 2010 is more realistic. They cannot convert existing channels to MPEG-4 and turn off the old MPEG-2 until the receivers are swapped out. Until the swap is done all they can do is add new channels in MPEG-4 and convert those who want the new content.

There will probably be some channels that stay on MPEG-2 beyond the point when all AT60 and above E* customers have MPEG-4. Channels where the upgrade cost is higher than the bandwidth cost to leave it at MPEG-2.

JL


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## Michael P (Oct 27, 2004)

If the MPEG-4 conversion was that close, and was to include all programming, then why did E* just go through a massive card-swap for older receivers? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just swap the old "legacy" IRD's out rather than just the Nagravision cards?

No, a full MPEG-4 deployment is a long way off. With the impending shut-off of analog OTA broadcsting, that might speed things up. The thought is that HDTV adoption will take-off at the same time, and with it a voluntary upgrade to the next generation HD IRD which would be MPEG-4.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Always consider deployment to be two to three years behind development. There were valid reasons to continue with the card swap and it is still going to be years until they can turn off MPEG-2 on all the AT channels and others they want to move to MPEG-4. Just consider the move to MPEG-4 to be the next card swap. 

JL


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

Michael P said:


> If the MPEG-4 conversion was that close, and was to include all programming, then why did E* just go through a massive card-swap for older receivers? Wouldn't it have made more sense to just swap the old "legacy" IRD's out rather than just the Nagravision cards?
> 
> No, a full MPEG-4 deployment is a long way off. With the impending shut-off of analog OTA broadcsting, that might speed things up. The thought is that HDTV adoption will take-off at the same time, and with it a voluntary upgrade to the next generation HD IRD which would be MPEG-4.


It's only relevent if the conversion to HD by the program providers and demand by consumers speed things up. Digital is already done by both D and E. Market pressure is the only thing that will affect change for the sat providers in how they present their programming.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

I just wanna know what the hell happened to MPEG3.


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

garypen said:


> I just wanna know what the hell happened to MPEG3.


Still birth.....

Ken


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

garypen said:


> I just wanna know what the hell happened to MPEG3.


It works great for audio ... well not always great. It depends on what compression is used within the MP3 files.

The motion picture experts group has standards for more than just live video services.

JL


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

MP3 is not MPEG3, it is MPEG1, audio layer 3.

I'm also inclined to think the MPEG4 switchover is farther out that we thought when it was first announced. New HD channels were supposed to be MPEG4 but Voom was added as MPEG2 and more are in testing. If it were imminent it would have been at least mentioned on the last Tech Forum.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BobaBird said:


> MP3 is not MPEG3, it is MPEG1, audio layer 3.


It is also the Moving Picture Experts Group - guess I'm not awake yet.  I wonder if they skipped MPEG3 to avoid conflict with MPEG-L3? There are a lot of sites out there calling MP3's "MPEG3".


BobaBird said:


> I'm also inclined to think the MPEG4 switchover is farther out that we thought when it was first announced.


That goes without saying as we are already past the time expected when we first heard of MPEG4. Voom in MPEG2 didn't surprise me. It was more of an effort to keep Voom alive to have a product to sell when MPEG4 arrives. Allowing the Voom channels to die completely would have killed the momentum that the service had. The location on 61.5 didn't do E* any harm and as they charge for the additional dish and hardware and require the core HD service before adding they probably didn't lose money on the deal.

Voom on 129 is interesting and perhaps a clue that MPEG4 isn't 'soon' but I see it as more of an attempt to help the "extra locals" move from 61.5 to 129 than the side effect of expanding Voom to the left coast. E* does need to put the CBS-HDs and HD Test channel there to complete the move.

JL


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## jsuboh (Jun 7, 2005)

Would it be safe to assume that the new Mpeg4 Receivers will be Mpeg2 Compatible?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yes.

JL


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## BillJ (May 5, 2005)

Seems like all the concern about when MPEG4 debuts is putting the cart before the horse. First we need to see MPEG4 receivers and DVRs. Have any retailers had a look at them yet? I've read comments about the 962 but is that fact or rumor?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

BillJ said:


> Seems like all the concern about when MPEG4 debuts is putting the cart before the horse. First we need to see MPEG4 receivers and DVRs. Have any retailers had a look at them yet? I've read comments about the 962 but is that fact or rumor?


 Well, without knowing what comments you've heard, there's no way to confirm or deny them.

But if you're asking if there actually is such a thing as a 962, then the answer is yes.

The only version I can NOT confirm is the 422, which will be a necessary box to replace the 322 without great pain.

If E* is smart, the back panels on these boxes will match the older boxes so that it'll just be a plug-for-plug swap. Otherwise, they're going to have to hire CSRs that can actually spell "Dish".


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

You know... it just occurred to me... every time I see a new "when will MPEG4" thread, it reminds me of the kid in the backseat of the car on a road trip...

"Are we there yet?"

No.

"Are we there yet?"

