# DirecTV ending contracts with residential dealers



## energyx (Aug 8, 2011)

AT&T has notified a group of dealers who sell DirecTV products that their contracts will end in December after a terrible quarter for pay TV


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Was unable to read article without a log in. I wonder if this includes Solid Signal?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

If it includes ALL residential dealers then it would include Solid Signal as far as being able to sell to residential customers. If true, then their inability to service accounts that have been converted to AT&T's system isn't a short term issue, but working as designed.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

It fits in with my experience. Solid Signal was unable to see most of the details of my account when I purchased an HR24 from them. The guy said something about limited computer access. In hindsight I think that they cannot access the new att system but can still see old account info from the previous system. It seems like this confirms that they might be out of the loop permanently.

Also doesn’t that mean that ATT won’t activate owned receivers if they are sold? Sucks big time if it’s true!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Note that the article (as much can be seen) says AT&T notified "a group of dealers". It does not say that AT&T is cutting ties with ALL dealers.
Look for more information from specific dealers on whether or not they will remain dealers in the future.

"A dealer" is their apparent source for this article, other than public information about AT&T's financial statements and speculation.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

It says they notified "thousands of dealers". That is either all of them, or all but a very select few - maybe they'll retain relationships with big resellers like Costco.

FYI, if you want to read articles like this that have something pop up over the top, reload the page and hit escape quickly, which will stop the page from executing the script that does the popover. You might have to try a few times. This works for me on Firefox.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> It says they notified "thousands of dealers". That is either all of them, or all but a very select few - maybe they'll retain relationships with big resellers like Costco.
> 
> FYI, if you want to read articles like this that have something pop up over the top, reload the page and hit escape quickly, which will stop the page from executing the script that does the popover. You might have to try a few times. This works for me on Firefox.


Cool, never thought to try something like that.
Thanks


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

Could this be the start of AT&T wanting to go all internet streaming? I wonder how soon it will be before they wont want the HR-44 and under equipment back?


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

CraigerM said:


> Could this be the start of AT&T wanting to go all internet streaming? I wonder how soon it will be before they wont want the HR-44 and under equipment back?


Sounds to me like they are following in the footsteps of a lot of the station owners. If you want this station then you must also carry these other 5 that I own.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jimmie57 said:


> Sounds to me like they are following in the footsteps of a lot of the station owners. If you want this station then you must also carry these other 5 that I own.


Probably should wait and see who's actually affected by this.

Rich


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

CraigerM said:


> Could this be the start of AT&T wanting to go all internet streaming? I wonder how soon it will be before they wont want the HR-44 and under equipment back?


They aren't going to go "all internet streaming", I wish people would quit posting something that ridiculous. If they were doing that they wouldn't be in the process of getting a new satellite ready to launch as we speak.

Won't be long before they don't want the HR44 back - they determine whether to ask for equipment back based on whether it is fully depreciated, i.e. over five years old. I'm sure some of the older HR44s are five years old now.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

CraigerM said:


> Could this be the start of AT&T wanting to go all internet streaming? I wonder how soon it will be before they wont want the HR-44 and under equipment back?


Don't see any correlation with that at all. What I see is them not wanting to supply outside access to their systems as solid signal and others have now.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> They aren't going to go "all internet streaming", I wish people would quit posting something that ridiculous. If they were doing that they wouldn't be in the process of getting a new satellite ready to launch as we speak.
> 
> Won't be long before they don't want the HR44 back - they determine whether to ask for equipment back based on whether it is fully depreciated, i.e. over five years old. I'm sure some of the older HR44s are five years old now.


What if the only reason they are launching a new satellite is because going all internet streaming will take awhile? I now think 2020 was too early for AT&T's CEO to say that date for going all internet streaming. Intel's 5g modem wont be in some phone until next year. Sorry, I forgot AT&T's CEO said they would use SatelliteTV in the rural areas but what if the launching of the new satellite is so they can use that until they get 5g in the rural areas?


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> What if the only reason they are launching a new satellite is because going all internet streaming will take awhile? I now think 2020 was too early for AT&T's CEO to say that date for going all internet streaming. Intel's 5g modem wont be in some phone until next year. Sorry, I forgot AT&T's CEO said they would use SatelliteTV in the rural areas but what if the launching of the new satellite is so they can use that until they get 5g in the rural areas?


They are probably launching another Sat because they already paid out the nose for it and can't cancel it without huge fees


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

No, they are launching another satellite because the rest of their satellites will keep operating until 2030 if not later, which is the actual date when they would go "all streaming".

Dish is likely to drop satellite before Directv does. They have half the satellite customers and two arcs to maintain, and are losing as many customers a quarter as Directv does despite fewer customers so the numbers don't favor them. If you want to see a satellite company go all streaming, they will do it first.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

compnurd said:


> They are probably launching another Sat because they already paid out the nose for it and can't cancel it without huge fees


The contract was let AFTER they were purchased by AT&T.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> It says they notified "thousands of dealers".


"a dealer who works under a similar agreement selling DirecTV products told Business Insider that AT&T gave 30-day notices to "thousands" of longtime residential dealers, informing them that their contracts would expire in December."

Thousands being in quotes in the poorly fire walled article. I'm not ready to jump to "all" residential dealers or even assume that any specific dealer would be included unless the dealer makes an announcement.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> What if the only reason they are launching a new satellite is because going all internet streaming will take awhile?


What if you are completely wrong about this "all streaming" thing that you have been pushing for the past four years? We have argued this before. DIRECTV satellite will be around a long time.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

slice1900 said:


> Dish is likely to drop satellite before Directv does.


DISH would need to grow their other businesses to the point where they are profitable and can take over for their satellite business. At DISH satellite is the main thing and has been the main thing since DISH was Echostar selling big dishes. Their other business ventures (Sling TV and their wireless license investments) need to be bigger than satellite before they even consider shutting anything down.

