# 6000's S/W - 7.81



## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

According to Dishnet's software upgrade page - all 6000s should be getting new 7.81 S/W version...

(according to that page - IT looks "widespread")


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

Darkman said:


> According to Dishnet's software upgrade page - all 6000s should be getting new 7.81 S/W version...
> 
> (according to that page - IT looks "widespread")


Widespread may not be good for Dish's customers. The new upgrade to 7.81 only sees about 50% of my Harmony remote button clicks now!

ARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG

And I've seen another post where a Pronto remote has the same problems with this "upgrade". And a third similar post with 7.80 problems of missing button pushes.


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## rollua1 (Sep 9, 2003)

I just got 7.81 ... My remote and menus are faster now .


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Yeah 7.81 seems much more responsive to changing channel numbers.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Home Theater Master MX-500 works just fine with the 6000 and 7.81.


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## Bobby94928 (May 12, 2003)

I took a look after seeing 7.81 come down and noticed "info not available" an hour beyond the actual time. When I went 4 hours ahead, it went into "updating." I see no change there at all.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

maybe a need for new batteries for some


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

Darkman said:


> maybe a need for new batteries for some


I actually thought of new batteries, but the batteries in my Harmony are only a couple of weeks old, and the Harmony has a low battery indicator, which isn't even on. (the remote still works even when it shows low batteries, and it is not currently showing low batteries. I even tried switching batteries with my almost unused 6000 remote batteries which are about 1 week old.

The bottom line is about every other button push doesn't work with my Harmony after 7.81 upgrade on the Dish receiver. There is another person who has Pronto remote that had the same problem after the upgrade.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

some remotes on seldom occasion could be somewhat defective..
and can "eat" brand new batteries within days (not saying that is the case with yours though)


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

ride525 said:


> The bottom line is about every other button push doesn't work with my Harmony after 7.81 upgrade on the Dish receiver. There is another person who has Pronto remote that had the same problem after the upgrade.


There is a third person who posted at Remote Central that has this problem too. And a 4th that had a problem with 7.80.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

From suggestion at RemoteCentral.com, changed MINREPEATS value on my 6000 receiver XML code for Harmony 768 remote from default of 1 to 4.

The Harmony 768 seems to be working now with the new Dish 7.81 "upgrade".

Weird, wonder what the Dish "upgrade" did to the 6000 receiver.

Thanks,

Jeff


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## rollua1 (Sep 9, 2003)

So what is new in version 7.81 ?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I'm working on getting the official list of changes now. The items that I've seen that have changed:

Superdish support (in 7.80) - 105 and 121 now listed on the point dish screens

Check Switch updated for Superdish support (7.80) - check switch should be much faster now

Discrete HD/SD workaround is back in the code

Guide data should go out at least 12 hours now without having to pull data from the satellite (this make take a day to populate after receiving the new software), and acquiring guide data from the satellite is now much faster (20 seconds or so)

These are the new features that I've seen on my 6000. I don't have a list of bug fixes yet, but hopefully will get a list later today.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

Well 7.81 changed something in how the 6000 "sees" the remote IR code.

I had to change the MINREPEATS value in my Harmony remote code to make 7.81 work with my Harmony remote. The MINREPEATS value has something to do with how many infrared repeats the remote sends. And the defuault value of 1 worked fine before 7.81, I changed to 4 from suggestion at RemoteCentral.com .


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

Yeah it sounds like the remote problem is still there just that they changed the response value to make it better but still not as good as it was. Some remotes need to be adjusted to send a longer signal.

I am sure their logic will be that if it works well with the Dish remotes, then it is good enough... you other remote people will need to find a workaround.

I am using the RS 2126 (I think)... but haven't tried to get 7.81 yet. Since I got 7.80 I should probably get it if I turn it off.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2003)

My Dish remore works much better now. Thanks Dish!


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## batrad (Aug 18, 2003)

while getting the upgrade
won't boot up

waiting on a replacement from dish


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

ride525 said:


> I actually thought of new batteries, but the batteries in my Harmony are only a couple of weeks old, and the Harmony has a low battery indicator, which isn't even on. (the remote still works even when it shows low batteries, and it is not currently showing low batteries. I even tried switching batteries with my almost unused 6000 remote batteries which are about 1 week old.
> 
> The bottom line is about every other button push doesn't work with my Harmony after 7.81 upgrade on the Dish receiver. There is another person who has Pronto remote that had the same problem after the upgrade.


I have a pronto pro and just tried it. I have no problems with the receiver accepting my key presses. I did verify that I have 7.81.

Ken


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## Sparkman87 (Apr 28, 2002)

Remote problem with TIVO still there. The only way I can even get it to recognize the remote is on remote addresses 6 or 12. The, it will only get 1 of the 3 or 4 numbers. Been on the phone with both TIVO tech service & DISH advanced tech service. Tried alot, but can't get it to work. Waiting for a call back from advanced support if they find anything.


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## noble1557 (Sep 11, 2003)

I have Tivo as well and I get it to change the channel at all. I have tried to chang the codes but that doesnt help either. I guess i get to call dish's wonderful tech support.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2003)

Anyone notice the HDTV Menu is now 6-1-8 and not 6-1-9?


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I'm working on getting the official list of changes now. The items that I've seen that have changed:
> 
> ...
> Check Switch updated for Superdish support (7.80) - check switch should be much faster now
> ...


Check Switch is now 50 checks and MUCH slower.


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## tnsprin (Mar 16, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> Anyone notice the HDTV Menu is now 6-1-8 and not 6-1-9?


??what shows up on 6-1 for yours. I show
1 point dish/signal
2 system upgrades
3 system info
4 telephone system
5 local channels
6 factory defaults
7 vcr setup
8 hdtv setup
0 cancel


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> ??what shows up on 6-1 for yours. I show
> 1 point dish/signal
> 2 system upgrades
> 3 system info
> ...


The old software used to be:
1-7 same
8 multi dish install
9 hdtv setup


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

tnsprin said:


> Check Switch is now 50 checks and MUCH slower.


Make sure you DON'T have the superdish box checked. The check switch is 50 tests only if the superdish box is checked. With it not checked, the test is 38 tests I believe, and the entire check switch shouldn't take longer than 2 minutes. That's the way it was in the last beta version of the software that I tested, after earlier versions having the check switch take almost 10 minutes to do.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I am not seeing any improvements in the guide. I took the download this morning but I am still getting a lot of "info not available" and getting satellite info guide downloads. My guess is that the 12 hr guide is missing from this version.


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## volfan615 (Sep 18, 2003)

Darkman said:


> According to Dishnet's software upgrade page - all 6000s should be getting new 7.81 S/W version...
> 
> (according to that page - IT looks "widespread")


I have version 781 but still having problems with my Pronto Neo remote.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Just checked. I have a Pronto TSU3000 and I also have the problem with requireing multiple buttons pressed. Also they did not fix the acquiring signal issue. I got that also. So for this fix, I got the SD/HD discrete code back in and added a new remote control bug that is uglier. Hmmm... At this point I would say the update is not worth it.


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

7.81 works better than ever with my Denon RC-8000 remote. My impression is that I don't have to hold the buttons down as long in "manual mode" now. I've always had to use multiple "button pushes" (I believe three for each command, with zero time between) for the 6000 in macros, however.

Brad


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I got 7.81 down and am still having the same remote problems reported before. I see no change. Is this going to be fixed?

I have another 6000 still in the box sent to me by Dish and havent tried it out. I figure it is pointless and will just send it back.


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## faiello (Mar 17, 2003)

I seem to be having a problem direct tuning channels with this upgrade, anyone else have this problem. When I press the numbers it seem to talk a long time for them to appear and by the time I complete the 3 or 4 digit number station it is to late and I lost what I have entered. Aso the dicrete HD/SD is still no working on my Sony AV3000 remote.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Looks like they helped some people and broke others. I am not sure if there is a way to change the IR behavior on the TSU3000 as there is on other remotes as a workaround. Boy I wonder if this was introduced between 7.80 and 7.81 or has this been in the 7.8x version since day one. If it has, they have a huge Beta issue. This is not what one would call a minor glitch at all. UGH!!!


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I'm watching the results of the remote stuff here and AVS closely. So far, it appears that 7.81 *fixed* the remote problems for about half of the people having the problem under 7.80, and did nothing for the other half of the people. I'm still not experiencing this problem on my 6000, and haven't since the beginning.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

How did they even break the remote operation to begin with?


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## DarrellP (Apr 24, 2002)

gpflepsen said:


> Anyone notice the HDTV Menu is now 6-1-8 and not 6-1-9?


Yes, I thought I was going crazy, I kep hitting 9 and nothing happened so I finally looked at the screen and 9 was gone!


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## DarrellP (Apr 24, 2002)

Is anyone else seeing ghosting on the menus while in 720P? I tried adjusting the screen and it doesn't do anything. I noticed this after the upgrade but I also switched to the VGA output about the same time. I will try going back to component and see if it's still there. The ghosting is only on menus and not the picture content.


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## zexel (Aug 7, 2003)

volfan615 said:


> I have version 781 but still having problems with my Pronto Neo remote.


 I have found that for my macros that go to a particular station such as HBO that if I program to repeat each # twice it works. For HBO 33 00 00 with a delay of 0.1 between each set. This is on a NeoPronto.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

So, I inadvertantly turned of my 6000 box and when i turned it back on it was downloading software. At first I was excited since I could now finish programming my Pronto with the HD/SD codes. But, to my amazement my control using Tivo was GONE! Well, I immediately called DN tech support.

I had them escalate immediately and I had a long (and sometimes somewhat heated) chat with Amanda on the advanced team and she ASSURED me OVER AND OVER AGAIN that the update to 7.81 had NOTHING to do with IR. And, there is NO way that a change in THEIR equipment software could affect how my Tivo operates. She would not listen to reason at all, nor did she understand the problem or how the IR reception of the 6000 would matter to the Tivo.

If you guys have called this in already, it must not be in their knowledgebase or she just didn't bother to look.

This is bad, very bad. I am very upset with the fact that their escalation team was so unknowledgeable and she was even unwilling to escalate my question (did the upgrade affect how IR is received?) to the Engineers. She was INSISTENT that the upgrade did nothing to how the IR worked. All she cared about was that my DISH remote worked.

