# CBS stations pulled from Dish Network in contract dispute (for less than 12 hours)



## bgullicksen (Oct 1, 2006)

I just lost CBS....anyone else? When does Showtime go?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

bgullicksen said:


> I just lost CBS....anyone else? When does Showtime go?


Updated:

http://keepcbs.com/

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Why does DISH no Longer Have CBS Programming?

A: Unfortunately, DISH was unwilling to work towards an agreement that kept CBS stations available to its subscribers. It seems to be a situation they put consumers in often based on the over 120 broadcast stations that this has happened to since 2013.

Q: DISH told me that my bill will go up if they accepted your terms?

A: Any rate increase DISH chooses to implement is entirely up to DISH.

Q: How much should DISH be crediting me for the loss of CBS?

A: While you are already paying for CBS as part of your package, the amount of any credit is up to DISH.

Q: How can I get CBS back?

A: Call 1-855-5-KEEP US to be connected to DISH and ask them to get CBS back on their channel line-up. After all, you are already paying for CBS. If DISH refuses your request, you have other alternatives. Visit KeepCBS.com to view your options.

Q: When will CBS be back on DISH?

A: Only DISH can answer that question but we have seen them stay dark with other programmers for months. CBS will continue to work towards a fair agreement. We have only been dark once in our history while DISH has been in disagreements numerous times so this territory is still new to us.

Q: Why have they also taken down Showtime?

A: Showtime is owned by CBS and so DISH dropped both channels. You do have options. Visit www.KeepSHO.com.


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

bgullicksen said:


> I just lost CBS....anyone else? When does Showtime go?


What station did you lose? Are they owned by Nexstar?


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Athlon646464 said:


> What station did you lose? Are they owned by Nexstar?


He lost CBS - Nexstar is Midnight.


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## bgullicksen (Oct 1, 2006)

I don't think they are owned by Nexstar. I lost WBZ and WSBK in Boston.


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> He lost CBS - Nexstar is Midnight.


Thought it could have been coincidence. I see now that CBS has pulled the plug.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Yep as of 4 pm Pacific Time according to the LA Times.


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## nmetro (Jul 11, 2006)

KCNC, Denver, shows a slate indicating:

Sorry for the interruption of service.
There is no need to call us.

We are aware that this TV station
is temporarily unavailable and
we will have the channel back
as quickly as possible.

Looks like it went around 5 PM MST.

I'm glad I have the OTA set up; works great.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/currency/cbs-takes-programming-dish-network/136168

CBS Takes Programming Off Dish Network Blackout comes after numerous extensions12/05/2014 07:19:00 PM Eastern


By: Jon Lafayette
Follow @jlafayette









_CBS' 'NCIS'_

CBS said it has taken its programming off Dish Network effective at 7 p.m. ET.

"CBS has been negotiating a carriage agreement with Dish for six months and has already granted two extensions," CBS said in a statement. "During this time, Dish has dragged its feet at our many attempts to negotiate in good faith. Behavior like this is why Dish has a long history of depriving customers of the programing they have paid for.

CBS says it is seeking "appropriate compensation for the most-watched television network with the most popular content in the world, as well as terms that reflect the developing digital marketplace."

"We hope that we can reach an agreement very soon so we can all get back to the business of providing the best entertainment, news and sports to the Dish customers we both serve," CBS said.


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## nmetro (Jul 11, 2006)

I am waiting for Sunday, when angry Denver based Bronco fans start jamming CBS and DISH phone lines. Then again, there are some Missouri and Alabama fans may not too happy tomorrow, either.

"Appropriate compensation" for programming that runs 18 minutes per hour of commercials.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

While I'm writing this, "Judge Judy" is streaming live from KPIX 5 (the CBS O&O Bay Area station not available through Dish) through my free first month of CBS All Access. And KBCW 44, The CW affiliate owned and operated by CBS, is also not available through Dish. Ironically, The CW shows can be streamed at The CW's website which is what their target audience for the most part already does.

So even though I don't have OTA, I have the equivalent of live OTA and show streaming on demand from CBS and streaming from The CW.

I know this doesn't solve the problem for sport fans, but then again they don't pay for my CBS-owned Showtime programming. I know that sooner or later those fans will stick me with the cost of sports on CBS.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

nmetro said:


> I am waiting for Sunday, when angry Denver based Bronco fans start jamming CBS and DISH phone lines. Then again, there are some Missouri and Alabama fans may not too happy tomorrow, either.


Considering it is a home game, it could have been much worse.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Athletic supporters need to get snapped back to reality sometimes.


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## camo (Apr 15, 2010)

Antenna time if you can. No Antenna service in my area however but I do have Directv :up:


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I used to be able to go to McDonalds and get a Double Cheeseburger for .99. Now it cost 50%. I do not want to pay 50% more for the Burger. McDonalds (rightfully so)refuses to lose money on the sale. So both parties are 50/50 to blame?


You have the analogy wrong. You used to be able to buy a double cheesburger for 99 cents, now it costs 50% more. This is because McDonalds had to re-negotiate with their "beef" supplier who wanted more money for their "beef". A new deal was made, and McDonalds has no choice but to forward the higher price of the "beef" on to the customer. McDonalds and their supplier are both to blame. The supplier for wanting more money for the "beef", and McDonalds for not negotiating a lower price.

And during the negotiations, they technically could have put up a sign: "Sorry, hamburgers with "beef" are temporary unavailable due to a dispute with the supplier", and offer specials on their "chicken" and "fish" products.

In the end, the consumer gets shafted. You still want the same double cheeseburger, but now you have to pay a $1.50 fee to get one, instead of the 99 cents.

Regarding Comcast Sportsnet: The Houston version of Comcast Sportsnet went bankrupt because they weren't able to secure a deal. And Comcast is partly to blame for that because they banked on expensive sports broadcast rights for the Astros and Rockets (And Dynamo, but they are cheap  ) They have since relaunched as Roots Sportsnet in November 2014 and were bought by DirecTV and AT&T.

The same is happening in Los Angeles. The Dodgers launched their own network in 2013, and broadcasted the 2014 MLB season of the Dodgers, but only the channel owner - Time Warner Cable - carries the channel. No one is willing to pay the $4 a month they want, and Time Warner Cable is starting to feel the financial pain. DirecTV may now just be waiting till they can do the same and scoop up a bankrupt channel (and its broadcast rights) for a lot less money TWC originally paid for them, and TWC taking a big fat loss like Comcast did in Houston.

Other sports broadcasters really need to learn from the failures of buying BIG sports broadcast rights, and then simply being unable to sell them without taking a bath. We have reached the pricepoint of absurdity in sports programming, and customers are starting to notice.

You don't want to go to McDonalds and find out that due to a different supplier, your "Dodgers Burger" no longer costs $2.49 but costs $4. That is going to piss you off, and it is pissing off people.


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

nmetro said:


> I am waiting for Sunday, when angry Denver based Bronco fans start jamming CBS and DISH phone lines. Then again, there are some Missouri and Alabama fans may not too happy tomorrow, either.
> 
> "Appropriate compensation" for programming that runs 18 minutes per hour of commercials.


The advertisers that paid good money for those 42 minutes of commercials per hour are going to be a lot more pissed off then the fans. The fans can - after all - either go to a friend that has a different provider, head over to a sports bar, hook up an antenna for OTA, or switch provider before the game. They have a LOT of options to still see the game..... The advertisers on the other hand.... are out a lot of money they paid for adverts promised to be shown to a potential of 14 million customers, and they are really going to want their money back from Dish.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

maartena said:


> The advertisers that paid good money for those 42 minutes of commercials per hour are going to be a lot more pissed off then the fans. The fans can - after all - either go to a friend that has a different provider, head over to a sports bar, hook up an antenna for OTA, or switch provider before the game. They have a LOT of options to still see the game..... The advertisers on the other hand.... are out a lot of money they paid for adverts promised to be shown to a potential of 14 million customers, and they are really going to want their money back from Dish.


You really contradict yourself.

1) You say the advertisers are out of money because now people will not see it.

2) Then you say people will see it as the go to friends, bars or hook up an antenna.

You cannot have it both ways.

But regardless, you are wrong as you do not understand how TV Advertising works. Suggest you read post #154 again. Advertisers will get at least the minimum guaranteed by their schedule.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

maartena said:


> You have the analogy wrong. You used to be able to buy a double cheesburger for 99 cents, now it costs 50% more. This is because McDonalds had to re-negotiate with their "beef" supplier who wanted more money for their "beef". A new deal was made, and McDonalds has no choice but to forward the higher price of the "beef" on to the customer. McDonalds and their supplier are both to blame. The supplier for wanting more money for the "beef", and McDonalds for not negotiating a lower price.
> 
> And during the negotiations, they technically could have put up a sign: "Sorry, hamburgers with "beef" are temporary unavailable due to a dispute with the supplier", and offer specials on their "chicken" and "fish" products.
> 
> ...


