# Are HIGH temps causing the DVR issues?



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

I am hypothesizing that there may be a relationship between blank, gray, and IKD recordings and internal box temps. After being with D* for ten years I jumped to E* ATT Homezone for four months last year. This box was a nightmare and it was often due to high temps. In the end, I had five auxiliary fans to get the box sort of stable. I remember then that E* support admitted temps around 127 or above would cause errors. I thought even lower temps would.

I came back to D* last October and have had little trouble with my HR20-100. When I first installed it I added some extra cooling a la E*, but finally discovered a modified PCI card slot fan pulling out of the right rear side vent would keep the box under 100. In April I added a 1TB Cavalry eSATA drive and my problems began. With the Cavalry had three issues. One was two drives were just plain bad, two was that the Cavalry connector was a loose fit, and three was the Cavalry ran hot to the touch. While waiting for the Cavalry's to be RMA'ed, I had no issues running with the internal drive. Box temps were generally 98.

After receiving my third Cavalry I found it kind of stable until the box received the slightest bump locking up the HR20-100. The eSATA cable would just not seat snuggly. Taking drastic measures, I removed the drive from the Cavalry case and eSATA to SATA cabled it directly to the box. For power I am using an idle PC 350w power supply I had in my PC graveyard. Yes, the setup is is very ugly. BTW, to get the PC power supply to turn on you must ground/short the green motherboard connector wire to any of the black ones.

Bottom line for right now is that I am having no errors, The HR20-100 is 92 degrees, I assume because the internal drive is inactive, and the bare Cavalry drive, a 1TB Western Digital Green, is cool to the touch.

So if you are having recording errors and your temps are in the teens or above, you might see if add-on cooling helps. All the boxes cool differently so make sure you are supplementing the OEM airflow. I have added a Radio Shack adjustable output wall brick to the fan. This allows you to control the airflow and also quiet the fan. I thought the PC power supply would be noisy but isn't. I guess that is because it has very little demand placed on it.

Anyway, that's my theory.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

My HR21 will get to 120 tops and I haven't had problems with it for 10 months now.

While I use a cooling fan on my HR20's, many people don't and they haven't had these problems even with the HR20's running at 127. Even with the fans, my HR20's will run around 115 +/- 3 degrees as I don't run the fans at full speed to cut down on noise.


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

I recently realized my HR20-700 was getting up to dangerous temps (135-137) after adding a Denon reciever to that enclosed cabinet... But I still didn't have any issues...


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## trdrjeff (Dec 3, 2007)

My problem went away when I deleted _An Inconvenient Truth_ :grin:


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## steve053 (May 11, 2007)

schneid said:


> ...a modified PCI card slot fan pulling out of the right rear side vent would keep the box under 100.


I'd be interested in seeing a picture and a link to the fan that you are using. I've wondered about the temps myself.


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## MikeekiM (Oct 1, 2006)

trdrjeff said:


> My problem went away when I deleted _An Inconvenient Truth_ :grin:


LOL...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

There's no firm evidence that high temps cause problems in the HR series. I know the exhaustive testing that goes on with the models, and there's no reason to think a properly operating HR2x without some sort of existing hardware problem would be affected by high temps. 

In the past I had a USB fan connected to my HR20-700 and turned it off a while back with no ill effects.


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

I know one of mine starts making a nasty high pitch whining sound when it gets up to about 128-129 degrees. I put a laptop cooler on it and have no more issue.


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## Thaedron (Jun 29, 2007)

Not sure I totally follow your current setup, but...

Do you still have a drive connected to the internal SATA connector of your HR2X? From all of the discussions previously, the "system temp" actually comes from the drive.


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## MikeekiM (Oct 1, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> ...when it gets up to about 128-189 degrees.


Wow... that's a broad range!


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I have two HR20-100. The one downstairs is on a UPS and is usually around 105-110. It does have an eSATA but I have not tried to measure it. The one upstairs is in a closet with no UPS and usually runs a little hotter, somewhere in the 115 ish range. Both have occaisional problems with blank recordings, but they are not locking up all the time wither.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Thaedron said:


> Not sure I totally follow your current setup, but...
> 
> Do you still have a drive connected to the internal SATA connector of your HR2X? From all of the discussions previously, the "system temp" actually comes from the drive.


No. I am using the box eSATA to the bare drive's SATA. You need a male eSATA connector on the box end and a male SATA on the drive end.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

steve053 said:


> I'd be interested in seeing a picture and a link to the fan that you are using. I've wondered about the temps myself.


I snapped off the metal part and double-sided taped it to the right rear side vent on the HR20-100. It pulls out and blows to the rear.

Here is a link to one here:

http://www.pcconnection.com/IPA/Sho...1089&oext=1038A&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=161089

They are cheap and widely available.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> I know one of mine starts making a nasty high pitch whining sound when it gets up to about 128-189 degrees. I put a laptop cooler on it and have no more issue.


Shaggy, is that DVR on your roof? How could you possibly get the temp up that high.? Don't doubt you, just confused. The highest temp I have seen on my six 20/21s is 123 degrees on one that is in a cabinet. The others range from 77 to 110.

Rich


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Shaggy, is that DVR on your roof? How could you possibly get the temp up that high.? Don't doubt you, just confused. The highest temp I have seen on my six 20/21s is 123 degrees on one that is in a cabinet. The others range from 77 to 110.
> 
> Rich


Mine was hovering between 135-137 last week...


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MikeekiM said:


> Wow... that's a broad range!


That's an understatement if I ever heard one, Mike. Something has to be malfunctioning to generate that kind of heat, perhaps the infernal drive? Wonder how long he's had that unit?

Mine have temps that, obviously, are a result of the ambient temps of their locations. My hidey hole usually is about 60-65 degrees (we just went thru a couple 100 degree days, and I have had to have the heat dish on just to sit here) and the 21 reads a constant 77. Both 21s I have had in this location read the same 77 degrees. Three other 20s are right in front of an air conditioning outlet and read about 110 and one (the hottest at 123) is in a cabinet sharing space with an eSATA.

I took the fan out of a TiVo and kept the TiVo in my hidey hole for a few days to see what would happen. After several days it finally overheated and the thermal protection kicked in and the unit powered partway down and a dialog screen appeared stating that due to hi internal temps the unit would not run. The last time I checked, probably a year or so ago, the 20/21s don't show a reason for shutting down, they just shut down and I would imagine that as the internal temp drops, they would start up again.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AirRocker said:


> Mine was hovering between 135-137 last week...


Room warm?

Rich


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

I just checked mine. Its in a cabinet and has external seagate 750. Temp is 120 degrees.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

finaldiet said:


> I just checked mine. Its in a cabinet and has external seagate 750. Temp is 120 degrees.


I have had no problems with the 20 in the cabinet that maintains a temp of 123. And I am using an FAP too. We've gone over the temperature issue several times on several threads and it seems like a non-issue to me.

The OP did put up a good, logical, well written argument. The internal temp of a 20/21 surprised me because they run much cooler than a TiVo (SD), as I recall.

And, hopefully, Shaggy will have something interesting to tell us about how he managed to heat a 20/21 up to 189 degrees. There's gotta be a good story here.

Rich


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## Greg Alsobrook (Apr 2, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Room warm?
> 
> Rich


I keep it 68-70 in my house... It was in an enclosed cabinet... My new Denon puts off a good bit of heat...  ... I have a solution on the way... should be here tomorrow...


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

MikeekiM said:


> Wow... that's a broad range!


:lol: 128-129 :lol:


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Something has to be malfunctioning to generate that kind of heat, perhaps the infernal drive?


Gotta watch out for those infernal drives. Perhaps that's what's causing all the problems? :lol:


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

OK, I checked the downstairs machine last night with my IR thermometer. The screen read 110. Aiming at the back as close as I could get got me a high reading of 106. I checked the surface of the eSATA drive (a Calgary 750 gig) and the high reading was 118. Of course, this is reaching around cables and such so I am sure it could be a little higher.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I have had no problems with the 20 in the cabinet that maintains a temp of 123. And I am using an FAP too. We've gone over the temperature issue several times on several threads and it seems like a non-issue to me.
> 
> The OP did put up a good, logical, well written argument. The internal temp of a 20/21 surprised me because they run much cooler than a TiVo (SD), as I recall.
> 
> ...


Suppose the troublesome boxes experienced an assembly glitch such as a cold solder joint? Wouldn't/couldn't heat cause it to open? I imagine the boxes and/or components are made by the lowest bidder somewhere and I doubt each box is subjected to stringent quality control. To say heat is a non-issue doesn't make sense to me. I thought heat was always an issue in electronics. In fact, I thought heat was an issue for just about everything on this planet.

There has to be some reason to explain the random failures of these boxes. If they were bullet-proof, why does D* so willingly replace them.

My OP states I have a solid HR20-100 that I keep cooled to the 90's. My problems began with the introduction of a Cavalry 1TB eSATA. Since removing it from its case and just running the bare drive, I again have a solid HR20-100. My best GUESS, and that is all it is, is that my Cavalry boards were bad. I PRESUME this because I have never had a bad Western Digital drive. For others, there is nothing wrong-headed about thinking heat is/could be causing their issues. Just because one member's setup is egg fry'n hot but still performs doesn't mean another's won't faint at a warm breeze.

If one is having problems, why not give add-on cooling a try before going through the pain of getting and setting up a new box.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

schneid said:


> If one is having problems, why not give add-on cooling a try before going through the pain of getting and setting up a new box.


