# What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?



## Stuart Sweet

On August 16, 2006, a lifetime ago in Internet time, DBSTalk.com user *Que* posted a poll called "Dual Buffers". This was a few days after the first review of the HR20 DVR, and as the second DIRECTV DVR without dual live buffers, it was an important step in letting our friends at DIRECTV know about the importance of that feature.

Since then, that one poll has garnered over 3,600 votes and close to 3,000 responses.

After many of us have lived without DLB's for almost a year, and in light of the recent DLB work-around that's been implemented, the DBSTalk.com moderators believe it's a good time to freshly ask the question of whether or not DLB's still need to be implemented in the strict "DirecTiVo" sense of the word.

We hope to have a civil discussion that will, in the end, help our friends at DIRECTV know what we're thinking.



> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..


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## Stuart Sweet

To summarize the original arguments in favor of dual live buffers:


mark_winn said:


> It allows me to time shift without recording.





Herdfan said:


> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer (...) flipping between 2 recordings is not nearly as easy as a single press of ARROW DOWN or LIVE TV.





newsposter said:


> why not give us what tivo had and a decent amount of people enjoy?





chris_h said:


> I don't have ST (Season Ticket), but you do. You have eight (or so) games on at once, and you want to decide which ones you will watch on the fly. You might even watch a piece of all 8 games. So dual live buffers (DLB) is a must.


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## Stuart Sweet

To summarize the arguments of those who did not express that dual live buffers were a critical need:


HiDefGator said:


> While some serious couch potatoes might consider dual buffers a crucial feature my guess would be that the majority of users have never made use of them.





DTV TiVo Dealer said:


> I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.





Bobman said:


> I rarely watch live TV and do not need dual buffers.





bonscott87 said:


> I've had various DirecTivo's for 5 years now and I don't miss dual buffers, even during Sunday Ticket. I just use the mini-guide (blue button) to quickly move between games or use the red button to bring up the ring of scores and flip around that way.


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## Doug Brott

> So has DirecTV officially responded to why DLB is not offered?


No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
This comment is as official as it is going to get...

DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.​


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## Tom Robertson

I'm definitely in the "Want DLB group" as I use it very often for sports and frequently for breaking news. And the current set of workarounds does not answer how I use DLBs, unfortunately. To me, a good DVR enhances both the recorded viewing experience as well as the live viewing experience. 

DIRECTV has chosen the features they wish to include in the DVR+, many of them improvements to the previous DVR experience. Over time, we will see even more very cool features that have been shown or discussed. Todate, DIRECTV has focused on these features first, believing most users would prefer them over DLB.

DIRECTV has listened to the user community. And they have been very patient as I remind them I would like to see DLB. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott

One thing is for certain, DLB is a hot button for many. I use DLB for NFL Sunday Ticket and little else simply because most content I watch is recorded. I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK.


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## Stuart Sweet

*The Rules:*

What we'd like to do is have a targeted discussion, not unlike the issues threads we use for new software releases. That means:

Voting will be anonymous. This is not a petition, and please do not feel pressured to vote for the popular choice if it doesn't reflect your opinion.
If the argument you would like to make has already been stated above, there's no need to "+1" or pile on in any way. We'd like to keep this a manageable discussion, on topic.
This forum is so strong because we value each other's opinions, and we each use our DVRs differently. Let's respect that.

Finally, while the old "Dual Buffers" thread is still going to be around, it will be closed to discussion so we can begin anew. And remember, all DBSTalk.com rules apply, including that we allow no petitions, no insults of other members, and we ask that you keep a civil tone.

Thanks, and let the games begin!


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## Stuart Sweet

As for me, I'm currently in the "might use, but can live without" camp. I don't watch live TV much. I think the greatest thing about our user community is that different people use the equipment different ways, so I firmly support your right to ask for a feature you want!


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## Michael D'Angelo

Any chance of changing this from "I *might* use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them." to "I *would* use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them."

That would be my pick.


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## anubys

proud to be the first to vote...I love my HR20 but would love it more with DLB...


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## Doug Brott

BMoreRavens said:


> Any chance of changing this from "I *might* use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them." to "I *would* use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them."
> 
> That would be my pick.


I'm pretty sure that "would" is a subset of "might" in this case :grin: YMMV.


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## Lord Vader

While I do not live in Cook County, can those who do live there vote as often as they wish? After all, that's how it's normally done there.


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## Que

Wow 5 vote options! NO, Maybe,Maybe, yes and a hell yes!

I like to see where this goes but, I think there are too many options to get a good idea.


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## Stuart Sweet

Please, the point here is to have a fair, targeted discussion.


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## mightythor88

DLB is a must have. DoD that isnt HD is useless to me, and while I would like MRV to be implemented I can live without it. 

If it wasnt for Directv's exclusive Sunday Ticket deal I would shop around for another provider .

I have had an Hr20-700 since March in my bedroom and have grown used to it, but I still use my HDTivo as my main viewing. 

I watch a lot of Live TV and honestly am exceedingly frustrated by posts saying Directv doesnt think DLB is important.

If DLB isnt a patent issue and it is purely a choice by Directv not to implement it - then they are ignoring a big part of their customer base.

I use DLB daily, so to me it is the most important feature they could make happen.


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## DCSholtis

Voted option 1. It's not important to me. Wouldn't use it/could care less about DLB.


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## say-what

I never used DLB much and I'd like it as an option, but it's no deal breaker.


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## Smuuth

There are many features of the HR series that I view as improved compared to the HR10. The lack of a true DLB feature is the only thing I still miss from the Tivo. Can I live without it? Yes, but I would definitely use it if it were implemented.


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## cadet502

I often used DLB on my HR10, but without the pause to watch 2 programs as some do. I simply used it to switch from one game to another, and if something interesting had happened. (big change in scoring, missing drivers) I could rewind and see the action (touchdowns or wrecks). I'm not sure if the current workaround can handle this action, as I didn't use pause in my use of DLB, I have not really tried the workaround.

If I had to choose between 90 min buffer and 2 - 30 min buffers, I still think I would take the 2 30s, but if it were user choice, that would be sweet.


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## Sirshagg

I never "really" used it on my HR10 and I wouldn't use it if the HR20 had it but I can understand why so many people want it and I wish DirecTv would add it just to shut you all up


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## glennb

I see 3 people voted - Until DLBs are implemented, I would get a DVR+ unit.
 

Enjoy those 5 HD channels you can get with the DIRECTV HDTiVo with DLBs.


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## Snoofie

I would use DLB often. I like to flip around channels a lot and I used to switch tuners on my Tivo all the time and just keep tuner 1 on whatever I was "watching" and then flip around on tuner 2 to see if there was something better on. If I decided that I wanted to save what was on tuner 1 I would record it. I understand the workaround for the current DVR's, but I just don't do it. Too many button presses and I would forget to delete what was on the other tuner recording and then have to go back and do that.


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## houskamp

Would never use it.. can hardly folow one show much less 2...


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## Indiana627

I really wish D* would implement DLB on the HR2x. Two 45 minute DLBs would be great - I never find myself using the 90 minute buffer - OK, maybe once or twice in the 8 months I've had it - but nothing like how often I did use DLB on the HR10 or how often I would use DLB on the HR20. This to me is the biggest drawback of the HR20. I know the other tuner is justing sitting there tuned to another station, yet I can't get to it. Every once and awhile, I hit the down arrow button on the remote just in the hope I'll magically be taken to the other tuner (especially after a new CE).

I know D* has been very responsive acting on the wish list items, but DLB has been near the top or #1 for a long time I think yet has not been acted upon. I know it's sometimes easier to knock off the lesser important and easier to do items on any kind of list, but I really hope D* starts work on this soon if indeed they have any intention of implementing it.


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## Doug Brott

cadet502 said:


> I often used DLB on my HR10, but without the pause to watch 2 programs as some do. I simply used it to switch from one game to another, and if something interesting had happened. (big change in scoring, missing drivers) I could rewind and see the action (touchdowns or wrecks). I'm not sure if the current workaround can handle this action, as I didn't use pause in my use of DLB, I have not really tried the workaround.
> 
> If I had to choose between 90 min buffer and 2 - 30 min buffers, I still think I would take the 2 30s, but if it were user choice, that would be sweet.


This point is understandable and is a limitation of the workaround. The "Live" portion can continue unpaused, but the recording will auto-pause when you switch over to the live tuner.

You can half-do what you are talking about, but the workaround does not fully work that way.


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## Stuart Sweet

I wonder how many people have tried the workaround for more than a little while to see if it would really suit them?


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## anubys

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wonder how many people have tried the workaround for more than a little while to see if it would really suit them?


I did it every Sunday for the NFL games...I recorded two games and switched between them...the back button takes you to the list, then you press up/down then play...

it's not as easy as a one-button press like on the HR10...and, of course, if I decide to watch a different game is a chore since I have to kill one recording and start another...

I prefer the HR10's way...


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## bhorstkotte

I never had an HR10, so I have no idea what it had - I do miss the DirecTivo approach though - down arrow to switch between buffers, that was a great feature that I used all the time. Start watching a show, hit pause, down arrow to other buffer; repeat until sleepy.


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## Doug Brott

bhorstkotte said:


> I never had an HR10, so I have no idea what it had - I do miss the DirecTivo approach though - down arrow to switch between buffers, that was a great feature that I used all the time. Start watching a show, hit pause, down arrow to other buffer; repeat until sleepy.


The HR10 is a TiVo, so it worked in the same way as the receiver that you were using.


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## Sharkie_Fan

Stuart Sweet said:


> As for me, I'm currently in the "might use, but can live without" camp. I don't watch live TV much. I think the greatest thing about our user community is that different people use the equipment different ways, so I firmly support your right to ask for a feature you want!


I'm in the "would definately use, but can live without".

I don't generally watch multiple games at one time. However, if the wife and kids are home while there's a hockey game going on, I would, on occasion, turn on a kids show, or a family show, and just flip over to the Sharks game during commercials on the family show.

Without DLB, it just means that the hockey game stays on, and if they want to watch something else, they can enjoy it on another TV.

It's a nice feature, and it would definately get used in our house, but it's not so important that you'll see me campaigning for its addition. I don't oppose it, but it's just not MY hot button issue.


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## Dr. Booda

anubys said:


> I did it every Sunday for the NFL games...I recorded two games and switched between them...the back button takes you to the list, then you press up/down then play...
> 
> it's not as easy as a one-button press like on the HR10...and, of course, if I decide to watch a different game is a chore since I have to kill one recording and start another...
> 
> I prefer the HR10's way...


Agreed. Having to record and then delete programs via the work around is too tedious for the daily (or hourly) "DLB" user. A one button function is preferred.


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## jimb726

I took the middle road. I would prefer to have them but I can live with the workaround. I used it extensively on the HR10, and adapted to life recording both at the same time, but being able to pause live and watch recorder seems to be ok to me. Actually one nice thing when recording both was, no one could accidentally change the live channel. They would get the message and have to physically choose to terminate one of the two recordings. Not someone can just jump on and erase the live buffer


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## gpg

cadet502 said:


> I often used DLB on my HR10, but without the pause to watch 2 programs as some do. I simply used it to switch from one game to another, and if something interesting had happened. (big change in scoring, missing drivers) I could rewind and see the action (touchdowns or wrecks). I'm not sure if the current workaround can handle this action, as I didn't use pause in my use of DLB, I have not really tried the workaround.


That's the same way that I use DLB during football and baseball seasons, and it's the primary reason why the workaround doesn't work for me.


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## jgriffin7

The HR20-700 (simply based on my experience with my HR20-700) has DLB.

Let that soak in.

It buffers (the 'B' part) live TV (the 'L' part) on both tuners (the 'D' part). You just have no way to switch between them. 

For me, not being able to switch is what's so frustrating about this. D*, please give us a way to switch to what is already there!


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## jheda

Tom I agree with your post, and kudos for expressing it so well. Like you, I have been a (respectful) advocate for DLB. In fact when I was first in south florida to recieve an HR20 9/06. I found this amazing site trying to figure out what i was doing wrong that I couldnt utilize the feature. Hell i didnt even know what the feature was called.

I voted I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, as the current work-around is OK. I have learned to work with it and love the hr2x to the extent that i can deal with the SLB. I am greatful DTV paid attention to us and implimented the SLB.

Stuart I dont quite see the difference between _I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. 11 9.17% 
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. 74 61.67% 
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. 3 2.50%_

Already the trend illustrates almost a 2/3 strong desire for DLB. That is in line with the QUE poll. Some will find reasons to undermine this poll, as they did the previous, but the important thing is DTV knows a strong desire for this feature. I respect that for now it is not in their plans to impliment, but cross my fingers in the future it will be.



Tom Robertson said:


> I'm definitely in the "Want DLB group" as I use it very often for sports and frequently for breaking news. And the current set of workarounds does not answer how I use DLBs, unfortunately. To me, a good DVR enhances both the recorded viewing experience as well as the live viewing experience.
> 
> DIRECTV has chosen the features they wish to include in the DVR+, many of them improvements to the previous DVR experience. Over time, we will see even more very cool features that have been shown or discussed. Todate, DIRECTV has focused on these features first, believing most users would prefer them over DLB.
> 
> DIRECTV has listened to the user community. And they have been very patient as I remind them I would like to see DLB.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


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## jgrade

Lord Vader said:


> While I do not live in Cook County, can those who do live there vote as often as they wish? After all, that's how it's normally done there.


What's the point? Daley is going to win no matter how many votes he gets. The man is immune (along with his man Jesse White).

Voted don't care. Honestly, I haven't had a problem with my viewing habits.


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## sbelmont

I'm in the "I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate" group. In just the few weeks I've had my HR20's I've wanted to check a show on the other tuner quite a few times. One of the issues with the workaround is having other things set to record before the current program is over. Then you have to set a manual recording. This is also an issue during the NFL SP as some early games last past the start of the late games in the guide. I normally set the late games to record so I don't miss the beginning. I may watch one game live and then opt to switch to other games to see what is going on. I use the other tuner to jump between the other games. Easy to do on the HR10, complicated on the HR20.

On another topic, I'd rather have the 50 series link limit taken away first. We hit it very quick with all the shows on hiatus during the writer's strike. No work around without mutiple receivers.


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## SledgeHammer

Although I voted, I don't see the point of this poll. Yes, there are people who want HR10 style DLB (like me) and yes there are some people who are "OK without it". But I have yet to see a *single* person say "No, I don't want it". So whats the problem? Just implement the damn thing already!  Its not like there are anti-DLB people.


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## Stuart Sweet

SledgeHammer said:


> Although I voted, I don't see the point of this poll. Yes, there are people who want HR10 style DLB (like me) and yes there are some people who are "OK without it". But I have yet to see a *single* person say "No, I don't want it". So whats the problem? Just implement the damn thing already!  Its not like there are anti-DLB people.


I think there are people who are indifferent to it and would rather see the programming resources spent doing something else.


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## Richierich

I definitely miss my Tivo's functions such as DLB & LIVE TV BUTTON!!!


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## mightythor88

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think there are people who are indifferent to it and would rather see the programming resources spent doing something else.


I understand this point, but then again there are those of us with Slingboxes who didnt think "directv" needed to use their time and resources on the mobile scheduler when DLB is much more of a daily use option to some of us. If I could buy a $100-200 box that gave me DLB with my HR2x, I would order it right now.

I understand needing DoD to compete with cable but they better get everything in HD asap if they truly want to have an apples to apples DoD comparison.

Of all the "advancements" with the HR2x series, I would still be much happier if they just had enabled my 2 Hr10's that I paid $1k each for in 2004 to be future ready and able to work with the new Mpeg4 channels.


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## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think there are people who are indifferent to it and would rather see the programming resources spent doing something else.


:sure: Yeah, like bumping up episode keep limits from 5 to 10 .

As for DoD, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I have yet to find much to watch on there. Yeah, they have a few movies here and there, but most of the stuff is very obscure.


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## Richierich

You would have to replace your "chipset" with one that could decode the MPEG-4 signal and GOD knows what they would charge for that but that shouldn't be that difficult to do if you are a technician.


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## JACKIEGAGA

I would love to see DLB but only if the buffers were 90 min. I rather use the work around if the buffers are 30min


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## gcisko

After over a year I think it is definately time for DLB. In AUG 06 I can certainly see where the HR20 has other issues. But now after all of the progress, I think the time has certainly come. IMHO this feature if implemented would be used by many people that do not understand it's nuts and bolts. It would just get used... Alot so much that it would become something all would rely on perhaps without knowing it.


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## qprhooligan

I loved having DLB on my older tivo units. I would rate it as the #1 thing I miss about my new HR21. I would pay extra for the feature I miss it that much. From every vote I have seen on this issue I can't beleive D* isn't adding it.


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## gcisko

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think there are people who are indifferent to it and would rather see the programming resources spent doing something else.


Not if DLB were implemented. For example I would much rather see DLB than moving/fixing (whatever you want to call it) TODO. I can fix the current TODO with a macro program in my universal. No way to do that with DLB.


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## armophob

I never took the work around seriously due to reliability issues on the pause. This may be repaired now, but I still have faith issues. I have succumbed to just recording both and watching them later. I would enjoy very much DLB to be able to watch 2 shows at once and to pass back and forth between them at commercial time. The workaround makes matters more frustrating due to the fact that all the abilities are clearly possible, just not automatic through the firmware.


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## ToddinVA

The HR20/21 will never be a state of the art DVR until DLB is implemented on it. * As stated many times in the other thread, DLB is implemented on almost every other dual-tuner DVR out there, not just TiVo. *I have an HR10 and an HR20 and even with the new SLB workaround, I just cannot and will not use the HR20 as my primary DVR until DLB is fully implemented on it. My HR10 will stay in use until that day comes. I can live without TiVo Suggestions (even though I really like that feature), but I can't live without DLB based upon how I watch TV during parts of the day. :nono2:


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## leww37334

The problem is: the implementation of DLB will probably adversely effect some other feature of the HR-20, such as buffer length, as mentioned earlier.

The question probably should be "what are you willing to give up in order to get DLB?". 

I am not sure I would give up the 90 minute buffer for DLB.


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## bonscott87

If it's there I'll probably use it at times otherwise I personally don't need it. Main reason is that I don't watch much live TV and even then it's delayed to avoid commercials. Only exception is Sunday Ticket which I refuse to watch on a DVR. I want the lightning fast response and interactive experience that a non-DVR (H21) can give and I'll take that any day over DLB.

Again, just my personal opinion.


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## ToddinVA

leww37334 said:


> The problem is: the implementation of DLB will probably adversely effect some other feature of the HR-20, such as buffer length, as mentioned earlier.
> 
> The question probably should be "what are you willing to give up in order to get DLB?".
> 
> I am not sure I would give up the 90 minute buffer for DLB.


I don't see what DLB has to do with buffer length other than it taking up more space ongoing, but if the buffer had to be lessened to 30 or 60 minutes to get DLB, that's fine with me...


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## puffnstuff

leww37334 said:


> The problem is: the implementation of DLB will probably adversely effect some other feature of the HR-20, such as buffer length, as mentioned earlier.
> 
> The question probably should be "what are you willing to give up in order to get DLB?".
> 
> I am not sure I would give up the 90 minute buffer for DLB.


All of it media share , DOD , MRV , buffer length . I don't need any of those to view TV the way I want , and I already have things that do a better job than the HR .


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## armophob

leww37334 said:


> The problem is: the implementation of DLB will probably adversely effect some other feature of the HR-20, such as buffer length, as mentioned earlier.
> 
> The question probably should be "what are you willing to give up in order to get DLB?".
> 
> I am not sure I would give up the 90 minute buffer for DLB.


Has that really been made a condition? If that is a valid claim then it should be part of the poll. I would certainly change my vote.


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## Herdfan

Why the current workaround is inadequate for my use:

I like to be able to watch 3+ games at once. One is my main game that I want a full buffer so I can go back to see any play I missed. Yes, this can be obtained by a clunky method of List>find program>select, but the one button (down arrow) to return to the game of choice while keeping my last game was very nice.

With one game saved in buffer, I can use the other buffer to flip between other games and 701 knowing my main game is waiting for me.

So while the workaround will sort of work it still is less than what we had with the HR10. Now that ST is going MEPG-4, I won't be able to use my HR10's in 2008.

One additional workaround would be to use one of the colored buttons in toggel form to return to the last played recording and restart it and then back to live. That would give me almost what I had with the HR10.


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## BubblePuppy

When I had D* with Tivo I used DLB all the time. I was very disappointed when I "upgraded to the HR20-700 and found out it didn't have it.
When I went with Comcost it took me 4 months before I realized that the C*dvr did have it (called swap). However I only used it a few times. Now that I'm back with D* I would really like to have it so if I want to use DLB I can. 
It's better to have it and use it few times than not to have it and miss it.


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## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wonder how many people have tried the workaround for more than a little while to see if it would really suit them?


It does not.

I used the DLBs to basically casually watch and surf live tv with the ability to rewind either tuner at will

e.g. maybe cnbc on one tuner, flip to the other tuner, surf around, find something interesting, hit a commercial, flip back to cnbc see if I missed anything of interest, perhaps change that tuner to something else, etc etc etc. very easy, very elegant, very intuitive.

This is just not doable in a reasonable way with the work around.

Perhaps if you wanted to anchor to something that lasted hours like a game (that is assuming the game doesn't run over what the schedule has for it) and do some limited surfing on the other tuner. IMO the workaround is a kludge at best. The record button in the work around anchors it to a show not a station so when the show is over your anchor is gone requiring you to reanchor. That it requires a anchor at all and you have to do your own garbage collection is a giant PITA

I just don't care about the arguments that this is a DVR+ not a TiVo etc. etc. etc. Expectations were set with DVR functionality with D*s first DVRs, that was a TiVO, I don't care that it is not the tivo software, but I have expectations that there is a continuity of capabilities (with obvious exceptions for IP issues).

Historically D* did a very poor job with the HR20, they did a terrible job of software quality control, IMO it all felt very rushed to market with very little concern of quality control. Now that being said reliability has improved tremendously with the multitude of bug fixes that have been delivered. It still amazes me that some of the basics like functional dual tuners and supporting more that 50 series appear to be totally missed by D* and at times I feel like it is more like stubbornness by whom ever is managing the product features inside of D*. I think I could finally be happy with the HR20 if they would just fix these 2 issues, but honestly that, and every time I have to go in and delete a hiatus show from the series list are out of room are both so annoying when I mix that into all the crap I dealt with the first 9 months of the HR20 and all the bugs (yes I know it is emotional baggage but it takes a lot of ata boys to make up for the pile of aw sh!ts they dumped on the in their buggy code release), I get all riled up about how annoying I find D* when it comes to this box and my experience as a customer.

Now before all the D* fan boys jump in (you know who your are) and make insinuations about how I should love it leave D*, don't bother wasting your time. Oh don't tell and don't tell me how grate it is to have mpeg4, I don't care about mpg4 or 2 ect., that is a D* problem on how to deliver content, it doesn't do jack for me, they needed to do it to put more data on their network it does not improve my viewing experience, I don't care what they do internally it doesn't make the HR20 a better box over a TIVO or any other DVR, but I do care about how I can manage and use that content on my DVR. So I do teeter on the edge of leaving D*, but I have an investment in my infrastructure and understanding of how everything works, so don't tell me what I should do, or what a core feature of a DVR is, I know what my expectations are, one of those are working DLB or what ever you want to call it.


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## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wonder how many people have tried the workaround for more than a little while to see if it would really suit them?


I have used it and it's an adequate workaround.

Not as convenient as true *DLB* nor as flexible but it is functional.

Mike


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## Drew2k

I selected "I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate."

The work-around is great to allow swapping, but it has the drawback that it still requires disk space to record one of the two programs. Until an option is available that does not require recording, the workaround is by definition inadequate, because one of the buffers it not "live" - it is "recorded".


----------



## TigerDriver

I rarely watch live TV and do not need dual buffers. I do, however, recognize that many DirecTV customers have different viewing requirements that can be fulfilled only with dual buffers.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Although I voted, I don't see the point of this poll. Yes, there are people who want HR10 style DLB (like me) and yes there are some people who are "OK without it". But I have yet to see a *single* person say "No, I don't want it". So whats the problem? Just implement the damn thing already!  Its not like there are anti-DLB people.


This thread is a place to vent (appropriately) as well as discuss the current situation. The poll is simply a way to quantize it.


----------



## cadet502

Doug Brott said:


> This point is understandable and is a limitation of the workaround. The "Live" portion can continue unpaused, but the recording will auto-pause when you switch over to the live tuner.
> 
> You can half-do what you are talking about, but the workaround does not fully work that way.


As I thought about it some more, one other thing that I tended to do was record one or both games/races on the HR10 so I wouldn't lose the buffer accidently. I just tested recording two shows and using "prev" to swap between them. Using "prev" with two shows recording swaps between shows at the live spot and allows rewinding to see what was missed.

So, while the slb workaround method fails me, the current system mimics DLB "the way I use it" for 80% of my usage. There are times I would have a Primary event and 2 other events, and the workaround is still not usable for me in that way.


----------



## Sixto

The HR20/HR21 is far superior to the HR10, but DLB is still much desired.

Will wait as long as it takes to be able to hit the down arrow to get to that other tuner. With my 750GB, having two 90-minute buffers would be optimal.

Will wait as long as it takes and not complain. Just hopeful that someday DLB makes it to the top of the queue.


----------



## General Custer

What's the point of the new poll? Are they actually considering implementing DLB? If this poll is not intended to help influence Directv to add the feature, then the old thread should have been left as the DLB thread. Why rehash everything again if it is not going to change minds at Directv. Secondly closing the old thread means you have given in to the very vocal minority who hate DLB and have demanded that the thread be closed.


----------



## Drew2k

General Custer said:


> What's the point of the new poll? Are they actually considering implementing DLB? If this poll is not intended to help influence Directv to add the feature, then the old thread should have been left as the DLB thread. Why rehash everything again if it is not going to change minds at Directv. Secondly closing the old thread means you have given in to the very vocal minority who hate DLB and have demanded that the thread be closed.


See the first posts... Clearly explains the reason for a new poll.


----------



## General Custer

Drew2k said:


> See the first posts... Clearly explains the reason for a new poll.


Again, without this influencing Directv it is just giving in to the Anti-DLB crowd. Its just a way to dilute the request and justify not implementing the feature.


----------



## puffnstuff

General Custer said:


> Again, without this influencing Directv it is just giving in to the Anti-DLB crowd. Its just a way to dilute the request and justify not implementing the feature.


Exactly my feelings . I mean in the small sample here it is almost the same as before .


----------



## Tom Robertson

Let us keep the discussion to DLB not the moderation of the threads... 

DIRECTV knows the interest, knows very well. (I bug them regularly.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## puffnstuff

Tom Robertson said:


> Let us keep the discussion to DLB not the moderation of the threads...
> 
> DIRECTV knows the interest, knows very well. (I bug them regularly.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Sorry about that , I just don't want to hear the same arguements anymore . Hopefully this won't go that way and will stay more OT .


----------



## anubys

puffnstuff said:


> Sorry about that , I just don't want to hear the same arguements anymore . Hopefully this won't go that way and will stay more OT .


I took this new thread to mean that D* wants to see the results...I was very encouraged...

Tom: please keep bugging them about it...I can't imagine why anyone -- even someone who would not use DLB -- not to want to have the option of having it...

my opinion would change (I very much want DLB) only if the "price" (i.e. what would I NOT get) of DLB is too high...right now, I don't know of any price...


----------



## ATARI

As in all previous DLB polls, I voted Yes, I really would like it the way it used to be on my TiVo.

I use DLB the most during football season, so if D* could get it implemented by September, that would be great!


----------



## Richierich

DLB is one of the reasons that I kept my 2 HR10-250s (1 with 1.5 TB & the other with 600GB). I record ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, ESPN, ETC. (all the MPEG-2 stuff) on the HR10-250s,

I then use the HR21-700s do record all the other MPEG-4 stuff.

Therefore, most of my Sports Recordings will be in HD on the HR10-250s so I can use the TIVO's DLB when I am watching sports. I have the BEST of both worlds. I don't understand why so many people got rid of their HR10-250s and didn't keep them when they got their HR20/HR21. I must be missing something here!!!

That said. I cannot understand why when Directv was planning their DVR they didn't look at every feature & functionality of the HR10-250 and decide to keep those things that we want & like so much. It would be so easy to determine such as having polls at DBSTALK & AVSFORUM etc. to find out just what their future potential customer base wanted!!! 

Getting rid of the LIVE TV button & the DLB makes no sense, I don't see the savings that Directv would derive by eliminating these 2 functions.


----------



## jheda

There has NEVER been any moderator who said with any certainty that the implimentation of DLB would be at the cost of ANY other feature...


armophob said:


> Has that really been made a condition? If that is a valid claim then it should be part of the poll. I would certainly change my vote.


----------



## Game Fan

DLB can't be implemented soon enough. The work around is cumbersome, but is better than nothing. With baseball season just a few weeks away, DLB would greatly enhance my viewing pleasure.


----------



## ceored

I agree with btmoore-

DLB changed the way that I watched TV. It was a hard call for me to move to the HR21 since it lacked DLB. In the few days that I have had it I have missed significant portions of games and shows because I was unable to properly setup the recordings especially when games/shows go over the specified time. I could spend the time to record everything and make sure I get everything, but my thought is why would you make a consumer product harder to use? I am primarily a live tv watcher as I don't have a ton of time for tv and DLB gave me a flexibility that the new workaround cannot. 

P.S. The software is also disappointing, especially since the CE is in my opinion way more stable than the NR.


----------



## Tom Robertson

At this point, no one is certain what the conditions of getting DLB might be. There are features that might be delayed; there are features that might be adjusted (like a single 90 minute buffer or 2 buffers of another length).

One thing good about discussion is we get to voice how or what we would and would not be willing to sacrifice to get DLB or get DLB sooner.

(By this year's NFL season would be nice.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SledgeHammer

Well guys, I don't think anybody that *really* knows how to use DLB on the HR10 can say its not a useful feature. Granted, its worthless if you only watch recorded shows. But recording one channel, then having to go back and delete it and go into playlists or use hidden key sequences, etc. is such a worthless work around, its not even worth using.

Swapping buffers with the down key... how much simpler could it get?

As for giving up time on the live buffer... not a big deal. If you go off for 90 minutes to do something else, why wouldn't you just record the show? Thats more time then most shows even are.

I admit that 30 minutes is maybe a bit on the low side as I've gotten hit by that before. I'd be happy with 60min DLB. I think thats the right amount of time. Hell, I'd even be happy with 30min DLB.

Yes, there are certainly tons of usability problems on the HR2x and there are also things it does way nicer then the HR10 does. Some of the usability shortfalls on the HR2x is not more then a 2min code change, so I can't fathom why they don't do that.

I can understand DLB is a bigger project though.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'd like to see PIP one day in addition to DLB. I'd like to be able to "see" whats on both tuners, its really good for sports.

Otherwise I'd like to see it work like the HR10. But in the meantime, the "work around" is working fine for me.


----------



## armophob

Tom Robertson said:


> Let us keep the discussion to DLB not the moderation of the threads...
> 
> DIRECTV knows the interest, knows very well. (I bug them regularly.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Well, one last comment. Cudos to Stuart to taking his most pointy stick and jabbing it directly into this hornets nest and thrashing it back and forth.


----------



## Drew2k

I do not want to give up 90 minutes buffers ... I find I catch a lot of shows simply by rewinding or pressing REC to capture everything in the buffer.

If it was a choice of shorter buffers or DLB .. I might have to change my vote.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

armophob said:


> Well, one last comment. Cudos to Stuart to taking his most pointy stick and jabbing it directly into this hornets nest and thrashing it back and forth.


I'm like the scrubbing bubble of DBSTalk, I work hard so you don't have to.


----------



## jheda

And, Drew my friend, no one has said we would HAVE TO CHOOSE...so no worries


Drew2k said:


> I do not want to give up 90 minutes buffers ... I find I catch a lot of shows simply by rewinding or pressing REC to capture everything in the buffer.
> 
> If it was a choice of shorter buffers or DLB .. I might have to change my vote.


----------



## JerryAndGail

I'm in the "I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate" group.

With two HR-10's, one R15, and one HR21 I can say I am spoiled with the DLB's on the HR-10's. It's something I really miss on the others. Of course, DLB and PIP would really be a plus.

I would think DLB could be done without reducing buffer time. The buffer is really the hard drive so I would think any reasonable amount could be allocated.

my $.02


----------



## Drew2k

jheda said:


> And, Drew my friend, no one has said we would HAVE TO CHOOSE...so no worries


True ... but there's always the possibility, so I'm just trying to prevent it! 

Here's what Tom posted earlier that prompted my reply (bold emphasis added by me):



Tom Robertson said:


> At this point, no one is certain what the conditions of getting DLB might be. There are features that might be delayed; *there are features that might be adjusted (like a single 90 minute buffer or 2 buffers of another length)*.
> 
> One thing good about discussion is w*e get to voice how or what we would and would not be willing to sacrifice to get DLB or get DLB sooner*.
> 
> (By this year's NFL season would be nice.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom's not saying we will have shorter buffers, but that is one possibility of countless possibilities for what may have to change to implement DLB. The shortening of the 90 minute buffer is not something I'm interested in, even if it means no DLB for me.


----------



## jheda

statistics is amazing. So far still extremely consistent with the Que poll!!! And if there are no breaches, the sampling size now appears to be large enough not to change the ultimate result.....


----------



## jheda

Gotcha. And i respect your opinion. what is it that you would miss if itwere 2 buffers that went to 30? what if it went to 45 or 60? Is it just that lucky tv turn on "oops i missed this" or do you conciously use the 90 minute buffer for anything?



Drew2k said:


> True ... but there's always the possibility, so I'm just trying to prevent it!
> 
> Here's what Tom posted earlier that prompted my reply (bold emphasis added by me):
> 
> Tom's not saying we will have shorter buffers, but that is one possibility of countless possibilities for what may have to change to implement DLB. The shortening of the 90 minute buffer is not something I'm interested in, even if it means no DLB for me.


----------



## carl6

Drew2k said:


> I do not want to give up 90 minutes buffers ... I find I catch a lot of shows simply by rewinding or pressing REC to capture everything in the buffer.
> 
> If it was a choice of shorter buffers or DLB .. I might have to change my vote.


I agree completely with this post. I do find myself regularly using the 90 minute buffer, more than I think I would use dual live buffers if they were available. As a result, I would love to see dual live 90 minute buffers, but would not want to see any shorter buffer.

Carl


----------



## puffnstuff

jheda said:


> statistics is amazing. So far still extremely consistent with the Que poll!!! And if there are no breaches, the sampling size now appears to be large enough not to change the ultimate result.....


Wierd huh


----------



## mikeinthekeys

Apart from intentional uses of DLB, sometimes when cruising through the guide, I "accidentally" change the channel, thereby dumping the buffer. This really pisses me off! So for me, having the 10-250 approach would be great. It also sometimes happens when watching a program and looking at the playlist. One button press sometimes turns into two, thanks to "key bounce" we have all seen, and voila! the buffer is dumped. So I miss DLB, and I want it back. It is the RIGHT way for DVRs to work (IMHO), and I want it back. Seems to me we could choose single or double, divvying up the 90 minutes' allotment of space.


----------



## dennisj00

I can't believe that it would take too much code to give two 45 minute buffers and switch between them with the down arrow. . . maybe an afternoon of one developer??? (Most of these 'guys' don't produce until later in the day!)

It had to take one line of code to give the somewhat over emphasized 'feature' of the 10 program save in the last CE. A feature that had to please at least a couple of people instead of 3000 from the DLB thread.

One line could also increase the 50 SL limit Yes, it might slow down adding the next series record but we understand that.

I've done development and managed developers on stand-alone boxes and multi-tier integrated systems. I've been involved with the CE program since September '07 and still don't understand why fundamental DVR issues like audio burps, bad LNBs, or slow GUI are still around.

It seems like every CE fixes one item and breaks 3 others?

End of rant. I don't understand why DLB isn't here. It can't be that difficult or a show stopper for other features. If it is a show stopper, just say why.


----------



## Green23

jgriffin7 said:


> The HR20-700 (simply based on my experience with my HR20-700) has DLB.
> 
> Let that soak in.
> 
> It buffers (the 'B' part) live TV (the 'L' part) on both tuners (the 'D' part). You just have no way to switch between them.
> 
> For me, not being able to switch is what's so frustrating about this. D*, please give us a way to switch to what is already there!


I agree--- DLB is a simple concept- 2 independent tuners in the box and the ability to view either one while they are recording buffers. The DVR+ tuners seem to be *dependent *ones, as you have to actually start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds. Many other systems allow DLB.

Let us switch between the tuners!!!


----------



## Drew2k

jheda said:


> Gotcha. And i respect your opinion. what is it that you would miss if itwere 2 buffers that went to 30? what if it went to 45 or 60? Is it just that lucky tv turn on "oops i missed this" or do you conciously use the 90 minute buffer for anything?


I've often jumped back to the beginning of the 90 minute buffer when I have the tuner on a local network channel, so that I can catch the early news when something "big" has happened.

With regard to recording the buffer, it's all a "luck" thing ...

If I have left the TV on the Science HD channel, for instance, and come home to see part of something I find interesting, I like that I can just hit RECORD and capture everything in the buffer, so I can watch from the beginning from the playlist. A 90 minute buffer gives me that flexibility to record and capture an entire 60 minute program even if I catch it in the last minute. Even if I don't catch that last minute,with a 90 minute buffer I have an extra 29 minutes to rewind to capture it. I have often caught a program within the first 15 minutes of it being on, rewound to the beginning, rewound too far, saw what was playing before, and decided to press REC on that earlier program. I can't do that with only a 60 minute buffer, definitely can't do that with a 45 or 30 minute buffer.

The 90 minute buffer is just something I have loved right from the start. I love that it's not the paltry 30 minutes you get on TiVo, which I used for 4 years prior to the DVR+.

Speaking of other benefits of the DVR+ buffer, I love that if I press REC on the live buffer, I save the show to the Playlist. But if I cancel the recording, the live buffer is not purged. Compare that to TiVo - when the live buffer is recording, if you cancel the recording, you lose the live buffer - you can't rewind again. With the DVR+, I can cancel the recording, still rewind, and even press RECORD again to recapture the buffer. This is another thing I hope we don't lose should DLB be implemented.

Ideally, DIRECTV can implement dual live buffers with independent 90 minute buffers. I would gladly sacrifice 90 minutes of storage from the area used for recording playlist programs if that is what it would take. I would love to have two rolling 90 minute buffers, on Tuner 1 and Tuner 2, with a simple way to switch between the buffers, like, I don't know, pressing the down arrow. Am I just being greedy?


----------



## braven

I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them.


----------



## stogie5150

NOT having DLB and expressing no desire to add it was THE major reason to dump D* completely. In September I reduced programming due to a funding shortage, sent back my R15 and my HR20. I am now back on my feet, so to speak, so I took another look at the HR20/21, and there is STILL no movement from D* on this. So I paid my end of contract fee Saturday, 168.00. I refuse to deal with inferior equipment. Well, inferior equipment I have to pay up front for, pay every month for, and pay if I leave early for. I'd rather do without. Which is what I am doing.


----------



## ub1934

Work around to slow if it works at all , SLB does not always hold pause point , give us back our real DLB.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jheda said:


> statistics is amazing. So far still extremely consistent with the Que poll!!! And if there are no breaches, the sampling size now appears to be large enough not to change the ultimate result.....


It's nice to know that we're consistent. Although, it's also interesting to see the spread of those who do not consider DLB a total must-have, and how they vote as well.


----------



## cdc101

Stuart Sweet said:


> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate.


Period...end of story, thank you drive-through!


----------



## vankai

If I'm interpreting the votes correctly, you could say those who voted for options 2-5 vary from "I may use it if it was there" to "Must have".

That would be 9 out of 10 votes falling into those categories.

Hypothetically, if that same 90% of folks were willing to participate in beta testing DLB, in a tactful manner, providing constructive feedback without criticizing the specs that are given to the programmers, then DirecTV could succesfully implement a feature that would satisfy a large select group of people here. That same feature could then be marketed by the select group to friends, families and peers, as well as the marketing gurus within the company to entice new subscribers along with their HD advertising.

Heck, I would even suggest to provide a date that the testing would begin via CE, as opposed to the traditional "fixes/changes" notification delivery. <nothing wrong with the traditional method, just a unique situation, IMO>. This would enable us to have a CE DLB party that would make the Friday Night CE galas pale in comparision.

This board would light up!


----------



## Doug Brott

ub1934 said:


> Work around to slow if it works at all , SLB does not always hold pause point , give us back our real DLB.


Do you have an HR21? The Single Live Buffer certainly did not work as well as expected until firmware release 0x1EA which is what the HR20s currently have.


----------



## danor

DLB's, as implemented on my 10-250 is one of the sweetest inventions since the advent of color TV.
Smile on my little friend,










.


----------



## tfederov

With as full as my DVRs are, recording something to activate the "2nd buffer" might bump something out that I haven't seen yet. I'd prefer to go the way of the HR10 with the DLB.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jheda said:


> Gotcha. And i respect your opinion. what is it that you would miss if itwere 2 buffers that went to 30? what if it went to 45 or 60? Is it just that lucky tv turn on "oops i missed this" or do you conciously use the 90 minute buffer for anything?


For me it's the lucky TV turn on, but I do use it pretty consistently.


----------



## richlife

This pretty much describes how I feel about the current "hot" picks on the HR20/21. DLB is a major feature that added tremendously to my enjoyment of "spontaneous" tv watching. Without it, I find I don't watch live tv except to have SportsCenter on while reading this forum and my email.

The "workaround" is just that -- a poor and inadequate attempt to reproduce some of what DLB offered. Too much to think about and too easy to mess up (miss on pause and you're gone). I don't really care how large the buffers are as long as they're 30 minutes or more - but I do like the 90 minute buffer when I happen to come in late to a show (assuming I'm in the right buffer, of course). With DLB, I could pretty much assure that one of the channels I most like to watch will be active in one of the buffers even if the tv had been off.



mightythor88 said:


> DLB is a must have. DoD that isnt HD is useless to me, and while I would like MRV to be implemented I can live without it.
> ...
> I watch a lot of Live TV and honestly am exceedingly frustrated by posts saying Directv doesnt think DLB is important.
> 
> If DLB isnt a patent issue and it is purely a choice by Directv not to implement it - then they are ignoring a big part of their customer base.
> 
> I use DLB daily, so to me it is the most important feature they could make happen.


----------



## richlife

Green23 said:


> I agree--- DLB is a simple concept- 2 independent tuners in the box and the ability to view either one while they are recording buffers. The *DVR+* tuners seem to be *dependent *ones, as you have to actually start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds. Many other systems allow DLB.
> 
> Let us switch between the tuners!!!


This post just threw itself off the screen at me because of the DVR+ term I put in BOLD. How can this be a DVR+ without DLB. Compared with what is available elsewhere, it's a DVR- and the lack of DLB keeps it that way.

If there is a way for DirecTV to really show appreciation for DBSTalk and the CE program, it seems to me it would be to provide a CE with DLB.


----------



## jheda

I actually thought the percentages for DLB would go down as many have acclamated to the HR2x and simply learn to utilize it. Again for the most part im fine with SLB but empathathize with those that arent as a former DLB addict myself. We can start speculating all day why the percentages are unchanged, but it is fascinating, and the only data is that one year later the demand for DLB as we sit here today is unchanged.



puffnstuff said:


> Wierd huh


----------



## Stuart Sweet

richlife said:


> This post just threw itself off the screen at me because of the DVR+ term I put in BOLD. How can this be a DVR+ without DLB. Compared with what is available elsewhere, it's a DVR- and the lack of DLB keeps it that way.
> 
> If there is a way for DirecTV to really show appreciation for DBSTalk and the CE program, it seems to me it would be to provide a CE with DLB.


I think that the term DVR+ here is used as an identifying term, as it is the proper name of the product.


----------



## Que

Like to add that for many new users, they may not know what an HR10 is. They could be coming from another DVR that has DLB. *(Change to the other tuner)*

List of some DVRs with DLB:

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

They come here to find out what they are doing wrong and *"How to change to the other tuner/buffer"* this is known as DLB. On all the DVRs above works about the same with DLB.



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


Old DLB thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

[edit] add another key-word *"switch to the other tuner"*


----------



## themorg

We would definitely use it. My wife was surprised that the "newer" models didn't have it. Actually, a bit upset! She does sometimes switch between a few shows, though she does like the 90 minute buffer.

Would be nice if we could have complete control over it as well! e.g. 1 90 minute or 2 60 minute or 2 30 minute or even 2 90 minute buffers. We would give up some recording space for 2 90 minute buffers!


----------



## Que

vankai said:


> If I'm interpreting the votes correctly, you could say those who voted for options 2-5 vary from "I may use it if it was there" to "Must have".
> 
> That would be 9 out of 10 votes falling into those categories.
> 
> Hypothetically, if that same 90% of folks were willing to participate in beta testing DLB, in a tactful manner, providing constructive feedback without criticizing the specs that are given to the programmers, then DirecTV could succesfully implement a feature that would satisfy a large select group of people here. That same feature could then be marketed by the select group to friends, families and peers, as well as the marketing gurus within the company to entice new subscribers along with their HD advertising.
> 
> Heck, I would even suggest to provide a date that the testing would begin via CE, as opposed to the traditional "fixes/changes" notification delivery. <nothing wrong with the traditional method, just a unique situation, IMO>. This would enable us to have a CE DLB party that would make the Friday Night CE galas pale in comparision.
> 
> This board would light up!


Where do we sign up?


----------



## bakers12

I realize that DirecTV offers a lot of programming for sports fans which would make DLB important to a large part of the customer base. Since I am not a sports fan, DLB has very little to offer me.


----------



## beer_geek

bakers12 said:


> I realize that DirecTV offers a lot of programming for sports fans which would make DLB important to a large part of the customer base. Since I am not a sports fan, DLB has very little to offer me.


I completely disagree that it has little to offer the non-sports fan. My wife and I constantly watch 2 programs. Since we both work, we like to spend time together instead of watching TV in different rooms. I put her show on one tuner and mine on the other. We switch back and forth and never miss a thing.


----------



## gcisko

bonscott87 said:


> If it's there I'll probably use it at times otherwise I personally don't need it. Main reason is that I don't watch much live TV and even then it's delayed to avoid commercials. Only exception is Sunday Ticket which I refuse to watch on a DVR. I want the lightning fast response and interactive experience that a non-DVR (H21) can give and I'll take that any day over DLB.
> 
> Again, just my personal opinion.


But since we are talking LIVE buffers here, everyone would use it all the time if implemented. That is what I meant by saying people would use it and not even know.

And I do appreciate the fact that the mods wanted to revisit this topic after a year or so. But as far as I can tell, it is generating the same responses. What I would like to read is something concrete from Directv. Are they working on DLB, will it be implemented? What are the hurdles (if any).


----------



## gcisko

bakers12 said:


> I realize that DirecTV offers a lot of programming for sports fans which would make DLB important to a large part of the customer base. Since I am not a sports fan, DLB has very little to offer me.


Actually if they do implement DLB, everyone would use it all the time. Each tuner would constantly be storing whatever channel it is on. No choice... This is true even when the unit is OFF (standby as it is nover actually unpowered). At least it was with my old UltimateTV. The cool things it would do, people would soon take for granted.


----------



## gcisko

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that the term DVR+ here is used as an identifying term, as it is the proper name of the product.


Of course mfr's get to name their product whatever they wish regardless of anything else. Because otherwise I think Richlife is correct


----------



## davemayo

carl6 said:


> I agree completely with this post. I do find myself regularly using the 90 minute buffer, more than I think I would use dual live buffers if they were available. As a result, I would love to see dual live 90 minute buffers, but would not want to see any shorter buffer.
> 
> Carl


+1. I've learned to live without true DLB from my Tivo days, but I've gotten attached to the 90-minute buffer.


----------



## raott

davemayo said:


> +1. I've learned to live without true DLB from my Tivo days, but I've gotten attached to the 90-minute buffer.


There is no reason that both cannot be had.


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that the term DVR+ here is used as an identifying term, as it is the proper name of the product.


In my case, I've been using DVR+ or "DVR Plus" to refer to the software umbrella for all non-TiVo models (HR21, HR20, R15, etc.) DLB would apply to all of these models, not just a specific model...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Drew you are correct, of course. However, let's concentrate on getting DLBs enabled for the DIRECTV+ HD DVR family before moving on to the DIRECTV+ DVR series, right?


----------



## jgrade

beer_geek said:


> I completely disagree that it has little to offer the non-sports fan. My wife and I constantly watch 2 programs. Since we both work, we like to spend time together instead of watching TV in different rooms. I put her show on one tuner and mine on the other. We switch back and forth and never miss a thing.


I don't understand. Are you saying that you switch back and forth between two live shows and watch the simultaneously? Doesn't that get confusing? How does that work better than recording one show and watching it after the first is over. Isn't it the same amount of time? Seriously, I am really curious.

By the way Stuart, you need to warn people when you change your avatar. As much as I enjoyed the smack down New England got, I didn't recognize your posts. You get used to seeing certain pictures to the right and yours has been missing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I lost a bet. So did Doug Brott, tfederov, AirRocker, gulfwarvet, and mhayes70. Don't worry, we'll be back to normal next week.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I lost a bet. So did Doug Brott, tfederov, AirRocker, gulfwarvet, and mhayes70. Don't worry, we'll be back to normal next week.


Absolutely .. I'm not liking this hat either :grin:


----------



## jheda

Wear it proudly my friend, wear it proudly.....



Doug Brott said:


> Absolutely .. I'm not liking this hat either :grin:


----------



## Doug Brott

gcisko said:


> ... I do appreciate the fact that the mods wanted to revisit this topic after a year or so. But as far as I can tell, it is generating the same responses. What I would like to read is something concrete from Directv. Are they working on DLB, will it be implemented? What are the hurdles (if any).





Doug Brott said:


> No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
> This comment is as official as it is going to get...
> 
> DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.​


As noted, I doubt you'll see an official announcement from DIRECTV on this matter.


----------



## jgriffin7

gcisko said:


> Actually if they do implement DLB, everyone would use it all the time. Each tuner would constantly be storing whatever channel it is on. No choice... This is true even when the unit is OFF (standby as it is nover actually unpowered). At least it was with my old UltimateTV. The cool things it would do, people would soon take for granted.


Remember, this already happens on the HR2*. Both tuners are always storing whatever channel each is on. Not being able to switch without flushing the buffer is the problem.

I think the more people realize this flaw, the greater outcry there will be for D* take the final step to full DLB functionality.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jgriffin7 said:


> Remember, this already happens on the HR2*. Both tuners are always storing whatever channel each is on. Not being able to switch without flushing the buffer is the problem.
> 
> I think the more people realize this flaw, the greater outcry there will be for D* take the final step to full DLB functionality.


That is incorrect... On the HR2*

Only the foreground tuner is actually storing the data stream..
The background tuner (The one you are not viewing), is not storing anything.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Actually I am not sure that the hard drive is actually buffering the signal from both tuners at the same time. If it were doing so, and all DIRECTV had to do was enable us to access them with a simple button push... well I don't know if that would make me very happy (cause it would be so easy) or very angry (cause they hadn't done it yet).


----------



## stepck

Just replaced old DirecTivo unit with HR21 in order to get HD service.

My wife is still upset with me because:
(1) No DLB
(2) No HD locals

At least (2) should be fixed relatively soon. I'm not hopeful about (1). The only thing keeping me alive is that I still have the HR10 in one room.


----------



## jgriffin7

Sorry, Earl. You are flat out wrong. I got the tip off a thread long ago, and have used it several times.

Do this (using whatever channel #s and times you wish.) Have your HR2* on channel 4 while it is recording a show on channel 5. This show recording on channel 5 ends at 8:00 and you see the record light turn off. Then around 8:15 you realize there's another show on channel 5 that started at 8:00, but you didn't set to record. REMEMBER, this whole time you've been on channel 4. Bring up the guide, scroll to channel 5, highlight the show that began at 8:00, and press the record button. DO NOT TUNE TO CHANNEL 5. Now, go to the List. You'll be able to watch the show on channel 5 in it's entirety, right back to 8:00.

It always buffers both tuners!!


----------



## jgriffin7

Stuart Sweet said:


> Actually I am not sure that the hard drive is actually buffering the signal from both tuners at the same time. If it were doing so, and all DIRECTV had to do was enable us to access them with a simple button push... well I don't know if that would make me very happy (cause it would be so easy) or very angry (cause they hadn't done it yet).


Stuart, you're beginning to get the picture of what I've been complaining about the whole time.


----------



## jwebb1970

Voted for option 4.

Of the few things I miss from Comcast, the DLB feature on their Moto HD DVRs tops that very short list.


----------



## jgriffin7

Here's the original thread that taught us how to get to the supposedly non-buffering 2nd tuner:
If you don't like DLB and NFL don't read


----------



## Doug Brott

jgriffin7 said:


> Sorry, Earl. You are flat out wrong. I got the tip off a thread long ago, and have used it several times.
> ...
> 
> It always buffers both tuners!!


Interesting .. This is something that I had not seen before ..


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jgriffin7 said:


> Sorry, Earl. You are flat out wrong. I got the tip off a thread long ago, and have used it several times.
> 
> Do this (using whatever channel #s and times you wish.) Have your HR2* on channel 4 while it is recording a show on channel 5. This show recording on channel 5 ends at 8:00 and you see the record light turn off. Then around 8:15 you realize there's another show on channel 5 that started at 8:00, but you didn't set to record. REMEMBER, this whole time you've been on channel 4. Bring up the guide, scroll to channel 5, highlight the show that began at 8:00, and press the record button. DO NOT TUNE TO CHANNEL 5. Now, go to the List. You'll be able to watch the show on channel 5 in it's entirety, right back to 8:00.
> 
> It always buffers both tuners!!


So in this case... you already initiated a record function.... that record function completes while you are in the background.... The tuner just continues to feed the data stream to a file structure somewhere.

What happens if you set your system to channel 5. (but not actively recording)
Change to another channel (so it is in the foreground)... wait 5 Minutes.

Go to the guide, hit record on that channel 5 program...
Where does it start the recording? 5 minutes ago, once you first set the channel to it.... or when you hit record.

Let me know...
If it does in fact record back to when you first tuned to the channel...
I will agree that I am "flat out wrong".

If not, then you have a specific combination of events that could in fact be a bug in the system (a background recording, continues to stream data to the hard drive, instead of ending the stream at the end of the broadcast)...

It is also possible, that is a correct mechanism of the system, to be able to do the overlap recording (back to back programs).


----------



## cartrivision

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think there are people who are indifferent to it and would rather see the programming resources spent doing something else.


But programming resources don't seem to be allocated based on demand. If you want to see a massive showing of indifference, ask a diverse sampling of HR20/21 owners if they care about or will ever use media sharing. I shudder to think of the resources that were devoted to adding that feature at the expense of features like DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and at the expense of more aggressively addressing the list of persistent bugs that seems to be added to a lot more than it's subtracted from.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> But programming resources don't seem to be allocated based on demand. If you want to see a massive showing of indifference, ask a diverse sampling of HR20/21 owners if they care about or will ever use media sharing. I shudder to think of the resources that were devoted to adding that feature at the expense of features like DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and at the expense of more aggressively addressing the list of persistent bugs that seems to be added to a lot more than it's subtracted from.


You are making assumptions based on only having a very tiny segment of the facts (what is visible to use as an end user), on how and what is being done in an enviornment that you have next to no information about.


----------



## mightythor88

this makes sense now, I changed my programming on Friday night around 10pm from one of the defunct base packages to the HD DVR base package, but then i had to call back since it said my dvr was not authorized around 10:15pm. I was on a different channel with my hr20-700 but had just recorded Friday Night lights so when they reactivated my dvr access I hit record on Las Vegas thinking bummer I missed the 1st 15 minutes, when I went to play it - it began from the beginning. I was stoked needless to say!



Earl Bonovich said:


> So in this case... you already initiated a record function.... that record function completes while you are in the background.... The tuner just continues to feed the data stream to a file structure somewhere.
> 
> What happens if you set your system to channel 5. (but not actively recording)
> Change to another channel (so it is in the foreground)... wait 5 Minutes.
> 
> Go to the guide, hit record on that channel 5 program...
> Where does it start the recording? 5 minutes ago, once you first set the channel to it.... or when you hit record.
> 
> Let me know...
> If it does in fact record back to when you first tuned to the channel...
> I will agree that I am "flat out wrong".
> 
> If not, then you have a specific combination of events that could in fact be a bug in the system (a background recording, continues to stream data to the hard drive, instead of ending the stream at the end of the broadcast)...
> 
> It is also possible, that is a correct mechanism of the system, to be able to do the overlap recording (back to back programs).


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are making assumptions based on only having a very tiny segment of the facts (what is visible to use as an end user), on how and what is being done in an enviornment that you have next to no information about.


No, I made a statement based on the fact that Media Sharing was inexplicably delivered before DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and the addressing of a long list of bugs, all of which should be a higher priority than implementing low demand features like media sharing.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> No, I made a statement based on the fact that Media Sharing was inexplicably delivered before DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and the addressing of a long list of bugs, all of which should be a higher priority than implementing low demand features like media sharing.


No... you are making an assumption on the level of work it takes to complete those tasks.

The fact is... that Media Share was released before any of those things.

But you are still making an assumption that the others would have been released first, if they had more resources assigned to them.

You are also making an assumption of the "demand" level for the Media Share feature...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

cartrivision said:


> No, I made a statement based on the fact that Media Sharing was inexplicably delivered before DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and the addressing of a long list of bugs, all of which should be a higher priority than implementing low demand features like media sharing.


Regardless.

I see your points, I really do. And I understand where you are coming from. But honestly, it's yesterday's news. My point here, in rebooting this thread, was to talk about DLB in the perspective of 2008. It's very easy to sit back and say they coulda shoulda woulda no matter whether you're talking about software or football.

I respectfully ask that we discuss the matter here in 2008 and not as if it were 2006.

What 62% of you are saying is, this is a very important feature to you. It makes your DVR experience considerably better, other competing products have the feature, and it would improve your future satisfaction to have it. Am I right?


----------



## mightythor88

Stuart Sweet said:


> Regardless.
> 
> What 62% of you are saying is, this is a very important feature to you. It makes your DVR experience considerably better, other competing products have the feature, and it would improve your future satisfaction to have it. Am I right?


+1


----------



## jgriffin7

Earl Bonovich said:


> So in this case... you already initiated a record function.... that record function completes while you are in the background.... The tuner just continues to feed the data stream to a file structure somewhere.
> 
> What happens if you set your system to channel 5. (but not actively recording)
> Change to another channel (so it is in the foreground)... wait 5 Minutes.
> 
> Go to the guide, hit record on that channel 5 program...
> Where does it start the recording? 5 minutes ago, once you first set the channel to it.... or when you hit record.
> 
> Let me know...
> If it does in fact record back to when you first tuned to the channel...
> I will agree that I am "flat out wrong".
> 
> If not, then you have a specific combination of events that could in fact be a bug in the system (a background recording, continues to stream data to the hard drive, instead of ending the stream at the end of the broadcast)...
> 
> It is also possible, that is a correct mechanism of the system, to be able to do the overlap recording (back to back programs).


Agreed that it could be a bug. But that fact that it continues to stream to the hard drive is an example of two tuners being 'buffered'.

In your example of changing channels, waiting 5 minutes, then recording on the previous channel; no, that won't work, because you changed the channel on the active tuner. The key is knowing what channel the other tuner is on. And the sure fire way to know that, is to know the last channel that was recorded.


----------



## danor

Stuart Sweet said:


> Regardless.
> 
> I see your points, I really do. And I understand where you are coming from. But honestly, it's yesterday's news. My point here, in rebooting this thread, was to talk about DLB in the perspective of 2008. It's very easy to sit back and say they coulda shoulda woulda no matter whether you're talking about software or football.
> 
> I respectfully ask that we discuss the matter here in 2008 and not as if it were 2006.
> 
> What 62% of you are saying is, this is a very important feature to you. It makes your DVR experience considerably better, other competing products have the feature, and it would improve your future satisfaction to have it. Am I right?


+10


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ya know, features come in the time that resources permit, desire allocates resources, in order of pre-requisites, team availability, the design is complete and approved, UI is approved, etc. Some things easily fit into the architecture, some take more effort. Even some features that have been planned since day one take time; the foundation must ready to support new things.

DLB is technically feasible. The team is very capable of getting it done. The trade-offs can be worked out at some point. The thing is, today is not the day. (Breaks my heart to say that.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Actually... the way the system works....
It toggles between the two tuners when you change channels (and there is no recording in the background).

You can see that if you set a channel... pull the SAT signal.
Change the channel.... you will get a picture.
Go back... and the picture will still be out.


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> Drew you are correct, of course. However, let's concentrate on getting DLBs enabled for the DIRECTV+ HD DVR family before moving on to the DIRECTV+ DVR series, right?


Stuart, I absolutely agree with that sentiment, especially as I don't own any SD DVR+ receivers! 

My thinking has been that DIRECTV is striving for consistency across all platforms, from the GUI to functionality, except where limited by the hardware (ex: no recorder on the D12 series, no HD on the R series, no OTA on the HR21 series, etc.). With that in mind, wouldn't discussion of DLB have to also consider how DLB could work on the R15?


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> No... you are making an assumption on the level of work it takes to complete those tasks.
> 
> The fact is... that Media Share was released before any of those things.
> 
> But you are still making an assumption that the others would have been released first, if they had more resources assigned to them.


There is no assumption involved. If no resources would have been devoted to a feature with as little demand as media sharing until (what should be) higher priority features and bugs were addressed (i.e. if they had their priorities right), media sharing would still be on a wish list of possible new features because it properly wouldn't have gotten a single bit of the development budget in light of the long list of higher value items that should have been addressed and delivered before any development resources were dedicated to media sharing.

Of course I'll retract that if someone can convince me that the development team doesn't have a problem with limited resources and is working just as aggressively at providing DLB, MRV, better eSATA support, and working off the list of persistent bugs, as they worked toward delivering media sharing. Are all those other issues getting the same attention and needed resources as media sharing, but media sharing was just so much simpler to implement that it arrived first, while the other issues continue to be worked equally as hard?

It all boils down to setting sensible priorities, which clearly isn't happening in some cases.


----------



## boltjames

jgriffin7 said:


> Sorry, Earl. You are flat out wrong. I got the tip off a thread long ago, and have used it several times.
> 
> Do this (using whatever channel #s and times you wish.) Have your HR2* on channel 4 while it is recording a show on channel 5. This show recording on channel 5 ends at 8:00 and you see the record light turn off. Then around 8:15 you realize there's another show on channel 5 that started at 8:00, but you didn't set to record. REMEMBER, this whole time you've been on channel 4. Bring up the guide, scroll to channel 5, highlight the show that began at 8:00, and press the record button. DO NOT TUNE TO CHANNEL 5. Now, go to the List. You'll be able to watch the show on channel 5 in it's entirety, right back to 8:00.
> 
> It always buffers both tuners!!


So DLB exists! It's been there all along. Is it time for the party now?

BJ


----------



## cartrivision

jgriffin7 said:


> Agreed that it could be a bug. But that fact that it continues to stream to the hard drive is an example of two tuners being 'buffered'.
> 
> In your example of changing channels, waiting 5 minutes, then recording on the previous channel; no, that won't work, because you changed the channel on the active tuner. The key is knowing what channel the other tuner is on. And the sure fire way to know that, is to know the last channel that was recorded.


Clearly this special case shows that there are *at lease some times* when the HR20 is buffering both tuners, despite the fact that there is no mechanism provided to switch between the two different live buffers (the existing DLBs :biggthump :biggthump ) that are being maintained at the time.


----------



## henryld

Stuart Sweet said:


> Regardless.
> 
> I see your points, I really do. And I understand where you are coming from. But honestly, it's yesterday's news. My point here, in rebooting this thread, was to talk about DLB in the perspective of 2008. It's very easy to sit back and say they coulda shoulda woulda no matter whether you're talking about software or football.
> 
> I respectfully ask that we discuss the matter here in 2008 and not as if it were 2006.
> 
> What 62% of you are saying is, this is a very important feature to you. It makes your DVR experience considerably better, other competing products have the feature, and it would improve your future satisfaction to have it. Am I right?


Right you are.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jgriffin7 said:


> Sorry, Earl. You are flat out wrong. I got the tip off a thread long ago, and have used it several times.
> 
> Do this (using whatever channel #s and times you wish.) Have your HR2* on channel 4 while it is recording a show on channel 5. This show recording on channel 5 ends at 8:00 and you see the record light turn off. Then around 8:15 you realize there's another show on channel 5 that started at 8:00, but you didn't set to record. REMEMBER, this whole time you've been on channel 4. Bring up the guide, scroll to channel 5, highlight the show that began at 8:00, and press the record button. DO NOT TUNE TO CHANNEL 5. Now, go to the List. You'll be able to watch the show on channel 5 in it's entirety, right back to 8:00.
> 
> It always buffers both tuners!!


This is nothing new.

All it means is that the receiver is able to record two show at once. It also demonstrate that *DLB* is technically possible. This is also nothing new.

You just don't acess to both tuners.

Mike


----------



## jgriffin7

cartrivision said:


> Clearly this special case shows that there are *at lease some times* when the HR20 is buffering both tuners, despite the fact that there is no mechanism provided to switch between the two different live buffers (the existing DLBs :biggthump :biggthump ) that are being maintained at the time.


Well, I would go so far as to state it is always buffering both tuners. I just got home, and my HR20 was tuned to NBC. I know that earlier today (at 2:00 p.m. CST), it recorded a show on ABC. So I just pulled up the guide at 5:58 local time, highlighted ABC world news tonight, which began at 5:30, and pressed record. Keep in mind, this whole time, NBC was playing in the PIG. I then went to list, and began watching ABC world news from the beginning, at 5:30.

It was buffering both tuners. I just had no way to switch to the other without recording it. Any statements that it only writes one live stream to the drive are wrong. It is always writing both tuners to the drive, and we have no way to easily switch (like the down arrow).


----------



## Doug Brott

jgriffin7 said:


> Well, I would go so far as to state it is always buffering both tuners. I just got home, and my HR20 was tuned to NBC. I know that earlier today (at 2:00 p.m. CST), it recorded a show on ABC. So I just pulled up the guide at 5:58 local time, highlighted ABC world news tonight, which began at 5:30, and pressed record. Keep in mind, this whole time, NBC was playing in the PIG. I then went to list, and began watching ABC world news from the beginning, at 5:30.


So to be clear, you only got ABC WNT, correct? You did not get anything earlier? I'm wondering if it recorded a full 90 minutes (or more) vs. just the current program.

I'll grant that what you are describing is unexpected behavior, though. I'm curious as to the exact behavior.


----------



## dennisj00

The experiment didn't work for me. I had recorded programs on Ch. 55 at 4 and 4:30 and had the live tuner on Ch. 3 -- didn't change either channel.

At 7:08 I started recording the Ch. 55 program -- when I started playing it 20 minutes later, the time bar was 53 minutes and it was 7 or 8 minutes into the program -- the first 7 or 8 minutes were gone.

HR-20 with 1F8 load.


----------



## jgriffin7

Doug Brott said:


> So to be clear, you only got ABC WNT, correct? You did not get anything earlier? I'm wondering if it recorded a full 90 minutes (or more) vs. just the current program.
> 
> I'll grant that what you are describing is unexpected behavior, though. I'm curious as to the exact behavior.


That is correct. I'm not sure how far it will go, but I started recording an hour show about 40 minutes into it one time, and all was there. So I'm confident it does at least 40 minutes. Next time I get a chance, I'll try it on a movie channel and start recording some time greater than 90 minutes into it.


----------



## poppo

My vote has not changed. I don't use or need it. 

I'm surprised at the number of people saying the current implementation is still inadequate. Seems more like sour grapes than anything. Even the previous work around of just recording the shows was doable.


----------



## jheda

Actually Stu, 65% want DLB without reservation, 76% want DLB but some can work with the slb.
fair?



Stuart Sweet said:


> Regardless.
> 
> What 62% of you are saying is, this is a very important feature to you. It makes your DVR experience considerably better, other competing products have the feature, and it would improve your future satisfaction to have it. Am I right?


----------



## raott

poppo said:


> My vote has not changed. I don't use or need it.
> 
> I'm surprised at the number of people saying the current implementation is still inadequate. Seems more like sour grapes than anything. Even the previous work around of just recording the shows was doable.


Why is it sour grapes? The shortcomings and inconveniences of the workarounds have been discussed at length.


----------



## PapaL

Instead of MTV, I want my DLB.


----------



## ToddinVA

raott said:


> Why is it sour grapes? The shortcomings and inconveniences of the workarounds have been discussed at length.


+1


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> As for me, I'm currently in the "might use, but can live without" camp. I don't watch live TV much. I think the greatest thing about our user community is that different people use the equipment different ways, so I firmly support your right to ask for a feature you want!


Same here. Except for the occasional times I might want to monitor two ball games, I don't watch LIVE TV at all. So lack of DLB's is not a dealbreaker for me, but I can understand how hard-core ST viewers, e.g., would want it implemented as well as it was on the DirecTiVo's. /steve


----------



## Tom Robertson

poppo said:


> My vote has not changed. I don't use or need it.
> 
> I'm surprised at the number of people saying the current implementation is still inadequate. Seems more like sour grapes than anything. Even the previous work around of just recording the shows was doable.


While you are welcome to your opinion, expressing them in this manner is generally considered bad form.

I know how I like to use DLB during football season; I've tried the workarounds and they don't work for my live viewing experience. I'm not bitter, angry, nor unwilling to test various schemes. So I really don't think I'm suffering from "sour grapes" at all.

Regards,
Tom


----------



## armophob

PapaL said:


> Instead of MTV, I want my DLB.


I can dump MTV and get DLB with one stroke?!? Sign me up!!


----------



## Sixto

There are actually multiple scenarios where DLB is helpful ...

Watching both Leno and Letterman ... watching one, flip to the other tuner, see something interesting, rewind, watch ... flip back to the other ... watching both buffers fine.

Some breaking news ... CNN on one tuner, FNC on the other ... flip back and forth ... rewind to the good stuff.

Two games (already mentioned).

Watching the news, waiting for some story or the weather ... flip to tuner with Seinfeld, watch for a while ... at a commercial, flip back to the news, rewind to the point desired ... then back to Seinfeld.

Many scenarios ... just becomes a habit and makes watching "live" TV so easy.

Now, at other times, I may go days without watching "live" TV and just record everything.

And, yep, the work around may work but takes too much thought after a long day ... rather just hit the down arrow and swap tuners.

Not complaining here ... it just will be nice if we someday get DLB.


----------



## MikeR7

Sixto said:


> Not complaining here ... it just will be nice if we someday get DLB.


Someday......over the rainbow...... aw shucks. :lol:


----------



## or270

I miss this after upgrading to HD DVR's but I usually record and watch stuff later anyway.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tonight's political races--come on, this presidential campaign is fun!--are one example of how DLB would have been great. I'm using my HR10-250 to flip between ABC News and FOX News.


----------



## armophob

Lord Vader said:


> I'm using my HR10-250 to flip between ABC News and FOX News.


I'm with ya, in the same way I am missing flipping between QVC and HSN. Which junk should I buy?

But I digress, best not take this road or the whole thread will get closed for obvious disagreements.


----------



## spartanstew

I know it's a rarity, but I voted with the majority.

Their have been great strides lately to make these machines more "intuitive" (don't have to think when using it). 

The workaround is not "intuitive".


----------



## DaNiBuZ

Long time DTV customer and unfortunately did not do my research before upgrading to the HR-20. I previously had the R10 receiver which supported TIVO and loved it.
If I did not closely follow a non local NFL team and had no need for ST, I would definitely terminate my 2 year agreement because I feel I was slighted. DTV comes across rather arrogant in their stance on this whole matter. There obviously is great interest in this capability and all we are told is that "they just chose not to include it".
As I stated earlier if it were not for Sunday Ticket I'd end my agreement and move on to a service that had DLB capable receiver.

Just my .02


----------



## boltjames

One of the reasons that I am glad DLB is gone will likely be misunderstood, but here goes:

I like the fact that it's one less thing to worry about.

Before I discovered DLB on my T-60's, I'd pick one program to watch, settle in, focus, and enjoy. But once you discover DLB, it quickly becomes addicting and then a way of life when watching TV and, to me, that's a bad thing. Today's multi-tasking world is busy enough, and a good HD program is relaxing and a good way to slow down and unwind. With DLB there's always the stress of knowing that you _could _be watching two shows at once. That you need to be cognizent of the other tuner. That you need to pick two shows at once, not just the one you really want to see.

Yes, there are situations where you really have a need during the football season to jump and pause and jump back again, but on the whole DLB is just additional decisions, additional distraction, and additional stress.

Sometimes, making things simple really is best.

BJ


----------



## armophob

boltjames said:


> One of the reasons that I am glad DLB is gone will likely be misunderstood, but here goes:
> 
> I like the fact that it's one less thing to worry about.
> 
> Sometimes, making things simple really is best.
> 
> BJ


SO, we have all been in a great big intervention for our tv addictions?:lol: Nice touch. Thanks D*!


----------



## mickaloha

Earl Bonovich said:


> So in this case... you already initiated a record function.... that record function completes while you are in the background.... The tuner just continues to feed the data stream to a file structure somewhere.
> 
> What happens if you set your system to channel 5. (but not actively recording)
> Change to another channel (so it is in the foreground)... wait 5 Minutes.
> 
> Go to the guide, hit record on that channel 5 program...
> Where does it start the recording? 5 minutes ago, once you first set the channel to it.... or when you hit record.
> 
> Let me know...
> If it does in fact record back to when you first tuned to the channel...
> I will agree that I am "flat out wrong".
> 
> If not, then you have a specific combination of events that could in fact be a bug in the system (a background recording, continues to stream data to the hard drive, instead of ending the stream at the end of the broadcast)...
> 
> It is also possible, that is a correct mechanism of the system, to be able to do the overlap recording (back to back programs).


I tested this on my hr-20 and it starts recording when you hit record. It doesn't when you switched the channel.

To add more to the issue, if you are recording something and switch over to the recording to watch in real-time, you can then go to the guide and record what was the non-recorded channel up to the full buffer. But if you switch back to the non-recorded channel from the real-time recorded channel, you do lose the buffer.

It also works if you are on the real-time recorded channel and decide to stop and delete the recording, you can still go to the guide and record the non-recorded channel. Also after deleting the recording on the real-time recorded channel, it shows the buffer to the start of the program. I have not tried this with a program over 90 minutes so I am not sure if you were to delete a 2 hour program if the buffer would show more than 90 minutes.

Hopefully this information is helpful.


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> One of the reasons that I am glad DLB is gone will likely be misunderstood, but here goes:
> 
> I like the fact that it's one less thing to worry about.
> 
> Yes, there are situations where you really have a need during the football season to jump and pause and jump back again, but on the whole DLB is just additional decisions, additional distraction, and additional stress.
> 
> Sometimes, making things simple really is best.
> 
> BJ


No offense, but I don't understand your argument. I don't find the choice of jumping back and forth between two live broadcasts as stressful; rather it is satisfying my capability to absorb content. It is a great way to decompress after a stressful day of work; surfing the available programming content for new interests.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> The experiment didn't work for me. I had recorded programs on Ch. 55 at 4 and 4:30 and had the live tuner on Ch. 3 -- didn't change either channel.
> 
> At 7:08 I started recording the Ch. 55 program -- when I started playing it 20 minutes later, the time bar was 53 minutes and it was 7 or 8 minutes into the program -- the first 7 or 8 minutes were gone.
> 
> HR-20 with 1F8 load.


I've never tried it that long after the background had stopped recording.

Try it closer to when it stopped and see what happens.

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> One of the reasons that I am glad DLB is gone will likely be misunderstood, but here goes:
> 
> I like the fact that it's one less thing to worry about.


At the moment DLB may be "gone", but what is certainly NOT gone is the desire of many in the DBSTalk user population to have DLB. 

Since everyone does use their DVR differently, the great news for people who don't like DLB is that if DIRECTV ever enables it, no one would force the user to use it ... It's really that simple. No additional distractions, no additional stress. No nothing ... Don't like DLB? Just ... don't .... use .... it.


----------



## beer_geek

jgrade said:


> I don't understand. Are you saying that you switch back and forth between two live shows and watch the simultaneously? Doesn't that get confusing? How does that work better than recording one show and watching it after the first is over. Isn't it the same amount of time? Seriously, I am really curious.
> 
> By the way Stuart, you need to warn people when you change your avatar. As much as I enjoyed the smack down New England got, I didn't recognize your posts. You get used to seeing certain pictures to the right and yours has been missing.


That's exactly what I'm saying. For me, it's better because watching 2 shows at once takes less time than watching one live followed by one that's been recorded. I get to sleep at a reasonable hour instead of staying up watching recorded TV.

Lastly, I think everyone should use those most excellent avatars.


----------



## bhelton71

I have had to re-teach myself and my family how to watch tv. With HR10 we could pause 2 shows - let enough buffer build up while finishing chores,etc. After 15-20 minutes we could sit down and start watching the first - ffwd'ing thru commercials or boring stuff. When that buffer was used up - two keypresses (Pause, Down) would get you to the other show.

Now we feel restricted in some ways - its true we got 1 giant buffer that is bigger than both HR10 buffers combined - but I can't think of a single situation where I would be 90 minutes behind on any channel - we only use 15-20 minutes of delay typically even on the HR20. And changing between 2 concurrent shows is needlessly convoluted. Its something you have to think about - silly when you consider tv is supposed to be mindless entertainment.

A lot of this debate is probably differences in usage. The HR20 seems to have the philosophy that you want to time shift programming > 1hr. The HR10 was closer to my particular usage - time shifting about 15 minutes (of which 6-8 minutes will be commercials) - and a 'backup' show when you use up your buffer.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> At the moment DLB may be "gone", but what is certainly NOT gone is the desire of many in the DBSTalk user population to have DLB.
> 
> Since everyone does use their DVR differently, the great news for people who don't like DLB is that if DIRECTV ever enables it, no one would force the user to use it ... It's really that simple. No additional distractions, no additional stress. No nothing ... Don't like DLB? Just ... don't .... use .... it.


Easy to say, but it's like being on a diet with a half-gallon of Edy's Fudge Tracks in the freezer. So long as it's in the house, it's a temptation. And an evil temptation, at that.

DLB is the devil.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> No offense, but I don't understand your argument. I don't find the choice of jumping back and forth between two live broadcasts as stressful; rather it is satisfying my capability to absorb content. It is a great way to decompress after a stressful day of work; surfing the available programming content for new interests.


No offense taken. For me, absorbing content that I really care about seeing means that I record the second program for later viewing as I watch the first live. If I'm not recording the second program, I really didn't care that much for it to begin with.

Without DLB, I'm not tempted to play the flip game. With DLB, I'm tempted to flip all the time just to see what's hiding in the buffer and/or am deliberately tuning into two shows at once just to keep my second buffer as a safety net.

BJ


----------



## richlife

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think that the term DVR+ here is used as an identifying term, as it is the proper name of the product.


I'm well aware. My point is that without DLB it doesn't deserve the special "+".


----------



## richlife

Dr. Booda said:


> No offense, but I don't understand your argument. I don't find the choice of jumping back and forth between two live broadcasts as stressful; rather it is satisfying my capability to absorb content. It is a great way to decompress after a stressful day of work; surfing the available programming content for new interests.


I agree. In fact, not having DLB is what's stressful! As for the workaround...! as has be stated, that's had more than enough trashing, but it's definitely stressful.

Give us DLB -- let end this debate. You don't want it don't use it. After almost 2 years, the lack of DLB is still a hot button. You would think DirecTV would get the idea by now.


----------



## jheda

["QUOTE=boltjames;1437373]_Easy to say, but it's like being on a diet with a half-gallon of Edy's Fudge Tracks in the freezer. So long as it's in the house, it's a temptation. And an evil temptation, at that.

DLB is the devil._
BJ[/QUOTE]

Some might feel the same about VOD; they dont want to get addicted to the use of it and if it becomes a charge to use it will force them into bankrupcy and then perhaps suicide.

Come on BJ i know you are dissapointed because your predicitions of the poll numbers changing if this site was reset proved to be baseless as the numbers are EXACTLY the same; so i guess you are down to" DLB is evil?"


----------



## Green23

richlife said:


> I'm well aware. My point is that without DLB it doesn't deserve the special "+".


Exactly- without DLB it should be called "DVR-"


----------



## cartrivision

Green23 said:


> Exactly- without DLB it should be called "DVR-"


Maybe the "+" stands for features that most people don't care about and will never use, like media sharing.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> Maybe the "+" stands for features that most people don't care about and will never use, like media sharing.


Just because YOU don't use it... don't make assumptions that "most people" don't care about or will never use...

That is just as wrong as the assumption that "most people" wont' use DLB...


----------



## jheda

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because YOU don't use it... don't make assumptions that "most people" don't care about or will never use...
> 
> That is just as wrong as the assumption that "most people" wont' use DLB...


Agreed. Bashing the features the hr2x does enjoy does nothing to support the DLB argument.

If and only if we are informed that a feature would be lost in favor of DLB would it be appropriate to argue the comparitive merits, IMHO.


----------



## sanborn13

Even after 17 months on an HR-20 I still miss the DLB of my HR-10.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

cartrivision said:


> Maybe the "+" stands for features that most people don't care about and will never use, like media sharing.


I will admit, as I have before, that I rarely use Media Sharing and am not a terribly big fan of it. But other people seem to get a lot out of it. Let's keep the discussion confined to Dual Live Buffers.


----------



## ccr1958

i would use it on occasion if implemented but am doing
fine without it


----------



## Indiana627

Should a poll be setup to see how users would like to see DLB implemented: 

two 90 minute buffers
two 45 minute buffers
two 30 minute buffers

I've seen a lot of responses of how people would want this to work if D* implemented. Maybe this poll would help D* to determine how to proceed? (And I hope they do proceed.)


----------



## mikewolf13

Indiana627 said:


> Should a poll be setup to see how users would like to see DLB implemented:
> 
> two 90 minute buffers
> two 45 minute buffers
> two 30 minute buffers
> 
> I've seen a lot of responses of how people would want this to work if D* implemented. Maybe this poll would help D* to determine how to proceed? (And I hope they do proceed.)


Why would anyone choose 30 minute buffers over 90 minute buffers?

Assuming it is not at a cost of other features...


----------



## Indiana627

Maybe 30 minute buffers is the most they could do.

At the cost of other features - good point. Maybe they should be part of the choices:

two 30 minute buffers if it means not sacrificing other features
two 45/90 minute buffers even if it means sacrificing other features


----------



## carl6

Indiana627 said:


> Maybe 30 minute buffers is the most they could do.
> 
> At the cost of other features - good point. Maybe they should be part of the choices:
> 
> two 30 minute buffers if it means not sacrificing other features
> two 45/90 minute buffers even if it means sacrificing other features


I would expect the only other feature that would be impacted by the buffer sizes would be the total recording capacity. If they were to change from one 90 minute buffer to two 90 minute buffers, you are going to lose 90 minutes of recording capacity someplace.

My preference would be to retain the 90 minute buffer as the higher priority. Two 90 minute buffers would be perfectly okay with me (at the cost of 90 minutes of other recording space), or possibly one 90 minute and one 30 minute buffer (as long as you were able to tell which was which).

Carl


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

Indiana627 said:


> Should a poll be setup to see how users would like to see DLB implemented:
> 
> two 90 minute buffers
> two 45 minute buffers
> two 30 minute buffers
> 
> I've seen a lot of responses of how people would want this to work if D* implemented. Maybe this poll would help D* to determine how to proceed? (And I hope they do proceed.)


2 90 min buffers I will take it right away no questions asked. 2 45 min buffers I would
have to think about it but I would probably take it. I would miss the 90 min SLB. I would say no to 2 30 min buffers I rather keep it how it is


----------



## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because YOU don't use it... don't make assumptions that "most people" don't care about or will never use...
> 
> That is just as wrong as the assumption that "most people" wont' use DLB...


With all respect, I am not sure I agree but I could be confused by your post. I think the orginal poster was saying most people would use DLB and most wouldn't use the other + features. DLB was a core feature I used every day and miss not having every time I use the hr20. Many of the + features in HR2X are amateur hour at best. For example:

Interactive feature: it is just annoying, the weather data is light weight, i get better info faster by just tuning to one of my off the air sub channels that have the local weather on it , and horoscopes ... really? come on. I wish I could turn it off in the setup because I hate it when I fat finger the remote in the dark and loose the one buffer I have of what I am watching.

Game Room - Wow this is so 15+ years ago. from the little time I looked at is, it looked like the games that were on yahoo games. I guess if I was just dieing for something to do, and I mean dieing, like there was nothing on that I would want to watch and nothing recorded, No DVDs of interest, my computer was down, I already read the paper, and I didn't' have a single book that I wanted to read the second time, nothing needed to be done around the house and all the bills were paid, and I didn't want to take the dogs for a walk, the game room might have some interest, but I guess I would play with my PS3 first. IMO the Game Room today couldn't even compete with games offered on game consoles 20 years ago.

DoD - sigh, it is cute, but slow lacking content, it can't filter out content you are not authorized to watch so you don't waste time downloading it and is likely limited to the small percentages of people who would actually lay a network drop to their TV. Also it is a DVR much of this content is a repeat of something that has played, so at least for me unless it has richer content, and they can up the performance to be some how more responsive the is lacking, it almost looks like a half assed attempt to have a feature check mark to say they have an answer to what cable and Fios have with their on demand content because of the limitations of DBS satellite technology.

and lastly Media Share - again a cute idea that has potential but buggy and lightweight and I wonder if the HR2X boxes have the right codecs and frameworks to be a real player here. For right now, there are lots of better choices to support this kind of capability if this feature is real important to ya. Ok it plays music fine, and you can look at pictures and watch some videos, but it is not a hard core media player. I have had problems with trick plays not working. It appears that it can not handle DTS encoded materials so if you have a library of archived DVDs I get no audio, maybe I could make it work if I archived them with the ac3 streams but I haven't the time or desire to work it out, and I have not played with it much more that tinkering primarily because my PS3 does such a better job, I assume the same would be true for an xbox or any of the dedicated network media players. Maybe If they had some visualizations and smoothed out the UI I might use it to play my archived CD collection, thanks to TVersity I can play my lossless wma files on both the HR20 and PS3. I would think that this feature is beyond the mass market that DLB would appeal to, you do need to be some what sophisticated in your understanding of PC's, networking, directv, and media servers to get working.

So when I look at all the energy that must of been expended on creating the above light weight amateur hour features, unless there is just something crazy about the hardware of the funky software architecture that the HR2X is structured around IMO if they would of spent a fraction of that budget into keeping the same core user experience features like keeping DLBs in the product (and invested a hell of a lot more into testing before releasing broken code) it would have been a better experience.


----------



## cartrivision

Indiana627 said:


> Maybe 30 minute buffers is the most they could do.
> 
> At the cost of other features - good point. Maybe they should be part of the choices:
> 
> two 30 minute buffers if it means not sacrificing other features
> two 45/90 minute buffers even if it means sacrificing other features


I fail to see why there would ever have to be a tradeoff between buffer length and other features. Buffer length is simply a matter of how much space on the disk you are willing to dedicate to the buffer(s).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

btmoore said:


> With all respect, I am not sure I agree but I could be confused by your post. I think the orginal poster was saying most people would use DLB and most wouldn't use the other + features. DLB was a core feature I used every day and miss not having every time I use the hr20. Many of the + features in HR2X are amateur hour at best. For example:
> (...)


btmoore, I hear what you're saying and believe it or not, I agree, a lot of that stuff is unappealing to me. But I think it's wrong to say that it's unappealing to the millions of other subscribers out there who (for some reason I cannot fathom) do not read this site.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

btmoore said:


> With all respect, I am not sure I agree but I could be confused by your post. I think the orginal poster was saying most people would use DLB and most wouldn't use the other + features.


That is exactly right... the op was making an assumption, that those others features are not being used by enough people to warrant the time being used on them... but DLB... should trump all of them... by using the same bad assumption.



btmoore said:


> Interactive feature


The interactive featuers are not specific to the HR2* platform.
The same interactive featuers go to all the other boxes that are compatible with interactive.... So it's resources, are not necessarily taken from HR2* development.



btmoore said:


> Game Room


Similar to interactive features... they are not specific to the RH2* platform, and are available to all the other interactive enabled boxes (most of them).

IIRC... Game Room is actually from another company, that DirecTV has licensed it from... so not many of it's resources are from DirecTV... if any.



btmoore said:


> DoD - sigh, it is cute, but slow lacking content


So it is not appealing to you, but since I can't quote numbers... it is appealing to a LOT of people out there.... As this is a very big strategic need for DirecTV for future growth and content and to compete with the other carriers out there, that have already been pushing this feature for a long time.

And as for your listed faults with DoD... guess then need to take the resources that may be working on something else, and re-assign them back to DoD to tweek those things.



btmoore said:


> and lastly Media Share


While yes, there are several different devices out there that one could get to do these things... There is an advantage to not having another device.

Codec and Frameworks, are dependent on the host Media Server... The HR2* is just the playback device from the data stream from those Media Servers.



btmoore said:


> So when I look at all the energy that must of been expended on creating the above light weight amateur hour features, unless there is just something crazy about the hardware of the funky software architecture that the HR2X is structured around IMO if they would of spent a fraction of that budget into keeping the same core user experience features like keeping DLBs in the product (and invested a hell of a lot more into testing before releasing broken code) it would have been a better experience.


What about the bigger picture....

Do you really think all the work that goes into make DoD possible... is only going to be used for Dod? Or all the pieces involved with MediaShare, are not going to be used for anything else?

Again... there are a lot of assumption being made of what you see from the user level interface to the unit.... to what is being done underneath to provide that functionality.


----------



## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> btmoore, I hear what you're saying and believe it or not, I agree, a lot of that stuff is unappealing to me. But I think it's wrong to say that it's unappealing to the millions of other subscribers out there who (for some reason I cannot fathom) do not read this site.


I hear ya, no way to know for sure with out hireing a market research orginization to do the research, but that being said based on what I know and seen from friends, co-workers, etc. I have a hard time seeing a mass appeal in the annemic "+" features as implemented by D* where the ability to swap live buffered tuners just makes good business logic as it was part of the user experience for years.


----------



## AZ_Engineer

Quick data point. I was at CES in January, and when I stopped at the Dish booth and asked the guy manning a demo why I should switch from DirectTV to them, his first statement was "We have dual live buffers" !! I kid you not. Maybe that's the only advantage they have, but that was his first statement...joe


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because YOU don't use it... don't make assumptions that "most people" don't care about or will never use...
> 
> That is just as wrong as the assumption that "most people" wont' use DLB...


I don't know what you base you assumption about there being any significant demand for or use of the media sharing feature, but you are quite naive it you think that any more than a very small segment of HR2x owners are ever going to use this feature... there certainly was never been any call for it coming from any user community. It's a nifty little "extra", that DirecTV maybe should have considered adding after they finished addressing some of their more pressing issues (both existing bugs and highly demanded features) in their DVR software.


----------



## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> ...
> Codec and Frameworks, are dependent on the host Media Server... The HR2* is just the playback device from the data stream from those Media Servers.
> 
> ...
> 
> What about the bigger picture....
> 
> Do you really think all the work that goes into make DoD possible... is only going to be used for Dod? Or all the pieces involved with MediaShare, are not going to be used for anything else?
> 
> Again... there are a lot of assumption being made of what you see from the user level interface to the unit.... to what is being done underneath to provide that functionality.


I do think I have a bigger picture view.

first I think you are sort of right and sort of wrong regarding media server and HR2*. Yes the hr20 is a playback device, but since the audio data is DTS and the HR20 appears like it lacks the ability to deal with DTS stream you get video but no audio. Maybe there is some way to tweak the media server to transcode the audio into somthing that the HR20 could decode but I want the native DTS audio not some transcoded audio (it would be great if the HR20 would just split out the DTS stream and pass out the s/pdif) , if you take the PS3 for example as a play back device it has no issues with the exact same VOB file and the trick plays work and the UI is much slicker.

Nope, but I think they would of done better for themselvs and their customers by first being a great DVR and to me that means working well as a DVR and keeping the key features that we have come acustome like DLB a usefull slow mo and honestly I miss the tivo style recomendations that are optionaly automaticly recorded and garbage collected (intergrated in the box not requireming me to log into their website) and guide as a default, etc. to and then expanding into other areas of interest such as DoD and MediaShare, but they have a hard and long road to hoe before the hr2x catches up (if it can) with what is provided inside other non media player dedicated platforms like a PS3 or xbox, and I would assume the dedicated network media players. Once you use somthing that is eliquent for doing media sharing the HR20 feels like a wip and buggy vs a BMW. But good for them for taking a swing at the ball, I just wish it was not at the expence of somthing truly valuable like DLB.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

cartrivision said:


> I don't know what you base you assumption about there being any significant demand for or use of the media sharing feature, but you are quite naive it you think that any more than a very small segment of HR2x owners are ever going to use this feature... there certainly was never been any call for it coming from any user community. It's a nifty little "extra", that DirecTV maybe should have considered adding after they finished addressing some of their more pressing issues (both existing bugs and highly demanded features) in their DVR software.


Equally naive is the thought that any user community represents more than a "very small segment of Hr2x owners"....

If the segment that's going to use MediaShare is insignificant to the point that they shouldn't have spent time develop the features, then the segment clammoring for this feature or that feature is equally insignificant, IMHO.

Frankly, I think the "average user" is more likely to use MediaShare than DLB.

My father in law is one I would consider a "Joe Blow" user. If he had the ability to display his pictures and/or videos on his TV to all his friends, he would use it daily, without a doubt (he doesn't because he doesn't have an HR20). He would share his stuff through WMP all the time when they had friends/family over. Right now, they gather around his 19" CRT at the computer.

And he wouldn't know what to do with DLB either. To them, a DVR is nothing more than a fancy VCR, useful for recording shows they don't want to miss when they're away on business. When they're home, they watch live TV. They don't record shows - they don't even start a show 15 minutes late so they can skip commercials. They *MIGHT* pause in the middle of the show if something comes up, but even that is questionable. They're more likely to ignore whatever it is that came up and deal with it after the show.

I think, on average, the features that DirecTV has chosen to add and develop on the DVR+ platform are intended to appease the general populous... and the general populous doesn't necessarily want the same things that the more advanced users who are part of various user communities.

Don't get me wrong - I would use DLB damn near every time a Sharks game or Giants game was on... I just think we tend to have blinders on as to the "big picture" when it comes to DirecTV. Take a look at the racket that no OTA on the HR21 caused... and yet, it's been suggested that DirecTV has hard numbers as to how many users take advantage of the OTA tuner on previous models and that led directly to the ommission of the tuners in the HR21. Which shows that the "highly demanded features" of the user communities are not necessarily the highly demanded features of the average user.


----------



## raw121

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Frankly, I think the "average user" is more likely to use MediaShare than DLB.


As someone else has pointed out, everyone would use DLB whether they know they are or not. They may just not know what it is called or use its full power but they will use it.


----------



## General Custer

DLB is more likely to be used if even by accident by the average joe six pack because all you would have to do is accidentally hit the down button to find it and then exploit it. 

The average joe six pack Directv user would have to run ethernet to his HR20/1 to enable mediashare. That's not happening unless it is included as standard install. Secondly the server side of things has to be total plug and play. Turn on computer. Turn on DVR+. Watch pictures. Listen to music. Again thats not going to happen.

Directv should have duplicated all the important and core DVR features on prior models first and then expanded into newer bells and whistles. People here can suggest that fringe features such as DOD and mediashare will provide a framework for other features such as MRV all they want, but even MRV will only be used by power users unless direct TV runs ethernet cables in a typical install, finds a way to transfer shows over the RG6 from HR to dish and back down to HR or reworks the box to incorporate WIFI into the mix. 

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait for MRV but I have cat 5 running to both entertainment centers in my house.


----------



## dennisj00

I have to agree with BTMoore. . . the average user is going to be more frustrated with media share -- if he even hooks up a network cable and gets it working (?) - since the CE user base here can't get it to work reliably with additional software installed on their computers.

I have yet to get a video to play completely with sound and no video breakup with Tversity as the source. And I'm a network engineer. Granted, I don't spend a lot of time on the problem.

I also hold my breath when I play pictures that it doesn't lock up and require a reboot. Most audio works fairly good.

But the average user wants a reliable solid DVR to watch and record video.

And back to the topic, the average user may not know that he's using DLB but show him the way to switch tuners without losing buffers and he's got a new toy.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

raw121 said:


> As someone else has pointed out, everyone would use DLB whether they know they are or not. They may just not know what it is called or use its full power but they will use it.


Whoever said that is smoking the good stuff.

It's just NOT true.

My in laws do NOT watch more than one program at a time. Ever. They watch 1 show, they watch it live. They do not skip commercials, they do not flip to other channels to see what's on.

I guarantee they're not the ONLY people in America who watch TV like that.

I haven't messed with MediaShare THAT much, but sharing stuff through WMP works just fine for me... IF it worked for Joe Blow as well as it works for me, they'd be happy. I"m not trying to share DVD rips or any other "fancy" stuff. Just the pictures off our camera, basically.


----------



## Capt'n

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Frankly, I think the "average user" is more likely to use MediaShare than DLB.


Your assuming the "average user" has a network. And if the "average user" does have a network, would the majority of them be able to hook it up to the network? Or would the majority of them run out and buy a wireless adapter, or run a wire through their house all the way up to the router? This feature is an advanced user feature imo. DLB is a core feature that most people will use one way or another. Whether or not they care if they use it doesn't really matter.

Maybe we shouldn't say "average users", but instead say "majority of users".


----------



## raw121

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Whoever said that is smoking the good stuff.
> 
> It's just NOT true.
> 
> My in laws do NOT watch more than one program at a time. Ever. They watch 1 show, they watch it live. They do not skip commercials, they do not flip to other channels to see what's on.
> 
> I guarantee they're not the ONLY people in America who watch TV like that.
> 
> I haven't messed with MediaShare THAT much, but sharing stuff through WMP works just fine for me... IF it worked for Joe Blow as well as it works for me, they'd be happy. I"m not trying to share DVD rips or any other "fancy" stuff. Just the pictures off our camera, basically.


Since it is always active they WILL use it. You have never accidentally pressed a button on a remote and changed the channel? Hit the channel up instead of the volume up? You have never watched a show on channel A then watched a show on channel B and the switched back to channel A for another show? All of these would take advantage of DLB without anyone having to know that it does. That is the great thing about DLB is that it just works without doing anything special.


----------



## Capt'n

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Whoever said that is smoking the good stuff.
> 
> It's just NOT true.
> 
> My in laws do NOT watch more than one program at a time. Ever. They watch 1 show, they watch it live. They do not skip commercials, they do not flip to other channels to see what's on.
> 
> I guarantee they're not the ONLY people in America who watch TV like that.


Did your in laws ever have an hr10?

If your in laws don't skip commercials or flip channels, then they can hardly be included as a majority or average user.


----------



## jheda

Sharkie_Fan said:


> _My in laws do NOT watch more than one program at a time. Ever. They watch 1 show, they watch it live. They do not skip commercials, they do not flip to other channels to see what's on._
> 
> The response begs the question...why then do they need a DVR? Moreover they dont sound like they even need a VCR?
> 
> Im not being facicious; clearly though these are not the average Joe *DVR's USERS*.


----------



## dennisj00

Sounds like my mother that had a VCR for 20 years or so. . . never recorded a single program.

And had a very progressive way to get rid of the flashing 12:00 -- a piece of electical tape over the clock.

But she would have used DLB since it only took one button on the remote!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> I don't know what you base you assumption about there being any significant demand for or use of the media sharing feature, but you are quite naive it you think that any more than a very small segment of HR2x owners are ever going to use this feature... there certainly was never been any call for it coming from any user community. It's a nifty little "extra", that DirecTV maybe should have considered adding after they finished addressing some of their more pressing issues (both existing bugs and highly demanded features) in their DVR software.


Where am I making an assumption about the usage level of Media Share?
All I said, was that you can't assume that it is not being used by enough of a population to warrant it's development and work.


----------



## ToddinVA

My sister recently moved from a TiVo Series 2 to a Cox Motorola DVR since they got a new HDTV. She said that she liked the TiVo interface a LOT better than the Motorola, but she had discovered being able to switch between it's 2 tuners and really liked that feature of it. She wanted to know if it was in the new TiVos...

She is not a techie and wouldn't be on this forum, but loves DLB, even though she didn't know it had a specific name.


----------



## mooresmsr

Just upgraded from Tivo HD (the old HR10, I think), and quickly found that the feature I liked most is missing on the Directv DVR. That feature is DLB. I puzzled out the "workaround" pretty fast, but found that the pause button doesn't work when going from one tuner/buffer to the other. I switch from the non-recorded show to the recorded show (after hitting the pause button) and when I switch back, the non-recorded show is at its current time location, not the paused location. This sucks a lot. If there wasn't a big deal about the switch to MPEG-4 and not being able to get high def channels at all, I wouldn't have switched. I'm about 90% sorry I did even now, primarily because the HR21 just isn't in the same league with Tivo, not just because of the DLB difference, but because of all the features I lost with the new HR21.

SMM


----------



## Capt'n

I had mine installed two days ago. I spent about an hour playing with it and haven't turned it on sense. I followed my HR10 to the game room. I suppose I'll have to go down there eventually. I thought I prepared myself for this, but it's a bigger shock than I thought it would be. I think I would feel much better about this if it had DLB. I hope it's coming soon or at least coming.


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> Where am I making an assumption about the usage level of Media Share?
> All I said, was that you can't assume that it is not being used by enough of a population to warrant it's development and work.


That's not what I said. It's impossible to judge if a feature's use will ever "warrant's it's development and work", but that doesn't change the fact there was no evidence of any significant demand for media sharing, and if you think that any significant number of HR2x owners are going to use it, then you are the one making a very bad assumption. Despite the fact that it may be used by some people and development of the feature might be warranted at some point in time, what wasn't warranted was development resources being dedicated to the feature ahead of what are clearly much higher value features and bug fixes.

The whole problem is the development team management's wacky lack of sensible priorities. You talk about how many of the various features (including media sharing) are interrelated and build upon each other, and I can see how that is true, but that doesn't change the fact that media sharing should have been a little niche add-on afterthought after more important networking functions like MRV are deployed and completely functional.


----------



## Drew2k

cartrivision said:


> That's not what I said. It's impossible to judge if a feature's use will ever "warrant's it's development and work", but that doesn't change the fact there was no evidence of any significant demand for media sharing, and if you think that any significant number of HR2x owners are going to use it, then you are the one making a very bad assumption.


There's a disconnect here ...

Earl never said hat Media Share is a high-demand feature, he only responded to the unfounded assertion that there are features that "most people don't care about":



cartrivision said:


> Green23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly- without DLB it should be called "DVR-"
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the "+" stands for *features that most people don't care about *and will never use, like media sharing.
Click to expand...




Earl Bonovich said:


> Just because YOU don't use it... don't make assumptions *that "most people" don't care about* or will never use...
> 
> That is just as wrong as the assumption that "most people" wont' use DLB...


----------



## tiger2005

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Don't get me wrong - I would use DLB damn near every time a Sharks game or Giants game was on... I just think we tend to have blinders on as to the "big picture" when it comes to DirecTV. Take a look at the racket that no OTA on the HR21 caused... and yet, it's been suggested that DirecTV has hard numbers as to how many users take advantage of the OTA tuner on previous models and that led directly to the ommission of the tuners in the HR21. Which shows that the "highly demanded features" of the user communities are not necessarily the highly demanded features of the average user.


I would take the other side of that debate and say that DirecTV's market research is totally useless. They keep eliminating features, like the OTA tuner, DLB, etc. that seem to be valued by their customers. Yes, its hard to judge the population of their subscribers that really use such features, but the fact that they've had to come up with alternate solutions (OTA adapter for the HR21) to features they've eliminated, seems to tell me two things, 1.) A significant population outside of the members here at DBSTalk were upset by the loss of OTA, and 2.) Given that, how accurate are those numbers they keep using to eliminate those 'little used' features?


----------



## Lord Vader

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Frankly, I think the "average user" is more likely to use MediaShare than DLB.


You couldn't be more wrong. "Average user" is a term that cannot even apply to one who'd use Media Sharing. For one thing, that's an advanced feature that requires a PC, connectivity, etc., and very few overall users do that, let alone even know what it is. However, DLB is something ALL users do or can use, without even knowing what it's called (that being "DLB" by those of us in the know).


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Lord Vader said:


> You couldn't be more wrong. "Average user" is a term that cannot even apply to one who'd use Media Sharing. For one thing, that's an advanced feature that requires a PC, connectivity, etc., and very few overall users do that, let alone even know what it is. However, DLB is something ALL users do or can use, without even knowing what it's called (that being "DLB" by those of us in the know).


We can agree to disagree then.

The people I've spoken to are more likely to use Media Share than DLB. I realize that's anecdotal evidence at best, and being in the middle of the Silicon Valley, people here tend to like their techno toys.

The people I've spoken to are more likely to watch one show, and record the second show they want to watch, rather than flip between the two.

Granted, there are no "Sports Nuts" in my immediate circle of friends. I'm the most avid sports fan, and, if it's not hockey, it's not THAT important. In my younger days, I would watch whatever sport was on and I realize how useful DLB can be when you're keeping tabs on multiple games.

At this stage of my life, and most of our friends are at the same stage, we have two young kids and I'd rather be able to display my pictures on the TV than switch between 2 live shows.... The same goes for our parents (the proud grandparents).

I think that many people fail to see the broad appeal that Media Share can have to the "average" user base. There are alot of people who would use that feature, but who won't spend the money on a dedicated media server. The HR20 can serve a purpose for those people.

And again, this isn't an ANTI-DLB position. I just think that it's pretty silly some of the claims that are being made in this thread. "EVERYONE" will not use DLB. No matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. Second, I just think the appeal of some of these features, like Media Share, is underrated.


----------



## raw121

Sharkie_Fan said:


> And again, this isn't an ANTI-DLB position. I just think that it's pretty silly some of the claims that are being made in this thread. "EVERYONE" will not use DLB. No matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. Second, I just think the appeal of some of these features, like Media Share, is underrated.


Since you can not turn it off you have to use it. It is that simple. The value you derive from it is what will vary.


----------



## Lord Vader

Sharkie_Fan said:


> We can agree to disagree then.
> 
> The people I've spoken to are more likely to use Media Share than DLB. I realize that's anecdotal evidence at best, and being in the middle of the Silicon Valley, people here tend to like their techno toys.
> 
> The people I've spoken to are more likely to watch one show, and record the second show they want to watch, rather than flip between the two.
> 
> Granted, there are no "Sports Nuts" in my immediate circle of friends. I'm the most avid sports fan, and, if it's not hockey, it's not THAT important. In my younger days, I would watch whatever sport was on and I realize how useful DLB can be when you're keeping tabs on multiple games.
> 
> At this stage of my life, and most of our friends are at the same stage, we have two young kids and I'd rather be able to display my pictures on the TV than switch between 2 live shows.... The same goes for our parents (the proud grandparents).
> 
> I think that many people fail to see the broad appeal that Media Share can have to the "average" user base. There are alot of people who would use that feature, but who won't spend the money on a dedicated media server. The HR20 can serve a purpose for those people.
> 
> And again, this isn't an ANTI-DLB position. I just think that it's pretty silly some of the claims that are being made in this thread. "EVERYONE" will not use DLB. No matter how many times you say it, it won't make it true. Second, I just think the appeal of some of these features, like Media Share, is underrated.


_*Everybody*_ uses DLB, often by accident, whether they know it or not. Comparatively speaking, _*very few*_ use Media Sharing. Moreover, not everyone is capable of using Media Sharing. _*Everyone*_ is capable of using DLB. (Note: I'm talking about the DirecTV/TIVO receivers, of course, when it comes to DLB specifically.)

The difference between the two is vast.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

raw121 said:


> Since you can not turn it off you have to use it. It is that simple.


That's the most inane argument I've heard yet.

If you don't ever switch to the second buffer, then you aren't "using" DLB. Sure, there's a buffer back there doing it's thing, but if you don't access it, then the second buffer is irrelevant.

And if you're recording a program while watching a second, which I think ALOT of people do, the second buffer is irrelevant. If there are two shows on in one time slot that my wife wants to watch, she'll record one and watch the other. She won't take advantage of 2 live buffers to watch the two shows simultaneously.

Anytime someone does that it takes the second live buffer out of the equation.

So again, no matter how many times you say it, everyone will NOT *use* dual live buffers.


----------



## beer_geek

Silicon Valley residents = average users of electronic equipment????????


----------



## Tom Robertson

We really don't need to get into a discussion of "My feature is bigger (used) than your feature." There are a fair number of reasons and uses for all the features--except for making toast. 

So let us keep this discussion about DLB and leave out Mediashare, MRV, DoD, etc. :backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Lord Vader

Sharkie_Fan said:


> So again, no matter how many times you say it, everyone will NOT *use* dual live buffers.


Au contraire. Everyone _*has*_ used it, often by accident, as I stated earlier.

I know of at least a dozen people personally who never knew what "DLB" was, but switched from one tuner to the other, all without even knowing what they were doing. Only after I provided them all with more technical explanations did they realize what the "feature" was called.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Everyone is a whole lotta people. :eek2:

And I know of people who were hooked up in single tuner mode, so they never used it. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Lord Vader said:


> _*Everybody*_ uses DLB, often by accident, whether they know it or not. Comparatively speaking, _*very few*_ use Media Sharing. Moreover, not everyone is capable of using Media Sharing. _*Everyone*_ is capable of using DLB. (Note: I'm talking about the DirecTV/TIVO receivers, of course, when it comes to DLB specifically.)
> 
> The difference between the two is vast.


Again, we can agree to disagree on whether EVERYBODY uses it. And how do you use DLB without KNOWING it? If you accidentally change the channel and then change back, DLB only does you any good if you rewind. If you don't know the feature is there, and you do not rewind to see what you missed, then you haven't USED the feature.

And why is everyone not capable of using Media Share? If you have an HR20, you have the ability. You may not choose to set it up, but the feature is there for everyone to use.

I fail to see why this is an either/or proposition. Two things can be equally true. A large number of people want DLB. Media Share can also be an appealing feature to the masses. And if it's an either/or based on the idea that these features are being developed instead of DLB... how can one make that assumption when they have no idea the size of the development team and who's working on what? What if they had 2 guys working on Media Share while another 5 are working on implementing DLB. The 2 guys finished first and the feature gets turned on while the team of 5 is still working on how best to implement thier feature....


----------



## raw121

Sharkie_Fan said:


> That's the most inane argument I've heard yet.
> 
> If you don't ever switch to the second buffer, then you aren't "using" DLB. Sure, there's a buffer back there doing it's thing, but if you don't access it, then the second buffer is irrelevant.
> 
> And if you're recording a program while watching a second, which I think ALOT of people do, the second buffer is irrelevant. If there are two shows on in one time slot that my wife wants to watch, she'll record one and watch the other. She won't take advantage of 2 live buffers to watch the two shows simultaneously.
> 
> Anytime someone does that it takes the second live buffer out of the equation.
> 
> So again, no matter how many times you say it, everyone will NOT *use* dual live buffers.


The only way to never use DLB is to never ever change the channel from the time you boot up the system. This is the only way.

Edit. Well other than only having one tuner hooked up.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

raw121 said:


> The only way to never use DLB is to never ever change the channel from the time you boot up the system. This is the only way.


There is a big different between "using" DLB... and it just functioning in the background.

If you never toggle your live buffers on purpose... are you really "using" DLB?

That would the same as saying you are always using your single live buffer... even if you never rewind live TV into it. You are using it, just not accessing it.


----------



## richlife

btmoore said:


> I hear ya, no way to know for sure with out hireing a market research orginization to do the research, but that being said based on what I know and seen from friends, co-workers, etc. I have a hard time seeing a mass appeal in the annemic "+" features as implemented by D* where the ability to swap live buffered tuners just makes good business logic as it was part of the user experience for years.


WHEW! Getting HOT in here! I think btmoore has hit it right on the head (and I DO also agree with Earl that we must see the big picture). bt's biggest point is that DLB is missing -- it's a significant function whether everyone uses it or not. It does not appear to require the vast programming effort required that most of the other features btmoore described does.

So why is DirecTV steadfastly ignore DLB? That (not one feature versus another) is the valid question. DirecTV has been attentive and cooperative in fixing reported problems, providing Wish List items, offering the CE program, etc. What is the issue over DLB? There is hardly any more devisive issue for the hotheads here on DBSTalk, but no one has a clue as to why.

If DirecTV gave us a CE with DLB, an awful lot of us would be VERY pleased. There may be a few who will be very displeased (I guess just because they don't want a feature that would please others but not themselves). From the polls, those pleased at some level (even if simply to get the rhetoric out of the forum) way outnumber those who would be unhappy -- for the most part, we can't know the "average" user but we have to assume they are somewhat consistent with this biased sample.

I think DirecTV should just give us DLB or else toss us a bone and say why not. We actually DO deserve at least that much. (If the answer is "because I said so" then we can be expected to provide a 5-year old reaction -- but how is that any different from the current situation?)


----------



## Earl Bonovich

If it where just that simple to "give you" DLB... they probably would...
But this is reality, and it isn't "that simple"

And they are not "steadfastly" ignoring DLB...
The fact remains, they decided way back when... DLB was not included.

And they have their reasons.

But as of right now, DLB has not been 100% taken off the table for future development. But as of right now, there is no update to give to any of you, other then what has already been said for the last 18 months.

Since nothing has changed... what else is to be said from DirecTV?


----------



## Dr. Booda

AZ_Engineer said:


> Quick data point. I was at CES in January, and when I stopped at the Dish booth and asked the guy manning a demo why I should switch from DirectTV to them, his first statement was "We have dual live buffers" !! I kid you not. Maybe that's the only advantage they have, but that was his first statement...joe


I'm amazed by this statement from a trade show floor. I know that Dish has been running ads that tout their DVR equipment, but to have a Sales rep mention DLB as the first reason to switch providers is telling.

Also, why would Dish make that statement? Where are they getting the customer input from? These forum boards? Dissatisfied customers that have switched to them? They didn't just make it up without any knowledge of the situation. Perhaps this gives insight towards the significance of the feature for the average consumer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Dr. Booda said:


> I'm amazed by this statement from a trade show floor. I know that Dish has been running ads that tout their DVR equipment, but to have a Sales rep mention DLB as the first reason to switch providers is telling.
> 
> Also, why would Dish make that statement? Where are they getting the customer input from? These forum boards? Dissatisfied customers that have switched to them? They didn't just make it up without any knowledge of the situation. Perhaps this gives insight towards the significance of the feature for the average consumer.


Or it could be the reps personal "main reason"...
Or that could have just been the topic of discussion he had with the last person that was there.

If it was Dish's stance... I am sure they would have no issues adding it to their advertising, since they take swings at "Better then TiVo" in their current campaign.


----------



## richlife

Earl, I'm really not trying to one up you and I won't post any more on this particular item. I agree with btmoore more than I do with you. None of those other features is "simple" either. As for "ignoring DLB", that appears to be valid. 18 months ago there was no CE program, we didn't have all the fixes we have, we didn't have the Wish List items fulfilled. And we didn't and don't have DLB. Given the significant response on DBSTalk on the DLB issue, I have to believe it and we are being ignored on this one particular feature.

Edit: My it's hard to be silent when you have an opinion... Ignore mean are aware of the issue and choose to be completely unresponsive.



Earl Bonovich said:


> If it where just that simple to "give you" DLB... they probably would...
> But this is reality, and it isn't "that simple"
> 
> And they are not "steadfastly" ignoring DLB...
> The fact remains, they decided way back when... DLB was not included.
> 
> And they have their reasons.
> 
> But as of right now, DLB has not been 100% taken off the table for future development. But as of right now, there is no update to give to any of you, other then what has already been said for the last 18 months.
> 
> Since nothing has changed... what else is to be said from DirecTV?


----------



## mikewolf13

richlife said:


> Earl, I'm really not trying to one up you and I won't post any more on this particular item. I agree with btmoore more than I do with you. None of those other features is "simple" either. As for "ignoring DLB", that appears to be valid. 18 months ago there was no CE program, we didn't have all the fixes we have, we didn't have the Wish List items fulfilled. And we didn't and don't have DLB. Given the significant response on DBSTalk on the DLB issue, I have to believe it and we are being ignored on this one particular feature.


'Ignore' implies they aren't listening and don't know of the demand

That's different than being aware and choosing not to do it anyway.

DTV answers all prayers...sometimes the answer is no......


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> 'Ignore' implies they aren't listening and don't know of the demand
> 
> That's different than being aware and choosing not to do it anyway.
> 
> DTV answers all prayers...sometimes the answer is no......


Ding Ding...


----------



## Indiana627

Earl Bonovich said:


> The fact remains, they decided way back when... DLB was not included.
> 
> And they have their reasons.


There was a reason to not include DLB? Sounds like flawed reasoning to me.

Was is just because they were behind in the HR20 development and needed to get it released, so they said 'scrap DLB?'


----------



## Doug Brott

mooresmsr said:


> Just upgraded from Tivo HD (the old HR10, I think), and quickly found that the feature I liked most is missing on the Directv DVR. That feature is DLB. I puzzled out the "workaround" pretty fast, but found that the pause button doesn't work when going from one tuner/buffer to the other. I switch from the non-recorded show to the recorded show (after hitting the pause button) and when I switch back, the non-recorded show is at its current time location, not the paused location. This sucks a lot.


Yes, prior to firmware version 0x1EA the workaround is not as effective. Since you have an HR21, you are likely not up to the latest revision just yet which is why it's not working the way you expect.


----------



## Doug Brott

beer_geek said:


> Silicon Valley residents = average users of electronic equipment????????


Just because someone lives in Silicon Valley does not necessarily make them tech-heavy. I know plenty of folks out here who don't know the difference between an Ethernet Connection and a Phone Line.


----------



## starbiker99

My wife and and 12 year old son both also enjoy using the DLB feature and have complained many times about the new HR21 not having it. The slowness of the guide is about ready to get me kicked out. My wife even told me last weekend that the new DTV box was a POS. I could sign both of them up here and get 2 more votes (pro DLB) but it obviously isn't going to do much. In our house this feature is used on our Directivo's EVERY day.


----------



## Doug Brott

Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


----------



## Capt'n

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, prior to firmware version 0x1EA the workaround is not as effective. Since you have an HR21, you are likely not up to the latest revision just yet which is why it's not working the way you expect.


So your saying that once we get the new firmware that pause will work when going between the recorded show and the other tuner? I just got my hr21 and it works like mooresmsr's does.


----------



## cadet502

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


I was one who used to say this was a dealbreaker, but I'm a sucker for the content. If it wasn't for the MPEG4 situation, I'd still be using my HR10 as my main DVR.


----------



## Capt'n

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


I got my my hr21 three days ago and I find myself watching the hr10 in the game room instead. So as of right now, my viewing followed the hr10. I'm sure that will change once I start watching more of the HD content. But people are using it because they don't have a choice.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


I think that would be to get the additional HD.

Would it be a fair statement that most HR20 owners care more about the HD programing than about the boxes features.


----------



## jheda

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


Doug, I love you, but 97% of the population on the hr20 and hr21 thread woud likely HAVE an HR2x to begin with...maybe 2-3% trolling, dont you agree? Said otherwise, we dont know how many havent converted yet and therefore have no interest in a thread for a unit they dont own, IMHO


----------



## btmoore

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


Not interesting or supprising at all, when there is no alternitive for a D* customer with the execption of changing providers, so the 97% of us are sort of stuck taking what D* tells us is good for us and by not providing DLB obviously we realy don't need or want DLB. So you are basicly left with the option having to do the research on finding a new provider just to get DLB, which becomes an issue of the devil you know vs the devil you don't and the willingness to invest the time, money and effort to get back DLB features you use to have for years. Speaking for myself, what keeps me a D* customer is more the hassel assoicated with change and lack of knowledge of the state of my optinos vs a compelling value and way way way back I paid the lifetime fee so I don't have any DVR fees as well as I have a grandfatherd package so I have been somewhat immune to rate changes. I think the only no brainer for me would be to convert to fios but sadly, no fios in my area, hell if we had it I would likely be gone in a heartbeat.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jheda said:


> Doug, I love you


I'm not sure this is the right place for romance between jheda and Doug Brott.

But seriously, Doug makes the point that hundreds of thousands of HD DVRs are selling and continue to sell, and DIRECTV updates them regularly in good faith. Why haven't they made this change? What can I tell you. But certainly if DIRECTV had hard evidence that DLBs, or the lack, were costing them customers, they would act on that.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Indiana627 said:


> There was a reason to not include DLB? Sounds like flawed reasoning to me.
> 
> Was is just because they were behind in the HR20 development and needed to get it released, so they said 'scrap DLB?'


Actually the decision to not have DLB in the platform was made 12-18 months earlier, when they decided NOT to have it in the R15 platform.

This DLB issue, is not isolated to the HR20... this is a discussion that has been going on for almost 28 months now.


----------



## Indiana627

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually the decision to not have DLB in the platform was made 12-18 months earlier, when they decided NOT to have it in the R15 platform.
> 
> This DLB issue, is not isolated to the HR20... this is a discussion that has been going on for almost 28 months now.


I'd still love to know their reasoning as I still think it's flawed.


----------



## starbiker99

28 months ago, today, or tomorrow the decision to leave out DLB just doesn't appear to make sense to a lot of us!


----------



## Indiana627

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


That's only because all the new MPEG4 HD trumps DLB. If the HR10 could get all the new HD channels, I'd still be using it.


----------



## btmoore

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually the decision to not have DLB in the platform was made 12-18 months earlier, when they decided NOT to have it in the R15 platform.
> 
> This DLB issue, is not isolated to the HR20... this is a discussion that has been going on for almost 28 months now.


Got to love a *28 month old *compelling issue, from a largish community of paying customers, IMO that is showing some real disrespect to people who pay their bills.


----------



## starbiker99

It is operant that this is only a compelling issue to SOME.



btmoore said:


> Got to love a *28 month old *compelling issue, from a largish community of paying customers, IMO that is showing some real disrespect to people who pay their bills.


----------



## Capt'n

starbiker99 said:


> It is operant that this is only a compelling issue to SOME.


I think the only real compelling issue here that we can all agree on is we all want D* to put out the best product that they possibly can. Any feature that gets added is a good thing whether you'll use it or not. It will make the product that much better. Just like every other thing on the wishlist will make it that much better. That doesn't mean every user has to want every feature on the list for it to get added. What I don't understand is why D* elected to keep a widely used feature from us when every other provider looks at DLB as a core feature.


----------



## anubys

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm not sure this is the right place for romance between jheda and Doug Brott.
> 
> But seriously, Doug makes the point that hundreds of thousands of HD DVRs are selling and continue to sell, and DIRECTV updates them regularly in good faith. Why haven't they made this change? What can I tell you. But certainly if DIRECTV had hard evidence that DLBs, or the lack, were costing them customers, they would act on that.


well, I love the HR20...I think it's a great product...I love the new HD content...

they didn't lose me as a customer, but I'm not 100% satisfied either...which counts for something...


----------



## beer_geek

Doug Brott said:


> Just because someone lives in Silicon Valley does not necessarily make them tech-heavy.


True, but it certainly improves the chances.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

btmoore said:


> Got to love a *28 month old *compelling issue, from a lB]largish [/B]community of paying customers, IMO that is showing some real disrespect to people who pay their bills.


What percentage of the total number of HR2x DVRs in the field do you think are represented in this "largish" community? Or even in several user forums combined?

I'm not being fecetious... I don't know the number in these forums, nor the total number of HR2x's.... so I realize anything we came up with would be a guess... But how "large" do we think this community is? 1% of all HR2x? 5%? 10%?

I'm guessing that "we" represent a much smaller number than we think. I also think that a fair number of people who are looking for "DLB" or "How do I switch between tuners" will have found a community in search of the answer to their "missing feature".

If both of the above are true, this simply could be a case where DirecTV doesn't have any compelling reason to add this feature... I don't know. All we do know is that no DVR+ has the feature, and from what they've told Earl, it's not "off the table", but it's seems to be at the FAR, FAR end of the table, teetering dangerously close to the edge. That, to me, says that the outcry to add the feature isn't nearly as big as we'd like to think it is.


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> Although > 62% want DLB to function the way it did on the HR10, it's interesting to note that 97% have chosen to use the HD DVR+ series despite the lack of DLBs. This may be the most telling reason as to why DLBs have not been implemented to this point.


All new subscribers for two plus years have only had DVR+ as an integrated option. ( outside of 3rd party- non- supoorted - non MPEG4 TIvos)

Saying that the absence of a feature is endorsed simply becuase there are so many DVR+ owners is misleading.

Unless you think that 16 million people chose DTV over Cable because of the NASA channel......

In a poll Earl, started in October 55% of responders indicated that they would trade their for HR20 for a TIVo..this was after 10 months of CE. Does that mean 55% prefer TIvo Suggestions to the Picture-In-Guide?

I doubt it....

Now if, there were a HR22 with DLB and people still shose the SLB HR21...then you would have a point of people choosing not to have it........hey a noble idea!


----------



## btmoore

Capt'n;1440121 said:


> ...Any feature that gets added is a good thing whether you'll use it or not. It will make the product that much better. ...


IMO, I don't consider this an add, I consider this a feature that was taken away.

For many many many years had a D* DVR it had DLB (and other features I miss, but I digress). D* then came out with a new DVR that forces a customer equipment change because of their technical challenges with bandwidth management, and in this new DVR they removed DLB, IMO one of the most useful user experience features for an unknown super secret compelling future value proposition that has yet to come to the forefront even now, 28 months later from when apparently the new DVR+ platform was conceived.


----------



## btmoore

[


Sharkie_Fan said:


> What percentage of the total number of HR2x DVRs in the field do you think are represented in this "largish" community? Or even in several user forums combined?
> 
> I'm not being fecetious... I don't know the number in these forums, nor the total number of HR2x's.... so I realize anything we came up with would be a guess... But how "large" do we think this community is? 1% of all HR2x? 5%? 10%?
> 
> I'm guessing that "we" represent a much smaller number than we think. I also think that a fair number of people who are looking for "DLB" or "How do I switch between tuners" will have found a community in search of the answer to their "missing feature".
> 
> If both of the above are true, this simply could be a case where DirecTV doesn't have any compelling reason to add this feature... I don't know. All we do know is that no DVR+ has the feature, and from what they've told Earl, it's not "off the table", but it's seems to be at the FAR, FAR end of the table, teetering dangerously close to the edge. That, to me, says that the outcry to add the feature isn't nearly as big as we'd like to think it is.


Well I don't know how large we are as a community vs unassociated HR20 owners not sure it realy matters. I am not aware of any other community of HR2X owners, so maybe we are the largest which at least gives us a collective voice to yell into the dark non responsive void that is D* "I want my DLB back".

One customer who was not part of a community, he/she may not even know what to call DLB, and may not even know how to complain to D* about something like DLB missing.

As an independent customer of D* I don't think they give a rats ass what I say if I call or write to them. Back years ago, I remember at least 2 years of complaining to them about how they had ghosting on some of the SD locals that they were rebroadcasting, I could never crack the code to have them fix their freaking antenna.

But maybe, just maybe, since there is this group, where clearly the majority of this representative community wants back the feature they use to have. And if frustrating the people who pay your bills and paycheck is not a compelling reason for putting back the feature you removed, I don't know what is.


----------



## jheda

Sharkie_Fan said:


> What percentage of the total number of HR2x DVRs in the field do you think are represented in this "largish" community? Or even in several user forums combined?
> 
> I'm not being fecetious... I don't know the number in these forums, nor the total number of HR2x's.... so I realize anything we came up with would be a guess... But how "large" do we think this community is? 1% of all HR2x? 5%? 10%?
> 
> I'm guessing that "we" represent a much smaller number than we think. I also think that a fair number of people who are looking for "DLB" or "How do I switch between tuners" will have found a community in search of the answer to their "missing feature".
> 
> If both of the above are true, this simply could be a case where DirecTV doesn't have any compelling reason to add this feature... I don't know. All we do know is that no DVR+ has the feature, and from what they've told Earl, it's not "off the table", but it's seems to be at the FAR, FAR end of the table, teetering dangerously close to the edge. _That, to me, says that the outcry to add the feature isn't nearly as big as we'd like to think it is_.


You had me till the lsat sentence Sharkie. That is clearly a quantum leap. We have no idea how loud the outcry is; we only know that they hear us because of Earl and this site.


----------



## Capt'n

btmoore said:


> IMO, I don't consider this an add, I consider this a feature that was taken away.
> 
> For many many many years had a D* DVR it had DLB (and other features I miss, but I digress). D* then came out with a new DVR that forces a customer equipment change because of their technical challenges with bandwidth management, and in this new DVR they removed DLB, IMO one of the most useful user experience features for an unknown super secret compelling future value proposition that has yet to come to the forefront even now, 28 months later from when apparently the new DVR+ platform was conceived.


I agree 100%. But technically sense the feature was never included on the HR2x, it wasn't taken away. It needs to be added. But then again they kept the same model number sequence, so technically the hr2x is an upgrade within the HR model line. So I suppose you could say it got taken away. I guess the argument can go both ways.

I was just upgraded three days ago so I also feel it was taken away from me.


----------



## ATARI

anubys said:


> well, I love the HR20...I think it's a great product...I love the new HD content...
> 
> they didn't lose me as a customer, but I'm not 100% satisfied either...which counts for something...


+1


----------



## ATARI

I just want to add that it is obvious to me that D* is listening and does care. Afterall, they have added FF autocorrect and 30 sec. skip.

Now if they would add DLB, I would be 100% satisfied.


----------



## rawilson

I said it on the other thread...I'll say it here. If when my contract runs out there is no DLB support, I will switch to Dish. They have plenty of HD content for me and a far superior DVR as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rawilson said:


> I said it on the other thread...I'll say it here. If when my contract runs out there is no DLB support, I will switch to Dish. They have plenty of HD content for me and a far superior DVR as far as I'm concerned.


And when you switch, someone from Dish will switch to DirecTV... for their own reasons.

Multiple Carriers, Multiple Choices... so you the consumer can find a service with the features that are most important to you.


----------



## jahgreen

tiger2005 said:


> I would take the other side of that debate and say that DirecTV's market research is totally useless. They keep eliminating features, like the OTA tuner, DLB, etc. that seem to be valued by their customers. Yes, its hard to judge the population of their subscribers that really use such features, but the fact that they've had to come up with alternate solutions (OTA adapter for the HR21) to features they've eliminated, seems to tell me two things, 1.) A significant population outside of the members here at DBSTalk were upset by the loss of OTA, and 2.) Given that, how accurate are those numbers they keep using to eliminate those 'little used' features?


The OTA step is different. If only a minority of users need OTA capability, then it makes sense to save money by employing a receiver without OTA, and to charge those who want OTA for the necessary adapter. Market research isn't the sole driver of a business. It makes sense to maximize profit, too, and the change on OTA seems to me to be a decision driven to reduce cost. Especially considering that the need for OTA will continue to shrink.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

jheda said:


> You had me till the lsat sentence Sharkie. That is clearly a quantum leap. We have no idea how loud the outcry is; we only know that they hear us because of Earl and this site.


I don't think it's all that far of a leap. Based on the responsiveness to other "pet peeves" in the last year. And based on the fact that they've now released their 4th machine in the DVR+ line (R15, R16, HR20, HR21) and they haven't acted.

I'm not saying we're the ONLY ones asking for it and they've NEVER had a request for it through other lines of communication (phones, emails, letters, installers, etc). What I'm suggesting is that if ALL those lines of communication were experiencing the amount of chatter that we have in these forums, I think something would be done.

The fact that nothing is being done, I think the next logical assumption is that the outcry across the ENTIRE population of DirecTV customers isn't as loud as we'd like to think it is (or should be). And that lack of outcry leaves them uncompelled to change the status quo.


----------



## ceored

D* is too big and too smart to just ignore the DLB issue. They have their reason somewhere and to me it has to be money, plain and simple. Advertisers may be pressuring them to limit DVR features as much as they can. With DLB you can pretty watch 2 live TV shows without any commercials, which is what I did with it. Or content providers may not like it. Or focus groups said it wasn't important. Or it is technically too complex to implement (doubtful). Whatever the reason is, until it makes sense to the bottom line they will not give it another thought. I'm not doing my part as I just got a HR21 rather than leaving D*, so I'll just have to hope for DLB and not complain, too much.


----------



## jheda

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't think it's all that far of a leap. Based on the responsiveness to other "pet peeves" in the last year. And based on the fact that they've now released their 4th machine in the DVR+ line (R15, R16, HR20, HR21) and they haven't acted.
> 
> I'm not saying we're the ONLY ones asking for it and they've NEVER had a request for it through other lines of communication (phones, emails, letters, installers, etc). What I'm suggesting is that if ALL those lines of communication were experiencing the amount of chatter that we have in these forums, I think something would be done.
> 
> The fact that nothing is being done, I think the next logical assumption is that the outcry across the ENTIRE population of DirecTV customers isn't as loud as we'd like to think it is (or should be). And that lack of outcry leaves them uncompelled to change the status quo.


Or, the DVR+ platform did not have DLB on its drawing board, and the addition of DLB wont be implimented DESPITE the outcries, for reasons DTV is not disclosing.


----------



## jgriffin7

Indiana627 said:


> That's only because all the new MPEG4 HD trumps DLB. If the HR10 could get all the new HD channels, I'd still be using it.


+1
I was forced to go to the HR20 platform to get the new HD.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

jheda said:


> Or, the DVR+ platform did not have DLB on its drawing board, and the addition of DLB wont be implimented DESPITE the outcries, for reasons DTV is not disclosing.


Certainly that's a possibility... There are alot of possible explanations to why they don't have the feature.

However, They have said, through Earl that DLB is not "off the table", but there's nothing "new to report" at this point.

To me, that sounds like it's a feature that they'd consider if they felt demand was high enough, and they don't feel the demand warrants the addition of the feature.


----------



## jheda

Sharkie, simply reivew Earls posts in QUE's DLB thread and you will find that the issue is not "lack of demand".


----------



## btmoore

jheda said:


> Sharkie, simply reivew Earls posts in QUE's DLB thread and you will find that the issue is not "lack of demand".


Its a 28 month old secret. We all just don't know any better that the lack of DLB is good for us.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ceored said:


> D* is too big and too smart to just ignore the DLB issue. They have their reason somewhere and to me it has to be money, plain and simple. Advertisers may be pressuring them to limit DVR features as much as they can. With DLB you can pretty watch 2 live TV shows without any commercials, which is what I did with it. Or content providers may not like it. Or focus groups said it wasn't important. Or it is technically too complex to implement (doubtful). Whatever the reason is, until it makes sense to the bottom line they will not give it another thought. I'm not doing my part as I just got a HR21 rather than leaving D*, so I'll just have to hope for DLB and not complain, too much.


As I pointed out many many times before...

What's the difference (from an advertising argument) between recording two shows... and watching two shows live, even with DLB...

It is almost a guarantee it is easier to "skip" the advertisements on a recorded content... with any type of DLB or SLB implementation you are going to see more.

Plus it still doesn't get rid of the core issue of people just flipping the channel or walking away.

So again, it is ZERO to do with advertising $'s.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I pointed out many many times before...
> 
> What's the difference (from an advertising argument) between recording two shows... and watching two shows live, even with DLB...
> 
> It is almost a guarantee it is easier to "skip" the advertisements on a recorded content... with any type of DLB or SLB implementation you are going to see more.
> 
> Plus it still doesn't get rid of the core issue of people just flipping the channel or walking away.
> 
> So again, it is ZERO to do with advertising $'s.


Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?

Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> Doug, I love you, but 97% of the population on the hr20 and hr21 thread woud likely HAVE an HR2x to begin with...maybe 2-3% trolling, dont you agree? Said otherwise, we dont know how many havent converted yet and therefore have no interest in a thread for a unit they dont own, IMHO


That is a good point.


----------



## btmoore

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?
> 
> Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.


I vote the reason for no DLB is because of a passive aggressive product marketing middle manager responsible for product features in the HR2X line who is frustrated by low pay and a superiority complex. Maybe it is that JB guy?


----------



## Doug Brott

mikewolf13 said:


> Saying that the absence of a feature is endorsed simply becuase there are so many DVR+ owners is misleading.


Actually, this is not what I said at all. In fact, I said that 62% really wanted it based solely on the information in this thread .. Really, the number is higher than that just reading the actual poll options, but 62% is already clearly a majority .. no need to look farther.

My comment was simply that 97% of the folks here have chosen to stick with the HR20 despite the fact that an overwhelming majority want DLB. It really doesn't matter, I just thought it was an interesting bit of information.


----------



## Doug Brott

btmoore said:


> I vote the reason for no DLB is because of a passive aggressive product marketing middle manager responsible for product features in the HR2X line who is frustrated by low pay and a superiority complex. Maybe it is that JB guy?










.. Yeah, that's it. :grin:


----------



## Capt'n

Doug Brott said:


> My comment was simply that 97% of the folks here have chosen to stick with the HR20 despite the fact that an overwhelming majority want DLB. It really doesn't matter, I just thought it was an interesting bit of information.


Of course people are going to choose to receive the actual channels over dlb. That bit of information really doesn't have any bite to it.


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, this is not what I said at all. In fact, I said that 62% really wanted it based solely on the information in this thread .. Really, the number is higher than that just reading the actual poll options, but 62% is already clearly a majority .. no need to look farther.
> 
> My comment was simply that 97% of the folks here have chosen to stick with the HR20 despite the fact that an overwhelming majority want DLB. It really doesn't matter, I just thought it was an interesting bit of information.


I see. I interpret those numbers to be misleading...even if that was not your intention.

I wouldn't expect DLB to be more improtant than HD locals let alone 100 channels,

Given the lack of choices, I don't think usage of DVR+ is a good referendum on any features it does or does not have.


----------



## JBernardK

btmoore said:


> I vote the reason for no DLB is because of a passive aggressive product marketing middle manager responsible for product features in the HR2X line who is frustrated by low pay and a superiority complex. Maybe it is that JB guy?


I suspect it was a higher level executive that decreed 18+ months ago that the D* DVR line would all have the same features/interface as the NDS units. The manager's below him/her, like all corporate managers that want to succeed in the beauracarcy, said "yes Sir" whether they agreed or not. (Think about how your company operates.)

So the architecture of the boxes was fixed which makes it somewaht difficult to implement DLB today even if someone wanted to buck the higher level manager.

Sofware projects can be difficult to fix if you start on the wrong foot. Witness Microsoft scrapping Vista in the middle of development and starting anew. The FBI spent years on a software system and then scrapped it because it go out of hand.


----------



## vankai

9 out of 10 people voting 'would use DLB'

3 out of 4 people voting 'want DLB'


----------



## cartrivision

raw121 said:


> Sharkie_Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly, I think the "average user" is more likely to use MediaShare than DLB.
> 
> 
> 
> As someone else has pointed out, everyone would use DLB whether they know they are or not. They may just not know what it is called or use its full power but they will use it.
Click to expand...

Exactly. To suggest that more people will use media sharing than DLB is preposterous. Beyond the techno-geeks that make up a good percentage of this forum community, very few people will have the desire and/or technical ability to even get their DVR properly connected to a home network, and of that small group that do successfully network their DVRs, most of them probably don't give a flying fig about media sharing.


----------



## anubys

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?
> 
> Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.


answering for Earl, he's stated on many occasion that he does know the reason and that he cannot share it with us. He has also refuted some theories as NOT the reason (not advertising dollars, is the most recent example) but has dropped nary a hint about the real reason...

all we can go by is that Earl thinks the reason is "reasonable" :grin:


----------



## cartrivision

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Whoever said that is smoking the good stuff.
> 
> It's just NOT true.
> 
> My in laws do NOT watch more than one program at a time. Ever. They watch 1 show, they watch it live. They do not skip commercials, they do not flip to other channels to see what's on.


.....and you think that people like your inlaws.... people who don't even use the recording/timeshifting capability of a DVR, are going to have that DVR hooked up to a home network with a computer configured correctly to serve the media on the computer to the DVR through the network????? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:


----------



## puffnstuff

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?
> 
> Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.


They have and he will not tell us no matter what  That is part of the reason that I chose to use Directv as my main carrier almost 2 years ago . First it was they are working on it , then it was never , then it was Earl knows but can't tell . Oh well  Wow Anubys your fast !


----------



## puffnstuff

Just wondering if we should have some sort of summary as to what was proven , not proven or whatever in the other thread ? Just wondering , because alot of the same things are still coming up and I can see them starting to get arguementive again instead of discussion .


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

cartrivision said:


> .....and you think that people like your inlaws.... people who don't even use the recording/timeshifting capability of a DVR, are going to have that DVR hooked up to a home network with a computer configured correctly to serve the media on the computer to the DVR through the network????? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:


I don't understand why you think it's so hard to set up Media Share.

Take 2 minutes. Plug in network cable and go through networking setup. Turn on your computer. Open Windows Medial Player, and turn on media sharing. Go back to the TV and view your pictures on the TV.

Even my in laws can figure out how to plug in a network cable and turn on the computer.

So, yes, I do think that "the masses" can figure out how to do media share. Even the ones who don't know about DLB and/or those who choose not to use the features of DLB.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?
> 
> Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.


Yes, and Yes.


----------



## cartrivision

anubys said:


> answering for Earl, he's stated on many occasion that he does know the reason and that he cannot share it with us. He has also refuted some theories as NOT the reason (not advertising dollars, is the most recent example) but has dropped nary a hint about the real reason...
> 
> all we can go by is that Earl thinks the reason is "reasonable" :grin:


If it was "reasonable", we would know what it is and there wouldn't be the current laughable pretense that the reason is some kind of state secret. The fact that nobody has given any reasonable explanation as to why there is no DLB on DirecTV DVRs, pretty much speaks for itself.

The only really reasonable explanation would be that there was some issue like patent rights, and there would be no reason to not disclose that if that was the case, unless it's DirecTVs intention to mislead it's customers and imply that maybe DBL will be added while knowing that it never will.


----------



## puffnstuff

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't understand why you think it's so hard to set up Media Share.
> 
> Take 2 minutes. Plug in network cable and go through networking setup. Turn on your computer. Open Windows Medial Player, and turn on media sharing. Go back to the TV and view your pictures on the TV.
> 
> Even my in laws can figure out how to plug in a network cable and turn on the computer.
> 
> So, yes, I do think that "the masses" can figure out how to do media share. Even the ones who don't know about DLB and/or those who choose not to use the features of DLB.


All fine and good until you don't have a network cable available . I guess I'm just mad I can't get the linksys adapter to work . My 2 cents though , is that I know 8 different families with at least 2 HR's that have no desire for mediashare , even after I offer to set it up , but they all did come from tivo and every one of them called me withn a few days wondering how to switch tuners . The reason I believe is that they all already had soultions for mediashare .


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> If it was "reasonable", we would know what it is and there wouldn't be the current laughable pretense that the reason is some kind of state secret. The fact that nobody has given any reasonable explanation as to why there is no DLB on DirecTV DVRs, pretty much speaks for itself.


Actually it is fairly reasonsable (IMHO), but still I can not tell you why.



cartrivision said:


> The only really reasonable explanation would be that there was some issue like patent rights, and there would be no reason to not disclose that if that was the case, unless it's DirecTVs intention to mislead it's customers and imply that maybe DBL will be added while knowing that it never will.


In your opinion of what is reasonable, there may only be one... however each individual has their own opinion on what is reasonable.

There is no patent issue.
And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
They have also NOT stated that it will never be there.

Anyone that makes an assumption that it "will be there" is doing so of their own accord.


----------



## puffnstuff

cartrivision said:


> If it was "reasonable", we would know what it is and there wouldn't be the current laughable pretense that the reason is some kind of state secret. The fact that nobody has given any reasonable explanation as to why there is no DLB on DirecTV DVRs, pretty much speaks for itself.
> 
> The only really reasonable explanation would be that there was some issue like patent rights, and there would be no reason to not disclose that if that was the case, unless it's DirecTVs intention to mislead it's customers and imply that maybe DBL will be added while knowing that it never will.


Nope I don't think it is a patent . IIRC it was discussed at length in the first thread . I think at one pointEarl said , that somebody was close to the answer or on the right track , but nothing more .


----------



## Earl Bonovich

puffnstuff said:


> All fine and good until you don't have a network cable available . I guess I'm just mad I can't get the linksys adapter to work . My 2 cents though , is that I know 8 different families with at least 2 HR's that have no desire for mediashare , even after I offer to set it up , but they all did come from tivo and every one of them called me withn a few days wondering how to switch tuners . The reason I believe is that they all already had soultions for mediashare .


You then also have the phone adapter that they are releasing, which also will be pretty straight forward for customers to install.

We all know someone that will use MediaShare... that won't use MediaShare... that will use DoD... that won't use DoD... that will use OTA... that won't use OTA... that will use DLB... that won't use DLB

So until there is a 3rd party research project done, by a firm that knows how to do demographic/user base research to find the "value" of different things.... there is no basis to any claim on the "value" of a feature.


----------



## ceored

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I pointed out many many times before...
> 
> What's the difference (from an advertising argument) between recording two shows... and watching two shows live, even with DLB...
> 
> It is almost a guarantee it is easier to "skip" the advertisements on a recorded content... with any type of DLB or SLB implementation you are going to see more.
> 
> Plus it still doesn't get rid of the core issue of people just flipping the channel or walking away.
> 
> So again, it is ZERO to do with advertising $'s.


I don't think it's as easy as straight dollars, but as with most things money is the bottom line. Someone's market research has shown there is an advantage to limiting the DLB feature, whether D*, advertisers or content providers. I'm sure lots of people here don't watch any commercials as they may not watch live shows. I am 50-50 on recorded content vs live, and as a red-blooded lazy American I sit and watch the commercials when my show is caught up. If I had DLB I could watch 2 live shows and miss out on most of the commercials. It makes sense that a billion dollar ad firm would know that and understand the revenue stream attached with it, work with the largest satellite provider (possibly through content providers) to get at that money. Again think in-laws.


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually it is fairly reasonsable (IMHO), but still I can not tell you why.
> 
> In your opinion of what is reasonable, there may only be one... however each individual has their own opinion on what is reasonable.
> 
> There is no patent issue.
> And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have also stated that it will never be there.
> 
> Anyone that makes an assumption that it "will be there" is doing so of their own accord.


Well I assumed , since I got mine before I found this site and was told by CSR's and Best Buy that all of the features were the same . Then after I find this site I get kinda strung along being told they are working on implementing it , then that you know why and that it will become apparent , that was almost 18 months ago and I still don't see why . But you know what Directv makes the best kool-aid in the world


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> If it where just that simple to "give you" DLB... they probably would...
> But this is reality, and it isn't "that simple"
> 
> And they are not "steadfastly" ignoring DLB...
> The fact remains, they decided way back when... DLB was not included.
> 
> And they have their reasons.
> 
> But as of right now, DLB has not been 100% taken off the table for future development. But as of right now, there is no update to give to any of you, other then what has already been said for the last 18 months.
> 
> Since nothing has changed... what else is to be said from DirecTV?


A reasonable explanation as to why the feature hasn't been added. Of course, if that reason is bad design decisions made by the people overseeing the DVR development effort, then the silence is understandable.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

puffnstuff said:


> Well I assumed , since I got mine before I found this site and was told by CSR's and Best Buy that all of the features were the same . Then after I find this site I get kinda strung along being told they are working on implementing it , then that you know why and that it will become apparent , that was almost 18 months ago and I still don't see why . But you know what Directv makes the best kool-aid in the world


As for the Best Buy Reps... they also say you need an "HDTV" antenna.

18 months ago... comparing it to a TiVo... that was nothing but bad information given out at a time, where the CSRs did not have all the correct facts about the HR20.

That should not be the case today.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

cartrivision said:


> A reasonable explanation as to why the feature hasn't been added. Of course, if that reason is bad design decisions made by the people overseeing the DVR development effort, then the silence is understandable.


I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread, by several different people.

Why does DirecTV owe us an explanation as to why they've decided to include some features and exclude others? I don't understand the idea that DirecTV (or any company, for that matter), somehow owes us an explanation as to how they decide to operate.


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> You then also have the phone adapter that they are releasing, which also will be pretty straight forward for customers to install.
> 
> We all know someone that will use MediaShare... that won't use MediaShare... that will use DoD... that won't use DoD... that will use OTA... that won't use OTA... that will use DLB... that won't use DLB
> 
> So until there is a 3rd party research project done, by a firm that knows how to do demographic/user base research to find the "value" of different things.... there is no basis to any claim on the "value" of a feature.


Not argueing with value , hell anything is valuble to someone and I do use it and VOD and will use MRV to and I know the phone adapter probably will work great , I guess I"m just waitng for somebody to do a first look . It just confounds me that DLB wasn't deemed to important


----------



## Capt'n

Earl Bonovich said:


> And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have also stated that it will never be there.


It is somewhat misleading. They advertise dual tuners which is half true. It's more like 1.5 tuners. The machine has access to two tuners, but the user only has access to one tuner.

If they have stated it will never be there, why are we even discussing this?


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> As for the Best Buy Reps... they also say you need an "HDTV" antenna.
> 
> 18 months ago... comparing it to a TiVo... that was nothing but bad information given out at a time, where the CSRs did not have all the correct facts about the HR20.
> 
> That should not be the case today.


I know it just sucks that I really , really want to know why it was changed from beng implemented , to almost off the table in such a short period of time . Oh , well theirs always next decade .


----------



## puffnstuff

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread, by several different people.
> 
> Why does DirecTV owe us an explanation as to why they've decided to include some features and exclude others? I don't understand the idea that DirecTV (or any company, for that matter), somehow owes us an explanation as to how they decide to operate.


As I have said before I was told more than once before I bought it that DLB was there by CSR's , Now I know that they aren't always right . Also after buying it I was told on here , they were working on it , which in turn made me chose to use Directv as my main provider and get more recievers from them when I could have just as easily used Comcast which does have DLB . I have been very patient and feel as though I am owed an answer . Or at least a timeframe when it will become apparent as to why it wasn't included .


----------



## cartrivision

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't understand why you think it's so hard to set up Media Share.
> 
> Take 2 minutes. Plug in network cable and go through networking setup. Turn on your computer. Open Windows Medial Player, and turn on media sharing. Go back to the TV and view your pictures on the TV.
> 
> Even my in laws can figure out how to plug in a network cable and turn on the computer.
> 
> So, yes, I do think that "the masses" can figure out how to do media share. Even the ones who don't know about DLB and/or those who choose not to use the features of DLB.


The lack of reality in your scenarios in support of your theory about how the great masses will be using media sharing in mind numbing.

The number of people whose setup geography will allow them to just run a cat 5 cable between their DVR and computer is extremely limited, and for the few where that is possible, people like your in laws (who don't even routinely make use the recording capability of their DVR) wouldn't ever set up and use media sharing, even if someone knocked on their door, gave them a free cat 5 cable, plugged it in for them, and told them that all they had to do themselves is the setup on the HR20 and their computer.


----------



## cartrivision

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually it is fairly reasonsable (IMHO), but still I can not tell you why.
> 
> In your opinion of what is reasonable, there may only be one... however each individual has their own opinion on what is reasonable.
> 
> There is no patent issue.
> And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have also stated that it will never be there.


Source please on that last statement.

The lack of a credible source for such a statement would be the reason for saying that their intentions are to mislead their customers. If they string customers along with the hope that the feature might someday be added instead of being truthful about why it never will, that's called "lying by omission".


----------



## JBernardK

Earl Bonovich said:


> But as of right now, DLB has not been 100% taken off the table for future development.





Earl Bonovich said:


> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have also stated that it will never be there.


Don't these two statements contradict each other somewhat?


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually it is fairly reasonsable (IMHO), but still I can not tell you why.
> 
> In your opinion of what is reasonable, there may only be one... however each individual has their own opinion on what is reasonable.
> 
> There is no patent issue.
> And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have also stated that it will never be there.
> 
> Anyone that makes an assumption that it "will be there" is doing so of their own accord.


Is it back to never again now ?


----------



## Doug Brott

Capt'n;1440663 said:


> It is somewhat misleading. They advertise dual tuners which is half true. It's more like 1.5 tuners. The machine has access to two tuners, but the user only has access to one tuner.
> 
> If they have stated it will never be there, why are we even discussing this?


Nope, my machine can record 2 things at one time .. that's what dual tuners are. I certainly don't get one full program and half-a-screen on the other. DLB may be missing, but dual tuners is not missing.


----------



## General Custer

Earl, Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Why can't you tell us? Will you lose you insider status? Do you represent Directv or the users of DBStalk.com?


----------



## Doug Brott

cartrivision said:


> Source please on that last statement.
> 
> The lack of a credible source for such a statement would be the reason for saying that their intentions are to mislead their customers. If they string customers along with the hope that the feature might someday be added instead of being truthful about why it never will, that's called "lying by omission".


Hmmm .. I believe Earl's "source" is the person(s) that gave him the reasonable reason as to why DLB is not on the DVR+ series. you're making a huge leap from "Earl cannot tell" to "DIRECTV is intentionally misleading people."

If it's any consolation, I do not know why DLB has not been implemented either. So I have no more information than you.


----------



## cartrivision

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread, by several different people.
> 
> Why does DirecTV owe us an explanation as to why they've decided to include some features and exclude others? I don't understand the idea that DirecTV (or any company, for that matter), somehow owes us an explanation as to how they decide to operate.


They don't owe us anything, but why would they not do so if such an explanation were "reasonable"? What's better? Having a large number of customers upset because they see updates to the feature list while ignoring requests for the DLB feature, or simple providing the "reasonable" explanation of why it hasn't (or won't) be added?

Since the reason supposedly isn't a patent issue, I'd guess that it has more to do with incompetent decisions made by the people managing the DVR design effort at DirecTV, hence the big secret ("but trust us.... completely reasonable") reason that there is no DLB.


----------



## ToddinVA

I'm sure I'm grasping at straws here, but did anyone from DirecTV by chance ask for a new DLB poll?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

General Custer said:


> Earl, Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Why can't you tell us? Will you lose you insider status? Do you represent Directv or the users of DBStalk.com?


NDA or not... if a person with knowledge of the situation told him something and it was to be between "you, me, and the wall"....

If that gets out, do you think he'll ever get another peek behind the curtain? Or another look at the latest and greatest thing coming out?

And, by extension, the users of DBStalk wouldn't get those nuggets of information or those first looks, or, as many here have had - the opportunity to field test the latest and greatest gadgets.


----------



## Doug Brott

ToddinVA said:


> I'm sure I'm grasping at straws here, but did anyone from DirecTV by chance ask for a new DLB poll?


No, this was a moderator decision.


----------



## General Custer

Sharkie_Fan said:


> NDA or not... if a person with knowledge of the situation told him something and it was to be between "you, me, and the wall"....
> 
> If that gets out, do you think he'll ever get another peek behind the curtain? Or another look at the latest and greatest thing coming out?
> 
> And, by extension, the users of DBStalk wouldn't get those nuggets of information or those first looks, or, as many here have had - the opportunity to field test the latest and greatest gadgets.


What has that really gotten us? A first look at hardware a few months ahead of time? The chance to do Directv's beta testing on the HR series for free and work out the bugs they should have done months ago?


----------



## Capt'n

Doug Brott said:


> Nope, my machine can record 2 things at one time .. that's what dual tuners are. I certainly don't get one full program and half-a-screen on the other. DLB may be missing, but dual tuners is not missing.


How do you know what you get on the other tuner? You can't see it unless you ask the receiver to record something.


----------



## cartrivision

General Custer said:


> Earl, Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Why can't you tell us? Will you lose you insider status? Do you represent Directv or the users of DBStalk.com?


The question isn't why Earl can't tell us, it's why DirecTV doesn't tell us.

The answer is that the explanation very likely wouldn't seem to be as "reasonable" to the masses as it does to Earl.


----------



## cartrivision

Doug Brott said:


> No, this was a moderator decision.


Why would a moderator decision be made to start a poll about a feature that another moderator claims (with authority) will never be implemented?

I thought that s#it stirring was my job here


----------



## Doug Brott

Capt'n;1440817 said:


> How do you know what you get on the other tuner? You can't see it unless you ask the receiver to record something.


yup which is why I used the word record


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV has told us, I've passed that on to us. If you are looking for a press statement from Robert Mercer you will not get one.

Earl has said all that he is allowed to say many, many times and in many ways.

If you don't believe what Earl and I have said, we can't help you, I'm sorry to say.

This is not a "major conspiracy" consisting of Earl, DIRECTV, and myself. I think I've made it clear I want DLB, it ain't there. I've talked to a lot of really great people at DIRECTV at the last two CES. They listen, we talk, it ain't there. (And I still think they are great.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

cartrivision said:


> Why would a moderator decision be made to start a poll about a feature that another moderator claims (with authority) will never be implemented?
> 
> I thought that s#it stirring was my job here


Let's leave it at the fact that it was a moderator decision ..


----------



## puffnstuff

Ok let me get this right . 2 differrent but similar polls . So far pretty much the same results on said polls . Lack of DLB is not because of a patent , advertiser or lack of want . DLB is possible (?) on the HR . It is because of a future feature that we don't have DLB . Earl may know what this feature is . As of now DLB is not expected on the HR series . Directv knows we want DLB . Just want to make sure because my wife is on vacation and loves to read this thread and was disappointed the other was closed but wanted an update ( curious about the poll actually ) tonight .


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV has told us, I've passed that on to us. If you are looking for a press statement from Robert Mercer you will not get one.
> 
> Earl has said all that he is allowed to say many, many times and in many ways.
> 
> If you don't believe what Earl and I have said, we can't help you, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> This is not a "major conspiracy" consisting of Earl, DIRECTV, and myself. I think I've made it clear I want DLB, it ain't there. I've talked to a lot of really great people at DIRECTV at the last two CES. They listen, we talk, it ain't there. (And I still think they are great.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


The problem is... do I believe Earl when he says that it's not completely off the table as a future addition or do I believe him when he says that DirecTV has stated that it will never be added..... that and the fact that me and a lot of other people very likely wouldn't consider DirecTVs explanation to be as "reasonable" as Earl does&#8230;. which probably explains all the secrecy. Or maybe they will only tell the people who aren't on double secret probation.


----------



## btmoore

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV has told us, I've passed that on to us. If you are looking for a press statement from Robert Mercer you will not get one.
> 
> Earl has said all that he is allowed to say many, many times and in many ways.
> 
> If you don't believe what Earl and I have said, we can't help you, I'm sorry to say.
> 
> This is not a "major conspiracy" consisting of Earl, DIRECTV, and myself. I think I've made it clear I want DLB, it ain't there. I've talked to a lot of really great people at DIRECTV at the last two CES. They listen, we talk, it ain't there. (And I still think they are great.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Appreciate what your saying, and perhaps it is the tin foil hat ex Midwestern conspiracy nut inside of me, but it all just comes off very disingenuous from D*. What I mean by that is, and perhaps I would do the same thing if I were them, it feels like dbsform is being used by D* as a unofficial ministry of information to pass propaganda to the proletariat. They tell you and Earl, etc. "secrets" and then issue dictates to you all on what secrets you can tell and which you can not. It even appears that in the situation with DLB at least Earl has been told the secrete reason and been given the ok to tell us that he has been told but he cant tell the secret, but it is ok for him to say it is a reasonable reason, and that they listen to us and it is under consideration, but there no saying when or if, blah blah blah. Which almost by proxy makes him an unpaid D* spokes person. So now what sticks in my craw (and I want to be clear this is not frustration with you or Earl, etc, hell I want to know the big secret too, even if I couldn't tell anyone) is that feels very manipulative by D*, with a big ass stringing along process that I think just keeps people (me) stirred up. I wish they would just stop jerking around and either commit, or get off the pot and tell us if we are just wasting our time telling D* that this is important to their customers and they are going to at least take a stab at it, or should we all just go home and pound sand, but this manipulative super secrete we know but won't tell but we will tell other people and tell them it is ok to tell you they know but you cant know crap is for the birds.


----------



## puffnstuff

WOW !!! I knew this was going to happen . I think the new poll poked a sleeping bear . While not as strong I kinda feel the same . I just hope the reason is worth it .


----------



## General Custer

Like its been said already, If it was actually a reasonable explanation, Directv would have allowed their insiders to leak it. The fact they haven't speaks volumes to the fact that they assume most average users would not approve of sacrificing DLB for this yet named feature. Or the super secret feature is so awesome that everyone will forget about DLB when its released.


----------



## Capt'n

General Custer said:


> Like its been said already, If it was actually a reasonable explanation, Directv would have allowed their insiders to leak it. The fact they haven't speaks volumes to the fact that they assume most average users would not approve of sacrificing DLB for this yet named feature. Or the super secret feature is so awesome that everyone will forget about DLB when its released.


Unless it's some type of replacement for DLB, I doubt people will forget. I do hope your right thought.


----------



## puffnstuff

General Custer said:


> Like its been said already, If it was actually a reasonable explanation, Directv would have allowed their insiders to leak it. The fact they haven't speaks volumes to the fact that they assume most average users would not approve of sacrificing DLB for this yet named feature. Or the super secret feature is so awesome that everyone will forget about DLB when its released.


I must be pretty lame , because after MRV I can't think of anything else that the HR could even do . Can anybody smarter than me figure out something ? After all I am just a guy in a costume .


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> I must be pretty lame , because after MRV I can't think of anything else that the HR could even do . Can anybody smarter than me figure out something ? After all I am just a guy in a costume .


well, it could act as if it were a slingbox so you could watch your shows remotely .. but alas, I don't see that happening either.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> well, it could act as if it were a slingbox so you could watch your shows remotely .. but alas, I don't see that happening either.


Directv to go ? DRM ? Vaporware ?  Plus already have 2 .


----------



## Rocker07

puffnstuff said:


> I must be pretty lame , because after MRV I can't think of anything else that the HR could even do . Can anybody smarter than me figure out something ? After all I am just a guy in a costume .


I hear they are going to make it toast bread


----------



## Sixto

puffnstuff said:


> I must be pretty lame , because after MRV I can't think of anything else that the HR could even do . Can anybody smarter than me figure out something ? After all I am just a guy in a costume .


Agree ... and MRV is most important (for me). Lately, so hoping for MRV quickly since now have HD sets throughout the house. Still want DLB, but MRV is at the top of the list.

From reading all of the DLB threads over many months, I just assumed that the lack of DLB had to do with the debate that the foreground tuner is not actually watching anything from the buffer. The foreground tuner was actually true "live" TV. And somehow that implementation was related to the problem.


----------



## Doug Brott

It is true that when watching Live, you are not actually in the buffer, but watching the live data stream from DIRECTV. Perhaps you are on to something there, but I doubt that aspect plays a significant role in the reason.


----------



## puffnstuff

Rocker07 said:


> I hear they are going to make it toast bread


I swear my first reply was TOAST TOAST TOAST !!! Also is it possible for Directv to push DOD on the background tuner ?


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> It is true that when watching Live, you are not actually in the buffer, but watching the live data stream from DIRECTV. Perhaps you are on to something there, but I doubt that aspect plays a significant role in the reason.


I figured that if the foreground screen wasn't actually the buffer, then the foreground screen was the 1st tuner, and the foreground buffer (in case of trickplay) was elsewhere (the 2nd tuner), and that's why the background tuner wasn't actually buffering anything because there's no 3rd tuner. Just guessing here, but it was verified that the foreground screen was not the buffer, which seemed like it must be related to why no DLB.

But it can buffer both and switch if you're recording both so seemed like it was actually possible.


----------



## General Custer

So the foreground tuner has nothing to do with the buffer? The second tuner is then also tuner to the same channel and recording that data stream to the buffer? What happens when you are recording another show the live stream and the buffer stream become one and the same? Why have it work 2 different ways?


----------



## Sixto

General Custer said:


> So the foreground tuner has nothing to do with the buffer? The second tuner is then also tuner to the same channel and recording that data stream to the buffer? What happens when you are recording another show the live stream and the buffer stream become one and the same? Why have it work 2 different ways?


I agree. That always was a wonder. Unless somehow the buffering is after (some background task - post display to screen).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

General Custer said:


> Earl, Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Why can't you tell us? Will you lose you insider status? Do you represent Directv or the users of DBStalk.com?


Have I signed an NDA... No.
Do I have a legal binding NDA with DirecTV... No.

But I have respect for the people that I have worked with for a long time now.

Why can't I tell you... because I was told not to. It's that simple.
And that goes for a LOT of other things that I know about that I also can't share.

And actually... Yes, I will lose something that I have worked very hard to grow and maintain... which has allowed me to share a LOT with all of you. And something I am not willing to just throw out the window for something like this.

As for who I represent.... I only represent myself.
There are times that I am allowed to present information that DirecTV has given me to share...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> The problem is... do I believe Earl when he says that it's not completely off the table as a future addition or do I believe him when he says that DirecTV has stated that it will never be added..... that and the fact that me and a lot of other people very likely wouldn't consider DirecTVs explanation to be as "reasonable" as Earl does&#8230;. which probably explains all the secrecy. Or maybe they will only tell the people who aren't on double secret probation.


Where have I stated that DirecTV has stated it will never be added?
Point me to the link where I have made that statement.


----------



## boltjames

puffnstuff said:


> WOW !!! I knew this was going to happen . I think the new poll poked a sleeping bear. While not as strong I kinda feel the same . I just hope the reason is worth it .


No, this new poll _stroked _a bear that _refuses _to sleep.

It's over. There is no DLB. It's not happening. We need to move on now. President Kennedy is dead. He's not coming back. While it's fun in a morbid sort of way to watch the same theories repeated on Discovery HD every November, if the goal is to bring him back to life that's not going to happen.

Sleep, bears. Sleep.

BJ


----------



## Earl Bonovich

cartrivision said:


> Why would a moderator decision be made to start a poll about a feature that another moderator claims (with authority) will never be implemented?
> 
> I thought that s#it stirring was my job here


Again... I ask you... 
Point me to the link of where I have stated, that it will NEVER be implemented? That DirecTV has told me to tell you that it will not be implemented.

Please point me to that.

As for why it is a moderator's decision to start a new poll.
Last time I checked... it is part of the Moderator's job here, to foster discussion in a construcive manner.

The last DLB poll started 18 months ago... and the atmosphere has changed significantly in that 18 months.

The options at the time where limited to just three, that did not accurately reflect the wider range of feelings on the topic.

So yes... the decision was made by the staff of the DirecTV forums here at DBSTalk, to restart the poll in an attempt to have a constructive discussion on the topic again.

But in basically "no time", it has picked back up where it left off.


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> Again... I ask you...
> Point me to the link of where I have stated, that it will NEVER be implemented? That DirecTV has told me to tell you that it will not be implemented.
> 
> Please point me to that.
> 
> As for why it is a moderator's decision to start a new poll.
> Last time I checked... it is part of the Moderator's job here, to foster discussion in a construcive manner.
> 
> The last DLB poll started 18 months ago... and the atmosphere has changed significantly in that 18 months.
> 
> The options at the time where limited to just three, that did not accurately reflect the wider range of feelings on the topic.
> 
> So yes... the decision was made by the staff of the DirecTV forums here at DBSTalk, to restart the poll in an attempt to have a constructive discussion on the topic again.
> 
> But in basically "no time", it has picked back up where it left off.


Post 297 near the bottom . As for "no time" your right and that sucks . Sorry re read post sure it was a typo .


----------



## Sixto

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have I signed an NDA... No.
> Do I have a legal binding NDA with DirecTV... No.
> 
> But I have respect for the people that I have worked with for a long time now.
> 
> Why can't I tell you... because I was told not to. It's that simple.
> And that goes for a LOT of other things that I know about that I also can't share.
> 
> And actually... Yes, I will lose something that I have worked very hard to grow and maintain... which has allowed me to share a LOT with all of you. And something I am not willing to just throw out the window for something like this.
> 
> As for who I represent.... I only represent myself.
> There are times that I am allowed to present information that DirecTV has given me to share...


All makes perfect sense. Very reasonable.

Seems like there's always a part of the population that will throw anyone under the bus to satisfy some curious desire to know everything.

Geez, the TiVo interface (Pony) used to post once in blue moon.

Here, Earl posts regularly all kinds of good, cool stuff.

It's a good vehicle for DirecTV. They can unofficially let stuff out without liability.

Helps them, and builds a great group here.

But then there's always the group that is not satisfied.

Join the real world, where you don't always get what you want, when you want it.

Here at DBSTalk, we get much more, MUCH more then anybody else.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

btmoore said:


> Appreciate what your saying, and perhaps it is the tin foil hat ex Midwestern conspiracy nut inside of me, but it all just comes off very disingenuous from D*. What I mean by that is, and perhaps I would do the same thing if I were them, it feels like dbsform is being used by D* as a unofficial ministry of information to pass propaganda to the proletariat. They tell you and Earl, etc. "secrets" and then issue dictates to you all on what secrets you can tell and which you can not. It even appears that in the situation with DLB at least Earl has been told the secrete reason and been given the ok to tell us that he has been told but he cant tell the secret, but it is ok for him to say it is a reasonable reason, and that they listen to us and it is under consideration, but there no saying when or if, blah blah blah. Which almost by proxy makes him an unpaid D* spokes person. So now what sticks in my craw (and I want to be clear this is not frustration with you or Earl, etc, hell I want to know the big secret too, even if I couldn't tell anyone) is that feels very manipulative by D*, with a big ass stringing along process that I think just keeps people (me) stirred up. I wish they would just stop jerking around and either commit, or get off the pot and tell us if we are just wasting our time telling D* that this is important to their customers and they are going to at least take a stab at it, or should we all just go home and pound sand, but this manipulative super secrete we know but won't tell but we will tell other people and tell them it is ok to tell you they know but you cant know crap is for the birds.


Actually... they haven't given me the okay to say it is reasonable or not.

That is me saying that... Earl. Not DirecTV.

Where I have screwed up in the conversation... was to admit that there is a solid reason... in my attempts to stop the ridiculous theories on why there is not DLB.

Actually... at this point.

I thin it is best that we end the DLB discussions all together..
As there is no change... there is no definitive timeline on when it is going to change.

And we should just allow the DLB thread to be a rant and a rumor fest.
Which frankly.. is something we are not going to let happen.. That is not the type of topics that we want here at DBSTalk.

Why people keep getting stired up... I just can't understand it.
I can understand why some people just getting the systems would be disappointed... but to constantly getting "re-stired up".....

DLB wasn't on the R15 in November of 2005
DLB wasn't on the HR20 in August 2006
It sitll isn't on any of the systems today.

DLB was never advertised as a feature on this DVR platform.
Many people made the assumptions that it would be... but DirecTV NEVER listed it as a feature of this platform, nor did they ever advertise it for this platform.

Yes, some people got bad information from retailers and even from CSRs... and that is unfourtent. But at the end of the day... DLB is not there today, it isn't going to be there tomorrow...

Maybe someday, as again... As I have stated in probably 1/3rd of my posts on this topic... It is not a feature that is "off the table".

Until there is a change in the DLB status.. This is my last post on the DLB topic.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

This Quote is from post #297



Earl Bonovich said:


> In your opinion of what is reasonable, there may only be one... however each individual has their own opinion on what is reasonable.
> 
> There is no patent issue.
> And since DirecTV does not market the system with DLB... what is misleading?
> DLB is not there... DirecTV has never stated it will be there...
> They have NOT stated that it will never be there.
> 
> Anyone that makes an assumption that it "will be there" is doing so of their own accord.


You are correct... that is a typo on my part.

Thank you for point it out.

I have added the NOT in red, to the correct statement.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Everyone is a whole lotta people. :eek2:
> 
> And I know of people who were hooked up in single tuner mode, so they never used it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Then they don't *have *DLB. Everyone who has it has used it.


----------



## Lord Vader

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Again, we can agree to disagree on whether EVERYBODY uses it. And how do you use DLB without KNOWING it? If you accidentally change the channel and then change back, DLB only does you any good if you rewind. If you don't know the feature is there, and you do not rewind to see what you missed, then you haven't USED the feature.


Simple. I'll give you a real life example, which happened to me the first time I noticed this "DLB."

Say I have channel 362 on. On my other tuner I've got 206 on it. Example 1: I either manually enter 206 or more than likely press "previous channel" to get back to 362 (note that I didn't use the down arrow on my TIVO remote to get to the other tuner). Suddenly I notice the green playback bar still at its somewhat lengthy point. Hmmm...

Example 2: Same setup, but while on 206, I press 269 to watch something. Then I press 362 to go to TWC again. I then notice that the green playback bar is even a tad longer. Hmmm...

I put two and two together to eventually realize that the other tuner on which 362 is set has retained its buffer. I had no idea what really happened; I was clueless about this "feature's" name, but in the end, it was DLB, and like every other user who has two tuners connected, I have used DLB.

End of story.


----------



## puffnstuff

Earl Bonovich said:


> This Quote is from post #297
> 
> You are correct... that is a typo on my part.
> 
> Thank you for point it out.
> 
> I have added the NOT in red, to the correct statement.


Sorry I didn't mean it as a jab ( look at my grammer ) , I'm just real disappointed . It's just ,this has been the only thing since day 1 , that I have ever wanted on my HR . As for this thread I agree , Directv made a choice , it is what it is . Anymore talk on this is just going to go the same way as the old thread . So why not just have a sticky update type with no discussion ?


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is a big different between "using" DLB... and it just functioning in the background.
> 
> If you never toggle your live buffers on purpose... are you really "using" DLB?


One need NOT toggle to use DLB. Simply changing channels, even among 3 or more, can and does use DLB.

This just goes to prove my original assertion that everyone has used DLB. Folks, we here are thinking too technically, in a rather limited manner. We're mistakenly and incorrectly thinking that DLB is toggling from one tuner to the other. That's not a prerequisite. We're also mistakenly and incorrectly assuming the general populace thinks like we do; they don't. We ought to cease with the terminology and thinking present here but not in the typical user's living room.


----------



## SteveLaB

I added 2 HR20's at Christmas and I just received the results from the only poll that counts in my house - my wife wants her HR10 back!!! It's simple, she prefers HR10 DLB functionality with "black side pillars" for the way she uses the system over HD. And I have to agree with her because all the DLB work arounds require an initiating action which do not work if you are unexpectedly 5 minutes late getting home. At least with the HR10's, one of the tuners somewhere in the house is already set to the channel and presto - a 30 minute buffer that did not require advanced planning. She asked me to research other providers to get a box with DLB. D* converted a very satisfied and loyal customer to a frustrated and unhappy customer with one STUPID decision and continual failure to provide their upgrade HR20 with the features of their old HR10. And it's kind of like when I was growing up: when Mom's not happy, no one is happy! I would have hoped D* would not have to make me chose between Sunday Ticket and DLB, but with the ever increasing costs of Sunday Ticket plus the insulting cost of the HD add-on, the decision is coming and D* is making the decision much easier. 

And I find it ironic the number of people that passionately defend the lack of the DLB. I am glad that HR20 SLB and work arounds work for them. But the addition of the DLB would probably not drive them away from D*. I can't say the opposite is true for me.


----------



## Que

Well I wasn't going to post stats until about the month mark but, we have over 500 votes in just only seven (7) days. WOW!

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. * 42 8.33%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 89 17.66%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 53 10.52%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *306 60.71%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 14 2.78%*
Voters: 504.

349 6,446


----------



## Earl Bonovich

puffnstuff said:


> Sorry I didn't mean it as a jab ( look at my grammer ) , I'm just real disappointed . It's just ,this has been the only thing since day 1 , that I have ever wanted on my HR . As for this thread I agree , Directv made a choice , it is what it is . Anymore talk on this is just going to go the same way as the old thread . So why not just have a sticky update type with no discussion ?


I did not take it as jab, and was genuinely appriciative of you pointing out my typo.


----------



## Green23

Wow- the new poll is really taking off- 6 new pages in 1 day!!!

Looks like DLB is *the* topic on the forum- D* really needs to pay attention to this.


----------



## Lord Vader

Earl Bonovich said:


> Have I signed an NDA... No.
> Do I have a legal binding NDA with DirecTV... No.
> 
> But I have respect for the people that I have worked with for a long time now.
> 
> Why can't I tell you... because I was told not to. It's that simple.
> And that goes for a LOT of other things that I know about that I also can't share.
> 
> And actually... Yes, I will lose something that I have worked very hard to grow and maintain... which has allowed me to share a LOT with all of you. And something I am not willing to just throw out the window for something like this.
> 
> As for who I represent.... I only represent myself.
> There are times that I am allowed to present information that DirecTV has given me to share...


It's called TRUST, folks--a person's word.

And when everything else is cast aside, a man's word is the most important thing he has.

If someone asks me to keep something in confidence, to keep something confidential, my word to said person is inviolate.


----------



## Que

Indiana627 said:


> That's only because all the new MPEG4 HD trumps DLB. If the HR10 could get all the new HD channels, I'd still be using it.


I am very curious, how many people would still be using the HR2x if the HR10 could do MPEG4.

People keep bring up the argument that they are still get new subscribers everyday. So they must be doing something right. It's not because of there NEW DVR. If they want the NEW HD channels they have no choice. They have to use DirecTV DVR for the HD. If on there new DVR you had to give a blood sample every time you want to watch TV you have to do it. There was no choice. I know that is a little out there but you get the idea. I only wish they could do a mass-mail survey. Ask the user what they think of there new DVR and what they could do better. Now I'm not saying DVR+ line is a bad DVR, they are getting better.

The people that is with DirecTV thought that the upgrade HR2x would have the same option just because....HR10..HR20. It's in the same line but, come to find out it's not. So they just deal and hope that with most of the bugs that gets killed. They get the options they want and are use to in a DVR. With some time...maybe one day it will. So they voice there option on forums. They are happy with the HD and DirecTV it just could be 'better/easy" for them.

Instead of waiting for a mass-mailers you can always write them.

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


----------



## Green23

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?
> 
> Obviously if they have, you can't share them or you would... I understand that. Just curious if they've given you any kind of peek behind the curtain.





Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, and Yes.


Earl must enjoy watching us suffer and beat this into the ground.


----------



## Sixto

Que said:


> I am very curious, how many people would still be using the HR2x if the HR10 could do MPEG4.


Not me. I could never go back.

The HR2x has just made too many advances over the past year-and-a-half.

Picture-in-Guide so very useful.

HR10 was just so slow.

Single button record. Two press series link.

Probably can mention a dozen things.

And geez, would I want to go back to TiVo updates once every 6 months, with no frequent communication, and always back-level on features.

The DirecTV development group now has total control, we get continual updates, CE's every Friday night (which I love).

Just an overall nice relationship.

In this home, have not heard one single negative peep from the wife or kids in many, many months. They are perfectly satisfied with the HR2x.

Would never go back.


----------



## Que

SteveLaB said:


> I added 2 HR20's at Christmas and I just received the results from the only poll that counts in my house - my wife wants her HR10 back!!! It's simple, she prefers HR10 DLB functionality with "black side pillars" for the way she uses the system over HD. And I have to agree with her because all the DLB work arounds require an initiating action which do not work if you are unexpectedly 5 minutes late getting home. At least with the HR10's, one of the tuners somewhere in the house is already set to the channel and presto - a 30 minute buffer that did not require advanced planning. She asked me to research other providers to get a box with DLB. D* converted a very satisfied and loyal customer to a frustrated and unhappy customer with one STUPID decision and continual failure to provide their upgrade HR20 with the features of their old HR10. And it's kind of like when I was growing up: when Mom's not happy, no one is happy! I would have hoped D* would not have to make me chose between Sunday Ticket and DLB, but with the ever increasing costs of Sunday Ticket plus the insulting cost of the HD add-on, the decision is coming and D* is making the decision much easier.
> 
> And I find it ironic the number of people that passionately defend the lack of the DLB. I am glad that HR20 SLB and work arounds work for them. But the addition of the DLB would probably not drive them away from D*. I can't say the opposite is true for me.


:welcome_s to the forum SteveLaB!

My wife is same way. I can only hope in time DLB will come to the HR2x.


----------



## Que

Green23 said:


> Wow- the new poll is really taking off- 6 new pages in 1 day!!!
> 
> Looks like DLB is *the* topic on the forum- D* really needs to pay attention to this.


FYI: You can change how many post you see in users option>Edit Options>

http://www.dbstalk.com/usercp.php



> Number of Posts to Show Per Page
> Use this option to set the number of posts to show in a thread before splitting the display into multiple pages.
> Number of Posts to Show Per Page:


 I have my set to 40


----------



## pratttech

Lord Vader said:


> Simple. I'll give you a real life example, which happened to me the first time I noticed this "DLB."
> 
> Say I have channel 362 on. On my other tuner I've got 206 on it. Example 1: I either manually enter 206 or more than likely press "previous channel" to get back to 362 (note that I didn't use the down arrow on my TIVO remote to get to the other tuner). Suddenly I notice the green playback bar still at its somewhat lengthy point. Hmmm...
> 
> Example 2: Same setup, but while on 206, I press 269 to watch something. Then I press 362 to go to TWC again. I then notice that the green playback bar is even a tad longer. Hmmm...
> 
> I put two and two together to eventually realize that the other tuner on which 362 is set has retained its buffer. I had no idea what really happened; I was clueless about this "feature's" name, but in the end, it was DLB, and like every other user who has two tuners connected, I have used DLB.
> 
> End of story.


I got my first DVR today (HR21-200) and admit to still trying to figure it all out. Pausing live TV is very cool. Your comments piqued my interest because I had an issue earlier with what I think is an example of lack of DLB on my new receiver, but you seem to state you can do exactly what I was trying to do. What model do you have that has the functionality you describe? 

I was watching a buffered live TV show earlier today. At 6PM I paused and changed over to watch the local evening news, and when it was over I hit previous to get back to what I was watching originally and found no buffer for it anymore. I had nothing to rewind or unpause so I ended up missing a half-hour of my program because I was unaware of the work around in this thread then. Even that seems way more kludgey than your description.

Like you described I just figured with two lines attached it would buffer at least the last two two channels (preferably all of them in my previous channel list), but mine only seems to buffer only whatever the current channel is tuned to with absolutely no mercy. If I mistakenly hit the channel button because I'm not looking at the remote and feeling for the mini-guide; even if I quickly shift back before the screen even changes to the new choice it has already completely wiped out my buffer.


----------



## James Long

Stuart Sweet said:


> ... it's a good time to freshly ask the question of whether or not DLB's still need to be implemented in the strict "DirecTiVo" sense of the word.


If only the answers were fresh. Don't we have a closed threads with the same circular arguments?



> We hope to have a civil discussion that will, in the end, help our friends at DIRECTV know what we're thinking.


Good luck with that.


----------



## Lord Vader

pratttech said:


> I got my first DVR today (HR21-200) and admit to still trying to figure it all out. Pausing live TV is very cool. Your comments piqued my interest because I had an issue earlier with what I think is an example of lack of DLB on my new receiver, but you seem to state you can do exactly what I was trying to do. What model do you have that has the functionality you describe?
> 
> I was watching a buffered live TV show earlier today. At 6PM I paused and changed over to watch the local evening news, and when it was over I hit previous to get back to what I was watching originally and found no buffer for it anymore. I had nothing to rewind or unpause so I ended up missing a half-hour of my program because I was unaware of the work around in this thread then. Even that seems way more kludgey than your description.
> 
> Like you described I just figured with two lines attached it would buffer at least the last two two channels (preferably all of them in my previous channel list), but mine only seems to buffer only whatever the current channel is tuned to with absolutely no mercy. If I mistakenly hit the channel button because I'm not looking at the remote and feeling for the mini-guide; even if I quickly shift back before the screen even changes to the new choice it has already completely wiped out my buffer.


When we here mention DLB, we're referring to the DirecTV/TIVO receivers, specifically the HR10-250, which is the HD DirecTV/TIVO model most comparable to the HR20/21 series.


----------



## whaleboy

Since finding out about the need to either upgrade or lose HD a few months back I've been checking back here every few weeks and my heart sinks when I see that there is no word on DLB being implemented. While I never knew the term "DLB", I do know I currently have 2 buffered tuners I can swap between, and the way I watch TV, I use that functionality... _EVERY_ day.

Now that the day is closer where I may lose my current HD channels, I'm looking at the alternatives, and am seriously considering dumping Dtv. It sucks, because I'd like nothing better than to get all the new HD channels, but at the cost of a feature that I rely on every day? They might as well take away the ability to pause live TV. I'm sure there are plenty of people who never use that feature, and as a workaround you could hit record then pause, but to me having 2 viewable tuners is as basic a feature as live pause.

The clock is ticking, so _PLEASE_ Dtv... put this basic functionality back so I don't have to look elsewhere for it.

-David


----------



## lman

Green23 said:


> Wow- the new poll is really taking off- 6 new pages in 1 day!!!
> 
> Looks like DLB is *the* topic on the forum- D* really needs to pay attention to this.


It was a hot topic 1 1/2 years ago too. DTV didn't listen then and they're not going to listen now. If they're not going to benefit financially, they could care less what everybody wants.


----------



## erosroadie

lman said:


> It was a hot topic 1 1/2 years ago too. DTV didn't listen then and they're not going to listen now. If they're not going to benefit financially, they could care less what everybody wants.


Do the DISH HD DVRs have DLB? If so, does DISH try to pull DIRECTV customers away with this feature/benefit?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

lman said:


> It was a hot topic 1 1/2 years ago too. DTV didn't listen then and they're not going to listen now. If they're not going to benefit financially, they could care less what everybody wants.


Not sure that makes sense.

IMHO...

There are so many people who were/are complaining about it.

There are so many other HD-DVRs have it.

That, plus with all the other issues the HR20 had in the beginning it _would_ have benefited Directv financially to include *DLB*.

This makes me believe there is some impact on current/future functionality. I just can't see any reason other than that not to include it.

I can see Directv not telling us the reasons because it would give away future plans. Businesses don't like to let the compition know what's comming. I don't know if this has anything to do with the silence...but hey, it's a theory. :grin:

Mike


----------



## ToddinVA

Lord Vader said:


> When we here mention DLB, we're referring to the DirecTV/TIVO receivers, specifically the HR10-250, which is the HD DirecTV/TIVO model most comparable to the HR20/21 series.


Since when are we referring to just the old TiVo boxes when it comes to DLB? As we all know, DLB is a standard feature on almost all other dual-tuner DVRs out there. I just wish DirecTV realized that...


----------



## Drew2k

lman said:


> It was a hot topic 1 1/2 years ago too. DTV didn't listen then and they're not going to listen now. If they're not going to benefit financially, they could care less what everybody wants.


That is absolutely not true. They are listening, and they are delivering, and they delivered on a request that absolutely had no financial gain for them. Take a look at the following thread for example: *Forget DLB - Shouldn't pausing the SLB during playback come first?*

Four months ago, the "DLB Workaround" wasn't even a possibility because you couldn't pause the live buffer, watch something from the playlist, and return to the live buffer at the same point you left. Now you can. DIRECTV listened, DIRECTV delivered, and what was their gain? Happy users.

They fixed the pause position on the single live buffer and folks had gone two years (back to the R15) without that ability. That means there IS hope for additional enhancements, maybe even DLB.


----------



## anubys

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I've seen this mentioned several times in this thread, by several different people.
> 
> Why does DirecTV owe us an explanation as to why they've decided to include some features and exclude others? I don't understand the idea that DirecTV (or any company, for that matter), somehow owes us an explanation as to how they decide to operate.


it's easy to explain, actually...I am a very high paying customer, they derive a lot of income from me (and others here), I have been a customer for over 10 years...I am not completely satisfied with their product and I have asked them why they have removed a feature that I want from their latest line of products.

of course they owe me an explanation. Why do you think I swore I'd never again give one red cent to my cable company? I even subscribe to DSL -- slower -- instead of a cable modem just because I will not do business with a company that treats me badly.

what _I_ fail to understand is why _you_ don't understand that


----------



## MountainMan10

One reason they may have gotten rid of DLB is the amount of disk space it takes. A 320 GB drive with HD is only marginally larger than the TIVO from 10 years ago that held 30 hours. 

For some reason they decided to make the live buffer larger and go with one. What would be cool would be options for 1 or 2 live buffers, and a choice of sizes, 15 min, 30min, 60min, 90min. With the standard HD I would choose 1 buffer for 30 min, but with a 1TB I might choose 2 at 90 min.


----------



## puffnstuff

MountainMan10 said:


> One reason they may have gotten rid of DLB is the amount of disk space it takes. A 320 GB drive with HD is only marginally larger than the TIVO from 10 years ago that held 30 hours.
> 
> For some reason they decided to make the live buffer larger and go with one. What would be cool would be options for 1 or 2 live buffers, and a choice of sizes, 15 min, 30min, 60min, 90min. With the standard HD I would choose 1 buffer for 30 min, but with a 1TB I might choose 2 at 90 min.


Been discussed before drive size makes no difference .


----------



## Indiana627

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just out of curiousity, Earl... Have they given you any reasons as to why they aren't implementing this feature?





Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes.


If only they would share their reasoning, this issue may be able to be put to bed. Obviously they know of the desire for DLB, but why they are so unresponsive on it when they have been so responsive on other issues just makes me scratch my head.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> This Quote is from post #297
> 
> You are correct... that is a typo on my part.
> 
> Thank you for point it out.
> 
> I have added the NOT in red, to the correct statement.


Unfortunately, as Earl is sometimes cryptic with clues. I think many people think he is being coy with this statement

*Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..*

Maybe DTV will change their mind and implement DLB in future, Earl can't definitively say they won't...but there is no reason to believe that is the case.

Just as Earl can't say DTV and TIVO will never partner again....he might find it very unlikely....buthe can't definitively say NEVER

IF Earl were to post "DTV has no intention of partnering with TIVO...but never say never"- That would probably not be a trademark cryptic clue...

Just take it for what it is... Debate the merits of SLB or DLB but thinking it's going to change anything in the immediate future is a fools errand at this point.


----------



## mikewolf13

Sixto said:


> Not me. I could never go back.
> 
> The HR2x has just made too many advances over the past year-and-a-half.


But "what if...." like the Comcast Tivo it had PIG and other features...

IF the Hr10-250 had a "next generation" product....what would your result be...

It is a little unfair to compare a 5 year old(estimate) product and the HR20....

sadly....It's all speculation..who knows how fast a MPEG4 DTivo would be....

but in Hypo world...if you were buying a new HD DVR would you buy a DVR+brand DVR or a *new *MPEG4 TIvo....


----------



## James Long

Indiana627 said:


> If only they would share their reasoning, this issue may be able to be put to bed.


Nah. The reason could have been posted a thousand times and there still would be people who would keep the thread up all night complaining that the reason wasn't good enough, or that there was some other reason.

Conspiracies are rarely put down by facts when the people live for the conspiracy. 

(Why is "DirecTV does not offer DLB" on this model not a good enough answer?)


----------



## mikewolf13

lman said:


> It was a hot topic 1 1/2 years ago too. DTV didn't listen then and they're not going to listen now. If they're not going to benefit financially, they could care less what everybody wants.


It could impact $$$

It's called loyalty....after the 2 years...why stay? In 2 years I suspect DIsh and Fios will have significantly increased HD offerings... (i know they *say *they will.)

You make people happy so they stay when committment ends..

People are suppossedly signing up in droves yet comparing *net* subscriber growth for first 3 quarters of 2007 to 2006 is a very sad story... alot of 2 year r15 agreements are ending and increased competition, means you have to make people want to stay

in 2 years when dish has 100+HD channels and Fios has 100+HD channels and any additional HD that DTV does have will be farther and farther from mainsteam (everyone will have the 100 most popular HD channels will the difference be that DTV has BYUTV in HD a d dish doesn't)....what will be the biggest factor in retention?


----------



## mikewolf13

James Long said:


> Conspiracies are rarely put down by facts when the people live for the conspiracy.
> 
> (Why is "DirecTV does not offer DLB" on this model not a good enough answer?)


Yep, If Earl said exactly the reason given to him, we would debate for the next 3000 osts if a) Earl gave the real reason or b) if DTV gave Earl the real reason..


----------



## Sixto

mikewolf13 said:


> But "what if...." like the Comcast Tivo it had PIG and other features...
> 
> IF the Hr10-250 had a "next generation" product....what would your result be...
> 
> It is a little unfair to compare a 5 year old(estimate) product and the HR20....
> 
> sadly....It's all speculation..who knows how fast a MPEG4 DTivo would be....
> 
> but in Hypo world...if you were buying a new HD DVR would you buy a DVR+brand DVR or a *new *MPEG4 TIvo....


The real question is if TiVo was allowed to develop their own "full featured" DirecTV receiver, that they sold themselves, and promoted, and we were assured that it would be a leading edge product, what would we buy.

I'd probably still select the HR2x because development is now in California and tightly integrated with all things DirecTV.

Also, DirecTV would probably never want such a TiVo relationship because customer service would be a nightmare. Their goal has been to get every box with the same interface.

Also not the topic of this thread.

Also: Add MRV and DLB to the HR2x and it's A+ in my book. A perfect box. And to be truthfully honest, I don't miss DLB as much as I used to.


----------



## Indiana627

James Long said:


> Nah. The reason could have been posted a thousand times and there still would be people who would keep the thread up all night complaining that the reason wasn't good enough, or that there was some other reason.
> 
> Conspiracies are rarely put down by facts when the people live for the conspiracy.
> 
> (Why is "DirecTV does not offer DLB" on this model not a good enough answer?)


I disagree and would like to test your theory that D* announcing the reason wouldn't stop or at least help put this issue to bed.


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> I disagree and would like to test your theory that D* announcing the reason wouldn't stop or at least help put this issue to bed.


Does seem curious that the fact that "live" TV isn't actually the buffer hasn't been disputed as part of explanation. Also, the results of hitting right arrow-active was always part of the conspiracy research as well. All in fun for a Friday ...


----------



## anubys

mikewolf13 said:


> Yep, If Earl said exactly the reason given to him, we would debate for the next 3000 osts if a) Earl gave the real reason or b) if DTV gave Earl the real reason..


I don't think there's much chance of "a)"...I'd venture a guess that 99% of the people here would believe Earl...and 95% would believe that he was given the right reason...

with that in mind, I also believe Earl when he says it is a reasonable reason...I just want to know it!

clearly, the only reason a company would upset its customers that way is if the reason -- if given -- would give away/confirm a confidential long-term strategy that would be harmful to the company's plans to disclose...


----------



## James Long

Indiana627 said:


> I disagree and would like to test your theory that D* announcing the reason wouldn't stop or at least help put this issue to bed.


OK

_10_ DirecTV has decided not to offer DLB on the HR20 at this time.
_20_ Why?
_30_ goto 10

Unfortunately the goto 10 also loops back to line 20. 

The company made a decision. If you don't like it there is another company you can deal with. Unfortunately they also have a loop. (New HD will be added soon. When? Soon. When? Soon. When? Soon. ...)


----------



## mightythor88

once the other providers roll out into more markets and have an equal amount of HD offerings the only thing keeping me tied to Directv will be Sunday Ticket. So for their sake I hope they never lose that exclusive deal or there will be a mass "shop around".

I saw someone posted Directv wanted to get their customers on the same systems to keep CSR/tech calls from being problematic. If that is true, it is comical since you can find thread upon thread of CSR/tech complaints and they seem to pay their tech's as little as possible and have the turnover rate a McDonald's would be ashamed of.

Since they still have agreements with Tivo, why not let Tivo make a MPEG4 box and let us - the customers paying them close $1500 a year each decide what we want.


----------



## Capt'n

mightythor88 said:


> Since they still have agreements with Tivo, why not let Tivo make a MPEG4 box and let us - the customers paying them close $1500 a year each decide what we want.


That right there *would* cut into their bottom line. Mostly in regards to DVR fees that would go to Tivo instead of D*.


----------



## Tom Robertson

MicroBeta said:


> ...That, plus with all the other issues the HR20 had in the beginning it _would_ have benefited Directv financially to include *DLB*.
> 
> This makes me believe there is some impact on current/future functionality. I just can't see any reason other than that not to include it.
> 
> I can see Directv not telling us the reasons because it would give away future plans. Businesses don't like to let the compition know what's comming. I don't know if this has anything to do with the silence...but hey, it's a theory. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Ding!, Ding! We have a double winner!


James Long said:


> Nah. The reason could have been posted a thousand times and there still would be people who would keep the thread up all night complaining that the reason wasn't good enough, or that there was some other reason.
> 
> Conspiracies are rarely put down by facts when the people live for the conspiracy.
> 
> (Why is "DirecTV does not offer DLB" on this model not a good enough answer?)


Too bad moderators can't win prizes, we have another winner!


mikewolf13 said:


> Yep, If Earl said exactly the reason given to him, we would debate for the next 3000 osts if a) Earl gave the real reason or b) if DTV gave Earl the real reason..


 This one wins! (How many posts are we up to after Earl and I announced the real reasons? )


Indiana627 said:


> I disagree and would like to test your theory that D* announcing the reason wouldn't stop or at least help put this issue to bed.


Theory has been under test for quite some time now. 

Ok, I will grant the conspiracy theorists one small bone; DIRECTV has not allowed us to detail _exactly_ which features they feel are more interesting to the general user population and are pushing DLB back. (And I also admit I might not know all those details either.) That said, there are many excellent guesses as to what is coming next, that ought to be a good clue as to what is holding DLB out of the picture for the moment.


----------



## ToddinVA

MountainMan10 said:


> One reason they may have gotten rid of DLB is the amount of disk space it takes. A 320 GB drive with HD is only marginally larger than the TIVO from 10 years ago that held 30 hours.


Umm, the orginal TiVo from almost 9 years ago (I know since I had one) had a 14 GB hard drive in it. It only gave you about 4 hours of recording at it's highest quality level. 30 hours from from the bigger and much more expensive version that had two 14 GB hard drives in it and was at the lowest quality level, which was pretty bad.


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok, I will grant the conspiracy theorists one small bone; DIRECTV has not allowed us to detail _exactly_ which features they feel are more interesting to the general user population and are pushing DLB back. (And I also admit I might not know all those details either.) That said, there are many excellent guesses as to what is coming next, that ought to be a good clue as to what is holding DLB out of the picture for the moment.


Instead of them working on new items they 'feel' the genpop will find more interesting, why not first give us what they know we will like - DLB?


----------



## James Long

Thanks for the illustration of my point, Indy. 

_10_ DirecTV wants to work on other features first.
_20_ Why?
_30_ goto 10

It doesn't matter what the answer is ... there won't be satisfaction until there is DLB, correct?
A few thousand more "why?" posts won't speed the process up.


----------



## MountainMan10

I don't recall exactly when I got my first Tivo, but it was a DirectTV version, probably was only 8 years ago, about 2000 and it had 30 hours capacity. There was no choice of quality. It was only the OTA version that had the choice.

Isn't the live buffer now 90 minutes? I wouldn't want to give up 180 minutes of hard drive space to live buffers if I only have 50 hours total. But I would rather have dual 30 minute buffers instead of one 60 or 90 minute buffer.


----------



## anubys

Indiana627 said:


> Instead of them working on new items they 'feel' the genpop will find more interesting, why not first give us what they know we will like - DLB?


well, if what is holding them up is the home media center...it will be well worth the wait for me...


----------



## Indiana627

James Long said:


> Thanks for the illustration of my point, Indy.
> 
> _10_ DirecTV wants to work on other features first.
> _20_ Why?
> _30_ goto 10
> 
> It doesn't matter what the answer is ... there won't be satisfaction until there is DLB, correct?
> A few thousand more "why?" posts won't speed the process up.


Sorry, but we're still talking uncertainties here. If an actual reason was announced, then you may be right, but not yet. D* still hasn't answered any of the Why? questions yet.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Sixto said:


> Does seem curious that the fact that "live" TV isn't actually the buffer hasn't been disputed as part of explanation.


If the buffer isn't live TV, then what is it? When the buffer is activated (via a pause command, etc.), it is linked to the moment of the previous channel change, so the signal had to have been stored somewhere. Is it possible to have some of that content in memory vs. the hard drive? If that's the case, then DLB implementation could be problematic.


----------



## Drew2k

Indiana627 said:


> Sorry, but we're still talking uncertainties here. If an actual reason was announced, then you may be right, but not yet. D* still hasn't answered any of the Why? questions yet.


After the last page of posts, I thought the answer is obvious: *DIRECTV didn't include DLB, starting with the R15 roll-out, because it would have interfered with long-range (maybe even short-range) strategic plans for other features on the DVR+ platform.*

In other words, if they did DLB, maybe they couldn't do *Feature X*. Maybe *Feature X* will be a killer feature and you'll forget all about DLB, and maybe you won't. But to me, it seems *Feature X* is so critical to DIRECTV that they decided not to build DLB into their new line of DVRs.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Indiana627 said:


> Sorry, but we're still talking uncertainties here. If an actual reason was announced, then you may be right, but not yet. D* still hasn't answered any of the Why? questions yet.


I think they've pretty clearly addressed the why. Notice Tom's "Double Winner" post.

There is some feature, which DirecTV obviously feels is "critical", which would be negatively affected by DLB. Whether in development time or actual performance is unknown.

They're not going to detail which feature it is, because that would tip their hand to the competition. For the same reason, DirecTV isn't going to get much clearer wiht their details as to the exact how's & why's that DLB would negatively affect the upcoming, unknown feature.


----------



## James Long

Indiana627 said:


> D* still hasn't answered any of the Why? questions yet.


Are you sure? Or did you just not like the answer and ignore it?


----------



## raott

James Long said:


> Are you sure? Or did you just not like the answer and ignore it?


They choose not to include it has been the only "why" offered up. That is hardly an answer.

James - do you even subscribe to D*?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Drew2k said:


> After the last page of posts, I thought the answer is obvious: *DIRECTV didn't include DLB, starting with the R15 roll-out, because it would have interfered with long-range (maybe even short-range) strategic plans for other features on the DVR+ platform.*
> 
> In other words, if they did DLB, maybe they couldn't do *Feature X*. Maybe *Feature X* will be a killer feature and you'll forget all about DLB, and maybe you won't. But to me, it seems *Feature X* is so critical to DIRECTV that they decided not to build DLB into their new line of DVRs.


*Feature X* must be very special if they still don't have it rolled out after almost 2 years.:nono2:


----------



## Dr. Booda

DC_SnDvl said:


> *Feature X* must be very special if they still don't have it rolled out after almost 2 years.:nono2:


I hope that Feature X isn't one of the current "new" features; that would be disappointing. To me (except for the game room), those features are copycat efforts towards competitor's capabilities, not evolutionary concepts. Future advancements like MRV and the Slingbox clone to watch TV on your PC are also in other products.


----------



## mikewolf13

DC_SnDvl said:


> *Feature X* must be very special if they still don't have it rolled out after almost 2 years.:nono2:





Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually the decision to not have DLB in the platform was made 12-18 months earlier, when they decided NOT to have it in the R15 platform.


Nay.

The decision was made 12-18 months prior to Nov 2005........which means Feature X was on the radar about 4 years ago....

Must be incredible....


----------



## ATARI

mikewolf13 said:


> Nay.
> 
> The decision was made 12-18 months prior to Nov 2005........which means Feature X was on the radar about 4 years ago....
> 
> Must be incredible....


Must not be MRV, as that has been on other platforms for years. Maybe it was a new idea 4 years ago, but D* would be late to the table now.


----------



## Indiana627

James Long said:


> Are you sure? Or did you just not like the answer and ignore it?


Until it's known what feature(s) D* is working on that trumps DLB (or that DLB could harm), I don't consider the question answered.


----------



## General Custer

There is practically no feature that would shut up most of us on this site. Even MRV would not quell most users here. Most of us want MRV but a lot cant implement it due to the cat 5 requirement.

So what could this magical feature be?


----------



## General Custer

And the whole argument with "DLB wasn't part of the R15" and thus wan't placed on the HR20 is also rediculous. One device has problems and defeciencies so lets continue that into the next device.


----------



## tiger2005

DC_SnDvl said:


> *Feature X* must be very special if they still don't have it rolled out after almost 2 years.:nono2:


Haven't you heard, *Feature X* is that they're increasing their 'Keep at Most' limit to 15!! Wow, now I'm excited!! 

Honestly, with this box what has DirecTV innovated? MPEG4 is it, and that's more of a service IMO than an actual 'feature'. Most providers had DoD, media sharing, etc., previously via their box, or a third party provider. So now, we're expected to believe that the lack of DLB is due to some 'new' wonderful feature?? Come on! DirecTV has moved from a decent software package to an in-house product that's main advantage over a 5 year old TiVo receiver are its speed (after 5 years I would hope so) and its ability to handle MPEG4. I'm sorry, but I would've expected more.

Does anyone REALLY think that TiVo couldn't have built a newer, better HD box for DirecTV over what we've received? The whole reason we have these new, wonderful  HD DVR's from DirecTV was $$$. They were able to implement potential future revenue streams with DoD (I'm sure when they add HD the 24 hour download wait to watch a movie will be GREAT!), Gamer's Lounge (JOKE!!), etc.

DirecTV has THREE things going for it right now, IMO.
1.) HD channels - HD Trumps DLB, no question
2.) Most channels available (NHL Network, etc.) - Very important, but is that better than DLB? I'm not so sure.
3.) NFL Sunday Ticket - Not better than DLB IMO & honestly, without DLB the price just seems way too expensive; WITH DLB I never considered the price as I always thought it was a great product

Right now, DirecTV has everyone right where it wants them with their HD product, but as I've said before that won't last. HD will become standard in the not too distant future. Seriously, if DirecTV still offered a crappy selection of HD channels, how many people would be saying the HR20 is a GREAT receiver when its competition is an HD TiVo, Dish HD DVR, etc.??? Honestly, the only thing I enjoy on DirecTV's HD DVR are the enhanced selection of HD channels. Other than that, I miss 95% of the features a TiVo provided. DirecTV striving to be better than a Motorola cable DVR isn't exactly reaching for the stars.

I can't wait until other service providers begin offering their increased HD packages. At that time, I'll have so many more options and I'll be able to decide on what equipment I want in my house rather than what DirecTV THINKS I might want in the way of features. I think DirecTV should take a quick look at Verizon Wireless and their FORMER proprietary system. It came crashing down to the point where Verizon will be totally open to any phone that works on its network band in 2008. DirecTV should be looking to that future, rather than the 180 degree course their currently on.

Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Dr. Booda

tiger2005 said:


> Most providers had DoD, media sharing, etc., previously via their box, or a third party provider.


What comes to mind for the HR2x is "Jack of all trades, expert in none."

For comparison, the PS3 is a great gaming system, its core focus of existence. It also has a great media player, and a pretty bad internet browser. However, these other features do not inhibit its main core focus in any way, nor did they undo previous advancements by necessity.


----------



## dennisj00

erosroadie said:


> Do the DISH HD DVRs have DLB? If so, does DISH try to pull DIRECTV customers away with this feature/benefit?


The VIP -722 brochure at http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dvr_receivers/index.shtml

states on Page 2 . . .

• Two satellite tuners allow you to select from two viewing options
• Single Mode: Picture-In-Picture (PIP) available on any TV, watch/record two live programs, record two live programs,
record two live programs while watching a pre-recorded program
• Dual Mode: Independently view and record programming on two televisions

WOW! PIP and DLB -- to independently VIEW and RECORD on two TVs. . .

Without subscribing or finding a friend or researching on DBSTALK -- that most customers don't do or have a clue how to do. . I'm not sure this really means DLB but it's been implied here or on the previous thread.

Unfortunately DTV has us by the short ones much like our cell phone carriers have us - that we're on the hook for another year or two before we can switch without mucho $$$$ penalty. And by then . . .

HD content is king and that is driving skyrocketing sales. However, just as in any market, customer churn is costly.

MRV is the only feature I can think of that would make me forget / forgive the lack of DLB.


----------



## raott

dennisj00 said:


> The VIP -722 brochure at http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dvr_receivers/index.shtml
> 
> states on Page 2 . . .
> 
> • Two satellite tuners allow you to select from two viewing options
> • Single Mode: Picture-In-Picture (PIP) available on any TV, watch/record two live programs, record two live programs,
> record two live programs while watching a pre-recorded program
> • Dual Mode: Independently view and record programming on two televisions


DLB is also featured in the manual for the moto 6412/6416 with i-guide (its called the "swap" feature.

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf

"Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner. The SWAP feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
• You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
• Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
Note: The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs. If you change channels without using the SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


----------



## Tom Robertson

It seems to me that DIRECTV tried outsourcing the DVR (and the receiver) software a number of times and came up less than satisfied each time. So they decided to bite the bullet and build there own team and their own middleware to be the core of all the future receivers.

So they started from scratch in many areas, thus are still playing catch up to some degree. Yet in some areas, they lept ahead by starting with a clean slate.

Most importantly, DIRECTV has the control they want over the complete look and feel along with the complete responsbility for the timelines they didn't have control over in the past.

Some of you might remember how long it took Dish Network to build all their own code base...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## raw121

Sixto said:


> Does seem curious that the fact that "live" TV isn't actually the buffer hasn't been disputed as part of explanation. Also, the results of hitting right arrow-active was always part of the conspiracy research as well. All in fun for a Friday ...


Can someone shed some light on this? I searched but couldn't find anything about "live" TV not being part of a buffer.

So when watching a Live feed on both the HR2X and a standard receiver on 2 TVs they are exactly in sync? I don't have a non DVR receiver close enough to test this myself.


----------



## tiger2005

Tom - I'd wager that DirecTV was satisfied with their software until Rupert Murdoch came along. Also, as far as playing catch-up, they don't seem to be catching up at all IMO. Its been 18 months and they're still working on a large number of bugs, we've had very few new features in the last few months, and of the new features we have received I'd debate how worthwhile those features are to anyone other than the potential they provide to boost DirecTV's financial statements.


----------



## Dr. Booda

General Custer said:


> There is practically no feature that would shut up most of us on this site. Even MRV would not quell most users here. Most of us want MRV but a lot cant implement it due to the cat 5 requirement.
> 
> So what could this magical feature be?


Yep, networked based MRV falls into the same category as Media Share; a niche feature that isn't applicable to Mom and Pop. Is DirecTV going to run Cat5 between rooms or buy them a Wireless N router and bridge? Are installers going to setup their network up for them? That can't be Feature X.


----------



## mikewolf13

ATARI said:


> Must not be MRV, as that has been on other platforms for years. Maybe it was a new idea 4 years ago, but D* would be late to the table now.


Maybe it's time travel...so if your HR2x doesn't record a show you can go back in time an try again...that could take a while to develop......and make buffers redundant and unnecessary


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Some of you might remember how long it took Dish Network to build all their own code base...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You mean the one they stole from TIVO?


----------



## Capt'n

Looking at E*, their definition of MRV is quite different than just being able to watch recorded dvr content on multiple TVs. You don't need a separate box with E*. They even provide a second remote for an additional room. They even have MRV on non-dvr boxes. They focus on the tuners. That said, wouldn't it make sense that D* follow the industry standard of MRV? Following that logic, you would have to have two buffers giving you DLB.

If D*'s idea of MRV is watching recorded content over a network, then that makes it just a glorified feature of media share. Your just adding a drive for mediashare to pull files off of. Now if they could steam live content over a network with DLB, that would be something. And it would match what the rest of the industry is doing.


----------



## boltjames

puffnstuff said:


> WOW !!! I knew this was going to happen . I think the new poll poked a sleeping bear. While not as strong I kinda feel the same . I just hope the reason is worth it .


No, this new poll _stroked _a bear that _refuses _to sleep.

It's over. There is no DLB. It's not happening. We need to move on now. President Kennedy is dead. He's not coming back. While it's fun in a morbid sort of way to watch the same theories repeated on Discovery HD every November, if the goal is to bring him back to life that's not going to happen.

Sleep, bears. Sleep.

I've got a 7 year old that cries less than some of you. It's a TV. It's entertainment. This isn't real life.

BJ


----------



## mightythor88

tiger2005 said:


> Tom - I'd wager that DirecTV was satisfied with their software until Rupert Murdoch came along.
> 
> +1


----------



## mightythor88

boltjames said:


> I've got a 7 year old that cries less than some of you. It's a TV. It's entertainment. This isn't real life.
> 
> BJ


If your 7yr old was paying you $1500-2000 a year and not satisfied w/ your parenting skills, it would be within its rights to cry its lil' head off.

To me this is sort of like those Whopperfreakout ads, we got used to ordering our whoppers(DLB) and then they decided they didnt want to offer them any longer.

also, why have an advanced (more hd, superfan, etc) MLB EI/NFLST, but no DLB? how can you really enjoy it w/o DLB?


----------



## Capt'n

Capt'n;1442543 said:


> Looking at E*, their definition of MRV is quite different than just being able to watch recorded dvr content on multiple TVs. You don't need a separate box with E*. They even provide a second remote for an additional room. They even have MRV on non-dvr boxes. They focus on the tuners. That said, wouldn't it make sense that D* follow the industry standard of MRV? Following that logic, you would have to have two buffers giving you DLB.
> 
> If D*'s idea of MRV is watching recorded content over a network, then that makes it just a glorified feature of media share. Your just adding a drive for mediashare to pull files off of. Now if they could steam live content over a network with DLB, that would be something. And it would match what the rest of the industry is doing.


Tom,
Thanks for clearing up the difference between MRV and E*'s two room system for me in the other thread. I now see they are two completely different things. :bang


----------



## Tom Robertson

Happy to help. 

It took me a moment to fully realize what you were likely thinking of. (Especially since I'm not a Dish expert.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

Dr. Booda said:


> If the buffer isn't live TV, then what is it? When the buffer is activated (via a pause command, etc.), it is linked to the moment of the previous channel change, so the signal had to have been stored somewhere. Is it possible to have some of that content in memory vs. the hard drive? If that's the case, then DLB implementation could be problematic.


It's highly improbable that the live buffer is stored in memory. That would require enough memory to hold 1.5 hours of MPEG2 HD video, which would make storing the live buffer in memory cost prohibitive.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Some content is always in memory, only enough for a few frames and to build the frames from each Group of Pictures (GOP). The rest is all on disk, roughly up to 15gb for 90min of MPEG2 HD as Cartrivision correctly states.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

mikewolf13 said:


> Nay.
> 
> The decision was made 12-18 months prior to Nov 2005........which means Feature X was on the radar about 4 years ago....
> 
> Must be incredible....


Yeah, sounds like a really killer app.... which would explain it being on a real fast track development schedule. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

ATARI said:


> Must not be MRV, as that has been on other platforms for years. Maybe it was a new idea 4 years ago, but D* would be late to the table now.


And besides, once MRV comes out, people will want at least quad live buffers [QLB] for the ability to watch a buffer of any tuner on any networked DVR. Take :kickbutt: that Dish Network!


----------



## boltjames

mightythor88 said:


> If your 7yr old was paying you $1500-2000 a year and not satisfied w/ your parenting skills, it would be within its rights to cry its lil' head off.
> 
> To me this is sort of like those Whopperfreakout ads, we got used to ordering our whoppers(DLB) and then they decided they didnt want to offer them any longer.
> 
> also, why have an advanced (more hd, superfan, etc) MLB EI/NFLST, but no DLB? how can you really enjoy it w/o DLB?


The Whopper Freakouts took place because the entire sandwich was removed; you guys are acting as affronted even though only one sesame seed is missing.

Sleep bears, sleep.

BJ


----------



## ceored

boltjames said:


> The Whopper Freakouts took place because the entire sandwich was removed; you guys are acting as affronted even though only one sesame seed is missing.
> 
> Sleep bears, sleep.
> 
> BJ


Hey- I want it my way, which is with DLB, which was on the menu!

<-- This is one bear that is not going to sleep on the DLB issue!


----------



## ceored

mightythor88 said:


> also, why have an advanced (more hd, superfan, etc) MLB EI/NFLST, but no DLB? how can you really enjoy it w/o DLB?


I think this may be part of the reason. D* is the only carrier with the nation wide games packages and the only one without DLB. Those leagues have lots of pull and I'd bet D* would do anything to keep them exclusive. DLB is not a HW or SW limited issue, there is anti-DLB pressure coming from somewhere and it's not engineering.


----------



## Doug Brott

cartrivision said:


> And besides, once MRV comes out, people will want at least quad live buffers [QLB] for the ability to watch a buffer of any tuner on any networked DVR. Take :kickbutt: that Dish Network!


Oh my .. DLBs is one thing but no way could I keep up with three or four shows at the exact same time.


----------



## dennisj00

I could keep up with 3 or 4 shows if the wrong key press didn't dump the buffer like tonight when I hit the wrong key and dumped the 'LIVE' buffer while trying the WORKAROUND for DLB.

It still sucks compared to one key to switch between.


----------



## boltjames

ceored said:


> Hey- I want it my way, which is with DLB, which was on the menu!
> 
> <-- This is one bear that is not going to sleep on the DLB issue!


LOL. Well done. Still, DLB's gone and it's never, _ever _coming back.

BJ


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> Oh my .. DLBs is one thing but no way could I keep up with three or four shows at the exact same time.


It would be fun to try


----------



## DC_SnDvl

ceored said:


> I think this may be part of the reason. D* is the only carrier with the nation wide games packages and the only one without DLB. Those leagues have lots of pull and I'd bet D* would do anything to keep them exclusive. DLB is not a HW or SW limited issue, there is anti-DLB pressure coming from somewhere and it's not engineering.


I think that you have the only reasonable explaination. It is also one they would not want to publicly stay.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> LOL. Well done. Still, DLB's gone and it's never, _ever _coming back.
> 
> BJ


Please refrain from making unsubstantiated statements.

No one ever said "it's never, ever coming back".

As a matter of fact, Earl said as much in this thread...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1439761&postcount=233

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Please refrain from making unsubstantiated statements.
> 
> No one ever said "it's never, ever coming back".
> 
> Mike


I'm the one that said "it's never, ever coming back". There. Substantiated. Happy?

And please refrain from telling me what I can or can't say. Thanks.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> I'm the one that said "it's never, ever coming back". There. Substantiated. Happy?
> 
> And please refrain from telling me what I can or can't say. Thanks.
> 
> BJ


I'm sorry. I didn't realize that Directv had told _you_ that it's never comming.


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> I'm sorry. I didn't realize that Directv had told _you_ that it's never comming.


Apology accepted. And I never said that DirecTV said it was never coming back; I came to that unbelievably challenging conclusion myself. Years of thought and analysis of real-world scenarios and algorhythmic progression led me to that statement. I'm giving a symposium on it in Palm Desert this week, in fact.

BJ


----------



## jheda

POSTED 12/30 on the former DLB thread by BoltJames

_BJ needs a new DLB thread with a more realistic and low view count with a more robust poll that doesn't sku the numbers deliberately in DLB's favor.

When this thread was shut down for a week, notice how no one started a DLB thread on the main board? Why this one issue above all others gets annointed stickyworthy is very troublesome. Better use of the Guide real estate. That's a bigger issue. I don't see a sticky. "Why I Love My HR20!" would be a great sticky. Not there. Why DLB? Why is this topic given special treatment when others are not? With fewer and fewer HR10 owners out there, there are fewer and fewer DLB posts started on the main board. With poll momentum and interest waning, you need to bump the thread when it goes into a 3-day death spiral. DLB is a dead issue. Run it's course. This thread should go.

BJ___________________

And i apologize for having to bring up how unprophetic your post in December was based on the poll to date...new poll, same numbers....


----------



## James Long

You guys do realize that the purpose of this thread and DBSTalk is to discuss DBS issues, not each other?

Guys, the topic of this thread is DLB. Get back to it.
:backtotop


----------



## pfueri

If the DLB can be fixed with a software download then why not do it.Why make the latest and greatest HD DVR and not have aleast all the same features as a Tivo.Like DLB, no limit on series links.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

You would think, that if it were that easy, that they would. What does that tell you?


----------



## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> You would think, that if it were that easy, that they would. What does that tell you?


To simplify it in my mind:

The hardware and/or software architecture is so convoluted that something that most the other DVRs on the market include as a standard user experience features can't be done in over 2 years. This just might be the case based on the long track record of issues with the hr2x line. Those of us who were here from the initial release know the long long long list of basic problems that needed to be fixed to get it to where it is generally now stable.

or

That D* doesn't care about what their customers want in a DVR and they are too prideful and arrogant to accept that they should of included this basic feature in the product and refuses to change. The idea that there is some uber next generation feature which makes the use of second tuner making DLB an impossible option is just about impossible imagine. Even if such a feature did exist on some marketing slide some where in the black hole that id D*, it is hard to see how they couldn't make it coexist with DLB using some form of conflict resolution.

or

Both, which is what I think.


----------



## DBSNewbie

Doug Brott said:


> Oh my .. DLBs is one thing but no way could I keep up with three or four shows at the exact same time.





ATARI said:


> It would be fun to try


Watching multiple programs simultaneously (especially sports and news) is not as difficult as it seems. We currently have six TVs in our den, 3 of which are HR20s, and keeping up is not a problem with the ability to pause and rewind with the DVRs.

I'm trying to get ahold of 3 more DVRs for our setup so that we could implement "SLB"... (Sextuple Live Buffers)


----------



## starbiker99

OMG!!! Thats nuts!! I like TV but man oh man that's crazy. I guess I could sell my hog and by some more tv's. NAH.



DBSNewbie said:


> Watching multiple programs simultaneously (especially sports and news) is not as difficult as it seems. We currently have six TVs in our den, 3 of which are HR20s, and keeping up is not a problem with the ability to pause and rewind with the DVRs.
> 
> I'm trying to get ahold of 3 more DVRs for our setup so that we could implement "SLB"... (Sextuple Live Buffers)


----------



## James Long

Boys pick their toys.


----------



## Tom Robertson

btmoore said:


> To simplify it in my mind:
> 
> The hardware and/or software architecture is so convoluted that something that most the other DVRs on the market include as a standard user experience features can't be done in over 2 years. This just might be the case based on the long track record of issues with the hr2x line. Those of us who were here from the initial release know the long long long list of basic problems that needed to be fixed to get it to where it is generally now stable.
> 
> or
> 
> That D* doesn't care about what their customers want in a DVR and they are too prideful and arrogant to accept that they should of included this basic feature in the product and refuses to change. The idea that there is some uber next generation feature which makes the use of second tuner making DLB an impossible option is just about impossible imagine. Even if such a feature did exist on some marketing slide some where in the black hole that id D*, it is hard to see how they couldn't make it coexist with DLB using some form of conflict resolution.
> 
> or
> 
> Both, which is what I think.


Thankfully there are other options available from which to choose...


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> And i apologize for having to bring up how unprophetic your post in December was based on the poll to date...new poll, same numbers....


If anything, it supports my point on how dead this issue is and how it's nothing more than a whinefest for those that mourn the death of the HR10.

Those that are pro-DLB still come out in force, those that don't care don't bother to open the thread or read it let alone vote on it.

And, I'd argue, that with the HR10 pushed to extinction that unhappy people are voting now more than ever and the similar pro/con statistics show that they're being offset by happy people who choose to vote.

Either way, DLB isn't coming back* but if it makes us all happy to discuss why we love/hate it that's a good thing I guess. And I'll continue to play the protagonist not because I dislike DLB but because I adore the HR20 and it's plethora of incremental functionality so much that I cannot comprehend why all it _can_ do isn't enough to offset the one thing it _cannot _do in the minds of a small fraction of the userbase.

BJ
* Opinion of BJ, not D*


----------



## inkahauts

DBSNewbie said:


> Watching multiple programs simultaneously (especially sports and news) is not as difficult as it seems. We currently have six TVs in our den, 3 of which are HR20s, and keeping up is not a problem with the ability to pause and rewind with the DVRs.
> 
> I'm trying to get ahold of 3 more DVRs for our setup so that we could implement "SLB"... (Sextuple Live Buffers)


Your tv's are too small....

