# Power Fail Problem with R15



## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

Hi all. I've been reading posts here for about 10 months. This is my first post. I've had my R15-500 for about one year. My current s/w upgrade is 10FA.

I have done numerous Red Button Resets in the past and all have recovered nicely. I have even unplugged the unit and had no problems when I replugged it in. However in the last week or so my neighborhood has had 2 power failures, the latest one this morning.

Each time when I got it powered up, it forced me to do a full SETUP function again, instead of the normal re-boot function. I have found two major problems with this.

1) The ToDo List is wiped clean (0 entries). Even after several hours. My ToDo List was about 62 items long. 

2) I notice that 50 of the 62 items are now in the History List marked CANCELLED. Even though I have 11 Series Links, they only re-populate the ToDo List beyond the highest date in the History List. I guess SL logic skipps any cancelled items. But I didn't cancel anything. I was forced to re-SETUP.

The bottom line is that I have to manually reprogram the ToDo List and Re-do all the Series Links to regain my list, if I can remember all the manual choices.

This can take hours, and another power fail could wipe it all out again. It seems that this problem only started with 10FA but I can't be certain. It's certainly the first time this has happened to me. TIA for any help.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

As a Dish customer early on with their first PVR, the 501, I applied simple computer logic to PVR/DVRs and it has served me well.

Basically, all these PVR/DVRs are computers with hard drives in a small chassis. Their power supplies are nowhere near the capacity of an ATX power supply in a PC.

Since I wouldn't have one of my computers *not* plugged into an uninterruptable power supply (UPS) I did the same with that PVR and every one since (including my two R15s).

You don't need a rippin big UPS as DVRs don't draw that much power. I find the little 350va APCs that show up on sale at the computer whorehouses for around $20 do nicely. They offer three outlets that are backed up by the UPS battery and three that are surge protected. They'll also protect your phone line into the DVR.

A small UPS won't let you watch a movie or an episode of Lost when the power goes out but it will keep power applied to your DVR during a power company drop and return or brown-out and you won't have to reset everything.

If the power goes out for an extended period then you're out of luck.

JMO YMMV


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

I do appreciate the suggestion. I may yet try this. My problem is that one of the recommended procedures for troubleshooting is to unplug and replug the DVR.

How is this different from a one minute power failure?

IOW, why can't it remember the ToDo list like it does when you unplug/replug. It must be saved to disk. But somehow the "re-do SETUP" flag gets set and I guess this wipes the saved ToDo list.

I was hoping someone else found a way to bypass the forced SETUP. RBR doesn't bypass forced SETUP after power fail.

Would it do any good to force a s/w upgrade refresh? If so, pls post procedure.
Tnx.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

I'm not sure but perhaps when powering down the R15 and doing a "cold" boot part of the startup might be to rewrite or clear the to-do list.

I'm new to R15s but Dish receivers were happiest when power was always available. They could get really cranky when power dropped out and they crashed. Even the infamous Dish 721 acted much more politely when on a UPS.

Remember, the R15 is always on... even when the power LED is off. During stand-by (power LED off) it may be doing hard drive maintenance and houskeeping. Crashing during that procedure might cause it to clear lots of stuff and start from scratch or at least it will get confused... kinda like when you don't shutdown Windows properly. The next time you start Windows it rags you that "Windows was not shut down properly and I'm going to check your hard drive".

This may be a situation where treating the symptom is all you can do and you'll never cure the disease. Put your R15 on a UPS and the power won't drop out, the R15 won't crash, you won't reboot, and it won't lose any settings.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

When the R15 resets (for any reason including power loss) it loses guide data. The to-do list is not accurate until after the guide data rebuilds, which can take 24 to 48 hours.

Carl


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

carl6 said:


> When the R15 resets (for any reason including power loss) it loses guide data. The to-do list is not accurate until after the guide data rebuilds, which can take 24 to 48 hours.
> 
> Carl


Yes, I understand. However, in the past, whether with a RBR or unplug/plug restart, the first two days of the guide (& ToDo List) repopulated within an hour or two.

The fact that all ToDo entries show up as cancelled shows that it remembered them, but intentionally removed them from ToDo AND made them ineligible for the ToDo again, like with a manual cancel.

