# Whole House over RG6



## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

Hi, I have a problem that has been with me since I upgraded to HD TV's. 

I have 3 HD Receivers feeding a Channel Plus Model 5445, with the output going to coax RG6. On the output side of the 5445, I combine my OTA signal and feed the coax that goes to 6 rooms in my home. 

When I had only analog TV's this worked just fine, but now that I have HD TV's the 2 analog TV's have one or more horizontal white bars that slowly scroll up the screen & the HD TV's have the same, but the picture is much more unstable & the entire picture rolls as well. 

My first thought was that this was a ground loop, so I had DTV come check their installation, but they said it was the wiring in the house. My electrician came & tested, but found no problem.

The strange thing is that the OTA channels are all rock solid & perfect HD. It's only the satellite channels that have the bars, scrolling, & instability?


After some research I upgraded from the rf distribution box I had to the 5435, which produces a much stronger signal to all TV's, but I still have the horizontal bars. 

The output of the 5445 feeds channels 54, 58, & 62. 

What do I need to do to get rid of the bars? I read about a lie pass filter & other thing, but don't know what to do. DTV has been no help & there are no local experts who have any answers. I'm confused that this would start when I added HD receivers to the mix. Do they have much poorer receivers than the old analog sets?

The OTA channels in this area (West TN) range from 3, 3-1 up to 50-4.

Any help would be appreciated, but I'm not an engineer, so be specific with suggestions, please.


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## Yoda-DBSguy (Nov 4, 2006)

orchids said:


> Hi, I have a problem that has been with me since I upgraded to HD TV's.
> 
> I have 3 HD Receivers feeding a Channel Plus Model 5445, with the output going to coax RG6. On the output side of the 5445, I combine my OTA signal and feed the coax that goes to 6 rooms in my home.
> 
> ...


It's not a DirecTV issue at all. It's more of an overlapping of the mixed in modulated stations conflicting with local channels that conflict with the same or close frequency ranges.

You can try to change the modulated receivers output channel on each modulator by trial and error to a channel that does NOT produce the undesired effect (the rolling bar lines or rolling picture).

With cable or antenna you can use a frequency block filter to block all stations abovecetain number, then modulate the directv receivers in after the filters in that channel range. for example, in houston, there are only spanish stations avove channel 55. so you could block those and assign each modulator to any channel number above that range like 58, 60, and 62......

Also try making sure that all equipment (DirecTV receivers, the channel plus 5445, any external amps, etc are all plugged into the same outlet. This will eliminate any ground loop that may exist). You can temporarily do this with a long extention cable to any equipment not within normal reach of the outlet. this will rukle out any ground varience or loop that wasn't detected by your electrician.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I agree with Yoda-DBSguy. I have a similar installation using a quantity of UHF modulators, and have to do both (a) experiment with the right mix of channels and (b) use a low-pass filter on the incoming cable line to block anything above cable channel 30.

I found (a couple of years ago) when my cable company went to digital signals I had to make a number of changes in channel assignments, and add a second low-pass filter in series to block the unwanted "noise".

I also want to warn you that once you get the new HD user interface, you are going to be pretty unhappy with what happens on the SD outputs. The GUI only displays in HD, and you get a message on the SD outputs (that blocks most of the screen) that you need to change resolution. There are a couple of other threads about this issue, so you can search for those for more information.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

I have seen modulators themselves do that but you said you replaced the modulator and have the same issue. My suggestion would be to completely disconnect the RCA inputs so nothing is plugged in. The pix on your modulated channels should show a blank black screen. If the rolling is gone for each channel then you know it must be something with the new receivers. If its still there try removing the antenna feed. 

That should tell you where the source of the problem is. It just makes sense that it will be one of the outputs of the receivers is doing this. If you still have the old receivers (even if its just on searching for sat) or something else (dvd, vcr, video game) you could sub into RCA inputs to see if there is a clean picture. 

When plugging back in make sure its not something like the a red audio lead is plugged into the RED component video out of one or all of the receivers.

Does the wiring have anything else on it like being hooked up to a SWM system this could explain that the DECA band is interfering.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bigglebowski said:


> If the rolling is gone for each channel then you know it must be something with the new receivers. If its still there try removing the antenna feed.


It's hard "to know" much through the internet, but I think you're saying something that seemed to most likely here and it's the grounding of the dish/receiver that has changed. Which is now causing the other grounds that aren't as good to use the DirecTV setup as a ground.
Removing the SAT feed should show if it is or isn't the source [or cause being a lower resistance to ground, aka: a better ground that the others].


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## volkl (Jun 17, 2007)

band pass filter fixed a similar problem for me. But this was w/ cable tv as a source.

You say your problem is not w/ the OTA channels, good, but was your channel plus designed to combine digital OTA and modulate channels within the digital OTA spectrum? My old channel plus had an option of using PAL, NTSC, or SECAM, not ATSC.

It's interesting that your SD tv's have OTA working.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm away from home this week and haven't tried the suggestions given, but will when I return. Here are the Specs on the Channel Plus 5445:

Four modulated TV channels
Creates TV channels for cameras or other video sources
Channel range: CATV 65-125 (excluding 95-99) and UHF 14-64
Pushbutton digital programming of modulated channels
Compatible with DA-8200 and DA-550 series distribution amplifiers

The Manual states:

Cable HRC and IRC considerations:
Most cable services use IRC frequency assignments. This is the default for the ChannelPlus modulators. However, if the cable service uses HRC or the TV appears to search for the "house channels," the modulator can be reprogrammed to use HRC assignments by entering the number “ 98”. Set to IRC by entering a “99”. Both of these settings are only used for setting HRC/IRC. : This setting can be entered on any modulator channel, A, B, C, or D, and affects all channel assignments for that unit. Cable channels must either be IRC or HRC.