At AT&T satellite is an investment ... they bought a satellite company that had passed through the hands of several other owners over the years. Satellite is not the main thing at AT&T and they could sell the satellite service as easily as they bought it (although there would be some branding issues since they are using "DIRECTV" for their other services). They could sell the assets to some company who believes they can keep the lights on. Personally I believe DIRECTV will continue to offer satellite services as long as they have commercial customers to support the system ... and let residential customers subscribe as well. There is no reason to turn away profitable customers.


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

This may be a dumb question but how does OTT work from the DTV broadcast centers? Couldn't they use the same DTV satellite's in orbit for both DTV over SatelliteTV and DTV over IP? Or do they just use the DTV servers at the DTV broadcast centers for OTT? I saw the UVerseTV diagram that show their satellite's in orbit beaming the content to the UVerseTV IPTV broadcast centers using their super IP hub offices.

https://www.att.com/Common/about_us/files/pdf/HowUverseIsDelivered_2-22.pdf


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

James Long said:


> What if you are completely wrong about this "all streaming" thing that you have been pushing for the past four years? We have argued this before. DIRECTV satellite will be around a long time.


Don't get me wrong I like DTV's PQ using SatelliteTV but if they could get the exact same experience over IP wouldn't that be better? Not having to install a dish on the roof, smaller boxes, wouldn't go out in bad weather. Also getting the same content with a lower price because you could save on equipment costs putting the DVR in the cloud.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

CraigerM said:


> Don't get me wrong I like DTV's PQ using SatelliteTV but if they could get the exact same experience over IP wouldn't that be better? No dish on the roof smaller boxes, wouldn't go out in bad weather. Also getting the same content with a lower price because you could save on equipment costs putting the DVR in the cloud.


There are a lot of "if"s in that statement. Lets see what happens "if" AT&T introduces a satellite equivalent service - and just how far away from satellite that offering becomes.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

CraigerM said:


> ....wouldn't go out in bad weather.


I know you're referring to rain fade, but when we had a hurricane pass by last year, we were without power for five days in our neighborhood. Power came back and I had my DIRECTV. Neighbors with Comcast had another 13 days before their cable was restored. Could have just as easily been their internet.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Getting back to the topic of this thread, what would be the reason for AT&T to end their contracts with any residential dealers? The answer that makes sense would be "to make more money". Is it cheaper for AT&T|DIRECTV to sell directly to the consumer and have AT&T or contracted installers do the install work? Are they paying local dealers too much for selling and installing their systems? Or are they targeting authorized resellers who sell the service but do not do the installs (basically paying companies to sell the same service one can buy online or by calling DIRECTV's toll free number)? More information is needed on who the "thousands" of dealers are but I can't imaging AT&T|DIRECTV such a decision unless it is to save the company money.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

CraigerM said:


> What if the only reason they are launching a new satellite is because going all internet streaming will take awhile? I now think 2020 was too early for AT&T's CEO to say that date for going all internet streaming. Intel's 5g modem wont be in some phone until next year. Sorry, I forgot AT&T's CEO said they would use SatelliteTV in the rural areas but what if the launching of the new satellite is so they can use that until they get 5g in the rural areas?


will they multicast over 5g and fiber to home? or just use the no so good unicast


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## CraigerM (Apr 15, 2014)

JoeTheDragon said:


> will they multicast over 5g and fiber to home? or just use the no so good unicast


Not sure.


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## compnurd (Apr 23, 2007)

James Long said:


> There are a lot of "if"s in that statement. Lets see what happens "if" AT&T introduces a satellite equivalent service - and just how far away from satellite that offering becomes.


There is like 400 ifs in all of his statements


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

James Long said:


> Getting back to the topic of this thread, what would be the reason for AT&T to end their contracts with any residential dealers? The answer that makes sense would be "to make more money". Is it cheaper for AT&T|DIRECTV to sell directly to the consumer and have AT&T or contracted installers do the install work? Are they paying local dealers too much for selling and installing their systems? Or are they targeting authorized resellers who sell the service but do not do the installs (basically paying companies to sell the same service one can buy online or by calling DIRECTV's toll free number)? More information is needed on who the "thousands" of dealers are but I can't imaging AT&T|DIRECTV such a decision unless it is to save the company money.


I really think it's a infrastructural issue. They want to get rid of all DIRECTV backbone and make it all att and they don't want to give them the same access. Add that into them wanting to push it at att stores... so yes money as well... but who knows.

Solid signal seems like it should survive because of its commercial side though...


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> Dish is likely to drop satellite before Directv does. They have half the satellite customers and two arcs to maintain, and are losing as many customers a quarter as Directv does despite fewer customers so the numbers don't favor them. If you want to see a satellite company go all streaming, they will do it first.


If DISH drops their satellite service, then DirecTV picks up a few million subs from DISH that are too rural to have decent internet or don't want to go streaming for whatever reason.



CraigerM said:


> This may be a dumb question but how does OTT work from the DTV broadcast centers? Couldn't they use the same DTV satellite's in orbit for both DTV over SatelliteTV and DTV over IP? Or do they just use the DTV servers at the DTV broadcast centers for OTT? I saw the UVerseTV diagram that show their satellite's in orbit beaming the content to the UVerseTV IPTV broadcast centers using their super IP hub offices.


Huh? That's just showing U-Verse picking up C-band signals. DirecTV picks up C-band in El Segundo. I don't know where they pick up C-band for DirecTV NOW, but it's probably a single pickup location (with redundant backup), and then IP fiber to their datacenters nationwide that stream to the customer. Comcast's network is entirely IP fiber, they pick up C-band in Denver, or receive feeds via IP fiber, and then it's IP all the way to the local headend, where it gets modulated on QAM.