Add on cooling will not hurt, but I thinkt he problem is really software related. If the box locks up hard every day and totally dies, sure, that sounds like hardware, but I have a hard time imagining that the instant keep/delete and the blank recordings could be due to a cold solder joint.

I just had the I K/D issue last night. Every show we tried to watch did it. My wife had even deleted one thinking it was a standard glitch before noticing that several did it and I came into the room. We rebooted from the menu and it was fine after that. Even the show she deleted was still there. How can that be a broken connection in the hardware.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I just think any electronic device will remain reliable longer if it does not run hot. I was disappointed that the HR20 was very warm to the touch. I am using a Targus to cool it, but it should have been designed a little more thoughtfully.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> Suppose the troublesome boxes experienced an assembly glitch such as a cold solder joint? Wouldn't/couldn't heat cause it to open?


If it opened you'd have a problem with the DVR's function or functions, wouldn't you think?



> I imagine the boxes and/or components are made by the lowest bidder somewhere and I doubt each box is subjected to stringent quality control.


QC is obviously a great problem. Look at how many people have perfectly functioning units. All we see are the people on this forum who have problems. I don't pretend to know the answer, but I suspect that when you have a DVR that is functioning properly and a new NR causes problems with some DVRs, but not all, the 20/21s with the problems must have a hardware/software conflict. And that is probably traceable to QC problems in the manufacturing process.

I had 771 problems with my one 21 the two preceding NRs that 230 has straightened out. Four NRs ago, the 21 was working properly just as it is right now. Gotta be a software/hardware conflict, don't you think?



> To say heat is a non-issue doesn't make sense to me. I thought heat was always an issue in electronics. In fact, I thought heat was an issue for just about everything on this planet.


I guess I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to play down the importance of heat in electrical or electronic devices. What I meant is that on a properly functioning 20/21 the temperature will be a function of the ambient temperature where it is placed. If you have one in a cold room that reads 77 and one in a cabinet that reads 123, that is a 46 degree difference and yet I have that exact situation and I'm not concerned.



> There has to be some reason to explain the random failures of these boxes.


I'm not sure there are that many "random" failures or issues. They seem to be pretty consistent from NR to NR. Even tho we call the "random reboots" the 20s running 22d are experiencing now "random", they are rebooting consistently.



> If they were bullet-proof, why does D* so willingly replace them.


Couple reasons: The most obvious reason is that the CSR is baffled and appeases the sub by sending out a replacement. And they willingly admit that they have problems that they are trying to resolve with both the HW and the SW.

Another reason: If you belong to the Protection Plan, they will try to troubleshoot the problem over the phone. That does work occasionally. And if they can't get the problem resolved, you get a replacement in a day or two. They just rewired my house and put up a new Slimline dish and checked and approved of my circuitry. All that work did zip for the 771 problem. They tried several times to replace my 21 and I refused. One of the CSRs said that she had never heard of anyone refusing a replacement set.

The Main Reason: Of course they know that the DVRS are not "bullet proof". Look what they did to us in 06. Put a device on the market that they knew was not ready for prime time. I gotta tell you, they've come a long way in the 20 months I've had them. When they start pushing back on the replacement policy, we'll know that they think they have a stable platform.



> My OP states I have a solid HR20-100 that I keep cooled to the 90's. My problems began with the introduction of a Cavalry 1TB eSATA. Since removing it from its case and just running the bare drive, I again have a solid HR20-100. My best GUESS, and that is all it is, is that my Cavalry boards were bad. I PRESUME this because I have never had a bad Western Digital drive.


When I found out that the eSATA function had been enabled and understood the basics of using one, I began buying Cavalry 750 eSATAs. Hooked them up to 20-700s. They all did provide the basic functions of record and playback without fail, but the noise from the hard drives and the tiny high velocity fan was so bad that you couldn't concentrate on TV. Some of them actually banged and clanged and you could see them moving. One worked correctly, little or no noise except for the fan. Kept it for six months, was afraid to go near it and didn't have any faith in it. Replaced it with a Seagate 750 FAP and I ended up with four FAPs on four 20-700s. Still working, no eSATA problems.

I get the 21 and the FAPs don't work with them. Only other thing I can think of is that maybe Cavalry has improved their eSATAs. And they HAD! I did call Cavalry and ask them which position they recommended and they told me that flat would be the best position. And the "Cavalry" logo should not be upside down. And yet when you look at most pictures of them on the Net, you see them upright in the holder.

I took a couple apart and the WD drives were definitely making the banging noise.
And the HDs seemed to be quite secure in the case. AND, they still recorded and played back!



> For others, there is nothing wrong-headed about thinking heat is/could be causing their issues. Just because one member's setup is egg fry'n hot but still performs doesn't mean another's won't faint at a warm breeze.


And that is the QC problem. They should all be the same. If you get one that runs at 180 degrees, you obviously have a problem



> If one is having problems, why not give add-on cooling a try before going through the pain of getting and setting up a new box.


How much cooler than 77 degrees can you get? Even the eSATA is not very warm.
And I've still had problems with both 21-700s in this room. And my hottest HR is a 20 in a cabinet with an FAP. 123 degrees. I never have trouble with that one. (Now it will blow up.)

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> I just think any electronic device will remain reliable longer if it does not run hot. I was disappointed that the HR20 was very warm to the touch. I am using a Targus to cool it, but it should have been designed a little more thoughtfully.


Ever put you hand on a TiVo or a cable box? HOT!

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> I just think any electronic device will remain reliable longer if it does not run hot. I was disappointed that the HR20 was very warm to the touch. I am using a Targus to cool it, but it should have been designed a little more thoughtfully.


Oh, I forgot. You're right about the cooling, but I don't think the 20/21s run too hot.
Certainly not hot enough to damage them physically. Can't hurt to cool them down tho.

Rich


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Ever put you hand on a TiVo or a cable box? HOT!
> 
> Rich


You ain't kidding about the cable box. Way back in the old days I remember keeping clear of the drapes in case it burst to flames.:lol:


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## cage22 (Jan 14, 2007)

*AM21 + Heat*
Replies greatfully appreciated.

I got an AM21 on 06/06/08. At first the signal strenght was great, for a few days. It's barely working now. I've had it on top of the HR21 and also tried below. The combo gets very hot to the touch.

Case management at D* is sending me another AM21. I don't want to kill another one if I shouldn't be putting it on top (or under) the HR21.
*Question 1.*
The HR21 seems to max out at around 120. Anyone know of any heat issues w/AM21 or have any suggestions?

*Question 2.*
When checking the AM21 antenna OTA signal strength, I get nearly equal strengths for Off-air tuner 1 and Off-air tuner 2. Should there be an Off-air tuner 2 on the AM21?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

armophob said:


> You ain't kidding about the cable box. Way back in the old days I remember keeping clear of the drapes in case it burst to flames.:lol:


I was so sure that my cable box was running too hot. So I whip out my trusty ammeter, check the wattage on the nameplate of the box, and do the math. Right on the button. To this day, I still can't believe it, but I cannot deny what I saw on my ammeter. They made those things to run hot and they did not have hard drives.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Sirshagg said:


> Gotta watch out for those infernal drives. Perhaps that's what's causing all the problems? :lol:


Shaggy, I think if the infernal drives were shut down automatically when an eSATA was plugged in, the heat would go down quite a bit.

Rich


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## Aggie86 (Aug 13, 2007)

Quick Summary of my recent experience.

HR20-700 with a Cavalry 1TB ESATA on an open shelf above TV.

About 2 months ago started having problems with Freezes, audio/video drop outs, missed recordings, remote failure and full lock ups. Even had the dreaded "Winter Update" message after a reboot and ALL my recordings were gone.

Tried just about everything I could find...RBR, unplug and restart, Keyword DELETEARCHIVE....no luck. Finally called Cust Service and walked through many other tests/resets, swapped cables, etc... Nothing worked for more than a couple hours.

Finally checked heat...HR20 was pretty warm (127), but the Cavalry was damned hot to the touch. Put a 7$ Walmart personal fan between the HR20 and the ESATA drive.(Not real quiet, but effective) HR20 now 120, Cavalry coool to the touch: 

NOT ONE LOCK UP in the past 10 days. Guess I found MY problem.

- John


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

Miy HR20 always runs between 89 and 93. Why so much lower than everyone else?


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## cage22 (Jan 14, 2007)

SPACEMAKER said:


> Miy HR20 always runs between 89 and 93. Why so much lower than everyone else?


I have no idea how that's happening. My HR21, which runs cooler typically than the HR20 (I used to have) runs at 118 - 120. I'm wondering if the thermal sensor on yours is not working correct. Does it feel warmer than ~90 degrees? My HR20 definitely felt HOT.

Do you keep yours in a very cold house on a pedestal (i.e. a stand with no top or sides)?

_Maybe your just somehow blessed?_


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

SPACEMAKER said:


> Miy HR20 always runs between 89 and 93. Why so much lower than everyone else?


WOW! I don't think any of mine would be that cool even if I put them in my server room at work. Even the ones that are completely in the open run above 110.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Aggie86 said:


> Quick Summary of my recent experience.
> 
> HR20-700 with a Cavalry 1TB ESATA on an open shelf above TV.
> 
> ...


I had a lot of troubles with the Cavalrys and the HR20s. No problem at all with the 21 and the 750 Cav. The Seagate FAP 750 works flawlessly (I have four) with the 20s. The model of my Cav is: CAXM37750 and when I called Cavalry they suggested it be laid flat, not in the holder standing up. Mine is warm, but not too warm. Comfy. Works great. I have three more in still in the boxes in case I have to replace one or more 20s. The FAPs do not work with the 21s.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

SPACEMAKER said:


> Miy HR20 always runs between 89 and 93. Why so much lower than everyone else?


