# Dish to deliver 1080p VOD



## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN3031959520080731?rpc=44

The article mentions they will have 150 HD Channels by year end, but I find this part interesting...
*
Denver-based DISH also said it plans to be the first U.S. operator to broadcast in the highest resolution of high definition programming known as 1080p when it launches a raft of subscription packages for customers next month.

1080p technology promises the highest resolution, or best picture quality, for HD programming. DirecTV plans to offer a similar service later this year.
*

It uses the word "Broadcast" not streaming and says DirecTV will do the same later this year. Is 1080p "broadcast" coming or is this article wrong.

By the way, it says that Dish said this on Thursday...must be an early press release as this is only Wednesday...


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Only for Dish Network could an announcement of 150HD channels and 1080p turn into a somewhat negative article.:nono2:


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

MikeW said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN3031959520080731?rpc=44
> 
> The article mentions they will have 150 HD Channels by year end, but I find this part interesting...
> *
> ...


It is my understanding that the 722k that is coming out will be able to output 1080p.


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## cg7879 (Feb 26, 2008)

Hmmm.... interesting. I didn't know Dish was going to broadcast in 1080p. Yet another case of the public knowing what's going on before employees...


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## razorbackfan (Aug 18, 2002)

_ DISH added 30,000 new subscribers in the first quarter compared to DirecTV which gained 275,000.

Five analysts polled by Reuters forecast DISH would add 72,000 subscribers compared with DirecTV adding 122,000 in the second quarter which ended June 30._

Wow, that's interesting.


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## FastNOC (Sep 11, 2007)

wait, a 722k? From the article I read he made it seem like the ViP722 that is out will be able to do 1080p wth the software upgrade. am i reading it wrong?


> Current DISH Network customers with MPEG-4 HD and HD DVR receivers are being automatically upgraded and will have their systems "turbo-charged" by early August with all the features and benefits of TurboHD. DISH Network customers looking to add the industry's best HD experience can get a "turbo-charged" HD package for as little as $10 more per month.


Coming from a guy with a 52 and 60 inch LCD this is a HUGE deal.

The sucky part is the new hd channels are all movie stuff which I rarely watch. but that's OK. no arguments here.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Duh. It's VOD, which means download to the hard drive and then play it in 1080p. "Broadcasting" in anything close to 1080p would be quite expensive as far as bandwidth goes.


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

Great - VOD for a movie that's been out on Blu-Ray for months and channels no one cares about like Planet Green HD.

But AMC HD or Speed HD? Nah.


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## davcole (May 6, 2006)

Interesting!!


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

I took it as saying the 622s will also be able to do VOD and 1080p.


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

I'd like to know what kind of video and audio bit rates will be used. There's more to good quality 1080p HD video than just 1080p itself.

The 24 hour viewing period for VOD movies is another deal breaker for me. I live within a mile of two video stores, both of which rent Blu-ray Disc movies. One has 7 day BD rentals for $5.99 and gives customers a $2 credit for returning movies the next day. The other store has 5 day BD rentals for $4.99.



> Duh. It's VOD, which means download to the hard drive and then play it in 1080p. "Broadcasting" in anything close to 1080p would be quite expensive as far as bandwidth goes.


1080p video shouldn't use anymore bandwidth than 1080i programming. The major problem is the 60Hz issue. Every North American broadcast has to be in 60Hz of some type. For HD that means 720p/60 or 1080i/60. Broadcasting equipment isn't built to handle 1080p/30 or 1080p/24.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

Bobby H said:


> I'd like to know what kind of video and audio bit rates will be used. There's more to good quality 1080p HD video than just 1080p itself.
> 
> The 24 hour viewing period for VOD movies is another deal breaker for me. I live within a mile of two video stores, both of which rent Blu-ray Disc movies. One has 7 day BD rentals for $5.99 and gives customers a $2 credit for returning movies the next day. The other store has 5 day BD rentals for $4.99.
> 
> 1080p video shouldn't use anymore bandwidth than 1080i programming. The major problem is the 60Hz issue. Every North American broadcast has to be in 60Hz of some type. For HD that means 720p/60 or 1080i/60. Broadcasting equipment isn't built to handle 1080p/30 or 1080p/24.


Good point on the 24-hr limitation, not to mention if it can even be archived off the external HD.

