# Cost of new OTA Solution for HR2X Discussion



## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

So a solution for people wanting OTA tuners for their HR21s is on the front burner at DirecTV.

What do you think they'll charge and how will it play out in monthly fees if any?

I'm going to guess the hardware will be leased at an upfront cost between $50 - $99 and then there will be an ongoing monthly fee of $2.99.

I'm also going to guess they'll not charge the people already receiving OTA signals at least for a period of time. 

I have NO inside information on this matter...all just a guess. What do y'all think?

Person coming closest wins...ummm...nothing.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

I think your probably close on the upfront cost, but I would be surprised if there was an ongoing monthly fee. I suppose there is a small incremental cost for guide data, but the precedent is already there with the HR20 for not charging an "OTA fee".

You really like to stir the pot, don't you.:lol: :lol:


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

I'm guessing that they have no idea what pricing model they will use.

What should they do? They should give them away to anyone who thinks they need one.

When can they stop giving them away? When they publicly own up to the fact that the '21 series receivers don't have OTA tuners and put a sizeable sticker on every box that says as much.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Basically in a relatively short period of time the HR20's will no longer be available... all that will be there is the HR21's.

And the OTA solution should (and most likely will be) available then.

I would be SHOCKED if they don't charge a fee for the ATSC solution. And $50 - $100 would be about in the price range I would expect.

(Given that they are going to be lowering the price of the HR2* series in January... at least that is what is expected).

I would be even MORE stunned if they charge any type of monthly fee for it.
My guess the royalties for the ATSC technology would be built into the cost of the unit (covering a few years worth of royalties).


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm sure it's among the questions the DIRECTV contingent will be asked next week at CES... at least I'm planning on asking.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Basically in a relatively short period of time the HR20's will no longer be available... all that will be there is the HR21's.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Basically in a relatively short period of time the HR20's will no longer be available... all that will be there is the HR21's.
> 
> And the OTA solution should (and most likely will be) available then.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you don't think this would be a lease item ? Seems like they would want to get those back as subs come and go. I would think they would provide it with a smaller initial fee and then a monthly 'rental' fee so they would get it back later.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

$100 or so would seem pretty reasonable. I have a HDHomeRun dual networked (ethernet) tuner and it was $169. I don't know if there are any other dual tuners out there.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I would be even MORE stunned if they charge any type of monthly fee for it.
> My guess the royalties for the ATSC technology would be built into the cost of the unit (covering a few years worth of royalties).


Earl,

I think the license free for the ATSC tuners is a one-time $5 free. I might be a bit high on the $2.99 a month. If they grandfather in the existing folks they could probably get away with .99 - 1.99/month for the guide data. It's also something they can "comp" to subscribers for periods of time.

We'll see...and maybe you know already.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I suspect that there will be an upfront charge .. bottom line is that DIRECTV doesn't want or need everyone to have one by default .. if the device were free, then folks would get one just because they could and would defeat the purpose of removing them from the receiver to begin with. There will be at least some nominal fee .. My guess would be $99, but it could be less.

As for monthly fees .. no way. While everyone won't use it, this is still a feature that will allow some people to get DIRECTV service that may not otherwise get it. It's not exactly a loss-leader but it does play a similar role.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> $100 or so would seem pretty reasonable. I have a HDHomeRun dual networked (ethernet) tuner and it was $169. I don't know if there are any other dual tuners out there.


Without knowing what the solution is - the HDHomeRun is fairly sophisticated device - power supply, ethernet stack, 2 tuners w/ atsc and qam, and probably some sort of controller chip. The solution is presumably a passive device w/o bells and whistles, powered by usb and no qam. If the homerun is $169 @retail - then the solution has to be under $100.


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## wagman (Jul 11, 2007)

I think it would be reasonable for them to accept one of the the vouchers everyone will get from the Government for a converter box as it is essentially the same thing. 



I know it is a pipe dream, but a solution that went into place between the dish and the multiswitch would be great as it could allow one solution to every receiver, instead of needing one at every box.

wagman


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## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

wagman said:


> I think it would be reasonable for them to accept one of the the vouchers everyone will get from the Government for a converter box as it is essentially the same thing.
> 
> I know it is a pipe dream, but a solution that went into place between the dish and the multiswitch would be great as it could allow one solution to every receiver, instead of needing one at every box.
> 
> wagman


the rules for the government voucher program are already set, and this device would not qualify for the vouchers. The voucher program requires that any device under the program pass government testing. To pass the testing, the device must be specifically designed to take an antenna input and only have analog (non digital) outputs. Devices that have any digital output are specifically disallowed under the program. The specs for the program specifically mention USB, Firewire, HDMI and component video as outputs that would disqualify a device, but they go further than that and ban anything with a digital output.

So far, it's only a few boxes from LG and a few smaller manufacturers which qualify for the voucher program.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect that there will be an upfront charge .. bottom line is that DIRECTV doesn't want or need everyone to have one by default .. if the device were free, then folks would get one just because they could and would defeat the purpose of removing them from the receiver to begin with.


I wonder if they might be free to those in DMA's without HD LIL which now is less than 30% of the country?


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## tonyquan (Jan 8, 2004)

Ken S said:


> Earl,
> 
> I think the license free for the ATSC tuners is a one-time $5 free. I might be a bit high on the $2.99 a month. If they grandfather in the existing folks they could probably get away with .99 - 1.99/month for the guide data. It's also something they can "comp" to subscribers for periods of time.
> 
> We'll see...and maybe you know already.


The MPEG LA is one of the groups that many of the ATSC manufacturers get the licenses from, so that they don't need to negotiate the licenses one by one. The MPEG LA charges $5 per device as Ken said, and the license expires at the end of 2016, but can be renewed for 5 year terms after that:

http://www.mpegla.com/atsc/atsc-faq.cfm

The MPEG LA license doesn't include all of the licenses for MPEG-2 which is required to display ATSC. That license is $4.00:

http://www.mpegla.com/m2/m2-agreement.cfm

So we're talking in the neighborhood of $9 just for the basic ATSC patents.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

tonyquan said:


> So we're talking in the neighborhood of $9 just for the basic ATSC patents.


Is that per tuner? Seems $18/device would be getting rather expensive. I wonder if DIRECTV could possibly negotiate better terms?


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

tonyquan said:


> The MPEG LA is one of the groups that many of the ATSC manufacturers get the licenses from, so that they don't need to negotiate the licenses one by one. The MPEG LA charges $5 per device as Ken said, and the license expires at the end of 2016, but can be renewed for 5 year terms after that:
> 
> http://www.mpegla.com/atsc/atsc-faq.cfm
> 
> ...


Tonyquan,
I think they're already paying the MPEG-2 fee whether the box has OTA tuners or not. They're using MPEG-2 for their satellite programming.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Is that per tuner? Seems $18/device would be getting rather expensive. I wonder if DIRECTV could possibly negotiate better terms?


Doug, I think the ATSC license would be per tuner ($5) each. The MPEG-2 fee is per device. I presume they're already paying that along with MPEG04 and other licensing fees with every box.


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## rotohead (Nov 29, 2007)

No hi-jack intended w/this question but does anyone know what 'size' will this addon be? I'm running out of room to put another device in a custom cabinet. That issue could decide whether it is part of my Directv package.


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

rotohead said:


> No hi-jack intended w/this question but does anyone know what 'size' will this addon be? I'm running out of room to put another device in a custom cabinet. That issue could decide whether it is part of my Directv package.


I think that those that do are not (yet) allowed to share. 

Hopefully, we will have some solid info in the next few months.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rotohead said:


> No hi-jack intended w/this question but does anyone know what 'size' will this addon be? I'm running out of room to put another device in a custom cabinet. That issue could decide whether it is part of my Directv package.


I'm not sure if anyone knows for certain yet .. Hopefully we'll know more in the not so distant future ..


