# Best tools for installer



## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

hi im about to go be certified this week with the sbca and then a job with a installing company. what i would like to know is what tools would any of you who are installers recomend to me for doing installs? i dont have alot of money to start so i really need something cheap or used even till i get a few installs and some money in my pocket. And i dont have a pickup so what would you recomned for a ladder that would fit in a car? the seats do fold down so that wouls help some i would think.
thank you


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I use a spectrum analyzer that I have had since the c-band days, but they can be rather expensive. I am sure someone else here will have some kind of a squaker to recommend. As for the ladder, once again to get what you need is going to cost some bucks. I use a Little Giant ladder that opens to 16', but collapses to 4'. You can sometimes catch them being advertized on late night infomercials now. They used to only be sold at trade shows back when I bought mine. A few stores carry them now also. I am able to carry it on the roof rack on my Hyundai Santa Fe. For a while I even carried it in the hatch of a Chrysler Conquest, a Porche like sports car. I looked real funny doing installs out of that thing. I even had a trailer for it for doing c-band installs. You don't need a full size van for installs anymore. Good luck


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

There's several signal meters that will work for around $70.

The collapsable ladders are great - $100 or so at a home supply store, then get a stepladder when you can afford it.

You're gonna need a coax stripper. Low-end @ $12 works just fine. As for connectors, compression tools are the only way to go - with luck, $40.

Finally, standard hand tools - and a belt. I use a suspenders-type with pouches on both sides & built-in back support. It's heavy, but I'm a big guy.

Cordless drill/screwdriver is imperative. You won't last a day without it.

You need a sight-angle gauge and a compass to check positioning.

Good luck! Don't forget - grounding is imperative!


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## MikeSoltis (Aug 1, 2003)

Simon,
Agree with you on the compression crimper tool, but expect to pay upwards of $60 for a decent set. You can also get the tool and dies separately to allow you to have more dies for different types of connectors, although for typical installs you wouldn't need a lot of variety.
You can get those ladders at Lowe's or Home Depot, the smaller Werner is about $100, then they have a bigger one for $150.
I got the smaller one for around the house, and it collapses small enough to fit in the back seat of a car.
Kind of ironic how the label says "Werner America's Best Ladder" at the top and "Made in China" at the bottom.
Still a handy ladder, though.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

post hole digger

From this knowledgeable satellite subscriber's perspective, 
other important tools every installer needs, and I'm sure you 
already possess...

- a friendly demeanor
- a positive attitude
- patience with customers
- punctuality, efficiency & neat work
- personal grooming & good hygiene
- respect for the customer's home & property

Installing is a technical job, but it's a people business. Many
other people up the line depend on the quality of the job you
do. Inside the home, make sure your shoes are clean when
you enter a customer's home. Pick up as you go, and take
all debris when you leave. Don't expect tips, but do show
appreciation when a gratuity is offered. 

Finally, take pride in a job well done. You are likely the only
person in the satellite industry your customer will ever meet.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

what do you mean grounding is imperative? isnt a signal finder and the spectrum analizer close to the same thing or am i wrong? how strong is this ladder that folds to 4' because im not a small guy im 6'1 and 290 or so. maybe i start doing this i will lose some of that weight


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Wow!! I THINK the Little Giant that I described is rated to 300 pounds, although it may be 250. None of the cheaper ladders are rated that high. I am about 160 soaking wet, so I have no problem with the LG. I bought it because it has a wide base that adds to stability and because in the A frame mode it can be used by two people at the same time, one on each side. This was very handy for placing a 10' c-band dish on long poles.


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## Dan Paquette (Jun 9, 2004)

You may want to consider the *Align-A-Sight * tool. It allows you to set the Azimuth, Elevation, and Skew coordinates and then look through it's viewfinder to verify a clear line of site. Works great to determine the best location before drilling any holes. Also good for checking the surrounding area to get an idea of how much clearance you have from trees that may grow into the signal path. You can get more information at www.alignasite.com.

Installers would not need the dish attachment only the presighting unit. I will give a 15% discount to anyone who mentions dbstalk when ordering.


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## FritzM (Feb 2, 2004)

And check out the pawn shops for tools.