I have one 21 that runs at a steady 77. How cool is the room where you have it?

Rich


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## SubSlr08 (Dec 4, 2007)

armophob said:


> I just think any electronic device will remain reliable longer if it does not run hot. I was disappointed that the HR20 was very warm to the touch. I am using a Targus to cool it, but it should have been designed a little more thoughtfully.


More damaging than high temperatures is thermal cycling, i.e. hot then cold, over and over. That senario can really wreak havoc with printed circuit boards and other components. As long as the temperature is NOT overly excessive, it's probably better staying within that range rather then cycling up and down.

My HR21-100 pretty much stays at 113 degrees anytime it's checked. Of course, it's in an air-conditioned room kept at 76.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

SubSlr08 said:


> More damaging than high temperatures is thermal cycling, i.e. hot then cold, over and over. That senario can really wreak havoc with printed circuit boards and other components. As long as the temperature is NOT overly excessive, it's probably better staying within that range rather then cycling up and down.


That's a valid point. But, the 20/21s stay about the same temp as long as the ambient temp remains the same. The debate here is more focused on whether heat plays a role in the problems, pixillation, audio drop outs, 771s, etc. And the 20/21s are always in some degree of "on". And I think those cooling pads must have a thermostat to control the amount of cooling. But in order to be effective, they, too, must always be on, no? If he shut down his cooling unit at night, he would be dropping into your scenario.



> My HR21-100 pretty much stays at 113 degrees anytime it's checked. Of course, it's in an air-conditioned room kept at 76.


I bet there's a formula here for determining the inner temp based on the ambient temp in the room or enclosure of the 20/21. My 21-700 is in a room that is usually 60-62 degrees and stays really constant at 77 degrees. That's using an eSATA.

So, we know these things operate from a low of 77 (I haven't seen a post of any lower than my 21-700) and a high of 137. What is the optimum range? Or optimum mean temp? What temp does the thermal cutoff shut the unit down?

All those questions are interesting, but I still think heat isn't really a factor in the ongoing problems we've been experiencing. It is an interesting subject tho. I wonder how many people check their infernal temp or even know how.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

77 degree reading is a failure mode... when it can't get the temp from the interna; drive it displays 77 degrees..


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## kirkus (Mar 21, 2006)

Aggie86 said:


> Quick Summary of my recent experience.
> 
> HR20-700 with a Cavalry 1TB ESATA on an open shelf above TV.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I noticed my freeze-ups/reboots seemed to occur more often on the weekend - and it occurred to me that I had been playing music outside most of the weekend, which required a second receiver to be on creating additional heat in my cabinet. The reboots always resulted in a reboot to the internal drive (old recordings, "update software", etc, as if the external drive was not hooked up.) The DVR did not seem to be hot, but like John, the Seagate was DAMN hot.

Moved it to a higher shelf where it is isolated, and have only had one lock-up in three weeks (versus about three per week). If I have another lockup, I'll add a fan to the cabinet. I'm starting to suspect that my lock-ups are related to a heat issue of the esata rather than the DVR.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

As the OP, I am still problem free after trashing the Cavalry board and case and hooking the drive via eSATA to SATA cable and powering via an old PC power supply. I have never had problems with my HR20-100 running on the internal drive but I added auxiliary cooling from the get-go. Only when I added the Cavalry, that ran noticeably hot, did I have problems.

For me, Cavalry's are junk. I think the quality control is poor and their service after the sale is worse. I would have thought after two bad drives they would have guaranteed the third one was solid. Instead I got a box of junk. The drive itself seems okay so I only wasted about $70 buying a Cavalry so far. It will now cost $50 or so to get it into an Antec MX-1 case that seems to be best solution here. Prices for them have gone way up.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> 77 degree reading is a failure mode... when it can't get the temp from the interna; drive it displays 77 degrees..


Both 21-700s I have had in this very cool room have read the same infernal temp. How could two consecutive units have the same problem? Not doubting your info, just would like more info.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> As the OP, I am still problem free after trashing the Cavalry board and case and hooking the drive via eSATA to SATA cable and powering via an old PC power supply. I have never had problems with my HR20-100 running on the internal drive but I added auxiliary cooling from the get-go. Only when I added the Cavalry, that ran noticeably hot, did I have problems.
> 
> For me, Cavalry's are junk. I think the quality control is poor and their service after the sale is worse. I would have thought after two bad drives they would have guaranteed the third one was solid. Instead I got a box of junk. The drive itself seems okay so I only wasted about $70 buying a Cavalry so far. It will now cost $50 or so to get it into an Antec MX-1 case that seems to be best solution here. Prices for them have gone way up.


What model was the bad Cavalry?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> 77 degree reading is a failure mode... when it can't get the temp from the interna; drive it displays 77 degrees..


Something else happens in this cool room. My Panny plasma will not respond to my 21's mote or it's own mote when I try to turn the set on. Once on, all the functions work on both motes. And after it's been on a little while, both motes will turn it on and off.

Been meaning to call Panasonic to see if this is normal in very cool room (usually around 58-62 degrees. Right now it is 61 degrees in here and I am getting ready to turn a heater on.

All my experience with computer rooms tells me that cooler is better, but between the 21 and the Panny I have begun to wonder.

Rich


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

You might also consider that the extra drain that some of these USB fans put on the HR2x power supplies may cause more harm than the extra cooling provides.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

kirkus said:


> This is interesting. I noticed my freeze-ups/reboots seemed to occur more often on the weekend - and it occurred to me that I had been playing music outside most of the weekend, which required a second receiver to be on creating additional heat in my cabinet. The reboots always resulted in a reboot to the internal drive (old recordings, "update software", etc, as if the external drive was not hooked up.) The DVR did not seem to be hot, but like John, the Seagate was DAMN hot.
> 
> Moved it to a higher shelf where it is isolated, and have only had one lock-up in three weeks (versus about three per week). If I have another lockup, I'll add a fan to the cabinet. I'm starting to suspect that my lock-ups are related to a heat issue of the esata rather than the DVR.


Are you using mediashare to play the music? That's as likely a cause of the lockups as heat.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> What model was the bad Cavalry?
> 
> Rich


CAXM3701T0


----------



## MikeekiM (Oct 1, 2006)

schneid said:


> As the OP, I am still problem free after trashing the Cavalry board and case and hooking the drive via eSATA to SATA cable and powering via an old PC power supply. I have never had problems with my HR20-100 running on the internal drive but I added auxiliary cooling from the get-go. Only when I added the Cavalry, that ran noticeably hot, did I have problems.
> 
> For me, Cavalry's are junk. I think the quality control is poor and their service after the sale is worse. I would have thought after two bad drives they would have guaranteed the third one was solid. Instead I got a box of junk. The drive itself seems okay so I only wasted about $70 buying a Cavalry so far. It will now cost $50 or so to get it into an Antec MX-1 case that seems to be best solution here. Prices for them have gone way up.


So your opinion is that the Cavalry internal bare drive is fine, but the external case is junk?


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

MikeekiM said:


> So your opinion is that the Cavalry internal bare drive is fine, but the external case is junk?


Yep, I think that sums it up. For grins I just pealed off the new serial number sticker sloppily pasted over the original one. It states, "CAXM37750, 750GB USB 2.0/SATA", so I think it is pretty clear they sent me an old case they had laying around.

Now I have to go make sure I really have a 1TB drive.

Update: The drive is a 1TB WD Green 10EACS. From what I have read these are good drives.


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## kirkus (Mar 21, 2006)

Ken S said:


> Are you using mediashare to play the music? That's as likely a cause of the lockups as heat.


Nope. Music unrelated to HR20 operation. Only connection is common cabinet (and heat buildup).


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> CAXM3701T0


Mine is a CAXM37750. Works perfectly. Runs without much heat.

Rich


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## EricRobins (Feb 9, 2005)

I've got 2 HR20-100's stacked one on the other, with a DVD/VCR combo unit on top of the second HR20.

Also in the same enclosed cabinet I have a Marantz AV rcvr.

When all this was first put in, I had two fans pulling the air out of the cabinet into the wall space.

On Sat morning, I was screwing around w/ a new HDMI cable (long, OT story), and in the afternoon the lower HR20 started locking up (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=130968). I had inadvertently unplugged the two cooling fans.

When I finally got the HR20 running again, the temp read 124. Now everything is fine. You would have a very hard time convincing me that these errors were not the result of high temperatures.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricRobins said:


> I've got 2 HR20-100's stacked one on the other, with a DVD/VCR combo unit on top of the second HR20.
> 
> Also in the same enclosed cabinet I have a Marantz AV rcvr.
> 
> ...


What was the internal (infernal) temp when the 20 locked up? Did you get a chance to check it?

Rich


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

EricRobins said:


> .
> 
> When I finally got the HR20 running again, the temp read 124. Now everything is fine. You would have a very hard time convincing me that these errors were not the result of high temperatures.


It sure seems likely that YOUR issues were caused by the high temps. However, that certainly does not mean that all HR2x errors are caused by high temps or that as the original poster stated the first line of of his post that


> I am hypothesizing that there may be a relationship between blank, gray, and IKD recordings and internal box temps


When your boxes had high temps, did you get lots of grey or black recordings?


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Mine is a CAXM37750. Works perfectly. Runs without much heat.
> 
> Rich


My third replacement 1TB came in a CAXM37750 (750GB) labeled case. Maybe this case can't handle the 1TB drives. I am still trouble free after ditching the Cavalry case ten days ago. I haven't missed/lost a single recording, can record two at once, and download DOD while recording off the sat.