Comcast just came into my neighborhood, they have HDTV, hi-speed internet, and an attractive price. After 8 years with Dish, I have had enough simply due to this one call!



zexel said:


> I have found that for my macros that go to a particular station such as HBO that if I program to repeat each # twice it works. For HBO 33 00 00 with a delay of 0.1 between each set. This is on a NeoPronto.


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## Chetk (Oct 14, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> This is bad, very bad. I am very upset with the fact that their escalation team was so unknowledgeable and she was even unwilling to escalate my question (did the upgrade affect how IR is received?) to the Engineers. She was INSISTENT that the upgrade did nothing to how the IR worked. All she cared about was that my DISH remote worked.


I think I may have spoken with Amanda before too. She was VERY unknowledgable and insisted she was the correct one as well. Although, of course, she was wrong. I have dealt with some good Dish Network customer support, but I have also dealt with some VERY bad customer support.

By the way, I have only been a Dish Network customer for nearly 4 months and this is the first time I've EVER had a satellite.

Chet


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

So I called back shortly after reading this thread. Asked for escalation, asked to not get Amanda.

A different ATS person, Sylvia, did not know much, but at least said she would log it for Engineering to track for a trend. They should know by now that this is a real issue. 

I am giving them very little time to resolve this as Tivo is an integral part of our TV viewing routine. Once you have it, you can't go back!

I have already called Comcast in my area and they have HD now and they are giving $400 credit over 16 months for me to convert. And, other than CBS (soon coming), they have more content than Dish.

DISH, IF YOU ARE READING THIS, FIX IT SOON OR YOU WILL LOSE MANY CUSTOMERS!

You cannot release software without testing it with the top devices that you know people will be using like Tivo, ReplayTV, etc. You cannot cop out and say that if its not your equipment you have no issue.

Remember this famous phrase:

"Service your customers or someone else will"


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

I started having problems today too with my xp media center edition remote. Now it could of been cause I moved the 6000 inside an enclosed entertainment center, but not so sure. I moved it out to the same situation where I had it before, but I also hit the power button for 20 seconds. (I thought I read somewhere that that didn something different, maybe I am imagining it though.). Anyway, it powered off, then powered back on again. It worked in the old outside enclosure. I then put it back in the enclosure, and it started working again. Really weird.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

So what is the Tivo beef with the upgrade? Is the 6000's ir blaster not functioning with Tivo? How does the Tivo and the 6000 interrelate? I'm just not well versed in Tivo.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> So what is the Tivo beef with the upgrade? Is the 6000's ir blaster not functioning with Tivo? How does the Tivo and the 6000 interrelate? I'm just not well versed in Tivo.


The Tivo emulates the 6000 remote using two IR blasters that you affix to the top/front of the 6000. If the protocol of the IR changes significantly, every device from universal remotes to the Tivo could be/are effected.

THIS IS A BIG DEAL

I think the solution Dish should come up with is a way that users could request to roll back to a previous S/W version. This would give the end-user an option should there be any unforseen bugs in the code.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

Yeah this is gonna be a big problem. At least with me they already spent the money to ship me a new receiver when that wasn't the problem. They are going tobe doing a LOT of troubleshooting for awhile before they realize they have a trend. I don't know who in s/w development decided this is a low priority "known issue" but that was a bad call to let this software go out this way.

As it appears, according to this thread, this bug was introduced in 7.80, carried along in 7.81, was not fixed in 7.81 as one of the high priority fixes. Since they are under pressure to get the SuperDish updates out, I am sure thats why they let this bug go out.

BUT THEY MUST ACKNOWLEDGE IT AS A KNOWN ISSUE AND LET ALL TSR TIERS KNOW!

Then they must fix it SOON! To me its just really annoying but to someone using an IR blaster its breaking their whole media integration.

By the way, it is NOT an IR issue! Its something to do with the interrupt command processing. If you use IR, UHF, or front control panel you have the same problem. Go to the guide and click up and down the screen (staying on the same page). Click as quickly as possible, either remote or front buttons, you will see some clicks get missed. Sometimes as often as 1 for 5 sometimes 1 for 30. Its this point I made that got the advanced tech support to send me a new 6000 at first rather than the remote. They had me try my 501 remote with it and it worked better but still missed some clicks. It seems to have a longer send time.

The fix is to increase the length of the signal. If you do the above but hold DOWN the button until the command "takes" it will work all the time. But you cant just quickly hit and release. So those with programmable remotes are getting around it by increasing the send time. But for most devices this is not configurable.

This also affects the Dish remote as well so they will be getting a lot of calls but right now a lot of people are just changing batteries thinking its that.

I dont know what they changed in the software that stole more cycles from the interrupt check loop but this usually happens if the CPU has too much to do in the background that it misses an interrupt check every now and then. If the guide data is now more compressed it may be taking more time pulling out data from memory and decompressing. Just a guess, but Im not sure what guide work it would be doing in the background.

Lee


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

DISH, if you are listening (and logic would say you must be), fix this problem by this weekend or you will lose me and my 8 loyal years. Tivo is more important to me than Dish and I now have options for HD content such as Comcast who are itching to get me to convert by offering me $400 credit over the next 16 months. Also, I can get analog signal to other TVs for no additional box charge.

$400 off, similar service, and my Tivo will WORK!


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

For anyone keeping score, I took the 7.81 upgrade on Sunday and my pronto continues to work just fine.

BTW, Hello everyone.


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## wdowns (Sep 11, 2003)

[email protected]


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Messages passed on to the 6000 software team.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

wdowns said:


> [email protected]


You would not be so flippant if a software bug such as this was forced onto you thereby changing your entire enjoyment of your home entertainment system and then having Dish TSRs dismiss it as a non-issue and claim that the 780 and 781 code changes touched NOTHING dealing with how the IR is received and could ABSOLUTELY, IN NO WAY, AFFECT HOW MY TIVO OPERATES. Then, refuse to escalate the issue to engineering as a POSSIBLE trend.

Ridiculous.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I've noticed that my learning remote is sensitive to how long I hold the button down on the sending remote and will record the length of the signal. So for those that may have "trained" a remote and held the button down on the source remote long enough when trained, may not have this problem. It may also be a fix for those that have learning remotes and trained from the Dish remote. Re-train with holding the button longer.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Klang, 

What Pronto do you have? Have the The TSU3000 and I have to press each button twice. UGH!!!.. They definitely broke something in a very bad way. Did you apply any work around? 

tbfu2000, 

YOu talk about loosing control to your TV. Are you meaning that your dish6000 is controlling your TIVO through the IR Blaster. The only problems i have had is with the 6000 taking multiple buttons pressed. I am a little unclear as to where the Dish6000 fits into the Tivo? I know you are recording the Dish6000 signal but I am not sure where it fits in.. 

Oh.. Are you saying that the Dish does not accept the TIVO signals from the IR Blaster now? That would make sense since it is now required multiple singals on some remotes. Does the TIVO have anyway to adjust signal length or anyway to send the signal mutiple times? that might give you a work around. 


The fact here is that they did mess up and broke something major. The reality is that it will take some time for them to figure this out and fix it. This does happen in software development and it is not only a Dish Phanomina. Ever industry no matter how much you test has things like this happen occassional. I would suggest that you see if you can work around it until they figure it out. I am sure by now they are aware of it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

dmodemd said:


> I've noticed that my learning remote is sensitive to how long I hold the button down on the sending remote and will record the length of the signal. So for those that may have "trained" a remote and held the button down on the source remote long enough when trained, may not have this problem. It may also be a fix for those that have learning remotes and trained from the Dish remote. Re-train with holding the button longer.


Good Suggesting dmodemd, I will give that a try.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Klang,
> The fact here is that they did mess up and broke something major. The reality is that it will take some time for them to figure this out and fix it. This does happen in software development and it is not only a Dish Phanomina. Ever industry no matter how much you test has things like this happen occassional. I would suggest that you see if you can work around it until they figure it out. I am sure by now they are aware of it.


The problem is really that Dish Network still thinks they are in a homogeneous world of home entertainment. The Tivo has a simple few selections from which to choose for the echostar box. The real problem here is not whether or not they will fix the issue, but rather what recourse do customers have?

You are right, bugs do happen in software. But, take a look at MS. When a new version of the software rolls around, you have a choice whether or not to install it, and you also have a choice if you would like to roll back to a previous version due to some incompatibility.

Points:

1. Does DN treat EVERY customer issue as a possible real trouble once it is outside of their troubleshooting? It doesn't seem so as many on this board, including myself, have been quickly dismissed by self-proclaimed highly-trained TSRs.

2. Should/Does DN care about how other devices communicate ith their box? IMO, yes if it is such a large installede base and they are monkeying with the mode of communication (IR or UHF)

3. Should DN monitor boards such as this to see if their are early-adopter issues and then alert their front line staff so that their is in fact a knowledgebase issue? Of COURSE!

4. Should there be a way the end-user can request to roll back one version of the software? Absolutely! This would give them the time necessary to fix the issue and move on without having disgruntled customers.

At this point, I am so pissed off by the dismissive treatment I received from DN that I am using word of mouth and boards to tell as many people as possible that the DN 6000 box is incompatible with Tivo and DN in general is not concerned about integrating with other home entertainment equipment. This is the result not just of the bug itself, but how I was treated.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

tbfu, lets face it, Dish knew about this problem in version 7.80 since Mark Lamutt told them about it. Then they used the same code with slight modifications in 7.81 and released it knowing the problem would affect some people's receivers and they would try to fix it later. Clearly, these are not the actions of a company that cares too much about customer satisfaction.

Also, the attitude you got from the CSR is common, even on well documented bugs they act as if they have never heard of it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> The problem is really that Dish Network still thinks they are in a homogeneous world of home entertainment. The Tivo has a simple few selections from which to choose for the echostar box. The real problem here is not whether or not they will fix the issue, but rather what recourse do customers have?


Sorry to hear that the Tivo does not have the flexiability it could have provided a work around. Well the whole thing about software updates is a two edge sword. We hell for extra features and to fix problems. To do this there is a risk that you fix one and brake another. Hmm in my opinion recourse as a common practice would slow down fixes and enhancements to a crawl.



[email protected] said:


> You are right, bugs do happen in software. But, take a look at MS. When a new version of the software rolls around, you have a choice whether or not to install it, and you also have a choice if you would like to roll back to a previous version due to some incompatibility.


