# Ask DBStalk:921 support forum? More like 921 bash and whining forum.



## fox200 (Mar 21, 2004)

I know I'm going to get it for this, but why is just about every thread posted here trashing the 921 and Dish Network? The receiver just is'nt that bad! The unit works pretty good. Does it have to be rebooted sometimes, yes, so what, it's a computer! I've had several computers, even with the latest technology, computers can freeze, crash, etc.
Dish was the first to come out with the hd pvr and it is half of what it cost for Direct's pvr.....the 942 even costs less..... what a deal! When mpeg4 hits, we'll get a deal again for an upgrade.
Don't care about name based, don't care about dishwire, most users don't. Are their any receivers with firewire? not Direct tv, not Comcast. Speaking of which, Comcast's pvr freezes up from time to time from what I've read in some of the other forums, gee what a surprise. Dish had some features that were not activated because of technical or legal issues. Did they not try?
Dish is the only provider that lets you subscribe without subscribing to a major package like top 60,120,etc. Most of what is on all those other channels are major network reruns. I get all the networks and pbs ota flawless with the 921. No drop outs no audio drops... perfect. I do however get drops from satellite. And yes, I know the 921's ota tuner is not as sensitive as the Samsung sir-t451, I have one and can see the difference....so what! I have an excellent antenna setup and works great.
So let's see....locals for guide data and CBS L.A., hdpak, Showtime, HBO and warranty on 2 receivers all for about $54 a month. The competition can't even come close.....what a deal! I am the poster subscriber and 921 user for Dish Network.
So to the whiners out there, including the ones that say their 921 reboots every two hours or they can't stop a manual recording (yea right), go waste your money with another provider and let's keep this forum a "921 support forum" I guess this thread is breaking the rules and will be moved.
Bring it on!

fox


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

You didn't break any rules at all.. and I see no reason why your post would be moved. I myself have a 921 that is mostly trouble-free as well.

Thanks for your post.. it is nice to see some positive comments!


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Let's see. If my 921 could reliably record when I set up a timer, if it could record two shows at the same time, if there weren't any zero second recordings, if it could recover from a PSIP change, if it could record one show after another on the same channel, and on and on, I'd be as happy as you are with your 921 and wouldn't need to express disappointment in the 921.

Just what would you like those of us who have these problems do? Not post about the problems? If we didn't post, the problems would never be fixed. Should we post how happy we are that the 921 isn't very reliable and doesn't perform it's most basic functionality? I assume you're so happy with your 921 that you will figure out a way to NOT receive the next software update.

Should the fact that Dish doesn't require a major package subscription mitigate all the 921 problems and excuse Dish from fixing these problems? Your post is very strange, to say the least.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

> Are their any receivers with firewire? not Direct tv, not Comcast.


Sorry, wrong. In fact, the cable providers are REQUIRED to provide such boxes - in July if I remember correctly.


> So to the whiners out there, including the ones that say their 921 reboots every two hours or they can't stop a manual recording (yea right),


Those are REAL problems that are NOT particularly rare. Just because you are lucky, don't 'dis those that are not.

In MY case, I'm one of the luckier ones. My early-model 921 has been reasonably stable - but EVERY software release "damages" it's function and/or reliability a little bit more.

I went through the DishPlayer fiasco and the 501 growing pains - this is MUCH worse.

You might notice that much of the whining is coming from people that KNOW just how BAD E* is doing - and treating us. Me, 35 years in the computer and telecom industry. I've seen some real crappy projects, designs, implementations, and support, and E* overall is the worst. Not the worst in any given category, but quite bad in ALL of them.

For example, you must not have played any CSR roulette yet.

BTW, I'm NOT your average user. I've been installing microwave catchers at least part-time for 10 years or so (yeah, the BUDs), and also am the office slug for a E* retailer. I've seen how the dealers are ripped off, too.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

fox200 said:


> So to the whiners out there, including the ones that say their 921 reboots every two hours or they can't stop a manual recording (yea right), go waste your money with another provider and let's keep this forum a "921 support forum"


Are you saying that you don't believe some individuals can't stop a manual recording? Do you think they are lying or something??