No.

etc.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

HDMe said:


> You know... it just occurred to me... every time I see a new "when will MPEG4" thread, it reminds me of the kid in the backseat of the car on a road trip...
> 
> "Are we there yet?"
> 
> ...


 Careful - you'll get slammed for "negative posting".


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## EricD (Aug 31, 2005)

BillJ said:


> Seems like all the concern about when MPEG4 debuts is putting the cart before the horse. First we need to see MPEG4 receivers and DVRs. Have any retailers had a look at them yet? I've read comments about the 962 but is that fact or rumor?


If I'm not mistaken, MPEG4 is "simply" a different compression algorithm that on one side compresses files smaller than MPEG2, but on the flip side requires more computing power to decompress in real time.

I wouldn't be surprised if E* already put more powerful processors in its recent high-end units so they could upgrade those units with software only. That's what I would have done and those engineers at E* are smarter that me.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

EricD said:


> That's what I would have done and those engineers at E* are smarter that me.


Computations on that level are normally done in dedicated chipsets. Solid state still works better than software, even after 40 plus years of development.

JL


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

SimpleSimon said:


> Careful - you'll get slammed for "negative posting".


I wasn't insulting anyone... Just noticing a coincidence between the kid in the car who wants updates every 5 seconds when nothing has changed and the folks who want to know about MPEG4 when there isn't anything new to know.

Just an interesting psychological observation


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Are we there yet? :lol:

JL


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

James Long said:


> And before it is asked, nothing has been said about how the equipment will be replaced - so don't assume that E* will require people to buy all new equipment or assume that there will be a free trade out program - it is all speculation! Wait and see.


No, it's not all speculation. It's history. We have a very high likelihood, way beyond speculation, that...

1. New equipment will be required.

2. It won't be available for lease to existing subscribers (see the 942), but they can outright purchase it.

3. No upgrade path is available. (See #2.)

For you to caveat otherwise is just plain disingenuous. If you can't learn from history, you can't learn from anything.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TechnoCat said:


> No, it's not all speculation. It's history. We have a very high likelihood, way beyond speculation, that...
> 
> 1. New equipment will be required.
> 2. It won't be available for lease to existing subscribers (see the 942), but they can outright purchase it.
> 3. No upgrade path is available. (See #2.)


When you are dead wrong will you still be here to correct? It's obvious that new equipment will be needed since not one current receiver can handle MPEG4 - but it is only paranoia that suggests that E* won't do something special to get those new receivers into customers hands.

Past performance is not indicative of future results. 

JL


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## auburn2 (Sep 8, 2005)

I know MPEG 4 will save bandwidth over MPEG 2 ... but not if they are supporting both formats at once.

My guess is they will cut the bandwidth on MPEG 2 broadcasts as they add MPEG 4 to give customers a little extra incentive to upgrade to an MPEG 4 receiver and complete the conversion earlier.

Am I missing something here?


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

auburn2 said:


> I know MPEG 4 will save bandwidth over MPEG 2 ... but not if they are supporting both formats at once.
> 
> My guess is they will cut the bandwidth on MPEG 2 broadcasts as they add MPEG 4 to give customers a little extra incentive to upgrade to an MPEG 4 receiver and complete the conversion earlier.
> 
> Am I missing something here?


Dish currently provides HD channels on dedicated transponders (TPs), i.e., only HD channels are on a TP with other HD channels. This is because although Dish uses MPEG-2 for both HD and SD, they use QPSK encoding for SD and 8PSK for HD. I have to believe that when MPEG-4 is introduced, it will be segregated on separate TPs similar to what is done with HD and 8PSK currently.


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

James Long said:


> When you are dead wrong will you still be here to correct? It's obvious that new equipment will be needed since not one current receiver can handle MPEG4 - but it is only paranoia that suggests that E* won't do something special to get those new receivers into customers hands.


Don't drown yourself in kool aid! Dish did _nothing_ to get the 942 in our hands. Only _new_ subscribers (to Dish, not just to HDTV) got deals. Given the multi-year roll-out of MPEG-4 (per Dish themselves), I doubt Dish will see any need to cut us deals.

Learning from history is not paranoia. But there is a word for trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result eventually. 


James Long said:


> Past performance is not indicative of future results.


Why do you believe this? Do you have a recent (last four months) source?

Your original post was hopeful, but you didn't provide any reason to believe it. When I pointed out contrary evidence (hardware, history), rather than rebut it you cast me wrong and paranoid - perhaps not the most thought-provoking of responses. History, Charlie's consistency and some communications I have had with Dish all fail to support your perspective. Do you have any evidence, or just a generalized optimistic world view?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

TechnoCat said:


> Do you have a recent (last four months) source?


Do you? Nope. You are speculating --- Why do you believe that speculating negative is OK and you want to shut me down? How about making your fifth post on this forum a statement from Dish backing you up?

Sorry for the harsh reply but we cannot assume negative or positive on this issue - the point of my prior post. If you have evidence, present it. Otherwise just accept the fact that you are making assumptions. OK 

JL


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

You are mischaracterizing my messages. I haven't made any attempt to "shut you down", nor did _I_ claim anyone was paranoid. All I'm trying to do is point out that history and consistency are likely more accurate barometers of the future than, as you put it, speculation and assumptions.

