# HD OTA picture quality questions



## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm going to get an HD antenna for local OTA. Mainly because I want to get every ounce of picture quality I can. However I don't want to do this work and expense if it is not going to work like I hope.

My questions are this:

1. Will the 622 show/record only the OTA channels. No point in getting them to map down if I can't be 100% sure those are the ones I'm watching/recording. I don't want to be watching Dish's feed thinking it is the OTA feed.

2. Depending on what format the OTA broadcaster uses, will it be output in that resolution or will it be output in the resolution the Vip 622 wants to broadcast in or is set to use in the HD setup preference of the 622. The last thing I want is a local network broadcasting to my antenna at 720p, and my 622 changing it to 1080i.

Many thanks to those who know.

Mike


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## garys (Nov 4, 2005)

1. The OTA on a 622 is colored yellow in the guide and would have a different number after the dash, dish would be -00 and the OTA would be depending on which subchannel the particular station is broadcasting in your area. Mapping the Dish channels down will not conflict with the OTA's (plus the OTA has it's own tuner so any sat recording you would want to do would not conflict with any OTA recording although you can only record/watch one OTA channel at a time). If you do not want the Dish supplied locals mapped down you have to shut them off under the Local Channel Screen.

2. The output is dependent on what you have the 622 set at (the 622 does not pick it's own output as you set it or is what the receiver's default is if it was never set up), not at what the broadcast send the signal out at, it is the same as what the receiver does with the sat supplied channels. If the receiver is set to 1080i and the OTA is 720p, you have to change the setting in the preference.


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## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks for the info. 
Let me make sure I have it correct.

1. If I was to uncheck my locals in the 622 settings, I would be guaranteed to be recording only OTA channels?

1A. If I tell the 622 to record all episodes of a certain show, and I program it on the OTA line in the guide, will it only record it from the OTA or will it record it on the sat-provided local when it sees it there? 

2. So you are saying I have to change settings on the 622 to the resolution that matches what the channel is broadcasting in to avoid the box scaling the original feed? I have to do this with every show?
Mike


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

There is a setting in the OTA HD set up to prioitize OTA HD VS HDLIL from DIsh.

The HD output on your 622 is fixed at the setting you specify. That setting is usually the one that your display handles naturally. For instance, if you have a 720p plasma, set the 622 to output 720p. If you have a 1080i RP CRT display, set the 622 to 1080i.

There is speculation that Dish may program the 622 for native pass through, but as of now the output is static unless you go into the menu when you change channels and change it.


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## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks Jim,
I have a 1080p display, with an outboard Algolith Dragonfly scaler. So that means my TV is not native to any resolution, and any conversion from 480/720/1080 to 1080p should be done by my Dragonfly for optimum performance. So that means I either neet to change it each show, or wait for native passthrough.

Let me ask this:
1. Does any sat or cable provider offer native passthrough?

2. How do I find out what channels are broadcast in what resolution?

Michael


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

#1 -I have no idea, the back of my mind says I may have read that DirecTV might have a native pass through receiver.

#2 - Most channels are 1080i, but ABC, the ESPN's, FOX and , I believe, National Geographic are 720p.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

ABC, FOX & ESPN are 720p all the rest are 1080i.


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## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

Thanks guys. If anyone else knows of cable or sat company/box that allows native passthrough, it would be really helpful. 

So I assume that if it is SD 480i on the 622, it will still convert that too, huh?


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

480i won't work on my tv using hdmi. I have to set it at least to 480p to even get my tv to upscale it to 540p or 1080i.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Time Warner cable has some boxes that do native pass-through, actually a little more configurable than that.. The TV my father has can accept various input formats... so the HD receiver he has with Time Warner, he can check which resolutions his TV supports (480p, 720p, 1080i, etc) and the box will behave accordingly.


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## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm using a scaler, so I can go anything in, anything out. 

HDMe:
That features sounds good, but since my scaler can accept everything, I would check all the boxes. That's fine, but what I want is the box to choose the format that it is broadcast in, and then keep it that way. 

I know Directv has a feature where you check all the formats your TV can handle. I could check all of them, but the question is, will it change what it outputs as I surf between HDNet 1080, SpeedTV, 480i, ABC 720p, and Fox Sports, sometimes 480p or 720P.
Will the HR20 do this and will it be reflected on the front of the unit where it shows the resolution?
Mike


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## archer75 (Oct 13, 2006)

I see no difference in picture quality on my HD locals from OTA to the dish feed. They both look very good.


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## kckucera (Aug 1, 2005)

archer75 said:


> I see no difference in picture quality on my HD locals from OTA to the dish feed. They both look very good.