I am using the default IRC setting, but since this is multiple satellite receivers, do I need to try HRC? I don't know what protocol DTV component output uses??

It would be nice to find a replacement for the 5445 that has HDMI inputs and coax outputs, but as far as I can tell, that only exists in the "professional" world and is priced 10x or 20x more than the 5445.

I have been told that part of the problem could be the HDTV's. I've been told that the older HDTV's could scan for all bands, but that the newer ones can only scan for Cable or OTA separately. When I combine everything with the 5445 the signal is recognized as AIR, but if I scan for Cable I get a few of the same channels, but not many.

Thanks for all the help so far. I really believe I should be able to do what I want to do with the coax I have, since the OTA channels are clear and register with the HDTV's as 1080i or p when the source material is 1080i or p. One source told me that RG6 couldn't transmit 1080i or p, but it obviously does.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

To answer veryoldschool's Post. I have tried grounding the satellite ground to the house ground, to its own ground, and no ground. There is no difference in the result.

Also the OTA and satellite feeds all share RG6 from the roof to the closet where the receivers are located... muxed at the roof and demuxed in the closet, where I use a splitter (in reverse) to combine the OTA and output of the 5445. I checked this splitter and it shows that it is a "two-way", i.e. either side can be input or output, so it can split or combine. I even tried grounding this splitter to the house ground, but no difference in the result.


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

If you're mixing a OTA signal into the sat cable it needs to be a diplexer not just a splitter

is the sat setup SWM or non-SWM?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

orchids said:


> To answer veryoldschool's Post. I have tried grounding the satellite ground to the house ground, to its own ground, and *no ground.* There is no difference in the result.
> 
> Also the OTA and satellite feeds all share RG6 from the roof to the closet where the receivers are located... muxed at the roof and demuxed in the closet, where I use a splitter (in reverse) to combine the OTA and output of the 5445. I checked this splitter and it shows that it is a "two-way", i.e. either side can be input or output, so it can split or combine. I even tried grounding this splitter to the house ground, but no difference in the result.


Well that should rule out the DirecTV aspect.
Without being there to see and try x,y,z... I'm :shrug:


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

If I remember correctly, I changed mine to HRC. Below is a quote from a post at Remotecentral.com regarding the difference. I would at least try the other setting and see what happens.

""HRC" is harmonically related carriers. "IRC" is incrementally related carriers. These are schemes that some cable systems use to reduce the visibility of beat products. 
"By harmonically relating the carrier frequencies themselves it is ... possible to improve system performance. This does not reduce the beats produced, but positions them within the system transmission spectrum such that they are more tolerable. In effect, all signal carriers are spaced precisely 6 MHz apart, thus all beats generated are at 6 MHz increments. 
"Since the television signals are vestigial sideband modulated, if the beat products can be manipulated to fall on or near the RF carriers themselves, they are much less offensive.."


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## volkl (Jun 17, 2007)

Your channel master cannot modulate into ATSC, it probably can only modulate inputs into UHF and cable channels. Connecting an antennae input worked only back when NTSC was the standard, and then you would modulate to a UHF channel. When connecting cable tv source, instead of antennae, then you would modulate to a Cable TV channel number. Your device can only modulate sources to either UHF or Cable, not both, depending on whether an NTSC antennae or a cable co. coax is the source. 

So if you have an antennae hooked to this, disconnect it, because it will be ATSC. Don't combine schemes and diplex them out. I don't think you can diplex ATSC with baseband cable. If you use a pure cable tv source, and you still have a line, get a blocker for a range of channels, then modulate to channels in the blocked range. Most cable companies have more than baseband on their wires, so there will often be interference in the upper cable range, necessitating a blocker to clean the cable signal of all the extra stuff.

The only way you can get quality HD is by connecting a separate antennae run to each tv. Everything coming out of the channel plus will be baseband cable and thus SD. Perhaps each HD tv has an A/B switch for two coaxial inputs.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

To answer DarkLogix's Post, I believe I have a non-SWM configuration, because DTV sent me B-Band Converters when they upgraded my Dish to handle HD. I believe the dish is the 3LNB version, which they said is the minimum for HD??


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

volkl said:


> So if you have an antennae hooked to this, disconnect it, because it will be ATSC. Don't combine schemes and diplex them out. I don't think you can diplex ATSC with baseband cable.


There is no problem mixing signals onto a single cable as long as the frequencies do not overlap. You can find out from various websites like antennaweb.org to find out what the ACTUAL frequencies are for your local broadcasters. Your set will not likely show you this number as it will use a "virtual" channel like 3-1 or 9-1. As long as the modulators you use do not use the same frequency you can stack them all day long. Just be aware that antennaweb will be talking UHF channel numbers which do not use the same channel plan as cable channels. Like ch18 UHF is actually ch69 on a cable lineup.

Cable frequencies are not baseband each channel whether its QAM, 8VSB, VHF/UHF or cable can be mixed, they all use 6mhz worth of space. Thats why Directv recommends not trying to mix antenna signal onto the same cable when using DECA since DECA uses a rather large chunk of bandwidth in the same space as a lot of broadcasters are in or at least one or more for your local area.

