# ASK DBSTalk: When is the next software update?



## Ronald K (Jan 11, 2004)

It has been a few weeks now and I was wandering if Dish is willing to keep us up to speed on the progress they are making to resolve the issues.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I know that there's a lot of issues and bugs being worked on, but don't have a timeframe on the next software release. I can tell you that it's not yet in beta.


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## Doody (Dec 17, 2003)

those boys sure must be busy busy busy 

doody!


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## srrobinson2 (Sep 16, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I know that there's a lot of issues and bugs being worked on, but don't have a timeframe on the next software release. I can tell you that it's not yet in beta.


Okay, so the nay-sayers are now probably shouting "I told you so!".

As a proud beta-tester who invested $1000 for this wonderful opportunity, I am wondering when our friends at Echostar will begin to fix all of the problems that I seem to have with my 921.

To date:
1) unable to watch locals on 105 sat
2) no OTA programming guide information
3) OTA timers fail to fire
4) stop button stops in-progress recordings in addition to item being viewed
5) two-hour recording limit on manually record HD event (only last two hours of Super Bowl were viewable)

A few of these, I could live with temporarily, but looking at the total picture--this is not acceptable to pay the money that we all paid for such gross failures. E*, please fix this stuff and post an ETA or better yet, just push the repaired software!


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## markcollins (Jan 27, 2004)

And a long list of other problems too.Why are we paying $4.99 a month for an obviously flawed product.I asked a DNWK rep that and got a reply of all the features that were available on the 921.That's fine if it would work.


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## Ronald K (Jan 11, 2004)

No new software in beta testing. This is not good.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Just got word a couple of minutes ago to expect a new beta release next week. 

Keep in mind that just because the beta testers don't have a new version yet doesn't mean that testing isn't happening - there's a first level of testing that happens before I see the software.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Did I hear that right in the tech chat. Did they mention next software rev next week? Seems unlikely if we're just going into beta next week.

Either way, at least we know it's coming.


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## Rodney (Aug 22, 2003)

I heard exactly the same thing. It was quite refreshing to hear comments concerning software updates for various receivers especially name based recording. When reading this and other forums this type of information seems to be a highly classified secret. Is it possible for those that have contacts inside Dish to expand those relationships to include the individuals providing information on last evenings technical chat? It appears to me that they were very open about their plans and discussed them with no hesitation. This board could institute a section that could list proposed future updates which includes the expected date of release and what those updates attempt to repair. I understand features that have not been announced, which would put Dish at a disadvantage in the market place, should not be listed.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

Mark- Could you remind others as to the timing. As I recall you get the beta download not much before everyone else. To assume that E* has shelved the 921 development just because you haven't received product for first level testing is silly. I trust and do hope that far more development and debugging work is ongoing without E* confiding in you every step of the way. Of course I could be wrong and they did put you in the first line and you just can't discuss. Good for you! The best thing about your position is your liason role, as far as I'm concerned.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I think I saw you post this over at AVS, Don, but I think it's worth repeating here.

Dish uses 2 levels of testing before the consumer ever sees the software. The first level (we'll call it Alpha testing) is a very select group of Dish technical employees that test for big stability issues that will kill the beta testers. Once the software passes the Alpha level, it's sent to the second level (which are the Beta testers). The Beta testers then follow a script sent by the developers testing specific items as thoroughly as possible, in addition to other general testing. Just about all of the beta testers are also Dish employees, although there are a few of us on the outside as well. Once Beta is signed off on, then the software is released to the public.

The timing has been very fast for L145 and for this next version. The next version isn't at the beta level yet, so you should assume that it's going through the alpha level of testing. It's scheduled to hit beta level next week, and then if all goes reasonably well scheduled to hit consumer level a week from Friday.

This is not the normal development time frame. Things are being pushed very hard for the 921. The team is working very hard and very long hours to get this thing stabilized. 

So, that's how the process works (of course I've left out a lot of the details, but you still get the idea). 

That's about as much as I can say at the moment. Read into that statement what you will...


