# combining remote control and dish signals



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

hi guys -

i know i have seen this thread somewhere and i guess i wasnt using the correct wording to search the previous threads.

our house is set up using the modulator built into the 622 to distribute the dish signal.

i am adding another tv in an area that i have trouble using the remote control.

i believe that i can "extend the range" of the remotes by combining the coax coming from the "remote antenna" output on the back of the 622 with the coax that sends the signal through the "home distribution" output on the back of the 622.

the question is - can i use two "splitters" to combine and then separate the signals - or do i need to use two "diplexers" to do the combining and splitting? 

and if diplexers are needed - what gets hooked up to what?

thanks,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> hi guys -
> 
> i know i have seen this thread somewhere and i guess i wasn't using the correct wording to search the previous threads.
> 
> ...


I had a similar problem that was solved by adding a short piece of coax and putting the remote antenna next to the 622 instead of in back. I also get longer range (separate floor 40 ft away) by adding an in-line 6 dB attenuator between the coax and the remote antenna. I know it sounds illogical to do, but the attenuator reduces other RF sources in your area that are interfering with the remote. The problem is not remote signal strength, but signal/noise ratio which the attenuator improves.

If this does not work, use a simple splitter/combiner with the "input" connected to the receiver remote connection with a short piece of coax, and the "outputs" connected to coax cables to your two remote antennas. RF Splitters work as combiners as well as splitters even if not listed as a combiner. (The splitter is a passive device that works in both directions.)

Paul

I'd be hesitant about using diplexors because I don't know what freqency the remote uses and it could interfere with the channel you selected for your home distribution system (I'm using cable channel 73 for distribution to 3 analog tvs with no problems so far.


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> I had a similar problem that was solved by adding a short piece of coax and putting the remote antenna next to the 622 instead of in back. I also get longer range (separate floor 40 ft away) by adding an in-line 6 dB attenuator between the coax and the remote antenna. I know it sounds illogical to do, but the attenuator reduces other RF sources in your area that are interfering with the remote. The problem is not remote signal strength, but signal/noise ratio which the attenuator improves.
> 
> If this does not work, use a simple splitter/combiner with the "input" connected to the receiver remote connection with a short piece of coax, and the "outputs" connected to coax cables to your two remote antennas. RF Splitters work as combiners as well as splitters even if not listed as a combiner. (The splitter is a passive device that works in both directions.)
> 
> ...


hi paul -

thanks for your response!

i already have a length of rg6 with an antenna at the end of it that i have positioned in a central hallway that does do a good job for the exisiting tv's on 3 different floors in our house.

my problem is with a tv location that is in a separate building about 100 ft from the house.

once i had the remote antenna working in the central hallway location, i took one of the dish remotes to that outside "remote" location and the remote did work at that time.

so i felt comfortable buying another tv for the that location and then yesterday when i hooked the tv up, the remote didnt work at the "remote" location.

like you suggested, i tried the attenuator, but that did not help.

now i will get some splitters and work on combining the antenna and tv signals on the one rg6 that goes to the "remote" location.

thanks again for taking the time to post a response to my situation!

gil


----------



## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

gilunionhall said:


> the question is - can i use two "splitters" to combine and then separate the signals - or do i need to use two "diplexers" to do the combining and splitting?


As both signals are UHF, you need a pair of splitters.


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

Hi Gil

I found this Dish UHF remotes use a freq of 369.5 MHz. There is a second harmonic at 739.03 MHz. 3dB bandwidth is about +/-100 kHz around the center freq. (Source: FCC OET filing, Grantee Code: DKN Product Code: FSK01 )

TV frequencies in your distribution system are:

VHF Band - Ch. 2 - 13 54 - 216 Mhz 
Low Band - VHF Ch. 2 - 6 59 - 88 Mhz 
UHF Band - UHF Ch. 14 - 69 471 - 801 Mhz 
VHF Band - VHF Ch. 7 - 13 175 - 216 Mhz 
Super Band - CATV Ch. 23 - 36 216 - 300 Mhz 
Hyper Band - CATV Ch. 37 - 62 300 - 456 Mhz 
Ultra Band - CATV Ch. 63 - 158 457 - 1002 Mhz

As long as you use a distribution channel in the UHF band away from 400 MHZ you should be ok. My original idea was to use two remote antennas on separate wires from the remote input.

To diplex onto your distribution network you need to attach a coax to the input of splitter from the distribution line and attach one output to your distribution system and the other output to the remote antenna input on the receiver.

You will need a second splitter at the remote location to attach the outputs to the tv in and a second remote antenna.

