# E* ad during World Series Game 1



## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

Dish ran an ad last night, very early in the game, where they touted having "more than 70 national HD channels right now" with more coming soon. The MAJOR difference between E*'s ad and D*'s ads is that D* actually shows the channel names. The E* ad shows video footage to represent a channel.

So, if Dish and Direct are both pumping out "70 national channels", then why don't we have the same "national channels" that Direct has?

Voom, HD-PPV, NBA, NHL DO NOT count as "national channels". If Dish is trying to pass these off as part of the "national channel" list, shame on them!!!

I kept looking through our HD channel list throughout the game and no new "national channels" were added


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If you are going to throw away Voom then there is no way you will hit 70.

D* counts all sorts of non-national channels in their "over 70" count ... right now I have the score as E* 42, D* 47 ... but some people like to add RSNs and PPVs.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

I don't know why people continue to want to throw away Voom and not count it, but will happily count channels that maybe only have 3 hours of HD per day?

Aside from that... I noticed something interesting about the DirecTV ad last night... their channels they show, some don't exist. I saw on one of the satellites, for instance, images from ABCFamilyHD but Disney/ABC hasn't launched that channel and announced it will launch next year... so how is DirecTV advertising it has channels that don't even exist?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

James Long said:


> If you are going to throw away Voom then there is no way you will hit 70.
> 
> D* counts all sorts of non-national channels in their "over 70" count ... right now I have the score as E* 42, D* 47 ... but some people like to add RSNs and PPVs.


Funny - E* only started counting the GAME-ONLY, PART-TIME channels which BTW are NOT IN ANY WAY NATIONAL since DirecTV lit up the sky with HD. DirecTV is NOT counting GAME-ONLY, PART-TIME channels in their number, if they did they would still lead at about 90.

What channels that D* counts in its 70 are not available to a sub ANYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY?


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

HDMe said:


> I don't know why people continue to want to throw away Voom and not count it, but will happily count channels that maybe only have 3 hours of HD per day?
> 
> Aside from that... I noticed something interesting about the DirecTV ad last night... their channels they show, some don't exist. I saw on one of the satellites, for instance, images from ABCFamilyHD but Disney/ABC hasn't launched that channel and announced it will launch next year... so how is DirecTV advertising it has channels that don't even exist?


I agree, they should NOT advertise channels not yet on the system.

I also agree that VOOM should be considered without doubt.

They are stretching it when they say they have 75 national channels since they are including about 20 RSNs that are only available in local DMAS though.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

Any normal person would consider "national channels" to be common channels. Such as Comedy Central, TBS (remember that debacle?), TNT, ESPN, A&E, Speed, CNN, Fox News, NFL Network, FX, etc. 

I am not putting down the Voom channels, I'm glad we have them. The truth is, they are "specialty" channels, not "national channels".

Is D* distinguishing which channels are active and which are planned adds in the commercial? No, which is deceitful. But, they do run two ads that are saying, "Want FX in HD? Switch to....". "Want National Geographic in HD? Switch to..." That one is REALLY funny because we have that in HD already. 

Both of these jokers need to be held accountable as to what is a REAL national channel and what is a specialty.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> What channels that D* counts in its 70 are not available to a sub ANYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY?


You say that as if E* is counting channels available to no one.

Someone gets each channel E* provides. Someone gets each channel D* provides.

The difference between E* and D* is the "magic" HD channels that the providers don't even have in HD ... for example, the latest six RSNs - which are SD upconverts created by D* except for the same game feeds that E* provides (except E* provides games for 22 RSNs).

D* started the inflation. E* was happy to give out a "32" channel number until D* started pushing "100", then "up to 100" and now "over 70" and count HD locals and distants in their counts. What do you expect E* to do? Announce a count of "42 real HD channels" and spend all their time calling D* liars? It is much easier for E* to just count the way D* counts.

Don't like the inflation? Put the blame where it belongs on D* - the leader in lying about channel counts. 



davethestalker said:


> Both of these jokers need to be held accountable as to what is a REAL national channel and what is a specialty.


If the HD content on the channel channel is available to ALL customers nationally I'd say it should be counted. But if there is no HD content or the only HD content on that channel is regional then it isn't a national channel.

Voom is available nationally with no blackouts. Niche or not it exists. If D* had it you can be sure they would count it.


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

davethestalker said:


> Dish ran an ad last night, very early in the game, where they touted having "more than 70 national HD channels right now" with more coming soon. The MAJOR difference between E*'s ad and D*'s ads is that D* actually shows the channel names. The E* ad shows video footage to represent a channel.
> 
> So, if Dish and Direct are both pumping out "70 national channels", then why don't we have the same "national channels" that Direct has?
> 
> ...


Why does Voom not count?

What constitutes a National Channel? Is it not a channel that the entire country can get?

While many of the Voom channels are BS most of them are quality HD 24/7.

Now do you mean channels that "everyone" can get and not just E*?

Why is a part time channel somehow better than an exclusive 24/7 HD channel?

While I have some issues with Dish I happen to like "most" of the Voom channels. The content is much improved over a few months ago and I find myself watching them far far more than I did last year.

TBS, TNT and the like might be great someday if they stop the stretch and add more real HD but until then I'll take Voom over them any day.

