# OTA and no guide data



## badwilly (Aug 18, 2006)

Hi all
I read the thread about if you don't subscribe to the locals you don't get guide data on the the unit. Here is what I found interesting.
I did a search for "charlie" in the search screen because I was looking for something. The search window came up with 6 hits. They were all for channel 12 at 1:00-2:00 pm each day. However, it said "digital service" so I was wondering why it picked those. I switched my TV back to its own tuner and brought up the TV Guide. It just so happens the time slot the VIP622 search window came up with for "charlie" were all for the show "Charlie Rose" on channel 12 at 1:00pm each day. 
So, apparently, the VIP622 knows what is on the "digital service" OTA channels, it just won't display them if you don't subscribe to local channels. It is getting the information from either the satellite or the PSIP of the channel. I think that is pretty poor of Dish. If I have OTA with good reception, why should I have to subscribe to locals just to get guide data it apparently already knows. I just switched from DirectV to Dish two weeks ago and this is the only bone I have with Dish. I didn't subscribe to locals with Directv and the guide data was still available for OTA channels. I think in this one area, Dish is not being fair to its customers.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

No PSIP. Interesting "bug".

IIRC: E* has to pay for EPG data. They recoup their cost by charging for local channels. It would be nice if they just charged somewhere else and allowed people to view the locals EPG for free.


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## badwilly (Aug 18, 2006)

They must read some of the PSIP because when it did the channel scan, it assigned the stations by their correct call letters. Like I said above, Directv didn't prevent the guide data from displaying. And I didn't subscribe to locals. Since I have been with Dish for a couple of weeks and never signed up for locals, how do you think the search window knows the guide data on the OTA channels. Interesting that the search window only displays "Digital Service", but still accomplished the search.



James Long said:


> No PSIP. Interesting "bug".
> 
> IIRC: E* has to pay for EPG data. They recoup their cost by charging for local channels. It would be nice if they just charged somewhere else and allowed people to view the locals EPG for free.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

They do not use PSIP for the EPG ... sorry if I didn't make that clear.
The EPG is on the satellite for those who subscribe to your locals.


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## badwilly (Aug 18, 2006)

Your reply was clear. I just didn't read it correctly. Thanks for the reply.




James Long said:


> They do not use PSIP for the EPG ... sorry if I didn't make that clear.
> The EPG is on the satellite for those who subscribe to your locals.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

badwilly said:


> Your reply was clear. I just didn't read it correctly. Thanks for the reply.


"You was clear"????:lol:


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## badwilly (Aug 18, 2006)

Are you saying my initial explanation was not clear as to what I discovered?



lujan said:


> "You was clear"????:lol:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I believe lujan was running a grammar check on the title of your last post.
("You was clear" instead of "you were clear" - although I've heard both in speech.)
I tend to overlook those things as long as the message is readable.


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## badwilly (Aug 18, 2006)

Thanks. After reviewing my initial post I saw some spelling errors as well. It was a long day. All and all, I like Dish better. I wanted the expanded HD offering and the mpeg4 DVR.



James Long said:


> I believe lujan was running a grammar check on the title of your last post.
> ("You was clear" instead of "you were clear" - although I've heard both in speech.)
> I tend to overlook those things as long as the message is readable.


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

James Long said:


> No PSIP. Interesting "bug".
> 
> IIRC: E* has to pay for EPG data. They recoup their cost by charging for local channels. It would be nice if they just charged somewhere else and allowed people to view the locals EPG for free.


To me, that is completely irrelevant. The FCC mandates that PSIP EPG data be transmitted with each digital (sub)channel. There is no reason that Dish couldn't enable the PSIP EPG data in the guide just like DirecTV does. The only reason they charge you is they want to make an extra buck off those of us who can (and should) receive the data for free!

Mike


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Does the FCC mandate that receiver manufacturers provide a PSIP guide?

You make this sound like a PSIP EPG is an on/off switch. Building a guide via PSIP requires individually tuning each channel and buffering what is found. Despite the mandate many OTA stations still don't push an accurate guide. Are you certain that is how D* provides their guide? Or do they provide EPG via satellite?

