# Home theater reccomendations? (for use with D* Receivers)



## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

Are there any home theaters recommended for use with D* receivers? In particular the H21. I know it has a Optical and Coax connection, is there any thing I should look out for? I currently own a $60 cheapo walmart 5.1 system, and the sub makes a horrible buzzing sound. I know this mat be off topic, but I want to make sure the system would work good with D*


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

love my Onkyo 
also buy BIG.. you can't have too much power in surround sound..


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## phat78boy (Sep 12, 2007)

If you are looking for an all-in-one type solution, Bose makes some very nice products. If your going to build it from the ground up, we could be here all year recommending items.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

houskamp said:


> love my Onkyo
> also buy BIG.. you can't have too much power in surround sound..


Just out of curiosity - are you using HDMI inputs for switching audio and video ? I know there have been a few reports of HDMI handshaking issues ( at least with TV's - can't say I have seen anyone who has had any problems with receivers ).


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

I'd never use anything but Denon for my A/V receiver needs. Just my opinion though.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

houskamp said:


> love my Onkyo
> also buy BIG.. you can't have too much power in surround sound..


I'm a big Onkyo fan myself. Their audio performance is outstanding.

I have all Onkyo equipment in my dedicated Home Theater....not to be confused with my Onkyo equipment in my media room (aka Family Room).


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## Malo83 (Oct 26, 2007)

PIONEER Elite receivers for me 
What is your budget? all the DTV receivers will work with just about anything.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

bhelton71 said:


> Just out of curiosity - are you using HDMI inputs for switching audio and video ? I know there have been a few reports of HDMI handshaking issues ( at least with TV's - can't say I have seen anyone who has had any problems with receivers ).


I have one of the older ones without HDMI... see signature.. I have a MX700 programmable remote that handles the "settings"


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## Hdhead (Jul 30, 2007)

I use a Yamaha and love it. Be sure to get one with component and/or HDMI switching for the greatest versatility. Always think forward to future add-ons so 2 years from now you don't kick yourself for skimping.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Hdhead said:


> I use a Yamaha and love it. Be sure to get one with component and/or HDMI switching for the greatest versatility. Always think forward to future add-ons so 2 years from now you don't kick yourself for skimping.


And pre-outs for those additional amps 

I am a firm believer that you have to use full-size speakers to move the air - those little cubes just don't cut it. And a/v receivers generally don't have enough power.


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## phat78boy (Sep 12, 2007)

bhelton71 said:


> And pre-outs for those additional amps
> 
> I am a firm believer that you have to use full-size speakers to move the air - those little cubes just don't cut it. And a/v receivers generally don't have enough power.


Bose is the one exception to that. What they do with tiny speakers and small subwoofer is amazing. I don't own a Bose system as I have always been a "bigger is better" guy when it comes to speakers. They have really changed my mind though.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

must... stay.... out...... of.... bose... argument.... :lol:


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## jahgreen (Dec 15, 2006)

houskamp said:


> must... stay.... out...... of.... bose... argument.... :lol:


+1


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## phat78boy (Sep 12, 2007)

houskamp said:


> must... stay.... out...... of.... bose... argument.... :lol:


lol. I understand.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

In general most anything will work... as evidenced by the wide range of responses already.  

AVSForum is a fabulous resource when you get to wanting feedback on a specific model.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

houskamp said:


> must... stay.... out...... of.... bose... argument.... :lol:


Not meeeeeeeeeeee!! No highs , No lows must be *BOSE* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

armophob said:


> Not meeeeeeeeeeee!! No highs , No lows must be *BOSE* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Ok, I'll add.

B etter
O ff w/
S omething
E lse


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

Hah, Bose I wish, I cant afford that period, moving on  (if i wish to hear Bose "power" I go to my friends house who has a full out Bose system.) 

Anyways, Whats this "pass through" deal, I assumed people only used HDMI inputs on their sound systems to avoid more cables because HDMI carries sound signals also. I was planning on using an optical cable for sound. Is there something else coming soon? I do not yet own a Hd or bluray, I plan on getting one within the next 6 moths though, at that point I planned on Using coax for direc TV, and Optical for the hd/bluray.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

armophob said:


> Not meeeeeeeeeeee!! No highs , No lows must be *BOSE* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I was just about to say that!!!! :lol:

honestly though... bose _has_ come a long way.... I'm in the car audio industry... and consider myself to have a very good ear for sound... i have a pair of bose headphones and they are outstanding... especially considering their price... the bose system in my yukon... not so great... but it'll work until I have time to replace it... and as for bose home stuff... the 3-2-1 sounds pretty dang good.... especially for people with limited space/options.... but I prefer higher end stuff than that....

just my two cents anyway...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

houskamp said:


> must... stay.... out...... of.... bose... argument.... :lol:





jahgreen said:


> +1





braven said:


> Ok, I'll add.
> 
> B etter
> O ff w/
> ...


As much as I enjoy chiming in on this particular subject...I think others are doing just fine "filling in"... :lol:


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

I am very happy with my Sony STR-DG1000, which accepts HDMI and component/digital audio inputs and outputs to HDMI for my TV.

Spearkers are Boston Acoustics fronts, center and subwoofer. Older Phase Techs for surround.

My remote is setup so that if I am controlling the HR20-700, one push of the button picks that through the AVR and picture and sound come up. Same for Tivo and HR10 and DVD. All switching through the Sony DG1000.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

doubleatheman said:


> Hah, Bose I wish, I cant afford that period, moving on  (if i wish to hear Bose "power" I go to my friends house who has a full out Bose system.)
> 
> Anyways, Whats this "pass through" deal, I assumed people only used HDMI inputs on their sound systems to avoid more cables because HDMI carries sound signals also. I was planning on using an optical cable for sound. Is there something else coming soon? I do not yet own a Hd or bluray, I plan on getting one within the next 6 moths though, at that point I planned on Using coax for direc TV, and Optical for the hd/bluray.


I would guess for better or for worse HDMI is here for a while. VESA is showing off a new connector "DisplayPort" which can handle 10.2 Gbps but I think storage has to make another leap (holographic) before we need that.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

For those who don't follow net audio opinions closely, Bose has a very bad reputation. I haven't had Bose equipment, myself.

Here is a potential issue with how receivers handle channel surfing: Do modes work for all audio formats, and is the mode setting for each audio format remembered? For example, suppose you're on a channel that has Dolby Digital 2 channel sound and you set the receiver to extend the 2 channels to all 8 channels using Pro-Logic IIx, then you change to a channel that has 2 channel pcm sound. Can you set the receiver to use the same Pro-Logic IIx processing? And when you change back to the preceding channel, will the receiver automatically detect the changed audio format and remember the setting you gave for that format previously?

The receiver I have now, Pioneer VSX-1700, does the right thing as you surf. The last receiver I had, Kenwood VR-6070, did not do the right thing, and it was a real pain changing the receiver's mode continually.


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

GregLee said:


> For those who don't follow net audio opinions closely, Bose has a very bad reputation. I haven't had Bose equipment, myself.
> 
> Here is a potential issue with how receivers handle channel surfing: Do modes work for all audio formats, and is the mode setting for each audio format remembered? For example, suppose you're on a channel that has Dolby Digital 2 channel sound and you set the receiver to extend the 2 channels to all 8 channels using Pro-Logic IIx, then you change to a channel that has 2 channel pcm sound. Can you set the receiver to use the same Pro-Logic IIx processing? And when you change back to the preceding channel, will the receiver automatically detect the changed audio format and remember the setting you gave for that format previously?
> 
> The receiver I have now, Pioneer VSX-1700, does the right thing as you surf. The last receiver I had, Kenwood VR-6070, did not do the right thing, and it was a real pain changing the receiver's mode continually.


Interesting point actually, The Cheap thing I have now, Recognizes the input change when I change from a channel with 5.1 to 2.1 but I still have to press a button to get sound back, It is a real pain.

You have brought up a interesting problem, its not like it will be written on the box if a system can "change on the fly with format changes" looks Like I need to do some research.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Basically, you are looking for an automatic mode. That is what change on the fly means.


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## Pinion413 (Oct 21, 2007)

braven said:


> Ok, I'll add.
> 
> B etter
> O ff w/
> ...


:thats:

I've gotta file that one in the ol' cesspool of useless knowledge. 

I personally have always found Bose to be lacking a lot in the mid-range. Very impressive sounding for what their systems are, but what they are are overpriced and lacking elements that would allow for truly "rich" sound.

That said, I'd have to recommend Onkyo. Even their Home Theater-in-a-box's are very good, especially for the money.

