# Would you recommend E for a new sub?



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Would you recommend E today for a new sub who wants DVR?


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## Fat Tony (Oct 1, 2003)

I am currently doing demo's on my system at home to show people what they can get. Just some friends and family. Most were impressed as at one point a storm passed through and no interruption. I pretty much told them that it would have to rain pretty hard to stop working. Each left with their club dish gift card in hand.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

A year ago I would have never hesitated, today after switching to Directv I do have trouble. Seeing I make my living selling Satellites it has become a real problem. DISH really gets a solid recommendation only in Pegasus territory because I can't sell Directv there.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Tell us what you would do, bob.


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

I would have in the past, when there was no DVR fee. Now, I can't honestly tell someone that a dish PVR is the way to go over a directivo.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I cant recommend them. First off anyone who asks I tell them to get a DVR. The E fee per box kills that. Once exposed folks are going to want more than one DVR, and besides the D tivos have way fewer bugs, are all dual tuner input too. Beyond the name based recordings. I tossed the club dish stuff in the trash when it arrived.

Es chanel offerings, tech support and CSRs are all much better than a few years ago.

Back then that stuff was horrible while management was truly trying to lead the way on DBS.

Personally I think Charlie has turned over management to the beancounters, and the comnpany is adrift.

Now anagement has changed and E has become a poor follower\
This truly upsets me, I used to think the company was great.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I can recommend them easily. For cutting edge tech geeks like ourselves, E* might be losing a little luster.

But for everyday TV viewing by most people that I know, E* had a great service. Most people that I'd be recommending E* don't have a clue about SuperDish, 921s, 811, or even DVRs. They just want something better than Cable and thats what E* has.


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## Fat Tony (Oct 1, 2003)

Bob,

I feel bad that you have ill feelings toward E*. I think they are on the verge of something big and are really going to start turning heads with high and enhanced definition programming as well as receivers that are going to make people stop and look. I don't favor one over the other, E* vs. D*, but I am really satisfied with what I've got. On the CSR side, I must compliment them on an almost 180 from the time I joined 3 years ago. Much nicer people now.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Would you recommend E today for a new sub who wants DVR?


I'm sorry to say that I can no longer recommend DISH's DVRs over DirecTV's. The DVOD fee and the deceptive advertising is what done it for me. I would recommend the 510 over a DirecTV DVR if there wasn't a fee on the 510 and if the person only wanted basic recording features. If you are going to pay a monthly fee for DVR service you might as well get the best features and you only get those with a DirecTV DVR.

To me, DISH's advertising is reaching a new low (they compare a stand alone TiVo with a $13.95 monthly DVR fee with a 510 with a $4.95 monthly fee). As anyone that reads this forum knows, I also have a big problem with their term DISH VOD. There is no information in DISH's ads that tells the customer that he really isn't getting VOD (like cable companies offer). How can DISH expect anyone to recommend doing business with a company whose ads are so dishonest?

A sad thing about this thread is that DISH will likely never see it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bill, 

Have you played around with Dish's version of VOD? Do you know exactly how it works? As for the DVR fees , I am not too happy about it either.


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## Mark Holtz (Mar 23, 2002)

At this present time, no. The deal killer is the DVR fee. Both systems, if you don't take the everything pack, charge a $5 monthly fee for the DVRs now. This is for the 510 as well as the upcoming 522 and 921 DVRs. (No fee exists for the 501 or 508). The differences in the software can be compared in miles.

Right now, DirecTV is running a special promotion on their DVR product that includes existing customers. I just checked Expert Satellite's page, and they have a promotion which includes a DVR+additional rooms for $49 for a single LNB to $69 for a triple-LNB. Meanwhile, Dish's dual-tuner DVR costs over $500.

Unless there is some specialized programming not available on DirecTV, such as the superstations, I can't honestly recommend Dish at the moment.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Fat Tony said:


> Bob,
> 
> I feel bad that you have ill feelings toward E*. I think they are on the verge of something big and are really going to start turning heads with high and enhanced definition programming as well as receivers that are going to make people stop and look. I don't favor one over the other, E* vs. D*, but I am really satisfied with what I've got. On the CSR side, I must compliment them on an almost 180 from the time I joined 3 years ago. Much nicer people now.


I agree that they are better now than 3 years ago. But the equipment is buggy. I have no experience w/ d-tv so I can't comment whether their equipment is buggy too. I preferred the channel selection offered by Echostar. The DVOD is silly - as I understand it, it is NOT DVOD, at least not what one can get from cable. I wouldn't be surprised to see a charge of false advertising at some point. All they are doing is trying to find a politically expedient way of charging for use of the hard drive. That will flop in the long term.