Actually you are off base even more. This dispute lands squarely on Dish. No 50/50. No 80 Dish / 20 CBS. 100 Dish / 0 CBS.

CBS has the highest ratings of any Network. Period. End of Story.

35% of MVPD viewing is the Local Stations.

The local stations should get 35% of the Programming Revenue. But they are not asking for that.

CBS wants $2 per sub.

Dish says no (for reasons I will get to later). Dish should refuse to pay MTV9 or GAC or H2 or whatever and move that money to pay CBS (and the other Network Stations).

Dish made the decision to not do that.

If Dish had done that, CBS would still be on the air - and your bill would not go up 1 cent.

Again, 100% in Dish's hand.

But the real reason your CBS is off (as Dish will eventually pay the $2 per sub) is that Charlie wants CBS as part of his soon to be launched OTT Virtual Cable Network.

CBS says no. Negotiate for what is on the table now.

So YOU have no CBS because YOU are paying the price for Charlie wanting CBS for his OTT Internet Subscription Service.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

The dispute isn't over the CBS O&O networks it is now revealed, but over CBSSN which to my knowledge isn't up for contract negotiations. I think DISH is getting frustrated and let the reason out in a new release. It seems this is no longer about cost per sub for O&O's.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-dish-cbs-1206-met-20141205-story.html


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

tampa8 said:


> The dispute isn't over the CBS O&O networks it is now revealed, but over CBSSN which to my knowledge isn't up for contract negotiations. I think DISH is getting frustrated and let the reason out in a new release. It seems this is no longer about cost per sub for O&O's.
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-dish-cbs-1206-met-20141205-story.html


As i said, the O&O fee would be paid. It is about Charlie's Virtual OTT Service he wants to kick off before the end of the year at a $30 price.

And as I said, Satellite Subs are paying the price of no CBS because of it.

Charlie is NOT fighting to hold your price down, lol. He is using you as a pawn for a new venture.

You are officially his Hostage!


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah I don't but that it's simply cbs sports net that is causing this, there is more to it.

He is probably trying to get a killer deal n streaming the sports channel and cbs is likely laughing at what he wants.

I can't wait to see when it does all come back if they disable auto hop for three days like abc did.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

inkahauts said:


> I can't wait to see when it does all come back if they disable auto hop for three days like abc did.


Thats a given. The questions is will it be 7 days as Networks are now using C7 for ratings.


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## Jon W (Jan 27, 2004)

I guess that's one advantage of keeping my ol VIP722. As long as we switch our CBS shows to recording the OTA feed we should be ok for the short term. I installed a leaf antenna last year and it works surprisingly well.


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## mailiang (Jul 30, 2006)

You can always access their shows on-line. They can't block Dish customers from streaming on CBS.com like they did with Time Warner. 


Ian


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Went over to the Dish faceboon page. The CSR's are not really comenting on the complaints this time, but it looks like more people are willing to jump ship more quickly as they are losing their Bronco games.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Not missing anything. I don't even know what's on Cant't Broadcast S**t anymore.

Go Chuckie!! Stick it in the Big Eye!


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## PCampbell (Nov 18, 2006)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You really contradict yourself.
> 
> 1) You say the advertisers are out of money because now people will not see it.
> 
> ...


the advertisers pay CBS based on the number of homes watching, without Dish that number just went down.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Yup. It's the number of sets, not the number of eyes. If 20 households turn it off and everyone from those houses goes to a single bar to watch, their numbers dropped by 20. There may be some formula that considers the number of eyes watching at a public performance venue, but it wouldn't be the same as multiple households.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

OK, we can all take a deep breath. The deal is done!!

For those that lost CBS, you only lost it for a few hours. For the rest of the country, it wasn't anything other than fodder for discussion.

All the CBS O&O are back and Showtime Anywhere (Anytime??) and VOD are now part of the deal too. That's been a very long time coming.

I've not read if the new OTT service is part of all of this yet.


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## SDWC (Dec 14, 2005)

I hooked up a simple antenna that I bought for $14 and it worked great. It's a Leopard HD. My CBS channel looks terrific.


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## jaymz (Dec 1, 2009)

My DishN here in MPLS went dark last nite at 7:03.

This AM (6:15AM), it was back up. 

Wuzzup???????

Jim


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## SDWC (Dec 14, 2005)

As I turned the TV on this morning at 8:30 AM in Pittsburgh, the local CBS affiliate (KDKA) is back on DISH. Something positive must have happened overnight, Also on the guide, the notification channel that sat next to it warning of the loss of CBS is now gone.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Perhaps Charlie blinked after CBS gave him a moment of pause.


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## camo (Apr 15, 2010)

SDWC said:


> I hooked up a simple antenna that I bought for $14 and it worked great. It's a Leopard HD. My CBS channel looks terrific.


Now you're ready if it happens again. If I had the antenna option thats all I would use, getting the local sports broadcast and rest on the roku would be enough. Unfortunately zero antenna reception here.


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## bluegras (Jan 31, 2008)

press release from dish and cbs this morning over deal reached last night you might want read all of this.

http://about.dish.com/press-release/programming/cbs-and-dish-reach-content-carriage-agreement

allen bluegras


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## WestDC (Feb 9, 2008)

DISH's AutoHop commercial-skipping functionality will not be available for CBS Television Network-owned stations and affiliates during the C7 window.

What really matters to CBS :rolling: more so than increased carry fee's


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## nmetro (Jul 11, 2006)

So, it really was about the 18 minutes per hour of commercials.

Not sure what "C7" window means, though.

It does not matter to me; I do not use this feature anyway.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't get both Directv and Dish when a price hike happens but still have disputes, then why give the "We're fighting to keep prices lower for customers" speech, I know that content owners are asking for ridiculous prices per sub, 
But why say something you can't promise on.


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## SDWC (Dec 14, 2005)

"Not sure what "C7" window means, though."

According to the Nielsen Ratings wiki page, C7 is defined as "live plus 7 days". So it will be a week before AutoHop is activated. Since the PTAT folder only holds programs for up to 8 days that doesn't leave much time for viewers who want to utilize the functionality. Unless they go to the PTAT folder and save the specific programs they wish to view after the 8 day window,


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

PCampbell said:


> the advertisers pay CBS based on the number of homes watching, without Dish that number just went down.





SayWhat? said:


> Yup. It's the number of sets, not the number of eyes. If 20 households turn it off and everyone from those houses goes to a single bar to watch, their numbers dropped by 20. There may be some formula that considers the number of eyes watching at a public performance venue, but it wouldn't be the same as multiple households.


You guys are clueless as to how TV Advertising work and to posting (TV AD SALES TERM). Again you need to re-read post 154 again, even though you replied to the post stating that. It is not homes, it is eyeball IN DEMO.

Furthermore, in the just released November Ratings (10/30-11/26), CNN saw the most growth year-to-year, increasing 34 percent in total day viewers and 55 percent in the demo compared to November 2013.

Meanwhile, MSNBC  lost 13 percent of its total viewers and 16 percent of its demo viewers year-over-year.

Why does that matter? CNN was pulled of Dish during that period (~15M subs) and increased 34% while MSNBC which was added to replace CNN lost 13% from the year prior.

So blackouts of ~15M subs does NOT mean disaster for a Channel, And adding more subs, even when another channel is not available, does indicate success.


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## rocat1997 (May 17, 2011)

Glad my vip722 has 30sec skip function. I never watch anything live. Even sports. I hate commercials. It would be one thing if their was only minute or 2. But some go 5 mins or more. Especially channels like AMC. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SDWC said:


> According to the Nielsen Ratings wiki page, C7 is defined as "live plus 7 days". So it will be a week before AutoHop is activated. Since the PTAT folder only holds programs for up to 8 days that doesn't leave much time for viewers who want to utilize the functionality. Unless they go to the PTAT folder and save the specific programs they wish to view after the 8 day window,


One can also set a timer for the program which places the program with the regular recordings and leaves it there until deleted. I have timers set for the PTAT programming I actually watch.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Furthermore, in the just released November Ratings (10/30-11/26), CNN saw the most growth year-to-year, increasing 34 percent in total day viewers and 55 percent in the demo compared to November 2013.





SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So blackouts of ~15M subs does NOT mean disaster for a Channel, And adding more subs, even when another channel is not available, does indicate success.