If you want to spend more money, Yamaha, Denon, perhaps Polk (speakers).


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

B uy
O ur
S imulated
E ntertainment


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

armophob said:


> B uy
> O ur
> S imulated
> E ntertainment


I take it you don't like your audio stretched!


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## cwdonahue (Jun 6, 2007)

It would help all of us if you could give us an idea of your budget. Also, I'm assuming you will be purchasing a full set of speakers (5) plus a subwoofer, but...are you willing to do some work with wires and cables to set this thing up? One advantage of HTIB is fewer cables and precut wires, etc. It's an advantage, but certainly not something I believe is a worthwhile advantage given my personal buying perferences.

Also, you might get pointed at some products you can't pick up at Best Buy, Circuit City, or Walmart for that matter. Do you have local A/V dealers in your area that you are willing to work with? I personally love Paradigm speakers, but you have to go an independent A/V dealer to get them, not a big box store. They have a very broad product line from value priced to audiophile, so they can fit just about any budget. Are you willing to go the internet purchasing route? If so, companies like Outlaw Audio should be on your list to check out. Great products at great prices and they've expanded their product line so they are pretty much a one-stop-shop these days, but it means you are on your own to get things assembled and working without local support.

You've also been getting lots of input here on getting and HDMI capable receiver, but you should probably make sure it's an HDMI 1.3 capable receiver which narrows the field for now. HDMI 1.3 is really just starting to roll into most manufacturers' product lines and I'm not sure the "lower end" offerings include that yet. Personally, I have no problem with connecting source devices directly to my TV and pre-amp/processor. Instead, I use a good universal remote (Logitech Harmony product line) to make the system functions as an integrated whole vs. getting the "one button to push" route by making everything flow through the receiver or pre/pro. It's a choice. You just need to decide which way you want to go with things. So, some more info. and we can provide some more focused help here.

Good luck and good hunting.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

tonyd79 said:


> I take it you don't like your audio stretched!


Not stretched, thrown like a ventriloquist.:lol: But stretch my video baby!!


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

If you have a Panasonic TV that supports HDAVI aka. Viera Link aka EZ-SYNC, take a look at the Panasonic XR-S55 amp. If you use the HDAVI between them, when you activate "Home Theatre" on the TV, the TV turns on the amplifier and turns off the TV speakers ... and then converts TV volume controls into amp volume controls. Very nice for wife acceptance factor.


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## shelland (Jul 10, 2007)

doubleatheman said:


> Hah, Bose I wish, I cant afford that period, moving on


Why would you want to?  If you're going to invest in HT, at least buy some quality!



> (if i wish to hear Bose "power" I go to my friends house who has a full out Bose system.)


Since when does Bose have any "power"?


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## phat78boy (Sep 12, 2007)

I think a lot of us forget we are way more technical then a lot of people out there. There is no question I could build a better surround system then any Bose system, as I have. The point is as an out of the box surround system, there isn't much better on that particular scale. It will self setup all adjustment and timings for both speakers and subwoofer and that alone is worth it for most people. 

The OP didn't sound like he wanted to build a system, he sounded like he wanted good sound with little worries about hookup. While not being the best you can buy, it sounded like a good fit for him. 

As cwdonhaue said, it would help us a lot to know the things he had listed. Cost, amount of speakers, and how much work you want to put in are biggies.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

As others have said, it boils down to your budget and how much work you want to do, etc.

I have an older Sony which is (fortunately) on it's last leg! When it dies, I'll be picking up something from Emotiva (www.emotiva.com). Probably the Ultra pair, as that's about all I think I can get my wife to let me spend! They make a set of seperates that are, from what I've heard, out of this world, for a very reasonable price. I'm not an "audiophyle", per se, but I like to get the most bang for my buck, and this pair gets rave reviews, and I have a friend who's heard the emotiva stuff and was very impressed.

Of course, the Ultra combo, last I checked was $1000 for the seperates, and still needs speakers. I have some Infinity speakers, which were another "bang for the buck" purchase. About $1000 for the set, and they sound really good for my space. Comparable to much more expensive speakers.

If money were no object, my dream set is here:
http://nhthifi.com/current/ht-s-ultimate.html
but not in that natural color - they make it in a black/maroon combo.

Last I checked, the entire set would only cost me about $12K. I have some friends who've done work for NHT, and drool troughs are handed out at the door when you go in their showroom - their sound is unreal. Of course, spend that kind of dough on that setup, and you hear the inadequacies of your other pieces in your system and you just want to add more and more high end components...

If you're looking for the more basic, HTIB type setup, I'll add my voice to the Onkyo crowd. Nice stuff.

And if you're really tight on space, the Bose 321 is actually a pretty good setup. My folks wanted to get "surround sound" but didn't want to do the work of getting speakers in the back of the room, etc, etc. Instead, they went with the 321, and while it's not knock you out of your chair sound, it's actually a pretty good setup for the price/size.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

phat78boy said:


> I think a lot of us forget we are way more technical then a lot of people out there. There is no question I could build a better surround system then any Bose system, as I have. The point is as an out of the box surround system, there isn't much better on that particular scale. It will self setup all adjustment and timings for both speakers and subwoofer and that alone is worth it for most people.
> 
> The OP didn't sound like he wanted to build a system, he sounded like he wanted good sound with little worries about hookup. While not being the best you can buy, it sounded like a good fit for him.
> 
> As cwdonhaue said, it would help us a lot to know the things he had listed. Cost, amount of speakers, and how much work you want to put in are biggies.


Agreed, but that still does not move Bose out of targeted cheap jabs. For the OP, there are endless less expensive solutions instead of Bose now a days. Some of us just love the chance to poke fun when it presents the opportunity. Well mostly me anyhow.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm not even sure what the OP is asking/looking for.

Home Theater recommendation? Do you mean a receiver? Speakers? Subwoofer? Projector? Screen? Other display?

I've been in a lot of home theaters that I would recommend, but I don't think any of the owners are selling. A home theater is a destination. It's a place that encompasses many of the above. You can't buy one. You can build one. You can buy some of the components that are included in one, but you can't buy it. 

Nobody can recommend a home theater. They can recommend gear for your living room, but only if you specify exactly what gear you're looking for and what your budget is.

Now, if you are really interested in a home theater, let me know your usable space dimensions and overall budget and I can try and come up with some basic ideas in terms of design to include not only layout, seating placement, speaker placement, stage and riser dimensions, equipment cabinet specs and a lighting package, but also accoustic panels, double dry-wall, bass traps, soffit/column design and equipment ideas.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I'm not even sure what the OP is asking/looking for.
> 
> Home Theater recommendation? Do you mean a receiver? Speakers? Subwoofer? Projector? Screen? Other display?


And to add, money is the biggest restriction on all fronts. Without detail I am in over $30K on mine to date and growing. But a very satisfying system can be made with $1500 or less.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Are there any receivers out there that have more then 4 HDMI inputs? I know, I know, but those fill up fast.


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

Pioneer Elite in the living room, but Krell in the theater.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

Bose - the perfect complement to Monster cables.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

theratpatrol said:


> Are there any receivers out there that have more then 4 HDMI inputs? I know, I know, but those fill up fast.


Why yes, of course(in my best stuck up euro trash accent). for a mere $5,000

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3755.asp


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

armophob said:


> Why yes, of course(in my best stuck up euro trash accent). for a mere $5,000
> 
> http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3755.asp


Now that looks pretty cool, pricey, but cool. 6 HDMI inputs just might be enough. 

But what gets me is why do they still make receivers with that many composite and S-video inputs? I guess people still have older units with those outputs, but that many?


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## demonstimpy (Jul 29, 2004)

Very happy with Harmon Kardon. I have had Denon and Yamaha in the past. Also make very nice receivers.

http://www.harmankardon.com/product...=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&prod=AVR 645&sType=C



theratpatrol said:


> Now that looks pretty cool, pricey, but cool. 6 HDMI inputs just might be enough.
> 
> But what gets me is why do they still make receivers with that many composite and S-video inputs? I guess people still have older units with those outputs, but that many?


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## Snoofie (May 29, 2003)

I am also an Onkyo fan. I bought a Sony Home Theater in a box 2 years ago when we moved in to our new house because my wife was not going to let me keep my big Infinity speakers set-up anymore. I recently switched out the Sony receiver and put my Onkyo back in action full time. It had been in the basement getting only sporadic use when I would be down there. I will probably have to upgrade to something with HDMI pass through if I add one more piece of HD equipment though.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

armophob said:


> Not meeeeeeeeeeee!! No highs , No lows must be *BOSE* :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


+1 I returned my mini-cube system the day I got it and went back my Bose 601 wallbangers (see, I'm not Bose intolerant -- I just think they gave up quality sound when they gave up the air moving speakers).