And I thought I was unusual with my 62 and 50 sitting next to each other....


----------



## -V-

People keep piping in that DTV DVRs are not Tivos so stop trying to make them into TIVOs...

To which I say.... Shut up and enjoy your DVR! It will still have the same things you want when I am done playing with it to get what I want out of it!


----------



## raott

Stuart Sweet said:


> You would think, that if it were that easy, that they would. What does that tell you?


It tells me D* has a problem if their software engineers cannot figure it out but Dish, Motorola and Tivo did.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Either way, DLB isn't coming back* but if it makes us all happy to discuss why we love/hate it that's a good thing I guess. And I'll continue to play the protagonist not because I dislike DLB but because I adore the HR20 and it's plethora of incremental functionality so much that I cannot comprehend why all it _can_ do isn't enough to offset the one thing it _cannot _do in the minds of a small fraction of the userbase.
> 
> BJ
> * Opinion of BJ, not D*


In the context of this thread, with the clear majority of posts expressing a desire for DLB, you are clearly the antagonist:

an·tag·o·nist














 /ænˈtæg







ə







nɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-*tag*-_uh_-nist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation -noun 1.a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

raott said:


> It tells me D* has a problem if their software engineers cannot figure it out but Dish, Motorola and Tivo did.


As Tom said, thankfully there are other ways of looking at this issue.

*If I may suggest:*

I think that the previous 500 or so posts have been enough for you all to present your basic arguments, which honestly are the same ones that have been presented before.

May I suggest that the next 500 posts be dedicated to thinking of new perspectives and theories?

I publicly challenge the pro-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how they have thrived in the last 18 months without this "must-have" feature.

I further challenge the con-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how DLB would have made your life better in the last 18 months.

Game on!


----------



## beer_geek

Do you need to 5 posts to say D* forced people into hardware in order to get the new HD channels? That's how they "thrived".

It's all about content. DLB is about accessing the content.


----------



## Dr. Booda

beer_geek said:


> Do you need to 5 posts to say D* forced people into hardware in order to get the new HD channels? That's how they "thrived".
> 
> It's all about content. DLB is about accessing the content.


That pretty much sums it up. The only thing positive over the last 18 months is the access to the new HD channels. Period. Every other aspect of the HR2x series has been disappointing, many of which were summarized in post #195.


----------



## Dr. Booda

My wife came up with another positive: the HR21 is black. She likes the aesthetics of the thing.


----------



## DBSNewbie

inkahauts said:


> Your tv's are too small....
> 
> And I thought I was unusual with my 62 and 50 sitting next to each other....


It's funny that you should say that because when the wife and I were discussing plans to put multiple TVs in the den, we were bummed out about the small wall space (there used to be two windows on that back wall) and low ceiling.

We were able to get around the window issue, but couldn't do anything about the ceiling height. So, we ended up "settling" for a 60" and 40's. :grin:

By the way inkahauts,

Love the Avatar. Do you go to their games often?


----------



## ATARI

beer_geek said:


> Do you need to 5 posts to say D* forced people into hardware in order to get the new HD channels? That's how they "thrived".
> 
> It's all about content. DLB is about accessing the content.


+1


----------



## Que

beer_geek said:


> Do you need to 5 posts to say D* forced people into hardware in order to get the new HD channels? That's how they "thrived".
> 
> It's all about content. DLB is about accessing the content.


One day it will have to come to the HR2x line. I just want it sooner then later. They just need to fix a few thing before they break a few more things to get it to work.


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> One day it will have to come to the HR2x line. I just want it sooner then later. They just need to fix a few thing before they break a few more things to get it to work.


That's the spirit


----------



## ATARI

DLB cannot be a hardware issue. You've got two tuners -- you can record on both -- you can manually simulate DLB. Therefore software, not hardware.

Or maybe stubbornness.

Or maybe working on it to make toast?


----------



## rapjrhb

Stuart Sweet said:


> I publicly challenge the pro-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how *they have thrived in the last 18 months *without this "must-have" feature.


Emphasis added by me.

1) Beautiful baby girl born


----------



## rapjrhb

2) Lowered my cholesterol


----------



## rapjrhb

3) Got a new job


----------



## rapjrhb

4) Solved the Rubik's Cube


----------



## rapjrhb

5) I found a penny with the heads-up

There! Now what do I win???


----------



## James Long

Yeah, Stewart, you HAD to say five posts. 

I'd like to see ONE final post ... no replies, +1 or -1 ... just one post from each member voting on the issue. This is my vote and why. No more petty bickering repeating the same posts back and forth and occasionally making personal attacks. Just ONE post simply giving your opinion and why. But, alas, it's not my thread and I doubt if some participants could limit themselves to ONE post.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

James Long said:


> Yeah, Stewart, you HAD to say five posts.
> 
> I'd like to see ONE final post ... no replies, +1 or -1 ... just one post from each member voting on the issue. This is my vote and why. No more petty bickering repeating the same posts back and forth and occasionally making personal attacks. Just ONE post simply giving your opinion and why. But, alas, it's not my thread and I doubt if some participants could limit themselves to ONE post.


Five posts was going to be a stretch anyway, so I'll go with your one post suggestion, James!

I voted for the "I might use DLB but it's not a dealbreaker"... simply because it was the closest answer for me.

My actual answer would be "I *WILL* use DLB, but it's not a dealbreaker".

I understand the value of DLB, I would most certainly use it if it existed. I understand why people who are trying to follow multiple sporting events at a time are so adamant in their pursuit of DLB.

That said, I don't find it so fundamental to my viewing habits that it's a must have feature. I've simply changed my viewing habits. Instead of watching American Idol and keeping tabs on the Sharks game at the same time, I watch the Sharks game live and then watch the recording of AI later. OR, since AI is already recording, I'll use the "workaround" in order to keep tabs on both programs.

That is the ONLY instance where we took advantage of DLB. Otherwise, 95% of the programming we watch is recorded. Other than sporting events, my wife and I don't have any interest in watching things live. We'll watch after the kids are in bed, or, for the later shows (like Leno), we'll watch them the following day in the early evening - while dinner is cooking, usually.

So I"m not necessarily in the "anti-DLB" camp... though I, personally, find some of the other features (DOD for example) to be more appealing than DLB. I'm generally in the "DLB neutral" crowd, although I would most definately use the feature if it were implemented on the HR2x platform.


----------



## jheda

James Long said:


> Yeah, Stewart, you HAD to say five posts.
> 
> I'd like to see ONE final post ... no replies, +1 or -1 ... just one post from each member voting on the issue. This is my vote and why. No more petty bickering repeating the same posts back and forth and occasionally making personal attacks. Just ONE post simply giving your opinion and why. But, alas, it's not my thread and I doubt if some participants could limit themselves to ONE post.


I voted _I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK._ . I utilized DLB for multisport viewing. Like others I watched my main game on tuner one and surfed the other games on the other tuner. I buy both the MLB package and the NHL package and loved the feature for that purpose. There was nothing like the month of september watching all the pennant race games in all the time it took to otherwise watch one. I probably would have gone for the NFL package additionally but without DLB I would not find it fulfilling. I am losing interest in the NHL package for that reason. But Ill never give up my yankees!!!!

Since SLB has been administered, and once again thank you DTV for giving us that, I simply watch my main game and switch either between a recorded show or another recording show. No more surfing. I have become accustomed to it, and I can live with SLB, as i love the hr2x otherwise. Yes I can love the hr2x, reccomend it highly, enjoy its usage, but still wish one day there will be room to reimpliment DLB into its recorders as it enhances the sports packages and makes it worthwhile. I remain active here simply because DLB was an amazing feature that I would love to see back in the future, near or far. However, again, with SLB I am fine.

To conclude, thank you DTV for all the features of the hr2x, for the fantastic HD content, and for implimenting SLB to enjoy a game and another show simultaneously. If DLB ever returns, Ill again enjoy the sports packs..


----------



## rapjrhb

As far as DLB is concerned, I voted "I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate."

I like my HR20 and it does most of what I want out of a DVR. I am very happy that the SLB thing has been improved and we can now hold the pause point when changing to a recorded program. I thought that would make the workaround bearable and that I would start using the workaround like I used to use DLBs but, as it turns out, I find that I really don't bother using the workaround and I just live without watching 2 "live" shows at once. On paper, I thought it would make me forget about DLB but I have found that the workaround is just not worth it (for me). I will continue to watch TV with or without DLB but I will not be fully satisfied with my DVR until DLB is available.


----------



## henryld

rapjrhb said:


> As far as DLB is concerned, I voted "I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate."
> 
> I like my HR20 and it does most of what I want out of a DVR. I am very happy that the SLB thing has been improved and we can now hold the pause point when changing to a recorded program. I thought that would make the workaround bearable and that I would start using the workaround like I used to use DLBs but, as it turns out, I find that I really don't bother using the workaround and I just live without watching 2 "live" shows at once. On paper, I thought it would make me forget about DLB but I have found that the workaround is just not worth it (for me). I will continue to watch TV with or without DLB but I will not be fully satisfied with my DVR until DLB is available.


+1 and with "March Madness" comming up I am not a happy camper.:nono:


----------



## Drew2k

I've been able to live without DLB for all this time because I have multiple DVRs on one TV, but it's certainly not as convenient as true DLB.

Until it gets here (and I think someday it will be here), I'll continue to use my workaround and visit threads like this where others share my goal of one day seeing DLB on the DVR+ line of receivers.


----------



## prestoru

I would be happy to get DLB on the hr21, but what I really want now is TLB. That's right I want three live buffers. 
If My HR21 had DLB I would never have reconnected the hr10, and I wouldn't have thought about using three live buffers.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

prestoru said:


> I would be happy to get DLB on the hr21, but what I really want now is TLB. That's right I want three live buffers.
> If My HR21 had DLB I would never have reconnected the hr10, and I wouldn't have thought about using three live buffers.


Well I want QLB. Quad live buffers.


----------



## saxxon4421

I just read in the notes of new software changes.

Keep Live Review Buffer when playing back recorded content. Came from some guy named Erin. Thought I would share it after reading messages.


This sounds like a definite help. I am a little scared after reading all the comments about this box with the installer bringing me one so that I can have my HD and locals. but this sounds good I think. Any comments as to whether this is a good thing or not is greatly appreciated.


----------



## boltjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> May I suggest that the next 500 posts be dedicated to thinking of new perspectives and theories?


Yes sir, as you wish.

For the next 500 consecutive days, I will post one new perspective on DLB and one new theory on why DLB isn't on the HR2X.

New Perspective #1: With DLB gone and never coming back, more people can take advantage of the great recording and true time-shifting capabilities of the DVR.

New Theory #1: The reason DLB is not on the D* proprietary DVR is because its one additonal thing that can potentially go wrong and lead to customer issues.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> I further challenge the con-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how DLB would have made your life better in the last 18 months.
> 
> Game on!


Yes sir, as you wish.

How DLB Would Have Made My Life Better In The Last 18 Months, Example #1:

Instead of watching Eli Manning toss the Super Bowl winning TD to Plaxico Burress live, I could have been watching that cute chick in the pajamas on PBS Sprout's "The Good Night Show" and perhaps she'd, just once, take her slippers off when she curls up on the couch next to that star puppet. Then, when her painted toes were exposed and "Sagwa" started, I could have flipped back to the TD and experienced two classic moments, frozen in time, buffered to perfection.

BJ


----------



## tiger2005

For those that think DLB is coming at some point in the future, I'd love that, but how would that be possible based on the comments we've heard previously that the reason we don't have DLB is because of features DirecTV has planned for the HR2x series going forward and the potential conflict that may cause? Thoughts?


----------



## Drew2k

tiger2005 said:


> ^ Added to Ignorant list....oops, sorry ignore list.
> 
> For those that think DLB is coming at some point in the future, I'd love that, but how would that be possible based on the comments we've heard previously that the reason we don't have DLB is because of features DirecTV has planned for the HR2x series going forward and the potential conflict that may cause? Thoughts?


That's easy! 

We wait for DIRECTV to deliver Feature X, and then they can work on delivering DLB!

For all we know, they may be working on back-end integration between Feature X and DLB, to mitigate those compatibility issues and reduce conflicts ... One can hope.


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> For the next 500 consecutive days, I will post one new perspective on DLB and one new theory on why DLB isn't on the HR2X.
> 
> BJ


Oh no- hope this issue gets settled before we have to read all of that...:nono2:


----------



## jheda

If you are not aware, you can go into control panel and hide specific posters if u choose to. Ask a moderator for more info. However it will not hide when someone parrots a quote from said poster.



Green23 said:


> Oh no- hope this issue gets settled before we have to read all of that...:nono2:


----------



## rawilson

Green23 said:


> Oh no- hope this issue gets settled before we have to read all of that...:nono2:


It will come close to that for me as I have just about 500 more days left on my commitment. After that, I'll be a Dish customer and won't have to curse DirecTv every time I use my downstairs TV.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

For all of you...

The intention was, sometimes in the next 500 posts made by everyone, that somewhere would be up to five that run contrary to your current point of view. Let's keep the discussion productive and on target.


----------



## vicmeldrew

My local area went online with HD today _ Omaha_ but i will not convert to the HR 21 without DLB; my commitment is over and when i purchase that widescreen not later than the end of April - then I will switch to Cox or Dish and just do without Sunday Ticket - and if D ever does the DLB then I will come back at that point. This thread is really good but no longer serves a useful purpose any longer - but i guess it is important to keep DLB on the radar screen and this is one way of doing it.


----------



## jheda

Stuart Sweet said:


> For all of you...
> 
> The intention was, sometimes in the next 500 posts made by everyone, that somewhere would be up to five that run contrary to your current point of view. Let's keep the discussion productive and on target.


Pro DLB Contrary point one:

SLB is a sufficent tool to allow one to watch 2 shows at on time!


----------



## jasonblair

Your poll has a major flaw... It assumes that people who take the poll owned an HR-10, because 3 of the choices in the poll refer to it. I would assume a good many of us cannot accurately take the poll, because we have never owned an HR-10 or any TiVo product. Until then, I cannot accurately supply you with an answer.


----------



## btmoore

jheda said:


> Pro DLB Contrary point one:
> 
> SLB is a sufficent tool to allow one to watch 2 shows at on time!


No it is not!


----------



## ceored

Post 1:

They thrived on the wealth of HD channels. Getting locals up and running was most likely issue #1. programmers are probably banging away at their keyboards getting the new feeds and sats working. This is undoubtedly D* main advantage. The DVR is important but DLB could take a back seat if development did not go as planned, as long as the box was 90% there it was fine.


----------



## ceored

Post 2:
On demand. It just sounds cool, not as cool in practice, but if the competition had it and they did not it is one more thing that is marketed against. DLB is critical for a small segment, while on demand may appeal to a broader audience (even though DOD is a little lame). Cable or E* saying hey we have DLB is not as sexy as hey we have on demand and can make all your TV dreams come true.


----------



## ceored

tiger2005 said:


> For those that think DLB is coming at some point in the future, I'd love that, but how would that be possible based on the comments we've heard previously that the reason we don't have DLB is because of features DirecTV has planned for the HR2x series going forward and the potential conflict that may cause? Thoughts?


My unsubstantiated opinion:
Conflicts with major sports package contracts.


----------



## lman

rawilson said:


> It will come close to that for me as I have just about 500 more days left on my commitment. After that, I'll be a Dish customer and won't have to curse DirecTv every time I use my downstairs TV.


300 more days for me. It's too bad DirecTV couldn't find a competent DVR. All I wanted was DLB. I guess after 11 years it's time to move on.


----------



## Doug Brott

lman said:


> 300 more days for me. It's too bad DirecTV couldn't find a competent DVR. All I wanted was DLB. I guess after 11 years it's time to move on.


Actually, if all you want is DLB, then you can use and HR10-250 or one of the SD TiVos. However, I suspect that you really want more than just the DLB ..


----------



## boltjames

For the next 499 consecutive days, I will post one new perspective on DLB and one new theory on why DLB isn't on the HR2X.

New Perspective #2: With DLB gone and never coming back, more people can discover the joy of watching just one show at a time. Focusing on the production quality, the writing, the acting.

New Theory #2: The reason DLB is not on the D* proprietary DVR is because advertisers are very concerned about methods in which viewers can avoid commercials.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

How DLB Would Have Made My Life Better In The Last 18 Months, Example #2:

Instead of getting up from my chair to get a bag of Doritos® during commercial breaks, I'd have been busy jumping to another show on the other tuner and thus would be 10 pounds lighter and $250 richer as a result.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

Stuart Sweet said:


> For all of you...
> 
> The intention was, sometimes in the next 500 posts made by everyone, that somewhere would be up to five that run contrary to your current point of view. Let's keep the discussion productive and on target.


That's easy enough to look for someone else to post a viewpoint that we may not espouse, but I just hope we aren't spammed by anti-DLB sentiments disguised as "pro-DLB counterpoints"...


----------



## henryld

ceored said:


> Post 2:
> On demand. It just sounds cool, not as cool in practice, but if the competition had it and they did not it is one more thing that is marketed against. DLB is critical for a small segment, while on demand may appeal to a broader audience (even though DOD is a little lame). Cable or E* saying hey we have DLB is not as sexy as hey we have on demand and can make all your TV dreams come true.


I concur with the lame description. Very little HD content at present and what there is requires a high speed internet connection to take advantage of; not available or very expensive for many of us.


----------



## henryld

ceored said:


> My unsubstantiated opinion:
> Conflicts with major sports package contracts.


Could you elaborate?


----------



## btmoore

Drew2k said:


> That's easy enough to look for someone else to post a viewpoint that we may not espouse, but I just hope we aren't spammed by anti-DLB sentiments disguised as "pro-DLB counterpoints"...


Good point.

I am at a total lost by the anti-DLB perspective.

I just don't see how DLB takes anything away from the DVR experience and is a completely positive for those who feel it is a integral part of a dual tuner DVR.

Basically if you hate DLB and the box has DLB don't switch tuners, just continue to use it as normal, it has zero impact on you.

It is sort of feels like there is a group who doesn't want the DLB people to be happy with their DVR when there is no down side to them, IMO it either comes off as Schadenfreude or a love it or leave it fan boy attitude about D* because it is clear they can do no wrong.


----------



## Tusk

boltjames,

I'm sure this has been asked before, but why are 95% of your 400 posts concentrated in this forum on DLB with the sole purpose of continually stating how much you dislike DLB, that if added to the DVRs, would not affect you one bit?

Seems like you would want to spread your negativity and general unpleasantness to other threads so people who don't read this thread could enjoy your thoughts as much as we do.

Thanks for constantly wasting our time. :righton:


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

btmoore said:


> Good point.
> 
> I am at a total lost by the anti-DLB perspective.
> 
> I just don't see how DLB takes anything away from the DVR experience and is a completely positive for those who feel it is a integral part of a dual tuner DVR.
> 
> Basically if you hate DLB and the box has DLB don't switch tuners, just continue to use it as normal, it has zero impact on you.
> 
> It is sort of feels like there is a group who doesn't want the DLB people to be happy with their DVR when there is no down side to them, IMO it either comes off as Schadenfreude or a love it or leave it fan boy attitude about D* because it is clear they can do no wrong.


I think there are a few answers as to why the "anti DLB" sentiment.

First, there are those who like and use the new features that have been added, and would like to see more such features added. So if it has to be an either/or proposition, they would opt for the new features (DOD, MediaShare, MRV) over DLB. And, at this point, I think most of the arguments are based on the opinion that it IS, in fact, an either/or deal. The argument from the "pro-DLB" camp is "why waste time designing feature X which nobody is going to use when you could design DLB which everyone is going to use". And, on the other side, "why waste time designing DLB when the designers could be working on feature X".

Second, the arguments I just laid out don't leave much room for middle ground. If the argument laid out is work on THIS *or* THAT, then people feel compelled to pick a side, and if DLB isn't their cup of tea, they're going to pick the other side.

I don't think anyone is actively _ANTI_-DLB, just like I don't think that some of the proDLB people are actually _ANTI_-VOD or _ANTI_-MediaShare or _ANTI_-MRV. I think it's just a case where people are passionate for the features that they want and that passion polarizes people.

And, not many of us in "forum land" are very good at avoiding the threads that have to do with issues we're not concerned about... On either side of the aisle, you'll find people who just feel compelled to pop into a thread and drop in their .02... even if it's the same .02 they've dropped time, and time, and time again.


----------



## boltjames

Tusk said:


> boltjames,
> 
> I'm sure this has been asked before, but why are 95% of your 400 posts concentrated in this forum on DLB with the sole purpose of continually stating how much you dislike DLB, that if added to the DVRs, would not affect you one bit?
> 
> Seems like you would want to spread your negativity and general unpleasantness to other threads so people who don't read this thread could enjoy your thoughts as much as we do.
> 
> Thanks for constantly wasting our time. :righton:


Think of me as the Guardian Of The Innocent. GOTI, for short.

My role isn't really to convince the DLB zealots that they should live without it; my role is to make sure that newbs hitting this thread see some positivity for the HR2X mixed in with the "I miss my HR10 why isn't the HR20 an HR10 why did Tivo have to go away Paul McCartney shouldn't have broken up the Beatles JFK was killed by a lone gunman Reality TV is for the unintelligent if you don't own a 335i you shouldn't have bought a BMW" material.

The bottom line is that the HR2X is a fantastic DVR. Fantastic. The word must be spread so that newbs don't hit this thread and run away from D* needlessly.

GOTI is here for that. I am on the side of God. Do not forget that.

BJ


----------



## jheda

Tusk said:


> boltjames,
> 
> I'm sure this has been asked before, but why are 95% of your 400 posts concentrated in this forum on DLB with the sole purpose of continually stating how much you dislike DLB, that if added to the DVRs, would not affect you one bit?
> 
> Seems like you would want to spread your negativity and general unpleasantness to other threads so people who don't read this thread could enjoy your thoughts as much as we do.
> 
> Thanks for constantly wasting our time. :righton:


BTW, you can go into control panel and hide specific posters if u choose to. Ask a moderator for more info. However it will not hide when someone parrots a quote from said poster


----------



## James Long

jheda said:


> BTW, you can go into control panel and hide specific posters if u choose to. Ask a moderator for more info. However it will not hide when someone parrots a quote from said poster


Just click on the user's avatar, then the link that says "add ___ to your ignore list" on their profile page.

(The link looks something like this: *Add boltjames to Your Ignore List*. )

BTW: I don't "ignore" anyone with the function ... even before I became a mod I found that putting someone on my ignore list just made their posts more tempting to look at. So I cleared the forum ignore list and now simply skim past people I don't want to read (skimming because I am a moderator). (The first rule of internet forums should be that you are not required to respond. Silence can sometimes be the best "weapon" against someone who is looking for an argument.  )

For those who want to post the same thing over and over, just a reminder from the forum's User Agreement ...
(q) The posting of duplicate messages in the same forum or in multiple forums is not allowed, and the duplicates are subject to deletion. This not only includes posts that are identical to other posts from the same user or from different users, but also includes posts that are similar in message to other posts left by the same user. Repeated rants against anyone or anything will be considered spam and subject to removal.​
So please, while you make your five solid posts or one final "this is what I voted and why" post in this thread, remember the DBSTalk forum rules!


----------



## ATARI

jheda said:


> BTW, you can go into control panel and hide specific posters if u choose to. Ask a moderator for more info. However it will not hide when someone parrots a quote from said poster


This is like deja vu -- I could have sworn I read this post someplace else today.

Something to do with a shark or something. I forget. It's been a long day.


----------



## boltjames

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't think anyone is actively _ANTI_-DLB, just like I don't think .....


Correct.

I won't speak for anyone else, but I'm not anti-DLB. I'm pro-HR20. Big difference. Anti-DLB makes no sense. It's not a feature that anyone ever cared about anyway, so why not put it back. Who cares? But those that use DLB as a reason to hate on the HR20, well, that's just not right.

The term anti-DLB should stop. We're pro-HR20 whereas many in this thread are anti-HR20 because they're so consumed with the one measely feature it lacks that they fail to see all the greatness in the tons of extra features it's been given. That type of thing has been going on since the glory days of the Tivo forums and it really needs to stop. Those that want a Tivo, go buy a Tivo. You can get an HR10 for $10 on eBay. Newbs, first-time D* subscribers, those on the fence, lurkers, those still clinging to their HR10's because of false fear of the HR20, those are the people that need the truth. And the truth is that the HR20 is a fabulous DVR and there's no reason in the world to not get one and get onboard the D* bandwagon.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

I just don't see the "anti-HR20" sentiment here that you do, BJ. To use a favorite phrase, seems like you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. The problem you see is just not evident to me ...

You really do need to visit other threads here at DBSTalk to see how the same people who post in this thread about being upset there is no DLB are posting elsewhere about other features of the HR20 that they love.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Correct.
> 
> It's not a feature that anyone ever cared about anyway, so why not put it back. Who cares?


Good grief Bolt. If no one cared about it, we wouldn't have these long DLB threads. It's obvious that the vast majority of people here do care about it and want it. This is the one area where DirecTV has totally dropped the ball with the HR20, as well the HR15. So stop saying no one cares about it, it's ridiculously obvious that many do...


----------



## beer_geek

It's most certainly "Anti-DLB". If it was "Pro-HR20", there would be posts all over the forum telling people there aren't any problems with this perfect piece of hardware.


----------



## jheda

Drew2k said:


> I just don't see the "anti-HR20" sentiment here that you do, BJ. ......You really do need to visit other threads here at DBSTalk to see how the same people who post in this thread about being upset there is no DLB are posting elsewhere about other features of the HR20 that they love.


Best post by anyone in this thread in a long time Drewsky....


----------



## ATARI

Attn: BJ

I am pro-HR20.

My HR20 is great and I'm diggin the HD content.

I am also impressed with all the improvements and refinements it has gotten the past year.

But as good as the HR20 is, it could be better. And better for me would be DLB.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Drew2k said:


> I just don't see the "anti-HR20" sentiment here that you do, BJ. To use a favorite phrase, seems like you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. The problem you see is just not evident to me ...
> 
> You really do need to visit other threads here at DBSTalk to see how the same people who post in this thread about being upset there is no DLB are posting elsewhere about other features of the HR20 that they love.


OH stop making things up Drew... you know as well as I do that everyone who wants DLB hates the HR20 and everything about it because it's not a Tivo! 

Seriously though, I agree with you on this one. I don't think that the people here looking for DLB are anti-HR20 anymore than the people who would prefer DirecTV to work on other features are anti-DLB....

There's just a difference of opinions as to which features we'd like to see come to the platform first.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well put. 

It's perfectly possible to be a huge HR20 fan and a DLB proponent too. Ask Tom Robertson. It's also perfectly possible to be a huge HR20 fan and mostly not care about DLB. That would be me. 

I'm also sure that there are people who hate the HR20 and not because it's missing DLB.


----------



## mikewolf13

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well put.


Then shouldn't the DLB discussion be simply about DLB?

Whenever there's a poll or question about DLB the responses should be pro or against DLB not a comparison of DLB to feature x,y, or z.

Saying "I want MRV before DLB" is not a discussion of DLB it's hijacking a thread to talk about MRV.

FOr anyone that's afarind DTV will "listen" and suddenly prioritize DLB...rest easy...it's been 2+ years..you can stop being guardians of the importand features.


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> Good grief Bolt. If no one cared about it, we wouldn't have these long DLB threads. It's obvious that the vast majority of people here do care about it and want it. This is the one area where DirecTV has totally dropped the ball with the HR20, as well the HR15. So stop saying no one cares about it, it's ridiculously obvious that many do...


1. A few hundred voters in a biased online forum poll is certainly not much considering the millions of HR20's in use and...

2. If DLB were that important to the majority of the D* DVR userbase, they'd have put it on there. They left everything else important and added a whole bunch of new stuff. It's not there. There's a reason it's not. Sure, it could be partically due to technology or other conflicts or shifts of focus. But it wasn't worked in, it wasn't a critical consideration, and it's not on the drawing board. It's an older feature, other DVR's have it as a no-brainer, it was part of the D* family of services and it's not there. There's only one good reason why. Lack of interest.

BJ


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

mikewolf13 said:


> Then shouldn't the DLB discussion be simply about DLB?
> 
> Whenever there's a poll or question about DLB the responses should be pro or against DLB not a comparison of DLB to feature x,y, or z.
> 
> Saying "I want MRV before DLB" is not a discussion of DLB it's hijacking a thread to talk about MRV.
> 
> FOr anyone that's afarind DTV will "listen" and suddenly prioritize DLB...rest easy...it's been 2+ years..you can stop being guardians of the importand features.


By the same token, a thread about feature X should be about feature X, and shouldn't have interjections put in like "Why would they waste time developing feature X when they haven't even been able to figure out DLB?"

And often (not always, mind you), the talk of other features is brought in by the ProDLB argument that "no one uses feature X, but everyone would use DLB". Or "Feature X wouldn't be available to some because they can't connect to the network, but DLB is a feature that everyone could use". When the arguments go there, the people who use feature X,Y, or Z are going to jump in and say "I use them, I know people who use them, so your argument that nobody uses them is faulty".

And further, if the vote in a poll is "against" DLB because they'd rather see feature X FIRST, then the talk is bound to shift to feature X. It's not an intentional hijacking of the thread, it's just that if I come into the thread and say "I dont' want DLB because I would rather have X", then the talk turns to why I should want DLB instead of my preferred feature, or why you should want my preferred feature instead of DLB.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I just don't see the "anti-HR20" sentiment here that you do, BJ. To use a favorite phrase, seems like you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. The problem you see is just not evident to me ...
> 
> You really do need to visit other threads here at DBSTalk to see how the same people who post in this thread about being upset there is no DLB are posting elsewhere about other features of the HR20 that they love.


I wish there were a sticky about "Why The HR20 Is A Great DVR And Anyone Who Owns An HR10 Needs To Read This To Learn Why". I'd spend all my time there. I'd even moderate it and buy lollipops for all who post nice things there.

The DNA of the DLB discussion leads straight back to the Tivo forums, and it shouldn't have found it's way to DBS IMHO. In the real-world, D* lurkers and HR10 owners visit there, read all the negative stuff, see this "DLB" phrase uttered over and over again. Then, they come to DBS to see if all that negativity is true and WHAM, there's that "DLB" sticky atop the HR20 board.

Agreed that many posters in this thread are also positive in other threads, but this is the one that's visible and this is the one that connects back to Tivo and this one hurts the HR20 IMHO.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

*ATARI Attn: BJ

I am pro-HR20.

My HR20 is great and I'm diggin the HD content.

I am also impressed with all the improvements and refinements it has gotten the past year.*

Yes! Good man. Finally getting you to see the light. Told you that DLB just isn't that

*But as good as the HR20 is, it could be better. And better for me would be DLB.*

Damn. So close.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm also sure that there are people who hate the HR20 and not because it's missing DLB.


Who are these people? I want names. My supporters and I are well-funded and have the ability to put a stop to them.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

Sometimes when you hear a quack, it's just a duck. As far as I can tell, there will be no black helicopters out today.


----------



## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well put.
> 
> It's perfectly possible to be a huge HR20 fan and a DLB proponent too. Ask Tom Robertson. It's also perfectly possible to be a huge HR20 fan and mostly not care about DLB. That would be me.
> 
> I'm also sure that there are people who hate the HR20 and not because it's missing DLB.


I think this is where the disconnect is, I am not a fan which is the shortened from the word version of fanatic, huge or small when it comes to consumer products and services. I don't get being a fan for any piece of equipment or any provider, I can like and dislike attributes or the entire thing, I can appreciate the better mousetrap, I enjoy technical eloquence and sophistication in a product when it improves the my experience, which makes it more likely for me to purchase from that vendor again, but I don't cheer them on, fall in love with them or feel loyal to their brand or product. For me it is about what I want from my TV leisure experience, the overall investment in my infrastructure, the cost and impact of change and how that impacts my overall experience. Basically, I buy products and services I am not trying to develop an deep personal relationship, as long as the value equation is balanced or I feel it is in my favor I keep paying the bills. At least for me, this has nothing to do with being a "fan" and everything with losing a feature I miss having when watching TV that I found very valuable and wanting them to return it.


----------



## ceored

henryld said:


> Could you elaborate?


The NFL or other major sports franchise has one major source of revenue, advertisers. Advertisers only get paid by the client if people watch the ads and buy product. Sporting games are one of the few things on TV where watching live is important. DLB allows you to jump around live TV without missing anything but commercials. If the advertiser told the NFL hey will pay you 100K for 30sec ad, but ad-views are down because of DVR, do something about it and we'll pay 150K. NFL uses its exclusive contract with D* to influence which features get left out of the new box. Combine that with the need to upgrade to get MPEG-4 and all the sudden you don't have much of a choice if you want it all, Sunday Ticket (or other package) and MPEG-4 HD DVR, the only place to go is HR2X. Goodbye DLB.

Of course this argument has many weaknesses as do most DLB theories because it is crazy to remove functionally that is actively used from a consumer product. Especially when your competition has it, D* has a good reason and for me when you add it up the only difference between E* and D* are the sports packages and DLB so it make sense to me that they are somehow related.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

BTmoore, I know you've been around this forum quite a while. How soon is it before your commitment it up?


----------



## AZ_Engineer

Earl Bonovich said:


> As I pointed out many many times before...
> 
> What's the difference (from an advertising argument) between recording two shows... and watching two shows live, even with DLB...
> 
> It is almost a guarantee it is easier to "skip" the advertisements on a recorded content... with any type of DLB or SLB implementation you are going to see more.
> 
> Plus it still doesn't get rid of the core issue of people just flipping the channel or walking away.
> 
> So again, it is ZERO to do with advertising $'s.


Earl, have they fixed the issue with the HR21 dumping the buffer when switching? Or are you saying to simulate DLB by telling the system to record both shows? Is there a one button jump between recorded shows? I think the way my wife and I use DLB is more in a way to channel surf. I was watching her last night, and she would find something that might be interesting and watch until a commercial. Then pause and switch tuners. Channel surf on that tuner until something eles slightly interesting. Watch until bored, or a commercial, and then back to the other tuner to watch until commercial. I suppose she could start recording each, but they when she decides to switch, she would have to tell the box to stop recording in order to find the next thing to start recording. Seems pretty cumbersome compared to DLB...joe


----------



## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> BTmoore, I know you've been around this forum quite a while. How soon is it before your commitment it up?


I am under no commitment.

So what is the point of your question?

You know how it reads to me when a question like this is asked?

It is code for why don't you just leave if you don't love it or just shut up. Sort of insulting IMO.


----------



## Doug Brott

Everyone makes their own choices for different reasons. To some liking a product makes them a fan ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

btmoore said:


> I am under no commitment.
> 
> So what is the point of your question?
> 
> You know how it reads to me when a question like this is asked?
> 
> It is code for why don't you just leave if you don't love it or just shut up. Sort of insulting IMO.


Quite the opposite. I am glad to hear you have all your options available to you, and glad you're still with DIRECTV even though their DVR doesn't have dual live buffers. It adds to my respect for you that you've decided to stay, as opposed to having that decision made for you.


----------



## ceored

btmoore said:


> I think this is where the disconnect is, I am not a fan which is the shortened from the word version of fanatic, huge or small when it comes to consumer products and services. I don't get being a fan for any piece of equipment or any provider, I can like and dislike attributes or the entire thing, I can appreciate the better mousetrap, I enjoy technical eloquence and sophistication in a product when it improves the my experience, which makes it more likely for me to purchase from that vendor again, but I don't cheer them on, fall in love with them or feel loyal to their brand or product. For me it is about what I want from my TV leisure experience, the overall investment in my infrastructure, the cost and impact of change and how that impacts my overall experience. Basically, I buy products and services I am not trying to develop an deep personal relationship, as long as the value equation is balanced or I feel it is in my favor I keep paying the bills. At least for me, this has nothing to do with being a "fan" and everything with losing a feature I miss having when watching TV that I found very valuable and wanting them to return it.


I completely agree with this statement, there are very few consumer items that did well by removing features used by the consumer. I creates a distaste for the brand. D* is hiding the lack of this feature behind HD access and in my opinion it will eventually come out that their box doesn't have all the features as their competitors even though they all have the same channels and price and D* will be forced into DLB. They have already started, I heard a radio ad for E* yesterday that touted their DLB and MRV.


----------



## jheda

btmoore said:


> I am under no commitment.
> 
> So what is the point of your question?
> 
> You know how it reads to me when a question like this is asked?
> 
> It is code for why don't you just leave if you don't love it or just shut up. Sort of insulting IMO.


BT, not the way Stuart thinks, FWIW.


----------



## ceored

AZ_Engineer said:


> Earl, have they fixed the issue with the HR21 dumping the buffer when switching? Or are you saying to simulate DLB by telling the system to record both shows? Is there a one button jump between recorded shows? I think the way my wife and I use DLB is more in a way to channel surf. I was watching her last night, and she would find something that might be interesting and watch until a commercial. Then pause and switch tuners. Channel surf on that tuner until something eles slightly interesting. Watch until bored, or a commercial, and then back to the other tuner to watch until commercial. I suppose she could start recording each, but they when she decides to switch, she would have to tell the box to stop recording in order to find the next thing to start recording. Seems pretty cumbersome compared to DLB...joe


This is exactly my point on the advertisers. These are huge companies and they know how people use their product and they will do what they can to get more money from the consumer. They don't like the way you channel surf and are actively working on discouraging it by working in coordination with content providers and D*. Maybe not face to face, but believe me they are glad DLB is gone and will work to keep it that way.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

btmoore said:


> I think this is where the disconnect is, I am not a fan which is the shortened from the word version of fanatic,...


I'll agree with you there... definately a disconnect. I think that most of us, when we refer to being a "fan" of one product or the other aren't thinking "fanatic".

Fan, while originally derived from fanatic, doesn't have the same connotation now as fanatic. It refers simply to a "devotee, follower, or admirer of a sport, pastime, celebrity, etc...". Fanatic takes it to the next level, and implies excessive, irrational, or uncritical devotion.

I think most of us who claim to be "fans" of the HR20 understand that there is more work to be done, and that there are features which could be added which would improve the product.

And I'm a "fan" insomuch as the HR20 gives me the greatest viewing experience at this point in time, which I think is exactly how you described your feelings towards the HR20. I appreciate the features available, and the features that are reported to be coming. There are features which could be added which would make the experience even better...

I'm not a "fan" because DIrecTV made the product, or because I think DirecTV is the best thing since sliced bread. I'm a "fan" because with the content currently available on DirecTV, it gives me the greatest viewing experience. No more, no less.


----------



## jheda

ceored said:


> This is exactly my point on the advertisers. These are huge companies and they know how people use their product and they will do what they can to get more money from the consumer. They don't like the way you channel surf and are actively working on discouraging it by working in coordination with content providers and D*. Maybe not face to face, but believe me they are glad DLB is gone and will work to keep it that way.


Not what we are being told and IMHO I believe the sources telling us otherwise.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I think most of us who claim to be "fans" of the HR20 understand that there is more work to be done, and that there are features which could be added which would improve the product.


A very wise man ..


----------



## Doug Brott

ceored said:


> This is exactly my point on the advertisers. These are huge companies and they know how people use their product and they will do what they can to get more money from the consumer. They don't like the way you channel surf and are actively working on discouraging it by working in coordination with content providers and D*. Maybe not face to face, but believe me they are glad DLB is gone and will work to keep it that way.


I think any chance possible that Advertisers would prefer that we watch "Live" TV (Dual Live Buffer) vs. watching recorded TV.


----------



## ceored

btmoore said:


> I am under no commitment.
> 
> So what is the point of your question?
> 
> You know how it reads to me when a question like this is asked?
> 
> It is code for why don't you just leave if you don't love it or just shut up. Sort of insulting IMO.


I just paid $99 to be under a 2year commit and add a lease fee despite the fact that the HR21 lacked DLB, which I still use on the R10 that is now in the bedroom.

The board is a smart group and I hope they will stay smart, if so then DLB will be back soon.


----------



## ceored

Doug Brott said:


> I think any chance possible that Advertisers would prefer that we watch "Live" TV (Dual Live Buffer) vs. watching recorded TV.


My guess is there research shows that people either 1) always record shows and sports and never watch commercials or 2) watch live TV and are willing to watch commercials to not miss content. I am a live watcher, though I do record some shows I deem important. That said with DLB you can watch all the content without missing a thing while still not watching the ads. Without it you run the same risks as normal channel surfing, missing content to miss ads. Most stuff on TV is not worthy of being recorded in my opinion. I would find it hard to record "Mysteries of the Hoover Dam" on the history channel half way through and then take the time to delete later, but I still want to watch the whole thing. DLB allowed me to do that without having to watch the commercials. It is a hard thing to explain to those that use DVR to make their lives and TV more efficient.


----------



## ceored

jheda said:


> Not what we are being told and IMHO I believe the sources telling us otherwise.


Our sources with sources in engineering or with product management? Did Rupert himself tell us?


----------



## Tusk

boltjames said:


> I wish there were a sticky about "Why The HR20 Is A Great DVR And Anyone Who Owns An HR10 Needs To Read This To Learn Why". I'd spend all my time there. I'd even moderate it and buy lollipops for all who post nice things there.
> 
> The DNA of the DLB discussion leads straight back to the Tivo forums, and it shouldn't have found it's way to DBS IMHO. In the real-world, D* lurkers and HR10 owners visit there, read all the negative stuff, see this "DLB" phrase uttered over and over again. Then, they come to DBS to see if all that negativity is true and WHAM, there's that "DLB" sticky atop the HR20 board.
> 
> Agreed that many posters in this thread are also positive in other threads, but this is the one that's visible and this is the one that connects back to Tivo and this one hurts the HR20 IMHO.
> 
> BJ


This thread does not "hurt" the image of the HR20. I sat on the sidelines with my HR10 until, based on threads on this board, the HR20 had the majority of the bugs worked out. I bought knowing that it didn't have DLB and probably wouldn't get it for a long time. You know what, I like everything about my HR20 better than my HR10 (which I still use) except for...you guessed it...DLB.

I wouldn't say I love the HR20. Love is a strong word reserved for my wife, kids and my PS3 . However, I'm very happy with the 2 I have and they do everything I want except DLB. My main gripe comes from the fact that every other DVR available has DLB except the HR20. Even the terrible motorola box that Comcast calls a DVR has the ability to do DLB.

I understand if you do not want or plan on ever using DLB, but it is not an outdated technology that only stupid people who can't use DVR's properly want on their machines. It is a feature I used for 2 years with DISH, for 3 years with DirecTV Tivo's, and 6 months with Comcast. I WANT IT ON MY HR-20 TOO . Either DirecTV is incompetent or they have made a decision to withhold a feature that everyone in the world without an HR20 has access to. I will keep using my HR20 regardless and am sure I will stay with DirecTV after my commitment is over. I will however continue to hope it's added.


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> I wish there were a sticky about "Why The HR20 Is A Great DVR And Anyone Who Owns An HR10 Needs To Read This To Learn Why". I'd spend all my time there. I'd even moderate it and buy lollipops for all who post nice things there....


In the information forum there are a couple threads of that nature, especially the Tips and Tricks thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=72648



boltjames said:


> 1. A few hundred voters in a biased online forum poll is certainly not much considering the millions of HR20's in use and...
> 
> 2. If DLB were that important to the majority of the D* DVR userbase, they'd have put it on there. They left everything else important and added a whole bunch of new stuff. It's not there. There's a reason it's not. Sure, it could be partically due to technology or other conflicts or shifts of focus. But it wasn't worked in, it wasn't a critical consideration, and it's not on the drawing board. It's an older feature, other DVR's have it as a no-brainer, it was part of the D* family of services and it's not there. There's only one good reason why. Lack of interest.
> 
> BJ


Is this your logic in a nutshell?: "Because feature TLA is not present; therefore it is not an important feature, and further it will never be there."

Shouldn't this also imply that DIRECTV isn't working upon any new features? That all missing features are "not important" to the customers?

We know such logic is not true; yet again in yesterday's conference call DIRECTV is publicly working on features they feel are important. We also saw new features at CES that DIRECTV was very excited about.

Therefore, we can be assured your logic is clouded.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ceored

jheda said:


> Not what we are being told and IMHO I believe the sources telling us otherwise.


"They" know what we are doing with our DVR in real time.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070718.wtivoo0718/BNStory/Technology/home


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Interesting article but it seems to pertain only to TiVos.


----------



## ceored

Stuart Sweet said:


> Interesting article but it seems to pertain only to TiVos.


Correct, however I believe that one could use the Tivo data to track global DVR trends.


----------



## ceored

From the article Tivo seems to trying to generate more revenue by tracking DVR usage for advertisers. A nice revenue hedge against other encroaching DVR services.


----------



## boltjames

ceored said:


> The board is a smart group and I hope they will stay smart, if so then DLB will be back soon.


So if I'm reading you correctly, you're recommending that the pro-DLB zealots go on strike. Call D* and unsubscribe. Send their HR20's back xx xxxxxx. Tell them to take their underfeatured DVR and shove it. Show them who's boss.

I like it. I like it a lot. Money where the mouth is. Action instead of talk. Proactivity instead of whining. Perfect.

BJ


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am certain that no one, not even the esteemed previous poster, is suggesting in a public forum that you break your lease agreement and intentionally damage DIRECTV's equipment.


----------



## ceored

boltjames said:


> So if I'm reading you correctly, you're recommending that the pro-DLB zealots go on strike. Call D* and unsubscribe. Send their HR20's back in pieces. Tell them to take their underfeatured DVR and shove it. Show them who's boss.
> 
> I like it. I like it a lot. Money where the mouth is. Action instead of talk. Proactivity instead of whining. Perfect.
> 
> BJ


Swing and a miss.

No, I meant smart as in taking a 15 billion dollar company and making it a 30 billion dollar company in 2 years. That is pretty smart. They will bring back all the functionality to their box to keep quality customers as referenced in their conf. call recently, it just may take some time. Whatever their reason is for holding back DLB it isn't for improving your TV viewing experience, but the market will speak soon enough.


----------



## ceored

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am certain that no one, not even the esteemed previous poster, is suggesting in a public forum that you break your lease agreement and intentionally damage DIRECTV's equipment.


Too true, I for one assume no liability for incorrect interpretations of my postings.


----------



## boltjames

*Tom Robertson ]In the information forum there are a couple threads of that nature, especially the Tips and Tricks thread:*

"Tips and Tricks" talks to tweaks......no different than similar threads for HR10 owners over on the other forum. It doesn't even imply "Wow, Look How Great The HR20 Is" the way the "I Miss DLB I Hate You D*" sticky does.

*Is this your logic in a nutshell?: "Because feature TLA is not present; therefore it is not an important feature, and further it will never be there." *

Sort of but not really. My logic is that if it was an established feature for years that D* offered it's customers and its now gone despite the addition of numerous other features that it's not important. Otherwise it would be available. I could see if the HR20 was a stripped-down HR10 with scores of missing features and zero new innovation. But the HR20 is a DVR jamboree, a fiesta of functionality. It can almost toast bread, yet no DLB. I think that makes the answer very obvious.

*Shouldn't this also imply that DIRECTV isn't working upon any new features? That all missing features are "not important" to the customers? *

D* is always striving for something new. Always trying to please its customers, reduce returns, and make more money. DLB is something old. That's the argument. Putting it another way: D* knows what tired features are not important but is pushing the boundaries to see what new things _might _be important. That's what it looks like to me at least.

*Therefore, we can be assured your logic is clouded. *

No doubt I'm clouded, but I happen to believe I'm _right _nonetheless. Al signs point to this:

Proprietary DVR, D* has the ability to build what they want without interference. No DLB.

D* adding tons of other features, many are very tweaky, many are new and unproven, tons of old features kept aboard. No DLB.

D* adding tons of new content, raising prices, making it more challenging than ever for a consumer to pony up the bucks to stay in the D* family. No DLB.

D* aware of DBS, aware of unhappy loyalists, continually listen to feedback and make changes to the HR20. No DLB.

D* comes out with a next-gen DVR in the HR21. Chance to "get it right" this time. No DLB.

If the sky is grey, if the ground is wet, if umbrellas are out, if windshield wipers are on, one does not need to look up and get drops on ones face to know that it's raining. The net effect of the results tell you what the events are.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> I am certain that no one, not even the esteemed previous poster, is suggesting in a public forum that you break your lease agreement and intentionally damage DIRECTV's equipment.


LOL. No, no, no. No HR20's were hurt during the filming of this drama.

What I am recommending though is for posters to put their money where there mouths are. Instead of complaining, take action.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> If the sky is grey, if the ground is wet, if umbrellas are out, if windshield wipers are on, one does not need to look up and get drops on ones face to know that it's raining. The net effect of the results tell you what the events are.
> 
> BJ


If one has a closed mind, one's world is quite small.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> If one has a closed mind, one's world is quite small.


Bingo!

Work with me here D2K. I think you're the person that can get onboard and make everyone else see the light.

If one is too close-minded to all the great new features on the HR20 because one is fixated on the one measely feature that's "missing", it makes the HDTV joy all grey and cloudy.

Help me convince the others. The people I represent are well-funded and we'll make it worth your while.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Bingo!
> 
> Work with me here D2K. I think you're the person that can get onboard and make everyone else see the light.
> 
> If one is too close-minded to all the great new features on the HR20 because one is fixated on the one measely feature that's "missing", it makes the HDTV joy all grey and cloudy.
> 
> Help me convince the others. The people I represent are well-funded and we'll make it worth your while.
> 
> BJ


Sorry, but I can not be swayed to your dark side!

My mind is open to the possibility that DIRECTV may one day deliver DLB, whereas your mind is closed to that possibility.

My open mind sees a future where one day all users can watch what they want, when they want, how they want.

Your closed mind sees only the present, accepting the buffer we have is all we'll have, one lone buffer wallowing in solitude.

My open mind sees a day where users rejoice in their choices of viewing methods, deciding to flip between buffers or not.

Your closed mind sees users suffering at the mercy of the evil single buffer, and you are content.

I am not content, and I say, rise up, rise up all you who want choice!

Rise up, rise up all you who want to rejoice!

Rise up, rise up all you who want DLB!

DLB for you!

DLB for me!

DIRECTV!

DLB!

DIRECTV!

DLB!

_(This post best read while humming Glory Glory Hallelujah.)_


----------



## ceored

Drew2k said:


> Sorry, but I can not be swayed to your dark side!
> 
> My mind is open to the possibility that DIRECTV may one day deliver DLB, whereas your mind is closed to that possibility.
> 
> My open mind sees a future where one day all users can watch what they want, when they want, how they want.
> 
> Your closed mind sees only the present, accepting the buffer we have is all we'll have, one lone buffer wallowing in solitude.
> 
> My open mind sees a day where users rejoice in their choices of viewing methods, deciding to flip between buffers or not.
> 
> Your closed mind sees users suffering at the mercy of the evil single buffer, and you are content.
> 
> I am not content, and I say, rise up, rise up all you who want choice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want to rejoice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want DLB!
> 
> DLB for you!
> 
> DLB for me!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB!
> 
> _(This post best read while humming Glory Glory Hallelujah.)_


Testify!


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> No doubt I'm clouded, but I happen to believe I'm _right _nonetheless. Al signs point to this:
> 
> Proprietary DVR, D* has the ability to build what they want without interference. No DLB.


Here's some more clouded logic:

DirecTV hates everything TiVo and never wants to be mentioned with them ever again.

DirecTV is so afraid of any litigation risk that they demand product development build a DVR from the ground up and not include anything "TiVo like" in its functionality prior to the addition of new features.



boltjames said:


> D* comes out with a next-gen DVR in the HR21. Chance to "get it right" this time. No DLB.


The HR21 isn't a next generation product; it's a less expensive (from a cost POV) HR20 without OTA. The base software is the same.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Besides the MP4 content and the black color, I found a third feature of the HR2x that is cool (per Stuart's request). When you turn it on, the buffer has already recorded 90 minutes of the current station it is tuned to. Very useful in the morning to back up the news to the top of the hour and hit the headlines.


----------



## DBSNewbie

Dr. Booda said:


> Besides the MP4 content and the black color, I found a third feature of the HR2x that is cool (per Stuart's request). When you turn it on, the buffer has already recorded 90 minutes of the current station it is tuned to. Very useful in the morning to back up the news to the top of the hour and hit the headlines.


That's very interesting. I never knew that. I should try that out.

So I just want to clarify: The receiver can be turned off and when it is turned back on, it has buffered the last 90 minutes of the last channel it was tuned to?

Or did you mean in your example that when the TV is turned on in the morning, the last 90 minutes were buffered because the receiver had remained on all night?

Sorry for the seemingly silly or stupid question. <---- Try to say that five times fast 

I just wanted to make sure.

Thanks,


----------



## sbelmont

DBSNewbie said:


> That's very interesting. I never knew that. I should try that out.
> 
> So I just want to clarify: The receiver can be turned off and when it is turned back on, it has buffered the last 90 minutes of the last channel it was tuned to?
> 
> Or did you mean in your example that when the TV is turned on in the morning, the last 90 minutes were buffered because the receiver had remained on all night?
> 
> Sorry for the seemingly silly or stupid question. <---- Try to say that five times fast
> 
> I just wanted to make sure.
> 
> Thanks,


It's when you turn the receiver on, there is always 90 minutes already buffered. I noticed that too. It is never really off.


----------



## boltjames

DBSNewbie said:


> Or did you mean in your example that when the TV is turned on in the morning, the last 90 minutes were buffered because the receiver had remained on all night?


Yes. That's called SDB (single dead buffer).

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Sorry, but I can not be swayed to your dark side!
> 
> My mind is open to the possibility that DIRECTV may one day deliver DLB, whereas your mind is closed to that possibility.
> 
> My open mind sees a future where one day all users can watch what they want, when they want, how they want.
> 
> Your closed mind sees only the present, accepting the buffer we have is all we'll have, one lone buffer wallowing in solitude.
> 
> My open mind sees a day where users rejoice in their choices of viewing methods, deciding to flip between buffers or not.
> 
> Your closed mind sees users suffering at the mercy of the evil single buffer, and you are content.
> 
> I am not content, and I say, rise up, rise up all you who want choice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want to rejoice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want DLB!
> 
> DLB for you!
> 
> DLB for me!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB!
> 
> _(This post best read while humming Glory Glory Hallelujah.)_


I don't know what's more outstanding;
What you wrote or
the way that
you made
the
wo
rd
s
cr
eep
down
in a curvy
type fashion.
The one lone buffer,
alone in its solitude, waiting
for it's mate so that D* can move forward. Nicely done.

BJ


----------



## dennisj00

Dr. Booda said:


> Besides the MP4 content and the black color, I found a third feature of the HR2x that is cool (per Stuart's request). When you turn it on, the buffer has already recorded 90 minutes of the current station it is tuned to. Very useful in the morning to back up the news to the top of the hour and hit the headlines.


I've only had the HR20 since September but it's always done that - what a feature! Simply erases any thought of DLB in my mind!

The 20 is smart enough to stay on the last channel that it was doing anything on! It's your responsiblity to figure out if that's going to be the station you want the buffer of.

Seriously, DLB has many uses other than watching two programs at one time. First, the ability to easily see what's going on on the second tuner and second, the ability to hit an incorrect key (cat paws) on the remote and not lose what you're watching. Third, the ability to QUICKLY check another channel without losing what you're watching or going through the RECORD scenario.

Just give us access to the second tuner - even with a small buffer!


----------



## ATARI

After a good night's sleep and big cup of Java this morning, I've come to realization that BJ is right -- DLB is not that big of a deal, and we should just stop asking for it as it is never going to happen.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
NOT!!


----------



## Dr. Booda

dennisj00 said:


> I've only had the HR20 since September but it's always done that - what a feature! Simply erases any thought of DLB in my mind!
> 
> The 20 is smart enough to stay on the last channel that it was doing anything on! It's your responsiblity to figure out if that's going to be the station you want the buffer of.


Ah, you discovered the irony of my post. :grin: I'm having to reach here to get to the requested five things I like about the HR2x without DLB. Maybe I'll figure out the other two this year when Feature X is introduced.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *51 7.68%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *111 16.72%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. *68 10.24%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *412 62.05%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. *22 3.31%*
Voters: *664*

Replies 562
Views 12,034


----------



## jheda

Que said:


> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *51 7.68%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *111 16.72%*
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. *68 10.24%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *412 62.05%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. *22 3.31%*
> Voters: *664*
> 
> Replies 562
> Views 12,034


Ten percent more voters then your last post. No statistical change. If I recall from an earlier post after 200 votes where i stated that would be enough of a sampling...and it is consistent. 2/3 of the voters want DLB implimented uncontroverted; 3/4 prefer it at a minimum.

.


----------



## ub1934

Drew2k said:


> Sorry, but I can not be swayed to your dark side!
> 
> My mind is open to the possibility that DIRECTV may one day deliver DLB, whereas your mind is closed to that possibility.
> 
> My open mind sees a future where one day all users can watch what they want, when they want, how they want.
> 
> Your closed mind sees only the present, accepting the buffer we have is all we'll have, one lone buffer wallowing in solitude.
> 
> My open mind sees a day where users rejoice in their choices of viewing methods, deciding to flip between buffers or not.
> 
> Your closed mind sees users suffering at the mercy of the evil single buffer, and you are content.
> 
> I am not content, and I say, rise up, rise up all you who want choice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want to rejoice!
> 
> Rise up, rise up all you who want DLB!
> 
> DLB for you!
> 
> DLB for me!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB!
> 
> DIRECTV!
> 
> DLB! hurah[/SIZE][/I][/B][/COLOR]
> 
> _(This post best read while humming Glory Glory Hallelujah.)_


 YES , YES , YES , YES , :hurah: :hurah:


----------



## ToddinVA

Dr. Booda said:


> Besides the MP4 content and the black color, I found a third feature of the HR2x that is cool (per Stuart's request). When you turn it on, the buffer has already recorded 90 minutes of the current station it is tuned to. Very useful in the morning to back up the news to the top of the hour and hit the headlines.


And with DLB, you'd have 2 channels that it was recording and double the chance that it was recording something you wanted to see...


----------



## jahgreen

Stuart Sweet said:


> I publicly challenge the pro-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how they have thrived in the last 18 months without this "must-have" feature.
> 
> I further challenge the con-DLB crowd, each of you, to write five posts in the next 500 on the subject of how DLB would have made your life better in the last 18 months.
> 
> Game on!


I don't really fit in either of those camps. Instead, I offer my 5 reasons (all in one post) of how DLB would make everyone's lives better in the *next* 18 months (with apologies to David Letterman and anybody else I offend):

5. Elimination of Internet congestion caused by posters and readers of this thread will permit faster porn downloads for millions.*

4. Fewer arguments about the statistical significance of DBSTalk polls.

3. Earl will never again have to say, "If we told you the reason there's no DLB, we'd have to kill you."

2. Everyone can focus on the next most important HR2* flaw: the menu change that added .4 seconds to the time it takes to reach "To Do."

And the number one reason that having DLB would improve everyone's lives over the next 18 months:

1. Instead of posting in this thread, Boltjames could spend quality time with his loved ones.**

*Not that this applies to anyone here.

** Please, no cracks about my making unjustified assumptions.


----------



## jheda

jahgreen said:


> I don't really fit in either of those camps. Instead, I offer my 5 reasons (all in one post) of how DLB would make everyone's lives better in the *next* 18 months (with apologies to David Letterman and anybody else I offend):
> 
> 5. Elimination of Internet congestion caused by posters and readers of this thread will permit faster porn downloads for millions.*
> 
> 4. Fewer arguments about the statistical significance of DBSTalk polls.
> 
> 3. Earl will never again have to say, "If we told you the reason there's no DLB, we'd have to kill you."
> 
> 2. Everyone can focus on the next most important HR2* flaw: the menu change that added .4 seconds to the time it takes to reach "To Do."
> 
> And the number one reason that having DLB would improve everyone's lives over the next 18 months:
> 
> 1. Instead of posting in this thread, Boltjames can spend quality time with his loved ones.**
> 
> *Not that this applies to anyone here.
> 
> ** Please, no cracks about my making unjustified assumptions.


seriously, there are tears coming from my eyes....


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jahgreen said:


> I don't really fit in either of those camps. Instead, I offer my 5 reasons (all in one post) of how DLB would make everyone's lives better in the *next* 18 months (with apologies to David Letterman and anybody else I offend):
> 
> (...)


Probably the funniest post I've read all month. Well done!


----------



## Tom Robertson

jahgreen said:


> I don't really fit in either of those camps. Instead, I offer my 5 reasons (all in one post) of how DLB would make everyone's lives better in the *next* 18 months (with apologies to David Letterman and anybody else I offend):
> 
> 5. Elimination of Internet congestion caused by posters and readers of this thread will permit faster porn downloads for millions.*
> 
> 4. Fewer arguments about the statistical significance of DBSTalk polls.
> 
> 3. Earl will never again have to say, "If we told you the reason there's no DLB, we'd have to kill you."
> 
> 2. Everyone can focus on the next most important HR2* flaw: the menu change that added .4 seconds to the time it takes to reach "To Do."
> 
> And the number one reason that having DLB would improve everyone's lives over the next 18 months:
> 
> 1. Instead of posting in this thread, Boltjames could spend quality time with his loved ones.**
> 
> *Not that this applies to anyone here.
> 
> ** Please, no cracks about my making unjustified assumptions.


Shouldn't you be back to work now that the writer's strike is over! Surely you write for one of my favorite late nite guys.  (And that is a compliment! to misparaphrase the Smothers Brothers.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boltjames

jahgreen said:


> 1. Instead of posting in this thread, Boltjames could spend quality time with his loved ones.


Loved ones? I want names. The people I represent are well funded and we can put a stop to them.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *51 7.68%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *111 16.72%*
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. *68 10.24%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *412 62.05%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. *22 3.31%*
> Voters: *664*
> 
> Replies 562
> Views 12,034


Forgot one:

I am happy with my HR20 and have no reason to visit DBS or open this thread *1,685,312 99.24%*

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Forgot one:
> 
> I am happy with my HR20 and have no reason to visit DBS or open this thread *1,685,312 99.24%*
> 
> BJ


I am not computer literate nor do I understand the base technology of the HR2x, so when something goes wrong, I'm confused and call DirecTV as they are my only source of information. What the heck is DBSTalk? *1,685,312 99.24%*


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> I am not computer literate nor do I understand the base technology of the HR2x, so when something goes wrong, I'm confused and call DirecTV as they are my only source of information. What the heck is DBSTalk? *1,685,312 99.24%*


Welcome to my parlor said the spider to the fly. You proved my point. Gracias.

Common D* folk don't visit discussion forums. Techy videophile types do. That's why the beloved poll will forever be skewed from reality and is not valid as a representation of the D* DVR userbase. If in the real world DLB was as big a problem as this thread would lead some to believe, D* would be swamped with requests and phone calls and angry blogs and damning Motley Fool articles about unhappy customers. A groundswell of D* hate to the point of forcing them to reconsider this dusty old feature from so long ago that so few care about today.

If we're looking for a poll that shows what the 1% techy videophile minority thinks about the HR20, this thread serves that purpose. But if it's supposed to be some realistic view of the true D* consumer base, nope. Never going to happen. They'd be calling D* and we'd know about it by now via D* action, not inaction.

BJ


----------



## 94SupraTT

Bit the bullet and have an HR20 on the way. One of my HR10s is dying my the Mrs. is pissed at the reboots. The HR10 will go in our bedroom and the HR20 is going to be hooked up in the living room. Got the HR20 for free (2yr commitment) and the HD pack for free for 1year.


----------



## Drew2k

This beloved poll is not meant to speak for the entire population of all HR20/HR21 users. It's in an HR20/HR21 forum and only speaks for the population of DBSTalk members who has chosen to respond to the poll.

The poll only speaks to the desire of this segment of the population, and as such, is statistically valid and expresses the strong desire for DLB by this population. This can not be refuted - the majority of respondents to the poll want DLB. Why argue further?


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> This beloved poll is not meant to speak for the entire population of all HR20/HR21 users. It's in an HR20/HR21 forum and only speaks for the population of DBSTalk members who has chosen to respond to the poll.
> 
> The poll only speaks to the desire of this segment of the population, and as such, is statistically valid and expresses the strong desire for DLB by this population. This can not be refuted - the majority of respondents to the poll want DLB. Why argue further?


I agree. No need to argue further. We now know, twice over, that DBSTalk members want DLB overwhelmingly. That 1% of the D* universe has spoken and has been heard by D*.

Additionally, less than one post per week seems to be of the "where is DLB?" variety anymore, and with fewer and fewer HR10 people out there, is there even a need for this as a sticky anymore? Not challenging the moderators......just asking the question of the group.

The poll is 'over', no new knowledge there. The need to clarify the whereabouts of DLB is 'over', the common-man conversion to the HR20 is done. The discussion is 'over', no new ground just the same old whining and bickering. Un-sticky this, remove the poll? Is it time?

BJ


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> The discussion is 'over', no new ground just the same old whining and bickering. Un-sticky this, remove the poll? Is it time?


Naw. We won't just cut off the argument just because you're losing it.
Perhaps even losing it in more ways than one ...

Look, it's been fun (sort of) but the rule mentioned earlier in this thread needs to be applied. You've made your point ... now get on with life before your posts are classified as spamming and they are delt with accordingly.

That goes for the others who feel that repetition is the way to "win" the argument. If you can't make your point in a minimum of posts you probably don't have a solid point to make. It's just talk.

Move on.


----------



## jheda

94SupraTT said:


> Bit the bullet and have an HR20 on the way. One of my HR10s is dying my the Mrs. is pissed at the reboots. The HR10 will go in our bedroom and the HR20 is going to be hooked up in the living room. Got the HR20 for free (2yr commitment) and the HD pack for free for 1year.


Welcome!!!! You will love the HR20 IMHO, it has many features and the HD content is amazing. Sounds like you made a great deal, enjoy!!!! Please look at the tips and tricks site for the hr20...very cool!!!

PS if you enjoy this site please consider joining the Club it has many benefits and is well worth the $15 per year.


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## Green23

boltjames said:


> For the next 500 consecutive days, I will post one new perspective on DLB and one new theory on why DLB isn't on the HR2X.
> 
> BJ


Have not seen your new perspective/theory for today...


----------



## James Long

Green23 said:


> Have not seen your new perspective/theory for today...


At this point ... we need to move beyond that. Please guys, move on.


----------



## 94SupraTT

jheda said:


> Welcome!!!! You will love the HR20 IMHO, it has many features and the HD content is amazing. Sounds like you made a great deal, enjoy!!!! Please look at the tips and tricks site for the hr20...very cool!!!
> 
> PS if you enjoy this site please consider joining the Club it has many benefits and is well worth the $15 per year.


Not sure if I will love it. I'm one of those that has been hoping that Tivo and D* would kiss and make up. I love the Tivo interface, DLB, and the hackability of the Tivo. I'll have to adjust though. I am looking forward to being able to stream music, photos and video to the HR20. I was able to stream music and photos to my SD Tivo but not having to hack the HR20 to do so is nice. I'll check out the tips section and hopefully learn something because I know very little about the HR20.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> At this point ... we need to move beyond that. Please guys, move on.


My sentiments exactly. The HR20's a great machine, the amount of HD we've been given in the last three months is astounding, performance is rock-solid, and we've got scores of new features to keep us busy.

DLB? Definitely time to move on. Not just me, JL. All of us.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> DLB? Definitely time to move on. Not just me, JL. All of us.
> 
> BJ


Yeh, it's definitely time for DirecTV to move on with implementing DLB on the HR20/21!!


----------



## DC_SnDvl

ToddinVA said:


> Yeh, it's definitely time for DirecTV to move on with implementing DLB on the HR20/21!!


I would agree with that. If the HR20 had DLB I would sign up for the Hotpass, but it is kind of stupid if you can't switch back and forth between the race and the driver feeds.

And the work arround is no good because I don't want to pick one to record and I don't want to miss the end if it goes long.


----------



## Lord Vader

DC, you make a good point regarding DLB and Hot Pass. In order to switch back and forth, I have to use my HR10-250 to watch the network race HD feed and my HR20-700 to watch the HD drivers' channels. Today's free preview, but I already told them I wasn't renewing the package, and DLB is the single biggest reason why. So, they lost out on one's customer's $99.


----------



## jheda

Guys I think we are getting somewhere. And i thank Stuart. Forcing me to be introspective caused me in an earlier post to conclude i do not miss DLB ....except for extra innings and center ice where i watch my home team and flip on tuner 2 between remainng games. I also came to the conclusion I wont by NFL ticket without it, and may not even renew center ice without DLB. This seems to be your conclusion too for hot pass. 
_*Said otherwise, for premium sports packages, DLB is the feature that enhances it to the value one pays*_,

That does not mean ever purchaser of these league passes uses it... some just purchase it to watch their one displaced team. I understand that bleeding pinstripes here in fort lauderdale.

That also doesnt mean other uses for DLB llike watching 2 news shows at once and others im not thinking of...

*But my selling point is as follows: DTV...implimenting DLB makes a great selling point for the season passes of sports.*



Lord Vader said:


> DC, you make a good point regarding DLB and Hot Pass. In order to switch back and forth, I have to use my HR10-250 to watch the network race HD feed and my HR20-700 to watch the HD drivers' channels. Today's free preview, but I already told them I wasn't renewing the package, and DLB is the single biggest reason why. So, they lost out on one's customer's $99.


----------



## Drew2k

jheda said:


> That also doesnt mean other uses for DLB llike watching 2 news shows at once and others im not thinking of...


I'm a political junkie and at election time, I like to bounce around between the news channels. DLB greatly enhances my ability to bounce, especially when I see a "coming up" promo ... I can pause that channel and use the other tuner to continue bouncing, returning to the paused channel to see the segment I wanted. Then I can bounce around on both tuners again.


----------



## James Long

That's amazing ... most news junkies I've read on DBSTalk love one channel so much they'd never flip away to another channel.


----------



## btmoore

James Long said:


> That's amazing ... most news junkies I've read on DBSTalk love one channel so much they'd never flip away to another channel.


Nope, I did the same thing, with the old dtivo I typically kept one tuner on the financial news like CNBC and would toggle the other tuner to other news or entertainment programming. That way if I was waiting for an interview on CNBC I could always toggle back and rewind and not miss it, and I didn't have to watch a bunch of content I was not necessarily interested in. But often during the day while I am working I do typically just keep CNBC on in the background to keep me current on daily business trends.


----------



## rawilson

jheda said:


> Welcome!!!! You will love the HR20 IMHO, it has many features and the HD content is amazing. Sounds like you made a great deal, enjoy!!!! Please look at the tips and tricks site for the hr20...very cool!!!
> 
> PS if you enjoy this site please consider joining the Club it has many benefits and is well worth the $15 per year.


Funny, I feel the exact opposite. Hate the HR20 but still love my DirecTivo.


----------



## DBSNewbie

DC_SnDvl said:


> I would agree with that. If the HR20 had DLB I would sign up for the Hotpass, but it is kind of stupid if you can't switch back and forth between the race and the driver feeds.
> 
> And the work arround is no good because I don't want to pick one to record and I don't want to miss the end if it goes long.


Because of no DLB, I had to use this workaround:


----------



## Drew2k

DBSNewbie said:


> Because of no DLB, I had to use this workaround:
> 
> <image showing 6 HD TVs in use>


Stuart ... *There's* your "new perspective"! 

Now why didn't the rest of us think of that? :grin:


----------



## inkahauts

94SupraTT said:


> Not sure if I will love it. I'm one of those that has been hoping that Tivo and D* would kiss and make up. I love the Tivo interface, DLB, and the hackability of the Tivo. I'll have to adjust though. I am looking forward to being able to stream music, photos and video to the HR20. I was able to stream music and photos to my SD Tivo but not having to hack the HR20 to do so is nice. I'll check out the tips section and hopefully learn something because I know very little about the HR20.


I don't want tivo an directv to reaquaint themselves, and I don't think anyone else should either.. Directv is working on adding every feature that any tivo ever had and far more, (and I believe someday DLB wil be there, but there are other things that must be done first, or it would screw up long term plans, and I've posted some of those in the past) and they aren't going to make you Hack the unit to do it. They want all their customers to have all features easily accessibe... Why go with tivo when you can have it all?

As long as you come in with an open mind,and realize that it will take a small adjustment period to change your old tivo habits (especay since things can happen so much faster on an HR2x because of all there shorttcuts) you should love it. Just don't let yourself be influenced by anyones opinions here as to it being a inferior product, especially on DLB, until after you've used it for a month. And we will all help you fgure out how to use it, just ask...


----------



## inkahauts

Here is how I interpret the poll so far... 3.5% of the people don't know what they are missing because of one feature not yet on our HR2xs... And no one is against DLB... Its to bad that the old poll didn't have that one question about not picking up an HR20 without DLB, because thats the one number that I'm guessing really has changed...... 3.5% isn't going to get Directv to change their developmental timeline that they have put together, and I firmly believe that there are other things that obviously must show up on these units before they can actually implement DLB without haveing problems with other functionality....


----------



## beer_geek

> performance is rock-solid


If that's the case, why are there so many threads on this board?


----------



## jheda

beer_geek said:


> If that's the case, why are there so many threads on this board?


Easily answered :

Every product, specifically electronics, will have issues, desires, room for imporvement, etc. See Macrumors.com, a site similiar to this for apple products, with eerily (sp?) similiar complaints, including for my beloved iphone (tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc.


----------



## jheda

I agree, the hr2x IMHO is a FAR superior product to my sdtivo, except for the fact it lacks DLB, which does not outweigh its many superior features...Very few even on this thread state that the hr20 in its present state is an inferior product , putting the DLB issue aside



inkahauts said:


> I don't want tivo an directv to reaquaint themselves, and I don't think anyone else should either.. Directv is working on adding every feature that any tivo ever had and far more, (and I believe someday DLB wil be there, but there are other things that must be done first, or it would screw up long term plans, and I've posted some of those in the past) and they aren't going to make you Hack the unit to do it. They want all their customers to have all features easily accessibe... Why go with tivo when you can have it all?
> 
> As long as you come in with an open mind,and realize that it will take a small adjustment period to change your old tivo habits (especay since things can happen so much faster on an HR2x because of all there shorttcuts) you should love it. Just don't let yourself be influenced by anyones opinions here as to it being a inferior product, especially on DLB, until after you've used it for a month. And we will all help you fgure out how to use it, just ask...


----------



## jheda

I believe the HD content is so amazing that sooner rather than later those 3.5% will rollover...where DTV will lose _some_ income is with the season passes for as I said in a recent post DLB greatly enhances those passes makeing the $150 or so much more palatable.



inkahauts said:


> Here is how I interpret the poll so far... 3.5% of the people don't know what they are missing because of one feature not yet on our HR2xs... And no one is against DLB... Its to bad that the old poll didn't have that one question about not picking up an HR20 without DLB, because thats the one number that I'm guessing really has changed...... 3.5% isn't going to get Directv to change their developmental timeline that they have put together, and I firmly believe that there are other things that obviously must show up on these units before they can actually implement DLB without haveing problems with other functionality....


----------



## Doug Brott

DBSNewbie said:


> Because of no DLB, I had to use this workaround:


Sorry, I'm having trouble believing your user name :lol:

Nice setup .. No way would that fly in my house :nono2: :lol:


----------



## beer_geek

jheda said:


> Easily answered :
> 
> Every product, specifically electronics, will have issues, desires, room for imporvement, etc. See Macrumors.com, a site similiar to this for apple products, with eerily (sp?) similiar complaints, including for my beloved iphone (tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc.


If it is "rock solid" there shouldn't be any "issues". If it already is "perfect" there shouldn't be a need for "tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc".

OHHHH, wait a minute, I get it. There ARE "issues" so it isn't "rock solid". It isn't "perfect" so there's a need for "tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc". Silly me.


----------



## jheda

Rock soild is a subjective word, I didnt use it, and from your post 597 one cant discern who did;

although rock solid is not a term i use, i would have to say AT THIS POINT if rock solid means very few errors, both my hr2xs are rock solid.

but we are a bit off topic...



beer_geek said:


> If it is "rock solid" there shouldn't be any "issues". If it already is "perfect" there shouldn't be a need for "tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc".
> 
> OHHHH, wait a minute, I get it. There ARE "issues" so it isn't "rock solid". It isn't "perfect" so there's a need for "tips tricks, workarounds, hacks improvement requests, etc". Silly me.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Dr. Booda said:


> I am not computer literate nor do I understand the base technology of the HR2x, so when something goes wrong, I'm confused and call DirecTV as they are my only source of information. What the heck is DBSTalk? *1,685,312 99.24%*





boltjames said:


> Welcome to my parlor said the spider to the fly. You proved my point.


Actually, you missed my point entirely. I was inferring that only 1% of DirecTV's customers are computer literate enough to consider utilizing the "Internet Connection" based features of the HR2x series (Media Share, DOD, and MRV). 99% of DirecTV's customers would consider utilizing DLB if it would require a simple button push on a remote like the HR10.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

a littly good news. Because of my complaint to DTV about the HR20 not having DLB they have offered me another one for free.

Something good has come out of this after all.


----------



## Capt'n

DC_SnDvl said:


> a littly good news. Because of my complaint to DTV about the HR20 not having DLB they have offered me another one for free.
> 
> Something good has come out of this after all.


Your kidding right? You must of had some other complaint to go with it? If not, I think they just opened a can of worms they probably shouldn't have, lol


----------



## boltjames

DC_SnDvl said:


> a littly good news. Because of my complaint to DTV about the HR20 not having DLB they have offered me another one for free.
> 
> Something good has come out of this after all.


So if I tell them how happy I am with the HR20's 90 minute SLB they'll offer me, what, _two _for free?

Maybe supporting the cause of DLB will work for me after all.

BJ


----------



## tiger2005

jheda said:


> Rock soild is a subjective word, I didnt use it, and from your post 597 one cant discern who did;
> 
> although rock solid is not a term i use, i would have to say AT THIS POINT if rock solid means very few errors, both my hr2xs are rock solid.
> 
> but we are a bit off topic...


I would beg to differ. If rock solid mean't very few errors, I'd have to say the HR2x's are not rock solid. There are still numerous trick play issues, Guide speed issues, UI is still completely unorganized, etc. I have told people that they should get an HR2x, but that is only so they can get the HD channels. HD trumps all of those factors, but IMO that's not a plus for the HR2x's performance. Just because the HR2x's are the only DVR boxes where you can get the additional HD channels, doesn't mean that's a plus for their performance. DirecTV still has a LONG, LONG way to go.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'm happy with the performance of both my HR20 and HR21, but my wife does remind me that there are things that need work. Fortunately, we know that DIRECTV is hard at work and that things will improve.

If there were a perfect situation in the industry, I'm sure we would all be there in a heartbeat .. as it is, we all are making compromises in some areas.


----------



## btmoore

Doug Brott said:


> I'm happy with the performance of both my HR20 and HR21, but my wife does remind me that there are things that need work. *Fortunately, we know that DIRECTV is hard at work and that things will improve*.
> 
> If there were a perfect situation in the industry, I'm sure we would all be there in a heartbeat .. as it is, we all are making compromises in some areas.


You must be using the royal We, because We (I am using the royal We) sure don't know that. It could be they are hard working but We are not sure they are working smart.


----------



## Tom Robertson

We, as in several of us, do know they are working hard and also working smart. (And smart workers.) 

Would I personally have changed the order of things? Maybe. I sure would have tried. :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't want to speak for Doug but I, for one, know that DIRECTV is hard at work and that things will improve.


----------



## Doug Brott

btmoore said:


> You must be using the royal We, because We (I am using the royal We) sure don't know that. It could be they are hard working but We are not sure they are working smart.


There are many things involved in the evolution of the hardware and the software. The folks I have spoken with are very smart and are very interested in making our experience better.


----------



## dantodd

The Daytona 500 was on this week. I pay for Hot Pass and it is EXTREMELY frustrating to NOT have DLB. We watch the driver channel and try to keep track of what is happening in the network PIP. When something exciting happens in the race that is not near my racer I now miss the entire thing. In the past I used my R10 to keep the network feed on the second tuner and would just flip over and back up to the beginning of the segment. 

The lack of DLB severely limits my enjoyment of a service that I pay extra for on top of my normal subs. I wish that what DC_SnDvl said was true and a simple call to D* would get a second DVR. I need an HDMI switch anyway so it's not a big deal to have 2 HR's. But I already have 2 SD DVRs (R10 and R15) and really don't have a big desire to keep accumulating...


----------



## Doug Brott

dantodd said:


> The Daytona 500 was on this week. I pay for Hot Pass and it is EXTREMELY frustrating to NOT have DLB. We watch the driver channel and try to keep track of what is happening in the network PIP. When something exciting happens in the race that is not near my racer I now miss the entire thing. In the past I used my R10 to keep the network feed on the second tuner and would just flip over and back up to the beginning of the segment.


Have you tried recording the races and flipping back and forth? That might work for you even though it is not quite as easy as the simple down arrow.



dantodd said:


> The lack of DLB severely limits my enjoyment of a service that I pay extra for on top of my normal subs. I wish that what DC_SnDvl said was true and a simple call to D* would get a second DVR. I need an HDMI switch anyway so it's not a big deal to have 2 HR's. But I already have 2 SD DVRs (R10 and R15) and really don't have a big desire to keep accumulating...


I'm not sure what offers may be available now. However, if you did get a new HR21, you don't necessarily have to keep the R10 or R15 active ..


----------



## dantodd

Doug Brott said:


> Have you tried recording the races and flipping back and forth? That might work for you even though it is not quite as easy as the simple down arrow.


Well, I have played a bit with the workaround but it isn't really a great solution. The fact that the race is 4 hours or so long doesn't help.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure what offers may be available now. However, if you did get a new HR21, you don't necessarily have to keep the R10 or R15 active ..


Well, I do still have 2 SD TVs that need DVRs! It's just that while 2 DVRs is a better workaround it's still a bit of overkill and just another piece of equipment for my AV shelves. That being said, if I knew it was available I'd probably call today. Though I'm not thrilled with having to add a $90 switch to add one more DVR.


----------



## Tom Robertson

dantodd,

If you go with the typical free install you won't have to pay for the switch. I have never paid for a switch, ever. (and I have had quite a few of them.)

Good luck,
Tom


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> Have you tried recording the races and flipping back and forth? That might work for you even though it is not quite as easy as the simple down arrow.


The problem with recording and watching two channels is that it pauses the channel you just flipped from - so you have to then ffw to catch back up with live TV every time you flip back and forth.


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> The problem with recording and watching two channels is that it pauses the channel you just flipped from - so you have to then ffw to catch back up with live TV every time you flip back and forth.


Yes, it is not perfect and I can see where that is a problem. However, that is the best we have at the moment.


----------



## Steve

raott said:


> The problem with recording and watching two channels is that it pauses the channel you just flipped from - so you have to then ffw to catch back up with live TV every time you flip back and forth.


Actually since you can't PREV between two recordings, one will be the LIVE BUFFER, which doesn't have to be paused if you want it to stay "live". /steve


----------



## raw121

DBSNewbie said:


> Because of no DLB, I had to use this workaround:


This is why there is no DLB. 
If they can get people to buy multiple receivers to approximate DLB, why ever implement it. :lol:


----------



## cadet502

Steve said:


> Actually since you can't PREV between two recordings, one will be the LIVE BUFFER, which doesn't have to be paused if you want it to stay "live". /steve


I'm not at home so I can't try it right now, but if you set two programs to record, but watch them from the "buffer" rather than the playlist, hitting prev will toggle the two channels without a pause. That is how I watched the race over the weekend with the Fox broadcast on one channel and a driver on the other.

The problem with this workaround is if you want to switch driver channels, you need to stop recording, change channels, start recording, then manually switch back to the other channel that is recording before you can use prev again. Kind of a PIA.


----------



## Steve

cadet502 said:


> I'm not at home so I can't try it right now, but if you set two programs to record, but watch them from the "buffer" rather than the playlist, hitting prev will toggle the two channels without a pause. That is how I watched the race over the weekend with the Fox broadcast on one channel and a driver on the other.
> 
> The problem with this workaround is if you want to switch driver channels, you need to stop recording, change channels, start recording, then manually switch back to the other channel that is recording before you can use prev again. Kind of a PIA.


I just tried it. You can PREV between two recordings by pressing RECORD on both and NOT playing them back from the PLAYLIST, but when you do it that way, there is no way to PAUSE either one of them, so you have to constantly REW after hitting PREV to find your last spot in that buffer. /steve


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Steve said:


> I just tried it. You can PREV between two recordings by pressing RECORD on both and NOT playing them back from the PLAYLIST, but when you do it that way, there is no way to PAUSE either one of them, so you have to constantly REW after hitting PREV to find your last spot in that buffer. /steve


You can pause the live buffer and watch a recording from the Playlist and it will hold the pause point when you press PREV to get back to the live buffer.

Mike


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> You can pause the live buffer and watch a recording from the Playlist and it will hold the pause point when you press PREV to get back to the live buffer.
> 
> Mike


Ya. The question a few posts back, tho, was how to simulate DLBs and stay current with LIVE TV on both buffers. Hitting RECORD on both and not PLAYING either from the PLAYLIST will keep you "live", but does not give you the ability to PAUSE either buffer if you wanted to. /steve


----------



## General Custer

So insiders, whats the status of DLB?

a) Not going to happen.
b) On the back burner (i.e. should arrive some time before they move on to the next new DVR project).
c) Coming to a DVR+ some time soon (this year).
d) No freakin idea.


----------



## Steve

General Custer said:


> So insiders, whats the status of DLB?
> 
> a) Not going to happen.
> b) On the back burner (i.e. should arrive some time before they move on to the next new DVR project).
> c) Coming to a DVR+ some time soon (this year).
> d) No freakin idea.


I'm not an "insider", but my guess is "c)", since the recent SLB PAUSE fix was an important first step to full DLBs. /steve


----------



## Stuart Sweet

e) Still being discussed.


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> e) Still being discussed.


aka "Stuck in committee."


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> aka "Stuck in committee."


Not being on any committee it's hard to say for certain ..


----------



## raott

Stuart Sweet said:


> e) Still being discussed.


Still being discussed, after over two years? Gosh, this isn't splitting atoms.

What is there to discuss? Competitors have it (cable, tivo, dish), D* doesn't. Those who benefit from it the most are their high dollar sports package customers.

We have asked and asked and asked- at what point does it sink in to them that this is something that they should do.


----------



## anubys

Doug Brott said:


> Not being on any committee it's hard to say for certain ..


I've been on tons of committees...you do know the definition of the word "committee", don't you?

"a group of people with the ability to make a decision more stupid than any one of its members" 

if DLB is in committee, we are likely to get it, but the screen will be pitch black so we can see the picture better...


----------



## jheda

Lets keep in mind, what other electronic product or utility would our voice even be heard? Keep this thread positive boys, keep it positive.....


----------



## raott

jheda said:


> Lets keep in mind, what other electronic product or utility would our voice even be heard? Keep this thread positive boys, keep it positive.....


I'd be more positive if after two years I had a bone thrown my way rather than the usual "still talking about it" or "they choose not to do it".

Note: that is not a criticism of the messenger, its a criticism of D* and their message.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

raott said:


> Note: that is not a criticism of the messenger, its a criticism of D* and their message.


Noted, and not taken as such.


----------



## jheda

All I mean, and perhaps as the eternal optimist, and WITH NO INSIDE INFO, I actually think IMHO that this new thread MIGHT be moving this from way way way outside the radar to just outside the radar. (I can hear the laughter in chicago all the way down here  )


raott said:


> I'd be more positive if after two years I had a bone thrown my way rather than the usual "still talking about it" or "they choose not to do it".
> 
> Note: that is not a criticism of the messenger, its a criticism of D* and their message.


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> All I mean, and perhaps as the eternal optimist, and WITH NO INSIDE INFO, I actually think IMHO that this new thread MIGHT be moving this from way way way outside the radar to just outside the radar. (I can hear the laughter in chicago all the way down here  )


I've dedicated as much resource as possible towards tracking this down ..


----------



## SAlBO

gotta love that pic Doug.......


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## Tom Robertson

jheda said:


> All I mean, and perhaps as the eternal optimist, and WITH NO INSIDE INFO, I actually think IMHO that this new thread MIGHT be moving this from way way way outside the radar to just outside the radar. (I can hear the laughter in chicago all the way down here  )


Perhaps one consideration is that at the time of HR20 launch, DLB was WAY WAY WAY outside, as of CES 2007 (last year) these discussions had moved DLB to WAY outside, and with this most recent poll (and other, more private discussions...) DLB is just outside.

(I do like your thinking on this!) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Didn't know there was so much sand up by your house


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> Didn't know there was so much sand up by your house


You should see the power bill .. :lol:


----------



## Drew2k

anubys said:


> I've been on tons of committees...you do know the definition of the word "committee", don't you?
> 
> "a group of people with the ability to make a decision more stupid than any one of its members"
> 
> if DLB is in committee, we are likely to get it, but the screen will be pitch black so we can see the picture better...


"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." <-- sign hanging near my cubicle at work.


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## jasonblair

I'd obviously like to have it, but I can't say I miss it because I've never had it. I've never used the "workaround" because it seems like too much of a hassle. I don't want to have to go in and delete a bunch of crap from my recorded list. So I don't consider the "workaround" as an adequate option.

So I guess the closest answer is "I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them."


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## boltjames

I had a dream last night. In it, I was totally happy, walking around naked with an HR20 in my arms. Appearing before me was a genie. The genie said "I can grant you one wish" and I said "can you bring DLB back to the D* DVR platform so that my friends on DBS can finally be as happy as I am?" The genie replied "sorry, they're not letting anyone do that."

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

jasonblair said:


> I'd obviously like to have it, but I can't say I miss it because I've never had it. I've never used the "workaround" because it seems like too much of a hassle. I don't want to have to go in and delete a bunch of crap from my recorded list. So I don't consider the "workaround" as an adequate option.
> 
> So I guess the closest answer is "I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them."


Actually having used it deleting the program at the completion of viewing is really not that bad .. When I was watching two NFL games this way last year I actually deleted the games half-way through and started over because I was getting tight on disk space at the time .. today would be much easier 

The biggest issue seems to be being able to keep both buffers playing .. pausing one and letting the other play works but that is not what is always desired .. and you have to decide which is "Live" and which is "Recorded" to get it to work properly.


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> I had a dream last night. In it, I was totally happy, walking around naked with an HR20 in my arms. Appearing before me was a genie. The genie said "I can grant you one wish" and I said "can you bring DLB back to the D* DVR platform so that my friends on DBS can finally be as happy as I am?" The genie replied "sorry, they're not letting anyone do that."
> 
> BJ


:nono2: .. you are a troubled man .. :grin:


----------



## Capt'n

Doug Brott said:


> Actually having used it deleting the program at the completion of viewing is really not that bad .. When I was watching two NFL games this way last year I actually deleted the games half-way through and started over because I was getting tight on disk space at the time .. today would be much easier
> 
> The biggest issue seems to be being able to keep both buffers playing .. pausing one and letting the other play works but that is not what is always desired .. and you have to decide which is "Live" and which is "Recorded" to get it to work properly.


The biggest issue for me is where the Prev button is on the remote. You either have to use two hands, or perform remote control gymnastics :jump3:


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## jheda

Doug Brott said:


> I've dedicated as much resource as possible towards tracking this down ..


Is that Earl fixing one of the wires?


----------



## jheda

Wow the below is fantastic. and thanks Dtv for not charging for this this year.
But I must ask, hw amazing would this be with DLB? I would pay 30-40 dollars for the 4 days if i had DLB... without it i would probably not subscribe.

Other thoughts *ASSUMING *you love the masters?

_DIRECTV to Offer Masters Golf On 4 HD Screens
Each screen will offer a different view of the action. 
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (February 21, 2008) -- DIRECTV has announced that it will broadcast coverage of the 2008 Masters Golf Tournament in April on four different High-Definition channels._

full article

Mod Edit: Copyright Violation


----------



## Dr. Booda

jheda said:


> Wow the below is fantastic. and thanks Dtv for not charging for this this year.
> But I must ask, hw amazing would this be with DLB? I would pay 30-40 dollars for the 4 days if i had DLB... without it i would probably not subscribe.


DLB is most needed for golf viewing; 15 seconds of action for a player followed by 10 minutes of walking around. I agree that having the network broadcast on one buffer and Amen Corner on the other would be fantastic.

Once again DirecTV shows leadership in their sports programming content while exhibiting idiocy in their HR2x feature set (no DLB).


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## Steve

Drew2k said:


> "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." <-- sign hanging near my cubicle at work.


Hmmm. Is there a reason it's hanging near _your _cubicle and not someone else's? :lol: /steve


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## Drew2k

Steve said:


> Hmmm. Is there a reason it's hanging near _your _cubicle and not someone else's? :lol: /steve


That one's easy ... there is someone who sits near me who is more _powerfu_l than me - in large groups, that is.


----------



## RCY

I fall somewhere between the "yes, want it" and "won't get one until it does" camp. The two features of our SD DirectTIVOs that my wife (who is not real tech savvy) loves the most are 30-second skip and DLB. She uses DLB a lot to switch between Game Show Network and anything else. I've now got two HDTVs, with the living room version using a HTPC w/BeyondTV for HD OTA content with our DirectTIVO for SD content. Since most of the big sporting events are carried on the OTA channels here (LA area), I haven't been in any hurry. Since 30 second skip is in the HR2X now, DLB would probably tip the balance and get me to make the move. So while it's not an absolute, getting DLB would probably remove the last obstacle to making the jump from our DTivos. (which have served us well for 3+ years)


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## jims

I would like to see a form of the dual live buffers introduced with a PiP feature. On two of our older receivers we have the DLB feature and though it isn't a deal breaker for getting new Directv equipment we definately feal that it is a good feature and I would like to see Directv try and improve on it.


----------



## Jhon69

jims said:


> I would like to see a form of the dual live buffers introduced with a PiP feature. On two of our older receivers we have the DLB feature and though it isn't a deal breaker for getting new Directv equipment we definately feal that it is a good feature and I would like to see Directv try and improve on it.


If that's what you want has Dish got a DVR for you!.


----------



## Steve

jims said:


> I would like to see a form of the dual live buffers introduced with a PiP feature. On two of our older receivers we have the DLB feature and though it isn't a deal breaker for getting new Directv equipment we definately feal that it is a good feature and I would like to see Directv try and improve on it.


It's not out of the realm of possibility. The Tandberg MPEG-4 encoders that DirecTV uses have the capability to simultaneously transcode a second "low-res" AVI-like stream of the same video data, suitable for PIP-sized display.

Whether or not there is transmission bandwidth available to handle the extra stream (you'd need one for every channel) or if the HR2x's can be retrofitted to receive and display such a stream to a PIP window is another story. /steve


----------



## jims

I've been with Directv since 95 and like a lot of the other services that Directv has. 

To me it seems that they already have the backend code in the HR2x receivers because of the way they show the mini picture in the setup and guide menus. If they got DLB working then it should be possible to have PiP.


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## Steve

jims said:


> I've been with Directv since 95 and like a lot of the other services that Directv has.
> 
> To me it seems that they already have the backend code in the HR2x receivers because of the way they show the mini picture in the setup and guide menus. If they got DLB working then it should be possible to have PiP.


Ya, tho in the case of PIG/PIL, they're not outputting a "second" live stream of video, just down-rezzing the first. That being said, your point is well-taken. /steve


----------



## Richierich

I have a fairly expensive HD LCD Display device which displays 1080P. Why would I want to view downrezzed picture in PIP??? Isn't the reason I paid Big Bucks for this display was to see great HD???

I must be missing something.


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## Tom Robertson

The PIP window is by its very nature a downsized and therefore downrezzed picture inserted into the whole data stream. It must be scaled to the size of the smaller window.

The larger picture is typically still the same size and resolution as normal. (Except in side by side, when both images are downsized and downrezzed a bit.)

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott

Yeah, it's kinda tough to cram all those pixels into the smaller window ..


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## Richierich

I was talking about a Split Screen Side By Side PIP.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having high def???


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## starbiker99

The wife gave me another reason she wants her DLB back. She was watching Lipstick Jungle last night and our son came down for his nightly snack and the screen was filled with $-x and she wanted to quick flip away while he was in the room but she didn't want to loose the buffer. I tried to show her the work around and that just made her madder. She said this new DVR is barely good enough for ONE show at a time.


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## Doug Brott

starbiker99 said:


> The wife gave me another reason she wants her DLB back. She was watching Lipstick Jungle last night and our son came down for his nightly snack and the screen was filled with $-x and she wanted to quick flip away while he was in the room but she didn't want to loose the buffer. I tried to show her the work around and that just made her madder. She said this new DVR is barely good enough for ONE show at a time.


Understandable, and the workaround might not be effective in these "emergency" situations. My solution in the case you have described is to press pause and power off the TV quickly . Not perfect by any means.


----------



## inkahauts

starbiker99 said:


> The wife gave me another reason she wants her DLB back. She was watching Lipstick Jungle last night and our son came down for his nightly snack and the screen was filled with $-x and she wanted to quick flip away while he was in the room but she didn't want to loose the buffer. I tried to show her the work around and that just made her madder. She said this new DVR is barely good enough for ONE show at a time.


I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


----------



## anubys

I have a simpler question: why couldn't she just pause the show?


----------



## Dr. Booda

inkahauts said:


> I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


I don't understand why someone would record a program if they just happen to have free time when it is normally on and can view it live. DLB allowed one to skip over the commercials easily while watching two desired programs simultaneously. DVRs were made to record programs when one doesn't have the time, not to eliminate almost all live TV viewing.


----------



## mikewolf13

inkahauts said:


> I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


There are a handful of shows I enjot, that I don't/can't wait to watch like "Lost" So I generally am wathcing at or close to LIVE TV.

You can time shift your shows and still watch them while utilizing the buffer..i often watch shows 20-30 mintues late, so i can skip commercials but still see them before bedtime and not have to shut my ears while my co-workers talk about some shows.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dr. Booda said:


> I don't understand why someone would record a program if they just happen to have free time when it is normally on and can view it live. DLB allowed one to skip over the commercials easily while watching two desired programs simultaneously. DVRs were made to record programs when one doesn't have the time, not to eliminate almost all live TV viewing.


While I completely agree that a great DVR is a live viewing enhancement, I also appreciate the use of recording things you are interested in watching for the "just in case" situations like this. Or to prevent someone bumping the remote and flushing the buffer. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## btmoore

inkahauts said:


> I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


Because, we are unique people with different needs. What you describe is how you think you should be using a DVR. I would think by know it is clear that there are lots of other way folks are using DVRs, perhaps you are in denial of this?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Dr. Booda said:


> I don't understand why someone would record a program if they just happen to have free time when it is normally on and can view it live. DLB allowed one to skip over the commercials easily while watching two desired programs simultaneously. *DVRs were made to record programs when one doesn't have the time, not to eliminate almost all live TV viewing*.


That's an awful narrow idea of what a DVR is for, and one I beg to disagree with. A DVR was made to enhance one's TV experience. Recording shows when you're not around is certainly one part of that. Time shifting is equally important aspect of the DVR, IMHO. Watching live TV, and utilitizing DLB, falls third on the list, again just my opinion.

Got kids?

We record EVERYTHING we watch, because one never knows when a "poop disaster" might come up, or any other number of "disasters".

If we're watching "live", we time shift at least 20 minutes, and we record it all just in case. If we get to watch the whole show in one sitting, we simply delete it. If for some reason we can't finish the show, it's saved on our DVR.

There aren't many shows though that we watch "live"... most sitcoms we watch the following day, so we can start our "primetime" shows at 6:00 and be done by 8:00 instead of watching from 8:00 - 10:00. At 8, we watch 1 kids show, start reading stories and get the kids to bed. Then, depending on how we feel, we may or may not watch another grown up show after the kids are in bed.

So for us, recording when we're away is a minor part of what a DVR is for.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And may I remind you all, that's what makes this forum so great... different people with different needs finding different solutions and sharing them.


----------



## ceored

inkahauts said:


> I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


You don't understand because you watch TV differently than me, we all use the features a little differently. D* took away the convenience that DLB afforded me and many others. We enjoy power channel surfing live TV, a true American tradition. It's how I and many others choose to use our property.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Stuart Sweet said:


> And may I remind you all, that's what makes this forum so great... different people with different needs finding different solutions and sharing them.


Absolutely, Stuart. It's also what makes the DVR in general so great. All of us use it differently in the manner that best suits our needs.


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> I guess I still don't understand why anyone watches live tv if its not sports or news.... Either way, if you set up your HR20 to record everything you watch, she could have changed channels quickly, and then come back to it after he left the room... I haven't watched non sports or news live since I got my first DVR, 6 years ago.... Its what DVRs are made for, time shifting your shows....


Because for many people, they enjoy watching the show when it comes on, or the show is on at the most convenient time. PTI is on at 5:30, I watch it at 5:30 because I know I won't be able to watch it later in the day.

My wife often wants to watch shows when they come on, especially shows that are on at 10 or after, not wait til the next day, not record and watch it at 11.

People watch TV in many different ways, unfortunately, D*'s shortsighted decision on DLBs, instead of making viewing easier, has made that more difficult, not easier - you would think the opposite would be the case with new a new line of DVRs, but thats what happens when homework isn't done upfront.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Sharkie_Fan said:


> That's an awful narrow idea of what a DVR is for, and one I beg to disagree with. A DVR was made to enhance one's TV experience. Recording shows when you're not around is certainly one part of that. Time shifting is equally important aspect of the DVR, IMHO. Watching live TV, and utilitizing DLB, falls third on the list, again just my opinion.
> 
> Got kids?
> 
> We record EVERYTHING we watch, because one never knows when a "poop disaster" might come up, or any other number of "disasters".
> 
> If we're watching "live", we time shift at least 20 minutes, and we record it all just in case. If we get to watch the whole show in one sitting, we simply delete it. If for some reason we can't finish the show, it's saved on our DVR.
> 
> There aren't many shows though that we watch "live"... most sitcoms we watch the following day, so we can start our "primetime" shows at 6:00 and be done by 8:00 instead of watching from 8:00 - 10:00. At 8, we watch 1 kids show, start reading stories and get the kids to bed. Then, depending on how we feel, we may or may not watch another grown up show after the kids are in bed.
> 
> So for us, recording when we're away is a minor part of what a DVR is for.


Did I mention anything about being away in my "narrow idea"? I stated that DVR's are for recording programs when one doesn't have the time to watch live TV. Being present in the house dealing with kids qualifies as not having the time.

My point is that some people watch live TV for things other than sports and news because they enjoy watching things live. I think that DirecTV shares the narrow view that no one watches live TV anymore; a view that is not true for all users. I'll bet that we all have parents or other older acquaintances that never record anything (or set their VCR clock) because they prefer it. I recommended an LG HDTV to my in-laws that had a built in DVR for their Comcast service. They love the TV, but never use the DVR part of it. They just spend their retirement watching whatever programs they want to at night live.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Dr. Booda said:


> Did I mention anything about being away in my "narrow idea"? I stated that DVR's are for recording programs when one doesn't have the time to watch live TV. Being present in the house dealing with kids qualifies as not having the time.
> 
> My point is that some people watch live TV for things other than sports and news because they enjoy watching things live. I think that DirecTV shares the narrow view that no one watches live TV anymore; a view that is not true for all users. I'll bet that we all have parents or other older acquaintances that never record anything (or set their VCR clock) because they prefer it. I recommended an LG HDTV to my in-laws that had a built in DVR for their Comcast service. They love the TV, but never use the DVR part of it. They just spend their retirement watching whatever programs they want to at night live.


I'm not suggesting that no one watches live tv, nor am I suggesting that your use of the DVR is wrong.

My comments were directed towards specifically towards the comment "WHy would you record TV when you're around to watch it, that's not what a DVR was made for".

The point being, the DVR was made for a much, much broader purpose than that. You use it differently than I do, as does the next guy and the guy after that. It doesn't mean that one of us isn't using the DVR for "what it was made for"... just that we're using it differently.

That's the point I was trying to make in labelling your view "narrow"... We all use it differently, so to suggest one isn't using it for what it's *made for* is what I took exception to... not your usage patterns, or the thought that people would watch TV live.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I'm not suggesting that no one watches live tv, nor am I suggesting that your use of the DVR is wrong.
> 
> My comments were directed towards specifically towards the comment "WHy would you record TV when you're around to watch it, that's not what a DVR was made for".
> 
> The point being, the DVR was made for a much, much broader purpose than that. You use it differently than I do, as does the next guy and the guy after that. It doesn't mean that one of us isn't using the DVR for "what it was made for"... just that we're using it differently.
> 
> That's the point I was trying to make in labelling your view "narrow"... We all use it differently, so to suggest one isn't using it for what it's *made for* is what I took exception to... not your usage patterns, or the thought that people would watch TV live.


Understood. My original post was in response to that DVR's are made for time shifting shows. I don't think that there is disagreement here; I wish DirecTV would realize the same wisdom espoused on DBSTalk with regards to viewing habits.


----------



## ATARI

raott said:


> People watch TV in many different ways, unfortunately, D*'s shortsighted decision on DLBs, instead of making viewing easier, has made that more difficult, not easier - you would think the opposite would be the case with new a new line of DVRs, but thats what happens when homework isn't done upfront.


That sums up the DLB bug very well --> D* has consciously decided to make viewing more difficult.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ATARI said:


> That sums up the DLB bug very well --> D* has consciously decided to make viewing more difficult.


OR... maybe DirecTV has consciously decided to make viewing ONE channel EASIER... 

DirecTV knows that you REALLY only want to watch ONE program at a time... you just haven't realized it yet! 

(sorry.... I couldn't resist. Though, I am feeling the pull of the dark side... the more you guys talk about DLB, the more I think about how I could use it.)


----------



## dennisj00

Bing! Bing! Bing! We have several winners in the last couple of pages!!!!

There ARE MANY different ways to use a DVR!!! and DLB can augment the viewing experience in MANY different ways! or you may not want to use it at all.

I've said it before - and I'll say it again! Just give us a way to get to the second tuner - even with a small(er) buffer - without flushing either or going through some contorted record sequence. It has MANY uses!!

It can't be that difficult -- and I can't imagine the coming feature that has delayed DLB for years??!!

Any more hints?


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> I've said it before - and I'll say it again! Just give us a way to get to the second tuner - even with a small(er) buffer - without flushing either or going through some contorted record sequence. It has MANY uses!!


Well, there is "A" way .. perhaps it's not "THE" way, though.


----------



## Que

Doug Brott said:


> Well, there is "A" way .. perhaps it's not "THE" way, though.


They should "JUST DO IT!" just like every other update. Throw it out there and fix what it breaks later.


----------



## dctoney

I use the DLB feature so much (sporting events, watching two shows live at the same time) that I actually still prefer to watch most TV on my old standard definition with TiVO. The upgraded workaround is completely inefficient since you ultimately have to delete that recording and while the life buffer is paused, it returns back in Play mode when switching which is very confusing. I don't even want to go into a discussion of how I can actually watch three live shows or games at the same time using DLBs and the go-back button.


----------



## dctoney

It does not require the same amount of time. You can actually watch two 1 hour shows in about 1 hour and 15 minutes. It is not just for sports. I often watch two network news shows at the same time flipping back and forth between them as commericals appear. If you're confused by that, I want even worry you further by discussing how you can actually watch three shows at the same time using DLB and another remote control button


----------



## Tom Robertson

dctoney,

Three at one time pushes even my ADD brain.  (Mostly because I'm also at the laptop the whole time.) 

My hope is both of our needs for DLB are satisfied. At least before NFL season starts.  (No this is not a hint! It is my personal hope and does not reflect any details from DIRECTV, Earl, or Smiddy.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jheda

iF DLB is implimented by football season, i will buy the package...


----------



## Capt'n

For me it's more like...If DLB is implemented by football season, I won't cancel the package.


----------



## Doug Brott

I'll be there either way .. Can't watch my teams without the package.


----------



## jheda

I agree doug when its your out of town team you get the package...and watch your team... when you are getting it to watch multiple games, the argument that DLB makes the package worthwhile becomes very plausible.

QUOTE=Doug Brott;1471264]I'll be there either way .. Can't watch my teams without the package.[/QUOTE]


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## anubys

this past football season, I had two DVRs running on the same TV (HR10 and HR20)...so I had 4 buffers going at once...I'll never go back to only two


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## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. * 66 7.88% *
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 136 16.23% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 79 9.43% *
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 526 62.77%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit.* 31 3.70% *
Voters: *838*

Replies * 690 *
Views *17,623 *


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## ToddinVA

My sister reiterated again this week that she really likes the new DLB feature on the Cox DVR she recently upgraded to from her old S2 TiVo. She likes the TiVo interface better, but she utilizes DLB a lot. She may not drive a Camry, but she does drive a Sienna, Bolt....


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## sraider

I never used DLB that much on the old tivos but my wife won't let me get rid of the HR10-250 until the new ones have DLB


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## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> My sister reiterated again this week that she really likes the new DLB feature on the Cox DVR she recently upgraded to from her old S2 TiVo. She likes the TiVo interface better, but she utilizes DLB a lot. She may not drive a Camry, but she does drive a Sienna, Bolt....


Only those that have owned a Tivo even know what DLB is, and they might miss it. Anyone that never owned a Tivo have no clue and are perfectly happy without it.

The Sony Betamax had several great features that VHS lacked, but only the Betamax people were upset by the VHS feature omissions; everyone else was thrilled with the long recording times and the low prices.

BJ


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## James Long

boltjames said:


> Only those that have owned a Tivo even know what DLB is, and they might miss it.


Actually, those who have had a DISH Network ViP-622 DVR would have had DLB. I understand there might be a few of those people looking at their DirecTV DVRs and wondering what's up with them.


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> Only those that have owned a Tivo even know what DLB is, and they might miss it.
> 
> BJ


Is that right? Any cable company with the Moto 6412/6416 with i-guide (ie comcast and insight among others) has DLBs, and DLBs is clearly indicated in the manual for the 6412/6416 as a feature. (I have posted the manual for the i-guide here a couple of times, do a search).

Dish has DLBs and, I also read that fios has also added DLBs.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Only those that have owned a Tivo even know what DLB is, and they might miss it. Anyone that never owned a Tivo have no clue and are perfectly happy without it.
> BJ


Umm, she had a Series 2 TiVo that only had ONE tuner/buffer. She hadn't used DLB before and I hadn't told her about it. She didn't know the precise name of it, but likes it. Why is that so freaking hard for you to accept? And BTW, as has been stated over and over again, almost ALL non-TiVo dual tuner DVR's have DLB as well. So your argument falls flat across the board on every level.


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> Umm, she had a Series 2 TiVo that only had ONE tuner/buffer. She hadn't used DLB before and I hadn't told her about it. She didn't know the precise name of it, but likes it. Why is that so freaking hard for you to accept? And BTW, as has been stated over and over again, almost ALL non-TiVo dual tuner DVR's have DLB as well. So your argument falls flat across the board on every level.


Again, please remember that we're talking about Mr. & Mrs. Camry here. The people who never read the owners manual, who couldn't figure out how to use the record function on their VCR's, and who left the clock blinking on "12:00" from 1983 to 2007.

Their Comcast DVR's may have DLB but they don't know that. And that's the point.

The HR10 was a rich-man-gearhead's plaything. A $1,000 DVR for the miniscule fraction of the population that had an HDTV back in 2005. It's 2008, everyone's going HD, and the HR20 is the every-man's set top box.

That's the issue right there, the issue that DLB'ers just can't grasp. The HR20 isn't designed for _you_. DirecTV doesn't care about _you _anymore. The videophile gearhead audience is fractional. They want a significantly bigger piece of the pie. You're fliet mignon; they want Whopper®.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Again, please remember that we're talking about Mr. & Mrs. Camry here. The people who never read the owners manual, who couldn't figure out how to use the record function on their VCR's, and who left the clock blinking on "12:00" from 1983 to 2007.
> 
> Their Comcast DVR's may have DLB but they don't know that. And that's the point.
> 
> The HR10 was a rich-man-gearhead's plaything. A $1,000 DVR for the miniscule fraction of the population that had an HDTV back in 2005. It's 2008, everyone's going HD, and the HR20 is the every-man's set top box.
> 
> That's the issue right there, the issue that DLB'ers just can't grasp. The HR20 isn't designed for _you_. DirecTV doesn't care about _you _anymore. The videophile gearhead audience is fractional. They want a significantly bigger piece of the pie. You're fliet mignon; they want Whopperr.
> 
> BJ


I have to disagree with you.

I don't think I know anyone who can't set the clock on their VCR. Even my parents, as well as my in laws, are pros at recording shows these days. And I know two guys who would think it's a hoot to be classified as a "rich-man-gearhead". :grin:

As for other DVRs, someone new to a DVR doesn't have to read the manual to find out that they can watch two live shows at once. It's in the quick start guides for most of the these units. Almost none of them have any idea what the heck a *DLB* is but most know they can do it. My father-in-law uses it for sports. Trust me, he is one of the lest tech savy people you will ever meet. However, he found it in the quick start pamphlet and since it isn't really rocket science he uses it. 

It isn't that "DLB'ers" can't grasp the point.

This is a discussion thread for *DLB* so we discuss *DLB*. It's a simple as that.

As far as discussing *DLB*, I kinda resent the fact that you think I shouldn't be able to. I should be able to beat that horse until the stick breaks....then get another stick...within the rules/guidelines of the forum of course. :beatdeadhorse:

Mike


----------



## raott

boltjames said:


> Their Comcast DVR's may have DLB but they don't know that. And that's the point.
> 
> BJ


They do know it, as I stated before and I'll state again, it is clearly indicated in the i-guide manual as a feature - there is a button on the remote called "swap" which is dedicated to DLBs.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Again, please remember that we're talking about Mr. & Mrs. Camry here. The people who never read the owners manual, who couldn't figure out how to use the record function on their VCR's, and who left the clock blinking on "12:00" from 1983 to 2007.
> 
> Their Comcast DVR's may have DLB but they don't know that. And that's the point.
> 
> The HR10 was a rich-man-gearhead's plaything. A $1,000 DVR for the miniscule fraction of the population that had an HDTV back in 2005. It's 2008, everyone's going HD, and the HR20 is the every-man's set top box.
> 
> That's the issue right there, the issue that DLB'ers just can't grasp. The HR20 isn't designed for _you_. DirecTV doesn't care about _you _anymore. The videophile gearhead audience is fractional. They want a significantly bigger piece of the pie. You're fliet mignon; they want Whopper®.
> 
> BJ


Dude, at least pay attention to my points. With regards to what I posted, your responses make absolutely no sense. :nono:


----------



## Richierich

boltjames said:


> That's the issue right there, the issue that DLB'ers just can't grasp. The HR20 isn't designed for _you_. DirecTV doesn't care about _you _anymore.
> BJ


DIRECTV doesn't CARE about me anymore??? I am crushed!!! I thought we had a great ongoing relationship. Directv, how could you be so fickle after all the money I have given you??? I WANT MY DLB and I WANT IT NOW!!!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

raott said:


> They do know it, as I stated before and I'll state again, it is clearly indicated in the i-guide manual as a feature - there is a button on the remote called "swap" which is dedicated to DLBs.


Just curious, is that "swap" button for the PIP screens, or actually for the DLB?

Thanks


----------



## raott

theratpatrol said:


> Just curious, is that "swap" button for the PIP screens, or actually for the DLB?
> 
> Thanks


I'm not sure what it does if you are using PIP. I used the 6416 over the summer when we lived at a place temporarily while our house was being built - so I no longer have access to one.

The info for the DLB is here (the guide may say something about PIP as well, I have not been through it to see):

http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf

"Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner. The SWAP feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
• You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
• Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
Note: The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs. If you change channels without using the SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


----------



## Green23

raott said:


> "Because your DVR has two tuners, it can buffer two programs at the same time - one on each tuner. The SWAP feature lets you toggle back and forth between the two live shows while giving you full control of both.
> While you are tuned to a program, press the SWAP button on your remote.
> • You will change tuners.Now you can select an alternate program by changing channels or using the Guide.
> • Press SWAP again to toggle between the two programs.
> Note: The SWAP button is the key to keeping the buffer for both programs. If you change channels without using the SWAP key, you will lose the buffer."


Sure wish we had this control back with D*- Can't understand why someone would consider this undesirable...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Green23 said:


> Sure wish we had this control back with D*- Can't understand why someone would consider this undesirable...


This is just my opinion but I don't think Directv considered it undesirable.

I think it conflicts with or takes resources from and existing/future feature. They had to make a choice and *DLB* lost out.

It's a theory....

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Too BAD that Directv doesn't let us know why they can't or won't do DLB!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Every so often, Earl and I post some of the reasons why DLB is not in the DVR+ line--today...

1) As a brand new line of receivers, version had to have certain features first. DLB was not on that first cut of features.
2) After that, feature selection is based on many factors: upcoming TV programming requirements (support for new ideas for hotpass, MLB, NFL, etc.); pre-requisite coding under the covers; revenue making requirements; investor promises; software development team availability (with many teams, sometimes a feature waits until all the teams finish their parts)
3) DIRECTV has heretofore felt they have features we'll love even more first. They are in progress and sound cool. 
4) making SLB very, very solid. Raising twins is not twice the work of raising a single infant--it's closer to quadruple. Similarly, I bet any SLB issue that is outstanding is quadruple the magnitude in a DLB environment. 
5) resolving all the logistics and interactions between features that use the resources within the DVR: tuners, memory, disk, cpu, processes, scheduling, etc. Think about all the features that do or will use tuners for a moment: Guide, recordings, SLB, showcases, pushed DoD, channel mapping updates, weather and other interactive content, etc.

Richierich, one reason we won't see specific "this is why you do not have DLB" is that reason is not just one "permanent reason" but a normal shifting of the requirements and development resources as features are released and stabilized.

Can I say definitely DLB will be here? No. As I said, things are always in flux.

I can say that I believe DLB will be here. And thinking positively, trying to attract a future of my choice, DLB will be here and solid before the NFL season starts up again.  (That is a personal hope, prayer, and attempt at thinking positively, not a hint.)

Cheers,
Tom

All this very definitely can be worked out in a reasonable fashion. And DIRECTV has not taken DLB off the table. They very definitely listen to us.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Thaedron

Tom Robertson said:


> Every so often, Earl and I post some of the reasons why DLB is not in the DVR+ line--today...
> 
> <list of rationale removed for brevity>
> 
> Richierich, one reason we won't see specific "this is why you do not have DLB" is that reason is not just one "permanent reason" but a normal shifting of the requirements and development resources as features are released and stabilized.
> 
> Can I say definitely DLB will be here? No. As I said, things are always in flux.
> 
> I can say that I believe DLB will be here. And thinking positively, trying to attract a future of my choice, DLB will be here and solid before the NFL season starts up again.  (That is a personal hope, prayer, and attempt at thinking positively, not a hint.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> All this very definitely can be worked out in a reasonable fashion. And DIRECTV has not taken DLB off the table. They very definitely listen to us.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I work in the IT / software development industry and I agree with all of the very logical rationale that you outlined, however, just to play devil's advocate for a minute... Sometimes the problem of adding a feature such as DLB might become technologically very difficult if it is added at the end once the underlying single (SLB) feature set is fully developed. The added complexity of course may not fully materialze if indeed DLB was part of the general design all along and no design decisions were made to make the eventual DLB development more difficult.

Or more simply... sometimes you just can't do it unless you designed it in from the start, or you start over from scratch.

Hopefully that's not the case for DLB on the DirecTV DVR platform. But for me personally, can we please have MRV soon?


----------



## Que

raott said:


> Is that right? Any cable company with the Moto 6412/6416 with i-guide (ie comcast and insight among others) has DLBs, and DLBs is clearly indicated in the manual for the 6412/6416 as a feature. (I have posted the manual for the i-guide here a couple of times, do a search).
> 
> Dish has DLBs and, I also read that fios has also added DLBs.


Again it's not just TiVo that has DLB.

List of DVR with DLB.

TIVO line.
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

I think DirecTV plus line is the only one without DLB.


----------



## puffnstuff

Tom Robertson said:


> Every so often, Earl and I post some of the reasons why DLB is not in the DVR+ line--today...
> 
> 1) As a brand new line of receivers, version had to have certain features first. DLB was not on that first cut of features.
> 2) After that, feature selection is based on many factors: upcoming TV programming requirements (support for new ideas for hotpass, MLB, NFL, etc.); pre-requisite coding under the covers; revenue making requirements; investor promises; software development team availability (with many teams, sometimes a feature waits until all the teams finish their parts)
> 3) DIRECTV has heretofore felt they have features we'll love even more first. They are in progress and sound cool.
> 4) making SLB very, very solid. Raising twins is not twice the work of raising a single infant--it's closer to quadruple. Similarly, I bet any SLB issue that is outstanding is quadruple the magnitude in a DLB environment.
> 5) resolving all the logistics and interactions between features that use the resources within the DVR: tuners, memory, disk, cpu, processes, scheduling, etc. Think about all the features that do or will use tuners for a moment: Guide, recordings, SLB, showcases, pushed DoD, channel mapping updates, weather and other interactive content, etc.
> 
> Richierich, one reason we won't see specific "this is why you do not have DLB" is that reason is not just one "permanent reason" but a normal shifting of the requirements and development resources as features are released and stabilized.
> 
> Can I say definitely DLB will be here? No. As I said, things are always in flux.
> 
> I can say that I believe DLB will be here. And thinking positively, trying to attract a future of my choice, DLB will be here and solid before the NFL season starts up again.  (That is a personal hope, prayer, and attempt at thinking positively, not a hint.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> All this very definitely can be worked out in a reasonable fashion. And DIRECTV has not taken DLB off the table. They very definitely listen to us.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have asked before but just want to make sure ( Inever got an answer ) . Are they planning on pushing DOD on the second tuner ? If so I will be real pissed that is the reason for no DLB .


----------



## Stuart Sweet

As Tom said, their reasoning is constantly changing. One thing you can be sure of is that some very powerful people read this thread and are aware of your desire for this feature.


----------



## Tom Robertson

puffnstuff said:


> I have asked before but just want to make sure ( Inever got an answer ) . Are they planning on pushing DOD on the second tuner ? If so I will be real pissed that is the reason for no DLB .


My guess is that DoD does need to use the second tuner, unless they figure out a way to intermingle guide and DoD on the third tuner.

That said, recall my postscript: "All this very definitely can be worked out..." 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SAlBO

"Daddy, are we there yet ?"..... hehe

I also feel it will be implemented but it most likely wont be fast enough for some of us. I think D* has their schedule of features laid out and the time frames they plan to implement each one and are going by it as closely as possible but as Tom said in different words "things happen". When they do D* has to be flexible in order to keep us with a solid SLB or all of us would be screaming.....I believe our patience will be rewarded


----------



## jheda

Tom Robertson said:


> Every so often, Earl and I post some of the reasons why DLB is not in the DVR+ line--today...
> 
> 1) As a brand new line of receivers, version had to have certain features first. DLB was not on that first cut of features.
> 2) After that, feature selection is based on many factors: upcoming TV programming requirements (support for new ideas for hotpass, MLB, NFL, etc.); pre-requisite coding under the covers; revenue making requirements; investor promises; software development team availability (with many teams, sometimes a feature waits until all the teams finish their parts)
> 3) DIRECTV has heretofore felt they have features we'll love even more first. They are in progress and sound cool.
> 4) making SLB very, very solid. Raising twins is not twice the work of raising a single infant--it's closer to quadruple. Similarly, I bet any SLB issue that is outstanding is quadruple the magnitude in a DLB environment.
> 5) resolving all the logistics and interactions between features that use the resources within the DVR: tuners, memory, disk, cpu, processes, scheduling, etc. Think about all the features that do or will use tuners for a moment: Guide, recordings, SLB, showcases, pushed DoD, channel mapping updates, weather and other interactive content, etc.
> 
> Richierich, one reason we won't see specific "this is why you do not have DLB" is that reason is not just one "permanent reason" but a normal shifting of the requirements and development resources as features are released and stabilized.
> 
> Can I say definitely DLB will be here? No. As I said, things are always in flux.
> 
> I can say that I believe DLB will be here. And thinking positively, trying to attract a future of my choice, DLB will be here and solid before the NFL season starts up again.  (That is a personal hope, prayer, and attempt at thinking positively, not a hint.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> All this very definitely can be worked out in a reasonable fashion. And DIRECTV has not taken DLB off the table. They very definitely listen to us.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tibber, I want to thank you for the most thorugh response to this issue to date. I have to believe, knowing what a selling point DLB is for the very lucrative season passes, that they maintain it on the radar...


----------



## Capt'n

It seems like the ground work for DLB is already there. The only difference I see between the buffer and a recording is the recording gets saved and the buffer doesn't. Take the current "work around", don't save it as a recording, and you have DLB. They already added the "keep pause" function. Now all we need is a button to go back and forth. Doesn't "seem" very difficult to do. The only thing I would consider as an acceptable reason to wait on this, is if they do some type of split screen where you can watch both tuners on the same screen at the same time. Dual tuner PIP from one video source on any TV would be sweet. DLB would of course be needed for this.


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> Again it's not just TiVo that has DLB.
> 
> List of DVR with DLB.
> 
> TIVO line.
> AT&T Homezone DVR
> Dish Network - ViP622
> Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 
> I think DirecTV plus line is the only one without DLB.


Correct, and what does that tell you?

If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.

The elimination of DLB is the wave of the future; don't blame D* because they figured it out first. All these other providers will learn from this and eliminate DLB too. Years ago, all phone manufacturers felt that the rotary dial was the best solution to make a call. When the push button came out, all the RD people screamed "we want RD back!" but ultimately came to realize that PBD was the better solution. You don't hear from those RD people any more. They were never part of PBD nation. They all died. Just like DLB.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Correct, and what does that tell you?
> 
> If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.


ROTFLMAO!! :lol:


----------



## General Custer

boltjames said:


> Correct, and what does that tell you?
> 
> If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.
> 
> The elimination of DLB is the wave of the future; don't blame D* because they figured it out first. All these other providers will learn from this and eliminate DLB too. Years ago, all phone manufacturers felt that the rotary dial was the best solution to make a call. When the push button came out, all the RD people screamed "we want RD back!" but ultimately came to realize that PBD was the better solution. You don't hear from those RD people any more. They were never part of PBD nation. They all died. Just like DLB.
> 
> BJ


You're assuming that the Directv HD DVR is best in class. That is a major assumption. It is a good box but on the software side many think its a step back from the HD TIVO. My wife constantly curses the way many of the menus and button press schemes on this box work and constantly asks why we needed to "upgrade."

To say that DLB holds back other boxes is very naive. It absolutely is not the wave of the future. Directv misjudged how near and dear this feature is to their high end sports junkies and are likely scrambling to come up with a fix.

If everything was equal with regards to HD content and Sunday Ticket you'd see how many defections would occur. Or if Directv were forced to open up their receiver market a la cable card, a new HD DirecTIVO would totally outsell err out lease the DVR+ to many on this site.


----------



## kanderna

boltjames said:


> Correct, and what does that tell you?
> 
> If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.
> 
> BJ


WOW! Worst...logic....ever. :nono2: I'll assume you're just making stuff up now for your own amusement.


----------



## jahgreen

I see we have some newbies who don't know boltjames.

Soon they will lose their innocence.


----------



## Just Ask

I miss my HR10-250's. One of the major reasons was the DLB and the fact that it worked 99.9% of the time.


----------



## kanderna

jahgreen said:


> I see we have some newbies who don't know boltjames.
> 
> Soon they will lose their innocence.


That was probably directed at me, but trust me... I know all too well the rants and incoherent babbling. I've been monitoring this thread (and the old one) since day one. I've often wanted to post responses, but didn't want to make it feel more important than it was. The last post was just overly ridiculous (not that the others aren't).


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Correct, and what does that tell you?
> 
> If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.
> 
> The elimination of DLB is the wave of the future; don't blame D* because they figured it out first. All these other providers will learn from this and eliminate DLB too. Years ago, all phone manufacturers felt that the rotary dial was the best solution to make a call. When the push button came out, all the RD people screamed "we want RD back!" but ultimately came to realize that PBD was the better solution. You don't hear from those RD people any more. They were never part of PBD nation. They all died. Just like DLB.
> 
> BJ


DirecTV's service and set-top box are best in class? Based upon what criteria? Having lots of HD stations doesn't make one "best in class". If a carrier supplies the stations that a customer wants (say only 15 stations), then that customer is happy. If a set-top box supplies the required features (DLB) to allow for satisfactory viewing, then the customer likes the box. I agree that DirecTV has the best sports subscription choices (the reason why I chose DirecTV over 10 years ago), so why do they continue to deny their most revenue generating customers a feature that makes them happy and loyal?


----------



## dennisj00

By BJ's logic (and self-amusement) DTv will have us throwing our remotes into the fire! Wouldn't it be nice to sit next to the TV and change channels -- like I did for the family when I was growing up!

And channels? We don't need no stinkin' channels. DTv can give us 3 channels like we had 40+ years ago and we'll ALL be HAPPY! (Maybe only 1 in HD!)

Much easier to change channels and NO need for DLB!!

What a croc of . . . .

If I recall, LOTS of people didn't convert to TD until the phone company (the ONLY source) quit charging $1 a month for pulse!!


----------



## MountainMan10

I miss RD. I had a phone with a worn out touch pad. Couldn't TD with it. But if you had rythm you could click the button that hung up the phone to simulate PD. Only problem was if you had a few beers you couldn't call a cab.:lol: 

Maybe D* just wants us all to buy multiple DVRs? With two DVRs and PIP in my TV it would be better than DLB.

I wish they would add DLB and add the ability to play the two buffers to different outputs. One channel on HDMI and a second on Component, or one one each composite depending on the DVR model.

This is something I wanted to have on my TIVO also. I have had TVs with PIP as long as I have had DTV, and I have never used it. The only thing I can do with it is swap between DTV and OTA plugged directly into the TV.

Could the hardware handle recording two shows, playing back two shows, downloading a DOD and serving a show over the network to MRV? With the speed of the menus, you gotta wonder.


----------



## tiger2005

Dr. Booda said:


> DirecTV's service and set-top box are best in class? Based upon what criteria? Having lots of HD stations doesn't make one "best in class". If a carrier supplies the stations that a customer wants (say only 15 stations), then that customer is happy. If a set-top box supplies the required features (DLB) to allow for satisfactory viewing, then the customer likes the box. I agree that DirecTV has the best sports subscription choices (the reason why I chose DirecTV over 10 years ago), so why do they continue to deny their most revenue generating customers a feature that makes them happy and loyal?


+1

Programming services don't make a DVR good. DirecTV's HD DVR line is in the top 3 not because of its features and wonderful software, but only because the other DVR's are so horrible.

TiVo and DISH's DVR's are by far the top 2 available on the market. DirecTV is so far behind them they can't even see them anymore over the horizon. Honestly, DirecTV's DVR's are A LOT closer to being OUT of the top 3 than they are in catching up to the leaders. It really seems like we've hit a timeframe in DirecTV's line where they aren't introducing any new features, and the current performance isn't being improved. Until that changes they have no hope of catching TiVo and DISH.


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> If D*'s service and set-top box are the best-in-class and it _doesn't _have DLB and all the other inferior services' set-top-boxes _have _DLB, then DLB is the problem. It's what holds back a decent STB and makes it weak.
> 
> The elimination of DLB is the wave of the future; don't blame D* because they figured it out first. All these other providers will learn from this and eliminate DLB too. Years ago, all phone manufacturers felt that the rotary dial was the best solution to make a call. When the push button came out, all the RD people screamed "we want RD back!" but ultimately came to realize that PBD was the better solution. You don't hear from those RD people any more. They were never part of PBD nation. They all died. Just like DLB.
> 
> BJ


How is DLB capability inferior to a SLB system?

"PBD" was an obvious improvement over "RD" - nothing was eliminated. That's not a very good example.

How does removing a useful feature "hold back a decent STB and make it weak?"


----------



## Drew2k

Does anyone notice who keeps getting quoted all the time in responses? Are we really even having a discussion on DLB, or are we just responding to one person? Why bother? We're not going to convince him, he's not going to convince us. Everything else is just ego-fluffing ...


----------



## kanderna

Drew2k said:


> Everything else is just ego-fluffing ...


We don't use the term 'fluffing' as often as we should. :lol:


----------



## qprhooligan

Tom Robertson said:


> Every so often, Earl and I post some of the reasons why DLB is not in the DVR+ line--today...
> 
> Can I say definitely DLB will be here? No. As I said, things are always in flux.
> 
> I can say that I believe DLB will be here. And thinking positively, trying to attract a future of my choice, DLB will be here and solid before the NFL season starts up again.  (That is a personal hope, prayer, and attempt at thinking positively, not a hint.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> All this very definitely can be worked out in a reasonable fashion. And DIRECTV has not taken DLB off the table. They very definitely listen to us.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, thanks for the post. It was very informative. I'm still just guessing but I think I now why they haven't added the DLB yet. I think it has to do with the DOD using the second tuner. And if the second tuner is always in use for the buffer that leaves no down time or unused tuner to handed the DOD stuff. I could be wrong but that is my guess.

Anyway I really hope they do find a way to give us DLB as it is the one feature I miss the most with my HR21.

If D* would just say they would impliment it when they had the resources I would be happy, even if it took a year.


----------



## puffnstuff

qprhooligan said:


> Tom, thanks for the post. It was very informative. I'm still just guessing but I think I now why they haven't added the DLB yet. I think it has to do with the DOD using the second tuner. And if the second tuner is always in use for the buffer that leaves no down time or unused tuner to handed the DOD stuff. I could be wrong but that is my guess.
> 
> Anyway I really hope they do find a way to give us DLB as it is the one feature I miss the most with my HR21.
> 
> If D* would just say they would impliment it when they had the resources I would be happy, even if it took a year.


Right , but the second tuner would also be in use if I decided to record all day long . So how would they push it then ? I think this is the reason that it is taking so long for DLB . Plus it all makes sense why not put a money making feature first . It just really sucks if that is the reason . They could have said something a long long time ago .


----------



## General Custer

If DOD is the reason that DLB is not here then that's one of the worst feature exchanges in history. That also fits with why no one is allowed to say because they know that most viewers here would much rather have DLB then DOD and they are too ashamed to admit they made a bad call on which feature to implement.


----------



## puffnstuff

General Custer said:


> If DOD is the reason that DLB is not here then that's one of the worst feature exchanges in history. That also fits with why no one is allowed to say because they know that most viewers here would much rather have DLB then DOD and they are too ashamed to admit they made a bad call on which feature to implement.


Exactly what he said !! Also thinking back to Sept '06 I believe this was discussed and I just can't remember what the answer was . I think it was one of the first things we could think of for the reason of no DLB . Time to do some research !


----------



## raott

General Custer said:


> If DOD is the reason that DLB is not here then that's one of the worst feature exchanges in history. That also fits with why no one is allowed to say because they know that most viewers here would much rather have DLB then DOD and they are too ashamed to admit they made a bad call on which feature to implement.


I thought (and I'm going totally off memory here) that there was a third tuner which DOD used and DOD had no impact at all on DLBs.

However, if DOD is the reason for no DLB, I would have to agree that not having DLB (a feature I would use daily) for a feature that I use maybe one every other week is a poor tradeoff.


----------



## dennisj00

DOD is through the net, not through the tuners. I can be recording two programs and still download and make selections through the menu for DOD.

I see nothing that DOD impacts DLB other than raw CPU or memory requirements. DOD could even be throttled as a background download.

I second the vote that it's a POOR feature exchange.


----------



## puffnstuff

dennisj00 said:


> DOD is through the net, not through the tuners. I can be recording two programs and still download and make selections through the menu for DOD.
> 
> I see nothing that DOD impacts DLB other than raw CPU or memory requirements. DOD could even be throttled as a background download.
> 
> I second the vote that it's a POOR feature exchange.


How would you do a background download if I was recording two things at once . Wouldn't I need another line to the reciever since right now I only have two ? Just checked the old thread , in post 1970 Earl said that pushed content was not the reason , Guess I was wrong . Maybe we should have a list of all the reasons we do know why we don't have DLB .


----------



## dennisj00

I meant recording two programs through the sat tuners while downloading a program on DOD through the net. If you make multiple DOD selections they are queued up for downloading through the net one at a time no matter how many sat recordings are going on.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> How would you do a background download if I was recording two things at once . Wouldn't I need another line to the reciever since right now I only have two ?


A network cable would count as a "third line" in this case.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> A network cable would count as a "third line" in this case.


 We were talking about when Tom said pushed DOD content . I wondered how they would do it for people that don't have there HR networked . I assumed that was what he was talking about , since you already can do two recordings and download DOD . But I already found the answer , which I really don't understand , what if I never stop recording , I assume I just miss it ?


----------



## goldduster

I vote for the must have! When I use the "work - around" I find that I get an intermittant voice stutter on the recorded side.


----------



## inkahauts

I don't believe that DOD is the reason for a lack of DLB, and DOD does not use one of the sat tuners to tune to a program to download. Frankly, I want to know what the third sat tuner is for.. Yes, there are three sat tuners in this box of ours, but no one seems to know much about it... (I think you hit info or menu and down arrow on the front panel or something like that to get it to show up) I think we will learn a lot more about that and why DLB isn't around yet over a 3 to 6 month period after D11 gets launched...


----------



## henryld

inkahauts said:


> I don't believe that DOD is the reason for a lack of DLB, and DOD does not use one of the sat tuners to tune to a program to download. Frankly, I want to know what the third sat tuner is for.. Yes, there are three sat tuners in this box of ours, but no one seems to know much about it... (I think you hit info or menu and down arrow on the front panel or something like that to get it to show up) I think we will learn a lot more about that and why DLB isn't around yet over a 3 to 6 month period after D11 gets launched...


With my limited knowledge I cannot wrap my mind around the possibilities this presents....3rd sat tuner. What are the options that come to mind for you that know about these configurations?


----------



## Capt'n

What good is three sat tuners if you only have two inputs?


----------



## Tom Robertson

The exercise for the day is to think about all the things an IRD does via satellite and how those things might be allocated to the tuners identified...


----------



## Capt'n

I'm assuming that when you record two shows at once, you need the third tuner to decode a previously recorded sat stream to view it while the other tuners are recording. I thought about it and that is what I came up with.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Capt'n;1487080 said:


> I'm assuming that when you record two shows at once, you need the third tuner to decode a previously recorded sat stream to view it while the other tuners are recording. I thought about it and that is what I came up with.


IIRC, there's no decoding when recording.

The raw data is written to the hard drive.

It's decoded during playback.

Mike


----------



## Capt'n

MicroBeta said:


> IIRC, there's no decoding when recording.
> 
> The raw data is written to the hard drive.
> 
> It's decoded during playback.
> 
> Mike


So do you need a tuner to play it or not? I'm not sure if your agreeing with me, or if your setting me straight.


----------



## James Long

No tuner should be needed for playback ... just a decoder to take the streams off of the hard drive and deliver them to the outputs (with the proper resolution, overlays, controls, etc.).

Tuners are for receiving signals. Perhaps the "third tuner" is used for program guide information or interactive capabilities. DirecTV would have to do something special on the coax to pass three transponders to the receiver at the same time so I doubt if it can be in use at the same time as the regular two SAT tuners.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Capt'n;1487217 said:


> So do you need a tuner to play it or not? I'm not sure if your agreeing with me, or if your setting me straight.


Sorry, I reread my post and I don't know where I was going with it....:grin:

I was meant to say....IIRC, playback of a recording doesn't use a tuner.

Mike


----------



## Ashtonian

Stuart Sweet said:


> On August 16, 2006, a lifetime ago in Internet time, DBSTalk.com user *Que* posted a poll called "Dual Buffers". This was a few days after the first review of the HR20 DVR, and as the second DIRECTV DVR without dual live buffers, it was an important step in letting our friends at DIRECTV know about the importance of that feature.
> 
> Since then, that one poll has garnered over 3,600 votes and close to 3,000 responses.
> 
> After many of us have lived without DLB's for almost a year, and in light of the recent DLB work-around that's been implemented, the DBSTalk.com moderators believe it's a good time to freshly ask the question of whether or not DLB's still need to be implemented in the strict "DirecTiVo" sense of the word.
> 
> We hope to have a civil discussion that will, in the end, help our friends at DIRECTV know what we're thinking.


D* says that dual DLB is proprietary Tivo® technology and thus it cannot be implemented on D* systems. So any discussion is purely moot.


----------



## Capt'n

Ashtonian said:


> D* says that dual DLB is proprietary Tivo® technology and thus it cannot be implemented on D* systems. So any discussion is purely moot.


Please post a link to your source. If that was the case, we would all know about it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Ashtonian said:


> D* says that dual DLB is proprietary Tivo® technology and thus it cannot be implemented on D* systems. So any discussion is purely moot.


Can you tell us where you saw this.

IIRC it has been discussed often and it's been determined that this is not an issue.

I could be wrong....but I don't think so...:grin:

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Ashtonian said:


> D* says that dual DLB is proprietary Tivo® technology and thus it cannot be implemented on D* systems. So any discussion is purely moot.


You are incorrect. This is NOT the case at all.

BTW, how do you explain the many other DVR providers whose units have DLB? They're certainly not TIVO-related or approved. Regardless, as has been mentioned numerous times before here: the lack of DLB has nothing to do with legal reasons.


----------



## Halo

Tom Robertson said:


> The exercise for the day is to think about all the things an IRD does via satellite and how those things might be allocated to the tuners identified...


The mystery of the 3rd sat tuner:lol:

If whatever content (data, video) is mirrored to all 4 switch positions coming from the dish then Tuner#3 will always have access to it.

Data/Stats?- not a problem, low bandwidth
Showcases?-maybe. Using the third tuner would allow a showcase to be downloaded even with both main tuners already in use.
Active (interactive)?- mainly just data with some video in a box. Easy
On Demand Video? No way. I'm not a believer of video on demand over sat anyway, but definitely not with having to use 4X the bandwidth.

If we're talking SWM customers only then there wouldn't be a need to mirror to all 4 switches and it would allow the 3rd tuner to be at full capability (assuming that the 3rd tuner can demod/dvbs2 a 3rd stream).

All of those things (3rd tuner trick) would still work with DLB enabled. Whatever they have in mind better be good


----------



## boltjames

Yes!

Just read about the new HR21-Pro's DBS review on Engadget. I'm assuming that since it's a more expensive "professional" version that it has DLB. So everyone's happy now, right? There's nothing better than a happy ending.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> Yes!
> 
> Just read about the new HR21-Pro's DBS review on Engadget. I'm assuming that since it's a more expensive "professional" version that it has DLB. So everyone's happy now, right? There's nothing better than a happy ending.
> 
> BJ


I'm sorry, who's review on Engadget?  Seems to me they link to DBStalk.com's review on the HR21Pro. 

And the HR21-Pro does not have DLB--yet. Software-wise, it is identical to the HR21-200 and thus the entire HR2x family of DVRs.

You really should read my homework before coming to the table... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ashtonian said:


> D* says that dual DLB is proprietary Tivo® technology and thus it cannot be implemented on D* systems. So any discussion is purely moot.


DIRECTV tells me otherwise thru several sources plus the even better sources that Earl maintains.

And recall that DIRECTV has licensed TiVo technology.
And on top of that, purchased rights to TiVo IP thru the Replay acquisition.

Now, if you can find a solid, creditable link or better yet, a patent, that would be very interesting.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm sorry, who's review on Engadget?  Seems to me they link to DBStalk.com's review on the HR21Pro.
> 
> And the HR21-Pro does not have DLB--yet. Software-wise, it is identical to the HR21-200 and thus the entire HR2x family of DVRs.
> 
> You really should read my homework before coming to the table...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What? What a cruel, cruel trick for D* to play on us. A "professional" DVR and no DLB? Don't they read the poll? This is infuriating. I thought that March 6 would be right up there with Flag Day and Bastille Day. Like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus hooked up and gave birth to the Tooth Fairy. Like Brett Favre and Mark Messier hooking up to make Hideki Matsui.

Looks like the genie was right.

BJ


----------



## armophob

Happy belated 20,000 views newest DLB post!!!:balloons: :beatdeadhorse: :blowout: :hb:


----------



## Drew2k

I think it's great the way people are drawn to DLB ... so great I had to look up a word.



> *troll*
> An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds.


Subtle definitely does not apply, and the posts are not incorrect, so all I can say is ... kudos that there is NOT any trolling!

But then again ...



> *troll*
> v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT.
> 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll."
> 
> Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.


Again, nothing "wrong", so ... we're good! :up:


----------



## Doug Brott

now, now .. passion comes in many forms .. sometimes misguided passion only serves to create passion in others.


----------



## Lord Vader

Indeed. Passion is what gives the Sith our strength.


----------



## dyker

Tom Robertson said:


> ... on top of that, purchased rights to TiVo IP thru the Replay acquisition.


What is Tivo IP? My former DVRs were Replay 5000 series.


----------



## Tom Robertson

TiVo Intelectual Property, ie their patents and agreements to use other people's patents. I've heard their portfolio has approximately 80-90 patents all told, tho I do not know how many actually apply to DVRs or are in use in any DVR today. (I know that a few patents were filed and approved but don't seem to have been actually implemented yet.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## islesfan

Sorry guys, but since the Islanders are only capable of playing one game at a time (and on some nights not even that), I have zero use for DLB.


----------



## boltjames

islesfan said:


> Sorry guys, but since the Islanders are only capable of playing one game at a time (and on some nights not even that), I have zero use for DLB.


And since there are only 12 games left in their entire season, looks like the HR22 might be your best opportunity to see them play on two tuners. For your next playoff game, the HR30 seems to be about right. The game did look a lot better on MSG, as is to be expected.










BJ


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> now, now .. passion comes in many forms .. sometimes misguided passion only serves to create passion in others.


The HR20 is God's gift and the greatest DVR on planet Earth. It is to be appreciated for the scores of features it has, not criticized for the one tiny thing it lacks.

And D*, if you're reading this, after much introspection I forgive you for not putting DLB in the new "professional" model even though you'd think it would have been included for our upset, tuner-happy brothers. You know what's best for us, and we look forward to more of your proper decision-making.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> The HR20 is God's gift and the greatest DVR on planet Earth. It is to be appreciated for the scores of features it has, not criticized for the one tiny thing it lacks.


Guess what, we can do both!



boltjames said:


> And D*, if you're reading this, after much introspection I forgive you for not putting DLB in the new "professional" model even though you'd think it would have been included for our upset, tuner-happy brothers. You know what's best for us, and we look forward to more of your proper decision-making.
> 
> BJ


If nothing else, you certainly give me a good laugh these days.... :lol:

Aside from not having DLB, the professional model doesn't even have OTA ability! That makes it useless around here at this point.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think there are plenty of other threads in which to discuss the HR21Pro and the upcoming AM21 antenna module. This thread is for the extremely protracted discussion of dual live buffers.


----------



## inkahauts

Stuart Sweet said:


> extremely protracted


Understatement of the year award goes to Stuart! Nobody is going to beat that the rest of the year....


----------



## whaleboy

boltjames said:


> It is to be appreciated for the scores of features it has, not criticized for the one tiny thing it lacks.


And I'd give up all those new features for the tiny thing it lacks. If I could get a unit that only matched the features of my HD TIVO, and nothing else other than being able to get the new HD channels, I'd have done it months ago. The features I've seen touted by Dtv I don't care about. I honestly put DLB on par with the ability to pause live TV. Its something I use EVERY day. Imagine if they took pause out and everyone said "No big deal, just hit record, then you can pause... simple work around". Well... no, and same for DLB. What's a tiny feature for you is not for a lot of others, so I can't figure out why you keeps saying its no big deal? Its not to you, obviously, but for us its very important.

So please stop trying to convince us otherwise.

I have yet to downgrade to the new DVR, and keep checking back every few weeks to see if there is any news about it being added. Unfortunately, not yet. So I'll keep checking back and MAYBE at some point the desire for the extra HD channels will overcome all else, but for now, I'll wait. Hopefully the existing HD channels will stay put for now.

-David


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> Understatement of the year award goes to Stuart! Nobody is going to beat that the rest of the year....


The discussion is extremely protracted because D*'s silence on the issue has been extremely protracted.


----------



## Richierich

It is EXTREMELY INTERESTING that Directv doesn't take note of this situation (which I believe they have) and let us know that something will be done about it in the Future or that it won't be done and here's WHY???

When I want to experience DLB I simply find two programs I want to watch such as today, NASCAR here in Atlanta (about 25 miles from my house) and PGA Golf. I simply record both and Select both from Now Playing and swap after Pausing the one channel to the other channel.

If when I am thru I don't want one or both of the programs I simply delete it. What is so difficult about this???


----------



## Villanman

I thought I would really miss the DLB... During the Football season, it was the one thing I depended on while watching the Sunday Ticket.
But given the features that the HR21 does have as opposed to the HR10-250, I have found I can live without it. 
If I want it, the work around is sufficient. 
If you gave me my HR10-250 like it is now with only the added HD channels, I'm not so sure I'd go back as I've grown to really like the new features I get much more than the one I'm giving up.


----------



## ATARI

raott said:


> The discussion is extremely protracted because D*'s silence on the issue has been extremely protracted.


+1


----------



## ATARI

Villanman said:


> I thought I would really miss the DLB... During the Football season, it was the one thing I depended on while watching the Sunday Ticket.
> But given the features that the HR21 does have as opposed to the HR10-250, I have found I can live without it.
> If I want it, the work around is sufficient.
> If you gave me my HR10-250 like it is now with only the added HD channels, I'm not so sure I'd go back as I've grown to really like the new features I get much more than the one I'm giving up.


This was my first football season with the HR20, and I really missed the DLB.

I wonder if 'bolt' watches football??


----------



## diverdra

whaleboy said:


> I have yet to downgrade to the new DVR, and keep checking back every few weeks to see if there is any news about it being added. Unfortunately, not yet. So I'll keep checking back and MAYBE at some point the desire for the extra HD channels will overcome all else, but for now, I'll wait. Hopefully the existing HD channels will stay put for now.
> 
> -David


I'm with you, David. I am an early adopter (I just love doing firmware updates on my PS3s and Denon AVR) but I won't feed our 6 HDTVs these new D* HD channels until double buffer is implemented or at least announced for a future firmware update (the wife says so).
__________________
Mitsubishi Diamond 73" DLP
Denon AVR 3808ci
Sony PS3 80GB + 160GB HD (X2)
Oppo DV-981HD (DVD Audio)
Klipsch RF-5, RC-3, RS-3 & RSW-10d Sub
BDs = 116 (since August 2007) 21 SACDs & DVD Audio


----------



## boltjames

diverdra said:


> I'm with you, David. I am an early adopter (I just love doing firmware updates on my PS3s and Denon AVR) but I won't feed our 6 HDTVs these new D* HD channels until double buffer is implemented or at least announced for a future firmware update (the wife says so).


Ha ha ha ha! Wow. And I think _I'm _funny? That takes the cake.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> This was my first football season with the HR20, and I really missed the DLB.
> 
> I wonder if 'bolt' watches football??


Yes, I watch football. And, yes, DLB is a nice-to-have when you've got two games headed into OT.

But for those, say, 5 minutes a year that I wish DLB were available, there are 512,635 other minutes that the HR20 makes so pleasurable I just forget that DLB ever existed.

Just like everyone else.

BJ


----------



## kanderna

boltjames said:


> Yes, I watch football. And, yes, DLB is a nice-to-have when you've got two games headed into OT.
> 
> But for those, say, 5 minutes a year that I wish DLB were available, there are 512,635 other minutes that the HR20 makes so pleasurable I just forget that DLB ever existed.
> 
> Just like everyone else.
> 
> BJ


1. Not just like everyone else... laughable
2. That's a lot of minutes watching TV.
3. Speaking of minutes... describe that calculation of minutes to me... not sure how you got it.


----------



## dennisj00

Bolt has only 356 days a year.

Wrong on several accounts!


----------



## kanderna

dennisj00 said:


> Bolt has only 356 days a year.
> 
> Wrong on several accounts!


Yeah, I know... I was hoping to elicit yet another ridiculous response.


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> DLB is a nice-to-have
> 
> BJ


That's all I needed to hear.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> That's all I needed to hear.


 I had exactly the same though ..


----------



## Mac user

DLB is sorely missed since switching from tivo to HR-700. I use work around, however, it's not the same. Love the 700 and won't give it up, but for sports fans, DLB is a sweet option to have.


----------



## Richierich

What if DLB isn't doable now since everything is in place. It may be a major problem to restructure everything in order to implement DLB because if it was not a major problem I'm sure Directv would have done it by now knowing how many of us are NOT HAPPY with the Exclusion of DLB!!!


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> Bolt has only 356 days a year.
> 
> Wrong on several accounts!


Damn. My manservant usually works the calculator for me, but I gave him the night off. Some day I'll take a course in how to operate one. Can a calculator handle two calculations at once? Is there a button that lets you jump between the two calculations so you don't miss any of the action?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

richierich said:


> What if DLB isn't doable now since everything is in place. It may be a major problem to restructure everything in order to implement DLB because if it was not a major problem I'm sure Directv would have done it by now knowing how many of us are NOT HAPPY with the Exclusion of DLB!!!


A few hundred "not happy" people out of millions is statistically insignificant. My calculating manservant told me so.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

kanderna said:


> Yeah, I know... I was hoping to elicit yet another ridiculous response.


What is ridiculous about my platform which, simply put, is:

_There is so much good in the HR20 and so many great new features that have been added that it more than compensates for the one thing that was taken away._

That's not ridiculous; that's _supportive_. Supportive of D* and their engineering staff. You DLB types take all the great new features completely for granted and then get upset when D* does the same thing to you? Talk about hypocrisy.

BJ


----------



## James Long

It is also _false_ ... DLB was not taken away. It was never on the HR20 to take away.


----------



## raott

James Long said:


> It is also _false_ ... DLB was not taken away. It was never on the HR20 to take away.


It was previously on the only HD DVRs offered by D*, it no longer is. It was therefore taken away. His point was pretty obvious.


----------



## Drew2k

My position, not that anyone asked:

*There is so much that is great about the DVR Plus platform, adding DLB would be the cherry on top of the sundae.*


----------



## ToddinVA

Drew2k said:


> My position, not that anyone asked:
> 
> *There is so much that is great about the DVR Plus platform, adding DLB would be the cherry on top of the sundae.*


And I ALWAYS have to have the cherry...


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> It is also _false_ ... DLB was not taken away. It was never on the HR20 to take away.


Understood, but the entire "I miss DLB, sniff, sniff" platform is based on a comparison of the Tivo HR10 and the D* HR20 so forgive the creative liberty there. What's left of this argument is nothing more than the smouldering remains of a once heated debate over at Tivo Forums.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> My position, not that anyone asked:
> 
> *There is so much that is great about the DVR Plus platform, adding DLB would be the cherry on top of the sundae.*


Good. _Good_. I know it is Drew that will turn to the right side. I have forseen it.

And while any sundae deserves a good cherry, you wind up with more ice cream if its volume is removed from the container. And since it is ice cream that makes the sundae a sundae, one shouldn't ask to sacrifice a fraction of ice cream for the sake of the cherry.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> What is ridiculous about my platform which, simply put, is:
> 
> _There is so much good in the HR20 and so many great new features that have been added that it more than compensates for the one thing that was taken away._
> 
> That's not ridiculous; that's _supportive_. Supportive of D* and their engineering staff. You DLB types take all the great new features completely for granted and then get upset when D* does the same thing to you? Talk about hypocrisy.
> 
> BJ


Supportive of the Engineering Staff that released unstable code that crashed the HR20 for over a year when basic functions attempted to execute?

New features like "Beta" Media Share and DOD (which are Alpha or worse in reality)?

You can keep all of the new features if TiVo quality DLB was instituted as a trade off.


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Good. _Good_. I know it is Drew that will turn to the right side. I have forseen it.
> 
> And while any sundae deserves a good cherry, you wind up with more ice cream if its volume is removed from the container. And since it is ice cream that makes the sundae a sundae, one shouldn't ask to sacrifice a fraction of ice cream for the sake of the cherry.
> 
> BJ


How can one person be wrong about so many things? Ice cream without the toppings is just ice cream. It is the topping in conjuction with the ice cream that makes a sundae a sundae.


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> How can one person be wrong about so many things? Ice cream without the toppings is just ice cream. It is the topping in conjuction with the ice cream that makes a sundae a sundae.


Hot fudge, nuts, and other toppings are certainly core to the sundae. But the cherry is just a lonely, frivolous, meaningless piece of eye candy. It does nothing to make the sundae taste better; it's just there to make the person eating it feel better about himself. If you took the cherry off the sundae permanently, no one would miss it. In fact, I'd argue, the extra mouthful of ice cream would be appreciated even more. It's like a bonus. Lose one thing, gain so many other things.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> Supportive of the Engineering Staff that released unstable code that crashed the HR20 for over a year when basic functions attempted to execute?
> 
> New features like "Beta" Media Share and DOD (which are Alpha or worse in reality)?
> 
> You can keep all of the new features if TiVo quality DLB was instituted as a trade off.


It's not just code as examples of what a leap forward the HR20 was over the HR10. There's so much more. Things like the 'stop' button and the 'back' button. The God-like "native" mode. The rock-solid performance, the faster menu's, the HD indicators, the saved searches, the softkeys, the 5.1 audio out fix, and on and on.

The HR20 is a fantastic machine. Sounds like yours is defective or you spent too much time in the test forum experimenting and pushing your unit past its limits.

BJ


----------



## JBernardK

boltjames said:


> What is ridiculous about my platform which, simply put, is:
> 
> _There is so much good in the HR20 and so many great new features that have been added that it more than compensates for the one thing that was taken away._
> 
> BJ


One thing? Umm, what about the list guide, the unlimited number of series links, OTA, reliability, intuitive GUI, great remote, smooth trick play, to name a few.


----------



## ub1934

JBernardK said:


> One thing? Umm, what about the list guide, the unlimited number of series links, OTA, reliability, intuitive GUI, great remote, smooth trick play, to name a few.


 Would give up DOD to get DLB on the HR 20-700 :hurah:


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> It's not just code as examples of what a leap forward the HR20 was over the HR10. There's so much more. Things like the 'stop' button and the 'back' button. The God-like "native" mode. The rock-solid performance, the faster menu's, the HD indicators, the saved searches, the softkeys, the 5.1 audio out fix, and on and on.
> 
> The HR20 is a fantastic machine. Sounds like yours is defective or you spent too much time in the test forum experimenting and pushing your unit past its limits.
> 
> BJ


God-like "native" mode: Read the other threads; native isn't completely accurate in its resolution choice and will still cause lockup issues via HDMI. Why use "native" at all? I remember the resolution that each station is broadcast in and set it manually. This method also speeds up channel change time by 50%.

Faster menus: Compared to the HR10 that was engineered over five years ago? I would hope that it is faster with a newer processer and memory in it.

My machine isn't defective and never was since the Fall of 2006. The software was/is the problem. And no, I've never "experimented" in any test or CE forum to push the limits of anything, unless you consider the entire experience as an involuntary Beta test for the software package as a whole.


----------



## boltjames

JBernardK said:


> One thing? Umm, what about the list guide, the unlimited number of series links, OTA, reliability, intuitive GUI, great remote, smooth trick play, to name a few.


One thing at a time.

List Guide: The only reason that so many people used this stacked version of the guide is because the Tivo's bargraph guide was so damned slow. The HR20 has the traditional bargraph guide and it's incredibly fast. You're missing a feature that really was nothing more than a cover-up for a slow guide.

Series Links: What's the issue? All my series record properly and I've never felt like I was capped on the amount I could ask the HR20 to record for me.

OTA: Like DLB, this is only desireable for a small fraction of the D* userbase. If you can afford D* and HD then you surely can afford the local package and that renders OTA useless. PBS is coming online soon, makes this a non-issue.

Reliability: You're kidding, right? My HR10 was the most unreliable piece of consumer electronics I've ever owned. Thing would stutter all the time, screen would black out for 10 seconds for no reason, episodes within series recordings would mysteriously not record, and the audio dropouts were frequent and maddening. The HR20, on the other hand, has been rock-solid. Only one issue to date and that was on a night that D* had a brain freeze with their servers and 20% of their users lost DVR functionality for a few hours. Not the HR20's fault.

Intuitive GUI: Come on, Tivo isn't that different than the HR20. All the important functions are there and are accessible. And for accessibility, the softkeys are a huge leap forward from the HR10 where you needed to drill into menus for everything. With the HR20, you're never more than two button presses away from the most important functions due to the softkey UI.

Remote: The HR20's remote is just fine. Like any remote, it's made to be replaced with a Harmony or some other multi-function model anyway. Who uses the stock remote in today's home theater world? Not that many. And those that do are Mr. & Mrs. Camry types and I don't think they could get confused with the big buttons and contrasting color design. That "back" button is a God-send. No back button on the HR10.

Trick Play: Again, we're really being nit-picky here. The tricks are all there- and more tricks, in fact. Once you read how to execute them it becomes second-nature. Much ado about nothing.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> God-like "native" mode: Read the other threads; native isn't completely accurate in its resolution choice and will still cause lockup issues via HDMI. Why use "native" at all? I remember the resolution that each station is broadcast in and set it manually. This method also speeds up channel change time by 50%.


"Native" mode allows the HR20 to act as a passthru and allows your TV to do all the heavy lifting for scaling and processing. On the HR10 there was no way to tell the box to leave the virgin signal alone. That extra second to change channels is well worth the leap in picture quality if you have a high-end TV whose manufacturer spends millions on the circuitry/software to support this function.

BJ


----------



## James Long

There is no such thing as native pass through ... native regeneration, maybe, but the receiver still has to do the "heavy lifting" of taking a signal that is compressed for satellite transportation and turning it in to some signal for the TV to use.

Changing what the output is every time one changes channels may be heavier lifting than just converting to one standard output 24/7. Hence the reported problems.


----------



## Richierich

There is such a thing as "Native Pass Thru" and that is when Directv has decompressed the signal to it's original format and resolution and passes it thru without changing it!!!


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> There is no such thing as native pass through ... native regeneration, maybe, but the receiver still has to do the "heavy lifting" of taking a signal that is compressed for satellite transportation and turning it in to some signal for the TV to use.
> 
> Changing what the output is every time one changes channels may be heavier lifting than just converting to one standard output 24/7. Hence the reported problems.


I do not doubt what you say is true, but with the naked eye on my Sony panel the difference between an MPEG2 broadcast on the HR10 and the HR20 was staggering. Whatever the HR10 was doing to process and scale that transmission was eliminated the moment I plugged in my HR20 on native mode and let my Sony take over from there. Picture was brighter, crisper, smoother.

BJ


----------



## James Long

richierich said:


> There is such a thing as "Native Pass Thru" and that is when Directv has decompressed the signal to it's original format and resolution and passes it thru without changing it!!!


Which is regeneration ... not pass through. The label applied to the processing is misleading.


----------



## mrpull

boltjames said:


> ...Things like the 'stop' button and the 'back' button. The God-like "native" mode...
> BJ


What is so good about the Stop and Back buttons?

I used a TiVo for so long it just seems that the Stop, Back, Exit, and Left arrow are needlessly redundant and sometimes confusing.


----------



## lman

boltjames said:


> One thing at a time.
> 
> OTA: Like DLB, this is only desireable for a small fraction of the D* userbase. If you can afford D* and HD then you surely can afford the local package and that renders OTA useless. PBS is coming online soon, makes this a non-issue.
> 
> BJ


I have a HD TV so that I can watch HD programming. DirecTV does not carry my local channels in HD. So I need OTA to watch local HD programming, It looks like this is another example in what works for you does not work for many of us. We need DLB so that we can watch TV the way we like it.


----------



## ToddinVA

mrpull said:


> What is so good about the Stop and Back buttons?
> 
> I used a TiVo for so long it just seems that the Stop, Back, Exit, and Left arrow are needlessly redundant and sometimes confusing.


Exactly! There is no need for redundant Stop and Back buttons on a properly designed DVR...


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> I do not doubt what you say is true, but with the naked eye on my Sony panel the difference between an MPEG2 broadcast on the HR10 and the HR20 was staggering. Whatever the HR10 was doing to process and scale that transmission was eliminated the moment I plugged in my HR20 on native mode and let my Sony take over from there. Picture was brighter, crisper, smoother.
> 
> BJ


Yep. Same with my SONY.

The ice cream part of the HR20 is very solid -- no soft-serve here.  
D* got the HD part right.

But I still want my cherry DLB.


----------



## Drew2k

I would like to personally thank BoltJames for helping to keep the DLB flame burning brightly. Without you, this thread would surely have died a thousand times already. Thank you for fanning the flames and keeping the spirit alive! 

Now we all know that you're privately a fan of DLB but are acting as a sleeper agent, publicly opposed to DLB, simply so the conversation won't end and we keep the attention on DLB where it belongs. Well done, BJ, well done! :up:


----------



## ATARI

I agree.

Cheers to BJ for keeping DLB alive!!

:goodjob:


----------



## ToddinVA

Gimme a D!
Gimme an L!
Gimme a B!
What does that spell?! *DLB*
Yeeeaaaah, Bolt!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> I would like to personally thank BoltJames for helping to keep the DLB flame burning brightly. Without you, this thread would surely have died a thousand times already. Thank you for fanning the flames and keeping the spirit alive!
> 
> Now we all know that you're privately a fan of DLB but are acting as a sleeper agent, publicly opposed to DLB, simply so the conversation won't end and we keep the attention on DLB where it belongs. Well done, BJ, well done! :up:


BJ is the number on poster in this thread. He leads the second place guy by nearly 10%. :hurah:

Thanks

Mike


----------



## mrpull

The first question my wife asked when we upgraded was:

How do I pause one show and watch another?

She is NOT technical and still gripes about the lack of DLB.


----------



## jviter

mrpull said:


> The first question my wife asked when we upgraded was:
> 
> How do I pause one show and watch another?
> 
> She is NOT technical and still gripes about the lack of DLB.


I am in the same boat, and she wants another tv so she can hook up here old tivo unit since she hates the HR21 SO SO badly


----------



## dbronstein

mrpull said:


> What is so good about the Stop and Back buttons?
> 
> I used a TiVo for so long it just seems that the Stop, Back, Exit, and Left arrow are needlessly redundant and sometimes confusing.


The stop button is the only one that is intuitive.


----------



## Dr. Booda

mrpull said:


> The first question my wife asked when we upgraded was:
> 
> How do I pause one show and watch another?
> 
> She is NOT technical and still gripes about the lack of DLB.





jviter said:


> I am in the same boat, and she wants another tv so she can hook up here old tivo unit since she hates the HR21 SO SO badly


Welcome guys to our purgatory. If I assume that you've just recently upgraded, feel some solace. I've had my wife complain about no DLB since the Fall of 2006. EVERY DAY, FOR 17 MONTHS. I pray that she won't have to go through another football season without it...


----------



## Lord Vader

One word, Booda: *Divorce*.

Problem solved.


----------



## jviter

Lord Vader said:


> One word, Booda: *Divorce*.
> 
> Problem solved.


*****ing would still take place over email :hurah:


----------



## Dr. Booda

Lord Vader said:


> One word, Booda: *Divorce*.
> 
> Problem solved.


Nah, she's too entertaining.  Think of it as a mutual rant fest. At least we're communicating.


----------



## jviter

It has been a rough 3 weeks and we almost bit the Cable bullet, but they didn't carry ESPN2 and we CAN'T live without NHRA, but if D* doesn't get their act together and we can get ESPN2 via Cable, look out!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Remember the 3 F's: Family Friendly Forum...

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## JBernardK

I want DLB as much as anyone, but the funny thing is that of all the people I know who have left D* for FIOS or cable, no one has listed lack of DLB as the reason. The big reason people list is that they can't try the HR2X without a two year commitment. And they are worried about it because of all the reports of problems. Another reason is the superior quality of FIOS. And finally, many are willing to pay extra for a HD TiVo that they know will work and please the family.


----------



## Lord Vader

But I wonder how many of these people would have *stayed * had DLB been implemented. It might not be the reason why people leave, but it *may *be the reason why they stay.


----------



## puckzx6

I'll be leaving because of it. Add on that E* has announced that my locals will be in HD soon I've decided that it's more likely E* will catch up w/ D* in # of HD channels that I care about before D* catchs up w/ E* in quality of reciever.


----------



## katesguy

Last night I grabbed the remote and accidentally hit the channel button. Lost the show. DLB would have saved the day


----------



## ToddinVA

We are apparently soon going to get HD locals from DISH around here (I live in the largest metro area in the country WITHOUT DirecTV HD locals...) along with our 2 LIN local TV stations which DirecTV still doesn't have anywhere. I blame LIN, but that's another thread. This along with DLB (and multi-room viewing) just may get me to switch. I just can't fully ween myself off of my HR10 because of DLB. It's what I use a lot while watching TV. Period. Okay Bolt??


----------



## Tom Robertson

katesguy said:


> Last night I grabbed the remote and accidentally hit the channel button. Lost the show. DLB would have saved the day


?? Never saved me in the past. Channel button always flushed the buffer in my experience--unless I happened to hit the exact channel that was on the other tuner.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dennisj00

I think the Sony Sat-60 I had would change the 2nd tuner on an inadvertant remote keypress -- unless it was busy -- thus preserving the current live buffer. I've used that as a 'feature' of the DLB in my arguments!

Unfortunately, I can't test it anymore. The 60 went to the stack of dead electronics a few weeks ago.

Just give us access to the second tuner with a smaller buffer! (or 2- 45s).

Or lately, a stable SLB!


----------



## Lord Vader

I still have a working T60. If I accidentally changed the channel it would NOT preserve the live buffer unless the channel to which I accidentally changed was, in fact, the channel on the other tuner.


----------



## bmerrow

Agree DLB would not save the day for the case described - hit random channel - and I would not leave D* because of lack of DLB but DLB is missed big time and would make wife happy more better

Remember: Happy Wife == Happy Life


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> I just can't fully ween myself off of my HR10 because of DLB. It's what I use a lot while watching TV. Period. Okay Bolt??


Well, why stop there? I've got three T-60's, want 'em?










BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> I still have a working T60. If I accidentally changed the channel it would NOT preserve the live buffer unless the channel to which I accidentally changed was, in fact, the channel on the other tuner.


LOL. Kismet.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I would like to personally thank BoltJames for helping to keep the DLB flame burning brightly. Without you, this thread would surely have died a thousand times already. Thank you for fanning the flames and keeping the spirit alive!
> 
> Now we all know that you're privately a fan of DLB but are acting as a sleeper agent, publicly opposed to DLB, simply so the conversation won't end and we keep the attention on DLB where it belongs. Well done, BJ, well done! :up:


Remember, at CES I was going to speak to someone important at the D* booth but I couldn't get over to the Venitian for you.

I'm working the system. We'll get it done. I am pro-DLB for one reason only: It will put the attention squarely back where it belongs, and that's right on the HR20 and all of its tremendous innovations. I'm tired of it being needlessly besmirched.










Thank you, God. Thank you for the HR20. Forgive its detractors for they know not what they do.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> Remember, at CES I was going to speak to someone important at the D* booth but I couldn't get over to the Venitian for you.
> ...
> BJ


?? You couldn't take the free shuttle over to the Venetian? I was back and forth so many times I knew all 50 shuttle bus drivers it seemed.

And the important people were there...


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> ?? You couldn't take the free shuttle over to the Venetian? I was back and forth so many times I knew all 50 shuttle bus drivers it seemed.
> 
> And the important people were there...


I was very tired from walking Central and both floors of South in the same afternoon.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> I was very tired from walking Central and both floors of South in the same afternoon.
> 
> BJ


Priorities, man, priorities. 

(I do fully understand about being very tired at CES. I was wiped out on press day from 7 press conferences in a row...)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> Hot fudge, nuts, and other toppings are certainly core to the sundae. But the cherry is just a lonely, frivolous, meaningless piece of eye candy. It does nothing to make the sundae taste better; it's just there to make the person eating it feel better about himself. If you took the cherry off the sundae permanently, no one would miss it. In fact, I'd argue, the extra mouthful of ice cream would be appreciated even more. It's like a bonus. Lose one thing, gain so many other things.
> 
> BJ


Just like every other time, once your error has been pointed out, you change the argument.


----------



## Ashtonian

Capt'n;1488136 said:


> Please post a link to your source. If that was the case, we would all know about it.


A D* CSR told me over the phone the other day as I was trying to explain what a blank recording was. The DLB came into the discussion along the way.

Either way, doesn't it make complete sense? 
Otherwise this would be a top 5 feature already.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alas, listening to a CSR talking about technical and legal issues outside their purview is never considered a wise choice...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *80 8.09%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them.* 155 15.67%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 89 9.00%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *626 63.30%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit.* 39 3.94% *
Voters: *989*

Replies 844
Views 23,864

Almost 1000 votes. Looks like James was right. The % is about the same (08-17-06).

[edit]

Old DLB stats

A must have! 2836 77.66%
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965 
Views 146,826


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *80 8.09%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them.* 155 15.67%*
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 89 9.00%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *626 63.30%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit.* 39 3.94% *
> Voters: *989*
> 
> Replies 844
> Views 23,864


Less than 1,000 people out of _millions _of owners. Millions.

I asked 8 kids in my son's kindergarten class what their favorite ice cream flavor is and they all said butter pecan. But in the supermarket, there are tons of vanilla and chocolate choices but only one or two butter pecan's. Why? It's the most beloved flavor of them all.

BJ


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> Less than 1,000 people out of _millions _of owners. Millions.


sigh...

the Mods have given strict instructions not to make comments on the validity of the survey...they can yell at me if they wish...

as a statistician, I've commented many times on the validity of the survey...if your only beef is with the sample size, let me assure you that a thousand is PLENTY to make statistical conclusions about the population...


----------



## Drew2k

Thank you again, BJ! Way to keep the thread alive!!!:up:


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> Less than 1,000 people out of _millions _of owners. Millions.
> 
> I asked 8 kids in my son's kindergarten class what their favorite ice cream flavor is and they all said butter pecan. But in the supermarket, there are tons of vanilla and chocolate choices but only one or two butter pecan's. Why? It's the most beloved flavor of them all.
> 
> BJ


Almost 4000 replies (both surveys combined), and more than 70% wanted DLB.

That _is_ statistically significant. No ifs, ands or buts about it.


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> Almost 4000 replies (both surveys combined), and more than 70% wanted DLB.
> 
> That _is_ statistically significant. No ifs, ands or buts about it.


You can't merge both surveys as most people would be counted twice as they'd be included in both populations.

Oh, and DLB is never coming back. "No ifs, ands or buts about it".

BJ


----------



## boltjames

anubys said:


> as a statistician, I've commented many times on the validity of the survey...if your only beef is with the sample size, let me assure you that a thousand is PLENTY to make statistical conclusions about the population...


As a humanitarian, I've commented many times on the validity of DLB, and my only beef with the survey is that its skewed by the disgruntled power users that find their way to tech discussion forums like this one. It's not the sample size; it's the inaccurate portrayal of the population. Get Mr. & Mrs. Camry to vote on DBS and that's going to devastate the current conclusion that one draws from the "poll".

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Get Mr. & Mrs. Camry to vote on DBS and that's going to devastate the current conclusion that one draws from the "poll".
> 
> BJ


And as I've said, my sister, a former Camry driver and now a Sienna driver, would vote a big YES to DLB...


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> Oh, and DLB is never coming back. "No ifs, ands or buts about it".


Can we bet your (virtual) life on that?
The day DirecTV announces DLB for this series we just ban you forever?
After all, your purpose in (virtual) life will end _when_ DLB comes to the series. 

It's one thing to say "I don't believe DLB will ever come" and another to say "DLB is never coming back". Please don't state your personal opinions as facts. You insult the intelligence of everyone who happens across your posts.


----------



## skimmilk

With the NCAAs about to start tomorrow, I'm at odds over what to do. I have the HR-10 in the bed room, but I don't want to reprogram my remote just for the 3 weekends of basketball. But the lack of DLBs will be infuriating when I have to go through the "workaround" a dozen times every day. Kind of defeats the purpose of buying the NCAA package when you're stuck watching 1 channel without going through a thumb acrobatics process which takes so long as to miss anything exciting.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> It's one thing to say "I don't believe DLB will ever come" and another to say "DLB is never coming back". Please don't state your personal opinions as facts. You insult the intelligence of everyone who happens across your posts.


Not for nothing JL, but isn't that _your _personal opinion stated as fact?

BJ


----------



## James Long

Nope ... not stated as a fact ...


----------



## anubys

boltjames said:


> As a humanitarian, I've commented many times on the validity of DLB, and my only beef with the survey is that its skewed by the disgruntled power users that find their way to tech discussion forums like this one. It's not the sample size; it's the inaccurate portrayal of the population. Get Mr. & Mrs. Camry to vote on DBS and that's going to devastate the current conclusion that one draws from the "poll".
> 
> BJ


Humanitarian?



> One who is devoted to the promotion of human welfare and the advancement of social reforms; a philanthropist


ok...when we start talking about the promotion of human welfare, I'll cede the chair to you as an expert...

but when we talk about statistics and surveys, I'd like the podium, please...

it is my *expert* opinion that this survey -- as well as the previous one -- is perfectly valid and indicative of the true feeling of the population...


----------



## JBernardK

anubys said:


> but when we talk about statistics and surveys, I'd like the podium, please...
> 
> it is my *expert* opinion that this survey -- as well as the previous one -- is perfectly valid and indicative of the true feeling of the population...


The sample size is fine, but what about the selection of the sample? It is probably a sample of high end users and not a truly random sample.


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> You can't merge both surveys as most people would be counted twice as they'd be included in both populations.


Fine, then we have two _seperate_ surveys that show that same results.

Which makes the case for users wanting DLB even stronger.

Thanks for pointing that out, BJ


----------



## anubys

JBernardK said:


> The sample size is fine, but what about the selection of the sample? It is probably a sample of high end users and not a truly random sample.


Like I said...the Mods don't want this to become a statistical discussion...so I want to remain within the rules...I've made the arguments in the previous poll...I can take it offline in PMs if you like...

the short answer is that there is no reason to suspect the people on this forum would have an inherent bias towards DLB...

any user -- regardless of their technical knowledge -- is more likely than not to want DLB once it is explained to them...


----------



## MikeR7

anubys said:


> any user -- regardless of their technical knowledge -- is more likely than not to want DLB once it is explained to them...


I am sorry. I don't agree with this statement. And since neither of us have any way of actually proving our position, we will have to agree to disagree. :lol:


----------



## anubys

MikeR7 said:


> I am sorry. I don't agree with this statement. And since neither of us have any way of actually proving our position, we will have to agree to disagree. :lol:


you can disagree if you want...but I have data (see poll results above) to backup my claim


----------



## boltjames

anubys said:


> you can disagree if you want...but I have data (see poll results above) to backup my claim


Please don't state your personal data as facts. You insult the intelligence of everyone who happens across your posts.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

But Boltjames, anubys is not taking _his personal data_ as facts, he is taking very public data and using his personal expertise as explaining his point of view. Two very different things.

You, on the other hand, are quoting a suggestion meant for you and trying to (it seems to me) peevishly apply it to another member here. Pot calling kettle black?

The polls are sized and administered well enough to be applied to larger audience. The very delicate and tricky part is the analysis of what that larger audience is.

My suggestion to anyone is don't bet more than you are really willing to risk on this topic...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> But Boltjames, anubys is not taking _his personal data_ as facts, he is taking very public data and using his personal expertise as explaining his point of view. Two very different things.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are quoting a suggestion meant for you and trying to (it seems to me) peevishly apply it to another member here. Pot calling kettle black?
> 
> The polls are sized and administered well enough to be applied to larger audience. The very delicate and tricky part is the analysis of what that larger audience is.
> 
> My suggestion to anyone is don't bet more than you are really willing to risk on this topic...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Was just joking around sir. My apologies. I will pray for DLB tonight.

BJ


----------



## Rich

anubys said:


> the short answer is that there is no reason to suspect the people on this forum would have an inherent bias towards DLB...


Paranoia runs rampant thru our society. I just got accused of being a paid employee (in terms less genteel) of D*. First time that ever happened. I'm so proud.



> any user -- regardless of their technical knowledge -- is more likely than not to want DLB once it is explained to them...


First, let me say that I totally agree with this statement.

I've been time shifting since the early 80s and before I became a D* customer I had at least 12 VCRs recording cable shows every day. When I found out what a DVR was, I was hooked. Ultimate TV DVRs, then TiVos, now 20/21s.

What I don't understand is, why do people with DVRs watch live TV? Seems like you can do the same thing by recording the two shows you want to see and watching them after they have recorded for a while. Is that not how DLBs work?

I realize that different people have different viewing habits and I don't expect everyone to use the DVRs as I do. I rarely, almost never, watch live TV.

Isn't there a possibility that enabling DLBs will put a strain on the HDs that doesn't exist today?

Rich


----------



## Tom Robertson

rich584 said:


> Paranoia runs rampant thru our society. I just got accused of being a paid employee (in terms less genteel) of D*. First time that ever happened. I'm so proud.
> ...
> What I don't understand is, why do people with DVRs watch live TV? Seems like you can do the same thing by recording the two shows you want to see and watching them after they have recorded for a while. Is that not how DLBs work?
> ...
> Rich


Congratulations, you've joined an elite group here to be (incorrectly) named a DIRECTV employee. You're prize awaits in the secret room...

Live TV: NFL!!!  (Others might think of other sports like curling, yachting, or bass fishing...) :eek2: 
Elections!
Breaking News of slow speed chases

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> Was just joking around sir. My apologies. I will pray for DLB tonight.
> 
> BJ


It's about time Bolt....


----------



## dennisj00

I guess old habits are hard to break but there are just some things that I watch live when possible. (Sports, News, even some series)

And the DLB is quicker and easier than setting up 2 recordings, picking them from the playlist, and later deleting the recordings. I did it for 5 years or so with a Sat-60 tivo.

Many other reasons, it's easy to pause one program while checking others or looking for something to record.

Currently with the HR2x, it's almost impossible to see what's going on with the other tuner - unless it's recording something - or losing the current buffer. 

It is impossible to check another program without losing the current buffer without setting up a recording - why the extra steps?

Everyone uses it differently, but there are many advantages to DLB if implemented correctly. Right now, I'd like a reliable SLB!


----------



## r00db0y

rich584 said:


> What I don't understand is, why do people with DVRs watch live TV? Seems like you can do the same thing by recording the two shows you want to see and watching them after they have recorded for a while. Is that not how DLBs work?
> 
> Rich


My simple answer: Sports.

In particular the sports packages where many games are played simultaneously. Sunday Ticket and the HR10-250 was a completely new experience for me that I really miss with the HR20. I like being able to timeshift 2 games (and even switch the two games that I time shifted - depending on how the games progressed) and watch them both very close to live (just switch between commercials, punts, kickoffs, injuries, etc).

Recording 2 3hr football games is not practical (in my opinion) in HD because of the other programming that gets deleted for the space needed.

I would still use DLB with regular programming on the HR10-250 - but recording is much more feasible for regular programs - so if that was my only use for DLB - I could live without it.

This NFL season - I had to live without DLB and found myself watching the RedZone Channel in HD to catch all of the good action that was going on in the simultaneous games. What chapps me a bit is that D* charges an additional $99 for the SuperFan package (which gets you the RedZone Channel) on top of the already high priced NFL Sunday ticket.

I guess this is enough of a rant for a simple answer - but for the record - I would really like to have DLB functionality on the HR2x series.


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> It's about time Bolt....












BJ


----------



## Que

Nice, thanks BJ!


----------



## diverdra

boltjames said:


> Please don't state your personal data as facts. You insult the intelligence of everyone who happens across your posts.
> 
> BJ


My wife reads this forum as much as I do and she just pointed out the reason bolt doesn't think DLB is of value is because he may not be able to process multi-threads. Now I feel badly about all those names I called BJ.
__________________
HR10-250 HD DVR, HR21 (X2), LG HD Rec, AT9 Dish/WB68
Mitsubishi Diamond 73" DLP - Pioneer Elite 62" RPTV
Denon AVR 3808ci - AVR 2105
Sony PS3 80GB + 160GB HD - PS3 80 GB
Oppo DV-981HD (for DVD Audio)
Klipsch RF-5 Ref. Speakers & RSW-10d Sub - Infinity Ref. Std. 4B
Panamax M5300-PM - M4300-EX


----------



## boltjames

diverdra said:


> My wife reads this forum as much as I do and she just pointed out the reason bolt doesn't think DLB is of value is because he may not be able to process multi-threads. Now I feel badly about all those names I called BJ.


Please post pics of your wife's feet.

BJ


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

:scratch: 

:backtotop


----------



## SPACEMAKER

When I first switched from Comcast to D* back in October I missed DLB very much. But over the past few months I have grown accustomed to the workaround and/or simply recording more programs due to how user friendly the HR20 is when it comes to recording.


----------



## Trebman

Hi all, 
My first post. I have had my new HR21 for 20 hours. I too miss the DLB capability. I think it is dreadful they didn't include it.

Does anyone know *why* they left it out?


----------



## kanderna

Trebman said:


> Does anyone know *why* they left it out?


Oh boy. Waking the beast! :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Trebman said:


> Hi all,
> My first post. I have had my new HR21 for 20 hours. I too miss the DLB capability. I think it is dreadful they didn't include it.
> 
> Does anyone know *why* they left it out?


:welcome_s to DBSTalk!!

check out posts #4 and #5 of this thread...


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> Congratulations, you've joined an elite group here to be (incorrectly) named a DIRECTV employee.


I was stunned. And oddly, quite proud.



> Live TV: NFL!!!


I record at least three NFL games every Sunday, and watch them one by one. Takes about three hours. I use "painter's" tape" to cover the scores of other games until I get to the last game. Just a preference. The Monday night game I record and watch the next morning. Late evenings are reserved for reading.



> (Others might think of other sports like curling, yachting, or bass fishing...) :eek2:
> Elections!
> Breaking News of slow speed chases


Believe me, Tom, I've given this a lot of thought. I really don't watch anything live unless it's, as you suggested, breaking news. It's been over twenty years since I watched a show at home that wasn't recorded. My wife and son watch some live TV by themselves. Different strokes.

Rich


----------



## Rich

But, don't you think that the way you watch TV kind of defeats the whole "time shifting" paradigm? As soon as VCRs became affordable, I started time shifting and really prefer to watch what I want, when I want to. DVRs are perfectly suited to my viewing habits. VOD is a form of time shifting. I had all those TiVos (and at one time or another, I think I had every brand and model that was supported by D*) and I never used the DLBs. Never even occurred to me. Since I joined the forum, I have used the DLBs on my TiVos and see no reason for them. Just my opinion.

Rich



dennisj00 said:


> I guess old habits are hard to break but there are just some things that I watch live when possible. (Sports, News, even some series)


----------



## Rich

r00db0y said:


> My simple answer: Sports.
> 
> In particular the sports packages where many games are played simultaneously. Sunday Ticket and the HR10-250 was a completely new experience for me that I really miss with the HR20. I like being able to timeshift 2 games (and even switch the two games that I time shifted - depending on how the games progressed) and watch them both very close to live (just switch between commercials, punts, kickoffs, injuries, etc).


I have the capability of recording twelve HD games and six SD games, at the same time, of any sport.



> Recording 2 3hr football games is not practical (in my opinion) in HD because of the other programming that gets deleted for the space needed.


I have eSATAs on each 20/21 and large SD HDs on the others. No problem with space.



> I would still use DLB with regular programming on the HR10-250 - but recording is much more feasible for regular programs - so if that was my only use for DLB - I could live without it.
> 
> This NFL season - I had to live without DLB and found myself watching the RedZone Channel in HD to catch all of the good action that was going on in the simultaneous games. What chapps me a bit is that D* charges an additional $99 for the SuperFan package (which gets you the RedZone Channel) on top of the already high priced NFL Sunday ticket.
> 
> I guess this is enough of a rant for a simple answer - but for the record - I would really like to have DLB functionality on the HR2x series.


I can't get past the idea that DLBs will screw up the 20/21s. TiVos random rebooting problem has been widely blamed on the DLBs. I don't really believe that, but I've had a lot of problems with the 20s and I can't imagine them incorporating DLB usage and not causing other major problems with the 20/21s.

They just screwed up a lot of 21-700s with their last NR. Imagine throwing in the impact of DLBs if D* doesn't do it just right? Which they rarely do.

Rich


----------



## Rich

diverdra said:


> My wife reads this forum as much as I do and she just pointed out the reason bolt doesn't think DLB is of value is because he may not be able to process multi-threads.


What does that have to do with multi-tasking? Or are you putting multiple windows with multiple threads on your monitor?

Rich


----------



## boltjames

rich584 said:


> I think I had every brand and model that was supported by D* and I never used the DLBs. Never even occurred to me. Since I joined the forum, I have used the DLBs on my TiVos and see no reason for them. Just my opinion.
> 
> Rich


And there you have it. Another average user is heard from. DLB just doesn't matter to most. That's why [I believe] it's not coming back.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> DLB just doesn't matter to most.


Source please? Facts not in evidence.


----------



## Lord Vader

Don't you just hate rash generalizations by unknowledgeable persons?


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> And there you have it. Another average user is heard from. DLB just doesn't matter to most. That's why [I believe] it's not coming back.
> 
> BJ


Yep, Rich584 is obviously an average user. He has stated that he never watches Live TV and records everything, and that DLB doesn't matter to him because of it.

So where is the data that shows the percentage of pure recording viewers outnumbers those Live TV viewers? I guess there are no Sports subscription and news fanatics out there.


----------



## dennisj00

and with 6 HD DVRs and at least 3 SD DVRs - most with larger drives -- OBVIOUSLY an average user!


----------



## Drew2k

I have 8 DVRs, but only 2 SD. That's not typical?


----------



## DblD_Indy

Glad to see this issue is still being talked about.

I would love to see DLB appear on a future upgrade but DTV's lack of attention and action towards fixing this issue lead me to believe the only way a Direct TV user will get DLB back is live out your contract and switch to Dish Network. I know I would be loosing a few HD channels but many I don't watch. According to http://www.whereishd.com/ I am looking at loosing 20 or so HD channels.

My lack of being able to easily swap back and forth between NASCAR and NFL has already caused me to cancel both my NASCAR Hot Pass and my NFL Sunday Ticket.

Like some here I don't feel that it should be necessary to have 6 DVR units to be able to watch what I want when I want because that changes from time to time I just need the ability to toggle between what I want with out the restriction of having to record both shows.

Thanks to you who keep the good fight going!


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Source please? Facts not in evidence.


Because if it was more important to the majority of the D* userbase it would have remained a feature on D*'s proprietary DVR. They added scores of new features and kept the must-have's.

The evidence you seek is the very fact that it's _not _on the DVR. At the very moment their DVR was going from a rich-man's plaything to a set-top-box for the masses, at the very moment that they were adding tons of new HD channels and launching a billion dollars worth of rockets and satellites, at the very moment that FIOS and other competitors were heating things up, at the very moment that new customer acquisition meant the most, they eliminated DLB from the DVR they themselves designed to last until 2010.

That's evidence my friend. Actually, its the end of the argument in favor of it coming back too.

BJ


----------



## Que

DblD_Indy said:


> Glad to see this issue is still being talked about.
> 
> I would love to see DLB appear on a future upgrade but DTV's lack of attention and action towards fixing this issue lead me to believe the only way a Direct TV user will get DLB back is live out your contract and switch to Dish Network. I know I would be loosing a few HD channels but many I don't watch. According to http://www.whereishd.com/ I am looking at loosing 20 or so HD channels.
> 
> My lack of being able to easily swap back and forth between NASCAR and NFL has already caused me to cancel both my NASCAR Hot Pass and my NFL Sunday Ticket.
> 
> Like some here I don't feel that it should be necessary to have 6 DVR units to be able to watch what I want when I want because that changes from time to time I just need the ability to toggle between what I want with out the restriction of having to record both shows.
> 
> Thanks to you who keep the good fight going!


Before you drop DirecTV you might want to send a letter to "Office of the President" I really wish everyone that wanted DLB would send one out.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103897


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Don't you just hate rash generalizations by unknowledgeable persons?


Respectfully, sometimes you need to be a bit emotionally disconnected from a situation to see it clearly.

It's like how the husband and wife in the midst of a bad relationship headed to divorce are the last to realize it. Everyone else in their mix of friends and family sees it coming years earlier.

Don't let your love for DLB blind you from the facts. It's not on D*'s proprietary DVR at the very moment that every feature counts in the high-stakes, multi-billion dollar gamble of HD customer retention and acquisition. 2006-2010 will be looked back upon as the period where this industry settled down and determined who the big players will be in the television delivery marketplace. Just like cable took over in the 1980's, it's all-or-nothing during the span of the HR20's lifetime. DLB is not on the box. How can it be deemed "important" to D* when it was one of the only HR10 features eliminated at the very moment they'd need it the most?

Answer the question.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Because if it was more important to the majority of the D* userbase it would have remained a feature on D*'s proprietary DVR. They added scores of new features and kept the must-have's.
> 
> The evidence you seek is the very fact that it's _not _on the DVR. At the very moment their DVR was going from a rich-man's plaything to a set-top-box for the masses, at the very moment that they were adding tons of new HD channels and launching a billion dollars worth of rockets and satellites, at the very moment that FIOS and other competitors were heating things up, at the very moment that new customer acquisition meant the most, they eliminated DLB from the DVR they themselves designed to last until 2010.
> 
> That's evidence my friend. Actually, its the end of the argument in favor of it coming back too.
> 
> BJ


Wow, do you know how to spin, or what? You made a claim that DLB doesn't matter to most. That requires statistics to back that up, yet all you can cite is anecdotal evidence and rehash arguments. Wake me up when you can provide some stats as to the public's lack of interest in DLB. Until then, I'll go with the stats from this poll that most DBSTalk DVR users are indeed in favor of DLB.
*
Oh, by the way, thakns again for keeping the DLB fight alive! It's like when a bell rings and an angel gets its wings... When BoltJames posts, the DLB post and view count gets higher!* :up:


----------



## boltjames

DblD_Indy said:


> Glad to see this issue is still being talked about.


It's the NFL offseason and summer's right around the corner. It'll go back into hibernation in June. Strictly for entertainment purposes in March.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Wow, do you know how to spin, or what? You made a claim that DLB doesn't matter to most. That requires statistics to back that up, yet all you can cite is anecdotal evidence and rehash arguments. Wake me up when you can provide some stats as to the public's lack of interest in DLB. Until then, I'll go with the stats from this poll that most DBSTalk DVR users are indeed in favor of DLB.


I'm not the spinmeister here. I'm just looking at what I see. Its dark out, the streets are wet, umbrellas are being used, windshield wipers are on, I don't need to step outside and look up to the sky to know that it's raining.

Please answer my question. Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature at the single most important time in their company's history? With their entire business model under seige from cable, telcom, and internet players, why would D* kill a feature that's supposedly so important and likely not that difficult to execute?

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Respectfully, sometimes you need to be a bit emotionally disconnected from a situation to see it clearly.


Pot, kettle, black.

Now you can explain how DLB is not an emotional issue for you, that you don't care how many people see this sticky thread and think there's something wrong with the DVR+ platform because the post counts are too high or the view counts are too high ...


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> I'm not the spinmeister here. I'm just looking at what I see. Its dark out, the streets are wet, umbrellas are being used, windshield wipers are on, I don't need to step outside and look up to the sky to know that it's raining.


Again with this? 



> Please answer my question. Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature at the single most important time in their company's history?


Again with this? It's been asked and answered. Many times. You've visited this thread and its predecessor often enough to know, yet it's not sinking in. Your question has nothing to do with your claim that most don't want DLB. Nothing. The fact that most homes don't have sprinkler systems doesn't mean most people don't want to be safe from a fire.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Your question has nothing to do with your claim that most don't want DLB. Nothing. The fact that most homes don't have sprinkler systems doesn't mean most people don't want to be safe from a fire.


Let's not mix up the three talking points that I've raised in this thread. We're on #3 right now:

1. Most people don't want DLB.

2. This thread detracts from the greatness that is the HR20.

3. The quest "for" DLB is answered by the lack of it on D*'s proprietary DVR.

So, back on point, please answer the question.

Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature at the single most important time in their company's history?

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature at the single most important time in their company's history?
> 
> BJ


Because they are:

1) Arrogant
2) Ignorant
3) Litigation Paranoid

Now that they have the Replay TV assets (and I hope employees to some degree) maybe they will overcome their deficiencies.


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> And there you have it. Another average user is heard from. DLB just doesn't matter to most. That's why [I believe] it's not coming back.
> 
> BJ


Huh. So far I've been anointed by P Smith as "normal", by an enraged poster as a paid employee of D* and now "average". I seem to be getting stranger as I age.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Yep, Rich584 is obviously an average user. He has stated that he never watches Live TV and records everything, and that DLB doesn't matter to him because of it.
> 
> So where is the data that shows the percentage of pure recording viewers outnumbers those Live TV viewers? I guess there are no Sports subscription and news fanatics out there.


So you consider me an anomaly? From "normal", to a shill for D* to "average" to this. I'm glad I don't have self esteem issues.

Rich :icon_kiff


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> and with 6 HD DVRs and at least 3 SD DVRs - most with larger drives -- OBVIOUSLY an average user!


Bear in mind, P Smith has certified me as "normal".

Rich


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> I have 8 DVRs, but only 2 SD. That's not typical?


Ah, I'm not alone!

Rich


----------



## Rich

DblD_Indy said:


> My lack of being able to easily swap back and forth between NASCAR and NFL has already caused me to cancel both my NASCAR Hot Pass and my NFL Sunday Ticket.


The DLB for sports I can kind of see, but using DLBs for activities such as NASCAR baffles me. (This should start a mild fire storm :icon_kiff.)



> Like some here I don't feel that it should be necessary to have 6 DVR units to be able to watch what I want when I want


You don't need six, one will do just fine.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Because if it was more important to the majority of the D* userbase it would have remained a feature on D*'s proprietary DVR. They added scores of new features and kept the must-have's.
> 
> The evidence you seek is the very fact that it's _not _on the DVR. At the very moment their DVR was going from a rich-man's plaything to a set-top-box for the masses, at the very moment that they were adding tons of new HD channels and launching a billion dollars worth of rockets and satellites, at the very moment that FIOS and other competitors were heating things up, at the very moment that new customer acquisition meant the most, they eliminated DLB from the DVR they themselves designed to last until 2010.
> 
> That's evidence my friend. Actually, its the end of the argument in favor of it coming back too.
> 
> BJ


Now, that is a wonderfully logical argument! Well said!

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Respectfully, sometimes you need to be a bit emotionally disconnected from a situation to see it clearly.
> 
> It's like how the husband and wife in the midst of a bad relationship headed to divorce are the last to realize it. Everyone else in their mix of friends and family sees it coming years earlier.
> 
> Don't let your love for DLB blind you from the facts. It's not on D*'s proprietary DVR at the very moment that every feature counts in the high-stakes, multi-billion dollar gamble of HD customer retention and acquisition. 2006-2010 will be looked back upon as the period where this industry settled down and determined who the big players will be in the television delivery marketplace. Just like cable took over in the 1980's, it's all-or-nothing during the span of the HR20's lifetime. DLB is not on the box. How can it be deemed "important" to D* when it was one of the only HR10 features eliminated at the very moment they'd need it the most?


It's unfortunate that logic rarely works well on this forum, or any forum. But I agree, for what my "average" opinion is worth.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

boltjames said:


> 2. This thread detracts from the greatness that is the HR20.
> 
> BJ


*GREATNESS*?? !! I currently don't see any *Greatness* of the HR2x! I've been involved with the HR20 since September 07 and there's two reasons HR2x's aren't being thrown in the garbage:

1. Contracts
2. HD Content

Like cell phone companies D* has current subscribers by the short ones and HD content is drawing record number of new subscribers. The HR2x is the only game in town. Wouldn't it be nice if the only cell phone available from your provider rebooted during calls or failed to connect! But it had lots of features - camera that didn't work, no need for texting, etc.!

But the HR20 has had and continues to have severe problems with core DVR functions like RECORDING, PLAYBACK, FastForward, REWIND and even playing from the live buffer (Single Live Buffer).

Not only from the CEers -- we can expect some anomalies but I never expected the core DVR functions to have the problems for the non- CEers.

I've got friends (yes, Average users with only 1 or 2 dvrs) that are on NR and have blank recordings or missed recordings or don't understand frozen video or audio or stuttering audio and get the "Press the red button and try it again" from Customer service on a box that's been in the field going on 2 years?

I love the HD programming and I like the CE program but I'm not sure all the 'features' that we know about are going to make it.

The only 'feature' I like or really needed that I've seen in the 6 months I've had the boxes is 30SKIP -- but my TIVOs had that 2 weeks after I got one! Yes, it was a hack but my friends loved it from the first time they saw it.

And the hardware itself -- it took 5 boxes to get 2 that work. I'm not sure Dell or HP could survive with that 'greatness'!

As much as I want DLB - and as much as BJ spins his argument (or dodges the facts!), I'm not sure it's not a fundamental technical reason that it's not happening.

At this point, I'll take a working / reliable SLB and hopefully, soon a working /reliable MRV.


----------



## Lord Vader

Dennis, using BJ's "logic," the fact that 30-second skip isn't a standard feature of the TIVO DVRs--one has to hack the unit to get it or use the backdoor code--obviously means DirecTV believes no one wants it. Right?


----------



## dennisj00

You're right - not really logic, just political bs/spin!

No hacking was required for 30skip, just the 'wiggle, wiggle, shake, shake' that my wife called it (the remote code entry) But it was simple enough to remember that my friends used it from first sight!

No real difference from searching on '30SKIP' except you had to redo after a reboot.

Are there any instructions on setting 30SKIP for the 'average' user?


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> You're right - not really logic, just political bs/spin!


That was the most logical argument I've seen on this subject. Just because his argument doesn't fit your needs doesn't mean it is illogical.



> No hacking was required for 30skip, just the 'wiggle, wiggle, shake, shake' that my wife called it (the remote code entry) But it was simple enough to remember that my friends used it from first sight!


That is considered a "hack".



> No real difference from searching on '30SKIP' except you had to redo after a reboot.


I wanted the skip and when I got it, I missed the slip and went back to it. The skip didn't work as well as the TiVos, and I am now used to the slip.



> Are there any instructions on setting 30SKIP for the 'average' user?


Yes, you just go to the search function and type in "30skip", if I remember correctly. Hit exit and you've got the skip.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

I was just wondering where these instructions are - since the 'average' user doesn't come to dbstalk.

Were they in a message in the NR? I've never been on a NR. - except for 2 days before the first Friday night.

And I'm not sure that qualifies as a 'hack' since the code was there to execute it - no more that the 30skip change.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Let's not mix up the three talking points that I've raised in this thread. We're on #3 right now:


But you still haven't proven #1, which is where I've been ...



> 1. Most people don't want DLB.


Prove it. (You can't.)



> 2. This thread detracts from the greatness that is the HR20.


Your personal opinion, not a factual statement. But since you believe it, why do you continue to bump up the post counts to this thread by posting anti-DLB rhetoric?



> 3. The quest "for" DLB is answered by the lack of it on D*'s proprietary DVR.


The facct that DLB was not included in the DVR+ software does not say it will never be there, nor does it say that it's not a desired feature. You're drawing conclusions without merit.



> So, back on point, please answer the question.


I'll indulge you even though you've yet to support your claim that most people don't want DLB, which is what I've been after from you today. DLB was not included in the DVR+ software because DIRECTV has another feature to be released and DLB will interfere with it. This has been discussed in this thread and its predecessor, but you choose to see the present lack of DLB as a permanent state, and we don't know that. DIRECTV made a choice: Implement DLB to the detraction of Feature X, or don't implement DLB and support Feature X instead. They chose Feature X. Doesn't mean in the future we won't see DLB, yet you continue to crap all over the people who want it, even when you yourself said you like it.



> Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature ...


Asked and answered.


> at the single most important time in their company's history?


More rhetoric! Why is THIS the single most important time in the company's history?

Just nonsense in search of a forum, and you've found it. So congratulations!


----------



## boltjames

rich584 said:


> Now, that is a wonderfully logical argument! Well said!
> 
> Rich


Not only am I a Rich fan, but I'm a Yankee fan too. Went to Tampa a few weeks back to see them at training camp; no, the stadium scoreboard did not have DLB.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> *GREATNESS*?? !! I currently don't see any *Greatness* of the HR2x! ......had and continues to have severe problems with core DVR functions like RECORDING, PLAYBACK, FastForward, REWIND and even playing from the live buffer (Single Live Buffer).


With all due respect, this is another ghost just like DLB.

I have two HR20's. I have no problems nor have I ever had any problems with core DVR functions like recording, playback, FF, REW, SLB, guide, missed shows, sound dropouts, random locking, sporadic rebooting. Nothing. Zero. Nada. Donut.

If I, and millions of other H20 owners, are not having any problems such as you describe, perhaps you should consider that you did something with your CE experiments, have defective units, and/or something physical with the dish/coax that's causing your issues.

All consumer electronics products have their share of defectives, and perhaps its unfair to blame the beloved HR20 for your issues. Mine being perfect can't be the anomoly here. The outcry, blogging, screams for recalls, apologetic letters, and unsubscribes would have hit the radar by now. Nothing. Zero. Nada.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Dennis, using BJ's "logic," the fact that 30-second skip isn't a standard feature of the TIVO DVRs--one has to hack the unit to get it or use the backdoor code--obviously means DirecTV believes no one wants it. Right?


Now, now. That's a backhanded way to appease the advertisers. And my mom doesn't have the 30 second skip and she doesn't miss it because she never had it.

That's another big reason why DLB isn't coming [in my opinion] back; Mr. & Mrs. Camry never knew it was there to begin with.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> I was just wondering where these instructions are - since the 'average' user doesn't come to dbstalk.
> 
> Were they in a message in the NR? I've never been on a NR. - except for 2 days before the first Friday night.
> 
> And I'm not sure that qualifies as a 'hack' since the code was there to execute it - no more that the 30skip change.


You're supporting my point (thank you).

The average HR20 user doesn't come to DBS therefore the average HR20 user doesn't know about the 30 second skip hack. Therefore if D* eliminated that backdoor in the next firmware update the average user wouldn't be upset at D* because they never knew it was there.

See the analogy to DLB? Thanks again. You rock.

BJ


----------



## dennisj00

Mister BJ obviously doesn't read other threads on the board. Or even read this thread correctly.

I was describing problems that my friends have -- and other non-CEers on this board - not my installation. Not my 'CE Experiments'.

There are many threads here of non-CEers that have problems with core functions on NR. And the friends that I know have problems and don't come to dbstalk. But they know the D* 800 number by heart!

"All consumer electronics products have their share of defectives" amazes me that when I'm shipped a box - it doesn't work out of the box. Like I said, I don't think Dell or HP have that kind of record on a much more complex box.

More drivel to dodge the issues.


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> I was just wondering where these instructions are - since the 'average' user doesn't come to dbstalk.


I alway wonder how the "little old lady from Pasadena" deals with these things. I have a widow living next door who always comes to me for help with her computer or cable system. But how many people don't have that luxury and what do they do? Obviously, the brighter ones find a place like this. But I'd be willing to bet that there are thousands of 20/21s out there that are never used for recording. Or if they do record something it is with the "record now" function. In other words a live show.

I just read a book that touched on the level of intelligence in this country. Intelligence being the ability to learn. It showed a bell curve with the majority of the people studied being of average intelligence. On the left side were, how can I put this, not bright people. On the right side were very intelligent people. Bottom line: 75% of the population is NOT on the right side of the curve. From not very smart to average intelligence. 75%. I would like to think that the majority of the members of this forum fall into the remaining 25%.



> Were they in a message in the NR? I've never been on a NR. - except for 2 days before the first Friday night.


I found out by reading the release notes on the NR for the 700. The notes did not tell you how to do it, just that you could do it.

If I remember correctly Earl posted how to do that hack. What I didn't understand was that all you had to do was type in "30skip" in the "search for programs" window and exit the window. I couldn't get past not having to press something like an "Enter" or "Select" key after entering the "30skip". I guess you could call that a computer paradigm. Paradigms limit the ability of an intelligent person to learn.



> And I'm not sure that qualifies as a 'hack' since the code was there to execute it - no more that the 30skip change.


For a number of reasons, I read a lot of manuals that dealt with hacking TiVos. In everyone I read, the changing of the "to the end of the recording" button was referred to as the "30 second hack". Hacks are not just physical.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> You're supporting my point (thank you).
> 
> The average HR20 user doesn't come to DBS therefore the average HR20 user doesn't know about the 30 second skip hack. Therefore if D* eliminated that backdoor in the next firmware update the average user wouldn't be upset at D* because they never knew it was there.
> 
> See the analogy to DLB? Thanks again. You rock.
> 
> BJ


I doubt if D* could change the ability of the user to do that hack. Not without an agreement with TiVo. I think that part of the TiVos belong to TiVo and not D*. Since TiVo is unable or unwilling to stop the random booting of SD TiVos running 6.3, I doubt if they really care all that much about D*'s TiVos. That random rebooting has been going on for over six months. I think TiVo and D* will eventually come to a complete parting of the ways.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> With all due respect, this is another ghost just like DLB.
> 
> I have two HR20's. I have no problems nor have I ever had any problems with core DVR functions like recording, playback, FF, REW, SLB, guide, missed shows, sound dropouts, random locking, sporadic rebooting. Nothing. Zero. Nada. Donut.
> 
> If I, and millions of other H20 owners, are not having any problems such as you describe, perhaps you should consider that you did something with your CE experiments, have defective units, and/or something physical with the dish/coax that's causing your issues.
> 
> All consumer electronics products have their share of defectives, and perhaps its unfair to blame the beloved HR20 for your issues. Mine being perfect can't be the anomoly here. The outcry, blogging, screams for recalls, apologetic letters, and unsubscribes would have hit the radar by now. Nothing. Zero. Nada.


Consider yourself blessed. I'm not going to go into what I and others went thru in 06 and last year, but all that stuff you're disavowing happened to a lot of us. Over and over, time after time. But I wasn't going back to cable and Dish doesn't have YES, so it was a no brainer. I stuck it out. What amazes me is that so many others on this forum hung in. Most impressive.

Now I have what I wanted in the first place. A HD DVR that records and plays back HD programs. That is not what I got in November of 2006.

And I never would have made it without this forum.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Not only am I a Rich fan, but I'm a Yankee fan too. Went to Tampa a few weeks back to see them at training camp; no, the stadium scoreboard did not have DLB.
> 
> BJ


Ya know, I have the utmost respect for Baron Von Steingrabber, but I really liked the name "Legend's Field". "Steinbrenner Stadium" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> "All consumer electronics products have their share of defectives" amazes me that when I'm shipped a box - it doesn't work out of the box. Like I said, I don't think Dell or HP have that kind of record on a much more complex box.


Bad examples. I used to teach computer classes at a college. Every computer lab had at least 40 Dells in it. The biggest had over a hundred. Big lab. The college had a deal with Dell, and every computer in the labs and offices were Dells. In the labs, I would consider myself fortunate if half the computers functioned properly. I wouldn't buy a Dell because I saw firsthand how easily they failed.

I bought an HP Slimline late last year. Wicked fast. Talked to a person at HP that lived in the states and was very helpful and easy to understand. Then I had a question that needed to be answered by HP's technical support. In downtown Bombay. I speak American English and I don't understand Indian English, British English or Irish English if they are spoken too fast. Couldn't understand a word he said. I really like my HP computer, but I will never buy another one. And if I had known about the tech support, I wouldn't have bought this one.


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> Because if it was more important to the majority of the D* userbase it would have remained a feature on D*'s proprietary DVR.


That is still your OPINION ... a guess not a fact. There is another option ... DirecTV really messed up and instead of admitting it and adding DLB they are passing it off as unimportant.

Now I don't believe my statement any more that I believe yours ... but that is the point ... they are both statements of OPINION ... not fact.



boltjames said:


> Let's not mix up the three talking points that I've raised in this thread.
> 1. Most people don't want DLB.
> 2. This thread detracts from the greatness that is the HR20.
> 3. The quest "for" DLB is answered by the lack of it on D*'s proprietary DVR.


So those are the points you're trying to make? Could have fooled most of us ... you have not come close to proving any of them.


----------



## boltjames

*James Long That is still your OPINION ... a guess not a fact. There is another option ... DirecTV really messed up and instead of admitting it and adding DLB they are passing it off as unimportant.*

The thing I find most difficult to comprehend (insert snappy comeback here) is why the engineers and designers from D* who are undoubtedly power DVR users themselves built something without it. You'd think that they, like many of you, would think it's a must-have. Perhaps their study of users navigational behavior led them to see the light and thus its elimination. Hard to believe that something that power users like them would think is extremely germaine to a DVR would just get whacked like that.

*Now I don't believe my statement any more that I believe yours ... but that is the point ... they are both statements of OPINION ... not fact.*

I believe I have been abiding by your request and have been putting "my opinion" where appropriate. No one else is being asked to do so, but you're the boss and me wantie no trouble.

*So those are the points you're trying to make? Could have fooled most of us ... you have not come close to proving any of them. *

Maybe its because I'm really not trying to prove it because I don't have to. The onus is not on me to prove that DLB isn't wanted and that the HR20 is an amazing device. That's already proven. If DLB were mission-critical, there would be more outcry than 900 votes on an internet poll; D* would be under tremendous pressure to make an adjustment. Similarly, if the HR20 was a clunker there would be huge issues and massive opt-outs on contracts.

All indications are that customers are happy with the absence of DLB and are happy with the DVR's functionality. Today's internet allows an angry mob to gather rather quickly and bring issues to a head for the betterment of the product. The iPod Nano with it's scratching screen, the iPod Classic with its battery issues, the iPhone price reduction outcry, transmissions in GM SUV's, and on and on.

"Proof" is there for all to see, but there are some that just don't want to. You don't need me to prove anything; you need me to remind everyone and keep a reality check in place. No, you don't need to thank me. I accept that responsibility. The wonderful engineers at D* and the fabulous HR20 are deserving of my time in this regard. We have it so, so good and someone needs to be the voice of thanks. Look at all the HD channels. Look at all the new DVR features. Look at the quality of the MPEG4 image. Look at the rock-solid performance. We are blessed.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> *The thing I find most difficult to comprehend (insert snappy comeback here) is why the engineers and designers from D* who are undoubtedly power DVR users themselves built something without it.
> BJ*


*

Why are you assuming that the DirecTV engineers that developed the HR2x series are power DVR users? I have talked to the so called Power DVR engineers via tech support phone calls, and they expressed amazement that anyone would want to watch two live programs via DLB. They obviously don't watch much live sports subscription programming.

DirecTV expresses a desire to secure high value & profitable customers for their subscriber base. IMHO, the sports subscription subscribers are the definition of such high value subscribers given the multi-hundreds of dollars that they contribute. Eliminating DLB just frustrates those target rich subscribers, and adds doubt to their loyalty towards maintaining their commitments.*


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> ....
> Why would D* eliminate such an "important" feature at the single most important time in their company's history?
> 
> BJ


IMHO, it's because implementation of *DLB* interfered with (or at least dovetails into) other features.

It was put off until it became very difficult to just code it in.

I believe it's apparent in the fact that in the beginning Directv said they were looking into how to implement *DLB*.

I think that saying it's not there because nobody wants it is overly simplistic and ignores certain facts that have been presented in both threads.

Mike


----------



## crashHD

DLB's and MRV are core components of my television viewing experience. In fact, if I were to make a list of the things I want for a satisfactory TV experience, it would be as follows:

1 Electricity
2 DVR
3 MRV
4 DLB
5 HD

I'd like to get HD, but I can't, without giving up things that are a higher priority to me.

Just my $.04 ($.02 doesn't cut it anymore).


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> The thing I find most difficult to comprehend (insert snappy comeback here) is why the engineers and designers from D* who are undoubtedly power DVR users themselves built something without it. You'd think that they, like many of you, would think it's a must-have. Perhaps their study of users navigational behavior led them to see the light and thus its elimination. Hard to believe that something that power users like them would think is extremely germaine to a DVR would just get whacked like that.


More crass speculation ... but that is expected.



> I believe I have been abiding by your request and have been putting "my opinion" where appropriate. No one else is being asked to do so, but you're the boss and me wantie no trouble.


I'm not your boss ... you can make yourself look like whatever you like.

You were clearly asked for evidence and you gave unlabeled speculation ...

boltjames said:


> Because if it was more important to the majority of the D* userbase it would have remained a feature on D*'s proprietary DVR. They added scores of new features and kept the must-have's.
> 
> The evidence you seek is the very fact that it's _not _on the DVR.
> 
> That's evidence my friend. Actually, its the end of the argument in favor of it coming back too.





> The onus is not on me to prove that DLB isn't wanted and that the HR20 is an amazing device. That's already proven.


Really? I don't see any cNet reviews saying that the HR20 is better than Tivo. A decent DVR? Perhaps --- but an "amazing device"?

But it's really not the point ... and certainly not one of your three magic points. 



> The wonderful engineers at D* and the fabulous HR20 are deserving of my time in this regard. We have it so, so good and someone needs to be the voice of thanks. Look at all the HD channels. Look at all the new DVR features. Look at the quality of the MPEG4 image. Look at the rock-solid performance. We are blessed.


No, they won't send you a free one in thanks for your comments. 

No matter how much you try to downplay it DLB is a highly desired feature. Those who know of the feature from prior products miss it ... I doubt if the majority of HR20 users "in the wild" even know what it is let alone know that it is missing. (Yes, that is an opinion. Refute it if you can.) But among people who know what DLB is who have expressed an opinion in one or more polls on DBSTalk, DLB has been proven by vote to be highly desired.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> *James Long That is still your OPINION ... a guess not a fact. There is another option ... DirecTV really messed up and instead of admitting it and adding DLB they are passing it off as unimportant.*
> 
> The thing I find most difficult to comprehend (insert snappy comeback here) is why the engineers and designers from D* who are undoubtedly power DVR users themselves built something without it. You'd think that they, like many of you, would think it's a must-have. Perhaps their study of users navigational behavior led them to see the light and thus its elimination. Hard to believe that something that power users like them would think is extremely germaine to a DVR would just get whacked like that.


Asked and answered, but apparently BJ is ignoring my posts now. One more time: DLB was not included in the DVR+ software because it interfered with Feature X. Search the two DLB threads for more.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Asked and answered, but apparently BJ is ignoring my posts now. One more time: DLB was not included in the DVR+ software because it interfered with Feature X. Search the two DLB threads for more.


I'd never ignore your posts as you're a native Long Islander and I know that you're the person who is going to turn to the good side and embrace the HR20 for what it is, not what it isn't, and guide the rest of the DLB brigade towards the light.

Who said it interfered with Feature X? I don't recall Earl saying that. I recall him saying that he knew why DLB wasn't there but he couldn't tell anyone, which is extremely cool.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> No matter how much you try to downplay it DLB is a highly desired feature. Those who know of the feature from prior products miss it ... I doubt if the majority of HR20 users "in the wild" even know what it is let alone know that it is missing. (Yes, that is an opinion. Refute it if you can.) But among people who know what DLB is who have expressed an opinion in one or more polls on DBSTalk, DLB has been proven by vote to be highly desired.


I think we're on the same page. No need to refute. It's the answer as to why DLB isn't there and isn't [my opinion] coming back.

The HR10 was a $999 rich man's plaything. The HR20 is a $299 box for the masses. DLB was top of the list of things to be eliminated [my opinion] as it's appeciated by the tweaky gearhead and oblivious to Mr. & Mrs. Camry.

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator warning>Let's talk about DLB (in this thread) and not about other members, moderator actions, or other topics that aren't DLB.

Thanks,
TOm


----------



## Knon2000

Well, I am not rich, and I am not a "tweaky" gearhead. I had 5 HD- Tivo's once. I used DLB for sports, and that was pretty much it.
I really missed it when I started getting the HR20, however, I never was one to actually complain about it. The workaround for me was sufficient. I have 2 HR20's connected to the main TV, so I actually have better than DLB anyway.
Truth be known, I am a very happy user. 
I remember the old days of rabbit ears and missing shows simply since there were two on at the same time, and there was no such thing as a VCR back in those days, so, compared to that, I have it really, really good now


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Why are you assuming that the DirecTV engineers that developed the HR2x series are power DVR users? I have talked to the so called Power DVR engineers via tech support phone calls


Those people aren't engineers and aren't programmers. You're lucky if you get to talk to someone who even owns a DVR. I have spent too many hours talking to many people at all levels of the food chain at D* and I have yet to talk to someone who owns a DVR much less a "power user". I would consider myself a power user.



> and they expressed amazement that anyone would want to watch two live programs via DLB. They obviously don't watch much live sports subscription programming.


I still don't see why people use DVRs as receivers rather than take advantage of the recording functions. And those recording functions can replicate DLBs to a degree that is close enough to warrant not having DLBs.



> Eliminating DLB just frustrates those target rich subscribers


I've never considered myself rich. Don't have any money problems and buy a lot of "toys", but "rich"? No.



> and adds doubt to their loyalty towards maintaining their commitments.


If D* was really that worried about that, they would not have released the 20s until they were at the stage they are now.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Knon2000 said:


> Well, I am not rich, and I am not a "tweaky" gearhead. I had 5 HD- Tivo's once. I used DLB for sports, and that was pretty much it.
> I really missed it when I started getting the HR20, however, I never was one to actually complain about it. The workaround for me was sufficient. I have 2 HR20's connected to the main TV, so I actually have better than DLB anyway.
> Truth be known, I am a very happy user.
> I remember the old days of rabbit ears and missing shows simply since there were two on at the same time, and there was no such thing as a VCR back in those days, so, compared to that, I have it really, really good now


Ah, a breath of fresh air!

Rich


----------



## Wilmo54

Okay, I need some help here. I'm currently using the HR10-250 and love it. (mostly because it had DLB) But anyway, I'm looking to upgrade to get more HD channels. I've researched, and researched, and researched. D* offers this and this, but not this. E* offers this and this, but not this, Comcast offers this and not much else. And Uverse offers...Well nothing, it's not in my area yet.

I'm one of the 4% who voted in this poll that I would not upgrade until D* offered DLB in the HR2*. Now, much to my chagrin, (a bit harsh:grin: ) I'm considering staying with D*, keeping the HR10-250, and adding an HR2* so I can have both the DLB and more HD channels. Inevitably there will be a time when I'm watching the HR2* and want the options of the DLB. Like when I'm watching two HD events that aren't available on the HR10-250. (LiL's)

Where I need the help is understanding exactly how the HR2* and it's lack of DLB buffer actually works. With my HR10-250, I can pause, switch, pause, switch back and still have my ballgame/tv show in the same place. The "work around" seems to be recording both programs and...well you know how it works. Anyway, for me personally, I may have one event I'm really into (I would record this one) and I might want to surf with the other tuner (not record). From what I have read, it seems like this would be a possible scenario.

But for instance, on one tuner I'm recording and on the other turner I'm surfing and I find something I kinda want to see. If I pause the non-recording tuner, switch to the recording tuner, watch for a few, pause it, and come back to the non-recording, but paused tuner, would it still be paused and buffered, or would I go back to the tuner being on the same channel, not paused any longer, and with nothing buffered?

Sorry for the long, drawn out post, but I really need to make a decision ASAP and I know the users of the HR2* would be the ones to help.


----------



## Rich

Wilmo54 said:


> Okay, I need some help here. I'm currently using the HR10-250 and love it. (mostly because it had DLB) But anyway, I'm looking to upgrade to get more HD channels. I've researched, and researched, and researched. D* offers this and this, but not this. E* offers this and this, but not this, Comcast offers this and not much else. And Uverse offers...Well nothing, it's not in my area yet.


I've talked to Dish, Cablevision and FIOS and D* is the cheapest way to go for what I want. You can use the recording function to replicate the DLB function well enough for your needs. I loved my TiVos too and now have a room full of old TiVos that my wife wants me to get rid of.