But a VOD download is not your usual "broadcast", in theory one can download a Bluray file for playback, the only thing needed is that the HDDVR can handle it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Duh. It's VOD, which means download to the hard drive and then play it in 1080p. "Broadcasting" in anything close to 1080p would be quite expensive as far as bandwidth goes.


Good catch ... the more accurate way of putting it is "deliver" not "broadcast". DISH will deliver 1080p content to their HD DVRs.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

James Long said:


> Good catch ... the more accurate way of putting it is "deliver" not "broadcast". DISH will deliver 1080p content to their HD DVRs.


Isn't there dedicated space on the HDDVR hard drive for VOD? I remember when the 722 came out, not only did it say more recording space, but more dedicated space for VOD. So, they probably send it (I Am Legend or anything else) to the dedicated space, and when you "order" it, it becomes available, just like that.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

FastnoNOC said:


> wait, a 722k? From the article I read he made it seem like the ViP722 that is out will be able to do 1080p wth the software upgrade. am i reading it wrong?
> 
> Coming from a guy with a 52 and 60 inch LCD this is a HUGE deal.
> 
> The sucky part is the new hd channels are all movie stuff which I rarely watch. but that's OK. no arguments here.


I found out today in the more detailed release that it is a software upgrade to all VIP receivers. The 722k will be coming out "soon" and have 2 sat tuners and can have 2 modules added to have 2 OTA tuners.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Taco Lover said:


> Isn't there dedicated space on the HDDVR hard drive for VOD? I remember when the 722 came out, not only did it say more recording space, but more dedicated space for VOD. So, they probably send it (I Am Legend or anything else) to the dedicated space, and when you "order" it, it becomes available, just like that.


VOD is available immediately ... on demand ... the dedicated space is filled with programming while your receiver is in 'standby' at night. You won't know what is there until it shows up in a VOD listing - so you won't be able to order it until it is available. (It becomes available, and then you order it.)

DISHOnline is the internet version where you actually can request content and have it delivered. But VOD is the satellite forced recording service ...


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

Got it.


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## ZBoomer (Feb 21, 2008)

Man, this is cool... except my VIP622 won't sync via HDMI to my brand new Pioneer Plasma, lol. I've been running component, and I bet it won't do 1080p that way.

Bummer.


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

kucharsk said:


> Great - VOD for a movie that's been out on Blu-Ray for months and channels no one cares about like Planet Green HD.
> 
> But AMC HD or Speed HD? Nah.


Yeah, but compared to buying a $400 Blu-ray player, i'll take it


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## zedug (Oct 23, 2006)

ZBoomer said:


> I've been running component, and I bet it won't do 1080p that way.


It will.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

James Long said:


> Good catch ... the more accurate way of putting it is "deliver" not "broadcast". DISH will deliver 1080p content to their HD DVRs.


Although, if we are going to be into semantics... Since the VOD is being pushed out via satellite same as their channels are... technically you could say "broadcasting". The distinction here really is just that you can't watch the VOD movie as it is being broadcast like you can other channels... You have to wait until the broadcast is over, then play it back.

But technically... the claim of "broadcast" is true.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

zedug said:


> It will.


Well... Technically 1080p over component should work. Unfortunately, most things do not allow it to happen in large part due to the screaming of the movie studios who don't want it except over the encrypted HDMI digital connections.


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## danestor1 (Jul 27, 2008)

Is it necessary to an HDMI cable connected to 772 for the HD on DISH to operate correctly? New person question, sorry.:lol:


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

> Well... Technically 1080p over component should work. Unfortunately, most things do not allow it to happen in large part due to the screaming of the movie studios who don't want it except over the encrypted HDMI digital connections.


I can't speak for the PPV stuff since I rarely ever use it.

Blu-ray players have the ability to honor ICT (Image Constraint Token) limits for component video output. 1080p material would be output at only 480p. So far, no Blu-ray movie releases have applied ICT to 1080p HD video streams. Component video connections should be able to carry 1080p streams just fine. The only limits I can think of regarding that format is 1080p/24 might potentially have issues going out over component. HDMI is needed for next-generation audio formats (Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD, multichannel LPCM).


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

zedug said:


> It will.


Very few TV's will support it. And I doubt the Dish receivers will support it except for HDMI/HDCP connections.


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## krazy k (Apr 27, 2003)

My question on all of this is "is the 722vip able to output HDMI 1.3"
i am intrested to see if this receiver can do dolby true hd or Dts hd ma.

I am thinking it cant...
but maybe i am wrong....
krazy


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

I don't know what version of HDMI is supported by the ViP722 and ViP622 receivers.

