# Name Based Recording



## Fastman

So, is name based recording really something in the future for existing receivers, or does dish just have us on a leash? For that matter, is it possible with the currant lineup of receivers?
Has anyone seen anything offical on this?


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## ShadowEKU

this should be a poll.... I vote leash tho


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## Mark Lamutt

It's coming...it's been seen working by more than one person.


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## Fastman

Mark Lamutt said:


> It's coming...it's been seen working by more than one person.


Now thats what i like to hear.  
Thanks Mark


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## Jacob S

Wonder when the beta tests will start rolling down and who will get them?


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## Mark Lamutt

The last I heard, the 522 will still be the first receiver to get it.


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## ShadowEKU

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


Mark Lamutt said:


> It's coming...it's been seen working by more than one person.


 :eek2: :eek2:


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## Ron Barry

Mark Lamutt said:


> The last I heard, the 522 will still be the first receiver to get it.


When did you hear this Mark. At one point it was stated that the 942 would be the first to get it, which could push out the release of this new technology.


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## Bob Haller

by the time they get it out and working most current boxes will be functionally obsolete 

942 is suppsed to be first


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## Hall

WeeJavaDude said:


> When did you hear this Mark. At one point it was stated that the 942 would be the first to get it, which could push out the release of this new technology.


 For a long time, all indications, including from Charlie Chat, was that the 522 would get it first. Last chat or maybe the one previous implied that the 942 would be the first to get it.


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## garypen

Hall said:


> For a long time, all indications, including from Charlie Chat, was that the 522 would get it first. Last chat or maybe the one previous implied that the 942 would be the first to get it.


In that case, it will probably be the 921.


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## Ron Barry

Hall said:


> For a long time, all indications, including from Charlie Chat, was that the 522 would get it first. Last chat or maybe the one previous implied that the 942 would be the first to get it.


Well that is why I asked Mark when. If it was recent, it might have flipped back to releasing it on 522 first. I was very suprised that it would be released on the 942 given the fact the ship date on this one most likely will slip to spring of next year.


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## Mark Lamutt

It wasn't terribly recent. I'll see what I can do next week to get some kind of information about it from the people that I know.


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## Psychic Horse

Any idea when? Already a bit too late, hope they have some unique features to make it stand out.


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## Ron Barry

Psychic Horse said:


> Any idea when? Already a bit too late, hope they have some unique features to make it stand out.


And why is it already a bit too late? I am sure a lot of people will welcome it when it arrives. I will be one of them.


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## garypen

I think he meant from a competitive standpoint.


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## Ron Barry

garypen said:


> I think he meant from a competitive standpoint.


Given that he is a D* sub, I was not suprised by the comment. Personally I feel when you throw a rock, you better have something to back it up.  In this case I don't see the point.

If the comment pointed to competitive advantage. I fully disagree. Little too late? Yes Dish is playing catch up in this area, but by no means is it a little too late. All indications I have seen do not show E* having lost the DVR race. And even if it did it would not be because of this one feature.

Yes NBR is a feature that the D* subs are getting to enjoy at this moment, but it is by no means little too late. This feature is not what makes or breaks the DVR market place. Content is still king in this market and the DVR is at this point a must have, however a DVR with Named based recording is not. (Waiting for the rocks to be thrown). I am talking about Joe Subscriber not the people on this board. 

NBR is a great feature to have in an NBR, however DVR for most people is still relatively new and most people don't have a clue what NBR gives them and the importance. Not even close to "Little too late" in my book. One feature not included in the DVR will not make many people jump from E* to D*. I just don't get the "Little too late" dig and given the source it sounds like a bit of "Nah na Nah Nah.. I got something you don't got". No foundation and makes not one bit of sense even in the competitive advantage framework.

Maybe if consumers were more informed at the differences in DVR technology it would, but most are not. The Tivo name brand has more impact in this area and would be a better choice to throw a rock.


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## Randy_B

Psychic Horse said:


> . . .Already a bit too late. . . .


 That would explain why Tivo has more subscribers than Dish PVRs. WAIT, they DON'T, it is Dish that has more PVR/DVR subscribers than anyone else.

I will certainly be glad when E* releases their NBR capability, but not having it it doesn't detract from my Dish DVR now.

NBR is very nice, but it is not flawless. No machine, not even Tivo, can catch something like Cold Case during NFL season based on NBR alone.


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## garypen

WeeJavaDude said:


> Given that he is a D* sub, I was not suprised by the comment. Personally I feel when you throw a rock, you better have something to back it up.  In this case I don't see the point.
> 
> If the comment pointed to competitive advantage. I fully disagree. Little too late? ...yadda yadda


Whoa. Calm down there big fella. The guy only said it was " a bit too late", not "too little too late". (You even quoted him in your original response.) Then he went on to say he hoped it had some "unique features to make it stand out".

What makes you say he's a DirecTV sub? To me, he sounded like a Dish sub, hoping for some cool new DVR features. That's all. No rocks. No trolling. Didn't need any backup. That's the way it sounded to me.


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## garypen

Randy_B said:


> That would explain why Tivo has more subscribers than Dish PVRs. WAIT, they DON'T, it is Dish that has more PVR/DVR subscribers than anyone else.


A. How do you know this? Is there a source for these numbers? (Just curious.)
B. Remember, Dish gives away their DVR's for free, like the little packs of tissues at a Japanese train stations. If you look in peoples' pockets there, you're gonna see the free tissues, not store-bought ones. The difference is the free ones work just as well as the store-bought ones, unlike Dish receivers. That's why there are so many DirecTivos, even if they're less in number that Dish's free tissues. (But, again, I'd love to see the actual numbers.)


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## maximum

garypen said:


> A. How do you know this? Is there a source for these numbers? (Just curious.)
> B. Remember, Dish gives away their DVR's for free, like the little packs of tissues at a Japanese train stations. If you look in peoples' pockets there, you're gonna see the free tissues, not store-bought ones. The difference is the free ones work just as well as the store-bought ones, unlike Dish receivers. That's why there are so many DirecTivos, even if they're less in number that Dish's free tissues. (But, again, I'd love to see the actual numbers.)


Last time I tried blowing my nose with my 522 it worked great :lol:


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## Ron Barry

garypen said:


> What makes you say he's a DirecTV sub? To me, he sounded like a Dish sub, hoping for some cool new DVR features. That's all. No rocks. No trolling. Didn't need any backup. That's the way it sounded to me.


Well maybe I miss read it. Wouldn't be the first time.  As to being a D* sub, I looked at his/her previous posts to try and figure out what he/her meant. Still don't get the bit too late comment, but I you could be right. To me it sounded like dig, but could be just a mis-read. Like i have said before, a post's intentions can sometime be mis-read (Usually when subtle humor is injected).

I will await a response from the originally poster to see what his point was before issuing any further rebuttals.


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## Ron Barry

garypen said:


> B. Remember, Dish gives away their DVR's for free, like the little packs of tissues at a Japanese train stations. If you look in peoples' pockets there, you're gonna see the free tissues, not store-bought ones. The difference is the free ones work just as well as the store-bought ones, unlike Dish receivers. That's why there are so many DirecTivos, even if they're less in number that Dish's free tissues. (But, again, I'd love to see the actual numbers.)


Ofcourse this is only under certain circumstances. I have payed for my 508s and won my 721. As to the DirectTivos, $99 bucks is pretty cheap for a two tuner DVR. I would almost consider that giving it away. As to who has the most DVRs out in the market. I would not believe any numbers given out. Those numbers are always optimistic and bloated.


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## Steve Mehs

Gary, Dish is the sales leader when it comes to DVRs (sad but true). They have sold/leased over one million units so far, probably close to 1.75-2.0 Million by now. The numbers are out there. But I wonder how many of those million(s) of DVRs are collecting dust in a closet somewhere. I know I have two that are. While I don't quite understand how Dish can call what they offer a DVR, they do have a lot of them out there, while TiVo may not have the numbers, it's been posted here and other places time and time again, for DishDVR owners who now have TiVo, there is no comparison.


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## Charise

Steve Mehs said:


> But I wonder how many of those million(s) of DVRs are collecting dust in a closet somewhere.


Thanks for your negative comment, Steve. I have a 508 and a 721, both of which function exceedingly well. Based on TIVO comments I have read on these boards, those owners have problems too, from how to access certain functions to things that don't work correctly.

For the prices I paid with no monthly user fees ever, free installation of everything I've ever gotten from E*, ease of use of all the hardware, and the quality of my viewing/using experience, I am truly happy with them. I can certainly understand why there are lots of Dish DVRs out there.


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## garypen

Steve Mehs said:


> Gary, Dish is the sales leader when it comes to DVRs (sad but true). They have sold/leased over one million units so far, probably close to 1.75-2.0 Million by now.


I didn't doubt it. Free is free. It's really no surprise. I was just wondering where to find the numbers.


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## Steve Mehs

If you’re happy with your 508s that’s great, but for me their functionality didn’t cut it. Besides being able to pause and rewind live TV, my VCR does pretty much a better job of recording programs. My VCRs never missed timers, they never froze up on me and they never messed up recording when it was time for daylight savings time. I paid $350 for two 508s (and $170 for 3 DirecTiVos), well actually one 508 and one 501. I originally had a 501 and it was replaced with a 508 due to my complaints about software version 168. I have no problem with the monthly fee for TiVo, because I get something unique with it. With the 508 there was no monthly fee, but it had the same functionality as a VCR. I have had a few problems with my TiVo, but nothing like with what I had with the 508s. I had them 18 months before I ditched them, and couldn’t be happier.


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## Steve Mehs

Gray, I don't have the time right now (sorry), to find it, but if you look at the footer of a press release or news story about Dish, especially one about a DVR, the numbers should be there in the 'about the company' portion.


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## Mike D-CO5

I really don't think the average Joe out there cares that much about namebased recording or even knows what it is. I think that Dish has approached the dvr like a digital vcr. It is easy to operate from the guide ; click answer a couple of questions and boom a timer is created. As far as manual timers it is just like a vcr.

I have had no problems with Dish's current crop of dvrs ; 501/508/510/721 Now the 921 was a little buggy with the timers but I am having No problems with the timers now and haven't had any problems for some time now. Even the manual ota timers work properly, which was one of the biggest complaints . I use manual timers more than from the guide for network shows I want. I create manual timer blocks worth 2-3 hours and I never miss anything of the show's end , no matter when it changes. It even breaks down the show with individual start points and information for each show. 

The only reason why I see name based recording being so important with Directv is that they have extremely slow guides and being able to just punch in the show you want , I am sure is much easier than looking for it on the guide. I have had both a stand alone tivo with Directv and Dish's dvrs and I perfer the Dish dvrs over the stand alone tivo. IF the Tivo could provide a FAST guide like Dish and namebased recording then it would be great. Wait a minute! When Dish does do namebased recording then we will have fast guides together with namebased recording. 

The question is WHEN will Dish do it ?


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## scooper

Steve - not EVERYBODY needs Tivo like capability  . If it works for you - great, but I'm fine with my DVR510 too. The "Channel/Time/duration" model works for me (at least 99% of the time, anyway), though it's not perfect.


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## stonecold

I will sit back and enjoy my NBR with my 7x00s Still the best dish dvr.


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## Jacob S

I think a fast EPG is a very important function for a DVR and the 721 has the fastest EPG of any receiver that I know of. For those that do not have NBR and never seen it then they do not know what they are missing therefore wouldnt be as upset as someone that may know what it is like to have NBR such as exTivo customers. Its just like having a DVR, once you have it you gotta have it. My DVR's do what I tell them to do but NBR will be a VERY nice software addition when it arrives.