As for the HRC/IRC/STD most sets will have no trouble tuning either of them as the tuner will fine tune correctly. Some sets have to be set for HRC (during autoprogram) to tune correctly usually what you see is a channel that looks snowy because it hasnt locked into the frequency correctly. You might be able to tune back and forth and get the set to trick it into tuning and then lock on.

Long story short there is no reason you cant get one to a hundred modulators and combine them onto one coax and feed your off air antenna as well. Its just a mater of the TV under an autoprogram situation to find all the channels and display them correctly. Depending on when the set was built as to how well this will work. Most sets now just mix the off air in on their virtual number. It just depends on how they mix the 8vsb "air" signals in with standard cable channels.

The main issue with mixing all these things is they have to be balanced to work correctly. If you had a system where ch2 is 30db and ch3 is 5db ch2 is going to walk all over ch3. You would need a cable meter to figure this out but in your case since the modulator is agile you just set it as far away from the off air frequencies as you can. Even with the greatest antenna system you are not likely going to overpower the 25db coming out of the modulator which in itself may be a little hot even after you run through a 4way splitter which is about a 7db drop, not counting the cable runs themselves.

My point is that no reason the OP cant do what he described in the first post, there is just a balance problem or a setting problem on the modulator or TV.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

orchids said:


> To answer DarkLogix's Post, I believe I have a non-SWM configuration, because DTV sent me B-Band Converters when they upgraded my Dish to handle HD. I believe the dish is the 3LNB version, which they said is the minimum for HD??


"You know" if you're not on a SWiM, then the DirecTV signals use the 250-750 MHz band, right?


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

orchids said:


> To answer DarkLogix's Post, I believe I have a non-SWM configuration, because DTV sent me B-Band Converters when they upgraded my Dish to handle HD. I believe the dish is the 3LNB version, which they said is the minimum for HD??


From what info I've gained from vos in the past
1. you need diplexers not splitters
2. you can't diplex with a 3LNB unless its swm (round dish you can but not the 3 or 5 lnb)

so you have overlapping signals and your using the wrong equ to merge the signals

your options
1. convert to SWM (to help you figure out what you need we'll need to know the number of tuners your home uses
2. to diplex at the dish you'll need to use a SWM LNB which is limited to only 8Tuners, and has the rish that you might have to reaim the dish if you aren't careful
3. if you also want to use Deca then even more info will be needed as deca used the same range as diplexing OTA does

also VOS might be able to answer this part can th PI thats required for SWM pass through Diplexers or is that yet another issue with trying to Diplex?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DarkLogix said:


> From what info I've gained from vos in the past
> 1. you need diplexers not splitters
> 2. you can't diplex with a 3LNB unless its swm (round dish you can but not the 3 or 5 lnb)
> 
> ...


While a SWiM IS THE BEST option, the older legacy has been diplexed before. What needs to happen [and work] is to relocate the BBC(s) to before the diplexing.
The BBC converts the 250-750 MHz band to 1650-2150 MHz.


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

ok I wasn't sure if the BBC could be moved that far upstream

so he just needs to change from splitters to diplexers and put the BBC's prior to the Diplexers (however how well can BBC's take the weather?)
since it seems he's merging the signals outside (or did I get that wrong), and then unmerging them inside


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DarkLogix said:


> ok I wasn't sure if the BBC could be moved that far upstream
> 
> so he just needs to change from splitters to diplexers and put the BBC's prior to the Diplexers (however how well can BBC's take the weather?)
> since it seems he's merging the signals outside (or did I get that wrong), and then unmerging them inside


This is way off the "supported" route, and the BBCs aren't weather "rated" at all. If the distances are too far, then it won't work, but how far is too far?


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

veryoldschool said:


> but how far is too far?


Thats a question for VOS


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

DarkLogix said:


> Thats a question for VOS


I have ZERO information on a device that was designed to be connected to the receiver's input, as to how far it can be stretched before it craps out. :shrug:


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

veryoldschool said:


> I have ZERO information on a device that was designed to be connected to the receiver's input, as to how far it can be stretched before it craps out. :shrug:


You disapoint me 
just kiding, I say someone should try it and find out
I guess you didn't pick up on the sarcastic smily


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## volkl (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks, bigglebowski.

Learned a lot. Your post is informative. I never had any luck at balancing the inputs.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

Since I didn't go into any detail on my configuration before, I'll do it now.

I have three coax's coming off the dish going into my attic. In the attic DTV muxed the three coax's and the coax from the antenna into a single coax. This coax goes from there to the media closet, where DTV demuxed the three dish feeds and the OTA into four coax's again. The three dish coax's connect to the BBC's which screw into each of DTV HD receivers (no DVR's). The component output of the three receivers feed the 5445. The coax output of the 5445 goes into one side of, I believe a splitter, but I will check that when I get home tonight, and the OTA goes into the other input. The output goes to the coax that goes back to the attic where it is split into feeds for 8 TV drops in the house.

All coax is RG6, which was installed when the house was remodeled a few years ago.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

> I have three coax's coming off the dish going into my attic. In the attic DTV muxed the three coax's and the coax from the antenna into a single coax


So here's the problem.
Three coax means it isn't a SWiM, and is using the 250-750 MHz band. "muxing" the antenna is causing this.

"So" to check/prove this:
Pull the power cords on all DirecTV receivers. Does the problem go away?
If so, then this is true.
If not, you're still screwed. :lol:

If the problem [reading your first post] is only on the DirecTV feed, then remove the antenna feed and check the picture on DirecTV.


