# 4k Receivers?



## kevinturcotte

My Onkyo A/V receiver has died, and I need to replace it. Now kinda seems like a bad time to get a new receiver though, with 4k resolution on the horizon. I'm wondering if there are any receivers out there that are capable of dealing with a 4k resolution though? Much rather purchase one of these and be future proof (For awhile, of course lol).


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## Davenlr

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3525-onk...d-home-cinema-receiver-with-4k-upscaling.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B004V8KWQO


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## kevinturcotte

Davenlr said:


> http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3525-onk...d-home-cinema-receiver-with-4k-upscaling.aspx
> http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B004V8KWQO


I don't want it to just upconvert, I want it to actually be able to process and output a 4k signal.


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## Davenlr

kevinturcotte said:


> I don't want it to just upconvert, I want it to actually be able to process and output a 4k signal.


Probably need to wait until they come out with a 4K monitor, and release specs, but HDMI switching is switching. If 4K is so great, it shouldnt need any processing, nor would I want to introduce anything of the sort in my path...


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## kevinturcotte

I guess processing was the wrong word. I want it to accept a native 4k signal and pass it unmolested to my 4k display (But also be able to downconvert to 1080p until I upgrade to a 4k Tv).


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## Davenlr

kevinturcotte said:


> I guess processing was the wrong word. I want it to accept a native 4k signal and pass it unmolested to my 4k display (But also be able to downconvert to 1080p until I upgrade to a 4k Tv).


I would submit, that given the past, the receiver/satellite box/cable box will be the one responsible for downconverting, and you should not need any external device to do any more than switching. I dont see DirecTv coming out with a receiver that outputs 4K with no way to output it at 1080 as well. It just doesnt play into their previous record on new equipment. Every box to date, has had backwards compatability at LEAST one step backwards, and usually two steps backwards.


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## kevinturcotte

I know, but I wouldn't want to get an A/V receiver that could ONLY output a 4k signal. Just let me select (My Tv supports x, y, and z). Then when I finally upgrade to a 4k Tv, I don't have to do out and buy ANOTHER A/V receiver for 4k resolution.


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## Davenlr

Then just make sure you get one that has pass-through switching.
Im not up on the specs for HDMI 1.4a, but if it can handle that resolution/bitrate, then you should be ok. Now if they are going to have to come out with a new HDMI spec for it, then nothing today will work.


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## sigma1914

Are you really purchasing electronics based on what "might" be an affordable technology in 4-5 years?


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## Davenlr

Might read up on this: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57364224-221/what-is-4k-next-generation-resolution-explained/

Current prices of the few available ones are in the $50K to $300K range


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## P Smith

I wouldn't say it wise idea to buy 4k AV box for future deployment. Absolutely immature idea.
You should slip on it a couple years before shell your money.


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## spartanstew

HDMI 1.4 supports 4K


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## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> I wouldn't say it wise idea to buy 4k AV box for future deployment. Absolutely immature idea.
> You should slip on it a couple years before shell your money.


4k content in any quantity and delivery of it....is probably 3+ years away. Many of us learned that first hand at CES 2012, as confirmed by at least 5 different manufacturers there.

So I'd agree it's premature to invest in hardware at this point.


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## CCarncross

hdtvfan0001 said:


> 4k content in any quantity and delivery of it....is probably 3+ years away. Many of us learned that first hand at CES 2012, as confirmed by at least 5 different manufacturers there.
> 
> So I'd agree it's premature to invest in hardware at this point.


Or even actually worry about buying something today, because it will probably be time for a new one by the time 4k is a reality for us to actually be getting it from broadcasters.

Heck there arent even that many 4k theaters in the country yet. When in Chicago I go to one called movieco...the PQ is fantastic.


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## kevinturcotte

The way everybody's been talking, I thought hardware might actually be out soon this year (And maybe already out). I realize there isn't any content there yet (Well, that we can get our hands on).
So just look for HDMI 1.4 ports and be done? Any differences between 1.4, 1.4a, and 1.4b?


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## Scott Kocourek

Who knows, you may actually need to replace the *new* A/V receiver before 4K is affordable.


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## kevinturcotte

Scott Kocourek said:


> Who knows, you may actually need to replace the *new* A/V receiver before 4K is affordable.


