# picture clipped on locals



## ginahoy (Aug 29, 2008)

I have PVR 508. I occasionally notice clipped text on the right, left, and bottom of the screen. It's not obvious unless there's text at the edge of the picture, or at the bottom. But the missing area is relatively large.

During the intro to Saturday Night Live, the actor's names are displayed in a large bold font covering the entire width of the screen. I estimate the sides are clipped by at least 12% on each side. The bottom is clipped as well. If the loss is proportional in the vertical axis, at least 40% of the picture is missing!! I noticed the problem on C-Span as well.

My first thought -- this is an overscan problem with my TV. However, I just connected the 508 to a conventional 20" TV and confirmed the edges are clipped in nearly the same place. 

Is the problem with DISH head end or my receiver? 

Has anyone else experienced this problem? 

David


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## RileyOne (Nov 27, 2007)

I have noticed it on my 625 only while watching Saturday Night Live the past two weeks. Prior to that, the beginning of the show would come on what I would call full screen, and then a few seconds into SNL it would switch to what I would call a letterbox screen with a black band across the top and bottom. That hasn't happened the past two weeks though - it has remaind in the "full screen" and it is obvious that I am not seeing part of the picture on the sides. Really annoying.


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## ginahoy (Aug 29, 2008)

I see you're in MN, so this is not a local station issue, rather it must be an issue with either NBC or DISH. I don't have off-air or cable capability. If you or anyone else can check SNL this week via another non HD source, we'll know for sure.

But I'm pretty sure I've seen this on other stations. Last night during election coverage, one of the networks had a text box along the left edge of the screen, often listing state results. It was clipped off. Could have been NBC, but I'm not sure. 

And I don't think this problem is intermittent. But without an edge reference, there's no way to tell you're being 'cheated' out of more than 40% of the picture!


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## javaman (Sep 26, 2004)

I have the same problem on my locals. I have a 522 with standard def programming. What's happening is that HD content is no longer letterboxed like it was before so the sides of the picture are lopped off. Some shows suffer more than others but it's a big annoyance. I think it has to do with the recent change they made from analog to digital on the locals. You guys might try emailing DISH. I tried but never received a reply but maybe if enough voices complain they'll fix it.

[email protected]

I asked about it at another forum but they couldn't agree who was to blame DISH or the affiliates or if it could be fixed anytime soon. You think maybe they should have planned for this before making the switch.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

For national channels such as CSPAN it may be CSPAN doing the clipping. For example, the Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency the feed was provided to CSPAN as high-def in 16x9 ... THEY cropped it for their SD 4x3 presentation. (Generally noticeable only during title sequences).

For local channels one would have to do more research. I noticed my own NBC (WNDU 7092) being cropped lately instead of showing letterboxed in prime time. It seems that when our market became an "Eastern Arc" market DISH decided to grab the HD digital feed and crop it instead of using the analog feed (which is going away in just over three months) or the SD digital feed that the station provides.

At first I blamed the station, but then I compared all of the OTA signals with what DISH provides. WNDU's SD digital (16.02) feed is the same as their analog feed in prime time ... SD letterbox showing the full frame of the picture with the black bars. Their HD digital (16.01) feed is 16x9 with stretched SD when HD isn't available. I thought. perhaps, that the local station was cropping to make their own 4x3 feed but they are not. Everything the station has OTA is fine.

So it comes back to DISH and their decision to receive a HD digital signal and crop it instead of using the SD digital signal provided by the station. It is DISH's fault.

For the markets where the local station isn't providing their own SD feed or a special SD feed to satellite carriers I'd say it is just the nature of the transition. If all DISH gets is a HD feed the choice for DISH would be to letterbox the signal 24/7 (turning non-stretched SD upconverts into postage stamps) or to crop the signal they get to 4x3. As of February there will not be an analog feed to fall back on and DISH can't wait until that magic day to switch all markets.

But for the markets where an SD digital feed IS provided and DISH doesn't carry the HD DISH should use the station's SD feed.

Plenty of blame to go around ... it just needs to be researched on a case by case basis.