I would consider PC OS software a different animal, but I dont recall with Windows update functionality haveing a rollback mechanism. Maybe there is one, but if there is it is not apparent.

Also, there are a number of times when rollbacks have failed from my experience. It is sort of like a last ditch effort sometimes and at times does not work. But that is another topic in itself.



[email protected] said:


> Points:
> 1. Does DN treat EVERY customer issue as a possible real trouble once it is outside of their troubleshooting? It doesn't seem so as many on this board, including myself, have been quickly dismissed by self-proclaimed highly-trained TSRs.


Common practice of Software companies if to devert blame as step one. E* is not special in this case. As for EVERY Customer, I can't say if it is true or not. Oh I due have some experiences like you are mentioning in the Digital camera arena too!



[email protected] said:


> 2. Should/Does DN care about how other devices communicate ith their box? IMO, yes if it is such a large installede base and they are monkeying with the mode of communication (IR or UHF)


I am sure they do care... This problem could have be created by something no IR related. Possible a badly programmed timing loop.. Hard to say.



[email protected] said:


> 3. Should DN monitor boards such as this to see if their are early-adopter issues and then alert their front line staff so that their is in fact a knowledgebase issue? Of COURSE!


My understaind is that they do.



[email protected] said:


> 4. Should there be a way the end-user can request to roll back one version of the software? Absolutely! This would give them the time necessary to fix the issue and move on without having disgruntled customers.


This would be a nice feature of the receiver. Suprised they dont support this one. Possible include the last version and allow one to jump back.. However, it would add a hell of a lot of additional support issues.



[email protected] said:


> At this point, I am so pissed off by the dismissive treatment I received from DN that I am using word of mouth and boards to tell as many people as possible that the DN 6000 box is incompatible with Tivo and DN in general is not concerned about integrating with other home entertainment equipment. This is the result not just of the bug itself, but how I was treated.


Have you gotten a lot of people stating that they are seeing the same problem? That would be interestin gto hear. Not hear anyone else pipe in on this thread about the same issue.

Well I can't speak to how you were treated since I was not in on the conversation....


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Lee L said:


> tbfu, lets face it, Dish knew about this problem in version 7.80 since Mark Lamutt told them about it. Then they used the same code with slight modifications in 7.81 and released it knowing the problem would affect some people's receivers and they would try to fix it later. Clearly, these are not the actions of a company that cares too much about customer satisfaction.
> 
> Also, the attitude you got from the CSR is common, even on well documented bugs they act as if they have never heard of it.


I think you give the CSR too much credit to have full knowledge of the bug database. I would even be surprised if Advanced support would have that knowledge. It is usually the developers and internal DVT that has that knowledge and we dont get to chat with those folks. Well most of us atleast.

It is a shame that they let 7.81 out knowing there were a issues in the iR area if that is the case. Question is what were they trying to fix on the IR side? (That is if they were trying to fix something)


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## selim (Oct 14, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Have you gotten a lot of people stating that they are seeing the same problem? That would be interestin gto hear. Not hear anyone else pipe in on this thread about the same issue.


I also have this problem. My setup is a ReplayTV 3060 and Dish 6000. Right after I upgraded from 778 to 781 the ReplayTV IR Blaster failed to function properly. Even after I went into the hidden ReplayTV IR blaster setup menu to make timing adjustments. So the problem is not only on the Tivo.

I spoke to two DN CSRs, and they gave me all sorts of unrelated reasons as to why I am having the problem, such as UHF vs IR.

My only hope is that as you suggested maybe the technical people know about this problem and not the CSRs.

Somebody suggested a temporary solution previously to be able to continue recording until the problem is fixed (or until I get the 921, whichever is sooner) which is to set timers on the 6000 for every scheduled recording. This is what I plan to do for now, as calling the CSRs or complaining doesn't seem to be very productive.

-Selim


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Have you gotten a lot of people stating that they are seeing the same problem? That would be interestin gto hear. Not hear anyone else pipe in on this thread about the same issue.


Well WeeJavaDude, so far in this thread alone (not counting those on AVSforum.com) there are:

3 - users with Tivo issues
1 - user with Replay TV issue
Numerous users with Programmable Remote Issues

Now, take into consideration that the 6000 is probably at most 10% of DN installed base and probably only 20% of those people actually have a Tivo or an advanced remote control, AND, most of those out there probably don't even have the update yet since, like me, they leave their 6000 on all the time for Tivo or out of convenience and the latest update has only been out there 6 days and the one before that (if they were lucky enough to be on the dist. list) has only been out for 3 weeks! Now think, given this TINY subset of people, how many do you think participate in forums like this, even less! Yet, we still have 4+ cases in just one thread in 5 days!!!

There are so many things wrong with this situation I cannot type fast enough to capture my thoughts...

If you were not affected by this...hurray for you...but, remember this, your day will come...

Remember, this weekend for a fix or hello comcast and $400


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Welcome to DBSTalk Selim! :hi:

The 6000 software team knows about the problem. It doesn't surprise me in the least that the CSRs don't know about it.

tbfu2000, I have confidence that Dish will get this problem fixed, but I can guarantee you that it won't be by this weekend _because it's not affecting everyone_. If it were affecting everyone, it would be a simple matter to fix. But because there is a large subset of users that use universal remotes (including me unfortunately) that don't have the problem, it's more difficult to diagnose and fix. I'm not trying to make excuses for Dish, or any of their programmers here. I'm just saying that 3 more days here to fix the problem and get the software spooled is unrealistic.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I think the disconnect is that either A) the software team is not posting the known issues into the knowledgebase [or not rapidly enough or with sufficient keywords] or B) the TSR's are not searching the knowledgebase properly.

I think we would start feeling a LITTLE better if the TSR's started to say "this is a known issue and we are working to fix this as soon as we can...".

I think we have all seen that the internal communication at Dish is horrible. e.g. when new deals come out, the CSRs have no clue and it takes days to sort it all out.

Its just not a high level of professionalism and I think Charlie is a bit frustrated as well. I'm also not impressed with the Sr. VPs - they seem not to be that experienced, are they just pals of Charlie or something? I dunno.... but anyway, they need a true professional s/w and support division.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Welcome to DBSTalk Selim! :hi:
> I'm just saying that 3 more days here to fix the problem and get the software spooled is unrealistic.


Mark, you are probably right that 3 more days is a bit unrealistic. However, by many accounts this existed in the partial 780 roll out as well and was reported. They decided to roll out 781 despite that and also not give the users any way to roll back to the previous version of software in case there is a bug that does not affect everyone.

That point along with the unprofessionalism of the TSRs and the lack of a good knowledgebase is not acceptable. Although not affecting the largest group of users out there, it is a large group nonetheless.

Responses such as "We know that there is a problem and we expect a resolution soon" or "Let me get that down since that sounds like there could be an issue here" or "Let me see if there are other cases that may come up in a search...wow, a few other users have experienced something similar, let me log this as a trouble ticket for escalation" or "Let me check the release notes to see if any areas were updated in the code that might correlate to your issue"

Instead we always get "Change your batteries" or "Its not Dish hardware so we can't help you" or "Well, if your Dish remote works, thats all that matters" or "I am absolutely sure that there is NO WAY ANY software update could affect the way your Tivo works with the 6000" or "There is no way I can forward this on to the Engineers" and so on...and these are quotes I got from their "advanced" team.

Listen, I have been a HUGE proponent of DN for 8 years (>$5500 in service). I have probably encouraged at least 20-40 friends and family to sign up for the service over cable or DTV. This incident should show DN and Charlie that what may seem to be a trivial problem can be huge for a subset of customers and how they deal with that one issue can turn a major advocate into an opponent.

Sometimes the little guy is not so little, be careful where you step. Nowadays, customers have the internet as a voice and vote with their $.


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Klang,
> 
> What Pronto do you have? Have the The TSU3000 and I have to press each button twice. UGH!!!.. They definitely broke something in a very bad way. Did you apply any work around?


I've got the prontopro. I didn't change anything. Most everything in my config is macros so I don't have many individual button pushes.

One possible difference is that my 6000 is inside a cabinet with an IR repeater stuck directly over the IR receptor on the 6000.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

Last Wed, 10/8/03, after receiving the upgrade to 7.81 on my JVC 6000U HDTV Dish receiver, my TiVo Remote stopped changing the channels. 

I replaced the TiVo, no help, I tested against my Echo 4900 and TiVo worked. I have called Dish 4 times today and spent an hour on the phone with TiVo and still no one will admit it is their problem or that it happened after the upgrade (same day). 

HELP.... Anyone else having this problem? TiVo and the receiver have worked together for 10 months.... no issues.. but now... I have no options it seems...

Any suggestions? I have tried every Echo-star Code in my TiVo...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Hmmm.. I can have a repeater too so maybe that would provide a work around. Good point klang. Also going ot try and retrain the the IR codes from the remote holding down longer and see if that fixes the problem.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

Last Wed, 10/8/03, after receiving the upgrade to 7.81 on my JVC 6000U HDTV Dish receiver, my TiVo Remote stopped changing the channels. 

I replaced the TiVo, no help, I tested against my Echo 4900 and TiVo worked. I have called Dish 4 times today and spent an hour on the phone with TiVo and still no one will admit it is their problem or that it happened after the upgrade (same day). They acted like they never heard o this issue....


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2003)

When I called Dish today they told me :"... the upgrade was for maintenance and to get ready for the new Super Dish." "You need to contact TiVo as it is their responsibility to make their equipment work with ours; not the other way around."

Interested to see who fixes it first... if anyone...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Well WeeJavaDude, so far in this thread alone (not counting those on AVSforum.com) there are:
> 
> 3 - users with Tivo issues
> 1 - user with Replay TV issue
> ...


First off, I am affected by the problem as mentioned. Secondly, you should give comcast a call today since it will not change in 3 days. As for my day coming, I have had it come at Dish, Sony, Dazzle, Pinnacle, Microsoft, Microsoft... hmm did I say Microsoft twice. 

As for the numbers, Well I dont know what the starting numbers are or the product percentages so I could not begin to conclude exposure.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2003)

The upgrade happened, remotes stooped working....
So, if they know about it, and it was a problem in the past, then what is their problem? just admit you goofed and fix it... Sounds like the government, never admit or accept accountability.

