# Dual Buffers



## Que

*How DLB works on most other DVRs* (Change to the other tuner/buffer)



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.





> *HR20 does not save your pause point.*There really isn't a good workaround.


*List of some DVRs with DLB*

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD 
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

*If you feel strongly about DLB. Please copy and print this letter. Make sure to include your account number and name. *

Attention: President, D*

I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.

I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.

Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.

Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.

I'm writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.

I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV's plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.

Thank you for your time,

*[Letter #2]*

Dear Sir,

I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.

As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.

Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.

The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.

While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1. Dish Network - ViP622
2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
8. AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.

Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.

Sincerely,
Mail to:
*
Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550*



> Originally Posted by boltjames
> Can I impose upon someone to give me the backstory here? Why is this simple functional request such a political issue requiring segregated threads, thread closings, etc.?





cygnusloop said:


> I can give you my take, I suppose. (I want to preface this by saying that I realize that this is "just TV", but this is a DBS forum, and here, TV is everything. I have a life, a family, a job, and am reasonably fulfilled, with or without TV. So take this in the context of a TV based forum.)
> 
> One reason is the sheer number of users that want it. That certainly is part of it. A very large number of HR20 lessees, came to this box from either SD DirecTivos, or the HR10.
> 
> Particularly in the case of the HR10, the users were essentially forced to upgrade if they wanted to get their LiL's in HD. So, they get this box (that didn't work very well at the time), and it was inexplicably missing what many feel is a key feature, and at that, for no good reason. The thing has dual tuners, and the capability to record two HD streams, how was it possible that the designers neglected to include DLB?
> 
> Second, (and the part that I don't feel you yet appreciate, BJ) is how this particular feature changed forever the way many of us watch TV at a very basic level.
> 
> While, for me, DLB is most missed for sports programming, it was a feature that I used on a daily basis. Sure, I recorded lots of programs for later viewing. In fact, I would say most of my family's viewing was done that way. Primetime programs, movies, kids shows, etc...
> 
> But, I also like to surf. That's how I would typically find new programs I wanted to record. To me, and many others, surfing with DLB is television nirvana, and the Tivo implementation was really good. When I first discovered this feature, it was one of those "where have you been all my life" kind of moments, akin to the first time I hooked up my HDTV. Absolute bliss.
> 
> So that's another part of it, passion.
> 
> I understand, BJ, that you don't share that passion, but to understand why this topic is such a hot button, you have to realize that many do feel it, deep in their gut.
> 
> Lastly, the biggest source of annoyance, I think, to those that don't care about, or are actively against DLB (yeah, I'm looking at you JeremyW ), is the sheer number of threads that pop up. So, why do these DLB threads tend to crop up on an almost daily basis? Because most people coming to the HR20 are coming from another DVR, and most of those DVR's had DLB. Whether or not the user knew to call it that.
> 
> Many, perhaps even most, of the DLB threads come from a new member, one that recently upgraded to the HR20, and the OP is often a very innocent question such as, "How do I switch tuners on the HR20?"
> 
> Someone replies, "You can't."
> 
> The new member, not knowing the history of the "Great DLB Wars" on this forum, goes off on a rant about the lack of dual buffers, as it is such an obvious feature of a dual tuner device, that most new users would never think to check ahead of time to see if it exists on the HR20.
> 
> And the flame wars begin..... again.....
> 
> Some new members get so PO'd about this (remember the passion part), they start spamming completely unrelated threads with their displeasure about the lack of DLB. Not being invested in this forum, they don't care that their actions are contrary to the goals of this forum, and many of its members. The moderators (rightly) have to step in to close threads, or ban users, and that's where it gets political.
> 
> This is why I think the idea to have ONE sticky thread for all things DLB is a great idea. When a new member posts one of these "innocent" questions, they can be referred to the sticky, and the thread can be closed before things get out of hand. Once on the sticky, the new member can rant their brains out to a sympathetic audience. No fuss, no muss. No spamming, no bans.
> 
> At least that's my take. Thanks for listening.


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## anubys

I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...


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## tfederov

I said must have (I'm still in my comfy chair you told me to take, Earl!) but if it's 90% possible it'll never happen I don't think it's going to keep me from upgrading eventually.

1) DIRECTV will eventually be upgrading everything to MPEG-4
2) When that happens, my HD TiVos will be useless (OTA aside)
3) Making the jump sooner than later will help me get used to the idea dual live buffers are gone and the new DVR's features which the TiVo doesn't have might just actually be better.


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## HiDefGator

I asked my family members the other day how important they felt dual buffers were...not one of them even knew that was a feature.

While some serious couch potatoes might consider dual buffers a crucial feature my guess would be that the majority of users have never made use of them.

On the other hand every body said a 90 minute buffer would be a great improvement. Not that the two are mutually exclusive.


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## tfederov

Maybe we can think of the HR20 like pulling off a band-aid. Not having dual buffers for us that LOVE IT may hurt for a bit but that pain will go away and we will feel much better in the long run?


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## Herdfan

I know Earl can't say, but I would love to know D*'s reasons for *NOT* wanting to give them to us.

I could understanding if it is a technology or patent issue. But if the powers at D* just don't want to give them to us for some other reason such as they don't want us to buffer two football games and watch none of the FOX commercials, well then that would suck.


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## wilbur_the_goose

It's funny - Earl was talking about D* doing regression testing on the new TiVo 6.3 software for the HR10-250. I applaud D* for doing good regression testing.

So why then have they introduced a significant regression in the new HDDVR? NFL Sunday Ticket isn't worth anything without dual tuners (same goes for NHL Center Ice).

When I told my wife about the loss of dual buffers she asked if we should switch to Comcast and just visit the local restrauant for NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## Earl Bonovich

The lack of "Daul" live buffers... isn't new to the DirecTV DVR line.
The R15 hasn't had them since it's launch either.


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## mark_winn

And that is one of the reasons I have not switched to the R15. I want the dual buffers. I use them often. It allows me to time shift without recording. I also personally really like the TIVO suggestions. After some time of learning it really does a great job of recording what I like. I only set up season passes for things I know I don't want to miss.


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## Que

Herdfan said:


> I know Earl can't say, but I would love to know D*'s reasons for *NOT* wanting to give them to us.
> 
> I could understanding if it is a technology or patent issue. But if the powers at D* just don't want to give them to us for some other reason such as they don't want us to buffer two football games and watch none of the FOX commercials, well then that would suck.


I bet it just SPAM stuff. Something else to make them $$$. What ever it is I know I don't want or need it.


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## tfederov

This just hit me as a reason they are shying away from it.... With dual live buffers, do we technically have two receivers for the price of one?


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## Earl Bonovich

tfederov said:


> This just hit me as a reason they are shying away from it.... With dual live buffers, do we technically have two receivers for the price of one?


Nah... You still have dual tuners...
And dual buffers have been around on the DTivos for a while (they where not there at the start, but they where eventually added)

The "Mirror"/"Lease" fee is based on the # of Access Cards, not the number of tuners. If that was the case... my gosh my bill would be another $30 higher....


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## agreer

Without dual buffers, can it not record 2 feeds at once? If I can't "Live Buffer" lets say ESPN and Fox at the same time, then you cant record 2 at a time? Ny cable DVR can record 2 shows at once; if a $400 D* box cant, then forget a potential switch to D*.


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## Earl Bonovich

The HR20 can most definently record 2 things at once.

What this is about is the fact it that it cannot LIVE BUFFER two things at once.

Two similar, yet different things.

Basically a Buffer is a rolling constant recording, that never gets saved (even thought that isn't 100% true)

The HR20 only offers 1 buffer... but it can and does record two things at once.


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## bonscott87

I could care less about dual buffers. I just want it to record my programs.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer

I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.

What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.

-Robert


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## MichiganFan

Is there a workaround to the dual buffers? For example, if I set up two programs to record at the same time can I do the equivalent of a "Live TV button" switch, or would the program being recorded in the background need to be accessed from the menu?

How do you know which program is being buffered? Is it always the foreground, or can you record in the back and buffer in the front? How do you switch between 2 recording shows?


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## nogdas

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.
> 
> What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.
> 
> -Robert


Nope,

How record 4 games goin at once and switching between them, and buffering the last 2 was at ? So Dual Live Buffers is a MUST

Also the people who have the sports packages and etc are Directv main Income source, Lack of Dual Live Buffers will piss them off BIG TIME.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer

nogdas said:


> Nope,
> 
> How record 4 games goin at once and switching between them, and buffering the last 2 was at ? So Dual Live Buffers is a MUST
> 
> Also the people who have the sports packages and etc are Directv main Income source, Lack of Dual Live Buffers will piss them off BIG TIME.


Not sure I underatand your post? How could you record 4 games going on at once with the HR10-250 or any other DVR?

-Robert


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## nogdas

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Not sure I underatand your post? How could you record 4 games going on at once with the HR10-250 or any other DVR?
> 
> -Robert


I meant, Since the HR20 is cippled and has no Dual Live buffers, you can not be able switch between 2 games and rewind, and then switch to a 3rd and a 4th channel, and buffer that current and last channel.

With your method you are loked into watching 2 nfl sunday ticket games at once and have no options to go to the other games on at same time, therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## Bobman

nogdas said:


> therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.


Get two or three of them then  . I use 3 DVR's when its NFLST time and usually cancel one after the season is over. I need to see ENTIRE games for some teams and not just a few minutes by switching back and forth between games. Even with dual buffers that wouldnt help my NFLST usage.


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## ajwillys

Bobman said:


> Get two or three of them then  . I use 3 DVR's when its NFLST time and usually cancel one after the season is over. I need to see ENTIRE games for some teams and not just a few minutes by switching back and forth between games. Even with dual buffers that wouldnt help my NFLST usage.


I agree! Dual Live Buffers is simply not enough. When its football season it has to be two receivers and two tv's at all times. There is no other way to keep everyone happy.


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## Clint Lamor

nogdas said:


> I meant, Since the HR20 is cippled and has no Dual Live buffers, you can not be able switch between 2 games and rewind, and then switch to a 3rd and a 4th channel, and buffer that current and last channel.
> 
> With your method you are loked into watching 2 nfl sunday ticket games at once and have no options to go to the other games on at same time, therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.


The moment you switch the channel from the two being buffered you are still only buffering two channels and have now lost the one you where watching. So I pretty much in the same I don't understand category.


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## bonscott87

Clint Lamor said:


> The moment you switch the channel from the two being buffered you are still only buffering two channels and have now lost the one you where watching. So I pretty much in the same I don't understand category.


Exactly. At least when I watch ST I'll have 1 tuner pretty much on 1 game (my Bears) and then the other tuner I use to surf around the various other games. I also have another receiver should I really need it. If you just have to have 2 games buffering then yea, just set both to record.

On the Tivo's now, if you have 2 games buffering on each tuner, as soon as you tune to a 3rd game you just lost the buffer on that tuner anyway. So I'm with you, I don't get the big deal here. So my plan to get the same functionality on the HR20 would be to set the Bears game to record and then surf around on the other tuner. I lose no functionality.

Maybe the way some other use their Tivo it will be a loss in functionality but I'm just not seeing it as the buffer is dumped any time you switch channels. Unless I'm not understanding something, certainly possible.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer

Thanks for the comments. Very good points guys. I will pass your comments onto the DIRECTV folks in charge so they understand your position.

Maybe they will give in to Season Ticket holders and give them the option to selectively turn off the Showcases download during the football season or as I stated earlier have the program put off the downloads till the middle of the night.

-Robert


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## edpowers

bonscott87 said:


> Exactly. At least when I watch ST I'll have 1 tuner pretty much on 1 game (my Bears) and then the other tuner I use to surf around the various other games. I also have another receiver should I really need it. If you just have to have 2 games buffering then yea, just set both to record.
> 
> On the Tivo's now, if you have 2 games buffering on each tuner, as soon as you tune to a 3rd game you just lost the buffer on that tuner anyway. So I'm with you, I don't get the big deal here. So my plan to get the same functionality on the HR20 would be to set the Bears game to record and then surf around on the other tuner. I lose no functionality.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?


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## Earl Bonovich

edpowers said:


> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?


Right now... this is correct... I am hoping it changes in a near future software upgrade.


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## cabanaboy1977

anubys said:


> I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...


It's possible to have 2 90 min buffers. The UTV had it. So you should be able to have your cake and eat it too if D* enables dual buffers. They shouldn't have to skimp to 30mins on each if they don't want to.


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## bonscott87

edpowers said:


> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?


I think you are correct, Earl said it's supposed to work but doesn't always (unless it's another pause feature). If so I wouldn't record the game.

But even with that limitation, with all the other good things about it I'm not going to let a limitation I'll only see 3 hours week for 17 weeks stop me from getting it. 

I had my fill of Tivo coolaid over the past 6 years, I'm ready for something new. And if it does the simple thing of record my shows that I ask it to then I'm all over it. Anything else is icing on the cake.


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## harley3k

May sound silly to some people who don't use it, but it really is a convenient feature. With the HR20 having 2 tuners, being able to record 2 shows at once, this seems like a no brainer to add... UNLESS they want to use your non-recording tuner to download SPAM all day long, or they're worried about the increased lack of commercial viewing when doing this.

I'm not a NFL Ticket fan but even so, here's an example of using dual-buffers and why I find it useful.

Late at night when there's nothing I've recoreded left to watch I will channel surf (like the old days). Usually I end up on DAVE LETTERMAN. Now I don't watch this enough to record it every night, nor would I really want to watch it later in the week (sort of like recording the news). But I also don't want to watch commercials, so I'll pause DAVE and flip to the other tuner (simple press of the DOWN ARROW on the remote) and then tune into JAY LENO. When JAY's show goes to commercial, I'll pause him, flip back to DAVE (simple press of the DOWN ARROW), and he's where I left him, paused at the commercial, but there's now enough buffer to forward past said commercials and onto the show.... When buffer runs out and commercials start again, or if there's a guest I don't care about, I'll pause him, flip back to the other guy.... The down-arrow flip functionality makes this work. If I have to RECORD 2 shows, go into my recordings and then press play (assuming it resumes from where I left off), then this is more annoying than watching the stupid commercials.

Either way you look at it, it's a feature of the HR10 that's not there in the new and improved HR20 box, that turns out isn't improved much at all.

-h


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## harley3k

cabanaboy1977 said:


> It's possible to have 2 90 min buffers. The UTV had it. So you should be able to have your cake and eat it too if D* enables dual buffers. They shouldn't have to skimp to 30mins on each if they don't want to.


Ya, it's not like it takes more CPU to NOT keep anything older than 30 minutes old on the drive... It's just a point at which you mark that buffer area of the drive as 'available'. If anything it should take less CPU cycles because it would only have to do it after 90 minutes, then every minute after; instead of 30 minutes and every minute after...

Hell why can't it have enough buffer as you have hard drive space?!

-h


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## Herdfan

How I watch football:

I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.

I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


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## pdawg17

Herdfan said:


> How I watch football:
> 
> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


That's exactly what I do...that's where a dual buffer works great...and I know you can just record both of them but if one of the games stinks, I just want to be able to turn the channel...I don't want to have to do a stop record first and then delete that recording to save space...


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## Herdfan

pdawg17 said:


> ...and I know you can just record both of them


But flipping between 2 recordings is not nearly as easy as a single press of ARROW DOWN or LIVE TV.


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## finaldiet

Why don't everybody get two HR20's. That would solve the problem.


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## tonyd79

Big time sports watchers understand dual buffers and LOVE them.

Those who don't watch live programming (like sports) will never understand.

Dual buffers are HUGE for watching sports. You watch one game until commercials then watch the other. Doing them as recordings requires more work, less flexibility (to change games on one of the tuners) AND requires the disk space.

DirecTV is being stupid if the reason is not purely technical to deny dual buffers. They sell a lot of sports programming and are missing what people do with their units on sports.


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## Herdfan

finaldiet said:


> Why don't everybody get two HR20's. That would solve the problem.


Not really as in my media room I have access to 2 HR10's and 1 R10 letting me in essence buffer 6 games at any one time.:grin:


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## JohnSorTivo

Dual buffers are so important to me, that when I switch to HD, I will likely be leaving DirecTV, mostly to follow the Tivo Series 3, so that I can retain this feature. Personally, I have a much greater affinity to the features and functionality of my DVR than I do to my content provider.


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## Que

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.
> 
> What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.
> 
> -Robert


Earl said that it doesn't work right. It doesn't save your pause. So you have to watch one. Then watch the other one.


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## Que

Herdfan said:


> How I watch football:
> 
> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


Same thing I do. I'am going to copy and paste that in the OT. Some people don't understand how it works, or should work.


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## DTV TiVo Dealer

Que said:


> Earl said that it doesn't work right. It doesn't save your pause. So you have to watch one. Then watch the other one.


I'm sure that wil be fixed very quickly.

-Robert


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## Que

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I'm sure that wil be fixed very quickly.
> 
> -Robert


I hope as quickly as OTA tuners. That is something I thought that would be fixed before it was even out the door.


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## wilbur_the_goose

I'm a Tivo-phile, but I'll give D* a little leeway. When my first SD D* TiVo came out, it had only one Sat tuner activated and no OTA.

But - they gotta get dual buffers. They're taking away our suggestions, our auto-correct, our search capabilities, etc... 

For the first time since 1996, I'm serously looking at alternatives. I already have FIOS broadband, just waiting for VZ to get a governmental OK to turn on the TV service.

My loyalty to Rupert/Fox/DirecTV is wearing very thin.

Please tell your friends at D* that


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## nathanielt

This is costing DirecTV at least one customer...me. I had the HDVR2 and loved this feature, but couldn't afford the then $1,000 for the HR10-250 when I switched to HD....so I've been paying Comcast $10 a month for a dual tuner HD DVR for the last year and a half. Not nearly as good as the old Tivo interface, but it generally works. The biggest thing I miss, however, is the two live buffers. I've kept my DirectTV account on suspension, waiting for this device and waiting to return. But failing to provide the dual buffers is probably a deal breaker for me.


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## Mordha

For me, I like the option but I sure don't use it enough to say it's a deal breaker. I do see the value of having dual live buffers at sports time, but I am hardly home long enough to justify the feature. 
I would like to see it added, just not at the expense of losing the 90 min buffer, sorry


----------



## BrettStah

I can live without dual live buffers (by simply recording both games) IF the following is possible:

1) The pause location bug is fixed

2) It's possible to switch back and forth between the two things being recorded with one button press (I think Earl already has said the PREV button does this).

For those that want to switch among 3 or more games, I'm guessing that it would mostly be possible - you'd have to pick out a "main" game that you definitely want to watch, and then use the second tuner as the live tv buffer, and change channels only on that tuner as needed.


----------



## jonaswan2

Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jonaswan2 said:


> Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!


I highly doubt that it is technicalll.... Why?

What is the difference between "recording" two programs at once....
and two "buffers" recording at once?

The only "practical" difference is that in once case it has a finite start and stop point... the other... the end point is "never" and the start point is just a pointer in a file, that moves along with it...


----------



## harley3k

Earl Bonovich said:


> I highly doubt that it is technicalll.... Why?
> 
> What is the difference between "recording" two programs at once....
> and two "buffers" recording at once?
> 
> The only "practical" difference is that in once case it has a finite start and stop point... the other... the end point is "never" and the start point is just a pointer in a file, that moves along with it...


Have you noticed any performance drop when the HR20 is recording 2 channels at once? Particularly 2 HD channels?

I ask because having 2 buffers you could switch between would mean they are both recording at all times for the buffers. The way it is now, the 2nd tuner would only be recording when scheduling required it, or when they need to send down spam/vod. Which would be 'rare' by comparison to recording 2 buffers 24/7.

So I'm just wondering if they did it for performance reasons.

It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue. Obviously it must be able to handle it, if it does record 2 shows at once, but I wonder if doing it all the time would put a strain on the overall performance of the system and slow down menuing or any background tasks it has to do... All speculation obviously.

-h


----------



## walters

harley3k said:


> It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue.


You've actually just arrived at the jist of TiVo's "Time Warping" patent. The way they've designed their system, the CPU (and therefore the OS and application software) isn't even involved--it goes straight* from the satellite tuner (or MPEG encoder for a standalone) to the hard drive via DMA. And straight from the hard drive to the decoder for playback. No other way to have done it way back then with a 54 MHz CPU and 16 MB of RAM (pretty much the same CPU and double the RAM for the first DTiVos).

* actually not straight. The audio and video get separated and timecodes get put in to help syncing on playback. It's of course a lot more complicated than that. But that's what frustrates me when people are incredulous that "TiVo patented digital video recording when so many people were already doing what they are doing", because they didn't and people weren't.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

harley3k said:


> Have you noticed any performance drop when the HR20 is recording 2 channels at once? Particularly 2 HD channels?
> 
> I ask because having 2 buffers you could switch between would mean they are both recording at all times for the buffers. The way it is now, the 2nd tuner would only be recording when scheduling required it, or when they need to send down spam/vod. Which would be 'rare' by comparison to recording 2 buffers 24/7.
> 
> So I'm just wondering if they did it for performance reasons.
> 
> It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue. Obviously it must be able to handle it, if it does record 2 shows at once, but I wonder if doing it all the time would put a strain on the overall performance of the system and slow down menuing or any background tasks it has to do... All speculation obviously.
> 
> -h


I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...
> 
> No change in performance on the box...
> Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


Right now I can only hope that they update the HR20 before I change over.

I welcome change. Hell I'm a tech'e kind of guy. Always love the new thing but, dang why no dual live buffer or OTA. I know some can't see or care about "HDlite" on my 64' you can tell and I LOVE OTA. I like to see what bit rate/resolution people are getting on there HR20.

So right now I'll stick with my slow HR10 in hopes that there is an update before I can/have to change over.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Unless you are converting to the HR20 in the next couple months, almost certain OTA will be there.

As for Dual Live buffers..... completely different story.


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> Unless you are converting to the HR20 in the next couple months, almost certain OTA will be there.
> 
> As for Dual Live buffers..... completely different story.


No I'm going to hold out for a long as I can. Maybe if they fix OTA and the pause fix. Then I might change over. Like to give it some time and see what others think about it.


----------



## ouijal

Que said:


> No I'm going to hold out for a long as I can. Maybe if they fix OTA and the pause fix. Then I might change over. Like to give it some time and see what others think about it.


Exactly what I am going to do. I am glad I found out the dual buffer/pause bug/no OTA stuff before I ran out and bought one.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ouijal said:


> Exactly what I am going to do. I am glad I found out the dual buffer/pause bug/no OTA stuff before I ran out and bought one.


That is exactly why the Review exists... and the forums exist.
So you can seek out and be as informed about the product as you can be.


----------



## drawnad

I logged into my account on www.directv.com (so they knew I was a customer) and sent the following e-mail through their "contact us" webform:



> Hi,
> 
> I have been looking forward to the new Directv HD-DVR (HR20-700) and have read the reviews on DBStalk.com.
> 
> I currently have two HR10-250s (one I own, and one I lease), and, while I am not looking forward to giving up the Tivo interface that I have grown to love, I had planned to upgrade to the HR20 when it became available -- I know that MPEG-4 will be the future for Directv, and I also hoped that the HR20 would offer much more than my HDTivo.
> 
> After reading the review on DBStalk.com, I found that the HR20 is certainly a step in the right direction, and appears to be "better" than my HR10-250 in many ways, except one -- the HR20 does not have dual live buffers!
> 
> I do not know what this (seemingly simple) feature was abandoned, but I will tell you that it is quite useful, especially during football season!
> 
> I would ask that you consider enabling dual live buffers in the HR20 -- until then, I'll hold on to my HR10s!
> 
> Thanks,


If you care about dual live buffers, I suggest you do the same!!

_Mod edit: to parse out full HTTP link_


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Just sent a similar e-mail. Thanks.


----------



## Que

I sent one. I've added about turn ON OTA tuners. If it can record 2 OTA or just one. Plus added about the pause remember where I paused. 

I sent one about "HDlite" before and just received a can message back but I'll send this email out. 

Thanks!


----------



## drawnad

Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:



> Dear Mr. Ward,
> 
> Thanks for your interest in the DIRECTV HR20-700. While I don't have any information today about the status of the "dual live buffers" on the new HD DVR, I have forwarded your comments on to DIRECTV management. We're in the testing stages for our new HD DVR that can record programming broadcast in both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 format, but I don't expect it to be available until fall. I'm sorry I don't have any more specific information right now, but stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news about new equipment.
> 
> In addition you can learn more about DIRECTV equipment by signing up for our technical newsletter. Just respond to this message and we'll make sure you get the all of the latest equipment news.
> 
> Thanks again for writing.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> John
> DIRECTV Customer Service


I'd love to see the responses others get!


----------



## cdavis

Let's cut all the BS. Are they ever planning on adding dual buffers, Earl? If not, why?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

drawnad said:


> Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:
> 
> I'd love to see the responses others get!


This is what I received:

Thanks for writing. While I don't have any information today about dual live buffers for HD DVR, I have forwarded your comments on to DIRECTV management.

Our new MPEG-4-capable DIRECTV HD DVR (model HR20) is already available in the Los Angeles area and is available nationally in late August and September 2006, after we roll out our local HD programming to our first group of cities. More details will be available when we launch the HR20 receiver in your area, so watch your local TV, radio or mailbox for upcoming announcements or visit DIRECTV.com/HD

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to DIRECTV.com for the latest news and information about HD programming.

Sincerely,

Gary
DIRECTV Customer Service


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cdavis said:


> Let's cut all the BS. Are they ever planning on adding dual buffers, Earl? If not, why?


There is no BS to add.

Are they EVER? As in eternity?
Can't say yes or no.

Is comming next week? or next month? probably not...

But they have taken notice to the threads and the emails..


----------



## Que

drawnad said:


> Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:
> 
> I'd love to see the responses others get!


He is mine.



> Response (Kristine A)	08/22/2006 07:02 PM
> Dear,
> 
> Thank you for writing. Our new MPEG 4 HD DVR will be available in the fall of this year. Although at this time we do not have a specific date, you can learn more about DIRECTV equipment by signing up for our technical newsletter. Just respond to this message and we'll make sure you get the all of the latest equipment news.
> 
> Moreover, we're always looking for ways to enhance our services, and customer feedback is very important to us. I have forwarded your suggestion regarding the additional features on our future receivers to DIRECTV Management.
> 
> We often make changes to our service based on customer requests, and we conduct customer surveys on a regular basis to get feedback and new ideas.
> 
> Thanks again for your suggestion, and stay tuned to DIRECTV.com for the latest news and information about our service.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Tin
> DIRECTV Customer Service


----------



## longshot

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...
> 
> No change in performance on the box...
> Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


Don't know if this was mentioned but according to the manual you can record\watch up to 3 programs at once.

SATELLITE IN 1 (FTM) - Use to connect the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR to a second LNB
on the satellite dish antenna, giving you the ability to watch and record up to three programs at once (two from the satellite, and one from the Off -Air In). If your installation includes an FTM (Frequency Translator Module), connect the FTM output to this input. FTM is a technology that allows multiple tuners to work with a single satellite input. (FTM support may require a software upgrade. Ask your DIRECTV Installer for details.)


----------



## walters

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...
> 
> No change in performance on the box...
> Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


How do we know it's unlike the HR10 until they actually activate OTA recording?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

walters said:


> How do we know it's unlike the HR10 until they actually activate OTA recording?


True


----------



## Earl Bonovich

longshot said:


> Don't know if this was mentioned but according to the manual you can record\watch up to 3 programs at once.
> 
> SATELLITE IN 1 (FTM) - Use to connect the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR to a second LNB
> on the satellite dish antenna, giving you the ability to watch and record up to three programs at once (two from the satellite, and one from the Off -Air In). If your installation includes an FTM (Frequency Translator Module), connect the FTM output to this input. FTM is a technology that allows multiple tuners to work with a single satellite input. (FTM support may require a software upgrade. Ask your DIRECTV Installer for details.)


All indications that I have been given, is that the segments in the manual that lead us to believe that we will be able to record 3 things at once.....

are wrong.

It is only going to be 2


----------



## drawnad

Has anyone else sent e-mails re: dual live buffers? If so, any responses? Interesting that they do not have a "canned" answer -- I like the response DC_SnDvl got a bit more than the one I got. . .


----------



## newsposter

just adding my 2 cents: why go backwards in time and not forward with technology? If tivo did it and there aren't patent issues, why not give us what tivo had and a decent amount of people enjoy? DUAL buffers!

dual buffers is a must and if dtv wants me to start to accept NDS, they need to start mimicing more of the Tivo stuff I use and enjoy every day.


----------



## Bobman

I rarely watch live TV and do not need dual buffers. I like the one larger buffer better and that came in handy a few times where a shorter buffer would not have.


----------



## Bobman

newsposter said:


> why not give us what tivo had


Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.

If DirecTV wants acceptance of the own DVR's, IMO they need to stop supporting the DirecTiVos as soon as they get the R-15 and HR20 working and in wide release.


----------



## sharpmibo

Dual buffers are a strong feature for the Sunday Ticket user!


----------



## bigpuma

Bobman said:


> Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.


They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.


----------



## Clint Lamor

bigpuma said:


> They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.


You know this 100% positive? I don't think anyone outside of the people at Tivo and DirecTV know why the relationship came to a halt.

I'm sure there are many reasons this happened and money was only 1 of them.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bigpuma said:


> They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.


What the whole whopping $2 ish per subscriber/account and only for DVR users?
It is going to take them how many years to recoop the R&D for the two DVR products.... Let alone the subsidy (sp?) on the hardware... dish upgrades... installation charges...

Yep... they did it for the money.


----------



## henryld

Can I vote twice?


----------



## mpoyner

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yep... they did it for the money.


I know, it doesnt make sense to me either that they only did it for the money. But...what else could it be?

What could possibly make them go through all of this headache and upfront R&D and free equipment costs, if they didnt think that they would be making significant monetary returns? They are a business and it would make no sense to decide to take on the headache of making the software and harware if someone else was already doing it for them, unless they stood to profit in the end.


----------



## bonscott87

Well, not only did they pay Tivo per subscriber, they also had the cost of support for a product they didn't own and didn't totally control.

But who really knows. Could be they didn't like Tivo's move to get in with the cable companies. 
Or there was concern what would happen if Tivo went under and they didn't want to buy Tivo to save it. At least with their own DVR their fate (good or bad) is in their own hands.

We'll never know the real reason.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

To me, it's the "NIH" syndrome. Not Invented Here - we see it in the Info Technology world all the time.


----------



## gooch986

Mordha said:


> For me, I like the option but I sure don't use it enough to say it's a deal breaker. I do see the value of having dual live buffers at sports time, but I am hardly home long enough to justify the feature.
> I would like to see it added, just not at the expense of losing the 90 min buffer, sorry


I feel the same as you, except that I wouldn't mind losing the 90 minute in trade.


----------



## Kentstater

I never used this feature until everyone started in on the loss of it.
I tried it, its nice, but eh, I can live without it. 
I did for the past year anyway.


----------



## KTHD Images

Earl Bonovich said:


> I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...
> 
> No change in performance on the box...
> Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


Earl,
Could you add some more detail to your comment about recording two programs while watching a third - using the new HR-20.

Am I correct that you are saying you record two different DirecTV channels on tuner 1 and tuner 2 and yet are still able to watch a live program on a third DirecTV channel (Your OTH tuners I believe you say are disabled , so all channels must be DirecTV tuners)?

Having the ability to receive 3 channels at the same time seems to go against the concept that the HR-20 has only 2 direcTV tuners.

Thanks,
KT


----------



## philly256

I joined the forum just so I could put in my 2 cents about the dual live buffers, particularly since Earl said on another thread that DTV is monitoring these forums. Dual live buffers is a necessity. I would like to hear the reasoning for not including that feature. Unfortunately, Earl, who has been tremondously helpful, has not been able to share DTV's reasoning.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

philly - I doubt that D* has a lot of reasoning - it's just their current paradigm. If only they can get to the 'tipping point', they'll see that this one little feature is the deal breaker for a significant majority of their upper-tier customers.

They're not dumb - they're a smart group of folks dedicated to making a profit and servicing their customers.

I really think they'll get there.

If not, I have the number for FIOS :shrug:


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> What the whole whopping $2 ish per subscriber/account and only for DVR users?
> It is going to take them how many years to recoop the R&D for the two DVR products.... Let alone the subsidy (sp?) on the hardware... dish upgrades... installation charges...
> 
> Yep... they did it for the money.


No they did it out of the kindness of theire heart?

Of course it's for the money, yes $2/month/DVR subscriber...plus the control the design of the future products /offerings/ technology....

that's all for the money.

Of course...

whether it was the best decision..is debatable...but clearly $$$ is always the prime motivation.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

bonscott87 said:


> Well, not only did they pay Tivo per subscriber, they also had the cost of support for a product they didn't own and didn't totally control.
> 
> But who really knows. Could be they didn't like Tivo's move to get in with the cable companies.
> Or there was concern what would happen if Tivo went under and they didn't want to buy Tivo to save it. At least with their own DVR their fate (good or bad) is in their own hands.
> 
> We'll never know the real reason.


Then they should have bought Tivo a few years ago when they had the chance, then they could have had total control over the product.

Then they could have changed their name to DirecTiVo.


----------



## DixonJDixon

I joined DBS just so I could vote and respond. I've been with Directv since 1996. Dual buffers is an absolute must for sports watching. I'm waiting for the S3 to come out so I can compare it to the HR20.

If the HR20 doesn't have dual buffers by then, bye bye Directv (and NFLST) and hello Comcast.


----------



## newsposter

Bobman said:


> Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.


um, i was thinking more along the lines of keeping the tivo features THEN adding all the other stuff on top of it.

keeps us tivo lovers happy and maybe even happier if the new features are there...if we dont like the new features, at least we will have the old to placate us.

keeps us happy and them happy


----------



## bonscott87

KTHD Images said:


> Earl,
> Could you add some more detail to your comment about recording two programs while watching a third - using the new HR-20.
> 
> Am I correct that you are saying you record two different DirecTV channels on tuner 1 and tuner 2 and yet are still able to watch a live program on a third DirecTV channel (Your OTH tuners I believe you say are disabled , so all channels must be DirecTV tuners)?
> 
> Having the ability to receive 3 channels at the same time seems to go against the concept that the HR-20 has only 2 direcTV tuners.
> 
> Thanks,
> KT


No, it's just like the Tivo's. Record 2 things at once while watching a 3rd *previously recorded* program.


----------



## gr8reb8

I would like it if DTV would give us a choice. Do we want the convenience of having on demand ppv available or would we rather have dual live buffers. Seems like it would be an easy option/choice that could be added to the menus. The ones who really want the dual buffers will not be upset and be unhappy users, and for the rest, they will have their on demand content available... Just thinking logic here...


----------



## tonyd79

The problem with the VoD versus dual buffers is the same as VoD versus dual tuners. 

If the reasoning is that VoD takes up the buffer, it would do the same for the tuner, so advertising "TWO TUNERS" is a bit bogus.

I don't see it as a big deal. Right now, in the middle of the night, my second tuner/buffer is used by showcases and other data. I live with it without complaining.

ANY reasoning that ties VoD in with the lack of dual buffers is bad reasoning.


----------



## KTHD Images

bonscott87 said:


> No, it's just like the Tivo's. Record 2 things at once while watching a 3rd *previously recorded* program.


Scott,

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

KT


----------



## cjr

Forget dual buffers. There should be quad buffers. 

If you you have Dual SAT Tuners and Dual ATSC Tuners(currently disabled) according to the specs/Earl, there should be quad buffers.

But dual buffers, let alone quad buffers are useless without a tuner swap button, which the HR20 doesn't have. And don't tell me the to use the Prev button. I just want to swap tuners not go back to a previous channel.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

cjr said:


> Forget dual buffers. There should be quad buffers.
> 
> If you you have Dual SAT Tuners and Dual ATSC Tuners(currently disabled) according to the specs/Earl, there should be quad buffers.
> 
> But dual buffers, let alone quad buffers are useless without a tuner swap button, which the HR20 doesn't have. And don't tell me the to use the Prev button. I just want to swap tuners not go back to a previous channel.


I totally agree, if it has 4 tuners it should be able to record 4 things at once.

A tuner swap button would be good, but I think it needs PIP too.


----------



## chris_h

Okay, I admit I never have used the dual-buffer feature on my HR10. Until a few days ago, I did not understand why fellow football fanatics don't just set up recordings for the games they plan to watch (which is what I do). I get it now. I don't have ST, but you do. You have eight (or so) games on at once, and you want to decide which ones you will watch on the fly. You might even watch a piece of all 8 games. So dual live buffers (DLB) is a must.

I understand that if DLB is active 24/7 that there would never be a tuner available to download VOD content, which is probably part of D* long term plans, and they likely see it as needed to compete with cable.

I have a question for those of you who use DLB regularly. If D* added an option to activate DLB for say 2/4/8 hours at a time, would that work for you? Seems to me like the best of both worlds. You still have VOD downloads when you are not using DLB. You get your DLB feature when you need it.


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

With the HR10-250, if the tuners are tuned, say, to CH A & B, and the unit is in "Standby" mode, when it is turned back on, the buffers each are holding the latest 30 minutes of "A" and "B", even if no "record" is set up. So, one has up to 1/2 hour to recover from a "senior moment", or a realization that, say, there was something "big" on the news that should be looked at.

That's the way it ought to be with the new box, only more so. D* is making a serious mistake if they don't at least match the feature on the HR10-250, in my opinion. And, as I tell my wife -- I'm right, as usual!

Stan


----------



## bonscott87

chris_h said:


> I understand that if DLB is active 24/7 that there would never be a tuner available to download VOD content, which is probably part of D* long term plans, and they likely see it as needed to compete with cable.
> 
> I have a question for those of you who use DLB regularly. If D* added an option to activate DLB for say 2/4/8 hours at a time, would that work for you? Seems to me like the best of both worlds. You still have VOD downloads when you are not using DLB. You get your DLB feature when you need it.


This is easily solved by downloading VOD content in the middle of the night as they did with the showcases on the Tivo's. Or use the broadband connection and download the VOD that way.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Stanley Kritzik said:


> With the HR10-250, if the tuners are tuned, say, to CH A & B, and the unit is in "Standby" mode, when it is turned back on, the buffers each are holding the latest 30 minutes of "A" and "B", even if no "record" is set up. So, one has up to 1/2 hour to recover from a "senior moment", or a realization that, say, there was something "big" on the news that should be looked at.
> 
> That's the way it ought to be with the new box, only more so. D* is making a serious mistake if they don't at least match the feature on the HR10-250, in my opinion. And, as I tell my wife -- I'm right, as usual!
> 
> Stan


The HR10-250 doesn't continues buffer once it goes into standby mode. (The HR20 does though).

When you go to standby mode in the HR10-250... that 30 minutes in the buffer was the 30 minutes BEFORE you shut the unit down.

The HR20 will continue to buffer even while in standby mode.


----------



## chris_h

bonscott87 said:


> This is easily solved by downloading VOD content in the middle of the night as they did with the showcases on the Tivo's. Or use the broadband connection and download the VOD that way.


Are the showcases the things with the little yellow star in the main tivo menu, or something else?

I think that those are limited in size, and VOD would probably be much longer (depending on how they choose to implement it). Either way, you still do not get DLB 24/7. But I guess your point is that you do not have it now on the HR10 either.

Obviously if you use the broadband connection for VOD, not the tuners, it becomes a non-issue (as long as the system resources can support all that fun at once).


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR10-250 doesn't continues buffer once it goes into standby mode. (The HR20 does though).
> 
> When you go to standby mode in the HR10-250... that 30 minutes in the buffer was the 30 minutes BEFORE you shut the unit down.
> 
> The HR20 will continue to buffer even while in standby mode.


Thanks for correcting my erroneous belief. So, to keep my wish list alive, I'm stromgly for double buffering even while in standby -- buffering the two channels the tuners were last tuned to. That's the neat way to do it, and since, every six months or so, disk capacity increases, why not just do it? Be strategic and assume that by next year, 1 GB drives will be plentiful. (Lexar is up to 4 GB on compact flash cards already.)

PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.

Stan

Stan


----------



## bonscott87

chris_h said:


> Are the showcases the things with the little yellow star in the main tivo menu, or something else?
> 
> I think that those are limited in size, and VOD would probably be much longer (depending on how they choose to implement it). Either way, you still do not get DLB 24/7. But I guess your point is that you do not have it now on the HR10 either.
> 
> Obviously if you use the broadband connection for VOD, not the tuners, it becomes a non-issue (as long as the system resources can support all that fun at once).


Yea, I think my point really is that I think they could enable dual buffers and still have the VOD stuff download. I'd say when it wants to download VOD (during off hours or whatever) then it may need to disable the 2nd buffer but then turn it back on after it's done.

But I'm starting to see why the decided to go with just 1 buffer as there is a lot of things to figure out and consider if they need the other for the VOD stuff. Enable broadband and the problem is solved.


----------



## drawnad

I think an easy way to solve this problem would be to have the box "plan" to use the second tuner for a user-defined time period (i.e. 1:00 A.M. to 8:00 A.M.) to download VOD, etc.-- inform the user that the longer this period, the more VOD they can have -- I'd have mine run from midnight to 8:00 P.M. on my big TV during the week. 

At the beginning of that period, a nag screen could come up that says "Preparing to accept VOD Download, during this period, dual live buffer use will be suspended" -- have "OK" be the default, but also have a "snooze 1 hour" option -- if there is no key input for 30 seconds, then the receiver knows no one is watching, and thus can utilize the background tuner for VOD. -- I am thinking of the screen you get on a tivo when it wants to change the cannel to record something -- the default is "OK, go ahead and change it" -- if you don't do anything, it will change and start recording, but you also have the "cancel recording" option if you would rather keep watching what you are watching. 

How hard would this be to implement? Doesn't this satisify everyone's concerns?


----------



## bonscott87

Sounds like a plan to me!


----------



## tonyd79

drawnad said:


> I think an easy way to solve this problem would be to have the box "plan" to use the second tuner for a user-defined time period (i.e. 1:00 A.M. to 8:00 A.M.) to download VOD, etc.-- inform the user that the longer this period, the more VOD they can have -- I'd have mine run from midnight to 8:00 P.M. on my big TV during the week.


Why not just use the second buffer for VOD if it is not being used live?

Just like they do with the DTiVos. When the showcase stuff comes on, it assumes it is programmed. If you try to change the channel on that tuner, it tells you that you will lose content. Then you decide. Let it reset with each new VoD item that comes down. Prompt the user that the tuner will change and ask them if they want it to with a warning that you will lose a portion of VOD content if you don't let it go.

This is not rocket science and is already implemented on DTV DVRs (albeit TiVos). Or is that a TiVo patent? :hurah:


----------



## drawnad

Tony D's solution is much easier . . . is that the "DVR Showcase 3" I catch my tivo watching when I am not around?

All of these suggestions show that saying that the dual live buffer/VOD issue is and "either/or" proposition is a bunch of bunk.

Now let's get those dual live buffers activated!!


----------



## Wolffpack

tonyd79 said:


> Why not just use the second buffer for VOD if it is not being used live?
> 
> Just like they do with the DTiVos. When the showcase stuff comes on, it assumes it is programmed. If you try to change the channel on that tuner, it tells you that you will lose content. Then you decide. Let it reset with each new VoD item that comes down. Prompt the user that the tuner will change and ask them if they want it to with a warning that you will lose a portion of VOD content if you don't let it go.
> 
> This is not rocket science and is already implemented on DTV DVRs (albeit TiVos). Or is that a TiVo patent? :hurah:


I agree Tony. DTivos use spare tuners every night...or at least every other.

Again, not rocket science. Plus, if a VOD cannot be downloaded at that point, try again later.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


----------



## chris_h

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


Semi-honest answer: Those with the Titanium package at $7500/year. 

I tend to think of my now playing list as my personalized VOD.


----------



## mnbulldog

I miss my UTV w/2 60 min buffers. And with a 300GB hdd I would assume they could do any size they wanted. So - 2 60 min buffer is my request ... but been living with Tivo's 2-30 min buffers for a while.

Just hook us up with dual buffer love - please!


----------



## Wolffpack

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


I don't believe there is any target customer. It's just to say DTV has VOD like all the cable cos do. Doesn't matter if they are used.

My vod is Netflix. Until any provider has the complete catalog Netflix does and can deliver it within the next 10 mins they should drop the subject. Doesn't interest me I won't buy it just as I don't buy PPVs.


----------



## leo81948

I would love to have dual buffers and I am not a sports fan. I just find it easier to watch 2 programs simulaneously and jump back and forth between commercials. If I've missed something I can just rewind a bit. Without dual buffers I have to do more recording. This was the one thing I missed the most when I gave up my Tivo.


----------



## Wally_Gator

Dual buffers for me Please....

I am not a huge sports fan, but I am an avid channel surfer. 
there were a couple of programs that I could have used the second buffer...

Not to mention pause point retention...


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Confirmed that we need dual buffers. I was watching 2 football games last night in HD - Steelers/Eagles and Giants/Jets. Without even thinking about it, we'd pause the Steelers game at a break, watch the Giants till a break, pause and flip back to Steelers.

Routine NFL Sunday Ticket behavior. 

Without dual tuners, I'll just go down to my local sports restrauant and watch all the games.

In other words, I'll cancel Sunday Ticket if I don't have dual buffers. (I'm good for this year because I'll keep my HR10-250s - at least until D* forces me to give them up - either to the new HR20-700 or to Comcast/FIOS).

Of course, this is all moot if D* decides to enable dual buffers.

By the way, I sent an e-mail to DirecTV.. Here's their reply:
Thanks for your interest in the DIRECTV HD-DVR (HR20-700). While I do not have information on the plans of adding or status of "the dual live buffers' on the new HD DVR, I have forwarded your email to our Management team for appropriate action. We’re in the testing stages for our new HD DVR that can record programming broadcast in both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 format, but I don’t expect it to be available until fall. I’m sorry I don’t have any more specific information right now, but stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news about new equipment.


----------



## morgantown

Just a thought -- 'ya think that the PIP guide is what is taking up that outer "tuner?" 

Dual buffers is a "major" advantage...why have the availability to record two shows at once if you cant take advantage of the buffers to watch two things when you're not recording them.


----------



## jonaswan2

Not according to NDS


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The "PIG" (Picture in Guide)
Definently doesn't use the other tuner..

You can have another program recording on the background tuner, and the PIG works just fine.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jonaswan2 said:


> Not according to NDS


And except for the Access Card technology...

NDS has 100% ZERO to do with the HR20.
The HR20 is completely under the DirecTV side of things.


----------



## jonaswan2

Earl Bonovich said:


> And except for the Access Card technology...
> 
> NDS has 100% ZERO to do with the HR20.
> The HR20 is completely under the DirecTV side of things.


I know that, but they use NDS middleware right? Yep. That is what powers the guide (according to NDS of course). So even if DirecTV made the guide themselves (which they have for all of the DirecTV branded recievers), NDS tech is powering it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jonaswan2 said:


> I know that, but they use NDS middleware right? Yep. That is what powers the guide (according to NDS of course). So even if DirecTV made the guide themselves (which they have for all of the DirecTV branded recievers), NDS tech is powering it.


As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15


----------



## jonaswan2

Earl Bonovich said:


> As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15


NOW you decide to tell me. I wonder what they could be using for middleware? Maybe OpenTV because that's what Canal uses now I think.

BTW Don't they have a contractual agreement that they have to use MediaHighway with all new DirecTV equipment or did that end when Thompson (sp?) sold the technology to NDS?


----------



## khajath

Earl Bonovich said:


> As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15


 Cousin of my friend is a contractor for DIRECTV, testing HR20 and other set top box (and I just found out that HR20 uses chip from my new employer: Broadcom), and he says the same thing.

In fact, he told me that ALL receiver from DIRECTV use the program guide and search software developed by DIRECTV, and the encryption/decryption software from NDS. Some box like D10, H20, and R15 use the NDS middleware. The HR20 uses the middleware developed entirely in house by DIRECTV, and this is their first.


----------



## jonaswan2

khajath said:


> Cousin of my friend is a contractor for DIRECTV, testing HR20 and other set top box (and I just found out that HR20 uses chip from my new employer: Broadcom), and he says the same thing.
> 
> In fact, he told me that ALL receiver from DIRECTV use the program guide and search software developed by DIRECTV, and the encryption/decryption software from NDS. Some box like D10, H20, and R15 use the NDS middleware. The HR20 uses the middleware developed entirely in house by DIRECTV, and this is their first.


Awesome, so it supports everything that they have made for the NDS middleware, but now they can fix it and tweek it to what they want it to be. I can't imagine it being any worse than MediaHighway, so a "WHOOT!" for change. Now all they have to do is dump the NDS CA (please lord NO! NDS made this absolutely right).


----------



## Stanley Kritzik

Stanley Kritzik said:


> Thanks for correcting my erroneous belief. So, to keep my wish list alive, I'm stromgly for double buffering even while in standby -- buffering the two channels the tuners were last tuned to. That's the neat way to do it, and since, every six months or so, disk capacity increases, why not just do it? Be strategic and assume that by next year, 1 GB drives will be plentiful. (Lexar is up to 4 GB on compact flash cards already.)
> 
> PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.
> 
> Stan
> 
> Stan


After trying things on the HR10-250, here's what actually happens. Say one tuner is set to Ch. "A", and the other to Ch. "B". Now assume you were watching Ch.A, so the "A"-tuned tuner was "selected". Next, put the unit in Standby, and wake it up two hours later.

You would find that the "A" programming is being buffered, with the current latest 30 minutes available to watch or retroactively "record" and save, while the "B" programming is new, as of the time the 10-250 woke up. So, it is what each tuner is tuned to, and which was the last one to be slected. But, there IS life after "Stand By".

Agree?

Stan


----------



## vikingguy

I vote for dual buffer all the way. With out them sunday ticket is worthless to me and I will not re-up for it next year with out dual buffers. Unless the HD-games in mpeg 2 next year and I can use my hd-tivo still.


----------



## harley3k

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


Exactly... Unless the VOD is in HD, it's worthless to me.
And if it is in HD, well, the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.

-h


----------



## harley3k

harley3k said:


> Exactly... Unless the VOD is in HD, it's worthless to me.
> And if it is in HD, well, the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.
> 
> -h


[yes quoting myself]

But hey, since I'm switching to FIOS anyway, it's moot. And FIOS doesn't have any HD-VOD yet either, so still worthless, but because it is cable(er fiber), at least it is really VOD - 'Video on Demand' from a server somewhere, and not VOPRDTUSOMHD - Video On-Pre-Recorded-Demand-Taking-Up-Space-On-My-Hard-Drive.



-h


----------



## TheRatPatrol

harley3k said:


> the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.


I agree, it should have had at least a 500 gig or 2 500 gig drives. Then maybe we could have recorded 4 things at once, 2 signals (2 OTA, 2 Sat) to each hard drive.


----------



## thebarge

I vote for dual buffers. To be honest, I won't even think about touching the HR20 if it doesn't have dual buffers. I don't have NFL sunday ticket, but I find myself using dual buffers on my Tivo-based devices a lot. If my wife gets on the phone or something, I'll tend to pause whatever we were watching and switch to the other tuner while I wait on her to get done. Then when she comes back, switch back to what we were watching and continue.


----------



## OverThereTooMuch

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


I didn't know either, until I visited my brother. He has comcast, and they have a bunch of kids shows on the VOD. So whenever he has an urgent need for his little guy to watch Bob The Builder or Thomas the Train, it's easy to get to.


----------



## BrettStah

OverThereTooMuch said:


> I didn't know either, until I visited my brother. He has comcast, and they have a bunch of kids shows on the VOD. So whenever he has an urgent need for his little guy to watch Bob The Builder or Thomas the Train, it's easy to get to.


I do that now, with my current DirecTivos - lots of space, low-priority season passes galore for the kids on one of them, always something for them to choose from. It really bums them out if we're somewhere without a DVR and they want to watch a specific show, or want me to pause what they're watching for some reason and I can't.


----------



## Que

I have no idea why either. Plus there is no way to turn it off if you wanted too.


Earl you were 98% (something like that) that live dual buffer would not make it before all this. Then that changed and they are now talking about it. 

So what is the % now?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Que,
Well asked...

Here's the gist of it. If D* gets dual tuners, I will guarantee that I still stay with DirecTV, get the new dish/ DVR, and spend even more money with them.

Heck - I'd much rather stay with my "partner" than divorce them.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Que,
Well asked...

Here's the gist of it. If D* gets dual tuners, I will guarantee that I still stay with DirecTV, get the new dish/ DVR, and spend even more money with them. And I already spend way too much $$$.

Heck - I'd much rather stay with my "partner" than divorce them.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> I have no idea why either. Plus there is no way to turn it off if you wanted too.
> 
> Earl you were 98% (something like that) that live dual buffer would not make it before all this. Then that changed and they are now talking about it.
> 
> So what is the % now?


50% - 50%


----------



## thebarge

Earl Bonovich said:


> 50% - 50%


Wow I was hoping for better odds. I'm worried that D* won't update my HR10 to 6.x and I'll be stuck with the horrible slowness and no folders, and won't be able to upgrade to the HR20 due to no dual buffers (it's a deal killer for me).


----------



## rick71ghia

I was thinking of getting an HR20 and was checking to see what people had to say about it. Landed here and discovered that it didn't have dual buffers. I'm a sports fan and without dual buffers or a commitment to add them on the part of Directv, I won't add an HR20 to my system. If they don't have dual buffers when the series 3 tivo comes out, I'll probably switch to comcast.


----------



## anubys

what bothers me is that I see no reason NOT to include dual buffers...if the thing has the ability to record two things at once, then it's simply a software CHOICE that they are making...

it makes no sense whatsoever to make a decision not to give a good percentage (I won't say majority) of your customers something that they really want...

is there an good explanation for why they don't want to include this option?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I changed it to 50%-50%... because just over the last week, they started to discuss in more.... They are investigating the best method to implement a dual buffer scheme, that still fits into the model they have built for "their" DVR platform.

The odds could increase a lot over the next few weeks.

And you are correct... it is a software "CHOICE" they they made.

To Rick.... then you might as well order your Series 3 then, as they are not going to have dual buffers in two weeks (since reports of the Series 3 comming out around the 17th.... then again, it is also reported to be almost $800 as well)


----------



## anubys

Earl:

any rationale you know for why they are making this choice? I'm curious to what "the other side" is arguing...those who want to choose not to have dual buffers; what are they saying? what is their reason?


----------



## Wally_Gator

I would have to guess the CHOICE has to do with memory constraints, performance AND future PLANNED features.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> Earl:
> 
> any rationale you know for why they are making this choice? I'm curious to what "the other side" is arguing...those who want to choose not to have dual buffers; what are they saying? what is their reason?


Hmmm... what is the best way to answer that... how about... "because" 

I really don't have any "solid" reasons... From what I can gather it was a combination of a lot of factors, not one specific one. Let's just say, they have definently taken intrest to the feedback of the dual buffer disucssion.


----------



## carl6

I think the background pushing of VOD plays a major role in the dual buffer issue.

Carl


----------



## thebarge

Memory constraints? I'd hope that HR20 has more memory than the HR10. If a 2 year old HR10 can do it the HR20 should be able to.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

thebarge said:


> Memory constraints? I'd hope that HR20 has more memory than the HR10. If a 2 year old HR10 can do it the HR20 should be able to.


It is not a memory constraint, nor performance.
As there is really ZERO system difference between recording two things at once, and having two recording buffers at once.


----------



## Montyward

I left D* for E* because of the dual buffer issue. The VIP does have dual buffers, though it could be a little bit better implemented. It sure beats only one buffer. 
If anybody wants an HR10-250, please send me a PM.


----------



## HarleyD

I was set to get an HR20 as soon as I could, but the lack of a dual live buffer has slowed me down considerably.

Now I'm more inclined to continue to wait into and possibly through 2007.

The content volume will improves, hopefully the slimline dish becomes available and maybe either an HR20 software upgrade or newer box altogether that supports dual live buffers is available.

Some folks have kind of poo-poohed this as a minor thing, but when you've had it, and for whatever reason you use and enjoy it, it's hard to just let it go when you know the technology exists and has existed for some time.


----------



## lpctv

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hmmm... what is the best way to answer that... how about... "because"
> 
> I really don't have any "solid" reasons... From what I can gather it was a combination of a lot of factors, not one specific one. Let's just say, they have definently taken intrest to the feedback of the dual buffer disucssion.


Earl, maybe this has been addressed before...as you can tell, I'm new here and with the amount of stuff being posted about the HR20, I haven't had the time to do a proper search.
It seems to me that this isn't really a new issue. The R15 didn't come with dual buffers and now, the new "flagship" product is following suit. I'm guessing that people have been *****ing about this or, at the very least, arguing and being very curious about DBs for a while now.
There must have been a "solid" reason for D* to go this route. Of course, theres been a lot of speculation on this board about what it could be (VoD, etc., etc.) but, is there any way that perhaps your sources would allow you to share the exact reasoning for this move?
Unlike AutoCorrect, I don't think we're talking about a proprietary TiVo issue here. So, what was the thinking?
Thanks in advance.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

lpctv,
I don't think it's anything as insidious as what you mention.

My guess is that they didn't think it was a big deal, and they could use the second tuner for VOD downloads.

In my world, they could accomplish both in the same/similar way TiVo handles recording of suggestions - the DVR asks if it's OK to switch the tuner you're not using.

-----------------------
To me, dual buffers are the key differentiating factor between the HR10-250 and the new HD DVR. If the buffers were there, I'd be on the list.

Fortunately for me, my Pennsylvania township just granted a franchise to Verizon FIOS to start delivery of their TV service.


----------



## lpctv

wilbur_the_goose said:


> lpctv,
> I don't think it's anything as insidious as what you mention.
> 
> My guess is that they didn't think it was a big deal, and they could use the second tuner for VOD downloads.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything insidious - not looking to "X-Files" this.
Mostly, I am curious because this really isn't a new issue. It wasn't there with the first non TiVo spawning from D* and it's not there now.
I would have thought that they would have noticed before this and made things better with the R20 unless they had a real good reason (technical or otherwise) not to implement it.
I mean, lets say that this is a way for D* to open up new services, why not just come out and say "by the time we show you what this new baby can do without DBs, you'll forget about ever wanting them" or something like that. Or, conversley, if it was something else more along the lines of "we didn't think it was a useful feature", then let them say that.
I'm thinking that from a purely CS perspective to have all the rampant speculation and people *****in about features missing, it's really not healthy. If I was a D* CS exec, I'd want to spin this in my favor and not let it possibly spin out of control...


----------



## Que

lpctv said:


> I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything insidious - not looking to "X-Files" this.
> Mostly, I am curious because this really isn't a new issue. It wasn't there with the first non TiVo spawning from D* and it's not there now.
> I would have thought that they would have noticed before this and made things better with the R20 unless they had a real good reason (technical or otherwise) not to implement it.
> I mean, lets say that this is a way for D* to open up new services, why not just come out and say "by the time we show you what this new baby can do without DBs, you'll forget about ever wanting them" or something like that. Or, conversley, if it was something else more along the lines of "we didn't think it was a useful feature", then let them say that.
> I'm thinking that from a purely CS perspective to have all the rampant speculation and people *****in about features missing, it's really not healthy. If I was a D* CS exec, I'd want to spin this in my favor and not let it possibly spin out of control...


So are you saying they are telling Earl to tell us it's 50% -50% now when it's really all false hope? Just putting us off... and off? On something there NOT really going to do anyways?


----------



## lpctv

Que said:


> So are you saying they are telling Earl to tell us it's 50% -50% now when it's really all false hope? Just putting us off... and off? On something there NOT really going to do anyways?


I'm not sure where you're getting that interpretation.

Based on your follow up question, we now know that it's no longer 98-2; it's now 50-50. That's definitely a *better* scenario. And, at least from my point of view, more reason to hope - yes, I would really like to have DBs. So, it seems that following up with poignant questions gets us further down the road, right?

By the same token, aren't you curious as to why it took this to get that percentage to change? Wouldn't you agree that it would make things better if D* was able to share what the reasons were to leave it out of both the 15 and the 20? Am, I hoping for too much here?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

No one told me what to say.

The 50-50 is my theory based all pieces I have.


----------



## lpctv

Earl Bonovich said:


> No one told me what to say.
> 
> The 50-50 is my theory based all pieces I have.


Thanks for the clarification, Earl.

I kind of figured that was it and thats why I had hoped to get a more definitive answer. I'm hoping that at some point your channel will either allow you to share some facts about this decision or, one of their people on this board will speak directly for the company about this.
If anything, the indicators you're using to re-evaluate your assesment and the poll results themselves are indicators that this is a very relevant issue that should merit addressing.

_Mod Edit: To fix my typo in your quote_


----------



## tfederov

First weekend of college football... flipped back and forth between two games on my HD TiVo....

I'm back in the camp that will now hold out as long as possible until either a) the HD TiVo is obsolete or b) dual live buffers come to the HR20. Sorry, DIRECTV... if you aren't going to give us live dual buffers on your new DVR, you should never have given the thumbs up (no pun intended) to the HR10 to do the same thing.


----------



## Wolffpack

tfederov said:


> First weekend of college football... flipped back and forth between two games on my HD TiVo....
> 
> I'm back in the camp that will now hold out as long as possible until either a) the HD TiVo is obsolete or b) dual live buffers come to the HR20. Sorry, DIRECTV... if you aren't going to give us live dual buffers on your new DVR, you should never have given the thumbs up (no pun intended) to the HR10 to do the same thing.


I'm beginning to think this whole issue revolves around the fact that while they knew that dual buffers existed on Tivo units (I would hope), they thought the primary reason was to record two shows at once. I don't think the DTV DVR design team did much customer/market testing on their new product design (look at the limits) and I'm almost certain they had no idea we used the dual tuners in this fashion. If they did, it may have been one or two sports fans on the development team that said "hey, if we're replacing those Tivo units we better provide this functionality" to which the reset of the team replies "that's stupid. Just cuz you sports geeks do that doesn't mean it's something everyone wants".


----------



## lpctv

Wolffpack said:


> I don't think the DTV DVR design team did much customer/market testing on their new product design (look at the limits) and I'm almost certain they had no idea we used the dual tuners in this fashion.


It depends on how you define customer and market testing.

1. No LDBs probably equals spam with VoD.
2. 30 second skip vs 30 second slip.
3. No pause and continue.
4. Etc., Etc.

I'd say that if you count their content providers as customers, then they seem to have achieved all they set out to... :nono2:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

#1 LDBs ? 

#2 has nothing to do with customers... that has to do with networks, advertisers, ect.... hence why TiVo's is not an "official" feature, it is backdoored... 30s Slip was added to the R15 after it's release because users of the system wanted some sort of "skip" feature.

#3 Bug; as it is there as of this release (BE), you have to hit EXIT though

#4 ... okay what would etc, etc, be....


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl, you realize that this Dual Buffer discussion here under the HR20 umbrella also applies to the R15 umbrella? Just a not to the silent folks here. If you go turning on dual buffers for the HR20 without turning them on for the R15.....I cannot guess at the amount of crap you will hear on these forums.

I've watched as the HR20 issues are progressing, but everyone better keep in mind there a huge R15 base that right now is waiting for the stability and limit increase (TDL) in the HR20 that Earl noted is brought to the R15. Don't forget about the R15.


----------



## lpctv

Earl Bonovich said:


> #1 LDBs ?
> 
> #2 has nothing to do with customers... that has to do with networks, advertisers, ect.... hence why TiVo's is not an "official" feature, it is backdoored... 30s Slip was added to the R15 after it's release because users of the system wanted some sort of "skip" feature.
> 
> #3 Bug; as it is there as of this release (BE), you have to hit EXIT though
> 
> #4 ... okay what would etc, etc, be....


1. *L*ive *D*ual *B*uffers
2. The whole point of my post. That they paid way more attention to them than trying to figure out what the _customer_ might want. You're too quick to come to D*s defense...you missed the underlying sarcasm of my response. Remember that I was quoting Wolffpacks post and I specifically singled out one line in it.
3. Wonder if we will need to wait for FF for some stable fixes?
4. Negative padding is the first that comes to mind right away.


----------



## lpctv

Wolffpack said:


> Earl, you realize that this Dual Buffer discussion here under the HR20 umbrella also applies to the R15 umbrella? Just a not to the silent folks here. If you go turning on dual buffers for the HR20 without turning them on for the R15.....I cannot guess at the amount of crap you will hear on these forums.
> 
> I've watched as the HR20 issues are progressing, but everyone better keep in mind there a huge R15 base that right now is waiting for the stability and limit increase (TDL) in the HR20 that Earl noted is brought to the R15. Don't forget about the R15.


I mentioned this in another reply...it wasn't in the 15 and it's not in the 20. Based on agreeing with your assumption that they didn't do any focus marketing groups, I'd say they have had other plans for why it's not in there in the first place. Except that no one seems to clearly state why (or why not)...so, let the speculation continue...


----------



## hoopsrgreat

I am a sports junkie, but I use the 2 live buffers everyday, regardless if I am watching sports. I will watch CNN, and surely also go find something else to watch. Then switch back and forth everytime a comercial comes on. This is a MAJOR problem for me in regards to getting rid of a tivo based HD DVR and switching to the HR20. Only when the HR20 would allow me to see my A's and Kings in HD fro the RSN would I switch. Since I was told I would be able to get the RSN in HD after I got the h20( I got one, only to find out that was a bunch of crap) I dont see much use for the Hr20 for me right now. To heck with recording 2 channels and playing that game. The beauty of the 2 dual live buffers is how easy it is to use. Take that ease of use away, and you make using a DVR a pain in the butt.

They MUST GET DUAL live buffers on the HR20.


----------



## Wolffpack

One item from another thread that should also be mentioned here. If Dual Live buffers are ever implemented on the DVR+ line of DVRs, it would be completely useless to those of us that want this feature if we cannot pause each buffer independently while switching between them.

For example. Watching buffer 1, game goes to commercial I pause it and switch to buffer 2. When the game on buffer 2 goes to commercial I pause that and switch back to buffer 1, unpause it and then skip/slip forward past the commercial. When I hit the next commercial on buffer 1 I pause again and switch to buffer 2. Unpause that and skip/slip ahead past the commercial. That keeps going. 

So, to the DTV folks that may be considering Dual Live Buffers, make sure you know how we use that feature. Talk to some folks out here so that you don't release a feature such as this only to find out you're missing an important part (pausing).


----------



## lpctv

Wolffpack said:


> So, to the DTV folks that may be considering Dual Live Buffers, make sure you know how we use that feature. Talk to some folks out here so that you don't release a feature such as this only to find out you're missing an important part (pausing).


Are you basing that on the fact that you can't currently pause and resume a recorded program? Only asking since I think it was mentioned that this is currently listed as a bug.
Or, do you think that there's a whole separate level of logic that they would have to build in just to do the dual buffer scenario and pauses?

There is one other apsect of this that I was just thinking about...not sure if it's been brought up yet as a possible "why it's not implemented" reason. Would the buffering logic interfere with the + features? If you buffer a game (or record), do the stats and scores features show live or time shifted?


----------



## Wolffpack

lpctv said:


> Are you basing that on the fact that you can't currently pause and resume a recorded program? Only asking since I think it was mentioned that this is currently listed as a bug.
> Or, do you think that there's a whole separate level of logic that they would have to build in just to do the dual buffer scenario and pauses?
> 
> There is one other apsect of this that I was just thinking about...not sure if it's been brought up yet as a possible "why it's not implemented" reason. Would the buffering logic interfere with the + features? If you buffer a game (or record), do the stats and scores features show live or time shifted?


If you are currently recording two live shows and are flipping between those shows via the PREV button you cannot pause one and go the other. On the R15 that is. I don't have a HR20.

+ features such as the applications in MIX channels or YES do not allow for recording at all. I don't know how those would impact dual live buffers. But from my stand point, if the DTV development staff has a firm understanding on how we use dual live buffers on the Tivo units they should be able to replicate those on the R15 and HR20.


----------



## lpctv

Wolffpack said:


> If you are currently recording two live shows and are flipping between those shows via the PREV button you cannot pause one and go the other. On the R15 that is. I don't have a HR20.


Wouldn't you consider the lack of pause and resume to be the same for this instance too? I mean, if it has been identified as a bug and the feature is supposed to be there, there is probably no difference between trying to view a whole previously recorded program and doing a pause and return vs. using the record 2 shows workaround for live buffers. In either case, you're relying on the same feature - or lack thereof - in which case, the wait for the fix for the bug...or, am I missing something?



> + features such as the applications in MIX channels or YES do not allow for recording at all. I don't know how those would impact dual live buffers. But from my stand point, if the DTV development staff has a firm understanding on how we use dual live buffers on the Tivo units they should be able to replicate those on the R15 and HR20.


Actually, since I don't have any receivers at this time that do any of that stuff, I'm not sure either. So, I guess what I was really after is to know if one records a ST game, and then uses any of the interactive buttons while watching it after the fact, what would happen? I would think that it's not like getting current time and such if you press the info button while watching a previously recorded show. Hopefully, I'm making some sort of sense here...and you see where I was going with it before.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the last point. Even said so previously. However, you're making an assumption that they would want to chase the horse even after they deliberately left the barn door open...because it seems evident (IMO) that they didn't do a whole lot of end user research beforehand.


----------



## Que

WOW 340 people voted! I had no idea that this poll would get this much attention. I wish they could sent out mailer to all D* subs just to see what they wanted. Thanks for voting!

65% -A must have!.......... That is just a small % that SEEN this poll.

Earl, 

Have you heard anything else on this?


----------



## Que

I have seen some threads asking about dual buffers. So just a little bump.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> WOW 340 people voted! I had no idea that this poll would get this much attention. I wish they could sent out mailer to all D* subs just to see what they wanted. Thanks for voting!
> 
> 65% -A must have!.......... That is just a small % that SEEN this poll.
> 
> Earl,
> 
> Have you heard anything else on this?


That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

If nothing else, yesterday's football games (along with the tennis final) showed how important dual buffers are.

Seeing how DirecTV has positioned themselves as the sports leader, they really need to consider the sports-centric consumer in their decision.

Thanks again for the info, Earl.


----------



## gdawg

I have had DIRECTIVO's for several years. I just purchased an HR20 and although I like some of the features, not having dual buffers is a big issue. Hopefully DTV will listen to their customers.


----------



## KCWolfPck

I'm sure this was a big issue with the R-15 user base as well.....still no dual buffers for the R-15, why should we expect the HR20 to be any different?


----------



## Wally_Gator

Earl Bonovich said:


> That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.


So, can we inferr that this has made it onto some sort of a roadmap?
Or is this still 50/50?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wally_Gator said:


> So, can we inferr that this has made it onto some sort of a roadmap?
> Or is this still 50/50?


Maybe 51/49 now.. 
Nothing has really changed since my last conversations...

They are more focused on correcting the current issues with the box, then adding major new features.


----------



## Drunk Wex

I signed up for the forum just to vote and post in this thread. My HR20 is coming Sept 28th, or sooner if they have an opening, so I really hope they add this feature very soon. I almost don't want to give up my HR10 because of this... The speed and image quality improvements better be worth it.

In the meantime I hope someone is able to find a work around so we'll have some sort of dual life buffer functionality.


----------



## BrettStah

Earl, I'm sure that they have smart people thinking about ways to implement it, but I'll post my suggestion here anyway:

First, I am assuming that the other tuner needs to be used for "other things" on occasion. 

The Tivos currently pop up a message, asking (paraphrasing here), "Is it OK if the other tuner is changed to a different channel?" This is for scheduled recordings, assuming that bother tuners are available and you're watching one tuner "live".

So that's one way of handling it - ask the user if it's OK. If it's not OK, just reschedule.

Another way is to keep track of activity on a per-tuner basis, and figure out a threshold of inactivity to watch for. For example, if you don't switch to one of the tuners after X minutes, the DVR will assume that it's OK to switch to a different channel to download VOD stuff. Then it can switch back to the original channel once that's done. I would recommend at least 120 minutes.


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.


Alright!! That sounds a lot better then before! So there going to do it, just need to find a way to implement it!

NICE!

[edit] Read Earl's 2nd post... So it about the same, right now.


----------



## cbearnm

Stanley Kritzik said:


> PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.
> 
> Stan
> 
> Stan


Boy, I hate to put myself out there and tempt the fates, but most drives are now rated in the area of 1,000,000 + hours MTBF, particularly from Seagate. That is approx 114 years. Even half that life will work for me. 
At the million hour mark though, if they have 3,000,000 customers with DVRs, that can be 3 units failing per hour, more than likely. (Pulled that number out of the air for demonstration purposes.)
I appreciate that drives do die, but it's probably not a big concern for D*. They are probably more concerned about copyright issues.
Personally, I would love to see them allow the SATA port or even the USB port to be used for archiving content, but I would virtually guarantee that it would be in a proprietery format that is useless on a PC. Even so, they would probably not do so.
RAID is a great idea, particularly as drive prices fall, but then the next logical step is removable RAID. It does no good to have a drive mirrored (or striped) if you have a fire and both drives are in it. So it makes sense to make it removable, so you can store it in a firesafe. Then we're back to copyright stuff. 
I think it is a great idea, I just don't see D* making it a priority, until at least MS or Dish or TiVo make it a 'feature' that D* needs to 'we can that too'.


----------



## aqua nut

I just put a call into the D* movers hotline because I'm moving. I was told there is an upgrade, to the new and improved HR20 so I accepted the deal. I decided to check out info on the new HR20 and the issue of NO dual live buffers is a big one! I found many sites with information about this. I for one use duel live buffer constantly and will not be without it after growing so attached. The new and improved HR20 will go into the kid’s room and I'll stick to the old HR10-250. Unless of course D* can work out an upgrade.


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## DougC

I agree with aqua nut. I've just had the HR20 installed Saturday and will be having it removed this coming Saturday. The HR20 is simply not useable between not having the dual buffer feture and no OTA HD receiving/recording. I use the dual buffer feature on my standard def TIVO almost anytime the TV is turned on! It sucks not having it so much, that they will either have to bring me an HR10-250 or I'll redeploy my std def tivo until both features are fixed in the HR20. It'll be for ever until Charleston, SC ever gets HD LIL considering we just got SD LIL 18 months ago!

Does anybody out there get the LA or NY HD LILs in markets where they aren't local yet? The CSR told me that its possible I could get NY HD LILs because my market doesn't have them yet, but it'll take 30 days for approval!


----------



## DougC

Just got off the phone with a fantastic engineer at the Customer Retention line (after talking with standard CSR, then installation group, then Level 2 Tech support).

He's going to send out a refurb HR10-250 for me to use until they straighten out the HR20 ATSC and Dual Buffer issue. I don't even have to return the HR20, I just have to remove the 'mirroring' from it until I'm ready to redploy it after they fix everything.

And for chits and giggles he threw in Super Fan package. I feel so much better about the whole experience. Another 8 years of D* in my future!


----------



## zh.guitar

HR20 is NOT good.

I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20. 

1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
2. The OTA is disabled. 

I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?

3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.


I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it. 

Can I sell it or will they want it back?


----------



## anubys

why not keep it? all the "problems" you're complaining about will be remedied soon...the only thing that may not happen is the dual buffers, and I suspect that, too, will be made available in a future upgrade...

I say get the HR10-250 and keep the H20 for now...it's not costing you anything to keep it...


----------



## zh.guitar

Thanks for the advice. That's what I am going to do.


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## judal98

A little late to the party here, but am pretty shocked that D* would degrade their flagship product through the elimination of dual buffers...def going to hold out for now...the Dish 622 still offers this feature no?


----------



## Wally_Gator

zh.guitar said:


> HR20 is NOT good.
> 
> I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20.
> 
> 1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
> 2. The OTA is disabled.
> 
> I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?
> 
> 3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.
> 
> I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it.
> 
> Can I sell it or will they want it back?


I say keep it and Call Customer retention with a good attitude. Explain your situation and what the problems are. They should be able to give you credits for your troubles. Just remember they are dealing with a-holes all day long and someone with some patience and a good attitude is nice for them to hear. I have received many credits speaking this way..


----------



## Que

zh.guitar said:


> HR20 is NOT good.
> 
> I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20.
> 
> 1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
> 2. The OTA is disabled.
> 
> I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?
> 
> 3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.
> 
> I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it.
> 
> Can I sell it or will they want it back?


Did you call retention? (800-824-9081) They can send you a refurbish HR10. They know about all the bugs HR20 has and that OTA is disabled.


----------



## Mike55Y

What a disappointment! I currently have the Samsung SD DVR, and have been waiting with eager anticipation for the HR20 so that I could record local channels in HD. I use the dual buffers for virtually all my watching, not just sports, but news shows, dramas, etc. For example, now if I want to see the weather forecast on two different channels, I can just flip back and forth. With an HR20, I would have to record the entire news broadcast, and then fast forward throught the whole thing to find the weather. It's not the same. If you gave me the choice, I would rather have dual buffers than the ability to record two shows at the same time. Also, I think a 90 minute buffer is almost a disadvantage since it fills up more of the hard drive. Two 30 minute buffers is just right.


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## JLove336

tag


----------



## BrettStah

Hey, does anyone see any major problems with the following?

Have a menu option to enable the second buffer. Make it clear that by enabling the second buffer, the 90 minute single buffer will now be replaced with two 45 minute buffers (to avoid consuming more disk space), and make it clear that if the background buffer isn't "actively used", the DVR may automatically switch to do background "maintenance" tasks. I would suggest a 60-90 minute threshold to determine whether the buffer is considered inactive or not.

So that would make dual buffers:

1) Optional, and most folks not interested would probably never even know about the option

2) Hopefully an acceptable solution to the folks complaining about the lack of dual buffers (assuming the "remember paused location" bug is fixed, of course )

3) Wouldn't take up more disk space than the single buffer currently does

4) Still allow for the background use of the second tuner that DirecTV apparently desires, since there's no realistic way for the vast, vast majority of users to keep both buffers active for an extended period of time - eventually you'll go to sleep, work, etc.


----------



## Que

BrettStah said:


> Hey, does anyone see any major problems with the following?
> 
> Have a menu option to enable the second buffer. Make it clear that by enabling the second buffer, the 90 minute single buffer will now be replaced with two 45 minute buffers (to avoid consuming more disk space), and make it clear that if the background buffer isn't "actively used", the DVR may automatically switch to do background "maintenance" tasks. I would suggest a 60-90 minute threshold to determine whether the buffer is considered inactive or not.
> 
> So that would make dual buffers:
> 
> 1) Optional, and most folks not interested would probably never even know about the option
> 
> 2) Hopefully an acceptable solution to the folks complaining about the lack of dual buffers (assuming the "remember paused location" bug is fixed, of course )
> 
> 3) Wouldn't take up more disk space than the single buffer currently does
> 
> 4) Still allow for the background use of the second tuner that DirecTV apparently desires, since there's no realistic way for the vast, vast majority of users to keep both buffers active for an extended period of time - eventually you'll go to sleep, work, etc.


Hey if that works. I'm fine with it! On the HR10 is only 30mins. Just need them to turn on OTA and I'm set. Oh as long as they are still planing on fixing it to save your pause point. Then sign me up!


----------



## bigcb37

Recent Tivo convert here. Directv gave no longer distributes HR10s so I got the HR20 without warning. 

I can deal with the non-tivo interface. In fact some things I like better. But the MUST HAVE feature is the Dual Buffer. I registered on this site just to vote in the poll. Please update your product D*!!!

I would be happy if it just had that...well that and a decent 30 sec skip. Terrible on the HR20...

I am holding out hope...good potential with this box.


----------



## jaywdetroit

I had a GREAT rep at the retention line and he told me the software engineers are aware of the desire for dual buffers and that they have it on their "to do" list.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> I had a GREAT rep at the retention line and he told me the software engineers are aware of the desire for dual buffers and that they have it on their "to do" list.


Or that reps knows where to find a good forum board to get the latest and greatest information...  ... Hello all you CSRs :hurah: :welcome_s


----------



## jaywdetroit

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or that reps knows where to find a good forum board to get the latest and greatest information...  ... Hello all you CSRs :hurah: :welcome_s


There was no doubt he read the forums. He told me as much. He was by far the most knowledable CSR i've talked to in my 8 years with D*


----------



## r00db0y

I had to register to vote in this poll also - as an NFL ST subscriber the dual buffer is a must. I also use it during normal viewing, but this is a deal breaker for the NFL ST.

I currently have a HR10-250 (early adopter) and I am going to wait out the OTA and dual buffer issues before getting an updated system.

Just had to add my $0.02.


----------



## talbain

hopefully their "to do" list is nothing like my "to do" list lol. otherwise it may never get done, just like my having to rebrick my walkway...


----------



## Que

talbain said:


> hopefully their "to do" list is nothing like my "to do" list lol. otherwise it may never get done, just like my having to rebrick my walkway...


I just hope that "to do" is real! Not just pushing us off..


----------



## houskamp

I want 16 live buffers then all the channels I watch would always be on :lol:


----------



## pattcap

g..... said:


> I would like it if DTV would give us a choice. Do we want the convenience of having on demand ppv available or would we rather have dual live buffers. Seems like it would be an easy option/choice that could be added to the menus. The ones who really want the dual buffers will not be upset and be unhappy users, and for the rest, they will have their on demand content available... Just thinking logic here...


Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?

Isn't the idea of having a DVR so you can watch what you want "On Demand"

People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.

This is about the stupidist reasoning I have seen for not having Live Dual Buffers. 
(NO offense intended here to the origional poster as I know you are just trying to figure out why we don't have something all Direct-Tivo uses have come to expect)

If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.

But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.

Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.

If you use the down arrow to switch back and forth, DO NOT UPGRADE TO AN HR20.

Had I known this going in, (My fault for not coming to this thread before hand) I would not have bought the $$$$ 40" LCD TV, the $$$ HR20, and my DTV Bill would be less $$ than it is now.

OK, I admit it, I am a little upset about this one. I guess I still have another 25 days or so to send it all back.....
...Edit....Added after reading the rest of the thread, up to date
It seems like D* is getting the message, But I am not paying for NFLST-SF until I have the second Buffer.....Yo, National Football League...Did U hear that?

What to put some real pressure on D* to enable Live Dual Buffers, Mention this to the NFL. 
We need to bring this to the attention of the NFL. >>I paid for NFL-ST, upgraded all my stuff to HD, and my awsome deal has turned to crap, NFL, tell D* to cut the price until I get my second Buffer.....<<

One thing is for certain, D* does not want to get a call from the NFL talking about PO'ed Sunday Ticket customers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?


Just because you don't want the feature, doesn't mean others don't.
It all depends on the library of OnDemand....

As many channels as there are... you are still limited to the broadcast schedule of those shows. One of the "OnDemand" featuers that will be comming are replays and pre-plays of network programming...

So 
1) If you missed to do a scheduling conflict, a mix up on your part, or technical reason... you can still get the show ~"now" and not rely on bittorrent or waiting for the rerun weeks or months later.... 
2) Then just mix in the library of shows... that might not even air on channels you receive.
3) Some networks are planning to even offer shows days earlier



pattcap said:


> People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.


Exactly correct... Watch what YOU want to watch, and when... you now remove one of the last restrictions.... YOU can choose some programming that even the current channels don't want to air.



pattcap said:


> If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.


What if it isn't ever aired again? or ever aired in the first place...
Of if you don't want to spend $12 a month for a premium channel when just want one show/movie?



pattcap said:


> But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.
> 
> Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.


I'm sorry out all the discussions I have ever had on this topic.... "Marketing" as a reason? come-on

As for Dual Buffers being the greates thing about dual tuners?
How about recording TWO things at once... without having TWO receivers to do it? I think that is the greatest thing about dual tuners...

If you did a pole amongst all (and by ALL I mean ALL... not just those that are on the forums), I would say that;
Most people use dual recording features of dual tuners, more then dual buffers. Heck... I live through my DVRs, and the only time I use dual buffers is when sports involved...


----------



## peni32

Damn ... I was ready to upgrade to the HR20 receiver, but I just use the dual buffer too much to do without it just yet... 

Is it something that can be applied in the future, or is the system just not capable of doing that?


----------



## Que

houskamp said:


> I want 16 live buffers then all the channels I watch would always be on :lol:


You can do that now!  ch102 and ch105. Hit the info button then audio tracks to change audio of the 8 channels. LOL


----------



## noobie937

Definatly miss that feature. Shoot, even UTV had dual buffers.


----------



## puffnstuff

peni32 said:


> Damn ... I was ready to upgrade to the HR20 receiver, but I just use the dual buffer too much to do without it just yet...
> 
> Is it something that can be applied in the future, or is the system just not capable of doing that?


Just got of the phone asked the same thing and was told no it will not ever be a feature because the hr 20 isn't capable of doing it . This isn't true is it?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

puffnstuff said:


> Just got of the phone asked the same thing and was told no it will not ever be a feature because the hr 20 isn't capable of doing it . This isn't true is it?


It is NOT true.

The HR20 is capable of doing it... as, there is only marginal difference between recording two programs at once, and recording two programs at once in buffers.

As of my last update on the issue, they are still identifying the best way to get the dual buffers in the system.


----------



## walters

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is capable of doing it... as, there is only marginal difference between recording two programs at once, and recording two programs at once in buffers.


Whether the difference is marginal or not really depends on the implementation. It is somewhat more difficult to maintain a 90 minute buffer indefinitely versus making a 90 minute recording.

Having said that, I'm sure the hardware itself is capable. We'll see about the developers.


----------



## bakerfall

I have to say that after my first football Sunday using the HR20, I didn't really think this would bother me as much as it did. I agree with Earl that dual buffers isn't that big a deal when watching TV shows, but for the NFL, it is a major disappointment.


----------



## talbain

bakerfall said:


> I have to say that after my first football Sunday using the HR20, I didn't really think this would bother me as much as it did. I agree with Earl that dual buffers isn't that big a deal when watching TV shows, but for the NFL, it is a major disappointment.


agreed. i'll tell you though, the interactive stuff with the live on screen stat tracking goes a LONG way in making up for it...


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

D* would seem to be contradicting itself here. D* is the Sports Leader, but they are removing one key feature that helps us enjoy those sports.

I really hope they are able to get a working solution.


----------



## pattcap

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because you don't want the feature, doesn't mean others don't.
> It all depends on the library of OnDemand....


Earl, I hear where you are coming from. 
It is my understanding that generally speaking, the cumulative sales of PPV, while consistent, have continually fallen well short of expectations. To the point where it is a great "marketing" thing to have, but as a revenue generator it falls well short relative to the "Feature Benifit" touted. In short, lots of people use it, but it is really more like a few people use it a lot while lots of people don't sue it much or at all.

I see VOD in a similar way. A few people will use it a lot while many will use it seldome and or if at all. 
BTW, I watched "The Class" four or five days early on my old DirecTIVO so I guess I have to confess to being a spoon fed VOD user. 
As for how large the VOD library is, limited by disk space, and how much people are willing to tollerate, but I doubt it can be very big, a few hours at most. 
Ding!!! It just dawned on me how attractive VOD program is and or could be to advertisers....



Earl Bonovich said:


> If you did a pole amongst all (and by ALL I mean ALL... not just those that are on the forums), I would say that;
> Most people use dual recording features of dual tuners, more then dual buffers. Heck... I live through my DVRs, and the only time I use dual buffers is when sports involved...


I agree completely.

As I explained to my wife on Sunday as we watched comercials during a football game (something she has not experienced in like 5 years) 
Tivo / DVR uses fall into two generalized groups, ones like her, and ones like me.

(Regular users) The wife has a few programs that she has set to record, like her soap, and a few prime time shows. When she has time, she watches the recorded program, a Standard time shift. 
She, usually us together, will watch a prime time show as it is recording. Start watching 20 min late and catch up about when it ends. 
and that is about agressive as she pushes the technology.

(Advanced and agressive users) After watcing all recorded content that suits the mood and time constraints, 
With my old equipment, I was a classic dual buffer switcher. In short, I watched 2 programs at the same time. I have been watching TV like this for the past five years, and I think it is fairly accurate that most users that have any time in this catagory have come to expect and throughly enjoy this aspect. 
While as a percetage of overall DVR users this is a significantly smaller group, which expands significantly on Sunday afternoon (read NFL-ST-SF) This is also the group that is most likely to be early addopters of the "New technology" and willing to spend the $$$ on it.

From the demeanor of your posts on the dual live buffers, it seems D* has seen and or is comming around to the shortcomings of thier origional concept for the HR20 and _in time_ will remidy the situation. I hope they make it a priority.

I am confident there are others that feel the same way as I do when I say, Had I known what I know now regarding this issue, I would waited and or considered other options regarding my significant $$$$ home entertainment upgrade.

BTW, Thanks for all the hard work you do keeping everyone here up to date.


----------



## Clint Lamor

pattcap said:


> Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?
> 
> Isn't the idea of having a DVR so you can watch what you want "On Demand"
> 
> People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.
> 
> This is about the stupidist reasoning I have seen for not having Live Dual Buffers.
> (NO offense intended here to the origional poster as I know you are just trying to figure out why we don't have something all Direct-Tivo uses have come to expect)
> 
> If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.
> 
> But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.
> 
> Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.
> 
> If you use the down arrow to switch back and forth, DO NOT UPGRADE TO AN HR20.
> 
> Had I known this going in, (My fault for not coming to this thread before hand) I would not have bought the $$$$ 40" LCD TV, the $$$ HR20, and my DTV Bill would be less $$ than it is now.
> 
> OK, I admit it, I am a little upset about this one. I guess I still have another 25 days or so to send it all back.....
> ...Edit....Added after reading the rest of the thread, up to date
> It seems like D* is getting the message, But I am not paying for NFLST-SF until I have the second Buffer.....Yo, National Football League...Did U hear that?
> 
> What to put some real pressure on D* to enable Live Dual Buffers, Mention this to the NFL.
> We need to bring this to the attention of the NFL. >>I paid for NFL-ST, upgraded all my stuff to HD, and my awsome deal has turned to crap, NFL, tell D* to cut the price until I get my second Buffer.....<<
> 
> One thing is for certain, D* does not want to get a call from the NFL talking about PO'ed Sunday Ticket customers.


So why exactly woud the NFL care if you get ST or not? DTV has already paid them their money so the only one it would effect is DTV. They will get the features that need to be added as they can get to them. I always find it quite amusing when people threaten I won't buy this service or that service if you don't do what I want. I get what you're trying to do but these type of features will be added if enough people ask for them, not if people act like kids and say i'm taking my ball and going home.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> As for how large the VOD library is, limited by disk space, and how much people are willing to tollerate, but I doubt it can be very big, a few hours at most.
> Ding!!! It just dawned on me how attractive VOD program is and or could be to advertisers....


Actually... The "library" will depend on how big of a disk space farm that can be built on the server side of things.... and that is virtually endless given today's technology (there are systems in the PETA-Byte range already).

And if they can get a distribution model that uses broadband... aka similar to what Cable-Co, and IPTV solutions use... then OnDemand would be on "par" as other OnDemand offerings.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I just don't see the appeal of on demand. My parents just got a digital cable with a large amount of on-demand stuff. My dad is a retired IT person, so he's not a luddite.

They tried it the first day, got bored, and haven't used it since.

To me, on-demand and DVR are one and the same thing.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I just don't see the appeal of on demand. My parents just got a digital cable with a large amount of on-demand stuff. My dad is a retired IT person, so he's not a luddite.
> 
> They tried it the first day, got bored, and haven't used it since.
> 
> To me, on-demand and DVR are one and the same thing.


DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.


----------



## PoitNarf

Earl Bonovich said:


> DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
> OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.


I just hope when D* implements this, they have a decent selection. I was at a friends house a few weeks ago who had Comcast. We were going through the OnDemand movies being offered, and of the 200+ being offered there was only about 4 movies that I actually recognized. Most were from the 80s for some reason and I had no desire to watch a single one of those.


----------



## lenwink

Earl Bonovich said:


> DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
> OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.


I want ON DEMAND, if only for Howard Stern and the WWE 24/7.......


----------



## RMSko

talbain said:


> agreed. i'll tell you though, the interactive stuff with the live on screen stat tracking goes a LONG way in making up for it...


Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Channel 701/702/703, I think...


----------



## bonscott87

RMSko said:


> Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.


You weren't watching it on a Sunday Ticket channel. Interactive features are available when watching Sunday Ticket games in the 700's.


----------



## tiger2005

I could not agree more. Dual Buffers are a necessity for me before I will upgrade to the HR20. If they try getting me to switch to the HR20 before they have implemented this, I will exercise my right as a consumer and leave D*. I understand this is a new box and they are working out the kinks, but they have had this problem with the R15 for awhile and have done nothing to address it. That is a failure on D*'s part in my opinion.


----------



## Chuck W

tiger2005 said:


> I could not agree more. Dual Buffers are a necessity for me before I will upgrade to the HR20. If they try getting me to switch to the HR20 before they have implemented this, I will exercise my right as a consumer and leave D*. I understand this is a new box and they are working out the kinks, but they have had this problem with the R15 for awhile and have done nothing to address it. That is a failure on D*'s part in my opinion.


That's what scares me, in that, the R15 has been around for a while now and it still doesn't have dual buffers. Based on that, I'd be hard pressed to expect the R20 to get them anytime soon, as it's either they really don't have a good idea how to implement it or they just don't "want" to do it.

As for swapping from the HR10, until the dual buffers is added, it's not gonna happen for me, as this is an ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL function for me and my wife. Also, when the time comes when they force me to either upgrade or lose programming that I currently receive, then the swap had better be free, because I have no intention of doling out more money, just to maintain what I have(I shouldn't have to play games with using my length of service(D* since 1999), to get it for free either, it should be a given, if I will lose programming). If it isn't free, then se la vie to Directv.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Comparing the R15 to HR20 is fair to a certain degree.

However... the R15 and the HR20 are actually 90% different systems.
(They share similar code segements such as Interactive)... but the engine/core of the unit are completely different.

While using the R15 as a benchmark for certain thinks is fair,and obvious.... The HR20 is it's own product/project.

If you wait long enough to move from the HR10 to the HR20 (As in to the point they are about to turn of MPEG-2 HD completely), then yes... you will probable get the swap for free... but that could be 12-18 months from now if not longer...

And all new national HD networks are expected to be in MPEG-4....


----------



## Chuck W

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you wait long enough to move from the HR10 to the HR20 (As in to the point they are about to turn of MPEG-2 HD completely), then yes... you will probable get the swap for free... but that could be 12-18 months from now if not longer...
> 
> And all new national HD networks are expected to be in MPEG-4....


My fear is HD locals. Currently I get NYC HD locals, but I am in the Hartford DMA. If they do try to turn them off on me and force me to the MPEG-4 Hartford HD locals(of which there is only a measly 2 of the 4 available), then this is where I would expect the HR20 to to be free, since I'd be losing programming otherwise(until they get all 4 up, I'd be losing programming, no matter what  ).

However, I'm not sure I'd lose the NYC HD locals, since they are considered SV locals for my area anyway.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

You can probably expect NYC MPEG-2 Locals to be shutdown by early/mid 2007


----------



## pattcap

Clint Lamor said:


> So why exactly woud the NFL care if you get ST or not? DTV has already paid them their money so the only one it would effect is DTV. They will get the features that need to be added as they can get to them. I always find it quite amusing when people threaten I won't buy this service or that service if you don't do what I want. I get what you're trying to do but these type of features will be added if enough people ask for them, not if people act like kids and say i'm taking my ball and going home.


I don't know how the deal is structured, but for some reason I would think the NFL gets a slice of each sunday ticket sold, but I don't know.

IMHO, 
Bottom line, The NFL cares a lot about consumer satisfaction, and does not want to do business with a company that might lessen the desire of their product. 
Think of it this way, Sunday Ticket people are huge NFL fans. If they get hacked at D* over the buffer issue, they cancle or drop their sunday ticket, and or get frustrated and lose interest.... The NFL does not like the idea of a super fan losing interest


----------



## pattcap

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually... The "library" will depend on how big of a disk space farm that can be built on the server side of things.... and that is virtually endless given today's technology (there are systems in the PETA-Byte range already).
> 
> And if they can get a distribution model that uses broadband... aka similar to what Cable-Co, and IPTV solutions use... then OnDemand would be on "par" as other OnDemand offerings.


OK, now you have lost me.
If D* is going to do VOD, then to be "on demand" doesn't it need to be On my reciever, taking up MY disk space.

This was one of the argument for not having the Dual Bufferes, so a tuner could/would be free for VOD content delivery at D* will. At least that is where it started, I thought.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> I don't know how the deal is structured, but for some reason I would think the NFL gets a slice of each sunday ticket sold, but I don't know.
> 
> IMHO,
> Bottom line, The NFL cares a lot about consumer satisfaction, and does not want to do business with a company that might lessen the desire of their product.
> Think of it this way, Sunday Ticket people are huge NFL fans. If they get hacked at D* over the buffer issue, they cancle or drop their sunday ticket, and or get frustrated and lose interest.... The NFL does not like the idea of a super fan losing interest


But how many Sunday Ticket Subscribers are there?
How many of them are DVR Users?
How many of them are DVR Users that have an issue with the lack of dual buffers?

Does that offset the nearly $500 million dollars (I think that is correct) that DirecTV "wrote a check" to the NFL for exclusive rights to Sunday ticket?

I don't think you will have more "fans" turning down Sunday because of the price of the package, not because the lack of dual live buffers.... (Note; As much as a football fan I am... I have never subscribed to Sunday Ticket... as I could never justify the cost.... I get the Bears local... and that is the only game I am "worried" about... The Internet and the tickers for the rest)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> OK, now you have lost me.
> If D* is going to do VOD, then to be "on demand" doesn't it need to be On my reciever, taking up MY disk space.
> 
> This was one of the argument for not having the Dual Bufferes, so a tuner could/would be free for VOD content delivery at D* will. At least that is where it started, I thought.


Most "OnDemand" systems work via the user makeing a request on their end.
Then the "service" pushes that content to them at the time of the request, or "relatively" at a later time

Some services like Comcast, can sometimes push it "real-time" so you can watch it live to a various degrees.. Most of the other services, such as Akimbo, and IPTV based systems... push it and store it on a hard drive, and then you can watch it (or start watching once enough is already on the hard drive)

Oh and the VOD that is already on your hard disk... is in an area of the disk resevered for DirecTV usage.
Aka, it is not part of your 100hrs (R15) or 30/50/250hrs (HR20) area


----------



## pattcap

Earl Bonovich said:


> Most "OnDemand" systems work via the user makeing a request on their end.
> Then the "service" pushes that content to them at the time of the request, or "relatively" at a later time
> 
> Some services like Comcast, can sometimes push it "real-time" so you can watch it live to a various degrees.. Most of the other services, such as Akimbo, and IPTV based systems... push it and store it on a hard drive, and then you can watch it (or start watching once enough is already on the hard drive)
> 
> Oh and the VOD that is already on your hard disk... is in an area of the disk resevered for DirecTV usage.
> Aka, it is not part of your 100hrs (R15) or 30/50/250hrs (HR20) area


So that is what happened to the extra space LOL, JK, This is something that I did not know, and it is nice to know.
So, if D* ever gets the "Showcases" going, which is essentially an area for them to put VOD stuff, it will use up their space as opposed to my space.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> So that is what happened to the extra space LOL, JK, This is something that I did not know, and it is nice to know.
> So, if D* ever gets the "Showcases" going, which is essentially an area for them to put VOD stuff, it will use up their space as opposed to my space.


Yes...


----------



## pattcap

Earl Bonovich said:


> But how many Sunday Ticket Subscribers are there?
> How many of them are DVR Users?
> How many of them are DVR Users that have an issue with the lack of dual buffers?
> 
> Does that offset the nearly $500 million dollars (I think that is correct) that DirecTV "wrote a check" to the NFL for exclusive rights to Sunday ticket?
> 
> I don't think you will have more "fans" turning down Sunday because of the price of the package, not because the lack of dual live buffers.... (Note; As much as a football fan I am... I have never subscribed to Sunday Ticket... as I could never justify the cost.... I get the Bears local... and that is the only game I am "worried" about... The Internet and the tickers for the rest)


I don't know how the deal works. $5MM for exclusive rights to the NFL, that sounds like a fantastic deal. OK, so now we know how much D* paid to have exclusivity.

There is no way the NFL said at that point, thanks see U next year. The NFL is getting a % of the total Sunday ticket revenue. (Of course I don't know this for fact, but I if I were the NFL I would insist on a percentage of the revenue. Those billionare owners didn't get rich by skipping out on revenue streams.)

Finally, the point I was making is:
For the Agressive Tivo / DVR users, the ones that have and will continue to make heavy use of their dual live bufferers, and Especially the sports fans, many of which are likely Sunday Ticket Subscribers and Potential Super Fan subs

It is very important they know that DirecTV's Brand New flag ship HD DVR, the HR20-700, does not have dual live buffers.  Thus, should they chose to upgrade to the HR20, they run a risk of being somewhat disapointed that their "upgrade" while providing better PQ, might leave them somewhat disapointed regarding their overall viewing experience with the "upgraded" equipment relative to what they were used to on their older equipment.

That said: It is cumforting to know there is an increasing chance that D* is considering they may have made a questionable decision regarding this issue and that it is possible D* will enable this highly coveted feature on their new Flagship Product in the (hopefully) not too distant future through a software upgrade.

Thanks for listening
Pattcap


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Okay... Sorry...

It wasn't $500 Million..
It was 3.5 BILLION
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA479045.html


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... Sorry...
> 
> It wasn't $500 Million..
> It was 3.5 BILLION
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA479045.html


Correct, for the entire deal. 2006-2010. Or as the article states, $700 mil per year.


----------



## talbain

RMSko said:


> Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.


yeah it's awesome. you can go to ch 795 to setup up to 9 players you want to keep track of. here you can also set whether you want the alerts frequently or a little less often. when one of the players on your list does anything, a bar pops up on whatever channel you're watching to let you know what happened.

aside from this, the mix and/or red zone channels (701/702/703) let you pull up all stat information for any game live and in real time. you press the green button (i think, but anyway the guide pops up after a few seconds) and this gives you the option to look at stats. you can navigate to any team or player's live stats, offense or defense. all the while the game you've highlighted plays in a window in the background.

i found myself using this feature even more than switching between the buffers on the tivo...

i always record the jets games, so during a break in the action i'd simply pause this then flip to the interactive channels for a look at what's going on.


----------



## Que

talbain said:


> yeah it's awesome. you can go to ch 795 to setup up to 9 players you want to keep track of. here you can also set whether you want the alerts frequently or a little less often. when one of the players on your list does anything, a bar pops up on whatever channel you're watching to let you know what happened.
> 
> aside from this, the mix and/or red zone channels (701/702/703) let you pull up all stat information for any game live and in real time. you press the green button (i think, but anyway the guide pops up after a few seconds) and this gives you the option to look at stats. you can navigate to any team or player's live stats, offense or defense. all the while the game you've highlighted plays in a window in the background.
> 
> i found myself using this feature even more than switching between the buffers on the tivo...
> 
> i always record the jets games, so during a break in the action i'd simply pause this then flip to the interactive channels for a look at what's going on.


Damn that sounds nice! Now when they get dual buffers to work, that will be so sweet!

[edit] And turn on OTA


----------



## Que

> Currently, technically a dual buffer does not exist.
> However, for all practical purposes something better exists.
> 
> Try this once! It works great!!!
> 
> 1.) Tune to channel A (live buffer of 90 min)
> 
> 2.) Use quick guide to record desired channel B (unlimited buffer)
> 
> 3.) Start playback of channel B recording
> 
> 4.) Press prev. button - will autopause and take you INSTANTLY back to live tv channel A
> 
> 5.) Press prev. button again and you will go back to recording INSTANTLY (channel B will auto play from where you had left off)
> 
> You can toggle the prev. button to repeat the tuner switch endlessly


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65736

Until we get true live dual buffers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Slyster said:


> Why does *anyone* need DUAL BUFFERS anyway?
> Just record both programs and watch them later.. um... no brainer... BONUS: now you can watch them ONE at a time and don't have to switch back and forth interupting the flow of the episode you are seeing.


Agreed. Doesn't the R in DVR stand for recorder? 

To me, dual buffer viewing is kinda like watching 2 strippers at the same time - you can only see so much for so long, before losing interest in the other show or else you forget what the other show even looks like...and hopefully you don't miss anything! :lol:

Yeah, I guess for the platinum level couch potato who wants to push green, yellow, red, and blue buttons all night, it may be nice to have trick buttons and the like, but certainly, these are neither "critical" nor "must have" items. :nono2:

Not to worry...at the rate that D* has delivered firmware updates, my guess is that these HR20's will be able to turn on just with an owner's mind-meld thoughts and no hands before you know it. :eek2:


----------



## bigviking

anubys said:


> I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...


No real reason that dual buffers should impact the buffer time. This unit doesn't have enough RAM to have the buffers stored anywhere other than disk, to wether it's 20, 30, or 90 minutes, 1 or two buffers the number of minutes you can go back is really just an arbitrary number chosen by DirecTV.

IT's only when the hard drive nears full that it becomes an issue at all.


----------



## matto

bigviking said:


> IT's only when the hard drive nears full that it becomes an issue at all.


Maybe they could spare some of the _dedicated_ disk space that the stupid VOD, downloaded with its _dedicated_ tuner gets.

What a stupid, desperate, mee-too feature.

"Look, we can do VOD just like the cable companies! All we need to do is stuff random crap on your DVR and hope it is the 'video' that you happen to 'demand'! We could have let you record three shows you _wanted_ at once, or let you record two shows and watch another live, but instead, we give you bogus VOD! We hope you wanted 'Pirates of the Carribean 3', because thats what we shoved onto your DVR!"


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

But the only differentiation that D* makes over Dish, Cable, and FIOS is its sports programming. If they don't support the sports subscriber and his need for dual buffers, there's not a lot of reason to stay with D*, is there?


----------



## Que

matto said:


> Maybe they could spare some of the _dedicated_ disk space that the stupid VOD, downloaded with its _dedicated_ tuner gets.
> 
> What a stupid, desperate, mee-too feature.
> 
> "Look, we can do VOD just like the cable companies! All we need to do is stuff random crap on your DVR and hope it is the 'video' that you happen to 'demand'! We could have let you record three shows you _wanted_ at once, or let you record two shows and watch another live, but instead, we give you bogus VOD! We hope you wanted 'Pirates of the Carribean 3', because thats what we shoved onto your DVR!"


I hate spam!!!

I did watch "Check out the new Chrysler Aspen" LOL I really wish there was a way to opt out.


----------



## BicentennialHeel

Since this has seemingly turned into a Sunday Ticket thread, I have a question. There is the option to use a hot key (I think "Red") that pulls up all the scores of the games and you can still see the channel you are watching. Some of these scores are different colors (green, red and blue) and all have an arrow in the background behind one of the teams that is different lengths. I suspect that the arrow is behind the team with possession of the ball, but have not been able to correlate the length of the arrows. (I thought a field possession, or length of possession, but don't think it is either.) 

Clarification is welcome. Or if there is a resource that explains these things that I have missed, please point me there. 

Thanks.


----------



## bonscott87

BicentennialHeel said:


> Since this has seemingly turned into a Sunday Ticket thread, I have a question. There is the option to use a hot key (I think "Red") that pulls up all the scores of the games and you can still see the channel you are watching. Some of these scores are different colors (green, red and blue) and all have an arrow in the background behind one of the teams that is different lengths. I suspect that the arrow is behind the team with possession of the ball, but have not been able to correlate the length of the arrows. (I thought a field possession, or length of possession, but don't think it is either.)
> 
> Clarification is welcome. Or if there is a resource that explains these things that I have missed, please point me there.
> 
> Thanks.


Arrow gets closer to the right side the closer to the endzone the team is. The game goes red background and arrows when one of the teams is in the redzone. Green I can't remember, perhpas a timeout or halftime.

Same color coding and arrows are used on the Mix channels 701 and 702. This has the be the greatest feature for me since I can quickly go to the mix channel and then select a game that's in the redzone or a game where one of my fantasy players is on offense.


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## tiger2005

Dual buffers are one of the best features on a DVR and D* has totally ignored it in their R15 and HR20 models. What is up with that? How you can create your own DVR and not include, at a minimum, all the non-patented features of the most popular DVR on the market? Imitation is the sincerest form of flatterly. If you want to add your own features after that, great! But that should be done only after you have delivered a product your customers will accept, not a product they are worried will affect the way they watch TV therefore they would rather leave for a competitor that offers the very functionality you used to offer.


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## sandiegojoe

Que said:


> -link to tips on pseudo dual buffers-
> 
> Until we get true live dual buffers.


I like it. It's close enough to dual buffers for the time being. Hopefully, we'll have an easier solution in the near future.


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## Aria

anubys said:


> I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...


If possible now or in the future, two 60 minute live buffers would be great.


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## cbearnm

A couple of thoughts;

Sunday Ticket is really not marketed to football fans in their own teams market (like in Earl's case) it is promoted for people like me, a Steelers fan in New Mexico. This year is a bit of an exception, so far (and including this weekend) all their games have been primetime or the national game. BUt in previous years, it was theonly way I would see more than2 or 3 games a year. I find that when the Steelers are in prime time or off, I do jump around the other games, mostly because of fantasy football. Dual buffers is virtually vital for me. I like to check out other games during commercial breaks of the Steelers. I will pause the Steeler game, check the other games, then return and zap through the commercial. There are times the other games are compelling enough that I would have missed some Steelers action without the buffers. I know I 'could' record the game, but jumping back and forth with the HR20 is cumbersome.

Length of buffer is inconsequential (as BigViking said), the program is not held in RAM but merely streamed to/from the hard drive. If you have 2 1-hour buffers, your drive theoretically has 2 hours less capacity, that is all. They could be 30 minutes or 5 hours and have no cost to D* (other than advertised capacity). Their length is totally arbitrary.


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## Que

Did anyone keep the box with the HR20? Did it have OTA on it?


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## hdtvfan0001

Que said:


> Did anyone keep the box with the HR20? Did it have OTA on it?


Mine does, and no warning to the contrary. Its also in the manual (with no sticker or contrary statement).

It'll be there pretty soon....


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## pattcap

If I had not put all that $$$$ into a new High Def LCD TV, I would call up D* and say take this thing back.
Call me when it works the way the old one does.

Had I known, this would still have been a deal breaker for me. 

D* are you listening, Making any progress? 
Four new software versions since My unit was installed. 
I guess you have to get the thing working before you can make it do what everyone really wants it to do. 

Keep working on it, and any idea when it might be ready for the Real World ???


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## Wolffpack

pattcap said:


> If I had not put all that $$$$ into a new High Def LCD TV, I would call up D* and say take this thing back.
> Call me when it works the way the old one does.
> 
> Had I known, this would still have been a deal breaker for me.
> 
> D* are you listening, Making any progress?
> Four new software versions since My unit was installed.
> I guess you have to get the thing working before you can make it do what everyone really wants it to do.
> 
> Keep working on it, and any idea when it might be ready for the Real World ???


Sounds like they're listening now. But back in November of last year when the first R15 users were complaining about the lack of dual live buffers they most definitely were not listening. If they had listened back then, maybe the HR20 would have been released with Dual Buffers.


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## trey85stang

doesnt bother me a bit to not have it.


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## Que

trey85stang said:


> doesnt bother me a bit to not have it.


Thanks for voting!

589 votes

71.65% - A must have!

7.47% - Don't really care about it.

20.88% -Like the option but, Ok if it's not there.

This is just mainly a small bump.


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## joejhawk

The only thing this poll proves is that 92.53% of the people who are on this forum would like dual buffers. As we all know, this forum is made up of mostly higher tech, Sunday Ticket watching, gadget loving customers. So maybe D* doesn't feel the need to cater to this cross-section of their customer base. I mean, is it REALLY important for them to try to keep us happy? They still have all of their other customers.


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## burnside

When I see this poll and how there are nearly 600 votes on it (at this time), I do not see 600 individual votes, I see 600 family/household votes. My choice in cars, electronics, investments are not made for me, but instead for my family. Likewise, when I bring a crippled product in the house, I'm not the only one bothered by it's shortcomings.

In our house we have an HR20, even though we have two HDTVs. My wife insisted that we do not replace the DirecTivo in our bedroom because she likes the following that the HR20 does not have:

1) Dual Live buffers (she loves it and always uses it)
2) Instantaeous 30 second skip (true you have to program it on the remote, but it speeds her process of watching her shows before going to work)
3) Tivo interface

There are more complaints she has, but those are the main ones. My point is, once a "tech" person shows their family how to use a product, the family will adopt anything that makes their life or experience better. When you take away those conveniences... well, in my case it is ME who loses!!! We have a 32" HDTV in our bedroom and I can't get HD to it because she will not live without the tivo!

I can't blame her either. DirecTV - you have to use the Tivo as a benchmark and work up from there. Dual Live buffers is just a start. I hope one day my family will be just as interested in your machine as they are in our Tivo and Ipods.


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## Wolffpack

joejhawk said:


> The only thing this poll proves is that 92.53% of the people who are on this forum would like dual buffers. As we all know, this forum is made up of mostly higher tech, Sunday Ticket watching, gadget loving customers. So maybe D* doesn't feel the need to cater to this cross-section of their customer base. I mean, is it REALLY important for them to try to keep us happy? They still have all of their other customers.


I disagree. The only thing this poll proves is that the higher tech, ST or other sports buying subscribers want this. That's where DTV get's their profit. DTV doesn't make much profit off "their other customers".


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## tonyd79

Yup. Realize that the dual buffer users are largely folk who buy Sunday Ticket and sports packages.

Besides, if 92.53% of a group are for something, you can bet darn tooting that a reasonable size of the other groups would be for it, too.


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## btmoore

tonyd79 said:


> Yup. Realize that the dual buffer users are largely folk who buy Sunday Ticket and sports packages.
> 
> Besides, if 92.53% of a group are for something, you can bet darn tooting that a reasonable size of the other groups would be for it, too.


I disagree with your ST comment, I have never had nor want Sunday Ticket, and I used the dual buffers all the time and I think many other users do to. I would use the dual buffers just to channel surf to make sure I did not loose content I was watching on the other tuner. For example, I may be watching the news on one tuner, a commercial comes on and I press the down arrow and move over to something like comedy central. I would watch it for while and when a commercial comes on I would hit the down arrow and rewind and watch the news I missed. I used the dual buffers every day like this. I find it frustrating and I have had many "Doh!" moments with the HR20 when I will forget there are no dual buffers and I change the channel then I recall "crap" the content from that tuner is lost.

This is one of the best features on the dual tuner Tivos, I hope they implement this on the HR20's, I think the poll is extreamly reflective of what the user community want to see in the DVR.


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## carl6

I am also not a big sports program viewer, and dual buffers are not important to me in that regard. However, I do like them, and do feel that they are an important feature for a DVR.

While I agree that forum users probably do not accurately reflect the larger general population of DVR users (tend to be more technically oriented and may be less satisfied with the product), I feel that the mere size of this particular poll is significant, and that the results are meaningful.

I believe that dual buffers will be added to the HR20. I really really hope they will also be added to the R15. Just because this particular poll is in the HR20 forum, I do not believe the trend of the responses is limited to that platform.

Carl


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## jclark

Not to bring up an old topic but last night I was watching live TV, and it is very frustrating not having dual buffers. I kept wanting to hit the down arrow every time a commercial came on, but I couldn't. This is the biggest issue I have trying to adjust to the new DVR. I may be able to adjust in time, but for now it is a pretty big annoyance.


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## joejhawk

Just to clarify my point above, a larger percentage of ST subscribers use dual buffers than the "Others" (that reminds me, Lost is still unwatchable.) My mother-in-law who does not have ST nor is technolgically advanced returned her boxes and went back to cable as soon as she found out she didn't have dual buffers with the HR20.

Also, D* has to keep the ST subscribers happy because without that advantage they probably would be out of business.


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## Scott_NJ

If the buffers are controlled by the software, why not give people the option to select dual buffers or one large buffer? This would satisfy both sides of the fence and give this box the edge over the competition! They could give you a menu option to select what you want, when you want it. I use the dual buffers during football, too. But that is really about it. I would like the large buffer most of the time, but when football season hits, I would switch to dual mode.


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## crockett

In hopes that sheer numbers will do anything to this HUGE oversite. Include my entire family as wanting dual buffers.

We have a Tivo upstairs and we are all "dual buffer" proficient.

I'd also like to add this has nothing to do with Sunday NFL Ticket. We have never had it. However, it did start with me watching football on Sunday afternoons. After teaching my other family members to use it, we all now use it on a daily basis for all types of TV watching, not just sports.

Anytime anyone goes to use the HR20 in basement they get upset because it lacks dual buffers.


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## Greywall

Given the history of most HD DVR users with Tivo based DVR's, it would be natural for people proficient in dual buffer operation to expect it as a feature. There are many other uses to dual buffer operation besides sports that make it a worthwhile investment on D*'s dev resources to implement this feature.


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## jclark

Just a thought... I wonder if they chose not to add that feature because people are more likely to stay and watch the commercials during live TV. I know that I do. I am afraid that if I switch channels, I may miss it when my show starts up again. With dual buffers I didn't have to worry, I could just rewind. It is just a thought, but it seems that the 30sec skip feature was designed with advertisers in mind.


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## Wolffpack

jclark said:


> Just a thought... I wonder if they chose not to add that feature because people are more likely to stay and watch the commercials during live TV. I know that I do. I am afraid that if I switch channels, I may miss it when my show starts up again. With dual buffers I didn't have to worry, I could just rewind. It is just a thought, but it seems that the 30sec skip feature was designed with advertisers in mind.


I think you're giving them WAY too much credit. I believe it was a complete oversight and something that the developers (notice I didn't say the DVR+ marketing team) didn't even take into account and possibly didn't even know about. Regardless of the platform of the R15 and HR20, it's easy to see that DTV's DVR+ line was based on the NDS XTV Sky+ boxes. Even though they may have rewritten the code on the HR20, no one took the time to design a new DVR. No one took the time to review what the Tivo/UTV/ReplayTV and even cable/E* DVRs currently do.

To me, one of the most lame implementations of any electronics appliance in recent history.


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## tstarn

Wolffpack said:


> I think you're giving them WAY too much credit. I believe it was a complete oversight and something that the developers (notice I didn't say the DVR+ marketing team) didn't even take into account and possibly didn't even know about. Regardless of the platform of the R15 and HR20, it's easy to see that DTV's DVR+ line was based on the NDS XTV Sky+ boxes. Even though they may have rewritten the code on the HR20, no one took the time to design a new DVR. No one took the time to review what the Tivo/UTV/ReplayTV and even cable/E* DVRs currently do.
> 
> To me, one of the most lame implementations of any electronics appliance in recent history.


Is it safe to agree with you Wolff? I am ducking the flames already. But you're right. I can't remember a more disappointing launch of a more anticipated tech product.


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## Wolffpack

tstarn said:


> Is it safe to agree with you Wolff?


Do so at your own risk. :lol:


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## RCY

So, two months since the thread started and no peep out of D* on when this would actually be implemented? Could it be they're stalling and seeing if lack of dual buffers really impacts their numbers? 

My experience in the software industry is, if it isn't in the "build plan" with a schedule date, it doesn't exist...


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## skierbri10

RCY said:


> So, two months since the thread started and no peep out of D* on when this would actually be implemented? Could it be they're stalling and seeing if lack of dual buffers really impacts their numbers?
> 
> My experience in the software industry is, if it isn't in the "build plan" with a schedule date, it doesn't exist...


I think they have bigger fish to fry right now...Dual buffers whether you like it or not is not an essential problem or feature at this point. :grin:


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## hdtvfan0001

Wolffpack said:


> To me, one of the most lame implementations of any electronics appliance in recent history.


Obviously you have not bought a washer or dryer in the past year or so....even Maytag has reduced their warranties down to 1 year. :eek2:

My HR20 has never lost an SD or HD scheduled recording, dropped any audio, had amny playback problems, or failed to do any commands I asked (jump, roll over, beg). :grin:

That said, obviously some others have had issues. It'll be interesting to see what today's update does to your stability. In terms of the blanket "in history" statement...we get your point, even if its a gross overstatement. Thanks for your opinion, honest.


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## hdtvfan0001

skierbri10 said:


> I think they have bigger fish to fry right now...Dual buffers whether you like it or not is not an essential problem or feature at this point. :grin:


Thems the facts. HDMI has been at the root of 50% of the problems, and the most recent update hopes to reduce that number significantly.


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## tstarn

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Obviously you have not bought a washer or dryer in the past year or so....even Maytag has reduced their warranties down to 1 year. :eek2:
> 
> My HR20 has never lost an SD or HD scheduled recording, dropped any audio, had amny playback problems, or failed to do any commands I asked (jump, roll over, beg). :grin:
> 
> That said, obviously some others have had issues. It'll be interesting to see what today's update does to your stability. In terms of the blanket "in history" statement...we get your point, even if its a gross overstatement. Thanks for your opinion, honest.


Still sticking to your guns about the great success of the HR-20 launch HD? Just browsing the posts on the new software download, and there seems to be a new glitch, FF on programs recorded after the download. I didn't record anything yet post-download, but I'm not optimistic based on the early results/feedback. Seems we who don't have the perfect machines are just going from one issue to the next.

Bu we're all a captive audience, and there really isn't much choice (Comcast, Dish or nothing). I'm backing off any over-emotional posts (so spare me a flame), because at this point, D* is starting to wear me down. I hope my box works like yours (and those of your 14 friends) is all I can say. I'm weary from the download conga line, so I'll just back up my important programming with the R10 and fuggedaboutit.


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## hdtvfan0001

tstarn said:


> Still sticking to your guns about the great success of the HR-20 launch HD?


Yup. Still true here.

Hopefully, this download today reduces the list of outstanding "issues" for everyone, including your situation, my friend.

The FF MPEG4 pixelation is a known hiccup (see release notes) that should be gone in the next firmware update. My guess is these HDMI issues (I have none, but others do) will continue to diminish each new update as well.

Best wishes.


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## RCY

skierbri10 said:


> I think they have bigger fish to fry right now...Dual buffers whether you like it or not is not an essential problem or feature at this point. :grin:


The fact that they have "bigger fish to fry" says a lot about the current state of the HR20. I do like D* and would eventually like to have HD, so I guess I continue to wait for now.


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## Wolffpack

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Obviously you have not bought a washer or dryer in the past year or so....even Maytag has reduced their warranties down to 1 year. :eek2:


Nope. My 18 year old Kenmore W&D keep running just fine. Back when the only electronics were switches and relays.


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## NFLnut

pattcap said:


> If I had not put all that $$$$ into a new High Def LCD TV, I would call up D* and say take this thing back.
> Call me when it works the way the old one does.
> 
> Had I known, this would still have been a deal breaker for me.
> 
> D* are you listening, Making any progress?
> Four new software versions since My unit was installed.
> I guess you have to get the thing working before you can make it do what everyone really wants it to do.
> 
> Keep working on it, and any idea when it might be ready for the Real World ???


You've got THAT right!! I just bought a DLP and thus wanted to upgrade to HD in time for football season. I ASKED FOR an HR10. I was told that there were none left, so I would "be getting an HR20." I thought .. well, okay, at least the locals will be available on the sat, "but I'd rather have the TiVo."

FF (if you can with the FF and frame loop bug  ) to today with this latest software that has taken a fairly functional DVR to a DYSfunctional DVR, and I am ready to drive the car over this shiny new HR20!! :mad2:


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## bigpuma

So far I like this unit. If it just had dual live buffers and a true 30 second skip I wouldn't miss my TiVo at all.


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## jclark

Glad you bumped this. I switched back to Tivo this weekend because of the lack of dual buffers. I can't live without dual buffers. But then, I missed some of the features on the HR20. So I ended up running two more lines so that I could hook both of them up. I think this obsession with DVR's shows me that I need to get a life.


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## terrapin

jclark said:


> Glad you bumped this. I switched back to Tivo this weekend because of the lack of dual buffers. I can't live without dual buffers. But then, I missed some of the features on the HR20. So I ended up running two more lines so that I could hook both of them up. I think this obsession with DVR's shows me that I need to get a life.


J, you and I are in the same situation! I also installed my HR10 additionally because the dual buffers were important to me (and my wife), and becuase the HR20 OTA tuners aren't on yet (the difference between ota hd and mpeg4 hd is visible). I switch between tv inputs to view the different receivers, and I can record 4 shows at once.

I was invited to participate in a DTV forum here in LA, but alas, I was scheduled to be out of town. They were paying $100 for two hours of my opinions on DTV-- great deal, eh?

This shows they are genuinely interested. I really like D* in a lot of areas. To answer the question: what one thing they could D* do to improve my experience, I would say loud and clear: DUAL LIVE BUFFERS!

Oh, just because you love your sat tv doesn't mean you need a life! I love mine, too, and life is good.


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## jschuman

As of now the only thing keeping me from wholeheartedly recommending the HR20 to my friends is the lack of dual buffers. When I talk to friends that currently have DirecTivos and I tell them about the HR20, they are universally accepting of the features/functionality/drawbacks of the HR20 as I describe them, with one major exception: when I mention that there are NO DUAL BUFFERS the almost unanimous response is "oh - well that just [stinks]".

If you're listening DirecTv - please, please ADD dual buffer support.


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## burnside

bigpuma said:


> So far I like this unit. If it just had dual live buffers and a true 30 second skip I wouldn't miss my TiVo at all.


That's exactly how I feel. I like how much quicker it is and I think the search features are better than my tivo. I also like how easy it is to record. Get the dual live buffers and 30 second skip and I won't even think about my Tivo anymore.


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## tiorio

My first weekend with HD Sunday Ticket and it SUCKS. No dual live buffers is terrible. TERRIBLE. Ugh...


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## Que

Bump. Just for all the new people here.


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## crockett

Bumping once again to keep this important issue to the top in hopes that D* fixes this in a firmware update.

Went to dinner this weekend with friends. He was quizzing me about making the switch to HD (he is a D* subscriber as well) and we got on the topic of the HR20. The conversation was kind of funny as my wife and myself had to explain to them that dual live buffers were not available.

For awhile they just couldn't understand how it could record two programs at the same time but did not provide 2 live buffers. Finally, they understood and both agreed they would not be abandonning their current box simply for this reason, even though just a week prior they were contemplating the swtich. They both use dual live buffers daily.

We all finalized on "Why not just make two 45 minutes live buffers and be done with it?"

This is the second set of friends we've ended up having this conversation with. Both sets of friends felt that the dual live buffers were a very important feature to them. The first set of friends it was a no brainer because he's a football nut and has ST.


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## mtnagel

tiorio said:


> My first weekend with HD Sunday Ticket and it SUCKS. No dual live buffers is terrible. TERRIBLE. Ugh...


This has probably been posted in this thread somewhere and I've posted it in other threads, but maybe it will be useful for you.

Just record both games. To start watching the first, hit List and highlight the first game and press play. When I want to switch to the other, just hit stop and that takes you to the list and then you highlight the second game and press play. Yes, it's maybe a click or two more than the pause/down arrow on a TiVo and definitely not as elegant, but it works. I just don't understand why everyone is so upset about the lack of dual buffers. Yes, you have to record the two games, but who cares? I guess if you were running low on space it might be an issue or if you want to skip around between more than two games.


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## joejhawk

mtnagel said:


> This has probably been posted in this thread somewhere and I've posted it in other threads, but maybe it will be useful for you.
> 
> Just record both games. To start watching the first, hit List and highlight the first game and press play. When I want to switch to the other, just hit stop and that takes you to the list and then you highlight the second game and press play. Yes, it's maybe a click or two more than the pause/down arrow on a TiVo and definitely not as elegant, but it works. I just don't understand why everyone is so upset about the lack of dual buffers. Yes, you have to record the two games, but who cares? I guess if you were running low on space it might be an issue or if you want to skip around between more than two games.


When watching football, I like to be able to switch between multiple games. For instance, I'll put the Bucs game on one tuner, pause it, switch to the other tuner and check out several games by changing the channel on that tuner. Then switch back, unpause my Bucs game and watch them continue to suck. It's all very easy and lets me watch interesting parts of multiple games. Which is why I PAY FOR SUNDAY TICKET IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

Sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you.:grin:

PLUS: every time I try to do a complex task like that, the system freezes up, I lose the recording and the 30 minutes it takes to reboot.


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## crockett

The reason you don't understand the frustration is I'm guessing you've never owned a Tivo.

Yes your work around works for that particular situation, i.e. where you have planned to watch two particular programs ahead of time and you have scheduled them for recording.

But think of these scenarios. We'll use primetime TV because a lot of people think this is only a "sports" issue but it's more than that.

You plop down and notice a certain program is on and begin watching it, it occurs to you that there is something of interest on another channel (maybe some live news event from CNN, etc.) that you want to check out. On a Tivo you just hit pause, the down arrown and you are now watching the other tuner. You switch to CNN and watch this for awhile. Then you hit pause and the down arrow and your back to original program exactly where you left off, plus the CNN live news broadcast is paused for you exactly where you left off. You don't have to worry about getting back in time for the next commercial break because it is paused. Eventually this live news update ends and now you can surf to find something else to watch at the same time you're watching your main program. You can essentially do this all night watching TV if you wish. You never have to set up something to record or anything.

Doing it your way would just be so much more clunky if you were surfing around over a 2-3 hour period always watching 2 programs at the same time. And this also assumes you have the hard disk space available to do it. You would also end up with a bunch of partial recordings that you have to go back and delete.


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## mtnagel

joejhawk said:


> When watching football, I like to be able to switch between multiple games. For instance, I'll put the Bucs game on one tuner, pause it, switch to the other tuner and check out several games by changing the channel on that tuner. Then switch back, unpause my Bucs game and watch them continue to suck. It's all very easy and lets me watch interesting parts of multiple games. Which is why I PAY FOR SUNDAY TICKET IN THE FIRST PLACE!!
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to yell at you.:grin:
> 
> PLUS: every time I try to do a complex task like that, the system freezes up, I lose the recording and the 30 minutes it takes to reboot.


Well, as I said, I guess my "workaround" doesn't work if you want to switch around with more than 2 games.  I only watch 2 games (hometown team and local team), so this is never an issue for me.


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## mtnagel

crockett said:


> The reason you don't understand the frustration is I'm guessing you've never owned a Tivo.
> 
> Yes your work around works for that particular situation, i.e. where you have planned to watch two particular programs ahead of time and you have scheduled them for recording.
> 
> But think of these scenarios. We'll use primetime TV because a lot of people think this is only a "sports" issue but it's more than that.
> 
> You plop down and notice a certain program is on and begin watching it, it occurs to you that there is something of interest on another channel (maybe some live news event from CNN, etc.) that you want to check out. On a Tivo you just hit pause, the down arrown and you are now watching the other tuner. You switch to CNN and watch this for awhile. Then you hit pause and the down arrow and your back to original program exactly where you left off, plus the CNN live news broadcast is paused for you exactly where you left off. You don't have to worry about getting back in time for the next commercial break because it is paused. You can essentially do this all night watching TV if you wish. You never have to set up something to record or anything.
> 
> Doing it your way would just be so much more clunky if you were surfing around over a 2-3 hour period always watching 2 programs at the same time. And this also assumes you have the hard disk space available to do it. You would also end up with a bunch of partial recordings that you have to go back and delete.


Well, football is the only time that I ever used the dual buffers with my TiVo (yes I've had a TiVo for over 3 years before getting the HR20). So to me, my "workaround" works just fine. I didn't say it would be for everyone, but maybe it will help others.


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## crockett

Also, I"ve just learned this BIG drawback with the HR20.

Since you've own a TiVo don't you ever do this?

You're watching a live TV program and you are caught up. So you decide to pause so it you don't have to suffer the pain of sitting through the commercials and you go watch something on your list. When you come back to the program you were watching it is paused at the point you left off at on a TiVo.

On a HR20 it is not. You have to rewind back to the point you left off at. What a major pain.

At least for me, the whole reason for DVRs is to watch relatively commercial free TV. I've been able to record programs via. my VCR for many many years before TiVo came along.

This lack of PAUSE of the live buffer, no dual live buffer and lack of 30 second skip really makes me wonder if D* has some agreeement with some agency that governs TV commercials.


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## bonscott87

And come on guys, there is no need to keep bumping this just for the sake of bumping to keep it on DirecTv's radar. It's obviously near the top of their list after they get the box more stable and OTA working. Those are certainly much more important then dual buffers at this point I think you all should agree. 

And just for disclosure I've had various DirecTivo's for 5 years now and I don't miss dual buffers, even during Sunday Ticket. I just use the mini-guide (blue button) to quickly move between games or use the red button to bring up the ring of scores and flip around that way. I can always record one game and use the other tuner to flip around amoung the other games. But that's just me.


----------



## bonscott87

crockett said:


> You're watching a live TV program and you are caught up. So you decide to pause so it you don't have to suffer the pain of sitting through the commercials and you go watch something on your list. When you come back to the program you were watching it is paused at the point you left off at on a TiVo.


There ya go. I don't watch Live TV. Almost never since I got my first stand alone Tivo 6 years ago. Only time I watch live is during Sunday Ticket. The DVR to me is so that I'm *not* watching live TV. 
Just record your program in the first place and you're not watching any commercials. Ever.


----------



## mikewolf13

bonscott87 said:


> It's obviously near the top of their list after they get the box more stable and OTA working.


I don't see any reason to believe that:

A) dual buffers will happen
B) That there is even a list
C) That Dual Buffers is near the top of suppossed list
D) That the location of dual buffers at the top of suppossed list is obvious.


----------



## crockett

I disagree that it is not necessary to keep an issue on D* radar. It is quite obvious that many people feel this way.

Also, if I was in D* position I would definately want this issue resolved before all those TiVo's become obsolete. You know their call centers will be flooded with calls regarding these very issues and this will only take away from "our" ability to receive a better product and service.

And take it from someone who has a TiVo upstairs but a HR20 downstairs, it is not an issue you forget very easy when you're sitting there with a remote in your hand going...o.k. let's see how can I change the channel and not lose what I'm watching.....arrrghh damn HR20. With a TiVo it's pause and down. Now that's frustrating considering this is newer technology.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> I don't see any reason to believe that:
> 
> A) dual buffers will happen
> B) That there is even a list
> C) That Dual Buffers is near the top of suppossed list
> D) That the location of dual buffers at the top of suppossed list is obvious.


a) Dual Buffers is still being discussed... as far as I know, they haven't decided one way or the other. I have heard of at least 3 differnet ways they where thinking of implementing it.

b) There is most definently a list

c) See A
D) See A


----------



## crockett

O.k. Last post. This "I never watch live TV thing has been around since TiVos first came out" and frankly it's bunk. You may be the exception but everyone knows when people make this statement it's highly likely they are exaggerating.

How do you find new programs? Do you record every single TV series that sounds interesting on the "new fall lineup"? Do you go through everyone one of your 100+ channels on s weekly basis to see what new programs they have added and record all that seem interesting so you can review them commercial free so you can decide if you want to set them up on a series link.

No of course you don't and no else does it this way either. We all watch some amount of live TV and from that we build and constantly modify edit our "Lists".

In fact, TiVo tried to create box a that would allow you to never watch live TV through the use of the thumbs up and thumbs down button and schedule recordings for you based on your likes and dislikes. Future DVRs didn't steal this idea simply because companies realized that the overwhelming number of people didn't use this feature and still watch some percentage of live T.V. The fact that there is no "Where is my Thumbs up/Thumbs down" posts is proof that this missing feature simply isn't missed by most.

On the other hand, a twelve page thread on missing live dual buffers...might indicate something.


----------



## tiger2005

bonscott87 said:


> And come on guys, there is no need to keep bumping this just for the sake of bumping to keep it on DirecTv's radar. It's obviously near the top of their list after they get the box more stable and OTA working. Those are certainly much more important then dual buffers at this point I think you all should agree.
> 
> And just for disclosure I've had various DirecTivo's for 5 years now and I don't miss dual buffers, even during Sunday Ticket. I just use the mini-guide (blue button) to quickly move between games or use the red button to bring up the ring of scores and flip around that way. I can always record one game and use the other tuner to flip around amoung the other games. But that's just me.


What inside knowledge do you have that this is "obviously on DirecTV's radar"? DirecTV didn't include dual buffers on the R15, so IMHO the only way to ensure they add this feature to the HR20 is to ram it down their throats until they feel like they HAVE to add this feature in order to bring more people to the HR20.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> a) Dual Buffers is still being discussed... as far as I know, they haven't decided one way or the other. I have heard of at least 3 differnet ways they where thinking of implementing it.
> 
> b) There is most definently a list
> 
> c) See A
> D) See A


With all due respect Earl, I think skepticism is well-deserved at this point.


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## mtnagel

bonscott87 said:


> There ya go. I don't watch Live TV. Almost never since I got my first stand alone Tivo 6 years ago. Only time I watch live is during Sunday Ticket. The DVR to me is so that I'm *not* watching live TV.
> Just record your program in the first place and you're not watching any commercials. Ever.


Thanks for saving me the typing. Your reponse was exactly what I was going to say. And even during ST, I still set up the 2 games I watch to record. Just the way I've always done it. Not saying you're watching tv "wrong" and I'm watching it "right". Just there are different ways of doing it, so for me dual buffers aren't necessary. On the tivo, they just saved me a few clicks when I go between two recordings that were in progress. But for you, I guess they are necessary to way you're used to watching tv.

I remember when I was thinking about getting the HR20 and I asked my wife if she ever uses the down arrow to go between two programs and she had no idea what I was talking about. I bet many others are ignorant to this "feature".


----------



## mtnagel

crockett said:


> O.k. Last post. This "I never watch live TV thing has been around since TiVos first came out" and frankly it's bunk. You may be the exception but everyone knows when people make this statement it's highly likely they are exaggerating.
> 
> How do you find new programs? Do you record every single TV series that sounds interesting on the "new fall lineup"? Do you go through everyone one of your 100+ channels on s weekly basis to see what new programs they have added and record all that seem interesting so you can review them commercial free so you can decide if you want to set them up on a series link.
> 
> No of course you don't and no else does it this way either. We all watch some amount of live TV and from that we build and constantly modify edit our "Lists".
> 
> In fact, TiVo tried to create box a that would allow you to never watch live TV through the use of the thumbs up and thumbs down button and schedule recordings for you based on your likes and dislikes. Future DVRs didn't steal this idea simply because companies realized that the overwhelming number people didn't use this feature and still watch some percentage of live T.V. The fact that there is no "Where is my Thumbs up Thumbs down" posts is proof that this missing feature simply isn't missed by most.
> 
> On the other hand, a twelve page live dual buffer theard...might indicate something.


No seriously. You can believe it or not, but the only time live tv might be on in our house is if I'm working on something on my laptop and not really paying attention to what's on tv, but even then I may just put on a recording of 20/20 or Dateline or something like that where I record it, but may not really be interested in what it's about. The funny thing is I will still FF through the commercials. And then go back to working on my laptop. Maybe I'm weird.

About the new fall lineup, I read the reviews online and then set up a seasons pass (sorry Series link) for them or maybe just set up the pilot to record and then if I like it, I'll set up a seasons pass. As for the other channels, I already record enough stuff (I think there is over 100 items in my to do list and I think 40+ series links) that I don't need to watch anything else besides recordings. I do have 3 free months of Showtime/Starz (thank you crappy installer), so I will go through the guide maybe a couple times a week and see what's coming up and record the movies that sound interesting. So I don't even watch movies live despite not having commericals. I guess for me it's all about watching what I want when I want.

As I said, believe it or not, but without a doubt, 99% of the time, I don't watch live tv. Yes, there are people out there that don't watch tv like you do.

Oh, and one of the first things I did when I got my Directivo, besides turning off the beep/boop was to turn off Suggestions. My parents had a directivo before me, so I knew all about it's features.


----------



## bonscott87

crockett said:


> O.k. Last post. This "I never watch live TV thing has been around since TiVos first came out" and frankly it's bunk. You may be the exception but everyone knows when people make this statement it's highly likely they are exaggerating.
> 
> How do you find new programs? Do you record every single TV series that sounds interesting on the "new fall lineup"? Do you go through everyone one of your 100+ channels on s weekly basis to see what new programs they have added and record all that seem interesting so you can review them commercial free so you can decide if you want to set them up on a series link.
> 
> No of course you don't and no else does it this way either. We all watch some amount of live TV and from that we build and constantly modify edit our "Lists".


Ummmm, yea, I don't watch live TV. I record *everything*. How do I find new programs to watch? Well, Zap2It for one. Message forums for another. Podcasts is were I find most new programs to search on and record an episode to try it out. Every couple weeks I'll pull up HBO in the guide and record what movies I'm interested in. My wife and I really don't watch that much TV at all actually. We watch Red Wings hockey at near live, usually start 45 minutes behind live so that we don't see any commercials. We'll usually watch all our programs 2-3 nights a week and the rest of the week the TV isn't even on unless there is a hockey game. We have other things we like to do that doesn't involve TV. And thus why we have 3 DVR's in the house. We watch our programs when we have the time. It's the whole point of the DVR. As the Tivo catchline is, "watch TV your way".

I'm certainly not saying that watching live TV is bad or anything but you're missing part of the point of a DVR if you're always watching live. Personally I have better things to do then channel surf for hours on end every night.


----------



## mikewolf13

crockett said:


> How do you find new programs? Do you record every single TV series that sounds interesting on the "new fall lineup"? Do you go through everyone one of your 100+ channels on s weekly basis to see what new programs they have added and record all that seem interesting so you can review them commercial free so you can decide if you want to set them up on a series link.


In a word: yes.

I record shows I MIGHT be interested in. I record shows I heard of by word-of-mouth and if I get around to it watch it recorded. I only watch Sports and some news live.

I use wishlists to find programming on topics I might be interested in.

I do not watch any episodic television live. I occasionally surf if I am just looking for something to pass a few minutes (or background noise) and am not in mood to sit and watch a whole program

I do not know if I am the norm or not.

I love dual buffers on TIVO. it probably would not be a dealbreaker if the HR20 or R15 actaully worked, but i would miss it.

I think the lack of dual buffers and it's populatiry (deal breaker or not) however, is indicative of how poorly designed the products were.


----------



## mtnagel

Wow. Sorry crockett, but that's 3 people in a row that do not watch any live tv.


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## mikewolf13

bonscott87 said:


> I'm certainly not saying that watching live TV is bad or anything but you're missing part of the point of a DVR if you're always watching live. Personally I have better things to do then channel surf for hours on end every night.


I firmly believe I watch less TV now, as I used to watch8-11 every night I was home,just to ensure I didn't miss anything.... and If nothing was on, I watched anyway because that is what I did....

Now I watch what I like and move on...

THE WORST thing about always watching recorded TV is that when I am in a hotel I always want to rewind or pause and it drives me nuts not being able to....

But if none of us watch Live.....why do we need dual buffers??????

Other than Sports of course ...as many of us have said.


----------



## sorahl

Mike,
that's a good point. and if you are lucky enough to be unafflicted with the sports virus you are golden! 

sorahl


----------



## Earl Bonovich

crockett said:


> How do you find new programs? Do you record every single TV series that sounds interesting on the "new fall lineup"? Do you go through everyone one of your 100+ channels on s weekly basis to see what new programs they have added and record all that seem interesting so you can review them commercial free so you can decide if you want to set them up on a series link.


Actually...

Yes, that is exactly what I do (the first part at least).
I do follow a lot of the "announcements" on the new shows.
I found my self this year recording the "fall line up shows"... to get an idea of them.

And yes... I do in fact setup Series Links/Season passes for the shows that have topics that intrest me.

Do I set them for all... nah.

But then again, I do follow forums boards, wife gets entertainment magazine, and yes.... this is one of the reasons WHY I like SLIP instead of SKIP... so I do catch "frames" of commercials and if something intrests me... I check it out.

I would say I watch MORE now in LESS time.... I watch more shows... I am more caught up on those series...
But I watch it later in the night... instead of having to be at the TV from 7 till 10 M-F and hope I have nothing else to do.


----------



## tiger2005

mtnagel said:


> Wow. Sorry crockett, but that's 3 people in a row that do not watch any live tv.


Sorry, but I fall into Crockett's category in that I watch a ton of live TV and can't stand that I don't have the ability to watch both tuners at the same time. I think a lot of other people do as well as evidenced by the poll indicating that 516 people out of 705 think that Dual Buffers are _*a must have*_.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, but I fall into Crockett's category in that I watch a ton of live TV and can't stand that I don't have the ability to watch both tuners at the same time. I think a lot of other people do as well as evidenced by the poll indicating that 516 people out of 705 think that Dual Buffers are _*a must have*_.


I bet if we changed that poll to filter between dual buffering, non-sports.
and Dual buffering sports... (even if it is just 1 sporting event).

That poll would look very different.


----------



## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> I bet if we changed that poll to filter between dual buffering, non-sports.
> and Dual buffering sports... (even if it is just 1 sporting event).
> 
> That poll would look very different.


Maybe, but I too use dual buffers to watch live tv for non sporting events. I think that the dual buffer feature is a very adaptable function for multiple viewing styles. When using my TiVO for when watching live TV I am an active user of tuner swapping. I would guess that my live TV watching is ~50/50 vs recorded content.


----------



## Marty B

I got hosed pretty good last night because of the lack of dual buffers.

The wife and I are watching The Amazing Race. We usually dont start watching a show until its about 20 mins into it. Well because of a football game, The Amazing race was delayed. So what was recorded in the Race spot was 30 mins of 60 minutes. I fast forward through it and start watching my show. Then I run to the end of the show. It stopped recording right when it was supposed to but since the Amazing race was delayed, there was still 25 mins left. So I think, Its cool, I will just rewind live TV and get the end. Guess what. Its on the other tuner. So I switch to the tuner that the Amazing race was on, and now its over, and I have no buffer. CRAP. So the wife gets TOTALY po'd. And AGAIN I try to defend the HR20. After trying to explain why we cant watch the end, we go up to our bedroom and watch it on our old SAT T60 Tivo. Sure enough, its still in the buffer.

I am trying SO HARD to like this HR20. DirecTV is not making it easy. So far the ony advantage it has over my Tivo is HD. If I had it to do over, I would wait a year to buy an HR20.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> I bet if we changed that poll to filter between dual buffering, non-sports.
> and Dual buffering sports... (even if it is just 1 sporting event).
> 
> That poll would look very different.


I'm sorry, but I really don't see the difference. If you use Dual Buffers for live TV or sports, where is the difference? I use dual buffers for both sports and non-sports ALL the time. If DirecTV won't add Dual Buffers because they believe only a small % of people use them for sports then they are doing a disservice to their customers for indicating they are the leader in providing sports programming. If they are a leader in this area then they should be doing everything in their power to enhance that viewing experience, not taking away from it.

Also, if the poll read 'dual buffers, a must-have for sports' and 'dual buffers, a must-have for live TV', the total vote would still be 516 indicating that dual buffers are a must have.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't see the difference. If you use Dual Buffers for live TV or sports, where is the difference? I use dual buffers for both sports and non-sports ALL the time. If DirecTV won't add Dual Buffers because they believe only a small % of people use them for sports then they are doing a disservice to their customers for indicating they are the leader in providing sports programming. If they are a leader in this area then they should be doing everything in their power to enhance that viewing experience, not taking away from it.
> 
> Also, if the poll read 'dual buffers, a must-have for sports' and 'dual buffers, a must-have for live TV', the total vote would still be 516 indicating that dual buffers are a must have.


The difference... is that live sporting events, in today's day of information movement.... You can't even go to Yahoo's front page, with sports scores up there.... turning on a radio, or all sorts of channels that have sports tickers.... pagers/phone updates on scoring trends. So it is VERY difficult to RECORD a sporting event, and then watch it later... without knowing what happened...

TV Shows.... if you are going to watch it "live"... then what is the point of having a DVR?

But regardless... dual buffers are important to a large population.
Just changes the definition of how "critical" it is to each user, depending on their usage.


----------



## perilous

Earl Bonovich said:


> The difference... is that live sporting events, in today's day of information movement.... You can't even go to Yahoo's front page, with sports scores up there.... turning on a radio, or all sorts of channels that have sports tickers.... pagers/phone updates on scoring trends. So it is VERY difficult to RECORD a sporting event, and then watch it later... without knowing what happened...
> 
> TV Shows.... if you are going to watch it "live"... then what is the point of having a DVR?
> 
> But regardless... dual buffers are important to a large population.
> Just changes the definition of how "critical" it is to each user, depending on their usage.


Earl -- more info for those who do not "understand" those of us who LOVE dual buffers! Whether its Sunday Ticket or NHL Center Ice, there are more than 2 games of interest MANY times. I love starting with 2 games of interest but an hour or 2 in, other games may look more interesting and I switch to them as a "Dual Buffer Pro"!!! The most fun is right at 4PM on Sunday and watching the end of the 2 best games -- my only regret is that there aren't MORE live buffers at this critical time!! The real trick is to keep going back and forth BEFORE the other tuner gives away an updated score on the tuner I paused!! Its actually lots of fun!! If I commit to 2 "recordings", I lose this ability.....


----------



## burnside

My wife just loved the dual buffers on our tivo. She watches 0% sports. She just finds herself watching one show live, then wanting to see what else is on the other tuner. Almost all the time, something catches her eye on the other tuner that she either wants to watch or just peek at for a while. It happened so many times. Now she's just stuck on one tuner.


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## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> The difference... is that live sporting events, in today's day of information movement.... You can't even go to Yahoo's front page, with sports scores up there.... turning on a radio, or all sorts of channels that have sports tickers.... pagers/phone updates on scoring trends. So it is VERY difficult to RECORD a sporting event, and then watch it later... without knowing what happened...
> 
> TV Shows.... if you are going to watch it "live"... then what is the point of having a DVR?
> 
> But regardless... dual buffers are important to a large population.
> Just changes the definition of how "critical" it is to each user, depending on their usage.


1. I typically don't find out what has happened in sporting events I have on two buffers because I'm already busy watching those events. Even if I do happen to catch the scores, I may want to go back and see the actual event to see how those scores changed, big plays, etc.

2. That is the beautiful thing about DVR's. They allow you so many different ways to watch TV. Just because I watch "live" TV doesn't mean I don't want to see a replay of a funny line, exciting scene, etc. Isn't one of the main points all companies trumpet about having a DVR the ability to pause it while watching live TV for phone call, doorbell, etc.? I don't just use dual buffers for sports and shows, but for news, movies, etc. Actually, I use dual buffers more for watching multiple movies and news programs than sports or TV shows.

3. I think the poll addresses the criticality issue by indicating its 'A Must Have' or 'Like the option but, Ok if it's not there.'

Again, this all goes back to the point that DVR's allow different people to use them differently. Unfortunately the biggest issue with the lack of dual buffers is that it severely restricts those many different ways that people can watch programming.


----------



## mtnagel

tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, but I fall into Crockett's category in that I watch a ton of live TV and can't stand that I don't have the ability to watch both tuners at the same time. I think a lot of other people do as well as evidenced by the poll indicating that 516 people out of 705 think that Dual Buffers are _*a must have*_.


I never said that no one watched tv like crockett, but he did say that no one never watches live tv and in addition to the 3 that posted in a row that says they never watch live tv, now Earl is also saying it too.


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## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> TV Shows.... if you are going to watch it "live"... then what is the point of having a DVR?


It has just become a way of watching TV. I do miss not being able to swap between the tuners when just watching news. For example, I like watching live news, but when the commercials come on often switch to a tuner and surf or put on Comedy Central, then I will go back to the news, and I don't miss content on either side. Much in the same way I do with a football game.


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## tiger2005

mtnagel said:


> I never said that no one watched tv like crockett, but he did say that no one never watches live tv and in addition to the 3 that posted in a row that says they never watch live tv, now Earl is also saying it too.


That makes 4! Anyone else?

To be serious, that just goes back to my last post. Dual buffers give you the ability to watch TV in many different ways.


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## bidger

I use dual buffers primarily for Sports, NFL Sunday Ticket to be specific, and that's one of the reasons I kept the HR10 active. When I do watch Live TV on the HD DVRs it's usually HDNet, HDNet Movies, or Discovery-HD channels and the great thing about those channels are the commercials are few and far between so I don't feel the need to drift in and out.

Last night though I did try to watch "Sleepy Hollow" on TNT-HD with CC enabled while I simultaneously watching eps I recorded of the "A Haunting" series on the SD Discovery Channel. Yeah, I'm heavy into Halloween. 

Let me just say this: TNT-HD piles on the commercials to a ridiculous amount. I've never watched their channel live before and never will again. But, aside from that, I watched it on the HR10 so I could switch over to "Pit & Pendulum" and "Rosemary's Baby" on HDNM on the other tuner during TNT's commercials. I couldn't have done that with the HR20.

Long story short, I don't know how D* felt that dual buffers wasn't a valued feature for the majority of their DVR users.


----------



## sshams95

I think it's obvious that many of us want the live buffers and for a variety of reasons. I'm sure there are workarounds and until dual live buffers become part of the HR20, I will stick with my HR10 as long as I can. I started out years ago with the Ultimate TV receiver and I chose this over the original DTivo unit simply because it had PIP. I had the ability to watch 2 games at once, or watch a game in the corner while watching the news, Tv show, etc. I gave this up to get the HD with TIVO...I wasn't happy, but I gave it a shot. The Dual Live buffers almost made up for losing PIP (still can't get why if we have two live buffers, why can't we have two output buffers) and while not the same as PIP, I still have the ability to follow two games, 1 game/1 show or news. And now the HR20 can't even do this.

To me, a product should build off the previous product version. You should not have to sacrifice previous product features for the sake of other features. My guess is that the technical/engineering people at DTV were pushed so hard to come out with the HR20 due to Wall Street pressure, that we now have a very marginal product. And I'm sure DTV is spending more $$$ fixing all these bugs and dealing with all of the complaints I see on these boards....they would've been better off waiting a little more time and put out a much more complete and workable product.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Wolffpack

sshams95 said:


> I'm sure there are workarounds and until dual live buffers become part of the HR20, I will stick with my HR10 as long as I can.


Not picking on you sshams95. But have any of you read Earls multiple posts that Dual Live buffers are only still being discussed at DTV? This isn't a sure thing. They do not yet know how or if they can/will implement this.


----------



## NFLnut

Why does it even matter? The fact is, MOST people DO want the live dual buffers! It isn't all that difficult to implement! It shouldn't really take any additional resources from the DVR to do so.

The fact is, sports viewers have stated that dual buffers is almost without exception, a must-have. Add to that, for non-sports, like if you just want to check up on the news in the early evening without setting up a recording on two programs, you can jump between the two during commercials, which is the whole purpose of a DVR, or TiVo, or whatever you're using!


----------



## carl6

Earl Bonovich said:


> a) Dual Buffers is still being discussed... as far as I know, they haven't decided one way or the other. I have heard of at least 3 differnet ways they where thinking of implementing it.


Hmmmm. It seems to me that awhile back you said they were definately going to put dual buffers in the HR20, but that it was still up in the air regarding the R15. Now it sounds like it is up in the air for both units. Is this a step backwards?

Carl


----------



## 66stang351

carl6 said:


> Hmmmm. It seems to me that awhile back you said they were definately going to put dual buffers in the HR20, but that it was still up in the air regarding the R15. Now it sounds like it is up in the air for both units. Is this a step backwards?
> 
> Carl


No, He never said definately for the HR-20. He said that they were seriously revisiting the idea of putting dual buffers in the HR-20.


----------



## sshams95

Wolffpack said:


> Not picking on you sshams95. But have any of you read Earls multiple posts that Dual Live buffers are only still being discussed at DTV? This isn't a sure thing. They do not yet know how or if they can/will implement this.


Being discussed and being implemented are two different things. As soon as I see the HR20 has the dual buffers and OTA enabled (which we know will happen), I'll be more than happy to switch to the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

carl6 said:


> Hmmmm. It seems to me that awhile back you said they were definately going to put dual buffers in the HR20, but that it was still up in the air regarding the R15. Now it sounds like it is up in the air for both units. Is this a step backwards?
> 
> Carl


If I ever said definately, my apologizes... I think the highest I got was 51/49

On the R15, there was a time it was "definative", but that was way back in the beginning before I built some of the DirecTV relationships that I have now.

Right now, as far as I know.. it is still in the discussion phase.


----------



## Wolffpack

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now, as far as I know.. it is still in the discussion phase.


ie....don't bet the farm. :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Wolffpack said:


> ie....don't bet the farm. :lol:


I only bet on sure deals...


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## PoitNarf

Earl Bonovich said:


> I only bet on sure deals...


Easy to do when you're an inside trader. Don't make me sick the SEC on you


----------



## Earl Bonovich

PoitNarf said:


> Easy to do when you're an inside trader. Don't make me sick the SEC on you


 I never play with stocks.....
Just cans/cases of Coke


----------



## crockett

I don't know if others have seen the excellent post on the HR20 where you can take a survey that sums up what all of us think are the most important improvements that can be made to the HR20. Wether it be a bug fix or a new feature. 

The highest ranked request (318 people surveyed last time I checked) was dual buffers. It ranks even higher than the request to "not press the guide button twice" to get to the guide. Isn't that amazing? And once TiVos become obsolete, don't you feel the demand will be even more so. 

Now we have an insider telling us that the feature isn't even on their list but is being "considered" for their list.

Doesn't this speak volumes about how they feel about their customers?


----------



## jclark

crockett said:


> Doesn't this speak volumes about how they feel about their customers?


You beat me to the punch. I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## Que

Bump. Just for all the new people here.


----------



## Wolffpack

Haven't you bumped this thread 2-3 times since the last real post with no activity? I guess if this issue needs to continue being bumped then the mods should make it a sticky.


----------



## tiger2005

Wolffpack said:


> Haven't you bumped this thread 2-3 times since the last real post with no activity? I guess if this issue needs to continue being bumped then the mods should make it a sticky.


Unfortunately I don't think the mods think this issue warrants a sticky designation. I'm not sure why since a lot of new users to the forum seem to ask questions about the dual buffers issue.


----------



## mikewolf13

tiger2005 said:


> Unfortunately I don't think the mods think this issue warrants a sticky designation. I'm not sure why since a lot of new users to the forum seem to ask questions about the dual buffers issue.


I think the matter is addressed int he FAQ, so no need for sticky.

I think continued bumping gives the mistaken impression that this the implementation is imminent.

The reality is- it is not even a sure thing.

It's not even a likely thing.


----------



## Wolffpack

tiger2005 said:


> Unfortunately I don't think the mods think this issue warrants a sticky designation. I'm not sure why since a lot of new users to the forum seem to ask questions about the dual buffers issue.


As mikewolf mentioned the FAQ should be the place any new user starts. Otherwise we'd need to keep bumping threads for dual buffers, OTA tuners, SL limits, HDMI problems......and so on.

OTA tuners are coming. A decision on dual buffers hasn't been made.

This thread is up to 14 pages now. I doubt new users read through this before posting a question.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Unfortunately I don't think the mods think this issue warrants a sticky designation. I'm not sure why since a lot of new users to the forum seem to ask questions about the dual buffers issue.


It has nothing to do with it "warranting" a sticky designation.
We had it as a sticky for a while.

But we have gotten a lot of feedback that there are too many stickies...
So we had to let some of them go.


----------



## jheda

Earl Bonovich said:


> It has nothing to do with it "warranting" a sticky designation.
> We had it as a sticky for a while.
> 
> But we have gotten a lot of feedback that there are too many stickies...
> So we had to let some of them go.


OK, then let me say this again:

I bought the HR20 on the wrong assumption it would have dual buffers, after my prior D*tivo box. IN fact I bought the kds60a2000 and not the kxbr as i didnt feel i needed PIP. i LOVE WATCHING 2 SHOWS AT ONE TIME FLIPPING BACK AND FORTH WHENEVER COMMERCIALS ARISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BRING BACK DUAL BUFFERS!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> OK, then let me say this again:
> 
> I bought the HR20 on the wrong assumption it would have dual buffers, after my prior D*tivo box. IN fact I bought the kds60a2000 and not the kxbr as i didnt feel i needed PIP. i LOVE WATCHING 2 SHOWS AT ONE TIME FLIPPING BACK AND FORTH WHENEVER COMMERCIALS ARISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> BRING BACK DUAL BUFFERS!!!!!!!!!!


And that had to do with the discussion on it being a sticky, how?

And it would be more to the point... "Introduce Dual Buffers to the DVR+ series of DVRs"... they where never TiVos, and they never had Dual Buffers.


----------



## jheda

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that had to do with the discussion on it being a sticky, how?
> 
> And it would be more to the point... "Introduce Dual Buffers to the DVR+ series of DVRs"... they where never TiVos, and they never had Dual Buffers.


sorry earl, i thought this thread was discussing dual buffer desires, and that the desire for them was waning.

sorry again earl, i called the r10, my predeccessor to the HR20 a D*tivo box, thats what i understood it to be.

Correct me then if the r1o never had dual buffers? why then could i pause 2 shows on the r10 and not on my Hr20.

pls educate this simpleton....


----------



## jheda

boy you lose one game and you get a little testy  ... what will u be like if my Jints win?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> sorry earl, i thought this thread was discussing dual buffer desires, and that the desire for them was waning.
> 
> sorry again earl, i called the r10, my predeccessor to the HR20 a D*tivo box, thats what i understood it to be.
> 
> Correct me then if the r1o never had dual buffers? why then could i pause 2 shows on the r10 and not on my Hr20.
> 
> pls educate this simpleton....


One... I was curious on why you quoted my text, discussing why the thread wasn't stickied.

Two... This unit (the HR20) never had dual buffers... nor did the SD version that is now a year old the R15. There are a several features that where on the DTiVo based units that are not on the DVR+ series, same as there are a lot of features on the DVR+ series that are not on the DTivo series. (same thing comparing UTV and DVR+)

So that is why that I said they need to INTRODUCE dual buffers to the DVR+ series, not bring them back... as they where never there, never said they where going to be there, and the "precedessor" to the HD-DVR+ is the SD-DVR+ and it doesn't have them either.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> boy you lose one game and you get a little testy  ... what will u be like if my Jints win?


 has nothing to do with the Bears... Heck they win 3 more games this year, they are in the playoffs... and in the NFL... that is all that matters.


----------



## jheda

got it.......thanks...........the quote was user misuse .... but i still long for dual buffers ....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> got it.......thanks...........the quote was user misuse .... but i still long for dual buffers ....


No problem... and it was my mis use, to not put the  or  after my line about Introducing the Dual Buffers.


----------



## pattcap

Earl Bonovich said:


> So that is why that I said they need to INTRODUCE dual buffers to the DVR+ series, not bring them back... as they where never there, never said they where going to be there, and the "precedessor" to the HD-DVR+ is the SD-DVR+ and it doesn't have them either.


Very interesting distinction here. 
While we know it is capable of it, it might boil down to whether the programmers are capable of an elegant dual buffer solution.

As it stands, there are a lot of things that are kind of hacked in there. It would be nice to have more elegant solutions for things like; jump to tick, jump to beginning, jump to end, slow motion. For me, 3 seconds is an eternity...

Maybe once they get the "glitches" worked out, they will get more serious regarding a real Dual Buffer solution. My guess, since a couple of cable companies have partnered with Tivo, D* might warm up to it a bit more if it becomes an offered "feature/benefit" from the cable companies, that D* isn't offering. Nothing like competition to light a fire under someone's behind.

I really miss Dual Buffers a lot. The end result = I am not watching as much pointless TV. If I have reached a point where I want to switch, I just turn it off.

Thanks for the work Earl
Pattcap


----------



## joejhawk

jheda said:


> OK, then let me say this again:
> 
> I bought the HR20 on the wrong assumption it would have dual buffers, after my prior D*tivo box. IN fact I bought the kds60a2000 and not the kxbr as i didnt feel i needed PIP. i LOVE WATCHING 2 SHOWS AT ONE TIME FLIPPING BACK AND FORTH WHENEVER COMMERCIALS ARISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> BRING BACK DUAL BUFFERS!!!!!!!!!!


Since this thread is about bringing back (or introducing) the dual buffers and D* supposedly reads this...I would like to request a dual buffer/PIP solution so you can see both tuners and if you notice something on the other tuner you can simply swap, rewind and see it.

For instance if you were wasting your time watching the Bucs game and on the PIP you noticed that the Skins were kicking a winning field goal and 30 seconds before the Cowboys were kicking the winning field goal you could swap, rewind and see how they got to that point. Without the PIP you may not have noticed it.

My cable HD DVR does this and it is a VERY nice feature.


----------



## Wolffpack

pattcap said:


> I really miss Dual Buffers a lot. The end result = I am not watching as much pointless TV. If I have reached a point where I want to switch, I just turn it off.


You don't have to. Do what many of us are doing, stick with an SD or HD Tivo unit. They're still available on eBay and in fact I just saw an HR10 on the floor at my local CC for $299.


----------



## Gmaxx

Since this thread is still alive I'm going to throw out my opinion too. We NEED dual buffers. I did not think that I would miss the dual buffer feature all that much when switching from my r10 to the hr20 but I really do. Every Sunday I use the dual buffers on a pair of football games so when one game goes to commercials I pause, switch tuners, watch other game, switch back to preferred game, unpause, skip commercials = Me very happy  Now that I don't have it and knowing that it could be introduced to the hr20, I want it back!


----------



## pattcap

Wolffpack said:


> You don't have to. Do what many of us are doing, stick with an SD or HD Tivo unit. They're still available on eBay and in fact I just saw an HR10 on the floor at my local CC for $299.


Better yet,

Maybe I will lower my level of service from D* since I am not watching as Much or as many TV channels anymore.....

Yo D*, you listening.....Dual Buffers may end up relevant to the old pocket book, but then again, I am just one customer.....

Thanks for listening
Pattcap


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pattcap said:


> Better yet,
> 
> Maybe I will lower my level of service from D* since I am not watching as Much or as many TV channels anymore.....
> 
> Yo D*, you listening.....Dual Buffers may end up relevant to the old pocket book, but then again, I am just one customer.....
> 
> Thanks for listening
> Pattcap


Heck if that was their worry... they would have kicked me out a long time ago... Since getting my first TiVo unit, I have stripped my package of all the premium channels, as there plenty on all the other channels that are part of the base package.


----------



## mtnagel

Gmaxx said:


> Since this thread is still alive I'm going to throw out my opinion too. We NEED dual buffers. I did not think that I would miss the dual buffer feature all that much when switching from my r10 to the hr20 but I really do. Every Sunday I use the dual buffers on a pair of football games so when one game goes to commercials I pause, switch tuners, watch other game, switch back to preferred game, unpause, skip commercials = Me very happy  Now that I don't have it and knowing that it could be introduced to the hr20, I want it back!


I've probably said it before in this thread, but if you are only concerned with two games, then just record both and you can switch back and forth. I do it every Sunday with the HR20.


----------



## Wolffpack

mtnagel said:


> I've probably said it before in this thread, but if you are only concerned with two games, then just record both and you can switch back and forth. I do it every Sunday with the HR20.


The point I think folks have made is that we don't want to record just two games. Gmaxx stated that he likes to watch a pair of games, just as I do. That pair changes from play to play and quarter to quarter. Typically one game is the main game I watch, then tuner two flips all over the place.


----------



## ZDawg

I am a total flipper. Pause, flip watch. pause, flip watch... Someone posted a nice workaround by recording both. I'd also like a dual tuner so I can split screen two shows, but that's just me.

Z


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Wolffpack said:


> The point I think folks have made is that we don't want to record just two games. Gmaxx stated that he likes to watch a pair of games, just as I do. That pair changes from play to play and quarter to quarter. Typically one game is the main game I watch, then tuner two flips all over the place.


Sounds like you need 2 or 3 more tv's in your living room.


----------



## Wolffpack

theratpatrol said:


> Sounds like you need 2 or 3 more tv's in your living room.


Not at all. I've got one HR10 with 2 SAT connections and one SD-DVR40 with 1 SAT connection. Two Tivos to one TV work fantastic. Well that and I can always record to my other Tivos and MRV them to one of my other units.


----------



## Que

Wow... people ask why I still bump this. I just came back to work and there is 2 more pages on here. There is still something to talk about. Also like someone said for all the new people that post about the same question.

Not all "new" people read sticky or even FAQ. So when it hits the 3rd or 4th page I'm going to bump until the mod tells me not too.

[edit] Plus 7 votes added.


----------



## Wolffpack

Bump all you want, I'll unsubscribe this thread.

See, when I get an email that someone has posted to this thread I'm very interested in that maybe Earl has posted something about that status. Yet I keep returning only to find out it was a bump. Weak in m mind.


----------



## mtnagel

Wolffpack said:


> The point I think folks have made is that we don't want to record just two games. Gmaxx stated that he likes to watch a pair of games, just as I do. That pair changes from play to play and quarter to quarter. Typically one game is the main game I watch, then tuner two flips all over the place.


I get it. Did you read where I said, 'only concerned with two games?" I didn't say 10 games but only care about 2 at the moment. I watch exactly 2 games every week. For me the HR20 works fine for switching back and forth as it would for anyone concerned with *exactly 2 games*.

I couldn't care less about dual buffers.


----------



## mtnagel

Wolffpack said:


> Bump all you want, I'll unsubscribe this thread.
> 
> See, when I get an email that someone has posted to this thread I'm very interested in that maybe Earl has posted something about that status. Yet I keep returning only to find out it was a bump. Weak in m mind.


Do you realize that by replying, you are doing the exact same thing?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Wolffpack said:


> Not at all. I've got one HR10 with 2 SAT connections and one SD-DVR40 with 1 SAT connection. Two Tivos to one TV work fantastic. Well that and I can always record to my other Tivos and MRV them to one of my other units.


Well I was talking about when you watch football, so you can watch more then one game at a time, but I was only joking around.


----------



## crockett

I would just like to add that I that I just checked this great thread again:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=68183

And after over 450 surveys dual live buffers is still the most number one requested feature even over 30 skip and not requiring you to press guide twice to bring up the guide. In fact it is leading by a pretty fair margin.

DirecTV are you listening? Do you care about us? To be loved you have to also love. Bring forth dual live buffers and be a hit with your customers. It's cool to be popular .


----------



## Que

mtnagel said:


> Do you realize that by replying, you are doing the exact same thing?


Plus he is on here *everyday.* If it was me I would not even need to turn that on, If I came by here daily. That's just me.


----------



## Doug Brott

crockett said:


> DirecTV are you listening? Do you care about us? To be loved you have to also love. Bring forth dual live buffers and be a hit with your customers. It's cool to be popular .


Ditto.


----------



## carl6

With all due respect, new people are going to have this thread bold - unread on their first visit anyway. I'm not sure bumping is accomplishing anything and I personally don't like going back into this thread just to see "bump" on a rather regular basis. Once in a rare while, okay. Every few days, a bit too much IMHO.

Carl


----------



## tiger2005

WANDERER said:


> Currently, technically a dual buffer does not exist.
> However, for all practical purposes something better exists.
> 
> *Try this once! It works great!!!*
> 
> 1.) *Tune to channel A * (live buffer of 90 min)
> 
> 2.)* Use quick guide to record desired channel B * (unlimited buffer)
> 
> 3.) *Start playback of channel B recording*
> 
> 4.)* Press prev. button *- will autopause and take you *INSTANTLY* back to live tv channel A
> 
> 5.) Press prev. button again and you will go back to recording *INSTANTLY* (channel B will auto play from where you had left off)
> 
> You can toggle the prev. button to repeat the tuner switch endlessly.





Que said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65736
> 
> Until we get true live dual buffers.


Not sure if anyone has had this same issue, but this workaround will not work in certain circumstances. As an example, last night I was watching HDNet and the Islanders/Flyers game. The Louisville/Rutgers game had just come on ESPNHD so I recorded the HDNet channel and moved over to ESPNHD to record that channel, HOWEVER I was not able to do so because the girlfriend has Grey's Anatomy scheduled to record at 9pm. So, I could either deal without having both games buffered until 9pm or cancel the Grey's Anatomy recording and TRY to remember to schedule it closer to 9pm.   Somehow I don't think I would have lived through today if I had cancelled the recording and not remembered to re-schedule it. This is just another example of why this workaround is not completely feasible and a need does exist for actual dual live buffers.


----------



## crockett

I agree as well. There other reasons why this work around is as eloquent as true dual live buffering as seen on TiVo and other DVRs.


----------



## Que

carl6 said:


> With all due respect, new people are going to have this thread bold - unread on their first visit anyway. I'm not sure bumping is accomplishing anything and I personally don't like going back into this thread just to see "bump" on a rather regular basis. Once in a rare while, okay. Every few days, a bit too much IMHO.
> 
> Carl


There are 75 pages in the forum. I just don't want this one to get lost. Most don't use the search or the FAQ. Like them to see this one and vote. Maybe even add a post. Take the HR20 Wish List Survey If you look back there are a few "Thanks for the bump" from a new poster. Also every bump you get more votes. There are 772 right now.



> Top 10
> 
> 1 4.470 Dual Live Buffers [drawnad]
> 2 4.112 A true 30 second skip instead of slip [joekun]
> 3 4.094 Guide button should bring up guide first and options second [joekun]
> 4 4.073 Enable Faster Fast Forward as shown in the owner's manual on page iv [Dusty, Radio Enginerd, tigerpaw78]
> 5 4.019 Fast Forward autocorrection [monty23, RMSko]
> 6 3.866 Apply Current Channels as a filter during Search By [joekun, gdiddy]
> 7 3.718 Multi-Room Viewing via the Ethernet Port [kilobravo]
> 8 3.708 Always return to most recently accessed position on My Playlist when using LIST [Leftcoastdave]
> 9 3.679 In all menus, the Left Arrow should function like the BACK button [Mark_M]
> 10 3.676 Enable consumer installable Hard Drive Expansion Device - Investor Day 2/22/06 Slide 41 [Gotchaa]


 When I bump it is already hits the 3rd or 4th page. I guess I can wait until it hits the 6-7th but, this is a *Must have!* for most. It is too important for new buyer's/owner's.


----------



## Que

tiger2005 said:


> 10-30-06, 02:42 PM
> Sorry, but I fall into Crockett's category in that I watch a ton of live TV and can't stand that I don't have the ability to watch both tuners at the same time. I think a lot of other people do as well as evidenced by the poll indicating that 516 people out of 705 think that Dual Buffers are _*a must have*_.


In 2 weeks time, 67 votes added. All unique IPs.



> A must have! 571 73.96%
> Don't really care about it. 51 6.61%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 150 19.43%


----------



## Jeremy W

Que said:


> It is too important for new buyer's/owner's.


If it was that important, it wouldn't need you to bump it. Sorry, I know it's your pet issue, but it's not like there are countless threads being created about the lack of dual buffers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

There is no harm in bumping this particular thread.


----------



## praneeth

Dual Buffers are definetely needed, but I have to say the pluses of the new unit far outweigh the negatives. I used to be a die hard HD Tivo fan but after using the new unit for a couple of weeks its really difficult to go back to the 30 second waits to get a single program recorded.
Hopefully dual buffers will be added but I have to say I think the box is still an upgrade for many reasons if not for performance alone.


----------



## zodiac

tiger2005 said:


> Not sure if anyone has had this same issue, but this workaround will not work in certain circumstances. As an example, last night I was watching HDNet and the Islanders/Flyers game. The Louisville/Rutgers game had just come on ESPNHD so I recorded the HDNet channel and moved over to ESPNHD to record that channel, HOWEVER I was not able to do so because the girlfriend has Grey's Anatomy scheduled to record at 9pm. So, I could either deal without having both games buffered until 9pm or cancel the Grey's Anatomy recording and TRY to remember to schedule it closer to 9pm.   Somehow I don't think I would have lived through today if I had cancelled the recording and not remembered to re-schedule it. This is just another example of why this workaround is not completely feasible and a need does exist for actual dual live buffers.


Same issue here. The workaround is a bandaid to a needed feature. No I don't want two units in the same room. Too confusing for the rest of the family or guests. This was a great feature and the reason I just signed up as a member! So I can vote for the dual buffers.


----------



## Doug Brott

zodiac said:


> Same issue here. The workaround is a bandaid to a needed feature. No I don't want two units in the same room. Too confusing for the rest of the family or guests. This was a great feature and the reason I just signed up as a member! So I can vote for the dual buffers.


Welcome to the Forums.

Please take the HR20 Wish List Survey to voice your opinion there as well.


----------



## bidger

Snork. That's for everyone.


----------



## crockett

I haven't visited this thread in awhile but would once again would like to express my requests for dual live buffers.

It will be interesting to see if they add any new features to the box. Once the list was finalized have they added any requested features on the wishlist? Especially the top 5?

I guess one could argue that 30 slip is now pretty darn fast, sure it's not 30 second skip but a big improvement.


----------



## Jeremy W

There are new features confirmed to be coming to the box. VOD is the first thing that comes to mind.


----------



## Doug Brott

Unfortunately, I did not record the Rank of an item when it was removed from the list. I could go back and determine the rank based on the data that I have, but I'm not going to do that. The following items WOULD BE in the top 5 of the Wish List today if they had not been removed from the list. In think the last one here was always in the HR20, so feel free to not count it.

- A true 30 second skip instead of slip
- Enable Faster Fast Forward as shown in the owner's manual on page iv
- Turn off "searching for satellite" message when watching a program from MyVOD
- Live buffer continues recording the last channel while watching a recorded show


----------



## Milominderbinder2

brott said:


> The following items WOULD BE in the top 5 of the Wish List today if they had not been removed from the list. I think the last one here was always in the HR20, so feel free to not count it.
> 
> - A true 30 second skip instead of slip *(Score: 3.98)*
> - Enable Faster Fast Forward as shown in the owner's manual on page iv *(Score: 4.16)*
> - Turn off "searching for satellite" message when watching a program from MyVOD *(Score: 3.89)*
> - Live buffer continues recording the last channel while watching a recorded show*(Score: 3.99)*


There have actually been 10 items from our Features Wishlist that the HR20 can now do.

There is another wishlist feature that was done in EF:
*Make the Replay Button consistently jump back 6 seconds per manual page iv (Score: 3.73)*

*There were also a number of popular feature wishlist items that we could already do!*
*The ability to start slow motion from a paused state *
---_This wishlist item scored a 3.03 by 404 people but it already did that!_

*The ability to sort or filter My Playlist *
---_That wishlist feature scored a 3.16 but again itr already did that!_

*An option to list channels in column and time in rows, so I can get a quick glance of what is coming in the next a few hours on one particular channel.*
---_It always did that but still scored 2.9 on the features wishlist!_

*The ability to change the default options on series link *
---_Again, it always did that but still scored 3.6 on the features wishlist!_

*The ability to mark and delete multiple items in My Playlist*
---_Yet again, another feature we craved that it already did - score: 2.9!_

So there are a total of 10 Wishlist Features that we scored between 2.9 to 4.0 out of 5 that we now have!

Happy Thanksgiving!

- Craig


----------



## Milominderbinder2

crockett said:


> Once the list was finalized have they added any requested features on the wishlist?


The _Wishlist Survey_ is not closed! It has been greatly updated. Please take it again if you have not since this past weekend. Doug has done a great job turning it into a punchlist.
- Craig


----------



## Que

Top 10



> 1 4.465↑ Dual Live Buffers
> 2 4.333↔ The ability to auto-change to a channel - same as if recording program without actually recording it
> 3 4.200↑ Guide button should bring up guide first and options second
> 4 4.000↔ The ability to adjust screen position
> 5 3.867↓ Always return to most recently accessed position on My Playlist when using LIST
> 6 3.838↓ Fast Forward autocorrection
> 7 3.802↑ Apply Current/Favorite Channels as a filter during Search
> 8 3.751↓ In all menus, the Left Arrow should function like the BACK button and in menus that don't have a right screen pane, the RIGHT Arrow should function like the SELECT button
> 9 3.726↑ Picture in Picture - ability to have both tuners display on the screen at the same time
> 10 3.703↓ Enable consumer installable Hard Drive Expansion Device - Investor Day 2/22/06 Slide 41


----------



## walkrman5

tiger2005 said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't see the difference. If you use Dual Buffers for live TV or sports, where is the difference? I use dual buffers for both sports and non-sports ALL the time. If DirecTV won't add Dual Buffers because they believe only a small % of people use them for sports then they are doing a disservice to their customers for indicating they are the leader in providing sports programming. If they are a leader in this area then they should be doing everything in their power to enhance that viewing experience, not taking away from it.
> 
> Also, if the poll read 'dual buffers, a must-have for sports' and 'dual buffers, a must-have for live TV', the total vote would still be 516 indicating that dual buffers are a must have.


Well said. I just recieved my hr20...and it is fine with the exception of DUAL BUFFERS. I use it EVERY time I watch TV..PERIOD. Sports..movies...news....EVERYTHING. At this point I am going back to my HR10. This is a "must have"...and to essentially take that piece of technology "away" from us ridiculous. This is 2006 and D* takes one step forward & one step back. Is it really that difficult?


----------



## antneye

sorry for stupid redundant q, but is it expected that the dual buffers will be added? If so, is there a timeline?


----------



## walkrman5

antneye said:


> sorry for stupid redundant q, but is it expected that the dual buffers will be added? If so, is there a timeline?


I think we are getting the now typical D* "run-around" on this topic. I see many posts on this board about them (D*) looking into it...researching it...that it will be a software upgrade....that it is a Tivo patented technology so it will NOT be added...etc...

My feeling is it will be a long LONG time before...or IF we ever see it again and D* will just bury thier heads in the sand and continue to try and dangle the proverbial carrot in front of their consumers and tell us it will be a future enhancement.


----------



## Doug Brott

walkrman5 said:


> I think we are getting the now typical D* "run-around" on this topic. I see many posts on this board about them (D*) looking into it...researching it...that it will be a software upgrade....that it is a Tivo patented technology so it will NOT be added...etc...
> 
> My feeling is it will be a long LONG time before...or IF we ever see it again and D* will just bury thier heads in the sand and continue to try and dangle the proverbial carrot in front of their consumers and tell us it will be a future enhancement.


There are still two positives about this. (1) DirecTV has not said "No." That's not the same thing as a yes, but it's still a positive. (2) Clearly, the user base thinks that Dual Live Buffers are the #1 needed item after the necessary bug fixes and OTA. I'd even say that Dual Live Buffers would be higher than OTA for a large number of people. I doubt that DirecTV will completely bury their heads. I expect to hear an answer at some point indicating whether or not it's will happen.


----------



## bonscott87

walkrman5 said:


> I think we are getting the now typical D* "run-around" on this topic. I see many posts on this board about them (D*) looking into it...researching it...that it will be a software upgrade....that it is a Tivo patented technology so it will NOT be added...etc...
> 
> My feeling is it will be a long LONG time before...or IF we ever see it again and D* will just bury thier heads in the sand and continue to try and dangle the proverbial carrot in front of their consumers and tell us it will be a future enhancement.


I don't think there is any run-around on this at all.

1) Dual buffers was never on the drawing board for this product and they haven't said anything other then they would now consider it.
2) There are obvioulsy much more pressing concerns like getting it more stable, get OTA going and the other advanced features all ready on the drawing board.

If there is any chance I certainly wouldn't expect it until later next year, if that. My opinion only but there are just too many other things they need to get done first.


----------



## Neil

I use my dual buffers all the time on my SD DirecTivo. I watch cable news all day and I like to fast forward through the boring segments and then pause to switch to another network. Of course, on Saturdays during the fall I use the buffers for football. 

The bigger issue for me is the multi-room viewing via Ethernet. That would give me access to six tuners (assuming three HR20's), tree live buffers (making the dual buffers a moot point), triple the storage space, and it would save me from running around the house every time I finish watching a show to delete it from the other boxes.


----------



## Que

bonscott87 said:


> 2) There are obvioulsy much more pressing concerns like getting it more stable, get OTA going and the other advanced features all ready on the drawing board.


 Personally I think that should have been fixed before it hit the ship-gate. I might be an old timer but I'm use to getting things out of a box and it works. Now a day, if it can be updated in some way they will ship the bug full. Only in hopes they can updated it later and not to piss off too many people that will return it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> Personally I think that should have been fixed before it hit the ship-gate. I might be an old timer but I'm use to getting things out of a box and it works. Now a day, if it can be updated in some way they will ship the bug full. Only in hopes they can updated it later and not to piss off too many people that will return it.


Welcome to the future. Actually, this was true with past DVR products, this isn't really anything new. However, the trend will be for Consumer Electronics to ship more quickly with fixes on the way. Gone are the days of a great product from the beginning. The $ are just too important and the faster you're out, the better off you are - remember Windows vs. OS/2?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Now that Rupert is getting rid of his "Turd Bird" we can all hope that D* gets rid of it's "Turd-Bird" and brings TIVO back !!!


----------



## Jeremy W

DC_SnDvl said:


> Now that Rupert is getting rid of his "Turd Bird" we can all hope that D* gets rid of it's "Turd-Bird" and brings TIVO back !!!


You go right ahead and hope for that. I hope DirecTV continues on with their stuff. I don't ever want another Tivo in my house.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Jeremy W said:


> You go right ahead and hope for that. I hope DirecTV continues on with their stuff. I don't ever want another Tivo in my house.


I think I could live without my Tivo if they get these dual live buffers going.


----------



## Jeremy W

jaywdetroit said:


> I think I could live without my Tivo if they get these dual live buffers going.


Lucky for me, I never used the dual buffers. So I don't miss them at all, and I don't really care if DirecTV ever adds the feature to the HR20.


----------



## tfederov

Same here. (to jay's comment)


----------



## ebisads

MUST HAVE


----------



## Que

Just a bump for all the new people!


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## Just J




----------



## Slip Jigs

More on Viiv - been trying to find out more info on what it's all about, and what it's supposed to do but details are sketchy. 

So far, it looks like it's more of a hardware performace specification than a copy protection scheme. 

So that means that a vendor can decline support of their device is the networked computer doesn't match the Viiv spec.


----------



## richlife

Just J said:


>


Ditto!

There were early (VERY early) reports in the chat room last night that 10B has DLB -- it does NOT have DLB.


----------



## Just J

richlife said:


> There were early (VERY early) reports in the chat room last night that 10B has DLB -- it does NOT have DLB.


 After I created that smiley, posted it, and went to bed, I thought to myself "how dumb would I feel if that turned out to be a Christmas surprise that was one of the differences between 108 and 10B??" So I got back up, turned the HR20 back on, and checked.

 No joy. Oh, well - I'm sure they'll get to it sooner or later. (Note - I'm formally casting a vote for sooner. :lol: )


----------



## Doug Brott

Just J said:


> After I created that smiley, posted it, and went to bed, I thought to myself "how dumb would I feel if that turned out to be a Christmas surprise that was one of the differences between 108 and 10B??"


Sure wish you could have felt dumb today :lol:


----------



## Just J

brott said:


> Sure wish you could have felt dumb today :lol:


:lol: Don't worry - one way or another, I always find a reason to feel dumb.


----------



## DblD_Indy

Am going to put this mega post were I can so dont be supprised where or when you run ito it again.

My guess is that the real battle is Tivo vs non-Tivo here so I am going to try to address that situation. I have been watching this thread since it came out but wanted to wait till I had time to sit down with a nice cold diet dew and mull this over. It would be hard to say that I have not suggested my opinion about this yet as I have "whined", "flamed" and generally been a pain in the a** about it since the 2nd day the unit was installed in my home. The first day, I left as soon as the installer finished and only had time to hear those frighting works. "Now Sir, you do understand that by activating this unit you agree to a two year commitment with our company". This I understood, then they were followed by you are leasing this unit SUPRISE! If you want to hear my rants about this please search the forum for my posts on this, because I really want to stay on top of the what I will call the public expectations of a DVR/TIVO unit.

I want to try to present my argument from the stance of Jane and John Q Public ( I married Jane and as a high tech Homer J. should be able to come close). Those who disagree are more than willing to present your side of what Jane and John think. Don't worry Jane and John don't read the forums, they use their pc's to read email and check the weather. Heck, in this house Jane still uses AOL as do millions of John and Jane's. They don't have time to even consider forums or blogs or other research tools. If they have a problem they call the manufacture /sales agent and try to work though this maze of CSR levels. They are usually busy taking care of their 1.14 children; running to soccer, basketball, and piano lessons. They work an average of 1.9 to 2.07 jobs per household and when the get a chance to relax they melt into the sofa/easy chair and watch TV or fire up a video game. Nothing more refreshing than taking out the wife 20-30 times playing COD2/3.

They now have a new HD TV for Christmas and saw on the DTV site when paying their bill that they could "upgrade" their Tivo for only $299.00 to HD. They are kind of hip, they use on-line bill pay. I use the phrase TIVO because that is what 90% of John and Jane's have. They don't have a DVR nor do they have an MP3 player they have an IPOD. DVR = TIVO for John and Jane D*TV client.

So, John and Jane pickup the phone and and say "Upgrade me to HDTV". Then they get the sales pitch about how high the demand is and that they will need to wait for a few weeks. If you would like to be put on the list.... Sure, put us on the list they say. If I have to WAIT then it must be GREAT! (Good marketing here D*TV). I have yet to be in a HHGregg, BestBuy or Circuit City that has NOT had a HR20-700 you could take home with you that day. I was in BB yesterday and they had 8 units in both old and new packaging.

But hey, John and Jane are to busy to go store to store to look for one. So they wait.....By the time the automated call comes in saying that D*TV has a unit reserved just for them John Q is so excited about the possibility of his new TV toy, he is like a puppy with a brand new ball. Hopefully not wetting about the house but very excited never the less.

So when the unit is finally installed they are excited about all the pretty colors on the screen, and the HD images from outer space. It is like a whole new world. Ah, but the excitement fades.

It starts with switching back and forth inputs so they can see their local nightly news in HD or the local small market PBS channel so they can see their collage basketball team play. That's right ISU beat Butler! Remember John and Jane don't have OTA because they don't read the forums. They have no 0x108 or 0x10b, how sad. So they make their first call to D*TV. They are told with assurance that that OTA should be available by the first of the year. We just want to make sure it is working right first. You would not want a broke unit would you...If John or Jane gets nasty, here it comes....BAM! "Now Sir, you do understand that by activating this unit you agreed to a two year commitment with our company" They say ok then again are assured by D*TV that this service will be available as soon as possible.

Now the weekend comes They have not really been able to give the box the test and the couch and easy chair are calling and there is a cold six of PBR in the fridge. It is only when they try to flip back and forth between two tuners that they realize what they have gotten themselves into. They have been able to do this for year and are sure they can now. It is an upgrade...right? What button is it that I don't know how to push. They don't want look stupid and call back and be told by a snotty CSR that what they need to do is reboot or press the new red, green, yellow or blue buttons. So they try that first. They click and click and still nothing. Now they are desperate they start looking for the manual, you know the one that is in the box they put some place after the installer left. Now please get this strait, looking through the manual for assistance with a piece of Technology is the 2nd worse thing to John Q only after stopping to ask directions on a family vacation. Seriously how many houses were you in back in the day that had VCR's blinking 00:00!

John and Jane got their first TIVO as soon as the geeks at work started talking bout this wonderful device that will save the world. No commercials, watch two things at the same time and see what you want when you want....They wanted Satellite because it comes into your house from outer space, or the simple fact that they live in the middle of BFE and cable is not an option. This lead them to D*TV and their first Series2 TIVO the rest is history, DVR = TIVO.

Now they are really p*ssed!, They don't know what the feature was but they want it back. (dual buffers, that don't clear and a single button to swap tuners) So they call D*TV. The D Tech starts off with the fact that these "TIVO" features were never promised and not even listed. Then they move to "Now Sir, you do understand that by activating this unit you agreed to a two year commitment with our company" by this time you hear, YOU ARE SCREWED GIVE UP! and if you are willing to fight just a little bit longer get transferred to level 2 and get free stuff. Yea! $25.00 credit on my bill. Keep fighting harder and you get moved client retention YIPEE ! My advice, John, keep fighting it gets much better than $25.00.

In my case, I often have to deal with the public, I have learned to keep my cool and avoid getting hot headed over CSR stuff but was hung up on 4 times at D*TV and once transferred to hold for one hour and five minuets before calling on a second line and playing the hold music for the level one tech. Even after this, my call was again"dropped" in transfer. John or Jane if you read this remember GET CSR numbers they really come in handy. I really think that this treatment (ignore John and Jane and they will go away) as well as " If I have to WAIT then it must be GREAT!" is D*TV's plan for putting a few extra dollars in their pockets by dumping TIVO. I really think this is the I will do what I want to you; because I can; mentality that seems to be ruling big business and our country at the moment.

So the bulk of my argument is I would pick HR-15 or anything with TIVO / TIVO type Technology because:

1) The general public expects the same but better when they "upgrade". When I get a new car I expect a FM radio. It is no longer an "option" it is a function. I expected Tivo or something better when I upgraded to the HR20 and I bet thousands of John and Jane's are in the same boat and are being dumped at level 1 CSR because they don't know they have thousands of brothers and sisters who feel the same and are willing to just give up and take it.

2) They like there stuff to work out of the box. If box and manual says "OTA" it should work when you take it out of the box.

3) This forum only represents less than a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of D*TV's clients The clients who are willing to read, search and research to get better answers as to how to do what they want to do. And change the issues that they have with the system. Even in this minuscule "high tech" group dual buffer and TIVO like features stays near the top of the wish list: http://www.redh.com/hr20/index.php?module=results&op=_list

4) John and Jane will most likely never get past level one when calling D*TV because:

a) "Now Sir, you do understand that by activating this unit you agreed to a two year commitment with our company" 
b) "We" as consumers are being trained by big company America that we have to take it, as they dish it, and it is pointless to fight the big company. Unless you are an x-smoker, or your SUV rolls over or your life saving medicine makes you even worse. All great examples of an attorney willing to take up the fight or mainly "profit" from the little guy. My apologizes to attorneys working in childcare to fight for a child who can not defend his/herself. And those who protect all those who can not protect themselves, and Erin Brockovich of course.

5) And finally having to record two channels every single time you want to watch two shows is not an acceptable "upgrade". I am a third generation D*TV DVR user and this idea is a joke. Me and my brothers and sisters in John and Jane land most likely would have been very happy to pay an extra dollar or two a month to keep the features we loved, we just were never ask.

So D*TV you are doing a great job at getting the listed features to work on the HR20-700 with 0x10b, now get the expectations of your general public working and I think you may have a winner with the HR20 but until then, I will send everybody to eBay to look for a used working HR15.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DblD_Indy,

Very well written and fully characterizes a very large segment of the John and Janes out there. And actually covers several segments, at least in part.

You do realize that by sending that post, you have committed to 2 years of D*? 
Tom


----------



## mtnagel

DblD_Indy said:


> Am going to put this mega post were I can so dont be supprised where or when you run ito it again... [sniped]


Great story! I like the way you write.


----------



## jaywdetroit

DblD_Indy said:


> *snip*
> 
> So D*TV you are doing a great job at getting the listed features to work on the HR20-700 with 0x10b, now get the expectations of your general public working and I think you may have a winner with the HR20 but until then, I will send everybody to eBay to look for a used working HR15.


Great post - I too have been put on hold for an hour once with D* - so i know where you are coming from. I have noticed a vast improvement in the CSRs the last few times I've called though.

- that aside-

I think I was in the same boat with you when i first signed up - as far as my attitude about the 2 year commitment. But if the coders working on the HR20 continue to respond positively to the requests being made in this forum, I think I will have to re-align my thinking. If a company the size of D* can respond to the demands of their customers effectively, then someone there is doing something right. It's easy -real easy- to slam Big Corps (i do it all the time). It's not so easy to give them credit when it's due.

I am amazed at how D* has responded to this forum. Its been said many times, but they needs some kudos for that. *HOWEVER*

That is not to suggest there is plenty of room for improvement in other areas- just because the coders are paying attention, doesn't mean the people running the call centers are.

Good Post - Good topic.


----------



## Drewg5

Dual live buffers will do nothing for me. I have no use for them in my tivo. The 90min buffer is much more usefull. The only people I can see wanting the dual live buffers are Football fans that pay the extra for the football package. Not every one pays the extra for football. I only know one person who payed the extra, and about 50 or so who wouldent


----------



## jaywdetroit

Drewg5 said:


> Dual live buffers will do nothing for me. I have no use for them in my tivo. The 90min buffer is much more usefull. The only people I can see wanting the dual live buffers are Football fans that pay the extra for the football package. Not every one pays the extra for football. I only know one person who payed the extra, and about 50 or so who wouldent


Do a search on this topic and read some of the other comments about this. It is well established that MANY people beyond football fans value Dual Live Buffers. There are many of us that use it as a method for watching 2 almost live shows, and skipping the commercials. Others, that pause the show they are watching during commercials, and channel surf the other tuner.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

DblD_Indy said:


> but until then, I will send everybody to eBay to look for a used working HR15.


HR15???


----------



## ctwilliams

I have used the directivo since it was first available, but did not think that switching and loosing the dual live buffers was a big deal.

I had NO idea how often I used the tivo in that way -- watching two programs at once. 

After using the HR20 for a week or so, I now realize what a loss that feature is. I am going to stay with my HR10-250 until I am forced over by new HD nationals.


----------



## jheda

DblD

Fantastic Post. One of the best ive seen. Until i discovered this forum I was John(except that I am an attorney and never stop at level1), I have posted here numerous times that i did not realize when i upgraded i would NOT have dual buffers. I do not have nfl ticket btw; I watched two "almost live shows" alot using the dual buffers. I would have thought twice about upgrading had I known the hr20 lacked dual buffers. I believe we justifiably relied on the new product as you say to have at least what the tivo had, or give us notice to that extent.

HOWEVER, as much as I miss dual buffers (and i do alot) I am impressed with D's attentionn to this web and the progress of the hr20. I believe based on the response d has made to this forum they WILL hear our voice that without dual buffers they have not made hr20 the complete product it holds itself out to be. I believe with this forum and the amazing job Earl does it will happen sooner rahter then later.


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## mtnagel

Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.

*But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? Like, how could you watch two sitcoms or two dramas back and forth? Doesn't it ever get confusing? Why not just record them both and watch one and then the other? If you catch up to live, then you started it too soon. Just watch something recorded (or go do something else) before watching the recording show. I do that all the time. If it's 9 pm on Monday and Heros is coming on, I'll either watch something like a half hour show or do something else, like get my clothes ready for work, brush my teeth and let the dogs out. Then I'll start at about 9:15 and catch up right before the end. Even for football, the only reason I switch back and forth is because there is a decent chance of hearing the score either by the score ticker, a break in the game to show a highlight, halftime, etc. If there was zero chance of hearing the score of the other game, I would watch one whole game and then start the other and watch it completely. I'd much rather not switch back and forth, but the chance of having the score spoiled is too great (I can't watch a game if I know the score). When my wife is home and wants to watch the local Bengals game, but I'm switching back and forth between the Bills game (my hometown team) and the Bengals game, she gets annoyed and confused.

So, can anyone explain it to me? Again, don't slam me, I'm just curious. And I don't have any problem with D* adding the feature since I know I don't have to use it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> *But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? Like, how could you watch two sitcoms or two dramas back and forth? Doesn't it ever get confusing? Why not just record them both and watch one and then the other? If you catch up to live, then you started it too soon. Just watch something recorded (or go do something else) before watching the recording show. I do that all the time. If it's 9 pm on Monday and Heros is coming on, I'll either watch something like a half hour show or do something else, like get my clothes ready for work, brush my teeth and let the dogs out. Then I'll start at about 9:15 and catch up right before the end. Even for football, the only reason I switch back and forth is because there is a decent chance of hearing the score either by the score ticker, a break in the game to show a highlight, halftime, etc. If there was zero chance of hearing the score of the other game, I would watch one whole game and then start the other and watch it completely. I'd much rather not switch back and forth, but the chance of having the score spoiled is too great (I can't watch a game if I know the score). When my wife is home and wants to watch the local Bengals game, but I'm switching back and forth between the Bills game (my hometown team) and the Bengals game, she gets annoyed and confused.
> 
> So, can anyone explain it to me? Again, don't slam me, I'm just curious. And I don't have any problem with D* adding the feature since I know I don't have to use it.


Matt, first of thank you for taking it seriously and not deriding people for their choices of how to view. Much appreciated! I hope no one slams you for doing a decent thing.

There are couple of times I most use DLB. The most common time is when I'm watching two sporting events live. I very much dislike trying to watch recorded games, they very quickly lose my interest when I realize there is no drama, its already done. (Now, why I can say that but still get caught up in the drama of a movie or tv show is a very interesting question...) 

So I watch one game and have the other tuner on another that I'm only somewhat interested in. As the one progresses and a break occurs, I'll flip over, see where things are and if something vital just happened, back it up to see how we got there. I generally don't try to watch both by pausing and alternating, tho some people do and I'm glad they can with DLB.

Other times are when I'm watching something live for whatever reason and want to see whats happening on another channel briefly. I'm usually not so much trying to watch another show, but surf around, again during breaks.

(and once in awhile, I'll have 3 plus games I'm interested in and try to use DLB on two DVRs in PIP. )

Anyway, there is how some of us use DLB. Thanks for asking.

Merry Christmas,
Tom


----------



## jclark

tibber said:


> Matt, first of thank you for taking it seriously and not deriding people for their choices of how to view. Much appreciated! I hope no one slams you for doing a decent thing.
> 
> There are couple of times I most use DLB. The most common time is when I'm watching two sporting events live. I very much dislike trying to watch recorded games, they very quickly lose my interest when I realize there is no drama, its already done. (Now, why I can say that but still get caught up in the drama of a movie or tv show is a very interesting question...)
> 
> So I watch one game and have the other tuner on another that I'm only somewhat interested in. As the one progresses and a break occurs, I'll flip over, see where things are and if something vital just happened, back it up to see how we got there. I generally don't try to watch both by pausing and alternating, tho some people do and I'm glad they can with DLB.
> 
> Other times are when I'm watching something live for whatever reason and want to see whats happening on another channel briefly. I'm usually not so much trying to watch another show, but surf around, again during breaks.
> 
> (and once in awhile, I'll have 3 plus games I'm interested in and try to use DLB on two DVRs in PIP. )
> 
> Anyway, there is how some of us use DLB. Thanks for asking.
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> Tom


Very nice response.

I mainly use DLB for channel surfing during commercials while watching live TV. It is just a very nice feature to pause at the beginning of the commercial break and switch to the other tuner to surf. When you are done, switch back and you are still paused. Then just FF through commercials and you are ready to watch.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jclark said:


> Very nice response.
> 
> I mainly use DLB for channel surfing during commercials while watching live TV. It is just a very nice feature to pause at the beginning of the commercial break and switch to the other tuner to surf. When you are done, switch back and you are still paused. Then just FF through commercials and you are ready to watch.


Thank you.

And you've reminded my of another use. When my wife gets a phone call, I'll pause a live show and surf on the other buffer. When she gets back, away we go, where we left off.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tibber said:


> (and once in awhile, I'll have 3 plus games I'm interested in and try to use DLB on two DVRs in PIP. )
> Tom


I'd still like to see PIP on the HR20. E* will soon have a side by side PIP built into their DVR's.


----------



## Doug Brott

theratpatrol said:


> I'd still like to see PIP on the HR20. E* will soon have a side by side PIP built into their DVR's.


From Earl's photos, there is one decoder chip in the HR20. The decoder chip is the Broadcom Chip there on the right-hand side.










I checked out the Product Brief from Broadcom and on page 2, the following statement is made:



> The BCM7411 supports the following decoding operations:
> * 1 HD (MPEG-2, H.264 or VC-1) in real-time
> * 2 SD (MPEG-2, H.264 or VC-1) in real-time


So, based on this information, the HR20 could do Picture-in-Picture *some of the time*, but it could not do it for any HD programming.


----------



## mtnagel

tibber said:


> Matt, first of thank you for taking it seriously and not deriding people for their choices of how to view. Much appreciated! I hope no one slams you for doing a decent thing.
> 
> There are couple of times I most use DLB. The most common time is when I'm watching two sporting events live. I very much dislike trying to watch recorded games, they very quickly lose my interest when I realize there is no drama, its already done. (Now, why I can say that but still get caught up in the drama of a movie or tv show is a very interesting question...)
> 
> So I watch one game and have the other tuner on another that I'm only somewhat interested in. As the one progresses and a break occurs, I'll flip over, see where things are and if something vital just happened, back it up to see how we got there. I generally don't try to watch both by pausing and alternating, tho some people do and I'm glad they can with DLB.
> 
> Other times are when I'm watching something live for whatever reason and want to see whats happening on another channel briefly. I'm usually not so much trying to watch another show, but surf around, again during breaks.
> 
> (and once in awhile, I'll have 3 plus games I'm interested in and try to use DLB on two DVRs in PIP. )
> 
> Anyway, there is how some of us use DLB. Thanks for asking.
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> Tom


So what you are saying is you don't have a vested interest in one or both games, but are just trying to watch for the good parts? I guess I could see that.

See, for me, I watch two teams and I want to watch every play of both games. I rarely watch games that don't involve those two teams. So really, even DLB wouldn't help me when they are on at the same time because unless you FF in between plays and halftime, 30 minute buffers wouldn't be enough (I guess two 90 minute would). That's why even with the Directivo, I'd record both games and then still use the down arrow to switch between both games, but I'd mostly be behind by more than 30 minutes.

And about watching live, I NEVER watch live. Like I said, if a show I want to watch happens to be on when I'm watching tv, I will still watch something recorded so I don't have to worry about watching commercials. Or like I said, no something else while waiting for it to be late enough to not have to watch commercials.


----------



## mtnagel

tibber said:


> Thank you.
> 
> And you've reminded my of another use. When my wife gets a phone call, I'll pause a live show and surf on the other buffer. When she gets back, away we go, where we left off.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yeah, that would be a good use. My wife gets a ton of phone calls. Either I'd keep watching (since she doesn't care) or I may watch something else recorded.


----------



## jheda

mtnagel said:


> Yeah, that would be a good use. My wife gets a ton of phone calls. Either I'd keep watching (since she doesn't care) or I may watch something else recorded.


