# Why do we tolerate the DTV contract?



## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

I sent DirecTV an e-mail yesterday asking if I could try out their service without a contract. After all, I already have a 5 LNB dish, and already have the cabling in the walls. Virtually no installation is necessary. Basically I just need to attach a receiver and activate the service.

Instead they want to do this:

1) Charge me an up-front fee for the HR-20.
2) Charge me a monthly lease for the HR-20.
3) Lock me into a multi-year contract.
4) Charge me a fee if I leave my contract early.
5) Take the HR-20 back after I leave.

Holy crap! Does this seem acceptable? I would love to give the HR-20 another try (I'm an ex-DTV customer from a couple of years ago). However, with all these fees and restrictions I just can't bring myself to try it. DTV's greed is scaring me away.


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Thats both reasonable and acceptable. It's the way D* has done things for awhile now. You would be leasing the HR-20 not buying it, yes there is a monthly fee, it is indeed a 2 year commitment with a charge of I think $12 per month for each month left over in case you cancel early with the HR-20 going back to them.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Gee too bad your better than the rest of D* customers, those rules apply to the rest of us.
*Of course if you don't want those rules just buy the equipment from D* and you won't be leasing and you won't have to return it. Should be around $600.*


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

There are several threads on this forum [pages 1-2] discussing this.
Here is just one of them: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=130582


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

DCSholtis said:


> ... it is indeed a 2 year commitment with a charge of I think $12 per month for each month left over in case you cancel early...


Try $20.

D* Lease Agreement:


> If you fail to maintain your minimum programming commitment, you agree that DIRECTV may charge you a prorated fee of up to $360 for standard receivers and up to $480 for advanced products/receivers (e.g., DVR, HD, HD DVR, etc.).


$480 / 24-month commitment = $20/month not completed


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

Best bet is to go with Dish Network. Pay the $ 50 upfront fee no commit. Plus new customer gets free equipment. Even DTV won't do that.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

DCSholtis said:


> Thats both reasonable and acceptable. It's the way D* has done things for awhile now. You would be leasing the HR-20 not buying it, yes there is a monthly fee, it is indeed a 2 year commitment with a charge of I think $12 per month for each month left over in case you cancel early with the HR-20 going back to them.


Well, I guess I just have a different opinion of what reasonable and acceptable mean.

DTV wants to charge me $298 in up-front fees for two HR-20 boxes. I would consider that a fair amount for a 2-year contact. However, they don't stop there. They also want a monthly lease fee. Huh? Why should I pay a monthly fee when I already paid an up front fee? Ok, maybe I could accept that too. It's a stretch, but I could accept it. Then suppose I do all that, and fulfill my two year commitment. After all that I still don't own the equipment? Come on! That is just plain greedy, and it rubs me the wrong way.

I'm just somebody who wants to try the HR-20 to see if it has improved within the last 2 years like people keep saying. I REALLY want to try it. However, I'm not willing to gamble $298 + lease fees + a long contract to perform that little experiment.

If DTV was forward thinking they would say, "Hey, since you don't need anything installed, and just need a box, then we'll send you one for evaluation. If you don't like it, then send it back and we'll charge you $100." That would seem fair to me, and who knows, they might just gain a new faithful customer.

I guess I'll keep waiting for that to happen.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

Dave said:


> Best bet is to go with Dish Network. Pay the $ 50 upfront fee no commit. Plus new customer gets free equipment. Even DTV won't do that.


Really? DirecTV gives 4 receivers away for free with a new (leased) install.
4 standard receivers, or 1 DVR and 3 standard receivers, or 1 HD receiver and 3 standard receivers. an HD-DVR combo is $99 for new customers.

Oh, and by the way, In the long haul, DirecTV has better service with a better price tag than Dish.
Dish also limits the amount of tuners you can have on an account.
If I remember correctly, the limit is 8.
A single Dish DVR has 3 tuners in it.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

The only thing I can say is if you don't like their requirements then check out your alternatives. OTOH, since you already have a dish installed and all you need to do is connect the receiver and activate service, I think DirecTV should offer some leeway. The upfront fees they charge is to help offset the cost of the equipment and installation. Since you don't need the installation DirecTV is saving money and should give you a break.

As it stands, DirecTV is the only service provider I'm aware of that doesn't allow you to sign up for their service on a trial basis with no penalty if you decide not to keep it. If their service is as good as they claim then subscribers should have no reason to leave them after only 30 days. Instead, they hold you hostage until your 2-year commitment expires or else charge you through the nose if you're not satisfied. They should offer some sort of guarantee as a good faith gesture. If you're not satisfied after 30 days then you should have the right to terminate the service with no penalty. I do feel that it would be fair for DirecTV to charge you for the dish and installation if you terminate early.

One thing I would like to see is a fixed price structure rather than everyone having to play CSR roulette to wheel and deal. Get rid of the upfront fees for DVRs and charge monthly fees comparable to other providers. Rather than paying $299 or $99 or whatever for a HD DVR, charge $10 or $15 per month like everyone else does with no upfront fees. DirecTV charges a fixed fee for each receiver, regardless of whether it's a standard receiver, HD receiver, or DVR. Charge something like $100-150 for installation with no commitment or provide the option of free installation with a one-year contract.

I got tired of all the crap DirecTV does with their pricing and commitment structure so I switched to FIOS. I guarantee you that it costs Verizon a whole lot more to install FIOS than it does for DirecTV to install a dish. The cost to run cabling and hook up a receiver or set top box is the same for either provider. Verizon doesn't charge me any upfront fees and I can drop them at any time if I choose to do so with no penalty. DirecTV is long overdue for an overhaul of their fees and services. They especially need to get rid of the whole commitment requirement unless they offer a reduction in monthly costs as an incentive.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

jbrasure said:


> Well, I guess I just have a different opinion of what reasonable and acceptable mean.
> 
> DTV wants to charge me $298 in up-front fees for two HR-20 boxes. I would consider that a fair amount for a 2-year contact. However, they don't stop there. They also want a monthly lease fee. Huh? Why should I pay a monthly fee when I already paid an up front fee? Ok, maybe I could accept that too. It's a stretch, but I could accept it. Then suppose I do all that, and fulfill my two year commitment. After all that I still don't own the equipment? Come on! That is just plain greedy, and it rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


I guess it is time for you to grow up and enter the adult world. If you want to lease a car you will have an upfront fee usually a few thousand dollars. You are responsible for repairs and milage limitations. And at the end of the lease guess what you have to return the car and there is no trial period.

How much has that 5 LNB dish moved without it being used? Is it a Slimline or AT9? How much corrosion have you got on those exposed fittings over the last 2 years. Yes you do need an install, maybe everything is perfect but that is a gamble they shouldn't take.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

Remember that you get what you pay for. 

Cable: No upfront fee. Limited HD. Crappy receiver.
DirecTV: Upfront fee. Most HD. Better receiver. 

Customer service at both places leaves a lot to be desired.

You always have choices in life, and in this case, it sounds like your best bet is cable. If you're that fed up with cable then you'll switch to DirecTV like I did. As soon as I paid the $300 upfronts to switch to DirecTV I told my wife, and I quote, "that was the best $300 I ever spent." She rolled her eyes at me, but about a month later she concurred. 

You get what you pay for.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

DirecTV's policies are what they are. Your choices are:

Talk them into bending their rules for you.

Go to another provider.

Become the CEO of DirecTV, and change their rules to suit you.

Accept them.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> I sent DirecTV an e-mail yesterday asking if I could try out their service without a contract. After all, I already have a 5 LNB dish, and already have the cabling in the walls. Virtually no installation is necessary. Basically I just need to attach a receiver and activate the service.
> 
> Instead they want to do this:
> 
> ...


I will not accept a contract from any TV provider EVER again after the debacle that was my HR20. NEVER. NEVER EVER.

When D* gets enough confidence to just lease me the box with no contract, and no upfront fee, just like the cable companies do, maybe I'll reconsider. Until then I consider the contract and upfront fee a non-starter. D* is doing it because they KNOW their equipment is subpar, and they need something to keep new subs tied to it, because if they didn't, many would run away screaming.

I know at least one person with an HR20 that is just waiting for his contract to end and he is gone. One more random reboot and he might pitch it in the canal that runs behind his house, though. :lol:

And he cannot get a new HR20, because that would EXTEND his contract....:nono:

What a steaming pile of dung. :lol:


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

stogie5150 said:


> I know at least one person with an HR20 that is just waiting for his contract to end and he is gone. One more random reboot and he might pitch it in the canal that runs behind his house, though. :lol:
> 
> And he cannot get a new HR20, because that would EXTEND his contract....:nono:


This isn't true - if he's having issues with his box then he is eligible for an exchange by paying the shipping fee (assuming he doesn't have prot. plan) and it won't extend his contract. Let's stick with our problems that we know about on this forum instead of "a guy I know" since we never seem to get the whole story; it's very convenient to bash DirecTV and then throw your arms up in the air when questions are asked about what the "guy" has tried to fix his situation. It's fruitless.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

CJTE said:


> Really? DirecTV gives 4 receivers away for free with a new (leased) install.
> 4 standard receivers, or 1 DVR and 3 standard receivers, or 1 HD receiver and 3 standard receivers. an HD-DVR combo is $99 for new customers.


How are they giving receivers away if they are leased? Either they are giving customers the receivers, or the customers are leasing them. It can't be both.

Regardless, if you don't like what D* offers, go to another provider. I think it's BS that I had to pay $199 up front so I can lease a receiver for $6 a month, but D* is the best provider for what I want, so I paid it. I had other options and chose D*.


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## Floyd (Nov 10, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> DTV wants to charge me $298 in up-front fees for two HR-20 boxes. I would consider that a fair amount for a 2-year contact. However, they don't stop there. They also want a monthly lease fee. Huh? Why should I pay a monthly fee when I already paid an up front fee? (


Your up-front fee of $298(for two) is way less than the $999 many people paid for the HD tivo receivers when they came out and had to be purchased. At that time DTV had no lease program. Granted, the new DVRs aren't worth $999, but DTV is giving you a discounted price to make it easier for you to get into their program, and they hope to make some of the money back over the two year committment, since many customers opt for extra or premium programming. The lease fee may be considered an insurance plan, since they will replace your receiver if it dies.
I agree that they should have a trial period available that would only cost whatever the shipping and installation is worth. Maybe the next best thing for you would be to find someone who allready has the setup and take a look at it? Maybe a local dealer would help you there.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

jbrasure said:


> 1) Charge me an up-front fee for the HR-20.
> 2) Charge me a monthly lease for the HR-20.