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## urnote96 (Jun 22, 2004)

Richard King said:


> I use a spectrum analyzer that I have had since the c-band days, but they can be rather expensive. I am sure someone else here will have some kind of a squaker to recommend. As for the ladder, once again to get what you need is going to cost some bucks. I use a Little Giant ladder that opens to 16', but collapses to 4'. You can sometimes catch them being advertized on late night infomercials now. They used to only be sold at trade shows back when I bought mine. A few stores carry them now also. I am able to carry it on the roof rack on my Hyundai Santa Fe. For a while I even carried it in the hatch of a Chrysler Conquest, a Porche like sports car. I looked real funny doing installs out of that thing. I even had a trailer for it for doing c-band installs. You don't need a full size van for installs anymore. Good luck


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._2/002-8303845-8840000?v=glance&s=hi&n=507846

$299.99 but with a $25 coupon


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## PSB (Oct 4, 2002)

The best thing a new installer can do is go to.....

www.dbsinstallsupport.com and get advice from people who work in the field, a few hours reading could save years of experience, well it can only help!


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

MikeSoltis said:


> Simon, Agree with you on the compression crimper tool, but expect to pay upwards of $60 for a decent set. You can also get the tool and dies separately to allow you to have more dies for different types of connectors, although for typical installs you wouldn't need a lot of variety. ...


We might be talking about different tools. I won't use a hex die crimper which is what I think you're talking about. I use compression fittings which squeeze linearly with the axis of the cable as opposed to a crimper which applies pressure perpendcular to the cable, and are nowhere near as strong.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

ibooksrule said:


> what do you mean grounding is imperative?...


1. No offense, but if you have to ask, you apparently have some critical gaps in your training.



> isnt a signal finder and the spectrum analizer close to the same thing or am i wrong?...


2. See #1 above.


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

Right now the best deal on a ladder is the Werner 22ft 300lb rated Type 1A clone selling for $199 at Lowes. Until July 11, there is a special deal with a free mail in rebate for a $25 gift card. There is also a neat and useful set of scaffolding brackets with case included.

Home Depot sells a similar ladder at the same price as the Gorilla Brand, but there is no rebate.

I have a Little Giant 22ft Type 1, 250lb rated ladder that I paid $350 for, before Little Giant's patents expired. The only good thing is that it's about 5 pounds lighter than the 1A.

You can get to a roof on a second floor slab foundation house with the 22ft ladder.

The best step ladder is the $39 Gorilla four step at Home Depot. It folds to 2" thick and is light weight aluminum.

I know that aluminum ladders are not allowed for electricians by OSHA, but they are OK for satellite and low voltage work. Just stay away from power lines and wear rubber soled shoes.

*For anyone who is interested, I am a retired engineer and have done extensive research into coaxial compression connectors and tools. Send me an IM, if you are interested. I have a supply of used tools.*


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

Nick said:


> post hole digger


The best one is called a Seymour Iwan Auger.

It digs a 4" hole straight down with vertical sides. I can get four installs with one bag of concrete, as opposed to one with a regular post hole digger that makes ragged and large holes.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

FritzM said:


> And check out the pawn shops for tools.


Be careful with pawn shops - always know the price for a NEW tool before walking in - many pawn shops are not bargains at all.


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

Yeah,

I know the pawn shops. I deal in used tools and price them accordingly, with a good discount, when compared to a new tool. A colleague of mine came by and got a compression crimper that was used only a couple of times for $35, when an elctronic store down the street wanted $69.99 plus tax for the same thing.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

i have found out that installers dont get cable or ground blocks or anything furnished that not only do we have to provide tools but you must provide all the other stuff as well. Is this true in all situations or just some companies?
thanks


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

Sounds like you are going to be a sub-contractor. Some companies have employees, and others have sub-contractors.

If you supply the tools, you are an independent sub-contractor.

If the dealer does, you are an employee. Employees are paid either by piece work or by the hour. 

As a subcontractor, you have to buy your own supplied or purchase them from the dealer at their rate. If the dealer carries supplies, they will sell it to you at either cost or at a markup. 

I've always found it more advantageous to sercure my own supplies, but that means I have to carry an inventory. Others can't be bothered, but they pay for it in higher costs.

It takes an investment of time and money to be in this business. You have to acquire a supply of coax, splitters, tools connectors, multiswitches, lnbs and dishes. 

I always keep a variety of spares in the truck, because going back to the shop, the dealer or the warehouse to get a replacement for a doa component can be really costly, especially if the job is 50 miles away. Not all local dealers have all of the components and supplies that you might need. I have a working relationship with quite a few dealers in my area and often supply them with parts that I have in stock, when they have an urgent need for them. In return, they do the same for me. A customer will seldom wait a week for a special repair job. They will go to the competition.

Since I am independent, they also refer a lot of jobs to me that they do not want. I get a lot of emergency calls referred to me.