A diplexer would be better, but you would need one that would combine and separate the frequencies used for your distribution system and the dish remote.

Satellite diplexers are used to join and separate the sat frequencies Ghz range from TV signal MHz range.



gilunionhall said:


> hi paul -
> 
> thanks for your response!
> 
> ...


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> Hi Gil
> 
> As long as you use a distribution channel in the UHF band away from 400 MHZ you should be ok. My original idea was to use two remote antennas on separate wires from the remote input.
> 
> ...


hi paul -

i believe i misread your original email with what you were using the splitter for.

i use channels 75 and 77 for the distribution system for tv1 and tv2.

i am a little confused about one of your statements -

you said - "To diplex onto your distribution network " and then later in the sentence you said - "a coax to the input of splitter".

are you using diplexers or splitters?

if you need to use a diplexer, i wasnt aware that there was more than 1 type (when i looked for them at my local radio shack store)

i hope you don't mind having to simplify things a little more for my less than technically advanced mind.

thanks again,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> paulcdavis said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Gil
> ...


Gil,

Diplexing is a term that just refers to combining two signals at different frequencies on a single coax. A true diplexer has filters to keep the two frequency bands separated. A simple 1 to 2 tv coax splitter has no filters. The only diplexers that are commonly available (at Radio Shack) are to combine and separate Sat signals in the GHz range and OTA signals in the MHz range. The filters make sure there is no interference between the two frequency bands. One diplexer goes on the roof (for sat input and OTA antenna input, and the separator (diplexer in reverse) at the receiver separates the sat signal output and OTA signal output from the single cable.

Channel 75 and 77 are in the CATV (cable band range) and are both in the 500 Mhz range so they might interfere with the remote's RF frequency which is about 400 MHz. You should switch to channels 67 and 69 in the UHF band which are around 800 MHz and should not interfere with the 400MHz remote frequency. Or run another cable to your second location just for the additional Remote antenna and use a splitter at the receiver remote antenna input as I originally thought you wanted to do, and would be the best solution to guarantee no interference between the remote RF and your distribution signals.

Paul


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

paulcdavis said:


> Gil,
> 
> Diplexing is a term that just refers to combining two signals at different frequencies on a single coax. A true diplexer has filters to keep the two frequency bands separated. A simple 1 to 2 tv coax splitter has no filters. The only diplexers that are commonly available (at Radio Shack) are to combine and separate Sat signals in the GHz range and OTA signals in the MHz range. The filters make sure there is no interference between the two frequency bands. One diplexer goes on the roof (for sat input and OTA antenna input, and the separator (diplexer in reverse) at the receiver separates the sat signal output and OTA signal output from the single cable.
> 
> ...


Gil, you might also try this:

http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=228

It claims to increase the RF range to 200 ft. Might be easier, cheaper, and safer that diplexing onto your distribution system which could cause interference problems.

Paul


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

There is a diagram at http://ekb.dbstalk.com/uhfextend.htm


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

hi guys -

what did we used to do when we had problems before the internet?????

thanks for all the help so far - i am going to try using 2 splitters and see how that works - i'll let you know.

i have bookmarked the ekb.dbstalk.com site - there is a lot of info there!

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> hi guys -
> 
> what did we used to do when we had problems before the internet?????
> 
> ...


Before the Internet we could not help each other with problems unless we had a friend with the specific knowledge close by. Now we can help each other through forums such as this from anywhere in the world. As a 52 year old who used computers with punch cards in college, the change wrought by the Internet is astounding as well as the revolution and advances in PCs. At my first job in 1978, working on mini-computer systems, a 33 MByte disk drive had five platters, was the size of a washing machine, and cost $50,000. Now a 250 Gbyte drive is about the size of pack of cards and costs around $100.

I hope the splitters work. The other thing to remember is that the splitters will add insertion loss to your distribution system and to your remote antenna system You may have signal strength as well as possible interference problems.

As an electrical engineer who designed circuit boards for mini-computer systems, I had to deal with RF occasionally, although I mostly did computer system hardware design.

My recommendation as an engineer is to keep the distribution system separate from the remote antenna system. This way you will not have to change your distribution system channels .

If you get the remote antenna amplifier (range extender), Install it at your central remote antenna location, It has a disk logo, so it probably amplifies only the 400 MHz remote frequency range.

The principle is the same as adding an OTA antenna amplifier near your OTA antenna and running the cable from the roof antenna amp to your receiver.

Your existing remote antenna has some loss insertion from the coax you used to move it, and the real purpose of antenna amplifiers is to compensate for insertion loss caused by the cable. (Nothing in RF is free and every piece of coax , splitter, or connector adds insertion loss and makes the signal weaker.)

