# The Dukes Of Hazzard controversy



## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Maybe this is too controversial to discuss. If so, I will gladly back off.

As you may know, TVLand pulled TDOH because the General Lee has the stars and bars on its roof, and lately there is a general consensus among many that this is an insulting emblem.

I am not sure what to think. If I was displaying an emblem that upset people, I would be happy to not do that anymore just as common courtesy, even if I did not understand their offense at it. The end; move on. The emblem is pretty prominent, but they could discretely blur it out or cut around it of blow up the frame to exclude it if they really thought TDOH was worth spending the money on.

What brings controversy of its own is the uproar that removing TDOH might be causing, a claim that TVLand might be over-reacting to the PC police. There is some validity to that, but maybe not as much as some might think.

Again, I do not know what to think. I do think TVLand is trying to do the right thing, even if it might not be right for everyone. There is also the thought that no one is placing a gun at anyone's head and making them watch TDOH. At 17 no one needed to do that to me (Daisy Duke even actually became the name for the pants she was wearing), but they might have to today, simply because I am not 17. And neither is Daisy Duke.

So maybe everyone should just cool off and let TVLand do what they think is right, especially since it really is no one else's business what they do.

I see all sides, but the thing I find the most offensive is the reaction to what TVLand did. And there are a whole ----pot full of things that I find even more offensive about most of reality TV and celebrities without any resume supporting their celebrity. Maybe I am the one who should consider over-reacting, about that. What I found offensive was CBS (?) thinking they could replace those actors with other actors, and still make us watch, back in the day. It's OK to not agree with something or not like someone else's decision. But whining about it? Bad form.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

There was also the removal of 7th Heaven and The Cosby Show recently because of controversy.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

There's no controversy, TVLand is stupid as heck. They got dropped off my channel guide years ago with that channel that used to show weather.

But when did they start running old shows again? I thought it was all 'original' shows featuring has-beens who can't find work anywhere else.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Everyone is over reacting....


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

sigma1914 said:


> There was also the removal of 7th Heaven and The Cosby Show recently because of controversy.


I pretty much agreed with those. And what TVLand did is much the same thing, which is pull back in the face of unexpected (or even predicted) reaction simply because of what RunnerFL just said, which I also agree with.

I think it is smart to do things that help calm everybody down, even if those people are over-reacting, and even if what you do to compensate for their over-reaction can also be seen as over-reacting. Not everything will be fair, but that seems like a sensible way to proceed, even if there are blurred lines involved.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

I'd rather they pull the Ducks than the Dukes.


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## richall01 (Sep 30, 2007)

As you may know, TVLand pulled TDOH because the General Lee has the stars and bars on its roof, and lately there is a general consensus among many that this is an insulting emblem.

Okay, so no one can fly the "rainbow flag" or the "ISIS" flag ???


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

^^^ Now, see, that's the kind of goofey stuff that will get the thread locked.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Snopes Discusses: The Truth about Confederate History
http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-history/

The above is a good article on the history of the CSA flag and its post Civil War usage. (The flag most are complaining about now is the Confederate battle flag, which was part of the flag of the CSA but was never the official flag of the CSA.)

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride symbol, not racist
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/ (Caution: Video may autoplay)
The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.
Obviously a racial issue as the opinion on the issue is easily divided by race.

A majority favors removing the Confederate flag from government property that isn't part of a museum: 55% support that while 43% are opposed. And half support private companies choosing not to sell or manufacture items featuring the Confederate flag: 50% are in favor, 47% opposed.
So despite a majority of people seeing the flag as "southern pride" a majority also supports the removal of said flag from government property and accepts businesses refusing to sell said flag.

(And yes, the question that could get this thread closed would be if a business could refuse to manufacture or sell any other flag without public outcry and claims of bias.)

Walmart, Amazon, Sears and eBay have also stated that they will not sell the "Confederate battle flag" or items featuring the emblem. My favorite comment was from Walmart:
"We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer. We have taken steps to remove all items promoting the confederate flag from our assortment -- whether in our stores or on our web site," said Walmart spokesman Brian Nick. "We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions when it comes to the merchandise we sell. Still, at times, items make their way into our assortment improperly -- this is one of those instances."
Based on Walmart's comments it sounds like the confederate flag somehow "slipped through the process" ... as if they are admitting that they should have never sold it and stocking such items was an oversight. 

Personally: I do not mind it's use on the General Lee - a show filmed at a completely different time in our nation's history. Unfortunately any decision on airing or not airing the show becomes part of the controversy. By pulling the show they are following the opinion of the slight minority who leave the decision up to individual businesses.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

The problem with the snopes.com article is it soft-sells the origination of the flag, who designed it, and why. David Mikkelson, co-founder of Snopes and the article's author implied there was a point when the battle flag could conceivably had a positive heritage. And such could be reclaimed. I present The Tattooed Professor's historical review: http://www.thetattooedprof.com/archives/407. He digs deeper into the whole, most of which we can't discuss here.

As to TVland, their pulling of _The Dukes of Hazzard_ because, well, they could. It's their network. No one is banning it, forcing them, etc.

When I watched the show during it's initial run, I sorta knew the flag was forged out of... stuff we can't talk about... but I didn't really think about it. Fun show, entertaining goofiness. I didn't think about it much at all--even though I had a relatively decent education.

A few years later, I realized what that flag meant as I realized it was on various state flags. And that it was wrong--but still didn't connect _The Dukes of Hazzard_ dot. By then the show was gone, so I didn't worry about it. As years have gone by, I've come to learn more and more about the specifics of the flag being a battle flag, the start of the war, and who owned who, when, and where. This past month has been an intense history lesson. I prefer to be accurate with my posts here and facebook. So I double check details. I've learned many; The Tattooed Professor has many great links and sources, but I digress.

I've grown, I know about the flag. My overall feeling, at least as pertains to the topic and without violating the DBSTalk rules, is that when racism is greatly reduced, especially in the south, more people will quickly stop cherishing the battle flag and it will fall away as it sort of did immediately after the civil war. Gen. Robert E. Lee's suggestion, "Fold it up and put it away," will finally be followed.

At that point I expect we'll be wise enough to realize the dukes really were good old boys, who really didn't mean any harm cuz they were ignorant of the true meanings of the flag. The show will be able to run again.

How long before that can happen? I haven't a clue. It's already been 150 years. Good heavens I hope it isn't another 150 years, mostly because it has been resurrected a couple times.

Is TVLand over-reacting? Not my call as I don't have their numbers. They might have had advertisers threaten to pull ads. They might have seen other handwriting on the wall. That's their call. 

Peace,
Tom


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ePFollQQE


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I believe the same words that were spoken about the Confederate flag apply to the ISIS flag:
Walmart spokesman Brian Nick. "We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions when it comes to the merchandise we sell. Still, at times, items make their way into our assortment improperly -- this is one of those instances."
ISIS cakes (and flags) are not a stock item ... the cake was a custom order completed at the request of the offended customer. The customer produced the image of the ISIS flag and provided it to the store for duplication.

Here is one of the apologies Walmart has put forth for the ISIS cake:
"It's unfortunate one customer thought to take advantage of an associate who did not know the flag and its meaning," Walmart spokesperson John Forrest Ales told USA Today. "This cake should not have been made, and we apologize for the mistake."

http://www.people.com/article/walmart-apologizes-isis-cake-confederate-flag-cake


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

"Appalachian Americans" from the 2005 movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meEN8tfT7b4

BTW: Golfer Bubba Watson, who owns a "General Lee" and was refused permission by NASCAR to be able to drive it around the track at a race in Arizona a few years ago due to the battle flag on the roof has reported via social media that he will be painting over the flag.