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

And means the installer was imo sloppy as the LNB should have a 4th coax connector on it that if a cable isn't connected might be exposed to weather somewhat (sure you have the lnb arm around it)

I'd run a 4th cable from the LNB to a grounding block and put a cap on the 1 open grounding block connector

um so you have all 3 dish coaxes running on 1 coax? that seems odd and maybe problematic


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

volkl said:


> So if you have an antennae hooked to this, disconnect it, because it will be ATSC. Don't combine schemes and diplex them out.


ATSC and NTSC can most certainly coexist on the same coax. You just need to be careful about which real channel the ATSC stations are using to avoid overlap.

It is mixing anything with cable TV that is dicey as all channels are typically used.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I'm thinking some of these are going to be needed:
http://www.google.com/products/cata...=9LrzTpP3FMrTiAKsyI3MDg&sqi=2&ved=0CC8Q8wIwAg


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Apart from the other issues which have been mentioned, you should take into account that there may be other stations not quite in your area that have enough signal to cause interference even if you can't see the programming. Here in DFW it was virtually impossible to find four "clear" frequencies for my Channel + modulator to operate. Just avoiding the channels you know about (using real channel numbers, not the virtual ones), is not enough. Here in DFW there is just enough signal from the off-air stations in places like Sherman and Waco to create interference if I use their frequencies.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> So here's the problem.
> Three coax means it isn't a SWiM, and is using the 250-750 MHz band. "muxing" the antenna is causing this.


When I first read the OP I was under the impression that there was no sharing of the coax with sat. So there was absolutely no reason that mixing modulated catv channels with off air (of any era) would not work. 250-750MHz is pretty much where all UHF channels are, you could get away with VHF (only 1 out of 10 chs in charlotte broadcasts in VHF) or any modulated catv channels of 2-27. So with any modern version of Dish/Direct its just not advisable to mix.

If the antenna signal could be pulled directly to the mixing point this issue could be fixed. But that would assume that the 3 receivers, the modulator, the antenna cable and the 8 way splitter output could all be at the same place in the house, which is where I assumed it was all along.

The RF output of the modulator would be on one output side of a 2 way splitter and the antenna feed would be on the other output connector on that 2 way. The input side of the 2 way splitter would be the input of the 8 way splitter. No special 2way splitter required, any designed for catv purpose would be fine.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bigglebowski said:


> When I first read the OP I was under the impression that there was no sharing of the coax with sat. So there was absolutely no reason that mixing modulated catv channels with off air (of any era) would not work. 250-750MHz is pretty much where all UHF channels are, you could get away with VHF (only 1 out of 10 chs in charlotte broadcasts in VHF) or any modulated catv channels of 2-27. So with any modern version of Dish/Direct its just not advisable to mix.
> 
> If the antenna signal could be pulled directly to the mixing point this issue could be fixed. But that would assume that the 3 receivers, the modulator, the antenna cable and the 8 way splitter output could all be at the same place in the house, which is where I assumed it was all along.
> 
> The RF output of the modulator would be on one output side of a 2 way splitter and the antenna feed would be on the other output connector on that 2 way. The input side of the 2 way splitter would be the input of the 8 way splitter. No special 2way splitter required, any designed for catv purpose would be fine.


Life gets so much easier when not using the DECA networking and using the SWiM system for this.
2.3 MHz to the SWiM, and 974 MHz and up from the SWiM to the receivers.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

DarkLogix said:


> And means the installer was imo sloppy as the LNB should have a 4th coax connector on it that if a cable isn't connected might be exposed to weather somewhat (sure you have the lnb arm around it)
> 
> I'd run a 4th cable from the LNB to a grounding block and put a cap on the 1 open grounding block connector


While Ive never worked in the residential market, I have no idea if that is what an installer is supposed to do in that regard. Even if the cable pull is a fairly short run it seems excessive to me, especially when that material would be coming out of installers costs/time. Besides why not put that same "cap" on the F connector inside the LNB arm it would be more weatherproof there then the exposed ground block? I added a receiver to a dual LNB sd dish a month ago that has been sitting inside that arm for 10 years and it works fine with great signal and it was never weatherized back then.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bigglebowski said:


> While Ive never worked in the residential market, I have no idea if that is what an installer is supposed to do in that regard. Even if the cable pull is a fairly short run it seems excessive to me, especially when that material would be coming out of installers costs/time. Besides why not put that same "cap" on the F connector inside the LNB arm it would be more weatherproof there then the exposed ground block? I added a receiver to a dual LNB sd dish a month ago that has been sitting inside that arm for 10 years and it works fine with great signal and it was never weatherized back then.


The "exposed" connector of the LNB, is fairly well sheltered in the arm.


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## DarkLogix (Oct 21, 2011)

veryoldschool said:


> The "exposed" connector of the LNB, is fairly well sheltered in the arm.


Ya while true it can actually cost less time to just do the 4th coax

way back when they installed the AT9 dish on my roof they did the same thing except they put a 4th that ended halfway down the roof (ie couldn't actually be used)

and to do only 3 they had to peel apart bunch of the paired coax that they normally have on the truck, some time later when I upgraded my H20 to an HR20 I had to extend that 4th coax (used heat shrinks, barrel, and more heat shrinks) it worked though the 4th coax was never as good as the other 3, then hurricane Ike hit and they ended up putting up an AU-9 and redid the cables (much better) (the 4th output on the old LNB was not upto the same quality anymore as the others, and water never got into the barrel)


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

My sons and I have spent a lot of time over the holiday troubleshooting the issue. Here is what we found.

1. I have a diplexewr and not a splitter, so that shouldn't be the issue.

2. As stated in the beginning, the OTA signal is just fine at all HDTV receivers. We still have a couple of old analog TV's that haven't bitten-the-dust yet, so we still use them as well.