As others have said for me its the 2 sports at one time ........especially baseball. It is a game i love but oh so slow........my son and i enjoyed flipping between 2 games dual buffers style - switching each time an inning ended- where we are spending 2 hours and not a moment of commericals, and really close to live....ie yankee game and redsox game. This was my favorite feature , which unbeknownst to me i lost when i "upgraded".

I wont be satisfied until dlb is added, but im confident it will be based on D's response to issues outlined on this forum.....


----------



## DblD_Indy

Just J said:


>


DITTO !


----------



## DblD_Indy

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> *But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? Like, how could you watch two sitcoms or two dramas back and forth? Doesn't it ever get confusing? Why not just record them both and watch one and then the other? If you catch up to live, then you started it too soon. Just watch something recorded (or go do something else) before watching the recording show. I do that all the time. If it's 9 pm on Monday and Heros is coming on, I'll either watch something like a half hour show or do something else, like get my clothes ready for work, brush my teeth and let the dogs out. Then I'll start at about 9:15 and catch up right before the end. Even for football, the only reason I switch back and forth is because there is a decent chance of hearing the score either by the score ticker, a break in the game to show a highlight, halftime, etc. If there was zero chance of hearing the score of the other game, I would watch one whole game and then start the other and watch it completely. I'd much rather not switch back and forth, but the chance of having the score spoiled is too great (I can't watch a game if I know the score). When my wife is home and wants to watch the local Bengals game, but I'm switching back and forth between the Bills game (my hometown team) and the Bengals game, she gets annoyed and confused.
> 
> So, can anyone explain it to me? Again, don't slam me, I'm just curious. And I don't have any problem with D* adding the feature since I know I don't have to use it.


Not only games Matt, I like to flip back and fro between NASCAR NFL and INDY Racing and on some Sunday's all three are on at the same time.

Most importantly is we have had this in the two previous generations of D_TV equipment and would have expected it to be included in this one too.


----------



## richlife

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> *But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? ... So, can anyone explain it to me? Again, don't slam me, I'm just curious. And I don't have any problem with D* adding the feature since I know I don't have to use it.


Good question, Matt. And I'll bet almost everyone can come up with some different reason. I pretty much agree with all the reasons listed, but they aren't my main reason. I don't watch much live tv anymore. When I watch recorded tv, pretty much all my attention is on that show (that's why I recorded it). But for me some of the fun of TV is being able to surf or to skip a commercial or catch one show while doing both or either. Without DLB I can;t do that (well, yes I can watch a recording and jump around, but not much point). TV to me is casual, catch some viewing for a few minutes or an hour without having to invest full time watching a show. That's when DLB is a treasure.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mtnagel said:


> So what you are saying is you don't have a vested interest in one or both games, but are just trying to watch for the good parts? I guess I could see that.
> 
> See, for me, I watch two teams and I want to watch every play of both games. I rarely watch games that don't involve those two teams. So really, even DLB wouldn't help me when they are on at the same time because unless you FF in between plays and halftime, 30 minute buffers wouldn't be enough (I guess two 90 minute would). That's why even with the Directivo, I'd record both games and then still use the down arrow to switch between both games, but I'd mostly be behind by more than 30 minutes.
> 
> And about watching live, I NEVER watch live. Like I said, if a show I want to watch happens to be on when I'm watching tv, I will still watch something recorded so I don't have to worry about watching commercials. Or like I said, no something else while waiting for it to be late enough to not have to watch commercials.


Now, when the Packers are playing I watch live, every play, and, lately curse far too often... Sigh...

Again, thank you for asking.

Merry Christmas,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

richlife said:


> Good question, Matt. And I'll bet almost everyone can come up with some different reason. I pretty much agree with all the reasons listed, but they aren't my main reason. I don't watch much live tv anymore. When I watch recorded tv, pretty much all my attention is on that show (that's why I recorded it). But for me some of the fun of TV is being able to surf or to skip a commercial or catch one show while doing both or either. Without DLB I can;t do that (well, yes I can watch a recording and jump around, but not much point). TV to me is casual, catch some viewing for a few minutes or an hour without having to invest full time watching a show. That's when DLB is a treasure.


Well said.

Merry Christmas,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tibber said:


> Now, when the Packers are playing I watch live, every play, and, lately curse far too often... Sigh...


Not this week, fellow Cheesehead.


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not this week, fellow Cheesehead.


A bit during the sloppy first half, far less in the second. Thursday will be as "live" as it gets--going with my dad to Lambeau.

Merry Christmas,
Tom


----------



## DerekVM

Is this a dlb application?

Viewing 73, espnhd 
Approx 30mins captured in the buffer
Pause the buffer at 10:30
From the MyPlaylists menu item start a recorded movie and play through 45 mins
Press the “exit” button to return to paused espnhd
Returned to espn playing, not paused, at 11:15. 
I expected to return to 73 paused at 10:30


----------



## joejhawk

DerekVM said:


> Is this a dlb application?
> 
> Viewing 73, espnhd
> Approx 30mins captured in the buffer
> Pause the buffer at 10:30
> From the MyPlaylists menu item start a recorded movie and play through 45 mins
> Press the "exit" button to return to paused espnhd
> Returned to espn playing, not paused, at 11:15.
> I expected to return to 73 paused at 10:30


No. Watching a game on Fox, pausing at a commercial, hitting 1 button to swap to other tuner, check out another (or multiple since I can change the channel without losing the other buffer), hit 1 button and continue to watch the game on Fox.

Or better yet, have a PIP with a game on the other receiver, notice a big play, hit 1 button to swap and rewind to see what happened. That is one way I use it.

I understand that a lot of people don't use it, but when you get used to using it you miss it when it's gone. My mother-in-law who doesn't watch football returned her HR20 the day it was installed when she discovered she couldn't do it so it's not just for football.


----------



## DerekVM

joejhawk said:


> No. Watching a game on Fox, pausing at a commercial, hitting 1 button to swap to other tuner, check out another (or multiple since I can change the channel without losing the other buffer), hit 1 button and continue to watch the game on Fox.
> 
> Or better yet, have a PIP with a game on the other receiver, notice a big play, hit 1 button to swap and rewind to see what happened. That is one way I use it.
> 
> I understand that a lot of people don't use it, but when you get used to using it you miss it when it's gone. My mother-in-law who doesn't watch football returned her HR20 the day it was installed when she discovered she couldn't do it so it's not just for football.


Sounds like a Tivo box, not the HR20?


----------



## mikewolf13

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> I use it when I watch sports. As many have previously stated. Typically on Sundays I am watching the Eagles game, at commercials I pause Eagles and flip aroud other games or watch Red ZOne CHannel....Because the game is paused I take my time and usually end up back on the Eagles about 2 minutes behind live TV. This allows me to FF through most of the next commercial break or Replay review. I do run a slight risk of being spoiled on a score in the Eagles game, but this is rare as most of the time I spend surfing is during a commercial break. in order to be spoiled, I would need to miss when the game returns, a team would have to score AND I would need to see thescore flash on the screen.
> 
> I also use the Mix channel...this ensures I get back to the Eagles right as commercial ends, but in interim I can keep eye on 7 other games, wihtout losing "MY" replay of the TD play 10 minutes ago.
> 
> I use it when I am waiting to know what the score is on a game, but I am watching live TV: i set one tuner to ESPNEWS, watch my show. at commercial flip back and rew through the ticker on the bottom til I see score.
> 
> Also useful If i am watching recorded programming, one tuner is recording and I want to monitor scores, or a game or even a show I don't really want to record..like if i caught a glimpse of Deal or No deal and want to knwo hat happend but don't care enough to record
> 
> I use it when i am watching one program and their is breaking news or something my wife wants me to check out on another channel..
> 
> If I am not quite up to real-time, due to bathroom breaks, kids, phone calls etc, and I switch to check out CNN or ESPN, or whatever. Without DLB I lose the buffer on the program I am watching unless i then stop to record that program.
> 
> Sometimes while watching Live, when prgram goes to commerical I will channel surf to kill time. Everynow and then you find something get into it and forget to go back quickly, and miss something. Not with DLB.
> 
> There are times when I do watch two programs at a time...Watch one til it gets to commercial then flip to other show wathc this that gets to commercial then go back to first one. I cannot tell you how this makes sense or why I do it. WHy not just record them and watch like a sane person? I dunno.. basically it allows me to avoid commercials in both, and I can watch two hour long programs in 80 minutes, and be almost live in both.
> 
> Generally I do this with shows i would never record yet somehow feel compelled to watch when I stumble across them
> 
> Honestly until this whole DLB/DVR+ thing happend I thought I was the only one who did this kinda thing. It's nice to know I am not alone.
> 
> Finally, the one reason I think it bewilders people aboutthe DLB, is that it seems to be so simple and standard a feature, if you have two tuners. I have no need for cruise control in my car for 98% of the driving I do...but I am not sure I would buya car without it, as I would question what and why other design "choices" were left off that seem so standard.
> 
> All of these can be worked around in some way but the DLB way is much easier and can be used in many different ways by alot of people. With NO downside for those that don't want to use it. The decision not to have it available seems to be a poor one to me.
> 
> But I certainly understand why you or anyone else would never use DLB in the manner I do.


----------



## Just J

Another DLB appropriate smiley:


----------



## joejhawk

DerekVM said:


> Sounds like a Tivo box, not the HR20?


Yes, that's how I used it when I had Tivo and would like to be able to do with my HR20.


----------



## DblD_Indy

I am starting to feel that we should start out every DLB post with"

My name is DblD_Indy and I have been DLB free for 18 days.

Then the forum says, Hi DblD_Indy.

Then we tell about our sleepless nights and how every now and then slip and "sniff, sniff" go back to using one of our old non-hd units so we can feel the power between jumping back and forth channels using only one button and then simply pausing changing and coming back in a single click to restart without ever having to press recored.... OH GOD THE POWER.....I am better now, the meds kicked in.

In Cheers, Sam had a bottle cap to keep him strong in his struggle. I am thinking about prying off a “Thumbs-up” button from a old remote to carry with me to help me be strong as I walk this path. I feel I am dealing with what only can be described as Post DLB Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. The sad thing is that as of yet HR20 has a cure and I have heard it can be terminal. 

Freeing minds with humor and wit, not Catchy Home brew Avatars and F-Bombs.


----------



## raott

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> *But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? Like, how could you watch two sitcoms or two dramas back and forth? Doesn't it ever get confusing?


Most have covered it, but for me it is in three scenarios.

First is sports, which has been well covered by others.

Second - I'm watching a show on one channel and want to surf around on another without losing the buffer on the other. Why not record it and watch it later? Because for many shows, like PTI, the time they are on is the most convenient time, because my wife and daughter will be home later and after that it is almost impossible to watch.

Third - if there are two new stories, or I want to conveniently catch up with sports on one station and local news on the other etc, dual buffers allows me to do that without having to fool with recording both and then deleting them later.

Some people record everything and watch zero live TV. That is not what I do, I watch a mix of live and recorded shows and dual live buffers gives me that flexibility. Watching ONLY recorded TV is actually less convenient many times.


----------



## btmoore

DblD_Indy said:


> I am starting to feel that we should start out every DLB post with"
> 
> My name is DblD_Indy and I have been DLB free for 18 days.
> 
> Then the forum says, Hi DblD_Indy.


I started a HR20 12 step program today.

Here is a reprint:

We admitted we were powerless over our HR20-that our lives had become unmanageable. 
Came to believe that a code release cycle could restore us to sanity. 
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of DirecTV. 
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of our HD equipment. 
Admitted to the HR20, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs caused us by DirecTV coding defects. 
Were entirely ready to have DirecTV remove all these defects of code. 
Humbly asked DirecTV to remove the HR20 shortcomings. 
Made a list of all persons we had harmed after having your HR20 crash and lose recordings, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 
Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wronged by statements of improved stability in release notes. 
Sought through phone calls and meditation to improve our conscious contact with DirecTV as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge and power to carry out fixes to the HR20. 
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other HR20 owners, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I am sure a step could be modified to address DLB


----------



## Just J

raott said:


> Second - I'm watching a show on one channel and want to surf around on another without losing the buffer on the other. Why not record it and watch it later? Because for many shows, like PTI, the time they are on is the most convenient time, because my wife and daughter will be home later and after that it is almost impossible to watch.


The other problem here is that when a sporting event runs long, it can mean the show you're interested in starts and stops late. If you attempt to record it, you can miss the end (or, for 30 minute shows, you can miss the whole show and end up recording the show that was supposed to air before the show of interest). If I'm watching in DLB mode, I don't have to worry about any disconnect between scheduled and actual air times.










(And, before you ask, yes: I *am* going to keep posting that smilie every chance I get. )


----------



## pprather

mtnagel said:


> Can I ask a serious question? I'm not trying to slam anyone (so please don't slam me) because I realize that people watch tv in different ways.
> 
> *But*, why would you guys want to watch two shows at once? Like, how could you watch two sitcoms or two dramas back and forth? Doesn't it ever get confusing? Why not just record them both and watch one and then the other? If you catch up to live, then you started it too soon. Just watch something recorded (or go do something else) before watching the recording show. I do that all the time. If it's 9 pm on Monday and Heros is coming on, I'll either watch something like a half hour show or do something else, like get my clothes ready for work, brush my teeth and let the dogs out. Then I'll start at about 9:15 and catch up right before the end. Even for football, the only reason I switch back and forth is because there is a decent chance of hearing the score either by the score ticker, a break in the game to show a highlight, halftime, etc. If there was zero chance of hearing the score of the other game, I would watch one whole game and then start the other and watch it completely. I'd much rather not switch back and forth, but the chance of having the score spoiled is too great (I can't watch a game if I know the score). When my wife is home and wants to watch the local Bengals game, but I'm switching back and forth between the Bills game (my hometown team) and the Bengals game, she gets annoyed and confused.
> 
> So, can anyone explain it to me? Again, don't slam me, I'm just curious. And I don't have any problem with D* adding the feature since I know I don't have to use it.


Personally, I use the DLB for my kids. I pause their shows, then turn on a music channel during dinner then go back to my kid shows after dinner. they don't miss anything and I get a slight break. I know i could record the shows but this is simple. Or i might want to check something out quickly on another channel, so i simply pause the one channel, check out the info on the other channel, then come back to my original channel without missing a beat. It may only be a minute or so for the whole routine so recording the original channel seems silly. Just my thoughts.


----------



## HarleyD

btmoore said:


> I started a HR20 12 step program today.
> 
> Here is a reprint:
> 
> We admitted we were powerless over our HR20-that our lives had become unmanageable.
> Came to believe that a code release cycle could restore us to sanity.
> Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of DirecTV.
> Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of our HD equipment.
> Admitted to the HR20, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs caused us by DirecTV coding defects.
> Were entirely ready to have DirecTV remove all these defects of code.
> Humbly asked DirecTV to remove the HR20 shortcomings.
> Made a list of all persons we had harmed after having your HR20 crash and lose recordings, and became willing to make amends to them all.
> Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
> Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wronged by statements of improved stability in release notes.
> Sought through phone calls and meditation to improve our conscious contact with DirecTV as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge and power to carry out fixes to the HR20.
> Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other HR20 owners, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
> 
> I am sure a step could be modified to address DLB


Now THAT'S funny. :hurah:


----------



## richlife

pprather said:


> Personally, I use the DLB for my kids. I pause their shows, then turn on a music channel during dinner then go back to my kid shows after dinner. they don't miss anything and I get a slight break. I know i could record the shows but *this is simple. Or i might want to check something out quickly on another channel, so i simply pause the one channel, check out the info on the other channel, then come back to my original channel without missing a beat. It may only be a minute or so for the whole routine so recording the original channel seems silly.* Just my thoughts.


I wanted to bold italicize the section above because it hits the nail right on the head. It simplies!! This TV watching thing has gotten very complicated (just try to browse all these forums). DLB helps to SIMPLIFY and thus enhances my enjoyment of TV.


----------



## Que

I do the same thing. I don't watch that much sports. A few hockey games that is it. (If there is any on) I mainly watch CNN and use the 2nd one to just surf. 

Wife watches soaps shows on both tuners. She would be the hard one to change. I was ready to change over. I just waited after I seen no dual buffers and tons of bugs. I'm sure it will get worked out. I just don't think it will take over any time soon.


----------



## mtnagel

Well you guys have definitely shown how you use dual buffers. It's just not the way I watch tv. For your sake, I hope DLB are coming soon, but for me, I just have no need.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

I WANT MY DUAL BUFFERS!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE


----------



## jheda

JACKIEGAGA said:


> I WANT MY DUAL BUFFERS!!
> 
> MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE


ditto on both sentiments........


----------



## tjboyd

I have to admit... DLB is getting near the top of my "most wanted" list!
MERRY CHRISTMAS FROM SUNNY SO CAL!


----------



## kicksavedave

Cast another vote craving for DLB, I cannot believe this great feature is missing. I used it all the time, for ST football games of course, but for routine watching of other things as well. 

If there was a game on, say MNF, where I don't care that much about seeing every play, and the wifey wants to watch a sitcom, during the sitcom commercials I'd flip back to MNF, see if anything good happened, then flip back to the sitcom. If I got back to the sitcom a minute late, I'd just rewind back to the end of the last commercial. 

It was a wonderful feature, and I HATE that it's absent from the HR20. I think the only real solution to getting back to where we were, is to buy another TV and DVR 

Merry Xmas to all


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

We should all start cancelling premium channels until we get DLB
GIVE US DUAL LIVE BUFFERS NOW!!!

Merry Christmas All!!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

JACKIEGAGA said:


> We should all start cancelling premium channels until we get DLB
> GIVE US DUAL LIVE BUFFERS NOW!!!
> 
> Merry Christmas All!!!!


While I am intrigued by your plan of attack, can I suggest we all hold off a bit longer? Since this is not a feature originally planned, this might take some careful architect work before it can be coded and tested. Unless Directv says they won't do it, I wouldn't want to start a riot just yet.

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Tom


----------



## BillyBob_jcv

I want DLB, but I still want MRV even more. MRV is by far my most missed feature from my pair of hacked S2 DTivo.


----------



## mikewolf13

Que said:


> Just a bump for all the new people!


(this is meant to be sincere not harsh..but my filter is off so I apologize in advance)

*Please, Please Please* stop.

If you have something to add, add it. or for godssake at least pretend to have something to add.

Yes people want DLB. even without your bumps it's all over the board.

Do us all a favor and buy an ad asking for DLB. or start bumping all the "can i download programs to my PC?" threads since that is what new people keep asking about...

but if a thread dies on it's own let it die... every time you bump it you de-bump a more recent post that someone is more interested in.

if someone new does post or inquires about DLB, they probably are better served by a new thread than a 20 page (mostly off-topic) thread that get bumped more out of agenda that anything worthy(including this...damn irony).

I appreciate your passion. I don't disagree with the endgame. But we get it, and if DTV doesn't know by now that 75% of the poll wants DLB then another 100 votes won't matter.


----------



## Que

I took it as sincere. When I bump it was for a new user that posted this
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74293
There are tons each day. I will still bump this when it hits the 3rd or 4th page. Until a mod tells me not too or until HR20 has it. I can still *help* you though.

Don't click the link. If there is something new there will be a new post about DLB. Maybe even more then one. Hehe.


----------



## jheda

Que said:


> I took it as sincere. When I bump it was for a new user that posted this
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74293
> There are tons each day. I will still bump this when it hits the 3rd or 4th page. Until a mod tells me not too or until HR20 has it. I can still *help* you though.
> 
> Don't click the link. If there is something new there will be a new post about DLB. Maybe even more then one. Hehe.


As a compromise, cana dlb thread be made into a sticky? just a thought, the lawyer in me trying to mediate here........


----------



## cazual

jheda said:


> As a compromise, cana dlb thread be made into a sticky? just a thought, the lawyer in me trying to mediate here........


I second the sticky vote.


----------



## Que

Earl already said there are too many sticky now. I really like it this way. Most new users goes over the sticky anyways.


----------



## DblD_Indy

Que said:


> Earl already said there are too many sticky now. I really like it this way. Most new users goes over the sticky anyways.


Third, fourth and fifth on sticky. How many similar posts and polls have there been in just the last two weeks.

I think the only ones with issues about keeping this poll alive are the ones who could care less about DLB and we see what % of the voters they are!

Another option would be we forget waiting on D*TV to program DLB or even a *solid consistant OS* for the HR20-700 and cut a check to TIVO. As a third gen D*TV DVR user I would be happy to pay additional $10.00 a month for DTV with TIVO OS option for my HR20-700.


----------



## Que

DblD_Indy said:


> Third, fourth and fifth on sticky. How many similar posts and polls have there been in just the last two weeks.
> 
> I think the only ones with issues about keeping this poll alive are the ones who could care less about DLB and we see what % of the voters they are!
> 
> Another option would be we forget waiting on D*TV to program DLB or even a *solid consistant OS* for the HR20-700 and cut a check to TIVO. As a third gen D*TV DVR user I would be happy to pay additional $10.00 a month for DTV with TIVO OS option for my HR20-700.


I think someone said that D* did it to save $1 per account(Tivo). I know it's not the only reason but *I bet they are looking back at that now!* Can we just REW time?


----------



## jaywdetroit

Que said:


> I think someone said that D* did it to save $1 per account(Tivo). I know it's not the only reason but *I bet they are looking back at that now!* Can we just REW time?


We've pretty quiet about the whole DLB thing for the past couple of weeks. I think we need to stir it up again.


----------



## richlife

jaywdetroit said:


> We've pretty quiet about the whole DLB thing for the past couple of weeks. I think we need to stir it up again.


You got my vote. Beats reading some of these threads! 
DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy:

:welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome:


----------



## jheda

richlife said:


> You got my vote. Beats reading some of these threads!
> DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy:
> 
> :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome:


Agreed.....................wow what a new years present if they loaded dlb in the next firmware release!..........a must have for mlb


----------



## Just J

richlife said:


> You got my vote. Beats reading some of these threads!
> DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy: DLB - :joy:
> 
> :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome:


----------



## jheda

my fingers are crossed, dlb is a slice of heaven, lets look for it on 07!


----------



## DblD_Indy

jheda said:


> my fingers are crossed, dlb is a slice of heaven, lets look for it on 07!


Deal,

How about we look for it during the first Quarter of 2007?

Does anyone know if D*TV is listing any of the possible changes for the next RC?


----------



## marksman

Que said:


> I took it as sincere. When I bump it was for a new user that posted this
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=74293
> There are tons each day. I will still bump this when it hits the 3rd or 4th page. Until a mod tells me not too or until HR20 has it. I can still *help* you though.
> 
> Don't click the link. If there is something new there will be a new post about DLB. Maybe even more then one. Hehe.


A suggestion for you is if you want to help new people find this thread, then post a link to it in the other thread you referenced. That way in the course of that discussion they can come here for more information.

I know of no reasonable forums where bumping of threads is considered proper etiquite. It runs the natural flow of a forum and it makes it so some people feel what they have to say or support is somehow more important than things others are talking about.

Linking to a thread like this would be the proper way to bring it to the attention of new people in a newer thread. Not bumping it.


----------



## DblD_Indy

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Thanks for the comments. Very good points guys. I will pass your comments onto the DIRECTV folks in charge so they understand your position.
> 
> Maybe they will give in to Season Ticket holders and give them the option to selectively turn off the Showcases download during the football season or as I stated earlier have the program put off the downloads till the middle of the night.
> 
> -Robert


Then Pass this on too.

By taping two channels to watch dual football games in HD, (buffer work around). We are recording 6 hours of HD TV just to be able to switch between the two games. In recoding both to be able to switch we are burning losing 48 hours of saved standard definition programing or 6 of HD on or drive if these have not been saved as keep till I delete.

Dual buffers make more since all the way around.

I know it does not matter to all those you who only use the DVR's to watch "24", "Jail Break", "Jericho" "Hero's" and reruns of Friends via time shifting but there are those of us who like to watch 2 things at the same time and be able to time shift "South Park", "The Simpsons" and "Earl".

We had a good tool to do both in our Series 2 and "H" Series units and deserve our "upgraded" product the HR20-700 to have the same features.


----------



## Que

1003 votes!!!



Just J said:


>


Maybe after the 8th months mark most bugs will be gone then they will get with DLB!!!


----------



## jaywdetroit

Que said:


> 1003 votes!!!
> 
> Maybe after the 8th months mark most bugs will be gone then they will get with DLB!!!


Can we Get TIBBER to Ask if this is on the RADAR at CES????

TIBBER??? What do you say?


----------



## sandsoftime6090

yes


----------



## jaywdetroit

Seems appropriate to me to post a link to this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=75735


----------



## Que

Just a bump for all the new user!


----------



## Tom Robertson

jaywdetroit said:


> Can we Get TIBBER to Ask if this is on the RADAR at CES????
> 
> TIBBER??? What do you say?


Sorry, missed this in the fury of new threads this past couple weeks. Was very much on the radar. I got a great acknowledgment that the users want this bad and therefore the Product managers are seriously looking at it. But as has been stated lately, stability FIRST. (and now we're seeing new whispers, from the main bear fan himself, that this might be a go.)

Remember, tho, other features may be further along in the development process, so they would show first, especially if any redesign is needed for DLB.

Cheers,
TOm


----------



## machavez00

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## jheda

Important to bump once in a while, some new user thought dlb was ia interest of only a minority of the users........LOL


----------



## DblD_Indy

I think that for Valentines day D*TV should show us just how much they love us and give us DLB! Screw the candy and flowers, Give me what I really want...


----------



## HR20screwed

Quick Story,

First I would like to thank everyone on this board and one particular genius, bobnielsen. Also a huge thanks to litzdog911. 

OK, now for the good part:

I had my wife call D* the week of Christmas to complain about the cost of the new HD20-700 since the Tivo in the bedroom crashed, and I knew that they were finally shipping. She was successful in what I was trying to accomplish - have D* send us a new HD20-700 with the 5LNB dish needed for the Local HD channels free of charge. But thats not why I'm posting!

We received it last night - by far the worst dish install I have ever seen, and will be out there this weekend doing most of it myself. the tech handed me the guides and said good luck, "I gots to go."

So, it was me and the HD20-700S - S for Silver - Wow, lots of blue lights, OK...lets see what this baby can do - I can read and figure it out, right?

OK, it said it can record 2 shows at once - OK, lets see where the other tuner is and get it going on a separate channel - yep, right there is where the smelly brown stuff hit the fan, and boy did it hit hard - walls, floor - everywhere!!!!

No 'Dual Live Buffers' - this is a deal breaker. I have the 40 inch Sony XBR800 tube - 1080i. Beautiful picture on HDMI, Component, even S-Video is wonderful due the comb filters and line doublers this 380 lb set has - it's a boat anchor, but I love it.

So, I quickly realized after reading though this that there is a name for what I love about my Tivo and what the HR20-700 doesn't have and never will have.

Yes, I called D* this AM and told them to give me a return shipping address - it's coming back. No penalty either - I keep the big dish (an added benefit in bad weather at this point since it only benefits the Local HD on the HR20-700).

I still have my old High Def Dish with the 3 LNB'rs with the 4 lines coming out of it.

Anyway, I purchased an HR10-250 Tivo this AM from a trusted vendor, since it does what I want it to - I realized there was only one option - fork over some cash and get the HD Tivo, and I already have a 120 inch antenna in the attack that picks up all my locals in HD. I was using it with my old Hughes E86 HD receiver when the sat would go out - or to just get my HD fix on the weekends. It was sitting next to the Tivo that is now in the bedroom.

So, to clear things up. I had a HIRD-E86 HD Platinum Digital Satellite Receiver connected only to the 120 inch boom antenna sitting next to my trusty Hughes SD-DVR80 Direct TV Tivo connected to 2 lines on the 3LNB dish. 

Now I have an HR20-700S connected to the antenna and 2 of the lines coming out of the bigger 5LNB dish that a knuckle head tech poorly installed (it gets 95 on the signal strength meter - it just looks like crap) and I don't have that one blessed feature that I really want, know as

***** D L B ******

So, D* lost an HR20 customer this AM, but not a paying customer....they really missed the target - if I had only known...I feel especially sorry for those that are actually buying these things!

I learned the easy way, I got lucky - I have nothing to loose but a few bucks in shipping.

What I don't know is: 

Will that bigger 5 LNB dish work with the HR10-250 Tivo? I suspect it will. If not, somebody please tell me so I can psych myself up to unwrap & cut the huge ball of duct tape the knuckle head wrapped around my galvanized steel post to make the collar for the new 5LNB dish fit!!!! It's awful - I had to leave the area - I nearly came unglued when I saw him ball up the tape!!!!!!!!!!

Screwed but not Tattered


----------



## SuperTech1

"what the HR20-700 doesn't have and never will have"


I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you.....:eek2:


----------



## DblD_Indy

HR20screwed said:


> Quick Story,
> 
> First I would like to thank everyone on this board and one particular genius, bobnielsen. Also a huge thanks to litzdog911.
> 
> OK, now for the good part:
> 
> I had my wife call D* the week of Christmas to complain about the cost of the new HD20-700 since the Tivo in the bedroom crashed, and I knew that they were finally shipping. She was successful in what I was trying to accomplish - have D* send us a new HD20-700 with the 5LNB dish needed for the Local HD channels free of charge. But thats not why I'm posting!
> 
> We received it last night - by far the worst dish install I have ever seen, and will be out there this weekend doing most of it myself. the tech handed me the guides and said good luck, "I gots to go."
> 
> So, it was me and the HD20-700S - S for Silver - Wow, lots of blue lights, OK...lets see what this baby can do - I can read and figure it out, right?
> 
> OK, it said it can record 2 shows at once - OK, lets see where the other tuner is and get it going on a separate channel - yep, right there is where the smelly brown stuff hit the fan, and boy did it hit hard - walls, floor - everywhere!!!!
> 
> No 'Dual Live Buffers' - this is a deal breaker. I have the 40 inch Sony XBR800 tube - 1080i. Beautiful picture on HDMI, Component, even S-Video is wonderful due the comb filters and line doublers this 380 lb set has - it's a boat anchor, but I love it.
> 
> So, I quickly realized after reading though this that there is a name for what I love about my Tivo and what the HR20-700 doesn't have and never will have.
> 
> Yes, I called D* this AM and told them to give me a return shipping address - it's coming back. No penalty either - I keep the big dish (an added benefit in bad weather at this point since it only benefits the Local HD on the HR20-700).
> 
> I still have my old High Def Dish with the 3 LNB'rs with the 4 lines coming out of it.
> 
> Anyway, I purchased an HR10-250 Tivo this AM from a trusted vendor, since it does what I want it to - I realized there was only one option - fork over some cash and get the HD Tivo, and I already have a 120 inch antenna in the attack that picks up all my locals in HD. I was using it with my old Hughes E86 HD receiver when the sat would go out - or to just get my HD fix on the weekends. It was sitting next to the Tivo that is now in the bedroom.
> 
> So, to clear things up. I had a HIRD-E86 HD Platinum Digital Satellite Receiver connected only to the 120 inch boom antenna sitting next to my trusty Hughes SD-DVR80 Direct TV Tivo connected to 2 lines on the 3LNB dish.
> 
> Now I have an HR20-700S connected to the antenna and 2 of the lines coming out of the bigger 5LNB dish that a knuckle head tech poorly installed (it gets 95 on the signal strength meter - it just looks like crap) and I don't have that one blessed feature that I really want, know as
> 
> ***** D L B ******
> 
> So, D* lost an HR20 customer this AM, but not a paying customer....they really missed the target - if I had only known...I feel especially sorry for those that are actually buying these things!
> 
> I learned the easy way, I got lucky - I have nothing to loose but a few bucks in shipping.
> 
> What I don't know is:
> 
> Will that bigger 5 LNB dish work with the HR10-250 Tivo? I suspect it will. If not, somebody please tell me so I can psych myself up to unwrap & cut the huge ball of duct tape the knuckle head wrapped around my galvanized steel post to make the collar for the new 5LNB dish fit!!!! It's awful - I had to leave the area - I nearly came unglued when I saw him ball up the tape!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Screwed but not Tattered


Dude! I agree with you 100% on the HR20-700 but it is getting better and I hope by LUV day to have my precious DLB back on the unit.

As for the crappy install, Call D*TV and have them make it right. I am certain they will get the installer back on site within the week.

The 5LNB dish is the way to go. So keep it, I am using it on my 2 TIVO units and my old school receiver and it works MUCH better then my old dish.

Good luck and stick around, the fun never seems to end.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

:backtotop

With sooooo many votes in the poll - some observations.

Personally, I have very little interest in the use of dual buffers on either of my 2 HR20s myself. I voted it as a "OK to have", and that's probably generous IMHO.

That said, its very clear  from this poll and numerous posts in various threads that this is a hot button for alot of folks, and there is a real passion for it for some HR20 users (especially former Tivoboxers).

I suspect that this has caught the attention of the right folks (Earl & D*TV) that this is a highly-desired item. My guess is that once the HR20 undergoes a bit more updating so that the *consensus* is that the box is stable, you'll see it some time soon thereafter.


----------



## bwaldron

HR20screwed said:


> Quick Story,
> Will that bigger 5 LNB dish work with the HR10-250 Tivo? I suspect it will. If not, somebody please tell me so I can psych myself up to unwrap & cut the huge ball of duct tape the knuckle head wrapped around my galvanized steel post to make the collar for the new 5LNB dish fit!!!! It's awful - I had to leave the area - I nearly came unglued when I saw him ball up the tape!!!!!!!!!!


The HR10 will work with the 5-LNB dish (it is a 3-LNB dish as far as the Tivo is concerned).

I do miss dual buffers on the HR20. I didn't use them constantly, but often enough (generally watching two games at once) that I miss them dearly.

On the other hand, there is a good amount of HD sports that I can only get (and record) with the HR20...so I'm sticking with it and muddling through.

Enjoy your HR10-250, and we'll see you back here when you decide to jump back in the HR20 waters.

(Not even going to comment on your install ... yuck!)


----------



## HR20screwed

bwaldron,

Thank you and others for the reply's. I'm looking forward to getting my HR10, and since I have the big OTA, the local HD should be seamless (A buddy of mine has the HD10 using OTA with great success) The new dish sure does look cool - I feel like the Jones - my nieghbors are sure to have some envy, but the DLB is far more important given I can see what I want in HD with the HR10. For my wife and I a day without the DLB is a day to many, she called me today to let me know she upstairs watching her Tivo (with a new HR20 sitting OFF in the Family Room) - that speaks volumes. I would like to think that D* is reading these postings and knodding their heads - possible knodding their heads there is nothing they can do. It's now my understanding the DLB technology is copy protected by Tivo. I don't think we are going to see this feature anytime soon, but that doesn't mean never - it a question of how bad does D* want it for the customers - and will it affect their bottom line. Right now, probably not and as time wears on, the less of a priority it will be - as new subscribers take delivery of the new hardware - not even knowing what they are missing. So, am I sticking my neck out by saying..."the HR20-700 doesn't have and never will have"...

You decide. I already made my decision without dwelling on it.

Just don't hold your breath on this one - we are the minority and only becoming more so, and Dave knows it - just take a look at what everybody else is posting about.

Good night!


----------



## DblD_Indy

HR20screwed said:


> bwaldron,
> 
> You decide. I already made my decision without dwelling on it.
> 
> Just don't hold your breath on this one - we are the minority and only becoming more so, and Dave knows it - just take a look at what everybody else is posting about.
> 
> Good night!


I do see the negative posts about us never getting dlb but if you look at the poll it does show that 74% of those posting, DLB is a Must have throw in those would like to have it and it shows that 93.45% of folks would like to have DLB on these systems.

I wish you the best and have to say that if it does not come soon I too will be checking out ebay for a HR10 to replace this unit. The bad news is D*TV has told me that now that I have leased the unit, they will take it back but not refund any of my %%% so worst case, I can install HD in the bathroom. Have a great night & again welcome to the forum.


----------



## HR20screwed

Indy, I think those that post here and bother to share ideas - and complaints - represent a small sector of the D* HD subscribers. I agree most everyone that can post wants DLB, but what % is that compared with all D* subscribers. Here we are the majority, among the bill payers - we are probably small potato's.

OK, you said you leased - does this mean you didn't pay for the HR20? Of did you pay a small portion - say $200 or $400? If your ready to switch back to an HR10, you should call D* to complain, and demand a return and refund. 

Technically I was one day into my lease, and a 2 year contract - and I got out. It's a gamble since you can't buy these new anymore, and I will be getting the protection plan when I activate. I sure would hate to see it crash in a few days, months or even years. I have had great success with one of my Tivos - the other one lasted 3 year. I've decided to get a batt back up - I'm sure power interruptions aren't good on a Tivo I already have the units plugged into a Monster Power conditioner - surge protector, and the entire house is on surge protection. As I mentioned a friend of mine has had his HR10-250 for 3 years now (he purchased new for $1000 when they came out) and has had no problems. I can only hope I have the same success.

Regardless, I sure would love to DLB hit the HR20 - I just don't have the patients!!!!!


----------



## DblD_Indy

Regardless, I sure would love to DLB hit the HR20 - I just don't have the patients!!!!!

I hear you there, I called and called and the best offer I got was some free programing, they gave me an address to send a written complaint to but offered to take the unit back but would only take it back. They would not refund my $299.00 or let me out of the two year agreement.

They said that had to come via the "address" people.

So i wait and pray and spend most of my free time scouring these posts for a hope of DLB or even better D*tv giving in and pushing ot an OS with TIVO.

About your first statement.

Indy, I think those that post here and bother to share ideas - and complaints - represent a small sector of the D* HD subscribers. I agree most everyone that can post wants DLB, but what % is that compared with all D* subscribers. Here we are the majority, among the bill payers - we are probably small potato's.

I agree that we may seem small potato's but I would be sure that the greater % of bill payers are in the same boat. Just that they don't yet search the web because we as American consumers have learned that the little guy has no control over the big company so with fight it.

Well, I enjoy the fight win or loose, some days it seem that I mostly loose but it is fun to try to fight the good fight.

You should read my John and Jane Q Public post. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=756615#post756615

Best of luck.


----------



## HR20screwed

Hey Indy, good dialog.

You may have to send me some flip flops, though. I admit that my wife (lovely wife) is a driving factor for this DLB concern. But last night we watched CSI Miami in HD, and actually used the live buffer way past the 30 min mark...we had a moment of clarity - and I ceased it. I may have convinced her this isn't so bad after all, where the workaround is to hit the guide and then the record button if there is something else on you want to see. I may have convinced her to sell that HR-10 we just purchased and put the $400+ back in the back (maybe get the Harmony 880 - to mitigate our other complaint) Even though I already called D* to send me a Recovery Kit, I can still back out - my bases are still covered. My wife has already figured this HR20 out, and she's no longer grubleing, but we still have the old Tivo in the bedroom.

I have even told her about these posting, that there may be a glimmer of hope for DLB - though small - I'm guessing D* would have to pay Tivo to make it happen.

My next call to Dave will be to complain, to try and get Showtime for 3 months - Can I take a pic of my dish install and post it? It's truley the most awful install I have ever seen. I have a quality roll of Aluminum tape (missle grade) that I'm going to use to wrap the post with, after I cut the ball of duct tape off. (the installer didn't even take the time to wrape the tape straight - it's a ball, then he shooved the dish on and tightened the bolts - this guy needs a good b*tch slapping!

send me some flip flops (hey, I'm honest) Still some work to be done on my better half - but we're almost there.

TJ


----------



## jasonblair

I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


----------



## Sixto

jasonblair said:


> I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


Makes it very easy to watch two games at once and not miss a play.

Watch game-a, commercial/break-in-action, swap to tuner 2, watch game-b, commercial/break-in-action, swap to tuner 1, score changed? rewind, catch missed action, swap back to tuner-2. Very easy. Can also pause other tuner if you really want to watch every play of each game.

Can also watch Leno/Letterman at same time. or the O'Reilly/CNN shows at same time at night, or two baseball games.

Very, very useful.


----------



## Curt Lindner

jasonblair said:


> I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


I have a friend that says the same thing, and all I can say is WHY???

There's nothing I love more than watching it delayed, then skipping commercials, time outs and halftime to get back to the game.

Surely you are aware that even when you are watching it "live", when you are watching over satellite, you are 1-3 seconds delayed from when it "actually" happens, right?

So, there is no way to watch sports on video that is not delayed to some extent. If you've ever tried to listen to the game on radio while watching on TV, then you've already realized that.


----------



## HarleyD

Do you really need to see why? People want it, period.

I record the game I want to see and start watching it about an hour or two after it started. I can zip past commercials, halftime and all the mindless drivel spewing from the commentators between plays.


----------



## bwaldron

jasonblair said:


> I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


Well, then, you're never watching "live." There is delay from bouncing off the satellites, and recording on the DVR. 

A few minutes vs. a few seconds...makes no difference to me.


----------



## Curt Lindner

Funny how some folks don't bother to read the replies before echoing what has already been written.


----------



## HR20screwed

Well said, Curt! Funny how it says "New Member" but you joined THREEE AND A HALF YEARS AGO!!!!

I'm getting used to the HR20...as long as you know what you like to watch (stange as it may seem - I'm there are folks that don't even now that) you can set up the HR20 to your liking and effecienlty work around the no DLB issue, and make use of the 90 min SLB....which is what I'm in the throws of doing - right now - between postings....

Where is the best place to find a Harmony 880 - I know thats another thread!

somebody send me some flip flops - as I eat my words!~!~!~!~!


----------



## Curt Lindner

HR20screwed said:


> Well said, Curt! Funny how it says "New Member" but you joined THREEE AND A HALF YEARS AGO!!!!


Heh heh! Yep, I'm the oldest new member ever!

It may seem irrelevant to this or any conversation regarding the HR20, but actually it is very relevant. I've been frequenting this and the other, older DBS related forum essentially since they were created. I've been first a DISH, and now a DTV customer since their 1st year of service. The fact that I am back posting and reading here is because of the problems with the HR20!

Prior to switching to DTV, I had been a happy DISH customer. However, they released a product called the DISHPlayer, which was based upon Microsoft's WebTV device, and it's bugginess was eerily similar to what you folks with HR20s are experiencing now. Anyone who owned a DISHPlayer knows exactly what I mean. After I switched to DTV and the DirecTivos, these receivers worked so well I never needed to bother spending so much time worrying about if they were going to work, and I was able to spend more time just watching TV. I think I initially registered to post here in order to advertise my DISHPlayers for sale after switching, but had been reading the forum since it started.

I hope that they can work out the bugs in the HR20, and implement the buffers as well. I'm being patient for now, but not being able to record HDTV reliably will, sooner or later, drive me away from DTV to Cable or DISH.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jasonblair said:


> I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


If I'm watching a Packer game, I'm right with you. I can't buffer that and come in later. But I can do my own instant replay from time to time.

On the other hand, if I'm watching some games that I'm mildly interested in, if they are interesting matchups, or have division implications, or what have you, I can buffer multiple games and flip around. The Mix channels will be great in HD some coming season!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DblD_Indy

jasonblair said:


> I still don't see why anyone would want buffering AT ALL for football... I can't stand watching something that I know is delayed when it comes to sports.


This years Super bowl says it all!

Many Colts Fans grew up either Bears fanz or Bengals (du-con-squad) fanz as we had no team....

we often try to watch those and others, like why would you want NFL ticket if you only followed one team. If Sexy Rexy is chucking up balls to everyone but a Bear you tune in the COLTS or some other game and check back. Who played first in the RCA Dome Rex or Peyton?

Thank goodness there is only one color poster in the boys room with wonderful numbers like 18/88/44/92 and now DA BOOGER... GO COLTS!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tibber said:


> If I'm watching a Packer game, I'm right with you. I can't buffer that and come in later. But I can do my own instant replay from time to time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Plus the Pack usually puts their opponents away within about 3 to 3 1/2 hours anyway, eliminating the need for padding (like that last game of the season trouncing the Bears in Chicago - opps - sorry to bring that up Earl). 

*THAT* game, I've saved and played over & over & over & over.... :lol:

After all, as a team owner (2 shares), I have to keep up with MY team. That reminds me, I have to call Brett today to make sure he announces coming back for 1 more year soon.... :hurah:

See...with only 1 real team to watch, I don't have much need for dual buffers (like the way I got back on topic)? :eek2:


----------



## jasonblair

bwaldron said:


> Well, then, you're never watching "live." There is delay from bouncing off the satellites, and recording on the DVR.
> 
> A few minutes vs. a few seconds...makes no difference to me.


Yes.. I know there is a delay from what happens at the stadium... But I couldn't stand knowing that all I have to do is fast forward to see what the score is RIGHT NOW.... (or at least 3-5 seconds ago.)

You guys who can sit there and NOT immediately catch up to what is happening right now are WAY more patient than I am.

And as far as "The point is, people want it..." This is a Poll thread... I thought the point was to state what we wanted.

And yes, I think I would use it for Leno/Letterman (if Letterman were funny) or something similar. But for sports, there's NO WAY I'd use it.


----------



## DblD_Indy

HR20screwed said:


> Well said, Curt!  Funny how it says "New Member" but you joined THREEE AND A HALF YEARS AGO!!!!
> 
> I'm getting used to the HR20...as long as you know what you like to watch (stange as it may seem - I'm there are folks that don't even now that) you can set up the HR20 to your liking and efficiently work around the no DLB issue, and make use of the 90 min SLB....which is what I'm in the throws of doing - right now - between postings....
> 
> Where is the best place to find a Harmony 880 - I know thats another thread!
> 
> somebody send me some flip flops - as I eat my words!~!~!~!~!


Must have taken a few years for Curt to come up with something good to say. :-/

Here you go!


----------



## BrettStah

jasonblair said:


> Yes.. I know there is a delay from what happens at the stadium... But I couldn't stand knowing that all I have to do is fast forward to see what the score is RIGHT NOW.... (or at least 3-5 seconds ago.)
> 
> You guys who can sit there and NOT immediately catch up to what is happening right now are WAY more patient than I am.


Yeah, I can understand your reasoning. For some sporting events, I can't delay it either. The NFC Championship game, for example, with the Saints. I had people over (too bad the Saints didn't really show up for the whole game  ), and it was the most exciting game of the season for Saints fans, for obvious reasons. But for other games, especially if it's only going to be me watching it, I look at the game as a whole, and know that I can't fast-forward to the end of the game if the end of the game hasn't happened. Therefore, what difference does it make whether I sit there and watch a game live, and have to suffer through so many commercial breaks (plus injury delays, instant replay delays, etc.), and then finally get to the end of the game, when instead I can record the game, go to lunch with my wife and/or kids, come back home, and start watching the game 1.5 hours or so after its start time, and watch every single play, including any replays I want to watch, and STILL usually catch up to "live" before the game actually ends? That's an hour and a half of real-life time that I save - doing family stuff, or watching something else, or napping, or whatever, instead of wasting that time on commercial breaks, etc.


----------



## Que

1168 Votes!


----------



## mapod

Well...DUH!!


----------



## Iwanthd

Is there a definitive answer to the question of whether DLB can be accomplished by a change in software only? Or, will DLB require new software AND new hardware?


----------



## jaywdetroit

Does anyone else get the feeling we are getting close to DLBs? 

Its in the air. Earl - wanna give out any cryptic clues?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Iwanthd said:


> Is there a definitive answer to the question of whether DLB can be accomplished by a change in software only? Or, will DLB require new software AND new hardware?


Consider this: the unit can record two things at once and playback a third. So the tuners, disk, etc. all can handle DLB.

Its all in the software at this point.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Iwanthd

tibber said:


> Consider this: the unit can record two things at once and playback a third. So the tuners, disk, etc. all can handle DLB.
> 
> Its all in the software at this point.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Makes sense to me, thanks for the response!


----------



## uteotw

This thread sure has been going a long time. SURE would like to see this happen soon...


----------



## DblD_Indy

Can we have them now?

How about now!

How about before the Daytona 500 ?


----------



## jheda

i know i am biased, but when 900 subscribers say must have from this limited population, 75% of us hardcores, D* needs to get this done. Please, an attempt before MLB when i plump down 180 bucks...show us a sign you are working on it...please us dedicated folks, before jaywdetroit sockmokey and I have a heart attack


----------



## mikewolf13

jheda said:


> i know i am biased, but when 900 subscribers say must have from this limited population, 75% of us hardcores, D* needs to get this done. Please, an attempt before MLB when i plump down 180 bucks...show us a sign you are working on it...please us dedicated folks, before jaywdetroit sockmokey and I have a heart attack


DLB was never a promised feature
DLB has never been announced as an upcoming feature
The machine was not designed to provide DLB
The software is not designed to handle DLB.

yes i understand, only 10% don't want it, (and even if you don't want it, i don't get why you would vote against it)

*Yes I want it. *

But it's not happening with the next update,
it's not happening by baseball season
It may NEVER happen with the current products which have many ANNOUNCED (and revenue generating) features yet to be implemented .

Call DTV. make your voice heard (FYI - THIS IS NOT A DTV WEBSITE), but please stop asking or wondering as if DLB is either likely or imminent....it is neither.


----------



## jheda

mikewolf13 said:


> DLB was never a promised feature
> DLB has never been announced as an upcoming feature
> The machine was not designed to provide DLB
> The software is not designed to handle DLB.
> 
> yes i understand, only 10% don't want it, (and even if you don't want it, i don't get why you would vote against it)
> 
> *Yes I want it. *
> 
> But it's not happening with the next update,
> it's not happening by baseball season
> It may NEVER happen with the current products which have many ANNOUNCED (and revenue generating) features yet to be implemented .
> 
> Call DTV. make your voice heard (FYI - THIS IS NOT A DTV WEBSITE), but please stop asking or wondering as if DLB is either likely or imminent....it is neither.


I have made my voice heard to DTV UNTIL i found this source, and now i have more faith in the "people" here and this site as a resource.. Apparantly you have more knowledge then they do, and thats great!!!! Please provide us the basis for your conclusion(s)and your source.....and thanks fo the education!


----------



## mikewolf13

jheda said:


> Please provide us the basis for your conclusion(s)and your source.....and thanks fo the education!


DLB was never a promised feature -* known fact- if you can educate me otherwise please do.*
DLB has never been announced as an upcoming feature-* known fact- if you can educate me otherwise please do.*

The machine was not designed to provide DLB 
The software is not designed to handle DLB

*.- basis :deductive reasoning*: If they ever intended to offer DLB with this machine it likely would have been an announced feature (my assumption) and therefore I see no reason to believe the machine was designed to handle this function. (not that isn't capable..but simpy wasn't intended to do that)

(edit)

But it's not happening with the next update, - *I think Earl has stated this( I assume he's one of the "people" you have faith in. *(again this is an assumption)
it's not happening by baseball season :* basis Deductive reasoning:*..if it's not designed for it, and based on Earl's comments it is on the drawing board but no plans yet on how or when.....well it's not happening in 2 months (opinion)

It may NEVER happen with the current products which have many ANNOUNCED (and revenue generating) features yet to be implemented . * The second part of that sentence is based on the 2005 DTV annual report promising a variety or services, features and products (VOD, DIrect2Go, etc) which would generate revenue. THe first part is not a definitive statement as I used the word may..but it is my opinion based on all of the above.*

Call DTV. make your voice heard (FYI - THIS IS NOT A DTV WEBSITE), but please stop asking or wondering as if DLB is either likely or imminent....it is neither.[/QUOTE]
Clearly the definitive statement "it is neither." is a summary of my thoughts above. It is simply opinion.

If you have any facts you would care to educate me on, about why we should expect DLB, I would love to hear them

The fact that alot of people want it, is not indicative of DTV's intention or timetable.

If it takes this long to fix the bugs and rollout services long promised, why would anyone assume DLB is anywhere in the short-term future?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> The machine was not designed to provide DLB.


I am probably splitting hairs here... but the hardware wasn't "designed" to record two things at once either.

It was designed to have two tuners that can independently access the video/audio stream.

It is the software that controls what is done with those two streams.

But the other three points, I will agree with you on.


----------



## jaywdetroit

mikewolf13 said:


> DLB was never a promised feature -* known fact- if you can educate me otherwise please do.*
> DLB has never been announced as an upcoming feature-* known fact- if you can educate me otherwise please do.*
> 
> The machine was not designed to provide DLB
> The software is not designed to handle DLB
> 
> *.- basis :deductive reasoning*: If they ever intended to offer DLB with this machine it likely would have been an announced feature (my assumption) and therefore I see no reason to believe the machine was designed to handle this function. (not that isn't capable..but simpy wasn't intended to do that)
> 
> (edit)
> 
> But it's not happening with the next update, - I think Earl has stated this( I ssume he's one of the "people" you have faith in. (again this is an assumption)
> it's not happening by baseball season :* basis Deductive reasoning:*..if it's not designed for it, and based on Earl's comments it is on the drawing board but no plans yet on how or when.....well it's not happening in 2 months (opinion)
> 
> It may NEVER happen with the current products which have many ANNOUNCED (and revenue generating) features yet to be implemented . * The second part of that sentence is based on the 2005 DTV annual report promising a variety or services, features and products (VOD, DIrect2Go, etc) which would generate revenue. THe first part is not a definitive statement as I used the word may..but it is my opinion based on all of the above.*
> 
> Call DTV. make your voice heard (FYI - THIS IS NOT A DTV WEBSITE), but please stop asking or wondering as if DLB is either likely or imminent....it is neither.
> Clearly the definitive statement "it is neither." is a summary of my thoughts above. It is simply opinion.
> 
> If you have any facts you would care to educate me on, about why we should expect DLB, I would love to hear them
> 
> The fact that alot of people want it, is not indicative of DTV's intention or timetable.
> 
> If it takes this long to fix the bugs and rollout services long promised, why would anyone assume DLB is anywhere in the short-term future?


Since you are basing your opinions and facts on deductive reasoning, I will too:

The fact that they were playing around with the behavior of the buffer in the last national release, is a signal to me the buffer behavior is on their mind, and is actively being tweaked. Which leads me to believe DLBs could be coming soon. I am not making any claims that the ARE coming, but it adds hope. I take this with comments that have been made by people who have had direct contact with the programmers such as these, 
"D* is WELL aware how important this feature is, and they are looking into ways to address it"

Those two things together give me cause to HOPE that something could happen soon.


----------



## jheda

jaywdetroit said:


> Since you are basing your opinions and facts on deductive reasoning, I will too:
> 
> The fact that they were playing around with the behavior of the buffer in the last national release, is a signal to me the buffer behavior is on their mind, and is actively being tweaked. Which leads me to believe DLBs could be coming soon. I am not making any claims that the ARE coming, but it adds hope. I take this with comments that have been made by people who have had direct contact with the programmers such as these,
> "D* is WELL aware how important this feature is, and they are looking into ways to address it"
> 
> Those two things together give me cause to HOPE that something could happen soon.


Yea, what he said!!! :


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> I am probably splitting hairs here... but the hardware wasn't "designed" to record two things at once either.
> 
> It was designed to have two tuners that can independently access the video/audio stream.
> 
> It is the software that controls what is done with those two streams.
> 
> But the other three points, I will agree with you on.


I understand, what I meant was, I believe they did not design or produce the DVR+ line with the intent to late introduce DLB. Certainly the H-ware is capable, but that is a fortunate accident.

With regards to JayW's comment.. I guess i interpret the timetable suggested in "they are looking into ways to address it" as much longer than he.


----------



## jaywdetroit

I guess I'm not done talking about DLBs yet today:

You the idealist in me (God is he loud) keeps saying - D* should speak up and give us a time frame to expect this feature, or speak up and tell us to just relax and forget about it for a year or two.

But I keep hearing this faint voice (realist) saying things like "What does D* have to GAIN from making any kind of announcement about DLBs?"

The answer is unfortunately - nothing. Most people don't know about this forum, and wouldn't know a DLB from LNB. So D* doesn't need to educate them on what they are missing.

As for us? Most of us already know what we are missing. They aren't going to intentionally scare us off by telling us they have no plans to implement.

And they gain NOTHING by telling us to expect it by say... February (ahem) 30th. (Thanks Earl) for so many obvious reasons.

So - I don't expect to hear anything from them, regardless of how much I'd like too. And right now I have *enough* reason to hope its coming.

So please don't ask me to shut up about it. I plan to keep making noise. (nicely - _for now_)


----------



## jheda

And in regards to "they never promised it", Ill gladly make the oral argument that when upgrading to the hr20, i was clearly told just that ...its an UPGRADE...it had more features, not less...and i relied on that when making the agreement. There was no caveat that this major feature was not incorporated,,,,The doctrine is call justifiable reliance. 

Agian, I think highly of D* and even more highly of this forumand until I am told FACTS and not opinions and deductions, I too will be the squeeky wheel....


----------



## jaywdetroit

jheda said:


> And in regards to "they never promised it", Ill gladly make the oral argument that when upgrading to the hr20, i was clearly told just that ...its an UPGRADE...it had more features, not less...and i relied on that when making the agreement. There was no caveat that this major feature was not incorporated,,,,The doctrine is call justifiable reliance.
> 
> Agian, I think highly of D* and even more highly of this forumand until I am told FACTS and not opinions and deductions, I too will be the squeeky wheel....


I've mentioned in previous posts that the retention rep that talked me into the HR20 sold me on the fact D* is going to add DLBs in the future. I know now, i was likely duped, but if you want to get technical, that is a promise.


----------



## mikewolf13

jheda said:


> And in regards to "they never promised it", Ill gladly make the oral argument that when upgrading to the hr20, i was clearly told just that ...its an UPGRADE...it had more features, not less...and i relied on that when making the agreement. There was no caveat that this major feature was not incorporated,,,,The doctrine is call justifiable reliance.
> 
> Agian, I think highly of D* and even more highly of this forumand until I am told FACTS and not opinions and deductions, I too will be the squeeky wheel....


I do not have a problem about asking or wanting DLB..Be a squeaky wheel.

What I do not understand is the assumption it will in fact happena nd that the timetable is within a mater of weeks.

An UPGRADE by definition does not mean "every feature as before plus more" the improved features were outlined in marketing and press releases.

My Realist agrees with yours that they have nothing to gain by announcing you will not get DLB. My realist interprets the silence as just that...you seem to think that means they are bringing you DLB but quietly as to not increase expectations.

Earl's silence on a date...my realist thinks that is because as they don't even know how to implement it, any possible implementation is months away. His silence is becuase he has no new concrete information

Your realist apparently thinks Earl is being coy and knows a date but can't tell.

My realist thinks your realist is an unbridaled optimist who probably thinks that Carmen Electra doesn't respond to my letters cause she really wants me and is playing hard-to-get.

My idealist, hopes your realist is right. It makes no sense to me why they did not design with DLB. if you don't use it, fine, if you don't like it don't use it...

I never use the redial button on my home phone....but my idealist would be damn shocked to buy a phone without redial functionality....

As far as "promises", I think we all know that DTV CSRs are not reliable sources of information particularly about future products or features...and reliance on their "promises" is fool's gold.


----------



## jaywdetroit

mikewolf13 said:


> My realist thinks your realist is an unbridaled optimist who probably thinks that Carmen Electra doesn't respond to my letters cause she really wants me and is playing hard-to-get.


Talk about coming out of right field...

Um - I do have a 'half-full' mentality about many things. But the last time I talked to Carmen she made it explicitly clear that things could not continue as they were. So naturally... my Realist assumed she meant DLBs were coming to the HR20 soon. I may be an optimist - but I am not so stupid as to assume she was talking about our secret meetings.

On a more serious note: Carmen Electra? The last time I sent a letter to a celebrity was when I was seven, so if I were to do it now - I'd pick someone a little more obtainable: Like Miss May, 2006.

('Half full' refers to half a six pack - right? Or was that a deck of cards? I get sooo confused sometimes.)


----------



## jheda

jaywdetroit said:


> Talk about coming out of right field...
> 
> Um - I do have a 'half-full' mentality about many things. But the last time I talked to Carmen she made it explicitly clear that things could not continue as they were. So naturally... my Realist assumed she meant DLBs were coming to the HR20 soon. I may be an optimist - but I am not so stupid as to assume she was talking about our secret meetings.
> 
> On a more serious note: Carmen Electra? The last time I sent a letter to a celebrity was when I was seven, so if I were to do it now - I'd pick someone a little more obtainable: Like Miss May, 2006.
> 
> ('Half full' refers to half a six pack - right? Or was that a deck of cards? I get sooo confused sometimes.)


shakira called me ....DLB is on the way:lol:

"I never use the redial button on my home phone....but my idealist would be damn shocked to buy a phone without redial functionality...."

couldnt have said it better myself!!!


----------



## tiger2005

jaywdetroit said:


> Talk about coming out of right field...
> 
> Um - I do have a 'half-full' mentality about many things. But the last time I talked to Carmen she made it explicitly clear that things could not continue as they were. So naturally... my Realist assumed she meant DLBs were coming to the HR20 soon. I may be an optimist - but I am not so stupid as to assume she was talking about our secret meetings.
> 
> On a more serious note: Carmen Electra? The last time I sent a letter to a celebrity was when I was seven, so if I were to do it now - I'd pick someone a little more obtainable: Like Miss May, 2006.
> 
> ('Half full' refers to half a six pack - right? Or was that a deck of cards? I get sooo confused sometimes.)


I'm sorry to break this to you, but I think Carmen has moved on to another guy. She is stalking a guy in Taco Bell commercials.


----------



## jaywdetroit

tiger2005 said:


> I'm sorry to break this to you, but I think Carmen has moved on to another guy. She is stalking a guy in Taco Bell commercials.


hmmmm...

Well he obviously has some vital information about DLBs and she is willing to stalk him to get that info for us.


----------



## SuperTech1

tiger2005 said:


> I'm sorry to break this to you, but I think Carmen has moved on to another guy. She is stalking a guy in Taco Bell commercials.





jaywdetroit said:


> hmmmm...
> 
> Well he obviously has some vital information about DLBs and she is willing to stalk him to get that info for us.


Hmmm... Carmen Electra 
CE 
coincidence? I wonder.....


----------



## sbray

mikewolf13 said:


> I do not have a problem about asking or wanting DLB..Be a squeaky wheel.
> 
> What I do not understand is the assumption it will in fact happena nd that the timetable is within a mater of weeks.
> 
> An UPGRADE by definition does not mean "every feature as before plus more" the improved features were outlined in marketing and press releases.
> 
> My Realist agrees with yours that they have nothing to gain by announcing you will not get DLB. My realist interprets the silence as just that...you seem to think that means they are bringing you DLB but quietly as to not increase expectations.
> 
> Earl's silence on a date...my realist thinks that is because as they don't even know how to implement it, any possible implementation is months away. His silence is becuase he has no new concrete information
> 
> Your realist apparently thinks Earl is being coy and knows a date but can't tell.
> 
> My realist thinks your realist is an unbridaled optimist who probably thinks that Carmen Electra doesn't respond to my letters cause she really wants me and is playing hard-to-get.
> 
> My idealist, hopes your realist is right. It makes no sense to me why they did not design with DLB. if you don't use it, fine, if you don't like it don't use it...
> 
> I never use the redial button on my home phone....but my idealist would be damn shocked to buy a phone without redial functionality....
> 
> As far as "promises", I think we all know that DTV CSRs are not reliable sources of information particularly about future products or features...and reliance on their "promises" is fool's gold.


Upgrade by convention should incorporate existing features and functionality unless explicitly removing those features and functionality. Unless D* has documented that they intentionally removed this function then they should be held accountable to have this function at release time. Otherwise this is a Beta product that no one should be required to pay for or in other words it is not fully baked and should be sold as a limited functionality product. This is standard Product Release Mgmt process.


----------



## robnaud

tfederov said:


> Maybe we can think of the HR20 like pulling off a band-aid. Not having dual buffers for us that LOVE IT may hurt for a bit but that pain will go away and we will feel much better in the long run?


Yes, I think the pain will go away. I too used the dual buffers to watch sports, especially March Madness. However, I can't count the number of times that I would sit down to watch something and find a movie/show playing on the active tuner that I really wanted to watch, but it started 30+ minutes ago. Personally, I would like to have one step further than dual tuners - dual outputs! That way I could drive PIP or 2 TV's with one box during March Madness of course!


----------



## jaywdetroit

This is post 500 for me.

I can't think of a better place to put it than "the" DLB thread.

Here are some useless "500" fun facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_(number)


----------



## GregM5

Hi everybody, newbie here!

I just found out about DBStalk this week from the D*tv retention person that helped with my HR20 order. No dual buffers... dang, that is going to be tough to live without. I don't even get my HR20's installed until the 23rd and now I am bumming! I love that feature with the HR10-250's. I am replacing 2 HR10-250's with the HR20's. Since I own the HR10's is it possible to have both hooked up and just pay the fee for the extra receivers?


----------



## NFLnut

GregM5 said:


> Since I own the HR10's is it possible to have both hooked up and just pay the fee for the extra receivers?


You won't pay a leasing fee, but you WILL have to pay an extra receiver fee for each, which is essentially the same thing!

If you're a sports fan, you WILL miss the Live buffers! I suffered through NFL season without it, and now trying to watch the 500 and the freeview of Hotpass channels is more than annoying without DLB's!


----------



## SuperTech1

GregM5 said:


> Hi everybody, newbie here!
> 
> I just found out about DBStalk this week from the D*tv retention person that helped with my HR20 order. No dual buffers... dang, that is going to be tough to live without. I don't even get my HR20's installed until the 23rd and now I am bumming! I love that feature with the HR10-250's. I am replacing 2 HR10-250's with the HR20's. Since I own the HR10's is it possible to have both hooked up and just pay the fee for the extra receivers?


:welcome_s

It's nice to hear that D* is promoting DBStalk. While it's true that the HR20 doesn't currently have DLB it is high on our wishlist (#1 I believe!).
Check out the HR20 Information Resources forum for a ton of great information, and again, Welcome!

Edit.
Yes you can have both types of DVR's hooked up simultaneously.


----------



## n3ntj

SuperTech1 said:


> It's nice to hear that D* is promoting DBStalk. While it's true that the HR20 doesn't currently have DLB it is high on our wishlist (#1 I believe!).


Too bad it appears DLB isn't high on D*'s priority list.:lol:


----------



## robncindi

OK, haven't had time to read this entire thread but my opinion is that dual buffers is a must have! 

Case in point, tonight we were watching Amazing race, not recording it but watching it 'buffered' about 15 minutes behind live, since it was running behind because of some silly nascar race on tv today. At 8:00 PM I switched channels to see what was going to be on another channel instead of looking in the guide (not thinking) and when I switched back to the amazing race I had lost the buffer. 

Before with the D* Tivo and dual buffers I wouldn't have lost the place I was at and would have been able to continue on watching where I left off when I switched tuners. But because we don't have dual buffers or the ability to switch tuners and keep the other tuner buffered you can't jump from one show to antother without putting some thought into your channel surfing...I know this sounds a bit lazy but we were 'trained' with the d*Tivo and learned to love this feature.


----------



## NFLnut

Heck .. as much as I also think that DLB's are a must-have, I would first just like to be able to FF and REW without the damn think locking up for 5-20 seconds and then when it finally "un-freezes" I am WAY past the point I wanted to FF/REW to! I would also like to be able to FF through commercials and NOT have it jump farther forward when I come out of FF by pressing the IR button 4 times (it SHOULD jump BACKward!)

Every time I watch a show, live or recorded on this damn thing, I find myself longing for my old DSR6000 (Series 1 DirecTiVo). Navigating on the TiVo is a dream compared to this thing! It also FF's/REW's linearly so you can stop perfectly at the beginning of the segment you wanted to get to!


----------



## GregM5

NFLnut said:


> If you're a sports fan, you WILL miss the Live buffers! I suffered through NFL season without it, and now trying to watch the 500 and the freeview of Hotpass channels is more than annoying without DLB's!


You are right about that. I used the DLB's all the time last season. Actually, I use it quite often when I am watching anything live. Last night I was bouncing back and forth between Golf and the news. On the other hand, my wife has never used the DLB's.


----------



## GregM5

SuperTech1 said:


> :welcome_s
> 
> It's nice to hear that D* is promoting DBStalk. While it's true that the HR20 doesn't currently have DLB it is high on our wishlist (#1 I believe!).
> Check out the HR20 Information Resources forum for a ton of great information, and again, Welcome!
> 
> Edit.
> Yes you can have both types of DVR's hooked up simultaneously.


Thanks SuperTech.

I'm glad I found out about this forum. Looks like I have a LOT of reading to do

...of course after reading about some of the problems with the HR20 I am starting to wonder if I jumped the gun - not that I wasn't having problems with the HR10-250's.


----------



## n3ntj

robncindi said:


> OK, haven't had time to read this entire thread but my opinion is that dual buffers is a must have!
> 
> Case in point, tonight we were watching Amazing race, not recording it but watching it 'buffered' about 15 minutes behind live, since it was running behind because of some silly nascar race on tv today. At 8:00 PM I switched channels to see what was going to be on another channel instead of looking in the guide (not thinking) and when I switched back to the amazing race I had lost the buffer.
> 
> Before with the D* Tivo and dual buffers I wouldn't have lost the place I was at and would have been able to continue on watching where I left off when I switched tuners. But because we don't have dual buffers or the ability to switch tuners and keep the other tuner buffered you can't jump from one show to antother without putting some thought into your channel surfing...I know this sounds a bit lazy but we were 'trained' with the d*Tivo and learned to love this feature.


I know how you feel.. I've done the same thing without thinking (since I was trained by the Tivo) and get stung by losing the buffer. It's a real pain when watching two sporting events at once (like hockey)..and will continue when trying to follow two baseball games this spring. Remember the old 'I want my MTV' saying from the early 80s?... well, "I want my Dual Live Buffers!".


----------



## raott

I hope that D* took notice of all the excitement that surrounded the latest CE build when people thought (incorrectly) that the new feature coming in that build just might be DLB's.

Hopefully, when things get stable, DLBs get moved off the "still being considered" list and gets implemented.


----------



## DblD_Indy

NFLnut said:


> If you're a sports fan, you WILL miss the Live buffers! I suffered through NFL season without it, and now trying to watch the 500 and the freeview of Hotpass channels is more than annoying without DLB's!


You are so right and for some reason every time i switched back to the race from the hotpass the race would start over from the beginning seeing I was recording the race.

That really sucked!


----------



## sangweb

Love the feature, I just received my new HR20 and that was one of the thing I was looking for... good thing I still have my hr10, I probably send the hr20 back since I like my hr10 better.


----------



## pasinfw

First time posting been reading since last year when I obtained my HR20. I kept my older D*TIVO units as DLB is a must have for me. For my family the HR20 is nothing more than a recorder for HD content. It will never be our primary PVR without DLB and I will always be looking at other hardware/providers if D* doesn't implement DLB.

So sad that what may become the premier provider of HD content put out a second rate PVR. Hopefully they will get the point and make the change sooner than later.

TIVO user for at least 10 years (can't remember its been so long)
2 Hughes GXCEBOTD | 1 HR20 (hopefully some day I can say I am proud to own it)


----------



## Que

1289 votes!


----------



## jheda

thanks for your persitince que. We get new "members" every week, and as this is not a sticky, the bumb is appreciated. Again, when i switched to my hr20 i didnt even know what a DLB was, i just know i missed the feature!!!!!


----------



## fury88

Hello everyone. I am brand new to this forum but certainly not brand new to DirecTV or Tivo. Unfortunately I do not own the HR20 yet but my Brother-in-law just switched over and its taking me some getting used to. I was extremely disappointed that there was not dual-tuner buffering. He didn't know it existed so he's not seeing its benefits but I am totally going to be bummed once I have to switch and watch the sports subscriptions. I am going to have to log my complaint and highly request this feature in the future. It's a MUST have!


----------



## Tom Robertson

fury88 said:


> Hello everyone. I am brand new to this forum but certainly not brand new to DirecTV or Tivo. Unfortunately I do not own the HR20 yet but my Brother-in-law just switched over and its taking me some getting used to. I was extremely disappointed that there was not dual-tuner buffering. He didn't know it existed so he's not seeing its benefits but I am totally going to be bummed once I have to switch and watch the sports subscriptions. I am going to have to log my complaint and highly request this feature in the future. It's a MUST have!


Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

May you get an HR20 very soon and may it have DLB on day one for you...(and us, of course!) 
Tom


----------



## funhouse69

Hi everyone - I've been checking out this site for a while and finally decided to join. I've been a very happy DTV (Direct TV) customer for many, many years. I tried to switch to DTV HD and they offered me the free upgrade to the 5LNB Dish but when the tech came out he said that they couldn't get line of site. Because of this I ended up going to cable for their HD Channels and even then I could not let go of DTV. I kept them both for a while then tried DTV once again. Well long story short they've since been out again and although this tech did get line of site after 5+ hours he left me with a completed dead system because he didn't know how to wire up a multi-switch. I ended up hooking everything up only to be missing HD Premium Channels eventually after another tech visit I was up and running. 

With this upgrade I went from SD Direct TiVO's to the new HR20-700 I'm glad I'm getting in to the game now that a lot of the issues have been worked out. I will say that from the moment I got it I was trying to figure out how to access the second tuner or as it is seemed to be referred to here as the DLB. Only when I found this site did I find out to my dismay that this feature wasn't available on this new unit. 

I've been doing usability studies for a major triple play provider for years and I have to say that it seems like someone didn't do their homework when they released this unit without this feature. It does seem like it is a work in progress for some reason. Originally I thought that it might have been an issue with licensing or something but then I remembered even the DVR I got from my cable company had DLB so that didn't make sense. 

With all this in mind I immediately started looking for an HD Direct TiVO and was ready to get one off e-bay only to find out that I wouldn't be able to get my locals in HD as they are MPEG4 and they do not support that. I've also been told that any of the new channels that they will be adding hopefully by Q3 or Q4 will most likely be MPEG 4 so that was out. 

Does anyone know how high of a priority this is? Do we have any kind of a possible ETA are we talking weeks / months / maybe someday or not going to happen? I know that things like this can certainly be a moving target but this seems to me that it should have been / should now be Level 1 Priority. Based on the feedback I've seen here I'm certainly not alone. 

Don't get me wrong the HR20-700 seems to have a ton of potential. I do like that the eSATA port works. Even though I've had my unit for less than a week I've already connected a 500GB Segate to it and it works perfect. I was also able to connect the system to my network and had the system "Connect to Direct TV" but said that the feature doesn't do anything yet  Hopefully that will also be resolved soon. 

My biggest problem is that the person that I spoke to when I order this new DVR told me that the functionality was the same as my old TiVO's but is now a Direct TV brand instead. TO be fair I didn't specifically / never thought to ask if it has DLB. Since I used this feature since the day I got my first DTV DVR I can't imagine TV without it. I would hope that others get better informed as to what they are or aren't getting in the future. 

Keep up the great work everyone this is a very informative site that I will certainly frequent!


----------



## richlife

All anyone can really say is, "Don't give up hope and be sure to complete the HR20 Wish List ( http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80600 ) to help keep DLB in the D* "collective conscience". I'm sure you'll get a lot of hints and rumors in response (even Earl isn't immune to tossing them out -- the "Hint Master"). And while we're on the topic, why don't we just say "hope it's DLB by April Fool"!



funhouse69 said:


> Hi everyone - I've been checking out this site for a while and finally decided to join. I've been a very happy DTV (Direct TV) customer for many, many years. I tried to switch to DTV HD and they offered me the free upgrade to the 5LNB Dish but when the tech came out he said that they couldn't get line of site. Because of this I ended up going to cable for their HD Channels and even then I could not let go of DTV. I kept them both for a while then tried DTV once again. Well long story short they've since been out again and although this tech did get line of site after 5+ hours he left me with a completed dead system because he didn't know how to wire up a multi-switch. I ended up hooking everything up only to be missing HD Premium Channels eventually after another tech visit I was up and running.
> 
> With this upgrade I went from SD Direct TiVO's to the new HR20-700 I'm glad I'm getting in to the game now that a lot of the issues have been worked out. I will say that from the moment I got it I was trying to figure out how to access the second tuner or as it is seemed to be referred to here as the DLB. Only when I found this site did I find out to my dismay that this feature wasn't available on this new unit.
> 
> I've been doing usability studies for a major triple play provider for years and I have to say that it seems like someone didn't do their homework when they released this unit without this feature. It does seem like it is a work in progress for some reason. Originally I thought that it might have been an issue with licensing or something but then I remembered even the DVR I got from my cable company had DLB so that didn't make sense.
> 
> With all this in mind I immediately started looking for an HD Direct TiVO and was ready to get one off e-bay only to find out that I wouldn't be able to get my locals in HD as they are MPEG4 and they do not support that. I've also been told that any of the new channels that they will be adding hopefully by Q3 or Q4 will most likely be MPEG 4 so that was out.
> 
> Does anyone know how high of a priority this is? Do we have any kind of a possible ETA are we talking weeks / months / maybe someday or not going to happen? I know that things like this can certainly be a moving target but this seems to me that it should have been / should now be Level 1 Priority. Based on the feedback I've seen here I'm certainly not alone.
> 
> Don't get me wrong the HR20-700 seems to have a ton of potential. I do like that the eSATA port works. Even though I've had my unit for less than a week I've already connected a 500GB Segate to it and it works perfect. I was also able to connect the system to my network and had the system "Connect to Direct TV" but said that the feature doesn't do anything yet  Hopefully that will also be resolved soon.
> 
> My biggest problem is that the person that I spoke to when I order this new DVR told me that the functionality was the same as my old TiVO's but is now a Direct TV brand instead. TO be fair I didn't specifically / never thought to ask if it has DLB. Since I used this feature since the day I got my first DTV DVR I can't imagine TV without it. I would hope that others get better informed as to what they are or aren't getting in the future.
> 
> Keep up the great work everyone this is a very informative site that I will certainly frequent!


----------



## hr20manray

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Obviously you have not bought a washer or dryer in the past year or so....even Maytag has reduced their warranties down to 1 year. :eek2:
> 
> "My HR20 has never lost an SD or HD scheduled recording, dropped any audio, had amny playback problems, or failed to do any commands I asked (jump, roll over, beg).


Really? When did you purchase your HR20?


----------



## Que

A must have! 1007 74.76%
Don't really care about it. 85 6.31%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 255 18.93%

Voters: 1347


----------



## Que

Just a bump for all the new people.


----------



## tonycrf

I think that a lot of people who say dual live buffers isn't important have never used the feature on a TiVo before (I'm ready for the FLAMES). Being able to switch between 2 channels with one click of the remote is a critical feature that we DON'T have. I have not upgraded my Tivo in my bedroom to the HR20 because of the lack of this feature. 

Recording 2 shows and switching between them is not a good substitue. Again with TiVo all you do is hit the down arrow and you're on the other tuner with the buffer. SIMPLE. You can hit pause/play to keep current with the other programming, etc...


----------



## qwertyasd

I just switched from a DSR6000 to an HDR20 and I'm going nuts. I can't believe dual buffers is not a feature. Has D* addressed this issue? Do they have a stand on it?

I really can't live without it. Usually I watch one show on one channel and surf around on the other. The only time I lost the buffer was when I would accidentally hit channel down instead of volume down.


----------



## bigpuma

qwertyasd said:


> I just switched from a DSR6000 to an HDR20 and I'm going nuts. I can't believe dual buffers is not a feature. Has D* addressed this issue? Do they have a stand on it?
> 
> I really can't live without it. Usually I watch one show on one channel and surf around on the other. The only time I lost the buffer was when I would accidentally hit channel down instead of volume down.


I find I have adjusted my viewing habits to not having DLBs. I used to do the same thing watching one show while flipping around channels but now I rarely watch a show that wasn't pre-recorded. The only time I miss DLBs is when there are 2 sporting events on at the same time that I want to watch.


----------



## NickD

HI everyone I am new here. I have been lurking for a while and have finally decided to join.

My thoughts on DLB is that it is a mandatory feature that should have never been omitted. When I hear the words upgrade that means improvements to the existing system. This is a step back in functionality. Of course their loophole is that this is their system not TIVO's.

I am not a sports fan at all, I do not watch sports at all but I used DLB on a regular basis. There were countless times that I would flip back and forth between channels. There were also plenty of times that I would find something on one the tuners that I would end up recording. This of course was a show that I did NOT know was on( so I could not set to record) or something that I found interesting enough to record and watch later. Most times the 30 minute buffer was adequate but of course I would love a longer buffer with DLB . As others have happen, I have been burned and lost the buffer when I changed the channel forgettiing which box I was watching! I have kept my DVR40 hooked up as well as adding the HR20 just in case something doesn't record properly.


----------



## Tiebmbr

:welcome_s Nick!

Let me just be the 2,000,000th poster on the thread to add my opinion to this matter of DLB...

Isn't this a patent owned exclusively by Tivo? Isn't this whole argument like PC owners complaining they can't run OSX? 

From here on out D* and Tivo are competitors in this field...so I think if you want DLB, you've GOTTA a have Tivo.:nono: 

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Why do people continue to think DLB is a TiVo patent...
If anyone can find a source for that... please let me know... as I would like to correct them.

Dual Live Buffering is not patent by TiVo.


----------



## Tiebmbr

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why do people continue to think DLB is a TiVo patent...
> If anyone can find a source for that... please let me know... as I would like to correct them.
> 
> Dual Live Buffering is not patent by TiVo.


I'm trying to look back trough some online articles here...there were, I believe, several patents on TiVo techonolgy which have been mainstays on the D*TiVo boxes which are now off limits....I'm trying to locate them as I type this.

Am I not correct on this?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tiebmbr said:


> I'm trying to look back trough some online articles here...there were, I believe, several patents on TiVo techonolgy which have been mainstays on the D*TiVo boxes which are now off limits....I'm trying to locate them as I type this.
> 
> Am I not correct on this?


Yes, there are plenty of things that TiVo has patents on (such as AutoCorrection).

But Dual Live buffering is not one of them.


----------



## Tiebmbr

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, there are plenty of things that TiVo has patents on (such as AutoCorrection).
> 
> But Dual Live buffering is not one of them.


I somehow seemed to think it wasn't the issue of acually buffering the information on the other tuner, but the ability to live switch between the two...

You're right, autocorrection is patented by TiVo, and it was a nice little feature.

I'm still looking....gotta get my info straight.


----------



## Tiebmbr

Tiebmbr said:


> I'm still looking....gotta get my info straight.


So...I find no hard evidence to support my claim of exclusive patent on DLB, so I'll back off it. I know that I had read otherwise, though, from somewhere other than this forum!:bang

As you were.


----------



## sunking

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why do people continue to think DLB is a TiVo patent...
> If anyone can find a source for that... please let me know... as I would like to correct them.
> 
> Dual Live Buffering is not patent by TiVo.


I think because it's the only rational explanation to being forced to downgrade your hardware in order to upgrade your service.

In a way its giving D* the benefit of the doubt that they aren't just inept.


----------



## jheda

OK Earl, i have been silent for a month or 2 on this, but my bimonthly question is; how does DLB stand on D's radar, especially in light of the great stability the hr20 has reached today?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> OK Earl, i have been silent for a month or 2 on this, but my bimonthly question is; how does DLB stand on D's radar, especially in light of the great stability the hr20 has reached today?


It beeps... but not sure at what part of the radius of the radar it is at.
(Aka... nothing has changed from the information that I have been given)


----------



## jheda

Thanks for your honesty and immediate update; the polite yet squeeky wheels of jaywdetroit, sockmonkey, myself and et.al roll foward.....


----------



## jaywdetroit

jheda said:


> Thanks for your honesty and immediate update; the polite yet squeeky wheels of jaywdetroit, sockmonkey, myself and et.al roll foward.....


My patience on hearing something about this feature is frankly wearing thin. Not that anything notable would actually happen if my patience "wears out". Until there is a viable alternative, I'm stuck where I am.

I have not made the "adjustment" to live tv. I simply don't watch it anymore - except for sports, and even then I almost always pause the game and walk away for 15 minutes.

I've been relatively quiet on this issue because it is obvious that this issue, for some reason, goes against the trend of responsiveness D* has recently shown to customer input on this box. They simply are not going to say anything - and the funny thing is, thats what I'm going to remember in the end. They are responding to all this input on this board, like I've never seen any company do, save for this one issue - they have not thrown us so much as a bone on it.

I think that really s343Cks. And frankly, at this point, I really could care less whether their resolution was to make an announcement not to expect the feature for a year or two. At this point they owe us that.

Now - one can speculate that perhaps they have run into some kind of technical issue implementing this feature. I think if they came out and said that - everyone would be MUCH more understanding about this issue. After all - knowing they are trying to implement it, rather than ignoring us, would go a long way toward good feelings on the customer end.

I am truly happy that D* has found a niche and a way to become Ultra Responsive to customer input. But they remain silent on the ONE ISSUE that for many people, is the BIGGEST ISSUE on this box. And in the end - all the responsiveness in the world, won't replace an extremely important missing feature. Good intentions or not.

TELL US SOMETHING MEANINGFUL ON THIS ISSUE D*. So we can move on.


----------



## tonycrf

Earl Bonovich said:


> It beeps... but not sure at what part of the radius of the radar it is at.
> (Aka... nothing has changed from the information that I have been given)


Are you kidding me? It's not a patent issue? I thought the whole reason we didn't have it was because of patent issues. I know of numerous people that aren't giving up their TiVo's because of this feature. It should be a top priority!! And, hopefully they implement it as nicely as TiVo.

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


----------



## oenophile

It sure would be nice if they put DLB in prior to the NFL season.....

That's really where I'm going to miss it.


----------



## lakerholic

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, there are plenty of things that TiVo has patents on (such as AutoCorrection).
> 
> But Dual Live buffering is not one of them.


Earl - I've seen you say this (about AutoCorrection) on a few occassions... but why, then, does my dad's high-def DVR from Time Warner (non-TiVo) have autocorrection?

Is it that DirecTV doesn't want to anger TiVo or is there another way around this that DirecTv hasn't thought of/maybe is working on?

It's very difficult (if not impossible) at FF 3x or 4x to skip to where you want to go w/o this feature.

Sorry for sending this off topic...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lakerholic said:


> Earl - I've seen you say this (about AutoCorrection) on a few occassions... but why, then, does my dad's high-def DVR from Time Warner (non-TiVo) have autocorrection?
> 
> Is it that DirecTV doesn't want to anger TiVo or is there another way around this that DirecTv hasn't thought of/maybe is working on?
> 
> It's very difficult (if not impossible) at FF 3x or 4x to skip to where you want to go w/o this feature.
> 
> Sorry for sending this off topic...


I don't have an answer for you...
It could be as simple as Time Warner doesn't respect the patent, they think it wouldn't stand up in court, or they found a way that is not covered by TiVo's patent.

We have hashed it over a few times... The general consensus is that TiVo's patent is pretty detailed and covers most ways of doing it.


----------



## Kapeman

Has TiVo ever successfully defended the autocorrect patent in court?

I can't recall the details of their suit against E*, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of the issues.

Again, I have to say that you can patent a _method _ for doing something, but you can't patent the _idea_ of doing something.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...wait, I forgot where I was posting for a second!!!


----------



## sshams95

This thread is now on page 23. I want DLB and I won't switch to the HR20 until it offers it. That being said, is this the only forum for us to voice our opinions? What are our other options? Who can we call or email at DTV to voice our opinion? There has to be some other ways in addition to this forum to help further this cause.


----------



## jaywdetroit

sshams95 said:


> This thread is now on page 23. I want DLB and I won't switch to the HR20 until it offers it. That being said, is this the only forum for us to voice our opinions? What are our other options? Who can we call or email at DTV to voice our opinion? There has to be some other ways in addition to this forum to help further this cause.


You could always call and complain to one of the CSRs! LOL! Good Luck!

As for the Auto-correction patent - I am under the impression that D* and TIVO hashed out an agreement that there will be no patent lawsuits during the contract to support the current TIVO DVRs. Or - something to this effect.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> You could always call and complain to one of the CSRs! LOL! Good Luck!
> 
> As for the Auto-correction patent - I am under the impression that D* and TIVO hashed out an agreement that there will be no patent lawsuits during the contract to support the current TIVO DVRs. Or - something to this effect.


In that same extension....

The agreement was also not to knowling infringe on other patents.


----------



## Clint Lamor

Kapeman said:


> Has TiVo ever successfully defended the autocorrect patent in court?
> 
> I can't recall the details of their suit against E*, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of the issues.
> 
> Again, I have to say that you can patent a _method _ for doing something, but you can't patent the _idea_ of doing something.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong...wait, I forgot where I was posting for a second!!!


Well to be honest if you word the patent correctly and you cover enough bases on it then you can pretty cover all aspects of ever being able to do it. It may not be right but it is law.


----------



## jheda

jaywdetroit said:


> My patience on hearing something about this feature is frankly wearing thin. Not that anything notable would actually happen if my patience "wears out". Until there is a viable alternative, I'm stuck where I am.
> 
> I have not made the "adjustment" to live tv. I simply don't watch it anymore - except for sports, and even then I almost always pause the game and walk away for 15 minutes.
> 
> I've been relatively quiet on this issue because it is obvious that this issue, for some reason, goes against the trend of responsiveness D* has recently shown to customer input on this box. They simply are not going to say anything - and the funny thing is, thats what I'm going to remember in the end. They are responding to all this input on this board, like I've never seen any company do, save for this one issue - they have not thrown us so much as a bone on it.
> 
> I think that really s343Cks. And frankly, at this point, I really could care less whether their resolution was to make an announcement not to expect the feature for a year or two. At this point they owe us that.
> 
> Now - one can speculate that perhaps they have run into some kind of technical issue implementing this feature. I think if they came out and said that - everyone would be MUCH more understanding about this issue. After all - knowing they are trying to implement it, rather than ignoring us, would go a long way toward good feelings on the customer end.
> 
> I am truly happy that D* has found a niche and a way to become Ultra Responsive to customer input. But they remain silent on the ONE ISSUE that for many people, is the BIGGEST ISSUE on this box. And in the end - all the responsiveness in the world, won't replace an extremely important missing feature. Good intentions or not.
> 
> TELL US SOMETHING MEANINGFUL ON THIS ISSUE D*. So we can move on.


+1 Great post JayW....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Kapeman said:


> Has TiVo ever successfully defended the autocorrect patent in court?
> 
> I can't recall the details of their suit against E*, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of the issues.
> 
> Again, I have to say that you can patent a _method _ for doing something, but you can't patent the _idea_ of doing something.
> 
> Please correct me if I'm wrong...wait, I forgot where I was posting for a second!!!


The TiVo Patent regarding autocorrection

You are correct, you can't patent an IDEA... just the methods of implementation.


----------



## tfederov

jheda said:


> +1 Great post JayW....


I have to go with jheda and JayW on this one..... D*'s been pretty responsive with our issues, but a lack of going one way or another with an answer on DLB and where it ranks with them is getting pretty frustrating.


----------



## Tiebmbr

Earl Bonovich said:


> The TiVo Patent regarding autocorrection
> 
> You are correct, you can't patent an IDEA... just the methods of implementation.


Is there anything contained amidst these reams of legal jargon about DLB?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tiebmbr said:


> Is there anything contained amidst these reams of legal jargon about DLB?


Nope... at least not that one.


----------



## Tiebmbr

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nope... at least not that one.


...just trying to get us back on topic, and away from autocorrection...(I'm making attonement for past sins!:sure: )


----------



## jheda

tfederov said:


> I have to go with jheda and JayW on this one..... D*'s been pretty responsive with our issues, but a lack of going one way or another with an answer on DLB and where it ranks with them is getting pretty frustrating.


Earls doing all he can as a conduit. It is time for D* to step up and update this issue for us. I think we are owed that.....


----------



## tfederov

jheda said:


> Earls doing all he can as a conduit. It is time for D* to step up and update this issue for us. I think we are owed that.....


My comments weren't a slam on Earl and I hope he didn't take it that way. But like you said, at least they (D*) can update the issue one way or another.


----------



## jaywdetroit

tfederov said:


> My comments weren't a slam on Earl and I hope he didn't take it that way. But like you said, at least they (D*) can update the issue one way or another.


+1

I am pretty sure Earl knows we are not calling him out on this - but for everyone else out there - my comments are directed to D* not Earl. I didn't even think to point that out, but I suppose the less frequent visitors out there could misconstrue this.

I'm pretty sure if D* came to Earl and said - hey its up to you - tell them they are getting DLBs when you see fit. Earl would not be able to resist dropping all kinds of hints until someone figured it out. And he would be thrilled to tell us.

Then again - I have at times seen a harmless, but diabolical streak in him. :icon_an:


----------



## tiger2005

tfederov said:


> I have to go with jheda and JayW on this one..... D*'s been pretty responsive with our issues, but a lack of going one way or another with an answer on DLB and where it ranks with them is getting pretty frustrating.


Not only is it getting frustrating, but its beginning to become totally obsurd. Its not like we are asking for DLB to be released in a new firmware version tomorrow, which would be nice BUT we would just like to know, one way or the other, if the HR20 will ever include DLB. :nono2::nono2:

Earl, do you know if D* has started/in the process of/finished evaluating whether this is possible on this box?


----------



## Tiebmbr

jaywdetroit said:


> +1
> 
> I am pretty sure Earl knows we are not calling him out on this - but for everyone else out there - my comments are directed to D* not Earl. I didn't even think to point that out, but I suppose the less frequent visitors out there could misconstrue this.
> 
> I'm pretty sure if D* came to Earl and said - hey its up to you - tell them they are getting DLBs when you see fit. Earl would not be able to resist dropping all kinds of hints until someone figured it out. And he would be thrilled to tell us.
> 
> Then again - I have at times seen a harmless, but diabolical streak in him. :icon_an:


Yes...but if Earl REALLY loved us, then we'd have DLB already...:lol:


----------



## Kapeman

Earl Bonovich said:


> The TiVo Patent regarding autocorrection
> 
> You are correct, you can't patent an IDEA... just the methods of implementation.


Thanks for the response, Earl!

This looks pretty daunting, but we still don't know how well this would stand up in court, provided someone was to invent their own mechanism for accomplishing this.

Sorry for the hijack.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jaywdetroit said:


> My patience on hearing something about this feature is frankly wearing thin. Not that anything notable would actually happen if my patience "wears out". Until there is a viable alternative, I'm stuck where I am.
> 
> TELL US SOMETHING MEANINGFUL ON THIS ISSUE D*. So we can move on.


I totaly agree with you. D* needs to say something...anything.

*All of the following is just IMHO with nothing to back it up so get out your salt shakers.*

D*'s silence on the subject is very telling. D* has had more problems with getting the single live buffer working let alone getting to DLB. This is why they haven't addressed DLB. They know that current buffer doesn't work correctly so both are out of the question. _They can't get the basics right._ *Without a working live buffer the HR20 is little more than a cable box and a HD VCR.*
:soapbox: 
*FIX THE LIVE BUFFER*

Sorry about the rant.

Mike

*Edited for perspective*
I think the HR20 has such great potential. There is much I like about it over my previous Tivo units. I'm in no way advocating that I, or anyone else, dump the HR20. For the most part, I haven't taken a stand on any aspect of the unit and only post the occasional question/comment. However, I really believe that the *Live Buffer*, single or dual, is the most important aspect of the HR20 and needs D*'s attention. Everything beyond *Live Buffers* are (for the most part anyway) nice to haves.

*FIX THE LIVE BUFFER*


----------



## Mike P

*MicroBeta*: You are a very wise person. Nice post. 



MicroBeta said:


> I totaly agree with you. D* needs to say something...anything.
> 
> *All of the following is just IMHO with nothing to back it up so get out your salt shakers.*
> 
> D*'s silence on the subject is very telling. D* has had more problems with getting the single live buffer working let alone getting to DLB. This is why they haven't addressed DLB. They know that current buffer doesn't work correctly so both are out of the question. _They can't get the basics right._ *Without a working live buffer the HR20 is little more than a cable box and a HD VCR.*
> :soapbox:
> *FIX THE LIVE BUFFER*
> 
> Sorry about the rant.
> 
> Mike
> 
> *Edited for perspective*
> I think the HR20 has such great potential. There is much I like about it over my previous Tivo units. I'm in no way advocating that I, or anyone else, dump the HR20. For the most part, I haven't taken a stand on any aspect of the unit and only post the occasional question/comment. However, I really believe that the *Live Buffer*, single or dual, is the most important aspect of the HR20 and needs D*'s attention. Everything beyond *Live Buffers* are (for the most part anyway) nice to haves.
> 
> *FIX THE LIVE BUFFER*


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Mike P said:


> *MicroBeta*: You are a very wise person. Nice post.


Some might say cynical....but thanks.

Mike


----------



## guenther

I'm getting my -700 installed tomorrow and not having dual buffers (and no ability to share programs between it and my Tivos) is my main fear. I'm not sure that I will ever actually be able to "get over it" because I use the dual buffers so much. +1 for dual buffers!!!


----------



## richlife

Until reading these recent DLB posts, I really hadn't noticed that my viewing habits have changed any -- it's an insidious change that I find both disturbing and unpleasant. I used to watch live tv multiple times a day. Now the only live tv I see is ESPN HD in the morning and that only because it's at times reasonably interesting. I typically watch this while doing something else like email, forums, etc.

I used to bounce back and forth between the live buffers, roam the news, check on what's playing that I hadn't noticed and generally enjoy watching tv that was up-to-date rather than what is recorded.

Now almost all my viewing is recordings which means that I have a much narrower set of programs -- I only watch what I have been watching rather than discovering new sources or just programs I hadn't found in a Search (which, of course, I found because I know of it).

I call this insidious, because the change in habit is limiting yet I didn't notice as the limitation has grown over time because I don't have DLB to be able to FEEL the difference. I can really see why someone with a DLB unit would not want to "upgrade" to the HR20 since they would lose the feature.

*I WANT MY DLB!*

:joy: :dance01: :joy: :dance01: :joy:


----------



## apollosmith

I just wanted to check in as a new user and indicate my ABSOLUTE FRUSTRATION with the lack of DLB on the HR-20. I just got it yesterday and will need to make a decision very quickly if I'm going to jump ship to Comcast. I'm very frustrated with the HR20's usability and bugs and lack of DLB really is a deal breaker for me.

My other option is to connect an older Tivo to the same TV and simply switch input sources, but that should not have to be a possibility when the HR20 seems perfectly capable of this functionality. At a very minimum, you MUST add the ability to maintain pause points when switching between recorded programs. Did D* do no user testing on this thing?!?

DirecTV, if you are listening, please note yet another customer that is likely to jump ship over the DLB!


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I still remember being a beta tester back when the D* Tivo was first implementing dual tuners. My family went giddy after we found out exactly what dual live buffers represented. 

I'll be switching to the HR20 next week, and I too fear lack of DLB this more than anything else. It's absolutely needed for sports - NFLST is almost useless (once you've lived with DLB for years) without it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I still remember being a beta tester back when the D* Tivo was first implementing dual tuners. My family went giddy after we found out exactly what dual live buffers represented.
> 
> I'll be switching to the HR20 next week, and I too fear lack of DLB this more than anything else. It's absolutely needed for sports - NFLST is almost useless (once you've lived with DLB for years) without it.


Interesting.....

Did it work right off?

What sort of issues did you have?

Mike


----------



## Que

What was it like at the 8th month mark?


----------



## gsand

I can't believe people are still talking about this, who knew...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

gsand said:


> I can't believe people are still talking about this, who knew...


It still comes up because it's what everyone wants. It doesn't help that the *Single Live Buffer* doesn't work. When the one-n-only buffer has problems it just draws the discussion right back to the the front....:scratch:

You know what I mean.

Mike


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Micro - It worked on day 1. The TiVo port for DLB was rock solid from day 1. But then again, it was a different world - the Tivocommunity.com website had a lot of TiVo employees visiting/posting, and they really provided great service.

But, as the company grew (or shrunk, depending on your opinion), such contacts were eliminated. And, after Hughes sold DirecTV to NewsCorp, everything came to a screeching halt.


----------



## hogman

I'm just waioting. I've got an HDTV set an R10 and Philips. OTA HD is good enough till DLB exists, but I don't think it will happen. Software is not cheap to deverlop and from infi on this forum, it doesn't seem to be tested very well either.


----------



## DblD_Indy

Wow,

I still want DLB, and to be the 600th !

Let's just hope it does not take 600 more to get DLB!


----------



## ermax

I became addicted to dual live buffers instantly on my TiVo. It is so simple and intuitive to use.. simply his pause.. then hit the down arrow then find another show to watch... then just pause it... then down arrow to switch back to the first show and then unpause it.

I realize that I can record to shows at once and then click here click there and then click here... there bla bla bla.. and get the same affect. Well.. if I am lucky I get the same affect... that is if it remembers the position that I paused at. Why is this so inconsistent? Why is it that sometimes it remembers the position I paused at but some times it doesn't.

One other thing that drives me crazy is the massive repeat delay the remote has. I find my self holding my remote like a PlayStation controller to go up and down the menus because it is faster then waiting the 3secs it takes for the remote to start repeating.

This has got to be the two stupidest and easiest problems to fix.

Ok.. I will compromise a little.. just let us record two shows at once and then give us say the blue button to switch between the currently recording programs with out having to click 20 different menu items. Also fix it so it consistently remembers the pause location on the two streams.

It was hard enough to convince my wife how to use the buffers on the TiVo.. once she started using them she was addicted. I fear I will never teach her how to use the hacky dual buffer method on the HR20.. Crap I can hardly remember how to do it.

And the repeat delay on the remote would most likely just be a change to a variable somewhere... no coding needed. Fix it!!

I think someone else here nailed it on the head when they said that D* thinks we will watch more commercials if we don't have dual buffers.


----------



## barneyferd

ermax said:


> Ok.. I will compromise a little.. just let us record two shows at once and then give us say the blue button to switch between the currently recording programs with out having to click 20 different menu items. Also fix it so it consistently remembers the pause location on the two streams.
> 
> It was hard enough to convince my wife how to use the buffers on the TiVo.. once she started using them she was addicted. I fear I will never teach her how to use the hacky dual buffer method on the HR20.. Crap I can hardly remember how to do it.


Let me first just say that I miss DLB as much as the others here, so don't take this as an endorsement of this so-called 'hack' way around DLB. But you do have the 'blue button' you are asking for - it's called the 'PREV' key. If you are watching one of the programs currently being recorded, and then through the menu select the other program to be recorded, the 'PREV' key will then jump between the two programs, just like jumping between two channels of live TV.

That said, it is so not a replacement for DLB. I don't even bother with it because it is so lame. And my wife sounds a lot like yours - it's why I still run an SD DirecTiVo in the bedroom where most of her TV watching occurs. She doesn't always watch recordings - sometimes she just wants to see whats on currently - maybe we didn't have it set up as a Season Pass, but it is something she was interested in. She will walk in the room, turn on the TV to see what is on, hit the down button to see what was on the other tuner. If she likes either, she will hit the record button and jump back to the beginning. I would love to replace it with an HR20, but this is the single reason I won't. I wouldn't be allowed back in the bedroom.

Note - my experience may be out of date, but I found that the pause function when using this hack was useless. Unlike TiVo DLB, it doesn't (didn't?) want to let me pause the one channel (recording), jump to the other channel (recording), then jump back to the first and pick up where I was paused originally. It always seems to jump to the 'live' portion of the broadcast. Major PITA.


----------



## ermax

barneyferd said:


> Let me first just say that I miss DLB as much as the others here, so don't take this as an endorsement of this so-called 'hack' way around DLB. But you do have the 'blue button' you are asking for - it's called the 'PREV' key. If you are watching one of the programs currently being recorded, and then through the menu select the other program to be recorded, the 'PREV' key will then jump between the two programs, just like jumping between two channels of live TV.


Man.. I should have thought of that. I just got it activated yesterday so I am still playing around. The fastest way to switch that I found was to start recording two shows then goto the Play List then pick one of the live recordings then to switch back to the other simply hit the back button which puts you back to the Play List where you can switch to the other stream.



> Note - my experience may be out of date, but I found that the pause function when using this hack was useless. Unlike TiVo DLB, it doesn't (didn't?) want to let me pause the one channel (recording), jump to the other channel (recording), then jump back to the first and pick up where I was paused originally. It always seems to jump to the 'live' portion of the broadcast. Major PITA.


This is my biggest problem with it. Using your Prev button idea, it wouldn't be to bad.. Still not a TiVo but not bad, but if it isn't consistent at remembering the pause position of the two recordings then it makes it useless. But like I said.. I just set it up so I will give it more time to see if I can figure out why it remembers the position sometimes but not always.


----------



## DblD_Indy

I would really love to see this done soon. I know as a race fan. 

I would love to be able to buffer a driver channel on one and the F*X broadcast on the other. Then be able to flip back and forth with out being forced to continually record/stop record/ record / stop record every time I want buffer a driver.

Having to do this really does Kill some of the excitement of having Hot Pass.


----------



## CCarncross

Probably only truly wanted the rabid sports fans.


----------



## apollosmith

CCarncross said:


> Probably only truly wanted the rabid sports fans.


My wife uses it to watch Lost and American Idol (for example) at the same time. She is by no means a 'power user' and isn't all that technically savvy, but she uses dual buffers ALL THE TIME. When I told her we can't do that with the HR-20, she pretty much decided to not watch TV on it and stick with our DirecTivo on our other TV.

Here direct quote was, "Why would you buy a 'Tivo' (she doesn't realize that all DVR's aren't Tivos) when you can't watch two shows at the same time? Can you return it and get a 'real' Tivo?"

If that there doesn't make D* think seriously about fixing this, I don't know what will.


----------



## qwertyasd

I spoke with d* about another issue and while I was on the call, I mentioned the DLB. The tech I was talking to also moved from a directivo to a D* dvr and wasn't happy about not having DLBs. He said that they can submit suggestions. I'm thinking of calling on a weekly basis until they add the DLBs.


----------



## CCarncross

I just cant see the point in trying to watch two scripted shows at the same time, it still takes the same amount of time to watch the shows, and you have to be there when they are on to watch them, thats not watching them on my time table.


----------



## mtnagel

CCarncross said:


> I just cant see the point in trying to watch two scripted shows at the same time, it still takes the same amount of time to watch the shows, and you have to be there when they are on to watch them, thats not watching them on my time table.


Dude, don't get them started! :eek2: 

I'm just kidding. I agree with you, but read the whole thread, this has been talked about. People watch tv different. And most of the time, they aren't using DLB's for scripted shows.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

I use DLB for a lot of sports events


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Two questions-

1. Is the HR20 capable of doing DLB?

2. Will the HR20 ever see DLB anytime in the next year?

Thanks


----------



## mtnagel

theratpatrol said:


> Two questions-
> 
> 1. Is the HR20 capable of doing DLB?
> 
> 2. Will the HR20 ever see DLB anytime in the next year?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, it's capable, but when we'll see it, no one knows besides D*.


----------



## tiger2005

theratpatrol said:


> Two questions-
> 
> 1. Is the HR20 capable of doing DLB?
> 
> 2. Will the HR20 ever see DLB anytime in the next year?
> 
> Thanks


I'm beginning to think that its very doubtful we will see DLB on this box due to a few reasons.

The top two being D*'s silence on the issue, which to me speaks volumes. They don't want to upset the DLB supporters, of which there are MANY, myself included.

The second and largest reason IMO, is the very large VoD push D* is making. In order for all that content to be placed on the DVR that 2nd tuner is going to be used A LOT, even with the network connection, therefore why implement a feature that will conflict with a "more important" feature. :nono2::nono2:

I know that TiVo uses the 2nd tuner in a similar way, but that is on a miniscule scale compared to what D* is planning. And how often, when not using the DLB workaround, are both tuners actually being used at the same time? With DLB, that % would go up dramatically.

I could be totally off on this subject, but with those factors in play I find myself believing that if I truly want DLB my future is not with D*. :nono2:


----------



## raott

CCarncross said:


> I just cant see the point in trying to watch two scripted shows at the same time, it still takes the same amount of time to watch the shows, and you have to be there when they are on to watch them, thats not watching them on my time table.


And not having DLBs forces me to watch shows not on my time table.

Maybe I just want to see a score or the local news headlines, put one channel on ESPN, the other on a show I'm watching to see if I'm interested in it, but don't want to record. With DLB's its easy, without DLBs its either record both shows or lose the buffer.

People do not watch TV the same way. I watch a mix of live and recorded TV, DLBs greatly facilitated that. It was the first thing my wife noticed and she can't stand most sports.

Virtually every other provider of dual tuner DVRs has DLBs, its time D* did something about it instead of remaining silent.


----------



## Que

tiger2005 said:


> I'm beginning to think that its very doubtful we will see DLB on this box due to a few reasons.
> 
> The top two being D*'s silence on the issue, which to me speaks volumes. They don't want to upset the DLB supporters, of which there are MANY, myself included.
> 
> The second and largest reason IMO, is the very large VoD push D* is making. In order for all that content to be placed on the DVR that 2nd tuner is going to be used A LOT, even with the network connection, therefore why implement a feature that will conflict with a "more important" feature. :nono2::nono2:
> 
> I know that TiVo uses the 2nd tuner in a similar way, but that is on a miniscule scale compared to what D* is planning. And how often, when not using the DLB workaround, are both tuners actually being used at the same time? With DLB, that % would go up dramatically.
> 
> I could be totally off on this subject, but with those factors in play I find myself believing that if I truly want DLB my future is not with D*. :nono2:


I think you might be right.  We are at the 8th month mark and still nothing. Most other DVR out there have DLB. They are really hoping the market will want VOD over DLB. I bet they are wrong.

I don't want or need VOD. I really wish there was a way to *OPT OUT* on it. That's when/if I get an HR20. Going to keep my HR10 as long as I can. (Feb 2008 2yr is up)


----------



## SuperTech1

tiger2005 said:


> I'm beginning to think that its very doubtful we will see DLB on this box due to a few reasons.
> 
> The top two being D*'s silence on the issue, which to me speaks volumes. They don't want to upset the DLB supporters, of which there are MANY, myself included.
> 
> The second and largest reason IMO, is the very large VoD push D* is making. In order for all that content to be placed on the DVR that 2nd tuner is going to be used A LOT, even with the network connection, therefore why implement a feature that will conflict with a "more important" feature. :nono2::nono2:
> 
> I know that TiVo uses the 2nd tuner in a similar way, but that is on a miniscule scale compared to what D* is planning. And how often, when not using the DLB workaround, are both tuners actually being used at the same time? With DLB, that % would go up dramatically.
> 
> I could be totally off on this subject, but with those factors in play I find myself believing that if I truly want DLB my future is not with D*. :nono2:


Actually there are 3 Sat tuners in the HR20 with the 3rd reserved for "future use" at this time. Most speculation is that it is for VOD.


----------



## tiger2005

SuperTech1 said:


> Actually there are 3 Sat tuners in the HR20 with the 3rd reserved for "future use" at this time. Most speculation is that it is for VOD.


Yes that is true, but that would also require additional hardware (FTM) to be installed in every house, assuming most people don't have a multiswitch with FTM built-in which I don't. My concerns with that would be:

1. Is D* going to go through the process of installing FTM in the houses of all HR20 owners? (IMO, probably not):nono2:
2. Is D* going to go through all the programming necessary to add DLB, given #1, and the possibility that not everyone will be able to have 3 tuners? (IMO, probably not):nono2:

As I've said, I REALLY hope I'm wrong, but its becoming apparent to me that D* has much larger plans that could potentially conflict with the implementation of DLB. This is beginning to look like a very large technical shortcoming for satellite vs. having cable.


----------



## BrettStah

tiger2005 said:


> Yes that is true, but that would also require additional hardware (FTM) to be installed in every house, assuming most people don't have a multiswitch with FTM built-in which I don't. My concerns with that would be:
> 
> 1. Is D* going to go through the process of installing FTM in the houses of all HR20 owners? (IMO, probably not):nono2:
> 2. Is D* going to go through all the programming necessary to add DLB, given #1, and the possibility that not everyone will be able to have 3 tuners? (IMO, probably not):nono2:
> 
> As I've said, I REALLY hope I'm wrong, but its becoming apparent to me that D* has much larger plans that could potentially conflict with the implementation of DLB. This is beginning to look like a very large technical shortcoming for satellite vs. having cable.


A good compromise (in my opinion only) is for the DLB logic to work something like this... if X minutes elapse since the last time you've switched to one of the tuners, the HR20 will assume that you're not using it right now, and can use it for VOD downloads, software updates, etc. After any downloads, the HR20 can go back to buffering whatever channel that tuner was previously on.

In other words, the live buffer would basically be treated as an ad-hoc recording that lasts "X" minutes long. The "X" keeps getting reset every time the user switches to the tuner. Once "X" finally elapses, the HR20 can do whatever it needs to do with that tuner.

Ideally, the "X" would be large enough so that *most* people would rarely if ever notice it. I would think that the "X" would be something like 60-90 minutes.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Eventually - an alternative to this box is going to be something that is affordable. The Comcast TiVo is not far away, and the Series 3 will eventually come down in price. 

I have opened my options up and I am waiting (financially) for a good moment to make the switch. I'll be following the Comcast TiVo launch closely, and looking for ways to afford the Series 3 from here on out. 

Even if D* is busting their bottoms to make DLB work, the fact that they won't tell us so, and the fact that if they are, it's not going so well - lead me to believe it is VERY unlikely we are getting this feature.

Once a viable alternative to the HR20 appears, the only thing that will make me remain loyal to D* is an announced target date for DLB or an MPEG4 HD TiVo.

I would very much prefer to be a D* - but not if they can't accommodate a request for a feature I've been using for 4-5 years.


----------



## tiger2005

jaywdetroit said:


> Eventually - an alternative to this box is going to be something that is affordable. The Comcast TiVo is not far away, and the Series 3 will eventually come down in price.
> 
> I have opened my options up and I am waiting (financially) for a good moment to make the switch. I'll be following the Comcast TiVo launch closely, and looking for ways to afford the Series 3 from here on out.
> 
> Even if D* is busting their bottoms to make DLB work, the fact that they won't tell us so, and the fact that if they are, it's not going so well - lead me to believe it is VERY unlikely we are getting this feature.
> 
> Once a viable alternative to the HR20 appears, the only thing that will make me remain loyal to D* is an announced target date for DLB or an MPEG4 HD TiVo.
> 
> I would very much prefer to be a D* - but not if they can't accommodate a request for a feature I've been using for 4-5 years.


I concur. We are supposed to get FiOS TV in our area early next year so I'll more than likely be moving services then if D* hasn't made an announcement by then. Then I can have true VoD AND TiVo together. I've enjoyed D*, but this feature is a deal breaker for me and IMO D* is breaking that deal.


----------



## Mike P

jaywdetroit said:


> Eventually - an alternative to this box is going to be something that is affordable. The Comcast TiVo is not far away, and the Series 3 will eventually come down in price.
> 
> I have opened my options up and I am waiting (financially) for a good moment to make the switch. I'll be following the Comcast TiVo launch closely, and looking for ways to afford the Series 3 from here on out.
> 
> Even if D* is busting their bottoms to make DLB work, the fact that they won't tell us so, and the fact that if they are, it's not going so well - lead me to believe it is VERY unlikely we are getting this feature.
> 
> Once a viable alternative to the HR20 appears, the only thing that will make me remain loyal to D* is an announced target date for DLB or an MPEG4 HD TiVo.
> 
> I would very much prefer to be a D* - but not if they can't accommodate a request for a feature I've been using for 4-5 years.


*Yep Jay, I totally agree.......*

When I'm watching NFL Sunday Ticket on my Tivo unit I like to keep one of the buffers on *The Red Zone Channel* so I don't miss any of the scoring (fantasy football). And then I'll have another buffer on a good game that I'm watching the most of.

I'll mostly use my HR20 because I want to watch the games in HD, but unless they come up with *Dual Live Buffers for the HR20*, I'll have to run to the other room to see a paused version of the Red Zone Channel.

I like using the Red, Green, Yellow, & Blue buttons with NFL Sunday Ticket, but I'm kind of leaning towards trying another HD DVR unit (Tivo Series 3).

 * sigh *


----------



## Que

SuperTech1 said:


> Actually there are 3 Sat tuners in the HR20 with the 3rd reserved for "future use" at this time. Most speculation is that it is for VOD.


After they release VOD, then get the pause point working right, then SLB working right. I can only hope they move on to DLB. That's after most bugs are work out. So... It might be a bit longer.


----------



## gNOMEintheRedHat

I just ordered a HR20, and I'm replacing a DTivo with a bad tuner.

This missing feature is going to kill me!

I don't remember the last time I only watched 1 live show at a time... :grin:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

gNOMEintheRedHat said:


> I just ordered a HR20, and I'm replacing a DTivo with a bad tuner.
> 
> This missing feature is going to kill me!
> 
> I don't remember the last time I only watched 1 live show at a time... :grin:


We hear ya and were with ya.....

Just keep the push alive :bang :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Que

A must have! 1117 75.07%
Don't really care about it. 94	6.32%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 277 18.62%
Voters: 1488


Just a bump for all the new users.


----------



## Mike P

Dual Live Buffers!!!

Why can't I just hit the down button lik on my old Tivo unit & have it work!?

Damn! : (


----------



## DblD_Indy

Que said:


> A must have! 1117 75.07%
> Don't really care about it. 94	6.32%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 277 18.62%
> Voters: 1488
> 
> Just a bump for all the new users.


Let's hope it happens in 2007!


----------



## pasinfw

How about a "friendly" day of persuasion for D*.

Everyone interested call customer support to ask when DLB is to be delivered. If enough people do it and make it a monthly event maybe they'll get the hint!

I'll suggest the 2nd Monday of every month. I've already made my call for this month.

And if that doesn't work I'm with the others watching D* competitors and will jump ship when its right.


----------



## jaywdetroit

pasinfw said:


> How about a "friendly" day of persuasion for D*.
> 
> Everyone interested call customer support to ask when DLB is to be delivered. If enough people do it and make it a monthly event maybe they'll get the hint!
> 
> I'll suggest the 2nd Monday of every month. I've already made my call for this month.
> 
> And if that doesn't work I'm with the others watching D* competitors and will jump ship when its right.


Do the CSRs even know what you are talking about when you try to explain it to them? I am sure the term "DLB" is meaningless to them as one of DBSTalk's members coined it.


----------



## Que

pasinfw said:


> How about a "friendly" day of persuasion for D*.
> 
> Everyone interested call customer support to ask when DLB is to be delivered. If enough people do it and make it a monthly event maybe they'll get the hint!
> 
> I'll suggest the 2nd Monday of every month. I've already made my call for this month.
> 
> And if that doesn't work I'm with the others watching D* competitors and will jump ship when its right.


If you want to do that, it might be better if you write them.

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

Now one every 2nd Monday might be the hard part. :lol:


----------



## jaywdetroit

Que said:


> If you want to do that, it might be better if you write them.
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550
> 
> Now one every 2nd Monday might be the hard part. :lol:


I'm willing to give it one last ditch effort before throwing in the towel. Someone should write a form letter that people can print off, sign, and send to D*. If we send them every couple of weeks for a few months, AND COPY the MEDIA in on our campaign, then we might finally get an official response from D*.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Here's what they'll say...

What other DVR has DLB? (Other than the D* Tivo's, of course).


----------



## scostigan

And you can say that COX and Comcast has it also with the Moto Box.


----------



## microbob

Well, a few days ago I "upgraded" to DirectTV's HD DVR from an old Series 2 Tivo and was SHOCKED to find there isn't a dual buffer. 

I think this is a MUST HAVE feature. I've lost my "pause-flip-play" routine that I used to have with my Tivo and just can't seem to find the same thing on this HD DVR.

Girrrr.....this makes me a rather unhappy DirectTV customer.


----------



## Que

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Here's what they'll say...
> 
> What other DVR has DLB? (Other than the D* Tivo's, of course).


I think most *other DVR has DLB*, D* DVR are the only one that doesn't for some reason.


----------



## Que

jaywdetroit said:


> I'm willing to give it one last ditch effort before throwing in the towel. Someone should write a form letter that people can print off, sign, and send to D*. If we send them every couple of weeks for a few months, AND COPY the MEDIA in on our campaign, then we might finally get an official response from D*.


Write something up. I'll be glad to mail it out.


----------



## microbob

Que said:


> I think most *other DVR has DLB*, D* DVR are the only one that doesn't for some reason.


Do you know if DishNetwork's HD DVR has this feature?


----------



## sshams95

Que said:


> Write something up. I'll be glad to mail it out.


Ditto


----------



## Que

microbob said:


> Do you know if DishNetwork's HD DVR has this feature?


Tom Robertson http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=923414#post923414



> Yes, the Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB, PIP, and two TV control (two separate TV feeds, tho the second is 480i.) The only two things that the Vip622 lacks is a second OTA tuner and the ability to truly add disk space--any larger drives are used as VOD storage. But it will/can archive to a USB disk and playback from the USB storage. (Not sure if that feature is fully enabled yet.)
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## microbob

Que said:


> Tom Robertson showthread.php?p=923414#post923414


Excellent. Thanks. I now start my campaign to get out of my two year contract.

Given the fact that the installers have been to my house 4 times now over a period of 28 days and *still* do not have all my gear setup, I do think I have an out.


----------



## Steve2726

This thread reminds me of the old HR10-250 thread on whether or not that box would ever get the 6.x software upgrade. Most people were pleading with D* but a few insisted that it was hopeless and that we were :beatdeadhorse: Then one day it magically appeared. Hopefully the same will happen here.


----------



## mr anderson

Amazing.

Over 39,000 views in this thread.

Thirty-Nine-Thousand!

And still no word, response, or interest from DirectTV regarding dual live buffers.

Simply amazing to me.


----------



## Que

If someone write something up. Can you also include at list of DVRs/companys that has DLB. I think only D* is the only one that doesn't have it. I'll do some research and posted back.

Who wants to write something up? So we can all mail it out.

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

[edit] Here local the option I have are Charter (moxie) has it. You can also use S3. We already know that Dish Network(VIP622)has it. We need people in the Comcast cable area and Time Warner cable to find out if they have DLB. If you have the time look at all your options in your area and call them. List the DVRs here. Thanks!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Que said:


> If someone write something up. Can you also include at list of DVRs/companys that has DLB. I think only D* is the only one that doesn't have it. I'll do some research and posted back.
> 
> Who wants to write something up? So we can all mail it out.
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


I'm working on something now and will let everyone know what's up.

Mike


----------



## bhunt01

As an alternate opinion. Having a 90 minute buffer that allows me to record an in progress film with nothing missing even if I turn on after the movie has been playing for over an houris, in my opinion, of far greater value than dual buffers which I never used as a TIVO owner of many years. I always make sure I leave my TV on HBOH or SHOH so I can come turn on, see a couple of minutes of whatever is in flight, and hit record to get the whole movie which I watch at a later time.

Before you send form letters asking to change what some may enjoy, please ensure that you preserve the function that is there today


----------



## BrettStah

bhunt01 said:


> As an alternate opinion. Having a 90 minute buffer that allows me to record an in progress film with nothing missing even if I turn on after the movie has been playing for over an houris, in my opinion, of far greater value than dual buffers which I never used as a TIVO owner of many years. I always make sure I leave my TV on HBOH or SHOH so I can come turn on, see a couple of minutes of whatever is in flight, and hit record to get the whole movie which I watch at a later time.
> 
> Before you send form letters asking to change what some may enjoy, please ensure that you preserve the function that is there today


There's no reason why it's an "either/or" scenario. With the DirecTiVos, you get dual live buffers, and the ability to record whatever is currently playing live, and you get any part of the movie/game/show that is already in the buffer. (And while the Tivo's buffers are 30 minutes long, I commonly get 40-45 minutes of whatever is on - it has something to do with how the Tivos purge the buffer periodically). But you could have two 90-minute buffers, for example, unless you are almost out of usable space, at which times the buffers could be shrunk down to 60 minutes each, and then 45 minutes each, etc.

Or perhaps more easily implemented, a menu option could be presented to the users, and the choice would be between the current single buffer that's 90 minutes long, or two buffers (possibly 45 minutes long each, to keep the space requirements the same). It would be made known that if you don't switch to the other tuner for a certain amount of time, then the HR20 would be free to change channels to download whatever is needed - guide data, VOD content, etc. Once that's done, it could switch back to the last channel that you had left it on, so potentially it wouldn't even be that noticable for most people most of the time).


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I had some issues this past weekend but I'm still writing a letter(almost done). I will let everyone know when I'm done.

Mike

Didn't wany anyone to think I blew everyone off.


----------



## Diana C

BrettStah said:


> ....And while the Tivo's buffers are 30 minutes long, I commonly get 40-45 minutes of whatever is on....


And those of us comfortable with Linux scripts were able to extend those buffers (I have dual 90 minute buffers on all of my DirecTiVos).


----------



## funhouse69

I know it's all personal preference but I can't imagine anyone that has had DLB's and used them wouldn't miss them. I use them All The Time. Since getting my HR20 I've kept 2 SD D* TiVO's activated / connected just for that reason (well that and some backup in case my HR20 misses something). If / when the HR20 gets DLB I will dump my 2 SD's and get a second HR20. 

There isn't a single day that goes by that I wouldn't have one channel live and the second tuner on another channel like the news. When I switched I would be able to go back, catch the headlines or the weather then go back to where I was - perfect use for the feature. Having to record one and going to the other is a workaround but I haven't done it and probably won't. I will just keep at least one SD Receiver around for that. 

Obviously the number of responses to the poll speaks for itself. It is a 100% Must Have no ifs ands or buts. :soapbox:


----------



## qwertyasd

funhouse69 said:


> ...
> 
> Obviously the number of responses to the poll speaks for itself. It is a 100% Must Have no ifs ands or buts. :soapbox:


Actually, it's a 75.36% must have feature (as of today)!


----------



## lambo881

Now if I weren't spoiled by the Directivo DVRs, I probably wouldn't really know what I was missing. Just started my conversion to the new boxes which has been painful on many fronts. No DLB is just one more gripe...


----------



## Mike P

We don't have Dual Live Buffers yet? This sucks.....


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I was amazed to find that I actually LOVED everything about the HR20. (TiVo user forever). PQ and Audio Quality are better. Faster menus, nice UI.

Except for the lack of DLB.

I really hope they get this done after VOD.


----------



## ericpd

jonaswan2 said:


> Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!


DishNetwork's 942, and I would imagine their 622, has this function. You can record program A and STILL retain two live buffers for program B and C. I've done it and was surprised. Now that changes if one of those programs are OTA!


----------



## Mike P

ericpd said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by jonaswan2
> Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!


*I didn't know Earl said we'll get an update saving the paused location on 2 tuners. If that's the case, this is pretty much a done deal! Because you can easily simulate the dual buffers by hiting record on the 2 channels you want to dual buffer! Sweet!*


----------



## tiger2005

Mike P said:


> *I didn't know Earl said we'll get an update saving the paused location on 2 tuners. If that's the case, this is pretty much a done deal! Because you can easily simulate the dual buffers by hiting record on the 2 channels you want to dual buffer! Sweet!*


I'm not sure where that quote came from, but I'm not aware of Earl saying anything about DLB being added to the box. The last update I had heard was that D* is still looking into it. That answer alone is one of the reasons a lot of people feel this feature will never be added.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

I'm almost positive that Earl never said that.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Earl would never say something like that - 
1. Because it isn't true.
2. Because if it were - he still wouldn't tell us it was coming unless D* made it public information. 

So until you see the official "DLB is Coming" thread, don't hold your breath.


----------



## tiger2005

Has anybody heard anything on the status, maybe I should say non-status, with D*? I'm REALLY becoming bitter towards D* because of this issue. I'm planning on canceling my NFL ST subscription since without DLB its completely not enjoyable to me. I'm really beginning to think *gulp* that Comcrap would even be better at this point since I can at least use a TiVo with them. FiOS isn't coming to my area for at least another 6 months and I don't know if I can make it that long with D*. The $200+ cancellation fee would be painful, which should show my frustration level since I'm considering paying it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Has anybody heard anything on the status, maybe I should say non-status, with D*? I'm REALLY becoming bitter towards D* because of this issue. I'm planning on canceling my NFL ST subscription since without DLB its completely not enjoyable to me. I'm really beginning to think *gulp* that Comcrap would even be better at this point since I can at least use a TiVo with them. FiOS isn't coming to my area for at least another 6 months and I don't know if I can make it that long with D*. The $200+ cancellation fee would be painful, which should show my frustration level since I'm considering paying it.


No, there is no update on the status of this..

But before you decide to go the Comcast route... be sure to do your homework for your area. Here in Chicago, Comcast is about to turn off Analog services for anything other then the locals (NBC, CBS, ect)....

The T3 via Cable Cards (which you would be advised in doing your homework on that with regards to Comcast as well), would be your only option for dual tuners.... let alone dual buffers....


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, there is no update on the status of this..
> 
> But before you decide to go the Comcast route... be sure to do your homework for your area. Here in Chicago, Comcast is about to turn off Analog services for anything other then the locals (NBC, CBS, ect)....
> 
> The T3 via Cable Cards (which you would be advised in doing your homework on that with regards to Comcast as well), would be your only option for dual tuners.... let alone dual buffers....


Thanks, Earl! I'm a D* subscriber for 8 years now so I've definitely been doing my homework on the pros and cons of Comcast the last few days. I've been researching the S3 on TiVocommunity so I'm definitely seeing the issues its experiencing. More than likely I'll just wait for FiOS to become available in my area and evaluate my options in 6 months. Honestly, I think D*'s silence on the issue is what's frustrating me the most. If they would just come out and say, "NO, the box was never designed for DLB and we aren't going to implement it" or "Yes, we'll have it for sure but we need more time to get other things straightened out first", I could accept either of those. Its the lack of any real information/statement that is really bothering me.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

As far as I know... as of my last conversation about the topic...

There is no definitive answer.... there is not a "No, it won't be done" or a "Yes, it will be done"....


----------



## jaywdetroit

tiger2005 said:


> Thanks, Earl! I'm a D* subscriber for 8 years now so I've definitely been doing my homework on the pros and cons of Comcast the last few days. I've been researching the S3 on TiVocommunity so I'm definitely seeing the issues its experiencing. More than likely I'll just wait for FiOS to become available in my area and evaluate my options in 6 months. Honestly, I think D*'s silence on the issue is what's frustrating me the most. If they would just come out and say, "NO, the box was never designed for DLB and we aren't going to implement it" or "Yes, we'll have it for sure but we need more time to get other things straightened out first", I could accept either of those. Its the lack of any real information/statement that is really bothering me.


Is silence golden?

http://www.theexaminer.org/volume8/number1/editor.htm


----------



## jheda

wow, Jay deep!!! I think, Earl, the silence is frustrating. Its hard to believe a co. this size doesnt have knowledge whether they plan/dont plan on implementing such an important feature. IMHO I think in this amazing two way relationship we've developed, through your facilitation, we have earned, so to speak, a better answer from them, dont you? 

PS, Jeremy dont even think of posting here


----------



## Mike P

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by edpowers
> Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?





Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now... this is correct... I am hoping it changes in a near future software upgrade.


*This is the quote from Earl that I was talking about. It is post #27 in this thread.*


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Mike P said:


> *This is the quote from Earl that I was talking about. It is post #27 in this thread.*


Hmph... Just realized that the HR20 was introduced 9 months ago yesterday..
Time flies...

Anyway... when I made that statement... that was way back when I think I was still the only one with a HR20...

Pausing the Live buffer when going into a recorded program....
I know that is something they still plan to get implemented... but I don't know where it is in the list of things to get done.


----------



## DJConan

Earl Bonovich said:


> Pausing the Live buffer when going into a recorded program....
> I know that is something they still plan to get implemented... but I don't know where it is in the list of things to get done.


I've been wondering about that. I figured it was probably covered in the forums somewhere previously, so I never bothered to ask.

If I am going to watch live TV, I prefer to have the ability to time shift. So I will watch a recorded program to give a live event a chance to buffer. But then of course, when I go back to live, I have to RW back to the beginning of the program. :nono:

About this poll, I think a long time ago I voted that I didn't care, but back then, my box was locking up 1-2 times a day. Now that the lock ups have almost disappeared, I'd really like to see the DLB implemented.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I apologize to everyone about the letter. I've been away from the forum for most of the last month for personal reasons and didn't get to finishing it up.

I did put together a draft and did a lot of research and will finish the letter if people still want me too.

You might find this interesting. Regardless what has been said in various threads about other DVR's that don't have DLB(and there are some), every TV service provider I looked at currently offers a HD/DVR that has some incarnation of DLB. If you pick up a phone today and go to get service from any of the other provider, *you will definitely get a HD/DVR that has DLB*.

Here are some examples:

Charter Communications - Motorola(Moxie BMC-90xx)/Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD)
Cox-----------|
Comcast-------|(these companies seem to be all related)
Adelphia------| - Motorola(DCT-6412 & Moxie)/Scientific Atlantic(Explorer 8000HD)
Time Warner---| 
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola(DCT-6412)

I checked each company in a bunch of different ZIP Codes to make sure they offered the DVR's everywhere. The list is actually longer but these are the major providers.

Again, I apologize for the long absence after I promised to write a letter. I will have it completed in the next day or two. The only thing I'm not sure of, is how to reference other company's offerings. Do I just list some companies that offer DLB with their HD/DVR's or just say that other "_major_" cable/dbs companies offer DLB.

Of course it would be nice if SLB worked correctly.....but that's a different thread. 

Mike


----------



## Que

MicroBeta no apologizing needed. Looks like great info so far. Take your time. Let me know if you need some help.

I say list the companies that offer DLB.

[edit] In my area, I have Dish Network (Vip622 has DLB) and Charter. (Moxie)


----------



## Chuck W

Earl Bonovich said:


> As far as I know... as of my last conversation about the topic...
> 
> There is no definitive answer.... there is not a "No, it won't be done" or a "Yes, it will be done"....


That's disappointing. This is the one hangup I have, about going to the new HD DVR. I use DLB ALL, I mean ALL the time. Without it, I'd be really frustrated and probably PO'd

I doubt I'll ever switch to the new box, if they don't implement this. I'd probably look at my cable company instead(shutter) to see if they had it. It's that important to me.


----------



## islesfan

Rather have CIR/autorecord than DLB. I rarely get to watch live as it is, since the Islanders play in the Eastern time zone, and I live in the Pacific. I'd rather they just enable DVR than DLB.


----------



## Duffycoug

DJConan said:


> About this poll, I think a long time ago I voted that I didn't care, but back then, my box was locking up 1-2 times a day. Now that the lock ups have almost disappeared, I'd really like to see the DLB implemented.


Start a new poll...I'll bet the % would be even higher....too many other things to worry about back then, so I also voted that it didn't bother me back then.....now, since the box works fine, I want the buffers badly....especially since baseball season is here...I have to watch my baseball on my tivo boxes.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

shoot - over 75% is a virtual landslide.

Just a paradigm shift needed for our friends at D*. Based on no real facts, I think they'll get there


----------



## LOBO2999

I watch tv on my 2 hd tivos 90% of the time becasue of BLD and I dont like the remote on the hr20. They give us DLB i will put up with the remote.


----------



## Strejcek

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## jheda

good timing...lotsa new users...


----------



## durl

I'll be a new user come tomorrow when my HR20 arrives.

One of the main things I'll miss is the dual live buffers. It's great being able to watch one program but keep a ballgame on the other tuner and flip back/rewind to see what I missed.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

nogdas said:


> I meant, Since the HR20 is cippled and has no Dual Live buffers, you can not be able switch between 2 games and rewind, and then switch to a 3rd and a 4th channel, and buffer that current and last channel.
> 
> With your method you are loked into watching 2 nfl sunday ticket games at once and have no options to go to the other games on at same time, therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.


All you have to do is record the two games and press prev button that is a HR20 workaround I do it all the time try it


----------



## jaywdetroit

JACKIEGAGA said:


> All you have to do is record the two games and press prev button that is a HR20 workaround I do it all the time try it


what happens if you want to surf on the "other" tuner?


----------



## Tom Robertson

jaywdetroit said:


> what happens if you want to surf on the "other" tuner?


+1. My issue exactly. During the NFL season, I tend to follow all the games in the rest of the division.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mr anderson

Start a poll about how we "really don't need DLB" and "don't want it".

Then watch as....


We start to hear rumor that DTV has started working on it.

Earl, Bonscott, and henchman all work in tandem post mode letting us know how it's a feature most people want (even if you don't agree and they give no logical reasoning for their answers).

Trial CE's containing the new DLB are suddenly released into the wild....


----------



## floppyjoe

Look, if it is a dual-tuner then it should have dual-buffers. Who needs a 90 minute buffer anyway? If you don't need or care for dual-tuners then you just don't "get it". Your taking backward steps, soon you'll be back to vcr's. DVR's have actually helped me not have to be a slave to the tv or more accurately programs and time. Recording 2 shows at same time work-around is still binding me to 2 shows... I want freedom, free to switch between tuners, free to surf. I for one will not be renewing my NFL Sunday Ticket this year and I'll make sure they know that is the reason. The more you can do the better and dual-buffers give you way more flexibility, that is called progress. And the more surfing I do the more programming I can stumble onto, including ads. So if its not advertisers then D* is just stupid or stubborn or both. It is sad we have gone backwards. Tivo was the best thing that ever happened to DirecTV.


----------



## Burb

My 2 cents.
DLB is a must.
Ken


----------



## Que

A must have! 1253 75.48%
Don't really care about it. 105 6.33%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 302 18.19%
Voters: 1660. 

Just a bump. For all the new users.


----------



## txtommy

My vote: Don't need it.

Had DLB with Tivo and used it occasionally but don't miss it now that I have HR20. Seldom need to record two shows at once and haven't watched a football game (boring) in years. If a single play is that exciting it will be replayed to death on ESPN for the next week anyway.


----------



## kmill14

New user to the HR-20 from Tivo, and I absolutely LOVED the Dual-Buffer and used it religiously.

Like another user posted, it is just another tool to give you flexibility to watch TV your way. In the 3 days I have had this new system, I have already ticked myself off for having switched channels without recording a program, and then switched back only to realize I missed the first minute of a program I was watching.

With the Dual-Buffer, I never ever had to worry about this. I was even getting my wife to understand the beauty of it! :grin: 

If there was one single change I could have for the HR-20, it would be this feature.


----------



## kramerboy

Another new HR20 user here...

I would LOVE to have DLB in the HR20. I used the DLB every day with my SD Directivo's. Even if we had the ability to pause what is in the live buffer while going back and forth between what is recording on the other tuner, that would be a great start.


----------



## cazual

txtommy said:


> My vote: Don't need it.
> 
> Had DLB with Tivo and used it occasionally but don't miss it now that I have HR20. Seldom need to record two shows at once and haven't watched a football game (boring) in years. If a single play is that exciting it will be replayed to death on ESPN for the next week anyway.


Not for nothing, but you are in the minority on this one.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

They really need DLB before the NFL season starts.

I watch all of the Bills games, but surf the others. Only way I can do that is with DLB.

DLB is a must-have for NFL Sunday Ticket.


----------



## dmwierz

Even when I'm recording two programs, to simulate dual buffers, why can't I put one program on pause while I'm watching the other? Whenever I try, then return, the program on pause has advanced even though it is being recorded and I paused it.


----------



## Que

dmwierz said:


> Even when I'm recording two programs, to simulate dual buffers, why can't I put one program on pause while I'm watching the other? Whenever I try, then return, the program on pause has advanced even though it is being recorded and I paused it.


That doesn't work on the HR20. For some reason they still haven't updated the pause point. They also need to get SLB to work right. We can only hope that at least get the pause point working right. That would be a little better.


----------



## buckeye09

When my HR10-250 wouldn't get past the powering on screen I called D* hoping it was an easy fix. They told me my receiver was dead and needed replaced. My immediate reaction was to cancel service. Instead I let them talk me into the HR20 without researching it. If I had known it didn't have DLB I would have cancelled service. Now that it has been activated I'm stuck for 2 years. It wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't stuck that giant new dish in my front yard (the old one was on the roof and hardly noticeable). I'll suck it up in the next few months and switch to cable and a tivo series 3 box and pay the early cancellation charge after 6 years of D*.


----------



## jaywdetroit

buckeye09 said:


> When my HR10-250 wouldn't get past the powering on screen I called D* hoping it was an easy fix. They told me my receiver was dead and needed replaced. My immediate reaction was to cancel service. Instead I let them talk me into the HR20 without researching it. If I had known it didn't have DLB I would have cancelled service. Now that it has been activated I'm stuck for 2 years. It wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't stuck that giant new dish in my front yard (the old one was on the roof and hardly noticeable). I'll suck it up in the next few months and switch to cable and a tivo series 3 box and pay the early cancellation charge after 6 years of D*.


Do you still have your HR10-250? Go to the tivo forums over at tivocommunity.com. Maybe you can rebuild the HR10-250.


----------



## r00db0y

Fearing that my my MPEG2 HR10-250 is headed the way of the dinosaurs - I got a HR20 last week.

I can live with the different GUI and all of that - the one thing that is a real step backward is the lack of DLBs. Even the WAF was low on this one - she used the buffers too. Heck - even my 8 yr old daughter knew about the buffers (pause - Hanna Montana to check the score of the basketball game).

But the real question is this - are we going to get DLBs before football season? It is quickly approaching and this is a MUST have. I pony up a lot of $$$ for the Sunday Ticket and expect to watch a lot of football for doing so. Sunday is not going to be the same with out DLBs.

I WANT MY DLB!!!!


----------



## HaiChinGow

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thems the facts. HDMI has been at the root of 50% of the problems, and the most recent update hopes to reduce that number significantly.


As they say, "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from"


----------



## anubys

r00db0y said:


> Fearing that my my MPEG2 HR10-250 is headed the way of the dinosaurs - I got a HR20 last week.
> 
> I can live with the different GUI and all of that - the one thing that is a real step backward is the lack of DLBs. Even the WAF was low on this one - she used the buffers too. Heck - even my 8 yr old daughter knew about the buffers (pause - Hanna Montana to check the score of the basketball game).
> 
> But the real question is this - are we going to get DLBs before football season? It is quickly approaching and this is a MUST have. I pony up a lot of $$$ for the Sunday Ticket and expect to watch a lot of football for doing so. Sunday is not going to be the same with out DLBs.
> 
> I WANT MY DLB!!!!


if you can, do what I did...don't replace your HR10 but add the HR20...you'll now have dual buffers on the HR10 and can record 2 more games on the HR20 at the same time!


----------



## theboomslang

It would be nice to have but not a to die for


----------



## Folin

DLB is a MUST


----------



## DblD_Indy

Folin said:


> DLB is a MUST


Right you are sir!


----------



## DblD_Indy

r00db0y said:


> Fearing that my my MPEG2 HR10-250 is headed the way of the dinosaurs - I got a HR20 last week.
> 
> I can live with the different GUI and all of that - the one thing that is a real step backward is the lack of DLBs. Even the WAF was low on this one - she used the buffers too. Heck - even my 8 yr old daughter knew about the buffers (pause - Hanna Montana to check the score of the basketball game).
> 
> But the real question is this - are we going to get DLBs before football season? It is quickly approaching and this is a MUST have. I pony up a lot of $$$ for the Sunday Ticket and expect to watch a lot of football for doing so. Sunday is not going to be the same with out DLBs.
> 
> I WANT MY DLB!!!!


I agree, what is the final date to cancel Sunday ticket? I doubt I will renew with out DLB on the living room box.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1307 75.77%
Don't really care about it. 107 6.20%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 311 18.03%
Voters: 1725. 

Just a bump for the new users.


----------



## Mike P

DLB is a must!

*I can't believe we don't have it yet! This sucks!  *


----------



## mccskey

Screw changing the GUI from blue to white, spend the time giving us consumers what we want! GIVE ME MY DLB!!!!


----------



## anubys

how do you toggle between tuner 1 and 2?


----------



## Drew2k

anubys said:


> how do you toggle between tuner 1 and 2?


Directly: You can't. (But there's hope that DirecTV will someday fix this, as it has been proven that both tuners save their buffers independently.)

Indirectly: Press record on each tuner, and then go to My Playlist. Play the first show. Go back to My Playlist. Play the second show. Now press PREV to toggle between the two.


----------



## Que

Drew2k said:


> Directly: You can't. (But there's hope that DirecTV will someday fix this, as it has been proven that both tuners save their buffers independently.)
> 
> Indirectly: Press record on each tuner, and then go to My Playlist. Play the first show. Go back to My Playlist. Play the second show. Now press PREV to toggle between the two.


Now if they fix the pause point. I would be OK with that workaround.


----------



## tiger2005

Que said:


> Now if they fix the pause point. I would be OK with that workaround.


I wouldn't be happy with D* just including a pause point. IMO, they need to make a button available to switch tuners. Without a set way to switch tuners, you're eliminating the ability to record on one tuner, and surf on the other.


----------



## bonscott87

tiger2005 said:


> you're eliminating the ability to record on one tuner, and surf on the other.


Just FYI that you can record a program and surf around live TV all you want. There is no limiation in that. A recording is always taking place on the background tuner, the buffer is where you are doing your surfing. The thing the HR20 doesn't have is a buffer on that 2nd tuner. Thus allowing you to surf around on both tuners.


----------



## Ivan1670

Ok I tried recording and pauseing the channel I was on then hitting previous and going to the previous channel, waited a few minutes and hit previous again to go back to the recorded/paused channel and the channel was no longer paused and had continued playing. Is this supposed to happen


----------



## Drew2k

bonscott87 said:


> The thing the HR20 doesn't have is a buffer on that 2nd tuner. Thus allowing you to surf around on both tuners.


Scott -someone here at DBSTalk posted a thread about the buffer being SAVED for each tuner, so apparently the buffer on the 2nd tuner *is* there, but it's only saved under the specific conditions outlined by the OP of that other thread. I tried looking for it, but couldn't find it. What this means is that DirecTV could potentially take actions to enable DLB, but the questions, as always, are how much effort is involved, and when can DirecTV schedule the coding and testing?


----------



## bonscott87

Drew2k said:


> Scott -someone here at DBSTalk posted a thread about the buffer being SAVED for each tuner, so apparently the buffer on the 2nd tuner *is* there, but it's only saved under the specific conditions outlined by the OP of that other thread. I tried looking for it, but couldn't find it. What this means is that DirecTV could potentially take actions to enable DLB, but the questions, as always, are how much effort is involved, and when can DirecTV schedule the coding and testing?


Interesting. Well, it does make sense since it can record 2 things at once. 2 recordings are nothing more then buffers in a way. And 2 buffers are nothing more then an ongoing recording that isn't be saved. I remember one speculation on why the HR20 doesn't have dual buffers was for VOD. Now VOD appears to be mostly by broadband and not sat. So once VOD is out it will be interesting to see what happens in this area.

One thing I will say, now that autocorrection has been added despite it being a Tivo patent and nobody even giving it a small chance I'll certainly never say never to adding things like dual buffers. I guess you never know.


----------



## Drew2k

Drew2k said:


> Scott -someone here at DBSTalk posted a thread about the buffer being SAVED for each tuner, so apparently the buffer on the 2nd tuner *is* there, but it's only saved under the specific conditions outlined by the OP of that other thread. I tried looking for it, but couldn't find it. What this means is that DirecTV could potentially take actions to enable DLB, but the questions, as always, are how much effort is involved, and when can DirecTV schedule the coding and testing?


I found the thread! 

DLB exist its just a software bug


----------



## tiger2005

bonscott87 said:


> Just FYI that you can record a program and surf around live TV all you want. There is no limiation in that. A recording is always taking place on the background tuner, the buffer is where you are doing your surfing. The thing the HR20 doesn't have is a buffer on that 2nd tuner. Thus allowing you to surf around on both tuners.


Actually, yes there is a limitation. Using TiVo as an example, I have the ability to toggle the tuner so I can record on the one tuner and then switch to the other and surf around as needed. If I want to go back to that recording on the tuner all I do is hit the Live TV button to move between the tuners. The big difference is that buffer on the tuner I just left and I'm not recording on is SAVED and I can access that buffer with the TiVo.

With the HR20, if I'm surfing I've lost the ability to go directly back to that recording. I have to enter the channel number again, or access the channel through the Guide. Granted, that's not a difficult chore but when you know that software was developed years ago that has an easier one-button solution, it becomes way more annoying and a PITA. Oh, and did I mention that the buffer isn't saved on that 2nd tuner once you switch back to the first???


----------



## raott

We just moved out of our house and we are living with family while awaiting our new house to be finished. The place we are staying has cable from a relatively small, regional provider (Insight), the DVR is a motorola 6416 and it has DLB's.

I do not understand why this is still undecided, especially with the R15, which has been out 18 months.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1326 75.56%
Don't really care about it. 109 6.21%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 320 18.23%
Voters: 1755

Just a bump for the new users.


----------



## mr anderson

bump for dlb.


----------



## Mavrick

mr anderson said:


> bump for dlb.


 mr anderson you might want to quit bumping these old threads for it has irked Earl and we have to keep Earl happy!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Mavrick said:


> mr anderson you might want to quit bumping these old threads for it has irked Earl and we have to keep Earl happy!


It has ZERO to do with keeping me happy.
Or me being Irked.... It is not the correct method to get your point accross... and is detrimental to the overall forum goals.


----------



## veryoldschool

How can I "un-bump" for DLB?
Oh I know, a mod can give the member a "time out".
Freedom of speech does not extend to yelling FIRE in a crowed movie theater.
Spamming this forum won't get you many friends here. :nono: :nono2:


----------



## armophob

Daaammnn, you just got schooled old style


----------



## HiDefGator

I'm not a huge fan of DLB but can't you solve this problem and double your recording space for just $5 extra a month by getting a second HR20?


----------



## MikeR7

exactly!


----------



## cygnusloop

HiDefGator said:


> I'm not a huge fan of DLB but can't you solve this problem and double your recording space for just $5 extra a month by getting a second HR20?


Well, $4.99/mo, and $299 for the second HR20. :nono2:


----------



## Markay

I'm mostly a lurker here as DBSTalk since I still have (3) DirecTiVos in use, but I really want to be ready for the new HD channels coming up and I'm sorely tempted by the HR20.

Here's the problem ... my wife is *addicted* to DLB and she would KILL me if I replaced the HR10 with an HR20. Seriously. The down-arrow pad (swap tuner) on our remotes is worn off from use.

I'd venture to say that DLB is a _TV viewing lifestyle_ for many folks weaned on the TiVo, and DirecTV would be wise not to ignore our pleas. I, for one, can't make a move until this is addressed without risking a woman's true wrath :eek2:

Oh, and for those suggesting the DLB "work-around", you're cordially invited to visit my house and guide my wife through the procedure. You'll be leaving on a stretcher


----------



## LR308er

HiDefGator said:


> I'm not a huge fan of DLB but can't you solve this problem and double your recording space for just $5 extra a month by getting a second HR20?


If free disk space is the issue, then it's much easier than that.
An external drive can be added for more recording space.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=66201


----------



## mhayes70

I would like to change my vote. I originally thought it was a must to have DLB. But, I can live without it. I use to have Tivo and loved the DLB. But, now that I have the HR20 and got use to the way it works. I am very happy without it. But, I wouldn't mind having it.


----------



## sshams95

It's amazing how heated the DLB topic is, especially those who are against DLB and/or hearing the argument for DLB. There are more important things in our life to get worked up about. 

I want DLB also. I've kept my HR10 for football season for that very reason.

I called DTV Tech Support today on another issue. At the end of the call, I asked him if I could request a new feature for the HR20. He told me that they do have a "suggestion box" and I requested DLB. He was not surprised. He stated he has this requested at least 10 times in the last couple of weeks. 

According to what he knows, DTV is definitely aware that many people want DLB and it's brought up at every R&D/Software meeting. That being said, there is no definitive date but it has not been ruled out at all (something Earl has stated to us many times).

Instead of cluttering this forum with many DLB threads, we need to educate those who do not know what DLB is and get everyone who wants DLB to call/email DTV to request DLB. Cluttering these forums and complaining will not help accomplish our goals.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## veryoldschool

Tastes GREAT....:bang 
Less filling...:wave:


----------



## Monty23

HiDefGator said:


> I'm not a huge fan of DLB but can't you solve this problem and double your recording space for just $5 extra a month by getting a second HR20?


It's not the same thing. 
PS: I do have (2) HR20's.


----------



## jgriffin7

The HR20 will _never _be an adequate replacement of the HR10-250 until DLB.
Bottom line.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, there are people within DIRECTV well aware of our desire and interest in DLB. I have met some of them and I communicate with them fairly often. Because of their customer focus, they read the DBSTalk.com forums VERY often. A very impressive amount of DIRECTV employees read the forums an impressive amount of the time. So I know they know. (And I have mentioned it a time or two.)

I very much want DLBs. I also want many of the other cool features coming down the road. We do not have to be extremely annoying to get our point across. This one thread is enough to remind DIRECTV of our interest. That is all we need to do to keep the pressure on, at least via DBSTalk.com. MANY threads will not help any faster then this one thread. So, I thank you for keeping the interest alive and the reminders coming via this one thread. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bwaldron

jgriffin7 said:


> The HR20 will _never _be an adequate replacement of the HR10-250 until DLB.
> Bottom line.


Personally I can't go that far. Even ignoring MPEG4, I could say that the HR10 isn't adequate without native mode or all outputs active simultaneously (which I won't). I want DLB, but have recently retired my HR10 in favor of a second HR20. So it's not a deal-breaker for me.

But I can understand the point.


----------



## Mike P

*I love this thread! What's going to happen when we get DUAL LIVE BUFFERS? Then will this thread end?

We need DLB!*


----------



## jaywdetroit

I recommend to all that if you want DLBs, put something in your signature and watch this thread. Encourage newcomers to read it and vote. At this point, if we don't have DLB, then it is quite likely someone at D* had decided we aren't going to get it any time soon. Perhaps when/if the HR21 comes along they will design it into it from the start. But until then, be persistent, but not annoying. (Now if I can just follow my own advice.)


----------



## Drew2k

jaywdetroit said:


> I recommend to all that if you want DLBs, put something in your signature and watch this thread. Encourage newcomers to read it and vote.


That's good advice and will be sure to attract attendion to this thread. In fact, some people have already done that ... *cough* *cough* .... with another feature near and dear to them, but alas, that other feature ... *cough* ... was not such a high-level feature like DLB ...


----------



## jheda

I concur and pledge to keep my dlb comments on this site.

Tom, anyway you could make this a sticky????????



Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, there are people within DIRECTV well aware of our desire and interest in DLB. I have met some of them and I communicate with them fairly often. Because of their customer focus, they read the DBSTalk.com forums VERY often. A very impressive amount of DIRECTV employees read the forums an impressive amount of the time. So I know they know. (And I have mentioned it a time or two.)
> 
> I very much want DLBs. I also want many of the other cool features coming down the road. We do not have to be extremely annoying to get our point across. This one thread is enough to remind DIRECTV of our interest. That is all we need to do to keep the pressure on, at least via DBSTalk.com. MANY threads will not help any faster then this one thread. So, I thank you for keeping the interest alive and the reminders coming via this one thread.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## raott

Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, there are people within DIRECTV well aware of our desire and interest in DLB. I have met some of them and I communicate with them fairly often. Because of their customer focus, they read the DBSTalk.com forums VERY often. A very impressive amount of DIRECTV employees read the forums an impressive amount of the time. So I know they know. (And I have mentioned it a time or two.)


Tom - then why does a legitimate answer on the status of DLBs seem like its a state secret. What other issues are standing in the way of DLBs, coding, VOD, hardware issues? They could go a long way with "customer focus" with a real answer, even if its through back channels, on the number one or two requested feature.

If its true that they haven't decided yet, then shame on them for not being able to figure out a long term strategy on their premier DVR's feature set. Their flagship SD DVR, the R15, has been out a full 18 months and they still haven't decided on DLBs?


----------



## tiorio

I personally hope that this thread doesn't die. I know people are sick of seeing the various threads but if you don't like 'em, don't read 'em.

I now have 2 HR20s and the improvements since I got the first one during the first DTV promotion have been great, but having to DOWNGRADE capabilities from the existing (Tivo) hardware at the time to stay with DTV was hard to swallow...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Somehow, I don't think this thread will die. 

As for "if they are so customer focussed, why....", my impression is DIRECTV is very focussed on things they feel we will like even more.  

Earl has stated that DLB is currently not in the immediate plans, it's not a state secret. Not the news we want to hear today, but that is the news.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## anubys

Tom Robertson said:


> Earl has stated that DLB is not currently not in the immediate plans, it's not a state secret. Not the news we want to hear today, but that is the news.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


hey...what's with the double negative? does that mean it IS in the immediate plans?

are you a CSR?


----------



## Que

jaywdetroit said:


> I recommend to all that if you want DLBs, put something in your signature and watch this thread. Encourage newcomers to read it and vote. At this point, if we don't have DLB, then it is quite likely someone at D* had decided we aren't going to get it any time soon. Perhaps when/if the HR21 comes along they will design it into it from the start. But until then, be persistent, but not annoying. (Now if I can just follow my own advice.)


I wish we could get that letter going again. So everyone that wanted DLB could copy, print it out and mail to:

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

DVRs that have DLB

COX and Comcast has it with the Moto Box
Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB
S3 from TIVO Has DLB

I don't have time to research more. Maybe if they get enough that might move it to there "DO LIST."


----------



## Tom Robertson

anubys said:


> hey...what's with the double negative? does that mean it IS in the immediate plans?
> 
> are you a CSR?


Sorry, my bad. Happens sometimes, especially when I'm on the road. I've fixed my mistake.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MrDad0330

The only real disappointment for my moving into HD-DVR land was not having Dual Live Buffers! I have been in love with my Directv Tivos for years and I knew D would have a hard time matching how well thought out they are. With that said, I find my new HR20-100 very nice, it just is different and I have to get get used to it but you can't get used to not having DLB's. As many of you had said, it enabled me to take in two shows (mostly sports) at the same time without missing a beat. Of all the nice things about Tivo, that is what I felt was the biggest feat of all and surpassing stopping live TV, rewinding Live TV and all else. 

If D could manage to upgrade our units to have DLB's, I would forget about my Tivo's once and for all. At this point, if you take away the Mpeg 4 High Def, my Tivos win hands down. Add DLBs to the HR20 and my preference goes away from my Tivo's. 

I know the HR20 has more capabilites now and more down the road but DLBs (from a pure TV watching point) are the best option going for any DVR. Please DirecTV, consider it, I know "someone up their loves me" right?


----------



## ProfLonghair

Tom Robertson said:


> Somehow, I don't think this thread will die.
> 
> As for "if they are so customer focussed, why....", my impression is DIRECTV is very focussed on things they feel we will like even more.
> 
> Earl has stated that DLB is currently not in the immediate plans, it's not a state secret. Not the news we want to hear today, but that is the news.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The only things _possibly_ on the same plane as DBL would be VOD and Media Share. Media Share is almost done, and VOD was promised soon. What else are they working on that they feel we would like even more?


----------



## Monty23

MrDad0330 said:


> The only real disappointment for my moving into HD-DVR land was not having Dual Live Buffers! I have been in love with my Directv Tivos for years and I knew D would have a hard time matching how well thought out they are. With that said, I find my new HR20-100 very nice, it just is different and I have to get get used to it but you can't get used to not having DLB's. As many of you had said, it enabled me to take in two shows (mostly sports) at the same time without missing a beat. Of all the nice things about Tivo, that is what I felt was the biggest feat of all and surpassing stopping live TV, rewinding Live TV and all else.
> 
> If D could manage to upgrade our units to have DLB's, I would forget about my Tivo's once and for all. At this point, if you take away the Mpeg 4 High Def, my Tivos win hands down. Add DLBs to the HR20 and my preference goes away from my Tivo's.
> 
> I know the HR20 has more capabilites now and more down the road but DLBs (from a pure TV watching point) are the best option going for any DVR. Please DirecTV, consider it, I know "someone up their loves me" right?


+1


----------



## DblD_Indy

ProfLonghair said:


> The only things _possibly_ on the same plane as DBL would be VOD and Media Share. Media Share is almost done, and VOD was promised soon. What else are they working on that they feel we would like even more?


Ya! what else! LOL!

MOD- Music on Demand ?
FOD - Fax on Demand? (We are networked now so adding a printer should not be an issue)
WOD - Weather on Demand?


----------



## cygnusloop

DblD_Indy said:


> WOD - Weather on Demand?


I thought WOD was Waffles on Demand. Mmmmmm..... Waffles......
:grin:


----------



## jheda

BTW, all feature issues aside, welcome!!!!! and thx for joining!!!



MrDad0330 said:


> The only real disappointment for my moving into HD-DVR land was not having Dual Live Buffers! I have been in love with my Directv Tivos for years and I knew D would have a hard time matching how well thought out they are. With that said, I find my new HR20-100 very nice, it just is different and I have to get get used to it but you can't get used to not having DLB's. As many of you had said, it enabled me to take in two shows (mostly sports) at the same time without missing a beat. Of all the nice things about Tivo, that is what I felt was the biggest feat of all and surpassing stopping live TV, rewinding Live TV and all else.
> 
> If D could manage to upgrade our units to have DLB's, I would forget about my Tivo's once and for all. At this point, if you take away the Mpeg 4 High Def, my Tivos win hands down. Add DLBs to the HR20 and my preference goes away from my Tivo's.
> 
> I know the HR20 has more capabilites now and more down the road but DLBs (from a pure TV watching point) are the best option going for any DVR. Please DirecTV, consider it, I know "someone up their loves me" right?


----------



## premio

cygnusloop said:


> I thought WOD was Waffles on Demand. Mmmmmm..... Waffles......
> :grin:


MMMmmm Waffles and Fried Chicken.


----------



## MikeR7

I was going to post this in the other thread, but as I was writing it Earl closed it so I am bring it over here. It was in response to jheda's comment:

"You answer your own question. you only watch your team. One channel. Others, like myself, love to watch our team, and then between innings flip to a compettitors game; pause and flip back to our game ets; or between football and hockey, etc...last year flipping between a red sox game and a yankee game was just incredible viewing..."

My comment:

Funny you mention the Yankee - Red Sox flipping. Because of the DLB clamour, I decided to watch both the Yanks and Sox in HD yesterday at the same time, recording the Yanks and watching the Sox-Tigers live. When the Sox-Tigers went to commercial between innings, I switched over to the Yanks-Angels. I did this for three innings and because it works so well, I can't believe there is so much fuss about DLB. Granted, I never had a DLB box, so maybe I am missing something. Explain to me what the DLB experience would add that I did not have using the workaround?


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

I also would like to change my vote when I voted I had just gotten the HR20. Now I know it is not that big of deal. If I can not have DLB with 90 minute buffers I do not want it I am officially changing it to the third choice.


----------



## cygnusloop

Thanks, Earl, for listening, and making this a sticky.

I, for one, promise to keep my DLB comments, opinions, rants, etc... here in this one thread. In addition, I will refer any new users inquiring about said feature here.

For anyone that's interested, the conversation that led to this thread becoming a sticky can be found here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91447

And, again, thanks.


----------



## tiger2005

This is great! I didn't check out the forum much this weekend and was pretty shocked by what I came back to. After reading through all the other DLB posts, I refreshed and was getting worried because I couldn't find this poll. Final step, check out the stickies and BOOM!, instant smile.

As a side note, has anyone else verified whether the 2nd live buffer actually exists? There seems to be some disagreement on if it does actually exist in the current software. I printed out the user's instructions in order to confirm it, but I'm at work right now so that will have to wait until later.


----------



## jheda

First, thanks Earl, your are the consumate pro, for although you dont share our DLB passion, you empathasize with us and always keep us updated. We have no voice without you.

Second i also promise to keep my DLB comments, opinions, rants, etc... here in this one thread. In addition, I will refer any new users inquiring about said feature here.

Third thanks JayW for, like I loving the HR20 more then the feature, but keeping the feature dream alive.

Lastly, I want to post cygnusloops post that explains so well the etiology of the passion. Much better then I ever could:

*I can give you my take, I suppose. (I want to preface this by saying that I realize that this is "just TV", but this is a DBS forum, and here, TV is everything. I have a life, a family, a job, and am reasonably fulfilled, with or without TV. So take this in the context of a TV based forum.)

One reason is the sheer number of users that want it. That certainly is part of it. A very large number of HR20 lessees, came to this box from either SD DirecTivos, or the HR10.

Particularly in the case of the HR10, the users were essentially forced to upgrade if they wanted to get their LiL's in HD. So, they get this box (that didn't work very well at the time), and it was inexplicably missing what many feel is a key feature, and at that, for no good reason. The thing has dual tuners, and the capability to record two HD streams, how was it possible that the designers neglected to include DLB?

Second, (and the part that I don't feel you yet appreciate, BJ) is how this particular feature changed forever the way many of us watch TV at a very basic level.

While, for me, DLB is most missed for sports programming, it was a feature that I used on a daily basis. Sure, I recorded lots of programs for later viewing. In fact, I would say most of my family's viewing was done that way. Primetime programs, movies, kids shows, etc...

But, I also like to surf. That's how I would typically find new programs I wanted to record. To me, and many others, surfing with DLB is television nirvana, and the Tivo implementation was really good. When I first discovered this feature, it was one of those "where have you been all my life" kind of moments, akin to the first time I hooked up my HDTV. Absolute bliss.

So that's another part of it, passion.

I understand, BJ, that you don't share that passion, but to understand why this topic is such a hot button, you have to realize that many do feel it, deep in their gut.

Lastly, the biggest source of annoyance, I think, to those that don't care about, or are actively against DLB (yeah, I'm looking at you JeremyW ), is the sheer number of threads that pop up. So, why do these DLB threads tend to crop up on an almost daily basis? Because most people coming to the HR20 are coming from another DVR, and most of those DVR's had DLB. Whether or not the user knew to call it that.

Many, perhaps even most, of the DLB threads come from a new member, one that recently upgraded to the HR20, and the OP is often a very innocent question such as, "How do I switch tuners on the HR20?"

Someone replies, "You can't."

The new member, not knowing the history of the "Great DLB Wars" on this forum, goes off on a rant about the lack of dual buffers, as it is such an obvious feature of a dual tuner device, that most new users would never think to check ahead of time to see if it exists on the HR20.

And the flame wars begin..... again.....

Some new members get so PO'd about this (remember the passion part), they start spamming completely unrelated threads with their displeasure about the lack of DLB. Not being invested in this forum, they don't care that their actions are contrary to the goals of this forum, and many of its members. The moderators (rightly) have to step in to close threads, or ban users, and that's where it gets political.

This is why I think the idea to have ONE sticky thread for all things DLB is a great idea. When a new member posts one of these "innocent" questions, they can be referred to the sticky, and the thread can be closed before things get out of hand. Once on the sticky, the new member can rant their brains out to a sympathetic audience. No fuss, no muss. No spamming, no bans.

At least that's my take. Thanks for listening. *


----------



## jheda

Mike, outline us first the exact steps you went through yesterday to perform that. Then it will be easier to respond.



MikeR7 said:


> I was going to post this in the other thread, but as I was writing it Earl closed it so I am bring it over here. It was in response to jheda's comment:
> 
> "You answer your own question. you only watch your team. One channel. Others, like myself, love to watch our team, and then between innings flip to a compettitors game; pause and flip back to our game ets; or between football and hockey, etc...last year flipping between a red sox game and a yankee game was just incredible viewing..."
> 
> My comment:
> 
> Funny you mention the Yankee - Red Sox flipping. Because of the DLB clamour, I decided to watch both the Yanks and Sox in HD yesterday at the same time, recording the Yanks and watching the Sox-Tigers live. When the Sox-Tigers went to commercial between innings, I switched over to the Yanks-Angels. I did this for three innings and because it works so well, I can't believe there is so much fuss about DLB. Granted, I never had a DLB box, so maybe I am missing something. Explain to me what the DLB experience would add that I did not have using the workaround?


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> They KNOW there is a population that wants DLB, however at this time, they have decided to work on other features of the system.


Earl, Thanks for all your help!

Can you please tell us (if you can) what other features they are working on.

Would it help, (to get DLB on there list) if someone would write something up about how much we want DLB. Also maybe list the DVRs that have DLB. People that wanted it could print it out and mail it to D*.

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

^^ this would be the best address to send it too right??


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> Can you please tell us (if you can) what other features they are working on.


I can't



Que said:


> Would it help, (to get DLB on there list) if someone would write something up about how much we want DLB. Also maybe list the DVRs that have DLB. People that wanted it could print it out and mail it to D*.
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550
> 
> ^^ this would be the best address to send it too right??


Can't think of any other address to write to.


----------



## ATARI

Yes, DLB -- Just do it!!


----------



## jonaswan2

Que, you could send it to:

c/o Chase Carey
2230 East Imperial Highway
El Segundo, CA 90245

Go to the post office and make sure that it's a priority letter, and make sure that it's registered, delivery confirmed, signature confirmed, and that it's restricted.

And then send another letter to:

c/o Romulo Pontual (CTO)
2230 East Imperial Highway
El Segundo, CA 90245

And do all of the above. 

That is the only possible way that you can be 100% certain that the right people will get your letter. 

Then they'll most likely shred it.


----------



## MikeR7

jheda said:


> Mike, outline us first the exact steps you went through yesterday to perform that. Then it will be easier to respond.[/Q]
> 
> OK, at 12 noon CDT when the games came on I went to whichever channel had the the Yanks. I pressed record. Then I went to the channel that had the Tigers/Sox on and watched the first half inning. When it went to commercial, I pressed list, the Yanks were highlighted so I pressed select. I fast forwarded to the first pitch, and watch 2 minutes and pressed pause. I hit prev channel and watched the next half inning of the Sox. After that half inning I pressed list and select and watched more of the Yanks, 30 sec skipping when appropriate. After two minutes, I went back to the Sox. ETC.
> 
> I suppose I could have recorded both games and been able to skip ahead on either when I wanted to keeping the games at approximately the same inning, but did not test that.


----------



## anubys

MikeR7 said:


> jheda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, outline us first the exact steps you went through yesterday to perform that. Then it will be easier to respond.[/Q]
> 
> OK, at 12 noon CDT when the games came on I went to whichever channel had the the Yanks. I pressed record. Then I went to the channel that had the Tigers/Sox on and watched the first half inning. When it went to commercial, I pressed list, the Yanks were highlighted so I pressed select. I fast forwarded to the first pitch, and watch 2 minutes and pressed pause. I hit prev channel and watched the next half inning of the Sox. After that half inning I pressed list and select and watched more of the Yanks, 30 sec skipping when appropriate. After two minutes, I went back to the Sox. ETC.
> 
> I suppose I could have recorded both games and been able to skip ahead on either when I wanted to keeping the games at approximately the same inning, but did not test that.
> 
> 
> 
> wow...that is just as easy as pressing the down-arrow to switch between tuners on the Tivo!
Click to expand...


----------



## boltjames

jaywdetroit said:


> I recommend to all that if you want DLBs, put something in your signature and watch this thread. Encourage newcomers to read it and vote. At this point, if we don't have DLB, then it is quite likely someone at D* had decided we aren't going to get it any time soon. Perhaps when/if the HR21 comes along they will design it into it from the start. But until then, be persistent, but not annoying. (Now if I can just follow my own advice.)


I am clearly on the fence. I enjoyed DLB when I had my HR10 but now am enjoying living without the stress of it on the HR20.

As such, my vote is for sale. Make me an offer and I'll be happy to listen. PayPal is an accepted form of payment.










BJ


----------



## jheda

OK anubys no sarcasm neccessary . But anubys's point is simple: even if that worked, (and it didnt for me when i tested this AM but i will try it again) the general consensus is that it would not be difficult for DLB to be implemented and avoid any and all workarounds. In other words, we dont want to rent from Netflix, we want VOD. 

Or, put by another poster

" Even the current workaround is tedious. Recording two programs works but you CAN'T use the PREV channel button to toggle between the two programs. One of them always defaults to LIVE.
What is the purpose of the Single Live Buffer if it doesn't even remember the Pause Point? Do the developers really believe that the ideal scenario is to force the user to Rewind back to the point they left off?
Sure, if you want to toggle back and forth you can go into the Playlist every time and select the other program. Tedious and unnecessary. User unfriendliness like that needs to be fixed."


----------



## jheda

I truly want to believe your using the term "stress " tongue in cheek"


boltjames said:


> I am clearly on the fence. I enjoyed DLB when I had my HR10 but now am enjoying living without the stress of it on the HR20.
> 
> As such, my vote is for sale. Make me an offer and I'll be happy to listen. PayPal is an accepted form of payment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJ


----------



## cygnusloop

jheda said:


> I truly want to believe your using the term "stress " tongue in cheek"


He's not. He and I stayed up most of the night a couple of days ago debating the point....
BJ, you crack me up!:grin:


----------



## MikeR7

The workaround doesn't work for you? Oh, you'd think it would work for everyone. By the way, the unit I did this on is a -100B. Maybe it is a special box in more ways than just being black. :lol: 

I'll try in on my -700S when I get home too, just for comparison purposes.


----------



## MikeR7

BTW - I did not find this tedious, but that probably comes from my lack of a DLB experience. I guess you can't miss something that you've never had.


----------



## cygnusloop

MikeR7 said:


> I guess you can't miss something that you've never had.


And _that _is precisely the point.


----------



## jheda

Mike you make a good point, in that most people who want DLB miss it from having it before. (and most are huge sports fans)

In fact im curious if anyone who has never had DLB is a DLB proponent?


----------



## MikeR7

cygnusloop said:


> And _that _is precisely the point.


But I do not desire DLB the way some of you do because it was never promised in the boxes that I have bought. I would think you guys would send back the ones that you have if you aren't satisfied with what the provider has provided and go to someone that can. Seriously. Then again if you want everything else DTV provides that others don't, then you have a tough choice..... What were the lyrics of that Rolling Stones song again?:lol:


----------



## MikeR7

No, you can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
And if you try sometime you find 
You get what you need

Ah , the old need vs want question:lol:


----------



## cygnusloop

MikeR7 said:


> But I do not desire DLB the way some of you do because it was never promised in the boxes that I have bought. I would think you guys would send back the ones that you have if you aren't satisfied with what the provider has provided and go to someone that can. Seriously. Then again if you want everything else DTV provides that others don't, then you have a tough choice..... What were the lyrics of that Rolling Stones song again?:lol:


You, and the Stones are right. I did in fact know that the HR20 was lacking DLB when I signed on. Brass tacks - content is king. But, it is just very hard to swallow the loss of what many feel is a key feature in a box that was billed as an upgrade. Correct, it was never directly promised on the HR20, but by calling it an upgrade, in a way, the promise is implicit, and many feel duped.


----------



## jheda

simply put, and not to be repetitive, I nievely did NOT know the hr20 didnt have DLB when upgrading from my directivo...It was a feature i loved but i couldnt tell u what it was called.

However, Ive said this before; I love the hr20 more then i miss the feature. But i miss the feature, and untill we hear its NeVER going to happen, Ill discuss it openly, as long as it is in no way to the detriment of this site....



MikeR7 said:


> But I do not desire DLB the way some of you do because it was never promised in the boxes that I have bought. I would think you guys would send back the ones that you have if you aren't satisfied with what the provider has provided and go to someone that can. Seriously. Then again if you want everything else DTV provides that others don't, then you have a tough choice..... What were the lyrics of that Rolling Stones song again?:lol:


----------



## jaywdetroit

Que - May I suggest that perhaps you add some info to your first post in this thread explaining DLB and the history of the discussion on DBSTalk? 

This way, newcomers coming to this thread will have the "low-down".

Thank you Earl for making this a sticky!


----------



## boltjames

cygnusloop said:


> He's not. He and I stayed up most of the night a couple of days ago debating the point....
> BJ, you crack me up!:grin:


I'm glad _someone _on here has a sense of humor. Let me ask you, did you develop it on your own or did someone approve it via a vote?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

cygnusloop said:


> You, and the Stones are right. I did in fact know that the HR20 was lacking DLB when I signed on. Brass tacks - content is king. But, it is just very hard to swallow the loss of what many feel is a key feature in a box that was billed as an upgrade. Correct, it was never directly promised on the HR20, but by calling it an upgrade, in a way, the promise is implicit, and many feel duped.


MFD. Can we add that to the approved acronym sticky? Do we need to take a vote, or can we start using MFD all over the forums without concern?

BJ


----------



## DblD_Indy

jheda said:


> simply put, and not to be repetitive, I naively did NOT know the hr20 didn't have DLB when upgrading from my directivo...It was a feature i loved but i couldn't tell u what it was called.
> 
> However, Ive said this before; I love the HR20 more then i miss the feature. But i miss the feature, and until we hear its Never going to happen, Ill discuss it openly, as long as it is in no way to the detriment of this site....


+1

The upgrade issue has often been a key point in my DLB argument. D*TV will tell you to your face that the unit is an upgrade, but in any upgrade situation you would expect the *same* but *better *features.

The best example might be that the automobile has a radio that has AM / FM and sometimes XM or Sirius built-in.

Could you imagine the rant should GM have decided that they DROP AM for XM...? "Well now you got one better... XM, you don't need AM?

As mentioned we can write D*TV _"Then they'll most likely shred it"_ or we can take *$$$ *out of their pockets.

Canceling the auto renewal feature for NFL-ST does not say that you won't get it, just that they can not auto charge you for somthing... They are already spending the NFL $$$ and showing a cut in income may push the point across to them. Since 51,283 views of this poll and 75.41% of the the votes being pro DLB doesn't seem to have bothered them. Can you imagine the result if 1,000 users called up one week and said I am not certain I want NFL-ST, hold off on the debit until we see about DLB.

I like the sticky, but could it be that having a single DLB thread is like putting all the crazies out back to argue among themselves? I agree that we don't need one-hundred DLB polls and thousands of random DLB threads. I just feel someone with an individual DLB idea should be allowed to present it alone and let it stand or fall on its own merit; should it meet forum rules and etiquette.

I could not have imagined I would have gotten 1,145 views in 24 hours on my NFL-ST post. I also doubt it would have gotten the same response if it would have been a part of a single thread based on a single topic. I for one have seen Tom bounce many random and argumentative thread. I was terribly excited that he took part in my NFL-ST discussion, and was happy to hear his positive comments about the way the idea was presented even if he did not agree with my stance.

So, yea sticky....

And as for the Vikings fan who "can't get what ya want"... I have been through many crappy seasons with the COLTS. From the Glory of the Mayflower Vans to Jeff George, a 3-13 with Peyton at QB and an eternity almosts. But, yes if you wait long enough, and fight hard enough, YOU CAN GET WHAT YOU WANT ! 
INDIANAPOLIS COLTS SUPER BOWL XLI CHAMPS ! Sorry E' Man! Karma, ya know...Go Cubbies? LOL! 

So, as Jim Rome says: "bang the monkey", put a hold on Sunday Ticket™ and tell em you want your DLB and now!

OUT!


----------



## biggie4852

Installed was yesterday and I have been trying to navigate this box all day. I did not realize how much I use this and other TIVO function that DTV did not incorporate in their software until it was gone. I miss my folder option for recorded programs and the ability to see when a program was first broadcast so I can watch them in order. I hate this GUI it is so frustrating, had H10-250 for last two years. I almost want to go back to it but everything must change in time I will figure out and it will be ok but for now   .


----------



## slumkid

Que said:


> Should be Dual LIVE buffers.
> 
> I'd like to know what others think about this. Thanks!
> 
> How *Dtivo works
> 
> HR20 Does NOT save your pause point. Maybe soon in a update.


DLB is a MUST.

I'm a new HR20 owner (2 weeks), and while I am satisfied with the box, I am not thrilled. Some things I like better, but in more ways, I feel like it's a step backwards from my TIVO HD. In general, the HR20 is just "clunkier" - less user friendly and more buggy. (What's up with the choppy FF and RW, and why do i have to sometimes press enter when manually tuning to a channel, and other times I don't - WEIRD). RF remote doesn't work, but no big deal, the IR has pretty good range.

I knew this box didn't have dual live buffers, but I bought it because I want to get the new channels. I thought I would adjust to it, and use the "workaround". We'll I miss the DLB a lot more than I thought I would, and the workaround really isn't one.

I would imagine a lot more people will be switching in the next few months, and I'm sure this board will be FLOODED with people missing DLB.


----------



## cygnusloop

biggie4852 said:


> Installed was yesterday and I have been trying to navigate this box all day. I did not realize how much I use this and other TIVO function that DTV did not incorporate in their software until it was gone. I miss my folder option for recorded programs and the ability to see when a program was first broadcast so I can watch them in order. I hate this GUI it is so frustrating, had H10-250 for last two years. I almost want to go back to it but everything must change in time I will figure out and it will be ok but for now   .


Hang in there biggie! You will get used to the GUI in time, and you may even discover some features of the HR20 that you like better than the Tivo. One touch record, and two touch series links (that's season pass in Tivo-ese), come to mind.

Tivo to HR20 Survival Guide

Undocumented HR20 Tips & Tricks

And of course, :welcome_s to the forum.


----------



## cygnusloop

slumkid said:


> I would imagine a lot more people will be switching in the next few months, and I'm sure this board will be FLOODED with people missing DLB.


Did ya notice that this is now a 781 post thread? 

And that is only a fraction of the DLB posts that have popped up here since last September.

Feel free to rant about it all you like, just try to keep it in this thread, unless it a truly independent topic.

And welcome to the forum. There are many very helpful and very smart people here.


----------



## cygnusloop

DblD_Indy said:


> I like the sticky, but could it be that having a single DLB thread is like putting all the crazies out back to argue among themselves? I agree that we don't need one-hundred DLB polls and thousands of random DLB threads. I just feel someone with an individual DLB idea should be allowed to present it alone and let it stand or fall on its own merit; should it meet forum rules and etiquette.


I get your point DblD. I think if there is a truly independent topic that somehow relates to DLB, it may deserve its own thread. But that will ultimately be for the mods to decide.

I think the sticky is necessary to have a place to send new users to get themselves up to speed on the current state of things before they unwittingly stir up a hornets nest...again....

There is certainly nothing in place to stop anyone that feels the need to start a thread from doing so. But with the sticky, I think the mods will feel a little more freedom to close/delete the threads that serve no purpose other than venting or bashing. Come here for that.

Is it a perfect solution? Of course not. Is it better that what we have been dealing with recently, IMHO, yes.


----------



## jheda

Biggie give it time, i promise u will enjoy the speed and features of the hr20. The playroom has the sddirecttivo and when i go back to it its slow, clunky, and i wouldnt trade it back. I couldnt even remember how to record with it! AS i have said, love the hr20, miss the dlb.

Cygnuloop gave you great links. enjoy. and come here often for help.

QUOTE=slumkid;999465]DLB is a MUST.

I'm a new HR20 owner (2 weeks), and while I am satisfied with the box, I am not thrilled. Some things I like better, but in more ways, I feel like it's a step backwards from my TIVO HD. In general, the HR20 is just "clunkier" - less user friendly and more buggy. (What's up with the choppy FF and RW, and why do i have to sometimes press enter when manually tuning to a channel, and other times I don't - WEIRD). RF remote doesn't work, but no big deal, the IR has pretty good range.

I knew this box didn't have dual live buffers, but I bought it because I want to get the new channels. I thought I would adjust to it, and use the "workaround". We'll I miss the DLB a lot more than I thought I would, and the workaround really isn't one.

I would imagine a lot more people will be switching in the next few months, and I'm sure this board will be FLOODED with people missing DLB.[/QUOTE]


----------



## DblD_Indy

Could this be my best chance at getting what I want?

http://www.amazon.com/Sunpentown-Dual-Buffer-Shoe-Polisher/dp/B000REKKAY

:-(

_Fine Print:
"The link above is not marking for any product or any other site... Just a joke"_ Ha, Ha !


----------



## Que

jaywdetroit said:


> Que - May I suggest that perhaps you add some info to your first post in this thread explaining DLB and the history of the discussion on DBSTalk?
> 
> This way, newcomers coming to this thread will have the "low-down".
> 
> Thank you Earl for making this a sticky!


What do you want me to change/add?

I have:

*How DLB works on most other DVRs*



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.





> *HR20 does not save your pause point.*There really isn't a good workaround.


*List of some DVRs with DLB*

COX and Comcast has it with the Moto Box
Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB
S3 from TIVO Has DLB
HR10-250
SD-DVR40
Hughes GXCEBOTD

*Someone needs to write something up on how much we want DLB, list of all DVRs with DLB. Then people that want DLB can copy and print it out. *

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


----------



## jheda

I pm'd u... but just a little history, so the newbie when they open the stickie gets the big picture... and so they dont go with ugly threads, but add to this intelligent one...



Que said:


> What do you want me to change/add?
> 
> I have:
> 
> *How DLB works on most other DVRs*
> 
> *List of some DVRs with DLB*
> 
> COX and Comcast has it with the Moto Box
> Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB
> S3 from TIVO Has DLB
> HR10-250
> SD-DVR40
> Hughes GXCEBOTD
> 
> *Someone needs to write something up on how much we want DLB, list of all DVRs with DLB. Then people that want DLB can copy and print it out. *
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


----------



## Scooter22

I thought I'd chime in with my vote (and pad my healthy post count of 2 ) and say that I would love to see DLB as well. I just received my first HR20 last week and I must say, it's better than I was expecting, but I sure do miss the DLB though. It's all TiVos fault!! Damn them. heh

Scooter


----------



## cygnusloop

Scooter22 said:


> I thought I'd chime in with my vote (and pad my healthy post count of 2 ) and say that I would love to see DLB as well. I just received my first HR20 last week and I must say, it's better than I was expecting, but I sure do miss the DLB though. It's all TiVos fault!! Damn them. heh
> 
> Scooter


:welcome_s to the forum Scooter22!

And, also, welcome to our (not so) little DLB support group here. Glad to have you.


----------



## wagman

I am new to this forum and I am new to the HR20 (yesterday).

I had D* come out and install the new 5LNB dish and an HR20.

I have an HR10-250 that I would not let go of right now, so I now have both installed and can make easy comparisons.

I can tell you I used the DLB function all of the time...and I mean whenever I was watching live TV, I was pausing one tuner to scout the guide on the other tuner and watching a couple of programs at once. I know you can just record one program, but if I got bored, I would intentional change the channel and go for something else.

I had no idea the HR20 lacked this feature, and I spent most of last night trying to switch tuners (I see you all nodding, because you have experienced the frustration and can sympathize with me). 

The DLB is, far and away, my favorite extra on a DVR. I say it's an extra because it is not the primary purpose of the box.

I am glad I kept my tivo, because I can probably get adjusted to it for most things, but the boxes are switching during football season.

Oh, by the way, what is up with the 30 second skip feature on the HR20? It is more like a 30 second fast forward. The backwards skip actually skips. Is there a way to change the forward skip to actual skip? I hate to hit the skip button 5 times and wait for it to forward through for 10-12 seconds.

I am with whoever thinks it is a good idea to put the pressure on D* (but, I have already ordered NFL ST, so I can't squeeze them that way).

Keep up the good works.

wagman


----------



## radamo

DLB is a must have. It is one of my favorite ways to watch sporting events... It can't be that hard to program that the DTV folks can't figure a way to do it...


----------



## jheda

First and foremost, wagman, welcome!!!! Please go thru the welcome thread and enjoy. Print the tips and tricks.

Also when you truly come to enjoy the forum, consider joining for a nominal $15. Well worth it IMHO. The mods hate when i push the club, but its a great value...you lose the advertising on the top, more PM space, etc.

Yes I nodded as i read your excellent post. That was me exactly. I thought like you my hr20 was broken. I couldnt believe i was "upgrading" to a reciever that was missing such a feature.

But IMHO the hr20 *IS *an upgrade. Its a wonderful DVR. You will love the one touch recording etc, and its GUI. Many features are extremely exciting.

But to date nothing has told me that DLB has to be excluded to make this perfect. So we, repectfully, press on.



wagman said:


> I am new to this forum and I am new to the HR20 (yesterday).
> 
> I had D* come out and install the new 5LNB dish and an HR20.
> 
> I have an HR10-250 that I would not let go of right now, so I now have both installed and can make easy comparisons.
> 
> I can tell you I used the DLB function all of the time...and I mean whenever I was watching live TV, I was pausing one tuner to scout the guide on the other tuner and watching a couple of programs at once. I know you can just record one program, but if I got bored, I would intentional change the channel and go for something else.
> 
> I had no idea the HR20 lacked this feature, and I spent most of last night trying to switch tuners (I see you all nodding, because you have experienced the frustration and can sympathize with me).
> 
> The DLB is, far and away, my favorite extra on a DVR. I say it's an extra because it is not the primary purpose of the box.
> 
> I am glad I kept my tivo, because I can probably get adjusted to it for most things, but the boxes are switching during football season.
> 
> Oh, by the way, what is up with the 30 second skip feature on the HR20? It is more like a 30 second fast forward. The backwards skip actually skips. Is there a way to change the forward skip to actual skip? I hate to hit the skip button 5 times and wait for it to forward through for 10-12 seconds.
> 
> I am with whoever thinks it is a good idea to put the pressure on D* (but, I have already ordered NFL ST, so I can't squeeze them that way).
> 
> Keep up the good works.
> 
> wagman


----------



## jheda

Unless I'm wrong, you now agree that without recording both shows, your workaround does not pause on the nonrecorded viewing, correct? In other words, when you hit previous from the recorded to the buffered show, you are brought to the live point, and not where you last left it?

Thanks MIKER7 for testing through this....

[


MikeR7 said:


> jheda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, outline us first the exact steps you went through yesterday to perform that. Then it will be easier to respond.[/Q]
> 
> OK, at 12 noon CDT when the games came on I went to whichever channel had the the Yanks. I pressed record. Then I went to the channel that had the Tigers/Sox on and watched the first half inning. When it went to commercial, I pressed list, the Yanks were highlighted so I pressed select. I fast forwarded to the first pitch, and watch 2 minutes and pressed pause. I hit prev channel and watched the next half inning of the Sox. After that half inning I pressed list and select and watched more of the Yanks, 30 sec skipping when appropriate. After two minutes, I went back to the Sox. ETC.
> 
> I suppose I could have recorded both games and been able to skip ahead on either when I wanted to keeping the games at approximately the same inning, but did not test that.
Click to expand...


----------



## shelland

I'm scheduled for my first HR20 install next Monday. It will be replacing an H10 (purchased from Robert!) in the HT room, so adding DVR capability to that TV will be great. We'll still have the HR10-250 in the Living Room. I do use the dual buffer a lot - primarily watching sporting events. I quite often will pause a game on one tuner, then go surf around on the other tuner, come back to the original and un-pause it. That definitely includes NFL season with ST - I pause the Vikes game, go surf the other channels to see what's going on, then go back to the Vikes and un-pause.

Since I'll still have the Tivo (for the time being), that will still be an option if I'm watching in the living room. Looking forward to messing with the new box, and the ability to get Twins games in HD on FSN-HD! (plus any other MPEG-4 channels as they become available)


----------



## MikeR7

jheda said:


> Unless I'm wrong, you now agree that without recording both shows, your workaround does not pause on the nonrecorded viewing, correct? In other words, when you hit previous from the recorded to the buffered show, you are brought to the live point, and not where you last left it?
> 
> Thanks MIKER7 for testing through this....
> 
> [Actually, I don't want the non-recorded show paused, because if I did, I'd have to 30 second skip through the commercials on that tuner to get back to live.
> 
> I don't think that is what you wanted me to test on the -700.
> 
> Anyway, I was watching a recorded show on the -700 and paused it to go to a live show for awhile. By mistake instead of going to list and selecting the recorded show and play, I hit the previous and it took me to the pause point in the recorded show and actually started playing from that point without any other button pushes. That is even nicer.


----------



## jheda

Yes it definitely remembers the pause point with the recorded show. Its the nonrecorded show, where we would like it to hold the pause point, so we can start where we left off..


----------



## MikeR7

jheda said:


> Yes it definitely remembers the pause point with the recorded show. Its the nonrecorded show, where we would like it to hold the pause point, so we can start where we left off..


I think you can see from my original scenario that I don't think that I would like that. You'd have to skip through the commercials then. If you want two recording buffers, why don't you just record both games?


----------



## BrettStah

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can see from my original scenario that I don't think that I would like that. You'd have to skip through the commercials then. If you want two recording buffers, why don't you just record both games?


If you don't want it to remember the paused location, they you would simply not pause before switching to the other tuner, right? And users who do want it to remember the paused location could pause before switching.


----------



## MikeR7

BrettStah said:


> If you don't want it to remember the paused location, they you would simply not pause before switching to the other tuner, right? And users who do want it to remember the paused location could pause before switching.


Yes, I guess so. But I seem to be missing something that DLB provides that I just can't understand since I've never had a DLB box.:nono:


----------



## christo76

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can see from my original scenario that I don't think that I would like that. You'd have to skip through the commercials then. If you want two recording buffers, why don't you just record both games?


Why not record both games??

Two reasons:
1) the massive amount of hard drive space it would take
2) *more importantly*, What happens if there is extra innings? Or in football, overtime? *You will lose the end of at least 1 of the games.*

As for not pausing the live game so you don't have to skip through commercials... thats there the Tivo SKIP was so great. Fraction of a second and you've skipped past 5-6 commercials. Much better then having to worry about tuning back into the live show so you don't have to deal with back skipping/rw.

Yes, using the Prev button will get you back and forth to pause points on 2 recorded shows easily, like pressing Live TV on tv (actually I never used that, just pressed up or down on the center button). But that means you can't surf between multiple games. I.e., Keep one tuner on Packers/Brewers and flip back and forth with the Bears until half-time, then switch that tuner to Lions and flip back and forth with Lions and Pack, then back to Bears 20 min later.

I really doubt I am the only one who watches sports like that... and loved Tivo for showing it to me


----------



## Meklos

MikeR7 said:


> I think you can see from my original scenario that I don't think that I would like that. You'd have to skip through the commercials then. If you want two recording buffers, why don't you just record both games?


Because I only want to have to allocate the HD space for the two 90 minute buffers (which are already allocated) and thus prevent anything from being inadvertently deleted due to max disk space.... instead of pressing record on what the guide says will be two 3-hour (or more) HD programs.

I'm not going back further than the stock buffer, so why should I have to allocate the space to record more than that? If I'm not mistaken, disk allocation decisions are made as soon as you press record on a program, not when it actually runs out of space. It has to free up enough room to fulfill the recording request.

Also, it's a management thing. I don't want to have to go back and clean up all the recordings of the stuff that I was watching semi-live, that I will never watch again.


----------



## Monty23

The whole problem is that if you've never owned a Tivo with DLB (and used the feature), you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it. All the "work arounds" will never replace a one button push to instantly switch back and forth between the two tuners, each with its own buffer. It's like 100 years ago having to hand crank your car to start it then having someone with electric start trying to explain how nice it is to have. The hand crank works........ but ............ Also, I can't understand why some people are against DLB. If you don't need or want it don't use it. I'm sure that some features you may want or use I don't care about but I'm glad they're there for you. Just my 2c for today.


----------



## Que

People have found out the pause point the the HR20, works sometimes and sometimes doesn't work at all.


----------



## MikeR7

Monty23 said:


> The whole problem is that if you've never owned a Tivo with DLB (and used the feature), you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it. All the "work arounds" will never replace a one button push to instantly switch back and forth between the two tuners, each with its own buffer. It's like 100 years ago having to hand crank your car to start it then having someone with electric start trying to explain how nice it is to have. The hand crank works........ but ............ Also, I can't understand why some people are against DLB. If you don't need or want it don't use it. I'm sure that some features you may want or use I don't care about but I'm glad they're there for you. Just my 2c for today.


I've never said that I am against DLB. And you are right that it is a problem that I've never experienced DLB. So you guys have me convinced. For sure I am going to acquire another -700 to run in parallel with my current one down stairs. I'll have double storage, and double DLB!!:lol:


----------



## RunnerFL

christo76 said:


> Why not record both games??
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1) the massive amount of hard drive space it would take
> 2) *more importantly*, What happens if there is extra innings? Or in football, overtime? *You will lose the end of at least 1 of the games.*


1. Delete the recordings when the games are over.
2. Pad your recordings, nothing missed.


----------



## raott

Monty23 said:


> The whole problem is that if you've never owned a Tivo with DLB (and used the feature), you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it.


Not just Tivo and the older D* boxes with Tivo, but Cable (with the Moto boxes) and Dish have it as well.



Monty23 said:


> Also, I can't understand why some people are against DLB. If you don't need or want it don't use it. I'm sure that some features you may want or use I don't care about but I'm glad they're there for you. Just my 2c for today.


I can't understand those who would actually be opposed to it either. Why would they not want the D* DVR to be the best out there if that is the service they have. I can understand those who don't use it and would like D* to focus getting other advertised issues first, but I do not understand the individuals who are actually opposed to it and show up at almost every DLB thread.


----------



## boltjames

Monty23 said:


> The whole problem is that if you've never owned a Tivo with DLB (and used the feature), you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it. All the "work arounds" will never replace a one button push to instantly switch back and forth between the two tuners, each with its own buffer. It's like 100 years ago having to hand crank your car to start it then having someone with electric start trying to explain how nice it is to have. The hand crank works........ but ............ Also, I can't understand why some people are against DLB. If you don't need or want it don't use it. I'm sure that some features you may want or use I don't care about but I'm glad they're there for you. Just my 2c for today.


Last night, I was watching the end of the All Star Game and the end of Return To Blue Lagoon simultaneously.

In order to see the end of the All Star Game, I had to jump away from Return To Blue Lagoon just as the girl was swimming naked in the lagoon. With no buffer, I couldn't back up and see her nips pointing skyward in high definition.

Did I pout? Did I cry? Did I curse D* to the high heavens? Nope. Know what I did?

I went to bed.

BJ


----------



## jheda

Thats the sadest DVR story i ever heard...no DVR should ever deny you nips!!!!!!!


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> Thats the sadest DVR story i ever heard...no DVR should ever deny you nips!!!!!!!


True. The tragedy of DON is something I think the pro-DLB and anti-DLB factions can agree upon.










VOS-CE:E: Please add to the approved acronyms list.

BJ


----------



## cygnusloop

:thats: :thats: !rolling !rolling !rolling


----------



## raott

RunnerFL said:


> 1. Delete the recordings when the games are over.
> 2. Pad your recordings, nothing missed.


Or, D* could just add the feature that almost every other provider has.

We all know there are workarounds, and has been discussed time after time, they are far less convenient.


----------



## radamo

Monty23 said:


> The whole problem is that if you've never owned a Tivo with DLB (and used the feature), you don't know what you're missing because you've never had it. All the "work arounds" will never replace a one button push to instantly switch back and forth between the two tuners, each with its own buffer. It's like 100 years ago having to hand crank your car to start it then having someone with electric start trying to explain how nice it is to have. The hand crank works........ but ............ Also, I can't understand why some people are against DLB. If you don't need or want it don't use it. I'm sure that some features you may want or use I don't care about but I'm glad they're there for you. Just my 2c for today.


And there in lies the key point... a single key press to switch between shows was a thing of beauty in its simplicity. Having to bounce between shows that are recording is a lame attempt at trying to get to the same end... IMHO...
RA


----------



## RunnerFL

raott said:


> Or, D* could just add the feature that almost every other provider has.


And run the risk of totally de-stabilizing the box? Or having to shrink the buffer size from 90 mins to 30mins? No thanks...

For all we know adding DLB would take the box back to where it was when it first came out. It's way too stable now to risk that IMO.


----------



## christo76

RunnerFL said:


> And run the risk of totally de-stabilizing the box? Or having to shrink the buffer size from 90 mins to 30mins? No thanks...
> 
> For all we know adding DLB would take the box back to where it was when it first came out. It's way too stable now to risk that IMO.


What would that say about the box then?

And why would it have to shrink the buffer? Haven't some others shown, or at least found that sometimes, the system does buffer both tuners anyways... You just can't get it to show the other buffer.

As for early suggestions to simply pad the recording. Is that fully working now? I know it wasn't before, not too mention ... How much padding? How much more space do I need to use? I don't need it to keep 5 hours of HD space, or rather 10 hrs for 2 games, when the buffer space would work better.

Not too mention the example I gave for those with MLB EI or NFL ST, who may have 1 main game and 2-3 other games they pick and choose from.

Lets say I have Game A, B and C. My main one is Game A. So with Tivo I can do this...

A for 10 min. Pause
B for 5 min Pause
A for 15 Skipping thru commercials or between snaps Pause
B for 10 same as above, then halftime hits or crawl showed C in Red zone...
C Instant Pause
A for 15 Pause
C for 10
B for 10 picked up at live, pause
A for 20

ETC...

I can watch 3+ games, 1 complete, and 2 near complete. Total button presses would be 2 per switch, with couple more when changed to Game C. No delving into record options to pad time and hoping it works. No wasting precious HD space.

Scenario also works great for multiple shows... say 3 news channels ABC, NBC, FOX checking for weather or hot news and you don't care to sit through fluff stories, so you pause and jump to other news to see what they have, then jump back to skip through and look for stories that interest you.

Prior to having the NBC weather channel OTA, the above method was how I got my weather. Pause it on news, then others shows, then go back and FW till I saw weather map.


----------



## boltjames

radamo said:


> And there in lies the key point... a single key press to switch between shows was a thing of beauty in its simplicity. Having to bounce between shows that are recording is a lame attempt at trying to get to the same end... IMHO...
> RA


D* doesn't want you bouncing between shows, especially during commercials. That's the issue.

They have to make a DVR-based viewing audience look more appealing to a frightened advertising populous, and eliminating one of the toys that allow DVR owners to entertain themselves during commercial breaks is a sure-fire way to make money fly more freely out of advertisers pockets.

If you compare the HR10 to the HR20 from a standpoint of exposing viewers to commercials, the HR20 was seemingly _built _for that purpose. Not so easy to jump anymore; you have to 1-2-3-4 FF. Not so easy to 30 second sklip anymore; have to watch it fly by your eyes. Not so easy to jump off a commercial anymore; doing so kills the buffer and increases the risk of missing the bit back from the commercial break.

Lease fees, purchase fees, VOD, 90 minute buffer, lack of DLB......we're watching more commercials and we're paying more to do so. That's D*'s objective, not making sure we have all the toys at our disposal to circumvent exposure to ads.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

BJ


----------



## jheda

Runner, is there any factual basis to your opinion? Apparantly the 2 buffers ALREADY exists as have been posted by people far more technically intelligent then me. Will adding VOD, mediashare, or other planned features some dont care about destabilize the box? Or has it done so already? Will 2, 30 minute buffers STABiLIZE the box more than one 90 minute buffer?

I have no idea.

The purpose of this sticky is to flush out those issues with knowledge, for the fun of it. D* has not said publically "sorry, DLB will cause ---- to occur and therefore no can do".



RunnerFL said:


> And run the risk of totally de-stabilizing the box? Or having to shrink the buffer size from 90 mins to 30mins? No thanks...
> 
> For all we know adding DLB would take the box back to where it was when it first came out. It's way too stable now to risk that IMO.


----------



## jheda

Sadly BJ, you may be right. I am wishing you are not...

QUOTE=boltjames;1002680]D* doesn't want you bouncing between shows, especially during commercials. That's the issue.

They have to make a DVR-based viewing audience look more appealing to a frightened advertising populous, and eliminating one of the toys that allow DVR owners to entertain themselves during commercial breaks is a sure-fire way to make money fly more freely out of advertisers pockets.

If you compare the HR10 to the HR20 from a standpoint of exposing viewers to commercials, the HR20 was seemingly _built _for that purpose. Not so easy to jump anymore; you have to 1-2-3-4 FF. Not so easy to 30 second sklip anymore; have to watch it fly by your eyes. Not so easy to jump off a commercial anymore; doing so kills the buffer and increases the risk of missing the bit back from the commercial break.

Lease fees, purchase fees, VOD, 90 minute buffer, lack of DLB......we're watching more commercials and we're paying more to do so. That's D*'s objective, not making sure we have all the toys at our disposal to circumvent exposure to ads.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

BJ[/QUOTE]


----------



## raott

RunnerFL said:


> And run the risk of totally de-stabilizing the box? Or having to shrink the buffer size from 90 mins to 30mins? No thanks...
> 
> For all we know adding DLB would take the box back to where it was when it first came out. It's way too stable now to risk that IMO.


Then maybe D* shouldn't be in the DVR business in the first place if they can't do what Dish, Motorola and Tivo have seemed to manage to do.

Regarding the buffer size, there is no basis that the buffer would have to shrink to 30 minutes, the Moto boxes are longer than 30 minutes.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1415 75.35%
Don't really care about it. 119 6.34%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 344 18.32%
Voters: 1878. 

Replies: 816
Views: 53,008


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## boltjames

raott said:


> Then maybe D* shouldn't be in the DVR business in the first place if they can't do what Dish, Motorola and Tivo have seemed to manage to do.
> 
> Regarding the buffer size, there is no basis that the buffer would have to shrink to 30 minutes, the Moto boxes are longer than 30 minutes.


See my thesis above. It's not that D* can't execute the hardware/software changes. It's that they don't _want _to.

BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> See my thesis above. It's not that D* can't execute the hardware/software changes. It's that they don't _want _to.
> 
> BJ


With D*'s track record on the HR20 and R15, I think being unable to execute is not that far fetched.

It took them a full year to get the R15 to where it is almost stable and it still lacks many, basic user friendly features.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> ... it still lacks many, many basic user friendly features.


Like what?


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Like what?


skip to tick, one push guide, ability to edit SL's when they are not populated


----------



## jonaswan2

raott said:


> skip to tick, one push guide, ability to edit SL's when they are not populated


That's your idea of many many? That's only many tops  .


----------



## raott

jonaswan2 said:


> That's your idea of many many? That's only many tops  .


I stand corrected and have edited my post.:lol:

However, that didn't even include DLBs and Channels I receive which are two of the most glaring IMO.


----------



## jheda

On the other hand, the hr20 does have many many advantages, ie one touch recording, one touch seasons pass recording, picture in picture while viewing guide, hitting blue and having single guide to scroll while watching full screen.

Thats to name a few.

fair is fair.



raott said:


> I stand corrected and have edited my post.:lol:
> 
> However, that didn't even include DLBs and Channels I receive which are two of the most glaring IMO.