The situation is more complicated than that. One would need to look at ALL of the influences year to year and take everything into account.

What was in the news in November of 2013? CNN tends to do better when there is breaking news ... they are a "go to network" for people who don't watch the news and don't have a regular "I watch this channel every day" type of news channel. Shockingly enough, NEWS is the best thing for CNN's ratings. They tend to overuse the "Breaking News" banner - but that is why a large part of their audience tunes in. Something happened and the non-news junkies tune in to find out what is going on.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. If being off DISH helped CNN's ratings Turner could simply cut the feed.


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## PCampbell (Nov 18, 2006)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> You guys are clueless as to how TV Advertising work and to posting (TV AD SALES TERM). Again you need to re-read post 154 again, even though you replied to the post stating that. It is not homes, it is eyeball IN DEMO.
> Furthermore, in the just released November Ratings (10/30-11/26), CNN saw the most growth year-to-year, increasing 34 percent in total day viewers and 55 percent in the demo compared to November 2013.
> 
> Meanwhile, MSNBC  lost 13 percent of its total viewers and 16 percent of its demo viewers year-over-year.
> ...


So how do you count eyeballs? more like a guess to me. At times we have the TV on and nobody is looking at it. Big game on but bad weather the sports bar may be empty.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

PCampbell said:


> So how do you count eyeballs? more like a guess to me.


All ratings are a guess ... just like poll results. A small sample is taken and the total is interpreted based on the results of the poll or survey. As long as the purchasers of the results accept the answers the ratings are valid.

For TV ratings they use "people meters" that register who or if someone is watching. I do not have one in my home ... so they don't know who is watching what on my TV - but they can make an educated guess based on people who do have the meters and other families who are part of the reporting system.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Looks like they are back as I am getting WSBK 38 again. Are the CBS O&O's back too? I don't live in an area with any CBS O&O.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Why does that matter? CNN was pulled of Dish during that period (~15M subs) and increased 34% while MSNBC which was added to replace CNN lost 13% from the year prior.
> 
> So blackouts of ~15M subs does NOT mean disaster for a Channel, And adding more subs, even when another channel is not available, does indicate success.


Ummm, no. Some of CNN's lowest ratings happened during the dispute. It's no coincidence they agreed to be back on DISH with no agreement in place within a few days of ongoing low ratings.

"Monday's 9pm ET timeslot on CNN drew 181,000 total viewers, the lowest for the time period since at least Oct. 1, 1991, as far back as Nielsen electronic records go." The date of this was November 13th. 
You have it backwards, FOX may not be desperate for DISH viewers but CNN is desperate for any viewers.

http://www.hangthebankers.com/cnn-plummets-to-lowest-ratings-in-23-years/


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

now that CBS and Dish reached a deal, now we can resolve the other disputes as in reach long term deals

Time Warner's Turner Broadcasting Systems, Nexstar Broadcasting and also Comcast/NBCUniversal's Comcast Sports Network RSNs are the only known disputes left to resolve to reach long term deals

Turner agreed to end the 1 month blackout of CNN, CNN en Espanol, HLN, Cartoon Network/Adult Swim, Boomerang TruTV, and Turner Classic Movies while avoiding a blackout of TNT and TBS. 

meanwhile the CSN RSNs reached a short term agreement a few days ago to avoid blackout for now. 

and not to mention, i'm sure there's more disputes that could be coming in the coming months that we don't know of yet, 

sure we are gonna get it in the A** unlubed, but at least we got our channels back.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

So what are you saying to DISH, just pay what the programmers want and have no more disputes?


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## camo (Apr 15, 2010)

James Long said:


> All ratings are a guess ... just like poll results. A small sample is taken and the total is interpreted based on the results of the poll or survey. As long as the purchasers of the results accept the answers the ratings are valid.
> 
> For TV ratings they use "people meters" that register who or if someone is watching. I do not have one in my home ... so they don't know who is watching what on my TV - but they can make an educated guess based on people who do have the meters and other families who are part of the reporting system.


 Directv receivers are part of the Neilsen ratings.

DirecTV says Nielsen to measure its viewership

Newswire

LOS ANGELES, July 28 (Reuters) - Satellite television service DirecTV, said on Monday that Nielsen Media Research, which charts audience viewing, will begin measuring viewership of advertiser-supported channels on the DirecTV system. In a statement, El Segundo, California-based DirecTV said having Nielsen monitor and publish viewer ratings for its channels should help boost its sales efforts because doing so will give advertisers a better idea of viewing habits of DirecTV subscribers. ...


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

tampa8 said:


> Ummm, no. Some of CNN's lowest ratings happened during the dispute. It's no coincidence they agreed to be back on DISH with no agreement in place within a few days of ongoing low ratings.
> 
> "Monday's 9pm ET timeslot on CNN drew 181,000 total viewers, the lowest for the time period since at least Oct. 1, 1991, as far back as Nielsen electronic records go." The date of this was November 13th. [/size]
> You have it backwards, FOX may not be desperate for DISH viewers but CNN is desperate for any viewers.[/size]
> ...


ROFLMAO

You pick out 1 Hour during a 4 week/672 hours that has its low ratings BECAUSE OF A PROGRAM CHANGE, not a Cable Disruption.

Furthermore, in that CNN 9 p.m. hour, which features a rotation of original series and occasionally an extended hour of "Anderson Cooper 360," beat MSNBC's Rachel Maddow in the demo.

CNN was up 34% from a year prior over the ENTIRE PERIOD and 55% IN DEMO - not 1/678 of the RATING PERIOD

That is all CNN cares about - not finding a needle in a haystack.

And let me give you a more credible source than "hangthebankers.com"

http://www.thewrap.com/cable-news-ratings-a-november-to-remember-for-megyn-kelly-don-lemon/


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

camo said:


> Directv receivers are part of the Neilsen ratings. DirecTV says Nielsen to measure its viewership
> 
> Newswire
> 
> LOS ANGELES, July 28 (Reuters) - Satellite television service DirecTV, said on Monday that Nielsen Media Research, which charts audience viewing, will begin measuring viewership of advertiser-supported channels on the DirecTV system. In a statement, El Segundo, California-based DirecTV said having Nielsen monitor and publish viewer ratings for its channels should help boost its sales efforts because doing so will give advertisers a better idea of viewing habits of DirecTV subscribers. ...


That's really quite confusing, specifically "DirecTV said having Nielsen monitor and publish viewer ratings for *its* channels should help boost _*its*_ sales efforts."

The "Nielsen ratings" generally discussed in the press still only involve the "Nielsen homes" described by Wikipedia as follows:



> Nielsen television ratings are gathered in one of two ways:
> 
> 
> Viewer "diaries", in which a target audience self-records its viewing or listening habits. By targeting various demographics, the assembled statistical models provide a rendering of the audiences of any given show, network, and programming hour.
> ...


Advertisers still resist paying for time-shifted viewing beyond "live+same day" though some do give credit for C-3 ratings (viewing of commercials-only, not the show, for up to three days).

The Nielsen folks have expanded to cover internet viewings and even testing out social media numbers. But advertisers are very conservative in what they will pay the networks for. That means the networks and others aren't willing to pay the costs for creative broader data gathering.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

PCampbell said:


> So how do you count eyeballs? more like a guess to me. At times we have the TV on and nobody is looking at it. Big game on but bad weather the sports bar may be empty.


The meters require the all members of the Nielsen Household to press a button when in the room and continue to press it every so often. Otherwise, it is assumed they are not in the room.

The random sample is chosen according to very strict guidelines to provide a balanced sample. Respondents are chosen by Address and Nielsen goes out of their way to contact the Household at that address and try to get them to participate in the sample. And yes, the metered households are compensated as equipment has to be connected to all their Televisions for viewing.

The meters can tell what you are watching and when you are watching. For example, if you are watching The Big Bang Theory from a DVR, it knows which Big Bang Theory you are watching, that it was recorded at 8PM and you are watching it 3 days later, Sunday a 10AM.

Obviously, the Fast Overnight Numbers available the next day do not include viewing after 3AM that morning.

However, DVR usage is not a high as most people believe. Every study has seen that. In a 3rd Quarter Study released last week of over 300,000 Americans found the Average time watching live TV a day is roughly 4:30 while the average time watching a DVR daily is roughly 30 minutes. Live TV was down about 14 minutes and DVR time was up 4 minutes. This is in line with other studies.

There are roughly 1000 Metered HOUSEHOLDS (which obviously can contain multiple people in a Household) in NYC and LA that are connected to Electronic Meters recording virtually every second of viewing to roughly 400 Metered HOUSEHOLDS in Oklahoma City.