Yes I just upgraded from a 921 to a 622 and was surprised to see little difference betweeen OTA and Dish HD locals. Dish locals are a slight bit softer but not objectionable in HD and better in SD than my 921. Of course this all depends on the resolution of your monitor, in my case 720p native.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mikeap said:


> I'm using a scaler, so I can go anything in, anything out.


The ViP622 outputs in the one mode that you choose regardless of the content's original format.

DIRECTV's top-of-the-line HR20 DVR supports "native mode", but since _none_ of their 1080i content is 1920x1080, it all ends up getting scaled anyway. I would imagine that the same situation may exist in the CATV world.


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## mikeap (Jun 17, 2007)

So what exactly do you mean when you say Directv doesn't support true 1080i? And does this apply to Dish as well?

Also, does anyone know what resolution the Voom channels are broadcast in?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

mikeap said:


> So what exactly do you mean when you say Directv doesn't support true 1080i? And does this apply to Dish as well?
> 
> Also, does anyone know what resolution the Voom channels are broadcast in?


Most of DirecTV's HD channels are 1080X1280, not 1080X1920.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mikeap said:


> So what exactly do you mean when you say Directv doesn't support true 1080i? And does this apply to Dish as well?


DIRECTV sends its MPEG2 1080i content at 1280x1080 and their MPEG4 content at 1440x1080i.


> Also, does anyone know what resolution the Voom channels are broadcast in?


VOOM channels are reputed to be 1440x1080i.


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## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

mikeap said:


> I'm going to get an HD antenna for local OTA. Mainly because I want to get every ounce of picture quality I can. However I don't want to do this work and expense if it is not going to work like I hope.
> 
> Mike


Prepare to be underwhelmed. I went through a lot of effort to get my antenna set up and signal levels adjusted hoping to eliminate the pervasive artifacting that I notice in the dish HD signals. Unfortunately I don't see much of a difference. There is still a ton of artifacting in the OTA signal - especially during motion and changes in brightness.

It seems that most people on this forum are so geeked out about resolution that they rarely take into consideration compression quality. Personally I would take a lossless 720i signal over the current broadcast quality 1080i signals any day. Hell, even watching a standard DVD is better than a broadcast HD signal on certain content. (ie. King Kong, Lost, etc..)


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

brantlew said:


> Prepare to be underwhelmed. I went through a lot of effort to get my antenna set up and signal levels adjusted hoping to eliminate the pervasive artifacting that I notice in the dish HD signals. Unfortunately I don't see much of a difference. There is still a ton of artifacting in the OTA signal - especially during motion and changes in brightness.
> 
> It seems that most people on this forum are so geeked out about resolution that they rarely take into consideration compression quality. Personally I would take a lossless 720i signal over the current broadcast quality 1080i signals any day. Hell, even watching a standard DVD is better than a broadcast HD signal on certain content. (ie. King Kong, Lost, etc..)


The problem you are having is multi-path. E* is working on it. They tried a s/w update to fix it but it didn't work. Got this from a E* tech about it.

"The new test cut that has many fixes is being tested. It will be released as soon as all the tests are done. Please bear with us as we work hard to resolve the issues."


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## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

whatchel1 said:


> The problem you are having is multi-path.


No, I know the difference between digital artifacts caused by poor reception and signal reconstruction errors and the artifacts caused by MPEG compression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_artifact


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## loves2watch (Mar 27, 2006)

brantlew said:


> Prepare to be underwhelmed. I went through a lot of effort to get my antenna set up and signal levels adjusted hoping to eliminate the pervasive artifacting that I notice in the dish HD signals. Unfortunately I don't see much of a difference. There is still a ton of artifacting in the OTA signal - especially during motion and changes in brightness.
> 
> It seems that most people on this forum are so geeked out about resolution that they rarely take into consideration compression quality. Personally I would take a lossless 720i signal over the current broadcast quality 1080i signals any day. Hell, even watching a standard DVD is better than a broadcast HD signal on certain content. (ie. King Kong, Lost, etc..)


This artifacting you speak of must be your display. I have a 622 and a 942 and the OTA HD channels are pristine with no artifacting and I have been watching them as long as they have been available. OTA channels do not have as much compression and are therefore higher quality. I record from the OTA channels almost daily and get spectacular images.


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## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

loves2watch said:


> This artifacting you speak of must be your display.