3. The output of any receiver directly into an HDTV via HDMI or component is just fine... no rolling or bands.

4. The output of the Channel Plus 5445 into an HDTV via coax is just fine... no rolling or bands.

5. The output of the diplexer, at the diplexer is just fine.

6. The output at the various HD and analog receivers in the house still rolls and has bands, so my conclusion is that either the coax in the house is the problem or where the single coax out of the diplexer is split is the problem.

I don't have time this weekend to continue my research, but I'm much further along than I was this time last Thursday!

Not sure what to do from here if the problem is the coax, since a lot of it was put in when we added onto the house several years ago?

Does anyone have any suggestions?

BTW, thanks for all the help so far!!!


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

In the last post above I forgot to mention that the OTA comes from the roof to a Channel Master amp in the same closet as everything else. The output of the diplexer goes to a TV-VCR Distribution Amp and the output of that goes to a 5-way splitter, with one output from there going to another 5-way to cover all the drops in the house.

The splitters are PETRA TM, 5-way splitters, 5-900MHz.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

From your original post:



orchids said:


> I have 3 HD Receivers feeding a Channel Plus Model 5445, with the output going to coax RG6. On the output side of the 5445, I combine my OTA signal and feed the coax that goes to 6 rooms in my home.


What happens if you take the output of the diplexer and feed a single tv directly (rather than going through the entire house coax system)?
So you have the combined modulated signals from your receivers with the ota mixed in. Is that where you say "the output of the diplexer is just fine"?


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

Is everything that comes after the channel plus modulator the same as it was before when it worked properly? If yes start by completely isolating the Directv equipment from the system. Remove power from all Directv devices and disconnect the leads from the channel plus inputs. Do you have at least one device either DVD, VCR, game system or anything with composite video output that you can substitute as one of the inputs to the channel plus. Usually modulators with no input will show a blank black screen so you would still see the rolling bars if they were being generated by the mod or some other device after the mod. So even if only one channel had a source the other channels should still broadcast a blank picture free of lines. 

If the problem is still there then you need to investigate the amplifiers and diplexers. Either of which should be able to be bypassed with a barrel/splice. Lastly if still have lines, disconnect each remote tv one at a time to see if problem clears up, in case one is backfeeding. That is rare but I have seen it happen at a hotel. From there I would say sub the modulator, but that was the first thing you tried with same results...


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

Since the output side of the diplexer directly to a single HDTV, without going through the TV-VCR Distribution Amp, is clear for all 3 satellite receivers and the OTA, my next test is to look at the output of the Amp to see if the lines/rolling appears. If it does then that component is bad. I believe the clear image out at the diplexer eliminates the modulator and diplexer as the problem.

If it is still clear out of the Amp, I will remove all outputs from the splitters in the media closet and add them back one at a time to see if one of the TV's is causing the problem.

During my research over the holiday, I discovered that one of the analog TV's may still have RG59 coax from the media closet. I'm going to verify this and move the TV to another drop in the same room that I know is RG6, if this is the case.

Since I work a couple of hundred miles from home, it will be next weekend before I can do any further research.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Well, you've certainly got a well planned procedure to narrow down and isolate the problem. Please do let us know what you ultimately find.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

orchids said:


> 1. I have a diplexewr and not a splitter, so that shouldn't be the issue.


Diplexers are typically used in pairs. Where are the diplexers?

I suspect that we need to fully understand what you mean when you said that DIRECTV "muxed" the satellite and OTA. Multiplexed isn't the correct term for anything that DIRECTV did with your OTA signal (or their satellite signal for that matter).

If you're trying to combine OTA channels with OTA modulated frequencies, you need to be using a splitter. I'm assuming you have a four way splitter (combiner) on the modulator outputs and the fourth port is coming somehow from your OTA antenna.

A picture (diagram) may be worth more than a hundred posts in this thread.

Are all of these receivers located in the same place?


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

orchids said:


> Since the output side of the diplexer directly to a single HDTV, without going through the TV-VCR Distribution Amp, is clear for all 3 satellite receivers and the OTA, my next test is to look at the output of the Amp to see if the lines/rolling appears. If it does then that component is bad. I believe the clear image out at the diplexer eliminates the modulator and diplexer as the problem.


Isnt the problem with the modulated channels? If so why verify reception of HD antenna signal at another point upstream of your system when it works fine after going through all of that gear downstream?

My point was to focus on the modulated signals which is why I said remove the Directv equipment since it was the main thing that was changed and messed up a working system. One thing I forgot to mention in previous post was to look at the HRC/IRC/STD setting. If possible put the modulator in STD mode.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

Earlier I mentioned that DTV "muxed" the satellite and OTA signals in the attic, near the dish and "demuxed" them in the media closet. That info was from memory, when DTV installed the initial STD satellite dish and was incorrect. This is how it was initially done, but is not how it is today.

When we added onto the house, we ran multiple coax from the attic to the media closet, so when DTV installed the 3LNB dish for HD reception, they ran all three satellite feeds and the OTA as separate coax from the attic to the media closet.

All three receivers are in the media closet and feed the modulator. The modulator has a single coax output. According to the 5445 data sheet, it outputs either IRC or HRC, user selectable, but not STD. I have tried both settings and get the same lines/rolling at all TV's.

The diplexer is a 2->1 model, with the output of the single coax from the modulator and the OTA coax going into the input side and a single coax coming out of the output side. As I said above, when I tested the output of the diplexer with an HDTV, there were no lines/rolling of the modulated channels. As far as I can tell, this is the only diplexer in the system.