Later on today a few SL items showed up on the ToDo, but only those dated further into the future than those marked CANCELLED on the History List.


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## BigPotty (Dec 26, 2006)

Maybe you're actually getting a power spike or brown out coinciding with the power failure that is causing these behaviors. Computers can do some strange things when the voltages are not right. In any case it wouldn't hurt to run the UPS. A stable voltage supply will probably prolong the life of any piece of electronic equipment.

Speaking of UPSes, I have a 1500va Belkin UPS that I got online for like $130. I am running a 550W PC, a 21 CRT, my network hardware, and my R15 and I'm at about a 30% load. This is the first UPS I've owned so I can't really compare it, but I've had it for almost a year without any problems. We have stable voltage here but our power will go out for like 30 seconds occasionally (our utilities are underground). Just thought I'd suggest it for those who are looking for one...


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I agree with BigPotty - there may be an issue with power spikes. Do you have your R15 on a surge protector (not UPS, but a surge protector)? If so, does that include ALL inputs (e.g. coax inputs from the dish and phone line) vs just power supply? It could be that power spikes are creating noise on your non-power inputs, causing the issue. Those power spikes from coming back from a power outage can be brutal. We have a fried bread machine that attests to that...


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

jpl said:


> I agree with BigPotty - there may be an issue with power spikes. Do you have your R15 on a surge protector (not UPS, but a surge protector)? If so, does that include ALL inputs (e.g. coax inputs from the dish and phone line) vs just power supply? It could be that power spikes are creating noise on your non-power inputs, causing the issue. Those power spikes from coming back from a power outage can be brutal. We have a fried bread machine that attests to that...


I do have a surge protector, but only for power lines. All devices in the entertainment center are protected. But not phone or coax cables.

Maybe it's my backgroung (systems analyst) but I really think this is a s/w issue. I can't believe I'm the only one on these boards that have experienced this problem.

Is there ANY way to clear out the History List? Once a show gets on this list with a CANCELLED status it won't come back. I know this is needed to prevent SLs from restoring a manually cancelled program, but I feel so helpless when I can't bypass such a severe problem.

If they just ALWAYS saved the ToDo list on disk and asked my permission to clear it, I believe this would solve the problem.

And it seems like they should also save all the SETUP data to disk. If so, it wouldn't need to keep asking me for all those preferences. Especially my zip code. I guess without the correct zip code it can't populate my guide list correctly.

I understand that the developers have reserved upwards of 40GB for system use, instead of user space. Stroing such info in disk would only take a few MB at most.

Has this issue been discussed before? That is, why they don't store more info on disk instead of just in RAM?

TIA for any help, besides buying extra equipment to solve D* shortcomings (IMO).


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

raymem55 said:


> I do have a surge protector, but only for power lines. All devices in the entertainment center are protected. But not phone or coax cables.


You specific complaint not withstanding if you don't have *every cable* that connects to your R15 and system protected, you're begging for trouble. If any cable that connects to your R15 or system in general is not protected then your surge protector is nothing more than a power strip and *nothing is protected*.

For many years computers were protected(?) by plugging their power cords into a surge protector only to have a power spike come down the phone line that was plugged into the modem. You can achieve the same *lack of protection* by plugging a UPS or surge protector into an ungrounded 2 wire outlet.

By not properly protecting your R15 and system or ignoring that protection then you are leaving a variable in this equation.

We can't re-engineer the R15 at our level and many questions we pose will never be answered by DTV. The best we can do is to try to help ourselves and the first rule in diagnosing any problem is to start at *square one*. By choosing to ignore square one and start at square three you are making it virtually impossible to diagnose the problem you're having.

Indeed, your problem may be software. Even if you could rewrite the code to fix your problem it wouldn't change the fact that your R15 and system is unprotected.

And BTW, it is the end user's responsibility to install products so they operate in a safe environment and are properly protected. No electronics manufacturer that I've ever seen supplies their product with a competent surge protector or UPS.