Do you understand the concept of a support forum? In a support forum, people detail their problems. Are you saying that they shouldn't do that because you think it is whining?



fox200 said:


> Bring it on!


What is your motivation? Why do you want start a fight?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The fact is that I've been letting most of the ranting and raving slide recently in the 921 support forum because the software is in a very unstable state. As soon as some of the really nasty bugs get fixed (hopefully in the next version), I'll be clamping down on it again. But, I recognize the fact that everyone needs to blow off some steam from time to time, and that the 921 causes a great deal of stress to a lot of users. So, I've been letting it go, for now.


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## paulrus (Sep 1, 2004)

Sorry fox but you sound like someone who's never actually TRIED anything else. It's easy to rave about how great peanut butter & jelly sandwiches are when you've never had a filet mignon.

I was sold a product that was billed to me as "functionally equivalent" to the HD-Tivo. Have you ever USED a Tivo? The difference between Tivo and the 921 is like the difference between shooting a bullet and throwing a bullet. They aren't even in the same class.

I'm happy the 921 is the best thing in the world for you. Ignorance is truly bliss. Just for your own happiness, don't EVER try a Tivo.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

SimpleSimon said:


> In MY case, I'm one of the luckier ones. My early-model 921 has been reasonably stable - but EVERY software release "damages" it's function and/or reliability a little bit more.
> 
> I went through the DishPlayer fiasco and the 501 growing pains - this is MUCH worse.


My situation has been fairly close to Simon's. The "Good News"? I don't miss nearly as many recordings as the Dishplayer used to. (When the Dishplayer burped, you totally lost the recording and it could not restart itself. When the 921 burps (with SD content at least) it reboots and starts recording again from that point on. This is great for SD content. Now..... HD burps are another story. When an HD recording burps, it usually results in a zero second recording. These ZSRs are just as bad as the Dishplayers original nightmares. They can usually be avoided by minimizing multiple and back to back timers. This past Thursday, the 8pm Smallville recorded fine, while the 9pm had a ZSR. OK, no prob I have a backup later in the evening when HDNet repeats the two episodes. Buzzzzzzz. First one recorded fine, second one had a ZSR again. Sigh..... I wound up downloading the second episode off of the internet and watched it on my computer monitor.

I agree that every subsequent release has been introducing more problems than they have been fixing for the last quarter. Supposedly another release is coming in Mid May... we'll see if this makes things any more stable.......


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## Larry Caldwell (Apr 4, 2005)

Jerry G said:


> Let's see. If my 921 could reliably record when I set up a timer, if it could record two shows at the same time, if there weren't any zero second recordings, if it could recover from a PSIP change, if it could record one show after another on the same channel, and on and on, I'd be as happy as you are with your 921 and wouldn't need to express disappointment in the 921.


I'm fairly new to the 921, but haven't seen the problems you describe. The timers seem to work fine, and it records two programs at the same time. Most reliably, the receiver has to be in standby, or you have to watch one of the two shows you are recording, which makes sense, since there are only two channels.

I have never seen a ZSR, but I'm keeping my eye out. I have no idea what a PSIP change is.

Recording one show after another, particularly when recording another channel, seems to require changing the default 1 minute/3 minute overrun, or the software will think there is no tuner available.

I have already learned that there are some buttons you just don't push on the remote, but with a little user skill the system is quite usable.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

fox200 said:


> Does it have to be rebooted sometimes, yes, so what, it's a computer! I've had several computers, even with the latest technology, computers can freeze, crash, etc.


You are correct that the 921 and all PVR/DVR's for that fact, are basically computers there's one major difference, E* controls all aspects of this box. With your standard Windows/Intel (or ADM) system at home, Microsoft is writing the software and it was to work on a number of different processors with different memory sizes, different mass storage units, different network adapters, different display drives. etc, you catching on? I believe that Microsoft did a study once on crashes and the majority of them were caused by drivers that were loaded on the system from other companies.