Given that the OP currently has a $60 system, he can expect almost anything to be a HUGE improvement. Almost any good brand name (previous posts) will give you good sound (those who will only use a given brand usually have ONLY used that brand and have nothing to compare against). There are many 5.1 and 7.1 "surround in a box" systems ranging from about $200 to $700 that will likely be satisfactory. Separate component systems, will almost always be better if properly researched, but that doesn't sound like what he wants and will also cost more. If you're going in the separates direction, take the time to go to an audio/home theater specialty store (not CC or BB) to talk and listen. You may not want a $1000 to $100,000 system, but it's nice to know what they sound like and what it takes to get that sound.

My system is now 10 year old and cost me $16,000 (1997 dollars). It is AWESOME, but you can get 90 - 95% of that sound for $500 - $1000 (that's a guess, but I'll stand by it). My system is based on a Lexicon surround processor/preamp with top of the line Mirage speakers and at least 100 watts per each of 7 channels. It's a bit of overkill for some, but it's sweet! (Those were the days of two good incomes and big bonuses which actually bought the system.)

As a base, I agree with the statement that you can only get truly big sound with big systems. Everything else is illusion -- but some of those illusions are really nice.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I, too, am confused by what the OP means by "home theater". Many of you up here took it to mean the AV receiver, others took it to mean the whole setup. By way of assistance to the OP, I will share my experiences. I started with a "HT in a box" - small cube speakers and a cheapo proprietary amp. I then graduated to a low-end Sony AV receiver, and got some BIG BOX speakers. Much better. Fast forward, we had kids, big boxes had to go. I kept the Sony AV, but went back to tiny cubes. I discovered I hated tiny cubes. I then upgraded to a top-end SOny AV receiver, a separate 12" powered sub-woofer, and back to BIG BOX speakers - a matched Polk set. I also have a small Bose setup in another area.

I discovered, once again, that one cannot fool with the laws of physics. Sound is movement of air, basically, and if you want big sound, you have to move a lot of air. In order to move a lot of air, you need a large surface area on your speakers, and a lot of power to drive them in a controlled fashion.


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## saleen351 (Mar 28, 2006)

If you put all these sound experts in a room, blind fold them, they couldn't tell the difference between any of these systems.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

There is a lot of truth to that statement. Real differences don't show up until you start driving the volume up, or have a larger space. Those (like my father) who hate loud sound, period, will never hear any difference. Those (like me), who take every chance to turn my system up to movie theater levels, can tell a big system from a small one, but differences between name brands will be very difficult to tell, if at all.



saleen351 said:


> If you put all these sound experts in a room, blind fold them, they couldn't tell the difference between any of these systems.


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

When it comes right down to it, this probably isn't the forum for the OP's question. (Except insofar as the discussion involves glitches with the HR20...I haven't seen many complaints of those recently, have you? especially with newer receivers?)

IMHO, here's my advice:
First - :money: - how much money do you want to spend. Pick a budget first. Stick to it. Don't go a dime over it. You can spend anywhere from $200 to $20,000 on a receiver. So you have to pick a budget first.

Second - understand the D* platform minimum requirements for fully utilizing the sound output - you need a receiver that supports digital input (coax/spdif/hdmi) and Dolby Digital. Depending on how much stock you place in it and your set up with your TV, you might want HDMI or you might want to avoid it. (There have been some complaints in these forums using HDMI with the HR20--but I believe they've not been common with newer receivers.) If I were buying a new receiver, I'd get one that supports HDMI; but I could see it either way so long as coax/spdif.

Third - avsforums - go there. Read about different receivers. Different features you might care about. What matters; what doesn't. Recognize that it is the uber-geek poster who most commonly posts there and take everything with a grain of salt. Use the forums to try to figure out what receivers fit into your sweet-spot of budget while still being of value. Try to find the one that is in your budget that has the best value. Figure out whether future-proofing is within your budget or even something you care about.

Fourth - (can't resist) - Stay away from Bose regardless of budget. (You generally can get better sound from cheaper receivers.)

Fifth - Don't forget speakers...they matter more than the receiver after a certain price range...

Sixth - Take anyone who has the time to post something with six points with a huge grain of salt. This really isn't that hard so long as you stay within your price range and make sure it has Dolby D support. Enjoy!


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## bluesman40220 (Jul 13, 2006)

I have to second the Onkyo love! I have a new 705 and it rocks. Latest firmware and plenty of hdmi connections. When you upgrade be sure to consider this one. Spend the extra dollars now for a good AVR and you won't be disappointed and upgrading again for a long time.


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## Heem(JimmyG) (Nov 15, 2007)

We currently have an Onkyo but are more than likely moving that to the bedroom and putting in a new Yamaha in the "home theater". The Yamaha RX-V1800BL has 4 in 1 out HDMI and supports all the new sound programs, DTS HD, Dolby True HD, etc. It will switch inputs automatically and also auto upconverts signals to the highest quality possible. It does far more than that but you can read about the specifics o the Yamaha web site.

I think most new receivers will do most of these things. It comes down to what features you want and what pricepoint you want to pay. Comparing receivers, at the big box retail center pricing, you have to spend roughly $500-1000 more to get the same or near the same features from Denon and Pioneer as you do on the Yamaha. (not bashing just passing on what I found doing a little research)

We have compared the Yamaha and the Onkyo TX-805, both are good and you cant go wrong either way. If you are in good with you AV guy or business then you should be able to get either one for less than a grand, they run about $1200 and $1100 respectively retail pricing. Make sure you look at places such as Vanns.com out of Montana, Amazon.com, Buy.com, etc. These places are usually better than big box retail in pricing as long as you can set it up your self. Good luck.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

one other sugestion: if you buy a home theater in a box, buy couple hundred feet of good speaker cable.. the stuff they ship with is usualy way to light of a wire and too short to do a nice install..


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## Moocher (Feb 5, 2007)

To the OP. Yes, your existing inexpensive system will work with DirecTV for sound. It will be easy to set up and will sound as good as it did with any other input. It won't have all the flexibility of more expensive systems and there are some things it just won't do, but it will do what it did without DirecTV.

To get an idea of what is usually considered affordable home theater in a box recommendations, check out the following link to a podcast by the HTGuys. You might find some of their other podcasts helpful as well.

http://www.htguys.com/archive/2007/November30.html

Mooch


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## mridan (Nov 15, 2006)

I do not recommend the new Onkyo Receivers,see this thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=110381


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

saleen351 said:


> If you put all these sound experts in a room, blind fold them, they couldn't tell the difference between any of these systems.


I'm no sound expert, but I'd gladly take that challenge.

Anyone that has auditioned speakers correctly (this should be equal to anyone that's every purchased speakers, but sadly it's not) has done exactly that. Every set of speakers and every receiver can give a different sound. Some good, some bad, some indifferent. But I can tell the difference on most of them (especially when you're talking about HTIB or Bose vs. anything of quality).


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

One thing I always recommend, no matter what, when looking at a new system, is buy components (individual pieces). Stay away from HT in a Box, and anything else "all-in-one". You can build up your system over time, adding pieces along the way. It's more expensive, but a much better experience IMO. 

(Also staying away from Bose discussion) 

EDIT: BTW a bit off-topic but over the holidays I took a long look at my system and couldn't believe how much things have changed over time. 

I have no: Cassette, CD Player, Tuner (member those  ), Turntable (although I might get a USB one someday), TiVo

I DO have: HR20, Mac Mini, external firewire drive, eSATA drive, PS3, Slingbox.

My how things have changed.


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## RVD26 (Oct 12, 2007)

A good (and inexpensive all-in-one home theater system is the Onkyo SR800
The receiver has all the connections you need and the speakers sound great as well


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

Not to hijack, but RVD, how are your signal strengths these days?


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

Like Lupis says, stay away from Home Theaters in a box. In my own humble opinion Denon is great... Onkyo's a great but I've seen a a couple problem threads over at AVSforum.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Canis Lupus said:


> You can build up your system over time, adding pieces along the way. It's more expensive, but a much better experience IMO.


Whether it's more expensive depends on where you shop. My side surround speakers are Coral BX-300 bought from the Salvation Army for $11, and my previous fronts were Sansui SP-A3100 I got at a garage sale for < $30. You don't need to spend thousands on each piece to make it interesting and fun.