I have pointed out evidence... the past. I also have recent communications with Dish where they refused to even agree with Charlie's statements from January. That's very fast back-pedalling on their part. These are more than just tea leaves in an empty mug. I asked what evidence you have because you seem to place blind speculation at the same faith-level as such evidence; I'm trying to understand why.

It doesn't really matter - my source indicates the MPEG-4 roll-out isn't as near as previously thought. But I am intrigued by your approach that would seem to require absolute proof, with a blood signature, to tip trade-ins into the longshot category. Not all speculation is created equal. (Not that you have to agree with my handicapping - if we all agreed, such conversations would be quite boring.  )


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

James Long said:


> And before it is asked, nothing has been said about how the equipment will be replaced - so don't assume that E* will require people to buy all new equipment or assume that there will be a free trade out program - it is all speculation! Wait and see.


You chose to assume the former -


TechnoCat said:


> No, it's not all speculation. It's history. We have a very high likelihood, way beyond speculation, that...
> 
> 1. New equipment will be required.
> 2. It won't be available for lease to existing subscribers (see the 942), but they can outright purchase it.
> 3. No upgrade path is available. (See #2.)


I was hoping for some proof that your speculation wasn't.


TechnoCat said:


> my source indicates the MPEG-4 roll-out isn't as near as previously thought





James Long said:


> A lot of talk about it last January as if we would be seeing it released now ... but as the year passed we keep hearing later dates. The latest later date mentioned is early 2006.


We're already past the expected date, so on that part you cannot be wrong! 

Besides, you quoted a paragraph on receiver swap policy - not on release dates. Which argument did you want?

JL


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

James Long said:


> You chose to assume the former -I'm asking for some proof that your speculation isn't.We're already past the expected date, so on that part you cannot be wrong!


I understood my communications in the last week to indicate that January is perhaps at risk, and that when it does happen, it will be a slow process. That latter bit surprised me; my guess would have matched that of several members here that they would try to expedite it, to free up the bandwidth.

However, I am interpreting words that were intentionally circumspect. They do seem to make perfect sense in the context of history though.

What I don't have any insight into is _why_ January is at risk and they should move slow. It seems to me that the DBS advantage is trumped by cable's HDTV (and internet broadband, soon telephony) selection for the high-end user. I would have expected them to be very aggressive about onboarding HD content and getting it to us, whether by new codecs or by leasing extra bird space. Perhaps it's a technical hurdle, perhaps a financial one, but either way there's some big part of the picture that I'm just not grasping.

On swap policy vs release dates, I expect them to delay release further, but I don't care . I expect them to not provide a trade-in, based on history and communications, and I care a bit. But the latter (trade-in) is what I thought we were debating speculation about. Apologies if I mangled quotations.


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## M Sparks (Sep 28, 2005)

TechnoCat said:


> Dish did _nothing_ to get the 942 in our hands. Only _new_ subscribers (to Dish, not just to HDTV) got deals. Given the multi-year roll-out of MPEG-4 (per Dish themselves), I doubt Dish will see any need to cut us deals.


Your analogy is invalid, and I've seen it many times before. Just because the 921 was a bad receiver doesn't mean you are entitled to a free upgrade. Did Ford give Pinto owners free Escorts?

The MPEG-4 switchout is unlike any previous situation. It is in their interest to move it along. It's bad for them to just flip it instantly, but it's also bad to let it drag on for more than 2 or 3 years. And EVENTUALLY, they will have to give anyone that still has an MPEG-2 receiver a new one. Does that mean everyone gets a new, top of the line machine. Obviously not. I've heard some talk that the 411 will become the new base receiver. Notice one of the features is that it "outputs HD and SD simultaniously."

There will be activity at both ends of the spectrum. HD-LIL markets will get new machines quicker and cheaper, so the SD-LILs can be shut off quicker. But new national HD content will push other people to pay full price.

Creating an incentive to upgrade means less out-of-pocket cost for DISH later. Why give someone something for free in a few years when you can get $100 now? And DirecTV is banking on the HMC because customers with expensive, high quality equipment are less likely to churn. By the same token, DISH should be trying to get the 962 to as many people as possible.

Perhaps Dish has made it hard for loyal customers to get a 942 because they know they have to upgrade them later. (A real conspiracy theorist might even think the current software bugs are a way to scare people off until the 962 is ready.)

I think the second part of your statement is basically right. The day MPEG-4 gets turned on will not be the day to find a deal. But they will come eventually.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The only thing we really know... is that we don't really know anything 

But past history and some business logic suggests a few popular rumors:

1. Dish may begin adding new channels, HD for instance, that are only available in MPEG4. They would then offer paid/discounted upgrade paths to the "early adopters" who are often willing to pay to get the latest hardware.