I have ordered an Antec MX-1 case as my bare drive setup is ugly and vulnerable. That will put me over $300 for my Cavalry debacle.

Other than being ripped off by Cavalry, I am a happy D* subscriber.


----------



## MikeekiM (Oct 1, 2006)

schneid said:


> My third replacement 1TB came in a CAXM37750 (750GB) labeled case. Maybe this case can't handle the 1TB drives. I am still trouble free after ditching the Cavalry case ten days ago. I haven't missed/lost a single recording, can record two at once, and download DOD while recording off the sat.
> 
> I have ordered an Antec MX-1 case as my bare drive setup is ugly and vulnerable. That will put me over $300 for my Cavalry debacle.
> 
> Other than being ripped off by Cavalry, I am a happy D* subscriber.


$300, huh? Wow... How does that cost break-down?


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> It sure seems likely that YOUR issues were caused by the high temps. However, that certainly does not mean that all HR2x errors are caused by high temps


Good point. Let's not use this situation (which was caused by "driver error") to conclude that all issues are caused by "high" temps when we don't even know what a "high" temp is.

I'd really like to know what temps he was getting without the fan/s.

And I wish the Puddy Tat would reply to my questions about the 77 degree temps I'm getting on the 21s.

Rich


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

MikeekiM said:


> $300, huh? Wow... How does that cost break-down?


Something like $230 for the original 1TB drive, $25 for a SIIG eSATA cable thinking that might be the problem, $16 to ship the first drive to Cavalry for repair (not counting the trips to the UPS Store to return drives one and two), and now $45 for an Antec MX-1 case. So it's at least $316 plus grief for my Cavalry experience.


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Good point. Let's not use this situation (which was caused by "driver error") to conclude that all issues are caused by "high" temps when we don't even know what a "high" temp is.
> 
> I'd really like to know what temps he was getting without the fan/s.
> 
> ...


I found interesting that someone stated the HRX temps are taken from the HD drive and that 77 means no temp is being read. I looked at my PC and the system monitor does not read HD temps. I researched the subject and learned it is a function of the drives S.M.A.R.T. technology. I DL'd a utility to read that and my PC drive 0 is at 88 which seems low but my PC has four fans.

My HR20-100 seems to be low 90's on the external drive and high 90's on the internal drive but it has one add on fan. I'll shut it down when I get a chance to check the difference.

I do know that Dish told me that 127 and above was a problem for the 622HZ box. It would be nice to see a definitive answer on where the boxes are reading their temps and if 77 indicates a sensor failure.


----------



## EricRobins (Feb 9, 2005)

Lee L said:


> When your boxes had high temps, did you get lots of grey or black recordings?


No, but the fans were unplugged for only a short time before the box failed. I do not believe any recordings were scheduled.



rich584 said:


> I'd really like to know what temps he was getting without the fan/s.


Because the lower box failed, I could not get a reading, but just after I plugged the fans in, and had the cabinet door open, the upper box showed a reading in the lower 120's.


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

schneid said:


> I found interesting that someone stated the HRX temps are taken from the HD drive and that 77 means no temp is being read. I looked at my PC and the system monitor does not read HD temps. I researched the subject and learned it is a function of the drives S.M.A.R.T. technology. I DL'd a utility to read that and my PC drive 0 is at 88 which seems low but my PC has four fans.
> 
> My HR20-100 seems to be low 90's on the external drive and high 90's on the internal drive but it has one add on fan. I'll shut it down when I get a chance to check the difference.
> 
> I do know that Dish told me that 127 and above was a problem for the 622HZ box. It would be nice to see a definitive answer on where the boxes are reading their temps and if 77 indicates a sensor failure.


My quick check using the external drive showed 95 with add on fan and 100 with it off.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

EricRobins said:


> No, but the fans were unplugged for only a short time before the box failed. I do not believe any recordings were scheduled.
> 
> Because the lower box failed, I could not get a reading, but just after I plugged the fans in, and had the cabinet door open, the upper box showed a reading in the lower 120's.


The one 20 I have in a cabinet is side by side with an FAP and reads a constant 123 and I never have problems with that unit. Apparently a 20/21 in a cabinet will register around 120-130 degrees and that is probably normal and not harmful.

Rich


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

cage22 said:


> I have no idea how that's happening. My HR21, which runs cooler typically than the HR20 (I used to have) runs at 118 - 120. I'm wondering if the thermal sensor on yours is not working correct. Does it feel warmer than ~90 degrees? My HR20 definitely felt HOT.
> 
> Do you keep yours in a very cold house on a pedestal (i.e. a stand with no top or sides)?
> 
> _Maybe your just somehow blessed?_


It feels slightly warm but not at all hot.

My set up provides lots of air.









(HR20-100s is where the Comcast DVR used to be)



rich584 said:


> I have one 21 that runs at a steady 77. How cool is the room where you have it?
> 
> Rich


The room is always 72 degrees.

Maybe it's the glass shelf that helps to dissipate the heat.


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Here:

http://www.buyextras.com/cacoso.html

Fan, speed control, and AC supply under $20. Just double-sided tape them over a vent.


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Thermo-controlled outlet. Turns on at 78 degrees. Lots of possibilities in an equipment cabinet.

http://www.buyextras.com/thcoou.html


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> My third replacement 1TB came in a CAXM37750 (750GB) labeled case. Maybe this case can't handle the 1TB drives. I am still trouble free after ditching the Cavalry case ten days ago. I haven't missed/lost a single recording, can record two at once, and download DOD while recording off the sat.
> 
> I have ordered an Antec MX-1 case as my bare drive setup is ugly and vulnerable. That will put me over $300 for my Cavalry debacle.
> 
> Other than being ripped off by Cavalry, I am a happy D* subscriber.


That's the kind of thing the place you bought it from does. Might not have been Cavs fault. I ordered two speaker stands from them, got one and the box was ripped and all the parts were not there. Crutchfield was a couple bucks more, but at least I got two and all the parts were in the boxes.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

SPACEMAKER said:


> It feels slightly warm but not at all hot.
> 
> My set up provides lots of air.
> 
> ...


And the stand doesn't have doors on it, and I trust there are holes in the back. My 20s are on glass and wide open on all sides. And the stand has an A/C outlet blowing on it.

Rich


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

rich584 said:


> And the stand doesn't have doors on it, and I trust there are holes in the back. My 20s are on glass and wide open on all sides. And the stand has an A/C outlet blowing on it.
> 
> Rich


No doors and the back is pretty much open. I do have a Sony shelf system on the floor behind the stand that provides good bass and a rich sound but it doesn't add any heat.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

SPACEMAKER said:


> No doors and the back is pretty much open. I do have a Sony shelf system on the floor behind the stand that provides good bass and a rich sound but it doesn't add any heat.


I checked my three 20s that are on glass shelves and open on all sides. And in front of an A/C duct. One was at 118 degrees and the other two were at 120. Room temp was about 72. I could swear that I was getting around 115 degrees on those, but...

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Good point. Let's not use this situation (which was caused by "driver error") to conclude that all issues are caused by "high" temps when we don't even know what a "high" temp is.
> 
> I'd really like to know what temps he was getting without the fan/s.
> 
> ...


Sorry.. I do have a job :grin: 
During some early testing runs I had one that would lock up.. I traced it to the temp not reading and it over heating due to fan not comming on.. then traced temp reading to the drive temp sensor.. replaced the drive and all was well after..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Sorry.. I do have a job :grin:


I was beginning to wonder if you just "hit and ran" with that post. Thanx for getting back and you have my condolences about having to work (truth, not sarcasm).



> During some early testing runs I had one that would lock up.. I traced it to the temp not reading and it over heating due to fan not comming on.. then traced temp reading to the drive temp sensor.. replaced the drive and all was well after..


So how could I get two in a row that read 77 degrees? Coincidence? The first 21 was brand new and the second a replacement. I have a digital thermometer and I just placed it on the warmest part I could find on the 21. I'll wait a couple of minutes and see what it reads. What if it reads around 77? I have it laying on top where I think the HD is. That would seem to be the warmest part, no?

OK, and the reading on the temp meter is...on top 89 degrees. On the right side where the vents are, it is reading 80 degrees. I do have a metal temp probe on the meter, but am not going to attempt to stick it inside. We'll have to go with outside temps. Which would seem to support the 77 degree reading on the DVR. But that reading NEVER changes. Nor does the reading on the HR20 that I have in a cabinet. Constant 123 degrees.

The ambient temp in the room is high today because the A/C unit is not on and I'm doing laundry (not that there's anything wrong with a man doing the laundry) so the room is warmer than the usual 60-62 degrees.

Just put the meter on the Cavalry eSATA and the reading is coming...96 degrees. Less than I expected.

All right, there's empirical data, I observed, took meter readings and reported those readings. I would agree with you wholeheartedly about the 77 reading being an error message, but why doesn't it identify itself as an error? A TiVo would. Yours was obviously running hot because of the fan, or the lack thereof. Mine is not running hot to the touch and is functioning perfectly, so...

So what do you think? Bad heat sensors on both of the 21s? I am not a big fan of coincidences. Neither of the 21s I have had in this room ever felt "hot" to the touch.

Rich


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Stuart Sweet said:


> There's no firm evidence that high temps cause problems in the HR series. I know the exhaustive testing that goes on with the models, and there's no reason to think a properly operating HR2x without some sort of existing hardware problem would be affected by high temps.