James Long said:


> Getting back to the topic of this thread, what would be the reason for AT&T to end their contracts with any residential dealers? The answer that makes sense would be "to make more money".


The answer is that AT&T is done actively marketing DirecTV to consumers. That doesn't mean they are getting rid of DirecTV, it's going to be around for a very, very long time for rural areas, commercial customers, boats, RVs, etc, but they will probably market directly through channels appropriate to those audiences, i.e. a magazine about hospitality management for hotels or a website for boat owners.

What's interesting is that they are still doing installs. My thought is that at some point, AT&T will stop installing DirecTV, and leave the installs to dealers like they used to do, with residential type of dealers in rural areas, and commercial installers that do A/V systems, data, and telecom for bars and hotels doing those installs.


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

Bigg said:


> If DISH drops their satellite service, then DirecTV picks up a few million subs from DISH that are too rural to have decent internet or don't want to go streaming for whatever reason.
> 
> Huh? That's just showing U-Verse picking up C-band signals. DirecTV picks up C-band in El Segundo. I don't know where they pick up C-band for DirecTV NOW, but it's probably a single pickup location (with redundant backup), and then IP fiber to their datacenters nationwide that stream to the customer. Comcast's network is entirely IP fiber, they pick up C-band in Denver, or receive feeds via IP fiber, and then it's IP all the way to the local headend, where it gets modulated on QAM.
> 
> ...


well they don't sell NHL CI / NBA LP / MLB EI on there directv now. att uverse only has NBA LP.

directv now is missing some locals in areas as well.

Directv killing sat may save DISH unless Dish can't get HBO or ATT owned RSN's


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## codespy (Mar 30, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> ...............FYI, if you want to read articles like this that have something pop up over the top, reload the page and hit escape quickly, which will stop the page from executing the script that does the popover. You might have to try a few times. This works for me on Firefox.


Wow, yet another thing I learned for the first time. Thanks slice.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> DISH would need to grow their other businesses to the point where they are profitable and can take over for their satellite business. At DISH satellite is the main thing and has been the main thing since DISH was Echostar selling big dishes. Their other business ventures (Sling TV and their wireless license investments) need to be bigger than satellite before they even consider shutting anything down.


Dish isn't making anything from their wireless licenses, but they have a lot of value if sold to someone able to make use of them. Or maybe Dish will become a big player in fixed wireless 5G over the next few years if they're willing to invest a few billion, who knows.

Either way, as Dish loses satellite subscribers and they make less money on satellite it won't matter if they have something else that can take over for it. If it starts losing money, Charlie Ergen is a sharp businessman he'll know when it is better to throw in the towel rather than support a money-losing operation in a shrinking industry.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Fortunately, as with DIRECTV, the satellites are already in the sky. The uplink centers are already built. The capital expenses are covered. This isn't like year one for either satellite carrier. All either has to do is "keep the lights on" which is relatively cheap.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

JoeTheDragon said:


> well they don't sell NHL CI / NBA LP / MLB EI on there directv now. att uverse only has NBA LP.
> 
> directv now is missing some locals in areas as well.
> 
> Directv killing sat may save DISH unless Dish can't get HBO or ATT owned RSN's


The big miss is PBS, so you have to have a separate antenna and DVR or use PBS's Passport for that. PBS is not streaming anywhere yet.

DirecTV is not killing satellite, and will not kill it at least for a couple of decades. What I said is that _they are not actively marketing it to consumers_, which has already happened. If a consumer wants DirecTV and wants to pay full price plus some, AT&T will sell it to them, but AT&T is not going to spend money marketing DirecTV to the general public anymore.

They still need DirecTV for their own consumer bundles for a few more years as they get their VDSL system overlaid with fiber. After that, DirecTV will only be marketed to rural, commercial, RV, Boat, etc users, and the mainstream residential subscriber base will slowly fall away over time. Due to DirecTV's huge commercial installation base, DirecTV will outlast DISH, not to mention the split arc system. DirecTV has better technology (other than their crappy receivers which aren't as much of an issue for commercial), more bandwidth, and a single, very tight arc that's usable from Alaska to Maine.

I've seen a whole bunch of hotels switch to DirecTV over the past few years, and virtually every sports restaurant and bar has DirecTV. DirecTV could survive just on the commercial customers, so why not offer a residential service as well as long as the satellites are up there? As long as linear TV survives for sports and news, and people demand that content at restaurants, bars, hotels, and airports, DirecTV survives as a distribution mechanism. Your average Joe might be streaming all his sports in a few years, but the local wall of TVs restaurant is not going to be streaming 20 channels at once and having their manager, who is an expert as managing a kitchen and cranking out massive volumes of delicious wings and beer, troubleshooting a bunch of Rokus that are wonky because the internet slowed down.

They are coming out with their AT&T TV service which is OTT streaming to their own STB next year, and that is really the full replacement for DirecTV DBS for consumers who have broadband access.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

James Long said:


> Fortunately, as with DIRECTV, the satellites are already in the sky. The uplink centers are already built. The capital expenses are covered. This isn't like year one for either satellite carrier. All either has to do is "keep the lights on" which is relatively cheap.


Unlike Directv, not all of their current satellites will last until 2030. They will need replacements sooner than that, and they have more satellites to worry about since they have two arcs. If they have a satellite that will run out of fuel in 2024/2025, whether it makes sense to replace will depend on how many subscribers they expect to have in that arc over its lifetime, versus how much future profit they'd lose by shutting down service in that arc instead.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

trh said:


> I know you're referring to rain fade, but when we had a hurricane pass by last year, we were without power for five days in our neighborhood. Power came back and I had my DIRECTV. Neighbors with Comcast had another 13 days before their cable was restored. Could have just as easily been their internet.