True. This one only lasted 2 years. Like to get more time out of the new one though!
Is there anything big looming on the horizon, tech wise, in say the next month or 2 that would be worth waiting for?


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## Scott Kocourek

kevinturcotte said:


> True. This one only lasted 2 years. Like to get more time out of the new one though!
> Is there anything big looming on the horizon, tech wise, in say the next month or 2 that would be worth waiting for?


What model Onkyo did you have? Maybe take it and get it repaired.


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## kevinturcotte

Scott Kocourek said:


> What model Onkyo did you have? Maybe take it and get it repaired.


It's the Onkyo TX-NR5007. It's already been repaired 3 times under warranty for the SAME problem, and now it's happened a 4th time. They said it's gonna be close to $500 to get it fixed. They said it's a known hardware issue, so it will probably keep happening.


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## CCarncross

kevinturcotte said:


> It's the Onkyo TX-NR5007. It's already been repaired 3 times under warranty for the SAME problem, and now it's happened a 4th time. They said it's gonna be close to $500 to get it fixed. They said it's a known hardware issue, so it will probably keep happening.


No more Onkyo for you I hope.


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## dmspen

Pioneer just released their new line of receivers. HDMI 1.4 all around, networked (except the very cheapest), built-in AirPlay, BlueTooth streaming (with adaptor), Good video conversion, DLNA 7 compliant.

Seems like all the stuff you can put in! They need to make these receivers with software capabilities. You should be able to download Apps for things like Pandora, Sirius, etc. It can't be that difficult. My TV does it so they should be able to.


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## celticpride

my onkyo 809 av receiver has some kind of 4k but i didnt pay much attention to it since no one broadcast in that format ,although i read somewhere that there is a 4k demo on you tube ,but i havent checked that out because even if ma av receiver puts out 4k i dont have a 4k tv so whats the point?


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## P Smith

You'll need to buy 4K TV set, now ! That's the point.


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## kevinturcotte

celticpride said:


> my onkyo 809 av receiver has some kind of 4k but i didnt pay much attention to it since no one broadcast in that format ,although i read somewhere that there is a 4k demo on you tube ,but i havent checked that out because even if ma av receiver puts out 4k i dont have a 4k tv so whats the point?


I think there are AVRs that can upconvert and output to 4k, but don't think there are any that can actually accept a native 4k signal.


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## MysteryMan

As I posted on another thread the difference between 4K and 1080p can only be seen on sets with a screen larger than 55" with the viewer seated close to the TV. Prices for today's 4k HDTVs range between $18,000.00 and $500,000.00. Combine that with high unemployment in a poor economy and limited 4K source material. I just don't see 4K making a big splash the way HD did when it was introduced.


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## kevinturcotte

MysteryMan said:


> As I posted on another thread the difference between 4K and 1080p can only be seen on sets with a screen larger than 55" with the viewer seated close to the TV. Prices for today's 4k HDTVs range between $18,000.00 and $500,000.00. Combine that with high unemployment in a poor economy and limited 4K source material. I just don't see 4K making a big splash the way HD did when it was introduced.


Yeah, but people want larger and larger screens. The cost will come down too, just like with everything. Give it about 10 years and you won't even be able to find a 1080p TV anymore, they'll all be 4k.


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## lparsons21

Some of Denon's line of AVRs are doing 4K, and I believe that is both upconversion and pass-through.

I think it starts at the 1913 model number and up.


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## kevinturcotte

lparsons21 said:


> Some of Denon's line of AVRs are doing 4K, and I believe that is both upconversion and pass-through.
> 
> I think it starts at the 1913 model number and up.


http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?pcatid=avsolutions%28denonna%29&catid=avreceivers%28denonna%29&catalog=denonna_us&pid=avr2113ci%28denonna%29 their 2113 model. $650 too?! I'd think 4k passthrough would be more expensive than that!! I'd still wait though. There are bound to be bugs and enhancements that will eventually get ironed out within a year or so.


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## MysteryMan

kevinturcotte said:


> Yeah, but people want larger and larger screens. The cost will come down too, just like with everything. Give it about 10 years and you won't even be able to find a 1080p TV anymore, they'll all be 4k.