It's all part of doing business.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

where do you get extra dishes and lnbs and so forth? i figured you couldnt get that stuff unless it was for an installation. Do you have to buy your switches as well? Do you guys who are installers make any money in this business? i need to know one thing what are you supposed to ground the satellite too? what do i have to look for


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

That's part of learning this business. To be successful, you have to be a little more than one who does installs for hire. This reminds me of the relationship of the mill worker who worked for a mill town after the Civil War. You are at the company that you work for, the dealer who extends credit to you for supplies, and the one who controls what you can make.

Since this is not the dealer website, I prefer not to reveal more than a few of the trade secrets of the dealer structure, the installer structure, and my sources for supplies.

I advise you to develop a relationship with a dealer and independent installer on your own. If you are really serious about this business, you must do more than just work for a dealer, either as a contractor or as an employee, just installing basic fulfillment installs.


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## Van (May 4, 2004)

Expect to spend around $1,000. for most of the tools that you will need.

3 ladders: standard step ladder $ 25, 16 - 20 foot ladder like the little giant $400, 28 ft ladder $150,
optional 40ft ladder $250 for 3 story homes ( if you want the money then you will get the job done regardless of the building height)

Signal meter: you get what you pay for, spend $120 on a channel master, spec analyzers are high end and cost more than most used cars.

suspender tool belt: can be bought for $35 dollars at Mans Do It Best hardware stores.

Wrenches: standard and metric sets, you'll need them for the 20 inch dish's and the larger 2ft - 3ft dish's, $20 - $100 depending on wich you go with, I'd get the ones with a life time warranty and yes they are more costly.

Multi tip screw driver: 2 sizes for each bit should be about $10

Carpenters magnetic level: get the small hand held, should be around $15

box cutter: $3

coax stripper: theres a nice one that can be had for $13, its sold at home depot, lowes, and radioshack. The device has three settings for coax types and one for ground wire, the blades are adjustable.

fitting tool( IE compression tool ): DO NOT USE HEX CRIMPER, hex fittings are well known to not mantain a secure grip on the coax and they allow water into the connections. Try getting digicon compression tool $50 and fittings (100 count ) $40 a bag single, best to buy in bulk.

Dikes or side cutters: $10 for a good pair with insulated handles, also add line mans pliers to this for another $15.

Rachet set: $50 for a good set of standard 3/8 sockets,

Can Wrench: $15, its a very useful tool suitable for multiple applications on any installation and or service call.

Claw hammer: $30 for a good one.

Drywall saw: $15 as you will need it for wall fishing

Fish tape: $35 for wall fishing and other uses for pulling coax.

Wet noodle: $15

Compas: $12 - $200, really a basic model is all you will need in most instances but suunto has a compas with a built in range and site finder thats incredibly acurate, I used one for 2 weeks when I was on a road trip to help another company out and as long as I had my specs set on the dish's I was hitting the sats dead on. The suunto was $200.

Drills: I use a dewalt 14.4 cordless 3 speed with hammer drill mode, runs about $300, I also have a dewalt corded hammer drill that runs about $350, add to this paddle/spade bits for $25, 3/8x18x1/2 wood and masonary bits, $10 each to $45, and expect to replace them on a regular basis.

pocker toner: complete kit runs about $100, used to tone out clean coax runs, it'll tell you if theres a brake or a splitter in the line somewhere.

Pens: $4 for a gross of 100 from any office store,

Clipboard: $1.50 to $20 depending on wether you want a basic model or one that allows you to store papers inside it.

Maps: $3.95 - $30 with simple fold outs being cheap and quality metro books and or whole state county books being the most, the metro books and the county by bounty books are the best, you'll have to replace them every 2 years as new roads and subdivisions are added.

Truck/van: you can go beater but then its an issue of image so anything that sells for under $2,000 is a gheto cruiser, try looking at fleet companies for a good used cargo van or mid sized pickup, 

Shelves: $100 - $4,000 These go into the van and allow you to stow a ton of equipment and supplies, low end you make, high end you buy from a place like Adrian Steele.

Ladder rack: $100 - $1,500 low end you make, high end you buy,

Insurance: auto as well as personal and bonded, shop around.

clothing: Get some decent clothes for all 4 seasons, you'll want work boots for year round and some good winter work boots, coats, jackets, shirts, pants, shorts, you might want to consider Dickies work clothes as theyre pretty durable and last a long time.