Don't be put off by the negatives you see on this forum. The majority of the negative posts are by people frustrated and looking for help. I wouldn't go back to TiVos voluntarily and I never thought I would say that. I really, truly like the HR20/21s. Try it, you'll learn (and it is a STEEP learning curve) to like it. I've had more trouble and more 20s than most of the people on the forum, but I learned and now I'm quite content with my HR2Xs.

Rich


----------



## itzme

Wilmo54 said:


> Okay, I need some help here. I'm currently using the HR10-250 and love it. (mostly because it had DLB) But anyway, I'm looking to upgrade to get more HD channels. I've researched, and researched, and researched. D* offers this and this, but not this. E* offers this and this, but not this, Comcast offers this and not much else. And Uverse offers...Well nothing, it's not in my area yet.
> 
> I'm one of the 4% who voted in this poll that I would not upgrade until D* offered DLB in the HR2*. Now, much to my chagrin, (a bit harsh:grin: ) I'm considering staying with D*, keeping the HR10-250, and adding an HR2* so I can have both the DLB and more HD channels. Inevitably there will be a time when I'm watching the HR2* and want the options of the DLB. Like when I'm watching two HD events that aren't available on the HR10-250. (LiL's)
> 
> Where I need the help is understanding exactly how the HR2* and it's lack of DLB buffer actually works. With my HR10-250, I can pause, switch, pause, switch back and still have my ballgame/tv show in the same place. The "work around" seems to be recording both programs and...well you know how it works. Anyway, for me personally, I may have one event I'm really into (I would record this one) and I might want to surf with the other tuner (not record). From what I have read, it seems like this would be a possible scenario.
> 
> But for instance, on one tuner I'm recording and on the other turner I'm surfing and I find something I kinda want to see. If I pause the non-recording tuner, switch to the recording tuner, watch for a few, pause it, and come back to the non-recording, but paused tuner, would it still be paused and buffered, or would I go back to the tuner being on the same channel, not paused any longer, and with nothing buffered?
> 
> Sorry for the long, drawn out post, but I really need to make a decision ASAP and I know the users of the HR2* would be the ones to help.


Your last big paragraph perfectly described the way I like to watch TV. The decision to use DLB is NOT made in advance, which is why the new DLB workaround just isn't sufficient. We want to surf on one tuner and anchor the other. With the HR2Xs, we can only do that once we make the decision to do the workaround. So all in all, the workaround is pretty useless to me. Note, I kept my HR10, too. Im frustrated. Those who dont miss DLBs dont watch TV like you and I do.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Wilmo54 said:


> Okay, I need some help here. I'm currently using the HR10-250 and love it. (mostly because it had DLB) But anyway, I'm looking to upgrade to get more HD channels. I've researched, and researched, and researched. D* offers this and this, but not this. E* offers this and this, but not this, Comcast offers this and not much else. And Uverse offers...Well nothing, it's not in my area yet.
> 
> I'm one of the 4% who voted in this poll that I would not upgrade until D* offered DLB in the HR2*. Now, much to my chagrin, (a bit harsh:grin: ) I'm considering staying with D*, keeping the HR10-250, and adding an HR2* so I can have both the DLB and more HD channels. Inevitably there will be a time when I'm watching the HR2* and want the options of the DLB. Like when I'm watching two HD events that aren't available on the HR10-250. (LiL's)
> 
> Where I need the help is understanding exactly how the HR2* and it's lack of DLB buffer actually works. With my HR10-250, I can pause, switch, pause, switch back and still have my ballgame/tv show in the same place. The "work around" seems to be recording both programs and...well you know how it works. Anyway, for me personally, I may have one event I'm really into (I would record this one) and I might want to surf with the other tuner (not record). From what I have read, it seems like this would be a possible scenario.
> 
> But for instance, on one tuner I'm recording and on the other turner I'm surfing and I find something I kinda want to see. If I pause the non-recording tuner, switch to the recording tuner, watch for a few, pause it, and come back to the non-recording, but paused tuner, would it still be paused and buffered, or would I go back to the tuner being on the same channel, not paused any longer, and with nothing buffered?
> 
> Sorry for the long, drawn out post, but I really need to make a decision ASAP and I know the users of the HR2* would be the ones to help.


If I understant what you want, try reading the workaround in the first post in this thread. I pretty sure that's what your looking for.

Mike


----------



## Knon2000

The workaround accomplishes this, however with an extra keypush involved. I guess for some, that extra key is just too much  
The only real problem comes if you change the channel, you lose the buffer, but I am sure you are all too aware of this problem with the Tivo too. With the workaround, you don't lose the buffer, so in reality, it is better than the tivo, since I have lost my buffer on more than one occasion by hitting the wrong button on the remote


----------



## dennisj00

Unfortunately, if you change channels from the live channel, you lose the buffer. Unless it is to the channel that's being recorded. If you pause the live buffer and change to the recording channel, it should be at the pause point when you return.

But on the last couple of CE's - all bets are off. The workaround has not been reliable - maybe it will return.

The one thing I miss about no DLB is not being able to check another program on the second tuner without losing the live buffer.

It made switching between two channels much faster (instantaneous) rather than the 2 or more seconds to change plus losing the buffer.

I keep saying, just give us a way to see the second tuner - even NO buffer - without some hokey record sequence.


----------



## Knon2000

That was pretty much my point, with the DLB, you still lose the buffer too, if you make a mistake. With the workaround, you have a better chance of not making the mistake, since it is being recorded, as opposed to just being saved in the buffer. Basically, if anyone is like me, and has made an error with the HR10, you effectively lost your buffer. The HR20, by the nature of the workaround, has better odds of not losing the buffer.
Not saying that the workaround is better, but it is suffient to me. Best choice obviously would be to have it the same, but, hey, I am not complaining, since I have a method to employ that basically gets similar results.


----------



## dennisj00

Actually on the HR10 you could have recorded the same second buffer and avoided the problem. . . but you didn't have to! You had two buffers and yes, if you made the wrong keypress you lost one.

Now you have ONE buffer and if you make the wrong keypress you lose it! Even with the 'workaround'. Or worse - reboot!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Knon2000 said:


> Well, I am not rich, and I am not a "tweaky" gearhead. I had 5 HD- Tivo's once. I used DLB for sports, and that was pretty much it.
> I really missed it when I started getting the HR20, however, I never was one to actually complain about it. The workaround for me was sufficient. I have 2 HR20's connected to the main TV, so I actually have better than DLB anyway.
> Truth be known, I am a very happy user.
> I remember the old days of rabbit ears and missing shows simply since there were two on at the same time, and there was no such thing as a VCR back in those days, so, compared to that, I have it really, really good now





rich584 said:


> Ah, a breath of fresh air!
> 
> Rich


Hey I'm happy with everything too.


----------



## vicmeldrew

theratpatrol said:


> Hey I'm happy with everything too.


so ato by happy i need to get two dvrs: you are missing the point - one dvr should make me happy; and as i said previously - i am buying a flat screen later this month or next and dlb is a must.


----------



## Rich

theratpatrol said:


> Hey I'm happy with everything too.


Last year at this time. Remember? All kinds of issues and arguments. Now we're down to arguing, once again, about DLBs and NR issues. Nothing major. And nothing with a solution.

I have absolutely no interest in DLBs. The only reason I've been watching this thread is because I can't believe the tenacity of the people who want DLBs. And I have enjoyed BoltJames and his logical arguments. And of course the venomous replies. We've actually gotten to the point where the only interesting thread I can find is one that is beating and beating on an issue that was resolved last year.

We get it: A number of 20/21 users adamantly want DLBs. I'd like to be Derek Jeter. You don't always get what you want.

Last year, remember? The horror? 2007 will always be the "Year of the HR20" to me. A nightmare. And now, as you are, I'm happy with everything. They certainly are not perfect, but they are a whole lot better than VCRs. I wonder what's next?

Rich


----------



## Wilmo54

dennisj00 said:


> Unfortunately, if you change channels from the live channel, you lose the buffer. Unless it is to the channel that's being recorded. *If you pause the live buffer and change to the recording channel, it should be at the pause point when you return.*


This is what I'm looking for. If I record my primary program, pause it, switch to my non-recorded, but paused tuner, then switch back to the recording tuner. Will I maintain the same paused spot on my unrecorded, but paused 2nd tuner?

Sounds very confusing, but this how I watch *A LOT* of tv.


----------



## Rich

vicmeldrew said:


> so ato by happy i need to get two dvrs: you are missing the point - one dvr should make me happy; and as i said previously - i am buying a flat screen later this month or next and dlb is a must.


No, you are missing the point: 1 DVR should make you happy, two DVRs should make you really happy and number three should make you jump with joy. You can hook up at least four 20/21s to just about every new TV I've seen.

Try it. Get four 20/21s and hook them up to your brand new TV (I would recommend a Panasonic plasma) and you will be in pig heaven.

But seriously, you need more that one 20/21. You gotta back up to some extent.

Rich


----------



## cdc101

itzme said:


> *The decision to use DLB is NOT made in advance*, which is why the new DLB workaround just isn't sufficient.


Exactly!


----------



## btmoore

Knon2000 said:


> The workaround accomplishes this, however with an extra keypush involved. I guess for some, that extra key is just too much
> The only real problem comes if you change the channel, you lose the buffer, but I am sure you are all too aware of this problem with the Tivo too. With the workaround, you don't lose the buffer, so in reality, it is better than the tivo, since I have lost my buffer on more than one occasion by hitting the wrong button on the remote


If you think the issue with the workaround is just one extra keypush you just don't understand how people us DLB.


----------



## Wilmo54

MicroBeta said:


> If I understant what you want, try reading the workaround in the first post in this thread. I pretty sure that's what your looking for.
> 
> Mike


I think that's exactly what I'm looking for! Still not DLB *OBVIOUSLY*, but I think in combo with my HR10-250 I can make it work.

Thanks Mike and thanks everyone else for you help. :hurah:

Wilmo


----------



## puffnstuff

O.k. tried the workaround again . What if I don't want the recorded show to pause when I switch ? I want it to keep playing . I guess that was the reason the workaround didn't work for me before .


----------



## Knon2000

btmoore said:


> If you think the issue with the workaround is just one extra keypush you just don't understand how people us DLB.


Okay, I give, EXACTLY how many keypushes are needed to use DLB on the HR10?

Remember, you must included EVERY keypush.

Maybe you are forgetting the # of keypushes yourself ?


----------



## puffnstuff

Knon2000 said:


> Okay, I give, EXACTLY how many keypushes are needed to use DLB on the HR10?
> 
> Remember, you must included EVERY keypush.
> 
> Maybe you are forgetting the # of keypushes yourself ?


one , live tv .


----------



## Knon2000

Cool, only one question though, how did you get the second tuner on the channel you wanted to watch, in order to buffer, or for that matter, switch to it so you could watch it?


----------



## puffnstuff

Knon2000 said:


> Cool, only one question though, how did you get the second tuner on the channel you wanted to watch, in order to buffer, or for that matter, switch to it so you could watch it?


O.k. #1 live tv #2 whatever channel I want #3 live tv to switch . so at most four or five . Lets see with the workaround it is #1 record #2 list #3 play #4 whatever channel I want #5 previous ( which swtches to a PAUSED buffer ) so that is about 7 or 8 . So 7 is more than 4 . Edit : also I have to add to the workaround count because then I have to go in and delete them later putting the count up to at least 11 . Which is just insane .


----------



## dennisj00

Or if your recorded program is the second in a series, it's in a folder which means more digging to get to it -- and later to delete it.

Just give us an easy way to get to the second tuner! Buffer or no buffer.


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> And I have enjoyed BoltJames and his logical arguments.


BJ's posts have been far from logical. On the contrary, they have been nothing but rash generalizations, assumptions, and biased opinions.


----------



## puffnstuff

dennisj00 said:


> Or if your recorded program is the second in a series, it's in a folder which means more digging to get to it -- and later to delete it.
> 
> Just give us an easy way to get to the second tuner! Buffer or no buffer.


Which puts the count higher than I can count .


----------



## Knon2000

Well, for me, when I would use DLB, it was during football games, so I paused the buffers so I could catch up on the plays in the second game while in a commercial break. It never made sense to let it play while buffering, since that meant that I had to backtrack to where I was previously. I guess you are different if you don't pause the buffer on the second tuner with sports. Fact is, I like the longer buffer on the HR20, and wouldn't trade that for the 30minute buffer on the HR10. Does it mean that it is perfect, *HECK NO*. Is the HR20 workaround good enough for me, *HECK YES*.
I guess if you want to get to the nitty gritty, not including pauses and deleting, yep, you are right, it is more presses, but hey, that is not how I used it. BTW, I can't remember the last time I actually deleted a program from the DVR, I let them slip off, since I have mine configured to keep the newest programs first, so I don't bother with archiving.
I guess I should have known better than to jump into the middle of this, since the people that are still griping obviously are not going to have their minds changed. I wasn't happy with the solution, but I was open-minded enough to try it, and find that it was acceptable as a substitute for me. I was more than happy to trade the DLB for the media-share capablilties of these machines, especially when there was a working solution in place for DLB. As of now, I can honestly say that I am very happy with these recievers, especially when you throw in the HD content that they deliver in comparision to the older hardware.


----------



## puffnstuff

Knon2000 said:


> Well, for me, when I would use DLB, it was during football games, so I paused the buffers so I could catch up on the plays in the second game while in a commercial break. It never made sense to let it play while buffering, since that meant that I had to backtrack to where I was previously. I guess you are different if you don't pause the buffer on the second tuner with sports. Fact is, I like the longer buffer on the HR20, and wouldn't trade that for the 30minute buffer on the HR10. Does it mean that it is perfect, *HECK NO*. Is the HR20 workaround good enough for me, *HECK YES*.
> I guess if you want to get to the nitty gritty, not including pauses and deleting, yep, you are right, it is more presses, but hey, that is not how I used it. BTW, I can't remember the last time I actually deleted a program from the DVR, I let them slip off, since I have mine configured to keep the newest programs first, so I don't bother with archiving.
> I guess I should have known better than to jump into the middle of this, since the people that are still griping obviously are not going to have their minds changed. I wasn't happy with the solution, but I was open-minded enough to try it, and find that it was acceptable as a substitute for me. I was more than happy to trade the DLB for the media-share capablilties of these machines, especially when there was a working solution in place for DLB. As of now, I can honestly say that I am very happy with these recievers, especially when you throw in the HD content that they deliver in comparision to the older hardware.


The HD part yes . As for mediashare , it needs alot of work and plus my opinion is , if you have a network you probably have something that does a way better job . About using DLB for sports , I used it every day during every program . I know it is a DVR but with DLB I could watch 2 sitcoms live , without recording or pausing and not see any commercials . When I did use it for sports I surf on 1 tuner and remember to turn back to the other . Also I can't just let things sit on my DVR's it gets to confusing for me since I already have to have 2 HR's and whatever this comcast HD box is , on one tv since I record so much now that I don't have DLB .


----------



## Tom Robertson

rich584 said:


> Those people aren't engineers and aren't programmers. You're lucky if you get to talk to someone who even owns a DVR. I have spent too many hours talking to many people at all levels of the food chain at D* and I have yet to talk to someone who owns a DVR much less a "power user". I would consider myself a power user.


You and I have spoken on very different food chains at DIRECTV then.  I've talked to some of the key people in development whilst at CES; they all use their DVRs all the time. I've also talked to various CSRs who all have and use DVRs.

Now, I've not talked about DVRs to some of the non-engineering DIRECTV people, mostly about their areas of serving at DIRECTV. So I could easily have missed the food chains you've worked with.


rich584 said:


> I still don't see why people use DVRs as receivers rather than take advantage of the recording functions. And those recording functions can replicate DLBs to a degree that is close enough to warrant not having DLBs.


My VCRs to a limited extent enhanced my live viewing experience; they were cable tuners for my TVs that didn't have cable capabilities.

Just so, my DVRs provide tuners for my TVs that for some crazy reason don't have DIRECTV tuners.  And DVRs, built around the concept of buffering for those times you need to answer the phone or grab a snack, really are meant to enhance live TV. I always think of them as Digital Video Receivers not simply as recorders. 


rich584 said:


> I've never considered myself rich. Don't have any money problems and buy a lot of "toys", but "rich"? No.


 My "riches" are pictured in my avatar photo. I truly am very well blessed.

Happy Easter,
Tom


----------



## btmoore

Knon2000 said:


> Okay, I give, EXACTLY how many keypushes are needed to use DLB on the HR10?
> 
> Remember, you must included EVERY keypush.
> 
> Maybe you are forgetting the # of keypushes yourself ?


It has nothing to do with keypushes.

IMO the major problem with the work around is centered around recording a program which has a fixed end, to anchor that tuner. Once that program is over that anchor is lost, so if you are anchoring on a news station or any station where the programming changes every half hour or less you have to keep reanchoing, basically it does not keep a live sliding window buffer of what is on that station and and it creates a big mess of recordings to clean up. Maybe this works ok if you are toggling between 2 long running sporting events but it does not work well for other uses.


----------



## mgcsooner

I voted the closest I could---I want DLB as implemented on HR10. Actually I have no idea how it works on HR10. I had it on my Dish equipment before I switched 18 months ago and loved it. I or my wife both inadvertantly hit the channel up/down in error as it is flipped with my TV and AV controls. There is no getting it back when you do that. The work around is silly except for perhaps watching sports shows, but is inpractical when you simply want to spontaneously check another channel or as I said above, accidently change the channel.


----------



## boltjames

Knon2000 said:


> I guess I should have known better than to jump into the middle of this, since the people that are still griping obviously are not going to have their minds changed. I wasn't happy with the solution, but I was open-minded enough to try it, and find that it was acceptable as a substitute for me. I was more than happy to trade the DLB for the media-share capablilties of these machines, especially when there was a working solution in place for DLB. As of now, I can honestly say that I am very happy with these recievers, especially when you throw in the HD content that they deliver in comparision to the older hardware.


You are a good man and your honesty is [my opinion] appreciated.

BJ


----------



## raott

Knon2000 said:


> The workaround accomplishes this, however with an extra keypush involved. I guess for some, that extra key is just too much
> The only real problem comes if you change the channel, you lose the buffer, but I am sure you are all too aware of this problem with the Tivo too. With the workaround, you don't lose the buffer, so in reality, it is better than the tivo, since I have lost my buffer on more than one occasion by hitting the wrong button on the remote


If you didn't want to risk losing the buffer on the TIVO (or motorola, or dish, or fios etc, etc etc) you can simply choose to record - just like the "workaround" with the HR20 - so using that as some kind of argument that the workaround is "better" is really silly.

And as others pointed out, it isn't one extra keypush - it is a huge PITA when the show you are trying to anchor is ESPNNEWS to get scores, or local news or any other 30 minute program.


----------



## raott

Knon2000 said:


> Fact is, I like the longer buffer on the HR20, and wouldn't trade that for the 30minute buffer on the HR10. Does it mean that it is perfect, *HECK NO*. Is the HR20 workaround good enough for me, *HECK YES*.


No one said you had to trade the longer buffer for DLBs, you can easily have both. The moto boxes have two 45 minute buffers (with a much smaller hard drive).

We all know there is a workaround and that the workaround is ok for some people but its not for many of us - I'm not sure why that is lost on some people.


----------



## raott

Knon2000 said:


> I guess I should have known better than to jump into the middle of this, since the people that are still griping obviously are not going to have their minds changed. I wasn't happy with the solution, but I was open-minded enough to try it, and find that it was acceptable as a substitute for me.


I have tried the workaround, I do not find it acceptable and your post is extremely condescending.


----------



## Drew2k

I have five DVRs connected to one TV, and only one is a TiVo HR10-250 with true DLB, so using my "workarounds" from a universal remote, I have QLB - Quintuple Live Buffer... and I am very happy with my HR20-100, HR20-700, HR20-700, and HR10-250 and barely suffering my Cablevision SA-8300HD DVR. 

So I am overall very happy. However, having true DLB on the HR20-100 and two HR20-700 DVRs would make me even happier.


----------



## boltjames

rich584 said:


> I have absolutely no interest in DLBs. The only reason I've been watching this thread is because I can't believe the tenacity of the people who want DLBs. And I have enjoyed BoltJames and his logical arguments. And of course the venomous replies. We've actually gotten to the point where the only interesting thread I can find is one that is beating and beating on an issue that was resolved last year.
> 
> We get it: A number of 20/21 users adamantly want DLBs. I'd like to be Derek Jeter. You don't always get what you want.
> 
> Last year, remember? The horror? 2007 will always be the "Year of the HR20" to me. A nightmare. And now, as you are, I'm happy with everything. They certainly are not perfect, but they are a whole lot better than VCRs. I wonder what's next?
> 
> Rich


Is "The Ten Commandments" on tonight? It would be cool to watch God's movie on God's device.

BJ


----------



## Knon2000

puffnstuff said:


> . About using DLB for sports , I used it every day during every program . I know it is a DVR but with DLB I could watch 2 sitcoms live , without recording or pausing and not see any commercials . QUOTE]
> 
> Okay, now you've got me confused. You are able to watch 2 sitcoms live, without recording, pausing *AND *not see any commercials? How exactly can you accomplish that? Surely you must be missing content since most major networks have their commercials synced pretty close to each other.
> It is also amazing how many times I switch from one game to a second, then a third, and they are all in commercial breaks too
> 
> BTW, I have 2 HR20's connected to my main tv simply since there are times that I need 3 active tuners, not because I am unhappy with the DLB workaround, although, I must admit, it makes for wonderful football watching with the side by side picture-in-picture that my TV has as an option
> I watch most primetime programming via timeshift, so it really seems necessary to have 3 tuners on occassion. Sometimes, I even have 4 tuners recording on that TV. With all the content on Direct TV, I have found myself to be a couch potato in the worst way
> Now, as far as having a problem knowing what you have recorded, and where, at least for me, I guess that simply isn't a problem


----------



## boltjames

Wilmo54 said:


> Okay, I need some help here. I'm currently using the HR10-250 and love it. (mostly because it had DLB) But anyway, I'm looking to upgrade to get more HD channels. I've researched, and researched, and researched. D* offers this and this, but not this. E* offers this and this, but not this, Comcast offers this and not much else. And Uverse offers...Well nothing, it's not in my area yet.
> 
> I'm one of the 4% who voted in this poll that I would not upgrade until D* offered DLB in the HR2*. Now, much to my chagrin, (a bit harsh:grin: ) I'm considering staying with D*, keeping the HR10-250, and adding an HR2* so I can have both the DLB and more HD channels. Inevitably there will be a time when I'm watching the HR2* and want the options of the DLB. Like when I'm watching two HD events that aren't available on the HR10-250. (LiL's)
> 
> Where I need the help is understanding exactly how the HR2* and it's lack of DLB buffer actually works. With my HR10-250, I can pause, switch, pause, switch back and still have my ballgame/tv show in the same place. The "work around" seems to be recording both programs and...well you know how it works. Anyway, for me personally, I may have one event I'm really into (I would record this one) and I might want to surf with the other tuner (not record). From what I have read, it seems like this would be a possible scenario.
> 
> But for instance, on one tuner I'm recording and on the other turner I'm surfing and I find something I kinda want to see. If I pause the non-recording tuner, switch to the recording tuner, watch for a few, pause it, and come back to the non-recording, but paused tuner, would it still be paused and buffered, or would I go back to the tuner being on the same channel, not paused any longer, and with nothing buffered?
> 
> Sorry for the long, drawn out post, but I really need to make a decision ASAP and I know the users of the HR2* would be the ones to help.


Whether with DLB or without, the HR20 is a fantastic machine. Like you, I held onto my HR10 and my love for Tivo for way, way too long and in retrospect it was all for nothing. Was a proud member of the Tivo Forums anti-D* brigade, even was quoted extensively in a Wall Street Journal article on Tivo's virtues. Then decided that I wanted all the new HD content and the NFL Sunday Ticket package, came to DBS, and took the plunge. It's been amongst the happiest days of my life since.

Yes, it takes about two days to get acclimated to the new functions, the new UI, and the remote. But once you get to day three, it's all good. In the end, it's like getting a new car from a different brand. The window controls and door locks are in a strange location, the shifter is a little more stiff, the wipers are on the wrong stalk on the steering column, but in the end it's still a car. Just takes a few days to get used to the new layout before it's second nature and you don't think about it again.

Stick with D* and get an HR20/1. You'll be very happy you did.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I have five DVRs connected to one TV, and only one is a TiVo HR10-250 with true DLB, so using my "workarounds" from a universal remote, I have QLB - Quintuple Live Buffer... and I am very happy with my HR20-100, HR20-700, HR20-700, and HR10-250 and barely suffering my Cablevision SA-8300HD DVR.
> 
> So I am overall very happy. However, having true DLB on the HR20-100 and two HR20-700 DVRs would make me even happier.


You shouldn't admit to such things in this thread. If any D* employees even bother to click on it these days, they'll see that you're not the target audience.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> BJ's posts have been far from logical. On the contrary, they have been nothing but rash generalizations, assumptions, and biased opinions.


Wow, you just typed the pro-DLB manifesto. Generalize on the amount of people who care about DLB, assume that everyone is like yourself and those that tic a box in a poll, and offer opinions that only focus on the lack of DLB as a mistake without recognizing the merits of all the new functionality we've been given.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Wow, you just typed the pro-DLB manifesto. Generalize on the amount of people who care about DLB, assume that everyone is like yourself and those that tic a box in a poll, and offer opinions that only focus on the lack of DLB as a mistake without recognizing the merits of all the new functionality we've been given.
> 
> BJ


It's fine to not want DLB, but I don't understand the crusade to prevent others from wanting it. Why not let people cast their votes, express their opinions, and not badger them with taunts of "You'll never see DLB?"

Instead, your posts just keep drawing attention to the very thread you believe harms the DVR you claim to love so much. It's a strange world when someone can post anti-DLB rhetoric in a pro-DLB thread and not recognize how much those posts are harming the beloved DVR by inviting rejoinders from the pro-DLB zealots who are despised and/or pitied by the anti-DLB crusader ... it's vicious circle that will never end.


----------



## skimmilk

Today's basketball action was a perfect example why the DLB "workaround" just is not a workaround. All the games ran long or into OT but only by a minute or two. Choosing one to "anchor" DLB was pointless cause you would have missed the critical part of the game as the recording would stop on the hour. Somehow toggling into the menu to extend recordings is a no-can-do, when you're caught up in the moment with all the action happening unpredictably, not to mention the fact that there are 3 games all zooming to the finish line.

BJ, just because someone finds the new features on the HR-2X the greatest things since sliced bread, doesn't mean that the HR-2X isn't missing a feature or two. Honestly, I would never return to this site as a happy enough customer if they fix the major bugs (30 skip silence, the interactive menu blocking my NCAA scores) and added DLB. I never was this active on the TiVO community boards because it did what I wanted it to do.


----------



## Drewg5

What there is still no dlb :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Que

Knon2000 said:


> Okay, now you've got me confused. You are able to watch 2 sitcoms live, without recording, pausing *AND *not see any commercials? How exactly can you accomplish that? Surely you must be missing content since most major networks have their commercials synced pretty close to each other.
> It is also amazing how many times I switch from one game to a second, then a third, and they are all in commercial breaks too


This is how it works on every other DVR out there, - (DirecTV)DVR plus line.



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> IMHO, it's because implementation of *DLB* interfered with (or at least dovetails into) other features.
> 
> It was put off until it became very difficult to just code it in.
> 
> I believe it's apparent in the fact that in the beginning Directv said they were looking into how to implement *DLB*.
> 
> I think that saying it's not there because nobody wants it is overly simplistic and ignores certain facts that have been presented in both threads.
> 
> Mike


[my opinion]
I think the reason it's not there is because they don't want to break anything (more)on there DVR plus line. This DVR has all been trial and error. Two years later and it's getting better.

DirecTV wanted to make there own line of DVRs and not pay the $1 per user for the TiVo line. Engineers/programmers said that they could do it. Not really knowing what they are getting into. Tons of bugs at release but, DirecTV still wanted to release this DVR knowing they could just update it later. Not really caring about the user (they are locked in for 2 years)

It's [my opinion] that James is really right. "DirecTV really messed up and instead of admitting it and adding DLB they are passing it off as unimportant" although just a joke reply. They didn't do enough marketing/product research. The line was rush out the door. Every other DVR out there, has this option. EVERYONE. So with time and a little luck in programming we will have DLB. /[my opinion]


----------



## ATARI

crashHD said:


> DLB's and MRV are core components of my television viewing experience. In fact, if I were to make a list of the things I want for a satisfactory TV experience, it would be as follows:
> 
> 1 Electricity
> 2 DVR
> 3 MRV
> 4 DLB
> 5 HD
> 
> I'd like to get HD, but I can't, without giving up things that are a higher priority to me.
> 
> Just my $.04 ($.02 doesn't cut it anymore).


Shouldn't #2 be a TV?


----------



## Dr. Booda

Que said:


> [my opinion]
> I think the reason it's not there is because they don't want to break anything (more)on there DVR plus line. This DVR has all been trial and error. Two years later and it's getting better.
> 
> DirecTV wanted to make there own line of DVRs and not pay the $1 per user for the TiVo line. Engineers/programmers said that they could do it. Not really knowing what they are getting into. Tons of bugs at release but, DirecTV still wanted to release this DVR knowing they could just update it later. Not really caring about the user (they are locked in for 2 years)
> 
> It's [my opinion] that James is really right. "DirecTV really messed up and instead of admitting it and adding DLB they are passing it off as unimportant" although just a joke reply. They didn't do enough marketing/product research. The line was rush out the door. Every other DVR out there, has this option. EVERYONE. So with time and a little luck in programming we will have DLB. /[my opinion]


I agree. When your latest NR software causes audio glitches galore, why risk adding DLB to further muddy the waters?


----------



## Doug Brott

btmoore said:


> It has nothing to do with keypushes.
> 
> IMO the major problem with the work around is centered around recording a program which has a fixed end, to anchor that tuner. Once that program is over that anchor is lost, so if you are anchoring on a news station or any station where the programming changes every half hour or less you have to keep reanchoing, basically it does not keep a live sliding window buffer of what is on that station and and it creates a big mess of recordings to clean up. Maybe this works ok if you are toggling between 2 long running sporting events but it does not work well for other uses.


Yes, this is a limitation of the workaround and really the reason that it's a workaround vs. a solution.


----------



## jahgreen

Drew2k said:


> It's a strange world when someone can post anti-DLB rhetoric in a pro-DLB thread


When did the thread become "pro-DLB"? I thought it was "what are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers," not "What are the reasons the lack of DLB is the biggest mistake DirecTV ever made?"

In other words, rhetoric on both sides seems to me to be on-topic. As long as it's rhetoric about DLB and not a personal attack.


----------



## Drew2k

jahgreen said:


> When did the thread become "pro-DLB"? I thought it was "what are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers," not "What are the reasons the lack of DLB is the biggest mistake DirecTV ever made?"


Ostensibly, it's a neutral poll and thread, but take a look at the poll-results and responses, and you tell me this isn't a "pro-DLB" thread. By the very nature of the responses, this is a pro-DLB thread.


----------



## Lord Vader

skimmilk said:


> Today's basketball action was a perfect example why the DLB "workaround" just is not a workaround. All the games ran long or into OT but only by a minute or two. Choosing one to "anchor" DLB was pointless cause you would have missed the critical part of the game as the recording would stop on the hour. Somehow toggling into the menu to extend recordings is a no-can-do, when you're caught up in the moment with all the action happening unpredictably, not to mention the fact that there are 3 games all zooming to the finish line.


I agree. I got so frickin' ticked off at the lack of DLB that I basically said, "Forget it!" and turned off basketball altogether. The lack of DLB, BTW, has caused me to cancel my NASCAR Hot Pass, ESPN Full Court (college basketball) package and will result in my not renewing the NCAA Mega March Madness package next season. I'm not going to cancel DirecTV as a customer per se, but their lack of DLB has already resulted in their annual loss of some $300 in my sports subscription packages. I'm sure in the scheme of things they don't care one bit about me canceling this because it's a drop in the bucket, if that. Too bad, too, because when it comes to DLB, it's critical for sports events far more than any other type of broadcast, for obvious reasons.

I wonder what a poll here would show in terms of the number of similar customers who haven't left DirecTV but canceled specific sports packages instead. I really wish someone from DirecTV was reading this and took it to heart. I'm not abusing them over this; rather, I'm pointing out what it has cost them directly.


----------



## ATARI

I cancelled my NFL Sunday Ticket because of no DLB.


----------



## Lord Vader

And that's their most expensive sports package--$249 or so, without the Super Fan, isn't it?


----------



## James Long

_"In an effort to save their customers money, DirecTV has decided not to offer DLB on their popular HR-20 HD DVR."_

:lol:


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> BJ's posts have been far from logical. On the contrary, they have been nothing but rash generalizations, assumptions, and biased opinions.


Your Lordship, I have usually enjoyed your posts too. Especially the ones with the sound links. And I am not going to argue with you about what I enjoy. But, you do understand the difference between rhetoric and logic? I know you do and all BJ is doing is defending himself logically. And doing it in a manner that is both clear and logical.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Knon2000 said:


> I guess I should have known better than to jump into the middle of this, since the people that are still griping obviously are not going to have their minds changed.


Arguing about DLBs is probably a fruitless endeavor, but that's no reason to bail out. This an interesting thread and I have absolutely no use for DLBs, but if people feel that strongly...

What scares me is this: Suppose D* relents and activates DLBs. Can anyone guarantee that they will not screw up the 20/21s?

Rich


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> Your Lordship, I have usually enjoyed your posts too. Especially the ones with the sound links. And I am not going to argue with you about what I enjoy. But, you do understand the difference between rhetoric and logic? I know you do and all BJ is doing is defending himself logically. And doing it in a manner that is both clear and logical.
> 
> Rich


Wow! I think you are clearly in the minority here, perhaps a poll, on if BJ is logical or not. 

BJ is a troll and a joke, look as his avitar, it is a rusty bolt, and like a stubborn rusty bolt, he is just trying to be obstinate frustrate those trying to remove it. I got the joke a long time ago, he is not worth engaging.


----------



## Villanman

Wow... I miss the DLB, but there was a time when there wasn't even a DVR for my Sunday Ticket, much less DLB.


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> Can anyone guarantee that they will not screw up the 20/21s?
> 
> Rich


It is already screwed up, maybe it will unscrew it.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Ostensibly, it's a neutral poll and thread, but take a look at the poll-results and responses, and you tell me this isn't a "pro-DLB" thread. By the very nature of the responses, this is a pro-DLB thread.


....and there's another [my opinion] elitist DLB person thinking they're owed something more than everyone else.

_"What are your thoughts on Dual Line Buffers?"_

Thoughts are agnostic. This thread belongs to the people.

BJ


----------



## James Long

(l) All posts made on DBSTalk.Com become property of DBSTalk.Com. All users, registered or not, reading and/or posting on these forums waive the right for legal action against the DBSTalk.Com Administrators or Moderators for any reason.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> I really wish someone from DirecTV was reading this and took it to heart. I'm not abusing them over this; rather, I'm pointing out what it has cost them directly.


I'm sure they read this and laugh their heads off [my opinion] each and every day at the water cooler.

I'm sure the McDonald's board sweated it out in 1983 when they decided to drop the "popular" McRib sandwich. They've really suffered since.










BJ


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> You and I have spoken on very different food chains at DIRECTV then.  I've talked to some of the key people in development whilst at CES; they all use their DVRs all the time. I've also talked to various CSRs who all have and use DVRs.


The CES is something altogether different. As I've said before, I'm willing to let other people participate because of the Mac Beta testing I was privy to. Lots of dead Macs in that program. I was totally truthful when I stated that I have NEVER spoken to anyone at D* that had a DVR. I never said none of them do. As a matter of fact, I have been appalled at the thought of D* not giving DVRs to CSRs so they could more easily understand what I was talking about. And I usually deal with the PP CSRs. Who I think are far more knowledgeable than the average CSR. My very favorite CSRs are the ones who ask, "Whats an eSATA?"



> Now, I've not talked about DVRs to some of the non-engineering DIRECTV people, mostly about their areas of serving at DIRECTV. So I could easily have missed the food chains you've worked with.


Understandable.



> My VCRs to a limited extent enhanced my live viewing experience; they were cable tuners for my TVs that didn't have cable capabilities.


As I've said before, I have been time shifting for over 20 years and rarely, if ever watch live TV, so my experience with VCRs is obviously different than yours.



> Just so, my DVRs provide tuners for my TVs that for some crazy reason don't have DIRECTV tuners.  And DVRs, built around the concept of buffering for those times you need to answer the phone or grab a snack, really are meant to enhance live TV.


Again, we have different viewing habits.



> I always think of them as Digital Video Receivers not simply as recorders.  My "riches" are pictured in my avatar photo. I truly am very well blessed.


And I am very glad that you are.

Interesting thread, tho. Even tho we're beating that dead horse all over again. And, next year, we'll probably do the same thing.

Rich


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> I'm sure the McDonald's board sweated it out in 1983 when they decided to drop the "popular" McRib sandwich. They've really suffered since.


The McRib is back! (Occasionally.)

It is one of McD's rotating menu items.


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> I cancelled my NFL Sunday Ticket because of no DLB.


Then it really mustn't have been that important [my opinion] to you to begin with.

I'd give up the Hot Apple Pie if they took McNuggets off the menu, but I'd never give up the Big Mac.










BJ


----------



## Stuart Sweet

boltjames said:


> ....and there's another [my opinion] elitist DLB person thinking they're owed something more than everyone else.
> 
> _"What are your thoughts on Dual Line Buffers?"_
> 
> Thoughts are agnostic. This thread belongs to the people.
> 
> BJ


As the original poster, I made every effort to be as neutral as possible. If you think I failed at that, PM me and I'll consider changes to the wording.


----------



## boltjames

btmoore said:


> BJ is a troll and a joke, look as his avitar, it is a rusty bolt, and like a stubborn rusty bolt, he is just trying to be obstinate frustrate those trying to remove it. I got the joke a long time ago, he is not worth engaging.


I am not a troll [my opinion] nor am I anti-DLB. I am pro-HR20. Big difference.

My thoughts on DLB are simple- it's a nice-to-have, it's not used widely by the D* population, and there are so many other good innovations in the HR20 that they cancel out the "loss" of DLB.

That's not "trolling" DLB. That's extolling HR20. My purpose is noble. Not sure what yours is.

BJ


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> I have tried the workaround, I do not find it acceptable and your post is extremely condescending.


The definition of condescending is: "Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude." At least you spelled it correctly.

Rich


----------



## boltjames

Stuart Sweet said:


> As the original poster, I made every effort to be as neutral as possible. If you think I failed at that, PM me and I'll consider changes to the wording.


No issue with you at all sir. You and the other mods [my opinion] have been 100% neutral and fair to both points of view.

I was merely pointing out the neutrality of the thread to one of the posters who felt it was meant to be "pro-DLB".

BJ


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> I have five DVRs connected to one TV, and only one is a TiVo HR10-250 with true DLB, so using my "workarounds" from a universal remote, I have QLB - Quintuple Live Buffer... and I am very happy with my HR20-100, HR20-700, HR20-700, and HR10-250 and barely suffering my Cablevision SA-8300HD DVR.
> 
> So I am overall very happy. However, having true DLB on the HR20-100 and two HR20-700 DVRs would make me even happier.


Glad to see you calmed down, Drew. Why do you still have Cablevision? Triple Play?

Rich


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> No issue with you at all sir. You and the other mods [my opinion] have been 100% neutral and fair to both points of view.


That's a first! :lol:


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Is "The Ten Commandments" on tonight? It would be cool to watch God's movie on God's device.
> 
> BJ


That was beautiful. Made me chuckle and I do enjoy a good chuckle.

Rich


----------



## Rich

puffnstuff said:


> . About using DLB for sports , I used it every day during every program . I know it is a DVR but with DLB I could watch 2 sitcoms live , without recording or pausing and not see any commercials .


I don't get that at all. But then, different people have different ways of viewing.



> Now, as far as having a problem knowing what you have recorded, and where, at least for me, I guess that simply isn't a problem


I rather like the "playlist". I don't see how anyone could get confused about what is where. When I was using VCRs to time shift I kept a written log of what was where and the DVRs solved that problem for me.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Drewg5 said:


> What there is still no dlb :beatdeadhorse:


Wow! Took a long time for that to happen!

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree. When your latest NR software causes audio glitches galore, why risk adding DLB to further muddy the waters?


That is the one point I have been trying to make. I don't want them to hurt my Preciousssss (tribute to Harsh).

Rich


----------



## ToddinVA

James Long said:


> The McRib is back! (Occasionally.)
> 
> It is one of McD's rotating menu items.


Rotating DLB would still be better than no DLB! :lol:


----------



## Rich

jahgreen said:


> When did the thread become "pro-DLB"? I thought it was "what are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers," not "What are the reasons the lack of DLB is the biggest mistake DirecTV ever made?"
> 
> In other words, rhetoric on both sides seems to me to be on-topic. As long as it's rhetoric about DLB and not a personal attack.


One of the definitions of rhetoric is: "Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric."

I've seen a lot of that on this thread.

Rich


----------



## James Long

ToddinVA said:


> Rotating DLB would still be better than no DLB! :lol:


OK ... you can have DLB on Tuesday night but not Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> OK ... you can have DLB on Tuesday night but not Saturday or Sunday.


Do you want fries with that?


----------



## Rich

btmoore said:


> Wow! I think you are clearly in the minority here, perhaps a poll, on if BJ is logical or not.


I've been in the intellectual minority all my life. And I've faced discrimination because of it. Perhaps a poll limited to those who understand what a logical argument is would show different results than the broad based poll you are suggesting.



> BJ is a troll and a joke, look as his avitar, it is a rusty bolt, and like a stubborn rusty bolt, he is just trying to be obstinate frustrate those trying to remove it. I got the joke a long time ago, he is not worth engaging.


I was wondering what his avAtar meant. I bet you figured out that I'm a Yankees fan from my avatar. Golly.

Rich


----------



## Rich

James Long said:


> OK ... you can have DLB on Tuesday night but not Saturday or Sunday.


I wonder how many people will take your post as a statement of fact?

Rich


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> The McRib is back! (Occasionally.)
> 
> It is one of McD's rotating menu items.


Yes, they feature it at least twice a year.

Now I wish they would bring back the McMelt (or whatever it was called) -- larger patty on a rye bun with melty cheese and grilled onions -- YUM!


----------



## ATARI

btmoore said:


> Wow! I think you are clearly in the minority here, perhaps a poll, on if BJ is logical or not.
> 
> BJ is a troll and a joke, look as his avitar, it is a rusty bolt, and like a stubborn rusty bolt, he is just trying to be obstinate frustrate those trying to remove it. I got the joke a long time ago, he is not worth engaging.


He just needs a little WD-40


----------



## Que

mgcsooner said:


> I voted the closest I could---I want DLB as implemented on HR10. Actually I have no idea how it works on HR10. I had it on my Dish equipment before I switched 18 months ago and loved it. I or my wife both inadvertantly hit the channel up/down in error as it is flipped with my TV and AV controls. There is no getting it back when you do that. The work around is silly except for perhaps watching sports shows, but is inpractical when you simply want to spontaneously check another channel or as I said above, accidently change the channel.


DLB works about the same on all other DVRs.

TivO line
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

I guess they listed the HR10 is because DirecTV are they ones that offer TiVo to is user (also offer SD TiVo DVR). Now they want there own DVR line. They could of change the wording a bit. Not everyone is upgrading, could be coming from another company.


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> OK ... you can have DLB on Tuesday night but not Saturday or Sunday.


I would be satisfied just having it on Sundays from September to January.

(I'm talking about DLB, of course  )


----------



## puffnstuff

boltjames said:


> I'm sure they read this and laugh their heads off [my opinion] each and every day at the water cooler.
> 
> I'm sure the McDonald's board sweated it out in 1983 when they decided to drop the "popular" McRib sandwich. They've really suffered since.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJ


When did they drop the Mc Rib ? It's not gone it's just regional now .


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> The McRib is back! (Occasionally.)
> 
> It is one of McD's rotating menu items.


Hey, congrats on the 1000th post to this forum.

My money was on BJ getting it, but you beat him.

:goodjob:


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> What scares me is this: Suppose D* relents and activates DLBs. Can anyone guarantee that they will not screw up the 20/21s?
> 
> Rich


Screw it up? Compared to what? Like you Rich, I've had these things for a long time now, and there's no end to the screw-ups.

My hope is that DirecTV brings on some of the Replay TV guys to completely rewrite the code base from scratch and fix it once and for all while adding DLB in the process. I realize that this may take until 2009 as gleamed from DirecTV's Investor Day Presentation, but I can wait. At least this thread will be around until then to keep the rants going and all of us amused thanks to the devoted few on both sides.


----------



## Que

ATARI said:


> Hey, congrats on the 1000th post to this forum.
> 
> My money was on BJ getting it, but you beat him.
> 
> :goodjob:


Also added votes! I posted stats on the 19th in those five days 73 votes!


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> The definition of condescending is: "Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude." At least you spelled it correctly.
> 
> Rich


Thank you for the definition professor - I guess I got it right then.


----------



## dennisj00

I'll have to admit I don't follow the McDonald's line of crap that BJ is spouting now. McD's offers an overwhelming menu of items and rotates or tries new things periodically.

Directv offers ONE (1) -- take it or leave it -- method to record HD programming. And a somewhat questionable method at times.

And by the way, I'm SURE that every CSR for Dell and HP -- especially the ones in India -- have a brand spanking new Desktop or Laptop of their choice to help them brush up on their scripts! Someone doesn't understand CS!


----------



## Drew2k

Drew2k said:


> Ostensibly, it's a neutral poll and thread, but take a look at the poll-results and responses, and you tell me this isn't a "pro-DLB" thread. By the very nature of the responses, this is a pro-DLB thread.





boltjames said:


> ....and there's another [my opinion] elitist DLB person thinking they're owed something more than everyone else.
> 
> _"What are your thoughts on Dual Line Buffers?"_
> 
> Thoughts are agnostic. This thread belongs to the people.
> 
> BJ


I don't get how you take from my response that I believe or think I am "owed" something.



boltjames said:


> No issue with you at all sir. You and the other mods [my opinion] have been 100% neutral and fair to both points of view.
> 
> I was merely pointing out the neutrality of the thread to one of the posters who felt it was meant to be "pro-DLB".
> 
> BJ


You've misunderstood my post completely. First, I never said I felt the intention of this thread was meant to be pro-DLB. I think my statement is rather simple. Starting out as a poll and discussion on DLB, with the majority of all voters wanting DLB and most of the posts asking for DLB, this thread has become pro-DLB. It's not complicated - this is a pro-DLB crowd and since the pro-DLB crowd outnumbers the anti-DLB crowd, this becomes a pro-DLB thread simply by the fact that this is the way the posts stack up.


----------



## Drew2k

rich584 said:


> Glad to see you calmed down, Drew. Why do you still have Cablevision? Triple Play?
> 
> Rich


You thought I wasn't calm? 

Anyway, I still have Cablevision because it's part of my associate fees and I can't shut it off, so I got their DVR to watch CW, My9, and PBS in HD. Now that DIRECTV has two of those three in HD, all I have to do is finish watching some shows I'm backlogged on (Supernatural) and the box goes back ... but I'll still have cable service.


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> I'll have to admit I don't follow the McDonald's line of crap that BJ is spouting now. McD's offers an overwhelming menu of items and rotates or tries new things periodically.
> 
> Directv offers ONE (1) -- take it or leave it -- method to record HD programming. And a somewhat questionable method at times.


The McDonald's analogy was designed to illustrate how the elimination of it's tweakiest sandwich in 1983, beloved but only by a fraction of the dining public, did nothing to slow the corporations rapid growth and cost it not a single disatisfied customer.

I didn't know that McD's had a backdoor hack that let certain customers get the McRib in 2008.

DLB is not a "method to record HD programming". DLB is a "method to watch two live television broadcasts simultaneously". It's not a core function of a DVR. It's a jump button on steriods. It's not germaine to a DVR. It's a happy accident. Well, it _was _a happy accident. Now it's just a memory.

BJ


----------



## Richierich

boltjames said:


> DLB is not a "method to record HD programming". DLB is a "method to watch two live television broadcasts simultaneously". It's not a core function of a DVR. It's a jump button on steriods. It's not germaine to a DVR. It's a happy accident. Well, it _was _a happy accident. Now it's just a memory.
> BJ


WELL SAID!!! Never really thought about it like that!!! VERY TRUE STATEMENTS!!!


----------



## boltjames

*Drew2k I don't get how you take from my response that I believe or think I am "owed" something.*

Fundamentally, all pro-DLB'ers are [my opinion] selfish and unappreciative. As little as a year ago, they have clunky HR10's, no MPEG4, and 10 HD channels of any merit. Flash forward and they have sleek HR20's, crystal-clear MPEG4, and almost 80 channels of worthwhile HD and they're self-aborbed in their DLB pity, refusing to see how fortunate they really are and how much D* cares about their happiness.

*You've misunderstood my post completely. First, I never said I felt the intention of this thread was meant to be pro-DLB. I think my statement is rather simple. Starting out as a poll and discussion on DLB, with the majority of all voters wanting DLB and most of the posts asking for DLB, this thread has become pro-DLB. It's not complicated - this is a pro-DLB crowd and since the pro-DLB crowd outnumbers the anti-DLB crowd, this becomes a pro-DLB thread simply by the fact that this is the way the posts stack up.*

One can understand how you come to that conclusion, but the title of this thread asks everyone in the DBS community to offer their "thoughts on DLB". It doesn't say "if you want DLB, post here" or "if you have an opinion that is against the grain, please go away". The original thread was a pro-DLB pity-party and was put to sleep. This thread is a neutral safe-haven to discuss the importance of DLB. That's a pretty clearly articulated point by those in charge.

But let's stop making this personal, shall we? Can you answer my question already?

Why would D* leave DLB off their proprietary DVR at the very moment in the history of digital content delivery that will decide who wins and who loses? Why isn't it there? Why take such a huge risk with the future of the company in the balance unneccessarily? DLB's on many other DVR's and has been around for over 10 years. Can't be _that _hard. Why would D* leave it off?

BJ


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> But let's stop making this personal, shall we?


Hardware first.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> Hardware first.


LOL. That was [my opinion] very funny.

BJ


----------



## Knon2000

To be totally honest, if you are dumping NFL sunday ticket because of DLB not working, you can't be much of a football fan. DLB works great, but for NFL ST, the workaround actually is sufficient, and like I have stated several times already, football is really the only thing that I used DLB for anyway.

BTW, last I checked, DVR stood for Digital Video Recorder. It doesn't stand for Dual Live Buffer capable receiver. It apparently wasn't intended as a feature of it, just like OTA wasn't a feature that was included with the HR21. 
If you really need DLB, well, you do have options, it just will *NEVER *be the HR20/21 product line (from what I have been led to believe anyway)


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> *Drew2k I don't get how you take from my response that I believe or think I am "owed" something.*
> 
> Fundamentally, all pro-DLB'ers are [my opinion] selfish and unappreciative.


You obviously don't spend enough time outside of the DLB thread to see how many of the pro-DLB crowd operate.



> ... and they're self-aborbed in their DLB pity, refusing to see how fortunate they really are and how much D* cares about their happiness.


Bullcocky. 

Again, go spend time elsewhere to see how pro-DLB folk are happy with their HR2X DVRs, with their enhanced auto record searches, with their HD expansion, with the constant improvement by DIRECTV, with the CE program ...

The only self-absorbed posters I see are ...



> *You've misunderstood my post completely. First, I never said I felt the intention of this thread was meant to be pro-DLB. I think my statement is rather simple. Starting out as a poll and discussion on DLB, with the majority of all voters wanting DLB and most of the posts asking for DLB, this thread has become pro-DLB. It's not complicated - this is a pro-DLB crowd and since the pro-DLB crowd outnumbers the anti-DLB crowd, this becomes a pro-DLB thread simply by the fact that this is the way the posts stack up.*
> 
> One can understand how you come to that conclusion, but the title of this thread asks everyone in the DBS community to offer their "thoughts on DLB". It doesn't say "if you want DLB, post here" or "if you have an opinion that is against the grain, please go away". The original thread was a pro-DLB pity-party and was put to sleep. This thread is a neutral safe-haven to discuss the importance of DLB. That's a pretty clearly articulated point by those in charge.


Are you deliberatly baiting me? This thread is turning into what the other thread started out to be, even though this thread didn't start out as a pro-DLB rally. Simply because the majority of the posters want DLB, this is a pro-DLB thread. Consider a caucus between two candidates: A and B. The caucus starts out neutral, but as caucusing gets underway, it becomes obvious if the room is Pro-A or Pro-B. This thread is a caucus room, and it's obvious the room is Pro-DLB. I shall not explain this again, nor shall I respond again that you fail to see what I am pointing out.



> But let's stop making this personal, shall we?


I wonder if you are making it personal when you taunt people that DLB ain't coming and you question their motivations and call them selfish and pitiable ...



> Can you answer my question already?


*Again? Really? Again?*



> Why would D* leave DLB off their proprietary DVR at the very moment in the history of digital content delivery that will decide who wins and who loses? Why isn't it there? Why take such a huge risk with the future of the company in the balance unneccessarily? DLB's on many other DVR's and has been around for over 10 years. Can't be _that _hard. Why would D* leave it off?


Oh .... my .... God! I answered this already, are you skipping posts? Do you have selective memory? I will not answer *this* again either.

You are one your own, buddy. Continue to rant about how evil DLB is, and how it detracts from the purity that is the HR20, and continue to drive traffic to this thread. You do put on a good show ... I'm done with you.


----------



## Drew2k

To Rich: The ABOVE response was slightly less than calm.


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> DLB's on many other DVR's and has been around for over 10 years. Can't be _that _hard. Why would D* leave it off?
> 
> BJ


Can't you at least get some of your facts straight? The DVR has only been around for 9 years total. The DirecTV TiVo didn't come out until 2000 and gained DLB a few months later. That was the first box with DLB. And for the umpteenth time, since DLB originally showed up in the original SDTiVo, it's not just a plaything for the rich!


----------



## dennisj00

boltjames said:


> The McDonald's analogy was designed to illustrate how the elimination of it's tweakiest sandwich in 1983, beloved but only by a fraction of the dining public, did nothing to slow the corporations rapid growth and cost it not a single disatisfied customer.
> 
> I didn't know that McD's had a backdoor hack that let certain customers get the McRib in 2008.
> 
> DLB is not a "method to record HD programming". DLB is a "method to watch two live television broadcasts simultaneously". It's not a core function of a DVR. It's a jump button on steriods. It's not germaine to a DVR. It's a happy accident. Well, it _was _a happy accident. Now it's just a memory.
> 
> BJ


Again, more drivel with no facts, just opinions. "Cost it not a single disatisfied customer" is a pretty bold statement with 0 facts!

And I said NOTHING about DLB was a method to record HD -- I said Directv had ONE method of recording HD -- and look on the HR20/21 thread and tell me NOBODY is having problems! Not one single customer!


----------



## jheda

Drewsky..finally...join us in the ignore nirvana....The re-creation of this thread BJ craved for failed to do what he wished; after 1000 votes, 2/3 of the presnt voters demand DLB as a feature of the DVR. So now hes back to his sabotage agenda...

:backtotop



Drew2k said:


> You obviously don't spend enough time outside of the DLB thread to see how many of the pro-DLB crowd operate.
> 
> Bullcocky.
> 
> Again, go spend time elsewhere to see how pro-DLB folk are happy with their HR2X DVRs, with their enhanced auto record searches, with their HD expansion, with the constant improvement by DIRECTV, with the CE program ...
> 
> The only self-absorbed posters I see are ...
> 
> Are you deliberatly baiting me? This thread is turning into what the other thread started out to be, even though this thread didn't start out as a pro-DLB rally. Simply because the majority of the posters want DLB, this is a pro-DLB thread. Consider a caucus between two candidates: A and B. The caucus starts out neutral, but as caucusing gets underway, it becomes obvious if the room is Pro-A or Pro-B. This thread is a caucus room, and it's obvious the room is Pro-DLB. I shall not explain this again, nor shall I respond again that you fail to see what I am pointing out.
> 
> I wonder if you are making it personal when you taunt people that DLB ain't coming and you question their motivations and call them selfish and pitiable ...
> 
> *Again? Really? Again?*
> 
> Oh .... my .... God! I answered this already, are you skipping posts? Do you have selective memory? I will not answer *this* again either.
> 
> You are one your own, buddy. Continue to rant about how evil DLB is, and how it detracts from the purity that is the HR20, and continue to drive traffic to this thread. You do put on a good show ... I'm done with you.


----------



## jheda

Im curious richie why do you maintain the hr10-250???



richierich said:


> WELL SAID!!! Never really thought about it like that!!! VERY TRUE STATEMENTS!!!


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Screw it up? Compared to what? Like you Rich, I've had these things for a long time now, and there's no end to the screw-ups.


Think back a year. That's what I meant when I said "screw it up". You know what we went thru and they have been relatively (and I say that with a slight shudder) stable for the last few months.

I don't want to go thru what we went thru last year. Just for the sake of appeasing the folks who want DLBs. Believe me, I can appreciate their desire for them. When I want something, I WANT it and I don't care what it takes to get it.

That's the only concern I have. If D* puts out an NR that allows a DLB function I will not use it. I'm into time shifting and not watching live TV.

I have gotten used to the screw ups. Ultimate TV DVRs failed on a regular basis, and my TiVos went thru HDs frequently. I can live with the 20/21s as they are now.

Rich


----------



## jheda

It is a complete assumption that by adding DLB we will "go back to what we had last year." No one with any authority has stated that the issue is adding DLB subtracts stability. Untill that time that argument holds no water, IMHO. 
The best guess we have is that D* believes other features on the drawing board take priorites right now, and although DLB is on their radar, its way off center. (We = non moderators who have a ken interest in this feature and have read just about every post from day one of the hr2x in re DLB)



rich584 said:


> Think back a year. That's what I meant when I said "screw it up". You know what we went thru and they have been relatively (and I say that with a slight shudder) stable for the last few months.
> 
> I don't want to go thru what we went thru last year. Just for the sake of appeasing the folks who want DLBs. Believe me, I can appreciate their desire for them. When I want something, I WANT it and I don't care what it takes to get it.
> 
> That's the only concern I have. If D* puts out an NR that allows a DLB function I will not use it. I'm into time shifting and not watching live TV.
> 
> I have gotten used to the screw ups. Ultimate TV DVRs failed on a regular basis, and my TiVos went thru HDs frequently. I can live with the 20/21s as they are now.
> 
> Rich


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> You thought I wasn't calm?


Not as calm as you usually are.



> Anyway, I still have Cablevision because it's part of my associate fees


Don't tell me you live somewhere that has an association that tells you what trees to plant and what kind of fence you can install, etc. My brother and my brother-in-law both live in developments that have associations and they can't even park their boats in their driveways.



> and I can't shut it off


My God!



> but I'll still have cable service.


They actually force you to subscribe to cable? Or have I completely misunderstood your post?

Rich


----------



## jheda

BTW, I also live where the entire CITY pays for cable through their association, so i too have cable in addition to Dtv


rich584 said:


> Not as calm as you usually are.
> 
> Don't tell me you live somewhere that has an association that tells you what trees to plant and what kind of fence you can install, etc. My brother and my brother-in-law both live in developments that have associations and they can't even park their boats in their driveways.
> 
> My God!
> 
> They actually force you to subscribe to cable? Or have I completely misunderstood your post?
> 
> Rich


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> To Rich: The ABOVE response was slightly less than calm.


Just slightly.

BJ could have left out the "elitist" crack, but I have the sense that he is just as frustrated as you are.

He's outnumbered and I've been there and I know what he's going thru. Ya gotta give him credit for being persistent, tho.

Rich


----------



## Rich

ToddinVA said:


> And for the umpteenth time, since DLB originally showed up in the original SDTiVo, it's not just a plaything for the rich!


Had you capitalized "rich" I would have felt like the "Donald".

Rich


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> Im curious richie why do you maintain the hr10-250???


Speaking of "ignore lists", he made mine a few weeks ago.

Rich


----------



## Que

rich584 said:


> Not as calm as you usually are.
> 
> Don't tell me you live somewhere that has an association that tells you what trees to plant and what kind of fence you can install, etc. My brother and my brother-in-law both live in developments that have associations and they can't even park their boats in their driveways.
> 
> My God!
> 
> They actually force you to subscribe to cable? Or have I completely misunderstood your post?
> 
> Rich


[my opinion] Take it to PM!

I use to get free cable with my cable modem but, they put a filter on it no more free cable tv.  Now let talk about DLB!!

:backtotop


----------



## Que

rich584 said:


> Speaking of "ignore lists", he made mine a few weeks ago.
> 
> Rich


Yeah I love that .... just added one!  Only thing is people quote the people I have on ignore. Really wish they would not fall into the TRAP and just not reply at all.


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> Yeah I love that .... just added one!  Only thing is people quote the people I have on ignore. Really wish they would not fall into the TRAP and just not reply at all.


Agree completely. Please stop quoting Que in your posts people. Thanks.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

rich584 said:


> Just slightly.
> 
> BJ could have left out the "elitist" crack, but I have the sense that he is just as frustrated as you are.
> 
> He's outnumbered and I've been there and I know what he's going thru. Ya gotta give him credit for being persistent, tho.
> 
> Rich


I'm not outnumbered. I represent the silent majority. You know, the millions who are pefectly happy without a feature that is counterintuitive to the DVR. A feature that instead of making it easier to record and timeshift instead forces you to watch two programs simultaneously, barely enjoying either one.

BJ


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> I'm not outnumbered. I represent the silent majority.


Not doing a good job on the _*silent*_ part.

(I'm always suspicious of people making that claim.)


----------



## ysiamrich

I am a newb and probably shouldn't get in the middle but I really miss DLB. Overall, I love the HR21-700 but really miss that feature. I have a long habit of having Robin on Headline News on one channel and ESPN on the other in the morning and it was easy to quickly switch back and forth during commericals.


----------



## ATARI

ysiamrich said:


> I am a newb and probably shouldn't get in the middle but I really miss DLB. Overall, I love the HR21-700 but really miss that feature. I have a long habit of having Robin on Headline News on one channel and ESPN on the other in the morning and it was easy to quickly switch back and forth during commericals.


Welcome!

All opinions count. Pro and Con. Doesn't matter what your post count is or your join date.


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> It is a complete assumption that by adding DLB we will "go back to what we had last year." No one with any authority has stated that the issue is adding DLB subtracts stability. Untill that time that argument holds no water, IMHO.


Wasn't an argument. Was a statement of fear.

Rich


----------



## boltjames

ysiamrich said:


> I am a newb and probably shouldn't get in the middle but I really miss DLB. Overall, I love the HR21-700 but really miss that feature. I have a long habit of having Robin on Headline News on one channel and ESPN on the other in the morning and it was easy to quickly switch back and forth during commericals.


First off, welcome aboard.

Second, seeing that morning news and ESPN news occur on a regular, daily schedule, you may find that recording both programs each morning on the HR21 will give you the same DLB freedom that you once had. If you set each recording just to keep 1 episode in memory, it won't clutter up your recording capacity or organization too badly.

Most that miss DLB, and it happens to me occassionally, is when there's something spontaneous going on that you can't pre-plan. Two NFL games headed to OT, the end of a timeshifted E! expose overlapping the beginning of your favorite sitcom, etc.

The fact that your long habit each morning of ESPN vs. CNN occurs on a regular and scheduled basis makes you the perfect candidate for JRBS* in lieu of DLB.

BJ
* Just Record Both Shows


----------



## bleucheeseburger

About 3-4 years ago I taught my wife how to use the DLBs. She became an expert and would watch 2 different shows at once regularly.
Soon, by cycling through the tuners and changing to the channel she wanted to buffer for a while to avoid commercials she was succesfully watching 3-4 programs at the same time.
For me watching Dancing With The Stars, HGTV, The Food Network and Deal or No Deal was dizzying. Trying to watch all the stuff another person is watching is like being a passenger in your own car.

We have 4 250s. They are dying one at a time. I replaced the HDs in two and finally decided since they were going to be faded out eventually it wasn't worth the money or time to keep fixing them.
I got 3 hr21s and kept the 250s. So now I have a 21/250 combo in the Basement, Living Room and Bedroom. I figured I would introduce the new machines gradually by leaving the 250s in place until I could show her the benefits of the new boxes/technology. (right)
Right after the hr21 was installed in the living room the 250 began to lock-up repeatedly. Another dying hd I'm sure. Then the pj lamp burned out in the basement. We were forced to watch the new 21 in the living room until the new bulb shows($649!!).

She freaked when I told her no more flicking between tuners. It was like I slapped the pipe out of a crackhead's mouth.
She said "so you mean I can't watch Nancy Grace and Designed to Sell at the same time?!"
I just kept thinking, Nancy Grace? Should I even show her the work-around? If I don't, what if she chooses Nancy Grace as her SLB choice? 

She has been watching all her "programs" in the bedroom every since.

The lamp should arrive for the pj by tommorow and I will probably order another db35.

Seriously though, I miss the DLBs like crazy. We are both avid college hoops fans and without the DLBs it just not the same.
I am so glad we kept the 250s. I hope they don't shut off the mp2 feed anytime soon.


----------



## boltjames

bleucheeseburger said:


> Soon, by cycling through the tuners and changing to the channel she wanted to buffer for a while to avoid commercials she was succesfully watching 3-4 programs at the same time.
> For me watching Dancing With The Stars, HGTV, The Food Network and Deal or No Deal was dizzying. Trying to watch all the stuff another person is watching is like being a passenger in your own car.


First off, welcome to DLB.

Next, you are half-joking but the truth is that I felt liberated by losing DLB. With it, I always felt the temptation to find out what else was on and always felt the pressure to keep the second tuner on a channel that I liked. I felt like I was always doing double the work instead of just enjoying what I was watching.

That's why, to me, the "loss" of DLB is a major gain. It's not part of the DVR's feature set. It's a jump button on steroids and has its uses during live sports but the negatives and headaches far outweigh the positives.

BJ


----------



## bleucheeseburger

boltjames said:


> First off, welcome to DLB.
> 
> Next, you are half-joking but the truth is that I felt liberated by losing DLB. With it, I always felt the temptation to find out what else was on and always felt the pressure to keep the second tuner on a channel that I liked. I felt like I was always doing double the work instead of just enjoying what I was watching.
> 
> That's why, to me, the "loss" of DLB is a major gain. It's not part of the DVR's feature set. It's a jump button on steroids and has its uses during live sports but the negatives and headaches far outweigh the positives.
> 
> BJ


Thanks for the welcome. I have been lurking on this site for a couple years now.
I am a bit of a geek but not nearly as up on the technology as I would like to be.
(Yet still more than the guys who installed the new DVRs)

My opinion on the whole thing is, I would like to have the option to use the DLBs.
I think removing it was a ridiculous step backwards.

I am guessing Directv has their reasons with being able to tell what you are watching/recording at any given time being one of them.
Did you ever try to select "Do Not Allow Data Collection" in the Account Profile on directvs web site. It just won't let you. I'll bet they make a decent buck selling user's viewing habits.

There is one cool thing I discovered today. You can set-up a program to record on the hr21 from the directv.com web site.
I just told it to record American Idol while I am stuck here at work.
We'll see if it worked when I get home.


----------



## boltjames

bleucheeseburger said:


> There is one cool thing I discovered today. You can set-up a program to record on the hr21 from the directv.com web site.
> I just told it to record American Idol while I am stuck here at work.
> We'll see if it worked when I get home.


Yeah, there's also a mobile version of it which I've used on my iPod Touch in a Starbucks to program my HR21 to record The Goodnight Show from Shanghai.










BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> First off, welcome to DLB.
> 
> Next, you are half-joking but the truth is that I felt liberated by losing DLB. With it, I always felt the temptation to find out what else was on and always felt the pressure to keep the second tuner on a channel that I liked. I felt like I was always doing double the work instead of just enjoying what I was watching.
> 
> That's why, to me, the "loss" of DLB is a major gain. It's not part of the DVR's feature set. It's a jump button on steroids and has its uses during live sports but the negatives and headaches far outweigh the positives.
> 
> BJ


Are you serious? Channel surfing is stressful? How else can you determine what new programming is desirable to potentially record? DLB allows one to watch a known and desirable entity while searching for new content without having to go through the pain of recording everything that is interesting from the guide.

Watching TV shouldn't be stressful unless the HR box is unreliable or causes playback issues...


----------



## anubys

ATARI said:


> Welcome!
> 
> All opinions count. Pro and Con. Doesn't matter what your post count is or your join date.


that's true, but we won't tell him about the invisible posts that only people like us can see, right?

:lol:

I'm really starting to think that BJ is very pro-DLB and his posts are simply to keep the DLB conversation going...it's the only way I can make sense of his posts (this is not a dig or an insult)...


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> Are you serious? Channel surfing is stressful? How else can you determine what new programming is desirable to potentially record? DLB allows one to watch a known and desirable entity while searching for new content without having to go through the pain of recording everything that is interesting from the guide.


What I'm saying is that with DLB I always felt obligated to set up the second tuner when I was watching the first. Was like I had to make a decision on which second show I _might _want to see so that it was there if I felt like jumping. After awhile it became habit and every time I sat down and started the HR10 it took me twice as long to settle in and watch TV because I was so distracted by setting up the second tuner all the time.

I find that now it's much easier. Just turn on the HR20, go to the show I really want to see, and that's it. If there are truly two must-see shows on simultaneously, I'll just record the second-choice and be done with it. To me, the hassle of STS* wasn't worth the price of DLB admission and I'm glad it's gone.

BJ
*Second Tuner Stress


----------



## rick71ghia

boltjames said:


> What I'm saying is that with DLB I always felt obligated to set up the second tuner when I was watching the first. Was like I had to make a decision on which second show I _might _want to see so that it was there if I felt like jumping. After awhile it became habit and every time I sat down and started the HR10 it took me twice as long to settle in and watch TV because I was so distracted by setting up the second tuner all the time.
> 
> I find that now it's much easier. Just turn on the HR20, go to the show I really want to see, and that's it. If there are truly two must-see shows on simultaneously, I'll just record the second-choice and be done with it. To me, the hassle of STS* wasn't worth the price of DLB admission and I'm glad it's gone.
> 
> BJ
> *Second Tuner Stress


Let me see if I have this correct.

You don't want DLB added because your obsessive compulsive behavior won't allow you to ignore the feature.


----------



## anubys

rick71ghia said:


> Let me see if I have this correct.
> 
> You don't want DLB added because your obsessive compulsive behavior won't allow you to ignore the feature.


I'll take it a step further, I think BJ would be much happier if DirecTV offered one -- and only one -- channel...

he would be totally stress free when watching TV...no time wasted deciding what to watch...


----------



## ATARI

anubys said:


> I'm really starting to think that BJ is very pro-DLB and his posts are simply to keep the DLB conversation going...it's the only way I can make sense of his posts (this is not a dig or an insult)...


So maybe BJ is a closet DLB user?

Yep, I could see that.

Me thinks he doths protest too much.


----------



## CtDMonet

2 games at once? I have watched up to six at once (10-250; HDVR2; DVR-40) using DLB. I guess I can press record and pause if I upgrade, but it seems like a pain in the patootie when I can currently just use my down arrow. One more reason to not upgrade? Does Dish have DLB?


----------



## ATARI

CtDMonet said:


> 2 games at once? I have watched up to six at once (10-250; HDVR2; DVR-40) using DLB. I guess I can press record and pause if I upgrade, but it seems like a pain in the patootie when I can currently just use my down arrow. One more reason to not upgrade? Does Dish have DLB?


Yes, Dish Vip622 has DLB.


----------



## Drew2k

ATARI said:


> So maybe BJ is a closet DLB user?
> 
> Yep, I could see that.
> 
> Me thinks he doths protest too much.


Yup ... this revelation occurred way back on March 13th. (2nd paragraph below) 



Drew2k said:


> I would like to personally thank BoltJames for helping to keep the DLB flame burning brightly. Without you, this thread would surely have died a thousand times already. Thank you for fanning the flames and keeping the spirit alive!
> 
> Now we all know that you're privately a fan of DLB but are acting as a sleeper agent, publicly opposed to DLB, simply so the conversation won't end and we keep the attention on DLB where it belongs. Well done, BJ, well done! :up:


----------



## dennisj00

boltjames said:


> What I'm saying is that with DLB I always felt obligated to set up the second tuner when I was watching the first. Was like I had to make a decision on which second show I _might _want to see so that it was there if I felt like jumping. After awhile it became habit and every time I sat down and started the HR10 it took me twice as long to settle in and watch TV because I was so distracted by setting up the second tuner all the time.
> 
> I find that now it's much easier. Just turn on the HR20, go to the show I really want to see, and that's it. If there are truly two must-see shows on simultaneously, I'll just record the second-choice and be done with it. To me, the hassle of STS* wasn't worth the price of DLB admission and I'm glad it's gone.
> 
> BJ
> *Second Tuner Stress


Can't ignore this one! BJ, there are 12 step programs for such problems!!

Don't blame it on DLB!


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> Yup ... this revelation occurred way back on March 13th. (2nd paragraph below)


ah...see, the problem is that you assumed we read your posts!

:lol:


----------



## jheda

I meant argument in the legal sense, aka point. Sorry for any confusion, I never dis any one else who bleeds pinstripes 



rich584 said:


> Wasn't an argument. Was a statement of fear.
> 
> Rich


----------



## Rich

bleucheeseburger said:


> Thanks for the welcome. I have been lurking on this site for a couple years now.
> I am a bit of a geek but not nearly as up on the technology as I would like to be.
> (Yet still more than the guys who installed the new DVRs)


How could that be, they are highly trained and able to cope with any situation? I have been assured of this several times by the highly trained CSRs at D*.



> My opinion on the whole thing is, I would like to have the option to use the DLBs.
> I think removing it was a ridiculous step backwards.


The HR20/21s have never had them. What you are looking at is a different device entirely. Can't step back from what never existed.



> I am guessing Directv has their reasons with being able to tell what you are watching/recording at any given time being one of them.
> Did you ever try to select "Do Not Allow Data Collection" in the Account Profile on directvs web site. It just won't let you. I'll bet they make a decent buck selling user's viewing habits.


I hope D* makes buckets of money and applies it to new satellite launches and more R&D, with emphasis on the R&D.



> There is one cool thing I discovered today. You can set-up a program to record on the hr21 from the directv.com web site.
> I just told it to record American Idol while I am stuck here at work.
> We'll see if it worked when I get home.


It will work. And you can do it with each 20/21 you have. I would imagine you can do it with cell phones that have Internet access too.

Have you tried pushing "Play" when a folder is highlighted? Every show in the folder will play starting with the oldest to the newest. You don't have to push another button and the contents of the folder will play in sequence until you've seen all the shows. Try that with a TiVo.

Rich


----------



## anubys

rich584 said:


> Have you tried pushing "Play" when a folder is highlighted? Every show in the folder will play starting with the oldest to the newest. You don't have to push another button and the contents of the folder will play in sequence until you've seen all the shows. Try that with a TiVo.
> 
> Rich


I had no idea you can do that...the HR20 ROCKS (well, except for the lack of DLB thing, anyway  )

seriously...thanks for the tip...


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Are you serious? Channel surfing is stressful?


Did you happen to read my post the other day about channel surfing? I used a stop watch and timed the pauses between channels. I think the shortest time was 7 seconds and the longest over 15 seconds. I've avoided channel surfing since I got the HR20s and, as a matter of fact, I don't remembered the last time I surfed. At home. Might have been 10-20 years.

But to get back to the channel surfing. That supposed to be click, click, click. Not click.................click................click. My 20s and my 21 are all the same in this regard. I don't make the 20/21s do anything they are obviously uncomfortable with. Don't want to hurt my precioussssss (Harsh, I can't ssssstop).



> How else can you determine what new programming is desirable to potentially record?


I record everything that looks interesting and use the "save all" option. I watch the first show as quickly as I can and if it's worthwhile, I leave the series link in place, otherwise, I go to the priority list and erase the series link. This is the same thing I did with VCRs.



> Watching TV shouldn't be stressful unless the HR box is unreliable or causes playback issues...


Doc, they are ALL unreliable. That's why I have so many. Back up, back up, back up. I learned my lesson with Ultimate TV DVRs. Matter of fact, I did the same thing with the VCRs. Before I switched to D*, I had 12 VCRs going. And I never trusted them either.

Rich


----------



## Rich

anubys said:


> I had no idea you can do that...the HR20 ROCKS (well, except for the lack of DLB thing, anyway  )
> 
> seriously...thanks for the tip...


You're welcome. I don't remember how I find out about that. I do read the posted documentation on each release, but in this case I think something Earl posted led me to explore the "play folder" function.

Wonder what else we're all missing?

Rich


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> ...
> 
> The HR20/21s have never had them. What you are looking at is a different device entirely. Can't step back from what never existed.
> 
> ...
> 
> Rich


Let me call BS.










IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


----------



## Green23

btmoore said:


> Let me call BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


+1


----------



## dennisj00

Well said, BT!!


----------



## Rich

btmoore said:


> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot.


You got that worked up over that simple statement of fact? Wow. I try so hard not to be insulting or make dumb statements or be obstinate or be a "fan boy" (I have no idea what that is, by the way), and as much as I want to reply in kind, I won't.



> Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


I have to agree with your very logical argument. Hard to believe a person who can write a logical argument like that can write a sentence like the first one in your post.

Rich


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> You got that worked up over that simple statement of fact? Wow. I try so hard not to be insulting or make dumb statements or be obstinate or be a "fan boy" (I have no idea what that is, by the way), and as much as I want to reply in kind, I won't.
> 
> I have to agree with your very logical argument. Hard to believe a person who can write a logical argument like that can write a sentence like the first one in your post.
> 
> Rich


Fanboy (sometimes spelled fanboi)

Or

fanboy


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> I meant argument in the legal sense, aka point. Sorry for any confusion, I never dis any one else who bleeds pinstripes


I see what you meant. It did confuse me. I'd be happy if they'd leave them alone now that they are now relatively stable. It sounds like a lot of the posters are having the same problems we had a year ago. I really don't want to go thru that again.

Too bad the Red Sox didn't lose both games in Japan. Be nice to start the season ahead in the standings.

Rich


----------



## Rich

btmoore said:


> Fanboy (sometimes spelled fanboi)[/URL




And my obsession would be what? My fear that the good engineers at D* will screw everything up and we'll have to go thru another extended period like we went thru last year? Can't be that.

Think I'm obsessed with the 20/21s? The only good thing I can say about them is that they are relatively stable now. Do I trust them? No. That's why I have so many and can back programs up. There is no practical alternative. Not cable. Not FIOS.

The only reason I got D* in the first place is that my local cable provider wasn't going to broadcast the YES network. I certainly feel no allegiance to D*. I'd bail if I could get something better. Can't be that.

I don't care about DLBs, but I'm not obsessive about that.

So, what is my "obsession"?

Rich


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> And my obsession would be what? My fear that the good engineers at D* will screw everything up and we'll have to go thru another extended period like we went thru last year? Can't be that.
> 
> Think I'm obsessed with the 20/21s? The only good thing I can say about them is that they are relatively stable now. Do I trust them? No. That's why I have so many and can back programs up. There is no practical alternative. Not cable. Not FIOS.
> 
> The only reason I got D* in the first place is that my local cable provider wasn't going to broadcast the YES network. I certainly feel no allegiance to D*. I'd bail if I could get something better. Can't be that.
> 
> I don't care about DLBs, but I'm not obsessive about that.
> 
> So, what is my "obsession"?
> 
> Rich


I called it a fanboy argument, I didn't call you a fanboy. Feeling defensive? :lol:


----------



## ToddinVA

rich584 said:


> The HR20/21s have never had them. What you are looking at is a different device entirely. Can't step back from what never existed.


I'm getting a little tired of hearing this particular argument. You might be able to make it if the HR20 was sold as a separate line alongside TiVo (or something else) that had DLB. However, the HR20 is obviously the successor to the HR10 and therefore any features that disappeared between the HR10 and the HR20 (i.e. DLB and suggestions...) could legitimately be considered dropped and therefore a step backward.


----------



## beer_geek

btmoore said:


> Let me call BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


A-freakin-men!


----------



## vicmeldrew

beer_geek said:


> A-freakin-men!


i also agree; i had mlb season pass last year and got my letter today to upgrade to HD to make the experience even better; but by not having dlb i would actually enjoy it less if i got the HD; and since mlb is available on Cox now i am still planning on moving at the end of the month; i will be back if dlb gets implemented.


----------



## Que

btmoore said:


> Let me call BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


NICE post! Very well said.

HR10 to HR20/HR21 sounds like the same DVR with upgrades....but, it's not. Maybe call it DR20 and DR21.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I would like to politely ask that we back down just a bit. No one means to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm sure. 

Although personally I would take no exception if someone called me a fanboy, as long as it was about something I liked, as opposed to, for example, gardening shows or Rainbow Brite.


----------



## Rich

btmoore said:


> I called it a fanboy argument, I didn't call you a fanboy. Feeling defensive? :lol:


That was the inference I took from the implication. Semantics. You gotta admit that first sentence in your post was uncalled for. All I did was state a fact. Your argument was clear and I could see where you were coming from. I was ONLY referring to the 20/21s when I wrote my original comment. I saw your point immediately when I finished reading your post and agreed with it.

As for being "defensive", here's a rather pointed definition:

"Constantly protecting oneself from criticism, exposure of one's shortcomings, or other real or perceived threats to the ego." I get these rather neat definitions from a FoxFire extension. This one seemed to fit your question.

I have never minded criticism, I freely admit my shortcomings and I'm hardly an egotist (I don't think I am anyhow, have to ask Fred). What I didn't want to do is get into a name calling contest over the internet. Kinda like playing Internet Poker. A lose lose situation.

The only reason I get on this forum is to gather information. Or to help others, when I can.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would like to politely ask that we back down just a bit. No one means to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm sure.
> 
> Although personally I would take no exception if someone called me a fanboy, as long as it was about something I liked, as opposed to, for example, gardening shows or Rainbow Brite.


I didn't take it as an insult, I just didn't know what he meant. And I have no idea what "Rainbow Brite" is.


----------



## Rich

btmoore said:


> I called it a fanboy argument, I didn't call you a fanboy. Feeling defensive? :lol:


By the way, you never did answer my question about my "obsession".

Rich


----------



## BubblePuppy

rich584 said:


> And I have no idea what "Rainbow Brite" is.


http://www.rainbowbrite.net/

I hope he isn't a fanboy of this......:lol:


----------



## MX727

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Brite

My problem with D is that they marketed the TiVo units and the features that were inherent. I switched because they offered TiVo. It should come as no surprise that, when they abandon TiVo in the new boxes and don't incorporate the major features of the TiVo box in their Plus series, I am going to be a disappointed customer.


----------



## ATARI

So back to the car analogy:

I have had a car for years and it is working great, but it uses regular gas. Now I am told that regualr gas is being phased out and only super unleaded will be available.
So I go back to the dealership I dealt with before (D* Motors, because for whatever reason, I like them better than E* Sales & Service). They lease me a new model (even though before this I had always bought my vehicles), and tell me it's better, because not only will it take regular and new super unleaded, it gets better MPG and has a bigger engine so I can drive faster.
Then while driving it home for the first time, I go to turn on the AC, and find that there is no AC. I thought AC was standard equipment. Afterall, everybody else's vehicle has AC. I immediately turn around and head back to the dealership.
The dealer, while understanding, says I am locked into a 2 year lease, nothing I can do about that. He does offer a 'workaround' for the lack of AC -- roll down the windows.
But it's not the same!!


----------



## Rich

BubblePuppy said:


> http://www.rainbowbrite.net/
> 
> I hope he isn't a fanboy of this......:lol:


Kind of scary to think that the Shadow knows about this.

Thanx for the link, I think.

Rich


----------



## ToddinVA

ATARI said:


> So back to the car analogy:
> 
> I have had a car for years and it is working great, but it uses regular gas. Now I am told that regualr gas is being phased out and only super unleaded will be available.
> So I go back to the dealership I dealt with before (D* Motors, because for whatever reason, I like them better than E* Sales & Service). They lease me a new model (even though before this I had always bought my vehicles), and tell me it's better, because not only will it take regular and new super unleaded, it gets better MPG and has a bigger engine so I can drive faster.
> Then while driving it home for the first time, I go to turn on the AC, and find that there is no AC. I thought AC was standard equipment. Afterall, everybody else's vehicle has AC. I immediately turn around and head back to the dealership.
> The dealer, while understanding, says I am locked into a 2 year lease, nothing I can do about that. He does offer a 'workaround' for the lack of AC -- roll down the windows.
> But it's not the same!!


Excellent analogy. It scares me though that you're starting to think like Bolt does, albeit in the opposite direction.... :lol:


----------



## btmoore

rich584 said:


> That was the inference I took from the implication. Semantics. You gotta admit that first sentence in your post was uncalled for. All I did was state a fact. Your argument was clear and I could see where you were coming from. I was ONLY referring to the 20/21s when I wrote my original comment. I saw your point immediately when I finished reading your post and agreed with it.
> 
> As for being "defensive", here's a rather pointed definition:
> 
> "Constantly protecting oneself from criticism, exposure of one's shortcomings, or other real or perceived threats to the ego." I get these rather neat definitions from a FoxFire extension. This one seemed to fit your question.
> 
> I have never minded criticism, I freely admit my shortcomings and I'm hardly an egotist (I don't think I am anyhow, have to ask Fred). What I didn't want to do is get into a name calling contest over the internet. Kinda like playing Internet Poker. A lose lose situation.
> 
> The only reason I get on this forum is to gather information. Or to help others, when I can.
> 
> Rich


You happened to be the one that walked in the cross-hairs at this time I fired. Why I said "IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here" because I think it is, and not uncalled for at all which is why I used my officially sanctioned BS flag and called a "dumbest, obstinate, fan boy" penitly.  This rhetoric gets repeated alot as the excuse for D*s poor execution, along with all the other crap about it not being a tivo, or it being the DVR+ platform, yada yada yada. Maybe you are or are not a fanboy, I don't know ya, you seem like a reasonable guy, you just happened to use what I think is one of their favorite thread crapper lines and I shot back. I could rattle off a collection of D*fenders who have used this rational over for many many months to justify the glaring functional holes in this forced migration to the HR2X platform if you want any kind of HD DVR, but they already know who they are or they are in deeo deep denial. Your timing was just bad, that tired worn out excuse just hit my BS limit and I shot. IMO D* just just fix the damn thing (functionally and technically) or get off the pot and buy some good code.

and btw, I was just joking about being defensive, that is why I put the little yuck yuck lol guy " :lol: " at the end.



rich584 said:


> By the way, you never did answer my question about my "obsession".
> 
> Rich


You got me, I don't know you, I thought it was a rhetorical question. If I were you, I wouldn't get too obsessed over it. :lol:


----------



## btmoore

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would like to politely ask that we back down just a bit. No one means to hurt anyone's feelings, I'm sure.
> 
> Although personally I would take no exception if someone called me a fanboy, as long as it was about something I liked, as opposed to, for example, gardening shows or Rainbow Brite.


perhaps you should change your avitar:


----------



## James Long

:backtotop Get back to bashing BJ before we all puke. :lol:


(Oh, that wasn't the topic, was it? What was the topic? DLB?)
Ready for you Stewart, if you want to let your inner child out to play:


----------



## btmoore

Or better yet to stay on DLB topic:


----------



## bleucheeseburger

btmoore said:


> Let me call BS.
> 
> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


I guess I should have said omitted DLBs instead of removed. Still this is priceless.

I still miss DLB. How can I miss what I never had?

WVU 59 Xavier 57. Every other game ??

I couldn't post the flag link cause I'm so new.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> :backtotop Get back to bashing BJ before we all puke. :lol:
> 
> (Oh, that wasn't the topic, was it? What was the topic? DLB?)
> Ready for you Stewart, if you want to let your inner child out to play:


This thread and this site needs me. I may just pay for a membership. I'm extremely wealthy, so I probably should.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> So back to the car analogy:
> 
> I have had a car for years and it is working great, but it uses regular gas. Now I am told that regualr gas is being phased out and only super unleaded will be available.
> So I go back to the dealership I dealt with before (D* Motors, because for whatever reason, I like them better than E* Sales & Service). They lease me a new model (even though before this I had always bought my vehicles), and tell me it's better, because not only will it take regular and new super unleaded, it gets better MPG and has a bigger engine so I can drive faster.
> Then while driving it home for the first time, I go to turn on the AC, and find that there is no AC. I thought AC was standard equipment. Afterall, everybody else's vehicle has AC. I immediately turn around and head back to the dealership.
> The dealer, while understanding, says I am locked into a 2 year lease, nothing I can do about that. He does offer a 'workaround' for the lack of AC -- roll down the windows.
> But it's not the same!!


Wow, so much wrong I barely know where to begin. AC is not analogous to DLB. Something like rubber bumps on the bottom of the floormats or the tactile feel of the rear window defogger switch would be more like it. Here's the proper car analogy:

You don't smoke. You bought a car with a cigarette lighter. Because it was there, you learned to smoke and enjoy it. Even though it has nothing to do with driving a car, the lighter was there so you became a smoker.

Years go by. The car is outdated. The new version of your car has amazing new features like GPS auto-steering, voice command accelleration, telepathic ignition, a retractible hard-top, and a prescription windshield. But the car company has come to the conclusion that the cigarette lighter is out. After all, smoking has nothing to do with driving. Just like there's no toilet paper dispenser, no fingernail clipper, no electric toothbrush charger, there's no cigarette lighter.

And instead of hailing the magnificence of the awesome new features that have everything to do with getting your car from A to B, and instead of being excited about your first new ride in years, you're going to whine about the missing lighter.

BJ


----------



## btmoore

boltjames said:


> ...
> 
> And instead of hailing the magnificence of the awesome new features that have everything to do with getting your car from A to B, and instead of being excited about your first new ride in years, you're going to whine about the missing lighter.
> 
> BJ


Yes because some short sighted numbnutz removed it because he doesnt understand that lighters are used to do things like give me a place to charge my phone which I use every freaking day. Just like the moron that decided not to include DLB.


----------



## boltjames

btmoore said:


> Yes because some short sighted numbnutz removed it because he doesnt understand that lighters are used to do things like give me a place to charge my phone which I use every freaking day. Just like the moron that decided not to include DLB.


The car has plenty of charging sockets. USB _and _standard two-prong, in fact. The lighter's only purpose was for cigarettes. Getting rid of it for the sake of other features was a smart move.

BJ


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> The lighter's only purpose was for cigarettes. Getting rid of it for the sake of other features was a smart move.


What is the difference between a 12v outlet and a lighter? A little heat protection and a plug that heats up when pushed in? How much did it save the automaker to put a power outlet in my dash instead of a lighter? $1?

Fortunately I don't smoke ... but DLB may just be as addictive ... and people buying a top of the line receiver may find it odd that the feature is missing.

And no, I don't consider it a public service that DirecTV is helping to break the DLB addiction. But I do appreciate every flaw that makes DISH Network receivers look better


----------



## Green23

boltjames said:


> The car has plenty of charging sockets. USB _and _standard two-prong, in fact. The lighter's only purpose was for cigarettes. Getting rid of it for the sake of other features was a smart move.
> 
> BJ


They left in the lighter, but removed the switch that controls the right side mirror, thinking that it wouldn't be missed. Now the car has 2 side mirrors like before, but you can't access one of them like all of the other car models can.


----------



## beer_geek

boltjames said:


> The new version of your car has amazing new features like GPS auto-steering, voice command accelleration, telepathic ignition, a retractible hard-top, and a prescription windshield. But the car company has come to the conclusion that the cigarette lighter is out. After all, smoking has nothing to do with driving. Just like there's no toilet paper dispenser, no fingernail clipper, no electric toothbrush charger, there's no cigarette lighter.
> 
> And instead of hailing the magnificence of the awesome new features that have everything to do with getting your car from A to B, and instead of being excited about your first new ride in years, you're going to whine about the missing lighter.
> 
> BJ


All of that stuff in a Camry??


----------



## tiger2005

James Long said:


> And no, I don't consider it a public service that DirecTV is helping to break the DLB addiction. But I do appreciate every flaw that makes DISH Network receivers look better


:hurah:

BOOM!! That's what you call laying the smack down.

And isn't this the MAIN point?!? For DirecTV to compete with the competition, at the least they need to have all of the features and reliability of the competition.


----------



## ATARI

tiger2005 said:


> For DirecTV to compete with the competition, at the least they need to have all of the features and reliability of the competition.


BINGO!!


----------



## Villanman

It may be me, but a DVR isn't going to be the deciding factor in what service I use to get HD channels. The deciding factor for me and the people I know is going to be price and content.


----------



## ToddinVA

Villanman said:


> It may be me, but a DVR isn't going to be the deciding factor in what service I use to get HD channels. The deciding factor for me and the people I know is going to be price and content.


For many of us though, the DVR is one of if not the biggest deciding factor in what service we choose to use. The main reason I switched from cable to DirecTV was the HR10. If I lose that, I will seriously consider cable again with a TiVo S3 and a TiVo HD....or I might switch to Dish.

If I lose the HR10 and they actually implement DLB on the HR20, then I will consider staying.


----------



## 94SupraTT

DLB on the HR2x would, IMO make it a far superior box than the HR10-250. I considered myself a DIEHARD Tivo guy. However, I love VOD (got me caught up on Dexter), MediaShare (WITHOUT HACKING THE BOX), and did I mention speed?  I honestly never realized how painfully slow my HR10 was until I got a HR2x. Do I miss DLB......of course I do. However all the other positives the HR2x has almost outweighs DLB. Now, I might change my tune come football season because that is when I used DLB most often. The interface took some getting used to and my wife hated it but she too is coming around.


----------



## Richierich

Villanman said:


> It may be me, but a DVR isn't going to be the deciding factor in what service I use to get HD channels. The deciding factor for me and the people I know is going to be price and content.


Price is not a big factor at this point and I don't think about PRICE everyday as D* is competitive with others but I do USE THIS DVR EVERYDAY and I like convenience & practicality.

DLB is just one of the many things I miss on my HR10-250 and I still have 2 of them and when I go back to watch something on one of them I realize how GREAT a unit it was and if it had all of the HD Channels that my HR21s have I would go back to it in a HEARTBEAT!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

When dealing with millions of potential and existing customers, every feature that is there vs. every feature that is missing will have an impact--including price, DVR feature set, channels and their packaging, payment options, etc. Everything matters one way or another.

Features that cost more than the potential change in customers might be considered removing--the trap is you also need to protect the brand itself. Remove too many features that don't pay for themselves directly and you create a far different brand than you might want--which becomes a potential tipping point for suddenly losing (or attracting fewer new) customers more than the sum of the individual features would.

Do I think DLB is important? Yes. (Of course, my opinion.) Is DIRECTV behind the competition in other areas, yes BUT catching up very fast. (Both also my opinion, based on the excellent feature reports you guys keep us updated with.)

Who will win the race? Who really cares because the race is never won, just individual laps around the track are. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## beer_geek

Tom Robertson said:


> When dealing with millions of potential and existing customers, every feature that is there vs. every feature that is missing will have an impact--including price, DVR feature set, channels and their packaging, payment options, etc. Everything matters one way or another.
> 
> Features that cost more than the potential change in customers might be considered removing--the trap is you also need to protect the brand itself. Remove too many features that don't pay for themselves directly and you create a far different brand than you might want--which becomes a potential tipping point for suddenly losing (or attracting fewer new) customers more than the sum of the individual features would.
> 
> Do I think DLB is important? Yes. (Of course, my opinion.) Is DIRECTV behind the competition in other areas, yes BUT catching up very fast. (Both also my opinion, based on the excellent feature reports you guys keep us updated with.)
> 
> Who will win the race? Who really cares because the race is never won, just individual laps around the track are.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Unfortunately, The Stig! doesn't appear to be behind the wheel.


----------



## jimb726

btmoore said:


> Yes because some short sighted numbnutz removed it because he doesnt understand that lighters are used to do things like give me a place to charge my phone which I use every freaking day. Just like the moron that decided not to include DLB.


I think a good analogy might be when Ford stopped putting a key lock on the passenger side of the car. Very very few people noticed it, the very few who did notice it, were outraged. How dare they have to walk around the car to have to unlock the drivers door? They called and were very passionate and complained, at the end of the day there were a lot more people who never even realized that there was even a lock on that side or they never used it. As stated earlier new advances and new features were totally ignored because of the omission of a thing they felt was terribly important to the way they used their vehicle. This feature added nothing to the core functionality of the car, but it was always a givent that there would be a keyhole on the passenger side of the car. Eventually the other manufacturers followed and the key fob was born, and now the people who were complaining by and large had a way to get in.


----------



## ToddinVA

beer_geek said:


> Unfortunately, The Stig! doesn't appear to be behind the wheel.


Exactly. But I really want Dual Live Stigs...

:lol:


----------



## ATARI

jimb726 said:


> I think a good analogy might be when Ford stopped putting a key lock on the passenger side of the car. Very very few people noticed it, the very few who did notice it, were outraged. How dare they have to walk around the car to have to unlock the drivers door? They called and were very passionate and complained, at the end of the day there were a lot more people who never even realized that there was even a lock on that side or they never used it. As stated earlier new advances and new features were totally ignored because of the omission of a thing they felt was terribly important to the way they used their vehicle. This feature added nothing to the core functionality of the car, but it was always a givent that there would be a keyhole on the passenger side of the car. Eventually the other manufacturers followed and the key fob was born, and now the people who were complaining by and large had a way to get in.


When will you people stop using the car analogies? -- I'm getting so sick of it.


----------



## jimb726

ATARI said:


> When will you people stop using the car analogies? -- I'm getting so sick of it.


The day that there is actually an alalogy that is analogous to the situation.:hurah:


----------



## Drew2k

Here's your analogy: DLB is to the DVR as call waiting is to the telephone.

Imagine if you were denied having call waiting, and could not pause the first call to flash to the 2nd.


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> All of that stuff in a Camry??


I was talking about DBS members, none of whom own a Camry. _Those _types still use AOL and probably don't know that their DVR's can record programs. Wouldn't know what a discussion forum is if one bit them in the leg.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Here's your analogy: DLB is to the DVR as call waiting is to the telephone.
> 
> Imagine if you were denied having call waiting, and could not pause the first call to flash to the 2nd.


The entire point of a telephone is to facilitate communication. Being able to differentiate between two simultaneous calls and choose the one you need to engage is almost as important as the simple function of making/answering calls.

The entire point of a DVR is to record programs and present them back to the viewer in an organized, consistent, and reliable manner. Being able to navigate, record, and play a mix of live and recorded broadcasts are the objectives of the device. Your analogy is appropriate when comparing a telephone's call waiting to the DVR's guide. They both are the UI for deciding upon which served content to engage with. Take the guide away from a DVR and, yes, that's as bad as a phone without call waiting. Thankfully, the HR20 has a guide so nothing to sweat there.

DLB is a happy accident. A strange, unintended byproduct of another purpose. The afterbirth of the "record one while watching another" core DVR function.

DLB is the "jump" button on steriods. It's Superjump. It's Skippy The Channel Hopper. It's purpose is counterintuitive to the DVR itself. Instead of allowing one to record two complete programs to watch at ones leisure, it does the opposite. Provides a platform for defocused, spastic viewing where one is forced to multi-task and watch both shows simultaneously and incompletely. Instead of a Leisurely Time Shifter For Recorded Programs, it's a Frenetic Time Compressor For Live Programs. The polar opposite of the DVR's intended functionality.

The proper analogy is that DLB is one of those rubber band balls. The rubber band is designed to stretch around something and hold it firmly together. But when one uses rubber bands to hold other rubber bands together, they eventually form a ball that is wound so tightly that it cannot hold anything but itself together and bounces all over the place, ironically becoming something that itself needs containment.

And while rubber band balls can be fun and have their fans, its nothing more than a happy accident that its designers never intended that completely defeats the original purpose of the product.










BJ


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> Here's your analogy: DLB is to the DVR as call waiting is to the telephone.
> 
> Imagine if you were denied having call waiting, and could not pause the first call to flash to the 2nd.


oooh...off-topic but I just hate call waiting...it's very rude...

I might just start being against DLB if it's analogous to call waiting! :grin:


----------



## jdouglas2000

I want DLB very much. Still have my HR-10 upstairs in the bedroom and I miss it on my main theatre system. It was one of the best features on the Tivo. Please bring it back!!!!!!!!


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> The entire point of a telephone is to facilitate communication. Being able to differentiate between two simultaneous calls and choose the one you need to engage is almost as important as the simple function of making/answering calls.
> 
> The entire point of a DVR is to record programs and present them back to the viewer in an organized, consistent, and reliable manner. Being able to navigate, record, and play a mix of live and recorded broadcasts are the objectives of the device. Your analogy is appropriate when comparing a telephone's call waiting to the DVR's guide. They both are the UI for deciding upon which served content to engage with. Take the guide away from a DVR and, yes, that's as bad as a phone without call waiting. Thankfully, the HR20 has a guide so nothing to sweat there.
> 
> DLB is a happy accident. A strange, unintended byproduct of another purpose. The afterbirth of the "record one while watching another" core DVR function.
> 
> BJ


Let me counter with a quote from someone who is wise beyond all of us.... "The entire point of a telephone is to facilitate communication. Being able to differentiate between two simultaneous calls and choose the one you need to engage is almost as important as the simple function of making/answering calls."

From this one quote you can easily see the entire purpose of DLB. It allows to you to put one line on hold/pause, and jump to another line and see if its better. If it is, you can stay. If not, you can easily go back to the first line and continue where you left off.

.......

Call waiting is nothing like the DVR guide. That would be caller ID. I would expect someone who brags about there wealth to have these options and be aware of their difference. Knowing its Joe Schmoe calling, is alot different from knowing Joe Schmoe is calling to say he is leaving a bar with 4 models and needs you to take 2 of them off his hands.

If the entire point of a DVR was purely to record programs and organize them as you wish, then they would never have bothered to program them to allow you to view 1 thing while watching another. DVRs are so much more, and have been advertised as such (even DLB has been advertised). In fact, for a couple years the biggest ad promoting D and their DVRs was one based purely on live tv and the ability to time shift. They barely mentioned the recording and saving aspects.

BUT... in the end... we all know we must bow to BJ... because as he predicted in the old thread.... If we started a new thread with all the current people, the poll would obviously show that DLB is not the big thing that we all thought it was.. 
ANd he is right. IT used to be 70ish% that wanted DLB, now its only 63%... and we all know 63 is the new 10... and lets face it, 10% is just not worth thinking about. SO lets get back to TRU dvr features, like computer interaction.....


----------



## ToddinVA

christo76 said:


> BUT... in the end... we all know we must bow to BJ... because as he predicted in the old thread.... If we started a new thread with all the current people, the poll would obviously show that DLB is not the big thing that we all thought it was..
> ANd he is right. IT used to be 70ish% that wanted DLB, now its only 63%... and we all know 63 is the new 10... and lets face it, 10% is just not worth thinking about. SO lets get back to TRU dvr features, like computer interaction.....


You forgot to add the 4% that won't even move to the HR20 until DLB is implemented on it. Plus there's the 8.7% who prefer it but can live with SLB if they have to. That's at least 75% who very much want it. Only 8% don't care about it....


----------



## shubmsp

btmoore said:


> Let me call BS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO that is one of the dumbest, obstinate, fan boy arguments I have seen around here and I have seen it here a lot. Here is how I see it and I think a lot of others see it this way too, DLB was included for many many years in the DVR services that D* provided me/us, when they came out with their new DVRs they removed the feature. I don't care what you call the box or what software is on the box, it was a feature I had with my DVR service and now I don't. So they removed an important core feature regardless of the device. I don't think most of us care if it is TiVo, replay, mythtv, DVR Plus or whatever. There were basic key functions that we used on a regular basis, and baring some legal issue that cant be resolved there should be a continuity of those key features. Hey if they want to add new features they can knock their socks off with em, I just want the basic feature I had when the first time Dual Tuners were supported.


I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems logical to me that TIVO had/has the rights to certain feature, and because of their "friendly" divorce they reserved the rights to their features, and decided NOT to allow direct TV to utilize them in their boxes. Might simply be that direct TV did not/could not pay the price for these features. JMHO


----------



## Rich

30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.

Rich


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> 30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.
> 
> Rich


You are aware that this is the second DLB thread aren't you? The first one was much longer than this one.


----------



## Que

rich584 said:


> 30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.
> 
> Rich


If there was a lack of interest why even click on this thread at all? 30,364 Clicks...because they want to know what BJ has to say.

[edit] and it's 1027 that would use DLB out of 1120.

[edit #2] I can see why a few would stay that are not interest but most would just vote and run.


----------



## Tom Robertson

rich584 said:


> 30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.
> 
> Rich


there be an error in thine math. Everytime I review this thread, I increase the thread views, yet I can only vote once. Many of us have visited this thread many times.

You need a unique visitor counter not a total view counter. Then we can analyze that data.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Que

Tom Robertson said:


> there be an error in thine math. Everytime I review this thread, I increase the thread views, yet I can only vote once. Many of us have visited this thread many times.
> 
> You need a unique visitor counter not a total view counter. Then we can analyze that data.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think it was another TRAP reply....damn traps!


----------



## louiss3000

rich584 said:


> 30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.
> 
> Rich


Why do you not want DLBs? Would it harm you in some way you're not sharing? Why can't other people want it? My car has A/C, but I still want windows that go up and down, you?:nono2:


----------



## jheda

Wow where do i begin with this? Youve been beaten up enough subsequently, but lets just say this..according to your logic, over 30,000 people have viewed this thread, and only 400 dont want DLB....so only 1% of people DONT want DLB!!!!!



rich584 said:


> 30,272 people have viewed this thread. 700 want DLBs. A little over 1100 people have even bothered to take the poll. Lot of interest in DLBs, huh? And, yes, I realize that that thirty thousand figure counts multiple hits, but still... And only a little over 1200 posts. Statistically, it would seem to show a lack of interest in DLBs.
> 
> Rich


----------



## raott

louiss3000 said:


> Why do you not want DLBs? Would it harm you in some way you're not sharing? Why can't other people want it? My car has A/C, but I still want windows that go up and down, you?:nono2:


It is strange.

I can understand not caring whether a feature is there or not, heck, there are a whole bunch of features currently on the HR20 which I absolutely couldn't care less about, -- but I do not understand actively arguing against a feature set that person doesn't use.

I would think most customers (unless they have some other agenda), would want their DVR to have as many features as possible so that the feature is there if they choose to use it.


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> Wow where do i begin with this? Youve been beaten up enough subsequently, but lets just say this..according to your logic, over 30,000 people have viewed this thread, and only 400 dont want DLB....so only 1% of people DONT want DLB!!!!!


No one wants DLB, they just want to talk about it. The whiners whine, the teasers tease, the mods mod, the D* lurkers ignore it, and it's one happy family.

This is a fun thread. It's the DBS carnival.










BJ


----------



## boltjames

louiss3000 said:


> Why do you not want DLBs? Would it harm you in some way you're not sharing? Why can't other people want it? My car has A/C, but I still want windows that go up and down, you?:nono2:


First off, welcome to DBS. The HR20 is a fantastic machine and you've come to the right place for some great information from fellow users.

To answer your question, I don't think anyone is "against" DLB. I think people believe that the significant gains in the HR20 over the HR10 outweigh the sole loss by leaps and bounds.

The improvements outnumber the disadvantages by a score of about 25:1. Yes, DLB was eliminated, but we gained things like Native Mode, Speedy Menus, Accurate HD Markers in the Guide, MPEG4 Quality, a Stop button, a Back button, a 90 Minute Single Buffer, Rock Solid performance, No Audio Drop Outs, Caller ID, and of course 80+ new HD channels.

To some of us, those 'wins' are so good that it makes DLB a really low priority and we're happy to trade the new innovations for that old accidental feature. If it came back, fine, I wouldn't complain. But I wouldn't want D* to stop the addition of, say, 10 brand new features for the sake of spinning their engineering wheels on the reintroduction of DLB.

And the thing that needs to be said is that DLB is not a core function of a DVR. It's anti-DVR, in fact. Instead of making recording and time shifting easier and keeping your focus on that which you've recorded, it enables the bad behavior of constant jumping between two live programs. DLB is a 'jump' button on steriods. It's not a DVR enhancer. And 'jump' is still there. Still can hop between two live programs. Some will shout that the HR20 has lost its toaster when, in fact, it hasn't even lost its Pop Tart. It's lost the sprinkles on the icing on the Pop Tart. Very insignificant in the big picture. Hence the reason it's not there.

BJ


----------



## Lord Vader

shubmsp said:


> I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems logical to me that TIVO had/has the rights to certain feature, and because of their "friendly" divorce they reserved the rights to their features, and decided NOT to allow direct TV to utilize them in their boxes. Might simply be that direct TV did not/could not pay the price for these features. JMHO


That's not the reason, either. It has nothing to do with TIVO's licensing fees, rights to their stuff, etc.


----------



## Drew2k

Is there a problem with the display of the poll results? 

It seems some people can't see the results, which clearly show people DO want DLB ... not "no one".


----------



## Doug Brott

shubmsp said:


> I have no idea if this is true or not, but it seems logical to me that TIVO had/has the rights to certain feature, and because of their "friendly" divorce they reserved the rights to their features, and decided NOT to allow direct TV to utilize them in their boxes. Might simply be that direct TV did not/could not pay the price for these features. JMHO


DIRECTV has rights to TiVo's Patents through agreements with TiVo directly (2010) and the recent acquisition of ReplayTV. Besides, TiVo doesn't even have a Patent on DLB.


----------



## louiss3000

boltjames said:


> First off, welcome to DBS. The HR20 is a fantastic machine and you've come to the right place for some great information from fellow users.
> 
> To answer your question, I don't think anyone is "against" DLB. I think people believe that the significant gains in the HR20 over the HR10 outweigh the sole loss by leaps and bounds.
> 
> The improvements outnumber the disadvantages by a score of about 25:1. Yes, DLB was eliminated, but we gained things like Native Mode, Speedy Menus, Accurate HD Markers in the Guide, MPEG4 Quality, a Stop button, a Back button, a 90 Minute Single Buffer, Rock Solid performance, No Audio Drop Outs, Caller ID, and of course 80+ new HD channels.
> 
> To some of us, those 'wins' are so good that it makes DLB a really low priority and we're happy to trade the new innovations for that old accidental feature. If it came back, fine, I wouldn't complain. But I wouldn't want D* to stop the addition of, say, 10 brand new features for the sake of spinning their engineering wheels on the reintroduction of DLB.
> 
> And the thing that needs to be said is that DLB is not a core function of a DVR. It's anti-DVR, in fact. Instead of making recording and time shifting easier and keeping your focus on that which you've recorded, it enables the bad behavior of constant jumping between two live programs. DLB is a 'jump' button on steriods. It's not a DVR enhancer. And 'jump' is still there. Still can hop between two live programs. Some will shout that the HR20 has lost its toaster when, in fact, it hasn't even lost its Pop Tart. It's lost the sprinkles on the icing on the Pop Tart. Very insignificant in the big picture. Hence the reason it's not there.
> 
> BJ


I'm a bit confused, "bad behavior". Personally, I do not like my HR21, which I received when I upgraded from my HR10, or my HR20 that I received when that HR10 subsequently expired. I find the interface clunky and less than intuitive. For example, why cannot I simply switch tuners? Why do I have to go through the guide to know hat is recording on the other tuner, the one that I cannot simply switch to? Remember when we pushed the info button and were shpwn both tuners? Stop button? Live TV, we had that one.

Many people here simply love their HR2x boxes, I do not. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I entitled to mine. IMHO the HR2x series could be improved with some of the features TiVo! users took for granted. The HR2x has some interesting features, granted, but it could use more.

I suppose we'll agree to disagree........


----------



## skimmilk

boltjames said:


> To answer your question, I don't think anyone is "against" DLB. I think people believe that the significant gains in the HR20 over the HR10 outweigh the sole loss by leaps and bounds.
> 
> The improvements outnumber the disadvantages by a score of about 25:1. Yes, DLB was eliminated, but we gained things like Native Mode, Speedy Menus, Accurate HD Markers in the Guide, MPEG4 Quality, a Stop button, a Back button, a 90 Minute Single Buffer, Rock Solid performance, No Audio Drop Outs, Caller ID, and of course 80+ new HD channels.


First, if D* had kept licensing new TiVo technology, the two biggest ones (MP4 and 80+ channels), would also be available as they are in the latest models. Plus they also have VOD/networked media/etc, speedy menus and rock solid performance... and as an owner of a HR21-700, the rock solid performance is a joke. My TIVO never recorded stuff late, nor had audio/video dropouts, randomly rebooted or missed a recording.



boltjames said:


> To some of us, those 'wins' are so good that it makes DLB a really low priority and we're happy to trade the new innovations for that old accidental feature. If it came back, fine, I wouldn't complain. But I wouldn't want D* to stop the addition of, say, 10 brand new features for the sake of spinning their engineering wheels on the reintroduction of DLB.


Again, remember that D* stopped paying TiVO for all the new functionality that the average TiVO owner has enjoyed over the past five years. If D* were to re-license the latest TiVO, most of these "new features" would be baked into the box.



boltjames said:


> And the thing that needs to be said is that DLB is not a core function of a DVR. It's anti-DVR, in fact. Instead of making recording and time shifting easier and keeping your focus on that which you've recorded, it enables the bad behavior of constant jumping between two live programs. DLB is a 'jump' button on steriods. It's not a DVR enhancer. And 'jump' is still there. Still can hop between two live programs. Some will shout that the HR20 has lost its toaster when, in fact, it hasn't even lost its Pop Tart. It's lost the sprinkles on the icing on the Pop Tart. Very insignificant in the big picture. Hence the reason it's not there.


You are mistaking duration of recordings with the value of a DVR which is to adjust the time. Just because I watch something 15 minutes delayed does not mean that I am not using DVR functionality, especially when one considers the majority of ads for DVRs use the example of stopping TV only momentarily to answer the phone, take care of the kids, etc. And fact of the matter is that in many aspects, watching live TV is unavoidable such as watching multiple sports streams (such as the 4 in NCAAs), or like my home, where we do not follow any 1 show in particular, but instead seek to glean the best programming available at a given time. A good episode of say Law and Order does not mean I want to watch every episode of a show (which I personally think has hit the dumps over the past 5 years). Part of the reason to have hundreds of channels is to find good TV at random, unpredictable times, whether it be a great documentary on the History channel or a cooking show relevant to tomorrow nights dinner. And I personally value the option of finding something better even if I am enjoying a show and not going through hoops to do so.


----------



## turey22

Who really thinks that they will add this feature to the hr2* this year?


----------



## turey22

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV has rights to TiVo's Patents through agreements with TiVo directly (2010) and the recent acquisition of ReplayTV. Besides, TiVo doesn't even have a Patent on DLB.


who has the patent to DLB?


----------



## raott

turey22 said:


> who has the patent to DLB?


There is no patent to DLB. Dish DVRs have DLBs, Comcast and Insight DVRs have DLBs, Tivo DVRs have DLBs and I believe FIOS now has DLBs.


----------



## ToddinVA

Another reason for DLB...when I turn the TV on, if there are 2 buffers going, I'm twice as likely to find something already recording that I want to watch and possibly go back in time on!


----------



## turey22

ToddinVA said:


> Another reason for DLB...when I turn the TV on, if there are 2 buffers going, I'm twice as likely to find something already recording that I want to watch and possibly go back in time on!


that is right, if no patent what could possible be the problem with giving us that feature?


----------



## MX727

turey22 said:


> Who really thinks that they will add this feature to the hr2* this year?


I don't. I'm just praying that the HR3* series has it, and it is introduced before my HR10-250s die. 

Que - You've mention the ViP 622 from Dish, do you know if the ViP 722 has DLB?


----------



## James Long

MX727 said:


> Que - You've mention the ViP 622 from Dish, do you know if the ViP 722 has DLB?


Same software on the 622 and 722 ... they both have DLB.


----------



## btmoore

James Long said:


> Same software on the 622 and 722 ... they both have DLB.


Anyone know of a retailer that typical has the 622 and 722 on display with a good HD setup. I would like to try them out some time to see if it is worth changing providers.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Our Radio Shack here in Santa Cruz has a Dish DVR on display - I can't attest which one it is though as I've never looked that closely.

I had Dish Network many years ago and switched to DirecTV because at that point in time, I felt like the DN DVR's were "clunky", and I REALLY liked the Tivo interface.

I've since gotten rid of Tivo completely in my house and have only DVR+ receivers, and I would guess that a switch to DN wouldn't be that traumatic now, given that a) Tivo isn't a MUST HAVE anymore and b) I'm going to assume that DN has made strides in it's software and the "clunkiness" that I once experienced is probably not there anymore.

At this moment in time, my only problem with a switch in providers would be content! Just about the ONLY time I would use DLB if available would be when the Sharks are playing. And FSN Bay Area, at last check, is only in HD on DirecTV, not Dish Network... and for me, content is king... I can live without a few features if it means getting the programming I need.


----------



## btmoore

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Our Radio Shack here in Santa Cruz has a Dish DVR on display - I can't attest which one it is though as I've never looked that closely.
> 
> I had Dish Network many years ago and switched to DirecTV because at that point in time, I felt like the DN DVR's were "clunky", and I REALLY liked the Tivo interface.
> 
> I've since gotten rid of Tivo completely in my house and have only DVR+ receivers, and I would guess that a switch to DN wouldn't be that traumatic now, given that a) Tivo isn't a MUST HAVE anymore and b) I'm going to assume that DN has made strides in it's software and the "clunkiness" that I once experienced is probably not there anymore.
> 
> At this moment in time, my only problem with a switch in providers would be content! Just about the ONLY time I would use DLB if available would be when the Sharks are playing. And FSN Bay Area, at last check, is only in HD on DirecTV, not Dish Network... and for me, content is king... I can live without a few features if it means getting the programming I need.


Well the Rat Shack is not going to have a quality HD setup regardless of if it is the HD DVR or not . I agree, content and the quality of that content is king. That is what has kept me off of Comcast, they are short on a few of my HD content needs, and now with this latest HDLite issue they are having, I think they are out of the running for now. I have the same concerns with ATT as I don't think they can technically delivery me 2 high quality HD feeds using a 100 year old cable plant. We don't have FIOS in my area, which is so sad, which leaves dish and D*, both of which are HDlite providers and the HR20 is sort of lame. It just sucks, we have more content now days but the quality just goes down hill.


----------



## inkahauts

skimmilk said:


> First, if D* had kept licensing new TiVo technology, the two biggest ones (MP4 and 80+ channels), would also be available as they are in the latest models. Plus they also have VOD/networked media/etc, speedy menus and rock solid performance... and as an owner of a HR21-700, the rock solid performance is a joke. My TIVO never recorded stuff late, nor had audio/video dropouts, randomly rebooted or missed a recording.


Have you seen all the trouble Tivo is having getting their software to work on all the Cable boxes out there. Its 3 1/2 years and counting, and it is still looking really bad. Don't think they'd be working with MP4 boxes today just because you like Tivo. They would probably have just as many issues as the HR2, if not more. When Tivo first came out, it had plenty of issues and took a couple years to get them worked out, and since a box that would work on MP4 would be an entirely new platform for them, there is no reason to believe they could have done it any better.



skimmilk said:


> Again, remember that D* stopped paying TiVO for all the new functionality that the average TiVO owner has enjoyed over the past five years. If D* were to re-license the latest TiVO, most of these "new features" would be baked into the box.


No that is not necessarily true. Directv has always limited what features they have allowed on Tivo boxes, in part I believe because they want to keep their broadcasters happy. Tivo could easily have all those functions enabled right now that your talking about if Directv would let them, but they won't. And by the way, they are still paying Tivo, and they could add stuff now, and guess what, they are going to add some features this year.... They re-licensed their software last year.



skimmilk said:


> You are mistaking duration of recordings with the value of a DVR which is to adjust the time. Just because I watch something 15 minutes delayed does not mean that I am not using DVR functionality, especially when one considers the majority of ads for DVRs use the example of stopping TV only momentarily to answer the phone, take care of the kids, etc. And fact of the matter is that in many aspects, watching live TV is unavoidable such as watching multiple sports streams (such as the 4 in NCAAs), or like my home, where we do not follow any 1 show in particular, but instead seek to glean the best programming available at a given time. A good episode of say Law and Order does not mean I want to watch every episode of a show (which I personally think has hit the dumps over the past 5 years). Part of the reason to have hundreds of channels is to find good TV at random, unpredictable times, whether it be a great documentary on the History channel or a cooking show relevant to tomorrow nights dinner. And I personally value the option of finding something better even if I am enjoying a show and not going through hoops to do so.


I have to say I completely agree with you. It would be nice to have those options...



turey22 said:


> Who really thinks that they will add this feature to the hr2* this year?


I suspect we will see it after MRV and within 18 months...



turey22 said:


> who has the patent to DLB?


There is absolutely no patents on DLB.



turey22 said:


> that is right, if no patent what could possible be the problem with giving us that feature?


I think they are trying to get other functionality working first, and then will add DLB. I think because of the way the system and software has been developed, they have figured it would be wiser to get MRV going before adding DLB because of how those two features will interact with each other.

I want DLB, but more for everyone else than myself. I don't need it would never use it, but I also believe that they should get as many options on these units as possible so that everyone will be happy, and man it sure would be nice to see the tone of this thread change when we get DLB.

Curious, how many people here that call the HR2 inferior to tivo will call tivo inferior when we get DLB?


----------



## dennisj00

I'll be the first to call Tivo inferior when we get DLB on the HR2x -- just because of DLB AND HD Content! Once we have MRV and DLB and HD Content -- it's a done deal!


----------



## mightythor88

they are losing money by not having dlb on the hr-2x's. The only reason I am not getting the MLB EI and the superfan is the lack of DLB. Even if only 1000 people feel like me that is what $200k, if it is 5000 people then it is a cool million. Get on the ball directv!!


----------



## Oblong Desoto

For me, the decision to upgrade my DBS service to HD has become a race. Whichever of the following things happens first will determine whether I stick with DirecTV or switch to Dish Network:

DirecTV adds DLB to their HD DVR's... or
Dish catches up with DirecTV on HD channels
I like the ViP722, but I also want Bravo/FX/SciFi/USA in HD. (PBS would be nice, too)

Until then, I'll continue watching HD via OTA or SD on my Series 2 TiVos and avoid the 24 month commitment.

-OD


----------



## inkahauts

mightythor88 said:


> they are losing money by not having dlb on the hr-2x's. The only reason I am not getting the MLB EI and the superfan is the lack of DLB. Even if only 1000 people feel like me that is what $200k, if it is 5000 people then it is a cool million. Get on the ball directv!!


Directv's P&L statements tend to disagree with you....


----------



## inkahauts

Oblong Desoto said:


> For me, the decision to upgrade my DBS service to HD has become a race. Whichever of the following things happens first will determine whether I stick with DirecTV or switch to Dish Network:
> 
> DirecTV adds DLB to their HD DVR's... or
> Dish catches up with DirecTV on HD channels
> I like the ViP722, but I also want Bravo/FX/SciFi/USA in HD. (PBS would be nice, too)
> 
> Until then, I'll continue watching HD via OTA or SD on my Series 2 TiVos and avoid the 24 month commitment.
> 
> -OD


If you wait long enough, you'll never have HD...... In my book content is king, and knowing everything that is planned in the way of sat launches and what not, there is no way dish will ever beat Directv's HD offerings unless you count voom and when your specific local will be broadcast in HD.... I'm not saying they can't be the same, but they will never be ahead for the foreseeable future of the next 5 years....


----------



## mightythor88

inkahauts said:


> Directv's P&L statements tend to disagree with you....


I have to disagree...they are already paying the expenses & costs of providing MLB EI/SF access etc to everyone. So they are losing the pure revenue of my subscription and the people like me.

I believe they have around 16m subscribers - if say 5,000 people feel as I do that is under 1/2 of 1% of their total subscribers (a miniscule number) but at $200 a pop it is still a million dollars a year of revenue they are not capturing while still paying out for all the MLB. So the expense is already there, but they are missing out on some of the revenue that is available to them.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

mightythor88 said:


> they are losing money by not having dlb on the hr-2x's. The only reason I am not getting the *MLB EI and the superfan is the lack of DLB*. Even if only 1000 people feel like me that is what $200k, if it is 5000 people then it is a cool million. Get on the ball directv!!


I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I'm using the workaround right now to switch between 2 games and its working fine for me.


----------



## inkahauts

mightythor88 said:


> I have to disagree...they are already paying the expenses & costs of providing MLB EI/SF access etc to everyone. So they are losing the pure revenue of my subscription and the people like me.
> 
> I believe they have around 16m subscribers - if say 5,000 people feel as I do that is under 1/2 of 1% of their total subscribers (a miniscule number) but at $200 a pop it is still a million dollars a year of revenue they are not capturing while still paying out for all the MLB. So the expense is already there, but they are missing out on some of the revenue that is available to them.


Directv is selling more advance services than ever before... So I would not say they are loosing money. Now if you want to say that they are not yet fulling realizing their potential revenue, I can get on board with that. But don't say they are loosing money, because I have seen nothing to indicate they have LOST subscribers over the last 2 years... and then to be able to narrow down the cause of why they have lost some customers to not having DLB... I just don't see it....


----------



## boltjames

theratpatrol said:


> I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I'm using the workaround right now to switch between 2 games and its working fine for me.


And that's that. DLB is alive and well. People happy. Question answered. Thread closed.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> And that's that. DLB is alive and well. People happy. Question answered. Thread closed.
> 
> BJ


Wrong.


----------



## mightythor88

theratpatrol said:


> I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I'm using the workaround right now to switch between 2 games and its working fine for me.


I am sincerely glad it works for you, but for me it is just not acceptable. Case in point.

The block in time for a baseball game on the EI is 6hrs, so if i want to record a game that starts at 4pm and then switch back and forth with the work around I cannot have 2 programs record at 8pm without cancelling one of them and them re-adding it after the game is over. it is a conflict.

A simple click of the wheel like on tivo is what i need. I dont want to have to rearrange my recordings each night just to watch 2 baseball games.


----------



## Lord Vader

Do a manual record for less than 6 hours. Problem solved. Thread closed.


----------



## Kheldar

boltjames said:


> And that's that. DLB is alive and well. People happy. Question answered. Thread closed.


Sounds like we have 2 Al Gores in this thread.
The debate is over, eh? :grin:


----------



## mightythor88

inkahauts said:


> Directv is selling more advance services than ever before... So I would not say they are loosing money. Now if you want to say that they are not yet fulling realizing their potential revenue, I can get on board with that. But don't say they are loosing money, because I have seen nothing to indicate they have LOST subscribers over the last 2 years... and then to be able to narrow down the cause of why they have lost some customers to not having DLB... I just don't see it....


I agree with you in that maybe a better statement is to say they are not realizing all the revenue they can by not having a true DLB solution. This is specific to a sports sub. I am not cancelling directv over dlb so they are not losing a subscriber, I am merely stating that if they had true DLB I would subscribe to the MLB EI/SF package paying Directv an additional $200 a year.

This is also making me seriously consider whether the NFLST will be worth it to me this season. So that is another $350 that they may not get.


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> To answer your question, I don't think anyone is "against" DLB. I think people believe that the significant gains in the HR20 over the HR10 outweigh the sole loss by leaps and bounds.
> 
> The improvements outnumber the disadvantages by a score of about 25:1. Yes, DLB was eliminated, but we gained things like Native Mode, Speedy Menus, Accurate HD Markers in the Guide, MPEG4 Quality, a Stop button, a Back button, a 90 Minute Single Buffer, Rock Solid performance, No Audio Drop Outs, Caller ID, and of course 80+ new HD channels.
> 
> BJ


Why are you comparing the HR10 to the HR20? The HR10 was released many years ago while the HR20 is only a few years old. Try comparing the HR20 to the current TiVo unit for a more valid comparison. Some of the features you espouse as "new" on the HR20 are probably on the new TiVo also. A four year newer TiVo processor will do wonders for "Speedy Menus" and other UI based features. Of course, channel changes are twice as slow now using Native Mode so there's not much advancement there over the HR10.

You should try and read the other threads on the forum. Rock solid performance and no audio drops are false descriptions of these units. They have had many issues from day one to now in regards to "stability" since every software update includes "Stability Improvements". If they were perfect, then no improvements would be required.

As far as the 80+ new HD channels, do you actually watch all 80 of them? My guess is no; you probably have 15 or so favorites that other carriers also provide. Therefore no competitive advantage is gained in that case.

If TiVo made a mp4 capable HD satellite box with DLB, it would make the HR20 obsolete.


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator note> Please do not declare, intimate, request, or suggest this thread is or should be closed in public forums. That is purely a moderator decision based on private considerations, not public.

If you want to say "Argument closed" or "Debate is over", those are fine. 

Thanks,
Tom Robertson


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dr. Booda said:


> Why are you comparing the HR10 to the HR20? The HR10 was released many years ago while the HR20 is only a few years old. Try comparing the HR20 to the current TiVo unit for a more valid comparison. Some of the features you espouse as "new" on the HR20 are probably on the new TiVo also. A four year old newer TiVo processor will do wonders for "Speedy Menus" and other UI based features. Of course, channel changes are twice as slow now using Native Mode so there's not much advancement there over the HR10.
> 
> You should try and read the other threads on the forum. Rock solid performance and no audio drops are false descriptions of these units. They have had many issues from day one to this day in regards to "stability" since every software update includes "Stability Improvements". If they were perfect, then no improvements would be required.
> 
> As far as the 80+ new HD channels, do you actually watch all 80 of them? My guess is no; you probably have 15 or so favorites that other carriers also provide. Therefore no competitive advantage is gained in that case.
> 
> If TiVo made a mp4 capable HD satellite box with DLB, it would make the HR20 obsolete.


I don't watch 80, I'll say that right up front. But I do watch every HD channel that I used to watch in SD that now is in HD. And want more. 

And since I have premier, I'd watch all the premium channels from time to time in HD. 

(I know you are making a valid point, sorry for getting in the way of that.)

If Tivo made all the changes and made all the features available that DIRECTV requested and _is_ putting in the HR20, I don't know that Tivo would still obsolete the HR2x family. But since that never happened when TiVo had the biggest chance, when they were the DVR software supplier to DIRECTV, I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mightythor88

rich584 said:


> We get it: A number of 20/21 users adamantly want DLBs. I'd like to be Derek Jeter. You don't always get what you want.
> Rich


The thing is to use your argument - we had DLB before as do most other dvr's available from a variety of vendors. So we were Jeter, in effect.

So if you were Jeter/DLB, and you got hurt, you would work your tail off to be jeter again. I am asking Directv to get back what they already had.

What makes Jeter great is the drive to be the best he can and directv will not be the best it can until it gives us back DLB.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't watch 80, I'll say that right up front. But I do watch every HD channel that I used to watch in SD that now is in HD. And want more.
> 
> And since I have premier, I'd watch all the premium channels from time to time in HD.
> 
> (I know you are making a valid point, sorry for getting in the way of that.)
> 
> If Tivo made all the changes and made all the features available that DIRECTV requested and _is_ putting in the HR20, I don't know that Tivo would still obsolete the HR2x family. But since that never happened when TiVo had the biggest chance, when they were the DVR software supplier to DIRECTV, I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree that TiVo made a poor decision business wise, but if they didn't bail out, would they have done worse than the HR20 crew in regards to development? I may be giving TiVo too much credit, but did their old units have such distinctive audio drops and crashes as the current HR21? My HR10 didn't, but I may have been an exception.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree that TiVo made a poor decision business wise, but if they didn't bail out, would they have done worse than the HR20 crew in regards to development? I may be giving TiVo too much credit, but did their old units have such distinctive audio drops and crashes as the current HR21? My HR10 didn't, but I may have been an exception.


In my mind that is a complex (and very interesting) question. Some of the audio drops I think are as much to do with the transition to HD for some of the providers, some are due to the issues of transcoding MPEG2 to MPEG4, and some seem to be HR20 related.

So would the TiVo guys had the same problems dealing with MPEG4? I really don't know.

I have heard there were some bad versions of the TiVo code, but I can't say I personally experienced that either.

I do like the direction the HR2x is heading. I like some of the new features that finally are appearing on the TiVos, tho I have to wonder what took so long. 

Mostly, I want all the features and I want them now. I know, I'm impatient somedays. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree that TiVo made a poor decision business wise, but if they didn't bail out, would they have done worse than the HR20 crew in regards to development? I may be giving TiVo too much credit, but did their old units have such distinctive audio drops and crashes as the current HR21? My HR10 didn't, but I may have been an exception.


Tivo had plenty of problems the first 3 years they were on the market. So few people owned them then though that it didn't really register... In my opinion, anything running MPEG-4 is an entirely new platform, and when you have to do 2 platforms, its even more complicated. Yes, I believe we would have just as many if not more issues with a tivo box as people are having with the HR2... And I have an easy place to point as a current example of Tivo having a major problem with creating software that is usable for a machine... just look at how long its taking them to get units that will work in the cable companies boxes.. they are way behind, and its been at least 3 1/2 years since they started creating the software for them....


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *95 8.19% *
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 179 15.43%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. *97 8.36%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *743 64.05%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 46 3.97%*
Voters: *1160 *

Replies 1,176
Views 31,675

*Old DLB stats*

A must have! 2836 77.66%
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Come on DirecTV don't you want your name on the list of DVRs with DLB! Why be the only *ONE* without it.

TIVO line
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622, 722
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## ToddinVA

Que said:


> Come on DirecTV don't you want your name on the list of DVRs with DLB! Why be the only *ONE* without it.


Exactly!


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> You are aware that this is the second DLB thread aren't you? The first one was much longer than this one.


Yes, I'm aware of the other thread. My post was centered on this thread. Had hoped the other thread would have put this issue to rest, but...

Rich


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> there be an error in thine math. Everytime I review this thread, I increase the thread views, yet I can only vote once. Many of us have visited this thread many times.
> 
> You need a unique visitor counter not a total view counter. Then we can analyze that data.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I understood the statistical anomalies inherent in my post. I was gonna extrapolate using those anomalies, but had no basis to do so. I knew the argument was flawed when I made it, but, it is still an awful lot of hits and not that many votes. Were I able to treat the thread as data base, and be privy to all the data, I could have come up with something more concrete.

By the way, Tom, do you understand what using "thine" means?

Rich


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> Wow where do i begin with this? Youve been beaten up enough subsequently, but lets just say this..according to your logic, over 30,000 people have viewed this thread, and only 400 dont want DLB....so only 1% of people DONT want DLB!!!!!


Point I was trying to make was that perhaps not that many people care. As with all vague statistics, you can make of it what you will.

Rich


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> It is strange.
> 
> I can understand not caring whether a feature is there or not, heck, there are a whole bunch of features currently on the HR20 which I absolutely couldn't care less about, -- but I do not understand actively arguing against a feature set that person doesn't use.
> 
> I would think most customers (unless they have some other agenda), would want their DVR to have as many features as possible so that the feature is there if they choose to use it.


I haven't argued against DLBs. I haven't argued for DLBs. Never used them. Never intend to.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> No one wants DLB, they just want to talk about it. The whiners whine, the teasers tease, the mods mod, the D* lurkers ignore it, and it's one happy family.
> 
> This is a fun thread. It's the DBS carnival.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJ


Strange that so few of us understand that.

Rich


----------



## Kheldar

Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.":grin: 

Unknown: "The 50-50-90 Rule: any time you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability that you will get it wrong."


----------



## Oblong Desoto

inkahauts said:


> If you wait long enough, you'll never have HD...... In my book content is king, and knowing everything that is planned in the way of sat launches and what not, there is no way dish will ever beat Directv's HD offerings unless you count voom and when your specific local will be broadcast in HD.... I'm not saying they can't be the same, but they will never be ahead for the foreseeable future of the next 5 years....


You are probably right about Dish. But for me, it is not a matter of quantity. There are only a handful of channels that I truly care about, and they should be on the short list for HD expansion at Dish. I couldn't care less about Voom, premium movie stations, sports packages, VOD, etcetera. That being said, I see no reason to upgrade from my perfectly functioning Tivo's with DLB until I can watch the shows I like in HD while retaining that feature.

Hell, now that some of the good cable series like Psych, Monk, and Dexter are being rerun on broadcast networks, maybe I should consider OTA/Standalone HD TiVo/Netflix as a viable alternative.


----------



## Tom Robertson

rich584 said:


> I understood the statistical anomalies inherent in my post. I was gonna extrapolate using those anomalies, but had no basis to do so. I knew the argument was flawed when I made it, but, it is still an awful lot of hits and not that many votes. Were I able to treat the thread as data base, and be privy to all the data, I could have come up with something more concrete.
> 
> By the way, Tom, do you understand what using "thine" means?
> 
> Rich


As you've seen, jheda made the perfect response to your statistical anomalies 

I was unaware of any side meanings to "thine" until you brought it up. Neither of the two lesser known connotative uses were meant to be applied. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Rich

theratpatrol said:


> I hate to add fuel to the fire, but I'm using the workaround right now to switch between 2 games and its working fine for me.


But, you are a rational, logical person and as such are in the vast minority on this thread.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> Do a manual record for less than 6 hours. Problem solved. Thread closed.


Good one, your Lordship! Been awhile.

Rich


----------



## Rich

mightythor88 said:


> The thing is to use your argument - we had DLB before as do most other dvr's available from a variety of vendors. So we were Jeter, in effect.
> 
> So if you were Jeter/DLB, and you got hurt, you would work your tail off to be jeter again. I am asking Directv to get back what they already had.
> 
> What makes Jeter great is the drive to be the best he can and directv will not be the best it can until it gives us back DLB.


Please be sure to capitalize Derek Jeter's name. He is due that much respect.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> I agree that TiVo made a poor decision business wise, but if they didn't bail out, would they have done worse than the HR20 crew in regards to development? I may be giving TiVo too much credit, but did their old units have such distinctive audio drops and crashes as the current HR21? My HR10 didn't, but I may have been an exception.


I never owned an HR10, but the SD TiVos that I do own are still randomly rebooting as are the standalone TiVos. Hardly a high point of quality. That rebooting has been going on for over six months. Of course, TiVo is "working diligently" to correct this erratic behavior.

Rich


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> Yes, I'm aware of the other thread. My post was centered on this thread. Had hoped the other thread would have put this issue to rest, but...
> 
> Rich


You were aware there was another thread (that was closed right before this one was opened) yet were trying to make an argument that DLB is not important based on the numbers of this thread.

Uh, ok. Its your story.


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> I was unaware of any side meanings to "thine" until you brought it up. Neither of the two lesser known connotative uses were meant to be applied.


Aw, the one I was referring to was the "term of endearment". As in "I do thee wed". Just wondered. And I am NOT implying anything, before somebody reads something into this that was not meant.

Rich


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> I haven't argued against DLBs. I haven't argued for DLBs. Never used them. Never intend to.
> 
> Rich


Then why in the world are you spending so much time in a thread regarding a feature that you have no interest in.

Strange - but thanks for making my point for me.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

rich584 said:


> But, you are a rational, logical person and as such are in the vast minority on this thread.
> 
> Rich


Is it not logical to prefer a feature be implemented correctly than to have to use a "workaround" every time?

If your computer didn't have a mouse, there are perfectly usable workarounds such as using the tab, alt, and arrow keys. However, having a mouse sure does make make operating the machine easier more enjoyable for the majority of us.

Likewise, people got along fine with just a keyboard years ago. But the mouse (like DLB) is a genie you can't put back in the bottle. It is therefore perfectly rational to expect these features in our modern computers and DVRs.

I find it illogical that DirecTV would leave such a useful and prevalent feature out of their top-of-the-line DVR software.

-OD


----------



## Tom Robertson

rich584 said:


> Aw, the one I was referring to was the "term of endearment". As in "I do thee wed". Just wondered. And I am NOT implying anything, before somebody reads something into this that was not meant.
> 
> Rich


And to be also very clear, I was not using it as a form of superiority to you or anyone else here. (I didn't know either form existed.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jahgreen

mightythor88 said:


> they are losing money by not having dlb on the hr-2x's. The only reason I am not getting the MLB EI and the superfan is the lack of DLB. Even if only 1000 people feel like me that is what $200k, if it is 5000 people then it is a cool million. Get on the ball directv!!


:gets out calculator:

DTV 2007 revenue of $17,000,000,000, divided into $1,000,000, means lost revenue as a percentage of total revenue is 0.00588%. Call it six-thousandths of a percent.

Conclusion: Shareholders not too concerned; DirecTV likely looking at investments with bigger impact on the bottom line.


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> And to be also very clear, I was not using it as a form of superiority to you or anyone else here. (I didn't know either form existed.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I never would have guessed a thousand posts ago, that this thread would turn into a discussion about 'thine'... :lol:


----------



## grizbear

How about a stable SINGLE buffer first?

This screen saver issue in 01fxe is still around, suddenly coming on sometimes when the TV is off, sometimes while it is on, and the buffer is gone.


----------



## dennisj00

grizbear said:


> How about a stable SINGLE buffer first?
> 
> This screen saver issue in 01fxe is still around, suddenly coming on sometimes when the TV is off, sometimes while it is on, and the buffer is gone.


BJ and I weren't aware the HR2x had ANY problems!


----------



## mightythor88

jahgreen said:


> :gets out calculator:
> 
> DTV 2007 revenue of $17,000,000,000, divided into $1,000,000, means lost revenue as a percentage of total revenue is 0.00588%. Call it six-thousandths of a percent.
> 
> Conclusion: Shareholders not too concerned; DirecTV likely looking at investments with bigger impact on the bottom line.


If I was a shareholder of DTV, I would want them to capture every $ out there. They are already paying to license MLB and NFL, so the failure to capture any and all subscribers is a loss of revenue they could have. Considering they had a 2007 net income of $1.5B and they had $3.5B in debt at the end of 2007, they need the money.


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> BJ and I weren't aware the HR2x had ANY problems!


The only "problem" the HR20 has are its detractors who weep openly over the loss of a feature* that very few users miss.

BJ
* DLB is not a DVR feature as it has nothing to do with RECORDING, only VIEWING live TV.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Is there a problem with the display of the poll results?
> 
> It seems some people can't see the results, which clearly show people DO want DLB ... not "no one".


If 10,000 US citizens desperately wanted to change our national language from English to French and a news reporter said "the French movement has no chance of success because no one wants to switch from English" you might say that he's grammatically incorrect but his point is completely accurate.

DLB is a rubber band ball. By its own existence it contradicts the purpose of the DVR. If you want to "jump" around live TV, you shouldn't own a DVR. DVR's record programs for leisurely viewing at a later time. They aren't designed to frenetically "jump" back and forth for live broadcasts. It's not a kangaroo. Nope.










BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

boltjames said:


> DLB is a rubber band ball. By its own existence it contradicts the purpose of the DVR. If you want to "jump" around live TV, you shouldn't own a DVR. DVR's record programs for leisurely viewing at a later time. They aren't designed to frenetically "jump" back and forth for live broadcasts. It's not a kangaroo. Nope.
> 
> BJ


You are so wrong... (in my opinion)


----------



## James Long




----------



## Kheldar

James Long said:


>


"Buffer" in two senses of the word: DLB, and a "stronger" product (more buff)?


----------



## Drew2k

In my opinion, Tom is so right.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> If 10,000 US citizens desperately wanted to change our national language from English to French and a news reporter said "the French movement has no chance of success because no one wants to switch from English" ...


 ... the reporter would be fired for sloppy journalism and inadequate fact checking.


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> You are so wrong... (in my opinion)


Let's explore this.

No product exists with one of its core values being to allow one to jump between multiple live broadcasts simultaneously. And if there is one, it would be a basic set top box with its happy "jump" button.

Here's what a "jump" button does:

1. Switches between two live broadcasts, causing disruption and distraction.

2. Allows one to see what is on-screen on two different programs should he not know what he wants to watch.

3. Allows one to hurriedly "get back" to where he was previously if he decides he doesn't like what he's navigated to.

4. Allows one to watch two programs simultaneously while degrading the viewing experience for both due to distraction.

Here's what a DVR does:

1. Records live television for leisurely and convenient viewing later.

2. Pauses live television for leisurely and convenient viewing after a short break.

3. Organizes recorded television for leisurely and convenient viewing on ones own schedule.

4. Creates a relaxing environment for TV viewing by removing the stress of clock watching and decision making.

Jumping is the opposite of Recording. Everything that's leisurely and convenient about a DVR is un-done by the frenetic and distracting "jumping". The reason the DVR exists is to allow you to NOT jump around, to allow you to NOT feel like you have to watch more than one program at the same time, to allow you to NOT feel rushed and distracted.

It's like taking a delicious frozen ice cream sundae and putting it into a pot of boiling water. In the end, it still winds up in your stomach but instead of refreshing and relaxed it's boiliing over and painful.

BJ


----------



## ToddinVA

Bolt, do you never watch live or nearly live TV such as sporting events or the news?? Those items are the primary things I use DLB for...

For recording of regularly scheduled shows, then regular DVR recording is fine.


----------



## boltjames

ToddinVA said:


> Bolt, do you never watch live or nearly live TV such as sporting events or the news?? Those items are the primary things I use DLB for...
> 
> For recording of regularly scheduled shows, then regular DVR recording is fine.


Yes, about once a month I'm in a situation where it would be nice to have DLB, but that's just because I'm too lazy to hit the "record" button as I should.

To me, the bottom line is that if the second program in the mythical buffer is SOOOOOOOOOOOO important to you as to want to watch it simultaneous to your primary program, then hitting the 'record' button isn't a big deal. Finish watching Program 1 and then go back and watch the recorded Program 2. Two football games in OT? Watch one, record the other, wait for the first to finish, go watch the second. If its the case of watching two football games from start to finish for three hours, that's "jumping" and has no need for the buffering. Your hopping and distracted to begin with, so no tears if you miss a few seconds of the action. Par for the course.

Any other purpose for the DVR in this fashion isn't "DLB". It's "jump". DLB makes it sound like it _belongs _on the DVR. It's "dual live buffer", they say. That's just savvy marketing. In truth, it has nothing to do with a DVR. It's just an accidental byproduct of another feature. It's "jump" or "safe jump" or "jumping isn't good enough I want to have the ability to pause and back up too". No matter how you slice it, it doesn't belong on a DVR. That's why we don't miss it. We just argue about it.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Let's explore this.
> 
> No product exists with one of its core values being to allow one to jump between multiple live broadcasts simultaneously. And if there is one, it would be a basic set top box with its happy "jump" button.
> 
> Here's what a "jump" button does:
> 
> 1. Switches between two live broadcasts, causing disruption and distraction.
> 
> 2. Allows one to see what is on-screen on two different programs should he not know what he wants to watch.
> 
> 3. Allows one to hurriedly "get back" to where he was previously if he decides he doesn't like what he's navigated to.
> 
> 4. Allows one to watch two programs simultaneously while degrading the viewing experience for both due to distraction.
> 
> Here's what a DVR does:
> 
> 1. Records live television for leisurely and convenient viewing later.
> 
> 2. Pauses live television for leisurely and convenient viewing after a short break.
> 
> 3. Organizes recorded television for leisurely and convenient viewing on ones own schedule.
> 
> 4. Creates a relaxing environment for TV viewing by removing the stress of clock watching and decision making.
> 
> Jumping is the opposite of Recording. Everything that's leisurely and convenient about a DVR is un-done by the frenetic and distracting "jumping". The reason the DVR exists is to allow you to NOT jump around, to allow you to NOT feel like you have to watch more than one program at the same time, to allow you to NOT feel rushed and distracted.
> 
> It's like taking a delicious frozen ice cream sundae and putting it into a pot of boiling water. In the end, it still winds up in your stomach but instead of refreshing and relaxed it's boiliing over and painful.
> 
> BJ


Wow, sling bull much? 

"Here's what a DVR does" ...jumping is SO not the opposite of recording. You do know that the buffer on the live tuner is ALSO a recording, right? And that if DLB were in place, jumping between buffers would retain the recordings for each tuner, right? And that it's up to individual users to decided to jump between tuners, right? That no one will force users to switch between tuners? And you know you can take classes or hire a life coach to deal with your lack of willpower or self-control so you can lessen your need to feel compelled to switch between tuners, right? In other words, with DLB implemented, the DVR will still be recording, will still be performing its primary function, and will meet the expanded needs of users who want to toggle between live buffers, and will meed the needs of users who don't want to toggle between live buffers.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> "Here's what a DVR does" ...jumping is SO not the opposite of recording. You do know that the buffer on the live tuner is ALSO a recording, right? And that if DLB were in place, jumping between buffers would retain the recordings for each tuner, right? And that it's up to individual users to decided to jump between tuners, right? That no one will force users to switch between tuners? And you know you can take classes or hire a life coach to deal with your lack of willpower or self-control so you can lessen your need to feel compelled to switch between tuners, right? In other words, with DLB implemented, the DVR will still be recording, will still be performing its primary function, and will meet the expanded needs of users who want to toggle between live buffers, and will meed the needs of users who don't want to toggle between live buffers.


One of the points of this thread is to answer the question of why DLB isn't on the HR20.

My contention is that the answer is that it doesn't belong on a DVR because it's not a core function of a DVR. Instead, it's an accidental _byproduct of_ a core function.

You can tell me until your blue in the face about the merits of DLB to those that miss it and I can't disagree. But you cannot tell me that a DVR must have DLB to do its job, and that's the definition of "core function". Yes, a wristwatch can also be used to fry ants. But if Rolex designs a non-reflective bezel that refracts the sunlight in such a way to make ant-frying impossible, one does not blame Rolex for eliminating the AFB because a few people use the timepiece for a function it was never intended to perform.

And D* agrees wtih me. If it were a core function it would be on there. It's not. So it isn't.

BJ


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> ...it would be nice to have DLB...
> BJ


You said it, not me.


----------



## ATARI

BJ,

Just curious -- which voting option did you choose?


----------



## dennisj00

So Bolt admits that he would like DLB! But in previous posts has admitted a personal weakness in handling it. BJ, I'll be your sponsor in that 12 step program. PM me anytime. (Can you be a sponsor in a program that you haven't had the problem?!)

I only use DLB when I want to. At least I use to. Now the 'workaround' creates more problems than it's worth -- unless you like the boot screens. (I am on CEs).

And the workaround of recording both programs fails when one program ends or a game goes long. It's a wonderful thing to miss the last 12 minutes of a tight game because the buffer flushed or you hit the wrong key!

The HR2x has a Jump button -- "Previous"-- it just flushes the current buffer! Implemented somewhat poorly, eh?

And being the only DVR without DLB, I'd say that's poor implementation, right? And the lack of a core function of all other DVRs!

Yes, the average Joe doesn't know what DLB is. But even my Mother-in-Law uses it on her cable box. And if you explain the terminology, she agrees how useful it is.

It would be interesting to have a poll on the DVR itself. Hey, that would be a great use of the *WORTHLESS* Active channel!!

If people wait long enough for it to come up, it could be worded something like "You can currently watch, pause, rewind or fast forward one live program. Would you like the capability to jump to another channel without losing the first?"

Wouldn't those results be interesting?


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Here's what a "jump" button does:
> 
> 1. Switches between two live broadcasts, causing disruption and distraction.
> 
> 2. Allows one to see what is on-screen on two different programs should he not know what he wants to watch.
> 
> 3. Allows one to hurriedly "get back" to where he was previously if he decides he doesn't like what he's navigated to.
> 
> 4. Allows one to watch two programs simultaneously while degrading the viewing experience for both due to distraction.


Why is it distracting to view two buffers simultaneously? If my brain has the capability to absorb the content, why not do so? I have never felt stressed, distracted, or hurried when using DLB.



boltjames said:


> Here's what a DVR does:
> 
> 1. Records live television for leisurely and convenient viewing later.
> 
> 2. Pauses live television for leisurely and convenient viewing after a short break.
> 
> 3. Organizes recorded television for leisurely and convenient viewing on ones own schedule.
> 
> 4. Creates a relaxing environment for TV viewing by removing the stress of clock watching and decision making.


So "leisurely and convenient viewing" and a "relaxing environment" are created by "removing the stress of clock watching and decision making"? Wow, life stinks. I never have to be aware of where I am and what I am doing and decide my next course of action.

I just want to be taken away like those old Calgon commercials with the woman in the bubble bath tub. Curse you DLB, you are ruining my life&#8230;:grin:


----------



## ToddinVA

boltjames said:


> My contention is that the answer is that it doesn't belong on a DVR because it's not a core function of a DVR. Instead, it's an accidental _byproduct of_ a core function.


It is NOT an "accidental byproduct of a core function". DLB has been around for nearly 8 years. It was in the DirecTiVo manual. The good folks at TiVo thought about it and added it as a cool new function to kick off dual-tuner functionality. If it wasn't thought to be a core function, then why would almost all other dual tuner DVR's have it???? Remember, even if it was _accidental_, there are all kinds of examples in history of an accidental discovery that turned out to be very popular or useful or even saved countless lives...


----------



## Flyrx7

I honestly don't know why people entertain the trolls in this thread the way they do. If you've read this entire thread you'll see a clear pattern; the troll's pick a clearly antagonistic POV, just to rile up the audience and to generate attention to themselves.

I've long since put these trolls in my ignore list, but that doesn't really matter anyhow, as everyone seems to like quoting them, regardless of the fact that they are just baiting people for their own amusement and ego fluffing.

I do agree, however, that without them, this thread wouldn't be nearly as active. So I can only surmise, as others have, that they are indeed pro DLB, but choose to be the Devils advocate for the sole purpose of fanning the flames to keep this debate active. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense at all to argue against a function that has no ill effect on any other function or negatively impact the user. The function is absolutely transparent to an un-savvy user, and I believe all the resources are there to implement this rather easily.

What's really frustrating is the lack of reasoning from D*. This leads to all kinds of speculation and creates a breeding ground for negativity towards them. If they would just come out and say that they are developing something that involves DLB or is affected somehow by DLB, hell, they don't even have to give details, it would at least let the public know that they are listening to this debate and take us seriously. As it is now, they just let the rumor mill generators pass on the ghost of speculation; "I know why, my source on the inside has told me, but I can't tell you lowly peons". Kind of ridiculous, really.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## ATARI

Flyrx7 said:


> What's really frustrating is the lack of reasoning from D*. This leads to all kinds of speculation and creates a breeding ground for negativity towards them. If they would just come out and say that they are developing something that involves DLB or is affected somehow by DLB, hell, they don't even have to give details, it would at least let the public know that they are listening to this debate and take us seriously. As it is now, they just let the rumor mill generators pass on the ghost of speculation; "I know why, my source on the inside has told me, but I can't tell you lowly peons". Kind of ridiculous, really.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


:welcome_s

Welcome to the boards, Frank.

Always glad to hear from another pro-DLBer.


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> BJ,
> 
> Just curious -- which voting option did you choose?


I did not vote in the first thread or this second thread. My vote is still for sale by PayPal'ing me $50. D* could care less about the poll, so therefore my "vote" is immaterial.

BJ


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> I did not vote in the first thread or this second thread.
> 
> BJ


<unbelievable>


----------



## mikewolf13

boltjames said:


> If 10,000 US citizens desperately wanted to change our national language from English to French and a news reporter said "the French movement has no chance of success because no one wants to switch from English" you might say that he's grammatically incorrect but his point is completely accurate.
> 
> DLB is a rubber band ball. By its own existence it contradicts the purpose of the DVR. If you want to "jump" around live TV, you shouldn't own a DVR. DVR's record programs for leisurely viewing at a later time. They aren't designed to frenetically "jump" back and forth for live broadcasts. It's not a kangaroo. Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BJ


So by your logic, being able to pause LIVE TV is not a core feature of a DVR? 
Heck, watching Live TV is not a core function of a DVR right?

You shouldn't be watching LIVE TV at all right?

In fact I vote for no buffer.. and no live tv at all...everything must be recorded..duh.....the R is for Record.....seems so simple now.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> One of the points of this thread is to answer the question of why DLB isn't on the HR20.
> 
> My contention is that the answer is that it doesn't belong on a DVR because it's not a core function of a DVR. Instead, it's an accidental _byproduct of_ a core function.
> 
> You can tell me until your blue in the face about the merits of DLB to those that miss it and I can't disagree. But you cannot tell me that a DVR must have DLB to do its job, and that's the definition of "core function". Yes, a wristwatch can also be used to fry ants. But if Rolex designs a non-reflective bezel that refracts the sunlight in such a way to make ant-frying impossible, one does not blame Rolex for eliminating the AFB because a few people use the timepiece for a function it was never intended to perform.
> 
> And D* agrees wtih me. If it were a core function it would be on there. It's not. So it isn't.
> 
> BJ


I only wish you would not cloud your own arguments with superfluous and unrelated matters, such as the continued similes (cars, wristwatches, etc.) I had no clue that your previous post was about core functionality of a DVR, I thought you were comparing the JUMP button to DLB and discussing how nervous you are when you have choices. So sorry for misunderstanding. 

Others have already commented on the rest of your post, so I shall not go into it, but I do think you should probably rephrase that last sentence. There's no proof DIRECTV has made any decisions on what constitutes core functionality of a DVR, and lack of a feature does not support the idea that a feature is not core functionality. We went for monnths without the ability to edit a Series Link when there were no upcoming programs, and eventually that was added. What's more "core" than that?


----------



## Dr. Booda

mikewolf13 said:


> So by your logic, being able to pause LIVE TV is not a core feature of a DVR?
> Heck, watching Live TV is not a core function of a DVR right?
> 
> You shouldn't be watching LIVE TV at all right?
> 
> In fact I vote for no buffer.. and no live tv at all...everything must be recorded..duh.....the R is for Record.....seems so simple now.


Unfortunately, you are correct. Live TV viewing is dismissed as an archaic concept that has no place in a DVR from DirecTV. I guess they and others would expect us to watch only a few of the 12-15 MLB games offered daily for instance. If I happen to miss any of the at bats or pitched innings of my fantasy guys too bad. I should have bought 8 DVR's and recorded everything. Oh wait, how do I set the recording end times? You mean baseball games aren't run with a timed clock? Why can't MLB make each game 3 hours long so that it can be recorded easily? Can they also only have the games start at 4, 7, and 10 PM EDT so that nothing overlaps? Heck, let's just make everything On Demand including sports events to make it really simple. Then I wouldn't need Live TV anymore or such a stupid feature like DLB.


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> There's no proof DIRECTV has made any decisions on what constitutes core functionality of a DVR, and lack of a feature does not support the idea that a feature is not core functionality. We went for monnths without the ability to edit a Series Link when there were no upcoming programs, and eventually that was added. What's more "core" than that?


furthermore, people who are in the know have repeatedly told us that the reason DLB has not been implemented is not because DirecTV does not consider it a core function, but because they seem to have decided that there are more important features they want to implement FIRST...

all we are trying to do is influence how things are ranked on their priority list...

Time shifting is a core function of a DVR...doing it "close to live" with a DLB or with recordings are two ways of doing the same thing...we want to have both options, especially since one is much easier to execute from a user standpoint.


----------



## F1 Fan

Implementing DLB would mean a loss of the 90 minute buffer which would currently force me to change my viewing/recording/workaround habits.

I never had a DVR before the HR20 so am not used to the old way but I do make use of the 90 minute buffer a lot. Cutting them to 30 minutes is too little for me.
Splitting it to 45 minutes each would still be too little in a lot of cases but an hour each would be ok.

I guess I could make more of remote booking or plan my viewing more or use a new workaround if DLB was implemented.

I can see Sports fans with a Season Pass would want DLB but for me the current work around is adequate and I really would not like to tradetthe buffer.

To me a Picture in Picture of 2 channels would be better for the times I want to switch between 2 channels - and give me a couple of size options (side by side, one big one small etc). Or give me a way to turn DLB on and off (can be on by default) using a keyword search (such as 30skip and slip) so I can get the 90 minute buffer.

I still say that as we have a current workaround I would prefer Directv to implement MRV as a higher priority.


----------



## cdc101

F1 Fan said:


> Implementing DLB would mean a loss of the 90 minute buffer which would currently force me to change my viewing/recording/workaround habits.


I could do with two 45 minute buffers..._maybe _they could stretch it to 1 hr. Either way, I'm pretty sure that even though I would miss the 90 minute buffer, I'd be even more happy with DLB.

Whoop!


----------



## anubys

F1 Fan said:


> Implementing DLB would mean a loss of the 90 minute buffer which would currently force me to change my viewing/recording/workaround habits.


there is absolutely no verification that the above claim is true...

I'm not beating you up...just pointing out that I would not list it as fact...


----------



## Rich

Kheldar said:


> Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.":grin:


How many computers did Mark Twain, who expired in 1910, get to use in order to base that statement on? How many data bases did he use? If you've read his works extensively you know he had a quip for just about anything.



> Unknown: "The 50-50-90 Rule: any time you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there is a 90% probability that you will get it wrong."


That makes no sense.


----------



## Rich

Tom Robertson said:


> And to be also very clear, I was not using it as a form of superiority to you or anyone else here. (I didn't know either form existed.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Several languages, German, for instance, have a "more personal" form of pronoun usage.

Rich


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> Then why in the world are you spending so much time in a thread regarding a feature that you have no interest in.
> 
> Strange - but thanks for making my point for me.


You're right. I will remove the DLB thread from my notifications. Not because of your post, but because it's becoming boring.

Rich


----------



## Rich

jheda said:


> Wow where do i begin with this? Youve been beaten up enough subsequently, but lets just say this..according to your logic, over 30,000 people have viewed this thread, and only 400 dont want DLB....so only 1% of people DONT want DLB!!!!!


Twist it, spin it, have a good time. I wrote it to stir the pot a bit, and it would seem that I was successful. I shall now depart.

Rich


----------



## Rich

ATARI said:


> I never would have guessed a thousand posts ago, that this thread would turn into a discussion about 'thine'... :lol:


But, did you learn something?

Rich


----------



## raott

F1 Fan said:


> Implementing DLB would mean a loss of the 90 minute buffer which would currently force me to change my viewing/recording/workaround habits.


Why do you assume that? You can easily have two 90 minute buffers and DLBs. No one has ever said it is an either/or proposition.

The moto boxes (which have much smaller hard drives) have DLBs and 45 minute buffers. There is no reason the HR2x series, with much larger hard drives couldn't have two 90 minute buffers.


----------



## Que

Flyrx7 said:


> I honestly don't know why people entertain the trolls in this thread the way they do. If you've read this entire thread you'll see a clear pattern; the troll's pick a clearly antagonistic POV, just to rile up the audience and to generate attention to themselves.
> 
> I've long since put these trolls in my ignore list, but that doesn't really matter anyhow, as everyone seems to like quoting them, regardless of the fact that they are just baiting people for their own amusement and ego fluffing.
> 
> I do agree, however, that without them, this thread wouldn't be nearly as active. So I can only surmise, as others have, that they are indeed pro DLB, but choose to be the Devils advocate for the sole purpose of fanning the flames to keep this debate active. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense at all to argue against a function that has no ill effect on any other function or negatively impact the user. The function is absolutely transparent to an un-savvy user, and I believe all the resources are there to implement this rather easily.
> 
> What's really frustrating is the lack of reasoning from D*. This leads to all kinds of speculation and creates a breeding ground for negativity towards them. If they would just come out and say that they are developing something that involves DLB or is affected somehow by DLB, hell, they don't even have to give details, it would at least let the public know that they are listening to this debate and take us seriously. As it is now, they just let the rumor mill generators pass on the ghost of speculation; "I know why, my source on the inside has told me, but I can't tell you lowly peons". Kind of ridiculous, really.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


WOW! Nice 1st post. :welcome_s to the forum! What took you so long to post? 
....good 1st...

You would think that people would see there traps and not respond at all but, then you wouldn't see 30+ new post a day. So it's all good as long as people are still talking about it.

The best way to help out on DLB is sent out a snail mail letter. Just click this link: DLB Letters

You can also use my Avatar to show your support.


----------



## Que

dennisj00 said:


> So Bolt admits that he would like DLB! But in previous posts has admitted a personal weakness in handling it. BJ, I'll be your sponsor in that 12 step program. PM me anytime. (Can you be a sponsor in a program that you haven't had the problem?!)
> 
> I only use DLB when I want to. At least I use to. Now the 'workaround' creates more problems than it's worth -- unless you like the boot screens. (I am on CEs).
> 
> And the workaround of recording both programs fails when one program ends or a game goes long. It's a wonderful thing to miss the last 12 minutes of a tight game because the buffer flushed or you hit the wrong key!
> 
> The HR2x has a Jump button -- "Previous"-- it just flushes the current buffer! Implemented somewhat poorly, eh?
> 
> And being the only DVR without DLB, I'd say that's poor implementation, right? And the lack of a core function of all other DVRs!
> 
> Yes, the average Joe doesn't know what DLB is. But even my Mother-in-Law uses it on her cable box. And if you explain the terminology, she agrees how useful it is.
> 
> It would be interesting to have a poll on the DVR itself. Hey, that would be a great use of the *WORTHLESS* Active channel!!
> 
> If people wait long enough for it to come up, it could be worded something like "You can currently watch, pause, rewind or fast forward one live program. Would you like the capability to jump to another channel without losing the first?"
> 
> Wouldn't those results be interesting?


Me and the wife use DLB every day. I like to have one turner on CNN and surf of the other one.

The people that don't know what DLB has use it. They just call it "change to the other turner" or "Swap". If they have a DVR they use it.

...but there still working on the HR2x to fix all the bugs. It's still not really working right. Maybe time to FIRE the team and get a new one???

When they do get the bugs work out, DLB will be on there. It will have to be.


----------



## Que

anubys said:


> there is absolutely no verification that the above claim is true...
> 
> I'm not beating you up...just pointing out that I would not list it as fact...


This question keeps getting asked along with Tivo patent. If they only read this thread.  
Although it's a little long...


----------



## Que

Dr. Booda said:


> Unfortunately, you are correct. Live TV viewing is dismissed as an archaic concept that has no place in a DVR from DirecTV. I guess they and others would expect us to watch only a few of the 12-15 MLB games offered daily for instance. If I happen to miss any of the at bats or pitched innings of my fantasy guys too bad. I should have bought 8 DVR's and recorded everything. Oh wait, how do I set the recording end times? You mean baseball games aren't run with a timed clock? Why can't MLB make each game 3 hours long so that it can be recorded easily? Can they also only have the games start at 4, 7, and 10 PM EDT so that nothing overlaps? Heck, let's just make everything On Demand including sports events to make it really simple. Then I wouldn't need Live TV anymore or such a stupid feature like DLB.


Hey don't give them that idea about On Demand... DirecTV might just do it!


----------



## Que

grizbear said:


> How about a stable SINGLE buffer first?
> 
> This screen saver issue in 01fxe is still around, suddenly coming on sometimes when the TV is off, sometimes while it is on, and the buffer is gone.


It's sad to see all those bugs still there after 2 years...


----------



## Kheldar

rich584 said:


> How many computers did Mark Twain, who expired in 1910, get to use in order to base that statement on? How many data bases did he use? If you've read his works extensively you know he had a quip for just about anything.


Not that it's on topic, but do you not recognize sarcasm? Just like when Mark Twain originally said that, I was being sarcastic due to the dueling statistics in the previous posts. Hence the :grin: emoticon. And, FYI, people were doing statistics _long_ before computers.

And please excuse the inaccurate wording of my quote. Twain was quoting someone else. Twain's actual quote is:


> Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."


----------



## boltjames

anubys said:


> furthermore, people who are in the know have repeatedly told us that the reason DLB has not been implemented is not because DirecTV does not consider it a core function, but because they seem to have decided that there are more important features they want to implement FIRST...


Ha ha ha. Isn't that the very definition of "non core function"? The fact that it's already #86 on the list of a product that was released two years ago and, apparently, has even more items still ahead of it?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> You can also use my Avatar to show your support.


That's not your avatar; that's my humorous banner.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Ha ha ha. Isn't that the very definition of "non core function"? The fact that it's already #86 on the list of a product that was released two years ago and, apparently, has even more items still ahead of it?
> 
> BJ


You didn't respond on how DIRECTV so long to fix the issue where Series Links could not be edited when there were no upcoming programs - you know, core DVR functionality - and how that relates to DLB as I laid it out earlier.

Now I must ask why you think it is that DIRECTV delivered so many features BEFORE fixing the Series Link bug I just described? For example, Media Share, On Demand, Remote Booking, etc. All of those were out long before the SL bug was fixed, before they fixed the "core functionality" you value so mmuch, yet DIRECTV did deliver it. You see, DIRECTV has their own schedule for implementing features and bug fixes, and the fact that they didn't give us a fix to the SL bug was not an indication that it wasn't important, or that it wasn't a core DVR function - it was none of the things you seem to think when the feature is DLB. We'll get DLB ... when DIRECTV is ready, according to their schedule that we're not privy to. So tighten those Bolts James, because your arguments are just getting looser and looser all the time ...


----------



## boltjames

*Drew2k You didn't respond on how DIRECTV so long to fix the issue where Series Links could not be edited when there were no upcoming programs - you know, core DVR functionality - and how that relates to DLB as I laid it out earlier.*

That's a minor software design bug, not a "missing feature". Not sure why it took so long because it's never been a bother to me.

*Now I must ask why you think it is that DIRECTV delivered so many features BEFORE fixing the Series Link bug I just described? For example, Media Share, On Demand, Remote Booking, etc. All of those were out long before the SL bug was fixed, before they fixed the "core functionality" you value so mmuch, yet DIRECTV did deliver it. *

"Bugs", by definition, are glitches. Anomalies. Problems. Challenges. Perhaps the guy who wrote the code died and they needed to bring in a team to analyze his work, deconstruct it, reverse engineer it, test it, tweak it, test it again, then launch it.

*You see, DIRECTV has their own schedule for implementing features and bug fixes, and the fact that they didn't give us a fix to the SL bug was not an indication that it wasn't important, or that it wasn't a core DVR function - it was none of the things you seem to think when the feature is DLB. We'll get DLB ... when DIRECTV is ready, according to their schedule that we're not privy to. *

No, you won't. DLB is not even a "lesser" DVR function. It doesn't belong on a DVR. It's a throwback to old analog TV's with built-in cable tuners that had no guide and relied heavily on the "jump" button for navigation and orientation. Guide is the modern navigational answer to "jump" and Record is the antidote for the disease called "jumping".

*So tighten those Bolts James, because your arguments are just getting looser and looser all the time ...*

I'm not being argumentative nor am I being combative. The truth is on my side, isn't it? DLB was on the HR10 and scores of other D* products before their engineers wised up and killed it. Crushed it. Like a grape. The onus is not on me to prove why DLB isn't there nor is it on me to prove that it's not coming back. The facts, dear friend, speak for themselves. It's not a feature that belongs on a DVR. It's like putting a bridal and some reins on a new BMW 328i Convertible. It's not going to be pulled by a horse, so no point.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> "Bugs", by definition, are glitches. Anomalies. Problems. Challenges. Perhaps the guy who wrote the code died and they needed to bring in a team to analyze his work, deconstruct it, reverse engineer it, test it, tweak it, test it again, then launch it


So one guy died that wrote the code and then another team had to come in and analyze his work, deconstruct it, reverse engineer it, test it, tweak it, test it again, then launch it? That's absolutely ridiculous IMHO. No company would trust the code to one individual ever as the risk would be too extreme.

In the case of the HR2x, it's more likely that the entire software team comprised of many programmers is responsible for the screw-ups along with Management.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> I'm not being argumentative nor am I being combative. The truth is on my side, isn't it? DLB was on the HR10 and scores of other D* products before their engineers wised up and killed it. Crushed it. Like a grape. The onus is not on me to prove why DLB isn't there nor is it on me to prove that it's not coming back. The facts, dear friend, speak for themselves. It's not a feature that belongs on a DVR. It's like putting a bridal and some reins on a new BMW 328i Convertible. It's not going to be pulled by a horse, so no point.
> 
> BJ


Again with the similes? And exaggerations to boot: "scores of other D[IRECTV] products". Oh brother ... 

There is nothing to support yor claim that DLB does not belong on a DVR. Nothing. You're right, the onus is on you ... and so far, you're not doing a good job of proving DLB will never be in DIRECTV's plans again.

The only "facts" are these: Other companies make DVRs with DLB. DIRECTV's newest line of DVR currently doesn't have DLB. DIRECTV has introduced many new features that don't exist on other products. DIRECTV has their own schedule for introducing features and bug fixes. We don't know their schedule. We don't know that they will bring DLB back to the DVR+. We don't know that they won't bring DLB to the DVR+.

Those are facts. Stating it won't come back because "it doesn't belong" is just your own opinion. It's not fact.

In my opinion, DIRECTV will bring DLB back. They're "this close" with the "workaround", and I have confidence that when they introduce Feature X they can spend time working on DLB and will make lots of people happy. You won't be one of them, but so be it - you don't have to use DLB.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> In my opinion, DIRECTV will bring DLB back. They're "this close" with the "workaround", and I have confidence that when they introduce Feature X they can spend time working on DLB and will make lots of people happy. You won't be one of them, but so be it - you don't have to use DLB.


D* will not be working on implementing a feature they've already eliminated and de-prioritized simply because there are 10 unhappy people in a discussion forum. They are properly allocating their time on things that increase revenue and take the technology forward, they're not focusing on moving backward. No smart company would.

Use the Record function for the second tuner and be happy with the other innovations the HR20 is loaded with. Enough with the longing for Superjump® already. Your ex-girlfriend is gone and she's with another man now. She's not coming back.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

Forget that you're purposely downplaying the number of people that would be happy to have DLB back (simply look at the poll numbers), why does it seem that you are happy DLB will NOT be back? Does it make you happy that there are unhappy people? Would it make you unhappy if DLB was returned and other people were happy? Let's just get to it ... you don't want others to have DLB because you don't want it. Why should THAT stop DIRECTV from delivering DLB because one unhappy person in a discussion forum doesn't want it?


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Forget that you're purposely downplaying the number of people that would be happy to have DLB back (simply look at the poll numbers), why does it seem that you are happy DLB will NOT be back? Does it make you happy that there are unhappy people? Would it make you unhappy if DLB was returned and other people were happy? Let's just get to it ... you don't want others to have DLB because you don't want it. Why should THAT stop DIRECTV from delivering DLB because one unhappy person in a discussion forum doesn't want it?


The point isn't that I'm happy that DLB isn't there; it's that I'm happy that the HR20 is as great a machine as it is even without it.

If DLB came back tomorrow, it doesn't change a thing. The HR20 is still fantastic and the engineers at D* are to be commended for creating it. That's the joy that you don't get to feel. I wish that upon you. All you need do is forget that Superjump® ever existed and you will have the inner peace you seek.

BJ


----------



## PAJeep

Dr. Booda said:


> No company would trust the code to one individual ever as the risk would be too extreme.


Actually that kind of thing happens all the time.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> The point isn't that I'm happy that DLB isn't there; it's that I'm happy that the HR20 is as great a machine as it is even without it.


Well than why trash-talk those who want DLB, which would make the HR2X DVRs even better? There's always room for improvement and new features. DLB would certainly be a new feature to this DVR and would certainly make a lot of people happy.



> If DLB came back tomorrow, it doesn't change a thing. The HR20 is still fantastic ...


 Yes, I love the HR2X DVR and think it's great. I also think it can be better in lots of areas, DLB is just one of them. I'm glad you think adding DLB won't change a thing - thanks for no longer fighting against it's implementation on the HR2X DVR! 



> ... and the engineers at D* are to be commended for creating it. That's the joy that you don't get to feel. I wish that upon you.


You're totally baffled me on this one. I'm not sure if you're saying I'm insensitive to and unappreciative of the great work the DIRECTV team does on the DVRs, or if when DLB is introduced I'll just find something else to be unhappy about. You seem to spend all your time in the DLB thread, so you may not be aware of the C.E. Program, but I am an active participant and have been since March 2007. I was fortunate to be selected for three hardware field trials due to my activity here at the DBSTalk forum, and know first-hand the work that the engineers put into the product. I am among the first to thank them for their dedication and improvements they continue to make with each CE cycle, and I especially thank them for listening to us, from feedback here at the forum to how we vote on the Wish List Survey. I get to experience the joy of knowing DIRECTV listens to us each week when I download the latest CE test release on my DVRs. So again .. what do you mean?



> All you need do is forget that Superjump® ever existed ...


Not a problem, as I've never heard of it before you started using it a few posts back, and I have no idea what it means. I do however, look forward to the day DIRECTV delivers DLB to us.



> ... and you will have the inner peace you seek.


Who says I'm seeking it?  I already am quite content and need not seek it. However, without growth there is stagnation, so again, I look forward to DIRECTV delivering DLB to us.


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## jheda

Drewsky, when we have CE awards at the end of the year, you get the one for most patient answeing of trolls postings...you are the man!


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## Richierich

Amen Brother Drew!!! Well Stated!!!


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## Doug Brott

One thing for sure it that boltjames has done a magnificent job of keeping the dream alive. I'd be interested in hearing the spin if DLB were to magically appear one day.


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## hdtvfan0001

DLB would be a "nice-to-have" feature.

But I do not see it as a "requirement" nor a "need".

However I can see both sides of the coin on this one.


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## GrumpyBear

boltjames said:


> The point isn't that I'm happy that DLB isn't there; it's that I'm happy that the HR20 is as great a machine as it is even without it.
> 
> If DLB came back tomorrow, it doesn't change a thing. The HR20 is still fantastic and the engineers at D* are to be commended for creating it. That's the joy that you don't get to feel. I wish that upon you. All you need do is forget that Superjump® ever existed and you will have the inner peace you seek.
> 
> BJ


So the HR20 is the greatest thing out there?? Why has theHR20/21 Lost out in CES, and CNET awards for top product? As a matter of a Fact, in the lastest Reviews, the HR2x is the 3rd best product losing out to Dish DVR and now even to Tivo DVR's? Granted one of the BAD's for the HR2x is the lack of PIP( ie DLB) maybe with DLB the HR2x would become the highest rated, instead of being an also ran. Granted all you have to do is look at the HR2x wishlist and see that most of the top items are already Features in the competion. The HR2x is a good machine, has room for improvement, and just look at this poll, the 1st poll and the HR2x wishlist, and you will see you are in the extreme MINORITY of D* users when it comes to DLB. There is NOTHING wrong, with pointing out a missing feature. It doesn't mean people are going to throw away there HR2x's or jump ship over it, or bad mouthing a company. Listing faults is the best way to grow, hiding faults in the dark, is how mushrooms grow. Wake up, and instead of bashing, DLB, help D* grow with features vs dropping them. There are some cool features on the HR2x systems, but some of them can be handled by other equipment better.


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## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> One thing for sure it that boltjames has done a magnificent job of keeping the dream alive. I'd be interested in hearing the spin if DLB were to magically appear one day.


Keep me posted if it does, magically appear. I WILL BE moving on over, right now I am waiting for a good deal on the NFL Ticket to come out and use 2 HR2x, to do what I only need 1 622/722 to do. Luckily it wont cost me more to have to use 2 machines to replace 1.


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## Kheldar

deleted


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## dennisj00

GrumpyBear said:


> So the HR20 is the greatest thing out there?? Why has theHR20/21 Lost out in CES, and CNET awards for top product? As a matter of a Fact, in the lastest Reviews, the HR2x is the 3rd best product losing out to Dish DVR and now even to Tivo DVR's? Granted one of the BAD's for the HR2x is the lack of PIP( ie DLB) maybe with DLB the HR2x would become the highest rated, instead of being an also ran. Granted all you have to do is look at the HR2x wishlist and see that most of the top items are already Features in the competion. The HR2x is a good machine, has room for improvement, and just look at this poll, the 1st poll and the HR2x wishlist, and you will see you are in the extreme MINORITY of D* users when it comes to DLB. There is NOTHING wrong, with pointing out a missing feature. It doesn't mean people are going to throw away there HR2x's or jump ship over it, or bad mouthing a company. Listing faults is the best way to grow, hiding faults in the dark, is how mushrooms grow. Wake up, and instead of bashing, DLB, help D* grow with features vs dropping them. There are some cool features on the HR2x systems, but some of them can be handled by other equipment better.


Can't wait for the spin on this one!! Obviously, Mr. GB, you didn't drink the Kool-aid!

By the way, the PERFECT HR2x has warmed up a few users with the recent NR.


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## GerryC

GrumpyBear said:


> Granted one of the BAD's for the HR2x is the lack of PIP( ie DLB)


PIP and DLB are not the same thing.


----------



## GrumpyBear

GerryC said:


> PIP and DLB are not the same thing.


In the DBS world it would be EXTREMELY hard using 1 receiver to have PiP without DLB, you can't have one without the other.


----------



## James Long

Actually, you can ... it just isn't desired.


----------



## boltjames

*GrumpyBear So the HR20 is the greatest thing out there?? Why has theHR20/21 Lost out in CES, and CNET awards for top product? As a matter of a Fact, in the lastest Reviews, the HR2x is the 3rd best product losing out to Dish DVR and now even to Tivo DVR's? *

CES awards? CNET awards? Trade shows and uber-blog's care about one thing- money. Whomever is paying the most to build a booth and/or buy ads in the local trades wins these "awards". D* is apparently as smart with their money as they are with eliminating unwanted and unneccessary features.

*Granted one of the BAD's for the HR2x is the lack of PIP( ie DLB) maybe with DLB the HR2x would become the highest rated, instead of being an also ran. Granted all you have to do is look at the HR2x wishlist and see that most of the top items are already Features in the competion.*

"Granted" you generalize because you are biased towards Superjump®. "Granted" content is king, not functionality, and the quality of D*'s HD is unparallelled. "Granted" you take the HR20 for granted because you wish for a non-feature that doesn't belong on a DVR.

*The HR2x is a good machine, has room for improvement, and just look at this poll, the 1st poll and the HR2x wishlist, and you will see you are in the extreme MINORITY of D* users when it comes to DLB. *

The HR20 is God's gift to DVR's. It has very little room for improvement, save for some nice-to-haves like a more dense guide with smaller fonts and maybe voice recognition capability. But we're down on Request #325 on the list and these aren't critical.

And I'm only in the MINORITY on DBS. In the REAL WORLD, there are MILLIONS of satisfied D* customers and they don't come to discussion forums to WHINE about things that they don't need. The poll! The poll! That's the smoking gun? The poll! News FLASH: D* doesn't care about the poll! If they did, DLB would be back from the dead!

*There is NOTHING wrong, with pointing out a missing feature. *

Conceptually, you're right. But the reality is that it hangs a needless black cloud over Happy Land. You do realize how much HD DirecTV has given us in the last few months, right? You do realize how good the HR20 is, right? How much more stable it is than the HR10, right? Show some love.

*Listing faults is the best way to grow, hiding faults in the dark, is how mushrooms grow. Wake up, and instead of bashing, DLB, help D* grow with features vs dropping them. There are some cool features on the HR2x systems, but some of them can be handled by other equipment better.*

_(Humming "We Are The World" lightly in the background) _The Death Of DLB is not a "fault" of the HR20. It doesn't belong there. And D* has, without asking, given us a DVR with scores of superior functions to the HR10. A DVR is about relaxed Recording, it eliminates the need for frenetic Jumping. The misread of a dead non-feature by a few confused users isn't the problem of D* or its fans.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

And what's wrong with "black clouds"? 

Should students not get grades lower than an "A" because it diminishes their self-esteem? Would a D be a "black cloud"?

How do we measure success and progress without pointing out foibles and missteps? Just live with blinders on?

This is a forum for exchange of ideas and information - it's not a paean to DIRECTV where only praise and worship are tolerated.

Just remember: "Without dark, there can be no light." You appreciate the light more when you start to make your way out of the darkness. You too can see the light ... take off the blinders.


----------



## 94SupraTT

boltjames said:


> Death Of DLB is not a "fault" of the HR20. It doesn't belong there. And D* has, without asking, given us a DVR with scores of superior functions to the HR10. A DVR is about relaxed Recording, it eliminates the need for frenetic Jumping. The misread of a dead non-feature by a few confused users isn't the problem of D* or its fans.
> 
> BJ


But it does belong on these platforms. 

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD 
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

Its so unimportant and such a NONfeature that all of those DVRs have this "nonfeature". We aren't asking the DVR to fix us breakfast, or change our oil. This is simple functionality that many other DVRs have. Your argument would have weight IF and only if DLBs were not impliment on many other DVRs.

You sound like a used car salesmen from the 80s trying to convince us that crank windows are better than power windows. Sure I could crank one window at a time on this Escort but why should I do that when this Corolla has power windows and I can control EACH window as I see fit from my arm rest?


----------



## DBSNewbie

94SupraTT said:


> ... You sound like a used car salesmen from the 80s trying to convince us that crank windows are better than power windows. Sure I could crank one window at a time on this Escort but why should I do that when this Corolla has power windows and I can control EACH window as I see fit from my arm rest?


Best car analogy so far


----------



## GrumpyBear

I am beginning to think BJ, is more of a FLAMEBOY, than arguing real facts.
His own Arguements make no real since, his purpose is just to Flame and have fun stirring the pot. Keep stirring up the Pot BJ, but don't try to convience people you are serious anymore. You are entertaining though, I will give you that.


----------



## GrumpyBear

94SupraTT said:


> But it does belong on these platforms.
> 
> S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
> AT&T Homezone DVR
> Dish Network - ViP622
> Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 
> Its so unimportant and such a NONfeature that all of those DVRs have this "nonfeature". We aren't asking the DVR to fix us breakfast, or change our oil. This is simple functionality that many other DVRs have. Your argument would have weight IF and only if DLBs were not impliment on many other DVRs.
> 
> You sound like a used car salesmen from the 80s trying to convince us that crank windows are better than power windows. Sure I could crank one window at a time on this Escort but why should I do that when this Corolla has power windows and I can control EACH window as I see fit from my arm rest?


We may have to start tracking all the different DVR systems out there that do this, as you can add the ViP722 and ViP612 to the list as well 
Granted some may not want to hear about more machines that offer greater funtionality, to go along with Content. Granted a lack of Funtionality can cause you not to enjoy Content. Content is ONLY king, if you can watch it properly, with the Correct Funtions.


----------



## boltjames

GrumpyBear said:


> I am beginning to think BJ, is more of a FLAMEBOY, than arguing real facts. His own Arguements make no real since, his purpose is just to Flame and have fun stirring the pot. Keep stirring up the Pot BJ, but don't try to convience people you are serious anymore. You are entertaining though, I will give you that.


You're about a year and 1,500 posts too late for that sage wisdom, but riddle me this:

Why does a feature that encourages stress, confusion, and defocused behavior belong on a device whose primary purpose is to create a relaxed, organized, and focused viewing experience?

The fact that you struggle to answer this is the precise reason DLB is not on the D* DVR.

BJ


----------



## Kheldar

BJ,

If DLB is never implemented on the HR2x:
* your usage of the DVR will not be affected
* others will be disappointed because of the lack of that feature

If DLB is implemented on the HR2x:
* your usage of the DVR will not be affected
* others will be happy with the inclusion of the feature

So, since your usage will not be affected in any way, why do you care? Why argue a point that doesn't affect your usage of the DVR in any way, shape or form anyway? It's as pointless as a red rubber ball.


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> You're about a year and 1,500 posts too late for that sage wisdom, but riddle me this:
> 
> Why does a feature that encourages stress, confusion, and defocused behavior belong on a device whose primary purpose is to create a relaxed, organized, and focused viewing experience?
> 
> The fact that you struggle to answer this is the precise reason DLB is not on the D* DVR.
> 
> BJ


Maybe it doesn't encourage stress, confusion, and defocused behavior for anyone except yourself. Maybe others are happy living such hectic existences. Maybe that's why the poll numbers are the way they are and why every other DVR on the market has DLB.


----------



## btmoore

Kheldar said:


> BJ,
> 
> If DLB is never implemented on the HR2x:
> * your usage of the DVR will not be affected
> * others will be disappointed because of the lack of that feature
> 
> If DLB is implemented on the HR2x:
> * your usage of the DVR will not be affected
> * others will be happy with the inclusion of the feature
> 
> So, since your usage will not be affected in any way, why do you care? Why argue a point that doesn't affect your usage of the DVR in any way, shape or form anyway? It's as pointless as a red rubber ball.


He has stated multiple times that he lacks the emotional maturity to handle DLB. The SLB allows him a single purpose, a commitment to the program he is watching, where DLB is too much choice and he is tempted to jump around and more than one thing at once, apparently this ability to choose is a real mental and emotional hardship for BJ.


----------



## GrumpyBear

boltjames said:


> You're about a year and 1,500 posts too late for that sage wisdom, but riddle me this:
> 
> Why does a feature that encourages stress, confusion, and defocused behavior belong on a device whose primary purpose is to create a relaxed, organized, and focused viewing experience?
> 
> The fact that you struggle to answer this is the precise reason DLB is not on the D* DVR.
> 
> BJ


Struggle?!?!?! who has to struggle?!?!!?

Nothing destress the house more, than being able to pause a show, so one family member can check something out LIVE on a different station, and then going back LIVE to the show the rest of the family is watching. Not to mention in the Fall, for those people that work outside and weather being a Key issue for those in the NW, being able to swap out check the weather updates, and NOT miss a thing on MNF, or Sunday Night Football, or even some movie the wife want to watch. Nobody gets snippy, and nobody has to miss anything and everybody is happy, stress free and relaxed. Heck you can even let the kids watch a 30min show, smile when its done, go back the other tuner, continue from where from the pause point, fastforward through commericals to catch up and not miss a thing. Once again, entire family is happy, no stressed, and very relaxed as we all share. Makes everybody happier, and now others don't have to wait and catch up on there shows, nor do I have wasted space on the DVR, waiting for somebody to watch it. We can go into detail more if you want, to later about the benefits during the College Football season, watch the game you really want, sneak over to see whats going on another game, without missing a thing, or better yet during those REALLY boring hafltime shows, go over to a different game, and incase you stay to long, you can rewind, the main game, and NOT MISS a thing. Nascar season works the same way as well, while doing chores, and in and out of the house. Your way, you watch one thing, record the rest, and record and record and record, and hope you catch up, not just you but the rest of the family. Your way causes Chaos, and stress in the household, and with Chaos and stress like that, NOBODY IS RELAXED.


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## boltjames

GrumpyBear said:


> Struggle?!?!?! who has to struggle?!?!!?
> 
> Nothing destress the house more, than being able to pause a show, so one family member can check something out LIVE on a different station, and then going back LIVE to the show the rest of the family is watching. Not to mention in the Fall, for those people that work outside and weather being a Key issue for those in the NW, being able to swap out check the weather updates, and NOT miss a thing on MNF, or Sunday Night Football, or even some movie the wife want to watch. Nobody gets snippy, and nobody has to miss anything and everybody is happy, stress free and relaxed. Heck you can even let the kids watch a 30min show, smile when its done, go back the other tuner, continue from where from the pause point, fastforward through commericals to catch up and not miss a thing. Once again, entire family is happy, no stressed, and very relaxed as we all share. Makes everybody happier, and now others don't have to wait and catch up on there shows, nor do I have wasted space on the DVR, waiting for somebody to watch it. We can go into detail more if you want, to later about the benefits during the College Football season, watch the game you really want, sneak over to see whats going on another game, without missing a thing, or better yet during those REALLY boring hafltime shows, go over to a different game, and incase you stay to long, you can rewind, the main game, and NOT MISS a thing. Nascar season works the same way as well, while doing chores, and in and out of the house. Your way, you watch one thing, record the rest, and record and record and record, and hope you catch up, not just you but the rest of the family. Your way causes Chaos, and stress in the household, and with Chaos and stress like that, NOBODY IS RELAXED.


See? See how stressed out you are?

Via its actions to put DLB to death, D* is saving your life.

BJ


----------



## GerryC

GrumpyBear said:


> In the DBS world it would be EXTREMELY hard using 1 receiver to have PiP without DLB, you can't have one without the other.


True, with only one receiver you can't have PIP without DLB. But, I certainly had/have DLB on my R10 and HR10-250 without having PIP.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> See? See how stressed out you are?
> 
> Via its actions to put DLB to death, D* is saving your life.
> 
> BJ


Given that stress that DLB apparently causes for some, I can't imagine how stressful it must be to pick a program from the Guide to record when there are all those channels ... and all those programs on each channel ...

Or how stressful it must be to change the order of Series Links in the Prioritizer when there is more than one Series Link. Make this SL higher than that one? Or Lower? Move to the top? Or the bottom? So stressful ...

Or how stressful it must be to pick a program to watch from the Playlsit when there is more than one recorded ...

Or how stressful it must be to use the remote, when there are all those buttons ...

If only we didn't have to face this problem . if only I had one channel to watch and one program was on all day. And only an on/off button. But wait - should it be on? Or off? What to do!?


----------



## raw121

boltjames said:


> The HR20 is God's gift to DVR's. It has very little room for improvement, save for some nice-to-haves like a more dense guide with smaller fonts and maybe voice recognition capability.


You know what this sounds like? It sounds like parent talking about their child, who of course could do no wrong. It has become clear now that BJ is original designer of the HR2X.  It is his baby and nothing can be any better.


----------



## Kheldar

raw121 said:


> You know what this sounds like? It sounds like parent talking about their child, who of course could do no wrong. It has become clear now that BJ is original designer of the HR2X.  It is his baby and nothing can be any better.


He has a bumper sticker: "My DVR is an Honor Student at DirecTV High School."


----------



## James Long

3.5 makes you an Honor Student ... with DLB the HR-20 might get a 4.0. 

There is a difference between being an honor student and being the top student. 
I suppose it's OK to settle being an honor student.


----------



## jahgreen




----------



## Drew2k

jahgreen said:


> *CAPTION: boltjames engaging in meaningful DLB debate with Drew2k and others*


I must be the one taking the photo.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Drew2k said:


> Given that stress that DLB apparently causes for some, I can't imagine how stressful it must be to pick a program from the Guide to record when there are all those channels ... and all those programs on each channel ...
> 
> Or how stressful it must be to change the order of Series Links in the Prioritizer when there is more than one Series Link. Make this SL higher than that one? Or Lower? Move to the top? Or the bottom? So stressful ...
> 
> Or how stressful it must be to pick a program to watch from the Playlsit when there is more than one recorded ...
> 
> Or how stressful it must be to use the remote, when there are all those buttons ...
> 
> If only we didn't have to face this problem . if only I had one channel to watch and one program was on all day. And only an on/off button. But wait - should it be on? Or off? What to do!?


:hurah: The only visual I get after reading this is smoke arising from someone's ears while they spin around like a top. Blue screen loading...


----------



## jheda

So, BJ if u havent voted to date, how would you vote?


----------



## James Long

*Moderator Note:
Please keep the sanity within the limits of the rules of DBSTalk.*

(In other words, this thread has been fun, but don't go crazy.)

The discussion needs to get back on the DLB topic and away from other stuff.


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> So, BJ if u havent voted to date, how would you vote?


My vote would be to do whatever is in the best interest of the HR20.

In my opinion, anything that enables stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior is counter to the DVR's goals of providing a relaxing, organized, and focused viewing experience.

If my vote, and my vote alone, is all it took for D* to add DLB to the HR20, I wouldn't do it. I like you guys and really understand how you miss the feature in the same way I missed some Tivo UI elements, but in order for the HR20 to move forward it must shed itself of the trappings of old school analog TV.

"DLB" is savvy marketing. It's not really what it is. "Dual Live Buffer" sounds all official, like it belongs on the DVR. In reality, it's "Superjump". It's the old 1978 Magnavox "jump" button on steriods. It has nothing to do with the DVR's purpose and thus is an unneccessary distraction to future development of the platform. Frantically jumping back and forth between two simultaneous programs is the polar opposite of the DVR's primary goal of making multiple programs available to watch in their entirety on one's own, relaxed schedule.










BJ


----------



## Kheldar

boltjames said:


> My vote would be to do whatever is in the best interest of the HR20.
> 
> In my opinion, anything that enables stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior is counter to the DVR's goals of providing a relaxing, organized, and focused viewing experience.


Are you saying that DLB would cause "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior" for the viewer? Or that the HR20 device itself would end up with "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior"?

If the concern is the DVR itself having "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior", then I see your point. If adding this feature lessens the HR2x's capability to do everything else it can do (thereby causing the HR2x some "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior"), then you would be right.

OTOH, if the hardware can support the DLB feature without breaking other pre-existing capabilities, then bring it on!


----------



## boltjames

Kheldar said:


> Are you saying that DLB would cause "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior" for the viewer? Or that the HR20 device itself would end up with "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior"?
> 
> If the concern is the DVR itself having "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior", then I see your point. If adding this feature lessens the HR2x's capability to do everything else it can do (thereby causing the HR2x some "stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior"), then you would be right.
> 
> OTOH, if the hardware can support the DLB feature without breaking other pre-existing capabilities, then bring it on!


I think we all want the HR20 to be the very best-in-class product it can be.

The very best-in-class products do one thing and do that one thing very well. Think of truly great products; they all are built this way. iTunes. Organizes and simplifies media. iPod. Plays back media to those on the go. Pencil. Writes and erases text or sketches. Staple. Holds multiple pages together.

A world-class DVR needs to provide the user with a listing of programs to choose from, record those programs accurately, and organize them for later viewing consistently. It relieves the viewer of the stress of decision making by allowing the recording of another program while one watches something else, and allows future programs to be automatically recorded without interaction. That's what it does. It's a Digital Video RECORDER. It's not a Cable Box. It's not A Noisy Channel Changer. It's a RECORDER. It records things. It's the VCR with a more stable recording medium and a computerized listing of program choices.

It was the TELEVISION TUNER that needed the "jump" button, because the television tuner had no ability to record a program while the other was being watched.

It was the VCR that tried to allow a relaxing experience but failed due to complexity and necessary human interaction.

The DVR is the VCR on steriods.

DLB is a television tuner's "jump" button on steriods.

DLB is old school television for those that can't let go, it has no place on a DVR, and that's the reason why it wasn't part of the HR20 feature set.

BJ


----------



## jheda

boltjames said:


> I think we all want the HR20 to be the very best-in-class product it can be.
> 
> The very best-in-class products _*do one thing *_and do that one thing very well. Think of truly great products; they all are built this way. iTunes. Organizes and simplifies media. * iPod. Plays back media to those on the go. * Pencil. Writes and erases text or sketches. Staple. Holds multiple pages together.
> 
> BJ


BJ you are so right. Luckily Apple wouldnt mix the ipod with something like a...........phone. What a failure that would be.............


----------



## boltjames

jheda said:


> BJ you are so right. Luckily Apple wouldnt mix the ipod with something like a...........phone. What a failure that would be.............


And that's precisely why the iPhone is not a good product. It sells on the premise of being the Jack of all trades, master of none. It's not trying to be the "best" of anything. It's a gigantic compromise.

Want an iPod with no drive space?

Want a Camera with no features?

Want an Internet appliance with turtle-slow surfing speeds?

Want an Office product that can't download?

Want a Blackberry replacement with a challenging keyboard?

Want a Telephone that won't work when you land because the Video player ate up the battery during the flight?

Thank you for making my point. In spades. I can see why you're a fan, as it's the HR10 circa 2004. An overpriced enthusiasts device, chock full of useless features, bugs, and self-indulgence for the look-at-me crowd. The iPhone will be very good and best-in-class some day- when Apple takes stuff out and focuses on what's important to Mr. & Mrs. Camry and stops catering to the tweak zealots who'll defend it to the death. Sound familiar?

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> It sells on the premise of being the Jack of all trades, master of none. It's not trying to be the "best" of anything. It's a gigantic compromise.


You just described the HR2x series. How observant, except we aren't buying it, we're leasing it. If it had DLB, then it would be more desirable for those of us who have sports subscriptions.


----------



## mightythor88

boltjames said:


> And that's precisely why the iPhone is not a good product. It sells on the premise of being the Jack of all trades, master of none. It's not trying to be the "best" of anything. It's a gigantic compromise.
> 
> Thank you for making my point. In spades. I can see why you're a fan, as it's the HR10 circa 2004. An overpriced enthusiasts device, chock full of useless features, bugs, and self-indulgence for the look-at-me crowd. The iPhone will be very good and best-in-class some day- when Apple takes stuff out and focuses on what's important to Mr. & Mrs. Camry and stops catering to the tweak zealots who'll defend it to the death. Sound familiar?
> 
> BJ


Also BJ are you saying the Hr2x's should focus on being a DVR and not playing music via mediashare, not do VOD, etc. Just be a fully functioning DVR? If so I have to say I agree with you. I dont need VOD when I have a DVR, I dont need music playing off of my HR2x or the ability to play video's from my computer on it. I dont need MRV either for that matter since I have more than 1 DVR and I damn sure dont need to play games from it when I have a Wii, 360, & a PS3). I need it simply to WORK as a DVR and the majority of "best in breed" DVR's all have 1 thing in common...what's that you ask? DLB.

Replace Iphone with HR2x's and you have something there.

No BJ, Thank you for making MY point. In spades, as you say. The Hr2x's are overloaded enthusiasts device, chock full of useless features, bugs, etc. The HR2x will be very good and best-in-class some day- when DTV takes stuff out and focuses on what's important to Mr. & Mrs. TV watcher and stops catering to the tweak zealots who'll defend it to the death.

Sound familiar???


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> My vote would be to do whatever is in the best interest of the HR20.
> 
> In my opinion, anything that enables stress, confusion, and de-focused behavior is counter to the DVR's goals of providing a relaxing, organized, and focused viewing experience.


How is it that you can handle the chores of organizing a Prioritizer, a To Do List, a Playlist and the Guide, yet you can't manage toggling two tuners? DLB permits two tuners to be toggled. Boom. Simple. Two choices: Toggle or don't. With a playlist, you have a choice to watch Live TV, or any of the 30+ hours of programming you already recorded. Wouldn't that be stressful to have to decide what to do? Or stressful to decide what to record in the first place? Your very reason for arguing against DLB is debunked because DLB would not introduce any more "complexity" (as you argue) than the choices currently facing HR2X users.


----------



## btmoore

I would of liked to see the money they spent on writing and testing the guide spam go into DLB.


----------



## James Long

DLB is not apparently affecting income. Guide spam is income.


----------



## GrumpyBear

GerryC said:


> True, with only one receiver you can't have PIP without DLB. But, I certainly had/have DLB on my R10 and HR10-250 without having PIP.


I agree to that, I have used PiP on purpose 3-4 times max, on my 622. I use the swap to take advantage of the DLB.


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> DLB is not apparently affecting income. Guide spam is income.


It would be interesting, to see how DLB would effect sales/Leases, if they offered it on of the Newer MPEG4 machines. Right now D* says you want to see the the NEW HD channels you have NO choice, but to upgrade to a wayback machine, that is stuck with 1970's on how it works, only thing that isn't 70's based, is it allows you, NOT to use a Tape.


----------



## Doug Brott

James Long said:


> DLB is not apparently affecting income. Guide spam is income.


You do have a point, there.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> It would be interesting, to see how DLB would effect sales/Leases, if they offered it on of the Newer MPEG4 machines. Right now D* says you want to see the the NEW HD channels you have NO choice, but to upgrade to a wayback machine, that is stuck with 1970's on how it works, only thing that isn't 70's based, is it allows you, NOT to use a Tape.


First off, let me make it clear that I would like to see DLB. I'm living fine without it so I'm definitely not an evangelist or champion for the cause, but it would be a nice to have.

Now that that's out of the way, I doubt that the overall sales are being adversely affected by the lack of the feature. Some will not buy the service because of it, but many will:


not know DLB's not there
not know what DLB is
Accept or tolerate DLB's absence (including those "stuck" in a commitment)
Leave DIRECTV or choose to not join DIRECTV because of the lack of a true DLB

IMHO, I believe that the first three will be sufficiently high to make the fourth item negligible. Over time, that formula may change. However, from a business perspective, there are other fish to fry at the moment. Hopefully one day we'll see this great DLB, but for now all we are left to do is ask "what if?"


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> First off, let me make it clear that I would like to see DLB. I'm living fine without it so I'm definitely not an evangelist or champion for the cause, but it would be a nice to have.
> 
> Now that that's out of the way, I doubt that the overall sales are being adversely affected by the lack of the feature. Some will not buy the service because of it, but many will:
> 
> 
> not know DLB's not there
> not know what DLB is
> Accept or tolerate DLB's absence (including those "stuck" in a commitment)
> Leave DIRECTV or choose to not join DIRECTV because of the lack of a true DLB
> 
> IMHO, I believe that the first three will be sufficiently high to make the fourth item negligible. Over time, that formula may change. However, from a business perspective, there are other fish to fry at the moment. Hopefully one day we'll see this great DLB, but for now all we are left to do is ask "what if?"


Your post is dead-on.

For most of us, NFL Sunday Ticket is the "killer-app" of D*. They could double my prices, take away my beloved 'native' mode, and call my mother names but I'd _still _stay happily subscribed for the NFL package.

And there are plenty of others out there who'd let D* stick it to them for the benefit of any TV at all (where cable isn't an option in remote areas), getting local NHL/MLB/NBA (for those that have relocated to another city), and having a stellar HD package (all those great new channels, many not available on their cable provider).

DLB isn't a deal-breaker for most users who turned to D* instead of cable for one of the above-mentioned features. And, as you point out, most of them didn't have a clue it was even there on their prior STB's.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> DLB isn't a deal-breaker for most users who turned to D* instead of cable for one of the above-mentioned features. And, as you point out, most of them didn't have a clue it was even there on their prior STB's.


I never said most don't know about it. What seems more likely is that folks don't know that it's NOT there and then choose to get the service without it or choose to stick with the service due to the exit penalty (or commitment). DIRECTV has made a business decision based on things that we cannot see and it's worked out for them at this point. However, there's no doubt that this is a feature near and dear to many folks. If it were as simple as flipping a switch and Voilà! then I'm sure DIRECTV would have flipped that switch long ago.

BJ, I welcome new features and the more the merrier.


----------



## beer_geek

Please show us the line in Doug's post where he does what you claim:

"And, as you point out, *most* of them didn't have a clue it was even there on their prior STB's." (emphasis added)

Thanks in advance.

I see Doug beat me to it.


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> My vote would be to do whatever is in the best interest of the HR20.
> 
> BJ


If you don't vote, then your opinion (in my opinion) doesn't count.


----------



## 7thton

Just wanted to add that DLB is not, in any way, important to me. I would much rather DirecTV concentrate on other, more pressing, matters.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> First off, let me make it clear that I would like to see DLB. I'm living fine without it so I'm definitely not an evangelist or champion for the cause, but it would be a nice to have.
> 
> Now that that's out of the way, I doubt that the overall sales are being adversely affected by the lack of the feature. Some will not buy the service because of it, but many will:
> 
> 
> not know DLB's not there
> not know what DLB is
> Accept or tolerate DLB's absence (including those "stuck" in a commitment)
> Leave DIRECTV or choose to not join DIRECTV because of the lack of a true DLB
> 
> IMHO, I believe that the first three will be sufficiently high to make the fourth item negligible. Over time, that formula may change. However, from a business perspective, there are other fish to fry at the moment. Hopefully one day we'll see this great DLB, but for now all we are left to do is ask "what if?"


Lets say Direct had a HR20/21/22 DVRs, with the HR22 being the fantasy DLB DVR. How many people in groups 1 and 2 would, when signing up would go for the HR22, vs the other 2? Granted we can't use Dish as a baseline, as all their new HD DVR's are DLB.


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> If you don't vote, then your opinion (in my opinion) doesn't count.


My vote is for sale, and has been since last Fall. Pony up the $50 via PayPal and it's all good.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

beer_geek said:


> Please show us the line in Doug's post where he does what you claim:
> 
> "And, as you point out, *most* of them didn't have a clue it was even there on their prior STB's." (emphasis added)
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> I see Doug beat me to it.





Doug Brott said:


> Some will not buy the service because of it, but many will:
> 
> 
> not know DLB's not there
> not know what DLB is





Sorry, should have said "many", not "most" [even though I'm right].

BJ


----------



## boltjames

7thton said:


> Just wanted to add that DLB is not, in any way, important to me. I would much rather DirecTV concentrate on other, more pressing, matters.


Thank you for participating in our poll. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of car do you drive?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> However, there's no doubt that this is a feature near and dear to many folks. If it were as simple as flipping a switch and Voilà! then I'm sure DIRECTV would have flipped that switch long ago.
> 
> BJ, I welcome new features and the more the merrier.


I agree completely, but if Grumpy's "Fantasy Box" comes true or if DLB comes back via a firmware upgrade, D* had better include a way to disable it completely. If it's permanently mated to a button on the remote without a way to get rid of it, I'm going to start a new thread with a poll demanding D* to allow for DLB-D* in the options menu.

BJ
* Dual Live Buffer-Disable


----------



## Drew2k

I guess BJ has me on INGORE now. I sure would love to understand how DLB is stressful and distracting when having all those other choices that come with a DVR aren't distracting: what to watch, what to record, how to prioritize, etc.


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> My vote is for sale, and has been since last Fall. Pony up the $50 via PayPal and it's all good.
> 
> BJ


Let's start a fund. I'll kick in the first $1.

Anybody else?


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> I agree completely, but if Grumpy's "Fantasy Box" comes true or if DLB comes back via a firmware upgrade, D* had better include a way to disable it completely. If it's permanently mated to a button on the remote without a way to get rid of it, I'm going to start a new thread with a poll demanding D* to allow for DLB-D* in the options menu.
> 
> BJ
> * Dual Live Buffer-Disable


Just unplug the second Sat In coax. Problem solved.

(And if you need to record two shows at once, just get a second HR2x, and only connect one Sat In. Problem solved again.)


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> I agree completely, but if Grumpy's "Fantasy Box" comes true or if DLB comes back via a firmware upgrade, D* had better include a way to disable it completely. If it's permanently mated to a button on the remote without a way to get rid of it, I'm going to start a new thread with a poll demanding D* to allow for DLB-D* in the options menu.
> 
> BJ
> * Dual Live Buffer-Disable


Uh .. no! I still have faith that we'll see DLB one day down the road, but I can't imagine anyone (sans BJ) that would actually want to turn it off. I'm sure DLB would have to be so integrated that it would be impossible to turn off so you have two options that you can employ on your own:

-) Unplug one of the two coax (as suggested  )
-) Get a universal remote and just don't program the toggle button

It really would be silly to spend time trying to turn it off when so many other things are likely going on.

Heck, I can't even optionally turn off the PIG which seems as simply as making that portion of the screen black rather than showing the video and that's a feature that I would use frequently.


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> Sorry, should have said "many", not "most" [even though I'm right].
> 
> BJ


Ah, you neglected to quote my third item which is really where the bulk of my "many" live. I'd say in fact that I am in that category but as an "accept" not as a "tolerate."


----------



## Drew2k

I have five DRS in one room, two of which already have DLB, so I don't *need* DLB on my HR20, I'm accepting of the situation as it stands now, and am patiently waiting for it. I accept it, but I still want it.


----------



## beer_geek

Drew2k said:


> I guess BJ has me on INGORE now. I sure would love to understand how DLB is stressful and distracting when having all those other choices that come with a DVR aren't distracting: what to watch, what to record, how to prioritize, etc.


Another question you need to ask when thinking about core DVR functions:

Should I watch Live TV, a direct recording of Live TV, a DoD recording of TV or look at pictures/listen to music that's on my computer?

The horror.


----------



## Lord Vader

Drew2k said:


> I guess BJ has me on INGORE now. I sure would love to understand how DLB is stressful and distracting when having all those other choices that come with a DVR aren't distracting: what to watch, what to record, how to prioritize, etc.


Has BJ ever bothered to consider the stress and aggravation that the HR20s have caused to numerous users when the units have failed to record things? Or when they've mysteriously stopped recording while in the middle of something? Or why they mysteriously deleted all recordings from the drive? Just wondering.


----------



## Que

42 new post in 24 hours....WOW! I guess I need to come here every hour just to keep up.


----------



## ATARI

Que said:


> 42 new post in 24 hours....WOW! I guess I need to come here every hour just to keep up.


Slow day at work today, so actually, yes, I am checking it every hour 

Here's an idea, since this thread seems to be so popular, make a website for it:

DLBTalk.com


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> I guess BJ has me on INGORE now. I sure would love to understand how DLB is stressful and distracting when having all those other choices that come with a DVR aren't distracting: what to watch, what to record, how to prioritize, etc.


No, not on ignore. You're just the best debater of the group and sometimes my strategy is to let time pass and change the subject instead of getting caught in one of your TLT*'s.

BJ
*Tricky Logic Trap


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> Has BJ ever bothered to consider the stress and aggravation that the HR20s have caused to numerous users when the units have failed to record things? Or when they've mysteriously stopped recording while in the middle of something? Or why they mysteriously deleted all recordings from the drive? Just wondering.


Since I have two HR20's for over a year each and have never experienced a single one of these "mysterious" issues, no, I don't consider it at all.

Perhaps what's going on is that people who mod and download beta firmware are finding that they are causing problems for themselves that we regular folk don't have. Or perhaps what's going on is that you own a defective unit that needs replacing. Or perhaps a physical issue like tree obstructions or old coax cable is causing your trouble.

My HR20's function flawlessly. I lost the signal entirely one night when ice built up on the dish and another night D* had a computer glitch that took down some viewers for a few minutes. Other than that, it's been flawless. Thank you God, for D* and their humble servant, the HR20.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Since I have two HR20's for over a year each and have never experienced a single one of these "mysterious" issues, no, I don't consider it at all.
> 
> Perhaps what's going on is that people who mod and download beta firmware are finding that they are causing problems for themselves that we regular folk don't have. Or perhaps what's going on is that you own a defective unit that needs replacing. Or perhaps a physical issue like tree obstructions or old coax cable is causing your trouble.
> 
> My HR20's function flawlessly. I lost the signal entirely one night when ice built up on the dish and another night D* had a computer glitch that took down some viewers for a few minutes. Other than that, it's been flawless. Thank you God, for D* and their humble servant, the HR20.
> 
> BJ


How often do you restart your units, either because of issues or as preventative maintenance? Have you had gone the entire year on NR's without any restarts?


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> No, not on ignore. You're just the best debater of the group and sometimes my strategy is to let time pass and change the subject instead of getting caught in one of your TLT*'s.
> 
> BJ
> *Tricky Logic Trap


Well I appreciate the compliment, although I don't feel deserving, and applaud you for not ducking undercover ... :goodjob:


----------



## raw121

boltjames said:


> Since I have two HR20's for over a year each and have never experienced a single one of these "mysterious" issues, no, I don't consider it at all.
> .
> .
> .
> My HR20's function flawlessly. I lost the signal entirely one night when ice built up on the dish and another night D* had a computer glitch that took down some viewers for a few minutes. Other than that, it's been flawless. Thank you God, for D* and their humble servant, the HR20.
> 
> BJ


I don't believe that you have never had an issue with these machines, no matter how small. You know like a recording, a core DVR function by the way, starting seconds into the opening of the show*. I also don't believe the people in this thread who say they never had a problem with the HR10-250. You just are a little less likely to worry about the problems if you are happy with your overall experience. And I can't say that I have heard anyone as happy with a product as you with this one.

*This has become less than of an issue but has been prevalent for a long time.


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> How often do you restart your units, either because of issues or as preventative maintenance? Have you had gone the entire year on NR's without any restarts?


My HR20's restart themselves whenever new channels are added; I know this as I turn the blue lights off the front panel and whenever I get a notification from DBS that new HD's went live coincidentally the lights are lit and have to be shut off again.

The only other restart occurred that night about 6 weeks ago when D* was doing a computer upgrade on their end that accidentally cancelled DVR service to a percentage of the subscriber base. A phone call to D* later, they told me to reset both boxes and they've been fine since.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

raw121 said:


> I don't believe that you have never had an issue with these machines, no matter how small. You know like a recording, a core DVR function by the way, starting seconds into the opening of the show*. I also don't believe the people in this thread who say they never had a problem with the HR10-250. You just are a little less likely to worry about the problems if you are happy with your overall experience. And I can't say that I have heard anyone as happy with a product as you with this one.
> 
> *This has become less than of an issue but has been prevalent for a long time.


No, no shows recording after the show has started. American Idol has cut off early, but that's because it's live and it occasionally runs over.

On days when there's a thunderstorm or my icing incident, I've had recordings cease or only record a segment, but that's because of mother nature.

The HR10 was a completely different story. That box was a horror show. Audio dropouts, screen freezes, slow and tedious navigation, you name it. Perhaps the reason I am so in love with my HR20's is because the HR10 set the bar so low. Either way, no problems to report with either HR20 excepting mother nature and a D* computer glitch that affected thousands of other users one random night.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Well I appreciate the compliment, although I don't feel deserving, and applaud you for not ducking undercover ... :goodjob:


Sehr gut dann. Sehen Sie....I'm nicht solch eine schlechte Person. Wenn man nicht eine kritisieren kann Selbst, sollte man nicht in der LageSEIN, andere zu kritisieren. Das ist, was meine Mutter pflegte, irgendwie zu sagen.

O.K. dann. Lassen Sie mich so versuchen, Ihre Frage zu beantworten. Was war es wieder?

BJ


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> Very well then. See .... I'm not such a bad person. If you are not a self-criticism can, you should not be able to criticize others. That's what my mother used to say anyway.
> 
> O.K. Then. Allow me to try to answer your question. What was it again?
> 
> BJ


A reminder, this is an English language site.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> A reminder, this is an English language site.


Oops. Sorry about that. Got my discussion forums mixed up. Goes over really well on Bimmerfest though.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> My HR20's restart themselves whenever new channels are added; I know this as I turn the blue lights off the front panel and whenever I get a notification from DBS that new HD's went live coincidentally the lights are lit and have to be shut off again.
> 
> The only other restart occurred that night about 6 weeks ago when D* was doing a computer upgrade on their end that accidentally cancelled DVR service to a percentage of the subscriber base. A phone call to D* later, they told me to reset both boxes and they've been fine since.
> 
> BJ


The units restart when new channels are added? That's not normal behavior. My units only restart by themselves after they are upgraded with new NR software in the middle of the night. Sounds like you have defective boxes and software if they are restarting whenever the guide list changes. I don't remember that problem listed as a software bug in the software issues/discussion threads, but I may be wrong. So much for perfect units...still without DLB.


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Oops. Sorry about that. Got my discussion forums mixed up. Goes over really well on Bimmerfest though.
> 
> BJ


Just scroll back ... the questions are still there.


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> The units restart when new channels are added? That's not normal behavior. My units only restart by themselves after they are upgraded with new NR software in the middle of the night. Sounds like you have defective boxes and software if they are restarting whenever the guide list changes. I don't remember that problem listed as a software bug in the software issues/discussion threads, but I may be wrong. So much for perfect units...still without DLB.


LOL. Whatever the circumstance, if it's preventing me from getting the issues that some of you others are having, it's all good. Maybe I've discovered the cure for your ills. Maybe I'm a, a, a.........a hero.

BJ


----------



## jahgreen

raw121 said:


> I don't believe that you have never had an issue with these machines, no matter how small. You know like a recording, a core DVR function by the way, starting seconds into the opening of the show*. I also don't believe the people in this thread who say they never had a problem with the HR10-250. You just are a little less likely to worry about the problems if you are happy with your overall experience. And I can't say that I have heard anyone as happy with a product as you with this one.
> 
> *This has become less than of an issue but has been prevalent for a long time.


Hard as it is for those with multiple problems to believe, there are those of us who have had almost no issues with the HR20.

In one full year, I have had (1) one recording missed entirely, because the software download the previous evening froze the HR20; (2) the "no DVR service" glitch one time within the last two weeks, which made me miss half of American Idol (some might say that was a plus). Oh, yes, _*very *_occasional pixellation and AV sync issues, which may or may not have been HR20-related. I'm not sure I'd classify any of these as a problem with the box, but it's not worth arguing about.

Otherwise nothing.

So, let's make a deal. You will believe those who say they have had no issues, and I will believe those who say they have lots of big problems.

Heck, forget it. I'll believe both those who say they've had no problems AND those who say they've had big problems, even if you won't agree to the deal.

I get just as annoyed with people here who attack folks with issues as I do with people who attack posters who say they haven't had issues. I think both are true and it depends on the box you received, how you use your machine, and your overall configuration. The flaw in the HR20 is that it is not consistent among boxes and across all user setups. Therefore both extremes of user experience are likely valid.

Sorry, I digressed. Back to the boltjames DLB variety hour!


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> Maybe I'm a, a, a.........a hero.


In a way you are .. were it not for your anti-DLB stance this thread would have been dead long ago.


----------



## superleo

I been using a HR-21 for around a week, and I could say that if it had LDB it would make it a much better unit. The GUI is not that bad, after using a tivo for many years it just takes time to readjust, I have both DVRs active the Tivo and the HR-21.

If Directv will listen to their users, and if they would like to make the software better they would add DLB, unless ofcourse there is a patent or agreement issue with tivo that might be holding them back.

So Directv add LDB to the software.


----------



## Doug Brott

superleo,

We've long determined that there are no Patent issues related to DLB ..


----------



## Lord Vader

Dr. Booda said:


> The units restart when new channels are added? That's not normal behavior. My units only restart by themselves after they are upgraded with new NR software in the middle of the night. Sounds like you have defective boxes and software if they are restarting whenever the guide list changes. I don't remember that problem listed as a software bug in the software issues/discussion threads, but I may be wrong. So much for perfect units...still without DLB.


It must be normal behavior, because as BJ has repeatedly explained, these units are the greatest thing since the invention/discovery of electricity.


----------



## raw121

jahgreen said:


> Hard as it is for those with multiple problems to believe, there are those of us who have had almost no issues with the HR20.
> 
> In one full year, I have had (1) one recording missed entirely, because the software download the previous evening froze the HR20; (2) the "no DVR service" glitch one time within the last two weeks, which made me miss half of American Idol (some might say that was a plus). Oh, yes, _*very *_occasional pixellation and AV sync issues, which may or may not have been HR20-related. I'm not sure I'd classify any of these as a problem with the box, but it's not worth arguing about.
> 
> Otherwise nothing.


Ummm. I think you just made my point here. You have had small problems that you are brushing off as nothing, but you have lost 1 and half recordings. Some people may not consider that to be acceptable. I, myself, think that really isn't that bad for something this complex over that period of time, but I wouldn't claim no problems either.


----------



## Drew2k

jahgreen said:


> Sorry, I digressed. Back to the boltjames DLB variety hour!


Thank you. You just really put a smile on my face.


----------



## smithrh

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275961


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, well, well. Isn't this interesting? The mask is off. The truth is out!


----------



## Drew2k

Or ... you've taken the bait from the breadcrumb oh so carefully left in an earlier post and we'll soon be talking about anything but DLB. Instead of talking about bad manners and egos, let's talk about DLB!


----------



## jheda

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BJ I hear the new bimmers come loaded with DLB, standard, not optional.



smithrh said:


> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275961


----------



## dennisj00

boltjames said:


> Thank you for participating in our poll. If you don't mind me asking, what kind of car do you drive?
> 
> BJ


Such a bad example to stereotype . . .

If I had an opinion or had to guess, I'd say you were the D*Tv executive that selected the HR2x series and / or canned DLB -- or put it on a slow boat of priority.

Hopefully, you're fired now or demoted to the mail room but are still promoting the glory of your choices, trying to prove how right you were with no facts to back your decision.

Of course, since you're only using your single purpose HR2x to record, you may not be having any problems. But the other population is!! Read the HR20/21 Q&A threads. . . nevermind, you don't spend any time on any of the other threads. . . from looking at your posts you only CARE about DLB!! ??

And your single purpose DVR doesn't even do that very well! Half recordings, missed recordings, GREY / BLACK recordings -- all what we want in a DVR!! But I'm sure it's just a connector or a bad piece of cable causing those ISOLATED problems. Not the super-duper HR2x!!

One day we'll have DLB -- just like EVERY other DVR in the marketplace! Maybe on the HR3x series????????