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

True. I should have said "can" be more expensive. But your point adds to mine - you get flexibility this way 



GregLee said:


> Whether it's more expensive depends on where you shop. My side surround speakers are Coral BX-300 bought from the Salvation Army for $11, and my previous fronts were Sansui SP-A3100 I got at a garage sale for < $30. You don't need to spend thousands on each piece to make it interesting and fun.


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

Sorry I haven't replied sooner, I wrote a reply this morning clicked submit, and poof, "your not logged in" I got discouraged, so here I am again typing it all out. (this time I will copy and paste before I click submit.)

First off I am sorry for not being clear on my original questions, and budget. I want a Home Theater in a Box. All these posts here are very informative or at least entertaining with a anti bose argument  So Thanks for all the replies. And for all the suggestions in the $2000-$50000 range, sure its fun to imagine or drool. Yes this may be off topic for these forums, but I wanted to know what I need to look for when buying a system to work with D*, This is why I left it general. I wanted to learn the features necessary to work with D* One thing I Know is it needs to be able to change decoding types on the fly, Ie: channel surfing it needs to change automatically as needed.

My budget is $175-300, yea its cheap. I'm pretty much broke after purchasing my first HDTV, I'm just entering the home theater market. My $60 HTiB was OK along side my 27" tube tv, Now with the hdtv its a sad excuse for sound, it always was but hey I enjoyed it. I'm ready for better sound, and sound that will work with D*. Anything should be an improvement from my $60 system. I prefer a system that does not include a dvd player, I would like 100% of my investment to go into sound quality. I have a dvd player now (not up-convert) I plan on Buying a Hd/Bluray in 6 months or so. Buying another dvd player would just be a waste. My current dvd player has Optical and Coaxal Outputs, and so does my D* receiver.

I found this Sony: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?partNumber=HTDDW790&catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1
It was on demo in the store, and the store demo sound track was switching from surround to stereo to simulate the differences, the system automatically adjusted. Also I downloaded the PDF manual for it, and it talks about (on page 41) A.F.D it sounds like it automatically detects the audio input format. http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/HTDDW790.pdf

So I think I have my eyes on the Sony, but other systems in that range are options.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Here is a discussion of small systems, including a favorable review comment about the one you have your eye on.


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

If you're looking at just audio stuff...

I'd recommend the Pioneer HTS-GS1 from buy.com. It's only $99.00 (marked down from $400). I got it for Christmas this year and love it.

It doesn't have any video inputs, but does have a few audio inputs. 2xoptical, 1xdigital coaxial, 1xanalog.

It's definitely in your price range, works great with my HR20-700 and XBOX 360 and has quite a few options to it...

EDIT: Seems they are sold out at the moment....


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

ncxcstud said:


> If you're looking at just audio stuff...
> 
> I'd recommend the Pioneer HTS-GS1 from buy.com. It's only $99.00 (marked down from $400). I got it for Christmas this year and love it.
> 
> ...


I looked at that one, It does bug me it would have an xbox logo on it , Ill put that into my considerations, they also have this system at my local walmart.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

doubleatheman said:


> My budget is $175-300, yea its cheap. ....................................................................Anything should be an improvement from my $60 system.


I don't think so. IMO, don't buy anything. Make do with your $60 system for now. When you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 speaker system (like the Klipsch Quintets). Then, when you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 receiver. Then buy a $300 or so subwoofer.

If you spend $200 - $300 now on a HTIB, I think you'll be wasting your money. Now, if you didn't have anything, I'd say go ahead and give it a try, but since you already have a system (even if it's only a $60 system), you're better off waiting awhile and building your system, instead of totally replacing components every year or so.


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

GregLee said:


> Here is a discussion of small systems, including a favorable review comment about the one you have your eye on.


thanks for the link


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## doubleatheman (Dec 29, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I don't think so. IMO, don't buy anything. Make do with your $60 system for now. When you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 speaker system (like the Klipsch Quintets). Then, when you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 receiver. Then buy a $300 or so subwoofer.
> 
> If you spend $200 - $300 now on a HTIB, I think you'll be wasting your money. Now, if you didn't have anything, I'd say go ahead and give it a try, but since you already have a system (even if it's only a $60 system), you're better off waiting awhile and building your system, instead of totally replacing components every year or so.


Good point here.... Worth considering, but I got that itchy gota get it now feeling  Ill sleep on it


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

doubleatheman said:


> Good point here.... Worth considering, but I got that itchy gota get it now feeling  Ill sleep on it


I missed what all you actually have now, but if you can only spend $300, I would recommend you go out and test center channels from everyone. Boston, Energy, Klipsch, Monitor Audio, etc.... (its been a little while since I really tested smaller speaker systems, but I used to really like the Boston Acoustics Micro 10K series sub sat system. Everyones ears are different though, and you need to listen to them yourself. And on different receivers as well. Every company has its own sound. Klipsch makes a great speaker, but I personally can't stand there sound. I will say however, bose is nothing more than a waste of money, period. They are however the greatest marketed company in the world. Most audio is marked up 60 to 65 % (speakers) based off what bose is made of, I'd say they are marked up closer to 90%.) Most make a good entry center channel for around 300, and that will immediately enhance you sound quality. Later, add a good solid sub. Then front speakers, then a new receiver to really unleash your newer speakers, then add surround speakers. Even better, if you are a credit kind a guy, look around and see if anyone is offering 3 or 4 year financing and then get it all. Just don't overspend what your budget for the next few years...


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I'll agree speakers will make a difference, but equally powered quality amps, not so much to the average home user, unless you are talking really cheap boxes that impute their own coloration into the signal.

To the OP - I would not be afraid to start with a $300 Sony, and build from there, by eventually upgrading the speakers, buying a powered sub, etc. This is exactly what I did. The thing that made the biggest difference to me, sonically speaking, was upgrading from cubes to generic boxes, and then upgrading those boxes to a matching Polk set.



spartanstew said:


> I'm no sound expert, but I'd gladly take that challenge.
> 
> Anyone that has auditioned speakers correctly (this should be equal to anyone that's every purchased speakers, but sadly it's not) has done exactly that. Every set of speakers and every receiver can give a different sound. Some good, some bad, some indifferent. But I can tell the difference on most of them (especially when you're talking about HTIB or Bose vs. anything of quality).


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

saleen351 said:


> If you put all these sound experts in a room, blind fold them, they couldn't tell the difference between any of these systems.


And they'd probably pick the Bose.


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## oenophile (Dec 1, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I'm no sound expert, but I'd gladly take that challenge.
> 
> Anyone that has auditioned speakers correctly (this should be equal to anyone that's every purchased speakers, but sadly it's not) has done exactly that. Every set of speakers and every receiver can give a different sound. Some good, some bad, some indifferent. But I can tell the difference on most of them (especially when you're talking about HTIB or Bose vs. anything of quality).


:soapbox: 
Apologies for off topic post...

but I can't let this pass; this isn't right with respect to amplifiers and receivers, given equivalent speakers. (I won't argue much that the speakers do matter; but this post (I thought) was more about receivers/amplifiers.) Leaving this unchallenged is bad for newbies to see. This isn't quite as bad as the "expensive cables" lie, but it is close.

There are plenty of articles from reputable publications showing that very very experienced experts can't tell the difference between a $20k amplifier and a $2k amplifier.

Here are some links backing that assertion up:
Do All Amplifiers Sound Alike (Stereo Review Magazine) http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf
"The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio" (Audio Critic) - http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf
And special thanks to Bruce Coppola for the links. He has a great page on audio wisdom here: http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/wisdom.html

:backtotop


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Ah, thank you - hard truth often seem not well accepted in the audiophile world. You can betcher buns off that if someone has spent into the high 4 and 5 figures on equipment, they are going to convince themselves they hear a difference, regardless. Of course, I am assuming we are not talking about a $30 amp from the flea market.

Not to mention - a lot of the audio\video-phile rags exist to sell ads, and they will NOT run articles contrary to a big advertiser's position. I know, I have bought ads in the software business in some of the big well known publications, and they have absolutely slanted content in my favor in direct proportion to my spending.



oenophile said:


> :soapbox:
> Apologies for off topic post...
> 
> but I can't let this pass; this isn't right with respect to amplifiers and receivers, given equivalent speakers. (I won't argue much that the speakers do matter; but this post (I thought) was more about receivers/amplifiers.) Leaving this unchallenged is bad for newbies to see. This isn't quite as bad as the "expensive cables" lie, but it is close.
> ...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

oenophile said:


> There are plenty of articles from reputable publications showing that very very experienced experts can't tell the difference between a $20k amplifier and a $2k amplifier.