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> You specific complaint not withstanding if you don't have *every cable* that connects to your R15 and system protected, you're begging for trouble. If any cable that connects to your R15 or system in general is not protected then your surge protector is nothing more than a power strip and *nothing is protected*.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> And BTW, it is the end user's responsibility to install products so they operate in a safe environment and are properly protected. No electronics manufacturer that I've ever seen supplies their product with a competent surge protector or UPS.


Your points are well taken. I will correct this situation. But what path do I follow after ALL connections are protected and the same problem re-occurs???


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

raymem55 said:


> But what path do I follow after ALL connections are protected and the same problem re-occurs???


Your guess is as good as mine :scratch:


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

raymem55 said:


> I do have a surge protector, but only for power lines. All devices in the entertainment center are protected. But not phone or coax cables.
> 
> Maybe it's my backgroung (systems analyst) but I really think this is a s/w issue. I can't believe I'm the only one on these boards that have experienced this problem.
> 
> ...


What got me thinking that it was the power spike is the fact that you said that just unplugging the unit doesn't lead to the same problem. Have you tried unplugging it since you got 10FA? You may want to give that a shot. I'm also a s/w guy - I'm a s/w engineer - and I also look to analyze problems via process of elimination. If there were a way to (safely) mimic a power surge, I would recommend that. Short of that, if unplugging the unit with 10FA doesn't cause you to lose your to do list, then I have to believe it's due to a power spike. Or... it could be due to time left unplugged. Standard power outages are longer than plug pulls. Maybe it's caused when the unit is powered down for an extended period of time.

My reco - try unplugging it, and leave it unplugged for a little while. Then replug. If the to do list still looks ok, then I have to believe it's a spike caused by the power coming back (there's a difference -- which is why the power companies will tell you to unplug stuff during a power outage, so that when the power DOES come back on, the spike won't kill your stuff).

Either way, I would also reco getting a surge protector that hits every input on your DVR. Radio Shack had one for like $50 when I got my DVR (although, I have to admit my second DVR doesn't have that level of protection... which I will rectify soon). The problem is finding a protector that has 2 coax connections, and a phone connection, without spending like $200.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Actually, I have a real Hail Mary pass type reco for you. The next time you get a power hit, if your todo list is all cancelled, try doing a RBR right after your R15 comes back. Sounds stupid, I know, but it MAY, possibly, clear up your cancelled shows. It doesn't make sense that it would, but with this DVR, you just never know


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

jpl said:


> What got me thinking that it was the power spike is the fact that you said that just unplugging the unit doesn't lead to the same problem. Have you tried unplugging it since you got 10FA? You may want to give that a shot. I'm also a s/w guy - I'm a s/w engineer - and I also look to analyze problems via process of elimination. If there were a way to (safely) mimic a power surge, I would recommend that. Short of that, if unplugging the unit with 10FA doesn't cause you to lose your to do list, then I have to believe it's due to a power spike. Or... it could be due to time left unplugged. Standard power outages are longer than plug pulls. Maybe it's caused when the unit is powered down for an extended period of time.
> 
> My reco - try unplugging it, and leave it unplugged for a little while. Then replug. If the to do list still looks ok, then I have to believe it's a spike caused by the power coming back (there's a difference -- which is why the power companies will tell you to unplug stuff during a power outage, so that when the power DOES come back on, the spike won't kill your stuff).


Competent UPS units have "buck and boost" AC line conditioning AND protection that keeps voltage to the equipment constant.

BTW, in a dry climate you can get a rather nasty static hit down that coax to your entire system. That's why proper grounding is so important and it is code.



jpl said:


> Either way, I would also reco getting a surge protector that hits every input on your DVR. Radio Shack had one for like $50 when I got my DVR (although, I have to admit my second DVR doesn't have that level of protection... which I will rectify soon). The problem is finding a protector that has 2 coax connections, and a phone connection, without spending like $200.


If your second DVR is not protected then your entire system is at risk. Both your DVRs are connected at the multi-switch or at the LNB depending on how your installation is configured.

Panamax makes a nice surge protector with phone, 2 pairs of "F" coax connectors (high enough bandwidth to accomodate DTV & E*), and an equipment protection insurance policy... and it works very well and it's not $200.

