# Eastern Arc and E*11



## Stephen J (Mar 26, 2006)

How will E*11 be able to provide more HD channels, if E* is planning on putting new HD customers onto the Eastern Arch, that won’t see E*11? Are they gonna have to put whatever channels are on E*11 on to one of the EA birds too? Is E*11 basically going to be used for the western Arch?


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

But all content on eastern arc is MPEG-4, all those big fat SD channels now only occupy 1/2 the bandwidth that they did, leaving essentially one full satellite's worth of TP's for new HD. More than 100 HD channels worth of extra room.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Stephen J said:


> How will E*11 be able to provide more HD channels, if E* is planning on putting new HD customers onto the Eastern Arch, that won't see E*11? Are they gonna have to put whatever channels are on E*11 on to one of the EA birds too? Is E*11 basically going to be used for the western Arch?


Yes, all the national channels at the 110/119 W slots will be put onto satellites at 61.5/72.7/77 W although I believe almost all of it will be on 61.5 and 72.7. Dish is not going to put national HD programming on the Eastern Arc that is not available for the rest of their HD customers. I believe if there is a bandwidth shortage for national HD it is on the Western Arc and the E-11 satellite may alleviate this shortage.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

EchoStar has filed a request for Special Temporary Authority to operate EchoStar 8 at the 77 west location(an Eastern Arc location). EchoStar 11 will have to replace EchoStar 8 in order for this to happen. Additional HD channels can then be placed at 110 and additional HD channels can then be placed at 77. This seems to provide more HD for both Arcs, all because EchoStar 11 is going to 110. 

Maybe rocatman can get the link for the application which was announced in Todays Daily Digest.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

JohnH said:


> EchoStar has filed a request for Special Temporary Authority to operate EchoStar 8 at the 77 west location(an Eastern Arc location). EchoStar 11 will have to replace EchoStar 8 in order for this to happen. Additional HD channels can then be placed at 110 and additional HD channels can then be placed at 77. This seems to provide more HD for both Arcs, all because EchoStar 11 is going to 110.
> 
> Maybe rocatman can get the link for the application which was announced in Todays Daily Digest.


Below is the FCC website address that includes the narrative of what Dish want to do with the E-8 satellite at 77W. I still believe that E-8 at 77 W will be used for HD locals at least initially. Dish should have plenty of room near term to add national HD channels at 61.5 W and 72.7 W.

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-149780

Dish also has a second FCC filing that only requesting moving E-8 to 77 W. This needs to be approved first but based on what was done for E-6, takes less time to approve since there is a minimum amount of interference issues associated with just moving a satellite as opposed to providing programming from it at a different slot.

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-149766


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Jim5506 said:


> But all content on eastern arc is MPEG-4, all thise big fat SD channels now only occupy 1/2 the bandwidth that they did, leaving essentially one full satellite's worth of TP's for new HD. More than 100 HD channels worth of extra room.


Where do you get that all of the Eastern Arc channels will be MPEG4? There are millions of MPEG2 receivers that will still need to work to get SD channels, and Dish isn't going to swap all of them out just to be able to change them to a single dish. The *HD* channels are all MPEG4 of course, but the SDs will stay MPEG2 for a long time to come.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

IIP said:


> Where do you get that all of the Eastern Arc channels will be MPEG4? There are millions of MPEG2 receivers that will still need to work to get SD channels, and Dish isn't going to swap all of them out just to be able to change them to a single dish. The *HD* channels are all MPEG4 of course, but the SDs will stay MPEG2 for a long time to come.


Eastern Arc has no subscribers at the present time, So the MPEG2 only receivers are of no concern. Only new Subscribers will get Eastern Arc and they will get MPEG4 receivers.


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## homeskillet (Feb 3, 2004)

All the Eastern Arc channels have been uplinked in MPEG 4.


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## spear61 (Sep 19, 2004)

IIP said:


> Where do you get that all of the Eastern Arc channels will be MPEG4? There are millions of MPEG2 receivers that will still need to work to get SD channels, and Dish isn't going to swap all of them out just to be able to change them to a single dish. The *HD* channels are all MPEG4 of course, but the SDs will stay MPEG2 for a long time to come.


72.7 and 77 are/will be 100 percent MPEG4. You will not be able to receive them without a MPEG4 receiver. SD continues as MPEG2 on 61.5, 110, 119, and 129.

They told us in the latest earning conference that they are phasing out the sale of MPEG2 receivers and expect to stop sales by year end 2008. They went on to say that they expect existing customers to gradually chose to switch to new MPEG4 boxes and that the phaseout of MPEG2 will be complete in 3-5 years.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

You cannot get Eastern Arc without all MPEG-4 equipment. That is why it is for new subs only in the beginning.