Totally agree.

My cable company does "maintenance" once a month on a Thursday at midnight. Sometimes there is no disruption, sometimes it is down until the morning. If I got my internet from them I'd be out of luck with no TV and no internet. Since I have a physical DVR I can still watch recordings during that time - but that would not be true if I had a 'cloud DVR'.

At least with rain fade outages they are limited in time, and you can tell when they might occur by checking the forecast. With internet outages you have no idea when they will occur, or when they do how long they will last - my cable company's "maintenance" outages are annoying, but at least I have some sort of advance idea. When they had a fiber cut between their main headend in Des Moines and my local headend last year, it was out for 12 hours. That's several years worth of rain fade outages!


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> At least with rain fade outages they are limited in time, and you can tell when they might occur by checking the forecast. With internet outages you have no idea when they will occur, or when they do how long they will last - my cable company's "maintenance" outages are annoying, but at least I have some sort of advance idea. When they had a fiber cut between their main headend in Des Moines and my local headend last year, it was out for 12 hours. That's several years worth of rain fade outages!


That's entirely true, but most people don't choose a tv provider based on reliability in storm or outage situations. DirecTV and OTA are better than anything else, as if you have a standby generator and propane tank on site, you can lose all utilities and still have power and TV. Verizon FiOS would be a close second, but it can still have backhoe or stupid driver incidents, the former happened to a family friend a few months ago, and it took several crews working OT several days to fix.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Bigg said:


> That's entirely true, but most people don't choose a tv provider based on reliability in storm or outage situations. DirecTV and OTA are better than anything else, as if you have a standby generator and propane tank on site, you can lose all utilities and still have power and TV. Verizon FiOS would be a close second, but it can still have backhoe or stupid driver incidents, the former happened to a family friend a few months ago, and it took several crews working OT several days to fix.


Oh I agree, most people aren't thinking of storms - let alone hurricanes or ice storms where you can have outages measured in days or weeks. Just agreeing with trh that people suggesting that a streaming provider is more reliable because of the lack of rain fade aren't considering that internet service isn't 100% reliable either and you lack the easy visibility into why you are having an outage and how long you can expect it to last.

If you really wanted reliability, the best would be satellite with IP as a backup that could take over during periods of anticipated rain fade. However, that's a niche market so it wouldn't be worth Directv's trouble to develop such a solution. Most people are tolerant of brief outages, or at least wouldn't be willing to pay more to avoid them.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> Just agreeing with trh that people suggesting that a streaming provider is more reliable because of the lack of rain fade aren't considering that internet service isn't 100% reliable either and you lack the easy visibility into why you are having an outage and how long you can expect it to last.
> 
> If you really wanted reliability, the best would be satellite with IP as a backup that could take over during periods of anticipated rain fade. However, that's a niche market so it wouldn't be worth Directv's trouble to develop such a solution. Most people are tolerant of brief outages, or at least wouldn't be willing to pay more to avoid them.


Absolutely. DirecTV and OTA are second to none for reliability. They could just give you a login for DTVN with your DTV account, but that would probably cause widespread password sharing of people letting their kids/relatives/whomever have the login.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

James Long said:


> Getting back to the topic of this thread, what would be the reason for AT&T to end their contracts with any residential dealers? The answer that makes sense would be "to make more money". Is it cheaper for AT&T|DIRECTV to sell directly to the consumer and have AT&T or contracted installers do the install work? Are they paying local dealers too much for selling and installing their systems? Or are they targeting authorized resellers who sell the service but do not do the installs (basically paying companies to sell the same service one can buy online or by calling DIRECTV's toll free number)? More information is needed on who the "thousands" of dealers are but I can't imaging AT&T|DIRECTV such a decision unless it is to save the company money.


It could be that DirecTV winds up with more "nuisance" customer accounts that come in through dealers. Close to a decade ago, I started arranging sales through Solid Signal because I could no longer have DirecTV ship a system directly to a customer for self installation, and it was too much work for me to schmooze with their assigned installer who showed up with it, to get it installed satisfactorily in unapproved MDU situations. Once I went with Solid Signal, they would ship it directly to the new customer, and I think they used an installer number of theirs in processing the order even though I was the actual installer.

I no longer am in the business of supporting independent, customer-owned community antennas in multiple dwelling units, and so God only knows how DirecTV can ever get those customer accounts serviced, since a residential technician showing up for a service call will not be outfitted for community antenna distribution system service, he won't know the wiring paths, he won't know who to get access permission from etc.,etc.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

Bigg said:


> I've seen a whole bunch of hotels switch to DirecTV over the past few years, and virtually every sports restaurant and bar has DirecTV. DirecTV could survive just on the commercial customers, so why not offer a residential service as well as long as the satellites are up there? As long as linear TV survives for sports and news, and people demand that content at restaurants, bars, hotels, and airports, DirecTV survives as a distribution mechanism. Your average Joe might be streaming all his sports in a few years, but the local wall of TVs restaurant is not going to be streaming 20 channels at once and having their manager, who is an expert as managing a kitchen and cranking out massive volumes of delicious wings and beer, troubleshooting a bunch of Rokus that are wonky because the internet slowed down.


Except that the sports bar wouldn't be using a bunch of Rokus, they'd be using a networked streaming box provided directly from AT&T, probably designed just for commercial use with their forthcoming streaming "full DirecTV" service. It should be easy enough to stream 20 different channels simultaneously if the bar has gigabit service from AT&T Fiber. For other gigabit providers, well, they'd probably just want to go with that MSO's own TV service (at least if the MSO enforces data caps against competing video providers).

