# L213 bug: S-Video input vanishing



## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

I have my 921 hooked up in the following way:
DVI port has DVI-RGB adapter (Apple) connected, then RGB goes into analog projector.
S-Video going into Faroudja NRS scaler.

So I watch the HD channels through RGB, and the SD channels through the NRS. Since I am using only the analog portion of the DVI signal, it doesn't turn off the S-Video port.

At least, this is the way it has worked for the past year through 3 921's that have been replaced for a variety of reasons.

With L213, after not rebooting for a day or two the S-Video input loses its signal. A smart card reboot restores it.

I haven't seen this reported before. It happens consistently after a day or two. I have also tried powercord reboots, which also fix it temporarily.

This is a very significant bug since the picture is far, far better through the NRS than the terrible scaler included in the 921 (which is something I don't consider a rip-off; I believe that it isn't unreasonable to have the consumer provide a higher quality scaler if they need it). However, in order to use the scaler I need the ability to switch inputs to see the HD channels, and the current loss of the S-input is therefore a big deal.

L213HEED-N
Boot 150B
Flash F054


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Sounds to me like you're trying to use RGB and S-Video at the same time. This generally doesn't work.

Please remember, there is only 1 scaler in the 921. It cannot be outputting HD (1080/720) and SD (480) at the same time.

The only way you might have been doing this is by putting the 921 into "safe" mode. Here, you get 480p out the HD ports, and 480i out the SD (480p is definately not HD).

You can get back to safe mode by holding down the HD/SD button till it switches (no specifics - I never use it). There have been some bug reports of safe mode having jitter problems.


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## ssj2 (Dec 1, 2004)

Alipka, I use my 921 in a similar way. I use the DVI port to send a RGBHV signal to my CRT projector, and use the S-video output to a different digital projector. Using both at the same time has always worked fine.


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

Yes, I have done this for over a year without problems, so Mr. Levin is not correct. I do not use it in safe mode.

In fact, it still works. The bug in L213 is that it stops working after a day or so.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Wow, this is really news to me....

So you're getting HD (1080i) and SD (480i) out of the box at the same time?

What resolution have you selected on the TV configuration screen (720p, 1080i)?
And I assume that's what you're getting from the RGB?



> The bug in L213 is that it stops working after a day or so


I'm not sure if Eldon would consider this a bug. Perhaps Mark could chime in.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I had no idea this was possible via the analog DVI...it's certainly not a documented feature.


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

If you don't use the digital portion, it is essentially the same as the component output. It is well established that the component and S-Video outputs can both be active at the same time.
The advantage of RGB is that it is easier to have a long run of RGB cable, thus extending the 921 into a different room, as I do.
In any case, the fact that the S-Video output goes away after a while is clearly a bug, and I would appreciate having it looked into.


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

Also, here is the thread from 16 MONTHS ago that discussed this:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22159

Mark, you participated in this thread, so there was a time when you remembered it. I guess the 921 has taken so long to get working that senility has begun to set in


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

alipka said:


> If you don't use the digital portion, it is essentially the same as the component output. It is well established that the component and S-Video outputs can both be active at the same time.


I don't agree with that statement. Composite and S-Video, sure. Those are both SD. But SD and HD simultaneously (safe mode is 480p - I wouldn't call that HD)? I never herd of that.

In the thread you referenced, I believe Mark is talking about RGB and Component. In that case, you're still not getting two different resolutions from the 921 at the same time.

I'd consider that a very different scenario then what you're talking about.


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

David, I don't know what you are arguing about. Not only myself, but other users as well have been doing this for over a year without putting the unit in any kind of special mode. For you to say that it can't be done is ridiculous, since it has been consistently working from the very beginning.

SD and HD simultaneously - 1080i and 480i - have worked, and continue to work. The only thing new is that the S-Video output stops working after a couple of days on my unit, which never happened before, just like the aspect ratios get frozen, or other quirks.

Component is capable of 1080i; you don't have to use DVI to get 1080i. The manual clearly states that DVI-D turns off S-Video, thus implying that component doesn't. As long as you stick with DVI-I, you also don't turn off S-Video.

Why don't you just try it on your machine. Then you can stop saying that it can't be done.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I use the DVI to RGBHV adapter cable too. I also have a Y/C cable connected to a small LCD monitor on my rack. However, I, soon may be switching back to straight DVI as without VOOM connected, I have an open DVI connection again.

When I set the 921 to HD output, i.e. 1080i or 720p the front panel blue light is on, my Y/C monitor goes black. When I set the 921 output to 480i or 480p, both the outputs work but the lite on the front is yellow. I have always assumed that when the 921 was intended to output in HD modes that the Y/C would be dead. When I had the RGBHV set to output in SD mode, the Y/C would be allowed as well. My system still works that way and L213 has not affected it. FYI- I use the small LCD screen to set menus etc. on my receivers so when I want to listen to music from the satellite music channels I can see what I'm tuning to without having to turn on the big screen projector. But when I do this, since I normally use the 921 in HDTV mode for Home theater, I have to switch to SD to see the small monitor. I just push the SD/HD switch when needing to view the LCD screen. And, just to clarify, at no time except during reboots for a brief period do I see both screens at the same time.

In summary, I agree with David Levin. I'm not sure David is writing from first hand experience with this wiring scenario but I am. It works as he says and it Works as is stated in the 921 manual. My only guess is that some of you getting simultaneous output from RGBHV and Y/C are indeed set to a 480, not 1080 or 720 in the menus. It's the only way I can achieve what you all are observing. BUT, If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected and then you can explain how I can get simultaneous output too as I can use that. 