As thus, out of household viewing is NOT accounted for in the Overnight Ratings.

Nielsen experimented in 2 markets this year using a Personal People Meter that is similar to an beeper that each Panel member wears which detects a watermark in TV Channels and Radio Station to register when someone is viewing. That does work at Home, Office and in a Bar. This is the same system that Radio has used in the Top 48 Markets since roughly 2010 with a larger panel.

That way there is no button to push. If you can hear the TV Audio, you are considered viewing. If you walk out of the room, you are not.

This was a test only and has not implemented, but it is expected it probably will in the future.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> The situation is more complicated than that. One would need to look at ALL of the influences year to year and take everything into account.
> 
> What was in the news in November of 2013? CNN tends to do better when there is breaking news ... they are a "go to network" for people who don't watch the news and don't have a regular "I watch this channel every day" type of news channel. Shockingly enough, NEWS is the best thing for CNN's ratings. They tend to overuse the "Breaking News" banner - but that is why a large part of their audience tunes in. Something happened and the non-news junkies tune in to find out what is going on.
> 
> Nothing happens in a vacuum. If being off DISH helped CNN's ratings Turner could simply cut the feed.


Did not say that being off HELPS ratings.

But it did prove that being off DISH did NOT NEGATIVELY EFFECT THE RATINGS and "screw the advertisers" as most on this forum have contended.

Furthermore, MSNBC which was substituted on DISH for the CNN Blackout took a HIT even with more potential viewers.

So all the blanket statements about how a Channel is hurt by a blackout have no basis in fact.

And the advertisers still get the audience they contracted for - so they do not get screwed either.

The Dish subs are the only ones that end up getting screwed.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

phrelin said:


> That's really quite confusing, specifically "DirecTV said having Nielsen monitor and publish viewer ratings for *its* channels should help boost _*its*_ sales efforts."
> 
> The "Nielsen ratings" generally discussed in the press still only involve the "Nielsen homes" described by Wikipedia as follows:
> 
> ...


Why is that confusing. And isn't this a Dish Forum?

DirecTV with roughly 18% of the USA TV Households already has families in the sample that use DirecTV as an MVPD.

Nielsen has been trying to sell local spots in markets now for about 2 years.

If the DirecTV viewers are broken out from the overall sample, DirecTV can show potential advertisers what type of ratings it can deliver in the market and try to sell advertising in that market.

Likewise, they can use national numbers for selling National Ads in the local breaks. So instead of seeing ads promoting shows on other DirecTV channels - or PPV movies (or HBO as their contract calls for certain marketing levels from DirecTV - see different thread), DirecTV would try to sell those National Slots as well, where once again, posting assures that the proper GRP were obtained for the campaign.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> So all the blanket statements about how a Channel is hurt by a blackout have no basis in fact.


Including the blanket statement you are making now? 
Most blanket statements have some basis in fact. The person making the statement may not have come to a correct conclusion based on the facts they saw. But most people have a grain of fact somewhere that they use as a basis.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Why is that confusing. And isn't this a Dish Forum?


If it makes it easier to discuss, DISH also monitors viewing habits (without identifying the customers). On the newest receivers they share their results with the subscriber base by providing a "What's Hot" feature. The top program in my market at the moment is Ohio St vs Wisconsin (FOX) followed by It's a Wonderful Life (NBC) and Florida St vs Georgia Tech (ABC). Nationally Florida St vs Georgia Tech is #1 followed by Ohio St vs Wisconsin. Mr Stewart's movie is in seventh nationally.

Does Nielson use numbers from DISH, DirecTV and other sources that do not include demographics? From the wording of DirecTV's press release it sounded like DirecTV used those numbers internally to sell advertising on DirecTV. DISH would do the same (on channels where they are permitted to sell ads).


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> If it makes it easier to discuss, DISH also monitors viewing habits (without identifying the customers). On the newest receivers they share their results with the subscriber base by providing a "What's Hot" feature. The top program in my market at the moment is Ohio St vs Wisconsin (FOX) followed by It's a Wonderful Life (NBC) and Florida St vs Georgia Tech (ABC). Nationally Florida St vs Georgia Tech is #1 followed by Ohio St vs Wisconsin. Mr Stewart's movie is in seventh nationally.
> 
> Does Nielson use numbers from DISH, DirecTV and other sources that do not include demographics? From the wording of DirecTV's press release it sounded like DirecTV used those numbers internally to sell advertising on DirecTV. DISH would do the same (on channels where they are permitted to sell ads).


Data without Demo is useless.

Nielsen's sample is very scientific in nature. Research is only as good as the sample (as seen in some election polls) and Nielsen spends an extraordinary amount on designing the sample.

If they were to let Dish or DirecTV dump all the data from their subs in, it would skew the sample with a number of unknown variables that may or may not be representative of the Nation as a whole.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Which gets us back to what was stated before ... Nielson does their surveys for the national figures given (with their sampling providing an educated guess as to what is going on outside of the monitored sample). DISH, DirecTV and other collectors use their data for their own sales efforts.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> Which gets us back to what was stated before ... Nielson does their surveys for the national figures given (with their sampling providing an educated guess as to what is going on outside of the monitored sample). DISH, DirecTV and other collectors use their data for their own sales efforts.


No, there are daily numbers for all channels on a local level as well.

Also, it is an Estimate, which is alot more than a guess.

It can be proven statistically valid because of the care taken in the sample design to represent the total universe (sample).


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> Including the blanket statement you are making now?
> Most blanket statements have some basis in fact. The person making the statement may not have come to a correct conclusion based on the facts they saw. But most people have a grain of fact somewhere that they use as a basis.


There were muliple statement in this thread and the Turner thread that the Blackout hurt Advertisers because of lower audiences.

I have shown that those blanket statements are not correct.

Furthermore as multiple posts have no idea how Ad posting works, they are also wrong on the Advertiser getting screwed.

As pointed out, the only one getting screwed is the Dish Customer.


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

I still have CBS station.


Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> If it makes it easier to discuss, DISH also monitors viewing habits (without identifying the customers). On the newest receivers they share their results with the subscriber base by providing a "What's Hot" feature. The top program in my market at the moment is Ohio St vs Wisconsin (FOX) followed by It's a Wonderful Life (NBC) and Florida St vs Georgia Tech (ABC). Nationally Florida St vs Georgia Tech is #1 followed by Ohio St vs Wisconsin. Mr Stewart's movie is in seventh nationally.
> 
> Does Nielson use numbers from DISH, DirecTV and other sources that do not include demographics? From the wording of DirecTV's press release it sounded like DirecTV used those numbers internally to sell advertising on DirecTV. DISH would do the same (on channels where they are permitted to sell ads).


These numbers are very rough, which is why they are not accepted for anything involving revenue.

Furthermore, they would screw up the carefully constructed sample.

I visited some friend's in the Tampa Bay Area (of which Sarasota is a part of) a while ago. They had FiOS.

In the Tampa DMA, WFTS is the ABC Affilliate for the entire DMA, but WWSB in Sarasota also has an ABC Affiliation (although WWSB ABC feeds are blacked out in Tampa/St. Petersburg/Clearwater are).

Under the so called hottest rankings, the #1 slot was taken by a College Football Game on WWSB which is only fed to the Sarasota-Bradenton Area. An infomercial was #2. #3 was the same College Football Game on WFTS available in the entire Tampa Bay DMA.

Needless to say, from a pure availability basis, that was virtually impossible. And an infomercial was beating the game in Tampa proper? lol.

And that is with FiOS, with a digital ability to monitor EVERY channel in real time - unlike DirecTV or Dish which does not have that ability.

Furthermore the Nielsen meters are accurate down to the virtual second level, which can be seen lined up with News Stories on a Newscast.

DirecTV or Dish data would be of no use in a system that precise.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> I have shown that those blanket statements are not correct.


You have expressed your opinion. Thank you.
Disagreement with your opinion is acceptable.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

So basically it all turned out to much ado about nothing it seems. Such is the case more times than not. I did see that the Smithsonian Channel was included in the agreement so I guess that means Dish customers will get that back, I'm sure there's gotta be one or two people who'll be happy about that.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

Let's not forget that CBS was demanding a hike in the price of what they supposedly provide FREE over-the-air.

If people ever start discovering, en-masse, that digital TV is not the same as their old-fashioned analog, snowy, multi-pathed (ghosted) SD images, it'll be doomsday for the Big 4 Networks.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

tsmacro said:


> So basically it all turned out to much ado about nothing it seems. Such is the case more times than not. I did see that the Smithsonian Channel was included in the agreement so I guess that means Dish customers will get that back, I'm sure there's gotta be one or two people who'll be happy about that.


also included was Showtime VOD and Showtime Anytime (or is that anywhere??) 