-JB


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

JB, check my reply a couple of posts up as to what I think a "national channel" is and the examples I gave.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> What channels that D* counts in its 70 are not available to a sub ANYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY?


I guess we would need to see lists of the channels that each is claiming.

We'll also need to establish how many hours of HD per week a channel must deliver real HD programming to justify being considered anything more than a HD event channel. A game-only HD channel may offer more HD minutes per week than some of the conventional full-time channels that are currently carried (I'm thinking of TBS, Speed and maybe even SciFi).


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

All I know is that I wouldn't trade the "National" channels I recently gained for E's Voom channels. But that's just me.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

harsh said:


> I guess we would need to see lists of the channels that each is claiming.
> 
> We'll also need to establish how many hours of HD per week a channel must deliver real HD programming to justify being considered anything more than a HD event channel. A game-only HD channel may offer more HD minutes per week than some of the conventional full-time channels that are currently carried (I'm thinking of TBS, Speed and maybe even SciFi).


We don't need to establish any such rules for how much programming a channel provides - where does it say that? Did that rule exist when ESPN-HD launched?

The list of channles DISH is claiming is in their presss release and DOES include the 22 RSNS they carry LOCALLY ONLY.


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## FTA Michael (Jul 21, 2002)

Me, I thought it was funny that it was all about HD channels, but on my TV, it was a SD ad during the HD WS!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

And yet another HD counting thread gets underway ...

Lists available at http://jameslong.name/hdcount.html
_Count as many or as few as you like!_

(I don't break them down by hours of HD content ... just channels provided!)


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

And just because a channel doesn't broadcast in HD 24/7, doesn't not make it an HD channel. My local channels only do the HD thing during primetime and they're still HD channels. Psh.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

James Long said:


> You say that as if E* is counting channels available to no one.
> 
> Someone gets each channel E* provides. Someone gets each channel D* provides.


But DISH claims these to be NATIONAL - I am surpirsed that even you buy into their claim here.



James Long said:


> The difference between E* and D* is the "magic" HD channels that the providers don't even have in HD ... for example, the latest six RSNs - which are SD upconverts created by D* except for the same game feeds that E* provides (except E* provides games for 22 RSNs).


D* provides most of those channels as well for game feeds, and does not count them in their 'National number'



James Long said:


> D* started the inflation. E* was happy to give out a "32" channel number until D* started pushing "100", then "up to 100" and now "over 70" and count HD locals and distants in their counts. What do you expect E* to do? Announce a count of "42 real HD channels" and spend all their time calling D* liars? It is much easier for E* to just count the way D* counts.


D* does not count those part-time channels, so get it straight finally.



James Long said:


> Voom is available nationally with no blackouts. Niche or not it exists. If D* had it you can be sure they would count it.


Of course they would - but if you read my post - I said they should count. You are a master of mixing up a person's words. Re-read what I said about VOOM in post 5.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> Don't like the inflation? Put the blame where it belongs on D* - the leader in lying about channel counts.


If memory serves me correctly, actually that credit goes to Chuck. Channel counts have always been a big thing, but it started to get heated when the Dish 500 was introduced. Access to up to 500 channels with one dish, including locals from a few dozen DMAs you couldn't get. While I'm no fan of DirecTVs marketing department, it was Chuck that started it, DirecTV just took it to the next level.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

davethestalker said:


> I am not putting down the Voom channels, I'm glad we have them. The truth is, they are "specialty" channels, not "national channels".


I'm not sure how you figure that Voom channels are somehow regional or pinpoint focused in their appeal. Maybe I'll grant you Gameplay HD, but its demographic is clearly International.

An RSN that offers programming centering on one or two teams per sport is clearly more focused than most of the Voom offerings. I can't imagine counting TBS as an HD channel even though it is clearly a "national" channel.

That subscribers can only get acceptable SD quality from "HD" channel doing upconversion is certainly nothing to brag about. I would go so far as to subtract points for content that is altered from its OAR.


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## Taco Lover (Jan 8, 2007)

I've got to say that my interest in coming to this site daily has gotten smaller since all I ever see are threads about the ad wars, the definition of a national HD channel, etc.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> But DISH claims these to be NATIONAL - I am surpirsed that even you buy into their claim here.


I do? That surprises me. My count is 42 vs 47 ... I'm not buying into 75 vs 79.



> D* provides most of those channels as well for game feeds, and does not count them in their 'National number'
> 
> D* does not count those part-time channels, so get it straight finally.


Unfortunately, D* does count them. Check their HD page.



> Of course they would - but if you read my post - I said they should count. You are a master of mixing up a person's words. Re-read what I said about VOOM in post 5.


What I wrote was in response to dave. Perhaps you got that mixed up?



Steve Mehs said:


> If memory serves me correctly, actually that credit goes to Chuck. Channel counts have always been a big thing, but it started to get heated when the Dish 500 was introduced. Access to up to 500 channels with one dish, including locals from a few dozen DMAs you couldn't get. While I'm no fan of DirecTVs marketing department, it was Chuck that started it, DirecTV just took it to the next level.


Capacity of the dish, not channel availability.

D* gets the prize for being the first to count music channels ... E* then added their music channels to the count and got "AT100CD" (many years ago). The inflation continues.


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## Miggity (Aug 10, 2007)

Taco Lover said:


> I've got to say that my interest in coming to this site daily has gotten smaller since all I ever see are threads about the ad wars, the definition of a national HD channel, etc.