E* made a business decision to require locals before giving out EPG data. Right or wrong they have the right to make that decision. Don't make it sound like it is an "FCC mandate" when it isn't.


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## foghorn2 (Jun 18, 2006)

James Long said:


> Does the FCC mandate that receiver manufacturers provide a PSIP guide?
> 
> You make this sound like a PSIP EPG is an on/off switch. Building a guide via PSIP requires individually tuning each channel and buffering what is found. Despite the mandate many OTA stations still don't push an accurate guide. Are you certain that is how D* provides their guide? Or do they provide EPG via satellite?
> 
> E* made a business decision to require locals before giving out EPG data. Right or wrong they have the right to make that decision. Don't make it sound like it is an "FCC mandate" when it isn't.


PSIP for the locals here in Vegas are a joke. Its basically useless as it stands right now. Also you cannot view as matrix guide, it scans channel by channel. I'd like the guide for free too, but I understand that it takes alot of resources and money to provide locals in the first place. So I just use manual timers which works perfect.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Unless things have changed, my understanding is that D* does not use PSIP guide data in their EPG guide. Yes they do the mapping like E*, but they use their own guide data feed just like E*. As to requiring subbing to locals to get Guide info, well I am not sure what D* requires. 

At one point in time, I thought providing PSIP guide integration was a desirable feature. Now after reading numerious posts like foghorns and understanding the ramifications of adding such a feature I am no longer in favor of adding PSIP guide integration unless there was someway to have high confidence that accurate data could be provided. 

If accurate PSIP data cannot be provided across a wide spectrum in a reliable manner, the results would be user confusion and innaccurate recording. One huge benefit I see with using your own stream is control and an expected level of service. 

Personally I am not a big fan of tying guide data to local subbing, but I don't see the answer to this issue PSIP guide integration. OTA support from a national perspective has enough issues without adding PSIP integration into the pot.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

If you want to find out how bad PSIP can be take a look at AVSForums ... lots of complaints over there. Some stations can't even get their channel number right all of the time.

Probably the best solution is EPG via satellite. I wonder if E* could setup PSIP receivers to pull the EPG off of individual DT stations and combine them with the guide they send? It would still be a mess, and only right if the local station provided an extended guide (as required by the FCC) - but at least it would be a controlled mess at E* instead of an uncontrolled mess at every receiver.

That is a lot of hardware. Probably will be simpler once E* starts to carry ATSC stations instead of NTSC stations (in 2009). At least the receiver will be there. There are other improvements E* needs to do before messing with PSIP.

Having the guide data from other sources is the most accurate they can get and likely the easiest to integrate on to their system.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Ron Barry said:


> Unless things have changed, my understanding is that D* does not use PSIP guide data in their EPG guide. Yes they do the mapping like E*, but they use their own guide data feed just like E*.


You are 100 percent about that. DirecTV does NOT use PSIP data to get their EPG listings. They purchase thier listings from a vendor just like DISH does. The problem is that DISH does not supply the listings for ALL the digital stations (and substations).

It is just this simple: DISH needs to supply the listings for ALL the digital stations that a customer receives.


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

James Long said:


> You make this sound like a PSIP EPG is an on/off switch. Building a guide via PSIP requires individually tuning each channel and buffering what is found. Despite the mandate many OTA stations still don't push an accurate guide. Are you certain that is how D* provides their guide? Or do they provide EPG via satellite?


And you make it sound like getting PSIP EPG data in the guide is an impossible task. Far from it! I have two other standalone OTA receivers that are not connected to satellite that do it without a problem as does DirecTV. And yes, I know that DirecTV uses PSIP EPG in their guide on the HR10-250 because I confirmed that the data matched with my OTA receivers (and that data sometimes differs slightly from the satellite locals). They have data for every subchannel and sometimes there are as many as 7 or 8 subchannels and the HR10-250 could properly display the PSIP EPG data for every subchannel on every station. I never had a problem with it in over 2 years. On Dish, you get the wonderfully informative "Digital Service" on every channel except the sub-1 channel!

