# HDTV Antenna = 100 Mile Range?



## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

I am looking for an antenna that will reach 100 Miles. I live in Mid-Missouri and need to reach St. Louis. The tower is 95 Miles away. Is this possible? Can I even get HD that far away?


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

Go to antennaweb.org and see what it says. 

If there are no obstacles between you and the towers, then you may get a signal. It might not be too stable however.


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## 66stang351 (Aug 10, 2006)

Its possible, but depends on the terrain and the stations transmitting power. I have picked up stations from 90-100 miles. You need a big directional antenna and to hope that you can get lucky.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

100 miles is pretty far. It may be possible, but it will be difficult.

You would probably need a pretty big directional antenna, and you would need to mount it pretty high and outside. Buildings, hills, and even trees can block or reduce the signal strength.

You may also need some amplifiers for the antenna.

Check www.tvfool.com for information on signal strength in your area. Make sure you check the post-Feb-2009 channel allocations, to see if you need just a UHF or a VHF/UHF antenna.

Note that there is no difference between an HD and a SD antenna.

You may want to check the Antenna section of www.hdtvprimer.com, which has a lot of good information on antennas, including gain charts for some commercially available antennas.


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## tuff bob (Mar 5, 2007)

100 miles is typically not doable except in certain weather conditions, it certainly will be unstable. Basically most TV transmitters will be "under the horizon". Even Chicago transmitters that are over 1,500 ft high only have a line of sight distance of about 75-80 miles at best.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Your not looking for an antenna that can receive from a 100 miles away you are looking for a broadcaster that can send a usable signal 100 miles.It will also depend on what frequency the signal is broadcast. VHF carries farther than UHF does but most of the digital transmissions are in the UHF frequencies.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Big antenna & a mast mounted pre-amp. I used both and have watched shows from 120-150 miles away [in UHF].
While the TV signal may[will] be low, you can make up for it with one or two antennas with high gain. My antennas have about 19 dB gain and pre-amp another 20 dB.
If you don't need VHF, something like this: http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

100 miles is way beyond line-of-sight because of the curvature of the earth. A good place to check on possible reception is tvfool.com; if that site says you won't be able to receive the stations you probably can't. 

If the 91XG suggested by VOS, or a CM4228, does not work (with a decent preamp) then probably nothing will. And as he says, that's for UHF stations.


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## bagdropper (Sep 24, 2007)

texasbrit said:


> 100 miles is way beyond line-of-sight because of the curvature of the earth. A good place to check on possible reception is tvfool.com; if that site says you won't be able to receive the stations you probably can't.
> 
> If the 91XG suggested by VOS, or a CM4228, does not work (with a decent preamp) then probably nothing will. And as he says, that's for UHF stations.


I can tell you with experience that the AD 91XG is a less stable antenna day to day, but it definitely has a farther reach here in CR IA. I could pick up the Quad City locals from 70-85 miles away with the 91XG, but barely can with the 4228, but the 4228, for my locals (45 miles), is much more stable.

I lost the 91XG in the big ice storm in March 2007 (big horizontal footprint, lots of ice buildup weight killed the mast in the wind) - this past winter we had 2 ice storms, not as bad but comparable, 4228 came through like a charm, more vertically oriented.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

rh535 said:


> I am looking for an antenna that will reach 100 Miles. I live in Mid-Missouri and need to reach St. Louis. The tower is 95 Miles away. Is this possible? Can I even get HD that far away?


Also check out the information in the "Local HDTV Reception Forum" at http://www.avsforum.com. Find the thread for St. Louis and ask local experts for their antenna advice.

In my experience it won't be possible. You might achieve some degree of analog TV reception under certain weather conditions, but you'll have a much harder time with acceptable digital TV reception at that distance.

Let us know what you discover.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

I'm in Southern IL about 88 miles from St Louis. I have the Channel Master 4228, a pre amp, and a 25ft mast. The only time I can get St Louis UHF is after 8pm because of certain weather related occurrences that causes the signal to reach my area. It's to bad WB11 isn't going back to 11 after the shut off because I can get their VHF signal 24x7. 

My advice for that distance is forget about it right now. You will never be happy with the reception at that distance. I strongly advise you A) look to get waivers B) Find out if the sat spot beam hits your local area and then "move" to St.Louis.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

In 2001 I had my CM 4221 mounted in my attic on a rotator because there were at least five stations broadcasting in HD from Los Angeles compared to the one station broadcasting in HD here in San Diego. With the antenna pointed at Mt. Wilson I was able to get ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and I think KTLA. The distance? 103 miles as the crow flies. Of course all of the broadcast towers for all of the LA stations are located on Mt. Wilson at an approximate altitude of 6,000 feet. With the same antenna, pointed at Mt. San Miguel in San Diego, only 20 miles away, I can't get the three stations that broadcast from there. But turning the antenna farther south at Mt. San Antonio in Mexico, 31 miles away, I can get the Fox station that broadcasts from there.

It's all about geography. Another factor is the broadcast pattern of the station. A station doesn't necessarily broadcast in a perfect 360 degree circle and if a station is broadcasting most of it's power in a 180 degree beam, if you're on the other side of that beam pattern, you're SOL.

No matter how many people you ask, the only one way to determine whether you can receive a signal or not, is to try it yourself. I have neighbors in my neighborhood who have different reception experiences than mine.