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## Inaba

> Gary, Dish is the sales leader when it comes to DVRs (sad but true). They have sold/leased over one million units so far, probably close to 1.75-2.0 Million by now. The numbers are out there. But I wonder how many of those million(s) of DVRs are collecting dust in a closet somewhere. I know I have two that are. While I don't quite understand how Dish can call what they offer a DVR, they do have a lot of them out there, while TiVo may not have the numbers, it's been posted here and other places time and time again, for DishDVR owners who now have TiVo, there is no comparison.


Those numbers you quote include ANY unit Dish sells that has digital recording capability... that includes the JVC 1000's. They also ONLY add to those numbers, they never subtract. RMA a unit? You are now counted as having 2 units for number purposes. E*'s numbers are so ridiculously inflated as to be laughable. Now, if they would bring out numbers for current subscribers on actual DVR's, then we'd have something that's usable... but currently, the only numbers available in regards to Dish DVR's are totally useless from a comparison standpoint, as they aren't even marginally accurate.


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## garypen

Steve Mehs said:


> Gray, I don't have the time right now (sorry), to find it, but if you look at the footer of a press release or news story about Dish, especially one about a DVR, the numbers should be there in the 'about the company' portion.


OK for the Dish numbers. What about DirecTV numbers?


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## stonecold

ok lets look at this over all...

Dish inflates there numbers

So does DTV so does tivo so does Replay..

No matter what field of electronic applicences you deal with one thing for sure.... your going to inflate there numbers by including rma units and any other white lie they can push. Computer companies do it all the time. 

Why should the DVR market be any different.


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## Inaba

Well, the difference is, Tivo actually sells DVR's. Dish doesn't. Dish sells glorified VCR's. Without name based recording, it's not a true DVR. It's a VCR that records to a hard drive (or in the case of the JVC 1000's, to a tape).

Yes, we can go 'round and 'round about the definition of a DVR, and yes, I realize what DVR stands for... but the simple fact is, Dish's "DVR's" do nothing more than what a VCR can do, whereas a Tivo does much more than any VCR. Yes, a Dish "DVR" can record more shows than a tape based VCR, but the functionality is basically the same. Dish "DVR's" don't know when to start and end a show (they only know start a stop times, just like a VCR), they can't make suggestions, you can't download the raw feed to your computer, you can't view pictures over a network, you can't listen to MP3's, etc...

There's a whole list of CAN'Ts when dealing with Dish "DVR's" - once again, we have a relative issue. When compared to the competition, Dish DVR's are the worst "DVR" in terms of features and reliability. When compared to a 1970's VCR, they are great, don't get me wrong... but we need to compare current models to current models, and the Dish DVR's are last in line.


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## Capmeister

Question... does TiVO know when a news event (like a presidential speech or something) has gone into a show's normal time, and that something is changing?


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## Tyralak

Mark Lamutt said:


> The last I heard, the 522 will still be the first receiver to get it.


Great! I happen to have one.


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## Ron Barry

Inaba said:


> Well, the difference is, Tivo actually sells DVR's. Dish doesn't. Dish sells glorified VCR's. Without name based recording, it's not a true DVR. It's a VCR that records to a hard drive (or in the case of the JVC 1000's, to a tape).


This is your definition of a DVR. My guess is your are in the minority here. NBR is a great feature, but not having it does not disqualify you from the DVR club.



Inaba said:


> Yes, we can go 'round and 'round about the definition of a DVR, and yes, I realize what DVR stands for... but the simple fact is, Dish's "DVR's" do nothing more than what a VCR can do, whereas a Tivo does much more than any VCR. Yes, a Dish "DVR" can record more shows than a tape based VCR, but the functionality is basically the same. Dish "DVR's" don't know when to start and end a show (they only know start a stop times, just like a VCR), they can't make suggestions, you can't download the raw feed to your computer, you can't view pictures over a network, you can't listen to MP3's, etc...


You seem to contradict yourself here Inaba, You say that Dish's DVR's do nothing more than VCRs then go on to state they can record more shows than a VCR. They also allow you to search for programs that you want to tape, Faster Rewind and Forward wind cababilities, Allow you to protect portions of your recording media without having to pull the tape out, Some units have a PIP capability, Allow one an easier mechanism for time shifting and have a much large timer capability. Also, More easier mechanism to select the shows that you want to watch. No they don't have all the features of a TIVO or REPLY, It amazes me that anybody that has used both a Dish DVR and a VCR would call it a glorified VCR. I personally don't agree with this statement at all.



Inaba said:


> There's a whole list of CAN'Ts when dealing with Dish "DVR's" - once again, we have a relative issue. When compared to the competition, Dish DVR's are the worst "DVR" in terms of features and reliability. When compared to a 1970's VCR, they are great, don't get me wrong... but we need to compare current models to current models, and the Dish DVR's are last in line.


There are a number of other DVRs that people have mentioned in numerous threads that are a lot worse than Dish's DVRs. Some of the cable offerings for one, but I am sure you don't count those.

Yes Tivo's/Replys offer a number of nice home networking features. Not sure how many of them are in the DirecTV line, but there are some nice usability features. Tivo does a great job and they are a wonderful software company. I have always given props to them.

However, I have to disagree that the Dish DVR is just a glorified VCR. No it is not a TIVO or Reply, but it is also not a glorified VCR. It is somewhere in between and if fits the needs of most people looking to timeshift. A VCR would not and that is where I draw the line of distinction. You can draw yours where ever you like.

I am not arguing that Dish is not behind TIVO. I personally think they are. But Dish is a hardware company that does software. TIVO is a software company the licenses the technology. Big difference and I am not suprised that TIVO offers more in terms of functionality. However, because Dish's DVRs don't have all the bells and whistles of a TIVO/REPLAY does not mean they are not a DVR.

If you used your argument, You would have to also through in the DirecTV Tivos since they have limited functionality based on the standard TIVO/REPLAY.

When I choose my DVR I looked at TIVO in terms of features against a 508. The main reason I went with a 508 was to maximize my PQ and have a one box solution. I have said this before, Content is king. Due to JapanTV I am with Dish and my choices wast Dish DVR or Stand Alone Tivo/Reply.

You might be surprised I did not jump at a TIVO with its superior feature set, what a crazed lunatic I must be, but the fact is that I weighed all the features both offered me in relation to what I consider important and I went with a 508 and later a 721. I am happy with both and it serves me not as a glorified VCR but as Time shifting DVR. By the way, I am a techno head and I love a cool technical feature as much as the next nerd, but there are other reason why make choices.

As to numbers, Yes everyone bloats numbers including TIVO,REPLY,DTV and Dish. Microsoft quoted the number of Windows licenses at one time and they were something like twice the world population. The number was so out of wack it was laughable. It is called marketing and the sad fact is we will never really now the true numbers.


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## Charise

Inaba said:


> Dish sells glorified VCR's.
> Yes, we can go 'round and 'round about the definition of a DVR, and yes, I realize what DVR stands for... but the simple fact is, Dish's "DVR's" do nothing more than what a VCR can do, whereas a Tivo does much more than any VCR.


Actually, I can't "back-up" live TV on my VCRs with a one-touch button and catch back up to live if I choose. I can't start watching a recording on a VCR while the recording is still being made. On a VCR I can't decide mid-way through a program that I would like to save the whole thing. On a VCR I have no guide system, particularly one as fast as I get with E*. If I decide while watching a VHS tape to switch to another portion of the tape, I don't have an instantaneous way to get back to where I stopped watching like I do with "resume."

I recall many angry posts about the time of the Friends finale--seems Tivo isn't quite as smart as those people thought when they missed the very end! Of course I know it's subject to the information on the guide, not how "smart" Tivo is, but you get the point, I hope, that Tivo isn't perfect either.

It's more than a "glorified VCR." Otherwise I would still be using my 3 VCRs, which I haven't since the 721 replaced the last one in use.


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## Randy_B

garypen said:


> OK for the Dish numbers. What about DirecTV numbers?


 Gary, there is an analyst that puts out a publication called the Neimeyer Report that covers the whole PVR/DVR/interactive TV market. I'll look and see if I can find the link. You used to be able to subscribe to his newsletter for free, but I haven't seen one in quite a few months.


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## DonLandis

Lots of misinformation in this thread on TIVO as well as questions. I'll try to answer a few-

The TIVO is a different concept in watching programming. Let me just address the 921 and HDTIVO differences in usage since I own and use both.

The obvious difference is that the HDTIVO is DirecTV service and the 921 is DishNet Service. The rest is less obvious to those who don't own one. 
The HDTIVO has 2 OTA tuners and two sat tuners which makes the OTA function as easy as the sat function without regard to single tuner limitations like I have with the 921. This will never change as long as E* continues to make an HDTV DVR that has single OTA tuner.
The HDTIVO has much slower guides but once indoctrinated with the TIVO mindset you will discover that using the HDTIVO as a simple tuner is not the way to use it. Better to take some time and set up some favorites for seek and record, then when you have the time you can watch those shows you've recorded, including skip commercials. This is because TIVO has a mature bug free Name based recording process and program guide for the OTA channels. The 921 not only does not have a program guide for OTA yet (still in development) it also does not have Name based recording which are two separate issues yet one dependent on the other.
921- I was told by someone in development that the 921 will soon have the OTA guide info. They predicted it would be in beta mid September but I don't know whether that happened. Mark may or may not be part of that beta test period. The NBR software was said to be first installed on the 522 series and then moved to the 721 and the 921 was to be close to the end of the year depending on the OTA guides progress. This info was back in June on the tech chat and is quite dated now. Neither in the May Tech chat or the last one in August did they even mention a 942 receiver. The only info I have heard on the 942 is what people have posted here in this forum. 

Back to the HDTIVO differences- HDTIVO also supports hard drive expansion capability via 3rd party and open source software you can do it yourself. I have 3 hard drives now on my HDTIVO for a total of 107 hours of capacity and a system to swap hard drives for archiving. The 921 was planned for a 1394 FW port that would have supported archiving to DVHS but that feature was scrapped last April so as of Today, the only archiving you can do is with the HDTIVO. In addition, there are some people developing a system for porting HDTIVO HD program files to a computer and then back out to DVHS tape. Unlike hard drive expansion, TIVO does not support this level of Hack and considers it a breach of the security in the TIVO. I only mention this because it does show that a far greater 3rd party community is established with the HDTIVO than we have with the 921 at this time.

If I had to sum it up, I'd put it this way, The 921 works better as a simple live tuner with DVR capability than the HDTIVO, The HDTIVO offers better functionality on DVR use and archiving than the 921. 

Finally, I must admit that for a person who wants to watch both sat and OTA channels/ programs anytime he has the time and not just when those programs are on, The HDTIVO is a far superior way to do this. The 921 can achieve the end function but will push you through a huge bunch of hoops to accomplish it.


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## moviegoerman

DonLandis said:


> If I had to sum it up, I'd put it this way, The 921 works better as a simple live tuner with DVR capability than the HDTIVO, The HDTIVO offers better functionality on DVR use and archiving than the 921.
> 
> Finally, I must admit that for a person who wants to watch both sat and OTA channels/ programs anytime he has the time and not just when those programs are on, The HDTIVO is a far superior way to do this. The 921 can achieve the end function but will push you through a huge bunch of hoops to accomplish it.


Don, I have both the Tivo 10-250 and the Dish 921 too. I agree with your assessment. Both products have pros and cons. I do have a few other things to backup/add to your view point. I have found a few tricks that make browsing for Live shows easier to manage on the 10-250. I'm just glad it has a guide with 2 OTA tuners since most of my viewing is OTA content. Most of my viewing does come from recorded season passes (named based recordings). I have about 41 of them now. I spend much less time scheduling recordings and more time watching TV.