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## Doody (Dec 17, 2003)

thanks mark - that's wildly educational and helpful. i'm holding off on my 921 purchase until the unit is more stable. it seems like quite a mess at the moment  but they're CLEARLY trying hard. fingers crossed!

doody.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

We're all hoping that by the end of next week, the 921 will be much more stable.


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## clapple (Feb 11, 2003)

Doody said:


> thanks mark - that's wildly educational and helpful. i'm holding off on my 921 purchase until the unit is more stable. it seems like quite a mess at the moment  but they're CLEARLY trying hard. fingers crossed!
> 
> doody.


Holding off on our 921 purchases seems to be the only choice we have.


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## metallicafreak (Jan 20, 2004)

I think to call it a mess is poor terminology. It is far from perfect, but I personally have had only 2 instances of inconvenience over the last 3 weeks and I have set many timers. Note: I have not touched the OTA section at all as I do not really watch any network TV and I get CBS-HD from Dish.
I am thrilled with this product and can see the future potential.
FREAK!


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

The OTA recording and OTA channel database is a complete mess; the rest of the product is just bug-ridden and poorly thought out in terms of usability.

For example, by pricing this product at $1000, Dish was obviously hoping to target home theatre enthusiasts. But at the same time, by including sub-standard scaling and de-interlacing, and effectively removing the option to defer this processing to something outside of the 921, the picture quality is relegated to "mediocre" on the true high definition scale. Why was this choice made? Did Dish consult with anyone who might actually use this product in their home along with other high end equipment, such as external scalers, front projectors, modern HDTVs (not sets from 3 years ago that can't support half the HD standard!), etc. etc.?

At the moment, just fixing the bugs would be enough, but the product has a way to go if its really to capture the market segment that its apparently aimed at. Thus, I'm a little less hopeful about "seeing future potential".


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

It does sound to me like the Dish folks really are working on an aggressive software release schedule. Believe me, changing a fair amount of lines of code, internal testing, beta testing, and distributing (including testing the distribution) take a LOT of time. My biggest gripe is that they should have done this before they released instead of rushing to be first to market with a product that wasn't anywhere close to being ready.


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## Doody (Dec 17, 2003)

i think "mess" is not an inappropriate word to use. clearly for the average "i want a TiVo integrated with my multi-tuner sat box" the unit can serve its purpose. but as slordak points out, at this price point the unit has some serious deficiencies including control mechanisms (discrete codes and/or RS232) and output modes (pass-thru, heuristics as proposed on this board, etc.); never mind OTA stuff.

ALL of it is fixable i think. however, i remain oncerned that they'll not add the necessary discrete codes, since none of their units have ever done this right, as best i can recall. and the output modes stuff is probably a deal-breaker for me, so i hope they at least put a pass-through in, if not the logic options discussed previously here.

the OTA stuff sounds like it's just bugs bugs bugs. enough raid and they'll conquer that.

GO DISH! somebody buy some extra pizzas for the engineers over there! GO GO GO! quash those bugs! GO!

doody.


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## topom (Jan 4, 2004)

metallicafreak said:


> I think to call it a mess is poor terminology. It is far from perfect, but I personally have had only 2 instances of inconvenience over the last 3 weeks and I have set many timers. Note: I have not touched the OTA section at all as I do not really watch any network TV and I get CBS-HD from Dish.
> I am thrilled with this product and can see the future potential.
> FREAK!


Here Here. I just posted my 1st impressions in the "921 owners roll call" thread. Let's face it, every single negative experience has been well documented on this forum. What is not as well documented is that there are many of us for whom simply the ability to record HDTV programming from HBO/SHO/CBS/Discovery for later viewing is AMAZING! I am delighted with my new capabilities with the 921. Some of us are excited to be among the first to be able to record/pause/rewind HDTV in any capacity. :grin:


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

I am one early adopter of the HDTV recording club. I had one of the first Panny systems. I now have the 921 and I am really excited. Is it a complete mess? What I think is some people are a complete mess! I think this 921 is one of the easiest ways to record HDTV ever. The image quality is the best from any of my sources. IT's the DVI that makes it so. Component is no better than other component devices but HD in DVI is what makes this 921 really top gun PQ.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> We're all hoping that by the end of next week, the 921 will be much more stable.