----------



## raott

jheda said:


> On the other hand, the hr20 does have many many advantages, ie one touch recording, one touch seasons pass recording, picture in picture while viewing guide, hitting blue and having single guide to scroll while watching full screen.
> 
> Thats to name a few.
> 
> fair is fair.


I was speaking to the features on the R15 directly because there has been progress on the HR20 front that the R15 users have not seen and still are not seeing (yeah I now about the CE's and the new nationwide release, but I'll judge that when it comes out). 18 months and I still have to hit the guide button twice and still have to manually fast forward to get to the middle of a movie???

With that said, I have posted many times that there are alot of things I like about the R15, all of those you just mentioned, (I cringe whenever I have to do a season pass with my R10 and HR10), but the updates to the R15 have been slow and far between.

I am not one of those guys that wants D* to go back to Tivo, I just want the best DVR that has the most features, I could care less who's name is on it.


----------



## Drew2k

raott said:


> skip to tick, one push guide, ability to edit SL's when they are not populated


Regarding your list of features still "missing" from the HR20:

*Skip-to-tick already exists. *Press and hold either REW or FFW for approximately three seconds to jump to the desired tick mark. For more tips, see the HR20 Q&A Forum sticky: Undocumented HR20 Tips & Tricks

*One-push guide exists. *Go to Settings > Display and choose what you want to appear first when you press Guide: Categories, or Guide.

*Ability to edit SL's when not populated - a workaround was just discovered.* See below:


lamontcranston said:


> Milo,
> 
> I just looked at your excellent tips and tricks document and did not see this one...
> 
> *EDIT A SERIES LINK THAT HAS NO EPISODES*
> You can't edit a series link that has no episodes through the prioritizer, but...
> Search for a show you have a series link on.
> Highlight any episode playing on the channel you have the series link on.
> You can scroll down to "Rec. Series" and change recording defaults for the series link.
> Don't know how we all missed this one... or maybe someone else has mentioned it somewhere I couldn't find.


----------



## jheda

Agreed.....



raott said:


> I am not one of those guys that wants D* to go back to Tivo, I just want the best DVR that has the most features, I could care less who's name is on it.


----------



## RunnerFL

jheda said:


> Will adding VOD, mediashare, or other planned features some dont care about destabilize the box?


Mediashare and VOD wouldn't do anything to affect "trickplay" or basic recording functions, etc. With VOD maybe there's the possibility of destabilizing the box, but not near the chance, IMO, that you would have with DLB.



jheda said:


> Will 2, 30 minute buffers STABiLIZE the box more than one 90 minute buffer?


I really don't want to know the answer to this question because I don't want a 30 minute buffer, I want it to stay at 90 minutes. If D* came out and asked "Ok, we can give you DLB with 2 30 Min buffers, or you can keep 1 90 min buffer. What would you choose?" I would have to say stay with 1 90 minute buffer.


----------



## boltjames

RunnerFL said:


> I really don't want to know the answer to this question because I don't want a 30 minute buffer, I want it to stay at 90 minutes. If D* came out and asked "Ok, we can give you DLB with 2 30 Min buffers, or you can keep 1 90 min buffer. What would you choose?" I would have to say stay with 1 90 minute buffer.


I too would choose 1 90 minute buffer as I find that the channel I end the night on (NBC after Saturday Night Live) is also the channel I want to wake up to (NBC during the Today Show) and it's better to turn on the TV and be able to back up an hour and a half in the morning than only 30 minutes.

Your first channel tends to be your fave; the one that's (theoretically) in the second buffer is your "who cares?".

BJ


----------



## jheda

there was a poll on this on point and if i remember correctly it wasnt even close how dlb outran the 90 minute buffer if a choice had to be made. Some did ask why a choice had to be made...

My point my south florida friend is does anyone have *specific knowledge* whether DLB would destabilze the hr20 and to what extent???????????

QUOTE=RunnerFL;1003565]If D* came out and asked "Ok, we can give you DLB with 2 30 Min buffers, or you can keep 1 90 min buffer. What would you choose?" I would have to say stay with 1 90 minute buffer.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Drew2k

jheda said:


> My point my south florida friend is does anyone have *specific knowledge* whether DLB would destabilze the hr20 and to what extent???????????


No ... except maybe the DIRECTV programmers.

Anything being posted here about DLB being a destabilizing feature is pure speculation, bordering on being called "FUD". If we lived in fear that any new feature could destabilize the HR20, we would never wish for anything, yet there's a long-running Wish List here at DBSTalk full of feature requests for the HR20, so while there may be a few people on edge about potential new features, those people are certainly not _cutting edge_.


----------



## cygnusloop

Drew2k said:


> those people are certainly not _cutting edge_.


Which is precisely the point of the CE program, IMHO. If D* sees fit to give us DLB at some point in the future, it will first be available as a CE release, I am certain. Any "destabilizing" issues will be identified, discussed ad nauseum, and fixed before the release goes national.


----------



## RunnerFL

jheda said:


> My point my south florida friend is does anyone have *specific knowledge* whether DLB would destabilze the hr20 and to what extent???????????


I do not believe anyone has specific knowledge, and mine is clearly not that, but I do think there is a great risk at this point in the game to add DLB. D* designed the box with the thought that they didn't want it and to add it and now I'm sure would take some serious re-working thus the potential to destabilize the box. Kinda like taking a car that was built as a front wheel drive car and deciding you need to make it into a rear wheel drive car without making a whole brand new car.


----------



## RunnerFL

Drew2k said:


> those people are certainly not _cutting edge_.


Sorry, but I don't agree with this at all...

There's a huge difference between "cutting edge" and "asking for trouble".


----------



## cygnusloop

RunnerFL said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree with this at all...
> 
> There's a huge difference between "cutting edge" and "asking for trouble".


Boooo!

A true Cutting Edger never met a new feature he (or she) didn't like, and want to pound the crap out of.

But seriously RunnerFL, if you think VOD, MRV, or any of the other "most wanted" new features don't have the same potential, you are deluding yourself, IMHO.

:icon_peac


----------



## Drew2k

RunnerFL said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree with this at all...
> 
> There's a huge difference between "cutting edge" and "asking for trouble".


cygnusloop already posted it, but do you really think DLB would ever be released to the public without thoroughly beeing vetted through the CE process here at DBSTalk? The white GUI didn't go General Release (GR) until several rounds in CE. FFW Correction is currently in it's third round in CE, and won't go GR until DirecTV is satisfied with it, based on CE feedback. I'm sure the same will happen with VOD - it won't go GR until it passes through CE first. Any destabilizing factors will be reported in CE and addressed before GR.

IMHO, your speculation that DLB could be a destabilizing factor is unfounded because if it IS destabilizing, you would never see it. You'll only ever see it if you decide to become a CE tester or if the CE process shows DLB is worthy of going GR. And honestly, it doesn't sound to me like you'd be a good fit for the CE process, because any new feature in a CE has a potential risk associated with testing it, and you certainly do not appear willing to take a risk with the HR20.


----------



## raott

Drew2k said:


> Regarding your list of features still "missing" from the HR20:
> 
> *Skip-to-tick already exists. *Press and hold either REW or FFW for approximately three seconds to jump to the desired tick mark. For more tips, see the HR20 Q&A Forum sticky: Undocumented HR20 Tips & Tricks
> 
> *One-push guide exists. *Go to Settings > Display and choose what you want to appear first when you press Guide: Categories, or Guide.
> 
> *Ability to edit SL's when not populated - a workaround was just discovered.* See below:


Reread the first line on my last post. I was not referring to the HR20.

As I stated in my second post, I was specifically referring to the R15 (following up on Earl's "Like What" post referring to my post that the R15 was still lacking features). The R15 has neither skip-to-tick nor one-push guide.


----------



## raott

RunnerFL said:


> I really don't want to know the answer to this question because I don't want a 30 minute buffer, I want it to stay at 90 minutes. If D* came out and asked "Ok, we can give you DLB with 2 30 Min buffers, or you can keep 1 90 min buffer. What would you choose?" I would have to say stay with 1 90 minute buffer.


You are making a leap that it is DLB or a 90 minute buffer, one or the other. Where is that coming from? The motorola box I'm watching right now has either a60 or 90 minute buffer AND has DLBs.

So again, if Motorola can make it happen, why can't D*?


----------



## cygnusloop

Just a thought on the whole "are there two 90 minute buffers already" question.

I posted this before, I think, but I can't remember if it was here, or in one of the other (formerly numerous, but now seemingly absent) DLB threads.

[tinfoil hat mode]
I'm not convinced that DLB doesn't exist, and is just disabled, for all the reasons that boltjames stated above. (I can't believe I'm agreeing with that nutball :lol: ) [j/k, BJ, you know I luv ya].

Or, like the ability to watch programs without a sat signal, or scanning for OTA channels, DLB did, in fact, destabilize the box and had to be disabled.

Besides the fact that it is such an obvious feature, there are indications that the HR20 _wants _to dual buffer. Like the fact that the two buffers apparently exist, and the fact that under certain circumstances it kinda does dual buffer (steps involving starting and stopping recording that I haven't been able to reproduce).

Maybe it was a business decision, maybe its just the inability to make it work. Just some thoughts.
[/tinfoil hat mode]

One other thing, a few days in, how does everybody feel the "one sticky thread" thing is working out? A conspicuous absence of new DLB threads so far, as best I can tell.


----------



## jheda

I humbly without basis believe that its D^s concious decision not to focus on it now, as they have made other features a priority. I personally disagree, but understand. I dont think IMHO, they are unprepared to get it going once it becomes a priority. I havent given up as they have been very receptive to listening to our (the subs) needs. Maybe it wasnt on their list at all but the (polite ) demand will get it on the list. I just want to keep it on the radar, without compromising all the other good being done here.

To that end, I am a proponent of the one sticky thread. It gives us a permanent place to comisserate, share ideas, even convince one ore two the world wont end if the feature is implemented. The posts here have been excellent and educational.

Maybe the DLB wheel isnt as squeeky with one thread, but it doesnt mean we wont get oil.


----------



## jheda

Jay? Stogie? Mods?


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> To that end, I am a proponent of the one sticky thread. It gives us a permanent place to comisserate, share ideas, even convince one ore two the world wont end if the feature is implemented. The posts here have been excellent and educational.


Never have I been a part of a forum that spends more time discussing itself than its subject matter.










VOS-CE:E: Please add OST to the approved acronym list.

BJ


----------



## cygnusloop

boltjames said:


> Never have I been a part of a forum that spends more time discussing itself than its subject matter.
> 
> BJ


*slap* boltjames! :lol:


----------



## RunnerFL

Drew2k said:


> And honestly, it doesn't sound to me like you'd be a good fit for the CE process, because any new feature in a CE has a potential risk associated with testing it, and you certainly do not appear willing to take a risk with the HR20.


And just who are you to decide what I can and cannot do??

I thought personal attacks were not allowed here..

FYI, I've been taking part of the CE process since the first one. Thanks for paying attention.

I WAS SHARING MY OPINION!


----------



## RunnerFL

raott said:


> You are making a leap that it is DLB or a 90 minute buffer, one or the other.


I'm making no leap, I'm throwing out a possibility... It's called speculation...


----------



## RunnerFL

cygnusloop said:


> But seriously RunnerFL, if you think VOD, MRV, or any of the other "most wanted" new features don't have the same potential, you are deluding yourself, IMHO.


You may want to read my previous posts...

First off I never said anything about MRV...

Secondly I said VOD has the possibility just not near as great.

If you're going to try to slam me at least take the time to read what I've posted.


----------



## cygnusloop

RunnerFL said:


> And just who are you to decide what I can and cannot do??
> 
> I thought personal attacks were not allowed here..
> 
> FYI, I've been taking part of the CE process since the first one. Thanks for paying attention.
> 
> I WAS SHARING MY OPINION!


I don't think Drew meant it like that, not his M.O. in my experience.

But, Runner, I think his point is valid. Taking part in, and accepting the risk of CE's means accepting that risk for all the new features, not just the ones that you think you might want/use. As I only have one HR20, I have no use for MRV. But I am willing to accept the risk that the implementation of MRV might entail, as I know others do want/need it. Just because it's "not for me" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done because of a potential "destabilization".

I, for one, applaud your commitment to the CE program. I remember reading your posts since I started reading this forum early this year.

:icon_peac


----------



## cygnusloop

RunnerFL said:


> If you're going to try to slam me at least take the time to read what I've posted.


Not trying to slam you, just trying to debate the point. Lighten up.


----------



## RunnerFL

cygnusloop said:


> I don't think Drew meant it like that, not his M.O. in my experience.
> 
> But, Runner, I think his point is valid. Taking part in, and accepting the risk of CE's means accepting that risk for all the new features, not just the ones that you think you might want/use. As I only have one HR20, I have no use for MRV. But I am willing to accept the risk that the implementation of MRV might entail, as I know others do want/need it. Just because it's "not for me" doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done because of a potential "destabilization".
> 
> I, for one, applaud your commitment to the CE program. I remember reading your posts since I started reading this forum early this year.
> 
> :icon_peac


He may not, or may have, meant it that way but that's certainly the way it came across.

You guys are reading WAY WAY WAY too much into what I've said. Who are you guys to decide that I'm not the type of person who doesn't take risks? Not to mention where did I say I wouldn't??? I simply said that I would rather not have DLB if we have to start from square one again with the box and I'm not the first person to ever say that, but I'm apparently the only one catching hell for it.

You may want to remind drew of my commitment, he seems to have forgotten.


----------



## RunnerFL

cygnusloop said:


> Not trying to slam you, just trying to debate the point. Lighten up.


That's funny, I could have sworn calling me delusional was a slam...

And I'm not the one who needs to lighten up here, you guys apparently take your "position" here far more seriously than I do... Making decisions for others as to if they are capable of being in the CE program? Come on....


----------



## cygnusloop

RunnerFL said:


> You guys are reading WAY WAY WAY too much into what I've said. Who are you guys to decide that I'm not the type of person who doesn't take risks? Not to mention where did I say I wouldn't???


Fair enough.



RunnerFL said:


> I simply said that I would rather not have DLB if we have to start from square one again with the box and I'm not the first person to ever say that, but I'm apparently the only one catching hell for it.


Well, you are posting about it in the DLB thread... :uglyhamme


----------



## cygnusloop

RunnerFL said:


> That's funny, I could have sworn calling me delusional was a slam...
> 
> And I'm not the one who needs to lighten up here, you guys apparently take your "position" here far more seriously than I do... Making decisions for others as to if they are capable of being in the CE program? Come on....


Sigh....

I didn't call you delusional, I said I thought (as in my opinion) that you were deluding yourself. Not the same thing.

*delude: *_To deceive the mind or judgment_

I am sorry you took it that way, and I apologize. Perhaps I should have said "deceiving" yourself.

I never said anything about your capability to participate in the CE program. I thought I put enough smilies. I guess not.

Anyway, :backtotop


----------



## Drew2k

RunnerFL said:


> And just who are you to decide what I can and cannot do??
> 
> I thought personal attacks were not allowed here..
> 
> FYI, I've been taking part of the CE process since the first one. Thanks for paying attention.
> 
> I WAS SHARING MY OPINION!


I'm sorry you perceive my post as a personal attack, but it's not - I was stimply stating my observations based on your own comments within this thread. You repeatedly stated DLB has the potential to destabilize the HR20. I'm sorry I didn't recall your name from CE discussions, but there are a lot of CE testers, and again, based on your posts in this thread discussing your aversion to features that have the potential to destabilize the HR20, I just assumed you would not be one wiling to take risks with CE testing. My mistake on that. However, since you participate in CE, that means you ARE willing to take risks. It also means you are fully aware that each CE has the potential for unexpected results while testing the CE, and you are also aware that DIRECTV doesn't release features nationally until they are fully vetted in CE. Knowing al this you still object to DLB as a destabilizing feature, and I don't understand that. It can only be destabilizing if you test DLB in a CE, and you say you are willing to take risks. So if DLB is released as a CE, maybe you want to avoid that CE and wait for it to go national, this way you don't have to worry about the "destabilizing" feature affecting your HR20 performance.


----------



## Drew2k

RunnerFL said:


> He may not, or may have, meant it that way but that's certainly the way it came across.
> 
> You guys are reading WAY WAY WAY too much into what I've said. Who are you guys to decide that I'm not the type of person who doesn't take risks? Not to mention where did I say I wouldn't??? *I simply said that I would rather not have DLB if we have to start from square one again with the box *and I'm not the first person to ever say that, but I'm apparently the only one catching hell for it.
> 
> You may want to remind drew of my commitment, he seems to have forgotten.


Bold emphasis above added by me.

You would rather not have it if it meant starting from square one ... Again, as a CE participant, you are aware of risks. If DLB is released, it goes to CE first, and only goes national when tested in CE successfully. There are release notes for each CE release indicating the features being updated and added, and there's a risk factor. Only YOU can decide based on those notes and the risk factor if you want to download that CE. If DLB is not for you because you think it will put you back at square one, don't download the CE. That's every CE tester's right and obligation, to only take on what they are willing to live with during testing. If you can't live with the potential for interruptions if DLB is released in a CE, stay away from the CE, and wait for DLB to go national.


----------



## radamo

Earl Bonovich said:


> Like what?


No offense Earl but this box's ability to FF and Rewind are severely lacking... it is SO difficult to navigate smoothly. Yes, I know the workaround of using the 30 sec slip 5 times and then hit the 6 sec. back button 3 times... but it was so much nicer to just FF until you saw your show start and hit play and have the machine backup a few frames to start playing... (and that backup flexed depending on how fast you were FF'ing... !!!!).

I do agree that the HR20-700 is much better now than a few months ago. It also has some nice things about it... (none come to mind right now... but I am sure they are there). However, the HR10-250 was a better designed product IMHO.


----------



## christo76

I think the argument that DLB would destabalize the box, or require us to lose the 90 min buffer are a bit rediculous. At least in the fact that it would be any more of a risk then VOD or MRV.

First, VOD would have to deal with managing the network signal and writing it to the drive, while up to 2 other streams are writing to the drive (or is that wrong?). VOD like the buffer(s) goes to the reserved section of the drive. If DLB could cause a loss of the 90 min buffer, couldn't VOD also cause that?

With MRV (I will admit I have nearly no knowledge on this), it would seem to have to deal with sending out multiple streams and managing them.


Currently the HR20 can record to streams no problem, and as shown with a bit of work through "short"cuts (I think longcuts is more correct with DLB talks) it can handle switching between one true buffer and another recorded "buffer". Its just getting it to remember a pause point on the live buffer. When new it couldn't remember a pause point on recordings, now it can.

It seems to me the box is closer to performing DLB, then VOD or MRV.

So... to sum up... If we are gonna say no to DLB because of stability fears, then I want all talk of VOD and MRV to stop.


----------



## RunnerFL

Drew2k said:


> based on your posts in this thread discussing your aversion to features that have the potential to destabilize the HR20


You're putting words in my mouth...


----------



## RunnerFL

Drew2k said:


> Bold emphasis above added by me.
> 
> You would rather not have it if it meant starting from square one ... Again, as a CE participant, you are aware of risks. If DLB is released, it goes to CE first, and only goes national when tested in CE successfully. There are release notes for each CE release indicating the features being updated and added, and there's a risk factor. Only YOU can decide based on those notes and the risk factor if you want to download that CE. If DLB is not for you because you think it will put you back at square one, don't download the CE. That's every CE tester's right and obligation, to only take on what they are willing to live with during testing. If you can't live with the potential for interruptions if DLB is released in a CE, stay away from the CE, and wait for DLB to go national.


I understand how the CE Program works, again I've been part of it since the first one. No need to treat me like a toddler and talk down to me. Please take your "high and mighty" attitude elsewhere and quit putting words into my mouth. Not once, not once, did I ever say I wasn't willing to take the risk, I simply said there would be one... Can no one speculate around here without someone with a god complex jumping on them??


----------



## Earl Bonovich

:backtotop

Please don't make me close the DLB thread


----------



## RunnerFL

Earl Bonovich said:


> :backtotop
> 
> Please don't make me close the DLB thread


Sorry Earl, I'm not the one who started the personal attacks...

I'm done with this thread anyways, apparently if you aren't part of the "boys club" your OPINION/SPECULATION doesn't matter.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RunnerFL said:


> Sorry Earl, I'm not the one who started the personal attacks...
> 
> I'm done with this thread anyways, apparently if you aren't part of the "boys club" your OPINION/SPECULATION doesn't matter.


Timeout...

I wasn't accusing anyone of starting anything.... I just want "this" thread, to get back to it's topic.... that's all.

*EVERYONE'S* Opinion/Speculation matters.... _*PERIOD*_

And if anyone has an issue with that.... Hit the ! and report the post, or send one of the mods a PM....

Now.....

:backtotop regardling DLBs


----------



## boltjames

RunnerFL said:


> I understand how the CE Program works, again I've been part of it since the first one. No need to treat me like a toddler and talk down to me. Please take your "high and mighty" attitude elsewhere and quit putting words into my mouth. Not once, not once, did I ever say I wasn't willing to take the risk, I simply said there would be one... Can no one speculate around here without someone with a god complex jumping on them??


Looks like we got us another one. Never knew that something as simple as toggling between two tuners could be such a hot topic.










VOS-CE:E: Another one for the acronym list please.

BJ


----------



## jheda

Soooooooooooooooo, lets get back on topic, so we can utilize this sticky thread we have been blessed with. 

And Runner, please stay with the thread, you are a dedicated CE and your opinion is valued. I think we just had typical post misinterpretations by all with no malice aforethought.


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> Soooooooooooooooo, lets get back on topic, so we can utilize this sticky thread we have been blessed with.
> 
> And Runner, please stay with the thread, you are a dedicated CE and your opinion is valued. I think we just had typical post misinterpretations by all with no malice aforethought.


Agreed. And we can go round in circles on the tech side of things or face the economic truth:

D* can enable DLB in a heartbeat but they simply won't do so. The HR20 is built to accommodate advertisers fears of losing their audience and D*'s fear of losing their revenue. There is no one "big" thing that adverisers fear in a DVR's ability to distract an audience; it's a series of "little" things, and DLB is one of those "little" things that helps reverse their fears.

Deep down, if you search your feelings, you know this to be true.










BJ


----------



## jheda

Thats why you get those little advertisements, Bj, during the show in the little right hand corner, eh? adverisers fear.... or AF as you may put it. And the trend toward "placement ads. 

And your graphics are killing me... LOL


----------



## christo76

I can understand BJ's view, and I am pretty sure I have heard/read articles where advertisers have stated issues with the DVR's ability to bypass them. Thats why they do so much more product placement. And its known that it is also the reason for the 30 second slip vs skip.

I don't think its that much of a stretch that DLB was done for the bottom dollar of advertisers, but considering that it seems every other provider offers it, they can't really hold D* over the fire for it.


----------



## cygnusloop

christo76 said:


> ... they can't really hold D* over the fire for it.


You'd think not, but if they were going to go after a single provider, as far as DVR's are concerned, D* would give you the most bang for your buck.


----------



## boltjames

cygnusloop said:


> You'd think not, but if they were going to go after a single provider, as far as DVR's are concerned, D* would give you the most bang for your buck.


Correct, and as one of the newest DVR's on the market for any provider, might just be the first of a trend where all future DVR's have a greater inability to bypass commercials.

I have D* in 3 rooms of the house, but the other 5 all have basic cable. Bought a cheap HDTV for the bedroom and wanted my wife to have her own DVR up there, so contacted Comcast and got the base HD package for her. You should see what a trainwreck that DVR and it's UI is. Ads plastered everywhere, and on the guide, when you scroll or page down it defaults the focus to the ad banner at the bottom of the guide! So if you page-page-page and then see your show in the bottommost position, you have to scroll up one line to hit it. Quite often, you make a mistake and click the banner (surprise) and are taken to some ad for a perfume or a future show. Not only that, but the space needed for the banner means you only get 4 shows per page in the guide. It's awful.










Again, not to belittle the plight of the DLB fan, but if this is our biggest issue, we should kiss the ground D* walks on. Others have it soooooooo much worse.

BJ


----------



## jheda

That is why we are customers / subscribers. Thats why D* get almost $200 a month from me. One of my favorite checks to write.

This thread is why we say the Hr20-700 is just DLB away from perfection .

And if they end up making it a business decision not to implement DLB, Ill be ok. But since they have not to our knowledge, we talk about it.

Again, not to belittle the plight of the DLB fan, but if this is our biggest issue, we should kiss the ground D* walks on. Others have it soooooooo much worse.

BJ[/QUOTE]


----------



## idoco

christo76 said:


> I can understand BJ's view, and I am pretty sure I have heard/read articles where advertisers have stated issues with the DVR's ability to bypass them. Thats why they do so much more product placement. And its known that it is also the reason for the 30 second slip vs skip.
> 
> I don't think its that much of a stretch that DLB was done for the bottom dollar of advertisers, but considering that it seems every other provider offers it, they can't really hold D* over the fire for it.


As someone who uses DLB and 30 second skip extensively with my current D*Tivo, I can tell you that we still watch commercials in our house. Just not all of them. If a commercial is good or an image catches our attention it will get watched. And because we watch fewer commercials the ones we do watch stand out more!

DLB and 30 sec make advertisers work harder to catch our attention. But advertisers should look at DLB and 30 sec not as a bad thing, but as an opportunity to have their products stand out in a sea of commercials.

Getting back on topic for the thread I am currently in the process of doing the HD upgrade thing. Right now I get Directv, but am seriously considering moving to Dish because their HD DVR has DLB.

Not sure if I'm in the minority in DLB being a deciding factor between Directv and Dish. DLB is one of the most used features in my house and a step backwards is not acceptable.

Idoco


----------



## jheda

First, and most importantly, welcome!!!!!!

I think if y0u take a few minutes and go throught this thread youll get many interesting opinions on this matter. As I said many times, I didnt even know what DLB was when i had my directtivo; i just loved using it and realized what I was missing when I upgraded.

I cant opine on Dish, or the Dish DVR; you may want to research to compare and contrast to the Hr20. Maybe there is a good thread here.

I love my hr20 although I miss DLB. I love the way D* is working closely on improving it. I wouldnt give up my hr 20 for DLB; Im an optimist that the marriage of the 2 can take place.



idoco said:


> As someone who uses DLB and 30 second skip extensively with my current D*Tivo, I can tell you that we still watch commercials in our house. Just not all of them. If a commercial is good or an image catches our attention it will get watched. And because we watch fewer commercials the ones we do watch stand out more!
> 
> DLB and 30 sec make advertisers work harder to catch our attention. But advertisers should look at DLB and 30 sec not as a bad thing, but as an opportunity to have their products stand out in a sea of commercials.
> 
> Getting back on topic for the thread I am currently in the process of doing the HD upgrade thing. Right now I get Directv, but am seriously considering moving to Dish because their HD DVR has DLB.
> 
> Not sure if I'm in the minority in DLB being a deciding factor between Directv and Dish. DLB is one of the most used features in my house and a step backwards is not acceptable.
> 
> Idoco


----------



## markmicallef

This is silly that they would not include this from the beginning.


----------



## Que

raott said:


> Then maybe D* shouldn't be in the DVR business in the first place if they can't do what Dish, Motorola and Tivo have seemed to manage to do.
> 
> Regarding the buffer size, there is no basis that the buffer would have to shrink to 30 minutes, the Moto boxes are longer than 30 minutes.


With time the HR20 will/have to get DLB. It will just have to. Needs to keep up with the other DVRs. I think they still need to get SLB working right and then move to DLB. It will just take some time.

I also think they need to get some new people in there. The box is getting better. It's just taking a long time.


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> With time the HR20 will/have to get DLB. It will just have to. *Needs to keep up with the other DVRs*. I think they still need to get SLB working right and then move to DLB. It will just take some time.
> 
> I also think they need to get some new people in there. The box is getting better. It's just taking a long time.


This is where you DLB people are dead wrong. Satellite is more expensive than cable, it's more inconvenient than cable, it requires more setup than cable, and it offers less choice than cable yet we still line up like little lemmings and put up with it.

Why?

NFL Sunday Ticket and Out Of Market Locals.

So long as D* has a stranglehold on the exclusive ability to deliver NFL games and local sports to people who live hundreds of miles away from their home towns and the exclusive ability to deliver all NFL games to diehard fans of the sport, we're going nowhere. D* could double my monthly bill and I'd still be happy to pay it because they are the only solution for my programming needs.

Bottom line: D* knows it's not going to lose a single customer because their DVR doesn't "keep up with everyone else's". You're not giving up NFL Sunday Ticket and my friend is not giving up NY RSN's in California because of a glorified "jump" function.

Head. Out of clouds. Take it.

BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> This is where you DLB people are dead wrong. Satellite is more expensive than cable, it's more inconvenient than cable, it requires more setup than cable, and it offers less choice than cable yet we still line up like little lemmings and put up with it.
> 
> Why?
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket and Out Of Market Locals.
> ..............
> 
> Head. Out of clouds. Take it.
> 
> BJ


In my area satellite is NOT more expensive than cable, in fact, cable runs about $30-$35 MORE a month, and, other than VOD, I have a much greater programming choice with D*.

Out of market locals appeals to a very small percentage of subscribers and has nothing to do with it.

Broad comparisons with cable are never accurate because cable varies so much from area to area.


----------



## txtommy

In my area there is no cable. For anything more than OTA the only option is satellite.
Also have Direcway Internet (now Hughesnet) since there is no option for anything else better than dial-up. The price isn't a consideration, it's pay or go without.


----------



## Monty23

boltjames said:


> D* could double my monthly bill and I'd still be happy to pay it because they are the only solution for my programming needs.
> 
> BJ


Better check your next months bill carefully.......


----------



## lflorack

boltjames said:


> Satellite is more expensive than cable


Not in my area it isn't. For me, D* was $20/month cheaper than Time Warner when I switched. I didn't switch because it was cheaper, but it didn't hurt.

You may or may not be correct for the majority of cases but there are numerous instances when cable is definitely not cheaper -- let alone as good.


----------



## jahgreen

boltjames said:


> This is where you DLB people are dead wrong. Satellite is more expensive than cable, it's more inconvenient than cable, it requires more setup than cable, and it offers less choice than cable yet we still line up like little lemmings and put up with it.
> 
> Why?
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket and Out Of Market Locals.BJ


I agree with your other posts, but this one I can't buy.

Cable would be more expensive for me. I don't have NFL Sunday ticket. I neither have nor need out of market locals.

DirecTV is not more inconvenient than Comcast, at least not in my neck of the woods.

Bottom line, I switched to DirecTV because Comcast is more expensive, incompetent, couldn't deliver a picture without ghosts because they can't get around to upgrading the 30-year old installed cable in my neighborhood, provides no more choice to me, and it's got an attitude as well. It'll be a World Series win for the Cubs before I willingly go back to cable.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> This is where you DLB people are dead wrong. Satellite is more expensive than cable, it's more inconvenient than cable, it requires more setup than cable, and it offers less choice than cable yet we still line up like little lemmings and put up with it.
> 
> Why?
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket and Out Of Market Locals.
> 
> BJ


Gotta go with the others on this.

Cable is more expensive in my area, and the quality is much lower. My sat plus DSL runs aroun $90-100, and I know my house previously had cable with cable internet and it was over $100, without any digital boxes. They had consistently bad pictures and averaged 1-2 visits from service men every other year for issues with the signal.

I do have Sunday ticket, But I do plan to cancel it this year, unless I get SF free. The SD quality is horrible and w/o DLB its not worth it to me.


----------



## LR308er

I haven't seen anything about DLB in the last 6 posts.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

:backtotop about DLB... take anything else to another thread

Seriously.... Last warning.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> :backtotop about DLB... take anything else to another thread
> 
> Seriously.... Last warning.


The discussion was a theory offered by boltjames on why DLB was not being offered. The following posts were in response to that theory.


----------



## christo76

LR308er said:


> I haven't seen anything about DLB in the last 6 posts.


1 post prior to that.....



> I do have Sunday ticket, But I do plan to cancel it this year, unless I get SF free. The SD quality is horrible and w/o *DLB* its not worth it to me.


Granted it was more offhanded of a reference. But still, the string of posts was referring to the mention that 'D* doesn't care that we want DLB, because they already charge us more for lower quality and less choices, yet we stay'.


----------



## DblD_Indy

How about the lighter side of DLB:

As for where is DLB, I think D*TV it might be parked right next to the WMD, both should be found by the spring.

Or how about this DLB happy talk...

I remember when DLB and I used to go the races. We would watch IRL on one channel and NASCAR on the other... I would get excited when the Yellow came out and switch over to the NASCAR race after hitting pause, and ya know what? Good old DLB would be kind enough to save my space when I clicked back to the IRL race could jump through commercials to see Danica hop out of the car and shake those soft brown locks... (insert tear), without having to hit rewind when I switched back.

Ahhhhhh, the good old days.

Mr. Earl besides a letter writing campaign, which/ may or may not end this thread if the letter was posted here. What might you suggest we do to motivate our fine signal provider to either say they will add this feature or come out and say that they never will add it. Thus ending our misery. It is the not knowing that is the hard part.


----------



## DblD_Indy

Before I put time in to writing a letter to D*TV trying to persuade them to put DLB back in the mix. I would like to get some idea of how many of you would seriously take the time to at least send 2-3 letters per week
We should plan on keeping this up until we get an answer either pro or con on DLB from D*TV.

Since hopefully there are more than 200 people interested and I don't want to have to keep cleaning out my PM box. I have created an email address for those of you who are interested.

Please only take the time to email if you are seriously interested.

Send your "DLB Snail Mail Campaign" comments and questions to:[email protected]

If you have any questions of immediate consern please feel free to PM' me.

Also, Please forward all known D*TV Corp. address that could be mailed to that might give us some edge in getting to to the right people. I will sort through these and add them to the final packet. If we could get a list of Major stock holders and home address that would be sweet too. I am sure they have to be posted. My guess would a fianance guy might be able to pull those for us.

I would like 2 -3 individuals that would be willing to proof the letter Prior to distribution. My guess is DBSTalk would like as much of this as possible off their books to prevent any problems the D*TV so please add the address you are sending to, to your safe senders list.

When finished I will send a "packet" containing the Letters and Address's of Interest. After that you are on your one. I will do my best to assure a single stamp will get it through the mail unless you want to get fancy and send it registered with signature and delivery conformation.

There is the news, plans are to be ready to go by MONDAY! NFL camp starts in a month and I might just want my NFL Sunday ticket back by preseason, should DLB return.


----------



## CoachGibbs

HR20 will never be a great or even good DVR without the DLB, IMO. I'm not counting on them adding it either.


----------



## christo76

I am going to be calling D* to cancel Sunday Ticket, and would like to place a complaint with them that my cancellation is directly related to no DLB. (Well, actually its no DLB and horrible SD picture)

What term for DLB would they understand? And would just a regular CSR be fine or do I need to ask to be transfered to someone else? Cust. Retention? Higher Tech?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

christo76 said:


> I am going to be calling D* to cancel Sunday Ticket, and would like to place a complaint with them that my cancellation is directly related to no DLB. (Well, actually its no DLB and horrible SD picture)
> 
> What term for DLB would they understand? And would just a regular CSR be fine or do I need to ask to be transfered to someone else? Cust. Retention? Higher Tech?


You would have to spell it out to them... as DLB on the CSR tier, most of them won't know what it is.

And for the most part, they will just note it on the account... and you will go in the bucket that cancled Sunday Ticket this year, while the other bucket of those adding Sunday Ticket this year cancels you out.


----------



## christo76

Earl Bonovich said:


> And for the most part, they will just note it on the account... and you will go in the bucket that cancled Sunday Ticket this year, while the other bucket of those adding Sunday Ticket this year cancels you out.


I wasn't expecting it to make any huge difference to them, but hope it would add slightly me more squeak to the wheel, in the hopes of getting grease.

DLB isn't my main reason for dumping it. As stated above, its the horrible SD quality. Of all the SD things I have seen, Sunday Ticket games are the worst (Brewers Baseball on FSN WI is right there with it). I'd rather just watch the 1-2 games my locals allow in HD. DLB would have made it at least worthwhile to watch multiple games and offset the SD.

As for adding superfan to get HD. I don't see that I should have to pay another $100 just to get watchable content, when I would think the SD games should at least come in as clear had standard channels like Discovery or SciFi.

(on a side note: Earl, sorry that you seem to feel the brunt of all the frustration around DLB. It used to be that when I saw a post of yours in here, I'd hope it was good news... Now I just immediately get an image of you annoyed at the thorn in your side)


----------



## hasan

christo76 said:


> As for adding superfan to get HD. I don't see that I should have to pay another $100 just to get watchable content, when I would think the SD games should at least come in as clear had standard channels like Discovery or SciFi.


I too, felt I was in a bit of a shell game with the horrible quality of SD NFL Sunday Ticket. When I first started NFL ST, many years ago, (and no HD was available), the games were at least watchable. Once HD became available, the video quality of the SD games was horrid. They are virtually unwatchable now. So, I plunked down the money and grit my teeth.

How much of this is due to the contrast effect with HD and an actual degradation of the SD NFL ST channels is open to discussion. My assessment is that it is some of both.

One thing is for sure. I find I don't watch hardly ANY SD any more, unless it's news, (MSNBC, etc), and that tends to be more listening than watching. If it ain't in HD, I don't much bother any more. (I know, I'm spoiled rotten!)


----------



## HouseBowlrz

hasan said:


> One thing is for sure. I find I don't watch hardly ANY SD any more, unless it's news, (MSNBC, etc), and that tends to be more listening than watching. If it ain't in HD, I don't much bother any more. (I know, I'm spoiled rotten!)


I feel the same way ... I have Extra Innings with SuperFan and tend to watch those over the hometown Nationals on MASN (who replied to my inquiry of going HD to "we're not sure but it won't be for a few years").

Exceptions include when the Padres play because a family member in on the roster (one of my cousins is married to a starting pitcher) and local news when WUSA (our local CBS affiliate that airs in HD) is not airing news.

cheers


----------



## boltjames

hasan said:


> One thing is for sure. I find I don't watch hardly ANY SD any more, unless it's news, (MSNBC, etc), and that tends to be more listening than watching. If it ain't in HD, I don't much bother any more. (I know, I'm spoiled rotten!)


Exactly. Once you HD, you don't go back. Just another reason why DLB's aren't necessary.

BJ


----------



## jheda

????????????

BJ why cant i flip back and forth between 2 hd games? that does happen....

and i too am hd spoiled, but i watch my yanks when they are in SD, and would love to utilize DLB between them and a redsux game...

and housebowlrz, whose the relative if u can share?



boltjames said:


> Exactly. Once you HD, you don't go back. Just another reason why DLB's aren't necessary.
> 
> BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> Exactly. Once you HD, you don't go back. Just another reason why DLB's aren't necessary.
> 
> BJ


What in the world does HD have to do with DLBs being necessary??? Last time I checked, with the HR10, I could watch two HD programs (ie football via superfan) and flip back and forth using DLBs.

Again, I'll go back to what I've said time and again, why would you not want a DVR with the most features possible? If you don't use DLBs fine, but don't tell others what is and what is not necessary, obviously it is important enough to some people that it is number two or three on requested features.


----------



## boltjames

raott said:


> Again, I'll go back to what I've said time and again, why would you not want a DVR with the most features possible? If you don't use DLBs fine, but don't tell others what is and what is not necessary, obviously it is important enough to some people that it is number two or three on requested features.


I _do _want a DVR with the most features possible, but I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. Let's look at the upside and downside of moving from an HR10 to an HR20, shall we?

Downsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:

1. Lose DLB
2. Lose Tivo Guide View

Upsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:

1. Faster Menus
2. Native Mode
3. MPEG4 Broadcast Viewing
4. Caller ID
5. Stable Broadcasts
6. Better Guide Filters
7. Better HD Guide Labeling
8. Whisper Quiet Operation
9. 90 Minute Buffer
10. A "Stop" Button
11. One-Touch-Recording

If the argument is "we used to have DLB and now we've lost DLB", that's not fair. The reality is that you've gained 11 significant feature upgrades in an HR20 at the sacrifice of only 2 in the HR10. The native mode, menu speed, MPEG4, and stability are huge benefits over the HR10 and certainly enough to compensate for the DLB. The 90 minute buffer is enormous. I can turn on the TV, see the last minute of a movie on HBO, hit rewind, and watch the whole thing. Far better than two 30 minute buffers for that odd occassion you are watching two live sports programs at the same time.

Think big picture. The HR20 is a big win, not a disappointment.

BJ


----------



## DblD_Indy

boltjames said:


> I _do _want a DVR with the most features possible, but I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. Let's look at the upside and downside of moving from an HR10 to an HR20, shall we?
> 
> Downsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:
> 
> 1. Lose DLB
> 2. Lose Tivo Guide View
> 
> Upsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:
> 
> 1. Faster Menus
> 2. Native Mode
> 3. MPEG4 Broadcast Viewing
> 4. Caller ID
> 5. Stable Broadcasts
> 6. Better Guide Filters
> 7. Better HD Guide Labeling
> 8. Whisper Quiet Operation
> 9. 90 Minute Buffer
> 
> If the argument is "we used to have DLB and now we've lost DLB", that's not fair. The reality is that you've gained 9 significant feature upgrades in an HR20 at the sacrifice of only 2 in the HR10. The native mode, menu speed, MPEG4, and stability are huge benefits over the HR10 and certainly enough to compensate for the DLB. The 90 minute buffer is enormous. I can turn on the TV, see the last minute of a movie on HBO, hit rewind, and watch the whole thing. Far better than two 30 minute buffers for that odd occassion you are watching two live sports programs at the same time.
> 
> Think big picture. The HR20 is a big win, not a disappointment.
> 
> BJ


You must be new to the unit. Only the 90 min buffer was a working part of the unit when they installed mine in Nov. of 2006 
Besides missing DLB:
1. Faster Menus - Were slow and clunky.
2. Native Mode - Was an option that turned off by everyone because it caused issues.
3. MPEG4 Broadcast Viewing - Since you can get that free with Quicktime 7 and the compression value allows them to pack more into a smaller pipe I think it just as much D*tv's value as ours. Or lat least 50/50. 
4. Caller ID - My $20 cordless phone is more consistant
5. Stable Broadcasts - says who? or should I say what, the 5LMB is more resposible for consistant signal, and stability has been an upgrad to every single CE, noted in another forum.
6. Better Guide Filters - Ah, same as 7 I think.
7. Better HD Guide Labeling - ah, this was the default menu, you had to force it to display a real guide.8. Whisper Quiet Operation - Mine not so wisper quite, much better than my X360
9. 90 Minute Buffer - This guy would prefer two 45 min buffers.

Not since Windows 95 has a developer had to do so much after release to get a piece of software working.


----------



## jheda

With all due respect BJ, Until you can tell me, with a factual basis, why you have to LOSE Dlb as a feature, in order to gain the ones you list, the argument you presented holds no water. And no one, no one to date has said we cant have the present features of the Hr20 AND DLB.



boltjames said:


> I _do _want a DVR with the most features possible, but I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. Let's look at the upside and downside of moving from an HR10 to an HR20, shall we?
> 
> Downsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:
> 
> 1. Lose DLB
> 2. Lose Tivo Guide View
> 
> Upsides of Moving from an HR10 to an HR20:
> 
> 1. Faster Menus
> 2. Native Mode
> 3. MPEG4 Broadcast Viewing
> 4. Caller ID
> 5. Stable Broadcasts
> 6. Better Guide Filters
> 7. Better HD Guide Labeling
> 8. Whisper Quiet Operation
> 9. 90 Minute Buffer
> 
> If the argument is "we used to have DLB and now we've lost DLB", that's not fair. The reality is that you've gained 9 significant feature upgrades in an HR20 at the sacrifice of only 2 in the HR10. The native mode, menu speed, MPEG4, and stability are huge benefits over the HR10 and certainly enough to compensate for the DLB. The 90 minute buffer is enormous. I can turn on the TV, see the last minute of a movie on HBO, hit rewind, and watch the whole thing. Far better than two 30 minute buffers for that odd occassion you are watching two live sports programs at the same time.
> 
> Think big picture. The HR20 is a big win, not a disappointment.
> 
> BJ


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> With all due respect BJ, Until you can tell me, with a factual basis, why you have to LOSE Dlb as a feature, in order to gain the ones you list, the argument you presented holds no water. And no one, no one to date has said we cant have the present features of the Hr20 AND DLB.


You know the answer to this question before you ask it.

Let's say that it's easier for D* to give us an existing feature that's been in their STB's for years (DLB) than it is for D* to give us a brand new feature that's never been tried by them before (Native). Let's work under that pretense for a moment.

D* chose to go after these other more challenging features instead of the DLB layup. Ask yourself "why?" and your quest for DLB will come to a sad end.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

DblD_Indy said:


> You must be new to the unit. Only the 90 min buffer was a working part of the unit when they installed mine in Nov. of 2006


I fail to see your point.

If you're saying that you were an early adopter and suffered through the trials and tribulations of any first gen/first release product and are so soured on the experience that you can't appreciate what you have today, I can't help you. If you're scarred, nothing I can do.

For me, and for future millions of others, the cacophony of new features detailed above far, far outweigh the loss of a few features.

If you could trade all 9 features shown above away to get DLB back, would you? Of course not. Show some gratitude and appreciate all those upsides instead of focusing on the one downside.

And when jheda answers his own question, you'll see the light. There can be only one reason why something that's easy to execute is deliberately not executed. Want to join jheda in solving the big mystery?

BJ


----------



## jheda

And your theory, BJ that their is economic pressure, to not impliment DLB, although unsubstantiated, is plausible .

All im saying is from a technical standpoint, there is no documented reason why we all cant be happy and have all these features.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1476 75.61%
Don't really care about it. 120 6.15%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 356 18.24%
Voters: 1952.

Replies 901 Views 55,850


----------



## jheda

I wonder que, then if it will end up consumer pressure vs. advertiser pressure...


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> And your theory, BJ that their is economic pressure, to not impliment DLB, although unsubstantiated, is plausible .
> 
> All im saying is from a technical standpoint, there is no documented reason why we all cant be happy and have all these features.


Forget the economics for a minute. The answer is much simpler than that:

They don't want you to have it.

DLB was a standard feature in D* DVR's for years. Now it's gone. It wasn't forgotten. It wasn't deprioritized. It was removed. Deliberately.

They. Don't. Want. You. To. Have. It.

That's why it's not coming back. Could be advertising pressure. Could be that most never knew DLB was even a feature on their DVR's. Could be that a 90 minute buffer is more useful than two 45 minute buffers. Could be that the CEO's daughter's babysitter asked him to take it out. Doesn't matter.

It was removed. They don't want you to have it. That's why it's not coming back.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> A must have! 1476 75.61%
> Don't really care about it. 120 6.15%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 356 18.24%
> Voters: 1952.
> 
> Replies 901 Views 55,850


Perception is a funny thing in a discussion forum.

I belong to a New York Jets forum which was founded by those that wanted us to have our own stadium in Manhattan. In similar polls on that site, you'll see that 8000+ fans cared very passionately about the stadium, overwhelmingly supporting it. You'd think that all 5 million Jets fans in the NY Metro area would show up and cheer in Times Square. But when the stadium plan was announced, no one showed up at the rally. When it was challenged, no one showed up to support it. When it was defeated, there was no protest. When the Jets announced they're staying in Jersey, no one cancelled a single season ticket. Mass indifference. But if you go on that forum this very day, you'd think that the stadium defeat was the darkest moment in franchise history.

This forum is a tweaky place that 1% of the D* population frequents. And, by definition, these would be those that treat their satellite receivers as a hobbiest treats his model airplane. To Mr. and Mrs. DirecTV America, I'd bet they never even knew that their T60's and HR10's even had the DLB feature to begin with. That's what you're facing.

BJ


----------



## Que

jheda said:


> I wonder que, then if it will end up consumer pressure vs. advertiser pressure...


I think it will come down to the consumer. When they force people over. You will see a lot of calls coming in. Asking "how can I change to the other tuner" When they find out that HR20 does not do that. They might jump ship.

As Earl had said this is just a small user base here. No one really knows what will happen. I just bet there are more people that use it then D* think. Only way they will find out if people leave. If they are force and people want out, they can get out even with a 2 year contract.

*Now who is going to write this letter to we can snail mail it out?*

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=629658#post629658


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> I think it will come down to the consumer. When they force people over. You will see a lot of calls coming in. Asking "how can I change to the other tuner" When they find out that HR20 does not do that. They might jump ship.
> 
> As Earl had said this is just a small user base here. No one really knows what will happen. I just bet there are more people that use it then D* think. Only way they will find out if people leave. If they are force and people want out, they can get out even with a 2 year contract.
> 
> *Now who is going to write this letter to we can snail mail it out?*
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=629658#post629658


I love you guys, I truly do, and I respect your passion around this issue. If a "core" feature of a DVR is removed, it is removed for a good reason. It isn't forgotten or temporarily misplaced. You don't see the HR20 missing a "pause" button or lacking a Guide. You see many things thought out properly and improvements made like the addition of a "stop" button and one-touch-recording.

DLB was removed because of one of three simple reasons:

1. No one used it.
2. It prevented a 90 minute buffer, perceived to be more useful.
3. Advertisers want assurance that the D* STB's can deliver eyeballs.

Either way, it is not coming back. You can take that to the bank.

BJ


----------



## jheda

And your source is?????? could be"s??????? come on BJ, your better then that. 
Lastly, the "most never new or 90 is better then two 45's"..See Que's results.

Oh well my Yanks won so calling it a night.



boltjames said:


> Forget the economics for a minute. The answer is much simpler than that:
> 
> They don't want you to have it.
> 
> DLB was a standard feature in D* DVR's for years. Now it's gone. It wasn't forgotten. It wasn't deprioritized. It was removed. Deliberately.
> 
> They. Don't. Want. You. To. Have. It.
> 
> That's why it's not coming back. Could be advertising pressure. Could be that most never knew DLB was even a feature on their DVR's. Could be that a 90 minute buffer is more useful than two 45 minute buffers. Could be that the CEO's daughter's babysitter asked him to take it out. Doesn't matter.
> 
> It was removed. They don't want you to have it. That's why it's not coming back.
> 
> BJ


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> And your source is?????? could be"s??????? come on BJ, your better then that.
> Lastly, the "most never new or 90 is better then two 45's"..See Que's results.
> 
> Oh well my Yanks won so calling it a night.


Funny you should mention that. _My _Yanks won too, and because I was so busy posting here I missed the result. Conveniently, I could rewind 61 minutes to see the 10th inning drama.

Thank you D*. Thank you for the 90 minute buffer instead of the DLB.

BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

jheda said:


> I wonder que, then if it will end up consumer pressure vs. advertiser pressure...


It isn't a fair analysis. Saying that the consumer will accept something is quite different from saying that he will like it. Many times, a consumer's decision is driven by a number of considerations. Including, perhaps, an evident attitutude that the consumer doesn't really know what's good for him...but of course, WE do!

Dual live buffers wansn't unique to TiVo. I believe Ultimate TV had them before TiVo did, since they released dual tuners first. Since that time, a number of cable DVR's have incorporated them. They are a good idea--one of the best reasons for having dual tuners in the first place.

The lack of them on the HR20 is inexcuseable, since there is no technical reason for them not to be there. To suggest that DirecTV succomed to advertiser pressure implies that advertisers call the shots when you pay your subscription fees to your signal provider. Just because they may be able to do so now doesn't mean that they will continue to do so.

Just one more reason to consider the Series 3 TiVo and cable. One more reason to buy your own set top box for the features it has--and perhaps pay a little more for that privilege!


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> DLB was removed because of one of three simple reasons:
> 
> 1. No one used it.
> 2. It prevented a 90 minute buffer, perceived to be more useful.
> 3. Advertisers want assurance that the D* STB's can deliver eyeballs.
> 
> Either way, it is not coming back. You can take that to the bank.
> 
> BJ


never assign to genius what you can assign to incompetence...a simple reason in my view is that someone badly miscalculated how important DLB is to DVR users...human nature being what it is, the person in charge doesn't want to admit incompetence and thus keeps convincing people at D* that it's not important and there are other things more pressing...


----------



## DblD_Indy

anubys said:


> never assign to genius what you can assign to incompetence...a simple reason in my view is that someone badly miscalculated how important DLB is to DVR users...human nature being what it is, the person in charge doesn't want to admit incompetence and thus keeps convincing people at D* that it's not important and there are other things more pressing...


+1


----------



## raott

anubys said:


> never assign to genius what you can assign to incompetence...a simple reason in my view is that someone badly miscalculated how important DLB is to DVR users...human nature being what it is, the person in charge doesn't want to admit incompetence and thus keeps convincing people at D* that it's not important and there are other things more pressing...


Exactly - and I'll go back to other features that were either missing or horribly implemented at the begining - skip-to-tick / one push guide and the 50/100 limits.

D* flat out missed the boat on all three of those. And some of you guys have confidence that they are leaving out DLBs because they are executing some master plan??? I don't buy it.


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> DLB was removed because of one of three simple reasons:
> 
> 1. No one used it.
> 2. It prevented a 90 minute buffer, perceived to be more useful.
> 3. Advertisers want assurance that the D* STB's can deliver eyeballs.
> 
> Either way, it is not coming back. You can take that to the bank.
> 
> BJ


boltjames, I love the debate but IMO you are wrong on number one and two.

My wife, who is the lowest common denominator in technical competence, knows what DLBs do, she doesn't know them as DLBs, but she does know that with our R10, she can hit one button and go back and forth between shows. The D* forum, has had many threads on DLBs, and other that those that are there to help, like Earl and litzdog, I don't if any other savy user posts there for information.

Second, there is no evidence that a 90 minute buffer affects DLBs. The poorly designed Moto box, with the 3rd rate cable company at the house I'm staying at, has DLBs, and they are at least an hour (I haven't checked to see how long they actually are, but will do so).


----------



## ShiningBengal

anubys said:


> never assign to genius what you can assign to incompetence...a simple reason in my view is that someone badly miscalculated how important DLB is to DVR users...human nature being what it is, the person in charge doesn't want to admit incompetence and thus keeps convincing people at D* that it's not important and there are other things more pressing...


Exactly. As a side note, I see that DirecTV is very, very interested in what its users think of its website (in my case not much and I so indicated on their poll) but I have yet to see any polls on what their users think of the HR20. Could it be that they really don't care, or that they really believe all of their own marketing hype?

I don't think TiVo will ever come back to DirecTV, but that's not my point in extoling its virtues here. Why on earth couldn't they have kept what was so good about TiVo rather than add half-baked ideas (5 program guides and not one of them will show the channels I receive??).

I don't need to see 90% of the clutter on their user-interface. It is so refreshing to come back to my bedroom TiVo after fighting with the HR20 I have in my media room. It just works better. I don't care about caller ID that works when it wants to. I don't care about a single 90 minute buffer that is nowhere near as usefull as two live buffers. I don't care about the ridiculous 30 second "slip" that always overshoots what I want to see.

I do like to see an entire screen showing me as much program material as can fit on it, not three or four little snapshots of a program guide.

In my view, people who actually like the HR20 better than the HR10 don't appreciate the essense of a good DVR. That was what TiVo was (and is). It didn't have everything. My God, it didn't even have PIP!!!!! But what it did, it did very well and did it consistently. People who complain about slowness are using the grid guide which is what channel surfers want. I always thought DVR's were about eliminating this pointless waste of time.

DirecTV wants us to channel surf, because we will then be watching in "real time" and won't be able to skip commercials for products we have no need for and for which we have already seen 10,000 times!

TiVo gave us a choice in this matter, however. Those who wanted a grid could still have it. Now we have one choice, and have to hit a button twice to get to it! How smart is that?

Skipping stupid (ie most) commercials is my number one reason to have a DVR. The HR20 makes it much more difficult to do that. Wonder why????


----------



## jwd45244

boltjames said:


> DLB was removed because of one of three simple reasons:
> 
> 1. No one used it.
> 2. It prevented a 90 minute buffer, perceived to be more useful.
> 3. Advertisers want assurance that the D* STB's can deliver eyeballs.


How about an even more simple reason: DLB is/was part of the Tivo DVR. DTV and Tivo parted ways. DTV did not have access to any of Tivo's code base. DTV had to build their DVR from scratch.

No conspiracy. This kind of stuff happens all the time with software development with multiple parties involved.


----------



## ShiningBengal

jwd45244 said:


> How about an even more simple reason: DLB is/was part of the Tivo DVR. DTV and Tivo parted ways. DTV did not have access to any of Tivo's code base. DTV had to build their DVR from scratch.
> 
> No conspiracy. This kind of stuff happens all the time with software development with multiple parties involved.


Nonsense. DLB was not part of TiVo's patentable code base. All kinds of 3rd rate DVR's copied this "exclusive feature" long ago. If it were patentable, it would have been patented. No patent exists.

Ultimate TV had dual live buffers even before TiVo did, since they beat TiVo to the market with dual tuners by a couple of months.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> You know the answer to this question before you ask it.
> 
> Let's say that it's easier for D* to give us an existing feature that's been in their STB's for years (DLB) than it is for D* to give us a brand new feature that's never been tried by them before (Native). Let's work under that pretense for a moment.
> 
> D* chose to go after these other more challenging features instead of the DLB layup. Ask yourself "why?" and your quest for DLB will come to a sad end.
> 
> BJ


So you are saying a car company could bring out the new model, with a heads up display showing all info of your car, leather seats with air conditioning and heated, automatic re-inflating tires, BUT... they removed the stereo, and there is no way for you to add one on your own. You wouldn't complain and ask them to add a stereo? Every other car has a stereo.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

ShiningBengal said:


> Ultimate TV had dual live buffers even before TiVo did, since they beat TiVo to the market with dual tuners by a couple of months.


UTV DLB only works when you have the PIP window on, otherwise it really doesn't have it.


----------



## christo76

I've seen the argument that we should let it go because it was never stated to be in the HR20 and so many other things were added. And all their time is being put into the things they did say would be available such as VOD, Call id...

Fine... then when will they add the feature mentioned in my manual where I can record 2 shows and watch a 3rd show live. I assume this is in the works and should arrive right around the time of Channels I receive.


----------



## ShiningBengal

theratpatrol said:


> UTV DLB only works when you have the PIP window on, otherwise it really doesn't have it.


Obviously Ultimate TV had the opportunity to go either way. They chose to "use up" the second tuner with PIP for DLB purposes. Personally, I think this was the wrong choice.

But it doesn't change the accuracy of what I stated: DLB was not exclusive TiVo technology---ever. It had nothing at all to do with whether the HR20 could have be enabled when it was introduced...or now!

The fact that they haven't implemented what clearly is a very desired feature when they could easily do so says something not particularly flattering about DirecTV.


----------



## boltjames

anubys said:


> never assign to genius what you can assign to incompetence...a simple reason in my view is that someone badly miscalculated how important DLB is to DVR users...human nature being what it is, the person in charge doesn't want to admit incompetence and thus keeps convincing people at D* that it's not important and there are other things more pressing...


That's a swell theory, but it doesn't make sense. D* had years to build their own DVR and had more than a decade of key learnings from the likes of the T60 and HR10 to get it right.

To say that the same "incompetent" designer that left off the DLB's is the same person that got us a 'stop' button, one-touch-recording, native mode, 90 minute buffer, speedy guides, etc. is quite a stretch.

D* has smart people working there and they were the first service provider to offer an integrated STB w/DVR almost 10 years ago. They are listening to us now and are smartly tweaking the firmware as they go. If they wanted DLB on the HR20 it would be there. They left it off. On purpose. It's not coming back.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> The fact that they haven't implemented what clearly is a very desired feature when they could easily do so says something not particularly flattering about DirecTV.


And that's where you're wrong.

To this small fraction of the D* population, its apparently important. But to my mom, it's not.

I'm a very early adopter of many technlogies and I myself didn't even know DLB was available to me in my T60's until 5 years had passed.

It's not something Mr. and Mrs. America want or care about. The HR20 is being built in a different world than the T60 and HR10. Its for the masses, not the hobbiest.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

christo76 said:


> So you are saying a car company could bring out the new model, with a heads up display showing all info of your car, leather seats with air conditioning and heated, automatic re-inflating tires, BUT... they removed the stereo, and there is no way for you to add one on your own. You wouldn't complain and ask them to add a stereo? Every other car has a stereo.


Ah, but the difference is that the car you're referencing can _fly_. So yes, I'm going to live without the stereo because the friggin' thing can _fly _me to work.

BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> And that's where you're wrong.
> 
> To this small fraction of the D* population, its apparently important. But to my mom, it's not.
> 
> I'm a very early adopter of many technlogies and I myself didn't even know DLB was available to me in my T60's until 5 years had passed.
> 
> It's not something Mr. and Mrs. America want or care about. The HR20 is being built in a different world than the T60 and HR10. Its for the masses, not the hobbiest.
> 
> BJ


Again, you are making the assumption that the laymen is not aware of the feature. That argument doesn't fly.

There have been a number of threads on D*'s own forum wondering what button to hit to get to their other show they are watching. The people that post on that forum (other than those that are trying to help) ARE laymen.

I'll go back to my wife, she has no idea what a DLB is, but she knows that if she hits the down button, she can turn to the other news channel and be able to rewind.


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> And that's where you're wrong.
> 
> To this small fraction of the D* population, its apparently important. But to my mom, it's not.
> BJ


What poll are you referring to? The one you invented in your head? The only poll of any kind I have seen was the one taken on dbstalk.com, and it showed that by an overwhelming margin, among experienced DVR users, DLB was considered VERY important. Since that poll more than likely includes people who actually like the HR20, that should mean something.

Your mom probably doesn't even know what DLB is, so why should her opinion of the matter be important to anyone but you and her?

If polls were taken of people who might be interested in buying a DVR 10 years ago, I'm sure that most people would see little benefit, since they probably would think it was pretty much the same as a VCR.

What would that prove? It would prove that when you want an expert opinion about something, you ask an expert.

I would venture most people don't know what DLB stands for. But if you took their TiVo's away from them and gave them an HR20, they would complain and complain loudly. But at DirecTV, no one would be listening.


----------



## MikeR7

raott said:


> Again, you are making the assumption that the laymen is not aware of the feature. That argument doesn't fly.
> 
> There have been a number of threads on D*'s own forum wondering what button to hit to get to their other show they are watching. The people that post on that forum (other than those that are trying to help) ARE laymen.
> 
> I'll go back to my wife, she has no idea what a DLB is, but she knows that if she hits the down button, she can turn to the other news channel and be able to rewind.


All this is very theoretical. We don't even know exactly how many HR20's are in use at this time do we? Do you think we are at 2 million yet? What would be your guess of how many of 2 million users are in the "must have" catagory? 30-40M at the most, I would bet. Probably even less. You only have a high number in this poll because the people that care are here. It would be my guess that less than half of the two million even know what DLB is, because they have never owned another DVR.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> Ah, but the difference is that the car you're referencing can _fly_. So yes, I'm going to live without the stereo because the friggin' thing can _fly _me to work.
> 
> BJ


If you want to add flying fine... BUT... occasionally its flight ability would shut down and you would crash (caller i.d. issues, manual recording issues, standard recording issues, audio drop-outs, mediaplay issues)..

Or more likely, you bought the car because they said it could fly, but it hasn't actually been installed in the car (VOD, MRV, 2 show recording+1 live, CIR, OTA)

But if you want to use something as technologically advanced like a flying car for your comparison, then you must think the HR20 is that far technologically advanced, but its not. The equivalent for your flight would be more like no-touch remote via mind control or built-in holographic video display. But it doesn't.


----------



## Que

ShiningBengal said:


> It isn't a fair analysis. Saying that the consumer will accept something is quite different from saying that he will like it. Many times, a consumer's decision is driven by a number of considerations. Including, perhaps, an evident attitutude that the consumer doesn't really know what's good for him...but of course, WE do!
> 
> Dual live buffers wansn't unique to TiVo. I believe Ultimate TV had them before TiVo did, since they released dual tuners first. Since that time, a number of cable DVR's have incorporated them. They are a good idea--one of the best reasons for having dual tuners in the first place.
> 
> The lack of them on the HR20 is inexcuseable, since there is no technical reason for them not to be there. To suggest that DirecTV succomed to advertiser pressure implies that advertisers call the shots when you pay your subscription fees to your signal provider. Just because they may be able to do so now doesn't mean that they will continue to do so.
> 
> Just one more reason to consider the Series 3 TiVo and cable. One more reason to buy your own set top box for the features it has--and perhaps pay a little more for that privilege!


I think most all DVRs have DLB (-D* ones). Does anyone know of another DVR that is not D* and does not have DLB??

I think it comes down to know how to code it. Most D* DVRs took a long time to get it *even* to work right. They still have a little way to go. OTA was not even active when release. Nothing really worked. I think most D* programmers are just thinking things out. They are a little too new for me but, with time I hope it will get there.


----------



## jheda

As i have said before, all polls are of small samples which can then be extrapolated ..your bets and guesses are just that.........but the poll used here is very well worded and is a reflection of what avid users find important, and CAN be extrapolated. This is a somewhat techie driven population, but no one can say with certainty whether that skews it to a MORE or LESS "DLB must have" votes.

I agree the common user may not know the term DLB but when thy upgrade out of the tivo, but they know damn well they miss it. I know that because i was that common user.

Keep the debate going, and please keep it kind... I remind you all that this sticky was given to us as a privelige.... 


MikeR7 said:


> All this is very theoretical. We don't even know exactly how many HR20's are in use at this time do we? Do you think we are at 2 million yet? What would be your guess of how many of 2 million users are in the "must have" catagory? 30-40M at the most, I would bet. Probably even less. You only have a high number in this poll because the people that care are here. It would be my guess that less than half of the two million even know what DLB is, because they have never owned another DVR.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> I think most all DVRs have DLB (-D* ones). Does anyone know of another DVR that is not D* and does not have DLB??
> 
> I think it comes down to know how to code it. Most D* DVRs took a long time to get it *even* to work right. They still have a little way to go. OTA was not even active when release. Nothing really worked. I think most D* programmers are just thinking things out. They are a little too new for me but, with time I hope it will get there.


From what I can gather...

The AT&T U-Verse DVR, doesn't have DLB (or QLB since it can record 4 streams)...
http://www.uverseusers.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,277.0/

Haven't seen anything out there, that has stated something has changed to give it DLB.

And the "work around" is to record the other stream.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I can gather...
> 
> The AT&T U-Verse DVR, doesn't have DLB (or QLB since it can record 4 streams)...
> http://www.uverseusers.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,277.0/
> 
> Haven't seen anything out there, that has stated something has changed to give it DLB.
> 
> And the "work around" is to record the other stream.


The implication of a "workaround" is that it works. Recording two streams to get pseudo DLB doesn't seem like it would work.

Wouldn't that just take you back to the beginning of the program on the channel you were flipping back to? If it were a 90 minute program, you'd have to use that pathetic (sorry but it is) fast forward function on the HR20 an intermininable number of times.

It seems also that with the HR20, we cannot record two programs and watch a third program previously recorded. That sucks big time, IMHO.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> The implied implication of a "workaround" is that it works. Recording two streams to get pseudo DLB doesn't seem like it would work.
> 
> Wouldn't that just take you back to the beginning of the program on the channel you were flipping back to? If it were a 90 minute program, you'd have to use that pathetic (sorry but it is) fast forward function on the HR20 an intermininable number of times.
> 
> It seems also that with the HR20, we cannot record two programs and watch a third program previously recorded. That sucks big time, IMHO.


The "implied" implication of a workaround.... HIT STOP instead of pause.
Sure it is a little more cumberson, then hit BACK or PREV...but stop will save your point. (and that is if you started the playback from the MyPlaylist and not just changed to the channel)... either way.... workarounds are just that... workarounds, and often are not as "Easy" as you would want themto be.

FYI: The statement you quoted, is the stated "work-around" for the AT&T U-Verse DVR, which I was referencing in that post.

------------------

As for your last statement.

Recording two programs at once, and watching a third previously recorded programs works, and has since the day the unit was released.
If your system is properly setup (with the proper SAT inputs), then you should have no issues recording two and watching something that was previously recorded.
During the first-run primtime season, that is pretty much the constant thing going on my main HR20 (two programs recording, while watching something else that was recorded).

The only issues I have seen with that, is if the HR20 "forgets" that you have a 2nd tuner, which a reboot usually cures.


----------



## jwd45244

ShiningBengal said:


> Nonsense. DLB was not part of TiVo's patentable code base. All kinds of 3rd rate DVR's copied this "exclusive feature" long ago. If it were patentable, it would have been patented. No patent exists.
> 
> Ultimate TV had dual live buffers even before TiVo did, since they beat TiVo to the market with dual tuners by a couple of months.


I did not say that it was part of Tivo's patentable code base, but it was something DTV would have to implement in its own.


----------



## jahgreen

jheda said:


> As i have said before, all polls are of small samples which can then be extrapolated ..your bets and guesses are just that.........but the poll used here is very well worded and is a reflection of what avid users find important, and CAN be extrapolated. This is a somewhat techie driven population, but no one can say with certainty whether that skews it to a MORE or LESS "DLB must have" votes.


Do we have a statistician in the house?

My bet is that if we did, he or she would tell you that the above statement is incorrect.

The poll has a terrible selection bias, especially self-selection. People who are ticked that they don't have DLB are much more likely to participate. Those who don't care about DLB are more likely to skip the thread. It's a classic statistical issue.

The fact that someone posts here, or at the DirecTV forums, has the same selection bias.

For a simple discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

I agree with those who opine that the great majority of DVR users, regardless of machine, do not use or are not aware of DLB. But we'll never know for sure unless somebody does a truly random statistical study.

By the way, I'd like to have DLB. No self-selection bias here!


----------



## bonscott87

Wow! DLB thread gone wild! 



ShiningBengal said:


> The implication of a "workaround" is that it works. Recording two streams to get pseudo DLB doesn't seem like it would work.


Works fine from the many who do it. It's not DLB but works. There are threads on this and it's in the Tips and Tricks document. It's not for everyone but hey, you can try it. Doesn't hurt anything.



> It seems also that with the HR20, we cannot record two programs and watch a third program previously recorded. That sucks big time, IMHO.


Ummmm, works just fine. Always has.


----------



## christo76

ShiningBengal said:


> It seems also that with the HR20, we cannot record two programs and watch a third program previously recorded. That sucks big time, IMHO.


The HR20 can do this. And I haven't had any problems with it yet.

But it was initially said (according to the manual) that it could actually *record 3* shows at once. I believe since then they decided to edit the manuals rather than make it a reality.

(I mis-spoke earlier when I said it was supposed to be able to record 2 shows and allow you to watch 1 live... technically thats correct, but it should record the 3rd as well)


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> From what I can gather...
> 
> The AT&T U-Verse DVR, doesn't have DLB (or QLB since it can record 4 streams)...
> http://www.uverseusers.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,277.0/
> 
> Haven't seen anything out there, that has stated something has changed to give it DLB.
> 
> And the "work around" is to record the other stream.


I have a Comcast Motorola DVR and it does not have DLB.

BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> I have a Comcast Motorola DVR and it does not have DLB.
> 
> BJ


The motorola 6412/6416's have DLBs, hit the "swap" button at the bottom of your remote.

Comcast uses the i-guide software. From Motorola's website at http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf:

"SWAP Between Two Programs
Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner. The SWAP
feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
• You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
• Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
Note: The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs. If you change channels without using the
SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


----------



## jheda

Statistics was my college minor. . NOT my major. Am aware of self selection, sample size, bias, etc. Again, I am *not *holding myself out to be a statistician.[

People who are ticked as they would rather see other features would *equally *likely participate. I am confident that people on this site may not care about an issue and still participate. IE, i was extremely vociferous on CC issues, although thank G-D have no need personally. I am not overly excited about VOD, but understand others do and particpate in its threads as much as possible. Its the nature of many of us on this site to participate for the good of the unit...so i dont agree that "People who are ticked that they don't have DLB are much more likely to participate. Those who don't care about DLB are more likely to skip the thread".

i do agree with you that the better sample would be a random ballot to all D* customers and until that time we will not know for certain. I do think though, there is relevance form this threads poll for reasons stated above.

QUOTE=jahgreen;1010669]Do we have a statistician in the house?

My bet is that if we did, he or she would tell you that the above statement is incorrect.

The poll has a terrible selection bias, especially self-selection. People who are ticked that they don't have DLB are much more likely to participate. Those who don't care about DLB are more likely to skip the thread. It's a classic statistical issue.

The fact that someone posts here, or at the DirecTV forums, has the same selection bias.

For a simple discussion, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

I agree with those who opine that the great majority of DVR users, regardless of machine, do not use or are not aware of DLB. But we'll never know for sure unless somebody does a truly random statistical study.

By the way, I'd like to have DLB. No self-selection bias here! [/QUOTE]


----------



## jclarke9999

I just re-wired my house so my old SD Tive could regain the DLB function I lost when I moved it after getting my HR20. Now I hope D* finishes the job for me on the HR20!


----------



## boltjames

raott said:


> The motorola 6412/6416's have DLBs, hit the "swap" button at the bottom of your remote.


Damn you Comcast and damn you Motorola for giving me a feature I did not know I had and do not need.

I'm going to start a poll and a thread to make sure they remove this useless feature. Who's with me?

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Thank you D*. Thank you for the 90 minute buffer instead of the DLB.
> 
> BJ


There is no evidence to support your conjecture that we only have a 90 minute buffer because DLB was not implemented.


----------



## morgantown

Although (surely mentioned already) the TiVo's did actually have two 45 minute buffers. You would only get the oldest 15 minutes if you selected to record the buffer.

Really though, who would not rather have the ability to buffer to shows, games, whatever when you are actually watching live TV? Hmmm...have two shows where you can pause, swap channels, and skip commercials, etc., or one buffer that evaporates each time you change the channel?

To each their own -- but I just don't get the position against dual buffers. Heck if you want to be able to rewind for 90 minutes just record the show.

Ba-humbug!


----------



## DblD_Indy

boltjames said:


> That's a swell theory, but it doesn't make sense. D* had years to build their own DVR and had more than a decade of key learning's from the likes of the T60 and HR10 to get it right.
> To say that the same "incompetent" designer that left off the DLB's is the same person that got us a 'stop' button, one-touch-recording, native mode, 90 minute buffer, speedy guides, etc. is quite a stretch.
> D* has smart people working there and they were the first service provider to offer an integrated STB w/DVR almost 10 years ago. They are listening to us now and are smartly tweaking the firmware as they go. If they wanted DLB on the HR20 it would be there. They left it off. On purpose. It's not coming back.
> BJ


*"To say that the same "incompetent" designer that left off the DLB's is the same person that got us a 'stop' button, one-touch-recording, native mode, 90 minute buffer, speedy guides, etc. is quite a stretch."*

Bla, bla bla!

None of these worked well in the beginning and as of yet are not shining examples of what they should be, except for *stop*, and *stop* man, that had to take some great skills. I had *"stop"* on my first 8 track tape player.

I really can't believe those who don't care about DLB's waste time trying to convince those of us who *really* care about this issue that our opinion does not matter.

So to put this in a way that you might understand, you're trying to convince us that DLB's doesn't matter should be as easy of a project as us trying to turn one of your devoted *Yanks* fans into a *Red Sox* fan over night. It just isn't happing.

So it would be nice if you found a happy thread where you can gloat to your con-DLB brethren about the wonderful product you have and let those of us who "care" about the issue debate how we can get it, and do so without changing any of your precious features like *stop*.

And if this is true, _"They left it off. On purpose. It's not coming back"_ then please, let's here it from D*TV Direct.

They have a website and could link their post to this site as they often spend much time reading this forum. But they have not yet made an official announcement about this issue and why&#8230;.? Because they know it would have a negative influence on their sales. They know the two year commitment and lease that goes with the unit is helping finance the birds that are going to bring more HD channels. So they keep their mouth shut and let you play the voice of the company and spend hours trying to convince us that black is white.

*Dude, Black is not now, nor ever will be White.*


----------



## ShiningBengal

DblD_Indy said:


> *"To say that the same "incompetent" designer that left off the DLB's is the same person that got us a 'stop' button, one-touch-recording, native mode, 90 minute buffer, speedy guides, etc. is quite a stretch."*
> 
> Bla, bla bla!
> 
> None of these worked well in the beginning and as of yet are not shining examples of what they should be, except for *stop*, and *stop* man, that had to take some great skills. I had *"stop"* on my first 8 track tape player.
> 
> I really can't believe those who don't care about DLB's waste time trying to convince those of us who *really* care about this issue that our opinion does not matter.
> 
> So to put this in a way that you might understand, you're trying to convince us that DLB's doesn't matter should be as easy of a project as us trying to turn one of your devoted *Yanks* fans into a *Red Sox* fan over night. It just isn't happing.
> 
> So it would be nice if you found a happy thread where you can gloat to your con-DLB brethren about the wonderful product you have and let those of us who "care" about the issue debate how we can get it, and do so without changing any of your precious features like *stop*.
> 
> And if this is true, _"They left it off. On purpose. It's not coming back"_ then please, let's here it from D*TV Direct.
> 
> They have a website and could link their post to this site as they often spend much time reading this forum. But they have not yet made an official announcement about this issue and why&#8230;.? Because they know it would have a negative influence on their sales. They know the two year commitment and lease that goes with the unit is helping finance the birds that are going to bring more HD channels. So they keep their mouth shut and let you play the voice of the company and spend hours trying to convince us that black is white.
> 
> *Dude, Black is not now, nor ever will be White.*


DblD, the problem is that most TiVo devotees liked the product because it finally gave them a modicom of control over their TV services. Non-devotees don't understand that the new generation DVR's like the HR20 take away a good deal of that control. DLB is only one example of where HR20 falls short.

I could give a rats behind about caller ID--particularly one that is so buggy you can't rely on it. Likewise, the 90 minute single buffer which I might make use of once a year. If other folks like it, fine, I have no problem with it. But to put such a "feature" along side something like DLB as somehow equal in value is an excersise in self delusion.

The HR20 is an incomplete and therefore inferior product. I think we are stuck with it, but it doesn't mean we have to sing the HR20's praises. It hasn't earned any in my opinion.


----------



## waynenm

ShiningBengal said:


> DblD, the problem is that most TiVo devotees liked the product because it finally gave them a modicom of control over their TV services. Non-devotees don't understand that the new generation DVR's like the HR20 take away a good deal of that control. DLB is only one example of where HR20 falls short.
> 
> I could give a rats behind about caller ID--particularly one that is so buggy you can't rely on it. Likewise, the 90 minute single buffer which I might make use of once a year. If other folks like it, fine, I have no problem with it. But to put such a "feature" along side something like DLB as somehow equal in value is an excersise in self delusion.
> 
> The HR20 is an incomplete and therefore inferior product. I think we are stuck with it, but it doesn't mean we have to sing the HR20's praises. It hasn't earned any in my opinion.


Agreed. We take what we get, so we can record 2 HD programs, and wait for the big D* HD roll-out. DLB would make things so much better, but apparently, not on the radar screen at D* in comparison to many other priorities.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> There is no evidence to support your conjecture that we only have a 90 minute buffer because DLB was not implemented.


We have no evidence of a lot of things, but it stands to reason that:

1. There is limited disc space for the buffer and that we wouldn't have two 90 minute ones.

2. DLB has been around for 10+ years and was deliberately left off the HR20.

3. #2 happened for a reason.

4. Since #3 is likely true, then #5 is definitely true.

5. DLB isn't going to be added to the HR20.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

morgantown said:


> Although (surely mentioned already) the TiVo's did actually have two 45 minute buffers. You would only get the oldest 15 minutes if you selected to record the buffer.
> 
> Really though, who would not rather have the ability to buffer to shows, games, whatever when you are actually watching live TV? Hmmm...have two shows where you can pause, swap channels, and skip commercials, etc., or one buffer that evaporates each time you change the channel?
> 
> To each their own -- but I just don't get the position against dual buffers. Heck if you want to be able to rewind for 90 minutes just record the show.
> 
> Ba-humbug!


For the record, I'm not anti-DLB. I'm anti those that make DLB such a cause celeb that they lose sight of the wonderful upsides of the HR20. If the HR20 was merely the HR10 without DLB, I could see the unhappiness. But the HR20 is superior in many ways and surely enough of those new functions cancel out DLB.

Just today I checked out the free MLB Extra Innings screen that lets you watch 8 games at once and move the audio as you see fit. With NFL Superfan, you'll be able to do the same thing. Who needs a buffer when you can watch both simultaneously? Again, a D* upside that needs recognition as perhaps a better way to handle the sports issue of no DLB.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

DblD_Indy said:


> Bla, bla bla!
> 
> None of these worked well in the beginning and as of yet are not shining examples of what they should be, except for.....


You are not pro-DLB. You are anti-HR20. You seem to be grouchy that you were made to suffer with some bugs early on and upset that I'm not experiencing the same thing with my new HR20. I don't get that.

As for D* having some responsibility to "post an answer to this forum", are you serious? Does McDonalds have to put up a big message on their homepage because a few fans want the McRib to return? Does Apple have to explain to iPhone buyers why they chose EDGE? Of course not. The big boys do what they want and they don't have to explain to anyone their rationale. Especially when one is the market leader and offers a service that cannot be gotten anywhere else, there's no reason on Earth for D* to pay attention to such a tweaky feature.

I'll keep saying this until it sinks in: The HD DVR that was once a cutting-edge, $1,000 rich-man's plaything has turned into a mass market, $199 common-man's set top box. You folks that are used to being coddled and listened to by D* have to face that fact. And once you do, you'll realize that it's no longer you tweaky video connesseurs that D* is trying to cater to with its HD DVR, and the audience that it's trying to reach now is of the "can't program my VCR's clock" ilk, circa 1989. Like cellphones before it, the DVR is now about closed standards, UI control, ease of use, and appealing to the lowest common denomenator. It's not for you; it's for your mom.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> We have no evidence of a lot of things, but it stands to reason that:
> 
> 1. There is limited disc space for the buffer and that we wouldn't have two 90 minute ones.
> 
> 2. DLB has been around for 10+ years and was deliberately left off the HR20.
> 
> 3. #2 happened for a reason.
> 
> 4. Since #3 is likely true, then #5 is definitely true.
> 
> 5. DLB isn't going to be added to the HR20.
> 
> BJ


I can't dispute #2 and #3, but I certainly can argue about #1.

You say we wouldn't have two 90 minute buffers because of limited disc space. Based on my thoughts below, that may be true, but I can only say ... no problem that there's limited disc space - it doesn't really matter. 

Let's say you watch the first 89 minutes of a 3-hour baseball game live and then press record. The first 90 minutes from the buffer and the last 90 minutes yet-to-be-recorded end up apparently being saved as one 3-hour block on the drive, but we don't know the details of how how the data is physically stored, including whether or not the data is contiguous.

You argue that we have limited space for the buffer, only 90 minutes long. If that was true, then every time a user pressed REC on the live buffer, that content has to be moved out of the reserved buffer space into the "regular" recording space. In this example above, the 89 minutes would have to be transferred out to "regular" drive space so the remaining portions of the program to be recorded can be appended to it. I don't think that happens, and here's why: "super-buffer".

Many users here, including me, have reported running into the "super-buffer" bug. It's a bug where the buffer reaches bizarre lengths, in my case, over 12-hours long. When you have super-buffer, you can rewind through the buffer for hours. This implies that there is *no limited, reserved space* for the buffer. Rather, it supports the idea that the buffer is dynamically allocated using available disc space. The only space I can see is that the HR20 reserves space on the drive for the 90 minute buffer, so that if your playlist reaches 100% full, you can still buffer live TV. That doesn't mean there can't be more than 90 minutes - it just means DIRECTV is saving space for AT LEAST 90 minutes.

Now ... if DIRECTV ever gave us a second tuner with buffering up to 90 minutes all they have to do is double the minimum space they reserve for the live buffers. What's the fallout? You may lose up to 90 minutes of space to store programs in your playlist. I know I'd be OK with that, and many other people who want DLB will be OK with that. But for those who AREN'T fine with that, I suggest DIRECTV add DLB as a user-configurable option: "Enable/Disable Buffering on Two Tuners."

DIRECTV can implement DLB and everyone's happy.


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> You are not pro-DLB. You are anti-HR20. You seem to be grouchy that you were made to suffer with some bugs early on and upset that I'm not experiencing the same thing with my new HR20. I don't get that.
> 
> As for D* having some responsibility to "post an answer to this forum", are you serious? Does McDonalds have to put up a big message on their homepage because a few fans want the McRib to return? Does Apple have to explain to iPhone buyers why they chose EDGE? Of course not. The big boys do what they want and they don't have to explain to anyone their rationale. Especially when one is the market leader and offers a service that cannot be gotten anywhere else, there's no reason on Earth for D* to pay attention to such a tweaky feature.
> 
> I'll keep saying this until it sinks in: The HD DVR that was once a cutting-edge, $1,000 rich-man's plaything has turned into a mass market, $199 common-man's set top box. You folks that are used to being coddled and listened to by D* have to face that fact. And once you do, you'll realize that it's no longer you tweaky video connesseurs that D* is trying to cater to with its HD DVR, and the audience that it's trying to reach now is of the "can't program my VCR's clock" ilk, circa 1989. Like cellphones before it, the DVR is now about closed standards, UI control, ease of use, and appealing to the lowest common denomenator. It's not for you; it's for your mom.
> 
> BJ


What a hoot! A $1000 set top box is "a rich man's toy?" DirecTV is "coddling" their best customers? Why wouldn't they? They still coddle their best customers in different ways--like free upgrades, etc. It's good business.

The first single tuner, non DVR USSB (DirecTV) receiver cost $700 over 10 years ago. This was designed to begin with to be a mass market appliance.

The first CD player, the Sony CDL-901 cost $1000 in 1984. Rich man's toy? The first Sony betamax with a 3 function wired remote control cost $1700 in 1980.

People routinely pay $3000-5000 for a TV set today.

Not at all unusual for people to pay $100 a month for cable or satellite service today.

Now, as to the "price" of the HR10. I got my first HR10 nearly 2 years ago for around $500. The last one, I got for $19.95 shipping. I don't think more than 5 or 10% of the HR10's sold for anything close to $1000.

And let's get real about the cost of these DVR's. There is no real difference, from a hardware standpoint, between an HR10 and and HR20. The difference is software and licensing. My last HR10 cost me, as I said, $19.95. I have to pay $100 for an inferior replacement.

This has NOTHING to do with cost. Zero. Get that silly notion out of your head.

You and I have pretty different definitions of "rich."

But I guess your definition of rich is that you can afford a tank of gas.


----------



## ShiningBengal

waynenm said:


> Agreed. We take what we get, so we can record 2 HD programs, and wait for the big D* HD roll-out. DLB would make things so much better, but apparently, not on the radar screen at D* in comparison to many other priorities.


The difference between big businesses and "mom and pop" business is that true enterprises can handle many priorities at one time. That's why they got big in the first place.

I doubt if the reason we don't have DLB has anything to do with DirecTV's ability to be multifocused on literally thousands of priorities. I think it has to do with who calls the shots at DirecTV. It is the shareholders. I believe that the HR20 was designed to placate and distract DVR users with meaningless bells and whistles (caller ID) while DirecTV took control of viewers eyeballs away from the viewers and back (where they believe it belongs) in the hands of advertisers.

Advertisers have bristled for years about DVR users ability to easily skip commercials. So DirecTV responded by getting rid of a perfectly functioning 30 second (or whatever you wanted) skip and replacing it with a clunky 30 second "slip." It isn't comparable, because you still see the commercials. It overshoots what you want to skip and makes it difficult to return to where you want to be in the program. It isn't user-friendly because DirecTV doesn't want this ability in their DVR's.

They got rid of dual live buffers because of the same consideration. It was too easy for viewers to skip commercials by flipping to another live program and then returning to the original program once the commercials were over.

You need to see the big picture in order to understand what is going on. We will probably see more of this kind of thing in the future. Things like product placement in the middle of programs so you can't get past commercials without skipping part of the commercial.

In a few years--maybe less--we will all look back on the HR10-250 as the pinnacle of viewer control over what he sees and hears on his own TV set.

They are probably considering getting rid of the mute control at this very moment. (I'm serious).


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> We have no evidence of a lot of things, but it stands to reason that:
> 
> 1. There is limited disc space for the buffer and that we wouldn't have two 90 minute ones.Considering there has been instances of superbuffers and dual buffers already, this would be wrong. Not to mention, VOD must also be impossible if there is no other room available.
> 
> 2. DLB has been around for 10+ years and was deliberately left off the HR20.May very well have been deliberate. But do we know for sure?
> 
> 3. #2 happened for a reason.
> 
> 4. Since #3 is likely true, then #5 is definitely true.
> 
> 5. DLB isn't going to be added to the HR20.This whole string of 2,3, & 5 makes no sense. OTA had been around for 10 years and was deliberately left off. Happened for a reason and was added. Saving your pause position was around... left off.... and was added, same for Call ID. Then you have MediaPlay, enet, VOD
> 
> BJ


Bottom line is, it was left off, but could still be added. May be far off or farfetched but still possible. They have never said they wouldn't/couldn't add it. *And they have said NO to things before. In the original manuals it states that you can record 3 things at once. They came out and said no.. that will never happen.*


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> The difference between big businesses and "mom and pop" business is that true enterprises can handle many priorities at one time. That's why they got big in the first place.
> 
> I doubt if the reason we don't have DLB has anything to do with DirecTV's ability to be multifocused on literally thousands of priorities. I think it has to do with who calls the shots at DirecTV. It is the shareholders. I believe that the HR20 was designed to placate and distract DVR users with meaningless bells and whistles (caller ID) while DirecTV took control of viewers eyeballs away from the viewers and back (where they believe it belongs) in the hands of advertisers.
> 
> Advertisers have bristled for years about DVR users ability to easily skip commercials. So DirecTV responded by getting rid of a perfectly functioning 30 second (or whatever you wanted) skip and replacing it with a clunky 30 second "slip." It isn't comparable, because you still see the commercials. It overshoots what you want to skip and makes it difficult to return to where you want to be in the program. It isn't user-friendly because DirecTV doesn't want this ability in their DVR's.
> 
> They got rid of dual live buffers because of the same consideration. It was too easy for viewers to skip commercials by flipping to another live program and then returning to the original program once the commercials were over.
> 
> You need to see the big picture in order to understand what is going on. We will probably see more of this kind of thing in the future. Things like product placement in the middle of programs so you can't get past commercials without skipping part of the commercial.
> 
> In a few years--maybe less--we will all look back on the HR10-250 as the pinnacle of viewer control over what he sees and hears on his own TV set.
> 
> They are probably considering getting rid of the mute control at this very moment. (I'm serious).


Welcome to my side of the argument. DLB is gone, not coming back.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

*ShiningBengal What a hoot! A $1000 set top box is "a rich man's toy?" DirecTV is "coddling" their best customers? Why wouldn't they? They still coddle their best customers in different ways--like free upgrades, etc. It's good business.*

My point is that D* used to have to focus on the tweaky part of their customer base because they were a small operation, and two years ago HD was not something the typical American could afford or could care about. Now that HD programming has reached critical mass and now that HD panels are dirt cheap, D* can go after a much bigger market segment and it's going to be at the expense of the early adopters. They need to grasp this concept.

*The first single tuner, non DVR USSB (DirecTV) receiver cost $700 over 10 years ago. This was designed to begin with to be a mass market appliance.*

Yeah, like any set top box or audio/video component that cost over $700 has ever been a mass market product. Show me one example in the history of US consumer home electronics at that pricepoint for a product that supports another technology.

*The first CD player, the Sony CDL-901 cost $1000 in 1984. Rich man's toy? The first Sony betamax with a 3 function wired remote control cost $1700 in 1980.*

And again, they sold a couple of thousand of each. Not until the portable CD player came down to $149 and the VCR came down to $199 did these make a dent in the industry. Sort of like BluRay right now.

*People routinely pay $3000-5000 for a TV set today.*

Wrong. Wealthy people and tech hounds routinely pay $3000 to $5000 for a TV today. It's those 720p $499 32" Syntax LCD HDTV's that sell to the masses.

*Not at all unusual for people to pay $100 a month for cable or satellite service today.*

Again, supports my point. My dad was paying $100 a month for cable back in 1986.

*This has NOTHING to do with cost. Zero. Get that silly notion out of your head.*

Never said it was about cost. Never said that D* cared about how much they give to a Chinese factory to buy these things. What I'm saying is that their attitude has changed. Where they used to have to cater to a rich HD owner, laying out $10k for a flat panel plasma, they now are catering to a mass audience, laying out as little as $500 to get into the HD arena. They don't have to worry about upsetting 100 HD loyalists with aging plamas or DLP's; there are enough common folk out there to offset those that they leave behind.

*You and I have pretty different definitions of "rich."*

That can happen easily when you don't grasp the point of a post. Substitute the word "rich" with the word "sophisticated". The 2004 HR10 buyer is a completely different animal than the 2007 HR20 buyer. Apples and oranges.

*But I guess your definition of rich is that you can afford a tank of gas.*

Come to one of my homes and we can discuss my definition of "rich". It's July, so I'd recommend the one on the beach.

BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> [
> Come to one of my homes and we can discuss my definition of "rich". It's July, so I'd recommend the one on the beach.
> BJ


Do you have a pier available at your beach house that can accommodate my 120' yacht? For someone with a lot of money you seem to care a lot about who knows it. :lol:

If you want to know the real reason that we don't have DLB on the HR20, read my last post.

It has nothing to do with cost, and has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you surmise motivated DirecTV's new, deluxe, stripped down HD-DVR. It does have everything to do with the growing percentage of people who own and use DVR's.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> If you want to know the real reason that we don't have DLB on the HR20, read my last post.
> 
> It has nothing to do with cost, and has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you surmise motivated DirecTV's new, deluxe, stripped down HD-DVR. It does have everything to do with the growing percentage of people who own and use DVR's.


So you now work for DirecTV and/or have contacts there to get the "real" reason?


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> Do you have a pier available at your beach house that can accommodate my 120' yacht? For someone with a lot of money you seem to care a lot about who knows it. :lol:
> 
> If you want to know the real reason that we don't have DLB on the HR20, read my last post.
> 
> It has nothing to do with cost, and has nothing to do with any of the other reasons you surmise motivated DirecTV's new, deluxe, stripped down HD-DVR. It does have everything to do with the growing percentage of people who own and use DVR's.


Oh, you mean my advertising pressure theory that was posted last week?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1002680&postcount=814

Preaching to the converted, my wealthy friend.

BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you now work for DirecTV and/or have contacts there to get the "real" reason?


I think my "real" reason is at least as good as any other I've seen here. When one sees what on the surface is completely illogical, one strains to find an underlying rationale.


----------



## jwd45244

Again, I think the reason we don't have dual-buffers is more simple. I suspect that given the hardware within the HR20, implementing DLB is harder than people think. 

Should it be hard? I have no clue and neither does anyone here. Are there reasons that it could be very hard? Yes. I suspect we can't just take the SLB and cut it in half without breaking lots of other things. 

As a person that has been involved with programming and computers for over 30 years, I can tell you that often the easiest things to use are often the hardest to engineer.


----------



## rick71ghia

If it's advertising pressure, how come Comcast with 24.2 million subscribers has DLB but Directv with 16.2 million subscribers does not? And, that's just Comcast.


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> Oh, you mean my advertising pressure theory that was posted last week?
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1002680&postcount=814
> 
> Preaching to the converted, my wealthy friend.
> 
> BJ


I didn't read your earlier post, but obviously, I am complete agreement with it.


----------



## ShiningBengal

jwd45244 said:


> Again, I think the reason we don't have dual-buffers is more simple. I suspect that given the hardware within the HR20, implementing DLB is harder than people think.
> 
> Should it be hard? I have no clue and neither does anyone here. Are there reasons that it could be very hard? Yes. I suspect we can't just take the SLB and cut it in half without breaking lots of other things.
> 
> As a person that has been involved with programming and computers for over 30 years, I can tell you that often the easiest things to use are often the hardest to engineer.


So a little upstart company called TiVo, at the time privately owned, with very limited capital, 10 years ago could come up with a DVR with features that apparently DirecTV, with its billions in capitalization couldn't duplicate today.

Sorry, but I find that extremely hard to believe.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you now work for DirecTV and/or have contacts there to get the "real" reason?


We are making guesses Earl because the people that DO have the contacts, ie you and Tom, are not saying anything other than D* knows we want it and it hasn't been ruled in and out.

If my speculation is wrong that you and Tom have been told more than you are able to share with us, how about the next time the issue comes up with your contacts, you follow up with asking why it wasn't included and what is holding back what many of us see as a relatively easy decision to include the feature (even if other priorities and features are coming first).


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> So you now work for DirecTV and/or have contacts there to get the "real" reason?


Sorry, Earl, but without an official or 'backdoor' statement from D* on why it hasn't been implemented this is exactly what is to be expected. People have every reason to come up with their own theories on why it hasn't been done because until D* provides an answer, this is only going to continue.


----------



## jwd45244

ShiningBengal said:


> So a little upstart company called TiVo, at the time privately owned, with very limited capital, 10 years ago could come up with a DVR with features that apparently DirecTV, with its billions in capitalization couldn't duplicate today.
> 
> Sorry, but I find that extremely hard to believe.


That is the norm in business. Small companies or small groups within large companies are the centers of innovation. The other things that that Tivo is / was in the DVR business and that is all. DirecTV's DVR is one delivery vehicle for the content they provide.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> We are making guesses Earl because the people that DO have the contacts, ie you and Tom, are not saying anything other than D* knows we want it and it hasn't been ruled in and out.
> 
> If my speculation is wrong that you and Tom have been told more than you are able to share with us, how about the next time the issue comes up with your contacts, you follow up with asking why it wasn't included and what is holding back what many of us see as a relatively easy decision to include the feature (even if other priorities and features are coming first).





tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, Earl, but without an official or 'backdoor' statement from D* on why it hasn't been implemented this is exactly what is to be expected. People have every reason to come up with their own theories on why it hasn't been done because until D* provides an answer, this is only going to continue.


I never said you couldn't "theorize" or discuss it...

My quote was in response to the poster stating: He had the "REAL" reason...
_That's it._

You all can continue "theorizing" it all you want... I won't stop you.
Just don't call it the REAL answer, unless you have it as FACT..

You can call it your theory... My idea on why... I am pretty sure it is because, ect....


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> I never said you couldn't "theorize" or discuss it...
> 
> My quote was in response to the poster stating: He had the "REAL" reason...
> _That's it._
> 
> You all can continue "theorizing" it all you want... I won't stop you.
> Just don't call it the REAL answer, unless you have it as FACT..
> 
> You can call it your theory... My idea on why... I am pretty sure it is because, ect....


So why has the REAL answer been so hard to get? The R15 has been out for 19 months now. The question has been asked over and over since even before it was introduced - and D* gives us basically nothing as a response.

Simple straight forward questions for you -

One - Have you been told more than you are allowed to share with us on the issue?

Two - If not, can you please again ask your contacts and get a real reason as to why this, basic (and important to many of us) feature is still undecided. To many of us, it seems simple enough of a decision to make. They must have some rationale that, for some reason, appears to be top secret.


----------



## boltjames

raott said:


> Two - If not, can you please again ask your contacts and get a real reason as to why this, basic (and important to many of us) feature is still undecided. To many of us, it seems simple enough of a decision to make. They must have some rationale that, for some reason, appears to be top secret.


Whoa, if Mr. Bonovich has a question to ask D* on behalf of all of us, I'd rather see him ask about the color of the power cord instead of DLB. That black color is so passe; I think an off-grey or white would be much better looking. Let's focus on the important issues here.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

rick71ghia said:


> If it's advertising pressure, how come Comcast with 24.2 million subscribers has DLB but Directv with 16.2 million subscribers does not? And, that's just Comcast.


It is possible that because the D* DVR is newer, it is a precursor of the way all future DVR's will be made. Possible that features designed to limit or even eliminate watching commercials are being designed out of this category of product per the advertising community.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> So why has the REAL answer been so hard to get? The R15 has been out for 19 months now. The question has been asked over and over since even before it was introduced - and D* gives us basically nothing as a response.


Simply put: The "REAL" answer is, they didn't include it.
I have never gotten, and never expect to get... any details on what went on in the design meetings of the R15... which most likely had direct corrilation to it not being on the HR20.

I can ask till I am blue in the face (which I have stop doing)... and I will probably never get an answer to "WHY" it wasn't there.



raott said:


> Simple straight forward questions for you -
> 
> One - Have you been told more than you are allowed to share with us on the issue?
> 
> Two - If not, can you please again ask your contacts and get a real reason as to why this, basic (and important to many of us) feature is still undecided. To many of us, it seems simple enough of a decision to make. They must have some rationale that, for some reason, appears to be top secret.


For #1: Yes (did you really expect a different answer?)
For #2 (even though #1 was Yes):

As of today: There is no definitive future of DLB answer. 
I can't share with you "why" there is no definitive answer yet...

But... I can elaborate a bit more on your comments:
While you may see DLB as a "BASIC" feature.... underneath, it is far from a "BASIC" task to implement... especially when the original core was not built to support it. (it is not like they can just flip a switch and turn it on).

They have a rationale... but it one that can't share at this time.

And before anyone else asks:
No, even if you offer me money... or ask pretty please... I really can't share with you more then what I already have.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> even eliminate watching commercials are being designed out of this category of product per the advertising community.


I can flat out tell you that "watching commercials" has 100% zero to do with the lack of DLB...

Because nothing is stoping you from recording the programs, and FFing through them.

Nothing is stopping you from channel surfing.


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> And before anyone else asks:
> No, even if you offer me money... or ask pretty please... I really can't share with you more then what I already have.


Rethink this, boss. I've got an 18 year old sister that'll do anything to get that answer out of you. _Anything_.

BJ


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> Whoa, if Mr. Bonovich has a question to ask D* on behalf of all of us, I'd rather see him ask about the color of the power cord instead of DLB. That black color is so passe; I think an off-grey or white would be much better looking. Let's focus on the important issues here.
> 
> BJ


boltjames, if DLB is not important to you, then please don't bother to continue to post in this thread.

I don't need you to tell me what features should or should not be important to me. For a feature you don't care about, you sure spend alot of time in that part of the forum.


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can flat out tell you that "watching commercials" has 100% zero to do with the lack of DLB...
> 
> Because nothing is stoping you from recording the programs, and FFing through them.
> 
> Nothing is stopping you from channel surfing.


Ah, thank you for clearing that up.

_(.....BJ thinks to himself "Nice try. That's the real reason, but he wants to cover it up because we caught on. I'll play along.)_

BJ


----------



## boltjames

raott said:


> boltjames, if DLB is not important to you, then please don't bother to continue to post in this thread.
> 
> I don't need you to tell me what features should or should not be important to me. For a feature you don't care about, you sure spend alot of time in that part of the forum.


I am not trying to tell you what should or shouldn't be important to you. I merely am chiming in with an opinion on the function and possible reasons why it hasn't been implemented.

BJ


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> It is possible that because the D* DVR is newer, it is a precursor of the way all future DVR's will be made. Possible that features designed to limit or even eliminate watching commercials are being designed out of this category of product per the advertising community.
> 
> BJ


Why stop at DLB... or maybe the next model won't stop there...

Sweet... THE NEW DVR.... Now allows you to record shows and you can skip through commercials with either 1xffw (aka play) or .5xffw.

Personally I am gonna wait until Advertisers finally have enough voice, that dvr's and all receivers are programmed to cause their products to actually glow on screen during shows, ensuring that we see them.

I would like to think pleasing views and advertisers is a fine line that D* and others, are trying to walk. But I do worry that they just assume that eventually the masses will be happy with what they are given, be it slip instead of skip, no DLB, forced ads in guides... who knows where that slippery slop will lead.


----------



## sshams95

Earl Bonovich said:


> And before anyone else asks:
> No, even if you offer me money... or ask pretty please... I really can't share with you more then what I already have.


The 50 yard line seats at a Bears game of your choice offer still stands!


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Simply put: The "REAL" answer is, they didn't include it.
> 
> For #1: Yes (did you really expect a different answer?)
> For #2 (even though #1 was Yes):
> 
> As of today: There is no definitive future of DLB answer.
> I can't share with you "why" there is no definitive answer yet...
> 
> They have a rationale... but it one that can't share at this time.


Fair enough.

I guess I'll be whining to retention for two HR20s instead of one when my house is done. Do it yourself DLBs. :grin:


----------



## jheda

thanks earl for taking the time and bringing us up to date....]


----------



## morgantown

boltjames said:


> For the record, I'm not anti-DLB. I'm anti those that make DLB such a cause celeb that they lose sight of the wonderful upsides of the HR20. If the HR20 was merely the HR10 without DLB, I could see the unhappiness. But the HR20 is superior in many ways and surely enough of those new functions cancel out DLB.
> 
> Just today I checked out the free MLB Extra Innings screen that lets you watch 8 games at once and move the audio as you see fit. With NFL Superfan, you'll be able to do the same thing. Who needs a buffer when you can watch both simultaneously? Again, a D* upside that needs recognition as perhaps a better way to handle the sports issue of no DLB.
> 
> BJ


I understand where you are coming from, I really do.


----------



## Que

raott said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I guess I'll be whining to retention for two HR20s instead of one when my house is done. Do it yourself DLBs. :grin:


Let me know how that go. I might have to do the same thing.


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can flat out tell you that "watching commercials" has 100% zero to do with the lack of DLB...
> 
> Because nothing is stoping you from recording the programs, and FFing through them.
> 
> Nothing is stopping you from channel surfing.


 Ha someone said that!


> While you may see DLB as a "BASIC" feature.... underneath, it is far from a "BASIC" task to implement... especially when the original core was not built to support it. (it is not like they can just flip a switch and turn it on).


 I knew it wasn't just a easy fix for them. The original core didn't have OTA but with time it did. Heck it took a long time to get this far. I still think they need to get some more people in there to help them out.

I am sure that with time and a lot of work the HR20 will have DLB.


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> I am sure that with time and a lot of work the HR20 will have DLB.


No, it won't. The advertisers won't stand for it or any other function that limits the amount of eyeballs that fall on their commercials.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> No, it won't. The advertisers won't stand for it or any other function that limits the amount of eyeballs that fall on their commercials.
> 
> BJ


BJ - I respect your right to express an opinion, but it really shouldn't be expressed as fact. If we are to believe your theory about advertisers, we wouldn't even have skip to tick on the HR20, yet we have it. We can skip over scores of commercials. We also have bookmarks, so the first person watching a show can set bookmarks at the end of each commercial break, and the next person along can use those bookmarks to skip over the commercials.

Advertisers are learning to adapt to changing technology, but please don't give them more credit than they deserve for the lack of DLB or any other feature in the HR20.


----------



## jheda

With the roll out of 17e, Earls notes state: "Playback of currrently recording show is paused if user toggles to live and 
back (SLB)"

this appears to means the LIVE SHOW remains paused as you toggle to the recorded show, and u toggle by going to the recorded show with List and back to live with Exit.

This is a huge improvement. Only recording one show cuts down significantly on hard drive space, and the workaround is significantly easier.

Is it DLB ? no. Is it a great step in the right direction, and more evidence that D* is listening to its subs? i think yes....


----------



## puffnstuff

jheda said:


> With the roll out of 17e, Earls notes state: "Playback of currrently recording show is paused if user toggles to live and
> back (SLB)"
> 
> this appears to means the LIVE SHOW remains paused as you toggle to the recorded show, and u toggle by going to the recorded show with List and back to live with Exit.
> 
> This is a huge improvement. Only recording one show cuts down significantly on hard drive space, and the workaround is significantly easier.
> 
> Is it DLB ? no. Is it a great step in the right direction, and more evidence that D* is listening to its subs? i think yes....


wasn't that in the last 2 ce's?


----------



## LOBO2999

puffnstuff said:


> wasn't that in the last 2 ce's?


I have the last CE , which was D and I have tried this and it does not work , maybe in E


----------



## billsharpe

raott said:


> boltjames, if DLB is not important to you, then please don't bother to continue to post in this thread.
> 
> I don't need you to tell me what features should or should not be important to me. For a feature you don't care about, you sure spend alot of time in that part of the forum.


Hey, one choice in the poll is I don't care about the feature. And another is I like it but it's ok if it's not there.

I never used a TiVo and so I don't care. There's a fairly simple workaround of recording two shows to solve the problem for those that like the feature.

Bill


----------



## puffnstuff

LOBO2999 said:


> I have the last CE , which was D and I have tried this and it does not work , maybe in E


I just tred it and it worked fine how are you trying to do it ? OH and I am also on D


----------



## christo76

billsharpe said:


> Hey, one choice in the poll is I don't care about the feature. And another is I like it but it's ok if it's not there.
> 
> I never used a TiVo and so I don't care. There's a fairly simple workaround of recording two shows to solve the problem for those that like the feature.
> 
> Bill


The issue is that it DOESN'T really solve the problem. Yes it may work for certain cases, but it also causes issues for others.

For example, I was watching the Brewers in HD on sunday. I like to skip ahead between innings or long at-bats. I wanted to watch other things to let the game get ahead, so I hit record on the brewers game. I also went into my list and noted that I was at 20% remaining of disk space. After a couple shows I went back and watched the game. When the game was over, there had been 2 hrs recorded. Checking back into List, and I see that 2 hrs used up 8% (now at 12% free). If I were to have recorded the whole game, around 3 hrs, I would expect to use 12% minimum (or a lot more considering ch. 95 had it listed as going for an extra 6+ hrs).

We now expand that 12% into the typical fall sunday DLB scenario, with 2 games (the limit for this method). Assuming the games don't go long (and in the process screw me out of the end), I am looking at 24% used for 2 games. BUT... I only have 20% available.... So I don't see this method as a fix.

And I don't think that I should have to go through and erase things I have wanted to keep, or spend the money on an eSATA (that isn't even officially supported), just to watch something that will be immediately deleted. THAT was the whole point of DLB.


----------



## raott

billsharpe said:


> Hey, one choice in the poll is I don't care about the feature. And another is I like it but it's ok if it's not there.
> 
> I never used a TiVo and so I don't care. There's a fairly simple workaround of recording two shows to solve the problem for those that like the feature.
> 
> Bill


As has been covered time and time again, the workaround doesn't solve the problem:

1- pause points don't stay paused (at least on the R15)
2- you have to go through at least two additional steps every time you want to go to another channel (ie change the channel, hit hit the down button to tell it to yes you really want to stop recording, hit enter)
3- If you have already hit the 100 limit, it is at least an additional step (tell it what show you don't want to record down the road because you are already at a 100 limit)


----------



## ShiningBengal

billsharpe said:


> Hey, one choice in the poll is I don't care about the feature. And another is I like it but it's ok if it's not there.
> 
> I never used a TiVo and so I don't care. There's a fairly simple workaround of recording two shows to solve the problem for those that like the feature.
> 
> Bill


You are fortunate you did not own a TiVo, because the vast majority of former (or current for that matter) TiVo users do miss this feature.

Let me put it this way: With the HR20, you really don't have access to the 2nd tuner unless you are actually recording something on it. You can't just switch from one tuner to another like you can with TiVo. It's like having two DVR's instead of one. You can pause one tuner, go to the other and change the channel of that other tuner. Watch that tuner for up to 45 minutes and then return to the first tuner and it is still paused. Now you can watch that tuner to the end of the show that was on it, and fast forward through every commercial.

There are many other ways to use dual live buffers, but you get the idea from the above scenario.


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> You are fortunate you did not own a TiVo, because the vast majority of former (or current for that matter) TiVo users do miss this feature.


You have no proof of this. And if they do miss it, I'd argue, they get over it very quickly and enjoy the more important additional features that the HR20 offers.

This isn't New Coke here. The HR20 is a brilliant device. You're drinking the same old Coke you've always loved, and you're complaining about the pulltab. Stop it.










BJ


----------



## Drewg5

Wow this is still going. :nono2: :nono: 

Oh well, D* has added a lot of things to the HR20 something tells me the chance for this is getting slim


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> The HR20 is a brilliant device.
> BJ


You have no proof of this. It is solely your own opinion, and you are entitled to it--just as I am to mine.

The DLB feature was cited on a recent poll here by more than 75% as "very important." Not scientific, by any means, but certainly more objective than your purely subjective statement about the brilliance of the HR20.

By the way, I didn't say the HR20 was a piece of doo-doo. But it is still seriously flawed, and still buggy. Far short of "brilliant" in my view. It is true that it isn't as buggy as it was when it was first released how many software upgrades back, but far more buggy than TiVo ever was. Even in comparison with my DSR6000 that still works flawlessly after 6 years.


----------



## Drewg5

ShiningBengal said:


> It is true that it isn't as buggy as it was when it was first released how many software upgrades back, but far more buggy than TiVo ever was.


True: This system is worlds better than it once was.

Not true! Both systems have their unique problems. Google TiVo bugs or problems and there are way more pages, when doing the same for the HR 20. Keeping in mind to only search the newest TiVo.

Every one knew this DVR wasn't a TiVo, yet that is all most want it to be.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drewg5 said:


> True: This system is worlds better than it once was.
> Every one knew this DVR wasn't a TiVo, yet that is all most want it to be.


Nonsense. I don't care if the HR20 is a TiVo, just as I didn't care if the first TiVo I bought 6 years ago was a TiVo. But is it too much to expect that it be as good as a six your old TiVo? Drew, the HR20 doesn't do the basics well. That's its problem. Sure, it does all kinds of other things just fine, but it's buggy and unreliable.

Last night while I was watching "live" TV on one Hr20 tuner while the other tuner was recording, the system simply stopped responding to the remote. The only way I could "fix" it was to reboot the system, losing the show I was recording, and losing 10 minutes of the program I was watching "live."

I thought, oh, well. Probably some fluke that will never happen again. Wrong. It happened again this afternoon.

That has NEVER happened with any of my TiVo's--and I've owned 5 of them. This isn't DLB carping. This is BASICS!


----------



## DblD_Indy

1000 POSTS!

Can't be wrong! PLEASE Give us back our DLB!


----------



## boltjames

DblD_Indy said:


> 1000 POSTS!
> 
> Can't be wrong! PLEASE Give us back our DLB!


Two things:

"Can't be wrong" is, in actuality, 'wrong'. Of the 1000 posts, around 400 are from those who don't think DLB is important.

"Give us BACK our DLB" is, in actuality, 'wrong'. It was never there, so you are asking them to give you back something that doesn't exist (and never will).

BJ


----------



## jheda

"give us back our DLB", BJ, as in those who upgraded and lost the feature, 

come on BJ, is agitating posters that much fun? did u really count posts?

AGain, i think u r a closet DLB fan, as thou protesteth too much


----------



## jahgreen

boltjames said:


> Two things:
> 
> "Can't be wrong" is, in actuality, 'wrong'. Of the 1000 posts, around 400 are from those who don't think DLB is important.
> BJ


Of course, 350 of the 400 were BJ.


----------



## burnside

boltjames said:


> Two things:
> 
> Of the 1000 posts, around 400 are from those who don't think DLB is important.
> 
> BJ


And out of the 2017 who have voted, 1896 either want it back or would like the option. :grin:


----------



## Que

*How DLB works on most other DVRs*



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.





> *HR20 does not save your pause point.*There really isn't a good workaround.


*List of some DVRs with DLB*

COX and Comcast has it with the Moto Box
Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB
S3 from TIVO Has DLB
HR10-250
SD-DVR40
Hughes GXCEBOTD

*If you feel strongly about DLB. Please copy and print this letter. Make sure to include your account number and name. *

...coming soon...

Mail to:
*
Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550*



> Originally Posted by boltjames
> Can I impose upon someone to give me the backstory here? Why is this simple functional request such a political issue requiring segregated threads, thread closings, etc.?





cygnusloop said:


> I can give you my take, I suppose. (I want to preface this by saying that I realize that this is "just TV", but this is a DBS forum, and here, TV is everything. I have a life, a family, a job, and am reasonably fulfilled, with or without TV. So take this in the context of a TV based forum.)
> 
> One reason is the sheer number of users that want it. That certainly is part of it. A very large number of HR20 lessees, came to this box from either SD DirecTivos, or the HR10.
> 
> Particularly in the case of the HR10, the users were essentially forced to upgrade if they wanted to get their LiL's in HD. So, they get this box (that didn't work very well at the time), and it was inexplicably missing what many feel is a key feature, and at that, for no good reason. The thing has dual tuners, and the capability to record two HD streams, how was it possible that the designers neglected to include DLB?
> 
> Second, (and the part that I don't feel you yet appreciate, BJ) is how this particular feature changed forever the way many of us watch TV at a very basic level.
> 
> While, for me, DLB is most missed for sports programming, it was a feature that I used on a daily basis. Sure, I recorded lots of programs for later viewing. In fact, I would say most of my family's viewing was done that way. Primetime programs, movies, kids shows, etc...
> 
> But, I also like to surf. That's how I would typically find new programs I wanted to record. To me, and many others, surfing with DLB is television nirvana, and the Tivo implementation was really good. When I first discovered this feature, it was one of those "where have you been all my life" kind of moments, akin to the first time I hooked up my HDTV. Absolute bliss.
> 
> So that's another part of it, passion.
> 
> I understand, BJ, that you don't share that passion, but to understand why this topic is such a hot button, you have to realize that many do feel it, deep in their gut.
> 
> Lastly, the biggest source of annoyance, I think, to those that don't care about, or are actively against DLB (yeah, I'm looking at you JeremyW ), is the sheer number of threads that pop up. So, why do these DLB threads tend to crop up on an almost daily basis? Because most people coming to the HR20 are coming from another DVR, and most of those DVR's had DLB. Whether or not the user knew to call it that.
> 
> Many, perhaps even most, of the DLB threads come from a new member, one that recently upgraded to the HR20, and the OP is often a very innocent question such as, "How do I switch tuners on the HR20?"
> 
> Someone replies, "You can't."
> 
> The new member, not knowing the history of the "Great DLB Wars" on this forum, goes off on a rant about the lack of dual buffers, as it is such an obvious feature of a dual tuner device, that most new users would never think to check ahead of time to see if it exists on the HR20.
> 
> And the flame wars begin..... again.....
> 
> Some new members get so PO'd about this (remember the passion part), they start spamming completely unrelated threads with their displeasure about the lack of DLB. Not being invested in this forum, they don't care that their actions are contrary to the goals of this forum, and many of its members. The moderators (rightly) have to step in to close threads, or ban users, and that's where it gets political.
> 
> This is why I think the idea to have ONE sticky thread for all things DLB is a great idea. When a new member posts one of these "innocent" questions, they can be referred to the sticky, and the thread can be closed before things get out of hand. Once on the sticky, the new member can rant their brains out to a sympathetic audience. No fuss, no muss. No spamming, no bans.
> 
> At least that's my take. Thanks for listening.


* So who wants to help with this letter? * Need a list of all DVRs that has DLB. Also add this poll. Thanks!


----------



## puffnstuff

I really want this letter thing to get started . But I suck at writing letters . So please somebody help !!!!!! If you write the letter I promise I will bombard (bombardment bombardment) them every day with letters !


----------



## ShiningBengal

puffnstuff said:


> I really want this letter thing to get started . But I suck at writing letters . So please somebody help !!!!!! If you write the letter I promise I will bombard (bombardment bombardment) them every day with letters !


I'm not at all sure this would be productive. DirecTV certainly has people monitoring this forum already. What would be helpful would be if DirecTV would step up to the plate and publicly announce what their intentions are. (Just like they have been announcing for nearly a year all the new Hi Def channels they are going to have.)

I can be patient, especially if I know that DirecTV is committed to correcting a design error.

Apologies in advance to BJ, but there is no nicer way to put this! For the few who don't appreciate DLB, they can ignore it if and when this error is rectified.


----------



## DblD_Indy

boltjames said:


> Two things:
> 
> "Give us BACK our DLB" is, in actuality, 'wrong'. It was never there, so you are asking them to give you back something that doesn't exist (and never will).
> 
> BJ


*Who other than me would like to see an end to BJ's posts on this thread.*

If so,

Join me in PM'ing a MOD and see if we can get his negativity and poor attitude banned from this thread.

As for your wrong, I have never had a DVR from D*TV without it, and this unit is my third generation of DVR's from them. So yes, give it BACK is correct as you would assume an upgrade to have at least the same features.


----------



## cygnusloop

DblD_Indy said:


> *Who other than me would like to see an end to BJ's posts on this thread.*
> 
> If so,
> 
> Join me in PM'ing a MOD and see if we can get his negativity and poor attitude banned from this thread.


Come on, now. 
IMHO, this thread is for the debate about DLB, both pro and con. While BJ's particular sense of humor may not be for everyone, his view is as welcome as anyone else's.

Plus, when we do get DLB, we will have a complete record of the absolute and total wrongness of Mr. boltjames. :lol: :eek2:

That's at least worth something, no?


----------



## jahgreen

DblD_Indy said:


> *Who other than me would like to see an end to BJ's posts on this thread.*
> 
> If so,
> 
> Join me in PM'ing a MOD and see if we can get his negativity and poor attitude banned from this thread.


Not me. In fact, I'd like the mods to take this as my vote AGAINST any such ban.

If any poster's opinion is intolerable to you, use the ignore function, and you will live in bliss.


----------



## BrettStah

I'm pro-bolt, in a non-awkward way.


----------



## jheda

thats what i do, as do others...

QUOTE=jahgreen;1018070]Not me. In fact, I'd like the mods to take this as my vote AGAINST any such ban.

If any poster's opinion is intolerable to you, use the ignore function, and you will live in bliss.[/QUOTE]


----------



## puffnstuff

ShiningBengal said:


> I'm not at all sure this would be productive. DirecTV certainly has people monitoring this forum already. What would be helpful would be if DirecTV would step up to the plate and publicly announce what their intentions are. (Just like they have been announcing for nearly a year all the new Hi Def channels they are going to have.)
> 
> I can be patient, especially if I know that DirecTV is committed to correcting a design error.
> 
> Apologies in advance to BJ, but there is no nicer way to put this! For the few who don't appreciate DLB, they can ignore it if and when this error is rectified.


Until they do though I need something to do  As for patience I guess they have almost run out I can maybe only last till football season before I have to do something drastic . (like write a whole bunch o letters)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

DblD_Indy said:


> *Who other than me would like to see an end to BJ's posts on this thread.*
> 
> If so,
> 
> Join me in PM'ing a MOD and see if we can get his negativity and poor attitude banned from this thread.
> 
> As for your wrong, I have never had a DVR from D*TV without it, and this unit is my third generation of DVR's from them. So yes, give it BACK is correct as you would assume an upgrade to have at least the same features.


Absolutely NOT... no matter how many of you PM us...
(and the notion that we would even consider it, is ... well let's say disappointing for the lack of a better word)

Now :backtotop !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
regarding DLB, and not about the moderation of the site.

If you find something truely wrong with a post... report it, and it will be reviewed.


----------



## sshams95

Back to topic,

Earl, on the Cutting Edge forum, you stated that DLB is "not 100% buried"...what is the percentage then?

My interpretation of this is that it's on its way to being buried, correct me if I'm wrong.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=92902

Thanks.


----------



## boltjames

BrettStah said:


> I'm pro-bolt, in a non-awkward way.


Thank God some of you understand my humor. I'm pro-Brett, awkward or not. Sorry I was away for a few days; been busy buying another acronym 










And yes, it does come with DLB (Dual Lumbar Bolsters).

BJ


----------



## jwd45244

Bolt:

Very nice ride!


----------



## Volman

I KNEW I'd miss DLB when I jumped from the HR10,but never imagined how much I'd miss it.And it's not even FB season!


----------



## Que

A must have! 1545 75.88%
Don't really care about it. 121 5.94%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 370 18.17%
Voters: 2036.

Replies 1,018 Views 59,638


----------



## gblues

> How DLB works on most other DVRs
> 
> Quote:
> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.
> Quote:
> HR20 does not save your pause point.There really isn't a good workaround.
> 
> List of some DVRs with DLB
> 
> COX and Comcast has it with the Moto Box
> Vip622 from Dish Network has DLB
> S3 from TIVO Has DLB
> HR10-250
> SD-DVR40
> Hughes GXCEBOTD


Out of these listed, all but 2 are TiVo hardware/software. Not really a valid comparison. It's like begging Microsoft for IE for Linux, and citing Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows 2000, Windows 98SE, and Mac OSX for other OSs that have IE available.


----------



## MrDad0330

Football, Baseball, gold or whatever..I love my Tivos and never had a single problem with them and still dont. The HR20 has many hi tech bells and whistles but in the basics dept, DLB's make it all beautiful. For those of you that never had the DirecTV Tivos, it would be hard for you to understand what we are talking about. You really are controlling what you watch. 
I applaud D for attempting to bring us a truely state of the art machine. There are functions I dont even use yet cuz I dont have Vista yet. From many or your posts I can see what the future holds in what the HR20 will do BUT true love is DLB. If D monitors this (as they should) I hope they are beginning to at least think about DLB. With them my still in use Tivo's would be nothing but a nice memory and the HR20 would be a dream machine.


----------



## raott

gblues said:


> Out of these listed, all but 2 are TiVo hardware/software. Not really a valid comparison. It's like begging Microsoft for IE for Linux, and citing Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows 2000, Windows 98SE, and Mac OSX for other OSs that have IE available.


No, it is a valid comparison since D* had DLBs on their previous version DVRs, I don't care who made the software.

The other two just happen to be two of the largest cable operators and the other satellite provider. That doesn't count the smaller cable operators, ie Insight, who are also using the motorola box with DLBs.

Obviously, they have reasons they do not want to do it. Those reasons apparantly have been communicated to Earl. However, IMO, fearing a small backlash, those reasons are not able to be communicated to the public at large. I dont' see any other reason that after 19 months with the R15, there is still silence and Earl isn't allowed to tell us what he knows.


----------



## erosroadie

raott said:


> No, it is a valid comparison since D* had DLBs on their previous version DVRs, I don't care who made the software.
> 
> The other two just happen to be two of the largest cable operators and the other satellite provider. That doesn't count the smaller cable operators, ie Insight, who are also using the motorola box with DLBs.
> 
> Obviously, they have reasons they do not want to do it. Those reasons apparantly have been communicated to Earl. However, IMO, fearing a small backlash, those reasons are not able to be communicated to the public at large. I dont' see any other reason that after 19 months with the R15, there is still silence and Earl isn't allowed to tell us what he knows.


Sorry if this has been covered before...but, is there any hardware reason that the HR-20 series cannot be configured for DLB? I'm guessing it's software, which could probably be upgraded (without messing up other features!).

As a HR-10-250 owner, and a big sports fan, I cannot imagine having a DVR without it. Let's make it happen...


----------



## jheda

No one has stated with any degree of certainty that something in the structure of the hr20 makes it dispositive to have DLB...quite the contrary, many have stated with knowledgeable posts why they believe it can be implimented with ease.

I found this post on another thread which is interesting....

_I had to laugh today when the CEO of Tivo was interviewed on CNBC. You can watch it here: http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=439735196&play=1# (5:17 long)
He claims that skipping ads is a real problem that they are looking to "cure". WHAT DID HE THINK THEY WOULD BE USED FOR?!?!?! He says the average user skips 50% of the ads and this is a serious problem and they are "taking steps to deal with it"._

Will TIVO be moving away from skips and DLB under advertiser pressure?

__________________

QUOTE=erosroadie;1020221]Sorry if this has been covered before...but, is there any hardware reason that the HR-20 series cannot be configured for DLB? I'm guessing it's software, which could probably be upgraded (without messing up other features!).

As a HR-10-250 owner, and a big sports fan, I cannot imagine having a DVR without it. Let's make it happen...[/QUOTE]


----------



## ShiningBengal

erosroadie said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before...but, is there any hardware reason that the HR-20 series cannot be configured for DLB? I'm guessing it's software, which could probably be upgraded (without messing up other features!).
> 
> As a HR-10-250 owner, and a big sports fan, I cannot imagine having a DVR without it. Let's make it happen...


I agree with you on most of what you posted. However, I think you are overly optimistic if you think that members of this forum, however valid their criticisms of the lack of DLB on the HR20, are in a position to "make it happen" if DirecTV has decided they are not going to implement DLB at this time.

The problem as I see it is that the majority of people who will be opting for DVR service with DirecTV have never had the experience of DLB since they haven't owned DVR's in the past. Remember, current and past DVR subscribers still represent a small minority of DirecTV customers.


----------



## anubys

I have no problem with the 30 second slip replacing the skip and as a way to bring back Dual Buffers...

heck, I prefer the slip to the skip...


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> I had to laugh today when the CEO of Tivo was interviewed on CNBC.
> 
> He claims that skipping ads is a real problem that they are looking to "cure". He says the average user skips 50% of the ads and this is a serious problem and they are "taking steps to deal with it".
> 
> Will TIVO be moving away from skips and DLB under advertiser pressure?


I know that we've been told by insiders that this isn't the heart of the DLB issue, but in my opinion, it 100% is the issue.

If you study the evolution from the HR10 to the HR20 strictly from an advertising exposure standpoint, we've gone from the ability to see zero commercials in a given day to seeing _all _the commercials in a given day. They're sped-up, but they're there and we're forced to see them.

BJ


----------



## jheda

Its hard to argue otherwise....except that I trust Earl implicitly...


boltjames said:


> I know that we've been told by insiders that this isn't the heart of the DLB issue, but in my opinion, it 100% is the issue.
> 
> If you study the evolution from the HR10 to the HR20 strictly from an advertising exposure standpoint, we've gone from the ability to see zero commercials in a given day to seeing _all _the commercials in a given day. They're sped-up, but they're there and we're forced to see them.
> 
> BJ


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> The problem as I see it is that the majority of people who will be opting for DVR service with DirecTV have never had the experience of DLB since they haven't owned DVR's in the past. Remember, current and past DVR subscribers still represent a small minority of DirecTV customers.


Bingo. Can't believe it, but you're starting to turn away from the dark side SB.

Not only do very few D* customers use DVR's, but very few of the DVR customers even knew that the DLB function was there to begin with. Myself included. I've owned T60's since 2002 or so and never knew that I could toggle between the two tuners and I'm a pretty tech savvy guy.

I know you have your beloved DBS survey, but trust me, if you surveyed the entire D* DVR population, I'd bet than less than 5% even knew that DLB was a feature of their DVR setup.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> Its hard to argue otherwise....except that I trust Earl implicitly...


Earl rocks, no question, but there are some things that even D* wouldn't make known to certain levels within their own company. Unless Earl has dialog with members of the D* board or officer group, it's possible that his senior engineer contacts are being told to execute something without knowlege of the underlying motive.

In my company, this is a normal course of business. I've got people executing without knowing the backstory too.

BJ


----------



## jaywdetroit

boltjames said:


> I know that we've been told by insiders that this isn't the heart of the DLB issue, but in my opinion, it 100% is the issue.
> 
> If you study the evolution from the HR10 to the HR20 strictly from an advertising exposure standpoint, we've gone from the ability to see zero commercials in a given day to seeing _all _the commercials in a given day. They're sped-up, but they're there and we're forced to see them.
> 
> BJ


One thing I think we can agree on without question, is that advertisers are scared stiff by DVRs.

So let's speculate...

Who has the closest financial relationship with advertisers, aside from the broadcast networks? My guess - the NFL. Seriously what other industry generates that much revenue from an advertising perspective?

After the networks, who is the coziest with the NFL? D*? right? ST?

Raise your hand if your viewing habits of NFL games has changed DRAMATICALLY since you've had a DVR.

So instead of a bunch of couch potatoes sitting around watching beer commercials, now we have a bunch of couch potatoes trying to catch every play of every game. Or at least pausing the game they are watching and forwarding through all the commercials.

Who owns the NFL? The most powerful people in this country and possibly the world. And most of them own other stuff too. I.E. The Fords. (Why do the lions suck? Who cares, they sell trucks.)

Now throw a DVR into the mix, and they can't program people to buy their products anymore, right? At least not nearly as easily.

Do you think D* is going to bat an eye at the NFL telling them to make DVRs more difficult to use from a commercial skipping perspective? The NFL says jump, and I'm sure D* is going to do so.

So is this REALLY speculative? Sure. But I don't think its that unlikely either. The NFL sells stuff better than any other franchise. Big Stuff.

If we are going to speculate that Advertisers are behind putting the kabosh on DVR functionality - then I think the NFL is the first place to look. And if the NFL set out to do that, D* is probably their first stop.

Thoughts? Flames?


----------



## anubys

the only flaw in your theory is the NFL game mix where you can watch six games at the same time...sure, if one game is showing commercials, you see that, but you will get NFL action 95% of the time (unless all 6 games are in commercials!)...

the NFL would not want that, yet D* offers it...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I am not sure the NFL is the best example....

With the exception of the SuperBowl... people's opinions on NFL commercials are just the same as any other... It is a break in the action, time to get another Beer, hit the washroom, get some snacks... in others words... a break.

The NFL does plenty to advertise "in-line"... 
And the networks, do their share with their pop-ups, and in the scorebar

Plus... with the NFL, it is not just DVR people that don't pay attention to commercials... you got the bars, "tailgaters", and get togethers with the buddies to watch the games.

---------------

Back to the point, the notion that DLB is not in the system to avoid advertisements, couldn't be any further from reality of the situation...

Bottom line... the design of the system was to record programs first, and be able to record two of them... as that is the primary defined feature of the DVR.

Being able to view live content, and manipulate it while watching it... is frankly... a secondary function (be a close secondary, but none the less... not hte primary) of the DVR.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Earl Bonovich said:


> Being able to view live content, and manipulate it while watching it... is frankly... a secondary function (be a close secondary, but none the less... not hte primary) of the DVR.


Okay fair enough. You are speaking of time-shifting, correct?

Am I mistaken to state that Time-shifting has always been a primary feature of DVRs in general. It has always been given equal standing. TiVos original commercials were more focused on your ability to pause live tv than to actually record a show and watch it later.

So time shifting was given second seat on THIS DVR. That still begs the question, WHY?


----------



## Steve Robertson

anubys said:


> the only flaw in your theory is the NFL game mix where you can watch six games at the same time...sure, if one game is showing commercials, you see that, but you will get NFL action 95% of the time (unless all 6 games are in commercials!)...
> 
> the NFL would not want that, yet D* offers it...


I can't tell you how many times I switch when there is a commericial and find out other games have abreak as well it is amazing how often it happens.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Steve Robertson said:


> I can't tell you how many times I switch when there is a commericial and find out other games have abreak as well it is amazing how often it happens.


Thats because they have added so many commercial breaks, its sickening.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> Okay fair enough. You are speaking of time-shifting, correct?
> 
> Am I mistaken to state that Time-shifting has always been a primary feature of DVRs in general. It has always been given equal standing. TiVos original commercials were more focused on your ability to pause live tv than to actually record a show and watch it later.
> 
> So time shifting was given second seat on THIS DVR. That still begs the question, WHY?


Actually... for the most part... yes... that is what I am saying..
And I would argue for the most part, Recording was the primary purpose of a TiVo in it's design...

They just implemented handling "LIVE" TV better, as basically when the first TiVo was built... it only had one tuner... so what ever it was recording HAD to be the live TV displayed (similar to when a VCR recorded).

So it inherintly had better handling of LIVE TV events, and in turn they marketted the pausing of a live event... which was actually a ~3s delayed recording playback (as TiVo was "recording" it in the background on a floating purpose).

So I honestly believe, there wasn't a change in "focus" on what the DVR was for... (as now you don't see TiVo advertising much on the pausing LIVE TV, as you used to... they focus on the other things)

The MARKETTING, of the original TiVo... focused on what impacted most people at the time... the annoyance of a phone call, someone at the door... diaper change... the pausing of what you where used to watching live....

But as time has gone on... the aspect of recording the shows and watching them at a completely different time (aka, breaking the chains of the TV Schedule), has become the primary function of ANY DVR... not just the DVR+, but any of them.

I think with the fact that the DVR+ being designed from the start as a dual stream recorder; Not so much an SA, modified to handle SAT, and then modified again to allow access to two sat streams...

Has had a direct effect on how it handles LIVE TV.

That is my opinion on it (and not based on anything from a DirecTV contact), but how I have seen the usage of DVR's evolve over the last 7 years.... both in forums life, and in people's usage of them, that I know...

Ask my wife...when any show is on? or what channel it is on? 
For the bulk of our favorite shows (seriously now), she has no idea on either of those... Not what channel it airs on, or what time... (she does know some of them, but... the vast majority she doesn't).

Even my son thinks "Avatar" is on all the time... since I have like 10 episodes qued on the DVRs... It is watching TV on "our" schedule, not anyone elses.... and that is how our DVR usage has evolved.

Sports and "Breaking News" is about the only exception I think to that...
But even then... I typically will start to record the Bears game, and start to watch about 1:15-1:30 (just about half-time)... As with that... I am never worried about missing KickOff (Church and Breakfast on Sunday mornings), and I can relax and watch the game, as I have some of my other stuff done.

But I still have to watch the game "semi-live", as with today's information age... the score and events are posted almost immediately here on the net, phones, and the radio... so it is hard to avoid.

But even say live events like the OSCARS... we start watching about 2+ hours in, so we can skip over commercials, categories we don't care about, and really boring winners..


----------



## ShiningBengal

jaywdetroit said:


> Thats because they have added so many commercial breaks, its sickening.


How else are they to pay for their growing roster of $10,000,000+/year players?

It seems to me with all this talk about being able to skip commercials, we forget that we have always had this ability. Even before VCR's, we had the mute button. We also have beer in the refrigerator, and as a consequence of this, the need for trips to the smallest room in the house.

The challenge to writers of TV ads, particularly in expensive time/programming slots, is to grab the attention of viewers to that they will want to watch their commercials. I don't mind watching a commercial if it is (1) for something I am potentially in the market for; (2) doesn't insult my intelligence; (3) has real content--not including stupid attempts at humor and (4) hasn't been aired so frequently that everyone in the universe has already seen it multiple times. These are the main criteria, though there may be others.

I don't need a DVR to tune objectionable commercials out. Why are advertisers so afraid of viewers FFing through commercials for products they will never buy?

People FF through ads in print media (pretty easy to do by turning the page). What's the difference if it is electronics media we are talking about?


----------



## jaywdetroit

Earl Bonovich said:


> But as time has gone on... the aspect of recording the shows and watching them at a completely different time (aka, breaking the chains of the TV Schedule), has become the primary function of ANY DVR... not just the DVR+, but any of them.


This is a good argument. I can see what you are saying here. However, I still think that the decision to not put any emphasis on time-shifting is a poor one.

I tend to agree that DVR culture has evolved into more of what you are saying, but I don't think that excuses the weak live buffer.

Now - to speculate a little - it sounds like you are hypothesizing that due to the plethora of additional features the HR20 is faced with handling, the technology to efficiently handle the live buffer with trick play and DLB has suffered.

Assuming that hypothesis is correct, I would put this to D*. Please give us a dumbed down HD DVR that has DLB. If it means no media play and no VOD, so be it.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Even my son thinks "Avatar" is on all the time... since I have like 10 episodes qued on the DVRs... It is watching TV on "our" schedule, not anyone elses.... and that is how our DVR usage has evolved.


Yeah - My 4 year old gives me a blank stare when I try to explain that a show is on Live TV. He doesn't understand what live tv is. When he wants to watch something, he does. And he doesn't understand if he has to wait.


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## jheda

The difference is the directtivo has spoiled me to start that bear game at 12pm and then, when a commercial hits, pause and go to the viking game and watch that and got back to the bears when a commerical hits there... so i have watched 2 games in the same time others have watched one...its that nirvana we miss..and if DLB isnt implimented we will get over it, but for sports, what a great feature....



Earl Bonovich said:


> But even then... I typically will start to record the Bears game, and start to watch about 1:15-1:30 (just about half-time)... As with that... I am never worried about missing KickOff (Church and Breakfast on Sunday mornings), and I can relax and watch the game, as I have some of my other stuff done.
> 
> But I still have to watch the game "semi-live", as with today's information age... the score and events are posted almost immediately here on the net, phones, and the radio... so it is hard to avoid.
> 
> But even say live events like the OSCARS... we start watching about 2+ hours in, so we can skip over commercials, categories we don't care about, and really boring winners..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> but I don't think that excuses the weak live


For the record (and I know you didn't intend it that way, but I have leared to make sure I am clear as possible)... I was not offering that up as an excuse.

The do need to make at least the SLB 100% reliable, and I know they are working on it, as they completly agree that SLB has to be a viable tool to the DVR...


----------



## jheda

IMHO, thats a little sad, as that just makes it a contemporary VCR......



> =But as time has gone on... the aspect of recording the shows and watchning them at a completely different time (aka, breaking the chains of the TV Schedule), has become the primary function of ANY DVR... not just the DVR+, but any of them.


----------



## beer_geek

Earl Bonovich said:


> The do need to make at least the SLB 100% reliable, and I know they are working on it, as they completly agree that SLB has to be a viable tool to the DVR...


DLB won't be on the radar until this is the case.


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## jheda

if they can get the live buffer tohold the pause point while you watch a recording or recorded show, they would have come a long way....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

It's been sugessted that this belongs in the sticky thread. I agree, so I moved it here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MOVED FROM MY POST IN "No Live Buffer - Lack of DLB's Strikes Again!!!"

I've done a bunch of surfing over the last couple of months and every major TV service provider I can find uses a receiver with DLB. Either supplied by the carrier or one that you choose.

*With the exception of D* that is.*
Here are some examples

Charter Communications supplies a Motorola(Moxie BMC-90xx) and a Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) both with DLB.

Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner all use Motorolas(DCT-6412 & Moxie) and the Scientific Atlantic(Explorer 8000HD) again both with DLB.(I think these service providers are related but haven't bothered to find out)

MetroCast supplies the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.

CableVision/Optimum uses the Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) with DLB.

CableOne uses the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.

FiOS now uses the Motorola QIP6416 with DLB. Here is the link - http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/...d=6257_6212_23

With AT&T, as previously stated in this thread, you can use other dvr's with DLB.

As near as I can tell, D* is the _only provider _without any option for DLB in their current HD offerings.

I feel that D* should have considered (not that they haven't... but no one's saying) the out cry for *DLB* important enough to address, if even only as an acknowledgement that many of us care.

*The saddest part is that SLB hasn't even worked up to now *(haven't tested it in the new release yet so don't yell at me).

Now for the real question..........
*Can anyone tell me of a Service Provider that has no option for DLB?*

Mike

ps. I posted alot about this DLB/SLB but it's been a while (not as much as some but...). Now I have the time, so I plan to start my DLB/SLB ranting once more.


----------



## raott

jheda said:


> IMHO, thats a little sad, as that just makes it a contemporary VCR......


Yep, and IMO the notion that there has been some drastic change and that people primarily watch recorded programming is just not accurate, at least in my house.

I would venture that in our house, live TV is at about 75% while recorded is about 25%, the DVR supplements the live TV watching. I get home at 5, I turn the news on - because that is when it is convenient. Something I like comes on at 8, I don't purposefully not watch it so that I can record it and watch it later, I go ahead and watch it if it fits my schedule.

No offense to anyone, but I think that some of you guys that have four and five DVRs in your home just aren't in tune with the way the average home uses DVRs. To me, it is both a DVR AND a receiver and the lack of DLBs hinders the "live" experience while adding nothing to the "recorded" experience.


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## jaywdetroit

The only live tv i watch now days is baseball, and other sports. I will watch 24, heroes, etc, the night they are on. But usually i start watching 15 minutes into the show to skip the commercials. 

Otherwise, everything else is pre-recorded.


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## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> No offense to anyone, but I think that some of you guys that have four and five DVRs in your home just aren't in tune with the way the average home uses DVRs. To me, it is both a DVR AND a receiver and the lack of DLBs hinders the "live" experience while adding nothing to the "recorded" experience.


And no offense intended here either... but I think then, you haven't fully grasped some of the benefits of a DVR...

The notion that I no longer have to even CONSIDER what is on TV that, in my daily routine... is my primary reason for having a DVR.

If Tae Kwon Do is going long, I don't worry that I have to get out there because a certain show is on.... If we are just chatting away with the neighboors... don't have to end it short, because another show is about to start.

TV Time schedule is so far out of our minds now... TV is now once again, an entertainment for us... and something we can enjoy together... no worrying about tapes.... both of us being home from work, or busy with something else...

And it isn't a case of "purposly not watching it at 8pm"... we are at the point where we dont' even know that it was on at 8... we just know that when we finally get a chance to sit down and watch that show... it has already aired and it is there on the hard drive... be it later that night, later that week, or even later that month...

As for "not being in tune".... I don't think anyone knows what the overall "tune" is... .just because I use it like this, and all the people that I know pretty much do.... and you use it the way you do, and probably the people that you know do...

Doesn't mean that is the "total tune" for the average home user.


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## bonscott87

raott said:


> No offense to anyone, but I think that some of you guys that have four and five DVRs in your home just aren't in tune with the way the average home uses DVRs. To me, it is both a DVR AND a receiver and the lack of DLBs hinders the "live" experience while adding nothing to the "recorded" experience.


I gave up watching live TV 6 months after I got my first stand alone Tivo back in 2000. Seriously, I just don't watch Live TV (*exceptions below). My wife and I might go 3 days in a row without even turning the TV on.

Now to my exceptions. I've had HD for 4 years now but could only record it the past 10 months. So we actually got into the habit of watching live TV again for HD. We have almost broken that habit again.

Football on Sunday's I watch live.
Hockey may be watched live, but usually we'll start 40 minutes behind live to eliminate the commercials.
Heroes...the only series *ever* that has made me watch live if possible.

Other then that I barely know what day any of my shows are on.

Not to say watching live TV is bad or wrong, but the DVR releases me from that.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> And no offense intended here either... but I think then, you haven't fully grasped some of the benefits of a DVR...
> 
> ......
> 
> As for "not being in tune".... I don't think anyone knows what the overall "tune" is... .just because I use it like this, and all the people that I know pretty much do.... and you use it the way you do, and probably the people that you know do...
> 
> Doesn't mean that is the "total tune" for the average home user.


Earl you and a number of folks on here are true enthusiasts of the DVR - to the point where live TV doesn't cross your mind. I think that is great, because it gives guys like me, who are interested in the area but not to the level you are, a good resource - ie what kind of wiring to think about in my new house. However, I really don't think that "most" people are that way, I think the average user watches a mix of live and recorded tv.

But my main issue is, IMO there was absolutely no reason to hinder the "live" experience by not adding DLBs, I simply do not understand that rationale - the lack of DLBs has not added anything to the "recorded" experience and in the process has taken away from the "live" experience.

And I still do not understand, if "recorded" is the primary focus of the DVR, then why the 50/100 limits - which is, and IMO no other way to characterize it, but a step backward?


----------



## raott

bonscott87 said:


> I gave up watching live TV 6 months after I got my first stand alone Tivo back in 2000. Seriously, I just don't watch Live TV (*exceptions below). My wife and I might go 3 days in a row without even turning the TV on.


but I'll go back to the argument that you are not the "average" user. You, as is Earl, are an enthusiast of DVRs. I firmly believe, and I may be way off base, that the "average" home with a DVR watches much more live TV than recorded.

In the grand scheme of things its not that important, I just don't think DLBs should have been sacrificed for a better recorded experience - if indeed that is the reason why - when it really hasn't offered a better recorded experience and has definately hindered the live experience.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> And I still do not understand, if "recorded" is the primary focus of the DVR, then why the 50/100 limits - which is, and IMO no other way to characterize it, but a step backward?


That is an entirely different topic. (the 50 limit is SL's, where the 100 todo is only on the R15, the HR20's is somewhere in 400-500 range)...

But even as a DVR enthusiast... and that is 100% accurate (not specific to any software version, just the theory and usage of a DVR)
I am an enthusiast, as the DVR has given me back my nights...

Because of that glorious invention... I get to have my cake, and eat it too.
I can watch EVERY program that I want to... without having to give up all the other things I want to do. (TKD with my Son, Baseball and Scouts... going out for a dinner in the middle of the week, vegging on a Sunday and watching a "marathon" of my favorite show... that isn't being aired by anyone).

.... To a degree... I will argue that DLB has hindered the "recorded" experience of the DVR.... DLB has given you the tool watching more LIVE TV, on their schedule... not yours... trying to watch two lives shows (or games) at the same time. (same as PIP, and having two TV's in the room).

Neither way is wrong....


----------



## jaywdetroit

Hey QUE:

Here is the letter you have been asking for... Edits are welcome...

________________________________

Attention: President, D*

I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment. 

I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver. 

Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.

Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product. 

I’m writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products. 

I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV’s plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given. 

Thank you for your time,


----------



## puffnstuff

Love it JayW !!!! Now we have something to start with maybe now we can at least hopefully get a response .


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## jheda

I think we all agree that we watch most movies series, etc., at will, as we did with a vcr. 

Its the sports that is most driven to be watched "from behind", paused etc., as Earl does an hour into a game. These are events that must be watched live or close to live or they lose meaning. Its the sports we spend  $$$$ for EI, center ice, NFL ticket, a huge revenue source for many. 

And its those events that the feature this sticky longs for is most missed.


----------



## DblD_Indy

jaywdetroit said:


> Hey QUE:
> 
> Here is the letter you have been asking for... Edits are welcome...
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> Attention: President, D*
> 
> I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.
> 
> I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.
> 
> Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.
> 
> Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.
> 
> I'm writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technical possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.
> 
> I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV's plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.
> 
> Thank you for your time,


Good work Jay!

Now three good things come from Detroit! Jay, his letter and the Tigers!

Thanks!

Can we get a post of all possible snail mail address for D*TV.


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## dpd0961

I couldn't agree with raott more...I watch plenty of live tv, and used DLB all the time.

To me, the most frustrating part of this entire topic is the continued reluctance of DirecTV to let us know if they EVER intend to implement this. It's very difficult for me to believe that they don't know the plan for this. No offense but, the answer that it's not "off the table or on the table" doesn't really tell us anything. If they are not planning on doing it for whatever reason they have, it would be nice to hear that, and a lot of us that are hoping/waiting for it could forget about it. If they ARE looking at it, and hoping to get to it in whatever timeframe, that would be nice to hear too.


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## jheda

Wow, a day of ideas being exchanged, learning from each other, without a fiber of sarcasm or nasty remarks........... I may cry tears of joy.
I even agree with a red sox post (probably cause we are gaining on them once again.)!



dpd0961 said:


> I couldn't agree with raott more...I watch plenty of live tv, and used DLB all the time.
> 
> To me, the most frustrating part of this entire topic is the continued reluctance of DirecTV to let us know if they EVER intend to implement this. It's very difficult for me to believe that they don't know the plan for this. No offense but, the answer that it's not "off the table or on the table" doesn't really tell us anything. If they are not planning on doing it for whatever reason they have, it would be nice to hear that, and a lot of us that are hoping/waiting for it could forget about it. If they ARE looking at it, and hoping to get to it in whatever timeframe, that would be nice to hear too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Microbeta,

Don't forget that Dishnetwork, who uses many of the same components in the Vip622 and uses MPEG4 encoding, has PIP, DLB, and two TV DVR in one box. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## amahdi

dpd0961 said:


> I couldn't agree with raott more...I watch plenty of live tv, and used DLB all the time.
> 
> To me, the most frustrating part of this entire topic is the continued reluctance of DirecTV to let us know if they EVER intend to implement this. It's very difficult for me to believe that they don't know the plan for this. No offense but, the answer that it's not "off the table or on the table" doesn't really tell us anything. If they are not planning on doing it for whatever reason they have, it would be nice to hear that, and a lot of us that are hoping/waiting for it could forget about it. If they ARE looking at it, and hoping to get to it in whatever timeframe, that would be nice to hear too.


Just came back from Best Buy today and had a long discussion with one of their guys working in the tv area. BestBuy has Directv for all its tvs so I asked him a few questions about the Directv boxes, etc. We came to the topic of dual buffers for the R20 and he said that in December, Directv will be rolling out a new receiver (or maybe an update of the R20) which will have Dual Buffers and some other features (ethernet connection, connection to PC, etc).

Not sure how solid this inofrnmation is but atleast there is hope!

PS - Hope the Sox win the AL East!


----------



## jheda

OK, resources, fact or fiction?

the hr20, not the issue of the sox (we know thats fiction)



amahdi said:


> Just came back from Best Buy today and had a long discussion with one of their guys working in the tv area. BestBuy has Directv for all its tvs so I asked him a few questions about the Directv boxes, etc. We came to the topic of dual buffers for the R20 and he said that in December, Directv will be rolling out a new receiver (or maybe an update of the R20) which will have Dual Buffers and some other features (ethernet connection, connection to PC, etc).
> 
> Not sure how solid this inofrnmation is but atleast there is hope!
> 
> PS - Hope the Sox win the AL East!


----------



## argosy20

Jay W - the letter looks good, but why limit it to the HR20 and HD DVRs? Aren't there plenty of SD Tivo users that are going to be forced over to R15s if their TIVO dies or for other reasons?


----------



## jaywdetroit

argosy20 said:


> Jay W - the letter looks good, but why limit it to the HR20 and HD DVRs? Aren't there plenty of SD Tivo users that are going to be forced over to R15s if their TIVO dies or for other reasons?


Some reasons...

1. Because this is the DLB thread in the HR20 forum.
2. Because i wrote it in 5-10 minutes at work.
3. Because i don't have an r15

seriously though...

I am not protecting my copyright on this. You guys can use it as you please. I know Q has been asking for one lately, so there it is. If anyone want to add to it or modify it before they send it, knock yourself out!!!


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## bonscott87

raott said:


> but I'll go back to the argument that you are not the "average" user. You, as is Earl, are an enthusiast of DVRs. I firmly believe, and I may be way off base, that the "average" home with a DVR watches much more live TV than recorded.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things its not that important, I just don't think DLBs should have been sacrificed for a better recorded experience - if indeed that is the reason why - when it really hasn't offered a better recorded experience and has definately hindered the live experience.


True. But I *wasn't* a DVR enthusiast 7 years ago when I got my first DVR. Heck, I barely recorded anything on my VCR at that point. But I quickly learned that I have better things to do with my time then watch live TV on the networks schedule. Tivo really released me and I will always thank Tivo for that. But that's just my personal experience.

Anyway, has nothing to do with DLBs. I've pretty much stayed out of posting in this thread because I just don't care either way. I hope it gets added for those that want it, but I personally could care less about it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mrs. Tibber and I have been avoiding live TV longer than there have been DVRs. We have always heavily used our VCRs to allow us to watch when we want and avoid the commercials. Moving to a DVR mindset was rather trivial. But we still have live TV on often throughout the day. The grandsons like to watch disney. Doesn't matter what's on, they like to watch and so watching live is easier than even group play is. We also like to have the news on in the background during many of the daily chores. DVRs are the only way to do that right--when something goes up that catches our interest, we get to back up 2 minutes and see what we would have missed. 

But to me, sports are meant to be watched live. And DLBs are the best way to watch live sports. A DVR should improve live viewing as well as time-shifted viewing. DLBs, to me, is the natural thing to do for improving live viewing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boltjames

raott said:


> Earl you and a number of folks on here are true enthusiasts of the DVR - to the point where live TV doesn't cross your mind. I think that is great, because it gives guys like me, who are interested in the area but not to the level you are, a good resource - ie what kind of wiring to think about in my new house. However, I really don't think that "most" people are that way, I think the average user watches a mix of live and recorded tv.


There are two very primary points that aren't really being discussed:

1. The vast majority of DVR users that had DLB functionality never knew it existed and/or never utilized it. No, not we gearheads on DBS. The other 97% of the DVR users that aren't smart enough to find their way here.

2. DirecTV knows what its doing, and they deliberately left off a very old and established feature for a reason. As many point out, they know of this feature, it's been on their DVR's for almost a decade, yet they still left if off. Why? See #1.

BJ


----------



## jheda

They are not discussed as your numbers are nothing more than speculation, speculation, speculation.


boltjames said:


> There are two very primary points that aren't really being discussed:
> 
> 1. The vast majority of DVR users that had DLB functionality never knew it existed and/or never utilized it. No, not we gearheads on DBS. The other 97% of the DVR users that aren't smart enough to find their way here.
> 
> BJ


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> They are not discussed as your numbers are nothing more than speculation, speculation, speculation.


Same for your beloved "survey" of a tiny population of power users. Forget the numbers for a minute, and look at the facts.

Fact: D* endorsed DLB for years in its DVR's.

Fact: D* is in a competitive business and is looking for any opportunity to please a customer.

Fact: D* took years to develop their own DVR, risking relationships and their future.

Fact: D* created a quality product, filled with new features and speed not found in a DVR before.

Fact: D* has updated the product several times, addressing key, priority issues.

Fact: D* didn't include the DLB feature.

Fact: You know the reason why, but you're afraid to admit it.

Fact: If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They don't, so it's not.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Fact: D* didn't include the DLB feature.
> 
> Fact: You know the reason why, but you're afraid to admit it.


I'm sorry, but none of us here know the reason why DLB is not included, so that's not a fact.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I'm sorry, but none of us here know the reason why DLB is not included, so that's not a fact.


Sometimes, the obvious lack of an explanation is, in fact, the explanation.

If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They didn't want it that badly, so it's not on the product. The HR20 is everything we want, and then some. They've dug deep down the feature list, even inventing some we weren't expecting. Stands to reason that in light of this, the mere fact that DLB is not on the product means that its because it wasn't being used and wasn't going to be missed.

Simple theory, but the most plausible.

BJ


----------



## jaywdetroit

boltjames said:


> Sometimes, the obvious lack of an explanation is, in fact, the explanation.
> 
> If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They didn't want it that badly, so it's not on the product. The HR20 is everything we want, and then some. They've dug deep down the feature list, even inventing some we weren't expecting. Stands to reason that in light of this, the mere fact that DLB is not on the product means that its because it wasn't being used and wasn't going to be missed.
> 
> Simple theory, but the most plausible.
> 
> BJ


Hey BJ-

I agree that your advertisers theory is quite plausible. But to start spouting off facts as to why we don't have DLB is kinda irresponsible.

I think its just as possible that the engineers want to include DLB, but can't because the machine can't handle it for some reason. (By machine - i mean any combination of hardware/software.)

I think thats just as possible as any other reason. We won't know unless D* comes out and tells us. All we can do is speculate. We certainly cannot spout off facts about why DLB is not on this box.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Sometimes, the obvious lack of an explanation is, in fact, the explanation.
> 
> If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They didn't want it that badly, so it's not on the product. The HR20 is everything we want, and then some. They've dug deep down the feature list, even inventing some we weren't expecting. Stands to reason that in light of this, the mere fact that DLB is not on the product means that its because it wasn't being used and wasn't going to be missed.
> 
> Simple theory, but the most plausible.
> 
> BJ


Then please call it your theory from now on, and not fact. It's quite misleading to do otherwise, and on top of that, repeatedly calling a theory "fact" may just antagonize the visitors to this thread who want DLB.


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Same for your beloved "survey" of a tiny population of power users. Forget the numbers for a minute, and look at the facts.
> 
> Fact: D* endorsed DLB for years in its DVR's.
> 
> Fact: D* is in a competitive business and is looking for any opportunity to please a customer.
> 
> Fact: D* took years to develop their own DVR, risking relationships and their future.
> 
> Fact: D* created a quality product, filled with new features and speed not found in a DVR before.
> 
> Fact: D* has updated the product several times, addressing key, priority issues.
> 
> Fact: D* didn't include the DLB feature.
> 
> Fact: You know the reason why, but you're afraid to admit it.
> 
> Fact: If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They don't, so it's not.
> 
> BJ


You must have a huge butt because you just keep pulling things out of it. You have no "facts" as to why DLB hasn't been included. All you have is a "guess". As Earl stated before, they're still working the kinks out of the single buffer.

In my opinion,(a phrase you should learn to use) THAT'S the reason. They want to perfect their implementation of the single buffer before tackling DLB.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> Same for your beloved "survey" of a tiny population of power users. Forget the numbers for a minute, and look at the facts.
> 
> Fact: D* endorsed DLB for years in its DVR's.
> I don't ever recall DLB being advertised. If it was, then there goes your other arguments that very few outside of DBStalk even know about it.
> 
> Fact: D* is in a competitive business and is looking for any opportunity to please a customer.
> OK... then they should add DLB
> 
> Fact: D* took years to develop their own DVR, risking relationships and their future.
> 
> Fact: D* created a quality product, filled with new features and speed not found in a DVR before.
> I think you mean 'speed not found in HR10 before. I know my SD DTivos were just as fast, or faster, especially on channel changes.
> 
> Fact: D* has updated the product several times, addressing key, priority issues. Very true and very appreciated. And is the reason why so many of us still have hope for DLB
> 
> Fact: D* didn't include the DLB feature.
> They also didn't include OTA, VOD, Channels I get filter, MRV, Mediaplay, CID... Some have been added some not yet.
> 
> Fact: You know the reason why, but you're afraid to admit it.
> I assume you directed this at D*, because no one else knows the real reason.
> 
> Fact: If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They don't, so it's not.
> So, if its not on there its purely because not enough people want it? Where does D* get their numbers for how many people want a feature? This place is the only one where I have heard of most features, and DLB ranks pretty high. It is good to know you feel our letter campaign will get results then. What better way to get more numbers to D*.
> 
> BJ


As for how many people actually know of DLB, whether they are here or not. I think it is alot more then you imagine. I realize you didn't know you had it because it wasn't easy to find on your receiver. On both of my SD Dtivos I discovered it purely on accident. But then again, they made enough ways for it. Press Up, or down, or live or Last. All it took was to accidently hit one of those, and any timeshift button and you saw you had existing buffer. I first found it within days of having my DVR80.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Okay... my turn



boltjames said:


> Fact: D* endorsed DLB for years in its DVR's.
> As christo76 pointed out... ummm... when did they endorse or advertise DLB? Heck even TiVo doesn't advertise that feature... And again that was on a DIFFERENT software platform... Ultimate TV had some features that people loved and didn't make it to the TiVo platform, nor to the DVR+ platform
> 
> Fact: D* is in a competitive business and is looking for any opportunity to please a customer.
> Yes, but they have to evaluate "every" aspect of that opportunity, and the longer term effect. Everything isn't black and white
> 
> Fact: D* took years to develop their own DVR, risking relationships and their future.
> Any "project" like this has a risk... but with risk comes reward. There would have never been a perfect DVR that wouldn't have resulted in some people not being happen... the quesiton, what happens in the long run.
> 
> 
> Fact: D* created a quality product, filled with new features and speed not found in a DVR before.
> There are some DVR's and even TiVo's at time where just as fast, but "fast" is a relative term, and dependent on the person using it and other factors that are just not consistant amongst the user base. As for the features... yes, there are some very nice new features and even more planned
> 
> Fact: D* has updated the product several times, addressing key, priority issues.
> Yep
> 
> Fact: D* didn't include the DLB feature.
> Yep
> 
> Fact: You know the reason why, but you're afraid to admit it.
> Really? Who is that you directed at.... Me? If so, it has nothing to do with being "afraid"
> 
> Fact: If everyone wanted the feature so badly, it would be on the product right now. They don't, so it's not.
> Everyone wants the box to be free too... with free service. They also want it to have two more tuners... It doesn't take "everyone" to want something to get it done. It again depends on the evaluation of a LOT of factors, on what gets done and what doesn't
> 
> BJ


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> It's been sugessted that this belongs in the sticky thread. I agree, so I moved it here.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MOVED FROM MY POST IN "No Live Buffer - Lack of DLB's Strikes Again!!!"
> 
> I've done a bunch of surfing over the last couple of months and every major TV service provider I can find uses a receiver with DLB. Either supplied by the carrier or one that you choose.
> 
> *With the exception of D* that is.*
> Here are some examples
> 
> Charter Communications supplies a Motorola(Moxie BMC-90xx) and a Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) both with DLB.
> 
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner all use Motorolas(DCT-6412 & Moxie) and the Scientific Atlantic(Explorer 8000HD) again both with DLB.(I think these service providers are related but haven't bothered to find out)
> 
> MetroCast supplies the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
> 
> CableVision/Optimum uses the Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) with DLB.
> 
> CableOne uses the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
> 
> FiOS now uses the Motorola QIP6416 with DLB. Here is the link - http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/...d=6257_6212_23
> 
> With AT&T, as previously stated in this thread, you can use other dvr's with DLB.
> 
> As near as I can tell, D* is the _only provider _without any option for DLB in their current HD offerings.
> 
> I feel that D* should have considered (not that they haven't... but on one's saying) the out cry for *DLB* important enough to address, if even only as an acknowledgement that many of us care.
> 
> *The saddest part is that SLB hasn't even worked up to now *(haven't tested it in the new release yet so don't yell at me).
> 
> Now for the real question..........
> *Can anyone tell me of a Service Provider that has no option for DLB?*
> 
> Mike
> 
> ps. I posted alot about this DLB/SLB but it's been a while (not as much as some but...). Now I have the time, so I plan to start my DLB/SLB ranting once more.


Nice! Now we need to fit that into the letter somehow.

and Thanks jaywdetroit!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Here is the body of a letter. I don't know how to post the Word doc, so the formating will be a little off. 
______________________________________________________________
123 Main St
My Town, USA 12345-6789


Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc. 
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

Dear Sir, 

I am writing in regard to DirecTV’s High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.

As I’m sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a “work around” with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV’s priority list. 

Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV. 

The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn’t it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.

While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1.	Dish Network – ViP622
2.	Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD). 
3.	Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4.	MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
5.	CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6.	CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
7.	FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)
8.	AT&T – allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.

Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns. 

Sincerely,


Me
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please provide any input you can. It's based on my own feelings about DLB so anyone can make it their own.

As futile as it may seem, I'll keep goin' .........:bang :beatdeadhorse: 

Mike

Que
sorry couldn't wait.


----------



## jheda

nice work by all............


MicroBeta said:


> Here is the body of a letter. I don't know how to post the Word doc, so the formating will be a little off.
> ______________________________________________________________
> 123 Main St
> My Town, USA 12345-6789
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.
> 
> The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.
> 
> While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.
> 
> 1.	Dish Network - ViP622
> 2.	Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> 3.	Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> 4.	MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> 5.	CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> 6.	CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> 7.	FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 8.	AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.
> 
> Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Me
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Please provide any input you can. It's based on my own feelings about DLB so anyone can make it their own.
> 
> As futile as it may seem, I'll keep goin' .........:bang :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Mike
> 
> Que
> sorry couldn't wait.


----------



## cforrest

#5 doesn't have DLB, since Cablevision uses the SA8300. It only buffers one tuner, yet it will record two streams.


----------



## sunking

Just curious, but who does the programming for this? It really reeks of an offshore job/mess.

Just last week I had to deal with an offshore job for an application that was leaking database connections and crashing about every other day because of it. I looked at their code, found the problem area in about 15 minutes, emailed the local project manager sample code for the fixes. We're talking about 15 lines of code total in 4 files. I hear today from the guy that the offshore company gave him a fix target date of Aug 30th. All I could do was laugh and once again reiterate my opinion of off shore jobs. They supposedly have a half dozen dedicated coders for support even. And this is for a critical app that controls the entire standard work process for a $5B/year aerospace company. What a joke.

Maybe they are doing split time work between our app and the HR20. 

D* can spend almost a billion bucks launching 2 new sats, you would think they could make some sort of an effort on their flagship product.


----------



## DblD_Indy

jaywdetroit said:


> I am not protecting my copyright on this.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: Good one! :lol:
> 
> Thanks again for getting the ball rolling on this!
Click to expand...


----------



## ShiningBengal

sunking said:


> Just curious, but who does the programming for this? It really reeks of an offshore job/mess.
> 
> Just last week I had to deal with an offshore job for an application that was leaking database connections and crashing about every other day because of it. I looked at their code, found the problem area in about 15 minutes, emailed the local project manager sample code for the fixes. We're talking about 15 lines of code total in 4 files. I hear today from the guy that the offshore company gave him a fix target date of Aug 30th. All I could do was laugh and once again reiterate my opinion of off shore jobs. They supposedly have a half dozen dedicated coders for support even. And this is for a critical app that controls the entire standard work process for a $5B/year aerospace company. What a joke.
> 
> Maybe they are doing split time work between our app and the HR20.
> 
> D* can spend almost a billion bucks launching 2 new sats, you would think they could make some sort of an effort on their flagship product.


Just as an aside, I work in a highly specialized, very high tech communications technology company. It is nearly impossible to hire US employees in this field. Our educational system isn't producting 1/10th of the demand.

Virtually all of our new hires come from India. They come here to work here--legally--because we cannot find qualified programmers without going offshore, particularly to India.

Don't knock them. They are good--damned good. Better than home grown. And it isn't just true of our industry. We aren't producing the high quality programmers American industry needs.


----------



## sunking

ShiningBengal said:


> Just as an aside, I work in a highly specialized, very high tech communications technology company. It is nearly impossible to hire US employees in this field. Our educational system isn't producting 1/10th of the demand.
> 
> Virtually all of our new hires come from India. They come here to work here--legally--because we cannot find qualified programmers without going offshore, particularly to India.
> 
> Don't knock them. They are good--damned good. Better than home grown. And it isn't just true of our industry. We aren't producing the high quality programmers American industry needs.


First off, they aren't all good. You just make sure you hire the good ones. Percentage wise they are no better or worse than American graduates. They just happen to have a population 5 times that of the US and currently value an engineering/science education more than a marketing/communications degree like we seem to. Ironically our educational system is having no problem at all turning out high numbers of foreign graduates. I'm not knocking the individual programmer per say. What you describe is not doing an off shore project, it's hiring foreign workers. Big difference.

Really my only question is whether the HR20 is an inhouse project or not. My guess is its not, and despite what the bean counters like to sell you, in my experience there are a lot of challenges to managing something of this size off shore. And unfortunately I have seen some pretty shoddy work come from overseas. It may meet the specs, but if you are expecting a masterpiece to come back forget about it. IE: Unless you told them that you want the ability to have or later add DLB you are gonna get back a system that probably needs a massive rewrite to add it later.

Anyway, back to topic!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The HR20 is in house, in El Segundo CA


----------



## sunking

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is in house, in El Segundo CA


Thanks. Was just wondering.


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> Here is the body of a letter. I don't know how to post the Word doc, so the formating will be a little off.
> ______________________________________________________________
> 123 Main St
> My Town, USA 12345-6789
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.
> 
> The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.
> 
> While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.
> 
> 1.	Dish Network - ViP622
> 2.	Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> 3.	Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> 4.	MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> 5.	CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> 6.	CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> 7.	FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 8.	AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.
> 
> Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Me
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Please provide any input you can. It's based on my own feelings about DLB so anyone can make it their own.
> 
> As futile as it may seem, I'll keep goin' .........:bang :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Mike
> 
> Que
> sorry couldn't wait.


Had to go to work. 

Nice work!

Now we just need to get one out of these two.....



Que said:


> [edit] Update 1st post.


----------



## Chuck584

I was an early adopter of TiVo. When I decided to slip the chains of Comcast, I went with DirecTV only because they had TiVo.

When I broke down and bought an HDTV, I made the decision to move to Dish for the DLB in the VIP622. I would now be a Dish subscriber if their new customer people could have wrapped their minds around the concept that I wanted TWO VIP622s, one for each of my HDTVs. Their installer showed up with ONE, as per the order, to be hooked to two TVs.

So...

I got one HR20-100 and kept both my DirecTV TiVos.

I kept the TiVos for three reasons:

1) I have installed larger hard disks which give me hundreds of hours of recording
2) DLB
3) I own them

I just ordered a terrabyte drive for the "leased" HR20-100, because it simply won't hold the HD programming I want it to hold. The drive will go inside the box as I don't want the bother of eSATA nor to consume, needlessly, the extra power of the eSATA wall wart.

If they ever get a DLB in the HR20-100, I will get another. It's a crying shame I have to use one of the TiVo platforms for weekend sports on an HDTV.

I know, I could record one game while watching the SLB and piddle around that way.

That is not what I've grown used to with TiVo.

One last comment. The lack of DLB bothered me enough that I seriously thought about going back to Comcast using TiVo series 3. If TiVo still had the "lifetime" subscription option, I'd be a former DirecTV customer right now. If I could install a larger drive in the Dish 622, I'd be a former customer of DirecTV.

If Verizon or Comcast ever offers DLB in a box where I can store 100+ hours of HD before (if ever) the HR20 gets it...


----------



## ShiningBengal

sunking said:


> First off, they aren't all good. You just make sure you hire the good ones. Percentage wise they are no better or worse than American graduates. They just happen to have a population 5 times that of the US and currently value an engineering/science education more than a marketing/communications degree like we seem to. Ironically our educational system is having no problem at all turning out high numbers of foreign graduates. I'm not knocking the individual programmer per say. What you describe is not doing an off shore project, it's hiring foreign workers. Big difference.
> 
> Really my only question is whether the HR20 is an inhouse project or not. My guess is its not, and despite what the bean counters like to sell you, in my experience there are a lot of challenges to managing something of this size off shore. And unfortunately I have seen some pretty shoddy work come from overseas. It may meet the specs, but if you are expecting a masterpiece to come back forget about it. IE: Unless you told them that you want the ability to have or later add DLB you are gonna get back a system that probably needs a massive rewrite to add it later.
> 
> Anyway, back to topic!


I didn't say we have bad American programmers. I said we weren't producing anywhere near the numbers we need. My company isn't just "hiring foreign workers." It is actively soliciting talent from abroad, just as it does from American universities. The hires we are making are not home grown. They are largely educated in India. And we have to compete with other companies, both American and otherwise, to get them. We are not hiring them "on the cheap."

You get what you pay for. Our clients are fortune 500 companies, and they won't stand for shoddy work, done cheaply.

If you hire bad programmers, Indian or otherwise, you won't get good results. Problem is, there are fewer and fewer Americans who are qualified to do the work...at ANY price.

What evidence do you have that DirecTV is outsourcing abroad?


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> I was an early adopter of TiVo. When I decided to slip the chains of Comcast, I went with DirecTV only because they had TiVo.
> 
> When I broke down and bought an HDTV, I made the decision to move to Dish for the DLB in the VIP622. I would now be a Dish subscriber if their new customer people could have wrapped their minds around the concept that I wanted TWO VIP622s, one for each of my HDTVs. Their installer showed up with ONE, as per the order, to be hooked to two TVs.
> 
> So...
> 
> I got one HR20-100 and kept both my DirecTV TiVos.
> 
> I kept the TiVos for three reasons:
> 
> 1) I have installed larger hard disks which give me hundreds of hours of recording
> 2) DLB
> 3) I own them
> 
> I just ordered a terrabyte drive for the "leased" HR20-100, because it simply won't hold the HD programming I want it to hold. The drive will go inside the box as I don't want the bother of eSATA nor to consume, needlessly, the extra power of the eSATA wall wart.
> 
> If they ever get a DLB in the HR20-100, I will get another. It's a crying shame I have to use one of the TiVo platforms for weekend sports on an HDTV.
> 
> I know, I could record one game while watching the SLB and piddle around that way.
> 
> That is not what I've grown used to with TiVo.
> 
> One last comment. The lack of DLB bothered me enough that I seriously thought about going back to Comcast using TiVo series 3. If TiVo still had the "lifetime" subscription option, I'd be a former DirecTV customer right now. If I could install a larger drive in the Dish 622, I'd be a former customer of DirecTV.
> 
> If Verizon or Comcast ever offers DLB in a box where I can store 100+ hours of HD before (if ever) the HR20 gets it...


Why not just buy(lease) another HR20 and run them parallel?


----------



## cygnusloop

Just something that has been percolating in the back of my mind....

I wonder if the implementation of SWM has anything to do with D*'s ability to easily implement DLB. 

Earl's enigmatic responses regarding the"real" reason for D*'s continued silence on the matter have me thinking that it's something pretty basic about the design of their particular dual tuner DVR. It's the only thing that I can think of that is "different" about the HR20 when compared to other dual tuner DVR's.

Just a thought... Can any of you guys or gals that really understand the SWM implementation tell my why I might be wrong?


----------



## Drew2k

I can't see a reason that the SWM would be behind the lack of DLB. Someone else may have to expand on this, but in essence, the SWM is a central distribution unit that manages signals from the receivers to the dish, sending and receiving tones to get data from the desired responder.

From what I understand, the FTM ports on the back of the receivers simply tell the SWM what it needs, and the SWM does the work.

Since receivers hooked up to SWM can record from two tuners simultaneously, I can't think of anything about the SWM technology that would interfere with DLB's implementation.


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> Why not just buy(lease) another HR20 and run them parallel?


I should lease two HR20s to get the functionality of one TiVo? :lol:

I emailed Comcast last night to find out what four cable cards would cost to outfit two dual tuner HD TiVo's. That is how important DLB is to me.

And Comcast quickly reminded me of why I am no longer a customer, after having the same cable company by various owners from 1974 until January 2004. The sales rep did not address my question, instead trying to sell me on the idea of Comcast's own DVRs. I asked "James " to kick the email exchange up to his supervisor's level.


----------



## Chuck584

cygnusloop said:


> Just something that has been percolating in the back of my mind....
> 
> I wonder if the implementation of SWM has anything to do with D*'s ability to easily implement DLB.
> 
> Earl's enigmatic responses regarding the"real" reason for D*'s continued silence on the matter have me thinking that it's something pretty basic about the design of their particular dual tuner DVR. It's the only thing that I can think of that is "different" about the HR20 when compared to other dual tuner DVR's.
> 
> Just a thought... Can any of you guys or gals that really understand the SWM implementation tell my why I might be wrong?


Given the ability (albeit sometimes faulty) to record an HD show while buffering a second HD show pretty much tells me it isn't a hardware issue. Given the ability to record two HD shows simultaneously again tells me the hardware can do it.

Double Live Buffer is nothing more (or less) than recording two shows at once. The difference being as each additional minute is recorded, the first minute of a 90 minute longer buffer is dumped.

From a software engineer's viewpoint, implementation of DLB should be both straight forward and easy given the demonstrated ability to record two shows at the same time. The difference being recorded shows have files open which are being appended and DLB has files open which are most likely being randomly accessed.

Were I implementing it, DLB would begin by allocating a full sized file for the video content as it is a known size. The first pointer would be to the first "block" and would increment until it reached the value "maxblocksize" at which point it would revert to "1" to write over the first increment of the now full 90 minute buffer.

There are many other ways to do it, none of which are difficult...


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> I should lease two HR20s to get the functionality of one TiVo? :lol:
> 
> I emailed Comcast last night to find out what four cable cards would cost to outfit two dual tuner HD TiVo's. That is how important DLB is to me.
> 
> And Comcast quickly reminded me of why I am no longer a customer, after having the same cable company by various owners from 1974 until January 2004. The sales rep did not address my question, instead trying to sell me on the idea of Comcast's own DVRs. I asked "James " to kick the email exchange up to his supervisor's level.


Well you seem to be willing and able to spend mucho bucks on other solutions. I am not sure what is wrong with my solution.:hurah:


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> Well you seem to be willing and able to spend mucho bucks on other solutions. I am not sure what is wrong with my solution.:hurah:


If Comcast's quoted rates for the cable cards and additional outlets are correct, I would save money by switching back to two Series 3 HD TiVos on Comcast with one SD outlet. TiVo has offered me a "sweet" deal to get me back as a customer though not as good as the old "lifetime" subscription.

I'm now waiting a response from Comcast as to when Pittsburgh will go "all digital" as they have in Chicago where my sister lives.

Of course, DirecTV just spent how much on two successful satellite launches which will increase HD capacity.

But I can network TiVo. The Dual Tuner box in the gameroom is fully accessible by the other TiVo. I would own the boxes and swap in huge drives.

With two HR20s, I'd have to either buy a new HT reciever with fully support HDMI switching or use two of my TV's HDMI inputs to get the DLB functionality of a single TiVo Series 3 HD. And I still wouldn't be able to network the HR20s like the TiVos to access programs. :nono2:

Honestly, I'm not inclined to go back to Comcast. Their "Customer Service" is horrible.

I'd prefer two HR20s with fully functional DLBs!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Chuck584 said:


> If Comcast's quoted rates for the cable cards and additional outlets are correct, I would save money by switching back to two Series 3 HD TiVos on Comcast with one SD outlet. TiVo has offered me a "sweet" deal to get me back as a customer though not as good as the old "lifetime" subscription.
> 
> I'm now waiting a response from Comcast as to when Pittsburgh will go "all digital" as they have in Chicago where my sister lives.
> 
> Of course, DirecTV just spent how much on two successful satellite launches which will increase HD capacity.
> 
> But I can network TiVo. The Dual Tuner box in the gameroom is fully accessible by the other TiVo. I would own the boxes and swap in huge drives.
> 
> With two HR20s, I'd have to either buy a new HT reciever with fully support HDMI switching or use two of my TV's HDMI inputs to get the DLB functionality of a single TiVo Series 3 HD. And I still wouldn't be able to network the HR20s like the TiVos to access programs. :nono2:
> 
> Honestly, I'm not inclined to go back to Comcast. Their "Customer Service" is horrible.
> 
> I'd prefer two HR20s with fully functional DLBs!


Be careful, the Tivo Series 3 will not work with Switched Digital Video (or VOD), which many cable companys will be going to in order to carry more HD channels.


----------



## Chuck584

theratpatrol said:


> Be careful, the Tivo Series 3 will not work with Switched Digital Video (or VOD), which many cable companys will be going to in order to carry more HD channels.


Comcast and TiVo go together like hand in glove. Comcast and TiVo announced a deal two years ago for Comcast to offer TiVo branded DVRs.

DirecTV could implement DLB with minimal effort. I don't understand why they're taking so long to do it. When I signed up for DirecTV HD and "leased" (that really honks me off) my HR20, the sales rep assured me DLB would be sooner rather than later.


----------



## Drew2k

Chuck584 said:


> Comcast and TiVo go together like hand in glove. Comcast and TiVo announced a deal two years ago for Comcast to offer TiVo branded DVRs.


True - they made a deal and TiVo has ported its software to Comcast's DVRs. However, if you go out and make that sweet deal to get back with TiVo, those Series 3 DVRs you got will be worthless if Comcast goes SDV. You'd have to replace your Series 3 DVRs with rental DVRs from Comcast.

Seems like a lot of hassle to me just because the HR20 is currently without DLB, but if that's what you want, that's what you should do.


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> Comcast and TiVo go together like hand in glove. Comcast and TiVo announced a deal two years ago for Comcast to offer TiVo branded DVRs.
> 
> *DirecTV could implement DLB with minimal effort*. I don't understand why they're taking so long to do it. When I signed up for DirecTV HD and "leased" (that really honks me off) my HR20, the sales rep assured me DLB would be sooner rather than later.


How do you know this?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cforrest said:


> #5 doesn't have DLB, since Cablevision uses the SA8300. It only buffers one tuner, yet it will record two streams.


Cablevision uses the Optimum iO which is the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD.

The following is from the users manual....
____________________________________________________________
_Watch Two TV Programs at the Same Time

PIP is built into the iO DVR, so you can watch two live programs at the
same time on any make or model TV that is connected to your iO DVR.
When something exciting occurs in the PIP program, you can easily swap
the PIP into the Main screen. Once that program is in the Main screen, you
can pause, rewind, or record it.

When the PIP screen position is covering a "must see" moment on the Main
screen, simply MOVE the PIP screen to a different corner of your TV screen._
_____________________________________________________________

I have downloaded the pdf's for each of the models in my list. I verified that you can swith
between live tuners with buffers intact.  I don't know for sure but it seems in some cases
that you will lose a pause point and have to rewind after switching tuners...._but_ it still has DLB.

Mike


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> How do you know this?


as relating to ease of implementing DLB.

The HR20 will record two shows at the same time.
The HR20 will record a show with the current SLB.
It will do the above while I watch a previously recorded show.

It follows, therefore, that the hardware clearly has the ability to record two streams at once.

From a 53 year old software engineer / system analyst's point of view, there is no difference between recording two streams for later viewing and recording two streams into a DLB.

A "live buffer" is simply one name for a currently recording stream.

Virtually every other DVR for satellite and cable supports DBL on dual tuner models.

Follow this model:

Is DVR recording two programs?
Yes: Record scheduled programs.

else if

Is DVR recording one program?
Yes: Record scheduled program and current channel in live buffer.

else

Record two live buffers. One for current channel and one for last viewed.


----------



## cygnusloop

Complexities of modern embedded software aside, hard to argue with that logic.

Nicely said, Chuck.


----------



## cforrest

I have used the 8300HD. It doesn't have DLB like TIVO. If it did I would have it at my place, instead I don't. If you change a channel on it, you lose the buffer, just like the HR20. Yeah it does PIP when you swap the PIP the buffer is gone. You can't go back, PIP swap again, to the original screen and rewind it. Whatever is on the big screen is what is buffered. So if you do a PIP swap, that program is no longer in the buffer. The DVR sucks, my gf has it and hates it after having used my HR10-250.  It will record 2 channel streams, but so does the HR20. Neither has DLB though 



MicroBeta said:


> Cablevision uses the Optimum iO which is the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD.
> 
> The following is from the users manual....
> ____________________________________________________________
> _Watch Two TV Programs at the Same Time
> 
> PIP is built into the iO DVR, so you can watch two live programs at the
> same time on any make or model TV that is connected to your iO DVR.
> When something exciting occurs in the PIP program, you can easily swap
> the PIP into the Main screen. Once that program is in the Main screen, you
> can pause, rewind, or record it.
> 
> When the PIP screen position is covering a "must see" moment on the Main
> screen, simply MOVE the PIP screen to a different corner of your TV screen._
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> I have downloaded the pdf's for each of the models in my list. I verified that you can swith
> between live tuners with buffers intact.  I don't know for sure but it seems in some cases
> that you will lose a pause point and have to rewind after switching tuners...._but_ it still has DLB.
> 
> Mike


----------



## Chuck584

Drew2k said:


> True - they made a deal and TiVo has ported its software to Comcast's DVRs. However, if you go out and make that sweet deal to get back with TiVo, those Series 3 DVRs you got will be worthless if Comcast goes SDV. You'd have to replace your Series 3 DVRs with rental DVRs from Comcast.
> 
> Seems like a lot of hassle to me just because the HR20 is currently without DLB, but if that's what you want, that's what you should do.


And if DirecTV decides to discontinue support for my DirecTV TiVos?

I'll have to replace my DirecTV TiVos with "leased" HR-20s which don't offer the same functionality?

The new TiVo HD supports all cable systems. My understanding of the deal between Comcast and TiVo is the box will support ALL of Comcast's feature set, now and into the future...

Should it turn out TiVo HD won't work on Comcast, I'll be able to sell them on eBay.

When DirecTV discontinues support for DirecTV TiVo, it wil make a nice boat anchor...

DirecTV sales should not have told me DLB was in the works to entice me to the HR-20 if they have no intention of implementing it any time soon.

To further muddy the waters, E* is said to be on the verge of activating the USB port to allow USB hard disk storage. The 622VIP supports DLB. If I can record shows on the gameroom VIP622 and move the program to an USB hard disk for playback on the entertainment room VIP622... And the VIP622 has DLB. And the VIP supports my Archos 504 and AV500 for SD shows.

DirecTV should look at this poll and say "Wow, 76% of the people say it's a must have..."


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> as relating to ease of implementing DLB.
> 
> The HR20 will record two shows at the same time.
> The HR20 will record a show with the current SLB.
> It will do the above while I watch a previously recorded show.
> 
> It follows, therefore, that the hardware clearly has the ability to record two streams at once.
> 
> From a 53 year old software engineer / system analyst's point of view, there is no difference between recording two streams for later viewing and recording two streams into a DLB.
> 
> A "live buffer" is simply one name for a currently recording stream.
> 
> Virtually every other DVR for satellite and cable supports DBL on dual tuner models.
> 
> Follow this model:
> 
> Is DVR recording two programs?
> Yes: Record scheduled programs.
> 
> else if
> 
> Is DVR recording one program?
> Yes: Record scheduled program and current channel in live buffer.
> 
> else
> 
> Record two live buffers. One for current channel and one for last viewed.


I am not a software engineer, so I bow to your expertise.

Question for Earl. Do you have any idea if it is this easy to do?


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> I am not a software engineer, so I bow to your expertise.
> 
> Question for Earl. Do you have any idea if it is this easy to do?


I'm not sure what OS or programming language they're using.

That being said, there is little difference in how I'd program for recording two streams for later playback and how I'd program for DLB.

The only difference I can see, without being familiar with TiVo's myriad sundry patents, is limiting the live buffer stream to the most current 90 minutes. That involves overwriting the oldest portion with the current portion when the buffer fills at 90 minutes.

Think of a "revolving door". As the most current person enters, the person in the door the longest exits (unless they're trying to get dizzy).

If TiVo's patents aren't a concern, this is child's play. I understand TiVo and DirecTV agreed not to enforce patent claims against each other for the term of the contract when they negotiated the current three year extension for DirecTV TiVo customers. If DirecTV has no intention of continuing the relationship beyond the current contract, then TiVo's patents loom like the Sword of Damocles. DirecTV should just pony up and negotiate the fees and implement DLB.

If, and this is a big if, it is a hardware issue, it would have to do with switching between buffers holding different compression streams. As an exampe, you're buffering a SD show and an HD show. Or you're buffering an MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 show.

I have my HR-20 set to "native" mode. I'm not sure if the brief delay when switching from recorded material to the live buffer is in the monitor switching resolutions or in the HR-20.

There are a lot of tasks being executed to display the show(s) and the feature set of the HR-20 adds to the complexity.

However, the programming logic for implementing DLB should be as straight forward as laid out.

I have been spoiled by TiVo. It lets me keep up with two shows without recording either. I have "upgraded" them to network and with huge storage. I can watch a show on this TiVo which was recorded by a TiVo in another room (or in a closet for that matter). I can access my TiVos and schedule recordings in Pittsburgh from anywhere in the world with an internet connection.

I seldom watch live TV beyond sports. I record entire seasons of shows (24, Lost, Supernatural, Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, SG-1, Atlantis, Jerhico, Medium, Ghost Whisperer to name a few) and watch them once the season ends. I spend 6 hours a day over three days to watch the entire season (I ignore commercials). It's fun to see "Winter Storm Warning" crawling across the bottom of the screen when it's 90 outside. :eek2:

My terabyte drive will give me what, 145 hours of HD in the HR20? The same as an upgraded TiVo HD. Looking at my shows, how quickly will that fill up?

I "leased" my HR20 for $299. I can buy an HD TiVo for $299. If I leave DirecTV, I have nothing. If I leave Comcast, I can eBay the TiVo and recover some value.

If D* allows concurrent use of interal hard drive and eSATA, I could double that to a more reasonable 290 hours. I could have 290 hours on two upgraded HD TiVos. Need more space, network another HD Tivo for another 145 hours. Need more? Stack up another networked TiVo. 

Comcast offers VOD. DirecTV?

Comcast offers the local HD subchannels? DirecTV?

Comcast "Customer Service" is the most annoying I've ever encountered. DirecTV?

DirecTV has some time.

Comcast won't be rolling out "all digital" in Pittsburgh soon.

Verizon hasn't negotiated a local contract yet.

E* is still waffling on the USB functionality for the 622.

Most important, I am loathe to change providers. But I will if I get more of what I want from another vendor.


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> I'm not sure what OS or programming language they're using.
> 
> That being said, there is little difference in how I'd program for recording two streams for later playback and how I'd program for DLB.
> 
> The only difference I can see, without being familiar with TiVo's myriad sundry patents, is limiting the live buffer stream to the most current 90 minutes. That involves overwriting the oldest portion with the current portion when the buffer fills at 90 minutes.
> 
> Think of a "revolving door". As the most current person enters, the person in the door the longest exits (unless they're trying to get dizzy).
> 
> If TiVo's patents aren't a concern, this is child's play. I understand TiVo and DirecTV agreed not to enforce patent claims against each other for the term of the contract when they negotiated the current three year extension for DirecTV TiVo customers. If DirecTV has no intention of continuing the relationship beyond the current contract, then TiVo's patents loom like the Sword of Damocles. DirecTV should just pony up and negotiate the fees and implement DLB.
> 
> If, and this is a big if, it is a hardware issue, it would have to do with switching between buffers holding different compression streams. As an exampe, you're buffering a SD show and an HD show. Or you're buffering an MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 show.
> 
> I have my HR-20 set to "native" mode. I'm not sure if the brief delay when switching from recorded material to the live buffer is in the monitor switching resolutions or in the HR-20.
> 
> There are a lot of tasks being executed to display the show(s) and the feature set of the HR-20 adds to the complexity.
> 
> However, the programming logic for implementing DLB should be as straight forward as laid out.
> 
> I have been spoiled by TiVo. It lets me keep up with two shows without recording either. I have "upgraded" them to network and with huge storage. I can watch a show on this TiVo which was recorded by a TiVo in another room (or in a closet for that matter). I can access my TiVos and schedule recordings in Pittsburgh from anywhere in the world with an internet connection.
> 
> I seldom watch live TV beyond sports. I record entire seasons of shows (24, Lost, Supernatural, Heroes, Battlestar Galactica, SG-1, Atlantis, Jerhico, Medium, Ghost Whisperer to name a few) and watch them once the season ends. I spend 6 hours a day over three days to watch the entire season (I ignore commercials). It's fun to see "Winter Storm Warning" crawling across the bottom of the screen when it's 90 outside. :eek2:
> 
> My terabyte drive will give me what, 145 hours of HD in the HR20? The same as an upgraded TiVo HD. Looking at my shows, how quickly will that fill up?
> 
> I "leased" my HR20 for $299. I can buy an HD TiVo for $299. If I leave DirecTV, I have nothing. If I leave Comcast, I can eBay the TiVo and recover some value.
> 
> If D* allows concurrent use of interal hard drive and eSATA, I could double that to a more reasonable 290 hours. I could have 290 hours on two upgraded HD TiVos. Need more space, network another HD Tivo for another 145 hours. Need more? Stack up another networked TiVo.
> 
> Comcast offers VOD. DirecTV?
> 
> Comcast offers the local HD subchannels? DirecTV?
> 
> Comcast "Customer Service" is the most annoying I've ever encountered. DirecTV?
> 
> DirecTV has some time.
> 
> Comcast won't be rolling out "all digital" in Pittsburgh soon.
> 
> Verizon hasn't negotiated a local contract yet.
> 
> E* is still waffling on the USB functionality for the 622.
> 
> Most important, I am loathe to change providers. But I will if I get more of what I want from another vendor.


MMMMMMMM, how is this post an answer to a question I asked Earl?


----------



## Drew2k

cforrest said:


> I have used the 8300HD. It doesn't have DLB like TIVO.


No, it's not like TiVo, because it doesn't save the pause point as you swap PIP windows, but ... it does independently buffer the foreground and background tuners, and if you swap PIP windows, you can rewind at will.

This is using the SA8300HD running SARA software, obtained from Cablevision of Hauppauge in NY.



> [ If it did I would have it at my place, instead I don't. If you change a channel on it, you lose the buffer, just like the HR20. Yeah it does PIP when you swap the PIP the buffer is gone. You can't go back, PIP swap again, to the original screen and rewind it. Whatever is on the big screen is what is buffered. So if you do a PIP swap, that program is no longer in the buffer.


Maybe you have a different version of the SARA software or a different version entirely.


> The [SA8300HD] DVR sucks [...]


Can't disagree with you there. 



> [...] my gf has it and hates it after having used my HR10-250.  It will record 2 channel streams, but so does the HR20. Neither has DLB though


But the SA8300HD does save 90 minutes of both buffers, without saving the pause point as the buffers are toggled. Is that a different definition of DLB? Maybe DLB without Saved Pause Points, so DLBWOSPP?


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> MMMMMMMM, how is this post an answer to a question I asked Earl?


You asked Earl if it were really that simple.

From a software engineering point of view it is just that simple.

I was trying to point out TiVo owns patents on such things as "media time warp" (roughly translated SLB and DLB inclusive).

If DrecTV is trying to reinvent the wheel to avoid licensing fees in the future, it could be no easy task. I have no way of knowing without examing the relevant patents for protected engineering.

If it is an issue with hardware stamina or limitations in dealing with dissimilar content buffers in a DLB context, there may no solution whatsoever.

Even the world's best programmers can't turn an abacus into an iMac.

If DirecTV has no intention of extending the current DirecTV TiVo contract to support current customers with it's "we won't sue each other" content...

Try to picture DirecTV saying "We won't be supporting DirecTV Tivo's in a couple years and you'll never see DLB because we don't want to pay patent licensing fees...

So while a majority of HR-20 owners want DLB, truth is we may never see it.

What if Comcast buys TiVo and refuses to grant any new licenses for the TiVo patents.

TiVo patents are most likely why we don't have "thumbs" ratings, "Suggestions", a decent interface to search for shows, etc.

TiVo also bought the IBM patents for "audience measurement" along with other relevant and pertinent DVR patents.

If DirecTV is reinventing the wheel, my understanding is that among other things, the programmers can have no prior knowledge of how DLB was done and has to be able to prove it if challenged by a patent holder. And that doesn't begin to enage "look and feel" patents.

I knew upfront the HR-20 was not, and never would be a TiVo. I was also told by sales DLB was recognized as very important (DirecTV has how many sports packages) and DLB was a priority.

Yet DLB is nowhere in sight...

So long as there is no DLB, this guy won't buy sports programming. Just that simple.


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> So long as there is no DLB, this guy won't buy sports programming. Just that simple.


To each his own!:lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cforrest said:


> I have used the 8300HD. It doesn't have DLB like TIVO. If it did I would have it at my place, instead I don't. If you change a channel on it, you lose the buffer, just like the HR20. Yeah it does PIP when you swap the PIP the buffer is gone. You can't go back, PIP swap again, to the original screen and rewind it. Whatever is on the big screen is what is buffered. So if you do a PIP swap, that program is no longer in the buffer. The DVR sucks, my gf has it and hates it after having used my HR10-250.  It will record 2 channel streams, but so does the HR20. Neither has DLB though


There was a bug early on with 8300 but has been corrected. Only going by what I've read in other forums, you can only switch between tuners from the PiP mode and it doesn't save a pause. You have to rewind. All of which is inconvenient but still DLB.

Mike


----------



## cforrest

Then I may be mistaken. I try to avoid using my gf's 8300 at all costs. Next time I am at her place I'll play around with the PIP and swap em around. I know Cablevision has put a few new software updates out since I last played around with the thing over a year ago.


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> Why not just buy(lease) another HR20 and run them parallel?


I read the HR20 user manual cover to cover without learning if that is even possible.

So...

I went to the DirecTV website, logged into my account, and asked this question in email to Support:

"Can two HR20 receivers be used in the same room?

I could set the remotes on my DirecTV TiVo units so I could use two without comflict.

Will the HR20 do this?"

And David B just replied:

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxxxxx,

Thanks for writing. In order to watch different programs in different rooms at the same time, you will need to have a separate DIRECTV receiver for each TV that you would like to use. As long as your DIRECTV receivers are hooked up to the same phone line, we can "mirror" your monthly programming to all of your receivers. Then, instead of charging you the full monthly price for each receiver, we charge the full price for the first set-top box, and bill each additional receiver at just $4.99 per receiver per month.

If you have further questions, please feel free to write us back or call us at 1-800-531-5000. Our call center is equipped with knowledgeable customer service representatives who can assist you with your concern.

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,

David B.

   

I would take this as meaning one can't use two HR20s in the same room *OR* David did not comprehend the question.

I wonder just what part of the question "David B" couldn't wrap his mind around? Which word tripped him up?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Chuck584 said:


> I read the HR20 user manual cover to cover without learning if that is even possible.
> 
> So...
> 
> I went to the DirecTV website, logged into my account, and asked this question in email to Support:
> 
> "Can two HR20 receivers be used in the same room?
> 
> I could set the remotes on my DirecTV TiVo units so I could use two without comflict.
> 
> Will the HR20 do this?"
> 
> And David B just replied:
> 
> Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxxxxx,
> 
> Thanks for writing. In order to watch different programs in different rooms at the same time, you will need to have a separate DIRECTV receiver for each TV that you would like to use. As long as your DIRECTV receivers are hooked up to the same phone line, we can "mirror" your monthly programming to all of your receivers. Then, instead of charging you the full monthly price for each receiver, we charge the full price for the first set-top box, and bill each additional receiver at just $4.99 per receiver per month.
> 
> If you have further questions, please feel free to write us back or call us at 1-800-531-5000. Our call center is equipped with knowledgeable customer service representatives who can assist you with your concern.
> 
> Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> David B.
> 
> 
> 
> I would take this as meaning one can't use two HR20s in the same room *OR* David did not comprehend the question.
> 
> I wonder just what part of the question "David B" couldn't wrap his mind around? Which word tripped him up?


You can use 2 HR20's in the same room. Here are a couple of posts from a previous thread by bonscott87 who used a programable remote to control 2 HR20's in the same room.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=916742&postcount=85

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=916960&postcount=96

Mike


----------



## falken

Chuck584 said:


> I would take this as meaning one can't use two HR20s in the same room *OR* David did not comprehend the question.
> 
> I wonder just what part of the question "David B" couldn't wrap his mind around? Which word tripped him up?


I would assume he scanned the email and selected a form letter response for you. Bottom line is he didn't read it well or didn't understand it.

But the answer is "Yes, you can". There are 2 IR remote codes for the HR20.


----------



## Drew2k

falken said:


> I would assume he scanned the email and selected a form letter response for you. Bottom line is he didn't read it well or didn't understand it.
> 
> But the answer is "Yes, you can". There are 2 IR remote codes for the HR20.


Exactly. And if you use RF instead of IR, you can apparently have several more HR20s in the same room ... just have to use different RF remotes for each additional HR20.


----------



## Chuck584

MicroBeta said:


> You can use 2 HR20's in the same room. Here are a couple of posts from a previous thread by bonscott87 who used a programable remote to control 2 HR20's in the same room.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=916742&postcount=85
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=916960&postcount=96
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the reply. The posts do not indicate how to achieve the result.

DirecTV just responded to my question again:

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxxxx,

Thanks for writing us back. I am sorry that this issue was not specifically addressed in our previous response. Yes, you can use two receivers in the same room provided that you will be connecting them to 2 different TVs. Otherwise, if you will just be using one TV, you will just need one receiver.

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,

Aurora

:lol:  :lol:

DirecTV has spoken. I can't hook two HR20s up to one TV!

Once I get some sleep I'll endeavor to discover how one can use two HR20s in one room connected to one TV.

Oh wait, maybe it's in the lease agreement. :grin:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Chuck584 said:


> Thanks for the reply. The posts do not indicate how to achieve the result.
> 
> DirecTV just responded to my question again:
> 
> Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxxxx,
> 
> Thanks for writing us back. I am sorry that this issue was not specifically addressed in our previous response. Yes, you can use two receivers in the same room provided that you will be connecting them to 2 different TVs. Otherwise, if you will just be using one TV, you will just need one receiver.
> 
> Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Aurora
> 
> :lol:  :lol:
> 
> DirecTV has spoken. I can't hook two HR20s up to one TV!
> 
> Once I get some sleep I'll endeavor to discover how one can use two HR20s in one room connected to one TV.
> 
> Oh wait, maybe it's in the lease agreement. :grin:


I guess no one ever told D* that TV's come with multiple inputs......

In the same thread there is a post that indicates that the "Remote" menu under the "Setup" menu will allow you set the unit to a different set of codes. Maybe 
bonscott87 can help with the specifics.

Mike
"Setup"


----------



## bonscott87

Wow, just happened to check in this thread today, I normally ignore it. I don't actually have 2 HR20's but I actually did recently do this with an H21. The receivers will come default as remote code 1 on the DirecTV device on the stock remote. Simply set the 2nd HR20 to remote code 2 and set that on the stock remote to AV1. At that point you now control both receivers with the same remote. And when you teach a programmable remote, each receiver will have different remote codes.

I found the exact steps on this forum and printed them out. Also printed out the instructions to "punch thru" the volume to all devices on the stock remote.

If I remember tonight I'll type it up and put it in the HR20 resources area because it took me a long time to find them via search.


----------



## Blitz68

Chuck584 said:


> And if DirecTV decides to discontinue support for my DirecTV TiVos?
> 
> To further muddy the waters, E* is said to be on the verge of activating the USB port to allow USB hard disk storage. The 622VIP supports DLB. If I can record shows on the gameroom VIP622 and move the program to an USB hard disk for playback on the entertainment room VIP622... And the VIP622 has DLB. And the VIP supports my Archos 504 and AV500 for SD shows.
> 
> DirecTV should look at this poll and say "Wow, 76% of the people say it's a must have..."


I would not put to much into E*'s DVR's. They are constantly battling Tivo in court. They might get there plug pulled altogether then what?

Quit complaining and enjoy what you have.

The HR10-250 is not a boat anchor. It can record 250hrs of SD programming. Move it to another room.


----------



## bonscott87

bonscott87 said:


> Wow, just happened to check in this thread today, I normally ignore it. I don't actually have 2 HR20's but I actually did recently do this with an H21. The receivers will come default as remote code 1 on the DirecTV device on the stock remote. Simply set the 2nd HR20 to remote code 2 and set that on the stock remote to AV1. At that point you now control both receivers with the same remote. And when you teach a programmable remote, each receiver will have different remote codes.
> 
> I found the exact steps on this forum and printed them out. Also printed out the instructions to "punch thru" the volume to all devices on the stock remote.
> 
> If I remember tonight I'll type it up and put it in the HR20 resources area because it took me a long time to find them via search.


Instructions found here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93377


----------



## Chuck584

Blitz68 said:


> I would not put to much into E*'s DVR's. They are constantly battling Tivo in court. They might get there plug pulled altogether then what?
> 
> Quit complaining and enjoy what you have.
> 
> The HR10-250 is not a boat anchor. It can record 250hrs of SD programming. Move it to another room.


DirecTV's contract with TiVo was set to expire at the end of 2007. Had it expired, DirecTV TiVo's would have been useless. The plug would have been pulled.