MPEG-4 is the point of the whole plan, as I understand it.

Noting all the SD channels uplinked on 72.7 a couple of days ago were SD MPEG-4.

Over 400 MPEG-4 SD channels uplinked:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/uplink-...ivity-report-8-6-2008-2-02pm-488-changes.html


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

Wow, I didn't realize that they were limiting Eastern Arc to just new customers. That's a good plan, IMO, but I'm sure it's going to upset a lot of existing customers, especially those with LOS issues today. Oh well, can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs!


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## spear61 (Sep 19, 2004)

IIP said:


> Wow, I didn't realize that they were limiting Eastern Arc to just new customers. That's a good plan, IMO, but I'm sure it's going to upset a lot of existing customers, especially those with LOS issues today. Oh well, can't make an omelette without cracking some eggs!


Estimated Feb 09 for existing customers. Probably having a dish supply problem and lack of technicians for installations for EA and have calculated that they can max income by supplying new customers first.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I think EA is a non-starter at my house - trees. It's marginal enough on 119 as it is...

61.5 is possible (I think - I'm going to check LOS before August is done), but I'm not sure about the rest.


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## jefbal99 (Sep 7, 2007)

scooper said:


> I think EA is a non-starter at my house - trees. It's marginal enough on 119 as it is...
> 
> 61.5 is possible (I think - I'm going to check LOS before August is done), but I'm not sure about the rest.


119 is way WEST of 61.5

The Eastern Arc is 61.5, 72.7 and 77.x


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I hope they will at least make the _channels_ available to existing subscribers even if they won't sell the service to existing customers.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Info from yesterday's Retailer Chat has been added to the EKB Eastern Arc page.


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> Info from yesterday's Retailer Chat has been added to the EKB Eastern Arc page.


If you look at the pictures, you can see that Voom sponsored their lunch


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

They don't serve lunch at "Retailer Chats" since the retailers are all over the country. What picture are you speaking of?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

He's probably thinking of Team Summit pictures.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I thought maybe they were doing microwave delivery.


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

Is there any info out on the new equipment? as the only mpeg4 equipment available now is the ViP series HD boxes.
I'm looking at upgrading, but putting it on hold pending finding out more about what's going on with new receivers.
I just don't want to have to spend $100+ and lock in for 24 months to get equipment that will be obsolete in a couple months.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

The way local channels are being uplinked for Eastern Arc a HD box will be needed even if it only puts out SD, since the big 4 are only being uplinked in HD.

i wonder if a digital only TV will ever be legal since some channels are not required to go digital in 2009.


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

spear61 said:


> 72.7 and 77 are/will be 100 percent MPEG4. You will not be able to receive them without a MPEG4 receiver. SD continues as MPEG2 on 61.5, 110, 119, and 129.
> 
> They told us in the latest earning conference that they are phasing out the sale of MPEG2 receivers and expect to stop sales by year end 2008. They went on to say that they expect existing customers to gradually chose to switch to new MPEG4 boxes and that the phaseout of MPEG2 will be complete in 3-5 years.


This would imply either, they are coming out with new SD MPEG4 equipment, or all new customers will be getting HD capable equipment even if they don't need it.

If there's no new equipment, when the MPEG2 stop selling, they would either give VIP receivers with no $7 HD enabling charge, or?

the current MPEG2 boxes that would be going away are the 311, 322, and 625
the current MPEG4 boxes are ViP211, 222, 612, 622, 722


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> i wonder if a digital only TV will ever be legal since some channels are not required to go digital in 2009.


I see no requirement that a TV of any size has an NTSC tuner. There are requirements for TVs with tuners to have an ATSC tuner, but not an NTSC tuner.

Future TVs without NTSC will simply not be as usable as TVs with NTSC ... with that gap closing as less NTSC sources are available.


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## kstuart (Apr 25, 2002)

James Long said:


> I see no requirement that a TV of any size has an NTSC tuner. There are requirements for TVs with tuners to have an ATSC tuner, but not an NTSC tuner.


Actually, the FCC requires all TVs to have an ATSC tuner. "Monitors" are now illegal, except for ones sold in professional channels, or computer hardware channels.

Some TV manufacturers received fines of several million dollars, back some months ago...