There's also no reason to think that someone might install a device is a cabinet that runs at nnn degrees ambient in a unflinching attempt at doing the opposite of the receiver placement instructions.

Here's a clip from the HR21 instruction manual:


HR21 Web Manual said:


> Important Safety Instructions
> 1) Read these instructions.
> 2) Keep these instructions.
> 3) Heed all warnings.
> ...


In another warning window on the same page:


HR21 Web manual said:


> IMPORTANT: Be sure not to place your DIRECTV Receiver near anything WET or HOT!


On the next page of the manual, you'll find this clip:


HR21 Web Manual said:


> • Ensure proper ventilation - the vent slots on the DIRECTV Receiver must be left uncovered to allow proper airflow to the unit. Blocking the airflow to the unit could impair performance or damage your receiver and other components.
> • Do not stack electronic components or other objects on top of the DIRECTV Receiver. Also, do not stack the receiver on top of a "hot component" such as an audio power amplifier.


DIRECTV is obviously very concerned that the end user not bake their equipment.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Like I said it's the internal temp sensor in the drive that it is reading.. could be a software error too thats not showing it correctly.. as long as they stay cool and run fine I wouldn't be too worried about it..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Like I said it's the internal temp sensor in the drive that it is reading.. could be a software error too thats not showing it correctly.. as long as they stay cool and run fine I wouldn't be too worried about it..


OK, I will touch it every day and make sure it is not hot. I wonder if any others with 21-700s have the 77 degree reading.

By the way, I never considered that a properly functioning 20/21 would be affected by high temps. I just joined the thread because I thought it was interesting and the OP did make logical, well thought out and well written arguments. I didn't agree with him at all and still have never seen a DVR overheat except for the TiVo that I deliberately disconnected the fan from. Any DVR.

But, the TiVo did have the decency to put up a blue page that told me that the internal temp was exceeding operating limits. As soon as I plugged the fan back in the unit worked properly again. Hopefully D* incorporates something like that page, I'm quite sure there is a thermal overload device in each 20/21.

Rich


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## jwhitaker65 (Sep 20, 2007)

rich584 said:


> OK, I will touch it every day and make sure it is not hot. I wonder if any others with 21-700s have the 77 degree reading.
> 
> By the way, I never considered that a properly functioning 20/21 would be affected by high temps. I just joined the thread because I thought it was interesting and the OP did make logical, well thought out and well written arguments. I didn't agree with him at all and still have never seen a DVR overheat except for the TiVo that I deliberately disconnected the fan from. Any DVR.
> 
> ...


I'd love to have a 77 degree reading. I've only had my 21-700 for 6 days and the readings are 108-109.


----------



## rubble3 (Sep 21, 2007)

I had LOTS of problems in the beginning with my HR20-100 with high temps causing lockups and missed recordings. My box would lock up everyday. My temps were in the 120's. Since adding some USB fans in my cabinet, I've lowered the temp to 102 and haven't had a lockup since. I'm confident that heat was the issue with my box. I didn't get new software between when I had the lockup and added the fans. I also took away the fans and began having issues again further confirming my suspicions.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jwhitaker65 said:


> I'd love to have a 77 degree reading. I've only had my 21-700 for 6 days and the readings are 108-109.


Be careful what you wish for. Your readings are "normal to low". If the Puddy Tat is correct, and I have no doubt about that, the 77 is an "error" message.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rubble3 said:


> I had LOTS of problems in the beginning with my HR20-100 with high temps causing lockups and missed recordings. My box would lock up everyday. My temps were in the 120's. Since adding some USB fans in my cabinet, I've lowered the temp to 102 and haven't had a lockup since. I'm confident that heat was the issue with my box. I didn't get new software between when I had the lockup and added the fans. I also took away the fans and began having issues again further confirming my suspicions.


And yet my 20-700 in a cabinet without fans runs at a steady 123 degrees and never has problems important enough to worry about. Matter of fact it, rarely if ever, has problems of any sort.

I've had more than a few 100s and I think they are the poorest 20s. I'm pretty sure if you put a 700 in that same cabinet, you could get rid of the fans. I do admit to a negative bias against the 100s based on my experiences. I wouldn't have one in my home.

That said, that was a nice job of troubleshooting. Glad to see you had the good sense to replicate the original conditions. You proved your point quite well. Be nice if everyone posted their troubleshooting steps whether they are successful or not.

Makes me wonder if the problems I had on some of the 100s were due to running too hot. But you really shouldn't have to go to all that trouble to get a DVR to function correctly. The 100s should be able to cope with the same temps as the 700s, don't you think? How different could the specs be?

Even three of my 20-700s read 115-118 and are in front of an A/C outlet and on glass shelves.

We shouldn't be expected to add cooling fans or other cooling devices. And we shouldn't put any DVR in an unventilated cabinet. I drilled five 2 inch holes with a holesaw in the back of the cabinet my 20-700 is in and since I have no problems with the unit, I think that sort of "passive" ventilation is sufficient. Without those five holes and the original larger hole for wires, that 700 would overheat.

But at what temperature would it fail? Why can't one of the D* people who monitor this forum just answer this simple question?

I can tell you that I played with a Series 2 Phillips 7000 (does that sound right?) TiVo, that I never had a problem with. I pulled the fan plug and after about a week or two of operating faultlessly, the unit put up a blue message screen stating that the maximum temp had been exceeded and that all future attempts at using the DVR would be fruitless until the temp came down. Plugged the fan in and after a while the TiVo began functioning again. I hope D* has built something into the 20/21s that works in a similar manner.

And if the 77 degree reading is an "error" sign, shouldn't that be noted near the reading?

Rich


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## dduitsman (Dec 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I can tell you that I played with a Series 2 Phillips 7000 (does that sound right?) TiVo, that I never had a problem with. I pulled the fan plug and after about a week or two of operating faultlessly, the unit put up a blue message screen stating that the maximum temp had been exceeded and that all future attempts at using the DVR would be fruitless until the temp came down. Plugged the fan in and after a while the TiVo began functioning again. I hope D* has built something into the 20/21s that works in a similar manner.


According to Earl Bonovich in this thread D* has included overtemp protections.

dd


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## BLWedge09 (Jan 6, 2007)

rich584 said:


> And yet my 20-700 in a cabinet without fans runs at a steady 123 degrees and never has problems important enough to worry about. Matter of fact it, rarely if ever, has problems of any sort.
> 
> I've had more than a few 100s and I think they are the poorest 20s. I'm pretty sure if you put a 700 in that same cabinet, you could get rid of the fans. I do admit to a negative bias against the 100s based on my experiences. I wouldn't have one in my home.


It must just depend on the box then. My HR20-100 is going on 2 years old and spent a good 7-8 months during the summer sitting in my attic with a cable running down through the wall to my tv and never had the slightest problem. Temps were usually up close to the 130 mark. That was a year or so ago when I lived in Baton Rouge.

I loved that setup...not a wire to be seen anywhere...


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Nice to see someone thinking I might have a point. What I know as fact is:

1. The software is the same.

2. I have an add-on fan and my temp is kept in the 90's.

3. I have never had problems with my box until I introduce a Cavalry HD that was hot to the touch. That variable is no longer in the equation and I am running trouble free again.

4. All boxes are not the same. They are built on different days, by different people, using different batches of components. Additionally, the environments end-user put them in are all different.

5. Heat does affect electronics and that is why chips that go into the Space Shuttle are built/tested to higher standards then those going into consumer electronics. Metal expands when hot and can cause circuits to open, close, or short.

So, I still think heat could be an issue for some, but not all, boxes. As it is a cheap fix to cool things down, if I were have problems, I'd give it a try. It's a lot easier than setting up a replacement box.

For sure it ain't the software. If it were, every box would be having problems.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dduitsman said:


> According to Earl Bonovich in this thread D* has included overtemp protections.
> 
> dd


Thanx for the link. That sort of answers my question. I knew that thermal protection was built into the 20/21s. Most electrical devices now have thermal protection and will be shut down if a certain temperature is reached. What I was looking for was an answer to the question: What happens if a 20/21 overheats? Does it just shut down or does the DVR tell you what is going on as the TiVos do?

Before anyone comments: A DVR is an electrical device first and an electronic device second.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

BLWedge09 said:


> It must just depend on the box then. My HR20-100 is going on 2 years old and spent a good 7-8 months during the summer sitting in my attic with a cable running down through the wall to my tv and never had the slightest problem. Temps were usually up close to the 130 mark. That was a year or so ago when I lived in Baton Rouge.
> 
> I loved that setup...not a wire to be seen anywhere...


I never got a 100 to work properly. I never had a "new" 100, they were all replacements. I never got one to work with an eSATA and I did try different brands of eSATAs.

So, you've proved that the high temps don't really matter to a 100. More confusion. Addressing your comment: "It must depend on the box then". That is one of the main problems that I think we have to deal with when trying to figure out what is going on with the 20/21s. Poor quality control. Ideally, they should be all built to the same specs and perform the same. Obviously, they do not.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> Nice to see someone thinking I might have a point. What I know as fact is:


I don't think you have a fact, you have an hypothesis. Prove that hypothesis and you have a theory, prove that theory and then you have a fact. In all the years we have been using electricity, all we have to rely on is the "Theory of Electricity". There is no such thing as the "Science of Electricity" and therefore facts are few, if there are any.



> I have an add-on fan and my temp is kept in the 90's.


You shouldn't have to do that. Leads back to poor QC once again.



> I have never had problems with my box until I introduce a Cavalry HD that was hot to the touch. That variable is no longer in the equation and I am running trouble free again.