By the way, the DLB 'workaround' worked fine this week with NO stress induced! And on a CE no less!


----------



## Drew2k

We all [strike]drive BMW'S[/strike] *use DIRECTV DVRs*, right? Why can't we all be respectful to each other?


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Or ... you've taken the bait from the breadcrumb oh so carefully left in an earlier post and we'll soon be talking about anything but DLB. Instead of talking about bad manners and egos, let's talk about DLB!




BJ


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> It must be normal behavior, because as BJ has repeatedly explained, these units are the greatest thing since the invention/discovery of electricity.


The HR20 is, without question, one of the greatest consumer electronics products ever created. Electricity is #2 on the list with the HR20 sitting at #17. Not bad.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

dennisj00 said:


> Such a bad example to stereotype . . .
> 
> If I had an opinion or had to guess, I'd say you were the D*Tv executive that selected the HR2x series and / or canned DLB -- or put it on a slow boat of priority.


My question of "what car do you drive?" wasn't there as a put-down to the poster but rather a way to validate my belief that this thread is a hive for unhappy HR10/20 power users and that the typical Mr. & Mrs. Camry Average America don't come this forum very often and, if they did in numbers representing the true userbase, that we'd see that far more people are fine without DLB.

Mainly because they never knew it was there and/or don't see the value in something that turns their DVR into a 'jump' button.

BJ


----------



## James Long

Or it was a feeble attempt to draw more attention to yourself instead of doing what the DBSTalk User Agreement requires and staying on the topic of this thread.

:backtotop : DLB or Not


----------



## vicmeldrew

boltjames said:


> My question of "what car do you drive?" wasn't there as a put-down to the poster but rather a way to validate my belief that this thread is a hive for unhappy HR10/20 power users and that the typical Mr. & Mrs. Camry Average America don't come this forum very often and, if they did in numbers representing the true userbase, that we'd see that far more people are fine without DLB.
> 
> Mainly because they never knew it was there and/or don't see the value in something that turns their DVR into a 'jump' button.
> 
> BJ


well i guess i am the exception - a 97 taurus and i want DLB - and i will get it somewhere.


----------



## ATARI

smithrh said:


> http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275961


Can't drive a stick?

WHA?!?


----------



## BostonIrish

I've been very disappointed by the DLB issue. I've been a DirecTV customer for 13 years. This issue and the several other performance issues I have experienced with the HR20 have really changed my opinion about DirecTV (especially their customer service).

If it weren't for NFL Sunday ticket, I would be considering other alternatives. When/if the day comes that Sunday ticket is available elsewhere, I will seriously consider abandoning them unless there is a drastic turnaround in service/support. I think this is unfortunate, because I used to consider DirecTV as top notch in regards to customer service.


----------



## boltjames

BostonIrish said:


> I've been very disappointed by the DLB issue. I've been a DirecTV customer for 13 years. This issue and the several other performance issues I have experienced with the HR20 have really changed my opinion about DirecTV (especially their customer service).
> 
> If it weren't for NFL Sunday ticket, I would be considering other alternatives. When/if the day comes that Sunday ticket is available elsewhere, I will seriously consider abandoning them unless there is a drastic turnaround in service/support. I think this is unfortunate, because I used to consider DirecTV as top notch in regards to customer service.


I'd like to apologize for your displeasure over some issues you're having with your HR20, issues that must be the fault of the installer or some old coax cable.

To make amends, I'd like to buy your poll vote for $50. PM me for details.

BJ


----------



## Tallgntlmn

boltjames said:


> if they did in numbers representing the true userbase, that we'd see that far more people are fine without DLB.


That may be true. It would seem to me that the unhappy power users you speak of are the ones that came from the D*TiVo to the HR series. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the installed base of DVRs now did not experience how good TiVo is at certain things.

I want an HR series because my damn SD-DVR40 won't stop freezing and rebooting with all the stupid buggy updates. BUT, I know how I use it and it is the lack of DLB that is stopping me from picking up the phone and begging for an upgrade. Like right now, I have the local news on one tuner and ESPN on the other and I am pausing ESPN and going to the news and vice versa. It's my understanding that I cannot EASILY do that with an HR series. When I say easily, I mean just hitting pause, down, pause. I can't imagine what a PITA it would be during the NFL season when I like to keep the Bucs on one tuner and flip between games with the other one.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

what the f is a 428?



jheda said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> BJ I hear the new bimmers come loaded with DLB, standard, not optional.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Tallgntlmn said:


> I can't imagine what a PITA it would be during the NFL season when I like to keep the Bucs on one tuner and flip between games with the other one.


You can do that. Set the Bucs game to record and flip between other games on the other tuner. You can also paush a live channel while you are recording the Bucs game and then switch back and forth. Its not as easy. But being that you are actually recording the Bucs game the "workaround" actually works for your situation. I was worried about this too because I record my Bears every Sunday and I use the other tuner to watch the other teams in the NFCN.

Here is the workaround.



> Setup
> Tune to Show 1 and press {®}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Switch between tuners
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> 
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary


Its not as quick as the Tivo but its possible. Being that you are actually recording on one of the tuners.


----------



## raw121

94SupraTT said:


> You can do that. Set the Bucs game to record and flip between other games on the other tuner. You can also paush a live channel while you are recording the Bucs game and then switch back and forth. Its not as easy. But being that you are actually recording the Bucs game the "workaround" actually works for your situation. I was worried about this too because I record my Bears every Sunday and I use the other tuner to watch the other teams in the NFCN.
> 
> Here is the workaround.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Setup
> Tune to Show 1 and press {®}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Switch between tuners
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> 
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> 
> 
> 
> Its not as quick as the Tivo but its possible. Being that you are actually recording on one of the tuners.
Click to expand...

This really doesn't work all that well for what he described. As soon as you start switching between games on the second tuner the {prev} works like it is designed to do and switches you to the last channel and not the recording program. You have to go to list and do the play thing again. It ends up being a lot more button presses which I guess is what puts the WORK in workaround.

That isn't the biggest problem with the workaround. That would be if you your game goes over the scheduled time you lose the most important part of the game.


----------



## Que

raw121 said:


> That isn't the biggest problem with the workaround. That would be if you your game goes over the scheduled time you lose the most important part of the game.


That would kill me... It just stop recording and I lost the buffer. If you do this so called workaround, you need to record the next 3 show. Just to make sure you have the full game.


----------



## James Long

Do your DVRs not have "extend past end of program" time settings?
Mine can be set for a range from one minute to 90 minutes, with a default of 60 minutes forced on "sporting events".

If you can't set an "extended end time" then perhaps BJ is wrong about the HR20 being "perfect".


----------



## dennisj00

Perhaps?? !! The HR20 is far from being perfect!

Just give us a way to switch to the second tuner (even with a smaller buffer) without losing the buffers (or rebooting!)


----------



## Drew2k

James Long said:


> Do your DVRs not have "extend past end of program" time settings?
> Mine can be set for a range from one minute to 90 minutes, with a default of 60 minutes forced on "sporting events".


The HR2X can pad a recording to end later than the original scheduled end-time either when the recording is first scheduled, or anytime thereafter while the recording is still in progress.


----------



## txtommy

I believe this closes the case for DLB:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080411/D8VVS6O80.html


----------



## Que

txtommy said:


> I believe this closes the case for DLB:
> 
> http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080411/D8VVS6O80.html


Then what are all these other DVRs going to do????

All *HAVE DLB:*

AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

There is no patent on DLB.


----------



## Drew2k

txtommy said:


> I believe this closes the case for DLB:
> 
> http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080411/D8VVS6O80.html


Actually, no it doesn't. The TiVo patent dispute with Echostar has nothing to do with DLB. It's already been discussed that TiVo does not have a patent on DLB.


----------



## txtommy

Drew2k said:


> Actually, no it doesn't. The TiVo patent dispute with Echostar has nothing to do with DLB. It's already been discussed that TiVo does not have a patent on DLB.


What then is the dispute? Sure sounds like DLB in everything I can find about it. And if there is no patent, why is Directv so resistant toward offering it?


----------



## Que

txtommy said:


> What then is the dispute? Sure sounds like DLB in everything I can find about it. And if there is no patent, why is Directv so resistant toward offering it?


There are tons of bugs still in this DVR and IMHO they don't want to mess anything MORE up. I really think they need to get NEW people in there, after 2 years it still not working right.


----------



## Drew2k

txtommy said:


> What then is the dispute? Sure sounds like DLB in everything I can find about it. And if there is no patent, why is Directv so resistant toward offering it?


There's a thread in the Dish form discussing the suit in detail. The suit (which TiVo won and Echostar is promising to take to the Supreme Court) is about Echostar infringing on TiVo's "Time Warp" patent, not DLB issues. It's about the basic methods Dish is using to record programs, something Dish says thay have now resolved after coming up with their own method and pushing the new method to all of their "infringing" DVRs.

The reason that DLB is not included in the HR2X series of DVRs is that DIRECTV chose not to implement it, and in the previous DLB thread that reason seemed to have been because DIRECTV was working on another feature for the DVR that took priority or that the presence of DLB would have interfered with that feature. This Feature X has still not been implemented and many suspect it is MRV or the On Demand "push" that will put movies onto the hard drive in the background (using dedicated storage space that will not take away from a user's available recording space), but we just don't know what Feature X is.


----------



## James Long

Drew2k said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do your DVRs not have "extend past end of program" time settings?
> Mine can be set for a range from one minute to 90 minutes, with a default of 60 minutes forced on "sporting events".
> 
> 
> 
> The HR2X can pad a recording to end later than the original scheduled end-time either when the recording is first scheduled, or anytime thereafter while the recording is still in progress.
Click to expand...

I thought padding was there ... it "padding" were missing it would be worth a few thousand post threads complaining about it. 

Apparently someone doesn't know the features of their own DVR.


----------



## dennisj00

I don't know of any 'padding' or extending the end time as a default only for sporting events (or any other category).

You can extend any recording but that's a further PITA to use in the workaround.


----------



## inkahauts

My ultimate tv used to automatically pad for sports as well....

The cool thing about the way the HR pads, is that it can also record the program immediately after a show your padding, (yes, basically the same thing as recording the same show twice) and have them listed as 2 separate shows in your playlist, but watch and delete either one independently and not have it affect the other, all the while only using up the space on the hard drive as though its all one recording, and it doesn't keep you from recording on the other tuner... If you do it just right, you can actually record 15 shows at the exact same time on an hr2... as long as they are all on two channels, an one is vod... ( I did it once just to see it)

Ok, I will now make a prediction because I can... We will get DLB.... And it will be within 6 months of us receiving MRV...


----------



## James Long

Overlapping recordings on the same channel is a cool feature.


----------



## btmoore

James Long said:


> Overlapping recordings on the same channel is a cool feature.


I don't know if I would call it cool, more like odd, that is one hell of a strange corner case where that "feature" is useful, unlike DLB which has been demonstrated to be a high value use case.


----------



## James Long

I often record back to back shows on the same network and it would be nice to be able to pad both programs a minute early and a minute late so I can do exactly what was suggested in a previous post ... delete one program without deleting the other.

With clock drift on networks and the tendacy to push programs right up against each other with valuable content from the end of the first program (scenes from the next episode or a punchline tag to the program) pushed within a second of the beginning of the second program a little overlap IS nice.

Another example would be when TBS overlaps their movies, running the credits for one next to the beginning of the next. Overlap solves that problem (since underpadding - telling the receiver to record all except the last minute of the program - doesn't seem to be an option unless one sets a manual timer).

DLB is neat ... and I'm living without overlapping recordings so that feature isn't a deal breaker for me ... but it is a feature.


----------



## Drew2k

Ability to overlap recordings on the same channel is definitely a cool feature ... 

The only way it could be improved is to provide "automatic soft-padding", where a user can specify how early to start recording (ex: by 1, 2, 3 minutes) and how late to end recording (1, 2, 3 minutes) for all recordings, but ONLY if adding the padding doesn't cause a conflict. Windows Media Center has this feature, and it's a great way to account for clock differences and early or late network starts. I do wish DIRECTV would add this feature, but that's a topic for another thread.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Drew2k said:


> Ability to overlap recordings on the same channel is definitely a cool feature ...
> 
> The only way it could be improved is to provide "automatic soft-padding", where a user can specify how early to start recording (ex: by 1, 2, 3 minutes) and how late to end recording (1, 2, 3 minutes) for all recordings, but ONLY if adding the padding doesn't cause a conflict. Windows Media Center has this feature, and it's a great way to account for clock differences and early or late network starts. I do wish DIRECTV would add this feature, but that's a topic for another thread.


Ultimate TV did this, all shows started 1 minute early and ended 5 minutes late.


----------



## raw121

James Long said:


> I thought padding was there ... it "padding" were missing it would be worth a few thousand post threads complaining about it.
> 
> Apparently someone doesn't know the features of their own DVR.


I know that you can add padding but it is even more steps added to the workaround. Which is what I was commenting on.



> Setup
> Tune to Show 1 and press {®}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Switch between tuners
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> 
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary


It is not this.


----------



## Tom Robertson

James Long said:


> I often record back to back shows on the same network and it would be nice to be able to pad both programs a minute early and a minute late so I can do exactly what was suggested in a previous post ... delete one program without deleting the other.
> 
> With clock drift on networks and the tendacy to push programs right up against each other with valuable content from the end of the first program (scenes from the next episode or a punchline tag to the program) pushed within a second of the beginning of the second program a little overlap IS nice.
> 
> Another example would be when TBS overlaps their movies, running the credits for one next to the beginning of the next. Overlap solves that problem (since underpadding - telling the receiver to record all except the last minute of the program - doesn't seem to be an option unless one sets a manual timer).
> 
> DLB is neat ... and I'm living without overlapping recordings so that feature isn't a deal breaker for me ... but it is a feature.


James, very well said description of the issues.

As a computer scientist, programmer, user, and generally knowledgeable person, TiVo had a few lackings that drove me absolutely nuts. One was single tuner overlap. There are so many trivial ways to handle that problem, I was heaping many praises upon DIRECTV for getting that part right about a year ago. Woohoo!

I look forward to these very bright people solving the problems and adding DLB too. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> I look forward to these very bright people solving the problems and adding DLB too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom,

So as far as you know, DLB is not dead? Or is it just wishful thinking on your part?

Throw us a bone, please.


----------



## Que

Tom Robertson said:


> hoo!
> 
> I look forward to these very bright people solving the problems and adding DLB too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Are these people that are in place now or people that are new coming to the team?


----------



## btmoore

Que said:


> Are these people that are in place now or people that are new coming to the team?


Your post made me laugh. I vote new bright people are needed. But I would bet it is more in the product market requirements team where they are needed because IMO the current crew does not get the needs or wants of their existing customer base.


----------



## Richierich

Had a BLAST yesterday with my HR10-250 switching back between the Regular CBS Coverage of The Masters and the Directv Special Amen Corner Telecast because I could switch between buffers.

Too bad we don't have that FEATURE on the HR21-700 or other HRxx models!!!


----------



## boltjames

richierich said:


> Had a BLAST yesterday with my HR10-250 switching back between the Regular CBS Coverage of The Masters and the Directv Special Amen Corner Telecast because I could switch between buffers.
> 
> Too bad we don't have that FEATURE on the HR21-700 or other HRxx models!!!


And I had a BLAST using the "jump" button between the end of the Masters and the start of the Rangers Playoff Game. By choosing "record" for the Rangers game I was able to hop back/forth for 30 minutes and rewind when I'd missed the first goal of the game.

Buffer hopping is available on the HR20. You just hit the "record" button.

Oh, and part of my BLAST was enjoying 80 channels of MPEG4 content last night too. How are your 11 MPEG2 channels doing?

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> And I had a BLAST using the "jump" button between the end of the Masters and the start of the Rangers Playoff Game. By choosing "record" for the Rangers game I was able to hop back/forth for 30 minutes and rewind when I'd missed the first goal of the game.
> 
> Buffer hopping is available on the HR20. You just hit the "record" button.
> 
> Oh, and part of my BLAST was enjoying 80 channels of MPEG4 content last night too. How are your 11 MPEG2 channels doing?
> 
> BJ


So you do use the DLB workaround.....


----------



## Tom Robertson

ATARI said:


> Tom,
> 
> So as far as you know, DLB is not dead? Or is it just wishful thinking on your part?
> 
> Throw us a bone, please.


It has been awhile since I spoke to DIRECTV about DLB. At that time, DLB was not dead. Down on the list of features to be implemented, partially because of the technical issues and partially because of features they need to and/or want to install first. (At certain points, "need to", could be read both as prerequisites for DLB and as obligations for features to support other new services...)

For technical issues, I don't particularly mean the buffering of two streams; that's just testing, testing, testing, if the prerequisites are in place. The technical issues are coordination of all the planned features.

I have no current timeline, roadmap, feature cycle list that includes DLB. I remain fairly sure it is not dead, but not actively being addressed either.

I'm trying to characterize the size of the bone correctly. All hope is not dead. And DIRECTV does have some very bright people working on the HR2x family.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> So you do use the DLB workaround.....


I don't know if this is the "workaround" as much as it's common sense. The entire point of a DVR is to let you watch one thing live while recording another. It's a bit of a 'bonus' that you can jump between the live show and the recording show as you like and back up on the one that's recording to see if you missed something.

Instead of crying about not being able to watch both tuners in a buffered state, I just hit the 'record' button. It's really easy. In fact, I use my right thumb. Just a bit of a bend and a slight push and it's all over. Easier than picking my nose or shifting my BMW from "P" to "D". You should try it. It's a round button with a redish color painted on it.

BJ


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> All hope is not dead. And DIRECTV does have some very bright people working on the HR2x family.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for your reply.


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> I remain fairly sure [my opinion] it is not dead, but not actively being addressed either.
> 
> I'm trying to characterize the size of the bone correctly. All hope is not [my opinion] dead. And DIRECTV does have some very bright people [fact] working on the HR2x family.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Fixed.

BJ


----------



## Capt'n

I don't know what forums you visit, but all the ones I've been too frown on quoting someone and changing it like the person wrote it. And on top of that doing it to a mod??

Not Cool!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Capt'n;1552053 said:


> I don't know what forums you visit, but all the ones I've been too frown on quoting someone and changing it like the person wrote it. And on top of that doing it to a mod??
> 
> Not Cool!


As it was not a moderator note but rather a note from a person who also moderates, I was not offended given the inside humor from this thread.

Not that I think he fixed things, mind you.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> I don't know if this is the "workaround" as much as it's common sense. The entire point of a DVR is to let you watch one thing live while recording another. It's a bit of a 'bonus' that you can jump between the live show and the recording show as you like and back up on the one that's recording to see if you missed something.
> 
> Instead of crying about not being able to watch both tuners in a buffered state, I just hit the 'record' button. It's really easy. In fact, I use my right thumb. Just a bit of a bend and a slight push and it's all over. Easier than picking my nose or shifting my BMW from "P" to "D". You should try it. It's a round button with a redish color painted on it.
> 
> BJ


First, I'm not "crying".

Second, I have tired it.

I'm sorry but but I don't get it. Since you admit to using the workaround, and yes it is a workaround, why would you prefer to do setup before hand and have delete stuff afterward over a single press of a button?

Mike


----------



## Kheldar

MicroBeta said:


> I'm sorry but but I don't get it. Since you admit to using the workaround, and yes it is a workaround, why would you prefer to do setup before hand and have delete stuff afterward over a single press of a button?


Because his sole purpose for posting in this thread is to play "devil's advocate", stirring up an argument just for the sake of an argument. He's arguing against a position that he believes in, so logic never enters into it here.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Kheldar said:


> Because his sole purpose for posting in this thread is to play "devil's advocate", stirring up an argument just for the sake of an argument. He's arguing against a position that he believes in, so logic never enters into it here.


I totally agree. 

However, it should also be a cogent argument. 

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

It was just reported on another thread that if you used the Masters 'Interactive' channel, a recording on the other tuner wouldn't start. . . so another wrench in the works?

Interesting that BJ let his guard down and admitted to watching TWO things at the same time!! Sounds a whole lot like he needs DLB!!!


----------



## Flyrx7

boltjames said:


> The entire point of a DVR is to let you watch one thing live while recording another.


[your opinion]

One could argue that the entire point is to "pause live TV". That is, after all, one of the first descriptions used in the original advertising of DVR's. Of course that was when they started as single tuner units.

One could also argue that the entire point is for "time shifting", much like the uses of a VCR. Allowing you to watch what you want, when you want. I believe that is also one of the first sound bites of DVR advertising.

Ultimately, the entire point of a DVR is to give the consumer control over their viewing content, whether it's live, recorded or buffered. [not necessarily just my opinion]

I for one think that this thread would be best served if certain people quit interjecting their opinions as fact when defining what is or what is not a DVR, or a function thereof. [my opinion]

By trying to define what is a DVR, we limit it's capabilities by that definition, unless that definition is vague and open ended. Then it's not really a definition. Any consumer product should be subject to evolution, or it will be doomed to obscurity. That's just my "deep and heavy" theory, or my way of saying that the D* DVR should grow beyond it's current limitations and evolve. Part of that evolution should include DLB. [also my opinion]



boltjames said:


> It's really easy. In fact, I use my right thumb. Just a bit of a bend and a slight push and it's all over. Easier than picking my nose or shifting my BMW from "P" to "D". You should try it. It's a round button with a redish color painted on it.


I also think that the condescending tone of your reply is a bit childish and really doesn't serve this thread, other than to cast bait and fodder in hopes of steering the thread off-topic and pick arguments also not on topic. [my opinion]

Other than that, I do applaud your stick-to-it-of-ness, whether they are your true beliefs or contrived for the sake of argument. I personally think that it must be exhausting to be the polar-opposite on every debate, opinion, common sense, etc., as you appear to be. [my opinion]

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Drew2k

Great 2nd post Frank! Where have you been hiding for four months?


----------



## inkahauts

Flyrx7 said:


> [your opinion]
> 
> common sense, etc., as you appear to be. [my opinion]
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


When people lack common sense in their arguments, they also usually don't realize they are the polar opposite of everyone else, they think everyone else is wrong. Unfortunately, I know of no cure...

Proof is that he never uses proper logic in his arguments, and doesn't respect others opinions.

Also, the other proof is that the only time I see his posts is if someone quotes him. He's the only person I use the ignore feature on.....


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> And I had a BLAST using the "jump" button between the end of the Masters and the start of the Rangers Playoff Game. By choosing "record" for the Rangers game I was able to hop back/forth for 30 minutes and rewind when I'd missed the first goal of the game.
> 
> Buffer hopping is available on the HR20. You just hit the "record" button.
> 
> Oh, and part of my BLAST was enjoying 80 channels of MPEG4 content last night too. How are your 11 MPEG2 channels doing?
> 
> BJ


BJ - You forgot to mention that by recording those very long sports programs in HD, just so you could jump back and forth (aka DLB), with such little space left on your hard drive you ended up deleting all 48 episodes from the first season of your favorite show ever, 'My Little Pony and Friends'.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0184761/


----------



## pkoutoul

I do miss having the dual buffers. I am constantly forgetting about this and switching to another channel during a commercial and then lingering on the other channel, thinking I can come back and rewind if I need to. It would be nice to have this feature back. Of course, it's easy to hit record -- I just need to condition myself to start doing that! 

I guess I agree with those who say that while this would be nice to have, it should be lower in priority than fixing some of the other shortcomings, in particular the 50 program limit and the channels I receive bug.


----------



## Drew2k

I love that there's a "workaround", cumbersome as it is, but have to agree with tiger2005 that the workaround comes with the potential risk that recorded programs could be wiped out if there's not enough available space to record the "live event" which is required to use the workaround.


----------



## boltjames

inkahauts said:


> When people lack common sense in their arguments, they also usually don't realize they are the polar opposite of everyone else, they think everyone else is wrong. Unfortunately, I know of no cure...
> 
> Proof is that he never uses proper logic in his arguments, and doesn't respect others opinions.
> 
> Also, the other proof is that the only time I see his posts is if someone quotes him. He's the only person I use the ignore feature on.....


Talk about the pot(s) calling the kettle black.

Never forget that I'm on the right side of the discussion. I'm the person lauding the HR20 for the great product it is and I'm the person comfortable with the technology and the "loss" of a tweaky gearhead feature that never belonged there to begin with. I don't need to defend my "arguments" as D* has done that for me. DLB's not on the HR20. Pretty hard for me to be wrong, considering the situation.

What's going on here is that we're in a toaster discussion and a bunch of malcontents are wishing the toaster could also make coffee. I'm the toaster fan, defending the toaster, talkin' toaster, makin' toast. All toast, all the time. Yet you coffee people think _I'm _the one with loose screws? You want decaf coffee to appear in your toaster, but _I'm _the man from Mars.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> BJ - You forgot to mention that by recording those very long sports programs in HD, just so you could jump back and forth (aka DLB), with such little space left on your hard drive you ended up deleting all 48 episodes from the first season of your favorite show ever, 'My Little Pony and Friends'.


Cute post, but no one except tweaky gearheads are recording 48 episodes of anything. Just as the typical 1985 VCR owner used his machine to tape the 3 or 4 shows a week that he really had to watch, the typical 2008 DVR owner is doing the same thing. We have gobs of available space because there's so little programming that is important enough to record at all, let alone watch something else simultaneously.

And, again, D* agrees with me. The HR20's somewhat limited drive space supports this claim.

Guys, I love you all dearly, but please start seeing the forest through the trees. This isn't the DVR for you. That's why you're so unhappy. That's why all the 80+ incremental HD channels in the world from D* can't satisfy you enough to overcome the loss of DLB. You bought the wrong car.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Talk about the pot(s) calling the kettle black.
> 
> Never forget that I'm on the right side of the discussion. I'm the person lauding the HR20 for the great product it is and I'm the person comfortable with the technology and the "loss" of a tweaky gearhead feature that never belonged there to begin with. I don't need to defend my "arguments" as D* has done that for me. DLB's not on the HR20. Pretty hard for me to be wrong, considering the situation.
> 
> What's going on here is that we're in a toaster discussion and a bunch of malcontents are wishing the toaster could also make coffee. I'm the toaster fan, defending the toaster, talkin' toaster, makin' toast. All toast, all the time. Yet you coffee people think _I'm _the one with loose screws? You want decaf coffee to appear in your toaster, but _I'm _the man from Mars.
> 
> BJ


Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a thread for discussing DLB?

Doesn't that mean we are to discuss our opinions/theorys/functionality about DLB?

Are you saying that your are trying to hijack the thread and turn it into a discussion about the merits of the HR2x and prevent discussion about DLB?

Help me out here.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Cute post, but no one except tweaky gearheads are recording 48 episodes of anything. Just as the typical 1985 VCR owner used his machine to tape the 3 or 4 shows a week that he really had to watch, the typical 2008 DVR owner is doing the same thing. We have gobs of available space because there's so little programming that is important enough to record at all, let alone watch something else simultaneously.
> 
> And, again, D* agrees with me. The HR20's somewhat limited drive space supports this claim.
> 
> Guys, I love you all dearly, but please start seeing the forest through the trees. This isn't the DVR for you. That's why you're so unhappy. That's why all the 80+ incremental HD channels in the world from D* can't satisfy you enough to overcome the loss of DLB. You bought the wrong car.
> 
> BJ


Just because you don't think there isn't anything "important enough to record", doesn't mean you can start calling those that have a lot of recordings names.

Just because I want DLB doesn't mean I'm "unhappy". I'm pretty happy with both of my HR2x's.

However, unlike you, I think there is room for improvement.

That is a far cry from being unhappy with the DVR.

Don't tell us we need to shutup and move on. At least that is the way I understand your post.

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a thread for discussing DLB?
> 
> Doesn't that mean we are to discuss our opinions/theorys/functionality about DLB?
> 
> Are you saying that your are trying to hijack the thread and turn it into a discussion about the merits of the HR2x and prevent discussion about DLB?
> 
> Help me out here.
> 
> Mike


No. No hijack. Just saying that my "thoughts on Dual Live Buffers" are just as valid as anyone else's and that just because I am not supportive of DLB coming back doesn't mean that I'm the one to be singled out and mocked.

11 upset gearheads have their right to an opinion just as 1 happy typical-guy has a right to his.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Just because you don't think there isn't anything "important enough to record", doesn't mean you can start calling those that have a lot of recordings names.
> 
> Don't tell us we need to shutup and move on. At least that is the way I understand your post.
> 
> Mike


First, I'm not calling anyone names. And, _please_, have you read what others say about me? I'm the one with the thick skin here.

Next, not saying "shut up and move on". Just saying that there are other DVR's out there that can satify those who are so upset about the loss of DLB that they will never, _ever _forgive D* and hold the rest of us accountable for enabling their decisions.

You feel the way you want to feel. That's your right. Just don't hate on those who feel differently.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> No. No hijack. Just saying that my "thoughts on Dual Live Buffers" are just as valid as anyone else's and that just because I am not supportive of DLB coming back doesn't mean that I'm the one to be singled out and mocked.
> 
> 11 upset gearheads have their right to an opinion just as 1 happy typical-guy has a right to his.
> 
> BJ


I never had an HR10. The HR20 is my first step into HD.

I had the DVR that Directv gave me (HDVR2) and never looked at what else was avaliable.

I came to this forum after I got HD. I AM the average guy. I can read which is how I knew about DLB in the first place(the manual).

I happen to like DLB and I don't understand is why am I an "upset gearhead" for it.



boltjames said:


> Talk about the pot(s) calling the kettle black.
> 
> Never forget that I'm on the right side of the discussion. I'm the person lauding the HR20 for the great product it is and I'm the person comfortable with the technology and the "loss" of a tweaky gearhead feature that never belonged there to begin with. I don't need to defend my "arguments" as D* has done that for me. DLB's not on the HR20. Pretty hard for me to be wrong, considering the situation.
> 
> What's going on here is that we're in a toaster discussion and a bunch of malcontents are wishing the toaster could also make coffee. I'm the toaster fan, defending the toaster, talkin' toaster, makin' toast. All toast, all the time. Yet you coffee people think _I'm _the one with loose screws? You want decaf coffee to appear in your toaster, but _I'm _the man from Mars.
> 
> BJ


However, my original point was that if you're here "lauding the HR20" and saying that it is so good that we shouldn't be discussing DLB, isn't that hijacking the thread?

To the point of the thread, I believe that with all the major DVRs *having *DLB, _and using it as a marketing tool in quick start guides and promotional info_, Directv will have to impliment it sooner or later.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> First, I'm not calling anyone names. And, _please_, have you read what others say about me? I'm the one with the thick skin here.
> 
> Next, not saying "shut up and move on". Just saying that there are other DVR's out there that can satify those who are so upset about the loss of DLB that they will never, _ever _forgive D* and hold the rest of us accountable for enabling their decisions.
> 
> You feel the way you want to feel. That's your right. Just don't hate on those who feel differently.
> 
> BJ


I want DLB.

For me that means making my opinion heard. Also for me, that means keeping the discussion alive...at least until there is a firm resolution.

From my perspective it's pretty simple.

Mike


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> No. No hijack. Just saying that my "thoughts on Dual Live Buffers" are just as valid as anyone else's and that just because I am not supportive of DLB coming back doesn't mean that I'm the one to be singled out and mocked.
> 
> BJ


Sorry, BJ, but you bring this on yourself. If you brought any sort of logical argument to the discussion then people wouldn't get so irritated by your posts. One of your arguments against DLB is that you just can't deal with the stress of having to maintain a channel on both tuners worth watching, yet yesterday you indicated that you were able to successfully use the 'DLB workaround' to record two shows that you then 'buffer hopped' between. That alone refutes any arguments you've made against DLB since YOU are now USING the workaround feature.

I'm sure you'll ignore my post just as you seem to with Drew2k and his 'TLTs' (Tricky Logic Traps). 



boltjames said:


> You're about a year and 1,500 posts too late for that sage wisdom, but riddle me this:
> 
> Why does a feature that encourages stress, confusion, and defocused behavior belong on a device whose primary purpose is to create a relaxed, organized, and focused viewing experience?
> 
> The fact that you struggle to answer this is the precise reason DLB is not on the D* DVR.
> 
> BJ





boltjames said:


> And I had a BLAST using the "jump" button between the end of the Masters and the start of the Rangers Playoff Game. By choosing "record" for the Rangers game I was able to hop back/forth for 30 minutes and rewind when I'd missed the first goal of the game.
> 
> Buffer hopping is available on the HR20. You just hit the "record" button.
> 
> Oh, and part of my BLAST was enjoying 80 channels of MPEG4 content last night too. How are your 11 MPEG2 channels doing?
> 
> BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> You're about a year and 1,500 posts too late for that sage wisdom, but riddle me this:
> 
> Why does a feature that *encourages stress, confusion, and defocused behavior* belong on a device whose primary purpose is to create a relaxed, organized, and focused viewing experience?
> 
> The fact that you struggle to answer this is the precise reason DLB is not on the D* DVR.
> 
> BJ


Interesting....I don't find it confusing or stressful.

I actually enjoy using...it enhances my overall experience. I acutally get frustrated (though admittedly very rare) without it. I've never been frustrated using it.

Could you explain why this would create "stress, confusion, and defocused behavior"?

Mike


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> First, I'm not calling anyone names.





boltjames said:


> Talk about the pot(s) calling the kettle black.


Who are you calling a pot or a kettle?

The guys are right ... your constant praise of the HR20 is off topic for a thread about DLB. Discuss the TOPIC, whether or not DLB is of value, not general praise (or insults) of the HR20 or DirecTV. Discuss the TOPIC, DLB, not each other - or the thread itself.

Unless you LIKE being off topic. 

:backtotop - DLB


----------



## Kheldar

boltjames said:


> And, again, D* agrees with me. The HR20's somewhat limited drive space supports this claim.


Saying that D* agrees with you is like Microsoft calling every new Windows bug an "undocumented feature". Unless and until D* releases a document stating "we intentionally left out Dual Live Buffers because we think only tweaky gearheads will ever use that feature", then you can't say that D* agrees with you.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> Unless you LIKE being off topic.
> 
> :backtotop - DLB


No sir. Me likey being on topic. Me follow rules, sir.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Could you explain why this [DLB] would create "stress, confusion, and defocused behavior"?
> 
> Mike


Sure, happy to oblige.

The fact that the second tuner is there and buffering when DLB is present makes you very aware of that fact. Makes you not only have to decide what program you want to watch right now, but also cognizent of the second tuner and what _it's _tuned to. More often than not, it's causing you to pay attention to it and tune it to something you _might _want to see. That's stressful, confusing, and de-focusing.

The goal of a DVR is to allow you to watch one program live while recording another and/or to record programs while you're not in front of the TV. It's goal is to record, organize, and store these programs. Nowhere in the DVR's DNA does it say that it should be used for Superjump. "DLB" sounds really official. Sounds like it's part of the DVR's DNA. It's not "Dual Live Buffer". It's Superjump. Takes that ol' jump button from your 1975 Magnavox black and white and puts it on steriods.

Most importantly, hopping around between two tuners and rewinding/pausing both of them is the exact opposite purpose of the DVR. The DVR is designed to allow you to not worry about the second program because you have the ability to just record it. DLB encourages you to watch two shows simultaneously. That's not what the DVR is about at all.

The bottom line is that a DVR is not about watching live TV or enhancing live TV. It's about _recording _TV. Huge difference. It's about creating a worry-free, time-free experience out of watching television. DLB creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience. It is against the principles of the DVR and that's why it wasn't a priority for D* to keep it.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Sure, happy to oblige.
> 
> The fact that the second tuner is there and buffering when DLB is present makes you very aware of that fact. Makes you not only have to decide what program you want to watch right now, but also cognizent of the second tuner and what _it's _tuned to. More often than not, it's causing you to pay attention to it and tune it to something you _might _want to see. That's stressful, confusing, and de-focusing.


As I posted earlier, I've never been frustrated deciding what to watch while using DLB.

I have been mildly frustrated without it. I have to be admit that is very rare.

The only evidence I've seen as it relates are some friends who used to have DLB and now don't. Every one...yes all 4 of them...hate the fact they can't use DLB anymore (five if you count me).

I guess that is in direct contradiction to your theory but I'll keep and open mind and if I find someone that fits this scenario....



boltjames said:


> The goal of a DVR is to allow you to watch one program live while recording another and/or to record programs while you're not in front of the TV. It's goal is to record, organize, and store these programs. Nowhere in the DVR's DNA does it say that it should be used for Superjump. "DLB" sounds really official. Sounds like it's part of the DVR's DNA. It's not "Dual Live Buffer". It's Superjump. Takes that ol' jump button from your 1975 Magnavox black and white and puts it on steriods.
> 
> Most importantly, hopping around between two tuners and rewinding/pausing both of them is the exact opposite purpose of the DVR. The DVR is designed to allow you to not worry about the second program because you have the ability to just record it. DLB encourages you to watch two shows simultaneously. That's not what the DVR is about at all.
> 
> The bottom line is that a DVR is not about watching live TV or enhancing live TV. It's about _recording _TV. Huge difference. It's about creating a worry-free, time-free experience out of watching television. DLB creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience. It is against the principles of the DVR and that's why it wasn't a priority for D* to keep it.
> 
> BJ


Can you help me out with this one?

I have manuals/quick start guides/info brochures (.pdf's) for every major DVR and they all have a lot more features than just the ability to watch one show while recording another....including DLB(the non-Directv). Which, BTW, is never called Dual Live Buffers. So your are correct in that most people don't know what it's called...because they don't have to to be able to use it.

Every DVR, including Directv's, is jam packed with features. This either means everyone of them, including Directv, have no clue what the purpose of a DVR is or this would indicate that your theory about the goal of a DVR is incorrect...

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

There is no more reason to stress over the user of DLB than there is to stress over how the DVR magically records two channels at the same time. It just does it - you don't have to think about it to use it ever. Using stress as an argument against DLB is illogical.


----------



## Kheldar

Drew2k said:


> There is no more reason to stress over the user of DLB than there is to stress over how the DVR magically records two channels at the same time. It just does it - you don't have to think about it to use it ever. Using stress as an argument against DLB is illogical.


I have now diagnosed *boltjames* as having Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy: he is fabricating a disease ("stress" caused by DLB) in order to gain attention by "fixing" the "problem".

Like the typical "Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy" sufferer, they slowly cause, or convince people they have, a disease so they can "come to the rescue" in a public way to claim credit for fixing the problem.

BJ is working to "fix" the "stress" he imagines that DLB-lovers are suffering, so he can publicly claim he "fixed" the problem (either by D* finally launching DLB or convincing thread posters that DLB isn't necessary).

Unfortunately for BJ, the only way to "fix" his need to "fix" us usually involves a straight jacket and rubber room.


----------



## James Long

:backtotop DLB (Not each other)


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> Can you help me out with this one?
> 
> Every DVR, including Directv's, is jam packed with features. This either means everyone of them, including Directv, have no clue what the purpose of a DVR is or this would indicate that your theory about the goal of a DVR is incorrect...
> 
> Mike


DLB is a happy accident that occurs as an unintended byproduct of one of the DVR's most important features.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches another. DLB is not its intended objective. Its not constructed with this "feature" in mind. Some engineer way back when decided that this accidental byproduct is a "C" level function and made a small mention of it in an owners manual to make something out of nothing. Marketers do this all the time. On a DVR with two tuners and two buffers, wow, you can toggle between them. Let's have a parade. No one buys a DVR with this in mind. It's not important. It's not a deal breaker. If it were, you wouldn't own an HR20.

Again D*, and now you yourself, make my case for me. If it's not important enough for D* to retain on its own properietary DVR, if it's not important enough for the public at large to complain over, and if it's not even important enough for it's most fierce defenders to walk from D* over, it's just not important.

I've been listening to this stuff for years. First on Tivo forums, now on DBS. Lots of passion, lots of begging, lots of complaining, and lots of supposedly disgruntled people still paying D* the $89 a month because DLB really isn't important enough to quit and jump to cable over. Deep down inside, when you're alone, when the lights are out and you're in bed with only your thoughts, you know what I'm talking about.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Kheldar said:


> I have now diagnosed *boltjames* as having Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy: he is fabricating a disease ("stress" caused by DLB) in order to gain attention by "fixing" the "problem".
> 
> Like the typical "Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy" sufferer, they slowly cause, or convince people they have, a disease so they can "come to the rescue" in a public way to claim credit for fixing the problem.
> 
> BJ is working to "fix" the "stress" he imagines that DLB-lovers are suffering, so he can publicly claim he "fixed" the problem (either by D* finally launching DLB or convincing thread posters that DLB isn't necessary).
> 
> Unfortunately for BJ, the only way to "fix" his need to "fix" us usually involves a straight jacket and rubber room.


Look, I appreciate the humor, but I'm not trying to fix anyone. I'm merely voicing my thoughts on Dual Live Buffers. Not trying to convince people they don't need it; trying to explain perhaps why D* has decided not to move forward with it. Because, just maybe, it's not something that belongs on a DVR. The "jump" feature was something important in 1985 when Madonna was the bomb and cable TV's were controlled by internal tuners with no guide. "Jump" got you back to your previous channel or let you hop between two shows at once because there was no other option. No guide for navigation, no record for future watching.

It's 23 years later and we have a guide for finding programs in the future and we have recording capability to aleviate the need for all that "jumping".

That is all.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches another from the live buffer.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record two shows while the user watches another from the playlist.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record no shows while the user watches one from the playlist.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches nothing.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record two shows while the user watches nothing.

Dual Tuners allow the DVR to buffer the live tuner while the user watches another program fro the Playlist.

Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to record one or two shows while the user watches another program form the Playlist.

Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to record one or two shows tuners while the user watches nothing.

Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to buffer two live tuners while the user watches another program form the Playlist.

Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to buffer one live tuner while the other tuner is recording and the user watches another program form the Playlist.

Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to behave just like a non-DLB-enabled DVR if the user chooses to treat the DVR that way.

Users have free-will and can choose to use all features in their DLB-enabled DVR or only the minimum features of their DLB-enabled DVR.

If the user is not interested in buffering dual-tuners, the user is not forced to on a DLB-enabled DVR.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches another from the live buffer.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record two shows while the user watches another from the playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record no shows while the user watches one from the playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches nothing.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record two shows while the user watches nothing.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to buffer the live tuner while the user watches another program fro the Playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to record one or two shows while the user watches another program form the Playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to record one or two shows tuners while the user watches nothing.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to buffer two live tuners while the user watches another program form the Playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to buffer one live tuner while the other tuner is recording and the user watches another program form the Playlist.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow a DLB-enabled DVR to behave just like a non-DLB-enabled DVR if the user chooses to treat the DVR that way.
> 
> Users have free-will and can choose to use all features in their DLB-enabled DVR or only the minimum features of their DLB-enabled DVR.
> 
> If the user is not interested in buffering dual-tuners, the user is not forced to on a DLB-enabled DVR.


See how confusing that is?

BJ


----------



## Tom Robertson

Not for me...


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> See how confusing that is?
> 
> BJ


Nope.

The first half of my post is about a DVR without DLB.

The second half is about a DVR with DLB.

There is no greater complexity in the second half then the first if the user has no desire to use DLB.

*I'd much rather have a DVR with DLB and have the choice of using it or not, than having a DVR wihtout DLB and having no choice at all.*


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> Sorry, BJ, but you bring this on yourself. If you brought any sort of logical argument to the discussion then people wouldn't get so irritated by your posts. One of your arguments against DLB is that you just can't deal with the stress of having to maintain a channel on both tuners worth watching, yet yesterday you indicated that you were able to successfully use the 'DLB workaround' to record two shows that you then 'buffer hopped' between. That alone refutes any arguments you've made against DLB since YOU are now USING the workaround feature.
> 
> I'm sure you'll ignore my post just as you seem to with Drew2k and his 'TLTs' (Tricky Logic Traps).


What I did between the Masters and the Rangers was not some "DLB workaround". I was not simultaneously watching two programs with back/forth buffers for each. I was watching a live broadcast and cutting over to a previously recorded show while losing a few minutes here and there as I cut away from the live Masters to the recorded Rangers.

There are maybe 5 times a year that this type of situation occurs. Instead of using the "jump" button without hitting record, I just hit record to ensure that if I chose to dwell for 20 straight minutes on the Masters that I could go into the Playlist and watch the Rangers in their recorded entirety. This is SLB+R. Single Live Buffer+Record. This is no workaround. It's how DVR's work. Watch one thing live, watch the other thing delayed and recorded. When the Masters cut to commercial, I "jumped" and watched the Rangers buffered. And this was a simple 20 minute situation, not a way of life. The 5 times a year that I need to watch two things within proximity of each other, SLB+R is right where I need it. That's why most of us don't miss DLB. We never used it like you did. Didn't watch two 30 minute sitcoms at the same time, compressing commercials and playing beat-the-clock against the buffer limit. Weren't lazy enough to not hit "record" and let the second buffer do the not-so-heavy lifting for watching later.

There's a record button that's the answer to your dreams. Use it.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> Nope.
> 
> The first half of my post is about a DVR without DLB.
> 
> The second half is about a DVR with DLB.
> 
> There is no greater complexity in the second half then the first if the user has no desire to use DLB.
> 
> I'd much rather have a DVR with DLB and have the choice of using it or not, than having a DVR wihtout DLB and having no choice at all.


The only significant difference between the two lists is "the ability to buffer two shows, jump between them without content loss, and navigate forward/backward at will within the buffer time limit and without having to hit Record". Everything else is equal. I do not argue the parts that are equal. I argue this part. This part is not a core competancy of a DVR. It's contrary to it.

If two shows are airing that are so important to watch, just record them. You'll say you want the freedom to watch both simultaneously. I'll say you should watch them sequentially. You've lost the ability to jump between two live shows and have a buffered backup, but you can still jump between shows. Similarly, you've lost the ability to not have to hit 'record' for both shows, but you still can retain both shows in their entirety. As such, you haven't lost DLB. You've merely been inconvenienced with some extra button presses. And in exchange for this, you've gotten 80 incremental HD channels and a more useful single buffer that's triple in size. You've won here, not lost.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

Who is the arbiter of "core competency of a DVR"? 

TiVo?
Motorola?
Echostar?
Scientific Atlanta?
DIRECTV?

Four out of the five DVR manufacturers above have DLB in their DVRs, described in their documentation, used in their promotional materials.

DIRECTV even marketed DLB when it promoted the HDVR2 and HR10-250 DVRs - the DVRs with TiVo Service.

SLB involves buffering a single tuner and the presence of DLB permits users to record the current program on the channel currently tuned to, even if the program is already in progress.

DLB extends that functionality to the second tuner in the DVR and as such is indeed core DVR functionality.

It is illogical to think the act of recording any number of live tuners to a rolling buffers is not core DVR functionality. It's RECORDING - it's what a DVR does.


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> Deep down inside, when you're alone, when the lights are out and you're in bed with only your thoughts, you know what I'm talking about.


Trust me ... when the lights are out and we're in bed we're *not* thinking about you!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> DLB is a happy accident that occurs as an unintended byproduct of one of the DVR's most important features.
> 
> Dual Tuners allow the DVR to record one show while the user watches another. DLB is not its intended objective. Its not constructed with this "feature" in mind. Some engineer way back when decided that this accidental byproduct is a "C" level function and made a small mention of it in an owners manual to make something out of nothing. Marketers do this all the time. On a DVR with two tuners and two buffers, wow, you can toggle between them. Let's have a parade. No one buys a DVR with this in mind. It's not important. It's not a deal breaker. If it were, you wouldn't own an HR20.
> 
> Again D*, and now you yourself, make my case for me. If it's not important enough for D* to retain on its own properietary DVR, if it's not important enough for the public at large to complain over, and if it's not even important enough for it's most fierce defenders to walk from D* over, it's just not important.
> 
> I've been listening to this stuff for years. First on Tivo forums, now on DBS. Lots of passion, lots of begging, lots of complaining, and lots of supposedly disgruntled people still paying D* the $89 a month because DLB really isn't important enough to quit and jump to cable over.
> 
> BJ


You may be right that DLB wasn't the initial objective....autos weren't originally intended to have a radio and a heating system but it made sense to add them...

However, the functionality for DLB doesn't exist on it's own. Some user didn't just happen upon it.

It had to be intentionally configured and programmed to allow access to the second tuner.

Go take a look at the archives for some of the TiVo forums at around the 2001/2002 time frame.

Search the archives and you find quite a few threads showing it was NOT an accident.

The ability to access the second tuner was intended and IIRC much delayed.



boltjames said:


> Deep down inside, when you're alone, when the lights are out and you're in bed with only your thoughts, you know what I'm talking about.


As far as that goes, you couldn't be further from the truth. I don't think about it much at all outside this forum and I keep asking you questions, because your arguments are confusing and I'm really trying to understand.

BTW, your post didn't anwser the question you were replying to. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> See how confusing that is?
> 
> BJ


I don't find it confusing at all.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> What I did between the Masters and the Rangers was not some "DLB workaround". ...


I'm pretty sure is is the DLB workaround.

See post #1 in this thread.

That's exactly what you were doing.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> ...If two shows are airing that are so important to watch, just record them. ...
> BJ


Why go through the extra steps if you don't have to?

Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

MicroBeta said:


> Why go through the extra steps if you don't have to?
> 
> Mike


Because fewer steps is too confusing, apparently...


----------



## cdc101

boltjames said:


> See how confusing that is?
> 
> BJ


I thought that was an exceptionally clear (and very thorough!) explanation.


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> See how confusing that is?
> 
> BJ


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> What I did between the Masters and the Rangers was not some "DLB workaround".
> 
> BJ


So either you are a hypocrite, or you are delusional -- which is it?


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> We never used it like you did. Didn't watch two 30 minute sitcoms at the same time, compressing commercials and playing beat-the-clock against the buffer limit. Weren't lazy enough to not hit "record" and let the second buffer do the not-so-heavy lifting for watching later.
> 
> There's a record button that's the answer to your dreams. Use it.
> 
> BJ


First, please don't insinuate that I'm 'lazy' because I don't want to hit the record button. If you want to start making presumptions about people, my first thought about you would be that your archaic, illogical thoughts about how a DVR should be used are ridiculous. I'm shocked you've even embraced HD, let alone the switch to MPEG4 by DirecTV. If you had your way, DirecTV's DVR would consist of a hard drive, one tuner, and a remote control with one button, 'Record'. That was my first thought, however after reading that you post at Bimmerfest and seeing that you own a BMW 328i convertible, I'm inclined to believe that you have absolutely NO clue what 'Mr. and Mrs. Camry' want in a DVR. For the record, I own a Camry and I WANT DLB.

Second, my guess is that your sole point of posting in this thread is because you love finding the hot button issue at forums and then proceed to beat the issue to death by 'poking the bear' as the saying goes. I'm guessing its for one of two reasons, either you're a complete narcissist and everything needs to be about you or you do it for the 'troll' factor.

Third, with the vast, vast majority of the competition in the market having DLB on their boxes, I'm very certain that at some point DirecTV is going to have to 'bite-the-bullet' and add DLB. Once their competition begins adding HD content, hardware and the features included in the software will again become a major factor in 'Mr. and Mrs. Camry's' TV provider decision. Again, I CAN speak for Mr. Camry because I own one.


----------



## boltjames

tiger2005 said:


> For the record, I own a Camry and I WANT DLB.


Because you drive a Camry, I can no longer talk to you.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> So either you are a hypocrite, or you are delusional -- which is it?


I'm both, for sure. But hitting "record" for the show that's secondary while you're watching another show live isn't "the DLB workaround". It's "using your DVR". Watch one, record another.

The benefit to hitting "record" is that you can a) watch the secondary show at a later time or b) watch the secondary show and have a buffer on that tuner. It's not DLB as the buffer isn't there for the first show as you're recording only the second.

This isn't "DLB". The first tuner is not in a buffer. The second one is.

I've never read what "the DLB workaround" is because it doesn't matter to me. But if what I'm describing is "the DLB workaround" then the delusions run both ways.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

Tom Robertson said:


> Because fewer steps is too confusing, apparently...


Come on.....that one liner was pretty damned funny. "See how confusing that is?" LOL. Even made _me _laugh.

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> What I did between the Masters and the Rangers was not some "DLB workaround". I was not simultaneously watching two programs with back/forth buffers for each. I was watching a live broadcast and cutting over to a previously recorded show while losing a few minutes here and there as I cut away from the live Masters to the recorded Rangers.
> 
> There are maybe 5 times a year that this type of situation occurs. Instead of using the "jump" button without hitting record, I just hit record to ensure that if I chose to dwell for 20 straight minutes on the Masters that I could go into the Playlist and watch the Rangers in their recorded entirety. This is SLB+R. Single Live Buffer+Record. This is no workaround. It's how DVR's work. Watch one thing live, watch the other thing delayed and recorded. When the Masters cut to commercial, I "jumped" and watched the Rangers buffered. And this was a simple 20 minute situation, not a way of life. The 5 times a year that I need to watch two things within proximity of each other, SLB+R is right where I need it. That's why most of us don't miss DLB. We never used it like you did. Didn't watch two 30 minute sitcoms at the same time, compressing commercials and playing beat-the-clock against the buffer limit. Weren't lazy enough to not hit "record" and let the second buffer do the not-so-heavy lifting for watching later.
> 
> There's a record button that's the answer to your dreams. Use it.
> 
> BJ


Amazing. You use the feature and then debate its name.

Maybe the rest of us want to use our DVR like you did more than 5 times a year. Maybe we want to do it daily with DLB to get the most out of our sports subscriptions. You know what they are correct? The packages that bring in the lots of money for DirecTV?


----------



## ub1934

*[/B Still want them & need them :lol:*


----------



## boltjames

Dr. Booda said:


> Amazing. You use the feature and then debate its name.
> 
> Maybe the rest of us want to use our DVR like you did more than 5 times a year. Maybe we want to do it daily with DLB to get the most out of our sports subscriptions. You know what they are correct? The packages that bring in the lots of money for DirecTV?


When I want to watch one program and delay the viewing of another until after the first program is over, I hit the record button for the secondary program.

When I want to watch two events simultaneously for a few minutes, I hit the jump button.

When I want to watch two events simultaneously for a few minutes and absolutely don't want to miss a minute of one of those programs, I hit the record button for the secondary program.

I never, ever, record both programs and then hop between them using FF/REW on both while both are in progress. To me, that's what "the DLB workaround" is about. Buffering both while recording both.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> When I want to watch one program and delay the viewing of another until after the first program is over, I hit the record button for the secondary program.
> 
> When I want to watch two events simultaneously for a few minutes, I hit the jump button.
> 
> When I want to watch two events simultaneously for a few minutes and absolutely don't want to miss a minute of one of those programs, I hit the record button for the secondary program.
> 
> I never, ever, record both programs and then hop between them using FF/REW on both while both are in progress. To me, that's what "the DLB workaround" is about. Buffering both while recording both.
> 
> BJ


The DLB workaround is recording one show playing it from the playlist and back to live TV.

You can then just pause live TV and hit the PrevCh button to swap between the recording and live TV any time you want.

You can see how this is similar enough to what you were doing that we call it the workaround.

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

boltjames said:


> The bottom line is that a DVR is not about watching live TV or enhancing live TV. It's about _recording _TV. BJ


I think you're kind of missing the point here. Of course the whole point of a DVR is so you don't have to watch live TV. A DVR would be kind of pointless any other way. So it's not really a valid argument. Who needs something to enhance live TV? What even are the options for enhancing live TV? Subtitles? Spoken languages? 3D conversion? (ok, don't think that last one is available yet, unless it's the special "X" feature that's been holding up our DLB, then I might forgive D*)

Two things I notice you arguing the most, is saying that it's all about recording TV, either on one or both tuners, yada, yada, yada, but you fail to post anything worth mentioning about how important the machine is for it's playback features. Without the playback functions, it's just a glorified VCR. Pause, fast forward, slow-mo, 30skip/skip, jump back, etc. Without the playback interface DVR's probably wouldn't be as marketable as they are. DLB is very much a function of playback.

The other is how you perceive everyone you disagree with as disappointed with the HR2*, just because it lacks DLB. I am quite happy with it. In fact I'm so happy with it that for of all the things it has, I only see it falling short because of the DLB issue, so that's why I'm focusing my attention to it. Nothing else to complain about. Hell, I'm not even really complaining about the lack of DLB. Sure, I wish it was there, but I don't have any real alternative. No cable or over-air options, and the DISH birds are hidden from view at my location. So short of watching MPEG2 channels or no TV at all, I'm stuck with the HR20.



boltjames said:


> DLB creates a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience. BJ


Do you really expect us to buy that? It freaks you out so much because you have to fiddle with what is on the 2nd buffer? Don't use it. It's a transparent function. If knowing it's there and you still can't avoid the worrisome feelings, I'm thinking that you may have a phobia or some sort of OCD issue. Maybe you should seek professional help. I'm sure looking for help here won't help much. [just throwing that out there]



boltjames said:


> It is against the principles of the DVR and that's why it wasn't a priority for D* to keep it.
> BJ


 [your opinion, and not a very good or convincing argument at that]

I think maybe, just maybe, that your definition of what a DVR is and what you think it should do is quite different from what the majority of users think. You're certainly entitled to your opinions, as long as you state them as such, and quit trying to pass them off as fact.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## ATARI

Dr. Booda said:


> ...like you did more than 5 times a year. Maybe we want to do it daily...


In my dreams...

wait...

what is this thread about again?


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> The DLB workaround is recording one show playing it from the playlist and back to live TV.
> 
> You can then just pause live TV and hit the PrevCh button to swap between the recording and live TV any time you want.
> 
> You can see how this is similar enough to what you were doing that we call it the workaround.
> 
> Mike


Well then, DLB _does _exist on the HR20 and everything is fine, we can kiss and make up, thread can be closed. Because it seems that all we're discussing now is a few extra button presses? That's what this is all about? The poll, the angst, all because pushing the 'record' button is harder than hitting 'down'?

BJ


----------



## Dr. Booda

ATARI said:


> In my dreams...
> 
> wait...
> 
> what is this thread about again?


:lol:


----------



## ka7gzr

I would think that this polls outcome is obvious given there are no consequences in the choices listed. The consequences are important and would affect my vote. The question is what am I trading for this feature? Cost? Processor speed? Time to market of other features and what are those features? Stability? etc.
I voted for DLB given no other consequences which I don't believe is true.
Jim


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> Well then, DLB _does _exist on the HR20 and everything is fine, we can kiss and make up, thread can be closed. Because it seems that all we're discussing now is a few extra button presses? That's what this is all about? The poll, the angst, all because pushing the 'record' button is harder than hitting 'down'?
> 
> BJ


Yes, it is more difficult because you then have to go back into the playlist and delete the "buffered" material afterwards. When viewing the MLBEI package, I would like to watch portions of as many games as possible. I can't record them all, but I would like to anchor one for a few innings while bouncing around to the rest. Of course to do this without DLB entails having to record maybe ten different portions of games a day and then eliminating all of those recordings afterwards (a PITA). With DLB it's trivial; anchor one game and use the other tuner to bounce around. When the anchored game is out of hand, switch to another anchor. Simple and non-stressful.


----------



## Drew2k

What is DLB? Perhaps it's time for Boltjames and anyone else unfamiliar with the top of this thread to brush up on the topic, starting with Post 1, where DLB is defined. Then proceed to the post on Page 1 describing the DLB workaround.

To be on page 58 of this thread and not understand what DLB is or to claim to not know about the DLB workaround smacks of a disregard for all other forum members who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with the issues before posting in this thread.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> What is DLB? Perhaps it's time for Boltjames and anyone else unfamiliar with the top of this thread to brush up on the topic, starting with Post 1, where DLB is defined. Then proceed to the post on Page 1 describing the DLB workaround.
> 
> To be on page 58 of this thread and not understand what DLB is or to claim to not know about the DLB workaround smacks of a disregard for all other forum members who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with the issues before posting in this thread.


Here's one of the quotes from Post #3:

*To summarize the arguments of those who did not express that dual live buffers were a critical need:

Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer: I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.*

What am I missing again?

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Here's one of the quotes from Post #3:
> 
> *To summarize the arguments of those who did not express that dual live buffers were a critical need:
> 
> Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer: I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.*
> 
> What am I missing again?
> 
> BJ


If that's the only post you want to consider, then you're not missing anything.

However, if you read the posts of why others think it's important then you're missing alot.

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> If that's the only post you want to consider, then you're not missing anything.
> 
> However, if you read the posts of why others think it's important then you're missing alot.
> 
> Mike


I read all the other posts and I'm up to speed on the issue. Drew is trying another tricky tactic to catch me in some sort of trap, so I'm forced to defend the fact that recording one program while watching another live and occassionally using the 'jump' button to check in on the recording program is, well, normal DVR behavior. I'm not recording both or getting a buffer for both. One is buffered, the other is dumped when I jump. That's not DUAL Live Buffer or even a Single Live Buffer. That's a _Recording_.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> I read all the other posts and I'm up to speed on the issue. Drew is trying another tricky tactic to catch me in some sort of trap, so I'm forced to defend the fact that recording one program while watching another live and occassionally using the 'jump' button to check in on the recording program is, well, normal DVR behavior. I'm not recording both or getting a buffer for both. One is buffered, *the other is dumped when I jump*. That's not DUAL Live Buffer or even a Single Live Buffer. That's a _Recording_.
> 
> BJ


I don't understand.

When I do it (after the setup), I just press the previous channel button to swap between the recording and live TV. Doing this I never lose the live buffer and can even pause live TV.

What is dumped and what is the jump button? Do you mean the previous channel button?

It takes some setup prior to and cleanup afterward but it's adequate for occasional use.

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> When I do it (after the setup), I just press the previous channel button to swap between the recording and live TV. Doing this I never lose the live buffer and can even pause live TV.
> 
> What is dumped and what is the jump button? Do you mean the previous channel button?
> 
> It takes some setup prior to and cleanup afterward but it's adequate for occasional use.
> 
> Mike


What I did the other day:

1. Was watching the Masters, hoping it would finish before the NHL playoff game.

2. Went to Guide and navigated to MSG-HD, watched a bit, hit Record, started to record Ranger game at 7:05pm.

3. Hit Previous to jump back to Masters.

4. After a few minutes, hit Previous to get back to Ranger game. Saw the red progress bar, knew it was recording. Watched for a half a minute.

5. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the Masters, progress bar reset to zero.

6. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the recording Rangers game. Was in a commercial. Hit REW to go back a few seconds to get the score before the commercial break.

Since I was only able to REW/FF on the recording Rangers game and not the live Masters, I assumed that this is not a workaround for DUAL buffers. Had I recorded both programs, different story. Did I do something wrong that would have allowed me to buffer both while recording only one? Would hitting "Pause" on the Masters have been the solution?

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> What I did the other day:
> 
> 1. Was watching the Masters, hoping it would finish before the NHL playoff game.
> 
> 2. Went to Guide and navigated to MSG-HD, watched a bit, hit Record, started to record Ranger game at 7:05pm.
> 
> 3. Hit Previous to jump back to Masters.
> 
> 4. After a few minutes, hit Previous to get back to Ranger game. Saw the red progress bar, knew it was recording. Watched for a half a minute.
> 
> 5. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the Masters, progress bar reset to zero.
> 
> 6. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the recording Rangers game. Was in a commercial. Hit REW to go back a few seconds to get the score before the commercial break.
> 
> Since I was only able to REW/FF on the recording Rangers game and not the live Masters, I assumed that this is not a workaround for DUAL buffers. Had I recorded both programs, different story. Did I do something wrong that would have allowed me to buffer both while recording only one? Would hitting "Pause" on the Masters have been the solution?
> 
> BJ


Start recording the Rangers game from the guide while still watching the Masters.

Pause the Masters and go to the Playlist and play the Rangers game.

Hit Previous channel button and it will go back to the Masters at the point you paused.

Pause the Masters & hit PrevCh to go back to the Rangers game.

Mike


----------



## raw121

boltjames said:


> What I did the other day:
> 
> 1. Was watching the Masters, hoping it would finish before the NHL playoff game.
> 
> 2. Went to Guide and navigated to MSG-HD, watched a bit, hit Record, started to record Ranger game at 7:05pm.
> 
> 3. Hit Previous to jump back to Masters.
> 
> 4. After a few minutes, hit Previous to get back to Ranger game. Saw the red progress bar, knew it was recording. Watched for a half a minute.
> 
> 5. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the Masters, progress bar reset to zero.
> 
> 6. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the recording Rangers game. Was in a commercial. Hit REW to go back a few seconds to get the score before the commercial break.
> 
> Since I was only able to REW/FF on the recording Rangers game and not the live Masters, I assumed that this is not a workaround for DUAL buffers. Had I recorded both programs, different story. Did I do something wrong that would have allowed me to buffer both while recording only one? Would hitting "Pause" on the Masters have been the solution?
> 
> BJ


For this to be the workaround you would have had to have gone to the List and selected to play the rangers game from there between steps 3 and 4. What you did was, almost, use DLB. The only thing that stopped that from happening was that you were losing the buffer of the Masters. See they are not that far away from implementing DLB  And you were trying to use it.


----------



## boltjames

raw121 said:


> For this to be the workaround you would have had to have gone to the List and selected to play the rangers game from there. What you did was, almost, use DLB. The only thing that stopped that from happening was that you were losing the buffer of the Masters. See they are not that far away from implementing DLB


In other words, DLB is already available on the HR20. It just takes a few extra button presses and a delete from the Playlist when you're done. While I can understand that that's a bit messy, someone who really wants two buffers for two live programs to watch simultaneously has that option fully available on the HR20.

Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there. Trying to think of an analogy. Something that summarizes the feeling when someone's been searching endlessly for something from the past and then realizes that he's got it already. Trying to get back to what he's lost only to find it's been there with him the whole time. It'll come to me. Give me some time to come up with something.

BJ


----------



## raw121

boltjames said:


> In other words, DLB is already available on the HR20. It just takes a few extra button presses and a delete from the Playlist when you're done. While I can understand that that's a bit messy, someone who really wants two buffers for two live programs to watch simultaneously has that option fully available on the HR20.
> 
> Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there. Trying to think of an analogy. Something that summarizes the feeling when someone's been searching endlessly for something from the past and then realizes that he's got it already. Trying to get back to what he's lost only to find it's been there with him the whole time. It'll come to me. Give me some time to come up with something.
> 
> BJ


Where did I ever say that is available? I said what you WANTED to do was DLB and you ALMOST had it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> ...
> Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there. Trying to think of an analogy. Something that summarizes the feeling when someone's been searching endlessly for something from the past and then realizes that he's got it already. Trying to get back to what he's lost only to find it's been there with him the whole time. It'll come to me. Give me some time to come up with something.
> ...
> BJ


The idea to have direct access the background tuner.

I don't want to have to setup prior and cleanup after.

I want to press a button and be on the opposite tuner. 

It's not there. Thus the reason it's called a workaround. 

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

True DLB is not available on the HR2X series DVR.

True DLB does not require a user to manually record one or two programs to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.

True DLB does not require a user to verify free space is available to temporarily record one or two programs simply to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.

True DLB does not require a user to review the To Do List in advance to ensure there are no conflicts with the temporary recordings that need to be made simply to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.

True DLB does not require a user to go through remote gymnastics, pressing RECORD, changing channels, pressing PAUSE, pressing LIST, and pressing PAUSE to toggle between the temporary recording and the live buffer and preserve the buffer.

True DLB simply monitors and maintains two buffers independently, works regardless of the free space currently available in a user's Playlist, preserves the buffers up to the time that the DVR needs to change channels for a scheduled recording and alerts the user to that fact, and requires a simple key press (for example, DOWN ARROW) to switch between buffers.

True DLB is not available on the HR2X series DVR.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> True DLB is not available on the HR2X series DVR.
> 
> True DLB does not require a user to manually record one or two programs to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.
> 
> True DLB does not require a user to verify free space is available to temporarily record one or two programs simply to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.
> 
> True DLB does not require a user to review the To Do List in advance to ensure there are no conflicts with the temporary recordings that need to be made simply to view, pause, and retain the live buffer on two channels.
> 
> True DLB does not require a user to go through remote gymnastics, pressing RECORD, changing channels, pressing PAUSE, pressing LIST, and pressing PAUSE to toggle between the temporary recording and the live buffer and preserve the buffer.
> 
> True DLB simply monitors and maintains two buffers independently, works regardless of the free space currently available in a user's Playlist, preserves the buffers up to the time that the DVR needs to change channels for a scheduled recording and alerts the user to that fact, and requires a simple key press (for example, DOWN ARROW) to switch between buffers.
> 
> True DLB is not available on the HR2X series DVR.


Well said. 

Except that "not available" part....not that you posted it....the fact that it's true...

Mike


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> In other words, DLB is already available on the HR20. It just takes a few extra button presses and a delete from the Playlist when you're done. While I can understand that that's a bit messy, someone who really wants two buffers for two live programs to watch simultaneously has that option fully available on the HR20.
> 
> Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there.
> 
> BJ


DLB isn't already there, the workaround is. Also, the workaround wasn't there until the end of last year, so the original DLB thread was justified. The workaround is way too messy to use if one bounces around tens of times a day, so I want DLB to eliminate all of that stress.


----------



## Flyrx7

boltjames said:


> What I did the other day:
> 
> 1. Was watching the Masters, hoping it would finish before the NHL playoff game.
> 
> 2. Went to Guide and navigated to MSG-HD, watched a bit, hit Record, started to record Ranger game at 7:05pm.
> 
> 3. Hit Previous to jump back to Masters.
> 
> 4. After a few minutes, hit Previous to get back to Ranger game. Saw the red progress bar, knew it was recording. Watched for a half a minute.
> 
> 5. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the Masters, progress bar reset to zero.
> 
> 6. Hit Previous again. Took me back to the recording Rangers game. Was in a commercial. Hit REW to go back a few seconds to get the score before the commercial break.
> 
> BJ


WOW! I'm impressed! All that work and it didn't freak you out or "create a hassled, worrisome, time-spastic experience"?  
At least you're entertaining :lol:

With DLB you could have saved about 4 steps, but that probably would have put you over the edge, huh?



Frank


----------



## dennisj00

Flyrx7 said:


> With DLB you could have saved about 4 steps, but that probably would have put you over the edge, huh?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 4 steps is a minimum, if you're trying to catch several bits of several shows or your show runs over, it becomes quite a pain. And one wrong button and the live buffer is gone.
> 
> But the REAL AMAZING part is, it's taken BJ THOUSANDS of posts in two threads to almost understand what DLB is! Maybe he does drive a CAMRY!! And something that he's fervently against anyone having! No wonder he's so stressed.
> 
> Again, just give us the down arrow to switch between tuners (even with a smaller second buffer) and simplify BJ's and all of our lives like every other modern DVR!


----------



## tiger2005

boltjames said:


> Well then, DLB _does _exist on the HR20 and everything is fine, we can kiss and make up, thread can be closed. Because it seems that all we're discussing now is a few extra button presses? That's what this is all about? The poll, the angst, all because pushing the 'record' button is harder than hitting 'down'?
> 
> BJ





boltjames said:


> In other words, DLB is already available on the HR20. It just takes a few extra button presses and a delete from the Playlist when you're done. While I can understand that that's a bit messy, someone who really wants two buffers for two live programs to watch simultaneously has that option fully available on the HR20.
> 
> Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there. Trying to think of an analogy. Something that summarizes the feeling when someone's been searching endlessly for something from the past and then realizes that he's got it already. Trying to get back to what he's lost only to find it's been there with him the whole time. It'll come to me. Give me some time to come up with something.
> 
> BJ


Honestly, I think its RIDICULOUS that you've been so fervently advocating that DirecTV not develop DLB on their boxes, yet you don't even understand how DLB functions and the differences with what's currently available on the DirecTV boxes. How can you possibly take a stand so strong when you don't even research the issue enough to develop an informed opinion? :eek2:  As I said, completely RIDICULOUS. What little credibility you had left is totally gone.


----------



## anubys

tiger2005 said:


> ... What little credibility you had left is totally gone.


wait a second...you still gave him a little credibility until NOW? :lol:

seriously...BJ serves a very important function...DLB would not even be a topic without him...you should appreciate that...

funny, I want DLB for the NFL ST...now that I have an HR20 and an HR21 side by side in my media room, DLB is not that critical anymore unless there are 5 games I need to watch at the same time...


----------



## ATARI

anubys said:


> ...now that I have an HR20 and an HR21...


You might want to update your .sig


----------



## anubys

ATARI said:


> You might want to update your .sig


oopsie!

done


----------



## christo76

With True DLB I wouldn't have missed the end of my Brewers game that ran a bit long. I used the workaround but unless you also had the multiple steps it takes to add extra time to every recording, you can't be sure you will get it all.

With true DLB it is recording the channel constantly, not just the timeslot.

Even the old fix I found over a year ago, where if you find your recording ended early, you can go into the guide and hit record on the current show, and it managed to record everything since the last show ended... no longer seems to work. Apparantly D* "fixed" that "bug".

The only way I could have saved it now is if I left in on that same channel and was only flipping between my recorded game and a previously recorded show.


----------



## christo76

boltjames said:


> In other words, DLB is already available on the HR20. It just takes a few extra button presses and a delete from the Playlist when you're done. While I can understand that that's a bit messy, someone who really wants two buffers for two live programs to watch simultaneously has that option fully available on the HR20.
> 
> Can't believe we've got a poll, multiple threads, and thousands of posts debating a feature that's already there. Trying to think of an analogy. Something that summarizes the feeling when someone's been searching endlessly for something from the past and then realizes that he's got it already. Trying to get back to what he's lost only to find it's been there with him the whole time. It'll come to me. Give me some time to come up with something.
> 
> BJ


Actually, If it weren't for the multiple threads of enormous length, I really doubt they would have made the changes that make the workaround possible.

The fact that they did make those changes also gave more hope to alot of us, that they would continue to make changes and improvements so that eventually we would have DLB.


----------



## Capt'n

christo76 said:


> Actually, If it weren't for the multiple threads of enormous length, I really doubt they would have made the changes that make the workaround possible.
> 
> The fact that they did make those changes also gave more hope to alot of us, that they would continue to make changes and improvements so that eventually we would have DLB.


I have to agree. That alone proves someone is listening. My only fear is it could just be a lone programmer that unofficially tweaked a line a code for us. Hopefully it goes beyond one lone programmer. Either way someone thought it was important enough to spend _some_ time on it.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well, with Luck you guys will one day get DLB or maybe even TLB, just to go even one further.


----------



## inkahauts

Ok.... So I have a thought on how I think they could implement DLB and make most everyone happy, when it comes to sports events, because it would avoid any loss due to accidental key hits, etc.......

Allow people to use the prev button to switch between two recordings.. Then all anyone would have to do is tell their units to record both shows they want to, then select one to play, and then select the other to play, and then they should be able to prev between the two.... 

Ultimate tv did something very interesting.. They actually listed the playlist in the channel guide as a channel (and the show title was whatever program you were watching). What if they did this for the HR2 as well, in fact they could even give it two channels... Then there would be no need to change anything else on the machine, it would simply treat whatever program your watching as its own dedicated channel, rather than a recording...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

inkahauts said:


> Ok.... So I have a thought on how I think they could implement DLB and make most everyone happy, when it comes to sports events, because it would avoid any loss due to accidental key hits, etc.......
> 
> Allow people to use the prev button to switch between two recordings.. Then all anyone would have to do is tell their units to record both shows they want to, then select one to play, and then select the other to play, and then they should be able to prev between the two....
> 
> Ultimate tv did something very interesting.. They actually listed the playlist in the channel guide as a channel (and the show title was whatever program you were watching). What if they did this for the HR2 as well, in fact they could even give it two channels... Then there would be no need to change anything else on the machine, it would simply treat whatever program your watching as its own dedicated channel, rather than a recording...


This seems to be the current work around with a few extra steps.

However, I would like to be able to use the prev ch button to go between to recordings.

Mike


----------



## Que

GrumpyBear said:


> Well, with Luck you guys will one day get DLB or maybe even TLB, just to go even one further.


Let just get to DLB first, Heck the DVR still has a few bugs. Then we can move to TLB.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Que said:


> Let just get to DLB first, Heck the DVR still has a few bugs. Then we can move to TLB.


I want a DVR with QLB, Quad Live Buffers, with the ability to display 4 channels at once on the screen. 

But thats for another thread.


----------



## ATARI

Where did boltjames go?

No posts since Wednesday.


----------



## kanderna

ATARI said:


> Where did boltjames go?
> 
> No posts since Wednesday.


Sssssshhhhhhhhhh!!! You'll wake it up. :lol:


----------



## jheda

Hes at the mercedes dealer...:lol: :lol: :lol:



ATARI said:


> Where did boltjames go?
> 
> No posts since Wednesday.


----------



## Doug Brott

theratpatrol said:


> I want a DVR with QLB, Quad Live Buffers, with the ability to display 4 channels at once on the screen.
> 
> But thats for another thread.


Someone's already shown us how to do that 

link









Full Image


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> Someone's already shown us how to do that
> 
> link
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Full Image


I might be able to talk the wife into a setup like that...all I have to is win the Powerball...

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> I might be able to talk the wife into a setup like that...all I have to is win the Powerball...
> 
> Mike


:lol: I'd need a whole new house for something like that ..


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Oblong Desoto said:


> For me, the decision to upgrade my DBS service to HD has become a race. Whichever of the following things happens first will determine whether I stick with DirecTV or switch to Dish Network:
> 
> DirecTV adds DLB to their HD DVR's... or
> Dish catches up with DirecTV on HD channels
> I like the ViP722, but I also want Bravo/FX/SciFi/USA in HD. (PBS would be nice, too)
> 
> Until then, I'll continue watching HD via OTA or SD on my Series 2 TiVos and avoid the 24 month commitment.
> 
> -OD


SciFi and USA showed up last week, and I'm tired of waiting to get HD. So, Dish installers are coming Saturday. We'll see how it goes.

In the mean time, good luck to all of you in your quest to get DLB! 

-OD


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Oblong Desoto said:


> SciFi and USA showed up last week, and I'm tired of waiting to get HD. So, Dish installers are coming Saturday. We'll see how it goes.
> 
> In the mean time, good luck to all of you in your quest to get DLB!
> 
> -OD


The ViP722 may have DLB but I didn't realize that E* had caught up to Directv in HD.

BTW, IMHO, the fact that the Vip722 and many others, have DLB is the reason Directv will have to bring it back.

I have concluded that the HR20 & HR21 aren't going to get DLB.

However, I'll bet the next generation/incarnation/version HD DVR will have it.

It's a theory.

Mike


----------



## DBSNewbie

On all other DVRs with DLB, how many minutes long are their buffers? 

The answer to that is probably somewhere in this thread, but there are just so many pages to sift through.

If or when D* does implement DLB, keeping the existing 90 minute buffer would be a great plus to have (if possible), but I guess it would be worth the trade-off if we could get dual 45-minute buffers.


----------



## inkahauts

MicroBeta said:


> The ViP722 may have DLB but I didn't realize that E* had caught up to Directv in HD.
> 
> BTW, IMHO, the fact that the Vip722 and many others, have DLB is the reason Directv will have to bring it back.
> 
> I have concluded that the HR20 & HR21 aren't going to get DLB.
> 
> However, I'll bet the next generation/incarnation/version HD DVR will have it.
> 
> It's a theory.
> 
> Mike


I don't know why you think the current hardware won't do DLB... I still think it just not going to be implemented for some time, and frankly, I expect the next generation of units to use the same software and to have the same capabilities as the current ones...

I hope the Vip 722 isn't at some point found infringing to tivo in their lawsuit, (which could happen) and then that gets shut off... Then you'd have no LB at all...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DBSNewbie said:


> On all other DVRs with DLB, how many minutes long are their buffers?
> 
> The answer to that is probably somewhere in this thread, but there are just so many pages to sift through.
> 
> If or when D* does implement DLB, keeping the existing 90 minute buffer would be a great plus to have (if possible), but I guess it would be worth the trade-off if we could get dual 45-minute buffers.


Cox, Quick Reference guide, page 18, Motorola - 60 minutes
Cablevision Optium IO, Getting Started, page 2, Motorola - 60 minutes
ViP622, chapter 8, page 54 - 60 minutes
Att U-verse, Features Guide, page 8 - 90 minutes
TWC, Scientific Atlanta, User's Guide, front page - 60 minutes

Just a few

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

inkahauts said:


> I don't know why you think the current hardware won't do DLB... I still think it just not going to be implemented for some time, and frankly, I expect the next generation of units to use the same software and to have the same capabilities as the current ones...
> 
> I hope the Vip 722 isn't at some point found infringing to tivo in their lawsuit, (which could happen) and then that gets shut off... Then you'd have no LB at all...


I do think the current hardware will do it.

Actually, I have seen it do it.

I have recorded a show on tuner B while watching something on tuner A. Then I remembered there was something else I wanted to record right after the previous recording on tuner B.

Now, a few minutes after the recording has ended on tuner B, I go to the Guide and select the show and press record....BOOM!! it will have recorded from the end of the previous show. IOW, the background tuner(tuner B) continued to buffer after the recording was over.

Try it... as long as you don't wait too long (I've done it up to ≈10min) and haven't changed channels it will work.

However, I don't think it's in the cards for the current crop of HD-DVRs.

With all the work going on for current crop of features, IMHO, they are too far into it to add DLB. Especially since it's likely to impact most of those features.

I agree the next gen DVRs will probably be based upon the current firmeware.

However, it would be easier to implement DLB without impacting the cubic butt load of households with HR2x's.

Mike


----------



## DBSNewbie

MicroBeta said:


> Cox, Quick Reference guide, page 18, Motorola - 60 minutes
> Cablevision Optium IO, Getting Started, page 2, Motorola - 60 minutes
> ViP622, chapter 8, page 54 - 60 minutes
> Att U-verse, Features Guide, page 8 - 90 minutes
> TWC, Scientific Atlanta, User's Guide, front page - 60 minutes
> 
> Just a few
> 
> Mike


Thanks.


----------



## Que

kanderna said:


> Sssssshhhhhhhhhh!!! You'll wake it up. :lol:


I'm sure we will see 6 post in a row... or maybe not see. Unless someone quotes him.

[edit] Voters: 1337


----------



## Oblong Desoto

MicroBeta said:


> The ViP722 may have DLB but I didn't realize that E* had caught up to Directv in HD.
> 
> BTW, IMHO, the fact that the Vip722 and many others, have DLB is the reason Directv will have to bring it back.
> 
> I have concluded that the HR20 & HR21 aren't going to get DLB.
> 
> However, I'll bet the next generation/incarnation/version HD DVR will have it.
> 
> It's a theory.
> 
> Mike


E* still has a little catching-up to do, but they now have the HD channels I personally watch the most, so it became strictly a DVR choice for me. (Plus, getting free hardware without haggling with the retention reps is a bonus.)

The HR2x's could easily include a DLB feature if DirecTV chose to add it. It can already record 2 shows at once, so I cannot see how it would be difficult to program both tuners to dump to tailing temp files and implement a tuner swap sequence for the remote. Seems trivial IMO.

It's a shame I had to switch to Dish to retain the most feature-complete DVR experience for Mpeg-4 HD viewing. DirecTV could have totally OWNED the HD-DVR market by simply using the TiVo feature set (sans patented) as a starting point and building from there. 

Sorry... straying off topic now.

-OD


----------



## ajc68

theratpatrol said:


> I want a DVR with QLB, Quad Live Buffers, with the ability to display 4 channels at once on the screen.


I want that too, but right now I'm just trying to get back my duel-live buffers. I really hate it when technology goes backwards.


----------



## Jhon69

You want dual 90 minute live buffers?.Want 2 times the recording capacity?.What's the answer?. 2 HR21's on the same HDTV.


----------



## Richierich

Jhon69 said:


> You want dual 90 minute live buffers?.Want 2 times the recording capacity?.What's the answer?. 2 HR21's on the same HDTV.


Oh Yeah, and have THREE REMOTES on hand to switch between buffers and DVRs, YES that is DEFINITELY the ANSWER!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jhon69 said:


> You want dual 90 minute live buffers?.Want 2 times the recording capacity?.What's the answer?. 2 HR21's on the same HDTV.


That would work.

However, it should be in the one DVR.

I don't want another component in my cabinet. I don't want to run more cables. I don't to draw more power. I don't want another remote.

I want it all in one DVR....I can dream....

Mike


----------



## DBSNewbie

richierich said:


> Oh Yeah, and have THREE REMOTES on hand to switch between buffers and DVRs, YES that is DEFINITELY the ANSWER!!!


Or ONE UNIVERSAL REMOTE with the ability to do macros. I have six HD DVRs in the den and switching between sources and displays is as simple as a single press of a button.


----------



## Wilmo54

Just had my new HR21-100 installed today. So far so good, but still feeling things out. The shiny black exterior is nice though. Kinda hard to change when I've been using my HR10-250 for almost 3 years. 

Anyway this is a DLB thread, (btw still have the HR10-250 hooked up to the tv for the use of DLB) I was wondering if anyone using the a Harmony remote has programed the down arrow button to function as the PREV button. So it would act like using the Tivo remote to swap tuners when hitting the down arrow? Would this wipe out the down arrow totally? Or would it still function in the guide?


----------



## Lord Vader

You can easily program your Harmony to do what you want it to do. However, I've got an 880 and use the PREV button to go to last channel viewed and the DOWN arrow button to toggle between tuners on my HR10-250 (I've got HR10-250 and HR20-700s).


----------



## keyoctave

I just upgraded my service from a SD Tivo to an HR20-100. I can say that of all the things that seem good about the HR20, I really miss not having DLB's!!! The work around is not what it's about. Yes, it does help some, but DLB means NOT having to record anything. So yes, I would love it if D* sent us a software upgrade with that in it.


----------



## ATARI

See?

It's happening.

No boltjames in over a week, and this thread is dying.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well Looks like Boltjames, after doing the work around, can no longer defend D* for its lack of DLB :lol:  :lol:


----------



## vicmeldrew

ATARI said:


> See?
> 
> It's happening.
> 
> No boltjames in over a week, and this thread is dying.


it is either dying because either those folks are resigned to accept this situation or have left like me to dish to get what we need.

not worth the hassle anymore.


----------



## Oblong Desoto

vicmeldrew said:


> it is either dying because either those folks are resigned to accept this situation or have left like me to dish to get what we need.
> 
> not worth the hassle anymore.


You, too? I wonder how many others have recently switched to Dish for similar reasons.

-OD


----------



## James Long

About the same that left DISH for DirecTV because of the differences in HD lineup. 

Looking at quarterly reports BOTH providers are losing customers at what should be an alarming rate (with DirecTV actually losing more customers than DISH in 4Q2007). Fortunately both companies managed to add more customers than they lost (DirecTV adding many more than they lost).

New results should be out soon. I would not expect DLB to be a major factor in DirecTV's losing customers.


----------



## tiger2005

James Long said:


> About the same that left DISH for DirecTV because of the differences in HD lineup.
> 
> Looking at quarterly reports BOTH providers are losing customers at what should be an alarming rate (with DirecTV actually losing more customers than DISH in 4Q2007). Fortunately both companies managed to add more customers than they lost (DirecTV adding many more than they lost).
> 
> New results should be out soon. I would not expect DLB to be a major factor in DirecTV's losing customers.


I'd agree. At least at this point in time.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DBSNewbie said:


> Or ONE UNIVERSAL REMOTE with the ability to do macros. I have six HD DVRs in the den and switching between sources and displays is as simple as a single press of a button.


It may be one remote but it's still another device in my universal.

And yes, I can use macros to swap between inputs...However, I don't want to put another component into the cabinet.

One button DLB is the way to go.

Directv will have to implement it sooner or later..... 

Mike


----------



## Drew2k

I agree with Mike - it has to be a solution built into one DVR to use two tuners for live buffering. I have 5 DVRs on one TV and a universal remote and can have DLB (Decuple Live Buffers) buffers right now ... but even that is not as convenient as having Dual Live Buffers in one DVR ...


----------



## DBSNewbie

Drew and Mike,

I actually agree with the both of you. DLB should be implemented into one unit. I was just having a little fun with Richierich's post and was offering a "workaround" for the three remote issue. 

Oh, by the way, Drew. I can't wait for the day that D* gives us two live buffers on the HR20 so that I, too, can have DLB (*D*uodecuple *L*ive *B*uffers) 



MicroBeta said:


> It may be one remote but it's still another device in my universal.
> 
> And yes, I can use macros to swap between inputs...However, I don't want to put another component into the cabinet.
> 
> One button DLB is the way to go.
> 
> Directv will have to implement it sooner or later.....
> 
> Mike





Drew2k said:


> I agree with Mike - it has to be a solution built into one DVR to use two tuners for live buffering. I have 5 DVRs on one TV and a universal remote and can have DLB (Decuple Live Buffers) buffers right now ... but even that is not as convenient as having Dual Live Buffers in one DVR ...


----------



## boltjames

GrumpyBear said:


> Well Looks like Boltjames, after doing the work around, can no longer defend D* for its lack of DLB :lol:  :lol:


It's not a work around. It's basic DVR functionality. It's "recording one thing while watching another live and jumping back and forth". DLB doesn't require hitting the 'record' button.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

ATARI said:


> See?
> 
> It's happening.
> 
> No boltjames in over a week, and this thread is dying.


Shh. You'll spoil it.

BJ


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> It's not a work around. It's basic DVR functionality. It's "recording one thing while watching another live and jumping back and forth". DLB doesn't require hitting the 'record' button.
> 
> BJ


You are incorrect.

It is a simulation of DLB which provides a workaround for missing functionality.

However, I don't understand your post.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with GrumpyBear?

Mike


----------



## boltjames

MicroBeta said:


> You are incorrect.
> 
> It is a simulation of DLB which provides a workaround for missing functionality.
> 
> However, I don't understand your post.
> 
> Are you agreeing or disagreeing with GrumpyBear?
> 
> Mike


I am disagreeing that "recording one show while watching live TV and jumping back and forth between them" is some workaround for DLB. It's not a "DLB simulation". It's how a DVR is _supposed _to work. It's not some big discovery or something significant. You can't claim it as something resembling DLB as it requires hitting the 'record' button which, supposedly, is the big issue in this whole thing. I'm not "using the DLB workaround". I'm "using basic DVR functionality where the backup tuner is recording and the primary tuner is 'live'". Core functionality. Record one, watch another. Not record neither, watch both with a buffer.

BJ


----------



## James Long

Isn't _*DLB*_ is the way a DVR with two (or more) tuners is _supposed_ to work.

The steps suggested in this thread is called a workaround because it IS a workaround ... it isn't the _normal_ way of operating a working DLB capable DVR. It is a nice stopgap measure - but nowhere near as useful as having the actual feature available.

However by admitting you USE the workaround you have proven the importance of being able to buffer two programs at the same time as they are airing live ... despite what your lips say (through your fingers, in this case) your heart is crying out to use DLB.


----------



## boltjames

James Long said:


> Isn't _*DLB*_ is the way a DVR with two (or more) tuners is _supposed_ to work.
> 
> The steps suggested in this thread is called a workaround because it IS a workaround ... it isn't the _normal_ way of operating a working DLB capable DVR. It is a nice stopgap measure - but nowhere near as useful as having the actual feature available.
> 
> However by admitting you USE the workaround you have proven the importance of being able to buffer two programs at the same time as they are airing live ... despite what your lips say (through your fingers, in this case) your heart is crying out to use DLB.


I'm on the record as saying 3 or 4 times a year I enjoyed DLB. That's a fact. Two football games coming down to the wire. Sporting events. That's it.

I should point out, however, that I've been a D* DVR subscriber for over 11 years and only for 2 of those years did I even know that the feature existed. Prior to that, I was living quite happily without it. If two football games came down to the wire, I'd just jump between the two _smartly_, making sure I didn't miss a play.

From reading the posts in this thread, there are people who use DLB as a way of life. Watching two shows simultaneously not as the exception, but the rule. Not for sporting events, but sitcoms and news programs. Not for two shows they desperately care about, but for one good one and one "backup" sitting in reserve for viewing later. That's what "record" is for.

And, respectfully, it's not a "workaround". It's not like some major discovery or hack that was months in the making. It's a basic DVR function. Record one, watch another live. You want to tell me that some are using it as a stopgap for DLB? That's okay. Call it the "stopgap". But I won't be accused of using some Holy DLB Workaround as if it's some admission of pro-DLB support. I recorded a Ranger game to watch the Masters live. During a Masters break, I hit 'jump' to go check on the Ranger game. Not a "workaround designed for the DLB lover". Basic DVR functionality.

BJ


----------



## Capt'n

Hey BJ, I totally understand your short absence. With all that stress of watching two shows at once, I would have slept for a week too :lol:


----------



## James Long

boltjames said:


> I should point out, however, that I've been a D* DVR subscriber for over 11 years and only for 2 of those years did I even know that the feature existed.


And you're proud of that lack of knowledge?



> If two football games came down to the wire, I'd just jump between the two _smartly_, making sure I didn't miss a play.


Would you like to thank the teams for not snapping the ball at the exact same time in the two different games you were watching? If what you say is true it would be absolutely amazing coordination of the players to not do anything worth watching in their game until the other game finished their play.

I realize football is generally slow paced ... but to have no overlap? No moment when you wanted to watch both plays at the same time? Not likely.



> But I won't be accused of using some Holy DLB Workaround as if it's some admission of pro-DLB support.


Oh, you'll be accused.


----------



## Drew2k

It's most certainly a workaround, because until recently we didn't even have the ability to pause the live buffer while watching a program from the playlist. Once this ability was added (a basic concept of DVRs), we still only had the ability to retain the buffer on ONE tuner, but using a combination of that one paused live buffer and recording the other tuner and using the playlist to jump between, this becomes a WORKAROUND that simulates DLB. Since it's SIMULATING, it's a workaround to achieve similar results.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> snip
> 
> From reading the posts in this thread, there are people who use DLB as a way of life. Watching two shows simultaneously not as the exception, but the rule. Not for sporting events, but sitcoms and news programs. Not for two shows they desperately care about, but for one good one and one "backup" sitting in reserve for viewing later. That's what "record" is for.


I don't think it's fair to characterize using DLB as an exception versus the rule. Right from the get-go with my first DVR five years ago, I opened the manual and here is what it said...

*"Your recorder automatically saves
up to 30 minutes of live TV on the
channel you're watching. With Dual Tuner,
you can switch between two channels,
and 30 minutes of live TV will be saved on
each channel."*

To me, this means this is how it is supposed to work. It's not an undocumented trick...not something you were supposed to discover...It was functionality built into the machine(on purpose) and documented for the viewer to use...making it the rule, not the exception.

Like I posted earlier, search the appropriate forum's archives and you'll find that this was a promised function. Look back in the 2001-2002 time frame.



boltjames said:



And, respectfully, it's not a "workaround". It's not like some major discovery or hack that was months in the making. It's a basic DVR function. Record one, watch another live. You want to tell me that some are using it as a stopgap for DLB? That's okay. Call it the "stopgap". But I won't be accused of using some Holy DLB Workaround as if it's some admission of pro-DLB support. I recorded a Ranger game to watch the Masters live. During a Masters break, I hit 'jump' to go check on the Ranger game. Not a "workaround designed for the DLB lover". Basic DVR functionality.

BJ

Click to expand...

I'm sorry you have a problem with the semantics. Do a search and you'll find many threads that lead to this workaround. Threads about DLB, SLB, pause points, etc.

As a matter of fact, and IMHO, this thread by Drew2k (kudos Drew) was instrumental in making the workaround what it is today.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103619

Having that pause point was the key to making the simulation of DLB complete. If you were paying attention, before the SLBPP, in order to preserve the pause point the workaround would require recording both streams and poping into the playlist and selecting the "other tuner".

The SLB pause point has only been around for what, five or so months. Before that the workaround was a real pita.

BTW, in the tech world(software in particular) using current functionality to emulate something else is the defintion of a workaround.

_______________________________

Now more to the topic....IMHO, the fact that they added the SLB pause point indicates to me that they are unwilling to integrate DLB into this platform. The impact on other functionality must be more than they are willing to do even after the early assertions that Directv was looking into how to implement DLB.

I also think that since the other major DVRs have it...advertized & documented...Directv will be forced into one of two things.

Implementing DLB in the next generation of DVR.

OR

If the is no next-gen per se, they will have to do the work to put DLB into the system.

It's a theory....

Mike

*HDVR2 USERS MANUAL Pg 46*


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Thought I was done watching this thread, but I was wrong.

Here's why: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127084

DirecTV, please implement DLB so I can finally get HD!!!

-OD


----------



## ub1934

Oblong Desoto said:


> Thought I was done watching this thread, but I was wrong.
> 
> Here's why: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127084
> 
> DirecTV, please implement DLB so I can finally get HD!!!
> 
> -OD


* We still need DLB to make the HR 20 *** a real PVR / DVR*


----------



## Machael

My cable DVR had DLB's and I used them all the time...it's a no brainer to integrate if you truly want a "dual tuner".

When I lost cable, I bought a generic Polaroid DVR. (YIKES!! No guide) and even that piece of crap had DLB's. 

This is a function that one assumes will be "standard" with a dual tuner DVR.

It is obviously nice to have a DVR with a guide again, and a truly wonderful sortable guide at that. But that doen't make the loss of DLB's any less annoying.

I also have Sunday ticket every year, and this was something I assumed would be integrated into such a "high end" DVR.

Oh well....hopefully it will happen someday.


----------



## n3ntj

C'mon D*.. please add DLB to the HR2x line of HD DVRs. Many of us have been asking for a very long time.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

How have you used (or not) the Workaround?

I've used it few times for things such as when the Mets were on and family wanted to watch something else.

Speaking only for me, I found it to be a pain. It works well enough but it just isn't as seamless as I'd like.

However, if I used it as much as we did on the HDVR2, I would probably find it less awkward.

I realized how much I missed it when I was at a friends house over the weekend and he still has DirecTiVo. It was very nice.  

So...Have you used the workaround?

Mike


----------



## Machael

I've tried the workaround and the whole point is it should be as easy as hitting the "previous" channel button and being done.

With the workaround there's aot of extra thumbwork involved, not to mention having to delete the stored programs before they overwhelm your hard drive....

It works, but it's hassle when it should be one button.


----------



## Capt'n

MicroBeta said:


> How have you used (or not) the Workaround?
> 
> I've used it few times for things such as when the Mets were on and family wanted to watch something else.
> 
> Speaking only for me, I found it to be a pain. It works well enough but it just isn't as seamless as I'd like.
> 
> However, if I used it as much as we did on the HDVR2, I would probably find it less awkward.
> 
> I realized how much I missed it when I was at a friends house over the weekend and he still has DirecTiVo. It was very nice.
> 
> So...Have you used the workaround?
> 
> Mike


I tried it a couple of times. I didn't care to perform remote control gymnastics any longer so I said forget about it.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. 108 7.81%
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. 221 15.99%
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. 111 8.03%
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. 890 64.40%
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. 52 3.76%
Voters: 1382

Replies 1,525
Views 44,718


Old DLB stats

A must have! 2836 77.66%
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
Views 146,826


----------



## boltjames

Que said:


> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. 108 7.81%
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. 221 15.99%
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. 111 8.03%
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. 890 *64.40%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. 52 *3.76%*
> Voters: 1382
> 
> Replies 1,525
> Views 44,718
> 
> Old DLB stats
> 
> A must have! 2836 *77.66%*
> Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
> Voters: 3652.
> 
> Replies 2,965
> Views 146,826


So, to summarize:

The old poll had 78% saying they must have it and the new poll has only 68% with similar views. The 10% difference between the polls indicates that the D* userbase is losing interest in the feature and/or is so happy with their HR2X that DLB has no significance.

BJ


----------



## Drew2k

_*It's alive!!!!!!!!*_


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> So, to summarize:
> 
> The old poll had 78% saying they must have it and the new poll has only 68% with similar views. The 10% difference between the polls indicates that the D* userbase is losing interest in the feature and/or is so happy with their HR2X that DLB has no significance.
> 
> BJ


Not sure but I think that's a bit of a leap.

I certainly don't know what goes on in peoples mind but isn't members merely losing interest in this thread, not in DLB itself, just as likely.

Mike



Drew2k said:


> _*It's alive!!!!!!!!*_


:lol: :lol:


----------



## Dr. Booda

boltjames said:


> So, to summarize:
> 
> The old poll had 78% saying they must have it and the new poll has only 68% with similar views. The 10% difference between the polls indicates that the D* userbase is losing interest in the feature and/or is so happy with their HR2X that DLB has no significance.
> 
> BJ


Cool, at this rate we'll be down to 0% interest in DLB 6 years from now. Keep posting guys until then, but mark the date on your calendars so you know when to stop. By then we'll all have changed our minds and not want DLB.

Thanks for letting me know when I need to change my mind by. Of course the number of votes in each poll isn't equal yet, but let's just go with the given analysis.


----------



## Doug Brott

Any good statistician could easily lump the 8% from _I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK._ making the comparative percentage 76% to 78%. Heck, even the 16% who might use it could be argued to be in the yes group ..

If you ask me, it's a wash between the old poll and the new poll .. What was the question again?


----------



## rawilson

Dr. Booda said:


> Cool, at this rate we'll be down to 0% interest in DLB 6 years from now. Keep posting guys until then, but mark the date on your calendars so you know when to stop. By then we'll all have changed our minds and not want DLB.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know when I need to change my mind by. Of course the number of votes in each poll isn't equal yet, but let's just go with the given analysis.


I know that if it still isn't there in 1.5 years, it won't matter anymore to me since my contract will be up and I'll be on Dish by then. Dish has DLB and plenty of HD content for me.


----------



## James Long

The polls have different questions and were taken at a different point in time. When the first poll started there was a lot more shock about the absence of the feature. As people learned the workaround the shock wore off (and the 8% category was created).

I don't see it as a "major shift" ... and the closer you look it seems to be the same breakdown.


----------



## bmerrow

If MRV negates the need for DLB why does the thread continue - I have seen that argument and agree that anyone with multiple DVRs has much less need for DLB once they get MRV.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bmerrow said:


> If MRV negates the need for DLB why does the thread continue - I have seen that argument and agree that anyone with multiple DVRs has much less need for DLB once they get MRV.


I'm not sure how MRV would negate DLB.

Could you elaborate?

Mike


----------



## jheda

Doug Brott said:


> Any good statistician could easily lump the 8% from _I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK._ making the comparative percentage 76% to 78%. Heck, even the 16% who might use it could be argued to be in the yes group ..
> 
> If you ask me, it's a wash between the old poll and the new poll .. What was the question again?


doug u hit the nail on the head again. 76% at a minimum prefer dlb. Exactly like the old poll. Moreover the percentages in this poll has not changed from the first 100 sampling so the consistency over time is astounding.


----------



## mikewolf13

boltjames said:


> So, to summarize:
> 
> The old poll had 78% saying they must have it and the new poll has only 68% with similar views. The 10% difference between the polls indicates that the D* userbase is losing interest in the feature and/or is so happy with their HR2X that DLB has no significance.
> 
> BJ


Or that those that cared, left DTV and/or this forum...


----------



## Drew2k

bmerrow said:


> If MRV negates the need for DLB why does the thread continue - I have seen that argument and agree that anyone with multiple DVRs has much less need for DLB once they get MRV.


MRV is about watching recorded content in multiple locations.

DLB is about watching two live streams in one location.

So MRV doesn't negate the need for DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

By popular demand I've reopened this thread so that the poll can continue to live.

Just a point of note that this thread will be unstuck on Tuesday afternoon (5/6) and allowed to live or die on it's own.


----------



## jheda

I want to thank Doug and Stuart for maintaining this thread for those who cared. This was clearly the most controversial thread involving the hr2x. The thread, unfortunately, required substantial monitoring as it was subject to spaming, and other unwarranted posts. Nevertheless you guys did an amazing job of keeping it going. I humbly tried to keep all tempers even and it was tiring to say the least.

Cant disagree in light of the events this wekend it deserves to be unstuck.

Of course Earl preceded you guys until, very understandably, his patience ran thin with exhausting posts ON BOTH SIDES. So, much kudos to him. 

And lastly to QUE, the OP, the bottom line is....you made your point. 

Over and out. Good night Jaywdetroit, wherever you are....


----------



## Lord Vader

So let it be written, so let it be done.


----------



## boltjames

Farewell, DLB thread. The SBT thread will be optimistic and forward-thinking and will encourage the community to engage in D*'s future, not it's past.

Signing off, 

BJ


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> By popular demand I've reopened this thread so that the poll can continue to live.
> 
> Just a point of note that this thread will be unstuck on Tuesday afternoon (5/6) and allowed to live or die on it's own.


Thanks for unclosing it.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Doug Brott said:


> By popular demand I've reopened this thread so that the poll can continue to live.
> 
> Just a point of note that this thread will be unstuck on Tuesday afternoon (5/6) and allowed to live or die on it's own.


Thank you.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Happy to help


----------



## beer_geek

jheda said:


> ...Cant disagree in light of the events this wekend it deserves to be unstuck.
> 
> ...


What events? What exactly has changed?

We've been told that "something better" is on the horizon. We haven't been told "what" or "when". For all we know, he could be talking about VOD no longer being "beta".


----------



## ATARI

beer_geek said:


> What events? What exactly has changed?
> 
> We've been told that "something better" is on the horizon. We haven't been told "what" or "when". For all we know, he could be talking about VOD no longer being "beta".


See this thread.


----------



## beer_geek

ATARI said:


> See this thread.


I saw that thread and my post applies to it.


----------



## tiger2005

beer_geek said:


> What events? What exactly has changed?
> 
> We've been told that "something better" is on the horizon. We haven't been told "what" or "when". For all we know, he could be talking about VOD no longer being "beta".


At this time I'm willing to give DirecTV the benefit of the doubt, but they NEED to deliver on this. And by deliver I mean they need to bring users exactly what they stated. Something BETTER than DLB alone. VoD out of beta, MRV, etc. won't cut it IMO. PIP w/DLB is the only possible thing I can think of that would be better than DLB alone. If they don't deliver, well...then I have no sympathy for the inevitable riot that will most likely break-out on their CSR's and on this site.


----------



## GrumpyBear

If you want to give them the Benefit of the doubt, thats fine.
The idea of unsticking this topic is both good and bad. Good cause it has run its course, everybody will agree that Bolt James, kept it alive with his endless Fanboy drama. Everything else was just a rehash, nothing new, except the want of a feature that everybody else has, and get it before Football season starts this year and something that should have been on the product 18months ago. 
Bad to unsticky it, cause in 6 months while we are still waiting on the Phantom vaporware improvement, a new thread will start all this up all over again. Live is a double edge sword


----------



## James Long

If someone starts a new thread it can always be merged into this one.

Stickies give threads importance. Sometimes they give threads too much importance. "Live or die on their own merit" is much better for threads like this that are mostly noise and speculation. I believe we are past the point where people were starting multiple threads per week (per day?) and a sticky was needed to attract those posters to the main discussion.

We're probably past the point of needing such a sticky.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Oh I agree, the thread has run its course.


----------



## Tinymon

DLB's are extremely important to me as I use it all the time on my one Hughes SD unit.


----------



## Drew2k

I do agree with the sentiment that whatever Feature X is, which will be better than DLB, it should at a minimum meet the functionality of DLB. I will also give DIRECTV the benefit of the doubt on this, primarily because I have seen opinions of people I trust stating that it will be worth the wait.


----------



## beer_geek

Drew2k said:


> I do agree with the sentiment that whatever Feature X is, which will be better than DLB, it should at a minimum meet the functionality of DLB. I will also give DIRECTV the benefit of the doubt on this, primarily because I have seen opinions of people I trust stating that it will be worth the wait.


The question is "how long is said wait?"


----------



## jheda

Drew2k said:


> I do agree with the sentiment that whatever Feature X is, which will be better than DLB, it should at a minimum meet the functionality of DLB. I will also give DIRECTV the benefit of the doubt on this, primarily because I have seen opinions of people I trust stating that it will be worth the wait.


I agree Drew with yo0ur sentiments. I am looking for this to occur Aug./Sept for world series and NFL ...


----------



## Oblong Desoto

I credit this thread (and the original DLB thread) for introducing me to dbstalk.com. DirecTV can also thank these DLB discussions for giving me some hope, which kept me from switching to Dish a year ago.

Despite a false start, I now have HD and DLB's with PIP thanks to the competition. It will be fun to watch from the outside and see how DirecTV's product line evolves over the next couple of years. I predict that the HD channel offerings will become relatively equal between Dish and DirecTV by 2010, putting the DVR hardware/software back on the front burner like it was a few years ago. Then things will get interesting... especially if one of these companies gets into the fiber game, too.

Farewell DLB thread!


----------



## Que

Oblong Desoto said:


> Farewell DLB thread!


Farewell DLB thread... I just hope all this "better then DLB" stuff is not just false hope....

Please make it by NFL start!

[edit] Might as well put in the stats

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. 112 7.96%
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. 223 15.85%
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. 112 7.96%
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. 908 64.53%
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. 52 3.70%
Voters: 1407

Replies 1,558
Views 46,940


----------



## GrumpyBear

well, you can't really end it or say goodbye, until this new feature appears.


----------



## ATARI

Now the true test of boltjames will occur.

If he is a closet DLB user, then he will keep this thread alive.

If he doesn't post here again, then we know he was sincerely pro-HR2x, and didn't really care about DLB.


----------



## beer_geek

ATARI said:


> Now the true test of boltjames will occur.
> 
> If he is a closet DLB user, then he will keep this thread alive.
> 
> If he doesn't post here again, then we know he was sincerely pro-HR2x, and didn't really care about DLB.


Not true. He has moved his "Camry talk" to the other thread.


----------



## ATARI

beer_geek said:


> Not true. He has moved his "Camry talk" to the other thread.


Yep, I notcied that after I posted here.


----------



## General Custer

This 'better then DLB' talk is just hysterical. Promise vaporware and tell the masses its better then what they want and hope they shut up.

It's as if Directv hired those fake cable executives from their commercials and asked them to come up with a solution to the DLB problem.

CEO: All other tv providers have DLB and we don't. Our customers are screaming for DLB. What do we do?

Exec VP: Let's have engineering work on it.

CFO: No. It's too expensive. Lets have a marketing person tell the customers that something better is coming. By the time they realize that nothing is coming they'll have moved on to some other complaint.

Exec VP: Great idea. The fact that they want to watch more then one channel at a time means they have short attention spans. It might just work.

CEO: (Shakes head)


----------



## Rocker07

General Custer said:


> This 'better then DLB' talk is just hysterical. Promise vaporware and tell the masses its better then what they want and hope they shut up.
> 
> It's as if Directv hired those fake cable executives from their commercials and asked them to come up with a solution to the DLB problem.
> 
> CEO: All other tv providers have DLB and we don't. Our customers are screaming for DLB. What do we do?
> 
> Exec VP: Let's have engineering work on it.
> 
> CFO: No. It's too expensive. Lets have a marketing person tell the customers that something better is coming. By the time they realize that nothing is coming they'll have moved on to some other complaint.
> 
> Exec VP: Great idea. The fact that they want to watch more then one channel at a time means they have short attention spans. It might just work.
> 
> CEO: (Shakes head)


I have to agree with you 100%.....I'll believe it when I see it.:nono2:


----------



## ATARI

I'm leaning towards the vaporware explaination as well.

The main (only?) excuse I have heard in response when people ask D* "What is this great new thing that is better than DLB?" is "Can't tell ya -- it's a secret -- gotta keep our competive advantage."

I call BS.

Any company I know would want to toot its horn and say "Look what I've got coming. You better choose us, cause we got the bleeding edge techy thing coming in a few months."

They have supposedly been working on this "techy thing" for over year, so that is a year's head start on the competition. What's the harm in announcing it? I only see positives -- getting more customers.

Of course, if it is just all vaporware, and there isn't anything new and exciting coming this year, then there isn't anything to announce.

Occam's razor, folks.


----------



## Rocker07

ATARI said:


> I'm leaning towards the vaporware explaination as well.
> 
> The main (only?) excuse I have heard in response when people ask D* "What is this great new thing that is better than DLB?" is "Can't tell ya -- it's a secret -- gotta keep our competive advantage."
> 
> I call BS.
> 
> Any company I know would want to toot its horn and say "Look what I've got coming. You better choose us, cause we got the bleeding edge techy thing coming in a few months."
> 
> They have supposedly been working on this "techy thing" for over year, so that is a year's head start on the competition. What's the harm in announcing it? I only see positives -- getting more customers.
> 
> Of course, if it is just all vaporware, and there isn't anything new and exciting coming this year, then there isn't anything to announce.
> 
> Occam's razor, folks.


I'm pretty sure that a year from now someone will start a thread asking what happened to that "better than DLB" thing.......


----------



## mikewolf13

ATARI said:


> I'm leaning towards the vaporware explaination as well.
> 
> The main (only?) excuse I have heard in response when people ask D* "What is this great new thing that is better than DLB?" is "Can't tell ya -- it's a secret -- gotta keep our competive advantage."
> 
> I call BS.
> 
> .


The real beauty in the explanation, is that *any *new feature could be the one Pontual was talking about...thus making it not vaporware.

WE may not think it's better than DLB, but that's just opinion...and then 3 years form now when something cool does come out (and 2 years after that when it works)..all the apologists will say THAT's what he was talking about...whether it was or wasn't.


----------



## btmoore

mikewolf13 said:


> The real beauty in the explanation, is that *any *new feature could be the one Pontual was talking about...thus making it not vaporware.
> 
> WE may not think it's better than DLB, but that's just opinion...and then 3 years form now when something cool does come out (and 2 years after that when it works)..all the apologists will say THAT's what he was talking about...whether it was or wasn't.


and that is why it is total BS


----------



## Dr. Booda

mikewolf13 said:


> The real beauty in the explanation, is that *any *new feature could be the one Pontual was talking about...thus making it not vaporware.
> 
> WE may not think it's better than DLB, but that's just opinion...and then 3 years form now when something cool does come out (and 2 years after that when it works)..all the apologists will say THAT's what he was talking about...whether it was or wasn't.


On top of that, watch for the new feature to be released with a new model of the box. So if you want the feature, please happily donate $300 and sign on for two more years. I'll guess that the feature release will time in with the first major wave of 2 year commitment terminations.

All of this is Marketing...


----------



## mikewolf13

Dr. Booda said:


> On top of that, watch for the new feature to be released with a new model of the box. So if you want the feature, please happily donate $300 and sign on for two more years. I'll guess that the feature release will time in with the first major wave of 2 year commitment terminations.
> 
> All of this is Marketing...


Although If we listen to boltjames, the new "better than DLB" feature really isn't important. It's non-core functionality that only a few will use.....How do I know? Cause it's not there now.


----------



## ATARI

mikewolf13 said:


> If we listen to boltjames...


I don't anymore.


----------



## n3ntj

Let's just wait and see.


----------



## Rocker07

n3ntj said:


> Let's just wait and see.


.....and wait and wait and wait.........


----------



## RCY

I've been waiting since the HR20 first came out for 30 second skip (finally happened a couple of months ago) and DLB (still waiting). Fortunately, between my SD Dtivos and HTPC for OTA HD, I've been able to be pretty patient.  

Once the Dtivos die, I'll either buy into whatever HD receiver Directtv has, move to Dish/FIOS or just go with OTA HD alone.


----------



## Que

General Custer said:


> This 'better then DLB' talk is just hysterical. Promise vaporware and tell the masses its better then what they want and hope they shut up.
> 
> It's as if Directv hired those fake cable executives from their commercials and asked them to come up with a solution to the DLB problem.
> 
> CEO: All other tv providers have DLB and we don't. Our customers are screaming for DLB. What do we do?
> 
> Exec VP: Let's have engineering work on it.
> 
> CFO: No. It's too expensive. Lets have a marketing person tell the customers that something better is coming. By the time they realize that nothing is coming they'll have moved on to some other complaint.
> 
> Exec VP: Great idea. The fact that they want to watch more then one channel at a time means they have short attention spans. It might just work.
> 
> CEO: (Shakes head)


If nothing happens, I'm sure there will be a lot of backlash. There is too much hope and very close at getting DLB or "Something better". You will have to see something by the end of the year.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Don't worry about a timelimit, it will happen when it happens. If you are Looking for a timeframe though, when you here the announcement or whispers of the model release, you will know when the Better than DLB feature will be released.


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> when you here the announcement or whispers of the model release, you will know when the Better than DLB feature will be released.


You just won't give it up, will you?


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> You just won't give it up, will you?


No, but I will post a picture of me eating crow, if they do it with the current HR2x. Still say a new model is coming, that will produce the Better than DLB feature.


----------



## General Custer

WHy can't earl spills the beans on why there is no DLB now that he is retired? He doesn't have to worry about burning his bridges now.

I'm sure its a pretty stupid reason though and it'll just piss all of us off.


----------



## Jeremy W

General Custer said:


> WHy can't earl spills the beans on why there is no DLB now that he is retired?


There must be a reason Earl had to retire from this site when he moved to his new employer. Think about that...


----------



## Capt'n

Without going back and reading it, I think he said conflict of interest. That would imply the new job is with a competitor. Or he could be working for D* in a higher capacity.

Just a guess.


----------



## James Long

Wasn't the answer posted last week (as released in chat)?

(D* is working on something better.)


----------



## General Custer

If he's working for a competitor then spill. 

If he's working for Directv then that just adds a whole lot of ammunition to those people who thought he was way too cozy with Directv and defending them no matter how anti-customer they became.

The something better excuse is just plain childish. Its not an answer. It's a stalling tactic.

If the FCC, or congress or whoever has the power would force Directv to open up their system to competition from other set-top box providers a la cable card, you'd see how fast DLB would be on the HR series.


----------



## James Long

I do not know who is is now working for ... and I didn't ask before he left.
If Earl wanted to tell me he would tell me.

I do know that when an honorable man makes a promise an honorable man keeps it. If someone at DirecTV told Earl something in confidence and asked him not to share he'd keep that secret. Even if his new job was setting up computers for the point of sale systems at WalMart. Or following horses in parades. It is all part of being an honorable man.

:backtotop (DLB!)

Nobody is accepting the simple answer as to why DLB isn't on the HR-20 ... would you prefer a complicated lie?


----------



## vicmeldrew

General Custer said:


> If he's working for a competitor then spill.
> 
> If he's working for Directv then that just adds a whole lot of ammunition to those people who thought he was way too cozy with Directv and defending them no matter how anti-customer they became.
> 
> The something better excuse is just plain childish. Its not an answer. It's a stalling tactic./QUOTE]
> 
> i replied in the new thread that the "something better feature" was a diversion tactic to keep people from leaving and DLB is not coming - it took them about 10 minutes and my post was removed - they do not want negativity - however, i think in the absence of not telling us what is coming, if anything, and not ever saying DLB will or will not come - they just want to keep people hanging on in hope - i do not see how D can promote all of the great sport packages and then not have this to make the most of it - there you go - will this get deleted too?


----------



## Jeremy W

vicmeldrew said:


> i replied in the new thread that the "something better feature" was a diversion tactic to keep people from leaving and DLB is not coming - it took them about 10 minutes and my post was removed


This post was removed? http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1587038#post1587038


----------



## NickD

I want true DLB, not some work around. Was I going to wait for DLB to come before "upgrading" to the latest and greatest so I could have HD, no. I knew going into the HR20 that it was lacking DLB, even though I was told that this box is an "upgrade" from my Directv Tivo. There are many days that I curse this box for not having DLB.


----------



## John Nadeau

Is there anyway to either:

1) *preserve the live buffer *when switching channels (rather than flushing it out) ? I've read that you can "record" the live buffer, but I'd like to be able to surf other channels without losing everything in the buffer. I've also read much about the highly desired "dual live buffers", which don't seem to be possible at this time. Just "preserving" the buffer might help fill the need of DLB's for many users. Is there a keyword trick (like the 30skip trick) to enable this?

2) set up a warning message (to let you know you're watching buffered TV) before switching channels ? Our old ReplayTv box would warn you before flushing out the buffer.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I have received two calls offering me an HR20 for free if I let them take my HR10.
I said no way until the HR20 has DLB.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DC_SnDvl said:


> I have received two calls offering me an HR20 for free if I let them take my HR10.
> I said no way until the HR20 has DLB.


You sure they said they were going to take the HR10 away? If the CSR told you that I think he/she was mistaken, you own it.

My friend got a HR20 and still uses his HR10.

Mike


----------



## Que

NickD said:


> I want true DLB, not some work around. Was I going to wait for DLB to come before "upgrading" to the latest and greatest so I could have HD, no. I knew going into the HR20 that it was lacking DLB, even though I was told that this box is an "upgrade" from my Directv Tivo. There are many days that I curse this box for not having DLB.


I still have not upgraded. Still getting OTA HD with HR10, that is what I mainly watch anyways. If/when it does get DLB or "something better" I will upgrade. Hell I have it notes on my account that I would get a free upgrade. I bought this HR10 knowing that soon that the HR20 was coming out.........after all the bugs and no DLB, I still have this HR10.


----------



## RCY

Que said:


> I still have not upgraded. Still getting OTA HD with HR10, that is what I mainly watch anyways. If/when it does get DLB or "something better" I will upgrade. Hell I have it notes on my account that I would get a free upgrade. I bought this HR10 knowing that soon that the HR20 was coming out.........after all the bugs and no DLB, I still have this HR10.


Same here. I'm getting along with 2 SD Directivos and a HTPC with OTA HD receivers. I'd like to make the transition, but DLB is the last item I need to see on the HD Dvr for me to take the plunge. (30 second skip is now in the box, so that hurdle is crossed)

At some point, I'll probably make the move to sat/cable HD. One of the Dtivos dying will probably be the trigger. But living in the LA area, there are enough OTA HD channels, I may decide to just get by with that. I've been committment free for a couple of years now, and I'd have to be impressed with their HD Dvr option to sign up again for another 2 year stint with D*.


----------



## Flyrx7

RCY said:


> ....I'd have to be impressed with their HD Dvr option to sign up again for another 2 year stint with D*.


I think therein may lie D* reasoning for the lack of DLB in the current model HR's.
As soon as most early HR20/21 adopters come up on their 2 year aniversaries, they'll offer an "Even Better, Deluxe DVR with DLB", just to get another group of 2 year commitments out of their user base.

I'm starting to think that is all a marketing ploy, kind of like planned obsolescence.
The next unit will have DLB, but no PIG, or CID, or something like that.
To use a very tired analogy: I traded in a Cadillac, but drove away with a *Camry*.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## RCY

Flyrx7 said:


> I think therein may lie D* reasoning for the lack of DLB in the current model HR's.
> As soon as most early HR20/21 adopters come up on their 2 year aniversaries, they'll offer an "Even Better, Deluxe DVR with DLB", just to get another group of 2 year commitments out of their user base.
> 
> I'm starting to think that is all a marketing ploy, kind of like planned obsolescence.
> The next unit will have DLB, but no PIG, or CID, or something like that.
> To use a very tired analogy: I traded in a Cadillac, but drove away with a *Camry*.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Perhaps. But given D*'s recent track history with completely new DVR hardware (R15, HR20), I'm not sure I wouldn't be waiting for the "service pack 1" version of this new HD DVR before diving in.


----------



## rawilson

They have 15 months for me. I do NOT plan to make a new commitment to get a feature that I had for years with my Tivo-based unit. If they want me to "upgrade" again and make a new commitment, I'm gone. If not for my current commitment, I'd have already switched to dish.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Flyrx7 said:


> I think therein may lie D* reasoning for the lack of DLB in the current model HR's.
> As soon as most early HR20/21 adopters come up on their 2 year aniversaries, they'll offer an "Even Better, Deluxe DVR with DLB", just to get another group of 2 year commitments out of their user base.
> 
> I'm starting to think that is all a marketing ploy, kind of like planned obsolescence.
> The next unit will have DLB, but no PIG, or CID, or something like that.
> To use a very tired analogy: I traded in a Cadillac, but drove away with a *Camry*.





rawilson said:


> They have 15 months for me. I do NOT plan to make a new commitment to get a feature that I had for years with my Tivo-based unit. If they want me to "upgrade" again and make a new commitment, I'm gone. If not for my current commitment, I'd have already switched to dish.


I agree whole heartedly with both of you, but I'm hoping for FIOS to appear in San Jose. Tech capital of the country, and no FIOS!?:nono2:


----------



## rustynails

rawilson said:


> They have 15 months for me. I do NOT plan to make a new commitment to get a feature that I had for years with my Tivo-based unit. If they want me to "upgrade" again and make a new commitment, I'm gone. If not for my current commitment, I'd have already switched to dish.


I just signed up with D after being with E. I had no choice but to go with D because I couldn't get clear line of sight on sat 129 and it had a lot of the HD programming on it. I really miss my VIP 722 with E!


----------



## GrumpyBear

rustynails said:


> I just signed up with D after being with E. I had no choice but to go with D because I couldn't get clear line of sight on sat 129 and it had a lot of the HD programming on it. I really miss my VIP 722 with E!


Until you lose it, you just don't realize just how much you use, DLB and some of the other features. I keep reading they are going to replace DLB with something better, but the thread has FRAYED, as DLB just needs to be added.
A vague Promise on something better doesn't cut it. If DLB was as easy to implement as they say, the would just do it, and add to it. The fact they haven't, after 2yrs, shows that the current HR2x isn't ready for DLB or anything that will make us forget DLB.


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> If DLB was as easy to implement as they say, the would just do it, and add to it. The fact they haven't, after 2yrs, shows that the current HR2x isn't ready for DLB or anything that will make us forget DLB.


I can't wait until you are proven wrong. Your negativity is astounding, and it's kind of amazing how you can think so little of the HR2x when you obviously know so little about it.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Yes the CSR said I could have an HR20 IF they took my HR10. I said that owned that but it did not change her stance.



MicroBeta said:


> You sure they said they were going to take the HR10 away? If the CSR told you that I think he/she was mistaken, you own it.
> 
> My friend got a HR20 and still uses his HR10.
> 
> Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> I can't wait until you are proven wrong. Your negativity is astounding, and it's kind of amazing how you can think so little of the HR2x when you obviously know so little about it.


I am glad you didn't wait another 5 min's, or I would have lost out on a Free lunch today. You made my co-worker laugh hard, as you responded just the way I said you would, and just within the set timelimit.
Thanks, Naked Daytona wings, and Sam Adams for lunch.


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> I am glad you didn't wait another 5 min's, or I would have lost out on a Free lunch today. You made my co-worker laugh hard, as you responded just the way I said you would, and just within the set timelimit.
> Thanks, Naked Daytona wings, and Sam Adams for lunch.


You got lucky, I'm not usually home at this time during the day.


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> I am glad you didn't wait another 5 min's, or I would have lost out on a Free lunch today. You made my co-worker laugh hard, as you responded just the way I said you would, and just within the set timelimit.
> Thanks, Naked Daytona wings, and Sam Adams for lunch.


If the set time limit was 1 hour, then you lose, because according to the time stamp, it was 1 hour and 1 minute.

Regardless, I agree with you -- you are not being negative, but realistic.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> If the set time limit was 1 hour, then you lose, because according to the time stamp, it was 1 hour and 1 minute.
> 
> Regardless, I agree with you -- you are not being negative, but realistic.


Counterpart, didn't want to go by timestamp, he set that time for 9am Pacific.
Just made it. I know some think and truely believe that the HR2x will be revamped, with the new features via firmware updates and programming. Sounds like a lot of work for a 2yr old product, and if it was as easy I some say, most of the features would be turned on already. 2yrs later and nada, sounds like New Reciever coming out, as that's were the money will be at, and thats were companies invest.


----------



## Jeremy W

ATARI said:


> you are not being negative, but realistic.


So when the CTO says that the current DVRs will be getting something, and he says they won't because he knows better than the CTO, he's the one being realistic?


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> I know some think and truely believe that the HR2x will be revamped, with the new features via firmware updates and programming.


This sentence just continues to prove that you don't know what you're talking about. It's been explained to you multiple times, but you just ignore it.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> So when the CTO says that the current DVRs will be getting something, and he says they won't because he knows better than the CTO, he's the one being realistic?


Hmm,
A CFO, CEO, CTO has NEVER spoke and then had to correct themselves down the road!?!!?:eek2: That happens everyday, when they speak infront of Investor Groups, or in public annoucements. What they may or may not say in a forum of users where the information can't be written down(and for good reason, keeps open channels) gives even more latitude, as it can't really be used against them, because it isn't or was ever offical. Talk is cheap, actions speak Volumes. If was as easy and simple it would be real easy for them to say what it is and when it was coming. Only thing anybody has said is they think it can be done, and it should be able to. NOT that they have seen it done.


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> A CFO, CEO, CTO has NEVER spoke and then had to correct themselves down the road!?!!?:eek2:


Oh, so he *was* just wrong, but doesn't know it yet. Right. Well I'm glad that you know more about the box than the CTO and the engineers in charge of writing the software for it.

I'm not saying that executives never make mistakes, I'm just saying that your reasoning for saying that he made one is shoddy.


GrumpyBear said:


> If was as easy and simple it would be real easy for them to say what it is and when it was coming.


When has DirecTV *ever* been that open about new features on the HR2x? We got no such information on Media Share, no such information on VOD, no such information on MRV. They actually haven't even _mentioned_ MRV in public! You can sit here and invent arguments all you want, but you're pulling them all out of thin air. You don't even have a firm understanding of the way the HR2x works, so how you feel knowledgeable enough to make these proclaimations is beyond me.


----------



## ATARI

Jeremy W said:


> So when the CTO says that the current DVRs will be getting something, and he says they won't because he knows better than the CTO, he's the one being realistic?


Company officials tell you what you want to hear, not necessarily the way things actually are.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> Oh, so he *was* just wrong, but doesn't know it yet. Right. Well I'm glad that you know more about the box than the CTO and the engineers in charge of writing the software for it.
> 
> I'm not saying that executives never make mistakes, I'm just saying that your reasoning for saying that he made one is shoddy.
> 
> When has DirecTV *ever* been that open about new features on the HR2x? We got no such information on Media Share, no such information on VOD, no such information on MRV. They actually haven't even _mentioned_ MRV in public! You can sit here and invent arguments all you want, but you're pulling them all out of thin air. You don't even have a firm understanding of the way the HR2x works, so how you feel knowledgeable enough to make these proclaimations is beyond me.


Calm down,
I never said IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN, I said I believe it is unlikely, they would put this much work into a 2yr old product. I do believe, if it was as easy as some have posted, granted they have been corrected several times over(it "could" be done, just nobody has seen it done), D* would be all over adding new features, instead of just focusing on updates and fix's. As for CTO's being Wrong, they are wrong all the time, they don't always talk to thier project managers and other Engineers, granted I didn't say he was wrong, I did say he has only said any of this in an arena that couldn't be used against him down the road, as it was off the record. Pretending that 2yrs afterwards that a new product wouldn't be around the corner is a little bit of an Eygitian River.


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> I believe it is unlikely, they would put this much work into a 2yr old product.


So MRV and PC viewing are extremely simple to add, but this new feature is so much work that DirecTV wouldn't bother with it. Makes perfect sense.


GrumpyBear said:


> Pretending that 2yrs afterwards that a new product wouldn't be around the corner is a little bit of an Eygitian River.


The HR2x platform was meant to serve as the base for DirecTV's future plans. The next signficant new HD DVR will be the HMC Server, which will still be based on the HR2x platform. The HR2x DVRs are a part of the "Whole Home DVR" strategy that is coming next year. If they were a dead product, why would DirecTV be planning so much future stuff around them?

I really wish you would address my questions directly, instead of just dancing around them with the same tired rhetoric you've posted multiple times before. They're simple and direct questions that should be easy for someone like you who has all of the answers.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> So MRV and PC viewing are extremely simple to add, but this new feature is so much work that DirecTV wouldn't bother with it. Makes perfect sense.
> 
> The HR2x platform was meant to serve as the base for DirecTV's future plans. The next signficant new HD DVR will be the HMC Server, which will still be based on the HR2x platform. The HR2x DVRs are a part of the "Whole Home DVR" strategy that is coming next year. If they were a dead product, why would DirecTV be planning so much future stuff around them?
> 
> I really wish you would address my questions directly, instead of just dancing around them with the same tired rhetoric you've posted multiple times before. They're simple and direct questions that should be easy for someone like you who has all of the answers.


Thanks for lunch


----------



## Jeremy W

GrumpyBear said:


> Thanks for lunch


And thanks for proving my point.


----------



## harperd

My household uses the dual tuner feature so much that if it's not enabled soon we will not only not upgrade any other tuners, but we will switch from DirecTV to a competitor who does have a "real" dual tuner with dual live buffers. I tried to explain the workaround listed above to my wife but when I have to print out directions on how to make it work for her....forget about it, it's not possible and not really even a workaround IMO. It's too complicated to make it useful, and you also have to remember to record one of the shows. When I bought the HR21 I assumed since it had dual tuners that I was actually getting what I already had with the HR10-250. I should have read dbstalk first, but I trusted directv to have a full featured product. Now I feel like a sucker. My wife told me after we upgraded.....to the HR21 from the HR10-250 ".... so now we get no OTA channels for local weather, and I don't get the dual tuners anymore?" some upgrade $&%*&#(@(*!!!!

It's hard to un-ring the bell once it's been rung and even if you don't use dual tuners today because you never really had it before, once you do it's the same quality issue as either having or not having a DVR. Once you've had it it's not as enjoyable to function without it again.

So IMO if DTV decides to not add it as a standard, easy to use feature. We would change our subscription and go to a service that offered the full package, even if the new provider had less HD channels. It's just too nice a feature not to have for the money we pay for service.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jeremy W said:


> So MRV and PC viewing are extremely simple to add, but this new feature is so much work that DirecTV wouldn't bother with it. Makes perfect sense.
> 
> The HR2x platform was meant to serve as the base for DirecTV's future plans. The next signficant new HD DVR will be the HMC Server, which will still be based on the HR2x platform. The HR2x DVRs are a part of the "Whole Home DVR" strategy that is coming next year. If they were a dead product, why would DirecTV be planning so much future stuff around them?
> 
> I really wish you would address my questions directly, instead of just dancing around them with the same tired rhetoric you've posted multiple times before. They're simple and direct questions that should be easy for someone like you who has all of the answers.


Sounds like a really cool, Client/Server environment, and the HR2x will be a great Slave/Client, to the new Master Server reciever that will supply all the functions. Update the Firmware to the HR2x, this will allow it to work with the new Master Reciever. I know I am pushing your button on this, with this description, but it just looks and sounds like, the only way D* will becoming out with DLB style feature or a Feature that will make people forget about DLB, is still going to require a NEW system. HR2x will work with the new fantasy feature, you just have to buy more hardware. Thats Business life nothing wrong with it. Your own description, helps paint the picture. HR2x wont do it on its own. The CTO hasn't lied or misled anybody, you will be able to use your current equipment with the NEW Master Reciever.


----------



## GrumpyBear

harperd said:


> My household uses the dual tuner feature so much that if it's not enabled soon we will not only not upgrade any other tuners, but we will switch from DirecTV to a competitor who does have a "real" dual tuner with dual live buffers. I tried to explain the workaround listed above to my wife but when I have to print out directions on how to make it work for her....forget about it, it's not possible and not really even a workaround IMO. It's too complicated to make it useful, and you also have to remember to record one of the shows. When I bought the HR21 I assumed since it had dual tuners that I was actually getting what I already had with the HR10-250. I should have read dbstalk first, but I trusted directv to have a full featured product. Now I feel like a sucker. My wife told me after we upgraded.....to the HR21 from the HR10-250 ".... so now we get no OTA channels for local weather, and I don't get the dual tuners anymore?" some upgrade $&%*&#(@(*!!!!
> 
> It's hard to un-ring the bell once it's been rung and even if you don't use dual tuners today because you never really had it before, once you do it's the same quality issue as either having or not having a DVR. Once you've had it it's not as enjoyable to function without it again.
> 
> So IMO if DTV decides to not add it as a standard, easy to use feature. We would change our subscription and go to a service that offered the full package, even if the new provider had less HD channels. It's just too nice a feature not to have for the money we pay for service.


Well there is the work around, with recording, not live though, and the other workaround is more doable, and thats 2 HR2x inplace of 1 Reciever, have to work on the master remote about that though.


----------



## Flyrx7

Does anybody know if an email contact for D* was ever posted? I thought I remembered an address where we could contact someone with D* and let them know our concerns.
I would be very curious, as I would like to email them.

Regards,


----------



## Jeremy W

Flyrx7 said:


> Does anybody know if an email contact for D* was ever posted? I thought I remembered an address where we could contact someone with D* and let them know our concerns.
> I would be very curious, as I would like to email them.
> 
> Regards,


Posting on here is just as good as, if not better than, e-mailing them.


----------



## Nicholsen

I think DLB is a must have.

The competitors all have it, and based upon this poll it is a very popular feature among the board members. I know this issue has been kicked around for two years, but I would love to know what it is about the hardware architecture of the HR2x units that made implementing this either impossible or too difficult to implement.

Has D* ever explained the nature of the problem? The "better than DLB" announcement and commentary makes me think there must be a great story behind the decision to drop DLB from the new DVR units.


----------



## raw121

Jeremy W said:


> Posting on here is just as good as, if not better than, e-mailing them.


Obviously, not on this issue.


----------



## Jeremy W

raw121 said:


> Obviously, not on this issue.


If you think that the reason there is no DLB is that DirecTV didn't get enough e-mails, you're sadly mistaken.


----------



## ptalbot

Jeremy W said:


> If you think that the reason there is no DLB is that DirecTV didn't get enough e-mails, you're sadly mistaken.


What is the reason then....or reasons? I have 2 HR10-250s and would love to get HR20s or HR21s to replace, but DLB is a dealkiller for me. Not to mention the OTA add on for the HR21. That being said...if I have to wait (say until the NFL season...) for DTV to get right with regard to this before I am able to get the *real* HD lineup, then I am probably urinating in the breeze as it were.

Someone convince me (seriously) that I need to stay with DTV (after 13 years) and that the benefits of getting the HR21/AM combo and loss of DLB outweigh the added cost and loss of feature.


----------



## BubblePuppy

Nicholsen said:


> I think DLB is a must have.
> 
> The competitors all have it, and based upon this poll it is a very popular feature among the board members. I know this issue has been kicked around for two years, but I would love to know what it is about the hardware architecture of the HR2x units that made implementing this either impossible or too difficult to implement.
> 
> *Has D* ever explained the nature of the problem? The "better than DLB" announcement and commentary makes me think there must be a great story behind the decision to drop DLB from the new DVR units*.


I would like to know this also.


----------



## raw121

Jeremy W said:


> Posting on here is just as good as, if not better than, e-mailing them.


To expand.

What sending email to them should do is get the issue logged in their ticketing/tracking system. When management does reviews of the stats that system then they should be able to see the numbers. When you post to an external forum, even one that has a pretty close relationship, you are going on faith that true sentiment is getting through.

It has also been said that Directv doesn't view this forum as the true representation of their user base. That it is all about the power users. So getting email would cause them to see the problem as coming from a "regular" user. Unless of course they use the term DLB, because nobody outside of the forum calls it that. They just know that they could switch between tuners without losing the buffers.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Those of you that have had the NFL Ticket or ESPN gameplan. Have you found the need for even more LB's?


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## hdtvfan0001

GrumpyBear said:


> Those of you that have had the NFL Ticket or ESPN gameplan. Have you found the need for even more LB's?


Not in the 10 years I've had it...


----------



## 94SupraTT

GrumpyBear said:


> Those of you that have had the NFL Ticket or ESPN gameplan. Have you found the need for even more LB's?


More than 2? or more than 1?

Once you've had DLBs its hard to be without them. Perhaps the same would be true for triple live buffers.

I've had NFL Sunday Ticket for 5 or 6 years now and I now I'm going to hate not having DLB this year due to the HR20. I might even just watch the games on one of my HR10s because of this.


----------



## GrumpyBear

94SupraTT said:


> More than 2? or more than 1?
> 
> Once you've had DLBs its hard to be without them. Perhaps the same would be true for triple live buffers.
> 
> I've had NFL Sunday Ticket for 5 or 6 years now and I now I'm going to hate not having DLB this year due to the HR20. I might even just watch the games on one of my HR10s because of this.


I should have said those that had or have the HR10.


----------



## Drewg5

not even gonna comment... as it is this is still an issue, so what to do about it.. other than crying in your milk... IMHO the only way at this point that DLB will happen is if every one that wants it cancels there servace... lots of lost $$$ is a wake up call.


----------



## Jeremy W

94SupraTT said:


> Once you've had DLBs its hard to be without them.


I had them. I never used them, and don't miss them at all.


----------



## Drewg5

Jeremy W said:


> I had them. I never used them, and don't miss them at all.


+ 1


----------



## Nicholsen

For the NFL, DLB is an absolute must have. It lets you watch two games at the same time, almost live.

It also lets you move away from one of the games (or both of them) to a third or fourth game that is close in the second half or that is heading into overtime.

Recording the entire game on two channels does not achieve this level of functionality, or anything remotely (no pun intended) close.

Most users really, really like DLB. Can somebody explain to me why it was removed? We already pay big $$ to get out of market NFL games, it seems reasonable to keep up the drumbeat for DLB so we get our monies worth. Without DLB, heading to the sports bar becomes a much more attractive proposition.


----------



## paulman182

94SupraTT said:


> I've had NFL Sunday Ticket for 5 or 6 years now and I now I'm going to hate not having DLB this year due to the HR20. I might even just watch the games on one of my HR10s because of this.


The Sunday Ticket games will not be available in HD on HR10s due to the migration to MPEG 4, sorry.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Nicholsen said:


> For the NFL, DLB is an absolute must have. It lets you watch two games at the same time, almost live.


As someone who'd had NFL ST since it came out...I have somehow managed to survive without DLB and continue to do so....so the "must have" is subjective.

I'm neutral on it - if its there, I'd probably use it...if not....its not the end of the world...


----------



## rawilson

Drewg5 said:


> not even gonna comment... as it is this is still an issue, so what to do about it.. other than crying in your milk... IMHO the only way at this point that DLB will happen is if every one that wants it cancels there servace... lots of lost $$$ is a wake up call.


Bingo! Unfortunately for me, I still have a long commitment and cannot justify paying the hefty price directv wants to let me out of it.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> I had them. I never used them, and don't miss them at all.


Me too. I guess if you only have one HD DVR, the need might be there (it does baffle me that people purchase DVRs and watch live TV with them), but with multiple DVRs watching two games live is not an essential issue. And please don't tell me that you can't afford multiple HR20/21s.

Whatever happened to BoltJames?

By the way, my three TiVos (SD) are still randomly rebooting and most of the blame seems to be put on the dual live buffers. I don't agree with that assessment totally, but I wouldn't be surprised if that feature didn't have something to do with it.

Rich


----------



## beer_geek

rich584 said:


> ...it does baffle me that people purchase DVRs and watch live TV with them...
> 
> Rich


Are you saying you have a second receiver attached to your TV for when you want to watch something that's "Live"?

Now *that's* baffling.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Nicholsen said:


> For the NFL, DLB is an absolute must have. It lets you watch two games at the same time, almost live.
> 
> It also lets you move away from one of the games (or both of them) to a third or fourth game that is close in the second half or that is heading into overtime.
> 
> Recording the entire game on two channels does not achieve this level of functionality, or anything remotely (no pun intended) close.
> 
> Most users really, really like DLB. Can somebody explain to me why it was removed? We already pay big $$ to get out of market NFL games, it seems reasonable to keep up the drumbeat for DLB so we get our monies worth. Without DLB, heading to the sports bar becomes a much more attractive proposition.


The Idea of having NFL ST, and know that if you leave one game during a Timeout or a quarter Commerical Fest, and go to a different game. Knowing I couldn't jump back to the 1st game were I left it, or rewind it to see something I missed, is just dumb. The technology is there, the competition all over DLB, adding DLB an promoting DLB. Scores are updated during College and NFL games to record a game to try to really enjoy it later, there are NO surprises. These same updates intice you to see whats going on a game you aren't watching, to see whats going on. Direct is the SPORTS package leader, but drops the number one feature for enjoying sports action.


----------



## Rich

beer_geek said:


> Are you saying you have a second receiver attached to your TV for when you want to watch something that's "Live"?
> 
> Now *that's* baffling.


I have a bunch of HR20s hooked up to several plasma TVs. I have the capability to record 12 games at a time.

I rarely watch "live" TV unless I'm at someone's house and have no choice. I haven't watched a live series show at home for over 20 years. I haven't watched a sports event live for years either.

That was what I was trying to convey on my previous post. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I've been avoiding the forum since the cowardly attack on Stuart Sweet a couple months ago and I realize that you have never been privy to my viewing habits. I've been a time shifter since the middle 80s.

Have I cleared up the confusion?

Rich


----------



## Rich

Nicholsen said:


> Can somebody explain to me why it was removed?


The HR20/21s never had DLBs. This debate has been going on since the advent of the HR20. Stu just chose a different approach to the issue by asking for your "thoughts on DLBs" thereby giving the folks who don't care about DLBs a chance to voice their opinions.

Rich


----------



## ptalbot

GrumpyBear said:


> The Idea of having NFL ST, and know that if you leave one game during a Timeout or a quarter Commerical Fest, and go to a different game. Knowing I couldn't jump back to the 1st game were I left it, or rewind it to see something I missed, is just dumb. The technology is there, the competition all over DLB, adding DLB an promoting DLB. Scores are updated during College and NFL games to record a game to try to really enjoy it later, there are NO surprises. These same updates intice you to see whats going on a game you aren't watching, to see whats going on. Direct is the SPORTS package leader, but drops the number one feature for enjoying sports action.


Amen. I'm going to have to call and cancel Sunday Ticket it seems. Only have HR10's and don't care to see the games in SD only. I really don't dig the idea of paying *another* $99 every year to get the games in HD either....the whole thing has gotten ridiculous and I think I'm done. What remains to be seen is....am I done altogether after 13 years as a subscriber? I'm beginning to seriously consider what has previously been unconceivable to me...DishTV or UVerse. I cannot 'upgrade' to HR20s and lose DLB's, have to shell out more $$$ for an off box OTA solution. Some upgrade. I'd love to get the expanded HD lineup, but all the effort, $$$'s, and drawbacks don't have me anywhere near enthused.


----------



## Nicholsen

ptalbot said:


> Amen. I'm going to have to call and cancel Sunday Ticket it seems. Only have HR10's and don't care to see the games in SD only. I really don't dig the idea of paying *another* $99 every year to get the games in HD either....the whole thing has gotten ridiculous and I think I'm done. What remains to be seen is....am I done altogether after 13 years as a subscriber? I'm beginning to seriously consider what has previously been unconceivable to me...DishTV or UVerse. I cannot 'upgrade' to HR20s and lose DLB's, have to shell out more $$$ for an off box OTA solution. Some upgrade. I'd love to get the expanded HD lineup, but all the effort, $$$'s, and drawbacks don't have me anywhere near enthused.


I am in a similar quandry. I am really unhappy with the supposed HR2X "upgrade." I want the NFL in HD with DBL, just like the HR10-250 provided. It's not impossible, and given what we pay for Sunday Ticket, seems very reasonable.

I already have 2 DVRs, and five 100 feet cable runs (OTA plus 2 runs for each DVR). It seems incredible that I would have to buy (or lease) another HR21 and run more cable in order to watch two football games at one time.

D*! Do your long time customers a solid. Give us back DLB, and make the HR21 Slo-Mo work before the NFL season stars.


----------



## ATARI

ptalbot said:


> I'm going to have to call and cancel Sunday Ticket it seems.


That's what I did last year when it was apparent the HR20 wasn't going to get DLB.


----------



## MX727

ptalbot said:


> Amen. I'm going to have to call and cancel Sunday Ticket it seems. Only have HR10's and don't care to see the games in SD only.


I had to do the same.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> That's what I did last year when it was apparent the HR20 wasn't going to get DLB.


Have you thought about using 2 HR2X's? Each one with its own imput into the TV or Hometheater, depending on your setup? I am giving this option some thought.


----------



## anubys

GrumpyBear said:


> Have you thought about using 2 HR2X's? Each one with its own imput into the TV or Hometheater, depending on your setup? I am giving this option some thought.


I highly recommend it if you're and NFL ST subscriber...you can have 4 games at once...there's hardly ever a week when there are more than 4 games I want to watch at the same time...


----------



## GrumpyBear

anubys said:


> I highly recommend it if you're and NFL ST subscriber...you can have 4 games at once...there's hardly ever a week when there are more than 4 games I want to watch at the same time...


Not to be nit picky, but I would only have 2 Football games, at a time. NO DLB would be included


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thinking out loud - wonder if the HR10-250 folks might get some kind of upgrade offer if they retain NFL ST...


----------



## anubys

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thinking out loud - wonder if the HR10-250 folks might get some kind of upgrade offer if they retain NFL ST...


they did...if you have an HR10 and subscribe to the NFL ST, you probably got a call from DirecTV offering you a free upgrade...this happened a couple of months ago...


----------



## ptalbot

anubys said:


> they did...if you have an HR10 and subscribe to the NFL ST, you probably got a call from DirecTV offering you a free upgrade...this happened a couple of months ago...


I have yet to receive a call...have been a NFLST and SuperFan customer for the last 2 seasons. For those of you who have received free upgrades, have any of you gotten more than 1 HR21/AM21? I have 2 HR10-250s and would need to get 2 HR21s/AM21s to replace. I have yet to call DTV to see what I can get done, but I am in the last 2 months of my commitment.


----------



## anubys

ptalbot said:


> I have yet to receive a call...have been a NFLST and SuperFan customer for the last 2 seasons. For those of you who have received free upgrades, have any of you gotten more than 1 HR21/AM21? I have 2 HR10-250s and would need to get 2 HR21s/AM21s to replace. I have yet to call DTV to see what I can get done, but I am in the last 2 months of my commitment.


I got 2 HR21s to replace 2 HR10-250s...no AM21s...but the AM21s were not out yet...I thought about calling them now that the AM21s are available but have been too lazy...

give them a call...tell them that you heard the NFL ST subscribers got free upgrades...mention the forums...if the CSR is clueless...hang up and call again...they HAVE to switch you in order to keep you as an NFL ST subscriber (if you want the HD)...you probably just were not home the couple of times they tried to call...


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> Have you thought about using 2 HR2X's? Each one with its own imput into the TV or Hometheater, depending on your setup? I am giving this option some thought.


Only if they give me a second one for free.


----------



## General Custer

Has anyone found out what feature is better then DLB yet?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

General Custer said:


> Has anyone found out what feature is better then DLB yet?


No, we have not got any info on it yet from DIRECTV.


----------



## spidey

I like the idea but can live without it, MRV and ability to get recorded shows on say my H20 or H21 now thats rocking.


----------



## Jeremy W

spidey said:


> MRV and ability to get recorded shows on say my H20 or H21 now thats rocking.


I doubt you'll see it on the H20, but the H21 will be an MRV client in the future.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. * 123 8.18%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *241 16.03%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 113 7.52%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 971 64.60%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. *55 3.66%*
Voters: 1503

Replies 1,656 
Views 52,365

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
Views 146,826


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## GrumpyBear

I would have sworn a few weeks ago, people said once this topic was no longer a sticky, it would die off in days. Looks like its still going on strong, and NO word on what will be so great we will all forget about DLB.


----------



## elaundar

While it might seem like an inconsequential feature, the dual line buffer issue is the one thing holding up my switch to directv from dish. I am used to it use it extensively, and expect it on a modern DVR.

What I cannot understand is how both directv and dish seem to go our of their way to tell their paying customers what they should want. Dish just finished telling us that we didn''t watch Voom (but should continue to pay for it). Directv seems to be telling you guys that you don't need this feature (or OTA, but at least there is a box for that). The sad thing is the cable companies are worse 

Anyway, if/when DLB is added, I'll make the switch.


----------



## tthunder38

GrumpyBear said:


> I would have sworn a few weeks ago, people said once this topic was no longer a sticky, it would die off in days. Looks like its still going on strong, and NO word on what will be so great we will all forget about DLB.


This thread is not going to die out because DLB is the thing that more subscribers want than any other option and they are going to continue to be vocal about it.


----------



## tthunder38

elaundar said:


> While it might seem like an inconsequential feature, the dual line buffer issue is the one thing holding up my switch to directv from dish. I am used to it use it extensively, and expect it on a modern DVR.
> 
> Same here. I have HR's at my office but I am not upgrading at home until D* includes a feature that was included in DVR's from ten years ago. A major oversight on their part to not include this feature in the HR series


----------



## ATARI

I see the "something better than DLB" has dropped off the first page, but the original DLB thread is still going.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> I see the "something better than DLB" has dropped off the first page, but the original DLB thread is still going.


Something better has dropped off, as the only things people were talking about, were how to record more, and share the recordings. NOT even close to replacing DLB. Only Reason I haven't made the change myself, and only for the NFL ST, is DLB, or maybe QLB , I can force the family to use a new system. They wont be happy about it, Brother in law has a HR20 and none of us like the interface at all, but for NFL ST, I am willing to give it a try. I think I have a workaround, but the crazy thing is I would have to use 2 HR2x to replace a single ViP622. THATS Crazy. There are a few other features, but wont list them here though.


----------



## troman

OK here's a case study for DLB (maybe this has already been discussed):

Last night, my HR20-700 was simultaneously recording Lost and American Idol. I was watching AI, but behind by about 30 minutes (we watch alot of programs using time-shift vs long after they are recorded). So at the end of the 2 hour finale, they announce the winner, and lo and behold, the recording stops right before the winner's name is announced! (Evidently the program exceeded the scheduled time).

So... I exit the recording hoping to catch the end of AI using the Buffer, but the HR20 was buffering Channel 7 (where the Lost broadcast was) instead of Fox! Had it been a dual buffer, both would be recording of course.

Now, I also have a SD DirecTivo, and I set that up with the same season passes as the HR20 as a backup. So I went to the DirecTivo unit, and there was the buffer for Fox, so I rewound and successfully watched the the end of AI.

So sure, I could have set up the season pass with an extended time using recording options, or recorded whatever program followed AI. But my feeling is that DLB would make the HR20 alot more user friendly, and more reliable, at least in the way I tend to use it.


----------



## Nicholsen

Rock and roll, and the BLB thread, can never die.

This is something all "modern" DVRs have. Someone asked my sarcastically, "why not three or four tuners, each with its own buffer?"

I would definitely like that. I already run two DVR's (an HR10 and an HR21), and would prefer to have one unit (or two linked units) with bigger internal disks, 4 tuners, and an LB (with a 30 min to 120 min with user variable length) for each tuner with one remote.

This is not a pipe dream, it's just a matter of software implementation (and some communication between the two boxes. This type of capability would help me get over the loss of my beloved TIVO with DLB, while I wait for usable slo-mo and a 30 second skip that works. (One suggestion, maybe it should really be 28.5 seconds per skip, so that it lands at the right place after allowing for user reaction time.)


----------



## Rich

GrumpyBear said:


> I think I have a workaround, but the crazy thing is I would have to use 2 HR2x to replace a single ViP622. THATS Crazy.


Why would you need two 20/21s? This is a serious question. I've never used DLBs and can't understand why recording two football games at the same time doesn't give you the same result as DLBs (I do know what they are and how they work).

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

troman said:


> OK here's a case study for DLB (maybe this has already been discussed):
> 
> Last night, my HR20-700 was simultaneously recording Lost and American Idol. I was watching AI, but behind by about 30 minutes (we watch alot of programs using time-shift vs long after they are recorded). So at the end of the 2 hour finale, they announce the winner, and lo and behold, the recording stops right before the winner's name is announced! (Evidently the program exceeded the scheduled time).
> 
> So... I exit the recording hoping to catch the end of AI using the Buffer, but the HR20 was buffering Channel 7 (where the Lost broadcast was) instead of Fox! Had it been a dual buffer, both would be recording of course.
> 
> Now, I also have a SD DirecTivo, and I set that up with the same season passes as the HR20 as a backup. So I went to the DirecTivo unit, and there was the buffer for Fox, so I rewound and successfully watched the the end of AI.
> 
> So sure, I could have set up the season pass with an extended time using recording options, or recorded whatever program followed AI. But my feeling is that DLB would make the HR20 alot more user friendly, and more reliable, at least in the way I tend to use it.


Great example! I'm sure in the 1600+ posts of this thread and the previous DLB thread this was discussed, but you're right that this adds to the user-friendly use of the HR series that's SORELY missing!

I've been trying to use the workaround since the single buffer pause point was implemented several months ago. Sometimes it works, sometimes one wrong remote button push flushes the live buffer.

And like your example, the last minute of a recorded program can vaporize if you don't have the subsequent program recording.

Just give us a button (down-arrow?) to switch between tuners even if the second buffer is smaller!! It's got to be easier than futzing with sharing media or the absolutely useless Active channel.


----------



## Rich

Nicholsen said:


> 30 second skip that works. (One suggestion, maybe it should really be 28.5 seconds per skip, so that it lands at the right place after allowing for user reaction time.)


Not sure about the skip, but the slip is not often 30 seconds as advertised. I watch a lot of fights and by pressing the slip twice after a round ends I usually come back to live action at around 2:56 of the next round and the error seems to get greater the more slips you stack. But, I have come to like the slip, now if they could just stabilize it at 30 seconds...

I just tried the skip again and it is still really sloooow compared to my SD TiVos. Back to the slip.

Auto correction on the slip usually puts you in the correct place. Don't have any idea if that works on the skip.

Rich


----------



## tthunder38

rich584 said:


> Why would you need two 20/21s? This is a serious question. I've never used DLBs and can't understand why recording two football games at the same time doesn't give you the same result as DLBs (I do know what they are and how they work).
> 
> Rich


So you have the capability of watching both games at the same time if your plasma/lcd is set up for PIP. At least that is what I would use it for. Watch a play flip channels watch another play. Back it up and use slo mo to see if he really did make the catch or not. But of course whether the catch was made or not is going to subjective based on which team you're pulling for.


----------



## dennisj00

rich584 said:


> Why would you need two 20/21s? This is a serious question. I've never used DLBs and can't understand why recording two football games at the same time doesn't give you the same result as DLBs (I do know what they are and how they work).
> 
> Rich


Just as in the prior example, recording two games doesn't always get the end of the games -- unless you've recorded (or extended the recording time) the subsequent programs . . . and sports events often shift the remaining schedule so you've got to keep changing things.

With DLB it was EASY to watch two things without checking schedules or recording or deleting ANYTHING! And not miss a beat.


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> Why would you need two 20/21s? This is a serious question. I've never used DLBs and can't understand why recording two football games at the same time doesn't give you the same result as DLBs (I do know what they are and how they work).
> 
> Rich


Because when I watch I don't really watch just 2 games I flip around franticly sometimes changing the anchor tuner 5-10 times a Sunday . Having to clean up all of the recordings would suck .


----------



## GrumpyBear

rich584 said:


> Why would you need two 20/21s? This is a serious question. I've never used DLBs and can't understand why recording two football games at the same time doesn't give you the same result as DLBs (I do know what they are and how they work).
> 
> Rich


1. I don't want to record both of them, as a matter of a fact I don't want to record either one of them. I want to enjoy one game, and swap over to another game. Rewind if I want to, Pause the 1st one while I check out a game or maybe even 2 on the other LIVE Buffer. 
Or during a Nascar Race, I can be outside during most of the race, working or cooking if I want to jump in every so often to catch up, and family enjoys what they want to watch, and then I can sit down for the last 40 or so laps.

2. Reasoning for 2 HR21's, is I can have one set to one Video in, and the other set to different Video in. Each one set to a different RF so I can create macro's that will allow me create DLB with the recievers.

I don't want to have record 2 shows. I don't to have to rewind everytime I leave main tuner to 2nd tuner, cause you can't pause it and leave it to check out what is being recorded on the other tuner. When you jump back to the 1st tuner its LIVE again, no buffering.


----------



## Nicholsen

The DLB thing is sort of like channel surfing. If you watch alone, its great. With more than one, it can drive people in the room crazy

Depending on what is happening, I will often keep an eye on 3 or even 4 games at once. I usually have the big "national" game that I leave in tuner one (which I could also record.) I then watch another two or even three games out of tuner two, live.

An NFL games runs 180 minutes, but only 60 minutes are on the clock. Of those 60 minutes, the players are set or playing only about 30 minutes Watching "the action" in 3 games in 3 hours is no problem. (I think D* even has a broadcast on Monday where the cut each game down to about 30 minutes, nothing but the action with all of the time-outs, dead time between plays, etc, cut out.

The real issue is when games get close in the 4th or go into OT. You really cannot follow that by setting recordings in the AM (I am on the west coast). You have to be ready to change both tuners at the end of the game, and be willing to miss the start of the afternoon games (no big deal IMHO).

If you just follow your "home" team in another market, DLB is no big deal. If you are in a fantasy league, a rabid NFL fan, or place an occasional bet, its a must have, as it approaches the experience in a sports bar. I can walk to several great bars where I live, so I may just opt out of Sunday Ticket this year.

One last thought, some of the people I have over (or call to razz me as my team looses during the games) object to "recorded" sport events. I think that's kind of silly, but they are my guests and I aim to please. The DLB lets you watch 2 big games "live" or nearly "live," which effectively resolves that problem.


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> Because when I watch I don't really watch just 2 games I flip around franticly sometimes changing the anchor tuner 5-10 times a Sunday . Having to clean up all of the recordings would suck .


What he said.


----------



## Rich

tthunder38 said:


> So you have the capability of watching both games at the same time if your plasma/lcd is set up for PIP.


But even using the DLBs, wouldn't you need two DVRs to do that? You only have one output signal from a DVR whether it has DLBs or not, no? I do understand how DLBs work, but have never really used them.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Just as in the prior example, recording two games doesn't always get the end of the games -- unless you've recorded (or extended the recording time) the subsequent programs . . . and sports events often shift the remaining schedule so you've got to keep changing things.
> 
> With DLB it was EASY to watch two things without checking schedules or recording or deleting ANYTHING! And not miss a beat.


I record every football and baseball game for six hours. On rare occasions, I have missed the end of rain delayed baseball games.

Rich


----------



## tthunder38

rich584 said:


> But even using the DLBs, wouldn't you need two DVRs to do that? You only have one output signal from a DVR whether it has DLBs or not, no? I do understand how DLBs work, but have never really used them.
> 
> Rich


No Rich if you have two buffers you can watch two programs running live, paused, recorded or any combination threreof provided the hardware/software in the DVR is set up to allow you to do that. I'm doing it now on eight year old equipment. And that is what really irrates the crap out of me about the HR series. The technology is there for DLB's and has been for years but some brainiac at D* decided not to include it with this generation of receivers.


----------



## Rich

tthunder38 said:


> No Rich if you have two buffers you can watch two programs running live, paused, recorded or any combination threreof provided the hardware/software in the DVR is set up to allow you to do that. I'm doing it now on eight year old equipment. And that is what really irrates the crap out of me about the HR series. The technology is there for DLB's and has been for years but some brainiac at D* decided not to include it with this generation of receivers.


You've got a TiVo that has two separate video outputs?

Rich


----------



## puffnstuff

tthunder38 said:


> No Rich if you have two buffers you can watch two programs running live, paused, recorded or any combination threreof provided the hardware/software in the DVR is set up to allow you to do that. I'm doing it now on eight year old equipment. And that is what really irrates the crap out of me about the HR series. The technology is there for DLB's and has been for years but some brainiac at D* decided not to include it with this generation of receivers.


Can't be done on any DVR that DTV has because they don't have video outputs for each tuner ( talking about PIP ) unless it was a software upgrade for it .


----------



## tthunder38

rich584 said:


> You've got a TiVo that has two separate video outputs?
> 
> Rich


Its not a tivo. I've had a couple of those over the years and the UTV is very similar to tivo only better  Its called Ultimate TV. That was something D* offered several years ago. I've had the equipment eight years and never had a problem. Biggest thing with me right now is no hi def.


----------



## tthunder38

puffnstuff said:


> Can't be done on any DVR that DTV has because they don't have video outputs for each tuner ( talking about PIP ) unless it was a software upgrade for it .


Let me put it this way....when I go home to night I'm gonna be watching Lost on the big screen and have the Braves in PIP. I might pause Lost for a pit stop then pause the braves for a beer run. The PIP is created in the UTV receiver (even has a PIP & swap button on the D* remote). I may not be using the proper terminology but I do know what i've been watching for the last eight years. Two screens coming out of one box.  And iI want to be able to do that in hi def


----------



## puffnstuff

tthunder38 said:


> Let me put it this way....when I go home to night I'm gonna be watching Lost on the big screen and have the Braves in PIP. I might pause Lost for a pit stop then pause the braves for a beer run. The PIP is created in the UTV receiver (even has a PIP & swap button on the D* remote). I may not be using the proper terminology but I do know what i've been watching for the last eight years. Two screens coming out of one box.  And iI want to be able to do that in hi def


The problem is you confused everybody that has never used a UTV ( greatest DVR ever ) See what we want is the ability to retain the background tuner's buffer (with or without PIP )when you hit live TV or whatever button to switch to the other tuner's buffer to a different channel . With the UTV you could not do this unless you always had the PIP box on the screen . Whenever you swapped screens on the UTV you are switching tuners and there buffers . But as soon as you turn off PIP the other tuner's buffer disappears .


----------



## tthunder38

puffnstuff said:


> The problem is you confused everybody that has never used a UTV ( greatest DVR ever ) See what we want is the ability to retain the background tuner when you hit live TV or whatever button to switch to the other tuner to a different channel . With the UTV you could not do this unless you always had the PIP box on the screen . Whenever you swapped screens on the UTV you are switching tuners . But as soon as you turn off PIP the other tuner disappears .[/QUOTE
> 
> Excellent description.....I never really thought it through that far. That would be make what I currently have even better......which makes me want it even more!! :icon_da:


----------



## puffnstuff

tthunder38 said:


> puffnstuff said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is you confused everybody that has never used a UTV ( greatest DVR ever ) See what we want is the ability to retain the background tuner when you hit live TV or whatever button to switch to the other tuner to a different channel . With the UTV you could not do this unless you always had the PIP box on the screen . Whenever you swapped screens on the UTV you are switching tuners . But as soon as you turn off PIP the other tuner disappears .[/QUOTE
> 
> Excellent description.....I never really thought it through that far. That would be make what I currently have even better......which makes me want it even more!! :icon_da:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah , I was amazed when my TIVO got it ! Even more amazed the HR-20 doesn't have it . Now I'm just waiting for something better .
Click to expand...


----------



## puffnstuff

Beetlejuice , Beetlejuice , Beetlejuice . Nothing happened .


----------



## tthunder38

puffnstuff said:


> Even more amazed the HR-20 doesn't have it .


And that one sentence sums it up very nicely!

I have a whole other story on that but we'll save it for another day.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> Yeah , I was amazed when my TIVO got it ! Even more amazed the HR-20 doesn't have it . Now I'm just waiting for something better .


I went back and looked at some of the archives (other forums) at the discussions about the dual tuner TiVo's.

This would be 2001-2002 time frame. There was a lot of discussion/questions/lamenting accessing the second tuner. It was promised but took a while to get.

Did you have your TiVo at that time?

I got mine in '03 so it already was working.

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

MicroBeta said:


> I went back and looked at some of the archives (other forums) at the discussions about the dual tuner TiVo's.
> 
> This would be 2001-2002 time frame. There was a lot of discussion/questions/lamenting accessing the second tuner. It was promised but took a while to get.
> 
> Did you have your TiVo at that time?
> 
> I got mine in '03 so it already was working.
> 
> Mike


Yep got it in December of 1999 I believe . After that I got the UTV unit when it came out ( Oct . 2000 ) . I remember when I could not access the second tuner and I was mad and called almost every week about it . So let's see it took about 2 and a half years for them and the HR20 has been out for 22 months so about 8 more months and we will all be happy .


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> Yep got it in December of 1999 I believe . After that I got the UTV unit when it came out ( Oct . 2000 ) . I remember when I could not access the second tuner and I was mad and called almost every week about it . So let's see it took about 2 and a half years for them and the HR20 has been out for 22 months so about 8 more months and we will all be happy .


Of course, because 8 months from now D* will unveil the HR30, which just happens to have DLB. Of course, it will cost you $299 to 'upgrade'.

No, I'm not bitter, I'm realistic. :grin:


----------



## Rich

tthunder38 said:


> Its not a tivo. I've had a couple of those over the years and the UTV is very similar to tivo only better  Its called Ultimate TV. That was something D* offered several years ago. I've had the equipment eight years and never had a problem. Biggest thing with me right now is no hi def.


Ah, that explains it. I had UTV DVRs for a couple years, but they all went south and when I tried to replace them, I got TiVos back. I did like them better than the TiVos, but they just didn't last. Think I had eight of them at one time.

I hadn't discovered this forum at the time and was corresponding with several people who were having the same problems I was. In fact, we were even calling each other on the phone trying to solve our problems.

Another odd thing is I rarely have problems with computers. Never had a hard drive go bad and have been able to fix any problems myself.

Rich


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> Of course, because 8 months from now D* will unveil the HR30, which just happens to have DLB. Of course, it will cost you $299 to 'upgrade'.
> 
> No, I'm not bitter, I'm realistic. :grin:


No no no no,
The Realistic option is to wait for the HR2X to be upgraded. THERE IS NO REASON to think that a new machine will becoming out, as the HR2X is fully upgradable, and D* has a point of making sure it will NEVER be outdated. The Platform is the basis for the FUTURE of D*, and will be around forever. 
Didn't you know this. So don't worry about having to spend money or having to wait for a new reciever, as the HR2X will work be able to do it ALL. 
So be Please be REALISTIC, in the future.


----------



## David MacLeod

GrumpyBear said:


> No no no no,
> The Realistic option is to wait for the HR2X to be upgraded. THERE IS NO REASON to think that a new machine will becoming out, as the HR2X is fully upgradable, and D* has a point of making sure it will NEVER be outdated. The Platform is the basis for the FUTURE of D*, and will be around forever.
> Didn't you know this. So don't worry about having to spend money or having to wait for a new reciever, as the HR2X will work be able to do it ALL.
> So be Please be REALISTIC, in the future.


did you have a hard time keeping a straight face while typing that ?


----------



## Jeremy W

David MacLeod said:


> did you have a hard time keeping a straight face while typing that ?


He probably did, because he has no clue how correct what he typed actually is.


----------



## rustynails

GrumpyBear said:


> No no no no,
> The Realistic option is to wait for the HR2X to be upgraded. THERE IS NO REASON to think that a new machine will becoming out, as the HR2X is fully upgradable, and D* has a point of making sure it will NEVER be outdated. The Platform is the basis for the FUTURE of D*, and will be around forever.
> Didn't you know this. So don't worry about having to spend money or having to wait for a new reciever, as the HR2X will work be able to do it ALL.
> So be Please be REALISTIC, in the future.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> No no no no,
> The Realistic option is to wait for the HR2X to be upgraded. THERE IS NO REASON to think that a new machine will becoming out, as the HR2X is fully upgradable, and D* has a point of making sure it will NEVER be outdated. The Platform is the basis for the FUTURE of D*, and will be around forever.
> Didn't you know this. So don't worry about having to spend money or having to wait for a new reciever, as the HR2X will work be able to do it ALL.
> So be Please be REALISTIC, in the future.


 :sure:


----------



## luckydob

Nothing better is coming. Nothing really could be better then DLB at this time. This "better" thing has been touted for almost 2 years now...don't hold your breath on "better" coming. This is their way of keeping you around...It's like the boyfriend that tells his girlfriend that he would like to get married; "someday". So, "someday" we will have something "better". 

Blah...blah...blah.


----------



## Jeremy W

luckydob said:


> Nothing better is coming. Nothing really could be better then DLB at this time.


Good thing you're so confident.  I wasn't aware that DLB was the pinnacle of dual-tuner DVR technology, and nothing could ever surpass it.


luckydob said:


> This "better" thing has been touted for almost 2 years now


Actually, the time the CTO mentioned it in the chat was the very first time it was ever mentioned. It hasn't even been 2 months, let alone 2 years.


----------



## Drew2k

Jeremy W said:


> Good thing you're so confident.  I wasn't aware that DLB was the pinnacle of dual-tuner DVR technology, and nothing could ever surpass it.
> 
> Actually, the time the CTO mentioned it in the chat was the very first time it was ever mentioned. It hasn't even been 2 months, let alone 2 years.


Going back to the original DLB thread there were posts from Earl that the reason we don't have DLB is because DIRECTV chose not to implement it because it would interfere with another planned feature. Although not labeled at the time as "something better" than DLB, this same feature is undoubtedly what the CTO was referring to .


----------



## Lord Vader

I'm still amazed that DLB would "interfere" with another planned feature. Makes me wonder if the HR2X series is not as technologically advanced as it otherwise is believed.


----------



## luckydob

Actually Earl mentioned it months and months ago...months...many, many months ago. So it's been at least a year and nothing has come. Why be confident when so many things are still wrong with the DVR and there has been this "better" thing looming for months and months? And, if DLB is not the pinnacle, why not at least have it when everyone else does? Seems that it should be there as it was previously. I get it...you don't like DLB. I do, as do a MAJORITY of people on DBSTalk, which is why there isn't, IMO, anything better. If there is anything "better", please let us know what it is instead of dragging us along. Until then it's getting old on the promise of "something" that is "better" but can't be mentioned. It can't be mentioned, because they probably don't have anything in mind other than keeping you around while they make promises of this "great, better than DLB thing".


----------



## Jeremy W

Lord Vader said:


> I'm still amazed that DLB would "interfere" with another planned feature. Makes me wonder if the HR2X series is not as technologically advanced as it otherwise is believed.


If "something better" involves the use of both tuners, which obviously *must* be the case if it's going to replace DLB, then it's incredibly easy to see how it would interfere with DLB. It doesn't matter how technologically advanced a system is, if it only has two tuners, and a feature is being developed that requires both of them, another feature that would also require both of them is going to interfere. There is no way around that.

You're basically saying "I'm still amazed that buffering two channels on a dual-tuner DVR would interfere with buffering two more."


----------



## dennisj00

I see no reason why we can't have DLB and the option to use the 'something better'. If the something better negates using DLB - so be it - at least we have the option to use DLB just like any other DVR on the market.

Let us know what the 'something better' is or give us a button and a buffer to see what's going on on the other tuner!


----------



## NickD

Jeremy W said:


> If "something better" involves the use of both tuners, which obviously *must* be the case if it's going to replace DLB, then it's incredibly easy to see how it would interfere with DLB. It doesn't matter how technologically advanced a system is, if it only has two tuners, and a feature is being developed that requires both of them, another feature that would also require both of them is going to interfere. There is no way around that.
> 
> You're basically saying "I'm still amazed that buffering two channels on a dual-tuner DVR would interfere with buffering two more."


I see your point, but if it is all software then why not give us DLB until the something new is ready. Then the software could overwrite the DLB with its new programming and delete DLB as we know it with the something new software.


----------



## Jeremy W

NickD said:


> I see your point, but if it is all software then why not give us DLB until the something new is ready.


I have no idea.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

NickD said:


> I see your point, but if it is all software then why not give us DLB until the something new is ready. Then the software could overwrite the DLB with its new programming and delete DLB as we know it with the something new software.


I've often wondered that myself.

I guessing here but maybe they don't want to devote the work to do the coding on something they're just going to replace with "something better".

Mike

is that codeing or coding....:scratchin


----------



## Jhon69

Jeremy W said:


> If "something better" involves the use of both tuners, which obviously *must* be the case if it's going to replace DLB, then it's incredibly easy to see how it would interfere with DLB. It doesn't matter how technologically advanced a system is, if it only has two tuners, and a feature is being developed that requires both of them, another feature that would also require both of them is going to interfere. There is no way around that.
> 
> You're basically saying "I'm still amazed that buffering two channels on a dual-tuner DVR would interfere with buffering two more."


I would like DirecTV to give us the ability to see what's on all 3 tuners.:sure:


----------



## ptalbot

MicroBeta said:


> I've often wondered that myself.
> 
> I guessing here but maybe they don't want to devote the work to do the coding on something they're just going to replace with "something better".
> 
> Mike
> 
> is that codeing or coding....:scratchin


It's 'coding' you got it right! As for putting DLB in and then taking it out later, I'm sure that's a non-starter, even if the code to enable DLB is fully baked right now. You wouldn't want to put a feature like that into the box and then yank it later on.....oh wait....nevermind.


----------



## captain_video

I rarely use the buffer feature in any of my DVRs so it matters not whether or not it works on both tuners. I already record too much crap that I never have time to watch anyway so any feature that lends itself to recording more crap is something I don't personally need. I figure whatever I have set up to record as season passes is more than sufficient, if not overkill. Besides, I rarely watch live TV except for sporting events so I wouldn't be looking to record a live broadcast on the spur of the moment.


----------



## GrumpyBear

captain_video said:


> I rarely use the buffer feature in any of my DVRs so it matters not whether or not it works on both tuners. I already record too much crap that I never have time to watch anyway so any feature that lends itself to recording more crap is something I don't personally need. I figure whatever I have set up to record as season passes is more than sufficient, if not overkill. Besides, I rarely watch live TV except for sporting events so I wouldn't be looking to record a live broadcast on the spur of the moment.


With DLB maybe you would record less. I think its funny that only less than 10% think its NOT a worthwhile feature. Yet its such a simple thing to do, and the machine can do it already with just a few code changes, you would think they would turn it on already.


----------



## Rich

GrumpyBear said:


> With DLB maybe you would record less. I think its funny that only less than 10% think its NOT a worthwhile feature. Yet its such a simple thing to do, and the machine can do it already with just a few code changes, you would think they would turn it on already.


Just found out that DLBs are a proprietary function of TiVos and since D* doesn't really have the agreement in place with TiVo that would allow them to use DLBs on 20/21s...

Rich


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> Just found out that DLBs are a proprietary function of TiVos and since D* doesn't really have the agreement in place with TiVo that would allow them to use DLBs on 20/21s...
> 
> Rich


Do you have a link or a reference? I only ask because it has been stated numerous times that the lack of DLB's is a programming decision by DirecTv, it has nothing to do with patents or proprietary functions. Of course that argument is supported by the fact that every other DVR out there has the function whether or not they use TiVo software.


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> Just found out that DLBs are a proprietary function of TiVos and since D* doesn't really have the agreement in place with TiVo that would allow them to use DLBs on 20/21s...
> 
> Rich


That is incorrect. First, most other DVRs on the market, from DISH's to cable companies', have DLB. Second, DirecTV and TIVO have licensing agreements for the next few years. This negates any TIVO proprietary issues.about which DirecTV would otherwise be concerned.


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> Just found out that DLBs are a proprietary function of TiVos and since D* doesn't really have the agreement in place with TiVo that would allow them to use DLBs on 20/21s...
> 
> Rich


Proof ? LInk ? I could have swore we have already went through this before and it's not the reason . Can we do a thread called "What we do and don't know about DLB's " so we know some sort of facts and not have to read a millon post to find things we already know ? I think that would help with all the crazy speculation that we hear . I mean isn't this like the fifth time somebody has brought up the TIVO thing .


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> ...this like the fifth time...


You meant fiftieth, right?


----------



## puffnstuff

ATARI said:


> You meant fiftieth, right?


Yes I did ! :lol:


----------



## Rich

ATARI said:


> You meant fiftieth, right?


Gotta get off subject here. What are "banner ads"? I've seen this so many times in your posts and don't have a clue.

Rich


----------



## kanderna

rich584 said:


> Gotta get off subject here. What are "banner ads"? I've seen this so many times in your posts and don't have a clue.
> 
> Rich


Typically banner ads are the big ads you see at the top of websites, but if I'm not mistaken he's referring to the ads that have started appearing in our guides (mainly for the game channels).


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> That is incorrect. First, most other DVRs on the market, from DISH's to cable companies', have DLB. Second, DirecTV and TIVO have licensing agreements for the next few years. This negates any TIVO proprietary issues.about which DirecTV would otherwise be concerned.


I might well be incorrect. But the source of that info seems reliable. My local provider of cable, Cablevision, does provide dual tuner DVRs and I called TiVo yesterday in a failed attempt to verify my info and was told by them that many of their TiVos do not have dual tuners.

I do believe you are incorrect about the D* and TiVo agreements. As far as I can find out, D* will merely send out signals to all the TiVos until they get rid of them by attrition. Just as they do with UTV. Try sending a TiVo or a UTV DVR back for a replacement and see what you get. An R15. Attrition.

Rich


----------



## Rich

kanderna said:


> Typically banner ads are the big ads you see at the top of websites


I knew that.



> but if I'm not mistaken he's referring to the ads that have started appearing in our guides (mainly for the game channels).


Ah, if that's what he's talking about, I must agree. I've seen them for more than game channels. And what's really disturbing is that one of the HBO feeds now says that we can tune to a MPEG2 channel in the 70s and get the programming that was previously available on the the HBO channel in MPEG4. I think it comes up on 509. Just checked and now I'm only getting two HBO feeds and the notice is gone. 509 is no longer listed at all.

Rich


----------



## say-what

rich584 said:


> And what's really disturbing is that one of the HBO feeds now says that we can tune to a MPEG2 channel in the 70s and get the programming that was previously available on the the HBO channel in MPEG4. I think it comes up on 509. Just checked and now I'm only getting two HBO feeds and the notice is gone. 509 is no longer listed at all.
> 
> Rich


Actually, 70 & 509 are both the same mpeg2 feed for HBO. 509 was nothing more than a mirror of 70. In fact, 70, 501 & 509 are/were all mirrored mpeg2 feeds for HBO, these have not yet migrated to mpeg4. Same with Showtime, 71, 537 & 541(??) are/were all mirrored mpeg2 feeds for Showtime. None of these are in mpeg4 yet.


----------



## Rich

say-what said:


> Actually, 70 & 509 are both the same mpeg2 feed for HBO. 509 was nothing more than a mirror of 70. In fact, 70, 501 & 509 are/were all mirrored mpeg2 feeds for HBO, these have not yet migrated to mpeg4. Same with Showtime, 71, 537 & 541(??) are/were all mirrored mpeg2 feeds for Showtime. None of these are in mpeg4 yet.


Argg! I thought all the Hi Def movie channels were MPEG4s except the ones in the 70s.

Rich


----------



## ATARI

kanderna said:


> Typically banner ads are the big ads you see at the top of websites, but if I'm not mistaken he's referring to the ads that have started appearing in our guides (mainly for the game channels).


I have update my sig to be more specific as "Guide Banner Ads"


----------



## Que

rich584 said:


> I might well be incorrect. But the source of that info seems reliable. My local provider of cable, Cablevision, does provide dual tuner DVRs and I called TiVo yesterday in a failed attempt to verify my info and was told by them that many of their TiVos do not have dual tuners.
> 
> I do believe you are incorrect about the D* and TiVo agreements. As far as I can find out, D* will merely send out signals to all the TiVos until they get rid of them by attrition. Just as they do with UTV. Try sending a TiVo or a UTV DVR back for a replacement and see what you get. An R15. Attrition.
> 
> Rich


Here is the list of DVR that have DLB and yes DirecTV +(plus) line is the *ONLY DVR (line) that does not have DLB. *

TIVO line
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## Rich

ATARI said:


> I have update my sig to be more specific as "Guide Banner Ads"


Thanx, you really had me going there. I kept looking for banners on the programs and all I could see was the banners on the bottom of the screen that advertised new programs and such. Wish they'd do away with them too.

Rich


----------



## Rich

The two people I spoke to at TiVo's tech line didn't sound like the brightest CSRs. One didn't know what a DLB was. The other told me that several models have just one tuner. Am trying again and if the results are the same, I will bow out of this argument. Just out of curiosity, did all the below mentioned DVR manufacturers have to come to an agreement with TiVo to have DLBs? If you know.

Rich



Que said:


> Here is the list of DVR that have DLB and yes DirecTV +(plus) line is the *ONLY DVR (line) that does not have DLB. *
> 
> TIVO line
> AT&T Homezone DVR
> Dish Network - ViP622
> Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## Nicholsen

I haven't reviewed the whole thread, which is huge.

However, has D* ever provided an explanation (formally or informally) as to (i) why DLB was dropped and (ii) why it can't simply provide a software upgrade to implement it? Is it a problem with the hardware design?

Given that it appears all of the competitors have DLB, it is baffling why D* would drop this feature from the HR2x boxes.


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> The two people I spoke to at TiVo's tech line didn't sound like the brightest CSRs. One didn't know what a DLB was. The other told me that several models have just one tuner. Am trying again and if the results are the same, I will bow out of this argument. Just out of curiosity, did all the below mentioned DVR manufacturers have to come to an agreement with TiVo to have DLBs? If you know.
> 
> Rich


I believe that only the original stand alone Tivo's are the only one's that only have a single tuner ( still use it today ) . As for other manufactures I don't think so they just do it in different ways . Also since that original Tivo I haven't seen any other DVR without DLB . One more thing your on this site so you know how much a CSR knows about anything .


----------



## puffnstuff

Nicholsen said:


> I haven't reviewed the whole thread, which is huge.
> 
> However, has D* ever provided an explanation (formally or informally) as to (i) why DLB was dropped and (ii) why it can't simply provide a software upgrade to implement it? Is it a problem with the hardware design?
> 
> Given that it appears all of the competitors have DLB, it is baffling why D* would drop this feature from the HR2x boxes.


This is exactly why we need a sticky about what we do and don't know about DLB 1 Because it would mess with a future feature 2 They have said that it is possible but refuse to give us anymore info than what we got in chat a couple weeks ago when a CTO said that something better is coming or something like that . Also this is the second thread on this and still nothing from Directv . At first they said they were working on it so I kept my HR20 . Now here I am still waiting and pissed off about Directv and thier lies .


----------



## Rich

puffnstuff said:


> I believe that only the original stand alone Tivo's are the only one's that only have a single tuner ( still use it today ) . As for other manufactures I don't think so they just do it in different ways . Also since that original Tivo I haven't seen any other DVR without DLB . One more thing your on this site so you know how much a CSR knows about anything .


I just called TiVo's tech line and they might actually be worse than D*'s. I give up. He did babble something about still having some TiVos that had single tuners. Probably talking about the one you are.

Rich


----------



## gfrang

In order for me to use a dual buffer i would need two brains. I have trouble concentrating on one show at a time. But if enough people want it why not?


----------



## jimb726

puffnstuff said:


> This is exactly why we need a sticky about what we do and don't know about DLB 1 Because it would mess with a future feature 2 They have said that it is possible but refuse to give us anymore info than what we got in chat a couple weeks ago when a CTO said that something better is coming or something like that . Also this is the second thread on this and still nothing from Directv . At first they said they were working on it so I kept my HR20 . Now here I am still waiting and pissed off about Directv and thier lies .


In all fairness I dont think that DirecTv has ever said that they were working on it. I might be wrong but we have had numerous people who claim to know people, etc. But I dont think DirecTv has ever come out and said they were working on it, just as they have never come out and said why they never included it.


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> I might well be incorrect. But the source of that info seems reliable. My local provider of cable, Cablevision, does provide dual tuner DVRs and I called TiVo yesterday in a failed attempt to verify my info and was told by them that many of their TiVos do not have dual tuners.
> 
> I do believe you are incorrect about the D* and TiVo agreements. As far as I can find out, D* will merely send out signals to all the TiVos until they get rid of them by attrition. Just as they do with UTV. Try sending a TiVo or a UTV DVR back for a replacement and see what you get. An R15. Attrition.
> 
> Rich


I am not incorrect about DirecTV and TIVO. It has nothing to do with these so-called signals to which you refer. You obviously have no awareness of their licensing agreement, one that Earl has often explained here. He also has repeatedly explained that the lack of DLB has NOTHING to do with TIVO's rights or patents, which are utilized by DirecTV in their expansive licensing agreement.


----------



## puffnstuff

jimb726 said:


> In all fairness I dont think that DirecTv has ever said that they were working on it. I might be wrong but we have had numerous people who claim to know people, etc. But I dont think DirecTv has ever come out and said they were working on it, just as they have never come out and said why they never included it.


Sorry about that , Directv CSR's ( you know how that goes ) told me before I bought it ( also before I found this site ) , the guys at Best Buy said it , and then Earl himself said that they were working on it . So who else should I have to ask ? Also I believe that Earl did know why we don't have it , so they came out and told someone .


----------



## Jimmmmbo!

Seems to me that the mainstream public doesn't even know what DLB is, therefore they could care less. If they knew what it was, it might be more valuable. I know I learned about it real quick when I got my HR10 a long time ago, but my wife didn't even know about it until I told her about it not more than a few months ago, and we both have have had DTivo S2s for years.

Ignorance is bliss. How do we get the mainstream public to see the light?


----------



## Jeremy W

Jimmmmbo! said:


> Seems to me that the mainstream public doesn't even know what DLB is, therefore they could care less. If they knew what it was, it might be more valuable.


I disagree. Even if you explained it to the general public, most of them still won't care. It's a niche feature.


----------



## bradfjoh

Jeremy W said:


> I disagree. Even if you explained it to the general public, most of them still won't care. It's a niche feature.


I dunno. When my 61 year old father got his first DVR, the first thing he told me about was when he figured out what the swap button did... 

Then he "upgraded" to the HR20 and his first question to me was where's the swap button. I explained that this one doesn't have it and his first reply was "but it has two tuners right?"

So, people (even the non-technical types) do understand it. D* just chooses not to have the feature. I disagree with that decision.

Heck, now that I get black/grey recordings non-stop, I'm beginning to agree with people who think DLB is not that important... Yup, in the grand scheme of things, being able to actual have a DVR that records is more important. I'll wait for D* to actually get that right before I complain about DLB anymore. Baby steps HR20, baby steps.


----------



## rustynails

I'm 56 and when I switched from E to D, I sure missed the swap button and live tv button and the pip and DLB features. It may be a niche thing but I want it on my D receiver. People who have never had those features probably won't miss them!


----------



## kokishin

Jeremy,

At some point, we were ALL general public before we found DBSTalk.com. I thought DLB on my old TIVO was great BEFORE I joined DBSTalk.com.

BTW, which Onkyo are you using?



Jeremy W said:


> I disagree. Even if you explained it to the general public, most of them still won't care. It's a niche feature.


----------



## NickD

My opinion is that if D provided a box that had the capability to do DLB then when they developed a new box it should have included the same feature. They say that you are upgrading to the latest technology but in all reality, at least for those of us who miss DLB, we are not truly upgrading. An upgrade in my opinion is improving something. D has taken what appears to have become a standard on 2 tuner boxes and eliminated it, thus minimizing the full potential of having dual tuners. The one thing I agree about the mainstream is that they may not know what DLB is referring to, but they know when they can switch between tuners. My wife is a prime example, she is not a techy and she didn't know what DLB was before I told her. She does know that she misses the feature on the HR20 and doesn't understand why we don't have it since this is a box provided to us by D just like our DTivo box was.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since we now know that DLB itself is not on the radar for DirecTV ("something even better" will become available in the future, according to the source who was in a chatroom a few weeks back)....DLB is "fantasyware" at this point, and wishful thinking without any of any chance of happening. 

There's plenty of speculation in the "something better than DLB" thread.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *128 8.28%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *248 16.04%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. *117 7.57%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. *995 64.36%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 58 3.75%*
Voters: 1546

Replies 1,740
Views 55,164

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


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## Jeremy W

kokishin said:


> At some point, we were ALL general public before we found DBSTalk.com.


And thanks to DBSTalk.com, I know that the HR2x uses a Broadcom chipset, and DirecTV puts 5 HD channels on a 36mbps transponder. Do you think the general public cares about that too? The fact that we came and searched out DBSTalk.com automatically excludes us from the "general public" moniker.


kokishin said:


> BTW, which Onkyo are you using?


The TX-SR304.


----------



## smithrh

Still waiting for HD DLB here. 

Sure would like to order 2 HD DVRs, but w/o DLB, not going to do it, will stick with my DirecTivos at SD. 

Which is a shame, since I bought a great HD set about a month ago and love it.

But no DLB, no deal.


----------



## Jeremy W

smithrh said:


> Still waiting for HD DLB here.
> 
> Sure would like to order 2 HD DVRs, but w/o DLB, not going to do it, will stick with my DirecTivos at SD.
> 
> Which is a shame, since I bought a great HD set about a month ago and love it.
> 
> But no DLB, no deal.


Well then enjoy your SD.


----------



## MX727

Jeremy W said:


> The fact that we came and searched out DBSTalk.com automatically excludes us from the "general public" moniker.


So, you don't think the general public has internet access? You also don't believe they know how to use Google and you don't believe that they can type the phrase "How do I switch tuners on DirecTV?"

The first three links sent me to forums which had replies that referenced DBSTalk.

I was "general public" with respect to DirecTV. I never, ever needed to find a board about the boxes until I got the HR-20 and I couldn't figure out the remote buttons I needed to press to use what I would learn is referred to as "DLB."

When I posted a question here nearly two years ago asking how to do it, I got a reply from Earl explaining it couldn't be done. When I said, in effect "that sucks," I was politely informed that "everyone knew it wasn't going to have 'DLB' as it had been discussed here in previews of the new box."

Well, BFD, I didn't know. I didn't know what DBSTalk.com was, I'd never heard of TIVOCommunity.com, I'd didn't have a need to know that DirecTV had their own forum, and I'd never heard of DLB. From the many posts I've since found, there are many, many like me and a large number have found there way here or to other forums.

The general public *IS* searching and finding out that a feature, that they will soon learn to be labeled "DLB," is missing. They aren't happy and they eventually make their way here and vote.

I'm sick of reading posts from people trying to tell me why I shouldn't want or don't need DLB! I don't tell them that they don't need or shouldn't want the features that are important to them but that I don't care about. If you want MRV, or VOD, cool. I don't care about either but I understand why you want it and therefore I think DirecTV should come up with it ASAP.

The thing to remember is that DLB was *taken* from those of us that are "upgrading" to the new box. Don't forget that TiVo functionality was marketed to all of us by DirecTV in the previous boxes. That is one of the reasons some of us signed up with DirecTV in the prior to the new "+" series.


----------



## smithrh

Jeremy W said:


> Well then enjoy your SD.


Do you work for DirecTV now too?

Just wondering.


----------



## Jeremy W

MX727 said:


> The general public *IS* searching and finding out that a feature, that they will soon learn to be labeled "DLB," is missing. They aren't happy and they eventually make their way here and vote.


Prove it.


----------



## Jeremy W

smithrh said:


> Do you work for DirecTV now too?
> 
> Just wondering.


Yes, Earl and I got jobs with them at the same time. Troll.


----------



## bradfjoh

Jeremy W said:


> Well then enjoy your SD.


But, he doesn't have to put up with black/grey recordings on a weekly basis.


----------



## ATARI

Jeremy W said:


> Prove it.


Prove they aren't.


----------



## ATARI

Jeremy W said:


> It's a niche feature.


No it's not.


----------



## Jeremy W

bradfjoh said:


> But, he doesn't have to put up with black/grey recordings on a weekly basis.


Neither do I...


ATARI said:


> Prove they aren't.


I'm not the one making the positive claim, therefore I don't have to prove anything.


----------



## MX727

Jeremy W said:


> Prove it.


You are an above average user of the internet. Do a search. Check DirecTV's own forums. There have been at least two new users posting in new threads about "DLB" and if you look at the post count of people in this thread, you will notice that new users are continually coming into it with questions about the missing feature.

And, speaking of trolling, why do you continue to post in the DLB thread and purport that wanting DLB is wrong or that not having it isn't a big deal? To me, it is *the* deal.

No need to reply Jeremy or Bolt or whoever you are, I won't see your reply anyway.

Back on topic.

My thoughts on DLB:

I want DLB. I sent my HR-20 back and thankfully was able to get the HR-10. My commitment isn't up until September. I continue to monitor this thread and forum, hoping against hope that I won't have to go through the hassle of switching to Dish, but I will.

I watch sports. I don't care a bit about all of the other HD offerings. I really don't need HD Weather Channel, but I want to be able to switch between live games and rewind if I missed something. I do record primetime drivel, and watch it at later times, but that isn't my primary use of a DVR.

I just canceled the NFL package since it won't work in HD this year. Sure, I could watch it in SD, but this is the *only* protest I have at this point. I will cancel DirecTV this September. I'm sorry that it is going to come to that, but they don't seem to care. Of course, once I leave, I know that my brother will follow as well as my parents when their contracts are up. They have DirecTV because I was so happy with the DirecTV/Tivo boxes (SD) I had at the time. I have no hope that DirecTV will have DLB by then.

I have no illusion that I will save money or get better customer service by switching. What I will get is a DVR that does what I want. As a bonus, I will get MRV.


----------



## difficultrun

Well put MX727! If only DirecTV would listen!


----------



## Jeremy W

MX727 said:


> And, speaking of trolling, why do you continue to post in the DLB thread and purport that wanting DLB is wrong or that not having it isn't a big deal?


The topic of this thread is: *What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?*

It isn't "♥♥ DLB Lovers Club ♥♥" or "Why is DLB the best thing ever?" It just asks for your thoughts, and that's exactly what I'm providing. If you don't agree, feel free to state that, or just ignore me as you claim to have done. I hope you really have.

There are a ton of threads on here about other aspects of the DVRs where people *constantly* come in and provide a contrary opinion. That's what a discussion forum is all about.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Proof the that the avg user understands DLB. Is as easy as looking at this list

TIVO line
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network – ViP622, ViP612(only purpose is DLB) ViP722
Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)

This list is growing from all the other Vendors as well. Even Cable customers are getting into the DLB act. 
I can't believe people try to say the Avg user wont understand DLB, but they believe the Avg user will understand, and network their house for MRV, and will Network the house for Media Center support, but DLB and its single swap button is WAY to complicated.


----------



## MikeekiM

OK... with a thread this long, I am sure I am covering ground already covered...but I don't have time to get through 70+ pages...

Is the barrier to getting DLB a hardware one, or a software one?


----------



## raott

Jeremy W said:


> There are a ton of threads on here about other aspects of the DVRs where people *constantly* come in and provide a contrary opinion. That's what a discussion forum is all about.


The key difference is that the topic is a critique of D* and you are all over it providing the "contrary opinion".

Do you provide a similar "contrary opinion" on the incessant amount of pro D* spin that happens on this site or are you only here providing a "contrary opinion" because the topic involves a negative against D*.


----------



## Que

smithrh said:


> Still waiting for HD DLB here.
> 
> Sure would like to order 2 HD DVRs, but w/o DLB, not going to do it, will stick with my DirecTivos at SD.
> 
> Which is a shame, since I bought a great HD set about a month ago and love it.
> 
> But no DLB, no deal.


Do you mostly watch OTA HD? Get an HR10-250... Most of the stuff we record is OTA HD.


----------



## Que

GrumpyBear said:


> Proof the that the avg user understands DLB. Is as easy as looking at this list
> 
> TIVO line
> AT&T Homezone DVR
> Dish Network - ViP622, ViP612(only purpose is DLB) ViP722
> Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 
> This list is growing from all the other Vendors as well. Even Cable customers are getting into the DLB act.
> I can't believe people try to say the Avg user wont understand DLB, but they believe the Avg user will understand, and network their house for MRV, and will Network the house for Media Center support, but DLB and its single swap button is WAY to complicated.


Yes, that is the thing EVERY other DVR out there has this feature.......So people do know about it and use it.



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


Why not have this on your DVR?


----------



## Jeremy W

raott said:


> Do you provide a similar "contrary opinion" on the incessant amount of pro D* spin that happens on this site or are you only here providing a "contrary opinion" because the topic involves a negative against D*.


Neither. I am here to provide a contrary opinion because my opinion happens to be contrary to that of a DLB fanatic. Despite popular opinion, I am very fair in what I post. The HR2x series has been very good for me overall, so why am I supposed to bash it? The H20, on the other hand, has been nothing but trouble for me, and I am very critical of it whenever I post about it on here. I am in the middle of dealing with the Office of the President about my H20, which is something I've never resorted to in the past. That's how dissatisfied I am with it.


----------



## Flyrx7

MikeekiM said:


> OK... with a thread this long, I am sure I am covering ground already covered...but I don't have time to get through 70+ pages...
> 
> Is the barrier to getting DLB a hardware one, or a software one?


Neither, really. The barrier to DLB is Directv.
The hardware is capable of doing it, and software would just have to be coded most likely.

The true barrier may never be known, but most likely it's just not high enough on the priority list yet. If the system wasn't so buggy I'd think we'd have it by now.

Frank


----------



## MikeekiM

Flyrx7 said:


> Neither, really. The barrier to DLB is Directv.
> The hardware is capable of doing it, and software would just have to be coded most likely.
> 
> The true barrier may never be known, but most likely it's just not high enough on the priority list yet. If the system wasn't so buggy I'd think we'd have it by now.
> 
> Frank


OK...that answers my question... So if DTV decides to enable DLB, there won't be a need for new hardware... It would be a software mod/update...

Thanks!


----------



## tthunder38

Jeremy W said:


> Prove it.


Thats what brought me here......lack of an existing feature on what I thought was to be an upgrade


----------



## tabraha

DLB is a niche???? DLB is about as much a niche feature as HD is... As soon as people don't have it they miss it; even if they don't know there is a name for it like "DLB". Many friends as well as myself sorely miss the ease of use a DLB provides. People ask me how I like my "HD Box" and I give it pretty high marks overall (I don't scare them away with the reboots etc...) but as soon as they've moved from a 6-year-old Tivo DSR7000 to a HR-XX they all have brought up questions concerning DLB, they just didn't know what to call it.

Need proof of it being more significant than "niche" status? OK:

As Que posted up there are 2 polls on this topic with the oldest garnering 3,692 votes and 78% considering it "must have."

The second poll is currently with 1546 votes and 64% want it.

This thread has been on the front page since it's inception.

Sort this forum by # of posts and this thread is #1; with almost TWICE the number of second place.

Sort this forum by views and it is #1 with over 55,000 VIEWS.

Talk about this forum not being a representative sample if you want too but I don't know what other forum the average joe is gonna end up on when his HR-XX fruits out on him! Google "Directv DVR problem" and DBSTalk.com is the first result behind DirecTV themselves. That's how the majority of folks ended up on here. Heck look at "tthunder38"'s post just above mine. I came here back when I had my Tivo box on DirecTV and there was little to no traffic relatively speaking. (I can't even remember what my screen name was originally) The HR boxes have been fantastic for this forum's activity. :lol:

You want to know something even funnier? The #2 most viewed normal thread in this forum is titled "_Something better than DLB is coming to the HRs._" !!!!!!!! !rolling

Of course now that I think about it most considered DVR's a niche 6 years ago... when you look at it that way....


----------



## HarleyD

Flyrx7 said:


> Neither, really. The barrier to DLB is Directv.
> The hardware is capable of doing it, and software would just have to be coded most likely.
> 
> The true barrier may never be known, but most likely it's just not high enough on the priority list yet. If the system wasn't so buggy I'd think we'd have it by now.
> 
> Frank


In one of the very earliest discussions of DLB Earl indicated that the DirecTV braintrust had made a conscious decision not to include the feature that came to be known as DLB in the HR20. He went on to say that they had shared the underlying rationale with him and that he understood it but could not share their reasoning with us (which I understand).

Of course the fact that this rationale has never been shared by DirecTV beyond closed doors gnaws at me. There are few reasons to keep it quiet if it is a reasonable decision.

If they cannot or will not say why they chose not to include DLB I am left to assume that the "why" would tick me off. It's the conspiracy theorist in me. I came of age during Watergate. What can I say?

If the "why" would tick me off, then I am left to further infer that the decision was not made with my (the subscriber's) best interests in mind. That it was decided with an eye toward corporate expediency and not the quality/desirability of the product.

Suspiscious thinking? No doubt, but to make a decision and then steadfastly refuse to substantiate it even when faced with significant public interest and even outcry regarding that decision just looks bad. It smacks of stonewalling. Sorry can't help it. That's how it comes across to me.

I've accepted that we won't see DLB soon. I imagine not until the competitors start pointing out that DirecTV *doesn't *have dual buffers and leverage that fact as a disadvantage and shortcoming in the DirecTV brand.

Then DirecTV will finally play catch up and offer DLB either as a software upgrade to existing equipment, but more likely I suspect it will come in a newer unit that you'll have to fork over at least another $199 for the privilege of leasing (could that be the "why"??? To double-dip into the cash pool of the early adopters?  ).

But it'll be worth it to get the feature that should have been there to begin with, right?

*<<sigh>>*


----------



## HarleyD

Jeremy W said:


> The topic of this thread is: *What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?*
> 
> It isn't "♥♥ DLB Lovers Club ♥♥" or "Why is DLB the best thing ever?" It just asks for your thoughts, *and that's exactly what I'm providing*. If you don't agree, feel free to state that, or just ignore me as you claim to have done. I hope you really have.
> 
> There are a ton of threads on here about other aspects of the DVRs where people *constantly* come in and provide a contrary opinion. That's what a discussion forum is all about.


And thank God that you did because most of us were really confused as to where you stand.

This 3,459,827th iteration clears it all up.


----------



## Hemi

HarleyD,

I couldn't agree more, well said. I thought that I had read somewhere that the reason D* wouldn't allow (notice I said wouldn't and not couldn't) DLB is that they wanted to be sure of what you were watching all of the time and that with DLB they might not know which shows you were really watching and what just happened to be on the other tuner. That said, I'm sure that there is a way either by using other remote key presses like FF and RR or a statistically relevant methodology to determine what tuner you were truly interested in if not both.

Dan


----------



## Rich

MX727 said:


> I have no illusion that I will save money or get better customer service by switching. What I will get is a DVR that does what I want. As a bonus, I will get MRV.


You probably ought to check out the lawsuit that TiVo just hit Dish with. If TiVo wins, Dish will have no DVRs, SD or HD.

You can check this out on today's Swanni newsletter. Or it might have been yesterday's newsletter, one of the two.

Rich


----------



## Rich

HarleyD said:


> And thank God that you did because most of us were really confused as to where you stand.
> 
> This 3,459,827th iteration clears it all up.


Every time I see one of your posts, I can't help but admire your picture of Zappa. That's one of the scariest pictures of someone I have ever seen. That photographer hit a lick when he caught him at that particular moment.

Rich


----------



## ATARI

HarleyD said:


> but more likely I suspect it will come in a newer unit that you'll have to fork over at least another $199 for the privilege of leasing (could that be the "why"??? To double-dip into the cash pool of the early adopters?)


This is the conclusion (right or wrong) that I have come to myself.

Hello HR30??

On a side note -- whatever happened to the vaporwa...I mean 'better than DLB' thread?


----------



## Rich

Hemi said:


> HarleyD,
> 
> I couldn't agree more, well said. I thought that I had read somewhere that the reason D* wouldn't allow (notice I said wouldn't and not couldn't) DLB is that they wanted to be sure of what you were watching all of the time and that with DLB they might not know which shows you were really watching and what just happened to be on the other tuner. That said, I'm sure that there is a way either by using other remote key presses like FF and RR or a statistically relevant methodology to determine what tuner you were truly interested in if not both.
> 
> Dan


Dan, feeling a tad paranoid? Why would they care what you're watching? And if they had the capability to do that, don't you think they would have while the HU stream was still up?

Rich


----------



## Rich

ATARI said:


> This is the conclusion (right or wrong) that I have come to myself.
> 
> Hello HR30??
> 
> On a side note -- whatever happened to the vaporwa...I mean 'better than DLB' thread?


I haven't seen the banner guides recently. Have they stopped them?

By the way, if people keep wishing for that mythical HR30 we're liable to get blessed with them and go thru all the crap we did with the 20s and still with the 21s. I am really tired of DVRs that don't function correctly. I've got one 21 that's driving me, the Case Management Group and the technicians that they keep sending out, crazy.

Rich


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> You probably ought to check out the lawsuit that TiVo just hit Dish with. If TiVo wins, Dish will have no DVRs, SD or HD.
> 
> You can check this out on today's Swanni newsletter. Or it might have been yesterday's newsletter, one of the two.
> 
> Rich


You've got that backward. TIVO didn't hit DISH with any lawsuit; rather *DISH* filed the lawsuit against TIVO.


----------



## Hemi

rich584 said:


> Dan, feeling a tad paranoid? Why would they care what you're watching? And if they had the capability to do that, don't you think they would have while the HU stream was still up?
> 
> Rich


Paranoid? No. Just trying to guess as to why on earth D* would not even say why they will not allow DLB. They apparently have a reason for not allowing it, only we're not worthy of knowing it. And this only leaves us to speculate as to the reason itself and to the reasons why D* thinks that we should not know.

Dan


----------



## Jeremy W

HarleyD said:


> And thank God that you did because most of us were really confused as to where you stand.
> 
> This 3,459,827th iteration clears it all up.


I can say the exact same thing about the DLB fanboys. So who cares?


----------



## luckydob

Jeremy W said:


> I disagree. Even if you explained it to the general public, most of them still won't care. It's a niche feature.


Niche features like...I dunno...VOD, remote scheduling, game channels, etc...


----------



## Jimmmmbo!

I'm a conspiracy theorist on this one. I remember when Earl said he "agreed" with DirecTV's reasons, and recall thinking to myself that this sounded fishier than anchovies. I think they told him that it was possible but not economically feasible. Economical meaning something like either the hardware implementation creates too many complications for it or the software architecture would have to be completely redone.

If it were as "simple"  as writing a daily fortune cookie program it would have already been done by now, right?


----------



## Jimmmmbo!

"Niche" features are in the eye of the beholder.

Anyone who gets an HD DVR expects it to, at a minimum (beyond a standard tuner):
- Record HD material
- FF/REW/Pause recordings
- View/manage recordings "relatively" quickly (compared to a VCR)

Anything else (mostly) is just gravy. It simply depends on how much you like any given feature. I'd say it is pretty obvious that there is a significantly large contingent that believes that DLB is valuable (already demonstrated by statistics here). At least as much as say dual tuners, 30-sec skip/slip, jump-to-tick, search guide by category/title/actor/etc, native passthrough, season passes and automatic software updates.


----------



## Jeremy W

luckydob said:


> Niche features like...I dunno...VOD, remote scheduling, game channels, etc...


-VOD is heavily advertised by the competition.
-Remote Scheduling is on the verge of being a major feature that people will be looking for, DirecTV wanted to get in early.
-Game channels generate revenue.

Got any more?


----------



## btmoore

Jeremy W said:


> -VOD is heavily advertised by the competition.
> -Remote Scheduling is on the verge of being a major feature that people will be looking for, DirecTV wanted to get in early.
> -Game channels generate revenue.
> 
> Got any more?


Where can I get game lamer than an old Atari 2600 and pay for them, The D* Games Lounge. I just can't find a deck of cards and my PC broke and I am just jonesing to play a game of solitaire on my $4000 HDTV, where can I do that? The D* games lounge. Hum, I cant figure out Yahoo games, it is too complex for me, and I want to play Bejeweled 2 because it is da bomb, using an IR remote in a painfully inappropriate way and waste money my life while doing it, the D* games lounge is for you.

Hey maybe you can start your own D* Game Lounge clan. Take on your rival clans in the Game Lounge number 1 game "Barbie Luv Me 3: Puppy Tricks". I kid you not:
Description:
Barbie has a new puppy and she needs to train him tricks to impress her friends. She needs your help to make this cute pup into an all star performer.

http://www.gamelounge.com/glapp/gam...09F52793616E42807A64364B45F4.node2?gameId=242


----------



## kokishin

"Barbie Luv Me 3: Puppy Tricks". Jeremey, what do you think? Better than DLB? 

Jeremy: don't go thermo - just teasing.



btmoore said:


> Where can I get game lamer than an old Atari 2600 and pay for them, The D* Games Lounge. I just can't find a deck of cards and my PC broke and I am just jonesing to play a game of solitaire on my $4000 HDTV, where can I do that? The D* games lounge. Hum, I cant figure out Yahoo games, it is too complex for me, and I want to play Bejeweled 2 because it is da bomb, using an IR remote in a painfully inappropriate way and waste money my life while doing it, the D* games lounge is for you.
> 
> Hey maybe you can start your own D* Game Lounge clan. Take on your rival clans in the Game Lounge number 1 game "Barbie Luv Me 3: Puppy Tricks". I kid you not:
> Description:
> Barbie has a new puppy and she needs to train him tricks to impress her friends. She needs your help to make this cute pup into an all star performer.
> 
> http://www.gamelounge.com/glapp/gam...09F52793616E42807A64364B45F4.node2?gameId=242


----------



## HarleyD

Jeremy W said:


> I can say the exact same thing about the DLB fanboys. So who cares?


And you will.

At length.

Every chance you get.


----------



## Jeremy W

btmoore said:


> Where can I get game lamer than an old Atari 2600 and pay for them, The D* Games Lounge.


I never said they were good games. Personally, I find Game Lounge to be totally worthless. I was just explaining why it exists.


----------



## Flyrx7

Hemi said:


> HarleyD,
> 
> I thought that I had read somewhere that the reason D* wouldn't allow (notice I said wouldn't and not couldn't) DLB is that they wanted to be sure of what you were watching all of the time and that with DLB they might not know which shows you were really watching and what just happened to be on the other tuner.
> 
> Dan


You make a very valid point with that. In todays capitalistic, electronic market place, it's always about money. What better way to make money than advertising?
We already know that Tivo, for example, track our viewing habits and probably sell that info to advertisers so they know where to show their best commercials. Google, Yahoo, and the many spyware programs track your moves on the net with the sole purpose of gathering info to be sold to direct marketing companys just so they can advertise to you in a more direct, efficient manner. Why would D* be any different?

The whole problem with DVR's is that they are basically meant to eliminate commercials, or at least that is a result. You know that has to irritate the people paying for the advertising. As a result we are now getting banner ads. Pretty soon we'll be forced to watch commercials, having the ability to FF or Skip being overidden temporarily, much like the start of some DVD's and they're studio advertising/teaser trailers. Don't think that will happen? Just look at the fact that they delete PPV movies from your harddrive after a certain amount of time. That was from the pressure they were getting from the studios. Once they get more pressure from the advertisers you'll likely see similar actions.

Personally, I hate having to pay for TV and having to watch the commercials too. I thought the whole reason when pay cable came out way back when was so you didn't have to watch commercials. Now the industry double-dips; getting money from subscribers as well as advertisers.

So, if DLB encroaches on the ability of D* to monitor and sell our viewing habits, I can see why they are stonewalling us. Personally, if that is the case, I'm sure a very simple software switch could tell them what we're actually watching.

Regards,
Frank

PS, maybe we should start a new thread: "Speculate why D* chose to ignore DLB". It would be more entertaining than the speculation of What's better than DLB!


----------



## Flyrx7

HarleyD said:


> I imagine not until the competitors start pointing out that DirecTV *doesn't *have dual buffers and leverage that fact as a disadvantage and shortcoming in the DirecTV brand.....
> Then DirecTV will finally play catch up and offer DLB either as a software upgrade to existing equipment......
> *<<sigh>>*


A very good point. I think we should start a grass roots movement and write letters/emails to Comcast, Dish and every other competitor out there pointing this out. It would be very simple for them to do and I would bet they would increase their market share. Maybe not by alot, but I'm sure they would see a positive result. At the very least, I bet D* would step up!

Regards,
Frank


----------



## mikewolf13

Jeremy W said:


> -VOD is heavily advertised by the competition.
> -Remote Scheduling is on the verge of being a major feature that people will be looking for, DirecTV wanted to get in early.
> -Game channels generate revenue.
> 
> Got any more?


Your answer does not address whether they are niche features.

Or support your assertion DLB is.


----------



## jimb726

Flyrx7 said:


> A very good point. I think we should start a grass roots movement and write letters/emails to Comcast, Dish and every other competitor out there pointing this out. It would be very simple for them to do and I would bet they would increase their market share. Maybe not by alot, but I'm sure they would see a positive result. At the very least, I bet D* would step up!
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


And unfortunately the fact that they are not doing it also leads to more questions. Comcast advertises they have more HD "content" not channels, Dish advertises that they have a DVR that is better than TiVo. Kind of makes you wonder why no one is touting that they have DVR's with this ability.


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> You make a very valid point with that. In todays capitalistic, electronic market place, it's always about money. What better way to make money than advertising?
> We already know that Tivo, for example, track our viewing habits and probably sell that info to advertisers so they know where to show their best commercials. Google, Yahoo, and the many spyware programs track your moves on the net with the sole purpose of gathering info to be sold to direct marketing companys just so they can advertise to you in a more direct, efficient manner. Why would D* be any different?
> 
> The whole problem with DVR's is that they are basically meant to eliminate commercials, or at least that is a result. You know that has to irritate the people paying for the advertising. As a result we are now getting banner ads. Pretty soon we'll be forced to watch commercials, having the ability to FF or Skip being overidden temporarily, much like the start of some DVD's and they're studio advertising/teaser trailers. Don't think that will happen? Just look at the fact that they delete PPV movies from your harddrive after a certain amount of time. That was from the pressure they were getting from the studios. Once they get more pressure from the advertisers you'll likely see similar actions.
> 
> Personally, I hate having to pay for TV and having to watch the commercials too. I thought the whole reason when pay cable came out way back when was so you didn't have to watch commercials. Now the industry double-dips; getting money from subscribers as well as advertisers.
> 
> So, if DLB encroaches on the ability of D* to monitor and sell our viewing habits, I can see why they are stonewalling us. Personally, if that is the case, I'm sure a very simple software switch could tell them what we're actually watching.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank
> 
> PS, maybe we should start a new thread: "Speculate why D* chose to ignore DLB". It would be more entertaining than the speculation of What's better than DLB!


Please read the thread before making more crazy speculations , Earl has said before that it was not because of advertisers , not because of a Tivo patent , not because of hardware , software and not because they need the tuner to push VOD .


----------



## mikewolf13

Flyrx7 said:


> So, if DLB encroaches on the ability of D* to monitor and sell our viewing habits, I can see why they are stonewalling us. Personally, if that is the case, I'm sure a very simple software switch could tell them what we're actually watching.


I disagree with this theory

IF anything DLB by definition promotes LIVE (or very close to live) viewing. I would guess you are more likely to watch commercials while watching LIVE tv than recorded tv...even when using the buffer.

If DTV is collecting data on what you watch/record...clearly DLB would give them the ability to increase their stats on what is being viewed. Because the DLB is viewable, you'd have to account for some fraction of it being seen...so more data...more views...more to sell.

I believe it was short-sightedness at first..combined with the need to distribute VOD via a push utilizing a tuner.

As broadband VOD has now become the vehicle for distribution they can consider implementing it in some form, or implementing "somehting better"...what feature and the timeframes for that implementation are questions whcih I doubt hard answers yet exist.

To be fair..i believe DTV has a plan for "something better"..but it may go the way of Direct2Go...but they will not implement DLB while they have a plan.


----------



## Dr. Booda

Jeremy W said:


> -VOD is heavily advertised by the competition.
> -Remote Scheduling is on the verge of being a major feature that people will be looking for, DirecTV wanted to get in early.
> -Game channels generate revenue.
> 
> Got any more?


One man's niche is another man's necessity.

- The competitors also all have DLB along with VOD.
- When I'm out of the house I'm really not keeping track of what I need to record. I'm living life at that moment. I'll never need access to my DVR remotely.
- Sports Subscriptions generate more revenue than Game channels, and DLB is essential to fully enjoy said content.


----------



## puffnstuff

mikewolf13 said:


> I disagree with this theory
> 
> IF anything DLB by definition promotes LIVE (or very close to live) viewing. I would guess you are more likely to watch commercials while watching LIVE tv than recorded tv...even when using the buffer.
> 
> If DTV is collecting data on what you watch/record...clearly DLB would give them the ability to increase their stats on what is being viewed. Because the DLB is viewable, you'd have to account for some fraction of it being seen...so more data...more views...more to sell.
> 
> I believe it was short-sightedness at first..combined with the need to distribute VOD via a push utilizing a tuner.
> 
> As broadband VOD has now become the vehicle for distribution they can consider implementing it in some form, or implementing "somehting better"...what feature and the timeframes for that implementation are questions whcih I doubt hard answers yet exist.
> 
> To be fair..i believe DTV has a plan for "something better"..but it may go the way of Direct2Go...but they will not implement DLB while they have a plan.


They never needed the tuner to push VOD .


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> Please read the thread before making more crazy speculations , Earl has said before that it was not because of advertisers , not because of a Tivo patent , not because of hardware , software and not because they need the tuner to push VOD .


I guess all that leaves is incompetence or stubbornness.


----------



## Que

btmoore said:


> Where can I get game lamer than an old Atari 2600 and pay for them, The D* Games Lounge. I just can't find a deck of cards and my PC broke and I am just jonesing to play a game of solitaire on my $4000 HDTV, where can I do that? The D* games lounge. Hum, I cant figure out Yahoo games, it is too complex for me, and I want to play Bejeweled 2 because it is da bomb, using an IR remote in a painfully inappropriate way and waste money my life while doing it, the D* games lounge is for you.
> 
> Hey maybe you can start your own D* Game Lounge clan. Take on your rival clans in the Game Lounge number 1 game "Barbie Luv Me 3: Puppy Tricks". I kid you not:
> Description:
> Barbie has a new puppy and she needs to train him tricks to impress her friends. She needs your help to make this cute pup into an all star performer.
> 
> http://www.gamelounge.com/glapp/gam...09F52793616E42807A64364B45F4.node2?gameId=242


.....but...but you can also check your horoscope too! :hurah:


----------



## Lord Vader

Here's one big reason why I really love DLB: last night due to the NHL Stanley Cup game, the _Tonight Show_ started waaayyyyy late. I record it on Mondays because of Jay's "Headlines" segment. I also record Letterman's show. That means I've got both of my HR20-700's tuners recording at the same time.

I turned on the TV to watch Leno when I noticed the hockey game was recorded, but Letterman recorded fine. Moreover, my CBS channel was on the foreground tuner. That to me was irrelevant, for I had recorded it. What I REALLY would have preferred is to have my NBC channel on the foreground tuner, or at least on a second live tuner, because I could have just rewound it a bit to watch Leno when he came on much later due to the NHL game. Sure, I could turn the channel to my local NBC channel, but there was no live buffer and consequently, no ability to rewind to watch a late-starting Tonight Show.


----------



## puffnstuff

ATARI said:


> I guess all that leaves is incompetence or stubbornness.


I guess , because for 18 months now every idea as to why has been shot down and also I agree with above about this " new feature " , we will never see it because I believe ( just my thought ) When asked in the chat about About DLB the something better comment was made , did he even know what DLB is ? I have never talked to anybody else at Directv that did , so why would he . I know his position but when dealing with case management last week ( took 3 techs to fix ) it took 10 minutes for them to get it


----------



## Flyrx7

puffnstuff said:


> Please read the thread before making more crazy speculations , Earl has said before that it was not because of advertisers ......


I guess that argument works if you believe everything you read on an internet forum. Now, I'm not accusing Earl of lying or anything, I'm just considering the source of his information. Directv. I'm still skeptic of them for their stance and position in this whole DLB thing.

I'm sure we could guess and guess until someone got it right (and probably have), but do you think that they would all of a sudden say "Hey, you got the right answer! Here's a prize!" I think at this point they would deny, deny, deny any right answer anyhow. If someone was getting close they might have to lie or offer subterfuge (somthing better than DLB......). I mean afterall, it's got to be a huge secret why we don't have DLB. 

Just a theory (as with every other reason why/why not). As far as "crazy speculations", as you say; without them then why are we here? Directv isn't offering any reasons or even contributing to this thread directly, so it's all speculation (albeit some maybe more crazy than others  ).

I think we need a fact sheet on this whole DLB speculation. Do we even have facts other than heresay and "Something better than DLB is coming"?

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Nicholsen

Hey, one of the purposes of boards like this is to permit free thinking and speculation about issuesthat remain "shrouded in mystery."

I personally welcome speculation, as long as somebody doesn't try to pass it off as the verifiable truth.