...and most of those publications are full of $2K amp advertising no doubt. 

Needless to say, I disagree....not so much on the basic premise that there is no difference between the 2 units (other than price), rather, that this statement is oversimplified and misleading. A few points:

1) An A/V receiver's performance is only as good as its environment (cables, power, speakers, etc). Unless you compare units in real-world identical environments with identical listeners and proper configurations as recommended by each manufacturer, you won't even begin to get a reasonable comparison.

2) There are *substantial* differences in the internal electrical component, hardware, and build qualities between a $20K and $2K device of almost any kind. That's the #1 reason there *IS* a cost difference).

3) The long term durablility of a $20K device *tends to be *much better than the $2K device. That is typically a result of #2 above.

4) Since each listener hears things uniquely to them, the comparison studies that have been done are subjective in many cases. Even when frequencies are scientifically measured, everyone's ears hear things a bit differently. These studies are a good general measure of performance, but by no means what any particular single person might experience in their own (usually different than the test) environment.

It might be more accurate to say that the gap between a $20K and a $2K unit is not as large in performance as the price difference....I'd give you than one...


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Oh, and God bless you for that audiocritic pdf - I have been searching and searching for a well laid out "executive summary" of those very topics for ages, rather than sending people off to various exotic and hard to understand sources.



oenophile said:


> :soapbox:
> Apologies for off topic post...
> 
> but I can't let this pass; this isn't right with respect to amplifiers and receivers, given equivalent speakers. (I won't argue much that the speakers do matter; but this post (I thought) was more about receivers/amplifiers.) Leaving this unchallenged is bad for newbies to see. This isn't quite as bad as the "expensive cables" lie, but it is close.
> ...


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

The substantial price difference is indeed in the quality of the inner makings. It is also substantially driven by the marketing budget (again, I have inside knowledge on this one). That nameplate costs you X% just for the name. That higher price will buy you more features, it will buy you perhaps a greater lifespan, and it will pay for a longer warranty. It also pays for licensing fees (DolbyDigital for one) What it doesn't buy you is a audio difference anyone will truly notice. Again, my caveat is that we have established a floor here - no $30 flea market amps from Taiwan..... There are many reasons to buy more than a basic $300 amp, but the modulated analog current they lay out on that wire going to drive your speaker cone is the same - it is what the source told the amp to, well, amp.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and most of those publications are full of $2K amp advertising no doubt.
> 
> Needless to say, I disagree....not so much on the basic premise that there is no difference between the 2 units (other than price), rather, that this statement is oversimplified and misleading. A few points:
> 
> ...


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

oenophile said:


> :soapbox:
> Apologies for off topic post...
> 
> but I can't let this pass; this isn't right with respect to amplifiers and receivers, given equivalent speakers. (I won't argue much that the speakers do matter; but this post (I thought) was more about receivers/amplifiers.) Leaving this unchallenged is bad for newbies to see. This isn't quite as bad as the "expensive cables" lie, but it is close.
> ...


Well, sorry to make you get into a rant, but that's not what I was talking about. I was referring mainly to speakers and yes, there is a difference between speakers. Now, I did mention receivers and yes, there's a difference in those too. I never said a $20,000 amp will sound better than a $2,000 amp (necessarily), but if you hook up a Denon receiver to a set of speakers and a Sony receiver to a set of speakers (for example), they don't sound exactly alike (espcially their lower models). Sony's are usually a little brighter (which is why, although I love Klipsch, I don't like them paired with a Sony receiver). There's a difference. There might not be a bid difference. There might not even be a difference between all of them (there isn't), but to say that all receivers are the same, is an even worse statement (or that all $1000 receivers are the same as $5000 receivers).

The point I was addressing was that you can be blindfolded and tell the difference between equipment. Especially in lower end equipment. You might be right in your example of a $2000 receiver vs. a $20,000 receiver, because once you get to that level, it's more about the features and not the sound. There is, however, a big difference between receivers that cost less than $1000. You can tell the difference between speakers very easily and while it's harder, you can also tell the difference between some receivers - they just sound a bit different. That's not debatable (no matter how hard you might try).

Also, just an FYI, but both of your links are referencing articles that are over 7 years old. There's been a few changes in the receiver world in the last 7 years. While a good portion of those articles may still be true, the differences from one receiver to another in terms processing alone (analog to digital, IIx, etc.) and the type of DAC used, can vary greatly in the sub $1500 category. A lot of these differences didn't even exist 7 years ago.


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## richlife (Dec 4, 2006)

I've read all the posts to this point, find that the one quoted below gives the best advice for the OP given his present situation. But the number one issue is that his existing $60 system is unlikely to have the power or the i/o that is needed for improvement on a component by component basis. But I also don't think the HTIB dollar limit he is imposing will provide much, if any, improvement. If he bought a decent HDTV (I don't believe he identified which one he has) then the sound quality from that probaby exceeds his $60 system or the HTIB limit he imposed.

So, OP, you say you're saving for BluRay or HD DVD. Why bother with that if you will have such poor sound that you won't get the benefit? DirecTV gives you enough HD tv and HD movies, that I think you should focus on a better HTIB -- one with decent speakers that can be upgraded with a separate AV receiver when you can afford it. Keep in mind that your speakers ideally should be matched (when sold in sets, they normally are) otherwise you will lose sound quality. So focus on the speakers, improve with an AV receiver, improve your center and sub when/if you can, then work on improving the system one component at a time including the HD DVD.

If you really want to get truly good sound (sound that will justify what HD DVD and even the best of DirecTV provide), you have a lot to learn about sound systems and how they work. While you are saving your dollars, spend some time researching sound equipment which will show you why you're getting such varying responses to this (apparently) simple question. It sounds like you're in the same situation I and many others once were -- you don't have the money to just buy the best. So if you want quality sound, you need to learn what it takes to get it so you can do it with the funds you have available. (Back in the old days, I built all of my own quality components including the speakers and receiver. Otherwise I would have been stuck with the el cheapo Radio Shack since we didn't have Walmart in those days.)



spartanstew said:


> I don't think so. IMO, don't buy anything. Make do with your $60 system for now. When you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 speaker system (like the Klipsch Quintets). Then, when you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 receiver. Then buy a $300 or so subwoofer.
> 
> If you spend $200 - $300 now on a HTIB, I think you'll be wasting your money. Now, if you didn't have anything, I'd say go ahead and give it a try, but since you already have a system (even if it's only a $60 system), you're better off waiting awhile and building your system, instead of totally replacing components every year or so.


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## cwdonahue (Jun 6, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...
> 
> It might be more accurate to say that the gap between a $20K and a $2K unit is not as large in performance as the price difference....I'd give you than one...


That's been my experience as I've upgraded one system and bought/upgraded a second system in the past 11 years. The $$ spent to purchase "middle of the line" products vs. "bottom of the line" yield more improvement per $$ than going from middle to top of the line. I've added some higher end pieces and I've seen improvements, but they are smaller steps. However, I bought the higher end stuff for features and capabilities, not just sound. I went the separate preamp/processor and amplifier route so I won't have to repurchase amplification (which you do with receivers) when sound formats change over time. You also get software upgradeability, too. This will make the transition to the new HD sound formats with Blu-ray/HD-DVD focused on processing only, whenever I decide to pull the trigger. The products aren't their yet in my opinion and I'm still not happy about buying into yet another format war.

Meanwhile, back to the orignal post...

If you have to go the HTIB route, then try and purchase a system with a receiver (or receiver/DVD player combo) that can carry you forward to the Blu-ray/HD DVD player you'd like to purchase in the future and will handle a better set of speakers. So, make sure you have enough inputs, the right inputs, and enough amplification (How much is enough? Well, how about 40W per channel?) to move up to a middle of the line player and speaker setup. This is an outside-in upgrade strategy...replace the items connected to the receiver and then the receiver itself.
Speakers and a good subwoofer will make a bigger difference than just about anything else in what you hear, so make sure you can handle that step. Otherwise, as has been mentioned before, you keep repurchasing HTIBs and never get to focus your upgrade investments "one piece at a time".