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Since no one seems to be able to sta what the solution is, what the size of the device is, or when exactly it will be implemented, speculation as to price and monthly charge is indeed only speculation.

Perhaps those who know but can't speak yet are in a better position to discuss pricing. 

Bill


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

If you believe the statement quoted at the top of the OTA solution thread, it will almost certainly have to be a free-standing box to accommodate the two tuners and some method of communicating bidirectionally with the '21.

As for connections, it will either be USB or Ethernet. I'm betting on Ethernet as I have doubts about USB to sustain two MPEG2 HD feeds.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

rotohead said:


> No hi-jack intended w/this question but does anyone know what 'size' will this addon be? I'm running out of room to put another device in a custom cabinet. That issue could decide whether it is part of my Directv package.


I can answer this question. Yes, there are people who know the size of the unit. 

And sorry, I'm not allowed to release information, only hints. 

Happy New Year!
Tom


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## 1948GG (Aug 4, 2007)

Ken S said:


> What do you think they'll charge and how will it play out in monthly fees if any?


That is about as 'pure speculation' of a question I've heard in a while, simply because DirecTV can 'wobble' the price (either or both to the consumer OR their distributors), simply by doing things, all (or most) of which have been mentioned in the many replies to this question.

The better question, which won't be asked of course, is WHEN the device is to be 'available'. 'Soon'? With the track record of DirecTV fielding hardware (other than the big ticket items like satellites and launches, in which the FCC is looking over their shoulder), I'd say probably about as good as in the past.

Which means, that anything 'introduced' at CES THIS YEAR will be UNAVAILABLE to the general public by the CES NEXT YEAR. Let that be your guide.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

1948GG said:


> That is about as 'pure speculation' of a question I've heard in a while, simply because DirecTV can 'wobble' the price (either or both to the consumer OR their distributors), simply by doing things, all (or most) of which have been mentioned in the many replies to this question.
> 
> The better question, which won't be asked of course, is WHEN the device is to be 'available'. 'Soon'? With the track record of DirecTV fielding hardware (other than the big ticket items like satellites and launches, in which the FCC is looking over their shoulder), I'd say probably about as good as in the past.
> 
> Which means, that anything 'introduced' at CES THIS YEAR will be UNAVAILABLE to the general public by the CES NEXT YEAR. Let that be your guide.


I've not heard when it will be released to the public, but I suspect soon is about as good an answer that is available.

If it doesn't show up at CES, what would that mean to your schedule?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

The OTA solution will be available before CES 2009.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> The OTA solution will be available before CES 2009.


Thanks Tom. That definitely helps.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

rotohead said:


> No hi-jack intended w/this question but does anyone know what 'size' will this addon be? I'm running out of room to put another device in a custom cabinet. That issue could decide whether it is part of my Directv package.


It shouldn't be very large. The HDHomeRun is approx. 7 in. W x 1.5 in. H x 5 in. D. The DirecTV device wouldn't need to be as complex and might be smaller. It could probably be located out of the way where it wouldn't be visible.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

I've read the speculation here that there will be an upfront cost to get the OTAS (OTA Solution), and I think that's fair *as long as* the HR21 price comes down (as promised) and if the HR21 is the only HD DVR available from DIRECTV. Those that want the OTAS then pay for it while those that don't want or need the OTAS don't pay for it.

I'm curious about the $99 upfront price that was tossed around ... wouldn't that be half the cost of the presumed discounted price of $199 for the HR21? I know DIRECTV has to recoup any investment cost and they'll want to charge what the market bears, so I guess if they go with $99, then a new customer getting the HR21 and the OTAS will essentially be paying the old price ($298) for the HR20. Maybe not such a bad approach after all ...

The only thing I would hope is that DIRECTV waives the upfront cost of the OTAS to those who needed an OTAS but who paid full price for the HR21 ($299) before the OTAS was released.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> The OTA solution will be available before CES 2009.


Pretty strong words 

Can you tell us whether this "OTA solution" has final FCC approval?

If it doesn't you may have to eat your words.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Drew2K: Does it matter if the HR21 price comes down if it is the only game it town?

Contrary to Earl's protestations about ongoing manufacturing and availability of the HR20-100, I'm thinking that the HR21 is it going forward.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bobnielsen said:


> The HDHomeRun is approx. 7 in. W x 1.5 in. H x 5 in. D.


This device is high on my list of candidates; less the QAM capability of course.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

harsh said:


> This device is high on my list of candidates; less the QAM capability of course.


I wouldn't mind that, since I already have one


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

harsh said:


> This device is high on my list of candidates; less the QAM capability of course.


Hey, throw QAM in there while you are at it. Maybe a cablecard slot.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

harsh said:


> Pretty strong words
> 
> Can you tell us whether this "OTA solution" has final FCC approval?
> 
> If it doesn't you may have to eat your words.


Would it need FCC approval? The HR20 never had to get it...only the remote.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

1948GG said:


> That is about as 'pure speculation' of a question I've heard in a while, simply because DirecTV can 'wobble' the price (either or both to the consumer OR their distributors), simply by doing things, all (or most) of which have been mentioned in the many replies to this question.
> 
> The better question, which won't be asked of course, is WHEN the device is to be 'available'. 'Soon'? With the track record of DirecTV fielding hardware (other than the big ticket items like satellites and launches, in which the FCC is looking over their shoulder), I'd say probably about as good as in the past.
> 
> Which means, that anything 'introduced' at CES THIS YEAR will be UNAVAILABLE to the general public by the CES NEXT YEAR. Let that be your guide.


Yep, the whole thread is pure speculation. This is a discussion board and since I hadn't seen that issue really discussed I figured I'd toss it out there. Why? Just for some entertainment. Take a guess at what DirecTV is going to do.

I guess we could go back to discussing DLB or how to save $1.73 more on the upfront price of a DVR.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I hope it's not $99. If so I'll live without it despite not getting NBC in HD. I'd pay up to maybe $50 or so. But knowing me and wanting the coolest new gadget I'd probably break down and get it anyway.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I hope it's not $99. If so I'll live without it despite not getting NBC in HD. I'd pay up to maybe $50 or so. But knowing me and wanting the coolest new gadget I'd probably break down and get it anyway.


what if it were 3 easy payments of $33/month? :grin:


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> what if it were 3 easy payments of $33/month? :grin:


And, if you call now, you get free guide data for a year!

Operators are standing by!


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## digital223 (Dec 19, 2002)

I am not a D* sub.
I have been following the ota posts re D*'s missing [AWOL] ota connection on some of their receivers.
I also have read that they didn't announce the missing ota when offering their new receiver.
I was considering switching to D* a little more than a month ago, but couldn't find which receiver
I would get, from research or talking to a csr. Their web site was very vague....only showed a HD DVR, no model #.

So I visited this forum and became educated as to what was happening with D*'s HD receivers.
It seems like D* is only interested in adding the cost to something that was free.... a simple connection !
Further many poster's here seem to think nothing of the additional cost they may have to cough up, for something
that was included previously, and then mysteriously vanished.
With price increases each year and the possibility of the above taking place, subscription tv iwith D* is becoming
something only the rich will be able to afford.
Maybe I am wrong, but this looks like a poor business decision D* chose to make.

If I am not mistaken local networks are included in each package offered by D*. I could be wrong.
Locals are an option to all subs with E*. But I believe that any receiver you choose from them has an ota tuner on it.
True there is an additional charge for locals, but if one subs for locals then they are included in their PG.

That being said, is there any possibility that the FCC could enter into this ?
It wasn't that long ago the FCC made it mandatory for all TV mfr's to include an atsc tuner on most sized fp tv's.
All modern fp tv's that have atsc tuners, also have ota as well !
I wonder if anyone checked to see if that requirement is applicable to satellite and cable provider's stb's ?
Even many DVD recorders have atsc tuners included.
My 32" lcd tv is without an atsc tuner, and I want HDTV via ota, so I have decided not to sub with D*.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> The OTA solution will be available before CES 2009.