They aren't in place yet, but hopefully soon, and I don't mean Dish/Direct 'soon'!!


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## Ray_Schwarz (Jan 22, 2003)

So the net result is that Comercial skipping is not available for a week.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Ray_Schwarz said:


> So the net result is that Comercial skipping is not available for a week.


Only Autohop won't be available. You can still skip them the same way we've been doing for years. It's amazing I haven't worn out more 60 second skip buttons on the Dish remotes.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

So one have to wonder what other channel is closeby to it's contract expiring and a threat to get pulled routine
beside 4 CSN RSN's and Nexstar :contract:


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

acostapimps said:


> I don't get both Directv and Dish when a price hike happens but still have disputes, then why give the "We're fighting to keep prices lower for customers" speech, I know that content owners are asking for ridiculous prices per sub,
> But why say something you can't promise on.


The new deal will still always cost more money then the previous deal, so prices are going to increase anyways when these disputes happen. Say CBS wanted 60% more then the previous deal, and they en up settling on a 30% increase after a dispute. You can be happy that Dish didn't roll over and paid the full 60%, but the 30% increase on that deal still need to be paid, and they will be coming from your pockets.

Now there are also deals being done that you don't hear about. Media company xyz may only ask for a 30% increase, and before any alarm bells start sounding they ink a deal for 15% increase and no one is complaining, no one cares, and life goes on. Of course that increase will still be recovered from the customers.

So yes, those subscribing to television and paying for a channel package, will see increases no matter what. Dish has actually been rather good in recent years and didn't increase price EVERY year like DirecTV did, but they may not be able to stave off price increases next year.


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## mwdxer (Oct 30, 2013)

Is there are newer comparison list between what channels Dish has compared to Direct? I would be interested in knowing what channels Dish has that Direct has.


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## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

maartena said:


> The new deal will still always cost more money then the previous deal, so prices are going to increase anyways when these disputes happen. Say CBS wanted 60% more then the previous deal, and they en up settling on a 30% increase after a dispute. You can be happy that Dish didn't roll over and paid the full 60%, but the 30% increase on that deal still need to be paid, and they will be coming from your pockets.


I know that those numbers, 60% and 30% are just numbers picked out of the air, but expect that the real numbers are much lower than that.

I think what everyone is forgetting is that the Federal Reserve is printing new money every day which reduces the value of the current dollar and causes inflation of all, or most all prices of everything at the grocery store, etc. Our beloved government, oops, I meant bloated government has seen fit to claim inflation was 1.7% last year so that is what us senior citizens will be seeing in our SS monthly checks.

Those of us on Social Security mostly are living on a fixed income find that the actual inflation seems to far exceed what the "BG" is telling us. I remember when a cup of coffee at the local diner was just a nickel a cup with free refils, I know, I know, that makes me really old and coffee is a world market item subject to growing conditions and international trade which makes it a poor comparison, but maybe you get the point. In, I think it was, 1955, I bought a brand new top of the line Plymouth Fury for $5000. That comparable car now-a-days would cost around $25000.

Anyway, my point is that prices will always go up for everything as long as there is inflation. The real problem, it seems to me, is that too many suppliers of our TV entertainment want to increases the prices way above inflation levels. I think that is where Charlie balks and tries to force a better deal for us users (viewers). :angel:

Luckily my wife and I invested our money when we were in the earning stage of our lives and don't live on the SS check every month.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Yeah, that 1.7% is a totally bogus, politically jiggered number. What makes it even funnier/sadder is that the gov't claims the CPI it is based on overestimates and the number should be lower.


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

Grandude said:


> I think what everyone is forgetting is that the Federal Reserve is printing new money every day which reduces the value of the current dollar and causes inflation of all, or most all prices of everything at the grocery store, etc. Our beloved government, oops, I meant bloated government has seen fit to claim inflation was 1.7% last year so that is what us senior citizens will be seeing in our SS monthly checks.
> 
> Those of us on Social Security mostly are living on a fixed income find that the actual inflation seems to far exceed what the "BG" is telling us. I remember when a cup of coffee at the local diner was just a nickel a cup with free refils, I know, I know, that makes me really old and coffee is a world market item subject to growing conditions and international trade which makes it a poor comparison, but maybe you get the point. In, I think it was, 1955, I bought a brand new top of the line Plymouth Fury for $5000. That comparable car now-a-days would cost around $25000.


According to those "claimed" inflation numbers, $5000 in 1955 is about $40,000 today. So you're complaining that the inflation numbers are too high? A modest number taken to the 59th power can become a rather significant one.

Of course comparing a modern car to an old one is a pretty complicated exercise too. I was watching a car show yesterday where they were "restoring" a late 1970s car for someone but in the process of restoring it, they replaced things like the entire suspension and braking system with entirely different designs and components because, they said: "The cheap car that you rent at the airport today can out-corner and out-brake anything from the 70s."

Not to mention more horsepower per gallon, way lower emissions, better safety equipment, bodies that aren't rusted before you drive them off the dealer lot etc. Even my low-end Subaru has USB ports, Blue Tooth, dialing by voice, and other stuff that my higher-end cars of the past didn't have.

For my retirement planing, I've always used 3.5% as my assumed average inflation factor. 1.035^59 = 7.6 which would put the $5K car at $38K. So my assumed average number seems reasonable (for the past at least, )

As far as I can tell (I'm retired) inflation does look reasonably low right now. For example, both my natural gas and gasoline prices have gone down. The Android phone that I bought for $100 does more than my $3500 PC of the 1990s, and the $8/month cell phone bill is the same as what I was paying in 2000, only in 2000 I received fewer minutes and NO data.

Two things that have been well above the average rate have been TV and health care. My health insurance premiums went up 20-22% per year for over a decade. Since the affordable care act, they are going up at rate much closer to average inflation but it's too soon to know for sure if that problem has been solved for the long run. TV will probably continue to go up, but then, it's just TV so I guess the idea there is you can just drop it (or reduce it) when it gets too high.


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## Orion9 (Jan 31, 2011)

A couple of thoughts about coffee.

A cup of coffee in a restaurant seems to be a favorite of people who think inflation is super high. But if you picked the price of water in a restaurant then the rate of inflation will typically come out to &#8230; zero - in most restaurants in the US at least. This just shows that tracking inflation is complicated - you have to track many things and in proper proportions.

According to the can of coffee I just bought, it works out to be about $0.04 per cup. One would imagine that back in our childhood it was probably less than 1 cent a cup. So a couple of thoughts based on that:

If the price of restaurant coffee is getting to you, drink coffee at home and get water in the restaurant.

The reason that coffee in the restaurant was much cheaper in the past than today could be more marketing than anything else. Starbucks etc. has made coffee a big deal. Also, perhaps before they were giving it away cheaply to get you in the restaurant. For example, years ago I used to have to go to Las Vegas for trade shows and we used to eat at huge excellent buffets for $2. Recently I went back with some friends and when we arrived and didn't know where to eat, I said "why don't we just go to the buffet?" Well the "just" turned out to be the wrong word because the buffet now costs something like 10 times what I remembered! Why? Well apparently they used to use the $2 buffet to keep people in the casino day and night. But then busses were arriving from old folks' homes and they all walked right past the casinos and had the great $2 dinner and left. So the great $2 dinner is no more. But it never really was a great $2 dinner. It was a $2 marketing plan that broke down. 

By the way, if you think the CPI is too low now, keep an eye on your elected representatives because quite a few of them have suggested switching to a _slower_ index for social security increases. Yep, it can get worse!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Also... on coffee... people price based on the expensive coffee... which largely didn't exist as a market pre-Starbucks... coffee, generic general coffee hasn't risen in price to the same degree as fancy coffee drinks have.

Lots of other products are cheaper too... Coke and Pepsi have gone up in price over time... but the nickel Coke that my father would have bought as a kid was harder to get a nickel to pay for than a 50-cent Coke would be today... so even if you compare a 10-fold price increase that isn't fully appreciating the situation.

I also bought a generic brand loaf of bread recently for less than a dollar... Premium bread costs a lot more... but bread, generic "cheap" bread costs proportionally less than it did in the past.