BTW2: The AutoTrader commercials featuring Bo and Luke and the General Lee did not show the roof of the General Lee.

More related news:
“Warner Bros. Consumer Products has one licensee producing die-cast replicas and vehicle model kits featuring the General Lee with the confederate flag on its roof — as it was seen in the TV series,” a spokesman for the company said in a June 24 email. “We have elected to cease the licensing of these product categories.”


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Sometimes this stuff is just baffling.

It took us until WWII to understand just how important "unconditional surrender" is. So confusion about the losers of wars that ended prior to that maintaining their "pride" is understandable, but weird.

What's confusing is this trivia - the original flag of the Confederate States of America:










According to this site:



> The pattern and colors of this flag did not distinguish it sharply fom the Stars and Stripes of the Union. Consequently, considerable confusion was caused on the battlefield.


Then they tell us:



> The best-known Confederate flag, however, was the Battle Flag, the familiar "Southern Cross". It was carried by Confederate troops in the field which were the vast majority of forces under the confederacy.
> 
> The Stars represented the 11 states actually in the Confederacy plus Kentucky and Missouri.


So the one official national Confederate States flag resembled what was known as the United States flag. The Battle Flag reflected wrong information and couldn't even inspire two of the states to secede.

The racism issue notwithstanding, I don't understand the reasoning underlying some needing that flag.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

I think TDOH was a pretty innocent show. That they celebrated rotgut moonshine and outrunning "govmit revenooers" (at least as an original premise) was probably the most offensive thing about it, although if you take _THAT_ poll divided by gender, you probably would get a split about the sexualizaion of a young country girl as one of the issues frowned upon. Feminism had just not really caught on at CBS back then. Daisy Duke was an object, something that everyone knew wasn't quite right even then.

But in 1982 it was probably the most popular show on television (what could compete with it? _Cannon_? _Barnaby_ _Jones_?). It was a lot of light fun, and actually pretty well done.

I grew up in the north. I didn't see a face that wasn't white until I was 16. I knew about the dogs and the water cannons but had no idea who Martin Luther King was even on the day he was murdered. I certainly did not know that the decal on the General Lee was offensive to anyone. That awareness and that culture was so far away from where I lived that it might as well have been on the moon. I feel that anyone connected with the show probably didn't know that either, and were just trying to make a fun show that celebrated southern living, or at least a caricature of that.

Times change, I guess. You won't be seeing old eps of _Amos and Andy_ on Netflix any time soon. But TDOH is a snapshot in time. It is what it is, and it is not meant to be an insult to anyone in any way. Once things die down and it comes back somewhere, I won't have a problem with it. Those who do might be well advised to just not watch it.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

All of this mess is way overblown. People are way way too sensitive these days.
I see many offensive , to me, flags that represent very bad people and yet they still are shown in movies, TV, stores, tattoos, etc.
Are we losing our freedom of speech and expression ? I fear the answer to that is absolutely.
What happened to us being tolerant of others and what they believe ?

All this is coming about because that murderer wanted to start a race war. Within a couple of days of the uproar of the confederate flag a large black church was burned. This kind of stuff is giving that murderer just what he wanted.
It is truly a shame.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

> Just'a good ol' boys
> Never meanin' no harm.
> Beats all you never saw
> Been in trouble with the law
> ...


And don't messin' with Cousin Daisey now .... you'll get Enos all flustered.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

SayWhat? said:


> And don't messin' with Cousin Daisey now .... you'll get Enos all flustered.


Way back when I watched the show Daisy was the reason and controversy to watch the show. With those shorts of hers and good looks of course.
Of course I did like all those car stunts they did also.
I saw a video about how they filmed those car stunts and if I remember correctly there was one episode that they tore up 17 of those cars to get it all done.


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## SamC (Jan 20, 2003)

- The Dukes of Hazzard was a silly TV show from long ago. If you did not get to see it the first 10000 times it was rerun, then you are out of luck now.

- Same can be said about every show on TV Land, and on the other 50 to 60 "general rerun" channels, which add little to your TV day.

- The following section of the Constitution provides that you get to live a life free of offense: 

- Like all such hypocrites (Wal-Mart, Amazon, etc) we must now assume the things they now DO sell and show are 100% approved by them and represent their views.

Viacom owns Showtime, Logo, and CBS.

Amazon sell communist flags, Arab spring flags, porno, books by crazy people, so-called "Nazi" (properly National SOCIALIST, because remember kids, socialism kills, every time its tried) material, etc.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

jimmie57 said:


> All of this mess is way overblown. People are way way too sensitive these days.
> I see many offensive , to me, flags that represent very bad people and yet they still are shown in movies, TV, stores, tattoos, etc.
> Are we losing our freedom of speech and expression ? I fear the answer to that is absolutely.
> What happened to us being tolerant of others and what they believe ?
> ...


I strongly agree. A segment of American society needs to mature and put the past behind them. My Irish ancestors experienced Hibernophobia but we don't go around whining about it.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

If I owned a network, I would be grabbing this show up and running the entire series on a loop.

And selling commercials like crazy.
Imagine the exposure.

Who doesn't like money?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MysteryMan said:


> I strongly agree. A segment of American society needs to mature and put the past behind them. My Irish ancestors experienced Hibernophobia but we don't go around whining about it.


When they stopped owning, abusing, and murdering your ancestors, they _could_ get over it. There are "segments of American society" where they are still discriminated against. That is not something to just get over. Other segments of society have to stop being racist murders. And the already non-racist segments have to help educate the racists.

Peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

armophob said:


> If I owned a network, I would be grabbing this show up and running the entire series on a loop.
> 
> And selling commercials like crazy.
> Imagine the exposure.
> ...


There is a reason very few businesses are touching a flag of hatred and treason. You wouldn't make any money.

Peace,
Tom


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Tom Robertson said:


> There is a reason very few businesses are touching a flag of hatred and treason. You wouldn't make any money.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


The confederate flag was a rebellion flag, not treason the same as the American flag was when we fought the British.
The south did not want the north telling us what to do the same as the Americans did not want the British telling us what to do and taxing us.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Tom Robertson said:


> There is a reason very few businesses are touching a flag of hatred and treason. You wouldn't make any money.


Walmart and the other stores happily made money off of the sale of material with that flag or elements of that flag until (shock, horror) they suddenly discovered that the image was offensive. It doesn't have to be their #1 product line to make money.

The same for TVLand ... they fill their day with programs they expect to make money. Either by attracting viewers for their advertisers or playing infomercials who pay for airtime or per referral. Mostly with shows chosen to attract viewers.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jimmie57 said:


> The confederate flag was a rebellion flag, not treason the same as the American flag was when we fought the British.
> The south did not want the north telling us what to do the same as the Americans did not want the British telling us what to do and taxing us.


From the British point of view, the American Flag is a flag of treason. But we won that one too. Had the British won, there would be no sign of the "Old Glory" anywhere.

The south, from their very articles of secession, their constitution, and their proclamations, demanded the "right" (sic) to own, to abuse, and to murder people. Slavery was the only cause. It was The Cornerstone. They actually demanded the northern states follow southern states rules (not rights) regarding slaves ownership.