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## ginahoy (Aug 29, 2008)

Wow. What a mess. I didn't realize in the conversion to digital that 4:3 would be compromised. Are stations required to provide SD digital (4:3) OTA after February? Aren't many of the new sets being sold today still 4:3?

I have a 16:9 TV (Hitachi Rear Projection CRT), but my only HD source is my DVD player. As little TV that I watch, I hate to invest in an HD receiver. I currently only pay $5.95/mo for my locals service and my 508 SD receiver includes DVR without a monthly fee. That's about all TV is worth to me, so I guess I'll have to take what I get.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Local stations are required to provide one clear OTA feed in any of the 18 acceptable formats. There is no requirement to provide a HD feed nor an SD feed ... it is up to the station to decide what they do.

Most stations seem to be providing a HD feed, which is 16x9 in 720p or 1080i. Some also provide a SD feed of the same content (normally 480i or 480p) but I believe we are going to see a lot of stations "cropped" for presentation on satellite and cable.

My complaint is that if a station IS providing a SD feed and the satellite carrier is not carrying the HD feed, the satellite carrier should use the SD feed instead of cropping the HD.

We're going into a complicated time for satellite locals. Tens of millions of satellite subscribers have SD and no HD. If DISH and DirecTV were to instantly carry all of the HD feeds available what would happen to the SD subscribers? Would they simply lose their local markets when their satellite carrier converted the market to HD? To serve the masses both DISH and DirecTV (and cable systems) need to maintain the current SD delivery - but without SD signals to carry that means downconverting and in most cases cropped.

I remember on my 301 and 501 a setting in the menus for the screen dimensions (4x3 or 16x9) ... one I have never found a use for. My preference is for DISH to start using that setting ... to transmit "SD" locals that are downconverted from "HD" in a 16x9 format at LET THE CUSTOMER DECIDE if the image is letterboxed or cropped. I've wanted that option for widescreen PPVs for years but have not seen it implemented.

HD subscribers obviously are going to push for full HD carriage of all channels ... but HD subscribers are still only PART of the picture. They are outnumbered by SD subscribers - and as much as they would shout "get with the program" the expense of upgrading all SD subscribers to 100% HD compatible equipment would cut into the money DISH has available to buy and lease satellites for HD carriage. There is a balance and a trade off. DISH Network has to serve ALL of their customers, not just the elite.


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## Bowlin (Dec 8, 2003)

I've noticed a similar problem for quite some time with my All American distant network feed from Atlanta.

As has been pointed out, many prime time shows (all?) are now broadcast in a wider format. I don't know if that's true letterbox or not, but it's wider than the standard 4:3 of a regular TV. The result if you were to watch it OTA is a black band at the top and bottom of the screen, but you're getting the full width of the broadcast programming.

All American takes that signal and sometimes will stretch it vertically so that the original wide-screen version now fills a 4:3 screen. Of course, by doing that everything looks very tall and narrow — the aspect ratio is all mucked up.

I say they'll "sometimes" stretch it. I've been happily watching a show that's carried normally over the satellite and, boom-click, the screen goes blank for a second (seemingly from the source) and reappears with everything all stretched vertically. Very, VERY distracting. (My TV is an old 4:3 picture tube one that has no idea of letterbox, wide screen or anything other than 4:3, so the switching is not happening on my TV.)

I called them on it and they haven't a clue because they have no tech support, just billing/customer service. They say to call Dish for tech support, but of course when I do that, after I get to talk to someone who understands what I'm talking about they say it's All American's problem, not Dish's.

James, as you say, this is probably going to get a lot worse before it gets any better...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I suppose they could come up with a way to sense if the OTA 16x9 feed was a pillarboxed 4x3 upconvert that needed cropped or a 16x9 feed that needed letterboxing for 4x3. That would not help for my local channel because they have chosen to stretch 4x3 to fill the 16x9 frame (and provide a separate 4x3 feed that DISH refuses to use).

Gotta get that fixed. Not expecting much ... it is too easy to simply crop the HD ATSC feed to 4x3 and not think about it.


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## javaman (Sep 26, 2004)

I noticed this weekend that my local PBS station was showing This Old House, an HD broadcast, and it was letterboxed. That channel seems to have no trouble displaying HD and non-HD content properly.


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