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Looks like satellite is not really ready for the Digital Only scenario, if your TV does not have an analog tuner or NTSC input capability.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Do they make ATSC capable TVs without AV inputs?
I only have one NTSC TV that doesn't have AV inputs ... I bought it in 1984.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

kstuart said:


> Actually, the FCC requires all TVs to have an ATSC tuner. "Monitors" are now illegal, except for ones sold in professional channels, or computer hardware channels.
> 
> Some TV manufacturers received fines of several million dollars, back some months ago...


Wrong answer -

IF a TV has any tuners on it at all , it has to have at least an ATSC DTV tuner. If it is being sold with only an NTSC (analog) tuner, then the retailer MUST display a placard/notice stating that this TV will no longer receive OTA broadcasts after Feb 18, 2009. And NOT having the placard/notice is what got the retailers in trouble.

There is nothing wrong with selling only a "monitor" with no tuners.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

James Long said:


> Do they make ATSC capable TVs without AV inputs?
> I only have one NTSC TV that doesn't have AV inputs ... I bought it in 1984.


I have a 12 inch B/W Sears TV that I got around that time that only has RF in - and it's NOT coax ! I have had an adapter on it for several years now.... My CECBs work just fine on channel 4 feeding this TV (after fine tuning it)


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

KevinRS said:


> This would imply either, they are coming out with new SD MPEG4 equipment, or all new customers will be getting HD capable equipment even if they don't need it.
> 
> If there's no new equipment, when the MPEG2 stop selling, they would either give VIP receivers with no $7 HD enabling charge, or?
> 
> ...


What about the 301's?


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

kal915 said:


> What about the 301's?


wasn't the 301 replaced by the 311 a while back? as far as I know, the 301 isn't available anymore, unless some retailer just still has old stock around.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Refurbs are still available. The retailer I installfor just got 2 from Dish last week.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

DirecTV subscriber here. 

Please tell me more about this eastern arc plan. For some reason this is the first I have heard of it. Am I correct in what I have read so far (in the last 10 minutes!) that DISH will be able to (or is able to) now provide all of their SD and HD programming from satellite locations a 61.5, 72.7 and 77? All in MPEG-4? Is it all Ku?

If so, wow! 

I live in Georgia and am not a DISH customer now partially because I do not have good line of site to 110 and 119. It is good to hear DISH might be an option in the future. (I am happy with my current DirecTV service)


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> DirecTV subscriber here.
> 
> Please tell me more about this eastern arc plan. For some reason this is the first I have heard of it. Am I correct in what I have read so far (in the last 10 minutes!) that DISH will be able to (or is able to) now provide all of their SD and HD programming from satellite locations a 61.5, 72.7 and 77? All in MPEG-4? Is it all Ku?
> 
> ...


Yep ... it is a pretty good "wow". The downside is that non-MPEG4 receivers will not work on the new system ... so if it isn't a ViP receiver it isn't going to work with the new system. But for new customers (all ViP receivers) it will be a nice "one dish" system pointing south east.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

How many transponders does DISH have at these locations? This is all Ku?


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

tkrandall said:


> I live in Georgia and am not a DISH customer now partially because I do not have good line of site to 110 and 119. It is good to hear DISH might be an option in the future. (I am happy with my current DirecTV service)


BTW, unless you SD locals are on 119 or you're getting some international programming that's not on 101 you don't need 110 or 119 anymore, all the HD channels are now on 99 and 103 and that's what you're using now if you have the AT-9/AU-9 dish and a MPEG4 receiver. In fact DirecTV has come out with a new Slimline dish that doesn't even look at 110 or 119 for the folks that don't need those two positions.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> How many transponders does DISH have at these locations? This is all Ku?


DISH has license to 30 and legal use of all 32 transponders at 61.5° ... many of those transponders are used as spot beams and some transponders are unusable due to problems with one of the satellites there (E3). The replacement satellite (AMC-14) failed to reach a usable orbit so DISH will have to deal with missing transponders for a while.

DISH is leasing 16 transponders at 72.7° ... one of their satellites is providing feeds from there today (testing). A new satellite is being launched to that location. This is a Canadian controlled satellite orbital slot.

DISH is also leasing transponders at 77° although I am unsure how many will be used for US purposes and how many will be used for Mexican purposes. This is a Mexican controlled slot that MUST provide service to Mexico as well as the US. Two DISH satellites are scheduled to be there to provide service.