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> I guess that argument works if you believe everything you read on an internet forum. Now, I'm not accusing Earl of lying or anything, I'm just considering the source of his information. Directv. I'm still skeptic of them for their stance and position in this whole DLB thing.
> 
> I'm sure we could guess and guess until someone got it right (and probably have), but do you think that they would all of a sudden say "Hey, you got the right answer! Here's a prize!" I think at this point they would deny, deny, deny any right answer anyhow. If someone was getting close they might have to lie or offer subterfuge (somthing better than DLB......). I mean afterall, it's got to be a huge secret why we don't have DLB.
> 
> Just a theory (as with every other reason why/why not). As far as "crazy speculations", as you say; without them then why are we here? Directv isn't offering any reasons or even contributing to this thread directly, so it's all speculation (albeit some maybe more crazy than others  ).
> 
> I think we need a fact sheet on this whole DLB speculation. Do we even have facts other than heresay and "Something better than DLB is coming"?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I agree I have asked and asked to get a fact sheet going but no go . Now the other part . I don't believe everything I read on here but this subject is one that I check 5-6 times a day . That being said all of the things besides the advertisers part can be found out on your own therefore I don't have to believe Earl .


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> You've got that backward. TIVO didn't hit DISH with any lawsuit; rather *DISH* filed the lawsuit against TIVO.


You're right. I misread Swanni's newsletter. Still, the newsletter said that if TiVo's previous suit is upheld, it could mean that Dish would be without DVRs.

Here is the link: http://www.tvpredictions.com/dishtivo053008.htm

These two paragraphs found on that link are what I was referring to:

_The filing is the latest salvo in the legal war between the two companies. TiVo sued Dish Network in 2004 for DVR patent infringement and a Texas jury in April 2006 found in TiVo's favor.

The verdict has since been tied up in appeals court, but TiVo said this week that a resolution is expected shortly. The company claims that Dish Network now owes it approximately $100 million in damages. *Additionally, TiVo says Dish must disable all current HD and SD DVRs because of the patent infringement.*_

The last sentence was what I was referring to when I cautioned the poster who was going to switch to Dish.

I just got a new computer and am transferring files from my old one or I would have explained earlier.

Can you even begin to imagine the chaos that would result if TiVo's verdict was upheld? The effect on all the stocks of every other provider with DVRs would go up and D*'s would skyrocket.

Rich


----------



## Flyrx7

ATARI said:


> I guess all that leaves is incompetence or stubbornness.


Actually seems like quite reasonable speculations.

- Incompetence: The machines have been out for, what, over 2 years now, and they're still having issues. How many software updates for "stability" have we gone through up to this point? Pretty sure my Tivo only had a couple.

- Stubborness: Seems likely as well. I mean afterall, this has been a very boisterous bunch of people on these DLB threads and Directv's done nothing to quell the noise, (except for subterfuge and heresay). All of this attention can't be all that good for their image. Their stubborn refusal to acknowledge any real portion of this debate pretty much signals the depth of their stubborness.

I mean, really, how difficult could it be for D* to throw us a bone here? And I'm not talking about subterfuge vaporware or heresay. It get's pretty tiring when someone says that their source inside told them "this" or "that". It's too much cat and mouse, and I'm pretty sure we're the mice.

Frank


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually seems like quite reasonable speculations.
> 
> - Incompetence: The machines have been out for, what, over 2 years now, and they're still having issues. How many software updates for "stability" have we gone through up to this point? Pretty sure my Tivo only had a couple.
> 
> - Stubborness: Seems likely as well. I mean afterall, this has been a very boisterous bunch of people on these DLB threads and Directv's done nothing to quell the noise, (except for subterfuge and heresay). All of this attention can't be all that good for their image. Their stubborn refusal to acknowledge any real portion of this debate pretty much signals the depth of their stubborness.
> 
> I mean, really, how difficult could it be for D* to throw us a bone here? And I'm not talking about subterfuge vaporware or heresay. It get's pretty tiring when someone says that their source inside told them "this" or "that". It's too much cat and mouse, and I'm pretty sure we're the mice.
> 
> Frank


 What I want is why ? No bones about it , but the only problem is , they will never tell us because I belive just like you and Atari . They simply overlooked it rushing this box out , and refuse to admit it . Especially since Earl said in post 206 on the old thread that they were working on it , then they found out it would be to hard and said screw it , we will just develop alot of fluff features to gloss over the fact that we are stupid .


----------



## Flyrx7

puffnstuff said:


> That being said all of the things besides the advertisers part can be found out on your own therefore I don't have to believe Earl .


I too agree about the hardware,software, patents and all the other reasons as to why those are not arguments for not having DLB, that is why I originally responded to Hemi's response about advertising being a possibility in the first place.
If it's not due to limitations of the machine, or the machine itself, then it's got to be an outside influence, seperate from the machine. 
So, that leaves us:

- Directv mandate?
- Advertisers?
- Lack of priority? (hopefully, as long as it's on the list)
- Lack of stability, too busy making the machine work in the first place?
- Marketing for the next gen box?
- Stubborness?
- Ineptitude?
- Trade secrets?
- Earth shattering debut of something better?
- Too much fun stringing us along?

Now, I would agree that some of those reasons don't really make sense on the corporate level that I would assume Directv operates at, but what else is there? Idle minds left to their own devices will surely cause a stir. That should be a quote somewhere.

Isn't speculating fun? Let's start a list.

Frank


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> I too agree about the hardware,software, patents and all the other reasons as to why those are not arguments for not having DLB, that is why I originally responded to Hemi's response about advertising being a possibility in the first place.
> If it's not due to limitations of the machine, or the machine itself, then it's got to be an outside influence, seperate from the machine.
> So, that leaves us:
> 
> - Directv mandate?
> - Advertisers?
> - Lack of priority? (hopefully, as long as it's on the list)
> - Lack of stability, too busy making the machine work in the first place?
> - Marketing for the next gen box?
> - Stubborness?
> - Ineptitude?
> - Trade secrets?
> - Earth shattering debut of something better?
> - Too much fun stringing us along?
> 
> Now, I would agree that some of those reasons don't really make sense on the corporate level that I would assume Directv operates at, but what else is there? Idle minds left to their own devices will surely cause a stir. That should be a quote somewhere.
> 
> Isn't speculating fun? Let's start a list.
> 
> Frank


Man your list seems to cover it without getting to crazy  Anybody else ?


----------



## Flyrx7

puffnstuff said:


> What I want is why ? No bones about it , but the only problem is , they will never tell us because I belive just like you and Atari . They simply overlooked it rushing this box out , and refuse to admit it . Especially since Earl said in post 206 on the old thread that they were working on it , then they found out it would be to hard and said screw it , we will just develop alot of fluff features to gloss over the fact that we are stupid .


Link to post #206 referenced above
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206

I may just have to go back and re-read that thread if I get bored.


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> Link to post #206 referenced above
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206
> 
> I may just have to go back and re-read that thread if I get bored.


You don't want to trust me  But if you do I would start by ignoring 1 persons post's it will cut down on reading and your blood pressure  Where we are now though is the same place we started and I thought I hated merry go rounds .  Also that post is the reason I stayed with Directv as my main provider . Here's the kicker though I found out yesterday I haven't been under contract for 2 years and I still am here I must love punishment . Hey it did save me from getting Sunday ticket and Superfan this year .


----------



## Flyrx7

Ok, just for _fun_ :icon_dumm, I went back and did a search in the "Dual Buffers" thread. Specifically for posts by Earl Bonovich, since he is about as close as were likely to get to Directv on this issue.

After doing so, I'm a little unerved that he now works for Directv, as he seems pretty adamant about DLB not being a core function of a DVR and that he himself doesn't find a use for it. So, so much for "one of us" getting on the inside to effect change. I hope I'm wrong, however, but every single one of his posts regarding DLB have very negative connotations, at least to the extent of D* ever wanting DLB. 
Please, no flames. I know everyone here loves Earl and all, and I'm not attacking his character, just posing my observances. I wish him the best of luck at Directv, should be a good gig.

To re-iterate what I found though, and many of you surely remember, is that Earl's reply as to Directv's decision to not have DLB is simply "That they didn't feel the need to include it in their line of DVR's" (in so many words). :scratch:

According to him, the lack of DLB has nothing to do with:

- Marketing
- Commercials
- Tivo patents, patents in general
- Legalities
- Hardware limitations
- Software (only inasmuch they haven't programmed it yet)
- Forum members complaining
There may be others I missed, but those are the bigger ones. I would have quoted them verbatim here, but not sure if that's acceptable, seeing as it's a closed thread. :whatdidid

After that research, I'm left to assume a few things, based on some of Earls posts:

- That Directv really doesn't care about DLB, as it is not a core DVR function, according to them.
- That Directv thinks the forum users posting about the lack of DLB are an insignificant number to effect any true impact on their bottom line.
- That Directv thinks the forum users do not reflect the general public opinion. We are apparently too hard-core, too high-tech to be "everyday Joe Public"

To not include DLB in the DVR+ line just because "they don't want to", in my mind, is pure narrow-mindedness. But since I'm posting on an internet forum, I'm too high tech to matter. Nevermind that the only reason I even found DBSTalk was due to the DLB issue. Since I know how to use the internet and Google I must be a member of Mensa, a rather insignificant number of people that surely can't vote with their money enough to impact D*.

Ok, sorry for the rant there towards the end. Getting worked up over a non-core function, such a miniscule feature. :ramblinon :soapbox:

Regards,
Frank


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> Ok, just for _fun_ :icon_dumm, I went back and did a search in the "Dual Buffers" thread. Specifically for posts by Earl Bonovich, since he is about as close as were likely to get to Directv on this issue.
> 
> After doing so, I'm a little unerved that he now works for Directv, as he seems pretty adamant about DLB not being a core function of a DVR and that he himself doesn't find a use for it. So, so much for "one of us" getting on the inside to effect change. I hope I'm wrong, however, but every single one of his posts regarding DLB have very negative connotations, at least to the extent of D* ever wanting DLB.
> Please, no flames. I know everyone here loves Earl and all, and I'm not attacking his character, just posing my observances. I wish him the best of luck at Directv, should be a good gig.
> 
> To re-iterate what I found though, and many of you surely remember, is that Earl's reply as to Directv's decision to not have DLB is simply "That they didn't feel the need to include it in their line of DVR's" (in so many words). :scratch:
> 
> According to him, the lack of DLB has nothing to do with:
> 
> - Marketing
> - Commercials
> - Tivo patents, patents in general
> - Legalities
> - Hardware limitations
> - Software (only inasmuch they haven't programmed it yet)
> - Forum members complaining
> There may be others I missed, but those are the bigger ones. I would have quoted them verbatim here, but not sure if that's acceptable, seeing as it's a closed thread. :whatdidid
> 
> After that research, I'm left to assume a few things, based on some of Earls posts:
> 
> - That Directv really doesn't care about DLB, as it is not a core DVR function, according to them.
> - That Directv thinks the forum users posting about the lack of DLB are an insignificant number to effect any true impact on their bottom line.
> - That Directv thinks the forum users do not reflect the general public opinion. We are apparently too hard-core, too high-tech to be "everyday Joe Public"
> 
> To not include DLB in the DVR+ line just because "they don't want to", in my mind, is pure narrow-mindedness. But since I'm posting on an internet forum, I'm too high tech to matter. Nevermind that the only reason I even found DBSTalk was due to the DLB issue. Since I know how to use the internet and Google I must be a member of Mensa, a rather insignificant number of people that surely can't vote with their money enough to impact D*.
> 
> Ok, sorry for the rant there towards the end. Getting worked up over a non-core function, such a miniscule feature. :ramblinon :soapbox:
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


No flames ( I wish I could have been eloquent enough to did it myself ) , but I believe that Earl was just telling us all he could and after so long probably got a little tired of the questions ( either because the reason was retarded or better than sliced bread ). I know I would . Besides that the rest should be a sticky because I don't believe I see a false staement in there !


----------



## Drew2k

ATARI said:


> I guess all that leaves is incompetence or stubbornness.


I think it's neither. It was a business decision DIRECTV made to not include DLB in the DVR+ receivers because they have other plans that we are not privy to.


----------



## puffnstuff

Drew2k said:


> I think it's neither. It was a business decision DIRECTV made to not include DLB in the DVR+ receivers because they have other plans that we are not privy to.


But what though ? I have been waitng and waitng and waiting for this feature or plan or whatever for 20 months now and still with every new feature they introduce I don't see anything that makes DLB impossible .


----------



## ATARI

Drew2k said:


> I think it's neither. It was a business decision DIRECTV made to not include DLB in the DVR+ receivers because they have other plans that we are not privy to.


It was a conscious decision to not include DLB in this line of DVRs, and D* is a business. So, yes, it was a business decision. But that doesn't get to the root of what went into making that decision. It could very well be ineptitude or stubbornness.


----------



## Drew2k

ATARI said:


> It was a conscious decision to not include DLB in this line of DVRs, and D* is a business. So, yes, it was a business decision. But that doesn't get to the root of what went into making that decision. It could very well be ineptitude or stubbornness.


What's your basis for claiming ineptitude is behind the decision? Is Honda inept for not allowing customers to have both the DVD entertainment system and the navigation system? You can't have both based on the way the car was designed. Was it an economic decision not to allow both? An engineering issue? Power?

And stubbornness? You think DIRECTV for the fun of it is just thumbing its nose saying, "Nyah nyah! We're not giving t to you!"? That's an absurd thought, but it's basically what you're claiming they're doing.

We don't have DLB because it doesn't fit into their plans - pure and simple.


----------



## Drew2k

puffnstuff said:


> But what though ? I have been waitng and waitng and waiting for this feature or plan or whatever for 20 months now and still with every new feature they introduce I don't see anything that makes DLB impossible .


No idea. That's what the speculation thread was about, and that ran out of steam when we ran out of ideas.


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> No idea. That's what the speculation thread was about, and that ran out of steam when we ran out of ideas.


I have some new ideas that I am ready to share.

BJ


----------



## puffnstuff

boltjames said:


> I have some new ideas that I am ready to share.
> 
> BJ


Please do .


----------



## Drew2k

puffnstuff said:


> Please do .


Oy. You just took the bait.

If there was really news, why wasn't the news posted instead of a teaser? Oh, that's right, because this is a game to some people.


----------



## puffnstuff

Drew2k said:


> Oy. You just took the bait.
> 
> If there was really news, why wasn't the news posted instead of a teaser? Oh, that's right, because this is a game to some people.


I know . But I really want to hear . So what are they ? I miss him anyways


----------



## AZ_Engineer

Just came back to this thread after a couple of months. It's really funny how the speculation seems to assume that DTV very conciously left DLB out. My guess, if it's not a legal issue as Earl claims, they simply forgot to spec it in, and now the system arch they built makes it really hard to add. Having said that, I still think there is a licensing issue around this that would require them to extend their license with Tivo beyond the current agreement if they implemented DLB.

Mark me as one who is staying with the HR10 until I get either FIOS with Tivo, or a better HR2X from DTV


----------



## raott

Drew2k said:


> What's your basis for claiming ineptitude is behind the decision? ......


D*'s track record supports a basis for ineptitude. Anyone remember the two-push guide and tick marks you couldn't skip to? It's pretty clear there was little to no design for the customer analysis done.



Drew2k said:


> We don't have DLB because it doesn't fit into their plans - pure and simple.


That is simply the line you've been fed here through the back channels. I don't buy it for a second. The R15 didn't have DLB and has been out for almost 3 years. The interface is very similar to the HR20. I believe they were desperate because of the tivo situation, took the basic design of the R15 (with no DLBs) and ported it over.


----------



## NickD

AZ_Engineer said:


> My guess, if it's not a legal issue as Earl claims, they simply forgot to spec it in, and now the system arch they built makes it really hard to add.


I can buy this as a reason, they screwed up and forgot to add a feature that they intended on having and now they can't. I know they do not have to but then it would be nice if they came and said hey we F'd up, forgot this feature that was a staple on the old box, but because of certain reasons with the new box we can't add it on like we would like to, however we are working on some new features that may include, yadda yadda, yadda in the hopefully third quarter 08.

I think what most people really want is , besides DLB, is an answer to WHY no DLB? Even if it pissed off most people, at least there would be closure.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

AZ_Engineer said:


> Just came back to this thread after a couple of months. It's really funny how the speculation seems to assume that DTV very conciously left DLB out. My guess, if it's not a legal issue as Earl claims, they simply forgot to spec it in, and now the system arch they built makes it really hard to add. Having said that, I still think there is a licensing issue around this that would require them to extend their license with Tivo beyond the current agreement if they implemented DLB.
> 
> Mark me as one who is staying with the HR10 until I get either FIOS with Tivo, or a better HR2X from DTV





NickD said:


> I can buy this as a reason, they screwed up and forgot to add a feature that they intended on having and now they can't. I know they do not have to but then it would be nice if they came and said hey we F'd up, forgot this feature that was a staple on the old box, but because of certain reasons with the new box we can't add it on like we would like to, however we are working on some new features that may include, yadda yadda, yadda in the hopefully third quarter 08.
> 
> I think what most people really want is , besides DLB, is an answer to WHY no DLB? Even if it pissed off most people, at least there would be closure.


The First DLB Thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

If you go back and read the first thread you'll find that in the begining(late '06 early '07) DirecTV was telling Earl that they were looking into how they want to implement DLB. Implicite in this is they intended to put it in so I don't think they forgot. (this is why I upgraded to the HR20 in Jan '07...I thought it was comming )

IMHO, I agree that it has gotten too far into fixing bugs and implementing features to code DLB into the system.

At this point the amount of work necessary and the potential impact on current features will prevent ever putting DLB in the HR20/HR21.

In the original thread you will find lengthy discussions about the legal aspects complete with links and the issue has been put to rest.

*The lack of DLB is not and never has been a patent/legal issue.*

As far as going beyond the current TiVo agreement, the HR2x has a form of auto correction when using FW. That is a TiVo patent. However, what's patented is the method to accomplish the task...not the task itself.

DLB can be done and in certain unintended ways it actually does it now. I just don't think it's possible to implement as a feature any more.

Mike


----------



## ATARI

AZ_Engineer said:


> Just came back to this thread after a couple of months. It's really funny how the speculation seems to assume that DTV very conciously left DLB out. My guess, if it's not a legal issue as Earl claims, *they simply forgot to spec it in*, and now the system arch they built makes it really hard to add. Having said that, I still think there is a licensing issue around this that would require them to extend their license with Tivo beyond the current agreement if they implemented DLB.


And that, to me, equals incompetence.


----------



## ljsss

I have always thought that DLBs are something that I can't live without (and I still think that). That being the case, I am still using my old DirecTivo HD unit (with it's 6 or 7 HD channels  ).

I am going to be moving to a new house in a couple of months so I am re-evaluating my TV options. Reading this thread has brought me up to speed that DirecTV still does not offer DLBs on their new machines.

This may not be the right place for this question, but I knew you guys would know; Does Dish offer the DLB equivalent on their machines? 
Please no flames for asking, it's just that DLBs are probably my #1 priority. Thanks for any help!


----------



## puffnstuff

ljsss said:


> I have always thought that DLBs are something that I can't live without (and I still think that). That being the case, I am still using my old DirecTivo HD unit (with it's 6 or 7 HD channels  ).
> 
> I am going to be moving to a new house in a couple of months so I am re-evaluating my TV options. Reading this thread has brought me up to speed that DirecTV still does offer DLBs on their new machines.
> 
> This may not be the right place for this question, but I knew you guys would know; Does Dish offer the DLB equivalent on their machines?
> Please no flames for asking, it's just that DLBs are probably my #1 priority. Thanks for any help!


 Yes , they do . Almost every other dual tuner DVR on the market does .


----------



## ljsss

puffnstuff said:


> Yes , they do . Almost every other dual tuner DVR on the market does .


Thanks for the reply!


----------



## David MacLeod

lot of people say dlb is useful for sports, but I don't watch sports and miss it a LOT.
there, now we're 1827 posts of opinions and arguments.


----------



## Flyrx7

ATARI said:


> It was a conscious decision to not include DLB in this line of DVRs, and D* is a business. So, yes, it was a business decision. But that doesn't get to the root of what went into making that decision. It could very well be ineptitude or stubbornness.


Conscious decision or not, I too feel that it boils down to ineptitude and stubborness.

Ineptitude or narrow mindedness kept them from specifying the feature in the first place and stubborness to not admit they made a mistake. They've drawn a line in the sand it seems, and are too stubborn and pridefull to admit a mistake.

If people can't believe the ineptitude statement, then why didn't they release a piece of equipment that works, has all the functions of what we currently have now and doesn't need stability updates every other week? Or was that part of their marketing/rollout plan?

I do however understand and like the idea of the open architecture of the unit, allowing for future upgrades, but to release it when they did with the amount of work that had/has to be done to make it work reliably seems to lack forsight, or at the least proper beta testing.

One true fact remains; Directv has release the DVR+ unit without DLB and many people are very unhappy about that. How many? We may never know, but if 1000 "quirky net nerds" voice their opinion here, what segment or percentage does that equate too in the "real world". Whatever that number, Earl has said that Directv feels it's too insignificant. That's what makes me sad. Methinks D* needs a better polling device then if this segment at DBSTalk is insignificant.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Conscious decision or not, I too feel that it boils down to ineptitude and stubborness.
> 
> Ineptitude or narrow mindedness kept them from specifying the feature in the first place and stubborness to not admit they made a mistake. They've drawn a line in the sand it seems, and are too stubborn and pridefull to admit a mistake.
> 
> If people can't believe the ineptitude statement, then why didn't they release a piece of equipment that works, has all the functions of what we currently have now and doesn't need stability updates every other week? Or was that part of their marketing/rollout plan?
> 
> I do however understand and like the idea of the open architecture of the unit, allowing for future upgrades, but to release it when they did with the amount of work that had/has to be done to make it work reliably seems to lack forsight, or at the least proper beta testing.
> 
> One true fact remains; Directv has release the DVR+ unit without DLB and many people are very unhappy about that. How many? We may never know, but if 1000 "quirky net nerds" voice their opinion here, what segment or percentage does that equate too in the "real world". Whatever that number, Earl has said that Directv feels it's too insignificant. That's what makes me sad. Methinks D* needs a better polling device then if this segment at DBSTalk is insignificant.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I guess you could say inept for putting it off until they couldn't integrate it with the current feature set.

I may not agree with how they released it but I think I understand why.

My theory is that with D10 going up the next year and they had to have an MPEG-4 capable HD DVR ready for the new channels. They wanted to have a box in the supply chain for all the people upgrading or comming to Directv for the new HD.

Unfortunately it wasn't in the best shape when released. However, I feel that now it's a great platform (except for DLB and SL limit).

My non-CE related issues have been few and I haven't lost any more recordings than I did with my TiVo. That isn't to say there aren't people with major problems because there are. IMHO, they are in the minority of subs.

Mike


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> You've got that backward. TIVO didn't hit DISH with any lawsuit; rather *DISH* filed the lawsuit against TIVO.


Here's todays news: http://www.tvpredictions.com/dish060408.htm


----------



## Rich

Here's some more to think about: http://www.tvpredictions.com/dish060408.htm

Rich



MX727 said:


> You are an above average user of the internet. Do a search. Check DirecTV's own forums. There have been at least two new users posting in new threads about "DLB" and if you look at the post count of people in this thread, you will notice that new users are continually coming into it with questions about the missing feature.
> 
> And, speaking of trolling, why do you continue to post in the DLB thread and purport that wanting DLB is wrong or that not having it isn't a big deal? To me, it is *the* deal.
> 
> No need to reply Jeremy or Bolt or whoever you are, I won't see your reply anyway.
> 
> Back on topic.
> 
> My thoughts on DLB:
> 
> I want DLB. I sent my HR-20 back and thankfully was able to get the HR-10. My commitment isn't up until September. I continue to monitor this thread and forum, hoping against hope that I won't have to go through the hassle of switching to Dish, but I will.
> 
> I watch sports. I don't care a bit about all of the other HD offerings. I really don't need HD Weather Channel, but I want to be able to switch between live games and rewind if I missed something. I do record primetime drivel, and watch it at later times, but that isn't my primary use of a DVR.
> 
> I just canceled the NFL package since it won't work in HD this year. Sure, I could watch it in SD, but this is the *only* protest I have at this point. I will cancel DirecTV this September. I'm sorry that it is going to come to that, but they don't seem to care. Of course, once I leave, I know that my brother will follow as well as my parents when their contracts are up. They have DirecTV because I was so happy with the DirecTV/Tivo boxes (SD) I had at the time. I have no hope that DirecTV will have DLB by then.
> 
> I have no illusion that I will save money or get better customer service by switching. What I will get is a DVR that does what I want. As a bonus, I will get MRV.


----------



## jimb726

Flyrx7 said:


> Conscious decision or not, I too feel that it boils down to ineptitude and stubborness.
> 
> Ineptitude or narrow mindedness kept them from specifying the feature in the first place and stubborness to not admit they made a mistake. They've drawn a line in the sand it seems, and are too stubborn and pridefull to admit a mistake.
> 
> If people can't believe the ineptitude statement, then why didn't they release a piece of equipment that works, has all the functions of what we currently have now and doesn't need stability updates every other week? Or was that part of their marketing/rollout plan?
> 
> I do however understand and like the idea of the open architecture of the unit, allowing for future upgrades, but to release it when they did with the amount of work that had/has to be done to make it work reliably seems to lack forsight, or at the least proper beta testing.
> 
> One true fact remains; Directv has release the DVR+ unit without DLB and many people are very unhappy about that. How many? We may never know, but if 1000 "quirky net nerds" voice their opinion here, what segment or percentage does that equate too in the "real world". Whatever that number, Earl has said that Directv feels it's too insignificant. That's what makes me sad. Methinks D* needs a better polling device then if this segment at DBSTalk is insignificant.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I have also read in these threads that stability after implementation was an issue. As you so eloquently point out, the core fuinctions of the DVR have performaed sporadically for a percentage of users, perhaps it is an issue of correcting the base issues before moving forwards. And before someone jumps on with the load of crap about bringing other features on and ignoring DLB, perhaps the other features do not cause problems with the stability like DLB does. Point is, we dont know, most likely will never know. To your point cane you name any big company who has come out and openly admitted that they made a mistake? Without being forced to through a recall or illegal action that was discovered? I sure cannot. I just keep holding out, that eventually it will come about.


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> Oy. You just took the bait.
> 
> If there was really news, why wasn't the news posted instead of a teaser? Oh, that's right, because this is a game to some people.


Drew, I know BJ angers you, but you gotta admit he's persistent and funny. He baited that hook, threw it in the lake and got a fish right away. If it is a game to him, he plays it well.

The stubbornness and ineptitude issue is a little hard to take. All D* wants is subscribers. Why would they deliberately antagonize people? They have been making good business decisions for a while now and I think if they were permitted to enable the DLBs they would have by now.

Look what's happening to Dish right now in it's ongoing legal battles with TiVo:

http://www.tvpredictions.com/dish060408.htm

I've been dealing with a group at D* for several weeks and the answer I got to the DLB issue is that if D* were to enable DLBs they would be infringing on TiVo's patented technology. I don't know if that's true, but the group has been upfront about everything else and I have no reason to doubt them.

I saw a list of DVRs from various manufacturers that have DLBs, but I didn't see anything that told me that they did not have an agreement with TiVo to use them.

Rich


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> I've been dealing with a group at D* for several weeks and the answer I got to the DLB issue is that if D* were to enable DLBs they would be infringing on TiVo's patented technology. I don't know if that's true, but the group has been upfront about everything else and I have no reason to doubt them.
> 
> I saw a list of DVRs from various manufacturers that have DLBs, but I didn't see anything that told me that they did not have an agreement with TiVo to use them.
> 
> Rich


Didn't D* and Tivo sign an agreement giving D* a license to use all of Tivo's patents last year or the year before?

I kind of doubt every other manufacturer except D* has signed an agreement to use DLBs, and, it has been stated by those claiming to be in the circle of trust (ie mods on this site) - it is not a patent issue.


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> To your point cane you name any big company who has come out and openly admitted that they made a mistake? Without being forced to through a recall or illegal action that was discovered? I sure cannot.


I can think of at least one: Union Carbide was facing a hostile take over from GAF back in the early 90s. To counter GAF's attempt, UCC sold off Prestone and Everyready batteries. Those were really profitable entities and when I questioned the wisdom of the sales, I was told that I didn't have the education to understand the reasoning behind the sales.

Two years later, in an article in the Wall Street Journal, UCC's CEO admitted that selling off Prestone and Everyready were the worst decisions he made during his reign of terror.

I took a great deal of pleasure handing that paper to the clown who told me that I was basically too stupid to understand financial decisions.

Rich


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> Didn't D* and Tivo sign an agreement giving D* a license to use all of Tivo's patents last year or the year before?


I don't know. I doubt if TiVo would have let D* use all of it's patented technology. TiVo lost a lot of money when D* started using their own DVRs and stopped, for the most part, supporting TiVos.



> I kind of doubt every other manufacturer except D* has signed an agreement to use DLBs


I did at first, but the more I think about it, it does make sense. Occam's Razor sense, anyhow.



> and, it has been stated by those claiming to be in the circle of trust (ie mods on this site) - it is not a patent issue.


But you never see a source for that info, do you? Besides "Earl says".

Rich


----------



## raott

rich584 said:


> I don't know. I doubt if TiVo would have let D* use all of it's patented technology. TiVo lost a lot of money when D* started using their own DVRs and stopped, for the most part, supporting TiVos.


I misspoke, it wasn't a license, it was an agreement not to sue over patent issues signed in 2006:

"TiVo and DirecTV said Wednesday that they will extend their commercial agreement for three years. 
The agreement will allow existing DirecTV customers using the TiVo digital video recorder to continue to receive maintenance and support from DirecTV. _*As part of the agreement, TiVo and DirecTV also said they wouldn't sue each other over patent rights*_."

http://news.cnet.com/TiVo-and-DirecTV-extend-contract/2100-1038_3-6060475.html


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> I misspoke, it wasn't a license, it was an agreement not to sue over patent issues signed in 2006:
> 
> "TiVo and DirecTV said Wednesday that they will extend their commercial agreement for three years.
> The agreement will allow existing DirecTV customers using the TiVo digital video recorder to continue to receive maintenance and support from DirecTV. _*As part of the agreement, TiVo and DirecTV also said they wouldn't sue each other over patent rights*_."
> 
> http://news.cnet.com/TiVo-and-DirecTV-extend-contract/2100-1038_3-6060475.html


Thanx for the link. You see how well D* is "maintaining" TiVos, don't you? Send one in for replacement and you get a D* DVR in return. No "maintenance" at all.

I'd like to read that agreement in detail. I've never been able to find it on the Net.

Rich


----------



## tthunder38

rich584 said:


> I'd like to read that agreement in detail. I've never been able to find it on the Net.
> 
> Rich


Rich,

The reason you can't find it on the net is from D*'s standpoint you aren't smart enough to understand it! 

T.


----------



## raw121

rich584 - TiVo pattens are a non-issue at this point.

First Directv signed an agreement with TiVo that covered them in the short term.

- Sorry for the repeat of what raott said above.

Second and most important Directv purchased replaytv. This is important because TiVo and replaytv have agreed to not sue each other over pattens as the end result would be mutual destruction.


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> Drew, I know BJ angers you, but you gotta admit he's persistent and funny. He baited that hook, threw it in the lake and got a fish right away. If it is a game to him, he plays it well.
> 
> The stubbornness and ineptitude issue is a little hard to take. All D* wants is subscribers. Why would they deliberately antagonize people? They have been making good business decisions for a while now and I think if they were permitted to enable the DLBs they would have by now.
> 
> Look what's happening to Dish right now in it's ongoing legal battles with TiVo:
> 
> http://www.tvpredictions.com/dish060408.htm
> 
> I've been dealing with a group at D* for several weeks and the answer I got to the DLB issue is that if D* were to enable DLBs they would be infringing on TiVo's patented technology. I don't know if that's true, but the group has been upfront about everything else and I have no reason to doubt them.
> 
> I saw a list of DVRs from various manufacturers that have DLBs, but I didn't see anything that told me that they did not have an agreement with TiVo to use them.
> 
> Rich


How do you figure I bit . I just wanted to know if he had come up with any more wild therioes lately . You said it yourself he's funny  I know his game well and love to play it with him .


----------



## ATARI

<tin_foil_hat>
Maybe D* made a behind closed doors agreement with Tivo not to put DLB in any of their DVRs in exchange for continuing their use of TiVo DVRs, and a promise from Tivo not to sue.
</tin_foil_hat>

Man, I'm bored at work today.


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> I can think of at least one: Union Carbide was facing a hostile take over from GAF back in the early 90s. To counter GAF's attempt, UCC sold off Prestone and Everyready batteries. Those were really profitable entities and when I questioned the wisdom of the sales, I was told that I didn't have the education to understand the reasoning behind the sales.
> 
> Two years later, in an article in the Wall Street Journal, UCC's CEO admitted that selling off Prestone and Everyready were the worst decisions he made during his reign of terror.
> 
> I took a great deal of pleasure handing that paper to the clown who told me that I was basically too stupid to understand financial decisions.
> 
> Rich


I stand corrected, however I will maintain that those cases are extremely far and few between. I cant imagine any circumstance where DirecTv would come out admit this was a mistake especially when people are signing up in record numbers. I dont pertend to know what the behind the scenes circumstances were in your example, but it almost sounds like an admission to try to restore trust ina company after a bad situation.


----------



## Rich

tthunder38 said:


> Rich,
> 
> The reason you can't find it on the net is from D*'s standpoint you aren't smart enough to understand it!
> 
> T.


You mean not educated well enough to understand, right? That guy really pissed me off when he said that. And the day I got to drop the CEOs admission on his desk was extremely satisfying. I would like to have stuffed his college ring...

"Ring Knockers" are a nasty breed.

Rich


----------



## Rich

puffnstuff said:


> How do you figure I bit . I just wanted to know if he had come up with any more wild therioes lately . You said it yourself he's funny  I know his game well and love to play it with him .


Me too, but I lurked and you bit! And he was lurking next to me.

On a thread as long and repetitive as this one is, a little well timed, well written and truly logical humor is needed. And BJ is a hoot.

I fully intend to keep insisting the reason for no DLBs is patent infringement issues until someone proves conclusively that it isn't. And I plan to enjoy doing it. Do I think I'm absolutely right? I'm a raging pessimist, I never think I'm right. Besides it's the only answer that makes sense. Logically.

Do you believe that D* is deliberately alienating subs because, because, what? Why would they do that?

Are they inept or incompetent? No. In a world where HD providers are few, I think D* is the best choice or I wouldn't have it. Like the HR20/21s, they've gotten better in the last year. Regarding customer service I mean.

Rich


----------



## inkahauts

rich584 said:


> Me too, but I lurked and you bit! And he was lurking next to me.
> 
> On a thread as long and repetitive as this one is, a little well timed, well written and truly logical humor is needed. And BJ is a hoot.
> 
> I fully intend to keep insisting the reason for no DLBs is patent infringement issues until someone proves conclusively that it isn't. And I plan to enjoy doing it. Do I think I'm absolutely right? I'm a raging pessimist, I never think I'm right. Besides it's the only answer that makes sense. Logically.
> 
> Do you believe that D* is deliberately alienating subs because, because, what? Why would they do that?
> 
> Are they inept or incompetent? No. In a world where HD providers are few, I think D* is the best choice or I wouldn't have it. Like the HR20/21s, they've gotten better in the last year. Regarding customer service I mean.
> 
> Rich


The reason this thread is still being posted in and the one about what might be coming next is because people would rather complain and post inaccurate and obviously incorrect theories on why they don't have something rather than speculating on what they could be getting soon....


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> The reason this thread is still being posted in and the one about what might be coming next is because people would rather complain and post inaccurate and obviously incorrect theories on why they don't have something rather than speculating on what they could be getting soon....


Or, some people aren't sheep and (after almost three years with the R15) are skeptical of any self serving statement by a corporate officer regarding some "feature" that is coming "soon".


----------



## Rich

raott said:


> Or, some people aren't sheep and (after almost three years with the R15) are skeptical of any self serving statement by a corporate officer regarding some "feature" that is coming "soon".


Ho! Back to the mysterious "feature" again. What DO you think it is? I have no idea. I still think they should concentrate on stability of the platform before adding "bells and whistles".

Now all five of my HR20s are randomly rebooting. I hope they fix this issue in a hurry. I went thru damn near a year with TiVos rebooting randomly and I don't want to go thru it again.

Perhaps, by the time they get the platform stabilized, TiVo and D* will have come to an agreement that will allow DLBs on the 20/21s.

Rich


----------



## Nicholsen

ATARI said:


> <tin_foil_hat>
> Maybe D* made a behind closed doors agreement with Tivo not to put DLB in any of their DVRs in exchange for continuing their use of TiVo DVRs, and a promise from Tivo not to sue.
> </tin_foil_hat>
> 
> Man, I'm bored at work today.


I like Atari's theory/ opinion / speculation. I.E., TIVO and D* signed a truce, but TIVO protected one of the crown jewels (DLB).

As to everyone else's boxes, I think TIVO is now taking a much stronger line on alleged patent infringement. Their ongoing litigation with E* is instructive.

All of the DVR patent holders probably have some ability (however broad or limited) to threaten, block, and/or sue the other players in the industry. This is pretty common in the high tech world. One big benefit to D* from acquiring Replay is that it can now "cross-license" the Replay patents with other DVR patent holders (like TIVO).

This is a pretty complicated game, but owning some of the DVR patents is much, much better than owning none.

For what it's worth, it TIVO just turned an unexpected profit. IMHO, they remain the leader in the DVR space. They were once strategic allies with D*, they are now strategic allies with the cable companies.

Big companies like D* have made big mistakes before. (Take a look at _In Search of Stupidity_, which humorously outlines some of the 30 biggest high tech failures of all time.)


----------



## AZ_Engineer

MicroBeta said:


> The First DLB Thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
> 
> If you go back and read the first thread you'll find that in the begining(late '06 early '07) DirecTV was telling Earl that they were looking into how they want to implement DLB. Implicite in this is they intended to put it in so I don't think they forgot. (this is why I upgraded to the HR20 in Jan '07...I thought it was comming )
> 
> IMHO, I agree that it has gotten too far into fixing bugs and implementing features to code DLB into the system.
> 
> At this point the amount of work necessary and the potential impact on current features will prevent ever putting DLB in the HR20/HR21.
> 
> In the original thread you will find lengthy discussions about the legal aspects complete with links and the issue has been put to rest.
> 
> *The lack of DLB is not and never has been a patent/legal issue.*
> 
> As far as going beyond the current TiVo agreement, the HR2x has a form of auto correction when using FW. That is a TiVo patent. However, what's patented is the method to accomplish the task...not the task itself.
> 
> DLB can be done and in certain unintended ways it actually does it now. I just don't think it's possible to implement as a feature any more.
> 
> Mike


I don't think my supposition and your position around forgot are mutially exclusive. Say they forgot, when they realized they needed it, they "were looking into how they want to implement DLB" and now they realized it's major surgery to the arch to implemement it.

The second point is how much credibility Earl has even though he was not an employee for most of this thread. Is he posting now that he is an employee?

As to the legal thing, I deal with laywers in a huge corporation on a daily basis, and at least at my huge corporation, they a hyper conservative and anything that could even remotely be an issue is blocked by them. One has to realized that in law almost nothing is black and white. It's all shades of gray and interpretation. I can easily imagine many scenarios where DTV legal has decided it's too risky to implement. Also, I'm pretty sure the existing agreement expires in 2010...joe


----------



## Mike Bertelson

AZ_Engineer said:


> I don't think my supposition and your position around forgot are mutially exclusive. Say they forgot, when they realized they needed it, they "were looking into how they want to implement DLB" and now they realized it's major surgery to the arch to implemement it.
> 
> The second point is how much credibility Earl has even though he was not an employee for most of this thread. Is he posting now that he is an employee?
> 
> As to the legal thing, I deal with laywers in a huge corporation on a daily basis, and at least at my huge corporation, they a hyper conservative and anything that could even remotely be an issue is blocked by them. One has to realized that in law almost nothing is black and white. It's all shades of gray and interpretation. I can easily imagine many scenarios where DTV legal has decided it's too risky to implement. Also, I'm pretty sure the existing agreement expires in 2010...joe


Not sure what you're trying to say about Earl... :scratchin

Patent infringement, in particular, is probably awash in grey paint. :lol:

However, the HR2x has features that are similar to TiVo patents now (auto-correction).

Further, most other HD DVR's have DLB and TiVo isn't suing all of them. I don't think they could afford it.

I kinda think that at this point TiVo is a minor, probably negligible, concern in DircTV's consideration of DLB.

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

Probably won't help much, but maybe a post or two here might be in order....

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10396837&returnExpertiseCode=


----------



## dennisj00

I'll reinterate, the workaround SUCKS! You can record one program and HOPEFULLY preserve the live buffer. But ONE wrong button on the remote and the live buffer vanishes.

It was never that difficult with DLB on my Sony T-60.

Just give us one button (the down arrow??) on the remote that gives us the second tuner -- even with a smaller buffer. IT CAN"T BE THAT DIFFICULT!

Just about as much programming as making the record light orange instead of yellow!


----------



## AZ_Engineer

MicroBeta said:


> Not sure what you're trying to say about Earl... :scratchin


RE Earl; Just that it's not clear who he is, and if he really has any special linkage into DTV. He claims to, but this is the anonomous internet, he could just be anyone trying to put their opinions forth.

It is strange that other than Bolt James and Earl speaking apparently unnofficially on the behalf of DTV, DTV chooses to remain silent. I for one wonder why. In my professional role I make sure customers are treated well, and their questions and issues are anwered. I find it hard to believe that DTV doesn't know about this forum or this complaint...joe


----------



## boltjames

Drew2k said:


> If there was really news, why wasn't the news posted instead of a teaser? Oh, that's right, because this is a game to some people.


Wow. DLB is serious stuff, then? Let's look at the list:

1. Record fuel prices, unemployment rising, airlines closing, economic crisis.

2. 69,122 killed in Asian earthquake.

3. Watching two TV shows at the same time with a buffer no longer possible.

DLB is no game. Very serious. Who's making the ribbons and the bumper stickers?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

puffnstuff said:


> How do you figure I bit . I just wanted to know if he had come up with any more wild therioes lately . You said it yourself he's funny  I know his game well and love to play it with him .


Here's my theory:

It's a patent or legal issue.

BJ


----------



## boltjames

rich584 said:


> On a thread as long and repetitive as this one is, a little well timed, well written and truly logical humor is needed. And BJ is a hoot.


This is no hoot. This is serious. This is not a game. Lives are at risk. TV shows must be watched. Simlutaneously.

BJ


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

AZ_Engineer said:


> RE Earl; Just that it's not clear who he is, and if he really has any special linkage into DTV. He claims to, but this is the anonomous internet, he could just be anyone trying to put their opinions forth.
> 
> It is strange that other than Bolt James and Earl speaking apparently unnofficially on the behalf of DTV, DTV chooses to remain silent. I for one wonder why. In my professional role I make sure customers are treated well, and their questions and issues are anwered. I find it hard to believe that DTV doesn't know about this forum or this complaint...joe


Earl has proved time, and time, and time again over the past several years that he is who he says he is, and he does have the connections he said he had... his hiring by DirecTV should be evidence of that. The photos of Tom's "special vacation" several months ago should also be evidence of the connections Earl had. Earls connections offered Tom the chance to go to "disneyland for geeks".

As to DirecTV being silent... That's pretty much corporate America now... Leak the information you want through parties that can't be directly tied to you... that way if things change and the information isn't right anymore... you never really said it.


----------



## luckydob

boltjames said:


> Wow. DLB is serious stuff, then? Let's look at the list:
> 
> 1. Record fuel prices, unemployment rising, airlines closing, economic crisis.
> 
> 2. 69,122 killed in Asian earthquake.
> 
> 3. Watching two TV shows at the same time with a buffer no longer possible.
> 
> DLB is no game. Very serious. Who's making the ribbons and the bumper stickers?
> 
> BJ


1. Stop buying other stuff if you can't afford gas...it's called budgeting. We are NOT in an economic crisis...you may be, but one person does not a crisis make.
2. Hundreds of thousands of people die EVERY DAY from multiple reasons. Somehow the human race moves on... 
3. I STILL want DLB.

I accepted your bait...we can go back and forth if you like; either way...I STILL will want DLB.

Blah.


----------



## inkahauts

raott said:


> Or, some people aren't sheep and (after almost three years with the R15) are skeptical of any self serving statement by a corporate officer regarding some "feature" that is coming "soon".


Never heard them say that anything will come to the R15....

I'm not a sheep for not wanting to reiterate reasons something doesn't exist that are inaccurate. And I take everything with a grain of salt when something is supposed to come out.... Who knows for sure if we will get DLB of some sort... But to keep repeating that we don't have it because its a patent issues is ludicrous. Not only does Tivo not own a patent on it, but even if they or replayTV did (and those two own almost all the patents on DVRs) it still would not hinder Directv's implementation of DLB because they own replaytv and they have an agreement with Tivo that says they can add whatever feature they want because they are paying Tivo some sort of fee.


----------



## inkahauts

Nicholsen said:


> I like Atari's theory/ opinion / speculation. I.E., TIVO and D* signed a truce, but TIVO protected one of the crown jewels (DLB).
> 
> As to everyone else's boxes, I think TIVO is now taking a much stronger line on alleged patent infringement. Their ongoing litigation with E* is instructive.
> 
> All of the DVR patent holders probably have some ability (however broad or limited) to threaten, block, and/or sue the other players in the industry. This is pretty common in the high tech world. One big benefit to D* from acquiring Replay is that it can now "cross-license" the Replay patents with other DVR patent holders (like TIVO).
> 
> This is a pretty complicated game, but owning some of the DVR patents is much, much better than owning none.
> 
> For what it's worth, it TIVO just turned an unexpected profit. IMHO, they remain the leader in the DVR space. They were once strategic allies with D*, they are now strategic allies with the cable companies.
> 
> Big companies like D* have made big mistakes before. (Take a look at _In Search of Stupidity_, which humorously outlines some of the 30 biggest high tech failures of all time.)


Tivo's lawsuit with Dish has nothing to do with DLB.... DLB isn't a crown jewel of Tivo's.... Some think its a crown Jewel of DVR's....


----------



## inkahauts

luckydob said:


> 1. Stop buying other stuff if you can't afford gas...it's called budgeting. We are NOT in an economic crisis...you may be, but one person does not a crisis make.
> 2. Hundreds of thousands of people die EVERY DAY from multiple reasons. Somehow the human race moves on...
> 3. I STILL want DLB.
> 
> I accepted your bait...we can go back and forth if you like; either way...I STILL will want DLB.
> 
> Blah.


:icon_lol: :rotfl:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

AZ_Engineer said:


> RE Earl; Just that it's not clear who he is, and if he really has any special linkage into DTV. He claims to, but this is the anonomous internet, he could just be anyone trying to put their opinions forth.
> 
> It is strange that other than Bolt James and Earl speaking apparently unnofficially on the behalf of DTV, DTV chooses to remain silent. I for one wonder why. In my professional role I make sure customers are treated well, and their questions and issues are anwered. I find it hard to believe that DTV doesn't know about this forum or this complaint...joe


I'll make the assumption by the fact that you only have 14 posts here that you haven't read much of this site.

It's very clear who Earl is. Until a couple of weeks ago he was a Super Moderator for DBSTalk.

Earl setup and ran the Cutting Edge program. Check out the CE Forum... http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=118

As you can see from this link, DirecTV is well aware of this forum.

When Earl said something came from DirecTV it actually came from DirecTV. As a staff member at DBSTalk, Earl posted _*officially*_ on behalf of DirecTV.

Let's be clear about this one thing...BoltJames does not and never has posted unoffically or otherwise on behalf of DirecTV.

Additionally, BoltJames has never claimed to have posted on behalf of DirecTV. In fact if you read throug all his posts in both the DLB threads he actually says everything he posts about how/why DirecTV does something is only his opinion.

52% of BoltJames total posts on this forum have been in this and the previous DLB thread. More than half his 625 posts in two threads.

Google both of them and you will find a lot of interesting info.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Nicholsen said:


> I like Atari's theory/ opinion / speculation. I.E., TIVO and D* signed a truce, but TIVO protected one of the crown jewels (DLB).
> 
> As to everyone else's boxes, I think TIVO is now taking a much stronger line on alleged patent infringement. Their ongoing litigation with E* is instructive.
> 
> All of the DVR patent holders probably have some ability (however broad or limited) to threaten, block, and/or sue the other players in the industry. This is pretty common in the high tech world. One big benefit to D* from acquiring Replay is that it can now "cross-license" the Replay patents with other DVR patent holders (like TIVO).
> 
> This is a pretty complicated game, but owning some of the DVR patents is much, much better than owning none.
> 
> For what it's worth, it TIVO just turned an unexpected profit. IMHO, they remain the leader in the DVR space. They were once strategic allies with D*, they are now strategic allies with the cable companies.
> 
> Big companies like D* have made big mistakes before. (Take a look at _In Search of Stupidity_, which humorously outlines some of the 30 biggest high tech failures of all time.)


Nearly every other HD DVR has DLB.

If it was such a crown jewel, why isn't TiVo suing Motorola or Scientific Atlanta?

If you read through this and the previous DLB thread, you'll see the it is not a patent issue.

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> Wow. DLB is serious stuff, then? Let's look at the list:
> 
> 1. Record fuel prices, unemployment rising, airlines closing, economic crisis.
> 
> 2. 69,122 killed in Asian earthquake.
> 
> 3. Watching two TV shows at the same time with a buffer no longer possible.
> 
> DLB is no game. Very serious. Who's making the ribbons and the bumper stickers?
> 
> BJ





boltjames said:


> This is no hoot. This is serious. This is not a game. Lives are at risk. TV shows must be watched. Simlutaneously.
> 
> BJ


A little common sense and keeping things in context will go a long way....



boltjames said:


> Here's my theory:
> 
> It's a patent or legal issue.
> 
> BJ


Dude, you've got nothing better than that tired old argument??

BTW, a totally shot down argument at that. 

Mike


----------



## kokishin

Deadbolt rating: 0.



boltjames said:


> Wow. DLB is serious stuff, then? Let's look at the list:
> 
> 1. Record fuel prices, unemployment rising, airlines closing, economic crisis.
> 
> 2. 69,122 killed in Asian earthquake.
> 
> 3. Watching two TV shows at the same time with a buffer no longer possible.
> 
> DLB is no game. Very serious. Who's making the ribbons and the bumper stickers?
> 
> BJ


----------



## ATARI

kokishin said:


> Deadbolt rating: 0.


:lol:


----------



## ATARI

The funny (or not) thing about this, is that TiVo does have patents for the slip feature and the auto-correct after ff/rew, but does not have a patent on DLB.

So what do the HR2x have? The two patented features, but not the unpatented one.

Crazy!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> The funny (or not) thing about this, is that TiVo does have patents for the slip feature and the auto-correct after ff/rew, but does not have a patent on DLB.
> 
> So what do the HR2x have? The two patented features, but not the unpatented one.
> 
> Crazy!!


IIRC, the TiVo patent talks about buffering 1 or more tuners.

I guess, technically, it would apply to any DVR with a buffer...

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

Question:

Since D* and Tivo are buddies again, what's the likelyhood that Tivo would make a new MPEG4 box for D*? 

Frank


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Question:
> 
> Since D* and Tivo are buddies again, what's the likelyhood that Tivo would make a new MPEG4 box for D*?
> 
> Frank


This has been asked before.

The answer has always been that it's not going to happen.

So, unless somethings changed.....

Mike


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> This is no hoot. This is serious. This is not a game. Lives are at risk. TV shows must be watched. Simlutaneously.
> 
> BJ


Perhaps we should find out exactly where the office of the president or CEO of D* is and, remotes in hand, storm the bastions of D* and demand DLBs. Worked well for the French when they stormed the Bastille.

Not that I want to see this thread end. Aside from the threads about the problems with various DVRs, this is the most entertaining thread on the forum.

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Here's my theory:
> 
> It's a patent or legal issue.
> 
> BJ


From what I can gather, that is correct. TiVo really got hurt by D* and I can't believe they have any love for D*.

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Perhaps we should find out exactly where the office of the president or CEO of D* is and, remotes in hand, storm the bastions of D* and demand DLBs. Worked well for the French when they stormed the Bastille.
> 
> Not that I want to see this thread end. Aside from the threads about the problems with various DVRs, this is the most entertaining thread on the forum.
> 
> Rich


Who's bringing the pitchforks and torches....:lol:

Mike


----------



## Rich

luckydob said:


> 1. Stop buying other stuff if you can't afford gas...it's called budgeting. We are NOT in an economic crisis...you may be, but one person does not a crisis make.


He doesn't care about the price of gas any more than I do. And I'm reasonably certain that he is not anywhere near an economic crisis.



> 2. Hundreds of thousands of people die EVERY DAY from multiple reasons. Somehow the human race moves on...


You're right. When you have at least six billion people living on our little planet, what's a few thousand more deaths caused by a catastrophe?



> 3. I STILL want DLB.


And as long as it doesn't hurt the OS of the 20/21s, I hope you get them.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Question:
> 
> Since D* and Tivo are buddies again, what's the likelyhood that Tivo would make a new MPEG4 box for D*?
> 
> Frank


What makes you think that they are "buddies"? D* put a real hurting on TiVo and I doubt that TiVo will forget that anytime in the near future.

Rich


----------



## RCY

What's really funny is that since this thread has been "un-stickied", the number of posts has gone up...


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> Who's bringing the pitchforks and torches....:lol:
> 
> Mike


As long as we have our remotes in hand, we shall overcome.

Rich


----------



## Rich

RCY said:


> What's really funny is that since this thread has been "un-stickied", the number of posts has gone up...


I hate to admit this, but I have no idea what a "sticky" thread is. Perhaps you could explain this to me and all the others who don't understand.

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> IIRC, the TiVo patent talks about buffering 1 or more tuners.
> 
> I guess, technically, it would apply to any DVR with a buffer...
> 
> Mike


Mike, that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. I know how much a lawsuit costs and I don't know if TiVo has enough in it's war chest to take on everyone at once. The suit against Dish has been going on for a long time and TiVo lost a huge amount of subs when D* switched to it's own DVRs.

If TiVo does prevail against Dish, perhaps another provider will be next.

Again, I still haven't seen any conclusive proof that fear of getting involved in a long, expensive patent infringement suit isn't deterring D* from enabling DLBs.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Question:
> 
> Since D* and Tivo are buddies again, what's the likelyhood that Tivo would make a new MPEG4 box for D*?
> 
> Frank


And the cost of the enhanced TiVo would be how much? Can't beat the cost of the 20/21s.

And besides, I'm bored by TiVos and I've spent enough money over the years on TiVos.

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> I'll make the assumption by the fact that you only have 14 posts here that you haven't read much of this site.


Every time I make that assumption I get flamed.



> Let's be clear about this one thing...BoltJames does not and never has posted unoffically or otherwise on behalf of DirecTV.
> 
> Additionally, BoltJames has never claimed to have posted on behalf of DirecTV. In fact if you read throug all his posts in both the DLB threads he actually says everything he posts about how/why DirecTV does something is only his opinion.


Where do you think AZ_Engineer got that idea from? That's what troubles me about forums, people form opinions without proof and expect to be taken seriously. And come to believe firmly that their opinions must be correct because...why?

Rich


----------



## Flyrx7

rich584 said:


> What makes you think that they are "buddies"? D* put a real hurting on TiVo and I doubt that TiVo will forget that anytime in the near future.
> 
> Rich


I may have mis-spoke. I was assuming that since Tivo was still providing software updates for the H10-250 that they were on good terms again.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4330098

I have a feeling that while D* hurt Tivo's bottom line, that D* must have spent some major moola to get back to their current relationship. Just a guess though.

Frank


----------



## Drew2k

boltjames said:


> Wow. DLB is serious stuff, then? Let's look at the list:
> 
> 1. Record fuel prices, unemployment rising, airlines closing, economic crisis.
> 
> 2. 69,122 killed in Asian earthquake.
> 
> 3. Watching two TV shows at the same time with a buffer no longer possible.
> 
> DLB is no game. Very serious. Who's making the ribbons and the bumper stickers?
> 
> BJ


Here's the difference between us: I don't cut and run. I don't post in the D11 satellite thread that I've got news and then scurry away. I don't post in the thread about new HD channels that I've got news and then scurry away. You do that though - you come to a thread about DLB, post you have news, and then scurry away. So yes, you're playing games.

And you're first response after being challenged that you have no news is not to provide the missing "news", it's to attack the challenger. Nice.

BJ, meet my ignore list. You've just made it.


----------



## RCY

rich584 said:


> I hate to admit this, but I have no idea what a "sticky" thread is. Perhaps you could explain this to me and all the others who don't understand.
> 
> Rich


A "sticky" thread is a thread that is always shown on the first page of the forum at the top of the page. There could be no post there for years on a given thread, but if it is "sticky", it always shows up on the top of the first page for the fourm. This forum is "DIRECTV Plus High Definition DVR Discussion".

I think the intention was that if the DLB discussion was "un-stickied", it would fall off the first page. It was hoped, after time, no one would post to this thread. If it was sticky, it would always be at the top of the page whether it was posted to or not. I think the whole DLB discussion makes D* uncomfortable and they would be happy if the discussion just went away. (Though this isn't really a D* sponsored board I think those who run the site try to keep cordial relations with D*. Just my speculation on the reason for removing the sticky.)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Mike, that's exactly the point I've been trying to make. I know how much a lawsuit costs and I don't know if TiVo has enough in it's war chest to take on everyone at once. The suit against Dish has been going on for a long time and TiVo lost a huge amount of subs when D* switched to it's own DVRs.
> 
> If TiVo does prevail against Dish, perhaps another provider will be next.
> 
> Again, I still haven't seen any conclusive proof that fear of getting involved in a long, expensive patent infringement suit isn't deterring D* from enabling DLBs.
> 
> Rich


I don't have any proof.

However, the HR2x has TiVo features, so why would DLB be the only feature Directv is worried about?

Why not the others?

Mike


----------



## jimb726

MicroBeta said:


> I don't have any proof.
> 
> However, the HR2x has TiVo features, so why would DLB be the only feature Directv is worried about?
> 
> Why not the others?
> 
> Mike


Well based on this and the other thread, perhaps its the fact that it is their most popular feature? There wasnt this outcry when autocorrect was missing at the outset.


----------



## Rich

Thanx, I've been meaning to ask for...years and never did. Good, clear explanation. God, I feel dumb at times (oops, opened a door there).

Rich



RCY said:


> A "sticky" thread is a thread that is always shown on the first page of the forum at the top of the page. There could be no post there for years on a given thread, but if it is "sticky", it always shows up on the top of the first page for the fourm. This forum is "DIRECTV Plus High Definition DVR Discussion".
> 
> I think the intention was that if the DLB discussion was "un-stickied", it would fall off the first page. It was hoped, after time, no one would post to this thread. If it was sticky, it would always be at the top of the page whether it was posted to or not. I think the whole DLB discussion makes D* uncomfortable and they would be happy if the discussion just went away. (Though this isn't really a D* sponsored board I think those who run the site try to keep cordial relations with D*. Just my speculation on the reason for removing the sticky.)


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> I may have mis-spoke. I was assuming that since Tivo was still providing software updates for the H10-250 that they were on good terms again.
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4330098
> 
> I have a feeling that while D* hurt Tivo's bottom line, that D* must have spent some major moola to get back to their current relationship. Just a guess though.
> 
> Frank


I had read that, but had no idea where. Thanx for the link.

If you'll note, that article says that TiVo's OS will be upgraded (just got it the other day), but nothing about D*s DVRs being upgraded with TiVo features. I also think TiVo desperately wants to maintain it's D* subs.

Seems like it is kinda like two guys who just got done fighting. One won and the other was badly beaten. They shake hands and say "No hard feelings". The loser always remembers the beating. And TiVo was badly beaten and must still be suffering from the lost subs from D*, don't you think?

Still the article would lead you to believe...

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> I don't have any proof.
> 
> However, the HR2x has TiVo features, so why would DLB be the only feature Directv is worried about?
> 
> Why not the others?
> 
> Mike


I don't see how a DVR cannot have TiVo features. Or are they Ultimate TV DVR features or Replay features? I don't know which one came first.

VCRs all shared features. VHS and Beta Max shared features. Macs and PCs share features. I think that entities that basically do the same thing (for instance, record and playback) are going to share basic features.

I truly think that the problem lies with patent infringement issues. That, to me, is the simplest answer and the easiest to understand. Occam's Razor, a philosophy to live by.

Without irrefutable proof of something, this is all speculation. We might never know the reason. Has anyone ever thought of that? I've read most of both DLB threads and I've not seen this in any post. Suppose we are going thru all this angst and in the end DLBs magically appear without any notice other than that they are now available. THAT would be a HOOT!

Rich


----------



## Rich

Drew2k said:


> BJ, meet my ignore list. You've just made it.


Oh no, Drew, please don't ignore him. I look forward to your responses to his (how shall I put this, not wanting to anger either of you?), to BJ's logical arguments. You're the only one who's stood up to him in a rational manner.

Please reconsider,

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> I don't have any proof.


Mike, here's another thought: Why don't we have proof? I've contacted TiVo by phone and, of course, D*. Nobody tells you anything.

I can't think of a way to make myself sit here and search for the correct information on who owns what patent. But somebody should. There has to be someone on this thread that knows how to search for patent info. I thought when I joined the forum that the main point was to learn, and all these posts are pure speculation. Not that there's anything wrong with that (a Seinfeld moment).

I wonder how long it will be until someone posts: PROOF, you want PROOF, I'll give you PROOF?

Rich


----------



## Flyrx7

Proof? You want proof? You can't handle the proof! :new_cussi

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the official Directv stance on DLB is to pretend it, this thread, or the public outcry for DLB, doesn't exist. Ignore at all costs. Or so it would seem.

Frank


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> Well based on this and the other thread, perhaps its the fact that it is their most popular feature? There wasnt this outcry when autocorrect was missing at the outset.


Not to argue, but I would think that if every DVR user was to be surveyed and asked if they used DLBs or even cared about them, the majority, by a wide margin, wouldn't care or wouldn't even be aware of them.

We are a minority. The vast number of DVR users on D* is far greater than the number of people on this forum.

My wife's a good example. She has never used a buffer and she watches as much TV as I do. She has less trouble with the Peanut mote than D*'s mote. She can program Series Links on both platforms. All she cares about is that there are shows recorded that she wants to see when she wants to see them. So, she knows how to use a DVR up to that point. And doesn't care about anything else. Record and playback. As do the great majority of DVR users.

I still go in homes that have VCRs that have flashing 12:00 clock displays. An awful lot of people that bought VCRs never learned to do more than pop in a Blockbuster movie

The fact that we know how to use these things and what to expect from them has no bearing on the majority of DVR users.

We are a minority.

Rich


----------



## Flyrx7

rich584 said:


> Not to argue, but I would think that if every DVR user was to be surveyed and asked if they used DLBs or even cared about them, the majority, by a wide margin, wouldn't care or wouldn't even be aware of them.
> 
> We are a minority. The vast number of DVR users on D* is far greater than the number of people on this forum.
> 
> Rich


We may be small, but we can be loud.
What other features do people want? MRV?, Are they as adamant as the DLB crowd? How many of them are there?

Our mission should be to keep this topic in front of Directv anyway we can, just so that they know we won't go quietly. Pretty soon they just get tired of us and have to give in, just to keep us quiet. (at least that's my plan)

Frank


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Proof? You want proof? You can't handle the proof! :new_cussi
> 
> I'm becoming more and more convinced that the official Directv stance on DLB is to pretend it, this thread, or the public outcry for DLB, doesn't exist. Ignore at all costs. Or so it would seem.
> 
> Frank


See post #1894. Perhaps you are correct, Frank, and a "conspiracy of silence" is being used by D*. Simpler than patent infringements. And easily explainable. A better example of Occam's Razor.

We are a minority.

Rich


----------



## RCY

rich584 said:


> Not to argue, but I would think that if every DVR user was to be surveyed and asked if they used DLBs or even cared about them, the majority, by a wide margin, wouldn't care or wouldn't even be aware of them.
> 
> We are a minority. The vast number of DVR users on D* is far greater than the number of people on this forum.
> 
> My wife's a good example. She has never used a buffer and she watches as much TV as I do. She has less trouble with the Peanut mote than D*'s mote. She can program Series Links on both platforms. All she cares about is that there are shows recorded that she wants to see when she wants to see them. So, she knows how to use a DVR up to that point. And doesn't care about anything else. Record and playback. As do the great majority of DVR users....


My wife doesn't have any idea what DLB means, but she uses it everyday. Puts one buffer on whatever is on Game Show Network, and the other on another channel she's vaguely interested in. Would she have found the capability on her own? Probably not. But she was disappointed when she heard the HR21 doesn't have the function of DLB. (Even if she doesn't know the acronym)


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> Not to argue, but I would think that if every DVR user was to be surveyed and asked if they used DLBs or even cared about them, the majority, by a wide margin, wouldn't care or wouldn't even be aware of them.
> 
> We are a minority. The vast number of DVR users on D* is far greater than the number of people on this forum.
> 
> My wife's a good example. She has never used a buffer and she watches as much TV as I do. She has less trouble with the Peanut mote than D*'s mote. She can program Series Links on both platforms. All she cares about is that there are shows recorded that she wants to see when she wants to see them. So, she knows how to use a DVR up to that point. And doesn't care about anything else. Record and playback. As do the great majority of DVR users.
> 
> I still go in homes that have VCRs that have flashing 12:00 clock displays. An awful lot of people that bought VCRs never learned to do more than pop in a Blockbuster movie
> 
> The fact that we know how to use these things and what to expect from them has no bearing on the majority of DVR users.
> 
> We are a minority.
> 
> Rich


Well that's you . Nobody I know even as a VCR anymore . Out of the 10 ( edit 9 I forgot about mom ) people in my immediate family that have HR's every single one of them wanted to know where the button to get to the other tuner was . Thats people that range from 22-78 . Now only 3 or 4 of them knew about DLB the others just know that when you press a button magic happens . Also some of them are really dumb about tech stuff but they knew and importanat feature was gone from thie box . Bothered my mom enough to switch to cable . So for every person like your wife do we know there aren't a thousand more like my mom . One other thing I have told all of those people about the Vod , mediashare and such . They all said no thank you , even after offering to do it for them .


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> We may be small, but we can be loud.
> What other features do people want? MRV?, Are they as adamant as the DLB crowd? How many of them are there?
> 
> Our mission should be to keep this topic in front of Directv anyway we can, just so that they know we won't go quietly. Pretty soon they just get tired of us and have to give in, just to keep us quiet. (at least that's my plan)
> 
> Frank


I gotta tell you, I don't get MRV at all. And yet that will become a feature that the public will go for.

Does D* care? Is this over patent infringement issue? Will we ever know? Does the Shadow know?

Rich


----------



## Flyrx7

rich584 said:


> We are a minority.
> 
> Rich


Quit the understatement, really.

16 million D* subscribers @ $1000 a year (avg $80 per mos)= $16 billion a year revenue.

Roughly 1100 positive voters in this poll @ $1440 a year (avg $120 per mos, we are tech geeks afterall. Right?)=$1.58 million, or .01% of the total bucket, not even a drop, really.

But that's just this forum, actually, just the people who care enough to vote in this thread. I have to believe, contrary to some unpopular census, that we are not the only ones that care about DLB. Just the ones the want to be heard. How many members of this forum are there? Over 60,000, of which 1100 positive votes, so about 2% of the forum population.

Using that 2% rule of thumb from 16 million subcribers, that would mean about 320 thousand positive voters, and at $1440 per year= $460 Million. 
So, for those that really want DLB, that is the amount of money they are paying Directv. I would think that should count for something.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Flyrx7

Flyrx7 said:


> Using that 2% rule of thumb from 16 million subcribers, that would mean about 320 thousand positive voters, and at $1440 per year= $460 Million.


Heck. If a group of people were responsible for paying my company $460 million dollars a year, whether it's 3.5% of my total revenue or 50% of my total revenue, I would think about putting an emphasis on their concerns. That's no paltry sum. I would think some of that $460 million could pay (1) official spokesman to right a sentence or two with some sort of believable content that might at least let us know we are being heard. Don't you think?

Regards,
Frank

(idle mind)


----------



## Flyrx7

rich584 said:


> See post #1894. Perhaps you are correct, Frank, and a "conspiracy of silence" is being used by D*. Simpler than patent infringements. And easily explainable. A better example of Occam's Razor.
> 
> We are a minority.
> 
> Rich


Actually, the "conspiricy of silence" (good movie title) is just the end result from the lack of DLB, not the reason *for* the lack of DLB. It's just their stance for not delivering, not necessarily the why.

Frank
(bored at the office)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Mike, here's another thought: Why don't we have proof? I've contacted TiVo by phone and, of course, D*. Nobody tells you anything.
> 
> I can't think of a way to make myself sit here and search for the correct information on who owns what patent. But somebody should. There has to be someone on this thread that knows how to search for patent info. I thought when I joined the forum that the main point was to learn, and all these posts are pure speculation. Not that there's anything wrong with that (a Seinfeld moment).
> 
> I wonder how long it will be until someone posts: PROOF, you want PROOF, I'll give you PROOF?
> 
> Rich


I don't know how to get proof.

However, in the following list of some patent discussions from the previous thread.

There are links to TiVo patents. I've read most of what I could find and there is no mention of patenting of buffering two tuners. You be the judge.

BTW, you'll find Earl saying over and over it's not a patent/legal issue...FWIW :grin:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1409614&postcount=2655

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1392257&postcount=2510

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1390433&postcount=2484

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343456&postcount=2305

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343588&postcount=2306

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343764&postcount=2307

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1338384&postcount=2263

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1338506&postcount=2264

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=899334&postcount=556

Have fun...

Mike


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> Not to argue, but I would think that if every DVR user was to be surveyed and asked if they used DLBs or even cared about them, the majority, by a wide margin, wouldn't care or wouldn't even be aware of them.
> 
> We are a minority. The vast number of DVR users on D* is far greater than the number of people on this forum.
> 
> My wife's a good example. She has never used a buffer and she watches as much TV as I do. She has less trouble with the Peanut mote than D*'s mote. She can program Series Links on both platforms. All she cares about is that there are shows recorded that she wants to see when she wants to see them. So, she knows how to use a DVR up to that point. And doesn't care about anything else. Record and playback. As do the great majority of DVR users.
> 
> I still go in homes that have VCRs that have flashing 12:00 clock displays. An awful lot of people that bought VCRs never learned to do more than pop in a Blockbuster movie
> 
> The fact that we know how to use these things and what to expect from them has no bearing on the majority of DVR users.
> 
> We are a minority.
> 
> Rich


I understand that, but minority or not, it is the most highly desired feature after the base functions of the DVR and I would imagine that someone realizes that. Id doesnt matter if its 100 people or a million. As has been pointed out numerous times, most people know that it is there, they just dont know what it is called, but they realize it is missing when they get the new reciever.


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Quit the understatement, really.
> 
> 16 million D* subscribers @ $1000 a year (avg $80 per mos)= $16 billion a year revenue.
> 
> Roughly 1100 positive voters in this poll @ $1440 a year (avg $120 per mos, we are tech geeks afterall. Right?)=$1.58 million, or .01% of the total bucket, not even a drop, really.
> 
> But that's just this forum, actually, just the people who care enough to vote in this thread. I have to believe, contrary to some unpopular census, that we are not the only ones that care about DLB. Just the ones the want to be heard. How many members of this forum are there? Over 60,000, of which 1100 positive votes, so about 2% of the forum population.
> 
> Using that 2% rule of thumb from 16 million subcribers, that would mean about 320 thousand positive voters, and at $1440 per year= $460 Million.
> So, for those that really want DLB, that is the amount of money they are paying Directv. I would think that should count for something.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I think you misunderstood me, Frank. When I used the term "minority", I meant that we understood the technology better than the majority of D*'s subscribers. I have written or called several technological entities in the last few years and have been told that even my limited knowledge of the technology was so much greater than the "normal" customer that they would consider me in the "minority". D* has told me this on several occasions.

Your figures are a little off. I believe that at last count D* had over 17 million subs and I think your guestimate of the monthly bill is a tad low. I've always wondered exactly what their revenue stream worked out to. I understand it's expensive to launch satellites, but that's still an awful lot of money a month they have coming in.

I pay over two hundred a month and all I want is a stable platform that records and replays reliably. And I think if you want DLBs as badly as you do, D* should do everything it can to enable the feature. If they can legally. Which is what I doubt.

I can't believe that money is a problem. I can't believe that stubbornness is a factor. I can't even believe that ineptitude is a factor, although I do think it was pretty inept of D* to introduce the HR20 in 06 to an unsuspecting public.

I'm going to make my "understatement" a little clearer: We are DVR Geeks, the great majority of DVR users are not. We are in the "minority".

Rich


----------



## bhelton71

rich584 said:


> <clip>
> Your figures are a little off. I believe that at last count D* had over 17 million subs and I think your guestimate of the monthly bill is a tad low.
> 
> <clip>


Actually you are both close enough 



> The DBS giant netted 275,000 customers during the three-month period, taking its customer count past the 17 million mark.





> First quarter ARPU jumped to $79.70, up from $73.40 reported for the same quarter last year.


http://www.skyreport.com/archives/view/?publication_id=1&release_id=797


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Heck. If a group of people were responsible for paying my company $460 million dollars a year, whether it's 3.5% of my total revenue or 50% of my total revenue, I would think about putting an emphasis on their concerns. That's no paltry sum. I would think some of that $460 million could pay (1) official spokesman to right a sentence or two with some sort of believable content that might at least let us know we are being heard. Don't you think?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank
> 
> (idle mind)


I understand that completely. But you're dealing with a corporation and that kinda throws logic out the window. I know that the corporation I worked for was extremely close mouthed and the corporation my wife works for is the same way. Conservative and tight lipped. Just the nature of the beast.

I have a feeling that if they do enable the function, we will never find out what took so long and why they finally did it. Or were allowed to do it without fear of a lawsuit.

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> I don't know how to get proof.


Aw Mike, you didn't have to go thru all that work. That wasn't my intention. I've read most of the posts too and still see an awful lot of speculation.

I'm not saying anything bad about Earl. He helped me get going on more than one occasion. I never forget a kindness. But, he was not omnipotent, and I'm not really sure if he was privy to the reasons for not having DLBs at the various times he posted. I've worked for various companies as a "consultant" and I've never had insider information that I thought was reliable enough to be quoted.

Rich


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> I understand that, but minority or not, it is the most highly desired feature after the base functions of the DVT


What the devil is a "DVT"? Yet another acronym I've never heard of?



> most people know that it is there, they just dont know what it is called, but they realize it is missing when they get the new reciever.


I had to ask a few months ago what DLBs were and what their purpose was. I've never used them and I just didn't understand what the uproar was all about. And I've had many DVRs since 02. But I've always had multiple (as many as 13 running at one time) DVRs and had no need of DLBs. And I think that a lot of multiple DVR users are not used to using the function. If you only have one in a room, and have to watch two games "live", I can see a reason for it.

Rich


----------



## Rich

bhelton71 said:


> Actually you are both close enough
> 
> http://www.skyreport.com/archives/view/?publication_id=1&release_id=797


Great link! Thanx, I subscribed. Now if someone could just come with something like that explaining the lack of DLBs on D*, I would consider that "proof".

Surprised I am that the average monthly bill was so low, I would have thought it would be closer the one hundred dollar per month mark.

Thanx again,
Rich


----------



## ATARI

rich584 said:


> I gotta tell you, I don't get MRV at all. And yet that will become a feature that the public will go for.
> 
> Does D* care? Is this over patent infringement issue? Will we ever know? Does the Shadow know?
> 
> Rich


I don't see a 1900+ post thread for MRV, that's for sure.


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> What the devil is a "DVT"? Yet another acronym I've never heard of?
> 
> I had to ask a few months ago what DLBs were and what their purpose was. I've never used them and I just didn't understand what the uproar was all about. And I've had many DVRs since 02. But I've always had multiple (as many as 13 running at one time) DVRs and had no need of DLBs. And I think that a lot of multiple DVR users are not used to using the function. If you only have one in a room, and have to watch two games "live", I can see a reason for it.
> 
> Rich


Whoops "DVR" fat fingered the keyboard, sorry. The "R" and the "T" are right next to each other.


----------



## Rich

ATARI said:


> I don't see a 1900+ post thread for MRV, that's for sure.


I watched a commercial last night that addressed the FIOS MRV function and I still don't get the point unless you have 4 or 5 Hi Def TVs and one or two DVRS. How would that work with, say, 9 DVRs?

Can't someone who can afford multiple HD TVs also afford to give each TV at least one DVR? Or am I looking at this wrong?

Rich


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> Whoops "DVR" fat fingered the keyboard, sorry. The "R" and the "T" are right next to each other.


Messed up my mind, you did! Which brings me to a question: Anyone ever seen an illuminated wireless keyboard? With larger keys. These "one size fits all" keyboard are not for the large handed. Yet another act of "size" discrimination. Who decided on the size of these teeny keyboards? Yet another reason I refuse to buy a laptop.

Rich


----------



## dennisj00

ATARI said:


> I don't see a 1900+ post thread for MRV, that's for sure.


I think that's simply explained that they didn't pull MRV out of the DVR 'upgrades' and we've been 'assured' (maybe that's too strong a word) that MRV is coming.

As opposed to the smoke and mirrors that DLB wasn't included for reasons that we'll SOON see ?? Or the quoted / mis-quoted (?) "Something better than DLB is coming" that no one can figure out. By that explanation, it could be an orange record light!! (currently in the latest CE)

Just give us one button and a small buffer to see what's going on on the second tuner. I repeat -- It CAN'T be that difficult!! (Or have that much impact on future features!)


----------



## fujirich

rich584 said:


> I watched a commercial last night that addressed the FIOS MRV function and I still don't get the point unless you have 4 or 5 Hi Def TVs and one or two DVRS. How would that work with, say, 9 DVRs?
> 
> Can't someone who can afford multiple HD TVs also afford to give each TV at least one DVR? Or am I looking at this wrong?
> 
> Rich


Perhaps you haven't considered the options, but I can only tell you my reasons for I wanting MRV so much.

I have 4 HDTV's, and I'm fine with one DVR and three other receivers. Why would I want to program four different DVR's identically so that I could access the programing I might want to see on any of them?

Better yet, why can't we just save recorded programing to a NAS or server on the network and have any receiver be able to access and play from there? That won't happen, so a DVR with MRV is the only option.


----------



## Rich

fujirich said:


> Perhaps you haven't considered the options, but I can only tell you my reasons for I wanting MRV so much.


Honestly, I just began to consider the function. I don't see how I could use it, but I am willing to learn.



> I have 4 HDTV's, and I'm fine with one DVR and three other receivers. Why would I want to program four different DVR's identically so that I could access the programing I might want to see on any of them?


I don't program my DVRs identically. I do use them for backing up programs that I really want to see. We move from family room to family room to the living room depending on what we want to see that night. Been doing that since the early 80s when I was using cable boxes feeding 12 VCRs. We rarely watch live TV, so I gather our viewing habits are different than yours. I only have DVRs. Haven't had a plain receiver since I discovered the wonderful world of DVRs.



> Better yet, why can't we just save recorded programing to a NAS or server on the network and have any receiver be able to access and play from there? That won't happen, so a DVR with MRV is the only option.


Actually, you could do that if all the eSATAs on an account could be used with any 20/21 within the same account. I don't see that coming anytime soon. And I'd much rather have that functionality than DLBs or MRV. But, remember, that's just my opinion, not a statement of fact or a reason for an argument.

Rich


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> I watched a commercial last night that addressed the FIOS MRV function and I still don't get the point unless you have 4 or 5 Hi Def TVs and one or two DVRS. How would that work with, say, 9 DVRs?
> 
> Can't someone who can afford multiple HD TVs also afford to give each TV at least one DVR? Or am I looking at this wrong?
> 
> Rich


What makes MRV so nice is the fact that multiple DVR's do not have to have repeatable programming on it. Example, my wife records all of her "chick" shows on the main DVR and duplicates many of them on the one in the master bedroom. If we had MRV, she could just watch her shows up in her bedroom when she went to bed. Also them it sould free up other DVR's to record other shows, possibly eliminating conflicting recordings.


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> What makes MRV so nice is the fact that multiple DVR's do not have to have repeatable programming on it. Example, my wife records all of her "chick" shows on the main DVR and duplicates many of them on the one in the master bedroom. If we had MRV, she could just watch her shows up in her bedroom when she went to bed. Also them it sould free up other DVR's to record other shows, possibly eliminating conflicting recordings.


So, how would it work with 9 DVRs? I've never networked any of my DVRs, mainly because I have so many. Too much work.

Rich


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> So, how would it work with 9 DVRs? I've never networked any of my DVRs, mainly because I have so many. Too much work.
> 
> Rich


I couldnt even fathom, other than the fact that you would be able to share the content from all 9 on any TV in your house. Sounds to me like you got a radioactive hot bed going there!!!:eek2:


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> I watched a commercial last night that addressed the FIOS MRV function and I still don't get the point unless you have 4 or 5 Hi Def TVs and one or two DVRS. How would that work with, say, 9 DVRs?
> 
> Can't someone who can afford multiple HD TVs also afford to give each TV at least one DVR? Or am I looking at this wrong?
> 
> Rich


Nope, I think that you hit the nail on the head for the multiple HDTV user. I only have one really nice HDTV, so why on earth would I need MRV to stream content to any other screens? I thought that the definition of "Home Theater" was a room with an awesome system, ONE awesome system.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Aw Mike, you didn't have to go thru all that work. That wasn't my intention. I've read most of the posts too and still see an awful lot of speculation.
> 
> I'm not saying anything bad about Earl. He helped me get going on more than one occasion. I never forget a kindness. But, he was not omnipotent, and I'm not really sure if he was privy to the reasons for not having DLBs at the various times he posted. I've worked for various companies as a "consultant" and I've never had insider information that I thought was reliable enough to be quoted.
> 
> Rich


No biggie...

I didn't think you were pushing for any kind of response from me. I just think this is an interesting issue and thought it would be fun to toss around some ideas.

Let me make this case.....

The DLB patent issue one of the few things Earl was adamant about in the DLB thread. However, I see you point that it is unverifiable. Although, I don't think any one can say that Earl's statements on this are anecdotal or baseless opinion either.

IMHO, there are plenty of tangible indicators to look at.


There is a current agreement between DirecTV and TiVo with specific clauses on infringement that allow DirecTV put features in their DRVs. 
There are features in the HR2x that are currently patented by TiVo...e.g. AutoCorrection.
Further, I've seen nothing that says in 2010 DirecTV will have to remove any features patented by TiVo and implemented during that were implemented during contract period.
We may not have all the specifics of the contract but I'll guarantee you that both TiVo & DirecTV have taken great pains to protect their intellectual property and revenues when the agreement period ends.

I gotta believe that TiVo's lawyers fully considered that fact that they were agreeing to let DirecTV put any of TiVo's patented features into their DVRs without reprisal....and that DirecTV's lawyers were going to ensure that they don't have to remove features from their DVR's in 2010.

I'm and Engineer and have I have to deal with intellectual property and patents and I can tell you that without a doubt, they are the life blood of these two companies.

We're talking about Billions of dollars at stake here. Provisions have already been made for what happens after the contracts run out and they've taken all necessary steps to protect themselves down the road.

If not that would be hole in the contract big enough to sail a battleship through. :eek2:

FWIW this has been my opinion on the patent issue. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

rich584 said:


> I think you misunderstood me, Frank. When I used the term "minority", I meant that we understood the technology better than the majority of D*'s subscribers.


Actually, I think the term "minority" pretty well sums up the whole DLB issue quite nicely:
- We probably *are* a bit more savvy than most subs.
- We are a small number of people that want a missing/lacking feature.

Regardless, however, the percentages are probably fairly close for each category but in the end it really doesn't matter. Being a savvy DVR hipster or a boisterous little bunch of beggers, neither one will likely speed up or influence Directv's decision in this.

Although, this statement from the CEO of Directv gives me a little hope (but just a little)

"CEO Chase Carey saying the company's strategy "of offering the best television experience to higher quality customers continues to drive superior financial results."

That taken from this link, as posted by bhelton71:
http://www.skyreport.com/archives/view/?publication_id=1&release_id=797

Do we fall into the "Higher Quality Customers" category for being tech savvy? I mean we do pay more, buy/lease the top of the line DVR's and tend to be more cutting edge. Or does HQC simply mean rich, blind lemmings willing to buy any/every package and equipment?
A rather subjective description at any rate, but if the strategy it to "offer the best television experience", I think that having DLB would qualify that statement to a great degree.

Frank


----------



## dennisj00

MRV with networked multiple DVRs basically gives you the choice to watch any program on any DVR at another DVR (or possibly networked Receiver). (I'm also making some assumptions of how it's gonna work.)

In our case, I record science, home improvement, and some old sitcoms on the bedroom HR20 and my wife records her cooking shows and some programs that I have only a casual interest.

On the main Living Room unit, we record shows and series that we enjoy watching together.

MRV gives us the chance to watch either at either location.

Multiply that by other TV /DVR combinations within the house and other people (kids, etc.) and you can see the possibilites WITHOUT having to move from TV to TV.

I specifically added a second HR20 hoping we'd have MRV by now. SOON ??!!

But we still want DLB!!


----------



## Rich

jimb726 said:


> I couldnt even fathom, other than the fact that you would be able to share the content from all 9 on any TV in your house. Sounds to me like you got a radioactive hot bed going there!!!:eek2:


Jim, you gotta understand what my life is like. I don't have to work. When the weather allows I spend my mornings hitting baseballs. Hit between 30,000 and 40,000 last year. This after I watch the previous day's Yankees game. After hitting balls, a shower and read the newspapers. After that, either the computer or TV for the rest of the day. I try to read for 2 or 3 hours a day, too. And I have to take care of my two dogs while doing all that. On top of all that, I have a teenage son at home.

The sat system is the closest thing to a hobby that I have. Fortunately my wife works long hours and I get to play all day long. Like I'm doing now.

Your comment about radioactivity is oddly pertinent. Only it is electro-magnetic fields that I have problems with. For instance, I'm in my hidey hole right now and my cell phone won't work correctly because of all the EM fields. My cordless phone for this room can only be used if it pointed in a particular direction. See what I mean?

This may all sound kind of nutty, but I think I live a good, mind stimulating, life.

Rich


----------



## jimb726

rich584 said:


> Jim, you gotta understand what my life is like. I don't have to work. When the weather allows I spend my mornings hitting baseballs. Hit between 30,000 and 40,000 last year. This after I watch the previous day's Yankees game. After hitting balls, a shower and read the newspapers. After that, either the computer or TV for the rest of the day. I try to read for 2 or 3 hours a day, too. And I have to take care of my two dogs while doing all that. On top of all that, I have a teenage son at home.
> 
> The sat system is the closest thing to a hobby that I have. Fortunately my wife works long hours and I get to play all day long. Like I'm doing now.
> 
> Your comment about radioactivity is oddly pertinent. Only it is electro-magnetic fields that I have problems with. For instance, I'm in my hidey hole right now and my cell phone won't work correctly because of all the EM fields. My cordless phone for this room can only be used if it pointed in a particular direction. See what I mean?
> 
> This may all sound kind of nutty, but I think I live a good, mind stimulating, life.
> 
> Rich


Rich please dont think I was criticizing. I cant keep track of three DVR's and I could not fathom 9 of them, plus as it is I generally only watch about 10 different shows, the rest are ones wy wife records and watches as do my children. I wish I could hit a baseball, however I will have to settle watching my 4 sons play, which to me is about as good as it gets!! Until football seaason starts, that is!!


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Nope, I think that you hit the nail on the head for the multiple HDTV user. I only have one really nice HDTV, so why on earth would I need MRV to stream content to any other screens? I thought that the definition of "Home Theater" was a room with an awesome system, ONE awesome system.


Great to have one really good "Home Theater" room, better to have more than one room. Can only use so many tuners in one room with one TV. And don't you have a screen and a projector in that room? Or was that someone else?

If you have the room I think we talked about in another thread, than I can understand wanting to use one room. I have greatroom that has a cathedral ceiling and I asked my wife about converting it to a "Home Theater" room. Got shot down. Can't argue with the boss.

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> No biggie...
> FWIW this has been my opinion on the patent issue. :grin:


Mike, I read that whole thing (nobody will ever accuse you of brevity) and I still don't know for sure if you agree with me and now I don't know what I believe. Oh, yeah, the patent thing.

I wouldn't bet any money that I am correct. Just seems like the simplest explanation.

I've been intrigued by the whole DLB issue even tho I have no interest in DLBs myself. I've gotten to the point where this has become an intellectual exercise. And that is something that I enjoy.

Did you read this link: http://www.skyreport.com/archives/vi...release_id=797 ?

That's the kind of article I'd like to see concerning DLBs.

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Mike, I read that whole thing (nobody will ever accuse you of brevity) and I still don't know for sure if you agree with me and now I don't know what I believe. Oh, yeah, the patent thing.
> 
> I wouldn't bet any money that I am correct. Just seems like the simplest explanation.
> 
> I've been intrigued by the whole DLB issue even tho I have no interest in DLBs myself. I've gotten to the point where this has become an intellectual exercise. And that is something that I enjoy.
> 
> Did you read this link: http://www.skyreport.com/archives/vi...release_id=797 ?
> 
> That's the kind of article I'd like to see concerning DLBs.
> 
> Rich


Ya think that was long you should have seen it before I pared it down...:lol:

In Brief: I do not believe that DirecTV's decision not to include DLB into the DVR+ line has anything to do with TiVo's patents.

My previous post is just the explaination why. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually, I think the term "minority" pretty well sums up the whole DLB issue quite nicely:
> - We probably *are* a bit more savvy than most subs.
> - We are a small number of people that want a missing/lacking feature.
> 
> Regardless, however, the percentages are probably fairly close for each category but in the end it really doesn't matter. Being a savvy DVR hipster or a boisterous little bunch of beggers, neither one will likely speed up or influence Directv's decision in this.
> 
> Although, this statement from the CEO of Directv gives me a little hope (but just a little)
> 
> "CEO Chase Carey saying the company's strategy "of offering the best television experience to higher quality customers continues to drive superior financial results."


That preceding statement was pretty typical of the hyperbole politicians use in speeches and CEOs get to where they are in pretty much the same way that politicians climb the ladder. Take a good look at the phrase "to higher quality customers". How many ways can that be interpreted? In your next paragraph you acknowledge this. How could he be allowed to say something like that? Every minority group could be included in this statement.



> Do we fall into the "Higher Quality Customers" category for being tech savvy?


We're probably more of an annoyance to them. Most of us now know more than most of the CSRs and their supervisors. That says nothing good or promising about their ability to train people that can actually help you by phone. As I said in another post, I've called and written many tech companies and web sites and been told that since my problem was only noticed by very few people who had the sense or knowledge of the technology to complain, nothing would be done. Unless more people complained. Minority. We are a minority.



> I mean we do pay more, buy/lease the top of the line DVR's


Stop right there! You got it. That's who he was talking about.



> Or does HQC simply mean rich, blind lemmings willing to buy any/every package and equipment?


Now you are rolling! You just described the target of D*'s business plan. That's exactly what every board of directors dreams of. "Rich, Blind Lemmings" purchasing our products.

Well, one good thing is that we probably fall into a minority of the rich, blind lemmings, just because our monthly bills are so high, but we're still an annoyance.

Rich


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> (I'm also making some assumptions of how it's gonna work.)


Assumptions? With D*? Huh.



> In our case, I record science, home improvement, and some old sitcoms on the bedroom HR20 and my wife records her cooking shows and some programs that I have only a casual interest.
> 
> On the main Living Room unit, we record shows and series that we enjoy watching together.
> 
> MRV gives us the chance to watch either at either location.


I understand that. I get the basic concept. What I want to know is how does it work, is it wireless? I can do multiple rooms now with wires and RF motes. I did it with SD TiVos years ago with wires and remote extenders. Became simpler to just put a DVR with every TV.

Can I do it with multiple DVRs? How many?

We're gonna have to attach something to something, no? What?

Is this going to add to a monthly bill that is already, to quote my wife, "almost out of control"?

Rich


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> Ya think that was long you should have seen it before I pared it down...:lol:
> 
> In Brief: I do not believe that DirecTV's decision not to include DLB into the DVR+ line has anything to do with TiVo's patents.
> 
> My previous post is just the explaination why. :grin:
> 
> Mike


I thought that was what you meant. Well, we find ourselves at different ends of the argument. Diametrically opposed. Huh. And I'm too lazy to try really hard to prove my point. I'd still like to see something in print from a reliable source

We still don't know exactly what TiVo sued Dish about, do we?

Rich


----------



## Jeremy W

dennisj00 said:


> I specifically added a second HR20 hoping we'd have MRV by now. SOON ??!!


The MRV house has been built, now they just need to put up some drywall and paint it. We're very close to getting it.


----------



## Flyrx7

Jeremy W said:


> The MRV house has been built, now they just need to put up some drywall and paint it. We're very close to getting it.


Great! One more hurdle out of the way so they can work on DLB.

So, in the grand scheme of MRV, are my HR20 and HR10-250 going to play nice together, or am I going to have to get another HR2_ device to utilize this feature?

Frank


----------



## Jeremy W

Flyrx7 said:


> So, in the grand scheme of MRV, are my HR20 and HR10-250 going to play nice together, or am I going to have to get another HR2_ device to utilize this feature?


The HR10-250 will not talk to the HR20. Tivo uses proprietary protocols for all of their stuff, the HR2x uses open protocols for everything.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Flyrx7 said:


> Great! One more hurdle out of the way so they can work on DLB.
> 
> So, in the grand scheme of MRV, are my HR20 and HR10-250 going to play nice together, or am I going to have to get another HR2_ device to utilize this feature?
> 
> Frank


When MRV is added to the HR20/21 it will only work with other HR20/21's. It will not work with your HR10-250.


----------



## Flyrx7

Michael D'Angelo;1633508 said:


> When MRV is added to the HR20/21 it will only work with other HR20/21's. It will not work with your HR10-250.


What then would be the best, most official MRV speculation thread for research purposes? If someone could be so kind to provide a link.
The only one I've found so far is "MRV ever coming to our DVR's?", but at only 4 pages I suspect that's not the official speculation thread.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## dennisj00

rich584 said:


> Assumptions? With D*? Huh.
> 
> I understand that. I get the basic concept. What I want to know is how does it work, is it wireless? I can do multiple rooms now with wires and RF motes. I did it with SD TiVos years ago with wires and remote extenders. Became simpler to just put a DVR with every TV.
> 
> Can I do it with multiple DVRs? How many?
> 
> We're gonna have to attach something to something, no? What?
> 
> Is this going to add to a monthly bill that is already, to quote my wife, "almost out of control"?
> 
> Rich


Rich,

It's not going to add to your monthly bill, you just need to network your HR2xs together. . . . just a few hundred $ of routers / switches / wiring.

Wired or wireless, it doesn't matter as long as they play nicely together. Let me know if you need any help.


----------



## puffnstuff

I thought this was the DLB thread ? Why keep talking about MRV isn't there a thread for it ? :backtotop


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Jeremy W said:


> The MRV house has been built, now they just need to put up some drywall and paint it. We're very close to getting it.


We'll have MRV, but will we have MRR, Multi Room Recording? So that if I select something to record on the living room DVR and theres a conflict, will it send out a signal to the DVR in the bedroom and record it on that one if one of the tuners is available?

Thanks


----------



## Jeremy W

theratpatrol said:


> We'll have MRV, but will we have MRR, Multi Room Recording? So that if I select something to record on the living room DVR and theres a conflict, will it send out a signal to the DVR in the bedroom and record it on that one if one of the tuners is available?


I suspect we'll see that in the future, when the "Whole-Home DVR" idea comes alive. For now, it's just simple MRV.


----------



## Dr. Booda

rich584 said:


> Great to have one really good "Home Theater" room, better to have more than one room. Can only use so many tuners in one room with one TV. And don't you have a screen and a projector in that room? Or was that someone else?
> 
> If you have the room I think we talked about in another thread, than I can understand wanting to use one room. I have greatroom that has a cathedral ceiling and I asked my wife about converting it to a "Home Theater" room. Got shot down. Can't argue with the boss.
> 
> Rich


Rich,

No I don't have a projector and screen, but I did spend lots on the flat panel and A/V system.

My general point is that if I spend all of this money to create a home theater and upgrade to the HR2x for HD content, why would I want to use MRV to send content to other rooms? What's the point? The kids are happy watching their SD content on my other SD set, and the wife and I enjoy the HD content exclusively together.

I would much rather have DLB for use in my good viewing room versus MRV, and I am assuming that I am not alone. The common man doesn't have 4 or 5 HDTV's all over the house; he has his one decent viewing room. For those who do have multiple HDTV's cool, but you're the exception within the 17 million subscribers.

IMO, the prioritization of MRV over DLB is just another example of DirecTV's misplaced development priorities. They are just putting out "me too" features to stay competitive in their minds without utilizing common sense.


----------



## Lord Vader

"Me too" features? Like that stupid "daily fortune" thing? Really. That's got to be one of the stupidest "features" the box has. Why bother with such useless gimmicky "features" like that and not pursue DLB?


----------



## Jeremy W

Lord Vader said:


> "Me too" features? Like that stupid "daily fortune" thing? Really. That's got to be one of the stupidest "features" the box has. Why bother with such useless gimmicky "features" like that and not pursue DLB?


Wow, you are dense. The Daily Fortune is simply used for debugging the real new feature, which is TCP ports on the box being accessible from the Internet. The Daily Fortune will not be around much longer.


----------



## Lord Vader

Jeremy W said:


> Wow, you are dense.


Don't start with me, son. In the battle of wits you are unarmed.

You still don't understand the importance of DLB. *PEOPLE WILL DIE WITHOUT IT!!!*


----------



## Flyrx7

Jeremy W said:


> Wow, you are dense.


You surely could have responded without the personal attack.
Let's keep this about the hardware and not the individuals, like them or not.

Frank


----------



## Rich

dennisj00 said:


> Rich,
> 
> It's not going to add to your monthly bill, you just need to network your HR2xs together. . . . just a few hundred $ of routers / switches / wiring.
> 
> Wired or wireless, it doesn't matter as long as they play nicely together. Let me know if you need any help.


Thanx for the offer. I'm really just curious and have no intention of using the feature, but your offer of assistance was appreciated. I have so many 20/21s and TiVos in so many places that I don't really need MRV. And I am about to purchase a couple more 21s.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Dr. Booda said:


> Rich,
> 
> No I don't have a projector and screen, but I did spend lots on the flat panel and A/V system.


Huh. Wonder who that was that I was talking to about the projectors.



> My general point is that if I spend all of this money to create a home theater and upgrade to the HR2x for HD content, why would I want to use MRV to send content to other rooms? What's the point? The kids are happy watching their SD content on my other SD set, and the wife and I enjoy the HD content exclusively together.


That is how I look at it too.



> The common man doesn't have 4 or 5 HDTV's all over the house; he has his one decent viewing room. For those who do have multiple HDTV's cool, but you're the exception within the 17 million subscribers.


A minority, but surely not an anomaly, altho I do sometimes wonder.



> IMO, the prioritization of MRV over DLB is just another example of DirecTV's misplaced development priorities. They are just putting out "me too" features to stay competitive in their minds without utilizing common sense.


I still think if they could enable DLBs, they would.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Flyrx7 said:


> You surely could have responded without the personal attack.
> Let's keep this about the hardware and not the individuals, like them or not.
> 
> Frank


They know each other, Frank. Just sit back and enjoy the battle.

Rich


----------



## Lord Vader

Flyrx7 said:


> You surely could have responded without the personal attack.
> Let's keep this about the hardware and not the individuals, like them or not.
> 
> Frank


Don't worry. I'm not offended by such comments. First, I must consider the source. Second, I'm a veteran NCAA baseball umpire. I'm used to lame and stupid attempts at insults. They don't bother me; rather, I'm usually amused by them.


----------



## kokishin

Jeremy,

No reason to roll out the heavy artillery (i.e., "dense") on this one - at least I could not discern you were being attacked. Your explanation was sufficient. Always keep in mind you are probably more knowledgeable than others so try to be a sensei (teacher). BTW, I'm not saying you should take c*r*a*p either.



Jeremy W said:


> Wow, you are dense. The Daily Fortune is simply used for debugging the real new feature, which is TCP ports on the box being accessible from the Internet. The Daily Fortune will not be around much longer.


----------



## GregLee

Dr. Booda said:


> My general point is that if I spend all of this money to create a home theater and upgrade to the HR2x for HD content, why would I want to use MRV to send content to other rooms? What's the point? The kids are happy watching their SD content on my other SD set, and the wife and I enjoy the HD content exclusively together.


"_The_ wife"? No wonder you don't see the point to MRV.


----------



## James Long

GregLee said:


> "_The_ wife"? No wonder you don't see the point to MRV.


You have more than one wife?


----------



## Jeremy W

James Long said:


> You have more than one wife?


It's a Hawaiian tradition.


----------



## Lord Vader

As well as a Texas compound one.


----------



## Rich

Lord Vader said:


> I'm a veteran NCAA baseball umpire.


I'm really tempted by this statement.

Rich


----------



## ATARI

!Devil_lol


Lord Vader said:


> As well as a Texas compound one.


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> I'm really tempted by this statement.
> 
> Rich


Why be tempted? There isn't anything you can say that would bother me anyway. I hear it often enough from stupid coaches.


----------



## Que

When is the next chat, so we can find out what is going on.....???


----------



## puffnstuff

Que said:


> When is the next chat, so we can find out what is going on.....???


I doubt we will ever hear from Directv in a chat again . Imo , they don't care about DLB and answered Better than just to string us along een further . Why can't they just give us a reason or even a hint ?


----------



## jimb726

puffnstuff said:


> I doubt we will ever hear from Directv in a chat again . Imo , they don't care about DLB and answered Better than just to string us along een further . Why can't they just give us a reason or even a hint ?


I bet after this firestorm they will think twice before making another vague promise.:hurah:


----------



## puffnstuff

Just wanted share something . I just ot of the phone with the Office of the President following up on a E-mail I sent about guide ad's in which I also mentioned DLB . He understood everything I was talking about even the better than feature ( he said it does exsist ) and that DLB is being worked on still but won't be the way that we are use to ( I asked if it would be as easy as 1 button push and really didn't get an answer ) . Then I said MRV and explained that I thought that's what it was , since when you press dash I see 1 reciever ID with MRV I would see more . He got a little quiet and said they want the HR platform to be unique and offer features that no other DVR offer's . So does that mean MRV is it or is it something real crazy that we can't think of ?


----------



## Jeremy W

Que said:


> When is the next chat, so we can find out what is going on.....???


If there ever is another chat, which I would seriously doubt considering the response to the first one, you can guarantee it'll be unannounced.


----------



## MX727

rich584 said:


> You probably ought to check out the lawsuit that TiVo just hit Dish with. If TiVo wins, Dish will have no DVRs, SD or HD.
> 
> You can check this out on today's Swanni newsletter. Or it might have been yesterday's newsletter, one of the two.
> 
> Rich


I'd been watching this issue too. I've got until 09/15 to decide what I'm going to do. Dish just released info that they are planning on putting up Memphis locals in HD towards the end of the week. That removes that small issue. Now it comes down to what's going to happen with the suit.

At the risk of being labeled a heretic, I just may cancel everything and get off the couch. :eek2:


----------



## GrumpyBear

Lawsuit is old news, depending on the appeal's process depends on how much money Dish will have to spend, in the money they have set aside for it already.


----------



## Que

Jeremy W said:


> If there ever is another chat, which I would seriously doubt considering the response to the first one, you can guarantee it'll be unannounced.


So why did they even say "something better is coming.." Just don't say anything. They just keep us hoping that it will finally catch up with other DVRs out there.


----------



## Jeremy W

Que said:


> So why did they even say "something better is coming.." Just don't say anything.


Maybe they didn't think that the fanatics would take it as negatively as they have. Who knows.


----------



## Que

Thing is how can you make "something better" then this:



> I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.
> 
> I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


Why not just add DLB, then when your ready for "something better" release it.


----------



## groove93

I'm new to the HR21 coming from a R10 Tivo box and I used the DLB as a normal feature for my TV watching. Altough it's a bit tedius I don't mind the work around for this particular box and now I can navigate and watch TV without having to Miss the Tivo interface as much. I can see there was a lot of time and effort to perfect the Tivo interface and I can see that there's potential with this Direct TV interface as well. The remote needs some work IMO but it's very similar to my Sony's remote in that the navigation buttons towards the middle are almost identical.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Ding! Ding! Ding! We Have A winner!



Que said:


> Thing is how can you make "something better" then this:
> 
> Why not just add DLB, then when your ready for "something better" release it.


----------



## malice95

I have one of the first TIVO Units and the dual tuner buffers is something I miss on the HR21. I dont see what DTV cant implement this unless there is a patent involved preventing them. 

Mike


----------



## ATARI

malice95 said:


> I have one of the first TIVO Units and the dual tuner buffers is something I miss on the HR21. I dont see what DTV cant implement this unless there is a patent involved preventing them.
> 
> Mike


Nope, it's not a patent issue.


----------



## Rich

malice95 said:


> I have one of the first TIVO Units and the dual tuner buffers is something I miss on the HR21. I dont see what DTV cant implement this unless there is a patent involved preventing them.
> 
> Mike


Oh look, there's that patent thing again.

Rich


----------



## Lord Vader

I propose that anyone claiming it's a patent issue because they're too lazy to READ the threads here on DLB be banned from this site.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Oh look, there's that patent thing again.
> 
> Rich


Plenty of posts analyzing the patent issue have determined it isn't a problem.

Why do you propose is it a patent issue?

I and others have posted why it's not. Got a good argument...bring it. 

Seriously though, there's plenty of good evidence that is isn't. What do you know?

Mike


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> Plenty of posts analyzing the patent issue have determined it isn't a problem.
> 
> Why do you propose is it a patent issue?
> 
> I and others have posted why it's not. Got a good argument...bring it.
> 
> Seriously though, there's plenty of good evidence that is isn't. What do you know?
> 
> Mike


Hi Mike,

I've expressed my opinion in previous posts on this thread, and if I recall correctly, we have argued the point before. I still haven't seen anything to make me change my mind. Still seems like the simplest answer. Occam's Razor, KISS, etc. And the most logical.

I didn't see many posts about the "skip" and I really missed that after using TiVos for so many years. Apparently, enough people expressed their desire to have the "skip". Not nearly as quick as TiVo's "skip" and I now prefer the "slip". Gotta be careful what you wish for.

I never saw a thread calling for the "skip", just various posts. If D* just gave us the "skip" why wouldn't they give the people that so passionately desire the DLBs the function? That makes no sense.

What else makes sense? Does the 20/21 have the capability of DLBs?

What else makes sense? Patent infringements and the accompanying lawsuits.

What else makes sense? If they could, they would give you your DLBs.

Football season is looming in the near future and if I understand the way DLBs are used with football, the hue and cry for DLBs will just increase. And to put it simply, why wouldn't D* oil the squeaky wheel?

That's how corporations work. The higher you are on the corporate ladder, the more the squeaky wheel annoys you and you don't want your boss to get annoyed because you didn't deal with the wheel before he got wind of it. So again, I gotta ask:

If the could enable DLBs, why wouldn't they?

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I've expressed my opinion in previous posts on this thread, and if I recall correctly, we have argued the point before. I still haven't seen anything to make me change my mind. Still seems like the simplest answer. Occam's Razor, KISS, etc. And the most logical.
> 
> I didn't see many posts about the "skip" and I really missed that after using TiVos for so many years. Apparently, enough people expressed their desire to have the "skip". Not nearly as quick as TiVo's "skip" and I now prefer the "slip". Gotta be careful what you wish for.
> 
> I never saw a thread calling for the "skip", just various posts. If D* just gave us the "skip" why wouldn't they give the people that so passionately desire the DLBs the function? That makes no sense.
> 
> What else makes sense? Does the 20/21 have the capability of DLBs?


Yes it can. AAMOF, in the beginning of the first DLB thread, Directv acknowledged (through Earl) they were involved with attempting to implement it. It was later that Directv decided not to implement the feature.



rich584 said:


> What else makes sense? Patent infringements and the accompanying lawsuits.


A reason this doesn't make sense is that nearly every major HD DVR on the market has DLB.

Here are some examples:

Charter Communications supplies a Motorola(Moxie BMC-90xx) and a Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) both with DLB.
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner all use Motorolas(DCT-6412 & Moxie) and the Scientific Atlantic(Explorer 8000HD) again both with DLB.(I think these service providers are related but haven't bothered to find out)
MetroCast supplies the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
CableVision/Optimum uses the Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) with DLB.
CableOne uses the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
FiOS now uses the Motorola QIP6416 with DLB.
Another reason it doesn't make sense is the agreement between Directv and Tivo.

Directv and TiVo's lawyers have fully considered the impact of letting DirecTV use Tivo patented features. You can bet the farm they've ensured that Directv isn't going to downgrade their DVR's in 2010 by removing features.

BTW, the TiVo lawsuit against E* was a violation of the patent for "multimedia time warping system" not Dual Live Buffers.



rich584 said:


> What else makes sense? If they could, they would give you your DLBs.
> 
> Football season is looming in the near future and if I understand the way DLBs are used with football, the hue and cry for DLBs will just increase. And to put it simply, why wouldn't D* oil the squeaky wheel?
> 
> That's how corporations work. The higher you are on the corporate ladder, the more the squeaky wheel annoys you and you don't want your boss to get annoyed because you didn't deal with the wheel before he got wind of it. So again, I gotta ask:
> 
> If the could enable DLBs, why wouldn't they?
> 
> Rich


They wouldn't if they are too far into the current feature set. Can they afford to devote resources to DLB when they are trying to get media share/MRV up and running?

Putting it in now would impact too many other aspects of the code that it's no longer cost effect to devote the resources to it.

Not to mention that DLB would likely impact these features and is probably not an option at this point.

The following is my previous post with plenty of links with Earl stating that it isn't a patent issue.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1632254&postcount=1903

IMHO, patent infringement simply doesn't fit what we currently know on the subject. AAMOF, it is too simple and answer with much to contradict it.

That plus the fact there is _something else_ coming. What ever the something else is, it's is implied that is is better and therefore will oil the squeeky wheel.

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

Besides all the arguements and proof that it has nothing to do with a patent issue. Just think how easy it would be for D* to say oh sorry, we can't do DLB because of Patent rights, and bam the issue would be dropped. 
Granted some people even ignore the fact that DLB is a feature on 12 different DVR systems WITH NO LAWSUITS, don't you think if DLB was a Patent issue, TIVO would be all over the other makers of DVR with DLB?
D* hasn't said its a Patent issue, and has promised us something Better(lets all laugh now), as a teaser instead of saying that they are working on Patent issues. Plain and simple, D* missed the boat on this issue in programming and, moved on to different feature sets instead.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> Besides all the arguements and proof that it has nothing to do with a patent issue. *Just think how easy it would be for D* to say oh sorry, we can't do DLB because of Patent rights, and bam the issue would be dropped.*
> Granted some people even ignore the fact that DLB is a feature on 12 different DVR systems WITH NO LAWSUITS, don't you think if DLB was a Patent issue, TIVO would be all over the other makers of DVR with DLB?
> D* hasn't said its a Patent issue, and has promised us something Better(lets all laugh now), as a teaser instead of saying that they are working on Patent issues. Plain and simple, D* missed the boat on this issue in programming and, moved on to different feature sets instead.


That's a really good point. 

I'm annoyed that because it didn't occur to me. 

Mike


----------



## Jeremy W

rich584 said:


> Still seems like the simplest answer. Occam's Razor, KISS, etc. And the most logical.


I don't see how it could possibly be the simplest and most logical answer when you have been told repeatedly that it's *not* the answer.


----------



## puffnstuff

Thank you Directv , because of no DLB I'm going to save over $250.00 this year and even more next year !!!


----------



## BlueCan

rich584 said:


> So, how would it work with 9 DVRs? I've never networked any of my DVRs, mainly because I have so many. Too much work.
> 
> Rich


Here and I think remembering what's being recorded on 9 different DVR's and going to the right room in the house to find the show you wanted to watch sounds like too much work. 

If my content is networked and I've got a decent index, I can watch anything from where I'm sitting at any given time rather than having to have 4 TV's and 9 DVR's (some of which I'd IMAGINE have duplicate recordings) I have 3 TV's and 2 DVR's.

-Patrick


----------



## heisman

puffnstuff said:


> Thank you Directv , because of no DLB I'm going to save over $250.00 this year and even more next year !!!


I'm about to join you in the savings.


----------



## luckydob

I've figured out what D* means by saying better than DLB! It's been around for a while. It's...wait for it.....banner ads!!! It's better for D* because it's extra revenue!

Genius.

Seriously...how long do we have to "wait for it"? "It" being "better than DLB".


----------



## ATARI

heisman said:


> I'm about to join you in the savings.


I started my savings last fall when I canceled NFLST, so I'll be up to $500 by the end of this season.

Unless, by some miracle, we get DLB by Sept. In which case I'll gladly fork over the money.


----------



## OwnersEdge

D* is not gonna get my HD $ until their HDVR is [nearly] as good as my old Sony UltimateTV. Such as PIP and AutoTune ["Remind"]. And my OTA Locals including 4 PBS + 10 Digital Subchannels ~~ which I'd sure like to see in the EPG guide and record on somebody's good DVR.

From all the moaning I see here it sounds as if that's never gonna happen in my generation.


----------



## Rich

Jeremy W said:


> I don't see how it could possibly be the simplest and most logical answer when you have been told repeatedly that it's *not* the answer.


You're right, Jeremy. I have been told, but I have never seen any proof that assures me that it isn't a patent infringement issue.

I spoke to a Case Management guy a couple of weeks ago and asked him about the DLBs and he said, without a pause, "patent infringement issues". Was he blatantly lying to me? I don't know, but he was pretty straight with me about everything else.

Rich


----------



## Sirshagg

> Anyone that wants to be a part of FireFox 3.0 entering the Guiness Book of Records as the most downloaded program in history, in a 24 hour span, can follow this link:
> 
> http://www.spreadfirefox.com/en-US/worldrecord/
> 
> This is a good thing. Be a part of history. Today and early tomorrow.
> 
> Rich


WOW! 2M downloads in the US and nobody else is even close.


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> Yes it can. AAMOF, in the beginning of the first DLB thread, Directv acknowledged (through Earl) they were involved with attempting to implement it. It was later that Directv decided not to implement the feature.


Why did they decide not to implement the feature?



> A reason this doesn't make sense is that nearly every major HD DVR on the market has DLB.
> 
> Here are some examples:
> 
> Charter Communications supplies a Motorola(Moxie BMC-90xx) and a Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) both with DLB.
> Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner all use Motorolas(DCT-6412 & Moxie) and the Scientific Atlantic(Explorer 8000HD) again both with DLB.(I think these service providers are related but haven't bothered to find out)
> MetroCast supplies the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
> CableVision/Optimum uses the Scientific Atlanta(Explorer 8000HD) with DLB.
> CableOne uses the Motorola(DCT-6412) with DLB.
> FiOS now uses the Motorola QIP6416 with DLB.


Suppose TiVo wins the suit against Dish and decides to go after the above listed entities. Or do the above listed entities have agreements in place that allows them to use TiVos features?



> Another reason it doesn't make sense is the agreement between Directv and Tivo.


What agreement? Seems like D* has agreed to support the existing TiVos with a signal that TiVos can decode. What else have they agreed to?



> Directv and TiVo's lawyers have fully considered the impact of letting DirecTV use Tivo patented features. You can bet the farm they've ensured that Directv isn't going to downgrade their DVR's in 2010 by removing features.


Mike, I truly do not understand the above paragraph. Could you clarify it?



> BTW, the TiVo lawsuit against E* was a violation of the patent for "multimedia time warping system" not Dual Live Buffers.


TiVo probably had a whole menu of issues they could have sued over.



> They wouldn't if they are too far into the current feature set. Can they afford to devote resources to DLB when they are trying to get media share/MRV up and running?


I certainly can't answer that question.



> Putting it in now would impact too many other aspects of the code that it's no longer cost effect to devote the resources to it.
> 
> Not to mention that DLB would likely impact these features and is probably not an option at this point.


And yet, so many posters have stated that DLBs would cause no harm to the DVRs. Seems like so many people have so many opinions about this issue and I prefer to be very pessimistic about this.



> IMHO, patent infringement simply doesn't fit what we currently know on the subject. AAMOF, it is too simple and answer with much to contradict it.


Your right to your opinion is sacrosanct as far as I'm concerned. I don't expect to change your opinion, but I do hope to learn from the discussion.



> That plus the fact there is _something else_ coming. What ever the something else is, it's is implied that is is better and therefore will oil the squeeky wheel.


What about my squeaky wheel? I have no interest in networking my 20/21s. I have no interest in MRV. I will be happy for all the people who really want the DLB feature if they enable it, but I have no interest (other than this thread, and it is titled "What are your thoughts...") in DLBs. All I want is a 20/21 just like the ones I have today.

There are some things I'd like to see, such as eSATA usage extended to every 20/21 in an account. To me that would be huge. And can only be given to us by D*. There are work arounds for the DLB issue, but none for the eSATA issue. I'd also like to be able to take a 20/21 on vacation.

I'd like to be able to "archive" shows using eSATAs. You absolutely should not do that now, because if the 20/21 you recorded the shows on fails, you lose all your recordings on the eSATA. I'd like to see a poll that asks if you use an eSATA or don't use one. Two simple questions. We'll have to include the "added" larger HD used internally in the poll.

As an aside: Were you on Subs?

Rich


----------



## Rich

BlueCan said:


> Here and I think remembering what's being recorded on 9 different DVR's and going to the right room in the house to find the show you wanted to watch sounds like too much work.


Nobody ever asked me that before. Huh. Let me try to explain this. You're right, I do back up shows on at least two 20s or to put it another way: Each show that we want to watch together is recorded on one of four 20s with Seagate FAP 750s. Then I spread the list of shows thru the four 20s and duplicate each show at least once. Some shows we watch right away and some, like 24, we watch over a weekend.

How do I know where they are? I remember. Sometimes I'm wrong, but most of the time I'm right. And we pick the room we want to be in based on whether my wife has to be online with work related things. And once we get in one room, we tend to stay in that room for quite a while.



> If my content is networked and I've got a decent index, I can watch anything from where I'm sitting at any given time rather than having to have 4 TV's and 9 DVR's (some of which I'd IMAGINE have duplicate recordings) I have 3 TV's and 2 DVR's.


I'm down to eight DVRs, and I've got eight TVs in the house. Got to get the Salvation Army out and get rid of three of them. Waiting for the new Panny 1080p plasmas to come down in price.

Rich


----------



## Rich

Sirshagg said:


> WOW! 2M downloads in the US and nobody else is even close.


Pretty neat how they do that map, huh?

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Why did they decide not to implement the feature?
> Suppose TiVo wins the suit against Dish and decides to go after the above listed entities. Or do the above listed entities have agreements in place that allows them to use TiVos features?
> 
> What agreement? Seems like D* has agreed to support the existing TiVos with a signal that TiVos can decode. What else have they agreed to?


It is true that Directv agreed to continue support the DirecTivo's but as you can see in this link it is much more.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060412-6583.html

from the above link:


> ...the agreement which states that neither company will assert its patent rights against the other for its duration. That allows DirecTV to avoid a potentially costly and lengthy court battle, the likes of which its competitor Dish Network has found itself embroiled in.


This agreement goes in both directions. Tivo can use Directv features and vice versa.


rich584 said:


> Mike, I truly do not understand the above paragraph. Could you clarify it?


I was trying to say that there is a specific clause that gives both Tivo & Directv the right to to use each others patented features during the agreement period (ending in 2010) without consequences.

You can bet your life savings that the lawyers have ensured that any features patented by either Tivo or DirecTV will not have to be removed from their respective boxes when the agreement is over.

IOW, Directv will not have to downgrade any of their DVR's in 2010. Nor would Tivo. :grin:

I believe this by itself should put the patent infringement argument to rest......maybe 



rich584 said:


> TiVo probably had a whole menu of issues they could have sued over.
> 
> I certainly can't answer that question.
> 
> And yet, so many posters have stated that DLBs would cause no harm to the DVRs. Seems like so many people have so many opinions about this issue and I prefer to be very pessimistic about this.
> 
> Your right to your opinion is sacrosanct as far as I'm concerned. I don't expect to change your opinion, but I do hope to learn from the discussion.
> 
> What about my squeaky wheel? I have no interest in networking my 20/21s. I have no interest in MRV. I will be happy for all the people who really want the DLB feature if they enable it, but I have no interest (other than this thread, and it is titled "What are your thoughts...") in DLBs. All I want is a 20/21 just like the ones I have today.
> 
> There are some things I'd like to see, such as eSATA usage extended to every 20/21 in an account. To me that would be huge. And can only be given to us by D*. There are work arounds for the DLB issue, but none for the eSATA issue. I'd also like to be able to take a 20/21 on vacation.
> 
> I'd like to be able to "archive" shows using eSATAs. You absolutely should not do that now, because if the 20/21 you recorded the shows on fails, you lose all your recordings on the eSATA. I'd like to see a poll that asks if you use an eSATA or don't use one. Two simple questions. We'll have to include the "added" larger HD used internally in the poll.
> 
> As an aside: Were you on Subs?
> 
> Rich


As far as the squeaky wheel...the "something else" better than DLB is supposed to be the oil.

Taken in context of the chat, "something else" implies that it's related to DLB in some way.

Don't know what it is...don't know if it will satisfy DLBer's...

I was on the USS Andrew Jackson SSBN619 Gold crew, June '83 to Sep '87.

edit: As yet nobody has found a TiVo patent for Dual Live Buffers.

Mike


----------



## celticpride

keep it simple add the tivo software to the directv hd dvrs then that way we'll get dlb and no more black screens and missed recordings!


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> You're right, Jeremy. I have been told, but I have never seen any proof that assures me that it isn't a patent infringement issue.
> 
> I spoke to a Case Management guy a couple of weeks ago and asked him about the DLBs and he said, without a pause, "patent infringement issues". Was he blatantly lying to me? I don't know, but he was pretty straight with me about everything else.
> 
> Rich


Yep , because when I talked to case management last week , I was told it wasn't a patent issue . He also said he was aware of us and that the something better does exsist and is being worked on , also that DLB will be implemented just not the way we are use to ( whatever that means ) . Which leds me to think that DLB is tied to another feature yet to come .


----------



## Flyrx7

puffnstuff said:


> Which leds me to think that DLB is tied to another feature yet to come .


MRV :shrug:

In a perfect world, or if I were on Santa's lap, I would ask for:

DLB: on a single receiver
or
QLB: on two receivers w/ MRV 
All done w/ PIP of course

If done with MRV, they could use the current Yellow Button que to bring up recent channels, all of which could be buffering on multiple receivers.

THAT would be better than DLB, IMHO.

Regards,
Frank

PS, we need an acronym list


----------



## Nicholsen

I second that request for QLB before the NFL season starts.

It would also be great if the Slo-Mo was fixed by then.


----------



## BlueCan

rich584 said:


> Nobody ever asked me that before. Huh. Let me try to explain this. You're right, I do back up shows on at least two 20s or to put it another way: Each show that we want to watch together is recorded on one of four 20s with Seagate FAP 750s. Then I spread the list of shows thru the four 20s and duplicate each show at least once. Some shows we watch right away and some, like 24, we watch over a weekend.


My "end state" goal is a central multi-TB "Media Server" that has content--both Audio and Video--stored centrally and served to relatively inexpensive networked remote devices. Picture Slingbox with built-in DirecTV tuners and true DVR capabilities...

An interim between now and then is MRV--where my DTV set-top boxes can share media over a network. FWIW, I wanted MRV with my Tivo units as well and was disappointed with DTV for not carrying THAT into the future (before the HR units existed).



rich584 said:


> I'm down to eight DVRs, and I've got eight TVs in the house. Got to get the Salvation Army out and get rid of three of them. Waiting for the new Panny 1080p plasmas to come down in price.


LOL! You're coming at it exactly backwards from most of us, and from most people who would have found DLB useful. I have 3 TV's--2 of which are on DTV. 4 tuners. (not 8TV's 16 tuners). I bet you watch virtually NO live TV. Since you used to do this with VCR's (past posts), I assume you've got a well-worn use path that works well for you--and that's GREAT.

It just doesn't match mine--and it's the flexibility to serve my intended usage patterns that makes me "want" DLB and MRV.

Back to DLB, and why I'd like to see it "back".

DLB was, for me, the perfect "browse DTV content" solution. I would flip through channels until I found something that interested me. I'd watch it for a while if it was interesting. When a commercial came up, I'd pause it and look for something that's NOT on a commercial to watch. Watch that until a commercial. Pause it, flip back to the other show and watch 'til commercial. Wash, rinse, repeat. "Pause, LiveTV, 30skip to content"

Is it a true "DVR" solution? Probably not. However, it's one of the ways I've found a lot of shows I like--right behind Tivo suggestions which I *guarantee* is Patented by Tivo. Can I "record the one I was watching" and browse the other tuner? Yes. However, that forces me into a "usage pattern"--where the DLB implementation on the HDVR didn't.

Personally, I miss both DLB (as implemented on Tivo) and Suggestions. I find that both of the workarounds ('Pseudo-DLB record, pause and switch' AND 'TV scheduler is better than Suggestions') are vastly inferior to the implementation on the HR10.

But, for me, content is king. ...and the new HD content is that desirable. So, I switched.

-Patrick "Oh... I watch no more commercials now than I did then, I just browse less content than I used to--so I find fewer shows that I like..."


----------



## tthunder38

OwnersEdge said:


> D* is not gonna get my HD $ until their HDVR is [nearly] as good as my old Sony UltimateTV. Such as PIP and AutoTune ["Remind"]. And my OTA Locals including 4 PBS + 10 Digital Subchannels ~~ which I'd sure like to see in the EPG guide and record on somebody's good DVR.
> 
> From all the moaning I see here it sounds as if that's never gonna happen in my generation.


Same situation here


----------



## Rich

MicroBeta said:


> It is true that Directv agreed to continue support the DirecTivo's but as you can see in this link it is much more.
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060412-6583.html
> 
> from the above link:
> 
> This agreement goes in both directions. Tivo can use Directv features and vice versa.
> 
> I was trying to say that there is a specific clause that gives both Tivo & Directv the right to to use each others patented features during the agreement period (ending in 2010) without consequences.
> 
> You can bet your life savings that the lawyers have ensured that any features patented by either Tivo or DirecTV will not have to be removed from their respective boxes when the agreement is over.
> 
> IOW, Directv will not have to downgrade any of their DVR's in 2010. Nor would Tivo. :grin:
> 
> I believe this by itself should put the patent infringement argument to rest......maybe


Maybe, maybe not. Suppose you are wrong about the details of the "deal" and D* enables DLBs today and has to take them away in 2010? Seems like you read more into that link than I did. And that deal was done by lawyers, right. Trust them much?

One thing I did note was that TiVo signed an agreement with Comcast. That explains Comcast's DVR having DLBs. And probably the rest of the other DVRs on that list.



> As far as the squeaky wheel...the "something else" better than DLB is supposed to be the oil.
> 
> Taken in context of the chat, "something else" implies that it's related to DLB in some way.
> 
> Don't know what it is...don't know if it will satisfy DLBer's...


So what about the rest of us who don't much care about DLBs? What do we get?



> I was on the USS Andrew Jackson SSBN619 Gold crew, June '83 to Sep '87


Play in the D&S Softball League, did you? Best baseball (yeah, the only thing different from hardball was the size of the field and the size of the ball and the way the pitcher delivered it. The rest of the rules were the same. I'm sure that's changed by now.) I ever played.



> As yet nobody has found a TiVo patent for Dual Live Buffers.


More lack of proof.

Rich


----------



## Rich

puffnstuff said:


> Yep , because when I talked to case management last week , I was told it wasn't a patent issue . He also said he was aware of us and that the something better does exsist and is being worked on , also that DLB will be implemented just not the way we are use to ( whatever that means ) . Which leds me to think that DLB is tied to another feature yet to come .


Huh. So you can't trust the Case Management people either. Two different people (I hope!), two different stories. I wonder how high up the ladder you have to go to get a truthful answer? Doesn't the guy you were talking to sound like he's parroting the corporate officer that made virtually the same statement a little while ago?

I asked the guy I talked to why Ultimate TV DVRs were still allowed to use the DLB function. I can only paraphrase his reply. It was something about Ultimate TV having an agreement with either TiVo or D* about retaining the function while the service was still supported by D* at the most minimal level. The same level that TiVo is supported by D* now.

I had really hoped that someone would post that they had spoken to a Case Management person who agreed with my guy. Damn.

Rich


----------



## Rich

BlueCan said:


> My "end state" goal is a central multi-TB "Media Server" that has content--both Audio and Video--stored centrally and served to relatively inexpensive networked remote devices. Picture Slingbox with built-in DirecTV tuners and true DVR capabilities...
> 
> An interim between now and then is MRV--where my DTV set-top boxes can share media over a network. FWIW, I wanted MRV with my Tivo units as well and was disappointed with DTV for not carrying THAT into the future (before the HR units existed).


Too much work.



> I bet you watch virtually NO live TV.


You'd win!



> Since you used to do this with VCR's (past posts), I assume you've got a well-worn use path that works well for you--and that's GREAT.


You wouldn't believe how difficult it was keeping the VCR recordings listed correctly. I used a big logbook to keep track of my recordings. Consumed a couple hours a day at times. And had to log everything immediately or I got screwed up. I don't miss them at all.

But the DVRs are so easy to keep track of that we rarely have problems finding what we want.



> But, for me, content is king. ...and the new HD content is that desirable.


And that is really all that matters.

Rich


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rich584 said:


> Maybe, maybe not. Suppose you are wrong about the details of the "deal" and D* enables DLBs today and has to take them away in 2010? Seems like you read more into that link than I did. And that deal was done by lawyers, right. Trust them much?
> 
> <sinp>
> Rich


If you google this agreement you will find many articles. I just provided you with the first one I came across. :grin:

Auto correction. TiVo has patents on that.

Streaming data to a HDD with buffers. Tivo has patents on that.

Providing content on demand. Tivo has patents on that.

GUI for accessing guide and recordings. Tivo has patents on that.

Downloading and maintaining guide data. Tivo has patents on that

etc.... http://www.google.com/patents?q=tivo&btnG=Search+Patents

Will Directv have to remove these items from their DVRs in 2010? If the did, there wouldn't be a DVR left.

Can you honestly believe that neither company has protections after the agreement is over? Protections for equipement that's at the very basis of their continued operation.

There is no way on God's green earth that DirecTV will have to down grade the features on their DVRs in 2010.

I have no doubt in my mind that the feature set that exists in 2009 will still exist in 2010. It only makes sense to me.

Although, I would also believe that for each feature that's a TiVo patent, DirecTV might have to pay a licensing fee to use.

However, if you look at all the patents in the link (pages and pages of them), their patents cover every aspect of operating a DVR...

But, If you read them, they are about the methodology to accomplish a task.

Heck, watching one thing and recording another has been around for as long as the VCR. 

I used to have two VCRs and a TV so technically I could record two things and watch a third. I can't do that with the HR2x. 

Tivo just consolidated it all into one appliance. How a task accomplished is where the patents come in and not the task itself.

Mike


----------



## ATARI

Congrats on the 2000th post!


----------



## puffnstuff

rich584 said:


> Huh. So you can't trust the Case Management people either. Two different people (I hope!), two different stories. I wonder how high up the ladder you have to go to get a truthful answer? Doesn't the guy you were talking to sound like he's parroting the corporate officer that made virtually the same statement a little while ago?
> 
> I asked the guy I talked to why Ultimate TV DVRs were still allowed to use the DLB function. I can only paraphrase his reply. It was something about Ultimate TV having an agreement with either TiVo or D* about retaining the function while the service was still supported by D* at the most minimal level. The same level that TiVo is supported by D* now.
> 
> I had really hoped that someone would post that they had spoken to a Case Management person who agreed with my guy. Damn.
> 
> Rich


Actually the guy I talked to sounded like he knew alot more than we do , but he was very sly about it . When I said MRV after the something better comment is when he commented about it being implemented in a way were not use to . Also as I said not only did he know of DBSTalk he knew of this thread ( and the old one ) specifally , also said that every CSR should have to read these forums to be prepared and maybe he wouldn't be as busy . How high up do we have to go ? Who knows , I guess we got as close as we will ever get in the chat .


----------



## BlueCan

rich584 said:


> Too much work.


LOL! Your house is wired all over with RG56. I bet that running those lines was a WHOLE lot of fun.

My house? I've got GB Ethernet running from a networking closet (Phone, TV, Network) to a switch at the entertainment center, couple runs downstairs to "Offices", and 802.11N wireless as well to support the laptops that seem to roam around the place. The GBE runs were dropped in when we were doing some remodeling. 

The "living room" HR is on a GBE switch (with the receiver and XBox).
The bedroom HR is hanging off of a wireless bridge...

I serve Audio from one of the Office machines (configured with TVersity) to the whole house. If only the DTV recievers shared video content, we'd be set. Slap a couple SATA drives on the HR's, and I'm good to go with "All of my Audio and Video at each TV" with a minimum of fuss.

The networking is already in. Configuring the HR's took relatively little time maybe a half hour total when I needed to configure the wireless bridge...

The point isn't the setup, it's that everyone's needs are different. I'd be willing to bet that if you HAD MRV, you'd figure out how to use it to reduce having to move place to place to watch pretty quickly. Just like you were able to get rid of the logbooks. That must have been a NIGHTMARE.

-Patrick


----------



## rawilson

puffnstuff said:


> Thank you Directv , because of no DLB I'm going to save over $250.00 this year and even more next year !!!


I'd be there too if only I weren't locked in to a 2-year commitment for the downgrade :-(


----------



## jimb726

rawilson said:


> I'd be there too if only I weren't locked in to a 2-year commitment for the downgrade :-(


Nobody is forcing you to subscribe to the Sunday Ticket. Cancel it and save the 250 dollars.


----------



## Nicholsen

*We want out DLB!*

Money for nothing and chicks for free would also nice, but I would be happy for now with DLB when the NFL kicks off.

Is there any hope?


----------



## GrumpyBear

They Add DLB before or as the season starts, I will be moving on over.
EuroCup2008 has done nothing more than re-enforce the fact, that sports needs DLB, and just no way to I can move over without it. Let alone move over and spend $250, for a season of football, without DLB, just not going to happen.


----------



## MX727

So, is DLB a victim of Movies Now?

Is Movies Now the so called "something better than DLB?"


----------



## Mike Bertelson

MX727 said:


> So, is DLB a victim of Movies Now?
> 
> Is Movies Now the so called "something better than DLB?"


I wouldn't think so.

I would think "something better" would some how relate to DLB.

I don't think this quite makes it.

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

What the heck is "Movies Now?" 


I've really got to get back this board once in a while.


----------



## MX727

MicroBeta said:


> I wouldn't think so.
> 
> I would think "something better" would some how relate to DLB.
> 
> I don't think this quite makes it.
> 
> Mike


I hope you're correct.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

MX727 said:


> I hope you're correct.


It's just a guess on my part but it makes sense to me.:grin:

Mike


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

MicroBeta said:


> It's just a guess on my part but it makes sense to me.:grin:
> 
> Mike


It seems to make sense to me as well. DLB is directly related to how well/easily you can watch two shows, both airing live, simultaneously.

The response from DirecTV has been that something "better than DLB" is on the horizon.

To me that says a better mousetrap when it comes to watching two live shows simultaneously. What that "better mousetrap" is, I have no idea. I subscribe to the KISS method (keep it simple stupid). And it doesn't get much simpler than the existing Tivo method of DLB. Not many things jump out at me as "Wow, that would be SO much better than DLB".

Movies now certainly is NOT one of them!


----------



## lman

Sharkie_Fan said:


> It seems to make sense to me as well. DLB is directly related to how well/easily you can watch two shows, both airing live, simultaneously.
> 
> The response from DirecTV has been that something "better than DLB" is on the horizon.
> 
> To me that says a better mousetrap when it comes to watching two live shows simultaneously. What that "better mousetrap" is, I have no idea. I subscribe to the KISS method (keep it simple stupid). And it doesn't get much simpler than the existing Tivo method of DLB. Not many things jump out at me as "Wow, that would be SO much better than DLB".
> 
> Movies now certainly is NOT one of them!


It's better for DirecTV, since there is more potential to make money from Movies Now than DLB. They will lose my money however when my commitment expires, unless I see DLB before that.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

lman said:


> It's better for DirecTV, since there is more potential to make money from Movies Now than DLB. They will lose my money however when my commitment expires, unless I see DLB before that.


Call me naive, but I didn't get the impression that DirecTV is just feeding us a bunch of PR crap. I get the impression that they are working on a feature which _someone at direcTV *honestly* believes_ will be "better than DLB" and will appease the DLB crowd. The mods here (whom I trust) have said basically the same thing at various times.

I don't think this is one of those "Gotcha" moments. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that they really are working on what they think is going to be the "_next great thing_".

Do I believe that it *IS*, actually, the next great thing? I don't know, because I have trouble envisioning what the next great thing is, which could be implemented on the current hardware platform. (Meaning Quad live buffers would be better, but with only 2 tuners, that'd be pretty magical to pull that off.)


----------



## Drew2k

What if the "something better" than DLB will be a feature that combines DLB with MRV? Meaning the foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR, but the background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR, with pause and resume control, where you can pause a buffer somewhere else, and pick it up on the something-better-than-DLB magic buffer??


----------



## GrumpyBear

Not everybody is going to network there DVR's. Some others think DLB is to complicated, and networking DVR's to create this would be even more complicated than a simple button on the remote. Like the idea, Networking your DVR's will be the issue to over come.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Drew2k said:


> What if the "something better" than DLB will be a feature that combines DLB with MRV? Meaning the foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR, but the background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR, with pause and resume control, where you can pause a buffer somewhere else, and pick it up on the something-better-than-DLB magic buffer??


Yes. That would be, for me, "better than DLB" (though I'm not hard to please, DLB isn't a do or die feature for me, personally".

As grumpybear pointed out, though, bringing the network into the DLB equation would, to me, seem to bring alot of headaches that DirecTV probably doesn't want, and alot of customers aren't going to want.

The only way I could see that being the "better than DLB" is if DirecTV is convinced that only the "most advanced" customers really want DLB. If that is their belief, then a buffer system over the network is probably OK because most of us have our DVRs networked anyway.

IF they believe DLB is a feature for the "common man", then I have trouble seeing your scenario be "IT", just because DirecTV has no control over the network. But if "better than DLB" doesn't work, the customer is going to call DirecTV looking for support. So unless they're starting their own IT helpline, they're going to end up with some unhappy customers.

I think that alot of "what can be better than DLB" depends on who you think is going to use DLB. If you contend, like many around here do/have, that 'most' people don't know about DLB, then there are alot of possibilities as to what could be better than DLB, because you're banking on the "DLB Crowd" being of a certain technological cailbre. If on the other hand, you contend that 'everybody' knows about DLB, even if they don't know what to call it, then that severely narrows the possibilities because you are going to have, in that crowd, Old Mother Hubbard, who doesn't even know how to turn on a computer, but who wants to watch Oprah and Ellen at the same time and skip the commercials....


----------



## ub1934

GrumpyBear said:


> Not everybody is going to network there DVR's. Some others think DLB is to complicated, and networking DVR's to create this would be even more complicated than a simple button on the remote. Like the idea, Networking your DVR's will be the issue to over come.


_ Just let them give us DLBs and stop all the other stuff , i did try networking with direct hook up ( it worked ) but it would mess up my IP address on the computer every time i used it so i gave up on that for now . All i want is a DVR/PVR with DLBs that work all the time on record & playback like my HR 10-250  ._


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Per the thread heading.....

My thoughts are despite over 2000 posts now....

Countless clarifications that DLB *will not *be happening (but "something better" is under development, per a DirecTV senior rep who disclosed this months ago - and it was clearly reported on several occasions in pther posts) --- some folks are still in denial on this topic. It's not happening, period. You can argue and complain or else lobby for its merits til the cows come home - its not coming. Seems simple to understand.


----------



## Drew2k

GrumpyBear said:


> Not everybody is going to network there DVR's. Some others think DLB is to complicated, and networking DVR's to create this would be even more complicated than a simple button on the remote. Like the idea, Networking your DVR's will be the issue to over come.


The idea floated wouldn't require multiple DVRs. 

"the *foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR*, but the *background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR *or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR"


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Per the thread heading.....
> 
> My thoughts are despite over 2000 posts now....
> 
> Countless clarifications that DLB *will not *be happening (but "something better" is under development, per a DirecTV senior rep who disclosed this months ago - and it was clearly reported on several occasions in pther posts) --- some folks are still in denial on this topic. It's not happening, period. You can argue and complain or else lobby for its merits til the cows come home - its not coming. Seems simple to understand.


Sorry, hdtvfan, but no statement was ever made that definitively says that DLB will not be happening.... that's just one interpretation of many interpretations about the actual statement that was made: " "*DLB could be done, we have something better coming.*" But there's a whole 'nother thread parsing that statement ...


----------



## rick71ghia

Drew2k said:


> The idea floated wouldn't require multiple DVRs.
> 
> "the *foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR*, but the *background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR *or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR"


Access to a tuner on another DVR would be of limited value unless there was some way to remotely change stations. For me, it would be a rare case where another DVR's tuner was on a station I wanted to use with DLB.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> What if the "something better" than DLB will be a feature that combines DLB with MRV? Meaning the foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR, but the background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR, with pause and resume control, where you can pause a buffer somewhere else, and pick it up on the something-better-than-DLB magic buffer??


That would definitely fit the bill of "something better" as well as the functionality of DLB.

Nice...

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rick71ghia said:


> Access to a tuner on another DVR would be of limited value unless there was some way to remotely change stations. For me, it would be a rare case where another DVR's tuner was on a station I wanted to use with DLB.


I seems to me that if I'm using one DVR to access another that I would also control it from my DVR.

Meaning, while connected to the tuner on another DVR, as I press a button my remote, the DVR will relay the appropriate commands to that tuner.

If it talks to the other DVR via the network to access the tuner then, IMHO, it should also relay the commands necessary to control it.

Mike


----------



## sunking

Once again last night I was cursing this stupid lack of DLB. The Yankees are in on in rain delay so I'm watching Dr Strangelove. Every 15 minutes I switch back to see if the game is still in delay. Just a quick change to see what's going on. Still rain, so I go back to Dr Strangelove after a minute or two and notice that the bombers have been recalled. So I go to see what I missed (been a while since I've watched that movie), and boom. NO BUFFER! So I missed the whole part of Mandrake getting through to the War Room with the prefix code.

Now I know I could have hit record, but my god, it's a movie that I just decided to watch as filler. I don't want to have to do the extra steps and the house cleaning on the drive, or even want to think about doing it. I just want to veg and surf and not plan how I should best record things because it's fluid and changes from one commercial break to the next. Not to mention the number of times the opposite has happened where I haven't been able to go back and see a HR that was hit because I wanted to see real quick who got booted off whatever reality show that is 95% filler until the last 2 minutes. So frustrating. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think that the majority of the use I have for the DVR is the stupid buffers. I honestly don't record all that many shows and don't even really time shift. On the east coast primetime happens to be just that, the primetime to watch the tube! For me at least it's a good TV watching time.

Venting complete. thank you.


----------



## dennisj00

You're preaching to the choir here. . . and some still don't understand how easy it made things and still have the gall to vote or argue against it!!

The great ACTIVE button is certainly in the wrong place (actually a worthless button on the remote!) and is a buffer killer.

I still don't understand why it's virtually the only DVR without DLB. And the 'something better' is coming doesn't cut it either.


----------



## rawilson

Even simpler than that for me...every time I enter the room and the kids are watching Sponge Bob, I want to pause Sponge Bob, switch tuners and surf around to see what I'm missing, then switch tuners back so they can pick back up where they were. I know I can do that with the guide, but that's not what I'm used to doing (with tivo). I just want the old functionality back.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Drew2k said:


> The idea floated wouldn't require multiple DVRs.
> 
> "the *foreground buffer is from a tuner on this DVR*, but the *background buffer can be a tuner from this DVR *or a tuner or playlist item from another DVR"


Hmmm Drew,
If you have Foreground tuner on one DVR and Background tuner or playlist on a 2nd DVR, isn't that multiple DVR's? As in more than one? Also unless they were in the same Cabinet, you would still have to network them, so Foreground and Background DVR's could work together. Me Networking isn't a problem, multiple network drops as well as Wireless through out the house, not sure I want to Network Multiple DVR's just to get DLB though(or something better than DLB)


----------



## NickD

rawilson said:


> Even simpler than that for me...every time I enter the room and the kids are watching Sponge Bob, I want to pause Sponge Bob, switch tuners and surf around to see what I'm missing, then switch tuners back so they can pick back up where they were. I know I can do that with the guide, but that's not what I'm used to doing (with tivo). I just want the old functionality back.


I here you and it is reasons like this why I miss DLB. I don't want to have to record every show so that I can flip stations on the other tuner.


----------



## Drew2k

rick71ghia said:


> Access to a tuner on another DVR would be of limited value unless there was some way to remotely change stations. For me, it would be a rare case where another DVR's tuner was on a station I wanted to use with DLB.


Here's a scenario which I'm sure some people run into often ...

DVR-A Tuners 1 and 2 are free (not recording) but someone is watching a program from the playlist on the TV for DVR-A.

You are watching live TV using DVR-B, where Tuner 2 is recording something, so the bacgkround buffer is not free.

With my wild "better than DLB" idea, you could toggle between DVR-B/Tuner 1 and DVR-A/Tuner 1 or maybe even DVR-A/Tuner 2. Why the heck not ... I just gave DIRECTV the solution for Triple-LB!


----------



## Drew2k

GrumpyBear said:


> Hmmm Drew,
> If you have Foreground tuner on one DVR and Background tuner or playlist on a 2nd DVR, isn't that multiple DVR's? As in more than one? Also unless they were in the same Cabinet, you would still have to network them, so Foreground and Background DVR's could work together. Me Networking isn't a problem, multiple network drops as well as Wireless through out the house, not sure I want to Network Multiple DVR's just to get DLB though(or something better than DLB)


You're overlooking that in my wild idea the background tuner can EITHER be from the current receiver OR from a remote receiver. So MRV would not be required if the user just wants to use the current receiver. That's why I highlighted it in green.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Drew2k said:


> You're overlooking that in my wild idea the background tuner can EITHER be from the current receiver OR from a remote receiver. So MRV would not be required if the user just wants to use the current receiver. That's why I highlighted it in green.


No I didn't overlook, I was pointing out it still required more than 1 DVR, and would need to be networked/Connected someway. Still can't be done with a single D* DVR.


----------



## Drew2k

GrumpyBear said:


> No I didn't overlook, I was pointing out it still required more than 1 DVR, and would need to be networked/Connected someway. Still can't be done with a single D* DVR.


No, my idea wouldn't require more than one DVR. DLB could be done with a single DVR to toggle foreground and background buffers.

I think your dislike of all things "networked" may be coloring your perception of my idea ... The "something better" idea is that the background tuner could be from another DVR. But it could also be from the same DVR as the foreground tuner. Someone with only one DVR could easily have DLB.

(This reminds me of an old riddle: I have two coins totaling 15¢, and one of them is not a dime. What are they?)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> No, my idea wouldn't require more than one DVR. DLB could be done with a single DVR to toggle foreground and background buffers.
> 
> I think your dislike of all things "networked" may be coloring your perception of my idea ... The "something better" idea is that the background tuner could be from another DVR. But it could also be from the same DVR as the foreground tuner. Someone with only one DVR could easily have DLB.
> 
> (This reminds me of an old riddle: I have two coins totaling 15¢, and one of them is not a dime. What are they?)


1 dime and the one not a dime is a nickle 

The only issue I have with this is the "*DLB could be done....*" statement.

I kinda implies that we won't have DLB as we know it..... :scratchin

Mike

(what's maximum amount of change you can have and still not be able to make change for a dollar??)


----------



## Drew2k

MicroBeta said:


> (what's maximum amount of change you can have and still not be able to make change for a dollar??)


My unedcuated guess would be 99¢...


----------



## GrumpyBear

Drew2k said:


> No, my idea wouldn't require more than one DVR. DLB could be done with a single DVR to toggle foreground and background buffers.
> 
> I think your dislike of all things "networked" may be coloring your perception of my idea ... The "something better" idea is that the background tuner could be from another DVR. But it could also be from the same DVR as the foreground tuner. Someone with only one DVR could easily have DLB.
> 
> (This reminds me of an old riddle: I have two coins totaling 15¢, and one of them is not a dime. What are they?)


Ok, I did miss the part where you said the backgroud tuner could be on the same reciever. Granted, if that could be done, DLB would be here now.

Don't forget the other coin isn't a nickle


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> My unedcuated guess would be 99¢...


3 - Quarters
4 - Dimes
4 - Pennys
$1.19
:grin:


----------



## Drew2k

MicroBeta said:


> 3 - Quarters
> 4 - Dimes
> 4 - Pennys
> $1.19
> :grin:


Well, I totally blew that! I was thinking that with only 99¢, I still wouldn''t t have change for a dollar! Who knew I could have more than a dollar and still not have change for a dollar! :lol:


----------



## CJTE

I might use it if it were put into effect. I didn't even know about the feature until I got an HR20, then someone showed it to me.

Even though I might not have known/used the feature, I know atleast one person in my home that would use the feature repetitively.

Therefore, I've voted "I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them."
(and I dont care who knows).


----------



## rustynails

Just look at how long this thread is! D could have implemented DLB or something better in this time frame. You know that they knew there would be people wanting this feature and they chose not to do it for some reason. It makes me question D and their commitment to it's customers. DLB should have been a no brainer and installled to begin with in the HR20.


----------



## Flyrx7

rustynails said:


> It makes me question D and their commitment to it's customers. DLB should have been a no brainer and installled to begin with in the HR20.


Very true.

Makes me wonder who exactly made that decision at D*, and if they still have a job. That has got to be one of the stupidest decisions ever.
That in itself is what makes the whole lack of DLB such a compelling topic, the shear lack of cognitive thinking behind the decision to not have DLB.

I think some company out there should make an add-on box that would implement DLB for these receivers, market it and sell it for $99.95.

Frank


----------



## Nicholsen

Flyrx7 said:


> Very true.
> 
> Makes me wonder who exactly made that decision at D*, and if they still have a job. That has got to be one of the stupidest decisions ever.
> That in itself is what makes the whole lack of DLB such a compelling topic, the shear lack of cognitive thinking behind the decision to not have DLB.
> 
> I think some company out there should make an add-on box that would implement DLB for these receivers, market it and sell it for $99.95.
> 
> Frank


You are dead on. The refusal to squarely address this issue, then or now, is quite amazing. If the complete story ever comes out, it would make a good magazine article.

The fact that the drumbeat for this feature continues speaks for itself. What in the world were they thinking?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Very true.
> 
> Makes me wonder who exactly made that decision at D*, and if they still have a job. That has got to be one of the stupidest decisions ever.
> That in itself is what makes the whole lack of DLB such a compelling topic, the shear lack of cognitive thinking behind the decision to not have DLB.
> 
> I think some company out there should make an add-on box that would implement DLB for these receivers, market it and sell it for $99.95.
> 
> Frank





Nicholsen said:


> You are dead on. The refusal to squarely address this issue, then or now, is quite amazing. If the complete story ever comes out, it would make a good magazine article.
> 
> The fact that the drumbeat for this feature continues speaks for itself. What in the world were they thinking?


Have you read the previous DLB thread.

I think you'll find that is not as simple as some guy decided not to include DLB.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Well, I *do* think that because Earl was absolutely forbidden to reveal why DirecTV chose to not include DLB, the reason was that it would deservedly infuriate their customers. Kind of sounds like one of those "Shhh. Don't tell them or we're toast" things.


----------



## Jaspear

rustynails said:


> Just look at how long this thread is! D could have implemented DLB or something better in this time frame. DLB should have been a no brainer and installled to begin with in the HR20.


No kidding! I'm sitting here watching - on my Expressvu (Echostar) PVR - the Yankees/Mets game *and* the White Sox/Cubs game using the PIP function. I finally have EI on DTV and no way to watch two games at once, go figure.


----------



## Nicholsen

MicroBeta said:


> Have you read the previous DLB thread.
> 
> I think you'll find that is not as simple as some guy decided not to include DLB.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
> 
> Mike


Mike:

I should be careful for what I wish for. The thread is a hundred pages long! LOL

Thanks for pointing me to the old thread. I am a student of history, and not afraid of reading large dusty books. I will make time to read this to see what I can learn.

Can you give me a short summary of what I am about to learn? In a nutshell, what "is your take on "the story."


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Could not have said it better myself.

I don't care about waiting for a better than DLB feature. ALL I WANT IS MY DLB BACK!!!

Anyone at DirectTV Care about the customers?

If they want to add a "better" feature why don't they work on that after giving us a basic feature.



sunking said:


> Once again last night I was cursing this stupid lack of DLB. The Yankees are in on in rain delay so I'm watching Dr Strangelove. Every 15 minutes I switch back to see if the game is still in delay. Just a quick change to see what's going on. Still rain, so I go back to Dr Strangelove after a minute or two and notice that the bombers have been recalled. So I go to see what I missed (been a while since I've watched that movie), and boom. NO BUFFER! So I missed the whole part of Mandrake getting through to the War Room with the prefix code.
> 
> Now I know I could have hit record, but my god, it's a movie that I just decided to watch as filler. I don't want to have to do the extra steps and the house cleaning on the drive, or even want to think about doing it. I just want to veg and surf and not plan how I should best record things because it's fluid and changes from one commercial break to the next. Not to mention the number of times the opposite has happened where I haven't been able to go back and see a HR that was hit because I wanted to see real quick who got booted off whatever reality show that is 95% filler until the last 2 minutes. So frustrating. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think that the majority of the use I have for the DVR is the stupid buffers. I honestly don't record all that many shows and don't even really time shift. On the east coast primetime happens to be just that, the primetime to watch the tube! For me at least it's a good TV watching time.
> 
> Venting complete. thank you.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I'll pay $5 more a month for DLB, not a cent for movies now.



lman said:


> It's better for DirecTV, since there is more potential to make money from Movies Now than DLB. They will lose my money however when my commitment expires, unless I see DLB before that.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Sorry, hdtvfan, but no statement was ever made that definitively says that DLB will not be happening.... that's just one interpretation of many interpretations about the actual statement that was made: " "*DLB could be done, we have something better coming.*" But there's a whole 'nother thread parsing that statement ...


Not to pick nits...

But I was on the chat that day, and it surely was stated that DLB was "not at all planned for delivery". The next statement right after that was "but we plan to have something even better coming some time in the future."

I wrote it down verbatim that day in my notes....knowing that this was a hot topic for a long time...

That said, again.....if the guest from DirecTV was correct that night, DLB's not happening. But we can all speculate our brains out on what "something better" will be, and when... 

Let the games begin....er....continue....


----------



## GrumpyBear

Not planned, doesn't mean it wont happen.
It amazing how a company can change plans to meet the needs of consumers, and the reviewers of hardware.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

GrumpyBear said:


> Not planned, doesn't mean it wont happen.
> It amazing how a company can change plans to meet the needs of consumers, and the reviewers of hardware.


I guess my semantics training in college taught me that while you can make a chain of words mean various things....the point was clear that "something else" was the target.

But then....I've heard the statement "never say never" often enough too.

But people can believe in the tooth fairy if they like...no harm in that.....and the money's good these days...with inflation and all...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

DC_SnDvl said:


> Could not have said it better myself.
> 
> I don't care about waiting for a better than DLB feature. ALL I WANT IS MY DLB BACK!!!
> 
> * Anyone at DirectTV Care about the customers?*
> 
> If they want to add a "better" feature why don't they work on that after giving us a basic feature.


I wonder if Earl is trying to help us now that he is over there.


----------



## dennisj00

It's great to see lots of new faces (actually avatars) supporting and rehashing the arguments regarding the absence of DLB that now is almost 200 pages in both threads.

Folks, I think we're getting ready to see where customer recognition / response really hits the road. The next 6-12 months could really see a down turn in the exponential growth of customer base since the dot com or 9/11 issues of 2000 - 2001.

Disposable income for things like Sat or Cable TV is suddenly going into our gas tanks or the grocery bill for a long time.

If I were on the board of D* (or any other company - particularly banks), I'd be demanding a top ten list of "How to maintain / increase customer base" for the next 24 months -- and guess what would / should be #1 on D* list? DLB

I've only been here with HR20s for 9 months or so (and obviously a TIVO / DLB bias) and have seen some progress and some questionable results but I can't imagine the executive / team responsible for omitting DLB could still support their decision (or be around).

Am I missing something other than the promise of something better?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dennisj00 said:


> It's great to see lots of new faces (actually avatars) supporting and rehashing the arguments regarding the absence of DLB that now is almost 200 pages in both threads.
> 
> Folks, I think we're getting ready to see where customer recognition / response really hits the road. The next 6-12 months could really see a down turn in the exponential growth of customer base since the dot com or 9/11 issues of 2000 - 2001.
> 
> Disposable income for things like Sat or Cable TV is suddenly going into our gas tanks or the grocery bill for a long time.
> 
> If I were on the board of D* (or any other company - particularly banks), I'd be demanding a top ten list of "How to maintain / increase customer base" for the next 24 months -- and guess what would / should be #1 on D* list? DLB
> 
> I've only been here with HR20s for 9 months or so (and obviously a TIVO / DLB bias) and have seen some progress and some questionable results but I can't imagine the executive / team responsible for omitting DLB could still support their decision (or be around).
> 
> Am I missing something other than the promise of something better?


All interesting points.

It really begs the question:

Is the business driving the technology, or is the technology driving the business?

That's the real question.


----------



## MX727

dennisj00 said:


> Folks, I think we're getting ready to see where customer recognition / response really hits the road. The next 6-12 months could really see a down turn in the exponential growth of customer base since the dot com or 9/11 issues of 2000 - 2001.
> 
> Am I missing something other than the promise of something better?


One other thing that they should be aware of; the two year commitments for the early adopters are going to expire this fall. There will be an uptick in cancellations and when combined with the points you've made, it just may get their attention.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All interesting points.
> 
> It really begs the question:
> 
> Is the business driving the technology, or is the technology driving the business?
> 
> That's the real question.


In my experience, it has always been marketing driving the technology.


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not to pick nits...
> 
> But I was on the chat that day, and it surely was stated that DLB was "not at all planned for delivery". The next statement right after that was "but we plan to have something even better coming some time in the future."
> 
> I wrote it down verbatim that day in my notes....knowing that this was a hot topic for a long time...
> 
> That said, again.....if the guest from DirecTV was correct that night, DLB's not happening. But we can all speculate our brains out on what "something better" will be, and when...
> 
> Let the games begin....er....continue....


Well, I was on the chat that day as well, which is why I am able to quote verbatim from the chat, as I did above. "DLB could be done, we have something better coming." Are you saying he didn't make that quote?

I do not recall any comments from the guest speaker on no planned delivery for DLB, so based on what I quoted, there was nothing definitive said that DLB was never going to be delivered.


----------



## dennisj00

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All interesting points.
> 
> It really begs the question:
> 
> Is the business driving the technology, or is the technology driving the business?
> 
> That's the real question.


I think in this case the technology is driving and D* is playing a lot of catch-up on the HR series of DVRs. Their HD content is king and driving the subscriptions but the stability and 'Feature' diversions are hampering the overall development and usable features. For example, Media Share worked better last fall for me than the current CE -- to the point that I've quit spending time trying to get it working.

The Widgets could be a great addition but the average Joe wants reliable recordings and playback and probably won't worry about networking his unit.

I personally haven't had many problems - particularly being on almost every CE since September 07, other than going through 5 HR20s to get 2 that worked. I buy a lot of high tech stuff, personally and working and have never seen that kind of fallout in any other hi-tech product.

But to me DLB is almost a deal breaker --unfortunately coming from a Sat T-60 Tivo, I never investigated or dreamed that the HR wouldn't have it with dual tuners when I converted to HD.

With NFL a little over a month away the clock is ticking!! DLB, MRV and / or the something better hasn't been SOON!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> I do not recall any comments from the guest speaker on no planned delivery for DLB, so based on what I quoted, there was nothing definitive said that DLB was never going to be delivered.


Hi Drew....I know you were on there as well...

I had made a planned point to take careful notes along the way.

A separate question "Will DirecTV every have DLB" was asked, prompting the answer that DLB was "not at all planned for delivery". The question was actualy asked 4 different times by 4 different people, and using 4 different combinations of words to say the virtually the same thing. Not a big deal either way.

The poor guest was almost being bombarded with questions at several points, and was almost 25 questons behind in responses before the Mods got things back under control on 3 different occasions.

What was clear, was that an alternative to DLB is on their radar, although the guest refused to pinpoint any kind of timerframe as to when....

In my mind - at that point - DLB was a dead issue. Speculation on what and when the alternative will be, on the other hand, is fair game.

Quite honestly - this is one of those "love it or care less" features. There are not alot of folks in the middle....it's one or the other.

I understand and respect those who have a passion for it, but personally here, its just not a big deal at all. We just about never used it with the old Tivo DVRbox.

As DennisJ00 pointed out...the average user mainly wants reliable scheduling and playback, as well as HD TV viewing.

So speculate away....


----------



## Flyrx7

dennisj00 said:


> I think in this case the technology is driving and D* is playing a lot of catch-up on the HR series of DVRs.


I agree. It's my belief that when D* started making their own DVR's, as opposed to licensing equipment from people that actually knew how to build DVR's (Tivo, UltimateTV, etc,) they bit off more than they could chew. I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet that their infrastructure wasn't anywhere near what it should have been when they started out. That may be changing now, but it certainly comes at a cost.



dennisj00 said:


> The Widgets could be a great addition *but the average Joe wants reliable recordings and playback* and probably won't worry about networking his unit.


And that is the cost I'm referring too. I'm sure that if they had a capable team that those issues would have been taken care of a long time ago, and we'd already have MRV, DLB and Media Share that actually works, but I digress.



dennisj00 said:


> I buy a lot of high tech stuff, personally and working and have never seen that kind of fallout in any other hi-tech product.


Very true. I can't think of anything off the top of my head either, except for maybe Windows Vista, but alot of that may be due to alot of MS haters too.

I still hope that one day, when their team get's up to speed or they add some knowledgable experts that they'll get the bugs ironed out, then they can focus more on the bells and whistles. But it does make one wonder, at this rate, if any of that will ever happen 

Regards,
Frank


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Flyrx7 said:


> I still hope that one day, when their team get's up to speed or they add some knowledgable experts that they'll get the bugs ironed out, then they can focus more on the bells and whistles. But it does make one wonder, at this rate, if any of that will ever happen
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I hope Earl is going to help us. Has anyone heard from him and if he's trying to get DLB for us?

Thanks


----------



## GrumpyBear

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess my semantics training in college taught me that while you can make a chain of words mean various things....the point was clear that "something else" was the target.
> 
> But then....I've heard the statement "never say never" often enough too.
> 
> But people can believe in the tooth fairy if they like...no harm in that.....and the money's good these days...with inflation and all...


My boss says I can't post in this forum until after I finish my goals for the year. You guys give me bad ideas. Our group was tasked with coming up with one idea each for bonus structure this year. I came up with a good one after Reading this post. I want to cut in half my bonus for each deal that I do a Customization for, that leads to a succusseful deal. Instead of the full bonus I want a mulitplier for each level of Management, that says no, our feature is better, we don't need it. Or at are yearly visits from the Japanesse, and they tell us this is how the market is moving, and what features that the other side has, that we wont be needing. Last year492 proposed Customizations lead to 105 deals, which turned into 6 embedded features, that just a year ago, we were told we wouldn't be needing. Boss liked the idea, but the last thing we need to do is to point out just how much our Engineering and Managment staff's miss the Target(that and we when calulated the levels of Managment per deal, it would have almost Tripled my Salary. Now we have also forced our competition to do the same. Granted our World wide sales last yr was just over 6.4 Billion dollars. 
NOTHING but NOTHING can force a change faster, for a company, than the Target audience saying "why don't you have this feature that everybody else has", your equipment must not be as advanced.


----------



## Flyrx7

GrumpyBear said:


> NOTHING but NOTHING can force a change faster, for a company, than the Target audience saying "why don't you have this feature that everybody else has", your equipment must not be as advanced.


Unless your company is Directv. They conjure the image in my mind of the ostrich with it's head in the sand.


----------



## dennisj00

Flyrx7 said:


> I agree. It's my belief that when D* started making their own DVR's, as opposed to licensing equipment from people that actually knew how to build DVR's (Tivo, UltimateTV, etc,) they bit off more than they could chew. I'd think it would be a pretty safe bet that their infrastructure wasn't anywhere near what it should have been when they started out. That may be changing now, but it certainly comes at a cost.
> 
> And that is the cost I'm referring too. I'm sure that if they had a capable team that those issues would have been taken care of a long time ago, and we'd already have MRV, DLB and Media Share that actually works, but I digress.
> 
> Very true. I can't think of anything off the top of my head either, except for maybe Windows Vista, but alot of that may be due to alot of MS haters too.
> 
> I still hope that one day, when their team get's up to speed or they add some knowledgable experts that they'll get the bugs ironed out, then they can focus more on the bells and whistles. But it does make one wonder, at this rate, if any of that will ever happen
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


While I'm no fan of Vista, Windows in general is a phenomenal task. Think of the millions / billions of combinations of hardware and drivers that have to work together. Just to be able to take a $10 gigabyte memory card from a multitude of cameras and plug it into a laptop and see pictures, video and audio and then instantly send it around the world to someone's $69 picture frame. . .

I understand most of this stuff and am still amazed that it all works so seamlessly - and reliably! Although I can remember clones that would reboot if you waved your hand over the motherboard!

But then looking at the general problems on the board that a dish, lnbs, coax, splitter / mux, bbcs and DVR can't record 'Earl' with any guarantee TWO years into it's product life and from the same vendor / installer-- I'm amazed there isn't outrage!

And "SOON" we will have something better than DLB but first we have to change the record light from yellow to orange to red and back to yellow and then back to orange. . . while we reboot every two days or so. I know, it's a CE and we have to expect potential problems. (and by the way the speculation thread of something better than DLB died pretty quickly from no really good ideas!)

In the meantime (a year ago, 18 months ago?) we could have had a second buffer, a down arrow on the remote to switch between tuners and not had 200 pages of "DLB is no good for me so you don't need it", rants and speculations and who said what in the chat room.

Just give us DLB! (and MRV the next week!)


----------



## Flyrx7

dennisj00 said:


> (and by the way the speculation thread of something better than DLB died pretty quickly from no really good ideas!)


I think there were a few good ideas, but what ultimately killed it was everyone finally saw it for what it was, a futile exercise in absurd speculation spawned in an attempt at subterfuge, trying to sweep the DLB topic under the rug. I'm sure the guys at D* had a pretty good laugh at that one.

When it's all said and done, just give me DLB and a unit that works. I could care less if I can network all (2) of my receivers, look at my digital pictures that are on my computer, play games, or even download cropped HD movies that I can only watch for 24 hours after I pay for them. 
I don't need a receiver that will make me coffee, wake me in the morning and put the toast on. Just give me DLB and I'll go away happy.

Frank


----------



## rhipps

Flyrx7 said:


> I think there were a few good ideas, but what ultimately killed it was everyone finally saw it for what it was, a futile exercise in absurd speculation spawned in an attempt at subterfuge, trying to sweep the DLB topic under the rug. I'm sure the guys at D* had a pretty good laugh at that one.
> 
> When it's all said and done, just give me DLB and a unit that works. I could care less if I can network all (2) of my receivers, look at my digital pictures that are on my computer, play games, or even download cropped HD movies that I can only watch for 24 hours after I pay for them.
> I don't need a receiver that will make me coffee, wake me in the morning and put the toast on. Just give me DLB and I'll go away happy.
> 
> Frank


Just give me the digital local channels that have been available OTA for many many months and I'll go away happy AND remain a DTV customer :grin: :grin:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hi Drew....I know you were on there as well...
> 
> I had made a planned point to take careful notes along the way.
> 
> A separate question "Will DirecTV every have DLB" was asked, prompting the answer that DLB was "not at all planned for delivery". The question was actualy asked 4 different times by 4 different people, and using 4 different combinations of words to say the virtually the same thing. Not a big deal either way.
> 
> The poor guest was almost being bombarded with questions at several points, and was almost 25 questons behind in responses before the Mods got things back under control on 3 different occasions.
> 
> What was clear, was that an alternative to DLB is on their radar, although the guest refused to pinpoint any kind of timerframe as to when....
> 
> *In my mind - at that point - DLB was a dead issue. Speculation on what and when the alternative will be, on the other hand, is fair game.*
> 
> Quite honestly - this is one of those "love it or care less" features. There are not alot of folks in the middle....it's one or the other.
> 
> I understand and respect those who have a passion for it, but personally here, its just not a big deal at all. We just about never used it with the old Tivo DVRbox.
> 
> As DennisJ00 pointed out...the average user mainly wants reliable scheduling and playback, as well as HD TV viewing.
> 
> So speculate away....


I'm afraid I have to agree with you. As much a I would like to have DLB the way I remember it....well it just doesn't seem likely.

IMHO, It doesn't matter what the exact wording was (although, my notes match Drews), it implies that DLB isn't comming.

At least not as we currently define it.

Which is why I have a small problem with Drew2K latest idea.

If I have only one DVR and can access both tuners, that would be just a straight forward implementation of DLB.

If that was part of the plan I think he would have said so in the chat session.

It seemed, to me at least, that a straight forward implementation of DLB wasn't in the cards and that "something better" was on the way.

I took that to mean that it would be part a larger feature set.

I may be reading too much into his words but it I envisioned functionality that wasn't for a standalone DVR....i.e. it would be part of networked DVRs.

OR......

*Now for some speculation with absolutely no basis in fact*...
It could have been that his point was not necessarily to say that DLB wasn't going to happen but it would be part of something larger. Trying to emphasize that some new cool stuff would be coming. Knowing that DLB would have to wait for this new feature set he could quell the questions and put forth an idea of new features that would be "better" than or make DLB "better". In this scenario, Drew2k implementation would be the correct one.

It's a theory...

Mike


----------



## Rocker07

dennisj00 said:


> I think in this case the technology is driving and D* is playing a lot of catch-up on the HR series of DVRs. Their HD content is king and driving the subscriptions but the stability and 'Feature' diversions are hampering the overall development and usable features. For example, Media Share worked better last fall for me than the current CE -- to the point that I've quit spending time trying to get it working.
> 
> The Widgets could be a great addition but the average Joe wants reliable recordings and playback and probably won't worry about networking his unit.
> 
> I personally haven't had many problems - particularly being on almost every CE since September 07, other than going through 5 HR20s to get 2 that worked. I buy a lot of high tech stuff, personally and working and have never seen that kind of fallout in any other hi-tech product.
> 
> But to me DLB is almost a deal breaker --unfortunately coming from a Sat T-60 Tivo, I never investigated or dreamed that the HR wouldn't have it with dual tuners when I converted to HD.
> 
> With NFL a little over a month away the clock is ticking!! DLB, MRV and / or the something better hasn't been SOON!


I was in the exact same boat. I "upgraded" from the Tivo and never dreamed the new HR20 wouldn't have DLB's. Didn't even cross my mind. I remember when I first got the remote and I couldn't figure out how to switch tuners......In my mind it's like buying a Mercedes and finding out it doesn't have an air conditioner.:nono2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rocker07 said:


> In my mind it's like buying a Mercedes and finding out it doesn't have an air conditioner.:nono2:


I have a Mercedes, and made sure it had an air conditioner *before* I bought it.

Lessons learned.


----------



## Rocker07

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have a Mercedes, and made sure it had an air conditioner *before* I bought it.
> 
> Lessons learned.


I'm guessing you wouldn't have bought it if it didn't....even if they told you that soon it would have something better.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Rocker07 said:


> I'm guessing you wouldn't have bought it if it didn't....even if they told you that soon it would have something better.


There are other brands....they also offer test drives...


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are other brands....they also offer test drives...


This sounds like bait ... because I know you know that DIRECTV doesn't offer test drives of DVR equipment.


----------



## ub1934

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are other brands....they also offer test drives...


Maybe something better is that D11 has DLBs on all transponders :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> This sounds like bait ... because I know you know that DIRECTV doesn't offer test drives of DVR equipment.


OOOOOhhhhhhhhhhh.........................

Anyone got a hook? :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ub1934 said:


> Maybe something better is that D11 has DLBs on all transponders :lol:


Or future DVR's with 8 tuners in each.... :eek2:   :lol:


----------



## Flyrx7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Or future DVR's with 8 tuners in each.... :eek2:   :lol:


Yeah, but knowing D*, you'd still only have (1) live buffer


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. 139 8.23%
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. *262 15.52%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 126 7.46%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1095 64.87%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. *66 3.91%*
Voters: 1688

Replies 2,078
Views 66,738

Old DLB stats

A must have!* 2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
Views*  146,826*


----------



## puffnstuff

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have a Mercedes, and made sure it had an air conditioner *before* I bought it.
> 
> Lessons learned.


Well I was told it was coming a long time ago or I would have never got it , so I guess my lesson is don't ever trust Directv or mods on a forum .


----------



## ATARI

Don't trust large corporations and take everything you read on forums with a grain of salt.

Sounds like words to live by to me.


Which is why when some D* bigwig types in an online chat that 'something better' is coming, I just roll my eyes.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> Don't trust large corporations and take everything you read on forums with a grain of salt.
> 
> Sounds like words to live by to me.
> 
> Which is why when some D* bigwig posts in an online chat that 'something better' is coming, I just roll my eyes.


No D* Bigwig, posted anything. A D* Bigwig was in a chatroom where NO OFFICAL notes/transcripts were kept. Kind of one of those "off" the record comments.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

puffnstuff said:


> Well I was told it was coming a long time ago or I would have never got it , so I guess my lesson is don't ever trust Directv or mods on a forum .


It would sure interesting to see the reaction if and when when whatever they deliver is actually better than DLB....

I guess we'll all have to wait and see. Many of us here are good at it.


----------



## dennisj00

Waiting and waiting and waiting here . . . 

And I'll be the FIRST to say I was wrong IF it makes up for not having DLB in the interim!

But we shouldn't hold our breath! Should we?


----------



## Flyrx7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It would sure interesting to see the reaction if and when when whatever they deliver is actually better than DLB....


I know one thing for sure, I'm not holding my breath. I'm highly dubious about the "something better" claim to begin with.

If by some stroke of luck that something does get implemented on the current HR2*'s that is actually better, and fills my requirements of DLB, then I'd gladly take my hat off to D*.

On another tangent, I wonder how vocal this thread is going to get if they don't have DLB in time for the NFL season. It seems to me that alot of 2 year commitments will be up at about the same time. That's some pretty good moola' hanging in the balance.

Come to think of it, THAT would be a great marketing ploy; 
"Step right up, don't be shy, let me show you how good Sunday Ticket will be with....., wait for it.........Dual Live Buffers! Now, for the first time ever, watch two games at the same time, at no extra cost! It's so easy a caveman could do it!"

Frank


----------



## DarinC

Flyrx7 said:


> If buy some stroke of luck ...


What's that going for these days... I could really use some.

Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## puffnstuff

ATARI said:


> Don't trust large corporations and take everything you read on forums with a grain of salt.
> 
> Sounds like words to live by to me.
> 
> Which is why when some D* bigwig types in an online chat that 'something better' is coming, I just roll my eyes.


Isn't that the truth . I also agree about the something better he either said it to quiet us down or he doesn't even know what DLB is , which I can believe since he might of had something to do with it not being there , and now doesn't want to feel stupid , so he just keeps with the Directv standards of not really knowing anything about DVR's but promise the problem will be fixed ( or something better ) in a future update .


----------



## GrumpyBear

I can't really post here, but can somebody check how many pages ago that this subject was unstickyed? It was was supposed to die with in a week of that, as Something better would be the New hot topic.


----------



## coacho

I primarily use both of my HR10s because they have DLB (better slo/mo, etc); I only use the HR20 when I have to due to the HD content.


----------



## HarleyD

Something better?

That could only be DLB with bacon and cheese.

And DirecTV has been pretty heavy on the "cheese" over the last few years.


----------



## ATARI

HarleyD said:


> Something better?
> 
> That could only be DLB with bacon and cheese.
> 
> And DirecTV has been pretty heavy on the "cheese" over the last few years.


I have to agree -- everything is better with bacon.


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> I can't really post here, but can somebody check how many pages ago that this subject was unstickyed? It was was supposed to die with in a week of that, as Something better would be the New hot topic.


I think Que's post of 5/6/2008 (#1559) was the first unstickied post.

So, over 500 posts later, still going strong.

The "Better than DLB" thread, alas, has gone to the great bit bucket.


----------



## kanderna

ATARI said:


> The "Better than DLB" thread, alas, has gone to the great bit bucket.


:lol: Until MicroBeta revived it today! :Shakes Fist:


----------



## Flyrx7

kanderna said:


> :lol: Until MicroBeta revived it today! :Shakes Fist:


Good grief  
I think someone needs a time out. Next thing you know, bolt will start posting again :nono2:

(sorry for the Off-Topic levity, nothing personal intended)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Gentlemen and ladies, 

I tend to ignore this thread as I think that it's been a very long time since anything truly new has come out of it. However, if I may remind you of some simple rules:

(1) Please treat your fellow members with respect, and this applies equally to DIRECTV personnel. In fact it would be best to treat everyone with respect. 

(2) Please keep posts to the topic in the thread. If I were to go ahead and delete every off-topic post I suspect the volume in this thread would cut by at least half.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> I can't really post here, but can somebody check how many pages ago that this subject was unstickyed? It was was supposed to die with in a week of that, as Something better would be the New hot topic.





ATARI said:


> I think Que's post of 5/6/2008 (#1559) was the first unstickied post.
> 
> So, over 500 posts later, still going strong.
> 
> The "Better than DLB" thread, alas, has gone to the great bit bucket.


Ah, the thread is here to live and die on it's own .. but, as Stuart noted .. we do need to stay on topic. It's not a complete free for all.


----------



## RCY

IMO, since there is a significant portion of the populace here that believes that DLB is an important function and since the thread has been "unstickied", sometimes the discourse wanders from the topic. Folks want to keep D* aware of the fact that DLB is an important function (to them, anyway) and keeping this thread alive is one way to do that.

There were times when the thread was stickied that days would pass between posts. Since the thread always showed up at the top of the page, those who desired DLB could be reminded of the percieved importance of DLB. Once folks thought that DLB was being "swept under the rug" by removing the sticky thread, they do the only thing they can by keeping this thread going.

The two easiest ways to avoid off topic ramblings on this thread are, IMO:

1. Re-sticky the thread with the caveat that the topic must strictly be DLB.
2. D* to issue a definitive statement that they never intend to implement DLB. Then the mods can call the topic "dead" and kill the thread.

Just one man's opinion...FWIW.


----------



## Drew2k

A reasonable post, RCY, but I don't think this thread will be stickied again, and I doubt DIRECTV will come out with any pronouncements, one way or another, on DLB.


----------



## RCY

Didn't expect anything to happen, but sometimes the desire to state the obvious gets the best of me.


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew, you are correct .. Also, this is a general message to all and not targeting RCY in particular ..

Please if you have a question about our moderation ask via private message and not here in the open forums. This is one of our rules here at DBSTalk.com.

I will answer this one question, this one time ..

There are many things that people want done to the HR2x series. DLB happens to be one of the items on the list. The moderators collectively determined that the timing was right to move this thread into "normal" status .. meaning it will be just like every other thread here and not be elevated to special status .. Also, just as with any other topic on our forum if there is nothing to be said .. then it rolls off of page one or farther.

Certainly folks are passionate about DLB. That is unquestionable. If you have something to say about DLB, you have a place to say it. So, enjoy the thread and have a little fun, but for the most part .. please simply try to stay on topic.

Thank You.

*Note: If anyone has any questions about this decision which has been in place for a number of months now, please address them via Private Message*


----------



## Flyrx7

RCY said:


> IMO, since there is a significant portion of the populace here that believes that DLB is an important function and since the thread has been "unstickied", sometimes the discourse wanders from the topic. Folks want to keep D* aware of the fact that DLB is an important function (to them, anyway) and keeping this thread alive is one way to do that.


An astute observation. To go with that, I think things will constantly go down hill the longer this issue goes without resolution, as people will become more and more dissolutioned by the (apparent) lack of intelligent decision making on D*s part. Especially when the NFL season gets going (unless *they* go on strike too).

Frank


----------



## Nicholsen

I think this thread will remain lively until D* implements DLB. It's my number one complaint about the HR21. I have others, but this is number one. 

I am not sure what to do about the NFL-ST this year. I just want to be able to push the down button and switch between games. It's a simple pleasure, but one I have become fond of over the last 10 years. Given the price for Sunday Ticket, I think users have every right to be unhappy about the current DLB situation.

D*, please implement DLB before the NFL season begins.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Nicholsen said:


> I think this thread will remain lively until D* implements DLB. It's my number one complaint about the HR21. I have others, but this is number one.


...anyone want to start a "pool" on when we hit 72,657 posts? :eek2:

JUST KIDDING!!!!


----------



## James Long

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...anyone want to start a "pool" on when we hit 72,657 posts? :eek2:


How about a poll about what will come first ... 72,657 posts in this thread or DLB?

(No, making this thread 72,657 posts long will not get DirecTV to add DLB.  )


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> How about a poll about what will come first ... 72,657 posts in this thread or DLB?
> 
> (No, making this thread 72,657 posts long will not get DirecTV to add DLB.  )


I have a feeling that this Thread will hit 72k plus posts, if you included the other 2 Threads, long before DLB or Something better than DLB.


----------



## ATARI

A Dual Live Buffer haiku:

I like D L B
I can watch two shows at once
This makes me happy


----------



## luckydob

So any idea when the "better than DLB" will be released? I'm kinda getting impatient.


----------



## NickD

luckydob said:


> So any idea when the "better than DLB" will be released? I'm kinda getting impatient.


Sometime in the future:lol:


----------



## DJ iD4

i voted that I would like the DLBs, but the workaround is adequate. Although i haven't tried the work around. But i will give it a shot. That was the one feature i missed most from my Directivo. Being able to watch two things at once. But we'll see, i'll check out the work around.


----------



## dennisj00

The workaround is barely adequate and has several gotchas. Particularly if you hit the wrong remote button and change channels or hit the useless "Active" and your live buffer is gone.

You have to clean up the recordings and be sure recordings are padded for sports, etc. 

Just not as easy as the Live button on DTivo.


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> The workaround is barely adequate and has several gotchas. Particularly if you hit the wrong remote button and change channels or hit the useless "Active" and your live buffer is gone.


You do realize that if you hit the wrong remote button and change channels on a TiVo that you could also lose your second buffer.


----------



## dennisj00

Maybe it was because of the double buffers or fewer keystrokes to change buffers, but it was never the problem it is with the workaround.

As always, it seems to happen at the worst time!


----------



## Rocker07

Doug Brott said:


> You do realize that if you hit the wrong remote button and change channels on a TiVo that you could also lose your second buffer.


Actually, I used to change channels till my heart was content and never lost the second buffer........oh for the good ole days


----------



## Rocker07

DJ iD4 said:


> i voted that I would like the DLBs, but the workaround is adequate. Although i haven't tried the work around. But i will give it a shot. That was the one feature i missed most from my Directivo. Being able to watch two things at once. But we'll see, i'll check out the work around.


Let me know if you'd still vote that way after trying to use the so called "workaround"


----------



## rustynails

I don't think DLB is coming. They have had plenty of time to get this done. They chose not to do it from the very beginning. Of course I almost lost hope when I was on the E side waiting for SCIFIHD to come but it eventually happened!


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> You do realize that if you hit the wrong remote button and change channels on a TiVo that you could also lose your second buffer.


Of course, but since the execution of swapping buffers used to be one button push...there were fewer break points in that process.


----------



## Nicholsen

mikewolf13 said:


> Of course, but since the execution of swapping buffers used to be one button push...there were fewer break points in that process.


One button the size of a half dollar which you cannot miss.

The TIVO implementation if DLB is just about perfect (I only wish the buffers stored 90 minutes, like the Ultimate TV). The HR2x workaround is anything but.


----------



## dennisj00

And reinforces how imperfect the HR2x implementation is . . . when it could be that easy!

We're now getting PPV HD movies pre-downloaded in the user space (correction - reserved space) so another 45-90 minute buffer and a button to switch between them can't be that hard!

I wouldn't be surprised to see a backlash about these downloads similar to the Tivo 'Suggestions' -- I always used that as a free-space indicator but lots of users hated them.


----------



## boltjames

rustynails said:


> I don't think DLB is coming. They have had plenty of time to get this done. They chose not to do it from the very beginning.


A senior member of D* decended upon this forum with the following words from God:

"DLB. Not happening."

Why so many are still in denial is beyond me.

BJ


----------



## dennisj00

Actually it could have been a 12 year-old girl (or some dbsTalk poster) in the chat room based on the accuracy and speculation that's been in several threads!

And I seriously don't think God was involved in the wording!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

boltjames said:


> A senior member of D* decended upon this forum with the following words from God:
> 
> "DLB. Not happening."
> 
> Why so many are still in denial is beyond me.
> 
> BJ


Could you do me a favor and please tell me when he said that.

The only thing I can find in my notes from that chat session is "DLB could be done, we have something better coming".

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> And reinforces how imperfect the HR2x implementation is . . . when it could be that easy!
> 
> We're now getting PPV HD movies pre-downloaded in the user space so another 45-90 minute buffer and a button to switch between them can't be that hard!
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see a backlash about these downloads similar to the Tivo 'Suggestions' -- I always used that as a free-space indicator but lots of users hated them.


Actually, the pre-downloaded PPV HD movies are kept in the reserved area which has never been available as user space.


----------



## dennisj00

Doug, that was my point. The Tivo 'Suggestions' never bumped any recording you selected. I actually found a few series from the suggestions and they never interferred with the user space -- but many users didn't want their DVRs busy with recording things they hadn't requested.

(In re-reading, I did use the term 'User' space -- when it should have been reserved space. . . Thanks!)

But 45-90 minutes from the reserved area could certainly be used as the second buffer!!


----------



## bonscott87

dennisj00 said:


> Actually it could have been a 12 year-old girl (or some dbsTalk poster) in the chat room based on the accuracy and speculation that's been in several threads!
> 
> And I seriously don't think God was involved in the wording!


It was the CTO.


----------



## bonscott87

MicroBeta said:


> Could you do me a favor and please tell me when he said that.
> 
> The only thing I can find in my notes from that chat session is "DLB could be done, we have something better coming".
> 
> Mike


He said more then once that DLB, while technically possible, just isn't going to happen. And then he teased that something better then DLB is coming. Whatever that is. My speculation is that it will have something to do with the widgets.

But in any case a guy that reports directly to Chase said it's not coming. Certainly things change, but people need to come to terms.


----------



## Drew2k

I don't think anyone should give up the "fight" for DLB or cease expressing their longing for it. We have no idea what will change over time, or whether someone who wants DLB comes to DIRECTV in some position of influence, or if the new feature will even incorporate some form of DLB. We wouldn't have one-press access to the Guide if people here weren't vocal.


----------



## kokishin

Romulo is such a joker! He tried to give me a wedgie the other day after my staff meeting. Joke was on him since I was wearing Depends!

I keep telling him I want DLB and he keeps telling me our software guys will have something better. Romulo makes me crazy sometimes.

-- CC



bonscott87 said:


> He said more then once that DLB, while technically possible, just isn't going to happen. And then he teased that something better then DLB is coming. Whatever that is. My speculation is that it will have something to do with the widgets.
> 
> But in any case a guy that reports directly to Chase said it's not coming. Certainly things change, but people need to come to terms.


----------



## Flyrx7

bonscott87 said:


> But in any case a guy that reports directly to Chase said it's not coming. Certainly things change, but people need to come to terms.


Honestly, IMHO, the people that need to come to terms is Directv.
If they honestly *don't* plan to do DLB, whether its something better or just plain old DLB, then that truly has to be, again, my opinion, one of the stupidest decisions ever.

That leads me to believe that DLB *will* happen eventually, because I find it very hard to believe that D* could be so wrong in their thinking to not do DLB. That just doesn't compute.


----------



## bonscott87

Drew2k said:


> I don't think anyone should give up the "fight" for DLB or cease expressing their longing for it. We have no idea what will change over time, or whether someone who wants DLB comes to DIRECTV in some position of influence, or if the new feature will even incorporate some form of DLB. We wouldn't have one-press access to the Guide if people here weren't vocal.


Very true!


----------



## mfaine

bonscott87 said:


> We wouldn't have one-press access to the Guide if people here weren't vocal.


Former Comcast customer here who misses DLB. Being new, I didn't know that there was a time when it required more than one button press to access the guide.

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved in being vocal on the guide issue, and also those who are speaking up now about the DLB issue.


----------



## DarinC

bonscott87 said:


> He said more then once that DLB, while technically possible, just isn't going to happen.


Has anyone been able to determine what makes it so unnattractive for them to implement? Most companies would pay good money for market research to try to find out what features would make their product desireable. I would think they would have to be complete idiots to ignore the demand, or it would have to be really, really hard for them to do.

Or perhaps they are STILL just overwhelmed with trying to make the simple DVR functions work? I've only just "upgraded" from an HR10 a couple weeks ago, and haven't really put it through it's paces yet. But I've already discovered that a series recording I set up ended up recording five of the same episode. Hopefully that was a fluke. But if that is an example of the type of reliability I can expect, I can see why DLB might be on the back burner. But never? :nono2:


----------



## Drew2k

mfaine said:


> Former Comcast customer here who misses DLB. Being new, I didn't know that there was a time when it required more than one button press to access the guide.


Originally, the default was that the first press of GUIDE displayed the Guide Filter screen, and the user had to then press SELECT to see All channels. DIRECTV eventually introduced a setting under Display options where the user could choose whether to display the Guide or the Guide Filter on the first press of GUIDE. :up:


----------



## HarleyD

DarinC said:


> Has anyone been able to determine what makes it so unnattractive for them to implement? Most companies would pay good money for market research to try to find out what features would make their product desireable. I would think they would have to be complete idiots to ignore the demand, or it would have to be really, really hard for them to do.
> 
> Or perhaps they are STILL just overwhelmed with trying to make the simple DVR functions work? I've only just "upgraded" from an HR10 a couple weeks ago, and haven't really put it through it's paces yet. But I've already discovered that a series recording I set up ended up recording five of the same episode. Hopefully that was a fluke. But if that is an example of the type of reliability I can expect, I can see why DLB might be on the back burner. But never? :nono2:


According to Earl Bonovich, the truth is out there but anyone who knows it is forbidden to speak it.

Which implies that it was a decision born of corporate expediency. A decision that was made in DirecTV's best interest and not the customer's best interest, even at the expense of some of the customers it would seem.

Saying it was a deliberate decision and then suppressing the facts of the deliberation even in the face of very significant subscriber dissatisfaction really leads to no other conclusion I can think of.


----------



## Drew2k

DarinC said:


> Has anyone been able to determine what makes it so unnattractive for them to implement? Most companies would pay good money for market research to try to find out what features would make their product desireable. I would think they would have to be complete idiots to ignore the demand, or it would have to be really, really hard for them to do.


We don't know why they chose not to include DLB in the feature set, other than it interfered with other plans they had for the DVRs. We heard this from Earl long before the comments were made in the chat room about "something better" ...



> Or perhaps they are STILL just overwhelmed with trying to make the simple DVR functions work? I've only just "upgraded" from an HR10 a couple weeks ago, and haven't really put it through it's paces yet. But I've already discovered that a series recording I set up ended up recording five of the same episode. Hopefully that was a fluke. But if that is an example of the type of reliability I can expect, I can see why DLB might be on the back burner. But never? :nono2:


We'd need to know a lot more about the program and the guide data available for the five recording, but I can say that in my experience when the DVR records something I didn't expect it to, or skips something I didn't expect it to, it comes down to the guide data and the series link settings.

I had a SL set for First Run and the source didn't flag new programs as First Run, so the DVR didn't record them. I changed the SL settings to Record Both (First Run and Repeat) and didn't have to worry about it again, other than to delete a program from the Playlist or To Do List if I knew I had seen it already.

I have another SL for "Beyond Tomorrow" set to Record Both, and I end up with multiple identical recordings (the same show) each week simply because the provider has NO guide data other than a generic description. There's no OAD, there's no episode title; nothing to distinguish one program from the next. So erring on the side of caution, assuming that each program is unique, the DVR records them all.

Bottom line for me is that if programs are missed or duplicates are recorded, that usually traces back to the service data, so I have to disagree that any engineers are overwhelmed and that they're still "struggling" to get the DVR to work properly - in my opinion it's very reliable. Why aren't the engineers working on DLB then? See previous response ... they have "something better" to work on!


----------



## ATARI

HarleyD said:


> According to Earl Bonovich, the truth is out there but anyone who knows it is forbidden to speak it.
> 
> Which implies that it was a decision born of corporate expediency. A decision that was made in DirecTV's best interest and not the customer's best interest, even at the expense of some of the customers it would seem.
> 
> Saying it was a deliberate decision and then suppressing the facts of the deliberation even in the face of very significant subscriber dissatisfaction really leads to no other conclusion I can think of.


Well stated.


----------



## DarinC

Drew2k said:


> I have another SL for "Beyond Tomorrow" set to Record Both, and I end up with multiple identical recordings (the same show) each week simply because the provider has NO guide data other than a generic description. There's no OAD, there's no episode title; nothing to distinguish one program from the next.


Well you've stumbled on the show I had a problem with.  I know the guide didn't have any specific episode information, but I thought each episode of each show had a unique ID field, rather than depending on the verbiage of the guide? Oh well, not worth getting this thread OT for.



> I have to disagree that any engineers are overwhelmed and that they're still "struggling" to get the DVR to work properly - in my opinion it's very reliable. Why aren't the engineers working on DLB then? See previous response ... they have "something better" to work on!


Perhaps, but DLB appears to be something of high demand. Since this "something better" seems to be taking such a long time, you would think they could have implemented DLB relatively simply to appease their customers in the mean time.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

HarleyD said:


> According to Earl Bonovich, the truth is out there but anyone who knows it is forbidden to speak it.
> 
> Which implies that it was a decision born of corporate expediency. A decision that was made in DirecTV's best interest and not the customer's best interest, even at the expense of some of the customers it would seem.
> 
> Saying it was a deliberate decision and then suppressing the facts of the deliberation even in the face of very significant subscriber dissatisfaction really leads to no other conclusion I can think of.


There are numerous other reasons that could be in play other than corporate expediency, and surprisingly enough not all of them are evil. Decisions are made in corporations all the time and the decision makers are bound by confidentiality.

I can only say that DIRECTV remains very customer-focussed, despite the fact that they haven't acted to your satisfaction on this issue.


----------



## MX727

How many here have mailed (not e-mailed) letters to The Office of the President, DirecTV?

I know I just sent a second round of letters this morning. If we want them to know, we have to tell them. I don't think the CSR's or this forum are enough to get it through their heads.

Anyway, I made it very clear in my current missive that, absent DLB or at least some news on DLB, come September I will no longer be a DirecTV customer. Maybe they don't care about my desires, but at least I've let them know why I'm leaving.


----------



## RCY

Stuart Sweet said:


> There are numerous other reasons that could be in play other than corporate expediency, and surprisingly enough not all of them are evil. Decisions are made in corporations all the time and the decision makers are bound by confidentiality.
> 
> I can only say that DIRECTV remains very customer-focussed, despite the fact that they haven't acted to your satisfaction on this issue.


Perhaps so, but DIRECTV invites conspiracy theories and speculation of their intent by stonewalling on DLB. If there is an "unspoken reason" why DLB isn't in the box, why not say it? Whatever the reason, there would be a brief uproar, then eventual acceptance. Those who find DLB a must have would leave, and the user community would be focused on what is in the box and how it could be improved without DLB.

DIRECTV can make this whole issue go away, and they know it.


----------



## jimb726

RCY said:


> Perhaps so, but DIRECTV invites conspiracy theories and speculation of their intent by stonewalling on DLB. If there is an "unspoken reason" why DLB isn't in the box, why not say it? Whatever the reason, there would be a brief uproar, then eventual acceptance. Those who find DLB a must have would leave, and the user community would be focused on what is in the box and how it could be improved without DLB.
> 
> DIRECTV can make this whole issue go away, and they know it.


But once again, you and everyone else are making a very dangerous assumption. That being that your position is held by the other 15,999,000 DirecTv subscribers. As important as the feature is to you, I, and the other folks on this particular thread, the logical part of my mind tells me that for many, many others this is not an issue. And at the end of the day if there are 100,000 people who claim they would leave if there is no DLB, how many really will? Just like the TiVo diehards that claimed they would never use the HR2X, once they got over it, the box is fine for them. I absolutely used the hell out of DLB, but since I havent had it for going on two years now, I have certainly learned to live without it. Doesnt mean I wont embrace it if it ever comes, but reality is reality.


----------



## RCY

jimb726 said:


> But once again, you and everyone else are making a very dangerous assumption. That being that your position is held by the other 15,999,000 DirecTv subscribers. As important as the feature is to you, I, and the other folks on this particular thread, the logical part of my mind tells me that for many, many others this is not an issue. And at the end of the day if there are 100,000 people who claim they would leave if there is no DLB, how many really will? Just like the TiVo diehards that claimed they would never use the HR2X, once they got over it, the box is fine for them. I absolutely used the hell out of DLB, but since I havent had it for going on two years now, I have certainly learned to live without it. Doesnt mean I wont embrace it if it ever comes, but reality is reality.


I'm not making any assumption in that regard at all.

If what you say is true, then there is absolutely no harm in DIRECTV saying that DLB is never coming and anyone who cares about DLB should just get over it.


----------



## say-what

RCY said:


> If what you say is true, then there is absolutely no harm in DIRECTV saying that DLB is never coming and anyone who cares about DLB should just get over it.


I think that's pretty much been the message that many beating the DLB dead horse fail to comprehend. DirecTV DVR's do not have DLB and, we've learned through the DirecTV grapevine that there are no plans for DLB.

But why do they need to make any announcement about features they're not implementing in their DVR's anyway? No one does this, every manufacturer and service provider focuses on what they have, not what they don't have. It really doesn't matter why they decided not to implement DLB, the fact of the matter is that they don't offer DLB as a feature and don't plan to offer DLB, but feel free to keep asking anyway - I guess.....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RCY said:


> Perhaps so, but DIRECTV invites conspiracy theories and speculation of their intent by stonewalling on DLB. If there is an "unspoken reason" why DLB isn't in the box, why not say it? Whatever the reason, there would be a brief uproar, then eventual acceptance. Those who find DLB a must have would leave, and the user community would be focused on what is in the box and how it could be improved without DLB.
> 
> DIRECTV can make this whole issue go away, and they know it.


Companies almost never justify their decisions in public. It's nothing new.

However, in DirecTVs case, people think it's somehow wrong and must be some kind of conspiracy.

Don't get me wrong, I miss DLB and have sent emails and letters. AAMOF, I compiled the list of DVRs and wrote one the letters that's in the beginning of the original DLB thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=629658&postcount=1

I upgraded to the HR20-700 in Jan '07 based on the fact that the original thread said there were working on implementing DLB. Needless to say I'm very dismayed with the outcome.

However, I just don't see any reason to create a grand conspiracy out of one feature.

Lets look at it from another direction.

I know four people who are annoyed about not having DLB but it never occurred to them to complain to Directv about just one feature.

Most who are upset about it will never let Directv know.

I really don't think Directv can be compelled to give us some reasons with just those of us in the online community complaining...a mere fraction of a percentage point of the total subscribers.

Until you can get people who are outside of the online community to complain, they're not going to say a word. Maybe not even then.

I've tried to get my friends involved but they can't be bothered to complain about one feature with everything else going on in their lives.

Even though it was a feature I had a reasonable expectation would be added, it was, never the less, a feature that I knew wasn't there to begin with. IMHO, just because they decided not to include it doesn't mean I'm owed an explanation.

Mike


----------



## RCY

say-what said:


> ...
> 
> But why do they need to make any announcement about features they're not implementing in their DVR's anyway? No one does this, every manufacturer and service provider focuses on what they have, not what they don't have. It really doesn't matter why they decided not to implement DLB, the fact of the matter is that they don't offer DLB as a feature and don't plan to offer DLB, but feel free to keep asking anyway - I guess.....


I'd think strictly as a PR thing for this particular issue. Any HR2x user that has a question about their DVR can google, find this site, and see a thread with thousands of comments about a function they knew nothing about before. Then they get educated on a function missing from their DVR.

It would be a simple matter to make an announcement to this forum. And then this discussion that many find so bothersome would just go away. D* could pass the info on to a respected employee who is known by a lot of folks here (maybe Earl?) and the info could be posted to the forum. Then the "dead horse" of DLB could be given a proper burial.


----------



## say-what

RCY said:


> I'd think strictly as a PR thing for this particular issue. Any HR2x user that has a question about their DVR can google, find this site, and see a thread with thousands of comments about a function they knew nothing about before. Then they get educated on a function missing from their DVR.
> 
> It would be a simple matter to make an announcement to this forum. And then this discussion that many find so bothersome would just go away.


Don't hold your breath.


> D* could pass the info on to a respected employee who is known by a lot of folks here (maybe Earl?) and the info could be posted to the forum. Then the "dead horse" of DLB could be given a proper burial.


Ummm, that info has been passed on many times, but apparently ignored. I've read many threads saying DLB is not comming, and the lastest word, which comes from DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual, is that while DLB can be done, they're working on "something better." http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127704 (see post 4 - I was on the chat that night and it's an accurate account)

There you go, no DLB in the works, but something else.


----------



## jimb726

RCY said:


> I'm not making any assumption in that regard at all.
> 
> If what you say is true, then there is absolutely no harm in DIRECTV saying that DLB is never coming and anyone who cares about DLB should just get over it.


Other than the fact that in the overall picture the number of people affected is minute compared to the subscriber base. Sure if they come out and make some announcement, it will placate maybe 500 people on this board? Maybe a 1000? Not even worth the effort to draw up the paperwork. I agree, I wish they would make an announcement, however I fear that if they did, the announcement would be "not gonna happen". In lieu of that I will continue to believe that the silence leaves the door open a crack that somewhere in the future they will be able to implement the feature.


----------



## RCY

say-what said:


> Don't hold your breath.Ummm, that info has been passed on many times, but apparently ignored. I've read many threads saying DLB is not comming, and the lastest word, which comes from DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual, is that while DLB can be done, they're working on "something better." http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127704 (see post 4 - I was on the chat that night and it's an accurate account)
> 
> There you go, no DLB in the works, but something else.


Let's just say that I've read several different intrepretations of that chat, and I've seen some opinions that disagree with your take on it. (I have no particular view on that chat, since I wasn't there.)

I'm not "holding my breath", "making assumptions", etc. Not a big deal either way for me, but I think D* could put a quick end to this never ending discussion.


----------



## James Long

DirecTV isn't continuing this thread ... nor are they killing it. They have a satellite business to run.

Isn't it obvious? DirecTV has decided not to implement DLB on the receiver. There is the answer in 10 words. The rest is why, why, why, why, why. And the simple answer ... no conspiracy needed ... is they have decided. It isn't a debate to be won or lost ... it is a decision they have made.

Or DirecTV hates you. Whatever makes you happy. 

If you don't like the decisions your TV provider makes there are some other options.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> <snip>
> Or DirecTV hates you. Whatever makes you happy.
> <snip>.


WHY....who told you....what have you heard? 

I agree...it is what it is. I don't think it's a dead issue though.

The "something" has to include functionality that is at least DLB-like. Otherwise, the "something better" statement doesn't make any sense.

I've been holding out hope for 18 months and I'm holding out for what ever is better. :grin:

Mike


----------



## DarinC

MicroBeta said:


> The "something" has to include functionality that is at least DLB-like. Otherwise, the "something better" statement doesn't make any sense.


I have yet to see anyone come up with an idea of what could better, and still LIKE DLB, but not DLB. For ME personally, I'd put MRV ahead of DLB as far as feature desirability, so *I* would say MRV is better than DLB. But I don't consider them to be related features. Some have suggested that perhaps the "better" thing is using a feed from another DVR as the source for a DLB. But that makes no sense to me... another DVR would just be another data source. So if they could use MRV to do DLB, then they could do DLB with a single unit. So that would still be DLB, they would just be delaying it until release for MRV. That doesn't really fit in to the whole "we aren't working on DLB" statement. UNLESS their intention is to restrict DLB to only being possible when fed from another DVR. But doesn't seem likely... people would see right through that, and know that it's not a technical limitation, but rather an attempt to push some into more mirroring fees.

I just can't imagine what would be "like" DLB, but isn't DLB.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DarinC said:


> I have yet to see anyone come up with an idea of what could better, and still LIKE DLB, but not DLB. For ME personally, I'd put MRV ahead of DLB as far as feature desirability, so *I* would say MRV is better than DLB. But I don't consider them to be related features. Some have suggested that perhaps the "better" thing is using a feed from another DVR as the source for a DLB. But that makes no sense to me... another DVR would just be another data source. So if they could use MRV to do DLB, then they could do DLB with a single unit. So that would still be DLB, they would just be delaying it until release for MRV. That doesn't really fit in to the whole "we aren't working on DLB" statement. UNLESS their intention is to restrict DLB to only being possible when fed from another DVR. But doesn't seem likely... people would see right through that, and know that it's not a technical limitation, but rather an attempt to push some into more mirroring fees.
> 
> I just can't imagine what would be "like" DLB, but isn't DLB.


It could be related if through MRV you could access a tuner on another DVR.

I'm just sayin' 

Mike


----------



## RCY

James Long said:


> ...
> 
> Or DirecTV hates you. Whatever makes you happy.
> 
> If you don't like the decisions your TV provider makes there are some other options.


Sorry if I offended you...


----------



## DarinC

MicroBeta said:


> It could be related if through MRV you could access a tuner on another DVR.


Yeah, but that's still DLB. Even if the other buffer is from another DVR. I just don't see how they could say they aren't working on it, if that were what they meant. Everything you would have to do to enable DLB on a single machine, you would still have to do if you did it with two. BUT, there'd be lots of additional headaches they'd have to deal with when using a tuner in a second DVR vs. the second tuner in the local DVR. MRV is conceptually fairly simple... a second DVR is just another data source. But to do DLB via MRV, you have to implement a means for controlling the remote unit, not just accessing it's data. What if you decide to use a remote DVR for DLB, but someone in the other room is watching live tv? Or what if someone walks up to the remote DVR while you're buffering on that DVR in the background, and wipes out your buffer? Do they then need to implement a system of confirmation screens like "someone in another room wants to change your channel, is that ok?" If so, then what if the person in the remote room isn't watching TV any more, and can't respond to the confirmation? Does there need to be a time-out? Do we then end up in a situation where every time we try to change change channels, we have to wait for a time-out for someone to answer, who isn't even there any more? What if you are buffering on another DVR, then it gets to a situation where it needs both tuners for scheduled recordings. Does it need to broadcast a confirmation to networked DVRs in case someone is still interested in that tuner's buffer?

Doing DLB via MRV is opening a HUGE can of worms. If after two years, they can't manage implementing DLB in a single local machine, there's no way they're ready to tackle something like this.

Taken at face value, I think "we're working on something better" must mean "we're working on something better than DLB that has nothing to do with DLB", as in, we are focusing our resources on something completely different. I just can't imagine what would be better, practical, related to DLB, but not DLB. Hopefully that means they're working hard on MRV.


----------



## dennisj00

I guess the part I don't understand is the cavelier attitude of "you don't need DLB - get over it". 

It's virtually the only dual-tuner DVR on the market without DLB.

It's the ONLY HD DVR available from D*.

It's almost like your cell-phone carrier (with a multi-month contract) says "here's your ONLY choice of a new spiffy phone with lots of new features (and MORE to come)" but after you sign the contract you find it doesn't send text messages - you don't need text capability! (and by the way, it drops a lot of calls!)

What would you do?

The feature creep on the HR2x is obvious - and we're still waiting on something better. I'm still waiting on being able to show someone Media Sharing that works!


----------



## raott

RCY said:


> Let's just say that I've read several different intrepretations of that chat, and I've seen some opinions that disagree with your take on it. (I have no particular view on that chat, since I wasn't there.)
> 
> I'm not "holding my breath", "making assumptions", etc. Not a big deal either way for me, but I think D* could put a quick end to this never ending discussion.


Isn't "movies now" using the spare tuner to download the movies? If the other tuner is being utilized for that, then DLB isn't possible while the movies are being downloaded.

I pray that $4.99 movies that expire in 24hours isn't the "something better" than DLB.

But, then again, these are the same guys that thought the two-push guide was a good idea so who knows.


----------



## DarinC

raott said:


> Isn't "movies now" using the spare tuner to download the movies? If the other tuner is being utilized for that, then DLB isn't possible while the movies are being downloaded.


That wasn't an issue with the HR10, so there's no reason for that to be an issue with the HR2x. Movies Now does not need to stream in real time from beginning to end. It's downloaded via satellite as your tuners are available. That means you might get pieces of a movie here, and pieces there, as time permits. If you haven't used your box in a while, it's probably safe to assume you aren't using the buffers, and it's ok to change one of the tuners. With the HR10, I believe most of that was downloaded at night.


----------



## puffnstuff

DarinC said:


> That wasn't an issue with the HR10, so there's no reason for that to be an issue with the HR2x. Movies Now does not need to stream in real time from beginning to end. It's downloaded via satellite as your tuners are available. That means you might get pieces of a movie here, and pieces there, as time permits. If you haven't used your box in a while, it's probably safe to assume you aren't using the buffers, and it's ok to change one of the tuners. With the HR10, I believe most of that was downloaded at night.


You are correct , it's been confirmed in this thread many , many times before . Somebody needs to make a list of things we do and don't know about DLB . That way we can stop people from speculating the same things ( that we already know ) over and over . It's like nobody reads anything but the last page .


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> The only thing I can find in my notes from that chat session is "DLB could be done, we have something better coming".
> 
> Mike


So was that chat only a one time thing? He needs to tell us a little more and when we will see something live. WHEN IS THE NEXT CHAT?


----------



## Que

Flyrx7 said:


> Honestly, IMHO, the people that need to come to terms is Directv.
> If they honestly *don't* plan to do DLB, whether its something better or just plain old DLB, then that truly has to be, again, my opinion, one of the stupidest decisions ever.
> 
> That leads me to believe that DLB *will* happen eventually, because I find it very hard to believe that D* could be so wrong in their thinking to not do DLB. That just doesn't compute.


++++

In the end they will HAVE TO do it. It's on every other DVR out there......but not there own!


----------



## Que

mfaine said:


> Former Comcast customer here who misses DLB. Being new, I didn't know that there was a time when it required more than one button press to access the guide.
> 
> I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved in being vocal on the guide issue, and also those who are speaking up now about the DLB issue.


:welcome_s to the fourm mfaine!



> If you feel strongly about DLB. Please copy and print this letter. Make sure to include your account number and name.
> 
> Attention: President, D*
> 
> I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.
> 
> I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.
> 
> Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.
> 
> Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.
> 
> I'm writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.
> 
> I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV's plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.
> 
> Thank you for your time,
> 
> [Letter #2]
> 
> Dear Sir,
> 
> I am writing in regard to DirecTV's High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.
> 
> As I'm sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a "work around" with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV's priority list.
> 
> Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.
> 
> The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn't it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.
> 
> While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.
> 
> 1. Dish Network - ViP622
> 2. Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
> 3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
> 4. MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
> 5. CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
> 6. CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
> 7. FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)
> 8. AT&T - allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.
> 
> Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mail to:
> 
> Office of the President
> DIRECTV, Inc.
> P.O. Box 6550
> Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


----------



## ATARI

Que said:


> So was that chat only a one time thing? He needs to tell us a little more and when we will see something live. WHEN IS THE NEXT CHAT?


IIRC -- Earl had said that when there is a next chat with a D* rep, it will not be announced until just before the chat begins.


----------



## Que

MX727 said:


> How many here have mailed (not e-mailed) letters to The Office of the President, DirecTV?
> 
> I know I just sent a second round of letters this morning. If we want them to know, we have to tell them. I don't think the CSR's or this forum are enough to get it through their heads.
> 
> Anyway, I made it very clear in my current missive that, absent DLB or at least some news on DLB, come September I will no longer be a DirecTV customer. Maybe they don't care about my desires, but at least I've let them know why I'm leaving.


Nice! I try send them out about every other month. I looked into getting Charter but...I'll wait a little longer before going that route. If D* DVR plus line ever got DLB, I'm sure you would see a lot more upgrades to the new DVR.


----------



## MX727

I'm looking forward to their response. 

They did call to offer the free upgrade the same day I dropped the letters in the mail. As long as it doesn't change my commitment, I'm going to take them up on it. I'll try the boxes until September. Then they'll have even more equipment to take back.


----------



## Lord Vader

It _will _ change your commitment. If you accept their free upgrade, you'll have to commit to a 2-year contract.


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> Nice! I try send them out about every other month. I looked into getting Charter but...I'll wait a little longer before going that route. If D* DVR plus line ever got DLB, I'm sure you would see a lot more upgrades to the new DVR.


You know .. I like DLB and I'll be happy when it comes .. HOWEVER .. folks are upgrading because they want HD .. DLB may bring out a few stalwarts but I do believe you are using the term "a lot" a bit too loosely IMHO.

What I haven't seen is a mass exodus BECAUSE there isn't DLB. That would be the tell-tale sign that it's a must-have feature. Really, it's a nice-to-have feature and I believe that DIRECTV really sees it for what it is.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> What I haven't seen is a mass exodus BECAUSE there isn't DLB. That would be the tell-tale sign that it's a must-have feature. Really, it's a nice-to-have feature and I believe that DIRECTV really sees it for what it is.


Perhaps so. But the availabilty of DLB in other DVRs indicates that it is a feature that some think important.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RCY said:


> Perhaps so. But the availabilty of DLB in other DVRs indicates that it is a feature that some think important.


No one every questioned that - you are right.

The thing Doug (correctly) brought up is that when advocates uses terms like "alot of people" or "most people"...it is anecdotal, not hard fact.

I'm sure there will certainly be a fair number of folks that will welcome some kind of "DLB-like" capabilities when they appear.


----------



## DarinC

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The thing Doug (correctly) brought up is that when advocates uses terms like "alot of people" or "most people"...it is anecdotal, not hard fact.


Ok, what if you say 75% of people polled want DLB?


----------



## Dr. Booda

DarinC said:


> Ok, what if you say 75% of people polled want DLB?


Is 75% a lot?


----------



## DarinC

Well, it only takes 47.87% to win an election.


----------



## EricJRW

As a new HR21 owner, and a first time DVR "owner", I don't know what I'm missing...

I can see how it would be nice not to have to record a program in order to be able to switch between 2 _buffered_ channels, so I would use it if I had it (I guess each time you change channels, the last 2 channels would be the ones that are buffered?).

I've waited awhile before voting, just because the HR21 was new and I wanted to get used to it...

So there you have it, a new DVR owner perspective... Maybe this plays into D*'s decision process on which features to develop?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

DarinC said:


> Ok, what if you say 75% of people polled want DLB?


Then I would say that 1125 people, who may or may not comprise a statistically valid sample of the roughly 18 million DIRECTV subscribers and their families (who knows how many people that is) want DLB. I do not think the data lend themselves to more interpretation than that.

Even if you limit the group to only DVR households, that's something like 300,000 at this point. I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


----------



## Dr. Booda

DarinC said:


> Well, it only takes 47.87% to win an election.


True, I think that most people would say that 75% is more than 47.87%.


----------



## James Long

DarinC said:


> Well, it only takes 47.87% to win an election.


It depends on the election and who is voting. We have not had 100% voter turnout in any national election you may or may not be referring to. We have not had 100% turnout in the polls here about DLB. You could "win" an election with a lot less than "48.87%" ... you could even have 75% of actual voters support something and still not reach "48.87%" of eligible voters. It all depends on your statistical base.

As for DLB it isn't an election ... it is a decision made by DirecTV. We could have 100% of all eligible voters vote for DLB and it would not make a difference.


----------



## veryoldschool

EricJRW said:


> As a new HR21 owner, and a first time DVR "owner", I don't know what I'm missing...


Doug was the first to be able to have this make any sense to me [after two years].
Since I'm not a big "ball fan", it didn't seem like "an issue" that recording wouldn't resolve.

For someone [like me] to "get it", you need to realize ball scores from other games will be shown during "a game". Knowing the outcome of a game before you watch it, can cause a loss of interest.

Think of it as watching a "who done it" mystery and recording a second at the same time. Before you watch the recording, the one you're watching reports "the butler did it" for the show you're recording.
Is the recording going to be as much fun to watch now?

While I don't miss DLB, I now can understand why some do.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Stuart Sweet said:


> Then I would say that 1125 people, who may or may not comprise a statistically valid sample of the roughly 18 million DIRECTV subscribers and their families (who knows how many people that is) want DLB. I do not think the data lend themselves to more interpretation than that.
> 
> Even if you limit the group to only DVR households, that's something like 300,000 at this point. I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


Add to that the fact that the respondents in this poll are, for the most part, 'tech heads'.... intimate with the ins and outs of the DVR they're using, and it further "muddies the waters" as to how this poll plays out in the big picture.

I'm no statistician, but when I look at the population of this board, I don't believe that we would accurately represent the "general population" of DirecTV. Just my opinion, FWIW... 

I think that, given how responsive DirecTV has been to some of the other 'Wish List Requests'.... if this poll was representative of the customer base as a whole, I think we would have seen some movement on DLB by now.

Not to suggest that it's completely unimportant, or "nobody wants it".... I just think that DirecTV must think (or know) that DLB is, on the whole, not a dealbreaker feature for the general population. Admittedly, I would use DLB quite a bit during the hockey season if it were active, but it's not a dealbreaker for me...


----------



## MX727

Lord Vader said:


> It _will _ change your commitment. If you accept their free upgrade, you'll have to commit to a 2-year contract.


Not according to this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=131774

In any case, I postponed the appointment. I decided it just isn't worth it too me, especially since I would have to run more coax to have both the HR2X and the HR10's at each TV.


----------



## Doug Brott

I don't think that there is any doubt that DLB is a nice to have feature .. clearly the numbers here show that. As for "Must Have?" We should know more in a few months.

Personally, the HD trumps everything else (except maybe the DVR part .. those two are really close) .. So while DLB may be nice to have, it's certainly not a must have in my house.


----------



## veryoldschool

Doug Brott said:


> So while DLB may be nice to have, it's certainly not a must have in my house.


But a HDMI switch just might be. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Dr. Booda said:


> Is 75% a lot?


*"75% of those who took the time to vote out of the 18 Million who are users and 1 million DVR customers"* is an awfully long description...but far more accurate.


----------



## Doug Brott

veryoldschool said:


> But a HDMI switch just might be. :lol:


----------



## DarinC

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


And I would agree. But even if the poll is _significantly_ off... let's say only 38% want DLB. That is still a pretty big number, relatively speaking. What percentage of the general population would you expect care about being able to access media from their PCs on their DVRs? That's a pretty big project to undertake... I would think more complex than putting a buffer on both tuners as opposed to one. Just like the channels a provider carries, each one individually may appeal to a limited audience, percentage wise. But if you can provide something to make you more attractive than the competition, even if only to a small percentage of potential customers, then it's generally worth investigating. In this case, it's even more important, because almost all of the competition has it. A new user like Eric is not going to know what he's missing, but to someone coming from Comcast, Dish, or even an older DirecTV box, it's a missing feature that takes the hardware down a notch compared to the competition.

The thing I'm simply very curious to understand is: what about DLB is so difficult for them to implement in this platform that causes them to not pursue it? Clearly the interest is there. I know I may not ever find out, but it still is very odd to me. :shrug:


----------



## beer_geek

Stuart Sweet said:


> Then I would say that 1125 people, who may or may not comprise a statistically valid sample of the roughly 18 million DIRECTV subscribers and their families (who knows how many people that is) want DLB. I do not think the data lend themselves to more interpretation than that.
> 
> Even if you limit the group to only DVR households, that's something like 300,000 at this point. I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


Are you then saying that having the"Wish List" is a complete waste of time because only a very select few want those features?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

beer_geek said:


> Are you then saying that having the"Wish List" is a complete waste of time because only a very select few want those features?


I heard no one say that....only how statistics are used.


----------



## Flyrx7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *"75% of those who took the time to vote out of the 18 Million who are users and 1 million DVR customers"* is an awfully long description...but far more accurate.


I believe the original post was "75% of those polled".
Kind of like "4 out of 5 dentist prefer Trident".

All polls will be biased based on the group of people in the poll.
Stats in this case could be considered basically worthless, as those opposed will simply say that the group in the poll don't represent an average user.
Based on that (faulty?) assumption, there really can't be an accurate poll unless directv made one available to all of there DVR users, and I'm fairly sure that won't happen.

I for one agree that the poll numbers here should represent the average DVR users, afterall, even those opposed that have voted, your numbers are reflected too, right? You too are a member of the "tech forum", no? Either way, since there is no other good sampling of the public opinion on DLB other than this forum and maybe some others, what else are we to base numbers on? And don't say the average Joe doesn't want DLB. Just because they don't participate in public forum discussions or whatnot. Their votes don't really count anyway, as they aren't the ones that are going to make the noise on a public forum. The people that actually make the noise are the only ones going to be heard, whether it's for or against. So that pretty much leaves this forum.

At least I can say, without any speculation, that 75% +/- of those polled on this site agree that DLB is a worthwhile feature. 
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## beer_geek

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I heard no one say that....only how statistics are used.


What's being said is DLB isn't that important because the numbers are not significant. Correct?

Therefore nothing on the Wish List is important because anything being asked for on this board is from an insignificant number of subscribers. Also correct?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

beer_geek said:


> Are you then saying that having the"Wish List" is a complete waste of time because only a very select few want those features?


I don't think Stuart was suggesting that at all. Nor do I think he was suggesting that this poll is a complete waste of time.

I think it was just putting into perspective the fact that this poll may (or may not) be statistically representative of the greater population. So to make claims about the entire customer base, based solely on this poll, is nothing more than conjecture.

Clearly "alot" of people in the population of this forum want DLB. How that translates into the greater population of 18 million subscribers is anyone's guess.

75% of people on this board want DLB. That's established. Some un-established number of poeple outside of this board want DLB. That number could be 1. It could be 10 million. We just have no way of knowing, and if the results of this poll might be questionable statistically, then making any assumptions as to how this plays out in the greater population is a real stretch.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Sharkie, you get a most deserved "+1" for that.


----------



## beer_geek

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't think Stuart was suggesting that at all. Nor do I think he was suggesting that this poll is a complete waste of time.
> 
> I think it was just putting into perspective the fact that this poll may (or may not) be statistically representative of the greater population. So to make claims about the entire customer base, based solely on this poll, is nothing more than conjecture.
> 
> Clearly "alot" of people in the population of this forum want DLB. How that translates into the greater population of 18 million subscribers is anyone's guess.
> 
> 75% of people on this board want DLB. That's established. Some un-established number of poeple outside of this board want DLB. That number could be 1. It could be 10 million. We just have no way of knowing, and if the results of this poll might be questionable statistically, then making any assumptions as to how this plays out in the greater population is a real stretch.


And the same can be said for the "Wish List". Why do we see this arguement on DLB threads but not on the "Wish List"?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Because the Wish List is presented to DIRECTV as a list of features we have deemed worthy of their consideration. We do not devote 2,000-post threads to each one, we simply say, here are some ideas you may not have thought of. 