TV is a luxury item, not a staple... and luxury items do not strictly follow the inflation curve anyway.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Also... on coffee... people price based on the expensive coffee... which largely didn't exist as a market pre-Starbucks... coffee, generic general coffee hasn't risen in price to the same degree as fancy coffee drinks have.
> 
> Lots of other products are cheaper too... Coke and Pepsi have gone up in price over time... but the nickel Coke that my father would have bought as a kid was harder to get a nickel to pay for than a 50-cent Coke would be today... so even if you compare a 10-fold price increase that isn't fully appreciating the situation.
> 
> ...


Let me know where you can still find a bottle of coke in a machine for 50 cents. $1.00-$1.25 is the norm for a BOTTLE out of a vending machine.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Ray_Schwarz said:


> So the net result is that Comercial skipping is not available for a week.


The net result is CBS is not available on Charlie's NuTV OTT cable service, which was the holdup.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Let me know where you can still find a bottle of coke in a machine for 50 cents. $1.00-$1.25 is the norm for a BOTTLE out of a vending machine.


Stewart didn't say the 50c Coke was a bottle. 



Stewart Vernon said:


> Lots of other products are cheaper too... Coke and Pepsi have gone up in price over time... but the nickel Coke that my father would have bought as a kid was harder to get a nickel to pay for than a 50-cent Coke would be today... so even if you compare a 10-fold price increase that isn't fully appreciating the situation.


(That being said, finding a brand name 12 oz can of soda in a vending machine for 50c is rare.)

Here is the Coca-Cola company's story of the 5 cent coke (a price that stood for 70 years).
http://www.coca-colacompany.com/history/2008/01/the-5-cent-coke.html

Good reading while we get back to the topic of CBS ...


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> The net result is CBS is not available on Charlie's NuTV OTT cable service, which was the holdup.


What is Charlie's NUTV cable OTT cable service?

Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SeaBeagle said:


> What is Charlie's NUTV cable OTT cable service?


"NuTV" is the reported brand name of DISH's planned "over the top" IPTV delivery service.
Mr Idiot is suggesting that the deal CBS made with DISH excludes them from the OTT offering.
The reality is that inclusion in OTT is still under negotiation.

_From Variety:_
The companies' announcement did not address whether Dish has OTT rights to CBS programming. According to a source familiar with the deal, CBS will negotiate with Dish in good faith for Internet TV rights if and when the satellite carrier launches an OTT service. Dish has said it plans to launch an OTT service before the end of 2014, having secured deals with Disney/ESPN, Scripps Networks Interactive and A+E Networks.

Financial terms of the deal are not being disclosed. The sticking points in the talks, which dragged on for months and included two short-term extensions granted by CBS last month, were as much about digital content rights issues as about retrans dollars and cents.
http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/cbs-dish-reach-carriage-deal-1201372651/


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

Grandude said:


> I know that those numbers, 60% and 30% are just numbers picked out of the air, but expect that the real numbers are much lower than that.


Yes, they were picked out of the air, because the exact numbers are usually not disclosed. However, those percentages are not uncommon. Not too long ago, a media group that owned 20-odd local stations, mainly in the Washington State area, wanted a 600% increase, or 6 times they were receiving now, from DirecTV. The stations went black for a good 6 weeks I believe.

Although the costs is usually not disclosed, there have been some articles over the years that shed some light on the average costs and the increases.

Here are articles from 2010 and 2014:

http://allthingsd.com/20100308/hate-paying-for-cable-heres-the-reason-why/
http://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/how-much-cable-subscribers-pay-per-channel-1626/

Some price differences:

TNT in 2010: $0.99
TNT in 2014: $1.48

USA in 2010: $0.55
USA in 2014: $0.83

Disney Channel in 2010: $0.88
Disney Channel in 2014: $1.21

ESPN in 2010: $4.08
ESPN in 2014: $6.04

Now, these are averages, compiled from different sources, based on what was found in the media and press releases and/or leaked info, but it does give you an idea.

As you can see, the increases in price as opposed to 4 years ago are along the lines of 25-35%, so it is really not unthinkable that the channel owners demanded a 50-60% increase and settled at a price around half of that.

Interestingly, the 2010 article mentions that 40% of the pricing of cable, goes to sports. So in essence, if you don't really watch sports much, 40% of your bill will go to sports you won't ever watch. That figure probably hasn't gone down over the last 4 years, as a matter of fact I suspect it is closer to 50% now.

Now if you love sports, there is no question that you will need a cable or satellite subscription. But if you could care less about sports, and you add to that all the other channels you don't ever watch, but still pay for, there is a good chance that you only get about 30% worth of the money you spend on cable. And in the field of economics, that is a really really lousy rate of return and a bad investment.  (but then again, so is a car.)

It's not getting any cheaper, that's for sure. Even the biggest deniers are now saying cord-cutting is happening, because people are just fed up paying for expensive packages, that gives them no choice, mandatory (expensive) channels they may not want, and disputes when they are least convenient.


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## maartena (Nov 1, 2010)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Let me know where you can still find a bottle of coke in a machine for 50 cents. $1.00-$1.25 is the norm for a BOTTLE out of a vending machine.


The difference between your analogy and the price of a bottle of coke, and price increases of channels over the last 4-5 years, is that the price of channels (see articles listed above) has risen by about 30-40%, and the bottle of coke has not.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> "NuTV" is the reported brand name of DISH's planned "over the top" IPTV delivery service.
> Mr Idiot is suggesting that the deal CBS made with DISH excludes them from the OTT offering.
> The reality is that inclusion in OTT is still under negotiation.
> 
> ...


Incorrect. It has been widely reported that CBS is excluded from NuTV and that was the holdup, much like I posted on this thread Friday.

Even Variety says as much when it talks of digital content rights.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

maartena said:


> The difference between your analogy and the price of a bottle of coke, and price increases of channels over the last 4-5 years, is that the price of channels (see articles listed above) has risen by about 30-40%, and the bottle of coke has not.


Was not my analogy. Direct to the correct person.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

5 cents in 1960 is approximately 40 cents today. The 5 cent coke in the 1950s was 6.5 oz. At CPI rate of inflation 12 oz at the 1960 price would be 73.8 cents today. 20 oz would be $1.23.

Based on the above math, a 12 pack of 12 oz cans would be $8.86. A 24 pack would be $17.71. One can generally do better than that on price.

For the "ice cold Coca Cola" the price has kept pace with inflation. By the can or bottle from a vending machine 75c per can or $1.25 per bottle are typical prices I have seen. There are "convenience stores" that charge more. (I usually walk away or bring my own from home.) Case prices have beat inflation (although one can usually find a rip off price).


On the other hand, the price of CBS has skyrocketed since 1960.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> On the other hand, the price of CBS has skyrocketed since 1960.


Every MVPD channel has increased by an infinitesimal amount since 1960.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Incorrect. It has been widely reported that CBS is excluded from NuTV and that was the holdup, much like I posted on this thread Friday.


Claims without references? Where are the attributions to sources? Where are the links?



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Even Variety says as much when it talks of digital content rights.


At least Variety puts their name on their story ... and if you read what is written they say "CBS will negotiate with Dish in good faith for Internet TV rights if and when the satellite carrier launches an OTT service." Which is not the same as your claim "The net result is CBS is not available on Charlie's NuTV OTT cable service."

Nothing is available on DISH's NuTV since the service has not been launched. Correcting for grammar you are claiming CBS will not be part of NuTV. Whether or not CBS will be part of the service WHEN launched is still up for negotiation - just like reputable people are reporting.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> Claims without references? Where are the attributions to sources? Where are the links?
> 
> At least Variety puts their name on their story ... and if you read what is written they say "CBS will negotiate with Dish in good faith for Internet TV rights if and when the satellite carrier launches an OTT service." Which is not the same as your claim "The net result is CBS is not available on Charlie's NuTV OTT cable service."
> 
> Nothing is available on DISH's NuTV since the service has not been launched. Correcting for grammar you are claiming CBS will not be part of NuTV. Whether or not CBS will be part of the service WHEN launched is still up for negotiation - just like reputable people are reporting.


Read it and weep.

https://gigaom.com/2014/12/06/cbs-and-dish-reach-deal-but-dont-include-internet-tv-service/


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

Or this one:

https://gigaom.com/2014/12/05/why-cbs-went-dark-on-dish-its-all-about-the-internet/


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

And the fact that on Friday Night I said that Autohop for 3 days gone - done deal. I also stated the bigger question would C7 be gone. . Note no one had ever mentioned that. Most did not know what it was. But Saturday morning, Autohop is disabled for the C7 period.