DirecTV, with how many subscriber's using DirecTV TiVo's, negotiated a three year contract which, according to published reports, includes a clause where TiVo will not sue DirecTV over patents and DirecTV will not sue TiVo over patents.

When that contract expires, what happens if DirecTV finds itself in the same boat as E* defending itself against patent infringement lawsuits? What if TiVo refuses to renew and DirecTV has to pull the plug on all DirecTV TiVo users?

With TiVo's current relationship with Comcast and the possibility of Comcast purchasing TiVo, then what?

I'm complaining because the DirecTV sales people held out that DLB was a high priority and would be implemented in the neat future when I inquired about HD programming. They assured me it would be "functionally equivalent to your Samsung SIR4120R" which the HR20 replaced for a brief while.

I had made the decision to drop DirecTV for E* and would be an E* customer if their sales people had grasped the concept that I wanted two VIP622 boxes, one of each of the HD TVs. I did not want to share one box between two HDTVs.

I spent time today and discovered how to achive the well hidden ability to control two HR20s in the same room. TiVo documents it in their user manuals. But then DirecTV is not, and never will be, TiVo.

I was once a happy DirecTV customer, not so much anymore because their support people are taking a page from Comcast and not addressing customer concerns.

I sent this email reply inquiry to DirecTV Customer Service once they discovered two HR20s could, in deed and in fact, be used in the same room:

Dear Ms. Aurora,

Thank you for taking the time to understand the question.

How does one program the remote control codes for using two HR20s in one room. It is not covered in the manual as it was with your TiVo units and there is no reference on the website or on the HR20 forum on DBSTALK.COM

and this is the response I received:

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxx,

Thanks for writing us back and following up on your previous e-mail. I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble programming your remote control. I see that you have been with us since December 2003; I want to let you know that we appreciate your business.

Since you have the DIRECTV Protection Plan the best way for you to get help as soon as possible is to call 1-888-667-7463 and choose the option to speak to a technical assistant. You may also find some helpful information at the DIRECTV Technical Help forums on our web site. Just visit http://forums.directv.com/pe/index.jsp to find answers to your questions.

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.

Sincerely,

Warren A

:lol:

I sat there for a minute and wondered why I had a Protection Plan on leased equipment. It made some small sense when I owned equipment but now that the boxes belong to DirecTV?

I called and cancelled the Protection Plan. This poor level of service has just cost them $96 a year if I stay with DirecTV.

While talking the CSR, I asked about a second HR20. $299 plus $21 and change shipping. They are real interested in keeping my business.

I asked what the contract cancellation penalty is. This got the price down to free plus shipping. I replied that was not the question which resulted in my transfer to someone who did eventually answer my question. She offered all sorts of enticements to stay. I said "Double Live Buffers" a la TiVo in the HR 20 would be all I need to stay. She had no answer for that.

I sat down and composed a letter to Chase Carey. I continued as a customer of DirecTV and added HD based on the assurance DLB would be implemented before football season. And Mr. Carey needs to know how their Customer Service Department is working with customers.

When I pay for something and it isn't delivered as promised I have every right to be unhappy. When I pay for a full glass I won't be satisfied with a glass poured half full. :grin:


----------



## MikeR7

Chuck584 said:


> DirecTV's contract with TiVo was set to expire at the end of 2007. Had it expired, DirecTV TiVo's would have been useless. The plug would have been pulled.
> 
> DirecTV, with how many subscriber's using DirecTV TiVo's, negotiated a three year contract which, according to published reports, includes a clause where TiVo will not sue DirecTV over patents and DirecTV will not sue TiVo over patents.
> 
> When that contract expires, what happens if DirecTV finds itself in the same boat as E* defending itself against patent infringement lawsuits? What if TiVo refuses to renew and DirecTV has to pull the plug on all DirecTV TiVo users?
> 
> With TiVo's current relationship with Comcast and the possibility of Comcast purchasing TiVo, then what?
> 
> I'm complaining because the DirecTV sales people held out that DLB was a high priority and would be implemented in the neat future when I inquired about HD programming. They assured me it would be "functionally equivalent to your Samsung SIR4120R" which the HR20 replaced for a brief while.
> 
> I had made the decision to drop DirecTV for E* and would be an E* customer if their sales people had grasped the concept that I wanted two VIP622 boxes, one of each of the HD TVs. I did not want to share one box between two HDTVs.
> 
> I spent time today and discovered how to achive the well hidden ability to control two HR20s in the same room. TiVo documents it in their user manuals. But then DirecTV is not, and never will be, TiVo.
> 
> I was once a happy DirecTV customer, not so much anymore because their support people are taking a page from Comcast and not addressing customer concerns.
> 
> I sent this email reply inquiry to DirecTV Customer Service once they discovered two HR20s could, in deed and in fact, be used in the same room:
> 
> Dear Ms. Aurora,
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to understand the question.
> 
> How does one program the remote control codes for using two HR20s in one room. It is not covered in the manual as it was with your TiVo units and there is no reference on the website or on the HR20 forum on DBSTALK.COM
> 
> and this is the response I received:
> 
> Dear Mr. Xxxxxxxxx,
> 
> Thanks for writing us back and following up on your previous e-mail. I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble programming your remote control. I see that you have been with us since December 2003; I want to let you know that we appreciate your business.
> 
> Since you have the DIRECTV Protection Plan the best way for you to get help as soon as possible is to call 1-888-667-7463 and choose the option to speak to a technical assistant. You may also find some helpful information at the DIRECTV Technical Help forums on our web site. Just visit http://forums.directv.com/pe/index.jsp to find answers to your questions.
> 
> Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news and information about our services.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Warren A
> 
> :lol:
> 
> I sat there for a minute and wondered why I had a Protection Plan on leased equipment. It made some small sense when I owned equipment but now that the boxes belong to DirecTV?
> 
> I called and cancelled the Protection Plan. This poor level of service has just cost them $96 a year if I stay with DirecTV.
> 
> While talking the CSR, I asked about a second HR20. $299 plus $21 and change shipping. They are real interested in keeping my business.
> 
> I asked what the contract cancellation penalty is. This got the price down to free plus shipping. I replied that was not the question which resulted in my transfer to someone who did eventually answer my question. She offered all sorts of enticements to stay. I said "Double Live Buffers" a la TiVo in the HR 20 would be all I need to stay. She had no answer for that.
> 
> I sat down and composed a letter to Chase Carey. I continued as a customer of DirecTV and added HD based on the assurance DLB would be implemented before football season. And Mr. Carey needs to know how their Customer Service Department is working with customers.
> 
> When I pay for something and it isn't delivered as promised I have every right to be unhappy. When I pay for a full glass I won't be satisfied with a glass poured half full. :grin:


Well Chuck, we know where you stand. Thanks.:lol:


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR7 said:


> Well Chuck, we know where you stand. Thanks.:lol:


Thanks!

I was worried about that.


----------



## Chuck584

falken said:


> I would assume he scanned the email and selected a form letter response for you. Bottom line is he didn't read it well or didn't understand it.
> 
> But the answer is "Yes, you can". There are 2 IR remote codes for the HR20.


From my brief and limited experiments today, it appears you can set the HR20 and remote to 1) DirecTV, 2) AV1, and 3) AV2 which would allow three HR20s to be controlled by one remote.

Another user suggested using RF.

I installed the RF antenna on the back of the HR20. I entered the codes as presented on the screen. Didn't work. Repeated three times. Same issue.

Oops, seems like some HR20-100s have issues with their included RC34 remote. Would I like a refurb?

Sigh...

Oh well.

Earl indicated to me in the "EngadgetHD: Is DirecTV's HR20 ready for prime-time" thread that: "DLB... not there.. probably won't be there anytime soon."

I will sit back and patiently wait for August 15th, the introduction of the VIP722 and activation of the USB port for hard disk archiving of shows.

Meanwhile, I'm on the waiting list for a TiVo HD for use with Comcast pending Comcast's answer on when Pittsburgh will go "all digital".

Verizon says they're close to bringing FIOS TV to my neighborhood.

I feel like a kid nearing Christmas with anticipation.


----------



## Blitz68

Enjoy E* nothing like going backwards, some people love going backwards.

Going forward is scarry at times.


----------



## tiger2005

Blitz68 said:


> Enjoy E* nothing like going backwards, some people love going backwards.
> 
> Going forward is scarry at times.


And that is why opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.


----------



## DblD_Indy

tiger2005 said:


> And that is why opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.


And some of them smell!


----------



## smitchell24

Hi, with regards to DLB or SLB can anyone confirm that I should be able to do the following:

I am recording & watching a live baseball game (Detroit Tigers) & would like pause it in between innings to watch a previously recorded show & than switch back & fast forward the commercials to catch the whole game interruption free. 

Cause when I attempt to pause the live baseball game, which I am recording, & switch to "previous channel" to watch the recorded show, it loses the pause function on the game & continues playing, which I dont want?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

smitchell24 said:


> Hi, with regards to DLB or SLB can anyone confirm that I should be able to do the following:
> 
> I am recording & watching a live baseball game (Detroit Tigers) & would like pause it in between innings to watch a previously recorded show & than switch back & fast forward the commercials to catch the whole game.
> 
> Cause when I attempt to pause the live baseball game, which I am recording, & switch to "previous channel" to watch the recorded show, it loses the pause function on the game & continues playing, which I dont want?


Instead of watching the game live as soon as it starts recording play it from you playlist and when it gets to the first commercial select the other show that you want to watch from you playlist and select that show to play. Then if you press the previous button it should keep the show where it is and then you will go back to the game and that should be where you stop watching it. Then you can just keep going to the other show like that.

I am pretty sure that is how it works. I have not done it yet so if that is not correct someone please correct me.


----------



## smitchell24

BMoreRavens said:


> Instead of watching the game live as soon as it starts recording play it from you playlist and when it gets to the first commercial select the other show that you want to watch from you playlist and select that show to play. Then if you press the previous button it should keep the show where it is and then you will go back to the game and that should be where you stop watching it. Then you can just keep going to the other show like that.
> 
> I am pretty sure that is how it works. I have not done it yet so if that is not correct someone please correct me.


Okay, thanks for the info...trying this method too, but does not appear to work! Will keep fiddling around with it.


----------



## christo76

BMoreRavens said:


> Instead of watching the game live as soon as it starts recording play it from you playlist and when it gets to the first commercial select the other show that you want to watch from you playlist and select that show to play. Then if you press the previous button it should keep the show where it is and then you will go back to the game and that should be where you stop watching it. Then you can just keep going to the other show like that.
> 
> I am pretty sure that is how it works. I have not done it yet so if that is not correct someone please correct me.


I did this last night. There is one giant issue I ran into though. During the bottom of the 8th inning of the Brewers/Mets game my recording suddenly ended asking me to keep or delete. I deleted and it exited to live. Luckily I didn't have anything else recording to it kept its buffer, and it was a currently at a commercial break, so I was able to skip to beginning, which happened to be about 3 minutes before the point it stopped recording.

I don't know why it asked me to delete. The time bar showed it would be a 4+ hr program even with me starting deep into the game. It had 2-3 hrs left to fill.

Chances are more likely that I would normally have something else recording and I would normally lose my buffer.

And if it hadn't been a commercial break, it would have ruined the rest of the game for me by showing the near end of game score.

The work-around everyone praises... IS NOT A WORK AROUND... at least not until SLB and other standard features of the HR20 begin to work correctly. Lets not even get into how pissed the Slo-Mo got me... thats another thread.


----------



## Chuck584

Blitz68 said:


> The HR10-250 is not a boat anchor. It can record 250hrs of SD programming. Move it to another room.


I don't have an HR10-250, I have one HR20.

For SD I have a Philips DSR704 with 750 hours and a Samsung SIR4120R with 750 hours, networked using hobbyist enhancements. 

When D* finishes the conversion of MPEG-2 HD channels to MPEG-4, well, if I paid $$$ for the box I'd be a bit upset.


----------



## boltjames

Blitz68 said:


> The HR10-250 is not a boat anchor. It can record 250hrs of SD programming. Move it to another room.


What's SD programming? People still watch that?

BJ


----------



## NickD

boltjames said:


> What's SD programming? People still watch that?
> 
> BJ


You must not have children or you only watch things on locals & HBO/Showtime HD. I am still forced to watch SD for alot of our shows


----------



## sgnhaf

a must


----------



## cygnusloop

Really missing DLB this evening with the breaking news regarding the bridge collapse in Minnesota. 

Thoughts and prayers for all those affected. What a horrible tragedy.


----------



## Que

Que said:


> *If you feel strongly about DLB. Please copy and print this letter. Make sure to include your account number and name. *
> 
> Attention: President, D*
> 
> I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.
> 
> I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.
> 
> Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.
> 
> Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.
> 
> I'm writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.
> 
> I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV's plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.
> 
> Thank you for your time,
> 
> *[Letter #2]*
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.
> 
> The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.
> 
> While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.
> 
> 1. Dish Network - ViP622
> 2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> 3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> 4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> 5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> 6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> 7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 8. AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.
> 
> Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Mail to:
> *
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550*


I'm just going to keep the 2 letters instead of just making one. People can just pick the one the want to send. Heck send the 2nd one the next day.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1592 75.74%
Don't really care about it. 121 5.76%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 389 18.51%
Voters: 2102.

Replies Views

1,138 63,976


----------



## Chuck584

Que said:


> A must have! 1592 75.74%
> Don't really care about it. 121 5.76%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 389 18.51%
> Voters: 2102.
> 
> Replies Views
> 
> 1,138 63,976


This issue leads this thread to be the most viewed by a 3 to 1 margin and most replied by an even wider margin.

Earl, who is well connected, has stated several times recently, "DLB is not in active development, and there are no indications that it will change any time soon."

I have the time to drop the President of D* a letter regarding the issue.

I'm not sure what good it will do as I get the distinct impression that what the customer wants is the farthest thing from management's mind.

It's a crying shame when a company fails to devote adequate resources to the development of their "flagship product" (HD DVR).

I strongly urge everyone to recall the efforts of fans of TV shows like Roswell and Jericho. Roswell fans kept the show alive by sending bottles of tobasco sauce. Fans of Jericho sent nuts.

What can we send the head honcho of D* to make the point?

What my pet cockatiel drops on the cage bottom comes to mind. 

Take the time to copy one of the excellent letters posted here or draft your own. If we want DLB, we have to awaken management to their subordinate's complete failure to address customer concerns on all levels. Someone should be called in to explain what has happened since the introduction of the HR20.

D* does not care and will not care until it hears from enough unhappy customers.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Chuck584 said:


> It's a crying shame when a company fails to devote adequate resources to the development of their "flagship product" (HD DVR).
> 
> D* does not care and will not care until it hears from enough unhappy customers.


I couldn't agree with you more!

I posted a letter earlier in this thread. It's one of two letters posted, the other by jaywdetroit (thanks jay).

I think we should each take the points we like from both letters and customize our own.

This way each letter is personal and not just the same cut-n-paste form letter. I think it's more likely to get read if it's different from what they've already read.

I'm going to add a point or two from jaywdetroit's and even edit my stuff a little.

IMHO, there's another big reason that D* needs to pay attention to *DLB*.

In previous posts I listed the offerings by other SP's. The fact that you can watch "2 programs" at once is usually in a quick start guide or brochure but definitely in manual.

People probably don't know that it's called *Dual Live Buffers* but they certainty know what it does.

People want to know what their new _SUPERWAMPLADYNE_ HDTV's can show 'em. They'll talk to their brother or neighbor about DVR's and sit down to see what the box can do. *DLB* will be a very cool, very easy feature to show 'em.

Lets face it, to most people a _DVR_ is just a new kind of _VCR_. All DVR's have tha same basic featrues and I think a lot of newbies will make a choice based on what friends and family tell them.

With most features being equal...one can watch 2 shows at once and the other can't...which would you choose?

Mike

ps - basic features...Try not to start pointing out how one does this/that better than the other. I'm trying to look at it as someone who is new to DVR's. With all the info to take in, I think *DLB* is one that is likely to stick in someones mine.

pps - The litter box needs to be scooped daily...


----------



## Chuck584

MicroBeta said:


> I couldn't agree with you more!
> 
> I posted a letter earlier in this thread. It's one of two letters posted, the other by jaywdetroit (thanks jay).
> 
> I think we should each take the points we like from both letters and customize our own.
> 
> ...
> 
> IMHO, there's another big reason that D* needs to pay attention to *DLB*.
> 
> In previous posts I listed the offerings by other SP's. The fact that you can watch "2 programs" at once is usually in a quick start guide or brochure but definitely in manual.
> 
> People probably don't know that it's called *Dual Live Buffers* but they certainty know what it does.


I think people can tell I was a bit more frustrated than usual last evening with the lack of DLB.

The disaster occured with the bridge collapse and I tossed on two news channels like I've done for more than 7 years with TiVo. Oops, only one is buffered. Do the lame "work around" and record both channels as the SLB still has some issues.

The HR20 has been out for about a year now. Some are offended that a majority of people voting on Endgadgets poll rate it not ready for prime time or nearly ready for prime time (or some similar wording). In simple terms, the majority of people feel it is still lacking what it needs to be "Ready for Prime Time".

D* will spend how many millions to launch satellites and skimp on R&D for the hardware to use the satellites?

I was looking at TiVo's quarterly results and if I remember correctly they spent around $14 million developing the TiVo HD and on the Comcast roll out.

I'd like to think D* would dedicate one dollar each of the 16 million subscribers, or $16 million a month on developing the subscribers hardware. Even half a buck would yield $8 million a month to get us boxes which work right and have features virtually every other company does.

Yet the feature (or more properly the lack thereof) which generates the most traffice here and on other DBS sites is "Not under active developement" or some such.

Anyone out there know if D* is under the GNU license? If so, what's the link? If D* can't afford the talent to properly develop the software maybe some of us can look at the code and help things along. DLB is not rocket sceince.

On the happy side I am now the proud owner of a TiVo HD which will shortly have a MS cablecard beating inside. Even after the "sweetheart" period, it looks like my bill might go down if I return to Comcast. Think I could squeeze them to cover the D* cancellation fee? E* would. 

I wrote a letter and mailed it today. I covered the DLB issue and an issue I had with email "tech support".

If the Alien parody commercial were true to HR20 function, "Ripley" could only use one arm and the mech suit would glitch. :lol:


----------



## christo76

Once again it can be verified that the HR20 does actually maintain both buffers and only clears when you actually change a channel, or even back to the channel on the background buffer.

Reason:
Using the workaround method, I recorded the brewers game on 642. Then tuned into espnhd and watched some nascar. I then went back and forth from the game to Nascar. Just as happens everytime I use this crap method for DLB, it stopped recording durring the top of the 9th. So after confirming the Delete Now, I hit guide. In the small window, of course, EspnHD was on. I changed the guide to 642 and it record on the postgame show that was 45 minutes into it.

Then I exited to full screen ESPNHD, hit list, selected Brewers Postgame and it started me, 1 pitch after where my recording left off, with all 45 minutes stored.

So it did maintain the second buffer. If I had exited and tried to tune to 642 then record I know I would have gotten nothing.

So once again, it does seem the HR20 could easily have DLB. Why it continues to be Off The Table (OTT?) makes no sense to me.


----------



## bonscott87

christo76 said:


> Just as happens everytime I use this crap method for DLB, it stopped recording durring the top of the 9th. .


I know this isn't a DLB issues, but why don't you add padding to the end of your games? With baseball I'd think adding an hour padding would be standard in case of extra innings. For example, I always add 30 minute pad to any hockey game I record, 3 hours in playoffs.


----------



## lman

bonscott87 said:


> I know this isn't a DLB issues, but why don't you add padding to the end of your games? With baseball I'd think adding an hour padding would be standard in case of extra innings. For example, I always add 30 minute pad to any hockey game I record, 3 hours in playoffs.


With DLB it wouldn't even be necessary to record the 2 games. Therefore padding would not be required.


----------



## christo76

bonscott87 said:


> I know this isn't a DLB issues, but why don't you add padding to the end of your games? With baseball I'd think adding an hour padding would be standard in case of extra innings. For example, I always add 30 minute pad to any hockey game I record, 3 hours in playoffs.


With most of my baseball watching (and other sports), I am not planning it ahead of time. I used to just tune to the game (or games) and be set. Now I am trying to do what everyone claims is perfectly simple (and the easy workaround for DLB), but it no where near simple or perfect.

Can I even add padding to a game that is already recording? I have never tried.

I spose I could also pull out my VCR and just let it record until the tape runs out....

The point of my original post is that the HR20 does maintain 2 buffers, and all I ask is that I be able to see that buffer if I turn back to that channel.


----------



## bonscott87

christo76 said:


> With most of my baseball watching (and other sports), I am not planning it ahead of time. I used to just tune to the game (or games) and be set. Now I am trying to do what everyone claims is perfectly simple (and the easy workaround for DLB), but it no where near simple or perfect.
> 
> Can I even add padding to a game that is already recording? I have never tried.
> 
> I spose I could also pull out my VCR and just let it record until the tape runs out....
> 
> The point of my original post is that the HR20 does maintain 2 buffers, and all I ask is that I be able to see that buffer if I turn back to that channel.


I understand and I'm staying out of the DLB discussion. Was simply trying to help you out with your problem of the game running over. Sorry. I'll let someone else try.


----------



## christo76

bonscott87 said:


> I understand and I'm staying out of the DLB discussion. Was simply trying to help you out with your problem of the game running over. Sorry. I'll let someone else try.


Do you know if you can add additional time after its already recording?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

christo76 said:


> Do you know if you can add additional time after its already recording?


Yes you can...
You can go into the either the INFO tab, via the recording... or via the todo list... and add time.


----------



## boltjames

Update:

It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.

BJ


----------



## cygnusloop

boltjames said:


> Update:
> 
> It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.
> 
> BJ


It's now been 6+ months since I migrated to the HR20, and I miss DLB daily . Have I learned to live without it? Well, I'm still here, so yeah, I guess I have. Doesn't mean I don't still want it.

I, too, think D* has done a good job in addressing most the "big" issues with regards to DVR functionality, and I also hope they will continue to address those issues that are still outstanding. As they continue to add new features, I respectfully request that they put DLB on the list.


----------



## lman

boltjames said:


> Update:
> 
> It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.
> 
> BJ


I'm happy for you, however this thread shows how many of us feel that DirecTV is forcing us to watch high definition with a product(HR20) that is inferior to the DirecTivo since it doesn't even have a basic feature like DLB. I would be satisfied with the same features I had previously. If DirecTV wanted to keep it's customers happy, they would not have eliminated a basic feature like DLB.


----------



## cygnusloop

lman said:


> ...DirecTV is forcing us to watch high definition with a product(HR20) that is inferior to the DirecTivo since it doesn't even have a basic feature like DLB.


Now, I am _most definitely_ a DLB rabble rouser, but even I can't agree with that statement. While the feature set of the HR20 is different that the SD-DTiVos, and the HR10-250, I wouldn't characterize it as _inferior_. IMHO, it has a glaring omission (the aforementioned DLB). I think inferior is an unfair characterization of what is in most other ways, a very nice machine. The native mode alone (for me) makes the HR20 a _superior _DVR when compared to many, if not most, HD-DVR's out there.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion, lman, but reading it, I felt the need to share my thoughts.


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Update:
> 
> It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.
> 
> BJ


That's great. I'd bet that EVERYONE is happy for you. Now that you have told us how much you don't miss or want DLB, I guess there's no reason for you to continue posting on this thread. I look forward to reading your opinions on the other topics on this board.


----------



## anubys

beer_geek said:


> That's great. I'd bet that EVERYONE is happy for you. Now that you have told us how much you don't miss or want DLB, I guess there's no reason for you to continue posting on this thread. I look forward to reading your opinions on the other topics on this board.


I don't agree with Bolt's opinion...HOWEVER, this thread is about discussing the merits of DLB and NOT a DLB love-in...therefore, his opinion matters and is relevant to the discussion...

even if his opinion is wrong


----------



## beer_geek

anubys said:


> I don't agree with Bolt's opinion...HOWEVER, this thread is about discussing the merits of DLB and NOT a DLB love-in...therefore, his opinion matters and is relevant to the discussion...
> 
> even if his opinion is wrong


I never said that his opinion didn't matter. I stated that his opinion on this topic is now known. There's a big difference.


----------



## anubys

beer_geek said:


> I never said that his opinion didn't matter. I stated that his opinion on this topic is now known. There's a big difference.


by the same token, your opinion is now known as well...should you not post in this thread anymore?

you certainly implied that he should leave this thread and not post anymore (since his opinion is known)...if I misunderstood your post, I apologize...if I did not, then I disagree with you...no big deal...

I want DLB :grin:


----------



## beer_geek

anubys said:


> by the same token, your opinion is now known as well...should you not post in this thread anymore?
> 
> you certainly implied that he should leave this thread and not post anymore (since his opinion is known)...if I misunderstood your post, I apologize...if I did not, then I disagree with you...no big deal...
> 
> I want DLB :grin:


Touche.

Anyone should post on any thread as long as it is not incessant repetition.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> Update:
> 
> It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.
> 
> BJ


It's now been 11 months since I migrated from an SD Tivo to an HR20 and I still miss DLB daily. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on improving and fixing the HR20 and hope they will continue this effort by adding one of the most glaring missing features, in DLB.


----------



## christo76

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes you can...
> You can go into the either the INFO tab, via the recording... or via the todo list... and add time.


Thanks Earl. I will try that. That will help make things a little better until the day DLB is finally installed.


----------



## jheda

Important is a conclusion, not an opinion, stated as you have. Everyone respects your opinion. However, everyone decides whats important to them.



boltjames said:


> Update:
> 
> It's now been 12 weeks since I migrated from an HR10 to an HR20 and I don't miss DLB one iota. I feel D* has done a good job in keeping a strong focus on only the important elements in a DVR, and hope they continue.
> 
> BJ


----------



## SilverShadow

I've been a DirecTV® customer for about 11 years. I've subscribed to NFL Sunday Ticket™ for the last 10 years or so and have been using a DIRECTV® DVR with TiVo® (a.k.a DirecTiVo, Hughes GXCEBOTD -- which has been fantastic) with dual live buffers for the majority of those.

_*About to finally move to HD (triggered by release of new Sony LCD TVs), but the only thing that is keeping me at this point is the lack of dual live buffers with the HR20.*_ For me (and many others I suspect), sports packages without them is simply ridiculous...

Approximately $250 for NFL Sunday Ticket™ with no way to queue up other games than the one that I'm watching (other than recording the whole thing)? With the difference in timing of the games and dual buffers you can effectively watch lots of games. For example, I always watch the full Packers games and catch various parts of other games while they are playing. Watching them after they are over is a poor option as the tickers during the game would spoils the results for other games. Depending on how games progress, I'll queue up parts of games while others are in halftime. Additionally, I'll queue up the end of a game that's close and constantly toggle between games. As soon as that's over, I'll queue up the end of another game. This can't be effectively done with the workaround of always using dual recordings... ARGH! :icon_lame

In my opinion, there are two types of value from NFL Sunday Ticket™ (and other sports packages). Watching games for your team when you live "out of market", and being able to bits and pieces of other games as you wish.

Without Dual Live Buffers, the value of the "other games" is at best, significantly diminished.

How frustrating... 

Unfortunately, this is causing me to _seriously_ reconsider being a DirecTV® customer.

Most frustrating of all is that this is not a difficult feature to incorporate. I am also a software engineer, but you don't have to be one to understand that technically this would be relatively simple.
1) Already have dual tuners and can record on each at same time (same or different types of streams). 
2) Already have algorithms, routines, methods for live content buffering (revolving door concept). 
3) Hardware limitations aren't an issue, as it would be miniscule amount of processing to "release" disk space used for the second buffer (content more than 30 or 90 minutes old). Hardware contention isn't an issue here as two streams can already be recorded (while a third is played from disk no less).

It would be hard to believe that not having dual live buffers could be due to patents and potential infringement on the concept. I believe that this could pose a problem for providing one live buffer, which already exists. That is a novel concept. Simply adding an additional one for a second tuner would not make the concept unique.

In my opinion, this is an example of poor Product Management. As most know, when simplified, there are two primary factors go into selecting features to be implemented. Cost (to implement and maintain) and perceived value (by customer, value added by having it or value reduced by not having an expected feature). On a simple scale, cost related to implementing and supporting dual live buffers is low per points above. Value is at least medium, as there is a revenue impact (see other references in this forum alone) caused by selling less sports packages and losing some potential existing customers. This especially impacts "power" users/customers, which generally spend more on equipment and add-ons (such as on sports packages) and are generally are the most valuable bringing new customers in and converting customers from the competition via "word of mouth" advertising/marketing.

Anyway, hopefully Product Management is savvy enough to monitor requested features and finally make this happen. If not, I guess I'll change services (and speak my mind to all my friends and family that come to me for advice on technology related stuff such as television service providers). Interesting how one key feature can have such a large impact on some people. 

Anyways, just my two cents...

NFL Sunday Ticket is a registered trademark of the National Football League and its affiliates.
DirecTV is a trademark or registered trademark of DirecTV, Inc.
TiVo and the TiVo logo are registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries.


----------



## cygnusloop

SilverShadow said:


> Anyways, just my two cents...


Nice first post, SilverShadow.

And, :welcome_s to DBSTalk!


----------



## SteveHas

Thank You Silver Shadow.
This is one of the most intelligent, well thought out, technical arguments I've read here,
I hope someone listens


----------



## raott

SilverShadow said:


> In my opinion, this is an example of poor Product Management. As most know, when simplified, there are two primary factors go into selecting features to be implemented. Cost (to implement and maintain) and perceived value (by customer, value added by having it or value reduced by not having an expected feature). On a simple scale, cost related to implementing and supporting dual live buffers is low per points above. Value is at least medium, as there is a revenue impact (see other references in this forum alone) caused by selling less sports packages and losing some potential existing customers. This especially impacts "power" users/customers, which generally spend more on equipment and add-ons (such as on sports packages) and are generally are the most valuable bringing new customers in and converting customers from the competition via "word of mouth" advertising/marketing.
> 
> Anyway, hopefully Product Management is savvy enough to monitor requested features and finally make this happen. If not, I guess I'll change services (and speak my mind to all my friends and family that come to me for advice on technology related stuff such as television service providers). Interesting how one key feature can have such a large impact on some people.
> 
> Anyways, just my two cents...
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket is a registered trademark of the National Football League and its affiliates.
> DirecTV is a trademark or registered trademark of DirecTV, Inc.
> TiVo and the TiVo logo are registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries.


Unfortunately, IMO, D*'s DVR product managers have shown zero savy. Both the HR20 and R15 were rushed out, and IMO basic features not working (ie skip-to-tick and DLBs both of which IMO are basic, standard features). Their hands have basically been held by members of this website to get the HR20 to where it is now and to get the R15 stable (which took over a year and is still behind the HR20 in features).

I keep hearing how they have their reasons why DLB was not included, but those reasons have never been given and publicly shared, and with the product managers track record on other issues, I seriously question the rationale.

Where was the design for six sigma? D* is catering to sports fans, yet one of the major features on prior D* DVRs (and almost all competitors DVRS) that sports fans used is left off? Do they know and understand their customer CTQ's??


----------



## Chuck584

SilverShadow said:


> Most frustrating of all is that this is not a difficult feature to incorporate. I am also a software engineer, but you don't have to be one to understand that technically this would be relatively simple.
> 1) Already have dual tuners and can record on each at same time (same or different types of streams).
> 2) Already have algorithms, routines, methods for live content buffering (revolving door concept).
> 3) Hardware limitations aren't an issue, as it would be miniscule amount of processing to "release" disk space used for the second buffer (content more than 30 or 90 minutes old). Hardware contention isn't an issue here as two streams can already be recorded (while a third is played from disk no less).


I couldn't agree more.

The more software engineers that speak out, the more people will come to understand there is no substantive reason for not implementing it beyond poor planning and management.


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## jhstn58

I could not have stated it better than SilverShadow why I waited until this week to convert from the Tivos to the HR-20s. The NFL sports package is the only reason I still contract with D*. Sunday Ticket will be brutal without being able to flip around various games on the 2nd tuner while watching my Stillerz on the 1st.


----------



## MikeR7

jhstn58 said:


> I could not have stated it better than SilverShadow why I waited until this week to convert from the Tivos to the HR-20s. The NFL sports package is the only reason I still contract with D*. Sunday Ticket will be brutal without being able to flip around various games on the 2nd tuner while watching my Stillerz on the 1st.


I guess I still don't understand. I'll watch a Twins game live, pause it, surf around other games or shows and go back to the Twins game and it picks up where I left off. It works fine.


----------



## jaywdetroit

SilverShadow said:


> Anyways, just my two cents...
> 
> NFL Sunday Ticket is a registered trademark of the National Football League and its affiliates.
> DirecTV is a trademark or registered trademark of DirecTV, Inc.
> TiVo and the TiVo logo are registered trademarks of TiVo Inc. or its subsidiaries.


Wow. To reiterate and agree, that was a great first post. Welcome to DBSTalk.

It's well thought out opinions like this, that make DBSTalk such a great Community.

I do think you should reconsider leaving D*, though I completely agree and sympathize with your attitude here.

Why don't you do as many enthusiasts have done here at DBSTalk? Keep your DLB Tivo connected to the same TV with your HR20, and cache games on it?

Or - some here even have two HR20's connected to their main TV. Now - I agree with you that this is a VERY POOR substitute for DLB, but I think we have established that the DLB community is not large enough to effect the pocket books of D*. They know this, and many of us dread, but accept it.

So if you walk away, you are going to miss out on a great piece of hardware (the HR20) and of course, you lose your Sunday Ticket (ST).

One thing I will say though - Someone at D* read your post. So whatever you decide to do, it was well worth your time.

Thanks for your contribution!


----------



## christo76

MikeR7 said:


> I guess I still don't understand. I'll watch a Twins game live, pause it, surf around other games or shows and go back to the Twins game and it picks up where I left off. It works fine.


So lets say you switch to a second game and want to see what will happen in the next 5-10 minutes, but right now its either really slow or commercial. Do you record it? Do you simply leave it on that channel, go back to Twins and in 5-10 min come back and rewind, without looking at the score to ruin it? If you record it, what do you do when you want to surf to a third game... stop the record, change channel and after the game remember to erase the 2 or 3 or 8 or more items you recorded for short periods? Yes its possible, but its a hassle.

Football is a better example because (especially with ST) you can watch 1 game, then when you get a red zone alert, change the 2nd tuner to that game and pause it, rather than sit and wait and hope. And if a second/better alert is up, change to that quickly. Sometimes a red zone means its minutes before any meaningful action, other times its instant. Being able to get to that game right away, w/o having to deal with the HR20 asking you if you want to keep or delete the game you just had on, could easily mean missing a great play and hoping ESPN will show highlights (which is never as good as seeing it live).


----------



## MikeR7

christo76 said:


> So lets say you switch to a second game and want to see what will happen in the next 5-10 minutes, but right now its either really slow or commercial. Do you record it? Do you simply leave it on that channel, go back to Twins and in 5-10 min come back and rewind, without looking at the score to ruin it? If you record it, what do you do when you want to surf to a third game... stop the record, change channel and after the game remember to erase the 2 or 3 or 8 or more items you recorded for short periods? Yes its possible, but its a hassle.
> 
> Football is a better example because (especially with ST) you can watch 1 game, then when you get a red zone alert, change the 2nd tuner to that game and pause it, rather than sit and wait and hope. And if a second/better alert is up, change to that quickly. Sometimes a red zone means its minutes before any meaningful action, other times its instant. Being able to get to that game right away, w/o having to deal with the HR20 asking you if you want to keep or delete the game you just had on, could easily mean missing a great play and hoping ESPN will show highlights (which is never as good as seeing it live).


Oh, I see where you are coming from now. I don't watch sports that way. Do you think a lot of people do? I know there are quite a few here from all of the postings on it, but it must be a pretty small % of ST viewers. I guess I agree with Jay, not enough people could threaten to cancel ST and/or their DIRECTV service to really affect their direction with the HR20 as of now.

What I plan on doing is adding a second HR20 downstairs in my rec room in parallel with the one there now. That gives me the capability of recording and watching 4 games at once there. I don't really need to watch all live(except the Vikings). I'm not really one that has to be surprised with every turn in the scoreboard. I just like watching as much football as I can. I can also record at least one more game upstairs(my honey has to have one tuner to watch I guess). Anyway, I feel badly for you guys that have the DLB addiction. Wish there was something I could do to help.

Oh, I've had one more thought on this issue. I see many DLB addicts throwing negative comments DIRECTV'S way on this issue. I don't know about you but when somebody wants something from me, it is far better to take a more positive approach towards me on the issue, than being negative. The more negative the approach the more I am likely to turn a deaf ear. I think most companies and people are that way by nature. Just a thought. Why they haven't responded with some kind of "official" answer on the issue does puzzle me though.


----------



## cygnusloop

MikeR7 said:


> ... I see many DLB addicts throwing negative comments DIRECTV'S way on this issue. I don't know about you but when somebody wants something from me, it is far better to take a more positive approach towards me on the issue, than being negative. The more negative the approach the more I am likely to turn a deaf ear. I think most companies and people are that way by nature. Just a thought. Why they haven't responded with some kind of "official" answer on the issue does puzzle me though.


I think you are absolutely right, Mike. _More flies with honey, than with vinegar_. I also think you hit the nail on the head with your statement about the fact that there hasn't been an "official" reason given for the lack of DLB. I, too, have been puzzled by that. It has been insinuated that there is, in fact, a good reason, but D* has chosen not to divulge it here. It is, I think, this lack of communication on _this one issue_ that generates a great deal of frustration on the part of many here, which in turn leads to negative posts and comments.

There has been an amazing amount of communication and feedback with D* on many, many other issues and new features, yet, on this one we remain in the dark. Maybe one day, it will all be clear. :shrug:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cygnusloop said:


> Maybe one day, it will all be clear. :shrug:


Yes... one day it will be clear.


----------



## MikeR7

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... one day it will be clear.


When we all get to heaven? Or on Sept 15th?:lol:


----------



## jaywdetroit

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... one day it will be clear.


And if someone forced you to gamble on when that day might be....

:lol:


----------



## raott

jaywdetroit said:


> And if someone forced you to gamble on when that day might be....
> 
> :lol:


If I was betting, my guess is the day VOD launches.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> If I was betting, my guess is the day VOD launches.


Keep guessing


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> Keep guessing


Most likely when they release the 2nd Generation HR20.


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> Keep guessing


on my birthday?


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> Keep guessing


It seems like every time the dialog in this thread is discussing the DLB issues in an intelligent manner someone wants to play games.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> It seems like every time the dialog in this thread is discussing the DLB issues in an intelligent manner someone wants to play games.


Yawn... seriously now... 
Someone guessed at a date... and I told them to keep guessing...

Sorry sorry that you didn't giggle....


----------



## Zias

I have been a customer with DirecTv since the whole USSB thing and have to say, I am seriously considering leaving DirecTv.

This relationship has been a good one. We have laughed together, cried together, shared unforgettable moments together.

As my family and I make the jump to HD we are left with no choice at DTV but a non-dual live buffer DVR. This has to be THE MOST important Tivo feature in our household. I am willing to change many habits and sacrifice a few things here and the, but the lack of DLB may be the end of this relationship.

I guess I have taken for granted this feature every day and now that I am faced with losing it, I cringe. Getting less HD channels, losing the Boomerang channel, and having to deal with the Devil, that is comcast, may be our only choice.

Seriously, the fact that this core feature is not present on DTVs DVR is beyond comprehension. I would be happy to hear a good solid reason as to why this is not on the DVR.

This decision to potentially leave DTV is not easy. I have come to DBS to see if I can find more reasons to stay with DirecTv than move on to Satan's Cable Provider (comcast). 

I am crying out for help. Please DirecTv, save me. Don't let me sell my soul!!!!!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Zias said:


> I am crying out for help. Please DirecTv, save me. Don't let me sell my soul!!!!!!


In all seriousness... If DLB is that important to you... 
Time to leave...

DLB is not in active development, there several other things they are working on for the system, before they even come back to the topic of DLB.

So if DLB and watching two live programs is that tantamount to your enjoyment of your DVR....

Time to switch.


----------



## MikeR7

Zias said:


> I have been a customer with DirecTv since the whole USSB thing and have to say, I am seriously considering leaving DirecTv.
> 
> This relationship has been a good one. We have laughed together, cried together, shared unforgettable moments together.
> 
> As my family and I make the jump to HD we are left with no choice at DTV but a non-dual live buffer DVR. This has to be THE MOST important Tivo feature in our household. I am willing to change many habits and sacrifice a few things here and the, but the lack of DLB may be the end of this relationship.
> 
> I guess I have taken for granted this feature every day and now that I am faced with losing it, I cringe. Getting less HD channels, losing the Boomerang channel, and having to deal with the Devil, that is comcast, may be our only choice.
> 
> Seriously, the fact that this core feature is not present on DTVs DVR is beyond comprehension. I would be happy to hear a good solid reason as to why this is not on the DVR.
> 
> This decision to potentially leave DTV is not easy. I have come to DBS to see if I can find more reasons to stay with DirecTv than move on to Satan's Cable Provider (comcast).
> 
> I am crying out for help. Please DirecTv, save me. Don't let me sell my soul!!!!!!


Yikes man! Get a grip. Better yet, get an HR20 and use it for awhile. You'll get used to it, and then you'll have 100 HD channels. It won't kill you, and best of all you don't have to go to hell.:lol:


----------



## Gill Bates

Earl Bonovich said:


> In all seriousness... If DLB is that important to you...
> Time to leave...
> 
> DLB is not in active development, there several other things they are working on for the system, before they even come back to the topic of DLB.
> 
> So if DLB and watching two live programs is that tantamount to your enjoyment of your DVR....
> 
> Time to switch.


This will be my first football season with the HR20 and will have to weigh the enjoyment gained by watching in HD vs. the loss of not being able to watch two games at once.

I know I could watch one and record another, but the only way to do that would be to mask off the top and bottom of the screen to not see the score of the other and mute the volume to keep from hearing the score, yes I'm in the if you know who won what is the point of watching it camp. To me knowing who won ruins the pleasure of watching the other game altogether.

I'm already bothered by the inability to turn off the FFx1 auto correction for baseball, I was turning auto correct off at the start of a game and turning it back on after, prior to the latest CE that is.

I've been with D* since the Primstar days and paid thru the nose for a DSR6000 when they first became available, believe me I was turning blue waiting for them to turn on the second tuner. Since then I haven't looked back

I seriously hope that things change in the future or I find I can live with football without DLB.

I guess I could watch football on one of my other duel tuner boxes but that's so SD.

I really, really, really hope I'm not disappointed enough to take your advice. Oh and, did I say really?


----------



## Que

Zias said:


> I have been a customer with DirecTv since the whole USSB thing and have to say, I am seriously considering leaving DirecTv.
> 
> This relationship has been a good one. We have laughed together, cried together, shared unforgettable moments together.
> 
> As my family and I make the jump to HD we are left with no choice at DTV but a non-dual live buffer DVR. This has to be THE MOST important Tivo feature in our household. I am willing to change many habits and sacrifice a few things here and the, but the lack of DLB may be the end of this relationship.
> 
> I guess I have taken for granted this feature every day and now that I am faced with losing it, I cringe. Getting less HD channels, losing the Boomerang channel, and having to deal with the Devil, that is comcast, may be our only choice.
> 
> Seriously, the fact that this core feature is not present on DTVs DVR is beyond comprehension. I would be happy to hear a good solid reason as to why this is not on the DVR.
> 
> This decision to potentially leave DTV is not easy. I have come to DBS to see if I can find more reasons to stay with DirecTv than move on to Satan's Cable Provider (comcast).
> 
> I am crying out for help. Please DirecTv, save me. Don't let me sell my soul!!!!!!


Welcome to the forum Zias!

If you feel that strongly about DLB please send one of the two letter to D* You can always get an HR10-250(Tivo) but, no telling how long until they change over to only MPEG4.


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## Que

A must have! 1628 75.51%
Don't really care about it. 124 5.75%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 404 18.74%
Voters: 2156. 

Replies 1,186 Views 66,687


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## mtnagel

Gill Bates said:


> I know I could watch one and record another, but the only way to do that would be to mask off the top and bottom of the screen to not see the score of the other and mute the volume to keep from hearing the score, yes I'm in the if you know who won what is the point of watching it camp. To me knowing who won ruins the pleasure of watching the other game altogether.


That's what I do, but instead of watching a complete game and then the other right after it, I switch back and forth. The chance of being spoiled is too great if you watch a complete game, so that's why I switch back and forth

How does DLB help you from having the score spoiled?


----------



## anubys

I have kept my HR10-250 right next to the new HR20 for two reasons:

1. each act as a backup to the other since I don't find either as 100% reliable.
2. Football. I will have DLB on the HR10-250 plus at least one other game going on the HR20...I'm looking at this season as one where I will have TLB, not just DLB


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> In all seriousness... If DLB is that important to you...
> Time to leave...
> 
> DLB is not in active development, there several other things they are working on for the system, before they even come back to the topic of DLB.
> 
> So if DLB and watching two live programs is that tantamount to your enjoyment of your DVR....
> 
> Time to switch.


If DLB is not activated before my commitment expires, you can count on it.


----------



## christo76

Leaving DirecTV doesn't make much sense to me. I have my time in with D and know more about what I can do when I have issues, vs dealing with cable outages or lower quality, which happened a lot at my house before I bought it and my brother lived there. Granted, I would then be able to dump DSL which has been equally crap, but that does not outweigh TV pleasure.

I have to believe that D will look at DLB again. They have been very good at dealing with our issues, and this is obviously a hot one. Like Earl said, they have other things they are working on and have to get done before they can look at it.

I see it as, they have a couple "A" teams that are working on the big items, i.e. VOD, Media stuff (assume you need this for VOD) and possibly MRV. They have "B" teams that work on some smaller things, like tweaks and auto-correction... I assume DLB would be a big enough change for them that they need their "A" teams on it and they won't be available until all other items planned for them are done.

I don't know how long their list is, but I hope that getting VOD done will be a large chunk of it.


----------



## jaywdetroit

christo76 said:


> Leaving DirecTV doesn't make much sense to me. I have my time in with D and know more about what I can do when I have issues, vs dealing with cable outages or lower quality, which happened a lot at my house before I bought it and my brother lived there. Granted, I would then be able to dump DSL which has been equally crap, but that does not outweigh TV pleasure.
> 
> I have to believe that D will look at DLB again. They have been very good at dealing with our issues, and this is obviously a hot one. Like Earl said, they have other things they are working on and have to get done before they can look at it.
> 
> I see it as, they have a couple "A" teams that are working on the big items, i.e. VOD, Media stuff (assume you need this for VOD) and possibly MRV. They have "B" teams that work on some smaller things, like tweaks and auto-correction... I assume DLB would be a big enough change for them that they need their "A" teams on it and they won't be available until all other items planned for them are done.
> 
> I don't know how long their list is, but I hope that getting VOD done will be a large chunk of it.


Well put. I agree with this. I would not be at all surprised to find out that D* attempted to implement DLB, failed, and shelved it indefinitely in favor of other features that are more likely to bring in additional revenue. Once those are implemented... Who knows what will happen. The HR21? With DLB? Or perhaps the HR30 featuring Tivo? This is all speculation - but speculation is fun!!!!

I really miss DLB. And it is a hot issue for me. But faced with the prospect of Comcast, I turn around with my tail between my legs and run away. If DLB is that important to you, you fall into the category mentioned on the previous page - get a second HR20 - or a HR10.

But Comcast? good luck to you. you'll need it.


----------



## jaywdetroit

anubys said:


> I have kept my HR10-250 right next to the new HR20 for two reasons:
> 
> 1. each act as a backup to the other since I don't find either as 100% reliable.
> 2. Football. I will have DLB on the HR10-250 plus at least one other game going on the HR20...I'm looking at this season as one where I will have TLB, not just DLB


I think Tom still has you beat -- QLB i do believe.

Do I hear PLB????

EDIT: And how many replays do you need to see of Favre throwing an interception anyway?


----------



## Que

mtnagel said:


> How does DLB help you from having the score spoiled?


Because the pause point works, at least on the HR10.



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


----------



## Gill Bates

mtnagel said:


> That's what I do, but instead of watching a complete game and then the other right after it, I switch back and forth. The chance of being spoiled is too great if you watch a complete game, so that's why I switch back and forth
> 
> How does DLB help you from having the score spoiled?


I know what you are asking, it doesn't really, but with the ability to do a one button toggle I can stay fairly current on both games. Of course if one game is more important to me or the action is intense I concentrate my time on that one.

With a SLB system if one of the games becomes a drag and I want to bail and move on to another it opens a whole new can of worms when the one you want to dump is the one being recorded.

"Sigh", to me from the consumer standpoint it would just be so much easier to have DLB.

I understand where D* is coming from with new features that can be marketed to gain new customers in the short term, but you have to keep them happy if you don't want them to churn in the long term.

Which brings me to my perception of new D* marketing plan, say anything do anything to get them as customers with the included anti-churn two year commitment and financial penalty, just so much as sneeze when on the phone with them and clock starts over. Has that replaced keeping customers happy as the new way to prevent churn? "WE OWN YOU, BWHAHAHAHAHA&#8230;"

Sorry if this turned into a rant but I had to get it off my chest, I feel better now.


----------



## anubys

Gill Bates said:


> Which brings me to my perception of new D* marketing plan, say anything do anything to get them as customers with the included anti-churn two year commitment and financial penalty, just so much as sneeze when on the phone with them and clock starts over. Has that replaced keeping customers happy as the new way to prevent churn? "WE OWN YOU, BWHAHAHAHAHA&#8230;"
> 
> Sorry if this turned into a rant but I had to get it off my chest, I feel better now.


as I've said before, the two-year thing means nothing to me...any time I want to leave DirecTV, I will.

I will call my credit card company and tell them to not allow payments from DirecTV. If my credit card refuses, I cancel my card.

DirecTV can sue me for the money, I guess, but since I didn't sign anything, I wish them good luck collecting...

and before anyone calls me in breach of a verbal contract, part of the contract is DirecTV keeping me happy (with equipment and programming)...I always mention that on the phone...


----------



## mtnagel

Que said:


> Because the pause point works, at least on the HR10.
> 
> 
> 
> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.
Click to expand...

HUH? This works perfectly on the HR20 as it's what I did last year when both my teams were on at the same time (although I don't usually flip that much, but at least several times in each game). The pause point works with the HR20.

I've said it before, but I guess it bears repeating. If you only want to flip around between 2 channels AND you have the space to record both, then you can do that on the HR20 without DLB and all it takes is one extra button press.


----------



## mtnagel

Gill Bates said:


> I know what you are asking, it doesn't really, but with the ability to do a one button toggle I can stay fairly current on both games. Of course if one game is more important to me or the action is intense I concentrate my time on that one.
> 
> With a SLB system if one of the games becomes a drag and I want to bail and move on to another it opens a whole new can of worms when the one you want to dump is the one being recorded.


I haven't used a tivo in awhile, but don't you have to pause before you switch tuners or it won't keep your place? So that's actually 2 presses. Not to be nit picky, but it's 3 on the HR20 after you set them up to record. Of course, if you want to jump around to more than 2 channels, this becomes problematic with having to record everything, so I can kind of understand the need for DLB there, but if it were me and I wanted to watch 3 or 4 games, I'd buy another reciever so I could have 4 tuners and record 4 complete games, but that's just me.


----------



## jheda

Matt, for the record describe the steps u take toggling between the 2, (ie, pause, exit etc.especially if different then those posted on tip and tricks..

thx!



mtnagel said:


> HUH? This works perfectly on the HR20 as it's what I did last year when both my teams were on at the same time (although I don't usually flip that much, but at least several times in each game). The pause point works with the HR20.
> 
> I've said it before, but I guess it bears repeating. If you only want to flip around between 2 channels AND you have the space to record both, then you can do that on the HR20 without DLB and all it takes is one extra button press.


----------



## tiger2005

jaywdetroit said:


> Well put. I agree with this. I would not be at all surprised to find out that D* attempted to implement DLB, failed, and shelved it indefinitely in favor of other features that are more likely to bring in additional revenue. Once those are implemented... Who knows what will happen. The HR21? With DLB? Or perhaps the HR30 featuring Tivo? This is all speculation - but speculation is fun!!!!
> 
> I really miss DLB. And it is a hot issue for me. But faced with the prospect of Comcast, I turn around with my tail between my legs and run away. If DLB is that important to you, you fall into the category mentioned on the previous page - get a second HR20 - or a HR10.
> 
> But Comcast? good luck to you. you'll need it.


I guess I'm one of the lucky few that has an option other than Comcast. With D*'s continued inability to implement DLB, I feel as if I'll be moving to FiOS when they go live before the year is out. D*'s 'future lead' in the HD channel realm will be short-lived so I don't feel that is a large enough reason for me to stay. DLB AND HD are where its at in my house. If D* wants me to stay on as a customer, those are my requirements. If not, my $$$ go elsewhere. Just my two cents...


----------



## MikeR7

tiger2005 said:


> I guess I'm one of the lucky few that has an option other than Comcast. With D*'s continued inability to implement DLB, I feel as if I'll be moving to FiOS when they go live before the year is out. D*'s 'future lead' in the HD channel realm will be short-lived so I don't feel that is a large enough reason for me to stay. DLB AND HD are where its at in my house. If D* wants me to stay on as a customer, those are my requirements. If not, my $$$ go elsewhere. Just my two cents...


:wave:Bye Bye


----------



## sjso395

:beatdeadhorse: The poll on the 1st page speaks for itself. Over 1600 people for DLB. If D* still ignores that and chooses to pursue other things, that tells me that they dont have customers in their priorities and wish to do their own things they feel are neccesary. I'm not leaving just yet, but I am definetly taking a wait and see approach.


----------



## mtnagel

jheda said:


> Matt, for the record describe the steps u take toggling between the 2, (ie, pause, exit etc.especially if different then those posted on tip and tricks..
> 
> thx!


I don't do it quite like the tips and tricks guide so this is what I do:

1. Record both programs
2. Hit LIST and scroll to the one you want to watch first and press PLAY (since they are both recording, one will be the first listing and the other will be the second).
3. When you want to switch, hit STOP - this will bring you back to the list with the recording you were just watching highlighted.
4. Depending on which you were just watching, either move up or down one to highlight the other program and press PLAY.
5. To switch, goto 3.

Or you can use PAUSE and LIST. I find this to be better when you are switching between two things that you don't want to be spoiled (like sports) because it will pause the picture in list. With STOP, the picture in list shows one of the recordings at live.

So, with Tivo, you still have to get the 2 channels set up and buffering, so that's similar to setting up the recordings. So ignoring the setup, to switch with tivo, you always have to use pause then down arrow (2 presses). To switch with the HR20, you can use STOP, move highlighting up or down, then PLAY (3 presses). Or, using the PAUSE then LIST, it's either 3 or 4 presses depending on if you are switching between the first or second recording in your list.

Again, I realize this only works when you want to jump between 2 shows and you have the space to record. No, it's not exactly the same as a Tivo, but it works.


----------



## bonscott87

Matt, once you get your two recordings going and you have watched each one for a few seconds, to switch between then can't you just hit the PREV button?


----------



## Gill Bates

mtnagel said:


> I don't do it quite like the tips and tricks guide so this is what I do:
> 
> 1. Record both programs
> 2. Hit LIST and scroll to the one you want to watch first and press PLAY (since they are both recording, one will be the first listing and the other will be the second).
> 3. When you want to switch, hit STOP - this will bring you back to the list with the recording you were just watching highlighted.
> 4. Depending on which you were just watching, either move up or down one to highlight the other program and press PLAY.
> 5. To switch, goto 3.
> 
> Or you can use PAUSE and LIST. I find this to be better when you are switching between two things that you don't want to be spoiled (like sports) because it will pause the picture in list. With STOP, the picture in list shows one of the recordings at live.
> 
> So, with Tivo, you still have to get the 2 channels set up and buffering, so that's similar to setting up the recordings. So ignoring the setup, to switch with tivo, you always have to use pause then down arrow (2 presses). To switch with the HR20, you can use STOP, move highlighting up or down, then PLAY (3 presses). Or, using the PAUSE then LIST, it's either 3 or 4 presses depending on if you are switching between the first or second recording in your list.
> 
> Again, I realize this only works when you want to jump between 2 shows and you have the space to record. No, it's not exactly the same as a Tivo, but it works.


I currently have two recordings in progress as I write this and tried your method of using the stop button and that jumped me to the show description page with one of the games running in the tattle-tale window and the audio blabbing the current score several innings ahead of where I was watching. So that doesn't work for me. My box is a -700, are our boxes different?

The pause-list-toggle-play sequence does work and may be a viable work around for me.

Thanks for the suggestions and I'll see how it goes this fall.


----------



## Gill Bates

bonscott87 said:


> Matt, once you get your two recordings going and you have watched each one for a few seconds, to switch between then can't you just hit the PREV button?


Scott,

I tried the previous button after I got the pause-list-toggle-play sequence going and all it did was bounce me out to live TV.


----------



## mtnagel

bonscott87 said:


> Matt, once you get your two recordings going and you have watched each one for a few seconds, to switch between then can't you just hit the PREV button?


I never could get the previous button to work. If you can, give me exact steps to reproduce and I'll try it.



Gill Bates said:


> I currently have two recordings in progress as I write this and tried your method of using the stop button and that jumped me to the show description page with one of the games running in the tattle-tale window and the audio blabbing the current score several innings ahead of where I was watching. So that doesn't work for me. My box is a -700, are our boxes different?
> 
> The pause-list-toggle-play sequence does work and may be a viable work around for me.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions and I'll see how it goes this fall.


The reason it didn't work in the first paragraph was that you must have highlighted the show and pressed SELECT (and then SELECT on the "play" listing) to start playing the recording. You should highlight the show and pres PLAY, not SELECT. I assume you can do it with SELECT (though I never do it that way), but I guess it's 1 more click. As long as you do that (use the PLAY button), you can use the STOP button, but then you get the tattle tale window (I LOVE that name BTW). With the pause-list-toggle-play sequence as you call it, that should pause the picture in list so you don't get spoiled.


----------



## upgrade-itis

I've had the box for a week and I miss the DLB's. Other than that a good unit. The RF I'm using on the second HR20-100 unit is lousy.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

upgrade-itis said:


> I've had the box for a week and I miss the DLB's. Other than that a good unit. The RF I'm using on the second HR20-100 unit is lousy.


Did you install the antenna on the HR20-100 ?


----------



## fasTLane

I thought that the HR20 is incapable of two live buffers like the Tivo even if they wanted to offer it. Is this true?


----------



## bonscott87

mtnagel said:


> I never could get the previous button to work. If you can, give me exact steps to reproduce and I'll try it.


I've only tried it once to test in a CE but from what I remember I did (and from posts I've seen others do) is that you pull up the list and play your first program.
Pause.
Pull up list and play your second program.
Pause.
Now hit PREV and it will switch between the two.

Like I said, I only did it once and didn't think it was that big of a deal. Maybe it doesn't work anymore or whatnot. Hopefully someone else that uses it often will pop in and post. Might also be in the Tips and Tricks or Tivo survival guide documents.


----------



## puffnstuff

bonscott87 said:


> I've only tried it once to test in a CE but from what I remember I did (and from posts I've seen others do) is that you pull up the list and play your first program.
> Pause.
> Pull up list and play your second program.
> Pause.
> Now hit PREV and it will switch between the two.
> 
> Like I said, I only did it once and didn't think it was that big of a deal. Maybe it doesn't work anymore or whatnot. Hopefully someone else that uses it often will pop in and post. Might also be in the Tips and Tricks or Tivo survival guide documents.


I don't really like it but I ue it all the time . Repeat I really really don't like it . But it does work , just they way you said . Still it's a poor substitute . Never mine I do it on live tv and one recorded I haven't ever got it to work with 2 recorded shows .


----------



## Zias

Sad thing is, I would be willing to pay more for a HR20 with dual buffer. They are leaving money on the table and with people leaving, they are actually leaving it in the garbage.

I went again last night and played with the HR20 and found the work arounds to be rediculous.

As stated before, the poll here speaks for itself. DTV is being stupid and alienating customers. They could move towards a best of breed solution but they refuse. They can give their customers desired features yet they don't. 

Still, I have yet to hear a solid reason why they do not/will not provide this VERY desired feature.


----------



## sgnhaf

Chuck584 said:


> The HR20 does record two streams at once. You can prove it to yourself by recording two channels at once.
> 
> The hardware is capable of supporting DLB.
> 
> It's a software issue.
> 
> According to Earl, DLB isn't in active development. To me, that is a sad comment on D* commitment to the HR20.


I ahve done some research, it records 2 streams at once, but can not D LIVE B them because the processor and Ram Is insuffecient for the "behind the scenes" thins that go on during DLB

this info came from an enginer from an electronic company


----------



## MikeR

sgnhaf said:


> I ahve done some research, it records 2 streams at once, but can not D LIVE B them because the processor and Ram Is insuffecient for the "behind the scenes" thins that go on during DLB
> 
> this info came from an enginer from an electronic company


DLBs is not a pressing issue for me, and I could wait for Earl to answer, but this is misinformation. Check out the S2 or S3 processors/RAM.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> In all seriousness... If DLB is that important to you...
> Time to leave...
> 
> DLB is not in active development, there several other things they are working on for the system, before they even come back to the topic of DLB.
> 
> So if DLB and watching two live programs is that tantamount to your enjoyment of your DVR....
> 
> Time to switch.


That's what alot of people are doing when FIOS rolls into town. You've read the article. D* takes a bigger hit percentage wise than cable or DISH.

Doesn't that tell you something?

When FIOS completes the agreement with our local council, I'm there in a hot second.

D* can develop what they want, in the time frame they want. If they don't listen to customers, they'll soon be serving new bugs to no one.

Meanwhile I have TiVo HD with Comcast while I wait for 100 channels of HD. If I can't tune 100 channels by year's end with my current contract, D* will be in breach two promises by their sales. 1) DLB by football season and 2) 100 HD channels on my current level of service by 1 January 2008.


----------



## stogie5150

Chuck584 said:


> If I can't tune 100 channels by year's end with my current contract, D* will be in breach two promises by their sales. 1) DLB by football season and 2) 100 HD channels on my current level of service by 1 January 2008.


:soapbox:

:rant:

You might as well put your pants on then. Because D* has no intention of giving us a DVR as good as TIVO was in basic operation. Oh sure, you'll have VOD, networking, and all kinds of money makers for D*, but a great, stable DVR like TIVO was when they told us we needed their new HR20, I do not think you'll ever see.
A LOT of us would be gone already given a better choice. Buy sadly where I live its either Charter, D*, or E*. Choose your poison. Would you rather be shot, stabbed, or hung? All three ate up with HDLITE, less that great DVR's, and inattentive CS.

DLB? We've asked Earl why not, he said he can't tell us. So we are forced to speculate. I'd be happy if I really knew WHY. If almost every other platform supports it why can't this walking-on-water-HR20-that-everyone-on-DBSTalk-raves-about do it? Is it a hardware issue? Is it an advertiser issue? Is it an inability to code it issue?
Just be HONEST with us. Don't urinate down my back and call it rain. We can handle the truth, TELL US.

I am VERY interested in the new owners position on this. They have a chance to make a LOT of customers happy if they FIX this issue and get us something that we can reccomend to friends again. I've turned a lot of folks on to D* since 1996. No more. Since the HR20 I keep my trap shut.

Now, if you want a 100 channels of stretch-o-vision hd lite, D* will have you covered on that I am pretty confident. The new satellite will give them the ablity to downrezz and squeeze mpeg4 so much they'll fit 500 channels on the two satellites, should they become available. Hey, but you'll only pay 10 bucks a month for it, no price increase. :lol:

:rant:


----------



## bonscott87

Chuck584 said:


> D* can develop what they want, in the time frame they want. If they don't listen to customers, they'll soon be serving new bugs to no one.


The thing is that people on this forum get all worked up over DLB. But it's just like the "DirecTV is going to die without Tivo argument". The vast majority of people don't even have a DVR. They will use whatever their provider gives them. Thus DLB isn't even a feature they know about. Heck, most of the Tivo owners I know didn't even know they could switch between tuners until I asked them about it. Joe Sixpack just doesn't know or care about DLB.

There were at it's peak about 250K HR10 owners. There are a LOT more HR20s out there already. To think all 250K are leaving because of no DLB is not thinking right. There has been no mass exodus of people with the R15 which has no DLB either and it's been out for 2 years. DirecTV isn't targeting for the 250K HR10 owners, they have the 15+ *million* that don't have an HD DVR in their sights. In the conference call a few days ago they talked about how many current HD users have upgraded to the new HD DVR and how many new HD customers they are signing up at a record pace. The HR10 owners sadly just don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Most aren't going anywhere and the few thousand that might leave won't even be noticed.

Look, I hope they add DLB for everyone even if it's not something I'd use much if at all. But all the "gloom and doom" that DirecTV is going to lose customers by the tens of thousands simply because of no DLB is not smart thinking. Just not going to happen.

And as for FIOS, most people can't get FIOS and most people still won't have FIOS as an option 10 years from now. To think FIOS is going to come and doom DirecTV is again, shortsighted and not thinking about the big picture.


----------



## MikeR7

OK, I've had enough. I've found a brand new H10-250 that I can get for $40. I want to experience DLB so I know what the fuss is all about. When it can't be used for HD, I'll just use it as an SD recorder. Should I do this?


----------



## The Phantom Ghost

MikeR7 said:


> OK, I've had enough. I've found a brand new H10-250 that I can get for $40. I want to experience DLB so I know what the fuss is all about. When it can't be used for HD, I'll just use it as an SD recorder. Should I do this?


Sounds like a decent deal to me. Me personally, I wouldn't because I've gotten to the point were I think the Tivo is just too slow for me. I'm just used to the HR20 now.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

MikeR7 said:


> OK, I've had enough. I've found a brand new H10-250 that I can get for $40. I want to experience DLB so I know what the fuss is all about. When it can't be used for HD, I'll just use it as an SD recorder. Should I do this?


Where at, Goodwill? My friend found an SD model there for 7.00, it was listed for 14.00, but it was half off day.

Be careful though, he tried to activate it and they wouldn't let him set up a new Tivo account, they told him that they won't allow new Tivo's to be activated, that they only support current ones. He was offered an HR20 instead.


----------



## ShiningBengal

theratpatrol said:


> Where at, Goodwill? My friend found an SD model there for 7.00, it was listed for 14.00, but it was half off day.
> 
> Be careful though, he tried to activate it and they wouldn't let him set up a new Tivo account, they told him that they won't allow new Tivo's to be activated, that they only support current ones. He was offered an HR20 instead.


DirecTV will activate TiVo's on existing accounts. They will not activate a new account with owned equipment. It is the fact that it is owned, not leased, that is the problem.


----------



## sgnhaf

MikeR said:


> DLBs is not a pressing issue for me, and I could wait for Earl to answer, but this is misinformation. Check out the S2 or S3 processors/RAM.


is not misinformation, is true facts. ad ram and procesor are only 2 of the 4 componets in why the dlb is impossible on the hr20


----------



## sgnhaf

Strejcek said:


> DLB on HR20:beatdeadhorse:


and that is inexcusable. let us hope the HR21 IS DLB capable and it is fully implemneted.


----------



## MikeR

sgnhaf said:


> I ahve done some research, it records 2 streams at once, but can not D LIVE B them because the processor and *Ram Is insuffecient for* the "behind the scenes" thins that go on during DLB
> 
> this info came from an enginer from an electronic company





sgnhaf said:


> is not misinformation, is true facts. *ad ram and procesor are only 2 *of the 4 componets in why the dlb is impossible on the hr20


So...which is it??? Ram or not?

since the HR20 and Series3 both use the same 7038 and 7411 broadcomm chips. What else is there?


----------



## houskamp

sgnhaf said:


> is not misinformation, is true facts. ad ram and procesor are only 2 of the 4 componets in why the dlb is impossible on the hr20


I don't think anyone has said it's impossible.. just wasn't in the original plan and they have a lot to deal with already...


----------



## sgnhaf

MikeR said:


> since the HR20 and Series3 both use the same 7038 and 7411 broadcomm chips. What else is there?


"under the hood" where the hr20 uses it's resources. that is what makes DLB impossible.

It does not have enough resources put in the area where dlb would be needed.


----------



## sgnhaf

houskamp said:


> I don't think anyone has said it's impossible.. just wasn't in the original plan and they have a lot to deal with already...


IF dlb was possible hr20 (which is not) then switching it on, would have not caused more problems and would have actually helped.

AND would have not taken them away from improving the unit (time allocation)


----------



## MikeR

sgnhaf said:


> "under the hood" where the hr20 uses it's resources. that is what makes DLB impossible.
> 
> It does not have enough resources put in the area where dlb would be needed.


So now it is not a hardware problem? Hmmm...

It requires a small amount of processing memory to release the drive space for the 2nd buffer.


----------



## msmith198025

ok, does anyone have any real proof that it isnt possible besides saying it isnt? Im just curious, that would save people time in wanting it. Otherwise..


----------



## CCarncross

If you have some source, as in a URL, please post it.


----------



## msmith198025

CCarncross said:


> If you have some source, as in a URL, please post it.


+1


----------



## Tom Robertson

Anther thread hijacked into a DLB thread? DLB is trivial to prove as possible on the HR20. The HR20 can record two items simultaneously _and_ playback a third. DLB is even simpler on resources.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## sgnhaf

wrong tom, allowing dlb is over taxing, contact the maker of the -100 hr20 talk to some engineers, they will tell you the same (off the record)


----------



## carl6

sgnhaf,

The HR20 has a more powerful processor, and more memory, than any previous DirecTV DVR (Tivo or non). It certainly has the processing and memory capabilities necessary.

It was a design and business decision by DirecTV to not have DLB. They are reconsidering based on feedback, but the outlook is minimal at best. What is the real business risk (in terms of thousands or tens of thousands of lost customers) of not having DLB. Almost nonexistent. From a business perspective, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Carl


----------



## Tom Robertson

sgnhaf said:


> wrong tom, allowing dlb is over taxing, contact the maker of the -100 hr20 talk to some engineers, they will tell you the same (off the record)


Sorry, but you are buying BS in bulk and at high prices too! I am an engineer, written a number of device drivers, a bit of embedded programming, operating system programming, etc. Recording two streams AND playback of a third is simpler than DLB. So whoever sold you the bill of goods was either: 1) totally incompetent or not an engineer at all, or 2) lying thru his/her teeth. Again, I'm sorry to say these things, but I get very frustrated at this type of BS where critical thinking flies out the window altogether.

Now if the statement was along the lines of "we can't get SLB to work reliably and DLB makes things magnitudes worse" (a vastly different statement), that I can completely agree with. If the resources are not carefully controlled to prevent race conditions and lockups (vastly different from overtaxing), then yes, DLB will make things go south very, very fast.

Ok rant mode is off again.
Cheers,
Tom


----------



## anubys

I thought that I read on this forum that the OTA tuner is better on the HR20 than the HR10...I recorded the OTA Redskins game on both the HR10 and the HR20 that are next to each other on my system...the HR20 pixelated the picture often as if there was a storm and the picture was off the SAT...the picture on the HR10 was perfect...

Edit: oops...posted this in the wrong thread...sorry!


----------



## jaywdetroit

Another DLB story...

Earl/Tom - Do the powers that be still look at this thread?

So my "wife" is at work and she over hears a conversation one of her co-workers is having about his new HD DVR from D*. 

Trying to feel cool - she says - oh yeah - you got one of those HR-20 "thingies". (She got cool chick points for this apparently.) 

Then he starts complaining about how he can't figure the thing out, he can't figure out how to switch to the other tuner. 

So now my "wife" is feeling really cool - because she gets to explain the whole DLB thing to this guy. And apparently, he was relieved, stating he thought he was "stupid" or something because he couldn't figure out how to flip tuners. 

I can't help but wonder how many silent voices there are out there feeling this same way...
1. They "expect" DLB to be there.
2. They are silent because they don't consider the fact it isn't there, they figure they haven't figured out how to make it work yet. (I was in this category in a way, except i can't keep my mouth shut.)


----------



## msmith198025

again, no proof other than because i heard or say so?


----------



## jlangner

I switched from the TIVO HD version which had it and to this day that is the main complant I get all the time from my wife. "Why did we get this, I liked the other one better. I could flip channels and rewind on it"


----------



## christo76

sgnhaf said:


> I ahve done some research, it records 2 streams at once, but can not D LIVE B them because the processor and Ram Is insuffecient for the "behind the scenes" thins that go on during DLB
> 
> this info came from an enginer from an electronic company


This is not true. It does maintain dual live buffers. We just can't access the 2nd one. It has been seen by several people on here.

Here is how I found it...

Tune to Channel A, start recording. Then change to Channel B. Leave it on Channel B for a while to let the other show record a bit. Then go into list and start watching the show recorded on channel A. When you reach the end, select to Delete Now. It will take you back to the List screen. Immediately press Guide and go to Channel A's listing. Select record on the current program (make sure its one that isn't just starting) REMEMBER... the live buffer has been on channel B this whole time. After you select record on the Channel A program in Guide, hit list and begin watching the new show. It should have recorded from the buffer. At least it has for me on 2 occasions durring baseball games when the recording ended, and Ihad to select the Post Game show to see the previous 30-45 minutes that got cut off.

This means it does maintain both buffers, but once you tune to a new channel (or previous channel) it clears out the buffer first.


----------



## sgnhaf

carl6 said:


> sgnhaf,
> 
> The HR20 has a more powerful processor, and more memory, than any previous DirecTV DVR (Tivo or non). It certainly has the processing and memory capabilities necessary.
> 
> It was a design and business decision by DirecTV to not have DLB. They are reconsidering based on feedback, but the outlook is minimal at best. What is the real business risk (in terms of thousands or tens of thousands of lost customers) of not having DLB. Almost nonexistent. From a business perspective, I wouldn't hold my breath.
> 
> Carl


wrong, the hr2o is incapable because of the way resources are routed in the unit,

now the bsiness reason why directv has not implemeented dlb (if they had a dvr capable of it) they are trying everything to be not like tivo, which is not a smart descion,

they should implement all their features ( in a non-illegal way) and add tons more.

which then they could say .. tivo has less than us

then youd see no tivo people still wanting tivo


----------



## sgnhaf

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorry, but you are buying BS in bulk and at high prices too! I am an engineer, written a number of device drivers, a bit of embedded programming, operating system programming, etc. Recording two streams AND playback of a third is simpler than DLB. So whoever sold you the bill of goods was either: 1) totally incompetent or not an engineer at all, or 2) lying thru his/her teeth. Again, I'm sorry to say these things, but I get very frustrated at this type of BS where critical thinking flies out the window altogether.
> 
> Now if the statement was along the lines of "we can't get SLB to work reliably and DLB makes things magnitudes worse" (a vastly different statement), that I can completely agree with. If the resources are not carefully controlled to prevent race conditions and lockups (vastly different from overtaxing), then yes, DLB will make things go south very, very fast.
> 
> Ok rant mode is off again.
> Cheers,
> Tom


i would not call head engineers bull in bulk of major electronic makers.

and the lock-ups you are touching the surface of why the hr20 and r15 are incapable of dlb,

afterall they was tested and ...............


----------



## Tom Robertson

sgnhaf said:


> i would not call head engineers bull in bulk of major electronic makers.
> 
> and the lock-ups you are touching the surface of why the hr20 and r15 are incapable of dlb,
> 
> afterall they was tested and ...............


I can and I will, if that is who you've really talked to. Yes, bad software can make things not work. That is why it is called bad software. But that is not what I'm calling the HR20 software. It CAN DO DLB. At most it might need a bit more tuning and cleanup. At least, it might just need someone to turn DLB on again.

Think about how much work there is recording two items and playing back a third. Think about how much less there would be just buffering two live streams. In other words, think for yourself with the evidence you have right in front of you. Anyone telling you the HR20 is not capable of DLB is wrong. There is even a work around (ugly as it is.) So it must be possible.

And if you have contacts at -100, have them can the "engineer" you're talking to and have them hire me. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Que

jlangner said:


> I switched from the TIVO HD version which had it and to this day that is the main complant I get all the time from my wife. "Why did we get this, I liked the other one better. I could flip channels and rewind on it"


Welcome to the forum jlanger! If you and your wife feel strongly about DLB. You can copy and paste one of the letters and mail it out.

I think with time... maybe a long time. DLB will come to the HR20. Right now I'm sticking with the HR10 until I can't use it anymore or HR20 gets DLB.



Que said:


> Click View post above ^


----------



## bradfjoh

I haven't seen this new wish list link posted in this thread... But be sure to add your thoughts to the wish list so that there is more evidence that DLB is important...

Copied from another *thread*: 
Version 3 of the WISH LIST survey may be found here: *TAKE THE WISH LIST SURVEY*


----------



## Rocker07

jaywdetroit said:


> Another DLB story...
> 
> Earl/Tom - Do the powers that be still look at this thread?
> 
> So my "wife" is at work and she over hears a conversation one of her co-workers is having about his new HD DVR from D*.
> 
> Trying to feel cool - she says - oh yeah - you got one of those HR-20 "thingies". (She got cool chick points for this apparently.)
> 
> Then he starts complaining about how he can't figure the thing out, he can't figure out how to switch to the other tuner.
> 
> So now my "wife" is feeling really cool - because she gets to explain the whole DLB thing to this guy. And apparently, he was relieved, stating he thought he was "stupid" or something because he couldn't figure out how to flip tuners.
> 
> I can't help but wonder how many silent voices there are out there feeling this same way...
> 1. They "expect" DLB to be there.
> 2. They are silent because they don't consider the fact it isn't there, they figure they haven't figured out how to make it work yet. (I was in this category in a way, except i can't keep my mouth shut.)


Count me in as one of those "idiots" that just assumed that the HR20 would have DLBs. I remember thinking "I cannot F'N believe this" after spending several minutes pressing the down arrow.


----------



## ktk0117

(I didn't read this entire post, so if someone else suggested this, then just ignore me)

I would like to have dual buffers, but yet I also like the 90 min buffer. I think that if D* can ever add duals, then since the HR20 already has the one 90 min buffer, maybe they can make an option in the menu for having dual, or single buffers. 

It might require a reset to get it the way you want, but at least it would please everyone, and it would become a superior unit.


----------



## falken

Rocker07 said:


> Count me in as one of those "idiots" that just assumed that the HR20 would have DLBs. I remember thinking "I cannot F'N believe this" after spending several minutes pressing the down arrow.


I spent a good 20 min. trying to flip tuners when I got mine too. I knew it had two tuners... there had to be some way to switch between them! Joke was on me!


----------



## area

Tom Robertson said:


> I can and I will, if that is who you've really talked to. Yes, bad software can make things not work. That is why it is called bad software. But that is not what I'm calling the HR20 software. It CAN DO DLB. At most it might need a bit more tuning and cleanup. At least, it might just need someone to turn DLB on again.
> 
> Think about how much work there is recording two items and playing back a third. Think about how much less there would be just buffering two live streams. In other words, think for yourself with the evidence you have right in front of you. Anyone telling you the HR20 is not capable of DLB is wrong. There is even a work around (ugly as it is.) So it must be possible.
> 
> And if you have contacts at -100, have them can the "engineer" you're talking to and have them hire me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Amen brother. If it can record 2 and play a 3rd, everything works in HW to support DLB. Period. It is passing all of the information around that needs to be handled and, since almost all processes are I/O bound, it has satisfied the short pole in the tent. Switching between live buffers is merely a matter of changing iNode references, and since since you can change channels at will, all of the MPEG framing info is available in small time slices. To recap, all of the data need can be passed (biggest bottleneck), decoding streams are re-enterant, and the CPU can handle 3 simultaneous streams. Ergo, everything needed for DLB is in place, it is merely a case of doing the right thing in software.

For the record I am an engineer who does HW design, but I started life as a SW engineer before I saw the light.


----------



## dpd0961

I'm asking this question in all seriousness. What is the harm in DirecTV telling us why they choose not to implement this? 

We have been told many times that there IS a reason they are not doing this, and it will become clear to us all at some point. So, what is the big secret? Why can't we, the paying customers know? How about just telling us, IF you are planning on getting to it at some point? Is that giving us too much information?

I'm also a software engineer, and will not pretend to know the complexities involved in implementing DLB. What I do know is that the company that I work for would not just let our customers sway in the wind while we play keepaway with our little secret, or at the least give some kind of explanation on what is going on. I'm sure they know whether or not this can be done, I understand they don't want to give us the details on when/why, but how about just if they THINK it will be done? Throw us a bone. I don't believe customers that are spending the kind of money we are for this service are asking too much. Seems very arrogant to me. Just my opinion.


----------



## lman

dpd0961 said:


> I'm asking this question in all seriousness. What is the harm in DirecTV telling us why they choose not to implement this?
> 
> We have been told many times that there IS a reason they are not doing this, and it will become clear to us all at some point. So, what is the big secret? Why can't we, the paying customers know? How about just telling us, IF you are planning on getting to it at some point? Is that giving us too much information?
> 
> I'm also a software engineer, and will not pretend to know the complexities involved in implementing DLB. What I do know is that the company that I work for would not just let our customers sway in the wind while we play keepaway with our little secret, or at the least give some kind of explanation on what is going on. I'm sure they know whether or not this can be done, I understand they don't want to give us the details on when/why, but how about just if they THINK it will be done? Throw us a bone. I don't believe customers that are spending the kind of money we are for this service are asking too much. Seems very arrogant to me. Just my opinion.


Maybe they have no intention of implementing DLB and would rather string along their customers instead of losing them. I assumed the Hr20 had DLB when I purchased it. I was not happy when I learned that I had purchased an inferior product without DLB. I then learned from this website that it was possibly going to be added later. Now I wonder if this information was put out there to satisfy some upset customers.


----------



## ShiningBengal

dpd0961 said:


> I'm asking this question in all seriousness. What is the harm in DirecTV telling us why they choose not to implement this?
> 
> We have been told many times that there IS a reason they are not doing this, and it will become clear to us all at some point. So, what is the big secret? Why can't we, the paying customers know? How about just telling us, IF you are planning on getting to it at some point? Is that giving us too much information?
> 
> I'm also a software engineer, and will not pretend to know the complexities involved in implementing DLB. What I do know is that the company that I work for would not just let our customers sway in the wind while we play keepaway with our little secret, or at the least give some kind of explanation on what is going on. I'm sure they know whether or not this can be done, I understand they don't want to give us the details on when/why, but how about just if they THINK it will be done? Throw us a bone. I don't believe customers that are spending the kind of money we are for this service are asking too much. Seems very arrogant to me. Just my opinion.


I miss DLB as much as anyone. But I knew it wasn't in the HR20 from the first review. I knew it when I made the decision to buy it. DirecTV never hid the fact that they didn't have DLB implimented. I see no arrogance in there not giving there competitors any traction regarding the availability or non-availability of DLB.

However, what I do find arrogant is that they released a half-baked, very buggy product and made DirecTV customers unwilling beta testers. Now that I have had two HR20's for about a month, I can tell you I have never, ever owned a product that was so buggy. Major bugs, little bugs, known bugs, unknown bugs, new bugs, old bugs. You name it, and they are there.

More than arrogant. Inexcusable is more like it.


----------



## msmith198025

ShiningBengal said:


> I miss DLB as much as anyone. But I knew it wasn't in the HR20 from the first review. I knew it when I made the decision to buy it. DirecTV never hid the fact that they didn't have DLB implimented. I see no arrogance in there not giving there competitors any traction regarding the availability or non-availability of DLB.
> 
> However, what I do find arrogant is that they released a half-baked, very buggy product and made DirecTV customers unwilling beta testers. Now that I have had two HR20's for about a month, I can tell you I have never, ever owned a product that was so buggy. Major bugs, little bugs, known bugs, unknown bugs, new bugs, old bugs. You name it, and they are there.
> 
> More than arrogant. Inexcusable is more like it.


Are you still having problems? Mine has been bug free for some time now


----------



## ShiningBengal

msmith198025 said:


> Are you still having problems? Mine has been bug free for some time now


Last "bug" I discovered was 3 days ago when it told me it had downloaded new software (it hadn't) and was locked up on that screen. Rebooted. When the HR20 came back to the guide, I found it had erased my favorite channels. Bad enough, but then I discovered to my great consternation that History, To Do list, and ALL of my shows (the disk was close to full) had been deleted from the receiver.

How's that for a bug?


----------



## cbearnm

Other than a feeze up about every 6 weeks, mine has been rock solid. No missed recordings, season passes work great.

DLB are the only thing that hass kept me from making the HR20 my 'go to' receiver. I still use my HR10-250 (TiVo) as my primary receiver. IT just works the way I am used to. But no DLBs are the only knock I have on the HR20.


----------



## bonscott87

lman said:


> Maybe they have no intention of implementing DLB and would rather string along their customers instead of losing them. I assumed the Hr20 had DLB when I purchased it. I was not happy when I learned that I had purchased an inferior product without DLB. I then learned from this website that it was possibly going to be added later. Now I wonder if this information was put out there to satisfy some upset customers.


Nobody is being strung along unless you want to be. Earl has said in no uncertain terms to not count on DLB to ever be put on the HR20 and if that is a #1 feature for you then you better start looking at other options. He's said it multiple times.

So if you are "being strung along" on the 2% chance DLB gets added to the HR20 in 1-2 years then it's your own fault. Seriously.


----------



## ShiningBengal

cbearnm said:


> Other than a feeze up about every 6 weeks, mine has been rock solid. No missed recordings, season passes work great.
> 
> DLB are the only thing that hass kept me from making the HR20 my 'go to' receiver. I still use my HR10-250 (TiVo) as my primary receiver. IT just works the way I am used to. But no DLBs are the only knock I have on the HR20.


Then again, my HR20 only deleted everything once. The problem is, I won't know when the next time will be. I don't know about you, but I record things I want to watch. My play list is the only thing I watch from.

So maybe you will be lucky and your shows will never be wiped clean like mine. But aren't you happy in the knowledge that this CAN happen?

I've had TiVo's for close to 8 years. NEVER did any of them ever delete anything I didn't tell them to. NEVER did any of them fail to record what I asked them to.

Is this too much to ask of a "state of the art" DVR?


----------



## bonscott87

ShiningBengal said:


> Last "bug" I discovered was 3 days ago when it told me it had downloaded new software (it hadn't) and was locked up on that screen. Rebooted. When the HR20 came back to the guide, I found it had erased my favorite channels. Bad enough, but then I discovered to my great consternation that History, To Do list, and ALL of my shows (the disk was close to full) had been deleted from the receiver.
> 
> How's that for a bug?


Not sure if you did, but did you report it in the issues thread?

Secondly, if this happens it usually means a bad hard drive or some corrupted sectors. If there is a bad hard drive the HR20 instead of just dieing and refusing to boot up will try to recover. In doing so a format may happen which will unfortunately wipe out information on the drive.

So the HR20 way is to try to recover from such errors so the user can hopefully keep running vs. Tivo where you get constant lockups, GSOD and so forth. Either way you may lose your programs, at least the HR20 way you can continue to use it while you wait for a replacement.

So that's a long way to say that your hard drive is probably bad and it may happen again. Call up for a replacement. Start a thread on this if you need further help.


----------



## ShiningBengal

bonscott87 said:


> Not sure if you did, but did you report it in the issues thread?
> 
> Secondly, if this happens it usually means a bad hard drive or some corrupted sectors. If there is a bad hard drive the HR20 instead of just dieing and refusing to boot up will try to recover. In doing so a format may happen which will unfortunately wipe out information on the drive.
> 
> So the HR20 way is to try to recover from such errors so the user can hopefully keep running vs. Tivo where you get constant lockups, GSOD and so forth. Either way you may lose your programs, at least the HR20 way you can continue to use it while you wait for a replacement.
> 
> So that's a long way to say that your hard drive is probably bad and it may happen again. Call up for a replacement. Start a thread on this if you need further help.


I grant you there may be a bad HDD involved here, but it certainly isn't exhibiting any symptoms I have associated with a bad drive. Why would it come to life with a message that my recorder had updated the software?

It had to have rebooted to do that, so it doesn't seem that there is any problem with the kernel. I have been using it for 3 days now, and doesn't seem to be misbehaving (that is, other than its normal endearing little glitches like starting recordings late and ending them early).

By the way, I never ever had any lockups or GSOD's on any of the 4 TiVo's I've owned. I have a spare HR10-250 to use if the need should arise to replace the HR20's. I know others have, but after all, this seems to be symtomatic of HDD problems on TiVo's.

I have my eyeballs pealed for any further hints of impending disaster.


----------



## bonscott87

ShiningBengal said:


> By the way, I never ever had any lockups or GSOD's on any of the 4 TiVo's I've owned. I have a spare HR10-250 to use if the need should arise to replace the HR20's. I know others have, but after all, this seems to be symtomatic of HDD problems on TiVo's.


Oh I understand. It's just like myself or several others that can say the same thing about the HR20, never had a problem. My Tivo experience includes a stand alone Series 2 I got in 2000 whose hard drive died about 6 months later and needed to be replaced. My T-60 also had it's hard drive die, although took about 3 years, but I did have the T-60 lock up every couple months. Now my R10 and HDVR2 I've never had a problem with.

As for why your HR20 may have rebooted, do you have it on a UPS? Could have been a simple power glitch/brownout that caused it to reboot and may have also done something bad to the HD in the process. When it tried to recover it would have tried to reinstall the software.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> I grant you there may be a bad HDD involved here, but it certainly isn't exhibiting any symptoms I have associated with a bad drive. Why would it come to life with a message that my recorder had updated the software?


Was it the "Winter Update" message when you go into MyPlaylist... that told you about the updated UI?

If so... then "that" message is prompted, because the "bit" on the hard drive telling the HR20 that it has already been displayed... was ALSO erased, when the system attempted to recover, but ultimately resulted in reformating the drive.

That "IS" the sign of a possible hard drive issue... it is possible that the reformat corrected it (hence one of the reasons it is done), but that is why you got the message again.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> Was it the "Winter Update" message when you go into MyPlaylist... that told you about the updated UI?
> 
> If so... then "that" message is prompted, because the "bit" on the hard drive telling the HR20 that it has already been displayed... was ALSO erased, when the system attempted to recover, but ultimately resulted in reformating the drive.
> 
> That "IS" the sign of a possible hard drive issue... it is possible that the reformat corrected it (hence one of the reasons it is done), but that is why you got the message again.


I don't remember the exact language, except that it talked about "new colors" in the UI. I thought that was more recent than last winter.

I don't think the drive was reformatted, because I didn't have to go through a complete setup. Also, under system information, it showed the actual date (and version number) of the last software update. That was late July, with version 0x17E. It also shows the original software version.

Wouldn't all of that have been obliterated during a complete reformat?


----------



## msmith198025

ShiningBengal said:


> Then again, my HR20 only deleted everything once. The problem is, I won't know when the next time will be. I don't know about you, but I record things I want to watch. My play list is the only thing I watch from.
> 
> So maybe you will be lucky and your shows will never be wiped clean like mine. But aren't you happy in the knowledge that this CAN happen?
> 
> I've had TiVo's for close to 8 years. NEVER did any of them ever delete anything I didn't tell them to. NEVER did any of them fail to record what I asked them to.
> 
> Is this too much to ask of a "state of the art" DVR?


The thing is, it CAN happen to any piece of hardware, just because it hasnt yet on your tivo doesnt mean it wont or couldnt. 
I can understand your problem, and it would make me mad to though.


----------



## sgnhaf

area said:


> Amen brother. If it can record 2 and play a 3rd, everything works in HW to support DLB. Period. It is passing all of the information around that needs to be handled and, since almost all processes are I/O bound, it has satisfied the short pole in the tent. Switching between live buffers is merely a matter of changing iNode references, and since since you can change channels at will, all of the MPEG framing info is available in small time slices. To recap, all of the data need can be passed (biggest bottleneck), decoding streams are re-enterant, and the CPU can handle 3 simultaneous streams. Ergo, everything needed for DLB is in place, it is merely a case of doing the right thing in software.
> 
> For the record I am an engineer who does HW design, but I started life as a SW engineer before I saw the light.


you all have till not listed the problem, there is a major problem prevented the hr20 from using DLB.

I mean the box can not even handle the full data stream from tribune media service. .. Because there is no reason not to use the full guide date from TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICE

1, IS TIVO'S USE IT. SO WE WONT ... WHICH IS PART OF the reason DIRECTV wants nothing todo with ful guide data.

Rest is the box would crash with dlb (if was capable) full guide date and rest goin all at once.


----------



## christo76

sgnhaf said:


> you all have till not listed the problem, there is a major problem prevented the hr20 from using DLB.
> 
> I mean the box can not even handle the full data stream from tribune media service. .. Because there is no reason not to use the full guide date from TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICE
> 
> 1, IS TIVO'S USE IT. SO WE WONT ... WHICH IS PART OF the reason DIRECTV wants nothing todo with ful guide data.
> 
> Rest is the box would crash with dlb (if was capable) full guide date and rest goin all at once.


Enough of the BS... I have already listed how to demonstrate that IT DOES MAINTAIN DUAL buffers. They just delete the background buffer once the channel is switched again. Not too mention it can handle 3 streams, 2 in one 1.

Tune to a local news channel at 5:50 that will end at 6. Record it. Now tune to ESPNHD and watch some sports for about 15-20 minutes. Then hit guide, go back to the local news channel and hit record on the current program. Your tv should still be on ESPNHD right now. Go into list, select the currently recording program, from the local news channel. It should have everything from 6 oclock on. Meaning that even after its recording duties were over, it maintained the buffer. DLB.

I don't know enough about the guide date, except what I have read from other threads, but my understanding is that Tribune media guide formats it in their own, non FCC standard method and thats where some issues arise, I am pretty sure that even my calculate has enough brainpower to handle the data for the guide.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> I don't remember the exact language, except that it talked about "new colors" in the UI. I thought that was more recent than last winter.
> 
> I don't think the drive was reformatted, because I didn't have to go through a complete setup. Also, under system information, it showed the actual date (and version number) of the last software update. That was late July, with version 0x17E. It also shows the original software version.
> 
> Wouldn't all of that have been obliterated during a complete reformat?


No, not all of it... as all of it not stored on the hardrive.

If you saw the screen about the colors... that is "triggered" by a small bit of data on the hard drive, that is only stored at the time the screen is displayed.

Your "configuration" is stored else where and is not part of the harddrive (hence why you don't need to re-do setup with eSATA setups).

The date/version of the last update, is part of the flash... (the software of the HR20 is not on the hard drive)


----------



## Que

A must have! 1668 75.58%
Don't really care about it. 126 5.71%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 413 18.71%
Voters: 2207.

Replies 1,267	Views 69,615


----------



## boltjames

Can we lock this thread? It's already a sticky, all the points have already been made, and it will let us all move on to other things. Leave it as a locked sticky so that the D* people can see it and react to it if they wish; but this has run its course.

Agree?

BJ


----------



## jheda

You know BJ, its interesting. although i not only disagree with your messages, i disagreed with your delivery; yet I stood up and defended your right to express it regardless of how many your post offends..and now you ask to lock a thread you have no interest in.....outstanding......

my apologies for being OT....



boltjames said:


> Can we lock this thread? It's already a sticky, all the points have already been made, and it will let us all move on to other things. Leave it as a locked sticky so that the D* people can see it and react to it if they wish; but this has run its course.
> 
> Agree?
> 
> BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

jheda said:


> You know BJ, its interesting. although i not only disagree with your messages, i disagreed with your delivery; yet I stood up and defended your right to express it regardless of how many your post offends..and now you ask to lock a thread you have no interest in.....outstanding......
> 
> my apologies for being OT....


LOL! He has more posts to this thread than just about anyone, and now he has lost interest in it. (That's what he must mean by "run its course.")

I have a suggestion, BJ: Why not stop reading this thread and unsubscribe from it? As far as I know, that's not against the forum rules.


----------



## msmith198025

Why close it yet? As of now, no one has given any PROOF as to why DLB wouldnt be possible except to say just cause


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> Can we lock this thread? It's already a sticky, all the points have already been made, and it will let us all move on to other things. Leave it as a locked sticky so that the D* people can see it and react to it if they wish; but this has run its course.
> 
> Agree?
> 
> BJ


No... not agreed...

This is still a discussion forum... even if we go around for an um-teenth time hashing the same discussion points.

There is no reason to close it at this point...
If you think that all the points have been made... then seriously... as others have suggested (fairly directly as well)...

Move on... and stop focusing on this thread.. that that want to participate it in... are more then welcome.

Those that could care less... don't need to click on the thread.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

As I posted in a thread about SLB, the Single Live Buffer still has issues.

I can't believe this is still a problem. It's disheartening to want DLB but still have problems with SLB.

Mike

SLB issues thread
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=84453&page=6


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## jheda

Im not sure if disheartening is the right word but i understand... for example if we can get slb to the point where i can pause the live buffer, only record one show and toggle between the one recording and the live buffer hold the pause, we would come a long way....and i would be less vociferous on my dlb desires...and i believe they are working on that...the hr20 is so solid compared to 6 months ago my fingers are crossed they can pay alot of attention to the slb stabalization....

QUOTE=MicroBeta;1049751]As I posted in a thread about SLB, the Single Live Buffer still has issues.

I can't believe this is still a problem. It's disheartening to want DLB but still have problems with SLB.

Mike

SLB issues thread
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=84453&page=6[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jheda said:


> Im not sure if disheartening is the right word but i understand... for example if we can get slb to the point where i can pause the live buffer, only record one show and toggle between the one recording and the live buffer hold the pause, we would come a long way....and i would be less vociferous on my dlb desires...and i believe they are working on that...the hr20 is so solid compared to 6 months ago my fingers are crossed they can pay alot of attention to the slb stabalization....


Ok, a little strong. But, it was disappointing to say the least.

I just want it to work. Maybe that's asking too much. 

Mike


----------



## Que

bradfjoh said:


> I haven't seen this new wish list link posted in this thread... But be sure to add your thoughts to the wish list so that there is more evidence that DLB is important...
> 
> Copied from another *thread*:
> Version 3 of the WISH LIST survey may be found here: *TAKE THE WISH LIST SURVEY*


I am all one for poll.  ... We have this one and old http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8665&d=1182529829 
that has DLB rank #1 with 1505 votes. If you really want something, it might be best to also snail mail them a letter with your account number and name.


----------



## premio

QLB!


----------



## Dtv-dishlitehd

bonscott87 said:


> Nobody is being strung along unless you want to be. Earl has said in no uncertain terms to not count on DLB to ever be put on the HR20 and if that is a #1 feature for you then you better start looking at other options. He's said it multiple times.
> 
> So if you are "being strung along" on the 2% chance DLB gets added to the HR20 in 1-2 years then it's your own fault. Seriously.


Sorry but DTV should do everything they can to make their customers happy and this poll shows that this is a serious issue yet they sit on their hands and do nothing.

I just upgraded to the H20-100 and let me tell you the only thing that was an upgrade was the HD because their DVR is light years behind my tivo units!!! This was hidden from me when I made the upgrade and it is a huge deal to me.

Your smugness on saying it is not a big deal and accepting it is just what DTV wants.

My response is what will you accept next? No more recording 2 things at once? No more online guide?

If you let a company cut corners and start offering less than what was available in the past, are you not taking steps backwards and giving them the green light to do so in the future?


----------



## ShiningBengal

Dtv-dishlitehd said:


> Sorry but DTV should do everything they can to make their customers happy and this poll shows that this is a serious issue yet they sit on their hands and do nothing.
> 
> I just upgraded to the H20-100 and let me tell you the only thing that was an upgrade was the HD because their DVR is light years behind my tivo units!!! This was hidden from me when I made the upgrade and it is a huge deal to me.
> 
> Your smugness on saying it is not a big deal and accepting it is just what DTV wants.
> 
> My response is what will you accept next? No more recording 2 things at once? No more online guide?
> 
> If you let a company cut corners and start offering less than what was available in the past, are you not taking steps backwards and giving them the green light to do so in the future?


Of course the products that DirecTV offers are what they want. If they don't offer what YOU want, you go to someone who does. That doesn't seem to have happened.

I'm unhappy about the lack of DLB. But I'm not willing to put up with the other providers who offer it in my market: Comcast and Dish. So I grudgingly accept it.

I don't like the HR20 for a lot of other reasons, too. But my only remedy is to vote with my feet. I don't think DirecTV is going to change their plans because of complaints about their products on dbstalk.com.

Wish that were the case, but if they had listened to their customers, they never would have abandoned TiVo for their in-house DVR "solution."


----------



## bonscott87

Dtv-dishlitehd said:


> Sorry but DTV should do everything they can to make their customers happy and this poll shows that this is a serious issue yet they sit on their hands and do nothing.
> 
> I just upgraded to the H20-100 and let me tell you the only thing that was an upgrade was the HD because their DVR is light years behind my tivo units!!! This was hidden from me when I made the upgrade and it is a huge deal to me.
> 
> Your smugness on saying it is not a big deal and accepting it is just what DTV wants.
> 
> My response is what will you accept next? No more recording 2 things at once? No more online guide?
> 
> If you let a company cut corners and start offering less than what was available in the past, are you not taking steps backwards and giving them the green light to do so in the future?


I really only have 2 things to say:

1) Just because a majority of people in an unscientific poll on a forum dedicated to people that are "into" technology doesn't mean the majority of "Joe Sixpack" find it a top feature. We don't know what those numbers are.

2) No matter what the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now. I'm not saying it's "not a big deal" at all. To many people it is. But no matter if it's important to you or not it's not a feature of the HR20 DVR. Period. As the Bengal said above, if that's your #1 must have feature then there are other providers that can meet your needs. Feel free to take advantage of that and vote with your wallet.

Not being "smug" at all. Just stating the facts of the situation which many in this thread seem to gloss over or forget. So either deal with it or walk. Just like Charter wants to charge me twice as much for HD for half the channels DirecTV has (right now!) Do I accept it and take it? Heck no! I go to a provider that offers me what I want which right now is DirecTV. Maybe 3 years from now it will be someone else. I have no loyalty to any company. My only loyalty is to a company that provides me what I want. Once they stop doing that it's time to move on. And I do it all the time in life. I hope you do as well.


----------



## Rocker07

bonscott87 said:


> I really only have 2 things to say:
> 
> 1) Just because a majority of people in an unscientific poll on a forum dedicated to people that are "into" technology doesn't mean the majority of "Joe Sixpack" find it a top feature. We don't know what those numbers are.
> 
> 2) No matter what the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now. I'm not saying it's "not a big deal" at all. To many people it is. But no matter if it's important to you or not it's not a feature of the HR20 DVR. Period. As the Bengal said above, if that's your #1 must have feature then there are other providers that can meet your needs. Feel free to take advantage of that and vote with your wallet.
> 
> Not being "smug" at all. Just stating the facts of the situation which many in this thread seem to gloss over or forget. So either deal with it or walk. Just like Charter wants to charge me twice as much for HD for half the channels DirecTV has (right now!) Do I accept it and take it? Heck no! I go to a provider that offers me what I want which right now is DirecTV. Maybe 3 years from now it will be someone else. I have no loyalty to any company. My only loyalty is to a company that provides me what I want. Once they stop doing that it's time to move on. And I do it all the time in life. I hope you do as well.


Well, I could debate point #1 with you for hours, but I bet you this poll is pretty close to the feelings of "Joe Sixpack" than you think. I had no idea what "DLB's" were before finding this web site, but I used it daily....which brings me to point #2, you said "the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now". My question is well known to who? I've been with D* for over 10 years now and I was shocked when I realized the HR20 didn't have DLB's. I just assumed it was a standard feature that all DVR's had.

Will I switch from D* because of it? No, but if someone else could offer me the Sunday Ticket and DLB's I'd switch in a minute. D* should admit their mistake, listen to their subscribers and fix the DLB issue. There are plenty of other "joe sixpacks" out there that are realizing what DLB's are and that the HR20 doesn't have them everyday. It is going to be a growing problem for D* that is only going to get worse.


----------



## jheda

bonscott87 said:


> I really only have 2 things to say:
> 
> _1) Just because a majority of people in an unscientific poll on a forum dedicated to people that are "into" technology doesn't mean the majority of "Joe Sixpack" find it a top feature. We don't know what those numbers are._
> 
> Hi. I am joesixpack. I have 0 tech backround. I had no idea what dlb was but i loved it and realized it imediately when i got the hr20. THATS WHY I FOUND MY NEW HOME, THIS SITE, FIGURING OUT WHAT I WAS DOING WRONG THAT I COULDNT IMPLEMENT IT!!!
> 
> _2) No matter what the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now. I'm not saying it's "not a big deal" at all. To many people it is. But no matter if it's important to you or not it's not a feature of the HR20 DVR. Period. As the Bengal said above, if that's your #1 must have feature then there are other providers that can meet your needs. Feel free to take advantage of that and vote with your wallet._
> 
> What mantra precludes one from being a satisfied customer and wanting better service? I fly jet blue many a mile a year, love the airline, but when i have issues they hear it and they hear it loud, albeit professionally. And happy customers have changed providers minds. When with 100% certainty D announces hr20 will not have DLB, then your point is valid.
> 
> Sorry, Bon, i have the utmost respect for your posts, but here we will have to agree to disagree....


----------



## bonscott87

jheda said:


> _1) Just because a majority of people in an unscientific poll on a forum dedicated to people that are "into" technology doesn't mean the majority of "Joe Sixpack" find it a top feature. We don't know what those numbers are._
> 
> Hi. I am joesixpack. I have 0 tech backround. I had no idea what dlb was but i loved it and realized it imediately when i got the hr20. THATS WHY I FOUND MY NEW HOME, THIS SITE, FIGURING OUT WHAT I WAS DOING WRONG THAT I COULDNT IMPLEMENT IT!!!


Please note I was only speaking on the validity of a poll on a forum of tech geeks. They rarely speak to the vast majority. Perhaps this time it does, but nobody should be taking this poll results as gospel.



> _2) No matter what the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now. I'm not saying it's "not a big deal" at all. To many people it is. But no matter if it's important to you or not it's not a feature of the HR20 DVR. Period. As the Bengal said above, if that's your #1 must have feature then there are other providers that can meet your needs. Feel free to take advantage of that and vote with your wallet._
> 
> What mantra precludes one from beingg a satisfied customer and wanting better service? I fly jet blue many a mile a year, love the airline, but when i have issues they hear it and they hear it loud, albeit professionally. And happy customers have changed providers minds. When with 100% certainty D announces hr20 will not have DLB, then your point is valid.
> 
> Sorry, Bon, i have the utmost respect for your posts, but here we will have to agree to disagree....


There is nothing to disagree with. And certainly nothing wrong with wanting something better.

But the fact is this: Earl has said that it's not coming anytime soon and it's not even on the radar for beyond soon. I guess you can interpret that as you will but if you're holding out hope that it's coming then you may well be waiting for a long time and the HR20 may be replaced by the next generation by then (it is a year old already, most receiver generations are 2-3 years old before being replaced but maybe the HR20 will buck the trend and still be the latest/greatest 4-5 years from now).

But hey, up to everyone what they want to do. My last couple posts here are directed to those that keep posting "DirecTV, tell me if DLB is coming or not so if it's not then I can go to Dish or cable". Hmmm, let me see if any company will then tell them no and let a customer leave.  But more to the point is that it's already been stated it's not coming unless you like long odds. So if someone is looking to leave then they should do so. Suspend your DirecTV account and go to cable and get your DLB and after the 9 month suspension see if DirecTV has made a statement. Crazy that people here seem to "suffer" because of no DLB. Why suffer? There are other options to take.

Anyway, I shall leave and let the DLB thread go on...


----------



## jheda

Well said Scott. I fall in to the category of a very happy sub...who would only be made that much happier if DLB ever comes to fruition...


----------



## Que

A must have! 1707 75.77%
Don't really care about it. 128 5.68%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 418 18.55%
Voters: 2253.

Replies 1,285 Views 71,556

*from 04-23-07:*


Que said:


> A must have! 1117 75.07%
> Don't really care about it. 94	6.32%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 277 18.62%
> Voters: 1488


----------



## Doug Brott

DLB has fallen to #6 on the current HR20 Wish List .. In the past, this was a mainstay at either #1 or #2.


----------



## msmith198025

Dtv-dishlitehd said:


> Sorry but DTV should do everything they can to make their customers happy and this poll shows that this is a serious issue yet they sit on their hands and do nothing.
> 
> I just upgraded to the H20-100 and let me tell you the only thing that was an upgrade was the HD because their DVR is light years behind my tivo units!!! This was hidden from me when I made the upgrade and it is a huge deal to me.
> 
> Your smugness on saying it is not a big deal and accepting it is just what DTV wants.
> 
> My response is what will you accept next? No more recording 2 things at once? No more online guide?
> 
> If you let a company cut corners and start offering less than what was available in the past, are you not taking steps backwards and giving them the green light to do so in the future?


Im sorry that they dont have DLB for people that want it, i really am.

that being said, how was it hidden from you? they box has been out for a while now and this has been a known lacking feature for just as long.


----------



## DrrD

Wait a minute, DirecTV headquarters is in Greenwood village? That's where I live! I had no idea. Duh.


----------



## gsand

I never think of dual buffers anymore except when I visit this forum....


----------



## Rocker07

msmith198025 said:


> Im sorry that they dont have DLB for people that want it, i really am.
> 
> that being said, how was it hidden from you? they box has been out for a while now and this has been a known lacking feature for just as long.


Well, I don't know about it being "hidden" or not, but I do know that I upgraded to the HR20 just assuming it had Dual Buffers. I just thought it was a standard feature, I mean why would D* put out a "new" box for us to upgrade too and make it have LESS features than the old one.


----------



## vicmeldrew

ALthough this is my first post i have been lurking for a couple of years and feel i need to weigh in on this subject; i have TIVOs and the main purpose is the DLB; my viewing habits allow me to watch two shows at the same time and not waste a lot of time "not watching advertisements"; i also have the NFL Season Ticket and find the DLB is a must to watch football efficiently. I just upgraded my TIVO to keep it active for this. If in the future Direct does not incorporate DLB I wll give up the NFL and move; just my 2 cents, thanks


----------



## joejhawk

gsand said:


> I never think of dual buffers anymore except when I visit this forum....


DLB is just about to be VERY missed. Swapping between football games was the time I used DLB the most. DLB with PIP is even better option because then you can watch two games at the same time and swap at commercial or when something big happens.


----------



## MikeR7

vicmeldrew said:


> ALthough this is my first post i have been lurking for a couple of years and feel i need to weigh in on this subject; i have TIVOs and the main purpose is the DLB; my viewing habits allow me to watch two shows at the same time and not waste a lot of time "not watching advertisements"; i also have the NFL Season Ticket and find the DLB is a must to watch football efficiently. I just upgraded my TIVO to keep it active for this. If in the future Direct does not incorporate DLB I wll give up the NFL and move; just my 2 cents, thanks


I've solved this problem. I bought an HR10-250(used), and am getting another HR20. I am going to have 3 screens going at the same time and picture on picture on my biggest TV. By recording the less desireable games, I'll be able to watch about five live at the same time and the recorded ones later! :lol:


----------



## puffnstuff

msmith198025 said:


> Im sorry that they dont have DLB for people that want it, i really am.
> 
> that being said, how was it hidden from you? they box has been out for a while now and this has been a known lacking feature for just as long.


Hidden , no lied to , yes . I bought mine on the first day Best Buy got them and was told by DTV and the clerk it had DLB's . So I get home find out it doesn't . I call D* and I was told way back in Sptember that they were definitely working on it . Well now we know that isn't true , so no they were not hidden from me just taken away


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> Hidden , no lied to , yes . I bought mine on the first day Best Buy got them and was told by DTV and the clerk it had DLB's . So I get home find out it doesn't . I call D* and I was told way back in Sptember that they were definitely working on it . Well now we know that isn't true , so no they were not hidden from me just taken away


Probably not really lied to as you were thinking DLB and they were thinking dual tuners. Agreed, they were not the same thing, but a miscommunication does not make it a lie.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> Probably not really lied to as you were thinking DLB and they were thinking dual tuners. Agreed, they were not the same thing, but a miscommunication does not make it a lie.


No , I was definitely lied too . I was on the phone for about 2 hours explaining myself and finally got the right person ( thats how I found out about retention , because I told them to shove it ) that knew just what I was talking about , and for about 4 months I called every month , and was told the same thing , that they were working on it . I only stopped calling when Earl said it was a no go .


----------



## bonscott87

puffnstuff said:


> No , I was definitely lied too . I was on the phone for about 2 hours explaining myself and finally got the right person ( thats how I found out about retention , because I told them to shove it ) that knew just what I was talking about , and for about 4 months I called every month , and was told the same thing , that they were working on it . I only stopped calling when Earl said it was a no go .


Not making an excuse but the problem is that you decided to actually listen to a Worst Buy drone or clueless CSR in the first place. You will almost *never* get any good information on technical issues like this by calling a CSR. 99% of them will have no idea what you mean if you call about "DLB" or any other issue like this.

Now you know better and will only use forums like this one as a place to find the actual information.


----------



## puffnstuff

bonscott87 said:


> Not making an excuse but the problem is that you decided to actually listen to a Worst Buy drone or clueless CSR in the first place. You will almost *never* get any good information on technical issues like this by calling a CSR. 99% of them will have no idea what you mean if you call about "DLB" or any other issue like this.
> 
> Now you know better and will only use forums like this one as a place to find the actual information.


Ain't that the truth . Besides calling about service issues or to get a new reciever I have not called since I found this site about a year ago  ( except about DLB )


----------



## beer_geek

> DIRECTV has features in the works they feel are more appealing to a larger audience of users.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> __________________
> My toys: HR20(5, 1 on SWM), HR10(2), H21 (on SWM), H20, r10, hdvr2(2), Samsung HLR5668 and HLR4667
> My real treasures: 6 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C, M (in Iraq) ; 1 Great-Granddaughter - B


This is true. Apparently, they feel it is more important to be able to look at photographs and listen to music than it is to provide a feature that can enhance the watching of television.


----------



## jheda

Tom was likely refering to the potential for Video on Demand one day....



beer_geek said:


> This is true. Apparently, they feel it is more important to be able to look at photographs and listen to music than it is to provide a feature that can enhance the watching of television.


----------



## falken

The CSRs at most companies anymore are drones that have access to a computer system that is able to do things they do not want customers to access themselves (adjust prices, apply credits, activate, deactivate, etc.).

They are not well informed about the company, product, or service they are selling. You should not expect them to understand anything other than a simple problem where a scripted answer can help you. This also goes for sales people at your average electronics mega store (best buy, circuit city, etc.).

There are exceptions to every rule, there are some excellent CSR and sales people out there. But they are getting harder and harder to find. Companies are looking every day to cut employee costs, that means you send things overseas, don't spend time educating your people, and you hire whoever will work for cheap.


----------



## beer_geek

jheda said:


> Tom was likely refering to the potential for Video on Demand one day....


But that's a "one day" feature that we've never had. It's interesting reading some of this stuff like "the poll is invalid because we're supposed to be techno-geeks and DLB isn't for 'joe six-pack'." Tell me, which requires more technowledge; pushing some buttons on the remote to use DLB or setting up media sharing?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Read my other posts here about this...Other service providers are marketing that "you can watch two shows as once".

_Joe-six-pack_ doesn't have to know a thing about *DLB *to understand that he can't watch 2 shows with D* while he can with his neighbors DVR.

Mike


----------



## falken

beer_geek said:


> But that's a "one day" feature that we've never had. It's interesting reading some of this stuff like "the poll is invalid because we're supposed to be techno-geeks and DLB isn't for 'joe six-pack'." Tell me, which requires more technowledge; pushing some buttons on the remote to use DLB or setting up media sharing?


My wife isn't exactly tech savy... the first week we had the HR20 she asked me, "how do I switch to the other tuner? I've tried everything". She knew it had 2 tuners cause we could record 2 things, it stood to reason you should be able to see the other one.


----------



## ShiningBengal

beer_geek said:


> But that's a "one day" feature that we've never had. It's interesting reading some of this stuff like "the poll is invalid because we're supposed to be techno-geeks and DLB isn't for 'joe six-pack'." Tell me, which requires more technowledge; pushing some buttons on the remote to use DLB or setting up media sharing?


I have no problem with DirecTV adding new features that a small percentage of users care about (I include VOD in that assessment--the only reason it is being added is that DirecTV thinks people will spend $6.00 a hit to rent a movie every night). But they might have started with what was known--TiVo got just about everything right. Why not start out with a TiVo-like basic feature set including wish lists, DLB, choice of guide styles, simple and intuitive remote, consistent and reliable user interface, etc.?

There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


----------



## celticpride

thats one thing i hate about the hr20 NOT HAVING DUAL LIVE BUFFERS! i still can't get used to it not having dlb s sibce i got it in may of 07.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


That is NOT a universal opinion of all of those that have owned TiVos....


----------



## say-what

ShiningBengal said:


> But they might have started with what was known--TiVo got just about everything right. Why not start out with a TiVo-like basic feature set including wish lists, DLB, choice of guide styles, simple and intuitive remote, consistent and reliable user interface, etc.?
> 
> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


I used the DirecTIVO's for several years prior to getting an HR20.

Wish list - most useless feature (aside from autocorrect, which I found to be the most annoying feature) I've seen and never used on TIVO

DLB - yeah I used it, but it's not like DLB is the Holy Grail of DVR features. I can manage without.

Choice of guide styles - didn't care for the TIVO style guide, prefer the traditional grid style

simple and intuitive remote - yeah, right. The DirecTV remote works perfectly fine for me. In fact, after using it as my sole remote, I find the TIVO remote difficult to use when at my parent's or brother's house.

consistent and reliable user interface - the HR20 has that.



Earl Bonovich said:


> That is NOT a universal opinion of all of those that have owned TiVos....


----------



## tonyd79

ShiningBengal said:


> I have no problem with DirecTV adding new features that a small percentage of users care about (I include VOD in that assessment--the only reason it is being added is that DirecTV thinks people will spend $6.00 a hit to rent a movie every night).


I love VOD on Comcast and never buy movies. Yes, they may hope that people will spend the money to rent movies but there is plenty of free content on Comcast On Demand and I assume there will be also on D* VOD. (A bunch of it comes from the channels themselves, promoting themselves, so it is not just about D* getting PPV money.)


----------



## jheda

Sorry, as much as I am a known DLB fan, i cant agree with the below. I dont think its a step backwards. I think the HR20 is a step _foward _for many reasons, including, but not limited to, one touch recording, picture in picture guide, one line guide (the blue button) etc.

DLB is one feature that I admittedly miss. But i wouldnt trade my Hr20.

Just one humble opinion.



ShiningBengal said:


> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is NOT a universal opinion of all of those that have owned TiVos....


On re-reading my post, I don't see the word "universal" or "all" anywhere.

No way for me to do scientific poll, but 100% if those I know personally who have owned DirecTiVo's and have "upgraded" to the HR20--nine to be precise--have felt as I do. There are different reasons cited, but the lack of DLB is on everyone's list.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


I sorely miss *DLB*. 

With that said, I think the HR20 is anything but a _step backward_.

I think the HR20 does some things better than my old TiVo did. 

The buffers have been my only issue.

I'm not going to trade my HR20 just yet.

The only thing that will make me move is if *SLB* doesn't get fixed.

If we're to have the _*one and only buffer*_ it must working. 

Mike


----------



## ShiningBengal

say-what said:


> I used the DirecTIVO's for several years prior to getting an HR20.
> 
> Wish list - most useless feature (aside from autocorrect, which I found to be the most annoying feature) I've seen and never used on TIVO
> 
> DLB - yeah I used it, but it's not like DLB is the Holy Grail of DVR features. I can manage without.
> 
> Choice of guide styles - didn't care for the TIVO style guide, prefer the traditional grid style
> 
> simple and intuitive remote - yeah, right. The DirecTV remote works perfectly fine for me. In fact, after using it as my sole remote, I find the TIVO remote difficult to use when at my parent's or brother's house.
> 
> consistent and reliable user interface - the HR20 has that.


Wish list: If you don't use a feature, why complain about it??? Is it useless to know a program is going to air a month in the future before it is in the guide, yet still be able to make sure it is recorded? Is it useless to be alerted to a movie that MAY be aired in the future and have it autorecord IF it is aired, no matter what channel or time? I think this is extremely useful. And you are not forced to use it if you don't want to. Just like "TiVo suggestions." If you don't like them, you don't have to use them.

Autocorrect: It is so annoying that the last software upgrade to the HR20 included it. (Except it doesn't work consistently.)

DLB: You used it. Must mean you found it useful. Holy Grail? How can it be a Holy Grail when every DVR but the HR20 has it?

Choice of guides: So you were happy you were given a choice. So was I, and I chose the TiVo guide.

HR20 Remote: Absolute abomination. You were able to get used to it. I wasn't able to and bought a Harmony. (Multi-function rainbow colored buttons are really great when you are watching in the dark, right?)

TiVo wasn't perfect. But it didn't need a software update every month or so that usually breaks something that worked if it fixed something that didn't. The last software update I received wiped out my playlist and favorite channels. How about that for reliability?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> Wish list: If you don't use a feature, why complain about it??? Is it useless to know a program is going to air a month in the future before it is in the guide, yet still be able to make sure it is recorded? Is it useless to be alerted to a movie that MAY be aired in the future and have it autorecord IF it is aired, no matter what channel or time? I think this is extremely useful. And you are not forced to use it if you don't want to. Just like "TiVo suggestions." If you don't like them, you don't have to use them.
> 
> Autocorrect: It is so annoying that the last software upgrade to the HR20 included it. (Except it doesn't work consistently.)
> 
> DLB: You used it. Must mean you found it useful. Holy Grail? How can it be a Holy Grail when every DVR but the HR20 has it?
> 
> Choice of guides: So you were happy you were given a choice. So was I, and I chose the TiVo guide.
> 
> HR20 Remote: Absolute abomination. You were able to get used to it. I wasn't able to and bought a Harmony. (Multi-function rainbow colored buttons are really great when you are watching in the dark, right?)
> 
> TiVo wasn't perfect. But it didn't need a software update every month or so that usually breaks something that worked if it fixed something that didn't. The last software update I received wiped out my playlist and favorite channels. How about that for reliability?


Come on.......

You make it seem as if the thing barely starts up.

I've had the HR20 for 7mo and have never had something "_break_" after an update.

With a few exceptions, this machine works great.

BTW, not all DVR's out there have *DLB*. You may be able to get/use one that does with other service providers but it is incorrect to saythat "all" others have it.

Mike


----------



## say-what

ShiningBengal said:


> Wish list: If you don't use a feature, why complain about it??? Is it useless to know a program is going to air a month in the future before it is in the guide, yet still be able to make sure it is recorded? Is it useless to be alerted to a movie that MAY be aired in the future and have it autorecord IF it is aired, no matter what channel or time? I think this is extremely useful. And you are not forced to use it if you don't want to. Just like "TiVo suggestions." If you don't like them, you don't have to use them.
> 
> Autocorrect: It is so annoying that the last software upgrade to the HR20 included it. (Except it doesn't work consistently.)
> 
> DLB: You used it. Must mean you found it useful. Holy Grail? How can it be a Holy Grail when every DVR but the HR20 has it?
> 
> Choice of guides: So you were happy you were given a choice. So was I, and I chose the TiVo guide.
> 
> HR20 Remote: Absolute abomination. You were able to get used to it. I wasn't able to and bought a Harmony. (Multi-function rainbow colored buttons are really great when you are watching in the dark, right?)
> 
> TiVo wasn't perfect. But it didn't need a software update every month or so that usually breaks something that worked if it fixed something that didn't. The last software update I received wiped out my playlist and favorite channels. How about that for reliability?


These were all features you claimed TIVO got right, but which I feel were window dressing - all non-vital to the role of a DVR. Whether I used a particular function doesn't change my opinion as to the actual necessity of that function in every DVR. Not everyone who used TIVO considers it the benchmark for all DVR's.


----------



## ShiningBengal

MicroBeta said:


> Come on.......
> 
> You make it seem as if the thing barely starts up.
> 
> I've had the HR20 for 7mo and have never had something "_break_" after an update.
> 
> With a few exceptions, this machine works great.
> 
> BTW, not all DVR's out there have *DLB*. You may be able to get/use one that does with other service providers but it is incorrect to saythat "all" others have it.
> 
> Mike


Allow me to rephrase: _Virtually_ all other service providers' DVR's have DLB. You won't have to look hard to find one.

In Minneapolis, the other two providers we can choose from are Comcast and Dish. They both do, and of course, Comcast will shortly have TiVo on their DVR. Unfortunately, for me they are non-starters because of pricing (Comcast) and execrable service (Dish).

Unfortunate that we cannot determine when the "exceptions" you mention will occur. And apparently DirecTV must not think the HR20 is "fixed" yet, or we wouldn't be treated with beta versions of the software in rapid succession.

Lets face it. This machine wasn't ready for prime time when it was released, and it isn't there yet. Even if it had DLB, IMHO.


----------



## ShiningBengal

say-what said:


> These were all features you claimed TIVO got right, but which I feel were window dressing - all non-vital to the role of a DVR. Whether I used a particular function doesn't change my opinion as to the actual necessity of that function in every DVR. Not everyone who used TIVO considers it the benchmark for all DVR's.


The only reason I listed them is because I was responding to someone who did. I don't consider them to be the essence of what a DVR must have.

Here are the two that I feel should be at the top of the list of requirements:



Ease of use
 By this I mean an intuitive and simple user interface (which includes a remote control that can easily be used in a darkened room with one hand)


Reliability
 Freedom from bugs. Records what you instructed it, as you instructed it. Season passes should behave. Recordings should start and stop when you scheduled them.

There are other important ones, but these are the _sine quo non_

The HR20 fails on both counts--again, IMHO.


----------



## daveriv

MicroBeta said:


> I sorely miss *DLB*.
> 
> With that said, I think the HR20 is anything but a _step backward_.
> 
> I think the HR20 does some things better than my old TiVo did.
> 
> The buffers have been my only issue.
> 
> Mike


Couldn't agree more - with football season around the corner I would love to have it, but the HR20, in my opinion, is an outstanding DVR!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

ShiningBengal said:


> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.





Earl Bonovich said:


> That is NOT a universal opinion of all of those that have owned TiVos....





ShiningBengal said:


> On re-reading my post, I don't see the word "universal" or "all" anywhere.


How is one to interpret the comment: "those who have owned TiVos?" I see the smiley, I'm just having a hard time understanding the relevance of your last statement above.

I, too, owned (and continue to own) TiVos. I do not consider the HR20 to be a step backward. In fact, I find many of the things it does to be a significant advancement - first and foremost the ability to view MPEG-4 HD.


----------



## say-what

ShiningBengal said:


> Here are the two that I feel should be at the top of the list of requirements:
> 
> 
> Ease of use
> By this I mean an intuitive and simple user interface (which includes a remote control that can easily be used in a darkened room with one hand)
> 
> 
> Reliability
> Freedom from bugs. Records what you instructed it, as you instructed it. Season passes should behave. Recordings should start and stop when you scheduled them.
> 
> There are other important ones, but these are the _sine quo non_
> 
> The HR20 fails on both counts--again, IMHO.


I found the HR20 easy to use out of the box - certainly no more difficult a learning curve than the TIVO. I also find the HR20 reliable; my experience has been that it records what I want, when I want (SL's, individual shows, manual recordings and R-button) and plays back my recordings without problem.

IMO, the HR20 succeeds. I'm not denying that there are people who have had issues, just saying I haven't with either of my HR20's.

I've had a very positive experience with both the DirecTIVO and HR20. These are different machines with their own quirks and features. Those options that I don't care to use and which I am able to change, I change. Those options that cannot be changed, I adapt to and those that don't exist I can live without (if they add them fine, if not fine), but I don't obsess over either to the point that they negatively affect my ability to use and enjoy the DVR.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> Allow me to rephrase: _Virtually_ all other service providers' DVR's have DLB. You won't have to look hard to find one.


Fair enough..._and to be fair_, I couldn't find a provider who didn't have at least one box with *DLB* (I posted a list of my research somewhere earlier in this thread). :grin: 
I just want people, who may not already know and are reading this, to have the complete story.



ShiningBengal said:


> Unfortunate that we cannot determine when the "exceptions" you mention will occur. And apparently DirecTV must not think the HR20 is "fixed" yet, or we wouldn't be treated with beta versions of the software in rapid succession.


I was refering to *SLB* & *CIR* as the execptions. Of course, this only applies to me. I can't say what others think. :sure:



ShiningBengal said:


> Lets face it. This machine wasn't ready for prime time when it was released, and it isn't there yet. Even if it had DLB, IMHO.


I have to agree that, at least in the begining, it may not have been ready for release. Though, I'm sure that someone might debate that point.
As for right now, I think the machine is in great shape and can stand up to like machines with little problem.

*THAT IS IF SLB WORKS IN THE NEW RELEASE.* 
Without that, it's just a dual tuner reciever that records and keeps its buffer...most of the time. :bad_nono:

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

ShiningBengal said:


> The last software update I received wiped out my playlist and favorite channels. How about that for reliability?


If I remember correctly we explained that this is because you had some sort of hard drive failure (bad sectors at least). Same thing happens on a Tivo and more often then not it won't even boot. At least on the HR20 you can continue to use it while you get a replacement. You have gotten DirecTV on the horn to get a replacement, right? I would knowing it has a hard drive issue.


----------



## Rocker07

ShiningBengal said:


> I have no problem with DirecTV adding new features that a small percentage of users care about (I include VOD in that assessment--the only reason it is being added is that DirecTV thinks people will spend $6.00 a hit to rent a movie every night). But they might have started with what was known--TiVo got just about everything right. Why not start out with a TiVo-like basic feature set including wish lists, DLB, choice of guide styles, simple and intuitive remote, consistent and reliable user interface, etc.?
> 
> There is a reason that TiVo is such a hit with users--and why the HR20 is considered a step backward to those who have owned TiVos.


I couldn't agree more. I just find it hard to believe that D* would put out a box that we need to "upgrade" to that has LESS features than the one it is replacing. If i wouldn't have had to "upgrade" to see the new HD channels I never would have. I just assumed the HR20 would have all the features of my Tivo box, including DLB's.....I guess the joke was on me.


----------



## pasinfw

I think i finally understand why there is no DLB on the HR20 and why we are unlikely to ever see it. It is all about money. Commercials are what gives the networks and D* their bottom line. There has in the past been complaints about the abilities of DVR's to skip commercials and efforts have been made to alleviate this concern for the advertisers. Tivo has had their own issues and solutions for this. D* has their way by making it less likely that you will be watching a buffered program. Not impossible but considering normal users habits less likely. They did it by getting rid of DLB.

I gained understanding of this as recently my D*Tivo unit in my bedroom went belly up and I was sent a non-Tivo unit as replacement with the D* software on it. Additionally I had another problem with my living room D*Tivo unit and had to rely solely on my HR20. As a heavy user of DLB this was a big shock to my system (and still is)

Low and behold the standard patterns of watching TV that many people use of channel surfing causes me to do one of my least favorite things, watch an unbuffered show and consequently all the commercials with it. Yes I can go watch a show that I have recorded and then come back and "rewind" the channel that is buffering (a big pain in the a**) but fact is, I have lost choice.

I have lost the ability to watch TV as I would like. To not have to watch the same commercial on CNNHLN (or any other channel) 50 times a month (no i will never buy gold from M* or 'H*on' for my headaches and I don't need to see those commercials 5 times every half hour to figure out if I will change my mind).

The bottom line for me is the HR20 is a HUGE step backwards strictly because of the loss of DLB. Yes I like some of the other features they implemented but they pail in comparison to the loss of choice and the loss of the ability to watch TV like I want and to have to watch all those commercials over and over and over. 

I am sure there are others out there that have different methods of getting around this, who don't care if they watch commercials, who record everything. But I am also sure that none of these methods work as well, easily or seamlessly as DLB.

D* TV has won. The big advertisers have won. We have all lost. Hopefully AT&T and UV* will get it right. I'm waiting patiently.

As a side note, after getting the replacement unit with the D* software on it I called back in and reamed the CSR about receiving their unit with "defective" D* software on it and they sent me out a D*Tivo replacement. I have seen other posts where people had this same experience. Don't settle for the cra**y D* unit Call them up and ream them out and get the good stuff!!!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

pasinfw said:


> I think i finally understand why there is no DLB on the HR20 and why we are unlikely to ever see it. It is all about money. Commercials are what gives the networks and D* their bottom line.


Well...

That theory has been thrown out a lot of times...
And I will give you the same answer, as I did all those times.

Then why do they let you record the shows? and FF through it?
The lack of Dual Buffers, has nothing to do with "commercials"..

Nothing is going to keep you in your seat to watch those commercials when you are watching live... and if you just buffer for even 10 minutes (per 30 minutes of programming).... you can FF at 4x past them..

And with the inclusion of autocorrect now...

So you may see "glimpses" of the commercials (a few frames)... but that doesn't constitue watching them...

But if that is the explaination that will let you sleep at night...


----------



## MikeR7

pasinfw said:


> D* TV has won. The big advertisers have won. *We have all lost.* Hopefully AT&T and UV* will get it right. I'm waiting patiently.


I haven't lost anything. 

I wouldn't count on AT&T for anything. :lol:

Just a side comment, my used HR10-250 is arriving today and I hope to have time over the weekend to hook it up and run a couple more lines from the WB68 which will now be maxed out, and get DIRECTV to activate it. I will finally be able to experience first hand this wonderful thing called DLB. I'll let you all know what I think. I think it will be a unique experiment, being a HR20 user for 6 months finally being able to understand what all the fuss is about.


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well...
> 
> That theory has been thrown out a lot of times...
> And I will give you the same answer, as I did all those times.
> 
> Then why do they let you record the shows? and FF through it?
> The lack of Dual Buffers, has nothing to do with "commercials"..
> 
> Nothing is going to keep you in your seat to watch those commercials when you are watching live... and if you just buffer for even 10 minutes (per 30 minutes of programming).... you can FF at 4x past them..
> 
> And with the inclusion of autocorrect now...
> 
> So you may see "glimpses" of the commercials (a few frames)... but that doesn't constitue watching them...
> 
> But if that is the explaination that will let you sleep at night...


So we have a statement explaining that DirecTV did not eliminate DLB for commercial reasons. OK, why was DLB eliminated then. I have not heard why this important feature was eliminated.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> So we have a statement explaining that DirecTV did not eliminate DLB for commercial reasons. OK, why was DLB eliminated then. I have not heard why this important feature was eliminated.


DLB was never "eliminated" on the DVR+ platform.
It was never there to begin with. hasn't been there for 2+ years (going back to the R15)
Sorry that everyone had the assumption that it was going to be there, just because another product by another vendor... had it....
But it is no "secret" it isn't there, and it isn't like it had it and it was taken away.

As for a statement on why it is still not there... no... and a definitive statement on if it will ever be... no

So you all are free to "theorize" to your hearts content on why it isn't or isn't there...

But then also expect some discussion about those theories....


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> DLB was never "eliminated" on the DVR+ platform.
> It was never there to begin with. hasn't been there for 2+ years (going back to the R15)
> Sorry that everyone had the assumption that it was going to be there, just because another product by another vendor... had it....
> But it is no "secret" it isn't there, and it isn't like it had it and it was taken away.
> 
> As for a statement on why it is still not there... no... and a definitive statement on if it will ever be... no
> 
> So you all are free to "theorize" to your hearts content on why it isn't or isn't there...
> 
> But then also expect some discussion about those theories....


The DLB option was eliminated for me when I replaced my DirecTivo with what I thought was an upgrade, but later learned was missing this feature. I didn't think DirecTV would eliminate this feature from a unit that was made to replace the DirecTivo. Thanks for defending DirecTV.


----------



## Guest

DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> Thanks for the comments. Very good points guys. I will pass your comments onto the DIRECTV folks in charge so they understand your position.
> 
> Maybe they will give in to Season Ticket holders and give them the option to selectively turn off the Showcases download during the football season or as I stated earlier have the program put off the downloads till the middle of the night.
> 
> -Robert


How about giving us the option to turn ON the showcases? Last time I checked, the showcases work on my older Tivo model, but not on the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> The DLB option was eliminated for me when I replaced my DirecTivo with what I thought was an upgrade, but later learned was missing this feature. I didn't think DirecTV would eliminate this feature from a unit that was made to replace the DirecTivo. Thanks for defending DirecTV.


Sorry you didn't do your homework on the product you where "upgrading" to..

Again... this has been no "mystery" that it wasn't there.
It hasn't been hidden...

So you were not "forced" to get rid of your DirecTivo... 
Your DirecTivo will still work fine... and work in the way it was designed..

But if you want the new features, yes... you had to get a new product... that is not the same as the old.

And as for "thanks for defending DirecTV"... facts are facts...
The feature was never there... never said it was going to be there...
And wasn't expected to be there, after the R15 didn't have them...

So...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rcoleman111 said:


> How about giving us the option to turn ON the showcases? Last time I checked, the showcases work on my older Tivo model, but not on the HR20.


Showcases do work on your HR20...
DirecTV just hasn't pushed much content to it.


----------



## shelland

pasinfw said:


> The bottom line for me is the HR20 is a HUGE step backwards strictly because of the loss of DLB. Yes I like some of the other features they implemented but they pail in comparison to the loss of choice and the loss of the ability to watch TV like I want and to have to watch all those commercials over and over and over.


I got an HR20 a few weeks ago, and still haven't had much time to play with it. Although it is in our family room, where I don't tend to sit and just watch TV.

We have an HD-Tivo in the living room, where we do the majority of our daily TV viewing. I use the dual live buffers virtually every single time I sit down to watch TV. Why? I guess because I can.

I need to read up more on the subject to see how people are dealing with not having the feature. I admit I haven't used the receiver enough or read enough yet to understand how the HR20 does (or doesn't) work with the multiple tuners. As the summer winds down, I'll have time to sit down and use the receiver more. And ultimately I'll have to decide when to upgrade my HD-Tivo to an HR20 as well.

I'm not going to say it's the end of the world, or that the new receiver is a step down regardless of any other features. But I am very disappointed that I will not have a feature that I use regularly. I probably use pause and rewind more often, but I think I switch between buffers more often than even the record function.


----------



## bonscott87

shelland said:


> I need to read up more on the subject to see how people are dealing with not having the feature.


Depends how you watch TV I guess. I don't watch live TV, I have better things to do with my time (there are times we don't even turn the TV on for days at a time). Thus I never used DLBs in the first place. Can't miss something you never used.

I used to use it on Sunday Ticket only but when I got my first HD receiver nearly 5 years ago there was no HD DVR. Thus no DLBs. Thus I quickly got used to not using DLBs during Sunday Ticket. Thus again, I don't miss something on the HR20 that I didn't use before I got it.

So how *you'll* deal with it is how much you watch live TV I'd guess. And then if it's your top priority then you'll have to evaluate a simple forumula:
Is DLB > then 100+ HD channels? 
or in the future is DLB > Sunday Ticket if you are a ST sub?

If so then it's time to investigate another provider who may eventually also offer those HD channels as well and offers you DLBs. It's ok to leave DirecTV, it really is.


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry you didn't do your homework on the product you where "upgrading" to..
> 
> Again... this has been no "mystery" that it wasn't there.
> It hasn't been hidden...
> 
> So you were not "forced" to get rid of your DirecTivo...
> Your DirecTivo will still work fine... and work in the way it was designed..
> 
> But if you want the new features, yes... you had to get a new product... that is not the same as the old.
> 
> And as for "thanks for defending DirecTV"... facts are facts...
> The feature was never there... never said it was going to be there...
> And wasn't expected to be there, after the R15 didn't have them...
> 
> So...


I was told that I would need the HR20 if I wanted to watch the new HD channels. 
I don't want new features. I just want the same features I had with HD. It doesn't look like that is possible. Those are the facts.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> I was told that I would need the HR20 if I wanted to watch the new HD channels.
> I don't want new features. I just want the same features I had with HD. It doesn't look like that is possible. Those are the facts.


You are correct... 
But you want to access "new" features, which are the new HD networks.

People that want INTERACTIVE content... they had to change to new systems as well.


----------



## Guest

Earl Bonovich said:


> Showcases do work on your HR20...
> DirecTV just hasn't pushed much content to it.


Earl, I've never yet seen anything in Showcases. I don't check it every day, but I do look occasionally. And I definitely wasn't getting the Sunday Ticket Highlights on Demand during the football season. Other posts in this forum have also confirmed that the football highlights aren't working on the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rcoleman111 said:


> Earl, I've never yet seen anything in Showcases. I don't check it every day, but I do look occasionally. And I definitely wasn't getting the Sunday Ticket Highlights on Demand during the football season. Other posts in this forum have also confirmed that the football highlights aren't working on the HR20.


It's not that they are not working...
They are not being pushed.

There has been... I think about 4 programs pushed to the Showcases..
And those were pretty much during the time period when the Showcases were in the CE phase...


----------



## Guest

bonscott87 said:


> Depends how you watch TV I guess. I don't watch live TV, I have better things to do with my time (there are times we don't even turn the TV on for days at a time).


So if the Bears are playing, you don't watch the game live?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rcoleman111 said:


> So if the Bears are playing, you don't watch the game live?


At least for me...

I tend to start watching about 1 - 1:30... and have the game recorded...

So I can skip over the zillon/repetative commercials...
By the end of the game, I am usually live...

But outside of sports, I am in the same boat.... pretty much everything is recorded and watched at a later time.


----------



## Guest

Earl Bonovich said:


> It's not that they are not working...
> They are not being pushed.
> 
> There has been... I think about 4 programs pushed to the Showcases..
> And those were pretty much during the time period when the Showcases were in the CE phase...


Do you have any idea why the highlights weren't being pushed during the football season, or if they are planning to push them when this season starts? I was still getting them on my Tivo last year, but not on the HR20. I don't get why they don't push them to the HR20, if that's all that's needed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rcoleman111 said:


> Do you have any idea why the highlights weren't being pushed during the football season, or if they are planning to push them when this season starts? I was still getting them on my Tivo last year, but not on the HR20. I don't get why they don't push them to the HR20, if that's all that's needed.


That I don't have an answer for... haven't heard either way.


----------



## Guest

Earl Bonovich said:


> At least for me...
> 
> I tend to start watching about 1 - 1:30... and have the game recorded...
> 
> So I can skip over the zillon/repetative commercials...
> By the end of the game, I am usually live...
> 
> But outside of sports, I am in the same boat.... pretty much everything is recorded and watched at a later time.


I do the same thing, Earl, but I'm usually live by the end of the game, too. Otherwise, I have to shut off my answering machine, not answer my cell phone, and not talk to anyone until I've watched the entire game.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

rcoleman111 said:


> Do you have any idea why the highlights weren't being pushed during the football season, or if they are planning to push them when this season starts? I was still getting them on my Tivo last year, but not on the HR20. I don't get why they don't push them to the HR20, if that's all that's needed.


I think showcases werent turned on last year we only started getting showcases


----------



## bonscott87

rcoleman111 said:


> So if the Bears are playing, you don't watch the game live?


I already stated that I watch Sunday Ticket live. I flip around like a madman. Bears may be my team but I don't need to see every play, could care less. If there is a "big" amazing play I miss I can catch it on YouTube within the hour.

I've got 2 screens with 5 tuners going (who needs dual buffers, I got quad buffers plus 1), Superfan popups with my players big plays and a laptop streaming all stats 30 seconds behind live including audio announcements of every scoring play as it happens.

DLB is useless to me watching Sunday Ticket in today's day and age where I know every play and every stat seconds after they happen. But that's just me and you asked.


----------



## pasinfw

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well...
> 
> That theory has been thrown out a lot of times...
> And I will give you the same answer, as I did all those times.
> 
> Then why do they let you record the shows? and FF through it?
> The lack of Dual Buffers, has nothing to do with "commercials"..
> 
> Nothing is going to keep you in your seat to watch those commercials when you are watching live... and if you just buffer for even 10 minutes (per 30 minutes of programming).... you can FF at 4x past them..
> 
> And with the inclusion of autocorrect now...
> 
> So you may see "glimpses" of the commercials (a few frames)... but that doesn't constitue watching them...
> 
> But if that is the explaination that will let you sleep at night...


Well Earl, I expected the response and the expected what it would be. What I don't get is it appears you know, or think you know, why dual buffers aren't there but after all this time you still won't say. Obviously it is some reason other than patents, other than programming other than commercials other than money other than anything else known to god and man. So what is it? People want it. So why?

As far as on this being removed, well you have to say essentially it was removed. They had to start somewhere, with a way their DVR was going to work, what it was going to do, a set of features. Where did they start, with all the other DVR's on the market? Fact is in some meeting some where they said "hey, we're not going to have DLB". So the fact is, it was removed. But why?

On upgrading, i mean downgrading, I did my homework. I bought my HD TV and had it over a year before I got an HD receiver. Why, because DLB was more important to me than HD content. Still is. I'll keep my DTIVO's until till I can't keep them working anymore or DTV doesn't support them anymore or I can find another provider.

What you say is correct. I can record everything. I can turn the TV on and go wander off and come back later and not have to watch commercials. What I can't do is choose when and how I want to watch TV. I can't watch two ball games at the same time, and from your comments, neither can you.

I can't pause the news and let my kids watch a little TV in the morning and then go back and continue where I left off. I can't do a whole lot of things that DLB lets me do.

As far as my "delusions" of commercials being the reason letting me sleep at night, who cares. I know DirectTV doesn't care what their loyal customers want. I just want to rail on DirectTV and their stupidity.

I'd also like someone to step up and have the balls to respond to all of us who want a feature that is available elsewhere. And if DirectTV doesn't have the balls to make the feature available in their version of a DVR then let TIVO make a new DVR so that all of us who want it can have it. Choice and selection rules. Being able to watch TV the way I want rules.

So give us a reason. Tell us why. Or tell everyone that its never going to happen and that DirecTV doesn't believe in giving their customers what they want.


----------



## bonscott87

pasinfw said:


> I can't pause the news and let my kids watch a little TV in the morning and then go back and continue where I left off. I can't do a whole lot of things that DLB lets me do.


Why don't you just hit the record button the news and then let your kids watch what they want to and then you can go back to watching the news when they are done?


----------



## bonscott87

pasinfw said:


> I'd also like someone to step up and have the balls to respond to all of us who want a feature that is available elsewhere. And if DirectTV doesn't have the balls to make the feature available in their version of a DVR then let TIVO make a new DVR so that all of us who want it can have it. Choice and selection rules. Being able to watch TV the way I want rules.
> 
> So give us a reason. Tell us why. Or tell everyone that its never going to happen and that DirecTV doesn't believe in giving their customers what they want.


Actually the message is already there. If you want DLB then start looking to go elsewhere. Pretty simple.

There is what, a 1-2% chance of DLB ever happening? So get over it and move on. Obviously DirecTV is willing to lose a few hundred/thousand customers over DLB. They'll sign that many newbies up in the following 2 weeks.


----------



## Guest

bonscott87 said:


> I already stated that I watch Sunday Ticket live. I flip around like a madman. Bears may be my team but I don't need to see every play, could care less. If there is a "big" amazing play I miss I can catch it on YouTube within the hour.


Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it looks to me like you said, "I don't watch live TV":



bonscott87 said:


> Depends how you watch TV I guess. I don't watch live TV, I have better things to do with my time (there are times we don't even turn the TV on for days at a time).


Did you mean to say, "I don't watch live TV... _except when I'm watching NFL Sunday Ticket?_"


----------



## bonscott87

rcoleman111 said:


> Maybe I'm misreading your post, but it looks to me like you said, "I don't watch live TV":
> 
> Did you mean to say, "I don't watch live TV... _except when I'm watching NFL Sunday Ticket?_"


In my previous posts that you quote I mentioned that I watch Sunday Ticket live. But why does the semantics matter? It doesn't change anything. And just because I watch things they way I do doesn't make it "right" or the best way.


----------



## Guest

bonscott87 said:


> Bears may be my team but I don't need to see every play, could care less. If there is a "big" amazing play I miss I can catch it on YouTube within the hour.


Wouldn't a true Bears fan want to see every play? And can watching a replay on YouTube compare to watching it on your HDTV?


----------



## bonscott87

rcoleman111 said:


> Wouldn't a true Bears fan want to see every play? And can watching a replay on YouTube compare to watching it on your HDTV?


Fantasy Football before any team. :hurah:


----------



## Guest

bonscott87 said:


> In my previous posts that you quote I mentioned that I watch Sunday Ticket live. But why does the semantics matter? It doesn't change anything. And just because I watch things they way I do doesn't make it "right" or the best way.


You may have said that in a previous post, but not the one I quoted:



bonscott87 said:


> Depends how you watch TV I guess. I don't watch live TV, I have better things to do with my time (there are times we don't even turn the TV on for days at a time). Thus I never used DLBs in the first place. Can't miss something you never used.
> 
> I used to use it on Sunday Ticket only but when I got my first HD receiver nearly 5 years ago there was no HD DVR. Thus no DLBs. Thus I quickly got used to not using DLBs during Sunday Ticket. Thus again, I don't miss something on the HR20 that I didn't use before I got it.
> 
> So how *you'll* deal with it is how much you watch live TV I'd guess. And then if it's your top priority then you'll have to evaluate a simple forumula:
> Is DLB > then 100+ HD channels?
> or in the future is DLB > Sunday Ticket if you are a ST sub?
> 
> If so then it's time to investigate another provider who may eventually also offer those HD channels as well and offers you DLBs. It's ok to leave DirecTV, it really is.


Why does it matter? It really doesn't - it just seems odd that you would say "I don't watch live TV" when in fact you do watch live TV.


----------



## pasinfw

bonscott87 said:


> Actually the message is already there. If you want DLB then start looking to go elsewhere. Pretty simple.
> 
> There is what, a 1-2% chance of DLB ever happening? So get over it and move on. Obviously DirecTV is willing to lose a few hundred/thousand customers over DLB. They'll sign that many newbies up in the following 2 weeks.


My main point is to rail on DirecTV and their stupidity. I know what the score card is. I know what the chances are and I know that it doesn't matter if I and 100 thousand other people leave as 200 thousand other cattle will make their way to the slaughter house.

Just like you I can *****. Thats my right. So, get over that.


----------



## Rocker07

Earl Bonovich said:


> DLB was never "eliminated" on the DVR+ platform.
> It was never there to begin with. hasn't been there for 2+ years (going back to the R15)
> Sorry that everyone had the assumption that it was going to be there, just because another product by another vendor... had it....
> But it is no "secret" it isn't there, and it isn't like it had it and it was taken away.
> 
> As for a statement on why it is still not there... no... and a definitive statement on if it will ever be... no
> 
> So you all are free to "theorize" to your hearts content on why it isn't or isn't there...
> 
> But then also expect some discussion about those theories....


Earl, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Those of us that had the HD DVR Tivo's with DLB's and then were forced to upgrade (if we want to get the new HD channels) to the HR20 without DLB have had this feature "taken away" from us. We, as D* customers, had that feature and now it has been taken away.


----------



## Rocker07

shelland said:


> I got an HR20 a few weeks ago, and still haven't had much time to play with it. Although it is in our family room, where I don't tend to sit and just watch TV.
> 
> We have an HD-Tivo in the living room, where we do the majority of our daily TV viewing. I use the dual live buffers virtually every single time I sit down to watch TV. Why? I guess because I can.
> 
> I need to read up more on the subject to see how people are dealing with not having the feature. I admit I haven't used the receiver enough or read enough yet to understand how the HR20 does (or doesn't) work with the multiple tuners. As the summer winds down, I'll have time to sit down and use the receiver more. And ultimately I'll have to decide when to upgrade my HD-Tivo to an HR20 as well.
> 
> I'm not going to say it's the end of the world, or that the new receiver is a step down regardless of any other features. But I am very disappointed that I will not have a feature that I use regularly. I probably use pause and rewind more often, but I think I switch between buffers more often than even the record function.


Please feel free to come back and join in our daily b*tch session when you have fully realized your extent of your disappointment in the lack of DLB's.... It shouldn't take very long. Just some advice, quit pushing the "down" button 'cause ain't nuttin gonna happen!


----------



## Tom Robertson

bonscott87 said:


> Fantasy Football before any team. :hurah:


Real football before fantasy everyday and 3 times (slots) on Sunday. 

My feeling and understanding is that choices were made. One of those choices was to drop DLB as a first (and second) round feature to be replaced by features DIRECTV feels we will enjoy even more.

My hope is that we will eventually get both these new features and DLB. That would really excite me.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jheda

+1

and then we can close this thread and let it RIP .....



Tom Robertson said:


> My hope is that we will eventually get both these new features and DLB. That would really excite me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for a statement on why it is still not there... no... and a definitive statement on if it will ever be... no


But has anyone made any statement about problems with *SLB*?

The fact that it's still a problem has to be addressed/fixed (I don't have x18a yet, so I can't speak to that).

Not to be a pain, but *SLB *_was _promised and it still clears when it shouldn't. :nono2:

Mike

ps/ot - is it me or are the lists of who is reading a thread gone


----------



## HDTivo4Prez

I have to agree here. As an early adopter of HDTivo, this is one of the best features around especially for the advent sport fan. I can watch my beloved Steelers live and switch to another game or Red Zone channel to catch up on scores or my fantasy football lineup.


----------



## cygnusloop

bonscott87 said:


> Nobody is being strung along unless you want to be. Earl has said in no uncertain terms to not count on DLB to ever be put on the HR20 and if that is a #1 feature for you then you better start looking at other options. He's said it multiple times.
> 
> So if you are "being strung along" on the 2% chance DLB gets added to the HR20 in 1-2 years then it's your own fault. Seriously.





bonscott87 said:


> If so then it's time to investigate another provider who may eventually also offer those HD channels as well and offers you DLBs. It's ok to leave DirecTV, it really is.





bonscott87 said:


> 2) No matter what the fact is that it doesn't have DLB and that's been a well known fact for a year now. I'm not saying it's "not a big deal" at all. To many people it is. But no matter if it's important to you or not it's not a feature of the HR20 DVR. Period. As the Bengal said above, if that's your #1 must have feature then there are other providers that can meet your needs. Feel free to take advantage of that and vote with your wallet.





bonscott87 said:


> Suspend your DirecTV account and go to cable and get your DLB and after the 9 month suspension see if DirecTV has made a statement. Crazy that people here seem to "suffer" because of no DLB. Why suffer? There are other options to take.





bonscott87 said:


> Actually the message is already there. If you want DLB then start looking to go elsewhere. Pretty simple.
> 
> There is what, a 1-2% chance of DLB ever happening? So get over it and move on. Obviously DirecTV is willing to lose a few hundred/thousand customers over DLB. They'll sign that many newbies up in the following 2 weeks.


Scott:

First off, I want to say that I have been reading your posts here at DBSTalk.com (and elsewhere) for quite a while, and I have a great deal of respect for you.

However, this stock line of "If you don't like it, go somewhere else", is getting a bit tiresome. I understand you are not a big fan of this feature, but many of us are, and I for one DO NOT want to go elsewhere.

Imagine that the feature in question is one that YOU were passionate about (perhaps OTA?). How would you feel if when you respectfully requested that your long time service provider consider adding said feature, you were told to get over it and go to cable.

I have also read Earl's responses to many users questions about DLB, and I understand it is not under active development, but where do you get this "2% chance" thing? Some hyperbole posted by Earl when he was annoyed with a particularly rude user 500 or 1000posts ago? I don't recall reading that, but I could be wrong. I do recall him saying that the reason that we don't currently have DLB will be clear at some point in the future. I choose to take that as a positive, in hopes that something related, but better could be on the drawing board.

Is DLB a longshot? Perhaps. But it was also a longshot that a nice little forum like this one could get the ear of the world's largest satellite television provider, yet here we are. It was a longshot that we would see almost weekly software revisions for the HR20, specifically addressing OUR issues, and implementing OUR feature requests, yet weekly we download. It was a longshot that a group of users on this forum would be invited to be the first to test DIRECTV's newest technology, yet they do. It was a longshot that we would ever have autocorrection on the HR20, yet now we have it.

I will NOT go elsewhere. I am very happy with DIRECTV, and the implementation of DLB or maybe even something better will only make me happier. I will continue to respectfully inquire about the status of DLB from time to time. As my compadre jheda might say, "If I'm told that there will be no DLB on the HR20 with 100% certainty, then I will shut up. But until then..." I truly believe that the decision to not include a very obvious feature was made for a good reason. At least I hope it was. I am patient.

So, again, Scott, I value your contributions to this thread, and I understand your frustration with some particularly rude or disrespectful posts. But, I _know_ that I have the freedom of choice as to my service provider. I, for one, choose to fight the good fight from within. Longshots seem to have a way off paying off around here.


----------



## Que

MikeR7 said:


> I haven't lost anything.
> 
> I wouldn't count on AT&T for anything. :lol:
> 
> Just a side comment, my used HR10-250 is arriving today and I hope to have time over the weekend to hook it up and run a couple more lines from the WB68 which will now be maxed out, and get DIRECTV to activate it. I will finally be able to experience first hand this wonderful thing called DLB. I'll let you all know what I think. I think it will be a unique experiment, being a HR20 user for 6 months finally being able to understand what all the fuss is about.


Make sure you also use OTA on the HR10. So you can see what you can get MPEG-4 (from your HR20) to OTA (HR10)local channels . Let us know.


----------



## Que

shelland said:


> I got an HR20 a few weeks ago, and still haven't had much time to play with it. Although it is in our family room, where I don't tend to sit and just watch TV.
> 
> We have an HD-Tivo in the living room, where we do the majority of our daily TV viewing. I use the dual live buffers virtually every single time I sit down to watch TV. Why? I guess because I can.
> 
> I need to read up more on the subject to see how people are dealing with not having the feature. I admit I haven't used the receiver enough or read enough yet to understand how the HR20 does (or doesn't) work with the multiple tuners. As the summer winds down, I'll have time to sit down and use the receiver more. And ultimately I'll have to decide when to upgrade my HD-Tivo to an HR20 as well.
> 
> I'm not going to say it's the end of the world, or that the new receiver is a step down regardless of any other features. But I am very disappointed that I will not have a feature that I use regularly. I probably use pause and rewind more often, but I think I switch between buffers more often than even the record function.


Just to let everyone know. If you feel strongly about DLB, please go to the 1st page and copy and print one of the letters then snail mail it out.


Que said:


> .


----------



## bonscott87

cygnusloop said:


> Imagine that the feature in question is one that YOU were passionate about (perhaps OTA?). How would you feel if when you respectfully requested that your long time service provider consider adding said feature, you were told to get over it and go to cable.


No troubles. But I will say if said feature was #1 or very high on my list and it was ruining my enjoyment then you bet cable or Dish would be getting the call. Less stress in my life is #1 and if no DLB or no OTA or whatever is causing me undo stress over and above the positive side of things then for sure I'd go elsewhere, even if it meant giving up Sunday Ticket. But that's just me obviously.

My responses of "get over it and look at going elsewhere" have been directed at these people that just keep on crying and *****ing to high heaven that we "must have an answer". I'm just pointing out the answer is and has already been provided (even if people are in denial or they want to cling to that sliver of hope).

If no DLB is causing you that much stress and lack of TV watching enjoyment then perhaps it's time to look elsewhere. Crying here every day isn't going to change it. But hey, it's a free country and a free forum.

I personally have gotten over the fact of no DLB. Others should think hard and do the same or move on, if anything for their stress level. I'm big about reducing stress. But perhaps constant posts here about DLB lowers their stress level.

Ok, I'm outta here. I probably should just put this thread on ignore mode so as I don't piss more people off and sour my reputation.


----------



## Que

If this thread does add stress to you, then please don't click on it...

I think cygnusloop said it best.



> Originally Posted by boltjames
> Can I impose upon someone to give me the backstory here? Why is this simple functional request such a political issue requiring segregated threads, thread closings, etc.?





cygnusloop said:


> I can give you my take, I suppose. (I want to preface this by saying that I realize that this is "just TV", but this is a DBS forum, and here, TV is everything. I have a life, a family, a job, and am reasonably fulfilled, with or without TV. So take this in the context of a TV based forum.)
> 
> One reason is the sheer number of users that want it. That certainly is part of it. A very large number of HR20 lessees, came to this box from either SD DirecTivos, or the HR10.
> 
> Particularly in the case of the HR10, the users were essentially forced to upgrade if they wanted to get their LiL's in HD. So, they get this box (that didn't work very well at the time), and it was inexplicably missing what many feel is a key feature, and at that, for no good reason. The thing has dual tuners, and the capability to record two HD streams, how was it possible that the designers neglected to include DLB?
> 
> Second, (and the part that I don't feel you yet appreciate, BJ) is how this particular feature changed forever the way many of us watch TV at a very basic level.
> 
> While, for me, DLB is most missed for sports programming, it was a feature that I used on a daily basis. Sure, I recorded lots of programs for later viewing. In fact, I would say most of my family's viewing was done that way. Primetime programs, movies, kids shows, etc...
> 
> But, I also like to surf. That's how I would typically find new programs I wanted to record. To me, and many others, surfing with DLB is television nirvana, and the Tivo implementation was really good. When I first discovered this feature, it was one of those "where have you been all my life" kind of moments, akin to the first time I hooked up my HDTV. Absolute bliss.
> 
> So that's another part of it, passion.
> 
> I understand, BJ, that you don't share that passion, but to understand why this topic is such a hot button, you have to realize that many do feel it, deep in their gut.
> 
> Lastly, the biggest source of annoyance, I think, to those that don't care about, or are actively against DLB (yeah, I'm looking at you JeremyW ), is the sheer number of threads that pop up. So, why do these DLB threads tend to crop up on an almost daily basis? Because most people coming to the HR20 are coming from another DVR, and most of those DVR's had DLB. Whether or not the user knew to call it that.
> 
> Many, perhaps even most, of the DLB threads come from a new member, one that recently upgraded to the HR20, and the OP is often a very innocent question such as, "How do I switch tuners on the HR20?"
> 
> Someone replies, "You can't."
> 
> The new member, not knowing the history of the "Great DLB Wars" on this forum, goes off on a rant about the lack of dual buffers, as it is such an obvious feature of a dual tuner device, that most new users would never think to check ahead of time to see if it exists on the HR20.
> 
> And the flame wars begin..... again.....
> 
> Some new members get so PO'd about this (remember the passion part), they start spamming completely unrelated threads with their displeasure about the lack of DLB. Not being invested in this forum, they don't care that their actions are contrary to the goals of this forum, and many of its members. The moderators (rightly) have to step in to close threads, or ban users, and that's where it gets political.
> 
> This is why I think the idea to have ONE sticky thread for all things DLB is a great idea. When a new member posts one of these "innocent" questions, they can be referred to the sticky, and the thread can be closed before things get out of hand. Once on the sticky, the new member can rant their brains out to a sympathetic audience. No fuss, no muss. No spamming, no bans.
> 
> At least that's my take. Thanks for listening.


----------



## Que

Today I received my reply to my snail mail letter I sent.

*Make sure to include your account number and name, if you wish to send your own.* 


> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.
> 
> The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.
> 
> While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are examples all of which have DLB.
> 
> 1. Dish Network - ViP622
> 2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> 3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> 4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> 5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> 6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> 7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 8. AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.
> 
> Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.
> 
> Sincerely,


Mail to:

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550

D* reply



> RE: DIRECTV account xxxx
> 
> Dear;
> 
> I am writing in reponse to the letter you sent to the Office of the President. On behalf of DIRECTV, I want to thank you for taking the time to write in and share with us your suggestions about the use of Dual Line Buffers with our Digital Video Recorder to make DIRECTV even better.
> 
> We value your feedback and your suggestion has been forwarded to DIRECTV management.
> 
> At DIRECTV we strive to provide the finest in satellite television entertainment and outstanding customer service. If you have any further questions regarding your account, please contact us at 1-800-531-5000. or visit us online at directv.com
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Christopher
> DIRECTV Office of the President


----------



## Guest

Tom Robertson said:


> Real football before fantasy everyday and 3 times (slots) on Sunday.


I have to agree, Tom. I've never really understood the fascination with fantasy football.


----------



## Guest

Que said:


> Today I received my reply to my snail mail letter I sent.
> 
> D* reply


I like the part about "Dual Line Buffers". Sounds like they don't even know what you're talking about.


----------



## Guest

bonscott87 said:


> Fantasy Football before any team. :hurah:


The best description I've heard of fantasy football was in an interview between Bob Costas and Peyton Manning a few months agos. They called it a "high-tech geek-o-rama".


----------



## MikeR7

Que said:


> Make sure you also use OTA on the HR10. So you can see what you can get MPEG-4 (from your HR20) to OTA (HR10)local channels . Let us know.


OK, all set up, but called to activate and they said I needed to order a new card, so have to wait for that.

OTA is exactly the same as for the HR20. I do not have MPEG-4 locals yet on the HR20.

Used the DLB a little between Desperate Housewives and Cold case. I think I understand now. The pause holds on both buffers. I think I get it, but don't have any games to test it on right now. I think the 30 instead of 90 minute buffer is a little short.

Oh, the other big plus is that now I can use the PIP feature on my TV too, using the component and HDMI inputs.


----------



## tiger2005

Tom Robertson said:


> Real football before fantasy everyday and 3 times (slots) on Sunday.
> 
> My feeling and understanding is that choices were made. One of those choices was to drop DLB as a first (and second) round feature to be replaced by features DIRECTV feels we will enjoy even more.
> 
> My hope is that we will eventually get both these new features and DLB. That would really excite me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Well...I'm not sure that DLB was replaced with features D* feels we'll enjoy more, but IMO they sacrificed DLB for features that will produce more revenue streams for D*. History has shown that when there is a choice between customer satisfaction and a corporations ability to produce revenue, revenue wins 90% of the time.

VoD is the wave of the future for content providers, but the problem for D* is that they are going to be severely handicapped by the lack of a decent broadband infrastructure in this country. When compared with the instant access to VoD provided by cable, telco's, etc. they are going to be at a huge disadvantage. IMO, the time they have allotted to VoD is time that should/could have been used to continue delivering features like DLB, PiP, etc. that customers will be able to enjoy here and now. At this point, VoD will be nothing more than a glorified download service such as Apple TV. Its not really 'On Demand' when you have to wait hours to watch it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> VoD is the wave of the future for content providers, but the problem for D* is that they are going to be severely handicapped by the lack of a decent broadband infrastructure in this country. When compared with the instant access to VoD provided by cable, telco's, etc. they are going to be at a huge disadvantage. IMO, the time they have allotted to VoD is time that should/could have been used to continue delivering features like DLB, PiP, etc. that customers will be able to enjoy here and now. At this point, VoD will be nothing more than a glorified download service such as Apple TV. Its not really 'On Demand' when you have to wait hours to watch it.


I would have to say in the markets where the cableco's have the "on demand", they also offer high speed broadband...

And the telco's are pretty much teh same FIOS TV, usually has the option for fios internet.....

So it probably isn't that big of a missing areas.... that don't have access to broadband, but do have access to those features from other carriers.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> I would have to say in the markets where the cableco's have the "on demand", they also offer high speed broadband...
> 
> And the telco's are pretty much teh same FIOS TV, usually has the option for fios internet.....
> 
> So it probably isn't that big of a missing areas.... that don't have access to broadband, but do have access to those features from other carriers.


Earl,
I understand that part, but just having broadband isn't necessarily the answer. Just saying Broadband has a wide meaning. That could be any 'high-speed' service ranging from 128k and up. Do I consider 128k high-speed, no, but companies market it as such.

Anyways, perhaps I wasn't clear in my last post, but even with a standard 1.5Mbps DSL connection, how long is it going to take to download an HD movie? I don't feel like doing the math, so let's just say a LONG time and that's assuming you're actually receiving the full 1.5Mbps speed. Even an SD movie will take a significant amount of time. I'm not sure of the bitrate speed cable is able to achieve, but I'm assuming its pretty decent. Also, after talking with FiOS installers when a customer orders a movie, their on-demand service automatically opens a 100Mbps line to move the movie over. Based on my definition of On-Demand its at or very near an instantaneous ability to watch a program. IMO, D*'s service is closer to an Amazon Unbox or Apple TV solution, which is not On-Demand.


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## Que

A must have! 1768 75.98%
Don't really care about it. 130 5.59%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 429 18.44%
Voters: 2327.

Replies 1,374 Views 74,893


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## Fenway

Brand new to this site and the HR20. Came over from Charter, before that with Dish. Both had DLB, and we miss it immensely. Not leaving Direct because of it, but sure would love to have this option once again.


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## Mike P

*Me too, we don't have DLB yet?*

...


----------



## jheda

Welcome!!! this is a wonderful site IMHO where our voice is actually listend to and alot of exciting things have occurred. The HR-20 has come long way to become the reliable unit it is today thanks to many members of this site. Some of us miss the DLB feature as this thread demonstrates, and your voice is welcome to that end. 
Check into the new member thread....http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79834. Check out the wishlist and tips and tricks site..great resources.

Lastly, consider joining for $15 bucks... great value again IMHO.

Once again Welcome!!!

PS where else would a diehard yankee fan welcome someone named "fenway"? :lol: :lol:



Fenway said:


> Brand new to this site and the HR20. Came over from Charter, before that with Dish. Both had DLB, and we miss it immensely. Not leaving Direct because of it, but sure would love to have this option once again.


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## MikeR7

Is it really supposed to be that slow in setting up a program to record?


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## Fenway

jheda said:


> Welcome!!! this is a wonderful site IMHO where our voice is actually listend to and alot of exciting things have occurred. The HR-20 has come long way to become the reliable unit it is today thanks to many members of this site. Some of us miss the DLB feature as this thread demonstrates, and your voice is welcome to that end.
> 
> Lastly, consider joining for $15 bucks... great value again IMHO.
> 
> Once again Welcome!!!
> 
> PS where else would a diehard yankee fan welcome someone named "fenway"? :lol: :lol:


I just now signed up. As for the rest of it . . . . .

I grew up in Rhode Island. First baseball game I ever saw was at Fenway Pahk. However, I was a Yankee fan when I was young - I loved a winner! Back in 1962, I was lucky enough to get free tickets to Game 5 of the World Series, in Yankee Stadium. The Yankees won, 5-2, thanks to a 3 run homer by Tommy Tresh.

In 1966 I moved to SE Michigan, and immediately latched on to the Tigers. 2 years later - they won the World Series.

Then comes 2004 - and the Red Sox finally did it. I was ecstatic. Thus the nickname.

Nice to meet you jheda.


----------



## Splendor

Dual Live Buffers are a must have. I just upgraded from a DirecTiVo to the HR20-100, but until they add DLB's to the HR20 I'll have to keep my DirecTiVo box.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Splendor said:


> Dual Live Buffers are a must have. I just upgraded from a DirecTiVo to the HR20-100, but until they add DLB's to the HR20 I'll have to keep my DirecTiVo box.


Have you considered what you will do if they _never_ add DLB? They have never given any indication, at least outside of DirecTV, that they intend to do so.

The only way you will be able to receive the new national HD channels is with the H20 or the HR20. And of course, since the H20 isn't a DVR, it is safe to assume it will never have any buffers, single or otherwise.

Your options, it would seem to me, are quite limited.


----------



## ShiningBengal

MikeR7 said:


> Is it really supposed to be that slow in setting up a program to record?


Yes.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> Have you considered what you will do if they _never_ add DLB? They have never given any indication, at least outside of DirecTV, that they intend to do so.
> 
> The only way you will be able to receive the new national HD channels is with the H20 or the HR20. And of course, since the H20 isn't a DVR, it is safe to assume it will never have any buffers, single or otherwise.
> 
> Your options, it would seem to me, are quite limited.


IMHO, sooner or later D* will have *DLB* in their HD DVR.

Consider that most of the other HD DVR'S that are offered have, either in some kind of quick start guide or in the marketing on their website, that you can watch 2 show at once. The viewer doesn't need to have ever heard about *DLB* to know that's pretty cool. Marketing is a powerful thing.

In the end D* will have to keep up with, not TiVo necessarily, but E* and cable. You gotta beat the compitition.

If it isn't the HR20 then it will be what ever comes next. Again, just my opinion.  

Also, how many threads/posts are there? They must know how we feel on the subject.

Mike


----------



## gumguy12

Yes I too recently upgraded my HR10-250's to the HR20's because of the anticipation of the new HD channels and found this forum and glad I did. I very much miss the simple dual buffer of the Tivo units and it sounds like the majority of upgraders feel the same way. What a design blunder if you ask me. Perhaps it is here but I didn't search enough, but if DTV does add this, can it truly be done with a software upgrade? maybe (heaven forbid) this would require a hardware upgrade and we are all SOL. And does the upcoming HR21 Professional rack mount DVR have this?


----------



## ShiningBengal

gumguy12 said:


> Yes I too recently upgraded my HR10-250's to the HR20's because of the anticipation of the new HD channels and found this forum and glad I did. I very much miss the simple dual buffer of the Tivo units and it sounds like the majority of upgraders feel the same way. What a design blunder if you ask me. Perhaps it is here but I didn't search enough, but if DTV does add this, can it truly be done with a software upgrade? maybe (heaven forbid) this would require a hardware upgrade and we are all SOL. And does the upcoming HR21 Professional rack mount DVR have this?


.

All the hardware is there now. Yes, it can be done with software. But that isn't saying it WILL be done. I think DirecTV has higher priorities for the HR20. For one thing, it still has bugs in the software. Just take a look at the 0x18a threads for the HR20-100 and HR20-700. Also, DirecTV is interested in getting DirecTV on Demand up and running, since it represents a revenue source for them. There may be others.

But this has been an issue over a year. Seems to me if DirecTV were going to get dual live buffers added, they would have either done it by now, or announced that it would be done.

I think when (if) they start losing subscribers over it, they may thing about doing something at that time. I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## gumguy12

ShiningBengal said:


> .
> 
> All the hardware is there now. Yes, it can be done with software. But that isn't saying it WILL be done. I think DirecTV has higher priorities for the HR20. For one thing, it still has bugs in the software. Just take a look at the 0x18a threads for the HR20-100 and HR20-700. Also, DirecTV is interested in getting DirecTV on Demand up and running, since it represents a revenue source for them. There may be others.
> 
> But this has been an issue over a year. Seems to me if DirecTV were going to get dual live buffers added, they would have either done it by now, or announced that it would be done.
> 
> I think when (if) they start losing subscribers over it, they may thing about doing something at that time. I wouldn't hold my breath.


My units immediately upgraded to the new software (HR20-700's), so I will look at the software forum. I would assume the powers that be read these forums and "listen" to the end users? They get enough revenue from me and I do know if this shenanigans continues they will loose me to D*** network. I have been with DTV for over 10 years..it seems they are progressing backwards!!. I will look, but how often has the software upgraded on the 700 units? Thanx in advance


----------



## Guest

gumguy12 said:


> I would assume the powers that be read these forums and "listen" to the end users? They get enough revenue from me and I do know if this shenanigans continues they will loose me to D*** network.


If they listened to end users, they would have done something about the Superfan nonsense by now. I get the Premiere package, HD, and Sunday Ticket, but I still have to go through this nonsense every year. Sunday Ticket is my favorite programming package, but now I'm thinking about cancelling it next year. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for extra features, but nobody likes being gouged.


----------



## ronrico51

ShiningBengal said:


> Have you considered what you will do if they _never_ add DLB? They have never given any indication, at least outside of DirecTV, that they intend to do so.
> 
> The only way you will be able to receive the new national HD channels is with the H20 or the HR20. And of course, since the H20 isn't a DVR, it is safe to assume it will never have any buffers, single or otherwise.
> 
> Your options, it would seem to me, are quite limited.


His options are limited only if he sticks with Directv. Virtually everyone else offers DLB. When my current contract with D expires, I certainly will compare all providers and make a choice. If the programming I want is available on another provider, I will take a good look. I don't care about the sports packages D offers, so I don't feel married to them, as some do. I care about network HD, HBO, and a few other channels.
I like to watch college fb, and love DLB when doing so. Now that the season has cranked up again, I realize how much I miss it. 
Why doesn't the HR20 have DLB? Is it hardware? Just not capable? Or is D just afraid to implement it, as they have just gotten the HR20 somewhat stable? I tend to think it is the latter.


----------



## ShiningBengal

ronrico51 said:


> His options are limited only if he sticks with Directv. Virtually everyone else offers DLB. When my current contract with D expires, I certainly will compare all providers and make a choice. If the programming I want is available on another provider, I will take a good look. I don't care about the sports packages D offers, so I don't feel married to them, as some do. I care about network HD, HBO, and a few other channels.
> I like to watch college fb, and love DLB when doing so. Now that the season has cranked up again, I realize how much I miss it.
> Why doesn't the HR20 have DLB? Is it hardware? Just not capable? Or is D just afraid to implement it, as they have just gotten the HR20 somewhat stable? I tend to think it is the latter.


Of course he has options. He can cancel his contract with DirecTV and pay them a cancellation fee that is greater than the cost of his service for a year and go with Dish or whoever else might offer service in his area.

I considered those options and for me, they are not attractive. So I will live with DirecTV's in-development HR20 for now. I really doubt, however, that the HR20 will ever have DLB. I will look at my options once my contract is up in a little less than 2 years.

Life existed before DLB, and it will exist without it as well--at least for now.


----------



## luckydob

Earl knows why DLB isn't being implemented...says it will be obvious. So far the obvious has eluded me for over a year. It get's old waiting. To upgrade we have to downgrade in the case of the HR20-100/700. Dumb, rediculous and idiotic to not have DLB at this point.


----------



## Fenway

luckydob said:


> Earl knows why DLB isn't being implemented...says it will be obvious. So far the obvious has eluded me for over a year. It get's old waiting. To upgrade we have to downgrade in the case of the HR20-100/700. Dumb, rediculous and idiotic to not have DLB at this point.


If Earl knows, why doesn't he inform the rest of us?


----------



## cygnusloop

Fenway said:


> If Earl knows, why doesn't he inform the rest of us?


Not to speak for Earl, but I am sure he would like to. I expect he was told in confidence, and in order to maintain his relationships, he has elected to keep that confidence.

Or, he could just be screwing with us.


----------



## luckydob

cygnusloop said:


> Not to speak for Earl, but I am sure he would like to. I expect he was told in confidence, and in order to maintain his relationships, he has elected to keep that confidence.
> 
> Or, he could just be screwing with us.


Either way...why make the comment if there is no follow up/through on it? DLB was on the OLD product. DLB is MISSING on the NEW product. :nono2:


----------



## cygnusloop

luckydob said:


> Either way...why make the comment if there is no follow up/through on it? DLB was on the OLD product. DLB is MISSING on the NEW product. :nono2:


Oh, believe me, I understand what you are saying. I think the follow up/through will be forthcoming. I just can't imagine that the lack of DLB was simply an oversight, it just makes no sense.

I think there is a reason, and I think it will be known in time. And, since I have no other choice, I have chosen to be patient, although it took me a while to get there.


----------



## jheda

I think our patience will be rewarded, but that is just an opinion///


cygnusloop said:


> Oh, believe me, I understand what you are saying. I think the follow up/through will be forthcoming. I just can't imagine that the lack of DLB was simply an oversight, it just makes no sense.
> 
> I think there is a reason, and I think it will be known in time. And, since I have no other choice, I have chosen to be patient, although it took me a while to get there.


----------



## Que

jheda said:


> I think our patience will be rewarded, but that is just an opinion///


for the HR21 to have DLB???


----------



## Mike__P

cygnusloop said:


> Oh, believe me, I understand what you are saying. I think the follow up/through will be forthcoming. I just can't imagine that the lack of DLB was simply an oversight, it just makes no sense.
> 
> I think there is a reason, and I think it will be known in time. And, since I have no other choice, I have chosen to be patient, although it took me a while to get there.


I am betting this thread will continue to explode as new HR20 replacements get out in the field. I have had exactly one weekend with the HR20, and my main gripes are no DLB, 30sec slip, and persistent progress bar.

One of the things I have noticed on this forum, is the people who don't care about DLB, sure seem passionate about ragging on people who do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Mike__P said:


> I am betting this thread will continue to explode as new HR20 replacements get out in the field. I have had exactly one weekend with the HR20, and my main gripes are no DLB, 30sec slip, and persistent progress bar.
> 
> One of the things I have noticed on this forum, is the people who don't care about DLB, sure seem passionate about ragging on people who do.


I bet even more people don't know about 30s SKIP on the TiVo, then about DLB.

"Persistent progress bar" ? explain that one a bit, as the progress bar on the HR20, stays up... just about the same amount of time that it did on the TiVo platform...

As for "my knowledged" of the DLB... yes, I know why it is not being developed at this time... and Yes, I can't share it with you.

Don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR21, just as I have said don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR20.


----------



## Mike__P

Thanks for the info Earl.



> I bet even more people don't know about 30s SKIP on the TiVo, then about DLB.


Really? That surprises me because that was the best feature on the tivo. I really miss it.



> "Persistent progress bar" ? explain that one a bit, as the progress bar on the HR20, stays up... just about the same amount of time that it did on the TiVo platform...


"Persistent Progress Bar" - When I hit the 30 sec slip, the bar stays up for 4--5 seconds. The only way to clear it that I have found is either hit play or exit. On the HR10, there was a way to get the bar to clear automatically.

Don't get me wrong, overall I really do like the HR20. I am just getting used to it and these are a couple things I noticed about it right off the bat. One nice thing I noticed...You can delete an entire folder in one shot. That is a welcome improvement over the HR10.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> I bet even more people don't know about 30s SKIP on the TiVo, then about DLB.
> 
> "Persistent progress bar" ? explain that one a bit, as the progress bar on the HR20, stays up... just about the same amount of time that it did on the TiVo platform...
> 
> As for "my knowledged" of the DLB... yes, I know why it is not being developed at this time... and Yes, I can't share it with you.
> 
> Don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR21, just as I have said don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR20.


Earl, I'm not trying to pry something out of you, but would the lack of a DLB have anything to do with legalities or TIVO's patent on the original technology?


----------



## jlmza2350

I had both my HR10's replaced with HR20's on Saturday. After 2 days of using the HR20, I know I can get used to the new platform.

I also know that I will miss DLB a lot.

I went into the replacement knowing that the HR20 did not have this feature.

What is frustrating is the HR20 will not hold it's pause on it's single buffer, when switching between a recorded show and live TV. If it could perform this simple task then the workaround would be acceptable to me.

Am I doing something wrong. I do not want to record two shows and switch between them....

Does anyone know if D* is working on this issue?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Earl, I'm not trying to pry something out of you, but would the lack of a DLB have anything to do with legalities or TIVO's patent on the original technology?


None...

There is no patent or legalities with regards to DLB


----------



## jheda

First and foremost welcome!!! Your input is welcome on this and each and every thread!!!! Please check in on the new members thread and utilize tricks and tips, etc....

The issue of the single live buffer has been discussed in this thread, as well as others. I also have said if they repair the single life buffer many Dlb fanatics will be satisfied, in that we can at least jump back from live to recorded without losing our place and only recording one show. This is Microbeta's (mike) baby so to speak. lol: :lol:

I was under the impression at one recent time this was being worked on, but i defer to the moderators as to an update on this topic. I dont believe you are doing anything wrong.

Once again welcome!!!



jlmza2350 said:


> I had both my HR10's replaced with HR20's on Saturday. After 2 days of using the HR20, I know I can get used to the new platform.
> 
> I also know that I will miss DLB a lot.
> 
> I went into the replacement knowing that the HR20 did not have this:feature.
> 
> What is frustrating is the HR20 will not hold it's pause on it's single buffer, when switching between a recorded show and live TV. If it could perform this simple task then the workaround would be acceptable to me.
> 
> Am I doing something wrong. I do not want to record two shows and switch between them....
> 
> Does anyone know if D* is working on this issue?


----------



## jlmza2350

jheda said:


> I was under the impression at one recent time this was being worked on, but i defer to the moderators as to an update on this topic. I dont believe you are doing anything wrong.
> 
> Once again welcome!!!


Thanks for the welcome.

I hope someone with direct access can help out with D* plans.....


----------



## bonscott87

Mike__P said:


> Really? That surprises me because that was the best feature on the tivo. I really miss it.


Most people don't know about it becuase it's a hidden back door code that isn't documented (i.e. manual) or advertised anywhere to general Tivo users. Only people that know about it are those that have come to the online forums or know somebody that told them about it. Also it's lost any time there is a reboot and most general users aren't going to bother reactivating it over and over again.


----------



## Mike__P

bonscott87 said:


> Most people don't know about it becuase it's a hidden back door code that isn't documented (i.e. manual) or advertised anywhere to general Tivo users. Only people that know about it are those that have come to the online forums or know somebody that told them about it. Also it's lost any time there is a reboot and most general users aren't going to bother reactivating it over and over again.


Good point. I had a macro on my Universal Remote to reactivate it every time I lost power.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for "my knowledged" of the DLB... yes, I know why it is not being developed at this time... and Yes, I can't share it with you.
> 
> Don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR21, just as I have said don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR20.


Edit:
I appologize for this post. I originally quoted Earl incorrectly. With the wrong quote it didn't make sense. I have edited it to have the right quote by Earl.

Then I further responded to bonscott incorrectly. I deleted that post because it was just dumb.

Sorry guys, my trying to post at work in the middle of an analysis and with problems with the firewall I lost track of where I was. Now that I re-read the post I don't like how it's written but I'll leave it. It's only fair that I appologize for being a bonehead.

Original
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bet anyone who has gotten a DVR recently (other than from D*) knows they can...

*Simultaneously Watch Two Programs.*(page 7 of DCH6416 users guide)
*Simultaneously Watch Two Programs*(page 7 of DCT6400 users guide)
*Watch two programs at the same time with the Picture-in-Picture feature on any TV you have*(page 1 of Explorer 8000 users guide)
*SWAP Between Two Programs*(page 36 of i-Guide Users Manual{DCH6416})
*Watch Two TV Programs at the Same Time*(page 2 of iO DVR For HDTV Getting Started Guide)
*Watch two programs and easily switch between them using the remote control*(Motorola QIP6416 spec sheet)
*Single Mode: Picture-In-Picture (PIP) on any TV; record/watch two programs.*(ViP622 DVR Quick Fact sheet)

Also, these features are listed on many service providers websites and in a 1-2 page quick start guide of some sort.

Ask any one of these viewers what *DLB* is and they probably don't have a clue and don't need to. They do, however, know they can watch 2 shows at once by switching between tuners. Posters here have asked about switching between tuners without knowing what to call it. I came upon it by accident within a few weeks using the HDVR2. I didn't know the feature had a name like "Dual Live Buffers" until I started reading up on the HR20 nearly two years later. I'd be willing to bet alot of DVR users know they can switch tuners. Alot more than anyone realizes.

I understand that it's almost certainly not in the cards for the HR20 (maybe not being planed for whatevers next) and that a shame. However, nearly all other providers/DVR manufactures have the capability to "watch two programs" at once and are letting their viewers know it.

I'm not leaving D* (nor do I think anyone else should) based on this one feature but *DLB* worth pushing for.

IMHO, the fact that switching between two tuners is being marketed should be used as a strong argument for *DLB* in D* DVRs.

Mike

Edit:
My point was supposed to be that there are probably more people who know they can switch tuners to watch two shows at once that some might think. That, _plus the fact the watching 2 shows is being marketed_, should be used as an argument for DLB in D* DVRs.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MicroBeta said:


> I bet anyone who has gotten a DVR recently (other than from D*) knows they can...
> 
> *Simultaneously Watch Two Programs.*(page 7 of DCH6416 users guide)
> *Simultaneously Watch Two Programs*(page 7 of DCT6400 users guide)
> *Watch two programs at the same time with the Picture-in-Picture feature on any TV you have*(page 1 of Explorer 8000 users guide)
> *SWAP Between Two Programs*(page 36 of i-Guide Users Manual{DCH6416})
> *Watch Two TV Programs at the Same Time*(page 2 of iO DVR For HDTV Getting Started Guide)
> *Watch two programs and easily switch between them using the remote control*(Motorola QIP6416 spec sheet)
> *Single Mode: Picture-In-Picture (PIP) on any TV; record/watch two programs.*(ViP622 DVR Quick Fact sheet)
> 
> Also, these features are listed on many service providers websites and in a 1-2 page quick start guide of some sort.
> 
> Ask any one of these viewers what *DLB* is and they probably don't have a clue and don't need to. They do, however, know they can watch 2 shows at once by switching between tuners. Posters here have asked about switching between tuners without knowing what to call it. I came upon it by accident within a few weeks using the HDVR2. I didn't know the feature had a name like "Dual Live Buffers" until I started reading up on the HR20 nearly two years later. I'd be willing to bet alot of DVR users know they can switch tuners. Alot more than anyone realizes.
> 
> I understand that it's almost certainly not in the cards for the HR20 (maybe not being planed for whatevers next) and that a shame. However, nearly all other providers/DVR manufactures have the capability to "watch two programs" at once and are letting their viewers know it.
> 
> I'm not leaving D* (nor do I think anyone else should) based on this one feature but *DLB* worth pushing for.
> 
> IMHO, the fact that switching between two tuners is being marketed should be used as a strong argument for *DLB* in D* DVRs.
> 
> Mike


And all of that discredits my statement about the backdoor 30s SKIP feature?
(That less people know about 30s SKIP, as compared to DLB? (by any definition) )


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MicroBeta, you do realize that both me and bonscott are referring to the 30s SKIP feature of the TiVo platform.

Not DLB.

Even the TiVo Series 3, still has the 30s as a backdoor/undocummented feature IIRC


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Earl Bonovich said:


> And all of that discredits my statement about the backdoor 30s SKIP feature?
> (That less people know about 30s SKIP, as compared to DLB? (by any definition) )


You're right. That doesn't discredit your statement. I'm sorry to have given that impression. I really meant to have quoted...



> As for "my knowledged" of the DLB... yes, I know why it is not being developed at this time... and Yes, I can't share it with you.
> 
> Don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR21, just as I have said don't hold your breath that it will be on the HR20.


I appologize for that. I never meant to comment on the 30s skip compared with *DLB*.

The point I really wanted to make is that it's my opinion there are probably more people who know they can switch tuners that some might think. That, _plus _the fact the it's being marketed, should be used as an argument for *DLB *in D* DVRs.

Mike


----------



## jheda

Earl, is there an update on SINGLE live buffers, to the extent of correcting the pause on the live buffer while viewing a recorded one? My recollection is there were attempts to "correct" this in past ce's although unsuccessful.

Thanks!



Earl Bonovich said:


> MicroBeta, you do realize that both me and bonscott are referring to the 30s SKIP feature of the TiVo platform.
> 
> Not DLB.
> 
> Even the TiVo Series 3, still has the 30s as a backdoor/undocummented feature IIRC


----------



## Mike__P

Sorry, the confusion was probably created by me with the off topic discussion.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Earl Bonovich said:


> MicroBeta, you do realize that both me and bonscott are referring to the 30s SKIP feature of the TiVo platform.
> 
> Not DLB.
> 
> Even the TiVo Series 3, still has the 30s as a backdoor/undocummented feature IIRC


I do now. I'm having some trouble loading DBStalk right now (I've got no graphics and the format is screwed up) and thought I was responding to something else.

My previous post to you was what I wanted to say but quoted the wrong part or your post.

I need a nap and to try again when I get home (nap at home not work....). 

Sorry.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Mike__P said:


> Sorry, the confusion was probably created by me with the off topic discussion.


No it's my fault for not paying attnetion.

Mike


----------



## jjcaudle

I am not going back to Directv untill I get another year out of my S3 Tivo, and they get a better quality HD lineup. And that HR20 sucks...as does the Directv remote and their channel guide menu. Tivo rocks.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jjcaudle said:


> I am not going back to Directv untill I get another year out of my S3 Tivo, and they get a better quality HD lineup. And that HR20 sucks...as does the Directv remote and their channel guide menu. Tivo rocks.


Hope your cable-co doesn't go to Switched Video by then.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> Earl, is there an update on SINGLE live buffers, to the extent of correcting the pause on the live buffer while viewing a recorded one? My recollection is there were attempts to "correct" this in past ce's although unsuccessful.
> 
> Thanks!


No, there is no update to it.


----------



## sshams95

Earl Bonovich said:


> None...
> 
> There is no patent or legalities with regards to DLB


Interesting....I've been out of town for a week and I haven't check this thread in quite awhile as I've also been busy checking DOD and updating CE via Slingbox.

I have the HR20 & HR10 in the same room so I can have my own DLB/PIP to watch more than one football game. I recorded a few college football games on my HR10 and I came home to see nothing recorded as DVR service was not activated for some reason (even though I've been on for many years).

Called DTV Tech and while I was waiting for HR10 to reset, we were discussing the HR20 and I told him it would be perfect if it had DLB. He told me there is no DLB because of the patent issue with TIVO. I asked him how does DISH have it on their receiver, he told me that there was a big lawsuit and that DISH is paying heavy royalties to TIVO because of it.

Not sure if I believe it or not, I always find Earl's info as good as gold. Never heard of the lawsuit, that's for sure....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

While there is a "lawsuit" between TiVo and EchoStar, it doesn't have anything to do with DLB.


----------



## jlmza2350

jheda said:


> Earl, is there an update on SINGLE live buffers, to the extent of correcting the pause on the live buffer while viewing a recorded one? My recollection is there were attempts to "correct" this in past ce's although unsuccessful.
> 
> Thanks!





Earl Bonovich said:


> No, there is no update to it.


Earl, can you elaborate on your response if possible.

Is this something they are working on?

Does D* consider the inability to hold a pause of the single live buffer while watching a recorded program a bug?

Thanks


----------



## Steve

Based on an original proposal by *hoopsbwc34*, we put a suggestion on the WISH LIST today that might not be a bad DLB work-around, for those seeking to watch two games in progress at once, e.g.:

*Remember when the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.*

The idea is to hit RECORD on one tuner, and then use the PREV button to toggle between that recording and LIVE TV. With this solution, each tuner will be at the point you left it when you last toggled.

If you think there is any value to this idea, please take or update the current WISH LIST survey. /steve


----------



## tnedator

Is there any reasonable workaround to no DLBs? 

With football season around the corner, this is going to be a killer. If you record on both channels (less than Ideal I know) is there a quick toggle between both shows that are recording?

I was showing my wife how to use the HR20 last night and she asked me where the Live TV button was, and I told her she could use exit to leave menus/guide. She asked me how to switch tuners, and I told her you can't, and she was upset. This is about as non-tech a person as you can get, and she has become to rely on DLBs. 

It's hard to fathom how with all the feedback Direct has been getting since the beginning on this issue that they haven't addressed it.


----------



## bakerfall

tnedator said:


> Is there any reasonable workaround to no DLBs?
> 
> With football season around the corner, this is going to be a killer. If you record on both channels (less than Ideal I know) is there a quick toggle between both shows that are recording?
> 
> I was showing my wife how to use the HR20 last night and she asked me where the Live TV button was, and I told her she could use exit to leave menus/guide. She asked me how to switch tuners, and I told her you can't, and she was upset. This is about as non-tech a person as you can get, and she has become to rely on DLBs.
> 
> It's hard to fathom how with all the feedback Direct has been getting since the beginning on this issue that they haven't addressed it.


I'm not sure about 2 recording shows, but I know that "previous" flips between 1 recording show and live tv very well.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jlmza2350 said:


> Earl, can you elaborate on your response if possible.
> 
> Is this something they are working on?
> 
> Does D* consider the inability to hold a pause of the single live buffer while watching a recorded program a bug?
> 
> Thanks


Elaborate on my response:

Yes, they are aware of the issue.
Yes, it is something on their list to address


----------



## jlmza2350

Earl Bonovich said:


> Elaborate on my response:
> 
> Yes, they are aware of the issue.
> Yes, it is something on their list to address


Thanks for the response.

Now that I know they are working on this issue, I can live without DLB on the HR 20's


----------



## johnperkins21

So do we know if DirecTV is working to get any sort of DLB functionality, either through a new agreement with Tivo or on some upcoming device? If the HR21 isn't going to have it, it makes me think that they just don't think it's important. I guess I need to mail them a letter to let them know how important it is to me.


----------



## cygnusloop

bakerfall said:


> I'm not sure about 2 recording shows, but I know that "previous" flips between 1 recording show and live tv very well.


The problem is, that it doesn't hold the pause point, as has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.


----------



## oenophile

cygnusloop said:


> The problem is, that it doesn't hold the pause point, as has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.


Aaaahhhhhh! I had thought it would....entering my first football season w/o TiVo......aaaaaahrrahhhhh!


----------



## EricRobins

I am not sure I understand the purpose of this thread or the 1429 replies. 

So we all want DLB. D* knows we want DLB. Can someone explain to me how close to 1500 different complaints can make a difference?


----------



## ShiningBengal

EricRobins said:


> I am not sure I understand the purpose of this thread or the 1429 replies.
> 
> So we all want DLB. D* knows we want DLB. Can someone explain to me how close to 1500 different complaints can make a difference?


There you go again with the logical questions! Hush!


----------



## boltjames

Hey Bufferites, what's up?

Sorry I've been away for awhile, but I've been driving my new ride everywhere and enjoying life away from the computer.

Do you have Dual Buffers yet? Or are you still pleading for someone from D* to hear your pleas?










BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

Bufferites? Hey, BJ, this thread has cooled down quite a bit without your occasional flame to heat things up.


----------



## Lord Vader

Yeah, really 

"Bufferites???" That is so...so...Senator Craig-like.


----------



## Que

cygnusloop said:


> The problem is, that it doesn't hold the pause point, as has been discussed many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times.


You would think by now that is high on the list but after a year maybe not.

If they would get SLB working right, then they could move on to DLB. I still don't understand why it is on all other DVR and not D*.

Maybe D* needs to buy one of these: and see how it works 

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

I would be happy with a SLB work around.


----------



## Steve

Que said:


> I would be happy with a SLB work around.


If you haven't already updated your Wish List survey, this work-around request went up this week:

*Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.*

/steve


----------



## Que

EricRobins said:


> I am not sure I understand the purpose of this thread or the 1429 replies.
> 
> So we all want DLB. D* knows we want DLB. Can someone explain to me how close to 1500 different complaints can make a difference?


Internet, plus this is just a small user base. Now if we had 1839 people snail mail a letter to D* it might help. *(PAGE 1)*

Also if D* ever send out a mailer asking what customer what in a DVR.  That's not going to happen OR If D* does *ANY* kind of DVR research they might find out.


----------



## Que

A must have! 1840 76.16%
Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
Voters: 2416

Replies 1,437
Views 78,583


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## MikeR7

Que said:


> Also if D* ever send out a mailer asking what customer what in a DVR.  That's not going to happen OR If D* does *ANY* kind of DVR research they might find out.


Maybe they did but asked the wrong people.:lol:


----------



## jheda

Hey, we never thought the hr20 would get autocorrection....


----------



## Rocker07

jheda said:


> Hey, we never thought the hr20 would get autocorrection....


...and maybe someday people will want to upgrade to the HR20 instead of being forced to.


----------



## bonscott87

Rocker07 said:


> ...and maybe someday people will want to upgrade to the HR20 instead of being forced to.


No one's putting a gun to your head and "forcing" you to upgrade. If you want the new HD channels from DirecTV you need an MPEG4 receiver and that is the H20 or HR20. If you don't want it then you are free to go elsewhere.

I'm not saying "take it or leave it" but honestly, if you feel you are being forced into something you don't want or aren't happy with then why not find another provider that can satisfy you and be happy? Why be unhappy?

Heck, I was "forced" to upgrade my receivers 8 years ago when my SD locals were added to the 119 satellite *which none of my receivers could get*. Didn't get free upgrades either and had to also buy the 3 LNB dish to boot. I seriously looked at cable and Dish at the time and felt it was worth it to stay with DirecTV.

Those with UTV were "forced" to upgrade to a DirecTivo they didn't want when their UTV died.
People that had the old "wink" interactive receivers lost those services.
People are "forced" to upgrade if they want the new interactive services.
Dish Network subs are "forced" into getting an MPEG4 capable receiver if they want to keep Voom and other HD channels or get new one (gee, just like DirecTV, imagine that).
Cable subs are "forced" to get a digital receiver as channels move off the analog tier.
Cable subs will be "forced" to get new receivers and DVRs when Switched Video hits .

The march goes on to the future.

Things change. And when they do you need to make a choice. If you force yourself into doing something you don't want to do you are just doing yourself a disservice.

And thus endeth Philosophy 101...


----------



## Que

I just hope they don't turn off my HR10 for a very long time. I have no need to upgrade. I don't have the HD package. I use OTA for my HD and get everything from there. So as long as it doesn't die. I'm set. Right now the HR20 doesn't offer me anything.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Que said:


> I just hope they don't turn off my HR10 for a very long time. I have no need to upgrade. I don't have the HD package. I use OTA for my HD and get everything from there. So as long as it doesn't die. I'm set. Right now the HR20 doesn't offer me anything.


If you get your locals OTA and you don't have any premium channels, and you don't like anything in the present HD package, you have no reason to upgrade. However, most people are upgrading to get the HD content that is arriving later this month and on into 2008.

Seems like you don't care much about TV, if you are content to watch network and local TV--and I have no problem with that. But it doesn't seem like you have very little to need DLB for!


----------



## Que

ShiningBengal said:


> If you get your locals OTA and you don't have any premium channels, and you don't like anything in the present HD package, you have no reason to upgrade. However, most people are upgrading to get the HD content that is arriving later this month and on into 2008.
> 
> Seems like you don't care much about TV, if you are content to watch network and local TV--and I have no problem with that. But it doesn't seem like you have very little to need DLB for!


I watch my HD on OTA and use DLB all the time. Most of the time the one turner is on CNN/E!/Comdey and I stuff the other one. Wife watches soaps on both of them, pause and even watch a 3 soap that she recorded.

In time I'm sure when D* get all the bandwidth they need. I might change over to get the HD package but, right now I only watch/need local OTA HD. Although Hockey is about to start up so I might miss a few games on FOX HD.


----------



## mtnagel

Que said:


> I watch my HD on OTA and use DLB all the time. Most of the time the one turner is on CNN/E!/Comdey and I stuff the other one. Wife watches soaps on both of them, pause and even watch a 3 soap that she recorded.


Just curious, but why would you leave a recording to watch something live? Why not just watch the one whole recorded soap FFing through commercials while recording the two? I'm sure she wouldn't have to watch any commercials on the other two by the time she finished watching the first. And she wouldn't need DLB.


----------



## Rocker07

bonscott87 said:


> No one's putting a gun to your head and "forcing" you to upgrade. If you want the new HD channels from DirecTV you need an MPEG4 receiver and that is the H20 or HR20. If you don't want it then you are free to go elsewhere.
> 
> I'm not saying "take it or leave it" but honestly, if you feel you are being forced into something you don't want or aren't happy with then why not find another provider that can satisfy you and be happy? Why be unhappy?
> 
> Heck, I was "forced" to upgrade my receivers 8 years ago when my SD locals were added to the 119 satellite *which none of my receivers could get*. Didn't get free upgrades either and had to also buy the 3 LNB dish to boot. I seriously looked at cable and Dish at the time and felt it was worth it to stay with DirecTV.
> 
> Those with UTV were "forced" to upgrade to a DirecTivo they didn't want when their UTV died.
> People that had the old "wink" interactive receivers lost those services.
> People are "forced" to upgrade if they want the new interactive services.
> Dish Network subs are "forced" into getting an MPEG4 capable receiver if they want to keep Voom and other HD channels or get new one (gee, just like DirecTV, imagine that).
> Cable subs are "forced" to get a digital receiver as channels move off the analog tier.
> Cable subs will be "forced" to get new receivers and DVRs when Switched Video hits .
> 
> The march goes on to the future.
> 
> Things change. And when they do you need to make a choice. If you force yourself into doing something you don't want to do you are just doing yourself a disservice.
> 
> And thus endeth Philosophy 101...


Spare me the freakin' lecture OK. I've been with D* since there was a D*. I get so F'N tired of you guys telling us if we don't like it we can go elsewhere. In my ignorance I just assumed DLBs were standard features of all DVRs. When I "upgraded", so that I could receive the new HD channels, I found out it wasn't. I was confused and disappointed that D* would "force" me to "upgrade" to a DVR that had less features than the one it was replacing. I guess according to you I should just happily take anything D* gives me and never question anything they do. My advice to you is that if you're just going to come to this thread and lecture us with "take it or leave it" messages then don't come here at all. Leave this thread to those of us that want to discuss our frustration about the lack of DLBs. I will not sit around and blindly worship at the altar of D* like many of you. When they do something stupid, I'm going to call them on it and leaving DLBs out of the HR20 was stupid....PERIOD!


----------



## bonscott87

Rocker07 said:


> I guess according to you I should just happily take anything D* gives me and never question anything they do.


Actually I believe my advice was to realize the reality of the situation and look to move elsewhere if DLB is your number one feature. 

Hey, no hard feelings here. Complain away even if it won't do any good, at least with the current generation receivers. But nobody has forced anybody into anything, that's what I take issue with.


----------



## luckydob

bonscott87 said:


> Actually I believe my advice was to realize the reality of the situation and look to move elsewhere if DLB is your number one feature.
> 
> Hey, no hard feelings here. Complain away even if it won't do any good, at least with the current generation receivers. But nobody has forced anybody into anything, that's what I take issue with.


No hard feelings, but maybe your comments are better suited for the "D* is almighty" thread. D* Forced this upgrade in order to get the HD locals and now the other HD channels. The new DVR should at least be as good as the "old" unit, but it ISN'T. It can't even decipher what is a repeat and what is a first run much less DLB. DLB is something that can be done, but D* is focusing on more important things like a catchy GUI. You know...the useful stuff. DLB was on the old unit, it should be on the new unit. Simple, but then again...the stuff we have to put up with on the HR20 should show you that D* probably has NO CLUE on how to implement DLB, much less recording a program correctly each day/week. JMHO


----------



## Rocker07

bonscott87 said:


> Actually I believe my advice was to realize the reality of the situation and look to move elsewhere if DLB is your number one feature.
> 
> Hey, no hard feelings here. Complain away even if it won't do any good, at least with the current generation receivers. But nobody has forced anybody into anything, that's what I take issue with.