Overall, I'm much more happier with my 10-250 than my 921. The 10-250 is also more stable and less bugs and feature complete as compared to the 921. I spend more time watching my Tivo than I do my 921 because the 921 is so difficult to use. I only resort to my 921 when I need to record a 3rd or 4th show as I run out of tuners on my Tivo 10-250. Even then, I have to cross my fingers it records my show properly without the guide information. I'm very disappointed with the 921's implementation given it's hype over the last few years.


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## Charise

It just amazes me that the 10-250 owners spend so much time in the Dishnetwork DVR Discussion Forum posting comparisons between their 10-250s and their 921s.

Just for your information, if we want comparisons, we will look for reviews--and probably in the HD-TIVO Forum, not here. Your posts offer nothing to most of the forums in which you post and only serve to detract from the initial thread.

You are not convincing those of us who are happy with our products, and I am not intending to switch carriers for at least the near future. When I am, I will look in the DirecTV forums for information.


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## garypen

I found their reviews and experiences quite informing. I'm glad they were posted. What could be better than the thoughts, experiences, and opinions of such prolific and articulate members who have enjoyed extensive daily, real-life usage of both models?

They are far more valuable than so-called professional reviews. Just read the CNET and Dvorak reviews of the 921. They must have been on Quaaludes when they wrote them.


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## Charise

And how many times are we supposed to read them? I didn't say it wasn't valuable information, I said I didn't think it was necessary to post it in this forum.

I know from reading your posts that you are very unhappy with E* too and want to change when the foreign language channels in which you are interested are on D*. That's fine, but I get tired of constantly reading the glories of the HD-Tivo at every turn--even when it's not the topic of discussion.

Post it in the correct forum or here when people are asking for comparisons. No poster in this thread on when E* DVRs will get name-based recording asked for comparisons and none are needed.


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## moviegoerman

Charise said:


> It just amazes me that the 10-250 owners spend so much time in the Dishnetwork DVR Discussion Forum posting comparisons between their 10-250s and their 921s.
> 
> Just for your information, if we want comparisons, we will look for reviews--and probably in the HD-TIVO Forum, not here. Your posts offer nothing to most of the forums in which you post and only serve to detract from the initial thread.
> 
> You are not convincing those of us who are happy with our products, and I am not intending to switch carriers for at least the near future. When I am, I will look in the DirecTV forums for information.


You're crossing the line when you start to directly attack someone on the forum. I know others don't feel the same as you too. Feel free to review any of my previous posts and threads. If you need examples and names, then I'd be glad to provide them. You probably missed the posts where people that have a 921 and 10-250 agree. You must not be able to see how my posts direct reflect the topic of the conversation at hand. You must just be a very happy dish owner that only sees the world through one view with total disregard for other view points.

I spend plenty of time on many forums. I own many products. And I'll continue on the forums as long as I'm a user and owner. I really haven't seen much from your posts at all in the past. I don't know you. I don't know what receivers you own, etc. From a previous post you say you own a 508 and a 721. It seems you don't have anything to offer from your past posting history about a 921 or a 10-250. Most of the 10-250 owners you find on this forum are previous and/or current Dish owners. They are here to get Dish to change and realize that they are losing the race. They are here to help change for what they see as better. The idea of any forum is to SHARE ideas and opinions... The goal is to get the best use of the products we own or will purchase.

If your happy with Dish, then clap your hands! I used to be happy with my 721. It is a great product, but it doesn't have HD support. Many have thanked me for providing information about the two units and expressed they agree. Some have disagreed. I would never expect everyone to agree. People that look for the best will examine all the information available.

Reviews? I've read 921 reviews which said the OTA was great. I'm sure they never even tried to record an OTA program. They only discuss the sold feature list that isn't implemented to this day. Again, the purpose of this forum is to discuss the products that reviews will never provide.

This thread has turned into a Dish/Tivo comparisons because of the feature topic at hand. i.e. named based recording. Tivo has it. Dish is still years behind in this technology. So, yes, I'll put my two cents in like everyone else. I agreed with the previous poster and his assessment. What amazes me is the people that post opinions without having tried the 921 or the 10-250 HD DVRs because their love of their current receivers.

If someone wants name based recording that works today, then they would have to get a Tivo. Of course, they could wait a few more months or years for some variation of the feature to arrive at Dish (if ever). I'm still not sure how they can implement it because Tivo has patents on their name based recording technology that Dish could never implement.


----------



## Charise

I didn't "attack" anyone, so relax a bit. When E* DVRs get name-based recording doesn't have anything to do with a complete comparison between HD-Tivos and E* products--which is the exact point of my last 2 posts.

I know you spend lots of time on these forums, because I've read about 5 of your posts that are essentially the same--how much you prefer your HD-Tivo to your 921 and the reasons why. I think it's great that you can afford both and offer well-written critiques, which I have no problem believing are very helpful to anyone who is doing research in order to make a purchase. Your "reviews" are valuable in the HD-Tivo section when someone is doing their research--or in a thread where comparisons are requested.

The point is, many of us aren't prepared to spend the money required for new service or aren't looking for new service. It just isn't necessary to browbeat us constantly with this information.

Isn't it possible for those of us with like equipment to just discuss our needs or wants without continually being told we selected the "wrong" equipment?

I have read in other forums about problems with Tivos, but you don't then get a post saying, "Buy E*, it's what you need," for every single Tivo problem.

Name-based recording will be a nice addition to the features I already have. Obviously, it's not a deal-breaker for me, so why do you keep trying to tell me it should be?


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## Charise

Actually, Brian, you were attacking me, when I didn't attack you or Gary.

And this thread was not particularly about HD, so what difference does it make if I don't currently own a 921? Perhaps reading the entire thread would give you an idea of what's relevant.

Actually, when I referred to "reviews," I meant yours and your fellow Tivo owners on this board and others like it. I, too, feel you give a much better view of how they work than a "professional" reviewer who has used it for a week.


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## Ron Barry

moviegoerman said:


> You're crossing the line when you start to directly attack someone on the forum.


moviegoerman. First off I am not saying you caused this, but this thread has wonder a bit from the orginal intention. I surely haven't helped it myself. It has become a Tivo vs. Dish comparision and not one discussing when NBR will be available. I am not surprised given the title and this is usually the case whenever NBR is brought up. I personally jumped in when someone spewed out the fact that Dish's DVRs are not DVRs because they don't have NBR.

Charise is correct here in terms of wondering off topic. I know you were offering up your view and that i can respect. However, when I read yours and the poster before you that is when I official said to myself that we have gone off the deep end. We were already getting there as this thread begin to slide down the slipper slop the last 10 or so posts pushed us over.


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## garypen

Personally, I love NBR. I listen to Prairie Home Companion every Sunday.


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## moviegoerman

Charise said:


> I didn't "attack" anyone, so relax a bit.Isn't it possible for those of us with like equipment to just discuss our needs or wants without continually being told we selected the "wrong" equipment?
> {snip}
> I have read in other forums about problems with Tivos, but you don't then get a post saying, "Buy E*, it's what you need," for every single Tivo problem.
> 
> Name-based recording will be a nice addition to the features I already have. Obviously, it's not a deal-breaker for me, so why do you keep trying to tell me it should be?


Okay, Charise, I guess I mistake your sentences and tone when you are referring to me directly just after my post. i.e. "Your posts offer nothing to most of the forums in which you post and only serve to detract from the initial thread." or "You are not convincing those of us who are happy with our products, and I am not intending to switch carriers for at least the near future."

Your statements have nothing to do with the products are features. It only has to do with people. In particular you were referring to me since you were responding to my post and referring to my previous posts. That is why I took offense.

Name based recording is a nice feature. If it isn't a deal breaker for you and you don't need it, then you shouldn't care what others think about it. Feel free to skip the thread.

You won't see a Tivo forum recommending a Dish product because anyone that looks at both knows which is the better product. You don't see features that haven't been finished like OTA guide support on the Tivo forums. You don't see features on a Dish receiver that don't already exist on a Tivo receiver. i.e. Name Based Recording as it pertains to this thread.

Actually, if you read my posts my recommendations are soley based on the particular features that are lacking in the 921 as compared to the 10-250. If you don't have a need for either box, then you can gracefully skip over the post. I know everyone can't just pick up and switch providers. I haven't asked anyone to do that. I provide information and feedback more to prevent people from getting into the same 921 situation as me. I think if you were to spend $1000 for a 921 and found it didn't work, then you would make every opportunity to point out that the box still doesn't do what it was designed or sold to do. I bet you would be happy if someone saved you the money and effort.

All I did was to agree with someone else and you seemed to create a firestorm my direction. If people debate or have opinions about DVRs, then I'll gladly have a reasoned debate. This is the place for any General DVR conversation. If people start making individual claims like you did, then I'll won't sit idle by and ignore it. Sorry, for my comments if they are attacking you, but keep it on the subject and so will I.


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## moviegoerman

Charise said:


> Actually, Brian, you were attacking me, when I didn't attack you or Gary.
> 
> And this thread was not particularly about HD, so what difference does it make if I don't currently own a 921?
> {snip}
> Actually, when I referred to "reviews," I meant yours and your fellow Tivo owners on this board and others like it. I, too, feel you give a much better view of how they work than a "professional" reviewer who has used it for a week.


Again, sorry for attacking you, but I felt I was defending myself.

My viewpoint isn't about HD here. I can only speak about the receivers I own with respect to this thread. i.e. two that just happen to be HD receivers from both providers. The response I posted was related to previously posted comparision. If I had a penny for every post that wasn't directly related to the topic as the conversation evolves around the topic, then I would have paid for my 921. LOL... I felt I was going with the flow of the conversation and didn't add anything that wasn't already there.

Thank you for the compliment. I'm glad you do see value in our posts that we provide compared to "professional" reviewers. Sorry for the confusion, but your statement about reviewers seemed like you were talking about professional ones and ignoring any opionions of other posters that happen to just be on the Tivo side of things.


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## moviegoerman

WeeJavaDude said:


> moviegoerman. First off I am not saying you caused this, but this thread has wonder a bit from the orginal intention. I surely haven't helped it myself. It has become a Tivo vs. Dish comparision and not one discussing when NBR will be available. I am not surprised given the title and this is usually the case whenever NBR is brought up. I personally jumped in when someone spewed out the fact that Dish's DVRs are not DVRs because they don't have NBR.
> 
> Charise is correct here in terms of wondering off topic. I know you were offering up your view and that i can respect. However, when I read yours and the poster before you that is when I official said to myself that we have gone off the deep end. We were already getting there as this thread begin to slide down the slipper slop the last 10 or so posts pushed us over.


I felt like this thread already left the building a long time ago. I was letting you guys duke out the DVR/~DVR conversation and such... I surely didn't cause any drift that wasn't already there. I let it flow and only chimmed in after the next level of DVR comparision was made. If you want to find out where the thread went off topic, then you'll have to look way above my post.

If you want to keep it all about NBR, then it will be hard without discussing Tivo since Tivo invented it. The problem is people get very religious about certain things for one reason or the other. I always try to keep my posts in relation to the topic and/or thread conversation.

:backtotop


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## Ron Barry

moviegoerman said:


> I felt like this thread already left the building a long time ago. I was letting you guys duke out the DVR/~DVR conversation and such... I surely didn't cause any drift that wasn't already there. I let it flow and only chimmed in after the next level of DVR comparision was made. If you want to find out where the thread went off topic, then you'll have to look way above my post.
> 
> If you want to keep it all about NBR, then it will be hard without discussing Tivo since Tivo invented it. The problem is people get very religious about certain things for one reason or the other. I always try to keep my posts in relation to the topic and/or thread conversation.
> 
> :backtotop


Yeap... I alluded to the fact that the thread went off topic a while back and I did not help the situation. For the record, I was not suggesting you caused the drift, however the post above you did drift it a bit further down very slippery slop. Sometimes threads tend to wonder off and yes this can be a religious topic for sure. Combination for some uglyness to occur.