Especially since TBS-"HD" doesn't count! Can I turn this into a Stretch-o-Vision trashing thread?


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> And yet another HD counting thread gets underway ...
> 
> Lists available at http://jameslong.name/hdcount.html
> _Count as many or as few as you like!_
> ...


Maybe u can add CW HD & MyNetworkTV HD to the "Local Network Affiliate HD - Select Markets" section of the DirecTV list... Here in Los Angeles, as well as a couple of other cities we get CW HD from DirecTV. Other cities get MyNetwork HD also.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

TBS-HD sure as heck counted during the MLB Playoffs. How many E* customers were fuming because they couldn't watch the game in HD?


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

braven said:


> And just because a channel doesn't broadcast in HD 24/7, doesn't not make it an HD channel. My local channels only do the HD thing during primetime and they're still HD channels. Psh.


Good luck on finding ANY HD programming on an SD channel. Let me know when you see some. Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying HD programming (when it's available) on the HD version of the same channel. Don't blame the HD channel because the provider is not pumping HD programming through that channel 24/7. Even ESPN HD has ESPNHD in the side boarders when a 4:3 program is on that HD channel.

I think what you meant to say was, "Just because a channel doesn't broadcast in HD 24/7 does not make it *NOT* an HD channel". Am I correct?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> We don't need to establish any such rules for how much programming a channel provides - where does it say that?  Did that rule exist when ESPN-HD launched?
> 
> The list of channles DISH is claiming is in their presss release and DOES include the 22 RSNS they carry LOCALLY ONLY.


If we're going to engage in a civil discussion of who offers more national HD, we must agree on what "national HD" means. If Brand X offers 100 channels, but only 4,000 hours of real HD per week, is that more than Brand Y's 50 channels with 5,000 hours per week of HD programming?

If we don't establish parameters, it comes down to something like an argument over what "soon" means.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

davethestalker said:


> Good luck on finding ANY HD programming on an SD channel. Let me know when you see some. Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying HD programming (when it's available) on the HD version of the same channel. Don't blame the HD channel because the provider is not pumping HD programming through that channel 24/7. Even ESPN HD has ESPNHD in the side boarders when a 4:3 program is on that HD channel.
> 
> I think what you meant to say was, "Just because a channel doesn't broadcast in HD 24/7 does not make it *NOT* an HD channel". Am I correct?


Ha ha, yeah you knew what I meant. Using the logic of many E* subscribers, local HD channels shouldn't be counted either.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

I don't think locals should be counted in the list of HD channels. The simple reason being is that they (exact same locals) are not available to everyone that has either cable or one of the satellite providers. Just as a real national channels is one that is carried across the board from ALL providers.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

So the Voom channels don't count? Gotcha.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

braven said:


> So the Voom channels don't count? Gotcha.


Not as a "national channels", no. They are exclusives or, as I said before, specialty channels. They are not available to everyone across the country that has cable or the other sat. provider.

In my thinking, national channels are common and well known channels regardless of provider. Just as D* better not be counting the NFL games they have a stranglehold on as part of their HD count. They are not common and available to everyone across the board, that has a provider of course.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Taco Lover said:


> I've got to say that my interest in coming to this site daily has gotten smaller since all I ever see are threads about the ad wars, the definition of a national HD channel, etc.


Those posts are pretty easy to avoid. In looking at the ten most recent topics on the front page, half of them are about questions/issues with the HR20/HR21 and there is one ad thread that shows up.

As pregnancy is a result of sex, flaring tempers are a result of heated discussions. Just make it a point to avoid it and you won't get pregnant.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

davethestalker said:


> Not as a "national channels", no. They are exclusives or, as I said before, specialty channels. They are not available to everyone across the country that has cable or the other sat. provider.
> 
> In my thinking, national channels are common and well known channels regardless of provider. Just as D* better not be counting the NFL games they have a stranglehold on as part of their HD count. They are not common and available to everyone across the board, that has a provider of course.


I can definitely respect your opinion.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

Thanks Braven, I appreciate that.


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## bairdjc (Sep 22, 2005)

HDMe said:


> I don't know why people continue to want to throw away Voom and not count it, but will happily count channels that maybe only have 3 hours of HD per day?
> 
> Aside from that... I noticed something interesting about the DirecTV ad last night... their channels they show, some don't exist. I saw on one of the satellites, for instance, images from ABCFamilyHD but Disney/ABC hasn't launched that channel and announced it will launch next year... so how is DirecTV advertising it has channels that don't even exist?


seriously, and this comes up in every one of these "counting" discussions. So someone doesn't like Voom, and doesn't want to "count" it for E*. OK well I don't like ANY of the sports channels - does that mean they shouldn't be "counted"? IF anything, the bottom line comparison would be an apples-to-apples count of the amount of unique HD programming per month, total. This way although most of the "HD" channels are SD, upconverted SD or part-time sports stations, overall they will get little weight since there is hardly any true HD on them at all.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

davethestalker said:


> Not as a "national channels", no. They are exclusives or, as I said before, specialty channels. They are not available to everyone across the country that has cable or the other sat. provider.


There are more providers offering some or all of the VOOM channels than there are offering the D* exclusives. That's a very poor criterion.