They do not charge you a monthly lease for your receiver, they only charge a lease fee for each additional receiver. That has always been the case, only the name of the charge changed (additional receiver fee to lease fee).


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

jbrasure said:


> DTV wants to charge me $298 in up-front fees for two HR-20 boxes. I would consider that a fair amount for a 2-year contact. However, they don't stop there. *They also want a monthly lease fee. Huh? Why should I pay a monthly fee when I already paid an up front fee?* Ok, maybe I could accept that too. It's a stretch, but I could accept it. Then suppose I do all that, and fulfill my two year commitment. After all that I still don't own the equipment? Come on! That is just plain greedy, and it rubs me the wrong way.


The fee is ONLY for each additional receiver.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

dbronstein said:


> How are they giving receivers away if they are leased? Either they are giving customers the receivers, or the customers are leasing them. It can't be both.
> 
> Regardless, if you don't like what D* offers, go to another provider. I think it's BS that I had to pay $199 up front so I can lease a receiver for $6 a month, but D* is the best provider for what I want, so I paid it. I had other options and chose D*.


The lease fee is simply an additional receiver fee. You do not pay a lease fee if you only have 1 receiver.


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## BrianB (Jul 13, 2003)

CJTE said:


> Really? DirecTV gives 4 receivers away for free with a new (leased) install.
> 4 standard receivers, or 1 DVR and 3 standard receivers, or 1 HD receiver and 3 standard receivers. an HD-DVR combo is $99 for new customers..


Yes, but like he said E* has no upfront costs for the HD-DVR.



CJTE said:


> Oh, and by the way, In the long haul, DirecTV has better service with a better price tag than Dish.


Opinion



CJTE said:


> Dish also limits the amount of tuners you can have on an account.
> If I remember correctly, the limit is 8.
> A single Dish DVR has 3 tuners in it.


It doesn't sound like he wants more than 8 tuners. An while a 722 HD-DVR does have 3 tuners, one of them is OTA and does not count.

This isn't a D* vs E* debate, but your facts needed correcting.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

BrianB said:


> Yes, but like he said E* has no upfront costs for the HD-DVR.


That is what companies tend to do when they are desperate. Quartly profits for Dish are down, while they are still increasing for Direct. Sub gain for Dish is down substantially, while they increased pretty good with Direct. Direct doesn't need to give equipment away to get customers. They may give stuff away through negation though.

And Direct did not charge me an upfront cost for my HR-20, my dad's HR-21, or my sister's HR-20. The power of negotiation is wonderful.


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

CJTE said:


> Really? DirecTV gives 4 receivers away for free with a new (leased) install.
> 4 standard receivers, or 1 DVR and 3 standard receivers, or 1 HD receiver and 3 standard receivers. an HD-DVR combo is $99 for new customers.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, In the long haul, DirecTV has better service with a better price tag than Dish.
> ...


If you go to D* website and build your system, it appears that the max number of receivers is 6 also.


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

DodgerKing said:


> That is what companies tend to do when they are desperate. Quartly profits for Dish are down, while they are still increasing for Direct. Sub gain for Dish is down substantially, while they increased pretty good with Direct. Direct doesn't need to give equipment away to get customers. They may give stuff away through negation though.
> 
> And Direct did not charge me an upfront cost for my HR-20, my dad's HR-21, or my sister's HR-20. The power of negotiation is wonderful.


I do find it interesting that even while E* is giving away a free HD-DVR, D* is charging $99 for new customers, *and last quarter gained 7.8 TIMES more net new customers than E**.

E* 2008 Q1 Report (page 36): E* grossed 730,000 new customers, with a _net_ gain of 35,000.

D* 2008 Q1 Report: D* grossed 964,000 new customers, with a _net_ gain of 275,000.

So, E* gives their product away and gains fewer new customers than D* when D* actually asks people to pay for the product.

Interesting, don't ya think?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

First of all I can tell you that it's possible to have waaaaay more than 6 receivers on an account. You just can't build it through the website that way. 

Second, to the original poster, I respect your point of view and I understand that you would like to be able to try without a contract. However, that's not really feasible given the real cost of hardware and installation, and the time it takes to amortize. DIRECTV has the right to set business policies within the bounds of the law.


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

richiephx said:


> If you go to D* website and build your system, it appears that the max number of receivers is 6 also.


For a new order directly through D*, yes, but there is no maximum number of active receivers on an account.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

DodgerKing said:


> The lease fee is simply an additional receiver fee. You do not pay a lease fee if you only have 1 receiver.


I stand corrected. They changed the labeling at the same time I got my HR20, hence the confusion.

I stand by my original point - how are they "giving away" leased receivers?


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## 996911 (Aug 24, 2006)

Las time I checked, it was FREE for all receivers except the HD-DVR and you could get that with a $99 upgrade fee. That over the course of a 2-year commitment is just a tick over $4 a month and then NOTHING after that. When I had cable I had to pay ZERO for my HD-DVR box but I did have to pay a monthly lease fee as long as I owned the box which was something close to $10 a month. Do the math, it's WAY cheaper to go with the D* HD-DVR. Think of it as a break for paying up front that you get a reduced box rental fee for 24-months and then ZERO for the rest of the time you have service.

It amazes that some people do not see this as simple math and instead choose to only see what they want to.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

dbronstein said:


> I stand corrected. They changed the labeling at the same time I got my HR20, hence the confusion.
> 
> I stand by my original point - how are they "giving away" leased receivers?


I don't know? I got a leased receiver for free...


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

dbronstein said:


> I stand by my original point - how are they "giving away" leased receivers?


Just a difference in verbiage.

They're not "giving them away", they're providing the leased unit with no upfront cost (in some cases).


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## bryan 93 ? (May 1, 2008)

My last car was free then.....NOT

It still cost me 300 bucks a month for the lease, but there was no money down on the lease. No one in their right mind would call that car "free"!



DodgerKing said:


> I don't know? I got a leased receiver for free...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

CJTE said:


> Really? DirecTV gives 4 receivers away for free with a new (leased) install.


And DISH Network will give away four TVs worth of receivers too; it just happens to be a pair of dual TV receivers for which you are charged only two monthly receiver fees.


> Oh, and by the way, In the long haul, DirecTV has better service with a better price tag than Dish. Dish also limits the amount of tuners you can have on an account.


They have a limit to the number of _leased_ satellite tuners on an account.


> A single Dish DVR has 3 tuners in it.


The OTA tuner is not counted and more importantly, they don't charge extra for it.

You must endeavor make an informed decision because there are distinct advantages to both services as well as compromises that can't be summed up in package pricing or the existence/absence of fees. At the moment, the DIRECTV early termination fee makes a compelling argument for any of their competitors.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

spartanstew said:


> They're not "giving them away", they're providing the leased unit with no upfront cost (in some cases).


If you pay nothing up front and incur no additional monthly fees, it would seem to be "free" as compared with an outright purchased receiver. The beauty of the lease is that you don't have to take a depreciation hit when you upgrade and/or change providers.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Second, to the original poster, I respect your point of view and I understand that you would like to be able to try without a contract. However, that's not really feasible given the real cost of hardware and installation, and the time it takes to amortize. DIRECTV has the right to set business policies within the bounds of the law.


With the exception of the receivers It appeared that the OP wouldn't need any hardware or installation. Lets assume that he would got to his favorite big box store and "buy" the receivers then pay the monthly lease fee, and retrurn them to DirecTv when he leaves (AKA: Standard procedure for receivers). That being the case why should someone be locked into a 2 year committment? It cost DirecTv absolutely nothing upfront.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Whew! Sorry for opening this can of worms.

Anyway, I guess I'll stick with cable until the DTV entry barrier drops lower.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> Whew! Sorry for opening this can of worms.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I'll stick with cable until the DTV entry barrier drops lower.


That sounds like the best option for your needs.

Cable in my area is unwatchable, has very limited HD choices, and the DirecTV terms are fine for my needs.

It's a good thing we have choices.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> With the exception of the receivers It appeared that the OP wouldn't need any hardware or installation. Lets assume that he would got to his favorite big box store and "buy" the receivers then pay the monthly lease fee, and retrurn them to DirecTv when he leaves (AKA: Standard procedure for receivers). That being the case why should someone be locked into a 2 year committment? It cost DirecTv absolutely nothing upfront.


But it does. The acquisition cost at a big box store is less than the "full retail" price of the receiver. So they are still subsidizing the box. Thus the commitment period.

Now for example, say the OP ordered the HR21Pro, which is owned and only owned. I believe then, he would not have a commitment period.

But if he isn't happy with the service, he now has a $599 receiver to deal with.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

There's always the HR21PRO, $600, owned, not leased.


Edit: Oops, RobertE beat me to the punch.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

RobertE said:


> But it does. The acquisition cost at a big box store is less than the "full retail" price of the receiver. So they are still subsidizing the box. Thus the commitment period.


No, that's all part of the lease model and why it must be returned when leaving.


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## josetann (Oct 2, 2006)

I think the real problem is that you can't "buy" a receiver at Best Buy, do a self-install, activate, and still be able to return the receiver within 30 days. There really should be some kind of trial period that's fair to both parties.

Best you can do right now, is go "buy" a receiver at Best Buy or wherever, hook it up, let it download the update, then see how it works on the free (preview) channels. Not a very good way to try it out, but it might be the best you can do. If it keeps crapping out, rebooting, whatever then just return it. Long as it's not activated, you should be able to return it no problem.


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Best Buy's policy states that returns must go through DirecTV. You cannot, under any circumstances, return a box to Best Buy.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

bryan 93 ? said:


> My last car was free then.....NOT
> 
> It still cost me 300 bucks a month for the lease, but there was no money down on the lease. No one in their right mind would call that car "free"!