The output of this diplexer goes to the TV-VCR Distribution Amp and the output of the Amp goes into a 1->4 splitter. Three of the outputs of the splitter go to TV's and the fourth goes to another 1->4 splitter to feed the remaining TV's. There are 6 TV's currently connected, with the remaining drops not connected.

After reading many posts about splitters, I believe I would get a more uniform signal if I could find a 1->7 or 1->8 splitter, so that I didn't have some of the signals going through a second splitter and reducing the signal strength. I have noticed that some TV's have "weaker" signals for both the DTV as well as the OTA channels.

Another data point I observed while testing over the holiday is that I can fine tune the DTV channels to remove the lines/rolling, but this "detunes" the signal so far that the image is very poor, snowy, and fades in and out, so is not a solution. I thought this was an indication that the channels I have coming out of the modulator are too close to some of the OTA channels, but since the output of the diplexer is clear, I rejected this. The modulated channels are 53, 60, & 65.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

orchids said:


> I thought this was an indication that the channels I have coming out of the modulator are too close to some of the OTA channels, but since the output of the diplexer is clear, I rejected this. The modulated channels are 53, 60, & 65.


CATV chs 53 and 60 dont conflict with UHF channels but 65 could interfere if there was a local broadcast of UHF ch14. If not you would be in the clear there.

How about if you bypass the amp, you should have enough signal coming out of your mod to not need another amp. Now its possible you need the amp for the antenna but its probably safe to assume that even through the cascading 1:4 --> another 1:4 you would have enough. There are issues with inputting too much signal into an amplifier and causing the very issues you are having. Modulators generally have an amp in them, yours has a 25db output which should be plenty strong for more TVs than you have. That much signal going through a 2way splitter (3db drop) would not attenuate the signal enough to be fed into an amp. Amps we use in hotels like these http://www.tonercable.com/Products/aca-series/ call for no more than 14 db as the maximum amount of input threshold.

Now do you need that amp for your antenna signal? Maybe, if that is the case then use it only on the antenna line and combine the output of that amp to the output of the mod then into your distribution splitters.

When you reference signal strength of local channels were you talking about a meter on the TV. Dont get carried away too much on these especially if they are from different TVs. Now pixilating images or freezing would clearly be lack of digital signal.

You could be right about using a 1:8 splitter but it would only bump those levels that go through the second splitter while now reducing those initial 3 runs off your first splitter. So some lines would loose signal while others lost. We are talking 2-4 Db. You should hook the furthest lines from the source to the first splitter.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

I've been doing more research today and came across a suggestion that I should use a terminator on any ports of the splitter without a coax hooked to it. Some people reported that this helped and others said they couldn't tell the difference. At $0.59 each, it's not an expensive thing to try.

I've also researched 8-way splitters and I find some that claim to be lossless. I wonder if that would give me the same signal strength to all TV's? Also, I see 8-way amplified splitters that have a 4db gain on the output. They say they work with cable and OTA, but don't say anything about DTV. I would think that since the DTV is being converted to UHF, that shouldn't matter.

I've done some reading about the conversion from analog to digital TV and Wikipedia says that UHF channels 52-69 have been re-purposed for things like ATV. I wonder if I could be getting interference on the long coax runs from someone with an amateur TV transmitter in my area?


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

orchids said:


> I've been doing more research today and came across a suggestion that I should use a terminator on any ports of the splitter without a coax hooked to it. Some people reported that this helped and others said they couldn't tell the difference. At $0.59 each, it's not an expensive thing to try.
> 
> I've also researched 8-way splitters and I find some that claim to be lossless. I wonder if that would give me the same signal strength to all TV's? Also, I see 8-way amplified splitters that have a 4db gain on the output. They say they work with cable and OTA, but don't say anything about DTV. I would think that since the DTV is being converted to UHF, that shouldn't matter.
> 
> I've done some reading about the conversion from analog to digital TV and Wikipedia says that UHF channels 52-69 have been re-purposed for things like ATV. I wonder if I could be getting interference on the long coax runs from someone with an amateur TV transmitter in my area?


Terminators are ideal and recommended in CATV but might not be as critical as using terminators in SWM systems.

Passive CATV 8way splitters usually drop signal 12-14db, losseless doesnt make sense. Unless its an active splitter like you mention which amp each leg so it appears lossless or +db gain on outputs. You shouldn't need more gain in your system. Out of your mod at +25db the loss of the 8way splitter would be more than enough gain for well over 100' of cable. Amplifying your modulator output is much more of the problem.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

A conventional diplexer (<1GHz/>1GHz) is the WRONG TOOL for combining OTA signals as most are typically in the UHF band. You need to be using a 2-way splitter to combine your antenna with your modulator output.

If you're using an VHF-UHF diplexer, the VHF side probably isn't going to pass enough UHF to give you a quality signal.

At some point, you're going to want to go to HD and your whole setup will be out the window. You should either start running pairs of CAT5 now or think about locating the receivers near the televisions.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bigglebowski said:


> Terminators are ideal and recommended in CATV but *might not be as critical as using terminators in SWM systems*.
> 
> Passive CATV 8way splitters usually drop signal 12-14db, losseless doesnt make sense. Unless its an active splitter like you mention which amp each leg so it appears lossless or +db gain on outputs. You shouldn't need more gain in your system. Out of your mod at +25db the loss of the 8way splitter would be more than enough gain for well over 100' of cable. Amplifying your modulator output is much more of the problem.