I feel there is nothing wrong with a little wondering from time to time, but it did start to become a bashing thread. Not sure who fired the first shot and I don't have the time to figure it out. Anyway here is my attempt to stear it back into more positive direction.

Given that there are a number of TIVO and Reply folks with NBR experience, what are some of the features you find most helpful so we can look for these features when and if we get NBR? What are some of the issues that NBR brings to the table. I ran accross one example today from a friend having to deal with the Apprentice's Sat show with extra 15 minutes. She indicated that even though she had a season pass it did not tape. THis is a tough use case to solve. My guess is the verbage was the same. Length the same, but actually content different.


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## moviegoerman

WeeJavaDude said:


> Given that there are a number of TIVO and Replay folks with NBR experience, what are some of the features you find most helpful so we can look for these features when and if we get NBR? What are some of the issues that NBR brings to the table?
> 
> I ran accross one example today from a friend having to deal with the Apprentice's Sat show with extra 15 minutes. She indicated that even though she had a season pass it did not tape. THis is a tough use case to solve. My guess is the verbage was the same. Length the same, but actually content different.


NBR is the only way I find the Tivo usable because its slow guide. It allows you to set and forget it. But, NBR is only one Tivo feature that helps you find and record programs. The Tivo feature name for NBR is "Season Passes". A season pass will allow you to set a recording for a particular show by name for a given channel. The following are the recording options you can set for each season pass:

1. Keep At Most: (All episodes, 5 episodes, 4 episodes, 3 episodes, 2 episodes, or 1 episode)
2. Show Type: (First run only, Repeats & first run, or All with duplicates)
3. Keep Until: (Space needed or Until I delete)
4. Start Recording: (On-time, 1 minute early, 2 minutes early, 3 minutes early, 4 minutes early, 5 minutes early or 10 minutes early)
5. Stop Recording: (On-time, 1 minute longer, 2 minutes longer, 3 minutes longer, 4 minutes longer, 5 minutes longer, 15 minutes longer, 30 minutes longer, 1 hour longer, 1.5 hours longer, 3 hours longer)

Using the season pass manager you can prioritize each of the passes. That means if there is a conflict then it will record the one with the higher priority first. You can also view upcoming episodes for each pass. I use that a lot to see shows for the weeks ahead, etc.

On the other side of NBR, Tivo uses what is called a "To Do List". That allows you to see what is about to be recorded in the future. It is similar to timers, but it includes all scheduled recordings (individual recordings, manual recordings, season passes, etc.). The To Do List is where I look to make sure I will get the shows I want recorded.

The To Do List also has a "View Recording History" mode that will show you every event that has occured and is about to occur. I use it primarly to find conflicts or shows that won't be recorded for one reason or the other. It will tell you if the show has already been recorded within the last 28 days. This feature helps prevent you from having to record the same program more than once. If you've already recorded it, then it keeps a list and won't record it again. It will also show me if a season pass won't be recorded because of a priority conflict or a individual recording. The history will also show you programs that might not be recorded because your about to run out of space.

The next level of support above NBR is the WishLists and Suggestions. This is where you add to the NBR support of season passes. You can configure WishLists for certain types of programs based upon (Actor, Director, Category, Keyword, or Title). Those WishList settings help the Tivo create suggestions to be recorded. It will search the guide for you and record the shows that match your criteria.

The third level of automatic scheduled recording is a Thumbs Up/Down model. You can tell it the programs you like and don't like. It uses that information and tracks the type of programs you prefer to create suggestions.

The suggestions can be automatically recorded for you or not. It is optional. They don't interferre with the season passes. They always get treated with a lower priority as compared to a season pass or individual recording, etc.

NBR is just one aspect of having the DVR select and automatically record programs for you. NBR will find the program you want by title, but it is also smart enough to only get the first run (no repeats). It is only as smart as the guide information. The guide is updated about once every two days. It contains 2 full weeks of information. That means you spend even less time making sure you have the programs you want recorded. The key for easier to use has been automatic scheduling features.

Hum... I didn't have a problem with Saturday's Apprentice broadcast, but I saw it on Thursday too. In terms of the extra time on the recording. It depends on the show. The guide information won't reflect any local changes to programming on that day. i.e. weather issues, etc. The guide also won't reflect any extended events like football on Sunday's, etc. The solution is to set an extended stop timer for the season pass. Make sure it will always record an extra 15 minutes if it is something that regularly happens or a show where the ending is very important.

I usually record plenty of shows back to back, so if I miss a few minutes on one, then it will be in the beginning of the next one. If it is important I'll record the following show just to make sure I never miss something. It's easy to delete it.

If you want to talk NBR, then you need to talk about scheduling and recording of programs in general. I equate the VCR to timers. I equate NBR to season passes on the Tivo. I equate the WishLists and Suggestions and Thumbs Up/Down on Tivo to the next generation of DVR features.

The Dish receivers are all timer based. This is why they have been compared more to a VCR in the above posts. Tivo goes to the next level. The question is how far can Dish take it without infringing on Tivo's patents.

My guess is they will do some type of automated title, keyword searching to find and record programs. Will it handle first runs vs. repeats or duplicates, or the 28 day rule, etc.? That's where I think they will have plenty of trouble implementing this feature to be the best it can be. The jury is still out on the verdict, but if I was on the Jury... Dish has a large battle to get this to the same level of functionality that already exists.

I would love my 921 and 721 to have that same level of functionalty. I feel more confident with the Tivo recording shows compared to when I first started using it. It is only as good as the guide. If you have a poor guide implementation, then NBR won't be that great either.

The OTA guide missing on the 921 brings into question for me how they will even get NBR to successfully work with it. Tivo has certain keyword markers in their guide information that Dish does not. That allows their recorder to seem smarter about when and how to record programs. If Dish uses the local affliates' PSIP data (guide info in the data stream), then I can see plenty of missed recordings or duplicate recordings because the guide information is not centrally located and controlled by Dish. Of course, that all depends on their OTA guide implentation.


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## boylehome

I would like to know a little about NBR. I don't have TIVO or the HD250. How does it work. Does it just give you the name of a program? If there is a time shift of the program, does it correct it? what else does it do? And as for the software from E*, how will it work on the dish receivers?


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## moviegoerman

boylehome said:


> I would like to know a little about NBR. I don't have TIVO or the HD250. How does it work. Does it just give you the name of a program? If there is a time shift of the program, does it correct it? what else does it do? And as for the software from E*, how will it work on the dish receivers?


Season Passes are added by selecting a program in the guide. It can also be selected by searching or browsing for any program in the guide. It can be added by pushing the record button on a LiveTV program you are watching. Some commercials will show you a green thumbs up and that will allow you to set a one time recording or a season pass for the show a.k.a. Tivomatic or iPreview. The process is very similar in concept to the way you would find a program and create a timer on Dish.

The season pass feature is tied to a channel and a program title. If the program shifts to different time slots in the guide, then a season pass will move and record it at the new date and time. This works for shows that tend to move around during the season. It will not correct programs that are broadcast differently from the guide. i.e. Delayed broadcasts because of previous shows or interruptions that extend the broadcast.

Season passes also allow you to only record the first time an episode is broadcast. Rebroadcasts that occur on later dates/times will be skipped if desired. The history tracking of the recorded shows also prevent the show from being recorded more than once in the last 28 days.

Passes have options that extend the time before and after the guide's timeslot date/time. This is simlar to the timer setup on the Dish receivers. The start/stop timeframe helps from missing important parts of a broadcast that might be delayed or interrupted.

Once the program is recorded it is displayed in the "Now Showing" list. This is the same type of list that you would see as your recorded shows on Dish. The list only displays the title of the program. You can easily display the guide information for each of the recorded shows.

After your season passes are setup, then there is very little management of timers and such when your show moves to a different time slot. There doesn't become a need to configure new timers each week for certain shows that change the length, date, or time in the guide.

I'm not sure how Dish will try to implement the NBR feature. Maybe, Mark would have more information on the design and/or implementation of this feature.


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## garypen

moviegoerman said:


> I'm not sure how Dish will try to implement the NBR feature. Maybe, Mark would have more information on the design and/or implementation of this feature.


I would imagine that Dish's implimentation of NBR will be very similar to the Gemstar "TVGuide OnScreen" guide found in many retail hard disk recorders and other video products by Panasonic, Philips, RCA, etc. After all, Dish recently entered into an agreement with Gemstar specifically for that technology.
Description
Demo

Unfortunately, it looks similar to Dish's current system of using the program name to create a timer-based recording. I don't think it has the same "smart" functions as Tivo.


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## Inaba

WeeJavaDude said:


> You seem to contradict yourself here Inaba, You say that Dish's DVR's do nothing more than VCRs then go on to state they can record more shows than a VCR. They also allow you to search for programs that you want to tape, Faster Rewind and Forward wind cababilities, Allow you to protect portions of your recording media without having to pull the tape out, Some units have a PIP capability, Allow one an easier mechanism for time shifting and have a much large timer capability.


I'm not sure where you are seeing contradictions.

Yes, I stated they have a larger recording capacity than a VCR... what's your point? They do... but that doesn't make them a DVR. It makes them a VCR with a really long tape. Faster Rewind and Forward capability? Not sure what this has to do with a DVR either. Protect recordings without pulling the tape out? Again, not sure what the difference is, other than the lack of hassel at pulling the tape out. A lot of VCRs have PIP capability... no go there.

So far, every feature you've mentioned is nothing more than the logical extension of VCR functionality. Same functionality, just extended.



> Also, More easier mechanism to select the shows that you want to watch. No they don't have all the features of a TIVO or REPLY, It amazes me that anybody that has used both a Dish DVR and a VCR would call it a glorified VCR. I personally don't agree with this statement at all.


Easier mechanism to select shows you want to watch? I'm going to assume you mean the EPG, yes? So my 301 is a DVR now? What about the Mitsubishi (and other brands) VCR that have an EPG that allow this same functionality? Are they DVRs too? No... they are VCR's... and in the case of the 301, not even that.

It amazes me that anyone who's used a Tivo, UTV or Replay would even jokingly call a Dish DVR a real DVR. Once you've used a real DVR, you'll understand why Dish's offerings are an utter joke.



> There are a number of other DVRs that people have mentioned in numerous threads that are a lot worse than Dish's DVRs. Some of the cable offerings for one, but I am sure you don't count those.


I will stand corrected here. I was indeed not counting the various low budget crapfests that are cable companies, and I will concede this point to you 100%. Dish DVR's DO most definitely rank above a lot of the cable industries proprietary DVR offerings.



> However, I have to disagree that the Dish DVR is just a glorified VCR. No it is not a TIVO or Reply, but it is also not a glorified VCR. It is somewhere in between and if fits the needs of most people looking to timeshift. A VCR would not and that is where I draw the line of distinction. You can draw yours where ever you like.


I agree, it's somewhere in between. However, every feature on the Dish DVR's is an extension of VCR functionality with little to zero innovation. Nothing of value was brought to the table with Dish, just the tired old functionality. Perhaps one could cede the DVR moniker to Dish, whereas "real DVRs" are PVRs? I tend to use those interchangably, and perhaps that's a failing on my part, I suppose. I view a DVR as something that I don't have to worry about - it takes care of business, and I watch my shows when I want to watch them. The Dish DVR's do not do this. They require babysitting, constant monitoring of the EPG, and tweaking of the timers... and god forbid you want to find a specific timer in your jumble of timers. Pray you don't delete the wrong one. Again, the Dish DVR's require babysitting, just like a VCR. Tivo, UTV, Replay do not require this babysitting or hand holding. That's what a DVR is, and what a VCR is not.