What is your point? Your car analogy has nothing to do with my receiver lease. I got a HR-20 for free and pay no lease fee on it. That means it IS free. It is still leased however because Direct owns it; I don't.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

RobertE said:


> Now for example, say the OP ordered the HR21Pro, which is owned and only owned. I believe then, he would not have a commitment period. But if he isn't happy with the service, he now has a $599 receiver to deal with.


Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I really don't mind the up-front cost as long as the box is mine after I pay for it. Then if I don't like it, I can cancel my service and sell the box on eBay.

I may contact DTV to see if they will go for something like that.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I really don't mind the up-front cost as long as the box is mine after I pay for it. Then if I don't like it, I can cancel my service and sell the box on eBay.
> 
> I may contact DTV to see if they will go for something like that.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.


To get a HR21Pro, I believe you need to go through a third party, such as www.solidsignal.com or www.valueelectronics.com. I don't believe that you can get one straight through DirecTv for some odd reason.


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## STEVED21 (Feb 6, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I really don't mind the up-front cost as long as the box is mine after I pay for it. Then if I don't like it, I can cancel my service and sell the box on eBay.
> 
> I may contact DTV to see if they will go for something like that.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.


Again, we have this issue with "the committment period". Here, we have a potential customer willing to pay $400 more upfront on day one just to avoid a committment and a possible $480 ETF. And that is for just one receiver. I do not understand why you want to own the box. I have a basement full of boxes that I own. Paid a good deal of money for some of them. Nobody wants them, they don't receive all the programming and they are not DVR's.

How much do you think you'll get on EBAY for a box that most can get much cheaper directly from Directv? And if you like the HR-21 think of how much money you are out just to avoid "the committment".


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Whew! Sorry for opening this can of worms.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I'll stick with cable until the DTV entry barrier drops lower.


The D* 24 month commitment is most likely here to stay as it doesn't seem to be affecting their new sub additions. Will it have an effect on keeping customers? Who knows.

I'm sure of one thing, I'd run from a 24 month commitment with no trial period. However if I could find friends with the service that I could look at then I might rethink my position.

OTOH I've bought three New cars and run them til they dropped. I have no interest in leasing a car that would keep me paying lease fees and have to give it back when the lease ended. Then that vicious cycle would start again with another lease for most people. My 1988 car still runs at the speed limit the same as a brand new one does. Why should I change? Did I mention 3,000 +/- miles a year with my current job? 5 minute comute, Winter the heat guage is starting to budge when I get home. AC starts getting the car cool abut the time I'm parking.

That is the big difference between DVRs and Cars. If there had been a 1988 DVR it would have been rendered obsolete by my change over to HD.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

DodgerKing said:


> I don't know? I got a leased receiver for free...


But they didn't give it to you, they are letting you use it. There's a huge difference. If they gave it to you, you could keep it when you cancel your service instead of having to send it back.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

harsh said:


> If you pay nothing up front and incur no additional monthly fees, it would seem to be "free" as compared with an outright purchased receiver. The beauty of the lease is that you don't have to take a depreciation hit when you upgrade and/or change providers.


If you pay nothing for it, that's correct. If you have to pay $199 for it, then it's not so beautiful.


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

Best of the bad bunch. That's why i stay.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually I think the contracts DIRECTV have in place are much looser than you'll get if you try to get a cell phone or a service contract on software.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

jbrasure said:


> I guess I'll stick with cable until the DTV entry barrier drops lower.


 Seems like a wise idea to me.

If you don't like DirecTV's business model, then don't do business with them. Simple. To expect them to change their entire way of doing business just to get your subscription seems like the height of arrogance to me. Do you tell a chef at a restaurant how to spice your food?

Launch your own satellites if you want to do business your way.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Cable here is extremely limited and often totally out of service for days.

Dish Network takes channels away with no notice based upon how much they have to pay for them and has no Sunday Ticket.

I had no problem with the comittment I made to DirecTV. I paid nothing when obtaining my SD receivers and installation two years ago and I've paid very little up-front for the HD equipment since then.


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## jester121 (Jun 10, 2008)

I wrestled with this for a long time, getting really annoyed with Comcast's $30/mo DVR rental charge on my bill (2 @ $14.95) and a pretty crummy channel lineup for $55+ per month. However, our cable TV hasn't had an outage that I've noticed in the 2 years we've been in the house. That was my biggest concern really, getting a flaky dish that spazzed out every time an angry looking cloud floated by. 

So yesterday I got service installed, and I'm completely blown away by the picture quality of Directv's HD -- had no idea Comcast was doing so much compression, and this is with HDMI into a 42" plasma and 60" LCD both at 720p/1080i. The Directv DVR is 2-3 generations ahead of Comcast's in functionality, and is much more responsive.

Having said that, this morning one HD DVR receiver was locked up, or rather it locked up and froze the picture on the screen the instant I pressed a button on the remote. Had to do a reset with the red button to get it going again. Sure, I'm nervous about the horror stories of people who have gone through 5 DVRs and still have problems, but those are pretty few and far between.

Only time will tell, for now I'm happy with the programming vs. the price and we'll see how it performs during summer storms and Chicago winters.


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

Ah you bring up a good point, those satellites are using public air waves and public airspace, that leaves DTV with a responsibility to serve the public. Where is this service? Price gouging the unsuspecting with constant reboots and defective equipment with a side of 2 year commitment? You can buy many cell phones that have no commitment from every company, and they all give you 30 days to try the service. DTV gives you 3 seconds to scribble your name on the installers sheet to commit yourself to 2 year of DTV servitude.


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## CJTE (Sep 18, 2007)

BrianB said:


> Yes, but like he said E* has no upfront costs for the HD-DVR.


haha.
Yea, wait about 2 weeks and try to convince me thats still an argument.

Oh, and by the way, Dish leases the equipment too (when you cancel service, they request all the equipment back. Been there, done that.), AND, in regards to Dish not having a 2 year commitment, that is IF you pay the up-front fee. You can have the fee's waived by getting a 2 year commitment.

So, Dish has commitments too y'all.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> The D* 24 month commitment is most likely here to stay as it doesn't seem to be affecting their new sub additions. Will it have an effect on keeping customers? Who knows.


Well, I believe the effect is that it is keeping customers for well over a year. Not may people are willing to lose $400-$800 in up-front lease fees and ETF's to get out of their contracts early.



jbrasure said:


> Hmm, that's not a bad idea. I really don't mind the up-front cost as long as the box is mine after I pay for it. Then if I don't like it, I can cancel my service and sell the box on eBay.


Don't count on it. D* has recently taken the position that their current generation self-branded receivers contain "licensed intellectual property" and while you may in fact own the physical unit, you don't own the software code contained within and therefore you cannot sell it. Many eBay auctions are getting canceled because of this and D*'s lawyers are getting very aggressive. You can own the box all day long, you just can't legally sell it. My guess is this has more to do with D* not wanting their highly profitable and overpriced leasing model to suffer than actual concerns of software.


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## jester121 (Jun 10, 2008)

rudeney said:


> Don't count on it. D* has recently taken the position that their current generation self-branded receivers contain "licensed intellectual property" and while you may in fact own the physical unit, you don't own the software code contained within and therefore you cannot sell it. Many eBay auctions are getting canceled because of this and D*'s lawyers are getting very aggressive. You can own the box all day long, you just can't legally sell it. My guess is this has more to do with D* not wanting their highly profitable and overpriced leasing model to suffer than actual concerns of software.


That's basically the Cisco argument -- you can sell used Cisco gear (routers, switches, whatever) that you own but the IOS (firmware) is only licensed as non-transferrable. Thus, you should wipe the firmware from the router's memory before selling it, and the eBay buyer must pay Cisco a huge fee to license the software brand new to load on the used gear.

I don't think Cisco does much enforcement of this any more (it's better for them to have lots of pro-sumer/enthusiasts learning to use their gear so Cisco gets recommended to the bosses at work). But they used to be much tougher on hardware switching owners.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

boba said:


> I guess it is time for you to grow up and enter the adult world.


I believe the OP is being justifiably cautious, and that is a very "adult" thing to do. It's actually very immature to blindly enter a contract just because "everyone else does it."

As I have mentioned before, I absolutely *LOVE* car analogies, but they absolutely *DO NOT FIT* with D*...



> If you want to lease a car you will have an upfront fee usually a few thousand dollars.


That is incorrect. I have leased dozens of vehicles and I *never* pay anything up front other than the first month's payment, and sometime not even that.

The problem I have with D* is a lack of choice in that matter. Let me chose if I want to pay $200 up front and then $5/mo, or would I rather just pay $20/mo for two years (or $25 for no commitment maybe?)



> You are responsible for repairs and milage limitations.


Actually, most people tend to lease a car for no longer than the term of the factor warranty, so repairs, other than accidental damage, would be covered. As for mileage, it's best to choose the correct allotment up front. Still, many leasing companies have options for when your needs change.

With D*, they warrant the equipment for 90 days, which is longer than the term of the lease, so your choice is to pay for repairs or to pay extra for the PP. There really are no "mileage" issue with D* equipment so this has no relevance in the analogy.



> And at the end of the lease guess what you have to return the car


Well, actually, you could buy it for the agreed-upon residual price. In fact, many leasing companies will negotiate the residual price if you really want to buy the car. Mercedes-Benz can actually be quite willing to do this as often time, their residual is highly inflated.

As for D*, you have no choice - there is no residual, you must return the equipment. Period.



> and there is no trial period.


Would you buy a car without a demo drive first? Even if it isn't the exact one you buy, but one just like it, most all buyers demo first. In fact, if you ask, most every dealer will let you take the vehicle home overnight. It's called a "puppy dog" and more often than not, it sells a car.

In the D* world, there is no such thing. The most you can do is go watch for a few minutes in a retail store. Honestly, any company that isn't willing to give customers a trial, even for just a few days, is likely hiding some serious flaws with their product or service.



> How much has that 5 LNB dish moved without it being used? Is it a Slimline or AT9? How much corrosion have you got on those exposed fittings over the last 2 years. Yes you do need an install, maybe everything is perfect but that is a gamble they shouldn't take.


Chances are the installer isn't going to touch the dish if it's already installed unless there are issues with signal quality.