I'm a hardware guy


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

jpl said:


> Actually, I have a real Hail Mary pass type reco for you. The next time you get a power hit, if your todo list is all cancelled, try doing a RBR right after your R15 comes back. Sounds stupid, I know, but it MAY, possibly, clear up your cancelled shows. It doesn't make sense that it would, but with this DVR, you just never know


Or you can protect your system from power hits and not bother thinking about them


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> If your second DVR is not protected then your entire system is at risk. Both your DVRs are connected at the multi-switch or at the LNB depending on how your installation is configured.
> 
> Panamax makes a nice surge protector with phone, 2 pairs of "F" coax connectors (high enough bandwidth to accomodate DTV & E*), and an equipment protection insurance policy... and it works very well and it's not $200.
> 
> I'm a hardware guy


All taken care of. I just ran out to Radio Shack, and got the same surge protector that I have on DVR #1. And it was $10 cheaper than when I last bought it! I never thought about it affecting my whole system - but that certainly makes sense. I always figured that that TV/DVR setup was an alternate - not our primary TV, so I just had a surge protector for the power on it.

As for the price of these units, I wish I would have talked to you sooner  The $200 price I'm quoting is the cost of the unit that I saw at Best Buy. They had some moderately priced units for a single coax connector, but not two - the one with two connections was literally $200+ and was over-kill for what I needed - Heck, it would have been cheaper to buy two of the moderately priced ones, and I came real close to doing just that. And the kicker is that the Radio Shack model, if I remember right, is rated for more joules than the BB unit.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Yep, I was right - the BB unit (Monster) - although not the same model that I saw for $200 about 7 - 8 months ago, but similar - is rated for 2590 joules, and the RS unit is rated for 2601 (odd number).


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> Or you can protect your system from power hits and not bother thinking about them


Yeah, I've been pricing them out... it WOULD make it nice when we unexpectedly lose power (especially if it cuts out in the middle of recording a show). Still, hard to justify to my wife  And we don't lose power much at all. Twice a year is about average.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Oh, and one more thing - getting back on topic here. I'm really starting to wonder if the problem is extended power outage, vs. a power spike. When putting in the new surge protector, everything was unplugged for about 20 minutes (I figured while I'm back there I may as well dust a bit). When I powered back up, stuff was a little screwy. Come to think of it, I didn't check the to do list, but what I saw was kinda odd. I hit guide, and was given all of two filters. My favorites lists were all messed up. When I tried to bring up All Channels, I noticed that my locals were nowhere to be found. So I did a RBR, and that took care of it.

The thing is, this unit is a 300. But I'm starting to wonder if the problem isn't the opposite of a power spike - namely when the unit loses all charge.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

jpl said:


> Yeah, I've been pricing them out... it WOULD make it nice when we unexpectedly lose power (especially if it cuts out in the middle of recording a show). Still, hard to justify to my wife  And we don't lose power much at all. Twice a year is about average.


JPL,

All I can tell you is my personal experience.

In the beginning the Dish 721 was every bit as problematic as the R15 is and maybe more. It did random wierd stuff and never the same thing twice in a row.

I applied the basics I learned the hard way with computers and put a small UPS on the 721. Sure enough many odd and random problems disappeared. _I did note that when the 721 required a reboot that the most successful procedure was to unplug it and let it sit at least 15 minutes before plugging it back in. Rebooting with that wait seemed to induce more reliable operation_.

*Putting DVRs on UPS units might not be a luxury but rather a necessity*.

Dish never did get the 721s working as they were advertised originally but that's another story.

I have two R15-300s and both are on small APC UPS units and the (2) coax and phone lines are protected by a Panamax DBS unit. Both my R15s have very few problems.

As for Best Buy, sure they're gonna gouge you on those accessories. That's where their money is.

And those Radio Shack surge protectors, make sure the coax protection has enough bandwith or you're going to have signal problems. Most cheap surge protectors have coax protection that is only rated for OTA antennas or cable, NOT 2-3gHz that DBS requires. In fact, I'd be surprised if that spec is available for so cheap a protector. Check the Panamax units. They are not so expensive on the net


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> JPL,
> 
> All I can tell you is my personal experience.
> 
> ...