Actually all unused outputs on a SWiM system SHOULD BE terminated.
Another thing as I read your [helpful] posts: you throw "dB" around a lot, but don't use dBm, dBmV, etc., "in places" you should. "dB" is only a ratio, and needs a reference to be a power measurement [in regards to overloading an amp's input].


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

orchids said:


> I've been doing more research today...


It would really, really, help [me] if you would post an interconnected layout drawing of what you have.
I'm trying to see/figure out the frequencies used on what coax, but don't have a clue.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Actually all unused outputs on a SWiM system SHOULD BE terminated.
> Another thing as I read your [helpful] posts: you throw "dB" around a lot, but don't use dBm, dBmV, etc., "in places" you should. "dB" is only a ratio, and needs a reference to be a power measurement [in regards to overloading an amp's input].


Your absolutely right, I rarely use nor do I see techs in the industry use it that much. When you talk you certainly dont say the part after dB. Just like capitalizing the B in dB I rarely type it that way, but I know its supposed to be. Its just more of a generalization for me, but again you are correct that it should be there. In the real world we use it day to day by adding and subtracting the gains and losses anyway. The concept of it being logarithmic and actually a ratio is lost on most techs. Without signal meters to read these signals its kind of moot anyway. Like me talking about balancing levels, how do you do that without a meter. You can do it with a TV and attenuators but who has those laying around besides someone in private cable business? I brought it up because it seemed that the OP was trying to make the signal stronger when he probably needs it weaker.

The terminator bit was posted because he brought it up probably in regards to reading about having to terminate SWM connections. While you SHOULD do this with a SMATV system its NOT the fix. I dont think I ever saw a connection in CATV/SMATV that had to have a terminator.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bigglebowski said:


> The terminator bit was posted because he brought it up probably in regards to reading about having to terminate SWM connections. While you SHOULD do this with a SMATV system its NOT the fix. I dont think I ever saw a connection in CATV/SMATV that had to have a terminator.


CATV/SMATV may not need them as much as SWiM does, but since SWiM is a two-way system [receivers talk to the SWiM] "bouncing signals" around in the coax, isn't the best thing.

dB works fine for loss/gain, but for power you really need to know if it's dBm or dBmV, since 0 dBm = 49 dBmV


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

For those who asked for it, I've created a block diagram of the setup. See attached .jpeg file.


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## Yoda-DBSguy (Nov 4, 2006)

orchids said:


> For those who asked for it, I've created a block diagram of the setup. See attached .jpeg file.


First off replace the diplexer with a 2 input/1 output combiner as a diplevxer is used to combine or seperate satellite with antenna or cable feeds BEFORE the satellite receiver---NOT after. Next, replace all your other splitters with ones that have a rating of at least 1Ghz.

Additionally I would remove the 2 splitters you have feeding the house TVs and replace it with (1) 6 output version.

You could also place a DC blocker after the output of one or both of the amplifiers in your system to eliminate minute power in the line causing the issue.

Check your system at that point. If the problem persists, you may need to attenuate each line accounting for it's total length or replace your amplifier with a better push/pull designed adjustible model with a frequency rating that goes upto at least 1Ghz. I personally use channel plus or winegard models depending on the needs of the client.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

orchids said:


> For those who asked for it, I've created a block diagram of the setup. See attached .jpeg file.


Thanks, as that does rule out a whole bunch of what it isn't.
I also agree that a splitter is better than a diplexer for that application.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I have had to put filters on the ota line to get rid of problems. There is a LOT of rf running around out there, and even if it isn't on a specific television frequency it can still cause problems, even in the form of 2nd or 3rd harmonics. I agree, replace the diplexer with a splitter (used as a combiner). As to whether you stack splitters (as you are now doing) or run everything off one splitter, I guess the distance between the two splitters in your illustration could well be a factor that determines your best choice.

I also agree, your distribution amp may be giving you too much signal. What happens if you remove it from the system? If that isn't enough signal, maybe throw one or two 3db filters in line after it to attenuate the signal a little.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

orchids said:


> For those who asked for it, I've created a block diagram of the setup.


Nice diagram. Thank you!

Do you also have the HD receivers connected via HDMI or component to the HDTVs?


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

Since all my receivers are in a media closet and I distribute to 6+ TV's in the house, I don't have any HDMI runs. I use component out of the receivers into the modulator.

If I can't resolve the lines/rolling problem, I've been looking into several options to get HD to at least the HDTV's.

I've been looking at the Nyrius NAVS500HD 1080p Wireless HDMI (which seems to be the best, although most expensive), VIZIO XWH200 Universal Wireless HD Video and Audio Kit (which is cheaper, but seems to be only line-of-sight, according to reviews), and Brite-View Air SyncHD (BV-2322) Uncompressed 1080p Video/ Audio Wireless Transmission Kit (although the range is isn't as far as advertised, according to reviewers and it uses the 802.11a band, so may interfere with WiFi?).

Does anyone have any experience with any of these devices?


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

When I returned home Friday nite, I tried the solution suggested above, to remove the distribution amp from the circuit and it fixed the problem completely. I had already purchased an 8-way splitter to replace the two 4-way splitters I had to split the signal to all the TV's in the house and I installed that as well. I now get more OTA channels than I did before and don't get the occasional pixelation on OTA feeds that I formerly did.

The amp was installed when the original single feed dish was installed and I had the original analog modulator and all analog TV's. The problem didn't start until the 3LNB dish, HD receivers, and first HDTV was installed. So apparently the HD receivers put out a stronger signal than the previous receivers or the HDTV's have a more sensitive receiver or both and the circuit was over-driven.