I talked with them today and I told them I work with software and understand unintended things happen with upgrades... admit you own it and fix it....

I have passed on like 5 members of my family to Dish... Now I have to wonder if I was wrong. 

They need to fix this fast and until then post it on their web site and an known issue...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Jeff, 

I totally agree, however, There is another possibility to this problem that i have seen before (I am not saying this is the case). There have been some issues where a companies software had a bug in it and the company goes and fixes the bug. For example, maybe they were not doing IR exactly right. Well they go and fix it and in doing so, break third parties that had a work around implemented. Believe it or not there are classes of bugs that work because of sloppy programming. Then when something gets tightend up... Boom!! 

This happend with OS/2 a number of years back.... IBM tightend an API call and in doing so broke numerious third party packages including a number of their own. This lead to a huge problem for all there ISVs and confusion as to where the bug is. It was one of these cases where third party people where not doing something properly and due to the fact that IBM was sloppy things worked. When IBM tightend things up.. Bang!!!! 

Why the stroll down memory lane??? Well I am not saying that this is the case here, but it is another real possiblity. If this is the case, then it might can be argued that it is the other persons court to fix. The 3rd party vendor should have handled both the work around and how it should be in this case if possible. Well I hope this is not the case, I hope it is Dish's to fix, and I hope they fix it soon.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2003)

Wee,

Real, quality software companies have two things:

Testing and a beta cycle.

Then, when things (bugs) are found in testing or a beta cycle, they are evaluated for their impact and it is determined whether or not to be addressed based on a number of factors, one of which is how widespread the possible impact to the user base would be. It might be said that DN tested this code, it may be said it went through a beta cycle (7.80). If you go that route, then the part they screwed up is evaluated the impact of not fixing the issue as well as informing their support team properly.

I have worked in the software field for 17 years (I now hold the senior role on the e-business team at a publicly traded software company) and in my book, based on this one experience, DN is not a company with good software development or support policies.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Mark, you are probably right that 3 more days is a bit unrealistic. However, by many accounts this existed in the partial 780 roll out as well and was reported. They decided to roll out 781 despite that and also not give the users any way to roll back to the previous version of software in case there is a bug that does not affect everyone.
> 
> That point along with the unprofessionalism of the TSRs and the lack of a good knowledgebase is not acceptable. Although not affecting the largest group of users out there, it is a large group nonetheless.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth (and precious little I know), I agree with you.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Wee,
> 
> Real, quality software companies have two things:
> 
> ...


Well since we are quoting references, I have been a software Industry for 15 years. I have worked as both a DVT tester and a Software Engineer. I have been on teams the set bug priorities and determined release status. I have worked for a major networking company and storage company. I have also worked in ISO9000 environments. I have been in a situation where a bug poped it head up as a side effect of a MS based virus and spent the next 30 days 16 hours a day creating a product to patch a device so that customers machines would stop crashing... So I am well aware of small bugs and what the effect it can do. IN this case it effet over 1 million people. I understand you frustration and I have been there myself.. I am not saying it is not their fault, I am just saying that without all the facts I cant make that deterination. It does however look on the outside that this is their problem.

I am well aware of the software cycle as I am sure you are. There is a good possibility that they messed up here. I have tried both workarounds shooting through the IR Blaster and trying to reprogram the device. I also have just tried my Dish Remote and to my suprise I get similar behavor. It seems to be tied to the how long you old down the button. If you just hold it down for a brief second it does not registery. It takes holding it down for a little while to get the single. That is way it take two button presses sometimes. This also can explain why it may have stopped working with the Tivo.

However, I still believe my previous post on the other scenario is valid. You may disagree... But if a company fixes sloppy code and in doing that breakes a third party product that was not programming properly and it just worked by chance due to the bad code is it the OS vendor the the third parties problem. Interesting delemia and it does occur. I am not sure if this is the problem since I dont have much more to go on.

As for Real Software Companies... I have spent my life in Software Companies and in a number of cases Beta does not accomplish what some people my think. In a number of cases Beta is used as a early release and most people dont report the problems back. Beta is not as effective a tool as some people think based on my experience But that is another story.

Well for everyone sake, I hope Dish is watching and working on it to get to the root cause. ONce there they can determine the fix or issue a reason why this is happening.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

There are a couple of facts I think argue against Dish fixing a past bug here. First is the fact that the 6000 and just about every other receiver the have uses the same IR control set. Second, this is affecting different users, some who use codes built into devices like TiVo and others who use programmable remotes, some of which use built in code databases and others who learned the codes off the Dish remote directly. 

Since it seems to be contigent on how long the buttons are pressed, maybe someone with a Pronto can go in and edit the hex code and make it run twice. If that works then we have a workaround. I would do it but I set my 6000 to ask before downloading and I'm not about to give myself a bug just to test it.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2003)

Lee L said:


> There are a couple of facts I think argue against Dish fixing a past bug here. First is the fact that the 6000 and just about every other receiver the have uses the same IR control set. Second, this is affecting different users, some who use codes built into devices like TiVo and others who use programmable remotes, some of which use built in code databases and others who learned the codes off the Dish remote directly.
> 
> Since it seems to be contigent on how long the buttons are pressed, maybe someone with a Pronto can go in and edit the hex code and make it run twice. If that works then we have a workaround. I would do it but I set my 6000 to ask before downloading and I'm not about to give myself a bug just to test it.


You are a smart man Lee!!!

Hindsight...damn! This is why I think for their own benefit DN should have a rollback feature.



> In a number of cases Beta is used as a early release and most people dont report the problems back. Beta is not as effective a tool as some people think based on my experience But that is another story.


Wee, in general you are correct about betas not always being successful at bug-catching, but not in this case. DN did try a limited release with 780, but there were two problems with their "beta":

1. They did not release it to the right people. In other words study your installed base to try and actually have a wide distribution of people with differing environments. This takes effort, but it pays off big-time.

2. Clearly people provided this feedback on 780 as we see here on these boards...DN simply chose to ignore it or dismiss it as insignificant since their remote worked.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> You are a smart man Lee!!!
> 
> Hindsight...damn! This is why I think for their own benefit DN should have a rollback feature.


I totally agree here.. A rollback feature would really help in these situations. This type of thing is routinely down with routers for this exact reason. I think in this sitaution a single rollback would be helpful. My guess is they did not plan for it so dont have enough persistent storage for two images.



[email protected] said:


> Wee, in general you are correct about betas not always being successful at bug-catching, but not in this case. DN did try a limited release with 780, but there were two problems with their "beta":
> 
> 1. They did not release it to the right people. In other words study your installed base to try and actually have a wide distribution of people with differing environments. This takes effort, but it pays off big-time.


Yes I agree here that it would be helpful, but would require a lot of work in the area of inferstructure. My guess here is they don't the background for something like that. Also, They don't know what everyone is using outside there boxes either. My guess is very few people are using 6000s with TIVOs and Replys since the 6000 is an HD device. I would not expect them to consider this Use case heavily. I am not saying you guys dont count at all, I just see it as an unusual configuration.

For the people with the remotes, it is annoying but I would not consider it a Severity 1 bug.



[email protected] said:


> 2. Clearly people provided this feedback on 780 as we see here on these boards...DN simply chose to ignore it or dismiss it as insignificant since their remote worked.


Not sure if the TIVO/Replay with the 6000 was brought up while 780 was in beta.. Like I said the remote issue is rather annoying but not a Sev 1 in my opinion and that maybe how they see it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Lee L said:


> There are a couple of facts I think argue against Dish fixing a past bug here. First is the fact that the 6000 and just about every other receiver the have uses the same IR control set. Second, this is affecting different users, some who use codes built into devices like TiVo and others who use programmable remotes, some of which use built in code databases and others who learned the codes off the Dish remote directly.
> 
> Since it seems to be contigent on how long the buttons are pressed, maybe someone with a Pronto can go in and edit the hex code and make it run twice. If that works then we have a workaround. I would do it but I set my 6000 to ask before downloading and I'm not about to give myself a bug just to test it.


Possible, but just because everyone uses the same IR control set does not mean it is the same code base or even common code.

I am not familar with how IR works.. But when you press and hold down a button on the remote does it keep sending the singnal over and over again? When I did two quick button presses it resulted in a single presses consistently. Makes me think it has a additive effect. Seems like a timing thing from what I see and this is totally consistent with the fact that Tivo and Reply stopped working. However someone said they could change the duration and that did not fix the problem?? Hmmmm Wonder if they cranked the duration as long as they could... If this does not work, It either means the duration configuration is not long enough or there is another piece to the puzzle.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:



> I totally agree here.. A rollback feature would really help in these situations. This type of thing is routinely down with routers for this exact reason. I think in this sitaution a single rollback would be helpful. My guess is they did not plan for it so dont have enough persistent storage for two images


Storage of two images is not necessary. You simply add the box ID of the user to an update list for the last version of software and then the next time they shut off it will bring it down. This of course would mean that a user such as ourselves would have to call support, they would have to acknowledge the problem, and then select our box for version regression.

I am pretty sure they have this ability if they have already the ability to "limited release certain versions. Also, in this case, one version back would not work if the "last" "shipping"version was 780.

I would definately argue your position that since the 6000 is an HD box, most people would not have a Tivo on it. I would argue that both the Tivo and the 6000 are leading edge home entertainment devices used by early adopters. This makes them more likely, not less likely to use them together.

Trust me, this issue will become much bigger over time. The reason it has not already is that most Tivo/replay users NEVER turn off their DN receivers because they are always recording something 24 hours a day. The only time most DN+Tivo/Replay users will turn off their receivers is inadvertantly (me) or due to a power failure of some sort. I am 100% sure this is why it has not risen up on the importance scale and why Tivo/Replay reports on 780 were slim to none.

The fact is that DN cannot hide behind the menatlity that they are not responsible to understand how their equipment fits into the big home entertainment picture.

Should they test every device that can connect to their box before s/w release - NO

Should they test the top-10 devices, especially those that like programmable remotes and Tivo/Replay that have a very large installed base and rely on the communication via IR that they knew they modified - EMPHATIC YES!


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

I think their biggest problem will be the common user who calls up and says , "my remote isnt working very well", they are told to change batteries, they do and it still does it, so Dish sends out a bunch of replacement remotes and the users still report problems.

The Dish remote, at least for me, continues to have this problem too - occasional missed commands.