So what would I do? I would recommend they consider E - at least within the constraints above. Some cable will outperform them for the money. That wouldn't happen a few years ago. But I know for a fact that Brighthouse/TimeWarner locally is a very close match to E pricewise & channel selection (including TRUE DVOD and DVR - and that's before you factor in the purchase price of equipment.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I could of gone to team summit. I was too busy to make the trip. But if I had gone I would of personally seen to it that concerns here were aired.

Like I said beancounter managers VOD isnt VOD, just a excuse for a fee, bill R is rght about that.

Comparing stand alone tivo fees with Es, these are lying. I cant recomennd anyone do business with a liar.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Right now my recommendation is determined by the promotion being offered. I tend to like DirecTV's 3 X Free, 3 months of HBO and three basic receivers free and a TiVo for $99.00. One DVR fee per account on DirecTV and a very reliable product. DISH is trying to catch up but just dosen't seem to have a handle on the marketplace. This promotion expires Oct.31st, oops we aren't quite ready for the replacement lets extend this till Nov.14th.(DHP) FREE DISH actually expired in July and has been extended in August and Sept. then a new promotion officially started in Oct. and was just modified for the third time today. DISH is really sucking wind trying to catch up and confusing dealers with changing offers.


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> I can recommend them easily. For cutting edge tech geeks like ourselves, E* might be losing a little luster.
> 
> But for everyday TV viewing by most people that I know, E* had a great service. Most people that I'd be recommending E* don't have a clue about SuperDish, 921s, 811, or even DVRs. They just want something better than Cable and thats what E* has.


I totally agree. Most people don't care that a receiver wasn't released by the promised date or any of that crap. They just care about getting the channels they want at a reasonable price with good customer service, and Dish fits the bill.

Dennis


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Unless the person is a sports junkie and absolutley MUST have out of market baseball and/or football (or is in NYC and wants the Yankees games) I would recommend E*.

As a highend AEP subscriber, I pay no PVR fees, I will getting HD content once the 921 ships AND I will be able to record OTA broadcasts from Philly which I can receive with an antenna, but the Feds tell me I am unable to get as some survey 40 years ago determined my zip code belonged in the NYC DMA only. I like the Superstations (I watch a lot more WB then I do sports) AND I have waivers for NBC and FOX in two distant cities which increases my flexibility. My prices have only gone up about $4 in four years (and my bill is $164 a month) so it is MUCH cheaper than cable, and D* is starting to get into capacity trouble. The Superdish will allow many more HD channels. The Hard Drives on the E* PVRs tend to be larger and although they are buggy, I have never lost more than a few minutes of a program to a reboot in the past year on either my 721 or my 2 Dishplayers. So I've been happy with E* and WOULD recommend it to others. As to E* as a company, they need to make a profit to stay in business. Right now, D* isn't making a profit and is on the verge of being sold to a guy who never met a price increase he didn't like on his programming and I don't expect things to change when he gets a hold of distribution as well. Assuming the Justice Dept and FCC let it go through. And if they DON'T look for things to tank as long range planning gets pushed back further to address the capacity dilemma.


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## cicijay (Jan 6, 2003)

For a $5/month credit on my bill I can easily recommend E*. :hurah:

After my Mother evaluated staying with cable at the jacked up Fees, D* or E* with the Club Dish, it was no comparison for her. She got the 510 deal with E*. I have been with E* for almost 6 years and my satisfaction has steadily risen. Not to say there havn't been peaks and valleys in that satisfaction.

Valley:
Waiting for the 921
3rd 501 and it sounds like an airplane but at least it works
DVR Fee's
Delay's in HDTV Package
Very small HDTV package
Recent Delays in the 921 and SuperDish

Peaks:
Top 150 (Love the Discovery/Kid Channels added)
HDTV package
$199 501 deal
$149 6000u with 8VSB (Not waiting for the 921 anymore)


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Bill,
> 
> Have you played around with Dish's version of VOD? Do you know exactly how it works? As for the DVR fees , I am not too happy about it either.


Wee,

My point was that there is no VOD so there is nothing new to "play around with". DVOD provides the same features on a model 510 for a monthly fee that you get on a model 501, 508, or 721 with NO fee. Right now, there are NO additional features for that fee. The name, DVOD, is pure marketing hype to make the customer think that he is getting something he is not.