So, learn about what you would like to have as your "goal system" and then save up the $$ to purchase a "getting started system" that can get you there without requiring a "start over system" in the middle! Lots of websites and magazines out there for you to look at, but you'll be happier in the end if you take some time now to learn and save. I am the voice of experience on this one...trust me. Purchased a low-end receiver and had to buy a "starting over" receiver to correct my mistake.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

The differences you mention are in decoders and processors. Laws pf physics don't change - at normalized output, you won't really hear an audible difference unless the receiver\amp is _intentionally_ coloring its output.



spartanstew said:


> Well, sorry to make you get into a rant, but that's not what I was talking about. I was referring mainly to speakers and yes, there is a difference between speakers. Now, I did mention receivers and yes, there's a difference in those too. I never said a $20,000 amp will sound better than a $2,000 amp (necessarily), but if you hook up a Denon receiver to a set of speakers and a Sony receiver to a set of speakers (for example), they don't sound exactly alike (espcially their lower models). Sony's are usually a little brighter (which is why, although I love Klipsch, I don't like them paired with a Sony receiver). There's a difference. There might not be a bid difference. There might not even be a difference between all of them (there isn't), but to say that all receivers are the same, is an even worse statement (or that all $1000 receivers are the same as $5000 receivers).
> 
> The point I was addressing was that you can be blindfolded and tell the difference between equipment. Especially in lower end equipment. You might be right in your example of a $2000 receiver vs. a $20,000 receiver, because once you get to that level, it's more about the features and not the sound. There is, however, a big difference between receivers that cost less than $1000. You can tell the difference between speakers very easily and while it's harder, you can also tell the difference between some receivers - they just sound a bit different. That's not debatable (no matter how hard you might try).
> 
> Also, just an FYI, but both of your links are referencing articles that are over 7 years old. There's been a few changes in the receiver world in the last 7 years. While a good portion of those articles may still be true, the differences from one receiver to another in terms processing alone (analog to digital, IIx, etc.) and the type of DAC used, can vary greatly in the sub $1500 category. A lot of these differences didn't even exist 7 years ago.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 2) There are *substantial* differences in the internal electrical component, hardware, and build qualities between a $20K and $2K device of almost any kind. That's the #1 reason there *IS* a cost difference).


Oh yes, no doubt. "Build quality" meaning, mainly, how heavy they are. So if you want something hard to lift, be sure to invest that extra $18,000.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Without any malice whatsoever to either party, that was just plain funny :lol:



GregLee said:


> Oh yes, no doubt. "Build quality" meaning, mainly, how heavy they are. So if you want something hard to lift, be sure to invest that extra $18,000.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

JeffBowser said:


> Without any malice whatsoever to either party, that was just plain funny :lol:


None taken.

But actually....the point was obviously missed. By the way, my unit *IS* heavy.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

:lol: Takes a lot to drive serious current - a quality amp will have big caps, big transformers, big SRD's, big heat sinks; big big big = heavy heavy heavy.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> None taken.
> 
> But actually....the point was obviously missed. By the way, my unit *IS* heavy.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

cwdonahue said:


> Well, how about 40W per channel?)


40? geez I wouldn't even bother to install something that small... got to remember that in surround sound most of your audio comes from one speaker (center) at a time... I am so glad I bought the one I have (1000w total/ 130 per channel) any less and I'd have it maxed out all the time... 
P.S. whole setup cost 450$...


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

40w is on the small side, but watch how it is rated - you want RMS wattage, 8 ohm driven, per channel, ideally at less than .1% THD across the audible range. Of course, your cheaper amps will rate gross wattage, a .7%, at 1Khz. All that geek-speak aside, as it has been pointed out here a few times - establish your budget FIRST, and get what you can.


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## Toddwrtr (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds like you have a modest budget.

Yamaha seems to have the most bang for the buck. That is what I have now (receiver and speakers).

My second choice would be Pioneer for the receiver, and Yamaha speakers.

My last receiver was a Sony, and it sounded awful. Had a Pioneer before that, and it sounded wonderful.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I've had Sonys for years, mine sounded terrific, but now we are just descending into opinion. I don't know anything about Yamaha, other than a million years ago I had a proprietary surround getup of theirs that suffered mainly from a lack of power. Pioneer is a fine beginning receiver brand. Again, opinion here.



Toddwrtr said:


> Sounds like you have a modest budget.
> 
> Yamaha seems to have the most bang for the buck. That is what I have now (receiver and speakers).
> 
> ...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

JeffBowser said:


> :lol: Takes a lot to drive serious current - a quality amp will have big caps, big transformers, big SRD's, big heat sinks; big big big = heavy heavy heavy.


Mine weighs 48.5 pounds.

Yup...my Amp pulls a fair amount of juice (11Amps)...even though it supposedly "green". I get a kick out of that term...not sure it really has alot of merit in many cases. I guess at 200W per channel (7.1 THX rated), that's not too bad.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Now that's a sweet amp, I don't care what name tag is glued to the box - 200watts THX rated, and nearly 50lbs, yup, I'll take one 'o dem 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Mine weighs 48.5 pounds.
> 
> Yup...my Amp pulls a fair amount of juice (11Amps)...even though it supposedly "green". I get a kick out of that term...not sure it really has alot of merit in many cases. I guess at 200W per channel (7.1 THX rated), that's not too bad.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Mine weighs 48.5 pounds.
> 
> Yup...my Amp pulls a fair amount of juice (11Amps)...even though it supposedly "green". I get a kick out of that term...not sure it really has alot of merit in many cases. I guess at 200W per channel (7.1 THX rated), that's not too bad.


"Green" refers to standby power...
And don't forget generates alot of heat :eek2:


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

JeffBowser said:


> 40w is on the small side, but watch how it is rated - you want RMS wattage, 8 ohm driven, per channel, ideally at less than .1% THD across the audible range. Of course, your cheaper amps will rate gross wattage, a .7%, at 1Khz.


The Sony HT-DDW790, the system of interest, is rated at 800W gross wattage driving 6 ohms at less than 10% THD at 1KHz. Some reviewers have remarked that it seems underpowered. But its street price is $170 at most, and I saw that one person claimed to have paid less than $100 at Fry's.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

6ohms at 10% is indicative of a grossly inflated wattage rating. Acceptible (read "inaudible") distortion should be less than .1% across 20hz - 20Khz not 10% at 1Khz. It does not say anywhere what its RMS rating is. I'd look away from this one, unless you have a small room, or don't need a lot of volume.

Here - this is the real story behind that box: Stereo mode (rated) (6 ohms 1 kHz, THD 1%) 85 W + 85 W see: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/htib/sony-ht-ddw790


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

[email protected] good to go


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

JeffBowser said:


> Now that's a sweet amp, I don't care what name tag is glued to the box - 200watts THX rated, and nearly 50lbs, yup, I'll take one 'o dem


The top of the line Onkyo...


houskamp said:


> "Green" refers to standby power...
> And don't forget generates alot of heat :eek2:


I have to heat my home somehow, right? :lol:


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## Shield (Dec 24, 2007)

Malo83 said:


> PIONEER Elite receivers for me
> What is your budget? all the DTV receivers will work with just about anything.


Pioneer Elite are excellent receivers; even their lower end stuff is really good. I use the latter along with a high end 7.1 Marantz, and to be honest, I prefer the Pioneer.

Of course I have a 17 month old and rarely get to "crank" it anymore...

Cool thing about Pioneer is they support WMA Pro 9...


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## Maverickster (Sep 20, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I don't think so. IMO, don't buy anything. Make do with your $60 system for now. When you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 speaker system (like the Klipsch Quintets). Then, when you can afford it, buy a $300 - $500 receiver. Then buy a $300 or so subwoofer.
> 
> If you spend $200 - $300 now on a HTIB, I think you'll be wasting your money. Now, if you didn't have anything, I'd say go ahead and give it a try, but since you already have a system (even if it's only a $60 system), you're better off waiting awhile and building your system, instead of totally replacing components every year or so.


Amen to this. Save your money until you can afford a respectable entry level system (as described by Spartan Stew). Also, Audiogon, AVS Forum Marketplace, and eBay are good sources for used speakers. You don't need to spend thousands, but you will probably end up spending right around $1K if you do it "right". I have a nice entry-level system, and here's what I got:

Receiver: Harman-Kardon AVR 347 ($400 on a Amazon Special)
Speakers L/C/R: Paradigm Cinema 110s ($300 on Audiogon)
Speakers Surrounds: Paradigm Cinema ADPs ($90 on eBay)
Sub: SVS PB12-ISD ($300 on AVS Forum Marketplace)
Cabling: Monoprice

Like anything else, I could have spent quite a bit more and gotten a better system, but the difference would probably have been largely lost on me. The differences between a system like this and even a very good HTiB, though, are dramatic enough to be worth the upgrade, imho. And, yes, a good receiver, good speakers, and a good sub do, in fact, make a world of difference in the experience -- even to non-audiophiles like myself.