WAY WAY before CES 2009


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## donyoop (Apr 6, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> WAY WAY before CES 2009


Great to hear that the OTA product release schedule is much faster than the SWM release.

Don


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## vikingguy (Aug 1, 2005)

What is the policy going to be for those with the protection plan and HR20s when they die? IMO we should get them free to get us back to the same level of service.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

digital223 said:


> That being said, is there any possibility that the FCC could enter into this ?
> It wasn't that long ago the FCC made it mandatory for all TV mfr's to include an atsc tuner on most sized fp tv's.
> All modern fp tv's that have atsc tuners, also have ota as well !
> I wonder if anyone checked to see if that requirement is applicable to satellite and cable provider's stb's ?
> ...


No, this is not something that the FCC would mandate .. and as for getting the government involved .. I suspect that process will take longer than it will take for a solution to be available .. effectively negating the need for the government in the first place. Earl noted above that it would be available way way before CES 2009 (which is essentially one year from now).


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Tom Robertson said:
> 
> 
> > The OTA solution will be available before CES 2009.
> ...


Considering CES 2008 is just a week away, I'd hope so. 

I've been assuming that would be the introduction. But with all these hints, maybe now January 2 will be the announcement date.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

digital223 said:


> I am not a D* sub.
> I have been following the ota posts re D*'s missing [AWOL] ota connection on some of their receivers.
> I also have read that they didn't announce the missing ota when offering their new receiver.
> I was considering switching to D* a little more than a month ago, but couldn't find which receiver
> ...


Someone else that 'gets it'. D* is no longer about the best or the cheapest. Which is why I said earlier its no better or worse than an average cable company. Some of us remember when D* prided itself on giving it subscribers the most, best quality, AND holding the line on price. Now, its how can we squeeze another buck out of the poor unfortunates that got roped into a 2 year commitment.

The only part of that whole post I quoted above that I disagree with is what I bolded above. This was an excellent business decison by D*. They make more money. The subs follow because at the end of the day, they have to have their Sunday Ticket.


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## RapidRealm (Nov 12, 2007)

digital223 said:


> I am not a D* sub.
> If I am not mistaken local networks are included in each package offered by D*. I could be wrong.


Locals are NOT included in all packages. I started my service in the pre-locals era. I was offered to add local to my existing subscription, but for an additional $10/mon. I chose not to.


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## Jaysv (Nov 15, 2005)

Under $50 would be nice, zero would be nice for those of us who can't get HD locals via satellite.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stogie5150 said:


> Someone else that 'gets it'. D* is no longer about the best or the cheapest. Which is why I said earlier its no better or worse than an average cable company. Some of us remember when D* prided itself on giving it subscribers the most, best quality, AND holding the line on price. Now, its how can we squeeze another buck out of the poor unfortunates that got roped into a 2 year commitment.
> 
> The only part of that whole post I quoted above that I disagree with is what I bolded above. This was an excellent business decison by D*. They make more money. The subs follow because at the end of the day, they have to have their Sunday Ticket.


So what service are you using now, that you have access to the same HD Lineup?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

stogie5150 said:


> Someone else that 'gets it'. D* is no longer about the best or the cheapest. Which is why I said earlier its no better or worse than an average cable company. Some of us remember when D* prided itself on giving it subscribers the most, best quality, AND holding the line on price. Now, its how can we squeeze another buck out of the poor unfortunates that got roped into a 2 year commitment.
> 
> The only part of that whole post I quoted above that I disagree with is what I bolded above. This was an excellent business decison by D*. They make more money. The subs follow because at the end of the day, they have to have their Sunday Ticket.


DIRECTV is not always the least costly, Dish network often is, they go to greater extremes to keep costs contained. That said, there are configurations and packages that are less costly with DIRECTV than anyone else. For instance, my setup would be $100/month more if I went with Comcast and that for fewer HD channels (by far!) and no NFL ST. (The NFL ST was not included in the price difference.)



RapidRealm said:


> Locals are NOT included in all packages. I started my service in the pre-locals era. I was offered to add local to my existing subscription, but for an additional $10/mon. I chose not to.


I think the OP was stating that all current packages do have locals included at the base price. With current packages, one can opt out of locals for a $3/month savings.

I'm guessing you are in a grandfathered package, that might be to your advantage to maintain, which would explain why $10/month would be the cost to add locals that package's price for locals.

Lastly, I do not expect an announcement before CES 2008 and Earl trumped my hint, I fully expect it way, way before CES 2009 (we make a good team). Part of why I don't expect an announcement before CES 2008 is that I don't expect _any_ DIRECTV announcements this week before CES 2008. 

Happy HD New Year!
Tom


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Does anyone know if the new OTA solution for the HR21 will work with HR20s? I ask in hopes that the new OTA solution will have an improved ATSC tuner that better handles multipath than does the tuner in the HR-20s. Right now my OTA antenna fed directly to the TV gets better results than through the HR20.

Any details yet on how the OTA feed will be fed into the HR21 (which port, diplexed into the sat line, etc)


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

The droping of OTA from the HR21 is a pain, I love having the OTA channel right on the same guild as my DTV channels, and don't give me the crap argument that DTV offer locals, cause they don't offer them all, and the down res the ones they do offer. Give me a one box solution, I don't want to clutter my house with crap when they already have an HR20 designed, why don't they just run anouther 20K production or whatever and sell me a couple. It looks like in some markets they will never even get a deal worked out with the local networks! And they will never add the local small channels, I can see adding the HR21 for those that don't care, but don't discountinue a working HR20 for everyone. Is it impossible to bring the HR20 back? Are they planning on having a plug in box to tune OTA on the HR21? Why do they rush into everything, normally you would have a working solution before you stop offering the current working solution. Oh well all I can do is ***** and complain until I get fiber installed to the house, then bye bye DTV and hello on demand whatever the hell I want whenever the hell I want it. 10 years and OTA is dead anyway.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

tkrandall said:


> Does anyone know if the new OTA solution for the HR21 will work with HR20s? I ask in hopes that the new OTA solution will have an improved ATSC tuner that better handles multipath than does the tuner in the HR-20s. Right now my OTA antenna fed directly to the TV gets better results than through the HR20.
> 
> Any details yet on how the OTA feed will be fed into the HR21 (which port, diplexed into the sat line, etc)


I highly doubt the OTA solution will be enabled on the HR20s. From a technical standpoint, I can't see why it wouldn't "work"; I just don't see DIRECTV making that a reality.

The solution will be USB based and you just need to get an antenna feed anyway you would for an HR20--diplexed, separate, indoor, or hunk of wire out the back. 

Hopefully at CES we'll be told more information we can discuss publicly. It sure sounds cool, I look forward to when I can say more. 

Elephanthead, I feel your frustration. I believe DIRECTV had planned to have the solution for the HR21s out sooner.

Happy New Year, everyone!
Tom


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## looter (Oct 1, 2007)

Elephanthead said:


> Why do they rush into everything, normally you would have a working solution before you stop offering the current working solution.


Good question! True genius on DIRECTVs part.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

So...what do you folks think they're going to charge for the solution?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Ken S said:


> So...what do you folks think they're going to charge for the solution?


What ever the market will support.

If people are buying it at $99... it will be $99.
If not... it will be lowered....

My guess it will probably be marginally above the cost to manufaturer the device.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So what service are you using now, that you have access to the same HD Lineup?


None. Other than an OTA antenna and some FTA channels. ALL of the services are overrpriced, and the quality for what you receive is not acceptable.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stogie5150 said:


> None. Other than an OTA antenna and some FTA channels. ALL of the services are overrpriced, and the quality for what you receive is not acceptable.


I really should take a trip down to were you are...
To see this substantial difference in HD quality (Between OTA and the SAT).

As I just don't see it here in Chicago.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I really should take a trip down to were you are...
> To see this substantial difference in HD quality (Between OTA and the SAT).
> 
> As I just don't see it here in Chicago.