Smithsonian and MGM are of International appeal and I don't think anyone could convince me otherwise. The same goes for most of the VOOM channels.


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## marcuscthomas (May 4, 2006)

A "National Channel" is available nationwide vs a "Regional Channel" which is not. That is my take. Voom is national, RSN's are not.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> They are not available to everyone across the country that has cable or the other sat. provider.


I guess that since Fox Business News is not available here from ANYONE but Directv you should take it off the list. Voom is available to any cable company that wants to pick it up, just as Fox Business News is available to anyone who wants to pick it up. If you are going to delete Voom you should delete FBN.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

marcuscthomas said:


> Voom is national, RSN's are not.


The follow-up question: whether an RSN offered nationally is a national channel.


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## Miggity (Aug 10, 2007)

There are some awesome Voom Channels (Monster, Kung Fu, Filmfest, World Cinema, HDNews come to mind) but there are also some terrible Voom Channels (Treasure, Gallery, Family, Ultra)...

then again this is just like, my, opinion man.

Yes, TBS-HD during the playoffs was rad, but thats all they had. Now playoffs are over TBS-HD ain't got nuthin'... at least they could be decent enough to air Famiy Guy and Seinfeld in the correct aspect ratios, along with The Office in HD actually...


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

Miggity said:


> Yes, TBS-HD during the playoffs was rad, but thats all they had. Now playoffs are over TBS-HD ain't got nuthin'... at least they could be decent enough to air Famiy Guy and Seinfeld in the correct aspect ratios, along with The Office in HD actually...


They finally put The Office in HD? I tuned in a few nights ago and it was Stretch-O-Vision and I have not been back since.

I'm gonna stick my neck out here, but to be brutaly honest, even Speed and G4 are not true "national channels". On cable, more often than not Speed is part of a "package", as is G4. Although some cable line ups may have them as part of a basic package not needing a digital decoder. While some cable providers (Charter) recently pulled G4 from is "no box needed line up" and now stuck it in a digital "package".

These are the sort of shenanigans that prevent channels from being common to everyone across the board. I suppose now I should add (excluding HD) "packaged" channels are not (in my book) "national channels", like Discovery, Food Network, ESPN, ESPN2, TNT are.

Fox Business News is a specialty channel, while Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, are not. Bloomberg is a specialty. Turner Classic Movies is a specialty. Fox Movies is also, it's usually in a tiered package.

Do we have Voom SD? NO, therefore they are not "national channels". They are both specialty and packaged channels not part of EVERY common channel line up.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

VeniceDre said:


> Maybe u can add CW HD & MyNetworkTV HD to the "Local Network Affiliate HD - Select Markets" section of the DirecTV list... Here in Los Angeles, as well as a couple of other cities we get CW HD from DirecTV. Other cities get MyNetwork HD also.


D* does not have those channels listed on their website.



braven said:


> TBS-HD sure as heck counted during the MLB Playoffs. How many E* customers were fuming because they couldn't watch the game in HD?


Five? Ten? Yep ... there was a lot of noise about the late arrival of TBS-HD - there was also a lot of rebuttal from those who knew that it would be yet another "no HD" channel after a few days.



davethestalker said:


> > So the Voom channels don't count? Gotcha.
> 
> 
> Not as a "national channels", no. They are exclusives or, as I said before, specialty channels. They are not available to everyone across the country that has cable or the other sat. provider.


Then none of the new "D* only" channels count, nor does any channel not picked up by all cable systems.


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## zlensman (Jan 15, 2006)

Taco Lover said:


> I've got to say that my interest in coming to this site daily has gotten smaller since all I ever see are threads about the ad wars, the definition of a national HD channel, etc.


Amen to that, Brother! I get enough partisan discussion watching the news.

harsh, you are right to say that we should avoid these posts, but I'm finding it difficult. That's because these posts are polluting threads that start out on a different topic. I have seen whole threads hijacked for yet another tired discussion of ad wars or channel counting.

Sorry to continue this tangent. Now, back to yet another tired discussion. :backtotop


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## Miggity (Aug 10, 2007)

davethestalker said:


> They finally put The Office in HD? I tuned in a few nights ago and it was Stretch-O-Vision and I have not been back since.


Oh no it's alllllllllll stretched out to hell and back. It is letterboxed SD stretched horizontally only. What I said was that it would be nice to see it in HD. A step in the right direction to get me to stop clowning on their crappy channel.


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

How do I got all the RSN on dish can I subscribe to them according to DISH CSR I can not and have to live in the area the RSN is provided.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> I agree, they should NOT advertise channels not yet on the system.
> 
> I also agree that VOOM should be considered without doubt.
> 
> They are stretching it when they say they have 75 national channels since they are including about 20 RSNs that are only available in local DMAS though.


I too was disappointed to see Dish begin to publically count all their channels (like RSNs and PPVs) as if they were equal. That bothers me.

I am ok counting some of the newer channels even if they are not 24/7 HD, as long as they have some HD and the channel is up all day... I only challenge those channels when people challenge Voom. The only real "complaint" about Voom is from people who don't like the content.. which is fair to a point... but there are lots of other channels I don't watch or like the content and yet I recognize they are channels that should count.

That said.. I have often gone on record as saying Voom really doesn't need to be 15 discrete channels. Based upon their repeat patterns... I think they could probably consolidate to 8-10 channels and still carry all the content they have now, but more efficiently.