Maybe the software division is intentionally keeping this hush from the tech support folks, quietly fix it later, and sweep it under the rug...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Storage of two images is not necessary. You simply add the box ID of the user to an update list for the last version of software and then the next time they shut off it will bring it down. This of course would mean that a user such as ourselves would have to call support, they would have to acknowledge the problem, and then select our box for version regression.


Well based on this model it would become a huge undertaken and I can see why they would resist it.



[email protected] said:


> I would definately argue your position that since the 6000 is an HD box, most people would not have a Tivo on it. I would argue that both the Tivo and the 6000 are leading edge home entertainment devices used by early adopters. This makes them more likely, not less likely to use them together.


Yes we would argue this on. the 6000 is primarly used as a HDTV device. Tivo does not support HDTV so the only way the two can be used is in SD mode. This is the reason I would feel not many people would use it in this configuration. But obviously some are. My feeling is E* would see this as not a normal configuration.. The SD receivers yes but not and HD receiver. It is ok to argue and have a different opinion. 

Well I think we have exhausted the sides of the argument. I am sure you will do what you feel you should do. Good Luck!


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## jvidalc (Aug 30, 2002)

Just thought I chime in hear since I have the Replay 5080 plus the Dish 6000 configuration. I'm currently at D6000 software version 7.81 and the latest version 5.1 build 19 on the Replay and I'm not having the channel change problem with the IR blaster. 

I do have fine tuning enabled on the Replay with the following settings:

Code set 0775
Send Enter = YES
Minimum Digits = 3
InterAction Delay = 150
Response Delay = 50
Pre-Command Delay = 50
Inter-Command Delay = 150

Any other Replay user with the IR problem?
If so, try the above settings and post the results.


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## marko (Jan 9, 2003)

Did everybody try to hold the power button on the 6000 for 15-20 seconds? I have read in a couple places that this might help the problem, I was having problems, and this did seem to help. I could of been crazy, but it can't hurt to try it. I haven't seen on person that is having the problem admit they have tried powering off the machine for 15-20 seconds and say they still have the problem.


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## selim (Oct 14, 2003)

marko said:


> Did everybody try to hold the power button on the 6000 for 15-20 seconds? I have read in a couple places that this might help the problem, I was having problems, and this did seem to help. I could of been crazy, but it can't hurt to try it. I haven't seen on person that is having the problem admit they have tried powering off the machine for 15-20 seconds and say they still have the problem.


I tried that numerous times and that didn't help in my case. BTW, jvidalc, I used your IR blaster timing values but they didn't help either. Maybe it is because I have an older ReplayTV model (3060). I guess mine doesn't seem to send a long enough signal for Dish6000 to register it, and there isn't a timing parameter to adjust that length.

-Selim


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## jvidalc (Aug 30, 2002)

Just a shot in the dark but have you tried a different IR Blaster?


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## selim (Oct 14, 2003)

jvidalc said:


> Just a shot in the dark but have you tried a different IR Blaster?


Not sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting I order another IR blaster from ReplayTV? Or is this something that is commercially available? It is just a cable with two infrared transmitters at the end of it right?

-Selim


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2003)

Well, replayTV seems to have more IR settings than the Tivo with the fine tuning capability.

As for the Tivo/6000 usage. I use the 6000 in SD most of the time unless i plan on watching a HD program, then i switch over, no biggie.

I had comcast out today.  They hooked up all the gear turned on the system and then proceeded to tell me it was digital, but not on all channels...whats that all about!!!???

So, with my DN 6000 still connected and did a side-by-side PIP on my Samsung DLP projection TV and tuned both of them to Fox News. I quickly remembered why I had given up cable before (besides outages) and that was the quality. Fox News is still Analog on comcast and the picture was HORRIFIC.

So, here i am with a Tivo I can't use and that basically means a home entertainment system that is of no use.

THIS SUCKS

AND SO DO YOU DISH NETWORK!!!

Next Call, DirecTV!!!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Just a thought here, Have you checked to see if there is any Tivo hacks for IR? Tivo, from what I hear is actually very configurable. Maybe there is a hack that will get it working with Dish again. Might want to google it. 

I did a google on "Tivo Hack IR Dish Network 6000" and got a number of hits. My guess it would be a more general Hack. 

But then again DirecTV is a call a way..


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## jvidalc (Aug 30, 2002)

I believe IR Blasters can be bought at places like RadioShack or similar stores.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2003)

jvidalc said:


> I believe IR Blasters can be bought at places like RadioShack or similar stores.


It's not the IR Blaster, trust me.

1. Watching TV via Tivo
2. Inadvertently powered down 6000
3. Powered back on
4. Updating Please Wait" message on screen with %.
5. When finished, Tivo channel change no-worky anymore
6. Pretty simple case for deduction here.

Oh, by the way its not the remote batteries either...just in case someone would like to suggest that 8 )


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

I have Tivo and have no problems whatsoever with my 6000. Maybe you should fiddle with the remote code.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2003)

MedMech said:


> I have Tivo and have no problems whatsoever with my 6000. Maybe you should fiddle with the remote code.


Are you running 7.81 on your 6000? I bet you're not.

If you are, I would be interested in the device/speed setting you are using in the Tivo setup. Can you report back to me with that please?


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Are you running 7.81 on your 6000? I bet you're not.
> 
> If you are, I would be interested in the device/speed setting you are using in the Tivo setup. Can you report back to me with that please?


Yes I am. I will look to see what Tivo code I am running tonight. Insert foot in mouth coincidently my wife just notified me that Tivo was not changing channels. The very very weird thing is it was working this afternoon and it took the update last night.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2003)

Yep, I am pretty sure no one is using their Tivo consistently if they have a 6000 with 781.

If someone out there knows how to get it to work, I have $50 I am prepared to paypal to you right now!


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

I just got off the phone with D* advanced support and they said they have no clue why the Tivo stopped working. 

I have one thing to say. It will be working by the end of the day or bye bye $150.00 a month customer and big referral source hello Direct tv.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The word from my Dish contacts is nothing is going to be done to fix the 6000 IR problem until after the 811 and 921 are released next month because it affects a very small number of users and getting the 811 and 921 ready for release affects a large number of users.


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## faiello (Mar 17, 2003)

Mark Lamutt said:


> The word from my Dish contacts is nothing is going to be done to fix the 6000 IR problem until after the 811 and 921 are released next month because it affects a very small number of users and getting the 811 and 921 ready for release affects a large number of users.


This is the response I got from Dish on my remote problem.

Thank you for your email correspondence. We do not support other brands of remotes. We can change our systems and we cannot guarantee compatibility with other components. We can only suggest trying other codes for that remote.

Sincerely,

Julie J.

Technical Support

Dish Network


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

MedMech said:


> I just got off the phone with D* advanced support and they said they have no clue why the Tivo stopped working.
> 
> I have one thing to say. It will be working by the end of the day or bye bye $150.00 a month customer and big referral source hello Direct tv.


Just got off the phone with Dish I'm sending the receiver back for a full refund and account is cancelled.

Sorry Charlie.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2003)

What a bunch of babies. 

The Tivo remote doesn't work with the 6000. Get on Tivo to make their product work with others. After all it is Tivo's burden to work other machines, not the other's responsibility.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> What a bunch of babies.
> 
> The Tivo remote doesn't work with the 6000. Get on Tivo to make their product work with others. After all it is Tivo's burden to work other machines, not the other's responsibility.


Uh, so you are saying that device SHOULD be able to change the way it communicates via IR AFTER 2 years in the field and all of these other devices have programmed in the IR for them?

You know, this also affects most out there with programmable remotes, Tivos, and Replays (which may have a fix due to more advanced tweaking of their IR blaster).

My point is that they SHOULD not do this, and if it is a BUG, then provide a way for affected users to regress to an earlier version of firmware.

That point as well as the dismissive attitude from support will move me to another provider...at this point, I guess that is DirecTV.

I cannot wait until they get around to it...if at all.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

People! Points of interest:

1. If you possibly can, you just need to increase the length (or repeats) of the transmission, either by configuration, learning longer, or holding the button longer.

2. This is not an IR problem! It affects UHF and front panel buttons too in various magnitudes.

3. Dish has classified this as a LOW priority bug. Nothing you say will change that. 

4. This only affects the 6000, a manufacture discontinued product. Get your order ready for an 811 if you can't wait.

5. Ok, they introduced a new bug while trying to provide upward compatibility of an old product. **IT happens, they will fix it when they can, hang in there.

I hate this too, but as long as they acknowedge it and plan to fix it sometime in the near future, I can wait.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Lee


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## Sparkman87 (Apr 28, 2002)

gpflepsen said:


> What a bunch of babies.
> 
> The Tivo remote doesn't work with the 6000. Get on Tivo to make their product work with others. After all it is Tivo's burden to work other machines, not the other's responsibility.


Have to agree with our guest from Hotmail. I may have been the first one to notice this problem with our TIVO, so its has been 2 1/2 weeks since it started. TIVO has always worked fine with unit and it was a DISH upgrade that caused it to stop working. So, while it is TIVO's responsibility to make their unit work with DISH equipment, DISH is the one that made it stop working. Unfortunately, A TIVO remote does not allow you to control how long the blast to change channels is. If it did, we wouldn't be having this problem and & do think that TIVO should try to work on that.
I understand the DISH is putting this fix on the backburner and by doing that they are alienating a few loyal customers at the expense of the majority of existing customers and new customers for the 811 & 921. Is that a smart business decision. Probably, but it sure would go a long way toward keeping these few loyal customers happy if they would give us a perk to offset these problems. Do I Expect that? NO.

I'm kinda lucky in that I have 2 HDTV's, only 1 with a receiver until the 811/921 release. So, I'll move my 6000 to my TV w/o the TIVO and hook up an old 2800 to the TIVO until the 811/921 release. If the TIVO has a problem with the 811 I'm getting, that's when I'll be upset. In the meantime, like Lee, I'll be content to wait.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2003)

Let me clarify. The babies are those wanting a fix NOW and are stomping their feet proclaiming ultimatums if the situation isn't rectified by the end of today.

If I was affected I'd be a little miffed, but I wouldn't be throwing away my E* service to buy into another provider. And I sure wouldn't be crying here like a baby about it.