On the DVR's (D*, E*, cable companies), they control the entire box so they don't have to worry about incompatibilities, they don't have to worry about you connecting a 2nd 250GB harddrive and making it work. They don't have to worry about you trying to install the latest software program and making it work. They have total control and have no excuses when the box needs to be rebooted, it's their fault (no matter who it is).


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Also, my 921 is hooked up through a SW64 to a Dish500 dish and a Dish 300 dish (for 61.5). This may have something to do with my susceptibility to this bug, who knows.....


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Everyone here needs to realize that it is entirely possible that quite a few 921 owners aren't having problems. I'm glad that fox200 isn't having (m)any troubles, and he's got every right to say so.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Everyone here needs to realize that it is entirely possible that quite a few 921 owners aren't having problems. I'm glad that fox200 isn't having (m)any troubles, and he's got every right to say so.


I agree...for the fist 12 weeks my 921 was preaty much solid but that all came to and end.

One day without fault of mine it deleted everything on the HD and now its basicly useless as a DVR.

So if you have been lucky and your 921 is going strong without any major issues...great but just know that it could all come to a full stop at any moment and I imagine then you will be singing a different tune.

Cheers


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

My 921 is for the most pretty stable. I can't record 2 hd events from the satellite at the same time without having a ZSR result. I can record an ota hd channel and a sat hd channel with no problem. I hate it when I can't change from sd to hd without going through the menu to do it. I also hate it when it freezes in the stretched format. It takes way to long to do a power button or cord reboot. If it took a few seconds like the 522 , it wouldn't be so bad, but up to 3-4 minutes is ridiculous. 

I have learned how to delete a program when I have 2 timers recording at the same time. I just start the delete and the screen will pop up saying do you want to stop one recording or the other in order to delete one, and then I hit the sat power button. This puts the sat in standby and then when I turn it back on like 2 seconds later, the 2 recordings are still recording but the event I want deleted is gone. It works most of the time. 

I have been able to do what I want with the 921 most of the time like I did with my old 721 ( before the last update), but I will be trading it in next week when my new 942 comes in from Dishdepot. I have had the 921 for close to a year and I have gone through some bugs but I have to say this: It is in no way as bad as the origional dishplayer 7100/7200 dvrs. I hated the way that dishplayer turned out. I had high hopes for this receiver in 99 , but gave it up in 2000 after trading it in for rma 3 -4 times and having to pay each time for shipping and handeling. I eventually went for a plain old 301 from Dish in exchange for the crazy dishplayer 7100/7200. 

Either way I will be using the new 942 hopefully next week. I already know there will be bugs , but it will be new bugs and it will have name based recording, which I really like having used the 522 for 2 months now. I only hope the 942 will be more stable than the 921 has been. The 522 which it is based on has been pretty easy to use with no major problems so far. ( Knock on Wood) 

Good Luck to all who stay with the 921. I hope that Dish will do an upgrade progam for ya'll when the mpeg4 conversion starts. Hell , I hope Dish will do an upgrade program for me with the 942 too.:sure:


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## Bismarck (Sep 28, 2004)

I agree with some of Fox200's comments, although I've made several "bash and whining" posts myself, and for good reason! The 921 is a great idea poorly executed. Mark Lamutt's post in this thread would seem to confirm that thought.


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## Samich (Aug 12, 2004)

Fudge. I was just about to post how I'm OK with mine for the most part, and I just now got my first ever 692 error. Oh well. Other than that, mine runs good usually except for the stuck in stretch mode / inability to SD/HD switch happens a couple times a week. Quick (read: not really quick) reboot and I'm on my way.


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## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

When I first got the 921 I was it's #1 fan. I had never even seen a DVR before, and I thought this thing was the greatest gizmo ever. I was on a business trip during the first week of the Olympics, and I set my then brand new 921 to record all kinds of stuff - about 30 timers in all; a mix of HD and SD, OTA and Satellite, some overlapping. Every timer fired. About 50 hours of TV, including almost 15 hours of HD, recorded without a hitch. No ZSRs. No 692s. And this was with the significant other still at home using the 921 to watch TV.

As time went on, there were some quirks - and some real annoyances, but still no ZSRs, no lost programs, nothing "fatal".