This serves the purpose of "forcing" some of us to upgrade, but not alienating most customers... provides a revenue stream for Dish to get some additional moolah to fund their upgrade efforts... and provides a larger testing bed of folks who might uncover early problems.

2. When #1 has been live for a while (months, perhaps a year), Dish will start converting existing channels to MPEG4. Either multicasting (sending both MPEG4 and MPEG2 to not cutoff old customers) OR converting a particular niche, like HD for instance, all to MPEG4 and again providing a upgrade path at some cost, but this time the cost will be a bit better as they want to entice more of us to upgrade.

3. Depending on how #1 and #2 progress... Dish will have to make a decision before they can convert everything over to MPEG4 and stop all MPEG2 use. Either they have a small customer base on the old equipment and they are ok with risk of alienating them by forcing a paid upgrade... OR they have a substantial customer base that has so far refused to pay upgrade... and they have to work a free upgrade to a lowest-end MPEG4 receiver for everyone OR make it very inexpensive.

Stage #3 would most likely take 1-2 years at least depending on how many folks need to be swapped out I would think. Consider how long the over-the-air transition from analog to digital broadcasting has been going on!

All of the above is pure speculation, but there's some logic to it.


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

M Sparks said:


> Your analogy is invalid, and I've seen it many times before. Just because the 921 was a bad receiver doesn't mean you are entitled to a free upgrade.


I was referring to recent non-HD PVR purchasers, which is much more analogous than 921 upgrades. The 921 had a pretty short lifespan.

Was there a trade-in from the 510 to the 921?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

TechnoCat said:


> I was referring to recent non-HD PVR purchasers, which is much more analogous than 921 upgrades. The 921 had a pretty short lifespan.
> 
> Was there a trade-in from the 510 to the 921?


To be fair, that is sort of an apples to oranges comparison.

It is one thing for a company to offer new hardware with more bells & whistles and charge you for upgrades.... It is quite another for them to change the way their system works and require you to buy new hardware just to get the same level of service you have now.

A 510-921 upgrade is an upgrade that provides new features and more modern equipment... a 921-XXX MPEG4 receiver would potentially be a requirement in order to continue service.

The former is a nicety that you can pass on and still receive service... the latter would be something that if you didn't upgrade, you wouldn't get anything if they flip the all/none switch!


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## M Sparks (Sep 28, 2005)

TechnoCat, I'm still missing your point...maybe it's me. The HD receivers have always been sold at a premium. 

Actually, I think I do understand your point, but I think you're missing part of the puzzle. Eventually, EVERYTHING will be in MPEG-4. MPEG-4 will allow DISH to add more services, which allows them to make more money and attract more customers. It's not a "new service" like HD was, although it will be sold to early adopters as such. They can't say "well, you'll need a new reciever to get that service." EVENTUALLY they will HAVE to replace people's equipment, because there won't BE any MPEG-2 service. 

Let's say they add all the HD LILs for New York & LA. This helps attract new customers, who get new MPEG-4 receivers. But they still need to leave the MPEG-2 locals up, which wastes space. If they get MPEG-4 receivers to everyone in those areas, then thay can turn off the SD LIL channels, which frees up space for HD-LIL in other cities, which continues the cycle.

IF the 411 does indeed turn out to be the new base receiver, it's a key to understanding how this all will work. The fact that it's HD, but it cuts corners in other places (no UHF remote, ect), supports this theory. 

So DISH offers free 411s to everyone in those cities. EVERYONE gets HD, EVERYONE gets MPEG-4, everything is easier for DISH. But for people with DVRs (even SD-DVRs), the 411 is not a fair trade.

So DISH gives them an option- take the 411 (perhaps with no extra receiver fee) and keep your current DVR, but you may not be able to record all your local or HD channels. Or pay an upgrade fee and get a 962. (I would expect a few other options as well- a dual tuner "422" (?) and a single tuner HD PVR.)

To use your analogy again- when the 921 came out, no one said "oh, BTW, your 510 will no longer get local channels and it will eventually stop working entirely- would you like to trade it in on a 921?"

DISH will use additional National-HD to lure some people into buying a new receiver at full price. People like me (who JUST dropped $700 on a 942) will hold out for a upgrade deal of some sort, but probably jump at the first one. (Personally, I'm counting on DISH getting to my HD-LIL market within a year.) Eventually the deals will get better, and EVENTUALLY, some people really will get totally free receivers.

Another way to look at it is that they will convert ALL HD to MPEG-4 first, and that HD customers will be the first to benefit from upgrade paths. I'm not sure if I buy that. Or maybe they will convert JUST Voom to MPEG-4. Those that are already subscribed may get first dibs on new recievers. Or since VOOM is going to be required to be in the "basic HD tier", perhaps the current HDpak channels become part of some basic package. ("America's Top 120 HD"?) Those channels stay on DISH 500 in MPEG-2 for now. Then, they come out with a NEW HD Pack, with Voom-21 and other new channels in MPEG-4 on 61.5 and 129. That way, they only need to convert Voomers first.