To DLB or not to DLB is a valid point of discussion. However, to presume facts not in evidence, such as "everyone wants DLB" or "DLB is easy to implement" is different from simply stating your preference.


----------



## bonscott87

beer_geek said:


> And the same can be said for the "Wish List". Why do we see this arguement on DLB threads but not on the "Wish List"?


Probably because the search and autorecord search on the DirecTV DVR has improved and is in many ways better then the Tivo Wishlist (and of course lacks in some ways).

There isn't anything I can't do with a DVR+ search that I could do with a Tivo wishlist (in the ways I use it of course). And I'd say that is the case with most people. More advanced wishlists that some people use certainly can't be recreated of course.

The biggest complaint really has always been autorecording on channels you don't get and that has been largely fixed (but not totally). And I've never seen near daily threads clamoring for the Tivo wishlist like DLB. Wishlist is just much farther down on people's list of must haves.


----------



## veryoldschool

Sharkie_Fan said:


> 75% of people on this board want DLB. That's established. Some un-established number of poeple outside of this board want DLB. That number could be 1. It could be 10 million. We just have no way of knowing, and if the results of this poll might be questionable statistically, then making any assumptions as to how this plays out in the greater population is a real stretch.


Not to beat a dead horse, but 75% of "only" those that voted, not the forum/board.


----------



## raott

Stuart Sweet said:


> To DLB or not to DLB is a valid point of discussion.


I flat out do not understand, and have never understood, why anyone would argue against the DVR having as many features as possible.

What possible, logical argument would someone make to not have DLB?

And no, the argument "Having DLB stresses me out" once put forth by one of our members, is not logical.


----------



## DarinC

Sharkie_Fan said:


> ... if the results of this poll might be questionable statistically, then making any assumptions as to how this plays out in the greater population is a real stretch.


So let's just stick with the facts:

1. We don't know the percentage of the general population that would consider DLB an important feature.

2. We know that the vast majority of the competition offers DVRs with DLB.

3. We know that 75% of a sub-set of DirecTV customers (best labeled as enthusiasts) consider DLB an important feature.

If you were a person in a position in DirecTV to make decisions on the goals of the hardware, and were given this information, would you dismiss it since there's no proof that it holds value to the greater population?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

beer_geek said:


> And the same can be said for the "Wish List". Why do we see this arguement on DLB threads but not on the "Wish List"?


I think we see this argument on DLB and not the Wish List items because - for _whatever_ reason - DLB is a polarizing issue.

The other wish list items are, for the most part, at least in my opinion, 'polish'. Enhancements. Fluff. Call them what you will.

DLB, to those who would use it, is more than fluff, it's a core part of the way they use a DVR.

To many of those who do not use DLB, it's hard to fathom what the 'big deal is'.

And then there are those of us in the middle who have used DLB in the past, and who would use it in the future, but are indifferent as to whether it gets implemented on the HR2x platform.

Clearly, based on this poll, the people in these forums think DLB is a BIG feature. For that reason, it gets alot of play.... and, it gets alot of very "enthusiastic" posters on both sides of the aisle.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I realize this is anecdotal but my point is that everyone I know who had TiVo misses DLB. Nobody knew what it was called but knew they could do it.

If I know some people who have had TiVo and miss DLB then most of you know someone also.

Now, I think it may be possible to infer how representative this poll is by how it relates to those we know who aren't online like we are and wouldn't complain about a single missing feature (other than to call tech support and ask how to change turners). 

I think in the end you could make a stronger argument for the majority of viewers "want/would use if there", then you could for dismissing the poll completely. 

Even though the four people I know who had TiVo through Directv want DLB back(effectively 100%), I don't think the number is 75%.

I think it's >50%, maybe as high as 60%.

Ok, bring it on....:grin: 

Mike


----------



## DarinC

bonscott87 said:


> Probably because the search and autorecord search on the DirecTV DVR has improved and is in many ways better then the Tivo Wishlist (and of course lacks in some ways).


I think you're confusing a TiVo Wishlist, with a feature wish list. But yeah, now that you mention it, why no Wishlist!!! Long live the TiVo Wishlist!!!!!


----------



## beer_geek

bonscott87 said:


> Probably because the search and autorecord search on the DirecTV DVR has improved and is in many ways better then the Tivo Wishlist (and of course lacks in some ways).
> 
> There isn't anything I can't do with a DVR+ search that I could do with a Tivo wishlist (in the ways I use it of course). And I'd say that is the case with most people. More advanced wishlists that some people use certainly can't be recreated of course.
> 
> The biggest complaint really has always been autorecording on channels you don't get and that has been largely fixed (but not totally). And I've never seen near daily threads clamoring for the Tivo wishlist like DLB. Wishlist is just much farther down on people's list of must haves.


Wish list as in HR20/HR21 Wish List, V3
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93995


----------



## Flyrx7

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I think it was just putting into perspective the fact that this poll may (or may not) be statistically representative of the greater population. So to make claims about the entire customer base, based solely on this poll, is nothing more than conjecture.


True, it almost goes without saying that any poll may (or may not) be statistically representative of the greater population. So I'm not sure why that really has anything to do with this.

Fact of the matter is, there are enough people here on this forum that are willing to be vocal enough to not let this slide, regardless of affiliation.

I bet that if you polled 4 out of 5 pollsters, those results wouldn't mean squat to those that are opposed to the poll in the first place.

At least it keeps the conversation alive.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## hdtvfan0001

beer_geek said:


> What's being said is DLB isn't that important because the numbers are not significant. Correct?


Not correct.

What's being said is take any poll in the context of the number of respondents proportionate to the size of the audience and/or general population.

In other words...the polls are helpful in getting feedback and some general audience feedback...but they are neither representative nor proportionate to the overall user population.

The wish list is an entirely different beast. We have been all asked in the past, and continue to be asked, for feedback/suggestons as to how to make the product(s) better. That doesn't assure everything will be done, rather, it at least provides some level of ideas and ranking from those who care enough to vote.

So in one word - Perspective.


----------



## bonscott87

beer_geek said:


> Wish list as in HR20/HR21 Wish List, V3
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93995


My bad.


----------



## beer_geek

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In other words...the polls are helpful in getting feedback and some general audience feedback...but they are neither representative nor proportionate to the overall user population.


You can say that about any poll. Therefore, they're a waste of time.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

DarinC said:


> If you were a person in a position in DirecTV to make decisions on the goals of the hardware, and were given this information, would you dismiss it since there's no proof that it holds value to the greater population?


Depends on if I have other data that trumped this data.... 

BUT... to answer the question you posed... No, I wouldn't discount it. In my opinion, the size of the sample, and the nature of the population bring the data into _question_. They *do not invalidate it*. I don't think for one second that the 1100+ voters in this poll who are "pro-DLB" are the only 1100 DirecTV customers who care about this issue. I'm simply not comfortable with estimates of the greater demand for the feature based on this poll. That's all.

This poll is a piece of the puzzle, and needs to be weighed with whatever other data DirecTV has with regards to what their customers want.


----------



## Tom Robertson

beer_geek said:


> You can say that about any poll. Therefore, they're a waste of time.


"Don't look like no" waste of time to me. At 2,200+ posts in this thread, plus two other MAJOR threads, I think the poll has been very...interesting. 

Of course this thread is very statistically significant. Its the "statistically significant *of what*" that is crucial. (and hard to pin down correctly.) 

DIRECTV does realize there are a lot of users that are very interested in DLB. My term of "a lot" btw. Even if 1% of the 18M customers are correctly represented by the poll here, 75% of that 1% of 18M is still more people than I'd like to frustrate in a dark alley.... 

Granted, no mass exodus has been identified. Granted, there are other things more important to some/many/most people depending upon your point of view.

Yet, DIRECTV does listen to this group very closely. The people, to a man/woman, are very interested in the feedback of DBStalk'ers. Woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

beer_geek said:


> You can say that about any poll. Therefore, they're a waste of time.


A lawyer must try to twist my words to interpret things that way....but that's not what I said nor implied.


----------



## DarinC

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Depends on if I have other data that trumped this data....


And that, to me, is the big question mark. What could have possibly made them decide it wasn't worth persuing? Statistics are irrelevent actually, it's not like all the features in these things are the result of market research. A lot of it is brainstorming by those involved in the product development, building up a list of nice-to-haves, and determining what can be done, etc. It made the cut on the original DirecTV TiVos, it made the cut on competing dual tuner boxes. People talked about it for years at TCF as virtue of the DirecTV TiVos over the standalone models. What could possibly make it suddenly hard to implement, or no longer attractive? :shrug:


----------



## Flyrx7

raott said:


> I flat out do not understand, and have never understood, why anyone would argue against the DVR having as many features as possible.
> 
> What possible, logical argument would someone make to not have DLB?


#1- People playing "Devils Advocate" for the sake of debate.
#2- People stating that it may take away from the reliability of an already suspect machine.
#3- Company shills trying to brainwash us into thinking we don't need it. 
#4- People just looking for arguments.
#5- Because people that don't/won't use the feature don't understand why the people that want it so much are so boisterous, and thus try to talk us out of it for reasons all their own. (see #4)


Sharkie_Fan said:


> #6 - it's viewed as an "either/or" proposition versus another feature.


Not necessarily logical arguments per se, but I surely can't think of any other reasons. Maybe those that are opposed could give us their reasons.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

raott said:


> I flat out do not understand, and have never understood, why anyone would argue against the DVR having as many features as possible.
> 
> What possible, logical argument would someone make to not have DLB?


I suspect its not really a matter of *anyone* being *opposed*, rather, its various opinions as to where on a "wish list" or "enhancement candidate list" it falls.

As happens with all software development....if its in the top half of the list, it gets put in a project plan to deliver some time in the foreseeable future...if it's in the bottom half, it may never see the light of day.

Based on what a DirecTV associate shared in an online chat a few months back..."something similar to or even better than DLB" is on their radar...meaning it's on the top half of the to-do list....but as to where it is in terms of priorities... is another matter entirely.


----------



## DarinC

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on what a DirecTV associate shared in an online chat a few months back..."something similar to or even better than DLB" is on their radar...meaning it's on the top half of the to-do list....


Actually, I believe it was simply said they COULD do it, BUT they were working on something better. That doesn't even necessarily imply that what they are working on instead is even related to DLB. It could be a home shopping mix channel. 75% of Florida may be interested in that.


----------



## jahgreen

Flyrx7 said:


> #1- People playing "Devils Advocate" for the sake of debate.
> #2- People stating that it may take away from the reliability of an already suspect machine.
> #3- Company shills trying to brainwash us into thinking we don't need it.
> #4- People just looking for arguments.
> #5- Because people that don't/won't use the feature don't understand why the people that want it so much are so boisterous, and thus try to talk us out of it for reasons all their own. (see #4)
> 
> Not necessarily logical arguments per se, but I surely can't think of any other reasons. Maybe those that are opposed could give us their reasons.


I can't think of anyone (other than good 'ol BoltJames--whatever happened to him?) who is OPPOSED to DLB, per se. Maybe there are a couple. What I see, for the most part, are folks who don't see DLB as being of overriding importance, who can't understand the zeal of the true DLB supporters, and who want DirecTV to focus its resources on other things first.

I fall in the latter category. I don't miss DLB that much--except when I forget I don't have it and change the channel during a commercial, only to realize that I was about 15 minutes behind live and just lost a quarter hour of the show I was watching. 

EDIT: hdtvfan0001 beat me to this point. Obviously I agree with him.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Flyrx7 said:


> #1- People playing "Devils Advocate" for the sake of debate.
> #2- People stating that it may take away from the reliability of an already suspect machine.
> #3- Company shills trying to brainwash us into thinking we don't need it.
> #4- People just looking for arguments.
> #5- Because people that don't/won't use the feature don't understand why the people that want it so much are so boisterous, and thus try to talk us out of it for reasons all their own. (see #4)
> 
> Not necessarily logical arguments per se, but I surely can't think of any other reasons. Maybe those that are opposed could give us their reasons.


I think there are two other possibilities:

#1 - people who are indifferent, but involved in the discussion, get labelled as opposed.

And, the one I think is most common:
#2 - it's viewed as an "either/or" proposition versus another feature.

I've seen this comment from both sides of the aisle:
"Why are they spending time on feature X when they could have spent that time on DLB"

-or-

"Why spend time on DLB when clearly "everybody" (there's that phrase again...) wants feature X".

If it came down to DLB vs. MRV, I'm gonna choose MRV. And if DirecTV said "You can have one or the other", I'm gonna fight tooth and nail for MRV, at the expense of DLB (even though it is a feature I would use).

If implementing DLB did nothing to the time frame for the other features which are being worked on (Media Share, PC Viewing, MRV, etc, etc), then I don't have a problem with it being put on. If implementing DLB today mean't a 3 month delay in MRV, then I would be "opposed" to DLB.


----------



## DarinC

I agree that MRV > DLB. But it's still odd to me that DLB wasn't part of the original design.


----------



## jimb726

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I think there are two other possibilities:
> 
> #1 - people who are indifferent, but involved in the discussion, get labelled as opposed.
> 
> And, the one I think is most common:
> #2 - it's viewed as an "either/or" proposition versus another feature.
> 
> I've seen this comment from both sides of the aisle:
> "Why are they spending time on feature X when they could have spent that time on DLB"
> 
> -or-
> 
> "Why spend time on DLB when clearly "everybody" (there's that phrase again...) wants feature X".
> 
> If it came down to DLB vs. MRV, I'm gonna choose MRV. And if DirecTV said "You can have one or the other", I'm gonna fight tooth and nail for MRV, at the expense of DLB (even though it is a feature I would use).
> 
> If implementing DLB did nothing to the time frame for the other features which are being worked on (Media Share, PC Viewing, MRV, etc, etc), then I don't have a problem with it being put on. If implementing DLB today mean't a 3 month delay in MRV, then I would be "opposed" to DLB.


Very well said Sharkie. And I would have to say that your explanaition probably covers most if not all of the folks who might be seen as opposers. Heck if I recall even Bolt james said as much. He didnt want DLB messing with a machine that he was very happy with. I have gotten used to life without it, I would love to have it if and when it comes back, but not if were to delay a feature that I really wanted and as you say that would be MRV. Its all in the personas perception of what is important to them.


----------



## ATARI

Sharkie_Fan said:


> <snip>
> DLB, to those who would use it, is more than fluff, it's a core part of the way they use a DVR.
> <snip>


Give that man a cookie!!


----------



## ATARI

Editorial sidenote:

Not that I'm complaining, but it hasn't been a full week that this thread has been locked. I know because I put it on my calendar.


----------



## Flyrx7

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I think there are two other possibilities:
> 
> #1 - people who are indifferent, but involved in the discussion, get labelled as opposed.


So, basically in it for the sake of debate or argument (#1 and #4).



Sharkie_Fan said:


> And, the one I think is most common:
> #2 - it's viewed as an "either/or" proposition versus another feature.


I can agree with that assumption, (I'll even add it as #6 to my original post) even though that was not an option in the poll, "either/or" (maybe should have been). That still doesn't really make for a good reason for the sake of the DLB argument though, as it still speculative on something else unforseen, not to mention that it's completely off the topic of the poll and the thread.
But I do agree that is a major reason why this thread has garnered such reaction.

Maybe the next poll and 2k posts should be about if you are for or against, and at the cost of (maybe) "something better" . Or maybe D* can just do it and get it over with.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

ATARI said:


> Give that man a cookie!!


Could you make it some Girl Scout "Thin Mints".... those are my favorite 



Flyrx7 said:


> So, basically in it for the sake of debate or argument (#1 and #4).


Or just to be a part of the "process".... I think when discussing the "merits & uses" of DLB, those of us who have adjusted to life without DLB still have opinions that can add to the conversation, even though we may not see the feature as an important part of the platform.



Flyrx7 said:


> I can agree with that assumption, (I'll even add it as #6 to my original post) even though that was not an option in the poll, "either/or" (maybe should have been). That still doesn't really make for a good reason for the sake of the DLB argument though, as it still speculative on something else unforseen, not to mention that it's completely off the topic of the poll and the thread.
> But I do agree that is a major reason why this thread has garnered such reaction.
> 
> Maybe the next poll and 2k posts should be about if you are for or against, and at the cost of (maybe) "something better" . Or maybe D* can just do it and get it over with.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I think most of us "*know*" that it isn't an either/or proposition. And we know that development of one feature shouldn't _drasitcally_ impact the development of another if you have seperate teams working on the two features.... . But still, when things start to "heat up", I think we forget that and it becomes a "my feature vs. your feature" argument instead of a discussion on the merits of DLB and what reasons it may have been left out of the feature set of the HR2x.


----------



## dennisj00

jimb726 said:


> Very well said Sharkie. And I would have to say that your explanaition probably covers most if not all of the folks who might be seen as opposers. Heck if I recall even Bolt james said as much. He didnt want DLB messing with a machine that he was very happy with. I have gotten used to life without it, I would love to have it if and when it comes back, but not if were to delay a feature that I really wanted and as you say that would be MRV. Its all in the personas perception of what is important to them.


Don't forget his prime reason he didn't want DLB was 'it stressed him out' to have that choice!

Maybe there's still hope for DLB, as much as I want MRV, I'm not sure it trumps DLB.

And I'm not sure either will be here SOON.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Editorial sidenote:
> 
> Not that I'm complaining, but it hasn't been a full week that this thread has been locked. I know because I put it on my calendar.


 .. Time off for good behavior ..


----------



## Drew2k

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think that there is any doubt that DLB is a nice to have feature .. clearly the numbers here show that. As for "Must Have?" We should know more in a few months.
> 
> Personally, the HD trumps everything else (except maybe the DVR part .. those two are really close) .. So while DLB may be nice to have, it's certainly not a must have in my house.


Doug, could you clarify your comment about knowing more in a few months? Does this related to the HD expansion when D11 goes live? I'm guessing you're saying that more people will come to DIRECTV for the HD content over what features may or may not be in the hardware used to view the content ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> Doug, could you clarify your comment about knowing more in a few months? Does this related to the HD expansion when D11 goes live? I'm guessing you're saying that more people will come to DIRECTV for the HD content over what features may or may not be in the hardware used to view the content ...


2 year anniversary of the HR20 ..


----------



## Drew2k

Doug Brott said:


> 2 year anniversary of the HR20 ..


Ah. Those lovable commitments expire for many! Gotcha. 

Without hesitation, I can say that even though I want DLB, I will not leave DIRECTV when my commitment ends. Me likes what I see in HD and me likes me DVR too much to settle for less.


----------



## SPACEMAKER

The only time I even think about DLB is when this thread gets bumped. 

As more and more time passes since I cancelled Comcast, the less of an issue it becomes.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> .. Time off for good behavior ..


Even though my hands were shaking and I was sweating profusely, I resisted the urge to type 'D' 'L' 'B' for 6 six whole days


----------



## dcowboy7

i dont like em....its just more stuff to go wrong.


----------



## dieseladdict

I miss them. Even more now that my HR10 in the living room lost a power supply. I'm debating whether to put another one in it or concede that DirecTivo is dead and move on. 

I like the HR20 for most things. I commonly watch two shows while using the DLB to skip commericals. Its also great for some casual browsing for a few minutes. The workaround does function when you know what you are watching for the evening but its a PITA if you are just browsing a little and using the "other" tuner to do it.


----------



## luckydob

I would say that more people are interested in DLB than are interested in Media Share...but we got that one...IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.


----------



## raw121

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Add to that the fact that the respondents in this poll are, for the most part, 'tech heads'.... intimate with the ins and outs of the DVR they're using, and it further "muddies the waters" as to how this poll plays out in the big picture.
> 
> I'm no statistician, but when I look at the population of this board, I don't believe that we would accurately represent the "general population" of DirecTV. Just my opinion, FWIW...


I am not convinced, in the google era, that this forum is only visited by high end techie types. This search has over 19,000 hits and uses the most basic terms i could think of; hr20, swap or change, tuners. I recall that there were several post in this thread or the old one by a statistician who argued that these polls were valid samples.

Now if you want to talk about a feature that would skew to the "techno-geek" that would be MRV. You need multiple HR2Xs, and probably a pretty decent network. How many average users have multiple HD receivers and a stable network, let alone enough knowledge to fight through any firewall/network gotchas?

If you had to pick which one to do first, DLB or MRV, it seems like is should be orders of magnitude simpler to implement DLB than MRV. It would also seem that for MRV to work there has to be some kind of dual tuner swapping, so DLB could be a nice stepping stone. Another plus to doing DLB first would be the fact that every owner of a HR2X with both tuners connected would be able to take advantage of DLB. I have no idea how many subscribers have multiple HR2Xs that are networked but I would think it is not anywhere close to 100% of subscribers with HR2Xs.


----------



## lman

Doug Brott said:


> You know .. I like DLB and I'll be happy when it comes .. HOWEVER .. folks are upgrading because they want HD .. DLB may bring out a few stalwarts but I do believe you are using the term "a lot" a bit too loosely IMHO.
> 
> What I haven't seen is a mass exodus BECAUSE there isn't DLB. That would be the tell-tale sign that it's a must-have feature. Really, it's a nice-to-have feature and I believe that DIRECTV really sees it for what it is.


That's exactly why there is a 2 year commitment. You won't see an exodus until the commitments expire. I'm waiting until my commitment expires to make a change.


----------



## beer_geek

I don't think there will be a "mass exodus" when committments expire and the evidence is in this thread. Many of the pro-DLB crowd have used the "great for sports". "We'll see what happens when football starts." etc. arguments. DLB or no DLB, I'm not going anywhere unless I can get the Sunday Ticket. It's the reason I became a customer in the first place.

It all comes down to content. If you level the content playing field, then and only then, would you see people switch providers over the hardware. Think about it, why do existing customers move to the HR2x? You have to if you want the mpeg4 content.


----------



## beer_geek

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A lawyer must try to twist my words to interpret things that way....but that's not what I said nor implied.


I'd respond but I've been told to stop.


----------



## DarinC

beer_geek said:


> It all comes down to content. If you level the content playing field, then and only then, would you see people switch providers over the hardware.


That pretty much comes down to a comment I made in one of the TiVo threads... at one point in time, DirecTV's HD was suffering (quantity and quality) due to bandwidth constraints, but many people stuck with it because the other options weren't a significant enough improvement to counter the fact that they'd be taking a definite step down in hardware. No other provider could touch the experience that a user got from DirecTV, due to their hardware superiority. Now, DirecTV has lost the edge in hardware, but has gained it content. My perception at this point is the hardware options are relativley level (competing hardware has caught up, while DirecTV has been working to get their current hardware up to the same level they had with the TiVo platform). Some things about the HR2x are better, some are worse, when comparing to the old TiVos as well as when comparing to competitors boxes. So in the end, the hardware is a wash, and the content is better, so people still won't leave. They might be bitter because they they can't have superior hardware AND content, but there's no major benefit in going elsewhere.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

beer_geek said:


> I'd respond but I've been told to stop.


Your next brew is on me.


----------



## puffnstuff

dcowboy7 said:


> i dont like em....its just more stuff to go wrong.


Ok , what do you base this on ? You don't even know if it would cause problems , so you make wild statements :nono: It never caused any problems on my tivo's .


----------



## TheRatPatrol

luckydob said:


> I would say that more people are interested in DLB than are interested in Media Share...but we got that one...IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.


I'm more interested in more HD channels.


----------



## dcowboy7

puffnstuff said:


> Ok , what do you base this on ? You don't even know if it would cause problems , so you make wild statements :nono: It never caused any problems on my tivo's .


its a joke....here's $20 go buy a sense of humour. :grin:


----------



## bonscott87

lman said:


> That's exactly why there is a 2 year commitment. You won't see an exodus until the commitments expire. I'm waiting until my commitment expires to make a change.


As has been posted, commitments for non Tivo DVRs (the R15) have been expiring for more then a year now. Yet DirecTV has been growing by record numbers. DLB, while an important feature for some, just isn't a big driving force behind people's choice of provider. You gotta also remember that most people getting a DVR in the past 3 years with DirecTV has never had a DVR before, thus never had a Tivo, thus never had DLB in the first place. Thus they aren't "missing anything". There are far more DirecTV DVRs in use now then there were DirecTivo's at their peak. Over 500K DirecTivos went dark last fiscal year. Yet DirecTV keeps on growing faster then they have for years. Obviously DLB isn't a big deal for the general population. If it is to you then good luck and I hope you have a good cable of FIOS option.

One also needs to realize that there are under 4 million Tivo's in use, more then half are DirecTivo's still out there. Tivo has less then 10% of the DVR market. Tivo doesn't drive the DVR market anymore and hasn't for some time.


----------



## Flyrx7

raott said:


> What possible, logical argument would someone make to not have DLB?


While not necessarily all arguments against DLB, the most likely reasons for arguments or posts within this thread.

#1- People playing "Devils Advocate" for the sake of debate.
#2- People stating that it may take away from the reliability of an already suspect machine.
#3- Company shills trying to brainwash us into thinking we don't need it. 
#4- People just looking for arguments.
#5- Because people that don't/won't use the feature don't understand why the people that want it so much are so boisterous, and thus try to talk us out of it for reasons all their own. (see #4)
#6- It's viewed as an "either/or" proposition versus another feature. (Originally Posted by Sharkie_Fan)
#7- Trolls and Post-Whores

Still not any logical arguments against, IMHO.


----------



## puffnstuff

dcowboy7 said:


> its a joke....here's $20 go buy a sense of humour. :grin:


Naw , a case of beer for me . I just didn't see it as a joke since people say the same thing all the time . Also your avatar didn't help either


----------



## tigerlily1

I've been checking out this forum ever since I upgraded to the HR21-700 from my series 2 DirecTivo back in November '07 and tried to switch tuners and couldn't. 

I keep thinking that I'll get over not having DLB and a UI as flawless as the Tivo unit, but unfortunately not a day goes by without me wishing I'd never upgraded. I don't really want to go to cable as I love DirecTV and have been with them for 5 years and initially went with them because of the DirectTivo unit. 

I could go on venting 8 months of frustration, but I won't...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tigerlily1 said:


> I've been checking out this forum ever since I upgraded to the HR21-700 from my series 2 DirecTivo back in November '07 and tried to switch tuners and couldn't.
> 
> I keep thinking that I'll get over not having DLB and a UI as flawless as the Tivo unit, but unfortunately not a day goes by without me wishing I'd never upgraded. I don't really want to go to cable as I love DirecTV and have been with them for 5 years and initially went with them because of the DirectTivo unit.
> 
> I could go on venting 8 months of frustration, but I won't...


Thanks for sharing...but...I noticed you had one post in 8 months of frustration....how bad can it be? 

I made the same transition you did (now with 2 HR20-700's and 1 Hr21-200 much further ago) and haven't looked back....life is sooooo much better with the Tivobox gone. So I guess we disagree on that.

If you read thorugh the thread....you already know DLB in the same form is not going to happen in the forseeable future. There is "somthing better" on their radar, but no deliver date posted anywhere.


----------



## tigerlily1

I'm shy so that's why I haven't posted anything until now. I've seen how long this this thread has been running (and know that DLB doesn't seem likely), so I've haven't had any real reason to post plus all of my pet peeves have been brought up by others. 

The real reason for me to post (which I forgot to add) was somebody mentioning that this was forum visited by mainly "high tech types". I'm came to dbs because of my frustration with the HR21. I now check it out everyday because I'm interested to see how things are going for other people.


----------



## DarinC

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for sharing...but...I noticed you had one post in 8 months of frustration....how bad can it be?
> 
> I made the same transition you did ... I guess we disagree on that.


You have 6k+ posts expressing how absolutely smitten you are with DirecTV. Nothing wrong with letting someone else spend just one to express their frustration.



> DLB in the same form is not going to happen in the forseeable future. There is "somthing better" on their radar


I'm not sure I'd keep repeating this in a way that infers that "something better" has anything to do with DLB unless and until that is confirmed. It may not be the message the rep intended to convey.


----------



## Fly Navy

I am all for DLB on the HR2X, but another feature I'd like to see is picture-in-picture. I would think that would be an easy feature to add to the software. You already have two sources. Has this been brought up before?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DarinC said:


> You have 6k+ posts expressing how absolutely smitten you are with DirecTV. Nothing wrong with letting someone else spend just one to express their frustration.


I totaly agree - there's nothing wrong at all with his views...it was a legitimate observation as to how severe the "issue" is, when only one post on it is made in 8 months.

As for your "sideways" comment as to what I am "smitten" about, the only thing I am "smitten about" is my spouse. 

As for DirecTV, if you actually read all my posts (which would be a total waste of time for any person to do, of course)...you would indeed find I have not hesitated to point out pros *and* cons on a number of fronts when appropriate. Yes, as a long-time customer, that would seem to indicate I prefer them as a provider...but I have no ties, no personal or business allegiences to them like any other regular customer.

So let's not get sidetracked with any personal stuff and get things :backtotop .

*DLB is the topic at hand.*


----------



## dennisj00

bonscott87 said:


> As has been posted, commitments for non Tivo DVRs (the R15) have been expiring for more then a year now. Yet DirecTV has been growing by record numbers. DLB, while an important feature for some, just isn't a big driving force behind people's choice of provider. You gotta also remember that most people getting a DVR in the past 3 years with DirecTV has never had a DVR before, thus never had a Tivo, thus never had DLB in the first place. Thus they aren't "missing anything". There are far more DirecTV DVRs in use now then there were DirecTivo's at their peak. Over 500K DirecTivos went dark last fiscal year. Yet DirecTV keeps on growing faster then they have for years. Obviously DLB isn't a big deal for the general population. If it is to you then good luck and I hope you have a good cable of FIOS option.
> 
> One also needs to realize that there are under 4 million Tivo's in use, more then half are DirecTivo's still out there. Tivo has less then 10% of the DVR market. Tivo doesn't drive the DVR market anymore and hasn't for some time.


You're right. It was only us poor saps that had DLB, added an HD DRV dual-tuner HR2x and ASSUMED it had DLB because every other dual tuner DVR on the market has DLB. You certainly can't tell from the marketing material from D* that you can't switch tuners. Although Dish Vips promote it!

HD content is by far the determining factor - even with contracts expiring. Mine's still got 18 months to go.

But I wouldn't say the new subscribers that never had DLB aren't "missing anything".


----------



## tigerlily1

dennisj00 said:


> You're right. It was only us poor saps that had DLB, added an HD DRV dual-tuner HR2x and ASSUMED it had DLB because every other dual tuner DVR on the market has DLB. You certainly can't tell from the marketing material from D* that you can't switch tuners. Although Dish Vips promote it!


- this is exactly why I got the HD-DVR, if I had known that I couldn't switch tuners. I would never have upgraded.


----------



## ATARI

tigerlily1 said:


> - this is exactly why I got the HD-DVR, if I had known that I couldn't switch tuners. I would never have upgraded.


:welcome_s

And thank you for your honest comments.

You probably won't convert any of the die-hards that think DLB is a niche feature that the vast majority of users don't care about, but thanks anyway for stepping forward.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tigerlily1 said:


> - this is exactly why I got the HD-DVR, if I had known that I couldn't switch tuners. I would never have upgraded.


Certainly a valid point.

Prior to your change, was there anything you saw in any documentation anywhere or other location at the time that indicated DLB was an existing or intended feature in the HR20 oir HR21 DirecTV HD DVR lines?

I tried to do some research of some "older" 2006 materials back in February 2008, but couldn't find anything, but it would be interesting to see if there may have been something out there.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I think I figured it out the lack of DLB is a conspirasy between DTv and DBSTalk.

Without this thread this place would only need one modirator. :eek2:


----------



## tigerlily1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Certainly a valid point.
> 
> Prior to your change, was there anything you saw in any documentation anywhere or other location at the time that indicated DLB was an existing or intended feature in the HR20 oir HR21 DirecTV HD DVR lines?
> 
> I tried to do some research of some "older" 2006 materials back in February 2008, but couldn't find anything, but it would be interesting to see if there may have been something out there.


When I was looking in to changing, the main condition I had was to make sure that the new receiver would have DLB. I guess I incorrectly assumed that being able to record 2 shows at the same time was the same as DLB - which it obviously isn't. It's a subtle difference, but I obviously didn't realize it until I tried to switch tuners and then I found this forum which clarified that having 2 tuners doesn't necessarily = DLB.


----------



## puffnstuff

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Certainly a valid point.
> 
> Prior to your change, was there anything you saw in any documentation anywhere or other location at the time that indicated DLB was an existing or intended feature in the HR20 oir HR21 DirecTV HD DVR lines?
> 
> I tried to do some research of some "older" 2006 materials back in February 2008, but couldn't find anything, but it would be interesting to see if there may have been something out there.


Just Earl saying that they were working on implementing it .


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tigerlily1 said:


> When I was looking in to changing, the main condition I had was to make sure that the new receiver would have DLB. I guess I incorrectly assumed that being able to record 2 shows at the same time was the same as DLB - which it obviously isn't. It's a subtle difference, but I obviously didn't realize it until I tried to switch tuners and then I found this forum which clarified that having 2 tuners doesn't necessarily = DLB.


That's unfortunate. I can certainly understand your disappointment.

Hopefully they will deploy their "alternative solution", which some of us (that read the brief chatroom info about it) seemed to be led to believe it will happen some time and you should like it. Beyond that, there's just not much more information on this topic in terms of the future.


----------



## James Long

ATARI said:


> And thank you for your honest comments.


As opposed to the other posts in the threads?


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> As opposed to the other posts in the threads?


Maybe "forthright" would have been better?


----------



## tthunder38

tigerlily1 said:


> - this is exactly why I got the HD-DVR, if I had known that I couldn't switch tuners. I would never have upgraded.


Similar situation here. When we remodeled our office I bought two new hdtv's and signed up for D, which I have at home with the old Ultimate TV setup. I had absolutely no idea the functionality of the "new" hi def ready hr-20's I purchased would be lacking features that I've been using at home for years. Imagine my suprise when I found out that # 1, I no longer had the option of PIP or #2, what I interpret to be DLB's or dual tuners where missing on the new box. Both features that i use on a regular basis at home.

I had plans to upgrade my setup to Hi def at home but after finding out what D now offers i have been holding out until they come up with some sort of solution. I can always buy two hr20's and hook to one tv to get the DLB & PIP back but why should I have to purchase, errr... lease two boxes to replace the one I currently have? Makes no sense to me. So at this point i'm chosing the functionality of my ultimate tv over the pros of hi def and it shouldn't have to be that way.

And as far as being a tech geek.....no way i can talk the talk of walk the walk of techno-babble of most of the people that frequent these boards. I mostly come around here to keep up with the trials and tribualtions of other D subscribers. Now if you want to talk about building some of the fastest motorcyles on the planet i can hang with ya on that subject.


----------



## Que

Another reason to have DLB . We had a bad 11 car accident here and I was swap /pause tuners, checking out all the local OTA news. 18 wheeler was on his cell phone and didn't see the cars stop ahead of him. Ran over 5 vehicles and push the others, killed 3.


----------



## Que

RCY said:


> Perhaps so. But the availabilty of DLB in other DVRs indicates that it is a feature that some think important.


It's important to "some" users and a giving to all other DVR makers.

[edit] "some"


----------



## Que

Stuart Sweet said:


> Then I would say that 1125 people, who may or may not comprise a statistically valid sample of the roughly 18 million DIRECTV subscribers and their families (who knows how many people that is) want DLB. I do not think the data lend themselves to more interpretation than that.
> 
> Even if you limit the group to only DVR households, that's something like 300,000 at this point. I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


.....but we really don't know one way or the other. Only way if D* sent out mailers and all those mailer was return. Something I wish they would do but, you know they would never send something like that out.

[edit] Not just about DLB but, what they want in a DVR.


----------



## Que

DarinC said:


> So let's just stick with the facts:
> 
> 1. We don't know the percentage of the general population that would consider DLB an important feature.
> 
> 2. We know that the vast majority of the competition offers DVRs with DLB.
> 
> 3. We know that 75% of a sub-set of DirecTV customers (best labeled as enthusiasts) consider DLB an important feature.
> 
> If you were a person in a position in DirecTV to make decisions on the goals of the hardware, and were given this information, would you dismiss it since there's no proof that it holds value to the greater population?


Just the facts...maybe soon it will be on the plus line.

[edit] Dang go out of town just for the weekend and come back to 90 post added....


----------



## Que

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Certainly a valid point.
> 
> Prior to your change, was there anything you saw in any documentation anywhere or other location at the time that indicated DLB was an existing or intended feature in the HR20 oir HR21 DirecTV HD DVR lines?
> 
> I tried to do some research of some "older" 2006 materials back in February 2008, but couldn't find anything, but it would be interesting to see if there may have been something out there.


I think it might be the model number HR10 to Hr2x. You would think that there would be same features. I guess with anything you get now a days you have to research it first and not go by the model number. It could be made by someone else and nothing like what your use to.


----------



## burtom

I was just thinking if multi room viewing is implemented and works the way it should, meaning you can view any tuner on any DVR in the house and control that DVR, and say a customer had 4 DVRs hooked up in a house, wouldn’t that equal quad live buffers?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

burtom said:


> I was just thinking if multi room viewing is implemented and works the way it should, meaning you can view any tuner on any DVR in the house and control that DVR, and say a customer had 4 DVRs hooked up in a house, wouldn't that equal quad live buffers?


With MRV you will not be able to watch live tuners from another unit. You will be able to stream recorded programs from other units.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Michael D'Angelo;1687962 said:


> With MRV you will not be able to watch live tuners from another unit. You will be able to stream recorded programs from other units.


Are we sure of that? I didn't know there were details that specific with regards to what MRV may or may not be.

And, the second part of that question... could you view _recordING _programs? If so, you could essentially have 3 programs recording and viewable (2 'remote', 1 'local') and a spare tuner for jumping around from channel to channel (this, obviously with a 2 DVR setup)...


----------



## DarinC

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Are we sure of that? I didn't know there were details that specific with regards to what MRV may or may not be.


I don't know what their plans are, but trying to remotely control the unit, as opposed to simply accessing the stored data on the remote unit, is opening up a big can of worms.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

DarinC said:


> I don't know what their plans are, but trying to remotely control the unit, as opposed to simply accessing the stored data on the remote unit, is opening up a big can of worms.


I understand that, and it makes total sense.... I was just curious if Micheal had heard it stated as a matter of fact or if that's just the assumption we're all working from...


----------



## James Long

Que said:


> Another reason to have DLB . We had a bad 11 car accident here and I was swap /pause tuners, checking out all the local OTA news. 18 wheeler was on his cell phone and didn't see the cars stop ahead of him. Ran over 5 vehicles and push the others, killed 3.


So .... having DLB would be life saving or just satisfy your thirst for information?

I suppose multiple stations would be needed if you thought a friend or relative was involved and you wanted to see the right camera angle to recognize (what's left of) their vehicle. The death of three people isn't supposed to be entertainment.

Should we just start calling you "Look-e-lou Que"? :grin:

(I'm fortunate in that only one local station ever bothered - past tense - to cover live stuff ... and since they sold their helicopter a year or two ago even they have stopped going out to scenes unless it is close to one of their offices. Even on the 6 and 11 news we rarely get video coverage of an accident - although if it is a big one they will send a crew to the scene the next day after the cleanup.)


----------



## Nicholsen

James:

I am truly sorry about the loss of life, but will make no judgment about the pros and cons of coverage. (That is a much bigger issue.) The most dangerous thing we do on a regular basis is drive.

Que's most recent post is just more clear evidence of why the HR21 needs DLB. I was becoming concerned that Que had been abducted by the anti-DLB forces. I am sure the 11 car pile-up near him was part of an elaborate diversionary plan to take him hostage.  

Seriously, I am glad to see Que is back and posting.

Around my house, we think the words to that Dire Straits song are "I Want My DLB."


----------



## Drew2k

Michael D'Angelo;1687962 said:


> With MRV you will not be able to watch live tuners from another unit. You will be able to stream recorded programs from other units.


Really depends on how MRV is implemented. Transfer the video before it can be played remotely, or stream it so it can be played instantly? Permit pausing a program from one location and resumption at the same paused position from another location? Treat the live buffer (which is just a recording to the hard drive) as a stream that can be viewed elsewhere, or not?


----------



## Drew2k

Regarding breaking news, that is actually the time I miss DLB the most. When something big happens, or something that affects me in some way, I want to see news feeds for all the locals and nationals to see the different angles for how the story is reported as well as to see who scoops the other newscasters with facts or exclusive pictures or answers to explain what just happened. DLB made it easy to keep my favorite channel paused on one buffer with the other buffer being used to surf the other channels. If something came up good while surfing there, I'd pause, flip back to my previous buffer, catch up to live, and then start using that buffer for surfing. I could do this with ease on the TiVo, with my only complaint being that 30 minute buffers just weren't long enough.


----------



## Flyrx7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Prior to your change, was there anything you saw in any documentation anywhere or other location at the time that indicated DLB was an existing or intended feature in the HR20 oir HR21 DirecTV HD DVR lines?


Maybe not in writing, but I was told, twice, by two seperate CSR's that it would be available and in the works for the HR2* series units. Of course this was prior to my "upgrade" from the HR10-250. So in hindsight, it would appear that they were lying to make a sale (or maybe, most likely, just mis-informed, which seems to be a D* tactic, not necessarily just a shortcoming). That is the primary reason that the lack of DLB thus far angers me the most.

Another assumption would be like what others have said, the receiver was supposed to be an updgrade from the previous model, HR10 to an HR20, so why leave stuff out? After all, it has dual tuners.  Maybe should have called it an HR05.


----------



## mikewolf13

Stuart Sweet said:


> Then I would say that 1125 people, who may or may not comprise a statistically valid sample of the roughly 18 million DIRECTV subscribers and their families (who knows how many people that is) want DLB. I do not think the data lend themselves to more interpretation than that.
> 
> Even if you limit the group to only DVR households, that's something like 300,000 at this point. I would still raise the question of statistical validity.


For 3 years, I have read incesantly about how valuable this forum is to DTV.

"THey are watching".."they care"...We hear it all the time.....We have the CE program and now I am suppossed to dismiss a clear and consistent desire of the voting majority of the forum because we are statistically insignificant ?


----------



## ATARI

mikewolf13 said:


> For 3 years, I have read incesantly about how valuable this forum is to DTV.
> 
> "THey are watching".."they care"...We hear it all the time.....We have the CE program and now I am suppossed to dismiss a clear and consistent desire of the voting majority of the forum because we are statistically insignificant ?


You make a good point.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mikewolf13 said:


> For 3 years, I have read incesantly about how valuable this forum is to DTV.
> 
> "THey are watching".."they care"...We hear it all the time.....We have the CE program and now I am suppossed to dismiss a clear and consistent desire of the voting majority of the forum because we are statistically insignificant ?


I believe that folks are not proposing to dismiss a poll nor its respondents, rather, put the results in the context of the actual number of total users. It is useful information, and represents the views of about 1200 people.


----------



## Doug Brott

mikewolf13 said:


> For 3 years, I have read incesantly about how valuable this forum is to DTV.
> 
> "THey are watching".."they care"...We hear it all the time.....We have the CE program and now I am suppossed to dismiss a clear and consistent desire of the voting majority of the forum because we are statistically insignificant ?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe that folks are not proposing to dismiss a poll nor its respondents, rather, put the results in the context of the actual number of total users. It is useful information, and represents the views of about 1200 people.


To me, the results clearly state that DLB would be a "nice to have" feature. I have no problem extrapolating that to a broader population as well .. the number are too telling. DIRECTV is aware of the information in this thread.

In addition, DIRECTV has listened to us .. check out the "Completed" list at the bottom of this page


----------



## mikewolf13

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe that folks are not proposing to dismiss a poll nor its respondents, rather, put the results in the context of the actual number of total users. It is useful information, and represents the views of about 1200 people.


Bringing up the small sample size_ is _an attempt to dismiss the poll and it's results. THere is no other reason to bring up small sample size than to cast doubt on the accuracy of the results.

The point is, that if our issues and our wishlist items have garnered the attention of DTV, even though we are a small and insignificant (size-wise) portion of the overall DTV population, then it is silly to minimize the signifigance of the DLB issue due to the size of the forum.

If this forum gets the respect from DTV to participate in the CE program, then I think our views on DLB should also be respected...even if it's only 1200 people.


----------



## raott

mikewolf13 said:


> Bringing up the small sample size_ is _an attempt to dismiss the poll and it's results. THere is no other reason to bring up small sample size than to cast doubt on the accuracy of the results.


I think some people would be surprised at how small a sample size can be to be statistically valid.

I also think that the same folks who dismiss the DLB poll as not being valid would be falling all over themselves praising the validity of a poll that was along the lines of "which is better D* or cable" ---and 70% chose D*.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

To be clear, I never said the poll was invalid, I said I couldn't determine if it was valid. It's true that a very small sample can be very predictive _if it's the right sample_.

I also apologize to anyone who felt dismissed. Your opinions are all very valid individually.

Believe me, if I had been in the meeting when the original Plus DVR specs were being determined, I would have lobbied for dual 90 minute buffers, or at least an option to turn them on.

The fact that DIRECTV has been so responsive to our wishes and desires in general, and not to this one specifically, ought to tell you something. I wish I could tell you why DLB isn't implemented, or if it will be implemented, but the fact is that it's not.

What I can tell you, and I do tell you as frequently as I can, is that they are listening. They do hear you, and they are interested. If you have kids, you know that you listen to all the things your kids say, and then you look at things the kids could not possibly know before you make a decision.


----------



## beer_geek

Stuart Sweet said:


> . If you have kids, you know that you listen to all the things your kids say, and then you look at things the kids could not possibly know before you make a decision.


Just as with kids, "because I said so" isn't working here and you have to give a reasonable explanation.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Here is where the kids analogy breaks down. DIRECTV can't say what they have in mind that is better in their opinion until it is ready. They can't spill competitive info.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## beer_geek

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is where the kids analogy breaks down. DIRECTV can't say what they have in mind that is better in their opinion until it is ready. They can't spill competitive info.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree;to a point. Here's why: How long did it take to develop the HR2x? It's been out for almost 2 years, right?

So, we're looking at 3-4 years lead time on this wonderful new feature? If it takes that long for DirecTV to do it, how long should it take the competition?


----------



## BubblePuppy

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is where the kids analogy breaks down. DIRECTV can't say what they have in mind that is better in their opinion until it is ready. They can't spill competitive info.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If the "something better" is sort of like DLB I just hope it won't require a second dvr.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is where the kids analogy breaks down. DIRECTV can't say what they have in mind that is better in their opinion until it is ready. They can't spill competitive info.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Which, IMHO, is why they've been so quiet on the subject from the begining.

Mike


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is where the kids analogy breaks down. DIRECTV can't say what they have in mind that is better in their opinion until it is ready. They can't spill competitive info.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have to disagree with you on this one, Tom. I think the kids analogy is actually a really good one.

In my house, "Becase I said so" is a perfectly legitimate response to the question "Why".

Often times I tell my kids "no". Without fail, they ask 'Why?'. Sometimes I'll explain to them my reasons. Sometimes, if the reasons aren't for them to know, they will not get an answer. I make the rules, they understand that, and sometimes that means they don't get to see 'behind the curtain.'

I think that's very much applicable here. DirecTV's court, DirecTV's ball, DirecTV's rules. They aren't obligated at all to explain to us their every business decision.

Certainly it would be nice to get a reasonable explanation as to why this feature doesn't exist on the HR2x, but if DirecTV chooses to keep that information to themselves, then we're left to "deal with it".

(I think the point at which the analogy breaks down is that unlike kids, if we don't like the answer, we do have other courses of action we can take. And, if we feel that, despite the lack of an answer, staying the course is our best option, then we can come here and complain until we're blue in the face about it!)


----------



## n3ntj

I was disappointed from the start that the HR-2x series didn't have DLB. I have come to accept that we may never get this feature, although I still feel the feature is needed. For those of us that watch sports (such as two concurrently occurring games), DLB is almost a requirement.

D* dropped the ball BIG TIME when they decided to not offer DLB on the HR-2x series of HD DVRs and apparently have not taken their customers seriously who have asked repeated for this feature.


----------



## jahgreen

Maybe something like TiVo's just-announced "Product Purchase" will be "something better than DLB."

We all want to be able to buy from Amazon using the remote, don't we? If it's a TiVo idea it must be good!*



*tongue planted firmly in cheek; no flaming required.

see http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121674031062373753.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


----------



## DC_SnDvl

When they still did no't have DLB last fall I dropped all of my premium sports subscriptions and I told hem that the reason I did it was not DLB on the new DVR.

The CSR didn't care at all.



n3ntj said:


> I was disappointed from the start that the HR-2x series didn't have DLB. I have come to accept that we may never get this feature, although I still feel the feature is needed. For those of us that watch sports (such as two concurrently occurring games), DLB is almost a requirement.
> 
> D* dropped the ball BIG TIME when they decided to not offer DLB on the HR-2x series of HD DVRs and apparently have not taken their customers seriously who have asked repeated for this feature.


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> When they still did no't have DLB last fall I dropped all of my premium sports subscriptions and I told hem that the reason I did it was not DLB on the new DVR.
> 
> The CSR didn't care at all.


OK .. I realize that this isn't DLB and I also realize that this is not a solution for everyone .. BUT .. You can always run two separate HD DVRs. In fact, I think there is one person who posted some pictures with 6 different screens attached to 6 different HD DVRs .. Either way, there are ways to tackle the situation even though it's clearly not the optimal solution in every case.


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> .. You can always run two separate HD DVRs.


It would be nice if they would waive the lease fee on a 2nd DVR located in the same room until they have DLB (or something better that provides that functionality) available.


----------



## vwman18

DC_SnDvl said:


> When they still did no't have DLB last fall I dropped all of my premium sports subscriptions and I told hem that the reason I did it was not DLB on the new DVR.
> 
> The CSR didn't care at all.


That's exactly why I cancelled Sunday Ticket at the end of last season. I found that without the DLBs I just wasn't watching as many games. I would keep one game I really wanted to watch on one tuner and bounce around all the other ones on the other tuner. Theres just no fast and easy way to do this with the current DVR.


----------



## luckydob

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. I realize that this isn't DLB and I also realize that this is not a solution for everyone .. BUT .. You can always run two separate HD DVRs. In fact, I think there is one person who posted some pictures with 6 different screens attached to 6 different HD DVRs .. Either way, there are ways to tackle the situation even though it's clearly not the optimal solution in every case.


Sure...it's a solution, but then again you could just use a VCR instead of a DVR...a solution it is, but a poor one. Although...my VCR never missed a recording.  In this situation it's clear to me. D* is Lucy holding the football and we (customers) are Charlie Brown being assured that we will be able to kick the football this time.


----------



## Doug Brott

luckydob said:


> Sure...it's a solution, but then again you could just use a VCR instead of a DVR...a solution it is, but a poor one. Although...my VCR never missed a recording.  In this situation it's clear to me. D* is Lucy holding the football and we (customers) are Charlie Brown being assured that we will be able to kick the football this time.


Not even close .. I know I'm not an idiot, but when it came to VCRs I might have well have been .. I couldn't tell you how many times I simply got recordings wrong. Any DVR beats that for me.

With two DVRs, you could switch back and forth using various inputs into your TV. The VCR would be much more kludgey in that situation .. so no, if your going to use a VCR, then recording the "second" on your second tuner is the better option .. but doesn't solve the problem.

I absolutely agree that two DVRs is not DLB. It's just an option that will work in some situations .. despite the fact that it's not DLB.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. I realize that this isn't DLB and I also realize that this is not a solution for everyone .. BUT .. You can always run two separate HD DVRs. In fact, I think there is one person who posted some pictures with 6 different screens attached to 6 different HD DVRs .. Either way, there are ways to tackle the situation even though it's clearly not the optimal solution in every case.


Should I call them back and tell them I should get a 2nd free HR20 so I can watch 2 games at the same time again?

Has anyone been able to do this?

I would need a SWM also because I can't run any more lines to my set location.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> Not even close .. I know I'm not an idiot, but when it came to VCRs I might have well have been .. I couldn't tell you how many times I simply got recordings wrong. Any DVR beats that for me.
> 
> With two DVRs, you could switch back and forth using various inputs into your TV. The VCR would be much more kludgey in that situation .. so no, if your going to use a VCR, then recording the "second" on your second tuner is the better option .. but doesn't solve the problem.
> 
> *I absolutely agree that two DVRs is not DLB*. It's just an option that will work in some situations .. despite the fact that it's not DLB.


You're right it isn't....but then again.....:guck:

I actually have two HR21s in the living room. With my universal remote it is a one button press to swap receivers.

It's not what I intended when I added the second HR21 but it is in effect DLB.

Of course it only acts like DLB because I have a programmable universal remote (MX-810) and when I push the button to swap receivers my remote changes to the opposite IR code (00001 or 00003 depending).

So, if you exclude the extra expense for the programmable remote and required second DVR, it is exactly like DLB...

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

If this ever gets off the ground, we could have all the DVRs talking to each other via wireless interface...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133901

This could give us >DLB without haveing to use/configure the home network.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> So, if you exclude the extra expense for the programmable remote and required second DVR, it is exactly like DLB...


 .. well, that is, unfortunately, why it will not work for everyone.


----------



## Richierich

I have been monitoring all 460 pages of this thread on & off and I just want to know when I will be getting DLB on my HR21-700s???


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I have been monitoring all 460 pages of this thread on & off and I just want to know when I will be getting DLB on my HR21-700s???


Some time after Tiger Woods returns and wins his next Major.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some time after Tiger Woods returns and wins his next Major.


Hmmmm...:scratchin

What do you know that the rest of don't.....:grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> Hmmmm...:scratchin
> 
> What do you know that the rest of don't.....:grin:
> 
> Mike


Richerich understands....


----------



## Richierich

Probably when I switch from my HR21-700 to my backup unit which is an HR10-250 with 1.5 TB of space on it!!! LOL!!!


----------



## DBSNewbie

MicroBeta said:


> You're right it isn't....but then again.....:guck:
> 
> I actually have two HR21s in the living room. With my universal remote it is a one button press to swap receivers.
> 
> It's not what I intended when I added the second HR21 but it is in effect DLB.
> 
> Of course it only acts like DLB because I have a programmable universal remote (MX-810) and when I push the button to swap receivers my remote changes to the opposite IR code (00001 or 00003 depending).
> 
> So, if you exclude the extra expense for the programmable remote and required second DVR, it is exactly like DLB...
> 
> Mike





Doug Brott said:


> .. well, that is, unfortunately, why it will not work for everyone.


Although not as fancy and sleek as the colored, semi--touch-screen URC MX-810, fairly inexpensive universal remotes with macro capabilities to perform the receiver/ video input swapping commands that Micro Beta described above can be had for under $20. (The URC-R6 comes to mind).

With all the HD programming D* has to offer, and assuming one could get an HD DVR at a discounted cost, or free of charge, even, the one time investment for the HD DVR and universal remote, plus an additional 4.99 per month for the additional receiver fee seems like a reasonable price to pay (especially to the avid sports fan) for a "virtual" DLB setup.

And, as an added bonus, you are also, in effect, doubling your hard drive capacity.


----------



## n3ntj

DC_SnDvl said:


> When they still did no't have DLB last fall I dropped all of my premium sports subscriptions and I told hem that the reason I did it was not DLB on the new DVR.
> 
> The CSR didn't care at all.


I bet the CSR didn't even know the term DLB.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

DC_SnDvl said:


> When they still did no't have DLB last fall I dropped all of my premium sports subscriptions and I told hem that the reason I did it was not DLB on the new DVR.
> 
> The CSR didn't care at all.





n3ntj said:


> I bet the CSR didn't even know the term DLB.


How did you know?

If the CSRs don't know what it is, then I don't think any of us should expect it in time for football.


----------



## Flyrx7

DC_SnDvl said:


> How did you know?
> 
> If the CSRs don't know what it is, then I don't think any of us should expect it in time for football.


Actually, whether it's in the pipleine or not, I will not ever believe another D* CSR for as long I live. They are not in a position of knowledge IMHO, and will lie or make uninformed responses just to make you happy or make a sale.

I know that is a broad brush stroke, but my overall experience with anything technical regarding a D* CSR is very poor.

I would think that when DLB is available and functioning, 60% of the CSR's won't know anything about it. Probably ask how it's spelled.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DBSNewbie said:


> <snip>
> With all the HD programming D* has to offer, and assuming one could get an HD DVR at a discounted cost, or free of charge, even, the one time investment for the HD DVR and universal remote, plus an additional 4.99 per month for the additional receiver fee seems like a reasonable price to pay (especially to the avid sports fan) for a "virtual" DLB setup.
> 
> And, as an added bonus, you are also, in effect, doubling your hard drive capacity.


Milominderbinder2 had a thread on this exact subject....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=97929&highlight=DLB

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually, whether it's in the pipleine or not, I will not ever believe another D* CSR for as long I live. They are not in a position of knowledge IMHO, and will lie or make uninformed responses just to make you happy or make a sale.
> 
> I know that is a broad brush stroke, but my overall experience with anything technical regarding a D* CSR is very poor.
> 
> I would think that when DLB is available and functioning, 60% of the CSR's won't know anything about it. Probably ask how it's spelled.


Of course I'm not sure why anyone would trust a CSR from any company let alone from DirecTV.   They are about as low on the totem pole as you can get and the least paid. To expect them to know anything beyond their call scripts is asking a lot. Sure that is a broad generalization but it's true in most cases. Believe me, I worked a help desk many moons ago. And I was promoted off the help desk pretty quickly because I did know more then the call scripts.


----------



## DBSNewbie

MicroBeta said:


> Milominderbinder2 had a thread on this exact subject....
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=97929&highlight=DLB
> 
> Mike


Thanks for pointing that out, MicroBeta. After reading the first several posts of that thread, though, I was amazed to see how so many people were against the idea, but I can definitely see where they are coming from. It does seem nuts to have to pay $60 a year for a feature that was free on earlier receivers.

However, as a big sports fan myself, having the ability alone to pause and rewind multiple sporting events in HD simultaneously is a bargain at an additional $5 per month. Yes, I would love to have DLB on a single unit, but considering ALL the HD Sports Programming that's now available on the new MPEG4 receivers, it's definitely worth it.

All the other added benefits such as greater recording capacity and extra tuners is just gravy.


----------



## bonscott87

DBSNewbie said:


> All the other added benefits such as greater recording capacity and extra tuners is just gravy.


Well, this is the key for me. You just have to have 2 DVRs nowadays anyway. I'm already looking at a triple conflict this fall on Mondays. If I didn't have 2 DVRs I'd miss one of the shows. So 2 HD DVRs not only allow me to record up to 4 shows at once it also give me PIP thru my TV should I choose it and can do a sudo "DLB" should I wish. Worth $5 a month easy (to me). There just is no downside.

Yes, it's not DLB. But DLB isn't coming, the CIO has stated that. But keep complaining in hopes we get this "better then DLB", whatever that will be.


----------



## raott

DBSNewbie said:


> However, as a big sports fan myself, having the ability alone to pause and rewind multiple sporting events in HD simultaneously is a bargain at an additional $5 per month.


It's a $199 upfront fee, just for the privilege of leasing another box. You'll need either an SWM setup or have an install to run two more wires. You incur another two year commitment. And then you pay an extra $5 a month.

All that to try and simulate a feature that is found (for free) on the DVR of just about every other provider.

That is why many of us don't see it as a bargain.


----------



## DBSNewbie

raott said:


> All that to try and simulate a feature that is found (for free) on the DVR of just about every other provider.
> 
> That is why many of us don't see it as a bargain.


If the other providers offered all the sports programming that D* does, then I agree with you, there is no point to a second HD DVR.

But the point is, there is no other way to watch all available NFL Games (barring blackout restrictions), MLB Dual Feeds, all NCAA Men's Div I Basketball Tournament Games, Expanded Majors Golf and Tennis Tournaments Coverage, Dedicated Nascar Driver Cams, etc., than with going with D*.

And if the only way to be able to Pause and Rewind the LIVE coverage of those events, which are occurring simultaneously, is through the use of multiple HD DVRs, then again, I must say, to the "Sports Fan", it is worth it.

The one time investment for the additional receiver (which can be had at a discounted cost or free of charge, in some cases) and an SWM or the running of additional lines would be equal to purchasing an external Hard Drive to double your recording capacity, anyway. You'll end up having a 100 series limit instead of just 50, as well.

And besides, the new commitment doesn't mean a thing if D* is the only provider with NFL ST, MLB Dual Feeds, Hotpass, Masters/US Open Mix, French/Wimbledon/US Open Mix, and Mega March Madness.

All the sports packages that the other providers offer (NBA League Pass, NHL Center Ice, ESPN Game Plan, ESPN Full Court, etc.) are also available on D*, so if there is no incentive to jump ship, then the two-year commitment is of no concern.


----------



## mikewolf13

raott said:


> It's a $199 upfront fee, just for the privilege of leasing another box. You'll need either an SWM setup or have an install to run two more wires. You incur another two year commitment. And then you pay an extra $5 a month.
> 
> All that to try and simulate a feature that is found (for free) on the DVR of just about every other provider.
> 
> That is why many of us don't see it as a bargain.


and If i want DLB in each of the three locations where the wife, kids and I watch tv now..it's 3 new DVRs (~$600) and $15/month

Not to mention needing two seperate remotes... in each room...imagine the "average user" needing to manage two boxes....

"That didn't record...oh wait it's on the other box...."
"I recorded it twice cause I forgot what was on each box....."
"Why do I have to have two boxes...shouldn't this be easier....."


----------



## bonscott87

mikewolf13 said:


> and If i want DLB in each of the three locations where the wife, kids and I watch tv now..it's 3 new DVRs (~$600) and $15/month
> 
> Not to mention needing two seperate remotes... in each room...imagine the "average user" needing to manage two boxes....
> 
> "That didn't record...oh wait it's on the other box...."
> "I recorded it twice cause I forgot what was on each box....."
> "Why do I have to have two boxes...shouldn't this be easier....."


I'll just mention that there is no need for 2 separate remotes. You can easily set up both receivers on a single DirecTV remote let alone a universal remote.


----------



## mikewolf13

bonscott87 said:


> I'll just mention that there is no need for 2 separate remotes. You can easily set up both receivers on a single DirecTV remote let alone a universal remote.


Great..now I gotta buy a universal remote on top of my 3 new DVRs???

But your point is valid...so i cancelled call waiting on my cell phone and just bought an extra phone.

I also bought a new laptop..it's far too convienent to do quicken on one and surf the web on another


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually, whether it's in the pipleine or not, I will not ever believe another D* CSR for as long I live. They are not in a position of knowledge IMHO, and will lie or make uninformed responses just to make you happy or make a sale.
> 
> I know that is a broad brush stroke, but my overall experience with anything technical regarding a D* CSR is very poor.
> 
> I would think that when DLB is available and functioning, 60% of the CSR's won't know anything about it. Probably ask how it's spelled.


I was not serious in my statement. Football is only a month away, that is why I don't think we will see it before the season starts. They would be doing testing with the Directv alpha test goup by now.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

mikewolf13 said:


> Great..now I gotta buy a universal remote on top of my 3 new DVRs???
> 
> But your point is valid...so i cancelled call waiting on my cell phone and just bought an extra phone.
> 
> I also bought a new laptop..it's far too convienent to do quicken on one and surf the web on another


ROFL :lol:


----------



## bonscott87

mikewolf13 said:


> Great..now I gotta buy a universal remote on top of my 3 new DVRs???


No, the DirecTV remote works just fine for 2 receivers.



> But your point is valid...so i cancelled call waiting on my cell phone and just bought an extra phone.
> 
> I also bought a new laptop..it's far too convienent to do quicken on one and surf the web on another


Or you could just record your shows and not watch live TV, then there isn't anything to miss. :lol:


----------



## DBSNewbie

mikewolf13 said:


> Great..now I gotta buy a universal remote on top of my 3 new DVRs???
> 
> But your point is valid...so i cancelled call waiting on my cell phone and just bought an extra phone.
> 
> I also bought a new laptop..it's far too convienent to do quicken on one and surf the web on another


Now that's just silly (although I did get a good laugh with your sarcasm). 

We would all welcome DLB on a single unit, but the fact that it is NOT available on the MPEG4 HD DVRs (which offers access to all this HD Programming not found anywhere else), is the only reason why we are suggesting the multi DVR alternative.

The examples you gave above are all based on features that are already available and are abandoning them for the sake of multiple devices.

That's not the same thing here. Yes, it's true that the old Tivo units did have DLB, but they cannot receive the new channels. So until the new HD DVRs have DLB, if ever, then a second unit aint so bad.


----------



## Flyrx7

So now we're dissecting sarcasm. We must be running out of steam


----------



## dennisj00

It's pretty ridiculous that some are trying to justify the LACK of DLB by using multiple HR2xs.

There are lots of other gotcha's besides cost and remotes, wiring - not only coax to the DVR but wiring to the TV or receiver which is pretty much a PAIN after everything is in place, space in the entertainment center, additional UPS - more space, more heat, more energy, on and on and on. . . some of us have budgets and mainly expect a TWO TUNER DVR to have access to each tuner!!

Just give us a button and a small buffer -- it can't be that hard!!


----------



## mikewolf13

Flyrx7 said:


> So now we're dissecting sarcasm. We must be running out of steam


+1


----------



## puffnstuff

dennisj00 said:


> It's pretty ridiculous that some are trying to justify the LACK of DLB by using multiple HR2xs.
> 
> There are lots of other gotcha's besides cost and remotes, wiring - not only coax to the DVR but wiring to the TV or receiver which is pretty much a PAIN after everything is in place, space in the entertainment center, additional UPS - more space, more heat, more energy, on and on and on. . . some of us have budgets and mainly expect a TWO TUNER DVR to have access to each tuner!!
> 
> Just give us a button and a small buffer -- it can't be that hard!!


Exactly I have 2 HR's , a HD comcast box , hdmi switch , PS3 , wii , xbox 360 , sirius , av receiver , htpc , 2 ups's , Fyre TV (coming soon ) and msntv2 in the entertainment stand already . I would love to get rid of something . It looks like an airport landing strip in here with the lights off


----------



## DarinC

Not to mention inputs... I have the HR21, HR10, VHS, SD DVD (kept in system for DVD-A), HD-DVD player, Laserdisc, PS3, and HTPC. That's 8 a/v sources, and I only have 7 inputs, one of which is on the front, so I have to do some juggling. HD people often have lots of junk. No need to add more unnecessarily.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> It's pretty ridiculous that some are trying to justify the LACK of DLB by using multiple HR2xs.
> 
> There are lots of other gotcha's besides cost and remotes, wiring - not only coax to the DVR but wiring to the TV or receiver which is pretty much a PAIN after everything is in place, space in the entertainment center, additional UPS - more space, more heat, more energy, on and on and on. . . some of us have budgets and mainly expect a TWO TUNER DVR to have access to each tuner!!
> 
> Just give us a button and a small buffer -- it can't be that hard!!


I wasn't trying to justify anything.

I never implied it is a viable work around or even a substitute for DLB.

I also I expressed that it required additional up front and continuing expenses.

Further, if you've read both DLB threads, you'd see I have been strongly arguing for DLB. I wrote one of the letters and compiled the list of HD-DVRs with DLB that are in the first post of the original DLB thread.

If you take things in context you'd see I wasn't trying to justify the use of two DVRs vs. actually having DLB. I merely pointed that it was possible. :grin:

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

Ouch, Mike, you're taking things too personally!! I had to go back a page or so to realize your post somewhat started the dual HR spin.

I just wanted to reinforce that multiple HRs wasn't a good workaround, hell, the 'workaround' isn't a good workaround!

Other possibilities -- I could buy D*tv and take over the programming -- we'd have DLB within a month -- but that's not gonna happen either!

Just give us DLB!!


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> Ouch, Mike, you're taking things too personally!! I had to go back a page or so to realize your post somewhat started the dual HR spin.


No, I started this line of discussion .. and I clearly stated that it will not work for everyone .. period. It's just another option out there since DLB isn't.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> Ouch, Mike, you're taking things too personally!! I had to go back a page or so to realize your post somewhat started the dual HR spin.
> 
> I just wanted to reinforce that multiple HRs wasn't a good workaround, hell, the 'workaround' isn't a good workaround!
> 
> Other possibilities -- I could buy D*tv and take over the programming -- we'd have DLB within a month -- but that's not gonna happen either!
> 
> Just give us DLB!!


If I was taking it personally there wouldn't be a smilie and you'd get a pm. 

Since I've never pm-ed anyone po-ed, should show that I never take what's typed in the ether personally.

I just wanted to make sure it's understood that no one(at least I think it's no one) is saying that two DVR's is the solution to DLB. 

One button DLB on a single DVR is and always the goal.

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

MicroBeta said:


> I just wanted to make sure it's understood that no one(at least I think it's no one) is saying that two DVR's is the solution to DLB.
> Mike


No one except DirecTv


----------



## Flyrx7

For Pete's sake, Directv, can't you see what you're doing to us? 
We'll be eating our young pretty soon, and it won't be pretty!

So, please, please, I'll even beg. We need our DLB! 
Would it help if someone offered to tatoo their forehead with your logo?
We'll start looking for volunteers immediately. I'd do it, but I'm alergic to ink.


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> For Pete's sake, Directv, can't you see what you're doing to us?
> We'll be eating our young pretty soon, and it won't be pretty!
> 
> So, please, please, I'll even beg. We need our DLB!
> Would it help if someone offered to tatoo their forehead with your logo?
> We'll start looking for volunteers immediately. I'd do it, but I'm alergic to ink.


Not having DLB makes watching TV (using work around) feel like I've been tattooed somwhere lower


----------



## boltjames

Flyrx7 said:


> For Pete's sake, Directv, can't you see what you're doing to us?
> We'll be eating our young pretty soon, and it won't be pretty!
> 
> So, please, please, I'll even beg. We need our DLB!
> Would it help if someone offered to tatoo their forehead with your logo?
> We'll start looking for volunteers immediately. I'd do it, but I'm alergic to ink.


It's not going to happen. Ever. I sleep well at night. You?

BJ


----------



## GrumpyBear

I go away for 3 weeks, and we have added over 9 pages, of posts begging for DLB. You have to love it.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> I go away for 3 weeks, and we have added over 9 pages, of posts begging for DLB. You have to love it.


Yeah, and that included a 1 week vacation for the thread  ..


----------



## DBSNewbie

Doug Brott said:


> Yeah, and that included a 1 week vacation for the thread  ..


You know, Doug, if you hadn't brought up the multi-DVR idea (which fanned the flames for awhile) this thread would probably still be on that vacation.


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> I go away for 3 weeks, and we have added over 9 pages, of posts begging for DLB. You have to love it.


I've been away for 5 days and we have 3 pages.

Unfortunately, no real news in those 3 pages.


----------



## kiljoy

Was there any real news in the 91 pages prior to that?

Tony


----------



## Doug Brott

kiljoy said:


> Was there any real news in the 91 pages prior to that?
> 
> Tony


If it's any consolation, I've only got 59 pages


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DBSNewbie said:


> You know, Doug, if you hadn't brought up the multi-DVR idea (which fanned the flames for awhile) this thread would probably still be on that vacation.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

kiljoy said:


> Was there any real news in the 91 pages prior to that?
> 
> Tony


This isn't really a news thread, more of a discussion thread.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

So.... I haven't seen it discussed here, but I thought I'd point out this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134106

Seems that there's been a change in the way the pause points and buffers work. The old DLB workaround had a bunch of steps, and the recording show had to be started from the playlist, etc, etc, etc.....

DeanS stumbled across a change in that though. No longer need to start the recording from the playlist to have your pause point saved.

It's still not DLB, but it's a little baby step closer.

I've learned to live without DLB, but on the rare occasion that I want to use it, I might actually use the "new" DLB Workaround. I know recording a show isn't the ideal, but the fact that I can just hit record and then start jumping between my two channels is much better than the previous workaround.


----------



## DBSNewbie

Sharkie_Fan said:


> So.... I haven't seen it discussed here, but I thought I'd point out this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134106
> 
> Seems that there's been a change in the way the pause points and buffers work. The old DLB workaround had a bunch of steps, and the recording show had to be started from the playlist, etc, etc, etc.....
> 
> DeanS stumbled across a change in that though. No longer need to start the recording from the playlist to have your pause point saved.
> 
> It's still not DLB, but it's a little baby step closer.
> 
> I've learned to live without DLB, but on the rare occasion that I want to use it, I might actually use the "new" DLB Workaround. I know recording a show isn't the ideal, but the fact that I can just hit record and then start jumping between my two channels is much better than the previous workaround.


Thanks, Sharkie. (And DeanS, too)

I agree, although not true DLB, it is a step closer in the right direction. With a smaller number of commands, it seems less of a "workaround"

Anybody know in which software update this new feature was implemented?


----------



## kki000

This is as much dlb as I need.
dlb was only really useful for me during football season.

The fact that it now keeps your place on BOTH tuners has all the functionality i need. 

Now I can watch 2 games again in pseudo real time, just like hr10. WOOT!
It just means a little more list maintenance on deleting recordings.


----------



## tthunder38

Now if it would just allow you to VIEW both chanels via PIP they might be on to something


----------



## Flyrx7

Almost there.
Kudos to Directv for throwing us a bone (albeit a small one).
Definetely a step in the right direction. Until it is actually a one button feature, maybe a quick way to delete the recording in the buffer, maybe a hot key and/or 2 button press solution.

DLB with PIP would be the cherry on top, but I'll surely settle for just plain old DLB.


----------



## ATARI

Flyrx7 said:


> Almost there.
> Kudos to Directv for throwing us a bone (albeit a small one).
> Definetely a step in the right direction. Until it is actually a one button feature, maybe a quick way to delete the recording in the buffer, maybe a hot key and/or 2 button press solution.
> 
> DLB with PIP would be the cherry on top, but I'll surely settle for just plain old DLB.


DLB with PIP would be "something better than DLB". But I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## justlgi

kki000 said:


> This is as much dlb as I need.
> dlb was only really useful for me during football season.
> 
> The fact that it now keeps your place on BOTH tuners has all the functionality i need.
> 
> Now I can watch 2 games again in pseudo real time, just like hr10. WOOT!
> It just means a little more list maintenance on deleting recordings.


This is sick. It's like gas going to $5 then people being happy it dropped to 4.50. Give me a break. :nono2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I'm thinkin' it's a prelude to "something better"

Hmmmmm...:grin: 

Mike


----------



## jimb726

MicroBeta said:


> I'm thinkin' it's a prelude to "something better"
> 
> Hmmmmm...:grin:
> 
> Mike


Mike, now you've gone and opened that can of worms again!!!:lol:


----------



## ATARI

jimb726 said:


> Mike, now you've gone and opened that can of worms again!!!:lol:


Well then, let's go fishing...


----------



## DBSNewbie

This new feature of jumping between shows without going to the playlist is not how I had imagined it.

I was under the impression that in order to retain pause points in two programs, all one needed to do is to Press Record on one program (Channel A), Press Pause, then Tune to another program (Channel B).

After Pressing Pause on Channel B and Pressing PREV, one could then go back to the pause point on Channel A. So far so good...

But, after Pressing PREV, once again, to return to Channel B (regardless of whether or not Channel A was Paused), it DOES NOT return to the point where it had been Paused on Channel B. It just goes back to "Live".

While I do admit that it is an advancement (less button presses to buffer one channel), it's not that much closer to true DLB than I had first thought (buffering two channels).

Recording a program and accessing it through the playlist is still the only way to simulate buffering two channels.


----------



## Doug Brott

DBSNewbie,

Yes, since there are not two live buffers, there is no way to go back in the buffer on the second program. It's like trying to drive across the river without a bridge.


----------



## DeanS

Hi All...

I'm the OP on the "dual live buffer maybe?" thread that I started over in the tips and tricks forum. I'm surprised at the number of responses that thread generated!! After reading the responses, I started wondering if I had described my so-called discovery correctly!!

To repeat the process: I was watching Comic-con on G4. I hit the "record" button. I changed channels (using the Guide) to "Supernatural" on OTA KTLA (5.1) in the L.A. Area. When the "Supernatural" program came to a commercial break, I hit Pause (as in pause live buffer). I hit Previous on the remote and was returned to the G4 program at exactly the point I had paused it. I fast forwarded through the commercial break and resumed watching the program to the next commercial break. I then hit Pause and then Previous. That put me back to the "Supernatural" program at exactly the same point I had paused the live buffer. You know the rest......

Just thought I would re-describe the process I used. I'll try it again soon on some other programming. I know this is not "true DLB" as described in this thread because one program has to be recording, but I found it to be useful and something new I will use in the future.....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> DBSNewbie,
> 
> Yes, since there are not two live buffers, there is no way to go back in the buffer on the second program. It's like trying to drive across the river without a bridge.


Not sure I agree with that. 

If this is intended as a pseudo-DLB, it should be able to return to the live buffer at the pause point...just as the current work around does.

Of course that's assuming that it isn't just and unintended consequence of some other feature (current or planned). 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> Not sure I agree with that.
> 
> If this is intended as a pseudo-DLB, it should be able to return to the live buffer at the pause point...just as the current work around does.
> 
> Of course that's assuming that it isn't just and unintended consequence of some other feature (current or planned).
> 
> Mike


Apparently it does on Tuner 1 which is also the "Live Buffer" .. This is a weird situation. By not starting program A from My Playlist, program A (on tuner 1) is using the Live Buffer .. otherwise, if program A was started from My Playlist, then program A (on tuner 1) would NOT be using the Live buffer which would make that Liver Buffer available for tuner 2. The latter scenario is in effect the DLB workaround that we have all discussed. The former scenario is a new DLB workaround for "surf and turf" if you will .


----------



## puffnstuff

I don't understand , on all of the dvr's with DLB , it never remembers the pause point ( which I like better ) . So why does Directv want to change it and have it remember ? The way I watch football I would constantly be fast forwarding to catch back up , which is just as cumbersome as the workaround .


----------



## DarinC

puffnstuff said:


> I don't understand , on all of the dvr's with DLB , it never remembers the pause point ...


It did on my HR10. I don't understand why you wouldn't want it to remember. If you don't want it to go back to the pause point, then why pause it in the first place? I think I misunderstood?


----------



## puffnstuff

DarinC said:


> It did on my HR10. I don't understand why you wouldn't want it to remember. If you don't want it to go back to the pause point, then why pause it in the first place? I think I misunderstood?


I'm confused , on my 10-250 it never remembers the pause point , that's what I like . I never paused it when switching buffers . But the way it's going , it looks like everytime I switch buffers it will be behind live tv because it is at the pause point .


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> I don't understand , on all of the dvr's with DLB , it never remembers the pause point ( which I like better ) . So why does Directv want to change it and have it remember ? The way I watch football I would constantly be fast forwarding to catch back up , which is just as cumbersome as the workaround .


TiVo does remember the pause point.

To me that is the whole point of DLB.

Watch football game A, it goes to commercial, press pause, switch to football game B, watch until commercial, press pause, go back to game A, FF to end of commercials, repeat process.


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> I'm confused , on my 10-250 it never remembers the pause point , that's what I like . I never paused it when switching buffers . But the way it's going , it looks like everytime I switch buffers it will be behind live tv because it is at the pause point .


Ah, I think I see.

Just switching tuners will not pause the buffer. That is the correct behavior.

But manually pushing pause, then switching tuners back and forth (as my previous post mentions), should save the pause point.

It's a manual, not automatic, pause process. Which is the way my TiVo does it. And the way I hope the HR20 will do it some day.


----------



## puffnstuff

ATARI said:


> Ah, I think I see.
> 
> Just switching tuners will not pause the buffer. That is the correct behavior.
> 
> But manually pushing pause, then switching tuners back and forth (as my previous post mentions), should save the pause point.
> 
> It's a manual, not automatic, pause process. Which is the way my TiVo does it. And the way I hope the HR20 will do it some day.


Exactly , I just hope that Directv , uses that form and not the way it's going now .  But I'm think this is just a small step towards real DLB though . Also the wierd thing is I watch football completly the other way I leave both live and if I see something happened I just rewind and watch it . Which shows even more that it should be a manual option so everybody can use it .


----------



## DBSNewbie

DeanS said:


> Hi All...
> 
> I'm the OP on the "dual live buffer maybe?" thread that I started over in the tips and tricks forum. I'm surprised at the number of responses that thread generated!! After reading the responses, I started wondering if I had described my so-called discovery correctly!!
> 
> To repeat the process: I was watching Comic-con on G4. I hit the "record" button. I changed channels (using the Guide) to "Supernatural" on OTA KTLA (5.1) in the L.A. Area. When the "Supernatural" program came to a commercial break, I hit Pause (as in pause live buffer). I hit Previous on the remote and was returned to the G4 program at exactly the point I had paused it. I fast forwarded through the commercial break and resumed watching the program to the next commercial break. I then hit Pause and then Previous. That put me back to the "Supernatural" program at exactly the same point I had paused the live buffer. You know the rest......
> 
> Just thought I would re-describe the process I used. I'll try it again soon on some other programming. I know this is not "true DLB" as described in this thread because one program has to be recording, but I found it to be useful and something new I will use in the future.....


DeanS,

So, if I'm understanding correctly you were able to establish two pause points - one on the recorded channel and one on another that you had tuned to - without going through the playlist.

It seems that the only difference in your procedure and what I had tried is that you used the Guide to tune into the second channel (OTA 5-1). Is that right?

I have been tuning into the second channel (the non-recording one) by manually pressing the channel numbers. After a series of Pauses and Previous button presses, I am not going to the pause point on the non-recorded channel, but rather to "live".

When I get home today, I will try using the guide and see what happens...


----------



## puffnstuff

DBSNewbie said:


> DeanS,
> 
> So, if I'm understanding correctly you were able to establish two pause points - one on the recorded channel and one on another that you had tuned to - without going through the playlist.
> 
> It seems that the only difference in your procedure and what I had tried is that you used the Guide to tune into the second channel (OTA 5-1). Is that right?
> 
> I have been tuning into the second channel (the non-recording one) by manually pressing the channel numbers. After a series of Pauses and Previous button presses, I am not going to the pause point on the non-recorded channel, but rather to "live".
> 
> When I get home today, I will try using the guide and see what happens...


I can't get it to work the way described either . Unless you are recoding both . Actually if press record then pause , then switch to another channel ( through guide or manually ) press record , then pause , then previous , then pause repeat . It remembers the pause point on both . Now only if you didn't have to record , that would be a huge step .


----------



## Richierich

Actually I no longer have any thoughts about DLB since I have 2 HR10-250s that will be a member of my Home Entertainment Systems for a Long Long Time as a backup system when I NEED DLB!!!


----------



## henryld

Another football season without DLB's is just sorry ( to put it mildly) IMHO.:nono:


----------



## boltjames

I just purchased two HR-21's and I can't seem to jump from one buffer to the other. Like on my HR-10 (which was a Tivo unit) I could hit a button and see 30 minutes in the buffer on Tuner 1 and Tuner 2. On these HR-21's, something's wrong because when I jump around like that there's no program to buffer back-back-back to.

I hope I'm explaining this right. Anyways, if someone can help me I'd really appreciate it.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> I just purchased two HR-21's and I can't seem to jump from one buffer to the other. Like on my HR-10 (which was a Tivo unit) I could hit a button and see 30 minutes in the buffer on Tuner 1 and Tuner 2. On these HR-21's, something's wrong because when I jump around like that there's no program to buffer back-back-back to.
> 
> I hope I'm explaining this right. Anyways, if someone can help me I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> BJ


Dude,

why would you even try that .. aren't you the person who doesn't want DLB?


----------



## boltjames

Doug Brott said:


> Dude,
> 
> why would you even try that .. aren't you the person who doesn't want DLB?


Actually, I missed DLB the other night. There were two things on at once and I really did want to jump between them live and keep the buffer.

What I did was just record the lesser of the two shows, watch the first to its completion, and then go back to the second one. Would have been more convenient to just DLB it.

Now, before someone screams "AH HA!", I'm on record as saying every once in awhile I miss DLB. But I stand firm that all the other upsides of the HR20/1's way, way, way negates the loss of the tiny downside.

BJ


----------



## Doug Brott

boltjames said:


> Now, before someone screams "AH HA!"


:nono2:  .. I suspect there will be a few folks that might have something to say about this development.


----------



## dennisj00

AH HA! I still think he's the D* exec who got fired after nixing DLB!


----------



## DBSNewbie

Doug Brott said:


> Dude,
> 
> why would you even try that .. aren't you the person who doesn't want DLB?


Exactly! I actually had to re-read the post and took a quick second look at the username and avatar to make sure I was reading that correctly. :eek2:


----------



## Flyrx7

Just more troll bait. Easy enough to ignore.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> :nono2:  .. I suspect there will be a few folks that might have something to say about this development.


Or not....:grin:

Mike


----------



## ATARI

boltjames said:


> Actually, I missed DLB the other night. There were two things on at once and I really did want to jump between them live and keep the buffer.
> 
> What I did was just record the lesser of the two shows, watch the first to its completion, and then go back to the second one. Would have been more convenient to just DLB it.
> 
> Now, before someone screams "AH HA!", I'm on record as saying every once in awhile I miss DLB. But I stand firm that all the other upsides of the HR20/1's way, way, way negates the loss of the tiny downside.
> 
> BJ


AH HA!

(and welcome back)


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> Actually, I missed DLB the other night. There were two things on at once and I really did want to jump between them live and keep the buffer.
> 
> What I did was just record the lesser of the two shows, watch the first to its completion, and then go back to the second one. Would have been more convenient to just DLB it.
> 
> Now, before someone screams "AH HA!", I'm on record as saying every once in awhile I miss DLB. But I stand firm that all the other upsides of the HR20/1's way, way, way negates the loss of the tiny downside.
> 
> BJ


"AH HA". I guess that leaves me standing alone in my opinion of DLBs. Never used them, don't see any reason for wasting software programming on them, don't think they belong on a DVR (who watches live TV?). And to top it all off, this whole thread is wasted space! Just my opinion (not hypocritical enough to say my "humble" opinion, who has "humble" opinions anyhow?).

How you doin', BJ?

Rich


----------



## Rich

boltjames said:


> I just purchased two HR-21's and I can't seem to jump from one buffer to the other. Like on my HR-10 (which was a Tivo unit) I could hit a button and see 30 minutes in the buffer on Tuner 1 and Tuner 2. On these HR-21's, something's wrong because when I jump around like that there's no program to buffer back-back-back to.
> 
> I hope I'm explaining this right. Anyways, if someone can help me I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> BJ


My 21s act the same way and I love it!

Rich


----------



## Lord Vader

rich584 said:


> ...don't see any reason for wasting software programming on them, don't think they belong on a DVR (who watches live TV?).


You don't understand DLB then, do you? It's not for watching "live" TV as you state; rather, it's for being able to go back and watch something that *was *live. It's essentially like having the ability to rewind a recording. Therein lies the difference.


----------



## jimb726

Lord Vader said:


> You don't understand DLB then, do you? It's not for watching "live" TV as you state; rather, it's for being able to go back and watch something that *was *live. It's essentially like having the ability to rewind a recording. Therein lies the difference.


Isnt that the definition of a recording? the ability to watch something that *WAS* live?


----------



## gcisko

Doug Brott said:


> DBSNewbie,
> 
> Yes, since there are not two live buffers, there is no way to go back in the buffer on the second program. It's like trying to drive across the river without a bridge.


I think the bridge (DLB) can be implemented if they wanted. That is the difference


----------



## gcisko

DeanS said:


> Hi All...
> 
> I'm the OP on the "dual live buffer maybe?" thread that I started over in the tips and tricks forum. I'm surprised at the number of responses that thread generated!! After reading the responses, I started wondering if I had described my so-called discovery correctly!!
> 
> To repeat the process: I was watching Comic-con on G4. I hit the "record" button. I changed channels (using the Guide) to "Supernatural" on OTA KTLA (5.1) in the L.A. Area. When the "Supernatural" program came to a commercial break, I hit Pause (as in pause live buffer). I hit Previous on the remote and was returned to the G4 program at exactly the point I had paused it. I fast forwarded through the commercial break and resumed watching the program to the next commercial break. I then hit Pause and then Previous. That put me back to the "Supernatural" program at exactly the same point I had paused the live buffer. You know the rest......
> 
> Just thought I would re-describe the process I used. I'll try it again soon on some other programming. I know this is not "true DLB" as described in this thread because one program has to be recording, but I found it to be useful and something new I will use in the future.....


This method has been there for quite some time. Some people use it. It is also not even close to DLB in my opinion. DLB is where I go home and turn on my HR20. I then have a 90 minute buffer for each tuner. I should be able to hit the previous button to see them toggle back and forth between the 2 tuners. This is obviously not how it works now. I think it can be implemented if the want. I remember I was told there was no way 30skip would ever be implemented on the HR20. Well look what happened there.


----------



## MX727

I sent a letter to the Office of the President and they called me today. The representative seemed much more knowledgeable than previous CSR personnel.

He understood exactly what I wanted to do and he was familiar with the workaround. He stated that the problem was that there is only one live addressable cache. Not sure if that is correct, but at least he had a better reason than anyone else at DirecTV has ever told me.

I need to try out my parents unit and see if DeanS is correct on the functionality.

He also confirmed that as long as you keep the HR10s activated, you can keep them when doing the free upgrade to HR2X units.


----------



## MX727

gcisko said:


> This method has been there for quite some time. Some people use it. It is also not even close to DLB in my opinion. DLB is where I go home and turn on my HR20. I then have a 90 minute buffer for each tuner. I should be able to hit the previous button to see them toggle back and forth between the 2 tuners. This is obviously not how it works now. I think it can be implemented if the want. I remember I was told there was no way 30skip would ever be implemented on the HR20. Well look what happened there.


Actually what DeanS is saying is a bit different and requires the same number of keystrokes as our true DLB on the HR10 once you have pressed the record button.

I agree it is not the same as DLB, but it is light years better than the workaround for watching sports.

As I stated above, I need to verify that it works on my parents unit as DeanS has stated before I let one of those boxes in my house.


----------



## DBSNewbie

MX727 said:


> Actually what DeanS is saying is a bit different and requires the same number of keystrokes as our true DLB on the HR10 once you have pressed the record button.
> 
> I agree it is not the same as DLB, but it is light years better than the workaround for watching sports.
> 
> As I stated above, I need to verify that it works on my parents unit as DeanS has stated before I let one of those boxes in my house.


I tried out DeanS's method but cannot establish a pause point on the second channel. In order to to be able to pause and rewind two channels (without going to playlist), I had to press record on both of those channels.

It is a slightly easier workaround (only having to press REC & PREV and not having to access the Playlist), but it is still not true DLB and can still run into some inconveniences.

For example, if you do not pad the end time of the recording of a particular sports program that goes past its scheduled time, then you have to go back to the playlist to access it again (if you had paused that game and want to get back to that pause point, you will end up going to "live".


----------



## gcisko

MX727 said:


> Actually what DeanS is saying is a bit different and requires the same number of keystrokes as our true DLB on the HR10 once you have pressed the record button.
> 
> I agree it is not the same as DLB, but it is light years better than the workaround for watching sports.
> 
> As I stated above, I need to verify that it works on my parents unit as DeanS has stated before I let one of those boxes in my house.


I just re-read DeanS's post. He is recording one show and pausing the live buffer on another show on the second tuner, then toggling between the 2. As far as I know this is essentially the DLB "fix" that many use. I think previously the instructions said to go to LIST and start playing your recorded program first. I do not think it matters. Either way is not acceptable for me


----------



## luckydob

So...when is this better than DLB thing actually going to arrive??? Is it a head fake by D* and just vaporware, much like Duke Nukem Forever?? I mean...they keep telling me that it's going to come, but never really say when.


----------



## Drew2k

luckydob said:


> So...when is this better than DLB thing actually going to arrive??? Is it a head fake by D* and just vaporware, much like Duke Nukem Forever?? I mean...they keep telling me that it's going to come, but never really say when.


To be fair, only one person from DIRECTV passed a comment that something better is coming, and it was only said once. If you can point to other repeated statements from DIRECTV ....


----------



## JAYPB

rich584 said:


> "AH HA". I guess that leaves me standing alone in my opinion of DLBs. Never used them, don't see any reason for wasting software programming on them, don't think they belong on a DVR (who watches live TV?). And to top it all off, this whole thread is wasted space! Just my opinion (not hypocritical enough to say my "humble" opinion, who has "humble" opinions anyhow?).
> 
> How you doin', BJ?
> 
> Rich


I noticed your Avatar....Yankee fan eh? Well, let me give you this scenario....which has happened to me at least 10-20 times this year.

I record Indians games EVERY NIGHT....3:30 recording time. Sometimes games go over this time limit.....most times they don't. Anywho, imagine you are watching a Yankee game...and you want to check on the game at around 10:45'ish just for [Mod edit: Language] and giggles. You notice that your HR2XX is recording at 10:45...but it's not recording your game (obviously) because that stopped at 10:30 and you know that the unit is recording Law and Order...or CSI on the other tuner at 10pm. You turn the TV on...and you are on L&O or CSI...so you flip to 622 at 10:45 and see that the game is now in extra innings!!! Or there was a rain delay that caused it to run long...whatever the case may be. Now, on the HR10-250, you would be able to go to the ORIGINAL TUNER that was recording your game....and GO BACK the 10/15/30 minutes that you missed on your recording....to see just WTF happened to cause the game to go over the 3:30 mark. But, alas, on the HR2X units...you can't.

Your SOL. Is it a price you pay for progress (i.e. more HD channels, MPEG 4 capability)...yes. Is it avoidable? I sure hope so. Because it annoys the ***t out of me when it happens.

And I'm sure that all the other instances of DLB's functionality have been hashed out here over the last XXX months.....and I've done some hashing myself. But I haven't been here in awhile...and seeing your avatar and knowing what happened to me last night when I flipped onto 657-1 at 10:45 to see what was up with the Tribe game *irritated me*.

And hearing people say, "Who watches Live TV" is also a tad bit naive....I have a total of 8 DVR's in my house...and I still watch Live TV. Do I intently pay attention to Live TV...nah. But I do like to fast forward/rewind/jump around through 2 different things at once...without having to record it.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

JAYPB said:


> I noticed your Avatar....Yankee fan eh? Well, let me give you this scenario....which has happened to me at least 10-20 times this year.
> 
> I record Indians games EVERY NIGHT....3:30 recording time. Sometimes games go over this time limit.....most times they don't. Anywho, imagine you are watching a Yankee game...and you want to check on the game at around 10:45'ish just for [Mod edit: Language] and giggles. You notice that your HR2XX is recording at 10:45...but it's not recording your game (obviously) because that stopped at 10:30 and you know that the unit is recording Law and Order...or CSI on the other tuner at 10pm. You turn the TV on...and you are on L&O or CSI...so you flip to 622 at 10:45 and see that the game is now in extra innings!!! Or there was a rain delay that caused it to run long...whatever the case may be. Now, on the HR10-250, you would be able to go to the ORIGINAL TUNER that was recording your game....and GO BACK the 10/15/30 minutes that you missed on your recording....to see just WTF happened to cause the game to go over the 3:30 mark. But, alas, on the HR2X units...you can't.
> 
> Your SOL. Is it a price you pay for progress (i.e. more HD channels, MPEG 4 capability)...yes. Is it avoidable? I sure hope so. Because it annoys the ***t out of me when it happens.
> 
> And I'm sure that all the other instances of DLB's functionality have been hashed out here over the last XXX months.....and I've done some hashing myself. But I haven't been here in awhile...and seeing your avatar and knowing what happened to me last night when I flipped onto 657-1 at 10:45 to see what was up with the Tribe game *irritated me*.
> 
> And hearing people say, "Who watches Live TV" is also a tad bit naive....I have a total of 8 DVR's in my house...and I still watch Live TV. Do I intently pay attention to Live TV...nah. But I do like to fast forward/rewind/jump around through 2 different things at once...without having to record it.


No offense, but you should always pad (add time to) sporting events.


----------



## mikewolf13

Drew2k said:


> To be fair, only one person from DIRECTV passed a comment that something better is coming, and it was only said once. If you can point to other repeated statements from DIRECTV ....


this is true...but it does reflect poorly on the credibility of a cheif officer of the company.


----------



## JAYPB

theratpatrol said:


> No offense, but you should always pad (add time to) sporting events.


There is a 30 minute pad on EVERY game I record every night. That wasn't my point per se. Maybe I should record off the MLB EI channels...where each recording is 6 hours. That would DEFINITELY make my need for 2 tuner DLB moot eh??.....

But it SURE wouldn't be practical now would it? :nono:


----------



## mikewolf13

From: http://gizmodo.com/5030576/verizon-fios-changing-tv-faster-than-att-and-big-cable

Starting with 1.6, you'll be able to stream two HD streams to multiple rooms in the house, even with the current boxes-Verizon's goal is to have feature parity across all hardware. *But one of the more awesome, though subtle, features is the ability to pause a channel, swap to another one, pause it, then go back-so you could juggle two football games or Heroes and football, whatever.*

_edit: Just noticed the URL got truncated, so to be clear this IS NOT a "better than DLB" announcement...lest anyone get too excited.....just a post noting a competitor is modifying their DLB feature (DLB exists now but can't hold pause points). Maybe, industry pressure will add momentum_


----------



## Mike Bertelson

JAYPB said:


> I noticed your Avatar....Yankee fan eh? Well, let me give you this scenario....which has happened to me at least 10-20 times this year.
> 
> I record Indians games EVERY NIGHT....3:30 recording time. Sometimes games go over this time limit.....most times they don't. Anywho, imagine you are watching a Yankee game...and you want to check on the game at around 10:45'ish just for [Mod edit: Language] and giggles. You notice that your HR2XX is recording at 10:45...but it's not recording your game (obviously) because that stopped at 10:30 and you know that the unit is recording Law and Order...or CSI on the other tuner at 10pm. You turn the TV on...and you are on L&O or CSI...so you flip to 622 at 10:45 and see that the game is now in extra innings!!! Or there was a rain delay that caused it to run long...whatever the case may be. Now, on the HR10-250, you would be able to go to the ORIGINAL TUNER that was recording your game....and GO BACK the 10/15/30 minutes that you missed on your recording....to see just WTF happened to cause the game to go over the 3:30 mark. But, alas, on the HR2X units...you can't.
> 
> Your SOL. Is it a price you pay for progress (i.e. more HD channels, MPEG 4 capability)...yes. Is it avoidable? I sure hope so. Because it annoys the ***t out of me when it happens.
> 
> And I'm sure that all the other instances of DLB's functionality have been hashed out here over the last XXX months.....and I've done some hashing myself. But I haven't been here in awhile...and seeing your avatar and knowing what happened to me last night when I flipped onto 657-1 at 10:45 to see what was up with the Tribe game *irritated me*.
> 
> And hearing people say, "Who watches Live TV" is also a tad bit naive....I have a total of 8 DVR's in my house...and I still watch Live TV. Do I intently pay attention to Live TV...nah. But I do like to fast forward/rewind/jump around through 2 different things at once...without having to record it.


Since you're merely pointing out a potential problem of not having DLB, I understand your frustration. 

However, the only way this works in your favor is if the live tuner is on what is recording at 10pm. Otherwise you'll loose the buffer on ch 657-1 anyway. Unless I'm not understanding what you trying to say.

I wish the Mets games would fit within the scheduled run times. They almost always run over. I have to pad every game I record and I don't think having true DLB would help me with that. :grin:

Mike


----------



## dbronstein

JAYPB said:


> There is a 30 minute pad on EVERY game I record every night. That wasn't my point per se. Maybe I should record off the MLB EI channels...where each recording is 6 hours. That would DEFINITELY make my need for 2 tuner DLB moot eh??.....
> 
> But it SURE wouldn't be practical now would it? :nono:


So why not pad an hour or hour and a half? That would be a simple solution to the specific problem you described.


----------



## JAYPB

MicroBeta said:


> Since you're merely pointing out a potential problem of not having DLB, I understand your frustration.
> 
> However, the only way this works in your favor is if the live tuner is on what is recording at 10pm. Otherwise you'll loose the buffer on ch 657-1 anyway. Unless I'm not understanding what you trying to say.
> 
> I wish the Mets games would fit within the scheduled run times. They almost always run over. I have to pad every game I record and I don't think having true DLB would help me with that. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Almost exclusively, when these instances happen, I have something recording from the 10pm-11pm hour on the other tuner...and I don't have something else recording until 11pm again...so I have a tuner available to record from 10:30-11...ergo on the 10-250 when this sort of thing would happen I'd be able to switch to the other tuner...which was still buffering the game...and just hit record or simply rewind to watch what had happened (if I wanted to watch the end of the game before the beginning).


----------



## Mike Bertelson

JAYPB said:


> Almost exclusively, when these instances happen, I have something recording from the 10pm-11pm hour on the other tuner...and I don't have something else recording until 11pm again...so I have a tuner available to record from 10:30-11...ergo on the 10-250 when this sort of thing would happen I'd be able to switch to the other tuner...which was still buffering the game...and just hit record or simply rewind to watch what had happened (if I wanted to watch the end of the game before the beginning).


Yes, it was me, I didn't follow the time line correctly...Sorry. :grin:

You are absoutely correct. It would work the way you have described it.

Mike


----------



## dbronstein

JAYPB said:


> Almost exclusively, when these instances happen, I have something recording from the 10pm-11pm hour on the other tuner...and I don't have something else recording until 11pm again...so I have a tuner available to record from 10:30-11...ergo on the 10-250 when this sort of thing would happen I'd be able to switch to the other tuner...which was still buffering the game...and just hit record or simply rewind to watch what had happened (if I wanted to watch the end of the game before the beginning).


Again, why not pad your recording by an hour to cover the 10:30-11 slot?


----------



## JAYPB

dbronstein said:


> Again, why not pad your recording by an hour to cover the 10:30-11 slot?


I'll make sure when I do this padding I go ahead and add a 1TB HD for all the additional 1 hours worth of recording time I have to include per night. I may have 7-8 games on my HR20 before I sit down and watch them in a block. I obviously know the outcome at that point...but I still try and check the 10:30 time slot each night to make sure I've gotten a full recording of each game. If this was a DVR I used to just record games, sure that would be fine. But it's not.

Also, quite a few network shows now start at 10:58pm (i.e. Rescue Me on FX). So, it's *kind of difficult* to pad the game till 11...when Rescue Me starts at 10:58 on FX...and I'm recording from 10-11:01 on another Tuner for L&O or something else. If I had a DLB functionality, I'd be able to simply rewind to the point my recording stopped, and pick up the game from there...without missing a thing. If another recording starts at 10:58 pm and the tuner changes to that channel...so be it. I can move my fat arse over to another TV to watch the game if it's still on....but I wouldn't have MISSED any part of it!!!

Either way, it's an annoyance. There are 2 tuners there (obviously). Workarounds suck IMHO.... Bottom line. It was a neglectful subtraction from the previous HD DVR the company was supplying (even if it wasn't a D* labeled product).

But hey, that's just me. Workarounds aren't my cup of tea. (i.e padding beyond where I'm already padding, pausing, hitting previous, hopping on 1 foot, running around in a circle while tuning in a local channel in the guide and HOPING that a pause point holds, etc.....)

:nono:


----------



## Doug Brott

JAYPB said:


> But hey, that's just me. Workarounds aren't my cup of tea. (i.e padding beyond where I'm already padding, pausing, hitting previous, hopping on 1 foot, running around in a circle while tuning in a local channel in the guide and HOPING that a pause point holds, etc.....)


I'm pretty sure hopping on one foot doesn't help, but I have heard that running around in a circle sometimes clears up a blurry picture


----------



## vankai

Doug Brott said:


> I'm pretty sure hopping on one foot doesn't help, but I have heard that running around in a circle sometimes clears up a blurry picture


That reminds me, last week my wife was telling me about a show she had just watched. I asked if she taped it, in which she replied "No, But let me check to see if it's in the Hopper!!!"

Hence, this is my informal request to change the acronym to DLH <dual live hoppers>. 

NOTE: program was in the hopper, she recorded it, i watched it, everybodys happy.

I did explain the word buffer was what she was looking for, but her only comment was that she doesn't talk geek speak.


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## MX727

Tell her they are buckets and then the rest of us won't have to change our acronym.


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## James Long

It is the hopper ... it allows you to hop back within the program.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

JAYPB said:


> I'll make sure when I do this padding I go ahead and add a 1TB HD for all the additional 1 hours worth of recording time I have to include per night. I may have 7-8 games on my HR20 before I sit down and watch them in a block. I obviously know the outcome at that point...but I still try and check the 10:30 time slot each night to make sure I've gotten a full recording of each game. If this was a DVR I used to just record games, sure that would be fine. But it's not.
> 
> Also, quite a few network shows now start at 10:58pm (i.e. Rescue Me on FX). So, it's *kind of difficult* to pad the game till 11...when Rescue Me starts at 10:58 on FX...and I'm recording from 10-11:01 on another Tuner for L&O or something else. If I had a DLB functionality, I'd be able to simply rewind to the point my recording stopped, and pick up the game from there...without missing a thing. If another recording starts at 10:58 pm and the tuner changes to that channel...so be it. I can move my fat arse over to another TV to watch the game if it's still on....but I wouldn't have MISSED any part of it!!!
> 
> Either way, it's an annoyance. There are 2 tuners there (obviously). Workarounds suck IMHO.... Bottom line. It was a neglectful subtraction from the previous HD DVR the company was supplying (even if it wasn't a D* labeled product).
> 
> But hey, that's just me. Workarounds aren't my cup of tea. (i.e padding beyond where I'm already padding, pausing, hitting previous, hopping on 1 foot, running around in a circle while tuning in a local channel in the guide and HOPING that a pause point holds, etc.....)
> 
> :nono:


Sounds to me like you need another DVR.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *148 8.20%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 282 15.62%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 135 7.48% *
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1171 64.88%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 69 3.82%*
Voters: *1805*

Replies 2,402 
Views 79,753

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## Doug Brott

Que,

I think we can all agree that DLB is something that would be nice to have ..


----------



## inkahauts

luckydob said:


> So...when is this better than DLB thing actually going to arrive??? Is it a head fake by D* and just vaporware, much like Duke Nukem Forever?? I mean...they keep telling me that it's going to come, but never really say when.





Drew2k said:


> To be fair, only one person from DIRECTV passed a comment that something better is coming, and it was only said once. If you can point to other repeated statements from DIRECTV ....





mikewolf13 said:


> this is true...but it does reflect poorly on the credibility of a cheif officer of the company.


Ah, how does it reflect poorly, exactly? He said it was coming.. never said when... and the latest ce for the HR2x's has an additional feature that is another step in the direction of having DLB or something like that and more... It may not becoming fast, but I think it appears as though its coming...


----------



## Nicholsen

Doug Brott said:


> Que,
> 
> I think we can all agree that DLB is something that would be nice to have ..


I think Que's point is that roughly 2/3 of the users consider DLB a must have.

Is there a high-end DVR without DLB?

It's sort of like a PC that can't do multi-tasking. You could choose to design a new PC operating system that won't do multi-tasking, but why would you?


----------



## JAYPB

theratpatrol said:


> Sounds to me like you need another DVR.


You mean 5 HR2X's aren't enough....? :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> I think Que's point is that roughly 2/3 of the users consider DLB a must have.


Yet at the same time those people are still here .. asking why there is no DLB. We can debate semantics, but I'm not going there .. I stand by my comment.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> Yet at the same time those people are still here .. asking why there is no DLB. We can debate semantics, but I'm not going there .. I stand by my comment.


Not everyone here has jumped on the HR2X platform. I've been waiting for some time with my SD boxes and HD/OTA HTPC. DLB isn't quite a deal breaker, but given the rock solid dependability of my SD boxes, DLB coupled with the ongoing issues (not for everyone, but for some) are keeping me on the HR2X sideline for now.

So, while I'm certain I'm in the minority, some who are commenting on DLB aren't on the HR2X wagon.


----------



## christo76

Well I am pissed at D* again. Not sure when they did it, but they fixed the one 'bug' that was actually helpful.

For quite awhile I was able to deal with the lack of DLB using the recording methods (which do suck), and if a program went a bit long and my recording ended, I knew I could go into guide and have it record the next show, and as long as 2 new shows weren't recording, it would catch the rest of my game from the point the main recording ended.

THEY GOT RID OF IT. Now if I record it eliminates the entire buffer, unless I am on that channel (which every sportsfan knows you can't be, cuz if you accidently exit the playback of the game, you will be flashed the live score and ruin it for you).

GIVE ME A REAL F'N DLB. Screw messing around with network connections and other crap that cause the DVR's to freeze up and give us the basic function that nearly everyother dvr has...


----------



## GrumpyBear

So now even the work around doesn't work? Maybe that means the something better is right around the corner, so you will be forced to use it. Rather its better or not.


----------



## Richierich

Well, I tried this new method and the old method and they both worked on my HR21-700. The new method seemed to take me back to Live TV but not at the point where I had paused it but at the end of the buffer. 

I will try it again this weekend to make sure.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Well, I tried this new method and the old method and they both worked on my HR21-700. The new method seemed to take me back to Live TV but not at the point where I had paused it but at the end of the buffer.
> 
> I will try it again this weekend to make sure.


Don't get too hung up on this new method...its an interim step to where they really want to take things...


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> Well, I tried this new method and the old method and they both worked on my HR21-700. The new method seemed to take me back to Live TV but not at the point where I had paused it but at the end of the buffer.
> 
> I will try it again this weekend to make sure.


You are correct about where the "new" method takes you. The following options are available in 0x254/0x255:

-) Toggle between a recorded program and the single Live TV buffer

-) Toggle between the single Live TV buffer and the other tuner (which has no buffer)

Previously only the first option was available.

I say it the way I have above because it makes a little more sense. In reality the single Live TV buffer switches along as you move to the other tuner. However, when you go back to the first tuner it was as if you were still in the original Live TV buffer - even though technically you weren't .. you were in the recording buffer. While it's not perfect and only works in one direction, it's probably as close to DLB as we've ever been.


----------



## 94SupraTT

Doug Brott said:


> You are correct about where the "new" method takes you. The following options are available in 0x254/0x255:
> 
> -) Toggle between a recorded program and the single Live TV buffer
> 
> -) Toggle between the single Live TV buffer and the other tuner (which has no buffer)
> 
> Previously only the first option was available.
> 
> I say it the way I have above because it makes a little more sense. In reality the single Live TV buffer switches along as you move to the other tuner. However, when you go back to the first tuner it was as if you were still in the original Live TV buffer - even though technically you weren't .. you were in the recording buffer. While it's not perfect and only works in one direction, it's probably as close to DLB as we've ever been.


This new "workaround" is much better than the 10 ket stroke workaround. Even though once I switch back to the live unrecorded program it is about 1 second off its still much better than the old workaround. I used DLB mainly during football season and I always had the Bears recording so this new workaround will be fine. Its not ideal for my situation however it is an improvement.


----------



## Que

Nicholsen said:


> I think Que's point is that roughly 2/3 of the users consider DLB a must have.
> 
> Is there a high-end DVR without DLB?
> 
> It's sort of like a PC that can't do multi-tasking. You could choose to design a new PC operating system that won't do multi-tasking, but why would you?


I just post the stats.. I try and post them every 1st of the month and every 500 increments.

Wish D* would just do a mass mailing or have in the comment section of the bill. "What features do you want in a DVR?"


----------



## Que

RCY said:


> Not everyone here has jumped on the HR2X platform. I've been waiting for some time with my SD boxes and HD/OTA HTPC. DLB isn't quite a deal breaker, but given the rock solid dependability of my SD boxes, DLB coupled with the ongoing issues (not for everyone, but for some) are keeping me on the HR2X sideline for now.
> 
> So, while I'm certain I'm in the minority, some who are commenting on DLB aren't on the HR2X wagon.


+++

When I bought the HR10, I knew that the HR20 was going to be release in a few months. I told them that I wanted to upgrade when it came out. Got a free upgrade to it. I'm sure that is still in my notes but, when it did get released there were tons of bugs and found out there was no DLB. So I just waited. I'm sure with a little more time DLB will come to the plus line.


----------



## John Nadeau

Doug Brott said:


> You are correct about where the "new" method takes you. The following options are available in 0x254/0x255:
> 
> -) Toggle between a recorded program and the single Live TV buffer
> 
> -) Toggle between the single Live TV buffer and the other tuner (which has no buffer)
> 
> Previously only the first option was available.
> 
> I say it the way I have above because it makes a little more sense. In reality the single Live TV buffer switches along as you move to the other tuner. However, when you go back to the first tuner it was as if you were still in the original Live TV buffer - even though technically you weren't .. you were in the recording buffer. While it's not perfect and only works in one direction, it's probably as close to DLB as we've ever been.


Can someone outline how to perform the two methods above ?


----------



## DBSNewbie

John Nadeau said:


> Can someone outline how to perform the two methods above ?


*-) Toggle between a recorded program and the single Live TV buffer*

Tune to Channel A. Press RECORD. Press LIST. Choose program which you just recorded. (Play it)

Tune to Channel B (This new channel will now have the Live TV Buffer)

Press PREV to toggle between Channels A and B. Pause points and ability to rewind to beginning of recording/buffer retained on both programs.

*-) Toggle between the single Live TV buffer and the other tuner (which has no buffer)*

Tune to Channel A. Press RECORD.

Tune to Channel B. (This new channel will NOT have a Live TV Buffer)

Press PREV to toggle between Channels A and B. Pause points and ability to rewind to beginning of recording will ONLY be retained on Channel A. Channel B will go to "Live" every time you tune back into it.


----------



## bonscott87

DBSNewbie said:


> *-) Toggle between the single Live TV buffer and the other tuner (which has no buffer)*
> 
> Tune to Channel A. Press RECORD.
> 
> Tune to Channel B. (This new channel will NOT have a Live TV Buffer)
> 
> Press PREV to toggle between Channels A and B. Pause points will ONLY we retained on Channel A. Channel B will go to "Live" every time you tune back into it.


What's funny is that when I used to actually watch Sunday Ticket with a DVR (before I got HD 6 years ago, no HD DVR) and used DLB this is exactly how I used DLB. I would record my Bears and then use the other tuner to flip around live TV. So in effect now I could actually use DLB the way I did use it before. Interesting.


----------



## bonscott87

DBSNewbie said:


> *-) Toggle between a recorded program and the single Live TV buffer*
> 
> Tune to Channel A. Press RECORD. Press LIST. Choose program which you just recorded. (Play it)
> 
> Tune to Channel B (This new channel will now have the Live TV Buffer)
> 
> Press PREV to toggle between Channels A and B. Pause points retained on both programs.


Now correct me if I'm wrong but this is darn close to the way DLB actually works on the DirecTivo. Only extra step is that you need to record on one tuner and start playing from the List. But after that it's pretty much like DLB on the DirecTivo, correct?


----------



## Doug Brott

John Nadeau said:


> Can someone outline how to perform the two methods above ?


*Workaround #1 - toggle between Live TV Buffer and recorded program*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #1*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..


*Workaround #2 - toggle between recording Buffer tuner 2 (not buffered)*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #2*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and watch Live TV
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> Show 2 buffer will be gone once you toggle to Show 1
> You can channel surf on Tuner 2 while Show 1 continues to be buffered/recorded
> Show 1 continues to move forward in time if you do not press {PAUSE}
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x254 and above ..


Keep in mind with Workaround #2 .. You can channel surf until your heart is content on Tuner 2. Each time you change to a new channel on Tuner 2, the buffer will be flushed. If you key in the channel number for Show 1 (the buffered/recorded program), then you will have full access to that program .. kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner.


----------



## Doug Brott

DBSNewbie said:


> Tune to Channel B. (This new channel will NOT have a Live TV Buffer)


Technically, it will  .. BUT .. as soon as you switch back to Channel A .. so does the Live TV buffer .. making it go away on Channel B ..


----------



## bullitt

Doug Brott said:


> *Workaround #1 - toggle between Live TV Buffer and recorded program*
> 
> *Workaround #2 - toggle between recording Buffer tuner 2 (not buffered)*
> 
> kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner.


Kinda like being rich but having no money


----------



## Doug Brott

bullitt said:


> Kinda like being rich but having no money


yup .. you can either complain about it or make use of the tools you have .. personally I choose the latter.


----------



## bullitt

Doug Brott said:


> yup .. you can either complain about it or make use of the tools you have .. personally I choose the latter.


No complaint, just found your justification of a poor workaround to a well established flaw as ironic.


----------



## PAJeep

I have been looking through the holy grail book of dvr's and I cant find where it says DLB is a requirement. Can someone give me the page number? thanks.


----------



## raott

PAJeep said:


> I have been looking through the holy grail book of dvr's and I cant find where it says DLB is a requirement. Can someone give me the page number? thanks.


Can't give you a page number on a requirement but you can see the Tivo, Dish, Fios and Motorola manuals on how to use DLB.


----------



## Que

raott said:


> Can't give you a page number on a requirement but you can see the Tivo, Dish, Fios and Motorola manuals on how to use DLB.


MicroBeta has a few page numbers: post #1488



MicroBeta said:


> Cox, Quick Reference guide, page 18, Motorola - 60 minutes
> Cablevision Optium IO, Getting Started, page 2, Motorola - 60 minutes
> ViP622, chapter 8, page 54 - 60 minutes
> Att U-verse, Features Guide, page 8 - 90 minutes
> TWC, Scientific Atlanta, User's Guide, front page - 60 minutes
> 
> Just a few
> 
> Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

bullitt said:


> No complaint, just found your justification of a poor workaround to a well established flaw as ironic.


It wasn't justification .. more a statement of the way it is. kinda like .. yes .. but actually DLB .. no. Don't use if if you don't find it useful.


----------



## luckydob

Drew2k said:


> To be fair, only one person from DIRECTV passed a comment that something better is coming, and it was only said once. If you can point to other repeated statements from DIRECTV ....


Well...Earl said it, and he is now D*...sure at the time he wasn't but you know it's been touted for almost a year now one way or another.


----------



## Doug Brott

luckydob said:


> Well...Earl said it, and he is now D*...sure at the time he wasn't but you know it's been touted for almost a year now one way or another.


I'm no so sure about that .. I certainly don't remember Earl saying DLB was coming.


----------



## GrumpyBear

luckydob said:


> Well...Earl said it, and he is now D*...sure at the time he wasn't but you know it's been touted for almost a year now one way or another.


Only thing's Earl has said, is DLB is possible as the chipset is the same as others, and that yes something better was being worked on. The rest of the time it seems like Earl has to put out fires, of people misspeaking or misquoting things.

All in All, the only time anything has been mentioned was a off the record, off hand remark from the D* CTO. I don't think anybody has seen an official or unoffical document about DLB and why D* doesn't make it work, or what they think is better than DLB, and coming out sometime down the road.


----------



## luckydob

Doug Brott said:


> I'm no so sure about that .. I certainly don't remember Earl saying DLB was coming.


Earl didn't say that...he DID say something better was coming. So did D*. To date...Nothing has happened. It's been a LONG time since both were announced. Disappointing at best.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

luckydob said:


> Earl didn't say that...he DID say something better was coming. So did D*. To date...Nothing has happened. It's been a LONG time since both were announced. Disappointing at best.


Its only been 3 months since the "something better" was announced. We have no idea at that point where in the development process the "something better" might have been... in the grand scheme of things, I don't think that 3 months is a long time. Another 3 months without a hint of what is to come, and then I'd say we're getting into a long amount of time for nothing to have surfaced.

I actually thought Earl had said at one point that they were "exploring how to implement DLB", but I don't see that anywhere, so maybe I'm making it up!

I see alot of posts from Earl stating that DLB "is not coming soon" and that there is "no active plan to add DLB", but that it is "not off the table".

It wasn't until the chat it May where it as said "something better is coming" that Earl said anything other than "don't hold your breath".


----------



## DarinC

PAJeep said:


> I have been looking through the holy grail book of dvr's and I cant find where it says DLB is a requirement. Can someone give me the page number? thanks.


Page 11.


----------



## General Custer

It's pretty pathetic the pace the Directv uses with regard to the HR20/1 software. I constantly read the Cutting Edge notes and the majority of the info is regarding bug fixes. The new features list is so small and usually involves features that most don't know about or care about.

They have been promising this great feature for the past few months. Shouldn't they be testing it in the CE program like now if its going to come out soon?

They have been promising MRV for what 2 years. Where is that? Instead they spend time working on media share. Our customers have a brand new $2000 HDTV in the livingroom and maybe another in the bedroom. Lets spend a whole lot of time coming up with software so they can watch recorded programs on their 17 or 19 inch computer monitor instead of sharing program between the DVRs. Makes a whole lotta sense there.

For comparison DISH promises 1080 capable recievers and boom like 2 days later they get a software update.

I originally left DISH for Directv for 2 main reasons- the YES network, TIVO stable 2 tuner DVRs. The TIVO DVR was better then dish's becasue they outsourced it to a company that knew what it was doing, had two tuners, was rock solid and had DLB. Directv seems to have only cared about the 2 tuner part of the formula.

Bring out DLB or at least have the testes to come and out say why you can't or won't. 

And stop trying to derail the demand for DLB by saying something better is coming. Tell us what that is and don't just try to distract us from what we want.


----------



## mikewolf13

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Its only been 3 months since the "something better" was announced. We have no idea at that point where in the development process the "something better" might have been...


I get the feeling 3 months ago was day 1 in the "something better than DLB" development.


----------



## Doug Brott

General Custer said:


> It's pretty pathetic the pace the Directv uses with regard to the HR20/1 software. I constantly read the Cutting Edge notes and the majority of the info is regarding bug fixes. The new features list is so small and usually involves features that most don't know about or care about.


Well, since this isn't the cutting Edge forum, there's not much to talk about



General Custer said:


> They have been promising this great feature for the past few months. Shouldn't they be testing it in the CE program like now if its going to come out soon?
> 
> They have been promising MRV for what 2 years. Where is that? Instead they spend time working on media share. Our customers have a brand new $2000 HDTV in the livingroom and maybe another in the bedroom. Lets spend a whole lot of time coming up with software so they can watch recorded programs on their 17 or 19 inch computer monitor instead of sharing program between the DVRs. Makes a whole lotta sense there.


Has DIRECTV been promising MRV for 2 years? I know when I visited CES this past January not one person mentioned MRV. I don't recall it being mentioned the previous year either. I think you're mistaking the enthusiasts of this forum "thinking" that there will be MRV with a promise from DIRECTV.



General Custer said:


> For comparison DISH promises 1080 capable recievers and boom like 2 days later they get a software update.
> 
> I originally left DISH for Directv for 2 main reasons- the YES network, TIVO stable 2 tuner DVRs. The TIVO DVR was better then dish's becasue they outsourced it to a company that knew what it was doing, had two tuners, was rock solid and had DLB. Directv seems to have only cared about the 2 tuner part of the formula.


I believe you can still use your TiVo with DIRECTV ..



General Custer said:


> Bring out DLB or at least have the testes to come and out say why you can't or won't.


Unfortunately, DIRECTV doesn't make their engineering direction available. Some of DIRECTV's competitors read these forums.



General Custer said:


> And stop trying to derail the demand for DLB by saying something better is coming. Tell us what that is and don't just try to distract us from what we want.


Uh, this was said exactly one time so actually, it has stopped.


----------



## mikewolf13

General Custer said:


> They have been promising MRV for what 2 years. Where is that?


Ironically the Dtivo was capable of MRV. Remember the vaporware directtv2Go? your DTivo was capable 3 years ago....and of course DLB..

but still we wait for stability while they can't master what channels we receive and over 50 series.....

just some perspective....

HD is great but that's content not DVR related.so while DTV may get high marks for content the DVR line should not in my opinion.


----------



## Lord Vader

mikewolf13 said:


> Ironically the Dtivo was capable of MRV.


And if I'm not mistaken, didn't DirecTV begin disabling MRV in most of the TIVOs when they started rolling out version 6.x?

I've been a DirecTV customer for well over 11 years, but I must admit, I have been perpetually baffled by their inability--or, perhaps more accurately, their refusal--to implement features that their competitors have, features a lot more appealing and practical than the trivial ones the HR20/21 models possess.


----------



## mikewolf13

Lord Vader said:


> And if I'm not mistaken, didn't DirecTV begin disabling MRV in most of the TIVOs when they started rolling out version 6.x?
> 
> I've been a DirecTV customer for well over 11 years, but I must admit, I have been perpetually baffled by their inability--or, perhaps more accurately, their refusal--to implement features that their competitors have, features a lot more appealing and practical than the trivial ones the HR20/21 models possess.


They never allowed MRV to be enabled in the DTivos.... they wanted to handicap the Dtivos in favor of their (at that time ) upcoming DVR+ line.

Why they handicapped their own DVRs no one knows


----------



## bonscott87

Lord Vader said:


> And if I'm not mistaken, didn't DirecTV begin disabling MRV in most of the TIVOs when they started rolling out version 6.x?
> 
> I've been a DirecTV customer for well over 11 years, but I must admit, I have been perpetually baffled by their inability--or, perhaps more accurately, their refusal--to implement features that their competitors have, features a lot more appealing and practical than the trivial ones the HR20/21 models possess.


Actually the *real* reason why DirecTV "handicapped" the DirecTivo's is because they were so hackable. They certainly didn't want to get in trouble with the MPAA and so forth for freely allowing shows/movies to be copied to the computer. It was able to do that anyway with hacks and that led to the R10 which made it a lot harder to hack, but still doable. You all do notice that the DirecTV DVR+ series so far isn't hackable and for a good reason.

People always seem to shove this under the rug but the hackability of the Tivo's and ability to "pirate" content (in the eyes of Hollywood) is one of the top reasons why DirecTV parted ways with Tivo. Tivo couldn't or wouldn't plug the holes and DirecTV said bye bye.


----------



## Nicholsen

bonscott87 said:


> People always seem to shove this under the rug but the hackability of the Tivo's and ability to "pirate" content (in the eyes of Hollywood) is one of the top reasons why DirecTV parted ways with Tivo. Tivo couldn't or wouldn't plug the holes and DirecTV said bye bye.


That is an interesting theory. Can you point us to any supporting evidence to back it up?


----------



## Lord Vader

It's a theory not borne of anything provable.


----------



## MrDad0330

Well, lets fight nice. To me, maybe the "something better"is coming" promised 3 months ago was broadcast in 1080p. Who knows, but Dish just beat them to the punch. I am satisfied with my HR20-100 but to this day, my D-tivos remain easier for the common person to use. "D's" HR series has some impressive features which only appeal to a few IMO. For basic watching and enjoyment of TV and HDTV, just give me DLB's. For the average "joe" customer, I am impressed by the network capabilities of the HR series but in all honesty...its not imporant. I just want a reliable system that is easy to use and has DLB's. 
I am a very loyal customer of "D" (since May 1995)but I am also disappointed in "Ds" lack of care to what the average DVR customer finds appealing. I can work around the lack of DLB's but its a pain. DLB's made Tivo that much more fun. Oh well....wishful thinking


----------



## the new guy

I voted in the poll a while ago, anticipating how I would feel about the lack of DLB when I eventually upgraded to the HR-series DVR's. The dual buffer is a feature that is sorely missed in my house, and will be even more missed by my wife once college football starts. I have tried to explain the workaround methods to her, but she just wants it to work, easily.

I can't speculate on what could be better than DLB, but I hope it's dual buffers. 

Tim


----------



## Doug Brott

the new guy said:


> I voted in the poll a while ago ...


I guess you're not really the new guy anymore :grin:


----------



## raott

bonscott87 said:


> Actually the *real* reason why DirecTV "handicapped" the DirecTivo's is because they were so hackable. They certainly didn't want to get in trouble with the MPAA and so forth for freely allowing shows/movies to be copied to the computer. It was able to do that anyway with hacks and that led to the R10 which made it a lot harder to hack, but still doable. You all do notice that the DirecTV DVR+ series so far isn't hackable and for a good reason.


Really? Because I've seen a former mod here, in his defense of D* (in response to posts blaming D* for the handicapped DirecTivos), strongly allude to, if not outright blame Tivo for the handicapping - because Tivo wanted to differentiate the stand alones (giving them more features) - his reason had nothing to do with the MPAA or anyone else.


----------



## Richierich

bonscott87 said:


> Actually the *real* reason why DirecTV "handicapped" the DirecTivo's is because they were so hackable. They certainly didn't want to get in trouble with the MPAA and so forth for freely allowing shows/movies to be copied to the computer. It was able to do that anyway with hacks and that led to the R10 which made it a lot harder to hack, but still doable. You all do notice that the DirecTV DVR+ series so far isn't hackable and for a good reason.
> 
> People always seem to shove this under the rug but the hackability of the Tivo's and ability to "pirate" content (in the eyes of Hollywood) is one of the top reasons why DirecTV parted ways with Tivo. Tivo couldn't or wouldn't plug the holes and DirecTV said bye bye.


I thought that the "REAL REASON" Directv broke from Tivo was so they could control their own destiny by controlling their own platform, how it looked, how it worked without having to pay licensing fees to someone else. This makes great business sense in the long run to be able to control your product directly.

Wow, was I FOOLED!!!


----------



## mikewolf13

Nicholsen said:


> That is an interesting theory. Can you point us to any supporting evidence to back it up?


I'd believe this if Ipod's (or other mp3 players) didn't allow illegal downloads, or if DRM for music wan't going away entirely...or if not eveyrone who could hack a dvr didn't also likely have DVD copying software....

DTV didn't disable it because of Tivo2GO, or they wouldn't have announced Direct2GO

They didn't disable MRV because of piracy concerns...

they did those things to make their upcoming product more attractive...as they promised all the things the TIVO "couldn't" do.


----------



## ATARI

mikewolf13 said:


> I'd believe this if Ipod's (or other mp3 players) didn't allow illegal downloads, or if DRM for music wan't going away entirely...or if not eveyrone who could hack a dvr didn't also likely have DVD copying software....
> 
> DTV didn't disable it because of Tivo2GO, or they wouldn't have announced Direct2GO
> 
> They didn't disable MRV because of piracy concerns...
> 
> they did those things to make their upcoming product more attractive...as they promised all the things the TIVO "couldn't" do.


Then it looks like that strategy backfired, as here we are two years later, and the HRs don't have DLB or MRV.


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> Really? Because I've seen a former mod here, in his defense of D* (in response to posts blaming D* for the handicapped DirecTivos), strongly allude to, if not outright blame Tivo for the handicapping - because Tivo wanted to differentiate the stand alones (giving them more features) - his reason had nothing to do with the MPAA or anyone else.


Absolutely false and I challenge you to find the passage that you are so sure was said. If anything, Earl said that TiVo wanted more money for the features .. Not sure how that applies to TiVo wanting to differentiate the models.


----------



## Doug Brott

mikewolf13 said:


> I'd believe this if Ipod's (or other mp3 players) didn't allow illegal downloads, or if DRM for music wan't going away entirely...or if not eveyrone who could hack a dvr didn't also likely have DVD copying software....
> 
> DTV didn't disable it because of Tivo2GO, or they wouldn't have announced Direct2GO
> 
> They didn't disable MRV because of piracy concerns...
> 
> they did those things to make their upcoming product more attractive...as they promised all the things the TIVO "couldn't" do.


I'm not sure where you're coming up with this stuff .. bonscott seemed to nail this one on the head from where I sit.


----------



## bonscott87

richierich said:


> I thought that the "REAL REASON" Directv broke from Tivo was so they could control their own destiny by controlling their own platform, how it looked, how it worked without having to pay licensing fees to someone else. This makes great business sense in the long run to be able to control your product directly.
> 
> Wow, was I FOOLED!!!


Notice I said that is this "real" reason for the DirecTivo's being "handicapped", not for why DirecTV no longer works with Tivo. There is a difference. All my opinion of course but one only needs to look at the whole situation, posts on various forums at the time and the quarterly financial calls to piece it all together.

I think one of the main reasons for the breakup itself was because DirecTV saw how rabid Tivo fans were and could see that people were becoming more loyal to Tivo then to DirecTV. You still see that now with some going to cable simply so they can have Tivo, even if they get less channels or worse service. Well DirecTV (nor any company frankly) can't have any of that. You don't want your customer base more loyal to something you don't own or control. If they allowed that to continue over time you'd have say half your customer base (8 million of 16 million now) that were "at risk" to Tivo. If Tivo up and said "well now, we control half your customer base, well you now need to pay us triple because you have no choice" or "well if you want that new feature then it's going to really cost you, guess what, you have no choice because we control half your customer base". There isn't a company out there that would allow this to happen. So when DirecTV started seeing this happen they decided not to get into that situation and go their own way, for good or ill depending on your point of view. Sure they might lose some customers along the way but in the *long* run, as in 5+ years they would be better for it.


----------



## puffnstuff

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I actually thought Earl had said at one point that they were "exploring how to implement DLB", but I don't see that anywhere, so maybe I'm making it up!.


Your not crazy it's in the old thread . That's the reason I stayed . But here we are almost 2 years later and still nothing .


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm pretty sure that Earl said that, but then he later (and more frequently) said that DLB was not being actively developed. Priorities change. No one actively misled anyone. All we can do is report what we believe to be true at the moment.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> Actually the *real* reason why DirecTV "handicapped" the DirecTivo's is because they were so hackable. They certainly didn't want to get in trouble with the MPAA and so forth for freely allowing shows/movies to be copied to the computer. It was able to do that anyway with hacks and that led to the R10 which made it a lot harder to hack, but still doable. You all do notice that the DirecTV DVR+ series so far isn't hackable and for a good reason.
> 
> People always seem to shove this under the rug but the hackability of the Tivo's and ability to "pirate" content (in the eyes of Hollywood) is one of the top reasons why DirecTV parted ways with Tivo. Tivo couldn't or wouldn't plug the holes and DirecTV said bye bye.





richierich said:


> I thought that the "REAL REASON" Directv broke from Tivo was so they could control their own destiny by controlling their own platform, how it looked, how it worked without having to pay licensing fees to someone else. This makes great business sense in the long run to be able to control your product directly.
> 
> Wow, was I FOOLED!!!


I agree with Scott on this one.

However, richierich, I think you reasoning goes hand in hand with Scott's.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive. In order to get away from the hackability they needed more control over the platform.

For these reasons(Scott's and Rich's) IMHO, there will never be another DirecTiVo unit.

As to why there's no DLB....well, it has nothing to do with seperation from TiVo but I've already posted my views on that. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> Your not crazy it's in the old thread . That's the reason I stayed . But here we are almost 2 years later and still nothing .





Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm pretty sure that Earl said that, but then he later (and more frequently) said that DLB was not being actively developed. Priorities change. No one actively misled anyone. All we can do is report what we believe to be true at the moment.


He was absolutly told by DirecTV they were working on it.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206

I too went with the HR20 because of DirecTV's assertion they were working on it.

Of course, since then, DirecTV changed that stance for reasons we'll never know. 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> Your not crazy it's in the old thread . That's the reason I stayed . But here we are almost 2 years later and still nothing .





Stuart Sweet said:


> I'm pretty sure that Earl said that, but then he later (and more frequently) said that DLB was not being actively developed. Priorities change. No one actively misled anyone. All we can do is report what we believe to be true at the moment.





MicroBeta said:


> He was absolutly told by DirecTV they were working on it.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206
> 
> I too went with the HR20 because of DirecTV's assertion they were working on it.
> 
> Of course, since then, DirecTV changed that stance for reasons we'll never know.
> 
> Mike


And the corollary: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1039801&postcount=1184


> In all seriousness... If DLB is that important to you...
> Time to leave...
> 
> DLB is not in active development, there several other things they are working on for the system, before they even come back to the topic of DLB.
> 
> So if DLB and watching two live programs is that tantamount to your enjoyment of your DVR....
> 
> Time to switch.


So it's been at least one year since Earl basically said .. "No." To my knowledge, that stance never changed after that point.


----------



## rudeney

I would love DLB for all the main reasons expressed here, but I would understand if we don’t or can’t get that feature. In the absence of DLB, though, I really wish that if the HR2x is tuned to a non-live program due to pausing or rewinding, that it not allow the channel to be changed without warning. Twice now I have paused a live program, then picked up the remote to start watching again, and accidentally hit some button that changed the channel and caused me to lose my buffer! Of course DLB would solve that, but if not, a simple warning of “Do you want to return to live TV (Y/N)?” would be great.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan

Doug Brott said:


> So it's been at least one year since Earl basically said .. "No." To my knowledge, that stance never changed after that point.


Apparently I either suck at searching, or you have much more patience than I do, because I tried to do what you just did and failed!

However, in trying, I found lots, and lots, and lots of posts by Earl in the last year that all said DLB was not in active development, was not being worked on, etc, etc, etc.

So, to your last point.... once he said "No, it's not being worked on", you are correct, he never changed his stance after that.

Oh to be a fly on the wall and find out what happened in between those two posts... from 'we're looking into how we could best implement it' to 'we're not working on it'.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> And the corollary: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1039801&postcount=1184
> 
> So it's been at least one year since Earl basically said .. "No." To my knowledge, that stance never changed after that point.


IMHO, that stance will never change. Nor will we ever be privy to why.

I just want to know what's better.....:grin:

Mike


----------



## DarinC

MicroBeta said:


> I just want to know what's better.....


Two DVRs for the price of one?


----------



## Que

Doug Brott said:


> I guess you're not really the new guy anymore :grin:


Join Date: Jun 28, 2007
Posts: 2

Dang.. I would say welcome but it looks like you been here for a while.....ah what the heck I like the smilies...:welcome_s to the forum!

Come on "the new guy" speak up a little more!

:hurah: :lol:  !Devil_lol :joy: :new_Eyecr :joy: :kickbutt: :uglyhamme :icon_hroc :icon_peac :flag: :icon_lol: :welcome: :thats: :dance01: :jumpingja !rolling :jump3: :rolling: :whatdidid :box: :icon_bb: :rotfl: :bonk1: :bowdown:

oh and :backtotop so when is this "something better" coming to CE? Has there been any more info in the chat and when is the next one, I like to sit in.


----------



## dennisj00

DarinC said:


> Two DVRs for the price of one?


Even if it's free, the second DVR introduces a whole set of problems (that DLB didn't have) unless we have MRV. And MRV may not allow tuner access without the same recording hassle of the workaround.


----------



## Que

ATARI said:


> Then it looks like that strategy backfired, as here we are two years later, and the HRs don't have DLB or MRV.


Baby steps... looks like they are getting closer but, it is taking a long, long time.


----------



## Que

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206

09-25-06


Earl Bonovich said:


> The HR20 is capable of doing it... as, there is only marginal difference between recording two programs at once, and recording two programs at once in buffers.
> 
> As of my last update on the issue, they are still identifying the best way to get the dual buffers in the system.


So when Earl did say this, it did sound like it could be done with no problems. How did that marginal turn into a major? Why can't they just turn on DLB now and then when this "something better then DLB" is ready..release it?


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206
> 
> 09-25-06
> 
> So when Earl did say this, it did sound like it could be done with no problems. How did that marginal turn into a major? Why can't they just turn on DLB now and then when this "something better then DLB" is ready..release it?


Not sure what prompted the difference, but the message for over a year now has been unchanged.


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> Absolutely false and I challenge you to find the passage that you are so sure was said. If anything, Earl said that TiVo wanted more money for the features .. Not sure how that applies to TiVo wanting to differentiate the models.


So, 28,000 plus posts and you know what he said in every one? Must be nice to have that kind of memory.

I'll pass on your challenge.


----------



## henryld

DarinC said:


> Two DVRs for the price of one?


+SWM for us cable challenged?


----------



## MrDad0330

Not really time to switch...I dont think anyone ever said or implied that. I am a loyal customer of D since May 95. I just wish D would have incorporated DLBs in their HR series. Now maybe a good many in DBS Talk value some of the networking abilities of the HR but id bet the farm the majority of D customers watch and record, pause live TV and watch two shows at once..especially sports and would enjoy what you can do with DLB's any day compared to "lets bring pictures and music down from our home PC" Thats the point I was trying to make... I would hope on DBS we can voice opinions and wishes without being told to "switch" if you dont like everything that D offers.


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> So, 28,000 plus posts and you know what he said in every one? Must be nice to have that kind of memory.
> 
> I'll pass on your challenge.


I have a sixth sense on this one ..


----------



## Flyrx7

MrDad0330 said:


> I would hope on DBS we can voice opinions and wishes without being told to "switch" if you dont like everything that D offers.


That seems to be some kind of mantra around this thread sometimes. For some reason though, the ones that don't want DLB like to stick around for arguments sake. Sometimes I think they get some sort of pleasure watching us beg and plead for DLB, like some sort of superiority complex.
Oh well, it keeps the debate, and the thread alive.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Drew2k

I don't beg or plead - such acts are not in my character. I will occasionally grovel, though. Groveling never goes out of style.


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> I have a sixth sense on this one ..


Still not as strong as the Force.


----------



## tthunder38

And now we're up to page 100.....I've seen on this site "D* is watching & listening to what everyone here is saying" (or something to that effect). So when is D* going to start responding to the wishes of their customer base?


----------



## RCY

tthunder38 said:


> And now we're up to page 100.....I've seen on this site "D* is watching & listening to what everyone here is saying" (or something to that effect). So when is D* going to start responding to the wishes of their customer base?


When they think it actually affects their bottom line. They're in business to make money, not please everyone. I'd like to see DLB in the HR2x, but I'm not naive enough to expect them to do it if it doesn't somehow make them money. (Or keep them from losing it in significant numbers of subscriber defections.)

Their complete silence on the topic says they're not adding DLB as a feature.


----------



## tommy_mc

BTW, it looks like FiOS TV is adding DLB with it's newest version 1.6 upgrade.

Details


----------



## mikewolf13

tommy_mc said:


> BTW, it looks like FiOS TV is adding DLB with it's newest version 1.6 upgrade.
> 
> Details


DLB exists on FIOS now..but it does hold pause points, as it will after 1.6


----------



## Stuart Sweet

RCY said:


> Their complete silence on the topic says they're not adding DLB as a feature.


Hmm, I've heard that said before several times.


----------



## the new guy

Que said:


> Join Date: Jun 28, 2007
> Posts: 2
> 
> Dang.. I would say welcome but it looks like you been here for a while.....ah what the heck I like the smilies...:welcome_s to the forum!
> 
> Come on "the new guy" speak up a little more!


I joined last year so that I could read up on all the development with the new DVR's. I wanted to be sure I knew what to expect when I eventually did upgrade to HD. Honestly, I do not find them to be nearly as deplorable as some people seem to think they are.

Thanks for the welcome!

Tim


----------



## RCY

Stuart Sweet said:


> Hmm, I've heard that said before several times.


Here, let me pat you on the back so you don't sprain your shoulder...:lol:


----------



## Que

So why say anything at all? Or is "Something better then DLB" a lie, just to keep us around?


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> So why say anything at all? Or is "Something better then DLB" a lie, just to keep us around?


There is some hard evidence that at least one change has been made .. that is why there are two workaround options now .. and no, I don't consider a workaround the real thing .. that's why I call it a workaround.


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> There is some hard evidence that at least one change has been made .. that is why there are two workaround options now .. and no, I don't consider a workaround the real thing .. that's why I call it a workaround.


Quack!

Maybe a poll should be run to see if people are willing to compensate D* for their development time on this? I'd be willing to purchase this feature for all the DVR on my account for $15. Maybe if they saw us put our money were our mouth is in a new poll?


----------



## mikewolf13

rahlquist said:


> Quack!
> 
> Maybe a poll should be run to see if people are willing to compensate D* for their development time on this? I'd be willing to purchase this feature for all the DVR on my account for $15. Maybe if they saw us put our money were our mouth is in a new poll?


I doubt a la carte development will fly.

I think it's time to give up the fight at least until the next-gen DVR is announced..

How many times do they have to say no......and yes I take their silence after 3+ years as implied refusal.


----------



## Maybein08

I just upgraded to HD DVR today (from my RCA Tivo). My install will not be until the 20th of August, but I have experienced the hr20 at my brother's house and I am not impressed. I hope my further experience with it(or the HR21) will improve my thoughts on it. Maybe I just have to get used to the interface a bit. I will, I mean I WILL, miss the DLB feature immensely! It is widely used by both my wife and I every night. I use it all the time watching football and hockey in season. It's a great feature of the Tivo. Very sad, but I will also enjoy the hd!


----------



## Que

Maybein08 said:


> I just upgraded to HD DVR today (from my RCA Tivo). My install will not be until the 20th of August, but I have experienced the hr20 at my brother's house and I am not impressed. I hope my further experience with it(or the HR21) will improve my thoughts on it. Maybe I just have to get used to the interface a bit. I will, I mean I WILL, miss the DLB feature immensely! It is widely used by both my wife and I every night. I use it all the time watching football and hockey in season. It's a great feature of the Tivo. Very sad, but I will also enjoy the hd!


:welcome_s to the forum Maybein08!

I'm hoping that "something better then DLB" will satisfied our need for DLB. We just need it here SOONER then later..

[edit] If you only watch local HD, you can still get an HR10 and get OTA HD with Tivo. That is if you can still find one.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Going between Brother-in-Laws and our house this weekend, EVERYBODY was missing DLB, and trying to watch the Olympic's. Ended up Staying Late at our house, as DLB, made the Olympics more enjoyable.


----------



## dennisj00

GrumpyBear said:


> Going between Brother-in-Laws and our house this weekend, EVERYBODY was missing DLB, and trying to watch the Olympic's. Ended up Staying Late at our house, as DLB, made the Olympics more enjoyable.


One very simple but effective example of using DLB seamlessly instead of having to record one or two 3+ hour HD programs and then possibly losing the minute you want to watch because the recording timed out and the buffer flushed!


----------



## luckydob

RCY said:


> When they think it actually affects their bottom line. They're in business to make money, not please everyone. I'd like to see DLB in the HR2x, but I'm not naive enough to expect them to do it if it doesn't somehow make them money. (Or keep them from losing it in significant numbers of subscriber defections.)
> 
> Their complete silence on the topic says they're not adding DLB as a feature.


How does media share make them $$? I would say that less people want/use media share than would DLB. JMHO.


----------



## RCY

luckydob said:


> How does media share make them $$? I would say that less people want/use media share than would DLB. JMHO.


I don't know. But you can bet someone at D* thought it would be a good addition for whatever reason. Why do that and not DLB? Personally, it makes no sense to me. When my sister's lousy generic Scientific Atlanta cable DVR has a capability (DLB) that Directtv's flagship DVR doesn't, it just boggles the mind. Pretty simple capability, that's for sure.

But make no mistake, D* is aware that they don't have it and made a decision that it wasn't important to them. They work prettty closely with the CE group here and know all about this thread. They don't care, because they don't think it will hurt them financially. I still don't have a HR2x, and no DLB is certainly part of the reason. But I understand I'm part of a small minority.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Somebody made a decision it wasn't important to them, and came up with other ideas. The more people complain, the more they point out the blatant basic feature that is missing, can only help but make them rethink the decision. With more and more people being forced to upgrade from there old reliable HR10's, as its the only way they can watch the the new HD and NFL Ticket, there will be even MORE complaints coming.


----------



## luckydob

what is and when is "better than DLB" coming? Anyone??? Bueller, Bueller...


----------



## jaxfan

It aint coming (on the current HRxx boxes anyway). History tells us so. They may add it to the next gen of receivers, but not the current ones. 

On the first receiver I got there was a data port on the back, the manual said 'for future use'. That never happen.

On the next receiver I got there was some other port (can't remember what it was), the manual said 'for future use'. Ah, that never happen.

The only way to get the 'for future use' or 'something better is coming' is to wait until the next generation of receivers.


----------



## anubys

well, the eSATA port was used later on in the HR20 and HR21...so it's possible...


----------



## SteveLaB

I have 2 HR10's and 2 HR20's in our house. When D* offered to change out my HR10's with HR20's, I wanted to find out how important the HR10 "Pause Point" Dual Live Buffers was to my family.

I created an experiment in our Family Room where I connected both an HR10 and HR20 to the HDTV and switching between the two is an easy input button on the remote control. I have college age daughters, my wife and myself using this TV. Except for movies and other "feature" events in HD on the HR20, the HR10's was the preferred receiver. I noticed that all of us used the HR10's "Pause Point" dual line buffers that are not possible in the HR2x work arounds. No matter who was watching the TV or if we were watching the evening news on 2 networks, game shows, prime time or sporting events including the olympics, it appeared that everyone in our home multi-tasks and prefers watching multiple live shows at the same time on the HR10. Experiment Results: 1. SD with black pillars and Dual Live Buffers was preferred to HD single live buffers the majority of the time. 2. Multiple receivers on a single TV created confusion on recorded materials and "to do" lists.

Based on this experiment, I canceled the D* order for the so-called UPGRADE and informed them we preferred the older models which better matched our watching style. Now that I have moved the HR10 back to its original location, I am now more frustrated than ever with the HR20. Because I enjoy the dual live buffer when watching football games, with not being able to get DLB and HD on the same receiver and with D* obnoxious charge for upgrading Sunday Ticket to HD, I canceled NFL Sunday Ticket today. 

And I am not ready to pay the fees to install the 2-HR20 work around to get the live buffer on two receivers and deal with the frustration that will come on trying to keep the recorded materials organized. In our house, the benefits of the new features pale in comparison with the value of the lost DLB's.

The D* HR20 UPGRADE has made a loyal 10 year customer actively search out alternative service providers to get the features we originally enjoyed with D*. My D* commitments expire in January and I can hardly wait to cancel D*!! Another success story for D* strategic marketing efforts?


----------



## MikeR7

SteveLaB said:


> I have 2 HR10's and 2 HR20's in our house. When D* offered to change out my HR10's with HR20's, I wanted to find out how important the HR10 "Pause Point" Dual Live Buffers was to my family.
> 
> I created an experiment in our Family Room where I connected both an HR10 and HR20 to the HDTV and switching between the two is an easy input button on the remote control. I have college age daughters, my wife and myself using this TV. Except for movies and other "feature" events in HD on the HR20, the HR10's was the preferred receiver. I noticed that all of us used the HR10's "Pause Point" dual line buffers that are not possible in the HR2x work arounds. No matter who was watching the TV or if we were watching the evening news on 2 networks, game shows, prime time or sporting events including the olympics, it appeared that everyone in our home multi-tasks and prefers watching multiple live shows at the same time on the HR10. Experiment Results: 1. SD with black pillars and Dual Live Buffers was preferred to HD single live buffers the majority of the time. 2. Multiple receivers on a single TV created confusion on recorded materials and "to do" lists.
> 
> Based on this experiment, I canceled the D* order for the so-called UPGRADE and informed them we preferred the older models which better matched our watching style. Now that I have moved the HR10 back to its original location, I am now more frustrated than ever with the HR20. Because I enjoy the dual live buffer when watching football games, with not being able to get DLB and HD on the same receiver and with D* obnoxious charge for upgrading Sunday Ticket to HD, I canceled NFL Sunday Ticket today.
> 
> And I am not ready to pay the fees to install the 2-HR20 work around to get the live buffer on two receivers and deal with the frustration that will come on trying to keep the recorded materials organized. In our house, the benefits of the new features pale in comparison with the value of the lost DLB's.
> 
> The D* HR20 UPGRADE has made a loyal 10 year customer actively search out alternative service providers to get the features we originally enjoyed with D*. My D* commitments expire in January and I can hardly wait to cancel D*!! Another success story for D* strategic marketing efforts?


Some people have trouble with change. Good luck in January with your new provider! :lol: :lol:


----------



## SteveLaB

MikeR7

Its not about trouble with change. Its trouble with NEGATIVE IMPROVEMENTS to a product capability under the name of UPGRADE.


----------



## dennisj00

MikeR7 said:


> Some people have trouble with change. Good luck in January with your new provider! :lol: :lol:


It amazes me that you can so flippantly write off this post that 4 people in his family use DLB and have become use to the feature that doesn't exist in the HR2x series.

I had lunch with a business friend today that got his FIRST DVR from his CABLE company last week and he was BRAGGING that he could now watch TWO things at a time!! Did he know it was called DLB -- NO. But he knew what he had!!

Some people use DVRs differently than you might use them. . .


----------



## Lord Vader

I agree, Dennis. MikeR7's post was, indeed, quite flippant. There are many people for whom DLB is so desired that if they do switch to DISH or cable, they are satisfied.

Regardless of what one thinks about DLB as a "feature," I believe it would be accurate to say that DirecTV would retain/attract more customers and benefit more in the end than it is currently.

And this is _*in spite of*_ the "better than DLB bullschit" that has been thrown around for months!


----------



## dennisj00

I'll have to admit that I've never considered switching but I do miss the DLB of my Sat-T60 (or whatever it was called -- how soon we forget when we stack them in the back room!)

I would like to figure something out better than the 'workarounds' before football season but here it is! 

And where is "something better"?


----------



## MikeR7

dennisj00 said:


> It amazes me that you can so flippantly write off this post that 4 people in his family use DLB and have become use to the feature that doesn't exist in the HR2x series.
> 
> I had lunch with a business friend today that got his FIRST DVR from his CABLE company last week and he was BRAGGING that he could now watch TWO things at a time!! Did he know it was called DLB -- NO. But he knew what he had!!
> 
> Some people use DVRs differently than you might use them. . .


I have a HR10-250 and a HR20-700 both feeding the same TV, plus an H20 feeding the computer monitor I am typing this on. I watch 2, 3 and sometimes 4 things at the same time with no problem at all. Actually I hardly ever watch the TIVO, and hardly ever use DLB.

Right now I am watching the Olympics beach vollyball in a little window on this computer screen, the Twins and Mariners on one tuner on the HR20 and the boxing match on 756 on the other tuner. The selection of shows I want to watch on the TIVO could come from OTA HD locals the MPEG-2 HD channels or whatever. I could watch 5 things at once I guess if I wanted. I'll stick with my statement, some people have trouble with change. :lol: :lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

Wow. I'm jealous! I'd MUCH rather watch a show on my tiny computer screen than an LED DLP 61" HDTV any day!!!


----------



## MikeR7

Lord Vader said:


> Wow. I'm jealous! I'd MUCH rather watch a show on my tiny computer screen than an LED DLP 61" HDTV any day!!!


I do not see how that is relevant to the question.:nono:


----------



## dennisj00

MikeR7 said:


> I do not see how that is relevant to the question.:nono:


I don't watch tv on my computer screen. . . I'd much rather watch tv on my tv.


----------



## Flyrx7

MikeR7 said:


> I do not see how that is relevant to the question.:nono:


It's relevant in that people like things in different ways;

- You like watching TV content on a computer monitor.
- Others like watching on their HD big screens

- You like watching content on multiple receivers without the need for DLB.
- Others wish they had DLB, as multiple receivers may not be an option for them.


----------



## dennisj00

That's been an underlying current in this (and other) threads . . "You don't need DLB. . . "Why would you want to watch two things at the same time" . . "I have (pick a number) of DVRs hooked up to my (pick a number) Plasma (or LCD) TVs . . why do YOU need DLB??? "I record everything I watch -- why do YOU need DLB??"

If you don't like or want DLB why fight it? Personally, I liked it and I miss the feature (that EVERY OTHER DVR ON THE MARKET HAS) very badly. But I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have media sharing, MRV, Widgets, VOD, or other features that are here - or sorta here. . . some of them still don't work very well after a year or so . . 

So, bottom line, just give us DLB, one button - the down arrow?? and a 30-90 minute buffer -- it can't be that hard!!


----------



## MX727

I sat down tonight, turned on the TV and the HR10-250 was on Disney. Kids..  So I hit the down arrow and History is on the other channel with an interesting show (to me) about knives, laser cutters, and shredders. Basic show about cutting edge technology. Anyway, it's 20 past the hour so I hit skip back to the beginning of the show and I watched it. 

Try that with your [email protected]#%$. Can't do the workaround in that case. Made me realize why I'll never, ever upgrade without true DLB. 

And, I'm fine with change, but I'm not going to change out my car for a horse and buggy just because the buggy comes with an Ethernet port.


----------



## n3ntj

So, when will we ever know what this "something is coming soon from D* that is better than DLB" is? I'm tired of waiting for this feature. Baseball season is half over and many of us have been asking for this feature for almost 2 years.


----------



## dennisj00

n3ntj said:


> So, when will we ever know what this "something is coming soon from D* that is better than DLB" is? I'm tired of waiting for this feature. Baseball season is half over and many of us have been asking for this feature for almost 2 years.


I'd say, just keep posting and pounding and call your friends, let them know you're outraged, and we're not gonna take this anymore!!


----------



## NickD

MX727 said:


> I sat down tonight, turned on the TV and the HR10-250 was on Disney. Kids..  So I hit the down arrow and History is on the other channel with an interesting show (to me) about knives, laser cutters, and shredders. Basic show about cutting edge technology. Anyway, it's 20 past the hour so I hit skip back to the beginning of the show and I watched it.
> 
> Try that with your [email protected]#%$. Can't do the workaround in that case. Made me realize why I'll never, ever upgrade without true DLB.
> 
> And, I'm fine with change, but I'm not going to change out my car for a horse and buggy just because the buggy comes with an Ethernet port.


It is reasons like this that I miss having DLB. There have been so many shows that I have watched that I otherwise would not have known about because of DLB.


----------



## raott

dennisj00 said:


> That's been an underlying current in this (and other) threads . . "You don't need DLB. . . "Why would you want to watch two things at the same time" . . "I have (pick a number) of DVRs hooked up to my (pick a number) Plasma (or LCD) TVs . . why do YOU need DLB??? "I record everything I watch -- why do YOU need DLB??"
> 
> If you don't like or want DLB why fight it?


Your right, that's been a common theme in other threads.

There is a core group here that simply do not like negative talk about D* or its equipment. When a shortcoming like DLB is pointed out, no matter how fair the criticism or factual the shortcoming is, an attempt will be made to dismiss the shortcoming as somehow not the fault of D* or not important for you to gripe out.

See also the 50 Series Link thread.


----------



## Drew2k

I have five DVRs hooked up to one TV (one is an HR10-DIRECTV-DVR-with TiVo, three are HR20 DVRs, and one is a Cablevbision SA8300 DVR) and I really want DLB.

Really want it.

Why? The convenience... Yes, I can pause one HR20 and flip TV inputs to view another HR20, but I have to juggle activities on my remote and wait for the TV to process the request. Minor annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless. DLB means I can keep the TV input where it is and simply toggle buffers...

I have multiple DVRs on one TV and I want DLB.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Drew2k said:


> I have five DVRs hooked up to one TV (one is an HR10-DIRECTV-DVR-with TiVo, three are HR20 DVRs, and one is a Cablevbision SA8300 DVR) and I really want DLB.
> 
> Really want it.
> 
> Why? The convenience... Yes, I can pause one HR20 and flip TV inputs to view another HR20, but I have to juggle activities on my remote and wait for the TV to process the request. Minor annoyance, but an annoyance nonetheless. DLB means I can keep the TV input where it is and simply toggle buffers...
> 
> I have multiple DVRs on one TV and I want DLB.


Drew, sounds like you need an external switch.


----------



## bonscott87

MX727 said:


> Anyway, it's 20 past the hour so I hit skip back to the beginning of the show and I watched it.
> 
> Try that with your [email protected]#%$. Can't do the workaround in that case. Made me realize why I'll never, ever upgrade without true DLB.


Well, I would have pulled up the guide and set a later showing to record.  Those things get shown a dozen times a week it seems. I guess if it's not showing again I'm out of luck but most of the time not. But then again I rarely watch live TV so I'd never see it in the first place. 

Hope DLB comes for those that want it, I don't care either way.


----------



## Drew2k

theratpatrol said:


> Drew, sounds like you need an external switch.


I actually don't - take a look at my setup diagram, linked in my signature. I'm good with the switching! It's the delays that are inherent in any switching that I find annoying.


----------



## Chuck_MenoFalls

I'm an 11 year veteran of DirecTV service. I adopted (by "adopted" I mean paid $300 + a $5/mth DVR fee) the D-Tivo (DSR6000) 6 or 7 years ago and have been completely satisfied. So much so that I actively evangelized the superior benefits of DTV with Tivo - specifically the ability to actively track/watch two shows at once - you know, that game-changer/killer-app feature we know as DLB. 

Three years ago I decided to join the HD world and upgraded to the HR10-250. All the same goodness, all the same features, and HDTV - for a few channels anyway. Sure, it cost me $600 this time, but hey, I got more recording time and HD - a true upgrade. 

Fast forward to last week. After annoying calls from our friends at DTV, I finally decided to chat with them to hear how they were going to improve my life related to changes they were making that impacted my local viewing area. I was informed that all I needed to do was to pick a time - and someone would visit me, install a new HD DVR for me, and upgrade my dish. Ok, great - that doesn't sound so bad, right?

Somewhat eager to determine the particulars, I started some research. To my shock, I discovered that DTV had severed it's relationship with Tivo ... that it was going to take the "home grown" approach. Ok, sure, the remote looks horrible, but I use an 890 anyway. I've read the functionality of the device is different, some like it/some hate it - but really how bad can it be, right? I mean they had Tivo, they ditched "the" gold standard of DVR for a reason - it had to actually be better, right? 

Fast forward to yesterday, specifically 4:15PM. Well, nothing too terrible at that particular time, except that it was 15 minutes *after* the window I was told my new "goodness" would be delivered. Hey, it's DTV after all, so I was well aware of their lack of regard for CSAT. After meeting the installer, I was informed that only a DVR was to be installed - since I had a 3LNB dish already I didn't need anything else. ... OK, that's two strikes in the CSAT column. 

45-50 min later, I have a new system installed and working. Great, since I'm already an hour behind from the late install, I'll dive into the 'goodness' later, after softball. 

Finally in the evening, the wife and I get a chance to experiment. Ok, yep, the remote does suck. It's as if the Domestic-3's ergonomic design engineers from the 90's were all hired by DTV. Still, I'll program my 890 and solve that problem soon enough, right. 

Well, after fumbling around for 30 minutes seeing if there's any way to get the Tivo style guide (channel based, not time based) I finally gave up and just decided to watch a little TV. The local news goes to commercial, so I hit pause, then the down arrow. Hrrmmm, that's odd, nothing happened. Try again, same result. I tell my wife, they must have just changed the methods, so I actually get manual (something I *NEVER* had to resort to with the Tivo). Well, I'm sure you all know the result given the title of this thread. And yep, that's strike 3 in the CSAT column. 

Specific to the original question - My thoughts on DLB? Well, it's essential, a must have - an absolute requirement. It is the killer App for a sevice capable for providing a dual-tuner solution. Without DLB, DTV just became ordinary. Let me put that in further perspective, DTV just went from extraordinary to ordinary, ie, a downgrade. 

Sure, I understand there is more HD capacity now, that my local channels, esp Fox, may now be available in HD. Great - that may have meant something to me last year, when Favre was still around. Even then, I'd really care no more than 19 times a year, for no more than 3hrs at a time. Yes, what I'm saying is that HD is a benefit, a nice to have, an option ... but DLB, that's a requirement. 

My choice in the poll? Well, that's complicated. My real answer is DVR+ is really DVR- w/out DLB. However, since I was not aware of the lack of DLB prior to them giving me the DVR+, I technically can't select that answer. Thus, in the absence of an "Until DLB, I will not ^use^ the DVR+", my choice is "the current ^kludge^ (not work-around) is woefully inadequate and underwhelming."

Bottom line, I have some options to evaluate and decisions to make. But the net result is that based on what appears to be DTVs refusal to enable what could only be defined as an "indescribably simple solution to implement" ... well, for the first time in 11+ years I will be looking at the competition. Now that's what I call an upgrade!


----------



## kiljoy

Chuck_MenoFalls said:


> My choice in the poll? Well, that's complicated. My real answer is DVR+ is really DVR- w/out DLB. However, since I was not aware of the lack of DLB prior to them giving me the DVR+, I technically can't select that answer. Thus, in the absence of an "Until DLB, I will not ^use^ the DVR+", my choice is "the current ^kludge^ (not work-around) is woefully inadequate and underwhelming."


You haven't even gotten to the best parts yet. I'm guessing when you get blank recordings and 771 messages, you'll be referring to your "DVR-" as a "DV-".


----------



## dennisj00

I've never had a blank recording or 771 message and I still think it's a DV- !!

Sort of a half a DVR.


----------



## Que

Just seen a commercial for the AT&T U-verse. One of there key points that it can record up to four(4) programs at the same time, on ONE DVR. Does anyone know if you can pause and swap between turners? I know it has PIP but, don't know how it will work with 4 shows.

http://tiny.cc/8A69H

**Four channels can be recorded to the DVR or viewed simultaneously, up to 2 can be HD based on geographic restrictions.


----------



## NickD

Que said:


> Just seen a commercial for the AT&T U-verse. One of there key points that it can record up to four(4) programs at the same time, on ONE DVR. Does anyone know if you can pause and swap between turners? I know it has PIP but, don't know how it will work with 4 shows.
> 
> http://tiny.cc/8A69H
> 
> **Four channels can be recorded to the DVR or viewed simultaneously, up to 2 can be HD based on geographic restrictions.


That sounds interesting. I like the idea of recording 4 at one time.


----------



## luckydob

I would settle for DVR that actually does the "R" part of DVR correctly on one tuner *and* DLB.


----------



## cborjon

Snoofie said:


> I would use DLB often. I like to flip around channels a lot and I used to switch tuners on my Tivo all the time and just keep tuner 1 on whatever I was "watching" and then flip around on tuner 2 to see if there was something better on. If I decided that I wanted to save what was on tuner 1 I would record it. I understand the workaround for the current DVR's, but I just don't do it. Too many button presses and I would forget to delete what was on the other tuner recording and then have to go back and do that.


This WAS my view behavior exactly. I waited until two weeks ago until, before I was finally forced to abandon my HR10-250. I wanted to get the full Olympics viewing experience (On Demand included) so I made the move. I even had held back knowing I was forgoing HD baseball games with my Extra Innings subscription.

I like many of the features of the new HR21 but, the lack of Dual Live Buffers is really a huge drawback. My wife who hardly notices these things and objected to losing Tivo said the new receiver (though not as user friendly) was not as bad as she feared. However yesterday will watching the Olympics, she called my into the TV room and wanted to know how to get the dual tuner thing to work on the new box :nono2:. When I explained, her response was "this is an upgrade?". Then as I was walking out of the room she asked "where is the slow motion button on this remote? :eek2:


----------



## jaxfan

cborjon said:


> ....
> However yesterday will watching the Olympics, she called my into the TV room and wanted to know how to get the dual tuner thing to work on the new box :nono2:. When I explained, her response was "this is an upgrade?". Then as I was walking out of the room she asked "where is the slow motion button on this remote? :eek2:


Amen brother. My wife is not a techie. Couldn't care less that we "upgraded" to the HR21. But once she went to use the DLB function and found out the HR21 didn't have it, I got an ear full.


----------



## bonscott87

jaxfan said:


> Amen brother. My wife is not a techie. Couldn't care less that we "upgraded" to the HR21. But once she went to use the DLB function and found out the HR21 didn't have it, I got an ear full.


LOL. Well with my wife she never noticed since she doesn't watch live TV. So long as she has about 50 episodes of CSI always available on the DVR that's all she cares about.  She converted to no live TV 8 years ago when we got our first Tivo. I am surprised how many people still bother with live TV in the era of the DVR.

_Again I add the disclaimer that I hope DLB is added for those that want it._


----------



## mjs31

Not sure if this was brought up, but would dual live buffer help with the issue of accidentally changing a channel that has been paused and losing everything? I know that we should hit the record button if it is that important, but the fact that it is so easy to change throws me. Seems like my old Ultimate TV at least asked me if I was sure I wanted to change when I had paused for a while to make sure I would not lose the rest of the program.


----------



## ATARI

mjs31 said:


> Not sure if this was brought up, but would dual live buffer help with the issue of accidentally changing a channel that has been paused and losing everything? I know that we should hit the record button if it is that important, but the fact that it is so easy to change throws me. Seems like my old Ultimate TV at least asked me if I was sure I wanted to change when I had paused for a while to make sure I would not lose the rest of the program.


Yes, having 'true' (TiVo like) DLBs would save your paused program on tuner1, while you went surfing on tuner2. All without having to press a record button.


----------



## tkrandall

someone posted on another thread yesterday (now closed) that recent software releases on the HR's changed the behviour of the units such that they no longer alternate between tuners when changing channels during live tv (not recording) mode. Is this the case, and if so, is it the case wiith both the satellite tuners and the OTA tuners (on an HR20)? The swapping behaviour was helpful in diagnosing if you had a bad tuner (or feed), which is not uncommon in these units.


----------



## dennisj00

I've said before, there's not an easy way to see what's happening on the other tuner -- DLB certainly helps that.


----------



## jhart05

How is it implemented on the HR10?

Is it the same as the R10? Dual channels for 30 minutes?

That's what I miss the most since upgrading to the R22.


----------



## MX727

jhart05 said:


> How is it implemented on the HR10?
> 
> Is it the same as the R10? Dual channels for 30 minutes?
> 
> That's what I miss the most since upgrading to the R22.


Yep, that's what this is all about. Some here will troll and tell you why you don't need it. Most of the rest want it to some degree. Welcome to the club.


----------



## jhart05

Ok, then I voted correctly.

Love the dual tuners that the (H)R10s had.

In that case, I would like to see the dual buffers be a full ONE HOUR long.


EDIT: Didn't notice initially that this was the HD side. D*, please also do this for the R22s.


----------



## Flyrx7

jhart05 said:


> EDIT: Didn't notice initially that this was the HD side. D*, please also do this for the R22s.


Well now, that's a really good point. DLB is not just a D* HD problem but an SD problem too. Yet the DLB thread is only in the HD forum.

Methinks that this thread would get more attention if it had a link to it from the DIRECTV Plus DVR Discussion (SD).

I know how this is going to sound, and I can hear all kinds of groaning now, but there should be a sticky in the SD forum linking this thread. Since it would appear that we are only allowed (1) DLB thread, this only seems fair.

Thoughts?

Regards,
Frank


----------



## jaxfan

Flyrx7 said:


> ...
> I know how this is going to sound, and I can hear all kinds of groaning now, but there should be a sticky in the SD forum linking this thread.


well this once was a sticky. But when it came clear that D* has no intention of implementing DLB in the HR2x, the mods here "unstickyed" it (hoping that it would eventually fade away past page 1). Heck they even locked it for weeks on end just because it was getting to much attention.


----------



## Flyrx7

jaxfan said:


> Heck they even locked it for weeks on end just
> because it was getting to much attention.


Yeah, I remember the sticky. Still seems fair to me that the SD guys should be invited to the party!

An even better idea would be for the competition to take out some add space on this thread! Too much attention should be a good thing!

Frank


----------



## Doug Brott

jaxfan said:


> well this once was a sticky. But when it came clear that D* has no intention of implementing DLB in the HR2x, the mods here "unstickyed" it (hoping that it would eventually fade away past page 1). Heck they even locked it for weeks on end just because it was getting to much attention.


Actually, you are mistaken ..

It was unstuck because the thread simply didn't need to have elevated attention. If you guys post here enough to keep it on page one, then have at it. We didn't close the thread.

As for being locked .. This had nothing to do with whether or not DIRECTV implements DLB. This had to do with the direction posters were taking .. Think of it as a time-out for bad behavior, not for disagreement ..

And for the record I'm the guy the locked it .. and I'd be happy if DLB were implemented.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Yeah, I remember the sticky. Still seems fair to me that the SD guys should be invited to the party!
> 
> An even better idea would be for the competition to take out some add space on this thread! Too much attention should be a good thing!
> 
> Frank


There's no problem with R22 folks voicing their opinions here. The code base is the same between the receivers .. just the feature set is different.


----------



## bonscott87

Flyrx7 said:


> Methinks that this thread would get more attention if it had a link to it from the DIRECTV Plus DVR Discussion (SD).


*More* attention? 2500 posts and 88,000 views isn't enough attention? :lol:


----------



## jhart05

Flyrx7 said:


> Well now, that's a really good point. DLB is not just a D* HD problem but an SD problem too. Yet the DLB thread is only in the HD forum.


Yeah. You HD snobs.  (JK)

Some of us poor saps still have to get by with SD for a few more years.


----------



## Jhon69

Well I have never had Tivo and I don't really care for sports that said do I think the DirecTV DVR+ should have DLB?.Of course it should and here's the reason why.DirecTV has the best programming why can't DirecTV have the best DVR?.Without DLB DirecTV does not have the best DVR product on the market.


----------



## inkahauts

Jhon69 said:


> Well I have never had Tivo and I don't really care for sports that said do I think the DirecTV DVR+ should have DLB?.Of course it should and here's the reason why.DirecTV has the best programming why can't DirecTV have the best DVR?.Without DLB DirecTV does not have the best DVR product on the market.


Your assuming that DLB is the most important extra feature on the market.. There are many other features that I would rather see than DLB. In my book, whoever has great search capabilities to create specialized recording strings, and MRV will have the Best DVR in the business... Directv is on its way there for me.. DLB is useless for me...

I'm not saying it should be on there, its just to say that they can't have the best dvr on the market because of the lack of DLB is not logical in my book...


----------



## dennisj00

The last two posts sum it up . . . DLB and MRV would make the HR2x the BEST dvr on the market.


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> There's no problem with R22 folks voicing their opinions here. The code base is the same between the receivers .. just the feature set is different.


So, does that mean you're not opposed to linking this thread in that forum?
To keep from becoming 2 threads it would have to be a locked thread, but that also means it would have to be a sticky.

Do you want to start the thread topic over there or should I?

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Flyrx7

bonscott87 said:


> *More* attention? 2500 posts and 88,000 views isn't enough attention? :lol:


Apparently not.


----------



## vfr781rider

dennisj00 said:


> The last two posts sum it up . . . DLB and MRV would make the HR2x the BEST dvr on the market.


That and maybe throw in the PIP like Dish has. I could use that on occasions, too.


----------



## raott

Flyrx7 said:


> So, does that mean you're not opposed to linking this thread in that forum?
> To keep from becoming 2 threads it would have to be a locked thread, but that also means it would have to be a sticky.
> 
> Do you want to start the thread topic over there or should I?
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


IMO, it should be in the general forum. There was an uproar when the R15 was first reviewed and DLB was not there. Enough of an uproar that a distributor who used to post frequently on either this site or one of the others claimed he had spoken with his contacts and DLBs would be "coming within the next few months".

IMO, the reason DLB is not on the HR series was because NDS didn't include it in the R15 spec.

No DLB is not HR2X specific, it is a problem with all D* DVR's (other than Tivos).


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> I'm not saying it should be on there, its just to say that they can't have the best dvr on the market because of the lack of DLB is not logical in my book...


There is a whole bunch of people that would completely disagree with you.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well,
Only less than 10% think the Feature is unimportant. So that 10% will always make noise that you don't need DLB.
I will later go back through and reread the are when the topic became unstuck, but the reason givin was SOMETHING BETTER was coming, and since SOMETHING BETTER than DLB was on its way, there was no reason to keep this as a sticky, since it would be replaced by this REALLY cool feature.
This topic has kept on going and the good ol Something better has dropped off the wayside.


----------



## Jhon69

inkahauts said:


> Your assuming that DLB is the most important extra feature on the market.. There are many other features that I would rather see than DLB. In my book, whoever has great search capabilities to create specialized recording strings, and MRV will have the Best DVR in the business... Directv is on its way there for me.. DLB is useless for me...
> 
> I'm not saying it should be on there, its just to say that they can't have the best dvr on the market because of the lack of DLB is not logical in my book...


If DirecTV loses 1 customer because a feature that was on the old product isn't on the new product that is 1 customer too many and I personally know of customers who left because of no DLB.

I'm in no way saying DirecTV doesn't need MRV.DirecTV needs all the features they can put into their DVR because only then will it be #1 in the marketplace.

Would I use DLB? probably not but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong there because of the expectations of previous products it should be there or risk the loss of customers.


----------



## Jhon69

raott said:


> IMO, it should be in the general forum. There was an uproar when the R15 was first reviewed and DLB was not there. Enough of an uproar that a distributor who used to post frequently on either this site or one of the others claimed he had spoken with his contacts and DLBs would be "coming within the next few months".
> 
> IMO, the reason DLB is not on the HR series was because NDS didn't include it in the R15 spec.
> 
> No DLB is not HR2X specific, it is a problem with all D* DVR's (other than Tivos).


I agree!.


----------



## puffnstuff

GrumpyBear said:


> Well,
> Only less than 10% think the Feature is unimportant. So that 10% will always make noise that you don't need DLB.
> I will later go back through and reread the are when the topic became unstuck, but the reason givin was SOMETHING BETTER was coming, and since SOMETHING BETTER than DLB was on its way, there was no reason to keep this as a sticky, since it would be replaced by this REALLY cool feature.
> This topic has kept on going and the good ol Something better has dropped off the wayside.


I still think the something better was said just to appease us . I mean come on , it's been long enough and still no progress ( that we can see ) .


----------



## ATARI

puffnstuff said:


> I still think the something better was said just to appease us.


That _should_ be obvious to everybody now. Unless you happen to be delusional.


----------



## NickD

ATARI said:


> That _should_ be obvious to everybody now. Unless you happen to be delusional.


Come on people have some faith, I am sure something better is right around the corner.:lol: :lol:


----------



## dennisj00

Soon!


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> Well,
> Only less than 10% think the Feature is unimportant. So that 10% will always make noise that you don't need DLB.
> I will later go back through and reread the are when the topic became unstuck, but the reason givin was SOMETHING BETTER was coming, and since SOMETHING BETTER than DLB was on its way, there was no reason to keep this as a sticky, since it would be replaced by this REALLY cool feature.
> This topic has kept on going and the good ol Something better has dropped off the wayside.


Good luck finding it .. I actually remember why this thread was unstuck and it had nothing to do with "Somthing Better" .. In fact, I locked that thread .. which is why it hasn't been around .. because it had simply turned into a facsimile of this thread .. might as well keep the discussion in the same spot ..


----------



## dennisj00

There's two NFL games and a NASCAR race on tonight. . . . DLB would work!! 

(and yes, still leave out one, but you can switch between those)


----------



## TheRatPatrol

dennisj00 said:


> There's two NFL games and a NASCAR race on tonight. . . . DLB would work!!
> 
> (and yes, still leave out one, but you can switch between those)


And PIP.


----------



## luckydob

It's not coming. And by "it" I mean "something better than DLB". D* is trying to Ric Roll us all.


----------



## Que

luckydob said:


> It's not coming. And by "it" I mean "something better than DLB". D* is trying to Ric Roll us all.


So are you saying that DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual lie to us?? Why would he do that. He could of just said "NO" or just not say anything at all...... We will just have to wait and see.

Maybe we can ask him. Anyone have his email address?

[edit] If you want to find the link, it is in my signature.


----------



## Que

Jhon69 said:


> Well I have never had Tivo and I don't really care for sports that said do I think the DirecTV DVR+ should have DLB?.Of course it should and here's the reason why.DirecTV has the best programming why can't DirecTV have the best DVR?.Without DLB DirecTV does not have the best DVR product on the market.


...but it's not just Tivo with DLB. EVERY OTHER DVR out there has DLB. Just not the DirecTV plus line DVR.

[google] "Swap tuners" "How to change to the other Tuner"


----------



## Doug Brott

Que, maybe one of these days we'll see your face ..

2166


----------



## puffnstuff

Que said:


> So are you saying that DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual lie to us?? .


That's exactly what I've said before and I'm sticking to it . Hell , who knows if he even knows what DLB are . That's why we haven't heard crap from him since then .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> That's exactly what I've said before and I'm sticking to it . Hell , who knows if he even knows what DLB are . That's why we haven't heard crap from him since then .


Seriously, do really believe the Chief of Technology for DirecTV doesn't know what Dual Live Buffers are?

We know DirecTV is aware of this forum and this thread.

When I was in college I visited a company that made golf clubs as part of my senior project. I got to meet the head of R&D. His office was jam packed with golf clubs.

There were no less then 100 clubs in varing degrees of dissembly. Club heads cut in sections in every direction you can think of. And Oh Yeah, 90% of the equipment belonged to the competition.

Romulo Pontual is well aware of what features are in his DVRs. I pretty darned sure he knows what's in the competitions hardware/software almost as well.

My point....IMHO, Romulo Pontual not only knows what DLB is but is also painfully aware that the DVR+ doesn't have them.

For my 2¢ anyway....

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

Some CTOs know their business / some don't. I was consulting with a fabric manufacturer 15 years ago that bought a mult- Million $ Enterprise Manufacturing System on the recommendation of a big Four accounting house.

They sold their product by yardage or bolts of cloth. Turns out the only units of measure this highly recommended package would do was pairs or boxes (of shoes)! They had used it for a shoe manufacturer!

Could be why we don't have DLB . . .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> Some CTOs know their business / some don't. I was consulting with a fabric manufacturer 15 years ago that bought a mult- Million $ Enterprise Manufacturing System on the recommendation of a big Four accounting house.
> 
> They sold their product by yardage or bolts of cloth. Turns out the only units of measure this highly recommended package would do was pairs or boxes (of shoes)! They had used it for a shoe manufacturer!
> 
> Could be why we don't have DLB . . .


I would have to say that's the exception rather then the rule.

Especially considering we're talking about mature products and not new technology. 

You don't work with this kind of product for years and not know what it does.

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

MicroBeta said:


> Seriously, do really believe the Chief of Technology for DirecTV doesn't know what Dual Live Buffers are?
> 
> We know DirecTV is aware of this forum and this thread.
> 
> When I was in college I visited a company that made golf clubs as part of my senior project. I got to meet the head of R&D. His office was jam packed with golf clubs.
> 
> There were no less then 100 clubs in varing degrees of dissembly. Club heads cut in sections in every direction you can think of. And Oh Yeah, 90% of the equipment belonged to the competition.
> 
> Romulo Pontual is well aware of what features are in his DVRs. I pretty darned sure he knows what's in the competitions hardware/software almost as well.
> 
> My point....IMHO, Romulo Pontual not only knows what DLB is but is also painfully aware that the DVR+ doesn't have them.
> 
> For my 2¢ anyway....
> 
> Mike


Maybe he does or doesn't but I have never talked to anybody at Directv that does and their lack of progress on the issue doesn't lead me to believe otherwise . Also to say something better is coming and leave it at that , is bull , at least let us know some kind of time frame . That way I can at least be happy until that date comes and they miss it .


----------



## Richierich

I am AUTORIZING THIS THREAD to be CLOSED, so MODERATORS do your job and shut it down!!!

Either get me DLB or Close This Thread as I am tired of the debate and being teased either deliberately or accidentally!!! LOL!!!


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> Good luck finding it .. I actually remember why this thread was unstuck and it had nothing to do with "Somthing Better" .. In fact, I locked that thread .. which is why it hasn't been around .. because it had simply turned into a facsimile of this thread .. might as well keep the discussion in the same spot ..


Yes I found were you reopened this thread and then unstuck right after the Something Better than DLB thread was started May 3rd. This thread was to live an die on its own, back on page 62/63 May 4-6th, with all the Better than DLB fans, predicting the end of this debate, as DLB wouldn't be needed.

Looks like Something better is Still DOWN THE road, and DLB wishing is here to stay. I think it might be easier to list the Carriers that DON'T offer DLB than those that do nowadays. Granted D* is right at the top, of the MISSING FEATURE


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> ...but it's not just Tivo with DLB. EVERY OTHER DVR out there has DLB. Just not the DirecTV plus line DVR.
> 
> [google] "Swap tuners" "How to change to the other Tuner"


Yea almost all the subscribers I have talked about changing from the HR10-250 to the DVR+ don't know DLB.But then they ask about"swapping tuners" you know they know exactly what DLB is.


----------



## Rocker07

MicroBeta said:


> Seriously, do really believe the Chief of Technology for DirecTV doesn't know what Dual Live Buffers are?
> 
> We know DirecTV is aware of this forum and this thread.
> 
> When I was in college I visited a company that made golf clubs as part of my senior project. I got to meet the head of R&D. His office was jam packed with golf clubs.
> 
> There were no less then 100 clubs in varing degrees of dissembly. Club heads cut in sections in every direction you can think of. And Oh Yeah, 90% of the equipment belonged to the competition.
> 
> Romulo Pontual is well aware of what features are in his DVRs. I pretty darned sure he knows what's in the competitions hardware/software almost as well.
> 
> My point....IMHO, Romulo Pontual not only knows what DLB is but is also painfully aware that the DVR+ doesn't have them.
> 
> For my 2¢ anyway....
> 
> Mike


Soooooo, you're saying he just doesn't give a [email protected]&%.


----------



## Buddy

So, this thread has been going for 6 months and nearly 2600 posts. Why doesn't D* get the message? Yeah, because they don't give a @#$&#*($. This feature is just not that difficult to implement and D* is making a conscious decision to ignore a significant part of it's customer base. I don't know if other cable systems have DVRs that do this but I am going to start looking around as I no longer subscribe to NFL Sunday ticket and that was the only thing keeping me on D*. This box has been a disappointment from day one and I could list a dozen deficiencies that have not been fixed in the year and a half that I have had this box.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Rocker07 said:


> Soooooo, you're saying he just doesn't give a [email protected]&%.





Buddy said:


> So, this thread has been going for 6 months and nearly 2600 posts. Why doesn't D* get the message? Yeah, because they don't give a @#$&#*($. This feature is just not that difficult to implement and D* is making a conscious decision to ignore a significant part of it's customer base. I don't know if other cable systems have DVRs that do this but I am going to start looking around as I no longer subscribe to NFL Sunday ticket and that was the only thing keeping me on D*. This box has been a disappointment from day one and I could list a dozen deficiencies that have not been fixed in the year and a half that I have had this box.


I don't think I ever said anything about how Directv feels about DLB. :sure:

My point was just that I don't believe that Directv is unaware of DLB and how we feel about it.

I don't know why people seem to think this is so simple. If you read through this and the original DLB thread (link below) you will see it's much deeper then that.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

I can hear it now, "it is that simple, implement it or tell us why not". 

It is very rare for a company to give reasons for making a particular decision. I don't understand why people think Directv owes us an explaination. They're not elected officials, they are a business making business decisions. They are under no obligation to tell us anything regardless of the fact we think it's the right thing to do. I agree with the idea that Directv should tell us something but I'm not holding my breath. :grin:

What if the reason has to do with a future feature set. Do you think they would give away with kind of info?

At any rate, I think that the situation is more complicated then "do it or tell us why"

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big advocate for DLB but I'm under no illusions that Directv (or any company for that matter) will ever justify or give reasons for their decisions.

I (and others) have posted theories as to why Directv went from saying we're trying to find the best way to implement DBL to saying they've decided not to include DLB.

But, I have to admit, even with all theories and speculation, I thought there would be somthing by now. 

I kind of thought that they would have "something better" ready for football season but I guess not....bummer...:nono2:

I keep waiting and hoping but I'm also realistic as to what I can expect for information.

Who knows, maybe when the implement "something better", they might give us some reasons...or not.:lol:

Mike


----------



## DC_SnDvl

dennisj00 said:


> The last two posts sum it up . . . DLB and MRV would make the HR2x the BEST dvr on the market.


Don't forget a real slo-mo feature. How can holding the pause button for 3 seconds before it starts be called a usable feature?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

MicroBeta said:


> Seriously, do really believe the Chief of Technology for DirecTV doesn't know what Dual Live Buffers are?
> 
> Mike


If he knew what is was it would have been in the R15.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's not a fair assessment. Perhaps you meant to say, "if he knew how important it was to this group, he might have included it."


----------



## sagle

Keep in mind, this is a DBS company, not a DVR company. The CTO may be an expert in much of the technology, but not DVRs, or he may know DVRs inside and out. I don't think anyone knows his level of knowledge unless to you know the CTO personally. I want DLB too, but I am pretty sure the CTO has other things on his plate he is more worried about.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

When I met Mr. Pontual at the Consumer Electronics Show in January, he seemed extremely knowledgeable about DVRs. We spoke for some time, and he seemed extremely well-versed.


----------



## Doug Brott

Buddy said:


> So, this thread has been going for 6 months and nearly 2600 posts. Why doesn't D* get the message? Yeah, because they don't give a @#$&#*($. This feature is just not that difficult to implement and D* is making a conscious decision to ignore a significant part of it's customer base. I don't know if other cable systems have DVRs that do this but I am going to start looking around as I no longer subscribe to NFL Sunday ticket and that was the only thing keeping me on D*. This box has been a disappointment from day one and I could list a dozen deficiencies that have not been fixed in the year and a half that I have had this box.


Would the existence of DLB keep you with DIRECTV? ..


----------



## GrumpyBear

I do know that without DLB, many, including me, wont come over to Direct, even for the NFL Package.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> I do know that without DLB, many, including me, wont come over to Direct, even for the NFL Package.


So you don't have DIRECTV or you just don't have an HR2x?


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> Would the existence of DLB keep you with DIRECTV? ..


For me, it isn't a deciding factor alone, but it certainly is a large consideration when I re-evaluate when my contract is up.


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> Would the existence of DLB keep you with DIRECTV? ..


I've been a Directv customer since 1996, and the absence of DLB and their subsequent refusal to implement this feature has me considering a change of provider for the first time.

To have it on the HR10, and then taken away due to a forced "upgrade" to the HR2* has left a bitter taste in my mouth. THAT'S what gets me the most about the lack of DLB.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## ub1934

Flyrx7 said:


> I've been a Directv customer since 1996 and the absence of DLB and their subsequent refusal to implement this feature has me considering a change of provider for the first time.
> 
> To have it on the HR10, and then taken away due to a forced "upgrade" to the HR2* has left a bitter taste in my mouth. THAT'S what gets me the most about the lack of DLB.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


* DTV since 1999 , Wife just found out the HR 20-700 does not have DLBs & now wants my HR10-250 back as the main set or else go to someone who has DLBs in their DVRs  *


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> So you don't have DIRECTV or you just don't have an HR2x?


For some of us, we have D* and are getting along with SD boxes and waiting to see a HD DVR we'd actually make the move for. If one of my SD boxes dies in a fashion I can't fix (something other than a disk drive), then I'll be forced to a decision about my provider. Right now, I can't see moving to a HR2x based on it's apparent sensitivity to install quality and lack of DLB. My wife would adjust to no DLB (while complaining about it), but no DLB and issues with missed/blank recordings would be an issue. I also use DLB a lot, and find it kind of a "no brainer" for a maker of DVRs to have in their product line. (If Time Warner has it in their lame-ish Scientific Atlanta boxes, D* can't do it?)

So, D* is at liberty to do whatever they want in regards to DLB. I'm able to get enough HD with my OTA HTPC capability to get my HD fix for now. Once the time comes that my SD boxes are no longer viable, I'll pick whoever I judge to be best provider and go with them. With a 2 year committment for any new D* boxes, I'll have to be convinced I like their offering. FWIW.


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> So, D* is at liberty to do whatever they want in regards to DLB. I'm able to get enough HD with my OTA HTPC capability to get my HD fix for now. Once the time comes that my SD boxes are no longer viable, I'll pick whoever I judge to be best provider and go with them. With a 2 year committment for any new D* boxes, I'll have to be convinced I like their offering. FWIW.


Thanks for the note ..


----------



## dennisj00

DC_SnDvl said:


> Don't forget a real slo-mo feature. How can holding the pause button for 3 seconds before it starts be called a usable feature?


Maybe I'm missing something with Slo-Mo, but I don't hold the pause button for 3 seconds. . . I just pause at the point I want to start Slo-Mo and then use Rw or FF to see what I want. It's more of a frame by frame but that's what I usually want to see (fumbles, body parts, etc) than a running slo-mo.

In fact, I just tried holding the pause button 3 seconds and don't get any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

dennisj00 said:


> Maybe I'm missing something with Slo-Mo, but I don't hold the pause button for 3 seconds. . . I just pause at the point I want to start Slo-Mo and then use Rw or FF to see what I want. It's more of a frame by frame but that's what I usually want to see (fumbles, body parts, etc) than a running slo-mo.
> 
> In fact, I just tried holding the pause button 3 seconds and don't get any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.


You don't hold the pause button. You need to hold the play button for 3 seconds.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Michael D'Angelo;1760102 said:


> You don't hold the pause button. You need to hold the play button for 3 seconds.


Sorry my bad. Still a 1/2 way implementation. What does TIVO have a patent on a slo-mo button?


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> Sorry my bad. Still a 1/2 way implementation. What does TIVO have a patent on a slo-mo button?


Actually, regardless, DIRECTV has access to the TiVo Patent book at present and have covered themselves with the purchase of Replay (who also holds significant Patent rights). So even if it were a TiVo Patent (clearly not, BTW) .. it wouldn't matter.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, regardless, DIRECTV has access to the TiVo Patent book at present and have covered themselves with the purchase of Replay (who also holds significant Patent rights). So even if it were a TiVo Patent (clearly not, BTW) .. it wouldn't matter.


Ok I know this is off topic . But if it's not patents or all the other guesses that have been shot down , I just don't understand how Directv missed all of these things in R&D . I mean DLB , skip to tick ( proper ) and all other press and hold implementation . They had a platform that had this all worked out , so they dump them and decide to do everything half assed . It's been 2 years ( in 2 weeks ) and we still don't have these features worked out or even on the board . It just makes me so mad , that they act like they could care less about their customers and just want to be able to say me too to the cable industry and then the things still only half work .


----------



## MX727

Doug Brott said:


> Would the existence of DLB keep you with DIRECTV? ..


Yes, and it is the ONLY thing at this point that will keep me and at this point I don't think there is enough time for them to even announce it before I am forced to go to Dish.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> Ok I know this is off topic . But if it's not patents or all the other guesses that have been shot down , I just don't understand how Directv missed all of these things in R&D . I mean DLB , skip to tick ( proper ) and all other press and hold implementation . They had a platform that had this all worked out , so they dump them and decide to do everything half assed . It's been 2 years ( in 2 weeks ) and we still don't have these features worked out or even on the board . It just makes me so mad , that they act like they could care less about their customers and just want to be able to say me too to the cable industry and then the things still only half work .


Remember it takes two to tango ..


----------



## rustynails

I was essentially forced to D from E due to los issues. I knew that D's dvr would not be as good as E but if I wanted to see HD programming in a decent quality picture that was my only choice. I don't like the HR21 but its all that I have to use right now. Hopefully some time in the future they will have a better HDDVR! Maybe when my 2 year commitment is up and I can get los with new sats at Dish!


----------



## kanderna

dennisj00 said:


> It's more of a frame by frame but that's what I usually want to see (fumbles, *body parts*, etc) than a running slo-mo.


:lol: :lol:


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> Remember it takes two to tango ..


I know , I know  Honestly I love my 4 HR's . but the thing with me is I bought mine the first day I could find one , if you look at my post history I was actually the post that Earl refered to when he said they were woking on implementing it a long long time ago and before that CSR's told me they were going to be there ( since that month have only called them to activate recievers ). That was the only thing that made me keep my HR at the time , but since then I have only missed one CE and have not had any real problems . ( Football Hall of Fame this year , the only other I almost missed was last years Baseball HOF for Cal but there wasn't one  ) Saying that I use every feature available and now find the HR way better than any TIVO I ever had ( since it's almost the same UI as the best DVR ever UTV ) But still , all of the extra stuff seems to be only halfway there after . So 2 years and I still don't have DLB , which I consider a core DVR Function . Then I'm told that something better is coming , but when ? When they come out with Directv2Go . I just want a itty , bitty , little chicken bone about something with this issue . Also I have not been under any contract wth Directv for over a year and a half and still stay ( but I did get rid of Sunday ticket because of no DLB again this year ) it just sucks I have to have 2 HR's and a Comcrap HD box just to be able to simulate , workaround or whatever for DLB . Sorry about the wall of text


----------



## Rocker07

Flyrx7 said:


> I've been a Directv customer since 1996, and the absence of DLB and their subsequent refusal to implement this feature has me considering a change of provider for the first time.
> 
> To have it on the HR10, and then taken away due to a forced "upgrade" to the HR2* has left a bitter taste in my mouth. THAT'S what gets me the most about the lack of DLB.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Frank, I'm in the same boat. Been with D* since '96 and if they lose the Sunday Ticket (or go up on the price anymore) then I'm looking elsewhere and DLB's will be at the top of my list. This past football season without DLB's was awful.......This D* guy may know the DVR's backwards and forwards and he may know what DLB's are, but I bet he doesn't watch FOOTBALL!!!


----------



## inkahauts

puffnstuff said:


> Maybe he does or doesn't but I have never talked to anybody at Directv that does and their lack of progress on the issue doesn't lead me to believe otherwise . Also to say something better is coming and leave it at that , is bull , at least let us know some kind of time frame . That way I can at least be happy until that date comes and they miss it .


Ah, actually there has been work done that has brought us closer to DLB lately... You can now use the prev button to flip seemlessly back and forth between to recorded programs, and the unit automatically pauses the recording that it is leaving.


----------



## inkahauts

Rocker07 said:


> Frank, I'm in the same boat. Been with D* since '96 and if they lose the Sunday Ticket (or go up on the price anymore) then I'm looking elsewhere and DLB's will be at the top of my list. This past football season without DLB's was awful.......This D* guy may know the DVR's backwards and forwards and he may know what DLB's are, but I bet he doesn't watch FOOTBALL!!!


If you are so inclined to watch 2 specific games only, which is the only time dlb works anyway, when your only flipping between two statoions, then why not just set both games to be recorded and once you have them both playing, hitting the prev button will flip you between them and pause the one your not watching. Yep... one button press... thats easier than DLB switching is... I know its not full DLB.. but it is one more step to it...


----------



## Richierich

When did they implement the function where it automatically Pauses when you hit the Prev Button to switch between 2 recorded shows???


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> If you are so inclined to watch 2 specific games only, *which is the only time dlb works anyway*, when your only flipping between two statoions, then why not just set both games to be recorded and once you have them both playing, hitting the prev button will flip you between them and pause the one your not watching. Yep... one button press... thats easier than DLB switching is... I know its not full DLB.. but it is one more step to it...


Huh? On my HR10-250's, I could anchor one tuner on the Packers and let the other tuner surf. Even tho I would be surfing on that second tuner, I could, from time to time, use it for my own instant replay after watching for awhile.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Ok, Here is my latest theory on what is coming that will be better than DLB... 

First, it is apparent to me that the reserved space on the hard drive is big enough for 10 hd mpeg-4 movies now and the other little things they throw in there, and 2 90 min live buffers.... based on approximately 4 gigs of hard drive space per hour, and somewhere around 100 to 110 Gigs set aside on each drive for Directv's use...

SO maybe what they are planning on doing is... keeping a buffer for EVERYTHING that is going on on Tuner 1 for the last 90mins, and then doing this for both tuners. In other words, even if you change stations, you will have the last 90mins in the buffer, so if you go back, you will see what was on the other channel just before you changed stations. That would be awesome if you ask me, because say you hit pause and walk out of the room at 9:45pm and you don't come back until 10:05 because someone kept you on the phone, and the unit had to change channels so that it could record other things at 10pm... normally you'd loose your live buffered program, even with tivo. With my idea, you'd be able to still finish watching what you were watching....


----------



## inkahauts

Tom Robertson said:


> Huh? On my HR10-250's, I could anchor one tuner on the Packers and let the other tuner surf. Even tho I would be surfing on that second tuner, I could, from time to time, use it for my own instant replay after watching for awhile.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


On the tuner your surfing with, each time you change channel, doesn't the buffer get flushed? I was only referring to when you are switching between just two programs and being able to keep the live buffers for both... probably should have worded it better.

Actually, I wonder what gets used more by the people in this site, and I am not sure if I have ever seen anyone ask... DLB or SLB and channel surfing on the other tuner? I actually find the SLB and channel surfing more desirable than DLB.


----------



## inkahauts

richierich said:


> When did they implement the function where it automatically Pauses when you hit the Prev Button to switch between 2 recorded shows???


Oh &^%&^$^%^&%*%& sorry.. It hasn't hit main stream yet...

Read the first post here..

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=137058


----------



## luckydob

richierich said:


> When did they implement the function where it automatically Pauses when you hit the Prev Button to switch between 2 recorded shows???


Doesn't really matter, this has already been available when you could "resume" any program that you had previously started that was recorded/being recorded. All this did was cut a few steps out of the process. This gets us no closer to DLB than where we were 2 years ago.

The whole point of DLB is to be able to pause "live" TV and switch tuners with one button press. Need an example? See D* HR10-250. We had it and then it was taken away...and yes it was taken away.

On a side note, I can get media share or something less likely to be used than DLB on the HR20-100.


----------



## Tom Robertson

inkahauts said:


> On the tuner your surfing with, each time you change channel, doesn't the buffer get flushed? I was only referring to when you are switching between just two programs and being able to keep the live buffers for both... probably should have worded it better.
> 
> Actually, I wonder what gets used more by the people in this site, and I am not sure if I have ever seen anyone ask... DLB or SLB and channel surfing on the other tuner? I actually find the SLB and channel surfing more desirable than DLB.


Sounds like a lot of people truly DLB as you describe--two shows alternating (and they find the workarounds do somewhat do what they want.) I do use the SLB/Surfing--with some buffer use on that second tuner from time to time.

And yes, the buffer is flushed each time I surf.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DC_SnDvl

inkahauts said:


> If you are so inclined to watch 2 specific games only, which is the only time dlb works anyway, when your only flipping between two statoions, then why not just set both games to be recorded and once you have them both playing, hitting the prev button will flip you between them and pause the one your not watching. Yep... one button press... thats easier than DLB switching is... I know its not full DLB.. but it is one more step to it...


Sometimes you might not have the free space to do this, and you also run into the dumped buffer at the end of the game if it goes long.

It works sometimes but it is still a joke.


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> Huh? On my HR10-250's, I could anchor one tuner on the Packers and let the other tuner surf. Even tho I would be surfing on that second tuner, I could, from time to time, use it for my own instant replay after watching for awhile.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Same here, I used to anchor the Packer's game, then surf to another game or other programming during commercials/timeouts/halftime. This worked really well with NFLST. But as I did not have DLB last fall, I cancelled NFLST. If D* wants more $$ from me, all they have to do is implement DLB the way TiVo does, and I will resign up for NFLST.


----------



## usmcbob55

Does anyone else have the problem that when using the working around you can't use the SF interactive shenanigans (red button guide)?


----------



## bonscott87

ATARI said:


> Same here, I used to anchor the Packer's game, then surf to another game or other programming during commercials/timeouts/halftime. This worked really well with NFLST. But as I did not have DLB last fall, I cancelled NFLST. If D* wants more $$ from me, all they have to do is implement DLB the way TiVo does, and I will resign up for NFLST.


I would do this back in the day with the Bears on my DirecTivo. After losing the Bears game too many times to channel changes where I would forget to switch tuners first I would set it to record and use the 2nd tuner to surf other games.

But what I don't understand is what does "true" DLB have to do with doing this? This can easily be done on the HR20 as well. Set the Bears (or Packers as you prefer) to record and use the free tuner to surf however many games you'd like. The "anchor" game sticks no matter what since it's being recorded (and thus doesn't accidentally get flushed by wild channel changes) and you can surf to your hearts content on the other tuner. Sounds to me like the way many people watch Sunday Ticket with one anchor game works just perfectly on the HR20 as it does on the Tivo. What am I missing?


----------



## Doug Brott

inkahauts said:


> If you are so inclined to watch 2 specific games only, which is the only time dlb works anyway, when your only flipping between two statoions, then why not just set both games to be recorded and once you have them both playing, hitting the prev button will flip you between them and pause the one your not watching. Yep... one button press... thats easier than DLB switching is... I know its not full DLB.. but it is one more step to it...


This is the method that I will be using extensively this fall .. If you're short on space, it will be a problem .. but I've always found I have enough space to do this. Often I'd "reset" this setup @ halftime so I'm only recording 1/2 as much .. and then at the end of the games just delete them both.

In two years of doing this, I've never caused one of my "saved" shows to go away .. but YMMV.


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> When did they implement the function where it automatically Pauses when you hit the Prev Button to switch between 2 recorded shows???












OK .. here's where I'm going to have to put the brakes on .. This feature is not yet available to the general public .. You can see it noted in the following release notes:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=137058

This is part of the CE program and I'd ask that if you'd like to discuss this particular feature that you move over to the CE forum: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=146

Also, keep in mind that the rules in the CE forum are a bit more strict than they are here in the HD DVR forum.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> Huh? On my HR10-250's, I could anchor one tuner on the Packers and let the other tuner surf. Even tho I would be surfing on that second tuner, I could, from time to time, use it for my own instant replay after watching for awhile.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom





ATARI said:


> Same here, I used to anchor the Packer's game, then surf to another game or other programming during commercials/timeouts/halftime. This worked really well with NFLST. But as I did not have DLB last fall, I cancelled NFLST. If D* wants more $$ from me, all they have to do is implement DLB the way TiVo does, and I will resign up for NFLST.


Admittedly, you still have to record one game (Packers in you guys' case), but you can do exactly what you've described.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1713997&postcount=2422


> *Workaround #2 - toggle between recording Buffer tuner 2 (not buffered)*
> 
> 
> 
> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #2*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and watch Live TV
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> Show 2 buffer will be gone once you toggle to Show 1
> You can channel surf on Tuner 2 while Show 1 continues to be buffered/recorded
> Show 1 continues to move forward in time if you do not press {PAUSE}
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x254 and above ..
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind with Workaround #2 .. You can channel surf until your heart is content on Tuner 2. Each time you change to a new channel on Tuner 2, the buffer will be flushed. If you key in the channel number for Show 1 (the buffered/recorded program), then you will have full access to that program .. kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner.
Click to expand...


----------



## ATARI

Doug,

I did use that workwaround a couple times during the olympics. Now you mention that they have added automatic Pause to the CE?

Sounds like they are inching towards true DLB.

I won't hold my breath, but I will keep my fingers crossed.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Let's keep discussion of Cutting Edge features in the CE forum, please.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

ATARI said:


> Doug,
> 
> I did use that workwaround a couple times during the olympics. Now you mention that they have added automatic Pause to the CE?
> 
> Sounds like they are inching towards true DLB.
> 
> I won't hold my breath, but I will keep my fingers crossed.


I used it also durring the olympics. The problem with football games is they don't end when the guide thinks they end and you might miss the end of the game.


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> I used it also durring the olympics. The problem with football games is they don't end when the guide thinks they end and you might miss the end of the game.


That's what manual padding is for  .. Yes, the workarounds are not perfect, but it does make the experience much better.


----------



## tthunder38

Keep in mind with Workaround #2 .. You can channel surf until your heart is content on Tuner 2. Each time you change to a new channel on Tuner 2, the buffer will be flushed. If you key in the channel number for Show 1 (the buffered/recorded program), then you will have full access to that program .. kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner. 




Doug,
WIth this workaround can you view both tuners at the same time via PIP? My belief is that PIP should be implemented with DLB in order to get the most out of both tuners. I prefer to watch one game on the big screen while keeping the second game going thru picture in picture. You can easily flip back and forth on the tuners between plays.


----------



## Starchy77

Over 100 pages on this thread??? When is DTV going to finally implement this? It is obviously something that most of us want. I haven't used DLB since I got rid of my HR10-250, but I would like to once the NFL season starts. The workarounds just seem too complicated, and if the game goes long.... Why should I have to use manual padding? How much padding should be used? 1/2 hour, hour, 3 hours? I guess I could just go long and stop/delete when I am finished using it, but again it is complicated. The HR2X's could be so much better then the HR10-250's by using that 90 minute buffer on 2 channels at once, but without it we seem to just be missing a feature that makes DVR's so great to use. Please, DTV, give us our DLB's back!


----------



## Doug Brott

tthunder38 said:


> Doug,
> WIth this workaround can you view both tuners at the same time via PIP? My belief is that PIP should be implemented with DLB in order to get the most out of both tuners. I prefer to watch one game on the big screen while keeping the second game going thru picture in picture. You can easily flip back and forth on the tuners between plays.


No .. the HR20 does not have PiP capabilities.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Starchy77 said:


> Over 100 pages on this thread??? When is DTV going to finally implement this? It is obviously something that most of us want. I haven't used DLB since I got rid of my HR10-250, but I would like to once the NFL season starts. The workarounds just seem too complicated, and if the game goes long.... Why should I have to use manual padding? How much padding should be used? 1/2 hour, hour, 3 hours? I guess I could just go long and stop/delete when I am finished using it, but again it is complicated. The HR2X's could be so much better then the HR10-250's by using that 90 minute buffer on 2 channels at once, but without it we seem to just be missing a feature that makes DVR's so great to use. Please, DTV, give us our DLB's back!


+1


----------



## Doug Brott

Starchy77 said:


> Over 100 pages on this thread??? When is DTV going to finally implement this? It is obviously something that most of us want. I haven't used DLB since I got rid of my HR10-250, but I would like to once the NFL season starts. The workarounds just seem too complicated, and if the game goes long.... Why should I have to use manual padding? How much padding should be used? 1/2 hour, hour, 3 hours? I guess I could just go long and stop/delete when I am finished using it, but again it is complicated. The HR2X's could be so much better then the HR10-250's by using that 90 minute buffer on 2 channels at once, but without it we seem to just be missing a feature that makes DVR's so great to use. Please, DTV, give us our DLB's back!


If the workaround is too complicated, then don't use it .. It's just there as an alternative since DLB isn't available at this time ..


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Doug Brott said:


> No .. the HR20 does not have PiP capabilities.


I thought it was reported on here that the Broadcom (however you spell it) chip can indeed do PIP with a software download?

Thanks


----------



## Rocker07

inkahauts said:


> If you are so inclined to watch 2 specific games only, which is the only time dlb works anyway, when your only flipping between two statoions, then why not just set both games to be recorded and once you have them both playing, hitting the prev button will flip you between them and pause the one your not watching. Yep... one button press... thats easier than DLB switching is... I know its not full DLB.. but it is one more step to it...


Never watched just one game....put tuner on one and during break I'd switch to the other tuner and channel surf or flip between other games to see what else was going on. Not only did that during games but with watching regular programming also.


----------



## luckydob

Rocker07 said:


> Never watched just one game....put tuner on one and during break I'd switch to the other tuner and channel surf or flip between other games to see what else was going on. Not only did that during games but with watching regular programming also.


+10


----------



## GrumpyBear

The work around, works great if you are trying to watch something from beginning to end, sometimes you just want to check something out, without having to ruin what everybody esle is currently watching. Case inpoint is Nascar Racing, or even The weather channel. Now the Nascar Race I will have the other tuner Anchored, to the race so I can just jump in and out and then sit down the last 30 or so laps. Now for the news and Weather, its nice to beable to just PAUSE, what the family is watching, switch over to the weather or news for a quick update, and then unpause what the family was watching while I was out doing something else around the house. 
Why have to record what the family is watching for a 5min to 10min switch over To another Channel?!? When it would be just simpler to pause tuner 1, change channels on the tuner 2, and then go back to watching the 1st tuner, and not have a bunch of 5 to 10 min recordings?!?!?!


----------



## Flyrx7

At this point I think that it's ridiculous to have to explain why the work-around sucks or why the Tivo version of DLB is better; the other party is only going to hear what they want to hear and understand what they want to understand.

So for those that have to say "Just use the work-around this way, it's just like DLB", please just keep it to yourself, but thanks for the offer anyway.

If it takes 10 pages of explanation or discussion on how to use the work-around then it's definetely not DLB as it's supposed to be. Period. 
DLB shouldn't need a step-by-step set of instructions. Just hit the down arrow. Done.


----------



## dennisj00

Pretty good summary!!


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> So for those that have to say "Just use the work-around this way, it's just like DLB", please just keep it to yourself, but thanks for the offer anyway.


It's an alternative, and with new folks coming in every day it's fair to point out .. If you don't want to use it .. well, don't .. and I will guarantee you that I never once said it was "just like DLB." That's why we say "workaround" when we talk about it. It's a way to work around the problem at hand.


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> It's an alternative, and with new folks coming in every day it's fair to point out .. If you don't want to use it .. well, don't .. and I will guarantee you that I never once said it was "just like DLB." That's why we say "workaround" when we talk about it. It's a way to work around the problem at hand.


Yes Doug you never gild the lily unless you're speaking in rhymes and riddles


----------



## jdspencer

Do you want two 90 minute live buffers?

Get a second DVR.


----------



## ub1934

jdspencer said:


> Do you want two 90 minute live buffers?
> 
> Get a second DVR.


* Will take two 45 min. dlbs and one IRD :lol: *


----------



## Que

Doug Brott said:


> Que, maybe one of these days we'll see your face ..


Man I hope so but, then I would have to get BJ to make me another avatar doing the DLB happy dance.


----------



## Que

puffnstuff said:


> I know , I know  Honestly I love my 4 HR's . but the thing with me is I bought mine the first day I could find one , if you look at my post history I was actually the post that Earl refered to when he said they were woking on implementing it a long long time ago and before that CSR's told me they were going to be there ( since that month have only called them to activate recievers ). That was the only thing that made me keep my HR at the time , but since then I have only missed one CE and have not had any real problems . ( Football Hall of Fame this year , the only other I almost missed was last years Baseball HOF for Cal but there wasn't one  ) Saying that I use every feature available and now find the HR way better than any TIVO I ever had ( since it's almost the same UI as the best DVR ever UTV ) But still , all of the extra stuff seems to be only halfway there after . So 2 years and I still don't have DLB , which I consider a core DVR Function . Then I'm told that something better is coming , but when ? When they come out with Directv2Go . I just want a itty , bitty , little chicken bone about something with this issue . Also I have not been under any contract wth Directv for over a year and a half and still stay ( but I did get rid of Sunday ticket because of no DLB again this year ) it just sucks I have to have 2 HR's and a Comcrap HD box just to be able to simulate , workaround or whatever for DLB . Sorry about the wall of text


Hey puffnstuff,

Did you snail mail a *Letter* to Office of the President? It might help if there is enough people to do it. It is a last ditch effort before you move to another provider. The + line DVR is a great DVR but, it could be some much better.


----------



## sunking

ub1934 said:


> * Will take two 45 min. dlbs and one IRD :lol: *


I don't know why everyone worries so much about the length of the buffers. 3hrs is piddle. They're willing to give up a heck of a lot more for the stupid showcases that I never watch. Really, it's less than a LoTR movie worth of space. There's no reason to split it up.


----------



## puffnstuff

Que said:


> Hey puffnstuff,
> 
> Did you snail mail a *Letter* to Office of the President? It might help if there is enough people to do it. It is a last ditch effort before you move to another provider. The + line DVR is a great DVR but, it could be some much better.


Yes , I have but not in the last couple of months . I will do another today ! Thanks for remonding me .


----------



## ATARI

sunking said:


> I don't know why everyone worries so much about the length of the buffers. 3hrs is piddle. They're willing to give up a heck of a lot more for the stupid showcases that I never watch. Really, it's less than a LoTR movie worth of space. There's no reason to split it up.


How about 2, two-hour buffers, and no showcases?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Brainstorm all you want, the showcases aren't goin' away. 

Now who knows if there might be one fewer, but that would be cutting into potential revenue.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## n3ntj

Is D* ever going to come clean and tell us what this "better than DLB" feature will be? I am tied of waiting for Dual Live Buffers and D* remaining silent.


----------



## puffnstuff

n3ntj said:


> Is D* ever going to come clean and tell us what this "better than DLB" feature will be? I am tied of waiting for Dual Live Buffers and D* remaining silent.


Nope , it's a state secret obviously .


----------



## bonscott87

n3ntj said:


> I am tied of waiting for Dual Live Buffers and D* remaining silent.


Why are you still waiting. They said that DLB isn't coming and said it a long time ago. Not sure what more you want.


----------



## Lord Vader

Tom Robertson said:


> Brainstorm all you want, the showcases aren't goin' away.
> 
> Now who knows if there might be one fewer, but that would be cutting into potential revenue.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Even if no one on the planet is watching that crap?


----------



## Doug Brott

n3ntj said:


> Is D* ever going to come clean and tell us what this "better than DLB" feature will be? I am tied of waiting for Dual Live Buffers and D* remaining silent.


The answer is out there ..


----------



## veryoldschool

Doug Brott said:


> The answer is out there ..


You mean like.... [opps wrong forum] :lol:


----------



## inkahauts

I think its funny how mad peopel are about this, still at this point. Does no one ever let anything go?

Don't expect DLB to ever show up on an HR unit and for it to operate just like it did on the Tivos... EVER!!! They have said that the exact same thing will never show up. Period. 








(something better, yes, but not the exact same...)


----------



## GrumpyBear

Something better sure sounds like Vaporware. Granted wants it comes out, or becomes a little more Offical, People will be all over it. Until then 90% of users that think DLB is at least worthwhile, can continue to post, never letting the subject drop, as more than One company has said No No No Never, and then changed there minds. i.e. READ MY LIPS now KNEW TAX's.


----------



## dennisj00

inkahauts said:


> I think its funny how mad peopel are about this, still at this point. Does no one ever let anything go?
> 
> Don't expect DLB to ever show up on an HR unit and for it to operate just like it did on the Tivos... EVER!!! They have said that the exact same thing will never show up. Period.
> 
> (something better, yes, but not the exact same...)


Let's have it -- or at least start testing it. If I remember, that was April -- this is almost September -- and still no indication of anything better.


----------



## dennisj00

From the issues thread . . . another use of DLB!!



RandCfilm said:


> Is it possible it was recording in the background? so the tuner you were on was not recording but was on the same station. IF we had DLB like the TiVo's we could swap between tuners and figure this out ourselves.


Just give us DLB!


----------



## NickD

Doug Brott said:


> The answer is out there ..


I believe!


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> The answer is out there ..


You care to post a link to "the answer"? I tried searching but couldn't find one.


----------



## veryoldschool

Flyrx7 said:


> You care to post a link to "the answer"? I tried searching but couldn't find one.


You're just not on the Cutting Edge of all the new stuff.


----------



## James Long

DLB is working fine on my receiver. I don't know what all the hub bub is about, bub.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> DLB is working fine on my receiver. I don't know what all the hub bub is about, bub.


Quite the comedian aren't we.... :lol:

I think that hidden in the CE features are clues to "something better"

I've reading and plotting the feature set and......well.....ok I got nothin'.

What ever "something better" is, it better be DLBish. :grin:

Mike


----------



## lman

James Long said:


> DLB is working fine on my receiver. I don't know what all the hub bub is about, bub.


It works fine on my TIVO also.


----------



## Flyrx7

MicroBeta said:


> I've reading and plotting the feature set and......well.....ok I got nothin'.
> 
> What ever "something better" is, it better be DLBish. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Yeah, I got nothing too. The only thing I can find is (let's see, I guess I have to encrypt it here).....

- SSTT
- Channel #1080 Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers (or something)
- Something about watching TV in the office (hint, no TV in there)
- Poft Sadding
- Rotating LED's

So, I'm pretty sure I'm not looking in the right place, as none of those features are betty than DLB, but this might have promise......

01 - Toggle ------- --- recordings ---- --- {PREV} button (----- = omitted for non-clarity and CE subterfuge)

Can we say that what's in the buffer is considered a recording, whether or not we are actually recording? I mean, how does a buffer actually work? It does record/buffer content, right?

Hmmmm......

Regards,
Frank


----------



## veryoldschool

Flyrx7 said:


> So, I'm pretty sure I'm not looking in the right place, as none of those features are betty than DLB, but this might have promise......
> 
> 01 - Toggle ------- --- recordings ---- --- {PREV} button (----- = omitted for non-clarity and CE subterfuge)
> 
> Can we say that what's in the buffer is considered a recording, whether or not we are actually recording? I mean, how does a buffer actually work? It does record/buffer content, right?
> 
> Hmmmm......
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


While not as "simple as Tivo", setting up one or two recordings and then "toggling" between them as they're recording, kind of seems like what you'd get with DLB, but after you've pressed a button or two more.

"I mean, how does a buffer actually work?" 
In this case it records the program to the drive up to 90 min, and then starts deleting to limit the "stored" part. It also "dumps" with a channel change. DLB [in Tivo] writes for only 30 min, but both tuners do this, until you tune to a third channel, Then it "dumps".


----------



## Flyrx7

veryoldschool said:


> While not as "simple as Tivo", setting up one or two recordings and then "toggling" between them as they're recording, kind of seems like what you'd get with DLB, but after you've pressed a button or two more.
> 
> "I mean, how does a buffer actually work?"
> In this case it records the program to the drive up to 90 min, and then starts deleting to limit the "stored" part. It also "dumps" with a channel change. DLB [in Tivo] writes for only 30 min, but both tuners do this, until you tune to a third channel, Then it "dumps".


While this may be "DLBish" as MicroBeta coined, it is certainly not "Better Than", so that leads me to believe that the BTDLB feature is something else entirely, and not at all DLBish.

Now if D* could just finish off the DLB like it's supposed to be then I could care less of what's better. It seems like they are on the right track, and I do like the careful approach, but they need to give up on the "having to record 2 shows" in order to use the DLB function.

Still (im)patiently waiting.......


----------



## n3ntj

bonscott87 said:


> Why are you still waiting. They said that DLB isn't coming and said it a long time ago. Not sure what more you want.


I don't think I've every heard D* say DLB isn't coming, just that there are no plans to offer it soon. What we did hear, although, was that D* announced something better than DLB was coming. We've heard nothing about this 'something better' at all. I relied on DLB on my Tivo unit during baseball, hockey, and football seasons to follow more than 1 game at once. The 'record two games and switch back and forth' of items in the playlist is not an acceptable fix. For this of us who watch lots of sports, DLB is essential.

My only real beef with the HR2x series is the lack of DLB. I don't think I am the only one.


----------



## bonscott87

n3ntj said:


> I don't think I've every heard D* say DLB isn't coming, just that there are no plans to offer it soon. What we did hear, although, was that D* announced something better than DLB was coming.


It was in the same statemnet. "DLB is not coming, but we've got something better then DLB planned". Whatever better is.



> We've heard nothing about this 'something better' at all.


Yep we haven't. Who knows, could have been a smoke screen, could have been the better then has been cancelled or could be they are still working on it. Who knows.



> I relied on DLB on my Tivo unit during baseball, hockey, and football seasons to follow more than 1 game at once. The 'record two games and switch back and forth' of items in the playlist is not an acceptable fix. For this of us who watch lots of sports, DLB is essential.


Don't make that assumption. I watch a lot of sports and I don't find DLB essential at all. I record my Bears and use the other tuner to surf around to several games on Sunday Ticket....just like I did on my DirecTivo years ago. So I'm missing nothing, at least in my use. Certainly I understand you and others may not use it the same way, but not everyone that watches a lot of sports needs or cares about "true" DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

n3ntj said:


> ... What we did hear, although, was that D* announced something better than DLB was coming.


What you heard was a chat room discussion .. I do believe "announced" is a bit strong .. but yes, it was communicated.



n3ntj said:


> The 'record two games and switch back and forth' of items in the playlist is not an acceptable fix. For this of us who watch lots of sports, DLB is essential.


I don't believe anyone claimed recording both games was the best route .. It's a workaround that folks were able to demonstrate .. first documented by Milominderbinder2. In fact, the first-pass workaround didn't even work in every situation .. today there are 2 workarounds .. soon a third workaround will be available  .. and .. well, I don't know where we go from here, but I'm more optimistic now than I used to be ..


----------



## Flyrx7

bonscott87 said:


> It was in the same statemnet. "DLB is not coming, but we've got something better then DLB planned". Whatever better is.


Now you're just making quotes up to suit your anti-DLB stance. The quote-not to be quoted was more on the lines of "DLB can be done, but we've got something better planned."

Or you can post your definitive link where D* said it's not going to happen.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## bonscott87

Flyrx7 said:


> Now you're just making quotes up to suit your anti-DLB stance. The quote-not to be quoted was more on the lines of "DLB can be done, but we've got something better planned."
> 
> Or you can post your definitive link where D* said it's not going to happen.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


It was in the chat with the CTO. Anybody that was in the chat can tell you what was said. How can I link to something that was never posted? That was what he said, and I paraphrased. It was a simple statement that they aren't working on DLB (i.e. it's not coming) and something better was coming. Read into it what you will. And with all the controversy I'll bet he won't ever chat with us again.