I would never argue to drop Voom entirely, or to trade the whole suite for other channels, or even a 1-for-1 swap (say UltraHD that I never watch for USAHD that I would watch)... but I can and have argued before that we don't need 8-10 channels worth of content watered down and spread over 15 channels.


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## rlgold88 (Aug 30, 2006)

Ok. so I'm confussed Which has more?

My second ? is I am trying to understand the counting hd channel process. If an hd channel has to have 24/7 hd programs then it could be said their are no hd channels on D* or dish? ouside of a couple if that? Thats crazy 
I guess depending on how you want to count it will always be if your a D* subscriber you have more, if your a dish subscriber you have more.

If you subsribe to both you have alot more!!!!


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> D* does not have those channels listed on their website.


Listed right under Local HD channels, on their website:

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/packProg/channelChart2.jsp?assetId=1100086

And for my zip code 90291 DirecTV shows CW HD CH 5, on their website


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## Sirshagg (Dec 30, 2006)

A national channels is a channel that nearly any subscriber can get if they want to subscribe to a package it's in. 

IMHO D* is cheating since they count the four major networks 3 times and as far as I know NOBODY gets local HD and both distant HD network feeds.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Sirshagg said:


> A national channels is a channel that nearly any subscriber can get if they want to subscribe to a package it's in.
> 
> IMHO D* is cheating since they count the four major networks 3 times and as far as I know NOBODY gets local HD and both distant HD network feeds.


DirecTV counts the DNS channels twice - not 3 times. They count those as 8 total channels in their statements.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> D* does not have those channels listed on their website.
> 
> Five? Ten? Yep ... there was a lot of noise about the late arrival of TBS-HD - there was also a lot of rebuttal from those who knew that it would be yet another "no HD" channel after a few days.
> 
> Then none of the new "D* only" channels count, nor does any channel not picked up by all cable systems.


umm..take a look again dude..i was there today...they are very much listed there

National channels are channels you will see, on D*, E*, comcast, charter...ect.....in HD or SD....tnt, tbs, usa, sci fi, FX, mtv, ect.

VOOM is not available nation wide by all providers or most providers...so it should not be counted as national...neither should all the FSN...since they dont give local sports to the whole nation...neither should the 4 btn alt. channels for games on the weekend...or NBA HD that has "programming not available"...not now at least.

fact is...this is a new marketing campaign by E*. They are short on bandwith and more than likely delaying HD launch dates because of it...so they will start promoting how they have better HD, and better DVR's in the meantime...it was in E* retailers press release today ...perhaps scobuck can put the link up again? Not good news for those of us counting on more HD anytime soon


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

davethestalker said:


> Any normal person would consider "national channels" to be common channels. Such as Comedy Central, TBS (remember that debacle?), TNT, ESPN, A&E, Speed, CNN, Fox News, NFL Network, FX, etc.
> 
> I am not putting down the Voom channels, I'm glad we have them. The truth is, they are "specialty" channels, not "national channels".
> 
> ...


How are the following channels any more special than say: MonstersHD over ChillerHD, or Rave over MHD, or Equator over Discovery, or Filmfest/World Cinema over other movie channels, or Animania over Cartoon, or HD News over CNN, or Family over ABC Family or RUSH or Worldsport over other sports channels? I would agree that Gallery, KungFu, Gameplay, and Treasure are specialty channels but they still add a wide variety of entertainment for many people. "Wide Variety" is the key element which is no different than the "wide variety" of channels that any provider offers it's subscribers, whether you're interest in them or not. And I defy anyone who has never watched ULTRA to say the channel is useless, especially when some of the programming is right out of the center pages of Victoria's Secret Magazine.


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

davethestalker said:


> Dish ran an ad last night, very early in the game, where they touted having "more than 70 national HD channels right now" with more coming soon.


I only saw DirecTV ads during the World Series. The copy was virtually identical to what you said in your post.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

but they *do* have more HD nationals...hence all the frustration


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

davethestalker said:


> Do we have Voom SD? NO, therefore they are not "national channels". They are both specialty and packaged channels not part of EVERY common channel line up.


I was going to comment on this post, but decided .... that.... never mind.

Not worth the effort.

OK. I will. Any channel that doesn't have programming that I like should not be counted as a National channel.

And then there are the awesome Voom Channels (Treasure, Gallery, Family, Ultra)... as opposed to the terrible Voom channels (Monster, Kung Fu, Filmfest, World Cinema, HDNews)

Actually, I don't find any channels "terrible", but I respect the interests of others.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

texaswolf said:


> National channels are channels you will see, on D*, E*, comcast, charter...ect.....in HD or SD....tnt, tbs, usa, sci fi, FX, mtv, ect.
> 
> VOOM is not available nation wide by all providers or most providers...so it should not be counted as national...


Sorry, but I just can't agree with that. By this logic only channels that are on every provider would count, which means by definition all providers would be equal. If you can't count a channel that is on one and not another, then it counts for no one.

As has been pointed out.. Chiller is a channel only on DirecTV right now... so it sounds like you are saying once it goes HD, if DirecTV is the only one carrying it then it shouldn't count?

I agree companies are inflating their channel counts, both Dish and DirecTV are guilty of this to varying degrees... but to not count an exclusive because it is exclusive makes no sense.