There are dozens of possibilities, but SOME people will get free or cheap receivers. And some will get suckered.


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## navychop (Jul 13, 2005)

I think there will be deals due to competition. If D* comes thru with generous offers, including free upgrades, then E* will have to offer deals about as good, just to keep customers and market share.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

HDMe has offered what I see as some very realistic speculation in post #40 as everything he said has already happened. Unlike the 942 analogy (there are no channels that only a 942 can receive) it is supported by history as this is how the HDTV channels were moved from QPSK to 8PSK modulation. Owners of the 5000 had to kick and scream and get "special treatment" (big topic at the time on AVSForums) to get an upgrade offer. What make that different from what will happen in a few years is that the 5000 still works, it's only obsolete for the optional HD channels.


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

My opinion is that for existing customers, Dish will sell the 411/962 at full price to the early adopters, give trade ins after 4 to 6 months and give away the 411 after a few years.

So, do I pay full price for a 962 that has not been fully tested or stay with a known POS that is the 921? Since the 962 is supposed to be based on the 942, it will probably be more stable than the 921. After spending $1000 on the 921, I will most likely wait for a few months to see what problems the 962 does have. I had one of the very first 921s, having bought it Dec 31, 2003. Once burned, twice shy.

If the trade in is not enough for me, I may buy a 962 for the living room and move the 921 to the bedroom. At some later time Dish might increase the trade in. My wife mostly records her soaps there on a 510, so the HD is no big advantage, but it would be nice to have the dual tuners. Other options include trading in the 510 or a mothballed 501.

But, I will just wait and see how this all plays out.

"Past performance is not indicative of future results. " Yeah, right! Tell that to the owners of 921s. I have no confidence that Eldon will *ever* do any better than the dismal results so far.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

A local techy radio program stated that D* was going to swap out like kind HD receivers in their Mpeg4 conversion. PVR for PVR and Non PVR for Non PVR. If Dish does that then that is reasonable. If it is the big cash outlay then likely a number will move down the road and take new subscriber deals at other providers.

..doyle


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## DCDeac (Aug 26, 2005)

When I signed up for Dish 2 months ago both the Dish Rep and my local installation guy said they'd be swapping out anyone who had a 942 as first priority for MPEG 4 units.

It's absolutely possible, even likely, that they were bs'ing to get me to sign up. But they said the exact same thing (and they had no contact with each toher) so there must be SOME truth to it...


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

Dish should swap out the 921s as the first priority. It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## M Sparks (Sep 28, 2005)

The 921 AND the 942 should be of equal priority. Their owners are the best customers, and should be treated as such. 

DISH would never give the 921 top priority because that would be admiting they made a mistake.


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## olgeezer (Dec 5, 2003)

M Sparks said:


> The 921 AND the 942 should be of equal priority. Their owners are the best customers, and should be treated as such.
> 
> DISH would never give the 921 top priority because that would be admiting they made a mistake.


Charlie stated in a Chat, that the first folks that would be swapped out would be those that had HD from Dish, as that was the main reason too switch to MP4.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

It seems like they would go for the HD first, partly because HD needs more bandwidth and MPEG4 helps with that... and partly because the HD adopters tend to be more willing to spend money on the new tech.

Now, I'm in that weird limbo... because I was ok paying a lot for my muffler (old commercial) when I bought the 6000u I currently use... so I'm less inclined to bite again unless I'm given a good upgrade.

I figure I'll wait it out, unless they add a dozen "must-see-TV" HD channels all of a sudden in MPEG4 that I can't live without.


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## thxultra (Feb 1, 2005)

If I have to buy new hardware I see myself going cable, the on demand features and no equipment to buy would win me over at this point. I have been very happy with dish so far but would be mad if I had to buy new hardware to keep my current programming.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

At this point for me, the most compelling HD is available OTA. Now that the new network season has started, I haven't watched anything on Voom in three weeks. I don't think I will be in the crowd that pays +$500 to upgrade my 6000 to a new Mpeg 4 receiver. I would spend a couple hundred to upgrade to an HD PVR but that is about it. If I don't upgrade, my 6000 will likely be worth mousenuts on ebay. 

..Doyle


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

DoyleS said:


> At this point for me, the most compelling HD is available OTA.


When the wife and I contemplated the HD upgrade to our Dish, we reviewed what we watch. We're in the Seattle market, which has quite a few local stations. But _none_ of our watching is OTA. We did watch Andromeda and Enterprise for a while, but everything else is on one of the following:

Comedy Channel
ABC Family Channel (Whose Line)
ESPN
SciFi Channel
Fox News / CNN
Fox Northwest Sports
Discovery
TNT/TBS/AMC
Sirius Radio (Hair Nation and Broadway Tunes mostly)
In some areas, TBS/TNT are OTA, but not here. The only exception to all this is that rarely I might, should I be surfing past, stop on a local team playing a game for a bit. But I don't do that more than a few times a year. 
So for us, OTA HDTV would be utterly worthless. Plus we're far enough away, around some hills and surrounded by large trees, that it's unlikely. And the cable company for our area was still struggling to master analog; HDTV is not on their menu. But quite frankly we just don't find network television compelling.