I strongly doubt Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD will ever be used on any HD satellite channels or VOD feeds. Both formats consume far too much bandwidth (usually between 4 Mb/s and 7 Mb/s) to be practical for cable or satellite at this time.

As it stands, it seems like the bit rate of lossy Dolby Digital audio on many satellite broadcasts is likely running lower than that of DVD. The clarity, dynamic range and channel separation isn't as good. Dolby Digital 5.1 audio on DVD typically runs at 448 kilobits per second. DD 5.1 can be encoded at lower rates, like 384 kb/s, 320 kb/s, 256 kb/s and even a mere 192 kb/s.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

But this isn't normal sat. broadcast, it is downloaded in the background to your HD. While I also doubt that TrueHD will be available, we'll have to wait and see.


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## krazy k (Apr 27, 2003)

For sure ,,,
who knows maybe Sat will be turning a new corner when it comes to Hd and 5.1.......
Atleast i wont need to get a high speed hdmi cable for my VIP rec..


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## HDlover (Jul 28, 2006)

1080p, where's the rest of the resolution? Is it going to be 1920? I doubt it because they haven't mentioned it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Do they ever? It seems all promotion of HD is one dimensional.


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

It seems only "computers geeks" understand screen (or desktop) dimensions in terms of two axis of pixel counts (1920 X 1080, 1280 X 720, 1680 X 1050, 2560 X 1200, etc.). Computer monitors are often sold using those terms -along with silly alphabet soup acronyms like WSXGA+ or WQXGA. At least computer monitors aren't sold with misleading terms like "1080p."


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## ZBoomer (Feb 21, 2008)

Has anyone been able to see anything in their receiver having anything to do with 1080p?

I've looked at the VOD movies available, PPV channels, DishOnline, etc. I don't see diddly related to 1080p anywhere, and it's Aug 2...

Yes, I have the "Turbo!" blast going on channel 75, but that's all talk, where's the do?

(VIP622)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The do is coming ... watch for channel 501 showing "I Am Legend".

It will take a software release to get any channel 501 showing for you. That software rolled out to some people yesterday ... if it works DISH will expand the circle to more people. People who have the new software are reporting "Turbocharged" logos on the screen saver. Until you get that, be patient!


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Be very patient, because as I noted on the L6.10 thread, it doesn't work and technical support said they were aware of the problem. They said it would be fixed by "tomorrow" meaning today. On my time it's not quite 11:00 pm, but they haven't fixed it yet.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Range is R0083143404-83958735.


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

anybody with the new SW tune to 501?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Jeff_DML said:


> anybody with the new SW tune to 501?


It's there now for real, but I don't want to buy anything, so can't tell you much.


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## scottg78 (Aug 2, 2008)

zedug said:


> It will.


It won't.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

phrelin said:


> It's there now for real, but I don't want to buy anything, so can't tell you much.


To followup, when I go to the one movie indicating 1080p, it says it has to test for 1080p capability. Since my old plasma can't display 1080p and I don't have HDMI for that DRM handshake I won't be able to tell you anything.


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## EscapeVelocity (Jun 11, 2008)

While the technology part of this is interesting, this is going to be a big flop, like SACD and DVD-A.....and its even more gimmicky than those were, its no Blu-ray, which itself is not and will not dominate the market like SD DVD did, because just as MP3 succeeded in a market full of CD and competing against SACD and DVD-A, Blu-ray is a resource hog, and smaller easier transmitted standards wont disappear and in fact will flourish, along with SD DVD and Blu-ray.

On the fly broadcast, full 1080i is good enough.


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## EscapeVelocity (Jun 11, 2008)

What is so hard about Native Resolution and Original Aspect Ratio?

One wonders.


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## ssmith10pn (Jul 6, 2005)

> The do is coming ... watch for channel 501 showing "I Am Legend".


Guess I'll have to wait before I try it. Already have that one on Blu-Ray :lol:


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Regardless of your DVR model [622/722] and/or serial number [R00...] you will not see anything on ch 501 [VODSV] because:
- the channel in engineering mode
- no PID assigned to the service [channel]
- no data streaming.

There is short history of the service [channel]:
- 6/4/08 10:32:47 am PDT - new VODSV with a number 541 did appear in system tables
- 7/7/08 1:05:45pm PDT - the service changed number to 501.