When I moved over to Dish, their "finagled" guide displays programs for a PBS channel on the ABC OTA channel. See the WMAR Baltimore thread. This continues for nearly three months before they can figure out the problem. Dish claims over and over that it is a WMAR problem, "try a different antenna", and other mindless answers. They only fix the problem when another poster here figures out which station they were improperly mapping and I forward the problem to the director of engineering at WMAR and mention the words "ABC" and "FCC" to Dish. Then they finally take us seriously and the problem appears to now be fixed.

I'm not saying that all problems can be avoided with PSIP EPG, but at least provide the data when it is available! Showing "Digital Service" 24 hours a day and stripping the PSIP EPG data on all but the sub-1 channel is not helpful, especially when we are forced to pay for local channels to get guide data that we know is there for free because it is mandated by the FCC. If Dish wants us to pay for the guide data from the satellite, fine. First of all, if you are going to charge for it, at least get it right. Second, for the people who don't want to pay to get guide data they already receive for free, display the PSIP EPG data for those people instead of the satellite guide (or nothing, which is what you get now). Better than nothing, and in my area at least, the PSIP EPG data is very good/accurate.

Mike


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

Bill R said:


> You are 100 percent about that. DirecTV does NOT use PSIP data to get their EPG listings. They purchase thier listings from a vendor just like DISH does. The problem is that DISH does not supply the listings for ALL the digital stations (and substations).
> 
> It is just this simple: DISH needs to supply the listings for ALL the digital stations that a customer receives.


Well, you are certainly right that they need to supply data for ALL substations. But I believe you are wrong that the HR10-250/DirecTV don't use PSIP in their guide! I've confirmed multiple times in the past that the guide data from my standalone (non-satellite) OTA receivers matched the guide from the HR10-250 on ALL subchannels. That alone isn't proof, but furthermore, disconnect the OTA antenna to the back of the HR10-250 and you STOP getting guide data for the OTA locals after a while. I know because I had mine disconnected for a while for some work I was doing and eventually all the OTA subchannels on the guide went to "regular schedule". To me, that proves they (or at least the HR10-250) use PSIP EPG in the guide. The channels still appeared in the guide but the guide had no data with the OTA antenna disconnected.

Mike


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## tammyandlee (Apr 22, 2002)

I think the HR10-250 uses guide data supplied by TitanTV. If you look on there web site they provide guide data for most sub channels.

As Dish is charging us for the local guide info they should at least get it right.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

First off, Just because removing the OTA results in guide data being removed does not equate to you get your guide Data from PSIP stream. Another possibility is that when the receiver does not sense an OTA signal for a channel it stops updating that slot in the EPG guide. Personally I think that is more likely the case than it gets it from the PSIP stream. It is possible that DirecTV gets the data for your particular channels from the same source as the OTA provider. This has been the case for a number of channels as has been reported in the past.

As for the PSIP guide.. Once again for your configuration it might seem accurate as you compare the 622 guide to an OTA receiver, but if you look at it as a general over the board solution, that is where this feature falls apart and that is where Dish needs to evaluate it from. Since Guide information is a vital part of the NBR system, mixing PSIP guide data with a known source is jsut a formula for a support nightmare and a nation level. PSIP guide support makes more sense for an HD receiver like the 211 or 811, but I don't think it is a good idea with a DVR and personally I don't want the feature because I see it creating more problems than it would solve.

As for sub channels, this is definitely a mixed bag. I personally get a lot of sub-channel information on my OTA for the SoCal area, but I also know that other areas don't get as much data provided. Not sure if this is a EPG source provider issue or a recevier mapping issue or both, but having been through a 921 and 811 and reading numerious posts regarding this issue it definitely is a mess. With all the DMAs and all the different use cases surrounding this feature, it definitely is the toughest part of the system to get accurate at a national level.

I agree with Bill that I really wish they did not tie PSIP guide information to subbing locals. A business decision I wish they would change, but that is what it is. However, with the addition of Dish locals in my area it makes the point moot because I want the ability to record three local streams at once.

