# Switching from D* to E*- Questions



## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

I've posted some questions over at AVS, but can't quite find the information I'm looking for and I'm in dire need of help before the end of today. Sorry for the long post....

I recently saw on this forum where the Charleston/Huntington, WV Market HD is confirmed for 11/19/2008. I've been waiting for a carrier in my area to offer Local HD. I've been with D* for six years and have been promised over and over that our Market (#65) was coming soon, but is not on the list for this year. A friend talked to the CEO of our CBS affiliate, and he stated that all permits and contracts were signed, but D* did not feel it to be in their best interest to offer our Local HD at this time because of the low concentration of HD Receivers in this market.

Then I read about E* offering our Locals in HD as of 11/19 (hopefully). That was the information I had been looking for, so I ordered the E* TurboHD Bronze Package as it has all the channels I watch on a normal basis, and the monthly charge was much less than D* as I receive many channels I never watch under their package.

I went to my neighbor's house last night who just had E* installed. He has the ViP 722 HD DVR. He just purchased a new Panny 1080p Plasma. The HD looked really poor on his TV compared to what I'm used to on my Panny 720p Plasma through D*. I must say, other than him connecting with HDMI, that's all I knew of his setup. I'm certain his TV has not been calibrated, and I can't say for sure whether or not his receiver was set to the appropriate resolution (could have been 480p for all I know). I would assume it was set to the proper resolution as the E* Tech just left setting it up (I know, probably giving too much credit to the techs).

Questions:

1) I've read COUNTLESS threads in the past on D* vs. E* in terms of HD PQ. I've come to the conclusion that E* now falls behind D* on the PQ of HD. I'm not looking for a big battle of who is best. Sometimes that's in the eye of the beholder. I would like to know, from those that have seen both D* and E* HD on their TV, is there a HUGE difference either way, or is the HD PQ at least close? Again, from what I witnessed last night, it's not a question, D* is better from the factors I knew. But as mentioned above, I don't know how his equipment was setup and I may have had a poor setup to compare to my D* setup.

2) I've read that E* is going to add more HD channels. Will any of the new HD channels be put on the "Bronze" TurboHD package, or going forward, will I only have the HD channels that's in their current Bronze Package? If so, that's OK as I'm going to switch to E* because the Bronze has all the channels I watch on a normal basis.

Sorry this is so long, but if some could respond to this thread today, I'd greatly appreciate it. If I find out that it's certain that the E* HD is far inferior to the D* HD (very noticeably worse), then I'm going to cancel and stick with D* and wait for who knows how long for the Locals in my market.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

My guess is that the resolution is not set correctly on your friends receiver. The tech that did my upgrade did not change the setting just got it working and left. I see the PQ as the same. What I suggest you find a E* retailer that has TV's setup correctly and go look at it. Also, I might use that local retailer for the install they are sometimes more knowledgble than some of the subs but, sometimes it is luck of the draw either way.


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## CorpITGuy (Apr 12, 2007)

PQ on my Dish install is nearly as good as OTA from the broadcast networks. My wife can't tell the difference (but I can).

I think the PP is right re: your friend's resolution settings. It took me some time to get my tweaked up.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

DirecTV's 1080-sourced channels are retransmitted in full 1920x1080 resolution (some networks, like ESPN, ABC, Fox, and Disney properties, are sourced at 1280x720p). DirecTV puts 5 HD channels on each transponder.

Dish Network's 1080-sourced channels are down-rezzed to 1440x1080 resolution (to be fair, many HD cameras actually shoot in this resolution), and 7 HD channels are on each transponder.

The resolution issue isn't really that big a deal, especially given that a large number of HD cameras in use can only go up to 1440x1080 anyway. The real issue is the bitrate. Dish has to use lower bitrates to fit 7 channels per transponder, vs. 5 on DirecTV. That comes at a penalty, and where you see it is when there are scenes with lots of motion. Such scenes, like panning across the seats at a stadium, or scenes with lots of smoke, fire, or rain, are difficult to compress well, and the less bandwidth that is available (assuming the same compression scheme, which IS the same in this case: MPEG v4), the more macroblocking you'll see.

Static images and images with relatively little motion, such as "talking heads" on the news and such, compress better and look good. It's the high-motion scenes that make the difference, and here DirecTV has the advantage, and side by side, it is noticable, which shouldn't be much of a surprise. A Blu-Ray disc can sustain triple the bitrate that DirecTV can, and will have far less macroblocking than DirecTV, much less Dish. But it isn't practical to broadcast at such high bitrates; you'd be back to one channel per transponder like the analog days.