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

From the "other" site

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/143908-how-dishs-1080p-going-work.html

24p according to this

http://www.cable360.net/features360/ct/30976.html


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

> While the technology part of this is interesting, this is going to be a big flop, like SACD and DVD-A.....


Bad analogy. DVD-A and SACD never went anywhere primarily because the music industry didn't provide either format with a steady supply of new, popular music produced in high resolution. The MP3 thing really has nothing to do with it.



> and its even more gimmicky than those were, its no Blu-ray, which itself is not and will not dominate the market like SD DVD did


Give it a couple more years or so. SD DVD is absolutely doomed in the long run.

Once people get spoiled to true high definition quality material they don't want to have anything to do with SD stuff. Old 480p DVDs will seem like black and white TV after while.

Also, if anamorphic 480p was truly "good enough" for everyone none of us would even be bothering upgrading to high definition quality pay TV.

Blu-ray is also no resource hog. Low bitrate HD movies, like those 720p things sold by iTunes, are rife with problems. We put up with macro-blocking, color banding and lots of other issues in HD satellite TV as a trade-off for programming variety. When a customer buys a movie to own he shouldn't have to put up with any of that garbage at all. Blu-ray does a much better job on delivering blemish free HD than anything else on the market. The only digital format any better is JPEG2000-based 2K digital cinema.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

So, my TV only does 1080i, will I see any difference if I buy a 1080p PPV? Will a Blu-ray player work with my TV?


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

jclewter79 said:


> So, my TV only does 1080i, will I see any difference if I buy a 1080p PPV? Will a Blu-ray player work with my TV?


nope and yes it will work with your tv


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Jeff_DML said:


> nope and yes it will work with your tv


Ok, Thanks. So, if I got a blu-ray player, it would just convert to 1080i? It is only a 31" so I doubt that you could see the difference p or i on it if it could do 1080p.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Bobby H said:


> Give it a couple more years or so. SD DVD is absolutely doomed in the long run.
> 
> Once people get spoiled to true high definition quality material they don't want to have anything to do with SD stuff. Old 480p DVDs will seem like black and white TV after while.
> 
> Also, if anamorphic 480p was truly "good enough" for everyone none of us would even be bothering upgrading to high definition quality pay TV.


I may be nuts, but the video quality from a standard DVD seems significantly better than the SD signal I get from Dish even on my ViP722.

Also, the HD from Dish is somewhat sharper on my 42" plasma than a DVD. But as the editors from Cnet have noted, you really have to have a 50" or larger TV to benefit from an increase in resolution between 1080i and 1080p. And if our TV converts that 480p DVD to 720p or 1080i, I'm not going to see much difference on a 42" screen between that and a Blu-ray.

In my home "theater" a 42" TV is the largest I can use. Seating is 7' away. When I replace my old plasma, I suppose I'll like get a 1080p TV because that's what will be available. And when my DVD-changer dies, I suppose I'll concede to acquiring a Blu-ray.

But it isn't going to be as important to me as shifting to HD, or the change to color from black and white.


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## Bobby H (Mar 23, 2008)

480p SD DVDs often run at bit rates between 5Mb/s and 10Mb/s. While that may not seem like very much, it's actually using more data bandwidth than one of Apple's 720p iTunes "HD" movies. Some Apple iTunes "HD" movies can fit onto a single 4.7GB DVD layer.

Good quality, blemish free, 1080p HDTV demands quite a lot of data bandwidth. Uncompressed 1080p HD material runs at bit rates over 1.4 Gigabits per second.

Regarding Blu-ray players and what kinds of TVs can work with them: most Blu-ray players will work with any kind of TV. They can even output plain 480p NTSC video to an old standard definition TV. That's something to think about if one's old DVD player breaks and a replacement is needed -even if the customer doesn't have HDTV yet. Any Blu-ray player can play DVDs too.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

Okay, so I finally got the new SW and channel 501 shows up, but I Am Legend is not one of the choices? I have a 1080p HDTV, and I want to test it out. What gives?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The channel doesn't carry any data, no stream, no EPG.
Could you make pictures of it in EPG and when tune on it, then after Info button ?


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

I finally got turbocharged according to my screen saver, tuned to 501 and still do not get it


DVD are MPEG2 versus I assume Apple HD programs are AVC(MPEG4) so not a apple to apples comparision, MPEG4 nowadays is at least twice as efficient as MPEG2. Edit: no saying the apple stuff is high quality, blueray is the reference quality.