Again, the Cavalrys are not the best eSATAs out there and are a poor example.



> All boxes are not the same. They are built on different days, by different people, using different batches of components.


But, they are all built to the same specifications. The break down in the manufacturing chain must be due to poor QC.



> Heat does affect electronics and that is why chips that go into the Space Shuttle are built/tested to higher standards then those going into consumer electronics. Metal expands when hot and can cause circuits to open, close, or short.


Thermal devices are equatable to the amperage pull of the units. That's how a circuit breaker works. The amperage goes up and the temperature goes up equally and the solder on the little ratchet wheel melts and the wheel spins and trips the shut off mechanism of the breaker. Nobody who understands electricity is going to argue your point. But to blame all the problems on the temp of the units is wrong. If the temp were too high, the unit would shut down.



> So, I still think heat could be an issue for some, but not all, boxes. As it is a cheap fix to cool things down, if I were have problems, I'd give it a try. It's a lot easier than setting up a replacement box.


Can't hurt and if it solves the problem...



> For sure it ain't the software. If it were, every box would be having problems.


It is the software and the way the hardware in some boxes reacts to the software introduced by some NRs. Again, this is a QC issue and not a heat issue. If all the boxes were within specs, the NRs would have little or no adverse effect on the 20/21s. And I believe that IS a FACT.

I think your logic and reasoning are good and well stated, but I have never had a heat issue with any DVR I have had that I didn't deliberately cause. And I have had many, many DVRs.

Rich


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Did you read post #83? That post contradicts your hypothesis.

Rich



schneid said:


> Nice to see someone thinking I might have a point. What I know as fact is:
> 
> 1. The software is the same.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

schneid said:


> Nice to see someone thinking I might have a point. What I know as fact is:
> 
> 1. The software is the same.
> 
> ...


Allright, rethinking this. I have a Cavalry 750 gig drive also. The enclosure does run pretty darn hot to the touch. I am going to buy a replacement enclosure for it today (hopefully, I can swap the drive right over with no issues) and see if it helps. I just wish there weas some way to monitor the temp of the drive. Once you go external you lose the ability to see how hot the drive is via the HR2x.

I have also noticed that my 103c signal strengths seem a touch low and then there is the whole potential for the network connection causing lockups like I am seeing also. So, I am trying everything.


----------



## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

schneid said:


> I snapped off the metal part and double-sided taped it to the right rear side vent on the HR20-100. It pulls out and blows to the rear.
> 
> Here is a link to one here:
> 
> ...


Just curious, how are you powering this fan, what did you hook it up to?

I'm using a laptop cooling fan and am running about 110-113.

Thanks


----------



## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

theratpatrol said:


> Just curious, how are you powering this fan, what did you hook it up to?
> 
> I'm using a laptop cooling fan and am running about 110-113.
> 
> Thanks


I have an HR20-100 so my fix only applies to it. The HR20-100 has a fan underneath that pulls into the box. You can't use a laptop cooler as it opposes the internal fan. I therefore placed the fan over the right rear, as you look face on, vent pulling out. I used the slot fan as it directs the air away from the box. For power I bought a 12v adjustable Radio Shack wall brick. Setting it to 9v or below quiets things down.

I didn't know about this site when I did my setup but it has numerous out-of-the-box plug-and-play solutions.

http://www.buyextras.com/fans.html


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Allright, rethinking this. I have a Cavalry 750 gig drive also. The enclosure does run pretty darn hot to the touch. I am going to buy a replacement enclosure for it today (hopefully, I can swap the drive right over with no issues) and see if it helps. I just wish there weas some way to monitor the temp of the drive. Once you go external you lose the ability to see how hot the drive is via the HR2x.


My Cavalry 750 runs at about 96 degrees. Feels comfortably warm. I have had troubles with Cavalry eSATAs, but never could attribute those problems to heat.



> I have also noticed that my 103c signal strengths seem a touch low and then there is the whole potential for the network connection causing lockups like I am seeing also. So, I am trying everything.


You might want to have your dish aligned. What are your readings, roughly? My highest is 96 and ranges down to 84 on 103c and I just had the dish realigned about a month ago.

Rich


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Even more fuel to the fire. When I checked the thing last night, the Calvary drive was running at a toasty 125 F according to my IR thermometer. Still well withing the specs for any drive I am aware of, but the fan is a touch more noisy than I liked so I figured it would not hurt to get those temps down.

As far as SS, I will write all my values down tonight, but I have a few 103c transponders that are around 70 IIRC. Will DirecTV align me for free (the dish was installed last October as an upgrade) or should I just do it myself? I have done a few dual LNBf dishes before, but never one with this much extra stuff hanging off it.

It is certainly possible that there are a variety of things causing the issue. So again, I am trying everything I can to fix it, including taking the network cable off the thing for a while. Once I get the cooler drive in and it runs well for a few days I will put it back to see what happens.

I am still not convinced that heat alone does it, but I will leave myself open to be changed on that.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Just for info.. (don't try this on leased boxes) <official disclaimer 
I have 2 HR20-700s and a HR21-700 that I upgraded the fans in them (I have a bad enviorment for them, 100 degree ambients are common) they all run at about 106-109 and have been rock solid for the last year..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Even more fuel to the fire. When I checked the thing last night, the Calvary drive was running at a toasty 125 F according to my IR thermometer. Still well withing the specs for any drive I am aware of, but the fan is a touch more noisy than I liked so I figured it would not hurt to get those temps down.


What model is that Cavalry? Mine is silent. I don't trust them, but this one has been fine. MOD# CAXM37750 is mine. Have you got it standing upright in the holder or laying flat? Cavalry recommends laying them flat if possible.



> As far as SS, I will write all my values down tonight, but I have a few 103c transponders that are around 70 IIRC. Will DirecTV align me for free (the dish was installed last October as an upgrade) or should I just do it myself? I have done a few dual LNBf dishes before, but never one with this much extra stuff hanging off it.


That's probably an alignment problem and D* will do it for you if you complain enough or have the Protection Plan. Do you have multi-switches?



> It is certainly possible that there are a variety of things causing the issue. So again, I am trying everything I can to fix it, including taking the network cable off the thing for a while. Once I get the cooler drive in and it runs well for a few days I will put it back to see what happens.
> 
> I am still not convinced that heat alone does it, but I will leave myself open to be changed on that.


I really don't think it is the heat. Did you have the same problems before the latest NR? If everything was working correctly before the NR, you might have to wait for the next NR.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Just for info.. (don't try this on leased boxes) <official disclaimer
> I have 2 HR20-700s and a HR21-700 that I upgraded the fans in them (I have a bad enviorment for them, 100 degree ambients are common) they all run at about 106-109 and have been rock solid for the last year..


Where do you have the DVRs? That's pretty high ambient temp.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Where do you have the DVRs? That's pretty high ambient temp.
> 
> Rich


two are in cabnets last is in the bedroom (left closed up most of the time) and I rarely run the a/c..


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I have had various issues (blank recordings, missed recordings with "The Showing is Over" in history) going back a long ways. Pretty much the same that many others have had. However, a couple of days before the time of the last NR, 0x235, the power went out during a storm that outlasted the UPS (a storm with lots of wind so the dish could have moved also). Since then I have had 10 times the number of issues as before and I have had freezes lasting a minute or so and the mahcine would just spring back to life(mostly).

When I listend to the Calvary Drive, I could definitely hear the sound of bad fan bearings and it went completely silent when I switched the fan off. I do not know the model number right now, but it is the drive that was very popular here for a while. I do have it laying flat and installed plastic feet under it to get it off the shelf it is on. 

Last night, I had a rash of lockups and had to reboot 4 or 5 times, which is why I am trying the change in enclosures.

Still, as far as DVR issues go, I just can't see the blank recordings being caused by high temps. However, my recent lockups and freezes, maybe so. (even though others have reported similar issues apparently related to network.)


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I checked my SS this morning and all my 103(c) stuff is in the upper 80s to mid 90s so I should be good there. I did sqitch the drive form the Cavalry case to the Antec MX-1 and it fired right up. No issues last night or this morning, but I will keep monitoring it. The one thing that has me most worried is that I am seeing more and more reports from others in the 0x235 threads that have pretty much the exact same issues.

I did confirm that the fan was dead in the Cavlary drive so at the very least, changing to the Antec should be a good thing for the long term if nothing else.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

How much does external temperature matter? I have HD DVR in the garage it has air flow around, its not in a cabinet, but the air temperature must be at least 120, receiver get hot to the touch. I wonder if its a bad idea to keep it there.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ironwood said:


> How much does external temperature matter? I have HD DVR in the garage it has air flow around, its not in a cabinet, but the air temperature must be at least 120, receiver get hot to the touch. I wonder if its a bad idea to keep it there.


Like any electronic equipment, a cooler ambient temperature is desirable. I've got one in a cabinet with holes in the back wall and that ranges between 123-127 and works fine.

Most electrical motors have a rating on the nameplate that says something like: Temperature rise above ambient xxx degrees. I don't remember the exact wording, but what it means is that the motor will function at xxx degrees above the ambient temperature. Be nice if D* provided us with info like this on the nameplates.

Rich


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

another question for electronics professionals. Does it matter if this receiver is on its side or upside down? I know many people will put basic receivers on its side when they dont fit in a cabinet and they work fine. But its probably not desirable to DVRs and all advanced equipment.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Just checked internal temperature its 143! Time to relocate the box.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

rich584 said:


> Most electrical motors have a rating on the nameplate that says something like: Temperature rise above ambient xxx degrees. I don't remember the exact wording, but what it means is that the motor will function at xxx degrees above the ambient temperature. Be nice if D* provided us with info like this on the nameplates.