Fortunately, more and more people are realizing that racism, slavery, and hatred are wrong. Thus, the symbols of hatred are coming down.

Along the way, at least for a short time, ancillary uses of those symbols, such as on the roof of a car are caught up in the action. Had _The Dukes of Hazzard_ been a documentary it wouldn't be pulled because of the flag. As a fluff piece that prominently displays a symbol of hatred--bye-bye for now. When the hatred and racism are gone, perhaps the show can return.

Peace,
Tom


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Tom Robertson said:


> When they stopped owning, abusing, and murdering your ancestors, they _could_ get over it. There are "segments of American society" where they are still discriminated against. That is not something to just get over. Other segments of society have to stop being racist murders. And the already non-racist segments have to help educate the racists.
> 
> Peace,
> Tom


In a perfect world there would be no racists, bigots, or extremists. Unfortunately the world we live in isn't perfect. Look around, there are racists, bigots, and extremists everywhere, not just here in America. The Confederate flag is part of our American history. And like it or not there is a dark side of our history. I found it offensive when Tommie Smith and John Carlos dishonored our flag during the playing of our National Anthem at the 1968 Olympics with a Black Power salute instead of properly placing their right hand over their heart. I didn't need educating to deal with it nor did I go around whining about it for decades.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

There's nothing prideful or good about the flag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6SOdFrvWpI


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jimmie57 said:


> The confederate flag was a rebellion flag, not treason the same as the American flag was when we fought the British.
> The south did not want the north telling us what to do the same as the Americans did not want the British telling us what to do and taxing us.


Wait a minute ... your second sentence says the actions were "the same as" yet your first sentence uses different words? If you believe the motivation was the same in 1776 as in 1861 then the flags would have the same meanings (rebellion and treason).

The difference being that the US beat the British - we won our independence and with victory comes the right to call our former oppressors tyrants. The south did not win their battle to secede from the United States. Their battle flag was appropriately put away until a hundred years later when a different generation resurrected it. It a game of capture the flag the losers don't get to keep their flag.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MysteryMan said:


> In a perfect world there would be no racists, bigots, or extremists. Unfortunately the world we live in isn't perfect. Look around, there are racists, bigots, and extremists everywhere, not just here in America.


Is this an excuse or euphemism for "I'm not the one being oppressed (anymore) so it's ok?" Or perhaps the less provocative, "since there always will be racists, I don't have to care about it." I'd like to think we are better than these excuses and will radically reduce the hatred and racism someday.



MysteryMan said:


> The Confederate flag is part of our American history. And like it or not there is a dark side of our history.


Is there an euphemism here? So what if it is a part of our history? Do we prominently display and embrace symbols of the dark side of our history? Or do we put them in a museum and history books where they belong?



MysteryMan said:


> I found it offensive when Tommie Smith and John Carlos dishonored our flag during the playing of our National Anthem at the 1968 Olympics with a Black Power salute instead of properly placing their right hand over their heart.


Using a scale of 1 to 10, how did that offense compare to the offense of the Irish being slaves? Are they even on the same scale?



MysteryMan said:


> I didn't need educating to deal with it nor did I go around whining about it for decades.


Yet here you are, seemingly whining about it. Instead of understanding the difference between your race being shot at and your race not honoring the flag in the conventional fashion. If the Irish were still being shot, abused, and discriminated against, I suspect you'd feel rather differently.

Peace,
Tom


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

sigma1914 said:


> There's nothing prideful or good about the flag.


That was a pretty good video.
I am almost 72 and I was born and raised in Savannah, Ga during those years. If you take the instances where current version of the flag was raised you will hear that it was raised in protest ( Rebel ).
I certainly never thought that one person should own another.

I changed my AVI on Twitter and Facebook to that flag in protest of Nascar asking the fans to not bring their flags to the tracks.

I am going to quit now because me thinks that things might get heated if we continue this line of posting and we don't need that.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

James Long said:


> Wait a minute ... your second sentence says the actions were "the same as" yet your first sentence uses different words? If you believe the motivation was the same in 1776 as in 1861 then the flags would have the same meanings (rebellion and treason).
> 
> The difference being that the US beat the British - we won our independence and with victory comes the right to call our former oppressors tyrants. The south did not win their battle to secede from the United States. Their battle flag was appropriately put away until a hundred years later when a different generation resurrected it. It a game of capture the flag the losers don't get to keep their flag.


Treason is when you sell out your country like a thief in the night.
This was open Rebellion in each case and to me those are 2 totally different things.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I believe that when The Dukes of Hazzard was created they saw the battle flag as a "good ole boy" symbol of the south and did not think much more of it. The Dukes drove a car honoring General Robert E. Lee ... and although history tells us that General Lee would not be honored by that flag:
Lee did not want such divisive symbols following him to the grave. At his funeral in 1870, flags were notably absent from the procession. Former Confederate soldiers marching did not don their old military uniforms, and neither did the body they buried. "His Confederate uniform would have been 'treason' perhaps!" Lee's daughter wrote.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/15/even-robert-e-lee-wanted-the-confederate-flag-gone.html
For a comedy/action show I would not expect them to be historically accurate. Accuracy would start with the car being totaled in the opening credits. People in non-slave states generally accepted the "pride of the south" meaning for the flag. Then again, anyone could also say the N word on TV without being censored by the channel. Sensitivities change. I do not believe the show was intentionally promoting racism.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jimmie57 said:


> Treason is when you sell out your country like a thief in the night.
> This was open Rebellion in each case and to me those are 2 totally different things.


I think I see the difference you are working from. Both the US and the confederate south declared themselves as independent before starting actions that would otherwise be treasonous. Whereas if they started fighting first, that would be treason? Am I getting the overall gist?

Interesting concept, one that I'll ponder and research. Thanks for an interesting discussion point.

Sincerely and peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jimmie57 said:


> I am going to quit now because me thinks that things might get heated if we continue this line of posting and we don't need that.


Well said and good form. I've contemplated similarly and I applaud you for taking a high road lead.

Peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

James Long said:


> I believe that when The Dukes of Hazzard was created they saw the battle flag as a "good ole boy" symbol of the south and did not think much more of it. The Duke's drove a car honoring General Robert E. Lee ... and although history tells us that General Lee would not be honored by that flag:
> Lee did not want such divisive symbols following him to the grave. At his funeral in 1870, flags were notably absent from the procession. Former Confederate soldiers marching did not don their old military uniforms, and neither did the body they buried. "His Confederate uniform would have been 'treason' perhaps!" Lee's daughter wrote.
> 
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/15/even-robert-e-lee-wanted-the-confederate-flag-gone.html
> ...


Well said.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jimmie57 said:


> The confederate flag was a rebellion flag, not treason the same as the American flag was when we fought the British.
> The south did not want the north telling us what to do the same as the Americans did not want the British telling us what to do and taxing us.





jimmie57 said:


> Treason is when you sell out your country like a thief in the night.
> This was open Rebellion in each case and to me those are 2 totally different things.


OK ... it sounded like you were calling the American flag a flag of treason.
The south still lost, and the leaders that lost put aside their battle flag.

We are now one nation, indivisible. States can't just secede if they don't like the decisions of the federal government. We need less rebellion and more unity. And some forgiveness for the people who made a TV show decades ago that is not historically accurate.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

James Long said:


> It a game of capture the flag the losers don't get to keep their flag.


