# P4.08 - What a Nightmare



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Hi,

Seriously, am I the only one that finds the 508s P4.08 firmware to be a POS?

Looking at the hopeless outdated and extremely lacking information at EKB might have you believe that P4.08 cures all the previous ills, well that is so far from reality. 

I am so angry right now. There's probably at least 20 obvious problems with P4.08, but the one that pisses me off the most is the guide update. Every time the guide updates I have to systematically go through every timer to make sure they are all correct. Inevitably there is at least one timer that will be completely out of sync with the receivers own guide information that has to be fixed.

Anyone have any idea when there will be a new firmware release?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

They're still pushing beta after beta FW for the model these days - perhaps busy with attemps of workaround TiVo patent, so don't expect they will squash your bug soon.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

I thought the 508 wasn't part of the TiVo lawsuit and managed by a different team. Besides, the bug I described above isn't something trivial like, there are more characters used during a search from the guide then what you can type in the search field, it's a rather substantial problem.

I've calm down since my initial post and I have repaired the three screwed up timers the guide update caused this time. I managed to find a tedious fix from within the timer, rather than fixing the timer by deleting it and recreating it from scratch. Which is what I have been doing every couple of days now for months! 

Two days from now the whole process will start all over again when a timer or timers, will be yet again out of sync with the guide information. This bug cuts right to the core of a DVR and I don't trust the receiver at all.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Read that thread : http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2166922&postcount=793


----------



## jkane (Oct 12, 2007)

Because every software issue is somehow related to Tivo! :nono2:

Too bad we didn't have that red herring for the previous 15 years of buggy software updates.


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Blowgun said:


> EKB might have you believe that P4.08 cures all the previous ills,


How did you reach that conclusion based on


current EKB info on P408 said:


> (blank)


which to me is neither good nor bad? I'll give you hopeless[ly] outdated and extremely lacking. What are the other 19 obvious problems new to P408?


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> Blowgun said:
> 
> 
> > EKB might have you believe that P4.08 cures all the previous ills,
> ...


Primarily because for 7 months it showed nothing wrong when even the previous version problem still existed.



BobaBird said:


> What are the other 19 obvious problems new to P408?


Okay, here's my list in no particular order.

The Problems:

01. After updating the EPG, Events that should be recorded are missing from the Daily Schedule.

02. Often enough a Search will find more occurrences of the same title than the timer lists.

03. When fast-forwarding the pause button doesn't do anything right away causing overshooting of the desired stop.

04. When Rewinding the pause button doesn't do anything right away causing overshooting of the desired stop.

05. After pausing, pressing the frame back button actually goes forward several frames. Continuing to press the frame back button eventually returns you to where you originally started.

06. After updating the EPG, navigate several days ahead to locate an Event set to record and select it to go into the Daily Schedule. Pressing the "Today" button no longer takes you to the current date.

07. When there are many recorded events, going from Date sort to Name sort can take a minute or more. However, going back to Date sort is instantaneous.

08. Descriptions are all too often cut off due to the small reserved area allotted and wasted screen space.

09. The lock icon use to be functional and show protected bit.

10. Sometimes in Selected Event the protection icon is vertically cut in half.

11. Other than Live TV or pressing the Info button in My Recordings, in all other places the "Originally Aired" is always 2155 and the "Episode" is always 15871.

12. When watching or recording a channel not in the current favorites list, pressing the right button shows wrong information.

13. Unexplained priority skips event from recording when there is nothing before or after conflicting.

14. Sometimes both the progression gauge and the on-screen fast-forward or rewind icon doesn't appear.

15. When two shows of the same title appear back to back, recording the second event has first event's description.

16. Sometimes when you pause playback and try to frame back, the receiver gets stuck, only the play button works.

17. While rare, sometimes recording doesn't stop and eats up all available space.

18. Adjusting timers too much, without toggling the power can cause the EPG to display "Info Not Available". Only a power reset will fix it.