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Of the stations on your list, Discovery, ESPN and TNT are the only ones that have any HD content. So did you decide to go with HD or wait until more stations you are interested in are available?

I have to admit, I am hooked on a number of the network drama series. ...Lost, 24, Boston Legal, Prison Break along with Over There on FX and wish it was in HD. 

..Doyle


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## jimbos (Nov 13, 2003)

garypen said:


> I just wanna know what the hell happened to MPEG3.


The same thing that happened to B-cell batteries...


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

From Wikipedia-
MPEG-3 is the designation for a group of audio and video coding standards agreed upon by MPEG (Moving Picture Experts Group). MPEG-3 was designed to handle HDTV signals in the range of 20 to 40 Mbit/s.
It was soon discovered that similar results could be obtained through slight modifications to the MPEG-2 standard. Shortly thereafter, work on MPEG-3 was discontinued.
MPEG-3 should not be confused with MPEG-1 Part 3 Layer 3 (or MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3), commonly referred to as MP3.

..Doyle


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## TechnoCat (Sep 4, 2005)

DoyleS said:


> Of the stations on your list, Discovery, ESPN and TNT are the only ones that have any HD content. So did you decide to go with HD or wait until more stations you are interested in are available?


We went with HD. We get HBO in HD also, not for everything but for enough. And HDNet is really cool; Hogan's Heros in HD is pretty stunning.

I don't think we'd notice the difference with the Sirius music channels though. :hurah:


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

What codec will the MPEG-4 be? H.264?? Also, im buying a HD Receiver, should i hold off? ty (im new also)  ty trev


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

bump no one even greeted me for joining


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## DoyleS (Oct 21, 2002)

Welcome aboard. You may not have been noticed as it looks like your first posts were in this thread which had pretty much run its course. Fairly wide variety of interests here. The search engine can answer a lot of your questions as most topics have been hashed over a number of times. Whether you hold off on buying an HD receiver is an interesting question. Lots of dialog going on now as to when D* will actually roll out its first Mpeg 4 receivers and what kind of trade in plans they will have. Most feel that there will be nothing substantial until sometime after the first of the year. 

..Doyle


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## EJP (Jun 16, 2004)

I just noticed on the d* hd thread that d* is going to upgrade to MPEG-4 for free.


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## saweetnesstrev (Oct 8, 2005)

Ok thanks so much  me nub


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## JimFunk (Oct 12, 2005)

DoyleS said:


> At this point for me, the most compelling HD is available OTA. Now that the new network season has started, I haven't watched anything on Voom in three weeks. I don't think I will be in the crowd that pays +$500 to upgrade my 6000 to a new Mpeg 4 receiver. I would spend a couple hundred to upgrade to an HD PVR but that is about it. If I don't upgrade, my 6000 will likely be worth mousenuts on ebay.
> 
> ..Doyle


I have a question. You know how the 6000 has the plug in modules in the receiver, is there any way we can swap one of the modules with a new modules that can tune Mpeg4? Is that possible for the owners of the 6000? Or is the 6000 just a old piece of equipment that it is not even supported anymore?

Thanks.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Don't hold your breath - the modules are TUNERS ( satellite 8PSK and terrestial 8VSB ) and doesn't do any decompression like MPEG-2 or H.264 by internal chips soldered on main board.


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## Ghostwriter (Oct 11, 2005)

Are we there yet? Getting a 942 is starting to itch really bad. Starting to wonder if waiting for a 962 is still quite a ways away...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

E*'s 10Q offers some hope ... mentioning HD in MPEG4 by the end of the year or early 2006. Seeing that 2006 is only eight weeks away I'll go for "early 2006".

I'm not buying any new receivers until MPEG4. Each person will have to make their own decision.

JL


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

James Long said:


> ....I'm not buying any new receivers until MPEG4....
> JL


I'm right there with you James but it sure is killing me not being able to DVR HD shows. I hope the heck they have one out before then end of Q1 2006. I have become such an HD snob! :lol:


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## Ghostwriter (Oct 11, 2005)

LOL. I too have become an HD snob. I refuse to watch Sundays football game on anything but HD. Luckily I have 2 more freinds that have HD so we alternate homes


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## phaddon (Dec 5, 2004)

James Long said:


> E*'s 10Q offers some hope ... mentioning HD in MPEG4 by the end of the year or early 2006. Seeing that 2006 is only eight weeks away I'll go for "early 2006".
> 
> I'm not buying any new receivers until MPEG4. Each person will have to make their own decision.
> 
> JL


here's the article from Sky Retailer

DISH Prepares For New Technology 
The nation's No. 2 satellite TV company is preparing new technologies intended to wow its customers and close the gap between itself and its competitor.

In a Securities and Exchange Commission filing released Tuesday, EchoStar said that beginning later this year or early 2006 it intends to make MPEG-4 technology standard in all satellite TV receivers for new customers who subscribe to high-def programming packages. The technology will result in bandwidth efficiencies over time, the company said.