Will you notice a difference? That depends on the size and quality of the TV, how close you sit, and what kind of content you watch. Many people won't notice a difference. If you're a "demanding" user with a good TV, you will. Will it be enough to choose one over the other? That depends on other factors, like the programming available to you, and how you feel about the hardware and the pricing.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

So IIP, bottom line you are saying that "D" provides a better picture than "E"? I wonder if anyone from "E" can respond to this information. If this is true then when everything offered becomes equal why stay with the inferior picture? Of course equal includes programing as well as equipment and customer service.


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

inazsully said:


> So IIP, bottom line you are saying that "D" provides a better picture than "E"? I wonder if anyone from "E" can respond to this information. If this is true then when everything offered becomes equal why stay with the inferior picture? Of course equal includes programing as well as equipment and customer service.


We'll never have "Equal" in terms of packaging, pricing, customer service, equipment prices, etc. Although I love the D* HD package I currently have, I pay $86 a month for my Locals in HD, a bunch of SD channels I don't watch, and the HD Package where I only watch a few of the stations. My interest in E* is the fact that I can get my Locals in HD (by tomorrow if the confirmation is correct), I can get rid of all those channels that were worthless to me, which includes HD channels that I typically watch, all for $35. A big savings. I guess I can take a lesser PQ to drop my bill in half.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

tonybradley said:


> We'll never have "Equal" in terms of packaging, pricing, customer service, equipment prices, etc.


Exactly. The two services are similar, but they'll never be totally the same. And because there will be differences, some will always prefer one over the other.

BTW, I work for Dish (I co-own a subcontracting company that does Dish installs). I've worked for DirecTV in the past. I have years of experience with both systems. Both have their pluses and minuses, and have jumped ahead of their rival in one area or another over the years.

But on this issue, what I posted are the facts, and, yes, ultimately, DirecTV's PQ is better, though as I said, you'll notice it primarily on high-motion scenes. And, again, that doesn't mean that DirecTV's PQ is going to be "perfect"; DirecTV's bitrates are still significantly lower than Blu-Ray. But only FiOS from Verizon uses a similar bitrate for HD; Dish, Comcast, and Uverse are all lower.


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

IIP said:


> Exactly. The two services are similar, but they'll never be totally the same. And because there will be differences, some will always prefer one over the other.
> 
> BTW, I work for Dish (I co-own a subcontracting company that does Dish installs). I've worked for DirecTV in the past. I have years of experience with both systems. Both have their pluses and minuses, and have jumped ahead of their rival in one area or another over the years.
> 
> But on this issue, what I posted are the facts, and, yes, ultimately, DirecTV's PQ is better, though as I said, you'll notice it primarily on high-motion scenes. And, again, that doesn't mean that DirecTV's PQ is going to be "perfect"; DirecTV's bitrates are still significantly lower than Blu-Ray. But only FiOS from Verizon uses a similar bitrate for HD; Dish, Comcast, and Uverse are all lower.


I work for that ol' FIOS company, but unfortunately, it's not in my area and most likely won't be.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

For the millions that are not interested in the special sports packaging offered by "D" I would think that within the next 12 months both "D" and "E" will have close enough HD packaging to consider them equal. The next generation HD DVR's will be close enough also. Right Now they are both playing the "come with us and we'll give you some freebies game" and that will work to the customers benefit. Looking at both company's mid range HD package I see little difference in pricing. One difference in each's favor is "E" offers OTA with the 722 and "D" requires a separate piece of equipment (at a price), and "D" offers a very nice lighted remote. I just switched over to "E" after 15 years with "D" and I love the 722, but we'll see who's offering what in a couple of years.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

inazsully said:


> One difference in each's favor is "E" offers OTA with the 722 and "D" requires a separate piece of equipment (at a price), and "D" offers a very nice lighted remote.


In the last Tech Forum Summary - November 10th, 2008 thread we were told that Dish will offer the 722k with a OTA two tuner module available and will be offering a new Two Way Learning Remote. Things just keep progressing.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

I currently have both D* and E* and three Panasonic 1080P plasma tvs. Two TVs are side by side. The other 1080P set is side by side with a 768P
set. The difference in HD PQ is not very noticeable and I would not give the edge to either company.
I also have Fios and the Fios PQ is noticeably better than either D* or E*. I do watch both services side by side. I have the E* 722 and 622 DVRs and two D* HR21-700's.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

I would wait until the locals are active if they are that important to you.