I apologize for going off on you like that. It's just really frustrating to me and I think I was just venting at you when it probably should have been directed elsewhere. Actually HD and DLBs are both equally important to me, why I can't have both is what puzzles me. I wish D* would just at least give us a serviceable work around. Who knows if all this *****ing gets us DLB's in the next generation of receivers then it is all worth it.


----------



## stogie5150

luckydob said:


> No hard feelings, but maybe your comments are better suited for the "D* is almighty" thread. D* Forced this upgrade in order to get the HD locals and now the other HD channels. The new DVR should at least be as good as the "old" unit, but it ISN'T. It can't even decipher what is a repeat and what is a first run much less DLB. DLB is something that can be done, but D* is focusing on more important things like a catchy GUI. You know...the useful stuff. DLB was on the old unit, it should be on the new unit. Simple, but then again...the stuff we have to put up with on the HR20 should show you that D* probably has NO CLUE on how to implement DLB, much less recording a program correctly each day/week. JMHO


Oh wow, someone ELSE that gets it. This can't be good. For Directv that is. I STILL am looking for the box that they told me was better than my TIVO. The HR20 isn't it. Maybe its in there somewhere, I'll have to get a screwdriver...

Latest frustration with the lack of DLB's was last night...
had the LSU game on one channel and the NA$CAR race on the other, I changed the channel to catchup on the race and dangit if I didn't miss a touchdown run in the LSU game...all could have been prevented if I could just PAUSE, press the DOWN ARROW, and switch to the other tuner, I wouldn't have missed a thing.

Oh but wait, I forgot. I can download movies at the speed of smell and have them deleted before I am ready for them to be deleted because someone put an arbitrary limit on time for downloaded content. I forgot. How stupid of me.

I know Directv will be THRILLED with what I am about to type, but they are becoming the Verizon Wireless of the TV world. Brilliant service, HORRIBLE crippled equipment.

DAMMIT I hate this thing.:nono2:


----------



## NickD

bonscott87 said:


> Actually I believe my advice was to realize the reality of the situation and look to move elsewhere if DLB is your number one feature.
> 
> Hey, no hard feelings here. Complain away even if it won't do any good, at least with the current generation receivers. But nobody has forced anybody into anything, that's what I take issue with.


Of course I was forced into it. Yes I had the option of changing providers but that was not cost effective. Yes, I also had the option of not going HD, but I needed a new tv at the time and I bought a HD tv. This is how I became forced into having the HR20. Sure I could have bought a HR10, but that was going to become obsolete by not be able to receive the future signals., so therefore I was forced into the HR20. In addition to it I was told by a D CSR that this box was an improvement, an uprgrade from my tivo box. This to me means that the box includes all of the current features that I have plus either improvements to the functionality and/or additional features. Should I believe what the CSR told me, absolutely, why not, they are a representative of the company that I am acquiring my service from. I should not have to search the internet to find out about D's equipment. What did we do before the days of the internet? We called the company we wanted to do business with and took them for their word about their product.


----------



## bonscott87

stogie5150 said:


> Latest frustration with the lack of DLB's was last night...
> had the LSU game on one channel and the NA$CAR race on the other, I changed the channel to catchup on the race and dangit if I didn't miss a touchdown run in the LSU game...all could have been prevented if I could just PAUSE, press the DOWN ARROW, and switch to the other tuner, I wouldn't have missed a thing.


I know it's not quite as easy but if you were really just watching those 2 things I would have recorded both and then you can swap between the 2 using the Prev button and it should retain pause points as you swap. Or at the least you could have rewound the LSU game to see the TD.


----------



## jobedoggie

Wow, this is decidedly a heated topic.

I'm one of the newbies who had a Tivo and upgraded to the HR20 and was looking for the "Live TV" button to switch tuners, with no luck. Had no idea what DLB was until I read some of this thread. You are certainly an educational and entertaining bunch!! 

I liked it, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I can take it or leave it, and voted such.


----------



## Doug Brott

NickD said:


> We called the company we wanted to do business with and took them for their word about their product.


Did you ask them if the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers? Did the CSR tell you that the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers?


----------



## Doug Brott

stogie5150 said:


> I know Directv will be THRILLED with what I am about to type, but they are becoming the Verizon Wireless of the TV world. Brilliant service, HORRIBLE crippled equipment.
> 
> DAMMIT I hate this thing.:nono2:


The HR20 is not going to satisfy every single person. The same could be said for the TiVo. For me HD was the deal breaker and if that meant switching to a different platform then so be it. As it turns out, I like the HR20 better than the TiVo, but I understand that can not be said of everyone.


----------



## Que

If you do feel strongly about DLB. The best way to tell DIRECTV is to write them. Make sure you include your account number and name.

Attention: President,

I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.

I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.

Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.

Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.

I'm writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.

I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV's plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.

Thank you for your time,

[Letter #2]

Dear Sir,

I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.

As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.

Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.

The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.

While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1. Dish Network - ViP622
2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
8. AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.

Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.

Sincerely,

*Mail to:

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550*


----------



## Rocker07

stogie5150 said:


> Oh wow, someone ELSE that gets it. This can't be good. For Directv that is. I STILL am looking for the box that they told me was better than my TIVO. The HR20 isn't it. Maybe its in there somewhere, I'll have to get a screwdriver...
> 
> Latest frustration with the lack of DLB's was last night...
> had the LSU game on one channel and the NA$CAR race on the other, I changed the channel to catchup on the race and dangit if I didn't miss a touchdown run in the LSU game...all could have been prevented if I could just PAUSE, press the DOWN ARROW, and switch to the other tuner, I wouldn't have missed a thing.
> 
> Oh but wait, I forgot. I can download movies at the speed of smell and have them deleted before I am ready for them to be deleted because someone put an arbitrary limit on time for downloaded content. I forgot. How stupid of me.
> 
> I know Directv will be THRILLED with what I am about to type, but they are becoming the Verizon Wireless of the TV world. Brilliant service, HORRIBLE crippled equipment.
> 
> DAMMIT I hate this thing.:nono2:


Preach on brother......This is the first Sunday of the NFL season and it is really going to suck without DLBs......if you're not a sports fan I just don't think you get it.


----------



## Rocker07

Doug Brott said:


> Did you ask them if the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers? Did the CSR tell you that the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers?


Not really a fair question. Most regular folks have no idea what DLBs are all they know is they can watch and pause two shows at once. I had no idea the HR20 didn't have it and i've been with D* from the start. I just assumed the box that I was "upgrading" to would actually be an "upgrade". I thought it would have ALL of the feature of the box it was replacing and then some.......jokes on me, right? D* dropped the ball bigtime. There is no reason why I can have the new HD's and DLB's.


----------



## n3ntj

Que - two good letters you posted here. I am going to modify to my needs and email to customer service via my online account. I am going to mail a hardcopy to D* per the address you provided. While we may be preaching to the choir, we need to keep pressing D* to let them know the majority of us want this feature and we want it now.


----------



## NickD

Doug Brott said:


> Did you ask them if the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers? Did the CSR tell you that the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers?


Of course not, why would I ask about specific features when I am being told that the HR20 is an improvement over the tivo box. Improvement means better in my opinion, not lacking in features but improving and adding to the current features I was accustomed to.

I knew going into the HR20 that it was missing DLB because I do read the threads here, so I knew what I was getting into. It is those individuals who do not read forums and scour the internet for information that are getting the short end of the stick here. They are being told that they are upgrading, getting the new box, locking into a 2 year commitment and then finding out that hey why does my box not do this or that. Then it is to late, they are locked into a committment.


----------



## luckydob

Doug Brott said:


> Did you ask them if the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers? Did the CSR tell you that the HR20 has Dual Live Buffers?


Should we have to ask for something that is supposed to be an "upgrade"? No.


----------



## orion

I registered just so I could chime in on this thread. Not having DLB is EXTREMELY disappointing and is indeed a deal breaker for me. Shame on me for not doing my research ahead of time, but shame on DTV for leaving this BASIC feature out of their "upgrade".

While HD content is important, being able to pause, flip, watch, pause, flip back, repeat is more important. With baseball playoffs coming up and football season now, I will be looking for a way to return this box. 

There aren't enough pros to outweigh this con.


----------



## GaryReno

Not having DLB is a definite minus. This may cause me not to switch from TW cables HD DVR to D*.


----------



## MikeR7

Report on my first ST day with the new(used) HR10-250 and HR20's, one on the same TV as the TIVO, one upstairs on the other TV.

1. I decided to record both the Vikings-Falcons and Packers-Eagles on the TIVO, because I determined I wanted more than the 30 minute buffer that watching them both live gave me. This worked great, mainly because the pause point works on both recorded buffers. *The HR20 should have that at a minimum.* Watched the Viking game mostly live, but caught up on the Packers game at reasonable break points. Given the early ending to the Viking game. Caught up with the Packers to almost live, until the unfortunate situation of the game being cut off. Did not think to move to the SD version until it was too late. Anyway saw the replay of the winning kick. No harm, no foul.

2. Recorded as many games as I could on the HR20's. Had room for all but four, but I have them set up to record on the 30 minute replays tonight. Watched the Bears and Bucs games, and the first half of the Lions game. Watching the in progress recorded Giants-Pokes game right now, on pause while I type this.

3. Conclusion on DLB: I've used it for some college games and like it, but more importantly would be to have pause points that hold on both recording buffers. I cannot see jumping around to other games other than the main two I've decided to watch at noon and 3:15. I'll watch the other recordings when I have time. 30 minute live buffer is not long enough for me.


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## Lord Vader

Mike, 

You can easily change your live buffer on TIVOs to 60, 90-minute or longer.


----------



## Sirshagg

Lord Vader said:


> Mike,
> 
> You can easily change your live buffer on TIVOs to 60, 90-minute or longer.


While this can definitely b done I'm not so sure I'd call it easy.


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, it's not that difficult, even for someone as novice as me when it comes to these things. I just followed the instructions and did it correctly on all my DTIVOs.


----------



## mtnagel

MikeR7 said:


> Report on my first ST day with the new(used) HR10-250 and HR20's, one on the same TV as the TIVO, one upstairs on the other TV.
> 
> 1. I decided to record both the Vikings-Falcons and Packers-Eagles on the TIVO, because I determined I wanted more than the 30 minute buffer that watching them both live gave me. This worked great, mainly because the pause point works on both recorded buffers. *The HR20 should have that at a minimum.* Watched the Viking game mostly live, but caught up on the Packers game at reasonable break points. Given the early ending to the Viking game. Caught up with the Packers to almost live, until the unfortunate situation of the game being cut off. Did not think to move to the SD version until it was too late. Anyway saw the replay of the winning kick. No harm, no foul.
> 
> 2. Recorded as many games as I could on the HR20's. Had room for all but four, but I have them set up to record on the 30 minute replays tonight. Watched the Bears and Bucs games, and the first half of the Lions game. Watching the in progress recorded Giants-Pokes game right now, on pause while I type this.
> 
> 3. Conclusion on DLB: I've used it for some college games and like it, but more importantly would be to have pause points that hold on both recording buffers. I cannot see jumping around to other games other than the main two I've decided to watch at noon and 3:15. I'll watch the other recordings when I have time. 30 minute live buffer is not long enough for me.


What do you mean the pause point doesn't work?


----------



## MikeR7

Woops, my bad. It does work. I must be being brainwashed reading this thread. It works just fine. Guess we don't have any need for DLB at all!:lol:


----------



## MikeR7

Lord Vader said:


> Well, it's not that difficult, even for someone as novice as me when it comes to these things. I just followed the instructions and did it correctly on all my DTIVOs.


Is this in the instruction booklet?


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## Lord Vader

No, it's on another site that deals specifically with stuff like this. PM me for details.


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## whaleboy

I got a message on my answering machine from DTV saying they want to upgrade my HD equipment for some new HD channels they will be getting. I bought an HR10-250 when I signed up for Dtv 3 years ago. So I figured I'd do some checking online to see what was up. New HD channels (lots of 'em).... Cool! I won't be able to get them on my current DVR... Bad. The newer DVR's do not use Tivo software... Bad (I really hate the Dtv interface :nono: ). For the new channels, I guess I'll have to get used to it. Then I find out I can't switch between tuners? WHAT? I thought that was a standard dual tuner DVR thing??? I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine getting by without such a basic function. Its just one of those things that once used to, there's no going back. My wife feels the same. 

Bottom line is that it is a deal breaker. I'll just keep going with my current unit until they switch the present HD channels to the new sat next year, then I'll start looking back to cable to see what they have to offer at that time. I really hope Dtv can get that very basic feature working before then.

Very disappointed. 

-David


----------



## anubys

First week of NFL ST without DLB...I used my HR20 as a third buffer and relied mainly on the HR10 to watch 2-3 other games...

because of the lack of DLB, all the interactive capabilities were of no use to me on the HR20...


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## jheda

_What do you mean the pause point doesn't work?
__________________
- Matt



MikeR7 said:



Woops, my bad. It does work. I must be being brainwashed reading this thread. It works just fine. Guess we don't have any need for DLB at all!:lol:

Click to expand...

_Just so we are clear and informative, you guys are saying that a pause point works on the hr10-250; or, on the hr20, the pause point works while recording 2 shows at one time and carefully toggling between these 2 recording shows, correct?

It is well documented the pause point does not hold on the live buffer of the hr20 while toggling between the live buffer and ONE recorded show.


----------



## Steve

jheda said:


> _It is well documented the pause point does not hold on the live buffer of the hr20 while toggling between the live buffer and ONE recorded show._


_100% correct. And it only "bookmarks" the spot you left on the RECORDED show if you first go to the PLAYLIST and PLAY it. If you just hit RECORD and then toggle back and forth, the RECORDED show continues to run as well. /steve_


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## jheda

orion, jobedoggie, GaryReno, whaleboy....first and foremost, welcome!!!!!! We look foward to your input on this and other topics. Please if you havent check in on our new member site http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79834..many great resources...

My story is similiar to yours, upgraded a year ago to get local channels in HD through satellite, couldnt figure out how to toggle between two channels, found this site, and the rest is history. I have come to love the hr20 more than my sdtivo, for many reasons documented, although admittingly I miss my dlb especially this time of year for baseball, when i love flipping through games while pausing my yanks in the heated playoff race.

Against all odds, I havent given up on one day, in this or a subsequent unit, DLB in some form will be implimented. Posts clearly indicate though its not in the near future. For myself, the benefits of the HR20 way outweigh the lossof DLB. But i do miss it dearly.

Good time to give Que credit for dilligent work on this site!!!!!!


----------



## jheda

Steve said:


> 100% correct. And it only "bookmarks" the spot you left on the RECORDED show if you first go to the PLAYLIST and PLAY it. If you just hit RECORD and then toggle back and forth, the RECORDED show continues to run as well. /steve


I really miss it STEVE these next few weeks, where you, vinny and I would monitor redsox, seattle, detroit clevelend etc.....


----------



## MikeR7

jheda said:


> _What do you mean the pause point doesn't work?
> __________________
> - Matt
> 
> _
> 
> Just so we are clear and informative, you guys are saying that a pause point works on the hr10-250; or, on the hr20, the pause point works while recording 2 shows at one time and carefully toggling between these 2 recording shows, correct?
> 
> It is well documented the pause point does not hold on the live buffer of the hr20 while toggling between the live buffer and ONE recorded show.


Ah, I knew I was half right!!:lol:

But I think I have for me what the best way to watch two games at once will be, record them both and switch back and forth, regardless of which DVR. I am not going to screw around trying to extend the HR10's 30 minute buffer.


----------



## Que

whaleboy said:


> I got a message on my answering machine from DTV saying they want to upgrade my HD equipment for some new HD channels they will be getting. I bought an HR10-250 when I signed up for Dtv 3 years ago. So I figured I'd do some checking online to see what was up. New HD channels (lots of 'em).... Cool! I won't be able to get them on my current DVR... Bad. The newer DVR's do not use Tivo software... Bad (I really hate the Dtv interface :nono: ). For the new channels, I guess I'll have to get used to it. Then I find out I can't switch between tuners? WHAT? I thought that was a standard dual tuner DVR thing??? I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine getting by without such a basic function. Its just one of those things that once used to, there's no going back. My wife feels the same.
> 
> Bottom line is that it is a deal breaker. I'll just keep going with my current unit until they switch the present HD channels to the new sat next year, then I'll start looking back to cable to see what they have to offer at that time. I really hope Dtv can get that very basic feature working before then.
> 
> Very disappointed.
> 
> -David


Welcome to the forum whaleboy!

Yup, D*'s DVR(s) are the only one that doesn't have DLB or even SLB. Right now....


----------



## Steve

MikeR7 said:


> But I think I have for me what the best way to watch two games at once will be, record them both and switch back and forth, regardless of which DVR.


Unfortunately, you can't use PREV to switch back and forth between two PLAYLIST playbacks on the HR20, AFAIK, so you will lose the "bookmark" point on at least one of them, even if they are both RECORDING. /steve


----------



## mtnagel

Steve said:


> Unfortunately, you can't use PREV to switch back and forth between two PLAYLIST playbacks on the HR20, AFAIK, so you will lose the "bookmark" point on at least one of them, even if they are both RECORDING. /steve


But STOP, cursor up or down, PLAY works and maintains the pause points.


----------



## Steve

mtnagel said:


> But STOP, cursor up or down, PLAY works and maintains the pause points.


Ahh. Didn't think of that! Not elegant, but certainly functional. Short of DLBs, hopefully D* will strongly consider our recent Wish List request:
*
Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.*

/steve


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## jheda

Its pretty clear DLB is not coming to this generation of hr20s...so i really hope this would be considered.

As i said before, the auto correction was a wonderful surprise, so who knows?


Steve said:


> Ahh. Didn't think of that! Not elegant, but certainly functional. Short of DLBs, hopefully D* will strongly consider our recent Wish List request:
> *
> Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.*
> 
> /steve


----------



## mtnagel

Steve said:


> Ahh. Didn't think of that! Not elegant, but certainly functional. Short of DLBs, hopefully D* will strongly consider our recent Wish List request:
> *
> Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK.*
> 
> /steve


And only one more "click" than DLB on a Tivo. (of course you have to be recording both things on the HR20).


----------



## Que

*From 06-11-07:*



Que said:


> A must have! 1253 75.48%
> Don't really care about it. 105 6.33%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 302 18.19%
> Voters: 1660.


*Today*

A must have! 1885 76.25%
Don't really care about it. 137 5.54%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 450 18.20%
Voters: 2472.

Replies 1,485
Views 80,706


----------



## raott

mtnagel said:


> And only one more "click" than DLB on a Tivo. (of course you have to be recording both things on the HR20).


And what you put in small text is the problem. Hit record once, turn the station, hit record again, want to change games - first you have to tell it which show to stop recording, then hit record again.

It'd be so much simpler just to enable the thing (like just about every other dual tuner provider has) instead of forcing their high dollar customers (ie sunday ticket) to suffer through a workaround.


----------



## mtnagel

raott said:


> And what you put in small text is the problem. Hit record once, turn the station, hit record again, want to change games - first you have to tell it which show to stop recording, then hit record again.
> 
> It'd be so much simpler just to enable the thing (like just about every other dual tuner provider has) instead of forcing their high dollar customers (ie sunday ticket) to suffer through a workaround.


Whenever I've posted about the DLB "workaround", I've always qualified it by saying it's only for flipping between 2 things. I fully admit that it fails for >2, but that's not the way I watch TV, so that isn't important to me. And having to record them doesn't bother me either because with watching 2 football games on the Tivo, I always had to record them because I would almost always be 30+ mins behind on one or both of the games as I like to watch every snap of 2 games and not jump around to >2 games while missing some plays.


----------



## jheda

A very fair answer. My new mantra is, adopting from other great posters, fix the single line buffers. Then you only have to record *one *show as the live 90 minute buffer holds the pause. With the apparant miniscule chance of dlb being impimented, it would go a long way to resolve the slb...and asap with baseball at its best and nfl launched.

Even jeremy W. might find logic in the above.... :lol:



mtnagel said:


> Whenever I've posted about the DLB "workaround", I've always qualified it by saying it's only for flipping between 2 things. I fully admit that it fails for >2, but that's not the way I watch TV, so that isn't important to me. And having to record them doesn't bother me either because with watching 2 football games on the Tivo, I always had to record them because I would almost always be 30+ mins behind on one or both of the games as I like to watch every snap of 2 games and not jump around to >2 games while missing some plays.


----------



## mtnagel

jheda said:


> A very fair answer.


Thanks. I try to be fair. I realize that not everyone watches tv the same way. I'm just trying to help some people that can benefit from the workaround.


----------



## whaleboy

jheda said:


> A very fair answer. My new mantra is, adopting from other great posters, fix the single line buffers. Then you only have to record *one *show as the live 90 minute buffer holds the pause. With the apparant miniscule chance of dlb being impimented, it would go a long way to resolve the slb...and asap with baseball at its best and nfl launched.
> 
> Even jeremy W. might find logic in the above.... :lol:


Sorry, but having just starting to research the new DVR, what is wrong with the single buffer?

Thanks

-David


----------



## cygnusloop

whaleboy said:


> Sorry, but having just starting to research the new DVR, what is wrong with the single buffer?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -David


It doesn't hold the pause point on the live buffer when switching between it and the recording program. The buffering program always goes back to live TV when you switch back to it.

I agree with my compadre, jheda, that fixing this problem with the SLB would go along way towards taking the sting out of not having DLB.

And,:welcome_s to DBSTalk, Whaleboy.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

whaleboy said:


> Sorry, but having just starting to research the new DVR, what is wrong with the single buffer?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -David


In addition to not holding a pause point when it should it also clears the buffer when it shouldn't.

For example...

Your watching channel _A_.
You decide to watch one or your previously recorded shows.
You go back to live TV.
Even though it's still on channel _A_ you find that the buffer is gone.

You can't rewind because you found the show interesting.

You can't rewind because you forgot the news was on and you wanted to catch the weather.

You can't rewind because, for unknown reasons, the buffer restarted from the point you returned to live TV.

Take a look at these posts:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1098721&postcount=202
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=84453

Mike


----------



## jheda

Mike, theoretically i the slb was working properly, i could record the yankee game, watch your mets, go to the redsox, pause the sox, check in on the yanks,recorded, and then come back to the paused sox, correct?


----------



## Steve

cygnusloop said:


> It doesn't hold the pause point on the live buffer when switching between it and the recording program. The buffering program always goes back to live TV when you switch back to it.
> 
> I agree with my compadre, jheda, that fixing this problem with the SLB would go along way towards taking the sting out of not having DLB.
> 
> And,:welcome_s to DBSTalk, Whaleboy.


+1. It's on the current Wish List:

"*Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK. *"

If any of you haven't already voted for this feature, please do so here. TIA. /steve


----------



## pigskins

How they could develop, and launch, a product that goes backwards shows complete lack of, well, everything. Like many others new to this thread and forum, I didn't know what the feature was called until I knew it was missing. I wouldn't have known what to ask for. Since the receiver was free, it's probably not in my best interest to turn it down. Put me down as in favor of implementing DLB ASAP, whether it be the next model or the one after that.


----------



## wjbjr

I have avoided the slb problem by keeping the HR10 connected alongside the HR20, and using it as the primary receiver -- at least until if and when the HD channels are removed. (Local HD is via OTA.) 

The HR20 will be used only when necessary for the few new HD channels of interest and for the few occasions when more than two live channels are required for recording/viewing.


----------



## whaleboy

cygnusloop said:


> And,:welcome_s to DBSTalk, Whaleboy.


Gee, just gets better and better... Thanks for the welcome, but to be honest this place just gets me depressed.  In the span of two days I've gone from perfectly happy with Dtv to excited about the new HD lineup to downright anger at them for messing up on the most basic of features and leaving me up s**t creek without a paddle (or DVR I guess...).

Anyone using two DVRs without having to use two remotes (or 3)? Just trying to figure my options...

Thanks

-David


----------



## cygnusloop

whaleboy said:


> Gee, just gets better and better... Thanks for the welcome, but to be honest this place just gets me depressed.  In the span of two days I've gone from perfectly happy with Dtv to excited about the new HD lineup to downright anger at them for messing up on the most basic of features and leaving me up s**t creek without a paddle (or DVR I guess...).
> 
> Anyone using two DVRs without having to use two remotes (or 3)? Just trying to figure my options...
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -David


Don't get too down, my new friend. Go over to the HD Anticipation Thread, and think about the gobs and gobs of HD goodness coming our way.

Or, go over to the Cutting Edge Forum and read about the new DIRECTV On Demand VOD service that is currently being beta tested by members of this site (lucky ol' me included). Maybe take a look at the Remote Booking service that will be launched soon.

This thread should help you with controlling two HR20's with one remote.

While I, too, lament the lack of DLB, the HR20 is a really nice DVR that otherwise has a lot going for it. And one never knows what the future may hold with regards to DLB. The improbable has a way of becoming reality around here.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jheda said:


> Mike, theoretically i the slb was working properly, i could record the yankee game, watch your mets, go to the redsox, pause the sox, check in on the yanks,recorded, and then come back to the paused sox, correct?


Theoretically, Yes.
Once you change to the Sox, you would lose the Mets.
But, pausing the Sox & starting the recorded Yankees and back to the Sox is supposed to get you to right to where you paused.
At this point if you hit the _Prev_ channel button to bop back-n-fourth between Yanks & Sox.

All this as long as the _SLB_ holds the pause point, which it doesn't, and if it doesn't clear the buffer. 
It doesn't clear often. 
I've only had it happen three times since x18a. 
However, it shouldn't happen at all.

Mike


----------



## Que

pigskins said:


> How they could develop, and launch, a product that goes backwards shows complete lack of, well, everything. Like many others new to this thread and forum, I didn't know what the feature was called until I knew it was missing. I wouldn't have known what to ask for. Since the receiver was free, it's probably not in my best interest to turn it down. Put me down as in favor of implementing DLB ASAP, whether it be the next model or the one after that.










To the forum Pigskins.

I don't think it will make this one and Earl says don't count on the next one (HR21) 
So you/we might have to look at other options.

If you get time copy/paste and mail out that snail mail letter on page 1, if you want DLB that bad.


----------



## jgriffin7

wjbjr said:


> I have avoided the slb problem by keeping the HR10 connected alongside the HR20, and using it as the primary receiver -- at least until if and when the HD channels are removed. (Local HD is via OTA.)
> 
> The HR20 will be used only when necessary for the few new HD channels of interest and for the few occasions when more than two live channels are required for recording/viewing.


I agree with this. I consider my HR20 forced on me so I can get the new HD. I still prefer my HR10-250 in every way.

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but here's my greatest beef about lack of DLB and how the HR20 handles it. I'm addressing a situation where I'm not even trying to flip back and forth... First, I don't like commercials, nor would I prefer to sit through the boring parts of a game. So I generally wait a bit while a game is recording and then begin watching. If I've timed things just right, I'll arrive at the end of the game just about in time to catch up to live TV. But what happens when the game runs over, I've not padded the recording, and the tuner the game was being recorded on is not the 'active tuner'? (I just made up that description; I'm stating it's not the tuner I last watched on live TV.) So I get to the end of the recording, realize there's more game to watch (the really good part!!), I exit out to live TV, and I see something other than the game. Well on the HR10-250, I just press arrow down, hop over to the other tuner, and catch the end (absolutely provided it's been less than 30 minutes). Now, I might accidentally see the end of the game, but I've got really good at closing my eyes, switching tuners, and then jumping back to the beginning of the buffer. On the HR20, I curse D*, log on to DBSTalk, and read about other people's misery as well.

I've stated in other forums: I consider DLB to be a *basic *function of any DVR with two tuners.


----------



## christo76

jgriffin7 said:


> I agree with this. I consider my HR20 forced on me so I can get the new HD. I still prefer my HR10-250 in every way.
> 
> I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but here's my greatest beef about lack of DLB and how the HR20 handles it. I'm addressing a situation where I'm not even trying to flip back and forth... First, I don't like commercials, nor would I prefer to sit through the boring parts of a game. So I generally wait a bit while a game is recording and then begin watching. If I've timed things just right, I'll arrive at the end of the game just about in time to catch up to live TV. But what happens when the game runs over, I've not padded the recording, and the tuner the game was being recorded on is not the 'active tuner'? (I just made up that description; I'm stating it's not the tuner I last watched on live TV.) So I get to the end of the recording, realize there's more game to watch (the really good part!!), I exit out to live TV, and I see something other than the game. Well on the HR10-250, I just press arrow down, hop over to the other tuner, and catch the end (absolutely provided it's been less than 30 minutes). Now, I might accidentally see the end of the game, but I've got really good at closing my eyes, switching tuners, and then jumping back to the beginning of the buffer. On the HR20, I curse D*, log on to DBSTalk, and read about other people's misery as well.
> 
> I've stated in other forums: I consider DLB to be a *basic *function of any DVR with two tuners.


Go read this thread. If you like it, reply with a +1 to bump it back to the top so others can see it, that missed it as well.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=97634


----------



## jdouglas2000

I am all for Dual Buffers. Used the feature constantly with my HR10-250.


----------



## jheda

well, ironically my buffer cleared today as i was watching letterman recorded, i went to live news and something was happining big (cop shot in miami) and i went to live and there was no buffer............



MicroBeta said:


> All this as long as the _SLB_ holds the pause point, which it doesn't, and if it doesn't clear the buffer.
> It doesn't clear often.
> I've only had it happen three times since x18a.
> However, it shouldn't happen at all.
> 
> Mike


----------



## LOBO2999

jheda said:


> well, ironically my buffer cleared today as i was watching letterman recorded, i went to live news and something was happining big (cop shot in miami) and i went to live and there was no buffer............


I have had this happen alot , HATE the HR20


----------



## reggie

I was tempted to post this as a response in a different thread, but I wanted to keep the DLB discussion in the DLB thread.

Some have suggested getting a second HR20 to get the benefits of DLB. Even if it I got the second for free, I have a problem with the waste of it all - from the power being consumed, to the manufacturing, to the shipping, to even having to expend this kind of effort just to get an industry standard feature.

It's like buying two toasters because you want your bread toasted on both sides.


----------



## cygnusloop

reggie said:


> I was tempted to post this as a response in a different thread, but I wanted to keep the DLB discussion in the DLB thread.


Good for you.



reggie said:


> Some have suggested getting a second HR20 to get the benefits of DLB. Even if it I got the second for free, I have a problem with the waste of it all - from the power being consumed, to the manufacturing, to the shipping, to even having to expend this kind of effort just to get an industry standard feature.


While a second HR20 does have it's advantages, it is a whole lot of trouble for a simple feature, agreed.



reggie said:


> It's like buying two toasters because you want your bread toasted on both sides.


!rolling !rolling !rolling 
That's about the funniest analogy that I have heard regarding DLB, and quite appropriate IMHO.

:welcome_s to DBSTalk, reggie.


----------



## whaleboy

reggie said:


> I was tempted to post this as a response in a different thread, but I wanted to keep the DLB discussion in the DLB thread.
> 
> Some have suggested getting a second HR20 to get the benefits of DLB. Even if it I got the second for free, I have a problem with the waste of it all - from the power being consumed, to the manufacturing, to the shipping, to even having to expend this kind of effort just to get an industry standard feature.
> 
> It's like buying two toasters because you want your bread toasted on both sides.


I've been doing some checking, and I guess you can get two Hr20's, and control them with one remote, but one thing confuses me. How do I know which DVR I'm controlling vs which one I'm looking at? I can see what the remote is set to via a switch on the remote, correct? How do I know which one I'm looking at on the TV? Obviously If I change the channel and nothing happens, I'm not looking at the right one. But I've also inadvertently changed the wrong tuner, which may be buffering something I want to see.

On the Tivo unit, one button and I change the tuner and know that what I am controlling is what I'm looking at. Can I even get close to that with the two HR20 setup? Also, on my TV, I have to cycle through 6 or 8 inputs... I can't just toggle between two. Any way around that?

On that note, I'm likely going to need a new TV soon... my Sony LCD rear projection set is on the brink, and if I can't get Sony to fix it (defective part or poor design... tons of them are doing the same), I'll need a new set. It won't be a sony, nor a projection set (too much to go wrong with those). So... It'll likely be a good old fashioned flatscreen LCD, 50 or 52 inch. Anything anyone here is really happy with? PIP and input toggle would be a plus .

Sorry about the subject change...

Thanks

-David


----------



## tuff bob

I'll just throw in my 2 cent DLB thing ... going from the H10 to the HR20 certainly feels like I just went back to a single tuner unit. I forgot how convenient it was to be able to flip to the 2nd tuner, see if there's anything better on, and come back to the thing I was watching with the buffer if I failed. Also the HR20 not having a full "menu" screen seems to make it feel less powerful than the HD Tivo - it was much less obvious how I would record something and/or playback recorded content (ie. pressing the "List" button was less obvious than pressing Tivo > Now Playing). I know my wife is going to hate it so I have to let her keep her dual tuner tivo in the bedroom for sure.

The only "better" thing I've found with the HR20 is the RF remote :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

tuff bob said:


> I'll just throw in my 2 cent DLB thing ... going from the H10 to the HR20 certainly feels like I just went back to a single tuner unit. I forgot how convenient it was to be able to flip to the 2nd tuner, see if there's anything better on, and come back to the thing I was watching with the buffer if I failed. Also the HR20 not having a full "menu" screen seems to make it feel less powerful than the HD Tivo - it was much less obvious how I would record something and/or playback recorded content (ie. pressing the "List" button was less obvious than pressing Tivo > Now Playing). I know my wife is going to hate it so I have to let her keep her dual tuner tivo in the bedroom for sure.
> 
> The only "better" thing I've found with the HR20 is the RF remote :lol:


I'd say the addition of mpeg4 tuners are the best addition over the HR10.


----------



## tuff bob

Sirshagg said:


> I'd say the addition of mpeg4 tuners are the best addition over the HR10.


Since DirecTV managed somehow not to get "5 LNB dish" on my work order, it doesn't make any difference.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jheda said:


> well, ironically my buffer cleared today as i was watching letterman recorded, i went to live news and something was happining big (cop shot in miami) and i went to live and there was no buffer............


If you haven't already, could you post this in the appropriate software issues thread (x18a or CE).

This needs attention by D*.

Thanx

Mike


----------



## MikeR7

Since no one has posted to this thread since Friday here goes:

My name is MikeR7 and I am a footballaholic.

Seriously, with the 3 DVR's now I am able to record between college and pro 15-20 games a weekend plus watch a bunch live. I didn't use the DLB on the HR10 at all.

I had the thought in the shower this morning that I thought having all this to watch would be really fun. 

Actually, Saturday morning I had to delete about 4 games that I didn't watch from the previous week. 

In this case I don't think more is better. This weekend I am going to limit myself to 5, 6 games and maybe the redzone channel.

I honestly think I came close to ODing on football.:lol: 

Doesn't help that I think I am coming down with a cold.:nono2:


----------



## Que

A must have! 1932 *76.55%*
Don't really care about it. 138 5.47%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 454 17.99%
Voters: 2524.

Replies *1,514*
Views * 83,284 *


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I can't decide what is worse no new Hd channels today or DLB.


----------



## Sirshagg

DC_SnDvl said:


> I can't decide what is worse no new Hd channels today or DLB.


That's easy - no new HD


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Sirshagg said:


> That's easy - no new HD


If we get the new HD by the end of the week I would say it is the lack of DLB.


----------



## fasTLane

Could be that dual live buffers are impossible on this unit due to design paramaters. Due to patent restrictions? :eek2:


----------



## jheda

There is no evidence to either. Both have been discussed thoroughly in this thread, and ruled out in one form or another by knowlegeable people. There appears to be a concious reason on D*s part, but it has not been shared with the public.



fasTLane said:


> Could be that dual live buffers are impossible on this unit due to design paramaters. Due to patent restrictions? :eek2:


----------



## Lord Vader

jheda said:


> There is no evidence to either. Both have been discussed thoroughly in this thread, and ruled out in one form or another by knowlegeable people. There appears to be a concious reason on D*s part, but it has not been shared with the public.


Indeed. Earl himself, in response to a somewhat general question I asked him recently, explained that the lack of DLB is NOT because of hardware issues, patent issues, or legal issues. He couldn't be specific about _why_ D* hasn't activated DLB, just that they have their reason(s) not to.

Now IMHO, if we were to find out these real reasons, whether via Earl posting them--he's not going to--or via some other reputable means, I'd bet I and a lot of others would be very upset. I just have this feeling that the real reason is something that would truly anger us DTV customers.


----------



## bradfjoh

Lord Vader said:


> Now IMHO, if we were to find out these real reasons, whether via Earl posting them--he's not going to--or via some other reputable means, I'd bet I and a lot of others would be very upset. I just have this feeling that the real reason is something that would truly anger us DTV customers.


Agree wholeheartedly. The only way to anger us more than the keeping of this secret (why they don't have DLB) would only be to make public the reasoning - or more likely, the lack thereof.


----------



## fasTLane

Has that scent of old fish about it. :yesman:


----------



## argonaut

As soon as I can find a stamp, my letter will be in the mail.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fasTLane said:


> Could be that dual live buffers are impossible on this unit due to design paramaters. Due to patent restrictions? :eek2:


Do a little searching (i would but its bed time).

There are a couple of execelent technical explainations that prove that the HR20 actually can do it now.

We just don't have control of it.

Yes, I said the HR20 actually does it now. :eek2:

Mike


----------



## Rocker07

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. Earl himself, in response to a somewhat general question I asked him recently, explained that the lack of DLB is NOT because of hardware issues, patent issues, or legal issues. He couldn't be specific about _why_ D* hasn't activated DLB, just that they have their reason(s) not to.
> 
> Now IMHO, if we were to find out these real reasons, whether via Earl posting them--he's not going to--or via some other reputable means, I'd bet I and a lot of others would be very upset. I just have this feeling that the real reason is something that would truly anger us DTV customers.


I've been with D* for many years. With the lack of DLBs and now the "on again, off again" HD stuff I can honestly say that I have been looking into what other companies out there offer. I never would have said that a year ago.


----------



## fasTLane

MicroBeta said:


> There are a couple of execelent technical explainations that prove that the HR20 actually can do it now.
> 
> We just don't have control of it.
> 
> Yes, I said the HR20 actually does it now. :eek2:


HR20 does what now?


----------



## jheda

buffers 2 channels at the same time. There are excellent explanations by smarter people then me on this thread, ill try to find them for you...


fasTLane said:


> HR20 does what now?


----------



## fasTLane

Buffering two channels is not the point. 

How it buffers these two channels is the point. 

Being able to pause one buffer and flip to the other buffer is the point. 

Or am I missing something?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fasTLane said:


> Buffering two channels is not the point.
> 
> How it buffers these two channels is the point.
> 
> Being able to pause one buffer and flip to the other buffer is the point.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


Buffering two channels _is_ the point.

It proves the hardware capability exists.

It just isn't accessable to the viewer.

I would accept being able to switch tuners with the buffers in tact even if it doesn't hold a pause point.

Mike


----------



## raott

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. Earl himself, in response to a somewhat general question I asked him recently, explained that the lack of DLB is NOT because of hardware issues, patent issues, or legal issues. He couldn't be specific about _why_ D* hasn't activated DLB, just that they have their reason(s) not to.


There is an old post of Earls somewhere on this site that I stumbled on while searching for info on another issue. Earl stated D* had reasons (plural), why no DLB, he stated some he agreed with, some he didn't agree with.


----------



## jheda

I can say with 100% confidence if Earl could share info on DLB with us, he would.


----------



## fasTLane

MicroBeta said:


> I would accept being able to switch tuners with the buffers in tact even if it doesn't hold a pause point.


That would mean no control of the buffer. Useless. :nono2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fasTLane said:


> That would mean no control of the buffer. Useless. :nono2:


If I could switch tuners and rewind...that would be a far cry better than *SLB*.

Your right in that it isn't the *DLB *we're used to. I want the full capability...to have it hold pause points. All I meant was that some functionality would be better than none. I wasn't giving up, just thinking out loud so to speak.

However, I don't understand how it would be useless. The only thing that would be different would be the pause point. If the buffers were in tact then trick play would still work.

Speaking only for myself, I refuse to cry all or nothing. I went into this knowing the HR20 didn't have *DLB*. True, I fully expected that it would come sooner or later. How could it not when _most_ other DVRs have it? 

Needless to say I'm dissapointed. Even more so since *SLB* doesn't work correctly.

Since it's clear the HR20 isn't going to get it, I'd be willing to get something now in hopes that I'll get it all in a later unit. It isn't ideal but I'm just thinking out loud.....

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

You know, I have this sinking feeling that one reason, among others, that D* doesn't activate DLB is because they'd prefer its customers acquire an additional HR20. That way, they ding you for the lease fee/additional receiver fee and the cost of the "leased" receiver. Think about it. _They're making money by *not* having DLB._


----------



## fasTLane

Does this thread hold a clue ...?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365999


----------



## xtc

Lord Vader said:


> You know, I have this sinking feeling that one reason, among others, that D* doesn't activate DLB is because they'd prefer its customers acquire an additional HR20. That way, they ding you for the lease fee/additional receiver fee and the cost of the "leased" receiver. Think about it. _They're making money by *not* having DLB._


Even DirecTV can't be that evil or retarded. If their business plan is to make profit by eliminating the DLB, then they need some serious corporate restructuring. Cause thats just about the dumbest plan imaginable. The real deal is they either don't care that subscribers won't get this feature, or it costs them an extra buck to have this feature on their DVRs, so they eliminated it.

I remember back in the days when Airlines actually served food, American Airlines saved half a million dollars a year by eliminating 1 olive from their salads. Eliminating the DLB feature is probably just another way DirecTV can save a buck.


----------



## kaz

or they are just trying to perfect SLB before even trying DLB.


----------



## Lord Vader

xtc said:


> Even DirecTV can't be that evil or retarded.


*Don't be so sure of that.*


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> You know, I have this sinking feeling that one reason, among others, that D* doesn't activate DLB is because they'd prefer its customers acquire an additional HR20. That way, they ding you for the lease fee/additional receiver fee and the cost of the "leased" receiver. Think about it. _They're making money by *not* having DLB._


Interesting...

Bean Counters setting policy?!?

Not out of the realm of possibility.

I'd prefer to think that it's not that sinister.

But............

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

MicroBeta said:


> Interesting...
> 
> Bean Counters setting policy?!?


*Indeed.*


----------



## ShiningBengal

Nonsense. There is virtually zero market for people who want DLB and would go through the expense, bother, and clutter of having two receivers instead of one. Particularly since it is really a klutzy work-around.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> Nonsense. There is virtually zero market for people who want DLB and would go through the expense, bother, and clutter of having two receivers instead of one. Particularly since it is really a klutzy work-around.


I guess such a thing would have to have involved planning.

When the DirecTV created their own DVRs, the _bean counter_ would have had to know the importance of *DLB*.

A thought exercise.....

Since a significant number of subscribers get the HR20 for _"free"_, maybe *DLB* which wasn't ready yet, became.....useful....

Not very probable. And I honestly don't believe it's true.

But..............

Mike

Note: I don't for a minute think D* is losing money on my sub. By "_free_", I only meant that, like others, I recieved some programming discounts that equaled the cost of the box.


----------



## lman

fasTLane said:


> Does this thread hold a clue ...?
> 
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365999


After reading that thread I found it interesting that there was a comment made about the HR20 having no delay when watching live TV to avoid the echo effect. I was told earlier on this forum that the HR20 was not designed to watch live TV and that any program that you wanted to watch should be recorded so there would be a buffer as a work around for DLB. Seems like a contradiction.


----------



## Mr. Furious

HiDefGator said:


> While some serious couch potatoes might consider dual buffers a crucial feature my guess would be that the majority of users have never made use of them.


Yeah, I'm kind of ambivalent toward dual buffers. We've had D* DVRs of various types for years now, and I can't think of a time that either I or my wife actually used them. I support their implementation to help out the folks who use them, but, being the selfish person I am, I'd prefer that issues that directly impact me are worked on first.


----------



## Lord Vader

ShiningBengal said:


> Nonsense. There is virtually zero market for people who want DLB and would go through the expense, bother, and clutter of having two receivers instead of one. Particularly since it is really a klutzy work-around.


*Nonsense? Hardly.*


----------



## mitemom

Is there any chance someone will develop an adapter or emulator for the Cable Card so that the comcast HDTIVO can be used with D*? 

I just keep dreading the day when my DTIVO HD dies or no longer gets the current HD channels. I can't live without my 2 live buffers. I can live with without more HD channels.


----------



## Seismo

Mr. Furious said:


> We've had D* DVRs of various types for years now, and I can't think of a time that either I or my wife actually used them.


Wow, I thought everyone used them. For me, this was one of the hardest things to get used to doing without since "up"grading to the HR20.
Let's say I'm watching the Falcons get clobbered on channel 5. Commercial comes on. I switch over to the other tuner and I see that the Packers just scored. I can rewind up to 30 minutes and see what I missed.
I get caught up and a commercial comes on. I switch back over to the Falcons and I see that they just gave up 21 points in the last 60 seconds. I can now rewind that game and see all the stuff I missed.

Tivo got it right. It's tough living without DLBs on a sunday afternoon.


----------



## GregM5

Seismo said:


> Wow, I thought everyone used them. For me, this was one of the hardest things to get used to doing without since "up"grading to the HR20.
> Let's say I'm watching the Falcons get clobbered on channel 5. Commercial comes on. I switch over to the other tuner and I see that the Packers just scored. I can rewind up to 30 minutes and see what I missed.
> I get caught up and a commercial comes on. I switch back over to the Falcons and I see that they just gave up 21 points in the last 60 seconds. I can now rewind that game and see all the stuff I missed.
> 
> Tivo got it right. It's tough living without DLBs on a sunday afternoon.


I agree! I use Tivo the same way and REALLY miss that feature when using the HR20.


----------



## rlnoonan

GregM5 said:


> I agree! I use Tivo the same way and REALLY miss that feature when using the HR20.


+1

I still have my Tivo and sometimes I'll watch that instead of the HR20 for just this reason. Probably won't happen much when we get more HD channels, but it is a feature that even after 10 months I still have trouble enjoying the HR20 without it.


----------



## fasTLane

Seismo said:


> Tivo got it right. It's tough living without DLBs on a sunday afternoon.


Georgia folk know a good thing when they see one.


----------



## MX727

Without DLB, more HD channels are useless for me.


----------



## vicmeldrew

Whenever my TIVOs go bad for good and there is still no DLB on DTV I will go; I do not watch commercials and spend my time watching two live shows more often than not - especially sports. This is my decision obviously to make but it will be Direct TVs loss. I can live without the Sunday ticket because that is just one day of the week 4 months of the year.


----------



## Rocker07

Seismo said:


> Wow, I thought everyone used them. For me, this was one of the hardest things to get used to doing without since "up"grading to the HR20.
> Let's say I'm watching the Falcons get clobbered on channel 5. Commercial comes on. I switch over to the other tuner and I see that the Packers just scored. I can rewind up to 30 minutes and see what I missed.
> I get caught up and a commercial comes on. I switch back over to the Falcons and I see that they just gave up 21 points in the last 60 seconds. I can now rewind that game and see all the stuff I missed.
> 
> Tivo got it right. It's tough living without DLBs on a sunday afternoon.


AMEN!!! Ah, the beauty of the DLB.......I miss it so much.


----------



## JAYPB

Seismo said:


> Wow, I thought everyone used them. For me, this was one of the hardest things to get used to doing without since "up"grading to the HR20.
> Let's say I'm watching the Falcons get clobbered on channel 5. Commercial comes on. I switch over to the other tuner and I see that the Packers just scored. I can rewind up to 30 minutes and see what I missed.
> I get caught up and a commercial comes on. I switch back over to the Falcons and I see that they just gave up 21 points in the last 60 seconds. I can now rewind that game and see all the stuff I missed.
> 
> Tivo got it right. It's tough living without DLBs on a sunday afternoon.


I've just had to confront reality. I added an HR20 to my account around 3 months ago in light of the {at the time} pending announcement of the arrival of more HD in the coming months. Now that those 21 channels went live, I told the wife that I'd LIKE to upgrade the HR10 in the kitchen to an HR20. Her response: "You told me that I can't switch back and forth between 2 channels with the 'LiveTV' button on that new DVR....so I don't want it"!!!! Imagine my horror....I still have 4 HR10's....and because of the WAF I can't put a new HR20 in the kitchen....even trying to sell her on ALL the new HD programming didn't help.

Reality is: We record most EVERYTHING in our house and watch what WE want to watch at a later time/date.....BUT with 3 kids running around, there are times (i.e. breakfast/dinner) where we TOTALLY utilize both buffers to pop back and forth between (ie.) the Simpsons....and the news....or Family Guy and Sports Center...etc... in other words, shows we don't REALLY care to record...but would like to pop back and forth between while doing other things (i.e. MULTITASKING). I also use the buffers for MLB games as well when I get home at night and not just for NFLST games.

So, in my house, it looks like I'll have at least 1 10-250 around till she's no longer useful (the TIVO that is....not the wife.....:hurah: )


----------



## Que

JAYPB said:


> I've just had to confront reality. I added an HR20 to my account around 3 months ago in light of the {at the time} pending announcement of the arrival of more HD in the coming months. Now that those 21 channels went live, I told the wife that I'd LIKE to upgrade the HR10 in the kitchen to an HR20. Her response: "You told me that I can't switch back and forth between 2 channels with the 'LiveTV' button on that new DVR....so I don't want it"!!!! Imagine my horror....I still have 4 HR10's....and because of the WAF I can't put a new HR20 in the kitchen....even trying to sell her on ALL the new HD programming didn't help.
> 
> Reality is: We record most EVERYTHING in our house and watch what WE want to watch at a later time/date.....BUT with 3 kids running around, there are times (i.e. breakfast/dinner) where we TOTALLY utilize both buffers to pop back and forth between (ie.) the Simpsons....and the news....or Family Guy and Sports Center...etc... in other words, shows we don't REALLY care to record...but would like to pop back and forth between while doing other things (i.e. MULTITASKING). I also use the buffers for MLB games as well when I get home at night and not just for NFLST games.
> 
> So, in my house, it looks like I'll have at least 1 10-250 around till she's no longer useful (the TIVO that is....not the wife.....:hurah: )


Hehe. I am in the same boat as you but, I love DLB as much as she does. There is no way we will upgrade unless it has DLB. So it looks like I going to the end and then make my choice then.


----------



## Halo

My first reaction to DLB was on the Ultimate TV. This is when they first came out, even before the 2nd tuner was enabled on the DirecTivo, so the UTV was the only thing that had two tuners. I was immediately impressed with the GUI and all the DVR features (this was my first DVR), but when I switched from one tuner to the next, then back, and realized just how great DLB was I was more than impressed.

This was 2001, on a far inferior piece of hardware than the HR20, but the Microsoft development team that coded the UTV absolutely hit a home run. It is rare that I am so impressed with a new technology. DLB was a big part of that.

Whatever the reason to intentionally cripple the HR20 by excluding DLB is not well reasoned. It is clearly a desired and almost necessary feature to a high percentage of users. What dumb remf suit made this decision? Or was it lack of skill from their firmware people? Neither would surprise me.

The HR20 will never get an "A" grade from me without DLB and the Directv service in general won't either. Other feature improvements on the HR20 are nice, and the HD expansion is awesome, but the absence of the DLB feature is still badly missed.


----------



## CoachGibbs

Halo said:


> My first reaction to DLB was on the Ultimate TV. This is when they first came out, even before the 2nd tuner was enabled on the DirecTivo, so the UTV was the only thing that had two tuners. I was immediately impressed with the GUI and all the DVR features (this was my first DVR), but when I switched from one tuner to the next, then back, and realized just how great DLB was I was more than impressed.
> 
> This was 2001, on a far inferior piece of hardware than the HR20, but the Microsoft development team that coded the UTV absolutely hit a home run. It is rare that I am so impressed with a new technology. DLB was a big part of that.
> 
> Whatever the reason to intentionally cripple the HR20 by excluding DLB is not well reasoned. It is clearly a desired and almost necessary feature to a high percentage of users. What dumb remf suit made this decision? Or was it lack of skill from their firmware people? Neither would surprise me.
> 
> The HR20 will never get an "A" grade from me without DLB and the Directv service in general won't either. Other feature improvements on the HR20 are nice, and the HD expansion is awesome, but the absence of the DLB feature is still badly missed.


I couldn't agree more.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Halo said:


> My first reaction to DLB was on the Ultimate TV. This is when they first came out, even before the 2nd tuner was enabled on the DirecTivo, so the UTV was the only thing that had two tuners. I was immediately impressed with the GUI and all the DVR features (this was my first DVR), but when I switched from one tuner to the next, then back, and realized just how great DLB was I was more than impressed.


Don't want to burst your bubble, but DLB on the UTV only worked when the PIP window was on, otherwise it doesn't work like it does on the Tivo.

I do. however, agree with you that UTV was a great DVR and a head of its time, its too bad it had to end, and too bad that D* didn't use its coding for their new HR20.


----------



## argonaut

Some good news ...

I just got off the phone with DirecTV. Recently I wrote a nice letter to the President (see OP) regarding DLB and they decided to call me back.

A gentleman named Steve called me and said he worked for the President and was just down the hall. He was very nice and very knowledgeable. He wanted to thank me for my letter and told me they take letters to the President very seriously. He said they are often send to all board members. I asked how mine would be distributed. He said it would go to engineering, and he said a copy with his notes would go to the President and the board.

He said I was a very important customer. He offered to send me an some kit for free and some other niceties, but I declined. (I'm waiting for SWM.) I could not pin him down on when or even if the HR-20 would have DLB. I pressed pretty well but I did not want to be rude so I backed off.

I asked if they get a lot of letters, and he indicated that they do and that a customer's status and longevity influences their internal discussions. I have 11+ years as a Premium subscriber with some sports packages, so I suppose I forked over a few dollars in my time.

So it is nice to see DirecTV taking things seriously. Here's hoping.

... now back to F1 practice session on the Tivo.


----------



## Halo

theratpatrol said:


> Don't want to burst your bubble, but DLB on the UTV only worked when the PIP window was on, otherwise it doesn't work like it does on the Tivo.


What are you talking about? The PIP window didn't have to be on screen for both buffers to be working. You used the PIP window to swap between buffers, or with a 3rd party remote, the "swap PIP" function could be used with a single button press.
Press the PIP button, the PIP window goes away, and both programs continue buffering. That's DLB.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Halo said:


> What are you talking about? The PIP window didn't have to be on screen for both buffers to be working. You used the PIP window to swap between buffers, or with a 3rd party remote, the "swap PIP" function could be used with a single button press.
> Press the PIP button, the PIP window goes away, and both programs continue buffering. That's DLB.


What are you talking about? 

Do you still have UTV? If so try it. Press PIP, swap to the other window, then try to rewind that buffer. You will see that it will not rewind. The buffer only worked when the PIP screen was on, and stayed on, unless you were recording shows on both tuners at the same time, then it would work in the way you described above.


----------



## Que

argonaut said:


> Some good news ...
> 
> I just got off the phone with DirecTV. Recently I wrote a nice letter to the President (see OP) regarding DLB and they decided to call me back.
> 
> A gentleman named Steve called me and said he worked for the President and was just down the hall. He was very nice and very knowledgeable. He wanted to thank me for my letter and told me they take letters to the President very seriously. He said they are often send to all board members. I asked how mine would be distributed. He said it would go to engineering, and he said a copy with his notes would go to the President and the board.
> 
> He said I was a very important customer. He offered to send me an some kit for free and some other niceties, but I declined. (I'm waiting for SWM.) I could not pin him down on when or even if the HR-20 would have DLB. I pressed pretty well but I did not want to be rude so I backed off.
> 
> I asked if they get a lot of letters, and he indicated that they do and that a customer's status and longevity influences their internal discussions. I have 11+ years as a Premium subscriber with some sports packages, so I suppose I forked over a few dollars in my time.
> 
> So it is nice to see DirecTV taking things seriously. Here's hoping.
> 
> ... now back to F1 practice session on the Tivo.


Nice!

I wish that everyone that voted "A must have" (2,033) would all send in a snail mail letter. Then DLB might get on there to do list.


----------



## morgantown

Que said:


> Nice!
> 
> I wish that everyone that voted "A must have" (2,033) would all send in a snail mail letter. Then DLB might get on there to do list.


Very nice. With 87,110 views and DIRECTV watching this forum you'd think that they would have noticed by now. Clearly they have, to a degree.

DLB is such a nice feature irregardless of the so-called "minority" of folks that are aware of its brilliance. With the NFLST and even odd-hours channel surfing it is the most missed aspect of my DIRECTiVos.

Bring DLB to the HR20! Off to Word to type a very nice letter myself...


----------



## bonscott87

Even in today's world, snail mail is really the only way to get the attention of any company.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

morgantown said:


> Very nice. With 87,110 views and DIRECTV watching this forum you'd think that they would have noticed by now. Clearly they have, to a degree.
> 
> DLB is such a nice feature irregardless of the so-called "minority" of folks that are aware of its brilliance. With the NFLST and even odd-hours channel surfing it is the most missed aspect of my DIRECTiVos.
> 
> Bring DLB to the HR20! Off to Word to type a very nice letter myself...


I think they have noticed.

IMHO there are just other things (e.g. VOD) that they consider important features needed to keep competitive.

It seems tha DLB isn't one of those things. :scratch:

Mike


----------



## NickD

Sad to say, but DLB is one of the reasons I choose to watch my Directv Tivo over my HR20 when watching live tv.


----------



## Lord Vader

Same here, Nick, primarily when I'm watching sports.


----------



## waynenm

I used to think DLB was a big deal. It' not. Hitting the record button helps ease the pain.
Remember, it's not TLB.


----------



## boltjames

waynenm said:


> I used to think DLB was a big deal. It' not. Hitting the record button helps ease the pain.
> Remember, it's not TLB.


Exactly. The HR20 does so many other things so much better than the HR10 it completely outweighs the loss of the DLB function.

I don't miss it. Very few do.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

waynenm said:


> I used to think DLB was a big deal. It' not. Hitting the record button helps ease the pain.
> Remember, it's not TLB.


Sorry, but it is a big deal! I still use my HR10 about 90% of the time over my HR20...


----------



## JAYPB

ToddinVA said:


> Sorry, but it is a big deal! I still use my HR10 about 90% of the time over my HR20...


This is true for me as well. I've yet to actually record anything on the new HD channels on my HR20. Maybe if the HR20 was on our "main" (when I say our I mean the wife's input is needed on what to watch.....:hurah: ) TV setup I'd be recording movies and sitcoms, but until the WAF "tipping" point comes, the HR10's in my house will be utilized extensively.


----------



## NickD

waynenm said:


> I used to think DLB was a big deal. It' not. Hitting the record button helps ease the pain.
> Remember, it's not TLB.


I find it to be a big deal. It is so much easier to hit one button to go between stations versus recording and having to go into the menu to play the show. The record workaround is too cumbersome and time consuming in comparison to hitting arrow down. Not to mention with recording I have to be mindful of my available space. Having a true DLB is much nicer and more convenient then using some recording work around.


----------



## Que

Does the HR20 even save your pause point now?


----------



## jheda

Very few do?????????? Wow BJ another unsubstantiated conclusion confusing opinion and fact...



boltjames said:


> Exactly. The HR20 does so many other things so much better than the HR10 it completely outweighs the loss of the DLB function.
> 
> I don't miss it. Very few do.
> 
> BJ


----------



## Tusk

boltjames said:


> Exactly. The HR20 does so many other things so much better than the HR10 it completely outweighs the loss of the DLB function.
> 
> I don't miss it. Very few do.
> 
> BJ


Hmmmm! Currently there are 2043 people who vote it a must have. Seems to be people who miss it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> snip
> 
> I don't miss it. Very few do.
> 
> BJ


Very few??

Have ya actually looked at the poll numbers

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Very few??
> 
> Have ya actuall looked at the poll numbers
> 
> Mike


There's an internet phenomenon that goes something like this:

People with issues use the internet to complain. People without issues don't use the internet to celebrate.

It does not surprise me that a small fraction of the HR20 universe has found their way to this forum and clicked the little 'vote' button. They have a gripe and are looking for others to commisserate with. Conversely, those that aren't unhappy have no reason to come to DBS nor any reason to vote on anything that doesn't concern them.

You have a refrigerator, right? And it works just fine, right? Would you seek out the Amana Refrigerator Forum and find a post entitled "my ice maker doesn't make six sizes of ice cubes anymore", read it, and vote if your ice maker worked just fine?

Thought so. Forum polls are just another way for a fractional gang to justify their niche issues.

BJ


----------



## lman

boltjames said:


> There's an internet phenomenon that goes something like this:
> 
> People with issues use the internet to complain. People without issues don't use the internet to celebrate.
> 
> It does not surprise me that a small fraction of the HR20 universe has found their way to this forum and clicked the little 'vote' button. They have a gripe and are looking for others to commisserate with. Conversely, those that aren't unhappy have no reason to come to DBS nor any reason to vote on anything that doesn't concern them.
> 
> You have a refrigerator, right? And it works just fine, right? Would you seek out the Amana Refrigerator Forum and find a post entitled "my ice maker doesn't make six sizes of ice cubes anymore", read it, and vote if your ice maker worked just fine?
> 
> Thought so. Forum polls are just another way for a fractional gang to justify their niche issues.
> 
> BJ


So, what are you here to complain about? It looks like this is the biggest complaint on this forum due to the activity on this thread. Maybe DTV should do something about it.


----------



## mtnagel

MicroBeta said:


> Very few??
> 
> Have ya actually looked at the poll numbers
> 
> Mike


Internet polls are hardly scientific.


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> There's an internet phenomenon that goes something like this:
> 
> People with issues use the internet to complain. People without issues don't use the internet to celebrate.
> 
> It does not surprise me that a small fraction of the HR20 universe has found their way to this forum and clicked the little 'vote' button. They have a gripe and are looking for others to commisserate with. Conversely, those that aren't unhappy have no reason to come to DBS nor any reason to vote on anything that doesn't concern them.
> 
> You have a refrigerator, right? And it works just fine, right? Would you seek out the Amana Refrigerator Forum and find a post entitled "my ice maker doesn't make six sizes of ice cubes anymore", read it, and vote if your ice maker worked just fine?
> 
> Thought so. Forum polls are just another way for a fractional gang to justify their niche issues.
> 
> BJ


Your post is presumptive and incorrect and reeks of smugness and arrogance. The Internet is a better means by which a mass of people are better able to communicate their desires. People choose not to do this via snail mail, phone calls, etc. primarily because that takes too much time and effort. The Internet has allowed these same people the ability to voice their opinions much more quickly. It has nothing to do with being a fractional group. Indeed, the group to which you refer is quite the opposite from "fractional."


----------



## jheda

Lets try this again:

DLB - a feature many cherish, to different degrees of passion, especially the sports fanatic
a feature to anyones certainty does not distract from others enjoyment
a feature we patiently wait to hear from D* as to why its omitted.



mtnagel said:


> Internet polls are hardly scientific.


----------



## jahgreen

Lord Vader said:


> Your post is presumptive and incorrect and reeks of smugness and arrogance. The Internet is a better means by which a mass of people are better able to communicate their desires. People choose not to do this via snail mail, phone calls, etc. primarily because that takes too much time and effort. The Internet has allowed these same people the ability to voice their opinions much more quickly. It has nothing to do with being a fractional group. Indeed, the group to which you refer is quite the opposite from "fractional."


Actually, his post is absolutely correct. I've got no horse in this race, I'd like to have DLB but I don't obsess about it. However, as a matter of statistics, the polls here are all tainted by selection bias. Boltjames gives one example of selection bias, there are others. For a discussion of selection bias, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias, which includes the following description applicable to polls on this site:

_"Self-selection bias, which is possible whenever the group of people being studied has any form of control over whether to participate. Participants' decision to participate may be correlated with traits that affect the study, making the participants a non-representative sample. For example, people who have strong opinions or substantial knowledge may be more willing to spend time answering a survey than those who don't."_

I express no opinion about smugness or arrogance.


----------



## anubys

well...this is not an HR20 forum...but rather a forum for people who like electronics in general...much like TCF and AVS, I don't come here to complain...I come here to get news about stuff I use or want to use...

as such, I don't see the kind of statistical bias discussed here as a problem since we can assume that coming to this forum is independent of having a problem with the HR20...


----------



## mtnagel

But as jahgreens post says, people don't have to vote. There are many polls where I don't care one way or the other, so I don't even open the thread or vote. Obviously if you care about DLB, you will vote in this one, but I'm sure there are others that don't care or don't know what it's about and they haven't voted. 

Now, I don't really care one way or the other. I was just trying to point out that just because we have this poll with a high number of people saying they must have it, that doesn't translate to the entire user base of the HR20. No one knows how it correlates. We would need to take a survey of a representative sample of all the HR20 owners, not just ones with internet access that come here, to get a true sense of what people want.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> There's an internet phenomenon that goes something like this: People with issues use the internet to complain. People without issues don't use the internet to celebrate. It does not surprise me that a small fraction of the HR20 universe has found their way to this forum and clicked the little 'vote' button. They have a gripe and are looking for others to commisserate with. Conversely, those that aren't unhappy have no reason to come to DBS nor any reason to vote on anything that doesn't concern them. You have a refrigerator, right? And it works just fine, right? Would you seek out the Amana Refrigerator Forum and find a post entitled "my ice maker doesn't make six sizes of ice cubes anymore", read it, and vote if your ice maker worked just fine? Thought so. Forum polls are just another way for a fractional gang to justify their niche issues. BJ


I understand the '_internet phenomenon_' and you do have a point. Then again maybe not so much.

Your point assumes that everyone on DBSTalk is here because they have problems/issues. I didn't come to DBSTalk because I had a "_gripe_". I came to learn stuff.

I actually got the HR20 knowing it didn't have *DLB*. I assumed that it would be added later. Silly me.....

You could say that most DBSTalk members or tech savy and would know about *DLB* vs the regular guy who doesn't have a clue. However everyone I know with a dual tuner DVR knows they can watch two shows at once. Most don't have a clue what *Dual Live Buffers* mean. I know this is all anecdotal but I believe that most people with DVRs know about it what ever they may call it. Especially since the manuals for most current DVRs discuss how to watch to shows at once(I posted model and manual page numbers elsewhere).

Are the poll numbers just a bunch of crap or could they have some statistical significance? This isn't a site devoted to *DLB*. It's devoted to DBS and this forum the HR20. How many respondents to the poll do you need to consider the numbers meaningful?

Don't get me wrong. I will freely admit that a poll on this or any other forum is skewed from the general public. But how much is it skewed? Could an overwhelming majority of forums members tend to indicate that a simple majority of general public(who have DVRs) might agree? I think so.

You could also argue that so go the early adopters, so go the general public (ok I'll give you beta max, but in general it works. :grin. IMHO, THAT IS WHY YOU ARE SEEING IT IN USERS MANUALS/GUIDES. If manufacturers/service providers are starting to advertise the ability to watch two shows at once, could it be that it _*is*_ a popular feature?

Less than 6% don't care and >94% do. To say it's "_fractional gang_" kinda implies that a small portion of people on this site are controling the poll...or that only thoes who want *DLB* are forum members. Can you assume that only those who care about *DLB* voted and those who don't did not bother? If so then _*any*_ poll on the site is useless.

Mike


----------



## SAC-CA-HT

I think it's VERY important to have this. Even my wife last night asked why we couldn't switch between channels as we were watching the EM:Home Addition Premiere and wanted to switch to something else. I told her just to hit record and start recording it then we will come back and watch. But we could only do this till 8pm as the Simpsons started to record. A dual buffer is a MUST if you ask me and I'm dissapointed that it doesn't have it. I like to be able to switch channels and then switch back and be able to rewind to see what I missed without have to record, then delete when done, etc. FIX THIS D*!!!!


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## lman

It appears to me that this thread has had the most activity, so it appears that DLB is wanted more than any other feature. If anyone can advise of a feature that is wanted or missed more, I haven't seen it on this forum.


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## mtnagel

MicroBeta said:


> If so then _*any*_ poll on the site is useless.
> 
> Mike


Now you are starting to get it.


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## Mike Bertelson

mtnagel said:


> Now you are starting to get it.


Ok, What I was really implying is that I _don't_ think they are useless. 

How about the rest of the post?

For that matter how about the my poll of SLB?
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102019
Would it's results indicate something or not?

Mike


----------



## Que

lman said:


> It appears to me that this thread has had the most activity, so it appears that DLB is wanted more than any other feature. If anyone can advise of a feature that is wanted or missed more, I haven't seen it on this forum.


A must have! *2057 76.64%*
Don't really care about it. 142 5.29%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 485 18.07%
Voters: 2684.

Replies *1,590*
Views * 87,969*


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## mtnagel

MicroBeta said:


> Ok, What I was really implying is that I _don't_ think they are useless.
> 
> How about the rest of the post?
> 
> For that matter how about the my poll of SLB?
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=102019
> Would it's results indicate something or not?
> 
> Mike


I'm definitely no statistician, but I would say that forum polls are pretty useless. You can use them for fun I guess (and I do). Unless you wanted to qualify every time you use the results by saying, "Of all the members of dbstalk.com _that actually voted_, X want DLB." Or something like that. I don't think there is any way you could correlate forum polls to the entire userbase of HR20 owners.


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## anubys

mtnagel said:


> I'm definitely no statistician, but I would say that forum polls are pretty useless.


I am a statistician...and yes, the results are not statistically valid...this is, however, a very specific audience and not the general public...as such, while the results don't give you the "true" answer, it should give you a decent enough indication of the general sentiment...

if you notice, the % that say it's a must have has not changed much even when the number of voters has more than doubled...that kind of stability is very telling (and quite normal)...


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## Mike Bertelson

anubys said:


> I am a statistician...and yes, the results are not statistically valid...this is, however, a very specific audience and not the general public...as such, while the results don't give you the "true" answer, it should give you a decent enough indication of the general sentiment...
> 
> if you notice, the % that say it's a must have has not changed much even when the number of voters has more than doubled...that kind of stability is very telling (and quite normal)...


Now that's what I was trying to say. Maybe my post was too confusing. The poll data is not completely useless. It may even be possible to intpolate beyond DBSTalk.

Mike


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## ShiningBengal

lman said:


> So, what are you here to complain about? It looks like this is the biggest complaint on this forum due to the activity on this thread. Maybe DTV should do something about it.


Seems that boltjames has an agenda: He wants to prove that since he doesn't regard DLB as important, anyone who does think so evidently doesn't have the "right" perspective (his).

I think he would be mortified if DirecTV implemented DLB in their next software release for the HR20. What would he have to complain about then? Mind you, I don't look for that to happen, but the thought is delicious.


----------



## Lord Vader

jahgreen said:


> Actually, his post is absolutely correct. I've got no horse in this race, I'd like to have DLB but I don't obsess about it. However, as a matter of statistics, the polls here are all tainted by selection bias. Boltjames gives one example of selection bias, there are others. For a discussion of selection bias, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias, which includes the following description applicable to polls on this site:
> 
> _"Self-selection bias, which is possible whenever the group of people being studied has any form of control over whether to participate. Participants' decision to participate may be correlated with traits that affect the study, making the participants a non-representative sample. For example, people who have strong opinions or substantial knowledge may be more willing to spend time answering a survey than those who don't."_
> 
> I express no opinion about smugness or arrogance.


Citing wikipedia destroys any credibility your post had. Wikipedia lost its own legitimacy and credibility a while ago.


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## mtnagel

anubys said:


> I am a statistician...and yes, the results are not statistically valid...this is, however, a very specific audience and not the general public...as such, while the results don't give you the "true" answer, it should give you a decent enough indication of the general sentiment...
> 
> if you notice, the % that say it's a must have has not changed much even when the number of voters has more than doubled...that kind of stability is very telling (and quite normal)...


Thanks for the insight. Now, what about the fact that this is an internet forum and as such, one could assume we are more advanced users and one could say that DLB is more of an "advanced" feature (neither my wife not parents knew about it), so wouldn't the results be skewed higher in favor of the positive? Not sure how much, but to some degree. Any comment?

Also, as an expert, what is your opinion of the question and choices as worded? As someone that does a lot of surveys/questionnaires (I test a lot of products at work), it seems like the question could be worded better. Not sure how though.


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## Mike55Y

After a number of years with D-Tivo, I switched to Comcast in June. The lack of dual live buffers was a deal breaker for me. With Comcast, I get two HD-DVR's for $5 a month each, no upfront cost, and with DLB's. It's true that it lacks some of the TIVO features, is not as convenient to use, but I can still record everything I want, the quality is good, and it has DLB's. I have never had it not record a program. Comcast tech support is abysmal, but fortunately I haven't needed it very much.


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## mtnagel

Mike55Y said:


> After a number of years with D-Tivo, I switched to Comcast in June. The lack of dual live buffers was a deal breaker for me. With Comcast, I get two HD-DVR's for $5 a month each, no upfront cost, and with DLB's. It's true that it lacks some of the TIVO features, is not as convenient to use, but I can still record everything I want, the quality is good, and it has DLB's. I have never had it not record a program. Comcast tech support is abysmal, but fortunately I haven't needed it very much.


Unfortunately, no ST, so that's a deal breaker for many of us.


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> <snip>Thought so. Forum polls are just another way for a fractional gang to justify their niche issues.
> BJ


My issues are not "niche" issues. They are mine. I couldn't care less about the polls on this.

Clearly when other DVR's were designed, their designs were not dictated by "niches." It is a natural adjunct to dual tuners. The buffer has to be there in order for dual tuners to even be enabled. If it were not, you wouldn't be able to pause live TV.

For their own reasons--hinted at by Earl--DirecTV has chosen not to make it available on their flagship hardware. Odd also that the HR20 is practically alone among DVR's that do not have it.

DLB's, judging by the number of DVR's that have them, vs those that do not (the HR20?), are very much mainstream--the opposite of "niche." Moreover, the HR20 is the ONLY DVR that DirecTV has EVER put on the market that didn't have at least some implementation of DLB (I am paying homage to Ultimate TV that only had it for PIP). All of the TiVo's had them, and had them virtually from the beginning.

It is true that many non-techie types don't recognize the terminalogy "dual live buffers" or the acronym, "DLB." But I venture anyone who ever owned and used a TiVo for any length of time figured out what they were and how to use them. They think of them as a natural adjunct to a DVR, just as pause and fast forward are.

Early technology, one would expect, would set a standard for more recent technology. In the case of the HR20, newer technology in some respects is inferior to earlier technology in that it lacks an important key feature that all of its predesessors and virtually all of the competing DVR's have: DLB's.

Let's say DirecTV built automobiles, and not DVR's. Let's also say that all of its earlier models had automatic transmission, and with the new, 2007 model, they decided not to include it. Virtually every other 2007 model car on the market has it--even the newcomers.

Bolt, I'm sure you would be lauding the new model as much more advanced than the older one (and the others on the market that have it) saying that automatic transmission was only for a "niche" market.

I drive a manual transmission car--and I always have. I like it that way. But manual transmission is a niche market. Automatic is not.

Yes, people who are used to automatic transmission might be able learn to drive a manual. But perhaps they might find it cumbersome navigating through the kind of bumper-to-bumper traffic they commute through every day. You seem to think that these folks are out in left field, and that they must be from another planet to prefer automatic transmission.

You, on the other hand, drive on expressways, and seldom encounter stop and go traffic. So you think people are nuts to want the automatic transmission they have become accustomed to in their older, less advanced automobiles.

You seem to think that lacking a feature is a plus. Very strange way of thinking.


----------



## mtnagel

ShiningBengal said:


> It is true that many non-techie types don't recognize the terminalogy "dual live buffers" or the acronym, "DLB." But I venture anyone who ever owned and used a TiVo for any length of time figured out what they were and how to use them.


I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as I said a few posts up, my wife and parents (whom have had a Directivo for at least 5 years) don't know what they are and don't know you can switch tuners. They either watch a recording or live tv. That's it. There is no jumping around for them. Sorry to break it to you.


----------



## anubys

mtnagel said:


> Thanks for the insight. Now, what about the fact that this is an internet forum and as such, one could assume we are more advanced users and one could say that DLB is more of an "advanced" feature (neither my wife not parents knew about it), so wouldn't the results be skewed higher in favor of the positive? Not sure how much, but to some degree. Any comment?
> 
> Also, as an expert, what is your opinion of the question and choices as worded? As someone that does a lot of surveys/questionnaires (I test a lot of products at work), it seems like the question could be worded better. Not sure how though.


well, the assumption would be that advanced users have different needs and tastes than novices...I don't see a strong reason to make that assumption regarding DLB...

Novices may not KNOW about the feature, but you can conclude that for those that do know about it, an overwhelming majority wants it...

choice of words? eh...as online surveys go, this is pretty normal...you can nit-pick and say the exclamation point sets the tone, but that would be real nit-picky :lol:

even if you want to assume that there's some bias introduced because the users are advanced...etc. I think that is negated by the very strong result...even if the answer is skewed by 15%, you'd still have a strong majority for DLB...


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## drisner

DLB would be nice. My 60-year-old parents liked to use it with their old Tivo they just upgraded to an HR20.

*But....*

IMHO, there are more pressing issues, number one being increasing the number of allowed Series Links!

VOD and MRV are also more pressing since DLB can be emulated by using recordings (not that DLB isn't better, nicer and easier).

So, DLB should be implemented, but IMHO the 50 Series Link limit is the most pressing issue (and seemingly extremely easy to fix) so I don't have to go through once a week and setup one time recordings for the additional 10 or so series I record beyond the 50 programmed with the series link.

VOD and MRV are important for D* revenue. I wouldn't get anymore HR20s or HDTVs until the HR20 has MRV. I would think there are others who feel the same about MRV.


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## mtnagel

anubys said:


> well, the assumption would be that advanced users have different needs and tastes than novices...I don't see a strong reason to make that assumption regarding DLB...
> 
> Novices may not KNOW about the feature, but you can conclude that for those that do know about it, an overwhelming majority wants it...
> 
> choice of words? eh...as online surveys go, this is pretty normal...you can nit-pick and say the exclamation point sets the tone, but that would be real nit-picky :lol:
> 
> even if you want to assume that there's some bias introduced because the users are advanced...etc. I think that is negated by the very strong result...even if the answer is skewed by 15%, you'd still have a strong majority for DLB...


How weird. Some unknown force was driving me to pick the first choice. Now it all makes sense. It was the exclamation point! That's it, the results are useless 

I'm just kidding. I actually did pick the first choice, but now I realize that I didn't even use DLB's on my Directivo as I recorded both games. So my vote is invalid.

Anyway, thanks again for your insight into forum polling. It's always bugged me that some people like to take them as gospel. But I'll now stop talking about the skewed results.


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## ShiningBengal

mtnagel said:


> I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as I said a few posts up, my wife and parents (whom have had a Directivo for at least 5 years) don't know what they are and don't know you can switch tuners. They either watch a recording or live tv. That's it. There is no jumping around for them. Sorry to break it to you.


Let me restate my position to be more acceptable to you: Insert the words "that virtually" between "venture" and "anyone."

That should work now. (Your wife and parents can now be respectfully excluded). However, my 93 year old father, who spends the majority of his waking hours in front of his TV knows full well how to use DLB. He didn't crack the manual to learn how, either.


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## Mike Bertelson

mtnagel said:


> I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as I said a few posts up, my wife and parents (whom have had a Directivo for at least 5 years) don't know what they are and don't know you can switch tuners. They either watch a recording or live tv. That's it. There is no jumping around for them. Sorry to break it to you.


I know quite a few people with DVRs (saddly most with cable ). At work I talked to those that don't have D*(cable or E*). Every single one of them(it was seven, I know not exactly a huge sample), knew they could watch two show at once. The didn't know it was called *DLB* or that it even had a name. They knew about it because it was in the manual/guide that came with the DVR and in some cases on the service providers promotional website or mailer.

I do have to say they are all got their DVRs within the last year or so and all but two had never had them before. They only knew about it after the fact because it was in the manual so it wasn't like it was a feature they looked for.

However, I could argure that never before has the ability to "watch two shows at once" been advertised or had instructions in the manuals...that DVRs are becoming mainstream and what's popular is starting become prominent in such advertising/manuals.
See:http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1020690&postcount=1046

What *DLB* has been in past is one thing. What it will become as DVR's progress/mature is another.

Consider and comment on the following....

Will *DLB* become an expected featrue in DVRs?

Will D* have to consider *DLB* as a feature needed to keep competitive?

If you have to pay $X.XX plus a monthly fee to have the box does it then become important what the box can/can't do?

Will services provided, e.g. VOD, overshadow *DLB*? In other words is it not really important compared to content/services?

Mike


----------



## anubys

mtnagel said:


> Anyway, thanks again for your insight into forum polling. It's always bugged me that some people like to take them as gospel. But I'll now stop talking about the skewed results.


not to beat a dead horse (I know most people don't care), but don't go as far as that...most internet polls are garbage and are heavily skewed...the question you have to ask yourself is if the visitors to the site and the people that are voting are independent of the question posed...

in this case, we can assume that the voters represent the normal population as a whole except that they are more computer savvy and like their electronics...as long as the survey isn't "do you visit forums?", the answer should not be too skewed...


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## jheda

Sorry to break this to you, but as dedicated to this site as i am, I COULDNT SPELL DLB UNTIL I GOT THE HR20 AND MISSED THE FEATURE TO THE POINT WHERE I GOOGLED THE HR20 TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IM DOING WRONG ..found this site and the rest is history...

Im sure there is an anectodal story to counter for everyone told...

BJ, kep the posts coming, you keep the debate alive!!!!



mtnagel said:


> I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative, but as I said a few posts up, my wife and parents (whom have had a Directivo for at least 5 years) don't know what they are and don't know you can switch tuners. They either watch a recording or live tv. That's it. There is no jumping around for them. Sorry to break it to you.


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## jahgreen

Lord Vader said:


> Citing wikipedia destroys any credibility your post had. Wikipedia lost its own legitimacy and credibility a while ago.


But you didn't address the point, did you? Reminds me of the folks I see on Face the Nation and Meet the Press.


----------



## Lord Vader

Asked and answered.


----------



## triebs2

New to this forum --- thank you for answering my main question, which was "why can't I switch back and forth between football games while keeping them paused where I leave them?"

I had never heard the DB terminology, so I have no idea if D* disclosed this to me when I bought the HR20. My older HR10-250 is my go-to box now for Sunday Ticket games. There are a number of things to get used to with the new software, but the lack of DB for live tv is my biggest, most important complaint. I have tried recording two games as a work around, but it is much less manageable. Why am I getting Home Garden Shopping Soap channel, and a bunch of other useless stuff, in HD, while I am not getting a basic feature like live DB?

If D* ever loses the Sunday Ticket monopoly, I will jump ship to someone with a DB HD DVR.

And I have been with D* for years.


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## flakrat

I've been a DTV subscriber for 10 years now and a SAT-T60 and Series 2 DTivo owner for the last 5 or 6.

I recently upgraded my TV from a 27" WEGA to a 50" plasma. Well, needless to say, the TV upgrade led to a DirecTv change, why have an HDTV and not get the signal?

I've had the HR20 for a month now and can honestly say that, even with the fancy new TV and HD signal, I do not enjoy watching TV as much as I used to with my SAT-T60 or Series 2 DTivos on the small 27" tube.

The HR20 has some neat features (being able to watch a stream while I configure the unit, or search the guide), but the missing features by far offset those.

The lack of DLB is the most important missing feature for me. Watching live sporting events without DLB is just slightly better than watching them on a non DVR receiver.


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## Mike Bertelson

triebs2 said:


> New to this forum --- thank you for answering my main question, which was "why can't I switch back and forth between football games while keeping them paused where I leave them?"
> 
> I had never heard the DB terminology, so I have no idea if D* disclosed this to me when I bought the HR20. My older HR10-250 is my go-to box now for Sunday Ticket games. There are a number of things to get used to with the new software, but the lack of DB for live tv is my biggest, most important complaint. I have tried recording two games as a work around, but it is much less manageable. Why am I getting Home Garden Shopping Soap channel, and a bunch of other useless stuff, in HD, while I am not getting a basic feature like live DB?
> 
> If D* ever loses the Sunday Ticket monopoly, I will jump ship to someone with a DB HD DVR.
> 
> And I have been with D* for years.





flakrat said:


> I've been a DTV subscriber for 10 years now and a SAT-T60 and Series 2 DTivo owner for the last 5 or 6.
> 
> I recently upgraded my TV from a 27" WEGA to a 50" plasma. Well, needless to say, the TV upgrade led to a DirecTv change, why have an HDTV and not get the signal?
> 
> I've had the HR20 for a month now and can honestly say that, even with the fancy new TV and HD signal, I do not enjoy watching TV as much as I used to with my SAT-T60 or Series 2 DTivos on the small 27" tube.
> 
> The HR20 has some neat features (being able to watch a stream while I configure the unit, or search the guide), but the missing features by far offset those.
> 
> The lack of DLB is the most important missing feature for me. Watching live sporting events without DLB is just slightly better than watching them on a non DVR receiver.


:welcome_s

Welcome to DBSTalk.

If you haven't ready, checkout the Welcome Thread for new members.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=79834

I was/am as dissappointed with the lack of *DLB* as you are. :nono2:

I knew going in the HR20 didn't have it but kinda hoped it was comming...:bang

I've had the HR20 for seven months and watched some tv on our other DirecTiVo (SD) box last weekend. Now I miss it even more.

As I've posted elsewhere in this thread I believe that D* will have to address and implement *DLB* sooner or later.

Buffer issues aside, I love the HR20....and it's only getting better. 

If you find the time/inclination this post has a couple of letters you could use to email/snail mail to DirecTV about *DLB*.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1096628&postcount=1458

This is a Wish List survey for the HR20. If you have time you might like to take it.
http://www.sizethis.com/index.php?module=survey&survey=28

There's a lot of info here. Read and learn...that's why I come here. Got any questions...it's probably already been asked in some form or other so try the search function. If in doubt just post it. The experts here are always reading and someone will have the answer you need. If, on the rare occasion, they don't have the anwser they will find it for you. These guys are gooood.:bowdown:

Mike


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## waporvare

76.63% of 2722 votes want it, add in those that would like it but can live without it and you have 2579 votes and you have 94.74% in favor of it.

So with the overwhelming majority wanting Dual live buffers why won't it be done? Earl has almost all but said it won't happen.

Could this be because of SWM?


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## Mike Bertelson

waporvare said:


> 76.63% of 2722 votes want it, add in those that would like it but can live without it and you have 2579 votes and you have 94.74% in favor of it.
> 
> So with the overwhelming majority wanting Dual live buffers why won't it be done? Earl has almost all but said it won't happen.
> 
> Could this be because of SWM?


Don't think so. :scratch:

Even with SWM it still will be able to record two shows at once.

Mike


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## falken

DLB and CIR, two things that could be fixed, except they dont want to. Perhaps tivo is paying off the dev team to make sure the unit is never as good? 

Edit: and don't give me the CIR has nothing to do with the HR20 software BS... you could make a user selectable list rather then getting the info from the sat. stream (which doesn't work).


----------



## jahgreen

anubys said:


> not to beat a dead horse (I know most people don't care), but don't go as far as that...most internet polls are garbage and are heavily skewed...the question you have to ask yourself is if the visitors to the site and the people that are voting are independent of the question posed...
> 
> in this case, we can assume that the voters represent the normal population as a whole except that they are more computer savvy and like their electronics...as long as the survey isn't "do you visit forums?", the answer should not be too skewed...


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to assume that the voters at this site are representative of the universe of HR20 owners, and plenty of reasons to assume otherwise.

For example, an average HR20 user who is pleased as punch and has nothing to complain about is far less likely to find his/her way to this site than a sophisticated, demanding user who is royally ticked because he/she wants her DLB. (Maybe we could get Al Yankovic to rework the Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" lyrics for this thread? ).

Back to topic!


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## puffnstuff

Alright I have been waiting forever for an answer to why we don't have DLB . As posted before I have been asking D* about this for a long time and keep getting told they are working on them which we know not to be true . Also we know that some people on here may even know why . So will any of us normals ever find out the rhyme or reason . Or is it just going to be a huge secert until the next generation box comes out ? I also thought that Earl said it would become apparent later on down the road . If it wasn't I am sorry but I remember it being said and so far I just keep wondering why not ? and I don't see anything coming that would change it .


----------



## wjbjr

waporvare said:


> 76.63% of 2722 votes want it, add in those that would like it but can live without it and you have 2579 votes and you have 94.74% in favor of it.
> 
> So with the overwhelming majority wanting Dual live buffers why won't it be done? Earl has almost all but said it won't happen.
> 
> Could this be because of SWM?


In another life, I was a manager of the market research department of a Dow 30 company, and have some knowledge of polls.

In a poll of this sort, the participants are representative only of themselves, and cannot be said to represent the universe of HR20 owners. In other words, the 94.74% figure represents only those who voted.

That said, there were still -- absent ballot box stuffers (I am in Florida) -- 2722 owners who favored having dual buffers. And, as previously stated, there are many HR20 owners who are unaware of this discussion. (I am an eleven year DirecTV subscriber, an eight year HD TV owner and a seven year AVS participant, but discovered this fine forum only a few months ago.)

How many HR20 owners are there? Given the probability that a large portion of them are unaware of this thread, what percentage of owners does the favorable vote represent? That will probably never be ascertainable. Nor would it have any real meaning.

As for myself, I have both a HR10 and a HR20 hooked up to the main HD TV. The HR10 is the primary receiver. Enough said.


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## Que

All this DLB talk is not just in this poll thread. Heck it's in a lot of threads on here, if that tell you anything. Someone always adds that they do miss DLB.

If you even check other "sat" forums you will see the same thing.


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## luckydob

65 pages and we are no closer to DLB on the HR20. I think it's apparent why we don't have DLB.
1. HR20 cannot record correctly yet (1yr after being released)
2. SLB doesn't even work yet
C. They are working on the HR21, so why worry about what is out when we can focus on the next box.

Bite the bullet D* and get back in bed with Tivo or at least buy them out and use their technology already.

***Still waiting for that day when it will be clear why DLB was not implimented***


----------



## whaleboy

jahgreen said:


> For example, an average HR20 user who is pleased as punch and has nothing to complain about is far less likely to find his/her way to this site than a sophisticated, demanding user who is royally ticked because he/she wants her DLB.


FWIW, I didn't come here to complain about DLB, or to complain about anything at all, or even because I had a problem (I didn't). I came here because I got a call from Dtv saying I needed to upgrade my DVR to get the new slew of HD channels coming out. I'm not going to blindly upgrade (especially since my parents have had nothing but trouble with their Dtv branded DVR... they are on their 4th replacement), so I just dropped in here to see how everyone else liked it before committing to new hardware...

Now I find out that this winter I'll have to choose between having a DVR with two fully functioning tuners, or HD. :nono2:

Not happy (nor is my wife)...

But... I do see your point, and agree a little, but I do think that there are a significant number of customers who are used to this ability, and are very annoyed that it is gone (or will be when they switch).

-David


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## ShiningBengal

jahgreen said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I see no reason to assume that the voters at this site are representative of the universe of HR20 owners, and plenty of reasons to assume otherwise.
> 
> For example, an average HR20 user who is pleased as punch and has nothing to complain about is far less likely to find his/her way to this site than a sophisticated, demanding user who is royally ticked because he/she wants her DLB. (Maybe we could get Al Yankovic to rework the Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" lyrics for this thread? ).
> 
> Back to topic!


Er, you are pleased as punch and found your way to this site, didn't you? Is that one of your plenty of reasons?

What are your plenty of reasons to explain why nearly every other DVR that is or ever has been has had DLB? Because no one wants it?


----------



## Jon D

luckydob said:


> 65 pages and we are no closer to DLB on the HR20. I think it's apparent why we don't have DLB.
> 1. HR20 cannot record correctly yet (1yr after being released)
> 2. SLB doesn't even work yet
> C. They are working on the HR21, so why worry about what is out when we can focus on the next box.
> 
> Bite the bullet D* and get back in bed with Tivo or at least buy them out and use their technology already.
> 
> ***Still waiting for that day when it will be clear why DLB was not implimented***


1. HR20 Records fine. Not one missed recording in nearly a year
2. The single buffer works fine. Never had an issue with it.
3. HR21 is not meant to replace HR20 so that reason makes absolutely no sense.

DirecTV is not going to drop the their current DVR lines and go back to Tivo. Get used to it.

I would say to everyone. All this arguing, speculating, bickering, whining, and sniping is pointless. DirecTV either will or will not enable DLB in the HR20. Whether they do or do not we will probably never know the reason. For anyone who just can't live without DLB, you may want to switch to a provider that has it.


----------



## vicmeldrew

Jon D said:


> 1. HR20 Records fine. Not one missed recording in nearly a year
> 2. The single buffer works fine. Never had an issue with it.
> 3. HR21 is not meant to replace HR20 so that reason makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> DirecTV is not going to drop the their current DVR lines and go back to Tivo. Get used to it.
> 
> I would say to everyone. All this arguing, speculating, bickering, whining, and sniping is pointless. DirecTV either will or will not enable DLB in the HR20. Whether they do or do not we will probably never know the reason. For anyone who just can't live without DLB, you may want to switch to a provider that has it.


And as i have previously said - when my tivos die i wll switch to cable - DLB for me is more important than subscribing to sunday ticket and only watching one game.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Jon D said:


> 1. HR20 Records fine. Not one missed recording in nearly a year
> 2. The single buffer works fine. Never had an issue with it.
> 3. HR21 is not meant to replace HR20 so that reason makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> DirecTV is not going to drop the their current DVR lines and go back to Tivo. Get used to it.
> 
> I would say to everyone. All this arguing, speculating, bickering, whining, and sniping is pointless. DirecTV either will or will not enable DLB in the HR20. Whether they do or do not we will probably never know the reason. For anyone who just can't live without DLB, you may want to switch to a provider that has it.


And of course, pay DirecTV to get out of your 2-year contract.

Arguing and speculating is part of what this forum is about. Get used to it.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it, and don't post to it. Seems like a simple solution?


----------



## raott

Jon D said:


> 1. HR20 Records fine. Not one missed recording in nearly a year
> .


Then please start a series link for Blues Clues or Wonderpets and let us know if you still think it records fine. Post your findings in the Blues Clues thread.


----------



## puffnstuff

raott said:


> Then please start a series link for Blues Clues or Wonderpets and let us know if you still think it records fine. Post your findings in the Blues Clues thread.


Did it for a week no problems . I wonder why some people have so many problems ?


----------



## luckydob

puffnstuff said:


> Did it for a week no problems . I wonder why some people have so many problems ?


try wonderpets. I miss at least one a day.

FAIL.

Single Live Buffer still doesn't work.

FAIL.


----------



## puffnstuff

luckydob said:


> try wonderpets. I miss at least one a day.
> 
> FAIL.
> 
> Single Live Buffer still doesn't work.
> 
> FAIL.


OK I will try . I love to try and help !


----------



## jahgreen

whaleboy said:


> But... I do see your point, and agree a little, but I do think that there are a significant number of customers who are used to this ability, and are very annoyed that it is gone (or will be when they switch).
> -David


I've never said otherwise. My point is simply that one cannot extrapolate from the percentage vote here to the entire universe of HR20 users. I would be interested in a truly random poll on this subject.

Nor have I belittled those who want DLB. So do I. I'm just not as emotional about it--I've got too many other things in live to obsess about.


----------



## jahgreen

ShiningBengal said:


> Er, you are pleased as punch and found your way to this site, didn't you? Is that one of your plenty of reasons?
> 
> What are your plenty of reasons to explain why nearly every other DVR that is or ever has been has had DLB? Because no one wants it?


Oy.

First, who says I am an "average user" who is "pleased as punch"? Fact is, I came to this site because I knew that the SD DirecTV boxes had been crappy, and Earl had a review of the HR20 that I wanted to read. I lurked for 6 months reading the horror stories of the early adopters and making do with OTA HD. I took the plunge only when the tide seemed to turn, and the general view was that the HR20, though still imperfect, was no longer a disaster. I knew every defect and "missing" feature--including no DLB--before I leaped. That's hardly the resume of your average HR20 user.

Second, since my original comment was directed solely to whether it is appropriate to assume that a poll at this site is representative of the universe of HR20 users, I don't see what you second question has to do with me.

I've already said in this very thread that I'd like to have DLB. I'm scratching my head as to why it wasn't included. All of which is irrelevant to my point--small and apparently unclear as it may be.


----------



## ShiningBengal

jahgreen said:


> Oy.
> 
> First, who says I am an "average user" who is "pleased as punch"? Fact is, I came to this site because I knew that the SD DirecTV boxes had been crappy, and Earl had a review of the HR20 that I wanted to read. I lurked for 6 months reading the horror stories of the early adopters and making do with OTA HD. I took the plunge only when the tide seemed to turn, and the general view was that the HR20, though still imperfect, was no longer a disaster. I knew every defect and "missing" feature--including no DLB--before I leaped. That's hardly the resume of your average HR20 user.
> 
> Second, since my original comment was directed solely to whether it is appropriate to assume that a poll at this site is representative of the universe of HR20 users, I don't see what you second question has to do with me.
> 
> I've already said in this very thread that I'd like to have DLB. I'm scratching my head as to why it wasn't included. All of which is irrelevant to my point--small and apparently unclear as it may be.


Should have read the entire thread. My apologies.


----------



## ironwood

I dont really see what the issue is. You can create "dual buffer" simply by recording 2 channels and then jumping back and forth while both channels are being recorded. Or record one and then go from live to recorded show. You still can rewind and fast forward or pause.


----------



## mtnagel

ironwood said:


> I dont really see what the issue is. You can create "dual buffer" simply by recording 2 channels and then jumping back and forth while both channels are being recorded. Or record one and then go from live to recorded show. You still can rewind and fast forward or pause.


Rut-row!


----------



## NorfolkBruh

ironwood said:


> I dont really see what the issue is. You can create "dual buffer" simply by recording 2 channels and then jumping back and forth while both channels are being recorded. Or record one and then go from live to recorded show. You still can rewind and fast forward or pause.



_EHHHHHHH!! _ <====that's a game show buzzer sound!​
What you suggest would work PERFECTLY 100% of the time IF the SLB worked perfectly 100% of the time but for MANY of us (just do a search for "SLB" or "single live buffer") that just ain't the case!

When we pause either a LIVE show or a recorded one then jump back and forth between them the result is USUALLY that the "recording program" is "live" spot and if you pause the LIVE show and come back to it, it too has advanced. The pause fails.

What we end up with is jumping back and forth between the END of each show. Give us DLB dangit!! lolol


----------



## M3Rocket

^ +1


----------



## mtnagel

NorfolkBruh said:


> _EHHHHHHH!! _ <====that's a game show buzzer sound!​
> What you suggest would work PERFECTLY 100% of the time IF the SLB worked perfectly 100% of the time but for MANY of us (just do a search for "SLB" or "single live buffer") that just ain't the case!
> 
> When we pause either a LIVE show or a recorded one then jump back and forth between them the result is USUALLY that the "recording program" is "live" spot and if you pause the LIVE show and come back to it, it too has advanced. The pause fails.
> 
> What we end up with is jumping back and forth between the END of each show. Give us DLB dangit!! lolol


I figured someone would lay into him, but what he said was actually correct. His post had nothing to do with SLB. He saif record 2 things. If you want to watch only 2 things AND you record them, you can simulate DLB as you can jump back and forth and it maintains the pause point just fine. I do this the Sundays where the Bills and Bengals (my teams) are both playing at the same time (only 6 times this year).

Where this fails is if you want to jump around between more than 2 shows or you can't/don't want to record them.

EDIT: Okay, rereading his post, I see he does mention jumping from a recording to a live show. I guess I just skimmed over that part and only read the part where he says record 2 things, which as I said would work. So I guess you are both right.


----------



## Jon D

ShiningBengal said:


> And of course, pay DirecTV to get out of your 2-year contract.
> 
> Arguing and speculating is part of what this forum is about. Get used to it.
> 
> If you don't like the thread, don't read it, and don't post to it. Seems like a simple solution?


I never said there shouldn't be any arguing or speculating. Only that it will not effect the implementation of dual buffers. It's like anything else. If there is enough demand across the board for something. Not just from an enthusiast forum site. We are not proportionately representative of the entire DirecTV customer base.

I also never said I don't like the thread. Your whole third line there is just rude and patronizing; not to mention gramatically incorrect. The last sentence is a declaritive statement, and thus needs a period.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jon D said:


> Your whole third line there is just rude and patronizing; not to mention gramatically incorrect. The last sentence is a declaritive statement, and thus needs a period.


Your last sentence contains a misspelling and needs a correction.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ironwood said:


> I dont really see what the issue is. You can create "dual buffer" simply by recording 2 channels and then jumping back and forth while both channels are being recorded. Or record one and then go from live to recorded show. You still can rewind and fast forward or pause.


That's long been the work around(see HR20 tips & tricks)...and suggested a gajillion times.

The point is not to find work arounds but to discuss the lack of *DLB*(or complain/whine/[email protected]%#$, depending on who to ask). 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ShiningBengal said:


> snip
> If you don't like the thread, don't read it, and don't post to it. Seems like a simple solution?


A little harsh maybe...

Discussion is what forums are all about. 

I actually like differing points of view and discussion. I like to back-n-fourth opposite views with people.

I hope someone doesn't take anything the wrong way.....

Mike


----------



## vicmeldrew

MicroBeta said:


> That's long been the work around(see HR20 tips & tricks)...and suggested a gajillion times.
> 
> The point is not to find work arounds but to discuss the lack of *DLB*(or complain/whine/[email protected]%#$, depending on who to ask).
> 
> Mike


this wont work for all of us; for example, i will record the steelers game and watch it as i pleased; the other buffer i use to skip between other games of interest to me; if i have to record both then i lost this functionality;

i have lurked on this site for a couple of years and only have a few posts but from my perspective this has turned into a pi$$ing contest and it seems there are several people who just post to say that dlb is not that big of a deal.

they should just leave because there are many of us that want the dlb and that is the point of this forum. why would you not want this feature as it just enhances the ability to view shows?

i guess what i am saying is that if you believe dlb are not important then go and find something else to do with your time.


----------



## Fenway

vicmeldrew said:


> this wont work for all of us; for example, i will record the steelers game and watch it as i pleased; the other buffer i use to skip between other games of interest to me; if i have to record both then i lost this functionality;
> 
> i have lurked on this site for a couple of years and only have a few posts but from my perspective this has turned into a pi$$ing contest and it seems there are several people who just post to say that dlb is not that big of a deal.
> 
> they should just leave because there are many of us that want the dlb and that is the point of this forum. why would you not want this feature as it just enhances the ability to view shows?
> 
> i guess what i am saying is that if you believe dlb are not important then go and find something else to do with your time.


I agree with this post, particularly the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. I took a survey at sizethis.com about what features I, specifically, would want to see in the HR20. One of the comments made there was don't vote against something just because you wouldn't use it. It might be of value to someone else.

So for all of you who claim you don't miss DLB, or wouldn't use it - remember, there are many of us who do want and miss the feature. Why would you want to ruin our fun?


----------



## anubys

Fenway said:


> So for all of you who claim you don't miss DLB, or wouldn't use it - remember, there are many of us who do want and miss the feature. Why would you want to ruin our fun?


what a silly question!

because the world revolves around THEM, of course


----------



## ShiningBengal

Jon D said:


> I never said there shouldn't be any arguing or speculating. Only that it will not effect the implementation of dual buffers. It's like anything else. If there is enough demand across the board for something. Not just from an enthusiast forum site. We are not proportionately representative of the entire DirecTV customer base.
> 
> I also never said I don't like the thread. Your whole third line there is just rude and patronizing; not to mention gramatically incorrect. The last sentence is a declaritive statement, and thus needs a period.


Oy! Rude and patronizing? Your post implied that you objected to the content of others' posts. Where would you suggest the demand for DLB will emanate if it isn't from a site that clearly DirecTV is aware of and reads?

DBSTalk.com has a huge slice of their customer database among its membership and readership. Don't discount the value of the opinions of enthusiasts. These are probably DirecTV's best customers, and are furthermore highly likely to influence purchasing choices of friends and colleagues.

With all due respect, how do you know what is representative of the entire DirecTV customer base? Where would you suggest that DirecTV go to take the pulse of its customer base? And how do you know what will or will not influence DirecTV's implementation of DLB?

(Rhetorical questions not requiring an answer. )

By the way, "If there is enough demand across the board for something." is not a sentence as it contains no verb and no predicate. What you have written is a clause and not a sentence. Neither is, "Not just from an enthusiast forum site."

With regard to my "grammar," why would you expect the same standard of slavish adherence to the rules of punctuation that one might observe in writing a doctoral thesis when I was merely responding to a post on a satellite TV forum?

I knew precisely what I was writing when I purposely ended an implied interrogative sentence with a question mark.

(You do know what an implied interrogative is, don't you? )

People who write nearly incomprehensible prose should be careful in pointing out grammatical or syntactical errors of others.


----------



## Rocker07

vicmeldrew said:


> this wont work for all of us; for example, i will record the steelers game and watch it as i pleased; the other buffer i use to skip between other games of interest to me; if i have to record both then i lost this functionality;
> 
> i have lurked on this site for a couple of years and only have a few posts but from my perspective this has turned into a pi$$ing contest and it seems there are several people who just post to say that dlb is not that big of a deal.
> 
> they should just leave because there are many of us that want the dlb and that is the point of this forum. why would you not want this feature as it just enhances the ability to view shows?
> 
> i guess what i am saying is that if you believe dlb are not important then go and find something else to do with your time.


Couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

vicmeldrew said:


> this wont work for all of us; for example, i will record the steelers game and watch it as i pleased; the other buffer i use to skip between other games of interest to me; if i have to record both then i lost this functionality;
> 
> i have lurked on this site for a couple of years and only have a few posts but from my perspective this has turned into a pi$$ing contest and it seems there are several people who just post to say that dlb is not that big of a deal.
> 
> they should just leave because there are many of us that want the dlb and that is the point of this forum. why would you not want this feature as it just enhances the ability to view shows?
> 
> i guess what i am saying is that if you believe dlb are not important then go and find something else to do with your time.


I do think *DLB* is important. I suggest you read the whole thread before you tell someone to "_find something else to do with your time_"

I was trying to say that I am tired of hearing about the same work around over and over again. It doesn't work for me either.

My comment about complaining was sarcasim...notice the smilie....

If you notice the Single in my signature that is another issue and doesn't have anything to do with wanting *DLB*. Don't take that to mean I don't want *DLB*.

If you don't know what the *SLB* issue is read this...http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=84453

Mike


----------



## smithrh

I posted elsewhere on DBStalk about my intent to add an HR20 DVR to my DirecTivos... I'm glad I found this thread, as I won't do it until dual buffers are working. 

Oh, that Bolt James guy is on my ignore list from a totally different forum. :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

smithrh said:


> I posted elsewhere on DBStalk about my intent to add an HR20 DVR to my DirecTivos... I'm glad I found this thread, as I won't do it until dual buffers are working.
> 
> Oh, that Bolt James guy is on my ignore list from a totally different forum. :lol:


I hate to say it but I don't think the HR20 will get *DLB*. My hope is that it will be in the next HD/DVR. You might be waiting for a while.

I knew it didn't have *DLB* but upgraded anyway because of other benefits/considerations.

I don't regret it in the least. Of course I got mine in Feb, long after it was introduced, and can honestly say I haven't had a problem.

Also, I kinda assumed it would be comming...and I'll keep hoping :bang

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

MicroBeta said:


> I hate to say it but I don't think the HR20 will get *DLB*. My hope is that it will be in the next HD/DVR. You might be waiting for a while.


If it's not in this HD DVR, it won't be in the next. It's not a hardware issue; rather DirecTV _chooses _not to implement it. They can if they want; they just _choose _not to.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> If it's not in this HD DVR, it won't be in the next. It's not a hardware issue; rather DirecTV _chooses _not to implement it. They can if they want; they just _choose _not to.


Bingo...
Since this is the 2nd DirecTV DVR that hasn't had DLBs


----------



## Lord Vader

I know you know why, Earl, but I still cannot believe that of all the DVRs out there--TIVOs, DISH's, Comcast's, et. al.--DirecTV's stand virtually alone in the ranks of no DLB.


----------



## jheda

Earl, to your knowledge, is the same true of Single line buffers, allowing the live buffer to hold the pause point while viewing a recording?



Earl Bonovich said:


> Bingo...
> Since this is the 2nd DirecTV DVR that hasn't had DLBs


----------



## swconsult

I have to say this is plain absurd. My wife will not even consider using the stupid box without DLB. It is the single most important feature TIVO created. I now have to have 4 lines to my system so I can have my HD DVR and she can have her old SD DVR. I just get more benefit from the HD experience in the shows I watch, I am not as commercial intolerant.

But having said that , I really understand where she is coming from. They ened to wake up and understand thier users rather than the geeks they use to Beta this. Sorry if offend.



MicroBeta said:


> I hate to say it but I don't think the HR20 will get *DLB*. My hope is that it will be in the next HD/DVR. You might be waiting for a while.
> 
> I knew it didn't have *DLB* but upgraded anyway because of other benefits/considerations.
> 
> I don't regret it in the least. Of course I got mine in Feb, long after it was introduced, and can honestly say I haven't had a problem.
> 
> Also, I kinda assumed it would be comming...and I'll keep hoping :bang
> 
> Mike


----------



## swconsult

I mean look at this poll. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!
Just turn the feature on or at least give someone a plausible answer why you won't!


----------



## Drew2k

I started a thread about having the single live buffer retain the pause point, in my belief that we can't have DLB until we have SLB working. (That's not to say that if SLB works we'll get DLB - but let's get things working in the right order ....)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103619


----------



## puffnstuff

swconsult said:


> I mean look at this poll. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!
> Just turn the feature on or at least give someone a plausible answer why you won't!


We will never ever see the answer . I mean come on it has been over a year now and just because is a stupid answer !! Obviously they fudged up and don't want anyone to know . Also since this is the 2nd box from D* without it , what was the reason the other one doesn't have it . Are they both because of the same problem ?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> If it's not in this HD DVR, it won't be in the next. It's not a hardware issue; rather DirecTV _chooses _not to implement it. They can if they want; they just _choose _not to.


I fully understand D* chooses not to implement it. Further, I never said it was a hardware issue. If you've read anything else I've posted you'd know I've always maintained it is possible in the HR20. Probability...well that's another issue.

I believe that D* isn't going to do it on the HR20. It has all but been said so in other posts (not by me).

If it's going to happen at all, I think that the best possibility will be in the next box.

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jheda said:


> Earl, to your knowledge, is the same true of Single line buffers, allowing the live buffer to hold the pause point while viewing a recording?


I would not say it is True of SLBs...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> I know you know why, Earl, but I still cannot believe that of all the DVRs out there--TIVOs, DISH's, Comcast's, et. al.--DirecTV's stand virtually alone in the ranks of no DLB.


Funny thing that you should mention Comcast's DVR...
I was at my Aunt's house yesterday... (Sister's wedding shower).
So I was upstairs using her HD-DVR (Comcast Motorola, not sure what version).

But... it didn't even HAVE a SINGLE buffer... at least not one that I could find.
As I went to bathroom, came back and saw that Indy only had 13 points instead of 14, and wanted to see what happen.

Hit RW... nothing....

And she does have DVR service....

But I digress... Yes, I do know some of the reasons why...
And yes, I can't share them.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Funny thing that you should mention Comcast's DVR...
> I was at my Aunt's house yesterday... (Sister's wedding shower).
> So I was upstairs using her HD-DVR (Comcast Motorola, not sure what version).
> 
> But... it didn't even HAVE a SINGLE buffer... at least not one that I could find.
> As I went to bathroom, came back and saw that Indy only had 13 points instead of 14, and wanted to see what happen.
> 
> Hit RW... nothing....
> 
> And she does have DVR service....
> 
> But I digress... Yes, I do know some of the reasons why...
> And yes, I can't share them.


The Motorola 6412/6416's have DLBs. It is what many if not most Comcast areas are using. I used one for over three months and it was a one button press to switch tuners and buffers.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> The Motorola 6412/6416's have DLBs. It is what many if not most Comcast areas are using. I used one for over three months and it was a one button press to switch tuners and buffers.


It was some fancy dancy looking (relatively "state of the art" looking) DVR...
It was a MOTO box, but not sure which one... definently wasn't the same as the GI digital box my brother in law has...

But all I know....
I hit REWIND on the remote (and had been watching it for a long period of time), and it didn't rewind into a buffer.

So either it was not "intuitive" enough, even for me.... or it failed to buffer the show.

But again... I digress.... but I did find it funny...


----------



## swconsult

Folks, look at the life this topic has after 2 years. Talk about ignoring your customers! So seriously Earl, WHO DO WE COMPLAIN TO???????


----------



## Earl Bonovich

swconsult said:


> Folks, look at the life this topic has after 2 years. Talk about ignoring your customers! So seriously Earl, WHO DO WE COMPLAIN TO???????


Anyone that you want...

If you want to write a letter... send it to the Office of the President.


----------



## nhey

raott said:


> The Motorola 6412/6416's have DLBs. It is what many if not most Comcast areas are using. I used one for over three months and it was a one button press to switch tuners and buffers.


You don't understand what dual live buffers means.

I can tell with absolute certainty that the Comcast DVRs including all of their current MOTO boxes do NOT, and I repeat NOT, have DLBs. You can switch back and forth between tuners but the buffer is NOT preserved on the first tuner when you switch to the second tuner and then switch back to the first tuner. I have a Tivo Series 3 with FIOS TV service, and also had Comcast HD until 3 weeks ago when I went back to D*. Having the TIVO I know what DLB means.

So D* is definitely not alone in this unfortunate decision.


----------



## smithrh

Mainly directed at Earl:

So, is it in the realm of possibility that if enough people complain DTV will change their stance?


----------



## bhumps

Alright, time to come out of hiding. I've been lurking here a long time. Like many others, I too found this site after taking delivery of the HR20 about a year ago and turning to Google in an effort to figure out which button I needed to press in order to change tuners. I had no idea it was called DLB, I just knew every time I turned on the TV, I found two shows and surfed back and forth (I have the attention span of a third grader).

Before I get to my point, I'd like to say thanks to all who make this site the wonderful place that it is. While this may be my first post, I've started to feel like many of you are old friends over the last year.

After following this (and so many other) DLB threads, I've always been under the belief that the HR20 worked exactly like the HR10-250 in that it was utilizing tuner #1 out of the box and would change to tuner #2 only when tuner #1 was recording a show. It seemed so frustrating to me then that the only thing standing between myself and DLB was what would seem to be a simple software tweak allowing me to toggle between tuners.

During the recent launch of D10 while reading through many of the testing threads on this site I came to the conclusion that the HR20 utilizes its tuners in a different manner than its predecessor. Forgive me if this was known to everyone else or has been previously stated, but it seems to me that upon a channel change, the HR20 also changes tuners (see quote below from Stuart Sweet as one example of a few that I found).

_General troubleshooting for Channel 498 Problems

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General troubleshooting for Channel 498 Problems:

First tune to channel 498 and see if you see a Congratulation Screen (no audio), If you can, you are getting the new HD satellite! You are done!

If you instead you have a black or gray screen, try this:
*Try tuning to channel 72, then 73, then back to 498*._​
As this applies to adding DLB to the HR20, my typical scenario of finding a show on tuner #1, toggling to tuner #2 and finding another show, then toggling back and forth to watch, becomes more than just adding a "toggle tuner" function to the HR20's software. Even if we had the option to toggle to tuner #2, the minute we changed the channel, the HR20 would revert back to tuner #1 for the new channel, leaving tuner #2 where it was.

While this doesn't answer the burning question "why no DLB?" it does pose the question "why auto alternate tuners on channel change?"

My apologies if this wins the "No [email protected]# Sherlock" award but I found it interesting.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

smithrh said:


> Mainly directed at Earl:
> 
> So, is it in the realm of possibility that if enough people complain DTV will change their stance?


My honest opinion...

It's going to take a LOT to change their stance.


----------



## Lord Vader

It would help if we knew why they were so darn stubborn.


----------



## smithrh

Lord Vader said:


> It would help if we knew why they were so darn stubborn.


Well, exactly.

I can think of half a dozen reasons, but they're all quite silly.

I'd say there are 5 basic reasons why a corporation does something like this:

* Partnership issues
* Technology
* IPR issues
* Revenue issues
* Embarrassment/simple bloodymindedness

So, either they're bumping up against a contractual issue that we might be unaware of, or they're enjoined from doing it, they think it will hurt revenues, or they're being daft.

I left out technology in the second list because it sounds like that's not an issue here.

If it would take a lot for them to enable DLB, it's got to be a money issue one way or the other. "Follow the money" is probably apt advice here as in Watergate.


----------



## JohnLips

Earl Bonovich said:


> My honest opinion...
> 
> It's going to take a LOT to change their stance.


What do you mean by a LOT? Is two years of asking for it not enough? And why is it such a secret?


----------



## Lord Vader

smithrh said:


> Well, exactly.
> 
> I can think of half a dozen reasons, but they're all quite silly.
> 
> I'd say there are 5 basic reasons why a corporation does something like this:
> 
> * Partnership issues
> * Technology
> * IPR issues
> * Revenue issues
> * Embarrassment/simple bloodymindedness
> 
> So, either they're bumping up against a contractual issue that we might be unaware of, or they're enjoined from doing it, they think it will hurt revenues, or they're being daft.
> 
> I left out technology in the second list because it sounds like that's not an issue here.
> 
> If it would take a lot for them to enable DLB, it's got to be a money issue one way or the other. "Follow the money" is probably apt advice here as in Watergate.


Not a "corporation" but DirecTV specifically.

Earl has already explained that it has nothing to do with technology--they can implement it easily--and it has nothing to do with legalities. Casting these aside, I can only surmise that the reasons are ones that if revealed, would _really _tick off their customers. The fact that Earl cannot divulge these reasons leads me to believe that that just might be it.


----------



## cygnusloop

Here's a thought...

I am coming at this by thinking about how the single buffer works. The HR20 doesn't really buffer a a particular channel, it buffers _programs_ or shows. Let me say that again, the HR20's buffer is program or show based, not time based, per se. We also know that the second buffer is there, we just cant access it, except under very specific circumstances (this has been proven many times).

I am hoping that the big secret relates to what could be in the works for the buffers on the HR20. What I am thinking (or perhaps just hoping) is that these buffered _programs _will somehow be made available on some kind of list.

What I envision is a list that could be called up that contains the current set of programs that are in the buffer on _both _tuners at a given time. On that list, there would be options to watch, or perhaps to dump the program to the playlist.

I am likely way off base here, but something like this seems the only rational reason that there are no DLB's on the HR20, and the only rational reason that there has been no real feedback on this _one particular issue_, when feedback has been forthcoming on so many other issues and feature requests.


----------



## Lord Vader

Your contention is based on technological issues, which Earl has repeatedly emphasized are not the reason.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Bufferf is "program based" ?

So explain to me why in my buffer right now, is three different shows?

Journey Man, Local News, Jay Leno?


----------



## cygnusloop

Earl Bonovich said:


> Bufferf is "program based" ?
> 
> So explain to me why in my buffer right now, is three different shows?
> 
> Journey Man, Local News, Jay Leno?


If you are replying to me...

I think you misunderstood my post (I have edited to clarify). That is exactly what I am saying. Unlike the TiVo buffer, which is strictly time based, the HR20's buffer is program (or show based). It doesn't hold (necessarily) 90 minutes, but one 60 minute and one 30 minute program (for example).


----------



## cygnusloop

Lord Vader said:


> Your contention is based on technological issues, which Earl has repeatedly emphasized are not the reason.


My take on what he said was that there is no technological reason that DLB's couldn't be on the HR20. My contention is that it was a design decision.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cygnusloop said:


> If you are replying to me...
> 
> That is exactly what I am saying. Unlike the TiVo buffer, which is strictly time based, the HR20's buffer is program (or show based). It doesn't hold (necessarily) 90 minutes, but one 60 minute and one 30 minute program (for example).


Right now... in my buffer, I only have the last 30 ish minutes of Journey Man, all of the local news, and now all of Jay Leno that has aired so far.

It is a "time" base buffer... not program based.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cygnusloop said:


> My take on what he said was that there is no technological reason that DLB's couldn't be on the HR20. My contention is that it was a design decision.


That is exactly it... .it is a design/feature choice.


----------



## cygnusloop

Earl Bonovich said:


> Right now... in my buffer, I only have the last 30 ish minutes of Journey Man, all of the local news, and now all of Jay Leno that has aired so far.
> 
> It is a "time" base buffer... not program based.


Oh, I absolutely get that it is only a 90 minute long, rolling buffer. But the buffer is delineated by program, unlike the TiVo, which I think is a really cool feature. It makes it very easy to dump a buffered program to the playlist.



Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly it... .it is a design/feature choice.


Clearly, but a "choice" implies that something was chosen instead of DLB's. Something, I assume, we are not yet privy to. I know you can't say what it is, but the stubbornness, and lack of feedback _on this one issue_ is, as I am sure you know, very frustrating.

Anyway, I think I just need to step away from this thread again, for a while.


----------



## carl6

swconsult said:


> I mean look at this poll. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!
> Just turn the feature on or at least give someone a plausible answer why you won't!


When I look at the poll, I see better than 75% have said it is a must have. To me, that means I would go to another service provider to get it, or skip HD and keep an SD Tivo with DLB, or whatever. If it is a "Must have", and I don't have it, I'm going to vote with my feet and my pocketbook.

Well, that doesn't appear to be happening. While thousands scream and holler, only tens actually take action. That speaks much louder than words.

If you (collectively) seriously want DirecTV to add DLB, and it really is a "MUST have", then you need to walk the talk. Go elsewhere, and come back when DLB is available.

If you don't want to walk the talk, then maybe it's time to stop talking.

Carl


----------



## lman

carl6 said:


> When I look at the poll, I see better than 75% have said it is a must have. To me, that means I would go to another service provider to get it, or skip HD and keep an SD Tivo with DLB, or whatever. If it is a "Must have", and I don't have it, I'm going to vote with my feet and my pocketbook.
> 
> Well, that doesn't appear to be happening. While thousands scream and holler, only tens actually take action. That speaks much louder than words.
> 
> If you (collectively) seriously want DirecTV to add DLB, and it really is a "MUST have", then you need to walk the talk. Go elsewhere, and come back when DLB is available.
> 
> If you don't want to walk the talk, then maybe it's time to stop talking.
> 
> Carl


Unfortunately I have a 2 year commitment that needs to expire. I will then be looking for a provider that listens to their customers.


----------



## vicmeldrew

carl6 said:


> When I look at the poll, I see better than 75% have said it is a must have. To me, that means I would go to another service provider to get it, or skip HD and keep an SD Tivo with DLB, or whatever. If it is a "Must have", and I don't have it, I'm going to vote with my feet and my pocketbook.
> 
> Well, that doesn't appear to be happening. While thousands scream and holler, only tens actually take action. That speaks much louder than words.
> 
> If you (collectively) seriously want DirecTV to add DLB, and it really is a "MUST have", then you need to walk the talk. Go elsewhere, and come back when DLB is available.
> 
> If you don't want to walk the talk, then maybe it's time to stop talking.
> 
> Carl


well, like i said before i have my sd tivos because of the dual buffers and have not switched to HD because of this and when my tivos die or no longer are compatible i will walk. so do not categorize all of us in your statement.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly it... .it is a design/feature choice.


A "feature choice," what feature? It is an anti feature.

They are starting to act a lot like Verizon. "It's the network; if you want to use it (you do) you have to use the hardware we have crippled."

I wrote my letter to the office of the president, an exercise in futility. As long as they continue to add subscribers they don't care about what a few people would like.


----------



## anubys

DC_SnDvl said:


> A "feature choice," what feature? It is an anti feature.


I believe what Earl meant is that they chose not include that feature...


----------



## tiger2005

carl6 said:


> When I look at the poll, I see better than 75% have said it is a must have. To me, that means I would go to another service provider to get it, or skip HD and keep an SD Tivo with DLB, or whatever. If it is a "Must have", and I don't have it, I'm going to vote with my feet and my pocketbook.
> 
> Well, that doesn't appear to be happening. While thousands scream and holler, only tens actually take action. That speaks much louder than words.
> 
> If you (collectively) seriously want DirecTV to add DLB, and it really is a "MUST have", then you need to walk the talk. Go elsewhere, and come back when DLB is available.
> 
> If you don't want to walk the talk, then maybe it's time to stop talking.
> 
> Carl


OR... you could not click on this thread and stop 'inspiring' the rest of us. I don't believe that any of us that want this feature need to be preached to or advised on a course of action.

Earl has CLEARLY said before that we are more than welcome to discuss this issue as much as we like in this thread. If you don't agree, take it up with Earl.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> Unfortunately I have a 2 year commitment that needs to expire. I will then be looking for a provider that listens to their customers.


So depending on what your package is... assuming it is the average $75 a month...

You are willing to spend: $1,800 (2 years at $75)
Then to "buy out" at the $300 ($12.50 a month for 2 years; which is prorated)

If you are that unhappy... why spend the larger amount?


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly it... .it is a design/feature choice.


Things like this are exactly what puts my blood pressure off the charts. If that is the case, why does D* not explain why and the circumstances behind its exclusion? Treating us like adults would go a long way towards people understanding their position. Its not like we're asking for their trade secrets. Without any of this, we are left to speculate and guess on the reasons. The more time that goes by, the more I feel that D* is just being stubborn and doesn't want to implement this feature based on arrogance alone. Why else would they not reveal the reason, unless their 'reasoning' isn't that good to begin with? THAT is what makes me want to call them immediately and cancel my service. Unfortunately, they also have a large amount of HD coming our way so I'm left to choose between HD and DLB. At this point HD wins out, but that will be a shortlived advantage as every TV provider is going to have to supply all of these HD channels. At that point, I will very much enjoy the call to D* to cancel my service. It won't come only from the lack of DLB, but also from their lack of concern for their customers requests/feedback. Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Things like this are exactly what puts my blood pressure off the charts. If that is the case, why does D* not explain why and the circumstances behind its exclusion? Treating us like adults would go a long way towards people understanding their position. Its not like we're asking for their trade secrets. Without any of this, we are left to speculate and guess on the reasons. The more time that goes by, the more I feel that D* is just being stubborn and doesn't want to implement this feature based on arrogance alone. Why else would they not reveal the reason, unless their 'reasoning' isn't that good to begin with? THAT is what makes me want to call them immediately and cancel my service. Unfortunately, they also have a large amount of HD coming our way so I'm left to choose between HD and DLB. At this point HD wins out, but that will be a shortlived advantage as every TV provider is going to have to supply all of these HD channels. At that point, I will very much enjoy the call to D* to cancel my service. It won't come only from the lack of DLB, but also from their lack of concern for their customers requests/feedback. Sorry for the rant.


What explanation do you want.... ?

Do they have to explain every single decision with you? the customer?
In what way shoudl they explain it? Press Release? via the forum? Via a personal certified letter...

Bottom line... plain and simple... it is not a feature that is there... it was never stated to be there... it was never planned to be there... it hasn't been there for over two years.... It is not in active development to come any time in any definition of the near future...

Because... they simply have chosen not to have it in THEIR DVR platform...
Plain and simple.... for the same reasons they have chosen to make the system white... menu's on the side of the screen... using the color buttons... in their plan... for what they want on THEIR DVR platform... that is intended for the entire population of users...

They have decided not to have it there.

So let your blood pressure go... and let it fall... that is it...
And honestly... they will probably never give me the "thumbs" up to post all the details... and frankly... a lot of all your speculations are so far off the charts, I have to giggle at them at times.... but quashing them, would result in me pretty much stating the reasons....

So that is what it is... you have the facts as to what it was in the past... and as of today... and pretty much what is going to be for a while to come.

Everything that goes out to "you" as a customer... also goes out to DirecTV's competitors.... so yes.. things have to remain "secret" and basically their business model, and ultimate plans for the unit... are "trade secrets"


----------



## raott

nhey said:


> You don't understand what dual live buffers means.
> 
> I can tell with absolute certainty that the Comcast DVRs including all of their current MOTO boxes do NOT, and I repeat NOT, have DLBs. You can switch back and forth between tuners but the buffer is NOT preserved on the first tuner when you switch to the second tuner and then switch back to the first tuner. I have a Tivo Series 3 with FIOS TV service, and also had Comcast HD until 3 weeks ago when I went back to D*. Having the TIVO I know what DLB means.
> 
> So D* is definitely not alone in this unfortunate decision.


Sir, I am quite aware what dual live buffers means and I assure you, after having used the motorola 6412/6416 for over three months this summer while we were in between houses, the 6412/6416 series has DLBs and the buffer is preserved on both tuners.

It is documented in the manual which has been previously posted here.

EDIT: Here is the manual:
http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf

See page 36 for the "Swap" feature. Here is a bit of what it says:

"*Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner*. The SWAP feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
• You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
• Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
Note: *The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs*. If you change channels without using the SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


----------



## Que

A must have! *2168 76.82%*
Don't really care about it. 146 5.17%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 508 18.00%
Voters: 2822

Replies-*1,691*
Views-*92,058*


----------



## Mike Bertelson

nhey said:


> You don't understand what dual live buffers means.
> 
> I can tell with absolute certainty that the Comcast DVRs including all of their current MOTO boxes do NOT, and I repeat NOT, have DLBs. You can switch back and forth between tuners but the buffer is NOT preserved on the first tuner when you switch to the second tuner and then switch back to the first tuner. I have a Tivo Series 3 with FIOS TV service, and also had Comcast HD until 3 weeks ago when I went back to D*. Having the TIVO I know what DLB means.
> 
> So D* is definitely not alone in this unfortunate decision.


There are plenty of DVR's without *DLB*.

However, the current Comcast HD/DVR is the Motorola 6412/6416 which most definitely has *DLB*.

Please provide the model number of the Motorola box you were using. You might want to avoid telling someone their wrong and making blanket statements without model numbers. Just a suggestion... 

Mike


----------



## smithrh

Let me ask this another way to Earl:

From what you've seen, is DirecTVs stance reasonable?

From what I - a long time paying customer - can see, it is not.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

smithrh said:


> Let me ask this another way to Earl:
> 
> From what you've seen, is DirecTVs stance reasonable?
> 
> From what I - a long time paying customer - can see, it is not.


I can't answer that question... 
With respects to the lack of DLB.
As I do have a lot more information to the "puzzle".

But do I think their stance of not "telling" the exact information on why is reasonable... Yes, I do.

I too am a LONG time paying customer... almost 10 years


----------



## sshams95

Folks, judging from these comments, I don't know how anyone here thinks D* will offer DLB any time soon...or ever. Sure, we can continue bang the drum, but I'm losing hope. I've created my own work-arounds to simulate DLB, a lot of it costs money. From family pressure, I got the Dish 722 due to its international programming. They offered me a very good deal and free HD for 6 months. So, now I have the Dish 722 and DTV HR20 and HR10...all in one room hooked up to my 73". The 722 has PIP and it can PIP 2 HD channels.

So, on Saturdays...for college football, I use the 722 to follow multiple games. Then I have my HR20 connected to my Slingbox so I follow a 3rd game on my laptop.

On Sundays, I use the HR10 and HR20 on my TV's PIP function. And through Supercast on my laptop, I follow the Red Zone Channel or a 3rd game.

During the week, when I'm not watching football, I use the 722 to follow two shows. It is very easy to switch tuners on the 722.

Now, this is what I suggest to those who can do it. If not, there has to be some other type of workarounds that can be suggested. Perhaps other users can offer what they have done to alleviate the lack of DLBs on the HR20.

Until then, continue to bang the drum....but I doubt we will ever see DLB on the HR20 and especially so if D* feels compelled to not let us know why they can't offer it due to a myriad of reasons, including competitition.


----------



## celticpride

:nono2: I miss my DLB i had with tivo,last night i tried watching the indians-yankees game and the cowboys -bills game, but eveytime i changed channels i lost my buffer ,thats why i like buffers you can watch 2 games at same time. i guess i'll just watch 1 live and record the other from now on.


----------



## M3Rocket

The question is then do we focus on getting the pause point on SLB to work properly since D* won't give us DLB on the HR20? Or is that also a lost cause? Earl?


----------



## Drew2k

M3Rocket said:


> The question is then do we focus on getting the pause point on SLB to work properly since D* won't give us DLB on the HR20? Or is that also a lost cause? Earl?


Here was Earl's earlier response in this thread about SLB ...



Earl Bonovich said:


> jheda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Earl, to your knowledge, is the same true of Single line buffers, allowing the live buffer to hold the pause point while viewing a recording?
> 
> 
> 
> I would not say it is True of SLBs...
Click to expand...

If you are interested in SLB, please see the thread below and remember to vote in the Wish List Survey (linked in the thread below).

Forget DLB ... Who wants SLBPP while playing back a recording?


----------



## Gotchaa

Earl Bonovich said:


> What explanation do you want.... ?
> 
> Do they have to explain every single decision with you? the customer?
> In what way shoudl they explain it? Press Release? via the forum? Via a personal certified letter...
> 
> Bottom line... plain and simple... it is not a feature that is there... it was never stated to be there... it was never planned to be there... it hasn't been there for over two years.... It is not in active development to come any time in any definition of the near future...
> 
> Because... they simply have chosen not to have it in THEIR DVR platform...
> Plain and simple.... for the same reasons they have chosen to make the system white... menu's on the side of the screen... using the color buttons... in their plan... for what they want on THEIR DVR platform... that is intended for the entire population of users...
> 
> They have decided not to have it there.
> 
> So let your blood pressure go... and let it fall... that is it...
> And honestly... they will probably never give me the "thumbs" up to post all the details... and frankly... a lot of all your speculations are so far off the charts, I have to giggle at them at times.... but quashing them, would result in me pretty much stating the reasons....
> 
> So that is what it is... you have the facts as to what it was in the past... and as of today... and pretty much what is going to be for a while to come.
> 
> Everything that goes out to "you" as a customer... also goes out to DirecTV's competitors.... so yes.. things have to remain "secret" and basically their business model, and ultimate plans for the unit... are "trade secrets"


Thanks Earl that is very clear and saved me from reading this entire thread again.

So when are we getting the Dual Buffers?


----------



## waporvare

Earl Bonovich said:


> What explanation do you want.... ?
> 
> Do they have to explain every single decision with you? the customer?
> In what way shoudl they explain it? Press Release? via the forum? Via a personal certified letter...
> 
> Bottom line... plain and simple... it is not a feature that is there... it was never stated to be there... it was never planned to be there... it hasn't been there for over two years.... It is not in active development to come any time in any definition of the near future...
> 
> Because... they simply have chosen not to have it in THEIR DVR platform...
> Plain and simple.... for the same reasons they have chosen to make the system white... menu's on the side of the screen... using the color buttons... in their plan... for what they want on THEIR DVR platform... that is intended for the entire population of users...
> 
> They have decided not to have it there.
> 
> So let your blood pressure go... and let it fall... that is it...
> And honestly... they will probably never give me the "thumbs" up to post all the details... and frankly... a lot of all your speculations are so far off the charts, I have to giggle at them at times.... but quashing them, would result in me pretty much stating the reasons....
> 
> So that is what it is... you have the facts as to what it was in the past... and as of today... and pretty much what is going to be for a while to come.
> 
> Everything that goes out to "you" as a customer... also goes out to DirecTV's competitors.... so yes.. things have to remain "secret" and basically their business model, and ultimate plans for the unit... are "trade secrets"


But... wouldn't directv want to please the majority of it's customers if possible? The poll speaks for itself. Granted it's just a sampling of people with Directv but it's most likely falls in line with the majority of dvr users. Even J6P. Consider it a straw poll. They seem to be important in elections.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> What explanation do you want.... ?
> 
> Do they have to explain every single decision with you? the customer?
> In what way shoudl they explain it? Press Release? via the forum? Via a personal certified letter...
> 
> Bottom line... plain and simple... it is not a feature that is there... it was never stated to be there... it was never planned to be there... it hasn't been there for over two years.... It is not in active development to come any time in any definition of the near future...
> 
> Because... they simply have chosen not to have it in THEIR DVR platform...
> Plain and simple.... for the same reasons they have chosen to make the system white... menu's on the side of the screen... using the color buttons... in their plan... for what they want on THEIR DVR platform... that is intended for the entire population of users...
> 
> They have decided not to have it there.
> 
> So let your blood pressure go... and let it fall... that is it...
> And honestly... they will probably never give me the "thumbs" up to post all the details... and frankly... a lot of all your speculations are so far off the charts, I have to giggle at them at times.... but quashing them, would result in me pretty much stating the reasons....
> 
> So that is what it is... you have the facts as to what it was in the past... and as of today... and pretty much what is going to be for a while to come.
> 
> Everything that goes out to "you" as a customer... also goes out to DirecTV's competitors.... so yes.. things have to remain "secret" and basically their business model, and ultimate plans for the unit... are "trade secrets"


Include a note about DLB as a FAQ in the manual indicating its not available on this model due to VoD, etc., post the explanation in the forums, etc. Its a feature that was available on their previous HDDVR (HR10) and its a feature available on most of their SDDVR's (DirecTivo). The least they can do is inform THEIR CUSTOMERS that they shouldn't expect this feature on the D* DVR's going forward. Period. I find it difficult to believe that the features 'conflicting' with DLB will give ANY advantage to their competitors. Remember, these are the same competitors that ALREADY offer DLB on their boxes.

Based on the posts in this thread alone, a good amount of people have found this forum searching for how to switch the tuners on D*'s new "upgraded" box because it was a feature many people EXPECT to be there when "upgrading". If they release this information out to the public in these areas, then its the user's own fault for not knowing what they were getting into ahead of time. Why could they not develop a 'What Has Changed' document for those upgrading? List the changes and put that on their website. But for D* to ignore the issue/feature and then lock THEIR CUSTOMERS into a 2 year agreement without them knowing what they are getting into...its inexcusable. Things like this are the LEAST they could do to inform their customers. As it stands now, the only way to know for sure that its not available on their boxes is to search the net and, luckily, find a forum such as this to know what you're getting into. Things like this are why their industry scores HORRIBLY in customer satisfaction survey's.

And, yes, I prioritize HD content over DLB at this point but as I said previously that's a short-term advantage for them. I know that once more TV providers come online with their HD packages, I'll evaluate my options at that time and possibly leave my 10 year committment to D* behind.


----------



## dpd0961

Earl Bonovich said:


> What explanation do you want.... ?
> 
> Do they have to explain every single decision with you? the customer?
> In what way shoudl they explain it? Press Release? via the forum? Via a personal certified letter...
> 
> Bottom line... plain and simple... it is not a feature that is there... it was never stated to be there... it was never planned to be there... it hasn't been there for over two years.... It is not in active development to come any time in any definition of the near future...
> 
> Because... they simply have chosen not to have it in THEIR DVR platform...
> Plain and simple.... for the same reasons they have chosen to make the system white... menu's on the side of the screen... using the color buttons... in their plan... for what they want on THEIR DVR platform... that is intended for the entire population of users...
> 
> They have decided not to have it there.
> 
> So let your blood pressure go... and let it fall... that is it...
> And honestly... they will probably never give me the "thumbs" up to post all the details... and frankly... a lot of all your speculations are so far off the charts, I have to giggle at them at times.... but quashing them, would result in me pretty much stating the reasons....
> 
> So that is what it is... you have the facts as to what it was in the past... and as of today... and pretty much what is going to be for a while to come.
> 
> Everything that goes out to "you" as a customer... also goes out to DirecTV's competitors.... so yes.. things have to remain "secret" and basically their business model, and ultimate plans for the unit... are "trade secrets"


Hi Earl,

Not sure you can answer this one or not. You have stated in the past that although you can't give us the details on why DLB is not in D*'s plans, it will all become clear at some point. It has been 2 years since they have put DLB on one of their boxes, can you give us any insight on when that point of clarity may come?

Thank you very much.


----------



## jtoast

Got a friend who works in DirecTV's new case management division. He said that the main reason that there is no dual tuner buffer is that the second tuner is used for system updates when not actively recording and it would be a huge pain to make the updates work if they enabled the buffers. 

He also said that the buffer is "tentatively" on the list of features for a 3 tuner DVR but its not confirmed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jtoast said:


> Got a friend who works in DirecTV's new case management division. He said that the main reason that there is no dual tuner buffer is that the second tuner is used for system updates when not actively recording and it would be a huge pain to make the updates work if they enabled the buffers.
> 
> He also said that the buffer is "tentatively" on the list of features for a 3 tuner DVR but its not confirmed.


Not sure where your friend is getting the information, but that too would be on the "not correct" list....

The same way a TiVo can process it's system update, it would detect "downtime" in the usage of the background tuner, and would continue with it's processing. (aka... when the "buffer" isn't actively recording)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dpd0961 said:


> Hi Earl,
> 
> Not sure you can answer this one or not. You have stated in the past that although you can't give us the details on why DLB is not in D*'s plans, it will all become clear at some point. It has been 2 years since they have put DLB on one of their boxes, can you give us any insight on when that point of clarity may come?
> 
> Thank you very much.


Wish I could... but I can't....


----------



## jtoast

I complained about the lack of dual tuners to him a few weeks ago. He said he forwarded my email to engineering and that was the response he got back. I will see if I can get a copy of the response.


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm sure that response was simply one intended to keep people quiet, a "this will settle it" statement.


----------



## swconsult

So Earl. Don't take this wrong but you should call yourself a paid customer, not a paying customer. Argue it all you want, but you do talk the company line 90% of the time.

D* has the right to make business decisions and not tell people. I have the right to choose carriers. Unfortunately no option is perfect and D* is the best so I won't change. 

It appears this feature is important to the majority of users.
It is common, nearly a gold standard, in DVRs overall.
It is technically possible to do with the HR20 (your statement)

What I want to know Earl is have you specifically showed this poll to D* and have you specifically told them that it is an issue that won't go away?

My solution as I said is having two DVRs attached to my TV. Bty that's great, my wife has the little black remote and I use the white one. I enjoy HD more. Guess D* sees that as a beautiful solution. Point to ponder, they do NOT get extra revenue from me keeping the old SD DVR box connected!

Your response to me to write a letter to the Office of the President was insulting. Of course I've thought of this. What we want is an answer to the question of why can't you tell us what you've done about this with D*. We all know you meet with them regularly and you buffer (forgive the use of the word) our anger to them by moderating this forum. I do beleive that is valuable but I am at a loss to see why we can't have some influence on decision making. 

WHAT WOULD IT HURT TO TURN THIS ON?!!!!!!!!
Honestly what harm could it do??


----------



## Que

carl6 said:


> When I look at the poll, I see better than 75% have said it is a must have. To me, that means I would go to another service provider to get it, or skip HD and keep an SD Tivo with DLB, or whatever. If it is a "Must have", and I don't have it, I'm going to vote with my feet and my pocketbook.
> 
> Well, that doesn't appear to be happening. While thousands scream and holler, only tens actually take action. That speaks much louder than words.
> 
> If you (collectively) seriously want DirecTV to add DLB, and it really is a "MUST have", then you need to walk the talk. Go elsewhere, and come back when DLB is available.
> 
> If you don't want to walk the talk, then maybe it's time to stop talking.
> 
> Carl


I don't know how I missed this one but..

My options are D*, E* and Charter. E* and Charter both have DLB. I have been with D* for 9+ years. There customer service has been great and would hate to leave them. I think they also have the best price package. Have a buddy that has Charter and he has no problem with them. Only thing I might have to wait for a cable box. I am happy with D*, I just want there DVR to catch up with the others. I still have no idea why there DVR are the only one without DLB.

When my HR10-250 no longer works, then I might have to make up my mind. I would really be happy if I didn't have to go somewhere else.

[edit] Package deal on Charter will be higher. Have no idea on how much on E*.


----------



## Surfguy

I just upgraded to the HR20-100S and boy am I missing those duel buffers! This is withdrawal...bigtime. Can I bum a smoke? I can't stop shaking. This...is...not...good. Ouch. lol


----------



## cygnusloop

Surfguy said:


> I just upgraded to the HR20-100S and boy am I missing those duel buffers! This is withdrawal...bigtime. Can I bum a smoke? I can't stop shaking. This...is...not...good. Ouch. lol


:welcome_s to DBSTalk, Surfguy.

Don't let the lack of DLB get ya down to much. Otherwise, I think it's a really nice DVR with a lot to offer. The withdrawal is tough, and for a while, it will drive you :icon_stup (believe me, I know), but you will find other things to appreciated about this box.

Here's a smoke: :alterhase


----------



## rawilson

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly it... .it is a design/feature choice.


I "upgraded" to an HR20 about two weeks ago. Been using Tivo with D* for years. My problem is that I purchased a product/service from D*. In the process of "upgrading" to an HD DVR, I quickly found out that I lost one of the most important features (to me) that I had come to rely on for years. Didn't really consiously realize I depend so much on the DLB's of the my Tivo-based units, but it has become extremely apparant that I did now that I don't have it.

We now go upstairs to watch non-HD content on our old unit. In retrospect, I'm not sure we would've bought the $1200 TV...or maybe we would have given the other satellite provider a chance before locking in to another 2 years without this feature.

Completely destroys the way I watch sports.

So, for me, as a subscriber to a service, it is not simply a design/feature choice. It is REMOVING a feature I've learned to take for granted in what was supposed to be an upgrade.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rawilson said:


> what was supposed to be an upgrade.


Where was it stated to be an upgrade?

It is a new product line... an upgrade would be a new DTiVo box, that runs updated software.

This is as much as an upgrade... as going from an iPOD to a ZUNE because the ZUNE because it can access a different media format, would be called an upgrade.


----------



## Brian7270

I found this forum trying to search how to change tuners having just "upgraded" to this box. 

This is such a mind numbingly simple to understand requirement for a DVR that it is obvious only a company as large as Directv could fail to include this in their flagship product. Truly unbelievable obtuseness...

Brian


----------



## regularguy

I'm getting ready to have my last tivo replaced with an HR20. The night before the tech was supposed to come (he didn't show), I watched the tivo using the dual buffers just to get my last fix in. It was freaking great. 

I get that it's a choice, and I understand the point that different providers will choose different features for different reasons. I also get that directv is currently in position to not really give a crap with anyone thinks about their features since they currently have the products and infrastructure to take a my-way-or-the-highway approach. They are not far from becoming what made cable so bloated and annoying. I suppose they will get that way some day, and some new directv-like product will come out and we'll all switch to the cool new thing. But that's not happening today or in the near future.

What's puzzling to me is that it's such a bedfuddling choice for directv to make. It's such a great and well regarded feature. If a new cel phone provider came out with a great new product that allowed you to do stuff that other cel phones couldn't do, but refused to have voice mail without explanation, I think those who signed up would raise the same kind of ruckus that's raised here.


----------



## Peapod

rawilson said:


> I "upgraded" to an HR20 about two weeks ago. Been using Tivo with D* for years. My problem is that I purchased a product/service from D*. In the process of "upgrading" to an HD DVR, I quickly found out that I lost one of the most important features (to me) that I had come to rely on for years. Didn't really consiously realize I depend so much on the DLB's of the my Tivo-based units, but it has become extremely apparant that I did now that I don't have it.


As someone who replaced an HR10-250 with an HR20 about a year ago, I understand how it affects your sports watching, especially on Saturdays and Sundays at the end of the year. This was one of the more difficult transitions for me.

What I do when I want to watch two sports events at once it just hit record on each, and then switch between the two using the menu (4 or 5 button presses to switch). When I am done, I just hit record again and select stop and delete.

It's definitely not as easy as just hitting down to switch, but it's also not so annoying that I would setup a macro on my remote to do it for me. Would I like the down button to switch me to another currently recording show automatically? I would REALLY love that. However, all the channels I will not ever be able to get with the HR10-250 and the painful speed of changing season passes easily balance that out.


----------



## rawilson

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where was it stated to be an upgrade?
> 
> It is a new product line... an upgrade would be a new DTiVo box, that runs updated software.
> 
> This is as much as an upgrade... as going from an iPOD to a ZUNE because the ZUNE because it can access a different media format, would be called an upgrade.


We can split hairs all we want. I'm paying for a service from D*. Maybe if I'd switched to a different service provider, I'd buy that. In order to upgrade my existing service to HD, I do not expect to have to downgrade my DVR. Again, I'm now paying more for HD (which is fine, that's what I expected) and I'm paying the same for a less functional DVR....except that now I also have to lease the box. Not what I was expecting. Guess my expectation of not having the DVR functionality regress was too high. I don't really care if it's Tivo or DirectDVR or whatever...I'm still buying a service from the same company and I'm now locked in to this thing for 2 years.


----------



## Surfguy

I agree with regularguy. DirecTV should comment on these types of things instead of leaving their entire customer base with a WTF on their minds...not knowing anything. Therefore, I feel DirecTV is ignoring their customers. I can only assume they don't care what we think of their product. It's not the best way to do business. Their basically saying "take it or leave it" with no explanation. I think that SUCKS. Most people will stay because they want their HD channel line-up...but it's almost like staying because someone is pointing a gun at your head. My understanding is Dish offers dual buffers on their DVR...just not as many HD channels. Why wouldn't you strive to match the features of your competitor's DVR? Or, just do the right thing? 

The way it sounds from all the reading in this thread and others...is DirecTV has something up their sleeves in the future in the way of a future product down the road which will address this...but they don't want to leak those plans. So, their position is one of silence until such time.

Why wouldn't you want to make an improvement to a service that:

a.) Is what the majority of customers not only want...but expect
b.) Is a contentious issue that actually reduces their customer base cause they go with someone else who is doing DLB
c.) Can improve their DVR product, customer experience, and customer satisfaction by a high margin

DirecTV is weird. I don't get it. I can only assume one of the following (cause I don't know any better):

a.) they don't care
b.) they care but can't do it for whatever reason
c.) they care and can do it...but only on a future product (e.g. 3 tuner DVR)
d.) it's not high priority compared to other stuff which is going on (even though it is at the top of the requested enhancements list)
e.) their stupid idiots who lack sense

The fact is DLB is a revolution in the way we watch TV for those that use it. All these other features cannot make up for that. Without DLB, I feel that watching TV is akin to single-tasking when most of us are excellent multi-taskers who like to juggle our viewing using buffers. This is a loss that is difficult to compensate for with cheap workarounds. Yes, Tivo spoiled us. But, DirecTV went with Tivo. In my view, they should have identified this feature as a must-have in the early development of the software and went with it...because most of their customers were already using it. Instead, we get a black hole of silence.

When they keep us in the dark like this, we can only assume what their problems are in this regard. Most of us have "upgraded" for HD but feel we have been "downgraded" at the same time. That's a crappy feeling, man. Why any company would put their customer through that without explanation boggles the mind.


----------



## Rocker07

Surfguy said:


> I just upgraded to the HR20-100S and boy am I missing those duel buffers! This is withdrawal...bigtime. Can I bum a smoke? I can't stop shaking. This...is...not...good. Ouch. lol


Welcome to our hell.......BTW, you won't find answers here, only more questions.


----------



## Rocker07

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where was it stated to be an upgrade?
> 
> It is a new product line... an upgrade would be a new DTiVo box, that runs updated software.
> 
> This is as much as an upgrade... as going from an iPOD to a ZUNE because the ZUNE because it can access a different media format, would be called an upgrade.


Well, we can agree on one thing, it certainly ISN'T an "upgrade".


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where was it stated to be an upgrade?


Actually, DirecTV themselves calls it an upgrade. They've even advertised to upgrade to their HD DVR for those who had older TIVO units.


----------



## lman

I noticed that the percentage for DLB "must have" on this poll keeps rising. I'm sure DTV and Earl hoped that this issue would just die. It doesn't look like that's going to happen.


----------



## Que

Made a poll to find out how many people sent in snail mail letters to D* http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103897


----------



## Que

lman said:


> I noticed that the percentage for DLB "must have" on this poll keeps rising.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1019131#post1019131

From almost 3 months ago.

A must have! *1545 75.88%*
Don't really care about it. 121 5.94%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 370 18.17%
Voters: 2036.

Replies 1,018 Views 59,638

and now...

A must have! *2212 77.05%*
Don't really care about it. 147 5.12%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 512 17.83%
Voters: 2871.

Replies 1,724 Views 93,970


----------



## dennisj00

I'm sorry, but reading this thread, there is NO excuse that the HR20 doesn't at least give us 1 buffer, much less 2! Other than selecting record, I have found no way to change a channel and not lose the existing buffer -- and even if you're recording the channel, it doesn't return you where you were.

My Sony Sat60 DTV TIVO is EXACTLY the way two buffers should work! I'd love to have ONE buffer that works.


----------



## wmj5

does anyone know when fox news is going hd?


----------



## Lord Vader

I think regular FOX News goes HD sometime in early 2008.


----------



## dennisj00

What does Fox going HD have to do with dual buffers?


----------



## msmith198025

dennisj00 said:


> I'm sorry, but reading this thread, there is NO excuse that the HR20 doesn't at least give us 1 buffer, much less 2! Other than selecting record, I have found no way to change a channel and not lose the existing buffer -- and even if you're recording the channel, it doesn't return you where you were.
> 
> My Sony Sat60 DTV TIVO is EXACTLY the way two buffers should work! I'd love to have ONE buffer that works.


um it does give you one


----------



## dennisj00

It does give you one but it's somewhat useless.

I am relatively new to the HR20 - less than a month - but a longtime user / hacker of Tivos. So I may not know all the tricks.

I can find no way to switch a different channel (second tuner) and preserve the single buffer. Even if you pause the buffer and go to watch a recording, when you return to the buffer, it's current - not where you paused.

The dual tuner T60 allowed full visibility and control of either tuner / buffer. You could easily watch two programs by pausing and skipping commercials.

Again, I see no excuse that the HR20 couldn't do this. And if I'm missing something, please let me know.


----------



## ShiningBengal

dennisj00 said:


> It does give you one but it's somewhat useless.
> 
> I am relatively new to the HR20 - less than a month - but a longtime user / hacker of Tivos. So I may not know all the tricks.
> 
> I can find no way to switch a different channel (second tuner) and preserve the single buffer. Even if you pause the buffer and go to watch a recording, when you return to the buffer, it's current - not where you paused.
> 
> The dual tuner T60 allowed full visibility and control of either tuner / buffer. You could easily watch two programs by pausing and skipping commercials.
> 
> Again, I see no excuse that the HR20 couldn't do this. And if I'm missing something, please let me know.


You aren't missing anything. The buffer can be used ONLY if you don't switch tuners.

The kludgy work-around is that you can record each channel you want to watch and pause it when you want to return to the other channel using the guide. Then you can go to another channel, record it, and then pause it when you want to go back to the first channel.

I haven't actually tried this because of the obvious shortcoming that if the scheduled recording ends while you have it paused, you cannot return to it without first going to playlist, then finding the recording, and then trying to find the spot you want to return to.

I can't believe that some people think this is in any way equivalent to the functionality of DLB.


----------



## waporvare

Well, at least this poll proves that Directv is all about giving the consumer what THEY want.


----------



## ShiningBengal

msmith198025 said:


> um it does give you one


Sort of. If you tune away from the channel to see what's on another channel, you lose the buffer. The only thing the single buffer gives you is the ability to pause, fast forward, and rewind, and only as long as you remain tuned to that channel and don't try to access the second tuner.

As soon as you leave that "buffered" channel, the buffer disappears. If you return to the channel, whatever was buffered is gone, kaput, zilch, nada.

It isn't anywhere near as useful as DLB. It isn't even half as useful as one might think because of the disappearing act that the HR20 SLB performs if you tune away.


----------



## markman07

I have both the hr10-250 and hr20-700 in my setup. When using the HR20 (for the interactive features) watching NFL action via the NFL ticket I cant' tell you how many times I keep pressing down on the remote thinking I can switch to the other tuner! Frustrating.


----------



## furjaw

TiVo must have a patent on dual live buffers!
I was over a relative's house the other day and I couldn't switch between tuners on their Time-Warner cable DVR.


----------



## ShiningBengal

furjaw said:


> TiVo must have a patent on dual live buffers!
> I was over a relative's house the other day and I couldn't switch between tuners on their Time-Warner cable DVR.


Not so. Not in the least. Do a search in this thread and you will find that many if not most DVR's, even the oldest, have DLB.


----------



## islander66

dennisj00 said:


> I'm sorry, but reading this thread, there is NO excuse that the HR20 doesn't at least give us 1 buffer, much less 2! Other than selecting record, I have found no way to change a channel and not lose the existing buffer -- and even if you're recording the channel, it doesn't return you where you were.
> 
> My Sony Sat60 DTV TIVO is EXACTLY the way two buffers should work! I'd love to have ONE buffer that works.


If you need a simple work around. You can start recording both shows, then push List to take you to the recording list, start playing one, then pause, and start playing the other.

When you pause one and go back to the recorded list, via the List button, select the other recording it "resumes" where you left off.

It's really easy. I'm not saying it's better than DLB, just the only work around for the HR20.

You can also go to the recorded list to play a single recording, and when you surf around it will take you back to the same place you left, without having to push pause.

I just wanted to pass this on, and don't want to offend anyone who is missing the DLB, as I have never used a Tivo, and had to figure this out myself.


----------



## islander66

I just read a few pages here, and the I'm not convinced the dual 30 minute buffers is an advantage to simply recording two shows and switching back and forth via the List button.

I would much rather have the capacity to record these shows also.

You can't record two and surf around, but you also can't buffer 2 and surf around without losing the buffer.

Anyway I'm brand new to the HR20, and find the dual record option quite functional.


----------



## Lord Vader

islander66 said:


> Anyway I'm brand new to the HR20, and find the dual record option quite functional.


Sure, if you like utilizing a dozen or so keystrokes and exercising your fingers a lot.


----------



## islander66

Lord Vader said:


> Sure, if you like utilizing a dozen or so keystrokes and exercising your fingers a lot.


It's actually simple for me. There is only a few simple keystrokes, (pause, list, select) and you are at the other recording.

That's easier than changing a channel through the guide.

Anyway, I'm not getting into a debate here, just wanted to add this work around, and my experience.

I hope this is a hospitable forum that respects other people's views. If you have something to add, please do so without dragging me into it.


----------



## primetime

I used my work around on Saturday night switching between the baseball playoff game and the Cal/Oregon State game. 

I recorded the football game on VS. and had the other tuner on the Red Sox/Indians game. I started watching the football game by choosing it from the list menu and when I wanted to watch the baseball game I hit exit and it took me back to the baseball game which was buffering on my 2nd tuner and I could rewind to when some runs scored or just watch for awhile. When I wanted to go back to the football game I just hit list, selected the game and hit resume play and it picked up right where I left off I didn't even use the pause button just exit from the recording and it takes me back to the last channel I watched which was the buffering baseball game. I didn't try and pause the baseball game to keep going from the same spot but rather just did a rewind if I was that interested in what I may have missed.


----------



## Lord Vader

> _Originally posted by islander66_*
> It's actually simple for me. There is only a few simple keystrokes, (pause, list, select) and you are at the other recording.
> 
> That's easier than changing a channel through the guide.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not getting into a debate here, just wanted to add this work around, and my experience.
> 
> I hope this is a hospitable forum that respects other people's views. If you have something to add, please do so without dragging me into it.*


Oh, loosen up those panties already. Not all of us like pressing pause--list--select--up--down--jump around on one foot--tap top of head three times...just to do the workaround.


----------



## lman

islander66 said:


> It's actually simple for me. There is only a few simple keystrokes, (pause, list, select) and you are at the other recording.
> 
> That's easier than changing a channel through the guide.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not getting into a debate here, just wanted to add this work around, and my experience.
> 
> I hope this is a hospitable forum that respects other people's views. If you have something to add, please do so without dragging me into it.


You forgot about the keystrokes to set up the recording and then deleting the program and then if you decide after 15 minutes that you don't want to watch the program you have to do it all over with another program.


----------



## islander66

Lord Vader said:


> Oh, loosen up those panties already. Not all of us like pressing pause--list--select--up--down--jump around on one foot--tap top of head three times...just to do the workaround.


If you go back to my first post, I said the workaround may not be as useful as the dual buffers in all situations. But the first post of this thread should provide the workaround also, as saying there is no workaround, seems inaccurate.

I could see myself using the DLB, although there is only one extra step in navigating between recordings.

Anyway, I hope the DLB is available if all things else can remain the same.

I certainly wouldn't want to pay $800 for it, or give up PQ.

Anyway, if it wasn't for you all complaining so much about this feature I never would have learned of the workaround. So, that' s progress.


----------



## islander66

lman said:


> You forgot about the keystrokes to set up the recording and then deleting the program and then if you decide after 15 minutes that you don't want to watch the program you have to do it all over with another program.


Exactly, that's why you should provide the workaround in the first post and let people decide for themselves.

That's not too much trouble for me. You can do that through the guide menu, then clean up by pushing the dash twice. But, yeah, if you are just surfing around the less steps the better.

The disadvantage is that you have a limited buffer.

I still think the HR20 is quite functional.


----------



## Lord Vader

Program the workaround as an activity in a Harmony remote--macros limit one to 5 keystrokes--and maybe it'll be even easier.


----------



## mtnagel

I've said it before, but you can also use STOP, then DOWN or UP once, and then PLAY. So that's 3 keystrokes. Which is 1 more than Tivo's PAUSE, then Down Arrow. 

Of course, this is after setting up both recordings, but with Tivo, you still have to tune to both channels to set up the buffering.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

islander66 said:


> If you need a simple work around. You can start recording both shows, then push List to take you to the recording list, start playing one, then pause, and start playing the other.
> 
> When you pause one and go back to the recorded list, via the List button, select the other recording it "resumes" where you left off.
> 
> It's really easy. I'm not saying it's better than DLB, just the only work around for the HR20.
> 
> You can also go to the recorded list to play a single recording, and when you surf around it will take you back to the same place you left, without having to push pause.
> 
> I just wanted to pass this on, and don't want to offend anyone who is missing the DLB, as I have never used a Tivo, and had to figure this out myself.


Can't you use the "previous" button to go back and forth between the 2 recorded shows?


----------



## islander66

theratpatrol said:


> Can't you use the "previous" button to go back and forth between the 2 recorded shows?


I'm afraid it doesn't keep the place where you left off watching. You will go to the very front then have to rewind where you left off. You can start watching a recording in the playlist then surf around and when you go back it will stay where you left it. But if you start the recording and don't go back to the playlist and start play there, this wont work.

However, it should be noted that the latest software update added the delete function and the "resume" function in the recorded menu, which makes the work around easier then when this thread started.

So maybe they can do a software patch to simply use the Previous button and not have to rewind?


----------



## islander66

Wow! You don't even have to push pause when you switch back and forth between the two recorded shows.

Just push List then select Resume which is the first choice. 

It doesn't get much easier than that!


----------



## ToddinVA

islander66 said:


> Wow! You don't even have to push pause when you switch back and forth between the two recorded shows.
> 
> Just push List then select Resume which is the first choice.
> 
> It doesn't get much easier than that!


Do you work for DirecTV or something?? :grin:


----------



## anubys

I do this:

pause
previous
up (or down)
play

since the two recorded shows are next to each other, that's all you need to do...I'm not sure you even need to press the pause at the start but I do it just because I don't trust it...

so it's 4 stokes instead of 1 for the Tivo...the other disadvantage is you can't decide to change to a third show to do the dual watching thing without a lot of work...

it's a decent workaround...but the DLB would be better...


----------



## islander66

ToddinVA said:


> Do you work for DirecTV or something?? :grin:


Your in deep! I'm only sharing the workaround. While some people would rather not share this in hopes of increasing chances for DLB.

I think you are shooting yourself it the foot. The more people who use the workaround will want it improved.

D* will also think you are just too dumb to use the DVR, if you say there is no workaround.

I would like the work-around to be improved so that Previous keeps the same place.

Because you can already record one and surf around on the other tuner, which is exactly what you are doing with the DLB. You also don't have the limited 30 minute buffer when you want to record both.


----------



## raott

islander66 said:


> Wow! You don't even have to push pause when you switch back and forth between the two recorded shows.
> 
> Just push List then select Resume which is the first choice.
> 
> It doesn't get much easier than that!


What you guys who tout the workaround always leave out when trying to convince everyone else how "easy" it is is:
- first you have to record both shows and then delete later

- if you are surfing and not sure which game you want to flip between or decide one game isn't good and you want to buffer another there is a couple of more additional steps on top of the additional steps you already have to do (ie change the channel, tell it yeah I really want to stop recording, go to new channel, hit record again)

- if you are trying to buffer between something like local news, news or ESPNNews (ie trying to keep up with other scores) which is only a half hour long, you are going to lose your buffer as soon as the the half hour mark hits and your recording stops and the "workaround" no longer works without recording again

- if you are using the R15 you are very likely to be up against the 100 to-do limit and have to go more extra steps to tell it what show not to record in the future

- if the game you are flipping between runs long, your recording is over and the buffer is gone without more extra steps to extend the padding

I much prefer the one touch buffer swap of both Tivo and cable's Motorola boxes (can't speak for dish or sci-atlanta boxes b/c I've never used them)


----------



## islander66

raott said:


> What you guys who tout the workaround always leave out when trying to convince everyone else how "easy" it is is:
> - first you have to record both shows and then delete later
> 
> - if you are surfing and not sure which game you want to flip between or decide one game isn't good and you want to buffer another there is a couple of more additional steps on top of the additional steps you already have to do (ie change the channel, tell it yeah I really want to stop recording, go to new channel, hit record again)
> 
> - if you are trying to buffer between something like local news, news or ESPNNews (ie trying to keep up with other scores) which is only a half hour long, you are going to lose your buffer as soon as the the half hour mark hits and your recording stops and the "workaround" no longer works without recording again
> 
> - if you are using the R15 you are very likely to be up against the 100 to-do limit and have to go more extra steps to tell it what show not to record in the future
> 
> - if the game you are flipping between runs long, your recording is over and the buffer is gone without more extra steps to extend the padding
> 
> I much prefer the one touch buffer swap of both Tivo and cable's Motorola boxes (can't speak for dish or sci-atlanta boxes b/c I've never used them)


My point isn't that DVR is better than than DLB&#8230; it's just better than nothing, which is exactly what you guys are offering to those of us with HR20.

The work-around should be posted on the first page, and on the first page of the "tips and tricks" otherwise very few people will care about DLB or improving the DVR.

I had to figure it out for myself, so I'm excited to have a tool to avoid watching commercials.

I would like improved DVR functions and DLB.

This should make sense to a rational person. And I've said what I have to say.


----------



## rawilson

One thing I'm not excited about is taking up 6 hours of HD programming space on my hard drive to record 2 football games...and, of course, then missing the ends of them as they run over the program time. The workaround is a hack that we shouldn't have to do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rawilson said:


> One thing I'm not excited about is taking up 6 hours of HD programming space on my hard drive to record 2 football games...and, of course, then missing the ends of them as they run over the program time. The workaround is a hack that we shouldn't have to do.


And having DLB's is going to guarantee that isn't going to happen?


----------



## dennisj00

Earl Bonovich said:


> And having DLB's is going to guarantee that isn't going to happen?


It does on my Sony T-60 unless I've programmed something that follows the games because you're watching either buffer 'live'.

And the 'workaround' presented gets more complicated with the folder system -- more button pushes and delays to figure out which program you're really supposed to continue watching.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Earl Bonovich said:


> And having DLB's is going to guarantee that isn't going to happen?


I thought that the buffers didn't take up space that is allocated for recordings. I know that was the case with the HR10.

If you schedule recordings and you don't have sufficient space for the scheduled amount of time, the HR20 is going to delete programs to make room, is it not? That wouldn't be necessary with DLB if it were implemented the way the HR10 handles DLB.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ShiningBengal said:


> I thought that the buffers didn't take up space that is allocated for recordings. I know that was the case with the HR10.
> 
> If you schedule recordings and you don't have sufficient space for the scheduled amount of time, the HR20 is going to delete programs to make room, is it not? That wouldn't be necessary with DLB if it were implemented the way the HR10 handles DLB.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


The later segments.... "in case it runs over", is what I was referring too.


----------



## islander66

rawilson said:


> One thing I'm not excited about is taking up 6 hours of HD programming space on my hard drive to record 2 football games...and, of course, then missing the ends of them as they run over the program time. The workaround is a hack that we shouldn't have to do.


A DVR is a hack? haha... Really, I'm not down on DLB, but I enjoy recording one or two shoes and I find myself watching most of one, and forget about the second. So with DLB, I can't go back and watch it later like I can with dual DVR.

The play list will have both recordings at the top so there is no searching around. (more misinformation) With DLB there is no searching around for a recording because its gone.

If you are running out of room on your DVR, pay your 7 year old daughter $10 to erase a few episodes of Hanna Montana, so the grownups can use the DVR.


----------



## raott

islander66 said:


> A DVR is a hack? haha... Really, I'm not down on DLB, but I enjoy recording one or two shoes and I find myself watching most of one, and forget about the second. So with DLB, I can't go back and watch it later like I can with dual DVR.


What do you mean a DVR is a hack? I do not understand what you are trying to say.

With DLB, if you choose to record the show instead, so be it, one has nothing to do with the other, the addition of DLB doesn't prevent you from recording two shows if you would like. It is simply a convenience feature that many of us, either old Tivo users or cable users are use to having.

We all know about the workaround, it has been discussed ad nauseum for two years on this site (since the introduction of the R15), for most of us, it is not acceptable, and no amount of "convincing" is going to change minds.


----------



## islander66

raott said:


> What do you mean a DVR is a hack? I do not understand what you are trying to say.


At least I understand what a question mark means.

You missed the point. But I didn't miss yours, yawn.

bye


----------



## Surfguy

I personally miss the spontaneity associated with duel buffer watching. I could flip around at my heart's content to find two shows to buffer. Then, get sick of one of them and move on to another. It allowed me to cover more ground and be a smarter TV watcher. So, I'm missing that the most. I don't seem to enjoy watching TV as much or changing channels now. Pretty soon...I'm going to start turning it off and finding something else to do. What's happening to me? I'M CHANGING! ARGH! lol


----------



## Rocker07

Here is an example of what drives me crazy about the HR20....tonight I'm watching a pre-season basketball game. I notice that a show I have set to record on another channel is now recording. I figure I will go to the list and play the show that is recording and keep the "live" buffer on the channel with the basketball game. Once I finish watching the recorded show I'll switch back the the basketball game and rewind back and watch the last 5 mins or so......well, I forgot you obviously can't do that with the HR20. When I delete the recorded show and exit back to the "live" buffer there is NO buffer to rewind.


----------



## 94SupraTT

mtnagel said:


> I've said it before, but you can also use STOP, then DOWN or UP once, and then PLAY. So that's 3 keystrokes. Which is 1 more than Tivo's PAUSE, then Down Arrow.
> 
> Of course, this is after setting up both recordings, but with Tivo, you still have to tune to both channels to set up the buffering.


You are not comparing like things then. Your post should have said.

Set up both recordings - how ever many keystrokes that is I assume at least 4 keystrokes to record 2 shows.

STOP, DOWN/UP and then Play. 3 more strokes, at least.

That is a total of no less than 7 strokes, when it takes a Tivo 2 strokes (not to mention the keystrokes involved in deleting the shows) you are "buffering". Setting up the recordings is a requirement your post is marginizing the importance/requirement of setting up the recordings. Sure it is a workaround however neat nearly as efficient.


----------



## ToddinVA

islander66 said:


> Your in deep! I'm only sharing the workaround. While some people would rather not share this in hopes of increasing chances for DLB.
> 
> I think you are shooting yourself it the foot. The more people who use the workaround will want it improved.
> 
> D* will also think you are just too dumb to use the DVR, if you say there is no workaround.
> 
> I would like the work-around to be improved so that Previous keeps the same place.
> 
> Because you can already record one and surf around on the other tuner, which is exactly what you are doing with the DLB. You also don't have the limited 30 minute buffer when you want to record both.


D* is the dumb one here. Why not offer a simple feature than most dual-tuner DVRs already offer?? I'm not the dumb one since I've been using DVRs longer than almost everyone out there, over 8 years. As for the buffer, the 30 minute limit is just a dumb TiVo decision. It has nothing to do with the DLB feature.


----------



## islander66

ToddinVA said:


> D* is the dumb one here. Why not offer a simple feature than most dual-tuner DVRs already offer?? I'm not the dumb one since I've been using DVRs longer than almost everyone out there, over 8 years. As for the buffer, the 30 minute limit is just a dumb TiVo decision. It has nothing to do with the DLB feature.


I agree that they are two different functions. My only issue here is that the DVR isn't as difficult as some claim.

I hope we get the DLB function, until thin it would be best to use the DVR workaround, otherwise less and less people will want the DLB.

There is also no reason for so many people to take issue with my post instead of posing their own thoughts.

I can't add any more to this, so I'll see you all around at the rest of the forum!


----------



## Drew2k

94SupraTT said:


> You are not comparing like things then. Your post should have said.
> 
> Set up both recordings - how ever many keystrokes that is I assume at least 4 keystrokes to record 2 shows.
> 
> STOP, DOWN/UP and then Play. 3 more strokes, at least.
> 
> That is a total of no less than 7 strokes, when it takes a Tivo 2 strokes (not to mention the keystrokes involved in deleting the shows) you are "buffering". Setting up the recordings is a requirement your post is marginizing the importance/requirement of setting up the recordings. Sure it is a workaround however neat nearly as efficient.


Assuming you want to "watch" channels 2 and 4 ... I tried to list every step required to establish the buffers/recordings on two channels; to swap the buffers/recordings; and to clean-up afterwards. I'm not sure if I overlooked anything or if any of these steps can be eliminated, so please take a close look at my steps ....

*A. To establish two "buffers" with one of them paused*:

*TiVo: 6 keystrokes:*
1. 2
2. ENTER
3. PAUSE
4. DOWN <-- background buffer is now paused on channel 2
5. 4
6. ENTER

*HR20: 11 keystrokes (or 7?)*
1. 2
2. ENTER
3. REC <-- program from channel 2 is added to top of playlist
4. 4
5. ENTER <-- tuner changes, with channel 2 now on "background" tuner, not paused
6. REC <-- program from channel 4 is now at top of playlist

7. PAUSE <-- technically, you can press PAUSE here - it's "PAUSED" - but this pause isn't saved if you swap tuners, so instead ...

7. LIST 
8. PLAY <-- program from channel 4 is now played from beginning
9. STOP <-- automatically pauses channel 4 and returns to playlist
10. DOWN <-- selection changes to program from channel 2
11. PLAY <-- program from channel 2 now plays from beginning

*B. Now that the "buffers" are established, here's what it takes to "swap" buffers, saving the pause point and resuming play on the other "buffer":
*
*TiVo: 3 keystrokes*
1. PAUSE
2. DOWN
3. PLAY

*HR20: 3 keystrokes*
1. STOP
2. DOWN or UP <-- according to location in playlist
3. PLAY

*C. Here's what it takes to "cleanup" after "buffering":*

*TiVo: 0 keystrokes
*-- Any channel change or scheduled recordings on both tuners will clear the buffer

*HR20: 5 keystrokes*
1. LIST
2. DASH
3. DASH <-- the first "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted; the next "recording buffer" moves up in the list" 
4. DASH
5. DASH <-- the second "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted

*Summary:* TiVo saves 5 keystrokes when establishing the buffers and 5 keystrokes when cleaning up. It's a wash when toggling buffers/recordings.

Did I miss anything?


----------



## islander66

Hi Drew, nice comparison. I don't use the "enter" for the HR20, so that would save two steps? Both of mine have always been at the top of the play list.

1. 2 (chose channel)

2. record (starts recording in playlist)

3. 4 (choose second channel.)

4. record (records second channel.)

5. List (you don't have to push pause)

6. Select one of the two programs

7. resume (which is the first option)

It's like changing channels in a very short list. 

It also appears that you left out a pause and a down in the DLB.

I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. I like the DVR functions, because it is easy and will save the program if I quit watching one. I can go back and watch it later.


----------



## islander66

Does the DLB have a dedicated list of the buffered programs? 

Because with the DVR all you are doing is pressing record once while you are at that channel or the guide, then going to the playlist is easier than changing the channel through the guide.

I voted that DLB would be fine, but I really don't need it.

For those that need it, no one is "forcing" you to use a HR 20.

Making suggestions for a product you choose to use, is quite different than being inhospitable to other who have also chosen the same product to enjoy and share accurate information.


----------



## raott

Drew2k said:


> Did I miss anything?


Yes, you missed the additional steps required if:
- your buffered game runs long 
- you are trying to buffer a 30 minute show like ESPNNews or local news and the half hour mark is hit
- you are using the R15 and run against the 100 limit (yeah I know this is the HR20 forum but DLB is the one subject that if you post anywhere else other than the DLB sticky thread some people complain)
- and if you decide one game isn't worth buffering and decide on another

Those I just listed are not unusual events, they happen all the time while watching Sunday ticket or college football and trying to keep up with scores or local news - which is where I often found myself using DLBs.


----------



## rawilson

Earl Bonovich said:


> And having DLB's is going to guarantee that isn't going to happen?


No, it isn't going to happen...because both tuners continue to maintain a buffer. On my HR20, as soon as I change the channel after the recording time has expired, I lose the current buffer AND have already lost the other one. So, yes, having DLB will guarantee that assuming I don't have another recording scheduled and I don't wait more than half an hour to change tuners.


----------



## JohnLips

Give me DLB's and I'll keep the hr20 over a tivo unit. 

John


----------



## Que

Rocker07 said:


> Here is an example of what drives me crazy about the HR20....tonight I'm watching a pre-season basketball game. I notice that a show I have set to record on another channel is now recording. I figure I will go to the list and play the show that is recording and keep the "live" buffer on the channel with the basketball game. Once I finish watching the recorded show I'll switch back the the basketball game and rewind back and watch the last 5 mins or so......well, I forgot you obviously can't do that with the HR20. When I delete the recorded show and exit back to the "live" buffer there is NO buffer to rewind.


Yeah that would drive me crazy too. I guess you just have to record everything but, then your pause point doesn't work so you would have to FW.


----------



## swconsult

Earl Bonovich said:


> The later segments.... "in case it runs over", is what I was referring too.


Earl, he answered you. With DLB the buffer remains regardless of the show. As has been said many times here, the DLB is not program specific like the cumbersome workaround. The only thing that would intrupt that is a scheduled recording as he said.

Again I'll ask, what is D*s response when you've shown them all this. Stop covering for them.


----------



## swconsult

Drew2k said:


> Assuming you want to "watch" channels 2 and 4 ... I tried to list every step required to establish the buffers/recordings on two channels; to swap the buffers/recordings; and to clean-up afterwards. I'm not sure if I overlooked anything or if any of these steps can be eliminated, so please take a close look at my steps ....
> 
> *A. To establish two "buffers" with one of them paused*:
> 
> *TiVo: 6 keystrokes:*
> 1. 2
> 2. ENTER
> 3. PAUSE
> 4. DOWN <-- background buffer is now paused on channel 2
> 5. 4
> 6. ENTER
> 
> *HR20: 11 keystrokes (or 7?)*
> 1. 2
> 2. ENTER
> 3. REC <-- program from channel 2 is added to top of playlist
> 4. 4
> 5. ENTER <-- tuner changes, with channel 2 now on "background" tuner, not paused
> 6. REC <-- program from channel 4 is now at top of playlist
> 
> 7. PAUSE <-- technically, you can press PAUSE here - it's "PAUSED" - but this pause isn't saved if you swap tuners, so instead ...
> 
> 7. LIST
> 8. PLAY <-- program from channel 4 is now played from beginning
> 9. STOP <-- automatically pauses channel 4 and returns to playlist
> 10. DOWN <-- selection changes to program from channel 2
> 11. PLAY <-- program from channel 2 now plays from beginning
> 
> *B. Now that the "buffers" are established, here's what it takes to "swap" buffers, saving the pause point and resuming play on the other "buffer":
> *
> *TiVo: 3 keystrokes*
> 1. PAUSE
> 2. DOWN
> 3. PLAY
> 
> *HR20: 3 keystrokes*
> 1. STOP
> 2. DOWN or UP <-- according to location in playlist
> 3. PLAY
> 
> *C. Here's what it takes to "cleanup" after "buffering":*
> 
> *TiVo: 0 keystrokes
> *-- Any channel change or scheduled recordings on both tuners will clear the buffer
> 
> *HR20: 5 keystrokes*
> 1. LIST
> 2. DASH
> 3. DASH <-- the first "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted; the next "recording buffer" moves up in the list"
> 4. DASH
> 5. DASH <-- the second "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted
> 
> *Summary:* TiVo saves 5 keystrokes when establishing the buffers and 5 keystrokes when cleaning up. It's a wash when toggling buffers/recordings.
> 
> Did I miss anything?


There's little need to save the pause points.

TIVO
Hit "Live TV" and your on the other tuner. FF or RW to your hearts content. Heck even watch a good commercial if you want.
And no clean-up at the end of the day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## swconsult

islander66 said:


> Does the DLB have a dedicated list of the buffered programs?
> 
> Because with the DVR all you are doing is pressing record once while you are at that channel or the guide, then going to the playlist is easier than changing the channel through the guide.
> 
> I voted that DLB would be fine, but I really don't need it.
> 
> For those that need it, no one is "forcing" you to use a HR 20.
> 
> Making suggestions for a product you choose to use, is quite different than being inhospitable to other who have also chosen the same product to enjoy and share accurate information.


To get acceptable HD content (D*, no one else) we are forced to use the HR20 if we want a DVR


----------



## Drew2k

swconsult said:


> There's little need to save the pause points.
> 
> TIVO
> Hit "Live TV" and your on the other tuner. FF or RW to your hearts content. Heck even watch a good commercial if you want.
> And no clean-up at the end of the day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Heck, if you want to take pause points out, then it's super simple on the HR20 to do the same thing: REC, change channel, REC. Then just play from the LIST hit PREV to swap between the two shows being recorded and ou can REW and FF to your hearts content.

However, saving pause points is one of the primary reasons that people want DLB: Pause a game on one tuner, swap to the other and watch another game, pause and swap to the other and resume.


----------



## O2BRich

"DOD" is cool!  

Did not think I would use it but find it interesting

"Remote Booking" is cool.  

However I will only use these features a couple time a month.

I would use DLB every time I watched TV


----------



## MartyS

I was on the fence about DLBs, but last week I bought a TiVo HD unit (and dropped my Comcast Cable Digital Tier) and now that I have the TiVo, with DLB, I can tell you that DLB is something that should be moved to the top of the wish list.

It's nice to be able to switch back and forth and not have to tie up 2 recorders to have pseudo DLB.


----------



## Steve

MartyS said:


> I was on the fence about DLBs, but last week I bought a TiVo HD unit (and dropped my Comcast Cable Digital Tier) and now that I have the TiVo, with DLB, I can tell you that DLB is something that should be moved to the top of the wish list.


"*Dual LIVE Buffers*" is currently ranked 4th overall, out of 91 requests on the Wish List. The workaround, "*Remember if the LIVE BUFFER is PAUSED, when using PREV to toggle between LIVE TV and recording PLAYBACK*" is currerntly ranked 10th.

If you haven't yet voted for either of these requests, you may do so here. /steve


----------



## wavemaster

There once was a very old duffer,
he suffered from having no dual line buffer.

His TIVO can do it, with no effort at all,
but with DirectTV, his HD will stall.

He sang to the heavens (D10 to be sure),
please oh please send us a cure.

This issue has my friends laughing during the football game,
being a no DLB weenie is really quite lame. 

I want DTV to be at the top,
and have all of this ridicule finally stop.

Give us Dual Line Buffers, we all know you can,
don't let Hollywood dictate your plan.

I will end this rant now cuz it's making me twitch
DTV PLEASE don't become the man's #&@%#!


----------



## Rocker07

Drew2k said:


> Heck, if you want to take pause points out, then it's super simple on the HR20 to do the same thing: REC, change channel, REC. Then just play from the LIST hit PREV to swap between the two shows being recorded and ou can REW and FF to your hearts content.
> 
> However, saving pause points is one of the primary reasons that people want DLB: Pause a game on one tuner, swap to the other and watch another game, pause and swap to the other and resume.


Drew here is what I want to do....watch a football game on one channel, pause it during a commercial and switch to the other tuner and change channels till my heart is content then switch back to the paused football game and start watching it again. What is the work around for that?


----------



## Steve

Rocker07 said:


> Drew here is what I want to do....watch a football game on one channel, pause it during a commercial and switch to the other tuner and change channels till my heart is content then switch back to the paused football game and start watching it again. What is the work around for that?


Press RECORD on the tuner with the game, then PLAY from the PLAYLIST. From then on, whenever you use EXIT to go to LIVE TV, the game will be paused at the point you EXITED. If you don't change channels on the LIVE tuner, PREV will put you back to the point in the RECORDING you left off.

If you do change channels while in the LIVE buffer, then you have to go back to LIST, at which point you can select and RESUME the game recording from the last point you left it. Not elegant, but do-able with the current HR20 software. /steve


----------



## Drew2k

Yup - what Steve said.

I need to revive the "Forget DLB" thread and try to get more attention to saving the Pause Point. I don't think we can ever get DLB if the pause point can't even be saved while watching a recording. If you agree, make sure you visit the thread below and add your comments:

Forget DLB ... Who wants SLBPP while playing back a recording?


----------



## smithrh

swconsult said:


> Again I'll ask, what is D*s response when you've shown them all this. Stop covering for them.


+1


----------



## Rocker07

Steve said:


> Press RECORD on the tuner with the game, then PLAY from the PLAYLIST. From then on, whenever you use EXIT to go to LIVE TV, the game will be paused at the point you EXITED. If you don't change channels on the LIVE tuner, PREV will put you back to the point in the RECORDING you left off.
> 
> If you do change channels while in the LIVE buffer, then you have to go back to LIST, at which point you can select and RESUME the game recording from the last point you left it. Not elegant, but do-able with the current HR20 software. /steve


So what your saying is that there is no "simple" work around just one long pain in the @$$ work-around. D*, just give us the [email protected] DLB so we can just shut up and go away.


----------



## Steve

Rocker07 said:


> So what your saying is that there is no "simple" work around just one long pain in the @$$ work-around. D*, just give us the [email protected] DLB so we can just shut up and go away.


I didn't say it was pretty.  But since in the example you gave you were not concerned with preserving the PAUSE point in the LIVE BUFFER, the workaround is there now, and it's really not _that _onerous. If you use a universal remote that supports macros, you could program those steps pretty easily. /steve


----------



## dennisj00

I continue to go back to my Sony T-60 TIVO for DLB use to easily switch between two programs with live, real 30 minute buffers. Unfortunately, it's not HD.

No workaround offers this functionality and ease of use. In fact, it's a kludge instead of a workaround.

I've yet to see a valid explanation why it's not available on the HR20. Either give us a reason or DLB!!!!


----------



## puffnstuff

This is getting to be crazy after a year and still no answer as to why . I really hope it becomes apparent soon . I really hope the reason has nothing to do with DOD because that would piss me off enough to leave !! (OK I won't leave but goodbye premiums , sunday ticket , extra innings , nascar , college ball of both kinds , nhl , and stupid PPV fights ) I already can get most of that on my cable box which does have DLB !


----------



## ShiningBengal

dennisj00 said:


> I've yet to see a valid explanation why it's not available on the HR20. Either give us a reason or DLB!!!!


I would like DLB as well, but I knew the HR20 didn't have it when I purchased it. Hope it will someday.

That said, why do you think DirecTV owes you or anyone else an explanation as to why it isn't there? They never said it was, and never even hinted it would be there in the future.

If you buy a car that doesn't have a 6-speed transmission, do you expect its manufacturer to tell you why it doesn't?


----------



## Lord Vader

ShiningBengal said:


> If you buy a car that doesn't have a 6-speed transmission, do you expect its manufacturer to tell you why it doesn't?


Actually, yes, if everyone else does!


----------



## ShiningBengal

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, yes, if everyone else does!


Why wouldn't you buy the car that had what you wanted to begin with? Not to pick a bone with you, but I don't think DirecTV "owes" you an explanation as to why they built the product they did.


----------



## puffnstuff

ShiningBengal said:


> Why wouldn't you buy the car that had what you wanted to begin with? Not to pick a bone with you, but I don't think DirecTV "owes" you an explanation as to why they built the product they did.


Because when I got mine I was told that they were working on DLB and nothing changed for 4 months ( since I called every month to confirm ) then I see on here that they are not working on them at all and probably won't . That is why I have been getting a 5 dollar a month credit for the last year . So yes , I feel they do owe me an explanation !! Also I was told there was a reason , well it is about time I know , so that when my contract is up I will be able to weigh the pro's and con's of keeping D* since DLB are very important to me and there are more options in my area .


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## ShiningBengal

puffnstuff said:


> Because when I got mine I was told that they were working on DLB and nothing changed for 4 months ( since I called every month to confirm ) then I see on here that they are not working on them at all and probably won't . That is why I have been getting a 5 dollar a month credit for the last year . So yes , I feel they do owe me an explanation !! Also I was told there was a reason , well it is about time I know , so that when my contract is up I will be able to weigh the pro's and con's of keeping D* since DLB are very important to me and there are more options in my area .


Have you ever heard the term, "vaporware?" It is IT jargon for software that is yet to be delivered. That is what DLB for the HR20 was, if indeed it was ever promised by someone in a position to deliver it. PLEASE don't tell me it was a CSR. CSR's as a rule know nothing of what exists, let alone what may exist in the future. Anyone with any IT experience knows that vaporware is seldom delivered.

If you are getting $5/month for someone's foolish promise, then I'd shut up about it. In no time, whatever you paid for your HR20, if anything, will be reimbursed.

I challenge you to direct me to something official and _verifiable _from DirecTV that suggested they ever would implement DLB on the HR20.

If you bought your HR20 based in part on a promise that something not part of the product would be part of the product "some day," or because "we are working on it" then shame on you. Why didn't you wait until it was actually available before you bought?


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## puffnstuff

ShiningBengal said:


> Have you ever heard the term, "vaporware?" It is IT jargon for software that is yet to be delivered. That is what DLB for the HR20 was, if indeed it was ever promised by someone in a position to deliver it. PLEASE don't tell me it was a CSR. CSR's as a rule know nothing of what exists, let alone what may exist in the future. Anyone with any IT experience knows that vaporware is seldom delivered.
> 
> If you are getting $5/month for someone's foolish promise, then I'd shut up about it. In no time, whatever you paid for your HR20, if anything, will be reimbursed.
> 
> I challenge you to direct me to something official and _verifiable _from DirecTV that suggested they ever would implement DLB on the HR20.
> 
> If you bought your HR20 based in part on a promise that something not part of the product would be part of the product "some day," or because "we are working on it" then shame on you. Why didn't you wait until it was actually available before you bought?


Well since I got mine days before Best Buy had it and I didn't know about this site until days after that and after being told by numerous CSR's and others that DLB should be there since nobody had seen one yet , yes I bought it since I wanted my LIL's . As soon as I found out I tried to give it back but was given the run around about 2 year blah lah blah and told on here that they were working on it I kept it . As or shame on me shame on D* CSR for being a bunch of un informed asses and lying to there customers and as for the 5 dollars they can keep it for all I care 5 bucks in my neighborhood won't even get you something to eat at McDonalds . Also paying for my HR20's isn't a problem I always expect to pay for things not get them for free so when I do pay and I am told something I don't expect measly hush money I want it to work !!! As for offical word from D* it is in my account notes and I make sure about that every once in a while . The dates on that are Sept. 25th of last year so at that time how was I supposed to know that D* would be giving me a box to beta test for the next year and that the lies were vaporware . Also look at post 205 and 206 in this thread on page 9 . That was the first time I found out since I was in Disney World while it was installed . That was the first call I made when I got home .


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## ShiningBengal

puffnstuff said:


> Well since I got mine days before Best Buy had it and I didn't know about this site until 3 days after that and after being told by numerous CSR's and others that DLB should be there since nobody had seen one yet , yes I bought it since I wanted my LIL's . As soon as I found out I tried to give it back but was given the run around about 2 year blah lah blah and told on here that they were working on it I kept it . As or shame on me shame on D* CSR for being a bunch of un informed asses and lying to there customers and as for the 5 dollars they can keep it for all I care 5 bucks in my neighborhood won't even get you something to eat at McDonalds . Also paying for my HR20's isn't a problem I always expect to pay for things not get them for free so when I do pay and I am told something I don't expect measly hush money I want it to work !!! As for offical word from D* it is in my account notes and I make sure about that every once in a while . The dates on that are Sept. 9th of last year so at that time how was I supposed to know that D* would be giving me a box to beta test for the next year and that the lies were vaporware .


Ah, the joys of being on the bleeding edge. Early adopters are a brave lot. By the way, if someone put something in your account notes, that someone was a CSR. So you were not given any official or authoritative information that DLB would become available.

CSR's are hardly "official." How could they be? You call can three times for information and you will get three different answers. I thought everyone knew that.

I waited until it was obvious that the only way I could receive HD, in the long run, was to buy the HR20. I had done a lot of research on it, here and elsewhere, and did not believe it was anywhere near equal to the HR10--and not only because of the lack of DLB. But I bit the bullet and said goodbye to my beloved TiVo's.

I miss DLB, but I never expected the HR20 to be something it obviously is not. On the whole, it is still somewhat glitchy, but it gets the job done. Some things are actually well thought out.

In purchasing my two HR20's, I made a decision to keep DirecTV, since my only alternatives where I live are Comcast (expensive and bad customer service) and Dish (bad customer service). I am basically happy with DirecTV, but if someone else comes along with a better service for my needs, I will move on.

But I won't buy anything based on promises of what is to be. If it isn't there when I buy, I will assume it is unlikely to be there later.


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## puffnstuff

ShiningBengal said:


> Ah, the joys of being on the bleeding edge. Early adopters are a brave lot. By the way, if someone put something in your account notes, that someone was a CSR. So you were not given any official or authoritative information that DLB would become available.
> 
> CSR's are hardly "official." How could they be? You call can three times for information and you will get three different answers. I thought everyone knew that.
> 
> I waited until it was obvious that the only way I could receive HD, in the long run, was to buy the HR20. I had done a lot of research on it, here and elsewhere, and did not believe it was anywhere near equal to the HR10--and not only because of the lack of DLB.
> 
> I miss DLB, but I never expected the HR20 to be something it obviously is not. On the whole, it is still somewhat glitchy, but it gets the job done. Some things are actually well thought out.
> 
> In purchasing my two HR20's, I made a decision to keep DirecTV, since my only alternatives where I live are Comcast (expensive and bad customer service) and Dish (bad customer service). I am basically happy with DirecTV, but if someone else comes along with a better service for my needs, I will move on.
> 
> But I won't buy anything based on promises of what is to be. If it isn't there when I buy, I will assume it is unlikely to be there later.


So true so true . I also bought my 10 -250 for 900 dollars and was tricked the same way with LILs . But back to the question at hand , I was told by Earl himself in post 206 , they were working on it , so I stayed and now that the answer has changed and I am being told there is a reason to be made apparent in the future , as to why DLB is not in the box . Well I want that answer or at least when to expect one .


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## Rocker07

Steve said:


> I didn't say it was pretty.  But since in the example you gave you were not concerned with preserving the PAUSE point in the LIVE BUFFER, the workaround is there now, and it's really not _that _onerous. If you use a universal remote that supports macros, you could program those steps pretty easily. /steve


 Just for the record, I'm not sure where you get that I wasn't concerned with preserving the PAUSE point in the live buffer. I thought I specifically said I wanted to "pause" the football game and switch to the other buffer and channel surf on it then return to the "paused" game and resume watching it.


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## Que

puffnstuff said:


> This is getting to be crazy after a year and still no answer as to why . I really hope it becomes apparent soon . I really hope the reason has nothing to do with DOD because that would piss me off enough to leave !! (OK I won't leave but goodbye premiums , sunday ticket , extra innings , nascar , college ball of both kinds , nhl , and stupid PPV fights ) I already can get most of that on my cable box which does have DLB !


Damn puffnstuff you have one heck of a monthly bill there.


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## puffnstuff

Que said:


> Damn puffnstuff you have one heck of a monthly bill there.


Plus add all the stupid crap I have to have from comcrap just to get Howard . But at least I have DLB somewhere .


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## LOBO2999

You know half of the shows I record now , would have never been recorded if it were not for DLB.


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## Lord Vader

Steve said:


> Press RECORD on the tuner with the game, then PLAY from the PLAYLIST. From then on, whenever you use EXIT to go to LIVE TV, the game will be paused at the point you EXITED. If you don't change channels on the LIVE tuner, PREV will put you back to the point in the RECORDING you left off.
> 
> If you do change channels while in the LIVE buffer, then you have to go back to LIST, at which point you can select and RESUME the game recording from the last point you left it. Not elegant, but do-able with the current HR20 software. /steve


This is only preserving the "pause" point in one game. Case in point: I'm trying to swap between both the Michigan-Illinios game and the Indians-Red Sox game. When I go to list-play-etc. and back and forth, the Red Sox game resumes from where I left, but the Michigan-Illinois game is real time live.


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## msmith198025

DLB isnt in the works on the HR-20. Earl has spoken 
It would be nice, but not a deal breaker for me


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## shootandedit

ShiningBengal said:


> Then again, my HR20 only deleted everything once. The problem is, I won't know when the next time will be. I don't know about you, but I record things I want to watch. My play list is the only thing I watch from.
> 
> So maybe you will be lucky and your shows will never be wiped clean like mine. But aren't you happy in the knowledge that this CAN happen?
> 
> I've had TiVo's for close to 8 years. NEVER did any of them ever delete anything I didn't tell them to. NEVER did any of them fail to record what I asked them to.
> 
> Is this too much to ask of a "state of the art" DVR?


Reading the lack of DLB and that the R20 "oops" deleted everything recorded scares the heck out of me. I bought my HR-10 back in '06 and I still have the first show I ever recorded on it. A state of the art DVR that "oops" wiped out all my recordings and fails to record my season passes is completely unacceptable. I might as well go back to using my VCR or DVD recorder and try to remember to set the timer. I'm hesitant to upgrade to the HR-20 or the HR21. Anyone feel they are closer to being fail safe yet? Minus the lack of DLB? I wish they had DLB....


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## Que

shootandedit said:


> Reading the lack of DLB and that the R20 "oops" deleted everything recorded scares the heck out of me. I bought my HR-10 back in '06 and I still have the first show I ever recorded on it. A state of the art DVR that "oops" wiped out all my recordings and fails to record my season passes is completely unacceptable. I might as well go back to using my VCR or DVD recorder and try to remember to set the timer. I'm hesitant to upgrade to the HR-20 or the HR21. Anyone feel they are closer to being fail safe yet? Minus the lack of DLB? I wish they had DLB....


To me D* is pushing a lot of people out or just forcing a DVR with option you really don't need or want. Plus leaves out the option(s) that do you want and it is on all other DVRs out there but, not D*. I really like D* customer service and don't want to go to Charter............ but this is just getting crazy.


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## Mike Bertelson

shootandedit said:


> Reading the lack of DLB and that the R20 "oops" deleted everything recorded scares the heck out of me. I bought my HR-10 back in '06 and I still have the first show I ever recorded on it. A state of the art DVR that "oops" wiped out all my recordings and fails to record my season passes is completely unacceptable. I might as well go back to using my VCR or DVD recorder and try to remember to set the timer. I'm hesitant to upgrade to the HR-20 or the HR21. Anyone feel they are closer to being fail safe yet? Minus the lack of DLB? I wish they had DLB....


I've been posting about the lack of *DLB* being a problem for a while now(I wrote one of the two letters in post [post=629658]#1[/post] in this thread). 

Although I have been critical of this and other things such as *SLB*, I can honestly say I like my HR20.

I have _never_ lost/missed any recordings.

I only have four issues with it....SLB, DLB, the 50 SL Limit, and editing SLs when no episodes are scheduled. If D* fixes these I'll be a happy camper. 

I work with a guy who has a HR20. He had some recording problems early on but hasn't in months. This doesn't mean that others don't have this problem...they do and these problems exist. The question you should be asking is "is this the norm". IMHO, no.

My point is that the HR20 isn't all gloom-n-doom. It performs well in all areas. Also, in the latest CE *SLB* seems to be fixed(at least I haven't seen it yet).

I just want readers to know there are plenty of people who don't have major problems with their HR20s.

Mike


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## LOBO2999

I 4 one am not fond of this recieiver and I feel the only thing it can do that my DVD recorder or VCR cant is record in HD . I dont care about VOD or hooking it up to the internet , ( not knocking ones who do ) but without DBL I will not add another HR20/21 ever to my account .


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## furjaw

Those who had dual live buffers find that they cannot do without it.
Those who never had DLB say that they do not need it.

It is the same with DVRs.

Those who have them cannot live without them.
Those who never had a DVR say that they don't need them.


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## Drew2k

Drew2k said:


> Yup - what Steve said.
> 
> I need to revive the "Forget DLB" thread and try to get more attention to saving the Pause Point. I don't think we can ever get DLB if the pause point can't even be saved while watching a recording. If you agree, make sure you visit the thread below and add your comments:
> 
> Forget DLB ... Who wants SLBPP while playing back a recording?


Just a reminder - See above ... if the pause point can't even be saved on a single buffer, we're never going to see dual live buffers ...


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## sjso395

LOBO2999 said:


> I 4 one am not fond of this recieiver and I feel the only thing it can do that my DVD recorder or VCR cant is record in HD . I dont care about VOD or hooking it up to the internet , ( not knocking ones who do ) but without DBL I will not add another HR20/21 ever to my account .


+1

I have said previously on here. When you have had over 2200 people vote for DLb and thats just a portion of D* customers that come on here, I cant beleive D* chooses to ignore this.


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## boltjames

sjso395 said:


> +1
> 
> I have said previously on here. When you have had over 2200 people vote for DLb and thats just a portion of D* customers that come on here, I cant beleive D* chooses to ignore this.


2200 people on a web forum is a completely irrelevant number.

Complainers are very vocal with their displeasure online. Those who are happy have no reason to post because they take their happiness for granted. When a product does as it's supposed to do, no need to come back and heap praise upon it. But when you're disappointed, the web is a nice soap box to stand atop.

There will be no DLB because the HR20 sells like hotcakes without it. Frankly, I'm ashamed that people like you represent people like me to D*. I am thrilled with all the HD programming and all the wonderful improvements that the HR20 is to the HR10. That's the message that I'd like D* to hear, not this whining about a feature that nobody cares about.

BJ


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## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> ...not this whining about a feature that *nobody* cares about.
> 
> BJ


This takes today's prize for the most generalistic, incorrect, and asinine comment of the day.


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## lman

Lord Vader said:


> This takes today's prize for the most generalistic, incorrect, and asinine comment of the day.


He's famous for that.


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## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> There will be no DLB because the HR20 sells like hotcakes without it.


And what other freakin choice do we have from D* now??


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## tigerpaw78

furjaw said:


> Those who had dual live buffers find that they cannot do without it.
> Those who never had DLB say that they do not need it.
> 
> It is the same with DVRs.
> 
> Those who have them cannot live without them.
> Those who never had a DVR say that they don't need them.


I got my HR20 last October, and I haven't posted in a while. I do miss the DLB of my old SD Tivo, but for those afraid to jump into the HR20, I wouldn't wait. I got it last year in order to get HD locals through the Sat. Yes it was problematic in the first few months with not being able to rely on a) recording what you told it to, and b) playing what it recorded. But it has been quite reliable for many months (i.e., nothing not recorded and nothing unplayable). I don't know what software upgrade got it to a stable situation, but I think it's a great machine that would be even better if it had DLB!


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## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> This takes today's prize for the most generalistic, incorrect, and asinine comment of the day.


If DLB is so important, why doesn't the HR20 have it?

BJ


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## Lord Vader

That's the $64,000 question. I'd suggest reading through this thread to find out why: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118


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## ub1934

Lord Vader said:


> That's the $64,000 question. I'd suggest reading through this thread to find out why: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118


Now if they would turn the DLB and fix the late start recordings it would be 100%


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## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> That's the $64,000 question. I'd suggest reading through this thread to find out why


Answer the question Lord Vader. Why doesn't the HR20 have DLB if its soooooo important and everyone wants it? I'm not looking for other posters theories. I want yours.

BJ


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## ATARI

boltjames said:


> 2200 people on a web forum is a completely irrelevant number.


Hmmm...I don;t _feel_ irrelevant.

At least not today.


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## christo76

boltjames said:


> Answer the question Lord Vader. Why doesn't the HR20 have DLB if its soooooo important and everyone wants it? I'm not looking for other posters theories. I want yours.
> 
> BJ


I'll give you mine...

Coding conflict. We know from Earl they were looking into how to implement it (page 9 post 206), then suddenly it died, and now only D* and Earl know the reason.

My thought is that in looking into it, they discovered that some method they use for handling the 2 tuners for different operations (i.e. how it designates which tuner takes priority when a second recording activates or background operation) requires a primary and secondary tuner, that are not treated equal. In order to implement DLB, perhaps, vast portions of numerous sections would have to be rewritten in order to re-delegate tuner priorities. Basically right now, there is a primary tuner, and a back-up, and in the code it specifies certain tasks to a certain tuner, based on what is happening. DLB, tivo-style, seems to consider both tuners identical and rather then specifying 'Tuner 1' or 'Tuner 2', it merely looks for 'tuner'.

Thats just my theory and has very little factual basis, but to me it makes sense. Changing and adding a small bit of code for a feature/bug-fix is one thing, but once they realized how deep they would have to go, they scrapped the idea of adding DLB.