Tell that to the British who have lost or been badly beaten many times, yet still fly the Union Jack. "The Sun Never Sets On The British Empire" isn't quite as true now as it once was.


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## SayWhat? (Jun 7, 2009)

Pretty sure the French, Spanish and Italians are still flying theirs too.


And the Germans (a different one) and the Japanese and a whole host of others.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Tom Robertson said:


> > Treason is when you sell out your country like a thief in the night.
> > This was open Rebellion in each case and to me those are 2 totally different things.
> 
> 
> ...


If one considers the secession both countries made to their parent/host country as betrayal, which is one definition of treason, then perhaps both the US leaving England and the confederacy leaving the US might be treasonous acts.

Though there still seems to be an even less honorable version of treason, whereby someone "sells out your country like a thief in the night" as you say. When someone still wearing the home country's uniform acts against the country.

Peace,
Tom


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SayWhat? said:


> Tell that to the British who have lost or been badly beaten many times, yet still fly the Union Jack. "The Sun Never Sets On The British Empire" isn't quite as true now as it once was.


They (and the other countries you mentioned) remain a country. The Confederate States of America ceased to exist at the end of the war. Countries that modify their flags normally have done so to remove symbols of oppression.

Countries that seceded from the British Empire (such as the United States) have created their own flags. Some honor their British heritage by including the union jack in their flag ... others have gone with different designs. The United Kingdom no longer seeks to oppress other nations and their flag is not as divisive as certain flags of nations that no longer exist.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

SayWhat? said:


> Tell that to the British who have lost or been badly beaten many times, yet still fly the Union Jack. "The Sun Never Sets On The British Empire" isn't quite as true now as it once was.


The point being that Union Jack is not flying over the territories in which they lost. They fly the home flag on the land they've managed to keep.

Of the other countries you mention, France and Spain regained their freedom, hence get to keep their flag, though whilst they were occupied they did not get to keep them. Germany changed theirs. As did Italy. Japan could have been assimilated into the US but we chose not to and thus were allowed to keep their flag.

The south lost, returned into the US, reconstructed by the North (and now seem to be unhappy with the generosity of the North, having been beaten in war.) Since they aren't a separate nation, why should they get to keep their flag, which wasn't even fully a flag of the confederacy?

Their heritage, as represented by the battle flag, is nothing worth celebrating, honoring, nor displaying. Slavery is not something to honor.

Peace,
Tom


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## makaiguy (Sep 24, 2007)

1) In today's world, it's no big deal to pixillate things out of tv programs. Heck, I was watching one of those house-flipping programs yesterday and when they first visited the house they blurred out the toilet bowl, for heaven's sake. If they wanted, this dastardly symbol could be effectvely removed from the top of the car.

2) This whole thread is getting far too political for my taste.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

makaiguy said:


> 1) In today's world, it's no big deal to pixillate things out of tv programs. Heck, I was watching one of those house-flipping programs yesterday and when they first visited the house they blurred out the toilet bowl, for heaven's sake. If they wanted, this dastardly symbol could be effectvely removed from the top of the car.


Yeah, that is one approach that might used at some point.



makaiguy said:


> 2) This whole thread is getting far too political for my taste.


This thread is a delicate balance of topics, some of which are not permitted, some of which are. The politics are part and parcel of the whole story, yet we've (more or less) been able to minimize that aspect.

Peace,
Tom


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

makaiguy said:


> 1) In today's world, it's no big deal to pixillate things out of tv programs. Heck, I was watching one of those house-flipping programs yesterday and when they first visited the house they blurred out the toilet bowl, for heaven's sake. If they wanted, this dastardly symbol could be effectvely removed from the top of the car.
> 
> 2) This whole thread is getting far too political for my taste.


Censorship......really?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MysteryMan said:


> Censorship......really?


By which government agency?


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Tom Robertson said:


> By which government agency?


Censorship-The practice of examining books, movies, ect. and "suppressing" unacceptable parts. Do we really want to revert to the days of "The Motion Picture Production Code" 1930-1968, aka "The Hays Code".


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

MysteryMan said:


> Censorship-The practice of examining books, movies, ect. and "suppressing" unacceptable parts. Do we really want to revert to the days of "The Motion Picture Production Code" 1930-1968, aka "The Hays Code".


That happens on pretty much every show already.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

sigma1914 said:


> That happens on pretty much every show already.


Then why the need for TV ratings?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MysteryMan said:


> Censorship-The practice of examining books, movies, ect. and "suppressing" unacceptable parts. Do we really want to revert to the days of "The Motion Picture Production Code" 1930-1968, aka "The Hays Code".


Who is forcing the censorship? Censorship can only be done by a government decree, regulation, act.

Editorial control is done by a company for its own standards.

The FCC censors certain words and images for public broadcast. That is censorship (and is part of the trade off for free broadcasting rights.)

TVland editorially chuses what it thinks will make them the most money in the long-run. DBSTalk editorially chuses what will be said or displayed on their businesses. But no one is censored as they can say whatever they want--somewhere's else.

If Warner Brothers feels they can make money by editing the content they have and re-licensing the reruns of _The Dukes of Hazzard, _that is not censorship. That is editorial control of their property. (I'm assuming Warner Brothers is the full rights owner. If not, whomever does can make the changes.)

Peace,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

MysteryMan said:


> Then why the need for TV ratings?


To let parents know to what level a show has been editorially defined. And on multiple scales: violence, language, etc.

Peace,
Tom


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

jimmie57 said:


> All of this mess is way overblown. People are way way too sensitive these days.
> ...
> Are we losing our freedom of speech and expression ? I fear the answer to that is absolutely.
> ...


It is overblown, I agree. But we are not losing freedom of speech. We've always had that and always will.

But what many people sadly don't understand is what that means, and what it means is that you will not be fined or jailed or persecuted by the government for beliefs or lawful, peaceful expression of them. That is not changing, nor it there any threat to that. Its a constitutional right. But that is ALL that it means.

That does not extend to what might happen if someone does something or says something that someone else has a problem with. We are protected from the government regarding freedom of speech and expression, but we are not protected from anything or anyone else.

And every choice, including the choice to freely express yourself, still has consequences. Piss off the wrong people and find out. But* that has nothing to do whatsoever with freedom of speech as a law*. You are protected by the government, but the government won't protect you against twitter, or Instagram, or your neighbors, or the biker that you just expressed your free opinion to regarding how Harley-Davidson motorcycles suck. You are free to say that to him, but I would advise against it.

So no, we have the same freedoms the constitution has guaranteed us for 250 years. Social mores swing like a pendulum; its one way for a while and then its another way, and then it swings back. Except this time social media is aggravating it. I know sports figures say something stupid all of the time, but now everything they say that is stupid is broadcast to everybody else. THAT is what has changed, not our level of freedom of speech and expression.

Kennedy was nailing Marilyn Monroe in 1962, and everyone who knew kept it hidden. And everyone knew. They passed her around like a bag of chips. And who knows why she took an overdose? Clinton does something ridiculous with a cigar in 1997, and they spend 47 million trying to impeach him. Anthony Weiner sends someone a picture of his junk in 2013, in a private email, and he's done.

The laws are still the same. The times have changed.