Guess I just pulled that one out of my ass as well?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> https://gigaom.com/2014/12/06/cbs-and-dish-reach-deal-but-dont-include-internet-tv-service/


A story posted Saturday - which could not be the basis of what you stated on Friday. The article also leaves open the door for CBS to be on NuTV but stating "it now looks like" CBS won't be on NuTV - not a definitive CBS will never be on NuTV.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> https://gigaom.com/2014/12/05/why-cbs-went-dark-on-dish-its-all-about-the-internet/


The same source from Friday before the deal was announced. The article contains unsourced speculation about the issues involved.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Let me know where you can still find a bottle of coke in a machine for 50 cents. $1.00-$1.25 is the norm for a BOTTLE out of a vending machine.


James did most of the legwork... Thanks, James!

I also would add that my out wasn't going to be can vs bottle... but vending machines are overpriced ways to get drinks these days.

I can buy a 6-pack of 0.5 liter bottles of Coke for $2.50-$3.00 routinely... even at the $3 price that comes to 50 cents a bottle. I can also get 2 liter bottles for $1 which is a much better deal too. The point essentially being that I can afford Coke easier now than when I was a kid 30+ years ago... and absolutely more affordable than when my Dad was a kid in the previous generation.

Also... I can buy a laptop PC for <$500 and I couldn't buy a bottom of the line computer which was not even remotely comparable in function 30 years ago for that price.

Some stuff goes up... some stuff goes down... some stuff goes up BUT is more affordable as it hasn't kept up with inflation.

That's why general statements are bad. Also why I reminded that luxury items follow a different model than staples... luxury items might be wanted by many, maybe even all, but they aren't needed by most... so luxury items like pay-TV command their own pricing model that doesn't have to be reflected in inflation or other luxury items even.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> A story posted Saturday - which could not be the basis of what you stated on Friday. The article also leaves open the door for CBS to be on NuTV but stating "it now looks like" CBS won't be on NuTV - not a definitive CBS will never be on NuTV.
> 
> The same source from Friday before the deal was announced. The article contains unsourced speculation about the issues involved.


Perhaps I had different sources. Just because the article did not have it until Saturday does NOT mean I did not know it Friday, just like C7 / Autohop, which had been published NOWHERE except my post on Friday.

Furthermore, you stated that no reputable source had said NuTV was the holdup, as i stated during the Blackout. I simply proved you incorrect, AGAIN.


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> I still have "AutoHop" on all ABC programs ... but my local ABC is an affiliate not an O&O. I suspect that any deal CBS makes will also only affect their O&Os.


Guess you were wrong about this as well.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Perhaps I had different sources.


Then you should have posted your sources ... not other places that posted something similar after your posts. Without sources YOU are the source.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Just because the article did not have it until Saturday does NOT mean I did not know it Friday, just like C7 / Autohop, which had been published NOWHERE except my post on Friday.


Some would call that a "lucky guess" ... or revisionist history.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> Furthermore, you stated that no reputable source had said NuTV was the holdup, as i stated during the Blackout. I simply proved you incorrect, AGAIN.


There are plenty of sites on the Internet where non-reputable people post their guesses.



SomeRandomIdiot said:


> > I still have "AutoHop" on all ABC programs ... but my local ABC is an affiliate not an O&O. I suspect that any deal CBS makes will also only affect their O&Os.
> 
> 
> Guess you were wrong about this as well.


Can you name ONE non-O&O ABC affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C3?
Can you name ONE non-O&O CBS affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C7?

Thanks for admitting that you are guessing ... but unless a non-O&O loses auto-hop I'm not wrong.

(I am not saying than a non-O&O will never negotiate a delayed auto-hop deal similar to the one that ABC and CBS have negotiated. Only that the ABC and CBS network deals will not affect non-O&O stations. Past performance, my ABC station still having auto-hop a few hours after air - not C3, is indicative of future performance, my CBS being unaffected by the deal CBS corporate cut with DISH for O&Os.)


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## SomeRandomIdiot (Jan 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> Then you should have posted your sources ... not other places that posted something similar after your posts. Without sources YOU are the source.


Comical. Considering you will not post your sources in other threads (and support others who do not post their sources.



James Long said:


> Some would call that a "lucky guess" ... or revisionist history.


Considering you are the only one of us that can "revise" history, by deleting comments, banning people from threads where you are wrong and closing threads so you will not have to admit being wrong.

But regardless, considering I made a post with 1 item about C7, which came out of the blue, that was a lucky guess? ROFLMAO.

If that was the case, I just would have said C3. That had a higher probability at the time to the general public.



James Long said:


> There are plenty of sites on the Internet where non-reputable people post their guesses.


Like you, here?



James Long said:


> Can you name ONE non-O&O ABC affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C3?
> Can you name ONE non-O&O CBS affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C7?
> 
> Thanks for admitting that you are guessing ... but unless a non-O&O loses auto-hop I'm not wrong.
> ...


Please bookmark this as you are already wrong and only digging yourself in deeper.

Perhaps you should have read the statements.

At least WestDC did.



WestDC said:


> DISH's AutoHop commercial-skipping functionality will not be available for CBS Television Network-owned stations *and affiliates* during the C7 window.
> 
> What really matters to CBS :rolling: more so than increased carry fee's


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Funny ... but the ABC announcement earlier this year said auto-hop would be disabled "on all ABC content" - and the only people who lost auto-hop (for the duration of C3 only) was on ABC O&Os. I'll believe it when I see it.

Can you name ONE non-O&O ABC affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C3?
Can you name ONE non-O&O CBS affiliate that has auto-hop delayed for C7?

The correct answer is no. You cannot name a non-O&O affiliate with auto-hop disabled C3 or C7.

And that is the way it is, Thursday, December 11th, 2014. Good morning.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

The auto hop disable will likely come to all affiliates as contracts renew and now Id bet everyone will want c7....

I'd also bet that the will negotiate in good faith is as much a joke as DIRECTV picking up the Sony channels. Dish couldn't get them to agree so had to give up with an agreement they could be negotiated separately. CBS will
Never give in to what dish wants for that service they will only let dish do it on their terms is my guess. But we will never really know.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

From the investor advice website Motley Fool comes this story today How DISH Betrayed Customers To Strike A Deal With CBS:



> ...CBS convinced DISH to temporarily disable its ad-skipping DVR viewing features for CBS-owned content. Recorded CBS shows will only enjoy DISH's automatic ad-skipping technology seven days after the original broadcast.
> 
> ...In the long run, DISH is undermining the value of its Hopper DVR platform. The company signed another feature-neutered agreement with Walt Disney (NYSE: DIS ) over the summer, limiting the ad-skipping feature on popular Disney-owned stations like ABC and ESPN. If this becomes standard operating procedure for DISH, the company will eventually lose most of the promotional value of having invented the ad-skip system in the first place.
> 
> Moving forward, I'll keep a close eye on DISH's broadcast contract renewals. Consumers don't exactly love commercial breaks, making the Hopper ad removals an attractive selling point.


This is, of course, the real loss for Dish. A sales pitch that essentially says "unlike other DVR's in a few days to a week after a show airs, the Hopper can automatically skip commercials" isn't much of a sales pitch. The article suggests Dish's "satellite-less TV service delivered over the Internet" might offset this, but then notes that while the Disney/ABC/ESPN deal included significant streaming rights, CBS only agreed to continue talking all the while cranking up its CBS All Access streaming service.

One has to wonder how competitive Dish will be by 2020. In my situation, I don't see how we could use any Dish streaming service without our Comcast internet. Using the Comcast Xfinity data usage calculator it is clear that we would be limited to about 30 hours of streaming HD a month without running up against the theoretical (now suspended) 250 GB per month streaming limit which I have to assume remains a significant per customer number that Comcast Xfinity is evaluating. Of course, for the rest of my life that limit may remain suspended.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

and now it's time for the affiliate retrans agreements..
Our local CBS / FOX station owner (they have other stations in Charlotte and Wilmington that I know of) are running a crawl at the bottom of the screen about "Dish is pushing us around"...yada yada....


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The problem with such articles as that... is they are from a point of ignorance, and then people reading it who don't know better eat up that statement.

Dish was always intending to use AutoHop as leverage in negotiations. Customers can skip commercials manually the same way they always have with no restrictions... AutoHop was a "one click" version of that... so by no means was it the awesome feature some made it out to be. Was it neat? Sure... but I can skip commercials anytime I want if I use the fwd/back keys on the remote. That hasn't changed.

But to people writing those types of articles, they don't mention any of that... they just go for the one bone and pick that to death... and enough people who don't know any better will read that and think it means something else.