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> Let me clarify. The babies are those wanting a fix NOW and are stomping their feet proclaiming ultimatums if the situation isn't rectified by the end of today.
> 
> If I was affected I'd be a little miffed, but I wouldn't be throwing away my E* service to buy into another provider. And I sure wouldn't be crying here like a baby about it.


You don't get it were a low priority and it won't be fixed. If they could fix it in a week or 2 that would be fine, but that's not going to happen. I like the Dtv equipment better anyway. Also the CSR was of no help whatsoever. I am expressing my will as a consumer if Dish thought they could get away with more they would. I was planning 2 921's and 1 811 in the this winter but this stuff gave me the weeby jeebies with this kind of stuff in mind. I also had tremendous problems with my 508 which was replaced after 2 months of down time. I hope Sony treats me better.

So before you pass judgment make an ATTEMPT to look at the other guys point of view. Also view some of my other post's praising Dish.

I have 3 301's and a 508 for sale + the dish 500 and a dp34 let me know if you want a deal.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> Let me clarify. The babies are those wanting a fix NOW and are stomping their feet proclaiming ultimatums if the situation isn't rectified by the end of today.
> 
> If I was affected I'd be a little miffed, but I wouldn't be throwing away my E* service to buy into another provider. And I sure wouldn't be crying here like a baby about it.


Well, I was one of those affected, and believe me, it was VERY frustrating. Only about every other button click on my Harmony remote was recognized after the "upgrade". Dish should realize that many, many users are out there using various universal remotes, probably HD owners are even more likely to own a universal remote. Dish should continue to support a product long after they discontinue it. (The 6000 is still being sold by Dish today, at a reduced price.)

I was lucky enough to have a fix for my remote by changing the number of IR repeats being sent. But I sympathize with those that have remotes that won't work now. I don't blame them one bit for wanted to leave Dish, if Dish shows immediate sign of fixing this. I would hope Dish could just undo the code that caused this to happen in 780 and 781.

Otherwise, Dish is going to frustrate a lot of customers. And some of them will leave.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2003)

gpflepsen said:


> Let me clarify. The babies are those wanting a fix NOW and are stomping their feet proclaiming ultimatums if the situation isn't rectified by the end of today.
> 
> If I was affected I'd be a little miffed, but I wouldn't be throwing away my E* service to buy into another provider. And I sure wouldn't be crying here like a baby about it.


A namecaller. . . oh thats mature.

Well, I can't expect you to understand since YOU DON'T HAVE TIVO!

Tivo is like CRACK!

Do us a favor, if you can't add anything useful, take your namecalling somewhere else.

The point of our being so vocal about this is to hopefully keep the thread going, let other people know that they are not the first to have this issue, show DN that it does matter and that their are consequences for poor support.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Tivo is like CRACK? WOW!!! Boy... If TIVO could only bottle it.. I think that is a bit of an over statement, but I do have friend who was a long time Tivo person and used phrases like "Caught X-Files on Tivo last night!!".... He actually acted like Tivo was the content provider so I know and understand your attachment to this technology. Once you use a DVR not having this functionality sucks!

LIke I said earlier, your best bet is to swing on over to the TIVO forums and post the question on if there is a way to hack IR codes. TIVO is linuxed based and knowing a little about LINUX i know that everything seems to be in some config file. I would be surpris ed if there was not a way to work around this problem. 

As for fixing it, Like a number people have stated Dish made this decision based on a number of factors. I won't speculate why they made the move to update the 6000, but my guess is that they felt the fixes outweighed the downsides. We can speculate why they thought this, but it does no good. It is much better to deal with the facts... 

Like I said above, you have two paths. Change providers or look for a workaround. I would be surprised if one is not out there. 

I am going to look for one for my Pronto and hopefully the issue will be fixed as soon as they get through the 921 and 811 release. 

Throwing another 2 cents in..


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2003)

I just took on the 7.81 software upgrade. I have lost "almost" all of my channels. I have a 6000 receiver with 8VSB and 8PSK. I had America150...now I have "diddly". (I don't even have CNN.)

It's really weird, because some of the channels will come in, like 213. I can get it, but I can't get 200?

Here's the symtpoms:
(a.) When I look at the onscreen Guide, most of my channels are now highlighted in "red".

(b.) When I select one of them, or even enter the channel in directly with the remote, I get the standard message stating that the channel is part of a subscription package that I need to purchase.

I called DishNetwork Support. They told me that I was subscribed to American150 (Some Movie Channels and HDDisc). They saw no problems with my subscription or account.

Has anyone seen this before?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Juggernaught, it sounds like Dish needs to re-hit your box. Call them again, talk to tech support and suggest that they send the signal to your receiver again. That should get you your channels back.


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## Rickroeder (Oct 17, 2003)

Lost my Tivo with the upgrade also. I love my TIVO 100x more than my Dish. Name based recording on TIVO is miles ahead of dish's timed based. Both tech supports said they were unaware of the problem and said to talk to the other. So every night I have to auto-tune time and channel on 6000 for every show I want to record on TIVO for that night. That takes awhile since my receiver has to keep going to the satellite to download info.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2003)

Add me to the list of people whose Tivo died with the with the new 6000u update. Also, I am not willing to live without HD or TIVO until the problem is fixed. A couple of days would be one thing...next month is another. Guess I'll be a DirecTV customer soon. 

The DISH people may say its an isolated problem that affects only a few people...but I wonder how many people have no idea what happened. I originally thought my TIVO or IR blaster had failed. I bought another Blaster cable and was about to send my TIVO in for repairs until I stumbled across this info on the net. 


Harrumph!
JT


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## FNGold (Oct 9, 2003)

I wonder if any of you dedicated Harmony remote users would be willing to share with me your harmony configuration for the 6000u. I had been using the remote with my 501, and when i specify the 6000u it does not seem to want to accept the device as part of an activity. Thanks.


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## Sparkman87 (Apr 28, 2002)

I did switch receivers and the 2800 has absolutely no problem with TIVO. I have have problem with the 2800, it doesn't want to seem to hold the programming. Each night I've had to rerun the check switch in order to reactivate channels. 1 night I lost 119, then last night I lost just the networks from my locals. We'll see what nonight brings. The 6000 is working on another TV now without problems, but it has caused a dilemma for my son. His tv is backfed off of the tv where the 6000 is now.( was a 4000) Since the 6000 has no rf output, I had to use a modulator to backfeed his tv. But, since the 6000 does not output HD & SD at the same time, if I am watching HD on that tv, he cannot watch in his room. The 811 will fix that. I may just buy 2 811's and dump this 6000 unit.


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

FNGold:

What do you want to know about my Harmony config with the 6000u? I just added a variable MinRepeats, I think described here and at RemoteCentral.

PM me if you like and I'll try to help.

Also there is a posting at Remotcentral Harmony forum pertaining to how to add MinRepeats via the online interface for the 659. same for my 768.

Jeff


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2003)

MedMech said:


> Just got off the phone with Dish I'm sending the receiver back for a full refund and account is cancelled.
> 
> Sorry Charlie.


How did you get that out of them? I spent 40 minutes on the phone talk with numerous "supervisors" and the most I could get out of them was. "We're sorry but there is nothing we can do"
They were completely non-sympathetic to my problem. They would not even release me from my service agreement.

JT


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2003)

Add me to the list of pissed off TiVo users. I let my 6000 upgrade yesterday without reading this thread first. Now my TiVo can't change channels. I too, tried every code in the TiVo setup list at every speed.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Boy getting a lot of guests piping in on this one. Don't think I have seen a thread with so many guest posts.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2003)

Unfortunately I don't have much free time to spend in the forum, but when I need answers, I know this is the place to go.

BTW, I'm on the phone with Dish 2nd level tech support right now, about to be transfered to the next level. So far their line is that their box was never designed to be used with TiVo.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2003)

Advanced Tech Support is quite a bit more knowledgeable about the TiVo problem. They do have engineering working on the problem but do not know what is causing it. Their oversimplified response is that their remote control still works so all others should too, but they do admit that the 781 software broke 
(my word, not theirs) something and are trying to fix it.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Their remote does not work. It is time dependent. You press the button quickly and it does not register. I can see the IR get to the receiver because I have an IR repeater at the same spot. That is why people report that it takes multiple clicks. I also get the impress that the button presses are additive, but I could be wrong.


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

Flyboy917 said:


> How did you get that out of them? I spent 40 minutes on the phone talk with numerous "supervisors" and the most I could get out of them was. "We're sorry but there is nothing we can do"
> They were completely non-sympathetic to my problem. They would not even release me from my service agreement.
> 
> JT


I told them that it was working with my system when I bought it and it was their doing that made it not compatible. plain and simple. The CSR asked if I had it less than 60 days which is the case and I she gave me an RGA. Problem solved. I am delighted because my Dtv tivo's are on the way, $69 Tivo, + 2 Dolby digital receiver's installed with 1 year commitment.

I'm thrilled this happened, I have wanted a reason to switch and they provided it for me.

Let me ask this question, why do people let service providers walk all over them like Dish does? The flaky customer to customer policies are incredulous (look at the 6000 promotion thread).


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

MedMech said:


> I told them that it was working with my system when I bought it and it was their doing that made it not compatible. plain and simple. The CSR asked if I had it less than 60 days which is the case and I she gave me an RGA. Problem solved. I am delighted because my Dtv tivo's are on the way, $69 Tivo, + 2 Dolby digital receiver's installed with 1 year commitment.
> 
> I'm thrilled this happened, I have wanted a reason to switch and they provided it for me.
> 
> Let me ask this question, why do people let service providers walk all over them like Dish does? The flaky customer to customer policies are incredulous (look at the 6000 promotion thread).


UGhh, I've had mine for just over 100 days...and it worked for 100 days. I was a DirecTV customer until their End User Group (sic) convinced my that I did not want to be a paying customer anymore. The 6000u pissed me off from day one. The fan is noisy and the interface stinks. The DTC100 I was a far superior unit...so was all the DirecTV equipment I had. The sad thing is I was actually looking forward to the Superdish and the 921. Dish's customer support and crappy attitude has soured me completely. All I want is my system back to the way it was....but they don't seem to give a hoot.