I hold no grudge against D* for implanting ETF's in the case where they do invest money in an installation. What I do begrudge them is when they force a commitment on a customer and the customer gets really nothing in return. Here, there is an existing dish, so they could send the customer a receiver to self-install and use under an xx-day trial period. It would cost them nothing more than some minor shipping charges and a few minutes of CSR time. The fact that they aren't willing to do that is, IMHO, either a way of "hiding something" or simply wanting to make sure this doesn't effect their churn rate.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

boba said:


> Gee too bad your better than the rest of D* customers, those rules apply to the rest of us.
> *Of course if you don't want those rules just buy the equipment from D* and you won't be leasing and you won't have to return it. Should be around $600.*


That may not be possible. My understanding is that anytime D* activates new service on a new access card, a commitment is required. Period. It's happened to me and to others on the forum. Maybe that is not "correct policy", but if it's what the CSR's are doing in practice, then in effect it is "policy".


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

rudeney said:


> That may not be possible. My understanding is that anytime D* activates new service on a new access card, a commitment is required. Period. It's happened to me and to others on the forum. Maybe that is not "correct policy", but if it's what the CSR's are doing in practice, then in effect it is "policy".


I think this is one of the practices that is gaining scrutiny.

For sure, when D* has installers come by and they have to pay for a new install, or an install into an extra room, or to give a special deal on more programming for a period of time, they need the contract extension to justify the cost. That's totally fair. But if all they are doing is replacing broken leased equipment or someone is changing their programming tier _at standard rates,_ it seems pretty foul to claim the clock starts ticking all over again.


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## dyker (Feb 27, 2008)

jbrasure said:


> ...
> 1) Charge me an up-front fee for the HR-20.
> 2) Charge me a monthly lease for the HR-20.
> 3) Lock me into a multi-year contract.
> ...


Be very afraid. After "upgrading" to HD after being out of contract, I paid $400 for HD DVR "lease" fees and got locked in a 2 year contract. In one week I decided the bugs in the HRXX were unacceptable and asked them to just downgrade me. SURE!!! they said they would and I just need to ship them back the HRXX (losing $400). I said that was BULL and just to cxl me... SURE!!! THEY WOULD LOVE TO FOR A $600 cxl fee. So extorted $1000 or locked into total crap service. I chose being locked... Scares me if anything happens to one of the HRXX boxes they'll just willie nillie extend my contract another 2 years from what I read.:nono2:  :nono:


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

So dyker, are you still having problems with your HR21? I did a quick search and it seems like you're only having one lingering issue.


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## dyker (Feb 27, 2008)

boba said:


> Gee too bad your better than the rest of D* customers, those rules apply to the rest of us.
> *Of course if you don't want those rules just buy the equipment from D* and you won't be leasing and you won't have to return it. Should be around $600.*


Yeah, then try selling that hardware on ebay and dealing with everyone questioning whether you're selling a leased box... and getting little $ back out of it due to D*'s lock on the lease program.... and having D* just willie nillie setting the box up as "leased" for the new customer and dealing with all of that.

Screwed if you do. Screwed if you don't.:nono2:  :nono:


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## runner26 (Apr 8, 2007)

tcusta00 said:


> This isn't true - if he's having issues with his box then he is eligible for an exchange by paying the shipping fee (assuming he doesn't have prot. plan) and it won't extend his contract. Let's stick with our problems that we know about on this forum instead of "a guy I know" since we never seem to get the whole story; it's very convenient to bash DirecTV and then throw your arms up in the air when questions are asked about what the "guy" has tried to fix his situation. It's fruitless.


I have a very simple question. Why do the tivo based boxes work and the HRxx do not. It seems to me that Directv should address this in an open forum instead of telling us they are working on it. These boxes are still not right after two years. Why no answer from Directv?


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## dyker (Feb 27, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> So dyker, are you still having problems with your HR21? I did a quick search and it seems like you're only having one lingering issue.


I'm very frustrated with the fact I cannot watch through HDMI. Also recently I've had multiple reboots and odd trickplay. And recently 771 sat errors. And lately on HD the system has been making a rasberry sound since the last software update. I just don't post them all the time.

Are you saying all the lingering issues have been resolved for everyone else? It seems like it was smooth a while (Component) and now isn't again. I'm concerned with all the talk of encryption on HDMI that D* will soon downgrade component to 480p and I'll be left with no more HD except through HDMI... which trickplay causes "unsupported audio signals" on.

And also, I posted factually what I was told by D* just a week after upgrading early 2008. $1000 to quit, $400 GONE if I want to downgrade back to SD. I would have been fine returning the HRXX getting my $400 refunded since IMO it didn't deliver as a piece of electronics should have, and even staying in contract. Was told: NOPE. It wasn't buyers remorse.... when the HD works it is GREAT. When it doesn't it is an aggravating viewing experience to put it mildly.


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## Joxxk (Jun 15, 2008)

jbrasure said:


> I sent DirecTV an e-mail yesterday asking if I could try out their service without a contract. After all, I already have a 5 LNB dish, and already have the cabling in the walls. Virtually no installation is necessary. Basically I just need to attach a receiver and activate the service.
> 
> Instead they want to do this:
> 
> ...


They didn't get to be a Billion $$ company by letting people "try out" thier current #1 product. Everyone wants a HD DVR! They spend alot of money advertising the very best HDTV in the world. Why would they give it away to you or anyone? 
You wanna talk "greed"? go look in the mirror.. see if that scares you too!
No really.... your wanting to try out something that sells very well! It's the best, take my word for it.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

runner26 said:


> I have a very simple question. Why do the tivo based boxes work and the HRxx do not. It seems to me that Directv should address this in an open forum instead of telling us they are working on it. These boxes are still not right after two years. Why no answer from Directv?


The TIVO boxes which have been in development for many, many years, work for SD MPEG-2 transmissions only. All the pretty new HD stuff cant be gotten on the HD Tivo boxes.

The HRxx boxes actually work pretty well, by many people's responses. I dont know what your particular beef is with them. 2 years after the release of the Tivo based boxes, there were still tons if issues with them as well....


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Joxxk said:


> They didn't get to be a Billion $$ company by letting people "try out" thier current #1 product. Everyone wants a HD DVR! They spend alot of money advertising the very best HDTV in the world. Why would they give it away to you or anyone?
> You wanna talk "greed"? go look in the mirror.. see if that scares you too!
> No really.... your wanting to try out something that sells very well! It's the best, take my word for it.


You tell 'em. Geez! People are *SO* out of line wanting to test drive a product before making what to many is a large and long committment.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

dbronstein said:


> But they didn't give it to you, they are letting you use it. There's a huge difference. If they gave it to you, you could keep it when you cancel your service instead of having to send it back.


So... The point is, I paid nothing up front for the receiver and pay no monthly fee to use the receiver... And, why would I want it after I am done? What good would it do me? I have 3 old Hughes receivers and 1 TiVO sitting in my closet collecting dust. I could care less if they asked for them back. I am not going to use them anyway, even though I could if I wanted to.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

Guess I'll go ahead and throw in my 2 cents... :grin:

Lots of good points made in this thread... Lots of bad points made in this thread...

When it comes to the contract and the fees... The fact of the matter is... it is what it is... You have to decide whether or not it is worth it to you... I personally think contracts suck... and I could do without the upfront equipment costs... But I understand why they are both there... and I made the decision that best fits my family's wants and needs... I am also a firm believer in the phrase "you get what you pay for"... and in my case... I believe I did... I am very happy with my equipment and the service being provided to me... 

I do wish there was a way to 'test drive' this equipment first... I don't think that's an unreasonable request at all... But in most cases, that is unrealistic... due to the fact it would require the installation of a dish... but in the case of the OP, I see no reason why he shouldn't be allowed to test the box out...


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

Dave said:


> Best bet is to go with Dish Network. Pay the $ 50 upfront fee no commit. Plus new customer gets free equipment. Even DTV won't do that.


I agree. Go back to Dish. They have the best DVR and at the best price, FREE!


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## gizzly (May 25, 2008)

CCarncross said:


> The HRxx boxes actually work pretty well, by many people's responses. I dont know what your particular beef is with them. 2 years after the release of the Tivo based boxes, there were still tons if issues with them as well....


There were tons of issues with the TiVo boxes? My biggest issue was finding the time to watch all the programming I was recording!


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## Dwrecked (Mar 2, 2007)

D* isn't for everyone. Have fun with your cable lol.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

because everyone is cheap and didnt outbid directv for sunday ticket when they had the chance.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Joxxk said:


> They didn't get to be a Billion $$ company by letting people "try out" thier current #1 product.


Many $$B companies let prospective customers "try out" their products. Many actually give customers short-term satisfaction guarantees. D* does not do this and that is the whole point of this thread.
[QUOTQ]Everyone wants a HD DVR! They spend alot of money advertising the very best HDTV in the world. Why would they give it away to you or anyone? [/QUOTE]
They can advertise it being the best all they want, but when customers sign up and discover they don't like the user interface, that their TV's are incompatible with D*'s HDMI implementation, that they can't handle the bugs in that HD DVR, and now they would lose $500 or more for cancelling, all the advertising in the world becomes meaningless. 


> You wanna talk "greed"? go look in the mirror.. see if that scares you too!


Uh, that was uncalled-for. 


> No really.... your wanting to try out something that sells very well! It's the best, take my word for it.


OK, take my word for it - the (fill in the blank) is the best car in the world. Don't bother driving one - just buy it!


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## DCSholtis (Aug 7, 2002)

Kheldar said:


> Try $20.
> 
> D* Lease Agreement:
> 
> $480 / 24-month commitment = $20/month not completed


Well I never intend to cancel so I tend to overlook that part of the agreement.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Elephanthead said:


> Ah you bring up a good point, those satellites are using public air waves and public airspace, that leaves DTV with a responsibility to serve the public. Where is this service?


 Not even close to reality. There is a whole lot of difference between getting government approval to broadcast over a specific frequency to make sure you don't interfer with other broadcasts and the responsibility your local TV stations have to serve the community. A closer analogy might be with the networks like NBC and Fox, but still, it doesn't hold. If CBS decided to never broadcast another presidential press conference, there isn't a thing the government could do about it, and that's the way it should be. We don't want government to control our media distribution. DirecTV has a responsibility to serve one group only: their shareholders.