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## aa9vi (Sep 4, 2007)

tuff bob said:


> 100 miles is typically not doable except in certain weather conditions, it certainly will be unstable. Basically most TV transmitters will be "under the horizon". Even Chicago transmitters that are over 1,500 ft high only have a line of sight distance of about 75-80 miles at best.


Good point. And Missouri is not nearly as flat as Illinois. I'd say the only way to do this is to have a 70' tower, a nice 25 dB or more preamp, RG-6 quad shield coax, and an antenna with rated 120-160 miles on the bands of interest.

That will only give you a small chance of getting the signal given the terrain and line of sight with UHF issues in your neck of the woods. I hope you're on a hill or forget it.

Go to tvfool.com and look up the radiation patterns, too.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

It really depends on how flat it is or how high your towers. They do sell "deep fringe" antennas that can get 100+ miles, for VHF. Here is an example at Solid Signal: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=ANC3671

I think you'd want that antenna on as high a tower as you can stand. Say 40 feet or so.

And I know it's possible with no problem, but again depends on terrain. I grew up in Southwest Michigan. About 100 miles from Chicago and we got all the Chicago VHF stations just fine but the UHF were pretty snowy (which means in the digital world they probably wouldn't lock in). We were a good 200 feet higher in sea level then Chicago and it was a steady rise from Lake Michigan. Our house was on a hill and we had a 10 foot tower on top of a 3 story farm house. Needless to say it was up there.

We could turn the rotor and also get Milwaukee stations if the weather was right and Fort Wayne as well. South Bend, IN was our main market and of course they were good. But we couldn't get Grand Rapids, MI which was only half as far away as Chicago but there is a lot of hills in the way.

Good luck!


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## l8er (Jun 18, 2004)

rh535 said:


> I am looking for an antenna that will reach 100 Miles. I live in Mid-Missouri and need to reach St. Louis. The tower is 95 Miles away. Is this possible? Can I even get HD that far away?


Here's my $.02 worth - shortly before satellite TV gained a foothold, people in our part of Missouri were still putting up 50' + towers and high gain top-of-the-line Winegard antennas with antenna mounted pre-amps to try and get the St. Louis stations. We're about 90 miles NW of St. Louis, and with a rotor, Columbia, Jefferson City, Hannibal and Quincy were all receivable for the most part day and night. (45 miles to Columbia/Jeff City, 50 some miles to Hannibal/Quincy).

My own experience was a 60 foot tower on high terrain at a house in the country with Winegard's most expensive VHF/UHF and antenna mounted pre-amp. At night Channel 30 (then independent) would come in crystal clear - in the daytime - not at all. 11 was receivable fairly clear most nights - but again in the daytime - zilch. 2, 4 and 5 were all iffy at night and non-existent in the daytime. I'm guessing the UHF specs on the antenna and pre-amp were better than the VHF specs and back then there was nothing to interfere with channel 30. The ironic part about getting channel 30 crystal clear at night back then was - they went to some kind of pay TV at 7 PM until 6 AM the next day and were scrambled all night.

From what I can tell, most VHF/UHF antennas now are not as good as what Winegard was making back then (and I can't even find an antenna with the pre-amp mounted right on the antenna (as opposed to on the mast). So I'd guess your chances with digital (UHF or VHF) at 95 miles away will be slim to none between sunset and sunrise - and near zero between sunrise and sunset.

And keep in mind, the higher you go with the antenna, the more likely you are to pick up interference from other distant channels on the same frequency, particularly at night.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

I think i will just give up on the idea of getting stations 100 miles away. Thank you for the help and replies. I am looking at getting just a basic antenna. What about this Terk HDTVs Is this a good antenna? How much do you think it will cost to have it installed?


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

rh535 said:


> I think i will just give up on the idea of getting stations 100 miles away. Thank you for the help and replies. I am looking at getting just a basic antenna. What about this Terk HDTVs Is this a good antenna? How much do you think it will cost to have it installed?


No, this is not a good antenna choice. Just about all the Terk antennas are overpriced and underperforming.
To select an antenna, you need to know where the stations are that you want to receive, what power they are using, and whether they are VHF or UHF. Post back with your zip code and we will give you some suggestions.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

texasbrit said:


> No, this is not a good antenna choice. Just about all the Terk antennas are overpriced and underperforming.
> To select an antenna, you need to know where the stations are that you want to receive, what power they are using, and whether they are VHF or UHF. Post back with your zip code and we will give you some suggestions.


My zip is 65101


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

It's not been mentioned yet - but there is no such thing as an "HD" antenna - an antenna is an antenna, it picks up the station's broadcast frequency for you, it doesn't matter if they are sending NTSC, ATSC, HD or no, the same antenna is used.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

rh535 said:


> My zip is 65101


www.antennaweb.org shows you have mostly VHF stations with 1 UHF religious broadcaster. Broadcasters look to be 3-25 miles away so very local. Locations of broadcaster may be a problem seeing they are not all located in the exact same direction. I would suggest if you can find them a Winegard PR7000 10 element antenna about $25-30. A Winegard GS1100 Sensar (bat wing) antenna again in the $25-35 range. Or any short distance RCA/Magnavox/Radio Shack branded antenna. I would suggest a compass heading of 345degrees for a starting point.

Because your broadcasters use different locations the smaller less directive your antenna is the better the odds are of finding 1 aiming direction that will work With the lack of UHF stations you will not be able to use the really small UHF only antennas. With the close proximity of your broadcasters a Zenith Silver Sensor would be a recommendation for an indoor antenna but that only works for UHF stations. Your only digital broadcasters use ch 8 & 12 both VHF channels.