I say all that to underscore that, several years from now,DTV's base of commercial DBS subscribers will probably also dwindle, although not to the extent that their residential base will. Whether the nationwide customer pool will be enough to sustain profitable operations until DTV's current fleet of satellites fails, or whether AT&T at some point sells off their DBS operations after converting the lion's share to OTT, who knows. But those scenarios are certainly years away.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Bigg said:


> Absolutely. DirecTV and OTA are second to none for reliability. They could just give you a login for DTVN with your DTV account, but that would probably cause widespread password sharing of people letting their kids/relatives/whomever have the login.


If they wanted to do that, they'd have it built into the Genie 2 and authorized by the access card. If there's no login, there's no way to share the account.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

codespy said:


> Wow, yet another thing I learned for the first time. Thanks slice.


And it works.

Rich


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## JoeTheDragon (Jul 21, 2008)

NashGuy said:


> Except that the sports bar wouldn't be using a bunch of Rokus, they'd be using a networked streaming box provided directly from AT&T, probably designed just for commercial use with their forthcoming streaming "full DirecTV" service. It should be easy enough to stream 20 different channels simultaneously if the bar has gigabit service from AT&T Fiber. For other gigabit providers, well, they'd probably just want to go with that MSO's own TV service (at least if the MSO enforces data caps against competing video providers).
> 
> I say all that to underscore that, several years from now,DTV's base of commercial DBS subscribers will probably also dwindle, although not to the extent that their residential base will. Whether the nationwide customer pool will be enough to sustain profitable operations until DTV's current fleet of satellites fails, or whether AT&T at some point sells off their DBS operations after converting the lion's share to OTT, who knows. But those scenarios are certainly years away.


and will that AT&T Fiber be free? or at the same rate they pay now for tv?

What bar will pay $5-10K for an fiber build out or $1K/mo for an 100/100 DIA fiber line (just for internet) and will ATT give an a bar UNCAPED / UNthrottled LTE?? for the same rate as sat tv with TV? How fast will a bar hit 22GB/mo and be slowed down to useless speeds? half way though 1 day of NFL Ticket?

Maybe cable can give them 1G/1G DIA fiber for say $2500 /mo


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

I just contacted a large DirecTV dealer who has every class of dealership except MDU, and they did not receive a notice of dealership termination.

I also just went to Solid Signal's site and see that they have DirecTV receivers for sale for the "full boat" prices, but I found nothing that referred to establishing a new customer account. When I clicked Add-to-cart for the H-25, it purported to charge me $99, "saving" me $100.99, and when I went from there to PayPal, it did not forewarn me of an activation commitment to allow me that price. So they don't seem to be booking that sale as a dealer would.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

JoeTheDragon said:


> and will that AT&T Fiber be free? or at the same rate they pay now for tv?
> 
> What bar will pay $5-10K for an fiber build out or $1K/mo for an 100/100 DIA fiber line (just for internet) and will ATT give an a bar UNCAPED / UNthrottled LTE?? for the same rate as sat tv with TV? How fast will a bar hit 22GB/mo and be slowed down to useless speeds? half way though 1 day of NFL Ticket?
> 
> Maybe cable can give them 1G/1G DIA fiber for say $2500 /mo


You seem to be confusing AT&T Fiber (which is a wired broadband service for homes and businesses) with AT&T Wireless (LTE). And no one pays thousands of dollars for an AT&T Fiber build-out. AT&T just runs the fiber wherever they choose to, like when they ran it down my street a couple months ago. Within AT&T's existing wired service footprint (the South, Midwest, CA), they're pretty aggressively expanding their fiber-to-the-premises network in urban and certain suburban areas by converting streets where they had previously only been offering fiber-to-the-node (i.e. Uverse) or DSL service. At least for residential accounts (no idea about commercial customers), there's no data cap with AT&T Fiber if you have 1 Gbps service.

Granted, AT&T is never going to offer fiber service everywhere, even within their footprint. But very fast broadband internet from various providers is just going to keep penetrating more and more of the map in the years to come. And when I wrote about the possibility that an increasing number of commercial establishments might switch from DBS to various forms of IP-based video, I was thinking about the 2020s, not right now.

Ultimately, all video is going to be subsumed within the internet. Sports bars and other commercial establishments won't be immune from that trend. It's just a question of how many years.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Just playing with the numbers here, I currently have 100 Mbps fiber at my place, which wouldn't be fast enough. I could upgrade to 500 Mbps for another $150/month. However, even if my fiber had 100% uptime to the ISP, going out over the internet is never 100% reliable. You experience brief route outages that may last seconds, minutes or occasionally hours where one location simply can't "see" another location. If that happened during a big game, I'd have a lot of very angry customers.

Now they aren't happy when the TVs all go "searching for signal" when it rains hard, but they all understand why it happens, and know that will only last a few minutes. If they go "searching for server" because of a problem reaching Directv's streaming servers, how long will it be out? Just a minute? Or long enough that they should leave and go somewhere with satellite? They won't know, but after a few minutes I could easily see them getting up to leave, which doesn't happen with rain fade (because they know it will be brief and because they don't want to get soaked leaving during a downpour )

I see zero advantage to switching from satellite to IP, even if Directv provided all the equipment for free and paid the $150/month difference to upgrade my fiber (which isn't AT&T, they don't operate in Iowa) It wouldn't make my service better, it wouldn't make it more reliable, so why would I switch? It wouldn't be cheaper for Directv to deliver to me, so why would they want me to switch? Even in a new install, when a business pays anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands a year to Directv, the cost of putting up a dish is not a factor like it can be for residential.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Bigg said:


> they are not actively marketing it to consumers


They're still pushing it at Costco.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

NashGuy said:


> Except that the sports bar wouldn't be using a bunch of Rokus, they'd be using a networked streaming box provided directly from AT&T, probably designed just for commercial use with their forthcoming streaming "full DirecTV" service. It should be easy enough to stream 20 different channels simultaneously if the bar has gigabit service from AT&T Fiber. For other gigabit providers, well, they'd probably just want to go with that MSO's own TV service (at least if the MSO enforces data caps against competing video providers).