> Price gouging the unsuspecting with constant reboots and defective equipment with a side of 2 year commitment? You can buy many cell phones that have no commitment from every company, and they all give you 30 days to try the service. DTV gives you 3 seconds to scribble your name on the installers sheet to commit yourself to 2 year of DTV servitude.


Exaggerate much?


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

tcusta00 said:


> This isn't true - if he's having issues with his box then he is eligible for an exchange by paying the shipping fee (assuming he doesn't have prot. plan) and it won't extend his contract. Let's stick with our problems that we know about on this forum instead of "a guy I know" since we never seem to get the whole story; it's very convenient to bash DirecTV and then throw your arms up in the air when questions are asked about what the "guy" has tried to fix his situation. It's fruitless.


With all due respect, you are wrong. I personally got dinged with it when I replaced a SD TIVO with a r15. When I cancelled, I asked when my contract started last, it was the r15, NOT the HR20 I had gotten five months before. I didn't have the Protection plan, and it was a replacement of an owned receiver, and all I paid was shipping.

And the "guy I know" is my best friend in the world, * I * called FOR him to begin his service since I knew how D* did business, I explained his options to him, and he was okay with it. I told him that D* was working hard to fix issues that were occuring, and that it would be a work in progress. I did a re-aim for him already, because the installer didn't aim for 103a when he installed the ODU, and D* wanted 75.00 to fix a problem that was theirs to start with, I knew because my Slimline was the same way, and I had to reaim mine.

I handle all his contact with D* because he works on the river as a towboat captain, away from home a LOT, and his wife is less than comfortable with talking to D* when she knows nothing about the way they operate.

FWIW he DID tell me he was gonna re-evaulate my friend status after me recommending D*, and then him having the issues so far....:lol:

So he, and I, agree with the OP.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> You tell 'em. Geez! People are *SO* out of line wanting to test drive a product before making what to many is a large and long committment.


You CAN test drive D*...go to Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, etc... It's there...you can look at it on HD, SD whatever. Cry me a river about the test driving it in your home. If you don't like their policies, then don't buy their product. It's simple, VERY SIMPLE. I can't buy a GPS at Best Buy to try it out in my car w/out a cost. Even if you return it 30 minutes later they charge a restocking fee. It's life and you are NOT Entitled to change the way they do their business. You ARE entitled to CHOOSE where you get your stuff.

Simple.

Blah.

The decision is YOURS to make.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

luckydob said:


> You CAN test drive D*...go to Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, etc... It's there...you can look at it on HD, SD whatever. Cry me a river about the test driving it in your home. If you don't like their policies, then don't buy their product. It's simple, VERY SIMPLE. I can't buy a GPS at Best Buy to try it out in my car w/out a cost. Even if you return it 30 minutes later they charge a restocking fee. It's life and you are NOT Entitled to change the way they do their business. You ARE entitled to CHOOSE where you get your stuff.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> ...


WOW! your Best buy really sucks. IOn the few occasions I've needed to return something I've never been charged a restocking fee.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

luckydob said:


> You CAN test drive D*...go to Radio Shack, Best Buy, Circuit City, Sears, etc... It's there...you can look at it on HD, SD whatever. Cry me a river about the test driving it in your home. If you don't like their policies, then don't buy their product. It's simple, VERY SIMPLE. I can't buy a GPS at Best Buy to try it out in my car w/out a cost. Even if you return it 30 minutes later they charge a restocking fee. It's life and you are NOT Entitled to change the way they do their business. You ARE entitled to CHOOSE where you get your stuff.
> 
> Simple.
> 
> ...


That's like saying you don't need to test drive a car becasue you can sit in it on the showroom floor or that you don't need to look at a house becasue you can see the floorplan.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> That's like saying you don't need to test drive a car becasue you can sit in it on the showroom floor or that you don't need to look at a house becasue you can see the floorplan.


what are you talking about? You can go into Best Buy...pick up the remote and use the receiver to, i dunno, use the service. MUCH similar to, i dunno, test driving a car. You don't get to do the same things you will do day to day, but you DO get to test drive it. Simple. Worried about rain fade? Go to Best Buy on a stormy day. It's all there.

Just so you know...the GPS restocking fee is for ALL Best Buy locations...not across the board, but for GPS units specifically. There are other items as well.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...7&entryURLID=cat12101&entryURLType=page&h=287

You know...I really want to try out this iTunes thingy...will they give me 30 days to try out the music on their site with an iPod for free?? NOPE... http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APP...m=browse&mco=MTE2NDI&node=help/returns_refund Analogies can be twisted in many, many different ways. Comes back to it being YOUR choice. Don't like it, then go elsewhere. :eek2:


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Last I checked itunes doesn't charge me $20/mo for 24 months if I stop purchasing from them. I'm also fairly certain I could return the ipod if i wasn't satisfied with it.


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## luckydob (Oct 2, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> Last I checked itunes doesn't charge me $20/mo for 24 months if I stop purchasing from them. I'm also fairly certain I could return the ipod if i wasn't satisfied with it.


You can return it...but at a cost. After all that's what this is about...costs. So, I have provided you 2 examples of where you cannot get free tests of products. What makes the D* way any worse than the others?


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

luckydob said:


> what are you talking about? You can go into Best Buy...pick up the remote and use the receiver to, i dunno, use the service.


The problem is that DirecTV and the HR-20 can't realistically be evaluated in the store. I could evaluate the picture quality, and the HR-20 UI. However, I would have no clue about the day-to-day reliability of the HR-20. That's my real concern.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

luckydob said:


> Cry me a river about the test driving it in your home. If you don't like their policies, then don't buy their product. It's simple, VERY SIMPLE. It's life and you are NOT Entitled to change the way they do their business. You ARE entitled to CHOOSE where you get your stuff.


Actually it's not simple at all. Some people get 2 year contacts. Other people get 18 month contracts. Some people get their contracts extended whenever a change is made, and other people don't. Plus none of this is disclosed up front until you sign some fine print on the installation sheet. I don't know about you, but I have never read fine print that was simple.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> Seems like a wise idea to me.
> 
> If you don't like DirecTV's business model, then don't do business with them. Simple. To expect them to change their entire way of doing business just to get your subscription seems like the height of arrogance to me. Do you tell a chef at a restaurant how to spice your food?
> 
> Launch your own satellites if you want to do business your way.


I know one thing: Companies do change, and they do adapt to customer's demands over time. It's up to us to tell them what we want. Maybe someday D* will listen. I hope so. I'll be patient.

And yes, I do tell the chef how spicy I want my food. If the scale is 1 -10, I ask for 15.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^ You and me, buddy, and that's why there is a jar of Tabasco on the table. You sound too intelligent to go into the kitchen of one of San Francisco's great Italian restaurants and tell the chef how to make his alfredo sauce. But then, you knew what I meant.

And yes, companies do change. DirecTVs lease model of doing business is less than five years old. If your vote is a protest one and an attempt to show them the way, then I applaud you. If you realistically expected them to change their entire business plan just for you, then that is narcissistic. But in this case, I think I know what you really meant.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

jbrasure said:


> I know one thing: Companies do change, and they do adapt to customer's demands over time. It's up to us to tell them what we want. Maybe someday D* will listen. I hope so. I'll be patient.
> 
> And yes, I do tell the chef how spicy I want my food. If the scale is 1 -10, I ask for 15.


You make the best point of the thread here, if this really bothers you, than dont subscribe, if enough people are bothered by this the policy will change, however I suspect that despite the vocal minority on this website, the vast majority of customers do not have an issue with the contracts and as such the way that the business is done is not going to drastically change. The simple fact is that even if folks from DirecTv are reading this thread they are going to see that at best this is a 50/50 issue. The real issue is that the commitment model has been around for a while certainly long enough and there just doesnt seem to be a mass exodus of disgruntled customers.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

stogie5150 said:


> With all due respect, you are wrong. I personally got dinged with it when I replaced a SD TIVO with a r15. When I cancelled, I asked when my contract started last, it was the r15, NOT the HR20 I had gotten five months before. I didn't have the Protection plan, and it was a replacement of an owned receiver, and all I paid was shipping.


Then, I'm sorry to say, you got screwed since they didn't tell you about the committment extension, which is about par for the course with DirecTV's customer service. There is a whole thread about committment extensions and what will and will not create a new one:

http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=119756

Owned receivers are treated differently. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that your friend was dealing with a leased receiver since most HR2xs are leased, in which case I stand by my original statement that he can get a replacement without extending his committment. Good luck, I hope he can get it replaced and find a working one... it can be a nightmare sometimes - I went through 3 HR2x's before getting a working one for the living room. The one in the bedroom worked flawlessly out of the box. Go figure.


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## chrisexv6 (Sep 14, 2002)

Is it just me, or would life have been a whole lot easier for D* if they just left the mirroring fee a mirroring fee? Instead of calling it "lease fee"?

The only real additional cost involved is the initial cost of the receiver. Cable charges you a rental for your boxes (in fact Im not even sure the first box is "free"), heck, around here they even charge a rental on the REMOTE CONTROL. So the only difference is that you pay for a D* box first (and even thats questionable, depending on CSR, what box you want, etc)

I got 2 HR20s, one came out to about 60 bux and one came out to 99. 159.00 to have 2 HD-DVRs, who cares about the "lease" fee that I would be paying regardless of if I had D*, cable, etc. And if it really bothers you, you can buy an HD-DVR outright for 600 bux or so. Lets see....600.00 - 99 (my most expensive HR20) = 500.00. Thats 100 months of "lease fee" saved. 100 months = ~8 years to break even. Yep, leasing it is!!

If everyone bought their first HD box way back in 2002 like a lot of the early adopters (my Samsung box cost almost 700 bux, and again I paid the "additional receiver" fee on top of that every month), I think there wouldnt be many people balking at the 199 up front and 5.00/month additional.

-Chris


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^Good point. I hate to think how much my SD Sony SAT-B2 receiver cost me, cash, years ago. $200, was it? It might have been $300. Now I can lease a HD DVR for two years for the same amount of money.


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## durl (Mar 27, 2003)

jbrasure said:


> The problem is that DirecTV and the HR-20 can't realistically be evaluated in the store. I could evaluate the picture quality, and the HR-20 UI. However, I would have no clue about the day-to-day reliability of the HR-20. That's my real concern.