Appreciate it, but I really don't have any issues with my signals. And my R15s are very much problem-free -- which tends to just tick off folks on this forum  Now when we move up to HD, then I'll keep what your wrote in mind. My main concern, for now, is just protecting my stuff against power surges, not cleaning up the signal going to either tv. Like I said, thanks for all the good info. Just found the panamax website, which I'm going to bookmark for future reference.


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

jpl said:


> What got me thinking that it was the power spike is the fact that you said that just unplugging the unit doesn't lead to the same problem. Have you tried unplugging it since you got 10FA? You may want to give that a shot. I'm also a s/w guy - I'm a s/w engineer - and I also look to analyze problems via process of elimination. If there were a way to (safely) mimic a power surge, I would recommend that. Short of that, if unplugging the unit with 10FA doesn't cause you to lose your to do list, then I have to believe it's due to a power spike. Or... it could be due to time left unplugged. Standard power outages are longer than plug pulls. Maybe it's caused when the unit is powered down for an extended period of time.
> 
> My reco - try unplugging it, and leave it unplugged for a little while. Then replug. If the to do list still looks ok, then I have to believe it's a spike caused by the power coming back (there's a difference -- which is why the power companies will tell you to unplug stuff during a power outage, so that when the power DOES come back on, the spike won't kill your stuff).
> 
> Either way, I would also reco getting a surge protector that hits every input on your DVR. Radio Shack had one for like $50 when I got my DVR (although, I have to admit my second DVR doesn't have that level of protection... which I will rectify soon). The problem is finding a protector that has 2 coax connections, and a phone connection, without spending like $200.


I do plan to try some experiments with RBR and unplug / plug soon. However, my ToDo list was 60+ items long and took half a day to reconstruct, manually. I'd like to use up at least half of it before risking losing it again.

To be more complete in my description of what happened. My entire neighborhood had two power failures, about 6 days apart. The first one lasted about 40 min., the second was less than 20 seconds. In both cases there was no storm of any kind happening and the phone line still worked (I beliieve it's on a different power grid than house power).

In the first case I did unplug the surge protector and thus all powered devices during the failure, replugging it in only after power was restored. So it seems to me this is the same as an unplug / plug cycle, right??

I want to be clear. Is a D* recommended unplug / plug cycle good or bad for the hardware??

In the second case it was too quick for me to react. In both cases the first prompt screen asked me to choose a language and then put me through the 9 steps of Setup. I could find no way to bypass this. If anyone knows a bypass, please post it.


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

jpl said:


> Actually, I have a real Hail Mary pass type reco for you. The next time you get a power hit, if your todo list is all cancelled, try doing a RBR right after your R15 comes back. Sounds stupid, I know, but it MAY, possibly, clear up your cancelled shows. It doesn't make sense that it would, but with this DVR, you just never know


Thanks. I did try this in both cases and could not get past the SETUP questions.


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## jwd45244 (Aug 18, 2006)

This dag burn R15 did not record anything between last Tuesday Night and last Friday morning. I think I should start a class action law suit. These R15's are POS.



Did I forget to say that we lost power Tuesday night and it did not come back until Friday. Sumpthin about a Snow / Ice storm. I think it was D* trying to mess me up.

"Other than the real loss of power, the above was typed with tongue firmly planted in cheek"


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

raymem55 said:


> In the first case I did unplug the surge protector and thus all powered devices during the failure, replugging it in only after power was restored. So it seems to me this is the same as an unplug / plug cycle, right??
> 
> I want to be clear. Is a D* recommended unplug / plug cycle good or bad for the hardware??
> 
> In the second case it was too quick for me to react. In both cases the first prompt screen asked me to choose a language and then put me through the 9 steps of Setup. I could find no way to bypass this. If anyone knows a bypass, please post it.