Freedom of speech and censorship are also two different things, and must be distinguished between. The government won't violate your freedom of expression because you walked through Times Square naked, but they will bust you on a charge for doing something against a reasonable law. James can bring my thread to a screeching halt when he deems it necessary. That is censorship, but not necessarily a bad thing, and James is not the government, he is a representative of a private business, and can do what he thinks is best. Companies are allowed to set rules for their company, based on what they think is right. I may not agree with certain censorship, but I don't make the rules, and often it is not my call.

The FCC got involved with the Janet Jackson thing, but that was not really a freedom of speech issue; that was a censorship issue, and the entire world should have rightly expected that there would be consequences attached. That there was hypocrisy involved is also beside the point. The entire idea of the FCC having that power is so that the industry will think twice and be responsible and generally censor itself, based on current social mores. It's never black and white, because its always a judgment call and everyone calls everything differently from their different points of view.

Reports are that TDOH is being downloaded and bought on DVD at a record pace. I do not see this as a reaction to the stars and bars; I see this as normal. When James Brown died his record sales went up about 4000%. In 2 weeks, no one will be downloading TDOH any more than before, this thread will die its natural death, and most of us will be on to the next new controversy.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

TomCat said:


> It is overblown, I agree. But we are not losing freedom of speech. We've always had that and always will.
> ...but the government won't protect you against twitter, or Instagram, or your neighbors, or the biker that you just expressed your free opinion to regarding how Harley-Davidson motorcycles suck. You are free to say that to him, but I would advise against it.
> 
> ...


TomCat, the whole post was a beauty and well written. I only trimmed as I didn't want to take up that much space. So I kept the LOL, though it all was excellent. 

Peace,
Tom


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Now that's censorship! :grin:

Peace back.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I see no reason to even consider pulling TDOH. I also see no reason why the confederate flag was still being flown at government facilities. There's a massive difference in the two... I don't recall hearing anyone using the dukes and the flag on its car as a battle cry or symbol of their political and or religious beliefs. The flag hanging on people's houses and in government buildings, that kind of was what was happening.. At least to me....


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

_It would be best to stay somewhere near TDOH in posts ... after all, this thread was started in TV Show Talk - not the OT or Watercooler. This place has rules that each poster has agreed to when they joined the site and should keep in mind each time they click the Post button. Some leniency is offered but too many words off topic is not good for the thread or one's ability to post in it._
(Any questions/comments about our forum should be sent by PM ... the topic of the thread is the topic here.)

I have already posted my opinion about the people who created the show ... I do not believe they chose to put that flag on the car as a hate symbol. I do not believe that they were making any political statement at all. It was a reflection of a stereotype for a "good ole boy" ... perhaps that should have been offensive to southern white people. But I do not recall the Dukes doing anything racist on the show. Certainly nothing that would have been racist when filmed.

The toilet blur on the house flipping show was a producer's choice to fit the standards of the channel where the show airs. Someone decided that they did not want to show the content of that bowl on TV - and although everyone poops they made the decision that the image in that bowl was beyond what they wanted to share with their audience. Broadcast TV has government standards to follow ... cable sets their own standards based on how much of their audience they wish to offend. Editing content can be offensive as well as not editing it. It does no channel good to tune out viewers unless their editing choices bring in more viewers than they lose.

At the moment the flag on the General Lee's roof is a touchy subject. TVLand has decided that there is other programming that can be shown to get people to watch their abundant commercials - and the cost of offending people by showing TDOH is higher than the cost of offending people by dropping the program. Warner Brothers has made the same decision with licensing replicas of the car. A simple economic decision.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

All I know is that at Amazon while you can still buy some seasons of "The Dukes of Hazard" on DVD, the DVD 7-Pack complete series is "Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available." I have to wonder how much money that car roof earned Warner Home Video in the past few weeks.

I never cared for the show. But i would have to say that some fool painting any flag on the roof of a car certainly takes away from its historical significance. That it was done for light entertainment.... There is such a thing as flag etiquette.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

phrelin said:


> All I know is that at Amazon while you can still buy some seasons of "The Dukes of Hazard" on DVD, the DVD 7-Pack complete series is "Temporarily out of stock. Order now and we'll deliver when available." I have to wonder how much money that car roof earned Warner Home Video in the past few weeks.
> 
> I never cared for the show. But i would have to say that some fool painting any flag on the roof of a car certainly takes away from its historical significance. That it was done for light entertainment.... _*There is such a thing as flag etiquette.*_


A friend of mine painted the American flag on the hood, top and trunk of his car back in the '70s. He got stopped by the cops so many times in a short period of time that he had to paint over it. The car was a huge old thing, a real beater and it looked terrible and was a terrible place to put the flag, I thought. So did the cops.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The US Flag code limits what can be done with the American Flag ... although thanks to "free speech" the code is easily broken. People who want to follow the code can use elements of the flag without creating a flag - stars separate from stripes, etc.

Other countries can be more or less sensitive about their flags. Great Britain allows the Union Jack to be used freely ... and a good looking car (such as a Mini Cooper) with a Union Jack on the roof is not offensive.

Anything in disrepair would be a problem. If your car is belching smoke or has defective equipment it will draw attention whether or not it has a flag on it.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

The Flag code certainly has no penalties with it, but is a bit ambiguous in some respects. What is the proper disposal of a nylon flag?

As for Dukes, I do agree this is really blown out of proportion. I also don't remember anything racist from the show, even on a mild level. Looney Tunes however, some of those could really be seen as rasict. Fortunately they didn't go Song of the South on those, just put a disclaimer on the discs that they are for adult viewing only.

What's worse than TV Land is the report that Bubba Watson, who bought an original General Lee is going to paint over the flag with a US flag. It's his car, so he can do as he pleases, but still hurts a bit.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

dpeters11 said:


> The Flag code certainly has no penalties with it, but is a bit ambiguous in some respects. What is the proper disposal of a nylon flag?
> 
> As for Dukes, I do agree this is really blown out of proportion. I also don't remember anything racist from the show, even on a mild level. Looney Tunes however, some of those could really be seen as rasict. Fortunately they didn't go Song of the South on those, just put a disclaimer on the discs that they are for adult viewing only.
> 
> What's worse than TV Land is the report that Bubba Watson, who bought an original General Lee is going to paint over the flag with a US flag. It's his car, so he can do as he pleases, but still hurts a bit.


If he paints over the flag then the car is worthless since it will no longer be Original.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

dpeters11 said:


> The Flag code certainly has no penalties with it, but is a bit ambiguous in some respects. What is the proper disposal of a nylon flag?
> 
> As for Dukes, I do agree this is really blown out of proportion. I also don't remember anything racist from the show, even on a mild level.


To dispose of a worn or badly faded American Flag, regardless of fabric, take it to the nearest VFW or American Legion post. They will dispose of it properly.

Regarding the Dukes, as with Bonanza, Dallas and Fantasy Island, they were mildly amusing/interesting when originally broadcast. To me, they aren't worth watching today I don't watch TVLand except when I''m forced to do so, such as at the Barber Shop. :ewww:


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Cholly said:


> To dispose of a worn or badly faded American Flag, regardless of fabric, take it to the nearest VFW or American Legion post. They will dispose of it properly.
> 
> ...I don't watch TVLand except when I''m forced to do so, such as at the Barber Shop. :ewww:


Perhaps you should change barber shops, to one where the tv is tuned to a
channel that is better suited to your awesome intellect. 