Electronics and motors have surprisingly little in common. Both can be destroyed by too much heat, but electronics are much more sensitive. Hard drives also have ratings which rarely exceed 140F (60C).

All devices that create heat will be warmer than ambient even if the fan is blowing gale force. Even the inefficiency in the fan motor creates heat.

Suffice it to say that if you can't handle the heat, neither can your receiver. Like you, the equipment will break down much more rapidly when pushed to its tolerance. The unfortunate part is that the equipment will never recover.


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## ironwood (Sep 20, 2007)

Update. Relocated receivers temp dropped to 115-120. Interesting though one box is HR21-100 it feels hot and temp at 120. Another box is HR21-200 cover feels absolutely cool and temp is 115. Receivers are in the same room.


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## gregjones (Sep 20, 2007)

Keep in mind that cabinets normally involve several separate issues. Heat is one. Many people putting equipment in a cabinet overload the power strip they stuck behind it.

Keep it cool (not in a cabinet with no ventilation and five components stacked on top of each other). Keep good power going to it (that means reading the box of the UPS since it has a hard drive).


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

harsh said:


> Electronics and motors have surprisingly little in common.


Quite right. The motors are inductive loads and the DVRs are resistive loads (for the most part, enough to be considered resistive). I wasn't trying to make a comparison of the two, what I was getting at was the idea of putting the temp rise on the name plate of the DVRs as most motors have.



> All devices that create heat will be warmer than ambient even if the fan is blowing gale force. Even the inefficiency in the fan motor creates heat.


I agree with this.



> Suffice it to say that if you can't handle the heat, neither can your receiver. Like you, the equipment will break down much more rapidly when pushed to its tolerance. The unfortunate part is that the equipment will never recover.


Agree again, but it would be nice to see the temp specs on each model of the 20/21s.

Or should I say "20/21ssssssssss". I don't think I'll ever forget your post on the ssssssssssibilance issssssue. "My precioussssssss" indeed. I'll never forget that post, I still laugh my assssssssssssss off every time I think of it.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Anyone with a temp reading on their receiver or DVR above 130 degrees should be looking to address their heat situation.

As many here have accurately pointed out...heat is not a friend of electronics.

Failure rates grow exponentially with every degree above 135 degrees on many electronic devices. Since a $19.99 laptop cooling fan has repeated been proven to drop temps 7-10 degrees ...it would appear a simple and easy way to resolve the problem.

My 3 HD DVRs are all below 120 degrees...one is at 106 on average.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

also I have found that raising a HR20 1/2" can make a world of difference in temp..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> also I have found that raising a HR20 1/2" can make a world of difference in temp..


I moved my 21-700 from my hidey hole where it was reading 77 degrees to one of my family rooms. It is still reading 77 degrees. You were right, Puddy Tat! And you were the only one who knew. Kudos.

Now I've got a 20-700 in my freezing cold hidey hole and it is reading 118 degrees, same as upstairs in a relatively warm room. Puzzled, I thought the ambient temp of the room the 20/21 was in would affect the infernal temps, but this kinda puts the lie to that. What do you think?

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I moved my 21-700 from my hidey hole where it was reading 77 degrees to one of my family rooms. It is still reading 77 degrees. You were right, Puddy Tat! And you were the only one who knew. Kudos.
> 
> Now I've got a 20-700 in my freezing cold hidey hole and it is reading 118 degrees, same as upstairs in a relatively warm room. Puzzled, I thought the ambient temp of the room the 20/21 was in would affect the infernal temps, but this kinda puts the lie to that. What do you think?
> 
> Rich


fan is thermostatic.. if you get them cold enough it won't even run..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Anyone with a temp reading on their receiver or DVR above 130 degrees should be looking to address their heat situation.
> 
> As many here have accurately pointed out...heat is not a friend of electronics.
> 
> ...


I seem to remember the TiVos running at about 150 degrees or more. Have no more and can't check, but it seems to me...

I have three 20/21s in one room that have different temps, all between 115 and 120. All on the same glass shelves and the lowest reading comes from one 20-700 that is on a glass shelf above my Onkyo receiver. Logically, and according to the second Law of Thermal Dynamics, that receiver should be the warmest.

About time for D* to let us know what the temp parameters are for all the 20/21s. And tell us exactly what happens if a 20/21 reaches a critical temp where the thermal protection is going to kick in. I know what happens on a TiVo, but have never seen anything other than conjecture about what happens if a certain temp is exceeded on a 20/21.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> fan is thermostatic.. if you get them cold enough it won't even run..


My Panny plasma won't turn on by remote control (either it's own mote or the DVR's) until it is on for a while. Second Panny I've had in my hidey hole and both of them did the same thing. Just as both 21-700s I've had in this room both read 77 degrees. Be interesting to see if the heat sensor begins to work on the 21 now that it is in a much warmer room and if the 20 in my hidey hole begins to drop in temp. I have a feeling it is going to remain around 118 but...

Rich


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Ok, after a couple of weeks with the new Antec MX-1 enclosure See post 98 for details http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1656547&postcount=98 . I have not had any more lockups or freezeups.

So, I can agree that if your box is locking and freezing, the temperature may well be the issue, however, I do not beleive blank recordings or other recording issues no associated with lockups could be heat related.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

houskamp said:


> fan is thermostatic.. if you get them cold enough it won't even run..


That's probably the most important information at this point. Keep the temps down below 130 degrees via proper ventillation, and you should have no heat-related issues.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I moved my 21-700 from my hidey hole where it was reading 77 degrees to one of my family rooms. It is still reading 77 degrees. You were right, Puddy Tat! And you were the only one who knew. Kudos.
> 
> Now I've got a 20-700 in my freezing cold hidey hole and it is reading 118 degrees, same as upstairs in a relatively warm room. Puzzled, I thought the ambient temp of the room the 20/21 was in would affect the infernal temps, but this kinda puts the lie to that. What do you think?
> 
> Rich


The 20-700 has been down in this ice box for three days now and the temp is now up to 120 degrees. Strange, no?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Ok, after a couple of weeks with the new Antec MX-1 enclosure See post 98 for details http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1656547&postcount=98 . I have not had any more lockups or freezeups.
> 
> So, I can agree that if your box is locking and freezing, the temperature may well be the issue, however, I do not beleive blank recordings or other recording issues no associated with lockups could be heat related.


I've come to the conclusion that the temps play little or no part in the problems people have. I'm sure some 20/21s overheat, everything else happens to them why not that? I've never had one that approached 130 degrees. I look at all my readings on my seven 20/21s in my cool house (temp wise) and see a different reading on each one. Makes me think that the people who make the 20/21s have really poor quality control programs.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> The 20-700 has been down in this ice box for three days now and the temp is now up to 120 degrees. Strange, no?
> 
> Rich


That point is well taken, and underscores the fact that the internal temps reported on the HRx screens are not necessarily exact without some range of error....plust they are internal to the boxes themselves.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That point is well taken, and underscores the fact that the internal temps reported on the HRx screens are not necessarily exact without some range of error


Why would that be? I've worked with temp sensors for years and years and found them to be dependable. They've been around for enough time to get them right.



> ....plus they are internal to the boxes themselves.


I know they are an internal device, but they should still be affected by the ambient temp of the room they are in or the enclosure they are in.

I also don't think D*'s customers should have to go out and spend extra money on cooling pads, or fans or anything else. Ever had to buy a cooling device for a TV or a radio?

I really don't think overheating is an issue in the vast majority of the problems people have. In fact, I think an overheating DVR would be an anomaly and an obviously bad DVR.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Sensor is internal to the harddrive... so if it's off blame seagate/WD..
that said the DVRs can vary alot depending on placement.. It's actualy amazing how much they can change by little movements..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Sensor is internal to the harddrive... so if it's off blame seagate/WD..
> that said the DVRs can vary alot depending on placement.. It's actualy amazing how much they can change by little movements..


So, what we are reading is the internal HD's temp sensor?

I use eSATAs on all my 20/21s. Wouldn't that put less of a load on the internal HD and produce a lower internal temp?

My eSATAs are Cavalrys and FAPs. The FAPs run warmer than the Cavalrys. No fans on the FAPs. Special heat disbursing plastic cases.

I gotta say this one more time (for now): I don't think there is any kind of heat problem causing the 20/21s to malfunction.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> So, what we are reading is the internal HD's temp sensor?
> 
> I use eSATAs on all my 20/21s. Wouldn't that put less of a load on the internal HD and produce a lower internal temp?
> 
> ...


1. yep..
2. internal drive never shuts down (would be nice if it did)


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

rich584 said:


> I really don't think overheating is an issue in the vast majority of the problems people have. In fact, I think an overheating DVR would be an anomaly and an obviously bad DVR.
> 
> Rich


Exactly. It was pretty clear when the fan in my eSATA died. The box immediately started locking up pretty regularly. If it heats up, it dies.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Ok, after a couple of weeks with the new Antec MX-1 enclosure See post 98 for details http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1656547&postcount=98 . I have not had any more lockups or freezeups.
> 
> So, I can agree that if your box is locking and freezing, the temperature may well be the issue, however, I do not beleive blank recordings or other recording issues no associated with lockups could be heat related.


As the OP, your post makes me all warm and fuzzy.