Personally I see the ability of OTA support as an excellent feature and I see why they don't provide PSIP guide support. I think if do some research you will find that D* does not also. One quick check is to see if your OTA tuner guide information goes as far out as your D* receivers. It a lot of causes there is only a few days worth of information while the NBR receivers go out much further. (Well at least E* does).

Fully understand not wanting to pay for locals to get guide information and wanting to use the PSIP guide, but also you are not required to sub and can use manual timers.

Like James said.. It is a business decision Dish made. If it is not accaptable , I suggest sending opinions to the CEO office and it if is totally unacceptable there are other content providers available.

This thread might answer the where does D* get OTA guide info...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=642641#post642641


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## mchaney (Aug 17, 2006)

I don't see that thread as a definitive answer either. Seems like some people talking about what "appears" to be happening: no different than what we're doing here. I also doubt that Tribune carries all the data for the long list of local subchannels like digital weathernet, local radar feeds, PBS special programming, etc. all of which showed up on the HR10-250. I still think the HR10-250 picked up PSIP when the Tivo guide data was *not* available. Another clue is that the guide data for the OTA channels didn't run as far out as the DirecTV guide for the same satellite local. If they both came from the same place, why a discrepancy... on the same channel? The only difference is that one comes from the satellite and one terrestrial.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that DirectTV has, for years, been providing guide data for all subchannels OTA for free. I'm not about to change providers because I've done both, and yes there are only two reasonable alternatives available in my area. I'm much happier with E* than D* but that doesn't mean I have to be 100% satisfied or that I can't voice my opinion about something that is quite obviously lacking on the E* end: guide data for ALL subchannels. And... some assurance of *accurate* guide data since it took a handful of us three months to get the correct guide data for our local ABC station.

Mike


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

No problem voicing your opinion on this issue as long as it is done in a non-bashing form since we are in the 622 support area and so far that has been the case from my perspective. I also agree on D* being a moot point, though from all that I know there is no content provider DVR on the market using PSIP EPG info. 

A number of people have and personally I agree with you in terms of requiring to sub to locals to get EPG info. Definitely have a legit grip there. 

Oh.. on providing guide info. I believe On my 622 I get all three sub channel information for ABC including the local weather stuff in the guide if I recall and i get 2 out of 3 PBS channels of Guide info. I know others get a lot less so like I said milage may vary but this information is coming from Dish's EPG provider so I would expect D* would get similar levels of support and I am sure there are wholes in what D* gets also.


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## stinkmeat (Jan 30, 2007)

I just signed up for dish with locals. I gather from reading this thread that it's possible to use the antenna that's already up on my roof to get the local channels at no cost? Will the VIP622 accept that OTA signal? Is this a difficult thing to set up?

Thanks for any help...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Hello stinkmeat. and :welcome_s

Short answer is yes. There are some stickies on the top of the forum that you might want to look at and I suggest given the Reviews (622/942) a quick look. That should answer your questions..

As to free. Yes you can get OTA free, but to get the Guide Data you must sub to Dish locals. IF you don't you will not have any guide data and it makes it much harder to DVR your HD OTA locals.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

stinkmeat said:


> ...it's possible to use the antenna that's already up on my roof to get the local channels at no cost? Will the VIP622 accept that OTA signal?


 Sure it will "accept" the signals and you can watch what's on those channels. If you don't pay Dish for your locals though, it will be like watching TV with just your TV, that is, you don't know what's on a channel until you tune to it. Hehe, like the old days....  Obviously you won't be able to easily set timers to records shows in the future either, though you could use TitanTV, Zap2It, etc, etc for the information.


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## stinkmeat (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to call dish back today. I don't really mind the hassle of manually setting timers & it's well worth it to me to do so.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

stinkmeat said:


> I just signed up for dish with locals. I gather from reading this thread that it's possible to use the antenna that's already up on my roof to get the local channels at no cost? Will the VIP622 accept that OTA signal? Is this a difficult thing to set up?
> 
> Thanks for any help...


Nobody has mentioned that you can only use the antenna if it's a digital antenna. If it's the old analog type antenna, the 622 will not be able to use it because it won't scan in any non-digital stations.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

That is absolutely incorrect.