19. When editing a timer, it shows "Deleted" in Daily Schedule when it should show "Edited".

20. After modifying a timer, either it places you back in the wrong timer, or it places you days earlier in the Daily Schedule.

21. Going between Search and My Recordings too many times creates instability and can lead to receiver lockup.

22. The EPG can become sluggish to navigate (eg: Pressing up button can take upwards of 2 seconds to respond).

23. Manual timer adds padding and can't be adjusted or removed.

24. EPG insertion of title into search field allows more characters than can be manually typed.

25. Rewind and fast-forward no longer are smooth.

The Requests:

01. It would be nice to go from a selected event timer to the same event located in the EPG and then return.

02. Set Priority needs to be able to Sort (option currently ghosted out).

03. Stop abbreviating titles in EPG and improve accuracy. Not so much a feature, but annoying none the less.

04. Option for start early and end late padding needs negative numbers to allow priority of one back to back recording to have full padding (eg: 60 and 62 minute recordings respectively).

05. Option for start early and end late need additional positive numbers, such that two events can be combined into one recording and have one minute padding on both ends (eg: 122 minutes)

06. Manual timers need some way to enter a title. Setting up many manual timers gets confusing.

07. Search History needs more available slots and Edit and Search buttons need to be swapped.

08. Stop using 'Part of the signal was lost' when there is a half second glitch. The damn thing takes longer to display than the actual glitch.

09. At the top of the Timer List, between the title and channel number, it should also display the day and time of the next occurrence of that particular event. Similar to what it kind of does now with Manual and Weekly recordings, but with all frequency types and more details.

10. Move DISH On Demand and bring back the single button push to get to My Recordings.


----------



## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

I only asked for 19. 

Seriously, that's a thorough list of things that are still problems. Several I recognize as being around long before P408 so they won't be listed as one of P408's changes. Can you or anyone else help determine when these were introduced?


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> I only asked for 19.


LOL. I wanted to make sure I had some replacements for those considered not so important. :grin:

I suppose if I gave it a lot more thought I could probably come up with one or two more. And, I suspect others might be able to include more that are unique to their situation.



BobaBird said:


> Seriously, that's a thorough list of things that are still problems. Several I recognize as being around long before P408 so they won't be listed as one of P408's changes. Can you or anyone else help determine when these were introduced?


Sorry, the best that I could do is point out a couple that have been around a long time. The rest would be divided between those that happened shortly before NBR (P4.00) and those that happened after. As you can see from the list, the introduction of NBR makes up the majority of the problems.


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I had to look to be sure I had the same software being talked about. (p408) I do.

Of that list, I have perhaps only three of those problems. 

22 EPG sluggish. Yes, sometimes it really slows down. Seems better now that I reset. (See below)

25 FFW and REW not smooth. Yes, though has been this way since at least a couple of software revisions. 

23 Manual padding - I did not check but seem to remember this to be true for me also.

01 After updating EPG - Happened once, not even sure it was because of an EPG upgrade, but noticed the next day my timers were all gone. Again, happened once and on one unit only.

I have none of the other problems. I have three 508's, two reset every night on a timer and they never have a problem. The one I did not have on a timer had some lockups and weird things happen. I have since put it on a timer also, no more problems other than listed above on all three.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

I bet you have problem #11 (ie: "Originally Aired" is always 2155). Some problems have been around for a long time, such as problem #07, but in order to see problem #07 you have to have more than a couple recorded events. And, there's no getting around problem #19. 

My point is, I think if you look a little closer you would find that we have more in common than only the ones you listed.


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Blowgun,

11. I have seen that happen yes, but it is rare. Right now the correct dates are showing and almost always do. When I do see it, seems to happen on "The Tonight Show" or "The Late Show" Or Dave Letterman, etc.... It is so infrequent I don't consider it a problem and may be a guide issue not a receiver software issue.

07. I have 21hrs recorded of many programs. Just tried sorting. Going from date to name takes about 10 secs, from name to date is almost instant.