Good luck with locals.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

rh535 said:


> My zip is 65101


You'll need a VHF/UHF antenna.

Any good roof-mounted antenna (Radio Shack, Channel Master, etc) should do the trick.

Since you will be receiving signals from Jefferson City, Columbia, and Sedalia, you either want an antenna which is not too directional, or you want a very-directional antenna with a rotor.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I second the Sensar antenna - I am doing very well with the GS2200 model (pre-amp built-in), picking up two markets about 160-185 degrees apart, 25-40 miles away.


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## phlevin (Apr 3, 2007)

This is an interesting idea, probably more work than you'd want. Follow the links in the article- http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/06/diy-gray-hoverman-antenna-promises-better-ota-reception/ direct to information- http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

phlevin said:


> This is an interesting idea, probably more work than you'd want. Follow the links in the article- http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/04/06/diy-gray-hoverman-antenna-promises-better-ota-reception/ direct to information- http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm


That is a UHF-only antenna. It won't work for the original poster since he needs UHF and VHF.


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

Not to mention - if you look at the details in this chain-link fence door antenna - it performs similarly to equal size traditional antennas. And don't forget your wind-loading.


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## phlevin (Apr 3, 2007)

Upstream said:


> That is a UHF-only antenna. It won't work for the original poster since he needs UHF and VHF.


Thought he wanted HDTV from St. Louis, looks like it's all UHF (right col.)- 
MO	KTVI 2 St Louis	43
MO	KMOV	4	St Louis	56
MO	KSDK	5	St Louis	35
MO	KETC 9 St Louis	39
MO	KPLR 11 St Louis	26
MO	KDNL	30	St Louis	31


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

phlevin said:


> Thought he wanted HDTV from St. Louis, looks like it's all UHF (right col.)-
> MO	KTVI 2 St Louis	43
> MO	KMOV	4	St Louis	56
> MO	KSDK	5	St Louis	35
> ...


That is what he wanted but is going to settle for a smaller antenna to get the stations in Columbia/Jefferson City, which would appear to be his DMA. His zip code is Jefferson City.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

JeffBowser said:


> I second the Sensar antenna - I am doing very well with the GS2200 model (pre-amp built-in), picking up two markets about 160-185 degrees apart, 25-40 miles away.


The Sensar is not the best choice for the OP since it is a bidirectional antenna designed for signals approximately 180 degrees apart. The OP would be looking to pick up signals from a couple of cities in a band of about 90 degrees. He would be better off with a single-directional antenna and a rotor. Any mid-priced Winegard, Radio Shack, or Channel Master antenna (VHF/UHF) will serve his needs.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Upstream said:


> The Sensar is not the best choice for the OP since it is a bidirectional antenna designed for signals approximately 180 degrees apart. The OP would be looking to pick up signals from a couple of cities in a band of about 90 degrees. He would be better off with a single-directional antenna and a rotor. Any mid-priced Winegard, Radio Shack, or Channel Master antenna (VHF/UHF) will serve his needs.


Have you ever used a Sensar? Considering his FOX affilliate is only about 3 miles away he dosen't even need an antenna for that one. I see the spread as 64 degrees not 90 and ruling out the broadcaster next door it is only about a 30 degree spread for the rest.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Put the Sensar on a rotor. I did it at my parents' house. It consistently picks up channels 50 miles away.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Essentially you need the following to try to reliably receive a distant TV station:

1. A good high gain (directional) antenna

2. Pre-amp

3. High elevation

4. Few obstacles b/w you and the station

5. Rotor, if not all of the desired stations are from the same antenna farm/direction

6. Luck.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

n3ntj said:


> Essentially you need the following to try to reliably receive a distant TV station:
> 
> 1. A good high gain (directional) antenna
> 
> ...


'
if they can build a radio telescope that can get a radio signal from lightyears away, they should be able to build an antenna that is 50 ft wide to get a tv signal from 1000 miles away


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

I still believe with proper positioning the Sensar would eliminate the need for a rotor. I'm a big fan of getting my stations without fussing with a rotor 



Upstream said:


> The Sensar is not the best choice for the OP since it is a bidirectional antenna designed for signals approximately 180 degrees apart. The OP would be looking to pick up signals from a couple of cities in a band of about 90 degrees. He would be better off with a single-directional antenna and a rotor. Any mid-priced Winegard, Radio Shack, or Channel Master antenna (VHF/UHF) will serve his needs.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> '
> if they can build a radio telescope that can get a radio signal from lightyears away, they should be able to build an antenna that is 50 ft wide to get a tv signal from 1000 miles away


Then you also have to deal with the Earth's curvature out past 100 miles. A radio telescope looking out into space can see things line of sight, whereas wide band RF doesn't fair too well. You may get some weather related ducting or skip, but this does not provide for constant reliable TV reception.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> if they can build a radio telescope that can get a radio signal from lightyears away, they should be able to build an antenna that is 50 ft wide to get a tv signal from 1000 miles away


Your antenna would have to be miles high off the ground to receive a transmission from 1000 miles away because the horizon (and therefore the Earth) will be in the way. Low frequencies like AM radio can curve around the Earth, but not anything as high as VHF or UHF.


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

BNUMM said:


> Put the Sensar on a rotor. I did it at my parents' house. It consistently picks up channels 50 miles away.