EchoStar also revealed that it's implementing 8PSK technology, which also will help improve bandwidth efficiency and significantly increase the number of channels the DISH Network DBS service can transmit over existing satellites. The company said new channels added to its service using only that technology may allow for a further reduction of conversion costs and create additional revenue opportunities.

"We have not yet determined the extent to which we will convert the EchoStar DBS System to these new technologies, or the period of time over which the conversions will occur," the company said in the SEC filing. If a new satellite, EchoStar X, launches during 2006 and other planned satellites are successfully deployed, the 8PSK transition "will afford us greater flexibility in delaying and reducing the costs to convert our subscriber base to MPEG-4," the company said.

EchoStar also reported that during the third quarter it added about 255,000 net new subscribers to DISH Network during the third quarter, taking the customer total to 11.71 million customers.

later


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## djmav (Apr 14, 2005)

> n a Securities and Exchange Commission filing released Tuesday, EchoStar said that beginning later this year or early 2006 it intends to make MPEG-4 technology standard in all satellite TV receivers for new customers who subscribe to high-def programming packages.


Once again, the current subscriber gets screwed. I hopte they come up with a package it's current subs.


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## DAMAC (Sep 20, 2005)

djmav said:


> Once again, the current subscriber gets screwed. I hopte they come up with a package it's current subs.


I think that news release just indicates what others have posted on this thread. They are going to offer more HD channels in the spring when they start offering the MPEG4 boxing to new subs, which will entice some of the current HD subs to buy the equipment rather than wait for a free/discounted upgrade. How could a company afford to swap out all the existing HD boxes for free on day 1? I just signed up with Dish in Sept and got the 942. I guess I should have held out with the crappy cable company for a little longer to catch the new MPEG4 deployment, but I have been enjoying my 942 and the HD channels I am getting all this fall (love NFL in HD). Plus, I am like Doyle and watch more HD now from the networks through my OTA antenna. So I will be content to wait. I am just happy that E* is working to compete with D* and offer more HD soon.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Let's see if they show us the mpeg4 HD PVR at the upcoming tech chat. If not, I'd guess we're looking at md '06 for the PVR.

The 411 may show up a few months before the PVR. But, does anyone care?


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

I find this very interesting:

"the 8PSK transition "will afford us greater flexibility in delaying and reducing the costs to convert our subscriber base to MPEG-4," the company said. "

In other words they will transistion to 8PSK first, then transition to MPEG-4. That's good news for us 942 owners since the 942 already accepts 8PSK. 

The caveat here is the news story. Was it accurately written? What does it mean?


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

dave1234 said:


> I find this very interesting:
> 
> "the 8PSK transition "will afford us greater flexibility in delaying and reducing the costs to convert our subscriber base to MPEG-4," the company said. "
> 
> ...


Let's take the full context of that paragraph:


SkyRetailer Article said:


> "We have not yet determined the extent to which we will convert the EchoStar DBS System to these new technologies, or the period of time over which the conversions will occur," the company said in the SEC filing. If a new satellite, EchoStar X, launches during 2006 and other planned satellites are successfully deployed, the 8PSK transition "will afford us greater flexibility in delaying and reducing the costs to convert our subscriber base to MPEG-4," the company said.


It bugs me that everyone assumes that they are going to get screwed when MPEG4 comes out. The article, from a reputable source I might add, reveals the fact that a determination (at least publicly) has not been made. I know it isn't fun to take a company at their word, and one might make a reasoned argument that the past experience of some users justifies the reaction.. Myself, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt this time. I just don't see Echostar intentionally taking any action that would significantly reduce its subscriber base.


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## dave1234 (Oct 9, 2005)

I probably should have left the last sentence out...
My intention was to focus on the possible 8PSK plan to delay MPEG4 rollout. It appears if the launch of the new satellite is successful, echostar will have enough extra HD capacity that will allow them to delay the rollout of MPEG4. This was new information for me.


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## PAULSTORM (Nov 1, 2005)

Does anybody know what additional HD channels may be made available with the switch to MPEG4? Will it include a USA-HD? 

I know D* already has Universal and ESPN2 in HD? Are those going to be added anytime soon to the Dish HD package?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

There is no USA-HD last I checked. Someone correct me if I'm wrong


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## Lawood (Jul 29, 2003)

DAMAC said:


> I think that news release just indicates what others have posted on this thread. They are going to offer more HD channels in the spring when they start offering the MPEG4 boxing to new subs, which will entice some of the current HD subs to buy the equipment rather than wait for a free/discounted upgrade. How could a company afford to swap out all the existing HD boxes for free on day 1? I just signed up with Dish in Sept and got the 942. I guess I should have held out with the crappy cable company for a little longer to catch the new MPEG4 deployment, but I have been enjoying my 942 and the HD channels I am getting all this fall (love NFL in HD). Plus, I am like Doyle and watch more HD now from the networks through my OTA antenna. So I will be content to wait. I am just happy that E* is working to compete with D* and offer more HD soon.


