# Dish HD Quality Improvement?



## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I could be completely imagining things, but don't think that I am.

I was feeling sick this afternoon (not like you needed to know that) but I took an afternoon nap. When I woke up, I swear the picture quality on every HD channel looks improved to me.

I was watching the NBA game on TNT, and the halftime show, and it was like looking through a window again... like in the old days.

Is it possible that Dish has been doing some tweaking today? Is it also possible that removal of the Voom 10 channels has allowed them to spread that bandwidth amongst the other channels for improved quality?

I have no insider information... just my own eyes... and I swear all the HD channels are looking really sharp tonight, sharper than I've seen them in a while.


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## CoolGui (Feb 9, 2006)

Could it be just the things you are watching? I don't know, most of it looks quite good to me, but it usually does. I usually notice quality issues when it looks like they were shot poorly or encoded badly.

I really never watch the sat local HDs, just the OTA version and those usually always looks best minus encoding issues. Like I notice NBC looks awesome but I see these blocky encoding issues all now and then. It's not the interlacing either, as I see them at 720p and my set has a good de-interlacer.

Anyway, to summarize, I can't confirm your assessment, but I don't see any problems


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The first thing that I noticed was the "pop" in the TNT halftime show studio. Usually the reds in the background have problems (red often is the first to go with overcompression)... but tonight everything is sharp and clear.

Normally picture quality is pretty good except for some issues with TNT and ESPN, especially the red colors as I noted sometimes in their studio background sets... but tonight everything is looking much sharper across the board.


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## MarcusInMD (Jan 7, 2005)

Sorry to say that most of the channels I have been watching are the same slightly below average HD quality that dish has been serving up for a while now.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

HDMe said:


> The first thing that I noticed was the "pop" in the TNT halftime show studio. Usually the reds in the background have problems (red often is the first to go with overcompression)... but tonight everything is sharp and clear.
> 
> Normally picture quality is pretty good except for some issues with TNT and ESPN, especially the red colors as I noted sometimes in their studio background sets... but tonight everything is looking much sharper across the board.


At 1st I thought you were wishful thinking, but just finished watching the Game, and even TNT looked good tonight, as well as several others, including A&E, you have to love Gene Simmons.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

GrumpyBear said:


> At 1st I thought you were wishful thinking, but just finished watching the Game, and even TNT looked good tonight, as well as several others, including A&E, you have to love Gene Simmons.


TNT was my first clue... Lately the NBA games have not been as good as when TNT first launched HD... but tonight they looked sharp.

I have to admit, while randomly scanning other HD channels... that I did find myself watching a bit of the Gene Simmons show. I have to give him some credit in that despite how he may come across attitude-wise sometimes as being insensitive, he often knows more of what he is doing that others give him credit.


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## Ressurrector (Jan 1, 2008)

HDMe said:


> I could be completely imagining things, but don't think that I am.
> 
> I was feeling sick this afternoon (not like you needed to know that) but I took an afternoon nap. When I woke up, I swear the picture quality on every HD channel looks improved to me.
> 
> ...


as crazy as it may seem to some your argument may have merit, here's how

By elimating voom yeah it free up some bandwidth NOW these guys have some really clever compression on channels that SEEMS to be fluid and flucuates and not static or "fixed" I notice this alot when I watch wrestling. Like when they walk off theramp with lots of LED lights behind them it gets blocky u can see the squares as in compression artifacts. BUT it cleans up other places.....this must be a smart compression system. When it needs to it is more or less....... I liken it to like having a computer in your car that could manually make you coast to conserve fuel randomly sometimes no more then a second YET the net effect is like 30 percent better gas milage. Make sense? so maybe its 30 percent more
bandwidth by "variable bit rate compression" the same savings we see in MP3's encoded with variable instead of fixed............ in this case voom is gone so the system needs not use its abilities


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## jsk (Dec 27, 2006)

E-mail [email protected] and let them know you are happy. I'm sure they'll be surprised to actually get a positive comment.


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## JustinHEMI05 (Sep 18, 2007)

MarcusInMD said:


> Sorry to say that most of the channels I have been watching are the same slightly below average HD quality that dish has been serving up for a while now.


Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I thought it best than to create a new thread for the same thing.

Here is my issue;

Last year about this time, I had DirecTV out in Phoenix. HD was spectacular.

I moved to a place that I couldn't have a dish in PA and got COMCRAP cable. I thought the HD was crap compared to D* since some channels blocked and pixilated sometimes when D* never did.