Thanks to everyone who had suggestions and offered help! I really appreciate it all. Since the 5445 puts out a wider frequency spectrum, it appears that I am getting HD at most of the HDTV's, although it probably isn't full 1080p or I guess 1080i, since the DirecTV receiver can only do 1080i.

Thanks again and if anyone has any experience with the three devices in my last post or any similar ones, please continue to post.


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## Yoda-DBSguy (Nov 4, 2006)

orchids said:


> When I returned home Friday nite, I tried the solution suggested above, to remove the distribution amp from the circuit and it fixed the problem completely. I had already purchased an 8-way splitter to replace the two 4-way splitters I had to split the signal to all the TV's in the house and I installed that as well. I now get more OTA channels than I did before and don't get the occasional pixelation on OTA feeds that I formerly did.
> 
> The amp was installed when the original single feed dish was installed and I had the original analog modulator and all analog TV's. The problem didn't start until the 3LNB dish, HD receivers, and first HDTV was installed. So apparently the HD receivers put out a stronger signal than the previous receivers or the HDTV's have a more sensitive receiver or both and the circuit was over-driven.
> 
> ...


It had nothing to do with the 3LNB dish or the new HD receiver upgrade you did. It did however have to do with the limitation of bandwith since your splitters and amps cut off at their 900Mhz limitation. This explains why you picked up new OTA stations and the problem with pixelation you were experiencing stopped as well.

The reason you didn't discover this until you switched to an HD TV is simple. Since the upgrade of your TV to an HD verison happened was in conjuction or after the analog shut off date oitself, the you simply didn't notice anything on the SD TV's as they weren't capable of anything obove the standard old analog spectrum frequencies. The old splitters and amps caused a conflict and blocked and might have enven backfed into the system causing issues with all your TV's.

At any rate, I'm glad changing the splittrs and removing the amp(s) did the trick for you.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I love happy endings


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

Yoda-DBSguy said:


> It had nothing to do with the 3LNB dish or the new HD receiver upgrade you did. It did however have to do with the limitation of bandwith since your splitters and amps cut off at their 900Mhz limitation. This explains why you picked up new OTA stations and the problem with pixelation you were experiencing stopped as well.
> 
> The reason you didn't discover this until you switched to an HD TV is simple. Since the upgrade of your TV to an HD verison happened was in conjuction or after the analog shut off date oitself, the you simply didn't notice anything on the SD TV's as they weren't capable of anything obove the standard old analog spectrum frequencies. The old splitters and amps caused a conflict and blocked and might have enven backfed into the system causing issues with all your TV's.
> 
> At any rate, I'm glad changing the splittrs and removing the amp(s) did the trick for you.


It wasnt the splitters. HD over the air broadcast broadcast in the same range of frequencies as VHF/UHF, most digital broadcasts are UHF. Splitters rated to 900Mhz were fine to use. Splitters rated up to 1Ghz are more about super high capacity CATV systems. It was the cascading amps in his system yielding in way to much signal to the TVs, as well as overdriving the combining amp with too much signal from mod and too much signal from the off air amp.


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

I did not replace the diplexer with a splitter. Is it possible I would see an improvement in the signal if it did? There is only one diplexer in the circuit.


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## bigglebowski (Jul 27, 2010)

orchids said:


> I did not replace the diplexer with a splitter. Is it possible I would see an improvement in the signal if it did? There is only one diplexer in the circuit.


That diplexer in this case might not be much different than what a splitter would be. A 2 way splitter will drop the signal of your 2 sources about 3 dB [but you have that compensated for by the amps]. The diplexer probably has about the same loss, hard to tell without measuring it. Since your problem has been resolved why mess with it. My guess would be you replace it and see no change at all. Or you would have few dB increase in signal which would not make the picture any better. If you had the splitter I would change it, if not dont worry about it.

The real improvement would be getting an actual HD signal to the TVs. Your mod is sending SD. You mentioned sending an HD signal to the TVs via wireless, even with good equipment this can be problematic. Even if it works good now its something that could be susceptible to interference later. Do you have the ability to pull cat5 wiring to the TVs from your closet? If so there are some very reliable and inexpensive HDMI over cat5 solutions out there. These devices typically take 2 cat5 pulls but there are single cat5 ones now too. Then you can keep sending out the signal to the old tvs and send HD signal to the flat panels.


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## Yoda-DBSguy (Nov 4, 2006)

orchids said:


> I did not replace the diplexer with a splitter. Is it possible I would see an improvement in the signal if it did? There is only one diplexer in the circuit.


Once again; YES!

You don't have a sistuation that calls for the use of a diplexer. You need a 2 way combiner. Also make sure it is rated to 1Ghz as I mentioned before.

And to the poster above; a 2 way splitter has a signal loss of 3.5dB. Also a diplexer doesn't go upto 1Ghz on the the input or output for on air signals. A Diplexer differs and most commonly has the following stats:

Frequency Range Satellite IF: 950 - 2400 MHz
Off Air: 5 - 860 MHz 
Insertion Loss Satellite Ports: 1.8 dB
Off Air Ports: 1.5 dB 
Isolation Loss Off Air to Satellite: 24 dB 
Return Loss 9 dB


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## orchids (Dec 19, 2011)

I have 4 coax drops on the first floor of the house. I can probably run CAT5 to those, but the ones on the second floor would be about impossible.

Right now I have one HDTV in the rec-room, directly above the media closet that I might try the wireless HDMI route with. The distance would be short and only a single floor to go through, so the signal might be okay.


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