But at least they can be evaluated. Most items cannot. Major kitchen appliances, or even smaller ones, cannot be tested. Computer components, tools, etc.? We're left to determine reliability by reports from others. Still, I'm no different in that I really want to know how something is going to hold up over the long haul.

Of course, I may have no problem with a commitment because I'm very happy with the virtually flawless performance of my HR20, HR21, and R15. Even so, that would mean my experience would lead someone to believe that the equipment is very good and recommended.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

I have no problem with the commitment... I am not going anywhere! Cable is not a viable option, I had it for 5 days... Worst 5 days of my TV viewing life, I prefer my DirecTv equipment to my parents' DishNOTwork equipment, No FIOS. Plus I am very Happy with my DirecTv service.... Now DBSTaslk and their crap... well that's a different story....... (Kidding)


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Even Best Buy doesn't allow returns on big screens right after the Super Bowl. They have been burned by too many Super Bowl parties.

There is a natural ebb and flow between "try it - you'll like it" and "no returns" attitudes. Forty years ago, you never bought something unless you planned to keep it. You only returned it if it didn't work. Then came along good companies like Nordstrom and Target that found success in having a very liberal return policy. That works. I ran my stereo store that way. While we had an official two week refund/one month exchange policy, we rarely enforced it. Why have an upset customer over $100? It doesn't make any sense.

Over the past five years, I've noticed companies tightening up their return policies quite a bit. People were abusing them. I know of one person on this board who rarely buys a new model. He just shops at stores that allow liberal returns, and as soon as something is discontinued, he returns the old piece for the latest generation. That's just plain wrong and an abuse of the system.

I have to admit, a basic credo in my life is that I won't buy something unless I plan to keep it. I think that is only fair to the retailer. If it doesn't work for me, fine, I'll return it. My intention, though, at the check-out counter, is to keep the piece. But then, I was a retailer myself for thirty years, and I'm hardly unbiased in this matter.

Purchasing consumer electronics isn't like living with someone for a year before you get married.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> ^Good point. I hate to think how much my SD Sony SAT-B2 receiver cost me, cash, years ago. $200, was it? It might have been $300. Now I can lease a HD DVR for two years for the same amount of money.


"$200?" :lol: 
When I came to DirecTV it was for HD and I paid $800 for a Sony SAT HD200, and then had the biggest POS I've ever brought into my house. It took 18 months for Sony "to fix it" with a HD300 [which at the time was only $350].
Fast forward to my first H20-600 and it started all over again.  
Now, for the past year, I'm


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

jbrasure said:


> I don't know about you, but I have never read fine print that was simple.


I don't know about anyone else, but I have NEVER signed anything without first reading all of the fine print.

Carl


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Carl Spock said:


> I have to admit, a basic credo in my life is that I won't buy something unless I plan to keep it. I think that is only fair to the retailer. If it doesn't work for me, fine, I'll return it. My intention, though, at the check-out counter, is to keep the piece. But then, I was a retailer myself for thirty years, and I'm hardly unbiased in this matter.


I agree completely. I also will not go into a local retailer and evaluate a product in detail, then order it on-line to save a couple of bucks. If I take advantage of a retailer's showroom and inventory to make my buying decision, then I'll spend my money with that retailer. If I'm going to buy on-line, then I'll do my evaluation on-line.

Carl


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

carl6 said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but I have NEVER signed anything without first reading all of the fine print.
> 
> Carl


I do too. It annoys the hell out of car dealers and others with boilerplate contracts. They're waiting for a signature so they can move on, and I'm reading.

I suppose it would have also annoyed the DirecTV installer who installed my R15, if he had actually given me a contract to read and sign.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

Take it or leave it. I decided to take it and couldn't be happier.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

chrisexv6 said:


> Is it just me, or would life have been a whole lot easier for D* if they just left the mirroring fee a mirroring fee? Instead of calling it "lease fee"?


Perhaps they must have a lease fee in order to require the return of the receiver when you stop service.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> Perhaps they must have a lease fee in order to require the return of the receiver when you stop service.


Some states charge tax on leases.


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

chrisexv6 said:


> I got 2 HR20s, one came out to about 60 bux and one came out to 99. 159.00 to have 2 HD-DVRs, who cares about the "lease" fee that I would be paying regardless of if I had D*, cable, etc. And if it really bothers you, you can buy an HD-DVR outright for 600 bux or so. Lets see....600.00 - 99 (my most expensive HR20) = 500.00. Thats 100 months of "lease fee" saved. 100 months = ~8 years to break even. Yep, leasing it is!!


There's a logical error in your math. Owning the receiver saves you _nothing_ on a monthly basis:
* Leased receivers (except the first) $4.99 per month _lease_ fee
* Owned receivers (except the first) $4.99 per months _additional receiver_ fee

Owning the equipment saves you _nothing_ on a monthly basis (you would _never_ "break even"), costs a _lot_ more upfront (at least if you buy it directly from D* instead of used), and typically (for new receivers) only has a 90-day warranty instead of lifetime warranty for leased receivers..


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Why do we tolerate the DTV contract?*

Honestly, because I just don't care. Been with DirecTV for 12 years and with Charter as the only other real option, well, I'll be with DirecTV for another 12 years. Put me on a 5 year commitment for all I care. They give me the channels I want at a cheaper price then anyone else and a DVR that records them. What more do I need that would cause me to leave?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Excellent point, Scott. I'll add my "+1" to that. 

Maybe you all don't think I'm objective just because I help run a user forum, but remember I'm a guy like all of you. 

I have a choice, and in my neck of the woods I could choose Time Warner, Dish, FiOS, or just get a standalone DVR and enjoy the 30 or so channels of OTA I've got.

DIRECTV doesn't pay me to like them, DBSTalk doesn't pay me. I get a bill every month just like you and I pay it just like you. 

I choose to be with DIRECTV and like Scott I don't care the length of the contract because I have to ask... who's better? Who has more HD? Who has The Cutting Edge? Who listens to their users, who is putting themselves out there like DIRECTV? And in my neighborhood... here's the kicker... what's cheaper? Only going the OTA route. 

As a good friend of mine around here says occasionally, Just my $.02 /s


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## rabit ears (Nov 18, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Some states charge tax on leases.


You bring up a very interesting point.

Years ago I ran a news wire service and we leased the teleprinters to our customers. Every year I'd get a couple of dozen bills from various backwaters demanding that I pay property tax on the equipment. With very few exceptions, we used our first amendment status to tell them to take a hike.

That seems to have changes and so while we have freedom of the press, the courts have decided that that freedom doesn't apply to taxes.

So, my question is: Does anyone know if D* pays property tax on the equipment?

If they don't and some of these folks in government suffering from the down economy see this as a revenue opportunity might we see the end of the lease program?

Just wondering.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> *Why do we tolerate the DTV contract?*
> 
> Honestly, because I just don't care. Been with DirecTV for 12 years and with Charter as the only other real option, well, I'll be with DirecTV for another 12 years. Put me on a 5 year commitment for all I care. They give me the channels I want at a cheaper price then anyone else and a DVR that records them. What more do I need that would cause me to leave?


Lets say the DirecTv contract for Sunday Ticket is up and the NFL negotiates an exclusive contract with Dish. If you area big football fan then you might not be too happy with that 5 year contract you just agreed to.


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

Sirshagg said:


> Lets say the DirecTv contract for Sunday Ticket is up and the NFL negotiates an exclusive contract with Dish. If you area big football fan then you might not be too happy with that 5 year contract you just agreed to.


Considering E*'s distaste for even _non_-exclusive sports packages (MLB, anyone?) and their acrimony with the NFL in general, how likely do you consider this scenario? I may not be a gambling man, but even I'd take that bet.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Kheldar said:


> Considering E*'s distaste for even _non_-exclusive sports packages (MLB, anyone?) and their acrimony with the NFL in general, how likely do you consider this scenario?


If's called and example. 
I strongly doubt that would happen but something like it could.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

DCSholtis said:


> Well I never intend to cancel so I tend to overlook that part of the agreement.


You may never intend to cancel but this is the real world and things change.

Hopefully none of these happen to anyone!

You lose your job and have to take a lower paying job or,

It becomes a choice between D* and gas for the car and electric & gas for the house or

a medical emergency wipes you out or

Food for the table or D* or

your place of employment closes or moves out of state or......

I know that between energy costs and food costs going up, I have a lot less disposible income than previously. My old job I had for 14+ years moved out of state. I got a choice of a decent severence pay or going to the new state with no expenses paid and a lower pay scale, Loss of vaction and senority.

I've had this current job for 12+ years and if it goes, lots of luck to me finding a decent job these days. I get a steady stream of people looking for work doing what I'm doing coming through.

Bottom line, yeah I worry about commitments.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> You may never intend to cancel but this is the real world and things change.
> 
> Hopefully none of these happen to anyone!
> 
> ...


Then cable is a better choice for you.

One of my friends hit on hard times last year, and DirecTV allowed them to suspend their service.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

TBoneit said:


> You may never intend to cancel but this is the real world and things change.
> 
> Hopefully none of these happen to anyone!
> 
> ...


While I certainly empathize with anyone in those circumstances, there are options available. You can suspend the account and if need be the suspension can be extended at DirecTv discretion. And certainly if things got bad enough, a 480 dollar ETF would most likely be the least of the concerns. And I suspect those concerns apply to any ETF, cellular, DSL, etc. I hope I never have to make those choices.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> They give me the channels I want at a cheaper price then anyone else and a DVR that records them


Yes, but unfortunately that's not true for everybody. I had a HR-20 back when I was with DirecTV previously, and it frequently didn't record programs, or at least not correctly. That's why I'm leery of signing up for another 2-year contract.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

If you have already had an HR-20, you have already had your test drive, and unless you paid the ETF, you were with them for 2 years. If you were happy enough b4, why did you leave, and if you were unhappy b4, why are you even considering coming back now?

Coming back means you are also not a new customer again, but a returning customer, and might not be subject to the same offers as a true new customer.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Could someone please change the first word of the title to "why"?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I have done so, as I see the original poster has changed post #1 to read that way.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I have done so, as I see the original poster has changed post #1 to read that way.