All in all your gonna have some expenses to deal with that go above and beyond the initial tools your asking about. Go cheap all the way if you want but you will be replacing cheap stuff pretty quickly as cheap stuff brakes fast. If your going solo as a contract installer you'll have to pay your own taxes as well so look into an accountant if your not good with tax stuff. If you dont want all this hassle then consider working for a large company that does installations or even going to work for Dish network as they have theyre own installations department in most majour cities.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

What Van says is definitely on the high end. You CAN get started for MUCH less, but you're gonna get slowed down on some of the installs, and might have to turn down a job that you don't have the tools for. Don't worry about it. When it happens, politely apologize to the customer, being honest that you're just getting started and don't have all your tools yet. Most people will understand. Those that don't are just @$$holes, so warn your buddy that's gonna pick up the job from you.


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## Van (May 4, 2004)

Mmmmm, I wouldnt say the high end, maybe mid range considering that the spec analyzer can run on average of $2,000 - $3,000 from what Ive seen.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Spectrum analyzer is a total waste of money for an installer.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

My Blonder Tongue Spec analyzer cost me about $1500 or so when I got it back in about 1993 or so. It has served me well since after going through two of the cheaper spec analyzers out there.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

So, Richard, tell me what it's needed for? I've never needed one for an install.

I could see it's use on some difficult troubleshooting jobs, but that's about it.

And it takes a LOT of repair jobs to make up for the cost. A lot cheaper to just replace the whole install (which I've also never had to do).

Lessee. Troubleshooting 101. Swap hardware around until problem moves. If problem doesn't move, try throwing a temporary cable run at it. If that doesn't find it, call Richard - he's got a Spectrum Analyzer.


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## samrs (May 30, 2004)

*i have found out that installers dont get cable or ground blocks or anything furnished that not only do we have to provide tools but you must provide all the other stuff as well. Is this true in all situations or just some companies?*

The best advice I have seen so far was from Nick, IMHO.  It sounds like you don't know what your getting into, just my opinion. I started installing for a DTV home service provider. I rode for two weeks with a friend to learn where to drill holes. You don't want to damage a persons home. I had a lot of experience with Army Satellite Equipment. A 7/16th inch wrench, 28ft ladder, dewalt drill and channel master high impact signal meter is all you need to install any satellite system. Some other tools make it easier but a'int necessary. I'd reccommend you try to get a job with a DTV home service provider. You can decided if it's for you before you spend money on tools an get technical, like the other fools around here.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> So, Richard, tell me what it's needed for? I've never needed one for an install.


Today, doing just dbs, it would probably be hard to justify, but I bought it back when I was doing c-band installs. Since I had it anyway, I continue to use it and it works quite well. It does speed the process a bit, as I am usually able to nail down the satellite in under a minute. If the person above is going to get into commercial installs or repairs an SA is usually a requirement. Commercial repairs can be a GREAT sideline to DBS and I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking of getting into the business.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Richard: OK - thought we were probably on the same page.


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## Van (May 4, 2004)

samrs said:


> *i have found out that installers dont get cable or ground blocks or anything furnished that not only do we have to provide tools but you must provide all the other stuff as well. Is this true in all situations or just some companies?*
> 
> The best advice I have seen so far was from Nick, IMHO.  It sounds like you don't know what your getting into, just my opinion. I started installing for a DTV home service provider. I rode for two weeks with a friend to learn where to drill holes. You don't want to damage a persons home. I had a lot of experience with Army Satellite Equipment. A 7/16th inch wrench, 28ft ladder, dewalt drill and channel master high impact signal meter is all you need to install any satellite system. Some other tools make it easier but a'int necessary. I'd reccommend you try to get a job with a DTV home service provider. You can decided if it's for you before you spend money on tools an get technical, like the other fools around here.


To the bold text its not always that way, just depends on wether your working for a cheap ******* or not.

As to your recommendation of 4 tools then obviously your the kind of sub contractor who's work Im always having to fix ( hack work ) wich unfortunately tends to be the norm anymore these days. All of the equipment I listed ( forgot a flash light ) may not be required on every job but will be used at one time or another and in many cases is needed to do a clean quality install where theres no wires hanging or wires coming up through holes in the floors. Taking advice from the person I have in quotes is a bad idea in my opinion and will just lead you down a short path to unemployment.