I told my barber, who is 92 years of age, that since I am getting bald he should
only charge me half price. Without missing a beat, the salty 92 year-old replied,
_"Too late, you've already gone bald. I oughta charge you double 'cause the few _
_hairs you have left are getting hard to find." _

I haven't had a barbershop shave since I was in the service so I told him if he
makes it to 100 I'll let him give me a straight-razor shave to celebrate. I'll let
you know how that works out.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Barber shops and dental offices had old issues of Time Magazine and Sports Illustrated.

www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheYadaYada.htm

Jerry: _"You know the difference between a dentist and a sadist don't you?"_

Father: "_Um.._."

Jerry: _"Newer magazines."_


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Late to the topic... but let me say this about that... and I have to backup a bit to the larger issue for context.

Some things offend people. It might not be offensive to me, but it might be to you. That doesn't make either one of us necessarily wrong. So... some find the confederate flag offensive, some don't.

To me this whole thing really slices pretty easily for the most part IF people would use common sense.

We have a freedom of expression here, so people should be able to fly the confederate flag or put it on TV or paint it on their car or whatever they want. Everybody might not like it, but that's true about a lot of things. You have the freedom to fly the flag, if I don't like it I have the freedom to fly a sign that says I don't like your flag.

But the government buildings... that's where the confederate flag should come down. As others have already said... the south lost the war, typically when the winner of a war takes over or unifies the territory, the losing side doesn't get to keep flying its flag afterward. So... the confederate flag even if it wasn't considered offensive, has no place on government buildings to me, period.

War memorials become a grey area... because a southern civil war memorial might be an appropriate place to have the confederate symbols... I'd have to think on that one... but the easy answers to me are NO for government buildings, and YES pretty much everywhere else.

Now, if you fly a flag that your neighbors find offensive... there will be blowback. That's also freedom... people are free not to like you for your beliefs if they want. We have lots of things in this country that piss people off, but are perfectly legal... and that's what being in a free country allows.

Circling back to Dukes of Hazzard to be fully on topic here with the above as background. TVLand has the right to take the show off the air... whether they did it on their own as it appears OR if they had received complaints. It's also ok for people to have complained. I personally think they didn't have to pull the show... and I don't think it would have caused much of a stir if they hadn't... I also wish Walmart hadn't pulled product from their stores. People who want to buy that stuff ought to be able to buy it since it is legal... I'm sure I've bought something at one time or another that people around me didn't like to see me buying. IT happens.

IF the ratings weren't there for reruns of Dukes... then it would get pulled... if people watched, then it would stay... that ought to be the determining factor for TVLand, and not some knee-jerk reaction trying to ride the coattails of what they think is a trend to jump onto.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

What the flag stood for in the past is not what it stands for in the present.

Today the battle flag does not represent the soldiers who fought on the battlefield of war, but the subegation of a race to sub-human status. As states rally around it in the mid 20th century as their symbol to continue their battle against intergration and equality of the races.

But the flag use in the _Duke of Hazzard_ has nothing to do about race. It is just what hicks from the south would have had on their vehicle. It no more out of place then a hood in the Bronx wearing a Yankee cap.

In my youth, during the era of baseball expansion I was hoping for an expansion team be place in Atlanta and be named the Rebels. Today, if the South gets another team, it will never be call the Rebs.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Although I haven't chimed in on the topic until now, this thread has been most
interesting, enlightening and entertaining.



> But the flag use in the _Duke_s_ of Hazzard_ has nothing to do about race. It is just what *hicks* from the south would have had on their vehicle. It no more out of place [strike]then[/strike] than a *hood* in the Bronx wearing a Yankee cap. In my youth, during the era of baseball expansion I was hoping for an expansion team be place in Atlanta and be named the Rebels. Today, if the South gets another team, it will never be call the *Rebs*.


Drew, at first and as a transplanted southerner, I took exception of your use of
"hicks", but then as I read further you also mentioned "hoods" and "rebs" so I
relaxed and realized you were being _'fair and balanced'_ with your comments
such that all factions were being more or less equally disparaged.

As to the issue, I am of the opinion that the Confederate flag should not be dis-
played officially or prominately in, on or at any state or local government facility,
with the exception of cemetaries, museums and memorials.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Cholly said:


> To dispose of a worn or badly faded American Flag, regardless of fabric, take it to the nearest VFW or American Legion post. They will dispose of it properly.
> 
> Regarding the Dukes, as with Bonanza, Dallas and Fantasy Island, they were mildly amusing/interesting when originally broadcast. To me, they aren't worth watching today I don't watch TVLand except when I''m forced to do so, such as at the Barber Shop. :ewww:


I've never seen a TV in a barber shop, Charlie. Another first for me.

Rich


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rich said:


> I've never seen a TV in a barber shop, Charlie. Another first for me.
> 
> Rich


Do they still have those ? I have not been to one for about 30 years now.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> Do they still have those ? I have not been to one for about 30 years now.


Yup, we have one just down River Road. Great place for a BS session. I go every two or three months for a buzz cut. Got sick and tired of combing my hair years ago. Buzzzzzzz.

Rich


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

Rich said:


> Yup, we have one just down River Road. Great place for a BS session. I go every two or three months for a buzz cut. Got sick and tired of combing my hair years ago. Buzzzzzzz.
> 
> Rich


Yep, I have a half inch spacer and just run the clipper over it all.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Drucifer said:


> What the flag stood for in the past is not what it stands for in the present.
> ...
> But the flag use in the _Duke of Hazzard_ has nothing to do about race...


You have points I agree with (these two).

But the controversy is not about what something stood for in the past and stands for today, it is about what folks _PERCEIVE _it to stand for.

TDOH producers and writers probably did not imply racism of any kind. But what viewers infer is something that can often be totally different.

And this is not a new attitude, there were folks back in 1983 that inferred racism from this. What has changed is our awareness of how offensive this may be to some folks.

And so the reaction is actually a sensitivity to what they may infer, correctly or incorrectly.

Awareness is a good thing. Sensitivity to the feelings of others is a good thing.

There are folks who might be incensed by that Yankee's BB cap, too. Especially if sitting in the home section of Fenway. So be aware, and sensitive, and just don't wear it there. We all have a right to be unaware and insensitive; I just think there are better ways to go through life than that.


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## Delroy E Walleye (Jun 9, 2012)

Rich said:


> I've never seen a TV in a barber shop, Charlie. Another first for me.
> 
> Rich


IIRC, they used to make TVs that scanned backwards, providing a reversed image so that barbershop customers could watch them in the mirror.

As to _The Dukes_, I thought I'd heard recently that Warner actually *were* considering remastering them with the "offensive" roof digitally removed. I'm sure if this was legitimate news, it should be searchable (I'm too lazy).


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> IIRC, they used to make TVs that scanned backwards, providing a reversed image so that barbershop customers could watch them in the mirror..


I've never heard that, but it is really just a matter of swapping the two horizontal deflection coil wires, which doesn't even require soldering.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Delroy E Walleye said:


> As to _The Dukes_, I thought I'd heard recently that Warner actually *were* considering remastering them with the "offensive" roof digitally removed. I'm sure if this was legitimate news, it should be searchable (I'm too lazy).