This "crippling" of AutoHop in no way makes the Hopper significantly less cool or useful than it was before the deal was done. Hopper didn't even launch with AutoHop, but no one remembers that now... It was an added feature intended to scare networks into negotiating from a lower starting point. Most people who think about it for a few minutes can see that, and realize they really aren't losing anything and are gaining some money in the pocket as those retransmission fees come in at lower prices as a result.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Stewart Vernon said:


> Dish was always intending to use AutoHop as leverage in negotiations.


I don't recall that being in a press release or marketing of the feature.

I remember the early threads about the feature trying to direct people who read the bold print ads for "commercial free TV" and didn't read the small print disclaimers that said only four networks and available the next day. The current description is soft:

*Watch Commercial-Free TV*
Hate commercials? Only the Hopper® gives you the power to instantly skip commercials1 in recorded primetime TV - ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC. Plus, you can record 8 different shows at the same time and store up to 2,000 hours of your favorite shows.

The footnote:
1 Commercial skip feature is only available with playback the next day of select primetime shows on ABC, CBS, FOX and NBC as part of PrimeTime Anytime feature. Both features are subject to availability. Recording hours vary; 2000 hours based on SD programming. Feature must be enabled by customer.

And now the compromise ... ABC O&Os delayed three days, CBS delayed seven days? I suppose that is covered under "Both features are subject to availability." I don't recall seeing a press release or advertising that said AutoHop was a negotiable feature that would be taken away by DISH as needed to satisfy the networks. I do recall DISH filing suit to keep the feature ... and constantly reminding us every time there is a positive ruling in court how important and critical AutoHop is.

Critical until they negotiate it away?


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Well, yeah... they never came right out and said it... but it seemed pretty clear and I am pretty sure I said something way way back that I bet Dish was going to use it as a negotiating tactic the next time contracts came up with those channels... and that's what we have been seeing.


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

*DISH will make changes between Dec. 17 and Feb. 28 to the AutoHop feature for certain CBS stations on Hopper systems. *When the change occurs in each of these DMAs, the AutoHop feature will not be available until approximately seven days following the time of a primetime show's initial airing.

This change will begin rolling out to certain CBS Corporation owned-and-operated stations first (see schedule below). The CBS affiliates in the remaining DMAs will experience this change by Feb. 28. *AutoHop changes coming for certain CBS stations *

*DMA *

*Station *

*Channel Number *

*Effective Date *

*Orbital Location *

*Baltimore *

WJZ

13

Dec. 17

61.5° / 110°

*Boston *

WBZ

4

Dec. 29

*Miami *

WFOR

4

Jan. 5, 2015

119°

*Minneapolis *

WCCO

4

61.5° / 110° / 129°

*Philadelphia *

KYW

3

61.5° / 110°

*San Francisco *

KPIX

5

110° / 119°

*Pittsburgh *

KDKA

2

61.5° / 110° / 129°

*Detroit *

WWJ

62

*Chicago *

WBBM

2

Jan. 6, 2015

61.5° / 119° / 129°

*Dallas *

KTVT

11

61.5° / 110°

*Denver *

KCNC

4

110° / 129°

*Los Angeles *

KCBS

2

119° / 129°

*New York *

WCBS

2

61.5° / 119°

*Sacramento, Calif. *

KOVR

13

110°

*CBS affiliates *
*in other markets *

-

-

by Feb. 28

-


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Well that copy and paste job didn't end up looking at all what it did before I hit "post". Oh well basic premise is that Dish is rolling out the new 7 day delay for autohop for CBS stations between now and Feb 28th.


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## BobCulp (Dec 21, 2013)

This is for CBS viewers in the Indianapolis area. Your CBS programming is changing stations tonight at midnight: http://indianas4.com/2014/12/31/cbs-moves-to-wttv-on-jan-1-2015/


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## hasbeen29650 (Mar 25, 2012)

It seemed we were supposed to get Showtime on Demand and Showtime Anywhere as part of the deal. I have not seen either yet. Anyone know when it might come? I am having to replace my Hopper with Sling because of the hard drive going bad and it had the most recent season of Homeland on it. I would like to watch that soon and have no way of doing so now unless they implement the on demand and anywhere agreement.


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## neilo (Aug 7, 2006)

tsmacro said:


> Well that copy and paste job didn't end up looking at all what it did before I hit "post". Oh well basic premise is that Dish is rolling out the new 7 day delay for autohop for CBS stations between now and Feb 28th.


Well, this went into effect recently, maybe as late as Feb 28th. I first noticed it with The Good Wife on March 2 and wondered why the Auto-Hop wasn't working and why in fact all the CBS titles appeared to be missing the kangaroo. Glad I went back and checked here.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yep ... I let a couple of CBS shows sit in my Hopper more than a week (timers set to record the programs) and the "kangaroo" appeared after the 7th day.

Currently in the PrimeTime folder only the oldest three shows (recorded 2/27) have AutoHop enabled. The 2/28 shows are not yet enabled.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

The 7 day delay is a part of the new CBS/Dish contract. All CBS stations O&O and affiliates are affected by this.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

I usually watch shows time shifted the same day, so I rarely have the opportunity to use auto hop, and when I do it confuses my index finger, because it is so accustomed to hitting the SKIP FWD button 6 times... Oh well.


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## david_jr (Dec 10, 2006)

I notice that some programs have mixed up commercial times now. Some have a shorter break earlier on and then a longer break later on so hitting the button 6 times will push you past the start of the program.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The war is on ... I choose to wait a week and win - or watch some other network's programming. Take that CBS!


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## david_jr (Dec 10, 2006)

phrelin said:


> From the investor advice website Motley Fool comes this story today How DISH Betrayed Customers To Strike A Deal With CBS:
> 
> This is, of course, the real loss for Dish. A sales pitch that essentially says "unlike other DVR's in a few days to a week after a show airs, the Hopper can automatically skip commercials" isn't much of a sales pitch. The article suggests Dish's "satellite-less TV service delivered over the Internet" might offset this, but then notes that while the Disney/ABC/ESPN deal included significant streaming rights, CBS only agreed to continue talking all the while cranking up its CBS All Access streaming service.
> 
> One has to wonder how competitive Dish will be by 2020. In my situation, I don't see how we could use any Dish streaming service without our Comcast internet. Using the Comcast Xfinity data usage calculator it is clear that we would be limited to about 30 hours of streaming HD a month without running up against the theoretical (now suspended) 250 GB per month streaming limit which I have to assume remains a significant per customer number that Comcast Xfinity is evaluating. Of course, for the rest of my life that limit may remain suspended.


Did not realize at the time how prophetic this was. Now that it is on us I have to agree. 7 day wait for autohop is too long plain and simple and is a bad deal.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Except... you can still skip commercials with the skip and FWD keys... same as you have to do for 99% of the channels on Dish anyway... i get that "AutoHop" is a cool feature and all, but it always felt like a bargaining chip to me because it really doesn't do anything you can't do yourself with just a few button presses on the remote.


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## Willh (Jan 1, 2009)

the whole after 7 deal wait is just CBS trying to brick the AutoHop feature and the other networks just put a small delay cause they couldn't fight it as they needed the ratings more then CBS does. CBS is #1 for a reason. and CBS is trying their best to kill the autohop feature. now if Fox ever wanted to take it one step further, and make it 14 days, then i guess the Autohop feature would have to be phased out.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I like AutoHop ... but I do not see losing AutoHop as being the death of DISH Network. It seems strange how pundits will play down the importance of the feature in one breath and then claim losing the feature is a death knell.


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## david_jr (Dec 10, 2006)

Certainly not the death of Dish, but it is a big loss. For most people 7 days is like losing autohop on that station. Am I going to leave Dish over it certainly not. Yes we can use the skip feature, but let's face it PTAT and AutoHop are the 2 biggest things that make the Hopper so cool. If the other networks follow suit with the CBS deal, I think Fox and NBC have yet to negotiate AutoHop, a lot of the cache of the Hopper will be lost. Still a great piece of equipment and PTAT works great for our household where a lot of network TV is watched. But AutoHop is missed on CBS. The recent CBS shows on our Hoppers are all devoid of the red Kangaroo. Yes we are spoiled.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

To which I say wait then. I personally thought it was a bit dangerous to push that feature because I think they knew this would happen in the long run. And i seriously doubt it has saved dish anything fees with ABC or CBS.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The Hopper launched without AutoHop. People seem to forget that. It was not the feature that made the Hopper the Hopper. It was an add-on that came later.

And since the other providers don't have an AutoHop feature and any who did would be subject to the same negotiations that Dish has had with the likes of ABC and CBS for delaying it... it's a non-starter to say not having this feature would kill Dish against its competition.

Much ado about nothing is appropriate here.


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