Business fiber is $$$. A lot of these sports bar places have VDSL or cable internet for credit card processing and back office type of stuff, but they just don't have the bandwidth to stream TV, much less at that kind of scale. They are not paying thousands per month for fiber. It might be more doable for a hotel, but then again, if they have to go from 100mbps to 500mbps or whatever, that's going to cost them a fortune versus having a dish hanging out on the roof. There is an efficiency to have DBS in being a pure broadcast mechanism that you don't get with IP. With individual households, it can be quite economical to have individual streaming boxes, not so with businesses.



> I say all that to underscore that, several years from now,DTV's base of commercial DBS subscribers will probably also dwindle, although not to the extent that their residential base will. Whether the nationwide customer pool will be enough to sustain profitable operations until DTV's current fleet of satellites fails, or whether AT&T at some point sells off their DBS operations after converting the lion's share to OTT, who knows. But those scenarios are certainly years away.


DirecTV's DBS system will be around for a long time, and the commercial side is going to be thriving for quite some time. As long as linear pay tv is around, satellite will be around with it. When linear tv is no longer linear tv, then satellite will die with it, but that could be a very, very long time. The idea of linear tv, at least for certain types of content, like sports and news, is very engrained in the American culture. Even if many homes start receiving content through apps as individual events that are streamed, I think commercial will still be receiving them as linear channels.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

slice1900 said:


> Just playing with the numbers here, I currently have 100 Mbps fiber at my place, which wouldn't be fast enough. I could upgrade to 500 Mbps for another $150/month. However, even if my fiber had 100% uptime to the ISP, going out over the internet is never 100% reliable.


And many businesses don't have access to small business or consumer grade connectivity at those prices. They're looking at VDSL or cable versus Metro-E. If they can get away with a 12mbps DSL connection for credit card processing and office systems, and have DirecTV, then that's what they will do. Commercial is a lot more profitable, since commercial customers are willing and able to pay a lot more for the service, and it makes good business sense for them to do so, especially in a world of cord cutting, where many people cut the cord and then treat themselves to going out to the bar and getting wings to catch a few big games here and there.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Yet I keep seeing articles like this:

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3409603-new-directv-service-self-installed-trimming-costs



> AT&T (T -0.3%) discussed how it would roll out a new set-top box and streaming DirecTV offering -- and ended up giving a preview of how it will eventually cut satellite service from its TV offering entirely, FierceVideo notes.


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

trh said:


> Yet I keep seeing articles like this:
> 
> https://seekingalpha.com/news/3409603-new-directv-service-self-installed-trimming-costs


Apparently they are workaholic financial investors who ever go out to a sports bar and watch the game and live in a giant city where everywhere is wired with cable.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Well what's funny about that is the Fiercevideo article doesn't quote AT&T's CEO saying anything about ending satellite service. That's all in the imagination of the author of that piece.

If they were going to end satellite service anytime soon, they wouldn't be in the process of launching a new satellite. That would be a giant waste of money if they were going to end satellite service within the next 10 years.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Just playing with the numbers here, I currently have 100 Mbps fiber at my place, which wouldn't be fast enough. I could upgrade to 500 Mbps for another $150/month. However, even if my fiber had 100% uptime to the ISP, going out over the internet is never 100% reliable. You experience brief route outages that may last seconds, minutes or occasionally hours where one location simply can't "see" another location. If that happened during a big game, I'd have a lot of very angry customers.
> 
> Now they aren't happy when the TVs all go "searching for signal" when it rains hard, but they all understand why it happens, and know that will only last a few minutes. If they go "searching for server" because of a problem reaching Directv's streaming servers, how long will it be out? Just a minute? Or long enough that they should leave and go somewhere with satellite? They won't know, but after a few minutes I could easily see them getting up to leave, which doesn't happen with rain fade (because they know it will be brief and because they don't want to get soaked leaving during a downpour )
> 
> I see zero advantage to switching from satellite to IP, even if Directv provided all the equipment for free and paid the $150/month difference to upgrade my fiber (which isn't AT&T, they don't operate in Iowa) It wouldn't make my service better, it wouldn't make it more reliable, so why would I switch? It wouldn't be cheaper for Directv to deliver to me, so why would they want me to switch? Even in a new install, when a business pays anywhere from thousands to tens of thousands a year to Directv, the cost of putting up a dish is not a factor like it can be for residential.





Bigg said:


> Business fiber is $$$. A lot of these sports bar places have VDSL or cable internet for credit card processing and back office type of stuff, but they just don't have the bandwidth to stream TV, much less at that kind of scale. They are not paying thousands per month for fiber. It might be more doable for a hotel, but then again, if they have to go from 100mbps to 500mbps or whatever, that's going to cost them a fortune versus having a dish hanging out on the roof. There is an efficiency to have DBS in being a pure broadcast mechanism that you don't get with IP. With individual households, it can be quite economical to have individual streaming boxes, not so with businesses.
> 
> DirecTV's DBS system will be around for a long time, and the commercial side is going to be thriving for quite some time. As long as linear pay tv is around, satellite will be around with it. When linear tv is no longer linear tv, then satellite will die with it, but that could be a very, very long time. The idea of linear tv, at least for certain types of content, like sports and news, is very engrained in the American culture. Even if many homes start receiving content through apps as individual events that are streamed, I think commercial will still be receiving them as linear channels.