Getting back to Bob's question; I didn't fully answer it before. I still do recommend DISH's service to people that don't want a DVR. I think that DISH's programming packages are a little better than DirecTV's (except for our locals, DISH still doesn't carry our local UPN station).


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## Fat Tony (Oct 1, 2003)

Bill R said:


> Wee,
> 
> My point was that there is no VOD so there is nothing new to "play around with". DVOD provides the same features on a model 510 for a monthly fee that you get on a model 501, 508, or 721 with NO fee. Right now, there are NO additional features for that fee. The name, DVOD, is pure marketing hype to make the customer think that he is getting something he is not.
> 
> Getting back to Bob's question; I didn't fully answer it before. I still do recommend DISH's service to people that don't want a DVR. I think that DISH's programming packages are a little better than DirecTV's (except for our locals, DISH still doesn't carry our local UPN station).


Consider this a rumor, but I have talked to some folks at dish who have never steered me wrong and I **heard** about plans to use the stealth event record feature (SERF) on the 510's for movies to be put on the hard drive. Possibly ppv movies that cycled off the month before. But again, this is a rumor, but if it's true, I won't mind the $5 as my 510 is coming next week.


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## dlsnyder (Apr 24, 2002)

I would suspect if they did that they would still charge you for watching the movie on top of the VOD fee. It wouldn't surprise me to find that E* knows what you record, what you watch, and when with one of those DVRs. Tivo is open about tracking that information, making it a value-added service by making suggestions about what other programs you might enjoy. Who knows what E* does with it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bill R said:


> Wee,
> 
> My point was that there is no VOD so there is nothing new to "play around with". DVOD provides the same features on a model 510 for a monthly fee that you get on a model 501, 508, or 721 with NO fee. Right now, there are NO additional features for that fee. The name, DVOD, is pure marketing hype to make the customer think that he is getting something he is not.


Bill,

My understanding is that the DVOD feature took part of the hard drive up and downloaded Movies and other content for viewing when you want. The point I tried to make on a earlier thread was that if the user only see the content as being available after download then from their perspective it is VOD. Just another way of implemented it. If they have to select something wait for it to download and then watch it, that is not VOD by anyone's imagination.

If the VOD DVRs work just like the 508 or 721 today then you are absolutely right that they are charging a VOD fee without VOD. Also, I personally would want to give up the VOD space and use it for my own.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

I can't fully recommended Dish and won't fully recommend them any more unless in certain situations. Plain and simple, I do not like Dish Network and I will not recommend a product or service that I don't like to anyone else unless they have some special needs/wants. Not to say I don't tell them to do research and I try to be as fair as possible, and don’t put a D* slant on things I just tell them how I fell about Dish, and point out the highlights of both services. At family gatherings and so forth it amazes me how much the topic of satellite tv comes up. So far I've turned one person away from Dish and to DirecTV on the day before the Dish guy was supposed to come and one that had E* for a year, then went back to cable and now he's looking into Dish again but I told him about DirecTV and told him to play around with a DTiVo then come over to my house and play with the 508 and see which one he likes better and what programming suits him best. The DVR is the big selling point and the feature I focus on. Now one person I now does a lot of cross country driving in their RV and I recommended they get Dish for the wider selections in Distant Nets.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Bill,
> 
> My understanding is that the DVOD feature took part of the hard drive up and downloaded Movies and other content for viewing when you want. The point I tried to make on a earlier thread was that if the user only see the content as being available after download then from their perspective it is VOD. Just another way of implemented it. If they have to select something wait for it to download and then watch it, that is not VOD by anyone's imagination.
> 
> If the VOD DVRs work just like the 508 or 721 today then you are absolutely right that they are charging a VOD fee without VOD. Also, I personally would want to give up the VOD space and use it for my own.


Right now the 510s work exactly just like the 501s and 508s. DISH has not made any official statement that the DVOD service will be anymore than it is now. There has been a lot of "guessing" on the internet that one day DISH will do something like you are talking about but that sure hasn't happened yet. And it sure isn't VOD either. My cable company plans on having over 500 hours of different VOD programs a month (right now they have about half of that). Some are PPV movies and the rest are part of premium movie channel packages (right now they are free as part of your movie package but word is that they will charge extra for VOD). At any given time there will be as many as 50 events to choose from (right now it is about two dozen events) and watch ON DEMAND.

Just as you were confused as to what DISH is offering in its DVOD service so are a lot of dealers and their potential customers. DISH needs to make it clear in their advertising what customers are going to get for the DVOD fee.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Then yes that would be in class of false advertising. However, if they do what I mentioned earlier then that would classify as VOD even if it is not 500 hours of content a month.