19. Perhaps I am not understanding what you are seeing. I just edited the Burn Notice timer from "new" to "all." Went back to the daily sched and it is there as it should be. Are you saying when you edit it shows a line through it and the red X? Mine does not after editing. (Edited back to "new" and still shows correctly)


15. Happens only if back to back same name programs, AND I set the timer to start 1min early while still recording from the same channel. Because I do not usually set to start 1min early if on the same channel, I don't see that problem.
Do you do the power button and/or card reset periodically?


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> 11. I have seen that happen yes, but it is rare. Right now the correct dates are showing and almost always do. When I do see it, seems to happen on "The Tonight Show" or "The Late Show" Or Dave Letterman, etc.... It is so infrequent I don't consider it a problem and may be a guide issue not a receiver software issue.


Try this:

1. Go to Live TV.
2. Press the Info button, note the date and episode information (if omitted, find a different show).
3. Press the Skip Back button once.
4. Check Info again.

Still think it's rare and might be a guide problem? 



tampa8 said:


> 07. I have 21hrs recorded of many programs. Just tried sorting. Going from date to name takes about 10 secs, from name to date is almost instant.


And, the problem only gets progressively worse the more events you have.



tampa8 said:


> 19. Perhaps I am not understanding what you are seeing. I just edited the Burn Notice timer from "new" to "all." Went back to the daily sched and it is there as it should be. Are you saying when you edit it shows a line through it and the red X? Mine does not after editing. (Edited back to "new" and still shows correctly)


All changes to a timer are record in the Daily Schedule. When you enter the Daily Schedule it defaults to showing you the current time, forward. If you edit a timer and then look at the Daily Schedule, what you changed has already passed. So you need to look in the past by pressing the up button a few times. There you will see what you have edited is shown as deleted. Ah, but you didn't really delete the timer did you. 



tampa8 said:


> 15. Happens only if back to back same name programs, AND I set the timer to start 1min early while still recording from the same channel. Because I do not usually set to start 1min early if on the same channel, I don't see that problem.


Fair enough, with stations today running early and late, you don't care if you record the entire event. I think most people would pad the recording, the receiver certainly defaults to adding padding. In which case, and always the case, if a show airs back to back, and you record the second event, it will have the first events description.



tampa8 said:


> Do you do the power button and/or card reset periodically?


Funny you should ask that, more later.

Periodically, no. Besides, one shouldn't have to do either if the firmware wouldn't make the receiver unstable. The receiver is more like a computer. However, unlike my computers which run for weeks at a time without a reboot, the satellite receiver should be power cycled at least once a day. That is a testament to it's firmware.

Here's what happened last night. I go to eat dinner, but before I leave, I do a manual guide update. About one hour later I come back to the receiver and some movie is on some channel. I press the Info button to see whats on, and then press the Info button to remove the OSD. Seems simple enough.

However, the screen goes black and the hard drive shuts off. Both LEDs on the front panel blink. The satellite acquisition screen (015) appears and goes through the 5 levels of wait. Once finished the screen is still black, there is no sound, but the banner at the top works.

I go into My Recordings and all the events are there. I pick one and playback appears normal. When I try to go directly to Live TV from that screen it complains that it can't. I cancel out and change channel to 9900, then press Menu Menu and do a Check Switch. All slots are green and when I cancel out of that screen back to Live TV, the screen is still black and there's no sound.

I go over to the front panel and do a soft reset. The LEDs go off and a second or two later blink. The screen remains black, but when the screen does become viewable again, the satellite acquisition has already reached 3 of 5. By the time it reaches 5 of 5 the screen goes black, the LEDs go off and flash again.

On the third attempt to acquisition the satellite, it goes through the 5 levels of wait and when that finishes, I see the "Congratulations" screen on channel 9900.

Clearly it was my fault and I really do mean that. Because I know from past experience that after a manual guide update the receiver can become unstable and should be power cycled. I just forgot to do it when I returned. I'll call that problem number 26. 