And I'm not anti-DLB at all. I could care less if DLB comes or not. How does that make me anti-DLB? I just find it funny that some people act like DirecTV kicked their cat or something by not having DLB in the DVR for crying out loud. It's pretty widely known for over 3 years now that the DirecTV DVRs don't have DLB. Either deal with it or leave to a provider that has it. By all means express that you want it, but this constant crying about it and getting mad it's not here when they said they aren't working on it is just plain funny to me. :eek2: I'd think there are much better things to direct that energy to, like maybe help in testing CE releases that are actually getting closer and closer to DLB. By providing feedback on what they are doing in CE testing will give much better results I think then continued crying in this long ago tired thread.

But anyway, continue on with the posts...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I like marshmallows in my hot cocoa sometimes, but only when it's chilly out.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I like marshmallows in my hot cocoa sometimes, but only when it's chilly out.


It's cold in Southern California?


----------



## raott

bonscott87 said:


> By all means express that you want it, but this constant crying about it and getting mad it's not here when they said they aren't working on it is just plain funny to me.


You know what's even funnier, is people who get uptight about other people complaining.

Its pretty easy just to skip or ignore this thread as the lack of DLB doesn't affect you. For a feature you don't care about, you've spent an awful lot of time in this thread chastising others for complaining.


----------



## Flyrx7

bonscott87 said:


> And I'm not anti-DLB at all. I could care less if DLB comes or not. How does that make me anti-DLB? ...


OK. Semantics. Will call it ambivalent-DLB. Whatever.



bonscott87 said:


> I just find it funny that some people act like DirecTV kicked their cat or something by not having DLB in the DVR for crying out loud. It's pretty widely known for over 3 years now that the DirecTV DVRs don't have DLB. Either deal with it or leave to a provider that has it. By all means express that you want it, but this constant crying about it and getting mad it's not here when they said they aren't working on it is just plain funny to me. :eek2: ...


I also find it funny how the anti/ambivalent-DLB'ers also seem to get all worked up about how much people want DLB. If you don't like hearing all the pleading (in a thread predominately about wanting DLB) maybe it's time for you to move on as well... this thread is obviously not about you. :eek2:

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. This all goes back to what I said about trying to convince the 'other side' your own beliefs. You see it your way, I see it mine....but whatever, continue on with the posts...

Regards,
Frank

(I'll be civil now)


----------



## puffnstuff

Flyrx7 said:


> While this may be "DLBish" as MicroBeta coined, it is certainly not "Better Than", so that leads me to believe that the BTDLB feature is something else entirely, and not at all DLBish.
> 
> Now if D* could just finish off the DLB like it's supposed to be then I could care less of what's better. It seems like they are on the right track, and I do like the careful approach, but they need to give up on the "having to record 2 shows" in order to use the DLB function.
> 
> Still (im)patiently waiting.......


Also get rid of the saving pause points , if I wanted to pause it I would .


----------



## GrumpyBear

The Better than DLB and DLB wasn't going to happen was in a private chat, with no notes allowed and all quotes were unoffical, by a CTO that seemed to be a little aggitated by the entire DLB questioning. 

Sounds like nothing is cemented on the Subject, and the more people push the subject, the sooner something might happen. Sitting back and acting like sheep, and never voicing disapproval gets people no were.


----------



## bonscott87

raott said:


> You know what's even funnier, is people who get uptight about other people complaining.
> 
> Its pretty easy just to skip or ignore this thread as the lack of DLB doesn't affect you. For a feature you don't care about, you've spent an awful lot of time in this thread chastising others for complaining.


No problem. I drop by the thread only every couple months. See ya around Halloween.


----------



## Rich

bonscott87 said:


> No problem. I drop by the thread only every couple months.


Me too. And I would have ignored it today if I hadn't seen your post and read your posts leading up to it. Well written as always and on point, but nobody listens.

Amazing that this thread hasn't died by now, altho I see people exchanging thoughts on food now. Not too far off topic and more interesting than beating a dead horse named DLB.

Rich


----------



## James Long

:beatdeadhorse: or reach:


----------



## veryoldschool

GrumpyBear said:


> The Better than DLB and DLB wasn't going to happen was in a private chat, with no notes allowed and all quotes were unoffical, by a CTO that seemed to be a little aggitated by the entire DLB questioning.
> 
> Sounds like nothing is cemented on the Subject, and the more people push the subject, the sooner something might happen. Sitting back and acting like sheep, and never voicing disapproval gets people no were.


Having been in the same chat room, "As I rememeber it", when asked about DLB, the reply was "it's a dead issue".
Something better was coming.

Currently recording ONE show, and then bouncing between the 90 min live buffer and a recording, works.
While this may not be the "something better" mentioned, it does seem to be "better" than having only a 30 min buffer. YMMV


----------



## Que

I was not in the chat but what I read from Drew2k said "What Mr. Pontual said, verbatim: "DLB could be done, we have something better coming.".

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127704


----------



## raott

veryoldschool said:


> Having been in the same chat room, "As I rememeber it", when asked about DLB, the reply was "it's a dead issue".
> Something better was coming.
> 
> Currently recording ONE show, and then bouncing between the 90 min live buffer and a recording, works.
> While this may not be the "something better" mentioned, it does seem to be "better" than having only a 30 min buffer. YMMV


Even the lowly cable boxes (which have DLB) have a buffer that is larger than 30 minutes (IIRC it is an hour). It doesn't have to be an either or situation, there is no reason DLB's cannot exist with two 90 minute buffers.


----------



## veryoldschool

raott said:


> Even the lowly cable boxes (which have DLB) have a buffer that is larger than 30 minutes (IIRC it is an hour). It doesn't have to be an either or situation, there is no reason DLB's cannot exist with two 90 minute buffers.


This really falls under YMMV.

I tend to watch programs that are interesting enough so I don't "bounce".
If a program can't keep my attention, I simply "move on".

We're all "wired differently" and someone has made a good reason for why "they" use/want DLB, and the record one & buffer the other, seems to do this.


----------



## puffnstuff

veryoldschool said:


> This really falls under YMMV.
> 
> I tend to watch programs that are interesting enough so I don't "bounce".
> If a program can't keep my attention, I simply "move on".
> 
> We're all "wired differently" and someone has made a good reason for why "they" use/want DLB, and the record one & buffer the other, seems to do this.


I jump around on both channels , so recording 1 won't work for me , it takes to long to set up and delete all the stuff. As for the length I could care less .


----------



## puffnstuff

veryoldschool said:


> Having been in the same chat room, "As I rememeber it", when asked about DLB, the reply was "it's a dead issue".
> Something better was coming.
> 
> Currently recording ONE show, and then bouncing between the 90 min live buffer and a recording, works.
> While this may not be the "something better" mentioned, it does seem to be "better" than having only a 30 min buffer. YMMV


I never heard dead issue . it was "can be done" .


----------



## veryoldschool

puffnstuff said:


> I jump around on both channels , so recording 1 won't work for me , it takes to long to set up and delete all the stuff. As for the length I could care less .


[trying to understand] 
a one press to record, a "couple" of presses to setup "the toggle" and after, a press into the guide and "double dash", takes "too long"?

"pure blue sky": 
What if there was an interactive channel that you could watch more than two games on? Would this be "better than DLB"?


----------



## raott

veryoldschool said:


> [trying to understand]
> a one press to record, a "couple" of presses to setup "the toggle" and after, a press into the guide and "double dash", takes "too long"?
> 
> "pure blue sky":
> What if there was an interactive channel that you could watch more than two games on? Would this be "better than DLB"?


If the workaround works for you great, to many, it is not acceptable. The explanations why the workaround is a pain have been repeated over and over and over.


----------



## puffnstuff

veryoldschool said:


> [trying to understand]
> a one press to record, a "couple" of presses to setup "the toggle" and after, a press into the guide and "double dash", takes "too long"?
> 
> "pure blue sky":
> What if there was an interactive channel that you could watch more than two games on? Would this be "better than DLB"?


But what if I need to change the recorded channel , I have to set it all up again and then erase the first recording and so on everytime I want to switch that tuner , unacceptable since I would have 20 - 30 partial recordings to get rid of everyday. Also the interactive channel thing would not work I want to use my whole screen not half . Plus if I wanted to do that just use PIP on the TV .


----------



## veryoldschool

puffnstuff said:


> But what if I need to change the recorded channel , I have to set it all up again and then erase the first recording and so on everytime I want to switch that tuner , unacceptable since I would have 20 - 30 partial recordings to get rid of everyday. Also the interactive channel thing would not work I want to use my whole screen not half . Plus if I wanted to do that just use PIP on the TV .


As I posted, I was just trying to understand. 
I don't think I do now any better. 
I can't find 20-30 shows to watch, in any given day.
I guess it's best to "just leave this", since there has been only one example for DLB that anyone has ever given me that could make sense to me.

Good luck to all of you.


----------



## puffnstuff

veryoldschool said:


> As I posted, I was just trying to understand.
> I don't think I do now any better.
> I can't find 20-30 shows to watch, in any given day.
> I guess it's best to "just leave this", since there has been only one example for DLB that anyone has ever given me that could make sense to me.
> 
> Good luck to all of you.


Well , just because you can't find that many doesn't mean others don't , so don't just leave it , tell me how to get around erasing all of it ? Also I don't see what you don't understand , tell me so that I can answer you , I told you exactly why the workaround doesn't work for me but you don't understand , well I don't understand what you don't understand about .


----------



## RCY

James Long said:


> DLB is working fine on my receiver. I don't know what all the hub bub is about, bub.


True...

The whole discussion reminds me of the 30 second skip v. slip debate. Lots of HR2x owners (leasers?) explaining how absence of 30 second skip was better than having it, why it wasn't part of D*'s HR2x philosophy, would never be implemented, etc. Others arguing that it was a vital DVR function. Lots of debate ensues. Then, for whatever reason, 30 second skip comes in as a backdoor. Best of both worlds for D*. They keep the "fringe" happy, and the masses get to see all the commercials the providers want them to.

Maybe there's a way for D* to have their cake (showcases, pushed content to the masses) and eat it too. (DLB for the passionate minority) Enter "DLB" in a search to activate, anyone?


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> But what if I need to change the recorded channel , I have to set it all up again and then erase the first recording and so on everytime I want to switch that tuner , unacceptable since I would have 20 - 30 partial recordings to get rid of everyday. Also the interactive channel thing would not work I want to use my whole screen not half . Plus if I wanted to do that just use PIP on the TV .


You are correct, this is not possible at this time ..


----------



## veryoldschool

puffnstuff said:


> Well , just because you can't find that many doesn't mean others don't , so don't just leave it , tell me how to get around erasing all of it ? Also I don't see what you don't understand , tell me so that I can answer you , I told you exactly why the workaround doesn't work for me but you don't understand , well I don't understand what you don't understand about .


OK, cause I really "don't get it". [no slamming or anything since we all have a "right" to have it "our way"].
First I don't get the "20-30" recordings. The shortest program is 30 min, right? 
This would mean 10 to 15 hours of programs you would be recording, while watching others with the live buffer. This doesn't really seem possible, but I don't [again] want to start slamming.
So maybe the recordings are either:
1) not so many, or
2) you setup those that you "really" [or think you do] want to watch.
3) for those you're "not sure of", you use the live buffer to do your "bounces".
4) if you find one with your bounces that you like more than the recording, then "one press to record" sets that tuner.
5) going into the play list and finding the "other recording" and pressing dash twice, stops/deletes that recording, freeing up that tuner to go bouncing again with.

I can see how there are more button presses than "simply" toggling a DLB box, but since this does work, with practice, how many/much more effort would it take to "have it now"?


----------



## dennisj00

As an experiment, there were two football games on last night that I wanted to watch, so I recorded both. I know I should have padded them but how much 30, 60, 90 minutes each? I didn't just to experiment. Also you never know when some rain delay, breaking news or some other insert will add to the length of any program.

Well, both games ran beyond the recording. And I literally missed the end of both because the single buffer had flushed when I switched back to one of the games -- don't know why, it just wasn't there. (I theorize it was an upcoming recording that it didn't ask to change channels.)


With DLB that wouldn't have happened. . . or at least it would have asked if I wanted to change channels.

So the wonderful workaround cost me the end of two games.


----------



## veryoldschool

dennisj00 said:


> As an experiment, there were two football games on last night that I wanted to watch, so I recorded both. I know I should have padded them but how much 30, 60, 90 minutes each? I didn't just to experiment. Also you never know when some rain delay, breaking news or some other insert will add to the length of any program.
> 
> Well, both games ran beyond the recording. And I literally missed the end of both because the single buffer had flushed when I switched back to one of the games -- don't know why, it just wasn't there. (I theorize it was an upcoming recording that it didn't ask to change channels.)
> 
> With DLB that wouldn't have happened. . . or at least it would have asked if I wanted to change channels.
> 
> So the wonderful workaround cost me the end of two games.


So in this case, two DVRs is the only solution from DirecTV.


----------



## puffnstuff

veryoldschool said:


> OK, cause I really "don't get it". [no slamming or anything since we all have a "right" to have it "our way"].
> First I don't get the "20-30" recordings. The shortest program is 30 min, right?
> This would mean 10 to 15 hours of programs you would be recording, while watching others with the live buffer. This doesn't really seem possible, but I don't [again] want to start slamming.
> So maybe the recordings are either:
> 1) not so many, or
> 2) you setup those that you "really" [or think you do] want to watch.
> 3) for those you're "not sure of", you use the live buffer to do your "bounces".
> 4) if you find one with your bounces that you like more than the recording, then "one press to record" sets that tuner.
> 5) going into the play list and finding the "other recording" and pressing dash twice, stops/deletes that recording, freeing up that tuner to go bouncing again with.
> 
> I can see how there are more button presses than "simply" toggling a DLB box, but since the does work, with practice, how many/much more effort would it take to "have it now"?


Trust me . I know from your other post's that you don't slam anybody ( that doesn't deserve it ) thats why I actually answered yours and not some of the others . Also I hardly ever watch a full show so most of them would just be 7-12 minute recordings ( I watch TV for over 12 hours a day ) . One more thing the reason I post here is so the HR20 can be the best box out and right now this is the only part that is lacking . Heck , I really don't even need it with 3 HR's , a comcrap box and a PIP TV .


----------



## dennisj00

veryoldschool said:


> So in this case, two DVRs is the only solution from DirecTV.


And has already been discussed, two DVRs introduce a whole set of new problems not counting the additional $. That's not even close to a workaround!


----------



## 94SupraTT

dennisj00 said:


> As an experiment, there were two football games on last night that I wanted to watch, so I recorded both. I know I should have padded them but how much 30, 60, 90 minutes each? I didn't just to experiment. Also you never know when some rain delay, breaking news or some other insert will add to the length of any program.
> 
> Well, both games ran beyond the recording. And I literally missed the end of both because the single buffer had flushed when I switched back to one of the games -- don't know why, it just wasn't there. (I theorize it was an upcoming recording that it didn't ask to change channels.)
> 
> With DLB that wouldn't have happened. . . or at least it would have asked if I wanted to change channels.
> 
> So the wonderful workaround cost me the end of two games.


I have my Chicago Bears on a wishlist on my Tivo however I have 1hr added as padding automatically. Football games are rarely 3hrs like most are listed so I always add an hour and if I'm home and the game stops I stop the recording. Padding the games myself is the only option for me regardless of how many buffers I have because I know how mad I will be if I don't get the entire game.


----------



## AJerman

DLB (if I understand it correctly), is something that I REALLY want. And I want automatic, not requiring a workaround. If I have a tuner free, and I change the channel, start recording the channel before, at least for a few seconds, in case the change was accidental.

I have a bad habit of playing with my remote as I watch TV, and I've had a couple of times now where I was watching a show that I had paused for a significant period of time (maybe 30 minutes or so), then I accidentally hit the remote and changed the channel, and when I immediately flipped back, I had lost my entire buffer, and half and hour of the show. There's no feeling worse than really getting into a show and then losing half of it because you were stupid.

I know, I know, don't play with the remote, but still, it would be a nice convenience feature.


----------



## dennisj00

AJerman said:


> I know, I know, don't play with the remote, but still, it would be a nice convenience feature.


It's not a convenience, it's an un-apologestic necessity!


----------



## GrumpyBear

I sure enjoyed being able to use DLB yesterday for the kickoff of College Football season. I could almost live without DLB until football season, and then BAM, it is a must have feature.


----------



## kw2957

GrumpyBear said:


> I sure enjoyed being able to use DLB yesterday for the kickoff of College Football season. I could almost live without DLB until football season, and then BAM, it is a must have feature.


Hopefully the current workaround will soon be outdated. I'm really hoping for DLB in the coming months, but that's probably wishful thinking. :grin:


----------



## bhumps

GrumpyBear said:


> I could almost live without DLB until football season, and then BAM, it is a must have feature.


You said it! First game of the season for me (Illini-Mizzou) last night. Set it up to record on my HR20 before heading out. Even remembered to add some padding at the end (+30 mins.).

Get home, turn the game on. By the time I get to the 4th qtr I'm about 45 mins. behind realtime. Big 4th quarter with tons of scoring, Illinois is making a comeback and with about 5 mins. left....end of recording.

You all know how this ends; exit the recording (which was recording on the background tuner) and I miss the end of the game.

With any of the other DVR's on the market I'd have been able to swap to the background tuner, rewind, and watch the end.

I've been with DTV for 12 years. I've convinced countless friends and family members to do the same.

And now, I've finally had enough. I used DLB for a variety of reasons *every time* I turned on the TV. I've waited patiently for a long time now; first for DLB, then for "something better". Today, I started researching the alternatives. I'm done with DirectTV.

I don't know where I'll settle and I'm sure there will be things I'll miss from DTV but DLB was at the heart of how I (and my wife) watched TV. I'm just so dissappointed that no one there seems to understand how basic and important this feature is to so many people.

Wish me luck (as do I for those of you who are sticking it out).


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *161 8.21%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 309 15.76%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 140 7.14% *
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1274 64.97%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 77 3.93%*
Voters: *1961*

Replies 2,695 
Views 93,518

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## Lord Vader

While many of us may not cancel service altogether, I wonder how many have canceled certain sports packages because of the lack of DLB. Truthfully, having DLB made certain sports packages more worthwhile. Over the last 12 months when I got my HR20-700s, I canceled NASCAR HotPass, ESPN Game Plan, and ESPN Full Court not because of the cost, which I could handle, but because I watched those packages in a unique way that utilized DLB literally all the time. The workarounds just don't cut it because of the way they're scheduled in the guide--too much of a PITA to straighten out the often 6 to 8 hour time allotted those recordings.

So, the lack of DLB for this customer has cost DirecTV a few hundred dollars per year. Of course, they're a big company, and I'm sure they really don't care that they lost that amount.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Lord Vader said:


> While many of us may not cancel service altogether, I wonder how many have canceled certain sports packages because of the lack of DLB. Truthfully, having DLB made certain sports packages more worthwhile. Over the last 12 months when I got my HR20-700s, I canceled NASCAR HotPass, ESPN Game Plan, and ESPN Full Court not because of the cost, which I could handle, but because I watched those packages in a unique way that utilized DLB literally all the time. The workarounds just don't cut it because of the way they're scheduled in the guide--too much of a PITA to straighten out the often 6 to 8 hour time allotted those recordings.
> 
> So, the lack of DLB for this customer has cost DirecTV a few hundred dollars per year. Of course, they're a big company, and I'm sure they really don't care that they lost that amount.


I think you have hit the right nail. DLB wont force people to leave in Droves, but it will have an effect on the Expensive extras, that they count on making money on.
Neighbor went ballistic yesterday, as he was all happy that he just upgraded his HR10, and then found out he had no DLB, granted he didn't know what DLB was, he just knew he used it. I sent him here to read the work around, and HE wasn't happy, he just canceled his NFLTicket(which sucks as I was hoping I could catch a Seahawk game or 2)and his ESPN gameplan. 
I think as more and more people realize what they don't have anymore, during HR upgrades, fewer will be spending the money on the extra packages, as DLB is just to important for most Sports people. Granted 10% will think its just fine without DLB.


----------



## MX727

I cancelled Game Plan and Sunday Ticket this fall because I now know that I will have to call Dish tomorrow..

The good news is, I should have MPEG-4 and DLB by the end of the week.


----------



## inkahauts

dennisj00 said:


> And has already been discussed, two DVRs introduce a whole set of new problems not counting the additional $. That's not even close to a workaround!


It is if you have two big tv's sitting next to each other! 



dennisj00 said:


> It's not a convenience, it's an un-apologestic necessity!


Thats just a tad over the top, don't ya think?



MX727 said:


> I cancelled Game Plan and Sunday Ticket this fall because I now know that I will have to call Dish tomorrow..
> 
> The good news is, I should have MPEG-4 and DLB by the end of the week.


Have a great time with Dish! I hope it works out well for you!

By the way, isn't that kind of funny? You are leaving one company for a feature and that will keep you from having the other feature you want that caused you to miss the first feature in the first place? Wait, Why are you leaving again?


----------



## Lord Vader

I've got two HR20-700s in my living room. If I want to simulate DLB, I have to use my Harmony remote to select the activity to watch HR20-700 #2. Sounds simple, right? Well, the problem lies with my other equipment. My A/V has to switch inputs and my HDTV has to do the same. It's the latter that takes time. There's the standard delay when switching inputs on such an advanced TV, as it has to detect the signal. This makes it not even close to having true DLB.


----------



## puffnstuff

Lord Vader said:


> I've got two HR20-700s in my living room. If I want to simulate DLB, I have to use my Harmony remote to select the activity to watch HR20-700 #2. Sounds simple, right? Well, the problem lies with my other equipment. My A/V has to switch inputs and my HDTV has to do the same. It's the latter that takes time. There's the standard delay when switching inputs on such an advanced TV, as it has to detect the signal. This makes it not even close to having true DLB.


Did you come over my house an write those last 2 post , you must have , because they fit me to a T . I to got rid of all of my sports packs , and the same with my tv and av switch .


----------



## MX727

inkahauts said:


> Have a great time with Dish! I hope it works out well for you!
> 
> By the way, isn't that kind of funny? You are leaving one company for a feature and that will keep you from having the other feature you want that caused you to miss the first feature in the first place? Wait, Why are you leaving again?


I've been with them before. Came to DirecTV because of TiVo and the marketing campaign at the time.

Not losing anything. Don't really care about pro ball anymore. Signed up a few years ago and every year that I've tried to cancel, DirecTV always makes a great deal, which meant the package was virtually free.

My dropping of Sunday Ticket is a loss for DirecTV, not me.


----------



## Lord Vader

puffnstuff said:


> Did you come over my house an write those last 2 post , you must have , because they fit me to a T . I to got rid of all of my sports packs , and the same with my tv and av switch .


I don't have an AV or TV switch. Those two devices, like other folks' devices of the same I'd guess, simply change inputs when one goes from a DVR to DVD to CD player, etc. My Onkyo AV switches very quickly, but my Samsung HDTV takes its time. It's not really the TV's fault, either, because most HDTVs I've seen have the same issue. Whether it be powering up or changing inputs, it takes time for the HDMI handshake to occur.

BTW, I say "inputs" for lack of better terminology. I have only one HDMI cable going into my HDTV from my Onkyo AV. Everything into my TV goes through what's called "HMDI-1." However, whenever I change inputs on my AV, even from one HR20 to another, it takes time for the TV to go through the input handshake.


----------



## Jhon69

puffnstuff said:


> Did you come over my house an write those last 2 post , you must have , because they fit me to a T . I to got rid of all of my sports packs , and the same with my tv and av switch .


This unfortunately is the only recourse besides going to another provider that will show DirecTV they made one giant boo boo by not adding DLB.Companies that"go by the numbers" and don't know how to read put themselves in a situation that they never should have been in in the first place.If I was a major stockholder that would be my first question. :nono2:


----------



## GrumpyBear

Now that the NFL Ticket is MPEG4, and requires a HR2x machine. I wonder how the overall sales of NFL Ticket and ESPN Gameplan, is going to be. All those people who have had, DLB and are just now finding out they don't have it anymore, could be interesting to see if there is a Drop off.
I know of 4 people that have dropped, NFL Ticket as they found out this college weekend there HR21's didn't have what they thought was a Basic Feature.


----------



## luckydob

DLB is a basic feature...D* just doesn't like basic features apparently. But they do like media share or whatever they call it this week.


----------



## inkahauts

GrumpyBear said:


> Now that the NFL Ticket is MPEG4, and requires a HR2x machine. I wonder how the overall sales of NFL Ticket and ESPN Gameplan, is going to be. All those people who have had, DLB and are just now finding out they don't have it anymore, could be interesting to see if there is a Drop off.
> I know of 4 people that have dropped, NFL Ticket as they found out this college weekend there HR21's didn't have what they thought was a Basic Feature.


I'd say overall it will have absolutely no effect whatsoever... For as many people that drop it, more will sign up for it... people will find being able to get the games more important than DLB... It may make you watch the game differently, but at least you can still watch it.. Die hard fans will not walk away..


----------



## MX727

Wow, I think we just got DLB. Fingers crossed. :joy:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1774220#post1774220

They ran me to my absolute limit. My Dish system was supposed to be installed yesterday, but they couldn't get to me. I'm going to cancel that install and wait for my new TiVo unit. :goodjob:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

MX727 said:


> Wow, I think we just got DLB. Fingers crossed. :joy:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1774220#post1774220
> 
> They ran me to my absolute limit. My Dish system was supposed to be installed yesterday, but they couldn't get to me. I'm going to cancel that install and wait for my new TiVo unit. :goodjob:


Well, I guess we all know what the "better then DLB" is now. I think we can safely close this thread.


----------



## dave29

theratpatrol said:


> Well, I guess we all know what the "better then DLB" is now. I think we can safely close this thread.


i hope this isnt what is "better than dual live buffers" :nono2:


----------



## NickD

dave29 said:


> i hope this isnt what is "better than dual live buffers" :nono2:


As much as I want DLB and I would most likely get a Tivo box or two, I hope this is not what was meant by something better. If this is the case then D is stating that the beloved HRxx that was supposed to be an upgrade is inferior to the Tivo platform and I thought the HRxx was supposed to be the flagship be all, do all box of D.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

dave29 said:


> i hope this isnt what is "better than dual live buffers" :nono2:





NickD said:


> As much as I want DLB and I would most likely get a Tivo box or two, I hope this is not what was meant by something better. If this is the case then D is stating that the beloved HRxx that was supposed to be an upgrade is inferior to the Tivo platform and I thought the HRxx was supposed to be the flagship be all, do all box of D.


Oh come on guys, I was just joking around, thats what all those smiley faces are for. Can't a guy have fun anymore, geez.  :grin: 

I too want to see DLB on the HR's.


----------



## Tom Robertson

MX727 said:


> Wow, I think we just got DLB. Fingers crossed. :joy:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1774220#post1774220
> 
> They ran me to my absolute limit. My Dish system was supposed to be installed yesterday, but they couldn't get to me. I'm going to cancel that install and wait for my new TiVo unit. :goodjob:


Well... DLB is likely coming on the new units but that won't be for a year at least.

This does go to show that one NEVER knows what will or might happen even if one _knows_.


----------



## Doug Brott

theratpatrol said:


> Well, I guess we all know what the "better then DLB" is now. I think we can safely close this thread.


maybe .. maybe not


----------



## MX727

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... DLB is likely coming on the new units but that won't be for a year at least.
> 
> This does go to show that one NEVER knows what will or might happen even if one _knows_.


That's OK, it means there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I can live with that.


----------



## Flyrx7

In my "logical" mind, this can really only mean one thing;

The HR2* series DVR will have DLB at some point. After all this time and effort developing their "flagship" DVR, Mpeg4 no less, without any competing D* DVR offerings, like the Tivo boxes of the past, meant they can do whatever they wanted. The only recourse if you weren't happy was to go somewhere else.
Now with the Tivo units to be available I'm pretty sure that they'll still rather sell their own instead. They will have to make it as, or more appealing now.
That, in my mind, means DLB.

Still, I for one don't want to have to wait another year for DLB, but if my only option is to get the Tivo unit then that is what I'll do.


----------



## GrumpyBear

inkahauts said:


> I'd say overall it will have absolutely no effect whatsoever... For as many people that drop it, more will sign up for it... people will find being able to get the games more important than DLB... It may make you watch the game differently, but at least you can still watch it.. Die hard fans will not walk away..


I still say the numbers would be interesting to see. I keep reading posts here and even diehard Friends give up on it. Not the Price, but lack of function for a $250 package. Some will, I see more and more not. Week one is a great example. 13 games on Sunday, watch one, record one, watch one, Record one, making sure you block out the tickers, so you don't try to jump to a game and see whats going on an lose the game buffer you are watching. Now if you live someplace like I do, were you are stuck with Charger games instead of Seahawk gmes, $250 for just your teams season, might be worth it to you.

Looks like Next year, I may make the jump over, as DLB will finally Return to DirectTV. So it does look like 3 Polls, my have played a factor. Looks like Next year, Que can show his Face.


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> maybe .. maybe not


Doug................LOL There are times when you shouldn't tease LOL

Just as long as some brilliant marketing type doesnt see this as a`la carte feature purchasing.

If you want DLB its $.50
If you want Tivo Software its $5.00

etc...


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... DLB is likely coming on the new units but that won't be for a year at least.
> 
> This does go to show that one NEVER knows what will or might happen even if one _knows_.


Does the 'Shadow' know?


----------



## ATARI

BTW, color me happy!!

DLBs in a year (or less).

Sweet!!


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> Does the 'Shadow' know?


well not just the Shadow, but how about all of those who have been saying MOVE ON, DLB will NEVER happen. Heck alot of those were posted in just the last week and a half, no less.


----------



## dennisj00

I'd certainly pay 5.50 a month for DLB and / or Tivo. . . was paying more for that before my T-60 died.

This is great news. . . haven't read all (currently 17 pages) of the other thread, but where do I pre-order one?

And it will be GREAT if the units are included in the CE program. Where do I sign up for a couple?!!

Now you can just unlock DLB on the HR2x series!!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

ATARI said:


> Does the 'Shadow' know?





ATARI said:


> BTW, color me happy!!
> 
> DLBs in a year (or less).
> 
> Sweet!!





GrumpyBear said:


> well not just the Shadow, but how about all of those who have been saying MOVE ON, DLB will NEVER happen. Heck alot of those were posted in just the last week and a half, no less.


Well I'll tell you the Shadow was caught unaware this morning, he sure was.


----------



## ATARI

I wonder if Earl knew?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I make it a point never to speak for my friend Earl without his permission, but I can tell you that this came as a bolt out of the blue (and not a bolt-james, a regular bolt)


----------



## kanderna

I intend no ill-will toward anyone, but I love reading responses from the nay-sayers when stuff this stuff happens. Not with a "I told you so" attitude, but just pure amusement in the "doh!" responses. 

So have we convinced ourselves that this is the "something better?" That would be a mild disappointment, but I'd be over it quickly.


----------



## puffnstuff

I loved my Tivo , but now I like the HR better . So please Directv don't let this be the something better .


----------



## Doug Brott

kanderna said:


> So have we convinced ourselves that this is the "something better?" That would be a mild disappointment, but I'd be over it quickly.


no ..


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> I loved my Tivo , but now I like the HR better . So please Directv don't let this be the something better .


I'll assume you just left off the "except for no DLB"


----------



## n3ntj

Flyrx7 said:


> The HR2* series DVR will have DLB at some point.


I hope you are right. I don't want to have to wait another year (2nd half of 2009) to get my DLB feature on an HD DVR.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> I'll assume you just left off the "except for no DLB"


You would be right . The HR has come a long way and to me only not having DLB kept me from loving it . I just don't see any connection with the announcement and DLB for me .


----------



## rawilson

There is nothing better than Tivo...God's gift to modern technology


----------



## puffnstuff

rawilson said:


> There is nothing better than Tivo...God's gift to modern technology


3 little letters UTV


----------



## luckydob

puffnstuff said:


> You would be right . The HR has come a long way and to me only not having DLB kept me from loving it . I just don't see any connection with the announcement and DLB for me .


It still has a long way to go...DLB is one of them. Reliable recording is another... How long have we had the HR series of DVR? It's sad really when you think about what still needs to be fixed...this far into it. :nono2:


----------



## Que

GrumpyBear said:


> Looks like Next year, Que can show his Face.


I just hope it's the real deal.... I can't wait!


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> I just hope it's the real deal.... I can't wait!


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


>


Alright, alright!!

I think your are going a little too far, toying with us with your, "I know something you don't" attitude.
Either spill the beans or quit antagonizing us! Seriously.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Alright, alright!!
> 
> I think your are going a little too far, toying with us with your, "I know something you don't" attitude.
> Either spill the beans or quit antagonizing us! Seriously.


Sorry .. nothing to share .. you will know things as I do. But it does seem that Que will be able to show his face again, does it not?


----------



## rahlquist

Doug Brott said:


> Sorry .. nothing to share .. you will know things as I do. But it does seem that Que will be able to show his face again, does it not?


Who is Que?

As for sharing, you let us play with you toys but you wont tell us the secret to your magic finishing move aka whats better than DLB LOL


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Makes me wonder if all the delay and silence was due to negotiations in the works.

Maybe now we can get "something better". The door is wide open. :grin:

A box with the best of both worlds. What more can you ask for (only as is applies to TV...not life :sure .

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rahlquist said:


> Who is Que?
> 
> As for sharing, you let us play with you toys but you wont tell us the secret to your magic finishing move aka whats better than DLB LOL


http://www.dbstalk.com/member.php?u=20205


----------



## paulman182

The trouble with predictions is that if you say "never," you'll never be proved right no matter what, because "it" has the entire future in which to happen.

And, although a lot of people wanted TiVo back, very few of them predicted it.

I've never had DLB and don't think I would use it (to stay on topic!)


----------



## tthunder38

puffnstuff said:


> 3 little letters UTV


Amen to that!!


----------



## Ryan

I thought of this the other day while watching a fooball game. The game I was watching went to commercial, and I thought about flipping over to another game. The whole workaround to DLB wasn't worth the hassle...especially since my DVR is very full and I didn;t want to lose anything by adding superfluous recordings. I ended up just leaving the commercials on...which I'm sure broadcasters would prefer. 

Is that paranoid? Maybe. But then yesterday I read how Microsoft has 'accidentally broken' third-party automatic commercial skip in an update for Vista Media Server, and seems to have no interest in fixing it. (Engadget and Gizmodo had the links, I think.) So I began to wonder again...who is calling the shots on these technology improvements?


----------



## spartanstew

the lack of DLB is not a conspiracy.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ryan said:


> I thought of this the other day while watching a fooball game. The game I was watching went to commercial, and I thought about flipping over to another game. The whole workaround to DLB wasn't worth the hassle...especially since my DVR is very full and I didn;t want to lose anything by adding superfluous recordings. I ended up just leaving the commercials on...which I'm sure broadcasters would prefer.
> 
> Is that paranoid? Maybe. But then yesterday I read how Microsoft has 'accidentally broken' third-party automatic commercial skip in an update for Vista Media Server, and seems to have no interest in fixing it. (Engadget and Gizmodo had the links, I think.) So I began to wonder again...who is calling the shots on these technology improvements?


I don't see how a content provider could complain any more about DLB than they could about Fast Forward .. or for that matter, the Refrigerator and the bathroom ..

As for who is calling the shots on these technology improvements .. Many things can be negotiated. CNN, for example, has negotiated their position in the DIRECTV lineup. A more logical place at this point would be in the 300's with the rest of the news channels, but there they sit @ 202 & 204. DIRECTV has been granted a right (from the Copyright holders) to deliver content to us (the public). As such, the content providers and DIRECTV will have to come to terms with how to make that happen such that both DIRECTV and the content providers are satisfied.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Ryan said:


> I thought of this the other day while watching a fooball game. The game I was watching went to commercial, and I thought about flipping over to another game. The whole workaround to DLB wasn't worth the hassle...especially since my DVR is very full and I didn;t want to lose anything by adding superfluous recordings. I ended up just leaving the commercials on...which I'm sure broadcasters would prefer.
> 
> Is that paranoid? Maybe. But then yesterday I read how Microsoft has 'accidentally broken' third-party automatic commercial skip in an update for Vista Media Server, and seems to have no interest in fixing it. (Engadget and Gizmodo had the links, I think.) So I began to wonder again...who is calling the shots on these technology improvements?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=629658&postcount=1

Here is a list of other DVR's with DLB. Just about every other HD-DVR had DLB.

Not a conspiracy.

Mike


----------



## jheda

I never thoght Id say this, but Bolt James, WHERE ARE YOU????

Kudos to DTV for always continuing to work to improve the product. DLB with a TIVOHD will be wonderful. For me, DLB in the HR2x..even better. Personally, I like the hr2x better for many reasons we have outlined, but i would move to the tivo base if DLB was offered only on it...ie tonight, Giants, yanks, redsox, etc...

In any event, Que, this ones for you!!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

jheda said:


> I never thoght Id say this, but Bolt James, WHERE ARE YOU????


I do believe Mr. James hasn't been around much since he realized that DLB was actually something that he wanted ..


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> I do believe Mr. James hasn't been around much since he realized that DLB was actually something that he wanted ..


:icon_lol: !rolling !rolling !rolling :jump3: :jump3: :jump3: :jump3: :icon_lol:


----------



## rudeney

I have to admit that I really didn’t think I had much use for DLB (and voted accordingly in this poll), but I have since discovered that I do I want it. I’ve instances where an accidental channel change caused me aggravation and having DLB’s would have solved that. Probably my biggest issue with not having DLB is the fact that changing channels while watching the buffer in the past causes it to get dumped, I’d prefer it keep the buffer, or at the very least, warn me (like my old UTV did). I guess the whole problem would be solved if I’d keep my clumsy hands away from the remote, though.


----------



## Ryan

MicroBeta said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=629658&postcount=1
> 
> Here is a list of other DVR's with DLB. Just about every other HD-DVR had DLB.
> 
> Not a conspiracy.
> 
> Mike


Not every other DVR was developed by a company owned by a content owner, producer, provider and broadcaster.

There are a number of Comcast Sportsnets on satellite, but that doesn't mean that Comcast doesn't withhold CSN Philly...

TiVo basically denied their units had a 30 second skip for quite a while. Directv offers 30 second _slip_ by default.

And for DLB being comparable to Fast Forward...it's not when you're watching something live. I definitely see a lack of DLB as an impedence to jumping over to other programming during commercials (while maintaining the original programming). Whether or not the decision not to implement DLB was made for that reason is unkown (at least by most of us here  ). Of course I know the workarounds, but they're clunky and potentially require a good deal of free space for long HD programs--the very programs for which advertisers often pay top dollar.

Why is it so hard to consider that content owners and/or broadcasters could pull these type of strings? They certainly did with the PPV time limits. And we were bascially told: it's coming, there's nothing DirecTV can do, get over it.

My thoughts on that line are reenforced by this MS Vista Media Center issue, which seems to be a subtle API change--one MS was aware of during beta--that MS has shown no interest in acknowledging or repairing.


----------



## Doug Brott

Ryan said:


> Why is it so hard to consider that content owners and/or broadcasters could pull these type of strings? They certainly did with the PPV time limits. And we were bascially told: it's coming, there's nothing DirecTV can do, get over it.


I don't believe I said that .. In fact, I gave you an example of where something like that had already occurred. DIRECTV and other distributors are not lying down here .. consider this like the kid who says he'll take his ball and go home if he doesn't get his way .. might be fine if you're OK with playing with the half-flat faded ball but could be a different story if you'd rather play the the band new shiny ball.

Yes, lack of DLB could be added to the negotiating table .. I just don't think it will.


----------



## Ryan

Doug Brott said:


> Yes, lack of DLB could be added to the negotiating table .. I just don't think it will.


So you're telling me there's a chance...










_okay, I'm done now..._ strike that (Is there a strike through tag?)



> might be fine if you're OK with playing with the half-flat faded ball but could be a different story if you'd rather play the the band new shiny ball.


Whose DVR is which ball? And now there's a new (version of an old) ball on the way...


----------



## Doug Brott

Ryan said:


> So you're telling me there's a chance...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _okay, I'm done now..._ strike that (Is there a strike through tag?)


Yes, no I mean [STRIKE]yes[/STRIKE] .. 

Just use *[STRIKE]your text here[/STRIKE]
*



Ryan said:


> Whose DVR is which ball? And now there's a new (version of an old) ball on the way...


Ah, good point, so this following comment is for me  .. sorry

:backtotop


----------



## GrumpyBear

Deadskins vs Giant, South Carolina vs Vandy(go Vandy) and the RNC.
Sure glad DLB is working tonight.


----------



## James Long

Tonight I could use a third live buffer.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm sure glad I have DVRs so I can record things that I don't really need to see live...


----------



## Drew2k

I've been holed up at work for and out of the loop since Tuesday, and I see these amazing headlines! DIRECTV made deals without me! I'm shocked! 

I'm happy for all the TiVo fans, but from the little I've seen (and I haven't even gotten close to any of the recent/new TiVo-is-back threads), those TiVo fans will be paying more, so you're welcome to it! 

Even without DLB, I'm extremely happy with my HR2x DVRs, and still clink to some hope that there will indeed be DLB one day on the HR2x DVRs. Why now more than ever? Because TiVo is back with DIRECTV, and that was considered something we'd never see again ... If DIRECTV can change their mind about TiVo, maybe they'll change their mind that DLB "could be done" and they'll actually go all out to deliver it!

Hope springs eternal!


----------



## HDinMA

Q: I posted in another thread that one of the most annoying aspects of buffering "LIVE" time is when one accidentally changes the channel and the buffer is lost.

Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid this? 

I think a reasonable solution would be to ask for a confirmation to change channels after, say, 15 minutes of buffering. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDinMA said:


> Q: I posted in another thread that one of the most annoying aspects of buffering "LIVE" time is when one accidentally changes the channel and the buffer is lost.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid this?
> 
> I think a reasonable solution would be to ask for a confirmation to change channels after, say, 15 minutes of buffering.
> 
> Thoughts?


Yes. If you really want the buffer--record it. even if you are watching live. True on all models of DVRs.


----------



## HDinMA

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes. If you really want the buffer--record it. even if you are watching live. True on all models of DVRs.


That's simple, practical advice, but I don't care for cluttering the DVR or having it eat things that I want saved there.

And that would also get around the DLB issue too, correct? Just record both and swap back and forth? Even TiVo required one of the shows be recorded to enable DLB, I think.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HDinMA said:


> That's simple, practical advice, but I don't care for cluttering the DVR or having it eat things that I want saved there.
> 
> And that would also get around the DLB issue too, correct? Just record both and swap back and forth? Even TiVo required one of the shows be recorded to enable DLB, I think.


Yes, that is the trade off. how important is the item you're buffering vs. the things you already have.  I normally don't watch anything important live so I typically don't record the background stuff that is "just on". 

But if I get called away from something that has attracted my interest, I'll pause and record.

As for DLB on the TiVo, no, nothing needed to be recorded.

And I haven't found the most recent workaround to work as I'd like.

Cheers,
Tom

is the number 2166 necessary and proper?


----------



## Doug Brott

HDinMA said:


> Q: I posted in another thread that one of the most annoying aspects of buffering "LIVE" time is when one accidentally changes the channel and the buffer is lost.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is a way to avoid this?
> 
> I think a reasonable solution would be to ask for a confirmation to change channels after, say, 15 minutes of buffering.
> 
> Thoughts?





HDinMA said:


> That's simple, practical advice, but I don't care for cluttering the DVR or having it eat things that I want saved there.
> 
> And that would also get around the DLB issue too, correct? Just record both and swap back and forth? Even TiVo required one of the shows be recorded to enable DLB, I think.


There are multiple ways to do things .. what would you like the most?


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> There are multiple ways to do things .. what would you like the most?


What I would like most is DLB like I had with my TiVo, but that's never gonna hap...

Oh, wait, never mind.


----------



## sunking

HDinMA said:


> That's simple, practical advice, but I don't care for cluttering the DVR or having it eat things that I want saved there.
> 
> And that would also get around the DLB issue too, correct? Just record both and swap back and forth? Even TiVo required one of the shows be recorded to enable DLB, I think.


Tivo didn't require anything to be recorded. And at times you did screw up and lose a buffer by going surf crazy. For me, the fact that I'm DLB instead of record means that I understand this pitfall and accept it. If i really cared about losing something then I record. For the most part, when I screw up and lose a half inning of Yankees or someone I wanted to see on AI I just curse at myself for being stupid and get over it. Honestly though, once you get used to it you hardly ever do this. I've done it maybe a dozen times in over 2 years. Just don't lose control of the remote! That's probably the biggest reason to record.


----------



## GrumpyBear

HDinMA said:


> That's simple, practical advice, but I don't care for cluttering the DVR or having it eat things that I want saved there.
> 
> And that would also get around the DLB issue too, correct? Just record both and swap back and forth? Even TiVo required one of the shows be recorded to enable DLB, I think.


Are you saying if you have a buffer as small as 3 seconds, and you go an switch the channel on the hr2x, it will switch the channel? It doesn't ask if you want to switch to live mode to change the channel 1st?


----------



## dennisj00

GrumpyBear said:


> Are you saying if you have a buffer as small as 3 seconds, and you go an switch the channel on the hr2x, it will switch the channel? It doesn't ask if you want to switch to live mode to change the channel 1st?


Sure it does. And my Sat T-60 Tivo with DLB didn't ask either. But with DLB you didn't lose everything.

The one thing I would like is an option to disable 'Active' or have it prompt or something. That button is too close to the 'Pause' and has caused more lost buffers for me.


----------



## GrumpyBear

dennisj00 said:


> Sure it does. And my Sat T-60 Tivo with DLB didn't ask either. But with DLB you didn't lose everything.
> 
> The one thing I would like is an option to disable 'Active' or have it prompt or something. That button is too close to the 'Pause' and has caused more lost buffers for me.


I thought I had seen somebody post that before, but thought they were just wrong.
Whats the sense in having a buffer that can be so easily wiped out?!?!?!?!
I think adding DLB will need to the feature of asking you before you change a channel, or somebody else comes in a changes the channel, by accident. 
The Veiw live and pause buttons on the ViP are spread out. I really enjoy the fact that if I am not live, I am watching in the buffer, I am asked with a onscreen message I can see through, doesn't shrink what I am watching, telling me I not live and saying yes will force me live and goes right to the station I am switching too. Wife and kids see that, and swap over to the other tuner if I am out of the room, and I do the same for them. I find it really hard to believe the buffer can be so easily wiped out.


----------



## JerseyBoy

I never made use of the DLB on the hr10. Probably because other than watching a football game or the news I never watch live TV. Other than one issue I don't really care if they add this feature or not. The one issue is performance. Being a software engineer who has worked on mpeg recording applications I can see that processing multiple streams to the dual buffers could chew up cpu utilization. One of the complaints i had about the HR10 was that it took forever to page thru the guide. So if adding DLB to the HR2x also significantly impacts the performance of the user interface then I hope they also add an option to disable it.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well I can only speak for the ViP622, and it has both DLB and much faster menu and onscreen commands, than 1 HR20 and 2 HR21's we have played with. And what is up with the crazy noise the HR system makes, anytime you active and you already are, or push a button, that doesn't match to the screen its on, it makes that silly bong noise.


----------



## JerseyBoy

GrumpyBear said:


> Well I can only speak for the ViP622, and it has both DLB and much faster menu and onscreen commands, than 1 HR20 and 2 HR21's we have played with. And what is up with the crazy noise the HR system makes, anytime you active and you already are, or push a button, that doesn't match to the screen its on, it makes that silly bong noise.


I set the option for sound effects to off to get rid of the silly bong noise.


----------



## GrumpyBear

JerseyBoy said:


> I set the option for sound effects to off to get rid of the silly bong noise.


Thanks,
I will look it up and tell my Brother-in-Law how to do it.
His youngest LOVES to push buttons on the remote.


----------



## RACJ2

DLB came in handy with the Motorola DVR with TW cable. Several times I forgot about setting something up to record. Since the DVR was always on, I sometimes had one of the tuners on the channel I wanted to record. So I could swap to that tuner, press record and capture the whole program. 

Also, I like to have two football or hockey games on. If I swap to the other tuner and missed a touchdown or goal, I could rewind back and watch it. I know you can record both programs to do this, but it was easier when you didn't have to.


----------



## JerseyBoy

Thinking about my earlier comment on the performance impact of DLB on the user interface I realized that it should be no different than when recording 2 shows at once. I just tried this and I did not notice any slow down in the user interface. So I guess it was not DLB that made the hr10 so slow.


----------



## GrumpyBear

RACJ2 said:


> DLB came in handy with the Motorola DVR with TW cable. Several times I forgot about setting something up to record. Since the DVR was always on, I sometimes had one of the tuners on the channel I wanted to record. So I could swap to that tuner, press record and capture the whole program.
> 
> Also, I like to have two football or hockey games on. If I swap to the other tuner and missed a touchdown or goal, I could rewind back and watch it. I know you can record both programs to do this, but it was easier when you didn't have to.


Only problem with Recording 1 football game, and watching the other game, is having to cover up the ticker on the game you are watching. Otherwise you know as the games are over. I enjoy being able to swap over, during a commercial break or when something flashs as an update, and swap over.


----------



## Que

ATARI said:


> What I would like most is DLB like I had with my TiVo, but that's never gonna hap...
> 
> Oh, wait, never mind.


Don't count those Tivos yet.... There not out. After everything D* has done the last few years, I going to wait on my happy dance until it's in my hands. Then with about 4 hours of playtime. /happy dance!


----------



## spartanstew

RACJ2 said:


> Also, I like to have two football or hockey games on. If I swap to the other tuner and missed a touchdown or goal, I could rewind back and watch it. I know you can record both programs to do this, but it was easier when you didn't have to.


I have Sunday Ticket this year for the first time and yesterday, there were 2 early games I really wanted to see (Dophins/Jets, Lions/Falcons), so I recorded both games. 15 minutes into the games I started watching them: I started watching one from the list, then started watching the other from the list. Throughout both games, I would watch a series or so on one game, then hit the "previous" botton on the remote and it would take me right back to where I left off on the other game. Rinse and repeat. I thought it worked great.

I guess I don't understand how DLB's would have made this easier. The only difference is that I had to hit the "previous" button, while with DLB, you'd have to hit the "down arrow". Other than that, no difference.


----------



## cadet502

spartanstew said:


> I have Sunday Ticket this year for the first time and yesterday, there were 2 early games I really wanted to see (Dophins/Jets, Lions/Falcons), so I recorded both games. 15 minutes into the games I started watching them: I started watching one from the list, then started watching the other from the list. Throughout both games, I would watch a series or so on one game, then hit the "previous" botton on the remote and it would take me right back to where I left off on the other game. Rinse and repeat. I thought it worked great.
> 
> I guess I don't understand how DLB's would have made this easier. The only difference is that I had to hit the "previous" button, while with DLB, you'd have to hit the "down arrow". Other than that, no difference.


That's the same process I've been using to watch two hotpass channels all year. Works just fine for two channels that you know you won't switch off of.

Where DLB would help would be if you want to key on one game, and use the other tuner to cruise between 3 or 4. With the current workaround, you can record one game, but if you change the second tuner, PREV becomes useless until you pick the recording out of the LIST again.

The workaround is ok in some cases, seriously not in others.

.


----------



## Doug Brott

spartanstew said:


> I have Sunday Ticket this year for the first time and yesterday, there were 2 early games I really wanted to see (Dophins/Jets, Lions/Falcons), so I recorded both games. 15 minutes into the games I started watching them: I started watching one from the list, then started watching the other from the list. Throughout both games, I would watch a series or so on one game, then hit the "previous" botton on the remote and it would take me right back to where I left off on the other game. Rinse and repeat. I thought it worked great.
> 
> I guess I don't understand how DLB's would have made this easier. The only difference is that I had to hit the "previous" button, while with DLB, you'd have to hit the "down arrow". Other than that, no difference.


Hmmmm .. I'm gonna let this post stay here .. BUT .. what you have described is not yet in a national release of the software ..


----------



## Flyrx7

spartanstew said:


> I guess I don't understand how DLB's would have made this easier. The only difference is that I had to hit the "previous" button, while with DLB, you'd have to hit the "down arrow". Other than that, no difference.


You don't mention the total number of button presses to get to that point, or mention the fact that you have to go and delete both games from your playlist after you are done. And of course the steps necesary to pad the play times of both games. Not to mention if you want to check out a 3rd game or more, and the steps you have to do to buffer a different game.
But, other than that, no difference.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## raott

spartanstew said:


> I have Sunday Ticket this year for the first time and yesterday, there were 2 early games I really wanted to see (Dophins/Jets, Lions/Falcons), so I recorded both games. 15 minutes into the games I started watching them: I started watching one from the list, then started watching the other from the list. Throughout both games, I would watch a series or so on one game, then hit the "previous" botton on the remote and it would take me right back to where I left off on the other game. Rinse and repeat. I thought it worked great.
> 
> I guess I don't understand how DLB's would have made this easier. The only difference is that I had to hit the "previous" button, while with DLB, you'd have to hit the "down arrow". Other than that, no difference.


You have to hit record on both games. Want to go to another game - you have to stop record and then tell it whether to stop and delete or to keep. If your show is a 30 minute show (ie ESPNEWS) - you gotta hit record again. Your playlist is then a mess and then needs to be cleaned out.

So saying the only difference is hitting the "previous" button glosses over what you had to do to get there and also glosses over what you have to do if you want to change the two shows being buffered.


----------



## ATARI

raott said:


> ...the two shows being buffered.


Of course you meant "recorded" as the HR can only "buffer" one.


----------



## spartanstew

Doug Brott said:


> Hmmmm .. I'm gonna let this post stay here .. BUT .. what you have described is not yet in a national release of the software ..


Sorry Doug, didn't realize that.

Also, I see some of the other points people have brought up. Thanks.


----------



## dennisj00

And you have to have padded the ending of each game with 30-60 minutes or risk being hung out to dry. . .

And have to have plenty of space for 2 4-hour HD shows.

And stay on ONLY those two games . . . or go through the same padding / record / delete . . . 

By that time you've lost something! (Sanity or end of a game or something)

Just give us DLB -- better than SOON!


----------



## GrumpyBear

Even with the Recording options, what about all the times you just want to check something out for just a minute or 2. You have no idea whats on the other tuner, so now you have to record, the one show, switch over to just catch a news or weather update, and then you are done, and ready to watch what the other tuner is now recording. Do you stop recording, and have a bunch of 10min recordings, you have to delete, or continue recording a show, you had no interest in recording, until the end? Either way, you are still stuck with a bunch of 10-20 minute recordings. When it would be so much easier to pause one show, jump over catch the news/weather or whatever, and then go back, to the 1st tuner and continue from the pause point.


----------



## Flyrx7

With the lack of good content on TV anymore, I find myself surfing ALOT!
On the HR10 I'd find one decent show and anchor it. Then using the other buffer I'd go cruising, knowing that if I couldn't find anything better I could always go back to the anchored buffer. Sometimes I'd find something better, if only slightly, then I'd anchor that one, switch buffers, and then try to find something even better, and so on and so on. 

As it is now, there is no way I'm going to record everything in this manner just to buffer it, all the while when I'm just trying to find some good content. I can't imagine the house cleaning on all those 3-7 minute recordings, as well as all the record button presses, not to mention having to switch to the playlist over and over.

Another benefit of the DLB, of course, is that if you decided, after the fact, to record both shows, you could, and it would include what was on both buffers, not just the one we have now.

With the HR10 I became real proficient with DLB. It actually made watching live TV bearable, maybe even fun. 

Anyhow, that's how I used DLB mostly. That and actually watching two programs at the same time.

Now, if there was actually anything good on anymore I wouldn't need to hop all over the place looking for something!

Regards,
Frank


----------



## GrumpyBear

Flyrx7 said:


> With the lack of good content on TV anymore, I find myself surfing ALOT!
> On the HR10 I'd find one decent show and anchor it. Then using the other buffer I'd go cruising, knowing that if I couldn't find anything better I could always go back to the anchored buffer. Sometimes I'd find something better, if only slightly, then I'd anchor that one, switch buffers, and then try to find something even better, and so on and so on.
> 
> As it is now, there is no way I'm going to record everything in this manner just to buffer it, all the while when I'm just trying to find some good content. I can't imagine the house cleaning on all those 3-7 minute recordings, as well as all the record button presses, not to mention having to switch to the playlist over and over.
> 
> Another benefit of the DLB, of course, is that if you decided, after the fact, to record both shows, you could, and it would include what was on both buffers, not just the one we have now.
> 
> With the HR10 I became real proficient with DLB. It actually made watching live TV bearable, maybe even fun.
> 
> Anyhow, that's how I used DLB mostly. That and actually watching two programs at the same time.
> 
> Now, if there was actually anything good on anymore I wouldn't need to hop all over the place looking for something!
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Thats a great example as well. How in the world can you channel surf during a commercial break to find something that might be more entertaining.? Start recording, while you surf and then change your mind? Channel surfing is a National Pastime.


----------



## dennisj00

And you know? Football should not be played on a baseball diamond.

And any good DVR with TWO Tuners should have DLB!

It's not working. . .


----------



## tthunder38

dennisj00 said:


> And you know? Football should not be played on a baseball diamond.
> 
> And any good DVR with TWO Tuners should have DLB!
> 
> It's not working. . .


Two tuners with PIP.....then you watch both games on the same screen and just swap between the two. One screen (the small one) shows the offensive huddle while a play is happening on the other (the big one)....watch the play and hit the swap button and watch the play on the second game on the big screen while the huddle is happening on game one via the small screen. Its not hard to do or understand....and I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to activate on the existing HR2X's we currently are using


----------



## ATARI

tthunder38 said:


> Two tuners with PIP.....then you watch both games on the same screen and just swap between the two. One screen (the small one) shows the offensive huddle while a play is happening on the other (the big one)....watch the play and hit the swap button and watch the play on the second game on the big screen while the huddle is happening on game one via the small screen. Its not hard to do or understand....and I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to activate on the existing HR2X's we currently are using


That would definately be "better than {just} DLB".


----------



## tthunder38

ATARI said:


> That would definately be "better than {just} DLB".


And THAT is what irrates me the most.....its ten year old technology that D* NEVER should have left out of the current receivers.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tthunder38 said:


> Two tuners with PIP.....then you watch both games on the same screen and just swap between the two. One screen (the small one) shows the offensive huddle while a play is happening on the other (the big one)....watch the play and hit the swap button and watch the play on the second game on the big screen while the huddle is happening on game one via the small screen. Its not hard to do or understand....and I wouldn't imagine it would be difficult to activate on the existing HR2X's we currently are using


Or give us side by side PIP like E* has, then you wouldn't have to swap the pictures, you could just watch it.



tthunder38 said:


> And THAT is what irrates me the most.....its ten year old technology that D* NEVER should have left out of the current receivers.


Exactly!


----------



## jaxfan

well, I must have said something wrong in my last post. It was deleted. So I will try to say it in a more "political way".

I stand by what I said in post 2495, the current HR2x's will not have DLB. You will have to upgrade to a new receiver to get that feature. That "new receiver" will be the next DirecTivo receiver. They will have DLB and I will bet the house on that (since I just got back from Vegas).:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks .. just a reminder, this is the *"What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?"* thread.

If you think your post is missing, it is because I have moved it to the *"DIRECTV and Tivo to Launch new HD DVR in 2H 2009"* thread which is the appropriate location for discussing the new TiVo ..


----------



## Sandy

I was forced to switch from my Direct Tivos to get HD. I hate not having DLB. I thought I would adjust, I didn't. I thought the workaround would be adequate, it isn't. I want real, easy to use DLB. The lack of this one feature frustrates me so much as I watch TV.


----------



## Que

Sandy said:


> I was forced to switch from my Direct Tivos to get HD. I hate not having DLB. I thought I would adjust, I didn't. I thought the workaround would be adequate, it isn't. I want real, easy to use DLB. The lack of this one feature frustrates me so much as I watch TV.


Can you go back to the HR10? I had/have in note for a free upgrade when I bought this HR10 knowing that the HR20 was just about to come out. As you can tell I wait a little while.... I'm happy with the HR10 as I only watch OTA HD but, would love MORE HD channels. I just have to wait a little longer...

...but you can still have OTA HD and Tivo just not the new MPEG4 HD channels. So if you only watch OTA HD stick with the HR10.


----------



## Sandy

I didn't ever have a HR10. I went from a DVR40. I held out for a l o n g time.


----------



## Richierich

I have 2 HR10-250s which I use to record OTA HD programs and then I use the HR21-700s to record everything else.


----------



## Que

Sandy said:


> I didn't ever have a HR10. I went from a DVR40. I held out for a l o n g time.


If you want one I'm sure you can find it. It might take a little bit of looking around.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> If you want one I'm sure you can find it. It might take a little bit of looking around.


Well I have never had DLB or TIVO.That being said I bought a HR10-250 on EBay(Always check the Receiver ID and Access Card ID with DirecTV before you buy).
It's also $20. for a new access card.I don't care for sports.To have Dual Live Buffers is like you can set up a channel in advance or in the case of sports stay on top of 2 games at once.I can see why DirecTV subscribers who have had this feature would miss this feature very, very much.:sure:

So my vote is Yes! this feature is needed for the DirecTV subscriber to have total control of both tuners.The addition of Dual Live Buffers should receive Top Priority from DirecTV.


----------



## dennisj00

Jhon69 said:


> Well I have never had DLB or TIVO.That being said I bought a HR10-250 on EBay(Always check the Receiver ID and Access Card ID with DirecTV before you buy).
> It's also $20. for a new access card.I don't care for sports.To have Dual Live Buffers is like you can set up a channel in advance or in the case of sports stay on top of 2 games at once.I can see why DirecTV subscribers who have had this feature would miss this feature very, very much.:sure:
> 
> So my vote is Yes! this feature is needed for the DirecTV subscriber to have total control of both tuners.The addition of Dual Live Buffers should receive Top Priority from DirecTV.


Well said! I've been saying this since I've had an HR2x for a year now!


----------



## Jhon69

dennisj00 said:


> Well said! I've been saying this since I've had an HR2x for a year now!


Thanks don't know how much good it will do, but at least now I know where the admiration for DLB comes from.You know if everyone that wanted DLB would not have downgraded to the HRXX's this thread might not even exist.Because with companies numbers speak louder than words.:sure:


----------



## NickD

Right now is a prime example of how not having DLB is really missed. I want to watch hurricane coverage on one tuner and surf on the other tuner, I can't do it. I don't want to record every show that I may want to watch just to be able to flip between tuners.


----------



## Que

Jhon69 said:


> Well I have never had DLB or TIVO.That being said I bought a HR10-250 on EBay(Always check the Receiver ID and Access Card ID with DirecTV before you buy).
> It's also $20. for a new access card.I don't care for sports.To have Dual Live Buffers is like you can set up a channel in advance or in the case of sports stay on top of 2 games at once.I can see why DirecTV subscribers who have had this feature would miss this feature very, very much.:sure:
> 
> So my vote is Yes! this feature is needed for the DirecTV subscriber to have total control of both tuners.The addition of Dual Live Buffers should receive Top Priority from DirecTV.


Only sport I watch is Hockey and this year more NASCAR. I mostly have one tuner on CNN and surf on the other one. Wife watches soaps on one, surf on the other one.


----------



## ATARI

NickD said:


> Right now is a prime example of how not having DLB is really missed. I want to watch hurricane coverage on one tuner and surf on the other tuner, I can't do it. I don't want to record every show that I may want to watch just to be able to flip between tuners.


I would have liked to have had 362 in a PIP while surfing the main screen.

If the new receivers from D* next year (which I will not mention by name) have PIP and DLB, I will gladly pay a premium $$ for them.


----------



## DblD_Indy

So Glad to see that this battle is still at least getting light of day, even though it seems DTV has given up on this feature.

And Yes, I two would be willing to pay a few xtra $$$ to be able to flip flop on my channel surfing.


----------



## inkahauts

DblD_Indy said:


> So Glad to see that this battle is still at least getting light of day, even though it seems DTV has given up on this feature.
> 
> And Yes, I two would be willing to pay a few xtra $$$ to be able to flip flop on my channel surfing.


Additional features should never cost more, ever! Please don't suggest this, some fool might think its a good idea at corporate.

And how do you know Directv has given up on it? They've never actually said anything about it in the press, in any direction... and all we heard is something is coming from someone important and in the know... I think the thing that speaks volumes is that they have been adding additional little things that are paving the way towards DLB.... That speaks more than anything to me...


----------



## Que

inkahauts said:


> I think the thing that speaks volumes is that they have been adding additional little things that are paving the way towards DLB.... That speaks more than anything to me...


They still need to get the recorder to RECORD right. Just looking at the 1st page shows, people are still have problems with the HR2x. Then move to DLB. It still looks like they are focus on options that the user will never use.


----------



## GrumpyBear

inkahauts said:


> Additional features should never cost more, ever! Please don't suggest this, some fool might think its a good idea at corporate.
> 
> And how do you know Directv has given up on it? They've never actually said anything about it in the press, in any direction... and all we heard is something is coming from someone important and in the know... I think the thing that speaks volumes is that they have been adding additional little things that are paving the way towards DLB.... That speaks more than anything to me...


I agree that DLB shouldn't be a Cost item. One thing it does show though,is how desperate somepeople are for DLB.


----------



## luckydob

Is D* just ignoring this until the Tivo unit comes out now?


----------



## GrumpyBear

D* has been ignoring this for sometime now. Granted we now know what is better than DLB.


----------



## inkahauts

GrumpyBear said:


> D* has been ignoring this for sometime now. Granted we now know what is better than DLB.


Uh, care to explain how you know they are ignoring it? Everything I see points to them working on it like crazy...

In the last few days, someone has a theory on why some people have blank recordings, and after understanding that particular behavior, it might be that they are an offshoot of them working on getting us DLB...

So if I have any blank recordings in the next year I'll blame all the people that want DLB!!!!


----------



## Flyrx7

You have a link to that theory?


----------



## RCY

inkahauts said:


> Uh, care to explain how you know they are ignoring it? Everything I see points to them working on it like crazy...
> 
> In the last few days, someone has a theory on why some people have blank recordings, and after understanding that particular behavior, it might be that they are an offshoot of them working on getting us DLB...
> 
> So if I have any blank recordings in the next year I'll blame all the people that want DLB!!!!


If that's really true, maybe someone should stop by the blank/grey recording thread and tell those folks what's going on...I'm assuming you're joking.


----------



## luckydob

Even though the Tivo unit is great and all...I still want DLB now. Not 1 to 2 years from now on the Tivo unit.


----------



## keith_benedict

I don't trust Directv to make any changes to the software without completely screwing something else up. So I'm going to change my previous vote in favor of adding DLB to not being in favor of it. My reasoning? I went from having a reliable DVR with a few quirks to having a completely unreliable DVR that gives me blank recordings 15% of the time.


----------



## Flyrx7

At this point, DLB and a reliable D* DVR both appear to be made of unobtainium.


----------



## Starchy77

Flyrx7 said:


> At this point, DLB and a reliable D* DVR both appear to be made of unobtainium.


My DVR's have been pretty reliable - now just waiting for the DLB!


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> At this point, DLB and a reliable D* DVR both appear to be made of unobtainium.





Starchy77 said:


> My DVR's have been pretty reliable - now just waiting for the DLB!


I have to agree that my DVR has been very reliable .. The only recordings that I've missed recently was one where I neglected to actually set the series link .. which, of course is to be expected :grin:

In fact, in all honesty, I cannot remember the last time that my DVR got it wrong. I remember more times where I was thinking that it might have gotten it wrong but upon further investigation, it turns out that some last minute changes resulted in the HR2x getting it right despite the change ..

I'm not trying to belittle others troubles, but for me my 2 main HR2x systems (heavily used) and my 2 lightly used HR2x systems have all been spot on. Even had one use GameSearch and actually find an NFL game that I had inadvertently set on a blacked out channel .. I was still able to watch the game later even though I got it wrong.


----------



## keith_benedict

Doug Brott said:


> I have to agree that my DVR has been very reliable .. The only recordings that I've missed recently was one where I neglected to actually set the series link .. which, of course is to be expected :grin:
> 
> In fact, in all honesty, I cannot remember the last time that my DVR got it wrong. I remember more times where I was thinking that it might have gotten it wrong but upon further investigation, it turns out that some last minute changes resulted in the HR2x getting it right despite the change ..
> 
> I'm not trying to belittle others troubles, but for me my 2 main HR2x systems (heavily used) and my 2 lightly used HR2x systems have all been spot on. Even had one use GameSearch and actually find an NFL game that I had inadvertently set on a blacked out channel .. I was still able to watch the game later even though I got it wrong.


Those of us who are getting black/gray screen recordings envy you. I have to watch every program that I want to record start now because I'm afraid the DVR just won't record. Rather, I'm afraid that what it records will be 50 minutes of black screen followed by the last 10 minutes of what should have been recording.

I'm on HR20 number 2 now, and I'm still having problems. Black/gray screen recordings are certainly not the fault of the operator.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *174 8.55%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 320 15.72%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 141 6.93% *
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1320 64.83%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 81 3.98%*
Voters: *2036*

Replies 2,822	
Views 102,205

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## rawilson

inkahauts said:


> Additional features should never cost more, ever! Please don't suggest this, some fool might think its a good idea at corporate.
> 
> And how do you know Directv has given up on it? They've never actually said anything about it in the press, in any direction... and all we heard is something is coming from someone important and in the know... I think the thing that speaks volumes is that they have been adding additional little things that are paving the way towards DLB.... That speaks more than anything to me...


If it were truly an "additional feature", I'd gladly pay for it. It is NOT and "additional feature" for me since the HR20 was sold to me as an "upgrade" from my R10. In my book, "upgrades" do not remove such a popular and useful feature.


----------



## rw99

DLB integration on the old DirecTivo was seamless, as was dependability on recording. Clearly DirecTV doesn't know how to build a good alternative DVR. To me, a DVR without DLB is substandard... but we all take what we get, don't we?

I love the DirecTivo DLB feature, especially for sports and for "impulse" recordings: you turn on your TV to see something (on either tuner) already in progress that you'd like to catch... as long as you're less than 30 min into the program you can go ahead and easily record the program in its entirety.

I know I'll really miss my DTivo once the HD upgrade in my family room is complete.


----------



## MX727

Well, I've had the HR22 for the last three weeks and it is a decent machine. I've become used to the guide and I do like the extra HD channels.

However, I'm happier still that I kept my HR10 running next to it. My main focus of DLB necessity was sports. Tonight, I found another shortcoming in the HR2x series implementation of dual tuners.

My wife was recording Ghost Whisperer and she started watching it from the list about 30 minutes into it so she could skip the commercials. Towards the end, she saw promos for the show that follows it, X List, I believe. Well with the way the buffer works on this box, she couldn't just roll into the next show, because when Ghost Whisperer ended she found out it wasn't on the primary tuner. That meant she would've missed about 10 minutes of the new show.

Fortunately, the HR10 was also recording GW, so she could switch to that box and use the buffer to watch that show.

I just will never believe that the D* developers really knew all of the ways that DLB was and is used. Whether people knew it or not, most, at one time or another have benefited from the DLB functionality of the SD and HD TiVo units.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Something's comin' and I hope it will be better.

Mike


----------



## MX727

MicroBeta said:


> Something's comin' and I hope it will be better.
> 
> Mike


Just remember, that light at the end of the tunnel just might be an oncoming train. :grin:


----------



## MrDad0330

Ive posted on this before and I'll do it again. I actually like my HR20 and my new HR22. I am very comfortable with both now and to be honest, these units have operational characteristics in some areas better than my old Tivos. With that said, the ONLY thing I miss is DLB's. IF "D" ever wanted to be able to claim they had the best DVR on the market, they could IF the added dlb's. I don't for the life of me understand why they don't get this. 
A DVR is a great invention and I dont know how I ever lived without one but I strongly feel dlb's are a major part of the FUN that dvr's bring to us. I just don't understand "D" in this area. Look at all of these posts asking for dlb's. I even feel they could draw more away from Dish with a DVR with dlb's. 
All in all, I love "D", I was one of their customers before they even reached one million of us. I love my HR's, the HD channles, all that they bring to my enjoyment but they so miss the boat from having a good DVR vs. having a "dream machine"


----------



## n3ntj

Ditto.. I like the HR-2x series, but the only thing really lacking and the only thing that D* REALLY dropped the ball on when they designed this thing and added features over time via software updates is indeed DLB.

We keep hearing that "something better' than DLB is coming..well, I am still waiting. When is this "something better" going to shine itself? I am getting tired or waiting.


----------



## rw99

"something better" for me would be functional DLB with extended length buffer. I do like the 90 minute buffer on my HR22 better than the 30 minute buffer of the old DirecTivo box...


----------



## inkahauts

RCY said:


> If that's really true, maybe someone should stop by the blank/grey recording thread and tell those folks what's going on...I'm assuming you're joking.


Wasn't joking....


----------



## inkahauts

rawilson said:


> If it were truly an "additional feature", I'd gladly pay for it. It is NOT and "additional feature" for me since the HR20 was sold to me as an "upgrade" from my R10. In my book, "upgrades" do not remove such a popular and useful feature.


In the world of Electronics, an upgrade generally means more features, but not always all the ones that were there before...

A perfect example of something that way to many people unfortunately seem to think is an upgrade... MP3 and other compression formats for music that have come after CD's... They do not sound nearly as good... and records had even better sound quality than CD's, in general...

CD's could sound a lot better than they do too, but too few engineers care to make music sound great anymore... Hopefully Directv will be like the few that do, and continue to bring us improvements, including DLB... which I think is coming.....


----------



## Flyrx7

inkahauts said:


> In the world of Electronics, an upgrade generally means more features, but not always all the ones that were there before...
> .....


Hmmm. OK.... seems like a reach just to make an argument, but I suppose it could apply.



inkahauts said:


> ....... Hopefully Directv will be like the few that do, and continue to bring us improvements, including DLB... which I think is coming.....


Coming from you, that seems hopeful indeed......

Don't get me wrong.....but methinks you're softening up just a bit. Now all we need is for Bon and Bolt to admit that "it's not all that bad" too.

It's ok...I'm hoping that pretty soon we can contemplate something better than DLB, ..... just as soon as we have DLB to start with! Then we'll have all the time to in the world to speculate....just might have to read a book instead 

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Jhon69

rw99 said:


> "something better" for me would be functional DLB with extended length buffer. I do like the 90 minute buffer on my HR22 better than the 30 minute buffer of the old DirecTivo box...


That's what my R15-500 would do once you press pause the live buffer could expand up to four hours with it's single live buffer.


----------



## inkahauts

Flyrx7 said:


> Coming from you, that seems hopeful indeed......
> 
> Don't get me wrong.....but methinks you're softening up just a bit. Now all we need is for Bon and Bolt to admit that "it's not all that bad" too.
> 
> It's ok...I'm hoping that pretty soon we can contemplate something better than DLB, ..... just as soon as we have DLB to start with! Then we'll have all the time to in the world to speculate....just might have to read a book instead
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I think you have me confused with someone else... I don't think its as big a deal as people make it out to be, it being there or it missing, but I also think its coming, and always have....


----------



## bonscott87

Flyrx7 said:


> Don't get me wrong.....but methinks you're softening up just a bit. Now all we need is for Bon and Bolt to admit that "it's not all that bad" too.


Eh? I don't think I've posted in this thread in a couple months. I hope DLB comes, I really do. I've never said anything different. I personally just don't need it. Is it wrong to not need DLB? I don't think so. Like I've said, hopefully DLB gets in there somehow. If not on the current platform then the next one.


----------



## RCY

inkahauts said:


> Wasn't joking....


I was afraid you'd say that.

Maybe one of our "insiders" could update us on the progress being made on the grey/black/blank recordings?


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> Something's comin' and I hope it will be better.
> 
> Mike


How soon? ..and do you really think it will be better?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Que said:


> How soon? ..and do you really think it will be better?


I have no idea how soon or what it is but I'm hoping it's better. 

Mike


----------



## Richierich

DLB is COMING!!! It will be on the NEW DIRECTIVO DVR!!! Can't wait to get my hands on one of these puppies!!!


----------



## apace

I would definitely like to see it, but I would like to see all the other bugs worked out first.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> DLB is COMING!!! It will be on the NEW DIRECTIVO DVR!!! Can't wait to get my hands on one of these puppies!!!


That's ways off. It may be a year before we see anything.

I'm hopeful that we'll see something before then. 

Mike


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> How soon? ..and do you really think it will be better?


The only thing I could imagine the dual live buffers being better is to have 2 90 minute live buffers(30 minutes are not enough) that if you pause them they would expand to up to 4 hours(like the R15 single live buffer) and be able to switch with the down arrow.

But if DirecTV waits until the DirecTivo comes out they need not worry about it.All who want DLB will go with the DirecTivo.


----------



## m4p

MicroBeta said:


> That's ways off. It may be a year before we see anything.
> 
> I'm hopeful that we'll see something before then.
> 
> Mike


I agree. I would definitely like to see DLB on the HR20. I don't want to have to upgrade my equipment to be able to have DLB. I don't know the mechanics of it, but it seems to me that they've made a lot of progress with the HR20, so how hard could it be to implement DLB?


----------



## rawilson

If DLB not implemented by the time my contract is up (09/09), I'm gone.


----------



## luckydob

I wouldn't hold my breath...D* effectively punted the DLB ball to Tivo. Now we wait longer. Meanwhile, we still don't know what is "better than DLB" that was promised.


----------



## NickD

rawilson said:


> If DLB not implemented by the time my contract is up (09/09), I'm gone.


Most likely we will be saying goodbye to you. I could be wrong, but look at how long these boxes have been out and we still don't have DLB.


----------



## kanderna

NickD said:


> Most likely we will be saying goodbye to you. I could be wrong, but look at how long these boxes have been out and we still don't have DLB.


That must mean we're getting closer, right?:lol:


----------



## spartanstew

rawilson said:


> If DLB not implemented by the time my contract is up (09/09), I'm gone.


Wow.

I wouldn't mind having DLB, but would never give up a provider because of it. Besides, the workarounds for it works great. I'm watching the Monday Night Football game and the Philly/LA game right now. I just hit the previous button to go from one to the other and it starts right where I left off. No need to hit pause or play or anything else. Recording both and then starting them from the list is in some ways better than DLB.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

spartanstew said:


> Wow.
> 
> I wouldn't mind having DLB, but would never give up a provider because of it. Besides, the workarounds for it works great. I'm watching the Monday Night Football game and the Philly/LA game right now. I just hit the previous button to go from one to the other and it starts right where I left off. No need to hit pause or play or anything else. Recording both and then starting them from the list is in some ways better than DLB.


But just imagine if you had side by side PIP, you could have actually watched both games at the same time. I still vote for PIP as being better. But thats just me.


----------



## spartanstew

That's true and I used to do that on my last display since I had 2 DVR's hooked up to it. I still have the duel DVR's, but my current HDTV doesn't have PIP. It is something I'd much rather have then DLB or MRV (since I already distribute my signal) or just about anything else.


----------



## Richierich

rawilson said:


> If DLB not implemented by the time my contract is up (09/09), I'm gone.


It's coming next year around September 09 and it is called the MPEG-4 Directivo with all of the Features & Functions of Tivo plus the Platform of Directv so it is going to be AWESOME with DLB!!!

Can't wait!!!

Hope they learned their lessons from the HRXX experience and get this one right!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

rawilson said:


> If DLB not implemented by the time my contract is up (09/09), I'm gone.


Speaking only for myself, there is no one feature that decides which service I use.

As much as I like/want DLB, there is so much more to consider.

I guess we all want what we want. 

Mike


----------



## tthunder38

theratpatrol said:


> But just imagine if you had side by side PIP, you could have actually watched both games at the same time. I still vote for PIP as being better. But thats just me.


Thank you Rat!! Most people don't look at it that way. You really need PIP built in with DLB


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tthunder38 said:


> Thank you Rat!! Most people don't look at it that way. You really need PIP built in with DLB


Of course, anything I can do to help.


----------



## onetimeonly00

Just got the HR22 last week, upgraded from my DirecTivo and was very disappointed when I realized that DLB was not included. I use the workaround, but like a previous poster said there are more uses for it than simply toggling between two shows. Impulse recordings, watching a program that followed one you recorded, etc. 

The workaround does not work in all of these circumstances....not to mention the fact that my wife hates the HR22. We'll live with it as we are not in a position financially to pay for an upgrade to the Tivo HDDVR next year. If we can get it as part of an extended contract great, otherwise I'm stuck with what I've got for a while.

I'd be pretty happy with the HR22 if DLB's got added, but it's still choppy with the FFW, something the Tivo never had a problem with.


----------



## Doug Brott

onetimeonly00 said:


> I'd be pretty happy with the HR22 if DLB's got added, but it's still choppy with the FFW, something the Tivo never had a problem with.


This is a side-effect of the MPEG4 protocol .. Although I don't really notice it that much


----------



## spartanstew

onetimeonly00 said:


> I'd be pretty happy with the HR22 if DLB's got added, but it's still choppy with the FFW, something the Tivo never had a problem with.


Often people compare things from the HD DVR's (HR2X's) to the SD D*Tivo's. That's apples to oranges.


----------



## GrumpyBear

This is too FUNNY. I am away for months comeback to check things out and whats on the Front page still!??!?!?!!?!?!?!!?? This missing feature option.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> This is too FUNNY. I am away for months comeback to check things out and whats on the Front page still!??!?!?!!?!?!?!!?? This missing feature option.


It was on page 4 or 5 for a while


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well,
I wont bump to bump it myself. I must have just gotten lucky then.


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> It was on page 4 or 5 for a while


Was that during a "cooling off" week? :lol:


----------



## Drew2k

richierich said:


> It's coming next year around September 09 and it is called the MPEG-4 Directivo with all of the Features & Functions of Tivo plus the Platform of Directv so it is going to be AWESOME with DLB!!!
> 
> Can't wait!!!
> 
> Hope they learned their lessons from the HRXX experience and get this one right!!!


Only half-hour buffers? No thank you. Guides that cover the entire screen? No thank you. No way to review searches, the To Do List, manage Prioritizer entries while still watching live TV? No PIP? No thank you. I'd take PIP with a single 90-minute buffer over two half-hour buffers any day ...


----------



## Brennok

Drew2k said:


> Only half-hour buffers? No thank you. Guides that cover the entire screen? No thank you. No way to review searches, the To Do List, manage Prioritizer entries while still watching live TV? No PIP? No thank you. I'd take PIP with a single 90-minute buffer over two half-hour buffers any day ...


Glad they plan to offer both then. Everything you don't want, I do.

I am curious about what you mean by no way to review searches though.


----------



## NickD

Brennok said:


> Glad they plan to offer both then. Everything you don't want, I do.
> 
> I am curious about what you mean by no way to review searches though.


I think he is referring to when you go to search it allows you to use a previous search that you did. Tivo does not have that if I remember correctly.


----------



## Drew2k

Brennok said:


> Glad they plan to offer both then. Everything you don't want, I do.
> 
> I am curious about what you mean by no way to review searches though.





NickD said:


> I think he is referring to when you go to search it allows you to use a previous search that you did. Tivo does not have that if I remember correctly.


We're getting off-topic here, but with TiVo, you're either watching video or you're not... If you want to get to the To Do List, or look at your Prioritizer, or look at any searches, you have to stop watching video to go into the menus. With DIRECTV, I can continue to watch video while "surfing" the menus, something I can even do on my lowly cable DVR.

Now to keep this on-topic, I want DLB, but not two paltry 30-minute buffers like TiVo has. I want two big, super-sized, 90-minute buffers. The current 90-minute buffer has been great for me, because I can't tell you how many times I've turned on the TV to catch a program, find it interesting, and decide to record it so I could watcch from the beginning. Two 90-minute-buffers? Bring it!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> We're getting off-topic here, but with TiVo, you're either watching video or you're not... If you want to get to the To Do List, or look at your Prioritizer, or look at any searches, you have to stop watching video to go into the menus. With DIRECTV, I can continue to watch video while "surfing" the menus, something I can even do on my lowly cable DVR.
> 
> Now to keep this on-topic, I want DLB, but not two paltry 30-minute buffers like TiVo has. I want two big, super-sized, 90-minute buffers. The current 90-minute buffer has been great for me, because I can't tell you how many times I've turned on the TV to catch a program, find it interesting, and decide to record it so I could watcch from the beginning. Two 90-minute-buffers? Bring it!


Oh Yeah! 

Call me spoiled but I've come to love and rely on the 90 minute buffer.

It's the perfect size. I've even backed up, knowing what was on in the previous hour, and recorded that show because it was in the buffer.

DLB should keep the 90 minute buffers. Hard drives are pretty cheap these days so space should not be a problem.

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

Except when the 90 minute buffer is EMPTY when you turn the HR2x on!

There should be plenty of space in the 'system' space for 2-90 minute buffers if they can download 10 PPVs there, ready and waiting!

And everyone is making SO many assumptions about what the new DirecTIVO will do and won't do!

Just give us DLB with the down arrow! And MRV! (and neuter the Active button!)


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> Just give us DLB with the down arrow!


Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


Seems to me that "prev" could have multiple meanings - many times it tunes to the previous channel. On the DTivo, "live tv" toggles between buffers as well as down arrow. Not familiar with the HR2x remote, is there a "live tv" button?

In short, I don't care what button they use as long as there is true DLB. YMMV.


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


Something besides prev . Prev should only be for the prev channel just like it used to be .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RCY said:


> Seems to me that "prev" could have multiple meanings - many times it tunes to the previous channel. On the DTivo, "live tv" toggles between buffers as well as down arrow. Not familiar with the HR2x remote, is there a "live tv" button?
> 
> In short, I don't care what button they use as long as there is true DLB. YMMV.


No Live TV button.

I would prefer {Down Arrow} myself. It doesn't do anything now...I think...:scratchin



Mike


----------



## speedcouch

Drew2k said:


> The current 90-minute buffer has been great for me, because I can't tell you how many times I've turned on the TV to catch a program, find it interesting, and decide to record it so I could watcch from the beginning.


IF the stupid screensaver coming on still didn't zero out my 90-minute buffer about 75% of time! I still come home from work to find the screensaver on my HR20 and _nothing_ in the buffer at all.

When I got the HR20 in May 2007, I was thinking how convenient it would be to have an entire movie in the buffer (since most of them are only 90 minutes long these days anyway). But, in reality, I think I've only been able to rewind the entire buffer to see something less than 5 times since I got the thing. Ever since the February 08 "upgrade," the screensaver zeros out my buffer most of the time, so makes this function useless IMHO...

Give me my two live 30-minute buffers on my HR10-250 any day! I find toggling between two channels/programs on there much more useful.

Cheryl


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


Subliminal hint....


----------



## dennisj00

Doug Brott said:


> Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


I'm late with an answer but I agree, the {PREV} button already has a few different meanings - depending on whether it was a channel or a recording.

For DLB, the Down Arrow or the UP. . .I don't care, just a unique button on the remote to switch between buffers / tuners.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

No, I pulled the active button out of my remote.



dennisj00 said:


> Except when the 90 minute buffer is EMPTY when you turn the HR2x on!
> 
> There should be plenty of space in the 'system' space for 2-90 minute buffers if they can download 10 PPVs there, ready and waiting!
> 
> And everyone is making SO many assumptions about what the new DirecTIVO will do and won't do!
> 
> Just give us DLB with the down arrow! And MRV! (and neuter the Active button!)


----------



## ATARI

dennisj00 said:


> I'm late with an answer but I agree, the {PREV} button already has a few different meanings - depending on whether it was a channel or a recording.
> 
> For DLB, the Down Arrow or the UP. . .I don't care, just a unique button on the remote to switch between buffers / tuners.


Won't matter to me, I've got a {Swap} button ready and waiting to be programmed on my universal remote.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Well they have a year to fix it as far as I am concerned. No reason to switch over now, granted Football season is not halfway yet, but there is just no way on Saturday or on Sunday I could live without my swap on 2 live tuners. Rather is College Saturday, or NFL and Nascar on Sunday. Don't alwasy have the time to just sit an watch, in and out alot, nice to just jump in see whats going on and rewind if I have really missed something cool.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> Would {PREV} be acceptable or must it be {DOWN ARROW}?


Down Arrow.:sure:


----------



## henryld

ATARI said:


> Won't matter to me, I've got a {Swap} button ready and waiting to be programmed on my universal remote.


I plan on doing the same if /when it happens.:sure:


----------



## GrumpyBear

So Mid to late 09, D* will have this Basic Feature? Hopefully before the start of the next College and Pro Football season.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> So Mid to late 09, D* will have this Basic Feature? Hopefully before the start of the next College and Pro Football season.


What I have read on the Tivo S3's that they use the Live Button to swap tuners.Hopefully the new HD DirecTivo will use the down arrow.

There have been hints that the DirecTV DVR+'s will get DLB before the new DirecTivo becomes available.Will it happen?.Your guess is as good as mine.

If not I see a migration to the DirecTivo.:sure:


----------



## prospero63

Jhon69 said:


> What I have read on the Tivo S3's that they use the Live Button to swap tuners.Hopefully the new HD DirecTivo will use the down arrow.
> 
> There have been hints that the DirecTV DVR+'s will get DLB before the new DirecTivo becomes available.Will it happen?.Your guess is as good as mine.
> 
> If not I see a migration to the DirecTivo.:sure:


IMO, that's what I see happening as well (I know I will almost certainly go back to TIVO as soon as it's available...). IMO the lack of DLB's is the single biggest drawback of the DirecTV units (with the lack of MRV being a close second). I'm really kind of shocked that DirecTV hasn't addressed both of those already, I mean you can see threads here that go back years requesting these features. AT&T's big selling point right now is their MRV capabilities and 4 tuner recording... and unless I'm mistaken, AT&T just dethroned DirecTV on the JD Powers lists...


----------



## n3ntj

UP arrow or DOWN arrow.. I don't care. Just get the DLB function available on the HR-2x series!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

n3ntj said:


> UP arrow or DOWN arrow.. I don't care. Just get the DLB function available on the HR-2x series!


Up, Down, Right, Left, anything as long as it DLB or "something better". :lol:

I wonder if the latest agreement with TiVo will delay or speed up DLB.

Any one got any thoughts?

Mike


----------



## David MacLeod

plenty of thoughts, just none of them pertinent


----------



## rustynails

I just cant see dlb comming with the current ser of hr dvrs. Maybe when there is a Tivo box!


----------



## BlueMonk

Just got a pair of HR21's installed on Saturday. I never realized how much I used DLB's until then. I hope they get this feature worked out soon!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BlueMonk said:


> Just got a pair of HR21's installed on Saturday. I never realized how much I used DLB's until then. I hope they get this feature worked out soon!!


I had the same problem when I switched. I even knew going in that the HR20 didn't have DLB.  :grin:

I found I got used to it.

With that said, I really would like to have it back. I like keeping one tuner on a channel and surfing on the other. Not easy to do with the workaround 

BTW, if no one's done it yet or even if they have, Welcome to DBSTalk :welcome_s

Mike


----------



## BlueMonk

Thanks Mike. I have been lurking for so long that I don't feel new. Just came back into today to figure out how to get my football games recorded. As usual, lots of good info here.


----------



## MarauderFH

It really makes you wonder why Directv hasn't done DLB - years ago. Seems to reek of poor management - but perhaps poor quality programmers as well (or likely both). Somehow for a year or two it spewed into propaganda (which you can see in these threads), and now its finally coming to fruition now that the monetary cost is being seen. What a shocker.


----------



## prospero63

MarauderFH said:


> It really makes you wonder why Directv hasn't done DLB - years ago. Seems to reek of poor management - but perhaps poor quality programmers as well (or likely both). Somehow for a year or two it spewed into propaganda (which you can see in these threads), and now its finally coming to fruition now that the monetary cost is being seen. What a shocker.


Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that they were waiting to see what happened with the TIVO lawsuits, etc. Now that they have the deal back in place, it's not a concern. I half expect them to day "here you go, DLB and MRV is available in this handy dandy new DirecTV with TIVO DVR. For a mere $199 you can replace an old HR-21 with it".


----------



## Richierich

prospero63 said:


> Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that they were waiting to see what happened with the TIVO lawsuits, etc. Now that they have the deal back in place, it's not a concern. I half expect them to day "here you go, DLB and MRV is available in this handy dandy new DirecTV with TIVO DVR. For a mere $199 you can replace an old HR-21 with it".


I'll SECOND that opinion!!! Where's my NEW MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO??? I can't wait!!! With DLB, MRV and of course the Directv platform and goodies. Let me have it!!!


----------



## jaxfan

prospero63 said:


> Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that they were waiting to see what happened with the TIVO lawsuits, etc. Now that they have the deal back in place, it's not a concern. I half expect them to day "here you go, DLB and MRV is available in this handy dandy new DirecTV with TIVO DVR. For a mere $199 you can replace an old HR-21 with it".


I said that before, you will not see DLB on the HR2x's. D* was right when they said 'something better' is coming. That would be the DirecTivo. But are you kidding $199 !! You know it's going to be no less than $299, I guarantee it.


----------



## raott

prospero63 said:


> Well, I'm kind of of the opinion that they were waiting to see what happened with the TIVO lawsuits, etc. Now that they have the deal back in place, it's not a concern. I half expect them to day "here you go, DLB and MRV is available in this handy dandy new DirecTV with TIVO DVR. For a mere $199 you can replace an old HR-21 with it".


It was never a patent issue. Just about every other dual tuner DVR out there has DLBs - including, Dish, cable and FIOS.

IMO, the issue was more than likely due to Rupert, a few years ago, telling D* they had to use the NDS DVR (one of his other companies) and software used in Europe. AFAIK, that DVR did not have DLBs and therefore the R15 didn't get DLBs.

When the basic GUI and functionality was ported over to the HR2x series, they weren't included either.

I don't believe that either the R15 or HR2x were designed from the ground up by D* - and because of that, many, many things were missed. I am of the opinion that the basic GUI and feature set was simply what was being used on the NDS DVR and now, its very difficult to change.


----------



## Que

jaxfan said:


> I said that before, you will not see DLB on the HR2x's. D* was right when they said 'something better' is coming.


They will have to put it on the HR2x line. I bet this "something better" will come out BEFORE the new D* TiVo DVR


----------



## Nicholsen

Que, you have long running familiarity with the DLB issue.

How long ago was the "better than DLB" promised? Any suggestion as to when it might arrive?


----------



## rustynails

Que said:


> They will have to put it on the HR2x line. I bet this "something better" will come out BEFORE the new D* TiVo DVR


I would like to add DirecTV2PC as a don't need. Man they could have given us dlb before coming up with this non essential software. I don't want to watch tv on my pc but I do want dlb on my dvr.


----------



## PAJeep

rustynails said:


> I would like to add DirecTV2PC as a don't need. Man they could have given us dlb before coming up with this non essential software. I don't want to watch tv on my pc but I do want dlb on my dvr.


This is where everyones needs and wants differ. I for one could care less about DLB. I personally think DIRECTV2PC is great. Not everyone has a house full of tv`s or can afford the 4.99 for the additional receivers if they do have them. Mix that with the kids wanting to watch something when say the big game is on and the problem is now solved.


----------



## inkahauts

Nicholsen said:


> Que, you have long running familiarity with the DLB issue.
> 
> How long ago was the "better than DLB" promised? Any suggestion as to when it might arrive?


It was mentioned about 5 or 6 months ago... and at the time it appeared to be something we wouldn't see until at least the fall... I'm guessing it won't be in a NR for 3 to 6 months...


----------



## Doug Brott

With the release of 0x290, there is another DLB workaround now. Most recent instructions were found here.

*Workaround #1 - toggle between Live TV buffer and recorded program*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #1*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..


*Workaround #2 - toggle between recording buffer and tuner 2 (not buffered)*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #2*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and watch Live TV
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> Show 2 buffer will be gone once you toggle to Show 1
> You can channel surf on Tuner 2 while Show 1 continues to be buffered/recorded
> Show 1 continues to move forward in time if you do not press {PAUSE}
> 
> Keep in mind with Workaround #2 .. You can channel surf until your heart is content on Tuner 2. Each time you change to a new channel on Tuner 2, the buffer will be flushed. If you key in the channel number for Show 1 (the buffered/recorded program), then you will have full access to that program .. kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner.
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x254 and above ..


*Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #3*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Press {LIST} and play Show 2
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> Show 1 and Show 2 can be currently recording - you do not have to wait until they are complete
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x290 and above ..


----------



## Richierich

It would be nice if when you Hit Prev Button that it would automatically Pause that show so we didn't have to remember to do it. That is the way my HR10-250 Tivos work and that should be rather simple for Directv to program.


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> It would be nice if when you Hit Prev Button that it would automatically Pause that show so we didn't have to remember to do it. That is the way my HR10-250 Tivos work and that should be rather simple for Directv to program.


DLB Workaround #3 will in fact pause the program when you hit {PREV}


----------



## jaxfan

Doug Brott said:


> *Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*


How is this Dual *Live* Buffers? This is more like Dual Recorded Shows. :scratchin


----------



## kanderna

Getting closer. Sure would like to see it keep the buffer without hitting pause, but I will say we're getting there. Baby steps, you know!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jaxfan said:


> How is this Dual *Live* Buffers? This is more like Dual Recorded Shows. :scratchin


Nobody is saying that this is Live.

It's a DLB workaround. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

jaxfan said:


> How is this Dual *Live* Buffers? This is more like Dual Recorded Shows. :scratchin


Exactly!

Perhaps in his effort to simplify the description, Doug failed to mention the additional steps of firstly picking (2) live shows to record to act like buffers. But then it would appear to be just another clunky workaround. Oh, wait.......

Still not quite there, but does prove that it is being worked on.
Baby steps I guess.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## tthunder38

Now if they would just add PIP to the mix...............


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> DLB Workaround #3 will in fact pause the program when you hit {PREV}


Yes but Doug that is only GOOD if you are watching 2 RECORDED EVENTS not one Recorded and one Live!!!

I do Record 2 Events and then Select them from the Play List and then Toggle back and forth with the PREV Button!!!

Getting BETTER particularly with the latest software download such as the Skip-To-Tick when in Fast Forward. Way to go Directv!!!


----------



## Flyrx7

MicroBeta said:


> Nobody is saying that this is Live.
> Mike


Actually, yes they are. It is being touted as a Dual LIVE Buffer workaround #3.
Kind of a mis-representation, really, but being an election year I guess that's to be expected.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually, yes they are. It is being touted as a Dual LIVE Buffer workaround #3.
> Kind of a mis-representation, really, but being an election year I guess that's to be expected.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


You do realize that you can watch two live programs that are recording, right? Just record two programs and then start playback of both from My Playlist immediately.

And why is it that progress is a problem .. You all want DLB .. DIRECTV is getting closer and this new feature is a problem?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Actually, yes they are. It is being touted as a Dual LIVE Buffer workaround #3.
> Kind of a mis-representation, really, but being an election year I guess that's to be expected.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


If you read my previous post and your own post you'll see you answered the question.

It is a DLB Workaround #3 not DLB version #3.

It is just a stepping stone progressing to "something better". What that is is anybodys guess but there's no need to hit the messenger with a stick because of symantics.

Believe me, I understand the frustration. IMHO, it won't be DLB untill one tuner sits on a single channel while I'm surfing on the other and I can press one button to bop back and forth when ever I want to.

I guess my point is don't read too much into it. It's a workaround simulating DLB. If you're only interested in two channels it a pretty darned good simulation at that. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> And why is it that progress is a problem .. You all want DLB .. DIRECTV is getting closer and this new feature is a problem?


Trust me, I'm not complaining with the progress, I was just arguing about the semantics (I guess). 
I know it's just a workaround, so whether it's recording first to similate the Live Buffers or not, doesn't really matter at this point, but methinks that the description should state that also, so as not to confuse others that it's only 4-5button presses as opposed to 10-20 that it is actually. YMMV.

Button presses
1- Guide
2- Select show #1 to record
3- While still in guide, select show #2 to record
4- List
5- Play show #1, 
6- List
7- Scroll to show #2
8- Play show #2
9- Delete show #1 when at the end of show OSD, or.....
10- List
11- Select
12- Double dash delete
13-20 Repeat as necessary for show #2 (4-5 presses, +/-)

While the original DLB is nearly as simple as 3 button presses to enjoy, Directv is definetely making progress and I'm not trying to devalue that effort at all.

Actually, just playing devils advocate to further the discussion. At least I'm not post padding like some Cutting Edge discussion that happens about once a week. 

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Flyrx7

MicroBeta said:


> .......there's no need to hit the messenger with a stick because of symantics.
> Mike


Mike,

Not trying to pick a fight. Merely pointing out that the TLA in question kind of defines it as "Live", not memorex. That's all. But as you say, it's just semantics.

I am glad that Directv is taking the time to work on this. It is plain to see that they are indeed working on something, whereas before, there wasn't any action or word from them on this. Very hopefull indeed!

Regards,
Frank

(becoming more hopefull with every NR!)


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> You do realize that you can watch two live programs that are recording, right? Just record two programs and then start playback of both from My Playlist immediately.
> 
> And why is it that progress is a problem .. You all want DLB .. DIRECTV is getting closer and this new feature is a problem?


Doug, many thanks as always for your (and many others as well) hard work here. It is appreciated.

In your opinion, is D* working toward DLB, or just providing some workarounds in lieu of DLB?


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Trust me, I'm not complaining with the progress, I was just arguing about the semantics (I guess).


Fair enough, but a long list like that just confuses the matter .. really. I'll add a short note that states the two programs from the list can be currently recording programs. The full sequence isn't necessary as everyone should know how to start a recording, right?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Not trying to pick a fight. Merely pointing out that the TLA in question kind of defines it as "Live", not memorex. That's all. But as you say, it's just semantics.
> 
> I am glad that Directv is taking the time to work on this. It is plain to see that they are indeed working on something, whereas before, there wasn't any action or word from them on this. Very hopefull indeed!
> 
> Regards,
> Frank
> 
> (becoming more hopefull with every NR!)


I didn't think you were trying to pick a fight. 

It definitly is semantics(with the correct spelling this time  )

When we get to the "something better", I'll be happy. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> Doug, many thanks as always for your (and many others as well) hard work here. It is appreciated.
> 
> In your opinion, is D* working toward DLB, or just providing some workarounds in lieu of DLB?


There are two ways to skin a cat .. one is just do it and hope there's not too much chaos .. The other is to take precautions so there is no chaos.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Doug Brott said:


> There are two ways to skin a cat .. one is just do it and hope there's not too much chaos .. The other is to take precautions so there is no chaos.


They are into chaos lately. I say go for it. ;-)


----------



## jaxfan

Doug Brott said:


> And why is it that progress is a problem .. You all want DLB .. DIRECTV is getting closer and this new feature is a problem?


Who says this is progress? You may think it is progress because it's some what resembles parts of DLB but do you truly know these "baby steps" will lead to true DLB? I've been with D* way to long to fall for the "For Future Use"\"Something better is Coming" BS. Like I said several times before, the Something Better is the DirecTivo unit coming next year. As far as I am concerned all these so called "baby steps" are nothing more than added features and half a** attempts to create something that closely resembles DLB that will hopefully satisfy the masses until the DirecTivo unit comes out.

I have no problem eating crow if D* ever adds true DLB to the HR2x's. But honestly, I truly believe that will never happen.


----------



## Doug Brott

jaxfan said:


> I have no problem eating crow if D* ever adds true DLB to the HR2x's. But honestly, I truly believe that will never happen.


OK .. thanks for sharing your belief


----------



## ATARI

It sure seems to me they are working towards true DLB.

Am I missing something?

Why can't someone in the know just came out and say "Yes, they are working on getting DLB for the HRs."


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> It sure seems to me they are working towards true DLB.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Why can't someone in the know just came out and say "Yes, they are working on getting DLB for the HRs."


They come out and say what we are privy to. 

They may not know or may not be allowed to tell.

Either way, if they were able to tell us something you can bet they would.

There's just nothing to say right now. :grin:

Besides, not saying either way isn't going to change who I have for my TV service provider. I just want all the HD I can get. Not that I wouldn't take DLB/something when it comes. 

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

richierich said:


> It would be nice if when you Hit Prev Button that it would automatically Pause that show so we didn't have to remember to do it. That is the way my HR10-250 Tivos work and that should be rather simple for Directv to program.


Please don't say that . If I wanted to pause I would . Also I just tried all of my TIvo's ( including the 10-250 ) and it doesn't pause it keeps on going just like it meant to do .


----------



## Lord Vader

ATARI said:


> It sure seems to me they are working towards true DLB.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> Why can't someone in the know just came out and say "Yes, they are working on getting DLB for the HRs."


It's not that they're "working on" DLB--they have the technical ability to switch it on when they want; rather, they simply choose _*not*_ to offer DLB.


----------



## RCY

MicroBeta said:


> They come out and say what we are privy to.
> 
> They may not know or may not be allowed to tell.
> 
> Either way, if they were able to tell us something you can bet they would.
> 
> There's just nothing to say right now. :grin:
> 
> Besides, not saying either way isn't going to change who I have for my TV service provider. I just want all the HD I can get. Not that I wouldn't take DLB/something when it comes.
> 
> Mike


As long as my D* SD boxes hold out, I'm not in a hurry to make a decision on HD satellite content. I can get the "big events" (NFL, Superbowl, World Series, etc.) OTA HD.

DLB and stability are key elements that will go into choosing my provider for HD content.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

RCY said:


> As long as my D* SD boxes hold out, I'm not in a hurry to make a decision on HD satellite content. I can get the "big events" (NFL, Superbowl, World Series, etc.) OTA HD.
> 
> DLB and stability are key elements that will go into choosing my provider for HD content.


I wish I could anything OTA. For the most part, all I can get is PBS in HD.

Everything else has to come from a service provider. We'er surrounded by high ground....not even really that high either...just high enough I guess. 

That's why I was willing to give up DLB, to get HD. Of course, back in Dec '06/Jan '07 time frame it was thought that Directv was working on it for the HR20.

In '96 a DirecTV rep(at the Big E) told me they would have locals soon. We finally got 'em in the fall of '02.

Well get DLB soon......:sure:

At least I have HD. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> It's not that they're "working on" DLB--they have the technical ability to switch it on when they want; rather, they simply choose _*not*_ to offer DLB.


I'm not really sure it's simply a matter of "switching" it on. Unless you know something I don't. Which could very well be the case. 

Mike


----------



## TheRatPatrol

tthunder38 said:


> Now if they would just add PIP to the mix...............


+100


----------



## GrumpyBear

MicroBeta said:


> I'm not really sure it's simply a matter of "switching" it on. Unless you know something I don't. Which could very well be the case.
> 
> Mike


I have seen it posted that, the Current line up HR2x's have what's needed to make DLB work. D* has just chosen not to go that way.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> I have seen it posted that, the Current line up HR2x's have what's needed to make DLB work. D* has just chosen not to go that way.


Having "what's needed" and putting all the pieces connected are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> Having "what's needed" and putting all the pieces connected are not mutually exclusive.


Now that is true.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> I have seen it posted that, the Current line up HR2x's have what's needed to make DLB work. D* has just chosen not to go that way.


It's true that under certain conditions both tuners are buffering while nothing is recording.

I think it's a whole other thing to keep it that way and make both tuners accessable.

I'm not a programmer so I could be wrong about that but what I do know makes me think it's harder then just turning it on.

However, I've been know to wrong. :grin:

Mike


----------



## CrownSeven

MicroBeta said:


> It's true that under certain conditions both tuners are buffering while nothing is recording.
> 
> I think it's a whole other thing to keep it that way and make both tuners accessable.
> 
> I'm not a programmer so I could be wrong about that but what I do know makes me think it's harder then just turning it on.
> 
> However, I've been know to wrong. :grin:
> 
> Mike


I am a programmer, and yes it may be difficult, and it may not be. Without looking at how they do things currently one can never know. But since the HR2xx's are capable of recording 2 channels at once, I can't see there being a lot of work to just turn on this feature for DLB, and have the recordings dump to a temporary file that the user does not see?


----------



## Lord Vader

Why do we even continue this line of technical discussion about DLB when Earl once explained that DirecTV had the technological ability to implement DLB? They simply *choose * not to do so. Too many people here keep talking about whether it's feasible technologically, how they'd do it, etc. That's all irrelevant because they just *choose * not to implement it.


----------



## BubblePuppy

When I first received the HR20-700, I was more than miffed that it didn't have DBL, like my Tivo had. me--->:bonk1:<----HR20
But, I quickly appreciated the 90 minute buffer of the unit, now is the chance to save a show that I missed. Nice.
Now, there is a big part of me that would miss the big buffer for two small DLB buffers. If both buffers would be 90 minutes, I would be ecstatic. :icon_da:


----------



## Flyrx7

Lord Vader said:


> Why do we even continue this line of technical discussion about DLB when Earl once explained that DirecTV had the technological ability to implement DLB? They simply *choose * not to do so. Too many people here keep talking about whether it's feasible technologically, how they'd do it, etc. That's all irrelevant because they just *choose * not to implement it.


I believe it stems from the fact that it just doesn't make sense that they "choose not to implement it". Logically, it would seem that there would have to be a physical barrier preventing this feature, or a patent or something, because "we can do it, we just choose not too" seems pretty adolescent.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Lord Vader said:


> Why do we even continue this line of technical discussion about DLB when Earl once explained that DirecTV had the technological ability to implement DLB? They simply *choose * not to do so. Too many people here keep talking about whether it's feasible technologically, how they'd do it, etc. That's all irrelevant because they just *choose * not to implement it.


They CHOOSE not to do it YES. They COULD do it, and they do monitor this forum.
So how else to tell a company INCLUDE, the MOST REQUESTED feature!!! 
Remaining quiet or just dropping it, sends the WRONG signal. Lemming's we ARE NOT.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> They CHOOSE not to do it YES. They COULD do it, and they do monitor this forum.
> So how else to tell a company INCLUDE, the MOST REQUESTED feature!!!
> Remaining quiet or just dropping it, sends the WRONG signal. Lemming's we ARE NOT.


Nobody can accuse us of being quiet...at times not very logical and certainly redundant but not quiet. :grin:

I agree that keeping the issue alive is the best way to get noticed.

Your are correct, "Lemming's we ARE NOT"....there is that lemur...  :lol:

Mike


----------



## MX727

Lord Vader said:


> Too many people here keep talking about whether it's feasible technologically, how they'd do it, etc. That's all irrelevant because they just *choose * not to implement it.


I disagree. The latest release has added a third workaround for DLB using both recording buffers. The final step will be for them to enable DLB WITHOUT having to press the record button. I believe they are working in that direction based this latest development.

Additionally, some of the much more recent comments from people in the know seem to indicate that DLB is very far from a dead issue. Earl's last comments on the issue were nearly a year ago. Much has changed IMO.


----------



## ATARI

MX727 said:


> I disagree. The latest release has added a third workaround for DLB using both recording buffers. The final step will be for them to enable DLB WITHOUT having to press the record button. I believe they are working in that direction based this latest development.
> 
> Additionally, some of the much more recent comments from people in the know seem to indicate that DLB is very far from a dead issue. Earl's last comments on the issue were nearly a year ago. Much has changed IMO.


Well said. While Earl's comments were accurate at the time, a lot has changed since then. D* stance on DLB is no way set in stone.


----------



## MX727

Another statement that gets thrown around is: DLB is an easy programming exercise therefore D* has decided against it. I just read something to that effect in another thread.

If it was truly easy, I don't believe that D* would dig in their heels on this issue. It doesn't make sense from any marketing point of view. If they could have easily done it, they would have. It has been hard, but they are working on it. The newest workaround is clear evidence to me that DLB has never been abandoned.


----------



## BlueMonk

I came to this thread wondering if DTV was working on DLB and was pleased to find out the subject on the last page of the thread. 

My understanding after reading all this is that we just do not know if they are working on DLB at this time.


----------



## Crypter

MX727 said:


> Another statement that gets thrown around is: DLB is an easy programming exercise therefore D* has decided against it. I just read something to that effect in another thread.
> 
> If it was truly easy, I don't believe that D* would dig in their heels on this issue. It doesn't make sense from any marketing point of view. If they could have easily done it, they would have. It has been hard, but they are working on it. The newest workaround is clear evidence to me that DLB has never been abandoned.


What is the "new" workaround? and how do you use it?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BlueMonk said:


> I came to this thread wondering if DTV was working on DLB and was pleased to find out the subject on the last page of the thread.
> 
> My understanding after reading all this is that we just do not know if they are working on DLB at this time.


We pretty much know that they are NOT working on DLB as we know it.

It has been said that they're working on "Something Better". 

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

MX727 said:


> I disagree. The latest release has added a third workaround for DLB using both recording buffers. The final step will be for them to enable DLB WITHOUT having to press the record button. I believe they are working in that direction based this latest development.
> 
> Additionally, some of the much more recent comments from people in the know seem to indicate that DLB is very far from a dead issue. Earl's last comments on the issue were nearly a year ago. Much has changed IMO.


It doesn't matter that Earl's comments were a year ago. The fact remains that DirecTV then and now has the capability to implement DLB. They simply _choose_ not to do so.



ATARI said:


> Well said. While Earl's comments were accurate at the time, a lot has changed since then. D* stance on DLB is no way set in stone.


Actually, it is not well said at all, for the OP doesn't get it. See my statement immediately above.



MX727 said:


> Another statement that gets thrown around is: DLB is an easy programming exercise therefore D* has decided against it. I just read something to that effect in another thread.
> 
> If it was truly easy, I don't believe that D* would dig in their heels on this issue. It doesn't make sense from any marketing point of view. If they could have easily done it, they would have. It has been hard, but they are working on it. The newest workaround is clear evidence to me that DLB has never been abandoned.


It might not make sense from a marketing point of view, but that's what it is. There is one very good reason from their point of view to never implement DLB, customers' desires be damned. I won't elaborate on it here and now, but it's for a reason that is totally selfish and pro-DirecTV.

As has been explained _ad infinitum_, DLB doesn't today exist simply because DirecTV _chooses_ not to have it exist.


----------



## mpar1

MX727 said:


> I disagree. The latest release has added a third workaround for DLB using both recording buffers. The final step will be for them to enable DLB WITHOUT having to press the record button. I believe they are working in that direction based this latest development.


That ability would make me forget all about the HR10-250.


----------



## Crypter

Lord Vader said:


> It doesn't matter that Earl's comments were a year ago. The fact remains that DirecTV then and now has the capability to implement DLB. They simply _choose_ not to do so.
> 
> Actually, it is not well said at all, for the OP doesn't get it. See my statement immediately above.
> 
> It might not make sense from a marketing point of view, but that's what it is. There is *one very good reason from their point of view to never implement DLB*, customers' desires be damned. I won't elaborate on it here and now, but it's for a reason that is totally selfish and pro-DirecTV.
> 
> As has been explained _ad infinitum_, DLB doesn't today exist simply because DirecTV _chooses_ not to have it exist.


Please elaborate for those of us that are not enlightened on the subject.


----------



## Doug Brott

Crypter said:


> What is the "new" workaround? and how do you use it?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1852522&postcount=2903

Essentially, you can toggle between two recordings now. Before 0x290 that was not possible.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> It might not make sense from a marketing point of view, but that's what it is. There is *one very good reason from their point of view to never implement DLB*, customers' desires be damned. I won't elaborate on it here and now, but it's for a reason that is totally selfish and pro-DirecTV.





Crypter said:


> Please elaborate for those of us that are not enlightened on the subject.


Yes, please do.


----------



## ATARI

Lord Vader said:


> As has been explained _ad infinitum_, DLB doesn't today exist simply because DirecTV _chooses_ not to have it exist.


You really haven't explained it so much as presented your opinion, my dark side friend.

What evidence do you have that they are not working on DLB?

(and if you ask me to present evidence, I'll refer you to post #2951)


----------



## dreadlk

It certainly can be done, but Directv has just not made it an important issue, we will all just have to wait until they decide to make a beta release and start the ball rolling. IMHO it's 1000x more important than Directv2pc, it's a shame they spent more time on that than this.


----------



## say-what

dreadlk said:


> It certainly can be done, but Directv has just not made it an important issue, we will all just have to wait until they decide to make a beta release and start the ball rolling. IMHO it's 1000x more important than Directv2pc, it's a shame they spent more time on that than this.


But that's a piece of the puzzle for MRV, which is 1000x more important than DLB to me.


----------



## say-what

Doug Brott said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1852522&postcount=2903
> 
> Essentially, you can toggle between two recordings now. Before 0x290 that was not possible.


Which makes it 100% user controlled and IMO more useful.


----------



## Lord Vader

Crypter said:


> Please elaborate for those of us that are not enlightened on the subject.


What, and get blasted by some of those who worship at the feet of DirecTV? Hardly.

I'm a longtime, satisfied DirecTV customer, but I won't hesitate to criticize them when I think they're in the wrong, as they are with DLB.


----------



## Lord Vader

ATARI said:


> You really haven't explained it so much as presented your opinion, my dark side friend.
> 
> What evidence do you have that they are not working on DLB?
> 
> (and if you ask me to present evidence, I'll refer you to post #2951)


I never said they're "not working on" DLB, although if they were, it would be to tweak it in such a way that it would be different from the DLB we presently know. This would have to be the only explanation, because as I've mentioned earlier, many folks in-the-know here have said numerous times that DirecTV has the technological ability to implement DLB, and has had it for some time. They simply *choose *not to implement it at this time.

Whether that changes we shall see, of course.


----------



## inkahauts

I want to see the buffer record the last 90 mins of WHATEVER has been showing on a tuner, even if it has changed stations, etc... then add the second tuner as well and give us DLB... That would be great... 

And Replaytv really did it best... It used ALL available drive space for its live buffers, so the limit of the buffer was the size of your hard drive.... It'd be nice if Directv could make it 90 mins guaranteed, plus any available space on your hard drive...


----------



## Que

inkahauts said:


> I want to see the buffer record the last 90 mins of WHATEVER has been showing on a tuner, even if it has changed stations, etc... then add the second tuner as well and give us DLB... That would be great...
> 
> And Replaytv really did it best... It used ALL available drive space for its live buffers, so the limit of the buffer was the size of your hard drive.... It'd be nice if Directv could make it 90 mins guaranteed, plus any available space on your hard drive...


I think there is more then one DVR that has DLB and 90 mins out there.


----------



## inkahauts

Que said:


> I think there is more then one DVR that has DLB and 90 mins out there.


Um, huh? There probably is somewhere... But I don't know of any that will buffer everything from a tuner for the last 90 mins or more, irregardless of the channels it has been tuned too...


----------



## Lord Vader

inkahauts said:


> Um, huh? There probably is somewhere... But I don't know of any that will buffer everything from a tuner for the last 90 mins or more, irregardless of the channels it has been tuned too...


"Irregardless"??? Did someone just say "irregardless"??? :bonk1:


----------



## kanderna

Lord Vader said:


> "Irregardless"??? Did someone just say "irregardless"??? :bonk1:


:lol:


----------



## bodlfed66

Wow coming up on post 3000 in this thread. I check in occasionally and cannot believe this is still rolling....Rock on DLB


----------



## bodlfed66

It is almost like Directv said "we get it, we messed up. Were past that now and we are trying to make up for it with dtv2pc, vod, mediashare, etc." All that is cool but I really miss DLB. You would think with the massive amount of posting on the subject it would get somewhere.


----------



## bodlfed66

I wonder if they have given up on that now that TIVO is coming back.


----------



## RCY

bodlfed66 said:


> I wonder if they have given up on that now that TIVO is coming back.


It would be too bad if they did. I like D*, but would have a very hard time re-upping for another 2 years for a HD box without DLB.


----------



## DblD_Indy

RCY said:


> It would be too bad if they did. I like D*, but would have a very hard time re-upping for another 2 years for a HD box without DLB.


Me Toooo! I am afraid that this box has me started an addiction for waiting for the options i want. I guess that is why I did'nt think twice when I purchased my G1 phone.

Goooooo DLB!


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *187 8.68%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 336 15.59%*
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 146 6.77%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1400 64.97%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 86 3.99%*
Voters: *2155*

Replies 2,967 
Views 111,184

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


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## dennisj00

This is about as long as I've seen this thread go silent. I added a H21 receiver that restored my P&P and in only 2 days of using it (waiting on the two games tonight and of course the weekend!), I STILL want DLB!


----------



## RCY

dennisj00 said:


> This is about as long as I've seen this thread go silent. I added a H21 receiver that restored my P&P and in only 2 days of using it (waiting on the two games tonight and of course the weekend!), I STILL want DLB!


I figure D* has heard the many requests for DLB - D* gets to decide if they're going to implement this capability. With the lack of movement on true DLB, I'll probably look at alternatives to D* once my SD DVRs die.


----------



## Flyrx7

RCY said:


> I figure D* has heard the many requests for DLB - D* gets to decide if they're going to implement this capability. With the lack of movement on true DLB, I'll probably look at alternatives to D* once my SD DVRs die.


Funny you should mention looking for an alternative......

http://www.att.com/Common/totalhomedvr/

I couldn't find anything on Live Buffers, but I thought it was pretty interesting that they can record 4 things at the same time as well as provide MRV on up to 4 TV's with only a single DVR unit.
It seems that powerhouse D* got beat to the market with MRV too. Interesting.

I'm going to do some more research on the AT&T Total Home DVR and see if it's a viable solution.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Funny you should mention looking for an alternative......
> 
> http://www.att.com/Common/totalhomedvr/
> 
> I couldn't find anything on Live Buffers, but I thought it was pretty interesting that they can record 4 things at the same time as well as provide MRV on up to 4 TV's with only a single DVR unit.
> It seems that powerhouse D* got beat to the market with MRV too. Interesting.
> 
> I'm going to do some more research on the AT&T Total Home DVR and see if it's a viable solution.


Yup .. That DVR can record 4 (SD) things at once or 2 (HD) things at once .. oh, and if any of those remote units want to watch a 3rd HD thing .. forget about it. It's a marketing blitz for sure, but don't think for a minute that AT&T's Uverse is the answer.


----------



## Flyrx7

According to the info from that link, it says up to 3 shows HD and 1 SD. That's still 1 more HD than the HR boxes will do, not to mention that it'll do twice as many SD shows (4). All this from 1 box too. You can also support up to 8 tv's with additional DVR's. Sounds like they got a pretty good start on MRV.

Now I know how pro Directv this forum is, so I expect people to bash any of the alternatives, but I thought it was an interesting unit. I'll continue to source data for a second opinion, but thanks for yours.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## RCY

Flyrx7 said:


> Funny you should mention looking for an alternative......
> 
> http://www.att.com/Common/totalhomedvr/
> 
> I couldn't find anything on Live Buffers, but I thought it was pretty interesting that they can record 4 things at the same time as well as provide MRV on up to 4 TV's with only a single DVR unit.
> It seems that powerhouse D* got beat to the market with MRV too. Interesting.
> 
> I'm going to do some more research on the AT&T Total Home DVR and see if it's a viable solution.


Can't get Uverse where I'm at yet, but thanks for the info. I do know that my brother-in-law has a pretty nice package including HD, DVR and internet. I was not overly impressed with the HD quality compared to my OTA HD, but it was ok. Next time I'm over I'll probably play a bit with the DVR.

But I still have some time, and hold out hope (however small) that D* will finally implement DLB.


----------



## GrumpyBear

They sure spend alot of time showing you how you can watch recorded material on the master DVR from any tv in your house thats hooked up. 
Sure looks like they have MRV mastered. Still don't see DLB included in the AT&T setup though. With Football season in full swing, DLB once again proves its the #1 feature on a DVR.


----------



## rawilson

Doug Brott said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1852522&postcount=2903
> 
> Essentially, you can toggle between two recordings now. Before 0x290 that was not possible.


If you can do this, then why, Why, WHY shouldn't you be able to switch tuners when not recording? It really doesn't make sense. If a football game I'm recording/watching goes into overtime, I'm screwed.

I also use DLB at all times when I'm watching...if I hit a commercial when I'm watching live, I pause then switch to the other tuner to scan other channels. I might be in the minority on this, but DirecTivo allowed me to do it, so I do. I still don't like the "upgrade" and sure hope the new Directv / Tivo solution fixes it or I'm gone when my contract is up.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Flyrx7 said:


> According to the info from that link, it says up to 3 shows HD and 1 SD. That's still 1 more HD than the HR boxes will do, not to mention that it'll do twice as many SD shows (4). All this from 1 box too. You can also support up to 8 tv's with additional DVR's. Sounds like they got a pretty good start on MRV.
> 
> Now I know how pro Directv this forum is, so I expect people to bash any of the alternatives, but I thought it was an interesting unit. I'll continue to source data for a second opinion, but thanks for yours.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Point out alternatives, just don't mention that they have functioning features that D* doesn't have have like MRV, DLB or anything like that.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> According to the info from that link, it says up to 3 shows HD and 1 SD. That's still 1 more HD than the HR boxes will do, not to mention that it'll do twice as many SD shows (4). All this from 1 box too. You can also support up to 8 tv's with additional DVR's. Sounds like they got a pretty good start on MRV.
> 
> Now I know how pro Directv this forum is, so I expect people to bash any of the alternatives, but I thought it was an interesting unit. I'll continue to source data for a second opinion, but thanks for yours.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


OK .. there may be situations where 3 HD & 1 SD will work .. I don't have the service, but my understanding is that there is only enough bandwidth for 2 HD .. But that is for the WHOLE house! Each DIRECTV receiver can do 2 HD .. I happen to have 10 HD and 3 SD tuners in my house .. With DIRECTV, I could theoretically watch/record 13 different things at the same time. UVerse maxes out @ 3 HD & 1 SD for everything in the house. So, yeah for me, it would be a step back. I often have 4 HD recordings at the same time and I could not do that with Uverse.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> Point out alternatives, just don't mention that they have functioning features that D* doesn't have have like MRV, DLB or anything like that.


Actually point it out all you want .. Uverse will work for some people but I believe that many will find it limiting.


----------



## Doug Brott

rawilson said:


> If you can do this, then why, Why, WHY shouldn't you be able to switch tuners when not recording? It really doesn't make sense. If a football game I'm recording/watching goes into overtime, I'm screwed.
> 
> I also use DLB at all times when I'm watching...if I hit a commercial when I'm watching live, I pause then switch to the other tuner to scan other channels. I might be in the minority on this, but DirecTivo allowed me to do it, so I do. I still don't like the "upgrade" and sure hope the new Directv / Tivo solution fixes it or I'm gone when my contract is up.


This is what we have today, which is an improvement over what we had in the past.


----------



## veryoldschool

I take my hat off to the mods that have kept up with this thread.

My thoughts on Dual Live Buffers: "I have none".


----------



## dennisj00

I still want DLB . . . even with P&P now there's still too much delay, too many remotes involved compared to the ONE button that switches between tuners and buffers. It can't be that hard!

Why dance around it?


----------



## ghfiii

I have had DirecTV for over ten years. For years I have been telling people to dump cable and Dish. I do this for the simple reason that I consider DirecTV to be the best deal for pay TV. Now when I go through the reasons to switch, I have to admit that DirecTV does not have DLB. The reaction is always some variation of "Really, I thought all "DVR/Tivo/Whatever" did this?"

I have generally had three TVs connected for the majority of that time. I had two of the old RCA boxes for nearly 7 years. The first box I added to my original two room kit (that I *bought* from WalMart) was a Toshiba HD DST3000 that I bought online and *PAID $600* for. When that died a year and some change later it was replaced with a DirecTV with Tivo box that I bought for $99 and a one year commitment to continue carrying Showtime (I could not see laying out more big bucks on an HD box). Then we replaced one of the old RCA boxes with an R15. No one ever watches this DVR anymore...no DLB. The last addition was an HR21. Wanted a HD DVR and had to live without DLB but at least we got it free (sort of, another commitment to continue service).

All the above is just a way of saying I have been very committed to DirecTV. I paid for and owned most of the boxes I have used. 

Right now we have 3 DVRs...
1 HD DVR that we watch a lot--watch for the pretty picture, and is connected to the network (have not found anything good from on demand, and media share...meh) 
1 SD Tivo that we watch a lot--DLB, I have not added an ethernet port
1 SD DirecTV DVR that we never watch--No DLB (that is why it does not get used), no ethernet port

DLB would mean that I would get a real tangible upgrade to two of my boxes. MRV gets me jack squat.

The numbers I want are this? *What percentage of subscribers will really be able to take advantage of MRV?*

You have to have at least one DVR that has a network connection, one or more additional boxes with a network port on the box and a connection to your lan (that means purchase or own Cat 5/5e/6 wire and have it pulled or pull it yourself, purchase or own a compatible wireless network adapter and WAP, or purchase or own a powerline network adapter)

I know compared to a lot of the people on this forum I have not spent a lot of money on DirecTV equipment over the years, but compared to others I have spent a ton more money.

So I think I have the right to point out the following...

ARE YOU LISTENING DIRECTV? The following is pretty simple logic

*The set of users that would benefit from DirecTV adding DLB is larger than the set of users which would be affected by MRV. 
*
I know someone will argue the point above, so I'll say it another way, every DVR would benefit from DLB. Not every DVR is or will be connected to a network and thus those not networked will not benefit from MRV.

:nono2: Oh, and don't bring out the old argument that you don't want your one 90 minute buffer split into two 30 minute buffers. Tivo hackers know about BUFFERHACK. So let us agree the buffer size is flexible.

You know, I think I just convinced myself to discontinue service on our R15...I just have to remember to call :icon_stup


----------



## hdtvfan0001

My current thoughts on DLB is that you won't see it in 2008, and whatever form it is delivered with will be at least slightly different than the Tivo form some folks were used to in the "olden days".

Anyone holding their breath to see it "soon" may end up turning purple in the process.


----------



## Pepster

The work around is better than nothing, but an actual live buffer would be much better.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Pepster said:


> The work around is better than nothing, but an actual live buffer would be much better.


The work around blows. I haev to think about it and set it up the right way. The next problem is teaching the wife and dealing with the time we don't do it correctly.

MRV will be nice, all my equipment is networked (never thought I would need a 4 port switch in my bedroom) but I would rather have DLB because it is something I would use every day.

COME ON DTV STOP BEING A BUNCH OF BABIES AND ADMIT YOU SCREWED UP


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DC_SnDvl said:


> COME ON DTV STOP BEING A BUNCH OF BABIES AND ADMIT YOU SCREWED UP


Nothing's screwed up on a feature that not everyone requires or desires.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing's screwed up on a feature that not everyone requires or desires.


I had it with my HR10-250 and they took it away to give us mpeg4


----------



## Flyrx7

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing's screwed up on a feature that not everyone requires or desires.


That's kind of an understatement, now isn't it?
If you don't care for it or desire it then it doesn't effect you at all. For those that want it, it effects them.

I guess it still fits the criteria of "what are your thoughts....", but to disregard other's desires based on you own is, how did someone say recently, Take the "big picture" view and not just "your view".


----------



## veryoldschool

DC_SnDvl said:


> I had it with my HR10-250 and they took it away to give us mpeg4


Maybe this:
"I had it with my HR10-250 *then *they took it away *and* gave us mpeg4."


----------



## GrumpyBear

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing's screwed up on a feature that not everyone requires or desires.


No what is screwy is, having a feature that is standard on older machines, the competition is adding, and saying your the sports leader and dropping the best feature for the sports people. All on a promise of adding features, that will replace DLB, that have turned in to vaporware.
Granted the only time of year I am tempted to come over to D* is at the beginning of football season. Lack of DLB is always a killer for me. 
Next year the lack of DLB and the lack of not being able to hook my external drive to any dvr on my account, and move it so I can watch shows, will probably kill it for me to comeover again. No reason to involve the rest of the family as I wont even be able to sell myself.


----------



## inkahauts

ghfiii said:


> I have had DirecTV for over ten years. For years I have been telling people to dump cable and Dish. I do this for the simple reason that I consider DirecTV to be the best deal for pay TV. Now when I go through the reasons to switch, I have to admit that DirecTV does not have DLB. The reaction is always some variation of "Really, I thought all "DVR/Tivo/Whatever" did this?"
> 
> I have generally had three TVs connected for the majority of that time. I had two of the old RCA boxes for nearly 7 years. The first box I added to my original two room kit (that I *bought* from WalMart) was a Toshiba HD DST3000 that I bought online and *PAID $600* for. When that died a year and some change later it was replaced with a DirecTV with Tivo box that I bought for $99 and a one year commitment to continue carrying Showtime (I could not see laying out more big bucks on an HD box). Then we replaced one of the old RCA boxes with an R15. No one ever watches this DVR anymore...no DLB. The last addition was an HR21. Wanted a HD DVR and had to live without DLB but at least we got it free (sort of, another commitment to continue service).
> 
> All the above is just a way of saying I have been very committed to DirecTV. I paid for and owned most of the boxes I have used.
> 
> Right now we have 3 DVRs...
> 1 HD DVR that we watch a lot--watch for the pretty picture, and is connected to the network (have not found anything good from on demand, and media share...meh)
> 1 SD Tivo that we watch a lot--DLB, I have not added an ethernet port
> 1 SD DirecTV DVR that we never watch--No DLB (that is why it does not get used), no ethernet port
> 
> DLB would mean that I would get a real tangible upgrade to two of my boxes. MRV gets me jack squat.
> 
> The numbers I want are this? *What percentage of subscribers will really be able to take advantage of MRV?*
> 
> You have to have at least one DVR that has a network connection, one or more additional boxes with a network port on the box and a connection to your lan (that means purchase or own Cat 5/5e/6 wire and have it pulled or pull it yourself, purchase or own a compatible wireless network adapter and WAP, or purchase or own a powerline network adapter)
> 
> I know compared to a lot of the people on this forum I have not spent a lot of money on DirecTV equipment over the years, but compared to others I have spent a ton more money.
> 
> So I think I have the right to point out the following...
> 
> ARE YOU LISTENING DIRECTV? The following is pretty simple logic
> 
> *The set of users that would benefit from DirecTV adding DLB is larger than the set of users which would be affected by MRV.
> *
> I know someone will argue the point above, so I'll say it another way, every DVR would benefit from DLB. Not every DVR is or will be connected to a network and thus those not networked will not benefit from MRV.
> 
> :nono2: Oh, and don't bring out the old argument that you don't want your one 90 minute buffer split into two 30 minute buffers. Tivo hackers know about BUFFERHACK. So let us agree the buffer size is flexible.
> 
> You know, I think I just convinced myself to discontinue service on our R15...I just have to remember to call :icon_stup


Oh, interesting timing that you are asking this question of how many people would benifit from DLB vs. MRV... Based on a couple polls, including the one for this thread and one asking people what their other boxes are if they already have at least one HD DVR... I calculate the answer is... ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT!!!!!

But there is really only one true way to find that out...

There are 3 big things that people want, from what I have seen... DLB, MRV and no more series link limit... I wonder which is more important to people...


----------



## Nicholsen

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing's screwed up on a feature that not everyone requires or desires.


I think that argument would cover most DVR "features" other than record and play, as well as all of the D*channels in the 200's. Not very persuasive.

I am really unhappy with my HR21. However, the lack of DLB is issue one with me. Issue two is the horrible slo-mo implementation.


----------



## Flyrx7

inkahauts said:


> There are 3 big things that people want, from what I have seen... DLB, MRV and no more series link limit... I wonder which is more important to people...


Hmmm, sounds like a poll is in order!

Of DLB, MRV and series link limitations, what other DVR's, other than the D* HR units, lack these features?


----------



## GrumpyBear

inkahauts said:


> Oh, interesting timing that you are asking this question of how many people would benifit from DLB vs. MRV... Based on a couple polls, including the one for this thread and one asking people what their other boxes are if they already have at least one HD DVR... I calculate the answer is... ABOUT THE SAME AMOUNT!!!!!
> 
> But there is really only one true way to find that out...
> 
> There are 3 big things that people want, from what I have seen... DLB, MRV and no more series link limit... I wonder which is more important to people...


I would love to see the poll, where people voted the same for MRV as DLB. 
What would be better though, is for D* to PUT back a feature they had on thier DVR's, a feature that is Standard on all the competition now. Then move forward with adding "Real" new features.
On a More serious note, stay safe today Inkahauts, weather in your area, is like ours last year, and I know its no fun.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

GrumpyBear said:


> No what is screwy is, having a feature that is standard on older machines, .


Maybe that's why they're "older machines".....they have old technology that isn't needed or really desired anymore... 


Nicholsen said:


> I think that argument would cover most DVR "features" other than record and play, as well as all of the D*channels in the 200's. I am really unhappy with my HR21. However, the lack of DLB is issue one with me. Issue two is the horrible slo-mo implementation.


...and we LOVE our HR21-200 here - solid as a rock. You can see things in slo-mo on the HR21 using the trickplay on the remote, but again....we have never seen any use for it here.

Everyone has their "pet" features...nothing wrong with that. 

But one such feature doesn't not a DVR make...and despite the fact that I don't miss DLB in any form, size, or shape (had it on the "old DirecTV Tivobox")....I also don't miss black and white TV either.

IMHO, DLB is a couch potato convenience feature.....which people can take or leave. I have no problem using the prev button on the remote if I want to toggle. I don't miss DLB in any form, and likely wouldn't use it even if it was there. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Boltjames???



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Maybe that's why they're "older machines".....they have old technology that isn't needed or really desired anymore...
> 
> ...and we LOVE our HR21-200 here - solid as a rock. You can see things in slo-mo on the HR21 using the trickplay on the remote, but again....we have never seen any use for it here.
> 
> Everyone has their "pet" features...nothing wrong with that.
> 
> But one such feature doesn't not a DVR make...and despite the fact that I don't miss DLB in any form, size, or shape (had it on the "old DirecTV Tivobox")....I also don't miss black and white TV either.
> 
> IMHO, DLB is a couch potato convenience feature.....which people can take or leave. I have no problem using the prev button on the remote if I want to toggle. I don't miss DLB in any form, and likely wouldn't use it even if it was there. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Flyrx7

Maybe we should just rename this thread to "Why do you want DLB", instead of "What are your thoughts...." Does it really matter what your thoughts are for why it's not a necessary feature? Where does that get us?

This is clearly a pro-DLB thread, but yet we get all sorts that come in here and tell us that it's old tech, an unwanted feature, and because they don't use it or need it, it doesn't make sense for anyone else to want it. 
If you don't like it, don't want it, would never use it, then why waste your time posting to this thread unless it's too belittle other's desires to have DLB? To me this smacks of some kind of superiority complex, and these people just like to come in here just stir up the hornets nest. I don't get it.


----------



## Doug Brott

Isn't it a good thing that time is not static ..


----------



## veryoldschool

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe we should just rename this thread to "Why do you want DLB", instead of "What are your thoughts...." Does it really matter what your thoughts are for why it's not a necessary feature? Where does that get us?
> 
> This is clearly a pro-DLB thread, but yet we get all sorts that come in here and tell us that it's old tech, an unwanted feature, and because they don't use it or need it, it doesn't make sense for anyone else to want it.
> If you don't like it, don't want it, would never use it, then why waste your time posting to this thread unless it's too belittle other's desires to have DLB? To me this smacks of some kind of superiority complex, and these people just like to come in here just stir up the hornets nest. I don't get it.


Since you've already quoted me from another thread, I'll put in another two cents.

Yes, we shouldn't "hammer" those that want a feature.
[shoe on other foot] "some" do get so tired of the "Tivo clan" and their endless complaining about [mostly] DLB.

We've heard this for over two years. [think of a little kid asking "are we there yet" for two years].

Now I do understand this feature is a "MUST HAVE" for some, or their life is either coming to an end or will never be fulfilled.

As the Rolling Stones once put it:

You can't always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

Tolerance and respect for others on both sides of this please.


----------



## inkahauts

Flyrx7 said:


> Hmmm, sounds like a poll is in order!
> 
> Of DLB, MRV and series link limitations, what other DVR's, other than the D* HR units, lack these features?


And a small poll is up!

I might start a big one at some point that basically has everyone ranking ALL wishlist items.. That might be a bit of work though...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=145329


----------



## Flyrx7

veryoldschool said:


> Yes, we shouldn't "hammer" those that want a feature.
> [shoe on other foot] "some" do get so tired of the "Tivo clan" and their endless complaining about [mostly] DLB.


Yeah, we all know how it works around here. Mention Tivo and everyone gets up in arms, one way or the other. But what I don't get is what does Tivo have to do with our desire for D* to implement DLB. Sure, Tivo does it, but so does just about everyone else. So making this all about Tivo whiners is not a valid argument, IMHO. DLB Whiners on the other hand......I probably resemble that.



veryoldschool said:


> We've heard this for over two years. [think of a little kid asking "are we there yet" for two years].


You know how the saying goes, "Squeaky wheel gets the grease". Besides, you do have the choice of not hanging out in this "car" with us children.

All I'm saying is, why is it that the people that could give a "rats hat" about DLB have to come in this thread and try to convince those that do want it that they don't need it, or that D* is never going to do it since it's not a core function of a DVR, or all the many other BS reasons for not having DLB.

I think we can all agree that pro-DLBer's are not going to try to convince you that you need DLB, so don't try to convince us we don't, that's all.



veryoldschool said:


> Tolerance and respect for others on both sides of this please.


Agree 100%, but I really don't see where DLBer's are disrespecting the non-DLBer's here, mostly the other way around if anything. Is it disrespect for not wanting to get harangued for wanting a feature? The only intolerance I've seen so far from the "pro" camp has been aimed at D*, not necessarily other individuals. I think alot of people here take it personally when D* get's a bad rap and feel that they have to step in and defend them. That's generally where the arguments get started and feelings get hurt. D* is a big boy, I'm pretty sure they can defend themselves (if they even really care to).

So, VOS, no disrespect, serously. It's clear to see that we are on different sides of the fence here. I think I've been civil with you and every other person here. If I haven't, please point it out (and I'll apologize in advance if I've hurt anyone's feelings).

Regards,
Frank


----------



## dennisj00

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe we should just rename this thread to "Why do you want DLB", instead of "What are your thoughts...." Does it really matter what your thoughts are for why it's not a necessary feature? Where does that get us?
> 
> This is clearly a pro-DLB thread, but yet we get all sorts that come in here and tell us that it's old tech, an unwanted feature, and because they don't use it or need it, it doesn't make sense for anyone else to want it.
> If you don't like it, don't want it, would never use it, then why waste your time posting to this thread unless it's too belittle other's desires to have DLB? To me this smacks of some kind of superiority complex, and these people just like to come in here just stir up the hornets nest. I don't get it.


You and I have been around here long enough to see there are several posters that feel their opinions are the only ones that count and the hell with anyone that disagrees.

It's fun to get comments and PMs from others to disregard comments from someone because they're a little overbearing at times! I'm not sure why anyone on this board should talk down or belittle anyone else. Other than they can because of their anonymous position. And you know who you are!

I still want DLB because of its ease of use and impact on my viewing experience. I see no reason why it can't be implemented as easy as any other feature on the HR series or any other DVR. The arguments against it hold no more water than arguing against any other feature - WHY argue against any feature other than overloading the physical functionality of the box.

Now that MRV is really close, two 90 minute live buffers that I can switch between with one keypress will make the HR series the best DVR available. (I have no other problems with mine.)


----------



## Flyrx7

dennisj00 said:


> Now that MRV is really close, two 90 minute live buffers that I can switch between with one keypress will make the HR series the best DVR available. (I have no other problems with mine.)


I would agree with that assertation 100%.

I've said this before, and will say it again. The minute we get DLB is the minute I'll start waving the Directv flag.....I'll even refrain from typing it as D* (I think that may make some people upset. Not sure)

I've also said before that I do like my HR20 very much, I've had very little issue with it otherwise, and that I do agree that D* has probably the best service around. But to me, without DLB, I can only rank it as a 6 out of 10.
I'll give them a 9.5 when I get DLB. I'd even RBR once a week and be happy, as long as I had DLB.


----------



## James Long

Flyrx7 said:


> You know how the saying goes, "Squeaky wheel gets the grease". Besides, you do have the choice of not hanging out in this "car" with us children.


In this case the parent has decided which way to go and has put in their ear buds and is drowning out the noise with their choice of music. This thread is an entirely pointless exercise in futility.

The only purpose left for this thread is to keep the complaints from overrunning the DBSTalk forum and allow other topics to be discussed without being drowned out by the noise. No post in this thread will get DLB working on any DirecTV DVR.

And those are my thoughts on DLB. Since "What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?" is the topic and not "Why I want DLB." one should expect contrary posts.


----------



## Flyrx7

James Long said:


> In this case the parent has decided which way to go and has put in their ear buds and is drowning out the noise with their choice of music. This thread is an entirely pointless exercise in futility.
> 
> The only purpose left for this thread is to keep the complaints from overrunning the DBSTalk forum and allow other topics to be discussed without being drowned out by the noise. No post in this thread will get DLB working on any DirecTV DVR.
> 
> And those are my thoughts on DLB. Since "What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?" is the topic and not "Why I want DLB." one should expect contrary posts.


So, tell us how you really feel :lol:

As you cleverly pointed out my ruse for renaming the thread, I will point out that it's not the contrary posts that are bothersome. As you said, they are to be expected. But when they become derogatory or belittling is when they get tiring.

With that being said, I'll take a little self imposed "time out" for awhile.
I can see that the fix is in. With the mods and CE crew telling us that "This thread is an entirely pointless exercise in futility", blaming it all on Tivo and labeling us petulant children and whiners, I can see that the writing on the wall says that we'll get nowhere here. Later.


----------



## Nicholsen

James:

This is an interesting post. 

If I understand correctly, you are confirming what a lot of posters have asserted before. DLB is never going to happen, so quit asking. With no disrespect, this is exactly what I was told about TIVO by the moderators on the board.

I suspect most of the DLB fanatics (and I am one) will ultimately move to the new TIVO box in 2009, if only to get access to that feature.


----------



## dennisj00

James,

It would be helpful to know that as a Moderator or Super Moderator if this is a known fact or just your opinion.

Sometimes we get accurate hints or straight information from moderators, sometimes we get their opinion.


----------



## James Long

Flyrx7 said:


> I can see that the fix is in. With the mods and CE crew telling us that "This thread is an entirely pointless exercise in futility", blaming it all on Tivo and labeling us petulant children and whiners, I can see that the writing on the wall says that we'll get nowhere here. Later.


FYI: I'm not connected to CE and was trying to post as a member, not a moderator. I wouldn't place ANY of the blame on TiVo (since the receivers being complained about didn't have DLB long before TiVo agreed to design a new receiver). DirecTV made a decision not to include the feature. It isn't there because it isn't there. No black helicopter conspiracies needed. 

I also believe that you'll get nowhere anywhere ... not just here. DirecTV has made a decision that they are apparently sticking with.

If you want DLB do what I did ... get a receiver that has it (although I did not get mine because of DLB).


Nicholsen said:


> If I understand correctly, you are confirming what a lot of posters have asserted before. DLB is never going to happen, so quit asking. With no disrespect, this is exactly what I was told about TIVO by the moderators on the board.


I would not say "never" but I would say that it will be on DirecTV's schedule, not influenced by any internet forum. There are places and issues where the providers want our input ... I don't believe the decision on DLB is one of those places.


> I suspect most of the DLB fanatics (and I am one) will ultimately move to the new TIVO box in 2009, if only to get access to that feature.


What month in 2009? What would you do if the new TiVo DirecTV box didn't include DLB?


dennisj00 said:


> Sometimes we get accurate hints or straight information from moderators, sometimes we get their opinion.


Just my opinion ... but I may have picked up a hint from reading these threads.


----------



## Nicholsen

I think the new TIVO box has to arrive before 9/1 (est. NFL kick-off), or I probably cancel Sunday Ticket and head to the sports bar for the 2009 season.

If the new TIVO box does not have DLB, I will have to seriously consider saying farewell to D* altogether, buying a new TIVO box and learning about cable cards.

I don't think those of us who are anxiously waiting for a new TIVO will be satisfied with one that does not have DLB, especially when we know it is already a standard TIVO feature.


----------



## Que

Flyrx7 said:


> If you don't like it, don't want it, would never use it, then why waste your time posting to this thread unless it's too belittle other's desires to have DLB? To me this smacks of some kind of superiority complex, and these people just like to come in here just stir up the hornets nest. I don't get it.


I was thinking the same thing........


----------



## Que

veryoldschool said:


> Since you've already quoted me from another thread, I'll put in another two cents.
> 
> Yes, we shouldn't "hammer" those that want a feature.
> [shoe on other foot] "some" do get so tired of the "Tivo clan" and their endless complaining about [mostly] DLB.
> 
> We've heard this for over two years. [think of a little kid asking "are we there yet" for two years].
> 
> Now I do understand this feature is a "MUST HAVE" for some, or their life is either coming to an end or will never be fulfilled.
> 
> As the Rolling Stones once put it:
> 
> You can't always get what you want
> And if you try sometime you find
> You get what you need
> 
> Tolerance and respect for others on both sides of this please.


... but..mom.... everyone else has it!

D* is the *only* DVR without it! Right? It's not just TiVo, it's all of them have DLB. Just not D*


----------



## Que

Flyrx7 said:


> Yeah, we all know how it works around here. Mention Tivo and everyone gets up in arms, one way or the other. But what I don't get is what does Tivo have to do with our desire for D* to implement DLB. Sure, Tivo does it, but so does just about everyone else. So making this all about Tivo whiners is not a valid argument, IMHO. DLB Whiners on the other hand......I probably resemble that.
> 
> You know how the saying goes, "Squeaky wheel gets the grease". Besides, you do have the choice of not hanging out in this "car" with us children.
> 
> All I'm saying is, why is it that the people that could give a "rats hat" about DLB have to come in this thread and try to convince those that do want it that they don't need it, or that D* is never going to do it since it's not a core function of a DVR, or all the many other BS reasons for not having DLB.
> 
> I think we can all agree that pro-DLBer's are not going to try to convince you that you need DLB, so don't try to convince us we don't, that's all.
> 
> Agree 100%, but I really don't see where DLBer's are disrespecting the non-DLBer's here, mostly the other way around if anything. Is it disrespect for not wanting to get harangued for wanting a feature? The only intolerance I've seen so far from the "pro" camp has been aimed at D*, not necessarily other individuals. I think alot of people here take it personally when D* get's a bad rap and feel that they have to step in and defend them. That's generally where the arguments get started and feelings get hurt. D* is a big boy, I'm pretty sure they can defend themselves (if they even really care to).
> 
> So, VOS, no disrespect, serously. It's clear to see that we are on different sides of the fence here. I think I've been civil with you and every other person here. If I haven't, please point it out (and I'll apologize in advance if I've hurt anyone's feelings).
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


Nicely said frank!


----------



## DC_SnDvl

What about the better than DLB thing that we were told about? That can't be MRV because it is not better than DLB (or worse) it is something else and has no relationship with DLB?



James Long said:


> FYI: I'm not connected to CE and was trying to post as a member, not a moderator. I wouldn't place ANY of the blame on TiVo (since the receivers being complained about didn't have DLB long before TiVo agreed to design a new receiver). DirecTV made a decision not to include the feature. It isn't there because it isn't there. No black helicopter conspiracies needed.
> 
> I also believe that you'll get nowhere anywhere ... not just here. DirecTV has made a decision that they are apparently sticking with.
> 
> If you want DLB do what I did ... get a receiver that has it (although I did not get mine because of DLB).
> I would not say "never" but I would say that it will be on DirecTV's schedule, not influenced by any internet forum. There are places and issues where the providers want our input ... I don't believe the decision on DLB is one of those places.
> What month in 2009? What would you do if the new TiVo DirecTV box didn't include DLB?
> Just my opinion ... but I may have picked up a hint from reading these threads.


----------



## puffnstuff

DC_SnDvl said:


> What about the better than DLB thing that we were told about? That can't be MRV because it is not better than DLB (or worse) it is something else and has no relationship with DLB?


There isn't any "something better " coming , it was all Directv bull as usual . I mean seriously it's been way to long to wait for "something better " .


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> I think the new TIVO box has to arrive before 9/1 (est. NFL kick-off), or I probably cancel Sunday Ticket and head to the sports bar for the 2009 season.
> 
> If the new TIVO box does not have DLB, I will have to seriously consider saying farewell to D* altogether, buying a new TIVO box and learning about cable cards.
> 
> I don't think those of us who are anxiously waiting for a new TIVO will be satisfied with one that does not have DLB, especially when we know it is already a standard TIVO feature.


I can't imagine a new DIRECTV TiVo will be markedly different than current TiVos .. Nor can I imagine it to be available by 9/1 .. TiVo still has time to prove me wrong, though.


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> What about the better than DLB thing that we were told about? That can't be MRV because it is not better than DLB (or worse) it is something else and has no relationship with DLB?


As James noted, he was posting as a member .. "somthing better" is just what it means.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> ... Nor can I imagine it to be available by 9/1 .. TiVo still has time to prove me wrong, though.


Yep, I still have 9/30/2009 in the friendly DBSTalk Office pool


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> As James noted, he was posting as a member .. "somthing better" is just what it means.


So are you saying that "something better " does not relate to DLB ?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Could the "better then DLB" be PIP? According to this post its coming.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> So are you saying that "something better " does not relate to DLB ?


I don't believe I ever said that ..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

theratpatrol said:


> Could the "better then DLB" be PIP? According to this post its coming.


PiP wouldn't be "something better". IMHO, in order to be "something better" it must at least have some DLB like qualities.

Just my opinion but PiP, at it's best, would do nothing but add steps to be able to swap buffers.

My 2¢.

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> I don't believe I ever said that ..


I know , just want to make sure nothing changed .


----------



## TheRatPatrol

MicroBeta said:


> PiP wouldn't be "something better". IMHO, in order to be "something better" it must at least have some DLB like qualities.
> 
> Just my opinion but PiP, at it's best, would do nothing but add steps to be able to swap buffers.
> 
> My 2¢.
> 
> Mike


I think it would be great to have PIP, being able to watch 2 games at once, or watch the news or a show while keeping an eye on a game.

How would it add steps? If you see something in the other window happening, just arrow over to highlight it to hear the audio.

With PIP you can see whats on both buffers at the same time.

But I do agree, DLB+PIP would be the best solution.


----------



## Flyrx7

theratpatrol said:


> But I do agree, DLB+PIP would be the best solution.


PIP+DLB=BTDLB

But if the only way to utilize DLB is w/ PIP it won't be BTDLB. Being able to use one OR the other would be nice, and therefore gets my vote.
Where do I sign up?

Frank


----------



## Mike Bertelson

theratpatrol said:


> I think it would be great to have PIP, being able to watch 2 games at once, or watch the news or a show while keeping an eye on a game.
> 
> How would it add steps? If you see something in the other window happening, just arrow over to highlight it to hear the audio.
> 
> With PIP you can see whats on both buffers at the same time.
> 
> But I do agree, DLB+PIP would be the best solution.


It would add steps by having to go to PiP and switch tuners. DLB should, IMHO, be a one button operation to switch tuners.

I would most likely not use PiP. I like DLB by itself because I can keep one tuner on one channel while surfing the other. Speaking only for myself I find the little window annoying. I never liked PiP.

Now if in addition to having PiP, you could directly access the oppsite tuner now that would be good.

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

I have DLB with PiP on the ViP622 and ViP612. I don't use the PiP much, but it is nice when 2 games are both running neck and neck in the 4th quarter. Easy to swap over to one with the action, vs the one that is at a commercial timeout.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Flyrx7 said:


> PIP+DLB=BTDLB
> 
> But if the only way to utilize DLB is w/ PIP it won't be BTDLB. Being able to use one OR the other would be nice, and therefore gets my vote.
> Where do I sign up?
> 
> Frank


Ok you got me, what is BTDLB?



MicroBeta said:


> It would add steps by having to go to PiP and switch tuners. DLB should, IMHO, be a one button operation to switch tuners.
> 
> I would most likely not use PiP. I like DLB by itself because I can keep one tuner on one channel while surfing the other. Speaking only for myself I find the little window annoying. I never liked PiP.
> 
> Now if in addition to having PiP, you could directly access the oppsite tuner now that would be good.
> 
> Mike


I don't understand how it would add steps though, to use PIP is should be just a one button press.

Maybe I need to be more clearer. Hopefully if we ever get PIP it would be side by side PIP (SBSPIP) so both screens would be the same size, not a little window, although having a size option (like E* does) would be nice too. So you could have one window on one channel while surfing in the other window.

However, I do see what you're saying, if you don't like PIP then DLB would be available for you to use too.



GrumpyBear said:


> I have DLB with PiP on the ViP622 and ViP612. I don't use the PiP much, but it is nice when 2 games are both running neck and neck in the 4th quarter. Easy to swap over to one with the action, vs the one that is at a commercial timeout.


When you press "swap" with SBSPIP on do the pictures actually swap or just the audio? It would be quicker if you only had the audio swap.

Yeah I would use SBSPIP for sports a lot.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Swap does just what it says it does, swap directly between the 2 buffers, in a single button. 
PiP, is a different button. Once you have PiP, when you hit swap, it swaps the Video and Audio instantly, so the smaller screen becomes the larger screen and audio, and the old larger picture is now smaller. Both are always up. I have used it on my newer 56" Panasonic plasma, as you can adjust the size of the PiP and actually split the screen 50-50, with only 1 active for Audio though. Once again, I only really use it towards the end of 2 games, when they are both close, otherwise, I just swap over to other game, during a commercial break or when I feel like it. It is useful but I don't use it that much. I do have a couple of Friends that use it all the time as they keep the Nascar Race, in the small PiP and watch the game on the bigger Picture. I will do that too, but in reverse towards the end of the race, last 30 or so laps, I move to the race on the big Picture and have a game on in the little picture. You do have access to the pause feature, as well, and I will pause the Race, to jump over to live action in a game, and then go back to the race and unpause it.


----------



## puffnstuff

theratpatrol said:


> Ok you got me, what is BTDLB?
> 
> Better Than Dual LIve Buffers . It comes from the statement that DLB could be done , but they are working on something better , Or something along those lines . That was back in May I believe , but what it is and if it even has anything to do with DLB we don't know . I just wish I knew what it was and after we do get it and it's not DLB related they say " Here's your something better "


----------



## James Long

DC_SnDvl said:


> What about the better than DLB thing that we were told about? That can't be MRV because it is not better than DLB (or worse) it is something else and has no relationship with DLB?


"Something better than" is a matter of opinion ... the DirecTV person who said that likely believes whatever he was referring to to be better than DLB. It is obvious that to the person who desires DLB above all else there is nothing better than DLB.

The person desiring only DLB starts at that point and requires DLB to be part of the answer regardless of what that answer may be. MRV can never be better because it isn't DLB. Name any fantasy feature (eg: live 1080p sports) and it won't be better than DLB unless it contains DLB. At least for the person fixated on DLB.

It is like wanting a ham sandwich and being handed the keys to a Mustang. If all you want is a ham sandwich a Mustang will never satisfy.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

theratpatrol said:


> Ok you got me, what is BTDLB?
> 
> I don't understand how it would add steps though, to use PIP is should be just a one button press.
> 
> Maybe I need to be more clearer. Hopefully if we ever get PIP it would be side by side PIP (SBSPIP) so both screens would be the same size, not a little window, although having a size option (like E* does) would be nice too. So you could have one window on one channel while surfing in the other window.
> 
> However, I do see what you're saying, if you don't like PIP then DLB would be available for you to use too.
> 
> When you press "swap" with SBSPIP on do the pictures actually swap or just the audio? It would be quicker if you only had the audio swap.
> 
> Yeah I would use SBSPIP for sports a lot.


It's more then one button because I have to press a button get PiP and then another to switch between which is in the inset or the whole screen.

I want to get the opposite tuner with a single button press.

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

MicroBeta said:


> It's more then one button because I have to press a button get PiP and then another to switch between which is in the inset or the whole screen.
> 
> I want to get the opposite tuner with a single button press.
> 
> Mike


Well Just have 2 buttons. One that just swaps, so that would give you what you want, single button to switch between live feeds, and one that brings up PiP, and allows you to swap between the 2 live feeds with a single button. 
Granted its a concept that works on other machines and shouldn't be to hard to do.


----------



## Flyrx7

James Long said:


> "Something better than" is a matter of opinion ... the DirecTV person who said that likely believes whatever he was referring to to be better than DLB. It is obvious that to the person who desires DLB above all else there is nothing better than DLB.
> 
> The person desiring only DLB starts at that point and requires DLB to be part of the answer regardless of what that answer may be. MRV can never be better because it isn't DLB. Name any fantasy feature (eg: live 1080p sports) and it won't be better than DLB unless it contains DLB. At least for the person fixated on DLB.
> 
> It is like wanting a ham sandwich and being handed the keys to a Mustang. If all you want is a ham sandwich a Mustang will never satisfy.


It can all just be a bunch of doublespeak, corporate-line mumbo jumbo too.
I think what has the pro DLBer's hoping it's DLB like, is the matter of context during the conversation. But we have beat that horse to death like 20 pages ago, no need to re-hash it yet again now (we can save that re-run for a year from now when we still don't have either).

But to be BTDLB, it has to have DLB. Afterall, DLB is in the acronym :lol:


----------



## dennisj00

Since it's all an interpretation of the comments made in the chat room, his definition of 'something better than dlb' could be MRV, 1080p, widgets, ads in the guide, etc., etc., etc. and may have absolutely nothing to do with DLB.

And like the 'secret' passed around the room by kids or any group. . . the interpretation of the interpretation gets better (or worse) depending on your stand.

I still can't imagine why we don't have DLB. It would make the use of the second tuner so much easier -- and enhance the viewing experience of those that want it -- with no real impact to those that don't.


----------



## GrumpyBear

The original comment by the CTO was something better was coming that would make us forget all about DLB. Not that it was a DLB+ or something. People ran with it all sorts of ways, before it was closed. Everybody seemed to have all sorts of ideas, and it always cameback to DLB, and the BTDLB, just seemed to grow mushrooms.


----------



## James Long

Perhaps those fixated on DLB are on mushrooms?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> Perhaps those fixated on DLB are on mushrooms?


That's not true...why what have you heard.


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> Perhaps those fixated on DLB are on mushrooms?


Well, 
D* people must be taking little nips as well, since they have worked so hard on coming up with work arounds.


----------



## dennisj00

Actually more effort in dancing around with workarounds than implementing the real thing!


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> The original comment by the CTO was something better was coming that would make us forget all about DLB. Not that it was a DLB+ or something. People ran with it all sorts of ways, before it was closed. Everybody seemed to have all sorts of ideas, and it always cameback to DLB, and the BTDLB, just seemed to grow mushrooms.


I would have to say that sex is better than DLB.

At least it temporarily makes me forget about the lack of DLB on the HR20.

Call me a freak, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## dennisj00

Possibly the first argument against DLB that I can agree with!

There are a few times during the day that I don't think about DLB!


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> Perhaps those fixated on DLB are on mushrooms?


Drug reference in Dbstalk.com So that is what the D for? 

Mr. Mackie - "You shouldn't do drugs. If you do them you are bad. Because drugs are bad m'kay"


----------



## MX727

I'm once again dismayed by D*. Their current push for "MRV" makes little sense as a priortiy over DLB.

One of the arguments against DLB is that most people aren't technical enough to care or use DLB. The "anything D* does is grand" folks have gone on to point out that this board and thus the poll is slanted because of the technical nature of individuals that access these boards.

The MRV which D* seems to be pursuing, is merely the ability to network D* boxes together and then share content between the two. A true MRV would allow one box to send output to multiple TVs throughout the residence.

In any case, this implementation of MRV will require much more technical ability than the average person possesses. The will have to set up a network, and run cables or buy the wireless adapters for each box. So any poll on here that shows MRV to be a more requested feature, would be even more subject to the above selection bias. 

I continue to be amazed at D*'s product strategy. They made the first HR-20 without DLB and then, after hearing the initial complaints, they've made the HR-21, -22, and now -23 without addressing the problem. Furthermore, they removed the OTA tuners. Earl stated at the time, it wasn't an issue because most people would be able to get their locals in HD from the satellite. That is true for ABC, NBC, CBS and FOX, but leaves out over half of the other local HD channels in most DMAs. In Memphis, I get 4 HD locals on my HR-22, but my HR-10 gets 19 HD locals. I'm speaking of PBS, CW AND all of the sub-carriers that are available. DirecTV continue to show a lack of understanding on what and how people watch their TVs.

In order for my HR-22 to do everything that my HR-10 does, I need the unit, an AM-21 and I have to keep my HR-10 running for DLB. 

In order for my HR-22 to do everything a E* ViP box does, I need the unit, an AM-21, a wireless adapter and I need my HR-10 for DLB. Furthermore, I need an entire matching setup at my second TV vs. a coax cable with the ViP.

The HR-X is a fine basic DVR. Essentially, it is a single tuner box with the ability to record a second show in the background. That other tuner is completely off limits to the user for any other purpose. And, we've documented how that causes problems for all users when they are recording a show that runs long. They have no control over which tuner was being recorded and thus they can't count on switching back to live TV and rewinding the buffer to catch the overrun. It just might not be there.

It's really a shame, as I do think that D* has the better service and content. Their equipment is just horrible.


----------



## 430970

MX - I get your perspective, honestly, I just respectfully disagree. I was a huge Tivo fanboy (had the first DirecTivos, bought a HR10-250 for $649 soon after they came out, had an R10 in the other room). I waited on the sidelines for a long time (nearly 2 years) before I took the plunge into HR2x land.

I think the HR22 is a fine receiver. Not revolutionary or even evolutionary, but certainly a capable replacement for the vast majority of people. You and I are in the "top 10%" (or probably top 5%) of users in terms of functionality we expect. And even there, DirecTV is offering some features the top 10% wants (MRV, photo/music sharing). I certainly want DLB. I live without it, but it's still irritating to me. 

I had my first bogus recordings earlier this week - and was totally pissed off. But as long as that doesn't become a pattern, I'll say my HR22 was a sideways trade (not a downgrade or upgrade) from my HR10. Is that depressing given that it's 3-4 years later? Yes, but I'll live.

BTW - I agree with everything you say about MRV. Not sure why that's so high on the list given all the other features (not just DLB) and stability still to add.


----------



## Flyrx7

jcricket said:


> BTW - I agree with everything you say about MRV. Not sure why that's so high on the list given all the other features (not just DLB) and stability still to add.


Personally, I think it's just a sign of support from this forum to D*, simply because of the current status of testing on MRV. If DLB was currently in testing as MRV is then it would likely have higher marks too. Just a theory though, but the placement on the wish list show that DLB has more votes, so go figure.

While MRV will be nice to have, I REALLY don't look forward to all the work I have to do to utilize and enjoy it. I don't really know anything about networking. I have a wireless G router for my desktop, with the hopes of sharing files with my laptop, etc. It took me 3 months of hit or miss effort just to be able to do that. Those things are definetely not plug and play. Not to mention all the other devices I'll have to purchase (guessing) to make network connections throughout the house.

In order for D* to market MRV to any great extent, I would think that they would also have to provide hardware and installation services too. What I wouldn't look forward to at all is having to call a CSR and ask them for help troubleshooting a network over the phone  I can see some fairly strong growing pains in the future for MRV. DLB would be nearly an invisible feature, in as such that the support for that feature will be miniscule compared to MRV.

So, with that said, it would certainly seem more reasonable to implement DLB simply because the overhead is much less (my assumption), and anyone could enjoy it without hardware installations, night courses at the community college on networking, not to mention maybe only having 1 receiver to begin with. But oh well, maybe their logic will prove itself soon.

Frank


----------



## GrumpyBear

I don't think that DLB is for just the top 10%-5%. Just look at the competition, can post all the makers that now have DLB, but will leave that to Q, he loves point it out. Most reviews of the HR2x, lack of DLB is a missing feature, if DLB was so low on the totem poll, meaning 90% of users wouldn't use it, Reviewers wouldn't be commenting on it as a missing feature, nor would the competition be including DLB on all thier new DVR units.
As for MRV, not sure which is easier, running cables from point to point, or just adding a new network device, by a new drop, either cable or wireless. 
Me adding a network device would be eaiser and cleaner. The idea of running a bunch cables, gives me nightmares of the old Arcnet days. I refuse to metion that IBM stuff.


----------



## dennisj00

(this is paraphrased from another post to protect the innocent!)

I agree the networking required for MRV will be somewhat problematic for the general population. I mention to my friends that my DVRs and Receiver are networked. They look at the sideways!

I mention that you can download from the Internet various programs from VOD. They reply ' Why would I want to do that?' 

I mention you will be able to share what you record between boxes. . .again 'Why'? is the response.

But these are the same friends that use (or used) DLB without knowing it's DLB!


----------



## pikespeakhiker

This has probably been stated over and over on this thread, but there is a very easy workaround for DLB. (and with the latest NR it became even easier) And I just switched from multiple, networked (read: MRV'd) series 2 directivos as of July. 

There is no workaround for MRV. That is why I would consider MRV my highest priority.


----------



## dennisj00

And it's been stated over and over that the DLB workaround still leaves you hanging. . . if your game / program runs over and you didn't pad the recording. . . and on and on and on. . .


----------



## RCY

pikespeakhiker said:


> This has probably been stated over and over on this thread, but there is a very easy workaround for DLB. (and with the latest NR it became even easier)
> ...


There is a workaround, but it is not DLB. Setting up recordings you flip between is a nice feature, but it is not, nor will it ever be, DLB.


----------



## vicmeldrew

do not underestimate those of us out here that want dlb; it makes me laugh that some of you think it is too technical - just the opposite; i have not gotten hd because of the non dlb dvr and if my direct tivos die before dlb is offered, either in the dtv dvr or the tivo i wil switch to another source; i was going to go hd several months ago but a job change put that on hold but but now i am considering a new widescreen by the end of the year and if i want the hd i will consider my options; basically, what i am saying is i do not watch commercials and dlb is 100% of my viewing and also for a lot of people i know; so just do not discount the use of dlb; everyone does not post.


----------



## Doug Brott

vicmeldrew said:


> do not underestimate those of us out here that want dlb; it makes me laugh that some of you think it is too technical - just the opposite; i have not gotten hd because of the non dlb dvr and if my direct tivos die before dlb is offered, either in the dtv dvr or the tivo i wil switch to another source; i was going to go hd several months ago but a job change put that on hold but but now i am considering a new widescreen by the end of the year and if i want the hd i will consider my options; basically, what i am saying is i do not watch commercials and dlb is 100% of my viewing and also for a lot of people i know; so just do not discount the use of dlb; everyone does not post.


I don't think there is anybody underestimating the number of people that want DLB .. One only has to look at this poll. As for being too technical .. I don't think so, the only person I remember even suggesting that hasn't been around these parts in a while. Let's not make him out to be bigger than he really is 

Now, DLB 100% of the time? I find that hard to believe . That would mean that you never pause nor make recordings (why would you, you'd never watch it ). I do get your point, really, but 100%? .. Nah.


----------



## RACJ2

Doug Brott said:


> Now, DLB 100% of the time? I find that hard to believe . That would mean that you never pause nor make recordings (why would you, you'd never watch it ). I do get your point, really, but 100%? .. Nah.


When I had cable and was watching live TV, I used DLB all the time as well. Commercial comes on, press swap and watch another program. Commercial comes on, press swap to go back to original program. Since change to D*, I have been using the work around of recording both. With the storage on an HR22, it hasn't been a problem, just clean up after. Would I like DLB, you better beleive it.


----------



## Flyrx7

vicmeldrew said:


> do not underestimate those of us out here that want dlb;


While they may not underestimate your desire, there are several of those that will try to minimize your desire or justification for it. You'll probably get 2-3 of them before the day is done.

Oh yeah, if you want any respect from your postings, try not to mention the "T" word around here. That really brings out the hate mongers.

DLB content: I do agree with your method to, as that was how I used it too.
Most of our recorded content was stuff that the wife and I would watch together, but since she turns in early I'd have to find something live. I could anchor a decent show and surf the other tuner, switch and repeat, all night long and be happy. It is a real cool way to watch live TV. Most nay sayers here will say "we don't watch live TV, why should you?" They would rather change you than accept your desire for DLB.


----------



## puffnstuff

RACJ2 said:


> When I had cable and was watching live TV, I used DLB all the time as well. Commercial comes on, press swap and watch another program. Commercial comes on, press swap to go back to original program. Since change to D*, I have been using the work around of recording both. With the storage on an HR22, it hasn't been a problem, just clean up after. Would I like DLB, you better beleive it.


Exactly what I did before !


----------



## mikewolf13

RCY said:


> There is a workaround, but it is not DLB. Setting up recordings you flip between is a nice feature, but it is not, nor will it ever be, DLB.


Right, at best it's half as effective a workaround as having multiple DVRs is a workaround for MRV..yet that doesn't stop people from clamoring for that.


----------



## James Long

Flyrx7 said:


> Oh yeah, if you want any respect from your postings, try not to mention the "T" word around here. That really brings out the hate mongers.


Talk about the issue, not the posters, and you'll get the most respect.
Act like a winner and you'll be a winner - act like a whiner and ...


----------



## puffnstuff

mikewolf13 said:


> Right, at best it's half as effective a workaround as having multiple DVRs is a workaround for MRV..yet that doesn't stop people from clamoring for that.


I tried using the work around when it first came out , hated it never have used it since . Thats why I have 3 HR's on a switch works great . I just wish I could move one of these downstairs , for when we get MRV . I just hope that MRV is not something better , I know it probably is , but for me DLB would be used all the time by me . MRV not so much , maybe a couple of times a year . Plus no one would have to do anything for it to work .


----------



## sunking

RCY said:


> There is a workaround, but it is not DLB. Setting up recordings you flip between is a nice feature, but it is not, nor will it ever be, DLB.


I don't even think its a nice as it requires me to do too much cleanup afterwards. The whole point of DLB is that I'm allowed to be lazy at the risk of sometimes screwing up my buffers and losing part of a show i don't really care about anyway. Now I have to care enough to go and delete shows afterwards. Too much work for TV.


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> Talk about the issue, not the posters, and you'll get the most respect.
> Act like a winner and you'll be a winner - act like a whiner and ...


Peace!

"Hey Man, is that freedom rock? Yeah man! Well, turn it up, man!"


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Other than switching between games I would also use DLB to surf between shows when I did not want to watch recorded shows.

The work arround does not do anything to help use DLB in this way. I would spend more time setting up recordings than watching TV.[

QUOTE=Flyrx7;1892254]While they may not underestimate your desire, there are several of those that will try to minimize your desire or justification for it. You'll probably get 2-3 of them before the day is done.

Oh yeah, if you want any respect from your postings, try not to mention the "T" word around here. That really brings out the hate mongers.

DLB content: I do agree with your method to, as that was how I used it too.
Most of our recorded content was stuff that the wife and I would watch together, but since she turns in early I'd have to find something live. I could anchor a decent show and surf the other tuner, switch and repeat, all night long and be happy. It is a real cool way to watch live TV. Most nay sayers here will say "we don't watch live TV, why should you?" They would rather change you than accept your desire for DLB. [/QUOTE]


----------



## sdk009

123 pages of comments here, and other discussions going back to 2006. I think that proves this is an important issue with us DBSTalkers. This should be THE top priority with the techs at D*


----------



## GrumpyBear

Granted this is the 2nd if not the 3rd one of these forums about this subject, so it goes even further back than that.


----------



## puffnstuff

Sept 06 I believe ( for the HR's ) .


----------



## itzme

I've had my HR21 for a year now, along with my HR10. I kept thinking that I'll get over not having DLB. I haven't.


----------



## puffnstuff

itzme said:


> I've had my HR21 for a year now, along with my HR10. I kept thinking that I'll get over not having DLB. I haven't.


I've got to say I feel the same way . Without it I feel the HR's are never going to live up to my expectations . I just wish I knew why they were never implemented , I know we will never find out , but to go from working on it , to not right now , to never , to could be done -something better . That the only reason I stayed . Now that I am finally out of contract , it still doesn't matter because no FIOS here , but oh well .


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> I don't even think its a nice as it requires me to do too much cleanup afterwards. The whole point of DLB is that I'm allowed to be lazy at the risk of sometimes screwing up my buffers and losing part of a show i don't really care about anyway. Now I have to care enough to go and delete shows afterwards. Too much work for TV.


The easiest DLB workaround at the moment is to simply start recording two programs and then toggle between the two with {PREV}. But yeah, it adds to your disk usage and you have to clean up when done .. which is why it's called a workaround.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> The easiest DLB workaround at the moment is to simply start recording two programs and then toggle between the two with {PREV}. But yeah, it adds to your disk usage and you have to clean up when done .. which is why it's called a workaround.


That assumes you know which two programs you will be watching. A lot of DLB is the "surfing" aspect. Many times when using DLB, the two programs you end up watching aren't the same two you started with.

But in the case of the NFL when watching two games, this works well provided you pad the end of each recording by 1-2 hours to ensure you don't miss the end of a game.


----------



## Doug Brott

sdk009 said:


> 123 pages of comments here, and other discussions going back to 2006. I think that proves this is an important issue with us DBSTalkers. This should be THE top priority with the techs at D*





puffnstuff said:


> Sept 06 I believe ( for the HR's ) .


Earlier than that if you count the R15s ..


----------



## Doug Brott

RCY said:


> That assumes you know which two programs you will be watching. A lot of DLB is the "surfing" aspect. Many times when using DLB, the two programs you end up watching aren't the same two you started with.
> 
> But in the case of the NFL when watching two games, this works well provided you pad the end of each recording by 1-2 hours to ensure you don't miss the end of a game.


Yes, and it's not the perfect solution .. It does work very well for the situation in which you described, though.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

sdk009 said:


> 123 pages of comments here, and other discussions going back to 2006. I think that proves this is an important issue with us DBSTalkers. This should be THE top priority with the techs at D*


As much as I want DLB, I'm not sure that it will be THE top priority. 

Sure it's a popular much wanted feature but I think business, which is what DirecTV is, will dictate the priorities.

Mike


----------



## swartzentruber

MicroBeta said:


> As much as I want DLB, I'm not sure that it will be THE top priority.
> 
> Sure it's a popular much wanted feature but I think business, which is what DirecTV is, will dictate the priorities.
> 
> Mike


 Well, maybe if customers finally start leaving because they believe DirecTv isn't listening to them, and want to go to a company that will, that might make it a priority. I'm with the others saying that after several years of no DLBs, I still HATE the DirecTv implementation of the live TV buffer. Honestly, the only thing holding me to DirecTv has been Sunday ticket, and with the escalating cost (including SF) and the poor state of me and my wife's teams, we are both seriously thinking of dropping Sunday Ticket, and with that, probably DirecTv.


----------



## Jhon69

swartzentruber said:


> Well, maybe if customers finally start leaving because they believe DirecTv isn't listening to them, and want to go to a company that will, that might make it a priority. I'm with the others saying that after several years of no DLBs, I still HATE the DirecTv implementation of the live TV buffer. Honestly, the only thing holding me to DirecTv has been Sunday ticket, and with the escalating cost (including SF) and the poor state of me and my wife's teams, we are both seriously thinking of dropping Sunday Ticket, and with that, probably DirecTv.


That maybe one of the many reasons the DirecTivo is coming back at the end of 2009.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

swartzentruber said:


> Well, maybe if customers finally start leaving because they believe DirecTv isn't listening to them, and want to go to a company that will, that might make it a priority. I'm with the others saying that after several years of no DLBs, I still HATE the DirecTv implementation of the live TV buffer. Honestly, the only thing holding me to DirecTv has been Sunday ticket, and with the escalating cost (including SF) and the poor state of me and my wife's teams, we are both seriously thinking of dropping Sunday Ticket, and with that, probably DirecTv.


Just so you know where I'm coming from, I wrote one of the letters in the first post of the original DLB thread. I did the research posted in the first DLB thread about which HD-DVRs do and don't have DLB. This has alway been an important issue for me.

With that said and speaking only for myself, I just can't justify leaving over a single feature.

Now with considerations of cost and other features I can see how someone could leave and there's nothing wrong that.

IMHO, I don't think there would be enough subs to bail because of DLB to make a difference.

Who knows, in time "something better" will come along and it actually might be something better. :grin:

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

I agree with Mike as much as I've vocalized how much I miss DLB. I've been a sub since 97 and at this point there's no viable option even though the local cable has put fiber across my front yard.

I just don't understand why it was omitted and why it's so hard to put back in.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

dennisj00 said:


> I just don't understand why it was omitted and why it's so hard to put back in.


Only Earl knows and they kidnapped him so we can never find out...


----------



## James Long

Earl and those who paid attention to his posts when all this turmoil began. 

BTW: If Earl were here he'd take issue with "put back in". DLB wasn't taken out. It just was never there.


----------



## dennisj00

The turmoil began long before I got here a little over a year ago. Since 'put back in' isn't worded properly, let me rephrase. . . I don't understand why it's taken them over two years to include the single feature that would make the HR2x series UNDISPUTEDLY the best HD DVR on the market!


----------



## txtommy

dennisj00 said:


> The turmoil began long before I got here a little over a year ago. Since 'put back in' isn't worded properly, let me rephrase. . . I don't understand why it's taken them over two years to include the single feature that would make the HR2x series UNDISPUTEDLY the best HD DVR on the market!


And, based on the number of posts, the feature that would also make the most DVR customers happy. My guess is that if the system was capable of doing DLB, it would have been done long ago. Most likely the hardware is not up to the task no matter what software is installed.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

If that was the case, the record and swap method would not be available to us.



txtommy said:


> And, based on the number of posts, the feature that would also make the most DVR customers happy. My guess is that if the system was capable of doing DLB, it would have been done long ago. Most likely the hardware is not up to the task no matter what software is installed.


----------



## txtommy

DC_SnDvl said:


> If that was the case, the record and swap method would not be available to us.


If that is the case, it would indicate that directv just doesn't care what their customers desire the most. It seems that with every software upgrade they add several new features that I never use rather than the one feature that, in my opinion, would most improve their service.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

txtommy said:


> And, based on the number of posts, the feature that would also make the most DVR customers happy. My guess is that if the system was capable of doing DLB, it would have been done long ago. Most likely the hardware is not up to the task no matter what software is installed.


DLB is nothing more than recording two shows at once. The HR2x does that. You can recording two things and watch a third. Hardware is not the issue.

I don't know if this still works but try this experiment.

Record any show and watch a different channel.
When the background recording stops wait a couple of minutes and then go to the guide.
In the guide go to the channel you were recording on and hit the record button.
If you don't wait too long to start the second recording, what you'll find is that the background tuner was still buffering that channel. If all goes well you will have the portion from the end of the previous recording to the begining of the new recording.

In other words it actually does DLB now if only for a couple of minutes. You just can't access it. 

BTW, this is nothing new. This has been discussed many, many times.

Mike


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Saying that could get lumped in with the people who use the T word, no matter how true it is. 



txtommy said:


> If that is the case, it would indicate that directv just doesn't care


----------



## Doug Brott

txtommy said:


> If that is the case, it would indicate that directv just doesn't care what their customers desire the most. It seems that with every software upgrade they add several new features that I never use rather than the one feature that, in my opinion, would most improve their service.


I'm sure that if it were as simple as flipping a switch, DLB would already be in the HR2x. As it stands now, there are a number of workarounds that lessen the pain.


----------



## MX727

James Long said:


> Earl and those who paid attention to his posts when all this turmoil began.
> 
> BTW: If Earl were here he'd take issue with "put back in". DLB wasn't taken out. It just was never there.


Well, I agree, but that was an argument in semantics for him. To most, the product we are talking about is just another incarnation of D*'s HD satellite tuner with DVR capabilities. Most, outside of the Nerd Herd could care less what model number is on the tag.

As we all know, D* blew it. Their upgrade from the previous SD and HD DVRs left out a major feature, which nearly everyone has used or benefited from, even if they didn't realize it. D* just did not know their customers or understand how the the previous devices were used.

There have been many comparisons to other products, but maybe the simplest would be how people would feel if Windows 7 comes out we found out that you could only have one program running at a time. Once you switch to another window, all previous windows close. So, in the "World According to Earl," multi-tasking wouldn't have been removed from Windows 7.


----------



## txtommy

Doug Brott said:


> *I'm sure that if it were as simple as flipping a switch, DLB would already be in the HR2x.* As it stands now, there are a number of workarounds that lessen the pain.


Pretty much what I said in post #3081. If the item considered to be the #1 upgrade by the most customers were possible with the current hardware, it would have taken priority and already been done. All the other changes and improvements are just a distraction from what customers want the most. As far as workarounds go, if I have to push more than a couple buttons, the feature is not practical. If it requires more than pushing 'PREV' it is not DLB. I could always hook up two receivers and use the tv input button but that is not the same thing either. A workaround is not a solution.


----------



## txtommy

MX727 said:


> Well, I agree, but that was an argument in semantics for him. To most, the product we are talking about is just another incarnation of D*'s HD satellite tuner with DVR capabilities. Most, outside of the Nerd Herd could care less what model number is on the tag.
> 
> As we all know, D* blew it. Their upgrade from the previous SD and HD DVRs left out a major feature, which nearly everyone has used or benefited from, even if they didn't realize it. D* just did not know their customers or understand how the the previous devices were used.
> 
> There have been many comparisons to other products, but maybe the simplest would be how people would feel if Windows 7 comes out we found out that you could only have one program running at a time. Once you switch to another window, all previous windows close. So, in the "World According to Earl," multi-tasking wouldn't have been removed from Windows 7.


Exactly! I've been with Directv for 13 years. In the past I had receivers with DLB capabilities. I don't know who made the receivers or the model numbers and don't care. When you open your refrigerator door all you care about is that the food is cold; not the brand name nor the model number. All I know is that certain Directv receivers had the feature and it was used heavily. New receivers don't have the feature. The fact that my current receiver never had the feature is a design flaw, either intentional or accidental. If I have to use a workaround, that is a design flaw. Directv used to offer DLB and now they do not.


----------



## Doug Brott

MX727 said:


> Well, I agree, but that was an argument in semantics for him. To most, the product we are talking about is just another incarnation of D*'s HD satellite tuner with DVR capabilities. Most, outside of the Nerd Herd could care less what model number is on the tag.
> 
> As we all know, D* blew it. Their upgrade from the previous SD and HD DVRs left out a major feature, which nearly everyone has used or benefited from, even if they didn't realize it. D* just did not know their customers or understand how the the previous devices were used.
> 
> There have been many comparisons to other products, but maybe the simplest would be how people would feel if Windows 7 comes out we found out that you could only have one program running at a time. Once you switch to another window, all previous windows close. So, in the "World According to Earl," multi-tasking wouldn't have been removed from Windows 7.


HR10-250 == TiVo

HR2x == DIRECTV Firmware

Perhaps it is semantics to you, but it's not like Vista --> Windows 7 .. a more appropriate analogy would be that you moved from Vista to a MAC and the MAC only ran one program at a time (just an example folks )

The fact remains that the DIRECTV Firmware has never had DLB .. We are closer today than it has ever been.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> The fact remains that the DIRECTV Firmware has never had DLB .. We are closer today than it has ever been.


I just click my heels and say "baby steps...baby steps...":lol:


----------



## Que

Doug Brott said:


> HR10-250 == TiVo
> 
> HR2x == DIRECTV Firmware
> 
> Perhaps it is semantics to you, but it's not like Vista --> Windows 7 .. a more appropriate analogy would be that you moved from Vista to a MAC and the MAC only ran one program at a time (just an example folks )


...but that is only if they called the MAC Vista2. I think were people see it as a upgrade/downgrade is in the model number HR10 and HR2x. You think it was the same thing but, it's not at all.


----------



## Doug Brott

txtommy said:


> Pretty much what I said in post #3081. If the item considered to be the #1 upgrade by the most customers were possible with the current hardware, it would have taken priority and already been done. All the other changes and improvements are just a distraction from what customers want the most.


You're looking at the small picture (I'm not saying this as a negative, BTW) .. There are bigger issues for DIRECTV to deal with other than just the HR2x receiver. The HR2x is just a part of this bigger picture. Since DLB was not part of the HR2x from the beginning, it seems very plausible to me that a lot of behind the scenes things needed to be changed first .. even things that may not (on the surface) seem like they are related to DLB. It is clear to me that things are progressing.



txtommy said:


> As far as workarounds go, if I have to push more than a couple buttons, the feature is not practical. If it requires more than pushing 'PREV' it is not DLB. I could always hook up two receivers and use the tv input button but that is not the same thing either.


The following will not work in all situations, but the most recent workaround that was added seems really easy to me. I've found it to be beneficial to turn on (which takes seconds) to watch 2 NFL games at the same time (which lasts hours).

*Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #3*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Press {LIST} and play Show 2
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> Show 1 and Show 2 can be currently recording - you do not have to wait until they are complete
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x290 and above ..


Of course, to watch two "live" programs, you will have to start the recordings for each of these programs first and then play each of them from the list - the {R} key works well for that



txtommy said:


> A workaround is not a solution.


I've never said it was .. that's the whole point of calling it a workaround 

So, instead of "real" DLB which is:


Find Channel 1
swap tuners
Find Channel 2
Toggle

you do have


Find Channel 1
Record
Find Channel 2
Record
List
Play 1
List
Play 2
toggle

Nobody is denying that "real" DLB is better .. The workaround is a way that folks can do something to to use their receiver in a better way given the current limitations. As I said, I've found this method very usable. It takes (1) a very small amount of extra setup, (2) adequate disk space - which is never an issue with me, and (3) deleting 2 programs when you are finished.

There are ways to mimic other uses of DLB, but for someone truly bouncing around and doing channel surfing on 2 different tuners at the same time, the workarounds are not as helpful.


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> ...but that is only if they called the MAC Vista2. I think were people see it as a upgrade/downgrade is in the model number HR10 and HR2x. You think it was the same thing but, it's not at all.


No doubt, but last time I checked, the UI looks different, the HR2x doesn't say TiVo, etc. etc.

You may want to call the HR2x .. TiVo 2 .. but clearly it's not.


----------



## Lord Vader

txtommy said:


> And, based on the number of posts, the feature that would also make the most DVR customers happy. My guess is that if the system was capable of doing DLB, it would have been done long ago. Most likely the hardware is not up to the task no matter what software is installed.





> Pretty much what I said in post #3081. If the item considered to be the #1 upgrade by the most customers were possible with the current hardware, it would have taken priority and already been done.


No it wouldn't have, because DirecTV doesn't believe it is that high of a priority _*from their point of view.*_

Perhaps you ought to do a bit more reading here, because you would realize that hardware is NOT the issue. As has been stated numerous times, DLB is not available simply because DirecTV *chooses *not to make it available. They have the technical ability to do it; they just *choose *not to.


----------



## RCY

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> There are ways to mimic other uses of DLB, but for someone truly bouncing around and doing channel surfing on 2 different tuners at the same time, the workarounds are not as helpful.


This is the bottom line. As you said for someone watching two NFL games, it's easy enough to use the workaround. But for DLB surfing, the workaround really isn't practical.


----------



## Que

Doug Brott said:


> No doubt, the HR2x doesn't say TiVo, etc. etc.
> 
> You may want to call the HR2x .. TiVo 2 .. but clearly it's not.


Your right! Not everyone use Google to research a model number BEFORE opening the box. Just wish they could of gave it a different number.


----------



## jjohns

Two and a half years later and regular users with an honest question about DLB’s still can’t get a straight answer from D* regarding an important feature and why it was left out? I've never seen a mega-corp keep a secret that long.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> Your right! Not everyone use Google to research a model number BEFORE opening the box. Just wish they could of gave it a different number.


If they did it would have brought up a warning flag in several subscriber's minds.:eek2: !danger:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jhon69 said:


> If they did it would have brought up a warning flag in several subscriber's minds.:eek2: !danger:


I knew ahead of time that DLB was missing but decided that the upcomming HD was important to me. :grin:

Also, at the time, the word was that they were working on it. 

It was later that they decided not to do implement it....bummer...

Mike


----------



## sunking

James Long said:


> Earl and those who paid attention to his posts when all this turmoil began.
> 
> BTW: If Earl were here he'd take issue with "put back in". DLB wasn't taken out. It just was never there.


Oh no, not #1 fanboy take issue. Can't have that. Obviously his semantics take precedence over those paying customers who have lost functionality in their service. I'm not a subscriber for the hardware, I'm a subscriber for a service. One that no longer allows me to do what I used to be able to do. Fact of the matter was the HR series was rushed into production because of the mpeg4 launches. To meet deadlines they released a less than prime time product.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> Two and a half years later and regular users with an honest question about DLB's still can't get a straight answer from D* regarding an important feature and why it was left out? I've never seen a mega-corp keep a secret that long.


It's not a feature .. is that not straight enough? :scratchin


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> Oh no, not #1 fanboy take issue. Can't have that. Obviously his semantics take precedence over those paying customers who have lost functionality in their service. I'm not a subscriber for the hardware, I'm a subscriber for a service. One that no longer allows me to do what I used to be able to do. Fact of the matter was the HR series was rushed into production because of the mpeg4 launches. To meet deadlines they released a less than prime time product.


Do you have a source for those facts or are you simply stating what you think are the fact - or in other words .. your opinion.


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> Do you have a source for those facts or are you simply stating what you think are the fact - or in other words .. your opinion.


Oh, I'll grant you that I fell into a trap that I really hate myself, the over dramatization of opinion in wording. However, given the timing and issues of the initial release it's a logical conclusion that I'd bet a cup of coffee on being a pretty accurate asessment. This whole thread is nothing but speculation and nobody has ever offered anything else. Let's not get too pedantic. Nobody goes to jail here, so circumstantial evidence works for me.


----------



## James Long

Logical conclusions are fine but they are not the truth unless they were the truth to begin with.

The question was answered (why no DLB) but there are those who can't handle the truth ... and so we continue.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jjohns said:


> Two and a half years later and regular users with an honest question about DLB's still can't get a straight answer from D* regarding an important feature and why it was left out? I've *never seen a mega-corp keep a secret that long*.


I don't know if I would agree with that.

IMHO, it involves their overall system implimentation plan. If that's true there's very little chance they will reveal anything until they are ready.

Mega-corps guard their plans very carefully. Receivers are DirecTVs bread and butter so I can see them not saying anything that could be too revealing.

I guess you could argue that since it's been so long, there shouldn't be any impact on future features. I'm not so sure.

My 2¢. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> Oh, I'll grant you that I fell into a trap that I really hate myself, the over dramatization of opinion in wording. However, given the timing and issues of the initial release it's a logical conclusion that I'd bet a cup of coffee on being a pretty accurate asessment. This whole thread is nothing but speculation and nobody has ever offered anything else. Let's not get too pedantic. Nobody goes to jail here, so circumstantial evidence works for me.





James Long said:


> Logical conclusions are fine but they are not the truth unless they were the truth to begin with.
> 
> The question was answered (why no DLB) but there are those who can't handle the truth ... and so we continue.


Exactly .. Never had it .. Never ... ah, I'll never say never ...


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> I don't know if I would agree with that.
> 
> IMHO, it involves their overall system implimentation plan. If that's true there's very little chance they will reveal anything until they are ready.
> 
> Mega-corps guard their plans very carefully. Receivers are DirecTVs bread and butter so I can see them not saying anything that could be too revealing.
> 
> I guess you could argue that since it's been so long, there shouldn't be any impact on future features. I'm not so sure.
> 
> My 2¢. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Heck, I'm still trying to figure out who's hair-brained idea it was create "New Coke." Coke won't tell me ...


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly .. Never had it .. Never ... ah, I'll never say never ...


Never say never again ...
Could say more, but someone will just twist it into something more than is said.

No clues here ... move along ... move along.


----------



## kanderna

James Long said:


> Never say never again ...
> Could say more, but someone will just twist it into something more than is said.
> 
> No clues here ... move along ... move along.


Now that's just plain mean.  It's like you're poking us with a stick.


----------



## James Long

Like this?
:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Doug Brott said:


> It's not a feature .. is that not straight enough? :scratchin


It should be <nm>


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Look at it this way. DirecTV's first HD DVR product had DLB. DirecTV needed to bring out a new DVR product so that they could transmit with mpeg 4. The new DVR product does not have DLB.

Why do we have to get into a fight just because the first DVR product was not developed by DirecTV and the 2nd HD DVR product was "the first generation" HD DVR. 

It is just as correct to say that the HR20 is a replacement to the HR10. If we wanted more than 5 HD channels we needed to upgrade to the HR2x. The upgraded hardware does not have some of the features that our old hardware had.

If we had an HR10, we had DLB. If we upgraded to an HR2x, we no longer have DLB. We lost a core feature.

...waiting for the flames...


----------



## inkahauts

DC_SnDvl said:


> Look at it this way. DirecTV's first HD DVR product had DLB. DirecTV needed to bring out a new DVR product so that they could transmit with mpeg 4. The new DVR product does not have DLB.
> 
> Why do we have to get into a fight just because the first DVR product was not developed by DirecTV and the 2nd HD DVR product was "the first generation" HD DVR.
> 
> It is just as correct to say that the HR20 is a replacement to the HR10. If we wanted more than 5 HD channels we needed to upgrade to the HR2x. The upgraded hardware does not have some of the features that our old hardware had.
> 
> If we had an HR10, we had DLB. If we upgraded to an HR2x, we no longer have DLB. We lost a core feature.
> 
> ...waiting for the flames...


If only I could light a match and burn this whole thread...


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> If only I could light a match and burn this whole thread...


Or you could just skip it, then you wouldn't be exposed to criticism of D*.


----------



## jjohns

Doug Brott said:


> It's not a feature .. is that not straight enough? :scratchin


Oh no, that's not semantics is it? That proves the point as to why this issue has not been put to rest.

I'll play your silly game. And why was this [feature - or fill in the blank] [left out, not inserted - fill in the blank]?

Ya know what? Nevermind. I'm not going to get a reasonable answer, just a condescending smart-alec non-answer - so never mind.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> Oh no, that's not semantics is it? That proves the point as to why this issue has not been put to rest.
> 
> I'll play your silly game. And why was this [feature - or fill in the blank] [left out, not inserted - fill in the blank]?
> 
> Ya know what? Nevermind. I'm not going to get a reasonable answer, just a condescending smart-alec non-answer - so never mind.


So I say "It's not a feature" and that's me being a condescending smart-alec? Come on .. I stated a simple fact in the form of a question. Do you REALLY expect DIRECTV to issue a press release or call a news conference or heck even develop a commercial or a simple mailer that spells out why they don't have DLB?

Sure, you may want DIRECTV to give you all of the internal details but I could have told you two years ago that DIRECTV isn't going to do that .. In fact I'm sure Earl DID give you these details numerous times.

So riddle me this .. If DIRECTV does ever turn on DLB (remember the situation is actually better now than it was 2 years ago) are you still going to be demanding an answer as to why DLB isn't there today? I can let you know right now .. you're never going to get that answer.


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> If we had an HR10, we had DLB. If we upgraded to an HR2x, we no longer have DLB. We lost a core feature.


Yes, but it is just as correct to say that if you had an HR10 you had a TiVo and if you have an HR2x then you don't. Which is all I was pointing out. You didn't lose a feature because the HR2x never had it, not from day one.

But yes, it is fair to say that the HR2x does not have the same feature set as the HR10 .. which is what you are really trying to point out. It is just as fair to say that DLB is a highly desired feature .. evidenced here by this one thread. I don't think there is anyone that is suggesting that DLB is a feature that is unwanted or even unneeded.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly .. Never had it .. Never ... ah, I'll never say never ...





Doug Brott said:


> I can let you know right now .. you're never going to get that answer.


Never say you're never going to say never again.


----------



## jjohns

Doug Brott said:


> So I say "It's not a feature" and that's me being a condescending smart-alec? Come on .. I stated a simple fact in the form of a question. Do you REALLY expect DIRECTV to issue a press release or call a news conference or heck even develop a commercial or a simple mailer that spells out why they don't have DLB?
> 
> Sure, you may want DIRECTV to give you all of the internal details but I could have told you two years ago that DIRECTV isn't going to do that .. In fact I'm sure Earl DID give you these details numerous times.
> 
> So riddle me this .. If DIRECTV does ever turn on DLB (remember the situation is actually better now than it was 2 years ago) are you still going to be demanding an answer as to why DLB isn't there today? I can let you know right now .. you're never going to get that answer.


I said nevermind.


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> I said nevermind.


OK .. I didn't


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Never say you're never going to say never again.


This is such an interesting phrase?


----------



## jjohns

I wonder if the new Tivo-D* receiver will have DLB's?


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> I wonder if the new Tivo-D* receiver will have DLB's?


I don't see why it wouldn't .. But that's still more than a year away ..


----------



## ATARI

James Long said:


> Logical conclusions are fine but they are not the truth unless they were the truth to begin with.
> 
> The question was answered (why no DLB) but there are those who can't handle the truth ... and so we continue.


----------



## jjohns

Doug Brott said:


> I don't see why it wouldn't .. But that's still more than a year away ..


Great!


----------



## GrumpyBear

Doug Brott said:


> It's not a feature .. is that not straight enough? :scratchin


It is a Feature. Some can say its an unavailable. Some will argue, that its a MISSING FEATURE. 
You can't just say its not a Feature, when it was available once, and is available NOW, on most of the Competition, with more and more Competition adding the feature.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This strikes me as pure semantics. Here's what I'd like to see: 

With due respect, I would like to see posts on this topic that are neither simple rehashes of previously held positions nor semantic distractions. 

I think that somewhere under all of this there is a valid point: DIRECTV DVR users would like the functionality they once enjoyed with previous, obsolete hardware while still keeping the current HD programming they now enjoy. 

It also seems fairly well agreed upon that while there are workarounds, there are those who find those to be a deficient solution. 

Finally, I think that given the character of large corporations and their myriad needs, it is unlikely that DIRECTV will ever issue a detailed explanation of their programming philosophy to date, especially any reason why Dual Live Buffers were not included initially and are not yet available. Whether that reason is technical, philosophical, or both, I simply do not expect them to be so transparent.

Again, respectfully, I ask, what is there to be said on this topic that has not been said, approximately 3,127 times?


----------



## GrumpyBear

jjohns said:


> I wonder if the new Tivo-D* receiver will have DLB's?


The new DirectTV/Tivo box, will have DLB, just like the old DirectTV/Tivo Box's.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Bear, you assume facts not yet in evidence. There has been no press release or statement of any kind describing the feature set of the proposed device, other than that TiVo, Inc. will be developing it. 

At any rate, please confine all discussion of that press release to the appropriate thread.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Stuart Sweet said:


> This strikes me as pure semantics. Here's what I'd like to see:
> 
> With due respect, I would like to see posts on this topic that are neither simple rehashes of previously held positions nor semantic distractions.
> 
> I think that somewhere under all of this there is a valid point: DIRECTV DVR users would like the functionality they once enjoyed with previous, obsolete hardware while still keeping the current HD programming they now enjoy.
> 
> It also seems fairly well agreed upon that while there are workarounds, there are those who find those to be a deficient solution.
> 
> Finally, I think that given the character of large corporations and their myriad needs, it is unlikely that DIRECTV will ever issue a detailed explanation of their programming philosophy to date, especially any reason why Dual Live Buffers were not included initially and are not yet available. Whether that reason is technical, philosophical, or both, I simply do not expect them to be so transparent.
> 
> Again, respectfully, I ask, what is there to be said on this topic that has not been said, approximately 3,127 times?


It would be impractical for D* or any company to release internal documents on a company decision, that effects them and isn't lying and manipulating markets or stock price.

This thread and the Thread before are proof that this is a MISSING Feature, and D* has done lots of work, to come up with Workarounds, so they have to have some notion of the importance of this Missing Feature.
Lots of people will say this Forum and Forum's like this one, have kept the pressure on D* to fix issue.

More and more people are just coming here to vent and see WHY DLB is missing, as they have just recently lost thier DirectTV/Tivo units.
Telling all of these new people as well as some that have been mad since the begining to just drop it and live with it makes no sense. Just look at the improvements in the workaround as proof, that keeping this topic going is helping.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

The problem is if we went from HR10 to HR2x we did loose a core DVR feature. I don't care who wrote the code. The front of the box of both units says "DirecTV HD DVR" so I don't buy the line in the sand BS that we can't say they took DLB away from us because the HR20 was DirecTV's first HD DVR.

We had DLB and they got rid of it. I don't care why, I just want it back.



Doug Brott said:


> Yes, but it is just as correct to say that if you had an HR10 you had a TiVo and if you have an HR2x then you don't. Which is all I was pointing out. You didn't lose a feature because the HR2x never had it, not from day one.
> 
> But yes, it is fair to say that the HR2x does not have the same feature set as the HR10 .. which is what you are really trying to point out. It is just as fair to say that DLB is a highly desired feature .. evidenced here by this one thread. I don't think there is anyone that is suggesting that DLB is a feature that is unwanted or even unneeded.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

GrumpyBear said:


> It would be impractical for D* or any company to release internal documents on a company decision, that effects them and isn't lying and manipulating markets or stock price.


It would appear that we agree on that point.



> This thread and the Thread before are proof that this is a MISSING Feature, and D* has done lots of work, to come up with Workarounds, so they have to have some notion of the importance of this Missing Feature.
> Lots of people will say this Forum and Forum's like this one, have kept the pressure on D* to fix issue.


I am interested in your theory about how high demand on sites like these equates to DLB being a missing feature, as opposed to one that is strongly desired. Please, if you could, use a logical structure to show specifically how demand in the present day affects the fact that DLB was never part of the HR2x design spec and therefore while desirable, is not in fact missing; something that was never present can not be missing. If you like, please also correlate the assertion made by others that DLB is a core feature without which a DVR ceases to be a DVR, vis-a-vis the apparently incontrovertible fact that the HR2x is a DVR.



> More and more people are just coming here to vent and see WHY DLB is missing, as they have just recently lost thier DirectTV/Tivo units.


Please provide your basis for a wave of new visitors to this thread. 


> Telling all of these new people as well as some that have been mad since the begining to just drop it and live with it makes no sense. Just look at the improvements in the workaround as proof, that keeping this topic going is helping.


That is in fact the exact opposite of what I am asking. I am asking for someone, anyone, to reframe this discussion in a way that is not a simple retrenchment, restatement of past arguments, or semantic sidebar.


----------



## James Long

Doug Brott said:


> jjohns said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the new Tivo-D* receiver will have DLB's?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see why it wouldn't .. But that's still more than a year away ..
Click to expand...

Many can't see why the current HR2x DVRs don't have DLB either.
Not seeing a reason doesn't mean that the feature will be there.



DC_SnDvl said:


> The problem is if we went from HR10 to HR2x we did loose a core DVR feature.


If you go from a HR2x to a ViP-622/722 DVR you will get DLB back. Different receivers have different feature sets.

DLB is not a feature of the HR2x.


----------



## raott

James Long said:


> Different receivers have different feature sets.
> 
> DLB is not a feature of the HR2x.


True, but just about every dual tuner DVR has DLBs, the list has been rehashed many times. The HR2x is about the only one that doesn't.


----------



## Flyrx7

DC_SnDvl said:


> The problem is if we went from HR10 to HR2x we did loose a core DVR feature. I don't care who wrote the code. *The front of the box of both units says "DirecTV HD DVR" *so I don't buy the line in the sand BS that we can't say they took DLB away from us because the HR20 was DirecTV's first HD DVR.
> 
> We had DLB and they got rid of it. I don't care why, I just want it back.


EXACTLY!

The semantics argument is only there for someone to prove they're right. It's not a valid argument at all, IMHO, but it appears to make some people happy.

Since the original DLB unit is branded as a Directv piece of hardware, but made by Tivo is nearly the same thing as the HR2*'s being made by RCA, Pace, Samsung, etc.; the consumer most likely doesn't care WHO made the unit, they just want it to function correctly. That is why people feel like DLB was taken from them, the unit, regardless of mfg, still says "Directv" on the front and was provided by the same company, Directv.

Please, save the semantic rhetorts too, as it has been pointed out, they've been covered too, like just about everything else. That means that all is left is some sort of venting about why it's taking so long, as time is about the only thing (except meager workarounds) that has changed since the beginning of this topic.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Flyrx7 said:


> Please, save the semantic rhetorts too, as it has been pointed out, they've been covered too, like just about everything else. That means that all is left is some sort of venting about why it's taking so long, as time is about the only thing (except meager workarounds) that has changed since the beginning of this topic.


Frank, I think you and I are in complete agreement.


----------



## SDizzle

I believe we will see DLB on the HR2X series DVRs sooner....rather than later! We've been patient for over 2 years with this lineup of DVRs.....a little more waiting is not a big deal.


----------



## jjohns

SDizzle said:


> I believe we will see DLB on the HR2X series DVRs sooner....rather than later! We've been patient for over 2 years with this lineup of DVRs.....a little more waiting is not a big deal.


I am looking forward to it!
It sure will be nice to have the DLB [fill in the politcal correct word] again!


----------



## RCY

Flyrx7 said:


> ...
> That means that all is left is some sort of venting about why it's taking so long, as time is about the only thing (except meager workarounds) that has changed since the beginning of this topic.
> 
> Regards,
> Frank


I'd have to agree. But that's why there's an occasional flurry on this - some folks don't want this forgotten. Since the only way to keep the thread going is to post to it (even if repetitive), the current pattern is the inevitable result.


----------



## jjohns

Who cares whether its a "feature" versus "enhancement" or whether it is "back" or "never had it"? Not sure why anyone would want it debate it down to into an inquisition anyway.

The winds seem to be blowing in the direction that the new Tivo-D* box will have DLB's - and that is a good thing!


----------



## Que

Stuart Sweet said:


> Please provide your basis for a wave of new visitors to this thread.


I don't know what you count as wave but, we had 68 all Unique user vote in the last *25 *days. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1866958#post1866958

I like to post this on the 1st of the month but looks like a good time to do it now.

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *191 8.59%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 353 15.88% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 149 6.70%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1443 64.91%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 87 3.91%*
Voters: *2223*

Replies 3,140	
Views 118,019

Old DLB stats

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Que, if I may ask you, how many unique posters have posted in the last twenty-five days? How many of them were new posters? 

A quick look at the members list suggests 11,750 unique members visited DBSTalk since November 1st, of whom 68 felt it necessary to post in this thread, according to your post. That appears to be .5% of the unique registered visitors and approximately .0004% of the total registered subscribers. Do I have that wrong?


----------



## raott

I love the passive-aggressiveness on this site.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> It is a Feature. Some can say its an unavailable. Some will argue, that its a MISSING FEATURE.
> You can't just say its not a Feature, when it was available once, and is available NOW, on most of the Competition, with more and more Competition adding the feature.


 .. You got me there, but what you say is what I was attempting to convey (more or less) .. 

It's not a feature available on the HR2x platform.


----------



## jjohns

raott said:


> I love the passive-aggressiveness on this site.


Isn't it grand?


----------



## Doug Brott

DC_SnDvl said:


> The problem is if we went from HR10 to HR2x we did loose a core DVR feature. I don't care who wrote the code. The front of the box of both units says "DirecTV HD DVR" so I don't buy the line in the sand BS that we can't say they took DLB away from us because the HR20 was DirecTV's first HD DVR.
> 
> We had DLB and they got rid of it. I don't care why, I just want it back.


Either way, it's all semantics .. If you are still using your HR10, then you have DLB .. If you chose to get an HR2x (that never had DLB), then you don't have DLB. Certainly DIRECTV neglected to add this feature that you desire.


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> I love the passive-aggressiveness on this site.


It's not a discussion without two sides now is it  Besides, I like DLB and hope to see it one day.


----------



## jjohns

Doug Brott said:


> It's not a discussion without two sides now is it  Besides, I like DLB and hope to see it one day.


I believe the question at hand is "why" did D* not include it and we have determined that that is a well-kept secret.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet said:


> Que, if I may ask you, how many unique posters have posted in the last twenty-five days? How many of them were new posters?
> 
> A quick look at the members list suggests 11,750 unique members visited DBSTalk since November 1st, of whom 68 felt it necessary to post in this thread, according to your post. That appears to be .5% of the unique registered visitors and approximately .0004% of the total registered subscribers. Do I have that wrong?


Oh, and this brings up a favorite quote:



> I wasn't aware, Mr. Baris, that 12 Klingons constitutes a swarm.


----------



## kiljoy

While I disagree with your point, I can't find fault with your quote, Stuart.

Tony


----------



## Doug Brott

jjohns said:


> I believe the question at hand is "why" did D* not include it and we have determined that that is a well-kept secret.


To expect it to NOT be a well-kept secret is a mistake, IMHO. Regardless of the reason DIRECTV will not let us know why .. and "us" includes me, BTW. So sure ask the question .. I'll give you the same answer every time.

And yeah, I'd love it if the HR2x had DLB .. I've been very happy with the ability to use the workarounds. But even if those weren't available I watch virtually everything recorded .. near-Live TV News or sports programming are probably the only exceptions. The most recent DLB workaround is great for 2 sports programs.


----------



## Flyrx7

Stuart Sweet said:


> Que, if I may ask you, how many unique posters have posted in the last twenty-five days? How many of them were new posters?
> 
> A quick look at the members list suggests 11,750 unique members visited DBSTalk since November 1st, of whom 68 felt it necessary to post in this thread, according to your post. That appears to be .5% of the unique registered visitors and approximately .0004% of the total registered subscribers. Do I have that wrong?


I don't really think it matters how much you try to diminish the want of many by using numbers like those as comparison. This site, as you know, has 135,523 +/- threads of various topics to take part in, and the DLB one is only *one* of them. There's plenty of items to look at for those 11,000 different people. I think .5% is pretty good, afterall. Another way to put up 'fantastic' numbers is to say that this thread, 1 of 135,000, only represents .00074% of the total threads to post in. So of .0004% of the list population posts in .00074% of the theads, that means ......um, where was I going with this?

The fact of the matter is though, how many of those 135,000 + threads are 137 pages long or over 3100 posts? (not counting CE anticipation threads either) That doesn't even count the previous thread(s) concerning the lack of DLB.
That in itself should speak to the weight (or is it wait ) of the matter, I would think.

Frank


----------



## James Long

The top 10 posters in this thread have made 1243 of the 3153 posts so far.
The top 20 posters have made 1813 posts.

It seems that _some_ people are extremely interested in the topic.


----------



## jjohns

Doug Brott said:


> To expect it to NOT be a well-kept secret is a mistake, IMHO. Regardless of the reason DIRECTV will not let us know why .. and "us" includes me, BTW. So sure ask the question .. I'll give you the same answer every time.
> 
> And yeah, I'd love it if the HR2x had DLB .. I've been very happy with the ability to use the workarounds. But even if those weren't available I watch virtually everything recorded .. near-Live TV News or sports programming are probably the only exceptions. The most recent DLB workaround is great for 2 sports programs.


The secret is probably kept in a mayonaise jar somewhere in a dark room, not unlike how Mr. Krabs keeps his crabby patty recipe.


----------



## Doug Brott

James Long said:


> The top 10 posters in this thread have made 1243 of the 3153 posts so far.
> The top 20 posters have made 1813 posts.
> 
> It seems that _some_ people are extremely interested in the topic.


To expand on that:

287 unique posters
163 posters with 2 or more posts
118 w/3 or more
59 w/10 or more
34 w/25 or more
17 w/50 or more
11 w/75 or more
7 w/100 or more

.. And with this post, I'm one away from being tied for top poster ..


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> To expect it to NOT be a well-kept secret is a mistake, IMHO. Regardless of the reason DIRECTV will not let us know why .. and "us" includes me, BTW. So sure ask the question .. I'll give you the same answer every time.
> 
> And yeah, I'd love it if the HR2x had DLB .. I've been very happy with the ability to use the workarounds. But even if those weren't available I watch virtually everything recorded .. near-Live TV News or sports programming are probably the only exceptions. The most recent DLB workaround is great for 2 sports programs.


Come on now. this whole 'its a big super duper trade secret why we didnt do DLB' seems a bit far fetched. If it wasn't given on purpose then all you say is that it would conflict with something down the road. Problem is, for most of the things down the road it seems DLB would be a prereq. People are turning what probably is just a case of nobody at a big corporation caring enough to even bother with the question into a great big super duper trade secret in which is the key to the stock price. I still maintain the position that it was a feature dropped because of time constraints for the initial release. Because that doesn't look good they have decided to just completely ignore it altogether. Lets be real here, its one little feature on a single product line. I honestly don't believe that everyone who has been in any sort of meeting where DLB has been discussed was told that none of this info leaves the room.

Just my humble opinion.


----------



## veryoldschool

sunking said:


> I honestly don't believe that everyone who has been in any sort of meeting where DLB has been discussed was told that none of this info leaves the room.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.


The nice thing about an "opinion" is that it can be wrong, and/or changed later.


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> Come on now. this whole 'its a big super duper trade secret why we didnt do DLB' seems a bit far fetched. If it wasn't given on purpose then all you say is that it would conflict with something down the road. Problem is, for most of the things down the road it seems DLB would be a prereq. People are turning what probably is just a case of nobody at a big corporation caring enough to even bother with the question into a great big super duper trade secret in which is the key to the stock price. I still maintain the position that it was a feature dropped because of time constraints for the initial release. Because that doesn't look good they have decided to just completely ignore it altogether. Lets be real here, its one little feature on a single product line. I honestly don't believe that everyone who has been in any sort of meeting where DLB has been discussed was told that none of this info leaves the room.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.


Let's just say you are right about why DLB wasn't in the initial release .. what makes you think DIRECTV will make any kind of announcement that says that 

As for completely ignoring DLB, the workaround in the most recent release should be an indication that DLB is not forgotten .. progress is being made.


----------



## inkahauts

raott said:


> Or you could just skip it, then you wouldn't be exposed to criticism of D*.


Its not about seeing people criticizing Direct... Its the fact that most of the people that are criticizing Directv are simply winning and not saying anything that has any substance... I would love to see DLB come to the HR if for no other reason than to get rid of this thread... but it would make many people happy, so I see no reason philisopically for them to not add it...

But why people think that its their god given right to have this feature, instead of making an argument as to why it should be added is sorely lacking common sense...


----------



## raott

inkahauts said:


> Its not about seeing people criticizing Direct... Its the fact that most of the people that are criticizing Directv are simply winning and not saying anything that has any substance... I would love to see DLB come to the HR if for no other reason than to get rid of this thread... but it would make many people happy, so I see no reason philisopically for them to not add it...
> 
> But why people think that its their god given right to have this feature, instead of making an argument as to why it should be added is sorely lacking common sense...


The argument as to why it should be added has been made over and over. Its no surprise to me that those that criticize D* are whining in your eyes.


----------



## puffnstuff

inkahauts said:


> Its not about seeing people criticizing Direct... Its the fact that most of the people that are criticizing Directv are simply winning and not saying anything that has any substance... I would love to see DLB come to the HR if for no other reason than to get rid of this thread... but it would make many people happy, so I see no reason philisopically for them to not add it...
> 
> But why people think that its their god given right to have this feature, instead of making an argument as to why it should be added is sorely lacking common sense...


It's my god given right because I was lied to by Directv and this board . I did all of my research , called Directv , asked on this board and was told it's coming . Well I know things change but this is crap . What do they give us anything that let's them say " me too " to the cable companies .


----------



## bonscott87

sunking said:


> Come on now. this whole 'its a big super duper trade secret why we didnt do DLB' seems a bit far fetched. If it wasn't given on purpose then all you say is that it would conflict with something down the road. Problem is, for most of the things down the road it seems DLB would be a prereq. People are turning what probably is just a case of nobody at a big corporation caring enough to even bother with the question into a great big super duper trade secret in which is the key to the stock price. I still maintain the position that it was a feature dropped because of time constraints for the initial release. Because that doesn't look good they have decided to just completely ignore it altogether. Lets be real here, its one little feature on a single product line. I honestly don't believe that everyone who has been in any sort of meeting where DLB has been discussed was told that none of this info leaves the room.
> 
> Just my humble opinion.


What you and others don't understand is that there isn't a company on this planet that is going to put out a press release and say "hey, you know that feature that our competitors have and we don't (yea, we know most of you didn't know that), well now you do, we don't have it and this is why". So why do you and other think DirecTV would address this or has to? Please, do you live in the real world?


----------



## bonscott87

puffnstuff said:


> It's my god given right because I was lied to by Directv and this board . I did all of my research , called Directv , asked on this board and was told it's coming . Well I know things change but this is crap . What do they give us anything that let's them say " me too " to the cable companies .


Ummmm, DLB has never been a feature of the HR20 and it was never said it was "coming". If you listened to a CSR who has no clue what they are talking about then I'm sorry, but you learned your lesson to never listen to a CSR from any company, let alone DirecTV. 

Your 2 year commitment is probably up by now, head on over to Dish or something else that has DLB if it's that important to you. Or hang on to the thread that maybe someday it will be added or hope that the new Tivo unit will have it or that the next generation DirecTV DVR will have it. Your choice. Good luck!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> It's my god given right because I was lied to by Directv and this board . I did all of my research , called Directv , asked on this board and was told it's coming . Well I know things change but this is crap . What do they give us anything that let's them say " me too " to the cable companies .


I'm not sure I would call it being lied to.

DirecTV said they were looking into how to implement DLB.

Now does changing their mind mean they lied? Not in my opinion.



bonscott87 said:


> Ummmm, DLB has never been a feature of the HR20 and it was never said it was "coming". If you listened to a CSR who has no clue what they are talking about then I'm sorry, but you learned your lesson to never listen to a CSR from any company, let alone DirecTV.
> 
> Your 2 year commitment is probably up by now, head on over to Dish or something else that has DLB if it's that important to you. Or hang on to the thread that maybe someday it will be added or hope that the new Tivo unit will have it or that the next generation DirecTV DVR will have it. Your choice. Good luck!


Actually, DirecTV did say they were investigating the implementation of DLB.

From the following is some example of posts from the original DLB thread:


> because just over the last week, they started to discuss in more.... They are investigating the best method to implement a dual buffer scheme, that still fits into the model they have built for "their" DVR platform.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=642457&postcount=139



> That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=650398&postcount=169



> As of my last update on the issue, they are still identifying the best way to get the dual buffers in the system.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=664937&postcount=206

It was later that they changed their minds and decided not to implement DLB.

Earl related what he was being told. When the story changed....well I've already posted my opinions about that. 

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

I stand by my post. If anyone took that as a "promise" and nothing more then "we're checking into it" then frankly I've got some beach front property to sell in Colorado.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> I stand by my post. If anyone took that as a "promise" and nothing more then "we're checking into it" then frankly I've got some beach front property to sell in Colorado.


You did say that DirecTV "never said it was "coming"" which is true.

I was just pointing out that there was a time (seems so long ago now) that DirecTV indicated that they were working on finding a method to implement DLB.

You could take that fact that decided to tell us, through Earl, that they were working on it as indication that it was coming.

However, your are correct. It was encouraging but not a promise. :grin:

Mike


----------



## redrocker

Are we getting DLB's for our HR???? or do we have to wait till the end of 2009 with D*TiVo? Was that a promise?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

redrocker said:


> Are we getting DLB's for our HR???? or do we have to wait till the end of 2009 with D*TiVo? Was that a promise?


Maybe and don't know.

Sounds like a joke but I'm serious. Nobody knows.

Mike


----------



## redrocker

MicroBeta said:


> Maybe and don't know.
> 
> Sounds like a joke but I'm serious. Nobody knows.
> 
> Mike


Yeah Mike, I know what ya mean. I've been around long enough to figure out they (D*) just tell us what we want to hear and get our hopes up, just to shut us up for a while and seemingly, drag us around like a mindless blonde. No pun entended
I'm not leaving D* because there's nothing better for me but I wish they would just pay off whoever it is and give us what we want. They really need to get it together. Kinda like the Iphone not having copy/paste in my opinion. lol


----------



## Que

Que said:


> I don't know what you count as wave but, we had 68 all Unique user vote in the last *25 *days. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1866958#post1866958
> 
> I like to post this on the 1st of the month but looks like a good time to do it now.
> 
> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *191 8.59%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 353 15.88% *
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 149 6.70%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1443 64.91%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 87 3.91%*
> Voters: *2223*
> 
> Replies 3,140
> Views 118,019
> 
> Old DLB stats
> 
> A must have! *2836 77.66%*
> Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
> Voters: 3652.
> 
> Replies 2,965
> *Views 146,826*


I think it's 68 users that are hit and runs. They Google "swap tuners" or "change to the other tuner" to find out what they are doing wrong. Just to find out that it's not an option on this new DVR . I'm sure their are people that find the site by Google but, never sign up. Their could be old users that never vote but, I bet it's mostly new users.