I think both of your imaginations' are a bit constrained by current conditions when it comes to thinking about what things may be like a decade from now. For instance, talking about the unreliability of internet-based video delivery when that is only ever going to improve as time goes by thanks to continuing advances in technology. Meanwhile, rain fade (which is a real issue with DBS) is never going to get better. Sports bars would love not to have to deal with that problem any more. Likewise, trying to determine future business decisions based on the current costs of broadband for businesses. Also, isn't one of the reasons that lots of these businesses use DirecTV (rather than cable) because of sports packages that DTV exclusively offers? That could easily change too.

All sorts of little changes in technology, business and regulations will unfold in the years to come. I'm not saying they will wipe out the use of DBS among sports bars and other business establishments, I'm just saying that they could, or at least significantly decrease its use.


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Well what's funny about that is the Fiercevideo article doesn't quote AT&T's CEO saying anything about ending satellite service. That's all in the imagination of the author of that piece.
> 
> If they were going to end satellite service anytime soon, they wouldn't be in the process of launching a new satellite. That would be a giant waste of money if they were going to end satellite service within the next 10 years.


Here's an article about statements from AT&T's leaders back in Feb. of this year. Excerpt:

Also on this week's call, however, AT&T Senior Executive Vice President and CFO John Stephens noted that the company will continue to rely on satellite video delivery for rural areas for the foreseeable future. He did not detail the reasons behind this, but the likely explanation is that some rural areas are less likely to have quality broadband at high enough speeds to support video streams, particularly multiple video streams, while also supporting email, social media, telecommuting and other applications.​
I don't think AT&T has made any statements about "ending" satellite service but they have definitely made statements that indicate that it will be deprecated, that AT&T's marketing energies will be in expanding OTT delivery to all those customers where that's a feasible option, with DBS being the back-up plan for customers that can't be served via OTT.

And, of course, there was the Bloomberg article way back in 2016 that said that AT&T was aiming to make streaming their "primary" video platform by 2020.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

NashGuy said:


> I think both of your imaginations' are a bit constrained by current conditions when it comes to thinking about what things may be like a decade from now. For instance, talking about the unreliability of internet-based video delivery when that is only ever going to improve as time goes by thanks to continuing advances in technology.


Technology can advance all it wants, the internet won't be 100% reliable for delivery of packets in real time for the foreseeable future. Anyone who has a public route on the internet (a router with an AS designation) can alter the route for anything in the world, there's no security on that. Recently Google's entire cloud was unavailable for a couple hours because of a typo by someone at an ISP in Africa that misdirected Google's traffic through China & Russia (yeah, I'm suspicious that this was really an "accident" by an African ISP too...but what they said happened really can happen even if it was done by someone else in this particular case)

There are constant denial of service attacks which will take down parts of the internet, if you are streaming Directv through a CDN that is attacked because it also serves something else being attacked (for whatever reason) it could take down your stream.

I'm not saying the internet won't improve, but the situation TODAY is that you'll have more outage hours per year streaming that you will with satellite rain fade, and you won't have any idea when they come. Like you say, rain fade won't improve while streaming will but the situation that matters is the situation today. The situation 10 years from now is irrelevant, because that's getting to be around the time when Directv might have a satellite or two getting old - I have said many times I expect they will probably discontinue satellite in the early 2030s because they aren't going to replace any more satellites after T16 is launched early next year.


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## KyL416 (Nov 11, 2005)

slice1900 said:


> There are constant denial of service attacks which will take down parts of the internet, if you are streaming Directv through a CDN that is attacked because it also serves something else being attacked (for whatever reason) it could take down your stream.


Or if your ISP is having a pissing contest with one of the backbone providers like Verizon did with Cogent a few years ago and refused to expand their capacity to them unless Netflix agreed to pay up:
Level3 Proves That Verizon Is Absolutely To Blame For Netflix Congestion... Using Verizon's Own Blog Post
Study: Comcast and Verizon connections to Cogent dropped below 0.5Mbps
During Netflix money fight, Cogent's other big customers suffered too
Verizon and Cogent settle differences, agree to boost Internet quality


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Did the CFO say anything about AT&T ending contracts with any residential dealers?


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## NashGuy (Jan 30, 2014)

slice1900 said:


> Technology can advance all it wants, the internet won't be 100% reliable for delivery of packets in real time for the foreseeable future.


Eh, nothing in this world will ever be 100% reliable/perfect. What I do know is that, for myself, DTV Now (at least for live TV) was more reliable in early 2018, whether delivered over broadband from Comcast or AT&T, than was DTV satellite when I had it a few years ago, which went out on at least some channels every damn time it rained.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

I remember similar discussions about the viability of Directv and it’s use of Ku band vs C-Band. People said it would never work, the rain fade alone would kill it and the SD picture on DTV use to suck back then.

Now I am a believer that the market will dictate which way the money goes and the corporations will follow that trail.

Streaming seems to be the way people want content. Forget reliability or any other factor. 

It’s truly going to be a sad day but I fear it will come, so I will just enjoy my dish as long as it lasts. At least we got several years before the pain starts.


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## fjames (Nov 25, 2010)

If you run firefox, and overlays are a problem, google "behind the overlay revival." It's an extension, puts an icon in your address bar, and you just click it. did the reload-stop thing for years until I stumbled onto this extension.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

fjames said:


> If you run firefox, and overlays are a problem, google "behind the overlay revival." It's an extension, puts an icon in your address bar, and you just click it. did the reload-stop thing for years until I stumbled onto this extension.


Chrome uses the same extension. I just added it. Thanx.

Rich


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Off topic posts moved to off topic forum.

Viability of C-Band

LEO Satellite Service


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

I guess some house-cleaning?



> "We have no plans to discontinue satellite service. Our video strategy involves offering our customers choices in how they want to receive their video service, including via satellite, our wireline service or streaming over home broadband, regardless of their provider," AT&T said in a statement.