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## cwdonahue (Jun 6, 2007)

JeffBowser said:


> 40w is on the small side, but watch how it is rated - you want RMS wattage, 8 ohm driven, per channel, ideally at less than .1% THD across the audible range. Of course, your cheaper amps will rate gross wattage, a .7%, at 1Khz. All that geek-speak aside, as it has been pointed out here a few times - establish your budget FIRST, and get what you can.


I came up with 40W because it's probably the least amount of power you can apply to a decent speaker. I do have some experience with that, too. I was considering the intent to stay in the HTIB category and assumed a low budget = low power. I would assume the HTIB vendor will match the sensitivity of their speakers to the receiver output power to get the most sound per Watt out of the speaker. Should have stated RMS, all channels driven at 8 OHMs, etc. as other qualifiers. You're right. Power ratings can be in the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" category. 6 OHMs is a favorite way to quote power ratings and make them look better.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

armophob said:


> Agreed, but that still does not move Bose out of targeted cheap jabs. For the OP, there are endless less expensive solutions instead of Bose now a days. Some of us just love the chance to poke fun when it presents the opportunity. Well mostly me anyhow.


Bose: overpriced and underperforming.

Onkyo 605 with HDMI switching works fine for me, as have my prior two Onkyo receivers.


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## njeske (Apr 25, 2007)

houskamp said:


> love my Onkyo
> also buy BIG.. you can't have too much power in surround sound..


just got an Onkyo TX-SR705 and it's great!


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## mtsz52784 (Jun 27, 2006)

Personally I love mine... http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs...10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665089040

It has 2 HDMI input and 3 Component input. This kicks out some really nice power. All black and the speakers are really nice size at 6x4 in. Also the addition of a 2nd zone to listen to music outside with the outdoor rock speakers is really nice. Nice power, nice price, and DirecTV remote can control this.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

OK, I see that you are not a babe-in-the-woods with this, so I'll bow out now. It really bugs me to see people taken in by bogus advertising claims, and I'll hammer relentlessly until I get through on that point :lol:



cwdonahue said:


> I came up with 40W because it's probably the least amount of power you can apply to a decent speaker. I do have some experience with that, too. I was considering the intent to stay in the HTIB category and assumed a low budget = low power. I would assume the HTIB vendor will match the sensitivity of their speakers to the receiver output power to get the most sound per Watt out of the speaker. Should have stated RMS, all channels driven at 8 OHMs, etc. as other qualifiers. You're right. Power ratings can be in the "lies, damn lies, and statistics" category. 6 OHMs is a favorite way to quote power ratings and make them look better.


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## jpitlick (Apr 19, 2007)

njeske said:


> just got an Onkyo TX-SR705 and it's great!


What remote are you using to control your DirecTV and Onkyo receivers? I just got a TX-SR605. I programmed the Onkyo remote to control the DirecTV box (HR20-700), but I prefer the DirecTV remote, but two of the Onkyo codes only turn off the receiver and one only turns on the receiver. No codes do both. Anyone have any ideas, short of getting a Harmony or another universal remote?


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## rjdude (Mar 9, 2005)

braven said:


> I'd never use anything but Denon for my A/V receiver needs. Just my opinion though.


I just switched to my first Denon A/V and it's amazing. I'm still using my older speakers and will switch them out later after I pay-off the Denon. This A/V has multiple HDMI inputs and the one HDMI to the HDTV; I eliminated more than half of the wiring.


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## kgirls (Nov 5, 2007)

a Sony HT-SF2000 which has 3 HDMI inputs (one for my PS3/Blu-ray, one for my DirecTV HR-20-100 and one for my HD-camcorder).

Give great 5.1 surround sound and is programmable with the Directv remote control.


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## kgirls (Nov 5, 2007)

a Sony HT-SF2000 which has 3 HDMI inputs (one for my PS3/Blu-ray, one for my DirecTV HR-20-100 and one for my HD-camcorder).

Give great 5.1 surround sound and is programmable with the Directv remote control.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

rjdude said:


> I just switched to my first Denon A/V and it's amazing. I'm still using my older speakers and will switch them out later after I pay-off the Denon. This A/V has multiple HDMI inputs and the one HDMI to the HDTV; I eliminated more than half of the wiring.


Congratulations. Wise choice indeed.


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## sarfdawg (Jan 21, 2007)

I'm looking for the same thing as the OP, for the most part. I have speakers that are in great shape, but they are the old-school (ten years old or so) huge speakers that act as furniture unto themselves. I would be willing to punt them for a smaller HTIB situation. Surround sound is a great thing, but I'm not nearly the stickler to that as I am about my video...

I have a 1080p TV, and I either need an A/V receiver that will allow me to use my HR20, my 1st-generation Xbox 360 (i.e. not HDMI, only component), and (soon) a PS3. I thought I saw a relatively inexpensive receiver that allowed you to plug that stuff in, and it would upconvert everything to 1080p. Did I just dream that one? I can't find it now for the life of me. Any advice there?

What does HDMI "pass through" mean? 

BTW, I'm probably not wanting to go more than $500 out the door. 

Thanks!


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## pacjag (Apr 10, 2007)

I just bought and installed this one from Sony:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=HTDDW995

Pass-thru means the video signal is passed through without modification.

Sony has another unit with 3 HDMI inputs and I would have gotten it but there
were no other inputs and I had trouble getting HDMI to work between my
previous HR20-700 and my Sony rear-projection TV. As it turns out the HDMI
works great with the HT-DDW995.

I got it here along with a SONY upconvert DVD player which sits on top of it and
matches perfectly:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...DW995_HT_DDW995_5_1_Channel_Home_Theater.html


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

pacjag said:


> I got it here along with a SONY upconvert DVD player which sits on top of it and
> matches perfectly:


Why would you buy an upconverting DVD player when you could probably get an HD-DVD player for about the same price? Even if HD-DVD tanks, they're still great upconverting players.


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## pacjag (Apr 10, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Why would you buy an upconverting DVD player when you could probably get an HD-DVD player for about the same price? Even if HD-DVD tanks, they're still great upconverting players.


At this point in time it was a matter of simplicity of operation and price. I didn't
really even need the one I got because I have a PS3 connected but I wanted
something that my wife could operate easily. And, no, I doubt I could have gotten
an HD or Blu-Ray, much less a dual-format unit which is what I really wanted, for
the $80 I spent on this one.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

pacjag said:


> At this point in time it was a matter of simplicity of operation and price. I didn't
> really even need the one I got because I have a PS3 connected but I wanted
> something that my wife could operate easily. And, no, I doubt I could have gotten
> an HD or Blu-Ray, much less a dual-format unit which is what I really wanted, for
> the $80 I spent on this one.


Maybe not $80, but I got my A2 for $100 and my brother just got his A3 for $115. They both do a better job of upconverting than an $80 Sony IMO (and I have an upconverting Sony too). They're also no harder to operate than any other DVD player. You turn it on, put the DVD in and hit play. Simple.


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## Cobra (Aug 9, 2006)

Hdhead said:


> I use a Yamaha and love it. Be sure to get one with component and/or HDMI switching for the greatest versatility. Always think forward to future add-ons so 2 years from now you don't kick yourself for skimping.


I also love my Yamaha system, beautiful sound, and run dvd and dtv receiver through it via optical and hdmi


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## cbeckner80 (Apr 19, 2006)

This is a great thread, reading all the different opinions (except for the Bose bashing). I have two older bose systems, I believe one is an older 501 and the other is the 701, one with three and one with two of the small speakers, and a sub woofer hooked to an Onkyo TX-SR705 and love all. 

As far as how different systems sound, I believe humans can only hear a certain range anyway, and as we get older (ugh) our range deminishes. 

So my Bose is sufficient for me at my moderatly advanced age.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

I've got an Onkyo TX-SR501 (6.1), Architech 5 1/4" in wall speakers (mounted in my ceiling), and a JBL 12" 150watt powered sub. I've got around $600-750 in the entire setup. I absolutely love my system and prefer it over many others that I have heard that cost 3 times as much. I guess my point is that you don't have to spend mega-bucks to get great sound.

I recommend that you go ahead and get a decent receiver, and build around it as you get more money.


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## kikkenit2 (Oct 26, 2006)

TigersFanJJ said:


> I've got an Onkyo TX-SR501 (6.1), Architech 5 1/4" in wall speakers (mounted in my ceiling), and a JBL 12" 150watt powered sub. I've got around $600-750 in the entire setup. I absolutely love my system and prefer it over many others that I have heard that cost 3 times as much. I guess my point is that you don't have to spend mega-bucks to get great sound.
> 
> I recommend that you go ahead and get a decent receiver, and build around it as you get more money.