And for the record.. Voom is not exclusive to Dish. DirecTV until recently had no bandwidth for it, and during that time took a public approach that they weren't interested even when they got the bandwidth. How is that any different than Dish having bandwidth issues now and saying they have no interest in recent channel launches from DirecTV?

From my perspective... Dish has some stuff DirecTV doesn't and I like them. DirecTV now has some things that Dish doesn't have, and I would like those. But I'm not going to flame a channel and say it doesn't count just because I can't get it.

I will question content. I question Voom being 15 channels when it really could be about 8-10 and have all the same stuff using less bandwidth. I similarly question some of the new DirecTV channels that barely have any HD at all. On the other hand, a channel like USAHD sounds like it does have quite a bit of HD.

I think I'm pretty fair and balanced with these things, even though I am a Dish customer and have no plans/desires to go to DirecTV.


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## mtnsackett (Aug 22, 2007)

well in the race for Hd "King of the mountain" I can see why providers are adding any and every HD channel under the sun. Including counting your HD ppv channels as a national channel, but trying to count programing like the HD knitting channel and a HD infomercial channel (which do not exist)is just padding the books. although they may be Hd or have the ability to add hd programing is not a national channel. neither is counting all 230 Hd locals and adding them to your count, all it is is a peeing for distance contest and I think D* and E* will be supprised when their Aunt Rose (IE some cable company)Wins and makes them both look like fools. if you want to totaly go crazy D* would have aprox 350 plus channels including locals, nationals, NFL SUNDAY TICKET, NASCAR, MLB, NHL, NBA, ESPN GAMEPLAN, 

lets stop calling them national channels but only count the most popular or accepted channels, and leave specialty channels out of the mix.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

HDMe said:


> Sorry, but I just can't agree with that. By this logic only channels that are on every provider would count, which means by definition all providers would be equal. If you can't count a channel that is on one and not another, then it counts for no one.
> 
> As has been pointed out.. Chiller is a channel only on DirecTV right now... so it sounds like you are saying once it goes HD, if DirecTV is the only one carrying it then it shouldn't count?
> 
> ...


easy rockstar ...i wasn't singling out E* when it came to Nationals...as you pointed out VOOM isn't only on E*...The channels i think should be cosidered are the one's i had mentioned that you will find on every..or most cable or sat provider...BTN isn't even there yet...but i didn't count them out...just the 4 alt. channels they have for saturday...E* is not the only one to carry them either.

I was not singling out any provider when it came to nationals i was talking about the channels not individual providers....don't be so quick to jump to E*s defense...geez


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## richiephx (Jan 19, 2006)

mtnsackett said:


> well I can see adding HD ppv channels as a national channel but programing like the knitting channel and a HD infomercial channel although it may be Hd or have the ability to add hd programing is not a national channel. all it is is a peeing for distance contest and I think D* and E* will be supprised when their Aunt Rose Wins and makes them both look like fools


   Please clarify what you said. Thanks.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

richiephx said:


> Please clarify what you said. Thanks.


lol...he is saying that the boring HD channels like gallery or treasure in HD shouldn't be considered "national channels"...im sure D* has channels like this too...i just don't know them by name....easy voomaholics...im not trying to bash it


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## mtnsackett (Aug 22, 2007)

texaswolf said:


> lol...he is saying that the boring HD channels like gallery or treasure in HD shouldn't be considered "national channels"...im sure D* has channels like this too...i just don't know them by name....easy voomaholics...im not trying to bash it


acualy I have never watched a voom channel. I guess i was saying this is childish, it is a PR war to win customers I don't think any sat or cable company cares what you want to watch as long as your check clears and makes it to them on time
call me a pesamest


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

mtnsackett said:


> acualy I have never watched a voom channel. I guess i was saying this is childish, it is a PR war to win customers I don't think any sat or cable company cares what you want to watch as long as your check clears and makes it to them on time
> call me a pesamest


Never mind then...lol....but yeah your right


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

tomcrown1 said:


> How do I got all the RSN on dish can I subscribe to them according to DISH CSR I can not and have to live in the area the RSN is provided.


Subscribe to the Sports Pack. Subscribe to DishHD. The HD RSNs will appear in your guide and games will be available (subject to the usual SD blackout restrictions). In my area it means I get CSN Chicago, FSN Detroit, FSN Midwest and FSN Cincinnati (and 18 others). Blackout restrictions have allowed me to watch HD games on the four RSNs mentioned.



VeniceDre said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> > D* does not have those channels listed on their website.
> ...


Not listed on their All HD Channels page. How many markets have a CW / other network HD feed? D* still has HD LIL markets that don't have all four major networks.



ScoBuck said:


> DirecTV counts the DNS channels twice - not 3 times. They count those as 8 total channels in their statements.


See page linked above. They give a count of "over 70" not a precise 79 ... so they may or may not be counting the networks three times. But the "big four" network logos are on the chart and the footnote says "_In addition to the channel logos included here, the total channel count includes eight HD Pay Per View channels, and eight HD DNS channels._" In *addition* to what is shown ... and shown includes four LIL channels.