> I personally think they are. But Dish is a hardware company that does software. TIVO is a software company the licenses the technology. Big difference and I am not suprised that TIVO offers more in terms of functionality. However, because Dish's DVRs don't have all the bells and whistles of a TIVO/REPLAY does not mean they are not a DVR.


Umm.. Tivo developed their own hardware, too. Somehow, they were able to come up with spectacular hardware AND software, for millions of dollars less than Dish was able to come up with some buggy software, and unreliable hardware (Probably mostly buggy software, though. I suspect the hardware would behave a lot better with competent programmers). Tivo is definitely not just a software company, or at least they wern't... they are probably headed that way now adays, though.



> You might be surprised I did not jump at a TIVO with its superior feature set, what a crazed lunatic I must be, but the fact is that I weighed all the features both offered me in relation to what I consider important and I went with a 508 and later a 721. I am happy with both and it serves me not as a glorified VCR but as Time shifting DVR. By the way, I am a techno head and I love a cool technical feature as much as the next nerd, but there are other reason why make choices.


For the record, I own a 721 and use it daily (and babysit it, and hold it's hand in the night when it's scared. I leave a nightlight on for it, so the monsters under the bed don't get it) - I do this out of personal choice because, like you, there are other factors involved. For me, it's PQ and monthly cost, and my burning hatred for anything Hughes. So yes, I am a D* customer, and I use the 721... I've also has the pleasure of using Tivo, as well as the dubious pleasure of using the UTV. Frankly, I thought the UTV sucked (Slow guide, expensive) - that is until I bought my 721. I didn't realize how good I had it until I was dumped back into the stone age that is Dish DVR's. I had a JVC 1000 when they first came out, and was pretty pleased with it at the time - so I bought the 721 sight unseen, expecting the same quality and innovation... boy did that come back and bite me in the ass.

I basically spent $600 for a JVC 1000 with a super duper long tape and an extra tuner; I was expecting at least the same, if not better functionality than the dross that is Microsoft and their UTV.


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## garypen

Inaba said:


> So yes, I am a D* customer, and I use the 721...


Don't you mean E*?


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## Unthinkable

moviegoerman said:


> You won't see a Tivo forum recommending a Dish product because anyone that looks at both knows which is the better product.


When evaluating dvr's, things like price, dvr fees, featuresets, ease of use, speed, reliability, user interface, goofy sounds or lack thereof, fisher price looking remotes, UHF compatibility etc... all vary widely from person to person in terms of prioritizing whats most important at the end of the day and whats completely unnecessary/irrelevant. Whats better for you isn't necessarily better for me or anyone else on here. "TV Tommy" who wants to record every single god forsaken episode of Star Trek, Buffy, Angel, Alias, Friends, Sex In The City, Sopranos, South Park, etc... will likely value name-based-recording far more then the person who isn't obsessive compulsive about ever missing a single second of a single episode of a single show. Some folks look at TV as life or death. Others enjoy it for what it is and don't take it quite so seriously. I can see why power users as well as people with large families would think Tivo is the end all be-all, but its completely overkill for the casual subscriber who records 3 or 4 shows a day maximum and has no desires for ever ripping video to dvd or networking it to other tv's in his or her home. I've been quiet in this thread so far, but the overgeneralizations like the one above imo tend to get people worked up all the time here. Think of it this way. The guy living in Phoenix, AZ where the weather is beautiful year round very likely _doesn't_ have anywhere near the same need or desire for Four-Wheel Drive or All Wheel Drive on his car that someone living in Buffalo, NY likely will where snowfall and inclement weather can be horrendously compounded by the lake effects for a good part of the year. Different options for everyone out there. There is no one clear superior product thats perfect for the masses at large. Different needs and different options for everyone. I have no personal interest in NBR myself, but I'm glad its coming for all the subscribers who do value it nonetheless.


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## moviegoerman

Unthinkable said:


> Whats better for you isn't necessarily better for me or anyone else on here.
> {snip}
> Others enjoy it for what it is and don't take it quite so seriously. I can see why power users as well as people with large families would think Tivo is the end all be-all, but its completely overkill for the casual subscriber who records 3 or 4 shows a day maximum and has no desires for ever ripping video to dvd or networking it to other tv's in his or her home.
> {snip}
> I've been quiet in this thread so far, but the overgeneralizations like the one above imo tend to get people worked up all the time here.
> {snip}
> I have no personal interest in NBR myself, but I'm glad its coming for all the subscribers who do value it nonetheless.


I think if you ever look for a comparision, you do try to compare everything. Not just the features you like or don't like. I'm sure a generalization might raise some heated discussions because some feel strongly one way or the other. But, if you do compare everything, then you can make generalized statements about the entire product. Show me a review that doesn't compare them in general. They will always make a recommendation for the best product and tell you why so that you can best judge if it's the right product for you.

In fact, your argument really consists of many analogies and generalizations. My generalized statement is based on facts. Features that do exist in the Tivo as compared to the Dish receivers. Functions that are implemented in the 10-250 compared to functions that don't work in the 921. Other receivers surely will vary depending on your needs. However, if your on the bleeding edge, then yes, some of us... I think most of us on here want the most a DVR has to offer.

Just because some features aren't important to you, doesn't mean you can't suggest one is a more superior product or the other is more inferior. If you have no use for a particular feature, then yes, it would have no value to you. I can recommend the 10-250 over the 921 and I can give many reasons why.

To get back to the subject as it pertains to NBR... There's just no comparision. Tivo is at least 3 levels above Dish on this type of feature. I think I've been very detailed about the feature differences and why I feel Tivo is ahead of the game. Again, the jury is still out because Dish has yet to implement any form of NBR or any type of automatic scheduling of recordings.


----------



## Capmeister

As someone who's moving to HD-TIVO soon, and away from Dish, I found this very informative.


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## garypen

Unthinkable said:


> Some folks look at TV as life or death. Others enjoy it for what it is and don't take it quite so seriously. I can see why power users as well as people with large families would think Tivo is the end all be-all, but its completely overkill for the casual subscriber who records 3 or 4 shows a day maximum...


Umm...recording 3 or 4 shows per day _IS_ a lot of TV.


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## Ron Barry

Inaba said:


> I'm not sure where you are seeing contradictions.
> Yada ... Yada.... Yada...


We obviously have different opinions of what a DVR is and what a minimal set of features have. I started to reply to your comments but realized this is going right back down that slippery slop. You mentioned that you were amazed how people any person that has used a TIVO/REPLY can call a Dish DVR a DVR. Well I am amazed how people can get attached to a technology to the bridge of it becoming a holy cruisade. Been there done that with OS/2  I have released that it is not always about being the best and have the best feature set. I will just leave it as we disagree here, and I have a 721 and a 508.

Now.. back on to the topic....

Minimal set of functionality I see the Dish DVRs adding with NBR would be.

1) Ability to adjust to changes in the EPG without user intervention. 
2) Ability put some key words in and have the DVR find programs to record from it. 
3) Ability to prioritize Events. 
4) Ability to create a Named Event based on a selected event in the EPG. This would also allow you to set a flag to record shows similar to the one selected. Fuzzy filter perhaps?

I am sure there are some more.. but those are the minimum features based on Moviegoerman's excellent post on this technology and what has been in my mind.


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## malligood

Steve Mehs said:


> Gary, Dish is the sales leader when it comes to DVRs (sad but true). They have sold/leased over one million units so far, probably close to 1.75-2.0 Million by now. The numbers are out there. But I wonder how many of those million(s) of DVRs are collecting dust in a closet somewhere. I know I have two that are. While I don't quite understand how Dish can call what they offer a DVR, they do have a lot of them out there, while TiVo may not have the numbers, it's been posted here and other places time and time again, for DishDVR owners who now have TiVo, there is no comparison.


Steve,

If you happen to have a 721 collecting dust, I would be more than happy to dust it off.


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## Randy_B

boylehome said:


> I If there is a time shift of the program, does it correct it? what else does it do?


 No matter how great Tivo, Replay and NBR is, it is only as good as the guide. Dish NBR when it comes out will be subject to the same rule. For example, none of the NBR DVRs on the market will ever catch the full showing of 60 minutes or Cold Case on Sun evenings during NFL season. Never. NBR is a very nice feature and toolset, it is not foolproof as some Tivo'istas would have you believe.


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## garypen

WeeJavaDude said:


> Well I am amazed how people can get attached to a technology to the bridge of it becoming a holy cruisade.


You and me both, bro. Kinda nutty.


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## Unthinkable

moviegoerman said:


> In fact, your argument really consists of many analogies and generalizations. My generalized statement is based on facts. Features that do exist in the Tivo as compared to the Dish receivers. Functions that are implemented in the 10-250 compared to functions that don't work in the 921. Other receivers surely will vary depending on your needs. However, if your on the bleeding edge, then yes, some of us... I think most of us on here want the most a DVR has to offer.


I provided you with real life examples illustrating that there is no one perfect option for everyone and you still can't accept that. You know damn well that whats critically important in a DVR to a single person who watches say 14-21 hours of TV a week is likely going to be very different criteria from a family of 8 who watches TV all day/night long in deciding whats most important in a DVR. Your statement is based strictly on personal opinion and nothing more. Facts and features to you maybe, but totally irrelevant and meaningless to the subscribers who could care less whether it does anything more then just record their shows when its supposed to in their entirety without issues as well as pause live TV. Bottom line, the primary purpose of a DVR is to record shows and the Dish DVR's do this extremely well as currently configured. Its a _huge_ feature to me that my 721 does this perfectly well with no additional montly service fee _without providing a bunch of bloated extras I'd never care to use myself_. In the end that single feature is most paramount and makes it the superior DVR to me. Not the receiver that has thumbs up and thumbs down buttons so I can tell it I liked particular movies or shows so it can endlessly record a bunch of nonsense I'm going to delete seconds later in the futile hopes that its smart enough to match up precisely what I like and don't like based on small pieces of information here and there. Not the receiver with a Mr. Peanut shaped remote that makes Finding Nemo bubble popping noises everytime I push buttons strictly to entertain the kids.

You yourself are generalizing further in stating "most of us on here want..." 
That would be the same thing as me implying that Tivos appeal primarily to the anal retentive OCD personality types while the Dish DVR's appeal more to people who are a lot more relaxed in their approach to watching TV. 
Do us a kind favor and try to avoid speaking for everyone else as though you are the definitive source on whats superior and what isn't as someone who can telepathically read into everyone elses minds if you would. Its this exact elitist, holier-then-thou, Mac vs. Windows prevailing know-it-all attitude that comes up everytime tivo vs. dish dvr discussions are posted which angers so many folks and spins these threads towards flame wars time in and time out.



> Just because some features aren't important to you, doesn't mean you can't suggest one is a more superior product or the other is more inferior. If you have no use for a particular feature, then yes, it would have no value to you. I can recommend the 10-250 over the 921 and I can give many reasons why.


You can suggest it all you want, but please don't force this opinionated contention down others throats as though everyone else is wrong in not subscribing to a Tivo cures cancer and all world ills, prevents global terrorism, saves baby seals from being clubbed, and helps restore the protective ozone layer collective mentality. You love it and it works perfectly for you. Great. Glad to hear it, really. Lets leave it at that and keep our eyes open to the notions that its fine for some and not so fine for others. Superior is all relative. Others may argue superior is the one that gives you precisely what you want at a significantly lower monthly cost without a bunch of bloated unnecessary "features and extras" that aren't really desirable features and extras. There is a lot to be said for streamlined simple elegance. Ask Honda and Toyota about that sometime and take note of how many times the Accord makes the Ten Best List for X years in a row.