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

who do you contact about working for a dtv home installer or working for dish network? i think that would be the better way to go to start since i do not have money to be buying all these tools and i have to agree that you do not need $1000 in tools to do the job the ladder is impertive and a drill and a few wrenches no ned in having a whole set every dbs i have seen has the same size fittings and all the dishes have the same size bolts and i have installed a few before plus i have always done my own becuase every time i have someone come out they mess it up. The voom guy especcialy tells me things like i need this and no this wont work and then i tell him whatever leave the equiptment and ill do it and then i showed him once how to do it right and then he still clamied i was just lucky. In this area of where i wil be installing i wont need to do a poll mount we dont use super dishes and i have talked to a couple installers who said that even if the job says its a poll mount when they get out they can usually almost always mount it some other way. And not many people have dishes on thier roofs around here. There are a few downtown but even those arnt many. I have the wrench and ratchet set allready and a corless screwdriver and then id need a drill and the ladder. I know as an independnet contracter you can make some good money but i may have to start out working as an employee of dish or directv doing installs first till i get some money saved up. So if someone knows who i can contact id appreactite it. thanks


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## waydwolf (Feb 2, 2003)

Oh boy... another pigeon...

From your posts I'd say you've probably been sold on this as making a $1000 or more a week every time. And probably not remotely educated on the difference between contractor and employee.

First off, as a contractor, you need to understand your state's labor laws. I recommend going to them and asking for any information packets they may have. In general, the other guy cannot tell you everything w/regard to what to do, where to do it, how to do it, etc. There is no such thing as a contract employee. You are one or you are the other and when you are a contractor, you have certain rights just as when you are an employee.

Second, as a contractor, you need to understand your state and the federal tax laws. Quarterly withholding is not to be ignored. You also need to know that in general, anything which you buy sales tax free wholesale which is used as a supply by you and not charged sales tax on to the customer must be taxed and paid for by you. IOW, if you buy something you normally would pay sales tax on retail, and use it during your work, you have to pay sales tax on it to the state. Check with your state tax authority on this for the proper picture. Also check with your local town w/regard to taxes on properties when used for full or partial business use.

Third, trucks or vans are the appropriate vehicles, a large SUV at the minimum. Nothing says INCOMPETENCE and CHEAPNESS like a car with a ladder strapped to it. There are many places which can hook you up with a used cargo van with rack for a decent price and guaranteed financing these days. If you think it enough to use a car with a ladder strapped to it, wait till the customers start complaining as soon as you leave these things do come back to haunt you.

Fourth, you should NEVER EVER have any ladder less than a twenty-eight foot FIBERGLASS ladder MINIMUM. I recommend a Werner Type IAA 375lb. rating one unless you're a walking stick. With supplies, you can rapidly bump your weight up until at full extension and proper angle you might stress it a bit much.

Fifth, aerial electrical drops make FIBERGLASS and NOT aluminum mandatory. If you don't think so, ask why cable and telephone techs ONLY use fiberglass. You might think you're fine after doing a hundred without incident but it will be that ONE ACCIDENTAL TOUCH that ends your lucky streak.

Sixth, get a state tax resale license or business license as needed to get wholesale accounts with Perfect 10, Applied Telecom, etc. You will inevitably be ripped off buying retail or through your company. Dual ground blocks should be about $0.35 a piece, not $1. I've seen shops charge $70 a roll for single cable. It should be under $50 a roll.

Seventh, I strongly recommend a dual peaking meter to get two LNB positions maxed at once. Doing it one at a time is guaranteed to cause max signal on one and little to none on the other constantly.

Eighth, you should never use hex crimps and only use compression. Thomas & Betts SnapNFit are the most common but there's connectors from Holland, PPC, Gilbert, etc. Perfect 10 and Applied Telecom carry these for just two.

Ninth, NEVER EVER use uninsulated staples ANYWHERE and only insulated staples such as those with the Arrow T-59 or the Telecrafter in unfinished basements. Use aluminum C-clips and screws outside.

Tenth, #10 copper or #8 aluminum cabling is mandatory per the NEC and local codes for grounding, and ALL coax lines AS WELL AS the dish MUST be grounded to UTILITY GROUND. Where the electrical system is grounded is where YOU must ground. NEVER EVER to a stand-alone ground rod of any sort, never to some pipe you find, much less gas or oil. Find the utility panel's ground strap and go where it is going. This one if not done right can KILL YOUR CUSTOMERS through fire and/or electrocution.

Good luck. More if I can think of it. *Don't shrug off the business licensing and tax issues!*


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

I've done quite a few fulfillment installs for companies who like to supply thier components to their sub-contractor installlers. I agree on the hole with Waydwolf. They stopped calling me, since I provide all of my own supplies. They were paying me like the others for the installs, but they were not making any profit on me off of supplies. Then again, my supples were higher quality than theirs. They also didn't like the fact that customers were asking for me in preference to their "in house" installers to do their installs. 

On that account, I am myself and independent dealer or tools and supples, new and used. Over the years, I've developed my own sources, including the wholesal suppliers that Waydwolf mentioned. I continually do research an markets and technologies. As I said, previously, I supply and support dealers in special parts, tools and installs.