Then, I bought a house and just 30 minutes ago, had E* installed (couldn't do D* because of trees). I was excited because I thought finally, HDTV again. But to my dismay, the PQ on most of the HD channels is well below what I experienced with D* and COMCRAP... almost SD quality. I couldn't even watch MDM as it was blocked to hell and back and even froze at one point.

The installer checked all the sats and signals and they all we really good.

My question is...

Is there something wrong? Or is E* HD known to be below that of other providers?

Thanks

Justin

PS I have the 722 receiver.


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## JustinHEMI05 (Sep 18, 2007)

Well just messing around to learn the receiver, I found the point sat screen and all of the signals are less than half of what they were when he left. So I called and he is supposed to come check out what changed in the short time he left. I am hoping that will resolve my PQ issues.

Justin


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## IDRick (Feb 16, 2007)

JustinHEMI05 said:


> Well just messing around to learn the receiver, I found the point sat screen and all of the signals are less than half of what they were when he left. So I called and he is supposed to come check out what changed in the short time he left. I am hoping that will resolve my PQ issues.
> 
> Justin


You might also check the resolution parameter on the 722. Is it set for 1080i or something else. Some new subs have reported that the installer left the dvr set at 480i, which looks alot like SD...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Ressurrector said:


> as crazy as it may seem to some your argument may have merit, here's how
> By elimating voom yeah it free up some bandwidth NOW these guys have some really clever compression on channels that SEEMS to be fluid and flucuates and not static or "fixed" I notice this alot when I watch wrestling. Like when they walk off theramp with lots of LED lights behind them it gets blocky u can see the squares as in compression artifacts. BUT it cleans up other places.....this must be a smart compression system. When it needs to it is more or less....... I liken it to like having a computer in your car that could manually make you coast to conserve fuel randomly sometimes no more then a second YET the net effect is like 30 percent better gas milage. Make sense? so maybe its 30 percent more
> bandwidth by "variable bit rate compression" the same savings we see in MP3's encoded with variable instead of fixed............ in this case voom is gone so the system needs not use its abilities


Regarding freeing bandwidth and 'less compression':
- VOOM channels mostly occupied dedicated transponders
- variable rate is what Dish/DTV doing all the time in limits of ONE transponder.

Seen 'improvments' could happen if other programs in same mux [tpn] become mostly static
or
some engineer changed encoder profile in favor of TNT after his wife complain .


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## jpeckinp (Nov 6, 2006)

If you have picture then no mater how much you tweak the signal the picture won't get any better. You might get rid of macroblocking but the picture will not get any better.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jpeckinp said:


> If you have picture then no mater how much you tweak the signal the picture won't get any better.


All of the described symptoms can be attributed to a low signal.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

JustinHEMI05 said:


> Well just messing around to learn the receiver, I found the point sat screen and all of the signals are less than half of what they were when he left. So I called and he is supposed to come check out what changed in the short time he left. I am hoping that will resolve my PQ issues.
> 
> Justin


Normal signals on 110 and 119 on the modified signal meter should read in the high 50s/low 60s. 129, where much of the HD programming, has a weaker signal, and should read high 30s/low 40s.

Notice I said "modified meter". Dish did a software update that modifies the readings on the meter, dropping them down 30-35 points compared to the old meter. They also added an on-screen note that says "meter has been modified".

Most new receivers have old software, which may have the old meter readings, but during and after the activation process, the receiver will get updated to whatever the latest software is for that receiver, which will give it the modified (i.e., lower) signal strength meter. That could be the issue here.

On the other hand, if your signals are lower than what I wrote in the first paragraph, you need a dish realignment. The two most common reasons for this are 1) the dish being mounted on an unsupported fascia board, which will sag, and 2) the dish not being tightened properly.


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## JustinHEMI05 (Sep 18, 2007)

In response to all of the above;

Yes I did check the idiot stuff like resolution settings, all my gear, etc before becoming concerned. 

My signals are as described above with the updated software. So I suppose they are good. There are some really good channels, but the ones I expected to be really good are not. Such as the discovery channels, MDM, HGTV, History, Natgeo etc. There are more, but you get the point. 

Does this have to do with the MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2 that I have been trying to educate myself on? It seems E* is in the process of many upgrades, and perhaps some patients is in order? 

Justin


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Remember that MOST HD channels don't show HD content 24/7. Much of the content is upconverted SD widescreen, so it just isn't going to look that great no matter what.

Also, some of the channels are still on MPEG2 compression, though those remaining MPEG2 channels will be migrated to MPEG4 in the next couple of months, allowing them to better utilize the available bandwidth. (Folks with 811, 921, and 942 receivers active on their account are receiving calls to upgrade these receivers to MPEG4 equipment.)