If I had a 942 I would likely agree with you, but I don't I have a 921 which has never worked reliable 2 years now and counting and I doubt if it will ever be reliable. So what I am saying as a 5 year customer something had better happen to make me want to stay with Dish. As a customer I feel at least I deserve a discounted upgrade and sooner not later. 
I will not be a customer for long if I am stuck with an inferior 921 when new subscribers are enjoying a new and more reliable MPEG4 DVR box.
If I cancel isn't that like losing a new subscriber and believe I will if I feel I am not treated fair.


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## DAMAC (Sep 20, 2005)

I can't argue with you on that. I do think the 921 owners should be first in line for a swap-out. But as another member posted, that would mean E* would be admitting they made a mistake. I don't think they are willing to do that.


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## dwcobb (Oct 13, 2005)

....everyone here and on other boards seems to have been so sure that Dish would indeed put together a special deal for current customers. Have they ever done so?

They definitely didn't with the 942 vs. the 921. Someone alluded I think to something that happened a long, long time ago, but here we are talking about a change that affects hardware for over 12 MILLION customers.

I have never really felt in my heart they would cut current customers any deals.

But they darn well better give a discount on that new box, and they sure as heck better let current customers buy them. When I go into their site right now, the 942 isn't even listed as an upgrade option for me. I have to dig to find a way to buy it.

I have been holding out with a piece of crap box for over a year now and my patience is getting very thin. I need to reset my 921 nearly constantly, and it is always getting its pitiful brain confused about what day it actually is and recording the wrong things.

If I have difficulty getting a 962 in the first wave, or if they expect me to pay $700 or $900 for one, I will be very motivated to move back to D* where I was always very happy.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

David_Levin said:


> Let's see if they show us the mpeg4 HD PVR at the upcoming tech chat. If not, I'd guess we're looking at md '06 for the PVR.
> 
> The 411 may show up a few months before the PVR. But, does anyone care?


Thread

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=47861

Says the 411 is announced for release by the end of the month. No word on the 962.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Dish has offered existing subscribers substantial discounts on receivers in the past. When the 811 came out, I bought mine for $199 and I know other subscribers that only paid $149 because they were subscribed to more programming. I also took advantage of an offer to buy a 510 at a substantial discount although I don't remember exactly how much. Certainly these offers were not as good as what new subscribers get but then again when I first joined Dish, I did receive a huge discount on the receiver as well as a programming discount.

I do not own a 921 but based on what I have read in this and other forums, 921 owners have gotten screwed by Dish. Unfortunately, the 411 is not a DVR so a swap out may not be acceptable for many 921 owners. The MPEG-4 DVR may not be out for a few months after the release of the 411 and I would hope that Dish will do something special for the 921 when it comes to MPEG-4 upgrades.


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## navychop (Jul 13, 2005)

dwcobb:

If you were "always very happy" at D* how is it you moved to E*?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

navychop said:


> dwcobb:
> 
> If you were "always very happy" at D* how is it you moved to E*?


You see these kind of posts literally by the hundreds, and I always wonder too...

I'd just about guarantee the answer is, "I got a lot cheaper offer I couldnt pass up"


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> You see these kind of posts literally by the hundreds, and I always wonder too...
> 
> I'd just about guarantee the answer is, "I got a lot cheaper offer I couldnt pass up"


Which is why I always respond to the "why won't Dish give me a special great deal" questions with the standard... if they have to bribe you to stay, you aren't worth it... response. People that switch for the better deal will always switch and will switch back later too. Not worth going out of your way to keep them.

Now, as for the MPEG4 receiver swapouts... It is a completely different animal than any of the other swapouts they have done recently... because Dish will want eventually to switch to MPEG4 across the board... so initially they will offer some reduced price initiatives to get you to switch and help out + offer some new channels as well... but eventually they would have to (2-3 years or more down the road) swap out everyone else for free before they could complete the switchover... so the deal you get will ultimately depend on how long you can hold out waiting.


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## dwcobb (Oct 13, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> You see these kind of posts literally by the hundreds, and I always wonder too...
> 
> I'd just about guarantee the answer is, "I got a lot cheaper offer I couldnt pass up"


Should never assume what someone else's motivations are but three have you have run with that supposition now. I don't give a darn about the difference in rates. Rate differences rae negligible to me - maybe $5 a month between D* and E*? If that. I had better reception on D* and a better customer experience. And they have Tivo, and I really hated giving up Tivo when I got HD.

I switched because E* had Style Network and D* didn't. Style was on Comcast when we were there, and it was important in the household if not so much to me. Local Comcast service is really appalling (very expensive and very very few channels), so it was a choice between E* and appalling cable.

I check D* regularly to see if they have added Style. I would switch back in a heartbeat if they did.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I'm not that fickle.

JL


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I've had D* since 97, and never thought about switching, even with all the supposedly better deals. I dont play that game, with tv, phone or any other stuff.


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