A stable 921 with plenty of h/w in the pipeline. Now that would be an early Christmas. Bet it will be part of Dubya's economic recovery plan!!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

A little while I talked to some of the guys at Eldon. It's a little after 10pm mountain time, which puts it a little after 5am in London and they're working. This is a highly aggressive schedule - much more so than I can tell you at the moment.


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## metallicafreak (Jan 20, 2004)

Slordak:
'the picture quality is relegated to "mediocre" on the true high definition scale'
I have to totally dissagree with you there and completely agree with Don. I am viewing the 921 via DVI with a Dwin TV3 like Don and find the picture amazing. I thought HD on my 6000 was great but I noticed the difference right away when I first turned on the 921. An when I had 1/2 to date reboots during the superbowl(GRRRR!), as I said before, I switched back to the 6000 to continue viewing the game and audibly said 'YIKES!!!' because it was shocking how different the image quality was. Before, I would watch an occational HD movie because I dont get to watch TV until my kids are asleep and the chores are (never) done. By this time(10pm) there really isn't much on. Now, I ALWAYS have plenty excellent HD to watch whenever I want and I don't have to wory about interruptions when the kiddies get out of bed. Like Topom said, for recording HBO/Sho/hdnet/hdnetmovies/Discovery/CBS-HD/PPV no problems at all really.
Love the unit. I know it will get better.

Actually my one gripe is that the dishwire isn't active yet and I am going to run out of space saving movies/events that I want to put on DVHS! GO DISH GO!!!!
FREAK!


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## Slordak (Dec 17, 2003)

Metallicafreak, what you really need to see is a side by side of the following scenarios, involving a relatively expensive HDTV ($2500 or more, ideally a DLP or LCD RP) or front projector:

1) True 720p channel, output as 1080i on the 921, then sent to the TV via DVI, and converted by the TV to its native display resolution.

2) True 720p channel, passed through the 921 with no conversion or other signal processing, sent to the TV via DVI, and converted by the TV to its native display resolution.

If you do a comparison of these two, the second should definitely be better. Is the first terrible? No, it's pretty good by most standards, but compared to what it should be (i.e. the second), it's mediocre. And the same holds true for 480i and 480p sources (which should also be passed through unmolested).


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Slordak said:


> Metallicafreak, what you really need to see is a side by side of the following scenarios, involving a relatively expensive HDTV ($2500 or more, ideally a DLP or LCD RP) or front projector:
> 
> 1) True 720p channel, output as 1080i on the 921, then sent to the TV via DVI, and converted by the TV to its native display resolution.
> 
> 2) True 720p channel, passed through the 921 with no conversion or other signal processing, sent to the TV via DVI, and converted by the TV to its native display resolution.


I think Metallicafreak and Slordak are talking about two different things. Slordak is talking about line doublers and scalers, Metallicafreak isn't. I agree with both of you actually.

The 921 has a picture quality that is better than the 6000 on a 1080i to 1080i basis, and that is what Metallicafreak is talking about. I had two 6000s, and the color balance was biased towards green on both of them. The 921 has a neutral color balance. Aside from that, the colors look brighter on the 921, maybe it has a better DAC for the component output or something. It is noticeable.

As far as Slordak goes, you would like better line doublers and scalers. However, if I read you right, you would probably be happy if the software people just put more logic states in the "SD/HD" button so that it did no conversion, that you could go through states, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. That way you could use the scalers in your DLP.

And yes, I agree with Slordak that the LCD projectors are the best picture at the moment, you actually get 1920x1080i pixels! My direct view doesn't appear to have the bandwidth to do that as well as it is advertised. You also can get native pixel resolutions, which, for you would make a noticeable difference.


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