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## JustinHEMI05 (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the info IIP. I will be patient then. 

Justin


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

JustinHEMI05 said:


> My signals are as described above with the updated software.


Could you offer specifics of what kind of numbers you're getting?


> Such as the discovery channels, MDM, HGTV, History, Natgeo etc. There are more, but you get the point.


Most of these offer SD upconverts that are pretty dismal. This has little to do with DISH Network.


> Does this have to do with the MPEG-4 vs MPEG-2 that I have been trying to educate myself on?


There are seven HD channels still in MPEG2. All of the above except Discovery HD Theater are MPEG4. Other MPEG2 channels include ESPN HD, TNT HD, HD Net, HD Net Movies, HBO HD and SHO HD


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## JustinHEMI05 (Sep 18, 2007)

harsh said:


> Could you offer specifics of what kind of numbers you're getting?Most of these offer SD upconverts that are pretty dismal. This has little to do with DISH Network.There are seven HD channels still in MPEG2. All of the above except Discovery HD Theater are MPEG4. Other MPEG2 channels include ESPN HD, TNT HD, HD Net, HD Net Movies, HBO HD and SHO HD


For 61.5, I range from the 30s to the 60s depending on the transponder.

For 110, I range from the high 50s to the mid 70s.

For 119, I am mostly in the 70s, with a few touching the low 80s.

Justin


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## Jeff_DML (Feb 12, 2008)

harsh said:


> Could you offer specifics of what kind of numbers you're getting?Most of these offer SD upconverts that are pretty dismal. This has little to do with DISH Network.There are seven HD channels still in MPEG2. All of the above except Discovery HD Theater are MPEG4. Other MPEG2 channels include ESPN HD, TNT HD, HD Net, HD Net Movies, HBO HD and SHO HD


interesing, HD theatre seems the worst quality of the HD channels. A lot of macro blocking during any bit of movement. Wonder if they are bitstarving it since it is still MPEG2.

overall I have been impressed with DISH HD quality. Not blueray and there are compression artifacts but I think most are acceptable. Also I dont see a drastic difference between OTA and the transcoded DISH versions. I have actually been preferring the dish version of my locals since they take up less space on my DVR.


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## himini (Feb 13, 2007)

I have Dish and my brother has Direct. Same TV (Panasonic plasma). DirectTV clearly has better picture quality at this point for both SD and HD programming. High motion sequences are particularly bad for Dish. And I have definitely not seen any PQ improvements in the last couple of months.


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## Hunter844 (Apr 26, 2007)

Jeff_DML said:


> interesing, HDnet theatre seems the worst quality of the HD channels. A lot of macro blocking during any bit of movement. Wonder if they are bitstarving it since it is still MPEG2.
> 
> DVR.


Weird that you say that.

On my current setup with the 811...my best channel by far is HDnet and HDnetmovies and the worst of the bunch is TNT followed by HD Theater which really struggle with fast motion content. I suppose having what amounts to a native MPEG2 receiver may have something to do with that. Some of this may be attributed to a poor signal as I've never really been impressed with it. Dude is supposed to come on Saturday to get me my new 211 and new dish.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

HDMe said:


> I could be completely imagining things, but don't think that I am.
> 
> I was feeling sick this afternoon (not like you needed to know that) but I took an afternoon nap. When I woke up, I swear the picture quality on every HD channel looks improved to me.
> 
> ...


Hope you're OK by now as I just came across this thread today. I agree most channels look good.

I've noticed the sound on the SD counterparts of premiums are louder than the HD channel. I have hearing loss in my right ear so I must turn the volume up because I can't hear the dialouge. Has anyone notice this? Should I E-mail Dish?


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

himini said:


> I have Dish and my brother has Direct. Same TV (Panasonic plasma). DirectTV clearly has better picture quality at this point for both SD and HD programming. High motion sequences are particularly bad for Dish. And I have definitely not seen any PQ improvements in the last couple of months.


Last nite I was watching the Olympic High diving finals on Universal HD. (also on a Panny Plasma). All looked fine unless there was rapid motion and/or water splashing....as you can imagine, high diving would tend to have both these attributes. (Duh!)

There was way too much macroblocking. At first, I thought I was watching an event from China and was able to excuse the less-than-perfect quality of the HD signal. But the event was actually from Indy and to see such a sloppy HD broadcast from NBC leads me to believe that E* is trying to squeeze out more bandwidth than they otherwise should. I sure hope the events from China look better.