My point was that for less than the cost of the Sensar, he could get a single-directional antenna with higher gain. That would also eliminate the possibility of bidirectional interference he might see with the Sensar (though that is probably not a major concern).

To Boba:

From TVfool.com, I see his primary post-Feb-2009 stations as:

KNLJ (channel 25.1) (15 miles) 7 deg 
KRCG (channel 13.1) (15 miles) 6 deg
KOMU (channel 8.1) (29 miles) 345 deg
KMIZ (channel 17.1) (31 miles) 311 deg
KMOS (channel 6.1) (41 miles) 284 deg

The angle between KNLJ and KMOS is 83 degrees (which is why I said he needs to rotate about 90 degrees).


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

bakers12 said:


> Your antenna would have to be miles high off the ground to receive a transmission from 1000 miles away because the horizon (and therefore the Earth) will be in the way. Low frequencies like AM radio can curve around the Earth, but not anything as high as VHF or UHF.


of course, but I was thinking of catching an Ionosphere bounce (Kennalie Heavyside layer)


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

curt8403 said:


> of course, but I was thinking of catching an Ionosphere bounce (Kennalie Heavyside layer)


Why stop there, bounce it off the moon:  http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-EME-TVDX.html

(Found that while trying to find info about the old channel master 4251 which was a UHF antenna with a 7' parabolic reflector. Some said it was the best distance antenna ever made, but they stopped making it (too big for shipping))

Here you go: http://www.rocketroberts.com/cm4251/cm4251.htm


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

paulh said:


> Why stop there, bounce it off the moon:  http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-EME-TVDX.html
> 
> (Found that while trying to find info about the old channel master 4251 which was a UHF antenna with a 7' parabolic reflector. Some said it was the best distance antenna ever made, but they stopped making it (too big for shipping))


did not know that the moon bounces radio waves that well, and if it starts bouncing anything else (other than lasers) I think we are all in trouble


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> of course, but I was thinking of catching an Ionosphere bounce (Kennalie Heavyside layer)


That's the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer, used for HF radio, but not UHF.....

I'm not that pessimistic about the OP's quest, provided the terrain is unobstructed. We do 100 miles all the time here at 40' with a big UHF yagi, preamp, and RG11. It's not 24/7, but "primetime" is the best time of day.


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> That's the Kennelly-Heaviside Layer, used for HF radio, but not UHF.....


sorry, was unsure of spelling, In any case it was a joke. who would want a tv antenna that was more than 12 ft wide?


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Right. Who would want one? Hard core OTA fan's!  I actually remember those 7' CM's. Not real good for ice storms or hurricanes, though. Channel Master used to make quite a few big UHF-only antennas. Since their acquisition, their antenna line-up is much reduced.


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## N5XZS (Apr 26, 2002)

You want to see extreme TV DXing via F2 layer!!! Well here it is.....:eek2: 

This signal is from Dubai...:eek2:






This signal is from New Zeland via E-skip.






Here's couple more of them enjoy!!!

Very rare USSR video test card vie E-skip, now talk about blast from the past!! eek2






Digital TV DX!!!
















4-15-08


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

K4SMX said:


> Right. Who would want one? Hard core OTA fan's!  I actually remember those. Not real good for ice storms or hurricanes, though. Channel Master used to make quite a few big UHF-only antennas. Since their acquisition, their antenna line-up is much reduced.


I once had an AM antenna that was made from the coil of a huge old generator. It had about 5 miles of copper wire in it in one continuous piece


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

According to the TV Fool calculation, I have line of sight to 6 digital stations that are slightly over 100 miles away, and, as of the digital transition, it estimates the signal strengths as -74 to -88.5dbm. It says an attic antenna might bring them in. I'm on the east coast of Oahu, and the transmission towers are (or will be) on Maui, with only ocean between us. So far as I know, none of the digital stations on Maui have yet gone live, but they should soon. (The towers are no longer atop Mount Haleakala.)


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## DTV installer (Jan 18, 2007)

yes its made by wingard you can buy one at www.skywalker.com with the right pre amp and a eagle aspen coaxal rotor you will be all good


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

GregLee said:


> According to the TV Fool calculation, I have line of sight to 6 digital stations that are slightly over 100 miles away, and, as of the digital transition, it estimates the signal strengths as -74 to -88.5dbm. It says an attic antenna might bring them in. I'm on the east coast of Oahu, and the transmission towers are (or will be) on Maui, with only ocean between us. So far as I know, none of the digital stations on Maui have yet gone live, but they should soon. (The towers are no longer atop Mount Haleakala.)


That should be interesting! I have a similar situation at my other location, where it's ~100 miles LOS from an elevation of over 4,000 feet. Even though the digital signals are always solid 24/7, I notice quite a bit of variation at times. On some days they can be off quite a bit from normal, and I've seen days where every single station was at 100%.

The unusually strong signals usually occur in the hotter months due to temperature inversions during stable air. You should see a lot of these between the Hawaiian Islands, because they occur more frequently over open water. In radio wave propagation terms, this phenomenon is known as "tropospheric ducting," and UHF signals have been known to travel as far as 500 miles or more. The area where the air masses meet creates a refraction index differential, causing the radio waves to in effect bend along the underside of the warmer temperature overlay.