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## Unthinkable

garypen said:


> Umm...recording 3 or 4 shows per day _IS_ a lot of TV.


Its all relative Gary. Tell that to Bob Haller's wife who used to max out the 721 hard drive with cooking show after cooking show on a _daily_ basis. To her, 3 or 4 shows per day is just getting warmed up.


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## Unthinkable

Randy_B said:


> No matter how great Tivo, Replay and NBR is, it is only as good as the guide. Dish NBR when it comes out will be subject to the same rule. For example, none of the NBR DVRs on the market will ever catch the full showing of 60 minutes or Cold Case on Sun evenings during NFL season. Never. NBR is a very nice feature and toolset, it is not foolproof as some Tivo'istas would have you believe.


Well said and its worth repeating a few times everytime this crazy debate comes up.


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## Ron Barry

Randy_B said:


> No matter how great Tivo, Replay and NBR is, it is only as good as the guide. Dish NBR when it comes out will be subject to the same rule. For example, none of the NBR DVRs on the market will ever catch the full showing of 60 minutes or Cold Case on Sun evenings during NFL season. Never. NBR is a very nice feature and toolset, it is not foolproof as some Tivo'istas would have you believe.


This is true Randy, What is really needed is a way for the content stream to tell the DVR when it is down with the show. Kinda of a "I am Done" event so that DVRs can be more responsive to a changing environment. This would be similar to indicating when a commercial segement is coming.

My guess is that this will never happen, because the content providers are not big fans of DVRs. This however would fix this issue and allow DVRs to be more dynamic in terms of end recording times.


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## maximum

I've been skimming the debate over Dish DVR vs Tivo (don't have time to read each extended argument). From what I've read, I have to side with WeeJavaDue -- not just because we both have Duke as our avatars 

To say that a Dish DVR is just glorified VCR is like saying a CD player is just a glorified phonograph. 

VCR stands for Video Cassette Recorder which records analog signals on removable tapes.
DVR stands for Digital Video Recorder which records digital signals on a hard drive. Way big difference here.

Just because Tivo DVRs have more features does not make it a "Real DVR". It just means Tivo has more features, period.

Now excuse me while I shut down my PC. It has MS Office and Age Of Kings installed . . . does yours? If not it must not be a "REAL PC"


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## moviegoerman

:balloons:
And we float away again...



Unthinkable said:


> I provided you with real life examples illustrating that there is no one perfect option for everyone and you still can't accept that.


I have no problem accepting that you happy with your current receiver and environment. I've never said otherwise. If people like what they have, then there isn't anything to discuss. Clap your hands if you know it... :joy:



Unthinkable said:


> You yourself are generalizing further in stating "most of us on here want..."
> That would be the same thing as me implying that Tivos appeal primarily to the anal retentive OCD personality types while the Dish DVR's appeal more to people who are a lot more relaxed in their approach to watching TV.


You might be confusing my statement and taking it out of context again. It was about most of us on this forum wanting to have the best technology. It has nothing to do with Tivo. If we didn't care about the this type of technology, then we wouldn't be here talking about it.



Unthinkable said:


> Do us a kind favor and try to avoid speaking for everyone else as though you are the definitive source on whats superior and what isn't as someone who can telepathically read into everyone elses minds if you would. Its this exact elitist, holier-then-thou, Mac vs. Windows prevailing know-it-all attitude that comes up everytime tivo vs. dish dvr discussions are posted which angers so many folks and spins these threads towards flame wars time in and time out.


:bowdown: LOL!!! You must have me confused again... I offer my opinion like everyone else. I probably express my opinions more assertively than others and that puts people on the defensive because they are so strongly rooted in theirs. Again, My arguments/debates/opinions are all to discuss the topics of DVRs and the features that exist. My opinions do have a level of experience that I offer because I do use both providers and have both units. This is where I feel I offer more than just someone on one provider (like yourself). Others do want to know more and you're not able to provide that information.

I'm here to help others not make the same mistakes I have by getting a 921 that doesn't work. I know that I have helped many make reasoned comparisions about both boxes. So, I'll be here for many months to years until I get a working 921. It might be easier for you to click the big "X" on the upper right corner of the screen if you feel that someone is forcing you to do something you don't want to.



Unthinkable said:


> You can suggest it all you want, but please don't force this opinionated contention down others throats as though everyone else is wrong in not subscribing to a Tivo cures cancer and all world ills, prevents global terrorism, saves baby seals from being clubbed, and helps restore the protective ozone layer collective mentality.


!rolling Man... I'm trying to take you serious, but I just don't see it like you do. It's never been a Tivo issue for me. It is which box does the most and does what is sold while still being delivered on time (no vapors). The 10-250 just happens to be that box. You can always push that big "X" on the upper right corner if you want to ignore my posts.



Unthinkable said:


> Others may argue superior is the one that gives you precisely what you want at a significantly lower monthly cost without a bunch of bloated unnecessary "features and extras" that aren't really desirable features and extras. There is a lot to be said for streamlined simple elegance. Ask Honda and Toyota about that sometime and take note of how many times the Accord makes the Ten Best List for X years in a row.


:uglyhamme
I guess you think a Toyota is better than a Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Rolles, etc. too.... Well, since you want a price comparision.... The 10-250 and the 921 are the same price. i.e. $1000. I'm not comparing low end Dish receivers to high end DirecTV receivers. My comparisions are on the flagship products for both providers. If you aren't playing in the same pond, then don't expect the water to taste the same...

Anyone ready to go back to the topic at hand, NBR, please be my guest...
:backtotop


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## moviegoerman

WeeJavaDude said:


> This is true Randy, What is really needed is a way for the content stream to tell the DVR when it is down with the show. Kinda of a "I am Done" event so that DVRs can be more responsive to a changing environment. This would be similar to indicating when a commercial segement is coming.
> 
> My guess is that this will never happen, because the content providers are not big fans of DVRs. This however would fix this issue and allow DVRs to be more dynamic in terms of end recording times.


The VCR had the ability to fast forward and skip past commercials since the 70's, but it hasn't been a big issue because it wasn't as easy to do until recently. We finally got past the flashing "12:00" and tape... LOL!

They do it for PPV so it's not a technology issue. It could be done if you had a dynamic guide via the Web that is maintained in real-time and ignored the content providers. It could also be done if the information was part of the mpeg stream for OTA broadcasts. i.e. beginning of program, commercial, and end of program. Like you say, that is very doubtful. I would think they would object more to having commercial tags as compared to just having a beginning and end tag for each program.

Marketers are trying to find new ways to get people to notice their products and services with invention of DVRs. Some are advertising inside of the program being broadcasted. That forces you to see the advertisement because it's part of the show. I've heard these types of advertisements on the radio too during talk shows. It is similar to how commercials used to be back in the 50's... The actors would stop and advertise a product in the middle of the show.

It becomes a problem if people stop advertising. Less programs are produced if there are less monies from advertisers. If they think no one is watching, then why would they pay to advertise?

There has also been talk of DVRs being regulated or illegal because of copyright violations. I'll be building my own once that happens, but I think that will be very difficult to stop DVRs since they have progressed so far.


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## boylehome

moviegoerman, Thanks for the information. This kind of sounds exciting. I'm looking forward to E* giving us this feature. I have a feeling though, that it will be pretty basic, if you know what I mean.


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## Unthinkable

moviegoerman said:


> :bowdown: LOL!!! You must have me confused again... I offer my opinion like everyone else. I probably express my opinions more assertively than others and that puts people on the defensive because they are so strongly rooted in theirs. Again, My arguments/debates/opinions are all to discuss the topics of DVRs and the features that exist. *My opinions do have a level of experience that I offer because I do use both providers and have both units. This is where I feel I offer more than just someone on one provider (like yourself).*Others do want to know more and you're not able to provide that information.


Actually you wandered into a Dish forum with post after post pounding your chest Tarzan style over how wonderful the HDTivo is wondering aloud how anyone person with a sane mind could ever rationally choose Dish Network with a 721, 508, or 921 over Tivo. Imagine that! Your mistaken assumption that I have no experience with both providers sheds even more light on things as I used to sell DirecTV and Tivo's everyday while maintaining service with Dish Network. Not worth the added monthly costs to me when you can get the best of everything along with two tuners for *no extra charges* with the 721 imo. Add up your Tivo fees over the course of 3 or 4 years time and think of how many other more pressing things in life you could have purchased with the same money. No brainer for a lot of folks who like what they get now just fine. Far more bang for the buck value-wise which often is the king of all ultimate decision makers when push comes to shove.



> I'm here to help others not make the same mistakes I have by getting a 921 that doesn't work. I know that I have helped many make reasoned comparisions about both boxes. So, I'll be here for many months to years until I get a working 921. It might be easier for you to click the big "X" on the upper right corner of the screen if you feel that someone is forcing you to do something you don't want to.


A modern day Robin Hood looking to spread the goodwill everywhere while encouraging even more of an open free-for-all against Dish's competing products to folks desperately in need of your help. Who knew right? How fortunate for us your words are wisdom are here. [/sarcasm]. Maybe we can have a Tivo circle-jerk every coupla days over here and you can lead the parade beating the drums of "superiority" on a regular basis. God knows thats what we need more of here. More Dish bashing for everyone - woohoo!!!!



> :uglyhamme
> I guess you think a Toyota is better than a Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Rolles, etc. too.... Well, since you want a price comparision.... The 10-250 and the 921 are the same price. i.e. $1000. I'm not comparing low end Dish receivers to high end DirecTV receivers. My comparisions are on the flagship products for both providers. If you aren't playing in the same pond, then don't expect the water to taste the same...


No, you again mistakenly missed the point. Point wasn't about which car manufacturer was best at all. Point was you can get an extremely reliable DVR with Dish Network that covers the majority of the bases when it comes to timeshifting programming to hard disk which is again what most people want at the end of the night. You know - to watch what they recorded when they want to on their own schedule. May not look the best- hell it may even resemble a refridgerator on wheels in the style department if you compare a Dish DVR with an older Camry, but it gets the job done and keeps a lot of satisfied owners very happy. I've never been big on ignoring people in forums. Everyone has a voice afterall.


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## moviegoerman

Unthinkable said:


> Actually you wandered into a Dish forum with post after post pounding your chest Tarzan style over how wonderful the HDTivo is wondering aloud how anyone person with a sane mind could ever rationally choose Dish Network with a 721, 508, or 921 over Tivo. Imagine that!


Hum... I disagree again... You need to go back and read the posts... I have a 721 and a 921 today. I was happy using my 508 before I got my 721. I've expressed only good things about my 721. I've only joined this forum when I got a 921 that doesn't have OTA guide support, missed recordings, failing to add OTA channels to favorites, and just plain buggy. My comparision has always been that a 10-250 is much better than the 921. It just happens to be a Tivo!



Unthinkable said:


> Your mistaken assumption that I have no experience with both providers sheds even more light on things as I used to sell DirecTV and Tivo's everyday while maintaining service with Dish Network. Not worth the added monthly costs to me when you can get the best of everything along with two tuners for *no extra charges* with the 721 imo.


Again... I said I "guess" you don't have any experience because you don't own a 921 or a 10-250. You keep referring to different receivers. You seem to think once you've seen a Tivo, then they are all the same. Have you used either HD receiver? Price seems to be your main argument. If price is an issue then you'll never be on the bleeding edge. The 921 has a DVR charge when I signed up for it too. Only the 721 is grandfathered without a charge. If you want to play with HD, then you only have one option on Dish (921) and only one option on DirecTV (10-250).



