# ASK DBSTALK - Dish dropping OTA Guide? - Nope



## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Matt_Stevens @ AVSForum wrote:




> Any plans for any expansions in the 921 are scrapped. It is, in effect, a dead receiver. Once the software is stable, that will be it. The OTA Guide info promised for late 2004 is also scrapped. They are just dropping support for the receiver and moving on to the 922.





> This is not a rumor. Nuff said.




Anyone have more info on this?


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Duplicated many times...

I don't have any information yet. I don't believe this to be the case, but have no confirmation today either way.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

I think it is time for a reality check..... How much sense would it make to just abandon a potential money making product that has already been released after spending a couple of years worth of development expenses?? That is not good investment sense! 

The expense for implementing OTA guide info is negligable compared to what they have already spent on development. Gee wiz, give me the development tools for the 921, and I would be willing to write the code. It isn't that involved!

This product is not marketable without OTA guide data, nobody is going to want to buy it if it doesn't do it. In effect, it doesn't function as a real PVR without this capability. Charlie said that all of the PVRs were going to have name based recording by summer. How can the 921 do that if it can't even get the program names??


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

To back up my statement, look at this poll:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=26700

As of 2:10PST, 2/3rds of the existing 921 owners will drop the 921 and go to a different PVR, and 100% of those interested in buying a 921 will go elsewhere.

Personally, if this happens, I will call my local news station consumer advocate and have him make an issue of this on the air. My request will be for Dish to buy back my 921, and the dish farm on my roof so I can buy the Direct TV HDTV Tivo.

The bottom line is that Dish cannot afford to stop development on OTA guide data.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Will the 922 have OTA guide data??

Here is another question to ask yourself..... Doing the OTA guide info is primarily an infrastructure issue. The control link needs to collect all of the guide data, and send it up to the satellites, which then gets beamed down to the various receivers. If they are going to drop work on the 921 as far as guide data goes and implement it on the upcoming 922, where would the savings primarily be? If you are going to add the infrastructure for one receiver, why not use it for the second. 

It has to be guide data for every OTA capable receiver, or none. There isn't any reason to do just one because most of the work isn't in the receiver, it is in the infrastructure...

I am making a huge assumption here, that the guide data isn't being transmitted to the satellites yet. Does anyone know for sure??


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsanders said:


> I think it is time for a reality check..... How much sense would it make to just abandon a potential money making product that has already been released after spending a couple of years worth of development expenses?? That is not good investment sense!


And after all the idiotic decisions and releases over the last few years you still think they have good sense?  :nono2: 


jsanders said:


> Charlie said that all of the PVRs were going to have name based recording by summer. How can the 921 do that if it can't even get the program names??


And after all the idiotic decisions and releases over the last few years you still believe anything Charlie says?  :nono2:

Signed,
Disgusted customer


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsanders said:


> Will the 922 have OTA guide data??
> 
> Here is another question to ask yourself..... Doing the OTA guide info is primarily an infrastructure issue. The control link needs to collect all of the guide data, and send it up to the satellites, which then gets beamed down to the various receivers. If they are going to drop work on the 921 as far as guide data goes and implement it on the upcoming 922, where would the savings primarily be? If you are going to add the infrastructure for one receiver, why not use it for the second.
> 
> ...


You're assuming that OTA Guide data will come via the satellite stream. I'm thinking that they're going to try and grab it via PSIP, which has major issues, not the least of which being that not many stations are transmitting their guides.

As suggested elsewhere, the quick'n'easy way out is to use LiL guide data. I have no idea how guide data gets tied to a channel number, but it ain't brain surgery.

Eventually, maybe they can grab subchannel guide data somehow, but if E* had any brains, they'd just use what they've got for now - it'd make most users happy.