Thank you!


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

bonscott87 said:


> *Why do we tolerate the DTV contract?*
> 
> Honestly, because I just don't care. Been with DirecTV for 12 years and with Charter as the only other real option, well, I'll be with DirecTV for another 12 years. Put me on a 5 year commitment for all I care. They give me the channels I want at a cheaper price then anyone else and a DVR that records them. What more do I need that would cause me to leave?


I agree with what you are saying and pretty much feel the same way except for one issue: the world we live in is constantly changing and two years is a long time. Some examples that might make one reconsider being under a commitment:

•	D* could lose a satellite (through natural or other causes) and no longer be able to provide the full gamut of channels they do now. 
•	Some great new service (or even your local cable company) could come along that totally blows D* out of the water and for less money.
•	Your current financial situation could change.
•	You could be required to move to another home where D* is not available due to LOS issues.
•	D* could get in a dispute with a content provider and stop carrying their broadcasts.
•	D* could come out with some great new service or equipment but only offer it (or make it price-competitive) to "new" subscribers or those that qualify for retention incentives.
•	D* could change some part of its contract or service offerings in such a way that very negatively affects your enjoyment of it.


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

rudeney said:


> I agree with what you are saying and pretty much feel the same way except for one issue: the world we live in is constantly changing and two years is a long time. Some examples that might make one reconsider being under a commitment:
> 
> • D* could lose a satellite (through natural or other causes) and no longer be able to provide the full gamut of channels they do now.
> • Some great new service (or even your local cable company) could come along that totally blows D* out of the water and for less money.
> ...


All of those reasons have some degree of merit. But, new technology generally doesn't happen overnight. If one is paying attention, there's usually some forewarning. Maybe not two years worth, but enough time that you can make plans not to upgrade until the technology arrives, thereby minimizing your early termination fees.

DirecTV has procedures in place for failures... so there might be a hiccup in the programming, but unless a major catastrophe happened, chances are it wouldn't be permanent.

The possibility always exists that programming may change, or technology may change, but if my options are to pay $500 for a DVR and have no committment or pay $200 for the DVR and be in a 2 year committment, I'll take the committment.

Chances are good that I'll be here the whole 2 years, and every month I'm here that ETF goes down.

To me, I'd rather pay less now and figure out how to pay the termination if by some odd chance I decide I have to leave. Otherwise, I pay the full price for the DVR, and if I'm still here in 2 years, then it means I spent $300 I didn't have to.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> If you have already had an HR-20, you have already had your test drive, and unless you paid the ETF, you were with them for 2 years. If you were happy enough b4, why did you leave, and if you were unhappy b4, why are you even considering coming back now?
> 
> Coming back means you are also not a new customer again, but a returning customer, and might not be subject to the same offers as a true new customer.


It's been a couple of years since I used the HR-20, and I keep hearing that it's better now. That's why I'd like to try it again. However, I had a BAD experience with it earlier, so I'm understandably paranoid about getting into a long commitment.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

rudeney said:


> •	You could be required to move to another home where D* is not available due to LOS issues.


This happened to us once. When we moved to a new home we didn't think we had a clear view of the southern sky, and we were still under contract. Sure enough, when the installer arrived he couldn't find a location. But as it turned out, D* waived the charge under this circumstance. Not sure if that is/was official policy or someone was just being nice, but at least in my case, this didn't trigger the fee.

A few months later, after suffering through HORRIBLE service and picture with TWC, I had a tree service prune the large tree causing most of the problems, leaving a "lane" for the dish to see through. As soon as I had that, I called D* and reupped. I paid $300 to the tree guys in order to ditch TWC and it was worth every cent.


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## FlBillsfan (Apr 23, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Excellent point, Scott. I'll add my "+1" to that.
> 
> Maybe you all don't think I'm objective just because I help run a user forum, but remember I'm a guy like all of you.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, except & unless DTV takes away my ability to receive HD. (I do not have HDMI on my 1080i HDTV.) In that event I will be HAPPY I have no commitment, & will go with a HD TIVO OTA.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

FlBillsfan said:


> I agree with you, except & unless DTV takes away my ability to receive HD. (I do not have HDMI on my 1080i HDTV.) In that event I will be HAPPY I have no commitment, & will go with a HD TIVO OTA.


*IF* receiving HD programming becomes impossible except over HDMI (due to DRM or HDCP), it will be because of restrictions placed by the studios and originators of the programs, not DIRECTV. If that happens, it will also happen for cable, other satellite, and OTA. DIRECTV is not the one who is insisting on copy protection and DRM.


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## FlBillsfan (Apr 23, 2008)

Smuuth said:


> *IF* receiving HD programming becomes impossible except over HDMI (due to DRM or HDCP), it will be because of restrictions placed by the studios and originators of the programs, not DIRECTV. If that happens, it will also happen for cable, other satellite, and OTA. DIRECTV is not the one who is insisting on copy protection and DRM.


It may happen with cable & dish, but from everything I have read it won't happen with OTA. Worst case, you are right & it also affects OTA I guess I will be using a HD TIVO OTA that downreses so I only get SD. I will at least not be paying DTV or anyone else well over $100/ mo for SD programing. I think I will start checking into a HD tuner NOW before all this comes down. I don't think there is anyway they can disable a tuner with no Sat. or phone input. What do you all think about this? I would miss the DVR but I'd rather have HD than DVR & no HD.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

TBoneit said:


> You may never intend to cancel but this is the real world and things change.
> Hopefully none of these happen to anyone!


Those are certainly grim possibilities, but keep in mind that you are not required to keep any particular package to fulfill the comittment. You could drop to a small package and fulfill the comittment, while keeping one of the most cost-effective means of entertainment there is, if you had any extra money at all.

It is also possible to suspend one's account for several months until things improve.


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## Nightfall (Sep 1, 2003)

paulman182 said:


> Those are certainly grim possibilities, but keep in mind that you are not required to keep any particular package to fulfill the comittment. You could drop to a small package and fulfill the comittment, while keeping one of the most cost-effective means of entertainment there is, if you had any extra money at all.
> 
> It is also possible to suspend one's account for several months until things improve.


People who complain about contracts tend to overlook this. I know a few people who lost their jobs, called Directv, and Directv offered to help by suspending their service for 6 months or dropping them to a cheaper package. They opted for suspended service. It worked out well because 5 months later he got a new job and turned the service back on.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

Nightfall said:


> People who complain about contracts tend to overlook this. I know a few people who lost their jobs, called Directv, and Directv offered to help by suspending their service for 6 months or dropping them to a cheaper package. They opted for suspended service. It worked out well because 5 months later he got a new job and turned the service back on.


Not only that, but there have also been stories where not only DirecTv suspended the account for 6 months, but the extended the suspension because the situation had not changed.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

jimb726 said:


> Not only that, but there have also been stories where not only DirecTv suspended the account for 6 months, but the extended the suspension because the situation had not changed.


It would be stupid not to be accommodating in this case from a business standpoint. If someone can't afford to pay they can't afford to pay -- blood from a rock and all that -- and when they get back on their feet and can afford your services again, you want them back as a paying customer. As a business you'd have a hard time winning back their business if you insisted on burying them with hundreds of dollars in fees when they could least afford to pay it.


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## jimb726 (Jan 9, 2007)

ziggy29 said:


> It would be stupid not to be accommodating in this case from a business standpoint. If someone can't afford to pay they can't afford to pay -- blood from a rock and all that -- and when they get back on their feet and can afford your services again, you want them back as a paying customer. As a business you'd have a hard time winning back their business if you insisted on burying them with hundreds of dollars in fees when they could least afford to pay it.


Oh I absolutely agree with you. Also I know that in my life, I am a lot more loyal to the companies that will work with me when I need the help. I was out of work for 5 months a couple of years ago after breaking my back. We called everyone that we did business with and everyone helped out with flxible payment schedules, etc. Except for Capital One. So as soon as we could, we paid off the card and promptly called and canceled the card. By myself I am sure I mean nothing to them, but you can be darn sure I tell everyone I know the story as well as recommend everyone that helped us through the tough time.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

My all time favorite salesman's phrase is:

*You can kill the calf once. You can fleece a sheep many times.*

Most good companies operate this way.


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## Smuuth (Oct 4, 2005)

FlBillsfan said:


> It may happen with cable & dish, but from everything I have read it won't happen with OTA. Worst case, you are right & it also affects OTA I guess I will be using a HD TIVO OTA that downreses so I only get SD. I will at least not be paying DTV or anyone else well over $100/ mo for SD programing. I think I will start checking into a HD tuner NOW before all this comes down. I don't think there is anyway they can disable a tuner with no Sat. or phone input. What do you all think about this? I would miss the DVR but I'd rather have HD than DVR & no HD.


You are correct in that OTA reception of HD with an ATSC tuner will still be available. What the restrictions will limit is the ability to record HD programming to external media. Many HD capable monitors manufactured in the last few years only have component inputs. I am hoping that analog HD through component is not going to be disabled for anyone but I am not optimistic. Even most upconverting DVD players only allow 480p output over component.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

FlBillsfan said:


> It may happen with cable & dish, but from everything I have read it won't happen with OTA. Worst case, you are right & it also affects OTA I guess I will be using a HD TIVO OTA that downreses so I only get SD. I will at least not be paying DTV or anyone else well over $100/ mo for SD programing. I think I will start checking into a HD tuner NOW before all this comes down. I don't think there is anyway they can disable a tuner with no Sat. or phone input. What do you all think about this? I would miss the DVR but I'd rather have HD than DVR & no HD.


I could be wrong about this, however I seem to remember reading on some Video forums I belong to that all current products on the market be they a DVD recorder, DVR or Tuner card must honor teh broadcast flag. Thus whatever you buy would also downres or no record unless you could find modified software / firmware that would ingnore the BC Flag.