As for the unplug/plug for the first power outage, yes, and no. Again, if your coax inputs, and phone line, aren't protected, then they're going to be prone to power spikes (unless you unplugged those as well). As for the D* reco - not sure. I generally just do a RBR. You wouldn't think that those types of power spikes could really do anything to a unit via the coax and phone inputs, but this electrical stuff gets funky. One time we lost phone service - it was right after I put in an extension line myself (spliced into the existing line). I thought I really screwed something up. I called Verizon, and they detected electrical noise on my phone line. They told me to unplug all electrical devices near the phone line. That did the trick.

To be honest, you really do have a head-scratcher of a problem, but that's about the only thing I can think of that may be causing you a problem.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

jpl said:


> You wouldn't think that those types of power spikes could really do anything to a unit via the coax and phone inputs, but this electrical stuff gets funky.


The "ground" outer sheath of coax cable connects to the "chassis ground" of the electronic component. The ground of the coax cable is not isolated from the component's ground.

Electronic devices don't generally have a real wide latitude for voltage requirements and these DVRs are not terribly sophistcated devices. The power supplies and regulating circuits are incredibly "cost effective"  if you know what I mean. 

More PCs have been smoked down the phone line than you'd believe. In the days of dial-up it was too common and proximity lightning strikes on phone lines eat phones at an alarming rate. I have my entire house phone system surge protected in the demark and I've smoked three protection devices in our ten years in this house. That is a spike or surge coming down the phone line big enough to smoke a protection device and I mean smoke.


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> The "ground" outer sheath of coax cable connects to the "chassis ground" of the electronic component. The ground of the coax cable is not isolated from the component's ground.
> 
> Electronic devices don't generally have a real wide latitude for voltage requirements and these DVRs are not terribly sophistcated devices. The power supplies and regulating circuits are incredibly "cost effective"  if you know what I mean.
> 
> More PCs have been smoked down the phone line than you'd believe. In the days of dial-up it was too common and proximity lightning strikes on phone lines eat phones at an alarming rate. I have my entire house phone system surge protected in the demark and I've smoked three protection devices in our ten years in this house. That is a spike or surge coming down the phone line big enough to smoke a protection device and I mean smoke.


I can see how a phone line might spike. For now, I have disconnected it from the R15, since I rarely order any PPV.

But where would spikes come from on the coax cables?

My installation has a dual LNB round dish with an external cable run to a multiswitch. This has four outputs. Each output connects to the existing cable TV lines in my walls. Two for the living room R15 DVR, one for a D11 in the MBdrm and one to a second bdrm, for future use.

I watched the installer connect the dish's ground cable to the long grounding rod next to my electric service box. Isn't that supposed to protect from spikes? If not, what is it's purpose? I'm not a hardware guy.

In both of my power fail instances there was no storm of any kind within 100 miles or more at the time of the power failures. That would seem to preclude any lightning issues.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

subeluvr said:


> The "ground" outer sheath of coax cable connects to the "chassis ground" of the electronic component. The ground of the coax cable is not isolated from the component's ground.
> 
> Electronic devices don't generally have a real wide latitude for voltage requirements and these DVRs are not terribly sophistcated devices. The power supplies and regulating circuits are incredibly "cost effective"  if you know what I mean.
> 
> More PCs have been smoked down the phone line than you'd believe. In the days of dial-up it was too common and proximity lightning strikes on phone lines eat phones at an alarming rate. I have my entire house phone system surge protected in the demark and I've smoked three protection devices in our ten years in this house. That is a spike or surge coming down the phone line big enough to smoke a protection device and I mean smoke.


I agree - I should have said "You wouldn't think it would affect the coax and phone inputs, but it can." But to be honest, I don't think I want to live anywhere near you, if you get surges that can smoke a protection device, and at that rate... 

And I got a real sense of smoking electric components when I took a digital electronics class in college. We had a temperature sensor to hook up to a circuit - just three stinking prongs to put into the breadboard, and we couldn't get it right. We fried several (one of which actually popped) before we realized that we were looking at the specs incorrectly - we were looking bottom up (from the point of view of the prongs), and the specs specified things top down (from the point of view from the top of the IC chip). I can still smell the smoke


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

jpl said:


> I don't think I want to live anywhere near you, if you get surges that can smoke a protection device, and at that rate...