Of course, there's still the folks whose DTV isn't in a LiL area, but that's not many, and you could come 'close' jsut by using a generic network guide. Not great, but better than what's there now - which is NOTHING.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> You're assuming that OTA Guide data will come via the satellite stream. I'm thinking that they're going to try and grab it via PSIP, which has major issues, not the least of which being that not many stations are transmitting their guides.
> 
> Of course, there's still the folks whose DTV isn't in a LiL area, but that's not many, and you could come 'close' jsut by using a generic network guide. Not great, but better than what's there now - which is NOTHING.


And that is from the man that doesn't even get OTA signals!

You're right! I'm hoping the guide data will come from the satellite stream. Isn't that how Voom does it with their advanced programming guide? I imagine that DirectTV does it too, TiVo does it via the phone line. Dish needs to at least be competetive to retain and gain customers.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

SimpleSimon said:


> And after all the idiotic decisions and releases over the last few years you still think they have good sense?  :nono2:
> 
> And after all the idiotic decisions and releases over the last few years you still believe anything Charlie says?  :nono2:


Okay, You got me! :kickbutt:


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

jsanders said:


> And that is from the man that doesn't even get OTA signals!
> 
> You're right! I'm hoping the guide data will come from the satellite stream. Isn't that how Voom does it with their advanced programming guide? I imagine that DirectTV does it too, TiVo does it via the phone line. Dish needs to at least be competetive to retain and gain customers.


Yup, no OTA here, but I try to pay attention.


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## Kagato (Jul 1, 2002)

Mark, You heard anything yet? For a simple yes/no question it's been pretty quiet.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I do have official word - the plans for OTA guide data are still in progress and reasonably close to still on schedule. I talked today over lunch with 3 of the Dish people working on this issue. OTA guide data has definitely NOT been scrapped, and the 921 is definitely NOT a dead receiver on its way out. And no, I don't think I was being lied to.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

Mark,

I hope Dish bought your lunch.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I might get accused of being in Dish's "back pocket" and questioned on "where I stand" if I told you that they bought my $5.99 salad...  :lol:


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

Next time you have lunch with them let me know. I can meet you at McDonalds on Santa Fe Drive.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I do have official word - the plans for OTA guide data are still in progress and reasonably close to still on schedule. [.....] OTA guide data has definitely NOT been scrapped, and the 921 is definitely NOT a dead receiver on its way out. And no, I don't think I was being lied to.


That is great news! Are you allowed to tell us what the "schedule" is for that? I thought I had originally heard late spring, 2004.

I can live without firewire, but the 921 looses its usefulness real fast without OTA guide info. My poll also said that 70.5% of people would drop the 921 without guide info, and 90.5% of potential buyers would look elsewhere. Hard to believe that many people would get rid of their existing 921s, but I am sure there would be plenty of defectors. It is believable that potential buyers would pass it up though. I know I'm looking forward to it having guide info someday.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

You heard "late spring" from me, because that's what it was looking like back in December. Probably looking at sometime this summer or early fall if I have to guess - but that's all it is, a guess.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

I wonder how many months the debugging process will last if/when they actually do implement the OTA guide info.


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## metallicafreak (Jan 20, 2004)

kmcnamara said:


> I wonder how many months the debugging process will last if/when they actually do implement the OTA guide info.


Take a look at the 721 for a hint....for ever....


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

We appear to have some pretty definite opposition to what will happen to the 921 from various rumors being bandied about. These opposite reports are coming from non-documented sources except from Scott who has stated his source as Jim Defranco. This source has quashed the rumor about the 921 no longer being made.

At this point in time, I believe that many of the rumors about the demise of the 921 are the work of some disgruntled employees leaking malicious rumors to hurt the company for some unknown personal reason. Those distributing these rumors have other motives. Scott, I believe, just likes to deliver "news" whether it is rumor, fact, or fiction. Reminds me of a local TV news reporter who had a plaque over his desk that read: "Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, Ratings rule, Be first!"
Then we have people like Mark who like to filter what info we get from what he knows. Finally we have those who hate E* with a passion and will repeat all the bad stories they can to make the competition look better. I doubt these people are paid to deliver all the bad info and I really don't understand their motive. Maybe they just need a life outside of TV??? 
You have your choices, pick one! 
Back to enjoying the 921 and what it can do.