After 5 years of reading avsforum and buying several receivers I totally agree with this guy. This system blows away even the best HTIB. Check out the Onkyo 505 from last year for $180 @ accessories4less.com. Has 2 hdmi/3 component hd inputs and 4 digital audio inputs. For $350 free shipping, cosmetic refurb. this years 605 receiver is lots better because of full 1080P video input and better video enhancement. It also has xm and sirius inputs.

For speakers not familiar with Architech but for great sounding bookshelf speakers check out the x-ls encore monitors @av123.com for $300 pr. The wood veneer for $50 extra is tempting. They have a matching sub $200 and center $200 that you could add later. Also highly rated are M2V2 @axiomaudio.com for $300. And Intimus 422-lr sat. $200pr. or 532-lr bookshelf for $360 from aperionaudio.com. My favorites are from ascendacoustics.com $330 pr. Even built right here in SoCal. They are ugly though. Paradigm, PSB, and Mirage are probably a little more expensive but well worth it.

Get a subwoofer. Soon! 8" will work for an apartment. Starting @$300 and up to $1000 hsuresearch.com is the best made and top rated. Starting @$430 and up to $1700 svsound.com is their main competition for best value in subwoofer. Eventually put any of this equipment together for a much improved sound over HTIB and Bose 123 or whater it is for close to the same price.


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## sarfdawg (Jan 21, 2007)

kikkenit2 said:


> After 5 years of reading avsforum and buying several receivers I totally agree with this guy. This system blows away even the best HTIB. Check out the Onkyo 505 from last year for $180 @ accessories4less.com. Has 2 hdmi/3 component hd inputs and 4 digital audio inputs. For $350 free shipping, cosmetic refurb. this years 605 receiver is lots better because of full 1080P video input and better video enhancement. It also has xm and sirius inputs.
> 
> For speakers not familiar with Architech but for great sounding bookshelf speakers check out the x-ls encore monitors @av123.com for $300 pr. The wood veneer for $50 extra is tempting. They have a matching sub $200 and center $200 that you could add later. Also highly rated are M2V2 @axiomaudio.com for $300. And Intimus 422-lr sat. $200pr. or 532-lr bookshelf for $360 from aperionaudio.com. My favorites are from ascendacoustics.com $330 pr. Even built right here in SoCal. They are ugly though. Paradigm, PSB, and Mirage are probably a little more expensive but well worth it.
> 
> Get a subwoofer. Soon! 8" will work for an apartment. Starting @$300 and up to $1000 hsuresearch.com is the best made and top rated. Starting @$430 and up to $1700 svsound.com is their main competition for best value in subwoofer. Eventually put any of this equipment together for a much improved sound over HTIB and Bose 123 or whater it is for close to the same price.


Will the Onkyo 605 upconvert video to 1080p? Does that feature exist anywhere, or am I dreaming?


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

kikkenit2 said:


> For speakers not familiar with Architech


Here is a link to the speakers that I have. They are in wall speakers so they do require a little work fishing wires and such. I had it easy as I went ahead and wired the walls and attic for HT when I had the house built last year.

The wattage seems a little low, but they handle everything that my Onkyo has thrown at them (too bad some of the pictures on the wall hasn't from the sub,  ). These speakers don't have jaw dropping lows (what 5 1/4s do?) but that is what the sub is for anyway. The lifetime warranty on these is almost as nice as the $50/pair price. My opinion is that you will be hard pressed to find another set of speakers anywhere close to this price that perform as well as they do.

DISCLAIMER: The website I linked may be a great company, but I've never dealt with them, so I don't know. I only linked them to show the speakers, specs, and an idea of what you can expect to spend on this set of speakers.

EDIT: That site doesn't show or mention it, but they do come with speaker grills that (I believe) are paintable.


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## techntrek (Apr 26, 2007)

If you are looking for good deals, make sure to check out Amazon's Warehouse Deals. http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF&me=A2L77EE7U53NWQ
Use this link and not the one you find in Google (http://www.warehousedeals.com) because for some reason they show far fewer things available if you go to the warehousedeals address. Go to the site and search for "Onkyo".

When I bought my Onkyo 575 last month it was going anywhere from the low $300's to upper $300's both online and in-store. I got mine for $250, shipped. Its now $236.


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## kikkenit2 (Oct 26, 2006)

sarfdawg said:


> Will the Onkyo 605 upconvert video to 1080p? Does that feature exist anywhere, or am I dreaming?


Yes it will and improve some video resolution. The Onkyo 875 and above has an even better quality hd/sd enhancement chip. They both also have hdmi 1.3 hardware.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

**sigh** Ya'll know the OP bowed out of this over a month ago. Just thought I would mention it.


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## PhatHD (Oct 28, 2007)

Samsung DVD Home Theater System Model HT-TX70 or HT-TX75 rocks for the buck. Awesome power, good inputs and outputs.
Word of warning stay away from wireless speakers in my opinion, I had a Panasonic Home Theater System with rear wireless speakers and I gave it away, poor volume.


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## TigersFanJJ (Feb 17, 2006)

armophob said:


> **sigh** Ya'll know the OP bowed out of this over a month ago. Just thought I would mention it.


Yes, but the subject had gotten brought up again by sarfdawg, who said:



> I'm looking for the same thing as the OP, for the most part. I have speakers that are in great shape, but they are the old-school (ten years old or so) huge speakers that act as furniture unto themselves. I would be willing to punt them for a smaller HTIB situation.


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## brianp6621 (Jun 13, 2007)

kikkenit2 said:


> Yes it will and improve some video resolution. The Onkyo 875 and above has an even better quality hd/sd enhancement chip. They both also have hdmi 1.3 hardware.


Just a correction, the 605/705/805 do NOT upconvert to 1080P. Only 720P


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

brianp6621 said:


> Just a correction, the 605/705/805 do NOT upconvert to 1080P. Only 720P


Don't confuse upconverting with upscaling. Upconvert just means they will show up on your 1080p TV. Upscale means they actually improve the picture quality.


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## Stealth87 (Jan 10, 2008)

kgirls said:


> a Sony HT-SF2000 which has 3 HDMI inputs (one for my PS3/Blu-ray, one for my DirecTV HR-20-100 and one for my HD-camcorder).
> 
> Give great 5.1 surround sound and is programmable with the Directv remote control.


I have the same system. How does it do when switching from HD to SD and vice versa? I still have a HD cable box hooked up and it takes about 10 seconds to switch. I've been wondering how it does with a D* receiver. I'm using HDMI.


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## randyk47 (Aug 21, 2006)

I have a small "United Nations" of AV. It's a little Sony, Yamaha, and Pioneer for HTR's. TV's are either Sony or Samsung. It's Sansui (old model but still the best towers I've ever had) Bose, Boston, and Infinity for speakers. DVD players, VCRs and CD players are all Sony or Toshiba. On the whole I like my Yamaha the best but that's in my theater and that's where the best speakers, DVD players, etc., are installed. While it's still pretty good I'm the least fond of the Pioneer. It powers a Bose speaker system which I also don't particularly care for but it's a matter of space for the setup and nothing else fits. It's also the least used/watched system and has pretty much been reduced to only being on when we're getting ready for work and watching news or for powering the outdoor speakers on the patio during the summer.


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## sarfdawg (Jan 21, 2007)

joed32 said:


> Don't confuse upconverting with upscaling. Upconvert just means they will show up on your 1080p TV. Upscale means they actually improve the picture quality.


Yes, and I have come to find out from calling Onkyo tech support directly, the only two models that Onkyo makes that UPSCALE to 1080p are the TX SR 875 and the TX NR 905. Both models are in excess of $1000. I will just have to be satisfied with improving the audio situation and not the video.

I have a circa 2000 Sony A/V receiver, and now I'm starting to get the intermittent lapses into "protector" mode for no particular reason. I have disconnected and rerun the speaker cables, but to no avail. I thought I had gotten a handle on it, but as of this morning, it reared it's ugly head again. Time to begin the search again.

Thanks again all.


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## Toddwrtr (Oct 4, 2007)

If you are looking for an inexpensive but good-sounding HTR solution, Yamaha makes pretty darn good receivers and speakers.


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## sarfdawg (Jan 21, 2007)

Toddwrtr said:


> If you are looking for an inexpensive but good-sounding HTR solution, Yamaha makes pretty darn good receivers and speakers.


I'm hearing this more and more. I had my heart set that I was buying an Onkyo, but I could definitely be swayed...just like I had my heart set on buying a Samsung HDTV, and lo and behold, I bought a Panasonic.


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