Then came L211 - and my love affair with the 921 ended. 692 errors. Audio dropouts. Video dropouts. Phantom timer conflicts. Disappearing timers. Guide slowdowns. Missing Red Dots. Lockups. And on and on.

Two subsequent software updates, over a ridiculously, inexcusably long period of time - haven't done a thing to fix the damage that L211 did. 

So you wanna call me a 921 basher… go right ahead. I am. 

I paid $1000 for the privilege.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Um. What's the 692 error? It's probably something we've all seen and have called something else, but I'm just making sure I have another condition to watch out for.....


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

"You're not authorized to view this channel..." I believe.


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## JPC (Feb 8, 2005)

If that's what a 692 error is, then it's not exclusive to the 921; it popped up on my 510 over the weekend.


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## rcarmer (Oct 6, 2004)

If you had bought a car that had this many problems would you keep it? If you bought a refrigerator, a computer, a TV, a gameboy, a stereo or even a lousy radio, that had this many problems, that constantly fails to do what is advertised, and the manufacturer made and broke promise after promise, would you keep it? No, we would return the defective product to the place we bought it and get our money back.

I want my money back and that is not an option Dish will deal with. You bet people are upset. We have plenty to ***** about. In my case, the next release is Dish's final chance! I have been strung along for over a year and have almost $2k is their equipment, but I am totally fed up. ONE MORE RELEASE!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

rcarmer - you better give it 2 more, as the ZSR problem will only be partially fixed in the next release. I've said that several times in several threads now.


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## erh1117 (Feb 1, 2005)

If the ZSR problem is a two-part fix, I would like to konw two things: (1) why; and (2) when might one reasonably expect part 2?

Also, when will stretched AR finally be fixed?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Ed, the only answers I have for you are somewhat smartass ones...1) Because that's what it takes... and 2) As soon as they think it's ready. Probably early to mid summer, just based on my observations of how often things are getting released these days for the 921. 

But, on the other hand, I haven't seen my AR locked in stretch mode at all under the current beta, so maybe that one's squashed.


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## ClaudeR (Dec 7, 2003)

It doesn't completely suck, but "close" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades...

The box has potential _(it could get thrown out the window at any time)_

I wish the OTA tuner was better, I always keep minimum subs, so I was counting on OTA HD, but it isn't reliable enough.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Hey, no ZSRs on HDNet last night. I've been hit two weeks running before last night. (Thursday are heavy recording nights..... Two Smallvilles in HD back to back, SD recordings on NBC for Joey, Will and Grace, and ER, and then my backup recordings for Smallville at 11-1AM)


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## michaelL (Nov 30, 2004)

erh1117 said:


> If the ZSR problem is a two-part fix, I would like to konw two things: (1) why; and (2) when might one reasonably expect part 2?
> 
> Also, when will stretched AR finally be fixed?


While I know nothing about the reason for the ZSR problem, my guess it is a race condition (since it does not always happen).

Often there are multiple reasons a race condition can happen. My guess is the first release they will fix easier conditions, and on the second release they will fix the more complex conditions.

Mike


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

ZSRs are not the result of a timer not firing or anything. The timer does indeed fire, however, the tuner, for some reason, can't write to the disk. There appears, in some cases, to be some sort of file corruption associated with the table of contents on the disk. If you got your hard drive wiped clean, you will keep getting ZSRs until you have as many ZSRs on your disk as you had programs on your disk before your hard drive got wiped. Under those circumstances, it doesn't sound like a race condition.

The race condition is usually the result of multiple theads or processes trying to utilize a resource.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Neil Derryberry said:


> Everyone here needs to realize that it is entirely possible that quite a few 921 owners aren't having problems. I'm glad that fox200 isn't having (m)any troubles, and he's got every right to say so.


Of course he has a right to proclaim that his 921 works fine. I'm glad he has a 921 that is trouble free. But to condemn those who are dealing with severe problems that limit the 921's functionality is simple inane and worthy of scorn.