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Thanks for the info Mark. Keep up the good work.


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## John Quaglino (Aug 5, 2003)

Mark,

Here is my biggest problem with E* at the moment. They need to publicly come out say what the plans are for the 921. I've sold mine because of the uncertainty not because of technical problems. I'm more than willing to live with the few bugs that it has at this time and actually enjoy the unit. I've emailed various people at Echostar asking for reassurance as to what the future plans are for the product. To date, I have not gotten a response. I'd have kept the unit if they would have come out and said that "Our plan is to implement the OTA guide by <date>. Technically speaking, we know we can implement it and here is how we plan to do it. We ran into an unforseen technical problem with implementation of the Dishwire. We understand that this promised feature was important to many early purchasers. In response to the loss of this feature, we plan to do . . ."

I know, I'm dreaming. If they would do this, I would consider reinvesting in the product. I would make this decision based upon the value of the PROMISED FEATURES and costs versus the competition. At the moment, I am still an E* customer. If I don't get answers, I will go elsewhere.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Phil T said:


> Next time you have lunch with them let me know. I can meet you at McDonalds on Santa Fe Drive.


 Given Charlie's frugal ways, I think that Super Sizing may be OUT of the queston though.....


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## John Quaglino (Aug 5, 2003)

Well, I did hear from Dish today. However, nothing new to report. I still think they are trying to figure out what to do. They need to resolve this mess quickly.


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## John Quaglino (Aug 5, 2003)

Well, I got an email from Dish's Marc Lumpkin. Make of it what you will. I've made my decision. I have no faith in this company.

Hi John,

As an early adopter of new technologies, you are aware that DISH Network often equips satellite TV hardware with additional hardware features that may or may not be used in the future, including some outputs that DISH Network called DISH Wire ports. Although DISH Network did not offer the 921 with DISH Wire activated for any purpose, we were prepared in case we found a need to use them in the future. At this time, we do not have a future use for these ports. However, all the advertised features of the 921 are available for use today and customers are enjoying the ability to watch and record HD programming. I'm sorry to hear that you decided to sell it, but we hope you will consider other DISH Network products in the future. We appreciate your business and that you were one of the original customers purchasing our new DISH Player DVR 921.

Thanks,

Marc

Marc Lumpkin

Director of Corporate Communications

EchoStar Communications Corporation and DISH Network


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Well, at least it was a personal reply and not a form letter.


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## kmcnamara (Jan 30, 2004)

John Quaglino said:


> Hi John,
> 
> As an early adopter of new technologies, you are aware that DISH Network often equips satellite TV hardware with additional hardware features that may or may not be used in the future, including some outputs that DISH Network called DISH Wire ports. Although DISH Network did not offer the 921 with DISH Wire activated for any purpose, we were prepared in case we found a need to use them in the future. At this time, we do not have a future use for these ports. However, *all the advertised features of the 921 are available for use today* and customers are enjoying the ability to watch and record HD programming.


Weren't the Dishwire ports advertised?


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Blah , Blah , Blah, Blah ,

F**k you very much,

Mark Lumpkin

EchoStar Communincations......


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

> However, all the advertised features of the 921 are available for use today
> 
> Thanks,
> Marc
> ...


 :nono2: That's just not true - The Firewire was definately advertised:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=12467


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The original question has been answered. Moving to the Dish DVR discussion forum.


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## metallicafreak (Jan 20, 2004)

What a pile of crap! I email Mark after I read this and attached the MP3s that Scott provided from the Tech Chats talking about 921/DVHS dump and asked him to respond. I CC'd Charlie, CJ and a few others. Really burns me!
FREAK!