26. After a manual guide update it is best to power cycle the receiver as it can become unstable.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

_"the satellite receiver should be power cycled at least once a day. That is a testament to it's firmware."_

*That is a testament to badly written firmware!*


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Not sure if this is a bug or a feature. Could someone please try this:

1. Go to the Daily Schedule (ie: press DVR button three times).
2. Press the Select button on an Event that you know has two new recordable episodes in the current EPG.
3. Take note of the description for the Timer Event.
4. Select Timers to go into the Timer Schedule.
5. Use left button to move left and the down button to scroll past the second new recordable episode.
6. Select Cancel.
7. Again, take note of the description for the Event.

The event description is different as it now reflects the second recordable episode, even tho you never selected it in the Timer Schedule. It works in reverse by going back into the Timer Schedule, press the left button twice and press cancel. Now the description reflects the first recordable episode.

Personally, I wouldn't expect it to change. I would think that since you entered the timer from a specific place in the Daily Schedule, that the description would show the details for that particular Timer Event regardless of what you did in the Timer Schedule. Plus, when you were in the Timer Schedule, you never actually selected anything. You only moved the highlight bar and pressed cancel.

Maybe it's a feature thus allowing you to see what the details are of other episodes. But, you can already do that when you're in the Timer Schedule screen by actually selecting something under the highlight bar and doing it from there is far more convenient.

Seems more like a bug to me, what do y'all think, bug #27 or a feature?


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Blowgun, #19 - yes, see it now, but that is the first time I ever even went back on the list. As long as the current one shows correctly after editing, I guess it just doesn't matter.

#11 - yes again, I now see what you mean, however in the recorded list it shows correctly, even when hitting info. It is only when it is actually playing back (not live). So as long as I can see the correct info in the list of recorded events, not that much of problem. It is indeed a bug however.


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

I received an email from someone who does not belong to this forum site. He said #11 is not a bug. It was disabled during the Tivo dispute. Don't know if anything else is related to that.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

tampa8 said:


> I received an email from someone who does not belong to this forum site. He said #11 is not a bug. It was disabled during the TiVo dispute. Don't know if anything else is related to that.


You should think all the bugs been introduced in 4.xx by rush-job to avoid TiVo patent infringement.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> Blowgun, #19 - yes, see it now, but that is the first time I ever even went back on the list. As long as the current one shows correctly after editing, I guess it just doesn't matter.


Never the less, it's a bug. Which reminds me, I remembered another part to bug #06.



tampa8 said:


> #11 - yes again, I now see what you mean, however in the recorded list it shows correctly, even when hitting info. It is only when it is actually playing back (not live). So as long as I can see the correct info in the list of recorded events, not that much of problem. It is indeed a bug however.


Well, to me it is a big problem. I almost never watch anything LIVE, sort of the whole point of having a DVR.  I'm either chasing LIVE or watching something I recorded earlier and neither one allows for the correct information to be displayed without jumping through hoops.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

tampa8 said:


> I received an email from someone who does not belong to this forum site. He said #11 is not a bug. It was disabled during the Tivo dispute. Don't know if anything else is related to that.


Speaking to the e-mailer, that to me doesn't make any sense. Why corrupt only that specific information when the receiver is not in LIVE mode. Why even bother to show anything at all if that was the case.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

P Smith said:


> You should think all the bugs been introduced in 4.xx by rush-job to avoid TiVo patent infringement.


It's been 8 months since P4.08 was released, when are they going to rush out another one? 

BTW, I'm in contact with someone who is the manager for the 50x receivers. He would love to know what kind of issues the 508 receiver is having. While I haven't been able to get back to him, I'm hoping that I can submit all concerns that this thread can garner. At the moment we are up to 27 issues. Am I an eternal optimist? No. But I do hope that some of the problems will get addressed in the near future.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Old:

06. After updating the EPG, navigate several days ahead to locate an Event set to record and select it to go into the Daily Schedule. Pressing the "Today" button no longer takes you to the current date.