You don't have to waste a trip just to check TV signals, although you're more than welcome to come have some fun down here.

Being that stogie5150 says he's in Slidell, La, he would get the New Orleans HD locals and the mpeg-4 versions provided by DirecTV are indistinguishable from the OTA for all practical comparisions. Both are spectacular.


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## RS4 (Jul 1, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> ...
> 
> Elephanthead, I feel your frustration. I believe DIRECTV had planned to have the solution for the HR21s out sooner. ...
> 
> Tom


That seems to be their MO, eh?? I think I read the SWM was going to be available at the end of the year... 2006 that is. And, of course everyone knows how long it took them to get the HR20 going... yup - pie in the sky


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

say-what said:


> You don't have to waste a trip just to check TV signals, although you're more than welcome to come have some fun down here.
> 
> Being that stogie5150 says he's in Slidell, La, he would get the New Orleans HD locals and the mpeg-4 versions provided by DirecTV are indistinguishable from the OTA for all practical comparisions. Both are spectacular.


Fellas, I am NOT talking just about locals. I am talking about locals AND NATIONAL HD channels.

What little time I had my locals in HD,( remember I discontinued service in September), they were indeed good. To my eye not as good as OTA, but close. All the squeezing and resqueezing and uplinking and downlinking introduces all kinds of imperfections in the PQ. 
When I can see blocking on a 720p display, that is bad, I don't care how you slice it. And, also the Ka signals are VERY iffy in the rain. I had 90's across the board on 103 and if it rained with any intensity at all, those channels were gone. I just did a reaim for a good friend that still has his D* service, and he has the same problem. siganls in the 90-91 range, if it rains a good thundershower, he loses signal. He now wants a 4228 antenna like I have so he doesn't lose his HD locals. That just isn't acceptable. Not paying what D* is asking for, anyway.

For what we (did) pay I expect as equal quality as possible. And now, having access to TSReader and to actually SEE the bitrates that various services are using, and seeing the results...I'm underwhelmed.

But like I have always said, if you like it and think you're getting good value, hey, hooray for you. But to say that D* has the BEST PQ, is, well, a fabrication at best, and an outright LIE at worst.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

stogie5150 said:


> But like I have always said, if you like it and think you're getting good value, hey, hooray for you. But to say that D* has the BEST PQ, is, well, a fabrication at best, and an outright LIE at worst.


There is no carrier by that definition that can then claim they have the best PQ.

Only the tinest percentage of the population out there can get the other options (C-Band)...


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

stogie5150 said:


> Fellas, I am NOT talking about locals. I am talking about NATIONAL HD channels.
> 
> What little time I had my locals in HD,( remember I discontinued service in September), they were indeed good. But the national HD channels were nasty compared to master feeds one can get with a c-band dish and a digicipher unit. NASTY.
> When I can see blocking on a 720p display, that is bad, I don't care how you slice it. And, also the Ka signals are VERY iffy in the rain. I had 90's across the board on 103 and if it rained with any intensity at all, those channels were gone. I just did a reaim for a good friend that still has his D* service, and he has the same problem. siganls in the 90-91 range, if it rains a good thundershower, he loses signal.
> ...


Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but the new HD channels look pretty darn good. I don't care about bit rates, I care about what I can see with my own eyes and they say the PQ on the new HD channels is pretty darn good and that's all that matters.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

This is getting way off topic.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

ggergm said:


> This is getting way off topic.


You're right. I apologize. I'll leave y'all alone. :lol:


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What ever the market will support.
> 
> If people are buying it at $99... it will be $99.
> *If not... it will be lowered....*
> ...


Why would it be lowered?

If the demand as some claim (me claiming I want/need it is not the same as me claiming D* is losing 000's of customers since they don't have it) is as strong as they say it will be, set the price and be done. Expecially if the price of the HR21 drops to $199.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Herdfan said:


> Why would it be lowered?
> 
> If the demand as some claim (me claiming I want/need it is not the same as me claiming D* is losing 000's of customers since they don't have it) is as strong as they say it will be, set the price and be done. Expecially if the price of the HR21 drops to $199.


If no one is getting it... they will want to eliminate the stock that they have built up... because of all the clamoring for it.

OR the costs of making them go down, thus they don't need to leave it at a higher price... so it is less of an argument due to price.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

say-what said:


> Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but the new HD channels look pretty darn good. I don't care about bit rates, I care about what I can see with my own eyes and they say the PQ on the new HD channels is pretty darn good and that's all that matters.


Agreed .. I find the HD channels on DIRECTV to be exceptional ..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If no one is getting it... they will want to eliminate the stock that they have built up... because of all the clamoring for it.
> 
> OR the costs of making them go down, thus they don't need to leave it at a higher price... so it is less of an argument due to price.


While that is certainly market forces, I suspect that the price will be somewhat fixed from the day it comes out. Of course, DIRECTV may end up negotiating the price in much the way it does with receivers .. I guess we won't really know until it happens.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

As always, lots of forces will affect pricing. Will the price go down? Only if non-zero.  Will it go up? Not likely. That is very rare in high-tech these days.

Will it be acceptable? Yes to some people, no to some people. How many fall on each side is the question. 

Happy New Year!
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Tom .. well said.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

So, no one but me is thinking a monthly charge is coming along with this?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Ken S said:


> So, no one but me is thinking a monthly charge is coming along with this?


Seem like it .. I certainly don't think there will be a monthy charge. They could have already started it by now with the HR20 and HR10 series.


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## cbearnm (Sep 6, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> WAY WAY before CES 2009


Kind of like the Home Media Sharing that they displayed at CES 2005 (or was it 2004?). They told me it should be released by July of whatever year it was. I'm turning blue. :lol:

OK, to get back on topic, I have been getting many calls to upgrade my HR10 (TiVo) to an HR2x. I also currently have an HR20 and despite all the problems initially, it has been very solid for 6 months (Other then an OTA channel freezing for 3 days, they are supposedly sending me a replacement.) I really need (OK, want) the OTA tuners, but they won't guarantee that I'll get one with them.

I am afraid that the replacement for the HR20 will have no OTA, and then if I upgrade the HR10, it will also have no OTA. I'm thinking I will wait to see which receiver I get for the replacement, then decide on giving up my dual live buffers on the other receiver.



Earl Bonovich said:


> I really should take a trip down to were you are...
> To see this substantial difference in HD quality (Between OTA and the SAT).
> 
> As I just don't see it here in Chicago.


Even if there is no difference in quality, (which is debatable) there is still the availability of sub channels. Unless D* is going to make them all available (NBCs weather plus, for example), cutting off the OTA is a step backward. I agree that the HD from D* is virtually indistinguishable from OTA, but any time a company wants to step backward in feature sets, they will get hammered.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

cbearnm said:


> any time a company wants to step backward in feature sets, they will get hammered.


Directv has been RUNNING backwards. :lol:

First with the decision to abandon TIVO, now the elimination of OTA with no immediate solution for those who need ( or want) it for whatever reason.

And my bill just kept going up up up. :nono2:


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If no one is getting it... they will want to eliminate the stock that they have built up... because of all the clamoring for it.


Then they need to stop reading these boards.:lol:

I guess a lot of demand will depend on distribution. If it is D* only, then I think the demand will be lower than if they open it up at a minimum to the big satellite dealers (Solidsignal, VE etc.). If they get it in the big box stores, then they may move quite a few.


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## waynenm (Oct 31, 2006)

stogie5150 said:


> Directv has been RUNNING backwards. :lol:
> 
> First with the decision to abandon TIVO, now the elimination of OTA with no immediate solution for those who need ( or want) it for whatever reason.
> 
> And my bill just kept going up up up. :nono2:


Ah, but there *will* be an OTA option. Or so they say...


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Agreed .. I find the HD channels on DIRECTV to be exceptional ..