Unthinkable said:


> God knows thats what we need more of here. More Dish bashing for everyone - woohoo!!!!


I wonder which drum you're beating here... You don't seem to want to talk about any issues that relate to this thread at all. I don't have a problem beating on a drum about a product that is still not functioning as SOLD. By the way, I just purchased a much larger and louder drum... 



Unthinkable said:


> May not look the best- hell it may even resemble a refridgerator on wheels in the style department if you compare a Dish DVR with an older Camry, but it gets the job done and keeps a lot of satisfied owners very happy.


Actually, the 921 doesn't do the job. It doesn't have the OTA guide. I could go down the list of things that have failed and don't work, but you've probably already read about it since you've seen some of my posts.



Unthinkable said:


> I've never been big on ignoring people in forums. Everyone has a voice afterall.


WOW! Something we can agree on. But, is there something you have to add to the thread topic? Is there anything about NBR that you'd like to add or is your only goal to try to get me to stop sharing my viewpoint?


----------



## boylehome

moviegoerman said:


> I guess you think a Toyota is better than a Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Rolles, etc. too.... Well, since you want a price comparision.... The 10-250 and the 921 are the same price. i.e. $1000. I'm not comparing low end Dish receivers to high end DirecTV receivers. My comparisions are on the flagship products for both providers. If you aren't playing in the same pond, then don't expect the water to taste the same...


What does the 10-250 have that the 921 doesn't? Two, that's 2, OTA tuners. The 10-250 can accommodate more disk space! I don't have one, I want one, but I put all my eggs into one basket, E*. Hmmm, I need to get more eggs so I can get the 10-250  Dollar for dollar what is best?


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## moviegoerman

boylehome said:


> What does the 10-250 have that the 921 doesn't? Two, that's 2, OTA tuners. The 10-250 can accommodate more disk space! I don't have one, I want one, but I put all my eggs into one basket, E*. Hmmm, I need to get more eggs so I can get the 10-250  Dollar for dollar what is best?


The 10-250 has 2 OTA tuners, an OTA guide, NBR (season passes), and the other scheduling and recording features like WishLists, Suggestions, and Thumbs Up/Down. You can upgrade the 10-250, but it will violate your warranty to add more drives it. Its main downside is the slow guide.

Well, I went down the road you did too. I had plenty invested into Dish. Most of my investment today is still Dish. Only after being totally frustrated when I first got the 921 and I learned that they only get the OTA guide information from the PSIP data sent as part of the MPEG data stream did I run out an get a 10-250. I've seen to much vapor from Dish to think this was going to be fixed anytime soon. It's been a few months so far...

I was expecting the 921 to be like the 721 and it hasn't been close at all to me. The 10-250 allows me to record two shows at any time using OTA or satellite tuners. This allows me to record all my local shows just like I did on my 721. I original felt one OTA tuner would be good enough, but I find I'm using 2 or 3 tuners for local HD recording during the new fall primetime season. If your into sports, then the NFL Sunday Ticket gives you the games in HD too. I haven't been too much into sports until I've been watching it in HD... It's been a different experience.

I was on a mission to get HD. I've waited for so long with my 50" DLP to show HD on it. I refused to get the 6000 and I refused to give up my DVR support. I knew two people that owned them and they never had anything good to say about it. It was so buggy... They were tired of paying for hardware upgrades. One of them is still on Dish with a 921 and the other got a 10-250. The 10-250 owner was a Dish customer since they started.

OTA was extremely important to me. I wanted to get as much HD content as possible. Most of the HD content is during primetime OTA. I still watch plenty of HD on HBO, SHO, HDNet, Discovery HD, etc. I always heard there wasn't that much HD content out there, but with OTA and the satellite HD package, I watch about 90% of my programs in HD.

I was really torn between the 10-250 and the 921 because I had so much invested into Dish and I didn't want to run extra cables. I put in a DP+44 so I could run my 921 and my 721 in the same room. If the 921 would have delivered the OTA support I probably would have just stayed happily in my corner of the world and never knew any different.

Unfortunately, once I decided to head the 10-250 route, I had to run two more wires. Now, I have all 3 receivers connected to my Sammy in one room. I don't miss any shows unless the 921 fails to record something.

If you're not interested in OTA locals, or NBR, or automatic recordings, or reliable software, then the 921 is an acceptable solution. It still has bugs beyond that, but many seem to like it if the just use it for satellite recording. For me, I have much more confidence in my Tivo recording my programs. It hasn't missed anything yet and has done everything I thought I was getting out of the box.

If you want to compare the dollars, then look at my other thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=284660&postcount=17

Dish switches cost me much more than DirecTV. If you compare the receivers by themselves, then they are the same. The programming is competitive depending on what you get. You can check out DirecTV's packages on their website.

How do you like your 921? Does it do what you expect it to do? Does it do what you want it to do? If your happy, then it's always cheaper to stay, but if you want something that the 921 doesn't have or do, then the 10-250 will do what it says it does.


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## Inaba

garypen said:


> Don't you mean E*?


Oops, yes... fat fingered that one, didn't I? heh Definitely an E* customer.



> VCR stands for Video Cassette Recorder which records analog signals on removable tapes.


Really? And all this time I thought my JVC 1000 was recording the raw mpeg stream digitally to a tape. Who knew it was actually analog? Only difference between my JVC 1000 and the 721 is the two tuners and the fact that I can record more than ~3 hours at a time without changing tapes. Sounds exactly like a VCR to me.

Anyway...

In regards to Unthinkable, Moviegoer beat me to the punch using cars as analogy. Trying to say a Mazda 6 is the same as a BMW 5 Series is ludicrous. Just like trying to say a 721 is as good as a Tivo. A Mazda doesn't stand up in any comparison you'd like to make against a BMW, except for price... the BMW is just quite simply the better car. That's why there are more Mazda's on the road than BMW's... and THAT is why you prefer your 721 over a Tivo from what I gather... the cost (monthly) - and while that's perfectly valid - that does NOT mean the 721 is better, it just means it's all you can afford, and you'd rather spend your money elsewhere.

Just because you settle for something that's of lesser quality doesn't mean the quality is just as good, it just means you're willing to settle for less than people who are willing to spend the money for quality workmanship.


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## Ron Barry

moviegoerman said:


> The VCR had the ability to fast forward and skip past commercials since the 70's, but it hasn't been a big issue because it wasn't as easy to do until recently. We finally got past the flashing "12:00" and tape... LOL!


From my experience only a few VCRs had the ability to automatically skip commercials. VCR Manufactures were pressured to remove this feature. All the VCRS I have owned have never had this feature and required manually using the fast foward. Slow process compared to the 30 second skip.



moviegoerman said:


> They do it for PPV so it's not a technology issue. It could be done if you had a dynamic guide via the Web that is maintained in real-time and ignored the content providers. It could also be done if the information was part of the mpeg stream for OTA broadcasts. i.e. beginning of program, commercial, and end of program. Like you say, that is very doubtful. I would think they would object more to having commercial tags as compared to just having a beginning and end tag for each program.


This is what I was talking about. It could also be an out of band solution that is more dynamic than the current EPG updates. This could be added. I think the commercial issues is a seperate issues. One that is more political and technical for sure.



moviegoerman said:


> Marketers are trying to find new ways to get people to notice their products and services with invention of DVRs. Some are advertising inside of the program being broadcasted. That forces you to see the advertisement because it's part of the show. I've heard these types of advertisements on the radio too during talk shows. It is similar to how commercials used to be back in the 50's... The actors would stop and advertise a product in the middle of the show.


Yeap.. there is an issue there and I believe this is a primary driving key to interactive TV if it ever occurs.

Anything that gives the consume away to get around commercials and to watch a program differently than its orginal intent makes content providers very nervous and grumpy.


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## Ron Barry

Inaba said:


> Really? And all this time I thought my JVC 1000 was recording the raw mpeg stream digitally to a tape. Who knew it was actually analog? Only difference between my JVC 1000 and the 721 is the two tuners and the fact that I can record more than ~3 hours at a time without changing tapes. Sounds exactly like a VCR to me.


From what I could gather with a quick look the JVC 1000 is an HD VCR? Hardly mainstream and in my opinion is not a far comparision to the 721. From a quick scan these boxes are designed to capture HDTV signals (MPEG-2). I could not hook them up to my Dish line and capture the video without a tuner and even with a tuner there would be a decoding/encoding extra step. 721 does not do HD. And I have not played with an HD VCR so I can't make a comment. In the case of NTSC, my understanding that HD VCRs have an encoder to encode it to MPEG-2.

Oh and by the way.. if I was to take this high level of a look at a BMW and Mazda, I would come to the conclusion there is no difference. They both have tires.. They both have and engine, both have stereos, etc. The fact is the difference is in the details. Since I don't have a JVC 1000, I cannot determine if your assertion is true, my guess given your previous posts is that I would find some differences.

I think the orginally posters on the what a VCR is was based on a standard VCR that you can get for under 100 bucks. Not a HD VCR. But then again, based on the logic I have seen below, they are both the same.



Inaba said:


> In regards to Unthinkable, Moviegoer beat me to the punch using cars as analogy. Trying to say a Mazda 6 is the same as a BMW 5 Series is ludicrous. Just like trying to say a 721 is as good as a Tivo. A Mazda doesn't stand up in any comparison you'd like to make against a BMW, except for price... the BMW is just quite simply the better car. That's why there are more Mazda's on the road than BMW's... and THAT is why you prefer your 721 over a Tivo from what I gather... the cost (monthly) - and while that's perfectly valid - that does NOT mean the 721 is better, it just means it's all you can afford, and you'd rather spend your money elsewhere.


It is so hard not to get personal with statments like the above and below. It is not about quality or feature set. It is about weighing your options given the parameters you working with. PQ, Location, Cost, Features, Content you are looking for, precieved reliability, precieved service etc and making a decision. For some NBR is a driving factor. For others having ever bell and whistle and usability feature in their DVR is the driving factor. For others it is the best PQ possible. For others is the content that drives the choice.

To improve the usability of the Dish's DVR, Dish does not have to reach the level of a TIVO. What They have to do is address some of the short comings of time shifting that NBR provides. What does NBR address?

1) Moving Timer events if the named program event changes. 
2) Provided a better event paradigm tagged to a Name Rather than a Time. 
3) Add Smarts to the Event Schedular expand the notion of what an Event Timer is.

Dish does not have to provide all TIVO features to be useful to their customers. It needs to address these issues in a way that is user friendly and will allow the least amount hand holding as possible.

As to the comment of affording.. Well I won mine. However, when I decided what DVR to go with I considerd both a stand alone TIVO and the Dish DVR. Money was a small factor, but I can assure you I could afford either and was by no means they factor. Believe it or not, People choose a Dish DVR for other reasons than a cheaper cash outlay.



Inaba said:


> Just because you settle for something that's of lesser quality doesn't mean the quality is just as good, it just means you're willing to settle for less than people who are willing to spend the money for quality workmanship.


My guess is that a good number of decisions made in this area are not made on a Quality vs. Cost basis. My guess the majority are made on the, I have this service and what are my DVR choices for this service. This is why Dish has so many DVR in the market.


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## moviegoerman

WeeJavaDude said:


> From my experience only a few VCRs had the ability to automatically skip commercials. VCR Manufactures were pressured to remove this feature. All the VCRS I have owned have never had this feature and required manually using the fast foward. Slow process compared to the 30 second skip.