New:

06. After updating the EPG, navigate several days ahead to locate an Event set to record and select it to go into the Daily Schedule. Pressing the "Today" button no longer takes you to the current date. Additionally, move highlight back over Events list and the up button doesn't work. You will have to go down, before you can go up.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Blowgun said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seriously, am I the only one that finds the 508s P4.08 firmware to be a POS?
> 
> ...


What the manager answer to you ?


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Blowgun said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seriously, am I the only one that finds the 508s P4.08 firmware to be a POS?
> 
> ...





Blowgun said:


> It's been 8 months since P4.08 was released, *when are they going to rush out another one?*
> 
> BTW, *I'm in contact with someone who is the manager for the 50x receivers*. He would love to know what kind of issues the 508 receiver is having. While I haven't been able to get back to him, I'm hoping that I can submit all concerns that this thread can garner. At the moment we are up to 27 issues. Am I an eternal optimist? No. But I do hope that some of the problems will get addressed in the near future.


What the manager answer to your original question ?


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

P Smith said:


> What the manager answer to your original question ?


My original question was whether or not the 508 receivers had reached their EOL. Like I mentioned, I haven't been able to get back to him on these other issues.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I can tell you Dish is pushing out a lot of different beta FW versions for the model [508,510,501] last months.


----------



## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

"Why corrupt only that specific information when the receiver is not in LIVE mode. Why even bother to show anything at all if that was the case." I would say because live mode is not at the heart of the suit, playback is. 
Makes me think some of the issues are related to a hasty dismantling of some features that may indeed be associated with the Tivo suit. Blowgun has a great question, it is possible these units have reached the end, even more so if they have to re-engineer them based on the suit? 

Overall, the 508 still does what I need, with most of the problems pointed out not a real issue for me. With Mpeg4 just around the corner probably for everyone soon, I would guess it's just a matter of time.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Sorry for the delay.

I am rather confident it is nothing more than a bug. Besides, why corrupt it with nonsense and why only in those particular locations, it would have been a lot easier to make it blank system-wide. Also, the Event description information is only correct when the event wasn't part of recording the second of two identical shows with the same title (and apparently no padding). Bug #15.

I also don't believe that MPEG-4 is close to happening DISH wide any time soon. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that DISH has bigger things to deal with than upgrading 10's of thousands 5xx users to a HD receiver that many won't even use for that purpose. Although it seems to me also that the 5xx receivers have reached or about to reach their intended lifespan. OTOH, as they fail one by one, that's a different matter.

I haven't had a moment of free time until recently to do much with the list. If there aren't any more additions to the already 27 bugs and 10 requests, I should send the list off to DISH.


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

"upgrading *10's of thousands *5xx users" - count millions, it was VERY popular model.


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

True. I was going to use millions, but since I hadn't read anything lately on current users I decided on using a more conservative number. Regardless, I don't think DISH is too interested in that large of a swap out. People with 5xx receivers who want MPEG-4 now are going to have to make it happen themselves and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Personally I would like to retire the two 508 receivers I have and move to two 622+ receivers which would be connected to two non-passive HDMI splitters to feed HD to four rooms, but I can't afford it. So, at this time the best I can hope for is for DISH to fix the 5xx bugs. My hope is that the contributions made to this thread will eventually lead to that happening. <fingers crossed>


----------



## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I see more serious problem - TiVo lawsuit; without Dish licensing TiVo patents, the 'updated' crappy FW in DP501+ will never good as before .


----------



## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

You're right, there was some decent P3.xx firmware versions at one time for the 5.xx receivers. Things change for the worse when DISH hacked NBR for the 5.xx receivers in P4.00, and of course had to cater to TiVo. Rather than lingering on through even more lawsuits (now AT&T and Verizon), TiVo should die. Let people remember them as a company that once had innovative products.


----------