It certainly appears that they are counting networks three times ... although they don't need to to reach that magic "over 70" number that they are pushing.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> Subscribe to the Sports Pack. Subscribe to DishHD. The HD RSNs will appear in your guide and games will be available (subject to the usual SD blackout restrictions). In my area it means I get CSN Chicago, FSN Detroit, FSN Midwest and FSN Cincinnati (and 18 others). Blackout restrictions have allowed me to watch HD games on the four RSNs mentioned.
> 
> Not listed on their All HD Channels page. How many markets have a CW / other network HD feed? D* still has HD LIL markets that don't have all four major networks.
> 
> ...


what i saw was on each package you look at they tell you what HD channels you get with it...also the local HD channels..CW is there


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

texaswolf said:


> what i saw was on each package you look at they tell you what HD channels you get with it...also the local HD channels..CW is there


Non responsive. Your market may have CW HD but that seems to be more of an exception and many markets that have D*'s LIL HD don't even have all of the big four. That is why the question is "_How many markets have a CW / other network HD feed?_"

If D* isn't going to claim the network on their HD page I see no reason to further pad the counts.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

James Long said:


> Not listed on their All HD Channels page. How many markets have a CW / other network HD feed? D* still has HD LIL markets that don't have all four major networks.


Well I'm not suggesting you add it to their national count. I'm just pointing out on your list you have the grouping - "Local Network Affiliate HD - Select Markets"

By your own list you and your own wording - "Local & Select Markets" Well hey, CW HD is in select markets, so is MY Network TV HD. Just pointing it out.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> Non responsive. Your market may have CW HD but that seems to be more of an exception and many markets that have D*'s LIL HD don't even have all of the big four. That is why the question is "_How many markets have a CW / other network HD feed?_"
> 
> If D* isn't going to claim the network on their HD page I see no reason to further pad the counts.


Well...if my market or others have CW HD...then...i guess they offer CW HD...some markets may not have it...just as some people with E* have no local HD's....but D*...does...in fact...offer CW HD where available...like the channels themselves say...E* does not offer it..what so ever....spin it how you may...the fact is...many D* customers do have it. We don't even have a chance at it.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

When D* claims it on their HD page I'll put it on my page.

One market? Two? No answer to the question, eh?


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

James Long said:


> When D* claims it on their HD page I'll put it on my page.
> 
> One market? Two? No answer to the question, eh?


I don't know James..i don't study national numbers...like I said...put a poll up and see how many areas have it...again...you cant spin what E* doesn't offer...even if there are 10 people with D* that get it....it's more than E* has...because its not even an option with them....it's okay to admit it dude...they offer a little more right now..and may offer a little more by the end of the year due to E*'s technical issues...it happens...it will be ok..they'll come back eventually:feelbette


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

texaswolf said:


> easy rockstar ...i wasn't singling out E* when it came to Nationals...as you pointed out VOOM isn't only on E*...The channels i think should be cosidered are the one's i had mentioned that you will find on every..or most cable or sat provider...BTN isn't even there yet...but i didn't count them out...just the 4 alt. channels they have for saturday...E* is not the only one to carry them either.
> 
> I was not singling out any provider when it came to nationals i was talking about the channels not individual providers....don't be so quick to jump to E*s defense...geez


Go back and read your post again, the one I quoted where you very clearly said Voom should not count. Now it sounds like you are saying Voom should count. I'm not sure which side you are on now, my head is spinning from the jump.


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

davethestalker said:


> Any normal person would consider "national channels" to be common channels. Such as Comedy Central, TBS (remember that debacle?), TNT, ESPN, A&E, Speed, CNN, Fox News, NFL Network, FX, etc.
> 
> I am not putting down the Voom channels, I'm glad we have them. The truth is, they are "specialty" channels, not "national channels".


NFL Network, ESPN and Speed ARE NOT specialty channels?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

Fox News and CNN are not specialty channels?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I haven't watched FX in years....I think that's a specialty channel!!!!!!!!!!

Some people just aren't "normal", I guess.

The whole idea is quite funny, actually. :lol:


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## jrb531 (May 29, 2004)

davethestalker said:


> They finally put The Office in HD? I tuned in a few nights ago and it was Stretch-O-Vision and I have not been back since.
> 
> I'm gonna stick my neck out here, but to be brutaly honest, even Speed and G4 are not true "national channels". On cable, more often than not Speed is part of a "package", as is G4. Although some cable line ups may have them as part of a basic package not needing a digital decoder. While some cable providers (Charter) recently pulled G4 from is "no box needed line up" and now stuck it in a digital "package".
> 
> ...


Where are all these "rules" listed?

D* does not have Voom so it's not a national channel?

Now you say that Voom is not a Nationla Channel because it does not have a SD versions?

For crying out loud are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

IMHO (and it's just MY opinion) is that any channel that is capable of being broadcast from multiple distributors in the country is national.

If Voom was E* only and no other distributor could transmit it then yes it would not be national.

Now just because D* does not have it (yet some cable does) this makes it not national???

I see these silly rules changing by the minute.

All I friggin care about is how many channels in "true" HD that shows more than 50% HD content.

Once a channel shows more than 50% HD then it becomes a HD channel. Until then it's on my list as "HD capable"

LOL

So who's rules do we use.... yours, mine or someone elses LOL

-JB


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> You are a master of mixing up a person's words.





ScoBuck said:


> Learn to read, because I did NOT say NEVER - PLAIN AND SIMPLE. And then don't excuse away your spin by putting it back on me.





ScoBuck said:


> Why do you feel the need to put words in someones mouth?