My sepcialty is completely "in-wall" installs. The fact that I am an experienced licensed master electrician doesn't hurt either.

The tools that I have go way beyond those in the possession of most installers. I have no less than 10 brands and types of compression connectors. I carry direct burial cable in four different configurations and coax in 10 different configurations.

I have on hand; all sorts of splitters, connnectors, tools, lnbs, at least 10 Dish500's and 10 Plase III dishes with assorted parts.

So, being independent has its benefits and responsibilities.


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## DrHW (Jun 27, 2004)

Nick said:


> post hole digger
> 
> From this knowledgeable satellite subscriber's perspective,
> other important tools every installer needs, and I'm sure you
> ...


Wow, great advice for anyone dealing with the public. Last two that came to our house sound just like that, professional installations both times.


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## samrs (May 30, 2004)

Van said:


> To the bold text its not always that way, just depends on wether your working for a cheap ******* or not.
> 
> As to your recommendation of 4 tools then obviously your the kind of sub contractor who's work Im always having to fix ( hack work ) wich unfortunately tends to be the norm anymore these days. All of the equipment I listed ( forgot a flash light ) may not be required on every job but will be used at one time or another and in many cases is needed to do a clean quality install where theres no wires hanging or wires coming up through holes in the floors. Taking advice from the person I have in quotes is a bad idea in my opinion and will just lead you down a short path to unemployment.


 :lol: :lol: Haw! Haw! Your funny I like humor. I a'int saying he doesn't need all those tools I'm jest saying he won't likely need them the first day on the job. I forgot the level for that you can call me a moron.  You won't find any of my installs that are in need of your expert service, I do quality work up to a point, if folks want wall fishes they got to pay up. So yeah theres a lot with wires coming up through the floor, behind the tv, not from the other side of the room.

ibook I suggested a DTV home service provider because thats where I got my start. I did have to have a pickup and some basic tools though. The company in North Carolina is called Mastec, you will find them in other states also but I dont know about KS. Their techs are employees and get paid minimum wage or piece work whichever is greater. If they have to pay you minimum wage you can expect to get fired. They provide some of the tools signal meter, fancy compass/klienometer sometimes they even provide the truck but I think you need seniority. I like being a contractor I get all my work the day before on a fax at my house(oops theres another expense). But, I have to pay for all materials, workmans comp insurance, liability insurance, any certifications which might be required, truck, maintenance, all those tools(they break sometimes) and health insurance if I want it(got that one covered). Try calling DTV an asking who the provider is in your area.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

waydwolf said:


> ... There is no such thing as a contract employee. You are one or you are the other and when you are a contractor, you have certain rights just as when you are an employee.
> 
> ... Seventh, I strongly recommend a dual peaking meter to get two LNB positions maxed at once. Doing it one at a time is guaranteed to cause max signal on one and little to none on the other constantly.


waydwolf, you yet again prove that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Of course there is such a thing as a contract employee. It's a very common thing in many states. Here's a link to some boiler-plate contracts for Colorado.
http://www.uslegalforms.com/employmentforms/colorado-employment-forms.htm

As for a dual peaking meter, vs. doing it one-at-a-time - HOGWASH! You just proved that you're just a hack trying to talk big. I CONSISTENTLY get 100+ on both sides of a Dish 500 with nothing more than a pinger - or just the Point Dish screen for that matter.


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## waydwolf (Feb 2, 2003)

SimpleSimon said:


> waydwolf, you yet again prove that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
> 
> Of course there is such a thing as a contract employee. It's a very common thing in many states. Here's a link to some boiler-plate contracts for Colorado.
> http://www.uslegalforms.com/employmentforms/colorado-employment-forms.htm


 And when you are DAILY treated as an EMPLYEE and NOT a contractor, see what the IRS thinks of you getting a 1099 and NOT a W-2 and the employer not doing the manadatory FICA contributions. They see it MUCH differently. Putting men down as subcontractors for tax and benefit purposes and treating them daily as employees for command and control purposes is a dodge, and the various labor departments usually see it that way, never mind the tax authorities. You can look up the case law online and see what's become of contract companies that engaged in this dodge until that one tech who pressed charges and would not back down came along. Hint: it isn't pretty.



SimpleSimon said:


> As for a dual peaking meter, vs. doing it one-at-a-time - HOGWASH! You just proved that you're just a hack trying to talk big. I CONSISTENTLY get 100+ on both sides of a Dish 500 with nothing more than a pinger - or just the Point Dish screen for that matter.