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

BNUMM said:


> I would wait until the locals are active if they are that important to you.


I'm beginning to realize that. I did adjust my neighbor's TV's video settings and the PQ was far better. I can still easily see it's not as sharp as D*, but I could live with it (once they have Locals).


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

Hound said:


> I currently have both D* and E* and three Panasonic 1080P plasma tvs. Two TVs are side by side. The other 1080P set is side by side with a 768P
> set. The difference in HD PQ is not very noticeable and I would not give the edge to either company.
> I also have Fios and the Fios PQ is noticeably better than either D* or E*. I do watch both services side by side. I have the E* 722 and 622 DVRs and two D* HR21-700's.


I hope you have that setup for testing purposes only. LOL


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## dandoshan (Jul 15, 2006)

I read a recent review where the person was comparing Dish HD MPEG 4 or whatever off the new eastern sats. The bottom line as I recall was he was very impressed with the HD quality. Thought it was better than from D and equal to over the air. 

Don't recall where I found the review. Just dinging around prior to finally ordering Dish. Probably can google dish HD review or whatever and find it. Some person that is into this stuff and reviews equipment etc.


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## dandoshan (Jul 15, 2006)

I just want to add that all I have is a 2 1/2 year old Sony rear projection LCD 720P and I think the HD is great. I don't have anything to compare to but I am very satisfied. I hardly ever would watch shows like CSI Miami on SD as the picture never looked very good. Kind of dark etc. Same for other various shows. Now they look absolutely fabulous, at least to me.


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## snowcat (May 29, 2007)

tonybradley said:


> 2) I've read that E* is going to add more HD channels. Will any of the new HD channels be put on the "Bronze" TurboHD package, or going forward, will I only have the HD channels that's in their current Bronze Package? If so, that's OK as I'm going to switch to E* because the Bronze has all the channels I watch on a normal basis.


The HD channels in the Bronze package are channels that have an SD channel in the AT100 package. So if Nick-HD or Spike TV-HD were added, then they would go to the Bronze package.


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## girdnerg (May 17, 2007)

tonybradley said:


> I'm beginning to realize that. I did adjust my neighbor's TV's video settings and the PQ was far better. I can still easily see it's not as sharp as D*, but I could live with it (once they have Locals).


Did you verify what resolution the receiver was set to output - 480p, 720p, or 1080i?


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

girdnerg said:


> Did you verify what resolution the receiver was set to output - 480p, 720p, or 1080i?


Yes, that was correct. I posted above that I adjusted his Video settings and it was MUCH better. He set a Custom Setting with Picture and Contrast set to the max and had the Tint on the Red side. Once I adjusted them, it was a night and day difference. However, there is a noticeable quality difference between E* an D* HD. We both have a Panasonic Plasma calibrated the same way (except his is 1080p and mine is 720p). I can live with the E* Quality as they aren't bad, but D* is most definitely better.

I now have to wait and see if the 11/19 date for my Locals in HD on one of the above threads is accurate. I pushed my installation date out to 12/5 to see if my Locals go live. If not, I may not move from D*.


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## CorpITGuy (Apr 12, 2007)

Are OTA locals an option for you?


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## tonybradley (Sep 21, 2007)

CorpITGuy said:


> Are OTA locals an option for you?


Yes and No. I can pick up our local Fox and ABC even with an indoor antenna. With a DB8, I'm able to pick up NBC and CBS, but not with a good signal. I have so many mountains and trees between me and towers. I could probably help it out with a Preamp, the DB8 was my friends and we didn't have a preamp for our test. I'm sure I could make it work, but D* or E* would be so much more convenient.


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

tonybradley said:


> I have so many mountains and trees between me and towers. I could probably help it out with a Preamp, the DB8 was my friends and we didn't have a preamp for our test. I'm sure I could make it work, but D* or E* would be so much more convenient.[/QUOTE
> 
> Switching from D* to E* to get HD locals is well worth it, especially since your OTA is spotty. Overrides any PQ concerns. However, I would not switch until E* confirms the HD locals are available. Nothing worse than waiting for HD channels to get turned on. Could be waiting a long time. May never happen.


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