I'd go so far as to say they now (since D10 has been up and the channels have been resequenced) are about as good as they have ever been.

I had the opportunity to watch 5 of the same channels on a friend's Comcast HD setup over the holidays and the cable HD pailed in comparison - and he has very expensive projector and other equipment in place (all tuned properly as well).

It is really a (business) smart move by DirecTV to take the approach to offer an independent OTA soluton for those who want it, rather than just build it into all the boxes for the mainstream when less than 20% will use those tuners.

What many folks forget is that we're talking about millions of boxes here, so those $10-$20-$30 incremental costs are substantial...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

stogie5150 said:


> Directv has been RUNNING backwards. :lol:
> 
> First with the decision to abandon TIVO, now the elimination of OTA with no immediate solution for those who need ( or want) it for whatever reason.
> 
> And my bill just kept going up up up. :nono2:


Didn't you drop DIRECTV service in September? I suspect your DIRECTV bill has been running backwards as well.


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## MIKE0616 (Dec 13, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Basically in a relatively short period of time the HR20's will no longer be available... all that will be there is the HR21's.
> 
> And the OTA solution should (and most likely will be) available then.
> 
> ...


That is probably the best case that E* can hope for. If they continue o develop their HD offerings and keep their "free" devices, what more could they wish for in a marketing campaign? Yes, they charge a monthly fee for locals, but then so does D*, so that is a draw. D* may want to capitalize on the market short-term, but this whole thing sounds like another Edsel to me. :lol:


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

OTA is important to me for two reasons:

1>When I compare OTA from the Empire State Building to D*s MPEG4 I see a difference. Mind you this is on a middle of the road 1366x768 Toshiba Regza. D*s MPEG4 is very good but since it is a rehash (MPEG2 decode, MPEG4 re encode) it can never be as good as the original and I see this with my own eyes.

2>Sub channels. Not enough is made of this when discussing OTA. There is a lot of programming my family likes that comes form the local sub channels. D* does not offer the sub channels. For argument sake the local cableco does.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It is really a (business) smart move by DirecTV to take the approach to offer an independent OTA soluton for those who want it, rather than just build it into all the boxes for the mainstream when less than 20% will use those tuners.


Of the broadcast TV channels available in your area, what percentage of them does DIRECTV not carry? For a non-negligible percentage of the subscribers (around 30%), that number is 100%. For those with a PBS HD and/or subchannels (outside of AK and HI), that number is greater than zero.

The key is to have everything in place to provide the channels before you implement a phase-out of the equipment required to receive them otherwise.

Making the OTA tuner modular is something that DISH tried previously and it was expensive and confusing. You have to balance the cost of designing, getting approval for, building and distributing an external solution with the cost of throwing it in. In this case, I'm betting that the lost goodwill due to "nickel and diming" and confusion will offset any savings that might result.


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## AZ_Engineer (Nov 14, 2007)

I think one needs to first examine why they stopped the HR20 in the first place. I see two reasons;
1) They want people to pay for locals from the sat
2) They are experiencing support costs related to the antenna input and all the potential problems customers have with an antenna.

I suspect they removed them for the HR21 to solve those two issues. Now they have a lot of customer pushback.

I have been with them for 12 years. I was a very early adopter of the Philips DSR6000 and also of the HR10-250. ALL the locals in HD integrated with the guide for the sat channels is ESSENTIAL for me. I know all the arguements for having two DVRs, but after having it integrated, I don't want go back to multiple remotes and having to swap TV inputs all the time.

I'm still using HR10-250s and I'm clearly at a crossroads. 
1) I like Tivo better than the alternatives. 
2) We use dual tuners, and dual live buffers all the time. 
3) DTivo is heading for a brick wall
4) Cable can't go above 15 HD channels without MAJOR capital investment
5) No FIOS in Phoenix
6) Tivo HD faces the SDV issue with cable, Dongle reported on the way
7) No more HR20s, ATSC solution coming some time before 2009.

I've been close to this industry for a while. D was paying $1 a month to Tivo for guide data. Murdoch wanted to control the user experience and wanted to get his customers comfortable with a D exclusive interface and experience so they broke the relationship with Tivo. Their partner for the HR20 stumbled badly and the HR20 was very delayed. Unfortnately for consumers, D had already broken with Tivo, and the supplier of the HR10, so bug fixes for that platform were on theslow burner for 12 months. So here we are today.

HR20 still seems to have reliability issues. IF, (big if) I could find two, it's likely they would end up being replaced by HR21s down the road without the tuner (until some time before 2009)

IMHO Murdoch made a stupid move. Think about it, Tivo was only costing them $1 a subscriber per month. Why not offer two tiers of DVR? Basic for $5 a month, and Tivo for $10. They would make a ton of margin off the Tivo subscribers.

For now I'm holding with the HR10-250s. I won't switch to anything without integated locals. In reality we only watch a few non-local channels anyway. In the end, I'd give them up before I'd give up Dual tuners and dual live buffers for the 12 local HD channels I get with my antenna. Seems stupid for D to let $1400 a year customers like me leave over this stuff.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm with you man...

I've still kept my HR10-250. I drove around all over the place last weekend trying to find an HR20 in stores before giving up. I know I can buy one on eBay and maybe thats what I'll end up doing if I decide to make the jump before DTV comes out with an OTA solution for the HR21.

I've come to the following conclusions:

1) I guess I like the Tivo UI because I'm used to it

2) I guess the HR10-250 will never support MPEG4 (*although it could be made to*). Think about it... DTV is moving from a 1 box solution to a 4 box solution. HR21 + 2 B-band convertors + OTA box... nothing to stop someone from inventing a MPEG4 -> MPEG2 box for the HR10-250.

3) I guess I could like something else if it was equivalent or better or at the very least didn't take away features that *I* use

4) I live in the LA area, so DTV does offer *some of my locals*, but not all. Honestly, I don't really use the OTA on my HR10-250 except to record 2 shows on the local PBS. So OTA *is* a feature I use (although lightly)

5) DLB is a feature I use *alot*

No DLB is the one feature that has stopped me from moving to the HR20/HR21 platform. No OTA was just another nail in the coffin.

And honestly, once you take away the HD sports channels I'm not going to watch and the HD premium movie channels I'm not going to watch, I'm left with 5 or 6 channels that I will watch in HD... Discovery HD, etc.

I use DLB to the point where its almost a break even between losing it and gaining mythbusters in 1080i .

And in conclusion, I'd like to see the report from the bean counters that says a 4 box solution is cheaper to produce and support then a 1 box solution. I just don't believe that.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

stogie5150 said:


> First with the decision to abandon TIVO


There is more to this than DirecTV dropping Tivo. It was a mutual decision.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Guys, there is already a moratorium on the entire OTA solution .. specifically because of the banter back and forth over why DIRECTV chose to remove OTA when it created the HR21 .. Let's keep this thread about the potential cost of the device or it will need to be closed. The other thread will reopen around 10pm CT on Friday and this discussion can continue at that point.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

From the envelope hermetically sealed in the mayonnaise jar on Funk and Wagnell's back porch, the price will be... wait for it...

$19.95 

Why that price? Why not? just as good a guess as anyone else's.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

harsh said:


> Of the broadcast TV channels available in your area, what percentage of them does DIRECTV not carry? For a non-negligible percentage of the subscribers (around 30%), that number is 100%. For those with a PBS HD and/or subchannels (outside of AK and HI), that number is greater than zero.


I get multiples of ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, as well as 3 others via ORA. DirecTV carries all of them except for PBS HD.


> The key is to have everything in place to provide the channels before you implement a phase-out of the equipment required to receive them otherwise.


I have both OTA-supporting and non-OTA-supporting equipment. OTA has had no impact to the acquisition of my equipment whatsoever.


> Making the OTA tuner modular is something that DISH tried previously and it was expensive and confusing. You have to balance the cost of designing, getting approval for, building and distributing an external solution with the cost of throwing it in. In this case, I'm betting that the lost goodwill due to "nickel and diming" and confusion will offset any savings that might result.