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## scoobyxj (Apr 15, 2008)

IIP said:


> Normal signals on 110 and 119 on the modified signal meter should read in the high 50s/low 60s. 129, where much of the HD programming, has a weaker signal, and should read high 30s/low 40s.


Those signals strength numbers all depend on where you live. Here in Ohio the 119 Transponder 19 is usually up around 80. The 110 is in the high 60s low 70s on transponder 21, and the 129 T 21 is in the low 40s. You're doing good if you get over 45. (I can usually get up around 50 if I'm using a wing dish. My personal best has been a 54 on the 129.) All on the modified sig meter of coarse. The closer you are to a certain bird the higher the signal.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

moman19 said:


> But the event was actually from Indy and to see such a sloppy HD broadcast from NBC leads me to believe that E* is trying to squeeze out more bandwidth than they otherwise should. I sure hope the events from China look better.


Did you contemplate that the troubles might be with NBC and not DISH? In my own experience, I've seen shows like the Grammys on CBS via OTA that had more than their share of macro blocking and other artifacts.


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## himini (Feb 13, 2007)

moman19 said:


> Last nite I was watching the Olympic High diving finals on Universal HD. (also on a Panny Plasma). All looked fine unless there was rapid motion and/or water splashing....as you can imagine, high diving would tend to have both these attributes. (Duh!)
> 
> There was way too much macroblocking. At first, I thought I was watching an event from China and was able to excuse the less-than-perfect quality of the HD signal. But the event was actually from Indy and to see such a sloppy HD broadcast from NBC leads me to believe that E* is trying to squeeze out more bandwidth than they otherwise should. I sure hope the events from China look better.


I saw that same broadcast and the same macroblocking. Really awful. Dish must give UniversalHD a pretty minimal amount of bandwidth. Maybe NBC is more to blame, but I don't know.

Especially after the removal of Voom, I'm feeling pretty lousy lately about Dish in general. The exclusive HD content from Voom sort of made up for the slightly lower picture quality. No more.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Paul Secic said:


> I've noticed the sound on the SD counterparts of premiums are louder than the HD channel. I have hearing loss in my right ear so I must turn the volume up because I can't hear the dialouge. Has anyone notice this? Should I E-mail Dish?


This is pretty standard. The difference is in how the sound is encoded. The HD channels are Dolby Digital (some 2.0, others 5.1 surround), SD channels are usually PCM but a handfull of the premiums have Dolby Digital sometimes. OTA channels can be PCM or if they are digital OTA I've seen Dolby Digital 2.0, 4.0, and 5.1 surround.

The Dolby Digital are always lower than their PCM counterparts. Some of the Dolby Digitals are louder than others, my local OTA CBS channel is almost always my loudest for example.

Some TVs and some audio receivers have options to "compress" the sound. I think the Dish receiver also has an RF vs Line mode setting that may help somewhat too... but I've basically settled on just keeping my remote handy and knowing before I switch to certain channels to crank the sound down first.


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## moman19 (Oct 22, 2004)

harsh said:


> Did you contemplate that the troubles might be with NBC and not DISH? In my own experience, I've seen shows like the Grammys on CBS via OTA that had more than their share of macro blocking and other artifacts.


With no alternate source for comparison, I cannot tell who was at fault. Our voices need to be heard regarding this topic. Otherwise, the quality of HD will continue to slide downward as the broadcasters and service providers try to stuff more and more data down smaller and smaller pipes.

Why buy all this fancy, pricey, 1080i etc. hardware only to end up watching a high diver turn into a mosaic of assorted pixels? There's always U-Tube for that. :nono2:

.....and it's FREE!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

moman19 said:


> With no alternate source for comparison, I cannot tell who was at fault. Our voices need to be heard regarding this topic. Otherwise, the quality of HD will continue to slide downward as the broadcasters and service providers try to stuff more and more data down smaller and smaller pipes.
> 
> Why buy all this fancy, pricey, 1080i etc. hardware only to end up watching a high diver turn into a mosaic of assorted pixels? There's always U-Tube for that. :nono2:
> 
> .....and it's FREE!


You probably missed HD-Lite campaign last years. 
See how sat providers reacted - just *ignoring *us and doing more compression regardless new technology. Money is prevail.


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## kucharsk (Sep 20, 2006)

himini said:


> Especially after the removal of Voom, I'm feeling pretty lousy lately about Dish in general. The exclusive HD content from Voom sort of made up for the slightly lower picture quality. No more.


I wouldn't put this past NBC or the originating broadcaster (NBC often just passes along "pool" feeds of events.)

For example, similar things happened during NBC's broadcast of the 2004 Summer Games.


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