Poor, very poor planning on D*'s part, and I bet now that they have all this base code, they don't really care to change it for future DVRs. I do think, that D* just screwed up in initial design and didn't think of or plan for DLB. Our uproar brought it more to their attention, but by the time we had it in our hands, it was already too late.


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## LOBO2999

I beleave this part (Poor, very poor planning on D*'s part)


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## Lord Vader

christo76 said:


> I'll give you mine...
> 
> Coding conflict. We know from Earl they were looking into how to implement it (page 9 post 206), then suddenly it died, and now only D* and Earl know the reason.
> 
> My thought is that in looking into it, they discovered that some method they use for handling the 2 tuners for different operations (i.e. how it designates which tuner takes priority when a second recording activates or background operation) requires a primary and secondary tuner, that are not treated equal. In order to implement DLB, perhaps, vast portions of numerous sections would have to be rewritten in order to re-delegate tuner priorities. Basically right now, there is a primary tuner, and a back-up, and in the code it specifies certain tasks to a certain tuner, based on what is happening. DLB, tivo-style, seems to consider both tuners identical and rather then specifying 'Tuner 1' or 'Tuner 2', it merely looks for 'tuner'.
> 
> Thats just my theory and has very little factual basis, but to me it makes sense. Changing and adding a small bit of code for a feature/bug-fix is one thing, but once they realized how deep they would have to go, they scrapped the idea of adding DLB.
> 
> Poor, very poor planning on D*'s part, and I bet now that they have all this base code, they don't really care to change it for future DVRs. I do think, that D* just screwed up in initial design and didn't think of or plan for DLB. Our uproar brought it more to their attention, but by the time we had it in our hands, it was already too late.


Actually, Earl has stated that they do not implement DLB not because of coding or technical reasons--they could "switch" it on in one software update, I believe; rather, they simply *choose *now not to implement it.


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## swconsult

ShiningBengal said:


> Why wouldn't you buy the car that had what you wanted to begin with? Not to pick a bone with you, but I don't think DirecTV "owes" you an explanation as to why they built the product they did.


Key here is that they have told Earl that it can be activated, they just choose not to. They truly owe an explanation for thier silence on this obviously hot issue.


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## Rocker07

ub1934 said:


> Now if they would turn the DLB and fix the late start recordings it would be 100%


OH MAN! don't get me started on the late start recordings ......just turn the damn DLB's on please!


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## Que

A must have! 2297 76.93%
Don't really care about it. 151 5.06%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 538 18.02%
Voters: 2986. 

Replies 1,828
Views 99,267


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## Que

Que said:


> Made a poll to find out how many people sent in snail mail letters to D* http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103897


So anyone else??


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## kwsmithphoto

I'm new here and don't have the time to read all 74 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I've repeated something said before, probably many times.

At my old house I had a 2 SD TV's a 2 RCA DVR80's with the Tivo interface. I grew to love the dual live buffers and used it all the time. While I still have the RCA's on my 2 SD TV's in the den and bedroom, I do most of my "serious" TV time in the living room, where the HD monitor and HR20-700 live.

After 3 years of using Tivo and 3 weeks of DTV's DVR design, all I can really say is that Tivo nailed it years ago, while using DTV's DVR is like going back to the stone age. I'm very technical and after hours and hours of working the HR20 and reading it's manual, I finally have a pretty good grip on it. I still dislike it immensely, but at least I can make it do what I want if I press enough buttons enough times.

In stark contrast, I never even looked at the Tivo's manual, the UI is an order of magnitude more intuitive. I will say that the HR20 interface is a little better overall than the Motorola DVR's, which most of my neighbors are using with Time Warner, but not by much, IMO. Barely improving on that is a very pretty low standard to reach for.

Point being, dual live buffers is far from the only thing lacking in the DTV's DVR interface. I don't have the energy to detail why I think the Tivo interface is so much better, all I can say is that it just is. I use advanced AV technology every day in my career(s) as a commercial photographer and recording engineer but after 3 weeks of using the HR20 it's clear that the interface just plain sucks. My technophobic fiancee figured out the Tivo in 5 minutes, but after 3 weeks with the HR20 she's still baffled by it, and often winds up in one of the other rooms to watch TV, recorded or otherwise.

To put it succinctly, the DTV HDR design is a huge steaming pile of crap that is a continual source of frustration for me, and confuses my fiancee to a degree that literally affects our relationship. It's her HD monitor and she wants to put one of the Tivo boxes on it, but I, of course, want to keep it for it's HD/MPEG4 capabilities, and am willing to put up with it purely for that. I don't want to argue with my bride-to-be just because your company decided to go it's own way.

So, the only thing I can add to this thread is to beg DTV to stop trying to re-invent the wheel and make nice with Tivo again. I don't know the politics or financials behind DTV's move to make their own DVR (if somebody knows let me know), all I do know is that the result doesn't work well. PLEASE make nice with Tivo again. The integration of tuner and interface was an absolute a joy to use, vastly superior to anything cable, and better than cable+standalone Tivo boxes.

The difference is so great that I'm paying good money to fix a broken DVR80 instead of taking your offer to GIVE me one of your SD DVR's to replace it.

One more time if anyone from DTV is watching this thread:

Kill your DVR program and make nice with Tivo again. They are WAY ahead of you and improving faster (Series 3) than you can catch up, so stop trying. An HD DTV box with Tivo Series 3 features and interface would be absolutely brilliant, and much loved by almost all of your most lucrative customers. Restoring your full relationship is in your best interests, and mine.

As we all know, "Tivo" has become a verb in the American cultural lexicon. Most people don't "DVR" their shows, they "Tivo" them, even if they don't have an actual Tivo! Limiting/severing your relationship with Tivo the company is bad for your business, and it's bad for long time customers like me (on and off for 11 years, I was one of your first million subscribers).

So please, PLEASE scrap your own DVR program and work things out with the best, most well known, and easiest understood DVR of all time - Tivo!!

Kevin

PS: Dual live buffers would only make me 10% happier with my HR20. Having a consistent and much loved Tivo interface throughout my household, with full HD capabilities where needed (probably everywhere in the next year), would retain me as a customer indefinitely. Currently though, I'm researching other alternatives.


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## cw18306

I had to make a Tech call 2 days ago. I asked about the dual buffers and was told that they are working on activating it. They didn't give me a time line though.


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## Lord Vader

Don't hold your breath.


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## tuff bob

Any chance theres a secret code - like there is in the cutting edge releases - to enable enhanced functionality

IWANTMYDLB ?


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## rbrome

Eh... I watch so little live TV that I don't really care. Who are you people that watch so much live TV? Isn't the whole point of a DVR that you can watch shows on YOUR schedule?

I would MUCH rather have MRV. I'd give up On Demand, Remote Booking, AND DLB (if I had it) for multi-room viewing in a heartbeat.


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## ShiningBengal

cw18306 said:


> I had to make a Tech call 2 days ago. I asked about the dual buffers and was told that they are working on activating it. They didn't give me a time line though.


You might as well ask a little old lady you met on the bus as a "tech" at DirecTV. Why not ask your question rhetorically, then flip a coin: Head is "yes" and tails is "no."

For instance, "Will DirecTV ever implement DLB on the HR20/21?" Flip the coin, get heads. That means that there is a 50% chance that they will. It also means that there is a 50% chance they won't.

At least you'd always have a 50% chance of getting the right answer. That, in my experience, is better odds than getting a correct answer from anyone you can reach at DirecTV.


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## JAYPB

rbrome said:


> Eh... I watch so little live TV that I don't really care. Who are you people that watch so much live TV? Isn't the whole point of a DVR that you can watch shows on YOUR schedule?
> 
> I would MUCH rather have MRV. I'd give up On Demand, Remote Booking, AND DLB (if I had it) for multi-room viewing in a heartbeat.


A- Do you have children?

B- Do you have multiple DVR's?

C- Do you watch sports?

For me, DLB is applicable for all of the above.

A: Kids---kitchen table---breakfast/dinner...mom and dad's viewing is on 1 tuner (maybe the news, maybe Mom wants to watch a game show---but NOT record it) and the kids want to watch their kiddie shows....so on commercials we hit the Live TV button on the Tivo remote and flip back and forth.

B: I have 4 HR10's and 1 HR20. I'm recording too much stuff now as it is. I don't want to have to hit record every time I have an itchin to just "watch TV" or "check out a new show"....so I like to (on the off chance that I'm NOT watching something that my numerous DVR's have recorded) scan/flip/peruse Live TV. I LIKE having that option....nay I've grown to RELY on it. Once I make that ultimate 100% switch to the HR20 I won't have that option.

C: I have 2 TV's in the basement... one has a HR10 and the other an HR20 and when it's sports time (NFL/MLB/NCAA) I want to flip back and forth between games...and now I can't do that on the HR20...but I still can on the HR10

But, that's just me....


----------



## Splendor

i (heart) dlb.


----------



## gkrein

Since you have to be connected to the internet in order to use the on demand feature, does anyone know of a device that I can plug into the ethernet port on the hr20-700 so it can receive wireless internet from my wireless network.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

gkrein said:


> Since you have to be connected to the internet in order to use the on demand feature, does anyone know of a device that I can plug into the ethernet port on the hr20-700 so it can receive wireless internet from my wireless network.


Not sure why this is in the Dual Buffere thread...

But yes... there are several.

Do a serach on Wireless Bridge.... or Gameing Adapter..

Or check one of the site sponsors: DVRUpgrade, they carry the Buffalo Wireless Bridge


----------



## millercentral

Hopefully this hasn't been covered before (I'm a new guy here), but I've been thinking about another option besides dual live buffer for the dual tuners.

I'm a LONG time Tivo fanatic (almost 10 years since I got my first tivo), so it was a bittersweet day today that I placed the order to replace my HR10-250 and two HDR2 tivos with HR20s. I'm sure I'll miss the tivos dual live buffers, but I've always thought dual idle tuners could be used to improve channel sufing speeds.

Wouldn't it be interesting if any time I pressed CH+ on the remote the STB not only changed the channel to the next higher channel, but also set the second tuner to the channel above that, so that the next time I pressed CH+ the next channel would appear much more quickly (because the box would just switch to showing the next tuner). Imagining the same thing for CH- (but next lower channel) and for direct entry always move the other tuner to the destination, so that PreviousChannel jump is then quick. Ever since we switched to satellite TV my wife has complained that channel surfing is too slow (granted we do *a lot* less of it in the age of Tivo), it seems like dual tuners could be utilized to improve this (at the cost of dual live buffers). While I can think of times where Dual Buffers have been very handy, I'm certain my wife would say speedy channel surfing would be more useful day to day.

Who knows, maybe the HR20s already work this way, and that is why they haven't made the change to dual buffers? I guess I'll find out next month when they come to install them.


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## bradpr

I don't understand why neither dual buffering nor picture in picture are in the D* software. Is it some patent issue from the Tivo license? These are two staple items for dual tuner hardware. I assumed (stupid me) when I got my HR20 that it would just have DLB and PIP. My crappy old DVR cable box did, Dish network's DVR's do, why wouldn't Directv's? That'll teach me to expect the market leader to follow something as trendy as DLB or PIP - those technologies are just fads, right?


----------



## gully_foyle

kwsmithphoto said:


> I'm new here and don't have the time to read all 74 pages of this thread, so forgive me if I've repeated something said before, probably many times.


Said many times in many ways, but pretty much the same thing. There is a question that separates good user interfaces from bad ones: Do you have to read the manual to do simple things? This isn't a UI design, it's a UI happening.

I would hope that one of the first things the new management does is buy TiVo. You can have the whole company for $700 million. Then you can have the best UI, kill E*'s DVR, _and_ have quick updates for your TiVo software. Given that cable is going to kill cablecard anyway, D* can use TiVo like it uses NFL Season Ticket: get it here or don't get it.


----------



## gully_foyle

millercentral said:


> Who knows, maybe the HR20s already work this way, and that is why they haven't made the change to dual buffers? I guess I'll find out next month when they come to install them.


Uh, no. Channel changing speeds are not a strong point of the HR20.


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## pjs2004

rbrome said:


> Eh... I watch so little live TV that I don't really care. Who are you people that watch so much live TV? Isn't the whole point of a DVR that you can watch shows on YOUR schedule?
> 
> I would MUCH rather have MRV. I'd give up On Demand, Remote Booking, AND DLB (if I had it) for multi-room viewing in a heartbeat.


I don't think that just because you have a DVR, you should watch everything delayed. I watch 50% live and 50% recorded. But, that's the genius of DLB! It makes watching live tv SO much better!! When watching live tv, it's the ultimate way to skip commercials, and in doing so, you are watching another entire show at the same time. I'm so dependent on this feature, I'm delaying giving up my DirecTivo and switching to HD.


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## slaviers

I thought DLB was a TIVO patent. Since D*s fallout with TIVO, I think it won't happen on any product that is not paying TIVO a royalty. The whole point of D* parting with TIVO was to save royalty and develop their own product


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## ShiningBengal

slaviers said:


> I thought DLB was a TIVO patent. Since D*s fallout with TIVO, I think it won't happen on any product that is not paying TIVO a royalty. The whole point of D* parting with TIVO was to save royalty and develop their own product


Absolutely untrue. There are a number of non-TiVo DVR's including Scientific Atlanta and Motorola that have it.


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## jheda

moderators have unequivocally stated this to be untrue. Many other DVR's have this feature, aside from tivo. Search this site for more details. Not having DLB was a decision D* made for reasons undisclosed to this date.....



slaviers said:


> I thought DLB was a TIVO patent. Since D*s fallout with TIVO, I think it won't happen on any product that is not paying TIVO a royalty. The whole point of D* parting with TIVO was to save royalty and develop their own product


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## ShiningBengal

jheda said:


> Not having DLB was a decision D* made for reasons undisclosed to this date.....


I'm wondering if it may have something to do with the way the HR20/21 handles "live" TV. Unlike TiVo, you actually can watch live TV--that is concurrent with that live TV being recorded. When you use trick play, then you change ponies, so to speak, and start watching from the buffer.

Since this is a fairly major shift (don't know if it is unique to the HR20/21) from how TiVo handles live TV playback, it may complicate things. Since I haven't read anywhere as to what the rationale might be for making such a major departure from a known successful implementation of how the live buffer works, this is obviously just conjecture.

But whether the reason is technical, or for some other reason, I think folks are living in Disneyland if they think they will see DLB on the HR20...ever.


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## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> moderators have unequivocally stated this to be untrue. Many other DVR's have this feature, aside from tivo. Search this site for more details. Not having DLB was a decision D* made for reasons undisclosed to this date.....


All I know is that I have never seen a DLB Patent from TiVo or anyone else .. not saying it doesn't exist, but I just haven't seen it. It has been stated that a number of different companies DVRs include DLB, so it is doubtful that the issue is due to any Patent limitations. Without actually knowing the answer, I suspect that the problem is more related to some sort of design decision and corrective action is just too hard at this point.


----------



## reggie

pjs2004 said:


> When watching live tv, it's the ultimate way to skip commercials, and in doing so, you are watching another entire show at the same time. I'm so dependent on this feature, I'm delaying giving up my DirecTivo and switching to HD.


Me too. If I got a HR20/21 for free I would take it for the HD, but I would still keep my DirecTivo.


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## Earl Bonovich

reggie said:


> Me too. If I got a HR20/21 for free I would take it for the HD, but I would still keep my DirecTivo.


But if you paid for your HR20/21... you would get rid of your DirecTiVo?


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## jheda

As much as I love DLB (well documented) IMHO the HD factor plus the workaround albeit cumbersome *significantly *outweighs keeping sdtivo...


reggie said:


> Me too. If I got a HR20/21 for free I would take it for the HD, but I would still keep my DirecTivo.


----------



## furjaw

ShiningBengal said:


> Absolutely untrue. There are a number of non-TiVo DVR's including Scientific Atlanta and Motorola that have it.


I was at a relative's house who had Time Warner cable witha Scientific Atlanta DVR. I couldn't figure out how to switch tuners. Does anybody know?


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## ShiningBengal

furjaw said:


> I was at a relative's house who had Time Warner cable witha Scientific Atlanta DVR. I couldn't figure out how to switch tuners. Does anybody know?


Not all Scientific Atlanta DVR's have dual tuners. Are you sure the machine had dual tuners? Get the model number and go to Time Warner's website to get information on their hardware.

Here is a list of the DVR's that (supposedly) all provide dual live buffers:

1. Dish Network - ViP622
2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

The Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000HD is the only SciAtlanta product listed for Time Warner


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## Lord Vader

The reason is NOT technical. It's not software-related; it's not patent-related. DirecTV simply *chooses * not to implement it. Period.


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## henryld

Lord Vader said:


> The reason is NOT technical. It's not software-related; it's not patent-related. DirecTV simply *chooses * not to implement it. Period.


Assuming (I know, I know) this is true I find it somewhat of an arrogant attitude on D*s part.:nono2:


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## Drew2k

henryld said:


> Assuming (I know, I know) this is true I find it somewhat of an arrogant attitude on D*s part.:nono2:


Why is it arrogant for DIRECTV to choose not to implement a feature? They have their reasons, but we don't know them - they could be financial, legal, we just don't know.


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## M3Rocket

bradpr said:


> I don't understand why neither dual buffering nor picture in picture are in the D* software. Is it some patent issue from the Tivo license?


PiP would require not just dual tuners for two live data streams, it would require two MPEG4/2 decoders. In any case, it is a separate issue than DLB.


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## M3Rocket

It seems like this is a lost cause with D*. 

How many of us would be happy if they just implemented the ability to save a pause point when switching between a recorded program and a "live" buffered program? Because to date, D* hasn't said NO to it like DLB...


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## ub1934

Earl Bonovich said:


> But if you paid for your HR20/21... you would get rid of your DirecTiVo?


And give up my lifetime sub to Tivo ,NO , NO


----------



## henryld

Drew2k said:


> Why is it arrogant for DIRECTV to choose not to implement a feature? They have their reasons, but we don't know them - they could be financial, legal, we just don't know.


According to the statement quoted, I gathered that legal and technical issues were not the reasons. Financial, how? In view of the customer desire for this feature, I find their stance arrogant for the aforementioned reasons. Whatever the reason, I and many others, would like to know; they could have a very good argument, although I doubt it, for non-inclusion.


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## MikeR7

ub1934 said:


> And give up my lifetime sub to Tivo ,NO , NO


I was looking at TIVO's financials today. They have lost megabucks the last three annual reporting periods and the first six months of this FY. What makes you think your lifetime subscription will be worth anything with another few years of this red ink?


----------



## ShiningBengal

ub1934 said:


> And give up my lifetime sub to Tivo ,NO , NO


Your TiVo lifetime subscription is transferred to the DVR Service, so you really aren't losing anything.


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## ub1934

ShiningBengal said:


> Your TiVo lifetime subscription is transferred to the DVR Service, so you really aren't losing anything.


So why does " D " charge you a DVR fee ?


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## DblD_Indy

No DLB, 11 mths till the switch to Dish....


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## ShiningBengal

ub1934 said:


> So why does " D " charge you a DVR fee ?


I don't get charged a fee. I transfered my lifetime TiVo subscription to DVR service.


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## kwsmithphoto

gkrein said:


> Since you have to be connected to the internet in order to use the on demand feature, does anyone know of a device that I can plug into the ethernet port on the hr20-700 so it can receive wireless internet from my wireless network.


Apparently, you need to either plug a CAT5 cable into it, or buy a wireless game adapter or another wireless router to go wireless. That is soooo 2002.

Tivo has had wireless USB since Series 2, and it does a whole lot more than just allow you to get video on demand...


----------



## kwsmithphoto

kcmurphy88 said:


> Said many times in many ways, but pretty much the same thing. There is a question that separates good user interfaces from bad ones: Do you have to read the manual to do simple things? This isn't a UI design, it's a UI happening.
> 
> I would hope that one of the first things the new management does is buy TiVo. You can have the whole company for $700 million. Then you can have the best UI, kill E*'s DVR, _and_ have quick updates for your TiVo software. Given that cable is going to kill cablecard anyway, D* can use TiVo like it uses NFL Season Ticket: get it here or don't get it.


Well they both do pretty much the same thing, but I have to hit a LOT more buttons just to do basic things that are obvious with the Tivo interface. Reading the manual only helps if it's a good manual - it isn't - and if you didn't lose your short term memory in high school like most of my generation did. 

For some reason DTV seems to think that their UI is better; I will say it's pretty consistent to their ca. 1995 interface, but the first thing I did when I got my DVR80's was to switch them to the Tivo interface. It's just better, nevermind the DVR or DLB's. Heck, I'd just like a "Live TV" button at this point. Having to hit the Guide button just see a thumbnail of what's on one of the tuners (you never know which one) is absurd.

I like your idea about DTV buying Tivo, that would be a really smart move on their part. If they were the only vendor of Tivo(tm) products and services that would swing a lot of cable and maybe even Dish customers their way. Carry on with the standalone boxes, but go back to making the Tivo interface the DTV interface, while locking out the competition. Brilliant.

Like I said, Tivo is a verb now, not a product in consumer's minds. Tivo may not have the marketing resources they used to because they can't afford it anymore, but a fresh infusion of cash from DTV would fix that. They could help pay for it by scrapping their own DVR development program.

FWIW, locally (Los Angeles Adelphia market), DTV is aggressively marketing to the frustrations of people who are ticked off by the changes TWC made when they bought Adelphia. It's been successful - I know a number of cable users who made the switch and are happy with it, even without the Tivo interface, because DTV's is slightly better (damning with faint praise). EVERYONE I know with Adelphia -> TWC is very unhappy, and there are lines out the door every weekend at their local service office every weekend from people dropping off old boxes after closing their accounts.

Anyway, it's been effective. If they bought Tivo the company, then made themselves the sole provider of the Tivo services and interface with a similarly aggressive marketing push, those lines would get a whole lot longer, I suspect.


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## kwsmithphoto

Earl Bonovich said:


> But if you paid for your HR20/21... you would get rid of your DirecTiVo?


Either way it doesn't matter; if you want all their HD channels you have to get an HR2x.

My choice for now is to suffer with the HR20 in the one room that has an HD monitor, and keep using the "DirecTivo" boxes for SD in the other two rooms which only have 4:3 SD screens for now. I'd like to upgrade them, but if the HR2x boxes are the only way to get HD, no thanks.

IOW, their own DVR design is literally preventing us from buying two more flat screens. OK we could buy HD monitors for those rooms too and run them in SD with the RCA Tivo's, but that would be silly.

If they did what I'd like them to do they would earn revenue from the lease/sale of two more DVR's, and their retailers would sell two more HD monitors. I don't see how the current situation (HR2x or nothing) is good for them or their retail network.

BTW, if anyone from DTV is listening, a firmware update ain't gonna cut it. Your self-developed remotes are junque and the on-screen UI sucks, you guys aren't even close. I used to convince all my cable friends to go with you guys but now I just tell them to seek other options. Oh, and btw, FIOS is slowly being strung in my neighborhood but while you have better options right now, even with your crappy DVR, it's another thing on the table when our contract comes up in a year.


----------



## GregLee

furjaw said:


> I was at a relative's house who had Time Warner cable witha Scientific Atlanta DVR. I couldn't figure out how to switch tuners. Does anybody know?


Yes. Go to a channel you want in the first buffer. Hit PIP to turn on "picture-in-picture". Hit SWAP to make the PIP channel the main channel. Go to the channel you want in the second buffer. That's it -- whenever you want to switch to the other buffer, hit SWAP. Hit PAUSE whenever you want to hold up playing one of the buffers. Turn off the PIP or move it to another quadrant whenever you like.

I had SA DVRs from TWC for a long time -- the 8000, then the 8300, then the 8300HD -- and I tried to like this feature, but I just didn't care for it. Not a DLB-type person, so I voted "don't really care".


----------



## shootandedit

Earl Bonovich said:


> But if you paid for your HR20/21... you would get rid of your DirecTiVo?


Just my 2 cents worth. I'm buying a HR20/21 and I'm keeping my HR10 no doubt about it. I hope I can adjust to the lack of DLB. The lack of DLB baffles me. When I got my R10 it changed the way I'll watch tv forever. Hope the R20/21 doesn't make the switch to HD painful.


----------



## shootandedit

MicroBeta said:


> I've been posting about the lack of *DLB* being a problem for a while now(I wrote one of the two letters in post [post=629658]#1[/post] in this thread).
> 
> Although I have been critical of this and other things such as *SLB*, I can honestly say I like my HR20.
> 
> I have _never_ lost/missed any recordings.
> 
> I only have four issues with it....SLB, DLB, the 50 SL Limit, and editing SLs when no episodes are scheduled. If D* fixes these I'll be a happy camper.
> 
> I work with a guy who has a HR20. He had some recording problems early on but hasn't in months. This doesn't mean that others don't have this problem...they do and these problems exist. The question you should be asking is "is this the norm". IMHO, no.
> 
> My point is that the HR20 isn't all gloom-n-doom. It performs well in all areas. Also, in the latest CE *SLB* seems to be fixed(at least I haven't seen it yet).
> 
> I just want readers to know there are plenty of people who don't have major problems with their HR20s.
> 
> Mike


Thanks for the feedback. I just picked up a 62" Tosh and I'm going to take a deep breath and pick up a HR21 if I can find one. The OTA isn't a big issue for me but it would be a nice feature. The lack of DLB and it's stability are the two BIG ones for me.

I'll keep my fingers crossed and update after the install. Soon to be HR20/21, HR10, and a R15.


----------



## swconsult

So was on the phone with D* and got a knowledgeable Supervisor after being obstinate for 10 minutes.

His points on DLB:
It's a TIVO Patent issue and D* is being very careful to make sure they don't violate with the fix (his wording prompted me to ask on the next point)

When asked he verified we can expect it in next couple of months, I asked again to verify and he said yes.


GameLounge: Not now available for HR20-100, no ETA

Hr20-100: Why on my recent (3 week) order for my second HD-DVR did they send me an outdated HR20-100 instead of a 700 or better yet an HR21 (available at the time)? No good answer whatsoever. Be careful when you order, request specific model and refuse delivery on the HR20-100.


----------



## ShiningBengal

swconsult said:


> So was on the phone with D* and got a knowledgeable Supervisor after being obstinate for 10 minutes.
> 
> His points on DLB:
> It's a TIVO Patent issue and D* is being very careful to make sure they don't violate with the fix (his wording prompted me to ask on the next point)


Did you ask why it wasn't a patent issue for Motorola and Scientific Atlanta on their DVR'S?



> When asked he verified we can expect it in next couple of months, I asked again to verify and he said yes.


What we expect is up to us, not DirecTV I expected it when I ordered my HR20. When I didn't get it, I expected DirecTV to implement a feature their competition already has.



> GameLounge: Not now available for HR20-100, no ETA


For what it's worth, the latency involved in the physics of sending a signal 44,000 miles makes most games tedious at best and unplayable at worst. Satellite TV has its strengths--game play is not one of them.



> Hr20-100: Why on my recent (3 week) order for my second HD-DVR did they send me an outdated HR20-100 instead of a 700 or better yet an HR21 (available at the time)? No good answer whatsoever. Be careful when you order, request specific model and refuse delivery on the HR20-100.


The HR20-100 is over a year newer then the HR20-700. Neither is outdated. The -100 means it is made by Thompson Electronics. The -700 stands for another manufacturer--can't remember which at the moment.

The CSR's are unable to assure a customer of any particular HD-DVR. They can request it, but the installer has certain inventory available and will install what they have. This has always been the case.

Why would you want an HR21? The main difference it has with the HR20 is the LACK of OTA Tuners. Oh, and it is black rather than silver.

Question: Does the LACK of a feature improve the product?


----------



## swconsult

ShiningBengal said:


> Did you ask why it wasn't a patent issue for Motorola and Scientific Atlanta on their DVR'S?
> 
> His comment: They weren't as carefule and have been sued.
> 
> What we expect is up to us, not DirecTV I expected it when I ordered my HR20. When I didn't get it, I expected DirecTV to implement a feature their competition already has.
> 
> Absulutely agreed!
> 
> For what it's worth, the latency involved in the physics of sending a signal 44,000 miles makes most games tedious at best and unplayable at worst. Satellite TV has its strengths--game play is not one of them.
> 
> Yeah, I agree but my kid thinks the mini golf is cool. Wait til he gets the Wii I scored for him for the holidays!
> 
> The HR20-100 is over a year newer then the HR20-700. Neither is outdated. The -100 means it is made by Thompson Electronics. The -700 stands for another manufacturer--can't remember which at the moment.
> 
> My bad, knew the manufacturer thing but thought the 100 was older.
> 
> The CSR's are unable to assure a customer of any particular HD-DVR. They can request it, but the installer has certain inventory available and will install what they have. This has always been the case.
> 
> But you can refuse at the install level.
> 
> Why would you want an HR21? The main difference it has with the HR20 is the LACK of OTA Tuners. Oh, and it is black rather than silver.
> 
> My TVs have OTA tuners but I guess I'd loose the DVR function. The cooling capability of the HR21 was a good point to me.
> 
> Question: Does the LACK of a feature improve the product?


We can only dream.


----------



## swconsult

ShiningBengal said:


> Did you ask why it wasn't a patent issue for Motorola and Scientific Atlanta on their DVR'S?
> 
> What we expect is up to us, not DirecTV I expected it when I ordered my HR20. When I didn't get it, I expected DirecTV to implement a feature their competition already has.
> 
> For what it's worth, the latency involved in the physics of sending a signal 44,000 miles makes most games tedious at best and unplayable at worst. Satellite TV has its strengths--game play is not one of them.
> 
> The HR20-100 is over a year newer then the HR20-700. Neither is outdated. The -100 means it is made by Thompson Electronics. The -700 stands for another manufacturer--can't remember which at the moment.
> 
> The CSR's are unable to assure a customer of any particular HD-DVR. They can request it, but the installer has certain inventory available and will install what they have. This has always been the case.
> 
> Why would you want an HR21? The main difference it has with the HR20 is the LACK of OTA Tuners. Oh, and it is black rather than silver.
> 
> Question: Does the LACK of a feature improve the product?


Oops, can't tell my replies above so....

His comment: They weren't as carefule and have been sued.

Agree it's up to us, maintain the fight!

Agree on GameLounge, but my kid loves the mini golf. Wait til he sees the Wii I scored him for the holidays!

You can still refuse delivery at install.

My TVs have OTA but I guess I loose the DVR function. Never used it anyway.
The Main value of the HR21 I saw was the enhanced cooling.


----------



## ShiningBengal

swconsult said:


> The Main value of the HR21 I saw was the enhanced cooling.


The -100 model runs substantially cooler than the -700. The improvement of the HR21 over the HR20-100 is negligible.

You got a perfectly good machine that will only get better (although I seriously doubt it will ever have DLB).

Too bad you didn't get the last CE release, sw 0x1b9. It has a lot of nice new features, including networking your media to your TV and video on deman (VOD).

The national release of software normally follows in a week or two, so you won't have to wait long for these features.


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## Drew2k

Please visit the poll below and share your thoughts on fixing the single live buffer ... is it important to you? How much?

Forget DLB - Shouldn't pausing the SLB during playback come first?

Vote in the poll and let us know how you voted, so the thread stays active and we can get as much attention to is as possible!


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## smoking_rubber

I can't live without it much longer. I had to go up to the HR20 and I renew my hate for it every single night. Now that I've lived with a DLB DVR, I can except no substitute. Someone please choke whomever is in charge over there.


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## Que

From 9/7/07



Que said:


> A must have! 1840 76.16%
> Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
> Voters: 2416
> 
> Replies 1,437
> Views 78,583


Today

A must have! 2357 77.00%
Don't really care about it. 152 4.97%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 552 18.03%
Voters: 3061.

Replies 1,880 
Views 102,583


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## rawilson

smoking_rubber said:


> I can't live without it much longer. I had to go up to the HR20 and I renew my hate for it every single night. Now that I've lived with a DLB DVR, I can except no substitute. Someone please choke whomever is in charge over there.


I feel your pain and agree 100%. If I had it to do over again, I would've switched to Dish. True, DirecTV has many more HD channels, but I find that I don't watch the extra ones very much at all...ESPECIALLY without DLBs. In fact, I pretty much only watch sports on my new $1300 TV now....and that's somewhat diminshed without DLB :-(.


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## vicmeldrew

rawilson said:


> I feel your pain and agree 100%. If I had it to do over again, I would've switched to Dish. True, DirecTV has many more HD channels, but I find that I don't watch the extra ones very much at all...ESPECIALLY without DLBs. In fact, I pretty much only watch sports on my new $1300 TV now....and that's somewhat diminshed without DLB :-(.


know what you mean; i declined a purchase on a new HDTV this weekend because I use the DLB almost always when watching TV, especially football. Whenever I have to quit using my SD Tivos I will consider a move also unless this issue has been addressed; and if it is, at that time i will move up to HDTV and take advantage of the technology, anyway, where I live D has not picked up the locals so that may come into the decision also.


----------



## Que

Que said:


> Made a poll to find out how many people sent in snail mail letters to D* http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103897


Anyone else?


----------



## boltjames

Mods:

Please close this thread.

Thank you.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Mods:
> 
> Please close this thread.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> BJ


Mods, please don't.


----------



## Lord Vader

Mods, ignore boltjames. He thinks he speaks for everyone.


----------



## luckydob

so...here I am still waiting on that reason why DLB would not be installed in the HR20. I recall someone telling me it would obvious and we would know why. If I remember correctly I think that was about 6-7 months ago.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Mods:
> 
> Please close this thread.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> BJ


Mods, please don't

If you don't like it don't read it.

Mike


----------



## inkahauts

luckydob said:


> so...here I am still waiting on that reason why DLB would not be installed in the HR20. I recall someone telling me it would obvious and we would know why. If I remember correctly I think that was about 6-7 months ago.


They are working on fixing the SLB right now, so I would say that is a good start to dlb.... and lets face it no slb, no way any dlb will work...


----------



## luckydob

inkahauts said:


> They are working on fixing the SLB right now, so I would say that is a good start to dlb.... and lets face it no slb, no way any dlb will work...


sure they are working on SLB...and I have a bridge to sell you. I've heard that one for about 6 months now.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

luckydob said:


> so...here I am still waiting on that reason why DLB would not be installed in the HR20. I recall someone telling me it would obvious and we would know why. If I remember correctly I think that was about 6-7 months ago.


I've trying to think of an obvious (or otherwise) reason. :scratch:

Maybe...how about...what if...ok, I got nothing...:grin:

When I ordered my HR20 in Jan '07, this thread was saying that *DLB* was being worked on.

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

luckydob said:


> sure they are working on SLB...and I have a bridge to sell you. I've heard that one for about 6 months now.


Why don't you look at the release notes for the latest HR20 CE in the Cutting Edge forum. 



Earl Bonovich said:


> *New feature(s)*
> 01 - SLB Updates: Phase I - The live buffer should no longer EVER flush out for any other reason then changing the channel on the live buffer. _Note the Phase I, they are planning more updates for the SLB_


----------



## lman

Drew2k said:


> Why don't you look at the release notes for the latest HR20 CE in the Cutting Edge forum.


I have the latest CE and I don't see any update or difference. They can say they are working on it but until the pause is maintained or there is some other change, I find it hard to believe. I was advised a year ago that DLB was being worked on. We can all see where that is.


----------



## Drew2k

lman said:


> I have the latest CE and I don't see any update or difference. They can say they are working on it but until the pause is maintained or there is some other change, I find it hard to believe. I was advised a year ago that DLB was being worked on. We can all see where that is.


Please re-read the release notes, then, because you may not be understanding what is in the CE release. Also take a look at the anticipation thread for this CE, where SLB is discussed (amongst other topics). This CE release is *only Phase 1* of SLB updates, focusing on ensuring the SLB is never flushed while watching a recording. If you watch a recording and return to live TV and the buffer has not been purged, then you *wouldn't* notice anything - it's working like it should, based on updates introduced in this CE.


----------



## lman

Drew2k said:


> Please re-read the release notes, then, because you may not be understanding what is in the CE release. Also take a look at the anticipation thread for this CE, where SLB is discussed (amongst other topics). This CE release is *only Phase 1* of SLB updates, focusing on ensuring the SLB is never flushed while watching a recording. If you watch a recording and return to live TV and the buffer has not been purged, then you *wouldn't* notice anything - it's working like it should, based on updates introduced in this CE.


It's working like they say it should not like it should. I recall about 2 months ago the SLB issue was supposed to have been corrected in a CE release. Now I hear they're still working on it. Like I said when I see changes I'll believe it.


----------



## Splendor

Drew2k said:


> Why don't you look at the release notes for the latest HR20 CE in the Cutting Edge forum.


That's good news. :eek2:


----------



## cygnusloop

MicroBeta said:


> I've trying to think of an obvious (or otherwise) reason. :scratch:
> 
> Maybe...how about...what if...ok, I got nothing...:grin:
> 
> Mike


I've, in the past, offered up my own crazy theories on the lack of DLB, mostly because I don't like what I see as "the obvious reason".

The obvious reason, IMO, is simply that _DIRECTV wants to reserve the inactive background tuner for their own use._

We saw, a few releases ago, that they were, inadvertently, grabbing the _foreground _tuner to push showcases. Fortunately, this was quickly fixed, but I find it to be compelling evidence that the intention is to use the background tuner for pushing showcases, and perhaps other uses.

This is what has been in the back of my mind as the "real" reason for some time, but I just never wanted to admit it to myself. The fact that they intend to push "popular" content as a complement to VOD is, to me, further evidence that this is the reason. (The mysterious "third tuner" notwithstanding.)

I understand that it is "their" DVR platform, and that the decision was made to make showcases/pushed content a key part of that platform. The fact that they need the background tuner to be available on occasion would seem to necessarily preclude DLB, a feature that would, by definition, need the background tuner 24/7, or at least when the unit is not in standby.

Maybe it's just another crazy theory, but to me, it stinks of the truth. We'll see.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

cygnusloop said:


> I've, in the past, offered up my own crazy theories on the lack of DLB, mostly because I don't like what I see as "the obvious reason".
> 
> The obvious reason, IMO, is simply that _DIRECTV wants to reserve the inactive background tuner for their own use._
> 
> We saw, a few releases ago, that they were, inadvertently, grabbing the _foreground _tuner to push showcases. Fortunately, this was quickly fixed, but I find it to be compelling evidence that the intention is to use the background tuner for pushing showcases, and perhaps other uses.
> 
> This is what has been in the back of my mind as the "real" reason for some time, but I just never wanted to admit it to myself. The fact that they intend to push "popular" content as a complement to VOD is, to me, further evidence that this is the reason. (The mysterious "third tuner" notwithstanding.)
> 
> I understand that it is "their" DVR platform, and that the decision was made to make showcases/pushed content a key part of that platform. The fact that they need the background tuner to be available on occasion would seem to necessarily preclude DLB, a feature that would, by definition, need the background tuner 24/7, or at least when the unit is not in standby.
> 
> Maybe it's just another crazy theory, but to me, it stinks of the truth. We'll see.


There was some weird stuff happening during that CE. It may also explain a lot.

On my HR20 1/2 of the showcases were recorded in the middle of the night with the other half recorded in the afternoon/evening.

Maybe not such a crazy theory after all. :eek2:

I hope I'm not getting *DLB* because D* wants to use the background tuner to send me car commercials. :bad_nono:

I wonder if anyone's missing recordings have a showcase recorded around that time. :guck:

Mike


----------



## boltjames

cygnusloop said:


> I've, in the past, offered up my own crazy theories on the lack of DLB, mostly because I don't like what I see as "the obvious reason".
> 
> The obvious reason, IMO, is simply that _DIRECTV wants to reserve the inactive background tuner for their own use._


D* doesn't want you flipping channels when you should be watching more commercials. Savvy?

DLB is a commercial killer, and that means less revenue for D* when it's time to negotiate ad rates. Additionally, they have their hands full launching new HD channels, they apparently have a SLB issue to contend with, and they don't need to provide this feature to make more profits.

There's no reason to add this feature as it doesn't help D* at all. They're not losing even a slight fraction of the user base, they're not going to get any ROI off this supposed enhancement, and Mr. & Mrs. America didn't use the damned thing on their HR10's anyway. When you all get that through your heads, we can close this awful thread and focus on more important issues.

BJ


----------



## Lord Vader

TIVO was more dependent on advertising than D* was or ever will be, yet TIVO had DLB. It's not an awful thread. If you don't like it, don't come here and pretend to tell everyone else how to think.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> There's no reason to add this feature as it doesn't help D* at all.


Incorrect. By adding dual-buffer swap functionality, DIRECTV will provide an easy upgrade path for anyone currently using DLB on a DVR such as a TiVo. Two years from now when the HD playing field is leveled and a customer has a choice between Comcast/TiVo with DLB and DIRECTV without it, there's your reason that DIRECTV should add DLB functionality.



> They're not losing even a slight fraction of the user base,


But they may gain users faster by offering DLB - users who have it won't be "giving it up" by coming to DIRECTV's HR20/HR21 DVRs.



> they're not going to get any ROI off this supposed enhancement,


They gain user satisfaction from those who have sorely missed DLB and promote and build loyalty from that same group of customers. When their commitment period ends and that customer chooses to remain with DIRECTV, there's your ROI.



> and Mr. & Mrs. America didn't use the damned thing on their HR10's anyway.


Really? Or is that just your opinion?



> When you all get that through your heads, we can close this awful thread and focus on more important issues.
> 
> BJ


"We" like this thread so "we" don't need to see it closed. "We" suggest, once again, that "you" skip over any thread you have no interest in or that you deem of little importance.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> "We" like this thread so "we" don't need to see it closed. "We" suggest, once again, that "you" skip over any thread you have no interest in or that you deem of little importance.


Well said! For a person who claims not to care about DLB, BJ sure spends a lot of time "trolling" here. What is it about him that won't let go?


----------



## Lord Vader

Delusions of grandeur, it seems.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> D* doesn't want you flipping channels when you should be watching more commercials. Savvy?
> 
> DLB is a commercial killer, and that means less revenue for D* when it's time to negotiate ad rates. Additionally, they have their hands full launching new HD channels, they apparently have a SLB issue to contend with, and they don't need to provide this feature to make more profits.
> 
> There's no reason to add this feature as it doesn't help D* at all. They're not losing even a slight fraction of the user base, they're not going to get any ROI off this supposed enhancement, and Mr. & Mrs. America didn't use the damned thing on their HR10's anyway. When you all get that through your heads, we can close this awful thread and focus on more important issues.
> 
> BJ


If it's really that distasteful why do you keep reading and posting?

You've been accused of being a troll on a few other forums and now I'm begining to think they were all correct. You are a troll!

If you don't like this "awful thread" quit reading it.

Mike


----------



## jaywdetroit

What's the latest on DLB? 

I've been off working, getting divorced and all that fun stuff. Life is just now starting to settle down (a little).


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> Well said! For a person who claims not to care about DLB, BJ sure spends a lot of time "trolling" here. What is it about him that won't let go?


I am not a troll. What I am is a passionate fan of the HR20, one who for a long time was prejudiced against it by the HR10 zealots.

And the reason for the prejudice? Yup, DLB. Over in that other forum, not a kind word about the HR20 at all. Just misinformation all around and lots of DLB whining.

Takes me months of research and questions to cut through the propoganda and find out that the HR20 is good. So I get brave, I ditch the HR10, pick up the HR20 and find that it's a terrific machine. I go back to let the others know that there is life after the HR10 and WHAM! nothing but a face full of DLB-this, DLB-that, "it's not a Tivo" this, "your HR20 won't record shows" that.

So, seeing this ridiculous DLB sticky atop the HR20 board bothers me. It's a reminder of the people who whined and complained so much on the other board, and I feel it's not something good for the DBS community. Someone on the fence about D* or the HR20/21 lands here to get some information and WHAM! there's the massively repetitive sticky with the massive post count, spreading sadness, confusion, and misinformation around yet again.

While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you, I think that for the better good of the tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here now that D* has scores of new channels, and for the better good of the future of the DBS community, this thread should be shut down. It's overdue. Everyone gets your point. I'm sure D* knows that a few of you want this. Enough. It's a festering pimple on the nose of this forum. Sticks out like the sore thumb it is. Draws too much attention to something minor and something whiney. Not positive. Too negative. Unfortunate. Overplayed. Overdue.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> I am not a troll. What I am is a passionate fan of the HR20, one who for a long time was prejudiced against it by the HR10 zealots.
> 
> And the reason for the prejudice? Yup, DLB. Over in that other forum, not a kind word about the HR20 at all. Just misinformation all around and lots of DLB whining.
> 
> Takes me months of research and questions to cut through the propoganda and find out that the HR20 is good. So I get brave, I ditch the HR10, pick up the HR20 and find that it's a terrific machine. I go back to let the others know that there is life after the HR10 and WHAM! nothing but a face full of DLB-this, DLB-that, "it's not a Tivo" this, "your HR20 won't record shows" that.
> 
> So, seeing this ridiculous DLB sticky atop the HR20 board bothers me. It's a reminder of the people who whined and complained so much on the other board, and I feel it's not something good for the DBS community. Someone on the fence about D* or the HR20/21 lands here to get some information and WHAM! there's the massively repetitive sticky with the massive post count, spreading sadness, confusion, and misinformation around yet again.
> 
> While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you, I think that for the better good of the tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here now that D* has scores of new channels, and for the better good of the future of the DBS community, this thread should be shut down. It's overdue. Everyone gets your point. I'm sure D* knows that a few of you want this. Enough. It's a festering pimple on the nose of this forum. Sticks out like the sore thumb it is. Draws too much attention to something minor and something whiney. Not positive. Too negative. Unfortunate. Overplayed. Overdue.
> 
> BJ


/ignore


----------



## n3ntj

jaywdetroit said:


> What's the latest on DLB?


Yeah, do we have any updates? Is D* looking into incorporating this into HR 20's?


----------



## marcmec

boltjames said:


> While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you...


Hmm, 77% say that it is a must have. I think that is a _large_ fraction.


----------



## Lord Vader

And it's hardly "minor"!


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> I am not a troll. What I am is a passionate fan of the HR20, one who for a long time was prejudiced against it by the HR10 zealots.
> 
> And the reason for the prejudice? Yup, DLB. Over in that other forum, not a kind word about the HR20 at all. Just misinformation all around and lots of DLB whining.
> 
> Takes me months of research and questions to cut through the propoganda and find out that the HR20 is good. So I get brave, I ditch the HR10, pick up the HR20 and find that it's a terrific machine. I go back to let the others know that there is life after the HR10 and WHAM! nothing but a face full of DLB-this, DLB-that, "it's not a Tivo" this, "your HR20 won't record shows" that.
> 
> So, seeing this ridiculous DLB sticky atop the HR20 board bothers me. It's a reminder of the people who whined and complained so much on the other board, and I feel it's not something good for the DBS community. Someone on the fence about D* or the HR20/21 lands here to get some information and WHAM! there's the massively repetitive sticky with the massive post count, spreading sadness, confusion, and misinformation around yet again.
> 
> While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you, I think that for the better good of the tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here now that D* has scores of new channels, and for the better good of the future of the DBS community, this thread should be shut down. It's overdue. Everyone gets your point. I'm sure D* knows that a few of you want this. Enough. It's a festering pimple on the nose of this forum. Sticks out like the sore thumb it is. Draws too much attention to something minor and something whiney. Not positive. Too negative. Unfortunate. Overplayed. Overdue.
> 
> BJ


I guess you should be a moderator, then, since you are passionaltely anti-DLB "for the benefit" of the "DLB community?" Perhaps you should send out a few PM's to the current moderators to see if they can't put you in charge of something.

Sir, with all due respect, everyone gets _your point_! Why don't you take your soapbox to another "community" so they can benefit from your insights? Unless you have something new to contribute, what is the point of your continued flames here?

/ignore


----------



## Milominderbinder2

If DIRECTV would just let PREV work so that you could go between two recordings like the manual says, we could have a decent work-around...

What was the advantage of not letting PREV toggle between Recordings?

Why?

- Craig


----------



## tschwenke

Milominderbinder2 said:


> If DIRECTV would just let PREV work so that you could go between two recordings like the manual says, we could have a decent work-around...
> 
> What was the advantage of not letting PREV toggle between Recordings?
> 
> Why?
> 
> - Craig


I have had my HR20 for a week and while I loved my HR10, I really only have one huge complaint, we all know what it is...

But, I was able to do this yesterday, record both shows and use PREV to go between, but then you need to go vote in the SLB thread as well. As you can not pause and go back.

It is very frustrating...


----------



## Knon2000

You know what was fustrating? Yesterday, I decided to hook one of my HR10's back into my main hometheator setup, mainly so I could have 4 tuners to watch football with. Well, to make a long story short, the HR10 froze up on me. The HR20 doesn't have DLB (for me, really not a big deal EXCEPT for watching football) kept on ticking, but the HR10 froze 
So, I had to do a reboot on it, losing the buffer anyway.
It did work fine after that though. 
Moral of story, don't think everything will be perfect once/if we get DLB, because something else can/will still happen.


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> I am not a troll. What I am is a passionate fan of the HR20, one who for a long time was prejudiced against it by the HR10 zealots.
> 
> And the reason for the prejudice? Yup, DLB. Over in that other forum, not a kind word about the HR20 at all. Just misinformation all around and lots of DLB whining.
> 
> Takes me months of research and questions to cut through the propoganda and find out that the HR20 is good. So I get brave, I ditch the HR10, pick up the HR20 and find that it's a terrific machine. I go back to let the others know that there is life after the HR10 and WHAM! nothing but a face full of DLB-this, DLB-that, "it's not a Tivo" this, "your HR20 won't record shows" that.
> 
> So, seeing this ridiculous DLB sticky atop the HR20 board bothers me. It's a reminder of the people who whined and complained so much on the other board, and I feel it's not something good for the DBS community. Someone on the fence about D* or the HR20/21 lands here to get some information and WHAM! there's the massively repetitive sticky with the massive post count, spreading sadness, confusion, and misinformation around yet again.
> 
> While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you, I think that for the better good of the tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here now that D* has scores of new channels, and for the better good of the future of the DBS community, this thread should be shut down. It's overdue. Everyone gets your point. I'm sure D* knows that a few of you want this. Enough. It's a festering pimple on the nose of this forum. Sticks out like the sore thumb it is. Draws too much attention to something minor and something whiney. Not positive. Too negative. Unfortunate. Overplayed. Overdue.
> 
> BJ


This might be one of the most immature posts I've ever read on a message board.

Also, +1 on the delusions of grandeur statement. Someone obviously thinks they know more than the mods and now needs to 'police' this thread. Seriously, get a life and grow-up. :nono2:


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> So, seeing this ridiculous DLB sticky atop the HR20 board bothers me. It's a reminder of the people who whined and complained so much on the other board, and I feel it's not something good for the DBS community. Someone on the fence about D* or the HR20/21 lands here to get some information and WHAM! there's the massively repetitive sticky with the massive post count, spreading sadness, confusion, and misinformation around yet again.
> 
> While I understand that this minor thing means a lot to a small fraction of you, I think that for the better good of the tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here now that D* has scores of new channels, and for the better good of the future of the DBS community, this thread should be shut down. It's overdue. Everyone gets your point. I'm sure D* knows that a few of you want this. Enough. It's a festering pimple on the nose of this forum. Sticks out like the sore thumb it is. Draws too much attention to something minor and something whiney. Not positive. Too negative. Unfortunate. Overplayed. Overdue.
> 
> BJ


Which would you prefer:

One "bothersome" thread at the top

--OR--​
A large quantity of threads started by the "tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here" because they can't get to the other tuner on their new HR2x they got to go with their new flat panel display they got on black Friday?

There you have it. The needs of the many (those who do not want the board cluttered with multiple DLB threads) easily outweigh the needs of the one person who is "bothered" by a "ridiculous DLB sticky" (you).


----------



## Boiler_81

DLB is a big deal to me and my family. We just moved from SD DirecTv TIVO and this is the feature we miss the most.


----------



## markman07

My wife was using the main HD TV yesterday to watch her now 9-1 Packers. Most times I am there with her. So she has the HR20 on the Packers game. Wants to switch to other games while there is a commercial. She yells up to me (watching another game on another tv) why doesn't the tuner switch when I press down on the remote pad. 

Like I am going to try to explain to her how the two tuners work on an HR 20! And then I am going to try to explain how the WORK AROUND works ! NOT. 
Enough excuses .. lets make this happen. Come on 77+ pages.

--
My fix --- Push the TIVO button on our Harmony remote to switch over to the HR10-250 which we still have and use with this same TV. Problem solved. Next year is where the big problem comes in..no Sunday ticket viewable on the HR10.


----------



## Lord Vader

Mark, if you've got OTA and have your local team on that, that would help.


----------



## markman07

Yes I will still be able to use the HR10-250 DLB via my OTA games.


----------



## Que

A must have! 2444 77.27%
Don't really care about it. 154 4.87%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 565 17.86%
Voters: 3163

Replies- 1,921
Views- 108,017


----------



## Splendor

I can has DLB?


----------



## MikeR7

Splendor said:


> I can has DLB?


huh? :lol:


----------



## boltjames

Total HR20 Ownership 240,440
A must have! 2,444 1.00%
Aren't concerned enough to post or complain. 237,996 99.00%

Voters: 3163
Non-Voters: 237,277

Replies- 1,921
Views- 108,017
Perfectly Happy HR20 Owners- 237,277

BJ


----------



## cygnusloop

^^


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> Total HR20 Ownership 240,440
> A must have! 2,444 1.00%
> Aren't concerned enough to post or complain. 237,996 99.00%
> 
> Voters: 3163
> Non-Voters: 237,277
> 
> Replies- 1,921
> Views- 108,017
> Perfectly Happy HR20 Owners- 237,277
> 
> BJ


:icon_lame :box:


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Total HR20 Ownership 240,440
> A must have! 2,444 1.00%
> Aren't concerned enough to post or complain. 237,996 99.00%
> 
> Voters: 3163
> Non-Voters: 237,277
> 
> Replies- 1,921
> Views- 108,017
> Perfectly Happy HR20 Owners- 237,277
> 
> BJ


And statistically speaking, that's a very large sample!


----------



## ub1934

boltjames said:


> Total HR20 Ownership 240,440
> A must have! 2,444 1.00%
> Aren't concerned enough to post or complain. 237,996 99.00%
> 
> Voters: 3163
> Non-Voters: 237,277
> 
> Replies- 1,921
> Views- 108,017
> Perfectly Happy HR20 Owners- 237,277
> 
> BJ


Maybe they just don't know any better. :nono2:


----------



## ShiningBengal

You have to understand, UB, BJ is not intellectually anti DLB, he is emotionally anti DLB. It's like trying to put out a grease fire with water to argue with him on a rational basis. Can't be done.

Furthermore, when trying to put out a grease fire with water, you actually make the fire worse.

If you really want to make him go away, just do as I did. Put him on your ignore list. You are merely fanning the flames.


----------



## beer_geek

You know, if the DLB thread upsets him, the 3 other sticky threads that are about "issues" with the national release must really make him batsh*t crazy.


----------



## Que

ShiningBengal said:


> Furthermore, when trying to put out a grease fire with water, you actually make the fire worse.
> 
> If you really want to make him go away, just do as I did. Put him on your ignore list. You are merely fanning the flames.


..but then people still quote him... 

If you respond to him, he wins. DON"T DO IT!


----------



## katesguy

I have decided that I do not want DLB if DLB means I lose the 90 min buffer. About twice a week we pause for up to 90 min. Two 45 min buffers would not let me do that. I am one of the ones that are happy with the single buffer


----------



## ShiningBengal

katesguy said:


> I have decided that I do not want DLB if DLB means I lose the 90 min buffer. About twice a week we pause for up to 90 min. Two 45 min buffers would not let me do that. I am one of the ones that are happy with the single buffer


There is no technical reason that you should have to lose the 90 minute buffer to get DLB. In fact, it might be easier not to change the buffer.

I would think they would leave the 90 minute buffer intact so as not to PO people who care about it.

Just out of curiousity, those times that you pause 90 minutes: Why couldn't you just as easily record the program as pause it?


----------



## MX727

I just found out that my commitments have all expired. 

A couple of thoughts before I go:

1) When I switched from DiSH, DirecTV was heavily marketing the availability of Tivo. That swayed me as did the Sunday Ticket. Somewhere in the last 1000 posts or so, someone posted a statement to the effect that DirecTV wants customers that are loyal to DTV and not to Tivo. That obviously wasn't always true.

2) Do any of you remember when import cars really started gaining market share and American buyers discovered that the cars didn't have cup holders like we were used to? I remember one German manufacturer trying to tell us why we didn't need them or need that many. Guess what, we wanted them, we were used to them and there was no reason not to put them in cars. 

DLB is like that. If you don't care, fine, but there are many of us who do and we can ***** about it all we want. DirecTV marketed a product to us that had features which they have taken or are in the process of taking from their products.

Most of us have complained in the hopes that DirecTV could and would return the feature to us. For the last year I've been told they are either working on it or the reasons we couldn't have it would become obvious. Well, here we are and one of my HR10s is starting to get a bit cantankerous. I fear it won't be long now.

Rather than throw money at keeping that unit running, I'm going to pull the plug soon and switch back to DiSH and gain 60 minute DLB's in a new HD unit.

I really wish I understood why DirecTV chose to alienate and then failed to respond to a passionate core of their support.


----------



## cypher

Dual buffers was a feature that was included in most DVR's whether SD or HD, so the tradition should be continued. Technology should be improving not going backwards.


----------



## ecdc

A weird thing happened to me tonight. I'm sure it's been discussed on here before, but I'm not going through 78 pages to find it 

My wife had Extreme Makeover: Home Edition on while putting up Christmas decorations. She told me she wasn't really paying attention, so I switched to the football game but recorded Extreme Makeover for her. Easy enough. But then about an hour later, I realized that Extreme Makeover was two hours but was set up in the guide as two, one-hour episodes. I had only recorded the first episode and had missed the first 20-30 minutes of the second. I went back into the guide and hit record on the second hour of Extreme Makeover, thinking it would at least record the last half hour for her.

I told her about it but when she went to watch it, the entire episode was there. I realized I never changed off the Pats/Eagles game so the second tuner was always on Extreme Makeover, allowing me to record the entire episode. 

Isn't that essentially a DLB? The funny thing is, if I'd switched back to Extreme Makeover from the football game, all of that buffered time would've been lost, right? Instead, I recorded it from the guide and since the tuner had been on that channel already, it got the whole show.

If that's possible, I'm at a loss as to why DLB wouldn't be available. The only guess I could even manage is to appease advertisers. Perhaps they see it different than recording a show, watching it hours later and skipping the commercials (at least you catch glimpses of them in fast-forward) instead of switching channels and maintaining your recording so that if you miss the beginning of the show after a commercial, you can rewind back to it.


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, as Earl has stated more than once, the lack of DLB is _*not *_ a technological issue.


----------



## puffnstuff

Lord Vader said:


> Well, as Earl has stated more than once, the lack of DLB is _*not *_ a technological issue.


Yeah we all know that . I just want to know what the reason is , I mean it has been over a year and I still don't see any reason why we don't have them . What are they going to do wait until thier next DVR and then admit their screw up ?


----------



## speedcouch

cypher said:


> Dual buffers was a feature that was included in most DVR's whether SD or HD, so the tradition should be continued. Technology should be improving not going backwards.


That about says it for me as well.

We have had our HR10-250 for about 3 years and make use of our dual buffers quite often. We got a HR20 in May in order to get our locals in HD (since the signal via OTA is so quirky in our area). We kept our HR10-250 as well though and still used it as our primary DVR until just recently. Now with all the HD channels in MPEG-4, we are using the HR20 more and more.

It took all this time for my husband to realize it didn't have two buffers. :eek2: Now he finally understands what I've been *****ing about for the last 6 months.

Cheryl


----------



## boltjames

puffnstuff said:


> Yeah we all know that . I just want to know what the reason is , I mean it has been over a year and I still don't see any reason why we don't have them . What are they going to do wait until thier next DVR and then admit their screw up ?


D* did so many things right with the HR20 that it's very clear that the omission of DLB wasn't a "screw up". It was a deliberate decision.

I don't know for sure, but my opinion on why DLB isn't on the HR20:

1. So few people even knew the feature was there on the HR10 that it didn't matter whether or not they included it on their next model.

2. Demand for the HD boxes is so high, they don't need to worry about the 0.001% of you DLB zealots that are angry that this tweaky feature is missing.

3. Advertising dollars are getting cut back as new media confuses and disperses viewers. Anything designed to distract viewers from watching profitable commercials is deemeed counter to the D* business model. If you study the HR20 vs. the HR10 from an advertising standpoint, the HR20 is designed to make you _see _commercials, wheras the HR10 was designed to _avoid _them.

4. The HR10 was a Tivo box designed around D*. The HR20 is a D* box designed for D*. If D* wanted it there, it would be there. Not like the engineers didn't use the feature themselves.

5. D* felt that they had loaded the HR20 with so many good things and so many technological and ergonomical advances that everyone would view the "loss" of DLB as okay seeing all the other great things they gained. They were correct. Except for the 15 of you that complain. Every day. In this thread. Never ending.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

cypher said:


> Dual buffers was a feature that was included in most DVR's whether SD or HD, so the tradition should be continued. Technology should be improving not going backwards.


And what if DLB wasn't a "feature" but instead the only way that video operating systems of the past could operate? What if what we have today in the HR20 _is _the technical improvement? The ability to utlize the drives and memory more efficiently for other benefits?

My HR10 had audio dropouts, would miss recordings, would be very slow in menus, would stutter and freeze, and require monthly rebooting. My HR20's are flawless, perfect, reliable recorders. They do their job like my refrigerator. Turn it on, walk away, worry about it in 10 years when it starts to break down.

If the DLB had something to do with the HR10's lack of reliability due to its memory strain, well, I'm glad DLB is gone. The HR20 is a rock and should be applauded just as passionately as the DLB factor gets it slammed.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

LOL!


----------



## smithrh

Boltjames = total idiot.


----------



## Lord Vader

:icon_lol:


----------



## Drew2k

smithrh said:


> Boltjames = total idiot.


If you have a problem with a member, use the IGNORE option. Don't stoop to personal attacks - that's a sure way to get moderators to step in and could lead to thread closure, which is certainly what *some* people here want, but not most of us.


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> And what if DLB wasn't a "feature" but instead the only way that video operating systems of the past could operate? What if what we have today in the HR20 _is _the technical improvement? The ability to utlize the drives and memory more efficiently for other benefits?
> 
> My HR10 had audio dropouts, would miss recordings, would be very slow in menus, would stutter and freeze, and require monthly rebooting. My HR20's are flawless, perfect, reliable recorders. They do their job like my refrigerator. Turn it on, walk away, worry about it in 10 years when it starts to break down.
> 
> If the DLB had something to do with the HR10's lack of reliability due to its memory strain, well, I'm glad DLB is gone. The HR20 is a rock and should be applauded just as passionately as the DLB factor gets it slammed.
> 
> BJ


That's just too over the top. You had your fun and have now jumped the shark.


----------



## ShiningBengal

beer_geek said:


> That's just too over the top. You had your fun and have now jumped the shark.


It has been stated before in other forums as well as this one, but it bears repeating:

"DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

Feed them, they thrive. If you don't feed them, they go away.

Not talking about any particular poster. Just good advice in general.


----------



## jheda

Please, heed this advise. Ignore the ridiculous. Respond to the intelligent. All have a right to post, none REQUIRE a response.


ShiningBengal said:


> It has been stated before in other forums as well as this one, but it bears repeating:
> 
> "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"
> 
> Feed them, they thrive. If you don't feed them, they go away.
> 
> Not talking about any particular poster. Just good advice in general.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

:backtotop


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> That's just too over the top. You had your fun and have now jumped the shark.


Answer this question please:

If DLB is such a basic DVR feature _and _it was something that was standard on D*'s first HD DVR _and _it is something they know is important _and _it is something quite simple to accomplish, why isn't it available on the HR20 or its replacement the HR21?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

smithrh said:


> Boltjames = total idiot.


I don't disagree, but please answer the question:

Why isn't DLB available on the HR20 or the new HR21? If it's easy to put on there, if it's something that used to be on D*'s DVR, and it's something they know users want, why isn't it on there?

The HR20/1 has tons of extra features that the HR10 lacked, so clearly D* wasn't trying to take things away from users. DLB isn't a patent issue with Tivo either. D* engineers are likely HD-DVR freaks and enjoyed DLB too. Why'd they not include it on their internally designed, technologically advanced, proprietary DVR's?

BJ


----------



## gregjones

boltjames said:


> Answer this question please:
> 
> If DLB is such a basic DVR feature _and _it was something that was standard on D*'s first HD DVR _and _it is something they know is important _and _it is something quite simple to accomplish, why isn't it available on the HR20 or its replacement the HR21?
> 
> BJ


As discussed numerous times before, the HR20 is not being discontinued. Therefore, the HR21 is not its replacement. The only issue here is DIRECTV not doing a good job of letting people choose which receiver they get.


----------



## boltjames

gregjones said:


> As discussed numerous times before, the HR20 is not being discontinued. Therefore, the HR21 is not its replacement. The only issue here is DIRECTV not doing a good job of letting people choose which receiver they get.


I should rephrase my point: D* went to the trouble of designing a second HD DVR and, again, didn't include DLB. Why?

BJ


----------



## Lord Vader

Perhaps you should ask Earl. There IS a reason, one that neither DirecTV nor Earl is sharing. From what I gather, it's a marketing issue, one that is based in money and selfishness (from the consumer's point of view, that is). 

Perhaps your question should be rephrased: Why did DirecTV remove DLB when transitioning from the TIVOs while everyone else's DVRs retained DLB?

Truthfully, from the information I've gathered, DirecTV's rationale is both indefensible and stupid.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> I should rephrase my point: D* went to the trouble of designing a second HD DVR and, again, didn't include DLB. Why?
> 
> BJ


HR21 isn't really a "new design"... It was just a small step difference from the HR20.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Perhaps you should ask Earl. There IS a reason, one that neither DirecTV nor Earl is sharing. From what I gather, it's a marketing issue, one that is based in money and selfishness (from the consumer's point of view, that is).


You can ask, but since I haven't given the answer in over a year... why do you think I would answer now?

I will tell you it has 100% ZERO to do with marketing...



Lord Vader said:


> Perhaps your question should be rephrased: Why did DirecTV remove DLB when transitioning from the TIVOs while everyone else's DVRs retained DLB?
> 
> Truthfully, from the information I've gathered, DirecTV's rationale is both indefensible and stupid.


Same reason they got rid of the TiVo UI... because it is not a TiVo... end of story. They didn't "remove" anything from the system. Just because everyone "assumed" that it was going to be there in the R15... doesn't make it "removed".

It should have been no shock to most people on the forum boards that it wasn't there in the HR20 series, as it wasn't there in the R15.

As for everyone elses DVRs... good for them. It is what it is.

As from all the information you have gathered....
Sounds like it is all assumption/hersay based conjector information... and not based on the facts of the situation.

End of the day: DirecTV designed their system based on their specification based on their research and plans for the system.


----------



## JAYPB

Earl Bonovich said:


> End of the day: DirecTV designed their system based on their specification based on their research and plans for the system.


IMHO, it's safe to say that, at the very LEAST leaving DLB out of the equation was an "oversight"....and a big one (at least in mine....and a good number of people on this forum) in my eyes.

:nono:


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> You can ask, but since I haven't given the answer in over a year... why do you think I would answer now?
> 
> I will tell you it has 100% ZERO to do with marketing...
> 
> Same reason they got rid of the TiVo UI... because it is not a TiVo... end of story. They didn't "remove" anything from the system. Just because everyone "assumed" that it was going to be there in the R15... doesn't make it "removed".
> 
> It should have been no shock to most people on the forum boards that it wasn't there in the HR20 series, as it wasn't there in the R15.
> 
> As for everyone elses DVRs... good for them. It is what it is.
> 
> As from all the information you have gathered....
> Sounds like it is all assumption/hersay based conjector information... and not based on the facts of the situation.
> 
> End of the day: DirecTV designed their system based on their specification based on their research and plans for the system.


By saying "remove" I didn't not mean they literally took the feature out. It's obvious they did not carry over several of the TIVO features or UI material, but not carrying over one of the most common DVR capabilities, DLB, is, while their choice of course, just stupid.

Let's say DirecTV decided that their DVRs would not permit one to pause live TV--only recorded shows--because that's such a common TIVO (and other DVR) function. Would you be so quick to defend them? I bet you would. Not *everything* DirecTV does makes sense, Earl. They have their reasons for what they do, like all businesses; but like all businesses, some of their decisions are boneheaded or make no sense. That's the price we pay for being imperfect.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Let's say DirecTV decided that their DVRs would not permit one to pause live TV--only recorded shows--because that's such a common TIVO (and other DVR) function. Would you be so quick to defend them? I bet you would. Not *everything* DirecTV does makes sense, Earl. They have their reasons for what they do, like all businesses; but like all businesses, some of their decisions are boneheaded or make no sense. That's the price we pay for being imperfect.


Why is it a "defense" to just re-state the facts of the situation?

Have I said I agreed with their decision to leave out DLB?
Have I said I would vote against the addition of DLB (if it was just that)?

And yes... I would post the according facts, if Pause was removed from the system. (and honestly since I watch so little from the live buffer... not having a PAUSE feature there wouldn't bother me too much... as if I need to keep it... I hit Record, and I have the program. And I do that for most shows that I am watching live anyway, "just in case"... but that is me and my style of using the DVR)


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Why is it a "defense" to just re-state the facts of the situation?


It may not be a defense, _per se_, but I believe many tend to infer it as such.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> It may not be a defense, _per se_, but I believe many tend to infer it as such.


Well... I can't control what people infer / assume.


----------



## Lord Vader

That's where I come in. The Force has a powerful influence on the weak mind.


----------



## Jhon69

I'm starting to believe that it's not that D* can't put in DLB,but that they want you to
record both shows so they can access that information in the DVR's history.


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> That's where I come in. The Force has a powerful influence on the weak mind.


I thought that was "The Shadow's line".:lol:


----------



## woj027

Jhon69 said:


> I'm starting to believe that it's not that D* can't put in DLB,but that they want you to
> record both shows so they can access that information in the DVR's history.


That is the most logical guess that I have heard about why there is no DLB.

Since it's not Technology, Patents, or Money (as stated so many different ways in so many different forums)

All i want for Christmas is the true answer......

and please, no one tell me "You can't handle the Truth!"


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Jhon69 said:


> I'm starting to believe that it's not that D* can't put in DLB,but that they want you to
> record both shows so they can access that information in the DVR's history.


What you don't think they would be able to access a log of what you are watching in the live buffer(s)? (It does do a lookup on guide data to display the info bar).


----------



## cygnusloop

As I stated way upthread, I still think the key reason is that _DIRECTV wants to reserve the inactive tuner for their own use_, to push showcase/VOD type content to the DVR.

If they want to use the inactive tuner for this, even if it is only for very short periods of time, IMHO, it _necessarily _precludes the inclusion of DLB, which would require the second tuner to be buffering 24/7. If DLB existed, there would be no such thing as an "inactive" tuner.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cygnusloop said:


> As I stated way upthread, I still think the key reason is that _DIRECTV wants to reserve the inactive tuner for their own use_, to push showcase/VOD type content to the DVR.
> 
> If they want to use the inactive tuner for this, even if it is only for very short periods of time, IMHO, it _necessarily _precludes the inclusion of DLB, which would require the second tuner to be buffering 24/7. If DLB existed, there would be no such thing as an "inactive" tuner.


As noted many times.

When the unit is receiving a pushed showcase or content... it stops when that tuner is needed. And something like could easily be coded into to compensate for a dual tuner.

As even in the TiVo world, it calculates when the unit is not "active"... so that it doesn't have to put up dialogs when it wants to change the channel in the background tuners.

All you would have to do is establish a min-time level of lack of IR/Remote activity on the unit (say 4 hours)... and then determin that as a period of time when the unit is no longer being actively used by a user. 
(Or over loaded by when the system is in Standby/shutdown mode).


----------



## cygnusloop

Earl Bonovich said:


> As noted many times.


Then why, why, WHY?? For the love of God, man, WHY?


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Answer this question please:
> 
> If DLB is such a basic DVR feature _and _it was something that was standard on D*'s first HD DVR _and _it is something they know is important _and _it is something quite simple to accomplish, why isn't it available on the HR20 or its replacement the HR21?
> 
> BJ


I will answer you right after you answer the question I posed to you on 11-19-07, 10:44 AM.

Which would you prefer:

One "bothersome" thread at the top

--OR--

A large quantity of threads started by the "tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here" because they can't get to the other tuner on their new HR2x they got to go with their new flat panel display they got on black Friday?


----------



## tiger2005

cygnusloop said:


> Then why, why, WHY?? For the love of God, man, WHY?


I think that's the problem, every technical theory that's thrown out there on this site is shot down by Earl. Could it be as simple as DirecTV (Earl, I didn't use D*, but I was SOOOO tempted) just not wanting the feature on their DVR's? I'm honestly out of ideas on why it's not being implemented if its technically feasible for it to be done.


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> I will answer you right after you answer the question I posed to you on 11-19-07, 10:44 AM.
> 
> Which would you prefer:
> 
> One "bothersome" thread at the top
> 
> --OR--
> 
> A large quantity of threads started by the "tens of thousands of newbs that are going to land here" because they can't get to the other tuner on their new HR2x they got to go with their new flat panel display they got on black Friday?


Choice "B". Large quantity of threads. Because this would relieve the board of the perception of DLB as that big a deal that this thread has 100k views. It's a needless pimple atop the board, makes it look like the HR20/1 has a problem, and forces newbs to look at it when they otherwise would be oblivious. Bad enough most message boards about products are filled with complainers; the HR20/1 is phenomenal and it doesn't get enough love on this board.

If we created a new DLB thread with 0 views and a new "The Reasons I Adore my HR20/1" with 0 views, by next year the "Adore" thread would outnumber the "DLB" thread by 5:1. Let's do that.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> I think that's the problem, every technical theory that's thrown out there on this site is shot down by Earl. Could it be as simple as DirecTV just not wanting the feature on their DVR's? I'm honestly out of ideas on why it's not being implemented if its technically feasible for it to be done.


DING!

We have a winner. Well, half a winner. You got the right reason, what you lack is the motivation.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> Choice "B". Large quantity of threads. Because this would relieve the board of the perception of DLB as that big a deal that this thread has 100k views. It's a needless pimple atop the board, makes it look like the HR20/1 has a problem, and forces newbs to look at it when they otherwise would be oblivious. Bad enough most message boards about products are filled with complainers; the HR20/1 is phenomenal and it doesn't get enough love on this board.
> 
> If we created a new DLB thread with 0 views and a new "The Reasons I Adore my HR20/1" with 0 views, by next year the "Adore" thread would outnumber the "DLB" thread by 5:1. Let's do that.
> 
> BJ


Some of the main reasons why this became a single thread.

1) Until something changs on DirecTV side... there isn't a whole lot more to say about it

2) A user... decided he was going to spam the board... and in about a 15 minute period... managed to post and bump about 75 DLB related threads, which pushed every other topic down 3 pages.

So it was a decision to stick the main, long term thread... so anyone looking can easily find the lengthly 16 month conversation on the topic.


----------



## boltjames

cygnusloop said:


> Then why, why, WHY?? For the love of God, man, WHY?


I think one of the reasons has to do with money, speed, and reliability.

I think that no matter how you slice it, no matter how much processors/RAM you throw at it, having two tuners recording seperate HD streams simultaneously puts a big strain on the box. That, in turn, slows down menu access and puts the DVR in scenarios where its lack of muscle can lead to freezes, breakups, lockups, and crashes.

Yes, increasing the processing power could improve things for DLB to exist somewhat safely, but that costs more money and, still, makes the box less speedy and reliable than it otherwise would be without the second tuner and the second HD bitstream being encoded to disc.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> I think that no matter how you slice it, no matter how much processors/RAM you throw at it, having two tuners recording seperate HD streams simultaneously puts a big strain on the box. That, in turn, slows down menu access and puts the DVR in scenarios where its lack of muscle can lead to freezes, breakups, lockups, and crashes.


What is the difference between two LIVE buffers constantly recording something, vs two LIVE Recordings at one time?

It would be the same two tuners.
It would be the same two data streams.
It would be the same two simultaneous writing activities to the drive.

And since you can still access both streams while recording, what really is the difference from a technical level implementation, that would put that much mroe strain on the system regardless if it is a buffer or recording?


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> Some of the main reasons why this became a single thread.
> 
> 1) Until something changs on DirecTV side... there isn't a whole lot more to say about it
> 
> 2) A user... decided he was going to spam the board... and in about a 15 minute period... managed to post and bump about 75 DLB related threads, which pushed every other topic down 3 pages.
> 
> So it was a decision to stick the main, long term thread... so anyone looking can easily find the lengthly 16 month conversation on the topic.


I hear you on that......

Question though, on other boards that have threads that get to a very long length and view count, I've seen them closed and re-opened so as to make the board faster and make them look less important to the newbs. That's my biggest concern here. I was an HR20 newb a short while ago and was very much on the fence to jump from the HR10 to the HR20 only because I was fed so much misinformation and mispeception over on the Tivo board. The HR20 is such a great machine that I'd hate to think that we're creating a similar anti-HR20 perception to newbs and lurkers accidentally.

I understand the plight of the DLB fan, but big picture I think this large thread does more harm than good. The concept was to make D* understand that there are some unhappy customers; I think they get that. Hard to _not _get that if you frequent this subforum. That's the problem that it creates for the newbs and lurkers too. Looks like its a really big deal to everyone when it's really not.

BJ


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Choice "B". Large quantity of threads. Because this would relieve the board of the perception of DLB as that big a deal that this thread has 100k views. It's a needless pimple atop the board, makes it look like the HR20/1 has a problem, and forces newbs to look at it when they otherwise would be oblivious. Bad enough most message boards about products are filled with complainers; the HR20/1 is phenomenal and it doesn't get enough love on this board.
> 
> If we created a new DLB thread with 0 views and a new "The Reasons I Adore my HR20/1" with 0 views, by next year the "Adore" thread would outnumber the "DLB" thread by 5:1. Let's do that.
> 
> BJ


There's already a thread like that. (Whats Your Favorite Features Of The HR20/21) It was started yesterday. The last post on it was 2 hours ago. It's already been pushed off the front page. There's another thread started yesterday called "So not happy with HR 21-700". It has more posts and more views than the "Favorite Feature" post.

To answer your question. I, like just about every other person on this board(including YOU), have no idea why DirecTV didn't include DLB. We can all guess but that's all it will be, a guess.

Furthermore, do you know why this thread was created and put at the top? Let me tell you. It was done because the front page of the board was getting over loaded with "How do I get to the other tuner?" threads. It cleaned up the board and made it more manageable.


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> What is the difference between two LIVE buffers constantly recording something, vs two LIVE Recordings at one time?
> 
> It would be the same two tuners.
> It would be the same two data streams.
> It would be the same two simultaneous writing activities to the drive.
> 
> And since you can still access both streams while recording, what really is the difference from a technical level implementation, that would put that much mroe strain on the system regardless if it is a buffer or recording?


Can't argue that logic, but it's a matter of percentages.

Mr. & Mrs. DirecTV America find themselves recording two shows simultaneously, what, once or twice a week? Maybe 4 hours a week of two tuner overlap?

With DLB active, that's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 168 hours of processor strain each week, 8,736 hours a year, always taxing, always spinning, always working.

In it's day, the HR10 was a rich man's plaything. The HD afficianado's dream set top box. Cost a month's takehome pay for the average American. The HR20, well, it's for the masses. D* has moved from the BMW crowd to the Camry crowd and they're designing it to be as stable and bulletproof as possible. Keep defectives to a minimum, keep customers happy, no phone calls, no house calls, nice and reliable. I'm far from a computer engineer, but seems to me that cutting the workload of the box in half is a nice way of keeping my mom from having a breakdown, calling D*, and considering FIOS instead.

BJ


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> I hear you on that......
> 
> That's the problem that it creates for the newbs and lurkers too. Looks like its a really big deal to everyone when it's really not.
> 
> BJ


Speaking of percentages...

It's a "must have" to 5% of ALL the members of DBSTalk.com. That's a significant number.


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> I hear you on that......
> 
> Question though, on other boards that have threads that get to a very long length and view count, I've seen them closed and re-opened so as to make the board faster and make them look less important to the newbs. That's my biggest concern here. I was an HR20 newb a short while ago and was very much on the fence to jump from the HR10 to the HR20 only because I was fed so much misinformation and mispeception over on the Tivo board. The HR20 is such a great machine that I'd hate to think that we're creating a similar anti-HR20 perception to newbs and lurkers accidentally.
> 
> BJ


1. This ISN'T the TiVo board. Seriously, what would you expect on a board totally devoted to TiVo? 
2. It sounds like you're problem isn't with this thread or people griping about problems with DirecTV's DVR's, but with a lack of decision-making ability and self-confidence. Its great to do research on products you're interested in on boards, but to base that decision solely on OTHER people's opinions, especially when negative, is not a smart move. Cowboy up and take a leap! :nono2:


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> Speaking of percentages...
> 
> It's a "must have" to 5% of ALL the members of DBSTalk.com. That's a significant number.


As you yourself point out, the "I Love My HR20" thread is on page two already. Product related message boards are filled with negative posts from unhappy people, because the happy people really have no reason to voice an opinion. It's a well-known internet phenomenon. Pick a product related message board, it's filled with negativity and complaints from the small fraction of people who are angry with it. The product sells in droves, people love it, but you read about it on its message board and you're led to believe it's a train wreck.

So, what you're _really _pointing out is that only 5% of all the complaining/negative members of DBSTalk.com care about DLB which is statistically insignificant.

And that, dear friends, is Reason #1 why D* didn't bother to include DLB in their first and second editions of their proprietary HD DVR's.

Lack of interest.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> 1. This ISN'T the TiVo board. Seriously, what would you expect on a board totally devoted to TiVo?
> 2. It sounds like you're problem isn't with this thread or people griping about problems with DirecTV's DVR's, but with a lack of decision-making ability and self-confidence. Its great to do research on products you're interested in on boards, but to base that decision solely on OTHER people's opinions, especially when negative, is not a smart move. Cowboy up and take a leap! :nono2:


I just spent two years listening to the complaining about the HR20 over at the Tivo forum and cannot believe that it's followed me here.

An HR10 owner will tell you that the loss of DLB is the biggest reason to stay with the HR10 and avoid the HR20, and then he'll tell you that the Tivo UI is superior to the HR20's too. It's all false and it's all self-serving to a very small fraction of the D* userbase.

If I'm a confused or intimidated HR10 owner or I'm a confused or intimidated HDTV newb considering D* vs. other options, this thread isn't helping me.

The intent of this forum should not be to disuade potential D* customers from joining the best TV delivery service in America. This thread, by its mere existance and dominance atop this board, does just that and it's wrong.

The HR20 is an awesome machine, superior to the HR10 in every way imaginable. But you land here, and you'd believe otherwise. Someone has to stand up and defend the phenomenal HR20. Looks like that person is me.

BJ


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> As you yourself point out, the "I Love My HR20" thread is on page two already. Product related message boards are filled with negative posts from unhappy people, because the happy people really have no reason to voice an opinion. It's a well-known internet phenomenon. Pick a product related message board, it's filled with negativity and complaints from the small fraction of people who are angry with it. The product sells in droves, people love it, but you read about it on its message board and you're led to believe it's a train wreck.
> 
> So, what you're _really _pointing out is that only 5% of all the complaining/negative members of DBSTalk.com care about DLB which is statistically insignificant.
> 
> And that, dear friends, is Reason #1 why D* didn't bother to include DLB in their first and second editions of their proprietary HD DVR's.
> 
> Lack of interest.
> 
> BJ


Are you really that dense or just pretending?

I said ALL members. That includes everyone in the 37 forums on this board. That's DirecTV, Dishnetwork, XM, Sirius, other forms of Satellite tv.

Again, 5% of the TOTAL is a significant number.


----------



## jodyguercio

The HR20 is an awesome machine, superior to the HR10 in every way imaginable. But you land here, and you'd believe otherwise. Someone has to stand up and defend the phenomenal HR20. Looks like that person is me.

BJ[/QUOTE]

I would hardly call it superior in every way......do a search, how many missed recordings on HR20 vs HR10 all due to whatever reason but mainly what most are calling bad guide data or the error 13 ( I never did see what came of that explanation )...that reason alone is how I find it hard to call it superior to the other.....the basic design is to setup a SL or SP what ever you call it and forget about it, not have to check every day and make sure that what you set up is getting recorded.....


----------



## gregjones

beer_geek said:


> Speaking of percentages...
> 
> It's a "must have" to 5% of ALL the members of DBSTalk.com. That's a significant number.


Maybe 5% of the people that voted. Where did you retrieve this statistic?


----------



## beer_geek

gregjones said:


> Maybe 5% of the people that voted. Where did you retrieve this statistic?


Go to the top of the page. Click on Members List. That'll give you the total number of members. Compare that to the number of people who voted "Must Have". You can only vote if you become a member.


----------



## woj027

I personally think that DLB is First Class Luxury that many D* customers never knew about, or used. 

I think that once you use DLB and know what it can do, you wouldn't want to have a system without it. 

For sports fans it is indispensable. You can watch one game, pause, easily switch to another, pause and go back and forth without missing any action. -- Remember "Easily", the "Live TV" or switch tuner function made it easy.

That said, since D* did not provide DLB on the HR20, all I can do is come here and find other souls to share my sorrows. 

I hope that new D* customers, or New DBSTALK members do not get the idea that the HR20 (or for that matter the OTA Free HR21) is a bad receiver. It's just that I've been flying First Class all these years, and now Coach is the only thing available. But it sure beats having to fly in the Cargo hold. (Cable, or Dish)


----------



## MikeR7

OK, I have it all figured out as to why there is no DLB on the HR20/21.

I consider myself just an average somewhat techie person. I got one HR20 in Feb and another one in April. The machines did what I wanted from day one, recorded and played back those recordings, almost flawlessly.

I was aware of the DLB buzz, but as it grew to shouting, I got more interested in what all the shouting was about. It took me a while to understand what was being talked about when DLB was described, but I finally got it. So being a curious guy I decided to get me a HR10-250, which I did off of e-bay. It was delivered and I got it hooked up. It worked very well. It took me awhile to learn how to activate two live buffers on what shows I actually wanted to switch between, but I figured that out finally. Just in time for football season, which was what I understood to be the main benefit of having DLB, switching between games quickly and checking out other games. 

So I sat down in Week 1 to figure out how I wanted to watch football with all my machines. I wanted to watch two games at once, as live a possible for both games. I thought, OK, now if I am going to watch the Vikings as the high priority game, I want them on one tuner. I want to see what the Packers are doing in their game on the second tuner. I set up the other 4 tuners available to record other games. As soon as I realized I was stuck with a 30 minute buffer on the HR10 I decided to forget that and record both games and switch back and forth between the recordings, rather than the live buffer. It really didn't take that much longer, and I knew I wasn't going to miss anything in the Packer game if I stayed on the Viking game too long. So I decided that to heck with this, I am just going to set up my highest two priority games to record on the HR20 downstairs, the next two hightest to record on the HR10 sitting next to it, and the next two on the HR20 upstairs. I then put the next most interesting match up on the H20 which displays on my computer monitor and just glance at that occasionally.

I realize that the DLB afficiandos(sp?) are going to say, well that is not how I want to watch my games. I feel your pain I guess.

Earl says that they decided to design it the way it was for a reason. I think it was because in their research they asked guys like Earl and I who don't use the feature rather than people who used DLB a lot. Did they have a good sample of customers in their research. Who knows? 

As Earl has said they didn't want a TIVO, they wanted a DirecTV™ HR20. This is how they designed it, so that is how it is. I know folks won't like that, but hey that is their choice. They left the cupholders off their machine. If you want cupholders on your machine, you have other options to bring TV to your home. I don't think it is that important a feature to the majority of their customers that they will lose much business to other providers because they don't have DLB. You can be sure if they do, they will design DLB into the next version. I don't think it is going to happen.

Another tid bit. With all these games to watch, I never get them all watched before the next week comes. I record a lot of college games too.

Just my two cents worth as one that had not used a DVR(other than a piece of junk Moxi that Charter let me use for awhile) before last Feb. BTW, I have no idea if the Moxi had DLB or not. In 4 months it never came up as a subject. :lol: 

OK, be kind. Do not flame me. I am just expressing my thoughts based on my experiences the last 9 months. :lol:


----------



## jahgreen

beer_geek said:


> Are you really that dense or just pretending?
> 
> I said ALL members. That includes everyone in the 37 forums on this board. That's DirecTV, Dishnetwork, XM, Sirius, other forms of Satellite tv.
> 
> Again, 5% of the TOTAL is a significant number.


ADVANCE DISCLAIMER: I'd like to have DLB. BUT:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing _statistically _significant can be gleaned from any poll on this board, due to selection bias at many levels.

Therefore whether 5% of DBSTalk members is a "significant" number depends on the eye of the beholder. To DirecTV it's not significant, to you it is.

If you want to persuade me that the demand for DLB is statistically significant, you'd have to hire a polling expert to conduct a random sample of all HR20 owners.


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> _
> 
> An HR10 owner will tell you that the loss of DLB is the biggest reason to stay with the HR10 and avoid the HR20, and then he'll tell you that the Tivo UI is superior to the HR20's too. It's all false and it's all self-serving to a very small fraction of the D* userbase._


No, it's NOT false. The HR20's UI is better, and I'm glad, but DLB is significant and better than NO DLB; therefore, your statement falls.



boltjames said:


> _
> If I'm a confused or intimidated HR10 owner or I'm a confused or intimidated HDTV newb considering D* vs. other options, this thread isn't helping me._


Then stop posting here as an instigator.



boltjames said:


> _
> The HR20 is an awesome machine, superior to the HR10 in every way imaginable. But you land here, and you'd believe otherwise. Someone has to stand up and defend the phenomenal HR20. Looks like that person is me.
> 
> BJ_


No, it's not "superior in every way." The lack of DLB is one area in which it is innately inferior. It may be better in most ways, but not "in every way." Once again your generalizations are incorrect, but that doesn't surprise me.


----------



## Fenway

MikeR7 said:


> Just my two cents worth as one that had not used a DVR(other than a piece of junk Moxi that Charter let me use for awhile) before last Feb. BTW, I have no idea if the Moxi had DLB or not. In 4 months it never came up as a subject. :lol:
> 
> OK, be kind. Do not flame me. I am just expressing my thoughts based on my experiences the last 9 months. :lol:


We are recent converts to D* - coming from Charter and the Moxi box. Yes, the Moxi did have DLB. I don't know about the pause and then switch. What we did was simply switch back and forth between 2 channels, and if something had happened we would rewind. We loved it, but didn't know the proper terminology until I found it on this forum. We also had DLB with Dish a few years back.

I just figured all DVRs had this feature - if I had known that D* didn't have it, we might have made a different choice.


----------



## Lord Vader

Don't tell that to boltjames, because YOU DON'T NEED THAT FEATURE AND YOU WILL LIKE NOT HAVING IT!!!


----------



## woj027

Lord Vader said:


> Don't tell that to boltjames, because YOU DON'T NEED THAT FEATURE AND YOU WILL LIKE NOT HAVING IT!!!


I miss it dearly......so I come here to cry.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> Can't argue that logic, but it's a matter of percentages.
> 
> Mr. & Mrs. DirecTV America find themselves recording two shows simultaneously, what, once or twice a week? Maybe 4 hours a week of two tuner overlap?
> 
> With DLB active, that's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 168 hours of processor strain each week, 8,736 hours a year, always taxing, always spinning, always working.
> 
> BJ


It does buffer both tuners 24/7. You can record from that buffer if you know what channel its on. I have posted in here a couple times and made other threads showing how. The trick is knowing what channel the second tuner/buffer is still on.

Example, find a program that is going to end in a few minutes. Tune to it and record that current show (we'll say its on channel A). Now tune to a different channel (channel B). In a few minutes, the program on channel A will be done recording. Wait another few minutes (or more if you like), then go into Guide, and press record on Channel A. It will start recording from the beginning of that new current program.

So its not really adding any more processing power to perform DLB, because it currently does it. We just can't access it.


----------



## christo76

Mike, (no flame, don't worry)

For me, DLB was found by accident very quickly. Simply pressing down, flipped it to the other tuner, so there was no 'setting up'.

As for game usage. I agree the 30 min buffer COULD be annoying, but I never ran into it much during games. Personally I used it because my 'add' wouldn't let me wait till it built up any buffer. So I would start watching the Packers game, once a commercial started, I paused and pressed 'down', and start watching the Vikings game that was paused at the start. I can then 30-sec skip between plays until a commercial break, then pause and press down again to return to the Pack, where I skip through commercials, and do the same 30-sec skip between plays.

Never get close to the 30-min buffer between commercials. Not too mention the half-time break. I would be able to catch 2 full games in the time of 1, and never have to worry about catching any(many) spoilers.

But, I also didn't have an HR10, just the SD. SO it may be different and more difficult.

I do enjoy the HR20, and now that I have dumped the ST, I have no problems with 2 games. I simply record whatever game(s) I want, then go find other things to do while it builds up some time. Then I watch them later and just make sure I do look at highlights or pop-up scores.



MikeR7 said:


> OK, I have it all figured out as to why there is no DLB on the HR20/21.
> 
> I consider myself just an average somewhat techie person. I got one HR20 in Feb and another one in April. The machines did what I wanted from day one, recorded and played back those recordings, almost flawlessly.
> 
> I was aware of the DLB buzz, but as it grew to shouting, I got more interested in what all the shouting was about. It took me a while to understand what was being talked about when DLB was described, but I finally got it. So being a curious guy I decided to get me a HR10-250, which I did off of e-bay. It was delivered and I got it hooked up. It worked very well. It took me awhile to learn how to activate two live buffers on what shows I actually wanted to switch between, but I figured that out finally. Just in time for football season, which was what I understood to be the main benefit of having DLB, switching between games quickly and checking out other games.
> 
> So I sat down in Week 1 to figure out how I wanted to watch football with all my machines. I wanted to watch two games at once, as live a possible for both games. I thought, OK, now if I am going to watch the Vikings as the high priority game, I want them on one tuner. I want to see what the Packers are doing in their game on the second tuner. I set up the other 4 tuners available to record other games. As soon as I realized I was stuck with a 30 minute buffer on the HR10 I decided to forget that and record both games and switch back and forth between the recordings, rather than the live buffer. It really didn't take that much longer, and I knew I wasn't going to miss anything in the Packer game if I stayed on the Viking game too long. So I decided that to heck with this, I am just going to set up my highest two priority games to record on the HR20 downstairs, the next two hightest to record on the HR10 sitting next to it, and the next two on the HR20 upstairs. I then put the next most interesting match up on the H20 which displays on my computer monitor and just glance at that occasionally.
> 
> I realize that the DLB afficiandos(sp?) are going to say, well that is not how I want to watch my games. I feel your pain I guess.
> 
> Earl says that they decided to design it the way it was for a reason. I think it was because in their research they asked guys like Earl and I who don't use the feature rather than people who used DLB a lot. Did they have a good sample of customers in their research. Who knows?
> 
> As Earl has said they didn't want a TIVO, they wanted a DirecTV™ HR20. This is how they designed it, so that is how it is. I know folks won't like that, but hey that is their choice. They left the cupholders off their machine. If you want cupholders on your machine, you have other options to bring TV to your home. I don't think it is that important a feature to the majority of their customers that they will lose much business to other providers because they don't have DLB. You can be sure if they do, they will design DLB into the next version. I don't think it is going to happen.
> 
> Another tid bit. With all these games to watch, I never get them all watched before the next week comes. I record a lot of college games too.
> 
> Just my two cents worth as one that had not used a DVR(other than a piece of junk Moxi that Charter let me use for awhile) before last Feb. BTW, I have no idea if the Moxi had DLB or not. In 4 months it never came up as a subject. :lol:
> 
> OK, be kind. Do not flame me. I am just expressing my thoughts based on my experiences the last 9 months. :lol:


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> Are you really that dense or just pretending?
> 
> I said ALL members. That includes everyone in the 37 forums on this board. That's DirecTV, Dishnetwork, XM, Sirius, other forms of Satellite tv.
> 
> Again, 5% of the TOTAL is a significant number.


No, it's not.

Internet message board memberships relative to consumer products are 70% angry people, 20% happy people, and 10% newbs who are thinking of buying the product and have no point of view yet.

5% of an audience skewed heavily towards complainers, ex-Tivo lovers forced to the dark side by content, video afficianado's, and hacker/modders is a ridiculously small amount of the total HR20 population. It completely supports my position too, so keep bringing it up.

Your HR10 angst is clouding your judgement of the obvious. The HR20 is not designed for _you_. It's designed for Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock. Those people, _them_, _those _people, they're the reason your beloved DLB isn't included in the D* DVR strategy. Those people just want to hit "guide" and watch a show in HD or hit "record" and watch that show later. D* is catering to _them _now, not you. Tweaky is out, mass is in, and you've got to grasp that. You've been asked by BMW to enjoy your Camry. Sorry.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Don't tell that to boltjames, because YOU DON'T NEED THAT FEATURE AND YOU WILL LIKE NOT HAVING IT!!!


LOL.

I think I've finally figured you guys out. You went from a $1000 HR10 designed for the tweaky videophile to a free HR20 designed for Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock and you wonder why you were forgotten.

It's like being upset at Toyota for not building a 300 horsepower twin-turbo Camry with a retractible hardtop that handles like a slotcar in a German factory they don't own.

The D* HD DVR has become commoditized. It's gone from a rich man's plaything to the defacto standard set top box for the "Save $20 per month if you join now!" HD newb.

What you guys want is a step-up, high-end, videophile connessieur D* HD DVR that's designed for you. Unfortunately, like the cellphone industry, you're going to be waiting a long time for that. With the explosion of HDTV's, D* can barely ship enough of its existing HR20/1's to satisfy demand. The iPhone, remember, only came into being when the mobile market was a decade mature and saturated.

Enjoy your Camry. It's not a BMW. D* won't build you a BMW until 2017. I'm truly sorry.

BJ


----------



## beer_geek

jahgreen said:


> ADVANCE DISCLAIMER: I'd like to have DLB. BUT:
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again: nothing _statistically _significant can be gleaned from any poll on this board, due to selection bias at many levels.
> 
> Therefore whether 5% of DBSTalk members is a "significant" number depends on the eye of the beholder. To DirecTV it's not significant, to you it is.
> 
> If you want to persuade me that the demand for DLB is statistically significant, you'd have to hire a polling expert to conduct a random sample of all HR20 owners.


I need to hire a polling expert to ask all of the HR20 owners? Are you serious? I am talking about the membership HERE. Not all DirectTV customers. Not all HR2x owners. I'm talking about the membership HERE. Considering the large number of NON-DirecTV customers at DBSTalk.com, I still say 5% of the total is a significant number.


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> I need to hire a polling expert to ask all of the HR20 owners? Are you serious? I am talking about the membership HERE. Not all DirectTV customers. Not all HR2x owners. I'm talking about the membership HERE. Considering the large number of NON-DirecTV customers at DBSTalk.com, I still say 5% of the total is a significant number.


Look at Page 1 HERE and you'll get a good indication of who the registered users are.

They look something like this:










Again, not just here. On every product based discussion forum. Go to iLounge. You'd think the iPod was the worst product ever designed. Happy people don't post. Mad people do.

BJ


----------



## Rich

How long will this thread be? Pretty well established fact that most people want DLBs. Waste of space, no?


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> _
> I think I've finally figured you guys out._


Actually, you have not.

I like my HR20-700s. A lot. There are many things about it that are better than my HR10-250s, which are still active. However, there are a few things the HR10-250 has that are superior to the HR20s, chief among them DLB. This doesn't mean I like the HR10-250s more; rather it simply means in _certain _ways the HR10-250 is better.



boltjames said:


> _
> I'm truly sorry._
> 
> BJ


*Indeed you are.*


----------



## mutley

First a quick "Thank you"...for clarifying that DLB was NOT available, and for saving me time trying to get it to work. I've been on the phone with DTV today, who tried to imply that it must be "user error" as it works on their system at home!!! (must have the tivo version ;-))

After years of DTivo service I just, yesterday, upgraded to the HR20/21 for HD. While I knew that it would not be as feature rich as the TiVo version, I had at least expected this feature to be a available. This is a must have in my household, and I'm getting grief from the wife who used this feature religiously.

I'm not mad or angry, just disappointed. 

It gets my vote!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> snip
> So, what you're _really _pointing out is that only 5% of all the complaining/negative members of DBSTalk.com care about DLB which is statistically insignificant.
> 
> _And that, dear friends, is Reason #1 why D* didn't bother to include DLB in their first and second editions of their proprietary HD DVR's._
> Lack of interest.
> 
> BJ


I didn't realize you were in on the planning meetings for Directv's DVR+. 

How could you possibly make such a claim?

In all your posts, you state things as if you know them to be fact. You would think with all the crap you've taken in other forums for you posts you would have learned by now. It's why you're allways accused of being a troll.

BTW, you're the only one who thinks this thread is a detrimental to new members. Speaking for myself I like reading about theorys.

IMHO, this sticky is good for those looking to upgrade or have questions after the fact. I have two friends who just assumed the HR20 would have *DLB* and were supprised to find out it doesn't ( both of whom do/will miss *DLB* and they aren't counted in this poll). Having it as a sticky anwser some questions before the get asked.

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Enough...

:backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.


----------



## cygnusloop

mutley said:


> First a quick "Thank you"...for clarifying that DLB was NOT available
> 
> ...I'm not mad or angry, just disappointed.
> 
> It gets my vote!!!


:welcome_s to DBSTalk, mutley!

I feel as you, not mad, just disappointed. I think you will find that, otherwise, the HR20 does the job really well. I love the native output feature. VOD is coming along, and will be a great feature as we move forward. When the network does it right, the new MPEG4 HD channels are stunning. You'll find you miss DLB less and less as time goes by, and who knows, maybe one day....

Again, welcome!


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Enough...
> 
> :backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.


Actually, that's a very good idea. Perhaps a DLB thread where only the poll is available--no posts, just the poll and its results.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames;1305539Your HR10 angst is clouding your judgement of the obvious. The HR20 is not designed for [I said:


> you[/I]. It's designed for Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock. Those people, _them_, _those _people, they're the reason your beloved DLB isn't included in the D* DVR strategy. Those people just want to hit "guide" and watch a show in HD or hit "record" and watch that show later. D* is catering to _them _now, not you. Tweaky is out, mass is in, and you've got to grasp that. You've been asked by BMW to enjoy your Camry. Sorry.
> 
> BJ


I don't agree with that at all. How many of these "Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock" people you refer to have HDTV along with DirecTV and an HR20 DVR? Sure, there are more and more, but not that many yet. If that was how they designed it, first of all, it would be a little easier to use with a better interface and it wouldn't have some of the other advanced feature it does have. Seriously, how many of these people are going to use the Action Channel? Why would they include DirecTV On Demand, which requires a broadband Internet connection?? According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...

All this thread is about is a feature that a lot of people do use and like (not from just former TiVo users, but cable users, etc as well) and why on earth DirecTV is not letting us have it on their newer boxes. As a TiVo user since 1999, I like the HR20 for the most part and like some of the new features it offers. But because I have become dependent on DLB, I just cannot use it as my primary DVR yet. I still have to use my HR10. I would like to switch to it, but I just can't. Hopefully someone at DirecTV will listen, but I'm starting to really worry that they just won't. And that sucks.


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> I didn't realize you were in on the planning meetings for Directv's DVR+.
> 
> How could you possibly make such a claim?
> 
> Mike


I think the evidence supports my claim. D* has done everything possible to make the HR20 a world-class DVR. From robust menu's to quick speed to convenience features, they've made it very easy to use for the typical, non-tech user.

With that much thought and development behind this great device, the only plausible reason that DLB is not an included feature is because not enough people cared about it or used it to begin with. Everything else remotely important was retained from the HR10. Everything else that needed improving was improved over the HR10.

Thus, "lack of interest" on behalf of the end user is the most logical explanation for it not being avaliable anymore. All evidence points to D* caring about its customers. All evidence points to D* taking the time to perfect their DVR. All evidence points to no DLB in the future. 2 + 2 = 4. It's not there because the vast majority of users don't even realize it's gone or never used it in the first place.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

*ToddinVA I don't agree with that at all. How many of these "Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock" people you refer to have HDTV along with DirecTV and an HR20 DVR? Sure, there are more and more, but not that many yet.*

With prices on LCD flat panels falling dramatically in the last 13 months, the paradigm shift away from SDTV is well underway. And, remember, that the D* customer interested in a DVR is most certainly of a wealth level to be among the first to join the HDTV revolution. D* is not cheap. And it's killer app remains NFL Sunday Ticket and with practically every game in HD, D*'s growth has been enormous.

*If that was how they designed it, first of all, it would be a little easier to use with a better interface and it wouldn't have some of the other advanced feature it does have. Seriously, how many of these people are going to use the Action Channel? Why would they include DirecTV On Demand, which requires a broadband Internet connection??*

No different than the millions of cellphones sold in 2002 during its explosive period. All were over-designed with forward-thinking features no one used at the time (cameras, web browsers, MP3 players) and at the same time dumbed down to reduce customer disatisfaction and returns (thick cases, big batteries, big keys).

D* wants these DVR's to last 5+ years. Like a car, their lease payments add up and turn a profit later in the lifecycle. If the HR20 becomes obsolete too quickly, it's a financial problem for D*. So they throw in ports and broadband connectivity on the come, assuming that there might be a need in the future. Better to throw this stuff on now rather than wait until they've got obsolete hardware.

*According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...*

These dolts have iPod's, have cars with personalized keyfob settings, and have their favorite TV channels. Makes sense that they'd offer different users in the house their own minor options like that.

D* wants the HR20 to last a long, long time and they want them to be simple enough for the lowest common denominator to use.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Actually, that's a very good idea. Perhaps a DLB thread where only the poll is available--no posts, just the poll and its results.


Or....

The DLB mission has been accomplished and has failed. Made everyone hear ad nauseum about the obsession, made D* notice that there are people upset, made no difference as another iteration of D*'s HD STB was released without it yet again.

A single closed sticky that says "Dual Tuner Buffers - Not Available On HR20/1 - Click Here" is really all that's needed to make sure that newb's don't start new threads about swapping tuners.

BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

boltjames said:


> the paradigm shift
> BJ


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## beer_geek

Earl Bonovich said:


> Enough...
> 
> :backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.


A poll without the troll sounds like a great idea.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> *According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...*
> 
> These dolts have iPod's, have cars with personalized keyfob settings, and have their favorite TV channels. Makes sense that they'd offer different users in the house their own minor options like that.
> 
> D* wants the HR20 to last a long, long time and they want them to be simple enough for the lowest common denominator to use.
> 
> BJ


I give up. You're undermining your whole argument.


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> _I think the evidence supports my claim._


No it doesn't. Just what planet do you inhabit?



boltjames said:


> _
> D* has done everything possible to make the HR20 a world-class DVR. From robust menu's to quick speed to convenience features, they've made it very easy to use for the typical, non-tech user.
> 
> With that much thought and development behind this great device, the only plausible reason that DLB is not an included feature is because not enough people cared about it or used it to begin with._


Put down the peyote already. How can you say something so wrong when the evidence is quite to the contrary? To those who know what the term DLB means--illustrated by those who visit such forums or who have friends/relatives who do--the overwhelming majority want DLB. Just look at the poll results in this forum alone. For those who don't know what the term "DLB" means--like my parents, for example--when they're told what dual live buffer is and does and how the HR20s don't have the capability, they then agree that it's a feature they miss and want back.

The absence of DLB has nothing to do with not enough people caring about it or not enough people using it. Are you frickin' kidding? Most people used it but just didn't know what the terminology for it was/is.

I wish I had debated you in high school speech and debate, because I'd wipe the floor with your use of rash generalizations, assumptions, and horrible logic.


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Put down the peyote already. How can you say something so wrong when the evidence is quite to the contrary? To those who know what the term DLB means--illustrated by those who visit such forums or who have friends/relatives who do--the overwhelming majority want DLB. Just look at the poll results in this forum alone. For those who don't know what the term "DLB" means--like my parents, for example--when they're told what dual live buffer is and does and how the HR20s don't have the capability, they then agree that it's a feature they miss and want back.
> 
> The absence of DLB has nothing to do with not enough people caring about it or not enough people using it. Are you frickin' kidding? Most people used it but just didn't know what the terminology for it was/is.
> 
> I wish I had debated you in high school speech and debate, because I'd wipe the floor with your use of rash generalizations, assumptions, and horrible logic.


Let's try this again:

1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base.

2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you.

And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.

BJ


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> _
> 
> 1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base._


Wrong. You obviously didn't understand my explanation as to the two types of data sets. No surprise there.



> _
> 2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you._


Wrong again. Yet another generalization and stupid assumption.



> _
> And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.
> 
> BJ_


Wrong again.

Really, you're beginning to bore me with such foolish comments borne of personal opinion and ignorance.

Three strikes you're out, as they say in the world of baseball, and as a veteran NCAA Umpire, my ruling is that your at-bat is finished. Next.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Let's try this again:
> 
> 1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base.
> 
> 2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you.
> 
> And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.
> 
> BJ


First of all, most of us are not here to complain. We're here because we are enthusiasts and want to learn about our new DVR and it's software and to offer suggestions on how to improve it. Second of all, there are over 3,000 just in this one thread that do care. I think that's substantial.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Alright... I have tried to turn the conversation back into something constructive but....

Thread Closed: Till December 7, 2007 ~ 10pm CST
No new DLB threads will be allowed to be opened until that time.
Any and all new DLB threads will be closed with a reference to this thread.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

A message to all those that PMed me about this closing of this thread....
Note: This is not directed at all of you... but those that it is, will know it is.

1) Note my post just before this... the thread was closed to a specific date/time. It is not closed indefinently.

2) You can make certain that when it re-opens, a statement about what the purpose of this thread is...

3) Those of you trying to point the finger at any one particular user... be certain to look where the other three fingers point back at.... as when I read through the last multiple pages of posts... it is not one poster that got heated in this little tiff

4) This closing is *NOT* about the topic of DLB on the DVR+ platform... it is about the way the posters in this thread acted in this thread. And you *ALL* need a wake up call...

This is a DISCUSSION forum.... not a backyard/playground screaming fest.
If you want to CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss the topic, fine.. else... be on your merry way.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The thread has been re-opened.
Keep it on Topic... or it will be closed again... and for good.


----------



## havlicek

I have a theory for the lack of DLB. 

Although the DLB is not specifically covered in the patents assigned to tivo, I wonder if lack of the DLB is part of the contractual agreement between tivo and dtv (that included the continued maint/support, agreement not to sue regarding patent rights, etc.). 

Has this theory been posed and/or shot down yet?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

havlicek said:


> I have a theory for the lack of DLB.
> 
> Although the DLB is not specifically covered in the patents assigned to tivo, I wonder if lack of the DLB is part of the contractual agreement between tivo and dtv (that included the continued maint/support, agreement not to sue regarding patent rights, etc.).
> 
> Has this theory been posed and/or shot down yet?


Shot Down...


----------



## MX727

Here's the deal: 

I sent the letters and received a prompt phone call from Direct. If the 2000+ voters are really serious, then you need to send a respectful, professional letter stating your concerns and let them know that the possibility exists for you to look elsewhere. 

BJ is right that posting on an internet forum doesn't mean much.

If you want a change, spend 15 minutes and a stamp.

One other thing, I did tell the girl when she called that I don't care if the HR20/21 ever gets DLB. I just need assurance that there will be a DLB box in the near future. 

To help those who love the HR20/21 understand: That box doesn't fit my needs and I need to know that something is coming that will.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> Shot Down...


Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.


----------



## General Custer

tiger2005 said:


> Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.


Then will need triple live buffers.

Two tuners=dual liver buffers then Three tuners=triple live buffers


----------



## Que

A must have! 2500 77.26%
Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
Voters: 3236.

Replies- 2,027
Views- 113,872


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.


No box right now is designed with three tuners.... 
So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...

Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB


So, in a nutshell, what is the reason there aren't dual live buffers (in case I've missed it)?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

looter said:


> So, in a nutshell, what is the reason there aren't dual live buffers (in case I've missed it)?


Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
It is as simple as that.


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
> It is as simple as that.


Hmmm... It doesn't have DLB because it doesn't have DLB... hmmm


----------



## Earl Bonovich

looter said:


> Hmmm... It doesn't have DLB because it doesn't have DLB... hmmm


No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.

DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.


----------



## looter

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.
> 
> DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.


Sorry, it just again begs the question: Why?


----------



## Fenway

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.
> 
> DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.


This is where I get confused. And I'm not trying to start anything. DirecTV chose not to have DLB in the DVR.

Why? Simple question - is there a simple answer?


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> A must have! 2500 77.26%
> Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
> Voters: 3236.
> 
> Replies- 2,027
> Views- 113,872


Please note that in the two weeks since this thread was closed, only 1 post on the board was made regarding DLB and it was made by _you_, yesterday. As I speculated weeks ago, this is a non-issue for most owners and the lobbying for it has run its course.

BJ


----------



## crmlht00

Earl Bonovich said:


> No box right now is designed with three tuners....
> So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...
> 
> Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.
> 
> And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB


Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.

IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.


----------



## boltjames

Fenway said:


> This is where I get confused. And I'm not trying to start anything. DirecTV chose not to have DLB in the DVR.
> 
> Why? Simple question - is there a simple answer?


I think the simple answer is "because no one seems to care that it's not there".

All the other essentials are featured in the HR20, and many more new ones were added. We know that D* cares about its member base, and this feature is not there. Their actions answer the question.

BJ


----------



## looter

boltjames said:


> Please note that in the two weeks since this thread was closed, only 1 post on the board was made regarding DLB and it was made by _you_, yesterday. As I speculated weeks ago, this is a non-issue for most owners and the lobbying for it has run its course.
> 
> BJ


If it doesn't matter to you please move on. No need for personal attacks. This is a forum for discussing DBS.

Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.


----------



## crmlht00

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.
> 
> DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.


Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB[/QUOTE]

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.

IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.


----------



## crmlht00

boltjames said:


> I think the simple answer is "because no one seems to care that it's not there".
> 
> All the other essentials are featured in the HR20, and many more new ones were added. We know that D* cares about its member base, and this feature is not there. Their actions answer the question.
> 
> BJ


nobody cares it not there ? are you insane, you must be blind


----------



## crmlht00

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
> It is as simple as that.


Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB[/QUOTE]

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.

IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.


----------



## boltjames

crmlht00 said:


> IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier, because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.


That's an unfair generalization on many levels.

First, this theory of "giving us what we want". You need to look at the "us" and the "we" very carefully. There are millions of D* subscribers. I see a fraction of a fraction posting and reposting using some internet poll as a flag to wave. I see no mass outrage, I see no online movement, I see no blogs, I see no news articles.

Next, DLB was a so-called 'feature' on the HR10 for years and barely anyone knew it was there. That 2% that did know it was there, well, looks like some of you loved it. But the other 98% don't miss it because they never used it.

Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

crmlht00 said:


> nobody cares it not there ? are you insane, you must be blind


Lose the personal attacks. We don't want this thread closed.

There are millions of D* users and this matters to a very small fraction. You need no further proof than this:

1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?

2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?

3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?

Remember that old saying "if it walks like a duck and talks like duck, then it's a duck"? What you see is company that cares passionately about making the gold-standard DVR for its customers, yet they don't care at all about DLB. It's a "duck".

BJ


----------



## crmlht00

boltjames said:


> That's an unfair generalization on many levels.
> 
> First, this theory of "giving us what we want". You need to look at the "us" and the "we" very carefully. There are millions of D* subscribers. I see a fraction of a fraction posting and reposting using some internet poll as a flag to wave. I see no mass outrage, I see no online movement, I see no blogs, I see no news articles.
> 
> Next, DLB was a so-called 'feature' on the HR10 for years and barely anyone knew it was there. That 2% that did know it was there, well, looks like some of you loved it. But the other 98% don't miss it because they never used it.
> 
> Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.
> 
> BJ


wrong, the reason their is no mass outarge of the generla directv users, is because 99.9% of directv users and the public at large are sheep.

they do whatever someone tells them to do and do not complain and do not press an issue about lack of features or whenever they get cheated

you notice directv went to this board to improve the dvd, and if they cared what we wanted, they'd add dlb or similar feature (notice they went to the slim majority of directv subscribers to fix the dvr for the other masses, and that slim amount also want LB, yet directv balks, proving they do not care what we want in extra features, (they stuff they have added cause of this forum has not been "features" but added nuances to existing things on the dvr

a major difference ... i have a feeling the suer small miority within the minority of who is on this board have got directv's ear and made them think we do not want DLb despite how the vote has gone,

in otherwords a few here has wrongly decided for the masses, and we get cheated


----------



## crmlht00

boltjames said:


> Lose the personal attacks. We don't want this thread closed.
> 
> There are millions of D* users and this matters to a very small fraction. You need no further proof than this:
> 
> 1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?
> 
> 2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?
> 
> 3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?
> 
> Remember that old saying "if it walks like a duck and talks like duck, then it's a duck"? What you see is company that cares passionately about making the gold-standard DVR for its customers, yet they don't care at all about DLB. It's a "duck".
> 
> BJ


it was not a personal attack, it was stating a fact based on your belief you posted, i never insulted you in general, just wondered where your mind was about the 1 specific thing you posted

if you notice, yes they have added features that were not on the hr10 (the ones they would noy allow tivo to add to it) for the dvr+ , and have ignored tremendous functionality the hr10 has, a real search capability, a real saved list etc /////

and the dvr+ lacks real parental controls, no way for us to block out ANY channel we decide from being punched in manually on remote


----------



## Fenway

boltjames said:


> 1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?
> 
> 2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?
> 
> 3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?
> 
> BJ


That's the simple question I would like answered - *WHY?*

Why not have DLB?

WHY?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

crmlht00 said:


> Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want
> 
> OR
> 
> The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)
> 
> that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.
> 
> IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr
> 
> and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,
> 
> because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.


1) The poll doesn't prove that... all it proves is that a population of the user set, that frequents this forum... wants DLB... It does not "prove" the masses want it.

And actually they are not going out of their way at all, to not include something that was never there.....

2) There is no "tripple" tuner HR22 on the horizon... or as far as I know even remotely planned.


----------



## Lord Vader

bolt, your sanctimony and illogical generalizations and assumptions are what led to the responses that got this thread temporarily closed. I'd suggest you remove yourself from this thread permemently, for you are a lone voice in a vast wilderness.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Fenway said:


> That's the simple question I would like answered - *WHY?*
> 
> Why not have DLB?
> 
> WHY?


Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
That is the WHY...

As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.


----------



## boltjames

crmlht00 said:


> wrong, the reason their is no mass outarge of the generla directv users, is because 99.9% of directv users and the public at large are sheep.
> 
> they do whatever someone tells them to do and do not complain and do not press an issue about lack of features or whenever they get cheated


Exactly my point. "No one cares". Right?

The HR10 was originally $999.00 for the very wealthy tech customer. No different than Motorola's Startac back in the day. The HR20 is a different animal, a "free" DVR for Mr. & Mrs. Camry.

The HR20 is designed to get D* millions and millions more consumers and to be rock solid so as to not need replacing or experience costly housecalls. Somewhere on some whiteboard in D* headquarters, they looked at user data and telephone polls and came to the conclusion that Mr. & Mrs. Camry want faster guides, easier recording, bigger fonts, simple by-event menus, and better picture quality.

D*'s DVR isn't a wealthy man's plaything anymore. It's a mass product to take D* to the next level. My Startac had a couple of fun features that my KRZR lacks, but on the whole, my KRZR is a far better phone. You lose 1 measely thing, you pick up 20 better things. Evolution.

Instead of going round in circles all weekend, please, see the forest through the trees: D* can execute DLB and chose not to. If it were important, it would be there. It's not there. Therefore, it's not important.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> bolt, your sanctimony and illogical generalizations and assumptions are what led to the responses that got this thread temporarily closed. I'd suggest you remove yourself from this thread permemently, for you are a lone voice in a vast wilderness.


No, quite the opposite.

I am the lone rational voice in a sea of emotional lobbying. Besides, this thread dies every time I leave it and I'm actually helping bring attention to your cause by being the voice of reason and getting dialog flowing.

Yes, some of my supportive theories may not have been on the mark (advertising pressure around commercials, processor strain, etc.) but big-picture my thesis cannot be denied:

No one cares except for a few power-users who have found their way to this forum. If there was mass outrage or a legitimate push for this feature, D* would have acted upon it already. They haven't. That should answer your question.

BJ


----------



## looter

boltjames said:


> No, quite the opposite.
> 
> I am the lone rational voice in a sea of emotional lobbying. Besides, this thread dies every time I leave it and I'm actually helping bring attention to your cause by being the voice of reason and getting dialog flowing.BJ


If you believe your own b.s. leave and let it die.

"Rational voice" is not what I would describe here.

Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.


----------



## boltjames

looter said:


> Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.


That's not in the spirit of community that DBS is known for. I'll start a thread entitled "Sony HDTV's Are The Best And If You Don't Own One You Suck". Let's see how far _that _gets me. I adore the HR20 and feel compelled to defend it when it's being wronged. That's no crime.

This isn't The Dual Buffer Fan Club. It's a discussion forum. I'm not being rude or obnoxious. I'm just speaking the truth which, apparently, you don't want to hear. I'm sorry for that just like I'm sorry that you cannot accept the two dozen new innovations in the HR20 as a good tradeoff to the loss of the one feature you miss.

BJ


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl Bonovich said:


> No box right now is designed with three tuners....


I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?

Thanks


----------



## Rich

Earl Bonovich said:


> No box right now is designed with three tuners....
> So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...
> 
> Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.
> 
> And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB


This is like having Herpes, it just keeps coming back. I thought you put this to rest.

Rich


----------



## Tom Robertson

There are other logical states beyond: 1) DIRECTV doesn't listen to us or 2) DIRECTV doesn't want the feature, yada yada.

How about another option (the one they tell me, and I believe them): DIRECTV believes they have features more people will want even more and even sooner than DLB? (That still leaves DLB on the "eventual" roadmap, just farther down the road, btw, tho that is my hope, not something that has been said.)

Product Management is an interesting combination of marketing, research, and gut feel, innovation, and education. I do wish for DLB, very much as is likely noticable. 

I'm interested in the other features coming down the road too. 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?
> 
> Thanks


I was referring to DirecTV products.


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> No, quite the opposite.


Hardly. I call it delusions of grandeur.


----------



## mtnsackett

theratpatrol said:


> I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?
> 
> Thanks


the only way with a D* reciever to record 3 things at once is to record two shows via sat signal and Download one over the internet with the HR20 or HR21 if it is available on that recever. no other irds have the Directv on Demand feature


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.
> 
> BJ


If it came to that, I'd give up some of those extra new features just to get back DLB. My HR10's power supply went bad last weekend and I lived without my HR10 and solely with my HR20 for a week before I got my replacement power supply in. I just flat out cannot live with DLB. My TiVo is now fixed and all if right with the world again. The HR20 will be my secondary DVR until my HR10 is pulled from my cold dead hands or when they implement DLB on the HR20! Period.


----------



## sshams95

theratpatrol said:


> I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?
> 
> Thanks


Yes you can....and it also has DLB & PIP.


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) The poll doesn't prove that... all it proves is that a population of the user set, that frequents this forum... wants DLB... It does not "prove" the masses want it.


well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...

about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...


----------



## ub1934

Tom Robertson said:


> There are other logical states beyond: 1) DIRECTV doesn't listen to us or 2) DIRECTV doesn't want the feature, yada yada.
> 
> How about another option (the one they tell me, and I believe them): DIRECTV believes they have features more people will want even more and even sooner than DLB? (That still leaves DLB on the "eventual" roadmap, just farther down the road, btw, tho that is my hope, not something that has been said.)
> 
> Product Management is an interesting combination of marketing, research, and gut feel, innovation, and education. I do wish for DLB, very much as is likely noticable.
> 
> I'm interested in the other features coming down the road too.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


If they won't give us DLB how about a SLB that works ??


----------



## Fenway

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
> That is the WHY...
> 
> As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.


See, that is what I do not understand. I can understand that they chose not to do so, for some reason. What I can't understand is why they chose not to inform the customer base of the reasons for that choice.

Apparently you do know the why and wherefore, at least that is what I have gathered from some of your comments. Why are the rest of us not privy to the same information?


----------



## Que

For all the anti-DLB, what would it hurt if DirecTV gets DLB on it's new DVRs? This is feature that we love and use daily. Heck DirecTV introduce me to my first DVR, a Hughes box. We love it so much I bought another one for the bedroom. Then when I bought a HD TV, I bought a HR10. This was close when the HR20 was going to come out. Told them I wanted to upgrade right when it was release. They added in the notes a nice deal for me to upgrade to it and I bought the HR10. All my DVRs (3) that I received from DirecTV have DLB and a pause point that holds it. 

Now I’m not talking bad about any of there own DVRs(+). They are getting better but, for me they just need those two options that I use daily for me to upgrade. I’m sure with time it will get were it needs to be. I can only hope it is before they turn off my HR10 and goes MPEG4 only. If not my choice are Charter (very bad customer service, long wait for a box) or Dish. Don’t really know that much about Dish. Most of my buddies have Charter or DirecTV. I really don’t want to go anywhere I am happy with DirecTV. I have been with them since 1998. Their customer service has always been great. That why I hope I can stay with them. 

The 2508 people that voted “a must have” just wanted this option on DirecTV’s new DVR. What does it hurt if someone makes a poll about options they want? I still think the best way is to send a letter to DIRECTV, Inc about DLB. DirecTV does have a great DVR line, they just need to add the options that most of us are using/missing daily.


----------



## puffnstuff

Fenway said:


> See, that is what I do not understand. I can understand that they chose not to do so, for some reason. What I can't understand is why they chose not to inform the customer base of the reasons for that choice.
> 
> Apparently you do know the why and wherefore, at least that is what I have gathered from some of your comments. Why are the rest of us not privy to the same information?


I guess we don't deserve one . I have been waiting for over a year now and have been told everything from they are working on it ( from Earl ) to it already works (csr) to never ever going to happen . I just want to know why , come on Earl you said we would eventually know why . Well when will that be ? probably when the HR 4000 comes out . Enough is enough just tell us !


----------



## boltjames

*Que For all the anti-DLB, what would it hurt if DirecTV gets DLB on it's new DVRs? This is feature that we love and use daily. *

No hurt at all. It's not the request for DLB that's an issue. It's the level of attention that a few peole are getting for a very minor feature that's an issue. For newb's coming to DBS, they see this thread with 100,000+ views and they perceive that there's a major flaw in the HR20 when there isn't.

*Heck DirecTV introduce me to my first DVR, a Hughes box. We love it so much I bought another one for the bedroom. *

I didn't realize until this very moment that you don't own an HR20. I can see now what we're dealing with here. Don't you belong over on the Tivo forums? That's where this conversation really needs to take place.

*The 2508 people that voted "a must have" just wanted this option on DirecTV's new DVR. *

My understanding is that there are millions of D* DVR's in circulation. 2500 "yes" votes in discussion forum is still statistically insignificant. And, methinks, the fact that the poll starter doesn't even own an HR20 leads me to believe that a great majority of those 2500 don't own an HR20 either. They're just grumpy HR10 owners and Tivo lovers looking for a new audience now that Tivo forums is all but dead.

*What does it hurt if someone makes a poll about options they want? *

Again, nothing. But Earl was on the right track. This thread was closed for 2 weeks and not a single thread was started asking about DLB, leading one to believe that this thread, closed, with its page count reset to 1, with a simple statement about "two tuner buffering is not available at this time on the HR20" is all that's needed.

The pro-DLB people have three agendas, and two of them are not good for the community:

1. Let newbs know that DLB isn't available on the HR20 and that D* has been informed of requests for it. That's good. Sticky with page count of 1 is enough.

2. Let's D* know there are people who are upset and want this matter considered strongly. That's bad. They know. It's overkill at this point. Bumping a distorted poll every week when 6 more people vote. And it's turned into...

3. Whining. Endless whining about D* and questioning the intentions of D* and challenging the priorities of D* and ignoring the positives in the HR20 from D*. That's bad. All that does is make newbs reconsider D* as a service option and make confused HR10 owners even more confused about jumping to the HR20.

*I still think the best way is to send a letter to DIRECTV, Inc about DLB. DirecTV does have a great DVR line, they just need to add the options that most of us are using/missing daily.*

If DLB was a feature that "most of us were using/missing daily" it would be on the HR20 already. It's a niche feature that was so underutilized and so unimportant that D* themselves took it off the list.

Listen, big picture here, this agenda of building up a thread count to get D*'s attention is unneccessary at this point and all this thread does is cause newbs to be confused or disuaded towards D*. And on this point I _am _an expert; I held onto my HR10 for way too long because of all the propoganda over at Tivo forums and all the misinformation and misperception over here at DBS. A D* newb or an HR10 user lands here and it feels like Tivo forums to that person. Some of this we can't control- all product related message boards have their share of "my product doesn't work" negativism on page one. But this particular thread we _can _control, and this "I miss my Tivo, boo hoo" attitude displayed so prominently atop the board as a sticky with 100k views no less, well, that does an injustice to the purpose of this forum. It causes more confusion than it does good. You wanted D*'s attention, you got D*'s attention and they still don't care enough to add the feature.

I find it quite ironic and unacceptable that the biggest thread on the forum is created and continually bumped by someone who doesn't even own the very product he's posting about.

The thread was closed for two weeks and no one cared to even ask about the feature. D* knows your plight. Enough. Set the thread count to 1, close this, and let's stop helping those who are holding onto their HR10's needlessly have such a visible platform to condemn the great HR20.

BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

As a favor to those of us who have put BJ on our ignore lists, for those of you who have not yet done so, it would be nice if you did not quote him in your responses.

Sort of defeats the purpose of "ignoring" him.

To those of you who still like to read his posts, you have no idea how _nice_ it is not to see them. Try the ignore function. It works beautifully. BJ has already posted his opinions many times over. He is just rehashing the same old same old, over and over again. You won't be missing anything.


----------



## sshams95

ShiningBengal said:


> As a favor to those of us who have put BJ on our ignore lists, for those of you who have not yet done so, it would be nice if you did not quote him in your responses.
> 
> Sort of defeats the purpose of "ignoring" him.
> 
> To those of you who still like to read his posts, you have no idea how _nice_ it is not to see them. Try the ignore function. It works beautifully. BJ has already posted his opinions many times over. He is just rehashing the same old same old, over and over again. You won't be missing anything.


Amen.


----------



## Lord Vader

If everybody adds him to their ignore list, then it would be like he's talking to himself. 

How refreshing!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Boltjames,

What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine?  (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?) 

As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)

One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.

So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.

Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB. 

So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it. Otherwise, please keep things clean.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom,

I echo your father's reaction. My parents have both an HR20-700 and an HR10-250. Same thing for my brother. Neither of those two households really knows what the term "Dual Live Buffer" is; however, when I explain or show them what DLB does, they then know; and they love it! Both my brother and parents use it all the time, especially when watching sports. They've perfected the art of pausing, switching tuners, etc.

When they use their HR20s, a unit they _do _ like, their single biggest complaint is the lack of DLB, or as they say it, "no second tuner." (Slightly inaccurate, but you get my point.)


----------



## dwlevy

Every so often when I check this thread, the passion level amazes me. I think it's great, however I think it causes people to miss a crucial point.

Before I throw my 2 cents in, let me preface this by saying I am a huge DLB proponent. I still utilize my HR10-250 for OTA HD in great part because of the HR20's lack of DLB. I think the lack of DLB is an omission that will keep the HR20s from ever being a truly great product.

That said, DirecTV is a business geared toward being profitable. To do that it has to balance costs versus returns on investment. I think that the only logical explanation for the lack of DLB in the HR20s is that those responsible for its development have determined that the benefit of that feature -- as of now -- does not justify the expense of implementing it properly.

At the beginning of the HR20's development cycle, that may have not been the case. Perhaps some knucklehead without any real experience with a DVR utilizing DLB determined it wasn't important. But now, if that was even true, I can't believe that they really feel that way. I think it is now more about economics. Rewriting and adding the necessary programming code and then QCing it can't be cheap. I'm sure when all of the other features they feel are more economically feasible to implement are running properly, they'll revisit adding DLB.

At least that's my hope.


----------



## ShiningBengal

dwlevy said:


> Every so often when I check this thread, the passion level amazes me. I think it's great, however I think it causes people to miss a crucial point.
> 
> Before I throw my 2 cents in, let me preface this by saying I am a huge DLB proponent. I still utilize my HR10-250 for OTA HD in great part because of the HR20's lack of DLB. I think the lack of DLB is an omission that will keep the HR20s from ever being a truly great product.
> 
> That said, DirecTV is a business geared toward being profitable. To do that it has to balance costs versus returns on investment. I think that the only logical explanation for the lack of DLB in the HR20s is that those responsible for its development have determined that the benefit of that feature -- as of now -- does not justify the expense of implementing it properly.
> 
> At the beginning of the HR20's development cycle, that may have not been the case. Perhaps some knucklehead without any real experience with a DVR utilizing DLB determined it wasn't important. But now, if that was even true, I can't believe that they really feel that way. I think it is now more about economics. Rewriting and adding the necessary programming code and then QCing it can't be cheap. I'm sure when all of the other features they feel are more economically feasible to implement are running properly, they'll revisit adding DLB.
> 
> At least that's my hope.


Any new design should begin with a blank sheet of paper, if they are to improve upon the design of an existing product. An analysis should be performed noting what is essential, what is good and worthy of emulation, and what is not so good.

The only explanation for DLB's lack in the HR20 is that the consensus (unfortunately committees don't have a very good track record in coming up with good design) was that DLB wasn't important.

No one bothered to do a market analysis to find what people liked in the preceding product, and what was lacking. Instead they came up with (IMHO) really stupid ideas like VOD which has no place in a DVR. It isn't "on demand" since you have to wait in some cases hours for programs to download. If you don't have access to a fast broadband connection, you are basically out of luck.

I believe that the mistaken notion that the new HR20 needed VOD to compete with cable is what scotched DLB. DirecTV will probably never come out and admit to it, but it seems obvious.

Although it is still officially "Beta" software, I don't think many are going to find it a compelling reason to come to DirecTV. In order to get it to work, they had to compress the hell out of the programs resulting in a picture so soft that it isn't even comparable to standard definition.

The price of DLB was VOD. And that' why we won't get DLB until and unless DirecTV figures out that VOD is a turkey.


----------



## poppo

anubys said:


> well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...
> 
> about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...


The other hole is that the people voting that it is as must are mostly those who had it before with Tivo and have migrated over to this forum. So IMO the sample group is somewhat biased. Ask 3000 people who never had it before and most would probably not even care especially since there is such an easy work around.


----------



## Lord Vader

But explain to people what it is and how it works and I'd bet the farm that they'd prefer it over not having it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

poppo said:


> The other hole is that the people voting that it is as must are mostly those who had it before with Tivo and have migrated over to this forum. So IMO the sample group is somewhat biased. Ask 3000 people who never had it before and most would probably not even care especially since there is such an easy work around.


As I've stated before, none of the workarounds apply to my use. So I'll have to keep hoping for the real thing. 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

ToddinVA said:


> If it came to that, I'd give up some of those extra new features just to get back DLB. My HR10's power supply went bad last weekend and I lived without my HR10 and solely with my HR20 for a week before I got my replacement power supply in. I just flat out cannot live with DLB. My TiVo is now fixed and all if right with the world again. The HR20 will be my secondary DVR until my HR10 is pulled from my cold dead hands or when they implement DLB on the HR20! Period.


I like DLB, don't get me wrong. But I can only justify using it during sports programing. Am I the only one that see DLB as only a benefit to sports, especially during playoffs... Of course me pointing this out, DirecTV being the sports leader, you would think they would bring this into the HR20 within the next few months...

I will say I much prefer the HR20 and would rather gain all of its capabilities at the loss of DLB, if thats the reality, but I have some hope for DLB...


----------



## ToddinVA

inkahauts said:


> I like DLB, don't get me wrong. But I can only justify using it during sports programing. Am I the only one that see DLB as only a benefit to sports, especially during playoffs... Of course me pointing this out, DirecTV being the sports leader, you would think they would bring this into the HR20 within the next few months...
> 
> I will say I much prefer the HR20 and would rather gain all of its capabilities at the loss of DLB, if thats the reality, but I have some hope for DLB...


I actually use DLB for news/business programs more than anything else. :lol:


----------



## jheda

God bless you Tom, and God bless the BJ ignore list....


Tom Robertson said:


> Boltjames,
> 
> What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine?  (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?)
> 
> As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)
> 
> One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.
> 
> So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.
> 
> Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB.
> 
> So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it. Otherwise, please keep things clean.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


----------



## poppo

Lord Vader said:


> But explain to people what it is and how it works and I'd bet the farm that they'd prefer it over not having it.


Perhaps they would vote that it would be ok. But I doubt most would call it a must have. I've owned Tivos for many years and never once had the need for it. But then again, I'm not a sports nut and I use my DVRs as DVRs and not to watch live TV.


----------



## beer_geek

I completely agree with the ignore list. However, what do you do when the wing nut flat out lies like he did in his post on 12/8 at 03:27 PM?


----------



## jheda

cant tell u, its ignored    



beer_geek said:


> I completely agree with the ignore list. However, what do you do when the wing nut flat out lies like he did in his post on 12/8 at 03:27 PM?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Final... LAST WARNING.

Bring the topic back to DLB... or this thread will be closed for good.
REPORT THE POSTs so they can be reviewed by the staff.


----------



## kanderna

Earl Bonovich said:


> Final... LAST WARNING.
> 
> Bring the topic back to DLB... or this thread will be closed for good.
> REPORT THE POSTs so they can be reviewed by the staff.


I like DLB. It is good.


----------



## Fenway

Earl Bonovich said:


> Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
> That is the WHY...
> 
> As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.


Why can't that answer be given? I keep hanging around in this topic hoping that one day you will tell us the reasoning. And it seems that you are the only one here who is privy to the information.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Fenway said:


> Why can't that answer be given? I keep hanging around in this topic hoping that one day you will tell us the reasoning. And it seems that you are the only one here who is privy to the information.


Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.


----------



## grantyn

I just "upgraded" to the HR21 after 4 years as a TiVo customer, first with a separate Sony Box, then later with the DirecTivo HD DVR.

I really would like to return it. The lack of DLB is a deal buster. Its archaic menu structure is stupid. Having to unlock a channel every time I switch away from it and come back is more than annoying. Where's the OTA tuner? The list goes on. And I had to pay for this POS. I'm not sure the added HDTV channels are worth it.

Are there any other options out there? I'm pretty much ready to dump DirecTV after being a customer for 12 years.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

HR21 has no OTA tuner. A solution is planned, but is not available as yet.

"Unlock" a channel every time you switch? Please explain.

There are no other options, except for the HR20 if you must have an OTA tuner today, but everything else would be the same.


----------



## sunking

Earl Bonovich said:


> Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.


Come on Earl, get with the program. When they say stuff like that what they really mean is 'leak this to the the NY Times'  .


----------



## grantyn

Earl Bonovich said:


> HR21 has no OTA tuner. A solution is planned, but is not available as yet.
> 
> "Unlock" a channel every time you switch? Please explain.
> 
> There are no other options, except for the HR20 if you must have an OTA tuner today, but everything else would be the same.


I want to limit my kid's access to content rated for "mature" audiences. If I do that I have to enter a passcode each time I try to access a channel that is blocked. The DirecTiVo HD DVR would unlock the whole receiver for 4 hours with one passcode entry. I looks like the HR21 has a similar feature, but it's buried in the setup menu. One other issue with the parental lock is that the guide won't show titles of blocked content. What's the point of that? I still want to know what's on and I don't care if the kids see the title as long as they can't watch it.

As far as options were concerned, I wasn't referring to D* equipment or content. I'm talking about dropping D* completely and going to cable or a DBS competitor.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

grantyn said:


> I want to limit my kid's access to content rated for "mature" audiences. If I do that I have to enter a passcode each time I try to access a channel that is blocked. The DirecTiVo HD DVR would unlock the whole receiver for 4 hours with one passcode entry. I looks like the HR21 has a similar feature, but it's buried in the setup menu. One other issue with the parental lock is that the guide won't show titles of blocked content. What's the point of that? I still want to know what's on and I don't care if the kids see the title as long as they can't watch it.
> 
> As far as options were concerned, I wasn't referring to D* equipment or content. I'm talking about dropping D* completely and going to cable or a DBS competitor.


As for the unlock... yes, it has been a request to add the unlock for 4 hours to the pop-up dialog.

As for the blocked title.... there is no perfect solution to that... we have users on here... that WANT the title to be blocked when the parental controls are turned on.


----------



## sunking

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the unlock... yes, it has been a request to add the unlock for 4 hours to the pop-up dialog.
> 
> As for the blocked title.... there is no perfect solution to that... we have users on here... that WANT the title to be blocked when the parental controls are turned on.


Well, the perfect solution is to add the option to block titles to the parental controls section. That was a toughy.


----------



## Splendor

All I want for Christmas is DLB....DLB....DLB....


----------



## looter

ShiningBengal said:


> Try the ignore function. It works beautifully.


Thanks for the tip. That is some technology I can back!

Where's the DLB preference on the HR21?  That would be a great Easter egg.


----------



## jahgreen

anubys said:


> well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...
> 
> about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...


Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?

If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.


----------



## looter

jahgreen said:


> Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?
> 
> If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.


Yeah, it is a poll of DBStalk users. It is that simple.

It shows that many DVR+ owners want DLB.

If the poll results were reversed I doubt anyone would be arguing against using a poll.

The poll results are obvious and don't take much interpreting.


----------



## Doug Brott

looter said:


> Yeah, it is a poll of DBStalk users. It is that simple.
> 
> It shows that many DVR+ owners want DLB.
> 
> If the poll results were reversed I doubt anyone would be arguing against using a poll.
> 
> The poll results are obvious and don't take much interpreting.


I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain


----------



## snork

I'd like to add my opinion (which is mirrored by so many others) that the lack of DLB on the HR20 is just bizarre. Even more bizarre is the apparent fact that the Powers That Be seem to have a reason for it. Most bizarre is that the Powers That Be won't even tell us what that reason is. We sit here scratching our heads trying to make sense of it but there is none. If any rational explanation were had, at least some of us might go "Oh, OK"; the way things stand now is just STUPID.


----------



## prestoru

Doug Brott said:


> I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:
> 
> 
> I already have switch services to get DLBs
> I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
> I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
> I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
> DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
> I really don't care one way or the other
> I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
> I abstain


how about : I would switch if I didn't have the 2 year commitment from getiing a DVR I didn't know lacked DLB. Overwhelming reasons seems to be too vague.


----------



## rapjrhb

Doug Brott said:


> I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:
> 
> 
> I already have switch services to get DLBs
> I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
> I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
> I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
> DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
> I really don't care one way or the other
> I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
> I abstain


Or:

I kept my other DVR so that I can have DLB at times and increased HD content at other times.


----------



## looter

rapjrhb said:


> Or:
> 
> I kept my other DVR so that I can have DLB at times and increased HD content at other times.


Yes. Lack of DLB is the main reason I still have my HR10. That and the lack of OTA on the HR21.

Otherwise, I'd get rid of it and get a 2nd HR21.


----------



## boltjames

*Tom Robertson Boltjames, What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine?  (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?) *

I'd like to think I'm not whining about all the whining but rather pointing out that since this thread has been so played out over the course of a year and a half that it's come down to nothing _but _whining by the pro-DLB faction that it's no longer a useful thread for the forum and should be re-focused to something constructive again.

*As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)*

I try, very hard, to ignore the DLB discussion, but it sits there with 100,000 page views and is as noticable as a gorilla in an anthill. If you're a newb, just got your first HDTV, and you're considering all your programming options and land here to make a decision on D* as a content provider, WHAM, there it is, sitting like a giant pimple on a supermodel's face, the DLB thread.

It makes a newb think there is something dreadfully wrong with the HR20 and that's the crux of my dislike of this thread. Instead of welcoming newbs with great news about how good the HR20 is, this unusually large thread commands too much attention and can make them think the HR20 and D* isn't a good option for them.

*One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.*

I think we're on the same page here. A sample size of 3k can indeed be accurate, but the skewing of this forum towards the hobbiest/hacker/tweaker renders it an incomplete sample. Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what a discussion forum is, let alone find their way here. The poll simply says that a small faction of D* power users are unhappy and that's not enough to move the needle in D*'s mind. Again, I'm told, D* reads this forum often and they know the plight of the DLB user. They still do not make this a priority.

*So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.*

Well, seeing that every D* receiver I've owned since 1999 has had DLB hopping in some form or another including my beloved Sony T-60's I'd think that "tomorrow" is today, no?

*Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB. *

It's something you don't want until you have it and then you take it for granted until its taken away. And when its taken away, that's when it's Decision Time.

And that's my point here: Decision Time is not fairly stated in this thread. There is no equal time for all the great innovations that have been added to D*'s DVR. Instead, its all about the one feature that was taken away. There isn't even a poll option that says "even though DLB is gone and I miss it there is so much more good in the HR20 that I'm going to give D* a pass for not putting DLB in".

*Otherwise, please keep things clean*

If you read this thread in its entirety, I think you'll find that I'm the one defending D* and the HR20 and then am enduring personal attacks to which I do not respond. I think that's pretty "clean".

*So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it. *

It's your show, and you certainly have your one thread, but I think it's post count reset to zero. It's just too noticable up there, screaming to all the newbs "check me out there's a problem here!" and that's not good for anyone.

There were 3 agendas for this thread:

1. Place to inform people that DLB is not part of the new D* DVR and they are aware and so please don't start a new thread.

2. Place for DLB people to talk about their unhappiness. This is now played out.

3. Draw attention to the plight of DLB so that D* will take notice. This has been accomplished.

So, if you really think about it, #1 could be addressed by a closed sticky with the information about "DLB not on the HR20". In fact, in the two weeks that Earl closed the thread, I don't recall a single DLB thread started in the subforum.

#3 has been accomplished and no good can come from another 100k page views.

#2 is all that's left, and that's a sad state for this forum. Not to mention that with the Tivo forums becoming a ghost town, all this thread does is provide a platform for the anti-D* people to complain about D* under the protected shroud of "wishing for DLB". It's a destructive thread masquerading as a constructive thread. It's fille dwith anti-D* agendas and is not good for the newbs.

*Thanks, Tom*

You're the boss, it's your show, and I love DBS. But for the good of all the newbs who come here, this DLB thread should be closed, reset to "0" views, and made a sticky. This would achieve the primary goal of communicating the issue to the community without it continuing as an anti-D* posting opportunity.

And why do I care this much? Well, this hits home for me because I was one of those newbs. I was one of those people who listened to the rhetoric on Tivo forums, was convinced that the UI and the missing DLB was an HR20 killer, and I was shaking in my boots and losing sleep over dropping my HR10. And all that stress caused by all that deliberate miscommunication was completely unneccessary; the HR20 is a fantastic device. We should celebrate what it does, not whine about what it does not.

BJ


----------



## poppo

Doug Brott said:


> Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:
> 
> 
> I already have switch services to get DLBs
> I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
> I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
> I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
> DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
> I really don't care one way or the other
> I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
> I abstain


The choices I would like to see. 

I have used DLBs and it's a must
I have used DLBs and it's not a big deal
I have never used DLBs and I 'think' it's a must (because most here say so and I have no free will)
I have never used DLBs and I don't think it's a big deal since there is an easy work around.


----------



## jheda

Doug

On your poll i would like to vote: I really, really want DLB -, but I'm more excited about other features first! :=)..but i would choose the DLB is nice and I would use it........

If they repair SLB. Ill be one happy camperand would be satisfied without DLB!!!!!


----------



## ub1934

jheda said:


> Doug
> 
> On your poll i would like to vote: I really, really want DLB -, but I'm more excited about other features first! :=)
> 
> If they repair SLB. Ill be one happy camper!!!!!


It still will not be as good as a real DLB .


----------



## Doug Brott

ub1934 said:


> It still will not be as good as a real DLB .


I was a big rebel rouser for DLB last year .. I let go at some point .. meaning I just accepted that it won't be there and moved on .. If DLB shows up, then great .. I'll likely use it. But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.


----------



## jheda

Not quite, agreed, but with SLB only one show will have to be recorded; so we can watch two games at once, not eat up the hard drive and be pretty close, IMHO.


ub1934 said:


> It still will not be as good as a real DLB .


----------



## jheda

Agreed. And if SLB is implimented you will only have to single record.


Doug Brott said:


> I was a big rebel rouser for DLB last year .. I let go at some point .. meaning I just accepted that it won't be there and moved on .. If DLB shows up, then great .. I'll likely use it. But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> Not quite, agreed, but with SLB only one show will have to be recorded; so we can watch two games at once, not eat up the hard drive and be pretty close, IMHO.


That's a good point as well .. a fully fixed SLB will be really close.


----------



## mtnagel

I'd also like to see a new poll as my answer would change from how I voted before.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:
> 
> 
> I already have switch services to get DLBs
> I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
> I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
> I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
> DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
> I really don't care one way or the other
> I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
> I abstain


I really like this idea.

I have a question though....

Should it clarify *DLB* or even call it something else?

Everyone I know with a dual tuner DVR(with *DLB*) knows they can switch between tuners. However, few know it's called *Dual Live Buffers*.

I did research on other DVRs. In those with *DLB* the manual calls it something like "watching two shows at once" or "Simultaneously Watch Two Programs". Heck, at lot with TiVo found it by accident.

Not really sure any of this has any bearing but maybe if we make it as general as possible we may be able to get a more normalized analysis.

We have the numbers for a good sample size. It's just the sample makeup that's in question. Nielson uses ≈10,000 households for the whole country so we should be able to make it work.

Mike


----------



## vankai

MicroBeta said:


> Should it clarify *DLB* or even call it something else?
> 
> Everyone I know with a dual tuner DVR(with *DLB*) knows they can switch between tuners. However, few know it's called *Dual Live Buffers*.
> 
> I did research on other DVRs. In those with *DLB* the manual calls it something like "watching two shows at once" or "Simultaneously Watch Two Programs". Heck, at lot with TiVo found it by accident.
> 
> Not really sure any of this has any bearing but maybe if we make it as general as possible we may be able to get a more normalized analysis.


Dual Live TV 
DLTV ??

Live Toggle TV
LTTV ??

.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

vankai said:


> Dual Live TV
> DLTV ??
> 
> Live Toggle TV
> LTTV ??


Ok, maybe calling it something else wasn't my best idea. :sure:

Although, _Toggle TV_ is alliteratively interesting. 

I do think it needs some further clarification though.

Mike


----------



## General Custer

Earl Bonovich said:


> Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.


The fact that Directv won't let you announce why it is not being implemented means that it is likely a reason that most here would consider ridiculous and unsatisfactory. If they had a good reasonable understandable explanation, they would allow it to be announced in order to calm everyone down.


----------



## poppo

General Custer said:


> The fact that Directv won't let you announce why it is not being implemented means that it is likely a reason that most here would consider ridiculous and unsatisfactory. If they had a good reasonable understandable explanation, they would allow it to be announced in order to calm everyone down.


I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.


----------



## ShiningBengal

poppo said:


> I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.


Of course DirecTV has no obligation to say anything at all. Of course, the fact that they won't say anything is what has led to all the endless speculation and frustration.

My own speculation is that their particular implementation of VOD has made it difficult or impossible to have DLB coexistant on the HR20. I think that letting that cat out of the bag would cause more consternation than saying nothing, because I doubt very much that VOD will ever attract any kind of regular usage.

If indeed this is the case (and I really, really think it is), I can only ask rhetorically, "why in the heck would they give up DLB for this nonsense?"

The "beta" release of VOD is certainly not very impressive, and it kind of begs the question, "WHY?" It isn't true VOD because it isn't "on demand" when it takes hours to download a 30 minute overly compressed less-than-standard definition show. And this is why I have an HDTV display, and an HDTV DVR???? Oh, I see, there will be HDTV in the future. What? To take a day to download a 90 minute HDTV show?

After looking at the offerings and going through the expense and frustration of setting up a wireless ethernet adaptor, I'm kicking myself for wasting the money and time to set it up. I'll never use it.

I doubt very much that DirecTV will ever publicly admit to such folly.


----------



## anubys

jahgreen said:


> Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?
> 
> If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.


sorry that I've been away...I've seen this comment 3-4 times already (also mentioned is the skewing of the sample or that the sample is not random)...

ok...the sample is not scientific (i.e. we did not look at the population of DirecTV customers, select a sample that is representative, and conduct the survey)...a representative sample would have the same proportions of white, black, hispanic...or male/female...etc.

certainly that was not done...

however, non-random/skewed assumes that the survey population has something in it that would make their answer to the survey different from the full population...in this case, the relative tech knowledge is in some way making us say "yes" when most people would say "no" to the same question...bias and skewness only matters when it would introduce an answer different from the norm (e.g. ask only KKK members if they like black people, to make an extreme example)

I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...

thus, you can safely conclude that this answer can give a pretty darn good indication on what the population would answer when given the facts...allowing for sample error, you can be confident that at least two-thirds of the Directv customers would consider DLB a MUST HAVE...


----------



## tiger2005

Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.

1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.

2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.


----------



## ShiningBengal

tiger2005 said:


> Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.
> 
> 1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.
> 
> 2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.


I think it would be very easy for DirecTV to know how many HR10's are in use. Every one of them is addressable via smart card. They could also see how many HR10's are in use in households that have HR20's. If they can't do this, then they really have some major problems in managing their customer account base.


----------



## jheda

Well said; one "anectodal example of a "techie" who does not have a great self use for DLB, is Earl himself. No one can evidence a tech bias for interest in DLB.

I myself found this site as a nontechie looking for answers a year ago as to why i couldnt utilize the dual tuners.

I will say again... if SLB becomes perfected, where we can switch between one show recorded and one show "live" with the buffer holding the pause points on both, allowing to switch between two shows, I myself and many others will be satisfied. I am so happy with the HR20 in every other way.



anubys said:


> sorry that I've been away...I've seen this comment 3-4 times already (also mentioned is the skewing of the sample or that the sample is not random)...
> 
> ok...the sample is not scientific (i.e. we did not look at the population of DirecTV customers, select a sample that is representative, and conduct the survey)...a representative sample would have the same proportions of white, black, hispanic...or male/female...etc.
> 
> certainly that was not done...
> 
> however, non-random/skewed assumes that the survey population has something in it that would make their answer to the survey different from the full population...in this case, the relative tech knowledge is in some way making us say "yes" when most people would say "no" to the same question...bias and skewness only matters when it would introduce an answer different from the norm (e.g. ask only KKK members if they like black people, to make an extreme example)
> 
> I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...
> 
> thus, you can safely conclude that this answer can give a pretty darn good indication on what the population would answer when given the facts...allowing for sample error, you can be confident that at least two-thirds of the Directv customers would consider DLB a MUST HAVE...


----------



## grantyn

Doug Brott said:


> But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.


I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.

Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

tiger2005 said:


> Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.
> 
> 1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.
> 
> 2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.


I agree it's upset most people who use *DLB* (me being one of them).

However, given the choice of *DLB* or an additional 55 HD channels (based on what I have and not counting PPV & out of area RSNs), I think the new HD channel win.

I think any hesitation on the part of HR10 owners will be overcome by the new and upcomming HD channels. It's just a matter of time. 

Mike


----------



## jheda

First and foremost, welcome!!!! Look at our "newbie" welcome thread. Also see our tips and tricks thread if you havent to date. Lastly, if you havent already and are enjoying our site, join the club and support it for a mere $15!!!

To answer your question, i will do it in comparison to my directtivo, and leave out the HD part as you have mentioned it...

1) much faster guide
2) while viewing guide "picture in guide" .. i love that...
3) one button recording in the guide, for one show or season
4)easier menu acess
5) blue single line guide on bottom screeen

just a few. Ill let others add...

and again welcome!!



grantyn said:


> I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.
> 
> Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.


----------



## poppo

anubys said:


> I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...


Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.



tiger2005 said:


> Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.
> 
> 1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset.


It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>


----------



## Lord Vader

poppo said:


> Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.
> 
> It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>


Your post contradicts itself. How can those who have never had a DVR before even _*know*_ what the workaround is. They'd have no knowledge of (a) how to use two tuners, (b) what a workaround even is, and (c) how to implement it.


----------



## anubys

poppo said:


> Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.


no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...


----------



## Doug Brott

As for it being a "must have" clearly, if that were the case, then the discussion would already be over .. Those who "must have" it will have moved on to another discussion area because they would no longer be with DIRECTV or would be using different hardware.

Certainly there are reasons to stay .. commitment term, HD, NFLST, etc. and those reasons outweigh the "must have" aspect of DLB. That said, clearly a number of people really, really want the feature .. There are some workarounds that really are not too bad (SLB getting fixed will make it even better), but I understand the issues with that .. bottom line is that if you take control of your viewing (what you can do) and adapt it really does become more enjoyable.

If DLB ever does make it in to the HR20 .. well, that would be icing on the cake at that point, right?


----------



## say-what

anubys said:


> no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...


Unfortunately, this poll is not made up of random DirecTV customers and really can't be extrapolated to the overall DirecTV customer base.

I've used DLB on my DirecTIVO's, but don't consider it a "must have" feature and certainly don't miss it on the HR20/21.


----------



## General Custer

poppo said:


> I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.


I didn't say that they had to annouce the reason.

But if there was a perfectly acceptable and reasonable explanation they would have announced why DLB is not there just to shut everyone up.

The fact that they choose not to announce it, as per their perogative, means they know that the end user will only be more upset by that announcement.

If the reason is becasue of VOD, then it is a real shame becasue most of that programming is a waste of time anyway. I especially have problems if they begin to charge for it as you have to pay a fee to an internet service provider for the bandwidth in the first place. You don't have to do the same with the cable company. I can't imagine they won't start to charge for this material and if they don't then they wasted these resources for no financial gain.


----------



## Doug Brott

grantyn said:


> I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.
> 
> Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.


:welcome_s .. The HR21 is nice .. however, the feature set has not quite caught up to the HR20. That should happen soon and things will be improved over what you have now.

As for features ..


HD .. MPEG4 locals and dozens of new national channels
Faster menu functionality
overlap recording
one button Series Link setup

Those are a few .. The biggest being able to get the new HD channels.

Cheers.


----------



## anubys

say-what said:


> Unfortunately, this poll is not made up of random DirecTV customers and really can't be extrapolated to the overall DirecTV customer base.
> 
> I've used DLB on my DirecTIVO's, but don't consider it a "must have" feature and certainly don't miss it on the HR20/21.


I've already addressed that point in my post...I've also stated my opinion as a statistician and given valid reasons behind that opinion...all you've now said is that you're part of the one-third that would not miss it...that's fine, but it's not a plausible argument that the poll results are not statistically significant...


----------



## Doug Brott

anubys said:


> no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...


I understand what you are trying to say (race, etc.) about this being random. I do believe, however that there are other factors involved.

When the poll first started, there were only two options:

A must have and Don't really care about it.

I voted "A must have" If the third option were available when I voted, I would have chosen that one at the time as it most related to what my decision would be. Today, I would probably answer "Don't really care about it" because, quite frankly, I've given up - moved on and I'm happy with what the HR20 has become. The poll is also flawed because it is 16 months old and I wonder how accurate it could possibly be at this point ..


----------



## poppo

Lord Vader said:


> Your post contradicts itself. How can those who have never had a DVR before even _*know*_ what the workaround is. They'd have no knowledge of (a) how to use two tuners, (b) what a workaround even is, and (c) how to implement it.


Simple. Use the unit for a while. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.

I actually was using this workaround when I first got dual tuners enabled on my DirecTivo years ago because when I would switch to the second tuner and change the channel, it often changed the channel on the other tuner instead (dumpling the buffer). So it took about 2 seconds to figure out that if I put the first tuner on record, a channel change on the second tuner would force that tuner to change instead of the first.


----------



## Lord Vader

poppo said:


> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.


Oh? Care to put money on that? Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge of the average DVR user when it comes to the finer points of such a device. Such person is not one who visits Internet forums like this one. Because of this, they tend to not be aware of many features or even things like DLB with which you and I have become familiar.


----------



## kanderna

Lord Vader said:


> Oh? Care to put money on that? Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge of the average DVR user when it comes to the finer points of such a device. Such person is not one who visits Internet forums like this one. Because of this, they tend to not be aware of many features or even things like DLB with which you and I have become familiar.


This was exactly my thought. I could immediately come up with at least 10 people who wouldn't think to do that. They're not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, they are just basic TV watchers who happen to own a DVR, aren't techies, and don't go searching for info on internet message boards.


----------



## Lord Vader

I can point to my mother, father, sister, brother, and sister-in-law, all who live in a TIVO and/or HR20 household but don't even know what the term "DLB" or "Dual Live Buffer" is or means, or how it works. All they have is some basic knowledge of being able to flip back and forth between the two tuners and retaining the buffer. My father, however, uses the "prev channel" button, thereby deleting the buffer. When I try to explain this whole thing to him, he tells me, "It's the same thing." 

No it's not, but what more can I do to explain it? Of the aforementioned people, only my sister has the most knowledge of this, and that is limited anyway.


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> :welcome_s .. The HR21 is nice .. however, the feature set has not quite caught up to the HR20. That should happen soon and things will be improved over what you have now.
> 
> As for features ..
> 
> 
> HD .. MPEG4 locals and dozens of new national channels
> Faster menu functionality
> overlap recording
> one button Series Link setup
> 
> Those are a few .. The biggest being able to get the new HD channels.
> 
> Cheers.


Do not forget:


Native Mode (much better picture quality over a good HDTV)
"Back" Button (a huge win over the HR10, much easier to navigate)
90 Minute Single Buffer (Catching the end of a movie? Go back to start)
5 Previous Channels w/Guide (Jump to last 5 channels and see what's on them too)
Softkey Menu's (Colored icons give you much better menu functionality tailored to your location)

Lot's more, too.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> I can point to my mother, father, sister, brother, and sister-in-law, all who live in a TIVO and/or HR20 household but don't even know what the term "DLB" or "Dual Live Buffer" is or means, or how it works. All they have is some basic knowledge of being able to flip back and ofrth between the two tuners and retaining the buffer. My father, however, uses the "prev channel" button, thereby deleting the buffer. When I try to explain this whole thing to him, he tells me, "It's the same thing."
> 
> No it's not, but what more can I do to explain it? Of the aforementioned people, only my sister has the most knowledge of this, and that is limited anyway.


Further proof that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what DLB is and don't want it even when it's explained to them.

Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else. The concept of constant 'flipping' between two simultaneous programs is confusing for the average Joe.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

kanderna said:


> This was exactly my thought. I could immediately come up with at least 10 people who wouldn't think to do that. They're not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, they are just basic TV watchers who happen to own a DVR, aren't techies, and don't go searching for info on internet message boards.


Exactly.

A person who is happy with their HR20 has no need to go to a message board to share their glee. Like a toaster, the DVR just works the way its supposed to. I didn't go to the Dualit Toaster forum and start a thread called "Woo Hoo! I Made Toast This Morning!". I take the basic functionality as a given.

Same for the HR20. Only those that have a gripe or are power users looking for hacks/tweaks come here. That's why the "poll" is not a good representation of the true HR20 userbase.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

poppo said:


> Simple. Use the unit for a while. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.
> 
> I actually was using this workaround when I first got dual tuners enabled on my DirecTivo years ago because when I would switch to the second tuner and change the channel, it often changed the channel on the other tuner instead (dumpling the buffer). So it took about 2 seconds to figure out that if I put the first tuner on record, a channel change on the second tuner would force that tuner to change instead of the first.


One of the fundamental issues preventing DLB from being implemented is that the HR20 is designed for Mr. & Mrs. Accord, not Mr. Wealthy Videophile.

Remember the VCR? How the typical person never used it to record TV, just play back rented movies? How the clock would blink 12:00 because they were too unsophisticated to figure out how to timeshift TV shows?

That's the person that the HR20 is geared for, and that person is just happy as a clam to have a reliable VCR in their lives. And these people are used to jumping back/forth between two programs without any buffering capability. It's not a feature that's intuitive, so it's not a feature that they long for. Most of us in here didn't even know it existed on our T60's or HR10's until we hit the 'down' key accidentally and said "whoa, what was that?".

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> I understand what you are trying to say (race, etc.) about this being random. I do believe, however that there are other factors involved.
> 
> When the poll first started, there were only two options:
> 
> A must have and Don't really care about it.
> 
> I voted "A must have" If the third option were available when I voted, I would have chosen that one at the time as it most related to what my decision would be. Today, I would probably answer "Don't really care about it" because, quite frankly, I've given up - moved on and I'm happy with what the HR20 has become. The poll is also flawed because it is 16 months old and I wonder how accurate it could possibly be at this point ..


Doug:

You're on the right track and best of all you're a mod. Time to close this thread and start a new one with the following purposes only:

1. Place for newbs to get the message that DLB isn't available so they don't create new posts on the board.

2. Place for a new poll with many more options including "I'm so happy with the other new features I don't miss DLB at all".

3. Place for updates from the likes of Earl on the true, non-speculated status of DLB functionality.

This will eliminate the biggest issues with this thread:

1. Platform for complainers who no longer have an audience at Tivo forums as it's all but a ghost town.

2. Huge post count, making this non-issue look like some major flaw in the product and thus dissuading potential D* customers from jumping onboard.

3. Repetitive whining from the same handful of Tivo loyalists, most of whom don't even own an HR20.

Please consider this, discuss with the other mods, and respond.

Thank you.

BJ


----------



## inkahauts

ShiningBengal said:


> Of course DirecTV has no obligation to say anything at all. Of course, the fact that they won't say anything is what has led to all the endless speculation and frustration.
> 
> My own speculation is that their particular implementation of VOD has made it difficult or impossible to have DLB coexistant on the HR20. I think that letting that cat out of the bag would cause more consternation than saying nothing, because I doubt very much that VOD will ever attract any kind of regular usage.
> 
> If indeed this is the case (and I really, really think it is), I can only ask rhetorically, "why in the heck would they give up DLB for this nonsense?"
> 
> The "beta" release of VOD is certainly not very impressive, and it kind of begs the question, "WHY?" It isn't true VOD because it isn't "on demand" when it takes hours to download a 30 minute overly compressed less-than-standard definition show. And this is why I have an HDTV display, and an HDTV DVR???? Oh, I see, there will be HDTV in the future. What? To take a day to download a 90 minute HDTV show?
> 
> After looking at the offerings and going through the expense and frustration of setting up a wireless ethernet adaptor, I'm kicking myself for wasting the money and time to set it up. I'll never use it.
> 
> I doubt very much that DirecTV will ever publicly admit to such folly.


I must ask, what makes you think DOD has anything to do with DLB, other than they are spending the time to implement one before the other. I see the fact that they want to allow users to go back in time up to 90 mins more of a factor than anything else (vs the 30mins on a tivo), and still this is not a real technical limitations reason. And you noted that VOD is in beta, so yeah there isn't much there now, but wait until a couple months after it is no longer beta. I have a feeling the HD content will be as plentiful as the SD.

And if it is taking you hours to download a 30 min sd program, that probably has more to do with your internet speed than anything else. I can start a sd download for a 30 min program and start watching it within in 2 to 10 mins and never catch up... HD will obviously take a bit longer....

I believe VOD will be as popular as watching a regular channel within a 5 to 10 years. Lets be honest, when you see people walking down the street or driving in their cars, what are they listening to, the radio or their downloaded music on some sort of MP3 or ipod? I believe its becoming a generational thing, downloading everything that entertains us...


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> Further proof that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what DLB is and don't want it even when it's explained to them.
> 
> Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else. The concept of constant 'flipping' between two simultaneous programs is confusing for the average Joe.
> 
> BJ


Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't. 



boltjames said:


> Exactly.
> 
> A person who is happy with their HR20 has no need to go to a message board to share their glee. Like a toaster, the DVR just works the way its supposed to. I didn't go to the Dualit Toaster forum and start a thread called "Woo Hoo! I Made Toast This Morning!". I take the basic functionality as a given.
> 
> Same for the HR20. Only those that have a gripe or are power users looking for hacks/tweaks come here. That's why the "poll" is not a good representation of the true HR20 userbase.
> 
> BJ


So you're are comparing a DVR to a toaster? That seems to explain a lot... 

I contend that one of the key original selling points of DVRs was not only to replace the VCR as a recorder, but also to replace it as a receiver and enhancing the live viewing experience. Why else would Tivo (and others) promote ANY live buffer, trickplay, ability to pause during phone calls (and bio breaks), etc?

To me DVR does not mean record only, it means Digital Video Receiver. I watch quite a bit of live TV in the background so like to trickplay when, halfway thru a story it catches my attention; and dual buffers of live TV during sports.


----------



## inkahauts

boltjames said:


> One of the fundamental issues preventing DLB from being implemented is that the HR20 is designed for Mr. & Mrs. Accord, not Mr. Wealthy Videophile.
> 
> Remember the VCR? How the typical person never used it to record TV, just play back rented movies? How the clock would blink 12:00 because they were too unsophisticated to figure out how to timeshift TV shows?
> 
> That's the person that the HR20 is geared for, and that person is just happy as a clam to have a reliable VCR in their lives. And these people are used to jumping back/forth between two programs without any buffering capability. It's not a feature that's intuitive, so it's not a feature that they long for. Most of us in here didn't even know it existed on our T60's or HR10's until we hit the 'down' key accidentally and said "whoa, what was that?".
> 
> BJ


I still believe this is the biggest fallacy to ever hit the entertainment industry, and NO one ever really wanted it investigated, because it would have played major havoc with neilson ratings and advertising dollars, because they saw back then that that market could kill there revenue, as they have said DVR's that skip commercials do today. Many may not have set a clock, but everyone I know always new how to put in a tape and hit record on the vcr, while watching a different station on the tv. Neilson is finally starting to realize this and is making extremely massive changes to its metering systems and data collecting, and its only happening because the networks are scared to death that their advertising revenue per show is dropping like a rock for live telecasts. I believe that the consumer is way more sophisticate than we give them credit for when it comes to recording tv. If there is something on tv they want to watch, then low and behold they will figure out how to record it if they aren't going to be around to watch it...

Just like, if a person is savvy enough to want a DLB environment to watch a TV show, then by golly, whether they know the term or not, they'll probably figure it out for themselves at some point...

And when it comes to explaining the capabilities of this unit with a car metaphor, I would liken it was built to be operated more like an automatic rather than a stick, with a huge amount of features, so you could operate it like a simple ford focus or an advanced 4 wheel drive sport car that's a hybrid with a stick shift mode.... And the programmers decided that they need to make sure all the ford focus functions were up and running before they went full steam ahead with the sports car features, but they are adding those features by the day....

Thats the greatest thing about the HR20. It has all the hardware pieces on it to make it do just about everything one could possibly want, and they can upgrade it anytime, with software, so as new ideas (or old ones) come along, then they can be used on the unit, even if its not there today, making it usable by everyone. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if we see DLB come to this unit within 6 months, shoot, I've already seen one function come to it that I never thought I would see, and there is really only one function that I've ever seen on a DVR that I Know won't come to this unit...


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else.
> 
> BJ


Really??? Then, tell us, why has DirecTV put time and energy in the ability to look at pictures on a networked computer and listen to music files that reside on the computer?

I thought the thing was built so I could watch TELEVISION.


----------



## boltjames

*Tom Robertson Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't. *

Sure, they can learn to use them. But the point is they don't even care if its a feature that's available. Mr. & Mrs. Camry just want a reliable recorder and they watch one program at a time. They're not dual bufferers.

*So you're are comparing a DVR to a toaster? That seems to explain a lot... *

Ah, that's the crux of the issue right there, isn't it?

The HR10 was designed for you and I. Power users. People who like to tweak. People who'd spend $1000 in a heartbeat for an HD DVR years ahead of the curve. People who care about quality and a customized viewing experience.

The HR20 is not designed for that type of person. It's designed for the "Join Now And Get Two Months Free!" crowd. Not me, my mother. To them, to _those _people, the D* DVR is expected to be a toaster. Easy to use. Reliable. Unsophisticated. Point-and-shoot. All they want is good toast; don't think for a minute they care about the other bells and whistles. Look no further than the dumbed-down cable DVR's or today's cellphone strategy which is not about the hardware, just about the reliable service.

*I contend that one of the key original selling points of DVRs was not only to replace the VCR as a recorder, but also to replace it as a receiver and enhancing the live viewing experience. Why else would Tivo (and others) promote ANY live buffer, trickplay, ability to pause during phone calls (and bio breaks), etc? *

Because, dear friend, Tivo and the likes of the HR10 were designed to cater to you and I. Videophiles. Bleeding edge technologists. Tinkerers. Hobbiests. Everything on your short list except pausing live TV means the world to us, means zippo to my mom. Pausing live TV and easy-to-use recording setups is all mom cares about. And it's mom that's the target audience for the HR20. DLB was a barely used feature by the wealthy videophile; it's no wonder they eliminated it from their mass STB.

*To me DVR does not mean record only, it means Digital Video Receiver. I watch quite a bit of live TV in the background so like to trickplay when, halfway thru a story it catches my attention; and dual buffers of live TV during sports.*

So long as you keep mistakenly using the word "I" instead of "mom", the DLB issue won't be clear to you. "Mom" doesn't use D* the way you do. She just wants a "simple cable box" but with "that NFL Sunday stuff that my husband wants". You want filet mignon. She wants toast. D* used to need you. Now they need her.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> Really??? Then, tell us, why has DirecTV put time and energy in the ability to look at pictures on a networked computer and listen to music files that reside on the computer?
> 
> I thought the thing was built so I could watch TELEVISION.


Pictures and music files? Those are right in Mr. & Mrs. Camry's sweetspot. They just got their first iPod, just figured out what a Playlist is in iTunes, finally understand the difference between 'ripping' and 'burning'.

My mom uses a digital camera and rips CD's to MP3's. Convergence, for her, is a simple ability to view photos on a screen and listen to Barry Manilow through the tinny TV speakers.

You see "sophisticated networking capabilities". She see's "free pictures on my TV". You want filet mignon. She wants toast. D* doesn't want you as much as they want _her_.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

My mom wants DLB and my dad doesn't know how to hook up the HR20 to the network. Methinks you've got the simple and complex features backward...


----------



## General Custer

Directv likes to use the term "upgrade" to convince people to switch to the HR20. They should have come out with a unit that had all the features of the original box and added on from there. They didn't necessarily need to keep the tivo interface but it should have included all the features of the HR10 that could legally be copied.

They apparently use the term upgrade to mean switch to the "newer" DVR, not necessarily the unit with more different features. Most people don't want to sacrifice the things that they already have in order to pick up something new. If they aren't getting additional usefulness out of a new purchase they just stay with the original unit. 

If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc. 

A true MPEG4 HD TIVO would certainly give the HR20 a run for its money if Directv were forced to open up its receiver market the way the cable industry did with cablecards.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

General Custer said:


> Directv likes to use the term "upgrade" to convince people to switch to the HR20. They should have come out with a unit that had all the features of the original box and added on from there. They didn't necessarily need to keep the tivo interface but it should have included all the features of the HR10 that could legally be copied.
> 
> They apparently use the term upgrade to mean switch to the "newer" DVR, not necessarily the unit with more different features. Most people don't want to sacrifice the things that they already have in order to pick up something new. If they aren't getting additional usefulness out of a new purchase they just stay with the original unit.
> 
> If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc.
> 
> A true MPEG4 HD TIVO would certainly give the HR20 a run for its money if Directv were forced to open up its receiver market the way the cable industry did with cablecards.


First, I sorely miss *DLB* and hope it will someday return. My posts of the subject show how I feel.

However, IMHO the HR20 _is_ an upgrade. It has features that I feel are far above my old TiVo. *SLB* is my only real peeve and even that continues to improve.

I went into this knowing there was no *DLB* on the HR20. Based on this thread and my own hopes, I thought it would be comming. I no longer believe that but still hold out for the future.

Speaking only for myself and how we watch TV, I didn't sacrifice any feature to upgrade and feel I gained in the deal(*DLB* not withstanding). I have decided that a single feature will not be the straw the out weighs the overall experience.

I will however, continue to hope for/complain about/push for *DLB*. 

Mike


----------



## poppo

inkahauts said:


> I believe VOD will be as popular as watching a regular channel within a 5 to 10 years.


Popular where HS Internet is available. Keep in mind a very large portion of the country is still rural and those are the folks that satellite is their only option (vice cable). Not to get too off topic, but I see us moving to the new 'have and have nots' with the Internet. Everything these days is geared toward having a HS connection. And those of us out here in the sticks see no light of day for getting it anytime soon. It's just not cost effective to run fiber etc.. I have satellite Internet which is expensive and only 1.5M DL, and all versions of satellite Internet have some sort of a FAP and just a few HD VOD movies can eat up your BW allotment. And I hear of more and more ISPs putting caps on the heavy BW users. If VOD over the Internet takes off, I see big problems even for the city folks as BW demand surpasses availability.


----------



## beer_geek

Make up your mind. You say it's for people who can't program the time on their old vcr but these same people can network the thing. Right. 

Again, what do pictures and music files have to do with, as you put it, "The entire purpose of a DVR"?


----------



## poppo

General Custer said:


> If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc.


You forgot the IMO at the beginning of your statement. Personally, not having to 'hack' my unit to increase the space, turn on features and the picture in guide are well worth the sacrifice of a feature (DLB) I have never really used. I never use wish lists or suggestions either. Of course that's partly to having more of a life than sitting in front of the TV all day.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't.


Not exactly, Tom. It's just his generation isn't as technologically savvy as today's is, or even mine, which is between the two. My father has learned, but only after I've explained it to him. My mother? Well, she can't even get the flashing "12:00" off her VCR!

With respect to boltjames' post to which you replied, though, he's just clueless, by citing "further proof." The average Joe would definitely love to know what DLB is, even if it's explained to them using some other terminology. None of my family members knows what the heck "DLB" means, but when I tell them about switching tuners and maintaining the buffer, they're all 100% in favor of it and love it. In fact, they all ask me, "Why can't the new receiver do this?"

P.S. Did you HAVE to quote bolt, Tom? There were 5 ignores in a row, and I was enjoying the silence, not having to read his emotionally illogical drivel.


----------



## ToddinVA

Mr. Bolt, can you please explain where you get this notion that the HR10 was designed for rich technofiles and the HR20 was only designed for unsophisticated dolts? Sure, the HR10 was expensive at first, but quickly plunged in price. And guess what, it's a TiVo which is widely regarded as having the easiest and simplest to use interface of all the DVRs. So easy that technically unsophisticated people can use it along with us techies. The HR20, while not hard to use, certainly isn't as easy to use as a TiVo. Aside from DLB, I'm not sure how you can say that the HR20 is not designed for advanced users. Since it's newer, it has several more features, many of which require some degree of technical knowledge to implement, such as network connectivity. The fact is, the HR20 is the more advanced and harder to use DVR and the HR10 is the simpler and easier to use DVR. DLB just happens to be one major feature of the HR10 (and pretty much ALL other dual tuner DVRs) that the HR20 lacks. Suggestions is the other one, which we know it will never get. Sorry, but your continued conjecture just don't make sense.


----------



## Lord Vader

If we ALL stop asking him questions, if we ALL put him on ignore, he could then simply spend time here talking to himself.


----------



## poppo

Lord Vader said:


> None of my family members knows what the heck "DLB" means, but when I tell them about switching tuners and maintaining the buffer, they're all 100% in favor of it and love it. In fact, they all ask me, "Why can't the new receiver do this?"


I have to ask, are they all sports nuts? I ask because no one in my family is a 'channel flipper'. And short of wanting to watch live sports, flipping back and forth between regular shows would just give me a headache.


----------



## Lord Vader

Yes, they do watch sports games quite often, which is when they use DLB the most.


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> If we ALL stop asking him questions, if we ALL put him on ignore, he could then simply spend time here talking to himself.


People - we've been warned already. Let's keep this ON TOPIC ...

For example ...

I've used TiVos for four years before getting my first HR20, and I loved DLB the entire time. However, since I got my first HR20, I've adapted to life withot DLB, mostly by having two HR20s on the same TV and using a universal remote to switch TV inputs between the two HR20s. It's worked well, but I woul dlove to have DLB back on ONE box, so I don't have that annoying pause as the inputs are changed.

Because of my workaround, it's not a "must-have" for me, but it will definitely make life more convenient for me ...


----------



## Lord Vader

I do happen to like my HR20s, in many respects. However, I *do* wish they had DLB!


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> I've used TiVos for four years before getting my first HR20, and I loved DLB the entire time. However, since I got my first HR20, I've adapted to life withot DLB, mostly by having two HR20s on the same TV and using a universal remote to switch TV inputs between the two HR20s. It's worked well, but I woul dlove to have DLB back on ONE box, so I don't have that annoying pause as the inputs are changed.
> 
> Because of my workaround, it's not a "must-have" for me, but it will definitely make life more convenient for me ...


maybe that's what DirecTV wants...I also have my HR10 next to the HR20 so I can have 4 tuners at the same time (for the NFL sunday ticket)...so the lack of DLB means that they make extra money off me because I'm keeping an extra receiver active!


----------



## Lord Vader

Bingo. You win the prize. I'm sure there will be people who deny this, but DirecTV *does* make more money by not having DLB, and I'm sure they'd like to keep it that way. Think about it. If it was revealed this was one of the main reasons, the uproar would be deafening.


----------



## Doug Brott

anubys said:


> maybe that's what DirecTV wants...I also have my HR10 next to the HR20 so I can have 4 tuners at the same time (for the NFL sunday ticket)...so the lack of DLB means that they make extra money off me because I'm keeping an extra receiver active!


It has worked this year, but next year NFL ST will be MPEG4 rendering the TiVo a non-option for that purpose.


----------



## MikeR7

Lord Vader said:


> Bingo. You win the prize. I'm sure there will be people who deny this, but DirecTV *does* make more money by not having DLB, and I'm sure they'd like to keep it that way. Think about it. If it was revealed this was one of the main reasons, the uproar would be deafening.


I haven't seen this before. Where have you heard that DirecTV™ makes more money if they don't have DLB on their DVR's?


----------



## Lord Vader

It is a logical conclusion, especially when we're talking about recent TIVO converts. Those TIVO owners who are aware of what DLB is and how it works (even if they don't know the acronym we've attached to this feature) miss it on the HR20 series. Many of these people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV. 

And they know it.


----------



## tiger2005

Doug Brott said:


> It has worked this year, but next year NFL ST will be MPEG4 rendering the TiVo a non-option for that purpose.


That timeframe will probably be a good indicator of how important DLB really is. If there is an incredibly large roar, or even if there's silence, I think DirecTV will notice. This might give the casual fans that already have their local game on a local channel and just enjoy watching all of the NFL games, a second of thought on re-upping their NFLST committment. I gave NFLST a chance this year without DLB and I must say that the $350 pricetag looms A LOT larger than it did previously, which is the reason I won't re-up next year. Watching all of the games is just not as fun as it used to be with DLB as a feature. The slow response of the interactive features doesn't help, but that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## tiger2005

poppo said:


> It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>


My claim is based around DirecTV's desire to maintain their higher paying customers. The customers that buy the NFLST, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV makes a ridiculous amount of cash on those packages, especially NFLST. I should know because I'm one of those customers. Refer to my last post on my feelings of NFLST now that DLB has been excluded in the HR20. Its just not the same and the price isn't worth it anymore.


----------



## Doug Brott

tiger2005 said:


> That timeframe will probably be a good indicator of how important DLB really is. If there is an incredibly large roar, or even if there's silence, I think DirecTV will notice. This might give the casual fans that already have their local game on a local channel and just enjoy watching all of the NFL games, a second of thought on re-upping their NFLST committment. I gave NFLST a chance this year without DLB and I must say that the $350 pricetag looms A LOT larger than it did previously, which is the reason I won't re-up next year. Watching all of the games is just not as fun as it used to be with DLB as a feature. The slow response of the interactive features doesn't help, but that's a topic for another thread.


Of course, the TiVo could still be used, but not in HD .. but what's NFL if not in HD? 

That being said, I truly believe the percentage of HR10s that are in use for no-OTA HD has become insignificant in DIRECTVs mind. Sure, it's not zero, but very few people are using it now the way it used to be intended. I doubt there will be much MPEG2 HD available this time next year.


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Many people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV.
> 
> And they know it.


Yeah, millions of D* subscribers are asking for, paying for, and are installing multiple set top boxes on one TV so that they can toggle between two shows and hit the back button for a few seconds of content they missed once a week.

Further proof that the pro-DLB crowd has no clue what motivates D* or the average subscriber.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> Yeah, millions of D* subscribers are asking for, paying for, and are installing multiple set top boxes on one TV so that they can toggle between two shows and hit the back button for a few seconds of content they missed once a week.
> 
> Further proof that the pro-DLB crowd has no clue what motivates D* or the average subscriber.
> 
> BJ


There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..


----------



## jheda

Well said. Regardless of whether DLB is implimented, Directv has done an amazing job at listening to our input. Simply look at how many items have been addressed off the wishlist. The continued desire by posters for DLB is far form an indictment of Directv; if anything it says alot that some still have hope it will be implimented as a result of the history of Directv paying attention to subs utilization.



Doug Brott said:


> There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..


No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.

The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"

I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.

Can you consider this option?

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.
> 
> The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"
> 
> I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.
> 
> Can you consider this option?
> 
> BJ


You need to understand one of the axioms of passionate topics in forum world. If we close this thread, especially as active as you personally have been making it, everyone will re-re-repeat all the stuff that is already being repeated right now. So very quickly, any new thread will look very much like this thread.

Mr. BJ, if you have anything else you'd like to discuss about the moderation of the forums, please take that to PM to a moderator. Do not question or discuss these things in the open forums. Thank you.


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> It is a logical conclusion, especially when we're talking about recent TIVO converts. Those TIVO owners who are aware of what DLB is and how it works (even if they don't know the acronym we've attached to this feature) miss it on the HR20 series. Many of these people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV.
> 
> And they know it.


As a TiVo convert (who still has four TiVos active on my account but who ever uses them), I can attest that DLB and the lack thereof is NOT the reason I have more than one HR20 on a single TV. I have two HR20s on a single TV because I like to split my recordings up across four tuners to avoid conflicts: CBS and NBC on my "HR20-24" DVR (2=CBS, 4=NBC), and ABC and FOX on my "HR20-57" DVR (5=Fox, 7=ABC), with various other channels distributed evenly across the two DVRs.

I really doubt anyone would pay $5 a month *solely* to add 'pseudo-DLB' capabilities to their AV setup. More likely, they add the additional HR20/HR21 to gain more tuners, and the 'pseudo-DLB' becomes a nice fringe benefit ...


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.
> 
> The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"
> 
> I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.
> 
> Can you consider this option?
> 
> BJ


The poll is what it is .. I was looking to see if there might be interest in a do-over. There were a couple of passionate folks that thought even my suggestion was too limited. I guess the point is .. what is the point? It is clear that DLB is popular .. It is also clear that it is what it is for now. Let's let the discussion be what it is and not worry about it.

The fine folk that visit this forum can usually find their way around quick enough to make their own decision regarding this thread. So .. this thread will remain open and as-is ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

boltjames said:


> No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.
> 
> The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"
> 
> I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.
> 
> Can you consider this option?
> 
> BJ


Mr. James, I disagree with your assessment. Back when I used to read tivocommunity.com every day, there was a thread about an MRV petition for DirecTivos. It was longer and hairier than this thread for sure but neither I nor anyone I spoke to in those days took it to mean that the DTivo had "a big problem" because it didn't have a feature the SA Tivos had.

This thread, as long as it is, is a good place for people to commiserate on this topic.


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> As a TiVo convert (who still has four TiVos active on my account but who ever uses them), I can attest that DLB and the lack thereof is NOT the reason I have more than one HR20 on a single TV. I have two HR20s on a single TV because I like to split my recordings up across four tuners to avoid conflicts: CBS and NBC on my "HR20-24" DVR (2=CBS, 4=NBC), and ABC and FOX on my "HR20-57" DVR (5=Fox, 7=ABC), with various other channels distributed evenly across the two DVRs.
> 
> I really doubt anyone would pay $5 a month *solely* to add 'pseudo-DLB' capabilities to their AV setup. More likely, they add the additional HR20/HR21 to gain more tuners, and the 'pseudo-DLB' becomes a nice fringe benefit ...


I again agree with Drew...I will always need more than 2 tuners on my main TV...there are plenty of nights when I'm recording 3 shows at once...most of the time, I can move something to a cable repeat (such as a different night for HBO or the west coast feed)...but thursday night now, for example, has Survivor, the NBC shows (Earl, 30 Rock, and Office) plus an NFL game...I must have 3 live tuners to record all of them...it's not just for DLB...we need a new unit that has 4 active tuners at once!


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, I've got three units connected to my main TV alone: an HR20-700, an HR10-250, and an HDVR2. I still would like DLB on the HR20-700, however, because that shows more HD channels, including HD sports.


----------



## imposterxyz

Don't have time to peruse this thread to see if this has been mentioned before. Clearly, the primary function of a DVR is to timeshift programming. A side effect of time-shifting is the ability to skip commercials, which of course we all love, but the advertisers naturally hate. When watching live TV, timeshifting is no longer applicable. But a DVR with DLB allows the viewer to essentially watch two live shows and skip the commercials in BOTH. From the perspective of the content providers, i.e., to protect their advertising revenue, that seems like a pretty good reason to oppose DLB.

IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?


----------



## vankai

imposterxyz said:


> Don't have time to peruse this thread to see if this has been mentioned before. Clearly, the primary function of a DVR is to timeshift programming. A side effect of time-shifting is the ability to skip commercials, which of course we all love, but the advertisers naturally hate. When watching live TV, timeshifting is no longer applicable. But a DVR with DLB allows the viewer to essentially watch two live shows and skip the commercials in BOTH. From the perspective of the content providers, i.e., to protect their advertising revenue, that seems like a pretty good reason to oppose DLB.
> 
> IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?


I've asked the same question and got the following response in the link below.

It is true that clearing buffers also eliminates the advertising in that buffer, and it is true that the workaround of psuedo DLB through recording both buffers still allows the skipping of advertisements. Regardless, the advertisers could have nicely asked DirecTV to not include DLB when negotiating $$$, as they may still have the perception you mention above. We may never know, unless somewhere here is involved with the negotiations and wants to speak up.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1017240


----------



## Que

9-07-07



Que said:


> A must have! 1840 76.16%
> Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
> Voters: 2416
> 
> Replies 1,437
> Views 78,583


11-01-07



Que said:


> A must have! 2357 77.00%
> Don't really care about it. 152 4.97%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 552 18.03%
> Voters: 3061.
> 
> Replies 1,880
> Views 102,583


12-12-07
A must have! 2546 77.29%
Don't really care about it. 163 4.95%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 585 17.76%
Voters: 3294.

Replies 2,182
Views 117,826

In this very short time span. There are 878 new votes.


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## Earl Bonovich

For the ump-teenth time...
It has nothing to do with advertising $$$$$...

As there is nothing stoping you from getting up from your chair...

Changing the channel via Traditional channel surfing still works.

Or FFing through pre-recorded content.


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## Earl Bonovich

imposterxyz said:


> IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?


TiVo has never included the "SKIP" feature as an official feature of it's system. It has always been a backdoor code, and has never been mentioned in their manuals... (unless soemthing has changed in the Series 3 line)


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> In this very short time span. There are 878 new votes.


And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.

There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.

It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.

BJ


----------



## inkahauts

Earl Bonovich said:


> TiVo has never included the "SKIP" feature as an official feature of it's system. It has always been a backdoor code, and has never been mentioned in their manuals... (unless soemthing has changed in the Series 3 line)


Yep.. The only to DVR's to ever advertrise and create a button for the 30 second skip feature was Ultimate TV and Replay... Of course replay went a bit further one year and added a feature that would allow it to AUTOMATICALLY skip all commercials, without you having to press any buttons.... Ohh, did they get yelled at from everyone, and eventually turned off that particular feature...

By the way, did everyone notice that Directv bought Replay today!!!!! MRV MRV MRV!!!


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.
> 
> There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.
> 
> It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.
> 
> BJ


wow...totally and absolutely wrong conclusion based on (I'm inferring here) lack of statistical knowledge...

the fact that as more and more people vote while the percentages stay the same is -- statistically speaking -- further proof that the sample is good and that the poll is showing the true population proportions...in other words, the *exact opposite* of what you're saying...

Furthermore, (I'm only teasing now) I don't think "precentually" is a word


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.
> 
> There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.
> 
> It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.
> 
> BJ


Are you kidding me??? What numbers are you looking at??? 'A Must Have' only went up by a little over 1 point, but the other two options went DOWN. I'm beginning to wonder if DLB did something to you personally.


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> Are you kidding me??? What numbers are you looking at??? 'A Must Have' only went up by a little over 1 point, but the other two options went DOWN. I'm beginning to wonder if DLB did something to you personally.





anubys said:


> the fact that as more and more people vote while the percentages stay the same is -- statistically speaking -- further proof that the sample is good and that the poll is showing the true population proportions...in other words, the *exact opposite* of what you're saying...


Guys....

We know that with all the new HD channels launched during the past 5 weeks that scores of loyal HR10 users are finally giving up waiting and are converting to HR20's.

That would mean that a larger percentage of the polling userbase would be this group of "unhappy loyal Tivo users" who held on as long as they could, and thus more people with the potential to vote "yes" for DLB.

To this point the population has been skewed, but consistent with a smattering of grumpy HR10 converts as opposed to right now when there are scores of them migrating. With more of them coming over to DLB, you'd think the "yes" numbers would have risen more sharply.

BJ


----------



## jahgreen

anubys said:


> no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...


Ahh, now I understand the point you are making.

But then I worry about a biased poll question. Telling somebody about a missing feature and asking them if they want it suggests the answer.

This is what advertisers do . . . . 

FULL DISCLOSURE: I'd like to have DLB. But I'd like to have a High Definition DVD player, too.


----------



## Doug Brott

The poll may not be completely accurate, but I would certainly agree that the 'must have' crowd is bigger than the 'don't care' crowd. That's being said, those that really, don't care .. well, they probably didn't even open the thread . That's where your gonna see any bias.

Now .. past that .. let's please stop dissecting the validity of the poll. It is what it is and nothing more. The decision to implement rests with DIRECTV and I'm sure they've already gotten what they need from this thread. The decision to stay with DIRECTV rests with you, the consumer, and DLB is but one of the factors in that decision.

Since the "poll validity" discussions are the ones that are turning this thread argumentative, I will be deleting those posts from this thread from this point forward. Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to continue discussing the merits of DLB or no DLB or what you think, etc. etc.


----------



## jim_arrows

boltjames said:


> Guys....
> 
> We know that with all the new HD channels launched during the past 5 weeks that scores of loyal HR10 users are finally giving up waiting and are converting to HR20's.
> 
> That would mean that a larger percentage of the polling userbase would be this group of "unhappy loyal Tivo users" who held on as long as they could, and thus more people with the potential to vote "yes" for DLB.
> 
> To this point the population has been skewed, but consistent with a smattering of grumpy HR10 converts as opposed to right now when there are scores of them migrating. With more of them coming over to DLB, you'd think the "yes" numbers would have risen more sharply.
> 
> BJ


I'm one of the recent converts, 3 months with an HR20. Due to the lack of DLB, I only use it when absolutely necessary -- i.e. the new mpeg-4 channels. Any time I can still use the Tivo, I do so. It's a shame, because IF the hr20's had the DLB, I'd happily give up the Tivo -- I'm not one of the Tivo loyalists. From a UI perspective, the Tivo does some things better, the hr20 does some things better. But from a functional perspective, the lack of DLB means the hr20 is crippled when compared to the Tivo. Oh, and I HATE that there isn't a dedicated slow-motion button, but that's for another thread...


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> The poll may not be completely accurate, but I would certainly agree that the 'must have' crowd is bigger than the 'don't care' crowd. That's being said, those that really, don't care .. well, they probably didn't even open the thread . That's where your gonna see any bias.
> 
> Now .. past that .. let's please stop dissecting the validity of the poll. It is what it is and nothing more. The decision to implement rests with DIRECTV and I'm sure they've already gotten what they need from this thread. The decision to stay with DIRECTV rests with you, the consumer, and DLB is but one of the factors in that decision.
> 
> Since the "poll validity" discussions are the ones that are turning this thread argumentative, I will be deleting those posts from this thread from this point forward. Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to continue discussing the merits of DLB or no DLB or what you think, etc. etc.


Can we discuss the validity of the deletion of the validity posts?


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> Can we discuss the validity of the deletion of the validity posts?


Since that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> Since that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ...


Exactly .. Thank you.


----------



## jheda

If the SLB were perfected, where the pause would hold the live buffer and you could switch between a live buffer and a recording show, thus being able to flip between 2 shows/events, would u give up your tivo?



jim_arrows said:


> I'm one of the recent converts, 3 months with an HR20. Due to the lack of DLB, I only use it when absolutely necessary -- i.e. the new mpeg-4 channels. Any time I can still use the Tivo, I do so. It's a shame, because IF the hr20's had the DLB, I'd happily give up the Tivo -- I'm not one of the Tivo loyalists. From a UI perspective, the Tivo does some things better, the hr20 does some things better. But from a functional perspective, the lack of DLB means the hr20 is crippled when compared to the Tivo. Oh, and I HATE that there isn't a dedicated slow-motion button, but that's for another thread...


----------



## ToddinVA

jheda said:


> If the SLB were perfected, where the pause would hold the live buffer and you could switch between a live buffer and a recording show, thus being able to flip between 2 shows/events, would u give up your tivo?


I wouldn't.


----------



## jheda

May I ask, Todd, why not, assuming of course DLB is the sole reason you havent switched?

For me, since i can relatively easily watch 2 games at once with a proper performing SLB, I am fine...but thats me. I am interested in how many of us dlb fanatics would move on with a functioning SLB.....


----------



## General Custer

Drew2k said:


> Since that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ...


Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.


----------



## cygnusloop

General Custer said:


> Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.


From the User Agreement. The rules are the rules. Please don't get this thread closed again.



> (t) Moderators decisions are NOT to be questioned in public. PMs are encouraged. If a moderator closes or moves a thread, do not start another one on the same topic. This includes veiled or similarly named threads solely designed to protest a moderating decision. These will be considered "questioning the moderators" and will result in a temporary or permanent ban. If you have a question for a moderator on a decision, you can send a PM to anyone, and we will get back to you.


:backtotop


----------



## Drew2k

General Custer said:


> Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.


Forum Rules, Paragraph T. You know, in the User Agreement you surely read and agreed to when you created your DBSTalk.com user account ...


----------



## ToddinVA

jheda said:


> May I ask, Todd, why not, assuming of course DLB is the sole reason you havent switched?
> 
> For me, since i can relatively easily watch 2 games at once with a proper performing SLB, I am fine...but thats me. I am interested in how many of us dlb fanatics would move on with a functioning SLB.....


It's just too much trouble. I tend to bounce around a lot sometimes and having to record one show, etc is a pain. Also, what if I don't have a lot of room left and the shows are in HD and are long? Recording them may cause space issues as well. Frankly, I find the SLB concept more confusing that DLB to use...


----------



## anubys

in light of DirecTV purchasing replay...and since I've never owned a replay...did those units have DLB?


----------



## tiger2005

anubys said:


> in light of DirecTV purchasing replay...and since I've never owned a replay...did those units have DLB?


I asked this same question in the Replay purchase thread and apparently Replay was a single tuner machine only. So the answer would be no.


----------



## say-what

General Custer said:


> Is the First Amendment respected here


As I tell people on the site I run when they play the 1st Amendment card, the 1st Amendment starts, "Congress shall make no law.....", this isn't Congress, you have to play by the site's rules.


----------



## sshams95

say-what said:


> As I tell people on the site I run when they play the 1st Amendment card, the 1st Amendment starts, "Congress shall make no law.....", this isn't Congress, you have to play by the site's rules.


Very true and I agree with the Mods in being aggressive in enforcing this site's rules. If I recall correctly, I remember reading on Engadget that the Blue Ray vs HDDVD thread at AVSForums had to be shut down because the argument got so heated, I guess a couple of physical threats ensued. Now I'm sure we are all above that, but the Mods are doing the right thing in ensuring it doesn't come close to that type of situation.


----------



## Doug Brott

Time to get :backtotop .. Thank you.


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> Time to get :backtotop .. Thank you.


Indeed. Even I, a powerful Sith Lord, knows that the First Amendment doesn't apply here.


----------



## jheda

so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers: 

thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?


----------



## tiger2005

jheda said:


> so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:
> 
> thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?


I think its a step in the right direction, but I agree with Todd that it would still only qualify as a work-around and be way more complicated than DLB. One of the best benefits of DLB was that it was a simple feature to use and very uncomplicated. One button and you can hop back and forth to programs that are being buffered. You didn't have to make sure you have enough HD space, hit record, delete the program later, etc. The HD space issue is one of the major problems with the current work-around, especially when its used for sporting events where the guide doesn't have a definitive end time. Just implementing SLB wouldn't rectify this issue.


----------



## cygnusloop

jheda said:


> so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:
> 
> thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?


For me, the most pain has been for watching football, and a working SLB pretty much solves this issue for me, as I would always be recording my "main" game, anyway. When the SLB holds the pause point on the other game, this works very well for me.

Where I still miss DLB is when I want to monitor more than two channels at the same time, for example, with breaking news events. I like to monitor CNN, FOX, and MSNBC. I would put one buffer on channel A, and the other on channel B. Then I would watch channel B until a break, and change it to channel C to let it start buffering. I would then switch back to the now buffered channel A and watch it until catching up to live, or a break, pause it, switch back to the now buffered channel C until a break. At this point, channel A has built up a buffer again.... and so on, and so on. The SLB workaround, even with a working SLB doesn't help for this situation.


----------



## homerdodge

Yes, this arrangement is certainly better than nothing, but having to record something, even if the thing does pause the SLB properly, is a Rube Goldbergian alternative to a proper DLB. 

Take the need to manually record out of the equation. That requires stopping the recording if you decide you don't want that channel anymore, but you still want the channel that is not being recorded, the channel the SLB is on. You have to screw around with stopping the recording of the one channel and starting a recording of the other, and cleaning up the old recording. 

And if a Series Link comes along, then the SLB channel is going to have to be switched to do the Series Link recording because the other tuner that you were not currently viewing is locked into recording that other channel. 

With true DLB on an HR10-250, you'd instead get a pop up notifying you that the other tuner that you were not currently viewing needed to be switched to channel xxx, to do the Season Pass recording. Thereby, not interfering with the channel you were viewing currently.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jheda said:


> so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:
> 
> thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?


It would be a great leap forward.

It's not as convenient as true *DLB* but workable. And yes, it would make the HR-20 more enjoyable to use.

It won't stop me from pushing for *DLB* though. 

Mike


----------



## henryld

MicroBeta said:


> It would be a great leap forward.
> 
> It's not as convenient as true *DLB* but workable. And yes, it would make the HR-20 more enjoyable to use.
> 
> It won't stop me from pushing for *DLB* though.
> 
> Mike


+1


----------



## Green23

I've been following this topic for months, and just can't figure out what they were thinking. This DVR has "2 tuners" - but a user has no DLB and can't actually switch tuners while viewing. This seems like a fundamental element of a "2 tuner" device especially when the previous TIVO models allow this. Now they've removed OTA tuners from the 21- what's next? How much more can they f these DVR's up? This is reverse engineering- you can't improve technology by removing useful features. Can't understand what they're really trying to do here.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Green23 said:


> I've been following this topic for months, and just can't figure out what they were thinking. This DVR has "2 tuners" - but a user has no DLB and can't actually switch tuners while viewing. This seems like a fundamental element of a "2 tuner" device especially when the previous TIVO models allow this. Now they've removed OTA tuners from the 21- what's next? How much more can they f these DVR's up? This is reverse engineering- you can't improve technology by removing useful features. Can't understand what they're really trying to do here.


They have removed the DLB feature, presumably, because some other "feature" cannot coexist with DLB.

(The obvious "feature" is VOD. This is the feature whereby you can choose from a slate of old shows in less-than-standard definition while at the same time being able to record two shows cotemporaneously from the Guide.)

I have enabled VOD on one of my HR20's, and IMHO, it is a joke. Who is going to want to record low definition shows on an HD capable system, particularly since there is nothing noteworthy about the VOD offerings otherwise? Not to mention that even a less than standard definition program can take 2 to 10 times as long to record as to play it back? I always thought video "on demand" meant "instantaneously."

It is also apparent that DirecTV needed something to counter cable TV that offers true video on demand--in HD!

DirecTV is making fools of themselves if they think anyone is going to give a hoot about their version of VOD if it is anything at all like what they have in their beta release. I have tested my bandwidth at 7 Mbit/sec consistently, yet I have seen a 40 minute program take 7 hours to download. What a joke.


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, I consistently download a 2GB movie in less than 2 hours--much less than 2 hours, in fact.


----------



## Doug Brott

ShiningBengal,

Not sure why you say no DLB is because of On Demand. I could have missed it I guess, but in the year plus that I've been here, I don't ever recall seeing the exact reason why DLB is not a feature of the HR20/21. I don't expect to either because design elements of the DIRECTV receivers are probably something DIRECTV doesn't want the public to see.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Lord Vader said:


> Well, I consistently download a 2GB movie in less than 2 hours--much less than 2 hours, in fact.


That's really good for you, Lord Vader. However, your experience appears not to be typical. I have had a few faster downloads, too. But it appears that the speed is very dependent on the server load at the moment.