ScoBuck said:


> I think you have blinders on...... No need to take it so personal though.


I feel really badly about how everyone here is picking on you....mixing your words....not reading your posts correctly....putting words in your mouth.

We all need to note however that, for all the comments made about your posts, you have never taken it personal.

Maybe we could do a fundraiser for you to help you feel better about all the picking that those people are doing on you. :nono2: :lol:

You folks at D* have channels that E* folks don't have. E* is happy that you're happy. It's going to be time before E* gets the channels that D* has. D* is happy that you're happy.

So....everyone is happy.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Wind_River said:


> I feel really badly about how everyone here is picking on you....mixing your words....not reading your posts correctly....putting words in your mouth.
> 
> We all need to note however that, for all the comments made about your posts, you have never taken it personal.
> 
> ...


Whatever - E* fanboys want to win this argument so badly they have to mis-quote people to make their points. And no - I don't take it personal, but I do want it corrected.


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## Wind_River (Feb 6, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Whatever - E* fanboys want to win this argument so badly they have to mis-quote people to make their points. And no - I don't take it personal, but I do want it corrected.


Whatever -


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> Whatever - E* fanboys want to win this argument so badly they have to mis-quote people to make their points. And no - I don't take it personal, but I do want it corrected.


What needs to be corrected? Is Speed showing HD?

Would it be fair to say that what you believe needs corrected is "opinion"?


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> Whatever - E* fanboys want to win this argument so badly they have to mis-quote people to make their points. And no - I don't take it personal, but I do want it corrected.


And you're what? The DirecTv police in charge of trolling the Dish Network forums to make sure no one is disparaging D*? While I might not totally understand the whole "fanboy" mentality when it comes to something like satellite tv, at the very least finding E* fanboys in a E* forum shouldn't be too surprising. Now finding a D* fanboy in an E* forum however makes even less sense to me. But whatever, like I said I don't get the whole fanboy mentality towards satellite companies anyway. The whole thing is rather silly, who really cares who happens to have the highest HD channel count at the moment anyway. For years it was E* who had the most, now D*does and i'm sure before too long E* will catch up or pass D* again and back and forth we go on and on. As long as we're all getting more HD channels why should we even care to argue who's "better" at any given moment in time?


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## klegg (Oct 31, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Whatever - E* fanboys want to win this argument so badly they have to mis-quote people to make their points. And no - I don't take it personal, but I do want it corrected.


Actually, in my case, YOU misread my post. So, I guess I can count myself as a non-E* fanboy?

I guess the part I don't get about both sides of all these arguments is...Do you guys not have anything better to do than argue about satellite TV? Sheesh, I come on here to get tips about my receiver or read new annoncements and have to read all this crapola...


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

HDMe said:


> Go back and read your post again, the one I quoted where you very clearly said Voom should not count. Now it sounds like you are saying Voom should count. I'm not sure which side you are on now, my head is spinning from the jump.


at...what part did it sound like I was "now" saying VOOM should count?

All i said was as you pointed out E* was not the only one to carry them...not at any point did I say...VOOM should count...I explained what nationals should be considered IMO....others have agreed at don't seem to have a hard time comprehending it as you do. read back...take your time this time...and read what channels i was referring to...the same channels if i were to turn on D*, E*, comcast, charter, ect....typical national stations that come on basic cable.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

Wind_River said:


> NFL Network, ESPN and Speed ARE NOT specialty channels?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!
> 
> Fox News and CNN are not specialty channels?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


ummm...no dude...they are not "specialty channels" Fox news and cnn and espn come on basic cable...so does FX.....

Because *you* haven't watched them in years, doesn't automatically make them a specialty channels....i never watch A&E...but i don't consider it "special"...it's just another channel i have ...that i don't watch.


> Now just because D* does not have it (yet some cable does) this makes it not national???


D* , Comcast, Charter, Time Warner...none of them carry it...now i didn't check the smaller companies...but the channels that you call "special" are offered on ALL of these....Nationally offered by a majority of providers....Now I like some channels on VOOM...but i don't consider them National...since unless you have HD...you never hear of it...the other national channe;s...you do.


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## koji68 (Jun 21, 2004)

texaswolf said:


> ummm...no dude...they are not "*specialty* channels" Fox news and cnn and espn come on basic cable...so does FX.....


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

Taco Lover said:


> I've got to say that my interest in coming to this site daily has gotten smaller since all I ever see are threads about the ad wars, the definition of a national HD channel, etc.


AMEN to that one brother, it has certainly diminished my entertainment level of visiting, I used to like to read most the threads here and contribute when possible. Now it seems like I just skim through this crap to see if anyone has made any kind of new point instead of re-hashing the same thing over and over. It's almost (but thankfully not) enough to make me go search the D* forums to see if this was going on over there for the past however many months before they started launching new HD channels.

Please bring us more newbies asking the same questions that have been answered a thousand times, I miss the innocence of it all!! :angel:


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

koji68 said:


> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


lol...good movie

I was just returning his emphasis on the word.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

bobukcat said:


> Please bring us more newbies asking the same questions that have been answered a thousand times, I miss the innocence of it all!! :angel:


I agree.

The argument is circular and no one is going to win. Time to tell everyone (including me) to shut up and get back to our regularly scheduled conversations.

Closed.


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