Yeah, we're on the same page. I just meant you can skip through the commercials using FF since the 70s. i.e. ignoring them. The VCR had as much stink as DVRs do today. Back then it was about piracy issues. HD-DVD is having the same problems. So are networking, archiving and home media options, etc. That's why the firewire isn't implemented in the 921. At least I see Tivo moving in the right direction of working with content providers with TivoToGo archiving features. They are doing it using a dongle and encryption to prevent mass piracy.

It really comes down to finding something where everyone can be happy... The content providers and the consumers. Marketing something to me I'll never purchase is just a waste of their time... Smarter marketing techniques would work much better. Sell me something related to what I'm interested in watching. Or let me go to Google and find it when I need it. 

Below is a snip from another website on the issue:

*TiVomaticTM interactive previews*

From TiVo's website, _"TiVomatic simplifies recording even more. TiVo viewers will see the TiVomatic icon pop up in the corner of their TV screen when they are watching a TiVomatic preview. By simply pressing "Select" on the TiVo remote, viewers are given the opportunity to schedule the recording when it airs. Previously announced as Ipreview, this feature allows consumers to record shows on impulse from the previews for those shows. Partners NBC, Showtime and Encore will be the first to implement this interactive convenience for consumers"_

One of the best features of PersonalTV is the ability to skip through commercials. It appears that TiVo and it's partners are searching for a way to make it worth your time to watch them by making them more interactive. Further evidence of this phenomenon is the fact that TiVo doesn't (and probably never will) have a 30 second skip feature. This feature will not keep you from skipping commercials. It simply gives you an incentive not to.
*________________________________________________*​
TiVomatic is a cool feature for selling you programs to watch... I was intriged when it first showed up on my screen. I didn't know what it was at the time. If they did it for products and integrated the web for details and purchasing, then they would have a stronger buyer model to present to advertisers. Plus, let's not forget a Thumbs Up/Down so I never have to see the advertisement again... They need to learn how to make this technology pay for them instead of fighting it.

Just so no one is confused by the 30 second skip quote... You can enable the 30 second skip very easily. It's just not enabled by default.


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## Unthinkable

moviegoerman said:


> Hum... I disagree again... You need to go back and read the posts... I have a 721 and a 921 today. I was happy using my 508 before I got my 721. I've expressed only good things about my 721. I've only joined this forum when I got a 921 that doesn't have OTA guide support, missed recordings, failing to add OTA channels to favorites, and just plain buggy. My comparision has always been that a 10-250 is much better than the 921. It just happens to be a Tivo!


I've read every post in this thread several times over thank you very much. Original poster (Fastman) asked a simple and straightforward question as to when Dish Network would have name based recordings implemented in their current line of DVR receivers. Then Don Landis, Inaba, and yourself all did your very best to hijack this particular thread into _yet another_ Dish DVR vs. Tivo comparison thread which we already have enough of as it is without trainwrecking even more threads into the bayous of alligator infested waters.



> Again... I said I "guess" you don't have any experience because you don't own a 921 or a 10-250. You keep referring to different receivers. You seem to think once you've seen a Tivo, then they are all the same. Have you used either HD receiver? Price seems to be your main argument. If price is an issue then you'll never be on the bleeding edge. The 921 has a DVR charge when I signed up for it too. Only the 721 is grandfathered without a charge. If you want to play with HD, then you only have one option on Dish (921) and only one option on DirecTV (10-250).


No you didn't. I quoted your exact words in the posts above if you care to look back a bit. I'll give you a hint here - check the bolded text portion of _your very own words_ which I quoted with regards to your assumptions I had no knowledge whatsoever of how Tivo's and DirecTV in general compare with Dish Networks current offerings. This thread had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how wonderful the HDTivo is versus the 921 which is where you took things to. Perhaps a better place for that would be in a separate thread for this kind of discussion just as Charise indicated or better yet, just add onto one of the many Tivo vs. _____ threads already created in the past. Easy to do with a quick search. Once again for all the fans sitting up high in the cheap seats further back from the action: the information you chimed in with helps the original poster not one iota in wondering aloud when we'd see NBR on the 501's, 508's, 510's, 721's, 522's, and 921's.



> WOW! Something we can agree on. But, is there something you have to add to the thread topic? Is there anything about NBR that you'd like to add or is your only goal to try to get me to stop sharing my viewpoint?


I've already thrown in my two cents both here and in numerous other NBR threads in the past. Glad its coming for the fans who are desperately waiting for this, but for me I know I'll never use it myself. I don't mind you sharing your viewpoint one bit, but I do think people tend to get annoyed whenever threads are completely derailed by one persons attempt to turn it into something it was never intended to be in the first place. Not talking about you necessarily as a big time repeat offender like a few select others I won't name here, but plenty of good threads in the making on the Dish forums here go straight to hell with posters forever in love with the concept of constantly tearing down, criticizing, trivializing, and minimizing all the good things Dish Network does perfectly well in the pursuit of "being the class clown" or "telling it the way it really is" imo. End result is we wind up with members often looking to suck the fun out of everyone's party both here and on the Charlie Chat Chats at every given chance with endless and highly unoriginal "no compelling content" jokes which is rather unfortunate in the grand scheme of things since both the company and the CEO get shortchanged on a lot of the positives they shouldn't. Its like Darius Kasparaitus coming in low and fast to submarine the knees of his opponent with a wicked cheap shot oftentimes. So easy to bash and criticize. We could use a lot more constructive posts here in my eyes.


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## Inaba

> From what I could gather with a quick look the JVC 1000 is an HD VCR? Hardly mainstream and in my opinion is not a far comparision to the 721. From a quick scan these boxes are designed to capture HDTV signals (MPEG-2). I could not hook them up to my Dish line and capture the video without a tuner and even with a tuner there would be a decoding/encoding extra step. 721 does not do HD. And I have not played with an HD VCR so I can't make a comment. In the case of NTSC, my understanding that HD VCRs have an encoder to encode it to MPEG-2.


The JVC 1000 is not an HD VCR heh... (wish it was!) - I bought it about 6 years ago. According to your definitino of a DVR, it's a DVR... but no one in their right mind would classify it as such.

It's a Digital VCR that records Dish Network MPEG2 streams straight to a VCR tape. You technically have to use digital tapes, but you can buy SVHS tapes and punch a hole in the bottom and use them. It had a built in E* tuner, where you move around, just like the 721... pick the show you want to record and create a timer... exactly like the 721.

Believe me when I tell you the JVC 1000, which records to tapes, is the same as a 721, with the exception of the fact that you don't have to swap out the tape every 3 hours of recording. 30 second skip? Yep... and it's FAST, not as fast as the 721, but 3 - 4x as fast as a regular VCR at least.

Again, the JVC 1000 is a VCR, pure and simple... it's digital, but none the less it's a VCR. It does everything the 721 does (except the tape issue and the dual tuners)... so basically you can't use your definition of DVR unless you are going to include things like the JVC 1000. The line should be drawn on the fact that this new device offers something NEW... not just more of the old stuff.

Season passes are new
NBR is new

etc... That's what sets the real DVRs apart from the glorified VCRs that E* offers. The two tuner thing isn't even new... I use to watch one show while recording another all the time with a VCR. Being able to record two shows at once while watching a recorded show is new, though, I will give 'em that.



> It is so hard not to get personal with statments like the above and below. It is not about quality or feature set. It is about weighing your options given the parameters you working with. PQ, Location, Cost, Features, Content you are looking for, precieved reliability, precieved service etc and making a decision. For some NBR is a driving factor. For others having ever bell and whistle and usability feature in their DVR is the driving factor. For others it is the best PQ possible. For others is the content that drives the choice.


I was referring to Unthinkables (apparent) factor for purchasing being cost... not yours. Like you, cost played very little factor into my decision to buy a 721 (ignorance played a big part) - my 721 cost me $450 bucks or so, as a recall... I could have bought a Tivo with lifetime and still come out ahead for that.

But again, and I hate to keep repeating myself... just because a Mazda is suitable for your needs does NOT make it a better car than a BMW. We're not talking about percieved notions of anything, we're talking about raw facts. Lets widen the gap a bit to maybe better illustrate the point.

A Yugo vs a BMW... no one is going to argue that a Yugo is a better car. It's a cheaper car, yes... but it's not better in terms of quality, workmanship, reliability, etc... A Yugo may suit any given persons basic need for transportation, but just because it's suitable for a particular person and for a particular task does not make that the BEST tool for the job. You can use the back of a screwdriver as a hammer, but that doesn't mean the screw driver is just as good as a hammer for pounding nails in. Does it suit some peoples needs? Sure it does. Does that make the screwdriver just as good as a hammer? Hell no.


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## Unthinkable

Inaba said:


> Anyway...
> 
> In regards to Unthinkable, Moviegoer beat me to the punch using cars as analogy. Trying to say a Mazda 6 is the same as a BMW 5 Series is ludicrous. Just like trying to say a 721 is as good as a Tivo. A Mazda doesn't stand up in any comparison you'd like to make against a BMW, except for price... the BMW is just quite simply the better car. That's why there are more Mazda's on the road than BMW's... and THAT is why you prefer your 721 over a Tivo from what I gather... the cost (monthly) - and while that's perfectly valid - that does NOT mean the 721 is better, it just means it's all you can afford, and you'd rather spend your money elsewhere.
> 
> Just because you settle for something that's of lesser quality doesn't mean the quality is just as good, it just means you're willing to settle for less than people who are willing to spend the money for quality workmanship.


Thought I made it clear I was keying in on simplicity, reliability and dependability as key features people commonly associate with Honda's and Toyota's in making comparisons to Dish DVR's, but I guess I didn't. Already said once before to moviegoerman that this was never once about which car was better then another. I'll say it again though if it needs to be repeated once more. For me the 721's and 501's I own have both been extremely reliable and dependable in doing just what I ask of them. I haven't had any issues with either of them in a long, long time. Cost is certainly a big factor, but its not the only one by any stretch of the imagination. We've gone back and forth on this in the past many times over Inaba even though you said publically you'd never beat this dead horse one final time with the exact same rants. You see it as babysitting your 721 and holding its hand when it comes to setting up timers and what not and I don't. You view the 721 as settling on lesser quality and putting up with an inferior product and again I don't. My 721 works perfect for me same as my 501 does. Meets every single need I have and has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of money I'd be willing to spend to be happy since I won this particular 721 in the Survivor contest awhile back and was never out of pocket one penny for it. If it truly sucked ass and made my life miserable to a point where it interfered with my general well being, I would have dumped it a long time ago and opted for something different in a heart beat. It didn't.


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## moviegoerman

Unthinkable said:


> We could use a lot more constructive posts here in my eyes.


I guess we can continue to disagree completely on MANY things... It's pointless to continue trying to reason with you about it. I have no trouble flaming Dish for products that don't work and the endless BS that the company seems to spill out over the last few years. I give praise where it's due and I'll argue where I think it needs to be changed. There are people on both sides of the fence and some in between. I think we both know where we fall.

You won't see me personally attack anyone on this forum unless I have to defend myself like I've had to do with you. I have much more respect for peoples' opinions especially if they have a reason for why they feel the way they do. You're main argument seems to be that you don't like people flaming Dish. Sorry that you take it so personally, but don't expect it to change unless Dish starts building flawless products and delivers them on time as promised.

I'll be waiting for your posts about ANY topic at hand instead of what you think of people on the forum.


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## garypen

moviegoerman said:


> I guess we can continue to disagree completely on MANY things... It's pointless to continue trying to reason with you about it.


Perhaps if you use a hockey reference in your argument, he might better understand your point.


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## Mark Lamutt

Ok, we're done here. Closing.


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