All three locations are ku DBS ... high power small dish reception. I'm picking up 61.5° and 72.7° on an old Dish500 (just for the fun of it). There will be a new dish for picking up 61.5°, 72.7° and 77° on one dish that will take into account the odd spacing of 72.7° to 77°. But all DBS dishes. No ku FSS or ka.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

James Long said:


> DISH has license to 30 and legal use of all 32 transponders at 61.5° ... many of those transponders are used as spot beams and some transponders are unusable due to problems with one of the satellites there (E3). The replacement satellite (AMC-14) failed to reach a usable orbit so DISH will have to deal with missing transponders for a while.
> 
> DISH is leasing 16 transponders at 72.7° ... one of their satellites is providing feeds from there today (testing). A new satellite is being launched to that location. This is a Canadian controlled satellite orbital slot.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to augment the information provided. At the 61.5 W DBS slot, currently Dish can not provide programming from 4 TPs due to failures on the E-3 satellite and the design limitations of the E-12 satellite.

At the 72.7 DBS slot, Dish will only initially use 11 TPs from the E-6 satellite (in high power mode) because of reported failures on the E-6 satellite. This is based on FCC filings made by Dish. The Nimiq 5 satellite from TeleSat is the planned replacement for E-6 at 72.7 W and it is scheduled to be launched in the second half of 2009. At that time Dish will have use of the 16 even TPs from 72.7 W. I expect that E-6 will then be moved over to 61.5 W to augment the E-3 satellite.
If this were to occur, Dish could have 9 additional TPs to use for the Eastern Arc, 4 at 61.5 W and 5 at 72.7 W.

At 77 W, Dish has filed an application with the FCC to move the E-8 satellite there from 110 W once the E-11 satellite is operational which should be within the next two weeks. In the FCC filing Dish mentioned using 8 TPs for Mexico so we can assume the rest will be for use in the U.S. If Dish uses E-8 in high power mode that would only leave 8 TPs for the U.S., if in regular power, it would mean 24 TPs. The replacement satellite is the QuetzSat-1 satellite which is expected to be launched in the 2010/2011 time frame.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Thanks for the replies. That is a good bit of capacity, especially if it is all on MPEG-4. 

Here is a thought. For the Mexico slot, would it be possible for them to use all transponder licenses, using each for both Mexico and the U.S., via "uber" spotbeams? i.e. large, country specific beams - one designed for Mexico and one designed for CONUS U.S.? They might would have to leave southern Texas out of the equation for this to avoid beam overlap, but they still have 110/119 slots to cover any areas that would be left out of the eastern arc because of such an overlap issue.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is possible ... but I would consider it unlikely. They would have to put the north ConUS pattern far enough north that zero interference would be seen in Mexico without theoretical interference in Canada with close spaced Canadian DBS.

A future spot beam satellite that would provide 8 TPs of Mexico coverage and reuse those 8 TPs for central US spotbeams sounds logical (using the other 24 TPs for US ConUS / spotbeam coverage) but not using the same TPs for ConUS.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Will they have seperate feeds for SD locals and HD locals for each market, of will the HD local feed be down-rezzed for a SD set? If this new eastern arc service will only go to subs with the new MPEG-4 capable receivers, why need seperate SD and HD local feeds?


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

tkrandall said:


> Will they have seperate feeds for SD locals and HD locals for each market, of will the HD local feed be down-rezzed for a SD set? If this new eastern arc service will only go to subs with the new MPEG-4 capable receivers, why need seperate SD and HD local feeds?


Because, even if you have an MPEG4 reciever, you can use it on an SD tv


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> Will they have seperate feeds for SD locals and HD locals for each market, of will the HD local feed be down-rezzed for a SD set? If this new eastern arc service will only go to subs with the new MPEG-4 capable receivers, why need seperate SD and HD local feeds?


Lots of questions! 

One set of locals per market ... HD big four channels, SD other channels (as they are today). ViP receivers only so the receiver will do any downrezzing to SD needed. (Eventually DISH will need to offer all HD channels available in any market they offer any HD ... but that will be phased in and doesn't stop DISH from having all SD markets.)

The SD and HD locals are not separate on the arc. A channel will be uplinked either in HD or in SD, not both, on the same satellite. For example ... my unavailable HD locals (big 4 networks) are waiting for activation on one transponder while the rest of the channels are in SD on another transponder. Eastern Arc subscribers in my area will get both.


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

rocatman said:


> At the 72.7 DBS slot, Dish will only initially use 11 TPs from the E-6 satellite (in high power mode) because of reported failures on the E-6 satellite. This is based on FCC filings made by Dish. The Nimiq 5 satellite from TeleSat is the planned replacement for E-6 at 72.7 W and it is scheduled to be launched in the second half of 2009. At that time Dish will have use of the 16 even TPs from 72.7 W.