There was a rumor that Warner Brothers was removing the flag from the General Lee by January 1st, 2013, but that rumor was refuted in 2012 ...
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/31/the-general-lee-of-the-dukes-of-hazzard-will-not-change-its-stripes-or-stars/?_r=0

At the time, and as seen on the licensee's website, the flag was not visible on the cover art for the model kits but was shown on the decal sheet. It was up to the modeler whether they completed the kit.
http://www.round2models.com/search.php?q=general+lee


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

Now that I see it without it, I kind of miss it. It's not the same.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

Nick said:


> Perhaps you should change barber shops, to one where the tv is tuned to a
> channel that is better suited to your awesome intellect.
> 
> No problem -- switched barbers in the same shop. The guy who always had TVland on is off on Wednesdays, so I started going to the other barber, a lady who does a crew cut to my satisfaction. She has the tV tuned to HGTV most of the time. I can tolerate that. :joy: !rolling


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Street wisdom is that if you go into a barber shop and see that one of the barbers has a lousy haircut, that is the one to ask for because the other barber gave it to him.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> Yep, I have a half inch spacer and just run the clipper over it all.


When my barber retires, he's thinking about it now, I'll pick one of those up. I do enjoy my infrequent visits to Ralph's barbershop.

Rich


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## Eva (Nov 8, 2013)

The local big-box store near us removed TDOH. It is getting over blown.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The barber shops I used to go to all had TVs... they were small portable ones... and it was pre-digital-transition. I haven't been to a barber shop in many years though... once I started getting crew-cuts and then realized I could just do it myself, I never looked back.


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## B Newt (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm going to miss Daisy running around in her daisy dukes.



Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

I guess this . . . .







. . . . will never be re-airred or redone.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

Drucifer said:


> I guess this . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see the DVD release is scheduled for next month. As recently as 2011, MeTV had its broadcast rights. I couldn't find its broadcast history there, but a lot of the re-run channels have spotted old westerns from that era on Saturdays.

Cool theme song. Johny Cash sang it and it was released as a single near the end of the show's 2-year run. The star of the show and driving force behind it, Nick Adams, wanted his friend, Elvis, to sing the theme song. I think I prefer Cash's crisp voice for it over Elvis's fuller and more resonant one.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

As a period piece set at the time of the war I would not expect that show (The Rebel) to have much trouble re-airing. Perhaps one could complain that it showed a Confederate soldier in a positive light - but it seems to be a story of redemption. Not continuing the war or supporting the secessionist or slave owning attitudes of the CSA.

Over 100 years later two "god ole boys" and their family fighting injustice is a different concept. The Duke boys did not fight under that flag in the Civil War. And while General Lee did fight under that flag he considered it's use after the war as treason.

Perhaps "the Duke boys" (or their Hollywood writers) didn't understand that. The flag was just a stereotype to them and not a racist statement. But society has shifted and I wonder if the show would be made today with that flag on the roof.


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## yosoyellobo (Nov 1, 2006)

My niece was in a panic because she heard that they would be withdrawning Gone With The Wind from circulation. Had to talk her off of the bridge.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

James Long said:


> As a period piece set at the time of the war I would not expect that show (The Rebel) to have much trouble re-airing. Perhaps one could complain that it showed a Confederate soldier in a positive light - but it seems to be a story of redemption. Not continuing the war or supporting the secessionist or slave owning attitudes of the CSA.
> 
> Over 100 years later two "god ole boys" and their family fighting injustice is a different concept. The Duke boys did not fight under that flag in the Civil War. And while General Lee did fight under that flag he considered it's use after the war as treason.
> 
> Perhaps "the Duke boys" (or their Hollywood writers) didn't understand that. The flag was just a stereotype to them and not a racist statement. But society has shifted and I wonder if the show would be made today with that flag on the roof.


You're using common sense, in the world of PC, that's is never considered.


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

I hate PC. But I could not disagree more vigorously. PC always comes out of a desire to be doing the right thing (it has the word "correct" right in it, after all), and just because some might consider that someone's idea of what is right doesn't jive with their particular concept of what is right, that has no identifiable connection whatsoever to whether they might have common sense or not. They might; they might not. But someone who only pre-judges from a helicopter view that someone's actions are PC, can't really even know. Prejudice is often born of ignorance, and pre-judging and prejudice are often the same thing.

"You must be an idiot because I don't agree with you" doesn't hold water. Generalizations are more often than not ineffective. If you (and I am using "you" in a general sense; not pointing fingers here) disagree with someone and want to invalidate what they are saying, you have to have a cogent argument, or they will come off better than they should, and you will come off as a whiner. Just painting with a broad brush that PC'ers don't have common sense is not taking the time to do the due diligence to understand what they are thinking, and you can't effectively oppose an adversary that you won't be bothered to take the time to understand.

Most people who do something that is wrong-headed, or something that they think is right and are unaware of the shrapnel collateral damage it might cause, don't start out with the concept that they are going to do something wrong, although we all know what the road to hell is paved with.

And you can't just throw your hands up and claim "I can't deal with their BS". We are all our brothers' keepers, and it is our duty to do the hard work to help others see alternative patterns of thinking that are credible, and that might have a chance to get them to choose a better path, a better path for them. If you won't be bothered to take the time to understand someone's point of view, even if you disagree with it, they are never going to be motivated to take the time to understand yours.


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

richall01 said:


> As you may know, TVLand pulled TDOH because the General Lee has the stars and bars on its roof, and lately there is a general consensus among many that this is an insulting emblem.
> 
> Okay, so no one can fly the "rainbow flag" or the "ISIS" flag ???


Flags do not cause the problems. Peeps cause problems.

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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I see no reason to even consider pulling TDOH. I also see no reason why the confederate flag was still being flown at government facilities. There's a massive difference in the two... I don't recall hearing anyone using the dukes and the flag on its car as a battle cry or symbol of their political and or religious beliefs. The flag hanging on people's houses and in government buildings, that kind of was what was happening.. At least to me....


True. Back when The Dukes to of Hazard was first aired there was not any controversy. Now even shows like All In The Family would be considered "offensive".

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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

eBay is still left no members sell rebel confederate flags. In my opinion like so what?


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## TomCat (Aug 31, 2002)

What is really important is knowing what device is used to post, who it belongs to, how much RAM it has, and what app is being used. That's effective communication.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

SeaBeagle said:


> True. Back when The Dukes to f Hazard was first aired there was not any controversy. Now even shows like All In The Family would be considered "offensive".
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


Yet, we show regular programming like,"Naked and Afraid, Dating Naked, Buying Nude", etc. etc.

Just way too much made over this. The person was a Murderer. What if he would have been holding the American Flag, what then would people say and do.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

"Give them a inch and they will take a mile". Already there are those calling for the renaming of streets named after soldiers of the Confederacy. Next they'll want the removal of Confederate statues and monuments. The only reason the politicians and businesses went along with this was to keep the votes and dollars rolling in. Slavery is evil and immoral but it was the norm in much of the world (including tribes in Africa) from the time of the ancients right up until the twentieth century. As jimmie57 stated, just way too much made over this. Put the pendulum back in the middle where it belongs.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

I copied this from an article on CNN.

The Confederate battle flag was designed to stick out, to be recognizably different.
It was never the political flag of the Confederate states, although it was integrated into it over the course of the Civil War war into its canton -- its upper left field.
The original Confederate flag looked much like the Union flag at the time. So much so, that soldiers on the battle field had a hard time telling the two -- and their respective armies -- apart, when gun smoke clouded the theater.

Confederate Gen. Pierre G.T. Beauregard wanted something vividly dissimilar. Politician William Porcher Miles came up with the design we know today -- the battle flag: a blue St. Andrew's Cross with white stars on a red field.