I guess it depends on how it is implemented. It does not *have to be *complicated nor expensive. We'll have to see how things are deployed by DirecTV once testing is completed.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

I would be fine with a $50-$75 charge and $1-2 for the guide data.

Now the NON-OTA Boxes MUST be $50-$75 less as well.

Anyting over $75 is starting to get a bit high. Then again in reality, how many subs are REALLY going to need this?

I am one and I want the option at least on my main TV which has a HR20-700 anyways.

Any replacement box should be replaced with a OTA box or a FREE OTA tuner. No questions asked!

I want/need OTA for rain face and I like the weather and video sub channles that D* does NOT offer. I still pay for the locals anyways.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

gio12 said:


> Now the NON-OTA Boxes MUST be $50-$75 less as well.


I believe that there is a price reduction coming up soon on the HR21s .. If so, this should fit into what you are looking for.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Ok - the new converter boxes for the analog shutoff are expected to cost between $50-70. It uses a Microtune chip. Thats one complete tuner. And usb based tuners currently on the market are similar in pricing. 

What I can't find is a reference design for a dual tuner usb atsc tuner. The pci dual designs take 2 rf inputs so I would assume this would also - or at least it would be split internally. So I am thinking it is not a 'stick' design. I am guessing it is a small box with 1 rf input which is split internally into 2 tuners. Then its 2 normal atsc tuner/decoders spitting out an mpeg2 ts on usb. I am a bit confused how the ts gets from the usb host controller to the ts input on the chip though ?


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

harsh said:


> Making the OTA tuner modular is something that DISH tried previously and it was expensive and confusing. You have to balance the cost of designing, getting approval for, building and distributing an external solution with the cost of throwing it in. In this case, I'm betting that the lost goodwill due to "nickel and diming" and confusion will offset any savings that might result.


I agree 100%. If they are lowering the price of the HR21 to $199, it seems it would have been just as easy to do two things:1) Keep the HR20 and sell it at $299 (Same price as HR21 + $99 OTA solution) and 2) Add HD-DVR w/OTA to the list of available receivers so customers can easily specify which receiver they wanted are are willing to pay for.


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## SledgeHammer (Dec 28, 2007)

I'd buy an HR20 off eBay @ $299+ before I'd buy an HR21 for $199 and an OTA solution for another $99. Integrated is better. And I'd already have enough [email protected] hanging off the back of my DTV box (2 b-band converters and a diplexer) without tossing yet another thing in there that'll probably need to be plugged in to the wall as well.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bhelton71 said:


> What I can't find is a reference design for a dual tuner usb atsc tuner.


Maybe you should be looking at an Ethernet connected solution. There is at least one available now.


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

I'm going to lease an additional HR unit, expecting an HR21 to be delivered. I would like to know when the external OTA solution will be available.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

From all the hints, we may know more by the end of the week.

I expect the solution to be formally announced at CES next week.

Regarding ship dates, that is something we'll find out about.

As to the price guessing game, I guess $99 for the OTA tuners with the HR21 going down to $199. I also predict DirecTV will offer price protection on the HR21. Anybody who bought an HR21 for $299 will be able to have their choice of receiving the OTA solution for free or a $100 programming credit.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

^ The more I think about price protection, the more I think this might be tough to do. What about the guy who got an HR21 from DirecTV for less than $299? What about the person who bought it from Best Buy or CostCo? I don't know how they'd work this out.

Say you got your HR21 for free. Would you now have to pay for the OTA solution? If there is price protection, shouldn't the OTA solution be yours for free, also? If you don't get the OTA tuners, do you deserve a programming credit? You already got the HR21 for free.

This could get sticky.


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## stogie5150 (Feb 21, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> Didn't you drop DIRECTV service in September? I suspect your DIRECTV bill has been running backwards as well.


Technically I am still a subscriber...I still pay 19.95 a month for the Family Pack. But the receivers are in a box in the closet and the dish is off my house in the shed.

Its quite liberating.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

harsh said:


> Maybe you should be looking at an Ethernet connected solution. There is at least one available now.


Well - thats my thought also - I don't have an HR21 but from what I understand there is only 1 usb port on the back. But there are 2 ethernet ports and the HDHomeRun was the first thing I thought of. But everyone is convinced it is usb - so can the HDHomeRun be modified for USB ? Probably - there are several 2 tuner usb boxes - although all I have seen are hybrid 1 NTSC 1 ATSC/QAM - never 2 atsc/qam. And I think that puts the *retail* well over $100 - so the next question is - how much is DirecTV willing to subsidize on these ? What is the acceptable p/l margin ?

My cost guess - "The next 100 callers will get it for the amazing price of 4 easy payments of 29.95"


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Sure hope they weren't planning on it costing less than 100$.. after this thread they will definately cost at least 100 :lol:


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

To those advocating more HR20s be built, one problem with the HR20 is that its ATSC tuner is not a very robust design. It does not handle marginal signal or mutlipath nearly as well as my Samsung DLP's tuner does. I live only 20 miles from Atlanta station towers but have a 600-700 foot ridge about a mile+ away in the line of site that presents attenuation and multipathing issues. I have a channel master 4228 on the roof. 

While an integrated design would be ideal, I am hoping the new external solution will at least have a more robust ATSC tuner in it.

Tom Robertson: Are there any indications yet if it will be a dual tuner design?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tkrandall said:


> Tom Robertson: Are there any indications yet if it will be a dual tuner design?


Yes, it has been confirmed that it will be a dual tuner design


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, it has been confirmed that it will be a dual tuner design


Well that's good. Any word on if the ATSC tuner is is a more up to date design than the one incorporated into the HR20? I believe I have read the HR20's tuner is a bit of a dated design and does not incorporate some advances that have been made in signal processing and dealing with multipath.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tkrandall said:


> Well that's good. Any word on if the ATSC tuner is is a more up to date design than the one incorporated into the HR20? I believe I have read the HR20's tuner is a bit of a dated design and does not incorporate some advances that have been made in signal processing and dealing with multipath.


I don't know what actual components are being used in the solution.... yet


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Earl, you asked about quality differences between OTA and the MPEG 4 Locals. I can tell you that 95% of the time, I can tell within the first 5 minutes if the program was recorded off the OTA version of the DirecTV provided local. Mostly, I see posterization and gradient blocks in the background. When we set up the HR20, my wife added most of the new Series Links using the MPEG 4 locals and I started noticing and changing them back. We sit about 9 feet from a 2001 Mitsubishi 46" CRT RPTV.

On the other hand, thae difference is slight and my wife cannot tell. I will admit it probably looks fine to most people, but there is a definite difference. And of course, as more people get better TVs it will probably be more noticable.


I do think they would never charge a monthly fee for the OTA tuner as that would surely drive customer somplaints.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> tkrandall said:
> 
> 
> > Tom Robertson: Are there any indications yet if it will be a dual tuner design?
> ...


Will the HR21 with the OTA solution still only able to record two streams, exactly like the HR20 with its internal OTA tuners? If the HR21 could handle writing 5 streams at once to the hard drive (two from internal sat tuners, two from external OTA tuners, plus VOD), I wonder if people would be willing to pay an OTA monthly fee!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Drew2k said:


> Will the HR21 with the OTA solution still only able to record two streams, exactly like the HR20 with its internal OTA tuners? If the HR21 could handle writing 5 streams at once to the hard drive (two from internal sat tuners, two from external OTA tuners, plus VOD), I wonder if people would be willing to pay an OTA monthly fee!


2 broadcast streams at a time.
3 if you include DoD


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 2 broadcast streams at a time.
> 3 if you include DoD


Great information Earl.

This should be a solid solution!


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know what actual components are being used in the solution.... yet


Understand, I'm not wanting specifics, just hoping its a better/more state of the art tuner at handling signal issues.