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## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

Jeff_DML said:


> I finally got turbocharged according to my screen saver, tuned to 501 and still do not get it
> 
> DVD are MPEG2 versus I assume Apple HD programs are AVC(MPEG4) so not a apple to apples comparision, MPEG4 nowadays is at least twice as efficient as MPEG2. Edit: no saying the apple stuff is high quality, blueray is the reference quality.


AVC is just H.264 which is what Blu-Ray uses and it's an open format, however the quality, bitrates, resolution can all be encoded differently....

I just got the software update as well. I see two new VODs on the 501 channels, 10,000 BC and Fools Gold, both are 6.99. I might just get I Am Legend for the 2.99 price to see if I notice any difference in quality, but I sure don't want to see either of those for $7 a pop.


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

and blueray doesnt run at in the single digits bitrate, guess they could if they want to. I have seen movies run in the mid 30, not bitstarving at those rates.


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

I also see just 5 VOD at 501, none are I am Legend. All are $6.99. Does anyone actually buy these at that price? If they'd make them all $2.99 or $3.99 they'd do a LOT more sales. Anything over $3.99 I just stop at Blockbuster (or join the mail order club, I just tried it for 2 months and ended up paying 97 cents per rental). The ONLY way I'd pay $6.99 is if it were a new theater release (like the Dark Knight), the same day it came to the theater.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

P Smith said:


> The channel doesn't carry any data, no stream, no EPG.
> Could you make pictures of it in EPG and when tune on it, then after Info button ?


Sorry, were you talking to me?

Can't right now. It lists 6 or so movies... Drillbit Taylor, Bucket List... all of the ones in the DishOnDemand section. I have not tried to tune to it to see what happens.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

tcatdbs said:


> I also see just 5 VOD at 501, none are I am Legend. All are $6.99. Does anyone actually buy these at that price? If they'd make them all $2.99 or $3.99 they'd do a LOT more sales. Anything over $3.99 I just stop at Blockbuster (or join the mail order club, I just tried it for 2 months and ended up paying 97 cents per rental). The ONLY way I'd pay $6.99 is if it were a new theater release (like the Dark Knight), the same day it came to the theater.


Yeah, no way I'd pay $6.99. I've got AppleTV and can rent an HD movie for $3.99 or so.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> The channel doesn't carry any data, no stream, no EPG.
> Could you make pictures of it in EPG and when tune on it, then after Info button ?


501 isn't a "real" channel ... just a pointer to some of the Movies on Demand content that is available on the receivers. L610 adds the feature (IIRC).

On Demand movies appear on multiple channels 501 with no particular start time. Selecting the channel in the EPG pops up the rental box with expiration information and costs. Once rented the movie is flagged in the EPG as rented until the rental period expires.

The key is that these are basically Movies on Demand VOD just with a better presentation (no clunky Interactive TV interface) and better location (on multiple channels 501 right next to the PPVs). One key feature is that you can watch one of these VODs while something else is recording ... with Movies on Demand one couldn't do that.

Sorry, no screen shots available. My receiver isn't with me at the moment.


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## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

Good deal, this newer, better, faster (wat) VOD sounds good... so I'm guessing mine just hasn't downloaded _I am Legend_ yet. I would probably rent a *lot* of these movies at the 2.99 price point, but not at 6.99. I have to wonder if it's Dish being greedy or is that what the studios are requiring them to charge? Oh also the new 24 hour limitation think is a real pain in the ass. Even so, if it was cheaper I'd just make sure to have the time to watch it that day I guess.


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## kcushing (Aug 5, 2008)

I can't wait to try 1080p. When I first got my HD receiver, I set it to 1080i. The "I" is for "interlacing", which means that every other line is drawn, and on the next frame, the lines in between are filled in. So in each frame you are really getting half the 1080, or 540. "p" is for progressive which means it draws the whole thing in one frame. So 720p is really better than 1080i. In addition to this, any HD channel was produced with "p"(720 or 1080) and regular TV is produced with "i". The original TV picture tubes had to interlace, or you could see the screen flicker. In other words it couldn't draw progressive fast enough. Today we can draw 1080 progressively without visible flicker. The problem lies in that when you play something progressively that was produced with interlace, you can sometimes see a shift of the image on every other line. You can especially notice this when you pause a non-HD channel when your receiver is set to display progressively. But you still want to set your receiver to display progressive. Why? Because if you are watching HD sports or anything HD that moves quickly and your are sending interlacing frames to your HDTV you will see the frames. You will feel like you are watching a slide show rather than live sports. Your HDTV will get one frame of the interlacing, wait for the next frame that fills in the gaps, and then show the picture. So if you don't have the ability to show 1080p, don't use 1080i, use 720p!!!! 1080i is really just 540p at half speed!!!