Is it confirmed that the Canadians will make use the other 16 TPs on Nimiq 5? For Ciel 2, they were also getting only 16 TPs, but it now seems no one in Canada wanted them, so Dish may get at least 15 there (at 129).


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

James Long said:


> Lots of questions!
> 
> One set of locals per market ... HD big four channels, SD other channels (as they are today). ViP receivers only so the receiver will do any downrezzing to SD needed. (Eventually DISH will need to offer all HD channels available in any market they offer any HD ... but that will be phased in and doesn't stop DISH from having all SD markets.)
> 
> The SD and HD locals are not separate on the arc. A channel will be uplinked either in HD or in SD, not both, on the same satellite. For example ... my unavailable HD locals (big 4 networks) are waiting for activation on one transponder while the rest of the channels are in SD on another transponder. Eastern Arc subscribers in my area will get both.


Thanks. I just can't help myself.

That makes sense to do it in the either/or (HD or SD) manner.


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## Christopher Gould (Jan 14, 2007)

tkrandall said:


> Thanks for the replies. That is a good bit of capacity, especially if it is all on MPEG-4.
> 
> Here is a thought. For the Mexico slot, would it be possible for them to use all transponder licenses, using each for both Mexico and the U.S., via "uber" spotbeams? i.e. large, country specific beams - one designed for Mexico and one designed for CONUS U.S.? They might would have to leave southern Texas out of the equation for this to avoid beam overlap, but they still have 110/119 slots to cover any areas that would be left out of the eastern arc because of such an overlap issue.


thats really not alot it's barely 1250-1500mhz. D* has close to 2750mhz slimline 5lnb


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

rocatman said:


> If Dish uses E-8 in high power mode that would only leave 8 TPs for the U.S., if in regular power, it would mean 24 TPs.


what is accomplished by operating in high power mode?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

more rainfade resistance, for one thing.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Christopher Gould said:


> thats really not alot it's barely 1250-1500mhz. D* has close to 2750mhz slimline 5lnb


What is that in bitrate? One can pass a lot more bits per MHz on a high powered DBS transponder than on ku FSS or ka.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

HDRoberts said:


> Is it confirmed that the Canadians will make use the other 16 TPs on Nimiq 5? For Ciel 2, they were also getting only 16 TPs, but it now seems no one in Canada wanted them, so Dish may get at least 15 there (at 129).


Actually at 72.7 W, dish is subleasing the 16 TPs from Bell ExpressVu the Canadian satellite provider who will actually be leasing the Nimiq 5 satellite from Telesat (which use to be owned by Bell ExpressVu). In addition, Dish also provides the satellite receivers to Bell ExpressVu.

Bell ExpressVu would seem to be the only Canadian company that would have some interest in using the DBS TPs on Ciel-2 since the other satellite program provider uses regular Ku band. Part of the deal with Bell ExpressVu for 72.7 W involved Dish providing them with receivers but there also may have been a provision related to Ciel-2 as well.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

The Canadian authorities may be the ones requiring that at least half of the frequencies of these satellites has to be reserved for Canadian providers.


BTW: Rumor is that Bell ExpressVu has been renamed Bell Sat.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

James Long said:


> What is that in bitrate? One can pass a lot more bits per MHz on a high powered DBS transponder than on ku FSS or ka.


Good point. Plus, how many tranponders did he count in that total mhz for DISH? I count up to 72, once fully working sats are in place in all 3 slots.

All of DirecTV core SD programming and local market channels at 101w is of course still MPEG-2, and I don't believe that will be changing any time soon, as too many legacy set top boxes/DVRs are not MPEG-4 capable. Also, part of the 2750 mhz, or approximately 1000 mhz I believe (Spaceway 1 and 2), is for spotbeams to cover HD locals for all of ConUS.

For the eastern arc, DISH should get some better efficiency via being all MPEG-4 and for not needing to broadcast both a HD local and seperate SD local. Also, they presumably only need to allocate enough bandwidth/spotbeams to cover the eastern U.S. local markets HD (and SD) channels. I would think they would be looking to serve western market local channels via spectrum from a western slot (anyone confirm?), so deduct ~500 mhz (half of what DTV allocated for HD locals) from the DTV spectrum advantage for that.

Bottom line is I think the net capacity is a lot closer than 1200 mhz vs 2700 mhz. And part of the DTV advantage probably goes to additional HD local markets or more stations in existing markets. For example, DTV carries more Atlanta HD local stations (WPCH, WATL, WUPN) than does Dish.


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## HellasSat (Oct 26, 2003)

JohnH said:


> The Canadian authorities may be the ones requiring that at least half of the frequencies of these satellites has to be reserved for Canadian providers.
> 
> BTW: Rumor is that Bell ExpressVu has been renamed Bell Sat.