BTW on the other I guess I'm, lucky that I can get D*, E*, Cable, and Fios for TV and Dialup or cable or Fios for internet. Basic cable for example is $8.95 plus all the Govt' fees that get tacked on. If I had to I could drop to basic cable (yech!) and use my DVD recorder and S-VHS deck. The DVD recorder having a hard drive I could record while watching something previously recorded. It even has 30sec, 60sec, 1.5 minutes, 3 minutes, 5 or 10 minutes skip off of the hard drive or DVD. So it could be worse. For now I can handle the price increases however I can forsee a day coming if energy costs keep going up where I might just drop all of the premium movie channels and later on down the road drop a subscription package lower to save more money.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Nightfall said:


> People who complain about contracts tend to overlook this. I know a few people who lost their jobs, called Directv, and Directv offered to help by suspending their service for 6 months or dropping them to a cheaper package. They opted for suspended service. It worked out well because 5 months later he got a new job and turned the service back on.


Which makes me wonder do they want leased equipment back or do the want the rental fee at least or do they just suspend things and you keep the equipment hooked up at no charge til the suspension is over?


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## FlBillsfan (Apr 23, 2008)

TBoneit said:


> I could be wrong about this, however I seem to remember reading on some Video forums I belong to that all current products on the market be they a DVD recorder, DVR or Tuner card must honor teh broadcast flag. Thus whatever you buy would also downres or no record unless you could find modified software / firmware that would ingnore the BC Flag.
> 
> BTW on the other I guess I'm, lucky that I can get D*, E*, Cable, and Fios for TV and Dialup or cable or Fios for internet. Basic cable for example is $8.95 plus all the Govt' fees that get tacked on. If I had to I could drop to basic cable (yech!) and use my DVD recorder and S-VHS deck. The DVD recorder having a hard drive I could record while watching something previously recorded. It even has 30sec, 60sec, 1.5 minutes, 3 minutes, 5 or 10 minutes skip off of the hard drive or DVD. So it could be worse. For now I can handle the price increases however I can forsee a day coming if energy costs keep going up where I might just drop all of the premium movie channels and later on down the road drop a subscription package lower to save more money.


I can understand how they could disable a TIVO through the software because it is connected to a phone line, but how could they disable a tuner hooked up to a TV that has no Sat. or phone input?


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

FlBillsfan said:


> I can understand how they could disable a TIVO through the software because it is connected to a phone line, but how could they disable a tuner hooked up to a TV that has no Sat. or phone input?


ahhh, HDMI....

you DO know the REAL reason HDMI was invented wasn't better picture (DVI was in fact as good or better) but because it allowed for better copyright protection so that devices using HDMI can have a "do not record this program" bit in it that disables your HDMI-enabled recording device from recording it...think of it as a little guy in your DVD burner who sees the FBI warning and refuses to work.

The digital signal ITSELF contains the "record/do not record" bit. It is imbedded in the picture.

Hooray for digital! Hooray for HDMI......


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> All of those reasons have some degree of merit. But, new technology generally doesn't happen overnight. If one is paying attention, there's usually some forewarning. Maybe not two years worth, but enough time that you can make plans not to upgrade until the technology arrives, thereby minimizing your early termination fees.


I disagree. There a lot of technology advances that could happen very quickly. One example, maybe they finally get MRV working, but only on the latest HR2x model. Since I'm under commitment and have original HR20-700's, I'll be out of luck to get upgraded for a reasonable fee and I have no leverage to negotiate.



> DirecTV has procedures in place for failures... so there might be a hiccup in the programming, but unless a major catastrophe happened, chances are it wouldn't be permanent.


I would hope so, but who knows if N. Korea will start testing missiles and "accidentally" knock a D* satellite out of the sky.



> The possibility always exists that programming may change, or technology may change, but if my options are to pay $500 for a DVR and have no committment or pay $200 for the DVR and be in a 2 year committment, I'll take the committment.


I don't believe you have that choice. There really is no officially published policy you can point to regarding when D* puts you under commitment. We "assume" that activating "owned" equipment does not extend a commitment, but I believe that most of the time is does, and most of the time D* refuses to "fix" it. Not only that, I believe it is 100% impossible to become a new customer without a commitment regardless of how the equipment was obtain and installed.



> Chances are good that I'll be here the whole 2 years, and every month I'm here that ETF goes down.
> 
> To me, I'd rather pay less now and figure out how to pay the termination if by some odd chance I decide I have to leave. Otherwise, I pay the full price for the DVR, and if I'm still here in 2 years, then it means I spent $300 I didn't have to.


I agree that each month does reduce the ETF, and it also helps to "amortize" what you paid in up-front leasing fees. However, I believe a pricing model that somehow would allow new customers to try the service without getting $600 or more "in the hole" would be much better.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Joxxk said:


> You wanna talk "greed"? go look in the mirror.. see if that scares you too! No really.... your wanting to try out something that sells very well! It's the best, take my word for it.


Well I finally decided to give D* another try in spite of my fears about the long contract. I've had the HR21 installed for 6 hours, and guess what? It's already locked up 5 times while I was flipping through the menus. Joxxk, is that your idea of "the best"?

It looks like I'm in for a long 2 year contract. Hopefully the software updates will fix this soon.


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## MountainMan10 (Jan 31, 2008)

If your HR21 is locking up you need to get it replaced. The vast majority do not lock up. If it is locking up the box is bad or there is a problem with the installation.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Well I finally decided to give D* another try in spite of my fears about the long contract. I've had the HR21 installed for 6 hours, and guess what? It's already locked up 5 times while I was flipping through the menus. Joxxk, is that your idea of "the best"?
> 
> It looks like I'm in for a long 2 year contract. Hopefully the software updates will fix this soon.


If you have only had it for six hours I think you can still return it and get out of the new commitment. That way you could switch to Dish Network or cable.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

JB -- I am a bit confused. You posted today (12:19 AM PT) that you've had DirecTV for about 6 hours. But yesterday at 2:10 PM PT you started a thread asking if DirecTV would solve some problems you had with Comcast and saying you were considering switching to DirecTV.

Did you make the decision to switch and arrange for installation and get the installation completed after 2 PM on a Sunday? Or did you already have the installation scheduled, and start the other thread because you were getting cold feet?


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

jbrasure said:


> Well I finally decided to give D* another try in spite of my fears about the long contract. I've had the HR21 installed for 6 hours, and guess what? It's already locked up 5 times while I was flipping through the menus. Joxxk, is that your idea of "the best"?
> 
> It looks like I'm in for a long 2 year contract. Hopefully the software updates will fix this soon.


First off, Direct will replace the receiver with no charges if it is having problems from the get go.

Secondly, you are able to get out of your contract, by law, within the first x days (I believe it is 30) if it is not to your satisfaction.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

runner26 said:


> I have a very simple question. Why do the tivo based boxes work and the HRxx do not. It seems to me that Directv should address this in an open forum instead of telling us they are working on it. These boxes are still not right after two years. Why no answer from Directv?


DirecTV's answer is The Cutting Edge program and the best just keeps getting better.:sure:


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> You tell 'em. Geez! People are *SO* out of line wanting to test drive a product before making what to many is a large and long committment.


I tried to suggest that to my bride to be?.No Luck!


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

DodgerKing said:


> Secondly, you are able to get out of your contract, by law, within the first x days (I believe it is 30) if it is not to your satisfaction.


That is a commonly misunderstood "law" -- in truth, it doesn't apply in this case. The law you are talking about is the "The Cooling-Off Rule" (PDF), which states:


> If you buy something at a store and later change your mind, you may not be able to return the merchandise. But if you buy an item in your home or at a location that is not the seller's permanent place of business, you may have the option.


There are a lot of exceptions to that rule:


> Some types of sales cannot be canceled even if they do occur in locations normally covered by the Rule. The Cooling-Off Rule does not cover sales that:
> • are under $25;
> • are for goods or services not primarily intended for personal, family or household purposes. (The Rule applies to courses of instruction or training.);
> • are made entirely by mail or telephone;
> ...


So, there is really no _federal_ rule about this, although there may be individual state rules that cover this situation.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

rustynails said:


> I agree. Go back to Dish. They have the best DVR and at the best price, FREE!


Until Tivo get's done with them.


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## STEVED21 (Feb 6, 2006)

runner26 said:


> I have a very simple question. Why do the tivo based boxes work and the HRxx do not. It seems to me that Directv should address this in an open forum instead of telling us they are working on it. These boxes are still not right after two years. Why no answer from Directv?


They do work. I have 11 dvrs, including 4 HR series. They all work as they are designed. I don't get lock ups, missed recordings etc. It seems that there is a small minority of people with these issues. They come here to vent. Very few would post in a thread -- " hey-all my equipment works!". Maybe we should start one to show the disparity.

What were your issues with the HR. I'm sure a number of people here would have a solution.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

jbrasure said:


> Well I finally decided to give D* another try in spite of my fears about the long contract. I've had the HR21 installed for 6 hours, and guess what? It's already locked up 5 times while I was flipping through the menus. Joxxk, is that your idea of "the best"?
> 
> It looks like I'm in for a long 2 year contract. Hopefully the software updates will fix this soon.


I would suggest a reformat.If that doesn't work replace it.


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## jbrasure (Oct 9, 2006)

Upstream said:


> JB -- I am a bit confused. You posted today (12:19 AM PT) that you've had DirecTV for about 6 hours. But yesterday at 2:10 PM PT you started a thread asking if DirecTV would solve some problems you had with Comcast and saying you were considering switching to DirecTV.
> 
> Did you make the decision to switch and arrange for installation and get the installation completed after 2 PM on a Sunday? Or did you already have the installation scheduled, and start the other thread because you were getting cold feet?


I don't blame you for being confused.  My situation is slightly unique. I already had the 5 LNB dish installed from 18 months ago, so I didn't need an installation yesterday. I just went down to Best Buy to pick up the HR21 and hooked it up myself.

Although now I think I'll ask DirecTV to come out and verify my installation after all.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Since the HR series (and specifically MPEG4/KA signals) is new to you, you do need to verify a few things with the installation that you didn't have before:

1) If you are using a multiswitch is it the newer KA cabable ones? Should be a WB68 most likely.
2) Do you have the BBC's installed on the back of the receiver?
3) Do you have OTA diplexed into your sat lines somewhere? You cannot diplex in (in general) with the new KA signals.
4) Are you getting good signals across the board on all sats? I'm talking 90+ signal strength.

Basically check these things and post a new thread with your troubles in the HD DVR forum so that it doesn't get lost here. There are several people here that would be willing to help.


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