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

Kind of what I was thinking, although I do not notice any difference in 720p and 1080i on my 50" plasma. I think I'll switch mine back to 720p, since my TV is 768 (although is 1080i and 1080p compatable). I'll probably try anything in 1080p they sell for $2.99, but that's about it.

Can these be recordered and stored on an extermal drive? That might make them worth $4.99 or $5.99.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

VODs cannot be copied. You might be able to dub them in standard def (AV cables to DVD burner/capture card) but they are intended to be one night rentals - returned to the "store" or deleted by the machine in 24 hours.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

kcushing said:


> I can't wait to try 1080p. When I first got my HD receiver, I set it to 1080i. The "I" is for "interlacing", which means that every other line is drawn, and on the next frame, the lines in between are filled in. So in each frame you are really getting half the 1080, or 540. "p" is for progressive which means it draws the whole thing in one frame. So 720p is really better than 1080i. In addition to this, any HD channel was produced with "p"(720 or 1080) and regular TV is produced with "i". The original TV picture tubes had to interlace, or you could see the screen flicker. In other words it couldn't draw progressive fast enough. Today we can draw 1080 progressively without visible flicker. The problem lies in that when you play something progressively that was produced with interlace, you can sometimes see a shift of the image on every other line. You can especially notice this when you pause a non-HD channel when your receiver is set to display progressively. But you still want to set your receiver to display progressive. Why? Because if you are watching HD sports or anything HD that moves quickly and your are sending interlacing frames to your HDTV you will see the frames. You will feel like you are watching a slide show rather than live sports. Your HDTV will get one frame of the interlacing, wait for the next frame that fills in the gaps, and then show the picture. So if you don't have the ability to show 1080p, don't use 1080i, use 720p!!!! 1080i is really just 540p at half speed!!!


There is just so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to begin. I keep thinking we are past people not knowing what interlaced and progressive is and the difference between that and the actual resolution of the image itself... but stuff like this keeps popping up with the same-old completely wrong information.

In short...

1. 1080i does NOT in any way shape or form "=" 540p.
2. 720p is NOT higher resolution than 1080i.

For more in-depth analysis of why your post is wrong, I encourage you to search the forums here for discussions OR visit AVS Forums and search there OR actually search online (or at a library) for technical specifications and implications of how broadcast TV actually works.


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## Bichon (Jun 5, 2003)

kcushing said:


> When I first got my HD receiver, I set it to 1080i. The "I" is for "interlacing", which means that every other line is drawn, and on the next frame, the lines in between are filled in. So in each frame you are really getting half the 1080, or 540. "p" is for progressive which means it draws the whole thing in one frame. So 720p is really better than 1080i.


Wrong. 1080i has more information. Every 1/30 of a second, the 1080i signal sends two 540 line fields comprising a 1920x1080 pixel frame. In the same 1/30 of a second, the 720p signal sends a single 1080x720 pixel frame.



> In addition to this, any HD channel was produced with "p"(720 or 1080) and regular TV is produced with "i". The original TV picture tubes had to interlace, or you could see the screen flicker. In other words it couldn't draw progressive fast enough. Today we can draw 1080 progressively without visible flicker. The problem lies in that when you play something progressively that was produced with interlace, you can sometimes see a shift of the image on every other line. You can especially notice this when you pause a non-HD channel when your receiver is set to display progressively. But you still want to set your receiver to display progressive. Why? Because if you are watching HD sports or anything HD that moves quickly and your are sending interlacing frames to your HDTV you will see the frames. You will feel like you are watching a slide show rather than live sports. Your HDTV will get one frame of the interlacing, wait for the next frame that fills in the gaps, and then show the picture. So if you don't have the ability to show 1080p, don't use 1080i, use 720p!!!! 1080i is really just 540p at half speed!!!


Nope, with the exception of a handful of broadcasters (like ABC and ESPN) that send 720p signals, the vast majority of broadcasters send interlaced 1080i, 480i, or analog 525 line interlaced. Since your fixed panel display (LCD, plasma, DLP) can only show a progressive signal, that means something is going to have to do the de-interlacing. If you set your satellite receiver to 720p, it's the satellite receiver doing the de-interlacing. If you set it to 1080i, it's the TV that's doing the de-interlacing. In many cases, the TV does a better job.