Additionally, I just remembered a conversation I had with an engineer from Eldon on this. The reason why both output briefly during a reboot, is because at that time the 921 is ONLY in SD mode. When the 921 is moved to HD mode, there is no downconversion circuitry available to generate an output in SD at the same time as HD.


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

OK, I see the problem with this discussion.

It isn't that I get 1080i and 480i at the same time - it's just that I can have it wired this way without the 480i output being disabled. In other words, just having the cable plugged into the DVI port would turn off the S-Video output even if I switched to it unless I had the DVI-RGB adapter plugged in. Connecting a cable to the DVI output disables the S-Video output if the digital feed is used. Putting the DVI-RGB adapter on allows you to select the 480i resolution and actually get a picture.

I can't set the Display Options for 1080i and 480i simultaneously, obviously. If I have a DVI-RGB adapter plugged in, I can select 480i and the S-Video output will work. If I switch to 1080i, the RGB will work.

The problem with L213 is that the 480i will stop working and I will have no picture at all when 480i is selected, after a couple of days.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

OK, that makes a lot more sense.

Interesting, I have DVI and S-Video connected but don't have any problem getting an S-Video picture when I select SD mode.

Not sure if I've tried leaving the projector on with DVI source selected when using S-Video. Perhps my 4:1 Gefen DVI switcher is a factor.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

alipka said:


> Also, here is the thread from 16 MONTHS ago that discussed this:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22159
> 
> Mark, you participated in this thread, so there was a time when you remembered it. I guess the 921 has taken so long to get working that senility has begun to set in


what do you know...I guess I've been beaten down so much by this receiver that I've lost my mind...


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

So now that we have this straightened out, can we please get this bug fixed????


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

alipka said:


> Also, here is the thread from 16 MONTHS ago that discussed this:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22159
> 
> Mark, you participated in this thread, so there was a time when you remembered it. I guess the 921 has taken so long to get working that senility has begun to set in


Ok, I just read this thread.

WHAT does using RGB and component at the same time have to do with using S-VIDEO & RGB at same time?

I would like to do what you say you are doing but the ONLY way I've ever got both at the same time is in safe mode.

PLEASE explain exactly HOW you do this

Thanks.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

The word "use/using" is confusing people here.

Apparently alipka is not watching HD and SD simultaneously. His problem was that the s-video wouldn't activate with the DVI connected. So, instead he blew off DVI and used RBG instead (component would probably work as well). Apparently, this is no longer working.

I have not seen the problem, but do think I remember hearing about it. There's really no reason simply having a DVI (or component, or RGB) connection should stop the SD ports from working (with 480i selected).

The issue probably has something to do with the HDCP on the DVI port (not yet used, but perhaps designed into the hardware).

I agree that this should be looked at (although it's priority is going to depend on how many people are affected).


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

David- I really don't think this is a bug. I have used the outputs with both a DVI and DVI-RGBHV adapter connected and it works, depending on what you have selected.

The 921 has specific limitations on what it can/can't do hardware-wise. It CAN output HD from HD channel(obviously) and it can downconvert the HD channel to SD output on the analog outputs CVBS and Y/C. BUT- It upconverts SD to the high outputs both analog and digital (YPrPb, RGBHV and DVI). The limitation in the hardware is that it can't do both HDTV output as well as downconvert that channel to SD simultaneously. But it can do it depending on what you have selected in the setup menu individually. Plugging in a cable doesn't seem to disable any of that function here except with the DVI cable. In some cases, depending on the wiring of the cable itself, your DVI jack on the back of the 921 may not be able to pass all the signals present. I have two cables I use depending on whether I want DVI-D or DVI-I for RGBHV. The issue of HDCP has nothing to do with this. HDCP is an encryption that is enabled on DVI only and requires the use of an HDCP compliant monitor. HDCP is designed to pervent hackers from extracting the content to uncompressed HDTV for manipulation. Currently, the only HDCP devices are digital display devices and source devices. HDCP was designed to keep computers from being able to store the HDCP HDTV signal.

I'm guessing that the most likely scenario that prevents some users from getting output on their 921's Y/C is a hardware malfunction. I have experienced many times where the Y/C connector and more commonly the cable went bad on various devices. This would explain why the Y/C connection would fail after a couple of days. intermittant connections work that way, not software bugs. But, a software bug??? I don't think so.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

The only reason I mention HDCP, is that there is a requirement that protected content HD NOT be available at the analog ports. This might be why DVI kills the component outputs (though it really only needs to do this if the protection flag is active).

I was just afraid that they might also be accidently killing the SD ports (but, like I said, I haven't seen the problem).

Perhaps your right, and these other people are experiencing hardware failures. But, they say the problem started with a software rev. Maybe it has something to do with thier monitors.

Oh well, when we all get upgraded to mpeg 4 942s I guarantee there will not be any problems with the S-Video port :nono2: .


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## alipka (Dec 11, 2003)

No, Don, it's a bug, because it was working fine for a year on 3 different machines and then it stopped working with L213. No new monitors (in fact, the RGB is connected to a projector, as it has been for this entire time).

Again, it still works - but then S-Video shuts down after a day or two; smart card reboot - it's fine again.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I just noticed the title of this thread:

_"L213 bug: S-Video input vanishing "_

My apologies, I was wrong. I thought we were talking about S Video OUTPUT.

Suppose this falls into the same category of Dishwire working until April 2004.


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