Well before you hang them lets wait and see what it is.. And I am not a big fan paying a VOD fee on top of paying for VOD content. UGH!!!


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Wee,

Why would you consider that to be VOD? VOD is exactly what it says, ON DEMAND. When you have to record something FIRST (even if it done for you during the night), it is not ON DEMAND.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

From the user's perspective it is. 

Cable: 
My understanding of VOD is that the user has a chose of movies to select from. He picks a movie and can watch it. His choice is based on a number of movies that a stored on a Server. 

Dish (Based on my earlier description): 
The user is given a selection of content and he can choose to watch the content at any time he chooses. He is only given the choice after the content has been downloaded.. 

The above two use cases are VOD. Once is server based and one is client based. Both provide a user a set of choices. The server one could have more choices because of the large capacity that one could have on the server, but would chew up a hell of a lot of bandwidth. 

The second case would be more bandwidth efficient, but would either require huge hard drives for each client or they would have to offer less services. 

If Dish requires the user to select content and then it will become available later to watch anytime, then this would be stretching the concept of VOD. But inreality it could be argued even in this scenario that it is VOD. Once you have the video you can watch it at anytime. However, this would be a weak argument in my opinoin. 

The market they are going after is Netflix and Blockbuster here. 

I am upset about the fee and what they are trying to pass it off as. I also feel a number of people are trying to argue that this isnt VOD so they should not charge the fee. I see these as two seperate arguments. 

1) They should not charge a fee for VOD because they are generating revenue for this service. If it can't stand on a pure revenue modal they should not provide it. If they are not charging per view and only as fee, they should allow this to be disabled and not charge the fee. 

2) As a DVR Fee, well I would like to see a lot more features added to justify this fee or drop the price of the units considerable. Seems that they have their hand in both pockets at the same time. 

Ok. Hope that clears things up. 


For reference a definition from Hyper Dictionary 
(VoD) A planned system using video compression to supply programs to viewers when requested, via ISDN or cable.

Based on this definition, If they download and then offer it as a choice then it could be considered VOD. That is my opinion. I hope I clarified my position. 

Ofcourse until I actually see it work the above is purely speculation based on what I have read here.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

The funny thing about the VOD fee, that that you pay $5 a month to have your DVR record movies that you do not select, and then you will likely have to pay PPV fee to view them. 

Has anyone heard that your $5 VOD fee covers movie viewings? I think that the VOD fee is just for your elective timers, and that the 'stealth' timers are still subject to PPV fees upon viewing.


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## Dave (Jan 29, 2003)

There is a catch to alll of this. Dish is giving away to current customers on Monday it starts the 27th FREE DVR 510's. Yes you need to extend for 2 years on the contract, but it is FREE. The other part is what Murdoch will do with the TIVO. Tivo is now commiting its self more and more now to just writing software. And Murdoch is already deep in bed with his own DVR's not TIVO. I would suspect Murdoch will make some changes in his systems when he takes over DTV.


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## beegfoot (Jan 15, 2003)

I'm a dealer for both companies, and since Dish has locals and DirecTV doesn't, that usually decides which system I sell. I have a 501 showroom unit that I use to demonstrate the joys of DVR whether the customer is buying E* or D*. I personally have 2 TiVo units.

My biggest concern is the huge steps forward dish is taking seems to me to be steps backwards. Buggy problems with software, switches and big antennas only cause churn which kills me as a dealer. I had a customer call last evening with 510 problems, and his second sentence included a threat to cancel dish service and go with DirecTV.

My biz has florished with Dish. I make better money selling dish. But the last few months of bad CCS9601's , constantly on the phone walking customers through reboots and switch checks and now new receivers, software, switches and a Super Dish have me way skittish.

I sure wish CE would fire a bunch of his management flakes and go back to his winning ways of a couple years ago.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

beegfoot said:


> I sure wish CE would fire a bunch of his management flakes and go back to his winning ways of a couple years ago.


MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!

What Charlie needs is a real collapse to get his attention. Bug ridden new boxes get overwhelmingly rejected by dealers and subs. Sub numbers tumble caused by churn.

Charlie might then ask WHATS WRONG? And fire those beancounter managers that are ruining the company!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

BTW I think it would of been better to delay the superdish rollout till a higher powered satellite would be in place so the dish size wouldnt be so unacceptable.

3 feet is just too big.


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