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## cweave02 (Oct 12, 2007)

curt8403 said:


> I once had an AM antenna that was made from the coil of a huge old generator. It had about 5 miles of copper wire in it in one continuous piece


Sounds to me like a disguised still.:hurah:


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

cweave02 said:


> Sounds to me like a disguised still.:hurah:


don't need to disguise the still, it was in the barn,, the antenna was about 1 foot cube


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

cweave02 said:


> Sounds to me like a disguised still.:hurah:


Spoken like a true Appalachian-American! Be headin' that way soon, "C"......


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Thanks for the pix of the Channel Master parabolic. I remember everyone used to have those in the early 70's in Madison, Wi. We had Big sideways "V" shaped Winegard and Channel Masters to pick up blacked out Packer games in Milwaukee. 

Channel Master's Quantum series is still my favorite. In the mountains of NW Arkansas, that's about all you see installed. Channel Master had some great antenna's before they were bought out. Now they pretty much have crap, as far as high gain stuff. Their UHF Quantum blew the doors off Rat Shacks U100 in a side by side test here.

I'm still using a Quantum Deep Deep Fringe UHF/Suburban VHF antenna on a rotor here...Go up every spring and silicone all the rivets and connections. Gotta make it last, since they discontinued the whole series.

I saw where another company was making some antennas using Channel Masters old 70's design that looks like a ">-" but I can't find the link or remember the name.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

What is a good company to install the antenna?

Location: Jefferson City, MO 65101


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## Friendswood (Jan 17, 2008)

texasbrit said:


> No, this is not a good antenna choice. Just about all the Terk antennas are overpriced and underperforming.
> To select an antenna, you need to know where the stations are that you want to receive, what power they are using, and whether they are VHF or UHF. Post back with your zip code and we will give you some suggestions.


I could not agree more! I tried out two pricey Terk antennas and the results were very disappointing. Both were out-performed by the little cheap RadioShack antenna that I put up when I first bought my house.


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## gocardinals (Dec 12, 2005)

Can I jump in here. My zip code is 61401. I have an HR21 and will be getting the AM 21 soon. What stations can I realistically be able to receive with an indoor antenna? And what is the best indoor antenna? Thanks! I previously had mixed success with my TIVO250 and a set top indoor antenna. From what I have read, maybe the HR21 and AM 21 will get a better signal than my Tivo250?


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

Try www.tvfool.com


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## gocardinals (Dec 12, 2005)

Is is true I should get a little better reception with the HR21/AM21, than I did with the Tivo 250?


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Yes. Design changes in ATSC tuners advances each year. I can lock 3 stations with my $50 Hauppage USB HD tuner stick that the HR20 refuses to lock on to.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

gocardinals said:


> Is is true I should get a little better reception with the HR21/AM21, than I did with the Tivo 250?


Yes.


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## MarkN (Jul 13, 2007)

I have a question about mileage. When someone says they are say...100 miles from the transmitting tower is that nautical miles or road miles??


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## JeffBowser (Dec 21, 2006)

That would be straight line distance.



MarkN said:


> I have a question about mileage. When someone says they are say...100 miles from the transmitting tower is that nautical miles or road miles??


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MarkN said:


> I have a question about mileage. When someone says they are say...100 miles from the transmitting tower is that nautical miles or road miles??


"As the crow flies", and he's a land bird [hence no nautical knowledge].


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

gocardinals said:


> Can I jump in here. My zip code is 61401. I have an HR21 and will be getting the AM 21 soon. What stations can I realistically be able to receive with an indoor antenna? And what is the best indoor antenna? Thanks! I previously had mixed success with my TIVO250 and a set top indoor antenna. From what I have read, maybe the HR21 and AM 21 will get a better signal than my Tivo250?


With an indoor antenna, it more depends on your surrounding topography and how many walls in your house the signal has to pass through between the Quad Cities and your TV. (Are there any hills/buildings/etc blocking the signal, but it looks like (from the TVFool map that the Quad Cities should be solid with any decent UHF antenna. any other markets will be more of a luck factor with an indoor antenna.)
Remember antennas that look like traditional antennas usually perform better than many new "sleek looking", more expensive antenna's, and and accurate signal to begin with means more than amplification. 
Personally I'd start by trying something on the cheaper side, probably from Radio Shack. Currently all Quad City's OTA HDTV is UHF, but they may move back to the old VHF after the transition, so your current ideal antenna may be obsolete next March, unless you want to use that UHF only antenna to try occasionally picking up Peoria stations


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## jamieh1 (May 1, 2003)

I live about 8 miles east of Washington NC, I get the Raleigh NC OTA stations which are about 90 miles away to the west, I get these stations from around 5pm to 9am.
I have a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna with a preamp. This antenna picks up VHF channels very well also.


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## MarkN (Jul 13, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> "As the crow flies", and he's a land bird [hence no nautical knowledge].


ok smart guy!!


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

Back when I had OTA TV. I had a huge 20ft roof mounted antenna on a roter I'd turn it the direction I wanted to pick up. Which was 75+ miles away. It fell down during a bad storm many years ago. I bought a small antenna (rabbit-ears) and DTV converter thinking a DIGITAL signal went further. WRONG!! Damn thing wouln't even pick up a SD/HD station about 25-30 miles away that I can pick up now with a small pocket tv with a 4" ant. DTV is the pits! I even hooked the converter to a full size ant about 10 ft off the ground without the converter I could faintly pick up stations 75 miles away with converter the 30 mile station would not come in this is with a huge 6 ft ant. I'm glad I have D* and CableTV back up otherwise I'd be up s*creek!