I'll also point out that all films and most HD content is shot at 24 frames per second. When processing such content, a decent de-interlacer will recognize the 3:2 cadence used by the telecine process, insure that the even and odd fields are pulled from the same original frame, completely eliminating those pesky de-interlacing artifacts.


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## paja (Oct 23, 2006)

James Long said:


> The do is coming ... watch for channel 501 showing "I Am Legend".
> 
> It will take a software release to get any channel 501 showing for you. That software rolled out to some people yesterday ... if it works DISH will expand the circle to more people. People who have the new software are reporting "Turbocharged" logos on the screen saver. Until you get that, be patient!


James, help me a bit. I have a 622 (I have the everything aavailable and hd package) but I'm not getting channel 501. Why not??


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Have you read here only 722 with L6.10 connected to 1080p TV after Aug 9 will see the movie ?


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## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Have you read here only 722 with L6.10 connected to 1080p TV after Aug 9 will see the movie ?


I must have missed that Aug. 9 date... I thought it was starting August 1st for some reason. I'll keep an eye out after the 9th then.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Bichon said:


> Wrong. 1080i has more information. Every 1/30 of a second, the 1080i signal sends two 540 line fields comprising a 1920x1080 pixel frame. In the same 1/30 of a second, the 720p signal sends a single 1080x720 pixel frame.


One small correction: Every 1/30 of a second 720p sends two 1280X720 pixel frames. 720p sends 1 full frame every 1/60 of a second.

Pixels per frame:

720p60 - 1280X720=921,600 pixels in 1/60 of a second.

720p60 - 1280X720X2=1,843,200 pixels in 1/30 of a second (two frames).

1080i30 - 1920X1080=2,073,600 pixels in 1/30 of a second.

1080i has about 12% more information than 720p.


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## swissy (Oct 26, 2007)

A small point, but if kcushing's plasma has a fixed resolution of 768 and it can accept 1080p, then his internal scaler probably upconverts all signals to 1080p before changing them to 1366x768 (50" plasma). This is how Panasonic does it so it could be different for other brands, but it is pretty common none the less.

So if everything is first scaled to 1080p, that is the best native resolution to send the display. Then if you decide to send it something other than native 1080p or an upconverted signal, you have to decide which component has the better de-interlacer and scaler.

I hope this isn't too OT.


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

ok are the 622's getting this update as well?


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## johnsbin (Nov 14, 2002)

Deke Rivers said:


> ok are the 622's getting this update as well?


Yes - the updates should be out be end of next week, so I hear.


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## johnsbin (Nov 14, 2002)

HDMe said:


> There is just so much wrong with this post that I don't even know where to begin. I keep thinking we are past people not knowing what interlaced and progressive is and the difference between that and the actual resolution of the image itself... but stuff like this keeps popping up with the same-old completely wrong information.
> 
> In short...
> 
> ...


There is a very popular Youtube video where some guy tells everyone that 720p is a higher resolution than 1080i and goes through the whole bizarre "540p" garbage.

Today's source for authoritative information - wikipedia and youtube.

Simply amazing...


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

CoolGui said:


> I must have missed that Aug. 9 date... I thought it was starting August 1st for some reason. I'll keep an eye out after the 9th then.


I have the release and the movie is a choice on 501. I do not have 1080p nor an HDMI connection. So it's there, just doesn't do me any good as a 1080p.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

phrelin said:


> I have the release and the movie is a choice on 501. I do not have 1080p nor an HDMI connection. So it's there, just doesn't do me any good as a 1080p.


Heh, I have the release and the movie is not a choice on 501. I do have 1080p and an HDMI connection. So it's not there, and that doesn't do me any good.

:lol:


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Taco Lover said:


> Heh, I have the release and the movie is not a choice on 501. I do have 1080p and an HDMI connection. So it's not there, and that doesn't do me any good.
> 
> :lol:


Good thing you have a sense of humor. They'll probably download it to you tonight. Right?


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## kcushing (Aug 5, 2008)

Jim5506 said:


> One small correction: Every 1/30 of a second 720p sends two 1280X720 pixel frames. 720p sends 1 full frame every 1/60 of a second.
> 
> Pixels per frame:
> 
> ...