My DSL connection is not at fault. My house is 1-1/2 blocks from the telco CO and it tests consistently at close to 7 Mb/sec.

I am aware that a small fraction of subscribers have faster DL speeds, but it appears not to matter in most cases.

By the way, how do you know the size of your download? And what is it that you have found compelling enough to bother to download?

The fact is, if DirecTV is going to call this feature "on demand" you shouldn't have to wait for it to download at all. That isn't what "on demand" means.

DirecTV has recognized that their service is not "on demand" by color coding the progress bar on your download. It turns green at 67% meaning it is safe (in most cases) to start playing a show at that time. However, you can still outrun the download when it is at 90%.

You still can't download any HD content. Why not? Might it be that you will never be able to get HD over the Internet because it would take most viewers more than a day to download the 15 GB file typical of a 90 minute movie?

If we do get HD "on demand" content, it will probably be from one of the new satellites.

In which case, you would not need the VOD "on demand" service.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Doug Brott said:


> ShiningBengal,
> 
> Not sure why you say no DLB is because of On Demand. I could have missed it I guess, but in the year plus that I've been here, I don't ever recall seeing the exact reason why DLB is not a feature of the HR20/21. I don't expect to either because design elements of the DIRECTV receivers are probably something DIRECTV doesn't want the public to see.


My statement is based on the fact that VOD uses a recording stream that is in addition to what is used for recording shows from the satellite. DLB also uses one more recording stream than SLB would. It is also based on the fact that DirecTV is tight lipped as far as stating what the specific reason is that they cannot/will not provide this feature.

Of course there has to be a technical reason we can't have it, and Earl has consistently alluded to the fact that he knows what that reason is, and that he is not permitted to say why. That is another strong reason to surmise that the design of the HR20/21 precludes DLB.

Every other DVR DirecTV has offered had DLB. No other DVR they have offered DID have VOD.

That is the basis for my statement. Do I absolutely know for sure that VOD is the reason for no DLB? No.

But if I hear hoofbeats, I do not look for Zebras.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> My statement is based on the fact that VOD uses a recording stream that is in addition to what is used for recording shows from the satellite. DLB also uses one more recording stream than SLB would. It is also based on the fact that DirecTV is tight lipped as far as stating what the specific reason is that they cannot/will not provide this feature.


Right now the HR20 can record two satellite streams and the DOD stream over the network all at the same time, so there can be three streams writing to the hard drive at once. Based on that, I'd say DOD is not the reason we don't have DLB. I don't know what the reason is, but I don't think it's DOD.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> Right now the HR20 can record two satellite streams and the DOD stream over the network all at the same time, so there can be three streams writing to the hard drive at once. Based on that, I'd say DOD is not the reason we don't have DLB. I don't know what the reason is, but I don't think it's DOD.


If you had one guess, what else might it be?

I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.

No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.


----------



## Doug Brott

ShiningBengal said:


> If you had one guess, what else might it be?
> 
> I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.
> 
> No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.


No problem with thinking that .. Just add "I think" to your statement next time and all is good  Your explanation is as plausible as any other I've heard.


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> If you had one guess, what else might it be?
> 
> I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.
> 
> No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.


I'll take TWO guesses:

(1) Maybe we don't have DLB because it would interfere with some mysterious new feature or service that we are not aware of that DIRECTV has had on the drawing boards since the inception of the R15 and hopes to deliver "some day." What it could be, I don't know, but if there is a new feature that would be one plausible (of many) that DIRECTV has asked Earl not to share with us the reason for no DLB.

(2) Maybe it's too embarrassing for DIRECTV to reveal why there is no DLB. Maybe before the R15 was introduced they had a researcher or lawyer who insisted that there were legal reasons that DLB could not be included in the design, so DIRECTV designed the R15 and subsequent plans for the HR20 around NOT having DLB in place. They spent countless hours and dollars on a design that they found out later could have had DLB, and it's embarrassing to them to realize how much time and money they wasted.

I could continue making guesses, but my theory is that the reason we don't have DLB is either a very good one (like guess 1 above) or a very lame one (like guess 2 above).

I sincerely doubt that DIRECTV would be "embarrassed" or that "embarrassment" is the reason we still don't have DLB. They are a corporation that has a very public testing program where, from the long view, it's easy to say DIRECTV has learned from past mistakes and has no qualms about going "public" with new features before those features are released nationally.

So I think the more likely reason is that there is some new feature that would prevent DLB, in its truest form, from being implemented. Who knows ... maybe DIRECTV is re-engineering both the new feature and the existing HR20 software to try to make DLB and the new feature exist, and that is yet another reason why we haven't seen DLB?

Anyway, just my guesses ... and poor ones at that.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Doug Brott said:


> No problem with thinking that .. Just add "I think" to your statement next time and all is good  Your explanation is as plausible as any other I've heard.


Your exception is duly noted.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> I'll take TWO guesses:
> 
> (1) Maybe we don't have DLB because it would interfere with some mysterious new feature or service that we are not aware of that DIRECTV has had on the drawing boards since the inception of the R15 and hopes to deliver "some day." What it could be, I don't know, but if there is a new feature that would be one plausible (of many) that DIRECTV has asked Earl not to share with us the reason for no DLB.
> 
> (2) Maybe it's too embarrassing for DIRECTV to reveal why there is no DLB. Maybe before the R15 was introduced they had a researcher or lawyer who insisted that there were legal reasons that DLB could not be included in the design, so DIRECTV designed the R15 and subsequent plans for the HR20 around NOT having DLB in place. They spent countless hours and dollars on a design that they found out later could have had DLB, and it's embarrassing to them to realize how much time and money they wasted.
> 
> I could continue making guesses, but my theory is that the reason we don't have DLB is either a very good one (like guess 1 above) or a very lame one (like guess 2 above).
> 
> I sincerely doubt that DIRECTV would be "embarrassed" or that "embarrassment" is the reason we still don't have DLB. They are a corporation that has a very public testing program where, from the long view, it's easy to say DIRECTV has learned from past mistakes and has no qualms about going "public" with new features before those features are released nationally.
> 
> So I think the more likely reason is that there is some new feature that would prevent DLB, in its truest form, from being implemented. Who knows ... maybe DIRECTV is re-engineering both the new feature and the existing HR20 software to try to make DLB and the new feature exist, and that is yet another reason why we haven't seen DLB?
> 
> Anyway, just my guesses ... and poor ones at that.


Your guesses are, like mine, conjecture. Time will tell whose guesses were poor and whose were not.

If I had to choose one of the two guesses you came up with, it would be #2, primarily since it fits nicely with my own theory.

If I were DirecTV, I would be extremely embarrassed that they opted for a feature as lame as DOD ("Dead on Delivery?") at the expense of one as useful and popular as DLB.


----------



## Steve

ShiningBengal said:


> I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.


Perhaps what ever re-engineering is required has been completed with the SLB PAUSE retention fix we're testing in the current CE.

I just started a DOD download, and then simulated DLB's by recording CBS HD and PLAYING it from the LIST while pausing NBC HD in the LIVE buffer. I'm hitting PREV to toggle back and forth, and all is working as expected.

This indicates to me that there is no technical reason DLB's couldn't be implemented now, if it's someting DirecTV wanted to do. In my mind, it should simply be a matter of "auto-starting" a record of the background tuner if it's available, and teaching PREV to toggle between tuners, instead of one tuner and the last PLAYLIST playback. Or leave PREV "as is" and designate another key that would only "prev" between tuners, like the DOWN ARROW on the HR10.

Just my .02. /steve


----------



## ShiningBengal

Steve said:


> Perhaps what ever re-engineering is required has been completed with the SLB PAUSE retention fix we're testing in the current CE.
> 
> I just started a DOD download, and then simulated DLB's by recording CBS HD and PLAYING it from the LIST while pausing NBC HD in the LIVE buffer. I'm hitting PREV to toggle back and forth, and all is working as expected.
> 
> This indicates to me that there is no technical reason DLB's couldn't be implemented now, if it's someting DirecTV wanted to do. In my mind, it should simply be a matter of "auto-starting" a record of the background tuner if it's available, and teaching PREV to toggle between tuners, instead of one tuner and the last PLAYLIST playback. Or leave PREV "as is" and designate another key that would only "prev" between tuners, like the DOWN ARROW on the HR10.
> 
> Just my .02. /steve


You may be right, Steve. But your explanation of how the new "fixed" SLB works begs the question: Why not _true_ DLB?


----------



## Drew2k

ShiningBengal said:


> You may be right, Steve. But your explanation of how the new "fixed" SLB works begs the question: Why not _true_ DLB?


Because they're still working on it ...


----------



## Lord Vader

I don't think so, Drew. They have the technical capability to implement DLB right now. It's just that DirecTV _*chooses *_ not to implement it, the reasons why known to them and to Earl, who has repeatedly said he cannot divulge said reasons.


----------



## homerdodge

I know - Santa's bringing it.
Yipee!!!


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> I don't think so, Drew. They have the technical capability to implement DLB right now. It's just that DirecTV _*chooses *_ not to implement it, the reasons why known to them and to Earl, who has repeatedly said he cannot divulge said reasons.


I think the argument can be made that until the current CE test cycle started, there was no hope for DLB because often you couldn't watch a recording from the playlist without the live buffer being lost, and you couldn't pause the live buffer to watch a recording and then return to the live buffer to resume playback from the paused position. Now that this functionality is in place, and it's still being worked on, we have greater hope for DLB, but it still can't happen until all issues related with the SLB are identified, resolved, and locked down. That's why I answered "because they're still working on it [SLB]" to Shining Bengal when he asked, "why not DLB?"

Like posted in the "Forget about DLB - fix SLB instead" thread, we can't put the cart before the horse. Or another one, you can't walk before learn to crawl... with the SLB fixes currently being tested, we're still crawling ...


----------



## Lord Vader

But your theory would mean that they currently do not have the technical ability to implement DLB (because of the SLB-related issues), when it's been stated that they do have said capability but just choose not to do so.


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> But your theory would mean that they currently do not have the technical ability to implement DLB (because of the SLB-related issues), when it's been stated that they do have said capability but just choose not to do so.


I don't see it that way. I'm talking about whether or not we had hopes of seeing DLB and I'm posting the few known facts: SLB wasn't working; it's currently being worked on; one day the SLB updates will be released nationally.

Having technical capability is quite different from actually utilizing that capability and implementing a solution, whether it's for SLB, DLB, or anything else. Before the DOD service was introduced the DVRs were technically able to record three independent streams to the hard drive, but it wasn't until we received the software and DIRECTV turned on the service that we could actually do it.

That the HR20 is technically capable of having DLB is not in disupte ... whether there are updates implemented that enable DLB is a different maatter, and in my opinion, it makes no sense to work on DLB untill SLB is fixed, and that is currently in progress. That's all I'm saying.


----------



## boltjames

homerdodge said:


> I know - Santa's bringing it.
> Yipee!!!


I know Santa and he's not working on DLB. Nope, not the elves either.

BJ


----------



## Steve

ub1934 said:


> Here is their Ans. to this.


Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steve


----------



## ToddinVA

ub1934 said:


> Here is their Ans. to this.


That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.


----------



## ub1934

ToddinVA said:


> That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.


We all know that it's just like them telling me that the 3 mo. free on the HD Pack is to give them more time to put it back with the HD access where it should be.


----------



## Drew2k

Steve said:


> Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steve


Well, if you consider CSR statements to be "official", I guess so! :lol:

But "dual *line* buffer"? My guess is the correspondence CSR has just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and made up the answer without selecting a standard/pre-written generic response.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ub1934 said:


> Here is their Ans. to this.





Drew2k said:


> Well, if you consider CSR statements to be "official", I guess so! :lol:
> 
> But "dual *line* buffer"? My guess is the correspondence CSR has just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and made up the answer without selecting a standard/pre-written generic response.


Not to mention there can't be any "Single Line Buffer" either. What is that supposed to mean?

Mike


----------



## inkahauts

ToddinVA said:


> That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.


While this is a highly suspect statement (the csr's), and replay being bought may now make this completely mute, did anyone consider that those other dvrs using dlb, (by the way, WHO? I am not familiar enough with others past replay and ultimate and tivo and the hr20) are paying tivo for the right to use dlb?


----------



## Lord Vader

Steve said:


> Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steve


Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse.

Remember, too, that DirecTV has been licensing TIVO patent for some time now anyway.


----------



## Drew2k

Lord Vader said:


> Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse.


Note - it wasn't an Excecutive of DIRECTV responding, it was a Correspondence CSR. No more weight should be attributed to this emailed response than if a Phone CSR stated it over the phone ...


----------



## Lord Vader

Then that explains the contents of the letter. That or the CSR was lying through his teeth.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse.
> 
> Remember, too, that DirecTV has been licensing TIVO patent for some time now anyway.


Earl has stated many times in this thread that there is no patents on *DLB*.

Mike


----------



## kmill14

MicroBeta said:


> Earl has stated many times in this thread that there is no patents on *DLB*.
> 
> Mike


There might not be specific patents on the DLB feature, but it is very possible (and probable) that Tivo's "time warp" patent contains the only viable and inexpensive way to perform a proper DLB. Other DVRs certainly perform this feature, but of course one (E*) is getting sued and others (Comcast and Cox) signed long-term deals with Tivo.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

kmill14 said:


> There might not be specific patents on the DLB feature, but it is very possible (and probable) that Tivo's "time warp" patent contains the only viable and inexpensive way to perform a proper DLB. Other DVRs certainly perform this feature, but of course one (E*) is getting sued and others (Comcast and Cox) signed long-term deals with Tivo.


That's possible. I'll have to look it up.

Mike


----------



## Steve

ToddinVA said:


> That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.


Other DVR's have FF autocorrect as well, also in violation of TiVo's patents. Perhaps TiVo just hasn't gotten around to suing them yet. Who knows what their next legal moves will be after they're done with Echostar, now that their patents in that case have been upheld by the courts.

That being said, DirectTV does have a cross-licensing deal with TiVo on patents through 2010. I don't know what particular features that deal covers, however. /steve


----------



## jheda

I trust Earl implicitly who has repeatedly said it is NOT a patent issue...


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> I trust Earl implicitly who has repeatedly said it is NOT a patent issue...


D* doesn't need DLB to get our money, so they don't provide it. Why is this so hard to understand?

I want internet access on all my flights. United doesn't need internet access to get my money, so they don't provide it. I understand.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

kmill14 said:


> There might not be specific patents on the DLB feature, but it is very possible (and probable) that Tivo's "time warp" patent contains the only viable and inexpensive way to perform a proper DLB. Other DVRs certainly perform this feature, but of course one (E*) is getting sued and others (Comcast and Cox) signed long-term deals with Tivo.





MicroBeta said:


> That's possible. I'll have to look it up.
> 
> Mike


I believe the patent is for the specifics to manipulate any number of incoming television signals as if it were akin to video tape or DVD.

It would seem that if you take the patent to mean you can't have *DLB* then you would have to extend that to a DVR as a whole.

Not sure I can make any sense out of this (engineer not lawyer  ) but I'll give it a shot. Let me know what you think.

Now if the patent is for a method of taking multiple inputs (one or more) and allowing for pausing, rewinding, fast forwarding a live stream, a recorded stream or any combination there of, wouldn't this mean any DVR would be in violation of the patent? By extension, a lawyer might argue that streaming video would be in violation of TiVo's patent.

I could be wrong but I think the patent is for how a task is done not the task itself. I think that in order to make sense of it we need to separate the method from the task.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

MicroBeta said:


> Earl has stated many times in this thread that there *is* no patents on *DLB*.
> 
> Mike


Is you a college graduate, too?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> Is you a college graduate, too?


That's what I get for editing a sentence and not rereading it.

I was paying more attention soon. 

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> [DIRECTV] doesn't need DLB to get our money, so they don't provide it. Why is this so hard to understand?


DIRECTV doesn't need to provide FFW auto-correction to take our money, but they provide it.

DIRECTV didn't need to provide SKIP functionality to take our money, but they provide it.

DIRECTV didn't need to provide SLIP functionality to take our money, but they provided it in the current CE test software.

DIRECTV didn't need to provide a shortcut to enable CC, but they provided it anyway in the current CE test software.

I forgot ... what was the point you were making? That DIRECTV doesn't do anything or enhance the UI feature-sets unless there's money in it for them?


----------



## jheda

Sorry, i am not as smart as you BJ, just smart enough not to get bated so the thread gets closed and you win....



boltjames said:


> D* doesn't need DLB to get our money, so they don't provide it. Why is this so hard to understand?
> 
> I want internet access on all my flights. United doesn't need internet access to get my money, so they don't provide it. I understand.
> 
> BJ


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> Other DVR's have FF autocorrect as well, also in violation of TiVo's patents. Perhaps TiVo just hasn't gotten around to suing them yet. Who knows what their next legal moves will be after they're done with Echostar, now that their patents in that case have been upheld by the courts.


Working on memory here but I thought it was established that autocorrect on FF wasn't the Tivo patent but the ability of the DVR to adjust the autocorrect based upon usage (or learning) was the Tivo patent. Which Tivo never implemented. A simple autocorrect is not a patent and predates the existance of Tivo (my VCR had it in the early 1990s.).


----------



## Lord Vader

Drew2k said:


> DIRECTV doesn't need to provide FFW auto-correction to take our money, but they provide it.
> 
> DIRECTV didn't need to provide SKIP functionality to take our money, but they provide it.
> 
> DIRECTV didn't need to provide SLIP functionality to take our money, but they provided it in the current CE test software.
> 
> DIRECTV didn't need to provide a shortcut to enable CC, but they provided it anyway in the current CE test software.
> 
> I forgot ... what was the point you were making? That DIRECTV doesn't do anything or enhance the UI feature-sets unless there's money in it for them?


Must you keep feeding the trolls? The ignore feature: a wonderful tool!


----------



## cygnusloop

MicroBeta said:


> ...It would seem that if you take the patent to mean you can't have *DLB* then you would have to extend that to a DVR as a whole.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts?
> 
> Mike


Earl's thoughts here.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I forgot ... what was the point you were making? That DIRECTV doesn't do anything or enhance the UI feature-sets unless there's money in it for them?


Your examples are all essential or near-essential features of a DVR to the masses. Jumping between two tuners to watch two programs simultaneously is a tweaky feature for a small niche.

So, yes, if D* thought that DLB was an essential part of their DVR, it would be there as customer disatisfaction would hit them in the pocketbook. They don't, so it isn't and it doesn't.

Just saying that perhaps one shouldn't misinterpret essential features being modified as "D* being cool by listening to its users" and lump a non-essential feature in there when voicing unhappiness. Apples and oranges.

BJ


----------



## inkahauts

boltjames said:


> D* doesn't need DLB to get our money, so they don't provide it. Why is this so hard to understand?
> 
> I want internet access on all my flights. United doesn't need internet access to get my money, so they don't provide it. I understand.
> 
> BJ


Slip and/or Skip is not a feature that could ever make money for DirecTV and is definetly not a feature that is needed in a DVR. Tivo sure does NOT have it. (they do have a backdoor for skip only, but its strictly backdoor) In fact its a lot easier to say that DirecTV could end up loosing money for having that feature in their DVR.

And I'm not a fan of your airline analogy. It might be accurate if you were talking about media share capabilities on an HR2x... Internet access has nothing to do with how the airplane flies. DLB has to do with how the HR2x functions in your TV viewing....


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Working on memory here but I thought it was established that autocorrect on FF wasn't the Tivo patent but the ability of the DVR to adjust the autocorrect based upon usage (or learning) was the Tivo patent. Which Tivo never implemented. A simple autocorrect is not a patent and predates the existance of Tivo (my VCR had it in the early 1990s.).


Actually TiVo patented just about every way you could to compensate for "overshoot". As you can see by # 4 here, a "fixed" offset value is part of their patent claim. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> That being said, DirectTV does have a cross-licensing deal with TiVo on patents through 2010. I don't know what particular features that deal covers, however. /steve


From my understanding, the agreement covers all TiVo Patents .. DLB just isn't one of them.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> From my understanding, the agreement covers all TiVo Patents .. DLB just isn't one of them.


Ya. I did some searching through the TiVo patents and couldn't find one that seems to cover DLB's. So you think DirecTV's canned response is in error? I'm kind of surprised these responses aren't vetted by someone in legal before they're allowed to be sent out ot the public. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Ya. I did some searching through the TiVo patents and couldn't find one that seems to cover DLB's. So you think DirecTV's canned response is in error? I'm kind of surprised these responses aren't vetted by someone in legal before they're allowed to be sent out ot the public. /steve


Yes, the canned response is wrong and even contradicts itself. In the first sentence it says that you cannot "buffer" because it is IP of TiVo .. in the second sentence you can "cache" it based on your recording needs .. duh! those are the same thing in this context.

If that message were sent to me, I would have immediately dismissed it as bunk.


----------



## Drew2k

I still contend there was nothing "canned" about that response ... it was a correspondence CSR that had just enough knowledge to be dangerous and flat-out got it wrong, typing a paragraph free-hand instead of choosing a standard "canned" paragraph.

I'm glad Earl is forwarding that response to his contacts for follow-up, because this is how companies get a "black eye" when "written" correspondence, often perceived as "official", is just so factually incorrect...


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> I still contend there was nothing "canned" about that response ... it was a correspondence CSR that had just enough knowledge to be dangerous and flat-out got it wrong, typing a paragraph free-hand instead of choosing a standard "canned" paragraph.
> 
> I'm glad Earl is forwarding that response to his contacts for follow-up, because this is how companies get a "black eye" when "written" correspondence, often perceived as "official", is just so factually incorrect...


Sorry Drew .. your thoughts exactly express my poorly worded sentiment.


----------



## Drew2k

No apologies necessary! 

I saw "canned" used quite a few times in the two current DLB threads, and just really didn't want people to think DIRECTV pre-programmed that paragraph into their correspondence system! :lol:


----------



## Dr. Booda

I don’t believe that it is a patent issue, although my conclusion is based on marginal information from DIRECTV. Earlier this year I had numerous HR20 HDD issues, and I was finally given a special phone number and extension by a Tech. CSR to call. She stated that this was a group that specialized only with the HR20 unit (I have no idea about the validity of that statement). While talking about the HDD issues to the individual (he actually sounded like an engineer), I asked point blank why DLB was not included in the HR20 unit. His response was one of amazement; “Why would you ever need to watch two tuners simultaneously?”

My gut feel is that the feature wasn’t deemed to be important and was just left off of the first design. The box was designed with a trickplay feature for the active tuner and a record feature for the second tuner because of an assumption as to how consumers would use the system.


----------



## beer_geek

Drew2k said:


> I still contend there was nothing "canned" about that response ... it was a correspondence CSR that had just enough knowledge to be dangerous and flat-out got it wrong, typing a paragraph free-hand instead of choosing a standard "canned" paragraph.
> 
> I'm glad Earl is forwarding that response to his contacts for follow-up, because this is how companies get a "black eye" when "written" correspondence, often perceived as "official", is just so factually incorrect...


Hopefully DirecTV sees the way to "save face" is to give us something that really is "official and factually correct".


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> Your examples are all essential or near-essential features of a DVR to the masses. Jumping between two tuners to watch two programs simultaneously is a tweaky feature for a small niche....
> 
> BJ


So you've never jumped between channels before, even before using a DVR?

"tweaky feature for a small niche" ????

I will refrain from what I'd like to say here.:lol:


----------



## boltjames

Green23 said:


> So you've never jumped between channels before, even before using a DVR?
> 
> "tweaky feature for a small niche" ????
> 
> I will refrain from what I'd like to say here.:lol:


The HR20 has a "jump" button. It even has a mini list of 5 previous channels to jump back to, complete with views of what's on each channel. Fabulous stuff.

DLB is the ability to jump between two programs with the buffer going along with each so you can rewind a bit to see what you missed on one channel while you were watching another.

Since only a small fraction of the TV viewing public actually need so much TV in their lives to watch two things at once instead of watching one and recording another, it's a useless feature.

The entire point of a DVR is to watch one thing whilst recording another. Hopping between them is unneccessary excepting the last 2 minutes of a football game and that's what NFL Sunday Ticket's Red Zone Channel HD is for.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> Hopefully DirecTV sees the way to "save face" is to give us something that really is "official and factually correct".


D* doesn't care about DLB. If they did, one of the following would be true:

1. They'd have recognized how useful it was on the HR10 and designed it into the HR20.

2. They'd have recognized the "mistake" of leaving it off the HR20 and incorporated it into their new HR21.

3. They'd have responded to the hounding of the DLB zealots with some sort of mention of "working on it for a future release".

D* doesn't care about this feature. It's very low on the priority list. Most D* users that had the feature on their HR10's or T60's didn't even know it was there. Most of all, if the feature was never on a D* box to begin with, no one would care that it isn't there now. It's the perception that something was taken away that makes people give it more credit than it was worth. It's like how you always pine away more for the lousy girl that dumped you rather than the good girl that you mutually broke up with.

BJ


----------



## inkahauts

boltjames said:


> D* doesn't care about DLB. If they did, one of the following would be true:
> 
> 1. They'd have recognized how useful it was on the HR10 and designed it into the HR20.
> 
> 2. They'd have recognized the "mistake" of leaving it off the HR20 and incorporated it into their new HR21.
> 
> 3. They'd have responded to the hounding of the DLB zealots with some sort of mention of "working on it for a future release".
> 
> D* doesn't care about this feature. It's very low on the priority list. Most D* users that had the feature on their HR10's or T60's didn't even know it was there. Most of all, if the feature was never on a D* box to begin with, no one would care that it isn't there now. It's the perception that something was taken away that makes people give it more credit than it was worth. It's like how you always pine away more for the lousy girl that dumped you rather than the good girl that you mutually broke up with.
> 
> BJ


1. wrong unless you have insider info you'd like to share to prove otherwise
2. definetly wrong
3. so beyond wrong

I need to figure out how to hide/ignore your posts.....

Figured it out... wow, this is nice.....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> D* doesn't care about DLB. If they did, one of the following would be true:
> 
> snip
> 
> 3. They'd have responded to the hounding of the DLB zealots with some sort of mention of "working on it for a future release".
> 
> snip
> 
> BJ


Actually, early in this thread that's exactly what Directv was saying. Here are only a few examples, there are more.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=705940&postcount=297

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=650398&postcount=169

Originally, this was one of the reasons I decided to get the HR20 even though it didn't have *DLB*.

It made sense to me that they would be adding it to the system and with Directv saying they were working on it, I was optimistic....silly me 

Something changed within Directv. What it was we may never know but at one time they were saying they were trying to find a way to implement it.

In the end I'm glad I upgraded. I'll be even happier if I get *DLB*. 

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

MicroBeta said:


> Actually, early in this thread that's exactly what Directv was saying. Here are only a few examples, there are more.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=705940&postcount=297
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=650398&postcount=169
> 
> Originally, this was one of the reasons I decided to get the HR20 even though it didn't have *DLB*.
> 
> It made sense to me that they would be adding it to the system and with Directv saying they were working on it, I was optimistic....silly me
> 
> Something changed within Directv. What it was we may never know but at one time they were saying they were trying to find a way to implement it.
> 
> In the end I'm glad I upgraded. I'll be even happier if I get *DLB*.
> 
> Mike


Exactly I could not have put it better . I to was mislead and kept my HR20 because of what was said in this thread . Heck now that I look at it one of those post qoutes me . All I want to know is what the hell happened ?


----------



## dminches

boltjames said:


> Since only a small fraction of the TV viewing public actually need so much TV in their lives to watch two things at once instead of watching one and recording another, it's a useless feature.
> 
> The entire point of a DVR is to watch one thing whilst recording another. Hopping between them is unneccessary excepting the last 2 minutes of a football game and that's what NFL Sunday Ticket's Red Zone Channel HD is for.
> 
> BJ


How can you make such a broad statement on how others use their equipment? I used DLB all the time with my HR10-250 and prior SD TiVos. If I was watching 2 live sports shows and wanted to be able to go back and see what happened on one while I was watching the other DLB was perfect. I am sure I am not alone in this regard.

Your use of the DVR is how you describe it. My use is different.

If DLB was so useless why did TiVo make it a part of their systems and tons of people grow to love it?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> Exactly I could not have put it better . I to was mislead and kept my HR20 because of what was said in this thread . Heck now that I look at it one of those post qoutes me . All I want to know is what the hell happened ?


I don't mean to imply that I was mislead. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

It was said there was only about a 50% chance of getting *DLB*.

I took that it was possible and being looked at. That was enough for me to take the plunge.

I am dissapointed and will continue to extol the virtues of *DLB*. 

I don't feel I was mislead. However, like you, I am wondering what changed. 
What is different then to now that makes Directv go from "_we're working on it_" to "_it's not comming_"? :scratch:

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Since only a small fraction of the TV viewing public actually need so much TV in their lives to watch two things at once instead of watching one and recording another, it's a useless feature.


*Unsupported supposition - not factual.
*


boltjames said:


> Most [DIRECTV] users that had the feature on their HR10's or T60's didn't even know it was there.


*Unsupported supposition - not factual.*



boltjames said:


> [DIRECTV] doesn't care about DLB. If they did, one of the following would be true:
> ...
> 
> 2. They'd have recognized the "mistake" of leaving it off the HR20 and incorporated it into their new HR21.
> 
> 3. They'd have responded to the hounding of the DLB zealots with some sort of mention of "working on it for a future release".


Much like DIRECTV didn't care about users complaining for a year about how difficult it was to toggle Closed Captioning, so they didn't announce anything and they quietly slipped a new toggle for CC into the recently released test software, much to the surprise and glee of DBSTalk forum members who have been hounding DIRECTV for the past year to give CC to us? DIRECTV obviously cared about this, they obviously listened, they obviously didn't announce in advance they were working on it ... all of which refutes your supposition as to why DIRECTV doesn't care about DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> I don't feel I was mislead. However, like you, I am wondering what changed.
> What is different then to now that makes Directv go from "_we're working on it_" to "_it's not comming_"? :scratch:


Remember, this is me speaking (not Earl), but I'll try to answer this question nonetheless. At the time, I don't think anyone here at DBSTalk.com knew the answer for sure. I thought DIRECTV was looking into the issue and AFAIK, they did. What came out of that process was "It won't be implemented." Even today, that could simply mean that it won't be tackled until other parts of the system have been sufficiently corrected. It could also mean that it will never be implemented.

What we were never told is the real reason why. I do not know that answer any more than the rest of you guys. I can hypothesize and conjecture all day, but the bottom line (for now) is there is no DLB and it won't be implemented. We've kibitzed over it for a year .. heck even longer .. now. I personally have given up on ever seeing it in the HR20 .. It's easy enough to simply record two programs if I want to toggle between the two or record one program and channel surf on the other tuner.

The HR20 does not have DLB and as popular a feature as it may be, it ain't there. Perhaps one day it will make it into the system .. especially after the Single Live Buffer bug gets completely knocked out .. but I, for one, am not holding my breath because while I like DIRECTV blue, I don't like having a blue face from lack of oxygen :grin:.


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> Much like DIRECTV didn't care about users complaining for a year about how difficult it was to toggle Closed Captioning, so they didn't announce anything and they quietly slipped a new toggle for CC into the recently released test software, much to the surprise and glee of DBSTalk forum members who have been hounding DIRECTV for the past year to give CC to us? DIRECTV obviously cared about this, they obviously listened, they obviously didn't announce in advance they were working on it ... all of which refutes your supposition as to why DIRECTV doesn't care about DLB.


FYI .. the test software is part of the Cutting Edge program and is available only if you agree to certain conditions .. Please see the Cutting Edge Forum and the Cutting Edge Rules for additional information.


----------



## boltjames

dminches said:


> How can you make such a broad statement on how others use their equipment? I used DLB all the time with my HR10-250 and prior SD TiVos. If I was watching 2 live sports shows and wanted to be able to go back and see what happened on one while I was watching the other DLB was perfect. I am sure I am not alone in this regard.
> 
> Your use of the DVR is how you describe it. My use is different.
> 
> If DLB was so useless why did TiVo make it a part of their systems and tons of people grow to love it?


I'm generalizing, but the theory goes that the HR10 was a $1000 rich-man's plaything, chock full of cutting edge features for the videophile with $10,000 HDTV equipment. Same could be said of the original Tivo back in the day, with a limited audience that could comprehend and afford the technology.

Flash forward a few years, and the HR20 is a commodity to attract Mr. & Mrs. Camry away from cable TV. It's got the features that are the most necessary and some new ones to make it even more appealing to D*'s new business model; a larger audience with a smaller IQ.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Much like DIRECTV didn't care about users complaining for a year about how difficult it was to toggle Closed Captioning, so they didn't announce anything and they quietly slipped a new toggle for CC into the recently released test software, much to the surprise and glee of DBSTalk forum members who have been hounding DIRECTV for the past year to give CC to us?


Good point, but I guess I'd come back with the fact that Closed Captioning is an essential part of the DVR, and there are legal compliance issues relative to ease of use of a feature for those with a handicap that could expose D* to a lawsuit if unaddressed. Just saying that CC is not some frivolous, tweaky feature like DLB. It's a luxury, nice-to-have feature. Not essential.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> What came out of that process was "It won't be implemented."


....which supports my point that "D* doesn't care about DLB because if they did, they'd have never eliminated it from their DVR to begin with".

They didn't say it "can't be implemented". They didn't say it "would be implemented".

They said "it won't be implemented".

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> I'm generalizing, but the theory goes that the HR10 was a $1000 rich-man's plaything, chock full of cutting edge features for the videophile with $10,000 HDTV equipment. Same could be said of the original Tivo back in the day, with a limited audience that could comprehend and afford the technology.
> 
> Flash forward a few years, and the HR20 is a commodity to attract Mr. & Mrs. Camry away from cable TV. It's got the features that are the most necessary and some new ones to make it even more appealing to D*'s new business model; a larger audience with a smaller IQ.
> 
> BJ


I never had a HR10 but the two guys I who did(one still does) only paid $199 & $299. Neither of these guys have more than the basic to mid level equipment and certainly wouldn't pay a thousand bucks.

I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe most people paid $1000 to get <10 HD channels. I'd be willing to bet most paid less than $300. I paid ≈$12 for my HR20 after programming discounts.

Maybe you shouldn't insult the intellegence of HR20 owners. Why I upgraded doesn't have anything to do with my IQ. :guck:

BTW, There's nothing wrong with a Camry. Most of us can't drive '07 328i Convertibles. 

Mike


----------



## boltjames

*MicroBeta I never had a HR10 but the two guys I who did(one still does) only paid $199 & $299. Neither of these guys have more than the basic to mid level equipment and certainly wouldn't pay a thousand bucks.*

By the 3rd and 4th year, the product was available for a lot less money, but it was originally designed to be an expensive product for a high-end customer. This is in the way, way prehistoric HD days mind you.

*I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe most people paid $1000 to get <10 HD channels. I'd be willing to bet most paid less than $300. I paid ≈$12 for my HR20 after programming discounts.*

Not sure if most did pay that type of coin, but it was designed that way from the git-go which is my point- it was chock full of features so as to justify the high cost. Time goes by, it gets marked down, and many people bought it for $300 and thus one of the reasons for the unfair comparison to the HR20 which was built for the masses as HD was out of the mezzazoic period and into the mainstream.

*Maybe you shouldn't insult the intellegence of HR20 owners. Why I upgraded doesn't have anything to do with my IQ. *

Didn't mean to insult anyone. Merely pointing out, in a humorous way, that we're not talking about a high-end DVR for a high-end customer base anymore; the HR20 is D*'s battle tank to destroy cable and convert the universe to satellite.

*BTW, There's nothing wrong with a Camry. Most of us can't drive '07 328i Convertibles. *

Nothing wrong with a Camry, but it's not a BMW. Again, that's my point. I drive a Camry now (HR20) and used to drive a BMW (HR10) but I've learned to appreciate the less expensive Camry as it has some features that come standard that aren't available on the BMW. So long as there's no loss of status in owning an HR10 vs. an HR20, it's not about the price or the badge; it's about functionality.

BJ


----------



## tiger2005

MicroBeta said:


> I never had a HR10 but the two guys I who did(one still does) only paid $199 & $299. Neither of these guys have more than the basic to mid level equipment and certainly wouldn't pay a thousand bucks.
> 
> I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe most people paid $1000 to get <10 HD channels. I'd be willing to bet most paid less than $300. I paid ≈$12 for my HR20 after programming discounts.
> 
> Maybe you shouldn't insult the intellegence of HR20 owners. Why I upgraded doesn't have anything to do with my IQ. :guck:
> 
> BTW, There's nothing wrong with a Camry. Most of us can't drive '07 328i Convertibles.
> 
> Mike


Also, let's not forget that DLB is still available on the SD DirecTV TiVo's still in use. Whether or not its an HD feed has very little to do with it outside of the size of the buffer being created on the hard drive. O...and I purchased a new Sony T-60 for about $500 when it first came out, and I've received two other SD DirecTV TiVo's from DirecTV through promotions for FREE. My father, who knows about as much about electronics as a bug, also received a DirecTV TiVo for $99. He loves the TiVo and DLB, and he wouldn't even know what a videophile is.


----------



## tiger2005

Isn't the HR20 $800 to purchase outright??? WOW, that's pretty expensive 5 years (?) after the HR10 launched. Sounds more like a BMW than a Camry to me.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I drive a Honda. 
And a 13 year old Camaro. 

I have HR10s, HR20s, and an HR21 all active right now. I also have a few older receivers that are no longer active.

The HR20 has features the HR10s don't have, and the HR10 still has a few features (or tweaks) that the HR20 doesn't have.

The base engines, a working DVR, is there on both. One has Sirius and DVD, one has XM and HD radio. To me, a better analogy than one is a BMW and one a Camry.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> I'm generalizing, but the theory goes that the HR10 was a $1000 rich-man's plaything, chock full of cutting edge features for the videophile with $10,000 HDTV equipment. Same could be said of the original Tivo back in the day, with a limited audience that could comprehend and afford the technology.
> 
> Flash forward a few years, and the HR20 is a commodity to attract Mr. & Mrs. Camry away from cable TV. It's got the features that are the most necessary and some new ones to make it even more appealing to D*'s new business model; a larger audience with a smaller IQ.
> 
> BJ


I already disproved your rich man/technofile theory in a post 2-3 days ago.



boltjames said:


> By the 3rd and 4th year, the product was available for a lot less money, but it was originally designed to be an expensive product for a high-end customer. This is in the way, way prehistoric HD days mind you.


The HR10 came out in April 2004. That's only a little over 3.5 years ago. It's NOT in it's 4th year yet. :nono2: Also, DLB has been available in the original SDTiVo since around 2000 or 2001. That box was definitely designed for "Mr. and Mrs. Camry". There goes your theory yet again....


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> The HR10 came out in April 2004. That's only a little over 3.5 years ago. It's NOT in it's 4th year yet. :nono2: Also, DLB has been available in the original SDTiVo since around 2000 or 2001. That box was definitely designed for "Mr. and Mrs. Camry". There goes your theory yet again....


I recall seeing the HR10 working prototype on the CES show floor in January 2003. Designed it for then, released it more than a year later.

I'll be at CES again in a month, and I'll march right up to the D* booth and ask someone about DLB. Give me the name of the person you want me to corner, and I'll get it done. Put him right on the spot about DLB. Get you your answer.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> I'll be at CES again in a month, and I'll march right up to the D* booth and ask someone about DLB. Give me the name of the person you want me to corner, and I'll get it done. Put him right on the spot about DLB. Get you your answer.
> 
> BJ


Go for it! I'd love hear their response. I don't have a name of anyone though. I wish I was going to CES...


----------



## cartrivision

ToddinVA said:


> The HR10 came out in April 2004. That's only a little over 3.5 years ago. It's NOT in it's 4th year yet. :nono2:


Not to nitpick, but on the day it was released it was *in* it's first year, so at 3.5 years old, it is in it's fourth year.:yesman:


----------



## Tom Robertson

I've met several of them at CES, look forward to seeing some of them again this year (heard one or two that I met last year won't be there this year ) Was very impressed with everyone I've met and talked to.

I don't expect their answer to be any different this year than what they have been telling Earl and I (and we've reported in many posts.) DLB is not off the table, but last report I had from DIRECTV was don't expect it anytime soon. There are other features they think we'll enjoy more to have sooner.

(And they are definitely cool things coming.) 

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## boltjames

cartrivision said:


> Not to nitpick, but on the day it was released it was *in* it's first year, so at 3.5 years old, it is in it's fourth year.:yesman:


I think I've been pwned. LOL.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> I've met several of them at CES, look forward to seeing some of them again this year (heard one or two that I met last year won't be there this year ) Was very impressed with everyone I've met and talked to.
> 
> I don't expect their answer to be any different this year than what they have been telling Earl and I (and we've reported in many posts.) DLB is not off the table, but last report I had from DIRECTV was don't expect it anytime soon. There are other features they think we'll enjoy more to have sooner.
> 
> (And they are definitely cool things coming.)
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


I'll get it out of them. You have no idea how important I am.

BJ


----------



## MikeR7

boltjames said:


> I'll get it out of them. You have no idea how important I am.
> 
> BJ


Ah, the truth is starting to come out!!:lol:


----------



## ToddinVA

MikeR7 said:


> Ah, the truth is starting to come out!!:lol:


I get it now...he's really the CEO of DirecTV or Liberty or something and he's trying to convince us to not want DLB. :lol:


----------



## dinotheo

I bought 2 - HR10-250's in April of 2004 for $1000 a pop and I drive a Subaru Forester...(ok so its modded to over 400 ft/lbs of torque) I bought my 3rd HR10 a few years later for $199 I believe. 
I don't regret the 2 that I bought for 1 minute. I still have and use all 3. I also have an HR20-700, HR20-100, and an HR21-700.


----------



## inkahauts

Lets be honest guys... The prices on the HR10 where high because they were the first of their kind. I remember that when the first HD OTA only tuners came out they were $1000.00, as were the first DVD players (neither of which could sell for more than $99 today, if that). The HR10 was never priced where it was because it was being marketed or geared towards the high end, it was just the only thing out there that could provide a particular solution, and they decided to price it where they could make money on it at the time. Otherwise, we never would have seen the prices fall to $200 while they were still new. Just like the first HD tv's were way more expensive, because they were the first. They at least had more than one model and a price range giving consumers a choice of quality levels...


----------



## bhelton71

inkahauts said:


> Lets be honest guys... The prices on the HR10 where high because they were the first of their kind. I remember that when the first HD OTA only tuners came out they were $1000.00, as were the first DVD players (neither of which could sell for more than $99 today, if that). The HR10 was never priced where it was because it was being marketed or geared towards the high end, it was just the only thing out there that could provide a particular solution, and they decided to price it where they could make money on it at the time. Otherwise, we never would have seen the prices fall to $200 while they were still new. Just like the first HD tv's were way more expensive, because they were the first. They at least had more than one model and a price range giving consumers a choice of quality levels...


I think they priced the HR10 in line with similar offerings - the Sony DHG-HDD500 and LG LST-3410A. And like the HDTivo the cost of those 2 DVRs was prohibitive to consumer adoption and both were discontinued within a year of introduction - I think the Sony model only lasted 4 months.

Phrase of the day: 'Economies of scale'.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> *MicroBeta I never had a HR10 but the two guys I who did(one still does) only paid $199 & $299. Neither of these guys have more than the basic to mid level equipment and certainly wouldn't pay a thousand bucks.*
> 
> By the 3rd and 4th year, the product was available for a lot less money, but it was originally designed to be an expensive product for a high-end customer. This is in the way, way prehistoric HD days mind you.
> 
> BJ


The guy with the $299 HR10 has had it(still does) for 1yr-9mo so your 3rd & 4th year theory is busted.

With Directv what is advertised vs. the out of pocket is usually 2 different things. The out of pocket is almost always much less. 

Mike


----------



## looter

bhelton71 said:


> I think they priced the HR10 in line with similar offerings - the Sony DHG-HDD500 and LG LST-3410A. And like the HDTivo the cost of those 2 DVRs was prohibitive to consumer adoption and both were discontinued within a year of introduction - I think the Sony model only lasted 4 months.
> 
> Phrase of the day: 'Economies of scale'.


And let's remember my 1st DIRECTV receiver and satellite dish were $800 in 1996.


----------



## bhelton71

So I understand that DLB would probably infringe on Tivos patent (United States Patent 6233389 ). But I don't understand this: as far as I can tell Tivos patent only references MPEG2 - how can it possibly cover MPEG4 ? Directv recently patented something to detect stream types I think - so why couldn't they just 'detect' mpeg2 - not dual buffer those streams - and only dual buffer MPEG4 ?


----------



## Doug Brott

bhelton71 said:


> So I understand that DLB would probably infringe on Tivos patent (United States Patent 6233389 ). But I don't understand this: as far as I can tell Tivos patent only references MPEG2 - how can it possibly cover MPEG4 ? Directv recently patented something to detect stream types I think - so why couldn't they just 'detect' mpeg2 - not dual buffer those streams - and only dual buffer MPEG4 ?


That Patent is really for Dual Tuner functionality (not Dual Live Buffer) and the reference is to MPEG which implicitly means both MPEG2 and MPEG4. In addition, DIRECTV has licensed the use of all of TiVo's Patents through 2010 and recently picked up ReplayTV (likely for the Patents).


----------



## bhelton71

Doug Brott said:


> That Patent is really for Dual Tuner functionality (not Dual Live Buffer) and the reference is to MPEG which implicitly means both MPEG2 and MPEG4. In addition, DIRECTV has licensed the use of all of TiVo's Patents through 2010 and recently picked up ReplayTV (likely for the Patents).


You're right of course - "wherein said TV signals are based on a multitude of standards, including, but not limited to" - thats frustrating - I obviously would not be a good lawyer. My clients would be SOL. 

Well that's interesting - 2010 - so in 2010 would the phrase: "The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program. " - come into play ? I mean that is open enough you could say any device that has a background tuner is subject to that language - and therefore in direct infringement.

I used to like Tivo - I am starting to lose any respect for them the more I read this stupid patent. There has to be a way around this crap - doesn't it stifle competition or something? Obviously they don't have any kind of workable marketing model - a DVR should be coupled with a service (not just a guide service - but real content ).


----------



## davemayo

bhelton71 said:


> There has to be a way around this crap - doesn't it stifle competition or something?


Patents are legalized monopolies. They give the patent owner the right to exclude others from making, using or selling the claimed invention for a limited time. In exchange for the monopoly, the patentee has to disclose the invention to the public so that others can improve on it, etc.


----------



## Doug Brott

I suspect that in 2010 that DIRECTV will have all of their bases covered with respect to the Patent issues it may have at that time.


----------



## looter

bhelton71 said:


> I used to like Tivo - I am starting to lose any respect for them the more I read this stupid patent. There has to be a way around this crap - doesn't it stifle competition or something? Obviously they don't have any kind of workable marketing model - a DVR should be coupled with a service (not just a guide service - but real content ).


I have a feeling you might feel otherwise if you owned the patent. After all this is business and not a public service.


----------



## davemayo

looter said:


> I have a feeling you might feel otherwise if you owned the patent. After all this is business and not a public service.


Right, and there is no requirement that a patentee make/sell any product that practices the claimed invention. Patents can be, and are, used strictly for generating revenue through litigation/licensing.


----------



## IndyTom

Sorry - trying to catch up here. 

How does Tivo's patents come into play with the numerous other DVRs that have their own version of DLB?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

IndyTom said:


> Sorry - trying to catch up here.
> 
> How does Tivo's patents come into play with the numerous other DVRs that have their own version of DLB?


This is just my opinion but....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1337936&postcount=2253

Mike


----------



## Que

IndyTom said:


> Sorry - trying to catch up here.
> 
> How does Tivo's patents come into play with the numerous other DVRs that have their own version of DLB?


It's on the 1st page but, I'll list what DVRs we know to have DLB.

TiVo Line S3-HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## Steve

Que said:


> FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


Are we sure about this one? Dual tuners, yes, but I was playing with one recently, and if there are DLB's, I guess I didn't know how to toggle them. /steve

EDIT: I see here it will be available soon. Apparently this s/w release hadn't rolled-out to the unit I was testing.


----------



## bhelton71

looter said:


> I have a feeling you might feel otherwise if you owned the patent. After all this is business and not a public service.


I am quite sure I would feel very differently. But in this case I am just John Q. Consumer so its just frustrating to view things in this light. I have decided I really do like dual buffers - while realizing its an added value feature - a commodity if you like. The frustration is - I like HD, I like DirecTV, and I like dual buffers. But I can only truely have 2 out of 3 in any combination:

A HD + DirecTV = no DLB
B HD + DLB = no DirecTV
C DirecTV + DLB = no HD

Thats just how it is - I can take it or leave it - thats a choice I make. So I am keeping DirecTV and HD which at this point is Choice A.

And I am not venting or angry or any of that, and I am not going to threaten to cancel, etc. As I mentioned I believe it is a value-added feature and would only serve to enhance the offering - but probably not a core function. Just at a loss for understanding the situation - if its not IP, and I am pretty confident the new h/w has far more horsepower than the HR10 did so probably not h/w - that doesn't leave a whole lot of reasons to not do it. And it would be a lovely bullet on the packaging (in case any marketing folks are reading).

Or maybe they're just trying to be mean, of course.


----------



## MikeR7

bhelton71 said:


> I am quite sure I would feel very differently. But in this case I am just John Q. Consumer so its just frustrating to view things in this light. I have decided I really do like dual buffers - while realizing its an added value feature - a commodity if you like. The frustration is - I like HD, I like DirecTV, and I like dual buffers. But I can only truely have 2 out of 3 in any combination:
> 
> A HD + DirecTV = no DLB
> B HD + DLB = no DirecTV
> C DirecTV + DLB = no HD
> 
> Thats just how it is - I can take it or leave it - thats a choice I make. So I am keeping DirecTV and HD which at this point is Choice A.
> 
> And I am not venting or angry or any of that, and I am not going to threaten to cancel, etc. As I mentioned I believe it is a value-added feature and would only serve to enhance the offering - but probably not a core function. Just at a loss for understanding the situation - if its not IP, and I am pretty confident the new h/w has far more horsepower than the HR10 did so probably not h/w - that doesn't leave a whole lot of reasons to not do it. And it would be a lovely bullet on the packaging (in case any marketing folks are reading).
> 
> Or maybe they're just trying to be mean, of course.


There is one more choice. You could have kept your HR10 and used it for everything but the MPEG-4 channels. If you have OTA HD, even more useful. Won't be as useful when all the MPEG-2 moves to MPEG-4, but maybe by then DirecTV™ will have a DLB solution.


----------



## raott

Steve said:


> Are we sure about this one? Dual tuners, yes, but I was playing with one recently, and if there are DLB's, I guess I didn't know how to toggle them. /steve
> 
> EDIT: I see here it will be available soon. Apparently this s/w release hadn't rolled-out to the unit I was testing.


The last time we discussed this I think it was determined that FIOS software implementation of the 6416 did not have DLB.

However, the 6416 will absolutely do DLB's with the I-guide software. Hit the swap button and it will swap tuners. I know Comcast and Insight both use I-guide, not sure who else does.

From the 6416/I-guide manual:

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf

See page 36 for the "Swap" feature. Here is a bit of what it says:

"Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner. The SWAP feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
• You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
• Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
Note: The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs. If you change channels without using the SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


----------



## Milominderbinder2

If you are part of the CE beta test team, check out:

HR20: New DLB Workaround

The new fix to the PAUSE button reduces the DLB setup workaround setup from 14 steps to 3 to setup.

Toggling between the buffers is now 1 or 2 keystrokes depending on your usage. Fixing the PREV button could make it even easier.

Note: This is not a replacement for DLB, just a better workaround.

Again, that link and forum are only for users who have volunteered to be CE software testers.

- Craig


----------



## Milominderbinder2

IndyTom said:


> Sorry - trying to catch up here.
> 
> How does Tivo's patents come into play with the numerous other DVRs that have their own version of DLB?


DIRECTV has full access to TiVo's patent portfolio:

TiVo Contract/Patent Licenses Extended Through 2010 Business Week's Account
• _TiVo (TIVO) announced yesterday that they have extended their agreement with DirecTV Group (DTV) for three years. In addition to this, both parties have agreed to not assert patent rights against each other. The previous agreement was due to expire in 2007. _

However DIRECTV's purchase of ReplayTV may make that a mute point.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dreplay121307.htm

Note that ReplayTV and TiVo agreed to not sue each other over patents:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/emergingtech/0,1000000183,2125720,00.htm

There were two ways to get to town. DIRECTV just bought the other way.

- Craig


----------



## rapjrhb

Milominderbinder2 said:


> If you are part of the CE beta test team, check out:
> 
> HR20: New DLB Workaround
> 
> The new fix to the PAUSE button reduces the DLB setup workaround setfrom 14 steps to 3 to setup.
> 
> Toggling between the buffers is now 1 or 2 keystrokes depending on your usage. Fixing the PREV button could make it even easier.
> 
> Note: This is not a replacement for DLB, just a better workaround.
> 
> Again, that link and forum are only for users who have volunteered to be CE software testers.
> 
> - Craig


Thanks for documenting this workaround, Craig. I look forward to seeing it in the national release.


----------



## boltjames

Milominderbinder2 said:


> If you are part of the CE beta test team, check out:
> 
> HR20: New DLB Workaround
> 
> The new fix to the PAUSE button reduces the DLB setup workaround setfrom 14 steps to 3 to setup.
> 
> Toggling between the buffers is now 1 or 2 keystrokes depending on your usage. Fixing the PREV button could make it even easier.
> 
> Note: This is not a replacement for DLB, just a better workaround.
> 
> Again, that link and forum are only for users who have volunteered to be CE software testers.
> 
> - Craig


I disapprove of this as D* should be spending more time on more important developments.

Merry Christmas to all.

BJ


----------



## jheda

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

and a happy new year....


boltjames said:


> I disapprove of this as D* should be spending more time on more important developments.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all.
> 
> BJ


----------



## ShiningBengal

tiger2005 said:


> Isn't the HR20 $800 to purchase outright??? WOW, that's pretty expensive 5 years (?) after the HR10 launched. Sounds more like a BMW than a Camry to me.


That was never a "real" price. Anyone who pays that kind of premium to "own" something that can't be used without buying a service is not using his noodle. Electronics depreciate 50% upon opening the box.


----------



## ShiningBengal

cartrivision said:


> Not to nitpick, but on the day it was released it was *in* it's first year, so at 3.5 years old, it is in it's fourth year.:yesman:


Very true. I used to get into clubs by telling them I was in my 21st year (I was 20.)


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> I disapprove of this as D* should be spending more time on more important developments.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all.
> 
> BJ


Um, are there any CE testers that work for DirecTV? I thought that this referred to the SLB changes in the latest CE release and a way to use them, but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## ronrico51

I will be switching to Dish after my commitment is up, because of DLB and the lack of the "pause point" feature. Cost is almost identical for the 2 providers for HD DVR service, and I don't care about sports packages like EI and ST. DTV has no edge for me.


----------



## Drew2k

ronrico51 said:


> I will be switching to Dish after my commitment is up, because of DLB and the lack of the "pause point" feature. Cost is almost identical for the 2 providers for HD DVR service, and I don't care about sports packages like EI and ST. DTV has no edge for me.


How long before your commitment is up? Current test software is maintaining the pause point, and will likely be available nationally within the next two months. (See the Cutting Edge forum for more information about test software.)


----------



## OneOfOne

I used to like Tivo - I am starting to lose any respect for them the more I read this stupid patent. There has to be a way around this crap - doesn't it stifle competition or something? Obviously they don't have any kind of workable marketing model - a DVR should be coupled with a service (not just a guide service - but real content ).


this is a ridiculous comment. what do you think you would have your lawyers do if you came up with an invention that could be patented? do you think you would be lenient or vague when it came to applying your rights to your patent? I am not a lawyer but this is just absurd whining. kinda like everyone who isnt rich *****ing because others are. let it go. the people at fault here are directv execs who at the time figured it was better to go without licensing fees, obviously to be found in error since they just bought replay's IP.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dual buffers is not a patent issue. It was feature choice based. 

And there is nothing saying the feature will never be added; just that other items, in DIRECTV's mind, had higher priority.

Merry Christmas!
Tom


----------



## ShiningBengal

bhelton71 said:


> So I understand that DLB would probably infringe on Tivos patent (United States Patent 6233389 ). But I don't understand this: as far as I can tell Tivos patent only references MPEG2 - how can it possibly cover MPEG4 ? Directv recently patented something to detect stream types I think - so why couldn't they just 'detect' mpeg2 - not dual buffer those streams - and only dual buffer MPEG4 ?


You haven't read the patent very thoroughly. It doesn't reference MPEG2 or MPEG4...only MPEG, and specifically not to exclude other encoding schemes.


----------



## ShiningBengal

OneOfOne said:


> I used to like Tivo - I am starting to lose any respect for them the more I read this stupid patent. There has to be a way around this crap - doesn't it stifle competition or something? Obviously they don't have any kind of workable marketing model - a DVR should be coupled with a service (not just a guide service - but real content ).
> 
> this is a ridiculous comment. what do you think you would have your lawyers do if you came up with an invention that could be patented? do you think you would be lenient or vague when it came to applying your rights to your patent? I am not a lawyer but this is just absurd whining. kinda like everyone who isnt rich *****ing because others are. let it go. the people at fault here are directv execs who at the time figured it was better to go without licensing fees, obviously to be found in error since they just bought replay's IP.


Precisely. Patents are not for the purpose of preventing competition. The purpose of patents is to encourage innovation, and in so doing, they promote competition to build the better moustrap and not merely copy someone else's.

Without patent protection, no one would ever take the risk of investing the huge $$$ necessary to bring an idea into fruition.


----------



## poppo

ShiningBengal said:


> Precisely. Patents are not for the purpose of preventing competition. The purpose of patents is to encourage innovation, and in so doing, they promote competition to build the better moustrap and not merely copy someone else's.
> 
> Without patent protection, no one would ever take the risk of investing the huge $$$ necessary to bring an idea into fruition.


The problem with patents is when they are put on 'functions' and not the actual implementation or hardware. It's sort of hard to build that better mousetrap when someone has patented the whole concept of trapping mice.


----------



## davemayo

poppo said:


> The problem with patents is when they are put on 'functions' and not the actual implementation or hardware. It's sort of hard to build that better mousetrap when someone has patented the whole concept of trapping mice.


Even if someone has a patent on a "function" you can still get your own patent in this situation. You can patent a new apparatus for performing the function. You can patent a better method of performing the function. Remember, patents do not allow the patentee to do anything; they allow the patentee to exclude others from practicing the invention.

Sorry, this is way off topic.


----------



## vicmeldrew

ronrico51 said:


> I will be switching to Dish after my commitment is up, because of DLB and the lack of the "pause point" feature. Cost is almost identical for the 2 providers for HD DVR service, and I don't care about sports packages like EI and ST. DTV has no edge for me.


i will be leaving soon also, my tv viewing habits revolve around dual buffers almost 100 percent and i will not give that up. if dtv decides to provide the dlb to its members then i will come back, but until then they have the right to do what they want and i have the right to leave - about the middle of February.


----------



## poppo

davemayo said:


> Even if someone has a patent on a "function" you can still get your own patent in this situation. You can patent a new apparatus for performing the function. You can patent a better method of performing the function. Remember, patents do not allow the patentee to do anything; they allow the patentee to exclude others from practicing the invention.
> 
> Sorry, this is way off topic.


It's not really off topic as part of the speculation on DLB is over patents. But I thought these 'function' patents are what is causing all of the problems between DVR makers. If they are all using different methods to accomplish the same thing or better, why are the patent lawsuits flying?


----------



## Tom Robertson

The patent suits that are out there generally relate to basic DVR functions of recording to disk while also watching the same or other recorded materials at the same time. I've yet to hear of a patent that relates to the concept of doubling that into a DLB. Everything I've heard from my sources and read in the forums is that patents do not apply to the DLB issue in and of itself.

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Tom


----------



## MikeR7

I was driving from our home to the Twin Cities for a Christmas visit with family. Drove through a town called Colby, Wisconsin, and noticed a sign with a big DLB on it. Looked closer and it said DLB Motorsports. Had to laugh when I saw that DLB was defined at the bottom of the sign as, "DON'T LOOK BACK" :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## MikeR7

vicmeldrew said:


> i will be leaving soon also, my tv viewing habits revolve around dual buffers almost 100 percent and i will not give that up. if dtv decides to provide the dlb to its members then i will come back, but until then they have the right to do what they want and i have the right to leave - about the middle of February.


I really feel for you guys. Hope you enjoy your new provider!! :lol: :lol:


----------



## inkahauts

vicmeldrew said:


> i will be leaving soon also, my tv viewing habits revolve around dual buffers almost 100 percent and i will not give that up. if dtv decides to provide the dlb to its members then i will come back, but until then they have the right to do what they want and i have the right to leave - about the middle of February.


Do you only watch sports? or do you watch everything on tv including series using DLB. I'm just curious. I personally have just never found the need for DLB unless its for sports... And even then I will always record the important games too, because you never know if someone is going to hit the wrong button on my remote and change the channel and I'll loose my delayed portion of the important game....


----------



## vicmeldrew

inkahauts said:


> Do you only watch sports? or do you watch everything on tv including series using DLB. I'm just curious. I personally have just never found the need for DLB unless its for sports... And even then I will always record the important games too, because you never know if someone is going to hit the wrong button on my remote and change the channel and I'll loose my delayed portion of the important game....


i do watch a lot of sports, however the db is also an issue for me with regular viewing, for example, in the mornings i will have one tuner set to the local news and the other to a national channel such as fox news or cnn and while eating breakfast will scan both buffers for stories that interest me or my wife.

in the evenings, if i do not have a show recorded i want to watch i will have a show on live and watch it until commercials come on and surf or watch a second show on the other buffer.

i understand it is my preference but i do not spend a lot of time sitting around watching 15 to 20 minutes of commercials each hour - that is why i have a dvr.


----------



## fasTLane

vicmeldrew said:


> however the db is also an issue for me with regular viewing, for example, in the mornings i will have one tuner set to the local news and the other to a national channel such as fox news or cnn and while eating breakfast will scan both buffers for stories that interest me or my wife.
> in the evenings, if i do not have a show recorded i want to watch i will have a show on live and watch it until commercials come on and surf or watch a second show on the other buffer.


My sentiments exactly.
I have come to rely on this capabilty quite a bit. 
You have to feel for all those hopeful adopters out there that may never see 
this feature added to their hardware "choice". :crying:


----------



## LOBO2999

My wife and I use it every day , hell I'm using it right now .


----------



## Que

A must have! 2602 77.28%
Don't really care about it. 168 4.99%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 597 17.73%
Voters: 3367

Replies 2,342
Views 123,677


----------



## christo76

vicmeldrew said:


> i do watch a lot of sports, however the db is also an issue for me with regular viewing, for example, in the mornings i will have one tuner set to the local news and the other to a national channel such as fox news or cnn and while eating breakfast will scan both buffers for stories that interest me or my wife.
> 
> in the evenings, if i do not have a show recorded i want to watch i will have a show on live and watch it until commercials come on and surf or watch a second show on the other buffer.
> 
> i understand it is my preference but i do not spend a lot of time sitting around watching 15 to 20 minutes of commercials each hour - that is why i have a dvr.


 I want to second this. DLB for sports was always a secondary use for me. I really used it for getting local weather on the news or a specific story. Place one tuner on the news and the other can surf for a show to watch. Eventually you come back to the news and you can skip/ff through it till you find the weather or story you want. Or when there you are just bumming on a couch and there is nothing on, so you just put a couple shows on and skip back and forth. All these are points where recording the show is not worth the effort, or where you may be changing it soon and don't care to pile-up 3-4+ shows in your list that you will have to remember to delete.


----------



## ToddinVA

Que said:


> A must have! 2602 77.28%
> Don't really care about it. 168 4.99%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 597 17.73%
> Voters: 3367
> 
> Replies 2,342
> Views 123,677


So 95.01% of people here want it. That's pretty overwhelming if you ask me... :eek2:


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> So 95.01% of people here want it. That's pretty overwhelming if you ask me... :eek2:


No, only 77% of 3,300 users that were complelled to vote due to their unhappiness want it.

The other 23% of 3,300 users could care less.

Most importantly, millions of satisfied HR20 owners who didn't open this thread could care less. From Broadcast Newsroom:

"Is the marketing push paying off for DirecTV? The company's third-quarter operating results provided some insight. DirecTV doesn't disclose how many new customers specifically take its HD package, but in the three months ended Sept. 30, more than 50% of the 1 million new subscribers signed up for advanced services, which include HD and DVR. That is up from 28% in the same quarter a year earlier. DirecTV has a total of 16.5 million subscribers."

Let's pretend for a moment that the 50% number using HD is representitive of the total D* subscriber base of 16,500,000. That's 8,250,000 HD users. Now, let's say that only 30% of them have an HR20, the rest with older equipment or non-DVR's. That's 2,475,000 HR20 owners.

Looking at the poll through these eyes, 2,602 users on approximately 2,475,000 HR20 owners and we're talking about one tenth of one percent of the HR20 owner base that is known to care about DLB. And lets's say my math is wrong by a factor of 10. Could be. Why not. Not everyone comes to DBS to complain. Maybe less than 50% of D* subscribers bit on HD. Factor of 10. Let's be aggressive. That's still only 1%.

And that, dear friends, is your answer to why D* removed DLB from its proprietary DVR and why they have no plans to bring it back.

Lack of interest.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> No, only 77% of 3,300 users that were complelled to vote due to their unhappiness want it.
> 
> The other 23% of 3,300 users could care less.
> 
> Most importantly, millions of satisfied HR20 owners who didn't open this thread could care less. From Broadcast Newsroom:
> 
> "Is the marketing push paying off for DirecTV? The company's third-quarter operating results provided some insight. DirecTV doesn't disclose how many new customers specifically take its HD package, but in the three months ended Sept. 30, more than 50% of the 1 million new subscribers signed up for advanced services, which include HD and DVR. That is up from 28% in the same quarter a year earlier. DirecTV has a total of 16.5 million subscribers."
> 
> Let's pretend for a moment that the 50% number using HD is representitive of the total D* subscriber base of 16,500,000. That's 8,250,000 HD users. Now, let's say that only 30% of them have an HR20, the rest with older equipment or non-DVR's. That's 2,475,000 HR20 owners.
> 
> Looking at the poll through these eyes, 2,602 users on approximately 2,475,000 HR20 owners and we're talking about one tenth of one percent of the HR20 owner base that is known to care about DLB. And lets's say my math is wrong by a factor of 10. Could be. Why not. Not everyone comes to DBS to complain. Maybe less than 50% of D* subscribers bit on HD. Factor of 10. Let's be aggressive. That's still only 1%.
> 
> And that, dear friends, is your answer to why D* removed DLB from its proprietary DVR and why they have no plans to bring it back.
> 
> Lack of interest.
> 
> BJ


Wow, that is some creative math taking our small DBSTalk population (which is growing nicely, thank you very much) as a direct representation of the population at large. 

I bet we can use representative statistics as a much better indicator. Admittedly the people here are not likely a perfect random sample of the HD DVR populace at DIRECTV, it sure is a legitimate indicator of overall interest. And again, as I've stated before, likely a leading indicator of a feature that will grow in popularity as more and more DVR users become familiar with the features of today.

Happy Holidays!
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm just continually amazed by BJ's anti-DLB obsession. Only a DirecTV employee himself would be so adamant against such a well-loved and popular feature. There are other TIVO features the HR20 didn't adopt, yet for some reason BJ keeps focusing on DLB. 

BTW, his example is quite tenuous at best.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The nice thing is people with an agenda to get something not talked about tend to talk about it, keeping the whole discussion alive for a long, long time. Until we get DLB that is.


----------



## ToddinVA

Bolt, that is the most creative math I've ever seen. lol!


----------



## fasTLane

boltjames said:


> ...And that, dear friends, is your answer to why D* removed DLB from its proprietary DVR and why they have no plans to bring it back.
> 
> *Lack of interest.*


Interesting.

Quite a few DLB capable hd-dvrs (with fairly modest HD content) were eagerly purchased for up to $1000 when first introduced.

Anyone here make that kind of commitment toward their shiny new DLB challenged hd-dvr? :nono:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

fasTLane said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Quite a few DLB capable hd-dvrs (with fairly modest HD content) were eagerly purchased for up to $1000 when first introduced.
> 
> Anyone here make that kind of commitment toward their shiny new DLB challenged hd-dvr? :nono:


Didn't have to...

And that $1000 commitment on the HR10-250 had zero to do with it having DLB... at least in my case, it was done because it was an HD DVR and I could record TWO things at once in HD


----------



## woj027

I had a Dream last night that DLB would be here in 2008. Does that mean it's going to happen?


----------



## beer_geek

Earl Bonovich said:


> Didn't have to...
> 
> And that $1000 commitment on the HR10-250 had zero to do with it having DLB... at least in my case, it was done because it was an HD DVR and I could record TWO things at once in HD


If we extrapolate Earl's comment. 100% of HR10-250 customers got it because "I could record TWO things at once in HD". That means there is no other feature that anyone wants in the HR2x and DirecTV is wasting its time on developing features.


----------



## rapjrhb

ToddinVA said:


> Bolt, that is the most creative math I've ever seen. lol!


I'm going to give BJ the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's not stupid and doesn't actually believe what he is saying. That leads me to believe that he really just has some personal agenda to try and convince the people in this forum that most people don't want DLB (despite the overwhelming poll results). I don't know what would cause him to have that agenda but it's enough to make it clear that, despite his 100+ posts on this thread, he has nothing positive to add to the DLB topic.


----------



## ToddinVA

rapjrhb said:


> I'm going to give BJ the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's not stupid and doesn't actually believe what he is saying. That leads me to believe that he really just has some personal agenda to try and convince the people in this forum that most people don't want DLB (despite the overwhelming poll results). I don't know what would cause him to have that agenda but it's enough to make it clear that, despite his 100+ posts on this thread, he has nothing positive to add to the DLB topic.


Ah, the infamous vast Anti-Dual Live Buffer conspiracy rears its ugly head! :lol:


----------



## ShiningBengal

ToddinVA said:


> Ah, the infamous vast Anti-Dual Live Buffer conspiracy rears it's ugly head! :lol:


The only problem with that conclusion is that it takes more than one to form a conspiracy.


----------



## Lord Vader

And shouldn't conspirators know how to use the word "its" properly?


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> I'm just continually amazed by BJ's anti-DLB obsession. Only a DirecTV employee himself would be so adamant against such a well-loved and popular feature. There are other TIVO features the HR20 didn't adopt, yet for some reason BJ keeps focusing on DLB.


If DLB was such a well-loved and popular feature, why didn't D* just move it on over from the HR10 to its own, new, proprietary DVR?

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> If DLB was such a well-loved and popular feature, why didn't D* just move it on over from the HR10 to its own, new, proprietary DVR?
> 
> BJ


Asked and answered. And one has nothing to do with the other. (For example, if TiVo was such a well-loved interface, why didn't DIRECTV just move it on over from the HR10? Also asked and answered.)

Next?


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> Wow, that is some creative math taking our small DBSTalk population (which is growing nicely, thank you very much) as a direct representation of the population at large.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


Yes, creative math for sure. But my conclusions aren't that far off. We're not talking iPod battery life or Nano screen scratching here. We're not looking at mass outrage, media uproar, corporate posturing, and an official statement on "the problem".

We're talking about 2,602 passionate DVR superusers out of millions of satisfied Camry owners. There's no uproar, no fuss. No buzz. No Al Sharpton taking up the cause on the news at night.

It's a nice-to-have that D* decided to delete due to lack of use and lack of interest. It's never coming back. We know why.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> If DLB was such a well-loved and popular feature, why didn't D* just move it on over from the HR10 to its own, new, proprietary DVR?
> 
> BJ


"Just move it on over..." You make it sound like a simple software subroutine library that could be ported from the HR10 the HR20.

Or in Hoosier-speak "Alls youse gots to do is..."


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Asked and answered. And one has nothing to do with the other. (For example, if TiVo was such a well-loved interface, why didn't DIRECTV just move it on over from the HR10? Also asked and answered.)
> 
> Next?


Well I guess that the Tivo wasn't such a well-loved interface or it would be on the HR20. D* could just buy Tivo for pennies, get the UI to themselves, and implement it on their proprietary DVR. If it were that important to D*, they'd have done just that. Instead, they took the more curious route of developing their own STB, rolling the dice that the D* subscriber base would prefer it to the Tivo.

Turns out their risk was justified, their decision validated. It's not the UI or the tweaky features that makes for a good DVR. It's about reliability and functionality. A Mercedes is very different to drive than a Honda, but in the end each vehicle has a steering wheel, gas pedal, gearshift lever, brakes, and tires. To the consumer that just wants to get from point A to point B, its about the wheels, not the nuances that make the handling so different.

DLB falls right into this model. That which is important to D* and their subscriber base was retained and/or improved. That which was not important, wasn't.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> "Just move it on over..." You make it sound like a simple software subroutine library that could be ported from the HR10 the HR20.
> 
> Or in Hoosier-speak "Alls youse gots to do is..."


From what I've read in this thread, DLB is already "there" as two programs are buffering simultaneously. It's just that D* doesn't let you toggle between them. And I can't imagine that anything found in the Tivo UI circa 1998 hasn't been reverse-engineered by now, what with processor improvements, RAM enhancements, and drive space being what they are.

In simplest terms, if it needed to be in there it would be in there, right? D* has made so many fantastic improvements in the HR20 over the HR10 that this one should have been a, in Hoosier-speak, "layup", no?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

fasTLane said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Quite a few DLB capable hd-dvrs (with fairly modest HD content) were eagerly purchased for up to $1000 when first introduced.
> 
> Anyone here make that kind of commitment toward their shiny new DLB challenged hd-dvr? :nono:


Good stuff. Really good.

Helps support Anti-DLB Theory #21 which goes....

You can't compare the HR10 to the HR20 as they are two different machines built for two different customers at two different points in D*/HDTV history. The HR10 was built as a rich-man's plaything. A serious technical achievement. For that 1% early adopter audience that was already tech enough to embrace satellite TV and could afford to get an HDTV. For _them_, for _those _people, $1000 was nothing. Just another pile of money to get the very best picture and recording capabilities. For them, for _those _videophiles, something like DLB might be useful.

Flash forward to today, and the HR20 is a Camry to the HR10's Bentley. A mass product designed for a mass audience to take D* from a minor player to a major one. Bigger, easier to read guides and menus for that aging baby boomer's tired eyes. Faster navigation to reduce frustration. Softkeys on a big-button remote for your 8 year old to comprehend. Rock solid recording capabilities for no missed shows, dropouts, or black screens. Anything that could cause a product failure was eliminated. Anything that could be construed as necessary to combat other set-top convergence devices reluctantly added. Based on a cellphone model, you don't buy it, you just rent it on a monthly basis, making it affordable for every mom, pop, and grandson who wants it.

If you buy into T21, you realize that DLB could be appreciated by an HR10 owner but is insignificant to the HR20 owner. We're going from tech savvy early adopters to those that kept their VCR clocks blinking on "12:00" for years at a time here. That's why the "stop" button and the "back" button were added and DLB was removed. The dumbing down of DVR America.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

rapjrhb said:


> I'm going to give BJ the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's not stupid and doesn't actually believe what he is saying. That leads me to believe that he really just has some personal agenda to try and convince the people in this forum that most people don't want DLB (despite the overwhelming poll results). I don't know what would cause him to have that agenda but it's enough to make it clear that, despite his 100+ posts on this thread, he has nothing positive to add to the DLB topic.


My personal agenda is a simple one:

There is so much good in the HR20 that the lack of this one tweaky feature that appeals to a fraction of the D* subscriber base shouldn't get this much press on DBS. Furthermore, I contend that those that can't see all the greatness that has been added to the HR20 and cannot let DLB go for the sake of all those other great features gained in the tradeoff are acting selfishly and are letting the wrong emotion get the best of them.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Good stuff. Really good.
> 
> Helps support Anti-DLB Theory #21 which goes....
> 
> You can't compare the HR10 to the HR20 as they are two different machines built for two different customers at two different points in D*/HDTV history. The HR10 was built as a rich-man's plaything. A serious technical achievement. For that 1% early adopter audience that was already tech enough to embrace satellite TV and could afford to get an HDTV. For _them_, for _those _people, $1000 was nothing. Just another pile of money to get the very best picture and recording capabilities. For them, for _those _videophiles, something like DLB might be useful.
> 
> Flash forward to today, and the HR20 is a Camry to the HR10's Bentley. A mass product designed for a mass audience to take D* from a minor player to a major one. Bigger, easier to read guides and menus for that aging baby boomer's tired eyes. Faster navigation to reduce frustration. Softkeys on a big-button remote for your 8 year old to comprehend. Rock solid recording capabilities for no missed shows, dropouts, or black screens. Anything that could cause a product failure was eliminated. Anything that could be construed as necessary to combat other set-top convergence devices reluctantly added. Based on a cellphone model, you don't buy it, you just rent it on a monthly basis, making it affordable for every mom, pop, and grandson who wants it.
> 
> If you buy into T21, you realize that DLB could be appreciated by an HR10 owner but is insignificant to the HR20 owner. We're going from tech savvy early adopters to those that kept their VCR clocks blinking on "12:00" for years at a time here. That's why the "stop" button and the "back" button were added and DLB was removed. The dumbing down of DVR America.
> 
> BJ


And as usual, you forget that the original SDTiVo that was introduced 7+ years ago had DLB. That was NOT a $1,000 box and WAS designed for the masses. HD isn't even the point when it comes to DLB. Period.


----------



## ShiningBengal

ToddinVA said:


> And as usual, you forget that the original SDTiVo that was introduced 7+ years ago had DLB. That was NOT a $1,000 box and WAS designed for the masses. HD isn't even the point when it comes to DLB. Period.


Don't confuse him with facts. His scenario is too well developed for him to re-write it now!


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> Ah, the infamous vast Anti-Dual Live Buffer conspiracy rears its ugly head!


Now before we take this as the joke you intended, let's consider the following:

1. D* designed and engineered their proprietary DVR themselves. A labor of love. Something critical to the company's future. The D* conduit to every living room in America.

2. The D* design team included several designers and engineers who were very likely power HR10 users. Not just your average run-of-the-mill types recording Brady Bunch re-runs, but bonafide, hardcore videophiles.

3. The D* design team worked very hard on building the 'perfect' DVR. Several innovative features were added, menus made faster, refinements to the UI made continually. D* is really taking this product seriously, reacting quickly, striving for perfection.

4. DLB isn't a feature on the product. It's not even a feature on the horizon.

5. We know from Earl that there isn't a technical problem preventing DLB implementation. Its not there because D* doesn't want it there.

So you're left with some conspiracy-like possibilities:

A. Major in-fighting between the design team over the validity of DLB. Some used it religiously, some not at all. Lots of time taken to debate it, cost it out, weigh its merits. After a long, hard fight, DLB loses by a narrow margin and is begrudgingly crossed off the whiteboard.

B. No in-fighting whatsoever. At the first HR20 brainstorming session of what stays and what goes, DLB gets a big yawn from everyone in the room and is not even added to the whiteboard.

Was there a conspiracy? Did a group protest its inclusion and kill it? Did power HR10 users on the design team not use it and disregard it? Was it an extra $3 in cost that the Chinese factory could not absorb? There's got to be a juicy backstory here. Can't deal with the book, but I'll buy a ticket to the movie.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> My personal agenda is a simple one:
> 
> There is so much good in the HR20 that the lack of this one tweaky feature that appeals to a fraction of the D* subscriber base shouldn't get this much press on DBS. Furthermore, I contend that those that can't see all the greatness that has been added to the HR20 and cannot let DLB go for the sake of all those other great features gained in the tradeoff are acting selfishly and are letting the wrong emotion get the best of them.
> 
> BJ


Again, if you stop posting in this thread, it will not get "this much press." Most of the posts lately are either yours or responses to your posts.

DLB is a standard feature on many DVRs, Yugo to Bently.

And I see many people who want DLBs also heavily participating in the various "Thank you" threads dedicated to DIRECTV and the HR2x family. So I don't think there are very many people that "can't see all the greatness that has been added to the HR20..." as you state.

Happy New Year!
Tom


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> And as usual, you forget that the original SDTiVo that was introduced 7+ years ago had DLB. That was NOT a $1,000 box and WAS designed for the masses. HD isn't even the point when it comes to DLB. Period.


7+ years ago, in the eyes of the average American, satellite TV was still referred to as a 12 foot dish on your front lawn, and changing from one channel to another meant waiting for gyroscopes and motors to lock in on a different object in space. Anyone with D* was a pioneer to a degree, and those making their STB's were free to play around with this new technology and new audience.

And don't forget that the original Tivo was chock-full of innovative new ideas. Some were great and still stick to this day, some were lousy and aren't around anymore. Point is that 2000 didn't feature a mass D* audience the way 2007 does. And if DLB was a core feature of Tivo's, well, the HR20 isn't a Tivo. And I mean that in the very best of ways. We gain so much over an HR10 in an HR20, who misses one tweaky feature in light of all the other great new ones?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> Again, if you stop posting in this thread, it will not get "this much press." Most of the posts lately are either yours or responses to your posts.
> 
> DLB is a standard feature on many DVRs, Yugo to Bently.
> 
> And I see many people who want DLBs also heavily participating in the various "Thank you" threads dedicated to DIRECTV and the HR2x family. So I don't think there are very many people that "can't see all the greatness that has been added to the HR20..." as you state.
> 
> Happy New Year!
> Tom


I read this post aloud to my HR20, and I swear I thought I heard him whisper "thank you" through his vent holes.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> 7+ years ago, in the eyes of the average American, satellite TV was still referred to as a 12 foot dish on your front lawn, and changing from one channel to another meant waiting for gyroscopes and motors to lock in on a different object in space. Anyone with D* was a pioneer to a degree, and those making their STB's were free to play around with this new technology and new audience.
> 
> And don't forget that the original Tivo was chock-full of innovative new ideas. Some were great and still stick to this day, some were lousy and aren't around anymore. Point is that 2000 didn't feature a mass D* audience the way 2007 does. And if DLB was a core feature of Tivo's, well, the HR20 isn't a Tivo. And I mean that in the very best of ways. We gain so much over an HR10 in an HR20, who misses one tweaky feature in light of all the other great new ones?
> 
> BJ


I do! 

(And your opinion is noted, but it definitely is not a "tweak feature".)


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> I do!
> 
> (And your opinion is noted, but it definitely is not a "tweak feature".)


Fine. I love your forum and want to make you happy so I'll get an audience with someone major at D* next week in Vegas and do what I can for you.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> If DLB was such a well-loved and popular feature, why didn't D* just move it on over from the HR10 to its own, new, proprietary DVR?
> 
> BJ


Reading posts earlier in this thread you'd see that Directv was working out how to implement *DLB*. Directv told Earl and Earl told us. You'll find plenty of posts to support this.

*The following is IMHO...*
Directv didn't expect such a backlash over *DLB*. They started with _WOW_ features and revenue streams.

When all the fervor over *DLB* caught up with them, Directv was stuck trying to find a way not to have to make major changes to the feature set they had at time.

Directv said they were working on it but when the software rewrite would impede forward progress of current/scheduled featrues, the idea was shelved.

You could argue that the HR21-700 doesn't have it either but since there is really very little difference between the HR20 & HR21 (HR21 is not the next gen HD-DVR) the software templates, calls, routines were close enough (identical in some cases) that implementing *DLB* would have caused the same problems.
*End of IMHO*

We know for sure that it wasn't excluded out of hand because Directv said they were working on it.

As slim as it may be, at least we have a poll... 
(just a joke no need to endlessly berate me for the validity of an internet forum poll)

Not sure I know what you mean by "tweaky feature". I always thought tweak meant to fine tune, or to pinch something.

You seem to be implying that Directv didn't include it because nobody cares about it. Maybe I just don't get what you're trying to say about *DLB*.

Other than conjecture, theory, and supposition what basis do you have for Directv excluding *DLB* because most viewers don't want it?

Mike


----------



## ShiningBengal

BJ stats: 347 total posts, 300 since June 07. Started posting in this thread mid-July 07. Since then, nearly all of his posts on this forum have been to this thread.

He has far more posts to this thread than any other member--approximately 250 in five months.

He doesn't want DLB to be part of the HR20/21 feature set--for no apparent reason other than that others do.

Anyone other than I wondering just why he expends so much time and energy on a thread devoted to a feature he personally doesn't care about?


----------



## Doug Brott

As much as this has become a hot-button issue here at DBStalk.com, I have to assume that DIRECTV at least tried. I don't know why it's not there, but at this point, I have no reason to believe that it ever will be. If it is, I'll use it for sure, but I've given up waiting for it to happen.


----------



## Que

BJ just needs a hug!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Que said:


> BJ just needs a hug!


 !rolling

I really do think that once other providers catch up with the HD, plus the fact that *DLB* is a documented feature in so many other HD-DVR's that Directv will have to consider it in the next-gen DVR. Just an opinion but from a competition stand point it follows.

Mike


----------



## MarauderFH

Drew2k said:


> Assuming you want to "watch" channels 2 and 4 ... I tried to list every step required to establish the buffers/recordings on two channels; to swap the buffers/recordings; and to clean-up afterwards. I'm not sure if I overlooked anything or if any of these steps can be eliminated, so please take a close look at my steps ....
> 
> *A. To establish two "buffers" with one of them paused*:
> 
> *TiVo: 6 keystrokes:*
> 1. 2
> 2. ENTER
> 3. PAUSE
> 4. DOWN <-- background buffer is now paused on channel 2
> 5. 4
> 6. ENTER
> 
> *HR20: 11 keystrokes (or 7?)*
> 1. 2
> 2. ENTER
> 3. REC <-- program from channel 2 is added to top of playlist
> 4. 4
> 5. ENTER <-- tuner changes, with channel 2 now on "background" tuner, not paused
> 6. REC <-- program from channel 4 is now at top of playlist
> 
> 7. PAUSE <-- technically, you can press PAUSE here - it's "PAUSED" - but this pause isn't saved if you swap tuners, so instead ...
> 
> 7. LIST
> 8. PLAY <-- program from channel 4 is now played from beginning
> 9. STOP <-- automatically pauses channel 4 and returns to playlist
> 10. DOWN <-- selection changes to program from channel 2
> 11. PLAY <-- program from channel 2 now plays from beginning
> 
> *B. Now that the "buffers" are established, here's what it takes to "swap" buffers, saving the pause point and resuming play on the other "buffer":
> *
> *TiVo: 3 keystrokes*
> 1. PAUSE
> 2. DOWN
> 3. PLAY
> 
> *HR20: 3 keystrokes*
> 1. STOP
> 2. DOWN or UP <-- according to location in playlist
> 3. PLAY
> 
> *C. Here's what it takes to "cleanup" after "buffering":*
> 
> *TiVo: 0 keystrokes
> *-- Any channel change or scheduled recordings on both tuners will clear the buffer
> 
> *HR20: 5 keystrokes*
> 1. LIST
> 2. DASH
> 3. DASH <-- the first "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted; the next "recording buffer" moves up in the list"
> 4. DASH
> 5. DASH <-- the second "recording buffer" is stopped if still recording and is deleted
> 
> *Summary:* TiVo saves 5 keystrokes when establishing the buffers and 5 keystrokes when cleaning up. It's a wash when toggling buffers/recordings.
> 
> Did I miss anything?


I'm really missing the dual live buffers, as is my wife.

I'm using an HR21.

I tried this workaround and it doesn't work for me. First of all there are many more keystrokes as pressing stop brings you to the information panel for a particular recording, and will typically not go to the list straight away.

When I have two shows recording, if I stop one, then press "resume." It starts over again, unless it is no longer recording. Basically resuming anything that is recording starts it completely over.

This means even recording two shows at once, on gametime sunday I have to wade to 2-3 hours worth of old material to find where I was at, and usually spoils a bunch of plays in the process.

Why doesn't the resume feature work for me? Is this a known issue with the HR21?


----------



## kcorth

MarauderFH said:


> I'm really missing the dual live buffers, as is my wife.
> 
> I'm using an HR21.
> 
> I tried this workaround and it doesn't work for me. First of all there are many more keystrokes as pressing stop brings you to the information panel for a particular recording, and will typically not go to the list straight away.
> 
> When I have two shows recording, if I stop one, then press "resume." It starts over again, unless it is no longer recording. Basically resuming anything that is recording starts it completely over.
> 
> This means even recording two shows at once, on gametime sunday I have to wade to 2-3 hours worth of old material to find where I was at, and usually spoils a bunch of plays in the process.
> 
> Why doesn't the resume feature work for me? Is this a known issue with the HR21?


HR21 for me too and I also tried the above workaround. Same result as you. I can't get two current recordings to Resume, they just start over. It seems that any current recording stops and restarts once you go back to the List or to the other tuner.

Seems like a bug to me.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> As much as this has become a hot-button issue here at DBStalk.com, I have to assume that DIRECTV at least tried.


Motorola, dish and Tivo somehow figured it out - I would hope D* could do the same.

I think its more likely (especially given their track record on other missing basic features) that they didn't do their homework upfront and now don't have (or are unwilling to put) the resources to make the change.


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Other than conjecture, theory, and supposition what basis do you have for Directv excluding *DLB* because most viewers don't want it?


Since everything D* has done to date with its proprietary DVR has been around giving customers what they want in a superior fashion to the Tivo that preceeded it, the truth is self-evident:

DLB isn't on the HR20.

That is the proof that viewers don't want it. Everything else they want is on there and it was a feature that already existed on several popular D* DVR's for years and was left off.

2 + 2 = 4. Don't go trying to make it equal 5. No need to overthink the obvious. If water is falling from the sky and you're getting drenched and all the cars have their wipers and lights on, do you need to look up to the sky to confirm that there are clouds and they are grey? Didn't think so.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ShiningBengal said:


> BJ stats: 347 total posts, 300 since June 07. Started posting in this thread mid-July 07. Since then, nearly all of his posts on this forum have been to this thread.
> 
> He has far more posts to this thread than any other member--approximately 250 in five months.
> 
> He doesn't want DLB to be part of the HR20/21 feature set--for no apparent reason other than that others do.
> 
> Anyone other than I wondering just why he expends so much time and energy on a thread devoted to a feature he personally doesn't care about?


This thread is the Tivo forum reborn and that's why I'm here. My job to defend D* and the HR20 and not allow potential new members to be turned off by a supposedly "missing" feature that's niche at best. All the "here's why I need to keep my HR10 until they pry it from my bleeding hands" sentiment that was pervasive there is what's going on here, and it doesn't belong here. Tivo forums, that's the place for complaining and wishing for things that cannot be. DBS is about the new hardware and how to take the features that are on it and put them to use.

Also, I'm really trying to help here. Sometimes a realistic outsiders view is what's needed to open the floodgates of enlightenment to those living in their own bubble. DLB may be gone, but so many other advancements were made that you should be very happy with the tradeoff. I need to help you see the joy so you stop focusing on the anger.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> BJ just needs a hug!


BJ needs a new DLB thread with a more realistic and low view count with a more robust poll that doesn't sku the numbers deliberately in DLB's favor.

When this thread was shut down for a week, notice how no one started a DLB thread on the main board? Why this one issue above all others gets annointed stickyworthy is very troublesome. Better use of the Guide real estate. That's a bigger issue. I don't see a sticky. "Why I Love My HR20!" would be a great sticky. Not there. Why DLB? Why is _this_ topic given special treatment when others are not? With fewer and fewer HR10 owners out there, there are fewer and fewer DLB posts started on the main board. With poll momentum and interest waning, you need to bump the thread when it goes into a 3-day death spiral. DLB is a dead issue. Run it's course. This thread should go.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

MarauderFH said:


> I'm really missing the dual live buffers, as is my wife.
> 
> I'm using an HR21.
> 
> I tried this workaround and it doesn't work for me. First of all there are many more keystrokes as pressing stop brings you to the information panel for a particular recording, and will typically not go to the list straight away.
> 
> When I have two shows recording, if I stop one, then press "resume." It starts over again, unless it is no longer recording. Basically resuming anything that is recording starts it completely over.
> 
> This means even recording two shows at once, on gametime sunday I have to wade to 2-3 hours worth of old material to find where I was at, and usually spoils a bunch of plays in the process.
> 
> Why doesn't the resume feature work for me? Is this a known issue with the HR21?


I'm not sure when the next NR of the HR21 will be available, but I can tell you that the workaround will be significantly easier once the new NR becomes available. I agree that the steps noted are a bit confusing. However the new workaround is really nice and requires that you only record one thing rather than recording both.


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> This thread is the Tivo forum reborn and that's why I'm here. My job to defend D* and the HR20 and not allow potential new members to be turned off by a supposedly "missing" feature that's niche at best. All the "here's why I need to keep my HR10 until they pry it from my bleeding hands" sentiment that was pervasive there is what's going on here, and it doesn't belong here. Tivo forums, that's the place for complaining and wishing for things that cannot be. DBS is about the new hardware and how to take the features that are on it and put them to use.
> 
> Also, I'm really trying to help here. Sometimes a realistic outsiders view is what's needed to open the floodgates of enlightenment to those living in their own bubble. DLB may be gone, but so many other advancements were made that you should be very happy with the tradeoff. I need to help you see the joy so you stop focusing on the anger.
> 
> BJ


Your crusade against DLB is what is troubling many. It's not that you don't care, but that you are actively doing your best to stop DLB that is causing folks to be on the offensive. We all have to live without true DLB. DIRECTV has sold/leased so many HR20/21 systems (even based on your own analysis). It seems odd to have a crusade to maintain status quo. we've had over 3 dozen of our very own feature requests implemented in the past year, so I certainly don't see DIRECTV doing things without some initial forethought.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Since everything D* has done to date with its proprietary DVR has been around giving customers what they want in a superior fashion to the Tivo that preceeded it, the truth is self-evident:
> 
> DLB isn't on the HR20.
> 
> That is the proof that viewers don't want it. Everything else they want is on there and it was a feature that already existed on several popular D* DVR's for years and was left off.
> 
> 2 + 2 = 4. Don't go trying to make it equal 5. No need to overthink the obvious. If water is falling from the sky and you're getting drenched and all the cars have their wipers and lights on, do you need to look up to the sky to confirm that there are clouds and they are grey? Didn't think so.
> 
> BJ


Interesting how you only quote one line. Especially since the rest of my post is in direct contradiction to your reply.

At least I had some basis for my opinion, while yours is 100% assumption which you state as fact.

*It's not there means nobody wants it* doesn't even begin to make a cogent argument.

It's akin to saying *Clouds are grey because that's what color they are*.

That's ok...You're doing a great job keeping the *DLB* discussion alive...Thanks, keep up to good work. 

This is the last time I reply to one of your posts. I can't get anything meaningful out of you so why bother. You are now ignored.

Mike


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> My job to defend D* and the HR20 and not allow potential new members to be turned off by a supposedly "missing" feature that's niche at best.
> 
> BJ


You've called a number of times for this thread to be closed. So I guess you'd rather have no discussion on the lack of DLB's and would rather keep potential new members in the dark, even if its an important feature to them.

IMO, this site has way too many people who feel it is their job to be D*'s free PR mouthpiece - enough that you have to wade though positive D* "spin" on anything remotely negative to D* making purely objective information harder and harder to find.

Why would you not want all facts be presented and discussed (good and bad), especially when it comes to a potential new person asking information and then let the potential customer decide what features are important and what are not.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Originally Posted by boltjames 
This thread is the Tivo forum reborn and that's why I'm here. My job to defend D* and the HR20 and not allow potential new members to be turned off by a supposedly "missing" feature that's niche at best. All the "here's why I need to keep my HR10 until they pry it from my bleeding hands" sentiment that was pervasive there is what's going on here, and it doesn't belong here. Tivo forums, that's the place for complaining and wishing for things that cannot be. DBS is about the new hardware and how to take the features that are on it and put them to use.

Also, I'm really trying to help here. Sometimes a realistic outsiders view is what's needed to open the floodgates of enlightenment to those living in their own bubble. DLB may be gone, but so many other advancements were made that you should be very happy with the tradeoff. I need to help you see the joy so you stop focusing on the anger.

BJ​
BJ, who gave you your job? DirecTV surely didn't, and the DBS forum didn't. Who then?

Wishing for things that cannot be? Who says they cannot be? Will not, perhaps, but cannot?

You evidently take yourself seriously. That is the curious thing about your posts. You assume your opinions are facts and they are anything but.

"DBS is about the new hardware and how to take the features that are on it and put them to use."

That statement is nonsense and gobble-de-****. Read it with fresh eyes and see if you don't agree.

We should be happy? Who says we are not? Suggesting a feature should be part of the HR20/21 doesn't indicate unhappiness.

You believe the HR20/21 is perfect. But DirecTV obviously doesn't think so, evidenced by the dozens of software updates since the HR20 was released.

Do you really believe that DirecTV isn't designing the next generation DVR at this very moment? Do you think that next generation model will be identical to the HR20? If it is "perfect" then there is no need to improve upon it with another next generation model.


----------



## Drew2k

Without darkness there would be no light.

Without boltjames, there would be no increase of the post count in this thread. 

I'm amused that boltjames fails to recognize that there is no longer mass hysteria here about DLB. Six months to a year ago, yes - there were TiVo converts who loudly lamented the lack of DLB. Since then we've seen some very important things happen: 

- Earl passing word from DIRECTV that DLB is not on the horizon
- DIRECTV expanding the features of the DVR+ platform
- DIRECTV directly incorporating several user suggestions into the feature set
- DIRECTV expanding the HD lineup

The net result of these four important events is that those who want DLB now recognize from an authoritative source that we won't see DLB in the near future; they recognize that DIRECTV has an excellent track record with the DVR+ platform of trying to give users what they want; they recognize there are so many great things about the DVR+ platform that DLB would be icing on the cake if we ever got it. 

This resulted in a stabilizing of the DLB conversation. Do people still want it? Absolutely! But I don't see the new mass postings boltjames sees of people ripping DIRECTV for the lack of DLB. I see people rationally expressing their desire for it in this thread, adding their voice to those that have been here for a long time.

All I see is one anti-DLB zealot who is trying to censor a conversation because this one forum member feels people don't appreciate DIRECTV or that people are shouting about DLB and giving DIRECTV a bad reputation. I don't understand this viewpoint, because DIRECTV is signing up new customers in droves, the forum membership here is climbing, and the new users here who want DLB are simply saying "me too" without threats or abuse. I just don't get the mentality that says people shouldn't be free to share their wishes, especially since the forum members are respectful of the moderators' desires to keep DLB discussion in a single thread...


----------



## ShiningBengal

Drew2k said:


> Without darkness there would be no light.
> 
> Without boltjames, there would be no increase of the post count in this thread.
> 
> I'm amused that boltjames fails to recognize that there is no longer mass hysteria here about DLB. Six months to a year ago, yes - there were TiVo converts who loudly lamented the lack of DLB. Since then we've seen some very important things happen:
> 
> - Earl passing word from DIRECTV that DLB is not on the horizon
> - DIRECTV expanding the features of the DVR+ platform
> - DIRECTV directly incorporating several user suggestions into the feature set
> - DIRECTV expanding the HD lineup
> 
> The net result of these four important events is that those who want DLB now recognize from an authoritative source that we won't see DLB in the near future; they recognize that DIRECTV has an excellent track record with the DVR+ platform of trying to give users what they want; they recognize there are so many great things about the DVR+ platform that DLB would be icing on the cake if we ever got it.
> 
> This resulted in a stabilizing of the DLB conversation. Do people still want it? Absolutely! But I don't see the new mass postings boltjames sees of people ripping DIRECTV for the lack of DLB. I see people rationally expressing their desire for it in this thread, adding their voice to those that have been here for a long time.
> 
> All I see is one anti-DLB zealot who is trying to censor a conversation because this one forum member feels people don't appreciate DIRECTV or that people are shouting about DLB and giving DIRECTV a bad reputation. I don't understand this viewpoint, because DIRECTV is signing up new customers in droves, the forum membership here is climbing, and the new users here who want DLB are simply saying "me too" without threats or abuse. I just don't get the mentality that says people shouldn't be free to share their wishes, especially since the forum members are respectful of the moderators' desires to keep DLB discussion in a single thread...


That just about sums it up, doesn't it?

If indeed being the pot-stirrer in this thread is BJ's "job" as he has implied, then his efforts have surely been in vain.

His stated goal is to counter the pro-DLB "faction" by being the voice of reason and balance.

If that is the case, I'd give him a D- at his next job review. There are far more people who view and continue to view this thread than would have been the case had he folded his tent and stolen into the night long ago.

Few if any have rushed to his side to tell him what a good job he has done, adding their voices to his against the forces of darkness.

To the contrary, there are many new voices who, while fans of the HR20/21, believe it would be greatly improved by the addition of DLB. They are not all TiVo fan-boys. I owned 4 TiVo's, including two HR10's, and I liked them a lot. But they were not perfect, and certain things some liked, others did not.

BJ is somehow unable to comprehend that others have perfectly reasonable points of view regarding the evolving design of the HR20/21 that may differ from his yet still be perfectly reasonable.

DLB (dual LIVE buffers) is meant for viewing "live" TV. If everything you view is recorded it is of no use whatever. For me, 75% or more of what I watch is from my list. But when I watch sports, I sorely miss it. I like the immediacy of live sports. Ditto, I will watch breaking news on two channels at once.

DLB is ideal for that, and the HR20/21 makes that virtually impossible. To state otherwise is ridiculous. A very large portion of DirecTV's subscriber base are sports fans--perhaps even fanatics. They have more sports and sports related programming than anyone else.

It seems obvious to me that sooner or later, DLB will be back, regardless of BJ's job performance.


----------



## jheda

Thats because we all respected Earls request not to; moreover, he would delete any DLB thread started during that period. And you know that. Please be a little more fact based, it would truly be appreciated. But keep the posts going BJ you keep the thread count alive!!!!!!



boltjames said:


> When this thread was shut down for a week, notice how no one started a DLB thread on the main board?
> BJ


----------



## jheda

Wow, what did u interview me? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Drew2k said:


> Without darkness there would be no light.
> 
> Without boltjames, there would be no increase of the post count in this thread.
> 
> I'm amused that boltjames fails to recognize that there is no longer mass hysteria here about DLB. Six months to a year ago, yes - there were TiVo converts who loudly lamented the lack of DLB. Since then we've seen some very important things happen:
> 
> - Earl passing word from DIRECTV that DLB is not on the horizon
> - DIRECTV expanding the features of the DVR+ platform
> - DIRECTV directly incorporating several user suggestions into the feature set
> - DIRECTV expanding the HD lineup
> 
> The net result of these four important events is that those who want DLB now recognize from an authoritative source that we won't see DLB in the near future; they recognize that DIRECTV has an excellent track record with the DVR+ platform of trying to give users what they want; they recognize there are so many great things about the DVR+ platform that DLB would be icing on the cake if we ever got it.
> 
> This resulted in a stabilizing of the DLB conversation. Do people still want it? Absolutely! But I don't see the new mass postings boltjames sees of people ripping DIRECTV for the lack of DLB. I see people rationally expressing their desire for it in this thread, adding their voice to those that have been here for a long time.
> 
> All I see is one anti-DLB zealot who is trying to censor a conversation because this one forum member feels people don't appreciate DIRECTV or that people are shouting about DLB and giving DIRECTV a bad reputation. I don't understand this viewpoint, because DIRECTV is signing up new customers in droves, the forum membership here is climbing, and the new users here who want DLB are simply saying "me too" without threats or abuse. I just don't get the mentality that says people shouldn't be free to share their wishes, especially since the forum members are respectful of the moderators' desires to keep DLB discussion in a single thread...


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> Your crusade against DLB is what is troubling many. It's not that you don't care, but that you are actively doing your best to stop DLB that is causing folks to be on the offensive. We all have to live without true DLB. DIRECTV has sold/leased so many HR20/21 systems (even based on your own analysis). It seems odd to have a crusade to maintain status quo. we've had over 3 dozen of our very own feature requests implemented in the past year, so I certainly don't see DIRECTV doing things without some initial forethought.


I agree with your comments, Doug, and I'd like to add that the fact that DLB is/was a TIVO feature is really irrelevant. Other non-TIVO DVR manufacturers have DLB, so it doesn't matter whether we liked DLB as former TIVO customers or not. Furthermore, we HR20 users like the features this receiver has. Many of us simply hope for an additional feature here and there that other DVRs have, and it just happens that DLB is undoubtedly the most popular feature in this desired set. I find it troubling that BJ has launched an anti-DLB crusade but doesn't seem to put nearly as much energy into opposing other features the HR20 lacks that other DVRs have. I often wonder if DLB did something to him when he was a child and the memory of that painful event has somehow caused him to become vitriolic whenever DLB is mentioned.


----------



## MarauderFH

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure when the next NR of the HR21 will be available, but I can tell you that the workaround will be significantly easier once the new NR becomes available. I agree that the steps noted are a bit confusing. However the new workaround is really nice and requires that you only record one thing rather than recording both.


I think you misunderstood.

The workaround does not work at all for the HR21. If you resume shows that are being recorded it will start over from the beginning. There isn't really a workaround for the HR21.

Further, the pause point CE patch appears to be HR20 only.

So those of you who think you have it bad, it could be worse - you could effectively have to re-fastforward for 2+ hours every 15 minutes all day sunday in addition to unnecessary keystrokes.

And is BJ just trying to get someone to insult him to get the thread closed? I honestly wonder about some people.


----------



## Doug Brott

MarauderFH said:


> I think you misunderstood.
> 
> The workaround does not work at all for the HR21. If you resume shows that are being recorded it will start over from the beginning. There isn't really a workaround for the HR21.


No, there is no doubt that the current national release for the HR21 is not up to date with the HR20. It will be better, but it will not be true DLB.


----------



## BlueCan

boltjames said:


> BJ needs a new DLB thread with a more realistic and low view count with a more robust poll that doesn't sku the numbers deliberately in DLB's favor.


I'll still vote the same way.

As it sits, I have the equivalent of 1.25 tuners. One tuner that buffers and the other that can be used to record something else, but is unused the vast majority of the time. If I switch channels, I lose all buffered content.

My wife, who's not all that "into it" had this to say about the "no DLB" issue: "They're stupid. You mean I have to record 2 channels to have 2 shows going at once? The old DVR just did it, I didn't have to think about it at all..."

Why's this a "Sticky"? It's a major takeaway. ...and it's one that's solvable. If they can *record* two streams at once, they CERTAINLY can *buffer* two streams at once...

The kicker here (for me) is that DTV didn't have a "greenfield" they were pushing a new, "Improved" DVR into. They had an established installed base with existing expectations. Pointing at the HR2X series and assuming that we all came from HR10's is PROBABLY not a good idea, but most of us did, and many of us came from UTV boxes before the TiVo units (and were annoyed with the PiP takeaway going to TiVo, but got over it due to *Dual TUNERS* and other improved features).

Honestly, I'm not going to "get over" DLB. The other features are nice, but I've had to make major modifications to *HOW I USE MY DVR* to bend to the new unit. Come on, DTV, it's not that hard to understand the usage model--and once you've got that, you'll get an implementation roadmap that is achievable...


----------



## kcorth

Doug Brott said:


> No, there is no doubt that the current national release for the HR21 is not up to date with the HR20. It will be better, but it will not be true DLB.


So for clarification, will the next NR of HR21 really provide some kind of workaround? MarauderFH is right that you have to start over from the beginning, meaning Resume doesn't even work right.


----------



## Doug Brott

kcorth said:


> So for clarification, will the next NR of HR21 really provide some kind of workaround? MarauderFH is right that you have to start over from the beginning, meaning Resume doesn't even work right.


Bugs are fixed all of the time and I believe that what you referring to is one of those bugs. I'm pretty sure that that issue will be gone once the next national release is available. Things will be much better, but it will not be a true DLB ..


----------



## rawilson

Drew2k said:


> Without darkness there would be no light.
> 
> Without boltjames, there would be no increase of the post count in this thread.
> 
> I'm amused that boltjames fails to recognize that there is no longer mass hysteria here about DLB. Six months to a year ago, yes - there were TiVo converts who loudly lamented the lack of DLB. Since then we've seen some very important things happen:
> 
> - Earl passing word from DIRECTV that DLB is not on the horizon
> - DIRECTV expanding the features of the DVR+ platform
> - DIRECTV directly incorporating several user suggestions into the feature set
> - DIRECTV expanding the HD lineup
> 
> The net result of these four important events is that those who want DLB now recognize from an authoritative source that we won't see DLB in the near future; they recognize that DIRECTV has an excellent track record with the DVR+ platform of trying to give users what they want; they recognize there are so many great things about the DVR+ platform that DLB would be icing on the cake if we ever got it.
> 
> This resulted in a stabilizing of the DLB conversation. Do people still want it? Absolutely! But I don't see the new mass postings boltjames sees of people ripping DIRECTV for the lack of DLB. I see people rationally expressing their desire for it in this thread, adding their voice to those that have been here for a long time.
> 
> All I see is one anti-DLB zealot who is trying to censor a conversation because this one forum member feels people don't appreciate DIRECTV or that people are shouting about DLB and giving DIRECTV a bad reputation. I don't understand this viewpoint, because DIRECTV is signing up new customers in droves, the forum membership here is climbing, and the new users here who want DLB are simply saying "me too" without threats or abuse. I just don't get the mentality that says people shouldn't be free to share their wishes, especially since the forum members are respectful of the moderators' desires to keep DLB discussion in a single thread...


I've given up complaining because it appears to be a useless exercise. I'm now waiting for my commitment to expire so I can switch to Dish. I find that my family and I don't watch much HD content on the delta channels provided by directv...so I'm out when my contract expires. Seems the only thing directv might listen to is subscribers leaving.


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> When this thread was shut down for a week, notice how no one started a DLB thread on the main board?


There was a moderation decision made a while back to allow ONE DLB thread ... and this is it. Had anyone created a new thread it would have likely been closed or deleted per that moderation decision. ESPECIALLY during a period of time where a moderation decision was in effect giving the whole DLB issue a timeout.

DLB is a hot issue ... Why? I can't tell you. But it is an obviously much discussed issue and if it were not for moderation decisions could easily overwhelm the DirecTV forums.

And that is that ... instead of a 24/7/365 ban on discussing DLB (which some would like) the decision was made to allow a limited discussion in this one thread. If anyone has a problem with that moderation decision (or any other moderation decision) please send a PM to a mod.

Simple enough ... now, can everyone stop discussing the thread and the posters and discuss DLB ... the TOPIC of this thread? Thanks.

:backtotop

*Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS!*


----------



## Earl Bonovich

I am going to add to James's warning.

I have closed this thread down once as a cool down period.
For EVERYONE, not just one or two particular posters.

To get it out of their systems... and if they want to constructively discuss the DLB feature.

If I have to close this thread again... it will be for good.

Since there has been ZERO change to DLB since it not being active on the R15 almost 2 years ago... Hence the single thread.

There really is nothing "new" to add about it, other then people saying they want it... or don't want it... and that is what this thread is about.

Civil discussion please... plain and simple.
If you don't want to read posts from any particular user.... IGNORE feature works very well.

As done common sense of a user of this sytem... don't reply..
If you think a post has gone too far... report the post.

Again... Last and Only Warning about this.
If I am forced to close this thread again... that is it.
This thread will not be opened again... and no DLB thread will remain open, until there is a change on the status of DLB with the DVR+ platform.


----------



## Duffinator

The more time goes on the more I miss the DLB. It's very handy for sports and I can never remember to record both channels I'm watching. Please give us DLB, I'm sure the *advertisers* would appreciate both channels being recorded at the same time.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Duffinator said:


> The more time goes on the more I miss the DLB. It's very handy for sports and I can never remember to record both channels I'm watching. Please give us DLB, I'm sure the *advertisers* would appreciate both channels being recorded at the same time.


I used it every day.

One tuner on a channel while I surfed the other. I could bounce back and forth and even switch which tuner I kept buffering while surfing the other.

All a matter of convenience, true. With TiVo for a few years I got used to it....spoiled you might say. 

I miss it and want it back.

I won't give up all this HD for it though. 

Mike


----------



## Duffinator

MicroBeta said:


> I won't give up all this HD for it though.
> 
> Mike


Second. :nono:


----------



## MikeR7

MicroBeta said:


> I used it every day.
> 
> One tuner on a channel while I surfed the other. I could bounce back and forth and even switch which tuner I kept buffering while surfing the other.
> 
> All a matter of convenience, true. With TiVo for a few years I got used to it....spoiled you might say.
> 
> I miss it and want it back.
> 
> I won't give up all this HD for it though.
> 
> Mike


I could use it every day as I have a HR10 and HR20 running to the same TV, which actually gives me TLB!!!:lol:

But I don't. Maybe once a week. :lol:


----------



## rod456

I voted must have even though I just upgraded to a new HR21, still have my HR10 in the bedroom. Would prefer two 30 minute LDB vs. one 90m buffer. But, will learn to live with it unitl D* fixes (hopefully) sometime in the future or just record both at once. Wouldn't think it would be too hard to add since it is capable of dual recording now which is essentially two live buffers. My two cents for what is worth........


----------



## HD Nut

I just joined, so bare with me.

Just got my hr21-700 and hate it. I had my hr10-250 with the dual tuners and my wife and i loved it. can someone summaraize why directv cannot do the same? i'm sure it's in the 97 pages of threads, but i don't have the time to read them all. i watch live tv about more than 50% of the time, mainly because all that is watched are sporting events. if everything i watched was recorded, this is a non-issue. but when you are watching live tv, and trying to watch to games at the same time, it is essential to have two live tuners with a 30 minute buffer. On a typical Sunday, i set two games that i'm watching to seperate tuners. pause the first game and watch the second until a break in the action. then i pause the seocnd game and watch teh first game until there is a pause. i can essentially watch two games in the time period it takes to play one. two tuners are also good for surfing for other shows. i might be watching a hockey game on one tuner. when there is a break in the action i hit pause and surf other channels. The single tuner, which i didn't know about until i got the box, stinks. i can only hope that changes can be made soon. i know changes can be made, because the box already has a two tuner input. any idea if changes are planned to be made?


----------



## looter

HD Nut said:


> I just joined, so bare with me.
> 
> Just got my hr21-700 and hate it. I had my hr10-250 with the dual tuners and my wife and i loved it. can someone summaraize why directv cannot do the same? i'm sure it's in the 97 pages of threads, but i don't have the time to read them all. i watch live tv about more than 50% of the time, mainly because all that is watched are sporting events. if everything i watched was recorded, this is a non-issue. but when you are watching live tv, and trying to watch to games at the same time, it is essential to have two live tuners with a 30 minute buffer. On a typical Sunday, i set two games that i'm watching to seperate tuners. pause the first game and watch the second until a break in the action. then i pause the seocnd game and watch teh first game until there is a pause. i can essentially watch two games in the time period it takes to play one. two tuners are also good for surfing for other shows. i might be watching a hockey game on one tuner. when there is a break in the action i hit pause and surf other channels. The single tuner, which i didn't know about until i got the box, stinks. i can only hope that changes can be made soon. i know changes can be made, because the box already has a two tuner input. any idea if changes are planned to be made?


I see you are a new member. Have you checked out the Cutting Edge forum?
http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=118


----------



## Earl Bonovich

HD Nut said:


> Can someone summaraize why directv cannot do the same?


Easy summary:
They have chosen NOT to include the feature in that box.

Plain and simple. Thee is nothing else to it.
They have chosen NOT to include the feature.

As for the SLB... yes, there are a few changes on the horrizon, that are currently in the version being tested in the CE area.


----------



## ToddinVA

I can't believe I hadn't thought of posting about this issue before, but this is an issue and happens fairly often, especially when it comes to sports. Last night I went to record a show on ESPN showing some guy jump a motorcycle over a football field. I didn't really think about it going over it's alloted time so I set it for it's 1.5 hour broadcast. I then switched back to my HDTiVo to utilize DLB (yep, not for sports or even news...) to switch back and forth between the New Year's Eve programming around midnight. I figured I'd watch the jump afterwards. So I start watching the jump show and FF'ing through most of it and reach the end. Guess what...no jump! I'm like great, I switch back to live TV about 5 minutes after the end of the show and no ESPN! It was in the buffer than got lost after the recording ended! Grrr...  So I quickly change the channel and the jump had already happened and I never got to see it. Had this been on my TiVo, that buffer wouldn't have been lost and I could have resume viewing where I left off. This happens plenty of times with other sports as well from football to NASCAR. So there you go, an indisputable reason to have DLB. So how about it DirecTV, let's get er' done!


----------



## inkahauts

HD Nut said:


> I just joined, so bare with me.
> 
> Just got my hr21-700 and hate it. I had my hr10-250 with the dual tuners and my wife and i loved it. can someone summaraize why directv cannot do the same? i'm sure it's in the 97 pages of threads, but i don't have the time to read them all. i watch live tv about more than 50% of the time, mainly because all that is watched are sporting events. if everything i watched was recorded, this is a non-issue. but when you are watching live tv, and trying to watch to games at the same time, it is essential to have two live tuners with a 30 minute buffer. On a typical Sunday, i set two games that i'm watching to seperate tuners. pause the first game and watch the second until a break in the action. then i pause the seocnd game and watch teh first game until there is a pause. i can essentially watch two games in the time period it takes to play one. two tuners are also good for surfing for other shows. i might be watching a hockey game on one tuner. when there is a break in the action i hit pause and surf other channels. The single tuner, which i didn't know about until i got the box, stinks. i can only hope that changes can be made soon. i know changes can be made, because the box already has a two tuner input. any idea if changes are planned to be made?


Actually, once you hit pause, you ARE watching a recorded program after that. So I recommend, just record the two programs. Then you can switch between the two recordings, even though you are close to live, or live when you catch up, and if someone accidentally changes to a third channel, you won't loose you other game because the unit won't let you change until you stop recording. DLB is nice, but its not something that needs to be fixed. It is something that many people want added. (I would love to see it, but I would rarely use it.

In the end though, I believe I have the best solution for DLB and I highly recommend it to everyone...

62" on the left, 50" on the right....:jump3:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

inkahauts said:


> In the end though, I believe I have the best solution for DLB and I highly recommend it to everyone...
> 
> 62" on the left, 50" on the right....:jump3:


Now thats the way to do it. But I think if I were to do that I'd 3 or 4 TV's.


----------



## beer_geek

I can understand that method for sports but having 2 dialogues going at the same time would drive my wife nuts.


----------



## anubys

theratpatrol said:


> Now thats the way to do it. But I think if I were to do that I'd 3 or 4 TV's.


what's funny about the pic is that I just got a bonus at work of a free HD TV...my wife wondered what I would do with an extra TV and I explained to her this exact setup...she looked at me like I'm from Mars (which is not unusual, actually)...:lol:


----------



## Green23

inkahauts said:


> 62" on the left, 50" on the right....:jump3:


That's awesome


----------



## ShiningBengal

beer_geek said:


> I can understand that method for sports but having 2 dialogues going at the same time would drive my wife nuts.


Even with the both sets off, they would drive my wife nuts. No TV's in the living room, period. Grounds for divorce.

Basement HT OK, bedroom OK, but must be turned off if she's in the room at the time.

She does allow me to have a huge HT with 102" screen & DTS 7.1 in the basement, however. Seems like a fair trade off.


----------



## cdc101

ShiningBengal said:


> Even with the both sets off, they would drive my wife nuts. No TV's in the living room, period. Grounds for divorce.
> 
> Basement HT OK, bedroom OK, but must be turned off if she's in the room at the time.
> 
> She does allow me to have a huge HT with 102" screen & DTS 7.1 in the basement, however. Seems like a fair trade off.


Damn...glad she's _your _wife and not mine. 

My wife likes the 50" in the bedroom and the 56" Sammy in the living room. Hoping to move the Sammy into the bedroom, 50 inch into the spare room...and get a new 67" DLP Samsung for the living room...and another HR20.


----------



## inkahauts

beer_geek said:


> I can understand that method for sports but having 2 dialogues going at the same time would drive my wife nuts.


I only listen to one at a time. Its either sports for both, or sports on one, without sound (half the announcers out there are stupid anyway) , and movie/tv show on the other.

By the way, They both do PIP, so I can hit 4 programs at once....


----------



## inkahauts

ShiningBengal said:


> Even with the both sets off, they would drive my wife nuts. No TV's in the living room, period. Grounds for divorce.
> 
> Basement HT OK, bedroom OK, but must be turned off if she's in the room at the time.
> 
> She does allow me to have a huge HT with 102" screen & DTS 7.1 in the basement, however. Seems like a fair trade off.


I am guessing that you couldn't tell me the color of your living room walls.....

How often do you pick a fight so that you get sent to the basement for the night?


----------



## SlimyPizza

If it weren’t for the fact that the DLB concept has already been introduced then it wouldn’t be so much of an issue now. However, now that most of us have seen a DLB implementation, and used it, and seen the benefit of it, it seems stubborn and pointless to deny a solid customer base those same features now. I’m disappointed in DTV for not providing the best possible service and functionality.


----------



## ShiningBengal

cdc101 said:


> Damn...glad she's _your _wife and not mine.
> 
> My wife likes the 50" in the bedroom and the 56" Sammy in the living room. Hoping to move the Sammy into the bedroom, 50 inch into the spare room...and get a new 67" DLP Samsung for the living room...and another HR20.


My wife believes the bedroom is for three purposes: sleeping, resting, and (fill in the non electronic-related reason of your choice).

We have two bedrooms, both of which are large and are equipped with LCD and Plasma TV's should I want to watch TV when she is absent.

(There are actually good reasons not to have a TV on in the bedroom at times. )


----------



## Jon J

HD Nut said:


> I just joined, so bare with me.


Sorry. Ain't getting nekkid just because you do.


----------



## cdc101

ShiningBengal said:


> (There are actually good reasons not to have a TV on in the bedroom at times. )


We _absolutely _agree on that.


----------



## Drew2k

Jon J said:


> Sorry. Ain't getting nekkid just because you do.


Funny, coming from the guy with the Benny Hill avatar! 

"Ohhhhhhhhh!

I have got a hose pipe ...
I have got a hose pipe ...
I have got a hose pipe ...
What shall I do with it?

Ohhhhhhhhhh!

Stick it up the chimney
Stick it up the chimney
Stick it up the chimney
And let's put out the fire!"

(Recalled fondlyy from my childhood at my grandmother's house early Saturday evenings ...)


----------



## amahdi

HiDefGator said:


> I'm not a huge fan of DLB but can't you solve this problem and double your recording space for just $5 extra a month by getting a second HR20?


Can you have 2 Receivers (HR20 for example) on one tv? Wouldn;t that mean having 4 satellite connection wires coming from the dish to your receiever?

Thanks.


----------



## looter

First off, just try and get an HR20. Not to mention that involves having to switch inputs on your TV and audio amp and having to manage 2 DVRs and pay for something that one HR20/21 should be able to do.

I guess you could, if you feel like you aren't paying enough for TV already.


----------



## oenophile

amahdi said:


> Can you have 2 Receivers (HR20 for example) on one tv? Wouldn;t that mean having 4 satellite connection wires coming from the dish to your receiever?
> 
> Thanks.





looter said:


> First off, just try and get an HR20. Not to mention that involves having to switch inputs on your TV and audio amp and having to manage 2 DVRs and pay for something that one HR20/21 should be able to do.
> 
> I guess you could, if you feel like you aren't paying enough for TV already.


I have 2 HR20's hooked up to the same TV and use the Harmony 890 remote to control seamlessly. It is actually better than DLB b/c I have 4 streams I can record at once. IIRC I received the second HR20 for free. YMMV


----------



## gigilee

My family have been satisfied D* customers for 5+ years. We have 4 receivers, including the HR10. Without DLB we will NEVER switch to the HR20. I understand the HR10 will no longer be supported in 2009. Too bad, without DLB, my family will no longer support D*. My husband wanted to switch to HR20 several months ago, he's an early adopter. When he discovered there was no support for DLB, we said NO WAY! We are very passionate about this. The recording workarounds are more trouble than they are worth. Just give us the feature already. I don't plan on posting on this forum again. I just wanted D* and that crazy j*a$$ poster who says DLB isn't important to know it is a showstopper for some of us.

P.S. OTA is another showstopper, but I realize that's another thread.

Cheers.


----------



## ShiningBengal

looter said:


> First off, just try and get an HR20.


Not too hard. You can buy brand new HR20-100S - 3 available for $189 + $30 shipping on eBay Express (non-auction). Found that in about 2 minutes of searching.

They can be found, and surprisingly easily. For now.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Wow, there isn't a double buffer in the HR21? I use that all the time to watch two shows at once on my D-TiVo. All the time flipping between History and Discovery at commercial time. Or something like that anyway. 

Does that mean you can't record two shows at once too? I'm sure there's a FAQ for that though...

I guess that just made my decision to buy instantcake in an effort to fix my freezing and rebooting problem on my SD-DVR40 I was going to try to get D* to give me a free HR21 by threatening to "ditch my dish" and go with Comcast. I guess I will just try to fix my existing unit than get one that is crippled by lacking a feature I use all the time.


----------



## ShiningBengal

Tallgntlmn said:


> Wow, there isn't a double buffer in the HR21? I use that all the time to watch two shows at once on my D-TiVo. All the time flipping between History and Discovery at commercial time. Or something like that anyway.
> 
> Does that mean you can't record two shows at once too? I'm sure there's a FAQ for that though...
> 
> I guess that just made my decision to buy instantcake in an effort to fix my freezing and rebooting problem on my SD-DVR40 I was going to try to get D* to give me a free HR21 by threatening to "ditch my dish" and go with Comcast. I guess I will just try to fix my existing unit than get one that is crippled by lacking a feature I use all the time.


A very large portion of present HR20/21 users are former DirecTiVo HD owners/lessees. I am one of them. I had two HR10's (still do). I now have 2 HR20's and 1 HR21. I must be honest, and although I do miss the DLB feature of my TiVo's, there are other features that the HR20/21's have that are clearly a step forward from TiVo.

The menu's are much, much faster. I like that. Also, you can actually watch your current TV show or recording in a decent sized window rather than having it hidden behind a show listing or the guide. The 30 second skip is there, up front, without using the back door codes everytime your receiver reboots.

The software had lots of bugs when the HR20 was released--in my mind, very prematurely. But the vast majority of problems have been addressed in numerous automatic software upgrades.

The remote also takes some getting used to for some, but since I have used Harmony remotes with both the TiVo's and the HR20/21's (same remote) I haven't had to readjust. Those who have think it's fine. You can even get (at extra cost) a back lit remote from DirecTV.

The larger dish you will need installed isn't cute, but the huge reflector makes it much more resistant to rain fade.

With regard to OTA, if you need it, don't go to DirecTV. Buy an HR20 online, or in a local retail store. They aren't everywhere--you may have to call around, or find one online. My advice is not to get an HR21 in hopes the promised OTA solution for this otherwise fine receiver will arrive anytime soon. If you need or want OTA, the HR20 is the way to go. If you expect to get a "free" HR21 from DirecTV, you may have a tough time. They ended that program quite some time ago. I got one free. Had to buy the other two, one for $100 + shipping and the other one from Costco. But try if it makes you feel good. Bear in mind, there are VERY few HR20's available from DirecTV, and they are as I understand, available only as warranty replacement units for those who have failed HR20's.

IMHO, DirecTV on Demand, now in beta, isn't worth a tenth of the hoopla comparing it to cable's Video on Demand. It isn't at all comparable. But I never had it before, so I'm not really bent up about having a feature I will never use.

How's that for a balanced view?

You will be missing out on a lot of very good (and some not so good) new HD programming by passing by the HR20/21 for something from Charlie or cable.

The HR20/21 is ready for prime time. Really. Even without DLB, and even WITH DoD.


----------



## amahdi

grat analysis. Thanks. Also - if I get an HR20 from COstco for $100 for example - that doesn't include installation of the new dish, etc. How would I get that? Woudln't it be better to pay $199 to Directv and get the HR20 and the installation?

Thanks


----------



## Que

Welcome to the forum gigilee and Tallgntlmn! If you feel strongly about DLB, you can snail mail DirecTV. Write something up yourself or here is 2 letters you can copy and send out. DLB Letters


----------



## ShiningBengal

amahdi said:


> grat analysis. Thanks. Also - if I get an HR20 from COstco for $100 for example - that doesn't include installation of the new dish, etc. How would I get that? Woudln't it be better to pay $199 to Directv and get the HR20 and the installation?
> 
> Thanks


You won't get an HR20 from Costco, or any other retailer, for $100. It's $269, which is $30 off DirecTV's price, or $50 off if you include the shipping in DirecTV's price. DirecTV will charge you shipping on anything you order from them.

DirecTV will put up a new dish for you at no charge regardless of where you get your receiver. They are in the business of providing a service, not hardware. They want to keep you as a customer. As I mentioned in an earlier post, yesterday eBay express had HR20's for $189 + $30 shipping. That's not a bad deal, but I'm sure you can find others if you look.

You may get an HR21 if someone promised you something earlier and made a note of it. To my knowlege, discount pricing is on a case-by-case basis. You should indicate to DirecTV that you want an HR20 and if you are lucky, and plead your case in a civil manner, you might get what you want. Confirm that you will be needing an installation and make sure that it is free. It should be.

Good luck!


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Wow again, great info Shining. I didn't know a good bit of what you posted. 

I'm almost so fed up with the 6.3 version of the D-TiVo software that I might consider a switch. I only have SDTV so I'm not sure the benefit, though I understand there is one or 22 depending on what you read. I don't anticipate going HD until the end of this year or early next, my TV is still too new. Though with all my friends having it and having Comcast, I can only imagine how much better it would look fed by D*. 

The DLB thing bugs me though on the surface because of how I use it and how I perceive that I would miss it. My Sunday mornings are spent pausing ESPN and watching the local news and then going back once I see the weather. 

However, if it is true that I could get 5.1 sound on regular shows (only on PPV for me since I don't get movie channels), stream my MP3s without dragging out the iPod, and move shows to the PC, those might just trump my inhibition. 

I guess I'll have to go take a look at the interface to see if I could switch without much trouble. Then it'd just be a matter of getting D* to give me a box. I like the HR21 because it's finally black. Thank goodness that silver stuff is going away.


----------



## boltjames

I'm at CES in Vegas and will report back if I get an audience with the proper individual who may a) tell me the 'secret' as to why DLB isn't being offered and b) tell me if there's a chance it'll come to the HR20/1 in the near future. Last year, there were several engineers on the show floor chipping in with the sales team; I'll try to find one of them or one of the devlelopment VP's and get to the bottom of this once and for all.

I've even copied this thread in its entirety along with the poll. It's in a bright blue 3-ring binder. We'll get this done. You're in good hands. Trust me.

BJ


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> I'm at CES in Vegas and will report back if I get an audience with the proper individual who may a) tell me the 'secret' as to why DLB isn't being offered and b) tell me if there's a chance it'll come to the HR20/1 in the near future. Last year, there were several engineers on the show floor chipping in with the sales team; I'll try to find one of them or one of the devlelopment VP's and get to the bottom of this once and for all.
> 
> I've even copied this thread in its entirety along with the poll. It's in a bright blue 3-ring binder. We'll get this done. You're in good hands. Trust me.
> 
> BJ


Thanks! can't wait to hear what you found out...at this point, my Curiosity has reached a point where I might care more about knowing "the secret" than getting DLB


----------



## boltjames

anubys said:


> Thanks! can't wait to hear what you found out...at this point, my Curiosity has reached a point where I might care more about knowing "the secret" than getting DLB


I will come back from CES a hero, the person who delivered DLB for you. I've decided that it's the best way of getting this thread shut down so that we can spend more time praising the HR20/1, God's gift to HDTV.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> I will come back from CES a hero, the person who delivered DLB for you. I've decided that it's the best way of getting this thread shut down so that we can spend more time praising the HR20/1, God's gift to HDTV.
> 
> BJ


Good luck with that...
Considering the VP of development is not at CES this year...


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> Good luck with that...
> Considering the VP of development is not at CES this year...


I'll find someone who'll listen. Someone who'll squeal. I won't let you down.

BJ, DLB Hero


----------



## fasTLane

What is this? 

Battle of the wannabees?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

fasTLane said:


> What is this?
> 
> Battle of the wannabees?


There's only one wannabee in this thread...

Mike


----------



## MX727

Earl or Tom

Will the HDPC give us the ability to regain DLB functionality?


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> Good luck with that...
> Considering the VP of development is not at CES this year...


Earl, if I were you, I would quickly post the "secret"...you don't want to be out-scooped, do you?

be the first...he our hero!

:lol:


----------



## BigLars

I too am a looong time, very satisfied HR10 user who paid big-time for the privilege. I suspended my account recently to move residences. Upon reactivation, I asked for HR20 upgrade since HD locals are not available in my area. They basically said 'fat chance' and suggested I buy one. I did on eBay and am very happy with, though I knew its limitations, thanks to you guys. Still, I really, REALLY want DLB. What I love(d) about the HR10 is that I could leave one tuner on CNN and one on ESPN News (or two sporting events) and instantly catch up on stuff at any time of the day. I much prefer that capability to a 90 minute single buffer. The constant recording and deleting is a bit of a pain. I could live fairly happily ever after with a pseudo-DLB if the HR20 would just hold a pause on the non-recording channel. If DTV's looking in, I beg you to implement this feature in the near future. 

PS - this forum is my new favorite place to lurk!

Larry


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MX727 said:


> Earl or Tom
> 
> Will the HDPC give us the ability to regain DLB functionality?


Probably not.
I don't know how Microsoft Media Center software is.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> Earl, if I were you, I would quickly post the "secret"...you don't want to be out-scooped, do you?
> 
> be the first...he our hero!
> 
> :lol:


Nice try


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BigLars said:


> I too am a looong time, very satisfied HR10 user who paid big-time for the privilege. I suspended my account recently to move residences. Upon reactivation, I asked for HR20 upgrade since HD locals are not available in my area. They basically said 'fat chance' and suggested I buy one. I did on eBay and am very happy with, though I knew its limitations, thanks to you guys. Still, I really, REALLY want DLB. What I love(d) about the HR10 is that I could leave one tuner on CNN and one on ESPN News (or two sporting events) and instantly catch up on stuff at any time of the day. I much prefer that capability to a 90 minute single buffer. The constant recording and deleting is a bit of a pain. I could live fairly happily ever after with a pseudo-DLB if the HR20 would just hold a pause on the non-recording channel. If DTV's looking in, I beg you to implement this feature in the near future.
> 
> PS - this forum is my new favorite place to lurk!
> 
> Larry


:welcome_s 
Welcom to the forum.

Lurk away. 

These guys are really good so feel free to ask questions.

Mike


----------



## jheda

Welcome!!! Holding the pause point is in "testing" ; stay tuned!


BigLars said:


> I too am a looong time, very satisfied HR10 user who paid big-time for the privilege. I suspended my account recently to move residences. Upon reactivation, I asked for HR20 upgrade since HD locals are not available in my area. They basically said 'fat chance' and suggested I buy one. I did on eBay and am very happy with, though I knew its limitations, thanks to you guys. Still, I really, REALLY want DLB. What I love(d) about the HR10 is that I could leave one tuner on CNN and one on ESPN News (or two sporting events) and instantly catch up on stuff at any time of the day. I much prefer that capability to a 90 minute single buffer. The constant recording and deleting is a bit of a pain. I could live fairly happily ever after with a pseudo-DLB if the HR20 would just hold a pause on the non-recording channel. If DTV's looking in, I beg you to implement this feature in the near future.
> 
> PS - this forum is my new favorite place to lurk!
> 
> Larry


----------



## kanderna

jheda said:


> Welcome!!! Holding the pause point is in "testing" ; stay tuned!


This alone is pretty decent news.


----------



## anubys

jheda said:


> Welcome!!! Holding the pause point is in "testing" ; stay tuned!


I thought it's further than "testing"...reading the details on the latest software release (to the 700 series), that is fixed...so it should be a matter of a few weeks before it reaches the 100s...


----------



## Que

A must have! 2680 77.41%
Don't really care about it. 170 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 612 17.68%
Voters: 3462

Replies 2,453
Views 129,736


----------



## jheda

used the term testing for anything in CE... sorry for any confusion...


anubys said:


> I thought it's further than "testing"...reading the details on the latest software release (to the 700 series), that is fixed...so it should be a matter of a few weeks before it reaches the 100s...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

*looks around*

So Bolt James, did you get us an answer yet?


----------



## Lord Vader

Shhhhh. He's with O.J. right now looking for the real killers.


----------



## boltjames

theratpatrol said:


> *looks around*
> 
> So Bolt James, did you get us an answer yet?


Yes, but I was asked not to make the answer public. All I can say is that there is no technical reason it cannot happen.

BJ


----------



## TheRatPatrol

boltjames said:


> Yes, but I was asked not to make the answer public. All I can say is that there is no technical reason it cannot happen.
> 
> BJ


But you promised. 

I guess we'll never know then.


----------



## Lord Vader

He's just repeating what Earl's been saying for some time.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Lord Vader said:


> He's just repeating what Earl's been saying for some time.


And whats that? We still don't know why we don't have it.


----------



## fasTLane

Plastic carrot on a stick.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Yes, but I was asked not to make the answer public. All I can say is that there is no technical reason it cannot happen.
> 
> BJ


So that's it??  Do they even care that so many people want their DLB back? Did that recent letter from DirecTV that was posted here recently (the one about them wanting to concentrate on offering a longer buffer rather than DLB  ) have any truth to it?


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> He's just repeating what Earl's been saying for some time.


Yeah, truth is that D*'s booth was in the Venetian and by the time I realized that they weren't on the main floors at the Central, North, or South halls I'd already completed the Sands and didn't have the time or energy to make it back.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> Yeah, truth is that D*'s booth was in the Venetian and by the time I realized that they weren't on the main floors at the Central, North, or South halls I'd already completed the Sands and didn't have the time or energy to make it back.
> 
> BJ


So you didn't ask, correct?


----------



## BattleScott

Que said:


> A must have! 2680 77.41%
> Don't really care about it. 170 4.91%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 612 17.68%
> Voters: 3462
> 
> Replies 2,453
> Views 129,736


Judging by these poll results, if DLB were already a feature they would remove it. 
(Just look at the 'To Do' results...)

ok,ok... they wouldn't 'remove it' altogether, just make it harder to access...


----------



## Lord Vader

theratpatrol said:


> And whats that? We still don't know why we don't have it.


That's right, and Earl has repeatedly said he cannot divulge the reason.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

Just read the entire thread. Did it while my wife was using DLB on the HR10 in the bedroom. When I told her we wouldn't have DLB on the new HR21s, she said didn't care enough about the additional HD channels to give up DLB.

When people in the know say that they can't say why, in my professional experience it's always a legal reason. I suspect they DLB would violate a contract or patent. Since the patents are public and don't seem to clearly identify DLB as a patented feature, I suspect it's a contract issue. Also, the 90 min SLB seems to be a way to get around some legal restriction on 30 min DLB. 

Just my 2 cents

PS, no HR21 for us until there is a working DLB or something reasonably close, and real OTA.

Is Dish really closer to a Tivo than the HR21?


----------



## Jhon69

AZ_Engineer said:


> Just read the entire thread. Did it while my wife was using DLB on the HR10 in the bedroom. When I told her we wouldn't have DLB on the new HR21s, she said didn't care enough about the additional HD channels to give up DLB.
> 
> When people in the know say that they can't say why, in my professional experience it's always a legal reason. I suspect they DLB would violate a contract or patent. Since the patents are public and don't seem to clearly identify DLB as a patented feature, I suspect it's a contract issue. Also, the 90 min SLB seems to be a way to get around some legal restriction on 30 min DLB.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> PS, no HR21 for us until there is a working DLB or something reasonably close, and real OTA.
> 
> Is Dish really closer to a Tivo than the HR21?


Yes it is and that's why Tivo is sueing Dish and winning.Until it's all over no one knows what features the Dish DVRs will lose.

In 2008 DirecTV will be transferring all MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4.

While DirecTV has an agreement with Tivo plus they just bought Replay TV.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

AZ_Engineer said:


> Just read the entire thread. Did it while my wife was using DLB on the HR10 in the bedroom. When I told her we wouldn't have DLB on the new HR21s, she said didn't care enough about the additional HD channels to give up DLB.
> 
> When people in the know say that they can't say why, in my professional experience it's always a legal reason. I suspect they DLB would violate a contract or patent. Since the patents are public and don't seem to clearly identify DLB as a patented feature, I suspect it's a contract issue. Also, the 90 min SLB seems to be a way to get around some legal restriction on 30 min DLB.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> PS, no HR21 for us until there is a working DLB or something reasonably close, and real OTA.
> 
> Is Dish really closer to a Tivo than the HR21?


I'm a big supporter of *DLB* so I understand the frustation.

However, it is not a contractual issue. Here is a post about the agreement between Directv and Tivo.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1347381&postcount=2320.

It never has been a legal issue. Earlier in this thread you can find many statements that Directv was looking into how to implement *DLB*. The final word from Directv was they decided not to include it.

I do feel your pain. I originally upgraded to the HR20 because Directv was telling us that they were working on it. If you search you'll find I was as disappointed as anyone. I've had a lot to say in this thread about *DLB*. I wrote letter #2 in the first post of the thread and did a lot of research into what other units do. This post is part of that research.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1020690&postcount=1046

With that said, I couldn't be happier with my HR20. The other features and huge amount of HD more than make up for the missing *DLB*.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still complain about not having and arguing for *DLB*. I just won't make it the defining factor.

IMHO, there is so much more about the HR2x and Directv that over rides my dissappointment about *DLB*. Show me somewhere you can get this many HD channels. Not counting PPV, on demand, and RSNs that I don't get 24/7 I have 65 HD channels. Nearly all the channels my family and I watch are in that list. Include HD-PPV the that makes 77 channels.

Finally, all isn't lost. Here is an excellent post about how to approximate *DLB*. We finally have a work around thats works well enough that it's nearly like having *DLB*. After the work around is setup (a couple of presses of buttons) it's just a single button press to swap back and forth between to live programs. This is something reasonable close.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343227&postcount=1

I hope this info helps.

Mike


----------



## inkahauts

AZ_Engineer said:


> Just read the entire thread. Did it while my wife was using DLB on the HR10 in the bedroom. When I told her we wouldn't have DLB on the new HR21s, she said didn't care enough about the additional HD channels to give up DLB.
> 
> When people in the know say that they can't say why, in my professional experience it's always a legal reason. I suspect they DLB would violate a contract or patent. Since the patents are public and don't seem to clearly identify DLB as a patented feature, I suspect it's a contract issue. Also, the 90 min SLB seems to be a way to get around some legal restriction on 30 min DLB.
> 
> Just my 2 cents
> 
> PS, no HR21 for us until there is a working DLB or something reasonably close, and real OTA.
> 
> Is Dish really closer to a Tivo than the HR21?


Real OTA solution coming very soon... see http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=115134

Reasonably close is also here, with a properly functioning SLB.

And for whoever said that the Dish DVR is more like a tivo, and thats why they are being sued and not DirecTV, you should know that because of the DirecTivos from the past, Directv and Tivo have an agreement to not sue each other over any patents, etc, until 2010 ( I think thats correct, it got renewed last year) However, now that Directv owns Replay, Tivo Can't sue them anyway, because of an agreement they came to with Replay years ago. neither can sue the other for their DVR capabilities. I take this as a sign that Directv plans to not reup their Tivo agreement in a few years, but who knows....


----------



## raott

AZ_Engineer said:


> When people in the know say that they can't say why, in my professional experience it's always a legal reason. I suspect they DLB would violate a contract or patent. Since the patents are public and don't seem to clearly identify DLB as a patented feature, I suspect it's a contract issue.


IMO, its more of a "we didn't do our homework upfront" issue - ie no Six Sigma for design, no customer CTQ's, no design for the consumer. Keep in mind this was the same team that brought you the "two push guide" when the HR20 was introduced - something that never would have made it through a Six Sigma for design analysis.

Now, whats done is done and, if the design and IT department at D* works like any other large corporation I've worked for, this is a low item on the to-do list because it probably generates nothing in return.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

MicroBeta said:


> I'm a big supporter of *DLB* However, it is not a contractual issue. Here is a post about the agreement between Directv and Tivo.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1347381&postcount=2320.
> 
> It never has been a legal issue.


As I read this, it's not a legal issue as long as the license agreement is in effect. Seems to me that if Directv wanted the features to continue after 2010, they would have to sign another license agreement. I can easily see how Directv would be hesitant to deploy millions of HR21s dependent upon a licence agreement that ends in 2010 (just 2 years).



MicroBeta said:


> Earlier in this thread you can find many statements that Directv was looking into how to implement *DLB*. The final word from Directv was they decided not to include it.


This could easily be because they were trying to find a legal way to do it, and when Dish lost the legal battle with Tivo, Directv decided there was no way to without vioalting Tivo patents. So...they decided to buy Replay. If I remember correctly, Replay and Tivo signed a long term cross license a few years ago. Now people who claim to know the plan for DLB say they can't talk about it. Maybe it will be based on Replay technology?



MicroBeta said:


> With that said, I couldn't be happier with my HR20. The other features and huge amount of HD more than make up for the missing *DLB*.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'll still complain about not having and arguing for *DLB*. I just won't make it the defining factor.
> 
> IMHO, there is so much more about the HR2x and Directv that over rides my dissappointment about *DLB*. Show me somewhere you can get this many HD channels. Not counting PPV, on demand, and RSNs that I don't get 24/7 I have 65 HD channels. Nearly all the channels my family and I watch are in that list. Include HD-PPV the that makes 77 channels.


Other than more HD content, some PPV, what are the other key features or improvements over the HR10-250?



MicroBeta said:


> Finally, all isn't lost. Here is an excellent post about how to approximate *DLB*. We finally have a work around thats works well enough that it's nearly like having *DLB*. After the work around is setup (a couple of presses of buttons) it's just a single button press to swap back and forth between to live programs. This is something reasonable close.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343227&postcount=1
> 
> I hope this info helps.
> 
> Mike


Does this work on the HR21? From reading this entire thread, it looks like that only works on the HR20 because of some pause bug. Supposedly being fixed, but not one button jump now because every time you jump, you lose the pause position.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

AZ_Engineer said:


> Does this work on the HR21? From reading this entire thread, it looks like that only works on the HR20 because of some pause bug. Supposedly being fixed, but not one button jump now because every time you jump, you lose the pause position.


Probably not till the HR21 gets it next national release...


----------



## raott

AZ_Engineer said:


> This could easily be because they were trying to find a legal way to do it, and when Dish lost the legal battle with Tivo, Directv decided there was no way to without vioalting Tivo patents. So...they decided to buy Replay. If I remember correctly, Replay and Tivo signed a long term cross license a few years ago. Now people who claim to know the plan for DLB say they can't talk about it. Maybe it will be based on Replay technology?


But Motorola found a way to do DLBs on the 6412/6416s.

IMO, it isn't a contractual issue, it isn't a patent issue, it is simply not doing homework upfront and now not having the resources to devote to changing it because there isn't a quantifiable payback.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> But Motorola found a way to do DLBs on the 6412/6416s.
> 
> IMO, it isn't a contractual issue, it isn't a patent issue, it is simply not doing homework upfront and now not having the resources to devote to changing it because there isn't a quantifiable payback.


They have more then enough resources to put it in there, if they WANTED it to be there.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> They have more then enough resources to put it in there, if they WANTED it to be there.


Why would you not want a feature that two of your biggest competitors have (Dish and Comcast)?


----------



## Green23

raott said:


> Why would you not want a feature that two of your biggest competitors have (Dish and Comcast)?


I agree- why have a "2 tuner" DVR when you can't change between them? If you can't switch between 2 independent tuners with buffer, then I don't see the advantages of this system.


----------



## jiserrab

Earl Bonovich said:


> Probably not till the HR21 gets it next national release...


Oh...OK. Thanks! Thought I was doing something wrong...I could never get the "workaround" to work and finally gave up...the paused channel just kept going back to the beginning. BTW any estimate when the next NR will be?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

AZ_Engineer said:


> Other than more HD content, some PPV, what are the other key features or improvements over the HR10-250?


Ethernet, Media Share, Video on Demand, Game Lounge, eSATA for bigger drive to record more hours, Remote Booking...

Mike


----------



## ShiningBengal

Green23 said:


> I agree- why have a "2 tuner" DVR when you can't change between them? If you can't switch between 2 independent tuners with buffer, then I don't see the advantages of this system.


For when you are recording two shows that overlap, or go beyond the scheduled time (such as sports programming). Or for when you want to record something and watch something else live. In other words, the main reasons people need 2 tuners.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

raott said:


> But Motorola found a way to do DLBs on the 6412/6416s.
> 
> IMO, it isn't a contractual issue, it isn't a patent issue, it is simply not doing homework upfront and now not having the resources to devote to changing it because there isn't a quantifiable payback.


In my work experience, patents are a very gray area. Say you are a small company, or you don't hold many patents, but you have one or a few good ones. This ends up being rather useless because large companied can do what they want because they will have dozens, maybe hundreds or thousands of patents that "read on" the little companies technology. In my experience, the company with lots of patents in the area will just do whatever they want based on two assumptions should a patent dispute arise;
1) company with lots of patents will have at least some where small company is infringing
2) small company won't have very deep pockets for a protracted legal battle anyway.
Sometimes this back fires. Go Video had a very basic patent on dual deck VCRs. Sony and all the others infringed on Go Video's patent and were sued. In the end, Go Video won several hunderd million dollars from the large CE guys. Usually this doesn't happen.

In this case, Directv is not a technology company, so they don't have many patents (assumption). Tivo has some patents. On my two points above, Directv fails test one, but could pass test 2. Then Tivo wins against Dish. Not assumption #2 is invalid in this case. So, Directv buys Replay who has a cross license with Tivo.

I don't know any facts in this case, but I see this happen every day in the technology world. All large companied I know tell their engineers to not even look for patents, just design what is most efficent. The lawyers say if they get sued, they will sue back for infringment against the big companies patents. I assume Tivo and Replay each infringed each others patents so they did a cross license rather than fight in court...joe


----------



## Doug Brott

As has been noted in the past, DLB has zero to do with Patents held by TiVo. TiVo does hold some Patents related to the DVR, but I don't think anyone has uncovered any evidence to suggest that TiVo has a Patent on DLB.

In addition, DIRECTV currently has access to all of TiVo's Patents. What is unclear is how that arrangement fits after the current agreement ends in 2010. I'm sure DIRECTV's lawyers are smart enough to not allow a cliff in 2010 that would cause folks to all of a sudden lose access to certain features, but what that means, I don't know.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

This thread is still going?


----------



## James Long

Radio Enginerd said:


> This thread is still going?


No. It ended months ago.


----------



## Lord Vader

Over? Did you say it was over? _*Nothing*_ is over till *WE* say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?


----------



## Steve

Lord Vader said:


> Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?


Ya. And when the Japanese bombed London?  /steve


----------



## Lord Vader

I hope, at least, you DID get my post.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Green23 said:


> I agree- why have a "2 tuner" DVR when you can't change between them? If you can't switch between 2 independent tuners with buffer, then I don't see the advantages of this system.


Is the primary purpose a DVR... to RECORD (it's in it's name).

2 Tuners, give you the ability to RECORD two things at once.

Not WATCH to LIVE program at once....

In theory... record the other "important program"... watch the one live with all the buffer options, then watch the second, when you can dedicate your attention to it...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> Why would you not want a feature that two of your biggest competitors have (Dish and Comcast)?


Their biggest competitor has VooM... should they add that?
They also charge for their external hard drive solution... should they do that?

COMCAST, is inconsitant accross their markets, should they do that?
They charge a DVR fee (by the higher rental cost) for each DVR?... Shoud they do that to?

Just because the othe guys hasn't, doesn't always make it a necessary feature on every platform.


----------



## oenophile

What would be the down-side to having it? Who would complain? That's the main thing I don't see answered here or anywhere else: Not why don't they do it; why wouldn't they do it? Clearly a large number of people want it. No-one I can think of would dislike it. So why not?

(Resources -- check; patent clearance -- check (apparently); hardware ability -- check; what else am I missing? Why not?)


----------



## vankai

oenophile said:


> What would be the down-side to having it? Who would complain? That's the main thing I don't see answered here or anywhere else: Not why don't they do it; why wouldn't they do it? Clearly a large number of people want it. No-one I can think of would dislike it. So why not?
> 
> (Resources -- check; patent clearance -- check (apparently); hardware ability -- check; what else am I missing? Why not?)


EB also works for NSA...........go ahead, try and squeeze it out of him.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Is the primary purpose a DVR... to RECORD (it's in it's name).


I agree, so why the need for Media Share, DOD, interactive gaming, etc. if a DVR is just a recording device? I can understand that DLB was just left out by choice, but throwing in these other features instead that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of the DVR doesn't make sense to me. They are trying to emulate competitor's units, but are doing so with an odd priority list for added features.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> No. It ended months ago.


Ba Dum Bum Crash..:lol: of course you could be right



Lord Vader said:


> Over? Did you say it was over? _*Nothing*_ is over till *WE* say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?


FOOD FIGHT!

IMHO, it's hasn't ended because we like disscussing *DLB*.

As long as it's civilized, it will go on for a while longer.

Mike


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> They also charge for their external hard drive solution... should they do that?


D* is about to start charging for their OTA solution, so it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they did.



Earl Bonovich said:


> COMCAST, is inconsitant accross their markets, should they do that?


I didn't realize inconsistency was a feature. I guess that explains why the HR20 still does not record kids shows with any kind of consistency.



Earl Bonovich said:


> They charge a DVR fee (by the higher rental cost) for each DVR?... Shoud they do that to?


D* charges $200 upfront - Comcast does not.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Is the primary purpose a DVR... to RECORD (it's in it's name).
> 
> 2 Tuners, give you the ability to RECORD two things at once.
> 
> Not WATCH to LIVE program at once....
> 
> In theory... record the other "important program"... watch the one live with all the buffer options, then watch the second, when you can dedicate your attention to it...


People do not watch TV the same. You have said many times, everything you watch is recorded. I would suspect that is not true about 95% of the other people out there, they watch a mix of live and recorded TV.


----------



## msmith198025

raott said:


> D* is about to start charging for their OTA solution, so it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they did.
> 
> D* charges $200 upfront - Comcast does not.


True, and untrue. Yes, if you have an HR-21 you will have to buy/lease the tuner box (if you want OTA through the D* guide), but there is no monthly fee associated with it (or it hasnt been announced). There is also no extra charge for any other box that D* has out.

Also, it is possible for a sub to get credits to offset the $199, or even get it for free.


----------



## rick71ghia

Earl Bonovich said:


> They have more then enough resources to put it in there, if they WANTED it to be there.


If you go back through this thread, you will see where Earl has said

They are working on it (looking at the best way to implement it)

It's not a legal/patent issue

From a technical/hardware standpoint, it can be done

It is not an issue of pressure from the advertisers

At some point it will become clear why it's not there

I know why it's not there but I can't tell you

Now we are told it's not a resource issue - If they WANTED it there it would be there

So, why don't they want it there? A simple statement like there is not enough demand for this feature so we're not going to do it would put the whole thing to rest. I understand that they have no obligation to tell us why they make certain decisions, but why let this thing just drag on and continue to frustrate many people? A thread with almost 2500 replies and over 130,000 views shows that there are people who are interested.

I don't post here generally and only come by from time to time to check on the status of DLB and other features that I'm interested in (e.g., MRV). DLB is a feature that I like for sporting events and that my wife uses everyday for watching morning shows (Today and Good Morning America) and the evening news. DLB allows her to watch the best content of each show in the same amount of time that one show airs. It's not something that she wants to give up.

To me, this comes across like Mommy why can't I have ice cream for dessert? BECAUSE! At the end of the day it's their decision, but not a very satisfying response.

Please note that I am not trying to attack Earl. I believe that I have accurately stated what he has told us but did not go back and read the entire thread again. He has been straight with us and told us what can. Without him we would have even less information.


----------



## raott

msmith198025 said:


> True, and untrue. Yes, if you have an HR-21 you will have to buy/lease the tuner box (if you want OTA through the D* guide), but there is no monthly fee associated with it (or it hasnt been announced). There is also no extra charge for any other box that D* has out.
> 
> Also, it is possible for a sub to get credits to offset the $199, or even get it for free.


To your first point, I didn't say there was a monthly fee, Earl was using the practice of charging for an external hard drive solution as an analogy - obviously not everyone is going to need an external drive solution just as not everyone is going to need OTA. Whether it is a monthly charge or an upfront charge is irrelevant.

To your second point, those getting enough credits to offset the $199 are few and far between - there may have been multiple threads about the clamping down on credits.

With that said, neither has anything to do with DLBs not being on the HR2x and IMO it was a poor analogy to make in the first place.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> Is the primary purpose a DVR... to RECORD (it's in it's name).
> 
> 2 Tuners, give you the ability to RECORD two things at once.
> 
> Not WATCH to LIVE program at once....
> 
> In theory... record the other "important program"... watch the one live with all the buffer options, then watch the second, when you can dedicate your attention to it...


Earl, PLEASE stop using this argument. You sound like a member of the former Soviet government saying, 'You must watch TV the way we say you should!' when you make this point. Everyone is different in the way they use a DVR and I would argue that having two buffers should be classified as a standard feature of a DVR. Is a buffer not a recording also? I think so. From Webster's: RECORDER - a machine or device that records.

What constitutes that a 'recording' has to be defined as something that gets added to the playlist for later viewing? I think you need to look at DLB in a larger context. People that post how much they miss DLB aren't posting that DirecTV's products can't handle the functionality, but we want a more USER-FRIENDLY way to access that additional 'recording', buffer, w/e you want to call it.

Also, as others have said, what's the point of GamesLounge, On-Demand, PPV, MediaShare, etc. on a DVR. You need to move out of the late 90's, early 2000's and into 2008. DirecTV's home media receivers are just that, home MEDIA products. The definition of a DVR as a standalone device is pretty much dead.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Earl, PLEASE stop using this argument. You sound like a member of the former Soviet government saying, 'You must watch TV the way we say you should!' when you make this point. Everyone is different in the way they use a DVR and I would argue that having two buffers should be classified as a standard feature of a DVR. Is a buffer not a recording also? I think so. From Webster's: RECORDER - a machine or device that records.
> 
> What constitutes that a 'recording' has to be defined as something that gets added to the playlist for later viewing? I think you need to look at DLB in a larger context. People that post how much they miss DLB aren't posting that DirecTV's products can't handle the functionality, but we want a more USER-FRIENDLY way to access that additional 'recording', buffer, w/e you want to call it.
> 
> Also, as others have said, what's the point of GamesLounge, On-Demand, PPV, MediaShare, etc. on a DVR. You need to move out of the late 90's, early 2000's and into 2008. DirecTV's home media receivers are just that, home MEDIA products. The definition of a DVR as a standalone device is pretty much dead.


Wait one minute......

Have I told any of you to stop using "YOUR" arguments on why DLB should be there?

People have asked WHY it was not there in the first place....
And that is the 100% EXACT reason...

DirecTV designed their receiver to RECORD 2 things at once, not WATCH 2 LIVE program at once.... End of story.

As for why they have decided not to introduce it to the platform...
They have their reasons... and I can't share with them.

I know that seems to be astronomically hard to understand for some of you... but those are the facts of the situation... like it or not... that is what it is.

And frankly yes... all those other features are outside of the "RECORD" aspect... and honestly... I could do with out everyone of them...

Am I happy they are there... yep...
Am I not going to use them... nope... because they are there.

But at the end of the day... I care about 1 primary function of my system.

That it records my shows, and the shows are there when I want to watch them. That's it...

You are right... everyone watches their TV different ways.
And everyone needs to find a solution that matches their way of watching it.

If DLB is a requirement... must have... can't live without... my world will come to an end if I can't watch two live events at once...

They need to find the service/equipment that serves their needs... 
Everyone has an alternative choice... Either TiVo Series 3 and OTAs... their local cable-co's, or DishNetwork.... or even a PC or something...

That's it... This is going on now 26 months... (going all the way back to the R15 launch) the "tune" hasn't changed... there is no DLB... by DirecTV's own choice.

This thread is now over 100 pages long...

And what has changed? *NOTHING*
The status of DLB is exactly the same as it was back the day the thread was started.

The reason on WHY DLB wasn't in the original designs of the DVR+ systems...
Hasn't change, and never will change... as that is the *EXACT* reason on why they were not there.

Does this all mean DLB will *NEVER* come... no...
But at what point do you finally realize this... and move on.... and either adjust your viewing methods, to the technology you have...

Or change the technology you have to fit within your TV viewing habits...


----------



## tiger2005

Not enough sleep as CES??? Someone sounds tired. 

Note to self, per Earl: Don't ever push companies that provide CUSTOMERS a service to enhance their products with better features. Just accept what they provide and live with it. Great! I think I understand now. :sure:


----------



## Que

Earl Bonovich said:


> Is the primary purpose a DVR... to RECORD (it's in it's name).





Dr. Booda said:


> I agree, so why the need for Media Share, DOD, interactive gaming, etc. if a DVR is just a recording device? I can understand that DLB was just left out by choice, but throwing in these other features instead that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of the DVR doesn't make sense to me. They are trying to emulate competitor's units, but are doing so with an odd priority list for added features.


+++ Come on interactive gaming!!! :nono: Just give us what we use on our DVR almost everyday!


----------



## Steve

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree, so why the need for Media Share, DOD, interactive gaming, etc. if a DVR is just a recording device? I can understand that DLB was just left out by choice, but throwing in these other features instead that have nothing to do with the primary purpose of the DVR doesn't make sense to me. They are trying to emulate competitor's units, but are doing so with an odd priority list for added features.


I agree. If DirecTV just offered me the option of a basic, kick-ass TV recording/watching appliance (no active channel or interactive features), I'd snap it up in a second. DLB would be nice too, but not a deal breaker based on my viewing habits. I do understand why others want it, tho. /steve


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Not enough sleep as CES??? Someone sounds tired.


No... plenty of sleep...



tiger2005 said:


> Note to self, per Earl: Don't ever push companies that provide CUSTOMERS a service to enhance their products with better features. Just accept what they provide and live with it. Great! I think I understand now. :sure:


You can push them all you want...
I never told you to stop.... did I?

Doesn't change the facts of the situation though.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Que said:


> +++ Come on interactive gaming!!! :nono: Just give us what we use on our DVR almost everyday!


This is getting rediculous...

This is no longer a discussion... but more of a *blank*/moan session.
If anyone is intrested in continuing the discussion of it.... please do so...

But the facts of the situation are the facts of the situation.

It has been 2 years since the DVR+ platform was introduced without DLB...
And guess what...

The Sun still rises in the East... Sets in the West
People are still using the DVR in growing numbers...
DirecTV hasn't crumbled and fell without DLB...
There hasn't been the predicted mass-exidous...

People still manage to watch what they want...


----------



## dennisj00

If 77% of my polled customers responded that the feature is a "Must Have" - and I realize these polls aren't scientifically accurate - but 77% is a pretty solid indication -- I'd either make the feature available or produce a reason that it's not feasible.

I've had a HR20 since September and finally the SINGLE live buffer works. I've never seen any explanation why DLB isn't possible - only Earl's comments that it won't EVER happen.

Other than recording a second program, there's no way to get to the second tuner without dumping the current buffer -- that SUCKS. Sometimes I want to watch 2 things at a time - no matter what you say!

Earl, I see in your signature that all your comments are your own and don't reflect anything about dbstalk or directv. Maybe you need a different login when you're moderating and providing info from Directv?


----------



## dieseladdict

I have both a H10 and a HR20 (recent addition). The newest CE firmware on the HR20 is a suitable replacement (for me) to the DLB function on the H10. Using the PREV button on the HR20 remote after you have everything set up makes it as easy to use as the LiveTV button on the TiVo. Having the 90min buffer is quite nice.

While I would like to have a true DLB in the HR20, I can accept this compromise. I certainly appreciate DTV for giving us this workaround. 

The processing speed of the new box is a pleasant change over the H10. No waiting around for menus and such. Thumbs up for that!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dennisj00 said:


> If 77% of my polled customers responded that the feature is a "Must Have" - and I realize these polls aren't scientifically accurate - but 77% is a pretty solid indication -- I'd either make the feature available or produce a reason that it's not feasible.


77% of people that visit this forum... so it is one nitch of the big picture.



dennisj00 said:


> I've had a HR20 since September and finally the SINGLE live buffer works. I've never seen any explanation why DLB isn't possible - only Earl's comments that it won't EVER happen.


I have actually said it *IS* possible.
-) There is no technical limitation
-) There is no legal/patent limitation

The reason is that DirecTV has decided, they did not want DLB in their units.
Plain and simple... pass that.. there is no other explanation that will be given or provided.. That's it... DirecTV chose to not add DLB to their units.



dennisj00 said:


> Earl, I see in your signature that all your comments are your own and don't reflect anything about dbstalk or directv. Maybe you need a different login when you're moderating and providing info from Directv?


Thanks for the suggestion... isn't going to happen.

I make it very clear when the messages I am posting come from DirecTV and when I am moderating, I make it clear that it is moderating.
(aka... I remove my signature 99% of the time, when I doing most of those actions)

Everything else... is my own opinion and words.


----------



## Steve

dennisj00 said:


> If 77% of my polled customers responded that the feature is a "Must Have" - and I realize these polls aren't scientifically accurate - but 77% is a pretty solid indication -- I'd either make the feature available or produce a reason that it's not feasible.


I wouldn't be surprised if we reset the voting and started over if the %'s might change somewhat. Would it be significant? I don't know, but when I first voted in this poll, I had just left my HR10, so this was a "must have" feature for me. Some 8 months after living without DLB's, I realize it's no longer that important to me, and may no longer be for others as well. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## James Long

dennisj00 said:


> - only Earl's comments that it won't EVER happen.


"Won't ever happen" is a misquote. Look back a couple of posts:


Earl Bonovich said:


> Does this all mean DLB will NEVER come... no...
> But at what point do you finally realize this... and move on.... and either adjust your viewing methods, to the technology you have...





dennisj00 said:


> Other than recording a second program, there's no way to get to the second tuner without dumping the current buffer -- that SUCKS. Sometimes I want to watch 2 things at a time - no matter what you say!


So ... it the record button for each program and flip back and forth to your heart's content. Then delete the program(s) you don't want to keep.

Yes, Virginia, you CAN watch two programs at once!
Or is it just too difficult to use the receiver the way it was designed?


----------



## MikeR7

Earl Bonovich said:


> Their biggest competitor has VooM... should they add that?
> They also charge for their external hard drive solution... should they do that?
> 
> COMCAST, is inconsitant accross their markets, should they do that?
> They charge a DVR fee (by the higher rental cost) for each DVR?... Shoud they do that to?
> 
> Just because the othe guys hasn't, doesn't always make it a necessary feature on every platform.


This made me think about the fact that in our area, our cable company, Charter, will only *allow *you one HD-DVR and charge you $17.95 a month for ever to use it. Plus it only holds 10 hours of recordings. What a deal! :lol:

I am supremely happy with my two HR20's and look forward to having more HR21's in the future, as many as I want.


----------



## MikeR7

Steve said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we reset the voting and started over if the %'s might change somewhat. Would it be significant? I don't know, but when I first voted in this poll, I had just left my HR10, so this was a "must have" feature for me. Some 8 months after living without DLB's, I realize it's no longer that important to me, and may no longer be for others as well. Just my .02. /steve


We definitely need a new poll for Que to keep bumping to the top!!:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## raott

James Long said:


> Or is it just too difficult to use the receiver the way it was designed?


I guess every thread that has anything to do with changing way the HR20 currently operates should be locked. Gosh forbid there be objective discussion on what many perceive as a shortcoming.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> I guess every thread that has anything to do with changing way the HR20 currently operates should be locked. Gosh forbid there be objective discussion on what many perceive as a shortcoming.


This thread is "objective" ?

You are more then welcome to continue the discussion... we haven't closed the thread... have we?


----------



## Que

Steve said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we reset the voting and started over if the %'s might change somewhat. Would it be significant? I don't know, but when I first voted in this poll, I had just left my HR10, so this was a "must have" feature for me. Some 8 months after living without DLB's, I realize it's no longer that important to me, and may no longer be for others as well. Just my .02. /steve


You can still get and idea what that % is. I try and get the stats about every month.

Today 
A must have! 2715 77.55%
Don't really care about it. 170 4.86%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 616 17.59%
Voters: 3501. 
Replies 2,514 Views 132,191

1-11-08


Que said:


> A must have! 2680 77.41%
> Don't really care about it. 170 4.91%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 612 17.68%
> Voters: 3462
> 
> Replies 2,453
> Views 129,736


12-12-07


Que said:


> A must have! 2546 77.29%
> Don't really care about it. 163 4.95%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 585 17.76%
> Voters: 3294.
> 
> Replies 2,182
> Views 117,826


11-20-07


Que said:


> A must have! 2444 77.27%
> Don't really care about it. 154 4.87%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 565 17.86%
> Voters: 3163
> 
> Replies- 1,921
> Views- 108,017


9-18-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1932 *76.55%*
> Don't really care about it. 138 5.47%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 454 17.99%
> Voters: 2524.
> 
> Replies *1,514*
> Views * 83,284 *


You can just click on my name and get more info.

DVR+ line is a great DVR, I just want the same option (DLB) that is on all other DVRs. I can only hope that it get done before I have to turn off my HR10.

List of some DVRs with DLB

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## Que

MikeR7 said:


> We definitely need a new poll for Que to keep bumping to the top!!:lol: :lol: :lol:


Hehe I never need to bump a DLB thread, it just goes on it's own.


----------



## James Long

raott said:


> I guess every thread that has anything to do with changing way the HR20 currently operates should be locked. Gosh forbid there be objective discussion on what many perceive as a shortcoming.


Objective? That boat has sailed.

The point has been made ... people who care about DLB want DLB. The request has been made ... D* knows that there is interested in DLB ... they have also apparently made a decision not to offer it. Until that decision is reversed you're tilting at windmills!

So what is the point of this thread? Is it a contest to see who can come up with the ONE POST that will convince D* to "relent" and add the feature? That would be a much smaller thread. Is it a petition or cause thread (prohibited by the site rules if it were considered as such)? It is getting there. It certainly isn't an "objective discussion". 

Anyways ... enough about the thread and back to the topic ... even if it is tilting at windmills.


----------



## BersaMan II

James Long said:


> Objective? That boat has sailed.
> 
> The point has been made ... people who care about DLB want DLB. The request has been made ... D* knows that there is interested in DLB ... they have also apparently made a decision not to offer it. Until that decision is reversed you\'re tilting at windmills!
> 
> So what is the point of this thread? Is it a contest to see who can come up with the ONE POST that will convince D* to "relent" and add the feature? That would be a much smaller thread. Is it a petition or cause thread (prohibited by the site rules if it were considered as such)? It is getting there. It certainly isn\'t an "objective discussion".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways ... enough about the thread and back to the topic ... even if it is tilting at windmills.


If the decision is positively NO, I vote for closing this thread period! That is if I can have a vote?


----------



## Steve

Que said:


> Today
> A must have! 2715 77.55%
> Don't really care about it. 170 4.86%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 616 17.59%
> Voters: 3501.
> Replies 2,514 Views 132,191


Well like I said before, "Today" might not be entirely accurate. Given the chance to vote again, I'd change my vote. That's just me, though. /steve


----------



## James Long

Que said:


> You can still get and idea what that % is. I try and get the stats about every month.


That works (somewhat) if you look at the change. It doesn't show the change in opinion of those who have already voted - but:

9-18 to 11-20: 639 voters - 80% Must Have, 2.5% don't care.
11-20 to 12-12: 131 voters - 78% Must Have, 6.8% don't care.
12-12 to 1-11: 168 voters - 79% Must Have, 4.2% don't care.
Since 1-11: 39 voters - 89% Must Have, no new "don't care".

But my question is ... after over 2700 votes - where are we getting people to vote that wouldn't have expressed their opinion five MONTHS ago? Did they just not care before?

This kind of thread naturally attracts those in favor of "the cause". I'm actually surprised that the additional voters are generally consistent with the early voters. (I take the final 89% as too small of a sample.)


----------



## n3ntj

Any idea if D* is working on making this feature available on the HR20/HR21 series IRDs? I see DLB as essential to anyone who watches sports. If D* keeps an eye on DBStalk.com, I can't imagine they don't know their customers want this feature, but we never hear if D* is working to implement this feature.


----------



## msmith198025

James Long said:


> But my question is ... after over 2700 votes - where are we getting people to vote that wouldn't have expressed their opinion five MONTHS ago? Did they just not care before?
> 
> This kind of thread naturally attracts those in favor of "the cause". I'm actually surprised that the additional voters are generally consistent with the early voters. (I take the final 89% as too small of a sample.)


Wow, I am with James on this

What happend to make them wait so long to vote, this poll is at the top of the page every day!

I also agree on the alst point, too few votesfor the last sample


----------



## dennisj00

Just posted this on the latest CE HR20-700 thread after my earlier post here about wanting DLB . . .

I guess the DLB gods aren't happy -- I just posted a positive opinion for DLB over on the Q&A thread an hour or so ago.

Was recording 2-30 minute segments and watching those (in succession) while switching back to the live buffer to 'simulate' a DLB that the HR20 doesn't have.

Finished the first recording, deleted it with the prompt, returned to the live buffer at the pause point. Continued through the second program, probably 30 minutes or so behind on the live buffer. When I deleted the second program at the prompt, the live buffer wouldn't restart. Rewind, FF or skip all worked, just with a blank screen and no audio.

Only got video back by switching channels -- and losing the Live buffer!!

Great workaround! If it worked.


----------



## dennisj00

Ref: Why didn't they vote five months ago?

Don't forget, people are finding this forum every day. Not all of us were here months or years ago.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

msmith198025 said:


> What happend to make them wait so long to vote, this poll is at the top of the page every day!


Kinda helps that it is a STUCK thread


----------



## msmith198025

Earl Bonovich said:


> Kinda helps that it is a STUCK thread


I understand that, kind of my point


----------



## Mike Bertelson

n3ntj said:


> Any idea if D* is working on making this feature available on the HR20/HR21 series IRDs? I see DLB as essential to anyone who watches sports. If D* keeps an eye on DBStalk.com, I can't imagine they don't know their customers want this feature, but we never hear if D* is working to implement this feature.


Unfortunately, the is ≈0% chance it will be in the HR2x DVRs.

Next gen units...I go nothing. 

Mike


----------



## SlimyPizza

“It has been 2 years since the DVR+ platform was introduced without DLB...
And guess what...

The Sun still rises in the East... Sets in the West
People are still using the DVR in growing numbers...
DirecTV hasn't crumbled and fell without DLB...
There hasn't been the predicted mass-exidous...”

The above was quoted from an earlier poster and seems to mock those who have expressed their opinion and desire for improvement in terms of DLB functionality.

DTV is aware there are growing numbers of customers who want this very desirable feature (DLB). In spite of this they observe that their customer base is increasing so the expressed need has been ignored. Thanks DTV. DLB wouldn’t be an issue if it weren’t for the fact that Tivo introduced it already and most of the current customer base has used and enjoyed this feature. This is a feature which naturally fits with the viewing habits of the majority of DTV customers. 
It’s pretty clear that DTV is on a different path than the majority of its customers which use this forum as detailed by the vote (currently 77.5% of the customers here say DLB is a must have). It’s a shame that a sought after feature is withheld and customer opinions on this topic ignored. Mostly though, it's disappointing that DTV is not committed to providing the best viewing experience possible to their loyal and growing customer base.


----------



## Drew2k

SlimyPizza said:


> The above was quoted from an earlier poster and seems to mock those who have expressed their opinion and desire for improvement in terms of DLB functionality.


You can hit the "Reply with Quote" button and the post you are referencing will automatically be quoted with the name of the writer and it will include a link to the source.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

SlimyPizza said:


> "It has been 2 years since the DVR+ platform was introduced without DLB...
> And guess what...
> 
> The Sun still rises in the East... Sets in the West
> People are still using the DVR in growing numbers...
> DirecTV hasn't crumbled and fell without DLB...
> There hasn't been the predicted mass-exidous..."
> 
> The above was quoted from an earlier poster and seems to mock those who have expressed their opinion and desire for improvement in terms of DLB functionality.
> 
> DTV is aware there are growing numbers of customers who want this very desirable feature (DLB). In spite of this they observe that their customer base is increasing so the expressed need has been ignored. Thanks DTV. DLB wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for the fact that Tivo introduced it already and most of the current customer base has used and enjoyed this feature. This is a feature which naturally fits with the viewing habits of the majority of DTV customers.
> It's pretty clear that DTV is on a different path than the majority of its customers which use this forum as detailed by the vote (currently 77.5% of the customers here say DLB is a must have). It's a shame that a sought after feature is withheld and customer opinions on this topic ignored. Mostly though, it's disappointing that DTV is not committed to providing the best viewing experience possible to their loyal and growing customer base.


That's definitly not a fair assessment of the quote.

This is long thread and you have to take it in context. I think he was just trying to make the point that *DLB* is not end-all-to-be-all.

Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

Seems like we need to put a reminder every other page or so, this thread won't be closed until a definitive resolution has occurred. 

Any closing before that point will just create more threads of discussion and even more redundancy of the discussion. 

If anyone would rather not read this thread, I suggest don't. (Except the moderators that is, we rarely get to ignore threads very long.) 

So, please don't try to "vote this thread closed", or ask for this thread to be closed. If you must say something along those lines, PM a moderator. We'll likely give you this same answer. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## msmith198025

MicroBeta said:


> That's definitly not a fair assessment of the quote.
> 
> This is long thread and you have to take it in context. I think he was just trying to make the point that *DLB[/] is not end-all-to-be-all.
> 
> Mike*


*

+1*


----------



## BigLars

dennisj00 said:


> Was recording 2-30 minute segments and watching those (in succession) while switching back to the live buffer to 'simulate' a DLB that the HR20 doesn't have.
> 
> Finished the first recording, deleted it with the prompt, returned to the live buffer at the pause point. Continued through the second program, probably 30 minutes or so behind on the live buffer. When I deleted the second program at the prompt, the live buffer wouldn't restart. Rewind, FF or skip all worked, just with a blank screen and no audio.
> 
> Only got video back by switching channels -- and losing the Live buffer!!
> 
> Great workaround! If it worked.


Been there, done that. The 'live' buffer is only on the channel you're viewing AND not recording. If you want to continue watching that channel, you'll have to record each 30 minute show in succession. As far as I can tell, at least on my HR20-100, the the 'record' mode trumps the 'buffer' - when you delete the show you just recorded - even if you're still on the same channel - that's the point when the buffer starts. When in doubt, record!

I've also read this entire thread and I realize that some redundancy is unavoidable. I'm fine with that. Actually my hope is that the sheer volume of posts and views on this topic drives home the point to DTV that, for many of us, this is an important feature to have (back). If they simply "chose" not to implement DLB, perhaps the passion of the posters will inspire them to revisit that choice or at least definitively tell us that it will happen....on the HR30.

My wife and I got very used to the HR10's DLB and miss it terribly. She for CNN and CourtTV and me for sports. I had DLB with Charter's DCT3416 DVR but that was the ONLY thing I liked about cable and after a few months I couldn't get back to DTV quick enough! In their defense, DTV does seem responsive to feedback and many of the HR2x's features are substantial upgrades over the HR10. The extra HD content is a huge plus, even when tiered!. I've been an DTV advocate since 1998 but if they can give me DLB, I'll be an freakin evangelist.

Larry


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> That works (somewhat) if you look at the change. It doesn't show the change in opinion of those who have already voted - but:
> 
> 9-18 to 11-20: 639 voters - 80% Must Have, 2.5% don't care.
> 11-20 to 12-12: 131 voters - 78% Must Have, 6.8% don't care.
> 12-12 to 1-11: 168 voters - 79% Must Have, 4.2% don't care.
> Since 1-11: 39 voters - 89% Must Have, no new "don't care".
> 
> But my question is ... after over 2700 votes - where are we getting people to vote that wouldn't have expressed their opinion five MONTHS ago? Did they just not care before?
> 
> This kind of thread naturally attracts those in favor of "the cause". I'm actually surprised that the additional voters are generally consistent with the early voters. (I take the final 89% as too small of a sample.)


My guess it's all new people that are changing/upgrading to get all the new HD channels. You have to get DirecTV new HR2+ box and most are use to other DVRs that has that option. People just Google HR2+ and find this forum.


----------



## jheda

Thats true. And that is exactly how I found the site, trying to figure out what I'M doing wrong that i cant switch and pause between two channels. Like others I have adopted, *and love the SLB*, and love the hr2x over the tivo: but newbies will continue to find the site looking for answers. To the extent the answer is provided here, a service is performed and potential new members join.

just my Humble Opinion.



Que said:


> My guess it's all new people that are changing/upgrading to get all the new HD channels. You have to get DirecTV new HR2+ box and most are use to other DVRs that has that option. People just Google HR2+ and find this forum.


----------



## dennisj00

I repeated yesterday's DLB 'simulation' without loss of the live buffer today.

Recorded 2 - 30 minute programs in succession while watching the live buffer and switching back and forth.

The main difference is that I didn't delete the recordings from the prompt at the end of each. I switched back to the live buffer and later cleared them from the list.

Almost a DLB.


----------



## Mr. Wednesday

James Long said:


> But my question is ... after over 2700 votes - where are we getting people to vote that wouldn't have expressed their opinion five MONTHS ago? Did they just not care before?


I didn't care before, because I wasn't thinking about any sort of change with my SD Tivo hardware.

I care now, because I got an HDTV shortly after Christmas and I'll be upgrading to HD non-Tivo hardware.


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> I repeated yesterday's DLB 'simulation' without loss of the live buffer today.
> 
> Recorded 2 - 30 minute programs in succession while watching the live buffer and switching back and forth.
> 
> The main difference is that I didn't delete the recordings from the prompt at the end of each. I switched back to the live buffer and later cleared them from the list.
> 
> Almost a DLB.


You know, that might be a valid point .. It is conceivable that the live buffer will get trashed if you delete programs along the way .. I'll mention this to the gentleman who developed the workaround procedure.


----------



## dennisj00

Doug, I'd like to shake your hand! This is the FIRST positive response or acknowledgement of a potential problem / fix that I've seen on almost all responses from anyone with a link to dTV.

It seems everyone has to defend DTv's position.


----------



## Drew2k

Doug Brott said:


> You know, that might be a valid point .. It is conceivable that the live buffer will get trashed if you delete programs along the way .. I'll mention this to the gentleman who developed the workaround procedure.


Doug - I've deleted programs from the playlist while a program was still recording and it never affected the live buffer. I could go back to live TV and rewind still, up to a full 90 minutes.


----------



## elyshaeagle

As the wife of a DTV Dbstalk member I spend many hours with a split screen on my TV reading countless comments and discussions about various features existing and in the works. I have to admit that I felt I finally had to chime in from a non "expert" point of view. ( although I probably know more than the average joe) I simply cannot believe that DTV didn't think that DLB was that important to it's HR20 customers. Obviously someone who would desire and operate a machine that can be networked with your home would also desire a technology so simple that even our comcast receiver offers it for their customers. If you ask someone on the street what DLB is they don't know, but if you describe what it is they want it or have it. Frankly, to me , DLB is one of the top features of a dvr, and why DTV has dropped the ball on this is beyond me, especially when I have seen posts where people were told that DTV was working on ways to implement DLB, then no its not because of reasons that would become apparent. Well what are the reasons? If all of the time spent developing all of the little things (not VOD) had been spent on DLB, I guarantee few would even care about the little things. I love DTV and the HR20 but I think DTV is underestimating or underrealizing the desire for DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> Doug - I've deleted programs from the playlist while a program was still recording and it never affected the live buffer. I could go back to live TV and rewind still, up to a full 90 minutes.


I have not tested this .. We may have a difference in national release vs. CE (which is now staggered release, BTW). Version 0x1EA and beyond function MUCH better with respect to the workaround than version 0x1BE does .. although the latter was very much usable ..

Let's just say that the later firmware releases are closer to being right now and, in my book, that's headed in the right direction.


----------



## Drew2k

Doug Brott said:


> I have not tested this .. We may have a difference in national release vs. CE (which is now staggered release, BTW). Version 0x1EA and beyond function MUCH better with respect to the workaround than version 0x1BE does .. although the latter was very much usable ..
> 
> Let's just say that the later firmware releases are closer to being right now and, in my book, that's headed in the right direction.


This was well before this CE release that I had done this ... Most of my viewing is time-shifted 20 minutes from live, with me going to the Playlist to watch programs so I can skip the you-know-whats. I've been doing this for a very long time, and it was the first CE release that promised no loss of buffer that I started noticing that I can still rewind the live buffer even after deleting a program from the playlist while it still was recording. That is at least a month for the CE that introduced this...


----------



## MarauderFH

I'm not sure why people rage against what would be a feature - much less support the decision not to include it, as its clearly a good feature, and would be optional.

Also, Earl, your rebuttal:



> Have I told any of you to stop using "YOUR" arguments on why DLB should be there?


We simply want the feature. Bottom line - I'm not sure you can really tell someone they don't actually want what they do unless you are acting as the post implied. It seems clear that this is a hot topic, and the reason for probably 90% of the traffic to this site.

I'm also not sure why you threaten to "close the thread" so often - it just appears as if you know DTV is making a poor decision here, and you don't want to argue about it... isn't this debate 101? Anyway, I'm not sure most of your visitors would care if you do lock it - just the regulars.


----------



## James Long

This is DBS Talk, not DLB Talk.
One would hope that the topics would be more diverse! 

But at least we got a good "smilie" out of the debate -
:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Milominderbinder2

dennisj00 said:


> I repeated yesterday's DLB 'simulation' without loss of the live buffer today.
> 
> Recorded 2 - 30 minute programs in succession while watching the live buffer and switching back and forth.
> 
> The main difference is that I didn't delete the recordings from the prompt at the end of each. I switched back to the live buffer and later cleared them from the list.
> 
> Almost a DLB.


Dennis, I am the guy who wrote the workaround. I am not following what you are saying.

Help me understand.

- Craig

- Craig


----------



## Jhon69

Tom Robertson said:


> Seems like we need to put a reminder every other page or so, this thread won't be closed until a definitive resolution has occurred.
> 
> Any closing before that point will just create more threads of discussion and even more redundancy of the discussion.
> 
> If anyone would rather not read this thread, I suggest don't. (Except the moderators that is, we rarely get to ignore threads very long.)
> 
> So, please don't try to "vote this thread closed", or ask for this thread to be closed. If you must say something along those lines, PM a moderator. We'll likely give you this same answer.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hey Tom!.If we solve the riddle do we win a cookie?.


----------



## jahgreen

MarauderFH said:


> the reason for probably 90% of the traffic to this site.


Fortunately, nobody exaggerates when DLB is concerned.


----------



## Steve

jahgreen said:


> Fortunately, nobody exaggerates when DLB is concerned.


Ya. It can't be more than 85%. :lol: /steve


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Well, this topic brought me here to post for the first time. 

As a fairly long time DirecTV user, I currently have three SD DVRs. We purchased our first HDTV back in November, and I was _really_ looking forward to the HD DVR upgrade until I found out about this missing feature.

Under these circumstances I am very reluctant to get an HR2x unless I can skip the 2 year agreement. I like having the option to get out without penalty if the competition (who already has DLB for HD) gets their content up to par. In the mean time, I'll put up with the pillarbox just to keep DLB in the living room.

I am truly baffled. When has removing a popular feature from a product ever made customers happier? If they would at least tell us why, maybe I would feel differently about it.

BTW - great forums!

-OD


----------



## Steve

Oblong Desoto said:


> Well, this topic brought me here to post for the first time.
> 
> As a fairly long time DirecTV user, I currently have three SD DVRs. We purchased our first HDTV back in November, and I was _really_ looking forward to the HD DVR upgrade until I found out about this missing feature.
> 
> Under these circumstances I am very reluctant to get an HR2x unless I can skip the 2 year agreement. I like having the option to get out without penalty if the competition (who already has DLB for HD) gets their content up to par. In the mean time, I'll put up with the pillarbox just to keep DLB in the living room.
> 
> I am truly baffled. When has removing a popular feature from a product ever made customers happier? If they would at least tell us why, maybe I would feel differently about it.
> 
> BTW - great forums!
> 
> -OD


:welcome_s to the forums! /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Oblong Desoto said:


> Well, this topic brought me here to post for the first time.
> 
> As a fairly long time DirecTV user, I currently have three SD DVRs. We purchased our first HDTV back in November, and I was _really_ looking forward to the HD DVR upgrade until I found out about this missing feature.
> 
> Under these circumstances I am very reluctant to get an HR2x unless I can skip the 2 year agreement. I like having the option to get out without penalty if the competition (who already has DLB for HD) gets their content up to par. In the mean time, I'll put up with the pillarbox just to keep DLB in the living room.
> 
> I am truly baffled. When has removing a popular feature from a product ever made customers happier? If they would at least tell us why, maybe I would feel differently about it.
> 
> BTW - great forums!
> 
> -OD


:welcome_s Welcome to the forum.

I doubt you can get out of the commitment...but hey, take a shot.

I feel your pain. I sorely miss *DLB*.

I do feel you should give the HR2x a shot on the new HDTV. My 2cents.

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Welcome, Steven, and remember to always show deference to a Sith Lord.


----------



## tyrant

Call me another bandwagon jumper... but this topic also just got me to register.
I just upgraded from two SD DTV Tivos to HR21s... I actually came here to find out what I was doing wrong with the dual buffer feature...figuring I just didn't know how to use the remote yet...and was SHOCKED, SHOCKED I say, to learn that the feature is not there. 
Very, Very, Very disappointed.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Thanks for all the welcomes!



MicroBeta said:


> I do feel you should give the HR2x a shot on the new HDTV. My 2cents.


Yeah, maybe after the primaries and caucuses wrap up. DLB is super handy for watching the returns come in.

Then again, there may not be much need for a DVR after that unless the WGA situation gets resolved. :ramblinon

-OD


----------



## James Long

tyrant said:


> Call me another bandwagon jumper... but this topic also just got me to register.
> I just upgraded from two SD DTV Tivos to HR21s... I actually came here to find out what I was doing wrong with the dual buffer feature...figuring I just didn't know how to use the remote yet...and was SHOCKED, SHOCKED I say, to learn that the feature is not there.
> Very, Very, Very disappointed.


About a shocked you were to find out that the OTA tuner on your receiver was an add-on?


----------



## oenophile

This topic was one of the reasons I first started poking around here. (That and eSata.)


----------



## tyrant

James Long said:


> About a shocked you were to find out that the OTA tuner on your receiver was an add-on?


well, I'm cool without the OTA since I haven't used that nor really miss it anymore.

If I could get the audio sync and the dual-buffer thing corrected... I'd be a happy camper.


----------



## Surfguy

I spoke to my insider over at DTV and was told they will have DLB available on the self-aware AI-DVR robot model (codename: robotron) coming out in 2050...but not before then. 

Damn you, DTV! Damn you to DLB hell!


----------



## Green23

Oblong Desoto said:


> I am truly baffled. When has removing a popular feature from a product ever made customers happier? If they would at least tell us why, maybe I would feel differently about it.
> 
> -OD


Exactly!:goodjob:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Oblong Desoto said:


> I am truly baffled. When has removing a popular feature from a product ever made customers happier? If they would at least tell us why, maybe I would feel differently about it.


Welcome...

But to be accurate...

DLB was never on the DVR+ platform.
It was on the TiVo's... but not on the DVR+ platform.

So it was never there to be removed.


----------



## ToddinVA

Earl Bonovich said:


> Welcome...
> 
> But to be accurate...
> 
> DLB was never on the DVR+ platform.
> It was on the TiVo's... but not on the DVR+ platform.
> 
> So it was never there to be removed.


That's just semantics Earl. It was on the original DVR line from DirecTV, then it disappeared from it's successor. Therefore, it was removed.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ToddinVA said:


> That's just semantics Earl. It was on the original DVR line from DirecTV, then it disappeared from it's successor. Therefore, it was removed.


The HR20 is not a successor to the TiVo unit.


----------



## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is not a successor to the TiVo unit.


Really?

successor

Main Entry: suc·ces·sor 
Pronunciation: \sək-ˈse-sər\ 
Function: noun 
Etymology: Middle English successour, from Anglo-French, from Latin successor, from succedere 
Date: 14th century 
: one that follows; especially : one who succeeds to a throne, title, estate, or office


----------



## James Long

More of a replacement than a successor.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

New product line... not derived from the previous model.


----------



## ToddinVA

Apparently we now need a degree in English to figure this out... lol


----------



## Doug Brott

ToddinVA said:


> Apparently we now need a degree in English to figure this out... lol


Nah .. the last few posts have been one big ol'









It's all good.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Earl Bonovich said:


> New product line... not derived from the previous model.


That is true, Earl, but entirely beside the point. My LCD television was not derived from the previous CRT models, yet I expect it to perform all of the same functions as the prior models, with the added benefits of new technology.

Let me take a different approach to illustrate my view. Whether it says TiVo or DVR+ on the box, these are the official DVRs supplied to us by DirecTV for use with their service. Therefore, the functions performed by these devices can be construed as features of the DirecTV DVR service. As such, you can say that DirecTV no longer offers DLB as part of their DVR service.

So yes Earl, I am being accurate when I say that DirecTV has removed this feature from their product... that product being their DVR service. The hardware and software are merely components of the system. 

In relation to my own personal viewing habits, the new features enabled by the HR2x line of DVRs do not trump the negative impact of losing this one key feature. By simply adding that feature to the HR2x, DirecTV would have me as a guaranteed continuing customer and promoter of their service for the next 24 months and then some.

-OD


----------



## lman

Oblong Desoto said:


> That is true, Earl, but entirely beside the point. My LCD television was not derived from the previous CRT models, yet I expect it to perform all of the same functions as the prior models, with the added benefits of new technology.
> 
> Let me take a different approach to illustrate my view. Whether it says TiVo or DVR+ on the box, these are the official DVRs supplied to us by DirecTV for use with their service. Therefore, the functions performed by these devices can be construed as features of the DirecTV DVR service. As such, you can say that DirecTV no longer offers DLB as part of their DVR service.
> 
> So yes Earl, I am being accurate when I say that DirecTV has removed this feature from their product... that product being their DVR service. The hardware and software are merely components of the system.
> 
> In relation to my own personal viewing habits, the new features enabled by the HR2x line of DVRs do not trump the negative impact of losing this one key feature. By simply adding that feature to the HR2x, DirecTV would have me as a guaranteed continuing customer and promoter of their service for the next 24 months and then some.
> 
> -OD


All of these points have been raised numerous times over the last 1 1/2 years. This thread proves that DTV doesn't care what their customer feels is most important in a DVR. They have their own ideas what they want to push to their customers. They either don't monitor this website or as mentioned earlier they don't care what is the most wanted feature. Their objective is making money, not having happy customers. It's too bad because they could have both if they added DLB or at least explain why it can't be done.


----------



## Drew2k

lman said:


> All of these points have been raised numerous times over the last 1 1/2 years. This thread proves that DTV doesn't care what their customer feels is most important in a DVR.


But that's just not the case. You are assuming that DLB is universally accepted as the most important feature of a DVR, and for me it's not: My most important feature is RECORDING - it's the DVR's raison d'etre - and DLB is not.


----------



## ToddinVA

lman said:


> All of these points have been raised numerous times over the last 1 1/2 years. This thread proves that DTV doesn't care what their customer feels is most important in a DVR.


I do think that they are listening, which is good. But they just have their head buried in the sand on this one particular important issues for some unknown reason though.


----------



## JBernardK

lman said:


> All of these points have been raised numerous times over the last 1 1/2 years. This thread proves that DTV doesn't care what their customer feels is most important in a DVR. They have their own ideas what they want to push to their customers. They either don't monitor this website or as mentioned earlier they don't care what is the most wanted feature. Their objective is making money, not having happy customers. It's too bad because they could have both if they added DLB or at least explain why it can't be done.


Perhaps they do care but they unfortunately have a group desgning/programming this unit that is just not up to it. Witness the simple way they implemented the external SATA--one or the other but not both. Took the easy way to do it. Channels you recieve should be an easy fix but they can't seem to do it. It has taken well over a year and weekly software releases to try to fix this box and it still has major problems. They are not about to implement a new feature that could be difficult to program or introduce new bugs. Just my opinion on why they did not implement DLB. No other reason makes sense as so many of you have pointed out.


----------



## James Long

Oblong Desoto said:


> That is true, Earl, but entirely beside the point. My LCD television was not derived from the previous CRT models, yet I expect it to perform all of the same functions as the prior models, with the added benefits of new technology.


That is your expectation. But DirecTV didn't market these DVRs as having _all_ of the same functions and this new line of DVR has never had DLB. 18 months out it seems odd that people are still griping about it.

I learned to drive in cars from the late 1970's. Yes, the driver's ed cars were newer but that was only a couple hours a day for a couple of weeks. The real learning came in cars that were, on reflection, dangerously fast and responsive. When my mother got her first small car (not tiny, just not a 1970's car) I really missed the responsiveness. If you wanted to pass you would have to think about it ... not just floor it, hit 90 mph and get around in a few seconds. If you wanted to climb a hill you would have to get a running start ... or so it seemed. What I would consider a major FEATURE of prior vehicles - power - was missing.

So I had to adapt. Every driver did. Some who are more mechanically inclined adapted by keeping their muscle cars running for 20-30 years before they realized that they were too valuable to drive. Most adapted by learning to drive something less powerful but with many other new features. When I did my own 1979 to 1990 car upgrade the test drives were used to make sure that my new mini-muscle car would perform somewhere near where the old one did.

BASIC features are those that most expect on any item in a class. On a car I would expect that it would have cruise control and air conditioning along with power brakes and steering. An automatic transmission seems to still be an option (many prefer shifting themselves). Power windows, power door locks, power seats all seem to be options that are generally there. Cigarette lighters have become accessory power outlets (my current car has no ash trays). Life changes. You could take away ALL of those automatic and power features and still have a car. A basic car that I probably would not buy, but it would still be a car.

DLB seems to be being discussed as if it is a core feature that is required on a DVR or the product simply isn't a DVR. That simply isn't true. I still remember the time when DVRs didn't have dual ANYTHING.

If you were to ask people what a DVR does (outside this thread) it would be a long time before you get to DLB in the description ... if you got there at all. The ability to watch something while recording something else would probably be mind blowing to most people. Asking what a DVR is and hearing DLB would be like asking someone what a car does and hearing the list of features I offered above before being told it was a vehicle that transported people from one place to another. People may decide between cars based on the features (in dash GPS navigation is cool) but that isn't what makes it a car.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

James... It is not very odd 18 months after the debut of a product we weren't yet looking for that long-time DirecTiVo users would arrive here looking for answers. Using the word "griping" to try and make our dissatisfaction seem childish is insulting and completely unnecessary.

Borrowing your automotive example, the oil embargo of 1973 mandated the increase of fuel mileage at the expense of power. If industry engineers could have found a way to give us both efficiency and power, they certainly would have done it. The consumer demand for power was still there, but circumstances beyond the control of the auto makers prevented fulfilling that demand.

What circumstances are preventing DirecTV from offering DLB on this platform? As Earl has stated and others have repeated, it is not a limitation of either hardware or software. People want it, so why not provide it? What is the downside?

One could assume that there is still a large contingent of DirecTiVo users out there like myself who have recently purchased (or soon will purchase) their first HD television set, and who have become accustomed to using DLB over several years. I predict that the number of people lamenting the unavailability of DBL on the new hardware will only grow. Heck... think of the number of Dish users DirecTV may have the opportunity to lure as that company's fortunes diminish. Do you think they might like to continue having DLB as a feature? Again - what is the downside? It sure would be nice to know!

-OD


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Oblong Desoto said:


> James... It is not very odd 18 months after the debut of a product we weren't yet looking for that long-time DirecTiVo users would arrive here looking for answers. Using the word "griping" to try and make our dissatisfaction seem childish is insulting and completely unnecessary.


Technically speaking... 26 months... as DLB was not on the R15 (the first of the DVR+ platform). either.

To those that think DirecTV is not listening....
They do listen... and they have seen this thread, they have seen the letters people have written, ect.

But at the end of the day... they have their reasons for not having it in the system... Plain and simple.

Sorry that people made the assumption that it was going to have every feature that TiVo had... but it doesn't

Oh... and going back to your TV example...

Should everyone assume that their TV has a cable-ready tuner in it?
I know the TV I purchased... didn't come with ANY tuners... it was just a display device, that needed an external box.

Or that it will have PiP?
Given that a growing number of TV are not comming with PiP features.

DLB is not a CORE functionality of a DVR... 
It is a nice feature to have for those that want to watch two things at once.
But it is not a CORE function of a DVR.

And the DVR+ platform does not have DLB.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Earl Bonovich said:


> DLB is not a CORE functionality of a DVR...
> It is a nice feature to have for those that want to watch two things at once.
> But it is not a CORE function of a DVR.


Maybe it was naive of me to assume DLB was at least considered to be a key feature, if not a core function. The fact that DLB appears in so many modern DVRs has obviously colored my expectations. So be it.
My only intention in joining this forum was to add another vote to the poll. Maybe if enough people do, DirecTV will change their minds about this feature. I also realize many people will be happy without it. To those, I say cheers!

Now, if only my car radio had a live buffer... 

-OD


----------



## JBernardK

Oblong Desoto said:


> Now, if only my car radio had a live buffer...
> 
> -OD


My XM radio in the car has one.


----------



## Lord Vader

And your point is...?


----------



## jheda

Its clear that people for the last 26 months have been rolling out of their sdtivos, hr10-250s etc as they buy flats screen hdtvs and rolling in to hr2x's .....that is why we get posts like oblongs daily.... not unsimiliar to mine 18 months ago....

Despite 12 years of higher education, i made the same quantum leap so many have. Sorry, James, with the greatest of respect, i believe its a rational conclusion many of us made that DLB would be included in the DVR platform. It was a feature that this thread proves was widely used, and expecting it to be a feature is not the same thought process as expecting every feature, IMHO. Ironically earl, i bought the sony model without PIP because with DLB i didnt find PIP neccessary.

Having said that, DTV* clearly does listen*... Obviously anyone that thinks DirecTV is not listening needs to see all the other changes DTV has made in response to us, the people of this forum. It is truly an amazing relationship that EVERYONE here should at least acknowledge if not greatly appreciate. The clearest evidence is their work on fixing, adding and fine tuning SLB, which when implemented will satisfy many (like me) DLB fanatics. Hell it might even make the great of all DLB lovers QUE, ok    

To conclude, i see myself in all the new posters, and empathize with them accordingly, and hope they end at the point of satisfaction I have reached now.


----------



## jheda

Oh and most importantly,Oblong WELCOME!!! Those heavyweights responding to your frustration work hard and make this forum what it is; we dont always agree but they repect all opinions.....so please enjoy all the tips and tricks etc., and consider joining the club, best $15 you'll ever spend!!!![


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl Bonovich said:


> To those that think DirecTV is not listening....
> They do listen... and they have seen this thread, they have seen the letters people have written, ect.


Agree. We have 30 SS now.



Earl Bonovich said:


> But at the end of the day... they have their reasons for not having it in the system... Plain and simple.


Well if they would just tell us all why, maybe we would all shut up about it.  :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Well if they would just tell us all why, maybe we would all shut up about it.  :lol:


Right.....


----------



## James Long

Oblong Desoto said:


> Borrowing your automotive example, the oil embargo of 1973 mandated the increase of fuel mileage at the expense of power. If industry engineers could have found a way to give us both efficiency and power, they certainly would have done it. The consumer demand for power was still there, but circumstances beyond the control of the auto makers prevented fulfilling that demand.


Guess what happened? People told the automakers that they WERE willing to pay for power. The power has returned (to a certain extent). Government mandates are causing automotive companies to produce high gas mileage vehicles to offset the vehicles people want and buy. And (on a personal note) my current car (a mini-van) gets the same MPG as my 1976 and 1979 cars did (the 1979 was a Volare). The industry worked it out.

And no, I don't believe that a government mandate should force DLB on all DVRs. 

BTW: I brought up the car example because even though there are features that are VERY common ... when missing it doesn't make the car any less of a car. A car with two wheels isn't a car, but a car without power steering or air conditioning? It is still a car.

A DVR without DLB is still a DVR, right?



Earl Bonovich said:


> theratpatrol said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well if they would just tell us all why, maybe we would all shut up about it.  :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Right.....
Click to expand...

I agree. No reason is good enough for those who have taken up the cause.


----------



## Que

DLB is not just on Tivo. It's on all of them, just not DirecTV line. People say it's not like "Tivo" but there not the only one with DLB. Here is a list that we have so far.

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network – ViP622
Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## sbelmont

I didn't think that I would miss the dual tuners as much as I do. 4 days now with an HR21-700 and not being able to flip between the tuners is a terrible design flaw. The work around is a shabby attempt and not very quick. It should be a one button press like on a Tivo. Same with going from a recorded program to watching it live. Sould be a one button switch. I don't think I will ever get used to it.


----------



## Drew2k

sbelmont said:


> Same with going from a recorded program to watching it live. Sould be a one button switch. I don't think I will ever get used to it.


While watching a recorded program, you can hit EXIT to return to LIVE TV . Then you can hit PREV to return to the program you were just watching from your playlist.


----------



## christo76

Drew2k said:


> While watching a recorded program, you can hit EXIT to return to LIVE TV . Then you can hit PREV to return to the program you were just watching from your playlist.


Or just hit PREV alone. You don't need to hit EXIT, Prev willdo the same thing from list playback.


----------



## havlicek

I have seen postings of DVRs that have the DLB. I would like to see a list of those (besides dtv's versions) that do not. This may have already been posted (i have not gone thru this entire thread).