You would be surprised how far a lightning strike can ride a power line.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

raymem55 said:


> I can see how a phone line might spike. For now, I have disconnected it from the R15, since I rarely order any PPV.
> 
> But where would spikes come from on the coax cables?
> 
> ...


You can get a power surge without a lightning strike. When we lost power one time, after it came back my wife saw an orange glow coming from the kitchen followed by a loud pop - that's when the bread machine I mentioned bit the dust. One other question - is your multi-switch powered? If so I would think that could have an effect too, but I'm just guessing.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

raymem55 said:


> I watched the installer connect the dish's ground cable to the long grounding rod next to my electric service box. Isn't that supposed to protect from spikes? If not, what is it's purpose?


Power spikes and "brown-outs" can be caused by numerous things. A bird or squirrel committing suicide on a power line, a large current draw from a commercial user on the same distribution line, a transformer failure, a reclosure being cut back in, and many, many more.

Proper grounding is required by code and is rarely done correctly by DBS installers. DBS installers generally use light gauge wire (for a bonded ground) to connect the dish to your house ground (rod). That wire is supposed to be of susbstantial gauge to carry a lighning hit directly to your house ground. Many DBS installs I've seen had a second ground rod beat into the ground at the dish location. Doing it that way there is a voltage differential between the two grounds.

Here's the thing, you can rely on a proper(?) installation with proper grounding(?) and rely on the power company to provide electricity that never varies from 120VAC and hope that there is never a lightning strike nearby or you can spend a minimal amount of money and KNOW your system is protected. How much did that new 50" plasma HDTV cost?

In the event that the protection device fails to protect your equipment the better quality devices come with a substantial insurance policy to cover those damages and those companies do pay when damages are proven.

Then again, there are people who back up their computers and then there are people who don't and learn the hard way what "no fixed disk present" means.

JMO YMMV


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

subeluvr said:


> Power spikes and "brown-outs" can be caused by numerous things. A bird or squirrel committing suicide on a power line, a large current draw from a commercial user on the same distribution line, a transformer failure, a reclosure being cut back in, and many, many more.
> 
> Proper grounding is required by code and is rarely done correctly by DBS installers. DBS installers generally use light gauge wire (for a bonded ground) to connect the dish to your house ground (rod). That wire is supposed to be of susbstantial gauge to carry a lighning hit directly to your house ground. Many DBS installs I've seen had a second ground rod beat into the ground at the dish location. Doing it that way there is a voltage differential between the two grounds.
> 
> ...


I have zero experience with UPS systems. Do most models have some way of reporting that they are really protecting you? IOW, how can I tell the difference between a period of time when there were no spikes and one where the device saved me from 100 spikes? Do they report when they made a save?

You seem to be knowledgable in this area. Can you suggest a few models that you know are reliable? And that can handle a phone line and two coax feeds besides at least 6 power outlets? If not a specific unit, do you like a certain brand over others? You may reply with a PM if you prefer.


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## raymem55 (Feb 17, 2007)

jpl said:



> You can get a power surge without a lightning strike. When we lost power one time, after it came back my wife saw an orange glow coming from the kitchen followed by a loud pop - that's when the bread machine I mentioned bit the dust. One other question - is your multi-switch powered? If so I would think that could have an effect too, but I'm just guessing.


OK, but here I'm focusing on the coax feeds from the dish. How can they get a power spike that is not lightning related?

My multiswitch is not powered.


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## subeluvr (Jan 14, 2007)

raymem55 said:


> OK, but here I'm focusing on the coax feeds from the dish. How can they get a power spike that is not lightning related?


Static electricity. Warm dry blown by the dish can create quite a "zap" if not grounded properly.

Either you draw a circle around your entire system and protect *every connection* the system has to the outside world or you are not protected.
Spending any money and not protecting everything is a waste of money because it achieves nothing.


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## pegleg (Feb 28, 2008)

carl6 said:


> When the R15 resets (for any reason including power loss) it loses guide data. The to-do list is not accurate until after the guide data rebuilds, which can take 24 to 48 hours.
> 
> Carl


Doesn't this seem a bit odd? The older DVR units, though less powerful, did not have to re-call all this. Why not store it on the hard disk and "replace as needed/update" with new information.


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