Actually it has been renamed *Bell TV*. BCE (parent company of Bell TV) was recently purchased by a bunch of equity firms and they have started to make changes. It has been rumoured that the 'new guys in charge' make try to sell off Bell TV (ExpressVu) but that is just speculation at this point.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

HellasSat said:


> Actually it has been renamed *Bell TV*. BCE (parent company of Bell TV) was recently purchased by a bunch of equity firms and they have started to make changes. It has been rumoured that the 'new guys in charge' make try to sell off Bell TV (ExpressVu) but that is just speculation at this point.


I wonder if Dish/Charlie Ergen is interested and legally allowed to buy Bell TV?


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## kstuart (Apr 25, 2002)

rocatman said:


> I wonder if Dish/Charlie Ergen is interested and legally allowed to buy Bell TV?


He may be interested, since they already use the same receivers.

It would depend on whether the Canadian Government requires Canadian owners of Canadian media providers, and given every other action by the Canadian Government, I would bet that there is such a requirement.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Hm, I can think of some ways around that one...


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Does anyone have an idea when the Atlanta market might get added? HD locals come off 61.5 already.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

The moon was in the ecliptic path overnight so like a fool I was up at the right times to see if I have line of site to the eastern arc locations. I was pleased to see that I do have some viable locations on my roof. ( I have lots of trees and no LOS to 110 or 119). This means DISH is now a viable option for me should I ever have a reason to leave DirecTV or I lose LOS to their sats.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

so, has EA gone live today?


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

rocatman said:


> At the 72.7 DBS slot, Dish will only initially use 11 TPs from the E-6 satellite (in high power mode) because of reported failures on the E-6 satellite. This is based on FCC filings made by Dish. The Nimiq 5 satellite from TeleSat is the planned replacement for E-6 at 72.7 W and it is scheduled to be launched in the second half of 2009. At that time Dish will have use of the 16 even TPs from 72.7 W. I expect that E-6 will then be moved over to 61.5 W to augment the E-3 satellite.
> If this were to occur, Dish could have 9 additional TPs to use for the Eastern Arc, 4 at 61.5 W and 5 at 72.7 W.


So, with only 11 transponders at 72.7, use of MPEG-4 will enable them to provide SD core, SD premium, SD regional sports, SD PPV, and Music all from 72.7? (This info according to thier Eastern Arc installers info flyer) DirecTV requires what I estimate to be 26 transponders for ~ the same MPEG-2using from their 101 slot, and I would assume DISH allocated about the same number between 110 and 119.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> So, with only 11 transponders at 72.7, use of MPEG-4 will enable them to provide SD core, SD premium, SD regional sports, SD PPV, and Music all from 72.7? (This info according to thier Eastern Arc installers info flyer) DirecTV requires what I estimate to be 26 transponders for ~ the same MPEG-2using from their 101 slot, and I would assume DISH allocated about the same number between 110 and 119.


DISH has 50 transponders at 110° and 119° with 15 divided into spotbeams leaving 35 for ConUS uses including SD core, PPV, premium, music, Latino and some core HD channels. DISH has more ConUS SD channels in their system (191 + RSNs vs 192 including RSNs for DirecTV the last time I counted). DISH also has a lot more audio channels (115 vs 64?) so it isn't likely they would be able to fit all of DISH's channels on the same number of transponders DirecTV uses ... DISH has more content.

The 35 ConUS transponders do give DISH room to lease one transponder out to NPS/All American Direct and put some ConUS HD up on 110°.

Most of the ConUS HD, ConUS SD and all the music from 119° and 110° are now on 72.7° ... what isn't there is the Latino channels (other than those included in AT packages) and a couple dozen of PPV and other channels few would notice missing. Once DISH gets all 16 transponders running I expect everything will appear. 34 transponders crunched down to 16?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I think I understand this now. So should we start a "Western Arc" speculation thread on how best to organize my half of the country?


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

phrelin said:


> So should we start a "Western Arc" speculation thread on how best to organize my half of the country?


The Western Arc is already in place. It is the 129, 119, and 110 slots. Because there are MILLIONS of MPEG-2 SD receivers it will be years before it is fully converted to MPEG-4 like the Eastern Arc. It will be used for most customers (no matter where they are) for a long time.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Bill R said:


> The Western Arc is already in place. It is the 129, 119, and 110 slots. Because there are MILLIONS of MPEG-2 SD receivers it will be years before it is fully converted to MPEG-4 like the Eastern Arc. It will be used for most customers (no matter where they are) for a long time.