Besides dtv's, are there other DVRs that have two tuners that do not offer DLB?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

havlicek said:


> Besides dtv's, are there other DVRs that have two tuners that do not offer DLB?


AT&T's U-Verse DVR


----------



## papa_azteca

sbelmont said:


> I didn't think that I would miss the dual tuners as much as I do. 4 days now with an HR21-700 and not being able to flip between the tuners is a terrible design flaw. The work around is a shabby attempt and not very quick. It should be a one button press like on a Tivo. Same with going from a recorded program to watching it live. Sould be a one button switch. I don't think I will ever get used to it.


Why is something that was omitted a design flaw? There has to be a reason why DIRECTV decided that this was not a priorty issue when designing the DVR+ platform. I know many TIVO converts that either a) didn't care about it or b) didn't know about it.

But it has been 26 months. DIRECTV will have 5 receivers with the DVR+ platform and still no DLB (R15, R16, HR20, HR21 and HR21 PRO). I think that the question if DIRECTV will implement DLB soon has been answered. Why? That is yet to be determined and many go down as "unknown" to the public.


----------



## papa_azteca

Do I miss DLB? There are times, yes. Is it a killer for me and my family? No. And that is easily overcome when I have to clean up my recordings on my DVRs. I'm done within 10 minutes in deleting shows off my R15 and HRs. I have to plan an afternoon to clean up my recordings on my HR10-250. Go in the Now Playing List and double-click on every episode individually to erase it. We couldn't TIVO make this task easier?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

papa_azteca said:


> But is has been 26 months. DIRECTV will have 3 receivers with the DVR+ platform and still no DLB (HR20, HR21 and HR21 PRO). And a good possibility that the new standard DVR+ R1? will not have DLB on it either. I think that the question if DIRECTV will implement DLB soon has been answered. Why? That is yet to be determined and many go down as "unknown" to the public.


4 receivers: R15 also


----------



## papa_azteca

Earl Bonovich said:


> 4 receivers: R15 also


Don't forget the R16, although it has not been released, you yourself stated that it would not have DLB. I seem to trust what you say, unless you have some insider dirt.:grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

papa_azteca said:


> Don't forget the R16, although it has not been released, you yourself stated that it would not have DLB. I seem to trust what you say, unless you have some insider dirt.:grin:


I have stated that I expect it not to have R16.
There is no official information to post about the non-released R16


----------



## sbelmont

papa_azteca said:


> Why is something that was omitted a design flaw?


I agree. I shouldn't have used the words design flaw. It is a feature that was not included in the design.


----------



## buggs1a

What is SLB and also Comcast does not have dual buffers. We just got their HDTV service 2 weeks ago or less and it does not have buffers like Tivo with dual.


----------



## Jhon69

buggs1a said:


> What is SLB and also Comcast does not have dual buffers. We just got their HDTV service 2 weeks ago or less and it does not have buffers like Tivo with dual.


Single Live Buffer.


----------



## Doug Brott

Jhon69 said:


> Single Live Buffer.


Yes, and there have been issues with having a properly working Single Live Buffer (SLB). The SLB is getting much better and with 0x1EA I believe that the DLB workaround is very usable.


----------



## jheda

Once properly implemented SLB will allow u to record just one show and hold the pause of the live one, thus your ability to switch between the two shows as a DLB workaround.


----------



## jheda

_The HR2x has so many other features outside of being a recorder, James, I dont know whether that statement makes sense anymore.

As far as whenever DTV discloses their reason publicly, I do believe it will quell many. A reason will never be good enough for everyone, but no reason satisfies no one. I personally have moved on, and SLB satisfies my needs. Im sure at the right time DTV will speak to this subject.

_


James Long said:


> A DVR without DLB is still a DVR, right?
> 
> I agree. No reason is good enough for those who have taken up the cause.


----------



## raott

jheda said:


> Once properly implemented SLB will allow u to record just one show and hold the pause of the live one, thus your ability to switch between the two shows as a DLB workaround.


With the new SLB can I tune to a show, hit "R" to start recording, then tune to a second show and go back and forth without losing the buffers.

I'm asking because I have not been able to keep up with the CEs lately however I did hear of the improved SLB. With my current software version I still lose the buffer by doing the above steps. The only way I can keep the buffer is my then going to the playlist and selecting the recording show - but the problem with that, is that the recorded show pauses when I flip to the non-recording show - I don't want it to pause.


----------



## JBernardK

jheda said:


> Once properly implemented SLB will allow u to record just one show and hold the pause of the live one, thus your ability to switch between the two shows as a DLB workaround.


There's a clue right there to why they don't have DLB--they don't know how to do it. If they could not properly implement a SLB in 18 months, how do you expect them to be able to implement DLB?


----------



## Steve

jheda said:


> Once properly implemented SLB will allow u to record just one show and hold the pause of the live one, thus your ability to switch between the two shows as a DLB workaround.


SLB (with pause) is properly implemented in the current NR, AFAIK. Am I missing something? /steve


----------



## jheda

No you arent missing anything, i just wasnt sure if everyone is on new current. Besides only Patriot fans are missing something...:lol:


Steve said:


> SLB (with pause) is properly implemented in the current NR, AFAIK. Am I missing something? /steve


----------



## Lord Vader

JBernardK said:


> There's a clue right there to why they don't have DLB--they don't know how to do it. If they could not properly implement a SLB in 18 months, how do you expect them to be able to implement DLB?


That is incorrect. As Earl has repeatedly explained, DirecTV has the technical capability of implementing DLB. They simply _*choose*_ not to at this point in time.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> That is incorrect. As Earl has repeatedly explained, DirecTV has the technical capability of implementing DLB. They simply _*choose*_ not to at this point in time.


Exactly


----------



## JBernardK

Lord Vader said:


> That is incorrect. As Earl has repeatedly explained, DirecTV has the technical capability of implementing DLB. They simply _*choose*_ not to at this point in time.


Of course they tell Earl that they have the technical capability. Wouldn't you if you were them? But look at what they have been unable to do so far in a timely manner. And look at what has been screwed up.


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> No you arent missing anything, i just wasnt sure if everyone is on new current. Besides only Patriot fans are missing something...:lol:


I'm not sure that 0x1BE works correctly in all cases .. 0x1EA seems to do a much better job and the workaround is more consistent with expectations of real DLB ..


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> Of course they tell Earl that they have the technical capability. Wouldn't you if you were them? But look at what they have been unable to do so far in a timely manner. And look at what has been screwed up.


Earl is rarely led astray .. and Earl frequently passes along what he knows .. The key, however, is being able to correctly hear what Earl has said.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> Of course they tell Earl that they have the technical capability. Wouldn't you if you were them? But look at what they have been unable to do so far in a timely manner. And look at what has been screwed up.


So explain to me then...

Was is the technical limitational difference between, recording two things at once... And two live buffers?

Both take the live feed from two tuners, and stores them to the drive.

So what is the technical limitation, that would forbid DLB to happen?

All that is missing, is the unit doing it when it is not recording on the 2nd tuner... and an ability to flip back between the two... (Which you can do now if you playback the two live recordings, and hit PREV).

So... please... in your point of view... what is the technical limiation.


----------



## lman

Earl Bonovich said:


> So explain to me then...
> 
> Was is the technical limitational difference between, recording two things at once... And two live buffers?
> 
> Both take the live feed from two tuners, and stores them to the drive.
> 
> So what is the technical limitation, that would forbid DLB to happen?
> 
> All that is missing, is the unit doing it when it is not recording on the 2nd tuner... and an ability to flip back between the two... (Which you can do now if you playback the two live recordings, and hit PREV).
> 
> So... please... in your point of view... what is the technical limiation.


Sounds good to me. There must be some limitation because it's not getting done and we want it.


----------



## ToddinVA

lman said:


> Sounds good to me. There must be some limitation because it's not getting done and we want it.


Or DirecTV doesn't understand how many of their users use their DVRs and someone in management just decided that DLB wasn't a priority. It was an obvious poor decision and we, the customer, get the shaft.

:lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

lman said:


> Sounds good to me. There must be some limitation because it's not getting done and we want it.


The limitation is simply, DirecTV decided that they don't want DLB in their DVR..



ToddinVA said:


> Or DirecTV doesn't understand how many of their users use their DVRs and someone in management just decided that DLB wasn't a priority. It was an obvious poor decision and we, the customer, get the shaft.
> 
> :lol:


Or some people are over estimating how important DLB is to the entire population of DVR users.


----------



## The Merg

Earl Bonovich said:


> To those that think DirecTV is not listening....
> They do listen... and they have seen this thread, they have seen the letters people have written, ect.
> 
> But at the end of the day... they have their reasons for not having it in the system... Plain and simple.


If they have their reasons, why can't we get an official quote from DirecTV then about this? As much as I've read, there have been assumptions as to why it is not there, but no official response except for it's not there.

I personally think that not having DLB's is a step backwards in the way DVR's work and would love to see it instituted in the R15 and HR20/21. However, I am willing to listen to the view of those on the other side of the debate if they could give me their reason for not instituting it.

- Merg


----------



## The Merg

Drew2k said:


> While watching a recorded program, you can hit EXIT to return to LIVE TV . Then you can hit PREV to return to the program you were just watching from your playlist.


Does that still work on the HR20/21? That functionality is now broken on the R15? Hitting PREV after returning to Live TV from a recording will take you to Channel 201 on the R15.

- Merg


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The Merg said:


> If they have their reasons, why can't we get an official quote from DirecTV then about this? As much as I've read, there have been assumptions as to why it is not there, but no official response except for it's not there.


What official quote are you looking for?

The DVR+ line has NEVER included DLB...
It has NEVER been stated as a feature for the unit.

Are you looking for an official press release, to confirm that the feature is not there?

As official as it is going to get:
DirecTV has chosen not to add that feature to their DVR+ platform

That is it... that is the reason...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The Merg said:


> Does that still work on the HR20/21? That functionality is now broken on the R15? Hitting PREV after returning to Live TV from a recording will take you to Channel 201 on the R15.
> 
> - Merg


Still works on my R15


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> The limitation is simply, DirecTV decided that they don't want DLB in their DVR..
> 
> Or some people are over estimating how important DLB is to the entire population of DVR users.


What is this conclusion based upon? Did DirecTV poll every DVR user to arrive at this conclusion? From the lists that have been posted of competitor DVR capabilities, it seems that almost all of them include DLB as a feature. Is that over estimation or rather a mandate? Someone's focus groups are way off, assuming that those involved actually did the research.

For DirecTV, who touts the most optional sports packages, to not include a feature (DLB) that enhances said programming is puzzling. The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or some people are over estimating how important DLB is to the entire population of DVR users.


And you base that on what?

I see all the time the praise rained on D* because they listen to the members of this site and have made changes to the HR20 based on that feedback, yet, with this one lack of feature, all of a sudden this site's feedback is not representative of the entire population. If they know what the entire population wants, why bother having any backdoor feedback from this site.

I'll always refer to the decision making process that brought you the "two-push guide" and ticks without the ability to skip to them - is the same one that decided no DLB.

I seriously question the effort put forth upfront in understanding customer CTQs and whether any design for the customer analysis was done.


----------



## Steve

Dr. Booda said:


> For DirecTV, who touts the most optional sports packages, to not include a feature (DLB) that enhances said programming is puzzling. The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time.


I personally have adjusted to life after DLBs, so this is not a hot button issue for me. That being said, you make excellent points, IMO. Well-said. /steve


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or some people are over estimating how important DLB is to the entire population of DVR users.


Hey, that's _my _line.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> And you base that on what?
> 
> I see all the time the praise rained on D* because they listen to the members of this site and have made changes to the HR20 based on that feedback, yet, with this one lack of feature, all of a sudden this site's feedback is not representative of the entire population. If they know what the entire population wants, why bother having any backdoor feedback from this site.
> 
> I'll always refer to the decision making process that brought you the "two-push guide" and ticks without the ability to skip to them - is the same one that decided no DLB.
> 
> I seriously question the effort put forth upfront in understanding customer CTQs and whether any design for the customer analysis was done.


First of all... this site has NEVER been touted as a feedback point for the entire population.

People here make suggestions, and DirecTV discusses them and then decides what to implement, change, ect.... Take a look at the wish list.... there is a lot more on the list that has NOT been done, then has been.

DBSTalk is just one of their feedback points... It is just a small fraction of the big picture.

While they do listen to the feedback... anyone that has been around here a while, knows they don't act on ALL the feedback/comments/wants that have been listed...

As to my basis on my statement: "overestimating the importance of DLB"
One basisless argument (DLB is used by the majority of DLB users) deserves the counter basisless argument.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> First of all... this site has NEVER been touted as a feedback point for the entire population.


That was my entire point. It's NOT representative of the entire population - yet a constant theme heard here is how much D* listens to the members of this site.

So the argument that, with this one feature, the feedback here doesn't matter because its not representative, flies in the face of the constant praise.

DLB and the 50SL limit are two glaring areas where the HR2x series is substandard to Dish/Comcast/Tivo.

And I'll reiterate, the same folks who are choosing not to do DLB, are the same folks who brought you the two push guide, I have little faith in the amount of upfront design for the customer work that was done.


----------



## Steve

raott said:


> That was my entire point. It's NOT representative of the entire population - yet a constant theme heard here is how much D* listens to the members of this site.


They do listen to the members of this site, but selectively. As Earl points out, there are twice as many unfulfilled requests on the Wish List as have been implemented, but the fact remains that 40+ requests have made it into the s/w, and that's pretty darned good, IMHO. Granted some of them may have made it in without the Wish List, but it would be wrong to generalize that feedback from this site has no bearing on what gets done. /steve


----------



## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> So explain to me then...
> 
> Was is the technical limitational difference between, recording two things at once... And two live buffers?
> 
> Both take the live feed from two tuners, and stores them to the drive.
> 
> So what is the technical limitation, that would forbid DLB to happen?
> 
> All that is missing, is the unit doing it when it is not recording on the 2nd tuner... and an ability to flip back between the two... (Which you can do now if you playback the two live recordings, and hit PREV).
> 
> So... please... in your point of view... what is the technical limiation.


I'm not suggesting there is a technical limitation. My guess is that someone high in management was frustrated that the programmers could not fix very simple things and decreed that DLB not be implemented until they fixed advertised features. There is no technical limitation on implementing "channels I receive", skip to tick, series limit, and so forth. These things should be straight forward if the architecture and structure of the software was sound. But the fact they had to hurry it market and try to patch the software every week says something.

Thing about it--it would be just plain stupid to not implement a feature if it was that easy to do and management had confidence in the design team.

On the other hand, those of us that have worked in large corporations know that upper management often makes decisons that are plain wrong and then can't back down on them for rear of losing face.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> First of all... this site has NEVER been touted as a feedback point for the entire population.
> 
> People here make suggestions, and DirecTV discusses them and then decides what to implement, change, ect.... Take a look at the wish list.... there is a lot more on the list that has NOT been done, then has been.
> 
> DBSTalk is just one of their feedback points... It is just a small fraction of the big picture.
> 
> While they do listen to the feedback... anyone that has been around here a while, knows they don't act on ALL the feedback/comments/wants that have been listed...
> 
> As to my basis on my statement: "overestimating the importance of DLB"
> One basisless argument (DLB is used by the majority of DLB users) deserves the counter basisless argument.


Earl - Could you elaborate on some of those other feedback points? I'm just curious on where they solicite feedback.


----------



## Lord Vader

JBernardK said:


> My guess is that someone high in management was frustrated that the programmers could not fix very simple things and decreed that DLB not be implemented until they fixed advertised features.


Your guess would be wrong. It's simply that DirecTV _*chooses*_ not to implement DLB. They could if they wanted to; they don't want to.


----------



## James Long

Earl Bonovich said:


> One basisless argument (DLB is used by the majority of DLB users) deserves the counter basisless argument.


It could be said that toilet paper is used by the majority (actually 100%) of toilet paper users ... since being a toilet paper user is what makes them a toilet paper user. The baseless argument is a pointless statement.

What matters is if toilet paper is used by the majority of toilet users _where paper is present_. In this country most people _EXPECT_ their toilets to be supplied with paper and generally get upset when they don't have paper available. Can the same be said about DLB? A majority (and not just 50.0000001%)?

I believe the statement that was intended was that "a majority of DVR users with DLB present actually use that feature", or not. In this country I believe we can say that the majority of toilet users with paper present would use that feature. Whether or not a majority of DVR users would use DLB when present, and how often, is a good question.

Personally, I don't believe DLB has reached the level of importance as toilet paper. 

(Sorry for the potty humor.)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> And I'll reiterate, the same folks who are choosing not to do DLB, are the same folks who brought you the two push guide, I have little faith in the amount of upfront design for the customer work that was done.


For the record...

Two push guide was in place for nearly 2+ years before the HR20 even came onto the sceen.... several million receivers/users out there, didn't seem to have major issues with the 2 step guide.

So something was "fine" the way it was.


----------



## tiger2005

James Long said:


> It could be said that toilet paper is used by the majority (actually 100%) of toilet paper users ... since being a toilet paper user is what makes them a toilet paper user. The baseless argument is a pointless statement.
> 
> What matters is if toilet paper is used by the majority of toilet users _where paper is present_. In this country most people _EXPECT_ their toilets to be supplied with paper and generally get upset when they don't have paper available. Can the same be said about DLB? A majority (and not just 50.0000001%)?
> 
> I believe the statement that was intended was that "a majority of DVR users with DLB present actually use that feature", or not. In this country I believe we can say that the majority of toilet users with paper present would use that feature. Whether or not a majority of DVR users would use DLB when present, and how often, is a good question.
> 
> Personally, I don't believe DLB has reached the level of importance as toilet paper.
> 
> (Sorry for the potty humor.)


Total television viewership across this country hasn't reached the same level of importance as toilet paper, so I'm not sure what your point is?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Earl - Could you elaborate on some of those other feedback points? I'm just curious on where they solicite feedback.


Lets see...

The WishList for one.... Even though there is more on it not completed... then that were completed.... A lot of the features added to the system, and changes are directly from that list.

----

Polls/Discussion threads over the last 18 months...
Specifically asking for feedback on things... such as the White GUI...

What you see today, is not exactly what we got the first time.

Even the new menu structure, things changed between the first CE and the last CE... to tweek some of it's features and functionality.

----

You know that thread that discussed what people liked about TiVo so much... a lot of the discussion drove some of the new menu structure discussions.

----


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Total television viewership across this country hasn't reached the same level of importance as toilet paper, so I'm not sure what your point is?


His point is...

That people can make some claims (on either side of an argument), without hard statiscial evidence.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> For the record...
> 
> Two push guide was in place for nearly 2+ years before the HR20 even came onto the sceen.... several million receivers/users out there, didn't seem to have major issues with the 2 step guide.
> 
> So something was "fine" the way it was.


The two push guide was only on the R15 (for one year prior to the intro of the HR20 IIRC), it was an awful idea, and there were many, many complaints about it here and on other forums.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> For the record...
> 
> Two push guide was in place for nearly 2+ years before the HR20 even came onto the sceen.... several million receivers/users out there, didn't seem to have major issues with the 2 step guide.
> 
> So something was "fine" the way it was.


If everything was 'fine' the way it was, then why did they capitulate and add one-press guide as an option? You don't put time and costs into developing an alternative if everything is 'fine'.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> There is no technical limitation on implementing "channels I receive", skip to tick, series limit, and so forth.


Actually there are technical limitations on implementing "channels I receive"
Hence why it is not completely enabled right now.

Skip to Tick exists already, so yes... there is no limiation there.

Series Limit, that is another that is a decision of DirecTV to set it to 50.



JBernardK said:


> Thing about it--it would be just plain stupid to not implement a feature if it was that easy to do and management had confidence in the design team.


Management at DirecTV has complete confidence in their design/development team.

Bottom line, it is their DVR... and THEY have chosen not to have THAT feature in THEIR DVR....

If the portion of their customer base that must have DLB to enjoy their TV viewing... leaves.... then that is the consequence for their choices.

But looking at the numbers.... DLB must not be "that" big of a deal, as the numbers are only going UP and rapidly (As compared to historical comparisons)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> If everything was 'fine' the way it was, then why did they capitulate and add one-press guide as an option? You don't put time and costs into developing an alternative if everything is 'fine'.


Because of the FEEDBACK, that a very vocal customer basis pitched out there...

Notice the DEFAULT is still GUIDE Filter first, then Guide.
They made an optional toggle.

Which honestly, is pretty straight forward to do...

So ya... little things, make big differences.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> The two push guide was only on the R15 (for one year prior to the intro of the HR20 IIRC), it was an awful idea, and there were many, many complaints about it here and on other forums.


It was also on the H20, D10, D11 as well for at least a year or more before the R15
Where were the compaits in volume for those boxes? Which are in an installation base of excess of 10 million units.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> Lets see...
> 
> The WishList for one.... Even though there is more on it not completed... then that were completed.... A lot of the features added to the system, and changes are directly from that list.
> 
> ----
> 
> Polls/Discussion threads over the last 18 months...
> Specifically asking for feedback on things... such as the White GUI...
> 
> What you see today, is not exactly what we got the first time.
> 
> Even the new menu structure, things changed between the first CE and the last CE... to tweek some of it's features and functionality.
> 
> ----
> 
> You know that thread that discussed what people liked about TiVo so much... a lot of the discussion drove some of the new menu structure discussions.
> 
> ----


Earl - I don't think I was clear in my first post. You mentioned that DirecTV had other feedback points besides this website. I was just curious as to what other feedback points they use besides this website. If you could elaborate on that I'd like to know. Thanks!


----------



## James Long

I was trying to point out the absurdity of the statement:
"A majority of DLB users use DLB."

It's like saying a majority of Earl Bonovich's are named Earl Bonovich. 

And, on a second point, I was trying to modify the statement to something that actually could be argued or discussed ... whether or not a majority of people who actually have DLB available would ever use that feature. That is a good measure of the importance of the feature.

I, for one, have DLB and have chosen not to use it. I would like my DVR to buffer "live" while I'm watching previously recorded programs (instead of starting the live buffer when the playback ends) but that is a different issue.

Well over 90% of what I watch is recorded. Some of it I watch in progress (starting late and skipping commercials). Most I watch another day. Some of it I watch weeks or months later. I barely use a live buffer (10% or less of my viewing). I'm not using DLB.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Earl - I don't think I was clear in my first post. You mentioned that DirecTV had other feedback points besides this website. I was just curious as to what other feedback points they use besides this website. If you could elaborate on that I'd like to know. Thanks!


There are at least three other forum boards, that they do monitor on a fairly regular basis.

They conduct User Test Groups.
They also hire research firms to do Q/A and analysis.
They also have entire teams/departments dedicated to UI / Functionality design.

They also have their firms they work with in other countries that have done the same time of analysis/research of their customer basis as well.

They also have the calls from their CSR tiers
They also have the email and communication that people send to them.

They also pay attention to analysis by other trade magazines and sources (such as CNet and Home Theater) which spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the "next thing" is.

They also have their own employees, that use the systems in their homes as well as in their jobs.... Executives to first line CSRs.... they all have the ability to provide feedback.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> It was also on the H20, D10, D11 as well for at least a year or more before the R15
> Where were the compaits in volume for those boxes? Which are in an installation base of excess of 10 million units.


You know as well as I do that this site did not really get going until the R15 was introduced and R15 discussion was no longer welcome at TCF.

When the R15 was introduced and the bulk of the discussion came here and this was the central place to voice opinions - the loud and clear message was that two push guide had to go - and it did.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> You know as well as I do that this site did not really get going until the R15 was introduced and R15 discussion was no longer welcome at TCF.
> 
> When the R15 was introduced and the bulk of the discussion came here and this was the central place to voice opinions - the loud and clear message was that two push guide had to go - and it did.


Yes... this particular site.

However, the sister site to this: AVSForum was still very popular...
And TCF was another...
Plus DBSForums, which still covered a lot of things DirecTV
There were several other forums sites before DBSTalk, that covered DirecTV...

You could argue then, based on your assertion...
That vocal issue with that feature... didn't happen, until the TiVo people who were used to one way.... were forced to do it a different way...

And they didn't like that change... or just couldn't get used to it...
Kinda similar to this entire DLB discussion....

If DLB never existed on the TiVo platform... would we have a thread that is almost 3000 posts long?

And to factually correct.... the GUIDE 2 button press is still there... it is the default setting.
You simply now have a choice to toggle it to how YOU want it to be...


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually there are technical limitations on implementing "channels I receive"
> Hence why it is not completely enabled right now.
> 
> Skip to Tick exists already, so yes... there is no limiation there.
> 
> Series Limit, that is another that is a decision of DirecTV to set it to 50.
> 
> Management at DirecTV has complete confidence in their design/development team.
> 
> Bottom line, it is their DVR... and THEY have chosen not to have THAT feature in THEIR DVR....
> 
> If the portion of their customer base that must have DLB to enjoy their TV viewing... leaves.... then that is the consequence for their choices.
> 
> But looking at the numbers.... DLB must not be "that" big of a deal, as the numbers are only going UP and rapidly (As compared to historical comparisons)


Earl - I agree that they're subscriptions are going up and will only continue to do so, but I think that has more to do with DirecTV's HD offering at the moment. Once other service providers begin offering the same amount of HD channels, I'd be more inclined to think DLB could be a larger issue. I know that FiOS is an option in my area and I'm strongly considering making the switch once they come online with their additional HD.

So yes, at this point HD trumps DLB, but at some point DirecTV will need to differentiate itself from those other providers as HD becomes more and more of a standard feature. Offering fewer features on their hardware than the competition is probably not the way they should be going about doing that.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> There are at least three other forum boards, that they do monitor on a fairly regular basis.
> 
> They conduct User Test Groups.
> They also hire research firms to do Q/A and analysis.
> They also have entire teams/departments dedicated to UI / Functionality design.
> 
> They also have their firms they work with in other countries that have done the same time of analysis/research of their customer basis as well.
> 
> They also have the calls from their CSR tiers
> They also have the email and communication that people send to them.
> 
> They also pay attention to analysis by other trade magazines and sources (such as CNet and Home Theater) which spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the "next thing" is.
> 
> They also have their own employees, that use the systems in their homes as well as in their jobs.... Executives to first line CSRs.... they all have the ability to provide feedback.


Thanks for the information.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> If DLB never existed on the TiVo platform... would we have a thread that is almost 3000 posts long?


Two points:

1) No, this wouldn't even be an issue. But the point is that TiVo DID offer it and its a feature a number of people on this site want back based on the length of this thread and the numbers in the poll.
2) It wasn't just TiVo's platform. It was ALSO DirecTV's platform for many, many years. DirecTV's name was on the box as well as TiVo's and that was their choice to use TiVo for those services. Perhaps that was a poor decision by DirecTV at the time, but that was their choice. However, I would argue that the worst decision was the second decision that was made when creating their DVR line to not copy the TiVo feature list, the unpatented features, and then enhance those features and add functionality from there.


----------



## jheda

+1 Steve.

Great posts the last couple of days here, from both sides, exactly what the thread should be for. Earl, great patience on your part respoonding thouroughly on issues you have grinded for many months.....



Steve said:


> I personally have adjusted to life after DLBs, so this is not a hot button issue for me. That being said, you make excellent points, IMO. Well-said. /steve


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Booda 
For DirecTV, who touts the most optional sports packages, to not include a feature (DLB) that enhances said programming is puzzling. The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time.


----------



## tiger2005

Dr. Booda said:


> For DirecTV, who touts the most optional sports packages, to not include a feature (DLB) that enhances said programming is puzzling. The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time.


I hope you don't mind, but this is such a great post that I've added it as my new signature. Great post!


----------



## Dr. Booda

Steve said:


> I personally have adjusted to life after DLBs, so this is not a hot button issue for me. That being said, you make excellent points, IMO. Well-said. /steve


Thanks Steve. I have also tried to adapt over the last 15 months, but I still miss DLB on a daily basis. It just matters how the DVR is used; some enjoy recording events and watching them later while others like to time shift live TV.

My wife is so frustrated over this issue and others that, although we have had DirecTV for over 10 years, there will come a time when we look for other options. In her mind, that time is when the NFLST monopoly ends and competitor HD offerings match those available now. Price isn't a deciding factor; ease of hardware use, reliability, and programming are.


----------



## Dr. Booda

tiger2005 said:


> I hope you don't mind, but this is such a great post that I've added it as my new signature. Great post!


No worries; just send in that royalty check each time you post in the future.


----------



## tiger2005

Dr. Booda said:


> No worries; just send in that royalty check each time you post in the future.


The checks are in the mail.


----------



## Dr. Booda

tiger2005 said:


> Two points:
> 
> 1) No, this wouldn't even be an issue. But the point is that TiVo DID offer it and its a feature a number of people on this site want back based on the length of this thread and the numbers in the poll.
> 2) It wasn't just TiVo's platform. It was ALSO DirecTV's platform for many, many years. DirecTV's name was on the box as well as TiVo's and that was their choice to use TiVo for those services. Perhaps that was a poor decision by DirecTV at the time, but that was their choice. However, I would argue that the worst decision was the second decision that was made when creating their DVR line to not copy the TiVo feature list, the unpatented features, and then enhance those features and add functionality from there.


I agree completely. Why not start with the HR10 as a baseline and build it up from there? Does "New and Improved" actually work anymore in Marketing? Was this an emotion based decision generated by the state of business affairs at the time with TiVo, or possibly a choice to minimize future perceived litigation risk?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Since there is no patent or legal restriction to having DLB.

There is no risk of perceived litigation risk.

It is simply a decision that they made, for the direction and plans for their DVR.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Since there is no patent or legal restriction to having DLB.
> 
> There is no risk of perceived litigation risk.
> 
> It is simply a decision that they made, for the direction and plans for their DVR.


Yes that makes sense, but I was referring to the "start with a clean slate" mentality so that they could say that they weren't copycatting the HR10. I have dealt with upper management that is overly paranoid of such things no matter how ridiculously innocent the change.


----------



## Doug Brott

Dr. Booda said:


> My wife is so frustrated over this issue and others that, although we have had DirecTV for over 10 years, there will come a time when we look for other options. In her mind, that time is when the NFLST monopoly ends and competitor HD offerings match those available now. Price isn't a deciding factor; ease of hardware use, reliability, and programming are.


well, you will be suffering at least 2010 .. It also wouldn't surprise me to learn that DIRECTV re-ups the contract again at that point, but it is possible it will open up at that time.

If NFLST is your primary use of DLB, then you should certainly have a usable workaround by then. The current staggered release (0x1EA) works well .. You do have to record one of the two "Live" programs, but you can easily toggle between the two in much the same way you could with the TiVo. In fact, I'd say that it's so close that the only difference is that it doesn't happen automatically ..


----------



## Dr. Booda

Doug Brott said:


> well, you will be suffering at least 2010 .. It also wouldn't surprise me to learn that DIRECTV re-ups the contract again at that point, but it is possible it will open up at that time.
> 
> If NFLST is your primary use of DLB, then you should certainly have a usable workaround by then. The current staggered release (0x1EA) works well .. You do have to record one of the two "Live" programs, but you can easily toggle between the two in much the same way you could with the TiVo. In fact, I'd say that it's so close that the only difference is that it doesn't happen automatically ..


The HR21 is still waiting for this upgrade (NR not CE), correct?


----------



## mikewolf13

James Long said:


> I believe the statement that was intended was that "a majority of DVR users with DLB present actually use that feature",


James,

While I agree with much of your logic, I disagree with the quote above. Usage should not necesarily determine whether the feature is included.

Cruise control is on most cars, but most people don't use it (admitted assumption- no hard facts) for a variety of reasons. (habit, distance traveled, City driving/red lights, traffic)

THose that do use it, probably use it infrequently..Of course some use it very often.

But you certainly expect it to be a standard feature.... Even if far below 50% of all driving is done without the use of cruise control.

So technically I am adding frequency of usage to the percentage of users. But my underlying disagreement that DLB should not be added simply because a large of population do not use the feature, stands.

Here's what we do know (Summary of Thread):

1. DLB could be added if DTV wanted to
2. The majority of responders to the poll want it added (last 1500 votes roughly same as first 1500 votes)
3. Non-DLB users won't be impacted if they did add it
4. DTV has chosen not to add it
5. DTV won't allow Earl to say why

Item 5 is the most curious..it implies a reason more in-depth than " we simply don't want to" but maybe not...

Either way I don't expect the next 3000 posts to change the summary above..


----------



## Doug Brott

FYI .. I've mentioned it a few times, but I'm going to post it as well.

*NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..

*Workaround Setup *

Tune to Show 1. Press {*®*}. This is your primary live buffer or "anchor" program.
Tune to Show 2. Press {PAUSE}. This sets your secondary live buffer.
Press {LIST}, then {PLAY}.

*Flip Between the Dual Live Buffers*
Press {PAUSE}, then {PREV}.​
*Delete the Primary Recording*
Press {LIST}, then {●}, then {SELECT}.​
Thanks to Milominderbinder2 for the workaround and other Undocumented Tips & Trick


----------



## Doug Brott

Dr. Booda said:


> The HR21 is still waiting for this upgrade (NR not CE), correct?


Yes, I believe you are correct.


----------



## havlicek

Earl Bonovich said:


> AT&T's U-Verse DVR


Is this the only one that does not have the DLB besides the dtv boxes? 
There is speculation that DLB is being added to the u-verse dvr.

If so, then dtv boxes will soon be the only boxes not to include DLB. Or are there other hd dvrs w/ dual tuners that do not have this feature?


----------



## James Long

mikewolf13 said:


> James,
> 
> 
> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the statement that was intended was that "a majority of DVR users with DLB present actually use that feature",
> 
> 
> 
> While I agree with much of your logic, I disagree with the quote above. Usage should not necesarily determine whether the feature is included.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it shouldn't. I was trying to clarify what was being said more than supporting one side (or another) of the argument. But I am in the group that have DLB available and never use it.



> Cruise control is on most cars, but most people don't use it (admitted assumption- no hard facts) for a variety of reasons. (habit, distance traveled, City driving/red lights, traffic)


There are different standards. If you are shopping for a new car or get in a rental car and find out there is no cruise control you may be surprised but you still are in a car and can perform the primary functions of a car. I don't know what percentage of vehicles HAVE cruise control ... I would consider it a common, perhaps ubiquitous feature - but not a requirement. (Although, I would miss it on a longer drive.)

We're all guessing at why someone would or would not include DLB on a DVR. Since this thread isn't going to change anything just consider it part of the fun to question whether or not most of the rest of the world actually uses DLB when available.



> Either way I don't expect the next 3000 posts to change the summary above..


That is a truth that I believe we should all agree on.


----------



## dennisj00

At this point, since it is NOT a technical or legal reason, it has to be such a mickey-mouse decision by DTV that they are embarassed to reveal the real reason and just continue to stick to "it's not going to be added".

Just give us a reliable SLB (and a reliable DVR that doesn't sporatically reboot!)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dennisj00 said:


> At this point, since it is NOT a technical or legal reason, it has to be such a mickey-mouse decision by DTV that they are embarassed to reveal the real reason and just continue to stick to "it's not going to be added".
> 
> Just give us a reliable SLB (and a reliable DVR that doesn't sporatically reboot!)


Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
As in never?


----------



## Green23

Doug Brott said:


> FYI .. I've mentioned it a few times, but I'm going to post it as well.
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..
> 
> *Workaround Setup *
> 
> Tune to Show 1. Press {*®*}. This is your primary live buffer or "anchor" program.
> Tune to Show 2. Press {PAUSE}. This sets your secondary live buffer.
> Press {LIST}, then {PLAY}.
> 
> *Flip Between the Dual Live Buffers*
> Press {PAUSE}, then {PREV}.​
> *Delete the Primary Recording*
> Press {LIST}, then {●}, then {SELECT}.​
> Thanks to Milominderbinder2 for the workaround and other Undocumented Tips & Trick


Since the 2 tuners are capable of buffering 2 streams like this, it should have been easy for the designers to implement a simple way to switch between the 2 tuners. DLB is simply the ability to switch between 2 independent tuners- they're in there, but we can't really access them as in other 2 tuner platforms.

With any decision there are benefits vs. negative impacts of each choice. In this case the benefits of DLB are simple to see, but I don't see any negatives to allowing this function. The DVR+ isn't as fully functional as the previous platform, as the 2nd tuner is only accessible by forcing it to record a second program (instead of running continuously in the background with ability to switch tuners) Maybe should have been labeled the DVR-.

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## MikeR7

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
> As in never?


Aha! A ray of hope for you DLB users! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, I could care less now after using it(on the HR10-250 I bought on ebay last summer) and not using it(on my HR20's) for 6 months. :lol:


----------



## jheda

Oh, my good friend, the can of worms u just opened:lol: :lol: :lol: I think Jaywdetroit just woke up from a coma....



Earl Bonovich said:


> Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
> As in never?


----------



## Doug Brott

Green23 said:


> Since the 2 tuners are capable of buffering 2 streams like this, it should have been easy for the designers to implement a simple way to switch between the 2 tuners. DLB is simply the ability to switch between 2 independent tuners- they're in there, but we can't really access them as in other 2 tuner platforms.
> 
> With any decision there are benefits vs. negative impacts of each choice. In this case the benefits of DLB are simple to see, but I don't see any negatives to allowing this function. The DVR+ isn't as fully functional as the previous platform, as the 2nd tuner is only accessible by forcing it to record a second program (instead of running continuously in the background with ability to switch tuners) Maybe should have been labeled the DVR-.
> 
> :beatdeadhorse:


I'm not trying to justify why DLB isn't in the HR20/21. In fact, I'd like to have it there myself. I'm just pointing out a solution that can be used today that many will find useful.


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> Oh, my good friend, the *can of worms* u just opened:lol: :lol: :lol: I think Jaywdetroit just woke up from a coma....


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
> As in never?





Earl Bonovich said:


> Bottom line, it is their DVR... and THEY have chosen not to have THAT feature in THEIR DVR....


Should we always assume your posts have an implied "for now...."

"THEY" don't say all that much...but your posts are pretty emphatic.

Like it or not... in this forum you are the "Pope"


----------



## The Merg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Still works on my R15


It's definitely not working on the R15-300 with the most recent CE release. In a recording, hit PREV, goes to Live TV, hit PREV again, goes to Channel 201.



Earl Bonovich said:


> What official quote are you looking for?
> 
> The DVR+ line has NEVER included DLB...
> It has NEVER been stated as a feature for the unit.
> 
> Are you looking for an official press release, to confirm that the feature is not there?
> 
> As official as it is going to get:
> DirecTV has chosen not to add that feature to their DVR+ platform
> 
> That is it... that is the reason...


I realize that the feature is not there. All I was saying is that it would be nice if DirecTV gave a reason for not including it as in the complexity of instituting it makes it too time consuming to add at this time or even that they believe it is not a feature beneficial to its users.

Just something as opposed to it's not there.

- Merg


----------



## dennisj00

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
> As in never?


Without any schedule or explanation, never seems to be implied!

We have seen improvements in the HR2x series, 30SKIP - a major one that was avoided for a long time - but two years is a long time to avoid a desired feature like DLB.


----------



## Drew2k

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where have they stated "it's not going to be added" ?
> As in never?





MikeR7 said:


> Aha! A ray of hope for you DLB users! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:





jheda said:


> Oh, my good friend, the can of worms u just opened:lol: :lol: :lol: I think Jaywdetroit just woke up from a coma....


But Earl's post is actually not even news! Do I just have a longer memory than others? :scratch:

Earl has said almost the same thing many times in this very thread: Yes, DIRECTV chose not to include DLB in their DVR Plus receivers, but that doesn't mean they won't ever add it.

It's not news! :nono2:


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> But Earl's post is actually not even news! Do I just have a longer memory than others? :scratch:


I remember :grin:


----------



## anubys

I agree...Earl never said "never"...all I ask is that some day I find out the reason why it was delayed (once they decide to implement it)...

I have maintained for a long time -- based on years of experience working in a large organization -- that the reason is that someone high up made a stupid decision, won't admit that they're wrong, and thus are blocking it...someone has told Earl this but should Earl admit it here, that someone would be in a heap of trouble for "outing" the boss...once the boss is gone, they will implement it...I'd love to one day find out one way or another if that's the case...

and thanks for the tip work-around Mr. Bott...that's better than the one I've been using (recording both shows and going back to list, scrolling up/down, then play)...this even gives you the flexibility of switching the second tuner without having to kill the recording..

it's not perfect, but it's "better"...


----------



## Doug Brott

anubys said:


> and thanks for the tip work-around *Mr. Bott*...that's better than the one I've been using (recording both shows and going back to list, scrolling up/down, then play)...this even gives you the flexibility of switching the second tuner without having to kill the recording..


Mr. Bott owns DBSTalk.com .. I (Mr. Brott) am merely a moderator


----------



## Lord Vader

I thought Chris owned it. Guess I was mistaken.


----------



## Green23

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not trying to justify why DLB isn't in the HR20/21. In fact, I'd like to have it there myself. I'm just pointing out a solution that can be used today that many will find useful.


I was just using that as an example of what the platform could do if allowed - thanks for the helpful workaround.


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> His point is...
> 
> That people can make some claims (on either side of an argument), without hard statiscial evidence.


True, but often a simple viewing of the end result is the same thing as having statistical evidence.

If you look outside a window and see the sky is grey and many people are using umbrellas, you can come to the easy conclusion that it is raining even though you can't see the raindrops.

If you are on an aircraft and are flying true at 20,000 feet, you can come to the easy conclusion that the engines are working even though you can't hear them.

The mere fact that DLB isn't on the HR20 when so many other new innovations were added to please customers leads to the easy conclusion that it wasn't an important feature to the vast, vast majority.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

The Merg said:


> I realize that the feature is not there. All I was saying is that it would be nice if DirecTV gave a reason for not including it as in the complexity of instituting it makes it too time consuming to add at this time or even that they believe it is not a feature beneficial to its users.
> 
> Just something as opposed to it's not there.
> 
> - Merg


It would be nice if BMW gave a reason that only runflat tires are available on the 328i Convertible.

It would be nice if McDonalds gave a reason that only Coke products are available in their restaurants.

D* is a huge corporation that makes decisions that make the common majority happy enough to buy their products. They can't make everyone happy, nor can they take the time to issue a statement on every tweaky feature that a fraction of the owners want. If the "loss" of DLB were enough to infuriate their DVR population, it would be on there with bells on. The reason it isn't there is because it didn't matter to the vast majority of the userbase.

Clouds + Umbrellas = Rain.

BJ


----------



## anubys

Doug Brott said:


> Mr. Bott owns DBSTalk.com .. I (Mr. Brott) am merely a moderator


oops...my apologies...honest mistake :grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> The mere fact that DLB isn't on the HR20 when so many other new innovations were added to please customers leads to the easy conclusion that it wasn't an important feature to the vast, vast majority.


Or that implementing it in a way that it does not interfer with their other plans for the box.... is not as trivial as adding 30s SKIP, and moving a few menu items around.


----------



## Steve

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or that implementing it in a way that it does not interfer with their other plans for the box.... is not as trivial as adding 30s SKIP, and moving a few menu items around.


Ahhh... the plot thickens! :lol:


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> It would be nice if BMW gave a reason that only runflat tires are available on the 328i Convertible.


because runflat tires are an UPGRADE over regular tires...they give you the same functionality AND can run when flat...



boltjames said:


> It would be nice if McDonalds gave a reason that only Coke products are available in their restaurants.
> BJ


because Coke gives them more money.

seriously, some things are simple to understand...maybe what Earl just said sheds some light...there's some functionality that they deem more important to their long term plans that needs to be implemented first and would be delayed with DLB...what I don't understand is why that would be such a secret...

eh...I'm sticking by my original theory


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> The mere fact that DLB isn't on the HR20 when so many other new innovations were added to please customers leads to the easy conclusion that it wasn't an important feature to the vast, vast majority.
> 
> BJ


Not necessarily. :nono:


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> True, but often a simple viewing of the end result is the same thing as having statistical evidence.


You are correct .. The simple fact that nearly 80% of the folks here are in the "must have" category provides some evidence that this is a desired feature ..

Earl's point was that it's easy to twist the facts with statistics .. you just have to measure the right thing :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

And ask the right questions with analysis that takes into account the questions asked and the possible skew of the group being asked.

DIRECTV definitely knows of our interest. At CES, they recognized all who were there by names and avatars.

My sense is DLB is not dead, but very low on the todo list. Not because of our interests; rather for the features that are planned that make DLB non-trivial to implement. By no means impossible, the developers are better than that. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I haven't weighed in over here in a while, because it seems like it's all already been said. But, to stand beside my fellow mods, you all have to understand that our friends at DIRECTV understand how important this feature is to us. That's something anyway. We are being heard loud and clear.


----------



## direfan

Green23 said:


> FYI .. I've mentioned it a few times, but I'm going to post it as well.
> 
> NOTE: Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..
> 
> Workaround Setup
> 
> 1. Tune to Show 1. Press {®}. This is your primary live buffer or "anchor" program.
> 2. Tune to Show 2. Press {PAUSE}. This sets your secondary live buffer.
> 3. Press {LIST}, then {PLAY}.
> 
> Flip Between the Dual Live Buffers
> 
> Press {PAUSE}, then {PREV}.
> 
> Delete the Primary Recording
> 
> Press {LIST}, then {●}, then {SELECT}.
> 
> Thanks to Milominderbinder2 for the workaround and other Undocumented Tips & Trick
> 
> :beatdeadhorse:


I have an HR21 with the latest CE software. The above workaround does not work for me. Any advice? The channels that are at Pause don't remain at pause when you switch back.


----------



## Steve

direfan said:


> I have an HR21 with the latest CE software. The above workaround does not work for me. Any advice? The channels that are at Pause don't remain at pause when you switch back.


In neither case will the show you return to with PREV remain paused. Playback will immediately resume from the last PAUSE point (in the case of the LIVE BUFFER), or the last PLAYBACK point (in the case of the recording). I do it this way:

- Tune to channel A in the LIVE BUFFER.

- Tune to channel B. Hit RECORD. Then PLAY it from the PLAYLIST.

- Hit PREV to return to channel A. Hit PAUSE.

- Hit PREV and channel B resumes playback from where it was last left.

- Hit PREV and A plays back from where it was last paused.

/steve


----------



## raott

Steve said:


> In neither case will the show you return to with PREV remain paused. Playback will immediately resume from the last PAUSE point (in the case of the LIVE BUFFER), or the last PLAYBACK point (in the case of the recording). I do it this way:
> 
> - Tune to channel A in the LIVE BUFFER.
> 
> - Tune to channel B. Hit RECORD. Then PLAY it from the PLAYLIST.
> 
> - Hit PREV to return to channel A. Hit PAUSE.
> 
> - Hit PREV and channel B resumes playback from where it was last left.
> 
> - Hit PREV and A plays back from where it was last paused.
> 
> /steve


Which IMO is a poor workaround because you are forced to have the program on the "recorded" pause, and now if you want to catch up to "live" tv, you continuously have to fast forward the tuner you just switched to.

I could live with an SLB if it worked like this. I hit "R" to record on one tuner as an anchor point, turn the channel to get to the other point and then use PREV to go back and forth - without having to go to the Playlist and without having the thing pause every other time I switch - if I want to pause I can do it on my own.

Only if I play it back from the playlist should the recorded show autopause when I switch.


----------



## dennisj00

In the current CE release for the HR20-700, you don't have to pause the live buffer, but you can. 

In general, I want the live buffer to pause when I switch to the recorded (or second) program by hitting 'prev', watch the second for a while, hit 'prev' and return to the live buffer where I left off.


----------



## Steve

raott said:


> Which IMO is a poor workaround because you are forced to have the program on the "recorded" pause, and now if you want to catch up to "live" tv, you continuously have to fast forward the tuner you just switched to.


I know it's unreliable for many, but in theory, all you need to do is PRESS & HOLD ADVANCE to catch up to LIVE TV.

Hopefully DirecTV will someday implement our Wish List request:
*
During FF or RW, LEFT/RIGHT arrows should SKIP-TO-TICKS, and UP/DOWN arrows should SKIP TO BEGINNING/END.*

/steve


----------



## Stuart Sweet

dennisj00 said:


> In the current CE release for the HR20-700, you don't have to pause the live buffer, but you can.
> 
> In general, I want the live buffer to pause when I switch to the recorded (or second) program by hitting 'prev', watch the second for a while, hit 'prev' and return to the live buffer where I left off.


For more discussion on that topic, visit our Cutting Edge forum.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

boltjames said:


> It would be nice if BMW gave a reason that only runflat tires are available on the 328i Convertible.
> 
> Same as the corvette, no spare = more room in the trunk for your junk.
> 
> It would be nice if McDonalds gave a reason that only Coke products are available in their restaurants.
> 
> That would be a marketing agreement or coke offered to pay them more $.
> 
> D* is a huge corporation that makes decisions that make the common majority happy enough to buy their products. They can't make everyone happy, nor can they take the time to issue a statement on every tweaky feature that a fraction of the owners want. If the "loss" of DLB were enough to infuriate their DVR population, it would be on there with bells on. The reason it isn't there is because it didn't matter to the vast majority of the userbase.
> 
> Clouds + Umbrellas = Rain.
> 
> BJ


I hope that helps


----------



## jims

I really like the dual buffers in the older Hughes receivers and like the PIP feature that the newer receiver has on the setup menu. The fact that both are known capabilies, I would say a PIP between the two receivers would be a lot better.


----------



## flogduh

Earl Bonovich said:


> Since there is no patent or legal restriction to having DLB.
> 
> There is no risk of perceived litigation risk.
> 
> It is simply a decision that they made, for the direction and plans for their DVR.


Tell me this Earl...who at DTV do I need to go b**** slap. 

This decision is right up there with the Red Sox's trade of Babe Ruth to the Yankees....


----------



## ldw_58

I’m one of those who has been lurking on this board for many months waiting to see if DirecTV would create an acceptable workaround for DLBs before I replace my two HR-250s that are 3+ years old.

I’m encouraged by the recent workaround. The next time I’m offered everything for free to replace everything by a telemarketer I am a little tempted to take them up on it.

However...

What prevents me from upgrading and what keeps my interest in this thread alive is DirecTV’s position that the HR2x is a ‘new’ product line.

I work in product development for an unrelated software company (we have no A/V products at all to my knowledge) and in my opinion only the most cynical product manager/marketer would actually claim that a product is “new” and unrelated to a previous release when it is launched with the following criteria:

•	The previous product is effectively EOL’d at the time of the new launch (as the HR10 was when the HR20 was launched)
•	The product naming indicates a next-generation release (HR10 to HR20 to HR21) in the SAME PRODUCT LINE (regardless of what OEMs were used in earlier releases). I am baffled at the concept that a company can maintain product naming conventions and then insert the caveat that they’ve decided that because the newer versions are improved and are a “DVR+” it is therefore a completely new product line – I believe it fails the ‘reasonable person’ test.
•	All of the corporate claims about what to recommend to customers who want the fundamental feature sets of one is transferred to another. Example: customers who wanted DVR functionality with High-def for DirecTV were told on the launch of the HR20 that it was the recommended solution instead of the HR10. In my experience, old part numbers are kept around for a while after an EOL as a best practice to improve customer retention. Keeping old part number active doesn’t automatically indicate that a new release is an unrelated product.

I am irritated by the business ethics of company that seems to claim (as has been stated) that the new release is a totally new product when any reasonable analysis would indicate that they’re in the same product line and that the EOL of one is directly related to the new release of the other.

The claims about HR20 being a “new” product with no obligation to consider previous features seems to be me to be sophistry in order to avoid revenue recognition obligations.

If, as has been stated, DirecTV is happy with their DVR product development team, I have to wonder if they’re not getting too much credit for the success of the product instead of giving credit to the business development team that inked exclusive deals with the NFL & with MLB & with the satellite team that has planned well for HD capacity.

I feel like keeping quiet this long has just made my blood pressure rise. 

My belief is that improving a product’s ease of use based on customer feedback is as important as adding bells and whistles to the feature set in new releases – regardless of whether some business leader has determined that a feature doesn’t belong in his or her definition of what a DVR should be.


----------



## JBernardK

I agree with the previous poster on his issues, but I'm not sure Directv ever came out and said it was a completely new product. I think that concept has been pushed by posters on this forum who are trying to defend the HR20/21 line. You need to distinguish what Directv says officially and what people say here, I think.


----------



## Doug Brott

ldw_58 said:


> I'm one of those who has been lurking on this board for many months waiting to see if DirecTV would create an acceptable workaround for DLBs before I replace my two HR-250s that are 3+ years old.


Keep in mind that the MPEG2-HD will end completely at some point. There will come a time when you will have 100% SD via the SAT + your HD locals over the air (assuming you can utilize an antenna). This may be acceptable to you. If you want to enjoy the additional HD channels, you will need to get an HR20 or HR21.


----------



## Kojo62

dennisj00 said:


> In the current CE release for the HR20-700, you don't have to pause the live buffer, but you can.
> 
> In general, I want the live buffer to pause when I switch to the recorded (or second) program by hitting 'prev', watch the second for a while, hit 'prev' and return to the live buffer where I left off.


Is that how it works in CE? Even my DirecTiVos with DLB don't do that. If you don't manually pause the buffer before switching to the other, it resumes live when you come back to it.

Since receiving Release 0x1EA just this past week, the workaround works on my HR20-100 exactly as described by Doug above. Still a compromise from the "true" DLB functionality I was used to, but the workaround behaves a lot better now than it did before this release.


----------



## dennisj00

You have to manually pause the live buffer before switching to the prerecorded or it continues buffering the program until you return - and you would have to rewind back to some point.

The pause point started working around release 1EA so you're not far from having a reasonably good workaround. I'm a T-60 convert and miss the DLB but the workaround isn't bad.

The only other disadvantage is if you've got a folder of the recorded program- just a few more keystrokes on the setup.


----------



## inkahauts

Earl Bonovich said:


> Or that implementing it in a way that it does not interfer with their other plans for the box.... is not as trivial as adding 30s SKIP, and moving a few menu items around.


Earlier this week I posted in another thread that I thought MRV was the reason DLB wasn't coming. Now I am thinking that MRV is the reason we don't have it yet, but that we may have it eventually. Imagine this June... You've come home from a hards days work and both your tuners are being used on your main tv, but using your MRV and DLB, you can still watch those two sporting events, (Lakers dismantlementing the Celtics in the Finals, and the Red Socksbeating up on the the yankess) in full DLB..

Seriously though, with so many streams about to come online (MRV from any number of HR2Xs, DOD, Sat and internet, OTA via AM21, and streaming from your computer) Maybe the decision was made that DLB shouldn't be incorporated until after all these sources are fully up and running so they don't waste time doing DLB, then having to throw it out and redo when they add additional streams.... Maybe DLB just has to wait till other things show up.... And I don't expect this unbelievable pace of new feature additions can keep up for more than another 9 months or so (lord have mercy if they have that many more things planned!) , so maybe just maybe.....


----------



## inkahauts

ldw_58 said:


> I'm one of those who has been lurking on this board for many months waiting to see if DirecTV would create an acceptable workaround for DLBs before I replace my two HR-250s that are 3+ years old.
> 
> I'm encouraged by the recent workaround. The next time I'm offered everything for free to replace everything by a telemarketer I am a little tempted to take them up on it.
> 
> However...
> 
> What prevents me from upgrading and what keeps my interest in this thread alive is DirecTV's position that the HR2x is a 'new' product line.
> 
> I work in product development for an unrelated software company (we have no A/V products at all to my knowledge) and in my opinion only the most cynical product manager/marketer would actually claim that a product is "new" and unrelated to a previous release when it is launched with the following criteria:
> 
> •	The previous product is effectively EOL'd at the time of the new launch (as the HR10 was when the HR20 was launched)
> •	The product naming indicates a next-generation release (HR10 to HR20 to HR21) in the SAME PRODUCT LINE (regardless of what OEMs were used in earlier releases). I am baffled at the concept that a company can maintain product naming conventions and then insert the caveat that they've decided that because the newer versions are improved and are a "DVR+" it is therefore a completely new product line - I believe it fails the 'reasonable person' test.
> •	All of the corporate claims about what to recommend to customers who want the fundamental feature sets of one is transferred to another. Example: customers who wanted DVR functionality with High-def for DirecTV were told on the launch of the HR20 that it was the recommended solution instead of the HR10. In my experience, old part numbers are kept around for a while after an EOL as a best practice to improve customer retention. Keeping old part number active doesn't automatically indicate that a new release is an unrelated product.
> 
> I am irritated by the business ethics of company that seems to claim (as has been stated) that the new release is a totally new product when any reasonable analysis would indicate that they're in the same product line and that the EOL of one is directly related to the new release of the other.
> 
> The claims about HR20 being a "new" product with no obligation to consider previous features seems to be me to be sophistry in order to avoid revenue recognition obligations.
> 
> If, as has been stated, DirecTV is happy with their DVR product development team, I have to wonder if they're not getting too much credit for the success of the product instead of giving credit to the business development team that inked exclusive deals with the NFL & with MLB & with the satellite team that has planned well for HD capacity.
> 
> I feel like keeping quiet this long has just made my blood pressure rise.
> 
> My belief is that improving a product's ease of use based on customer feedback is as important as adding bells and whistles to the feature set in new releases - regardless of whether some business leader has determined that a feature doesn't belong in his or her definition of what a DVR should be.


I hear you, and I like your argument.. But I want to throw a few things out there...

The HR20 is superior to the HR10 in EVERY way to me, because while I like the DLB, there are many other things that are so much better and so much more important to me that I could care less if DLB if gets implemented. Frankly, I hardly ever used it with my old Tivo, ( I have a rather unique setup making DLB a mute point for me, see this quote: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1368804#post1368804) however I would love to see it implemented for the people that want it.... However, your argument on the marketing aspect is much more fact based, so I will ask this to you...

I will say that the HR20 is an entirely new product line. Here is why. It may have some of the same capabilities, but it was built from the ground up. They may have figured out how to do it because of the previous product line, but that doesn't mean its the same. Example, When Saturn came out with their first cars, they were considered an entirely new product line. The reality is that they were created from the knowledge of all other existing cars, but built in a different place, with different parts, using different people, yet it was still owned by GM, and it was still a car. Does that mean that this car wasn't a new product? Built from the ground up, even if it has the same core functionality of another product that was produced before it that was owned by the same company?

Also they didn't offer a V6 option, even though many people wanted it. Many competitors had it, and more importantly, most GM cars offer it as well. Does that mean that this product was inferior just because it didn't offer a V6, which many people would have preferred?

As for model names, I think Directv has finally found a system that makes sense and is easy to follow. I don't think they label the model numbers with regards to marketing, I think its now more about when a product comes out, what physical capabilities it has, and who makes it (an engineer or product developer came up with the model number if you ask me). The Model that Directv uses to sell it to customers is DirecTV Plus HDDVR, not HR20, etc. They never referred to the Tivo as an HR10-250. They referred to it as a TIVO HD DVR for DirecV. I don't think the 2 in the HR20-700 was meant to be 2nd gen. it was meant to mean 2nd HD reciever every released that works with Directv. Those are two very different things.

They never said it was unrelated, but considering it had all kinds of new physical capabilities, and that the software is completely different and was built from the ground up, I believe it is a totally new product, which is also why the fact that its lack of DLB is not a step backwards in any way for this product. To me that holds as much water as saying that when Boeing came out with the 777 dreamliner that it was a step backward because it didn't seat as many people as a 747.

Also, the previous product (Tivo HD) is anything but end of life... It is still fully supported, and will do everything but tune a couple satellite HD channels, (which means it is loosing only a couple HD channels, as it never had the new ones, which is less than half the HD channels that it has ever been able to show) and will continue to be supported for years to come, including an announced firmware update this year that will actually increase its capabilities. I would not call this product EOL. I would only label it out of production. I will say that this is one of the few times that I can actually say that with any electronics product. I will also say that its initial reason for release is no longer valid, and it should now be looked at as a re tasked unit... which in my mind is all the more proof that it is not at EOL.

The lack of DLB has nothing to do with any monetary obligation it would have were it to be implemented, for there is no one they would have to pay.

And the more people speculate, the more it makes sense that we don't have DLB because of something that is coming that we don't know about, and I agree with keeping that silent until necessary, otherwise all people will do is ask why that feature isn't available yet and say that the box isn't any good because its missing this one feature it never claimed to have (or said it would have eventually) and doesn't have yet... sound familiar....

Shoot, I'm proud of the developers of the HR2x's. They have listened to people hear in a way that I have never seen before when it comes to a company implementing its customers suggestions, and they have made the HR2x a great machine and pulled it from the ditches of &^%&^$ that it was in in September of 2007.

I think a lot of people take the lack of dlb as a personal attack on trying to change how they watch tv, and I just don't think thats what this is. I don't believe that is something that would ever come from Directv. Those things always come from the content providers, i.e. Replay loosing its commercial skip feature because it was being sued by Hollywood.

I think its because of something that one day will make sense too us all.... and that will be glad that it all happened the way it did....


----------



## ldw_58

inkahauts said:


> However, your argument on the marketing aspect is much more fact based, so I will ask this to you...


inkahauts,
I appreciated your intelligent & informed response and since you asked a question I will reply but otherwise I feel my comments pretty much stand for themselves as a subjective opinion on something which I consider to be an ethical matter.

Having been following this forum for quite some time -- and being an early adopter -- the one thing I've come to realize is that this industry keeps changing. I stayed with DirecTV when it seemed like they would never catch up in terms of content with Dish and now I have the option to stay with the leading distributor of content!

Until, as Doug Brott points out, I am forced to make a decision, for the moment I'm content to watch and wait and see what happens. I'm also fortunate in my location to get great access to lots of OTA content and do most of my recording from OTA broadcasts.

I was, I must admit, VERY happy to see the news about the new OTA option for the HR2x boxes. At least I don't have to be concerned about lack of OTA support to be an issue any longer.

I travel a great deal and have not seen a product since the HR10-250 that excites me as much as the Sling products and I am interested to see what Dish does with them as well as the Archos integration. As long as there is competition, DirecTV and Dish will work to adopt the desirable competitive differentiation of the other vendor.

I'm also extremely intrigued by the premise of AppleTV and am wondering what that will be like in two or three years when there is competition from vendors like Sling & Archos and what the competitive world will be like when the Internet starts really being able to provide HD content.

Therefore, the only thing that I'm really left with to help me choose what vendor I want to go forward with is the behavior of the vendor as I see it.

There's a lot of bashing in the Dish forums of that vendor too. I certainly don't want to let my frustration with DirecTV lead me to jump out of the proverbial frying pan into the fire.

However...

Having dealt with 3rd-party suppliers and rebranded solutions based on OEMed software, I don't consider the fact that a vendor drops an OEM'd SW component (e.g., 'TiVo') in one release for internally developed software for a newer release to be sufficient justification to say that the new release is an entirely new product line. It does say a lot for the ambition level of the internal development team but it really doesn't mean much, in my opinion, to the customers who have grown used to the previous product.

In my experience, one of the best ways to anger a customer base is to require them to adopt a completely different use model when they recieve/purchase an enhancement. My comments are based solely on my experiences with other products and also having dealt with MANY angry customers in my day.

I believe that you have as valid an argument as I do. At the end of the day we're probably both right if the assumption is that it's all just a matter of perception (which is what I believe).

I certainly am impressed with the way DirecTV bizdev has raised the bar aggressively to supply massive amounts of content and that they're forcing every other content distributor (cable, satellite, etc.) to put up or shut up.

Finally...

I've really appreciated what this forum provides in terms of allowing me to learn more about a topic I'm truly passionate about. Many thanks to those who provide it & who provide information they know about the way DirecTV functions internally! Thanks again!


----------



## inkahauts

ldw_58 said:


> inkahauts,
> In my experience, one of the best ways to anger a customer base is to require them to adopt a completely different use model when they recieve/purchase an enhancement. My comments are based solely on my experiences with other products and also having dealt with MANY angry customers in my day.


If there is one thing I completely agree with, I too hate it when a company completely redoes something, especially when it only benefits the company, annoys the customer, and hurts there customer satisfaction, and then standing there in front of the line and taking all the heat for it. I have seen way to much of that in my time....

With that said I do believe sometimes technology requires that change, and I think that to some extent that has happened with Directv and is part of the reason they left Tivo. Frankly, I am not sure we'd have a HD DVR capable of picking up MPEG-4 off Directv if they had stayed with them. Just look at whats happening with Tivo's deal with all the cable company s. 3 years and its still not completely rolled out and evidently has as many problems or more than the HR20 did in 2006.....

Also, for me, the the hr20 gets me back to a GUI that is much more efficient, because I came from Replays and UltimateTV before my Tivo. So for me the GUI (which operates much more like a replay or ultimatetv) isn't asking me to do anything differently, alas, I now I am not in the majority on that one though....

I love my slingbox too..... I can't wait to see if they enable the HR2xs to work like a sling box built in... I wouldn't be surprised if they do, seeing the other abilities they have announced for it... Its just a matter of whether or not they will enable transmitting over the internet or just your home network.....


----------



## afrosales

I'm having a hard time figuring where to post, but since my problem started with lack of DLB on the HR21, I'll post here...
let me sum up... Upgraded from old old old SD Tivo to HR21. We can't live with lack of DLB, so I went a little bit backwards to HR10-250. Less HD content, but pretty happy with my DLB back.
So, now I want to send back my HR21, but they will not give me back my $279 for the box I bought at Costco (I know, it's a "lease"). *Is there any possible way to get my money back?* I used to love these guys, but now... very unhappy.
Sidebar: I just read that I may even lose the HD I am getting now on the HR10-250? What a rip.


----------



## Lord Vader

If it's a deactivated unit, try selling it on ebay.


----------



## afrosales

Lord Vader said:


> If it's a deactivated unit, try selling it on ebay.


Um... can I do that if this is technically a leased box?

Ok, so I read back many pages in the thread (I'll probably get fired from my job). First, I have to say that I am a little put off by Earl's attitude of knowing some answers and not providing them. Couldn't you say soemthing like "Really sorry gang, but I'll get fired if I say any more." Instead, you tease like a schoolchild. Maybe you did say something and I didn't read back far enough. If so, then I'm sorry, Earl.

It's hard to believe, but I can understand that we, however passionate, are such a small portion of the customer base that DTV has DLB low on the priority list. Sad, because it's #1 on mine.


----------



## Tom Robertson

afrosales said:


> Um... can I do that if this is technically a leased box?
> 
> Ok, so I read back many pages in the thread (I'll probably get fired from my job). First, I have to say that I am a little put off by Earl's attitude of knowing some answers and not providing them. Couldn't you say soemthing like "Really sorry gang, but I'll get fired if I say any more." Instead, you tease like a schoolchild. Maybe you did say something and I didn't read back far enough. If so, then I'm sorry, Earl.
> 
> It's hard to believe, but I can understand that we, however passionate, are such a small portion of the customer base that DTV has DLB low on the priority list. Sad, because it's #1 on mine.


You are correct, leased boxes should not be sold at all. DIRECTV should request it be returned to you.

I'm sorry you don't appreciate the humor Earl and I try to put into our comments. Most everyone here already knows that we can't tell much of what we know today. It might change.

If we do tell, we won't get any new information ever again. We do not want to jeopardize the relationships that have been very beneficial to everyone: readers, us, and DIRECTV.

So we hint as we are able, mostly to have fun.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

It can be sold if he bought it as Costco. If Costco won't accept it via return, he can sell it on ebay. I've done it with no problems.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lord Vader said:


> It can be sold if he bought it as Costco. If Costco won't accept it via return, he can sell it on ebay. I've done it with no problems.


If it has been activated, you can't sell it. If you buy it at Costco and don't activate it, then you are in the area of having a leased unit that you "shouldn't" sell legally. Especially if you tell the buyer it would be an owned unit.


----------



## Doug Brott

afrosales said:


> Sidebar: I just read that I may even lose the HD I am getting now on the HR10-250? What a rip.


yes, MPEG-2 HD will gradually vanish completely from DIRECTV. The HR10-250 will of course get OTA HD, but all SAT-based content will be SD only. It's not clear when that will be completed, but you can already see some of the effects today.


----------



## afrosales

Thanks for the info guys. Sorry if I lashed out, I'm very emotional about this DLB thing.


----------



## inkahauts

afrosales said:


> Thanks for the info guys. Sorry if I lashed out, I'm very emotional about this DLB thing.


I am always curious for people that are this passionate about DLB. What do you watch live so often on tv that you need DLB? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand the reasons people want it so bad... I can't stand watching anything live anymore unless it a really big sports program, like the suprebowl....


----------



## Tom Robertson

Most common use I have for DLB is NFL. I typically watch a main game live and surf or watch a second in the background during commercial breaks.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

Some here, including one of the moderators, diminish DLB as not being a core function of a DVR, that the primary purpose of a DVR is to record. Well, what does one think DLB is? Moreover, the HR20s and HR21s have two tuners, effectively meaning there are two DVRs in one. Each tuner can be considered a mini-TV in and of itself. What is the purpose of even having two tuners if they cannot be treated as such? _Choosing _ to not have DLB renders such a device less than 100% effective and less than what its ideal purpose is supposed to be.


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> _Choosing _ to not have DLB renders such a device less than 100% effective and less than what its ideal purpose is supposed to be.


Have to disagree here. The primary purpose of a DVR with two-tuners is to let you watch one thing while recording another. That's why it's there. So dad doesn't get frustrated when mom changes the channel and accidentally cancels his recording. Or when mom gets mad that the DVR has to be set to ESPN to record the Arm Wrestling Championship when she'd rather watch The Biggest Loser: Couples Edition.

It's "ideal purpose" is to allow flexible recording/watching of more than one single channel. This dual tuner hopping was just a happy accident. Was never meant to be some great "feature".

BJ


----------



## boltjames

inkahauts said:


> I am always curious for people that are this passionate about DLB. What do you watch live so often on tv that you need DLB? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand the reasons people want it so bad... I can't stand watching anything live anymore unless it a really big sports program, like the suprebowl....


It has it's purposes. The other night I was waiting to hear Obama's victory speech in SC and wanted to catch the score of a hockey game on ESPN's ticker. Instead of being able to jump back/forth at will until the score came up, I had to be extra cautious with my timing lest I miss the beginning of the speech.

It's rare, but it happens sometimes that it's useful. But not so useful that it deserves all this attention.

BJ


----------



## NickD

boltjames said:


> It's "ideal purpose" is to allow flexible recording/watching of more than one single channel. This dual tuner hopping was just a happy accident. Was never meant to be some great "feature".
> 
> BJ


The problem is that DLB did become a feature, and obviously from this thread one that is missed by many people.

I used to use DLB during the day when watching tv with my kids. One tuner would have something on for them and the other would be for me. We would pause and flip back and forth. The other side benefit of DLB was finding other shows to record that were airing on the second tuner. There have been many times that I would flip to the second tuner and find something interesting on and record it.

To pretty much sum up my use of DLB. I used it everyday! Every time I fired up the tv, I would check each tuner to see what was on.


----------



## Lord Vader

Just ignore boltjames like 99.63% of us do. That way, you don't have to read his replies, which never counter on point anyway. If you hadn't quoted him, I wouldn't have seen his reply to my post, a reply which, as usual, is incorrect and faulty.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Lord Vader said:


> Some here, including one of the moderators, diminish DLB as not being a core function of a DVR, that the primary purpose of a DVR is to record. Well, what does one think DLB is? Moreover, the HR20s and HR21s have two tuners, effectively meaning there are two DVRs in one. Each tuner can be considered a mini-TV in and of itself. What is the purpose of even having two tuners if they cannot be treated as such? _Choosing _ to not have DLB renders such a device less than 100% effective and less than what its ideal purpose is supposed to be.


Go ahead... you can say my name... it's no mystery that I think DLB is not a core function of a DVR.

The PRIMARY purpose of a DVR is to record.

DLB, is an attept to watch two live broadcasts at once... basically trying to use the reciever as TWO receivers.. with one TV.

As for the purpose of having TWO tuners...
How about being able to record that second program that you must watch.... while you are watching another... so that when you are done with the first, you can watch the other.

Or how about recording two things at once... as we all know the networks just love to place populat shows against one another....


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> DLB, is an attept to watch two live broadcasts at once... basically trying to use the reciever as TWO receivers.. with one TV.


The ability of one receiver to act as two, on one TV??? What you speak of is BLASPHEMY!!! Who would want to do such a thing!?!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> The ability of one receiver to act as two, on one TV??? What you speak of is BLASPHEMY!!! Who would want to do such a thing!?!


It is fine that people want to do that...

But to argue that it is a critical or "must have" funcion of a DVR... is the point. It is a nice luxury to have that ability to use that to watch two live broadcasts... but it isn't a core function of the DVR.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is fine that people want to do that...
> 
> But to argue that it is a critical or "must have" funcion of a DVR... is the point. It is a nice luxury to have that ability to use that to watch two live broadcasts... but it isn't a core function of the DVR.


Based on your opinion of the definition of a DVR. I, like many others on this forum along with many other DVR software programmers, don't share that opinion.


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## JBernardK

Perhaps D* plans to implement DLB and then charge you two receiver lease fees since you now have two receivers.


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## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is fine that people want to do that...
> 
> But to argue that it is a critical or "must have" funcion of a DVR... is the point. It is a nice luxury to have that ability to use that to watch two live broadcasts... but it isn't a core function of the DVR.


Even though almost every other DVR has it?


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## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> Even though almost every other DVR has it?


Yes... I still think it is not a critical function of DVR...
It is a nice add-on and feature to have... but it is not a critical function of a DVR.

The TiVo's don't have a power button on their remote... but almost all other consumer electronic device do.... Should TiVo add a power button, just because everyone else has one?


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## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> Perhaps D* plans to implement DLB and then charge you two receiver lease fees since you now have two receivers.


All mirroing and fees are based on the # of access cards.
So unless they are planning to add a 2nd access card.


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## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> Based on your opinion of the definition of a DVR. I, like many others on this forum along with many other DVR software programmers, don't share that opinion.


Well... not the first time people don't agree with me...

I use my DVR to record programs... to watch later.
Not to be at my TV at 7pm, so I can watch two things at once.

I would rather enjoy the first program... then sit and watch the second program (with the full ability to skip over the advertisement... or watch it later on if it is late).


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## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Go ahead... you can say my name... it's no mystery that I think DLB is not a core function of a DVR.
> 
> The PRIMARY purpose of a DVR is to record.
> 
> DLB, is an attept to watch two live broadcasts at once... basically trying to use the reciever as TWO receivers.. with one TV.
> 
> As for the purpose of having TWO tuners...
> How about being able to record that second program that you must watch.... while you are watching another... so that when you are done with the first, you can watch the other.
> 
> Or how about recording two things at once... as we all know the networks just love to place populat shows against one another....


FYI, I left your name out of it because I was attempting to be professional and not have my post construed as a personal wack.


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## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well... not the first time people don't agree with me...
> 
> I use my DVR to record programs... to watch later.
> Not to be at my TV at 7pm, so I can watch two things at once.
> 
> I would rather enjoy the first program... then sit and watch the second program (with the full ability to skip over the advertisement... or watch it later on if it is late).


Then you haven't met my parents, who record everything it seems _*but still watch live*_ the shows they are recording! Apparently they don't mind sitting through gobs of endless commercials (American Idol, for example, is chock full of commercial breaks.)

I can't figure these two people out! 

_But I digress._


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## Tom Robertson

Lord Vader, that is one step beyond my parents, who I thought were a odd as DVR users.

My parents:
1) do not use Series Links for primetime; they manually pick items to watch from the guide. (Running out of space because of soaps that are on Series Links)
2) do not skip commercials much, so Dad can still read the paper while watching TV
3) watch several shows live. (But not whilst recording them, normally.)

Parents! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Dr. Booda

inkahauts said:


> I am always curious for people that are this passionate about DLB. What do you watch live so often on tv that you need DLB? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand the reasons people want it so bad... I can't stand watching anything live anymore unless it a really big sports program, like the suprebowl....


Yes, I watch live TV every day and miss DLB immensely. Beyond the sports applications, I used it routinely for current news events (elections, crises). It's kind of hard to record any current event related topic and watch it later, unless one likes living in the past.


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## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Lord Vader, that is one step beyond my parents, who I thought were a odd as DVR users.
> 
> My parents:
> 1) do not use Series Links for primetime; they manually pick items to watch from the guide. (Running out of space because of soaps that are on Series Links)
> 2) do not skip commercials much, so Dad can still read the paper while watching TV
> 3) watch several shows live. (But not whilst recording them, normally.)
> 
> Parents!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I prayed I wouldn't grow up to be like them! I'm in my 40s now and have to wonder if I'm doomed to follow in their genetic footsteps. If so, someone please shoot me before that happens.


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## Stuart Sweet

Tom Robertson said:


> Lord Vader, that is one step beyond my parents, who I thought were a odd as DVR users.
> 
> My parents:
> 1) do not use Series Links for primetime; they manually pick items to watch from the guide. (Running out of space because of soaps that are on Series Links)
> 2) do not skip commercials much, so Dad can still read the paper while watching TV
> 3) watch several shows live. (But not whilst recording them, normally.)
> 
> Parents!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


My mom is fairly adept at using a VCR.

I use as my point of reference, friends of mine who have a DVR. I consider them average Joe and average Jane. They mostly use the DVR to pause the action for bathroom breaks, and to occasionally get their "appointment TV" if they're going to be out of the house.

Their usage pattern is just as valid, and just as valuable to DIRECTV as mine. They have the same package as I do and pay the same bill. One of these days I'll ask average Joe what he thinks of DLB, and I expect him to say, "DL what? DL Hughley?"


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## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> My parents:
> 2) do not skip commercials much, so Dad can still read the paper while watching TV


Well technically, that's still skipping commercials  .. just at a more leisurely pace


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## Button Pusher

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well... not the first time people don't agree with me...
> 
> I use my DVR to record programs... to watch later.
> Not to be at my TV at 7pm, so I can watch two things at once.
> 
> I would rather enjoy the first program... then sit and watch the second program (with the full ability to skip over the advertisement... or watch it later on if it is late).


I also use my DVR this way. Not having DLB is not affecting the primary way I use my DVR.I also agree that it would be a nice add-on or feature to have in a DVR for when you are home and want to watch two sporting events at the same time.


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## Doug Brott

tiger2005 said:


> Based on your opinion of the definition of a DVR. I, like many others on this forum along with many other DVR software programmers, don't share that opinion.


There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that DLB is a popular feature. In fact, it's something that I want as well although in my personal situation It actually doesn't bother me too much. My wife talks about it frequently, though.

That being said, I must agree with Earl in that DLB is not a core feature of a DVR. It may simply be semantics but it's also clear to me that both the HR20 and HR21 are doing phenomenal despite the lack of DLB. In some respects, even a second tuner is not part of the core functionality.


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## MikeR7

When I got my HR10-250 from E-Bay last summer to find out what all the fuss was about, I searched the manual for at least 20 minutes trying to find out how to use the DLB feature. Guess what, it is not in the manual. :lol: 

That would say to me that it wasn't a key feature in the minds of DirecTV™ and TIVO when they produced the manual anyway.

I had to come here and ask how to use it, and then it took me some time to make it work right. You have to admit it isn't exactly the most user friendly feature. Since I don't use it much, it often times takes me quite awhile to get the two channels I want to have in the buffers.


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## Mike Bertelson

MikeR7 said:


> When I got my HR10-250 from E-Bay last summer to find out what all the fuss was about, I searched the manual for at least 20 minutes trying to find out how to use the DLB feature. Guess what, it is not in the manual. :lol:
> 
> That would say to me that it wasn't a key feature in the minds of DirecTV™ and TIVO when they produced the manual anyway.
> 
> I had to come here and ask how to use it, and then it took me some time to make it work right. You have to admit it isn't exactly the most user friendly feature. Since I don't use it much, it often times takes me quite awhile to get the two channels I want to have in the buffers.


However, the HD-DVRs currently out there do have this in their manuals. It's not called Dual Live Buffers but something like "how to watch two live shows at once" or "switch between two live shows".

IMHO, it is becoming a documented, marketable feature.

Mike


----------



## tiger2005

Stuart Sweet said:


> My mom is fairly adept at using a VCR.
> 
> I use as my point of reference, friends of mine who have a DVR. I consider them average Joe and average Jane. They mostly use the DVR to pause the action for bathroom breaks, and to occasionally get their "appointment TV" if they're going to be out of the house.
> 
> Their usage pattern is just as valid, and just as valuable to DIRECTV as mine. They have the same package as I do and pay the same bill. One of these days I'll ask average Joe what he thinks of DLB, and I expect him to say, "DL what? DL Hughley?"


They must have DirecTV's line of DVR's then. 

Also, I could ask my wife what DLB is and she would have no clue. However, if I ask her how to watch two live shows on the TiVo at the same time, she can flip the buffers, set the buffers up, etc. without any problems. Just because people don't know what DLB refers to, doesn't mean they don't know how to use the feature. Phrasing a question in a particular manner can make a big difference. Don't statisticians have a term or a saying for this kind of 'poll' bias?


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## tiger2005

Dr. Booda said:


> Yes, I watch live TV every day and miss DLB immensely. Beyond the sports applications, I used it routinely for current news events (elections, crises). It's kind of hard to record any current event related topic and watch it later, unless one likes living in the past.


+1
Using DLB for news coverage ran fairly close in usage to sports.


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## kanderna

MikeR7 said:


> You have to admit it isn't exactly the most user friendly feature. Since I don't use it much, it often times takes me quite awhile to get the two channels I want to have in the buffers.


How is one button not user friendly?

Oh, on second read realized you meant the process of getting both tuners on the right channels. But still... not sure how that process becomes easier: type in the channel, hit "2nd tuner button," type in channel. All set.


----------



## woj027

I know this thread has had some "excitement" over the years. But my initial interest in this thread was because it was a Poll., and to hopefully find out why DLB wasn’t on the HR2x.

I voted "A really must have!" All from my previous introduction on the DirecTV Tivo. I miss my DLB.

I also hoped that there would be an answer to why there is no DLB, but alas we are not privy to the complete explanation (albeit a few of here). I accept the fact that Earl is "in the know", I actually appreciate it. 

Earl time and time again you have that little nugget of information that helps us out. You have been a great insider for all of us. I am disappointed that the best answer I can get is "because they chose not to add that feature". But I will take that answer every time if you continue to provide us with other information, hints, tips, tricks and so on that you have helped make our life so much easier. Thanks again.

I do not think DLB is a vital part of a DVR, but it is definitely something that I would want if it was an option for me. 

I miss my DLB, but I’m not going to give up MPEG-4 for it either.


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## James Long

Lord Vader said:


> Just ignore boltjames like 99.63% of us do. That way, you don't have to read his replies, which never counter on point anyway. If you hadn't quoted him, I wouldn't have seen his reply to my post, a reply which, as usual, is incorrect and faulty.


It is hard to have a reasonable conversation with someone you are ignoring ... it turns the ignorer into the ignorant, not the ignoree.

Keep an open mind.


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## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... I still think it is not a critical function of DVR...
> It is a nice add-on and feature to have... but it is not a critical function of a DVR.
> 
> The TiVo's don't have a power button on their remote... but almost all other consumer electronic device do.... Should TiVo add a power button, just because everyone else has one?


Well perhaps D* should stop advertising that the DVR has the ability to pause live TV?

And what does a power button buy you on a DVR?


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## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> Well perhaps D* should stop advertising that the DVR has the ability to pause live TV?
> 
> And what does a power button buy you on a DVR?


Well you can pause live TV... as that is a feature of their box.
What if it wasn't there? Would you still not be able to record.

Is pausing LIVE TV a critical core function of a DVR?

I would still say that isn't a critical core function... As the DVR would still record my shows and allow me to watch them when I wanted to.

There are not many function of a DVR, that I would put in the category of "core/critical" function.... every other feature on top of that is nice, and does add to the funciton of that particular DVR.

And does make THAT particular DVR, what it is... and provide comparison points to those making choices based on what the units can do.

----

As for the power button.....
It is there on just about every other piece of equipment, so why not on the TiVo?

I mean that is the argument that is used often for DLB... it is there on every other DVR... so why not on the DVR+ platform?


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## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> And what does a power button buy you on a DVR?


My Sony based stand alone Tivo's and DirecTivo's both had power buttons and it was right on the remote.


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## Stuart Sweet

tiger2005 said:


> They must have DirecTV's line of DVR's then.
> 
> Also, I could ask my wife what DLB is and she would have no clue. However, if I ask her how to watch two live shows on the TiVo at the same time, she can flip the buffers, set the buffers up, etc. without any problems. Just because people don't know what DLB refers to, doesn't mean they don't know how to use the feature. Phrasing a question in a particular manner can make a big difference. Don't statisticians have a term or a saying for this kind of 'poll' bias?


I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is not that I will specifically use the term DLB, but that no matter how I phrase the question, this person would simply not be interested in using his TV any differently than he does now. He has been uninterested in any of the other features of the DVR other than single live buffering and single event recording.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bonscott87 said:


> My Sony based stand alone Tivo's and DirecTivo's both had power buttons and it was right on the remote.


But they went away with the Series II (at least off the remote)


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## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well you can pause live TV... as that is a feature of their box.
> What if it wasn't there? Would you still not be able to record.
> 
> Is pausing LIVE TV a critical core function of a DVR?
> 
> I would still say that isn't a critical core function... As the DVR would still record my shows and allow me to watch them when I wanted to.


I get that the DVR+ developers decided that users prefer to record programs instead of watching live TV via DLB or time shifting, however why do a majority of other DVR manufacturers have a contrarian viewpoint?

The old time DirecTV subscribers all had plain receivers and used to watch TV live or record programs via VCR's. In my mind, things haven't changed; the DVR is just an evolution in recording ability beyond the VCR. Many people use it the same way as their old VCR.

When the HR10 (my first DVR) introduced DLB to me, I was ecstatic that not only did the unit evolve the VCR to a new recording device, but DLB evolved live TV viewing as well. It was the best of both worlds, which has now been IMO undone. Hopefully, that will be corrected someday.


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## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> I get that the DVR+ developers decided that users prefer to record programs instead of watching live TV via DLB or time shifting, however why do a majority of other DVR manufacturers have a contrarian viewpoint?


It is not DVR+ developers who make that decision... it is those responsible for the features ect of the system.....

As for why the others have it....

Well a lot of them where out to clone the TiVo... (that is one reason)

Another is that there is a customer base that wants to watch two live TV events.

At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> It is not DVR+ developers who make that decision... it is those responsible for the features ect of the system.....
> 
> As for why the others have it....
> 
> Well a lot of them where out to clone the TiVo... (that is one reason)
> 
> Another is that there is a customer base that wants to watch two live TV events.
> 
> At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
> Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO


So other manufacturers chose to clone TiVo and DirecTV didn't? That confuses me. Cloning something usually indicates that it is something of value, or else it wouldn't be copied. The product baseline then evolves as new features are added to what is considered the unit that everyone wants. To scrap the baseline and move off in an independent direction means that one either hates the baseline for some reason, or thinks that they can corner the market with other features.

In my case, signing up for DirecTV service had nothing to do with the features of their receiver (or if I was to join today the current features of their DVR), it was due to their programming. I wouldn't be attracted to the company because their DVR can play music files off of my computer or have interactive gaming, however I can understand if others would. I use my PS3 for those capabilities; I use the DVR+ to record and watch TV.


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## ToddinVA

Earl Bonovich said:


> But they went away with the Series II (at least off the remote)


Obviously because it made no sense for DVR that's supposed to run 24/7.


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## Tom Robertson

It seems to me there are several things to consider in "what are the core features of a DVR?":

1) Historical perspective of what the DVR replaced
2) How the DVR was marketed
3) How _users_ (who pay for the devices one way or another) actually use the device. 

The DVR, in my mind replaced the VCR. Mostly a recording and playback device, tho not solely such. How many of us used the VCR as a live TV cable convertor on an older TV that didn't support cable channels? (I did!) 

How were Replay, Tivo, UltimateTV originally marketed? My vague recollections were that it heavily included the ability to pause live TV while you answered the phone, did the paperwork in the porcelain library, yelled at the kids to be quiet, etc. If so, that becomes part of the definition of DVR.

Now that I've embraced the DVR technology, I've also replaced almost every non-DVR receiver in my home. I want the ability to pause and rewind live TV everywhere in my receivers. Of course, I record all the things "I watch", yet the TV is nearly always on if we're awake, playing news, sports, cartoons if the grandkids are here. Especially with the news and sports, when the background catches my attention about something I am interested in, I back it up and listen from the beginning.

If the DVR did not let me back up, I'd have to consider some hodge-podge to receive satellite signals and buffer live TV. Yet, I would still need a DVRs to merely do record and playback.

So in a Digital Video Receiver/Recorder, live TV is a core feature as is pause and trickplay of live TV. That was one of the original selling features and still just as valid today.

Now, about Dual Live buffering. Core feature? Maybe. It is nearly standard, as it exists on most (nearly all?) dual tuner DVRs today. Are there any single tuner DVRs now? Has also dual tuners become a standard core feature?

So perhaps if DLB is not yet standard as a core feature, it seems that competitive pressure will make it such soon.

How much longer will the current non-DVR receiver last? As a sold item, probably not a whole lot longer. Yes, they will exist in the field for another 15 years, yet all new ones will very likely have the ability to buffer live TV and trickplay for the length of time the memory allows.

(How many of us have wanted to jumpback in a movie theatre? I did, especially right after I got used to DVRs.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
> Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO


This is just a silly arguement. You seem to have an excuse for any feature that the Directv lacks. Maybe it is not a "core feature" for you, but the overhwhelming majority of users find it be a useful feature. But Directv advertises:

"Media Share capable: Listen to music and view photos stored on your Intel® Viiv™ processor technology-based PC.

Take advantage of DIRECTV interactive features like DIRECTV Active™. Get weather information, lottery results and horoscopes onscreen. "

So you can get your horoscope but not switch tuners?

DLB is a feature that many users want. What difference does it make if it is not a "core feature" of a DVR?


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## rydertaylor

The reason the DLB feature is so important to directv DVR owners. They want Directv to be the best. If you ask anyone that own a tivo. DLB fearture makes your television go to the next level. That why I'm copying/paste my letter and mailing it today.Just the passion in this thread should tell you how important this feature is DBSTalking fans.


----------



## ATARI

From the dual tuner section of the DVR topic in WikiPedia:

"The main use for this feature is the capability to record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching a previously recorded one."

So, score 1 for Earl.

But, that doesn't change that fact that I and many others would still like this feature.

Providing air conditioning is not the core function of an automobile, but it sure is nice to have.


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## ToddinVA

JBernardK said:


> This is just a silly arguement. You seem to have an excuse for any feature that the Directv lacks. Maybe it is not a "core feature" for you, but the overhwhelming majority of users find it be a useful feature. But Directv advertises:
> 
> "Media Share capable: Listen to music and view photos stored on your Intel® Viiv™ processor technology-based PC.
> 
> Take advantage of DIRECTV interactive features like DIRECTV Active™. Get weather information, lottery results and horoscopes onscreen. "
> 
> So you can get your horoscope but not switch tuners?
> 
> DLB is a feature that many users want. What difference does it make if it is not a "core feature" of a DVR?


Good points. Who on earth has a Viiv PC? Almost no one. lol

As for the Active channel, does anyone actually use that? It's so slow that it's pretty much useless. What if the time and effort that went into that went into DLB first? We'd have had it a year ago...


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## James Long

ATARI said:


> From the dual tuner section of the DVR topic in WikiPedia:
> 
> "The main use for this feature is the capability to record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching a previously recorded one."


Hang on a minute ...
Fixed:
"The main use for this feature is the capability to pause two live programs at the same time. One can also record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching previously recorded programming."​
Wikipedia is so easy to edit. 
(Just kidding, no edit done.)


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## Que

A must have! 2797 77.59%
Don't really care about it. 177 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 631 17.50%
Voters: 3605. 

Replies 2,760
Views 141,521


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## Earl Bonovich

ToddinVA said:


> Obviously because it made no sense for DVR that's supposed to run 24/7.


And again... the point that just because it is there on other systems... doesn't necessarily mean it should be on EVERY system.


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## Tom Robertson

Indeed, I'd like to have a power button that I know cleanly shutdown the system. I don't like pulling the plug on an active hard drive.

But wait, this is about DLBs. Yes, they are needed too. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> This is just a silly arguement. You seem to have an excuse for any feature that the Directv lacks. Maybe it is not a "core feature" for you, but the overhwhelming majority of users find it be a useful feature. But Directv advertises:
> 
> "Media Share capable: Listen to music and view photos stored on your Intel® Viiv™ processor technology-based PC.
> 
> Take advantage of DIRECTV interactive features like DIRECTV Active™. Get weather information, lottery results and horoscopes onscreen. "
> 
> So you can get your horoscope but not switch tuners?
> 
> DLB is a feature that many users want. What difference does it make if it is not a "core feature" of a DVR?


Why is it a silly argument?

There is no excuse there... plain and simple... can't make it much clearer.
DirecTV made the choice NOT to have DLB on THEIR platform.....

We can argue all day on what is a core feature to a DVR...

It doesn't make a difference... but the argument on why some find it so important and others don't.

Some people have tried to make the point that it is UTMOST CRITICAL that their DVR has DLB... which would mean that it is a core function to them.

My argument, and IMHO... that is not a core function...

AKA... part of a discussion about the importance of said feature.

ANY AND ALL features on a unit, are part of their unit... and it makes that unit.... what it is... Media Share, DoD, DLB, Skip, Slip, Series Link, AutoRecord, ect.... they are all features... which a consumer needs to evaluate in their purchase.

It makes no difference if it is a core feature or not..... 
Some customers want DLB... but it is not there...

You all want the reason on why it is not there... but yet, when ideas are kicked around on why it is not there.... it is defending DirecTV...

If you don't want to discuss the lack of DLB... then what do you want to do..... It is a two part discussion... if you want to discuss why it should be there... you have to be willing to discuss why it isn't...


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## Earl Bonovich

ToddinVA said:


> Good points. Who on earth has a Viiv PC? Almost no one. lol
> 
> As for the Active channel, does anyone actually use that? It's so slow that it's pretty much useless. What if the time and effort that went into that went into DLB first? We'd have had it a year ago...


As again for the ViiV... from day one... 3rd party "Free" media servers worked with the feature, in fact... some of them worked significantly better then the official "ViiV"

The ViiV was a COMMERCIALLY available/supported media server... 
That had another larger company promoting it.

There are people that daily go into Active.

Active is just an interactive JAVA ish page that comes in over the SAT... same active page pretty much on all interactive enabled systems...

So not much work went into Active page, that was specific to any of the DVRs...


----------



## MikeR7

kanderna said:


> How is one button not user friendly?
> 
> Oh, on second read realized you meant the process of getting both tuners on the right channels. But still... not sure how that process becomes easier: type in the channel, hit "2nd tuner button," type in channel. All set.


That's not how I was taught here. :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> So other manufacturers chose to clone TiVo and DirecTV didn't? That confuses me. Cloning something usually indicates that it is something of value, or else it wouldn't be copied. The product baseline then evolves as new features are added to what is considered the unit that everyone wants. To scrap the baseline and move off in an independent direction means that one either hates the baseline for some reason, or thinks that they can corner the market with other features.


DirecTV didn't find value in CLOANING TiVo... and I think that is the #1 mistake users made in comming over to the DVR+ platform... they all assumed it would do everything TiVo did... and then more...

That isn't the case, that was never going to be the case.

------

I really wish it was easy to interview the ENTIRE DVR user base... to find out how many people: 1) Know about the concept of DLB... 2) Actually use it.

We are all in a very different world here....
We know about the feature.... We know how we would use it in our personal usage habits...

I know when people ask me about upgrading their TiVo... I mention DLB... more often or not... I get a puzzled look on their face... they didn't even know it was there, or they didn't use it... (a few have missed it)


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## boltjames

NickD said:


> The problem is that DLB did become a feature, and obviously from this thread one that is missed by many people.


Its understood that some users took a liking to this accidental "feature". I have a similar story.

Back in the early 90's, I used to hang my clothes on hangars in the rear window of a 1988 Acura Legend. Would crack the window, put the hangar in there, and close the window. The pressure of the closed window and the window seal on the hangar kept it securely in place. It was awesome. My whole family used this feature.

By the time I was ready for my next car, a 1995 Acura Legend, they decided that too many kids were getting their heads caught in the rear windows and they put in this sensor that sensed when something was stuck between the glass and the window seal. Now when we put our hangars in there, the window would keep popping open.

We mourned the loss of the WHP (Window Hangar Pinch) for years, but learned to understand that Acura didn't do anything wrong; they weren't expected to maintain a "feature" they never intended.

If any of you DLB activists would like to get involved with Acura and their "bring back WHP" cause, PM me and I'll set you up with the right people. I don't drive Acura any more, nor do I hang my clothes in the car, but I feel them on this issue.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

MikeR7 said:


> When I got my HR10-250 from E-Bay last summer to find out what all the fuss was about, I searched the manual for at least 20 minutes trying to find out how to use the DLB feature. Guess what, it is not in the manual. :lol:


I discovered DLB by accident; hit the 'down' key on my Sony T-60 and saw that it jumped to another show with a built-up recording memory.

It came in handy, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if it returned, but there are so many other awesome features in the HR20 that this pales in comparison.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Its understood that some users took a liking to this accidental "feature". I have a similar story.
> 
> Back in the early 90's, I used to hang my clothes on hangars in the rear window of a 1988 Acura Legend. Would crack the window, put the hangar in there, and close the window. The pressure of the closed window and the window seal on the hangar kept it securely in place. It was awesome. My whole family used this feature.
> 
> By the time I was ready for my next car, a 1995 Acura Legend, they decided that too many kids were getting their heads caught in the rear windows and they put in this sensor that sensed when something was stuck between the glass and the window seal. Now when we put our hangars in there, the window would keep popping open.
> 
> We mourned the loss of the WHP (Window Hangar Pinch) for years, but learned to understand that Acura didn't do anything wrong; they weren't expected to maintain a "feature" they never intended.
> 
> If any of you DLB activists would like to get involved with Acura and their "bring back WHP" cause, PM me and I'll set you up with the right people. I don't drive Acura any more, nor do I hang my clothes in the car, but I feel them on this issue.
> 
> BJ


But DLB hasn't killed or injured any children! You kill me Bolt, you really do... :lol:

BTW, didn't your Acura have a coat hook in it?? A little feature that most people probably don't even use, but it's found in most cars.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well you can pause live TV... as that is a feature of their box.
> What if it wasn't there? Would you still not be able to record.
> 
> Is pausing LIVE TV a critical core function of a DVR?
> 
> I would still say that isn't a critical core function... As the DVR would still record my shows and allow me to watch them when I wanted to.
> 
> There are not many function of a DVR, that I would put in the category of "core/critical" function.... every other feature on top of that is nice, and does add to the funciton of that particular DVR.
> 
> And does make THAT particular DVR, what it is... and provide comparison points to those making choices based on what the units can do.
> 
> ----
> 
> As for the power button.....
> It is there on just about every other piece of equipment, so why not on the TiVo?
> 
> I mean that is the argument that is used often for DLB... it is there on every other DVR... so why not on the DVR+ platform?


My DirecTIVOs have power buttons. Regarding pausing live TV, it *IS* heavily advertised as a major feature of DVRs; therefore, it can logically be called a "core feature."


----------



## afrosales

inkahauts said:


> I am always curious for people that are this passionate about DLB. What do you watch live so often on tv that you need DLB? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand the reasons people want it so bad... I can't stand watching anything live anymore unless it a really big sports program, like the suprebowl....


It's funny, I never really thought about "how" I watch TV, except for the last few days. Like someone else said, the bottom line is that I used the DLB function every day. So did my wife. At some point, you're tired of what's saved, or there are repeats that got recorded, so you watch live. When the commercial comes you pause and flip around and see what's out there. The DLB made that effortless and mindless. Having to use a workaround and "set it up" removes the mindless aspect and makes TV watching less enjoyable.

The whole point might be moot, however, since I am about to lose all HD on my HR10. As much as DTV has disappointed me lately, they have a long way to go to match the pain caused by teh cable companies.


----------



## Monduj1

I believe the debate over whether DBL is a "core" feature or not is moot. It is a feature, sorely missing from DirecTV units.

I haven't read through all 111 pages of this thread, but was hoping some one could tell me whether DirecTV has provided an official response to why DBL is not offered. I mean surely someone from DirecTV keeps an eye on these types of forums, not to mention their own Technical Help Forum, and is aware of the fervent outcry for DBL, right? I mean we're talking about a topic that continues to be actively and passionately discussed two years later. Anything?

I am still using two DirecTivo units, non-HD. I would like to make the upgrade to HD, but have held off due 100% to the lack of DBL on DirecTV's offerings. In fact, I continue to suffer through the frequent reboots on my Philip's receiver (due to DirecTV software not playing nice with Tivo) simply because the R15 doesn't include DBL.

So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Monduj1 said:


> So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?


No, and they probably never will issue a press release on why they decided not include DLB as a feature in their first DVR+ system 27 months ago...

As official as it is going to get... DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in THEIR DVR platform.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Monduj1 said:


> I believe the debate over whether DBL is a "core" feature or not is moot. It is a feature, sorely missing from DirecTV units.
> 
> I haven't read through all 111 pages of this thread, but was hoping some one could tell me whether DirecTV has provided an official response to why DBL is not offered. I mean surely someone from DirecTV keeps an eye on these types of forums, not to mention their own Technical Help Forum, and is aware of the fervent outcry for DBL, right? I mean we're talking about a topic that continues to be actively and passionately discussed two years later. Anything?
> 
> I am still using two DirecTivo units, non-HD. I would like to make the upgrade to HD, but have held off due 100% to the lack of DBL on DirecTV's offerings. In fact, I continue to suffer through the frequent reboots on my Philip's receiver (due to DirecTV software not playing nice with Tivo) simply because the R15 doesn't include DBL.
> 
> So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?


Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

If one accepts the verbal communications given to Earl and myself as "official" [enough], then yes. 

If one is expecting a press release, I don't believe one will come on an issue of this nature. Very, very rarely do I see a press release from companies detailing of why features are not included. :eek2:

If one is expecting a statement thru a press agency, is there something fundamentally different from a "highly placed official at DIRECTV" telling Ben Drawbaugh at Engadget vs. same person telling Earl or me? (I picked Ben because he is a class act and nice guy.)  Please, I do want to understand how you might perceive a difference. I do not want to sound as if I'm dismissing you or your perceptions.

Anyway the "Official Answer" that has been communicated to Earl and I is that DIRECTV has chosen to include other features first. Features DIRECTV feels are more important to the DVR experience than DLB--right now.

Part of the answer does include comments "we understand DLB is an important feature to many people", "we are considering DLB", etc.

I have not been told "it will never happen." I have been given expectations that it likely will not be soon.

I hope this answers your questions. And I understand that reviewing a 110 page thread is difficult. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## JBernardK

Tom Robertson said:


> Anyway the "Official Answer" that has been communicated to Earl and I is that DIRECTV has chosen to include other features first. Features DIRECTV feels are more important to the DVR experience than DLB--right now.


Did they say what those other features are?


----------



## Tom Robertson

JBernardK said:


> Did they say what those other features are?


Some and you can find discussions of the next likely features in the various threads. I just can't confirm what I've been told or they won't tell me anything else. Basically, as soon as I am given clearance to say something, I do, as I'm sure Earl does too.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## chuckg

I have just come from the R16-300 thread. I am impressed. So I searched around to see if it had DLB. Apparently not. So I will stick with the Series 2.

HiDef. Without DLB. Not likely. DLB trumps every other feature on a DVR except List Guide. Including being able to set up future recordings via the List Guide.


----------



## raw121

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, and they probably never will issue a press release on why they decided not include DLB as a feature in their first DVR+ system 27 months ago...
> 
> As official as it is going to get... DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in THEIR DVR platform.


This doesn't make a lot of sense if you look at the numbers at the top of the page. It seems that less 5% of the people don't care about it. A lot of people would like it and a lot more would REALLY like it. How many companies would ignore a focus group that came back in favor of something so overwhelmingly? It is not like this is an impossible or an unrealistic feature.

I know you'll say that we are not the typical users, but we must have some value to them or this site wouldn't have the access that it does. It is just a contradiction that I can't wrap my head around since I have been here. I have started to post to this thread many times about this but I keep thinking it would become clear to me at some point. It hasn't. Done with my little vent.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

If you look at the numbers as compared to the entire population of DVR+ owners... that number is a tiny fraction of the entire population.

We are "not" a focus group. We are a pretty specific nitch of users... that have valuable input... but in true focus groups, they are selected with various factors so the results of that focus group can be applied to the entire population.

This is also a poll that has been around for over a year... that just anyone could vote... and a lot of the voting was when people were coming straight from another system that had DLB.... What if we reset the poll.. .and revoted today...

We have plenty of value... but we are not the bigger picture.
We are just one of several different points of input and information for DireTV.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you look at the numbers as compared to the entire population of DVR+ owners... that number is a tiny fraction of the entire population.
> 
> We are "not" a focus group. We are a pretty specific nitch of users... that have valuable input... but in true focus groups, they are selected with various factors so the results of that focus group can be applied to the entire population.
> 
> This is also a poll that has been around for over a year... that just anyone could vote... and a lot of the voting was when people were coming straight from another system that had DLB.... What if we reset the poll.. .and revoted today...
> 
> We have plenty of value... but we are not the bigger picture.
> We are just one of several different points of input and information for DireTV.


Can we have a poll in which the thread itself is closed?

No posts, just votes?

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MicroBeta said:


> Can we have a poll in which the thread itself is closed?
> 
> No posts, just votes?
> 
> Mike


Sorry... the forum doesn't support such an option.


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you look at the numbers as compared to the entire population of DVR+ owners... that number is a tiny fraction of the entire population.
> 
> This is also a poll that has been around for over a year... that just anyone could vote... and a lot of the voting was when people were coming straight from another system that had DLB.... What if we reset the poll.. .and revoted today...


Earl, I think re-setting the poll would be a good idea for many reasons:

1. Your point about it being skewed by HR10 loyalists who during the past year were basically abandoned by D* for another DVR, voting early without giving the HR20 a fair chance. Their points of view may have changed. I know mine did. Was a violent supporter of Tivo, thought I couldn't live without it, until I gave the HR20 a week and realized it was a better product.

2. It's 2008 and the D* playing field has changed. With millions more subscribers and almost 100 HD channels, it's very different than 2007 when HD meant 12 channels. DBS has a larger infusion of new "average" TV users and not the power niche group that dominated DBS while the Tivo transition was just underway. Would be interesting to see what this new mix of the DBS community thinks now.

3. When this poll was first started, it wasn't a fair fight. The HR20 wasn't a mature product, D* had very little HD content, and Tivo fandom was at an all time peak. Now with the HR20 being mature and, in many ways, a superior product to the HR10, it would be interesting to see how things would play out now. Are more people okay with DLB's removal in light of the other array of great features? Would love to find out.

4. The amount of posts and page views make this seem to be a much bigger deal than it really is. Newbs who know nothing of the HR10 vs. HR20 battles would think that something's terribly wrong with D* and it's DVR when it's really not. It's a nostalgic remnant of a war that's long over, and if you weren't a member who went to battle it's a bit confusing.

5. Most importantly, it may show that there are far fewer D* owners in DBS that actually care about DLB any more and may constructively show those involved that as time changes, people change and that they too need to be a bit more flexible.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ToddinVA said:


> So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again!


Absolutely not...

The "results" are over an 18 month period of time.

And ones vote 18 months ago... may or may not reflect what their current opinion was.

If you go back and look at my review of the R15 27ish months ago...
You'll find that I too was disapointed that DLB was there...

But then I realized how often I didn't use it... and came to the conclusion that it is not a "must have" or even a big deal for my viewing pattern.

So yes... on the first day... I would say it was a must have need.
But now... not so much...


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Part of the answer does include comments "we understand DLB is an important feature to many people", "we are considering DLB", etc.
> 
> I have not been told "it will never happen."
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


As long as those quotes are true, then there is always hope; and there is, of course, nothing wrong with hope. It keeps people going, gives them something to live for.

Kinda like being a Chicago Cubs fan.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> DirecTV didn't find value in CLOANING TiVo... and I think that is the #1 mistake users made in comming over to the DVR+ platform... they all assumed it would do everything TiVo did... and then more...
> 
> That isn't the case, that was never going to be the case.


Why wouldn't one assume that the HR2x series would evolve the HR10 to a new level? Many product lines do just that (i.e. my Denon AVR series A/V receiver; new features are added to the present baseline, while the baseline is preserved). When a product (TiVo) became the default synonym for a DVR in the lexicon, why not assume that it would be utilized as a baseline towards evolutionary new features?

I didn't come to the HR2x series platform by choice; it was the only way to enjoy the HD programming that was to be offered by DirecTV and still utilize a DVR. At first, paying $300 for a leased unit that was still in beta test for software made me wonder&#8230; if only DirecTV had used the HR10 as a baseline, would these difficulties exist?

If TiVo was dismissed as a business partner due to their future stability as a company, fine, but to dismiss their technology as not being the populist baseline is incorrect.


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again!


Well then, what's the harm in resetting it to zero? If you're correct, we should have the same results in a year's time, right?

I'd argue that the vast majority of those who voted in favor of DLB aren't active members anymore, vented when their Tivo's were abandoned, and now are living happily with their HR20's.

Let's reset the poll and the thread count and see what happens. I bet it will surprise you.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> Why wouldn't one assume that the HR2x series would evolve the HR10 to a new level?


It did, and that's what's so disappointing in the reaction to DLB.

Get a piece of paper and jot down all that was lost from the HR10 and all that has been gained in the HR20 and it's not even close. No contest.

You should bow before the altar of Native Mode, or the speedy menus, or the softkeys, or the 'stop' button, or the HD guide markers, or the 90 minute buffer, or the quiet operation, or any of the other major features that the HR10 lacked.

DLB was never a Tivo "feature". It was a happy accident. A strange occurrence where two-tuner recording had a bit of a hack that allowed a user to do something unintended.

Focus on the upside of all the good new HR20 features; don't focus at all on the HR10's non-feature that some have adopted as if it were a lost and abused puppy. That's not what the Tivo founding fathers intended.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> It did, and that's what's so disappointing in the reaction to DLB.
> 
> Get a piece of paper and jot down all that was lost from the HR10 and all that has been gained in the HR20 and it's not even close. No contest.
> 
> You should bow before the altar of Native Mode, or the speedy menus, or the softkeys, or the 'stop' button, or the HD guide markers, or the 90 minute buffer, or the quiet operation, or any of the other major features that the HR10 lacked.
> 
> BJ


You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection? The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance? I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference. HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn't differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did. The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable. My HR10 doesn't sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.

The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.


----------



## Doug Brott

chuckg said:


> HiDef. Without DLB. Not likely. DLB trumps every other feature on a DVR except List Guide. Including being able to set up future recordings via the List Guide.


At this juncture, I'd have to say (1) recording/playback and (2) HD are the most important features of the HR20 series. DLB would be nice, but I'm doing fine without it.


----------



## James Long

The new voters on the poll are still trending at the same basic percentage as the original voters. I don't believe it would make that much of a difference to vote again.

It certainly wouldn't make a difference to DirecTV. If they were going to respond to this 'petition' they would have done it already. It is pretty clear that they will add DLB _if_ and when they want to.


----------



## BigLars

boltjames said:


> Well then, what's the harm in resetting it to zero? If you're correct, we should have the same results in a year's time, right?
> 
> I'd argue that the vast majority of those who voted in favor of DLB aren't active members anymore, vented when their Tivo's were abandoned, and now are living happily with their HR20's.
> 
> Let's reset the poll and the thread count and see what happens. I bet it will surprise you.
> 
> BJ


That's the nature of polls - say your peace and move on. Threads on polls, however - those are for the hardcore.

I suspect a few might now fall into the 'easy come, easy go' category but most who were passionate to find this thread and vote (and then stick with it 100+ pages) would still feel the same way today. I do, anyway. DLB was the one non-core feature on the HR10 that I (and my wife) used everyday. And that was before my kids began monopolizing the single buffer with Sponge Bob and Zoey 101 (and often the other tuner as well, now that they've discovered how to scroll trough the guide and make little red "R"s everywhere).

I realize my meager postings aren't going to bring DLB back but they are mildly cathartic. I'm quite happy with my HR20, and getting happier with every update. But that doesn't diminish my desire for DLB.

Larry


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> The new voters on the poll are still trending at the same basic percentage as the original voters. I don't believe it would make that much of a difference to vote again.


I know that some would change there vote today but, I want to list all the stats I have made in this post. When did you vote?.......... I think James is right.

03-31-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1007 74.76%
> Don't really care about it. 85 6.31%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 255 18.93%
> 
> Voters: 1347


04-23-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1117 75.07%
> Don't really care about it. 94	6.32%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 277 18.62%
> Voters: 1488


6-11-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1253 75.48%
> Don't really care about it. 105 6.33%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 302 18.19%
> Voters: 1660.


07-05-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1326 75.56%
> Don't really care about it. 109 6.21%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 320 18.23%
> Voters: 1755


08-02-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1592 75.74%
> Don't really care about it. 121 5.76%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 389 18.51%
> Voters: 2102.
> 
> Replies Views
> 
> 1,138 63,976


09-07-07


Que said:


> A must have! 1840 76.16%
> Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
> Voters: 2416
> 
> Replies 1,437
> Views 78,583


10-01-07


Que said:


> A must have! *2057 76.64%*
> Don't really care about it. 142 5.29%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 485 18.07%
> Voters: 2684.
> 
> Replies *1,590*
> Views * 87,969*


11-20-07


Que said:


> A must have! 2444 77.27%
> Don't really care about it. 154 4.87%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 565 17.86%
> Voters: 3163
> 
> Replies- 1,921
> Views- 108,017


12-08-07


Que said:


> A must have! 2500 77.26%
> Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
> Voters: 3236.
> 
> Replies- 2,027
> Views- 113,872


----------



## cartrivision

Dr. Booda said:


> You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection? The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance? I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference. HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn't differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did. The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable. My HR10 doesn't sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.
> 
> The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.


That's the major problem with the people setting the priorities of the DVR software development team. They are squandering valuable resources developing substantial functions such as media sharing that may be nice little additions to a DVR, but it ignores the reality that there is very little demand for such features which will go completely unused by the overwhelming majority of the HR20 users.

The HR20 development effort needs a major refocusing of priorities, because their present course of actions is often very questionable.


----------



## James Long

Que said:


> I know that some would change there vote today but, I want to list all the stats I have made in this post. When did you vote?.......... I think James is right.


I think so too ... or as I said two weeks ago:


James Long said:


> That works (somewhat) if you look at the change. It doesn't show the change in opinion of those who have already voted - but:
> 
> 9-18 to 11-20: 639 voters - 80% Must Have, 2.5% don't care.
> 11-20 to 12-12: 131 voters - 78% Must Have, 6.8% don't care.
> 12-12 to 1-11: 168 voters - 79% Must Have, 4.2% don't care.
> Since 1-11: 39 voters - 89% Must Have, no new "don't care".


Since 1-11: 148 voters - 82% Must Have, 4.7% don't care.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> It certainly wouldn't make a difference to DirecTV. If they were going to respond to this 'petition' they would have done it already. It is pretty clear that they will add DLB _if_ and when they want to.


Well then, how about we just eliminate the poll and lock the sticky as a simple informative message to HR10 converts?

The idea, as has been explained to me, was to have one sticky that has one basic theme for newbs and HR10 converts so they don't ask the question repeatedly on the main board.

If D* knows about the wishes of this fraction of the user base, there doesn't need to be an appeal to them any more. No poll needed. They know.

If newbs know that DLB doesn't exist and won't exist on an HR20, there doesn't need to be an active thread any more. No venting of frustration by this angry fraction needed.

As such, a closed sticky with a subject line that reads:

*IMPORTANT: HR10 Tivo Owners - Please Read About Dual Buffer Jumping On The HR20/1*

...and a post that reads:

*The Dual Live Buffer (DLB) that allowed you to jump between two live shows without either of them losing their 30 minute buffer is not available on the HR20/1.

Instead, D* has supplied a single 90 minute buffer.

D* is aware that some subscribers want this feature and it is possible that it may be addressed on a future release.

Please do not post on the subject on DBS Talk. We will inform the community on any new information via a subscription to this thread. Thanks.*

This way, no more whining about the "feature" being missing, no more poll that D* doesn't care about, no more high page views that may scare off a new D* subscriber into thinking there's a major flaw in the DVR.

DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.

Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.
> 
> Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.
> 
> BJ


Users needs to ask themselves, what are they expecting from DBSTalk.
Do you want a place where Ideas can be discussed and discussion can occur (on any topic). Where you have the ability to NOT ready or paricipate in discussions.
Or should it be come a specialized wiki-pedia type site.

And that the staff has discussed many different options for this particular topic, and this single sticky thread still comes out on top to meet our goals as a forum, and still allow discussion on it.


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> Well then, how about we just eliminate the poll and lock the sticky as a simple informative message to HR10 converts?
> 
> The idea, as has been explained to me, was to have one sticky that has one basic theme for newbs and HR10 converts so they don't ask the question repeatedly on the main board.
> 
> If D* knows about the wishes of this fraction of the user base, there doesn't need to be an appeal to them any more. No poll needed. They know.
> 
> If newbs know that DLB doesn't exist and won't exist on an HR20, there doesn't need to be an active thread any more. No venting of frustration by this angry fraction needed.
> 
> As such, a closed sticky with a subject line that reads:
> 
> *IMPORTANT: HR10 Tivo Owners - Please Read About Dual Buffer Jumping On The HR20/1*
> 
> ...and a post that reads:
> 
> *The Dual Live Buffer (DLB) that allowed you to jump between two live shows without either of them losing their 30 minute buffer is not available on the HR20/1.
> 
> Instead, D* has supplied a single 90 minute buffer.
> 
> D* is aware that some subscribers want this feature and it is possible that it may be addressed on a future release.
> 
> Please do not post on the subject on DBS Talk. We will inform the community on any new information via a subscription to this thread. Thanks.*
> 
> This way, no more whining about the "feature" being missing, no more poll that D* doesn't care about, no more high page views that may scare off a new D* subscriber into thinking there's a major flaw in the DVR.
> 
> DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.
> 
> Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.
> 
> BJ


BJ, I really don't understand your purpose here. This entire forum is a DISCUSSION forum. You like to say that this thread/poll make no sense and its nothing except a thread about whining. I beg to differ. Over the last few days alone, the discussion about DLB has evolved into discussions about future features, the need for the existing features DirecTV has implemented, what user 'definitions' are of a DVR in general and what features should be considered standard in a DVR. I find all of those discussions to be very worthwhile and one of the exact reasons I joined this forum. Its highly unlikely that anyone here is a child, so most people should be old enough to think for themselves and make decisions on their own.

So I ask you to please, as Tom, Earl, etc. has indicated to people in the past in this thread, if you have a beef with how the board is moderated send a PM to one of the moderators and discuss it with them there. Thank you.


----------



## boltjames

*tiger2005 BJ, I really don't understand your purpose here. This entire forum is a DISCUSSION forum. You like to say that this thread/poll make no sense and its nothing except a thread about whining. I beg to differ. *

My purpose here is to discuss and interact with others too, but I come from a different angle. This particular thread is filled with gearheads, experts in the technology, and with an agenda. I think I represent the silent majority of non-gearheads. People that just want to watch D* in the best quality possible and have a few questions. I should have jumped from the HR10 to the HR20 a year ago but didn't because of the propoganda and negativity over at the Tivo Forums, and it saddens me to see other innocent newbs potentially being misled here by a perceived problem that doesn't really exist.

*Over the last few days alone, the discussion about DLB has evolved into discussions about future features, the need for the existing features DirecTV has implemented, what user 'definitions' are of a DVR in general and what features should be considered standard in a DVR. I find all of those discussions to be very worthwhile and one of the exact reasons I joined this forum.*

And there are plenty of existing threads in which to carry out this type of non-DLB conversation, so I fail to see how this one sticky needs to exist for this general DVR dialog.

*So I ask you to please, as Tom, Earl, etc. has indicated to people in the past in this thread, if you have a beef with how the board is moderated send a PM to one of the moderators and discuss it with them there. Thank you.*

The conversation on DLB evolved yesterday into a discussion on the purpose of this thread itself, including the moderators talking openly about its existence and the necessity for the poll. I chimed in on that open conversation as did other posters. Saying I have a beef with the moderators or how this thread is moderated is unfair.

BJ


----------



## tiger2005

cartrivision said:


> That's the major problem with the people setting the priorities of the DVR software development team. They are squandering valuable resources developing substantial functions such as media sharing that may be nice little additions to a DVR, but it ignores the reality that there is very little demand for such features which will go completely unused by the overwhelming majority of the HR20 users.
> 
> The HR20 development effort needs a major refocusing of priorities, because their present course of actions is often very questionable.


+1!!

The problem I see with all of that is that the features they've implemented, with the exception of media sharing, all are designed to generate additional revenue streams for DirecTV. That seems to be DirecTV's number one priority in relation to new features on this box. Until the people in control of the platform features think that DLB is causing them to lose revenue, I don't see it being implemented. Hopefully Dish Network's new marketing campaign about their top-of-the-line DVR's will cause those same people to realize there is alot of room for additional feature development on the DirecTV platform outside of items that generate additional revenue beyond subs.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tiger2005 said:


> +1!!
> 
> The problem I see with all of that is that the features they've implemented, with the exception of media sharing, all are designed to generate additional revenue streams for DirecTV. That seems to be DirecTV's number one priority in relation to new features on this box. Until the people in control of the platform features think that DLB is causing them to lose revenue, I don't see it being implemented. Hopefully Dish Network's new marketing campaign about their top-of-the-line DVR's will cause those same people to realize there is alot of room for additional feature development on the DirecTV platform outside of items that generate additional revenue beyond subs.


So all the other featuers are useless to everyone? 
They have no value.

DoD is free, but adds PPV opportunities 
Mediashare is free
Remote Booking is free
All the other features added to the box... where are they charging for those?

There isn't a single feature on the DVR+ platform, that you need to pay DirecTV any extra fee for, past the $5.99 (for the account) DVR Fee.

In your signature you have:
"The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time"

The same could be said for DLB... 
Given that there are a LOT of people that still find a lot of value in the DVR+ platform, without DLB.... would DLB just be another attempt at satisifying some of the people?

It is a feature... just like every other feature on the box.

The quote you included... regarding developers/limited resources....

At least in my case... I get a TON more value out of DoD and Mediashare, then I would with DLB... and I am sure I am not alone.

As you (those that need to have the critical DLB function) are not alone as well.

At the end of the day... this is DirecTV's DVR... They want the functions in that system that are best for THEIR plans and THEIR direction.

As for your Dish Network comment....

Did you notice their "target"... it isn't DirecTV's DVR... It is TiVo... which is a double edge attack, as they are targetting cable/fiber based customers...
Not necessarily the DirecTV DVR customers.


----------



## boltjames

*Dr. Booda You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection? *

I have owned two HR20's since June of last year and have never had an issue of 5 second channel changes and HDMI box crashing. The channel change would be impacted by the speed of the TV, not the box itself. Not sure what the HDMI problem is. Perhaps you have a defective unit.

*The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance? *

Still significantly faster than the Tivo's menus on the HR10.

*I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference. *

For the non-gearhead, watching a recorded program and needing to figure out that "Live TV" is the same thing as hitting "Stop" was a point of HR10 frustration, at least for my wife, kids, and visiting in-laws who didn't know how to stop the recording.

*HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn't differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did. *

Again, an advance over the HR10. I can, at a glance, see which programs are in HD and which aren't without having to navigate to a show and read the fine print in the info banner.

*The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable.*

Point taken. But at least we don't have one 30 minute buffer. At least the one we have is enough to capture 1 complete movie, half a football game, or 3 sitcoms.

*My HR10 doesn't sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.*

My HR10 was really loud, as were my 4 Sony T-60's. I find the HR20 is the quietest DVR I've ever owned.

*The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.*

I don't use those features either, but it does show that the product is moving forward and can morph into other purposes.

BJ


----------



## dennisj00

I've thrown my $.02 in before on this thread and am still a big advocate of DLB -- regardless of the fact that I added an HR20 in the bedroom yesterday to replace a standalone Tivo. (in preparation of MRV???) and yes, DTV sent me a HR20 without asking specifically.

One use of the DLB that I SORELY miss is the ability to quickly check out the other tuner - another program - without the risk of dumping the main buffer that I'm watching. It was nice to check a program in the listing or see if it were something I should record and return to my main program.

I currently use the DLB workaround to watch two programs at the same time - yes, there are a number of times that I watch LIVE (or close to live) TV and wish I didn't have to set up one as a recording and hold my breath everytime I switch that I don't lose the live buffer.

I challenge anyone to come up with a workaround to see the second tuner without fumbling through a temporary recording. On my T-60 it's one click of either the 'LIVE TV" button or the down arrow.

I'd easily settle for two 45 minute buffers (or any split of the 90) that switch with the down arrow. Is that so hard to do? And worth not getting the Tivo converts?
(I know right now demand for the hr20 isn't an issue)


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> DLB was never a Tivo "feature". It was a happy accident. A strange occurrence where two-tuner recording had a bit of a hack that allowed a user to do something unintended.
> 
> BJ


It was not an accident- there are 2 independent tuners and one can switch between them. Why is that "strange" or a "hack" or "unintended?"

It's a simple concept- 2 *independent* tuners in the box and the ability to view either one. The DVR+ tuners seem to be *dependent* ones, as you have to start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Users needs to ask themselves, what are they expecting from DBSTalk.
> Do you want a place where Ideas can be discussed and discussion can occur (on any topic). Where you have the ability to NOT ready or paricipate in discussions.
> Or should it be come a specialized wiki-pedia type site.
> 
> And that the staff has discussed many different options for this particular topic, and this single sticky thread still comes out on top to meet our goals as a forum, and still allow discussion on it.


Indeed. If BJ doesn't like it, he doesn't have to come here and act like he's speaking for everyone and DirecTV in saying that the thread should be closed. And by the way, no one ever said DLB was "never coming back," as BJ claims. Those who know have simply stated that it's just not #1 on DirecTV's priority list.

The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?


----------



## puffnstuff

I still want to know what the feature is that is going to make it apparent to us why they don't have DLB . Come on Earl please let us know , I have been reading this thread since day 1 when I was told it was coming . Then it was they are working to implement it . Then it will become apparent . Well it hasn't to me . So when will we ever know . I sure hope it's before I renew ! I love my HR's , but as said before in the thread , every extra that they include , I already have something else that does a way better job then the HR and that is crap . While I will say that DLB is not a core function of a DVR at least it's a function and not some poorly implemented extra's .


----------



## anubys

puffnstuff said:


> I still want to know what the feature is that is going to make it apparent to us why they don't have DLB . Come on Earl please let us know , I have been reading this thread since day 1 when I was told it was coming . Then it was they are working to implement it . Then it will become apparent . Well it hasn't to me . So when will we ever know . I sure hope it's before I renew ! I love my HR's , but as said before in the thread , every extra that they include , I already have something else that does a way better job then the HR and that is crap . While I will say that DLB is not a core function of a DVR at least it's a function and not some poorly implemented extra's .


it's been suggested -- and it's very plausible -- in this thread that said feature is the MRV

if that were the reason, I certainly am willing to wait for DLB...but would love to have both of them at some point (soon!  )...


----------



## jgriffin7

Green23 said:


> It was not an accident- there are 2 independent tuners and one can switch between them. Why is that "strange" or a "hack" or "unintended?"
> 
> It's a simple concept- 2 *independent* tuners in the box and the ability to view either one. The DVR+ tuners seem to be *dependent* ones, as you have to start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds.


Knowing both tuners are buffering all the time (if anyone doesn't know this, they need to read up), couldn't the ability to switch to the other without flushing the buffer be viewed as a bug fix??


----------



## puffnstuff

anubys said:


> it's been suggested -- and it's very plausible -- in this thread that said feature is the MRV
> 
> if that were the reason, I certainly am willing to wait for DLB...but would love to have both of them at some point (soon!  )...


I hope not , even though I think it is so they can push dod ( which is not ok either ) . As for MRV I don't understad the big deal . I mean I would love it and all . But with them waiting so long for it I don't need it anymore with e-sata and 3 HR's on 1 tv . Also I don't want to leave Directv but DLB is a deal breaker for me since every box I had before had DLB and that was what Directv got me use to . So if not soon I will just drop everything except for basic and up what I get on my cable box .


----------



## anubys

well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...

we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. If BJ doesn't like it, he doesn't have to come here and act like he's speaking for everyone and DirecTV in saying that the thread should be closed. And by the way, no one ever said DLB was "never coming back," as BJ claims. Those who know have simply stated that it's just not #1 on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?


Careful with the insinuations, please.

BJ would be the ONLY person from DIRECTV I've met that has such an agenda. I have spoken with several at CES, most are intimately involved with the project, and none has spoken with any amount of fervor against DLB. They all have been very interested in hearing what the customers think about DLB, not foisting their views upon me or others.

Again, DIRECTV has other features they have and want to continue to include first. And this was from a respectable consideration of DLB, not just a quick reaction.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## puffnstuff

anubys said:


> well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...
> 
> we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...


But I already have acces to 8 tuners and 3TB's of space plus whatever my cable box has . So with them taking so long with it I would think alot of people either , won't have access or want to set up a network or won't even care about it . I think the feature would mostly be used by people like us on the forum and as said in ths thread we are a niche goup . So I guess I am asking why is MRV so important when there are still issue's with core functions that need to be addressed first ? Why not work on DLB also ? Why keep people in the dark for so long ? Why no DLB in the first place ? Why are we here ? All answer's I guess I'll find out when I'm dead . Wait a minute can't you help with that Anubys ?


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> I have owned two HR20's since June of last year and have never had an issue of 5 second channel changes and HDMI box crashing. The channel change would be impacted by the speed of the TV, not the box itself. Not sure what the HDMI problem is. Perhaps you have a defective unit.
> 
> I don't use those features either, but it does show that the product is moving forward and can morph into other purposes.


I have had a Sharp Aquos LC-45GD6U hooked up to both the HR10 & HR2x for over three years now. The HR10 never had a problem with HDMI and neither does the HR2x with native off. However, native on has reeked havoc with my HDMI link ever since I first tried it 18 months ago. Maybe it's the TV, but other components I own don't have a problem.

I don't necessary need the DVR to morph into anything else; I just want it to record programs reliably and have a functional DLB. It should perform its core function flawlessly, and then bring on other things (DOD) if desired.

Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can't playback a program without having a critical error, then someone's priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.


----------



## tiger2005

Earl Bonovich said:


> So all the other featuers are useless to everyone?
> They have no value.
> 
> DoD is free, but adds PPV opportunities
> Mediashare is free
> Remote Booking is free
> All the other features added to the box... where are they charging for those?
> 
> There isn't a single feature on the DVR+ platform, that you need to pay DirecTV any extra fee for, past the $5.99 (for the account) DVR Fee.
> 
> In your signature you have:
> "The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time"
> 
> The same could be said for DLB...
> Given that there are a LOT of people that still find a lot of value in the DVR+ platform, without DLB.... would DLB just be another attempt at satisifying some of the people?
> 
> It is a feature... just like every other feature on the box.
> 
> The quote you included... regarding developers/limited resources....
> 
> At least in my case... I get a TON more value out of DoD and Mediashare, then I would with DLB... and I am sure I am not alone.
> 
> As you (those that need to have the critical DLB function) are not alone as well.
> 
> At the end of the day... this is DirecTV's DVR... They want the functions in that system that are best for THEIR plans and THEIR direction.
> 
> As for your Dish Network comment....
> 
> Did you notice their "target"... it isn't DirecTV's DVR... It is TiVo... which is a double edge attack, as they are targetting cable/fiber based customers...
> Not necessarily the DirecTV DVR customers.


Come on Earl, for how long is DoD going to be completely free? You're telling me DirecTV has NO plans to charge for DoD content?

Another complaint about DoD, 95% of the content available to us at this point is content already playing on the stations we receive. What's the difference between me searching for a movie, TV show, etc. and recording it via my regular station vs. downloading the movie? By the time a freakin' movie is complete downloading it'll be on that station again. I've used DoD a few times to download movies I think I'll watch, and some other shows I think I'll be interested in and for the most part I either never watch them or if I do I get bored and delete them. Also, where's the HD content? With all the added HD channels, it kinda makes the SD DoD content pretty useless IMO. I'd rather wait a week to see something I want to see in HD, than download the SD equivalent.

And related to Dish Network, so you're saying that Dish Network is targetting cable/FiOS customers only??? So you're saying they're not interested in getting customers to move over from DirecTV and they're just ignoring that competition? Assuming you're correct, isn't it much more plausible that they're targetting the #1 DVR manufacturer and ignoring the 'lesser' competition of DirecTV. I find it very hard for anyone to even compare the Dish DVR's to DirecTV's line. If it was even a fair comparison, I'd probably be A LOT happier with the HR20.


----------



## ToddinVA

dennisj00 said:


> One use of the DLB that I SORELY miss is the ability to quickly check out the other tuner - another program - without the risk of dumping the main buffer that I'm watching. It was nice to check a program in the listing or see if it were something I should record and return to my main program.
> 
> I currently use the DLB workaround to watch two programs at the same time - yes, there are a number of times that I watch LIVE (or close to live) TV and wish I didn't have to set up one as a recording and hold my breath everytime I switch that I don't lose the live buffer.
> 
> I challenge anyone to come up with a workaround to see the second tuner without fumbling through a temporary recording. On my T-60 it's one click of either the 'LIVE TV" button or the down arrow.
> 
> I'd easily settle for two 45 minute buffers (or any split of the 90) that switch with the down arrow. Is that so hard to do? And worth not getting the Tivo converts?
> (I know right now demand for the hr20 isn't an issue)


Excellent points!


----------



## tiger2005

anubys said:


> well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...
> 
> we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...


So, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, with MRV I'd be able to, from my family room TV, watch a station on my HR20. Then use that same HR20 to access another HR20 I have in my bedroom and set that to buffer another show and then watch that show via my HR20 in the family room. Does that make sense? I always thought that MRV could only access programs that have been recorded on the hard drive, not actual live 'buffers'.

Also, what would be the transfer rate of a single HD recording over a network? I'm guessing that a significant amount of my network's available bandwidth will be cut.

Note: Why they wouldn't give the R15 and R16 models the ability to network, thereby eliminating MRV is beyond me because that cuts out A LOT of people from accessing any of these features in their DVR line.


----------



## boltjames

Green23 said:


> It was not an accident- there are 2 independent tuners and one can switch between them. Why is that "strange" or a "hack" or "unintended?"
> 
> It's a simple concept- 2 *independent* tuners in the box and the ability to view either one. The DVR+ tuners seem to be *dependent* ones, as you have to start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds.


DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.

That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?


No, not a D* employee.

And I'll argue that my love for the HR20 and my lack of tolerance for those that would besmirch it suits a better purpose for this community than the endless complaining about a non-feature that isn't high on D*'s radar. You may not like my point of view, but at least it's constructive, not destructive. At least it supports the current platform for all its amazing upside and doesn't rally against it for the one accidental gearhead feature it lacks.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.


It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?

I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.

DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> I have had a Sharp Aquos LC-45GD6U hooked up to both the HR10 & HR2x for over three years now. The HR10 never had a problem with HDMI and neither does the HR2x with native off. However, native on has reeked havoc with my HDMI link ever since I first tried it 18 months ago. Maybe it's the TV, but other components I own don't have a problem.
> 
> I don't necessary need the DVR to morph into anything else; I just want it to record programs reliably and have a functional DLB. It should perform its core function flawlessly, and then bring on other things (DOD) if desired.
> 
> Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can't playback a program without having a critical error, then someone's priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.


I am sorry for the audio sync and HDMI issues you are struggling with, but I'm having no such issues with a similar setup and similar FF'ing on the same program and experienced no issues whatsoever.

Instead of believing that all HR20's are having these problems, perhaps yours is a defective unit that needs replacing. Mine are perfect and there does not seem to be a recall scenario being considered; it looks like you may have a modestly isolated situation.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?
> 
> I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.
> 
> DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.


My recollection is that my T-60's and my HR10 had the functionality but it was a visit here (or AVS) that opened my eyes to DLB.

BJ


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?
> 
> I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.
> 
> DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.


They did . Also I never visited any forums way back then either , but I guess I got lucky and stumbled upon it before the announcement . I mean , come on how many people never accidently hit the live button and figured it out .


----------



## dennisj00

The remote for the Sony T-60 was so intuitive that it didn't take a degree to figure out what happened when you pressed Live TV the second (and third) time to cycle between two buffers with the status bar on screen.

I checked, nothing is in the manual but guess what, very few of the 'features' of the HR20 discussed in this thread are in the manual or printed material that I received yesterday. Besides, who reads the manual?!!


----------



## tiger2005

dennisj00 said:


> The remote for the Sony T-60 was so intuitive that it didn't take a degree to figure out what happened when you pressed Live TV the second (and third) time to cycle between two buffers with the status bar on screen.
> 
> I checked, nothing is in the manual but guess what, very few of the 'features' of the HR20 discussed in this thread are in the manual or printed material that I received yesterday. Besides, who reads the manual?!!


Great point! I guess a lot of the features for the HR20 are hacks???

The ENTIRE step-by-step for DLB is captured in the Series2 manuals available here on page 3:
http://tivosupport2.instancy.com/Co...rs Guide - The Basics in Five Short Tours.pdf


----------



## JBernardK

anubys said:


> well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...
> 
> we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...


I think a lot depends on how they implement it. With the HD TiVo, for example, you can view previously recorded shows on a second TiVo, but there is a delay with HD material since the network is slower than real time. It is best used by transfering a program and then watching it. I don't think you can view a live tuner in another room. But of course D* may implement it differently.

Also the TiVo and the FIOS DVR have DLB and MRV so I don't see how DLB prevents MRV, but again it depends on how they implement it.


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> Great point! I guess a lot of the features for the HR20 are hacks???
> 
> The ENTIRE step-by-step for DLB is captured in the Series2 manuals available here on page 3:


"Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

Doug Brott said:


> It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?
> 
> I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.
> 
> DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.


Yep, dual tuner use wasn't ready yet when the original DirecTV SDTiVo came out years ago. There was all kinds of discussion about when it would come and when you could switch between the tuners. It showed up in a software update a few months later. It was hardly an accidental feature, Bolt...


----------



## jheda

Wow BJ, that should end your entire line of thinking that DLB is a hack, tweak, orunderground.
Its uncontroverted its a feature in a manual with instructions on how to utilize (see below).
Clearly a feature (core or not core, no dog in that fight  ) some (most?) want in their camry.

PS... IMHO, perhaps a little condescending for you to characterize DTV's perception of subs as "wants MR. and MRs. Camry to think about". I truly dont believe DTV is hiding the feature from its subs, my friend, so the subs are "not aware" of it. You might want to give the DTV engineers a little more credit, more in the lines of a known feature they have opted not to impliment.... to date.

_Watching and Recording Two Shows At Once
The TiVo® Series2TM DT (dual tuner) DVR is capable of recording two different live TV
channels at the same time-one on each of its 2 tuners. Go ahead, try it:
1. First, press PAUSE to pause the live TV program you're watching.
2. Press LIVE TV to switch to the other tuner. (It's just like changing the channel.)
3. Watch the program for a few moments, then press PAUSE .
4. Press LIVE TV again to switch back to the first tuner. Notice that the first program
you were watching is still paused. You can pause for up to 30 minutes on each tuner!
Press PLAY to continue watching the program.
Now you really can watch two programs at the same time! Press RECORD while watching
either tuner-or on both tuners to record two programs at the same time._



boltjames said:


> "Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.
> 
> BJ


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?
> 
> I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.
> 
> DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.


Yup. I remember when I first got my Sat-T60's, only one tuner was enabled, even though I ran lines for both. /steve


----------



## jahgreen

tiger2005 said:


> +1!!
> 
> The problem I see with all of that is that the features they've implemented, with the exception of media sharing, all are designed to generate additional revenue streams for DirecTV. That seems to be DirecTV's number one priority in relation to new features on this box. Until the people in control of the platform features think that DLB is causing them to lose revenue, I don't see it being implemented.


Isn't that exactly what a well-managed company should do?


----------



## ATARI

Tell you what, D*, I'll pay $1 more a month for DLB.

Now you have your revenue stream.

Deal?


----------



## tiger2005

jahgreen said:


> Isn't that exactly what a well-managed company should do?


I don't dispute that. But what is the overall gain? Disappointing customers by removing features they had previously, that the majority of the competition still offers? I know they'll be losing revenue from me this coming year when I cancel Sunday Ticket. I've kept it for the last two years I've had the HR20, and I don't find even close to the amount of enjoyment I had previously with DLB.

Adding 'features' such as DoD, interactive gaming, etc. that have little value to many people, and sacrificing feature's that enhance why I have DirecTV (DUH, for their TV service) go a much longer way to making me an unhappy customer, thereby looking at my other options. As I've said before, DirecTV has everyone by the b***s right now with their HD offerings, but how long is that really going to last? HD will be standard in the not too distant future so then what is DirecTV's business model going to be based on, Gamers Lounge?? Nice!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> "Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.
> 
> BJ


I don't understand why you continue to call it a "tweaky" or "underground" feature.

I installed my HDVR2 on 18th Nov 2003.

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 3, page 35:

*"With Dual Tuner, 30 minutes of live TV is saved on both tuners. That means you can use the instant replay, slow motion and pause features on either channel"*

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 46:

*"With Dual Tuner, you can switch between two channels, and 30 minutes of live TV will be saved on each channel."*

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 47:

*"With Dual Tuner, if you're switching between two channels by using the DOWN arrow, the DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."*

It wasn't a hidden feature. 
It wasn't something you had figure out on your own. 
It wasn't something you would only know about if you were a techie surfing the forums.

It was a well documented feature with descriptions/instructions in the manual.

Mike

EDITED TO ADD INFO
If you had read your manual you would have seen the following from the HR10-250 User's Guide, chapter 5, page 73:

*"With dual tuner, you can switch between two channels using the DOWN arrow or the
LIVE TV button. The HD DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."*


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> I am sorry for the audio sync and HDMI issues you are struggling with, but I'm having no such issues with a similar setup and similar FF'ing on the same program and experienced no issues whatsoever.
> 
> Instead of believing that all HR20's are having these problems, perhaps yours is a defective unit that needs replacing. Mine are perfect and there does not seem to be a recall scenario being considered; it looks like you may have a modestly isolated situation.
> 
> BJ


The unit isn't defective, the software is. I've had audio dropouts, interactive stat freeze-up, and other issues on all five of my HR2x units spanning ~16 months. Yes, the HR20 has become better over that time, but the fact that the HR21 still is experiencing some of these issues points directly to the software. The HR21 is lagging in its upgrades when compared to the HR20, however I read around these forums that things may catch up soon.

If it is the box, what is it? Did they forget to put enough memory in or the wrong processor inside? The thing is running like it is resource limited when it tries to initiate too many concurrent tasks, so maybe the extraneous features (Media share, DOD, interactive capabilities) that are not crucial to the main purpose of the unit are getting in the way. If so, better code is needed or less things should be in there (except for DLB of course  ).


----------



## tiger2005

Dr. Booda said:


> The unit isn't defective, the software is. I've had audio dropouts, interactive stat freeze-up, and other issues on all five of my HR2x units spanning ~16 months. Yes, the HR20 has become better over that time, but the fact that the HR21 still is experiencing some of these issues points directly to the software. The HR21 is lagging in its upgrades when compared to the HR20, however I read around these forums that things may catch up soon.
> 
> If it is the box, what is it? Did they forget to put enough memory in or the wrong processor inside? The thing is running like it is resource limited when it tries to initiate too many concurrent tasks, so maybe the extraneous features (Media share, DOD, interactive capabilities) that are not crucial to the main purpose of the unit are getting in the way. If so, better code is needed or less things should be in there (except for DLB of course  ).


No, I still have lip synch, trickplay, etc. with my HR20. I'm sure you know this, but you're not alone.


----------



## Doug Brott

jahgreen said:


> Isn't that exactly what a well-managed company should do?


I would say that DIRECTV does a good job of focusing on their bottom line. While DLB is desired by many, it's doubtful that it's "removal" has hurt the bottom line and it's equally doubtful that any return would help the bottom line. Maybe that's true at some point in the future, but at this point the driving factor is HD and DLB isn't even in the same building, let alone the same room.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Doug Brott said:


> I would say that DIRECTV does a good job of focusing on their bottom line. While DLB is desired by many, it's doubtful that it's "removal" has hurt the bottom line and it's equally doubtful that any return would help the bottom line. Maybe that's true at some point in the future, but at this point the driving factor is HD and DLB isn't even in the same building, let alone the same room.


I agree that at the current time the bottom line is fairly immune to the lack of DLB. However, if competitors offer similar programming (both HD availability and monopolistic sports packages) customer base erosion will begin for those that miss the feature. DirecTV would be wise to maintain their death hold on NFLST in this regard, until Congress acts to break up the monopoly.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree that at the current time the bottom line is fairly immune to the lack of DLB. However, if competitors offer similar programming (both HD availability and monopolistic sports packages) customer base erosion will begin for those that miss the feature. DirecTV would be wise to maintain their death hold on NFLST in this regard, until Congress acts to break up the monopoly.


What monopoly?

It is an exclusive contract between two companies... which had an opportunity for other companies to be involved in.

NFL owns the rights to their content...
They set the price.

DirecTV decided to pay it, others did not...

Anyway... that is a discussion for another thread...


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> What monopoly?
> 
> It is an exclusive contract between two companies... which had an opportunity for other companies to be involved in.
> 
> NFL owns the rights to their content...
> They set the price.
> 
> DirecTV decided to pay it, others did not...
> 
> Anyway... that is a discussion for another thread...


Just a reference to the ongoing NFL Network fiasco, but it is off topic.


----------



## Lord Vader

Dr. Booda said:


> Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can't playback a program without having a critical error, then someone's priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.


My HR20s have always done this, and I've just accepted it as a way of life--not that I like it, because every time I come out of FF or 30-second skip, it's not until I'm 4 to 5 seconds or so into the playback that my audio comes back. I then have to hit replay usually twice to go back so that by the time the show restarts, the audio is there with it.


----------



## inkahauts

I have not had audio drop out problems on recorded programs in months...


----------



## inkahauts

Ok, so I have a question for everyone... Does anyone remember how long it was between when the first Directv Tivo, (with only one tuner activated) came out and the upgrade that allowed for DLB? I just can't recall....


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.
> 
> That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.
> 
> BJ





MicroBeta said:


> I don't understand why you continue to call it a "tweaky" or "underground" feature.
> 
> I installed my HDVR2 on 18th Nov 2003.
> 
> The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 3, page 35:
> 
> *"With Dual Tuner, 30 minutes of live TV is saved on both tuners. That means you can use the instant replay, slow motion and pause features on either channel"*
> 
> The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 46:
> 
> *"With Dual Tuner, you can switch between two channels, and 30 minutes of live TV will be saved on each channel."*
> 
> The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 47:
> 
> *"With Dual Tuner, if you're switching between two channels by using the DOWN arrow, the DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."*
> 
> It wasn't a hidden feature.
> It wasn't something you had figure out on your own.
> It wasn't something you would only know about if you were a techie surfing the forums.
> 
> It was a well documented feature with descriptions/instructions in the manual.
> 
> Mike
> 
> EDITED TO ADD INFO
> If you had read your manual you would have seen the following from the HR10-250 User's Guide, chapter 5, page 73:
> 
> *"With dual tuner, you can switch between two channels using the DOWN arrow or the
> LIVE TV button. The HD DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."*


Wow---that just cut BJ's theory off at the knees.
It also demonstrates how a "dual tuner" system should operate. Let me have this type of access to the tuners again please...


----------



## jheda

And so ends ANY credibility to the argument that DLB was/is an unintended benefit. Mr. and Mrs. Camry, welcome back to DLB.....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

inkahauts said:


> Ok, so I have a question for everyone... Does anyone remember how long it was between when the first Directv Tivo, (with only one tuner activated) came out and the upgrade that allowed for DLB? I just can't recall....


It took a couple weeks for Dual Tuners to even become active...
I don't remember how long between the time we got the first DirecTivo's and when dual tuners was activated.

If someone wants to dig... check out the archives at TiVoCommunity.
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/ti...&sortfield=lastpost&perpage=35&pagenumber=837

Which I know was truncated... to it won't give the best start date, but you will be able to find dual tuners.

As for DLB... that will probably take some more digging...
As I am 90% sure it wasn't there when dual tuners was first activated... but don't recall a time frame on when it went active.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

inkahauts said:


> Ok, so I have a question for everyone... Does anyone remember how long it was between when the first Directv Tivo, (with only one tuner activated) came out and the upgrade that allowed for DLB? I just can't recall....


I was searching through the Tivo Community Archives 1 and it seems *DLB* became active around the end of 2001 - begining of 2002.

This is cursory, so take it with a grain of salt.

I posted earlier today some excerpts from the manual which came with my HDVR2. I got the HDVR2 in November 2003.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> I was searching through the Tivo Community Archives 1 and it seems *DLB* became active around the end of 2001 - begriming of 2002.
> 
> This is cursory, so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> I posted earlier today some excerpts from the manual which came with my HDVR2. I got the HDVR2 in November 2003.
> 
> Mike


I got my first SAT-T60 around November 2000 .. pretty much when they became available. Dual Tuners were roughly 6 months later ..

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15632

The link above will take you to the "Earl" of the day .. Richard Bullwinkle affectionately known as TiVolutionary who hinted at a summer release of "Dual Tuners."


----------



## boltjames

Green23 said:


> Wow---that just cut BJ's theory off at the knees.
> It also demonstrates how a "dual tuner" system should operate. Let me have this type of access to the tuners again please...


This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?

BJ


----------



## skimmilk

Having just gotten my HR21, I just wanted to voice my frustration over the lack of true DLB. While I am an avid sports junkie, my wife and I are finding the lack of true DLB infuriating on all fronts especially now with the writers strike (no consistent good TV) and no more football. Having so many HD channels is useless when you are tied to just one without going through hoops. We change channels frequently, and do not follow more than 3 or 4 TV shows regularly. In the Tivo days, we might watch one channel with lots of 30 minute shows like Comedy Central, try to find something better on the other tuner and flip back between commercials. Then, we restart the search for something decent on the first tuner again if we find something good. This process continues for the remainder of the evening.

I apologize to the DTV overlords for not wanting to be a vegetable committing to one show on any regular basis let alone for the length of an episode.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.
> 
> Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?
> 
> BJ


I'm not sure it would be appropriate to assume to "know" what the average Directv user knows/thinks.

I don't think you can characterize multiple references as buried in the manual

Especially when one of them is separated from the main body as a tip and is in bold text.

However, I would be interested in reading why we very well know that's true.



boltjames said:


> DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.
> 
> That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.
> 
> BJ


Truth is, *DLB* was anticipated and lauded(BTW, not my assumption...read the forums at the time). Although you could certainly argue that at the time it was limited tech savvy viewers...

Everyone I know with a DVR can switch between tuners. Ok, my in-laws don't count. They are in their 70s and couldn't even get it to record correctly. I love 'em but you couldn't find a less tech savvy couple of people. :lol: (no, really, I think my cats are more tech savvy)

The three people I know with DVR+ miss it but are ok with it so they would probably would fit the _"Like the option but, Ok if it's not there.'_

I don't think I know a single person that knows what it's called. They just know they can switch between tuners. Of course I'm not even sure dual live buffers is a real term outside the forums. I have no idea what it's called in "_in the industry_".

IMHO, based on personal experience, most people know about the ability to switch between tuners. Whatever they know it by or whatever or they call it, they know they can watch two live shows at once.

Just because people use it doesn't mean they feel they must have it so from that prospective you might say there's more of a "I'll miss it but..." kind of an atitude. I'm not sure you can say nobody cares. You certainly *can't* say nobody knows.

Mike


----------



## inkahauts

So lets recap... The Directv tivos were release to the general public before they had all the features up and running. They didn't receive DLB for at least 6 months, maybe 18 months? The units had issues when they first came out (I sold them and know they had plenty of issues), and over time the software was upgraded until the unit was fairly stable with only few problems....

Directv comes out with the HR2X's, built from the ground up, and releases software updates regularly making the unit more and more stable and add numerous features to it in about 16 months following its initial release, and they have added far more capabilities than tivo ever has, and have shown no signs of slowing down.

Sound familiar?

We are still very early in the life of the HR2X's...


----------



## inkahauts

skimmilk said:


> Having just gotten my HR21, I just wanted to voice my frustration over the lack of true DLB. While I am an avid sports junkie, my wife and I are finding the lack of true DLB infuriating on all fronts especially now with the writers strike (no consistent good TV) and no more football. Having so many HD channels is useless when you are tied to just one without going through hoops. We change channels frequently, and do not follow more than 3 or 4 TV shows regularly. In the Tivo days, we might watch one channel with lots of 30 minute shows like Comedy Central, try to find something better on the other tuner and flip back between commercials. Then, we restart the search for something decent on the first tuner again if we find something good. This process continues for the remainder of the evening.
> 
> I apologize to the DTV overlords for not wanting to be a vegetable committing to one show on any regular basis let alone for the length of an episode.


I suggest you go through the guide for the next week and tell the unit to record anything you might be interested in. The sit down and watch what you've recorded and if you don't like it you can erase it and move on to the next show. All you would be doing is time shifting when you are searching vs. when you are watching, and everyone will be happy. Plus, maybe you'll find something to watch that is normally on at a time frame when your never in front of the TV. Especially with the writers strike, I can't handle watching any live tv.. I don't know how you do it!!!!:nono2:


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> they have added far more capabilities than tivo ever has, and have shown no signs of slowing down.


That statement is all relative to what features are important to the user. Can I look at pictures on my HR20? -Yep. Do I care - Nope, used it once.

Neither Tivo (nor motorola) has limits on SLs.
Tivo (and motorola) have DLBs.

Those are two capabilities that are important to me, so given the features that are important to me, the HR2x/R15 is no more capable for what I use a DVR for than is tivo or motorola. There are abolutely some things I like about the D* DVRs, but they are balanced out by two glaring negatives.

Not only that, but the R15 has been out for well over two years now, so the analogy that Tivo took 18mos so give it a chance doesn't fly.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

skimmilk said:


> Having just gotten my HR21, I just wanted to voice my frustration over the lack of true DLB. While I am an avid sports junkie, my wife and I are finding the lack of true DLB infuriating on all fronts especially now with the writers strike (no consistent good TV) and no more football. Having so many HD channels is useless when you are tied to just one without going through hoops. We change channels frequently, and do not follow more than 3 or 4 TV shows regularly. In the Tivo days, we might watch one channel with lots of 30 minute shows like Comedy Central, try to find something better on the other tuner and flip back between commercials. Then, we restart the search for something decent on the first tuner again if we find something good. This process continues for the remainder of the evening.
> 
> I apologize to the DTV overlords for not wanting to be a vegetable committing to one show on any regular basis let alone for the length of an episode.


Welcom to the forum...:welcome_s

There's a whole lot to like about the HR2x DVRs.

There are a couple of good ways to approximate *DLB*.

IMHO this link is one of the best.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=113126

Mike


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.
> 
> BJ


Are you for real?? That it utter nonsense. Just because you say so, doesn't make it so. :lol:


----------



## anubys

tiger2005 said:


> So, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, with MRV I'd be able to, from my family room TV, watch a station on my HR20. Then use that same HR20 to access another HR20 I have in my bedroom and set that to buffer another show and then watch that show via my HR20 in the family room. Does that make sense? I always thought that MRV could only access programs that have been recorded on the hard drive, not actual live 'buffers'.
> 
> Also, what would be the transfer rate of a single HD recording over a network? I'm guessing that a significant amount of my network's available bandwidth will be cut.


sorry about the late response...got to work sometime 

as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...those sit in a closet (where you put your multi-switch, for example) and would connect via ONE cable to a small receiver next to each TV where you command those HR20s...so you would have access to all 4 HR20s at the same time from each TV...all the cables and whirring/noisy hard drives would be in the closet...

in effect, you would have 8 live buffers at each TV...even if you can't toggle between them, you can have 8 recordings at once (8 NFL games, for example) and switch between them at will...this would make DLB obsolete...and you can watch anything you record anywhere in the house since none of the recordings would be specific to one room...


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

anubys said:


> sorry about the late response...got to work sometime
> 
> as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...those sit in a closet (where you put your multi-switch, for example) and would connect via ONE cable to a small receiver next to each TV where you command those HR20s...so you would have access to all 4 HR20s at the same time from each TV...all the cables and whirring/noisy hard drives would be in the closet...
> 
> in effect, you would have 8 live buffers at each TV...even if you can't toggle between them, you can have 8 recordings at once (8 NFL games, for example) and switch between them at will...this would make DLB obsolete...and you can watch anything you record anywhere in the house since none of the recordings would be specific to one room...


No, you would have an HR20 or HR21 at whatever locations in your house you want. You would need to have the networked wired or wireless to your home network. Than if you have something recorded on a different unit than the one you are actually using at the time you would be able to select a program from another unit and stream it over your network to the unit you are using to watch that program.


----------



## anubys

BMoreRavens said:


> No, you would have an HR20 or HR21 at whatever locations in your house you want. You would need to have the networked wired or wireless to your home network. Than if you have something recorded on a different unit than the one you are actually using at the time you would be able to select a program from another unit and stream it over your network to the unit you are using to watch that program.


the setup I'm talking about is something that was discussed extensively...it's been a while since I checked on its progress...maybe it's not called MRV...but it's not a figment of my imagination...or is it?


----------



## Steve

anubys said:


> as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...


*Bmoreravens* is right about conventional MRV as implemented by other companies.

I in fact am hopeful DirecTV will offer "virtual" stacking, with an option for a "whole system" scheduler that would take advantage of any tuner in the house that's available... and maybe even record a "back-up" on another unit if possible.

We've been discussing some of the pros and cons of this here. /steve


----------



## Dr. Booda

inkahauts said:


> So lets recap... The Directv tivos were release to the general public before they had all the features up and running. They didn't receive DLB for at least 6 months, maybe 18 months? The units had issues when they first came out (I sold them and know they had plenty of issues), and over time the software was upgraded until the unit was fairly stable with only few problems....
> 
> Directv comes out with the HR2X's, built from the ground up, and releases software updates regularly making the unit more and more stable and add numerous features to it in about 16 months following its initial release, and they have added far more capabilities than tivo ever has, and have shown no signs of slowing down.
> 
> Sound familiar?
> 
> We are still very early in the life of the HR2X's...


One glaring difference, DLB was a new feature back then, not a known feature that was discarded intentionally. Taking 6 or 18 months to create something new isn't outrageous, making a decision to toss a known competitive feature away is (*).

* = fill in with your favorite adjective.


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> However, I would be interested in reading why we very well know that's true.


Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.

Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even _they _left it off, well, speaks volumes.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> Are you for real?? That it utter nonsense. Just because you say so, doesn't make it so. :lol:


You're inside an apartment. You look through a window, down to the street. You see every car with its windshield wipers on. You see buisinesspeople with umbrellas open. You see children with their hoods up. You see puddles in the street. Do you really need to look up to the sky to confirm that it's raining?

You own a DVR. You turn it on. You notice that there is no function for DLB. The engineers who made the product didn't build it in. It was there on previous models. Every other existing feature was preserved. Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.
> 
> Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?
> 
> BJ





boltjames said:


> Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.
> 
> Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even _they _left it off, well, speaks volumes.
> 
> BJ


That doesn't answer this question at all...
"_...No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?_"

I'm well aware of why it's not on the DVR+ platform.

I want to know why the average Directv use doesn't know the feature existed.

Mike


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> DLB is unimportant?
> 
> BJ


Unimportant to you.

NOT unimportant to 2811 other posters (including me).


----------



## Steve

boltjames said:


> You're inside an apartment. You look through a window, down to the street. You see every car with its windshield wipers on. You see buisinesspeople with umbrellas open. You see children with their hoods up. You see puddles in the street. Do you really need to look up to the sky to confirm that it's raining?
> 
> You own a DVR. You turn it on. You notice that there is no function for DLB. The engineers who made the product didn't build it in. It was there on previous models. Every other existing feature was preserved. Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?
> 
> BJ


You're not responding to the statements you've made that *Todd* is reacting to.

I believe he's basically questioning your earlier assertion that DirecTiVo DLBs was a hidden power-user feature that DirecTV didn't properly describe or document for the average user, or otherwise tried to keep hidden from them. You may believe this, but I sure don't. And I suspect most others would disagree with you as well. Just my .02. /steve


----------



## mikewolf13

boltjames said:


> Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.
> 
> Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even _they _left it off, well, speaks volumes.
> 
> BJ


Under that logic, wouldn't every feature that the TIVO (or other DVR) did not have be considered unimportant?

Certainly those that engineered the TIVO were power users...and they chose not to have PIG. Or any of the dozens of other features people here seem to like.

Sometimes engineers are wrong, sometimes designs are bad...they didn't have auto-correct when the DVR+ line came out because DTV said it was a "choice" and that they didn't think the masses wanted it.....was he correct?

I believe auto-correction has been implemented in the updates (I am not a current user), so either the design "choice" was wrong or the definition of indispensible changed quickly.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> Certainly those that engineered the TIVO were power users...and they chose not to have PIG. Or any of the dozens of other features people here seem to like.


Not to split hairs... but the newest TiVo... the COMCAST TiVo has PIG.



mikewolf said:


> Sometimes engineers are wrong, sometimes designs are bad...they didn't have auto-correct when the DVR+ line came out because DTV said it was a "choice" and that they didn't think the masses wanted it.....was he correct?


That wasn't the reason why auto-correct wasn't there.


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.
> 
> Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even _they _left it off, well, speaks volumes.
> 
> BJ


I certainly wasn't a "power user" when I bought my HR10 over three years ago, unless you describe a "power user" as one that can hook up their own A/V system. I read about DLB in the HR10 manual, tried it out, and found that my wife and I really liked the feature. It enhanced live TV viewing, and when paired with a reliable DVR to record programs when we had other things to do, made the HR10 a great product. DLB enhanced a core feature of the unit: live TV viewing.

Fast forward to now with the HR2x. Features are added that make us go, huh? What does Media Share or Interactive Gaming have to do with either live TV viewing or the recording of programs? Who would want their satellite receiver/DVR to perform those tasks? DOD could be argued as enhancing the recorded program & live TV aspect of use, but the others are totally unrelated. On top of that, DLB is removed therefore de-emphasizing the importance of live TV viewing. To us, those are illogical decisions that cause us to lose respect for DirecTV.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not to split hairs... but the newest TiVo... the COMCAST TiVo has PIG.
> 
> That wasn't the reason why auto-correct wasn't there.


My point was that just becuase a feature is not included, does not mean it's not a valued feature. Designs improve...sometimes designs are worse...but I for one do not have faith DTV nailed all the important features and omitted only the niche ones. (And yes, I would guess the same for TIVO)

Are you calling Roman Pontual a liar?  That is what he said..it was a "choice".

Obviously there is a reason DLB is not implemented. A reason has been given to Earl, which he can not divulge...which to me doesn't indicate that it's simply because it was "buried" in the HDVR2 manual.

Whether that reason is as inaccurate as Pontual's explanation is another matter of debate we unfortunately can't have until Earl spills his guts.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Dr. Booda said:


> I certainly wasn't a "power user" when I bought my HR10 over three years ago, unless you describe a "power user" as one that can hook up their own A/V system. I read about DLB in the HR10 manual, tried it out, and found that my wife and I really liked the feature. It enhanced live TV viewing, and when paired with a reliable DVR to record programs when we had other things to do, made the HR10 a great product. DLB enhanced a core feature of the unit: live TV viewing.
> 
> Fast forward to now with the HR2x. Features are added that make us go, huh? What does Media Share or Interactive Gaming have to do with either live TV viewing or the recording of programs? Who would want their satellite receiver/DVR to perform those tasks? DOD could be argued as enhancing the recorded program & live TV aspect of use, but the others are totally unrelated. On top of that, DLB is removed therefore de-emphasizing the importance of live TV viewing. To us, those are illogical decisions that cause us to lose respect for DirecTV.


You raise an excellent point.

For me *DLB* is an enhancement of TV viewing. Not the end all to be all but a really cool convenience.

It made watching TV better.

On a different point...Being an engineer myself, I know that the engineers aren't always the ones making the choices as to what goes into a product. Functionality sometimes takes a back seat to other considerations.

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> My point was that just becuase a feature is not included, does not mean it's not a valued feature. Designs improve...sometimes designs are worse...but I for one do not have faith DTV nailed all the important features and omitted only the niche ones. (And yes, I would guess the same for TIVO)
> 
> Are you calling Roman Pontual a liar?  That is what he said..it was a "choice".
> 
> Obviously there is a reason DLB is not implemented. A reason has been given to Earl, which he can not divulge...which to me doesn't indicate that it's simply because it was "buried" in the HDVR2 manual.
> 
> Whether that reason is as inaccurate as Pontual's explanation is another matter of debate we unfortunately can't have until Earl spills his guts.


Okay... so then it was a choice on their part not to have auto-correct.
I was under the impression it had a lot more to do with the TiVo patents on the auto-correction technology... and analysis of the patents, and developing a new way of doing the same end function, while not infringing on the patents (or determining the pathents didn't have merit)... or what ever.

As for the DLB theory, being that it was an accident or buried in a manual.
That definently has nothing to do with DLB not being on the DVR+ platform.
And I have to giggle each time I see that as a theory on why it is not there.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... so then it was a choice on their part not to have auto-correct.
> I was under the impression it had a lot more to do with the TiVo patents on the auto-correction technology... and analysis of the patents, and developing a new way of doing the same end function, while not infringing on the patents (or determining the pathents didn't have merit)... or what ever.
> 
> As for the DLB theory, being that it was an accident or buried in a manual.
> That definently has nothing to do with DLB not being on the DVR+ platform.
> And I have to giggle each time I see that as a theory on why it is not there.


I agree with your answer and not Roman's....

You shouldn't keep things inside..it's not healthy.... Share and and we'll giggle along..


----------



## danor

Steve said:


> You're not responding to the statements you've made that *Todd* is reacting to.
> 
> I believe he's basically questioning your earlier assertion that DirecTiVo DLBs was a hidden power-user feature that DirecTV didn't properly describe or document for the average user, or otherwise tried to keep hidden from them. You may believe this, but I sure don't. And I suspect most others would disagree with you as well. Just my .02. /steve


I absolutely agree with you Steve.
I typically only skim user manuals unless I have an issue requiring that I read portions of it.
I figured out the DLB process very quickly. It was so incredibly intuitive that it more or less fell in my lap.
You can also add me to the long list of loyal *D customers who truly lament it's demise.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Every other existing feature was preserved.
> BJ


Uh, the HR20 most certainly* did not* preserve every other feature TiVo has. Take TiVo Suggestions for instance. They aren't there and I like them very much and I will miss them if ever fully go away from TiVo. However, no one's whining about it because it wasn't quite as popular as DLB and we know it's patented by TiVo and will never come to DirecTV again.

BTW, this thread is getting too bogged down with TiVo DLB comparisons. The fact is that almost every other dual tuner DVR has DLB! It's not just former TiVo users who miss it.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?
> 
> BJ


I don't know what the difference in actual sales is, but there are several reasons that many people have gotten the DVR+ boxes, most of which have nothing to do with not wanting features that were in TiVo:

- TiVo's are no longer available, so we have no choice in the matter anyway.
- You have to have the new boxes to get the new HD channels.
- DirecTV brought down the price and gave many of them away for little or no money.
- These are the boxes they have been pushing to everyone for awhile.


----------



## Dr. Booda

MicroBeta said:


> On a different point...Being an engineer myself, I know that the engineers aren't always the ones making the choices as to what goes into a product. Functionality sometimes takes a back seat to other considerations.


I'm in Product Engineering Management, and you are absolutely correct about Engineers and the choices that are made. The HR2x series IMHO appears to have had much more Marketing influence interjected than Engineering. Unfortunately, sometimes the balance between the two gets way out of whack and then strange things happen. Common sense decision making becomes secondary, unless very strong leadership is present. I never blame the Engineers, only Management. There are plenty of great Engineers, and very few great Managers.


----------



## Drew2k

anubys said:


> the setup I'm talking about is something that was discussed extensively...it's been a while since I checked on its progress...maybe it's not called MRV...but it's not a figment of my imagination...or is it?


I think you are describing the "home media center"?


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> I think you are describing the "home media center"?


I think so...I don't pay close enough attention and all these things sound the same to me...there was a lot of talk of this being the next best thing and really, it's the optimal setup...all the lines from the dish go to a central location, you get to use the SWM with only one cable running to each TV, and you get access to all the tuners and a massive hard drive (or more if you stack the units)...it's a breeze for an installer since there would be no cable runs needed for most homes and the noisy hard drives would be in some closet out of the way...

heck, the only thing that would make it even better if there's no cable run at all and it's wireless


----------



## ToddinVA

What the heck ever happened to the home media center anyway?? We could have several buffers going at the same time with that puppy!


----------



## Monduj1

I'm an engineer too and have had the (mis)fortune of working on the business side. I've seen too many examples of development engineers skirting common sense for the sake of simplicity. I've heard "It wasn't documented in the requirements" used as an excuse more than I want to remember. The requirements shouldn't have to spell out everything to the Nth detail (eg, R1 - Product should not kill operator when power button is depressed - duh!). That said, I'll still trust the engineer over the marketing guy on most days. :lol: 

I think it's fair to say at this point that BJ has little credibility on this particular topic. He's allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement on the facts. I appreciate his opinion, as he has every right to not care at all about DLB, much the same that a substantial number of us have the right to care very deeply for it. The fact that this thread is still active after all this time indicates to me that DLB is important. BTW, it's a very frequent topic on DirecTV's own forum as well. And it's not just people who migrated from H10s to H2*'s that are complaining either. I have an R10 and a Philips DSR708 (replaced another R10 that died), both of which support DLB. My move to HD with DirecTV is on hold due to the lack of DLB, as is my continued suffering of reboots on my DSR708 since the R15 "replacement" also lacks DLB.

I also share the comments of several others, that I could care less about non-DVR related features in my DVR. Game Lounge? I have a PS2 and a home PC. I am not a "power user". I did not stumble upon the DLB feature, I found it in the owner's manual. And I want it back. If DirecTV won't provide it in their models, my next purchase will not be from DirecTV. Simple as that. To me it's that important. All the competition will have abundant HD programming in the near future. I can certainly wait until that time to make the switch. I get my locals in HD via OTA in the meantime.

I continue to hold out hope for DirecTV. I WANT them to come around and offer DLB. I prefer their programming format to both DISH and ComCast. But it's still dumbfounding to me as an engineer how this feature/functionality continues to be omitted. This has to be a very simple software change.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Monduj1 said:


> I'm an engineer too
> ..................
> This has to be a very simple software change.


As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Monduj1 said:


> sinp
> This has to be a very simple software change.


You may be right, it may be a simple software change.

How will that software change effect current or future/planned features?

IMHO, it just isn't that simple.

I miss it...occasionally I miss it alot...but I like my HD more...

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Earl Bonovich said:


> As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.


:lol: .. oh so true .. So many times I've gone in blazing thinking it will take "just 5 minutes." .. oops! :lol:

The older I get, though, the more I don't do that


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not an engineer and generally when I sit down to change something I either break something else or it takes 4 times as long anyway.


----------



## afrosales

inkahauts said:


> I suggest you go through the guide for the next week and tell the unit to record anything you might be interested in. The sit down and watch what you've recorded and if you don't like it you can erase it and move on to the next show. All you would be doing is time shifting when you are searching vs. when you are watching, and everyone will be happy. Plus, maybe you'll find something to watch that is normally on at a time frame when your never in front of the TV. Especially with the writers strike, I can't handle watching any live tv.. I don't know how you do it!!!!:nono2:


Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

afrosales said:


> Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).


Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.


----------



## afrosales

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.


Touche. I guess it all depends on when you watch TV and when you go to bed.

The bottom line is that in an effort to increase my TV viewing enjoyment (going to more HD with the HR21) I have actually reduced it (by having to change my viewing habits). Maybe I should just go back to 4:3 and my T-60... oh, I forgot, D* will not give me my money back for the HR21 which is why I joined this whine and cheese club in the first place.


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.


Sure its possible - but its a heck of alot less convenient.


----------



## MikeR7

Last night I watched the Minnesota-Michigan basketball game on a recorded buffer very close to live and the 7-8 Lost recap epsisode at the same time on the live buffer, switching back and forth with the prv ch button. Works just as good or better than DLB as far as I am concerned. (I am on the latest CE software version). I honestly don't see what the fuss is about anymore. :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> Sure its possible - but its a heck of alot less convenient.


Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.


----------



## James Long

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.


Ditto ... 6pm-7pm news and 11pm news are recorded nightly. Even though I usually watch the 11pm live, I don't miss the news unless I decide not to watch. Sometimes I'll watch it the next day.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

afrosales said:


> Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).


Wow that's a large portion of your viewing time devoted to news. :eek2:

I'd say it about 5% of our viewing time.

Although, I record the morning/evening news everyday.

I miss *DLB* for other reasons...general viewing

Mike


----------



## Monduj1

Earl Bonovich said:


> As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.


Sure, for a brand new, never developed feature. But you're forgetting the fact that this feature EXISTED before in the H10!

You are correct that sometimes what appear to be "easy" software changes can turn out to be incredibly complex. I guess DirecTV's engineers are just plain stupid then, since Motorola, Tivo, and just about every other DVR provider has figured it out.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Monduj1 said:


> Sure, for a brand new, never developed feature. But you're forgetting the fact that this feature EXISTED before in the H10!


On a COMPLETE different software/hardware platform....
And it was the HR10 to be technically correct... the H10 is not a DVR



Monduj1 said:


> You are correct that sometimes what appear to be "easy" software changes can turn out to be incredibly complex. I guess DirecTV's engineers are just plain stupid then, since Motorola, Tivo, and just about every other DVR provider has figured it out.


Where did I say they couldn't figure it out? or anyone?

Again... this is not a decision necessarily by the engineers or the programmers or the technical team. This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.


----------



## havlicek

Earl Bonovich said:


> This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.


Is directv aware and/or concerned that their HD DVR is soon to be (if not already) the only one in the market not to include this functionality?


----------



## Monduj1

Earl Bonovich said:


> On a COMPLETE different software/hardware platform....
> And it was the HR10 to be technically correct... the H10 is not a DVR


Mea culpa, it is the HR10. And while the HR10 was a different software/hardware platform, my point was that they had figured it out once, so it should be relatively easy to figure out again.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Where did I say they couldn't figure it out? or anyone?
> 
> Again... this is not a decision necessarily by the engineers or the programmers or the technical team. This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.


Understood. We need a renegade engineer to put it back in without being instructed to, like an Easter Egg.


----------



## Doug Brott

Monduj1 said:


> Mea culpa, it is the HR10. And while the HR10 was a different software/hardware platform, my point was that they had figured it out once, so it should be relatively easy to figure out again.


It looks that way, but if you read the fine print, TiVo was contracted to build the HR10 for DIRECTV. I doubt TiVo handed the secret sauce over to DIRECTV once the relationship changed.


----------



## SteelersFan_in_CA

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...not to have the DLB function in their *DLB+* platform.


Looks like Earl has DLB engrained in his brain.:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

SteelersFan_in_CA said:


> Looks like Earl has DLB engrained in his brain.:lol:


I noticed that as well, but we all know he meant to say DVR+ :grin:


----------



## SteelersFan_in_CA

Doug Brott said:


> I noticed that as well, but we all know he meant to say DVR+ :grin:


Riiiiiight!:lol:


----------



## sunking

Earl Bonovich said:


> Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.


And I find it a lot more convenient to watch the 11:00 news when it's on so I can go to bed as soon as I see the story that peaked my interest. Of course you don't know when in the half hour that will be so want to flip between it and the Daily Show conveniently. For me, neither show is worth recording, no matter how easy it is to clean up afterwards. DLBs worked perfectly for this. I've also been 'saved' countless times on things that I wanted to record but simply forgot to only to find that channel was already on the other tuner and being buffered . Flip to it, hit record, and the whole thing was there (of course this has also burned be by inadvertently changing a buffered show to another channel). Not to mention a snowy morning trying to wait for the school closings to scroll across the bottom. I'm busy getting ready, not focusing on the TV and want to do some channel surfing while getting ready and watching a different place for the closings.

I personally still watch most of my evening TV while it's on simply because I want to go to bed when it's over and really don't feel like recording everything I watch. My life isn't so hectic at home that I can't occupy myself with reading or crossword puzzles or brush the dog, or more often than not channel surf while a commercial is on. Yah I time shift, but I don't think that is 100% what the DVR is about. It is about enhancing the TV experience in general, and DLB is a big part of that.

Point being, for every scenario you come up with where you have a workaround I'll be able to come up with how it's a hinderence or doesn't fit my lifestyle. Just like Peanut Butter and Pea Soup, you eat what you like, I'll eat what I like.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

sunking said:


> Point being, for every scenario you come up with where you have a workaround I'll be able to come up with how it's a hinderence or doesn't fit my lifestyle. Just like Peanut Butter and Pea Soup, you eat what you like, I'll eat what I like.


And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.

There will also be a scenerio that can't be done, or won't be done... ect.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.





MicroBeta said:


> Although, I record the morning/evening news everyday.


Earl & Mike,

This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.

The next morning the news is old, so there's new news to watch live. I agree with Sunking that DLB during the morning news is invaluable when I'm trying to get the kids out the door to school and want to catch the Sportscenter highlights. Recording those events to watch later doesn't work as both are out of date and replaced with new versions.

Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more live TV than not really miss DLB.


----------



## Rich

Earl Bonovich said:


> And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.
> 
> There will also be a scenerio that can't be done, or won't be done... ect.


I'm amazed you still have this thread running, Earl.

I tried the DLBs on a TiVo a couple times during the football season and it's easier to record both games and watch a recorded show for an hour or so and then watch the games.

I've been doing it this way (recording on both tuners) since Ultimate TV (did they have dual tuners?) and I don't get the obsession with DLBs. Recording is simpler. Simpler is better.

Rich


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> Earl & Mike,
> 
> This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.


Honestly...

They way our schedule is, with events with my son & family...

We often don't get to sit down to watch TV until 9pm (central).
We usually try to watch at least two shows, if not more.

Then when we get up stairs to go to bed, it is on average after 11pm.

We watch the news, using trickplay to skip over the stories that we are not intrested in... then end up watching a Modern Marval (or similar show), until we both crash out.

Most it is for the Weather forcast, and sports round up...
But since we are no where near a TV during the 5pm - 7pm news airings, kinda recaps the days events as well.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.


Wasn't the HR10 perfect for quite a while? Perfect for recording from two tuners; perfect for watching live TV via two DLB capable tuners. Or did I miss the outcry from all of those disenfranchised Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD users out there over the last three years? The only thing about the HR10 that wasn't perfect was it's MP4 processing capability.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Honestly...
> 
> They way our schedule is, with events with my son & family...
> 
> We often don't get to sit down to watch TV until 9pm (central).
> We usually try to watch at least two shows, if not more.
> 
> Then when we get up stairs to go to bed, it is on average after 11pm.
> 
> We watch the news, using trickplay to skip over the stories that we are not intrested in... then end up watching a Modern Marval (or similar show), until we both crash out.
> 
> Most it is for the Weather forcast, and sports round up...
> But since we are no where near a TV during the 5pm - 7pm news airings, kinda recaps the days events as well.


You're fairly close to my existence, but if I'm going to crash out, I'd like to do it to something like the news. Remembering the weather or sports recaps is easier at that time of night instead of something like a drama series that could possibly require some mental focus.


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more* live *TV than not really miss DLB.


That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.

Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.

Thanx again,
Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Dr. Booda said:


> Earl & Mike,
> 
> This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.
> 
> The next morning the news is old, so there's new news to watch live. I agree with Sunking that DLB during the morning news is invaluable when I'm trying to get the kids out the door to school and want to catch the Sportscenter highlights. Recording those events to watch later doesn't work as both are out of date and replaced with new versions.
> 
> Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more live TV than not really miss DLB.


By evening I meant 5-6pm.

I rarely watch the late news.

I scan the news items and get weather/sports before I go to work from the morning news (5am).

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> Wasn't the HR10 perfect for quite a while? Perfect for recording from two tuners; perfect for watching live TV via two DLB capable tuners. Or did I miss the outcry from all of those disenfranchised Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD users out there over the last three years? The only thing about the HR10 that wasn't perfect was it's MP4 processing capability.


The HR10 has never been perfect. And I have gone through three of them.
And it still isn't "perfect" today.

Actually there were plenty of people that wanted more features on the HR10... and those that have gone the path of hacking them to get them in there.


----------



## dennisj00

Obviously the last couple of pages show that few people use a DVR exactly like anyone else.

I think a simple down-arrow to switch between tuners - even if the second didn't have a 90 minute buffer would give more flexibility and usefulness than NO access to the second tuner. Far more useful to TV viewing than the Game Lounge or the Active Channels that you can die waiting on.

I don't understand why we aren't supposed to watch live tv with a HR-20. I don't record everything because I'm usually running around 90% full and don't want to risk automatic deletes - or mark everything to keep.

Perhaps we could rename DVR to DUAL VIDEO RECEIVER??

I haven't heard any response to my challenge for a workaround to see the second tuner without involving record.


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.
> 
> Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.
> 
> Thanx again,
> Rich


Rich,

Never watch live TV? I can understand recording some shows, but never? No current event content or mindless surfing? No checking out the business reports or election coverage? Wow, you've got more discipline than my family. Congrats.


----------



## jheda

As Earl has said along with most others, "better" is an opinion. Moreover, many will argue that DLB is "simpler"

Im fine personally with SLB as it functions now; but i understand the continued push for DLB and respect it.



rich584 said:


> I've been doing it this way (recording on both tuners) since Ultimate TV (did they have dual tuners?) and I don't get the obsession with DLBs. Recording is simpler. _Simpler is better_.
> 
> Rich


----------



## Dr. Booda

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR10 has never been perfect. And I have gone through three of them.
> And it still isn't "perfect" today.
> 
> Actually there were plenty of people that wanted more features on the HR10... and those that have gone the path of hacking them to get them in there.


What features were hacked? Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD? Didn't the HR10 record programs and allow enhanced live TV viewing via DLB? Wasn't that its core function? I know the software wasn't perfect, but didn't it do what it was supposed to?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

dennisj00 said:


> Obviously the last couple of pages show that few people use a DVR exactly like anyone else.
> 
> I think a simple down-arrow to switch between tuners - even if the second didn't have a 90 minute buffer would give more flexibility and usefulness than NO access to the second tuner. Far more useful to TV viewing than the Game Lounge or the Active Channels that you can die waiting on.
> 
> I don't understand why we aren't supposed to watch live tv with a HR-20. I don't record everything because I'm usually running around 90% full and don't want to risk automatic deletes - or mark everything to keep.
> 
> Perhaps we could rename DVR to DUAL VIDEO RECEIVER??
> 
> I haven't heard any response to my challenge for a workaround to see the second tuner without involving record.


You most certainly can watch live TV with an HR2*...
The debate is trying to watch 2 live events on the HR2*...

Why there is no response to your challenge... is you can't...
If you must retain your "position" in the first live program... then you have no other choice then to record it, if you want to change the channel.


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Wasn't the HR10 perfect for quite a while? Perfect for recording from two tuners; perfect for watching live TV via two DLB capable tuners. Or did I miss the outcry from all of those disenfranchised Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD users out there over the last three years? The only thing about the HR10 that wasn't perfect was it's MP4 processing capability.


I doubt if D* could lease a TiVo. Think of how many leased DVRs there are on D*s books. That affects the bottom line immensely for them. Now they get to play all the accounting games that accountants do with leased property. My wife's an accountant and she explained the advantages of leasing property to me. Understood enough to understand why D* decided to go that way. Seems like a good business decision to me.

I do agree with you about the HR10 in some respects, but I want large HDs and the cost of upgrading an HR10 to 750 Gigs was a whole lot higher than a 750 Gig eSATA for the HR20/21s.

I'm amazed every time I say this, but I really like the HR20-700 and the new HR21-700 I just got seems like a quicker version. After what I went thru last year...well, I'm still with them and I like them. Last year at this time, I would have never thought D* could bring the DVR this far in such a relatively short amount of time.

Rich


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> What features were hacked? Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD? Didn't the HR10 record programs and allow enhanced live TV viewing via DLB? Wasn't that its core function? I know the software wasn't perfect, but didn't it do what it was supposed to?


There are hacks to add similar things to Media Share.
There are also hacks to add MRV, Caller ID, Remote Booking, Undelete, Bulk Delete, Space Monitor, ect.... there are dozens of hacks actually.

As for Interactive Gaming... not sure if I have seen one to do that..
But Dod... no there isn't one for that, but that service didn't exist on the DirecTV platform till now...

But there was plenty of clamoring for said feature, from converts from services that did have DoD.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Perfect is in the eye of the remote control beholder. The HR10 was very good as a basic HD DVR, but many of the best features could not be activated like a normal TiVO and/or would cost too much, IMHO.

The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jheda

Soi am guessing from your avatar you watch only yankee games that reggie jackson played in? :lol: :lol:


rich584 said:


> That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.
> 
> Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.
> 
> Thanx again,
> Rich


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> I doubt if D* could lease a TiVo. Think of how many leased DVRs there are on D*s books. That affects the bottom line immensely for them. Now they get to play all the accounting games that accountants do with leased property. My wife's an accountant and she explained the advantages of leasing property to me. Understood enough to understand why D* decided to go that way. Seems like a good business decision to me.
> 
> Rich


I agree with you about the accounting games and leased property. It's a lot easier to manipulate the bottom line for the street.

For the way you use your unit, I understand why the HR2x is great for you. I just wish that they could have not reduced other users' capabilities while enhancing storage options, etc.


----------



## jheda

Tibber, what be swing searches?


Tom Robertson said:


> Perfect is in the eye of the remote control beholder. The HR10 was very good as a basic HD DVR, but many of the best features could not be activated like a normal TiVO and/or would cost too much, IMHO.
> 
> The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Dr. Booda

Tom Robertson said:


> Perfect is in the eye of the remote control beholder. The HR10 was very good as a basic HD DVR, but many of the best features could not be activated like a normal TiVO and/or would cost too much, IMHO.
> 
> The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


True, but from the point of view of a HR10 owner that isn't a "power user", I did find the thing almost perfect. I wasn't aware of the other normal TiVo features that you mentioned, I just liked the recording and live TV capabilities.


----------



## Tom Robertson

As I understand it, you start a normal search and bring up a item from the results. While perusing the information on that item, you can highlight an actor or director, press click and get search results that include other things from that actor or director.

I'm not sure how many other different categories you can swing on.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dr. Booda said:


> True, but from the point of view of a HR10 owner that isn't a "power user", I did find the thing almost perfect. I wasn't aware of the other normal TiVo features that you mentioned, I just liked the recording and live TV capabilities.


I can completely understand that point of view.  Thems is very important features too.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## JBernardK

rich584 said:


> I do agree with you about the HR10 in some respects, but I want large HDs and the cost of upgrading an HR10 to 750 Gigs was a whole lot higher than a 750 Gig eSATA for the HR20/21s.
> 
> Rich


How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure. sounds like it cost more with the HR20. In fact, with the HR10 you could actually buy a 500 Gb drive because TiVo figured out to how to use both drives together and D* has not.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure. sounds like it cost more with the HR20. In fact, with the HR10 you could actually buy a 500 Gb drive because TiVo figured out to how to use both drives together and D* has not.


Most likely, he is a user that is not one to do the upgrade himself... (aka going the path of using the PC to do all the upgrade steps with the linux CD's)... and wanted to buy the 750gb drive pre-setup from places like DVRUpgrade and Weakness.

With the HR10, you would also have to by the power splitter (which delays the startup of the second drive on the power supply), and the mounting bracket as natively ... the HR10 didn't support a second drive physically.

Where on the HR20... purchase an eSATA drive (With enclosure)... Connect, power up... restart the HR2*... done.


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Rich, Never watch live TV?


I don't. My son doesn't. My wife does once in a while.



> I can understand recording some shows, but never?


Not intentionally. I do get a kick out of commercials when I go to someone's home and they have live TV.



> No current event content


Nope.



> or mindless surfing?


Nope, last time I did it at someone's house, I ended up watching a bass fishing show. Saw a lot of spiffy bass boats.



> No checking out the business reports or election coverage?


Nope. Use a computer for things like that.



> Wow, you've got more discipline than my family.


Doubt that. Wife and son spend money like crazy and I try my best to keep up.

Oh, I read a couple newspapers everyday too. Been reading the New York Daily News since I was a wee tot and I get the local paper everyday and visit both paper's websites a couple times a day.

Rich


----------



## JBernardK

Tom Robertson said:


> The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

JBernardK said:


> The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.


Should we turn this into a comparison of what the TiVo series has and what the HR2* series has? We have only done that how many times...

There are several features that both platforms have, that the other doesn't.

(Oh and the HR20 does have remote booking).

And I will argue with you on "things that do have don't work very well", but that is not for this thread.


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> I don't. My son doesn't. My wife does once in a while.
> 
> Not intentionally. I do get a kick out of commercials when I go to someone's home and they have live TV.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Nope, last time I did it at someone's house, I ended up watching a bass fishing show. Saw a lot of spiffy bass boats.
> 
> Nope. Use a computer for things like that.
> 
> Doubt that. Wife and son spend money like crazy and I try my best to keep up.
> 
> Oh, I read a couple newspapers everyday too. Been reading the New York Daily News since I was a wee tot and I get the local paper everyday and visit both paper's websites a couple times a day.
> 
> Rich


Are you at least going to watch the Super Bowl?


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> Soi am guessing from your avatar you watch only yankee games that reggie jackson played in? :lol: :lol:


I watch every Yankees game the following morning. I love getting up in the morning and watching a baseball game. Then I go to a baseball field and hit baseballs and listen to the sports talk shows critique the game I just watched. Life is good. :icon_kiff

Rich


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)


Have you read about the problems with the Series 3 TiVos? Same as Series 2 TiVos.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> For the way you use your unit, I understand why the HR2x is great for you. I just wish that they could have not reduced other users' capabilities while enhancing storage options, etc.


I never had an HR10, so I'm not really comfortable comparing it to the HR20/21s. I don't really understand what's missing.

Rich


----------



## Tom Robertson

JBernardK said:


> The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.


The S2 line had all these features 4-5 years ago. Aside from Swing, nothing new. And the S3 line took relatively forever to launch in Consumer Electronics terms. That was my point.

Back to DLBs, I miss them. From time to time, I ask DIRECTV to figure out a way to put them in. Fortunately they don't get too offended that I keep asking. And I do agree the other features they are working on will be way cool too. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rich

JBernardK said:


> How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure. sounds like it cost more with the HR20. In fact, with the HR10 you could actually buy a 500 Gb drive because TiVo figured out to how to use both drives together and D* has not.


Go to weaknees.com and you'll see what I mean.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Are you at least going to watch the Super Bowl?


The next morning.

Rich


----------



## Rich

JBernardK said:


> How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure.


You can buy the eSATAs in a desktop plug in model. In an enclosure.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Earl Bonovich said:


> Most likely, he is a user that is not one to do the upgrade himself... (aka going the path of using the PC to do all the upgrade steps with the linux CD's)... and wanted to buy the 750gb drive pre-setup from places like DVRUpgrade and Weakness.


I use the Seagate Free Agent Pro 750 eSATAs. $199 at most.

Rich


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> As I understand it, you start a normal search and bring up a item from the results. While perusing the information on that item, you can highlight an actor or director, press click and get search results that include other things from that actor or director.
> 
> I'm not sure how many other different categories you can swing on.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Oh cool .. Kinda like a pivot table. I've on occasion needed something like this


----------



## raott

Earl Bonovich said:


> Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.


As has been stated many times, people do not watch TV the same way.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raott said:


> As has been stated many times, people do not watch TV the same way.


And that is the point... I have made that point time and time and time and time and time again....

You pointed out one way of viewing it... I pointed out another, someone else pointed out another...

The chances are likely that every single one of us, uses our DVR/Viewing in different ways.

Just because one person watches and uses it one way... doesn't mean the majority or everyone does...


----------



## henryld

Earl Bonovich said:


> And that is the point... I have made that point time and time and time and time and time again....
> 
> You pointed out one way of viewing it... I pointed out another, someone else pointed out another...
> 
> The chances are likely that every single one of us, uses our DVR/Viewing in different ways.
> 
> Just because one person watches and uses it one way... doesn't mean the majority or everyone does...


Agreed and the lack of DLB's prevents me from watching TV the way I like.


----------



## woj027

When I had DLB on the DirecTV Tivo DVR I loved it. I miss it now, but I'm not going to trade in MPEG-4, or DOD (beta), or OTA (HR20) for it. And I'm definitely not jumping over to Dish or Comcast because of the lack of DLB on my HR20.

I just hope that all of this talk about DLB (I can't call it a debate) moves DLB up the Wish List and DLB shows up on my HR20 someday. I would pay the extra money to get a new and improved HR22 (making that model up) if it had everything my HR20 has (esp. OTA) and DLB. 

Until then, I read this thread and hope (the dream, the anticipation, the longing) for the day that Earl posts "DirecTV has decided to add DLB to the features available on it's DVR's” but I think the odds are about as good as the Cubs winning the World Series. But then again "Wait Till Next Year"


----------



## Dr. Booda

MikeR7 said:


> Last night I watched the Minnesota-Michigan basketball game on a recorded buffer very close to live and the 7-8 Lost recap epsisode at the same time on the live buffer, switching back and forth with the prv ch button. Works just as good or better than DLB as far as I am concerned. (I am on the latest CE software version). I honestly don't see what the fuss is about anymore. :lol:


I could probably get used to the DLB work around, but there is no way my wife ever will. Unless it's a simple one button push, the memory of how DLB worked on the HR10 will surface with nasty consequences. Maybe I need to get the protection plan to cover those outbursts.


----------



## SteelersFan_in_CA

henryld said:


> Agreed and the lack of DLB's prevents me from watching TV the way I like.


 And THOUSANDS of others!

DTV, Please give us DLB!

Should we form a petition like we did for MRV/HMO a few years ago on TCF? That really got DTV to move quickly.


----------



## boltjames

SteelersFan_in_CA said:


> And THOUSANDS of others!
> 
> DTV, Please give us DLB!
> 
> Should we form a petition like we did for MRV/HMO a few years ago on TCF? That really got DTV to move quickly.


There will be no DLB because there are far more subscribers out there who don't care about it than those who do.

Shoot not the messenger.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

boltjames said:


> There will be no DLB because there are far more subscribers out there who don't care about it than those who do.
> 
> Shoot not the messenger.
> 
> BJ


You have ABSOLUTELY no data to back that up...


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> I could probably get used to the DLB work around, but there is no way my wife ever will. Unless it's a simple one button push, the memory of how DLB worked on the HR10 will surface with nasty consequences. Maybe I need to get the protection plan to cover those outbursts.


You guys are suffering from a "paradigm". Texas Instruments almost went out of business years ago because they were convinced that LED technology was the way to go with watches, calculators, etc. Remember the watches with the blank faces that you had to push a button on to see the time? That was one of the prime examples of a movie that was made for industry to get people who were hung up on one technology to switch to a better technology, for example, LCD watches and calculators. Very effective short movie.

Rich


----------



## skimmilk

I know a lot of talk on this thread and others are comparing Tivos and HR2xs. Frankly, I don't miss much outside of DLB of my Tivo and even if I did, its neither here nor there with regards to DLB. However, this sort of issue has plagued me since the early days of cable. To explain this, most old cable boxes used to be able to flash back between two channel ranges. So I might tune to ESPN which happens to be close to NESN and use +/- to flip between the two. By pressing PREV, I could jump over to say HBO and use +/- to swap between it and SHO without losing a handle on the sports networks (just press PREV). Frankly, this is more important to me than actually pausing or rewinding anything. With so many channels out there, I can't even commit to one for any length of time. Some newer cable boxes didn't support this feature, and in turn I stuck with basic cable (which doesn't need a box) even though the cable boxes offered some nice features like guides and so forth.

While I won't switch away from DTV just for DLB, I am certainly going to not subscribe to any more sports packages. Its just impossible to commit to one game as the anchor during March Madness when there are 4 games set to conclude virtually simultaneously. Nor can my DVR detect to stop recording when my fantasy pitcher shuts it down in the 6th and start recording a Sox blowout turned extra inning nailbiter. Its a waste of money for me and a missed cash flow for DTV to be stuck to 1.5 channels.


----------



## skimmilk

rich584 said:


> You guys are suffering from a "paradigm". Texas Instruments almost went out of business years ago because they were convinced that LED technology was the way to go with watches, calculators, etc. Remember the watches with the blank faces that you had to push a button on to see the time? That was one of the prime examples of a movie that was made for industry to get people who were hung up on one technology to switch to a better technology, for example, LCD watches and calculators. Very effective short movie.
> 
> Rich


Ok. That implies that there is some alternate better than DLB out there. There is not. The presence of DLB does not prevent users from operating their DVR identically to the way the HR2xs does so now. DLB just takes the unused tuner and lets it do something instead of nothing.


----------



## jgriffin7

Earl Bonovich said:


> You most certainly can watch live TV with an HR2*...
> The debate is trying to watch 2 live events on the HR2*...
> 
> Why there is no response to your challenge... is you can't...
> If you must retain your "position" in the first live program... then you have no other choice then to record it, if you want to change the channel.


For clarity, my position is not so much trying to watch 2 live events, as is the frustration know that the other tuner is buffering, but it's flushed if I try to switch to it by keying in the channel number. My take is that the HR20 has DLB, in that it is always buffering live on two tuners. It's the switching between the two that doesn't work. So if I know what channel the other tuner is on, I know I can begin recording on it via the Guide, but I can't switch to it otherwise. If I don't know what channel the other tuner is on, I'm out of luck. Could be it's got up to 90 minutes of something good I could record, just no way for me to find out.

It's not just live viewing that's the problem, it's not begin able to know if the other tuner has something buffered I might be interested in (because it flushes it!)


----------



## boltjames

Earl Bonovich said:


> You have ABSOLUTELY no data to back that up...


The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.

While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.
> 
> While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.
> 
> BJ


I don't mean to contrary but...

You can't make an analogy using a feature that couldn't possibly exist. Not only that but DLB exists in nearly all other DVR's.

Let's see if I could create a not so cogent argument using your logic.

Hypothetically(for that matter, it's also baseless)...

The following DVRs have *DLB*:

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD 
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

From this we can conclude that every other service provider is clueless. Only Directv has any idea what the viewers want. Directv knows everything and the other providers are a bunch of dummies.

Hey...It's a theory...

Mike


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## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.
> 
> While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.
> 
> BJ


Dichotomous thinking is a valid approach to consider in some situations. Yes, the HR20 does not make toast. It is not expected to.

Yet most of the time the world is not so black or white, "there are many colors in the rainbow and I see everyone". (Excellent song from a wonderful balladeer who died way too young.) DLB is not a feature that drive away massive customers in droves when measured against the extra HD channels one can only get from DIRECTV or BUD.

What lack of DLB can do is rub some people wrong. Perhaps not droves of people, but all Consumer Electronics companies are finding that in commodity markets, little things matter. This year's CES, every TV manufacturer was pushing Style not biggest or brightest. Just so, DIRECTV may find that DLB will help more people come or remain. Not by itself perhaps, rather as something that will no longer be the camel that breaks the straw. 

Have I left because of lack of DLB? Noper. I still have an HR10 for this last season's NFL ST. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## inkahauts

I've never once seen a company recall a product and give all customers back their money simply because customers were dissatisfied with it....


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## inkahauts

skimmilk said:


> I know a lot of talk on this thread and others are comparing Tivos and HR2xs. Frankly, I don't miss much outside of DLB of my Tivo and even if I did, its neither here nor there with regards to DLB. However, this sort of issue has plagued me since the early days of cable. To explain this, most old cable boxes used to be able to flash back between two channel ranges. So I might tune to ESPN which happens to be close to NESN and use +/- to flip between the two. By pressing PREV, I could jump over to say HBO and use +/- to swap between it and SHO without losing a handle on the sports networks (just press PREV). Frankly, this is more important to me than actually pausing or rewinding anything. With so many channels out there, I can't even commit to one for any length of time. Some newer cable boxes didn't support this feature, and in turn I stuck with basic cable (which doesn't need a box) even though the cable boxes offered some nice features like guides and so forth.
> 
> While I won't switch away from DTV just for DLB, I am certainly going to not subscribe to any more sports packages. Its just impossible to commit to one game as the anchor during March Madness when there are 4 games set to conclude virtually simultaneously. Nor can my DVR detect to stop recording when my fantasy pitcher shuts it down in the 6th and start recording a Sox blowout turned extra inning nailbiter. Its a waste of money for me and a missed cash flow for DTV to be stuck to 1.5 channels.


While watching tv, press the yellow button and select prev channels.... You will be able to select from the last four channels you have tuned to quickly... Leaving you with the ability to flip between 5 channels very quickly....


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## skimmilk

inkahauts said:


> While watching tv, press the yellow button and select prev channels.... You will be able to select from the last four channels you have tuned to quickly... Leaving you with the ability to flip between 5 channels very quickly....


Thanks for the advice... I'm not saying that there aren't workarounds. My point is that the idea behind DLB has been around a long time and it frustrates me to no end when something as easy as pressing one button becomes 3-5 buttons for no reason. And complications dis-incentivize people from buying additional channels (you don't need additional channels if its difficult to switch/toggle).


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## Steve

skimmilk said:


> ITo explain this, most old cable boxes used to be able to flash back between two channel ranges. So I might tune to ESPN which happens to be close to NESN and use +/- to flip between the two. By pressing PREV, I could jump over to say HBO and use +/- to swap between it and SHO without losing a handle on the sports networks (just press PREV). Frankly, this is more important to me than actually pausing or rewinding anything.


I'm not sure I understand what it is you can no longer do. It seems to me the cable box behavior you described above is exactly duplicated (and arguably improved upon) by now hitting YELLOW and PREV, the way *inkahauts *described, and quickly selecting any one of four channels you're currently monitoring.

I'm not sure how DLB's will offer improved game monitoring capability for you, especially since the minute you switch to a third channel, one buffer will be lost. /steve


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## jheda

Most DVR's have DLB; none make toast.

Seriously BJ, give us a challenge.....



boltjames said:


> The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.


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## Rich

skimmilk said:


> Ok. That implies that there is some alternate better than DLB out there.


But there is no DVR that D* supports that can use the MPEG4 signals. Therein lies the "paradigm". The reason we were shown the movie about paradigms was to get us to "think outside the box".

To dislike an HR20 because of the lack of DLBs is a paradigm.

Those LED watches that Texas Instruments insisted on producing told time just as well as the LCD digital watches. But you had to push a button to see the time. The LED watches had an advantage over the LCD watches in that you could see the face at night when you pushed the button. Even the "back lit" LCDs were and still are hard to see at night.

Since I never watch live TV, I have no real interest in DLBs. Were I you, I would keep trying to get the DLBs instated. Keep complaining. Maybe someone will listen. The squeaky wheel...

Rich


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## sunking

jheda said:


> Most DVR's have DLB; none make toast.
> 
> Seriously BJ, give us a challenge.....
> 
> 
> 
> boltjames said:
> 
> 
> 
> The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know, he may be onto something. Perhaps it should make toast and be marketed as your kitchen receiver. Some would argue it already gets hot enough. D* does not have a simple way of driving your under the cabinet kitchen lcd tv. Hiding the receiver takes some effort. Turn it into a toaster and nobody would mind it sitting on the counter.
Click to expand...


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## skimmilk

Steve said:


> I'm not sure I understand what it is you can no longer do. It seems to me the cable box behavior you described above is exactly duplicated (and arguably improved upon) by now hitting YELLOW and PREV, the way *inkahauts *described, and quickly selecting any one of four channels you're currently monitoring.
> 
> I'm not sure how DLB's will offer improved game monitoring capability for you, especially since the minute you switch to a third channel, one buffer will be lost. /steve


My point was simply the fact that just like the weird PREV functionality of old cable boxes, DTV is missing out on my revenues (e.g. NCAA, MLB). I don't jump channels like I used to in the pre DVR days. But as for game monitoring, I would switch to 3 when 1 or 2 got stale (e.g. blowout, halftime, etc).


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## skimmilk

rich584 said:


> To dislike an HR20 because of the lack of DLBs is a paradigm.
> 
> Those LED watches that Texas Instruments insisted on producing told time just as well as the LCD digital watches. But you had to push a button to see the time. The LED watches had an advantage over the LCD watches in that you could see the face at night when you pushed the button. Even the "back lit" LCDs were and still are hard to see at night.


I totally understand your example but its not applicable in this case. In your example, its A vs B (e.g. tradeoff of easier night viewing vs. pressing a button to see during day). Now if LEDs didn't need the button press, then it would be purely an LED vs LCD paradigm selection (cost vs better night visibility). What DLB proponents argue instead is that they would either switch faster to HR2x (reduce DTVs cost/pain of maintaining MPEG2) or not switch/pay for more channels. Having DLB would not sacrifice whatever paradigm that the HR2xs follows (e.g. no revenue splitting with Tivo, MPEG4, DTV exclusive features).

If people were arguing about Tivo UI, then that would be a better example of paradigm battle (such as color buttons vs. directional; searches vs wish lists; etc).


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## Stuart Sweet

We're giving this topic a reboot... please feel free to read the new thread (stuck at the top of the HR20/HR21 forum, take the poll and discuss, subject to the new rules and guidelines. Happy hunting!


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