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## bubbers44 (Jan 23, 2007)

Unless you are a boat person all miles are statute miles as the crow flies. 5,280 ft versus 6000 ft. I live 60 statute miles from the Miami transmitters and with an atttic high gain antenna and preamp can get the UHF HD stations but not any of the VHF low power stations. Next Feb I am hoping the VHF HD stations will pump up their power when they can't transmit analog VHF any more.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

xmguy said:


> Back when I had OTA TV. I had a huge 20ft roof mounted antenna on a roter I'd turn it the direction I wanted to pick up. Which was 75+ miles away. It fell down during a bad storm many years ago. I bought a small antenna (rabbit-ears) and DTV converter thinking a DIGITAL signal went further. WRONG!! Damn thing wouln't even pick up a SD/HD station about 25-30 miles away that I can pick up now with a small pocket tv with a 4" ant. DTV is the pits! I even hooked the converter to a full size ant about 10 ft off the ground without the converter I could faintly pick up stations 75 miles away with converter the 30 mile station would not come in this is with a huge 6 ft ant. I'm glad I have D* and CableTV back up otherwise I'd be up s*creek!


Don't blame DTV on what may be completely different issues regarding your DTV signals.

1) most DTV stations are currently using UHF. Stations must now broadcast 2 frequencies at the same time, and there are not available VHF frequencies in most markets. "Rabbit Ears" are for VHF, "Bow Ties" are for the shorter UHF wavelengths. VHF signals travel beyond the horizon (Good for 75+ mile reception) , UHF does not reliable travel beyond line of sight (Bad for 75+ mile reception). You might get lucky attempting to use a VHF antenna for UHF DTV coverage, but you are not that lucky guy. Use the above TVFool link to find out what your DTV stations are and get an appropriate antenna for your frequencies. Please note after the analog cutoff, most stations may start broadcasting DTV from their "old" analog frequency, so after the cutoff you might get better luck with your current setup.

2) Personally, I get perfect DTV reception from my HDTV FOX station 30 miles away with a mere $3 Radio Shack bowtie dangling below my TV. (Now I admit the location of my house (not obstructed by hills or other buildings) and my TV (which is facing the antenna location and only has one outside wall to pass through) is more of an ideal situation.

3) remember the greatest problem with DTV coverage is "multipath" Multipath is the same thing as analog "ghosting" DTV (especially older tuners) does not know what to do with many multipathing issues, so there is no usable signal to decode. Get a more directional antenna to eliminate multipat issues. Sometimes moving the antenna an inch or 2 can make a big difference (It does when I pick up other DTV stations with my "dangling bowtie")


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

paulh said:


> Don't blame DTV on what may be completely different issues regarding your DTV signals.
> 
> 1) most DTV stations are currently using UHF. Stations must now broadcast 2 frequencies at the same time, and there are not available VHF frequencies in most markets. "Rabbit Ears" are for VHF, "Bow Ties" are for the shorter UHF wavelengths. VHF signals travel beyond the horizon (Good for 75+ mile reception) , UHF does not reliable travel beyond line of sight (Bad for 75+ mile reception). You might get lucky attempting to use a VHF antenna for UHF DTV coverage, but you are not that lucky guy. Use the above TVFool link to find out what your DTV stations are and get an appropriate antenna for your frequencies. Please note after the analog cutoff, most stations may start broadcasting DTV from their "old" analog frequency, so after the cutoff you might get better luck with your current setup.
> 
> ...


I bought this : http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family
VHF/UHF/HDTV antenna. I know VHF goes further. But what's crazy that now I can get a UHF channel about 20+ miles away on analog on a small pocket tv 4" antenna. With an 10 ft antenna VHF/UHF outdoor antenna 10 ft off the ground. Would not get squat via the DTV converter.


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## paulh (Mar 17, 2003)

xmguy said:


> I bought this : http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family
> VHF/UHF/HDTV antenna. I know VHF goes further. But what's crazy that now I can get a UHF channel about 20+ miles away on analog on a small pocket tv 4" antenna. With an 10 ft antenna VHF/UHF outdoor antenna 10 ft off the ground. Would not get squat via the DTV converter.


That antenna, unfortunately, looks like an omnidirectional antenna, and omnidirectional antennas, while good for getting signals from different tower locations in ideal locations, are worst in multipath issues. 
In general, I am suspect at any "circuitry" to reduce multipath issues vs conventional outdoor antenna design that uses metal grids to blocking interfering signals, and amplification is really not needed on a set top antenna. (Amplification is only needed to compensate for signal loss on the wire between an outdoor / attic antenna and TV, and in the worst case scenario an amplifier may result in more noise being added to the signal.)

Although I do not have any experience with this one, many, many HDTV users report that the "Silver Sensor" is the best performing indoor UHF antenna: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html Since the silver sensor is so highly directional, it may not be ideal for picking up all stations at the same time if you need to receive from multiple tower locations.


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## Rakul (Sep 3, 2007)

paulh said:


> That antenna, unfortunately, looks like an omnidirectional antenna, and omnidirectional antennas, while good for getting signals from different tower locations in ideal locations, are worst in multipath issues.


Actually I think it's directional, it has a little remote and a rotor inside to spin it around. I have one but don't use it that often, works great for pulling in Charlottesville stations which are 20-30 miles from me. Can't get the Richmond stations which are 30+ though.