Let us know if anything works.


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> Gil, you might also try this:
> 
> http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=228
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------
hi paul -

i did buy one of these units from dishnetwork before i knew how the 6.2 remotes could be modifiied to work for tv1 and tv2 throughout the house.

apparently the dish sales person didnt know that the remotes could be modified and sold me one of the UHF PRO Platinum Plus UHF Upgrade Kits.

only after some research on this web site did i learn how to modify the remotes to do what i needed.

i need to go back and give that a try.

in addition i have a spare rg6 line running up to the 3rd story of our house , so i will also try that route to get the antenna higher before i do the combiner/splitter routine with the antenna and dish signals.

it will be a couple of days before i can spend some time trying the different possibilities. make sure you check back - maybe over the weekend.

thanks again,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> --------------------------------------------------
> hi paul -
> 
> i did buy one of these units from dishnetwork before i knew how the 6.2 remotes could be modifiied to work for tv1 and tv2 throughout the house.
> ...


Good luck with your project.

Where is the info on how to modify the 622 remotes? Mine works 50 ft from the antenna on a lower floor, but sometimes I have to point it at the ceiling to get it to work and would be interested in improving remote range. How did the remote amp work for you - did it help at all?

The old info screen Browse, themes, record does not seem to work on the 622 since the info page has multiple pages and is not like the old single info page on the 921 and earlier receivers.

Paul


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

BobaBird said:


> There is a diagram at http://ekb.dbstalk.com/uhfextend.htm


I tried the old info screen Browse, themes, record trick but it did not seem to work on the 622 multi page sysinfo screen as it did on the single page info screen on the 921 and earlier receivers. Does anyone know the trick code for the 622?

Thanks,

Paul

ps. The diagrams for diplexing a remote antenna on the distribution system are great and should help Gil allot.


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> Good luck with your project.
> 
> Where is the info on how to modify the 622 remotes? Mine works 50 ft from the antenna on a lower floor, but sometimes I have to point it at the ceiling to get it to work and would be interested in improving remote range. How did the remote amp work for you - did it help at all?
> 
> ...


hi paul -

when i am talking about modifying the remotes, i am taking a tv1 remote, which is IR and converting it to a UHF pro for tv1.

that way i can control tv1 from long distances and through and around walls - which is what the dish salesman said i needed to buy the remote extender amp kit for.

once i found that the dish guys sold me something i didnt really need, i really didnt give the remote amp a real good workout and it is sitting downstairs in the box.

am i making sense? - let me know and i can try to explain it another way.

if you want info on modifying the remotes, let me know - i need to look back and see what search words you need to use.

gil


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paul (and others) --

i tried using a remote antenna on the top floor of the house and it didnt work.

i tried the splitter routine and the antenna works fine.

as you suggested, the picture quality took a hit. but i used some cheap $3 splitters from walmart that i had laying around.

if i look for some higher quality splitters, what specs do i need to be aware of?

how about an amplifier for the tv signal?

thanks,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> paul (and others) --
> 
> i tried using a remote antenna on the top floor of the house and it didnt work.
> 
> ...


Hey Gil

The critical spec is insertion loss which can range from .5 to 5 dB. You may have to look on the Internet to find low insertion loss splitter/combiners. If all your TVs split from one location, your could use a TV distribution amp instead of a multiple output splitter. Radio shack sells these as well as others on the Internet.

Did you change the distribution channels you use? try to get as far away from the 400 MHz that the remote uses as possible.

See the following reference:

http://www.tvtower.com/Commercial Television Frequencies.html
Paul


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

hello paul

i havent had too much time recently to experiment with the dish remotes.

i did not change the distribution channels yet. we have 5 tv's that the dish signals are going to. i believe that definitely one and maybe 2 of the tv's had trouble receiving the signals in the "air mode" so i had to use the "cable mode" instead. (it's been about a year since i did all the set-ups)

so when i used the "cable mode" i chose 75 and 77 for the 2 distribution channels. 

how about if i went up as high as i could?

also - as far as signal strength and picture quality - when i originally hooked up the tv by itself in the separate building - the picture quality was not as good compared to what it was when it was hooked up to one of the "in-house" locations -- maybe the length of run to the remote location? 

would the "tv distribution amp" help this situation?

thanks,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> hello paul
> 
> i havent had too much time recently to experiment with the dish remotes.
> 
> ...


Hey Gil,

As long as the CATV channel is as far away from 400 MHz as possible it will lessen the chance of interference, but it seems like you have a signal level problem from two many splitters and too much cable loss. 75 and 77 are about 500 MHz so unless the dish remote is really poorly designed you should not have an interference problem.