While we differ on 4k's "immediate" future here's something you may be interested in. The Sony STR-DA5800ES A/V receiver. True 4K Output, 9.2 Surround Sound, 130 Watts x 9, up-scales HD movies to 4K quality. $2,100.00. I have been using Sony ES A/V receivers for years and can vouch for their quality and performence. I'm currently using their STR-DA5600ES A/V receiver.


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## kevinturcotte

MysteryMan said:


> While we differ on 4k's "immediate" future here's something you may be interested in. The Sony STR-DA5800ES A/V receiver. True 4K Output, 9.2 Surround Sound, 130 Watts x 9, up-scales HD movies to 4K quality. $2,100.00. I have been using Sony ES A/V receivers for years and can vouch for their quality and performence. I'm currently using their STR-DA5600ES A/V receiver.


4k certainly may flop, like 3D appears to be doing. Maybe HD was/is "Windows XP", 4k is/willbe "Vista" and 8k will be "Windows 7" lol


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## harsh

kevinturcotte said:


> I think there are AVRs that can upconvert and output to 4k, but don't think there are any that can actually accept a native 4k signal.


All of the Onkyo AVRs that retail for over $500 support 4k at some level.

What I would recommend is going cheap now and upgrading when you actually come into some 4k content. You can probably throw away the AVR you buy now and still break even investment wise without missing anything on audio performance.

Even then, it shouldn't kill you to do a little manual video switching in the early stages of your 4k TV viewing.

I'm holding out hope that we'll see a much better connector technology (HDMI connectors both suck and blow) come around before the next wave of technology hits.

If you absolutely cannot wait, I'd suggest looking into a refurbished Onkyo TX-NR71x series. I enjoy my TX-NR716 a lot.


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## harsh

kevinturcotte said:


> 4k certainly may flop, like 3D appears to be doing. Maybe HD was/is "Windows XP", 4k is/willbe "Vista" and 8k will be "Windows 7" lol


If 4k fails, it will be because it is too fat to fit. 8K will logically be even less likely to succeed.

At some point, consumers are going to recognize that the megapixel race isn't giving them significantly better rendition, just much, much larger files.


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## Cholly

kevinturcotte said:


> 4k certainly may flop, like 3D appears to be doing. Maybe HD was/is "Windows XP", 4k is/willbe "Vista" and 8k will be "Windows 7" lol


3D appears to be flopping for three reasons - the need for 3D TV receivers (and 3D Blu-ray players), the lack of 3D broadcasting by the major networks (reluctance to invest in 3D capable equipment), and the dearth of 3D movies of real value. The forthcoming general release of Avatar in 3D may buoy up the market for 3D receivers a bit. http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/avatar-blu-ray-3d-collectors-edition-retail/

Regarding 4K capability: I've been away from the broadcast industry for too many years, so I don't know whether the current ATSC broadcast system will handle 4K video. I'm guessing that the cost of upgrading equipment will dissuade both broadcasters and DVD producers from producing 4K content for years to come.

In the Yamaha family of AVR's, all the new models support 4K passthrough. The three lowest priced models don't perform upscaling, but all the others do.


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## lparsons21

kevinturcotte said:


> http://usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?pcatid=avsolutions%28denonna%29&catid=avreceivers%28denonna%29&catalog=denonna_us&pid=avr2113ci%28denonna%29 their 2113 model. $650 too?! I'd think 4k passthrough would be more expensive than that!! I'd still wait though. There are bound to be bugs and enhancements that will eventually get ironed out within a year or so.


yeah, the Denon line is pretty competitive. Now if they just sounded as good as the Harman Kardon line...


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## kevinturcotte

Cholly said:


> Regarding 4K capability: I've been away from the broadcast industry for too many years, so I don't know whether the current ATSC broadcast system will handle 4K video. I'm guessing that the cost of upgrading equipment will dissuade both broadcasters and DVD producers from producing 4K content for years to come.


A LOT of stations JUST FINALLY upgraded to HD (Some STILL haven't). I can't picture them upgrading again so soon. I can definitely see it on optical discs, and "cable" channels (Probably mainly premium channels first), but not OTA for awhile.


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## hdtvfan0001

CCarncross said:


> Or even actually worry about buying something today, because it will probably be time for a new one by the time 4k is a reality for us to actually be getting it from broadcasters.
> 
> Heck there arent even that many 4k theaters in the country yet. When in Chicago I go to one called movieco...the PQ is fantastic.


We actually have 2 of them here...both Regal Cinemas.