Yes, but maybe the new 110 and the soon-to-be new 129 could allow for a _reorganization_ of the Western Arc. And my suggestion to speculate about it was just supposed to be humorous, at this point anyway.


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## spear61 (Sep 19, 2004)

Bill R said:


> The Western Arc is already in place. It is the 129, 119, and 110 slots. Because there are MILLIONS of MPEG-2 SD receivers it will be years before it is fully converted to MPEG-4 like the Eastern Arc. It will be used for most customers (no matter where they are) for a long time.


3-5 years to be specific if you want to believe what Charlie said in his last earning report


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## kstuart (Apr 25, 2002)

phrelin said:


> Yes, but maybe the new 110 and the soon-to-be new 129 could allow for a _reorganization_ of the Western Arc. And my suggestion to speculate about it was just supposed to be humorous, at this point anyway.


Aside from the latter, there is not going to be a reorganization, because the whole point is to service millions of people with *legacy* equipment.

There are still people with 301s (and older) connected to a Dish 300 pointed to 119.

Even more have no more than a Dish 500 pointed to 110-119, because they don't have HD TV.

Ciel2 will allows Dish to have a stable source at 129 for HD, as well as adding many spot beams at 129 for all the HD Locals for the western half of the US.


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## levibluewa (Aug 13, 2005)

Will the new Eastern Ark subs lose access to AAD's Atlanta & SF feeds if the new setup doesn't include the 119?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

kstuart said:


> Aside from the latter, there is not going to be a reorganization, because the whole point is to service millions of people with *legacy* equipment.
> 
> There are still people with 301s (and older) connected to a Dish 300 pointed to 119.
> 
> ...


It's hard for me to believe they won't reorganize the HD feeds into MPEG4-only and start swapping out DVR's. I guess the time pressure to do that would depend on whether the courts will let them keep my 508's recording.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

levibluewa said:


> Will the new Eastern Ark subs lose access to AAD's Atlanta & SF feeds if the new setup doesn't include the 119?


The feeds have not shown up on an EA satellite. I do not expect them to show up, either. The EA is being launched in Markets with locals already offered by DiSH Network.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

phrelin said:


> It's hard for me to believe they won't reorganize the HD feeds into MPEG4-only and start swapping out DVR's. I guess the time pressure to do that would depend on whether the courts will let them keep my 508's recording.


Dish is doing that ... MPEG2 HD is done with the final channels being shut off very very soon. It is the SD MPEG2 receivers that need replacing next (likely with HD MPEG4 receivers ... It does not appear any new SD receiver models are being developed).



JohnH said:


> The feeds have not shown up on an EA satellite. I do not expect them to show up, either. The EA is being launched in Markets with locals already offered by DiSH Network.


To fit the pattern accepted by the courts, NPS/AAD would have to lease a full transponder at one of the EA locations and independently control it. Possible but unlikely. DISH likes to be able to have NPS offer the service but the transponder space has better use and - as you note - these markets have their own HD/SD locals.

NPS would help a few viewers in a few locations within those markets ... probably not enough to make it viable for them to lease another transponder. The good news would be that IF NPS did offer distants they would most likely be HD (as one transponder can carry 8 HD MPEG4 feeds). But it would need to be a viable offering.


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## DishSatUser (Aug 28, 2006)

James Long said:


> Dish is doing that ... MPEG2 HD is done with the final channels being shut off very very soon. It is the SD MPEG2 receivers that need replacing next (likely with HD MPEG4 receivers ... It does not appear any new SD receiver models are being developed).


Makes sense about not developing any further SD receivers. Economies of scale make it likely to be less expensive to just develop new HD related and continue to ensure that it has coax, composite and s-video outputs as well as the component and HDMI for HD users.

This way when they want to subscribe to HD content, it's just an activation of those channels rather than another tech visit (with the exception of Dishes that may need to be added or upgraded). Also allows DISH to be flexible if some channels drop their SD format completely and only offer the HD. These could then be offered to DISH customers and have SDTV users recevie a downconverted stream via their HD receiver, not the need to duplicate the content on another transponder/etc...


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> Dish is doing that ... MPEG2 HD is done with the final channels being shut off very very soon. It is the SD MPEG2 receivers that need replacing next (likely with HD MPEG4 receivers ... It does not appear any new SD receiver models are being developed).


It's really only a matter of time before HD becomes synonymous with TV and it would be as strange for someone to be watching SD as it was in 1970 if someone was watching B/W.