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

Rakul said:


> Actually I think it's directional, it has a little remote and a rotor inside to spin it around. I have one but don't use it that often, works great for pulling in Charlottesville stations which are 20-30 miles from me. Can't get the Richmond stations which are 30+ though.


Your right. It came with a remote for turning the UHF antenna inside the saucer shaped section. I'm inclined to think the DTV converter was CRAP!


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

paulh said:


> 3) remember the greatest problem with DTV coverage is "multipath" Multipath is the same thing as analog "ghosting" DTV (especially older tuners) does not know what to do with many multipathing issues, so there is no usable signal to decode...


Fortunately, most newer DTV tuners ignore multipath, or even use it to their advantage.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

jamieh1 said:


> ...I have a Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna with a preamp. This antenna picks up VHF channels very well also.


the 4228 has very high gain for UHF channels 14 thru 51. It also works quite well for upper VHF channels 9 thru 13, so-so for 7 & 8 and not too well for chs 2 thru 6. Fortunately, most DTV stations were smart enough to abandon the low VHF band, because it's too prone to interference for reliable DTV use.

To the OP, if you can't get decent OTA, you probably qualify for HD channels from NY on DirecTV. Enter your address *here* to see if it says "ELIGIBLE" for any of the networks.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

For those of you who are more knowledgeable about these things...here's my situation. Out in my ZIP code (78643, Austin DMA) I only have one local of any consequence that can be pulled in well from here (KXAM 14.1, which gets a strong signal with a cheap set of indoor rabbit ears through an HR20-700). All the others look like they'd need high gain and deep fringe UHF antennas. At least all the signals are from the same direction (119 or 120) so a strong directional without rotor might suffice, but it's about 60 miles and quite hilly. I see tvfool.com shows the signals to be from -102 to-108 dBm (for those who know what that means). 

So in reality I think I can only get the one OTA channel, which I'm getting with a small set-top indoor antenna. (Fortunately that one is a LIN station which I otherwise couldn't get in HD through D*).

For those of you in the know...does it wound like I'm stuck? I don't want to buy the equipment and the installation and find out it was likely a waste.


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## K4SMX (May 19, 2007)

Sixty miles is quite doable, but not if you're at the bootom of the hill looking up. So a lot depends on your local topography. Flat ground should be no problem.


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## gocardinals (Dec 12, 2005)

paulh said:


> With an indoor antenna, it more depends on your surrounding topography and how many walls in your house the signal has to pass through between the Quad Cities and your TV. (Are there any hills/buildings/etc blocking the signal, but it looks like (from the TVFool map that the Quad Cities should be solid with any decent UHF antenna. any other markets will be more of a luck factor with an indoor antenna.)
> Remember antennas that look like traditional antennas usually perform better than many new "sleek looking", more expensive antenna's, and and accurate signal to begin with means more than amplification.
> Personally I'd start by trying something on the cheaper side, probably from Radio Shack. Currently all Quad City's OTA HDTV is UHF, but they may move back to the old VHF after the transition, so your current ideal antenna may be obsolete next March, unless you want to use that UHF only antenna to try occasionally picking up Peoria stations


Thanks! Very informative.. just waiting for the AM21 now.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

K4SMX said:


> Sixty miles is quite doable, but not if you're at the bootom of the hill looking up. So a lot depends on your local topography. Flat ground should be no problem.


Thanks. We're in a town which sits in a wide river valley. But the hills around us aren't that high and the elevation here is about 500' higher than where the transmitters are, so maybe that might help a little?

I'm looking at possibly a CM 4228 with amplifier (I was considering a DB8 but my understanding is that they might be as good a choice after 2009), but I'd hate to find out it was a waste of money up here. I should probably start asking around if there's even anyone up here that does antenna installs; most of them are doing satellite now.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

ziggy29 said:


> ... I'm looking at possibly a CM 4228 with amplifier (I was considering a DB8 but my understanding is that they might be as good a choice after 2009)..


I think you meant the DB8 might *not* be as good a choice after 2009 as the 4228. The DB8 doesn't have as much gain for VHF chs 7 thru 13 as the 4228 does.

KTBC-DT, Fox Austin will be moving to VHF channel 7 in 2009. Neither of these antennas has a lot of gain for 7, so fringe viewers may need a separate VHF antenna for 7.

The CM 7777 is a good low noise VHF/UHF preamp. It can be used with combined V/U input or switched for using separate VHF & UHF antennas.

.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

arxaw said:


> I think you meant the DB8 might *not* be as good a choice after 2009 as the 4228. The DB8 doesn't have as much gain for VHF chs 7 thru 13 as the 4228 does.


Yeah, that's what I meant, thanks. Neither is that great with 7, but it seems like the 4228 is a little better than the DB8 in that respect.

Would a preamp be better than an amplifier in my case, in this fringe area? Most of what I read told me to go for a high gain, relatively "deep fringe" directional antenna with an amplifier. And again, since almost every station's transmitter is within 1-2 degrees of each other, a plain directional antenna should suffice if I can pick up the fringe signals from 60 hilly miles away.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

ziggy29 said:


> ...Would a preamp be better than an amplifier in my case, in this fringe area? Most of what I read told me to go for a high gain, relatively "deep fringe" directional antenna with an amplifier. And again, since almost every station's transmitter is within 1-2 degrees of each other, a plain directional antenna should suffice if I can pick up the fringe signals from 60 hilly miles away.