Before this flag in question there were 5 others used during the civil war by the Confederates.

Link to article and pictures.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/us/south-carolina-confederate-battle-flag-journey/index.html


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

SeaBeagle said:


> True. Back when The Dukes to f Hazard was first aired there was not any controversy. Now even shows like All In The Family would be considered "offensive".


All in the Family was intended to be offensive ... they used Archie Bunker as an example of "this is wrong" - "NO Archie!".

It is when a racist or otherwise offensive character is supported that it becomes an issue where the show becomes offensive to the people the character is offending.

The people who shared Archie's viewpoint were likely offended that the show kept trying to "set him straight". That he was supposed to sit back and accept it when the world around him offended all of his biases. Archie was a character that they could relate to as those who shared Archie's viewpoint had to adjust their lives.

For example - An offensive Confederate battle flag on the roof of the hero's car is a problem the insensitive person is being portrayed as a hero. If the flag was on the villain's car it would be more acceptable - as that insensitive person is the bad guy. An American flag featured prominently on the bad guy's car would also be seen as offensive.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

jimmie57 said:


> Yet, we show regular programming like,"Naked and Afraid, Dating Naked, Buying Nude", etc. etc.
> 
> Just way too much made over this. *The person was a Murderer. What if he would have been holding the American Flag, what then would people say and do.*


He wouldn't as the stars and stripes does not stand for such hatred. The Confederate Flag on the other hand, as mentioned in the video posted awhile ago, stands for what he believed.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

peds48 said:


> *He wouldn't *as the stars and stripes does not stand for such hatred. The Confederate Flag on the other hand, as mentioned in the video posted awhile ago, stands for what he believed.


No way to know that. People kill for all kinds of reasons that do not make sense to any of us that have common sense.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Well... "politically" correct is the problem... and I don't want us to go down the political rabbit hole, but I'll explain what I mean. Politicians, good and bad, want votes. They choose their words carefully so as to garner the most votes... this means "politically correct" speech doesn't necessarily mean what it says.

It's like this forum... certain words aren't allowed here... but if I say "Fudge!" you know what I'm thinking... so IF the omitted four-letter profanity offends you, then you kind of ought to be just as offended by my substitute because I meant the same thing... I just used a word allowed by the filter.

What we should all be doing, as people, is trying to learn how to identify and accept our differences... and while we strive to retain our unique identities and views, also agree that there should be some neutral ground areas where we all agree to curb some things in an attempt to not cause trouble.

Like how I can be nude in my house but generally not on a public street. It's not because nudity is considered "wrong" by all people... but it would bother some people... so we all basically agree to keep our nudity out of the public streets for the most part. Is it infringing upon my natural born freedom to be naked? Sure... but it isn't hurting me... and I can be naked all I want in private... just not around you unless you also are in support of it and we are in an environment where only we can see it.

Why that logic can't extend to other things is beyond me... "do unto others" is a wise concept that is far too often completely ignored.


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## Cholly (Mar 22, 2004)

A little off topic, but it should be noted that South Carolina has removed the Confederate Battle Flag from a flagpole at the State House. It took an impassioned plea by Republican representative Jenny Horne, a descendant of Jefferson Davis, to have the flag removed.


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## Drucifer (Feb 12, 2009)

James Long said:


> All in the Family was intended to be offensive ... they used Archie Bunker as an example of "this is wrong" - "NO Archie!".
> 
> It is when a racist or otherwise offensive character is supported that it becomes an issue where the show becomes offensive to the people the character is offending.
> 
> ...


I have a couple of friends today, that could easlily fit into the Archie mold. Luckily they're as old me, so when my generation dies out all should be right with most of America as their offspring don't seem to have the same prejudice as their folks. What kills me, is as teenagers, our group of friends were a mix group of kids living in the Yorkville section of Manhattan.

But I suspect the South might still be a generation or two behind the rest of America.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Drucifer said:


> I have a couple of friends today, that could easlily fit into the Archie mold. Luckily they're as old me, so when my generation dies out all should be right with most of America as their offspring don't seem to have the same prejudice as their folks. What kills me, is as teenagers, our group of friends were a mix group of kids living in the Yorkville section of Manhattan.
> 
> But I suspect the South might still be a generation or two behind the rest of America.


Racism and bigotry will not go away with your generation. I can assure you it's alive and strong among younger people. Just look at the recent racist chant from fraternity members at Oklahoma University.

Here's a great article about how the younger generation is still carrying on racism.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/americas-racism-problem-far-complicated-think/



> Recently, chilling videos surfaced online of young University of Oklahoma students, members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity, reciting a racially-charged chant. The story appeared surprising for numerous reasons. Among them, education is supposed to reduce racial resentment (or at least temper outward expressions of it), and young people, known as Millennials, are supposed to be uniquely tolerant. The incident offers an opportunity to reevaluate how we think about racism in America, and how we can fight it.
> *Age Doesn't Matter*
> The pervasive narrative about racial change is that it occurs through generations - old racists die out, and new, young, progressive people take their place. This narrative is dubious. Age tells us far less about an individual's likelihood of expressing racist sentiments than factors like education, geography and race.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

SeaBeagle said:


> Flags do not cause the problems. Peeps cause problems.


Short, sweet and hits the nail right on the head!


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

I have a PC. But, use me iPad more.


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

jimmie57 said:


> Yet, we show regular programming like,"Naked and Afraid, Dating Naked, Buying Nude", etc. etc.
> 
> Just way too much made over this. The person was a Murderer. What if he would have been holding the American Flag, what then would people say and do.


What country are the se shows aired in?

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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

Cholly said:


> A little off topic, but it should be noted that South Carolina has removed the Confederate Battle Flag from a flagpole at the State House. It took an impassioned plea by Republican representative Jenny Horne, a descendant of Jefferson Davis, to have the flag removed.


I never can figure out why that is called a state house when it is actually the State Capital Building.

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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

SeaBeagle said:


> What country are the se shows aired in?
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


USA.
Naked and Afraid is on channel 278
Dating Naked is on channel 335 and is a Season Premiere coming soon on VH1


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## SeaBeagle (May 7, 2006)

K. Must be a new show.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Naked and Afraid (strangers attempting to survive while naked) just finished its fourth season on Discovery ... it premiered June 2013.
Dating Naked (strangers dating while naked on VH1) premiered July 2014 and is about to start the second season.
Buying Naked (nudists buying homes in clothing optional communities on TLC) had a pilot last November and began two shows per week in June.

All three shows fit with the current level of acceptability for TV nudity ... in other words, blurred beyond recognition (other than errors in editing). I suppose people could be offended by the concept - or the lame plot lines. Take away the nudity and only "Naked and Afraid" would be creative. (Dating Naked is just another dating show ... Buying Naked is just another real estate show.)

The concept of unseen nudity on TV has been around for decades. I remember the 70s and 80s where every show seemed to tease nudity at some point (if not often) during their run. Making it a feature of every show doesn't seem too surprising.

Bo and Luke were naked with women present on a second season episode of the Dukes of Hazzard ("The Ghost of General Lee").
Daisy changed her clothes (shown in shadows) on a different second season episode ("Witness For The Persecution").
(Boss Hogg was in the room while she changed - but neither of them knew it until she got in bed with him.)

Unseen nudity was and remains a quite popular plot device for writers.


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