This may be true. I reallize I wasn't at all takeing at all into consideration the horizontal resolution. But all I know is I can't watch sports in 1080i because of all of the stop motion. I have to step down to 720p so that as the camera scans the field, it does so smoothly. My set is capable of 1080p


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## kcushing (Aug 5, 2008)

My receiver's screen-saver shows that I have been upgraded, but my setup still can only go up to 1080i. So what did the upgrade do??

I guess I still have to stick with 720p. 30 frames per second just isn't fast enough for quick action like sports. You may get more resolution with 1080i, but you miss too much between the frames. I would rather have twice the frames per second and have quick action look smooth. You get higher resolution with 1080i, although not as much as you think when you measure it in pixels per second. 1920 x 1080i x 30 fps = 62,208,000 pps and 1280 x 720p x 60 fps = 55,296,000 pps. So there is still more resolution even in pixels per second, but not much more. And if you don't consider the horizontal resolution, you get 1080i x 30 = 32,400 lines per second which is not nearly as good as 720p x 60 = 43,200 lines per second. Maybe that's not a fair comparison considering most HD resolution is in the width. But getting 60 frames per second instead of 30 frames can mean the difference of being able to tell that a fast ball made it by the hitter, or that a soccer ball missed and bounced into the back of the net from behind rather than from the front. I will only choose the highest resolution that gives me at least 60 frames per second.


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

kcushing said:


> My receiver's screen-saver shows that I have been upgraded, but my setup still can only go up to 1080i. So what did the upgrade do??
> 
> I guess I still have to stick with 720p. 30 frames per second just isn't fast enough for quick action like sports. You may get more resolution with 1080i, but you miss too much between the frames. I would rather have twice the frames per second and have quick action look smooth. You get higher resolution with 1080i, although not as much as you think when you measure it in pixels per second. 1920 x 1080i x 30 fps = 62,208,000 pps and 1280 x 720p x 60 fps = 55,296,000 pps. So there is still more resolution even in pixels per second, but not much more. And if you don't consider the horizontal resolution, you get 1080i x 30 = 32,400 lines per second which is not nearly as good as 720p x 60 = 43,200 lines per second. Maybe that's not a fair comparison considering most HD resolution is in the width. But getting 60 frames per second instead of 30 frames can mean the difference of being able to tell that a fast ball made it by the hitter, or that a soccer ball missed and bounced into the back of the net from behind rather than from the front. I will only choose the highest resolution that gives me at least 60 frames per second.


problem is most HD channels are 1080i not 720p(I think FOX,ESPN,ABC). If you set your 622/722 to 720p on a 1080i channels now you are getting the same 30fpg with added benefit of less resolution.


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## kcushing (Aug 5, 2008)

Jeff_DML said:


> problem is most HD channels are 1080i not 720p(I think FOX,ESPN,ABC). If you set your 622/722 to 720p on a 1080i channels now you are getting the same 30fpg with added benefit of less resolution.


ESPN puts it like this: 'Progressive scan technology produces better images for the fast moving orientation of sports television. Simply put, with 104 mph fastballs in baseball and 120 mph shots on goal in hockey, the line-by-line basis of progressive scan technology better captures the inherent fast action of sports. For ESPN, progressive scan technology makes perfect sense.'

I'm not sure about my locals, but I've been watcing the Olympics on my local NBC channel through the dish, and I haven't noticed the stop motion action that I had when my receiver set at 1080i.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

kcushing said:


> My receiver's screen-saver shows that I have been upgraded, but my setup still can only go up to 1080i. So what did the upgrade do??


The upgrade allows the receiver to play back previously recorded content ("Video on Demand" downloads) in 1080p. It does not enable 1080p live output or upconversion of content to 1080p.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The mode is too tough for its guts - no TV2, nothing works simultaneously while you're watching 1080p VOD movie from local disk.


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## kcushing (Aug 5, 2008)

James Long said:


> The upgrade allows the receiver to play back previously recorded content ("Video on Demand" downloads) in 1080p. It does not enable 1080p live output or upconversion of content to 1080p.





P Smith said:


> The mode is too tough for its guts - no TV2, nothing works simultaneously while you're watching 1080p VOD movie from local disk.


That explains it. Thanks. I was a little surprised when I bought my 722 earlier this year that 1080p wasn't available. It's kind of cool that they could give it in an upgrade. But I think I'd rather just go blu-ray. I've read blu-ray has higher bandwidth anyway, giving you less anomalies during high speed action. Besides, I plan on getting a PS3 anyway. It is a blu-ray player.


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