To fox200, I'll tell you what. Give me your trouble free 921 and take my very problematic 921. Then let's see you post the same thing that you did to start this thread. How about it? Do you have what it takes to take my deal? Didn't think so.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Larry Caldwell said:


> I'm fairly new to the 921, but haven't seen the problems you describe. The timers seem to work fine, and it records two programs at the same time. Most reliably, the receiver has to be in standby, or you have to watch one of the two shows you are recording, which makes sense, since there are only two channels.
> 
> Recording one show after another, particularly when recording another channel, seems to require changing the default 1 minute/3 minute overrun, or the software will think there is no tuner available.


I've always treated my 921 as if it were a very delicate and fragile thing. I have an 811 sitting next to it that I use for general viewing. I only use the 921 to record and watch recorded shows. The 921 is always in standby when it records. Yet it still has the ZSR's and missed recordings.

As far as recording one show after another, until the latest few software updates, it reliably was able to do this. The latest software updates took care of that useful feature in a very negative way. So, why shouldn't I expect the 921 to work as well as it did prior to the latest software updates?


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

What Jerry G said. 

As I've posted elsewhere, I sure wish I could block E* from screwing up my box any more than it already has.


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## astrotrf (Apr 5, 2004)

erh1117 said:


> If the ZSR problem is a two-part fix, I would like to konw two things: (1) why; and (2) when might one reasonably expect part 2?


There are a number of scenarios one could hypothesize, but educated guesses are free, so:

One possible reason is that the fix involves modifying the format of the on-disk database. The format gets modified in the first part along with some interim compatibility code, and the second part completes the modifications and installs the final new code. You could conceive of this kind of thing being necessary to preserve existing recordings, for example. But frankly, I think this level of sophistication is beyond the technical means of The Gang That Couldn't Code Straight.

There are two things about ZSRs to note: (1) they occur, and (2) if you mess with them, all of your recordings disappear.

A likely scenario (in the absence of any data) is that it's a two-part fix because they can fix item (2) but haven't figured out item (1) yet.

Oh, and if you're wondering why they don't just come clean and _tell_ us what's going on, it's probably because their lawyers don't want anyone to ever admit publicly that there might be something wrong with the code.

There are no "bug fixes", just "service improvements"! 

Terry


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

What do you mean by Messing with ZSRs will result in all you recordings disappearing. I have had a few ZSRs of which I have tried to view and then deleted and did not result in all my programs being erased. I know some have had this happen, but I would say one does not always lead to the other. 

As to the two stage fix.. It could be simple as one part of the fix is low risk the other is much higher risk and requires a longer test cycle to validate the fix. It also might be one of the fixes address the huge problem that may lead to full recording eraser and the other might be a edge condition that they want to wait to add so they can monitor the progress of the first. Also possible they have a fix for one and are working on the fix for the other like previously mentioned. All this is speculation ofcourse.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> What do you mean by Messing with ZSRs will result in all you recordings disappearing. I have had a few ZSRs of which I have tried to view and then deleted and did not result in all my programs being erased. I know some have had this happen, but I would say one does not always lead to the other.


Ron,

I've had several ZSR's over a period of time. I've documented and reported some of them. They do cause enough corruption that when you try and view them, the other DVR events disappear. I'm sure that different things can occur and the, "wipe" is just one of of those things.

It sounds like your 921 is another exception to the rule. Having two 921's, I have only been experiencing the ZSR's on my HEED. I've swapped switch cables, etc. from one 921 to the other thinking that might be a root problem but it proves me wrong.

John


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Never said mine was the exception.  I have had my share of issues. but also a lot of people have reported ZSRs while a small percentage of the people reporting ZSRs have reported all recorderd program loss. That was my point that if having and trying to view or delete a ZSR does not necessarly mean you will loose all your recordered shows. 

The fact that you can in some cases would make this defect in my world a critical 1 Showstopper defect. 

I was trying to get clarification on the word "messing" to see if there is known way to loose all your shows so I can avoid it.


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## boylehome (Jul 16, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> I was trying to get clarification on the word "messing" to see if there is known way to loose all your shows so I can avoid it.


One could assume that it is trying to view the ZSR and then having to reboot to get the 921 to work again. That is what my definition of, "messing" is.


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