Deeper Dive-DirecTV soldiering on despite drastic subscriber losses | FierceVideo


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## Claude A Greiner (Dec 8, 2018)

Bigg said:


> The big miss is PBS, so you have to have a separate antenna and DVR or use PBS's Passport for that. PBS is not streaming anywhere yet.
> 
> DirecTV is not killing satellite, and will not kill it at least for a couple of decades. What I said is that _they are not actively marketing it to consumers_, which has already happened. If a consumer wants DirecTV and wants to pay full price plus some, AT&T will sell it to them, but AT&T is not going to spend money marketing DirecTV to the general public anymore.
> 
> ...


Directv is just a logical choice for hotels, restaurants or commercial properties.

People don't consider Dish for these types of properties unless they have a problem with Directv.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Claude A Greiner (Dec 8, 2018)

Any time a dealer is terminated it’s not s good thing. 

I was just on a call this morning with the dealers who apparently made the cut. 

The only ones they are terminating seems to be the smaller dealers who sell less than 1 per month. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Claude A Greiner said:


> Any time a dealer is terminated it's not s good thing.
> 
> I was just on a call this morning with the dealers who apparently made the cut.
> 
> The only ones they are terminating seems to be the smaller dealers who sell less than 1 per month.


Ah, that's good to know! I can understand why they'd want to cut off such low volume dealers, probably not worth their trouble. Probably cut off the guy I use when I need my LNB changed or similar - he advertises himself as a Dish dealer (at least that's what is painted on his truck) but also does Directv. He's a single person company AFAIK so I doubt he's doing more than one new account per month. Hopefully when they cut him off he didn't sell his AIM meter since that's all I need him for


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Claude A Greiner said:


> Any time a dealer is terminated it's not s good thing.
> 
> I was just on a call this morning with the dealers who apparently made the cut.
> 
> The only ones they are terminating seems to be the smaller dealers who sell less than 1 per month.


So is Solid Signal safe then? Still doesn't help if they can't access AT&T accounts.


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## Claude A Greiner (Dec 8, 2018)

TheRatPatrol said:


> So is Solid Signal safe then? Still doesn't help if they can't access AT&T accounts.


That's a good question.

Solid Signal is in the same region as me, and there was a mandatory dealer call yesterday and I didn't see anyone from there on the list of invited dealers



> Greater Lakes Dealers,
> 
> This call is to make sure we are all aligned with the future of AT&T and our Dealer Program. Your attendance is mandatory if you would like to remain an active dealer with a direct relationship with AT&T.
> 
> ...


I would assume they made the cut, as I think they did a good amount of business. I do know that Directv was not happy with them selling equipment on the internet like they do now.

I used to run the Dishstore when I was a big Dish dealer and even Dish had an issue with equipment sales on the internet.

I was going to transition to a Directv store and I was specifically told NO. When I mentioned solid signal, that's when I was told they where not happy with them either selling equipment.

Solid Signal isn't really all they seem to be. Granted they do a great job writing reviews on new products. But you should see some of their installations.

Here is a motel they recently wired









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Not a pretty picture.


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## AntAltMike (Nov 21, 2004)

AntAltMike said:


> I just contacted a large DirecTV dealer who has every class of dealership except MDU, and they did not receive a notice of dealership termination.


I just contacted that same dealer to confirm the availability of an H25 receiver if I needed one for a service call tomorrow, and he told me he recently got his Lodging and Institutions termination notice and will lose that dealership on December 31. He still has several other DirecTV commercial dealerships.

I'll tell you, when DirecTV finds out that none of their young pups has any idea how to troubleshoot a "loop" wiring distribution system, they are going to regret this, but they don't really give a damn, because they are saving the dealer commission on the ones they keep, and can just dump or lose the ones they can't effectively service.


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## cpalmer2k (May 24, 2010)

For what it is worth I contacted Solid Signal about two weeks ago to inquire about whether they could sell and activate an H25 for me to add to my existing account. I never received a reply. I refuse to deal with the AT&T truck roll policy to get one but my account has been automatically converted over to AT&T now.

At the bottom of their page it’s interesting that they identify themselves as a Dish Authorized Retailer but no mention of DirecTV?


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## bmetelsky (Mar 1, 2009)

cpalmer2k said:


> For what it is worth I contacted Solid Signal about two weeks ago to inquire about whether they could sell and activate an H25 for me to add to my existing account. I never received a reply. I refuse to deal with the AT&T truck roll policy to get one but my account has been automatically converted over to AT&T now.
> 
> At the bottom of their page it's interesting that they identify themselves as a Dish Authorized Retailer but no mention of DirecTV?


See below in quotes for what is stated on their site in regards to DirecTv:

"As a DIRECTV Authorized Dealer, we carry a wide variety of commercial and residential DIRECTV receivers including Genie and HD-DVR units. Search our online inventory for products from DIRECTV, KVH, and other top-selling manufacturers. Solid Signal is your No. 1 source for the best DIRECTV receivers. We also offer a huge variety of the best satellite equipment."

I don't think the sky is falling.....


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## Bigg (Feb 27, 2010)

Claude A Greiner said:


> Directv is just a logical choice for hotels, restaurants or commercial properties.
> 
> People don't consider Dish for these types of properties unless they have a problem with Directv.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It makes perfect sense to have one system nationwide. 5 years ago, most hotels were using local cable systems. Today, almost all of them are using DirecTV in one form or another. I like the ones that have actual DirecTV boxes in the rooms, which most don't, but I think the future for the big 3 hotel chains is what Mariott is doing with a small, customized 40-channel lineup distributed via an SMATV system with boxes on each TV that have Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, YouTube, etc, plus an interactive guide so people can actually figure out where channels are. IMO, that concept of a lineup of 3 to 4 dozen channels is the future of pay tv, as they are mostly the same channels you see in the skinny bundles on streaming services.


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