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

Flyboy917 said:


> UGhh, I've had mine for just over 100 days...and it worked for 100 days. I was a DirecTV customer until their End User Group (sic) convinced my that I did not want to be a paying customer anymore. The 6000u pissed me off from day one. The fan is noisy and the interface stinks. The DTC100 I was a far superior unit...so was all the DirecTV equipment I had. The sad thing is I was actually looking forward to the Superdish and the 921. Dish's customer support and crappy attitude has soured me completely. All I want is my system back to the way it was....but they don't seem to give a hoot.


I feel the same way business wise I feel that E* is the lessser of both evils, but time is precious when i have time to watch tv I would like it to work. Since D* has so many manufactures working on technology competeing against each other there's no way that E* can compete. Have you seen the Sony or Samsung HD boxs or Direct Tivo? They are so far above anything that E* has it's not even funny.

I am not slamming Charlie, all of the problems that I have encountered with the equipment just became too much to and losing my Tivo was the straw that broke the camels back.


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## pinkertonfloyd (Jun 5, 2002)

Ever since the upgrade I'm getting "wrong" channel information, IE: Right now on ESPN I have "Lesbian Lust" PPV "Purchase" screen. Last night it did it to FOX News. It's been happening off and on for the last week. Seems to do it when I switch from Off-Air HDTV back to Sat. If I unplug the unit (forcing a redownload of information) it's corrected... Or wait about 20 mins (I'm guessing til the next update comes).

It's annoying especially when it confuses PPV content on a "basic" channel. Because I have to unplug and wait. 

UGH!

With all of the f'ups lately I think Dish owes us a free upgrade to the newer HDTV recievers, the 6000 seems to be on it's last leg.


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

pinkertonfloyd said:


> With all of the f'ups lately I think Dish owes us a free upgrade to the newer HDTV recievers, the 6000 seems to be on it's last leg.


Sadly, I think that they would actually do this to promote the upgrade.


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

Here is a copy of a letter I emailed to everyone I can find at Dish.
Think it will get me anything?????

One VERY unhappy customer:
Three months ago, I switched from DirecTV to DISH Network. I spent over $1000 getting two satellite dishes, some giant (expensive) switch, a three room system, and an HDTV 6000u box. 

I was very happy. My home entertainment system worked flawlessly. Dolby, HDTV, TIVO, large screen TV, and DISH, all worked together. Then, three weeks ago, you sent out a software upgrade to my 6000u. Now my home theater system does not work flawlessly. My TIVO doesn’t work anymore with my 6000u. My wife is furious and my kids don’t know how to change the channel. I took the 6000u out and put in a 301 from the kids bedroom. I’ve had to unplug and restart the 301 a couple of times now because it locks up. Unacceptable! But hey, now the wife can use TIVO and the kids can change the channel…in the family room. But now the kids don’t have any TV in their bedroom now and I don’t have HDTV…which is why I paid $1000 for the system in the first place. I could have gotten a non HDTV three room system for free!!!

Now, the kicker, your tech support is not even aware of the problem. From Internet forums I can see that many people are now having this problem. Your tech support says that even if there is a problem, TIVO support is not their problem. I disagree. The equipment that I bought for $1000 did support TIVO and worked fine. Now, with your software upgrade I can no longer use the equipment that I paid $1000 for! Had my 6000u not worked from day one I would have taken it back.

Your customer service representative, Mr. Adam Whittemore, seems to think that my $1000 investment not working as it used to, is of no consequence. I asked for my money back and his answer was no. I asked to be released for my contract…the answer was no. 
With your software update, THIS IS NOT THE SAME PIECE OF EQUIPMENT THAT I PAID $1000 DOLLARS FOR!

I researched my equipment extensively before switching from DirecTV to Dish Network. It worked the way I thought it would work until recently but now I have a $1000 piece of junk. I’m astounded that Dish Network is completely unsympathetic to my and my family’s problem. This is customer service? “Oh, your equipment doesn’t work like the day you bought it? We changed it, and we don’t care.” 

I’m disgusted.

John Tarr


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

MedMech said:


> Have you seen the Sony or Samsung HD boxs or Direct Tivo? They are so far above anything that E* has it's not even funny.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

Hi, flyboy 

Your letter is very interesting, I have the exact same problem I put $11,000 of equipment together and friggin Dish makes it not work any more. My contract with E" is up at the end of the month so I am free to go, I think if you wanted to exercise a breach of contract you would win hands down, based on the fact that they changed the equipment after you purchased it.

I am eager to get my Direct tivo and the sony high def box, the HD direct tivo is due out in early 04 and is expected to be in the 600-700 range. In the mean time Circuit City has 35 hr Tivos for $99.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Do you really think the Direct HD Tivo will be our first quarter of 04?  I would be willing to take that bet in a heart beat. 

As for the IR issue on the 6000u, Have the tivo people in the tivo community unable to come up with a work around? Tivo seems to be rather hackable so I would expect some workaround. I am rather suprised the Tivo community could not come up with one. 

I am also having the problem with my Pronto TSU3000 with the unreliable key presses and I was expecting my 72 yr old Japanese mother in law to have a problem with it but for some strange reason she was able to adapt.  I am rather surprised.


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## selim (Oct 14, 2003)

How about bringing up this issue at the next Charlie Chat? It will air live on November 10th 9:00pm EST on channel 101, so if everyone following this thread calls in or e-mails, maybe we can get ourselves heard and they may do something about it.

-Selim


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Do you really think the Direct HD Tivo will be our first quarter of 04?  I would be willing to take that bet in a heart beat.


Dish better hope not or this "little" problem that has infuriated a "few" customers will inevitably lead to a "small" defection to the other side!



WeeJavaDude said:


> As for the IR issue on the 6000u, Have the tivo people in the tivo community unable to come up with a work around? Tivo seems to be rather hackable so I would expect some workaround. I am rather suprised the Tivo community could not come up with one.


The Series2 Tivo is not as "hackable" as previous models. Not only that, hacking it is way over the head of most users.

Dish only needs to remember one rule of business: Service your customers, every single one, or someone else will!


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

tbfu, 

Have you heard of anyone trying hard to find a work around? I am not a tivo user so I have not been roming the Tivo forums.. Figured that you and a few others would be. 

And I agree with servicing your customer, however, I have found most companies to be rather poor on issues similar to this one.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> tbfu,
> 
> Have you heard of anyone trying hard to find a work around? I am not a tivo user so I have not been roming the Tivo forums.. Figured that you and a few others would be.
> 
> And I agree with servicing your customer, however, I have found most companies to be rather poor on issues similar to this one.


The only solution for series2 users like myself is a s/w update on Tivos or Dish Networks side.

This seriously sucks. . .


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Sorry to hear it.. That does suck. Thought there would be a work around on the Tivo side since it is more open.


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## Rickroeder (Oct 17, 2003)

I disconnected my 6000 and replaced it with my old 4900. Put 6000 up for sale. Ordered free 510 from Dish tonight. God its great to have my TIVO working again even if I have to give up on HD until the 921 comes out. My wife can work the TV again. Life is back to normal.


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

Great.... so Dish gets a new 2 year commitment for providing us this bug


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

For what it's worth:

I got an email reply from Dish tech support today that actually acknowledged the problem AND promised a fix:

"Thank you for your email correspondence. We are sending out software to change this in the new release. At this time, we do not have information as to when this software will be sent out. However, this is listed in our known receiver issues for the 6000 (IR issues). "

Wow, that makes me feel better! What the heck does the "However" mean?

JT


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2003)

I was hoping that TiVo might come through for us but I just received this email from them...

> Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. I understand 
> your DVR could no longer change channels on you satellite 
> receiver after Dish Network made a change to the software.
> 
> Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with this issue. 
> You may need to contact Dish Network again regarding this issue.

I guess it's up to Dish Network to fix the problem they created.


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## minesh1 (Nov 1, 2003)

Any word on when we might see a patch for this software release? I'm really p****d at Dish for doing this and rendering my HT gear unusable. I wish I could switch to DirecTV but I have to get the International Channels that only Dish carries.


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

minesh1 said:


> Any word on when we might see a patch for this software release? I'm really p****d at Dish for doing this and rendering my HT gear unusable. I wish I could switch to DirecTV but I have to get the International Channels that only Dish carries.


E* has got you by the kahuna's when it comes to international programing. If you need/want it you don't have much of a choice.

The thing that gets me, is that many people just don't understand what TIVO is. Once a TIVO user always a TIVO user. You just can't go back.

And with that...the new D* equipment went in today....bye E* You really blew it.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2003)

Flyboy917 said:


> E* has got you by the kahuna's when it comes to international programing. If you need/want it you don't have much of a choice.
> 
> The thing that gets me, is that many people just don't understand what TIVO is. Once a TIVO user always a TIVO user. You just can't go back.
> 
> And with that...the new D* equipment went in today....bye E* You really blew it.


Tell me how it goes flyboy...time is running out for E* with me. I already tried comcast, but told the installer to take it out when i did a side-by-side PIP with E* and the quality was $H!T. Comcast doesn't tell you up front that the most important cable stations are still ANALOG!

So, Flyboy, I am waiting to hear from you and others about the quality of service. My biggest concern in switching is the future of HDTV and the fact that E* seems to have more bandwidth available and D* might start compressing the signal more to fit in more channels.

But, E* better realize real soon that customer issues need to be dealt with in a much better manner. Word of mouth is the best ROI advertising there is. On the flip side, with word of mouth, nothing will doom you faster than negative ground swell of customer service issues...especially in this internet age.

*They should remember that tech-savvy people like us forum folks are the ones that grandma, grandpa, sister, and brother all come to to ask questions like "I want one of those new-fangled satellite thingys, do you know who I should go with?"*


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

> But, E* better realize real soon that customer issues need to be dealt with in a much better manner. Word of mouth is the best ROI advertising there is. On the flip side, with word of mouth, nothing will doom you faster than negative ground swell of customer service issues...especially in this internet age.


tbfu2000,

If this was the case, Microsoft would have fallen ages ago. 
Yes people come to Tech savvy people all the time. I had someone ask me last night about Satellite.

I have had my share of lumps with Dish and have also been effected by the 6000 IR bug as yourself. However, I also have a strong understanding of software development and more of understanding of defect exposure than the average person so I tend to accept these set backs a bit more than most. When I reply to this person, I am going to find what their requirements are and offer up an opinion. This bug will not effect my recommendation one bit.

It is also my opinion that when someone runs into bug that creates major customer pain, the tendency is to see things as a huge ugly piece of crap. Well in some cases that is true, but usually this is not the case at all.