WOW what a great picture quality on "the big screen".


kevinturcotte said:


> A LOT of stations JUST FINALLY upgraded to HD (Some STILL haven't). I can't picture them upgrading again so soon. I can definitely see it on optical discs, and "cable" channels (Probably mainly premium channels first), but not OTA for awhile.


The conversion cost will be of the same scale as moving from SD to HD.


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## kevinturcotte

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We actually have 2 of them here...both Regal Cinemas.
> 
> WOW what a great pciture quality on "the big screen".
> 
> The conversion cost will be of the same scale as moving from SD to HD.


Yeah, but a LOT of them JUST paid for the upgrade. I can't picture them paying again so soon. Course, if they have their way, we'll all be paying $15 a month for just our local channels, so then they could afford it lol


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## hdtvfan0001

kevinturcotte said:


> Yeah, but a LOT of them JUST paid for the upgrade. I can't picture them paying again so soon. Course, if they have their way, we'll all be paying $15 a month for just our local channels, so then they could afford it lol


Actually....based on rising ticket prices over the past 1-2 years...

*I* likely paid for the upgrade at one of those theaters.


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## kevinturcotte

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually....based on rising ticket prices over the past 1-2 years...
> 
> *I* likely paid for the upgrade at one of those theaters.


I'm talking about local OTA channels.


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## hdtvfan0001

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm talking about local OTA channels.


OK...you missed my humor point on the topic at hand at that time...but your point is well taken too.


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## Davenlr

4K and 8K should make Hollywood happy. Take a long time to torrent a movie at 8K.


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## kevinturcotte

Davenlr said:


> 4K and 8K should make Hollywood happy. Take a long time to torrent a movie at 8K.


Not at school! We get 90 Mbps down and up in the library lol (Not that I'd pirate a movie, and certainly not using the school's internet)


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## P Smith

kevinturcotte said:


> I'm talking about local OTA channels.


There was a mention of using two 6 MHz channels for 4K and perhaps 8K with new compression algos and perhaps new modulation instead of 8VSB.


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## kevinturcotte

P Smith said:


> There was a mention of using two 6 MHz channels for 4K and perhaps 8K with new compression algos and perhaps new modulation instead of 8VSB.


Switching to MPEG-4 would help as well.


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## P Smith

kevinturcotte said:


> Switching to MPEG-4 would help as well.


Only today only for tests 4K transmitting as no new H.2XX standard developed not telling about equipment...

One 6 MHz channel with 8VSB modulation giving max rate 19.2 Mbps is not enough for 4x pixel's count with current H.264 or VC-1 compression.
Perhaps static picture or FR = 7.5 fps.


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## P Smith

Latest news, a new label is settled to "*Ultra HD*":


> On August 23, 2012, *UHDTV* was officially approved as a standard by the International Telecommunication Union (ITU), standardizing both 4K and 8K resolutions for the format in ITU-R Recommendation BT.2020 (Rec. 2020).[1][43]
> 
> On September 15, 2012, David Wood, Deputy Director of the EBU Technology and Development Department (who chairs the ITU working group that created Rec. 2020), told The Hollywood Reporter that Korea plans to begin test broadcasts of 4K UHDTV next year.[44][45][46] Wood also said that many broadcasters have the opinion that going from HDTV to 8K UHDTV is too much of a leap and that it would be better to start with 4K UHDTV.[44] In the same article Masakazu Iwaki, NHK Research senior manager, said that the NHK plan to go with 8K UHDTV is for economic reasons since directly going to 8K UHDTV would avoid an additional transition from 4K UHDTV to 8K UHDTV.[44]
> 
> On October 18, 2012, the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA) announced that it had been unanimously agreed on by a vote of the CEA's Board of Industry Leaders that the term *"Ultra High-Definition"*, or "*Ultra HD*", would be used for displays that have a resolution of at least 8 megapixels with a vertical resolution of at least 2,160 pixels and a horizontal resolution of at least 3,840 pixels.[5][47][48] The Ultra HD label also requires the display to have an aspect ratio of at least 16x9 and to have at least one digital input that can carry and present a native video signal of 3840x2160 without having to rely solely on a video scaler.[5][47][48] Sony announced that their 4K products will be marketed as "4K Ultra High-Definition (4K UHD)".[49]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-definition_television


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