Definitely a preamp, vs a regular "coax" amp. You want to amplify the signal as close to the antenna as possible. Amplifying the other end of the coax amplifies any noise the cable picked up. Gain numbers shown on amps at big box stores and Rat Shack are often grossly inflated. Avoid them.

I use a 4228 + 7777 for stations ~71 mi away and receive all of them @ 100% signal strength on. I'm also on a ridge top, which helps. I also get VHF chs 9 (digital), 10 (analog) & 13 (analog) perfectly. Lower VHF numbers will probably not work as well with the 4228. YMMV.


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## sparkman386 (Jun 3, 2008)

DTV reception is quite possible to 100mi or more, I can get some DTV stations from Indianapolis IN on a somewhat regular basis mainly at night/early to mid morning here in Louisville KY using a homemade uhf yagi at approximately 35ft above ground. On rare occasions St. Louis MO, Nashville TN and other distant areas.


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## generalpatton78 (Dec 17, 2003)

sparkman386 said:


> DTV reception is quite possible to 100mi or more, I can get some DTV stations from Indianapolis IN on a somewhat regular basis mainly at night/early to mid morning here in Louisville KY using a homemade uhf yagi at approximately 35ft above ground. On rare occasions St. Louis MO, Nashville TN and other distant areas.


We aren't talking about DXing or ducting. This thread is mainly wanting to know about conditions for 24hrs 7 days a week with regards to reception. For the most part UHF reception hits a wall in the 70 mile range. When you get over that you have to either live on a very nice hill or the broadcast antennas must be on a mountain. For VHF the range is a fair amount further. I know I can get reception from a St Louis VHF station that is 90 miles away with my CH 4228 24/7.


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## sparkman386 (Jun 3, 2008)

rh535 said:


> I am looking for an antenna that will reach 100 Miles. I live in Mid-Missouri and need to reach St. Louis. The tower is 95 Miles away. Is this possible? Can I even get HD that far away?


Do a google search for the Gray-Hoverman Antenna
This antenna works surprisingly well, Mine is still in the final construction phase, but as it is right now I can receive approx 80mi away inside my 2nd floor apt using it with a Channel Master CM7777 preamp. Hope this helps your situation.


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

sparkman386 said:


> Do a google search for the Gray-Hoverman Antenna
> This antenna works surprisingly well, Mine is still in the final construction phase, but as it is right now I can receive approx 80mi away inside my 2nd floor apt using it with a Channel Master CM7777 preamp. Hope this helps your situation.


Do you have any links for drawings?


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

I live in northern Mass. to the north i can get a station 78 mi away in Portland Maine reliable signal 24/7 flat terrain. South it is a little harder, towers are a bout 35 mi. but i have a ski hill in my LOS. signals are little lower but reliable. 85 element Channel Master yagi whit preamp.About 35 ft AGL. I feel 100mi is possible under the right conditions.But i don't know if practical.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

I have moved on from a outdoor antenna. What is a good indoor antenna for around $50?

My Location
http://antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

rh535 said:


> I have moved on from a outdoor antenna. What is a good indoor antenna for around $50?
> 
> My Location
> http://antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx


Put the fifty bucks toward a good rooftop antenna you won't be sorry.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

rh535 said:


> I have moved on from a outdoor antenna. What is a good indoor antenna for around $50?
> 
> My Location
> http://antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx


UHF or VHF & UHF? You don't have a town listed in your location and the link you posted goes to the landing page for antennaweb.org

You can get antenna recommendations for your specific town over at avs forum. Find your town's thread *here*.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

arxaw said:


> UHF or VHF & UHF? You don't have a town listed in your location and the link you posted goes to the landing page for antennaweb.org
> 
> You can get antenna recommendations for your specific town over at avs forum. Find your town's thread *here*.


I live in Jefferson City 30 miles from Columbia


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

Just using a zip code for Jeff City, antennaweb only shows one digital TV station available, KRCG-DT CBS. It is VHF ch 12 and depending on your _specific location_, you may need an outdoor VHF antenna to reliably receive it. If you have a set of dipole rabbit ears laying around go ahead and try them. Extend the dipoles about 13" each, connect the rabbit ears to your TV's Ant-In jack and scan for digital channels.

Go back to http://www.antennaweb.org and enter your complete address for a more accurate list of stations you may be able to get. Then, post the list of digital channels here and the signal strength "colors" are for your address.


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## rh535 (Nov 2, 2007)

arxaw said:


> Just using a zip code for Jeff City, antennaweb only shows one digital TV station available, KRCG-DT CBS. It is VHF ch 12 and depending on your _specific location_, you may need an outdoor VHF antenna to reliably receive it. If you have a set of dipole rabbit ears laying around go ahead and try them. Extend the dipoles about 13" each, connect the rabbit ears to your TV's Ant-In jack and scan for digital channels.
> 
> Go back to http://www.antennaweb.org and enter your complete address for a more accurate list of stations you may be able to get. Then, post the list of digital channels here and the signal strength "colors" are for your address.


Here is my complete address.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

I removed the analogs from the list. Currently, you have one VHF and the rest are UHF. In Feb of '09 you'll have two VHFs and the rest UHF, so you'll need a VHF+UHF antenna. Your signal may be strong enough to use a simple indoor antenna like this one from Radio Shack. Another one that has worked well for many people is this one.

Do *not* buy any antennas made by Terk. They are overpriced and usually don't work well. Or if they do, something cheaper would've probably worked as good or better.

Buy from a store that allows returns.


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