The main issue with this bug is that it effects TIVO and Reply users to the point they cannot use their boxes. Based on the fact that people have gotten very used to this technology, introducing this bug is worse than anything Dish could have done in the eyes of the TIVO and Reply users. The fact that Dish classified this bug as Moderate makes things even worse. You yourself liken having TIVO to being on Crack. When you don't have it, you go into withdrawals. I know people that won't go to HD because there is no TIVO for HD. A very passionate group indeed. Actually I agree with Dish on the classification based on the fact it is a HD receiver and that my guess would be a small percentage of people are using the HD Reciever in combination with a TIVO or REPLY. It does not make the customer pain of this group any less though.

I am sure this bug will cause some people to jump to D*. However, I am sure it is small number and word of mouth might result in loss sales. But if SuperDish brings about significant HD offerings, the numbers will be back filled by people jumping for D* to E* for the HD content. In either case both number are small compared to the overall sub base of both companies.

Also, in my opinion constantly bringing up the same point only weakens one point. But that is my opinion and my opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

OK, now I am hella pissed.

I had set my 6000 to ask permission before downloading and now I have come back from vacation to find that my remote is not working well. Sometimes I have to push the button twice and every once in a while it will work. I check the settings and now I have 7.81 and the SW page has been reset to "without my permission".

Plus the reason why I was wathing the 6000 is because my DishPlayer had the Choose TV listing to download guide info 10 minute download (that is closer to 30) crap on it when I got home.


Oh and even with the new and improved SW, I had the receiver tuned to Disc-HD all week and I still have 1 hour of guide. I'm assuming that 150 hours or so should be sufficient to get the extra info this great new SW is supposed to give us.

E*, why do you treat customers this way!!!!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> tbfu2000,
> If this was the case, Microsoft would have fallen ages ago.


No comparison, MS is a true monopoly, there is no other comparable choice, nor has their been one since the beginning of the PC...remember, I said "comparable". With satellite, there is!



WeeJavaDude said:


> I am sure this bug will cause some people to jump to D*. However, I am sure it is small number and word of mouth might result in loss sales. But if SuperDish brings about significant HD offerings, the numbers will be back filled by people jumping for D* to E* for the HD content. In either case both number are small compared to the overall sub base of both companies.


This is the biggest mistake many companies (other than MS) make in being complacent about quality of product and quality of customer service. I am only speaking here about the 6000/Tivo bug, but CS issues like the ones we have experienced are surely much more rampant in E* on a number of product issues other than this one.



WeeJavaDude said:


> Also, in my opinion constantly bringing up the same point only weakens one point.


No, it doesn't, it simply reminds E* and others that E* is not addressing customer concerns and also lets others see that its not just them, that there are others...count how many here and on Tivo boards and realize that this is probably only .5% of those affected. If 25% of those bolt, that is still a significant amount of revenue over the next two years not to mention the 5 people I will persuade towards D* instead of E*. This little bug could easily result in $1500-$1750K in lost revenue...for a company that continually loses money on their balance sheet, that might come in handy.



WeeJavaDude said:


> But that is my opinion and my opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.


Lots of opinion from you too. Seems you are always quick here to defend E* and post just as much as I. Maybe you are a Charlie spy ;-)


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> No comparison, MS is a true monopoly, there is no other comparable choice, nor has their been one since the beginning of the PC...remember, I said "comparable". With satellite, there is!


I would have to disagree here, There were and are still choices. Mac and Linux as two. There were plenty of bad word of mouth on MS in the early days and it did not help and there is a huge amount today. Is this shrinking there sales?

We could discuss them one for ages, so I will leave it as we disagree here.



[email protected] said:


> This is the biggest mistake many companies (other than MS) make in being complacent about quality of product and quality of customer service. I am only speaking here about the 6000/Tivo bug, but CS issues like the ones we have experienced are surely much more rampant in E* on a number of product issues other than this one.


There is no evidence at all as to it being much more rampant. If you go by what is on this board. Look at the posting ratio so I would not go as far as making that statement.



[email protected] said:


> No, it doesn't, it simply reminds E* and others that E* is not addressing customer concerns and also lets others see that its not just them, that there are others...count how many here and on Tivo boards and realize that this is probably only .5% of those affected. If 25% of those bolt, that is still a significant amount of revenue over the next two years not to mention the 5 people I will persuade towards D* instead of E*. This little bug could easily result in $1500-$1750K in lost revenue...for a company that continually loses money on their balance sheet, that might come in handy.


So this bug will cost 1.7M in lost revenue over the next year? I would have to doubt it. And as for .5%.. I guess the number if even lower than that.



[email protected] said:


> Lots of opinion from you too. Seems you are always quick here to defend E* and post just as much as I. Maybe you are a Charlie spy ;-)


LOL .. I was waiting for a comment like that. No I don't work for Dish or any other DBS company. I am a software Engineer with experience working in major storage and networking company environments. As for opinions, never claimed any facts in my post did I? As for defending E*, I don't feel I am just offering up my take as you are.

When something happens and it causes pain, I see the following scenario happen (I have done it a few times myself).

If the person is a techy person, he tries to find out the problem. If it turns out to be a bug, the person tries to get it fixed. If he finds out the company won't fix it quickly, they tend to get rather verbose with the world about what a horrible company it is.

The fact is that we are a small majority of D* and E* customers. We tend to be on the bleeding edge and tend to do things the average person would not (Hooking up a TIVO to an HD receiver). I am not saying there is anything wrong with doing that, I am just saying the average Joe would not do it. The result is that we run into a lot more problems than the average person.

I started posting to this thread not because I love E*. I started posting to try and level the perspective and not make the thread just a bashing thread. I thought I would offer up my experience in software deployment and as a 6000 user who also is experiencing some grief from the bug offer up another side to the discussion.

Also, as you might have checked, I am thinking about going 921, I starting looking at some of the 721 bashing that Bob Haler has been doing at every possible turn. Turns out that though the 721 is not a perfect product, it is not the non-functional piece of **** that Bob would tend to make one believe. Maybe that is why you think I am a E* spy. Well I can assure you I am not.

There are two things I feel we will never know and I don't think we can predict.

1) When they will have a fix. 
2) The financial impact that this bug will cause dish. My guess is that it will be well below the 1.7M estimate you had, but one will never know.


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

Just spent 30 minutes on the phone with E* disconnection my service. I went up four levels of customer service. They would NOT release me from my service contract.
I explained to them that three months ago I spent $1000 on a new HD Dish system and that for the last three months it worked fine. I also explained that had the system not worked with my Tivo I would have taken it back on day one.....yadaa yadaa yadda....

"we will not be held liable for third party products not working with out system." 

I explained that I no longer have the system that I paid for and that they broke it.

"we will not be held liable for third party products not working with out system." 

Ok, I've lost $1000, release me from the service agreement or should I make my loses $1240?

"we will not be held financially liable for third party products not working with out system." 

What about Customer Satisfaction? 

"we will not be held liable for third party products not working with out system." 

It's pretty obvious to me that E* see's no correlation between customer service and their bottom line.

Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JT


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## Flyboy917 (Oct 25, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Tell me how it goes flyboy...time is running out for E* with me. I already tried comcast, but told the installer to take it out when i did a side-by-side PIP with E* and the quality was $H!T. Comcast doesn't tell you up front that the most important cable stations are still ANALOG!
> 
> So, Flyboy, I am waiting to hear from you and others about the quality of service. My biggest concern in switching is the future of HDTV and the fact that E* seems to have more bandwidth available and D* might start compressing the signal more to fit in more channels.


tbfu,
I've been a D* customer before. Also a D* HDTV user. I honestly have never noticed any degradation of picture quality, on any channel, due to compression. HD is on D* was stellar and looks stellar again. 
As for the HDTV future...the vast majority of HDTV content for years is going to be up-converted non-HD content...or just DTV. How many channels of that do you need? I.e. garbage in...garbage out. Just because the show is broadcast in HD doesn't mean it was recorded in HD.

Flyboy


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## buddhawood (Nov 4, 2003)

Lee L said:


> OK, now I am hella pissed.
> 
> I had set my 6000 to ask permission before downloading and now I have come back from vacation to find that my remote is not working well. Sometimes I have to push the button twice and every once in a while it will work. I check the settings and now I have 7.81 and the SW page has been reset to "without my permission".
> 
> I had the same thing happen to me last week! I thought I was going crazy! My tivo stopped working between 2:00am and 9:00 am on weds. 29th and the rest is history. How did it upgrade without permission and with out the power being off?? I now have to dig out the old 3900 and de-activate the 6000 until they fix this. I'll take tivo over HD anyday.( just my opinion!)


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## MedMech (Sep 21, 2003)

Flyboy917 said:


> Just spent 30 minutes on the phone with E* disconnection my service. I went up four levels of customer service. They would NOT release me from my service contract.
> I explained to them that three months ago I spent $1000 on a new HD Dish system and that for the last three months it worked fine. I also explained that had the system not worked with my Tivo I would have taken it back on day one.....yadaa yadaa yadda....
> 
> "we will not be held liable for third party products not working with out system."
> ...


"We will not be held liable for third party products working with our system?"

I heard that one and I then asked if that included my television. Shortly after that I was released. Call on a Saturday morning it seems the better (nicer) reps work that day. You could also try around 4-5 on Friday before the next shift comes in and keep that person on the phone until they flip. Persistence is a necessity with Charlie or you will get screwed every time.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2003)

E* Released a new version this week that fixes the Remote issues with TiVO! Version 7.83

I am so happy, I can use my Tivo again with 6000!

Thank you E*


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## ride525 (Aug 13, 2003)

ybrian said:


> E* Released a new version this week that fixes the Remote issues with TiVO! Version 7.83
> 
> I am so happy, I can use my Tivo again with 6000!
> 
> Thank you E*


For some reason, the 783 release did NOT fix my Harmony 768 remote. I still have to set MINREPEATS variable to "4". "1" and "2" do not work with 783, just like they did not work with 781.

UPDATE: It does work with the new 783 upgrade! I took out the whole code I'd added for MINREPEATS = 4 for the 781 upgrade, instead of just changing the value, and things are back to normal.
(I also reset the 6000 receiver, don't know if that had any effect.)
Thanks Dish.


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