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## rotohead (Nov 29, 2007)

This issue has got me to rethink re-activating my HR10-250. If it's going to cost me more then $50 just for a dual OTA tuner I might as well have DLB, the use of a modified HD that will record 70 Hrs of HD and a backup for my HR21 and record OTA all for the price of another mirriored reciever. I'm glad I didn't throw that HR10 away.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

tkrandall said:


> Understand, I'm not wanting specifics, just hoping its a better/more state of the art tuner at handling signal issues.


Very seriously doubt you will get something with the 6th generation tuners. Even the Zenith converter boxes for the coupon program are getting 5th generation tuners. No way LG lets those go to anything but their LCD's. I don't think they even let the 5th gen stuff go very far from home.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

bhelton71 said:


> Very seriously doubt you will get something with the 6th generation tuners. Even the Zenith converter boxes for the coupon program are getting 5th generation tuners. No way LG lets those go to anything but their LCD's. I don't think they even let the 5th gen stuff go very far from home.


Not looking for 6th generation per se. 5th generation or equivalent would be fine. I think someone asserted many months ago here, or perhaps on AVS forum, that the HR20's ATSC tuner was of like a "3rd generation" variety that was known not to handle multipath well. I know it cannot hold a candle to the performance of the tuner inside my Sammy HL-S6187W DLP set. I think some have said the H20 may also have a better OTA tuner than does the HR20.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> I think some have said the H20 may also have a better OTA tuner than does the HR20.


The H20-600 is made by LG and was rumored to have the 5th generation tuner.


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

The CM 4228 has a very wide reception beam width which contributes to multi-path. You would be better off with a more directional Yagi type antenna to help reject the multiple signals.



tkrandall said:


> To those advocating more HR20s be built, one problem with the HR20 is that its ATSC tuner is not a very robust design. It does not handle marginal signal or mutlipath nearly as well as my Samsung DLP's tuner does. I live only 20 miles from Atlanta station towers but have a 600-700 foot ridge about a mile+ away in the line of site that presents attenuation and multipathing issues. I have a channel master 4228 on the roof.
> 
> While an integrated design would be ideal, I am hoping the new external solution will at least have a more robust ATSC tuner in it.
> 
> Tom Robertson: Are there any indications yet if it will be a dual tuner design?


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## ztrips (Nov 28, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 2 broadcast streams at a time.
> 3 if you include DoD


DoD on HR21?? :eek2:


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> The H20-600 is made by LG and was rumored to have the 5th generation tuner.


That would make sense - so if you could get your hands on an OTA21-600-TUNERTHINGY (or whatever they call it) - then maybe a 5th gen - otherwise I think your stuck with 3rd or 4th gen. And in my area I would rather get 3rd since we have a couple of repeaters in the area - DOCR was left out of 4th I think and put back in 5th.

Edit: just thought about this - older tuner design should be cheaper - right ?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ztrips said:


> DoD on HR21?? :eek2:


Yes, DoD will be on the HR21.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bhelton71 said:


> That would make sense - so if you could get your hands on an OTA21-600-TUNERTHINGY (or whatever they call it) - then maybe a 5th gen - otherwise I think your stuck with 3rd or 4th gen. And in my area I would rather get 3rd since we have a couple of repeaters in the area - DOCR was left out of 4th I think and put back in 5th.
> 
> Edit: just thought about this - older tuner design should be cheaper - right ?


Newer should be less expensive, generally speaking. And better.

At the very worst, no one would be able to sell a new generation of tuners at a higher price than last years unless it make hot cocoa as well as chilled the beers. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Elephanthead (Feb 3, 2007)

OK, my question is can I use the $40 TV welfare coupon from uncle sam to buy this upgrade?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Elephanthead said:


> OK, my question is can I use the $40 TV welfare coupon from uncle sam to buy this upgrade?


The coupon is supposed to be used only on straight converter boxes that are absent of any digital outputs. The DIRECTV OTA solution won't fit the criteria since the OTA solution will not work without a DIRECTV receiver.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Elephanthead said:


> OK, my question is can I use the $40 TV welfare coupon from uncle sam to buy this upgrade?


No. It is designed for those without sat or cable service.


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## ztrips (Nov 28, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, DoD will be on the HR21.


Any hints on when?


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> The coupon is supposed to be used only on straight converter boxes that are absent of any digital outputs. The DIRECTV OTA solution won't fit the criteria since the OTA solution will not work without a DIRECTV receiver.


That and they are not exactly something most people I know would even want. As I understand it - yes it is an atsc tuner - but it only puts out the older NTSC signal on an RF output. So no HD output. It will probably look better than current analog off air - but still lower rez than even EDTV. It wouldn't be of any use to HR21 folks for sure.


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## bhelton71 (Mar 8, 2007)

Tom Robertson said:


> Newer should be less expensive, generally speaking. And better.
> 
> At the very worst, no one would be able to sell a new generation of tuners at a higher price than last years unless it make hot cocoa as well as chilled the beers.
> 
> ...


I was thinking more in terms of "Economies of scale" - the newer ones are not as massed produced as the older designs. Yes - the newer dies etc - do typically cost less - but not at the beginning. Sort of like general cpus - new silicon designs are actually cheaper but they recoup r&d, marketing, etc in the beginning.

I think everyone agrees the 4th gen stuff was pretty bad. The 5th gen was apparently very good though and LG built off of the 5th gen design for the latest. For what ever reason (possibly some cost reduction?) they removed the 3rd gen circuitry to deal with repeaters in an area in 4th gen - and added it back in 5th. So you sort of get the hot cocoa (back) - and of course the increased sensitivity is the chilled beer  .


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

ztrips said:


> Any hints on when?


This one's too easy....

SOON. 

*Please note that I have simply taken the liberty to be the first to respond with the answer you would most likely receive anyway... *:lol:


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

bt-rtp said:


> The CM 4228 has a very wide reception beam width which contributes to multi-path. You would be better off with a more directional Yagi type antenna to help reject the multiple signals.


But the problem is I have a 12 degree spread (135 degree to 147 degrees) between the stations (about 5 locations in this spread) and am concerned about "too directional" solutions. There is an additional station (PBS) that is 20 degrees furhter off line at 119 degrees. Both it and one of the middle stations are high VHF for digital and the 4228 picks them up. The 4228's ability to pick up high VHF is one of the reasons I have it. Otherwise I would need to look at seperate VHF/UHF feeds.

Which UHF only antennas would work with a 12 degree spread?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

bhelton71 said:


> As I understand it - yes it is an atsc tuner - but it only puts out the older NTSC signal on an RF output.


It is also allowed to output line level via RCA jacks. It is expressly prohibited from delivering anything other than NTSC video.


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## gb33 (Sep 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Basically in a relatively short period of time the HR20's will no longer be available... all that will be there is the HR21's.


 This really stinks! I need OTA for local CBS, and my HR20-700 has had a bad sat tuner for past couple of months now. I have been putting off calling to exchange it. Now sounds like I will be s.o.l on getting another hr20 eh?


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

harsh said:


> Of the broadcast TV channels available in your area, what percentage of them does DIRECTV not carry? For a non-negligible percentage of the subscribers (around 30%), that number is 100%. For those with a PBS HD and/or subchannels (outside of AK and HI), that number is greater than zero.
> 
> The key is to have everything in place to provide the channels before you implement a phase-out of the equipment required to receive them otherwise.
> 
> Making the OTA tuner modular is something that DISH tried previously and it was expensive and confusing. You have to balance the cost of designing, getting approval for, building and distributing an external solution with the cost of throwing it in. In this case, I'm betting that the lost goodwill due to "nickel and diming" and confusion will offset any savings that might result.


I don't think so, because the vast majority of people upgrading from SD don't have the OTA option (via the DirecTV box) anyway. With the imminent price reduction of the HD DVRs, the price with the tuner options is still less than before.