A distribution amp instead of a splitter will get a stronger signal to your distant set. I hope you used RG-6 cable as RG-59 has more loss per foot than RG-6.

The remote amp you never used might work to boost the range to your distant set as long as you install it at the remote antenna location (not the receiver). This will both boost the 400 MHz remote signal and compensate for the cable loss from your 622 to the central remote antenna.

Paul


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> Hey Gil,
> 
> As long as the CATV channel is as far away from 400 MHz as possible it will lessen the chance of interference, but it seems like you have a signal level problem from two many splitters and too much cable loss. 75 and 77 are about 500 MHz so unless the dish remote is really poorly designed you should not have an interference problem.
> 
> ...


hello paul --

1. as far as "too many splitters" - when the tv is hooked up directly to the splitter with a short length of rg6 - the picture is good.

but when it is hooked up to end of the run at the remote location - there is noticeable degration of the signal. (and slightly more degredation when the 2 splitters are installed)

2. yes, we used rg-6.

3. maybe i am confused about the purpose of the "UHF PRO Platinum Plus UHF Upgrade Kit" i bought - and maybe we arent talking about the same piece of equipment?

i thought that the units purpose was to convert the tv1's IR signal to UHF so you can control tv1 remotely (like you can with the tv2 remotes)

there is a sensor that sticks on the face the 622 (over the tv1 remote control emmitter) and then a coax connector that goes to an antenna.

are we talking apples to apples??

thanks,

gil


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

hey paul -

i was telling a neighbor about the problem with the dish signals. 

he happened to have an old Archer 75 ohm UHF/VHF/FM amp laying around.

we installed it on the rg6 cable carrying the dish signal before it goes into the splitter/combiner (to be combined with the remote antenna).

the picture is a lot better than before (both with and without the remote antenna circuit being wired in).

i am not sure if the Archer amp unit is a good one - the neighbor is willing to sell it to me and i am wondering what the specs would be for one if i went out and bought a new one.

i did go around and check all the remotes and it seems as if everything is working ok - so i was going to hold off changing the distribution channels for the time being.

in several previous posts you mentioned that there might be some interference if i used channels 75/77 to distribute the signals - would the interference show up as the remote not working all the time or would the actual tv picture have some type of interference?

again, thanks for your help,

gil


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> hey paul -
> 
> i was telling a neighbor about the problem with the dish signals.
> 
> ...


Gil,

Interference between the remote frequency at 400 MHZ and your distribution channels at about 500 MHz (which is unlikely) would show up both as the remote not working as well as a noticeable effect on the TV set every time you pressed one of the remote buttons. If the picture is good and does not glitch when you press a remote button, and the remote works, you're all set. The Archer Amp is made by radio shack and is fine. It is your choice to use an older model or buy a new one. The important spec on TV signal amplifiers is the signal/ noise ratio of the amp. A higher signal/noise ratio amp will give you a cleaner signal.


----------



## paulcdavis (Jan 22, 2004)

gilunionhall said:


> hello paul --
> 
> 1. as far as "too many splitters" - when the tv is hooked up directly to the splitter with a short length of rg6 - the picture is good.
> 
> ...


Gil,

We may be talking apples and oranges. The product I was thinking of is an IR to RF remote extender at:

http://www.dishstore.net/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=228

and would only control TV1 unless you are in single mode and would be installed at the receiver.

The Archer TV signal amp could be used to boost the remote antenna range if installed at your central remote antenna location since it would probably amplify the frequency that the remote uses (about 400 MHz) unless is has filters to block the gap between VHF and UHF, but is close to CATV channel 54 and you might need a CATV signal amplifier.

Which may be different from the UHF upgrade kit that You bought.

Paul


----------



## gilunionhall (May 8, 2006)

paulcdavis said:


> Gil,
> 
> Interference between the remote frequency at 400 MHZ and your distribution channels at about 500 MHz (which is unlikely) would show up both as the remote not working as well as a noticeable effect on the TV set every time you pressed one of the remote buttons. If the picture is good and does not glitch when you press a remote button, and the remote works, you're all set. The Archer Amp is made by radio shack and is fine. It is your choice to use an older model or buy a new one. The important spec on TV signal amplifiers is the signal/ noise ratio of the amp. A higher signal/noise ratio amp will give you a cleaner signal.


hello paul -

per your comment --- "If the picture is good and does not glitch when you press a remote button, and the remote works, you're all set." --- i am satisfied with the reception and remote control operations at the remote location.

i am going to print all of our posts and put them with all of my other information that i have received at this web site.

Many, many thanks for your help!

gil


----------