 Hack? I have a PERFECT RECORD across EVERY DSL, cable TV, cable modem, DirecTV, and Dish Network install I've ever done. Not one backcharge ever as a contractor. Not one disciplinary action when employed directly.

I am also the default troubleshooter for my present outfit, covering the asses of everyone who supposedly has greater numbers of installs than me and more experience, because management knows I will fix the problem once and for all the first time.

Other techs being sent to do trouble calls tend to result in at least two more follow-ups to correct what the first TC tech didn't and the installer never should have caused.

Ten installs a day every day is not a sign of experience. More usually, it is a sign of bad installation practices being used to speed through the hacking of a customer's home to pieces. My assignments on a daily basis prove this.

Fully HALF of my TCs are the result of DNSC idiots. One quarter are present, former, or soon-to-be-former techs from my outfit. The remainder are other area contractors.

Uninsulated staples, staples in vinyl siding, lack of grounding, grounding inside power boxes to the neutral bus, electrical nail straps in siding, cabling over doorways, fastners driven into roofing with no waterproofing, vinyl and aluminum siding damaged beyond simple repair, etc. These are but some of what I clean up daily.

Never mind destruction of VCRs and televisions, destruction of boxes during the install and doing an RMA and leaving the install unfinished, and speaking of unfinished, coding off as done installs where the signal was never properly delivered to any receiver in a room where the customer wasn't checking. IOW, do the living room but simply leave a box without a signal in the upstairs bedrooms.

I clean up all of the above daily while the techs who do this are rarely kicked off the job by Dish or their contract company for incompetence. My job is to do CYA for others, not expose the problems and clean up anything for good.

NO beginner installer should be doing it with a single meter. I've observed that techs with three years and over one thousand installs' experience with a single meter have a 10-25% rate of failure at properly peaking both birds on DTV or E* and about 5% of my signal-related TCs are for this. Customers getting only part of their channels. Forcing me to climb to the roof and re-peak. This DOES NOT include the problems caused by techs who never bother tightening the nuts or who overtighten and bend the dishes.

And you think a beginner should be doing this?

Techs with dual meters have a neglible rate of signal-related problems w/regard to peaking. Haven't had one of those yet.

I could go into the incompetence I've cleaned up after in DSL by men with formal tech school and college education, or those in cable done by guys with several NCTI certifications never mind caught system errors done by line techs with SCTE certs.

Hack? Yeah, right.


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## waydwolf (Feb 2, 2003)

Mike500 said:


> I've done quite a few fulfillment installs for companies who like to supply thier components to their sub-contractor installlers. I agree on the hole with Waydwolf. They stopped calling me, since I provide all of my own supplies. They were paying me like the others for the installs, but they were not making any profit on me off of supplies. Then again, my supples were higher quality than theirs. They also didn't like the fact that customers were asking for me in preference to their "in house" installers to do their installs.


 I get these requests about every third install and on every third of those, they practically threaten to file a false complaint to force me to give them my cell number so they can go directly to me and not through Dish or Direct.



Mike500 said:


> On that account, I am myself and independent dealer or tools and supples, new and used. Over the years, I've developed my own sources, including the wholesal suppliers that Waydwolf mentioned. I continually do research an markets and technologies. As I said, previously, I supply and support dealers in special parts, tools and installs.


 My wife is convinced after reading my catalogs and shopping with me around that we should simply stop doing installs and TCs and do a retail parts operation for broadband/DBS as well as sell Direct and Dish. Not easy here, but it might be a going concern with the proper financing.



Mike500 said:


> My sepcialty is completely "in-wall" installs. The fact that I am an experienced licensed master electrician doesn't hurt either.


 I KNEW I should have taken school for electrical years ago. If I could afford the lower pay, I'd do as an electrician customer of mine suggested and do the school and do the trench work as an E-2 for a while. Maybe after I clear some more bills over my head. :scratchin


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## ibooksrule (Feb 16, 2003)

anyone who is a proud supporter of HD adult programing needs some help. a single meeter is good now days because if you peak one and your tilt is correct the other will be peaked as well. YOu seem to act as though your some big shot and as though your the top dude and you know everything. there is no reason i cant do installs with a car i dont think anyone is going to care if i have a car or a truck or van. I sure wouldnt care if someone showed up in a car or a pickup as long as they got the job done. And i wouldnt strap the ladder to the top of the car id fold it up and put it in the back with the seats down. I may end up working for dish network or directv to start and then go out on my own later on. that way i can save up money for tools and so forth


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## Mike500 (May 10, 2002)

waydwolf said:


> NO beginner installer should be doing it with a single meter. I've observed that techs with three years and over one thousand installs' experience with a single meter have a 10-25% rate of failure at properly peaking both birds on DTV or E* and about 5% of my signal-related TCs are for this. Customers getting only part of their channels. Forcing me to climb to the roof and re-peak. This DOES NOT include the problems caused by techs who never bother tightening the nuts or who overtighten and bend the dishes.