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

metallicafreak said:


> What a pile of crap! I email Mark after I read this and attached the MP3s that Scott provided from the Tech Chats talking about 921/DVHS dump and asked him to respond. I CC'd Charlie, CJ and a few others. Really burns me!
> FREAK!


I still say "OFFSHORING" the software was a big problem , there is only one reason to offshore, and that reason is money.
I fight daily huge corporate mandates to "offshore" X% of my small company's product.
Regardless of any other reason other than $.
I fight it by selling "value" that value the we bring being close, but the management are reviewed on $'s and they will be long gone up the corporate ladder before the mess they created needs fixing.
Charlie should be aware. Sending jobs overseas just to increase the stock value for his shareholders, whilst laying off your own people will result in quick profits and long term disaster.
Unfortunately as usual you get what you pay for. I've been following the HD Tivo thread Mild Impressions http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=26736
And so far not one bug report , Not one ! 
The 921 support forum 5,289 posts
And I estimate over 2000 of them were unique bug reports 2000!!!!!
Hmmmmmm I seem to have been on a rant!
Very cool!


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I suspect that there is more to the offshore development than $. They bought the company in England that did the development on the product. The company, Eldon Technology (http://www.eldon.co.uk) has a long history in digital set top box design. I suspect that they went there for the experience when they realized they didn't have enough staff in house for their growth rate. I didn't know this, but according to the site, Eldon did the design work on the 301 also (their first Dish product).


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

DonLandis said:


> Finally we have those who hate E* with a passion and will repeat all the bad stories they can to make the competition look better. I doubt these people are paid to deliver all the bad info and I really don't understand their motive.
> .


I guess I fit this description. But I NEVER knowlingly pass on bad info. I am very disappointed at the direction of the company, and have doubts about its future direction untill and unless management gets its act together. I have some decent contacts, and they arent happy either. Soon E will have risinmg churn, and clueless management will wonder why. While many of us can see things detoriating before our eyes.

E ihas become what I hated about cable, and thats sad.

BTW the bad news hasnt all surfaced yet. Thats all I can say. 

BTW theres NOT a dime in this one way or the other, I just feel bad for folks who buy stuff thats buggy, you shouldnt have to be a technician to watch tv


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Yada yada yada, etc.


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## pbrown (May 23, 2002)

This is all well and good for the 12 people that actually have a 921, but when will you actually be able to buy one again? Anyone?


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## Throwbot (Dec 24, 2003)

Richard King said:


> I suspect that there is more to the offshore development than $. They bought the company in England that did the development on the product. The company, Eldon Technology (http://www.eldon.co.uk) has a long history in digital set top box design. I suspect that they went there for the experience when they realized they didn't have enough staff in house for their growth rate. I didn't know this, but according to the site, Eldon did the design work on the 301 also (their first Dish product).


Richard like I said I was on a rant, and there is always more to the story, funny though I checked on the Eldo web site and look :new_Eyecr

"Eldon is ideally placed to assist companies to develop products for successful introduction into world markets."

Now come on that's kinda funny, don't you think?
Also even though I get hot about the 921 , really it isn't anger , I am sad. I wanted so bad the 921 to be "the" machine. It was a big disappointment. I would stick with echostar forever if they improved just 50% . I don't know why? But I feel that a lot of people here feel the same way.
Charlie must be / has to be; beaming subliminal messages over his birds!


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Charlie being a regular guy who made it big, well many kinda identify or bond with that. then we get upset when they forget where and what they came from

I miss the ask for it you got it days. they have been replaced by ..................!


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## Bogney (Jul 11, 2003)

pbrown said:


> This is all well and good for the 12 people that actually have a 921, but when will you actually be able to buy one again? Anyone?


I got the Email posted below from Dish Depot on Thursday.

Dear Dish Depot Members,

We will begin shipping 921s (again) tomorrow, 4/29/04. Please be patient, it will move slow and hopefully all preorders will be filled by the end of May. We will update regularly and will contact everyone individually before your unit ships.


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