> To fit the pattern accepted by the courts, NPS/AAD would have to lease a full transponder at one of the EA locations and independently control it. Possible but unlikely. DISH likes to be able to have NPS offer the service but the transponder space has better use and - as you note - these markets have their own HD/SD locals.
> 
> NPS would help a few viewers in a few locations within those markets ... probably not enough to make it viable for them to lease another transponder. The good news would be that IF NPS did offer distants they would most likely be HD (as one transponder can carry 8 HD MPEG4 feeds). But it would need to be a viable offering.


Because HD will become synonymous with TV, NPS will have to do something. But that may be ceasing to offer distants. Right now I can't see how they could handle SFO HD's. There's too much inconsistency in those signals right now.


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## kstuart (Apr 25, 2002)

phrelin said:


> It's really only a matter of time before HD becomes synonymous with TV and it would be as strange for someone to be watching SD as it was in 1970 if someone was watching B/W.


My mother, who has had a color TV since 1965, still has one B/W TV that she uses...



> Because HD will become synonymous with TV, NPS will have to do something. But that may be ceasing to offer distants. Right now I can't see how they could handle SFO HD's. There's too much inconsistency in those signals right now.




San Francisco International Airport HD's ??

Sugar-Free Organic HD's ??


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

kstuart said:


> My mother, who has had a color TV since 1965, still has one B/W TV that she uses...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK. Too many acronyms. I really don't know any other way of describing by "short-mouth" the stations serving the "*D*esignated *M*arket *A*rea" of 7 million people that is titled by Nielsen as *S*an *F*rancisco/*O*akland/San Jose that might be as easily recognized because SFO is the acronym for San Francisco International Airport.

And AllAmericanDirect provides eligible Dish Network customers with the *S*an *F*rancisco/*O*akland/San Jose *D*esignated *M*arket *A*rea stations as its Pacific Time Zone stations.

Until a couple of months ago, for many reasons I used to get those and Atlanta feeds from AllAmericanDirect as well as the SFO stations from Dish Network. Now I don't because AllAmericanDirect signals are awful and I can't image how they would handle high definition.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

I'm trying to find a link to a 3-4 page Dish summary sheet I saw back in August on the eastern arc that describes the launch of the product and shows how the eastern and western arc programming is assigned to the sats. Canyone have a link?


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

tkrandall said:


> I'm trying to find a link to a 3-4 page Dish summary sheet I saw back in August on the eastern arc that describes the launch of the product and shows how the eastern and western arc programming is assigned to the sats. Canyone have a link?


I believe what you are looking for is on the "other" site.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

I know about that thread but did not find the spcific document I was looking for. It is a pdf that shows the two arcs and and mentions what type of programming will come off of each sat location (HD nationals, HD locals, etc)..


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

tkrandall said:


> I know about that thread but did not find the spcific document I was looking for. It is a pdf that shows the two arcs and and mentions what type of programming will come off of each sat location (HD nationals, HD locals, etc)..


Check your PMs.  Out of respect for the fine folks at this site and the other, I didn't want to post a link to their friendly competitor, nor did I want to post an "exclusive" from the other.


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## Mr. Vega (Jan 30, 2008)

so as a current dish subscriber on the western arc with mpeg4 equip. could i in theory get a 1000.4 dish and receive the eastern arc, or is it account driven?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Mr. Vega said:


> so as a current dish subscriber on the western arc with mpeg4 equip. could i in theory get a 1000.4 dish and receive the eastern arc, or is it account driven?


If you have the new Smartcard(s) the answers are yes and it does not appear to be.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

As an EA user, I can confirm it is not account driven. But you do need a ViP series receiver and the new smartcard.


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

Jason Nipp said:


> As an EA user, I can confirm it is not account driven. But you do need a ViP series receiver and the new smartcard.


Small correction: more than *A* VIP receiver but *ALL* VIP (MPEG4) receivers.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

HDRoberts said:


> Small correction: more than *A* VIP receiver but *ALL* VIP (MPEG4) receivers.


Good lord.... That's not a correction Mr. Roberts.... that's a technical nit pick. 

But since your correcting me, I'll correct you and state 61.5 can be received by any receiver ViP series or not (MPEG4 or MPEG2). At least at the moment.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Another website is reporting that the Nimiq 5 satellite launch on a Proton has been moved up from early 2010 to the second half of 2009. Nimiq 5 will replace the E-6 satellite at 72.7 W. The successful launch of Nimiq 5 will provide Dish with more TPs at 72.7 W and will also free up the E-6 satellite for use elsewhere such as 61.5 W to replace/augment the E-3 satellite. Here is the website address:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=1133.780


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