I've tried and still all sorts of dual and multiple signal meters. For both DirecTV and Dish, I still prefer the single Digisat II.

Then, again, I've done hundreds of installs and have peaked every satellite position. It's all on the technique and care in how you install the pole, assemble the dish (including how you align the settings) and tweak the adjustment. Having been originally trained in structual engineering, I can tell you that the order in which you tighten the bolts in assembling and tweaking the dish makes a difference.

Unfortunately, on another note, so many so called installers, who are poorly trained, as well as customers, have no clue as to waht quality work is. Neatness is not always quality work, but quality work is more likely than not to be also neat and eye pleasing.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

waydwolf said:


> And when you are DAILY treated as an EMPLYEE and NOT a contractor, see what the IRS thinks of you getting a 1099 and NOT a W-2 and the employer not doing the manadatory FICA contributions. They see it MUCH differently. Putting men down as subcontractors for tax and benefit purposes and treating them daily as employees for command and control purposes is a dodge, and the various labor departments usually see it that way, never mind the tax authorities. You can look up the case law online and see what's become of contract companies that engaged in this dodge until that one tech who pressed charges and would not back down came along. Hint: it isn't pretty.


Having spent many years as a contractor, regular employee, and contract employee, I know the difference. What I have done is led you down the road to prove to you (again) that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

A contractor receives a 1099. For this to be legal, a set of criteria must be met. One of those criteria is as you say - 'treatment as an employee'. Recent rulings boil it down to 3 areas: behavioral control, financial control, and type of relationship.

Employees receive W-2s, and for our purposes there are 2 types - regular and contract. Rights and responsibilities of employer and employee differ between 'regular' employment and 'contract' employment. I already gave you a reference for some common ways this is done in Colorado.

The point is, a contract employee is not a contractor, but something else entirely, and the classification DOES exist, contrary to your statement that it does not.


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## waydwolf (Feb 2, 2003)

ibooksrule said:


> anyone who is a proud supporter of HD adult programing needs some help. a single meeter is good now days because if you peak one and your tilt is correct the other will be peaked as well. YOu seem to act as though your some big shot and as though your the top dude and you know everything. there is no reason i cant do installs with a car i dont think anyone is going to care if i have a car or a truck or van. I sure wouldnt care if someone showed up in a car or a pickup as long as they got the job done. And i wouldnt strap the ladder to the top of the car id fold it up and put it in the back with the seats down. I may end up working for dish network or directv to start and then go out on my own later on. that way i can save up money for tools and so forth


 Re: HD adult programming... If you can't get in-your-face humor, you need to lower your caffeine intake possibly. While I do believe in the rights of people to partake of adult programming, and do believe they've been given short shrift compared to the money they bring in to the providers, it isn't as though I'm waving a flag from my truck about it. I think Jeff Dunham's Peanut would have had something to say here... "Yeeeeeeeoooooowww!"

Re: car and ladder... Have you ever wondered why cable companies are cracking down on contractor vehicles and tooling of late around the country, getting so anal as to require white recent model trucks or vans to be used? It's because of PROFESSIONALISM. Cars with ladders inside or strapped to the luggage rack scream unprofessional. And you know what? The guys with the cars with ladders folded up inside or on the roof are the ones with the highest failure and complaint rates.

You cannot do this job on the cheap. It's unprofessional and isn't fair to the customers. They expect certain things and if you keep failing to provide those things, they complain, those complaints build, your reputation suffers, and you end up persona non grata at business after business.

Would you rather be the tech that the customers constantly beg to come to directly for their problems, the tech who gets tipped every time, or the tech who gets fired after a few months?

I recommend, if your finances aren't great and your credit isn't the best, approaching a close family member about being co-signer on a personal loan to get your stuff together. CitiFinancial does loans as well as a dozen other places. There are many places which will finance a used truck with rack readily with your job as your credit essentially. The interest rates may be high, but it's better than nothing. *If you're serious, do it right. Otherwise, as the customers themselves would tell you, don't do it at all.

*George Carlin had a bit on "servicing the customer" which involved pelvic thrusting. This is pretty much what too many in our business are doing every day and is not what we should be about. Especially if we're going to say DBS is better than cable. I know no cable operator who tolerates the unprofessional behaviour and methods that I see daily in DBS work.


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