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## mdernst (Dec 24, 2005)

gb33 said:


> This really stinks! I need OTA for local CBS, and my HR20-700 has had a bad sat tuner for past couple of months now. I have been putting off calling to exchange it. Now sounds like I will be s.o.l on getting another hr20 eh?


I just had to have (less than 2 weeks ago) an HR20-700 replaced due to a bad HDMI connector and received an HR20-100 replacement. When I spoke to tech support I just indicated that I needed Off-Air capabilities and she said she would note that on the order.

Mike


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Can I guess? 

To the original post.. $59


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Think this thread is done..


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

To be replaced by a new thread where people ***** about the new solution.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Carl Spock said:


> To be replaced by a new thread where people ***** about the new solution.


That already happening in a scattering of other threads...

Not a lot, but it is already occuring


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> To be replaced by a new thread where people ***** about the new solution.


Maybe we need a Brag & Moan sub forum. :eek2:

You know, there a few users that even if D* were to pay them to have it installed they'd still complain. :lol:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> To be replaced by a new thread where people ***** about the new solution.


You beat me to it, and I have already posted multiple replies to the naysayers.

Some people just can't take *yes* for an answer...


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That already happening in a scattering of other threads...
> 
> Not a lot, but it is already occuring


But when you stop and think of it, it is a deal. The new price for the HR21 is $199 and the AM21 is $59, for a total of $258. If you bought one of the remaining HR20's it would cost you $299.00.


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## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

loudo said:


> But when you stop and think of it, it is a deal. The new price for the HR21 is $199 and the AM21 is $59, for a total of $258. If you bought one of the remaining HR20's it would cost you $299.00.


Not if you buy one today


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## looter (Oct 1, 2007)

Zepes said:


> Not if you buy one today


It is EXTREMELY difficult if not impossible to get an HR20 from DIRECTV today.

I was told I was getting an HR20 and now have an HR21. Not cool. Bring on the AM21 and I am good with that.

DIRECTV is far from perfect, but this is a good thing IF I actually get one. Let's hope they get it out soon.

Where's that client/server thing they had at CES, was it 3 years ago now? I believe they call that vaporware...

Remember this?
DIRECTV DVR Client Server
A revolutionary home media entertainment solution
Creates a home network for seamless sharing of live and recorded digital content in multiple rooms
Integrates DVR functionality with high-definition and standard-definition programming
Full navigational functionality including slow motion, instant replay and frame-by-frame
Offers MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 compatibility and software upgrades via satellite

http://www.engadget.com/2005/01/06/directv-ces-home-media-center-and-new-channels/


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Zepes said:


> Not if you buy one today


I got one two weeks ago, from Circuit City and it cost me $299. I don't think you could find one today for sale. The one I bought was the last one in the Central Florida area, at any CC or BB.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

looter said:


> Where's that client/server thing they had at CES, was it 3 years ago now? I believe they call that vaporware...
> 
> Remember this?
> DIRECTV DVR Client Server
> ...


I call it a product that wasn't viable at the time, and has evolved into something else. (aka the HR20's that will soon have MRV)

The AM21 is absolutely not in the same category as the Ucentric HMC


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## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

loudo said:


> I got one two weeks ago, from Circuit City and it cost me $299. I don't think you could find one today for sale. The one I bought was the last one in the Central Florida area, at any CC or BB.


Although it is difficult, and most people can't, they are selling for $199 or less. 
I personally like the HR21 solution, but if you search threads today you will find some individuals that have purchased an HR20 today.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Zepes said:


> Although it is difficult, and most people can't, they are selling for $199 or less.
> I personally like the HR21 solution, but if you search threads today you will find some individuals that have purchased an HR20 today.


My big concern was loosing all of my PBS sub feeds, and locals that DirecTV doesn't send us, in HD/digital format. Knowing the AM21 is on the horizon makes me feel a lot better, if I have to have to replace one of my HR20's.


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## looter (Oct 1, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> (aka the HR20's that will soon have MRV)


Does that go for the HR21 as well or is that in the 'HR21 may eventually get it' category?


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

loudo said:


> I got one two weeks ago, from Circuit City and it cost me $299. I don't think you could find one today for sale. The one I bought was the last one in the Central Florida area, at any CC or BB.


Depends where you are. I bought an HR20-700 at Costco today, and they had at least one more on the shelf. They've been SLOWLY running out of these for the past 3 months or so, but I would be willing to bet (a nickel or so) that I could find an HR20 at any of the 3 Costco's within 30 minutes of my house.

I could be wrong - I'm basing my guess off the activity that these have seen at the Costo which I frequent fairly regularly. They had only HR20s, then when the HR21 came out, they had both, and clearly they haven't received another shipment of the HR20, but it's taken several months to go from a whole pallet of them down to 2 when I was there today. And those 2 have been sitting there for at least 3 weeks - I've been keeping my eye on them hoping they would last past the price drop so I would be ensured an HR20.

Granted, we're a pretty small locale... I imagine finding these at any of the larger cities would be impossible. I could probably drive to any number of stores just 20 miles away in San Jose and not find a single HR20 anywhere. We're just kind of tucked away and the HR20 is not moving very fast in my immediate area.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Depends where you are. I bought an HR20-700 at Costco today, and they had at least one more on the shelf. They've been SLOWLY running out of these for the past 3 months or so, but I would be willing to bet (a nickel or so) that I could find an HR20 at any of the 3 Costco's within 30 minutes of my house.
> 
> I could be wrong - I'm basing my guess off the activity that these have seen at the Costo which I frequent fairly regularly. They had only HR20s, then when the HR21 came out, they had both, and clearly they haven't received another shipment of the HR20, but it's taken several months to go from a whole pallet of them down to 2 when I was there today. And those 2 have been sitting there for at least 3 weeks - I've been keeping my eye on them hoping they would last past the price drop so I would be ensured an HR20.
> 
> Granted, we're a pretty small locale... I imagine finding these at any of the larger cities would be impossible. I could probably drive to any number of stores just 20 miles away in San Jose and not find a single HR20 anywhere. We're just kind of tucked away and the HR20 is not moving very fast in my immediate area.


Two weeks ago, when I bought mine, I had checked all of the stores in Orlando, Daytona Beach and here in Melbourne. I found only the one at CC, here in Melbourne. Don't have any Costco's around here, or I would have checked them, as I had read they had some in stock, at many of their stores.


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## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

loudo said:


> Two weeks ago, when I bought mine, I had checked all of the stores in Orlando, Daytona Beach and here in Melbourne. I found only the one at CC, here in Melbourne. Don't have any Costco's around here, or I would have checked them.


dude, you should take your receipt back and see if they'll cut you a credit. it happens.

like you are going to return it today and buy another tomorrow. CC does this, they are ok sometimes, really.


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

Zepes said:


> dude, you should take your receipt back and see if they'll cut you a credit. it happens.


When I activated it, I got treated right. I am happy.


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## Zepes (Dec 27, 2007)

loudo said:


> When I activated it, I got treated right. I am happy.


It's still worth a try. all they can say is no.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

looter said:


> Does that go for the HR21 as well or is that in the 'HR21 may eventually get it' category?


The HR21's will eventually get MRV as well.


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## General Custer (Nov 5, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR21's will eventually get MRV as well.


About when is the HR20/21 supposed to get MRV?

March? July? December?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I call it a product that wasn't viable at the time, and has evolved into something else.


How did a device that was debuted as a professional home TV server capable of driving multiple displays with modular tuners and expandable storage ends up being an HR21 with a 750GB hard disk and an RS-232 port built in??? It would appear that they only feature that made it into the production unit was the RS-232 port.

I'm pretty certain that they were shooting waaaay above that in 2005. Now is _exactly_ when something like the vision of 2005 should have been introduced and announced for immediate availability.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

General Custer said:


> About when is the HR20/21 supposed to get MRV?
> 
> March? July? December?


Word to the about to be wise: never ask Earl when something is coming. Also, never be afraid to include the year in such a question.


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