The antenna does not care nor know whether the signal is digital or analog. 'HDTV Antenna' is market speak to get a bit more money.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

The only problem I have with no OTA guide data is if I press record while watching an OTA program, it deletes all my timers for other OTA programs because the time on the digital data or whatever is like 24 hours or more. I have to go back in and restore them one by one.

I still will not pay $5 just to get the data.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

This "digital antenna" misnomer keeps creeping into things. Sometimes this is the fault of salespeople spreading misinformation to new customers, other times manufacturers of antennas are putting stuff on their packaging to mislead customers.

An antenna is an antenna is an antenna. There are different types of antenna for different frequencies of signals (like VHF or UHF for instance) and directional vs non (or omni) directional... but there is no such thing as a "digital antenna" that is anything different from an "analog" antenna. Antennae are antennae.


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## Zippy (Jan 14, 2007)

badwilly said:


> Hi all
> I read the thread about if you don't subscribe to the locals you don't get guide data on the the unit. Here is what I found interesting.
> I did a search for "charlie" in the search screen because I was looking for something. The search window came up with 6 hits. They were all for channel 12 at 1:00-2:00 pm each day. However, it said "digital service" so I was wondering why it picked those. I switched my TV back to its own tuner and brought up the TV Guide. It just so happens the time slot the VIP622 search window came up with for "charlie" were all for the show "Charlie Rose" on channel 12 at 1:00pm each day.
> So, apparently, the VIP622 knows what is on the "digital service" OTA channels, it just won't display them if you don't subscribe to local channels. It is getting the information from either the satellite or the PSIP of the channel. I think that is pretty poor of Dish. If I have OTA with good reception, why should I have to subscribe to locals just to get guide data it apparently already knows. I just switched from DirectV to Dish two weeks ago and this is the only bone I have with Dish. I didn't subscribe to locals with Directv and the guide data was still available for OTA channels. I think in this one area, Dish is not being fair to its customers.


The sad thing is this used to work. E* shut it off. It drives my parents crazy. Its something Charlie should think about because its causing them to rethink their service with E*. I agree with their argument - "We used to have it, we got used to it, now we are just annoyed without it".

I'm tired of getting calls from them asking me to do something about it. I've called E* so many times, that whatever costs they have to pay the programmers for this information they are loosing in CSR costs. Oh, BTW. This answer you have above is the last answer I got from a CSR, but everytime I call I get a different answer. My favorite to date was the one who told me that they updated the software on the receiver and OTA guide was no longer supported...

By the way for those of you who are annoyed by this, DirecTV offers this for free. I'm trying to talk my parents into switching. You should consider it too. Put E* out of business. If they loose enough customers, they'll start thinking about their customer base instead of their cost structure.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Zippy said:


> By the way for those of you who are annoyed by this, DirecTV offers this for free.


No they don't. They REQUIRE all customers in areas with locals to subscribe to their locals. E* gives you a choice, plus a lower price w/locals than D* is offering on equivilent packages.

But it is free in "you are forced to pay for it as part of your base package" sense.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

lujan said:


> Nobody has mentioned that you can only use the antenna if it's a digital antenna. If it's the old analog type antenna, the 622 will not be able to use it because it won't scan in any non-digital stations.


 660 posts, a member for almost 3 years, and you are spreading misinformation like that ??


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Hall said:


> 660 posts, a member for almost 3 years, and you are spreading misinformation like that ??


I seriously believed that there was a difference between analog and digital antennas because that's what I was told. When you become perfect, then you can tell me off, ok?


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## Larry R (Feb 2, 2007)

***HELP***

I have the 622 and I'm having problems with my OTA's. I was using a TERK indoor and was able to pull in 5 local channels. The signal strength was about 65 on most of them, so I decided to upgrade to a Winegard GS-2200. The signal strength on the channels I have now is about about 15 points higher, so I figured that was a step in the right direction. I re-ran the scan, and it isn't picking up any of the channels now, including the 5 I have stored.