HR20-100 stable for one year. Box since new has has been auxiliary cooled to mid-90s. All fine until introduction of crappo hot-to-touch Cavalry eSATA. Blank recordings, IKDs, the whole bit. Now using WD 1TB Green drive in Antec MX-1. System is absolutely stable. rich584 disagrees but that's okay. He has a solid setup as do I. If I didn't, I'd give some extra cooling a try.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Well, like I said, I am pretty doubtfull that random missed recordings, blank recordings and IKD are really caused primarily by heat issues. It seems to me that the symptoms of a heat problem are total lockups. Now, when my box started locking up, I did experience tons of IKDs in between totaly lockups so a sudden increase is good evidence of a heat problem IMO. Then again, my box was virtually unusable anyway.

The occaisional IKD and other issues have been with us forever and seem caused more by software or a hardware software interaction that goes awry (maybe the sudden increase when the drive was warm lends some credence to this, it may have increased error conditions that cause it). DirecTV has been working on these issues via software and I sure hope they would have sent the message back to the people who run the forum that they have isolated it to not being software if that was the case.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

my best guess:
lockups: more heat related
blank recordings: install/software


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> 1. yep..
> 2. internal drive never shuts down (would be nice if it did)


What would happen if the infernal drive was removed and the eSATA was the only HD available to the 20/21?

Where is the thermal shut off switch located?

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

rich584 said:


> What would happen if the infernal drive was removed and the eSATA was the only HD available to the 20/21?
> 
> Where is the thermal shut off switch located?
> 
> Rich


no clue.. Don't know wether the fan quits working or stays on in that case.. of course unplugging the internal drive would remove the largest heat source..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Exactly. It was pretty clear when the fan in my eSATA died. The box immediately started locking up pretty regularly. If it heats up, it dies.


A Cavalry eSATA?

I would expect any fan cooled electronic device to shut down if the fan malfunctions. What I'm curious about is what happens when the infernal temp gets so high the 20/21 shuts down. When this happens with a TiVo, you get a blue window that tells you the unit is too hot and has shut itself down.

Disconnected the fan in a TiVo about a year ago to see what would happen. Took about a week for it to shut down, but the unit was in my ice cold hidey hole and I would expect that it would have shut down earlier in a warmer room.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

schneid said:


> As the OP, your post makes me all warm and fuzzy.
> 
> HR20-100 stable for one year. Box since new has has been auxiliary cooled to mid-90s. All fine until introduction of crappo hot-to-touch Cavalry eSATA.


What is the model and size of the Cavalry? I've got three of the newest models of the 750s and they are quite silent and only warm to the touch.



> rich584 disagrees but that's okay. He has a solid setup as do I. If I didn't, I'd give some extra cooling a try.


Let me clarify my standing on this issue: I do agree with all the people who posted that under some circumstances heat can and will be an issue. For instance, my wife wanted to put a new 21-700 in a drawer of a dresser and put her 42" Panny plasma on top of the dresser. I know that sounds stupid and that was my reaction when she told me her plans. All she could see was the fact that the DVR mote in the RF mode would allow her to hide the 21 in a drawer.

She has a Bachelor's degree in Computer Sciences and a Master's degree in a similar discipline. Still, she wanted to do something so stupid that I could not believe she didn't think the whole thing thru. When I asked her how the 21 was going to get cooled, she just said, "Oh, I see."

My point here is that sometimes people will put electronic devices in places that will definitely cause harm to the device. That is "user error" and not the fault of the device.

My opinion on this thread has been general in nature and not specific to something such as my wife contemplated. And, generally speaking, if you treat the 20/21s properly and place them where they can cool themselves, extra cooling steps such as fans or cooling pads are not necessary.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Lee L said:


> Well, like I said, I am pretty doubtfull that random missed recordings, blank recordings and IKD are really caused primarily by heat issues. It seems to me that the symptoms of a heat problem are total lockups. Now, when my box started locking up, I did experience tons of IKDs in between totaly lockups so a sudden increase is good evidence of a heat problem IMO. Then again, my box was virtually unusable anyway.
> 
> The occaisional IKD and other issues have been with us forever and seem caused more by software or a hardware software interaction that goes awry (maybe the sudden increase when the drive was warm lends some credence to this, it may have increased error conditions that cause it). DirecTV has been working on these issues via software and I sure hope they would have sent the message back to the people who run the forum that they have isolated it to not being software if that was the case.


Once again an acronym that baffles me. What is an IKD? I wish the forum would ban obscure acronyms. Not that I want to type "free agent pro" when I can use FAP, but I'm pretty sure most people, by now, know what an FAP is. I guess the acronyms are a necessary evil and I do hate to have anything banned.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> my best guess:
> lockups: more heat related
> blank recordings: install/software


My blank recordings were caused by the two NRs before 230 on the one 21 that I had at the time. My 20-700s have never produced a blank recording. Any lockups I have had were caused by bad eSATAs, mostly Cavalrys and that was a long time ago and only one FAP. Replacing the eSATAs stopped the lockups, so I don't see a heat related problem there. And the eSATAs were not overly warm when the lockups occurred.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Replacing the eSATAs stopped the lockups, so I don't see a heat related problem there. And the eSATAs were not overly warm when the lockups occurred.
> 
> Rich


Then that would seem to clearly point out there is something with either the eSata cable or drive device itself (which may include compatibility).


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

rich584 said:


> What is the model and size of the Cavalry? I've got three of the newest models of the 750s and they are quite silent and only warm to the touch.


I just (yesterday) received a 1TB Cavalry, and agree: it's warm to the touch, definitely not hot. I'd say barely above body temp, maybe 100° or so. It has no fan. All the recent reports I've seen say they use WD GP drives. There's a warranty sticker over the screw that I didn't feel like removing, but based on the low noise and heat, I would expect it to be a GP. (is GP as obvious an abbreviation as FAP?)


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> no clue.. Don't know wether the fan quits working or stays on in that case.. of course unplugging the internal drive would remove the largest heat source..


Wouldn't you think that the infernal HD was the most susceptible part of the hardware and if it failed because of heat related problems and wasn't being used what would happen? It must be connected in such a way that overheating would cause the unit to shut down, but how could that cause the issues everyone reports? This just gets more confusing.

I know how a TiVo works. You pull the plug on the fan and after a while the unit overheats and shuts down, but it will work perfectly until it does (at least the TiVo that I pulled the fan plug out of the mother board did). I'd still like to know if the 20/21s give you any indication of an over temp issue as do the TiVos.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then that would seem to clearly point out there is something with either the eSata cable or drive device itself (which may include compatibility).


Those first Cavalrys that I bought when the eSATA function was enabled were pure crap. They are now quite reliable (I hope). The reason I keep trying the Cavalrys is that the 21s won't work with the Seagate FAPs. I just bought a 2TB Cavalry and hope that works. Should be delivered Friday or Monday (I wish UPS delivered on Saturdays as FedEx does).

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

DarinC said:


> I just (yesterday) received a 1TB Cavalry, and agree: it's warm to the touch, definitely not hot. I'd say barely above body temp, maybe 100° or so. It has no fan. All the recent reports I've seen say they use WD GP drives. There's a warranty sticker over the screw that I didn't feel like removing, but based on the low noise and heat, I would expect it to be a GP. (is GP as obvious an abbreviation as FAP?)


Oh, Lord protect my poor mind! I have no idea what a GP is. I do know that it is not an abbreviation, it is an acronym. Global Positioner? Good Party? Grand Parent? I give up, what does it mean? I have no clue.

Rich


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Sorry, I thought it was common usage in the context of hard drive discussions. Western Digital Green Power.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

DarinC said:


> Sorry, I thought it was common usage in the context of hard drive discussions. Western Digital Green Power.


You're probably correct in your assumption. I suppose most people would know that, but I'm just a PDE and don't pretend to know the electronic nomenclature.

Rich


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

IKD= instant keep/delete bug.. play recording and it goes straight to the keep/delete screen..
I just want to know what an "infernal" drive is.. a very bad drive? :grin:
As for what a HR2x does when it overheats mine that I did all the testing on (21-700 CE test) had a bad drive that shut down when hot.. it would just lockup the reciever.. no warning screen at all..


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Oh and if it stayed too hot you could reboot it and it would start up, get to live tv and freeze about 30sec later.. almost like you could watch memory the buffer fill up..


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> IKD= instant keep/delete bug.. play recording and it goes straight to the keep/delete screen..


Thank you.



> I just want to know what an "infernal" drive is.. a very bad drive? :grin:


Nah, I just got sick of typing "internal" and actually posted that I would be calling it the "infernal" drive from now on. First time some one has asked me since that post.



> As for what a HR2x does when it overheats mine that I did all the testing on (21-700 CE test) had a bad drive that shut down when hot.. it would just lockup the reciever.. no warning screen at all..


Yet another oversight on D*'s part. Thanx for the info.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

houskamp said:


> Oh and if it stayed too hot you could reboot it and it would start up, get to live tv and freeze about 30sec later.. almost like you could watch memory the buffer fill up..


Would be nice to see an explanatory message appear as it does when a TiVo heats up too much, no?

Rich


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

I donlt think I have ever read where someone got a full screen message on their HR2x stating it was too warm. I think it just tries to keep running no matter what.


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## schneid (Aug 14, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Once again an acronym that baffles me. What is an IKD? I wish the forum would ban obscure acronyms. Not that I want to type "free agent pro" when I can use FAP, but I'm pretty sure most people, by now, know what an FAP is. I guess the acronyms are a necessary evil and I do hate to have anything banned.
> 
> Rich


IKD=Instant Keep or Delete. Baffled me at first, so I searched it.


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