I promise you it's not. It all depends on the show content. If you watch something like a late night talk show then I agree - the picture is spectacular. Without camera movement and lighting changes this type of content compresses magnificently and you get full fidelity on every frame. However pay close attention to something like the TV show Lost. Sure every time there is a still frame shot it looks magnificent, but once the zooms, pans, and motion starts up you begin to see the fuzziness around the edges - especially on the foliage. Same thing watching sports - especially when they start editing in the video effects and flashes you can see blockiness everywhere.


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## allargon (May 3, 2007)

loves2watch said:


> This artifacting you speak of must be your display. I have a 622 and a 942 and the OTA HD channels are pristine with no artifacting and I have been watching them as long as they have been available. OTA channels do not have as much compression and are therefore higher quality. I record from the OTA channels almost daily and get spectacular images.


I'm surprised the artifacts don't show up on your 53" CRT. (It's 1080i, right?) For the record, I noticed when I switched from HDMI back to component (ran out of HDMI jacks on my TV--will fix with a new receiver later this year), I saw fewer artifacts.

I've definitely seen the compression "crap" on my 57" 1080P DLP. Poor reception artifacts are night and day different from compression artifacts--all that smoothing, blurriness and rounding from compression looks nothing like the pixelation, etc. from poor reception.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

First off to answer the OPs questions.

1) Yes you can make it only record an OTA channel for a given show. I do it all the time.

2) What you are asking here is something commonly called here as native pass-through. It is also been called other things, but basically it is a feature the 622 currently does not have. There was some mention of it being added some time back in a Tech chat but that is all that has been mentioned or seen regarding this feature and the 622. Hopefully someday we will get it, for now the 622 does the scaling and outputs it to a resolution selected by the user.

Now on to the HD quality comments. My 2 cents.

HD compression quality is definitely a mixed bag. Has been since I have had it and continues to be. Some stuff looks simply amazing while other stuff looks not that great even when not panning. Also the technology used in the House to display the image makes a difference in what one sees or does not see. 

My experiences with OTA vs Dish HD. OTA definitely wins in my area but the Dish HD I would not consider unacceptable. In fact.. for the difference is slight for my configuration but I do still record my favorite shows using OTA when possible. I can see the difference, but if I had nothing to compare I would not be disappointed with my Dish HD locals. 

I am a LOST watcher and yes i could occasionally see some artifacting on both Dish HD and OTA as brantlew mentions. Sports is another thing that can really drive encoders nuts and if you want to see some real nasty artifacting... Try the American Idol final or anything with raining down confetti. These things combined with real time encoding, quality of the original, encoding effort done at the source etc all lead to what finally we see (From my understanding) and it definitely covers a wide gamet. Things have improved but in my opinion there is still more work to be done and I agree with brantlaw in terms of resolution. There always seems to be a big focus on resolution where in my opinion quality compression and bitrate is really the main factors in getting a quality picture. I would gladly give up some resolution for more bandwidth being given to improve the quality of the compression. Definitely a juggling act that all providers must do... 

One last comment.. I would not go as far as saying underwhelmed with my OTA. I am glad i have it. It gives me the option of recording three local streams and it does provide a PQ improvement through I would not say it is night and day but I would say I prefer OTA and use it with my favorite shows.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

There is nothing yet that handle confetti. The changes are just to fast for even constant I - frames.


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## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

whatchel1 said:


> There is nothing yet that handle confetti. The changes are just to fast for even constant I - frames.


Another pathological example is the scene on Planet Earth where they zoom out on a million migrating geese. This scene looks like crap on Discovery HD. There is a solution though. Watch the same scene on Blu Ray - looks great!

BTW: This is why download content may never fully supplant disk technology.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> There is nothing yet that handle confetti. The changes are just to fast for even constant I - frames.


Actually, the vectoring in MPEG4 goes part way to handling things that are all travelling in the same direction. What is impossible to handle is the "ant races" of an empty NTSC frequency.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> Actually, the vectoring in MPEG4 goes part way to handling things that are all travelling in the same direction. What is impossible to handle is the "ant races" of an empty NTSC frequency.


"PART WAY" not all the way.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> "PART WAY" not all the way.


So you have a better system?


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

harsh said:


> So you have a better system?


If I did I would sell it to HARRIS. :lol:


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Result of FCC's attempt to make a silk purse (HDTV) out of a sows ear (NTSC bandwidth).


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I still wish they would have gone back and changed the channel bandwidth assignments. They could still have gotten some freed bandwidth to sell out later... but after the changeover, if they had re-schemed the setup for even 8MHz instead of 6MHz per channel, they could have done even nicer OTA HD even with multicasting.

Shame they didn't take advantage of the entire digital revamp to put in more bandwidth as well.


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