I called DISH Network (twice now) and I gave them the error code I get when I have my antenna plugged in "invalid dishpro switch detected Code 15,A2" They can't figure out what it means. I unplug it, and it goes away. Is it a cabling issue or is there something wrong with my receiver?

I have a Superbowl party on Sunday, I'd sure like to know where this is going wrong...


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

Did you really mean to say your OTA channels have a signal strength of 15? if so, that's not strong enough. If you intended to say they were 15 points higher than the indoor antenna that should be an improvement. I don't know what the error message means but check to see if there is a Help button that gives you more information. Also make sure your cables are good and you connected to the right port on the back of the 622. I have never seen error messages after connecting an OTA antenna.


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## Larry R (Feb 2, 2007)

yeah it is 15 points higher...

Dish has decided that it is a bad receiver, and shipping me a new one...


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

Well, welcome to the forum and welcome to the 622 replacement club. :lol:


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## Zippy (Jan 14, 2007)

lujan said:


> Nobody has mentioned that you can only use the antenna if it's a digital antenna. If it's the old analog type antenna, the 622 will not be able to use it because it won't scan in any non-digital stations.


They have an OTA hooked up and still the guide just says "Digital Service".


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

lujan said:


> I seriously believed that there was a difference between analog and digital antennas because that's what I was told.


 Believing something that's wrong is one thing. Research, reading, learning can tell you what's right and wrong and then you can help people much better.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Larry R said:


> yeah it is 15 points higher...
> 
> Dish has decided that it is a bad receiver, and shipping me a new one...


Have you checked to make sure that when you were moving to the new antenna you did not make a mistake in the wiring. Also, I would check my connections to. It is possible that you might have wiggle something lose while you hooked up your new antenna.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

lujan said:


> I seriously believed that there was a difference between analog and digital antennas because that's what I was told.


I don't know who told you that but they are wrong. There are some people here that are engineers (as I am) and believe us there is no such thing as a "digital antenna". I am using the same antenna on my 622 (a outdoor VHF/UHF antenna) that I had on my analog TV over 5 years ago. All my OTA digital channels are fine (some show a signal strength of 100). I would go back to your "source" and clue them in.


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## audiomaster (Jun 24, 2004)

Bill R said:


> I don't know who told you that but they are wrong. There are some people here that are engineers (as I am) and believe us there is no such thing as a "digital antenna". I am using the same antenna on my 622 (a outdoor VHF/UHF antenna) that I had on my analog TV over 5 years ago. All my OTA digital channels are fine (some show a signal strength of 100). I would go back to your "source" and clue them in.


I think this got started because most digital TV is in the UHF band, so if you had an old VHF antenna or a combo VHF/UHF that was not particularly good in the UHF band, you would have problems. So retailers started selling UHF units as "digital" antennas. The problem is that there are a few stations down in the upper VHF band and you may not get them with one of the "digital" antennas.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

The NTSC is on one band and the ATSC is on the other argument works in some markets. Here they are all UHF, NTSC and ATSC. In a neigboring market they were almost all UHF NTSC and one station got a VHF ATSC channel (and promtly filed with the FCC to get a UHF channel to stay with it's competition). The other neigboring markets had a mix on NTSC and continues to be mixed on ATSC.

The only other reason (other than a con job) to have "HD ready" or "digital" antennas is quality. Some old antennas may have done well with NTSC stations but need to be better to pick up ATSC, especially those operating under STA. A little static on a NTSC signal is somewhat livable --- no so much on an ATSC signal when the picture pixels and drops out (and the TV is likely a display that shows more imperfections). So while a 'digital' antenna is generally to be mocked, a better antenna may be needed to cleanly receive digital stations.

YMMV. I have one station that I lose because the signal is too strong! I have not quite got to the level of adding adjustable tunable notches to my antenna to kill the strong signals and allow the weak through.


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## langlin (Apr 8, 2005)

This may have already been pointed out but it is impossible to transmit a "digital" signal, all transmssion are analog with a digital signal modulated on it. Since these are in the same freqency band the receive antenna are the same as before. Even at the station end it is the same, a TV transmitter is nothing but a linear amplifier and the only changes were to tighten certain phase distortion specs.


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