Even if it is a small number...2.72 new users that finds this thread and vote each day. They would just add DLB. Maybe in time they will... In the end I think they will have to have it.


----------



## OneOfOne

dlb isnt necessary. if it comes back with the new tivo dvr then fine. this just shows that there are a LOT of whiners who are directv customers. just like in all other aspects of life. its a shame weve become this way as a society. its just tv people.


----------



## redrocker

OneOfOne said:


> dlb isnt necessary. if it comes back with the new tivo dvr then fine. this just shows that there are a LOT of whiners who are directv customers. just like in all other aspects of life. its a shame weve become this way as a society. its just tv people.


If DLB's arn't necessary then why do the vast majority of subs want them back? You are in the minority group if you don't need them. I see you have a rather alaberate collection of home theatre equipment that looks like you have gotten all you could get out of by pro. cal. and making players region free...That's what we want from our DVR's...all we can get out of them. I would'nt call it whining at all. Oh, and as far as other aspects of life...How would you know??


----------



## OneOfOne

redrocker said:


> If DLB's arn't necessary then why do the vast majority of subs want them back? You are in the minority group if you don't need them. I see you have a rather alaberate collection of home theatre equipment that looks like you have gotten all you could get out of by pro. cal. and making players region free...That's what we want from our DVR's...all we can get out of them. I would'nt call it whining at all. Oh, and as far as other aspects of life...How would you know??


why waste time arguing something that isn't being argued? the fact is no one 'needs' dlb. period.oh, and since most directv subscribers don't post on this site how would you know what the minority view is? and I don't know what the non word 'alaberate' is so I can only guess you meant to say elaborate. you aren't deep enough to understand why tv isn't important so please, don't try to refer about anyone's knowledge or lack thereof about aspects of life. you should be embarrassed but hey its the internet so anyone can spew, right? my original post isn't a troll and this reply isn't either. so drop your righteousness and anything else you may have to say about my post and focus on the thread.


----------



## Lord Vader

OneOfOne said:


> why waste time arguing something that isn't being argued? the fact is no one 'needs' dlb. period.oh, and since most directv subscribers don't post on this site how would you know what the minority view is? and I don't know what the non word 'alaberate' is so I can only guess you meant to say elaborate. you aren't deep enough to understand why tv isn't important so please, don't try to refer about anyone's knowledge or lack thereof about aspects of life. you should be embarrassed but hey its the internet so anyone can spew, right? my original post isn't a troll and this reply isn't either. so drop your righteousness and anything else you may have to say about my post and focus on the thread.


If one is going to correct another's misspellings or misuse of a word, then one ought to learn that "internet" is capitalized, that sentences begin with capitalized words, that "tv" is a capitalized abbreviation, and that, among other things, the word is "self-righteousness" and not "righteousness."


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Ok, no more arguing. Time to get back to discussing DLB. 

:backtotop 

Mike


----------



## redrocker

He no doubt used spell check anyway, on that one word. Regardless, he is proud of his electrnics.


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks, this isn't a spelling contest to see who can get the most words "right." Either talk DLB or move on ...


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I 2nd.

This should not be a place to attack others because they don't see the utility in having DLB or for being proud of what equipment they have and how it is set up.

No, we don't need DLB, we want it back.

No, we don't need DVR's, we want them.



Doug Brott said:


> Folks, this isn't a spelling contest to see who can get the most words "right." Either talk DLB or move on ...


----------



## redrocker

Doug Brott said:


> Folks, this isn't a spelling contest to see who can get the most words "right." Either talk DLB or move on ...


 ok, I apologize. I'm all in for moving forward.


----------



## ghfiii

MicroBeta said:


> It was later that they changed their minds and decided not to implement DLB.
> 
> Earl related what he was being told. When the story changed....well I've already posted my opinions about that.
> 
> Mike


I'll bite, post the link to your opinions please.

Pretty Please, I cannot find the post...don't leave me hangin' man. :grin:


----------



## Que

ghfiii said:


> I'll bite, post the link to your opinions please.
> 
> Pretty Please, I cannot find the post...don't leave me hangin' man. :grin:


My opinion is that it will conflict with another feature (D* spam, an update or some upcoming feature) Most it's still trial and error with them. I can only hope that the TiVo deal will get them the data/people they need to fit it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ghfiii said:


> I'll bite, post the link to your opinions please.
> 
> Pretty Please, I cannot find the post...don't leave me hangin' man. :grin:


My basic theory...They're so far into developement that implementing DLB could adverserly impact the current features that rely on the buffers/tuners. That and in the new feature sets there is "something better" comming. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1513648&postcount=928

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1563909&postcount=1489

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1569154&postcount=1519

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1629577&postcount=1822

It's a theory. 

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Que said:


> *My opinion is that it will conflict with another feature *(D* spam, an update or some upcoming feature) Most it's still trial and error with them. I can only hope that the TiVo deal will get them the data/people they need to fit it.


My thoughts exactly! 

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Que said:


> My opinion is that it will conflict with another feature (D* spam, an update or some upcoming feature) Most it's still trial and error with them. I can only hope that the TiVo deal will get them the data/people they need to fit it.





MicroBeta said:


> My basic theory...They're so far into developement that implementing DLB could adverserly impact the current features that rely on the buffers/tuners. That and in the new feature sets there is "something better" comming.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1513648&postcount=928
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1563909&postcount=1489
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1569154&postcount=1519
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1629577&postcount=1822
> 
> It's a theory.
> 
> Mike





MicroBeta said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> 
> Mike


Again, there are no technical reasons why DLB has not been implemented. DirecTV has simply *chosen *not to implement it.


----------



## GrumpyBear

They sure have worked hard, on coming up with work arounds though.


----------



## dennisj00

They have implemented some things that help the workarounds, but it's been dbstalk members / mods that have developed and promoted the workarounds.

Like I've said many times, just make the down arrow switch between two live buffers. It can't be that hard!!


----------



## puffnstuff

So has anybody heard anymore about this " something better " ? I sure hope it comes soon ( not Directv soon , I mean soon in the real sense ) it's been many months and still not a peep , it must be really awesome since it's taking them so long .


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Probably not going to happen anytime soon with the cuts they are making in spending.



puffnstuff said:


> So has anybody heard anymore about this " something better " ? I sure hope it comes soon ( not Directv soon , I mean soon in the real sense ) it's been many months and still not a peep , it must be really awesome since it's taking them so long .


----------



## Richierich

I heard a rumor that "Something Better Is Just Around The Corner"!!!


----------



## Lord Vader

That rumor has been "around the corner" for some time.


----------



## James Long

Not really. The rumor has been here for a while ... it is something better that is yet to come.


----------



## Richierich

Yes but sometimes it takes a LONG TIME to get around the corner!!! :lol:


----------



## puffnstuff

DC_SnDvl said:


> Probably not going to happen anytime soon with the cuts they are making in spending.


Why would that be , did they fire all the programers ?


----------



## sunking

richierich said:


> I heard a rumor that "Something Better Is Just Around The Corner"!!!


We seem to be driving on a circular road.


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> We seem to be driving on a circular road.


Wow, you're right .. I hadn't noticed that


----------



## kanderna

sunking said:



> We seem to be driving on a circular road.


:lol: More like this: 




We can see it, we just can't get to it. Can't get left!


----------



## Oblong Desoto

Maybe the "something better" is in the new TiVo/DirecTV joint development, and "around the corner" means Summer 2009?

I switched to Dish to get DLB back in May, and it has been a mostly positive experience. But if DirecTV ever gets this all worked out, I may be tempted to return. 

That Charlie character running Dish worries me! :eek2: 

-OD


----------



## James Long

Didn't you know? Charlie's buying Tivo and will be designing the new DirecTV Tivo.
The press release should be out 'soon'.


----------



## Richierich

Sorry but you guys can't talk about TIVO in this thread or you will be BANISHED to DISH!!!


----------



## James Long

My MPEG4 receiver has DLB. 

Perhaps being banished to DISH isn't such a bad thing? 

(Sorry for the interruption ... back to the eternal anticipation.)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> My MPEG4 receiver has DLB.
> 
> Perhaps being banished to DISH isn't such a bad thing?
> 
> (Sorry for the interruption ... back to the eternal anticipation.)


Well goodie for you. :grin:

We'll get it...in some form...or "something better"...soon-ish...probably. 

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

James Long said:


> Didn't you know? Charlie's buying Tivo and will be designing the new DirecTV Tivo.
> The press release should be out 'soon'.


Yeah, it's "around the corner."


----------



## RCY

James Long said:


> My MPEG4 receiver has DLB.
> 
> Perhaps being banished to DISH isn't such a bad thing?
> 
> (Sorry for the interruption ... back to the eternal anticipation.)


If D* can't get this done by the time my SD boxes die, Dish is a definite possiblity.


----------



## luckydob

RCY said:


> If D* can't get this done by the time my SD boxes die, Dish is a definite possiblity.


Not happening...ever. Period. Nada. Zilch. Zero chance. If there was a chance it would be here already. BUT we have useless things like DOD and support for 8 remotes.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

luckydob said:


> Not happening...ever. Period. Nada. Zilch. Zero chance. If there was a chance it would be here already. BUT we have useless things like DOD and support for 8 remotes.


So all you're basing this on is that we should have it by now if we were ever going to get it? Any actual proof??


----------



## JBernardK

Did D* ever announce the thing that was supposed to better than DLB?


----------



## Richierich

JBernardK said:


> Did D* ever announce the thing that was supposed to better than DLB?


Yes and it is on the way!!! You should have it at any time so keep holding your breath!!!

Oh my GOD you are turning BLUE!!!

I can't believe you didn't get it!!!


----------



## GrumpyBear

JBernardK said:


> Did D* ever announce the thing that was supposed to better than DLB?


Yes it was called a rock in the pond, or a noise in the bush.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> Did D* ever announce the thing that was supposed to better than DLB?


No


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Doug Brott said:


> No


Is it still expected?


----------



## Doug Brott

AirRocker said:


> Is it still expected?


The status has not changed ..


----------



## bobcamp1

It's funny, my friend turned in his DirecTivo for an HR-21, and he prefers everything about the HR-21 except for one feature. He then took three minutes to describe the DLB function. I told him to not hold his breath. He didn't understand why the newer DVR wouldn't have a feature the older DVR did, and he didn't realize how much he would miss it.

His stance is "workaround is OK but could get annoying".


----------



## RCY

bobcamp1 said:


> It's funny, my friend turned in his DirecTivo for an HR-21, and he prefers everything about the HR-21 except for one feature. He then took three minutes to describe the DLB function. I told him to not hold his breath. He didn't understand why the newer DVR wouldn't have a feature the older DVR did, and he didn't realize how much he would miss it.
> 
> His stance is "workaround is OK but could get annoying".


My wife and kids have no clue what DLB means, but they use it everyday.


----------



## webby_s

James Long said:


> My MPEG4 receiver has DLB.
> 
> Perhaps being banished to DISH isn't such a bad thing?
> 
> (Sorry for the interruption ... back to the eternal anticipation.)


You know what, I have this set up on my tvs, meaning I have two HR's to both of my main viewing areas and I don't use it for this purpose (DLB) but I will do an internal household poll and see if it ever would be used as this. I never thought of it. But I will see if I really NEED it or not. I did miss it for a little bit going from the Moxi to D* but now that I hardly ever watch live TV (except for sports) I don't have a need.

Now don't get me wrong, I think DLB is needed and should be an option. It goes back to... "they had it on the old DVR's they should have it on the newer ones" Meaning don't take something away if we had it and used it.

Their, there is my contribution to the thread. Good luck to all that want it, I do hope we get it but I have a work around so keep :beatdeadhorse: so :whatdidid whatever.


----------



## Flyrx7

I can only think of the aggravation that would be saved by having DLB for those "inadvertant" channel changes. There is nothing I hate worse than rewinding a buffered tuner to catch the begining of some show, only to have the remote tumble out of my hands and landing on another channel, wiping my buffer.
In the old days it wasn't an issue, just hit the down arrow and get right back to where you were. Now days when that happens you just have to find something else to watch, because you aint' getting that buffer back.

That in itself would make DLB pay for itself (not that I'm advocating a fee associated with DLB.....)

Frank


----------



## Lord Vader

If you drop the remote and it accidentally turns to another channel, you will lose the buffer on the channel you had just been watching, unless the remote accidentally changed TUNERS, which may be even more difficult to achieve, because there's usually only one way to change tuners but several ways to change channels.


----------



## DogLover

Actually, on my old DirecTivo SAT-T60, every channel change changed tuners. So in that case, that dVr would have worked just like Flyrx7 said. It always bufferred the last 2 channels, no matter how you changed them.


----------



## sunking

DogLover said:


> Actually, on my old DirecTivo SAT-T60, every channel change changed tuners. So in that case, that dVr would have worked just like Flyrx7 said. It always bufferred the last 2 channels, no matter how you changed them.


On the 250 that certainly isn't how it worked. It required you to tell it to change tuners, assuming you aren't recording something. This is much better as it allows you to stay tuned and channel surf on the other tuner to your hearts content. Any other way seems horrible for the constant surfer.


----------



## DogLover

sunking said:


> On the 250 that certainly isn't how it worked. It required you to tell it to change tuners, assuming you aren't recording something. This is much better as it allows you to stay tuned and channel surf on the other tuner to your hearts content. Any other way seems horrible for the constant surfer.


I can see benefits to both ways. The T60 was friendlier for accidental channel changes, but if you were watching 1 program, and surfing during the commercial, you had to always go back to the main channel between changes.

I would think that the T60 was the easier way to program as an add-on. When it first came out, it only had 1 tuner enabled. I had it for several months before they enabled tuner 2, so DLB obviously wasn't available when there was only 1 tuner.


----------



## sunking

DogLover said:


> I would think that the T60 was the easier way to program as an add-on. When it first came out, it only had 1 tuner enabled. I had it for several months before they enabled tuner 2, so DLB obviously wasn't available when there was only 1 tuner.


This seems like crazy talk. There is no way that DLB is something that can be added after a product has been released without completely screwing up the basic functionality of the DVR and possibly creating a worm hole that will engulf the entire planet. No way I say. Just look at Directv


----------



## DogLover

sunking said:


> This seems like crazy talk. There is no way that DLB is something that can be added after a product has been released without completely screwing up the basic functionality of the DVR and possibly creating a worm hole that will engulf the entire planet. No way I say. Just look at Directv


Just call me crazy!:lol:


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> The status has not changed ..


So it is "something better than DLB", and it is "coming soon"!:lol:


----------



## KSbugeater

On the HR10-250, if you are not live (i.e. delayed and therefore somewhere in the 30 min. buffer), a channel change will go to the other tuner, therefore preserving the buffer on the 1st tuner. Except, I think if the 2nd tuner is also paused (as it is often at my house, especially on Saturdays and Sundays when multiple live sporting events are on), then it will stay on the 1st tuner to make the channel change.

I do like the fact that on the HR2x that invalid channel requests are ignored. That saves some of the finger fumbles, as generally only a few of the single digit channels are valid for a given DMA. HR10 will go to any old channel if you accidentally press a number key.

Having said all that, DLB rules. Wouldn't want anyone to be unclear on my stance...


----------



## Doug Brott

mikewolf13 said:


> So it is "something better than DLB", and it is "coming soon"!:lol:


To be fair, I don't think anyone ever said "coming soon"


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> On the 250 that certainly isn't how it worked. It required you to tell it to change tuners, assuming you aren't recording something. This is much better as it allows you to stay tuned and channel surf on the other tuner to your hearts content. Any other way seems horrible for the constant surfer.


You still flushed one of those buffers in that scenario ..


----------



## Richierich

Well then Doug, what IS COMING that is BETTER than DLB???


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> You still flushed one of those buffers in that scenario ..


Errr...of course you are. But only one. In the other scenario if you change the channel 2 times you've flushed both buffers. Which really sucks if you just decide to channel surf while the ball game is between innings. The whole point is that you are watching one thing that you don't want to bother recording, but is more important than the other things that are on. This is a much more frequent case than having the dog randomly lay down on the remote and change channels.


----------



## mikewolf13

Doug Brott said:


> To be fair, I don't think anyone ever said "coming soon"


That's fair..."coming soon" was not said..


----------



## Lord Vader

KSbugeater said:


> On the HR10-250, if you are not live (i.e. delayed and therefore somewhere in the 30 min. buffer), a channel change will go to the other tuner, therefore preserving the buffer on the 1st tuner.


Didn't work that way on mine, as I just tried it. In order to go to the other tuner, I had to press the down direction arrow. Entering a channel number or using the channel up/down button flushed the buffer while taking me to that new channel.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Lord Vader said:


> If you drop the remote and it accidentally turns to another channel, you will lose the buffer on the channel you had just been watching, unless the remote accidentally changed TUNERS, which may be even more difficult to achieve, because there's usually only one way to change tuners but several ways to change channels.


Actually a good DVR with DLB wont just change the channel, if you are watching a show delayed. It will pop up a window asking you you really want to switch to Live mode before making the change. So dropping the remote wouldn't be an issue. It also automatically starts a recording on the 2nd buffer, if you are watching something on the other buffer, that is delayed, seamlessly, and you never lose the buffer, unless you do it on purpose.


----------



## sunking

Lord Vader said:


> Didn't work that way on mine, as I just tried it. In order to go to the other tuner, I had to press the down direction arrow. Entering a channel number or using the channel up/down button flushed the buffer while taking me to that new channel.


My memory seems to agree with this. The half hour thing simply seems a bit complex and confusing. This would have caused havoc with me as I often have watched something for more than 30m and utilized DLB sometime after. I think this is a case where KISS wins out.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> Actually a good DVR with DLB wont just change the channel, if you are watching a show delayed. It will pop up a window asking you you really want to switch to Live mode before making the change. So dropping the remote wouldn't be an issue. It also automatically starts a recording on the 2nd buffer, if you are watching something on the other buffer, that is delayed, seamlessly, and you never lose the buffer, unless you do it on purpose.


TiVo doesn't do this, BTW .. Do any DVRs that have DLB ask before changing the channel/tuner? I thought that was the whole point .. that it didn't ask.


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo doesn't do this, BTW .. Do any DVRs that have DLB ask before changing the channel/tuner? I thought that was the whole point .. that it didn't ask.


Exactly, if you want this type of control just record the thing. The idea of DLB is that you have something simple that satisfys your needs 99% of the time. For that extra 1% just record it. By hitting the up arrow I'm already confirming that yes I want to go to the other buffer. no buffers are cleared by doing this, so if you hit it by mistake you just it again to get back. Or punch in the channel again to get back. That's actually what I liked about DLB. If the other tuner is on the channel you just changed to you don't lose any buffers. It just swaps tuners, losing neither.


----------



## GrumpyBear

ViP series, will do this. I will sometimes create a 5 second buffer, if I know I will be in and out of the room. That way if somebody comes into the room, and tries to change the channel they get a message about changing to live mode. Instead of changing the channel they will just press the swap button, to the other tuner instead. That way I don't lose my show, and when I comeback to the room, I can swap back. The tuner I had with the 5 sec delay, is still running with its 5sec delay and an hr buffer still if I want to rewind it.
So a single button swap, life is easy. If you want to make sure that nothing happens on the buffer while you are trying to catch up, a little pop up that asks you 1st. If you need to change the channel faster, just press swap.


----------



## sunking

GrumpyBear said:


> ViP series, will do this. I will sometimes create a 5 second buffer, if I know I will be in and out of the room. That way if somebody comes into the room, and tries to change the channel they get a message about changing to live mode. Instead of changing the channel they will just press the swap button, to the other tuner instead. That way I don't lose my show, and when I comeback to the room, I can swap back. The tuner I had with the 5 sec delay, is still running with its 5sec delay and an hr buffer still if I want to rewind it.
> So a single button swap, life is easy. If you want to make sure that nothing happens on the buffer while you are trying to catch up, a little pop up that asks you 1st. If you need to change the channel faster, just press swap.


Ok, I have to say that's a pretty good implementation, although I think it would get annoying for those people who are new to it and don't really understand things like number of tuners and DLB. It does however show that DLB is not just some afterthought that just happened to fall out of making a DVR, it was an actual funtional requirement. At least for companies other than Directv.


----------



## ATARI

sunking said:


> It does however show that DLB is not just some afterthought that just happened to fall out of making a DVR, it was an actual funtional requirement. At least for companies other than Directv.


Well said.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> ViP series, will do this. I will sometimes create a 5 second buffer, if I know I will be in and out of the room. That way if somebody comes into the room, and tries to change the channel they get a message about changing to live mode. Instead of changing the channel they will just press the swap button, to the other tuner instead. That way I don't lose my show, and when I comeback to the room, I can swap back. The tuner I had with the 5 sec delay, is still running with its 5sec delay and an hr buffer still if I want to rewind it.
> So a single button swap, life is easy. If you want to make sure that nothing happens on the buffer while you are trying to catch up, a little pop up that asks you 1st. If you need to change the channel faster, just press swap.


And instead of having to do all this, with the DirecTV DVR+ we have to press"R" and record it.I'll take the record option.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Do all what? push pause for 5 seconds during a commerical?
I have never understood the idea of having to record what I am watching, isn't that why systems have built in 30/60/90 minute buffers?

Use the 60 or 90 minute buffer? NO that is crazy, forget the buffer, its included and a cool feature, its pushed in all the marketing material, but your crazy to use it. RECORD what you are watching thats the ticket. Don't pause and then skip through commericals, record the live show, yes record the very show you are watching, and then go back and delete 3hrs of TV you just watched. Yes that makes more sense, and alot more effiecent and less steps to record, and go back in and delete the recording, after you just watched it. Very hard to hit the pause button, a very complicated process. Granted you get much more flexiblity with the pause button and DLB. Heck you can even pause and rewind 2 different shows.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> Do all what? push pause for 5 seconds during a commerical?
> I have never understood the idea of having to record what I am watching, isn't that why systems have built in 30/60/90 minute buffers?
> 
> Use the 60 or 90 minute buffer? NO that is crazy, forget the buffer, its included and a cool feature, its pushed in all the marketing material, but your crazy to use it. RECORD what you are watching thats the ticket. Don't pause and then skip through commericals, record the live show, yes record the very show you are watching, and then go back and delete 3hrs of TV you just watched. Yes that makes more sense, and alot more effiecent and less steps to record, and go back in and delete the recording, after you just watched it. Very hard to hit the pause button, a very complicated process. Granted you get much more flexiblity with the pause button and DLB. Heck you can even pause and rewind 2 different shows.


I believe if DirecTV can give us dual 90 minute buffers with the DirecTV DVR+ then they should go for it.But If not then they should let it be,because I'm pretty sure the new HD DirecTivo will have this feature.But at what cost?.Will the live buffers be 90 minutes or 60,when it comes to the live buffer more is definitely better.:sure:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> Do all what? push pause for 5 seconds during a commerical?
> I have never understood the idea of having to record what I am watching, isn't that why systems have built in 30/60/90 minute buffers?
> 
> Use the 60 or 90 minute buffer? NO that is crazy, forget the buffer, its included and a cool feature, its pushed in all the marketing material, but your crazy to use it. RECORD what you are watching thats the ticket. Don't pause and then skip through commericals, record the live show, yes record the very show you are watching, and then go back and delete 3hrs of TV you just watched. Yes that makes more sense, and alot more effiecent and less steps to record, and go back in and delete the recording, after you just watched it. Very hard to hit the pause button, a very complicated process. Granted you get much more flexiblity with the pause button and DLB. Heck you can even pause and rewind 2 different shows.


I completely agree.

The live buffer is for, and marketed as, pausing live TV. The phone rings, pause live TV. Papergirl at the door, pause live TV...

The record button is a crutch to overcome the shortcomings of the way most of us are used to using a DVR.

The big problem is having to use record just so you can make use of the live buffer. i.e. when you have not caught up to live TV yet and it changes channels to record and you lose everything in the buffer. 

So much for being able to pause live TV. 

We have a laundry list of work-arounds and preventive measures that DLB or "something better" *should* be able to fix.

At least I hope so. :grin:

Mike


----------



## John Nadeau

GrumpyBear said:


> ...tries to change the channel they get a message about changing to live mode....


I have to say that my former ReplayTv DVR did something like this and it was great! Just a quick little reminder to tell you that you're about to kill your entire buffer before switching channels.

Of course, DirecTv could do something really crazy... like making a user option in the setup menu! "Popup Warning Message before clearing buffer when changing channels: yes or no".


----------



## GrumpyBear

and if you don't want to change it, one button swap's you over to the other tuner, or say yes, its your choice. Granted it does add 1 extra click to just changing the channel, for some, one button click would be to much for them, they would rather have no warning at all.


----------



## sunking

Jhon69 said:


> I believe if DirecTV can give us dual 90 minute buffers with the DirecTV DVR+ then they should go for it.But If not then they should let it be,because I'm pretty sure the new HD DirecTivo will have this feature.But at what cost?.Will the live buffers be 90 minutes or 60,when it comes to the live buffer more is definitely better.:sure:


I'm really not sure why people think that adding a DLB would affect the size of the buffer. All it is is a smidgen more disk space. Even on the smallest drives available in the product range you are talking I think < 2% drive space for a full 90 minute. At least thats what I seem to get back when I delete a typical HD movie of ~90m. Really there is no reason to have any limit set other than if the disk is full, well pretty full, do need a little breathing room to work well. Becomes a little more complicated to is not that big a deal.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Its been how many months now? That this forum was unstuck and the predicted it would die off, as something better would make us all forget about it?


----------



## raott

sunking said:


> Ok, I have to say that's a pretty good implementation, although I think it would get annoying for those people who are new to it and don't really understand things like number of tuners and DLB. It does however show that DLB is not just some afterthought that just happened to fall out of making a DVR, it was an actual funtional requirement. At least for companies other than Directv.


That's because other companies engineers actually did a design for the customer, identified customer CTQs rather than having their owner tell them "I own a company in europe that makes DVRs, you need to go use theirs".


----------



## Richierich

Yes, but THAT SOMETHING BETTER is just around that proverbial corner that we may or may not be rounding.


----------



## GrumpyBear

I can tell you what, 2 really good games tonight.
DLB and PiP prove there worth, as the Bowl game and the Ravens Vs Cowboys game, kept things jumping.


----------



## Jhon69

sunking said:


> I'm really not sure why people think that adding a DLB would affect the size of the buffer. All it is is a smidgen more disk space. Even on the smallest drives available in the product range you are talking I think < 2% drive space for a full 90 minute. At least thats what I seem to get back when I delete a typical HD movie of ~90m. Really there is no reason to have any limit set other than if the disk is full, well pretty full, do need a little breathing room to work well. Becomes a little more complicated to is not that big a deal.


It's simple really,persons like myself do not know.So because we don't know we guess.

My ideal DVR would be one that has all of the functions that everyone wants.DLB with the same amount of minutes as the DirecTV DVR+ or more(90 minutes).The buffers would be able to expand(like the R15's buffer,once you pause,it can expand up to 4 hours).:sure: 
To me the down arrow is the best to apply DLB,but that's just me.


----------



## ATARI

Aren't you paying attention -- we just got the 'something better' in the last release.

It's called QuickTune.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> To me the down arrow is the best to apply DLB,but that's just me.


If you use the down arrow instead of a different button, how do you channel surf up and down in the guide or the onscreen guide?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

ATARI said:


> Aren't you paying attention -- we just got the 'something better' in the last release.
> 
> It's called QuickTune.


Ok.....

I for one would be really disappointed if that's the best they can do. 

I kinda think the criteria of what would be better(found earlier in this thread) is still the yardstick. Quick Tune doesn't quite reach it. :grin:

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

ATARI said:


> Aren't you paying attention -- we just got the 'something better' in the last release.
> 
> It's called QuickTune.


Quicktune? How does that work?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> Quicktune? How does that work?


Hit the up arrow.

You can put nine channels in the menu.

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

A kind of Hotlist, with one button thats cool.
Not DLB cool, but nice to have.


----------



## dennisj00

My bar is set MUCH higher than QT!


----------



## Sandy

That is *not* something better to me. I will never be completely happy with my HR21 until it has DLB. I used DLB constantly on my old SD Tivo. The HR21 has changed the way I watch TV, but not in a way I like. I was a very satisfied 8 year customer before my switch to HD and the HR21. Now, I am a frustrated and vaguely unhappy customer ready to switch companies when my contract is up. Somehow, I don't think that is the desired outcome for Directv.

Why can't we truly watch TV "our way" instead of the way Directv SW engineers think we should? Not everyone watches TV the same way. There are a lot of people who want DLB. I am one of them.

Sandy


----------



## GrumpyBear

Ok, just remember Atari's comment was dripping with Sarcasm.
I did want to know how the feature worked.
But Atari was being very Sarcastic, you could hear the sarcasm dripping from his keyboard.


----------



## ATARI

GrumpyBear said:


> Ok, just remember Atari's comment was dripping with Sarcasm.
> I did want to know how the feature worked.
> But Atari was being very Sarcastic, you could hear the sarcasm dripping from his keyboard.


----------



## ATARI

You guys know I'm a DLBer. No way I'm going to settle for anything else.

Still, the wife really likes the QT, so it's a good thing.


----------



## Sandy

Yeah, I heard the sarcasm and was agreeing with it. (I guess mine was not as evident as Atari's.)
And then, one more time, expressing my thoughts on DLB in the hopes that it will make a difference. (It's Christmas, one can hope.) 

Sandy


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sandy said:


> Yeah, I heard the sarcasm and was agreeing with it. (I guess mine was not as evident as Atari's.)
> And then, one more time, expressing my thoughts on DLB in the hopes that it will make a difference. (It's Christmas, one can hope.)
> 
> Sandy


One can always hope. :grin:

I'll sitting right there along side you with my fingers crossed and waiting for DLB or "something better". 

Mike


----------



## Richierich

I understand we are getting MRV for Christmas from Directv. Wow, am I excited.

Along with QuickTune I am set until I get QuickTune which I hear is "Coming Soon" to a DVR near you.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Aren't you paying attention -- we just got the 'something better' in the last release.
> 
> It's called QuickTune.


A bit cynical are we?  Clearly QuickTune is not DLB .. and "something better" is not "something else"


----------



## raott

Doug Brott said:


> A bit cynical are we?  Clearly QuickTune is not DLB .. and "something better" is not "something else"


It's pretty easy to be cynical when, after two plus years (more than that with the R15), D* still cannot make DLBs happen.


----------



## James Long

raott said:


> It's pretty easy to be cynical when, after two plus years (more than that with the R15), D* still cannot make DLBs happen.


Can not or will not? Bottom line, it isn't there.


----------



## n3ntj

How on earth is QuickTune as good as DLB? They are not the same feature and don't accomplish the same job. DLB has the other tuner's buffer saved and one can switch b/w the two live tuner buffers. Quicktune is simply a list of favorite channels once can quickly tune to. No buffer is saved using this except for the current live tuner's program. Change channels and its gone.


----------



## Lord Vader

Perhaps he was being sarcastic.


----------



## jahgreen

Lord Vader said:


> Perhaps he was being sarcastic.


Ya think?


----------



## Doug Brott

raott said:


> It's pretty easy to be cynical when, after two plus years (more than that with the R15), D* still cannot make DLBs happen.


Yes, and nothing wrong with that .. but I'm still going to roll my eyes


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> If you use the down arrow instead of a different button, how do you channel surf up and down in the guide or the onscreen guide?


That's the way it works on my HR10-250 and I have no problems surfing or when I'm in the guide.You do it(down arrow) when your not in the guide or you can switch tuners when your in Info.:sure:


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> .. and "something better" is not "something else"


A hint maybe?
At least with that criteria we don't have to wonder if the "coming soon to a DVR near you" MRV is/was supposed to be the "something better", and that "something better" is DLB-ish.

I'm hoping that when MRV finally gets finished that they can start on DLB. Should have been the other way around, simply due to the apparent ease of implementation at any rate. Given D* track record MRV is going to take several months to implement, so DLB will likely not be here any time soon.

Frank


----------



## chuckyHDDTV

And if and when we DO get DLB and play around with it for several months and then decide we want more, then what? What will be the next "want"? I for one would like a talking girl, just like my GPS, when I change my channels but thats me personally..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

chuckyHDDTV said:


> And if and when we DO get DLB and play around with it for several months and then decide we want more, then what? What will be the next "want"? I for one would like a talking girl, just like my GPS, when I change my channels but thats me personally..


Hmmmm....Interesting idea. :lol:

I'm pretty sure we'll come up with another feature to champion; another feature to discuss ad nauseam; another feature to endlessly beat each other up about.

It's what we do. 

Mike


----------



## James Long

chuckyHDDTV said:


> And if and when we DO get DLB and play around with it for several months and then decide we want more, then what? What will be the next "want"? I for one would like a talking girl, just like my GPS, when I change my channels but thats me personally..


People always want the next thing.

Fortunately my GPS is upgradable. Changing voices/icons is window dressing until I spring for a fancier model that speaks road names or Bluetooth connects to my cellphone for updates ... but it is something that can make it "new again" while I save up the pennies for today's model.

Adding DLB to these old receivers is a good way of making them "new again". I'm sure that if it had DLB on day one we would have been reading complaints about some other "missing" feature that people feel entitled to.


----------



## sunking

Flyrx7 said:


> A hint maybe?
> At least with that criteria we don't have to wonder if the "coming soon to a DVR near you" MRV is/was supposed to be the "something better", and that "something better" is DLB-ish.
> 
> I'm hoping that when MRV finally gets finished that they can start on DLB. Should have been the other way around, simply due to the apparent ease of implementation at any rate. Given D* track record MRV is going to take several months to implement, so DLB will likely not be here any time soon.
> 
> Frank


I think that DLB is probably a prereq for MRV. I really don't see how you can implement MRV without it having XLB (Where X is the number of tuners, two for the current line) working at least under the covers. Unless of course they do a really lame MRV implementation that forces everything to view the single stream that the main receiver is viewing. Which I guess is always possible, and given our track record maybe even probable


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Fascinating.


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> Fascinating.


Without a smilie?

So sunking is on to something?


----------



## sunking

ATARI said:


> Without a smilie?
> 
> So sunking is on to something?


Was there ever any doubt? I'm an **** genius


----------



## Lord Vader

sunking said:


> I think that DLB is probably a prereq for MRV. I really don't see how you can implement MRV without it having XLB (Where X is the number of tuners, two for the current line) working at least under the covers. Unless of course they do a really lame MRV implementation that forces everything to view the single stream that the main receiver is viewing. Which I guess is always possible, and given our track record maybe even probable


Considering Earl has said more than once earlier this year that DirecTV has the technological ability to implement DLB, your statement about MRV would be incorrect.


----------



## sunking

Lord Vader said:


> Considering Earl has said more than once earlier this year that DirecTV has the technological ability to implement DLB, your statement about MRV would be incorrect.


I'm not following what you are refering to. If you go under the assumption that MRV is the gateway to having a whole home system (which seems to be a pretty good assumption from the directv receiver roadmap), then you simply can not do it without first implementing at least DLB. Oh, they may not call it that, or even advertise it as a feature. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

Earl was great at being overly pedantic. If Directv labels it as cheesy puffs then he'd say they have implemented cheesy puffs and not DLB. I'm more a hand grenade guy and thus will stick with that DLB functionality is a prereq to MRV as I understand MRV will work which I admit could be completely wrong.


----------



## Lord Vader

Permit me to clarify my above statement then. I don't know if DLB is somehow technically required to have MRV--I don't believe it is. However, I do know that DLB can be implemented right now if DirecTV wanted to, and its implementation is not dependent on anything else. DirecTV simply _chooses _ not to employ it. I think that is what has so many of us pissed.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> A bit cynical are we?  Clearly QuickTune is not DLB .. and "something better" is not "something else"





Stuart Sweet said:


> Fascinating.


Two interesting posts. 

Not that we are reading anything into what you two have said but.....interesting. :grin:

Mike


----------



## kanderna

MicroBeta said:


> Not that we are reading anything into what you two have said but.....interesting. :grin:


Yay! We're getting DLB! Stuart and Doug said so. :lol:


----------



## Richierich

We're getting DLB??? Hot diggety dog! and MRV, WOW I can't stand it. My two favorite WishLists Items.


----------



## sunking

kanderna said:


> Yay! We're getting DLB! Stuart and Doug said so. :lol:


And puppies for everyone!


----------



## kanderna

sunking said:


> And puppies for everyone!


Even better. I think I'll name mine DiLBMaRV! (yeah, I know. couldn't come up with anything better on short notice) :barf:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

kanderna said:


> Even better. I think I'll name mine DiLBMaRV! (yeah, I know. couldn't come up with anything better on short notice) :barf:


:scratchin


----------



## puffnstuff

Lord Vader said:


> DirecTV simply _chooses _ not to employ it. I think that is what has so many of us pissed.


Couldn't have said it better .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> Permit me to clarify my above statement then. I don't know if DLB is somehow technically required to have MRV--I don't believe it is. However, I do know that DLB can be implemented right now if DirecTV wanted to, and its implementation is not dependent on anything else. *DirecTV simply chooses  not to employ it.* I think that is what has so many of us pissed.


While true, I'm not sure how simple it all was.  :lol:

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Lord Vader said:


> Permit me to clarify my above statement then. I don't know if DLB is somehow technically required to have MRV--I don't believe it is. However, I do know that DLB can be implemented right now if DirecTV wanted to, and its implementation is not dependent on anything else. DirecTV simply _chooses _ not to employ it. I think that is what has so many of us pissed.


How do you KNOW that DIRECTV can implement DLB right now? Would it cause a Restructuring and Reloading of the database on each DVR? How many resulting problems could that cause? Would Directv want to take that chance?

I doubt it and I would bet lots of money that it will never happen in my lifetime!


----------



## Lord Vader

richierich said:


> How do you KNOW that DIRECTV can implement DLB right now?


Because I know. 

Anyway, one with great knowledge has said this before.


----------



## Richierich

My Lord, I bow down to you but I must know who these people are? Are they Sages? Do they know the Future?


----------



## Lord Vader

You don't need to know anymore than what I have told you.


----------



## MEY

puffnstuff said:


> Couldn't have said it better .


How many years has this issue been talked about ? If they (D*) read these forums they would know how much the people wanted this feature. Obviously the *******S don't care !! PERIOD.


----------



## Richierich

Lord Vader said:


> You don't need to know anymore than what I have told you.


Okay Supreme Ruler Of The Galaxy, I get it, I understand!


----------



## Lord Vader

Good.


----------



## Doug Brott

OK .. This isn't happy hour at the Star Wars Corral .. Thanks ..


----------



## Doug Brott

Additionally folks .. please remember that this is a family friendly forum .. please keep this in mind when posting. Thank you.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> OK .. This isn't happy hour at the Star Wars Corral .. Thanks ..


I guess the Jedi Mind Tricks aren't working. 

I think we're not far from...something...whether or not it's better. I think somethings coming soon.

BTW, I have nothing to base this on, just a feeling.

Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

MEY said:


> How many years has this issue been talked about ? If they (D*) read these forums they would know how much the people wanted this feature. Obviously the [tom - redacted] don't care !! PERIOD.


You are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to express your opinion. I don't particularly care for how you did, but you can do that too. (Tho I won't quote it.)

And I shall take this opportunity to state my opinion, based upon working with DIRECTV. They do care. A lot. They are a great group to work with.

And they have a lot on their plate, considering the HR2x has only been out 27 months.

I think they've done an awesome job, catching up to the other DVR makers who've been at this for many more years.

And with some great creativity for the UI.

(Ok, so I don't think the press and hold buttons were a good idea. Creative? Yes. Effective... well... umm... let's move on.) 

Oh, and Tivo couldn't record two back to back shows on one tuner AFTER MANY YEARS of existence! (What's up with that?) (And can they finally?)

So, yes, I want DLB but I also know DIRECTV does care. Very much.

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Tom


----------



## Flyrx7

Tom Robertson said:


> So, yes, I want DLB but I also know DIRECTV does care. Very much.
> 
> Merry Christmas, everyone!
> Tom


If that were truly the case, I wouldn't think that it would be too far out of the question for them to throw us a fricken bone then.....maybe a little acknowledgement to let us know that we are indeed being heard, that we do actually matter, that they do actually care. Otherwise I really don't see it, that they 'care'. 
Show me/tell me....that's all I'm saying. Better yet, just get it done!  Is that really too much to ask?

Happy Holidays!
Frank


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> Additionally folks .. please remember that this is a family friendly forum .. please keep this in mind when posting. Thank you.


Indeed. No need to look at ME in that regard.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> If that were truly the case, I wouldn't think that it would be too far out of the question for them to throw us a fricken bone then.....maybe a little acknowledgement to let us know that we are indeed being heard, that we do actually matter, that they do actually care. Otherwise I really don't see it, that they 'care'.
> Show me/tell me....that's all I'm saying. Better yet, just get it done!  Is that really too much to ask?
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Frank


Last I checked there was a pile of them in the yard .. :grin:


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> Indeed. No need to look at ME in that regard.


on this you are correct.


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> Additionally folks .. please remember that this is a family friendly forum .. please keep this in mind when posting. Thank you.


Indeed. No need to look at me either! :lol:


----------



## General Custer

Tom Robertson said:


> And they have a lot on their plate, considering the HR2x has only been out 27 months.


Only 27 months. Only 27 months.

27 months is an eternity in the life cycle of consumer electronic devices. DVD players, cameras, TVs all turn over in a year or less. 27 months should have been enough time too fix the bugs in the box and update all the features like DLB that people are asking for.

Lets be honest. Directv switched to an inhouse box because of Rupert, rushed a box that wasn't ready to market because they were turning on MPEG4 and had no DVR available to record the new content and spent almost the whole 27 months trying to fix bugs. I know they brought about mediashare and Directv on Demand but these were not core features that anyone wanted but merely bells and whistles to have on a "compare features" checklist.

The only thing that allows them to get away with this kind of incompetence is the fact that they have a closed system. If they were forced to implement the Cablecard type open standard, this box would either have been fixed very quickly or would have been crushed by the competition. Capitalism would have taken over and someone TIVO, Apple or someone brand spanking new would have come along with a great little 2 tuner box with MRV and DLB and archived recording on a computer like the Series 3 HDTIVO and the HR series would have been history.

The CE process is great in that it allows hard core fans get a sneak peak into new software but it is pathetic that a company needs to have this many rabid volunteers to help them debug their software. You don't see Apple or SONY doing this on a regular basis.

I think that in addition to *****ing about DLB here we should also turn our attention to forcing legislation on federal level to open up the satellite set-top box world to competition like that that has occurred with cableTV and allow competition to force innovation and a return to what the customer wants.

If a customer with FIOS or cable can record a show on a TIVOHD send it to a second one, download it to a computer, "rip" it to a form that can be archived or placed on an ipod or uploaded to an appletv in another room, then so should we.

Off of Soapbox.

Merry Christmas


----------



## RangerLG

I registered on this site for this very reason. I just received my HR23 over the weekend and was trying to flip between two football games, like I always did on my SD Tivo unit (with the classic peanut remote). When I couldn't find the Live TV button, I was confused. I thought I was doing something wrong. I do like the unit. I am glad they finally implemented the 30 second skip and 3 second back skip onto the remote without a hack, but DLB was something I used all the time and am disappointed it was removed. It should be made as a selectable feature so those who want it, can have it. It would be easy to implement, just use the DASH button on the remote to flip between tuners. Great site BTW. Lots of useful information.


----------



## Doug Brott

RangerLG said:


> I registered on this site for this very reason. I just received my HR23 over the weekend and was trying to flip between two football games, like I always did on my SD Tivo unit (with the classic peanut remote). When I couldn't find the Live TV button, I was confused. I thought I was doing something wrong. I do like the unit. I am glad they finally implemented the 30 second skip and 3 second back skip onto the remote without a hack, but DLB was something I used all the time and am disappointed it was removed. It should be made as a selectable feature so those who want it, can have it. It would be easy to implement, just use the DASH button on the remote to flip between tuners. Great site BTW. Lots of useful information.


I don't think that the choice of button is the limiting factor here .. If that were it, DLB would have been here long ago.


----------



## Doug Brott

General Custer said:


> The only thing that allows them to get away with this kind of incompetence is the fact that they have a closed system. If they were forced to implement the Cablecard type open standard, this box would either have been fixed very quickly or would have been crushed by the competition. Capitalism would have taken over and someone TIVO, Apple or someone brand spanking new would have come along with a great little 2 tuner box with MRV and DLB and archived recording on a computer like the Series 3 HDTIVO and the HR series would have been history.


TiVo's "back" for the past 3 months .. They already have a receiver that works with DIRECTV and just have to add MPEG4 tuners to make it work .. Their own press release says H209 .. which in layman's terms means December 2009 .. Knowing TiVo's past I expect Q110 at the earliest ..

Is 15-18 months too long for a company that already HAS the software?


----------



## RangerLG

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think that the choice of button is the limiting factor here .. If that were it, DLB would have been here long ago.


I wasn't saying that the choice of button is the factor, I'm just saying that the remote would not even need to be altered if implemented. I used the dash as an example of a button that is rarely, if ever, used.


----------



## General Custer

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo's "back" for the past 3 months .. They already have a receiver that works with DIRECTV and just have to add MPEG4 tuners to make it work .. Their own press release says H209 .. which in layman's terms means December 2009 .. Knowing TiVo's past I expect Q110 at the earliest ..
> 
> Is 15-18 months too long for a company that already HAS the software?


This is 27 months after the release. 15-18 months is before the release. An open standard would allow an innovative, motivated company to get something better out before 15-18 months and corner the market.

Competition is a beautiful thing.


----------



## Richierich

What does the H stand for in H209?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

richierich said:


> What does the H stand for in H209?


Half


----------



## Tom Robertson

Flyrx7 said:


> If that were truly the case, I wouldn't think that it would be too far out of the question for them to throw us a fricken bone then.....maybe a little acknowledgement to let us know that we are indeed being heard, that we do actually matter, that they do actually care. Otherwise I really don't see it, that they 'care'.
> Show me/tell me....that's all I'm saying. Better yet, just get it done!  Is that really too much to ask?
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Frank


Actually, DIRECTV has sent many messages that we are heard. I've delivered several of them. In multiple forms, by the way. As has Earl, Doug, Stuart, and other members who've been to CES or talked to DIRECTV one way or another.

I suspect they are wondering why they aren't heard. 


General Custer said:


> Only 27 months. Only 27 months.
> 
> 27 months is an eternity in the life cycle of consumer electronic devices. DVD players, cameras, TVs all turn over in a year or less. 27 months should have been enough time too fix the bugs in the box and update all the features like DLB that people are asking for.
> 
> Lets be honest. Directv switched to an inhouse box because of Rupert, rushed a box that wasn't ready to market because they were turning on MPEG4 and had no DVR available to record the new content and spent almost the whole 27 months trying to fix bugs. I know they brought about mediashare and Directv on Demand but these were not core features that anyone wanted but merely bells and whistles to have on a "compare features" checklist.
> 
> The only thing that allows them to get away with this kind of incompetence is the fact that they have a closed system. If they were forced to implement the Cablecard type open standard, this box would either have been fixed very quickly or would have been crushed by the competition. Capitalism would have taken over and someone TIVO, Apple or someone brand spanking new would have come along with a great little 2 tuner box with MRV and DLB and archived recording on a computer like the Series 3 HDTIVO and the HR series would have been history.
> 
> The CE process is great in that it allows hard core fans get a sneak peak into new software but it is pathetic that a company needs to have this many rabid volunteers to help them debug their software. You don't see Apple or SONY doing this on a regular basis.
> 
> I think that in addition to *****ing about DLB here we should also turn our attention to forcing legislation on federal level to open up the satellite set-top box world to competition like that that has occurred with cableTV and allow competition to force innovation and a return to what the customer wants.
> 
> If a customer with FIOS or cable can record a show on a TIVOHD send it to a second one, download it to a computer, "rip" it to a form that can be archived or placed on an ipod or uploaded to an appletv in another room, then so should we.
> 
> Off of Soapbox.
> 
> Merry Christmas


27 Months is indeed a life-time in general consumer electronics. TVs are introduced twice a year now. AVreceivers are still annual.

But not all consumer electronics cycles that quickly.

Wait... How long has the PS3 been out? Isn't is way, way overdue?  Wii is still short supply and unchanged in how long? 

Yet, we've seen 3 basic flavors of the HR2x line. They are cycling new models.

As for the process, well you are welcome to your opinion. Microsoft has even more rabid (as in more of them who are more rabid) testers than DIRECTV.

And I contend, with uncollated data, that DIRECTV's progress has been warp speed as compared to Tivo, Dish, etc.

Merry Christmas!
Tom


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> Can not or will not? Bottom line, it isn't there.


Can not, why would they want to be the odd man out? Every other DVR out there has DLB. Just not D*. It must conflict with another feature/D * spam or something they think is important. We can only hope that this TiVo deal can help them out.

[edit] ..or When they were doing the marking research and development of the plus (+) line. Their high $$ price team did not do enough and rush the product. Only to find out DLB is on ever other DVR out there and most user use that feature daily. By now they were too late into the product to redo it so, left it out. Maybe they can upgrade it later like OTA. Only to find out it's a lot harder then they thought......No..no...no that can't be right. The money that D* has sure of gave them all the info they needed to build the DVR.....It must conflict with another feature/upcoming one...never mind. ;D


----------



## Que

richierich said:


> Yes, but THAT SOMETHING BETTER is just around that proverbial corner that we may or may not be rounding.


I'm sure that Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual did not lie to us on 5/2/08. I bet they are still are working on it. It is just taking them a little longer to get it done.


----------



## Que

General Custer said:


> Only 27 months. Only 27 months.
> 
> 27 months is an eternity in the life cycle of consumer electronic devices. DVD players, cameras, TVs all turn over in a year or less. 27 months should have been enough time too fix the bugs in the box and update all the features like DLB that people are asking for.
> 
> Lets be honest. Directv switched to an inhouse box because of Rupert, rushed a box that wasn't ready to market because they were turning on MPEG4 and had no DVR available to record the new content and spent almost the whole 27 months trying to fix bugs. I know they brought about mediashare and Directv on Demand but these were not core features that anyone wanted but merely bells and whistles to have on a "compare features" checklist.
> 
> The only thing that allows them to get away with this kind of incompetence is the fact that they have a closed system. If they were forced to implement the Cablecard type open standard, this box would either have been fixed very quickly or would have been crushed by the competition. Capitalism would have taken over and someone TIVO, Apple or someone brand spanking new would have come along with a great little 2 tuner box with MRV and DLB and archived recording on a computer like the Series 3 HDTIVO and the HR series would have been history.
> 
> The CE process is great in that it allows hard core fans get a sneak peak into new software but it is pathetic that a company needs to have this many rabid volunteers to help them debug their software. You don't see Apple or SONY doing this on a regular basis.
> 
> I think that in addition to *****ing about DLB here we should also turn our attention to forcing legislation on federal level to open up the satellite set-top box world to competition like that that has occurred with cableTV and allow competition to force innovation and a return to what the customer wants.
> 
> If a customer with FIOS or cable can record a show on a TIVOHD send it to a second one, download it to a computer, "rip" it to a form that can be archived or placed on an ipod or uploaded to an appletv in another room, then so should we.
> 
> Off of Soapbox.
> 
> Merry Christmas


Nice post! You can also sent a snail mail letter to D*! http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103897

Anyone know how many updates (total) the HR2x box has now?


----------



## Doug Brott

36 updates in 864 days of release ..

*Year One: 23 Firmware Releases*

09/01/2006 - 0x0be
09/16/2006 - 0x0cc
09/26/2006 - 0x0d1
10/03/2006 - 0x0d8
10/10/2006 - 0x0dc
10/19/2006 - 0x0e3
11/07/2006 - 0x0eb
11/13/2006 - 0x0ef
11/20/2006 - 0x0f6
11/22/2006 - 0x0fa
12/05/2006 - 0x104
12/13/2006 - 0x108
12/18/2006 - 0x10b
01/13/2007 - 0x119
01/19/2007 - 0x11b
02/01/2007 - 0x120
02/10/2007 - 0x12a
02/28/2007 - 0x134
03/20/2007 - 0x13e
03/29/2007 - 0x145
05/16/2007 - 0x15c
06/08/2007 - 0x168
07/18/2007 - 0x17e
*Year Two: 10 Firmware Releases*

08/21/2007 - 0x18a
10/23/2007 - 0x1b4
11/07/2007 - 0x1be
01/09/2008 - 0x1ea
02/12/2008 - 0x1fe
04/22/2008 - 0x22b
05/07/2008 - 0x22d
06/12/2008 - 0x235
07/01/2008 - 0x251
07/16/2008 - 0x254/0x255
*Year Three: 3 Firmware Releases*

10/21/2008 - 0x290
11/06/2008 - 0x29b
12/17/2008 - 0x2af


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> Last I checked there was a pile of them in the yard .. :grin:


Maybe so, but this dog wants DLB, not any other superfluous knick-knack feature for the sake of being able to say "Hey, we have that."


----------



## Flyrx7

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually, DIRECTV has sent many messages that we are heard. I've delivered several of them. In multiple forms, by the way. As has Earl, Doug, Stuart, and other members who've been to CES or talked to DIRECTV one way or another.
> 
> I suspect they are wondering why they aren't heard.
> 
> Tom


Actually, I'm referring to the topic at hand of DLB. When was the last message from D* about DLB delivered? That is the specific bone I'm talking about. Anything else is just fluff, IMHO.

As far as what will I go onto to advocate for, if/after we receive DLB; I'm pretty sure that I'll only frequent this site for bug updates and fixes. I came to this site for DLB research and will likely leave it when we get it (to the delight of many, I'm sure, so save the passive-aggressive barbs to yourselves, thank-you-very-much).

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> Maybe so, but this dog wants DLB, not any other superfluous knick-knack feature for the sake of being able to say "Hey, we have that."


like I said ..


----------



## Jhon69

My thoughts are if DirecTV didn't care about what their subscribers want concerning DLB, they wouldn't have come out with any DLB workarounds but they have.I also remember reading it was reported that as long as DLB doesn't interfere with anything else that DirecTV has planned for the DVR+ they would gradually add this feature.

So now there is a new HD DirecTivo coming does that eliminate the need to add DLB to the DVR+?.Was that one of the reasons DirecTV decided to go back with Tivo?.If DLB is not added to the DVR+ before the DirecTivo comes out how much of a migration to the newer DVR can DirecTV expect?.I guess only in time can we receive any answers to these questions.

I do know that I am spoiled with the 90 minute buffer,would I like 2 90 minute buffers? Yes I would.:sure:


----------



## Lord Vader

I wouldn't say DirecTV "came out with" DLB workarounds. It was the folks here who discovered a way around the lack of DLB.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> I wouldn't say DirecTV "came out with" DLB workarounds. It was the folks here who discovered a way around the lack of DLB.


They did add the ability to maintain the pause point for live TV when switching to a recording and back....kinda enhancing the workaround.

Even though they didn't create the workaround they added to it :grin:

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

So basically they just threw us a bone to get us to quiet down a little. Yeah, that makes sense.


----------



## DblD_Indy

Any chance we will see them before 2112?


----------



## Doug Brott

DblD_Indy said:


> Any chance we will see them before 2112?


There's always a chance ..


----------



## tthunder38

Doug Brott said:


> There's always a chance ..


albeit a slim one ( i believe)


----------



## Richierich

I heard SLIM just left Dodge on a stagecoach headed West.


----------



## GrumpyBear

I thought Slim was on its way, to do a low level fly over of Pluto, to report back on its planet Status.
Granted with doubleheader sunday yesterday, DLB showed its worth again.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *204 8.83%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 371 16.06% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 156 6.75%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,490 64.50%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 89 3.85%*
Voters: *2310*

Replies 3,330	
Views 128,992

Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## GrumpyBear

What you can't watch both the GatorBowl and the Capital one Bowl, that are playing at the same time?


----------



## dennisj00

Just think Grumpy . . . another year you can rub it in!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

GrumpyBear said:


> What you can't watch both the GatorBowl and the Capital one Bowl, that are playing at the same time?


You can with the workaround...if you're only watching those two. 

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

dennisj00 said:


> Just think Grumpy . . . another year you can rub it in!


Not for to much longer. Were the Family does use DLB everyday, its really important during the Football season for me, and that is closing as today will really be the last day, for college or Pro, where there will be 2 games on at the sametime. Otherwise its just cool feature, that comes in handy to keep the family happy. Now come Sept.... I may have more fun. Then we will know for sure what features the new Tivo/Direct DVR brings to the mix.


----------



## GrumpyBear

MicroBeta said:


> You can with the workaround...if you're only watching those two.
> 
> Mike


Only other game on early today was the Outback bowl. South Carolina forgot to make the trip.


----------



## ghfiii

ATARI said:


> Aren't you paying attention -- we just got the 'something better' in the last release.
> 
> It's called QuickTune.


The HD Toshiba DST 3000 IRD I had back in 2003 had this feature. I used it constantly.

I always wished my D* Tivo had a quicktune feature. It would have been a great addition to DLB to jump between favorite channels.

Without DLB I have not (and probably will not) setup any of my favorite channels on my HR21 to use the QuickTune feature...I mean really, dump my only buffer to jump to a channel that might have something I want to watch?

:nono2:

DLB and QuickTune IMHO qualifies as SOMETHING BETTER...but I am not getting my hopes up.


----------



## Lord Vader

I dunno. Is it just me, or is Quick Tune just a "ho hum" feature? If it's good for anything, it's gotta be the 3-digit channel numbers. If I want to tune to channel 7, one of my locals, then it's actually easier and quicker to punch in 7 rather than up arrow to get to quick tune, then scroll over to the square with 7 in it, then press OK or enter.

:shrug:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> I dunno. Is it just me, or is Quick Tune just a "ho hum" feature? If it's good for anything, it's gotta be the 3-digit channel numbers. If I want to tune to channel 7, one of my locals, then it's actually easier and quicker to punch in 7 rather than up arrow to get to quick tune, then scroll over to the square with 7 in it, then press OK or enter.
> 
> :shrug:


I like it. I do have three digit channels.

Mike


----------



## TechMoe

For those of you that don't care about DLB or are sicki of people asking, then this will be another one of those questions you scroll by. But for those of you, like me, that really want DLB and hope to have it added to the HD DVR, then I was wondering if DLB will be a possibility in 2009 on the HD DVR's. Everytime they release a software update like a few days ago, the first thing I check for is DLB and everytime I don't see it. But I wonder if I am looking for something that will never be there. Has DTV said anything about DLB? Is there any chance they will add it in the new year? It seems to me that if they haven't added it by now, then they have no intention of doing so. To me DLB is ESSENTIAL function so its like they are making all these little improvements or changes, which are generally very welcomed, but they keep ignorin g the giant elephant in the room, at least that is the case for me and many that I know have expressed a desire for it. 

So any chance we will be getting it? 

I know the HD Tivo's will be coming out this year, but I have no idea when they will actually be available if it even is this year, how they will be priced, and distributed by DTV. I have a feeling there will be a huge demand for them and it will be difficult to get your hands on them when they come out so I figure it will be a while at least until I can get my hands on a couple of them to swap out my existing HR22's. So I figure in the menatime it would be nice to have DLB on the HR22's until I can get my hands on a couple of the Tivos. 

So does anyone know, anyone heard anything? Is it coming, will it ever come and when? I was watcing TV earlier tonight and wanted to do what I used to due with my Tivo's and use the DLB but I couldn't do it obviously and I thought god would it be nice to have that come soon.


----------



## dodge boy

There's always a chance.... 
But no one knows for sure.


----------



## MIAMI1683

I asked a similar question once. I was told DLB is well they didn't really no. They didn't say it wasn't going to be added. They just said "not right now". You can keep hoping though. As far as the Tivo thing. Sometime this year is a good line. I believe the term used was *"The second half of 2009". *So only 11 months to go :lol::lol: . Why not enjoy the 90 min buffer on the HR22 and be happy? Not that you aren't. As long as I have been a tech guy. I have known one thing. Nothing is ever on time. EVER! Having said that maybe the Tivo thing will wait for 2010.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sure, there's always a chance .. just like last year and the year before ..


----------



## Doug Brott

TechMoe said:


> To me DLB is ESSENTIAL function


 ...

Essential is likely reserved for: Record (timer & manual), Playback and Trick Play (FF, REW, PAUSE) .. BUT .. clearly DLB is highly desired and right up there for many folks. If you didn't have the essential items above, then it wouldn't really be a DVR no matter how you look at it. Without DLB, it's still a DVR, just not one with all of the features you want on it.


----------



## Richierich

MIAMI1683 said:


> As far as the Tivo thing. Sometime this year is a good line. I believe the term used was *"The second half of 2009". *So only 11 months to go :lol::lol: . As long as I have been a tech guy. I have known one thing. Nothing is ever on time. EVER! Having said that maybe the Tivo thing will wait for 2010.


I would bet money that we will not see the New MPEG-4 Directivo DVR until the First Quarter of 2010.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> Essential is likely reserved for: Record (timer & manual), Playback and Trick Play (FF, REW, PAUSE) .. BUT .. clearly DLB is highly desired and right up there for many folks. If you didn't have the essential items above, then it wouldn't really be a DVR no matter how you look at it. Without DLB, it's still a DVR, just not one with all of the features you want on it.


Essential is more like food, water and shelter ... and DLB


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I seem to remember reading through forums when everyone was waiting for access to the second tuner on TiVo (Jul-Aug’ish 2001 I think).

It was a big deal.

Some thought it was important.

Some thought it was essential.

Some thought it was just logical to have the use of two tuners (I think kinda fall into this camp).

The threads were long, heated, and never ending.

Hmmmm…. :grin:

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

Doug Brott said:


> ...
> 
> Essential is likely reserved for: Record (timer & manual), Playback and Trick Play (FF, REW, PAUSE) .. BUT .. clearly DLB is highly desired and right up there for many folks. If you didn't have the essential items above, then it wouldn't really be a DVR no matter how you look at it. Without DLB, it's still a DVR, just not one with all of the features you want on it.


So this means they're still working on Record (timer & manual), Playback and Trick Play (FF, REW, PAUSE) . . and great items like quicktune!

I'll have to say some things have been pretty good, but I still want DLB!


----------



## veryoldschool

:bang


----------



## TechMoe

All some very good points. And I am definitely not holding my breath for the Tivo box and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't even cometill next year so I am not even gonna sit around waiting for it. I mean honestly, my issues with the HR22 compared to my old Tivo have mostly faded and I am now getting used to it, sort of. But not having DLB is something I can't get used to. If they added it I think I would no longer care about when the Tivo was gonna come out, even though I would still want one. But I'm thinking oh man why can't they just add it so that I don't have to go another year or two without it. 

I honestly do not get the opposition by some on the forum to those who want DLB. To some people like me, it is an essential function, of course not as essential as record and rewind, but I got used to DLB and used it virtually everytime I watched TV and I know many other people are the same way. And I don't get it, if you do not use or do not care about DLB, why be so opposed to it as an added feature. If you don't use it, you don't have to. But those of us that do use it will have that ability. I don't get what the big deal is.


----------



## Flyrx7

TechMoe said:


> I honestly do not get the opposition by some on the forum to those who want DLB. To some people like me, it is an essential function, of course not as essential as record and rewind, but I got used to DLB and used it virtually everytime I watched TV and I know many other people are the same way. And I don't get it, if you do not use or do not care about DLB, why be so opposed to it as an added feature. If you don't use it, you don't have to. But those of us that do use it will have that ability. I don't get what the big deal is.


Ha Ha. Yeah. Welcome to the club.

I personally have a love/hate relationship with that issue. I don't get it either, but without them playing devils advocate, this thread would have likely died a year ago. It helps perpetuate the issue having the opposition post their silly reasons, so for keeping the debate alive, I thank them.

[tin foil hat on]
Some like to think it's a conspiracy. Company shills trying to jedi mind trick us into thinking we don't need it, simply because of the fact that they forgot an essential feature and are too embarrased to admit they made a mistake. Others may think it's simply a superiority complex for the passive-aggresive's to fluff their egos while belittling others want for an essential feature. 
I personally think it's simply a bunch of closet-DLB-lovers afraid to admit their affinity and pretending to be 'haters' just to further the cause, although I can't help but think that the shills are involved somehow. 
[/tin foil hat off]

But whatever the reason for the opposition, you have to be thankful for it, it does help keep the debate lively. Without it this thread wouldn't be nearly as interesting and would likely die a slow death.

Regards,
Frank


----------



## Lord Vader

I can tell you this much from my Sith sources: one big reason that DLB has not been implemented is because DirecTV knows that without it, their customers would have to [redacted by the Empire]


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Lord Vader said:


> I can tell you this much from my Sith sources: one big reason that DLB has not been implemented is because DirecTV knows that without it, their customers would have to [redacted by the Empire]


Ok, I just sprayed my drink all over the place.

That was pretty darned funny.










Mike


----------



## boltjames

Lord Vader said:


> So basically they just threw us a bone to get us to quiet down a little. Yeah, that makes sense.


Happy new year. Or is it?

BJ


----------



## boltjames

veryoldschool said:


> :bang


Glad to see the frustration continuing if only to help others understand that the quest is futile.

Can you help me with MRV? I've got all my HR's on the internet now for VOD and would love the ability to have the bedroom talk to the great room and deliver its recordings up there.

BJ


----------



## Stuart Sweet

MRV is not part of the national release software. See our Cutting Edge forum for more details.


----------



## Jhon69

richierich said:


> I would bet money that we will not see the New MPEG-4 Directivo DVR until the First Quarter of 2010.


That may be true,but it's more of a definite than the DVR+,don't you think?.


----------



## Jhon69

boltjames said:


> Glad to see the frustration continuing if only to help others understand that the quest is futile.
> 
> Can you help me with MRV? I've got all my HR's on the internet now for VOD and would love the ability to have the bedroom talk to the great room and deliver its recordings up there.
> 
> BJ


You can use the DVR Scheduler and record the same programs on all your DVRs until MRV arrives.


----------



## Lord Vader

boltjames said:


> Happy new year. Or is it?
> 
> BJ


It is. And it will be a sad year for DirecTV when they find out that their customers have learned DLB isn't present because [redacted by the Empire].

That will change, however. Indeed, it shall change.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> That will change, however. Indeed, it shall change.


The one thing we can count on is change ..


----------



## Lord Vader

And that's all we'll be left with--change--with [Empire redacted] in charge.


----------



## guyravad

I would like DLBs to protect me from those accidental channel changes. Sometimes when a commercial hits and I forget I have been watching a 15 to 30 minute time-shifted program, I switch to another channel for a minute only to find out I just lost 15-30 or so minutes of what I was watching and cannot get it back. Then there's the accidental key input- whether it's a kid that grabs the remote and enters a different channel or hits channel up or down. The time-shifted programming gets lost. Sometimes at night I am just fumbling for the remote in the covers or couch pillows and accidentally hit the wrong key and the channel changes and there's nothing I can do about it. Instead of DLBs I'd settle for a simple warning that my old single tuner Dish PVR 501 used to give that made you confirm the change before switching to live TV.

Prior to my switch to DTV I had TWC which I hated. They had just "upgraded" their DVR boxes with their own software which was inferior but it did add DLBs. Two 90 minute buffers. And I loved that feature. Gone were all those lost time-shifted shows and I also enjoyed the benefits other supporters of DLBs have described. The only down side was to keep two HD channels in those buffers a significant portion of that tiny hard drive had to be made available. In fact I lost some saved programs since my hard drive was nearly full prior to their software upgrade that enabled the feature.

So my vote is for Dual live buffers. I was aware of it's absence when I made the switch to DTV. DTV had more HD programming and bigger DVR hard drive capacity. But one day when Cable, Dish and Directv have similar service in all other respects the lack of DLB will be a liabilty when it doesn't have to be.


----------



## GrumpyBear

You would think, they would give you that little warning. With or without DLB


----------



## machavez00

that is the one thing I miss about DLB, being able to switch between programs and not lose the buffer


----------



## spartanstew

guyravad said:


> I would like DLBs to protect me from those accidental channel changes. Sometimes when a commercial hits and I forget I have been watching a 15 to 30 minute time-shifted program,


When you start watching something time delayed, just hit the record button as a safety measure.

Man, I love the workaround better than DLB.

Great for watching 2 things at once. No need to pause and switch tuners. I just keep my finger on the "previous" button and zip back and forth between shows, automatically starting from right where I left off. Beautiful.


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> When you start watching something time delayed, just hit the record button as a safety measure.
> 
> Man, I love the workaround better than DLB.
> 
> Great for watching 2 things at once. No need to pause and switch tuners. I just keep my finger on the "previous" button and zip back and forth between shows, automatically starting from right where I left off. Beautiful.


With the work around you would have to Record BOTH shows you are watching. Granted if you pause a show to answer a phone call and now have a 3 minute buffer, not using DLB at all, you would also have to record the show as that 3 minute buffer could be wiped out, real fast without the warning that is included on most other DVR's. Your way, means NEVER pause, always record then pause. Go back and delete all those shows as well, all over a 5 minute pause, recored a 3 hr show.


----------



## guyravad

spartanstew said:


> When you start watching something time delayed, just hit the record button as a safety measure.
> 
> Man, I love the workaround better than DLB.
> 
> Great for watching 2 things at once. No need to pause and switch tuners. I just keep my finger on the "previous" button and zip back and forth between shows, automatically starting from right where I left off. Beautiful.


I guess there are just too many times I have left on a channel that was time delayed hours earlier. Then I get hooked on something and forget that I'm not watching it live.

If I am watching something I really like I do hit record. It's usually the minor stuff that gets lost. But not always.

The way I see it- if Time Warner can implement it- anyone can. There must be a secret reason D* doesn't do it. Perhaps the box will implode or it will trigger a TIVO lawsuit.

What is also nice about DLBs is that you can have that great "work-around" and DLBs. They're not mutually exclusive. Everybody's happy.

DLBs will eventually come back to D*. The market will demand it. Meanwhile I'm very satisfied with almost everything else. It's only when the issue of DLBs comes up - I feel like I bought a car from the only manufacturer that doesn't believe in cup holders.:grin:


----------



## Lord Vader

Here's one reason why the workaround can be a PITA...

During the football season, oftentimes a particular game is listed in the guide as "12:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m." or "12:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m." or "3:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m." or 3:00 p.m. to 9:30 p.m." etc. (I'm in the Central Time Zone, so just add an hour to this for you Eastern folks.) Notice that there is no consistency to this. What this obviously means is that for some reason, the guide has the game listed as lasting 3 hours, 3 1/2 hours, 4 and 1/2 hours, or even a whopping 6 1/2 hours. Regardless, it wreaks havoc with your DVR if you have other recordings, say a season pass, for example, that are scheduled during the time frame in which the game is to be recorded via the workaround. And none of this even includes the mess about maybe having to manually adjust the recording in the first place. It's weird; and it's a royal pain in the ass.


----------



## spartanstew

GrumpyBear said:


> With the work around you would have to Record BOTH shows you are watching.


Yep, but I guess I don't watch as much live TV as some of you. That's why I have a DVR. To watch recorded shows and not sit through live TV and all the commercials.

I use "the workaround" strictly for sporting events. I can watch 2 football games (or any other combination of sporting events) at the same time in almost real time and not miss any action, just by pressing one button.

On the rare occasions that I do start to watch something on live TV, I usually hit record anyway (takes one second). I do that so if I find something else of interest, I can record it also and go back to the other in order to skip commercials. If I end up watching it all the way through, I just delete it the next time I'm in the List (takes another couple of seconds).

Just a matter of habits, I guess. People got used to DLB's and now think the "work around" is a bother. I think if people would have started with "the workaround" and gotten used to it and saw how easy it is to use and how it's actually better than DLB in most cases, the reactions here would be different. D* would roll out DLB, and people would say "what's that? why do we need that? We have the workaround already?"



Lord Vader said:


> Here's one reason why the workaround can be a PITA...
> 
> During the football season, oftentimes a particular game is listed in the guide as "12:00 p.m. to 4:30 p.m." or "12:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m." or "3:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m." or 3:00 p.m. to 9:30 p.m." etc. (I'm in the Central Time Zone, so just add an hour to this for you Eastern folks.) Notice that there is no consistency to this. What this obviously means is that for some reason, the guide has the game listed as lasting 3 hours, 3 1/2 hours, 4 and 1/2 hours, or even a whopping 6 1/2 hours. Regardless, it wreaks havoc with your DVR if you have other recordings, say a season pass, for example, that are scheduled during the time frame in which the game is to be recorded via the workaround. And none of this even includes the mess about maybe having to manually adjust the recording in the first place. It's weird; and it's a royal pain in the ass.


But DLB wouldn't fix that. If the game is going to last into the time period that you have something else scheduled, you won't be able to use DLB then either (cause something will be recording on one of them). In fact, "the workaround" is probably better in this instance too. If you have 2 games going from 5:00 - 8:00 PM and you start watching them via DLB, what happens at 7:00 when you have something else scheduled to record? You have about 1 minute to decide what you're going to do. With "the workaround", you'll realize there's a conflict at 5:00 when you set both of them up to record. Then you can plan how you want to handle it ahead of time (i.e. maybe you don't want to get invested in one of the games, or maybe you have another DVR that you can schedule the series on for that night, etc.).

Hey, I wouldn't mind seeing DLB either, because I'm sure in a years time there's one or two times I would find it useful. However, if people seriously tried to use and get used to "the workaround", I think most people would see that in many respects it's superior to relying on DLB's and wouldn't miss it so much.


----------



## luckydob

the workaround is nothing but a workaround. It fails....what if I have only a few % left to record on my hard drive? With DLB I NEVER have to worry about that issue.


----------



## GrumpyBear

My main comment, was why should I have to Record a 3hr show, or even a 2hr Movie, just because I have a 5 minute or so buffer? Why not give a warning when changing the channel, to remind you that you aren't "Live" yet, or remind a Family member you aren't live, as you walked out of the room for a minute(Read wife and kids). 
Buffer warning and DLB have kept ME out of trouble as well, from just changing the channel, from one of the wife's CRAZY Lifetime movies. Hit single button swap, check out ESPN or something real quick and put her CRAZY move back on, and run out of the room. Having to record her show, just to swap out for a couple of min's, is Crazy. During the NASCAR season, DLB is even MORE useful, hit swap real quick, check out the Race, go back and do other things and the wife and Kids watch there shows, play a music station or, whatever. Race gets down to the last 30 laps or so, I can sit down watch it and be happy. 5 or 6 Races had Rain delays that were so long, even with added padding time for sports, you would have missed the end of the Race recording it for safety, and 1 was cancled and moved to the follwing day, hrs worth of useless crap now recorded instead. DLB is much better for when you are home to jump around instead of having 1 90 min recording here, 30 min recording there, 60min just for fun, and so on and so on. 
DVR's are more than just a recording device nowadays. MRV, PC Media connections, VOD, PPV's, 9 day Electronic Media Guide, and other Networked media solutions. Just having a DVR for just simple recording is kind of a waste, as all you really would need is a VCR with Tape.

Granted we use DLB everyday, but I LOVE it during football season more than anything else. With a single button I jump right from one game to other, and can even use PiP, and a single button to jump between them. Normally I only use PiP for when games are getting close to the end and both are real close. DLB works great when game "A" turns into a blow out, the one I started watching and game "B", gets close, swap over and watch game "B", and can still follow game "A" incase of a comeback, and during the College season that comes in very handy. Its as easy as hitting the swap button. 

Right now is a perfect example of a non sporting event. Watching Road Warrior in HD right now, but have a indoor concrete pour tomorrow, Dad is nuts about the weather and at 20min's after the hr we get updates, can pause Road Warrior so he can get his quick weather fix, takes a few minutes, he feels good as the snow storm is still slated to hit between 1-2pm, the Trucks start arriving at 730am and last one around 10am, all is well. I now don't have to record and delete Road Warrior for this 5 min fix, and its a show we just wanted to watch, nothing real special or anything, just a good show we all agreed on. We don't have to record the last hr and 15min's, nor do we have to delete the recording afterwards. Mom and Dad would go NUTZ, without DLB, as they would have all sorts of recording, no matter what time of the yr it was, just because of weather updates. Granted I will have to do this again in 1 hr, just to make sure nothing has changed in the local forcast, and at 10 and 11pm I may have to do it twice.


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## spartanstew

GrumpyBear said:


> Granted we use DLB everyday, but I LOVE it during football season more than anything else. With a single button I jump right from one game to other,


What are you using in order to access DLB with a single button press? When I had DLB's on my Directivo's, I had to first pause the show and then access the other tuner (2 button presses). The work around only takes one.

And in your Road Warrior Example (and even more so in your race example), I wouldn't chance that even with DLB's. It would be just as easy for someone to accidentally hit channel up while checking the weather and then you lost your buffer on Road Warrior anyway. Or for your wife and kids to dump your race buffer while their checking music stations, watching a movie or whatever. That's why the workaround is better, IMO. You don't start relying on DLB and the chance of dumping the buffer is ZERO. You never miss anything regardless of what someone accidentally presses (which was someone elses complaint earlier).

As I said before, I can see how DLB could be useful occasionally, so there's not really any need to keep listing all the ways it's useful. After having DLB's for over 7 years and getting used to it, I understand. But the majority of the time, it's just as easy (and better) to use the workaround. You just have to get used to it. I have, but apparently others haven't.

Everyone is opposed to change. But guess what? Change is a constant.


----------



## luckydob

spartanstew said:


> What are you using in order to access DLB with a single button press? When I had DLB's on my Directivo's, I had to first pause the show and then access the other tuner (2 button presses). The work around only takes one.
> 
> And in your Road Warrior Example (and even more so in your race example), I wouldn't chance that even with DLB's. It would be just as easy for someone to accidentally hit channel up while checking the weather and then you lost your buffer on Road Warrior anyway. Or for your wife and kids to dump your race buffer while their checking music stations, watching a movie or whatever. That's why the workaround is better, IMO. You don't start relying on DLB and the chance of dumping the buffer is ZERO. You never miss anything regardless of what someone accidentally presses (which was someone elses complaint earlier).
> 
> As I said before, I can see how DLB could be useful occasionally, so there's not really any need to keep listing all the ways it's useful. After having DLB's for over 7 years and getting used to it, I understand. But the majority of the time, it's just as easy (and better) to use the workaround. You just have to get used to it. I have, but apparently others haven't.
> 
> Everyone is opposed to change. But guess what? Change is a constant.


I'm guessing you are not counting the button presses for: Recording, going to the list and selecting the programs, after viewing going back to list...finding said programs and then deleting them.

I'll take: pause and down over that mess of button mashing any day.


----------



## spartanstew

luckydob said:


> I'm guessing you are not counting the button presses for: Recording, going to the list and selecting the programs, after viewing going back to list...finding said programs and then deleting them.
> 
> I'll take: pause and down over that mess of button mashing any day.


You're right, I'm not. That takes less than 30 seconds at the start of watching the shows. After that, it's a single button press.

As for deleting, I delete them the next time I'm in the list.

I wouldn't call that a mess of button mashing all day. For 2 programs, it's a total of SIX button presses (record, list,play, record, list, play - you don't have to select the program because it will be at the top of the list), not counting getting to the correct channel which you'd have to do anyway. It takes SIX button presses to switch DLB's almost right off the bat too (pause, switch, play, pause, switch, play), and then you're repeating that all day. If one of these methods constitutes "a mess of button mashing all day", I believe that crown would go to DLB usage.

6 button presses at the start of recording two things is really too much of an effort?

I think people are just nitpicking now for the sake of nitpicking.


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> What are you using in order to access DLB with a single button press? When I had DLB's on my Directivo's, I had to first pause the show and then access the other tuner (2 button presses). The work around only takes one.
> 
> And in your Road Warrior Example (and even more so in your race example), I wouldn't chance that even with DLB's. It would be just as easy for someone to accidentally hit channel up while checking the weather and then you lost your buffer on Road Warrior anyway. Or for your wife and kids to dump your race buffer while their checking music stations, watching a movie or whatever. That's why the workaround is better, IMO. You don't start relying on DLB and the chance of dumping the buffer is ZERO. You never miss anything regardless of what someone accidentally presses (which was someone elses complaint earlier).
> 
> As I said before, I can see how DLB could be useful occasionally, so there's not really any need to keep listing all the ways it's useful. After having DLB's for over 7 years and getting used to it, I understand. But the majority of the time, it's just as easy (and better) to use the workaround. You just have to get used to it. I have, but apparently others haven't.
> 
> Everyone is opposed to change. But guess what? Change is a constant.


You are missing the point, with the ViP, and like "guyravad" was pointing out, he had a Warning, on his Cable DVR, and now for him, its MISSING on the Direct DVR, you can't just change the channel when you are watching a show in the buffer, it gives you, and OTHERS in the house, a warning and asks you want to go "Live", nice little warning, and you have to say yes, before you can change the channel. So there is no ACCIDENTAL dumping of the buffer, ZERO chance of it, as you have to SAY yes, before going "Live". Like I said, my comment was, if they aren't going to give you DLB, why not at least give you the Warning about going "Live" before the buffer is flushed.
So you see, in my Road Warrior example, nobody just changes the channel, by accident, they will get a pop-up on the bottom of the screen, show is still playing, but it wont change just because they pushed a button, so the Movie is safe, and more importantly, so is the Nascar Race.

As for the DLB on ViP, its a single button on the Remote, its called Swap, and it jumps from one buffer to the other buffer, just that fast, and its faster than changing a channel. You also get PiP button, and the same Swap button, jumps you from one to the other, nothing else to push.


----------



## James Long

GrumpyBear said:


> As for the DLB on ViP, its a single button on the Remote, its called Swap, and it jumps from one buffer to the other buffer, just that fast, and its faster than changing a channel. You also get PiP button, and the same Swap button, jumps you from one to the other, nothing else to push.


Works nice. I just wish it worked with a few more HD channels. (Speed HD, etc.)

(Chances are we'll get the HD before the HR-2x gets DLB. )


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> Works nice. I just wish it worked with a few more HD channels. (Speed HD, etc.)
> 
> (Chances are we'll get the HD before the HR-2x gets DLB. )


Its not so much the HD channels, as there are way to many HD channels with little to no HD content(not saying there aren't a few channels I would LOVE/KILL to have, Speed and FX being 2 of them. What I want is the NFL ST, only Direct has it. I wont Spend that kind of Money for NFL ST, without certain features built into the DVR, DLB being one of them. There are other Family issues, features that they need, but its hard to go to bat, without DLB, and Autotune. I have a better understanding now on the Autotune issue with Direct, and hope that Steve gets a campaign going to get all the Data sent down into the guide for Direct.
So before I battle the Family, I at least need my features. So come on DLB.


----------



## Doug Brott

luckydob said:


> the workaround is nothing but a workaround. It fails....what if I have only a few % left to record on my hard drive? With DLB I NEVER have to worry about that issue.


Perhaps, but if you only have a few % left, you have to worry about this anyway regardless of DLB.


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## Doug Brott

Probably bears repeating now .. since we are discussing the mechanics again.

*Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #3*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Press {LIST} and play Show 2
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> Show 1 and Show 2 can be currently recording - you do not have to wait until they are complete
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x290 and above ..


Of course, to watch two "live" programs, you will have to start the recordings for each of these programs first and then play each of them from the list - the {R} key works well for that

[table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
2 | swap tuners | Record
3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
5 | | List
6 | | Play 1
7 | | List
8 | | Play 2
9 | | toggle
[/table]

Nobody is denying that "real" DLB is better .. The workaround is a way that folks can do something to to use their receiver in a better way given the current limitations. I've found this method very usable. It takes (1) a very small amount of extra setup, (2) adequate disk space - which is never an issue with me, and (3) deleting 2 programs when you are finished.

There are ways to mimic other uses of DLB, but for someone truly bouncing around and doing channel surfing on 2 different tuners at the same time, the workarounds are not as helpful.


----------



## Que

Doug you might want to talk about padding those recording too (How to do it). In sports most of the time it goes over the guide data, ending the recording. Is that another step? Something easy to do?


----------



## spartanstew

GrumpyBear said:


> You are missing the point,


Gotcha.

But that's part of the problem too. Everyone has a different view of what it is. Some want Tivo's implementation (which didn't have any such warning), some want Dish implementation, etc.

I have a feeling that even if D* did implement DLB, people would still complain, because it wasn't exactly what they were used to.


----------



## say-what

Doug Brott said:


> Probably bears repeating now .. since we are discussing the mechanics again.
> 
> [table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
> 5 | | List
> 6 | | Play 1
> 7 | | List
> 8 | | Play 2
> 9 | | toggle
> [/table]


Actually, the workaround is simpler than you've set forth. You can skip steps 5-8 since once you press record the HR2x immediately switches to the recording buffer and you can jump between programs with the full record buffer and the HR2x does retain pause points in the recording program(s). I just double checked with my HR21 and it does retain a pause point after I start a recording, change channels and jump back via the PREV button.

So there is really just one additional step:
[table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
2 | swap tuners | Record (or Record/pause)
3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record (or Record/pause)
5 | | toggle (or pause/toggle)
[/table]


----------



## kanderna

Que said:


> Doug you might want to talk about padding those recording too (How to do it). In sports most of the time it goes over the guide data, ending the recording. Is that another step? Something easy to do?


+1 This has burned me on a few occasions using the workaround. Recording ends, I miss the end of the game, and am returned to live TV.


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> But that's part of the problem too. Everyone has a different view of what it is. Some want Tivo's implementation (which didn't have any such warning), some want Dish implementation, etc.
> 
> I have a feeling that even if D* did implement DLB, people would still complain, because it wasn't exactly what they were used to.


There is NO way to make everybody happy, just like you say.

At least you can understand why those of us that have DVR's with a warning about the Buffer before going Live, don't need to record everything. Its not just Dish either.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> Probably bears repeating now .. since we are discussing the mechanics again.
> 
> *Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*
> 
> Of course, to watch two "live" programs, you will have to start the recordings for each of these programs first and then play each of them from the list - the {R} key works well for that
> 
> [table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
> 5 | | List
> 6 | | Play 1
> 7 | | List
> 8 | | Play 2
> 9 | | toggle
> [/table]


True, it's a few more steps but after the setup it's *almost* like DLB.

However, in the TiVo days, I'd select a channel on one tuner while surfing on the other.

With the work around, I have to constantly go back to the list to swap to the other "tuner".

It's so cumbersome that I don't do it anymore. Woe is me. 

I prefer to believe "something better" is coming. 

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> Probably bears repeating now .. since we are discussing the mechanics again.
> 
> *Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*
> 
> Of course, to watch two "live" programs, you will have to start the recordings for each of these programs first and then play each of them from the list - the {R} key works well for that
> 
> [table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
> 5 | | List
> 6 | | Play 1
> 7 | | List
> 8 | | Play 2
> 9 | | toggle
> [/table]


That's not 100% correct either. Since you're now recording stuff to the list you need to add the house cleaning aspect of it too. Of course that means more button presses.

[table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
2 | swap tuners | Record
3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
5 | | List
6 | | Play 1
7 | | List
8 | | Play 2
9 | | toggle
10 | | List
11 | | Select 1, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
12 | | List
13 | | Select 2, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
[/table]

Left out are also the several button presses for navigating the list for list selection and house cleaning operations, so might as well add another 5-10 just navigation.

So for obvious reasons the workaround is actually nowhere near DLB, and if some prefer it, or rather, want us to prefer that method (see Jedi Mind Trick, JMT) then more power to them. But for me I find it an incredibly more difficult task than what it ought to be, and frankly, quite ridiculous and laughable that that's all D* can come up with. But thanks anyhow


----------



## dennisj00

Slightly off topic but goes with dumping the buffer. . . I'd certainly like to see some warning (or double entry) on the Active button. It's too close to the Pause button and had burned me way more often than I've used the Active button!!


----------



## Doug Brott

Que said:


> Doug you might want to talk about padding those recording too (How to do it). In sports most of the time it goes over the guide data, ending the recording. Is that another step? Something easy to do?


Not normally a consideration for me as NFL ST it typically padded much longer than the game .. However, you can add padding to any currently recording program .. and yeah again .. that's why it's a workaround, but that is the only option at this point in time.


----------



## Doug Brott

say-what said:


> Actually, the workaround is simpler than you've set forth. You can skip steps 5-8 since once you press record the HR2x immediately switches to the recording buffer and you can jump between programs with the full record buffer and the HR2x does retain pause points in the recording program(s). I just double checked with my HR21 and it does retain a pause point after I start a recording, change channels and jump back via the PREV button.
> 
> So there is really just one additional step:
> [table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record (or Record/pause)
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record (or Record/pause)
> 5 | | toggle (or pause/toggle)
> [/table]


I'm not sure this actually works the way you expect it to .. I'm pretty sure you need to actually go into the listing and play from the listing or it will not really toggle correctly .. perhaps someone can confirm.


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> That's not 100% correct either. Since you're now recording stuff to the list you need to add the house cleaning aspect of it too. Of course that means more button presses.
> 
> [table="head;width=29em]*Step* | *Real DLB* | *Workaround*
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
> 5 | | List
> 6 | | Play 1
> 7 | | List
> 8 | | Play 2
> 9 | | toggle
> 10 | | List
> 11 | | Select 1, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
> 12 | | List
> 13 | | Select 2, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
> [/table]
> 
> Left out are also the several button presses for navigating the list for list selection and house cleaning operations, so might as well add another 5-10 just navigation.
> 
> So for obvious reasons the workaround is actually nowhere near DLB, and if some prefer it, or rather, want us to prefer that method (see Jedi Mind Trick, JMT) then more power to them. But for me I find it an incredibly more difficult task than what it ought to be, and frankly, quite ridiculous and laughable that that's all D* can come up with. But thanks anyhow


Sure you have to delete, but if you are using the DVR as a recorder (I assume most people are ) you have to delete a lot of programs.

As for "no where near?" Heck even in your expanded instructions it sure looks "near" to me. Secondly who said anything about wanting you to "prefer" this method .. If you don't want to use it .. don't. For those that do want to use it .. great! .. it's one way to "workaround" the fact that DLB is not currently a feature on the HR2x.


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh and as for wasting time setting up and breaking down for the workaround .. I'm sure I've spent a LOT more time in this one thread then I will ever spend setting up the workaround (combined).


----------



## spartanstew

Flyrx7 said:


> That's not 100% correct either. Since you're now recording stuff to the list you need to add the house cleaning aspect of it too.


don't you ever go in the list anyway? The next time you're there, you can't delete a couple of things? How long would that take? 10 seconds?



Flyrx7 said:


> But for me I find it an incredibly more difficult task than what it ought to be,


Man, has our society really come to that? Has our society really become that much of an "I want it now" place? Spending, at most, 10 seconds to set it up and another 10 seconds to delete them next time you're in the list is considered "incredibly more difficult"?

Like I said before, if everyone were used to this and then DLB's came out (like it was with D*TiVo's), everyone would be complaining anyway:

"With the old version, after setting it up, I could just hit the previous version and switch shows, now with this darn DLB thing, I actually have to hit pause, then switch tuners and then play. What was D* thinking?"

Is there sometimes DLB would be better? Sure. Do I wish I had it? Sure. But the workaround is very good and in most cases (just switching between 2 shows) is better, if people would just give it some time and get used to it.

Unfortunately sometimes nobody wants to try anything "new" when it's easier to complain.

That being said, I'll leave you all to your complaining and hopefully your version of DLB will be implemented at some time and this thread can be closed.

Until then, happy new year.


----------



## Herdfan

Lord Vader said:


> I dunno. Is it just me, or is Quick Tune just a "ho hum" feature? If it's good for anything,


Actually, it is very good for getting the SD Weather Channel so I can get my local on the 8's. It is the only channel I have in there so Up, Select gets my my locals.


----------



## spartanstew

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure this actually works the way you expect it to .. I'm pretty sure you need to actually go into the listing and play from the listing or it will not really toggle correctly .. perhaps someone can confirm.


Correct. You have to go into the list.

If you don't, it will toggle, but won't auto pause. Each time you toggle back the show will have no buffer.


----------



## say-what

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure this actually works the way you expect it to .. I'm pretty sure you need to actually go into the listing and play from the listing or it will not really toggle correctly .. perhaps someone can confirm.


I tried it immediately before my first post using 1 recording and just now using 2 recordings and never had to go into the playlist - paused both and playback resumed just prior to the pause point when returning via PREV. Yes, you have to pause to maintain your place, and that's what I said, but that's easier than going into the list.


----------



## puffnstuff

spartanstew said:


> It takes SIX button presses to switch DLB's almost right off the bat too (pause, switch, play, pause, switch, play)


Sorry if I missed something but why do you have to press pause ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

A lot depends upon what service you want from DLB. I don't want pause, I just want two buffers for live sporting events. If I need to back up, I will; but most of the time I want to jump from live to live of two or more games. (In the more games scenario, I typically have one buffer on the Packers game and switch the other buffer on the other games of interest that day.)

Others want to see every second of the two events so want to pause between buffers and skip commercials (and other boring items) at their control. The work arounds tend to support this model better.

Peace,
Tom


----------



## guyravad

spartanstew said:


> What are you using in order to access DLB with a single button press? When I had DLB's on my Directivo's, I had to first pause the show and then access the other tuner (2 button presses). The work around only takes one.


I never had a TIVO but the Time Warner box implemented DLBs very well. There were no button presses it simply kept up to 90 minutes of the last two channels tuned in.

The main problem with the workaround is you have to remember to do it. I prefer a passive safety net.


----------



## kanderna

Tom Robertson said:


> Peace,
> Tom


This is WAY off topic, but I must say to you Tom... tsk, tsk, tsk. You take a perfectly good avatar of your grandchildren and replace it with a Lions helmet? :nono: And to do so willingly??? :nono2: Definite downgrade. You MUST have lost a bet! :lol:


----------



## n3ntj

I noticed over Christmas that my parent's HD DVR from Time Warner actually has a modified dual live buffer feature. I can't believe their's has DLB and our HR2x series units from D* still lacks this needed feature. I almost am jealous of my parents..

C'mon D*. Please implement DLB on the HR2x series!! We've been asking for this feature for over 2 years.


----------



## GrumpyBear

n3ntj said:


> I noticed over Christmas that my parent's HD DVR from Time Warner actually has a modified dual live buffer feature. I can't believe their's has DLB and our HR2x series units from D* still lacks this needed feature. I almost am jealous of my parents..
> 
> C'mon D*. Please implement DLB on the HR2x series!! We've been asking for this feature for over 2 years.


You may envy your parents DVR, I will bet good money you don't envy their overall service.


----------



## kanderna

kanderna said:


> This is WAY off topic, but I must say to you Tom... tsk, tsk, tsk. You take a perfectly good avatar of your grandchildren and replace it with a Lions helmet? :nono: And to do so willingly??? :nono2: Definite downgrade. You MUST have lost a bet! :lol:


Ah... should have read your sig first. Now it all makes sense.


----------



## Tom Robertson

kanderna said:


> This is WAY off topic, but I must say to you Tom... tsk, tsk, tsk. You take a perfectly good avatar of your grandchildren and replace it with a Lions helmet? :nono: And to do so willingly??? :nono2: Definite downgrade. You MUST have lost a bet! :lol:


The signature says it all... 5 more days...


----------



## GrumpyBear

kanderna said:


> This is WAY off topic, but I must say to you Tom... tsk, tsk, tsk. You take a perfectly good avatar of your grandchildren and replace it with a Lions helmet? :nono: And to do so willingly??? :nono2: Definite downgrade. You MUST have lost a bet! :lol:


I couldn't figure out who that was. I saw the name, but the Avatar was wrong, and thought it was somebody else. Had to look at the Salt Lake City to confirm. 0-16 talk about some REALLY cool history.


----------



## spartanstew

puffnstuff said:


> Sorry if I missed something but why do you have to press pause ?


Well, apparently evey unit does it different. On the DLB that I used on my old Directivo, you had to hit pause. If you didn't, when you switched, you'd be current with live TV which kind of defeats the purpose of the buffer part of DLB.


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> Probably bears repeating now .. since we are discussing the mechanics again.
> 
> *Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*
> 
> Of course, to watch two "live" programs, you will have to start the recordings for each of these programs first and then play each of them from the list - the {R} key works well for that
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the workaround is simpler than you've set forth. You can skip steps 5-8 since once you press record the HR2x immediately switches to the recording buffer and you can jump between programs with the full record buffer and the HR2x does retain pause points in the recording program(s). I just double checked with my HR21 and it does retain a pause point after I start a recording, change channels and jump back via the PREV button.
> 
> So there is really just one additional step:
> 
> 
> That's not 100% correct either. Since you're now recording stuff to the list you need to add the house cleaning aspect of it too. Of course that means more button presses.
> 
> [table="head;width=29em]
> *Step*
> |
> *Real DLB*
> |
> *Workaround*
> 
> 1 | Find Channel 1 | Find Channel 1
> 2 | swap tuners | Record
> 3 | Find Channel 2 | Find Channel 2
> 4 | toggle (or pause/toggle) | Record
> 5 | | List
> 6 | | Play 1
> 7 | | List
> 8 | | Play 2
> 9 | | toggle
> 10 | | List
> 11 | | Select 1, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
> 12 | | List
> 13 | | Select 2, Double dash delete, or select delete at end of showing
> 
> 
> Left out are also the several button presses for navigating the list for list selection and house cleaning operations, so might as well add another 5-10 just navigation.
> 
> So for obvious reasons the workaround is actually nowhere near DLB, and if some prefer it, or rather, want us to prefer that method (see Jedi Mind Trick, JMT) then more power to them. But for me I find it an incredibly more difficult task than what it ought to be, and frankly, quite ridiculous and laughable that that's all D* can come up with. But thanks anyhow






OK, if one were to hold an exam on the steps needed to do this or true DLB, who'd want to bet many would fail the exam, not having been able to remember exactly all the steps needed; whereas with DLB, it's tremendously simpler.


----------



## puffnstuff

spartanstew said:


> Well, apparently evey unit does it different. On the DLB that I used on my old Directivo, you had to hit pause. If you didn't, when you switched, you'd be current with live TV which kind of defeats the purpose of the buffer part of DLB.


What do you mean when you switch ? Everytime you switch tuners it should be back to live TV , I've never seen it work any other way . Is their a DVR that does auto pause ?


----------



## spartanstew

puffnstuff said:


> What do you mean when you switch ? Everytime you switch tuners it should be back to live TV , I've never seen it work any other way . Is their a DVR that does auto pause ?


Someone said there was.

And if there's not one that does autopause, why did you ask me why you have to press pause? Obviously you have to press pause so that when you come back to that station, the program is right where you left off.


----------



## spartanstew

Lord Vader said:


> OK, if one were to hold an exam on the steps needed to do this or true DLB, who'd want to bet many would fail the exam, not having been able to remember exactly all the steps needed; whereas with DLB, it's tremendously simpler.


It's only simpler to those that used DLB first.

People that might get a DVR for the first time right now and start using the workaround would probably find it simpler than DLB if they suddenly went to that.

DLB:

Locate channel to watch
pause
swap tuners
locate second channel
pause
switch
press play

each time thereafter:
pause
switch 
play

WA:

Locate channel to watch
Record
Locate second channel
Record
List
Play
List 
Play
Previous

each time thereafter:
previous

I don't see anything tremendously simpler about the first one. It seems simpler to you, because you're used to hitting pause, then switching tuners, then hitting play EVERY time you switch. Just like for someone used to the current way is used to hitting record, then list, then play.

IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


----------



## Steve

spartanstew said:


> WA:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> Record
> Locate second channel
> Record
> List
> Play
> List
> Play
> Previous
> 
> each time thereafter:
> previous


Nice summary.

Actually folks with universal remotes with macro capability could construct a macro that takes the last two channels manually tuned to and executes steps 2-8 above automatically, using a PREV command in place of the "locate second channel" in step 3.

/steve


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> It's only simpler to those that used DLB first.
> 
> People that might get a DVR for the first time right now and start using the workaround would probably find it simpler than DLB if they suddenly went to that.
> 
> DLB:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> pause
> swap tuners
> locate second channel
> pause
> switch
> press play
> 
> each time thereafter:
> pause
> switch
> play
> 
> WA:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> Record
> Locate second channel
> Record
> List
> Play
> List
> Play
> Previous
> 
> each time thereafter:
> previous
> 
> I don't see anything tremendously simpler about the first one. It seems simpler to you, because you're used to hitting pause, then switching tuners, then hitting play EVERY time you switch. Just like for someone used to the current way is used to hitting record, then list, then play.
> 
> IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


Get rid of all those pauses in the DLB Section. Nobody has to pause to swap tuners, you just press swap, and you go just go to the other tuner. You made DLB way to busy.


----------



## dennisj00

spartanstew said:


> IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


No it's not that difficult, but there are tons of threads on this board that advocate the DVR doing things for YOU instead of you doing things to work around.

The workaround comes up way short if your program goes beyond the scheduled time and you haven't padded enough, if you're short on available space. . . the buffers don't interfere with that space, and you have to delete multiple shows. Yes, maybe only a few seconds to do that BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!

We have two tuners, we need two buffers, very simple, very easy.

IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT, Give us a down arrow, a second buffer and we're done! Those that like the workaround can continue to use it! Everybody's happy.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

spartanstew said:


> It's only simpler to those that used DLB first.
> 
> People that might get a DVR for the first time right now and start using the workaround would probably find it simpler than DLB if they suddenly went to that.
> 
> DLB:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> pause
> swap tuners
> locate second channel
> pause
> switch
> press play
> 
> each time thereafter:
> pause
> switch
> play
> 
> WA:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> Record
> Locate second channel
> Record
> List
> Play
> List
> Play
> Previous
> 
> each time thereafter:
> previous
> 
> I don't see anything tremendously simpler about the first one. It seems simpler to you, because you're used to hitting pause, then switching tuners, then hitting play EVERY time you switch. Just like for someone used to the current way is used to hitting record, then list, then play.
> 
> IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


Put one tuner on a channel and surf on the other.

Say what you like but DLB as we know it works this way. It's also one of the ways my family used DLB (in addition to the other ways already mentioned)

The work around is completely impractical in the case. You have to go back to the list *each* time you want what's on the "other tuner".

So yeah, it can be that difficult. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> OK, if one were to hold an exam on the steps needed to do this or true DLB, who'd want to bet many would fail the exam, not having been able to remember exactly all the steps needed; whereas with DLB, it's tremendously simpler.


I wouldn't take that bet ..


----------



## puffnstuff

spartanstew said:


> Someone said there was.
> 
> And if there's not one that does autopause, why did you ask me why you have to press pause? Obviously you have to press pause so that when you come back to that station, the program is right where you left off.





GrumpyBear said:


> Get rid of all those pauses in the DLB Section. Nobody has to pause to swap tuners, you just press swap, and you go just go to the other tuner. You made DLB way to busy.


For exactly this reason , DLB has never auto paused that's what concerns me with Directv's work around .


----------



## Doug Brott

dennisj00 said:


> The workaround comes up way short if your program goes beyond the scheduled time and you haven't padded enough, if you're short on available space. . . the buffers don't interfere with that space, and you have to delete multiple shows. Yes, maybe only a few seconds to do that BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO!


Yes, "automatic" would make things a bit simpler. We don't have that as everyone knows. The workaround is great for actually watching 2 things live .. If you are really watching two things live. What many folks seem to be looking for is a way to bounce around .. perhaps anchoring on one program, perhaps not .. but to literally channel surf ..

The workaround won't give you that and there is nothing in the HR2x that will make that work at present.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> For exactly this reason , DLB has never auto paused that's what concerns me with Directv's work around .


I don't really know why this is the case, but I suspect that DIRECTV's pause is similar to how a program is "paused" when you exit the program to Live TV or another recording.


----------



## RCY

MicroBeta said:


> Put one tuner on a channel and surf on the other.
> 
> Say what you like but DLB as we know it works this way. It's also one of the ways my family used DLB (in addition to the other ways already mentioned)
> 
> The work around is completely impractical in the case. You have to go back to the list *each* time you want what's on the "other tuner".
> 
> So yeah, it can be that difficult. :grin:
> 
> Mike


+1

If you're convinced you only want to watch two specific programs, the workaround is a practical substitute. (Assuming you pad your programs in the case of sports. Another step, but not a difficult one.)

But for anything resembling "surfing" its useless, IMO.


----------



## Flyrx7

I find it humorous that people are trying to say that multiple button presses or universal remote macros to implement the DLB workaround as "not that difficult", or even saying that the work around is better. Your JMT isn't working on me. Down button is as simple as it gets. What part of that don't you understand?

The ones stating that it isn't rocket science or that difficult to do then can go ahead a continue with their methods, as it appears to work for how they use it. I'll continue to hold out for true DLB. Sure it may take awhile, but I won't be going anywhere until we get it.


----------



## Flyrx7

GrumpyBear said:


> Get rid of all those pauses in the DLB Section. Nobody has to pause to swap tuners, you just press swap, and you go just go to the other tuner. You made DLB way to busy.


While I understand the want for the autopause feature, I don't think it's necessary. If you want to resume at the spot when you get back, then pause it manually before you switch.

Now an autobookmark might be nice, but probably not necessary as well.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Flyrx7 said:


> While I understand the want for the autopause feature, I don't think it's necessary. If you want to resume at the spot when you get back, then pause it manually before you switch.
> 
> Now an autobookmark might be nice, but probably not necessary as well.


No the the Pause's were put into his DLB comparison, as he used to use a DLB system that required him to Pause, and then select the other tuner. You couldn't just go from tuner 1 to tuner 2. Nowadays, on the competion, going from tuner 1 to tuner 2, is as simple as 1 button.


----------



## Steve

GrumpyBear said:


> No the the Pause's were put into his DLB comparison, as he used to use a DLB system that required him to Pause, and then select the other tuner. You couldn't just go from tuner 1 to tuner 2. Nowadays, on the competion, going from tuner 1 to tuner 2, is as simple as 1 button.


Are you talking about Dish? Unless it's changed in the past year or so, on the DirecTiVo's (from where many of us HR2x owners migrated), the down button switched tuners, but it didn't auto-pause them. /steve


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> It's only simpler to those that used DLB first.
> 
> People that might get a DVR for the first time right now and start using the workaround would probably find it simpler than DLB if they suddenly went to that.
> 
> DLB:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> pause
> swap tuners
> locate second channel
> pause
> switch
> press play
> 
> each time thereafter:
> pause
> switch
> play
> 
> WA:
> 
> Locate channel to watch
> Record
> Locate second channel
> Record
> List
> Play
> List
> Play
> Previous
> 
> each time thereafter:
> previous
> 
> I don't see anything tremendously simpler about the first one. It seems simpler to you, because you're used to hitting pause, then switching tuners, then hitting play EVERY time you switch. Just like for someone used to the current way is used to hitting record, then list, then play.
> 
> IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


Ok,
In Spartanstews write up of the process, he has a 
_*DLB:

Locate channel to watch
pause
swap tuners
locate second channel
pause
switch
press play

each time thereafter:
pause
switch 
play*_
He has all the pause's before the swap tuners, as with his old Tivo unit he had to pause Tuner1, before he could swap over to tuner2. These pauses are NOT needed, as Most other DVR's have a single button(Spartanstew, didn't realize it could be done with a single button either) that allows you to swap between the buffers. As for a Autopause, not sure I would use that feature, as I normally swap over during a commerical break anyways, to surf on the other buffer.


----------



## Steve

GrumpyBear said:


> He has all the pause's before the swap tuners, as with his old Tivo unit he had to pause Tuner1, before he could swap over to tuner2. These pauses are NOT needed, as Most other DVR's have a single button(Spartanstew, didn't realize it could be done with a single button either) that allows you to swap between the buffers. As for a Autopause, not sure I would use that feature, as I normally swap over during a commerical break anyways, to surf on the other buffer.


He has the pause there because he wants to pause before he leaves, so when he comes back he can resume where he left off. Otherwise on a TiVO, down arrow just switches tuners and the buffer you left keeps advancing. /steve


----------



## puffnstuff

Doug Brott said:


> I don't really know why this is the case, but I suspect that DIRECTV's pause is similar to how a program is "paused" when you exit the program to Live TV or another recording.


Understandable , if that's what it takes to get us there . Baby steps ( Don't have any kids , when do they start walking ? )



Steve said:


> Are you talking about Dish? Unless it's changed in the past year or so, on the DirecTiVo's (from where many of us HR2x owners migrated), the down button switched tuners, but it didn't auto-pause them. /steve


I haven't found one that does auto pause in my brief search , or have ever used one .


----------



## spartanstew

Flyrx7 said:


> I find it humorous that people are trying to say that multiple button presses or universal remote macros to implement the DLB workaround as "not that difficult",


Unless you have whatever version supposedly does autopause, the workaround is LESS button presses. That's what you keep failing to realize. If D* does implement DLB, I don't think it will have autopause. It will probably work just like it did with D*Tivo's, which means EVERY time you want to switch tuners you have 3 button presses (pause, switch, play). EVERY time. That's multiple button presses.

I find it humorous that people think pressing record/list/play (3 button presses) ONCE at the beginning is difficult, but those same people think pressing 3 buttons repeatedly throughout the day to swap tuners is easy. Remarkable.

Forget it's about DLB. If I told you D* was going to implement a new feature, but it could work one of two ways: One way you'd have to press about 9 buttons to get it working and then for the next 2 hours you'd have to press 1 button every 15 minutes of so. The other way you'd have press about 7 buttons to get if working and then for the next 2 hours you'd have to press 3 buttons every 15 minutes. Which way would you want it? Duh, the one with less button presses. Guess what? The one with less button presses (even if you include the presses needed to delete), is the one every keeps saying has "multiple button presses" and is "difficult"

I get it that people can't live without DLB, but don't make outrageous claims, exaggerate and make things up. It makes the argument seem weaker.



Flyrx7 said:


> The ones stating that it isn't rocket science or that difficult to do then can go ahead a continue with their methods, as it appears to work for how they use it. I'll continue to hold out for true DLB. Sure it may take awhile, but I won't be going anywhere until we get it.


OK, you can continue to wait. In the meantime, I'll continue to watch 2 channels at once in all their glory. Right now I'm watching the Junior Championship Hockey Game AND the Texas/OSU football game and loving it.

edit: IF it was implemented with auto-pause, then it would be a much better feature and I would probably use it more. But the current workaround is not terrible, or difficult or confusing or any of the other things that have been said.


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> What are you using in order to access DLB with a single button press? When I had DLB's on my Directivo's, I had to first pause the show and then access the other tuner (2 button presses). The work around only takes one.


Steve,
As you can see, Spartanstew, had to Pause before switching tuners.
You don't need to pause to switch tuners. Just Swap, single button.


----------



## Steve

GrumpyBear said:


> Steve,
> As you can see, Spartanstew, had to Pause before switching tuners.
> You don't need to pause to switch tuners. Just Swap, single button.


Ya, but he paused because he wanted to freeze the tuner he wasn't watching. He didn't have to pause to swap tuners.

The REC/REC workaround autopauses, because that's how HR2x's work. When you exit a recording, it bookmarks your spot, so no need to hit PAUSE. That's why he's saying it's one less step... if that's what you want. PAUSE.

For someone who doesn't want to PAUSE when switching tuners, all you have to do on a TiVo is hit DOWN ARROW. /steve


----------



## spartanstew

Steve said:


> For someone who doesn't want to PAUSE when switching tuners, all you have to do on a TiVo is hit DOWN ARROW. /steve


But if you're trying to watch 2 shows, why would you not want to pause when switching? That's the whole point of DLB (b stands for buffer). If you don't want to pause the show, then there's no need to switch tuners at all. Just change the channel. You can do that now.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Steve said:


> Ya, but he paused because he wanted to freeze the tuner he wasn't watching. He didn't have to pause to swap tuners.
> 
> The REC/REC workaround autopauses, because that's how HR2x's work. When you exit a recording, it bookmarks your spot, so no need to hit PAUSE. That's why he's saying it's one less step... if that's what you want. PAUSE.
> 
> For someone who doesn't want to PAUSE when switching tuners, all you have to do on a TiVo is hit DOWN ARROW. /steve


I guess it was the wording, saying he had to Pause the 1st tuner to access the 2nd tuner, always took 2 buttons(granted I could careless about button count) 
Tonight is a great example of DLB with PiP, granted don't need the PiP, watching the game on Tuner1, and surfing on Tuner 2, between the 2 local news stations. Keeping up on the weather and road updates. May have to go and pickup Sister-in-Law at work, she doesn't have the right car for the roads tonight.


----------



## Steve

spartanstew said:


> But if you're trying to watch 2 shows, why would you not want to pause when switching? That's the whole point of DLB (b stands for buffer). If you don't want to pause the show, then there's no need to switch tuners at all. Just change the channel. You can do that now.


I don't disagree. When I had it, I wished the TiVo had AUTOPAUSE. I was just responding to *Grumpybear *who said:



> As for a Autopause, not sure I would use that feature, as I normally swap over during a commerical break anyways, to surf on the other buffer.


/steve


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> But if you're trying to watch 2 shows, why would you not want to pause when switching? That's the whole point of DLB (b stands for buffer). If you don't want to pause the show, then there's no need to switch tuners at all. Just change the channel. You can do that now.


Normal jumping between football games, is when Game "A" goes to a LONG commerical Break during a timeout, or change of half. Switch to Game "B" for a quick update, and jumpback. You swapped over to miss the 5min's of Commericals. Or you have nailed down Tuner 1 to one show and are surfing between a couple of shows on tuner like tonight. Game on tuner1, KHQ, and KREM update weather and roads, oppisite of each other, catch weather on KHQ, and then Catch the Roads on KREM, on tuner2


----------



## spartanstew

GrumpyBear said:


> Normal jumping between football games, is when Game "A" goes to a LONG commerical Break during a timeout, or change of half. Switch to Game "B" for a quick update, and jumpback. You swapped over to miss the 5min's of Commericals. Or you have nailed down Tuner 1 to one show and are surfing between a couple of shows on tuner like tonight. Game on tuner1, KHQ, and KREM update weather and roads, oppisite of each other, catch weather on KHQ, and then Catch the Roads on KREM, on tuner2


You can do most of that pretty quickly right now with the QuickTune.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

spartanstew said:


> Right now I'm watching the Junior Championship Hockey Game AND the Texas/OSU football game and loving it.


Same here. But just imagine if we had PIP. :sure:


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> You can do most of that pretty quickly right now with the QuickTune.


It would be pretty hard to do, actually.
I would have to start Recording this 4hr football game(NOT the end of the world, but goes against the grain to Record what I am watching). I would then have to record the 1st 15min's of KHQ, so I get the weather, and then record the last 15min's of KREM, at both the Top and Bottom of the HR. With DLB, Watch the game, commercial break. Swap over Catch the weather, as I rewind to the 2-3mins of the weather I wanted, change the channel, go back to the game. Next Convienent Commerial Break, jump over rewind to and get the Road report. If no convient Commerial break is coming up, hit PiP, so I don't miss any action of the game. I have no recordings and your way, I would have 5 recordings. 
As for Not wanting to pause, NASCAR is a great reason, I like to just keep up on the race, 3-4 hrs long, and most of it comes down to the last 30 or so laps. I just want a quick update, and can rewind if I want too. Blow out football games are another reason NOT to pause, I only go back when I see the score change for the good, and things may get interesting again. Its to hard NOT to know whats going on in the other game, as all the FOX, CBS, ABC, BigTen Network, and Fox Sports, keep the updates in different parts of the screen. Why pause a game, that I just want to see the action I saw updated on with the scores, or just to see whats happening during a lull in the game I am watching, and the game now has a 55min pause going on, and have to Hit Live mode and rewind. Could careless what happend in the other 50min's.


----------



## spartanstew

True in that case Grumpy. Since you were responding to my question about why would you not want to pause, I was giving a suggestion to use IF you in fact didn't need to pause.

If you just want to flip back and forth between 2 or more shows, you can just use QuickTune.


----------



## spartanstew

theratpatrol said:


> Same here. But just imagine if we had PIP. :sure:


Yep, had it on my last TV and got a bit used to it. My new TV doesn't have it and we miss it (we've always had 2 DVR's hooked up to the display).

I'd much rather have PIP than DLB, since there's ZERO workaround for PIP.


----------



## puffnstuff

spartanstew said:


> That's the whole point of DLB (b stands for buffer).


L stands for live .


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:



> True in that case Grumpy. Since you were responding to my question about why would you not want to pause, I was giving a suggestion to use IF you in fact didn't need to pause.
> 
> If you just want to flip back and forth between 2 or more shows, you can just use QuickTune.


Quicktune wouldn't do it though. I would have to setup recordings for the 1st 15min's of one show, and the last of another show. Quicktune just keeps me from having to hit 2 or 6, doesn't have a buffer I can back up, unless I start recording it.
Granted with PiP and DLB, I don't have to wait for a well timed commercial break, but this isn't about having both, this is about DLB.


----------



## spartanstew

puffnstuff said:


> L stands for live .


touche, although some say it stands for line.


----------



## spartanstew

GrumpyBear said:


> Quicktune wouldn't do it though. I would have to setup recordings for the 1st 15min's of one show, and the last of another show. Quicktune just keeps me from having to hit 2 or 6, doesn't have a buffer I can back up, unless I start recording it.
> Granted with PiP and DLB, I don't have to wait for a well timed commercial break, but this isn't about having both, this is about DLB.


Exactly. If you're not pausing, then you don't need the buffer, therefore quicktune would work.

If you are pausing and need the buffer, quicktune won't work.

Unless, maybe I'm getting it now. You might not pause, but when you get back to that tuner, you rewind? Hmm, interesting. Yes, it wouldn't work if you want to rewind either.


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> Exactly. If you're not pausing, then you don't need the buffer, therefore quicktune would work.
> 
> If you are pausing and need the buffer, quicktune won't work.
> 
> Unless, maybe I'm getting it now. You might not pause, but when you get back to that tuner, you rewind? Hmm, interesting. Yes, it wouldn't work if you want to rewind either.


It could be as easy as a Potato vs Potatoe. Pause an fastward to the point you want to see vs rewinding to the point you want to see. For some its easier to Rewind as its quicker, it just happened in the last few minutes vs's I left that channel 45 min's ago, with Buffers, or it could be 2hrs ago, with the record everything mode, and now need to fastward to that last 5 min's or so. Both work, its just what works for you best.


----------



## spartanstew

I never even considered rewind, because usually when I'm watching 2 things, they're sporting events and 

1. I dont always swap at a commercial break. Sometimes I swap every 10 minutes regardless of what's going on so that I don't see a spoiler in the crawl.
2. If I don't have it paused, it could run through a score that I didn't see and I'd have to watch it backward.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> L stands for live .





spartanstew said:


> touche, although some say it stands for line.


"some" would be wrong, too


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> "some" would be wrong, too


I thought the 'L' word was something completely unrelated to DVRs


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> I thought the 'L' word was something completely unrelated to DVRs


Yup .. you've got it .. :grin:


----------



## DogLover

The workarounds when you want to channel surf are not as comprehensive, but aren't horrible. All of them assume an "anchor" program that you don't want to miss, and channel surfing on the other tuner.

If you don't want the "anchor" program to pause while you surf, you can just hit the record button and watch the program in the live buffer. It won't pause when you leave and then come back, but the buffer will be there because it is being recorded. However, you would not have a buffer on your surfing tuner, so this only works if you aren't concerned with backing up in the surfing channels.

Also, if you do want autopause and to surf on the other tuner, you simply add list/play to get back to your "anchor" recording. (It should always be first in the list, since you aren't recording anything else. This does preclude downloading a VOD while using this feature.)


----------



## RCY

DogLover said:


> The workarounds when you want to channel surf are not as comprehensive, but aren't horrible. All of them assume an "anchor" program that you don't want to miss, and channel surfing on the other tuner.
> 
> If you don't want the "anchor" program to pause while you surf, you can just hit the record button and watch the program in the live buffer. It won't pause when you leave and then come back, but the buffer will be there because it is being recorded. However, you would not have a buffer on your surfing tuner, so this only works if you aren't concerned with backing up in the surfing channels.
> 
> Also, if you do want autopause and to surf on the other tuner, you simply add list/play to get back to your "anchor" recording. (It should always be first in the list, since you aren't recording anything else. This does preclude downloading a VOD while using this feature.)


The workaround is only worthwhile if you have two programs you KNOW you will be watching. If you "surf", the capability to change EITHER tuner is important, IMO.

D* did toss a bone to the DLB crowd with the workaround, but it's not true DLB. It simulates DLB for two sporting events running at the same time, assuming you pad both events to avoid missing the end of the game because of overtime.


----------



## DogLover

RCY said:


> The workaround is only worthwhile if you have two programs you KNOW you will be watching. If you "surf", the capability to change EITHER tuner is important, IMO.
> 
> D* did toss a bone to the DLB crowd with the workaround, but it's not true DLB. It simulates DLB for two sporting events running at the same time, assuming you pad both events to avoid missing the end of the game because of overtime.


Actually, the workaround that I described works if you only have 1 program that you KNOW you will be watching. You can surf on the other tuner. It's not quite as convenient as when there are 2 programs that you want to watch.

However, if you want to surf on both tuners, there are no workarounds. Of course, even with DLB you never have much of a buffer if you are surfing on both tuners.


----------



## Que

ATARI said:


> I thought the 'L' word was something completely unrelated to DVRs


Only on D* plus line.  :lol:


----------



## guyravad

spartanstew said:


> It's only simpler to those that used DLB first.
> 
> IT'S NOT THAT DIFFICULT PEOPLE.


On the contrary. I had used the "work-around" first for years. My Time Warner box ran the Passport software and did not have DLBs. It also had the worlds worst remote so I would accidentally press keys by mistake and have to sit there helplessly knowing that in a few seconds the buffer would dump and I'd tune in some lame accidental channel. So I would record using one or both tuners when it really mattered.

Then they changed the software and added DLBs. And all my problems with losing program material were gone. Even with the same crappy remote. Too bad the rest of the box was garbage. Plus they had little HD programming compared to D*.

Now all this discussion is interesting and at the same time frustrating. Judging from most of the comments and the poll results, if and when D* loses their programming edge many people may switch to another service to get DLBs. I know I will. So I hope they implement it and save me the trouble since I generally like the service very much. But getting DLBs or at least a hard stop pop up warning notice before dumping my buffers is enough to make me switch.

The "pause or not to pause" issue isn't something I had ever considered since I never wanted to pause. When a commercial hits while watching live TV I would switch to the weather or the news for 2 minutes and then come back to the programming live. I just didn't want to watch commercials and wanted the option of going back if needed. If I had to hit rewind I did. It's really nice when a major news story is unfolding and you leave both Fox news and CNN in the buffers. Of if you like the weather reporter on the local news you leave that in buffer and then at the end of the hour just flip back, rewind and see the report. It is best to use a combination of the "work-around" and DLBs. And a combination is what it appears most people want. The argument that somehow the "work-around" alone is somehow better than having the functionality of both rings hollow.


----------



## RCY

DogLover said:


> Actually, the workaround that I described works if you only have 1 program that you KNOW you will be watching. You can surf on the other tuner. It's not quite as convenient as when there are 2 programs that you want to watch.
> 
> However, if you want to surf on both tuners, there are no workarounds. Of course, even with DLB you never have much of a buffer if you are surfing on both tuners.


Surfing on both tuners is doesn't mean that you constantly change channels on both tuners. But using your method, every time you change your "anchor" station, you have to set up a new recording that just needs deleting later.

I know lots of folks don't care about the difference. I (and my wife and kids) happen to. The point may end up being academic for us anyway. Once the DTV Pal (OTA HD Dvr with no monthly fee like TIVo) gets the kinks worked out, we may just drop D* altogether. I do know that if D* had put DLB in the HR2x from the get-go, I'd have 2 HR2xs already. FWIW.


----------



## DogLover

RCY said:


> Surfing on both tuners is doesn't mean that you constantly change channels on both tuners. But using your method, every time you change your "anchor" station, you have to set up a new recording that just needs deleting later.


I guess it was just a case of differing terms. I thought of surfing as anytime you are changing channels rather than watching a "show."

You are right in that the workaround would not work for you in that case. It may not be "constant" channel changes, but if you are watching partial shows, then you would have to be deleting recordings before you could change off of that chanel. That would be too cumbersome to do.


----------



## spartanstew

guyravad said:


> The "pause or not to pause" issue isn't something I had ever considered since I never wanted to pause. When a commercial hits while watching live TV I would switch to the weather or the news for 2 minutes and then come back to the programming live.


I guess that's where the difference is. I assumed most people with DVR's didn't watch much live TV. I use the DVR to record things so I can skip through the commercials. If I watched enough live TV to make DLB's a necessity for avoiding commercials, I'd probably dump the DVR and save myself the $5 per month.

I was changing the channel to the news for 2 minute stretches to avoid commercials 25 years ago. Thankfully, technology has eliminate the need (for me) to have to do that.


----------



## mccskey

my 2 cents and observations... 

1.over 2/3rd's of the vote want DLB's
2.why the resistance to add a feature that most people want (insert sarcasm... why satisfy your customer)
3.Adding DLB to DTV DVR's eliminate product differentiation versus Tivo
4. The cost of adding/developing this feature must exceed DTV's estimated ROI 


anyway I cant wait for DTV to match the user experience of DLB from tivo into the hr 20


----------



## guyravad

spartanstew said:


> I guess that's where the difference is. I assumed most people with DVR's didn't watch much live TV. I use the DVR to record things so I can skip through the commercials. If I watched enough live TV to make DLB's a necessity for avoiding commercials, I'd probably dump the DVR and save myself the $5 per month.
> 
> I was changing the channel to the news for 2 minute stretches to avoid commercials 25 years ago. Thankfully, technology has eliminate the need (for me) to have to do that.


Did I miss something here? Are they not called Dual *Live* buffers? If I pre-recorded entire episodes of every type of viewing material I wouldn't need DLBs or the work-around. I wouldn't be watching anything LIVE!
I think it's a little presumptuous to take my brief comments and characterize the entirety of my viewing habits as antiquated only to sustain a marginally viable viewpoint that DLBs are inferior to having both options.

I thought the goal here was to see what people wanted. The answer appears clear notwithstanding our lack of viewing sophistication.


----------



## Flyrx7

guyravad said:


> Did I miss something here? Are they not called Dual *Live* buffers? If I pre-recorded entire episodes of every type of viewing material I wouldn't need DLBs or the work-around. I wouldn't be watching anything LIVE!
> I think it's a little presumptuous to take my brief comments and characterize the entirety of my viewing habits as antiquated only to sustain a marginally viable viewpoint that DLBs are inferior to having both options.
> 
> I thought the goal here was to see what people wanted. The answer appears clear notwithstanding our lack of viewing sophistication.


Some people here choose to not understand certain facts, like what the majority of voters in this thread want, as well as how those people choose to use the feature the way they want too (if we actually had it).
It's usually their opinion or method is the only way a function should be used so they try to convince others that that is the only way, whether by arguing the point, belittling your opinions or dismissing your views as obsurd or antiquated.
You'll get used to it after awhile. Sorta'.

I just wish D* would just get it done and over with so we could get beyond all these silly arguments about why we do/don't need DLB or how to use a DVR correctly. I mean really, if you don't like it, don't use it. Why argue against it?

Frank


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> Some people here choose to not understand certain facts, like what the majority of voters in this thread want, as well as how those people choose to use the feature the way they want too (if we actually had it).
> It's usually their opinion or method is the only way a function should be used so they try to convince others that that is the only way, whether by arguing the point, belittling your opinions or dismissing your views as obsurd or antiquated.
> You'll get used to it after awhile. Sorta'.
> 
> I just wish D* would just get it done and over with so we could get beyond all these silly arguments about why we do/don't need DLB or how to use a DVR correctly. I mean really, if you don't like it, don't use it. Why argue against it?
> 
> Frank


I don't think anyone is expressing that their opinion is best and that you must agree (well...mostly on one any way). :grin:

Personally I don't like the workaround(s) for how I used to use DLB. Which is why I can't wait to see what "something better" is.

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

spartanstew said:


> I guess that's where the difference is. I assumed most people with DVR's didn't watch much live TV. I use the DVR to record things so I can skip through the commercials. If I watched enough live TV to make DLB's a necessity for avoiding commercials, I'd probably dump the DVR and save myself the $5 per month.
> 
> I was changing the channel to the news for 2 minute stretches to avoid commercials 25 years ago. Thankfully, technology has eliminate the need (for me) to have to do that.


Actually, for myself and for many friends the idea of a DVR had nothing to do with recording anything. All the Tivo commericals had as drooling over pausing and rewinding LIVE TV. Recording the shows while we were out was an addon. The Features were all about how we could manipulate LIVE tv to our likings. Every Tivo commerial was all about that. Rather you got a Tivo, or a Direct or a Dish DVR, what was in most of our minds was all the Tivo Commericals about manipulating LIVE TV.


----------



## dennisj00

Posted in wrong thread! Mods, please remove this post!


----------



## Flyrx7

MicroBeta said:


> I don't think anyone is expressing that their opinion is best and that you must agree (well...mostly on one any way). :grin:


Maybe not "must" agree, but we all know that there are at least a few posters here that try very hard to impose their will to the contrary. It's the same ones the perpetuate the debate so it's "all good", but some people haven't come to understand that yet. The key is to not get all worked up about it, one way or the other.



MicroBeta said:


> Personally I don't like the workaround(s) for how I used to use DLB. Which is why I can't wait to see what "something better" is.
> 
> Mike


Agreed. Most opponents don't understand the many ways one can use DLB. The workarounds address only a couple uses, but the way I prefer to use DLB is too cumbersome for the workaround to work, which is quite simply power surfing. Anchor a decent show on #1, surf on #2 until something looks better, anchor that one, surf on #1 until something looks even better, anchor that one, and keep leap frogging on alternate tuners until you find something worth watching. All the while you know that you can always revert to the previous buffer, rewind or record, and knowing that you won't miss a minute.

To constantly record (then delete) 5-10 minutes of speculative programming when hopping between tuners in this fashion is quite ridiculous. I suppose the workaround is adequate for some, but I for one am not happy with it.

You would think that that would be easy enough to understand, but to the uninitiated I guess we need diagrams. I honestly don't see why we need any more testimony stating the case for DLB, it's a pretty clear case. Just do it already D* so we can move on 

As far as the "something better" goes, I'd be happy with exactly how Tivo did it. It doesn't have to be better, just the same would be fine, except for maybe the buffer size. I'm sure with todays technology and harddrive sizes that the 30 minute buffer could easily be increased without any undue code, so I can't see that bigger buffers would be any more difficult or become deal breakers. So I guess the "something better" could be bigger buffers. I'd be fine with that.

Frank


----------



## puffnstuff

Something better is never coming, They just said it to keep us quiet for a little while .


----------



## James Long

Something better is always coming ...
For DISH customers it is Spring 2009 (Slingloaded DVR).
For DirecTV customers it is the new DirecTV TiVo.

Perhaps something else better will come before or between those products but there is alwasys something better down the road.


----------



## puffnstuff

James Long said:


> Something better is always coming ...
> For DISH customers it is Spring 2009 (Slingloaded DVR).
> For DirecTV customers it is the new DirecTV TiVo.
> 
> Perhaps something else better will come before or between those products but there is always something better down the road.


But by what was said I would have expected to hear something by now , it's been what , 9 months since the comment and absolutely no progress except a PIA workaround which really sucks since it does nothing to help me with the way I used DLB . So to me "something better" was a big line of BS so that they don't have to get off their butt's and do something about it . I mean come on if you can do it but won't , then you should have in the beginning said "no we can't do it" , instead of saying it's "we are looking at how to implement it" then saying we can but won't because something better is coming and to me TIVO is not something better it's just another reciever that I will have to pay top dollar for , only (most likely) for it to also be missing a feature since the last 2 recievers I have bought from them have .


----------



## Jhon69

James Long said:


> Something better is always coming ...
> For DISH customers it is Spring 2009 (Slingloaded DVR).
> For DirecTV customers it is the new DirecTV TiVo.
> 
> Perhaps something else better will come before or between those products but there is alwasys something better down the road.


There's also the continuing development of DirecTV's DVR+'s.


----------



## puffnstuff

Jhon69 said:


> There's also the continuing development of DirecTV's DVR+'s.


Which means we will get more meaningless bells and whistle's (is mediashare ever going to get out of beta ? Quictune - thanks now I have one less key press when changing channels .) while waiting for what really could be called a DVR+ .


----------



## tthunder38

puffnstuff said:


> Something better is never coming, They just said it to keep us quiet for a little while .


Well that didn't do a lot good


----------



## GrumpyBear

It did for about a month, almost 2 months.


----------



## Doug Brott

puffnstuff said:


> Something better is never coming, They just said it to keep us quiet for a little while .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> Something better is never coming, They just said it to keep us quiet for a little while .


Yeah but it gave us quite a bit to talk about for a while....wait.... :scratchin


----------



## DC_SnDvl

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah but it gave us quite a bit to talk about for a while....wait.... :scratchin


Something better is coming?

When will we find out what it is?​


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If you close your eyes, and wish reeeeeealll hard.....


----------



## James Long

Don't forget to click your heels and repeat ...

There is no feature like DLB.
There is no feature like DLB.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> If you close your eyes, and wish reeeeeealll hard.....





James Long said:


> Don't forget to click your heels and repeat ...
> 
> There is no feature like DLB.
> There is no feature like DLB.


Probably not a good idea to refer to the movie from where the phrase "smoke and mirrors" may have originated! :lol: /steve


----------



## Jhon69

James Long said:


> Don't forget to click your heels and repeat ...
> 
> There is no feature like DLB.
> There is no feature like DLB.


For me it's there's no feature like 2 two 90 minute live buffers.
there's no feature like 2 two 90 minute live buffers.

Think you got to click your heels 3 times or you won't go anywhere.


----------



## Jhon69

Steve said:


> Probably not a good idea to refer to the movie from where the phrase "smoke and mirrors" may have originated! :lol: /steve


Hmmm.....Charlie's favorite movie.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> For me it's there's no feature like 2 two 90 minute live buffers.
> there's no feature like 2 two 90 minute live buffers.
> 
> Think you got to click your heels 3 times or you won't go anywhere.


Who has 2 90min live buffers???
HR only has 1 90min live buffer, that can be lost in a second, as it will go live with no warning.
Keep clicking away.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> Who has 2 90min live buffers???
> HR only has 1 90min live buffer, that can be lost in a second, as it will go live with no warning.
> Keep clicking away.


We will either with the DirecTV HD DVR+ or the new HD DirecTivo or both and the plot thickens.


----------



## Lord Vader

There is no guarantee that the new DirecTV HD TIVO will have DLB. DirecTV may very well not have that feature active on those units.


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> There is no guarantee that the new DirecTV HD TIVO will have DLB. DirecTV may very well not have that feature active on those units.


That would be a first wouldn't it.


----------



## Lord Vader

Not really. The original DirecTV TIVOs did not have DLB at first. DirecTV implemented that later.


----------



## Richierich

Lord Vader said:


> There is no guarantee that the new DirecTV HD TIVO will have DLB. DirecTV may very well not have that feature active on those units.


I doubt that and because of all the HELL that has been raised about not having DLB this may be one of the reasons that they decided to get back in bed with TIVO!!!

That would be incredibly stupid unless they don't monitor this Forum at all which I find hard to believe.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

richierich said:


> I doubt that and because of all the HELL that has been raised about not having DLB this may be one of the reasons that they decided to get back in bed with TIVO!!!
> 
> That would be incredibly stupid unless they don't monitor this Forum at all which I find hard to believe.


What HELL raised?

It is just a few nuts in an internet chat site making fun of each other.


----------



## Lord Vader

Speak for yourself, you geeky dork!


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> Not really. The original DirecTV TIVOs did not have DLB at first. DirecTV implemented that later.


So your insinuating that DirecTV was in charge of the DirecTivo updates before?
I thought it was designed by Tivo for DirecTV and software updated by Tivo.


----------



## Lord Vader

Designed by TIVO but subject to the desires of DirecTV.


----------



## inkahauts

The original Directv Tivo didn't have DLB, and didn't even have both tuners active when it was launched. It was out for months before a software upgrade allowed the second tuner to work.. And I believe DLB came latter after that as well. That was the first unit to even have DLB (about the only thing Tivo has ever been first at in DVRs) Directv never allowed the machines to do anything that might compromise the programs that are recorded and let them be digitally copied onto a computer, or something of the nature. Directv never stopped them form doing other things.. They are still releaseing software updates to Directv Tivo units. And its also rumored that Tivo wanted more money for certain features, which Directv wasn't going to do, because they would have no way of recouping the costs...


----------



## puffnstuff

inkahauts said:


> The original Directv Tivo didn't have DLB, and didn't even have both tuners active when it was launched. It was out for months before a software upgrade allowed the second tuner to work.. And I believe DLB came latter after that as well. That was the first unit to even have DLB (about the only thing Tivo has ever been first at in DVRs) Directv never allowed the machines to do anything that might compromise the programs that are recorded and let them be digitally copied onto a computer, or something of the nature. Directv never stopped them form doing other things.. They are still releaseing software updates to Directv Tivo units. And its also rumored that Tivo wanted more money for certain features, which Directv wasn't going to do, because they would have no way of recouping the costs...


Didn't UTV have them first ? Even if you did have to use PIP to use them .


----------



## Doug Brott

inkahauts said:


> The original Directv Tivo didn't have DLB, and didn't even have both tuners active when it was launched. It was out for months before a software upgrade allowed the second tuner to work.. And I believe DLB came latter after that as well.


I believe the first beta came about 6 months after the DIRECTiVo was released .. an actual release was likely about 3-4 months after that. And yes, DLB came with dual tuners .. there wasn't a delay in that.


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> Designed by TIVO but subject to the desires of DirecTV.


You should consider double-checking your source on that one ..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> I believe the first beta came about 6 months after the DIRECTiVo was released .. an actual release was likely about 3-4 months after that. And yes, DLB came with dual tuners .. there wasn't a delay in that.


You are correct in that the first DirecTiVo came with DLB. At least mine did in 2003(don't remember the month).

IIRC there was a delay from the first dual tuner TiVo before there was DLB.

I seem to remember it being called dual tuner access at the time.

On the TiVo forum I was reading at the time, there was thread after thread in anticipation of the firmware push that would allow you to access both tuners.

Hmmmm....sounds kinda familiar. 

Mike


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> You should consider double-checking your source on that one ..


I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was DirecTV that didn't want media sharing or TiVo To Go on the DIrecTiVo platform. /steve


----------



## ATARI

Steve said:


> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was DirecTV that didn't want media sharing or TiVo To Go on the DIrecTiVo platform. /steve


They also didn't want any of the hacks available in the commercial series 2 to be available on the DirecTiVo.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Just make sure when you get DLB with the new DirectTVTivo, you get the view live button. That way you can jump to live and still keep your buffer.


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> They also didn't want any of the hacks available in the commercial series 2 to be available on the DirecTiVo.


Ya, but those hacks were still do-able in spite of that, weren't they? Or did they lock-down some backdoors that were still open in the series 2? /steve


----------



## ATARI

Steve said:


> Ya, but those hacks were still do-able in spite of that, weren't they? Or did they lock-down some backdoors that were still open in the series 2? /steve


They were locked down for me, that I can say for sure.


----------



## DogLover

MicroBeta said:


> You are correct in that the first DirecTiVo came with DLB. At least mine did in 2003(don't remember the month).
> 
> IIRC there was a delay from the first dual tuner TiVo before there was DLB.
> 
> I seem to remember it being called dual tuner access at the time.
> 
> On the TiVo forum I was reading at the time, there was thread after thread in anticipation of the firmware push that would allow you to access both tuners.
> 
> Hmmmm....sounds kinda familiar.
> 
> Mike


I don't know if it was the first, but I had the Sony DirecTivo (Sat-t60, I believe). It originally came with only 1 tuner active. 2nd tuner became active about 6 months later with a software download. DLB was available from the day the 2nd tuner was active.


----------



## Lord Vader

Steve said:


> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was DirecTV that didn't want media sharing or TiVo To Go on the DIrecTiVo platform. /steve


Indeed. It was TIVO software but tailored to the DirecTV TIVOs based on what would work for DirecTV and their preferences.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Careful with the thoughts on who wanted what on the DIRECTiVos... Unless you know the full negotiations therein, especially. (Like what it would cost DIRECTV for certain features, costs that would then be passed on to us.)

Or how it would look/feel.

Or...

Just sayin' there are at least two sides to the full story. (Maybe more, if you get down to the individual people as well as the corporate levels.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## GrumpyBear

Co-Branded equipment, is ALWAYS a pain. If both parties are going to sell the same equipment, one side or the other always pushs for away, to differentiate, themselves from the other company. Its always better to just OEM and Rebrand, a product instead. It will be interesting how the Co-Branding will go this time around.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

puffnstuff said:


> Didn't UTV have them first ? Even if you did have to use PIP to use them .


Yes but you had to have PIP on in order for the 2nd tuner to buffer, otherwise it didn't work.


----------



## General Custer

I cant believe this thread fell to page 4


----------



## Doug Brott

General Custer said:


> I cant believe this thread fell to page 4


It's back at the top now


----------



## prospero63

Tom Robertson said:


> Careful with the thoughts on who wanted what on the DIRECTiVos... Unless you know the full negotiations therein, especially. (Like what it would cost DIRECTV for certain features, costs that would then be passed on to us.)


I know. It would suck if DirecTV raised their rates every year and passed expenses on to their customers. Wait. :beatdeadhorse:


----------



## James Long

prospero63 said:


> I know. It would suck if DirecTV raised their rates every year and passed expenses on to their customers. Wait. :beatdeadhorse:


Speaking of that ... where the heck is the new rate increase announcement? DirecTV is leaving us hanging!


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> Who has 2 90min live buffers???
> HR only has 1 90min live buffer, that can be lost in a second, as it will go live with no warning.
> Keep clicking away.


 Those that have 2 HRxxs on 1 HDTV.:sure:

Having 2 HRxxs you can double your recordings,to do lists,live buffer,ect.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

General Custer said:


> I cant believe this thread fell to page 4





Doug Brott said:


> It's back at the top now


It always finds it way back and it always will. 

Mike

♪ de thread came back-thought she were a goner, 
but de thread came back for it wouldn't stay away ♪


----------



## Richierich

Jhon69 said:


> Those that have 2 HRxxs on 1 HDTV.:sure:
> 
> Having 2 HRxxs you can double your recordings,to do lists,live buffer,ect.


Yes, I just added an HR23-700 with a 1 TB Internal Drive to the HR21-700 with a 1 TB External Drive so I have 4 Tuners and 2 TB of space with 100 Series Links so I should be in business for a while.

Also, I have the Slingbox PRO HD so I should be pretty much Good To Go for awhile.


----------



## Albie

richierich said:


> Yes, I just added an HR23-700 with a 1 TB Internal Drive to the HR21-700 with a 1 TB External Drive so I have 4 Tuners and 2 TB of space with 100 Series Links so *I should be in business for a while*.


Yeah, at least a good six months don't you think?


----------



## Richierich

Albie said:


> Yeah, at least a good six months don't you think?


Well, with MRV coming in a couple of months I can record stuff on my other 2 HR21-700s each with a 1 TB drive and send them downstairs or vice versa so I won't have to have as much storage space on just 1 DVR with MRV. Also, have an HR10-250 with 1 TB of space so I can use that for backup stuff or stuff not as important.

Can't wait for MRV!!! So with 5 TBs of Space I should be okay until the 2 TB Drives come out in about 6 months.


----------



## GrumpyBear

richierich said:


> Well, with MRV coming in a couple of months I can record stuff on my other 2 HR21-700s each with a 1 TB drive and send them downstairs or vice versa so I won't have to have as much storage space on just 1 DVR with MRV. Also, have an HR10-250 with 1 TB of space so I can use that for backup stuff or stuff not as important.
> 
> Can't wait for MRV!!! So with 5 TBs of Space I should be okay until the 2 TB Drives come out in about 6 months.


MRV is cool, but still doesn't replace, LIVE buffers, just makes it easier to watch all your recorded shows. Doesn't help much for live stuff.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> MRV is cool, but still doesn't replace, LIVE buffers, just makes it easier to watch all your recorded shows. Doesn't help much for live stuff.


This is true .. However, for me watching a recording is exactly why I have a DVR. Live is reserved for sports and even then I often record and watch later in the day.


----------



## Richierich

I almost never watch Live Sports. I record it and then start watching the Recording at least after 30 minutes of the buffer has been filled so I can 30 second skip thru the commercials which I can't stand except maybe for the "Super Duper Bowl" Commercials.


----------



## sunking

GrumpyBear said:


> MRV is cool, but still doesn't replace, LIVE buffers, just makes it easier to watch all your recorded shows. Doesn't help much for live stuff.


I still maintain that DLB will come with MRV. If it doesn't then we will have a very lame implementation of MRV that does not allow you to pause/rewind a show on a remote receiver. Is not the idea of MRV that I can watch a show from my HR on the TV that has my H20? If that is the case and we go a step further and say that the H20 will be able to pause/rewind the buffer, and at the same time you can watch the other buffer on the HR20 then DLB will have to exist. If we can't do these things then we go to my second assertion, which is that they have given us a lame/crippled MRV. I don't think I've really seen a definition of what MRV will be. Worst case, all you can do is view an already recorded/recording show. Like direct2pc current does. Best case, and the one that makes sense is that either tuner, or already recorded show becomes available. Ideally what you want to do is start watching on the main tv, hit pause, move to the bedroom, and unpause.

All of this of course opens up a billion things to go wrong as far as clobbering buffers from every room in the house if you start playing with the live buffers. So maybe Directv will take the wuss way out and just do recorded shows. In which case, no DLB.


----------



## Albie

I don't believe you will be able to access the host box's buffer in MRV.


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> I still maintain that DLB will come with MRV.


Except DLB is Dual Live Buffers .. and MRV is Multi-Room Viewing .. I don't see any reason whatsoever for one to depend on the other


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> Except DLB is Dual Live Buffers .. and MRV is Multi-Room Viewing .. I don't see any reason whatsoever for one to depend on the other


Because you can't watch one buffer on your hr and another buffer in a remote room without it at least it functionally being there. So either you lock your remote receiver to what your HR is viewing, or you only do recordings remotely. Both options of which suck. This doesn't mean they'll tie it with with an 'up button' shortcut. But the HR has to have DLBs functioning internally. Or, as I say MRV will be a disapointment, sort of like DoD over DSL is.


----------



## Richierich

I thought that MRV was for Requesting Recorded Material from another DVR into your current DVR where you want to watch it. 

If I wanted to watch Live TV then I could do that easily without MRV so the only thing I want MRV to do for me is to ALLOW me to RECORD a Program in one place and then later determine where I will watch it by Requesting that Recorded Program be sent from that DVR that I have selected to the one I am Currently Using.

That will save me alot of recording space so I don't have to record the Golf Tournament in 3 different places or on 3 different DVRs because I don't know exactly which room I will be in when I want to watch that Golf Tournament.


----------



## sunking

Albie said:


> I don't believe you will be able to access the host box's buffer in MRV.


If that's the case then there are some serious development issues at directv. The hard work is already done, all you are doing is taking the stream from the network instead of the cable and the UI to control it all surely isn't that big a deal.


----------



## Doug Brott

sunking said:


> Because you can't watch one buffer on your hr and another buffer in a remote room without it at least it functionally being there. So either you lock your remote receiver to what your HR is viewing, or you only do recordings remotely. Both options of which suck. This doesn't mean they'll tie it with with an 'up button' shortcut. But the HR has to have DLBs functioning internally. Or, as I say MRV will be a disapointment, sort of like DoD over DSL is.


You're missing the whole point of MRV then. The point of multi-room viewing is to watch something that has been or is being recorded at a remote location. If you want to watch Live TV, then you would use the Live TV feed of the receiver where you are located. MRV will not be used to watch Live TV from a remote device.


----------



## dennisj00

sunking said:


> Because you can't watch one buffer on your hr and another buffer in a remote room without it at least it functionally being there. So either you lock your remote receiver to what your HR is viewing, or you only do recordings remotely. Both options of which suck. This doesn't mean they'll tie it with with an 'up button' shortcut. But the HR has to have DLBs functioning internally. Or, as I say MRV will be a disapointment, sort of like DoD over DSL is.


I wouldn't draw any conclusions about MRV until you see it. And I don't understand why you think DOD over DSL is a disappointment. Mine works very well!


----------



## sunking

richierich said:


> I thought that MRV was for Requesting Recorded Material from another DVR into your current DVR where you want to watch it.


This very well could be correct, however way way back when MRV was first kicked around and explained I thought it implied the ability to pause in one room and pick it up from there in the second. This was a long time ago and I could have misunderstood.

However, keeping in mind that the eventual goal for Directv is the whole house receiver then MRV working with streams is back on the table. So the question becomes how much of a test bed is the HR and MRV towards that solution. I'm hoping there is more to it than just recorded shows. Kind of boggling that a company was able to release a PC version of that same thing before Directv could for their own receivers.


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> If you want to watch Live TV, then you would use the Live TV feed of the receiver where you are located. MRV will not be used to watch Live TV from a remote device.


Why would I even remotely care about watching LIVE TV from another DVR via a netstream when I can WATCH it BETTER and in REAL TIME via the Live TV feed on that DVR.

MRV is simply Netstreaming Recorded Material from one DVR to another DVR where you want to watch it with maybe a few Bells and Whistles added.

And that if just FINE and DANDY for me! Come on MRV!!!


----------



## sunking

dennisj00 said:


> I wouldn't draw any conclusions about MRV until you see it. And I don't understand why you think DOD over DSL is a disappointment. Mine works very well!


Oh, not to get into this big debate, but with 1.5M down its pretty useless. Not saying its anyones fault but my own for a slow connection. Just saying its not even worth having for me and I haven't even looked at it in 6 months.


----------



## Richierich

I definitely think that you need to get some good bandwidth to enjoy MRV or any Netstreaming in HD for that matter but in the coming months ahead higher bandwidth will be increasing as it is becoming big business and it won't be long until everyone has 10 Mbps or better as this is the Future of Electronics especially PCs and Netstreaming Devices such as the Netflix/TiVo collaboration for downloading Movies, etc.


----------



## sunking

richierich said:


> I definitely think that you need to get some good bandwidth to enjoy MRV or any Netstreaming in HD for that matter but in the coming months ahead higher bandwidth will be increasing as it is becoming big business and it won't be long until everyone has 10 Mbps or better as this is the Future of Electronics especially PCs and Netstreaming Devices such as the Netflix/TiVo collaboration for downloading Movies, etc.


I don't really see much happening in the coming months to help things out on a national level. DSL is severly limited for most people due to line distance. No chance of significantly increasing that. Cable can increase, but only in short intervals. Their bane is that the faster they become, the more people want to download and clutter the lines. So they have to limit it to the first XXX of a download, then scale back. And in the end the users will want more than they can deliver. That leaves FIOS/UVerse, both of which will be years before they can claim a good availability to anyplace that isn't a lucractive city. It simply takes them a lot of years and money to do the installation on a town by town basis. And many places will simply never be economically worth it. The content is growing much much faster than the providers can upgrade. And they'll continue to upgrade the places that it makes sense for them monetarily, continueing to ignore/skip over the rest.


----------



## Richierich

I remember alot of arguments a few years ago before I was fortunate enough to be the First Person to Buy an HR10-250 and have it Activated via Directv and I was told that High Def would NEVER catch on with the General Public because it was too expensive, not enough HD programming, etc.

Well, I have enjoyed my HR10-150 since April 12, 2004 at 9:00 A.M. when I supposedly was the First Person to Buy and Activate my HR10-150 HD Directivo and everyone said HD wouldn't catch on so I look to the Future. I was King of Tivocommunity.com for about a week and it was great fun with everyone asking me about the DVR but Time & Technology moves on and so will Bandwidth and it won't be long until DVDs are a thing of the past because everything will be Downloaded Media Content onto a DVR type device that will monitor your whole house.

And now my beloved HR10-150 is becoming Obsolete just as Earl said it would a year ago even though I can still use it to Record HD OTA feeds from Atlanta which is alot of HD content so all is not lost but it is becoming PASSEE!!!


----------



## dreadlk

Is there really even any point to this thread??

People have been asking for DLB from the get go, and still nothing, DirecTV has added VOD, DOD, mobile recording support, PC support and a host of other things but still no DLB. I think we can conclude that it's just not possible, maybe the CPU is not fast enough or some other reason. Lets face it, by now if it could be done it would have been done!


----------



## Doug Brott

dreadlk said:


> Is there really even any point to this thread??


Yes, there is a point to this thread ..


----------



## Lord Vader

dreadlk said:


> I think we can conclude that it's just not possible,


Uh, no we cannot conclude that.



> ... maybe the CPU is not fast enough or some other reason. Lets face it, by now if it could be done it would have been done!


Obviously you haven't been reading about DLB here, have you? There is no technical limitation to implementing DLB. DirecTV simply *chooses *not to implement it. They could "switch it on" in a heartbeat if they wanted. They don't want to, so that's the end of it. It doesn't exist because DirecTV *chooses *that it not exist.


----------



## Que

richierich said:


> And now my beloved HR10-150 is becoming Obsolete just as Earl said it would a year ago even though I can still use it to Record HD OTA feeds from Atlanta which is alot of HD content so all is not lost but it is becoming PASSEE!!!


Our HR10-250 is still in the living room. We use it everyday. Mostly only watch OTA HD anyways. Would I like more HD channels? Sure I love at bigger TV too. I have a 52 now. Right now I'm happy with HR10-250. In time with D* I'm sure "something better" will come and DLB. I'm also waiting for D* new TiVo.


----------



## Garyunc

PIP!!! Forget dual live buffers. PIP is the feature that I want most. I miss it from my cable dvr days (still not going back to cable though


----------



## GrumpyBear

Garyunc said:


> PIP!!! Forget dual live buffers. PIP is the feature that I want most. I miss it from my cable dvr days (still not going back to cable though


I understand,PiP is really cool, but where you can have DLB withouth PiP, how do you get PiP without DLB?


----------



## Richierich

Garyunc said:


> PIP!!! Forget dual live buffers. PIP is the feature that I want most. I miss it from my cable dvr days (still not going back to cable though


When you have PIP do you still have High Def PQ???

I bought a widescreen HD LCD so I could enjoy a nice beautiful high definition display. Why not just buy two display devices and have them side by side?


----------



## GrumpyBear

richierich said:


> When you have PIP do you still have High Def PQ???


Yes with PiP, both are in HD PQ, some of us don't have room to have 2 46" TV's sitting side by side. Or at my Parents house, having 2 65" TV's side by side, would just be WAY TO MUCH.


----------



## puffnstuff

GrumpyBear said:


> Yes with PiP, both are in HD PQ, some of us don't have room to have 2 46" TV's sitting side by side. Or at my Parents house, having 2 65" TV's side by side, would just be WAY TO MUCH.


What kind of TV is it ? I've been researching for this feature and have not been able to find a TV with the ability to do 2 HD displays just 1 HD 1 SD .


----------



## GrumpyBear

puffnstuff said:


> What kind of TV is it ? I've been researching for this feature and have not been able to find a TV with the ability to do 2 HD displays just 1 HD 1 SD .


Sorry it isn't the TV that gives me HD PiP.
"Garyunc" was talking about the cable box, and I was just pointing out that PiP does require DLB. I get the PiP with dual HD via the Vip622/722, sorry for any confusion.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I don't think the HR's can decode two video streams at the same time. That would be required for PIP.



Garyunc said:


> PIP!!! Forget dual live buffers. PIP is the feature that I want most. I miss it from my cable dvr days (still not going back to cable though


----------



## TheRatPatrol

puffnstuff said:


> What kind of TV is it ? I've been researching for this feature and have not been able to find a TV with the ability to do 2 HD displays just 1 HD 1 SD .


Its been reported that the 50 inch Vizio TV can do 2 HD pictures at the same time via HDMI.



> The Vizio is one of the few models these days to feature full picture-in-picture functionality--although, annoyingly, it's disabled by default. You'll have to enable it in the parental controls menu which, annoyingly, you can only access by choosing an analog or TV tuner input. We did appreciate that * the PIP worked to display two HDMI sources simultaneously, although one must originate from the side panel*.


----------



## Garyunc

GrumpyBear said:


> I understand,PiP is really cool, but where you can have DLB withouth PiP, how do you get PiP without DLB?


Well I guess you are correct about this so will clarify that I really want Dual Live Buffers with a PIP enhancement. C'mon Direct TV give it to us.


----------



## Doug Brott

At a minimum, PIP w/ DLB would require the HR2x to output two different programs from the outputs on the back of the receiver .. Folks, this ain't happening with the HR2x .. This requires hardware that's just not present on the existing platform.


----------



## dennisj00

Actually PIP could just be the internal overlay (like PIG) of the two buffers (or a live / recording, or recording / recording) rather than output two streams in hardware that would require the TV to then do PIP or P&P that my Sonys do. I have P&P on both with 2 HR or HR/H on both.

No hardware changes but not sure if that can be done in software.

I'll settle for DLB!! (You knew I would!)


----------



## GrumpyBear

dennisj00 said:


> Actually PIP could just be the internal overlay (like PIG) of the two buffers (or a live / recording, or recording / recording) rather than output two streams in hardware that would require the TV to then do PIP or P&P that my Sonys do. I have P&P on both with 2 HR or HR/H on both.
> 
> No hardware changes but not sure if that can be done in software.
> 
> I'll settle for DLB!! (You knew I would!)


I think Doug is right about this. ViP 622/722 can do DLB and PiP, the Vip612 can only do DLB. Main difference between the 2 systems is being able to drive 2 outputs. Granted you only USE 1 output, in single mode.


----------



## Doug Brott

GrumpyBear said:


> I think Doug is right about this. ViP 622/722 can do DLB and PiP, the Vip612 can only do DLB. Main difference between the 2 systems is being able to drive 2 outputs. Granted you only USE 1 output, in single mode.


Exactly ..


----------



## Stuart Sweet

dennisj00 said:


> Actually PIP could just be the internal overlay (like PIG) of the two buffers (or a live / recording, or recording / recording) rather than output two streams in hardware that would require the TV to then do PIP or P&P that my Sonys do. I have P&P on both with 2 HR or HR/H on both.
> 
> No hardware changes but not sure if that can be done in software.
> 
> I'll settle for DLB!! (You knew I would!)


As far as I know it can't be done in software. The hardware is the holdup here; the ability to pull and decode two streams simultaneously would come from hardware, and as Mr. Brott said, folks it just isn't there.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> Sorry it isn't the TV that gives me HD PiP.
> "Garyunc" was talking about the cable box, and I was just pointing out that PiP does require DLB. I get the PiP with dual HD via the Vip622/722, sorry for any confusion.


Which is interesting because Dish's DVR's can't output to 2 HDTVs,just one HD the other SD.


----------



## Jhon69

Stuart Sweet said:


> As far as I know it can't be done in software. The hardware is the holdup here; the ability to pull and decode two streams simultaneously would come from hardware, and as Mr. Brott said, folks it just isn't there.


Which is good news now this thread can concentrate on DLB in the HRxxs and R22s.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> Which is interesting because Dish's DVR's can't output to 2 HDTVs,just one HD the other SD.


The output over Coax connector was restricted to SD only. Broadcom just released a chip and MoCA has updated the spec to finally allow for HD over Coax. Now lets see if anybody picks up the ball.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> Which is good news now this thread can concentrate on DLB in the HRxxs and R22s.


What would the odds be of actually getting DLB on a HR24 or HR25, knowing that the feature wouldn't be available on the HR20-23?


----------



## Steve

GrumpyBear said:


> [...]MoCA has updated the spec to finally allow for HD over Coax. [...]


Wrong thread for this, but can you elaborate? I thought MoCA was only concerned with networking over coax? /steve


----------



## GrumpyBear

Steve said:


> Wrong thread for this, but can you elaborate? I thought MoCA was only concerned with networking over coax? /steve


I will send you stuff in private message.


----------



## Lord Vader

GrumpyBear said:


> What would the odds be of actually getting DLB on a HR24 or HR25, knowing that the feature wouldn't be available on the HR20-23?


What's an HR20-23?


----------



## GrumpyBear

Lord Vader said:


> What's an HR20-23?


Ok, how about this,
HR20
HR21
HR22
HR23

Instead of HR20-23. I keep forgetting that you have HR20-100 and other such stuff, sorry


----------



## Doug Brott

Lord Vader said:


> What's an HR20-23?


Short for ..

HR20-100, HR20-700, HR21-100, HR21-200, HR21-700, HR22-100, HR22-200, HR23-700


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> What would the odds be of actually getting DLB on a HR24 or HR25, knowing that the feature wouldn't be available on the HR20-23?


What makes you think it won't be available on the HR20-23s?.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> The output over Coax connector was restricted to SD only. Broadcom just released a chip and MoCA has updated the spec to finally allow for HD over Coax. Now lets see if anybody picks up the ball.





GrumpyBear said:


> Sorry it isn't the TV that gives me HD PiP.
> "Garyunc" was talking about the cable box, and I was just pointing out that PiP does require DLB. I get the PiP with dual HD via the Vip622/722, sorry for any confusion.


So if I understand this right you are getting PIP with dual HD via the Vip622/722
but the second coax output is SD? well I'm confused.


----------



## James Long

Jhon69 said:


> So if I understand this right you are getting PIP with dual HD via the Vip622/722
> but the second coax output is SD? well I'm confused.


In "single mode" the ViP-622 and 722 DVRs have an internal PIP where one picture is superimposed over the other in a small or large window in one of nine positions or the two images are presented side by side. Either or both images can be high definition from either satellite, OTA or DVR sources. SD sources can also be used.

In PIP mode the output of the receiver remains HD. Obviously the superimposed picture must be "shrunk" to fit the window (you can't put 1080i in a ~300 line box and stay 1080i) and "side by side" uses half the screen for each image so at best you're seeing 1080i on 540 lines of screen with top and bottom bars (SD images in half screen actually get more lines in height as they are kept in a 4:3 aspect ratio).

PIP with a superimposed window is the closest to HD PIP since the base image remains 1080i/720p. Swap can put either HD image as the base image.

(A HD TV set with it's own PIP would be at best the same even if the second input was only SD since the PIP window doesn't have enough lines to display a HD image within the HD image. Although it would need two HD inputs to do the swap function that the ViP 622/722 have built in.)

"The second coax output in SD" on the ViP 622/722 ... the only HD outputs on the ViPs are HDMI or component. The _only_ coax output on the ViP 622/722 is NTSC UHF. The modulator that creates this SD feed (which on a ViP in "single mode" would be a down-converted version of the TV1 output or disabled in the menus) creates an NTSC UHF feed, much like a local OTA analog TV station. No ATSC or digital output via coax is available.

In "dual mode" the ViPs behave differently. There is no PIP. TV1 is HD output via HDMA/component and down-converted to SD output via composite/RF. TV2 is SD output via composite/RF only. TV1's RF output is by default disabled but can easily be enabled in menus. The RF output remains NTSC UHF.


----------



## Jhon69

Thanks James.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I just want "something" that allows me to access the intact buffer in both tuners.

What ever the form of access is...don't really care as long as it works. :grin:

Mike


----------



## GrumpyBear

James Long said:


> In "dual mode" the ViPs behave differently. There is no PIP. TV1 is HD output via HDMA/component and down-converted to SD output via composite/RF. TV2 is SD output via composite/RF only. TV1's RF output is by default disabled but can easily be enabled in menus. The RF output remains NTSC UHF.


I hate the down-conveted term, for the coax output. 
The output over Coax is controlled, by a specification, SD.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> What makes you think it won't be available on the HR20-23s?.


Just to many posts, about even DLB, wont work with the way, Direct has worked the hardware, and you can't do it in the software. So for the HR20 THRU 23, it just wont happen.h


----------



## James Long

GrumpyBear said:


> I hate the down-conveted term, for the coax output.
> The output over Coax is controlled, by a specification, SD.


I wanted to make it abundantly clear, especially when someone keeps throwing around comments about MoCA and HD over coax. There should be no doubt that the "coax" output is not ATSC HD or anything other than a good old fashioned SD NTSC UHF signal.


----------



## dreadlk

And why on earth would they not want to implement it??
I cannot see any downside to them, by letting us have this feature. The technical limitation that I see is that if a person had a scheduled recording going it would eliminate the DLB 2nd buffer and that might anoy many people when they switch back to a previous channel and find nothing. I suspect that is why they can't do it because they have hit a wall in trying to get 3 sat inputs being recorded at the same time and that is what would be needed to do DLB properly (and yes I know the receiver only has 2 tuners but they can still access multiple channels with each tuner)

In any case my main question is please tell me why Directv would not want to put in DLB if they really can.



Lord Vader said:


> Uh, no we cannot conclude that.
> 
> Obviously you haven't been reading about DLB here, have you? There is no technical limitation to implementing DLB. DirecTV simply *chooses *not to implement it. They could "switch it on" in a heartbeat if they wanted. They don't want to, so that's the end of it. It doesn't exist because DirecTV *chooses *that it not exist.


----------



## Flyrx7

dreadlk said:


> And why on earth would they not want to implement it??
> I cannot see any downside to them, by letting us have this feature. ...........................
> In any case my main question is please tell me why Directv would not want to put in DLB if they really can.


Ah, now we're to the crux of the whole question, right there. Why don't they, Directv, do it? Simply becauese they don't want too isn't a good enough reason for anyone. 
That right there is the part that makes this whole situation so unbelievable. If they can, then do it. If not, then say so!


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> Just to many posts, about even DLB, wont work with the way, Direct has worked the hardware, and you can't do it in the software. So for the HR20 THRU 23, it just wont happen.h


When you read Doug's post it said you won't see PIP/w DLB because of the hardware in the HRs.

Did not say you will not see DLB.


----------



## Jhon69

Doug Brott said:


> At a minimum, PIP w/ DLB would require the HR2x to output two different programs from the outputs on the back of the receiver .. Folks, this ain't happening with the HR2x .. This requires hardware that's just not present on the existing platform.


Here I brought this forward.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Jhon69 said:


> Here I brought this forward.


I wasn't talking about Just Doug's post.


----------



## Richierich

Why don't they have The Travel Channel In HD???

There are corporate decisions and technical decisions and political problems that arise in Corporate Affairs that we are not privy to but I think that there are valid reasons why they haven't done these things as they surely want to be Competitive and they aren't stupid as they have delivered a pretty good product so far.

I just wish the Corporate Senior Vice President in charge of Marketing would call me but he probably will not so I will just have to live with it until I get The Travel Channel in HD and mayge DLB with the new MPEG-4 Directivo DVR.

Obsiously they could have done it so there must be reasons why it hasn't happen but may in the near future such as MRV!!!


----------



## James Long

richierich said:


> Why don't they have The Travel Channel In HD???


DirecTV receivers are not capable of displaying The Travel Channel in HD. There can't be any other reason.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> DirecTV receivers are not capable of displaying The Travel Channel in HD. There can't be any other reason.


OOOOOOOOK. 

I would venture to say we'll have the Travel Channel in HD before we get "something better" 

Mike


----------



## prospero63

Lord Vader said:


> Uh, no we cannot conclude that.
> 
> Obviously you haven't been reading about DLB here, have you? There is no technical limitation to implementing DLB. DirecTV simply *chooses *not to implement it. They could "switch it on" in a heartbeat if they wanted. They don't want to, so that's the end of it. It doesn't exist because DirecTV *chooses *that it not exist.


Which makes the hubris with which they raise rates, etc. all the more unpalatable...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

prospero63 said:


> Which makes the hubris with which they raise rates, etc. all the more unpalatable...


Why?

While some believe it is a must have, it's still just one feature.

Do I want it back? Yes.

Is it the defining factor by which DirecTV will be judged? Not in my opinion. :grin:

I pay less for my service and get more HD channels then I would from my cable company so I'm not sure they're actions qualify as hubris. 

Mike


----------



## prospero63

MicroBeta said:


> Why?
> 
> While some believe it is a must have, it's still just one feature.
> 
> Do I want it back? Yes.
> 
> Is it the defining factor by which DirecTV will be judged? Not in my opinion. :grin:
> 
> I pay less for my service and get more HD channels then I would from my cable company so I'm not sure they're actions qualify as hubris.
> 
> Mike


Having the ability to implement functionality that a sizable majority of their customer base has asked for, and has asked for for years, and not doing it simply because they choose not to absolutely qualifies as hubris. It actually qualifies for a number of other definitions, but I'm not sure they are forum safe phrases...

Again with the DirecTV defensive mechanism of "hey, if you really want to see suck, check out cable". Sooner or later I hope DirecTV gets management and leadership in place that realizes the goal of "we are the least sucky" isn't the same as "we are the best".


----------



## Albie

prospero63 said:


> Having the ability to implement functionality that *a sizable majority of their customer base has asked for*, and has asked for for years, and not doing it simply because they choose not to absolutely qualifies as hubris. It actually qualifies for a number of other definitions, but I'm not sure they are forum safe phrases...
> 
> Again with the DirecTV defensive mechanism of "hey, if you really want to see suck, check out cable". Sooner or later I hope DirecTV gets management and leadership in place that realizes the goal of "we are the least sucky" isn't the same as "we are the best".


A sizable majority of their customers, or a sizable majority of their customers that participate on internet talk forums?


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> A sizable majority of their customers, or a sizable majority of their customers that participate on internet talk forums?


That's the best defense of DirecTV's actions now? The same group that has the wishlist and talks about all the features they have managed to get DirecTV to include, but now that it's not convenient to reference them anymore we dismiss them?

I'm willing to bet that the response of the online folks is indicative of their entire customer base. However, since DirecTV doesn't share any of their customer marketing data, roadmap information or anything of that nature, the best any of us can do is wait for someone to chime in with a "wink, wink".


----------



## dennisj00

Even if you take 50% of the numbers to eliminate the nerd factor here - yes, I'm including everyone here! - that's still >35% from the numbers above.

That's a pretty sizable segment of customers to please instead of p. o.


----------



## prospero63

dennisj00 said:


> Even if you take 50% of the numbers to eliminate the nerd factor here - yes, I'm including everyone here! - that's still >35% from the numbers above.


Yes, but what about DirecTV stating that they have a "higher end" customer anyway? Can't have it both ways... this poll is certainly comprised of higher end customers I'd bet... the same customers that DirecTV claims to covet...


----------



## bonscott87

Honestly the only number that matters is their subscriber number. As long as it keeps going up, outpacing nearly everyone out there and as long as people don't leave because there is no DLB then frankly they have no incentive to put it at the top of the list. If they had a significant number of people leaving (say hundreds of thousands) and the reason was no DLB then you can bet they would put that as a high priority. But that's obviously not the case. Look at all the people in this thread. Have they all left? Nope. Most are still paying their monthly bill.

Don't get me wrong, hopefully some day we'll see DLB. But until there is a mass exodus of people that leave because of it, it's not going to be near the top of the list of things they want to accomplish.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> Honestly the only number that matters is their subscriber number. As long as it keeps going up, outpacing nearly everyone out there and as long as people don't leave because there is no DLB then frankly they have no incentive to put it at the top of the list. If they had a significant number of people leaving (say hundreds of thousands) and the reason was no DLB then you can bet they would put that as a high priority. But that's obviously not the case. Look at all the people in this thread. Have they all left? Nope. Most are still paying their monthly bill.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, hopefully some day we'll see DLB. But until there is a mass exodus of people that leave because of it, it's not going to be near the top of the list of things they want to accomplish.


I get your point, but that's the pinnacle of arrogance if DirecTV actually has that philosophy. If the only incentive for improvement is loss of subscribers... well, sooner or later it will wind up being self-fulfilling. Innovation should be done to increase their customer base even more, not to keep from losing customers.


----------



## Sandy

bonscott87 said:


> Honestly the only number that matters is their subscriber number. As long as it keeps going up, outpacing nearly everyone out there and as long as people don't leave because there is no DLB then frankly they have no incentive to put it at the top of the list. If they had a significant number of people leaving (say hundreds of thousands) and the reason was no DLB then you can bet they would put that as a high priority. But that's obviously not the case. Look at all the people in this thread. Have they all left? Nope. Most are still paying their monthly bill.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, hopefully some day we'll see DLB. But until there is a mass exodus of people that leave because of it, it's not going to be near the top of the list of things they want to accomplish.


I haven't left (because of the lack of DLB) because I am under contract. I switched to HD in August (gave up 2 Directv Tivos). I incurred a 24 month contract at that time. If Directv doesn't have DLB when my contract expires, I will go somewhere that does. I am not a happy customer like I was before the switch to HD.

I know about the work arounds. They don't let me do what I want to do. I am one who likes to watch one program on one tuner and channel surf on the other tuner, flip back and forth between tuners. I watch mostly live TV. This is the way I enjoy watching TV.


----------



## Albie

prospero63 said:


> *That's the best defense of DirecTV's actions now?* The same group that has the wishlist and talks about all the features they have managed to get DirecTV to include, but now that it's not convenient to reference them anymore we dismiss them?
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the response of the online folks is indicative of their entire customer base. However, since DirecTV doesn't share any of their customer marketing data, roadmap information or anything of that nature, the best any of us can do is wait for someone to chime in with a "wink, wink".


I'm not defending Directv's actions. Just questioning a very large leap of logic.

As for the online folks being indicative of their customer base, I would seriously doubt that, we tend to be early adopters, tech enthusiasts, etc, while the vast bulk of their dvr customers are probably people that just want to watch tv and are only concerned about very basics of a DVR (record shows, watch recorded shows and pause live tv on the channel they are watching). In any sense their growth in overall subscribers and dvr subscribers in the last 2 years certainly leads me to believe that not having DLB is a not a concern to the majority of Directv's dvr customers.


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> I'm not defending Directv's actions. Just questioning a very large leap of logic.
> 
> As for the online folks being indicative of their customer base, I would seriously doubt that, we tend to be early adopters, tech enthusiasts, etc, while the vast bulk of their dvr customers are probably people that just want to watch tv and are only concerned about very basics of a DVR (record shows, watch recorded shows and pause live tv on the channel they are watching). In any sense their growth in overall subscribers and dvr subscribers in the last 2 years certainly leads me to believe that not having DLB is a not a concern to the majority of Directv's dvr customers.


This is kind of funny. I've cited this three times now, but DirecTV isn't king of the mountain in customer satisfaction anymore. AT&T and Verizon are. uVerse uses it's MRV functionality (another thing DirecTV doesn't have) as a HUGE marketing chip. A simple google search of Dual Live Buffers will turn up all kinds of pages, reviews and commentary on the lack of that functionality in the DirecTV product line.

As for subscriber growth, here's an article from Nov 2008. That's a *35% Drop in Subscriber Growth*. Let me let that sink in for a moment.

So honestly, I have to say that if there is a leap in logic, it seems to be more in the "be damned all the information out there" and "polling of people isn't representative of what people want" position. Indeed, dare I say, there's a lot of folks (maybe even executives and management at DirecTV) who seem to outright have their heads in the sand.


----------



## Flyrx7

Albie said:


> I'm not defending Directv's actions. Just questioning a very large leap of logic.
> 
> As for the online folks being indicative of their customer base, I would seriously doubt that, we tend to be early adopters, tech enthusiasts, etc, while the vast bulk of their dvr customers are probably people that just want to watch tv and are only concerned about very basics of a DVR


While that may be true, I bet we, online folks, spend quite a bit more on our D* services and equipment than the average "Joe" does too. How many here have several receivers, get all (or many) sport packages, and spend $700-$1000 on a brand new receiver? (or even $300-$400 for that matter)

While the $ is not an apples to apples comparison, I'm sure anyone that is responsible to the share holders should be concerned with the numbers of "online folks", nonetheless.

I'm pretty sure it's not the people that have the minimum programming package that care about DLB as much as those of us with several receivers and higher tier programming packages, especially the sports packages.
If D* really means that it values the "higher end" user as they say, then I think that they'd be throwing us a bone on this whole DLB thing.


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> I get your point, but that's the pinnacle of arrogance if DirecTV actually has that philosophy. If the only incentive for improvement is loss of subscribers... well, sooner or later it will wind up being self-fulfilling. Innovation should be done to increase their customer base even more, not to keep from losing customers.


Totally agree. But you have limited funds to do that innovation. So perhaps they feel that media share and MRV are more important to keeping customers and gaining new ones then DLB. They might be wrong. Heck, there could still be a technical reason why there is no DLB just like the 50 series link limit. We just don't know.


----------



## jahgreen

prospero63 said:


> As for subscriber growth, here's an article from Nov 2008. That's a *35% subscriber drop*. Let me let that sink in for a moment.


Ummmm, that's not what I read in the cited article. I read a 35% decline in the rate of growth of subscribers. Big difference.

The linked DirecTV report also states continued subscriber growth for the three months ending in September 2008, but the growth was 35% less than for the three months ending September 2007.

So the DirecTV subscriber base continued to grow, but at a slower rate. Hardly surprising given the economy.


----------



## bonscott87

jahgreen said:


> Ummmm, that's not what I read in the cited article. I read a 35% decline in the rate of growth of subscribers. Big difference.


All I know is that they still added 156K subs while Dish and most cable companies *lost* subs. I think DirecTV did just fine. 

Plus the fact most of that decline was due to loss of AT&T customers to Dish do their dropping DirecTV. Not much they can do about that loss.

Anyway...


----------



## prospero63

jahgreen said:


> Ummmm, that's not what I read in the cited article. I read a 35% decline in the rate of growth of subscribers. Big difference.


Mistake on my part. I'll go ahead and adjust my original post to exactly state the same words as the original article. That out of the way, let's dismiss it as a mere blip. Nothing wrong here, move along, nothing to see...



> The linked DirecTV report also states continued subscriber growth for the three months ending in September 2008, but the growth was 35% less than for the three months ending September 2007.
> 
> So the DirecTV subscriber base continued to grow, but at a slower rate. Hardly surprising given the economy.


Indeed. Can't possibly be due to decisions DirecTV makes. No, it must be something, anything other than DirecTV...


----------



## Albie

prospero63 said:


> This is kind of funny. I've cited this three times now, but DirecTV isn't king of the mountain in customer satisfaction anymore. AT&T and Verizon are. uVerse uses it's MRV functionality (another thing DirecTV doesn't have) as a HUGE marketing chip. A simple google search of Dual Live Buffers will turn up all kinds of pages, reviews and commentary on the lack of that functionality in the DirecTV product line.


Never claimed anything about customer satisfaction. I will say that considering where FIOS and U-Verse are in the product lifecycle (Yes I realize they are services) that if they weren't leading the pack they should be very worried about what they are doing. Could Directv improve? Absolutely, they even admit it



> As for subscriber growth, here's an article from Nov 2008. That's a *35% subscriber drop*. Let me let that sink in for a moment.


That is a 35% drop in growth *rate*. Big difference. They aren't losing more customers than they bring in, just not bringing them in as fast.



> So honestly, I have to say that if there is a leap in logic, it seems to be more in the "be damned all the information out there" and "polling of people isn't representative of what people want" position. Indeed, dare I say, there's a lot of folks (maybe even executives and management at DirecTV) who seem to outright have their heads in the sand.


As far as "polling of people" are you seriously trying to say that a self selecting poll on an enthusiast web site is in any way representative of the whole population of D* customers or even D*'s dvr customers?

As to your question of head in the sand, what other metric except numbers of subscribers (either whole company or dvr only) gives a truly objetive view of what customers want.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> Totally agree. But you have limited funds to do that innovation. So perhaps they feel that media share and MRV are more important to keeping customers and gaining new ones then DLB. They might be wrong. Heck, there could still be a technical reason why there is no DLB just like the 50 series link limit. We just don't know.


Well, someone who seems to be in the "wink, wink" know claims that the only reason they haven't done it is because they don't want to.

I agree on funds and innovation - but that's not unique to DirecTV. Every company has to contend with those challenges. The most successful are the ones who figure out how to navigate those waters the most effectively. My perception is that DirecTV is still trying to get out of the harbor (staying with my water metaphor).

Also, given that MRV seems to have been simmering for as long as DLB, it's not a very good measuring stick IMO. Both are woefully overdue...


----------



## Albie

Flyrx7 said:


> *While that may be true, I bet we, online folks, spend quite a bit more on our D* services and equipment than the average "Joe" does too.* How many here have several receivers, get all (or many) sport packages, and spend $700-$1000 on a brand new receiver? (or even $300-$400 for that matter)
> 
> While the $ is not an apples to apples comparison, I'm sure anyone that is responsible to the share holders should be concerned with the numbers of "online folks", nonetheless.
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's not the people that have the minimum programming package that care about DLB as much as those of us with several receivers and higher tier programming packages, especially the sports packages.
> If D* really means that it values the "higher end" user as they say, then I think that they'd be throwing us a bone on this whole DLB thing.


I assume that is a given. I just believe that until they see subscriber numbers actually decline they won't throw us, or any other customer segment a bone.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> All I know is that they still added 156K subs while Dish and most cable companies *lost* subs. I think DirecTV did just fine.


Way to spin it.

1) Man, you think we did bad, look at those guys!!!
2) The added 156K. They were forecast to add 181K. Last year/qtr they added 241K. Yep, that sounds just fine to me too. :nono2:



> Plus the fact most of that decline was due to loss of AT&T customers to Dish do their dropping DirecTV. Not much they can do about that loss.
> 
> Anyway...


After the fact, no. But before the fact, things can always potentially be done.


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> Never claimed anything about customer satisfaction. I will say that considering where FIOS and U-Verse are in the product lifecycle (Yes I realize they are services) that if they weren't leading the pack they should be very worried about what they are doing.


I'm curious. Why should AT&T and Verizon be worried if they aren't leading the pack, but DirecTV shouldn't?



> Could Directv improve? Absolutely, they even admit it


Admitting they can improve and actually improving aren't the same thing though.



> That is a 35% drop in growth *rate*. Big difference. They aren't losing more customers than they bring in, just not bringing them in as fast.


Already addressed my error.



> As far as "polling of people" are you seriously trying to say that a self selecting poll on an enthusiast web site is in any way representative of the whole population of D* customers or even D*'s dvr customers?


Nope. I'm saying that when you really look at all the evidence that is out there, it's clear that DirecTV has customers who really want this functionality and if you believe the poster who said that DirecTV could implement DLB whenever they wanted but that they choose not to, as a customer I have to give it a big WTF is going on.

It's other folks who have latched onto the poll in this thread. I merely pointed it out as yet another reference point.

Are you honestly trying to say that so few people want DLB that it completely warrants not doing solely as a matter of choice, not technical limitation? (I can do begging the question too )



> As to your question of head in the sand, what other metric except numbers of subscribers (either whole company or dvr only) gives a truly objetive view of what customers want.


Wow. Did you really just ask that? Number of subscribers has nothing to do (at least not directly) with what people want. A novel idea of gaining an objective view of what customers want is to TALK TO THEM. Not merely take their money and move on. You ask them what they want. You gather the data. You prioritize it and you rank it, then you go off and start building it. I mean under the logic you present, as long as they have new subscribers or grow at all, there's no reason for them to improve anything or do anything new.


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> I assume that is a given. I just believe that until they see subscriber numbers actually decline they won't throw us, or any other customer segment a bone.


By the time that happens, it may well be too late. Again, that's why the good companies stay in front of these things and predict, as opposed to getting behind them and reacting. To paraphrase, slow, reactionary and behind the curve is no way to do business...


----------



## Albie

prospero63 said:


> I'm curious. Why should AT&T and Verizon be worried if they aren't leading the pack, but DirecTV shouldn't?


If you're in a service industry and you're the new guy on the block and you're not doing it cheaper and providing better service than the entrenched incumbents then it is likely you won't last too long.



> Are you honestly trying to say that so few people want DLB that it completely warrants not doing solely as a matter of choice, not technical limitation? (I can do begging the question too )


No, I have also never claimed that they are not doing simply it because they choose not to. My reasoning is almost as sinister. I believe they don't do it because it is more profitable to them to not do it (not just saving the expense of the labor/coding/debugging etc. either)



> *Wow. Did you really just ask that? Number of subscribers has nothing to do (at least not directly) with what people want*. A novel idea of gaining an objective view of what customers want is to TALK TO THEM. Not merely take their money and move on. You ask them what they want. You gather the data. You prioritize it and you rank it, then you go off and start building it. I mean under the logic you present, as long as they have new subscribers or grow at all, there's no reason for them to improve anything or do anything new.


Are you seriously making this claim? If people are not getting what they want they stay why? Yes, I realize there is a two year commitment but that is not the only reason.


----------



## Doug Brott

prospero63 said:


> Well, someone who seems to be in the "wink, wink" know claims that the only reason they haven't done it is because they don't want to.


Three posters .. that I recall .. have stated this reason. I can say unequivocally that none of these three posters are 'in the "wink, wink" know'


----------



## prospero63

Albie said:


> If you're in a service industry and you're the new guy on the block and you're not doing it cheaper and providing better service than the entrenched incumbents then it is likely you won't last too long.


Wow. I think that single sentence sums up why the American auto industry is in such shambles. Adapt or die. Being entrenched doesn't mean you have to abandon providing better service or doing things cheaper.



> No, I have also never claimed that they are not doing simply it because they choose not to. My reasoning is almost as sinister. I believe they don't do it because it is more profitable to them to not do it (not just saving the expense of the labor/coding/debugging etc. either)


I never said you did claim that. I referenced another posters statement to that effect.

I can see that. And I agree, it's worse.



> Are you seriously making this claim?


Making what claim? That a more effective measurement of what your customers want than subscriber number is to actually talk to them? Yeah, call me crazy, but I am.

Now I want to do the "are you seriously making this claim" thing.

Are you seriously making this claim? If subscribers aren't dropping then customers are getting everything they want?



> If people are not getting what they want they stay why? Yes, I realize there is a two year commitment but that is not the only reason.


Among numerous reasons, people stay because they don't like change. They stay because they don't want to spend money to buy new equipment, to have to learn new equipment, etc.


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> Three posters .. that I recall .. have stated this reason. I can say unequivocally that none of these three posters are 'in the "wink, wink" know'


2 point blank questions, just to clarify.

Does DirecTV have all the technical means necessary to deliver DLB?

Is the reason that DirecTV does not provide DLB functionality to their customers solely (or predominantly) a case of them simply choosing not to do it?


----------



## Doug Brott

prospero63 said:


> 2 point blank questions, just to clarify.
> 
> Does DirecTV have all the technical means necessary to deliver DLB?


There are no Patent issues and DIRECTV has a highly talented staff from what I can tell.



prospero63 said:


> Is the reason that DirecTV does not provide DLB functionality to their customers solely (or predominantly) a case of them simply choosing not to do it?


I'm sure DIRECTV strives to continually improve the customer experience. Simple common sense should tell you that not having a highly desirable feature just for the sake of not having it doesn't contribute to that goal.


----------



## Flyrx7

prospero63 said:


> 2 point blank questions, just to clarify.
> 
> Does DirecTV have all the technical means necessary to deliver DLB?
> 
> Is the reason that DirecTV does not provide DLB functionality to their customers solely (or predominantly) a case of them simply choosing not to do it?


While a response to these questions would be great, don't expect an equivocal, difinitive answer, simply for the reason of plausible deniability.

It has been stated that yes, they do have the technical means, but the reason for not having DLB is a "trade secret" that the competition must not know the reason for, therefore you must take their word for it. Apparently it's so super secret that even though just about every single competitor out there does DLB, D* is scared to spill the beans for their reason. I suspect that it cannot be done and D* is too red-faced to admit their near-sightedness for it's exclusion.

When it all comes down to it, it all appears to be a matter of personal opinion anyhow, as it's my belief that nobody here knows the true reasons, only pretend to (wink, wink).


----------



## prospero63

Flyrx7 said:


> While a response to these questions would be great, don't expect an equivocal, difinitive answer, simply for the reason of plausible deniability.


This really amazes me. If I told one of my customers that I couldn't give them a definitive answer, odds are high they would walk me right out of their building. Plausible deniability is, IMO, a cop-out.



> It has been stated that yes, they do have the technical means, but the reason for not having DLB is a "trade secret" that the competition must not know the reason for, therefore you must take their word for it. Apparently it's so super secret that even though just about every single competitor out there does DLB, D* is scared to spill the beans for their reason. I suspect that it cannot be done and D* is too red-faced to admit their near-sightedness for it's exclusion.


:lol: Good one.



> When it all comes down to it, it all appears to be a matter of personal opinion anyhow, as it's my belief that nobody here knows the true reasons, only pretend to (wink, wink).


Quite possibly true.


----------



## prospero63

Doug Brott said:


> There are no Patent issues and DIRECTV has a highly talented staff from what I can tell.


OK.



> I'm sure DIRECTV strives to continually improve the customer experience. Simple common sense should tell you that not having a highly desirable feature just for the sake of not having it doesn't contribute to that goal.


Which of course begs the question then of "OK, then what's the hold up". To that, I don't have the slightest idea...


----------



## Flyrx7

Doug Brott said:


> There are no Patent issues and DIRECTV has a highly talented staff from what I can tell.


Doesn't really answer the question of whether or not they can do it on the HR's though. It's OK to just say you don't know.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure DIRECTV strives to continually improve the customer experience. Simple common sense should tell you that not having a highly desirable feature just for the sake of not having it doesn't contribute to that goal.


I suspect that they may be a little short in the common sense area, at least as far as DLB is concerned. I mean, how long have these threads been going on? If they had common sense, and the technical means, I'd think they'd do it just to shut us up. 2 plus years of bad press and/or unhappy customer opinions published for the world to see, on this issue alone, would seem to me to be quite a thorn in their side; one I'm sure they'd like to see go away. At least I hope it's a thorn in their side, otherwise this is all an exercise in futility.


----------



## prospero63

Flyrx7 said:


> would seem to me to be quite a thorn in their side


I try to do my part. :lol:


----------



## James Long

prospero63 said:


> This really amazes me. If I told one of my customers that I couldn't give them a definitive answer, odds are high they would walk me right out of their building. Plausible deniability is, IMO, a cop-out.


Where are they going? Satellite service is a near monopoly. The major competitors are DISH, some form of cable (in limited areas) and doing without. The options have enough problems of their own that most of the time it seems you're just picking the lesser of evils.



prospero63 said:


> 2 point blank questions, just to clarify.


Can I answer with questions?


> Does DirecTV have all the technical means necessary to deliver DLB?


Does any DirecTV DVR have DLB? If so, they have the technolgy.


> Is the reason that DirecTV does not provide DLB functionality to their customers solely (or predominantly) a case of them simply choosing not to do it?


What would be most plausible?

Getting into details just feeds the neverending debate. If you say it was a simple decision "WHY" is always the next question. The bottom line is that DLB is not on these models of DVR because DLB is not on these models of DVR. Why will never be fully answered.


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> Way to spin it.
> 
> 1) Man, you think we did bad, look at those guys!!!


LOL. Well, just stating a fact. Take it however you wish. Fact is that in the bad economy they are still finding a way to add more subs when virtually everyone else is at flatline growth or losing subs. I don't know how that isn't good but hey, that's for you to decide I guess.



> 2) The added 156K. They were forecast to add 181K. Last year/qtr they added 241K. Yep, that sounds just fine to me too. :nono2:


Yea, and in 2007 they just launched dozens and dozens of new HD channels causing a big push and we weren't in the middle of the worst recession in decades. But hey, why let facts get in the way.


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> Also, given that MRV seems to have been simmering for as long as DLB, it's not a very good measuring stick IMO. Both are woefully overdue...


Well let's introduce some facts.

1) They never announced they would ever do MRV. Only in the last couple months have there been any indication they would do MRV and here we are testing it already.

2) They never announced they would do DLB and in fact have stated on several occasions that they were *not* going to do DLB. Maybe they will surprise us all but there have no indications at all they will do it.

I guess if that is "overdue" in your mind then by all means. But for one they said flat out they wouldn't do it and the other they never said a word about it until very recently. Not sure how you can be overdue if you aren't planning to do it at all. Whatever.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

bonscott87 said:


> Well let's introduce some facts.
> 
> 2) They never announced they would do DLB and in fact have stated on several occasions that they were *not* going to do DLB. Maybe they will surprise us all but there have no indications at all they will do it.


...waiting for verizon to get some fiber to my house and my current contract with Directv to run out...

so for know I am stuck complaining to someone who probably does not care.


----------



## looter

Simple math...

With no DLB, I use my HR21 less than I would if it did have DLB. The less I use the HR21, the less inclined I am to continue subscribing to as many services and justify paying $100+ a month for TV programming.

I have already dropped my NFL Season Ticket in large part due to no DLP and also because HD is an additional $100(?) on top of an overpriced basic NFLST subscription. Because I dropped my NFLST, I also canceled 1 of my 4 receivers. You can see how this adds up to less $$ for DirecTV.

There is more than one way for DirecTV to lose money. You don't have to stop being a customer. Many customers cut back on their services because the provider is not giving them what they want.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> LOL. Well, just stating a fact. Take it however you wish. Fact is that in the bad economy they are still finding a way to add more subs when virtually everyone else is at flatline growth or losing subs. I don't know how that isn't good but hey, that's for you to decide I guess.


And I'm just stating facts as well.



> Yea, and in 2007 they just launched dozens and dozens of new HD channels causing a big push and we weren't in the middle of the worst recession in decades. But hey, why let facts get in the way.


Has nothing to do with DLB. And I agree, why let facts get in the way when we can just make excuses for DirecTV shortcomings.


----------



## prospero63

bonscott87 said:


> Well let's introduce some facts.
> 
> 1) They never announced they would ever do MRV. Only in the last couple months have there been any indication they would do MRV and here we are testing it already.
> 
> 2) They never announced they would do DLB and in fact have stated on several occasions that they were *not* going to do DLB. Maybe they will surprise us all but there have no indications at all they will do it.
> 
> I guess if that is "overdue" in your mind then by all means. But for one they said flat out they wouldn't do it and the other they never said a word about it until very recently. Not sure how you can be overdue if you aren't planning to do it at all. Whatever.


Apparently the don't announce anything, so that's really an irrelevant point. The do things or don't do things, and announcements aren't a factor at all. Well, aside from the wink, wink stuff that happens here.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

prospero63 said:


> This really amazes me. If I told one of my customers that I couldn't give them a definitive answer, odds are high they would walk me right out of their building. Plausible deniability is, IMO, a cop-out.
> :lol: Good one.
> Quite possibly true.


I find your debate on DirecTV not revealing the reasons for not having DLB being a business folly very interesting. You seem to imply that because they've decided not to include it is very bad for their business.

I might agree if subscribers were asking DirecTV about DLB and there was criticism in the press but that just ain't so.

Further the only substantial input to DirecTV about DLB is from forums like DBSTalk.

Considering the millions of subs they have, the several thousand that are complaining, how ever loudly, are almost insignificant. It may be a cop-out but in the big business picture, it's not much of an issue for DirecTV.

I could argue this(complete supposition BTW)&#8230;.. :grin:

1. DLB isn't included because it is tied into some future feature set&#8230;.AKA "something better". Telling us why could give away the future path of the HR series thus release proprietary information that might be of interest to the competition.

OR

2. DLB isn't included because they've gotten so far into development (yes poor planning) that to try to code it in would potentially impact current features as well as those already in planning. Would you want to reveal that to the world?

OR

3. DLB is coming but not very high on the priority list and they will get to it when they're ready. Not gonna tell the world that one either.

If not disclosing the plan (or lack there of) for DLB was going to have any effect on DirecTV's business, it would have happened two years ago when DirecTV quit saying they were working on it and said they decided not to include it. 

Mike


----------



## prospero63

MicroBeta said:


> I find your debate on DirecTV not revealing the reasons for not having DLB being a business folly very interesting. You seem to imply that because they've decided not to include it is very bad for their business.


No, I'm not implying anything. Someone else who seems to be "in the know" stated that, and since at the time no one had objected to the statement, I took it as potentially the case. I don't know if it is or isn't.



> I might agree if subscribers were asking DirecTV about DLB and there was criticism in the press but that just ain't so.


Yes, there is no criticism in the press and no subscribers are asking about it. From a single google search:
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...v-hr21-directv-plus/4852-6474_7-32896646.html
http://nytimes.com.com/digital-vide...v-hr21-directv-plus/4852-6474_7-32896646.html
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3QO6B3MZ2F836
http://www10.dealtime.com/xPO-Philips-DIRECTV-HR20-700S-HD-Receiver-and-Digital-Video-Recorder#
http://www.hi-tech-tv.com/category/directv/
http://mrblog.org/tag/directv/
http://www.ciao.com/Hughes_DIRECTV_Plus_HD_DVR_HR20__10054945
http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/12/hands-on-user-review-of-the-r15-directv-plus-dvr/
http://www.epinions.com/review/DIRE...lite_Television_Receiver/content_264281886340

At the point, anyone claiming that no customers are asking for DLB is being intellectually dishonest.



> Further the only substantial input to DirecTV about DLB is from forums like DBSTalk.


As a basic search spending almost no time proves, this is wholly and completely incorrect.



> Considering the millions of subs they have, the several thousand that are complaining, how ever loudly, are almost insignificant. It may be a cop-out but in the big business picture, it's not much of an issue for DirecTV.
> 
> I could argue this(complete supposition BTW)&#8230;.. :grin:


I have no doubt that you could continue to erroneously claim that no one is asking for DLB and thus the fact that DirecTV doesn't have it is only really a concern for a couple of folks that post on the forum only.

BTW, does DirecTV listen to the CE folks? How many of those people are there? 100? 200?



> 1. DLB isn't included because it is tied into some future feature set&#8230;.AKA "something better". Telling us why could give away the future path of the HR series thus release proprietary information that might be of interest to the competition.


Ah, the wink, wink "something better is coming" thing.



> OR
> 
> 2. DLB isn't included because they've gotten so far into development (yes poor planning) that to try to code it in would potentially impact current features as well as those already in planning. Would you want to reveal that to the world?


Sooner or later incompetence becomes clear. Hiding just makes a company look worse.



> OR
> 
> 3. DLB is coming but not very high on the priority list and they will get to it when they're ready. Not gonna tell the world that one either.


Yes, when one makes no commitments it's easy to say "we didn't fail to achieve something". I mean, to carry on a point from another discussion, it can't be vaporware if we never say what we are doing.



> If not disclosing the plan (or lack there of) for DLB was going to have any effect on DirecTV's business, it would have happened two years ago when *DirecTV quit saying they were working on it and said they decided not to include it*.
> 
> Mike


Links to support any of that?


----------



## bonscott87

prospero63 said:


> Well, aside from the wink, wink stuff that happens here.


Ahhh, I understand now. You're from another site trying to stir up trouble. Proceed. :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

prospero63 said:


> No, I'm not implying anything. Someone else who seems to be "in the know" stated that, and since at the time no one had objected to the statement, I took it as potentially the case. I don't know if it is or isn't.
> 
> As a basic search spending almost no time proves, this is wholly and completely incorrect.
> 
> I have no doubt that you could continue to erroneously claim that no one is asking for DLB and thus the fact that DirecTV doesn't have it is only really a concern for a couple of folks that post on the forum only.
> 
> BTW, does DirecTV listen to the CE folks? How many of those people are there? 100? 200?
> 
> Ah, the wink, wink "something better is coming" thing.
> 
> Sooner or later incompetence becomes clear. Hiding just makes a company look worse.
> 
> Yes, when one makes no commitments it's easy to say "we didn't fail to achieve something". I mean, to carry on a point from another discussion, it can't be vaporware if we never say what we are doing.
> 
> *Links to support any of that?*


That explains a lot. 

Please read this thread (What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?) and the previous DLB thread, link below.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

What you'll find is that near the beginning of the original DLB thread (Nov'ish 2006), DirecTV was saying that they were working on implementation of DLB.

A few months later (March-ish 2007) DirecTV said that they decided to not implement DLB.

Further, you'll find the "something better" discussed in detail here (What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers?) and in the following thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=127704

You'll also find that "somthing better" isn't a wink, wink kinda situation. It's what we were told in the chat room by a representative from DirecTV.



> Yes, there is no criticism in the press and no subscribers are asking about it. From a single google search:
> http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-vid...v-hr21-directv-plus/4852-6474_7-32896646.html
> http://nytimes.com.com/digital-vide...v-hr21-directv-plus/4852-6474_7-32896646.html
> http://www.amazon.com/review/R3QO6B3MZ2F836
> http://www10.dealtime.com/xPO-Philips-DIRECTV-HR20-700S-HD-Receiver-and-Digital-Video-Recorder#
> http://www.hi-tech-tv.com/category/directv/
> http://mrblog.org/tag/directv/
> http://www.ciao.com/Hughes_DIRECTV_Plus_HD_DVR_HR20__10054945
> http://www.engadget.com/2005/11/12/hands-on-user-review-of-the-r15-directv-plus-dvr/
> http://www.epinions.com/review/DIRE...lite_Television_Receiver/content_264281886340
> 
> At the point, anyone claiming that no customers are asking for DLB is being intellectually dishonest.


I'm dishonest? Really?

Who ever said "no customers are asking for DLB"? I don't understand how you made the leap from small numbers compared to the total to saying "no customers".

You have links but to say that translates to large numbers of complaints directly to DirecTV doesn't hold water. By your reckoning the back lash against DirecTV and DVR+ line should be huge and well it isn't.

Let's say there are 20-30 posts following an online review&#8230;and lets say a hundred such reviews totaling some&#8230;heck lets push that to 5000 posts. Now let's compare that to the total number of subs DirecTV has. To believe that is significant compared to total amount of feed back DirecTV receives isn't intellectually dishonest. It's just plain naïve.

I stand by my assertion that the number of complaints DirecTV gets over DLB is insignificant compared to the total volume of feedback. Further, I stand by my assertion the number of subs actually complaining is small compared to the total.

And, standing by my assertions, I don't for a second believe that it's "intellectually dishonest". I believe it's a fairly reasonable analysis after reading the threads and using all the info available to me.

In the end DirecTV finally said they weren't going to implement DLB. Any speculation about why is just that.

BTW, DLB hasn't existed in the DVR+ receivers since their inception in early 2006. Any speculation about how the lack of DLB is going to affect the subscriber numbers must be bore out in the nearly three years since the DVR+ introduced. You tell me. Has DirecTV subscribers risen or dropped since then.

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

At this point I don't really care if D* intended/intends to do DLB or not. The fact remains that a fair number of boisterous subscribers care to mount a grass roots effort to let them know that it is a desired feature that many feel is necessary to their entire TV enjoyment. As a publicly traded company I feel it's my duty to be heard on this matter.
Whether or not the intended outcome is for or against DLB, I will not just sit here idly by and let them continue without implementation. So be forewarned, I'll be here until it happens. I may be the only one left and get censored by the mods on every other post, but I feel strongly enough in this that I really don't care about that. Just consider me a one man picket line, carrying my "I want my DLB" sign and wearing my tin-foil hat! 

I'm thinking of making up T-shirts and printing up bumper stickers!

Any questions on where I stand? lol!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Flyrx7 said:


> At this point I don't really care if D* intended/intends to do DLB or not. The fact remains that a fair number of boisterous subscribers care to mount a grass roots effort to let them know that it is a desired feature that many feel is necessary to their entire TV enjoyment. As a publicly traded company I feel it's my duty to be heard on this matter.
> Whether or not the intended outcome is for or against DLB, I will not just sit here idly by and let them continue without implementation. So be forewarned, I'll be here until it happens. I may be the only one left and get censored by the mods on every other post, but I feel strongly enough in this that I really don't care about that. Just consider me a one man picket line, carrying my "I want my DLB" sign and wearing my tin-foil hat!
> 
> I'm thinking of making up T-shirts and printing up bumper stickers!
> 
> Any questions on where I stand? lol!


I'm with ya. 

I really like DLB and none of the workarounds fit how we like to use it.

Did you happen to copy and send one of the letters in the first post of the original DLB thread. I wrote letter #2 and did the DVR research that is that post.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

Mike


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Do you have any design plans for that tin foil hat of yours? I would like to make my own.



Flyrx7 said:


> At this point I don't really care if D* intended/intends to do DLB or not. The fact remains that a fair number of boisterous subscribers care to mount a grass roots effort to let them know that it is a desired feature that many feel is necessary to their entire TV enjoyment. As a publicly traded company I feel it's my duty to be heard on this matter.
> Whether or not the intended outcome is for or against DLB, I will not just sit here idly by and let them continue without implementation. So be forewarned, I'll be here until it happens. I may be the only one left and get censored by the mods on every other post, but I feel strongly enough in this that I really don't care about that. Just consider me a one man picket line, carrying my "I want my DLB" sign and wearing my tin-foil hat!
> 
> I'm thinking of making up T-shirts and printing up bumper stickers!
> 
> Any questions on where I stand? lol!


----------



## Richierich

I haven't been following this thread real close so when is DLB going to be IMPLEMENTED???


----------



## Que

looter said:


> Simple math...
> 
> With no DLB, I use my HR21 less than I would if it did have DLB. The less I use the HR21, the less inclined I am to continue subscribing to as many services and justify paying $100+ a month for TV programming.
> 
> I have already dropped my NFL Season Ticket in large part due to no DLP and also because HD is an additional $100(?) on top of an overpriced basic NFLST subscription. Because I dropped my NFLST, I also canceled 1 of my 4 receivers. You can see how this adds up to less $$ for DirecTV.
> 
> There is more than one way for DirecTV to lose money. You don't have to stop being a customer. Many customers cut back on their services because the provider is not giving them what they want.


There are also user like myself that does not upgrade to HR2x. Just waiting it out. I would love to have more HD, mainly only watch OTA HD but..... I'm sure I would watch more of D* up converted. Looks a lot better then SD.

I wish CSR had some kind of poll/tally system on "How to change to the other turner." "How to swap tuners" or just do a mass mailer: How can we make your DVR better.


----------



## Que

MicroBeta said:


> I find your debate on DirecTV not revealing the reasons for not having DLB being a business folly very interesting. You seem to imply that because they've decided not to include it is very bad for their business.
> 
> I might agree if subscribers were asking DirecTV about DLB and there was criticism in the press but that just ain't so.
> 
> Further the only substantial input to DirecTV about DLB is from forums like DBSTalk.
> 
> Considering the millions of subs they have, the several thousand that are complaining, how ever loudly, are almost insignificant. It may be a cop-out but in the big business picture, it's not much of an issue for DirecTV.
> 
> I could argue this(complete supposition BTW)&#8230;.. :grin:
> 
> 1. DLB isn't included because it is tied into some future feature set&#8230;.AKA "something better". Telling us why could give away the future path of the HR series thus release proprietary information that might be of interest to the competition.
> 
> OR
> 
> 2. DLB isn't included because they've gotten so far into development (yes poor planning) that to try to code it in would potentially impact current features as well as those already in planning. Would you want to reveal that to the world?
> 
> OR
> 
> 3. DLB is coming but not very high on the priority list and they will get to it when they're ready. Not gonna tell the world that one either.
> 
> If not disclosing the plan (or lack there of) for DLB was going to have any effect on DirecTV's business, it would have happened two years ago when DirecTV quit saying they were working on it and said they decided not to include it.
> 
> Mike


I take #2 for $199 Mike!


----------



## Que

prospero63 said:


> /snip/


Hey prospero63, you can also snail mail Office of the President


----------



## louiss3000

I too have not followed the thread closely, but each time I check it, I see the 2 'camps' growing further apart. 

There are the 'I miss DLB, I liked DLB, DLB was one of the coolest things about TiVo! folks. I belong to that group.

Then there are the 'you're crazy if you want DLB',and the 'I'll do anything I can to derail any future implementation of LDB' folks.

I'm curious why the arguments get so heated. It's a feature some of us miss and want very much to return. If you don't want DLB, don't use it.

Just my expecting to be flamed opinion.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Que said:


> I take #2 for $199 Mike!


That's always been my theory. 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> So be forewarned, I'll be here until it happens. I may be the only one left ..., but I feel strongly enough in this that I really don't care about that. Just consider me a one man picket line, carrying my "I want my DLB" sign and wearing my tin-foil hat!


I doubt you will be the only one left .. and as long as it's about DLB .. post away ..


----------



## Doug Brott

louiss3000 said:


> I too have not followed the thread closely, but each time I check it, I see the 2 'camps' growing further apart.
> 
> There are the 'I miss DLB, I liked DLB, DLB was one of the coolest things about TiVo! folks. I belong to that group.
> 
> Then there are the 'you're crazy if you want DLB',and the 'I'll do anything I can to derail any future implementation of LDB' folks.
> 
> I'm curious why the arguments get so heated. It's a feature some of us miss and want very much to return. If you don't want DLB, don't use it.
> 
> Just my expecting to be flamed opinion.


The conversation has been quite civil, IMHO. Regardless there really hasn't been anyone saying that they don't want DLB for a very long time.


----------



## BattleScott

louiss3000 said:


> I too have not followed the thread closely, but each time I check it, I see the 2 'camps' growing further apart.
> 
> There are the 'I miss DLB, I liked DLB, DLB was one of the coolest things about TiVo! folks. I belong to that group.
> 
> Then there are the 'you're crazy if you want DLB',and the 'I'll do anything I can to derail any future implementation of LDB' folks.
> 
> I'm curious why the arguments get so heated. It's a feature some of us miss and want very much to return. If you don't want DLB, don't use it.
> 
> Just my expecting to be flamed opinion.


The emotions come from a collision of multiple camps. In this topic, you not only have the Tivo vs. +DVR camps, but you also have the added DirecTV(good) vs. DirecTV(evil) camps. Debates between them (especially theoretical ones such as this) are usually 'emotional', put them together and you get this...

In my opnion, I think the DLB functionality was purposely omitted for cost reasons as well as to avoid potential areas where Tivo might have grounds for legal action should the divorce get really ugly.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> The emotions come from a collision of multiple camps. In this topic, you not only have the Tivo vs. +DVR camps, but you also have the added DirecTV(good) vs. DirecTV(evil) camps. Debates between them (especially theoretical ones such as this) are usually 'emotional', put them together and you get this...
> 
> In my opnion, I think the DLB functionality was purposely omitted for cost reasons as well as to avoid potential areas where Tivo might have grounds for legal action should the divorce get really ugly.


The legal/patent argument was dispelled long ago. Here are some of the posts

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1409614&postcount=2655

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1392257&postcount=2510

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1390433&postcount=2484

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343588&postcount=2306

That coupled with the fact that prior to the current agreement, TiVo & DirecTV had an agreement to not take action against each other for use of patented feature in each others DVRs until 2010. 

Mike


----------



## Flyrx7

MicroBeta said:


> Did you happen to copy and send one of the letters in the first post of the original DLB thread. I wrote letter #2 and did the DVR research that is that post.
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
> 
> Mike


I have. It's been a very long time ago though and probably needs to be revisited.

I did, however, mention DLB in the feedback portion of their website the other day. Apparently I got some free movie tickets for being "special" or something, and there was a feedback/suggestion window.

The response so far was something like this:

"We value your opinions about our equipment, so I have forwarded your request to DIRECTV management, who review every suggestion, inquiry and complaint for trends from our most important customers to determine what changes should be considered.

We're glad you're one of our loyal customers. It's feedback like yours that helps us remain America's #1 Satellite provider.

We thank you for your continued support!"

I'm sure it's a canned response, but a response nonetheless, although I haven't heard back from "management" just yet. I am hopeful that that correspondence will be enough of a motivator for them to implement DLB, so you guys will know who to thank! 

Regards,
Frank


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> The legal/patent argument was dispelled long ago. Here are some of the posts
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1409614&postcount=2655
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1392257&postcount=2510
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1390433&postcount=2484
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1343588&postcount=2306
> 
> That coupled with the fact that prior to the current agreement, TiVo & DirecTV had an agreement to not take action against each other for use of patented feature in each others DVRs until 2010.
> 
> Mike


What may have been dispelled is if in fact Tivo might hold a patent on "DLB" specifically. I don't see anything but heresay (albeit from a reputable source) in the links provided that speaks to decisions that were made about including it in the D* products.
The problem with infringement suits is that many times they are subject to interpretation as to whether a specific process, methodology, or unique implimentation of a design may have been unlawfully copied. Whether or not that would have been the case had D* implimented a DLB system in their 'dual-tuner' DVR, I have no idea. The problem is that Tivo does hold a loose patent for dual tuner dvr technology and anything a competitior does (just ask Dish) that makes their device "more similar' exposes them to potential litigation. Lawsuits, whether lost or not, can be extremely expensive to fight. In my opinion, D* would have had to consider this at design time and chose not to include it as it would make their device 'more similar'.
Also, once the child support agreement expired in 2010, all bets would theoretically have be off and Tivo would have been free to persue damages if they chose. Interesting that a new agreement was signed and a new Tivo based DirecTV product is scheduled to arrive somewhere around that time...


----------



## Doug Brott

The "2010" agreement was one that replaced a "2007" agreement (each was 3 years long I believe). The new agreement is through 2015 with an option to extend through 2018.

In any event, the lack of DLB has nothing to do with Patent Infringement.


----------



## Jhon69

Well I have never had DLB before.But because of this thread and the DirecTivo one it intrigued me to purchase an used HR10-250 to get DLB.Now I don't care anything about sports I feel I need to make that issue perfectly clear also I don't have an HDTV nor do I expect to upgrade to HD for quite awhile.I like DirecTV's national basic channels and the fact they offer both feeds of HBO Family and the fact channels don't disappear.:sure:

Do I see a benefit for me using DLB? Yes I do.I can set up two channels and if the first channel doesn't get interesting I can press the down arrow and rewind to watch the second channel it's makes no sense to me for DirecTV not to offer this feature with their other DVRs.But I won't be affected for quite awhile because I'm SD and I have it now with DirecTV.I also run DirecTV's DVR+ R22-100 on my one RPTV.Would DLB added to my R22-100 make my DirecTV viewing experience a better one? Yes It would.

So let's see what we have learned DLB?Good!,No DLB? Bad!.DirecTV has the best satellite service why not offer the best technology to make all of DirecTV's subscriber's viewing experience a better one? It just makes common sense.


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> In any event, the lack of DLB has nothing to do with Patent Infringement.


Given the state of the relationship with Tivo at the time of development and what was happening in the courts with Tivo vs. DISH, there is absolutely no way you will convince me that potential sources of litigation were not being considered at the time of development. Until someone can offer a more rational and supported theory as to why it wasn't initally included, is not currently included, and has all but been acknowledged that it never will be included, then I'll be convinced it was indeed a factor in the decision.


----------



## Que

TiVo is not the only DVR with DLB. Every other DVR out there - D* plus line has DLB.

List of some DVRs with DLB

S3/TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network – ViP622
Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> Given the state of the relationship with Tivo at the time of development and what was happening in the courts with Tivo vs. DISH, there is absolutely no way you will convince me that potential sources of litigation were not being considered at the time of development. Until someone can offer a more rational and supported theory as to why it wasn't initally included, is not currently included, and has all but been acknowledged that it never will be included, then I'll be convinced it was indeed a factor in the decision.


I'd like to take a shot at a rational argument.... :grin:

Hypothetically speaking&#8230;..

Let's assume that DLB is patented by TiVo (I don't believe it is but&#8230;.that's another discussion).

Under an agreement not to seek action for patent infringement DirecTV adds DLB to the DVR+ line and TiVo adds what ever patented feature of DirecTV's they want.

Now that agreement runs out.

Does DirecTV have to then scrap the DVR+ line because it has DLB. In my opinion, No. Why even make such an agreement if you're going to have to downgrade your receivers afterwards.

It makes sense to me that at the end of the agreement (assuming no other agreements) no further patented features may be used. I believe the battalion of lawyers that hammered out that contract would have allowed for the continued use in existing equipment.

Had DirecTV and TiVo not reached another agreement then they would have gone their merry way. 

IMHO, even if it were a patented feature, DirecTV and TiVo had an agreement that specifically allowed the use of each others patented features so it's a non-issue and not related to the reason the DVR+ doesn't have DLB. I've seen nothing that makes me believe otherwise.

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

BattleScott said:


> In my opnion, I think the DLB functionality was purposely omitted for cost reasons as well as to avoid potential areas where Tivo might have grounds for legal action should the divorce get really ugly.


Nope. This has been explained _ad infinitum_.

DLB isn't present for one reason: DirecTV simply *chooses* not to implement it. There are no technical, legal, physical, emotional, psychological, physiological, meteorological, astronomical, or gynecological reasons behind their decision.


----------



## puffnstuff

Lord Vader said:


> Nope. This has been explained _ad infinitum_.
> 
> DLB isn't present for one reason: DirecTV simply *chooses* not to implement it. There are no technical, legal, physical, emotional, psychological, physiological, meteorological, astronomical, or gynecological reasons behind their decision.


Best post I've read all day  Not sure about physical when I think about where their heads were when making the decision to not have DLB .


----------



## BattleScott

Lord Vader said:


> Nope. This has been explained _ad infinitum_.
> 
> DLB isn't present for one reason: DirecTV simply *chooses* not to implement it. There are no technical, legal, physical, emotional, psychological, physiological, meteorological, astronomical, or gynecological reasons behind their decision.


So, did they spin the "wheel of features" to decide what to include, or did they made concious decisions on whether or not to implement the various items?


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> I'd like to take a shot at a rational argument.... :grin:
> 
> Hypothetically speaking&#8230;..
> 
> Let's assume that DLB is patented by TiVo (I don't believe it is but&#8230;.that's another discussion).
> 
> Under an agreement not to seek action for patent infringement DirecTV adds DLB to the DVR+ line and TiVo adds what ever patented feature of DirecTV's they want.
> 
> Now that agreement runs out.
> 
> Does DirecTV have to then scrap the DVR+ line because it has DLB. In my opinion, No. Why even make such an agreement if you're going to have to downgrade your receivers afterwards.
> 
> It makes sense to me that at the end of the agreement (assuming no other agreements) no further patented features may be used. I believe the battalion of lawyers that hammered out that contract would have allowed for the continued use in existing equipment.
> 
> Had DirecTV and TiVo not reached another agreement then they would have gone their merry way.
> 
> IMHO, even if it were a patented feature, DirecTV and TiVo had an agreement that specifically allowed the use of each others patented features so it's a non-issue and not related to the reason the DVR+ doesn't have DLB. I've seen nothing that makes me believe otherwise.
> 
> Mike


Tivo does not hold a patent specific to DLB, they do hold a patent on a process titled "Multimedia Time Warping". This is the patent at the center of the infringment suit of Dish Network.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> Tivo does not hold a patent specific to DLB, they do hold a patent on a process titled "Multimedia Time Warping". This is the patent at the center of the infringment suit of Dish Network.


TiVo has lots of patents. :grin:

My point was I didn't think that DirecTV had to worry patent infringment with any feature. DLB was just an example.

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> TiVo has lots of patents. :grin:
> 
> My point was I didn't think that DirecTV had to worry patent infringment with any feature. DLB was just an example.
> 
> Mike


They didn't have to worry AFTER the 2007 extension was signed. Furthermore, the agreement may also 'protect' certain features as much as allow free use of others. The inhouse dvrs were already in service at that time so the safety from infringment lawsuits did not exist at the time they were being designed. I think DLB as well as many other features would have been evaluated for infringment potential.

We have been told that there is no technological limitation in the hardware that would prevent the inclusion of DLB, so I must assume that a conscious decison was made to NOT include it. It is obviously a popular feature among DVR users, so I have to summize that whatever the reason(s) they must be strong enough to override the benefits of including it. Aside from simple spite, fear of litigation is the only explanation that makes any degree of sense.

Perhaps the hardware really is not capable of DLB or oversights were made during design that would be too costly to correct, but we have also been assured that neither of these are the case, so for now, I'm sticking with the only option that makes sense.

If there doesn't seem to be a "logical" reason for something, then there must be a "legal" one.


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> Tivo does not hold a patent specific to DLB, they do hold a patent on a process titled "Multimedia Time Warping". This is the patent at the center of the infringment suit of Dish Network.


ReplayTV has been issued a Patent for  Video data recorder with integrated channel guides (August 7, 1998) which states:


> 1. A method for allowing recording of video signals for later playback comprising





> 18. The method as recited by claim 1 further comprising the user selecting functions from one of play, rewind and fast forward while the selected shows are being recorded.


TiVo's Multimedia time warping system Patent (July 30, 1998) covers pretty much the exact same functionality.


> The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program


As you can see, these two Patents were granted at almost the same time .. and as far as I can tell both are valid. As you know DIRECTV bought ReplayTV not so long ago (really DIRECTV bought the ReplayTV Patents as ReplayTV was just a holding company at the time). Clearly, this purchase was to have some ammunition regarding any Patent Lawsuits.

The TiVo Patent that you cite is the biggie .. This is the one that basically makes a DVR useful. However, it doesn't have anything to do with recording 2 things and swapping back and forth between them .. a.k.a. Dual Live Buffers. My point being that the Patent covers recording/playback .. period. Doesn't matter if it's single or dual (or triple, or quadruple, etc.).

So bottom line, DIRECTV had already covered themselves in 2007 by buying ReplayTV (at least for the "big" feature). This was in addition to extending a non-litigation agreement (through 2010) in 2006. Yet still, to play it safe, DIRECTV & TiVo signed another non-litigation agreement in 2008 covering through 2015 with an option through 2018. Wonder why the time period is longer that 3 years now .

So, from what I can see, DIRECTV and TiVo are likely on very even footing with regards to Patents (hence the non-litigation agreements). So back to the point, there is no way that DLB is related to an Patent infringement issue. DIRECTV has, throughout the entire process, maintained a relationship with TiVo so that it wouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> They didn't have to worry AFTER the 2007 extension was signed. Furthermore, the agreement may also 'protect' certain features as much as allow free use of others. The inhouse dvrs were already in service at that time so the safety from infringment lawsuits did not exist at the time they were being designed. I think DLB as well as many other features would have been evaluated for infringment potential.
> 
> We have been told that there is no technological limitation in the hardware that would prevent the inclusion of DLB, so I must assume that a conscious decison was made to NOT include it. It is obviously a popular feature among DVR users, so I have to summize that whatever the reason(s) they must be strong enough to override the benefits of including it. Aside from simple spite, fear of litigation is the only explanation that makes any degree of sense.
> 
> Perhaps the hardware really is not capable of DLB or oversights were made during design that would be too costly to correct, but we have also been assured that neither of these are the case, so for now, I'm sticking with the only option that makes sense.
> 
> If there doesn't seem to be a "logical" reason for something, then there must be a "legal" one.


We know the hardware is capable. It can have both tuners in use so the hardware isn't the issue.

Also the HR20-700 uses the BCM7411/BMC7038 which, IIRC is also used in the ViP622.

AAMOF it has been shown that the HR20, in certain situations, actually does DLB now.

Here is one example and there are others in the previous DLB thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=88671

The reason I disagree with the legal issue is that since it's a matter of software, DirecTV could have added DLB to the DVR+ platform without any redesign of the unit. If they were so inclined they could have added DLB at any time they wanted and actually acknowledged (through DBSTalk Mods) that they were working on implementing it.

My theory is that they let it go too long and couldn't code it separately without impacting existing features and possibly features in development.

I also think that since DirecTV acknowledged that "something better" is coming when asked about DLB leads me to believe that a future feature will have a DLBish component.

It's a theory. :grin:

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> ReplayTV has been issued a Patent for  Video data recorder with integrated channel guides (August 7, 1998) which states:
> 
> TiVo's Multimedia time warping system Patent (July 30, 1998) covers pretty much the exact same functionality.
> 
> As you can see, these two Patents were granted at almost the same time .. and as far as I can tell both are valid. As you know DIRECTV bought ReplayTV not so long ago (really DIRECTV bought the ReplayTV Patents as ReplayTV was just a holding company at the time). Clearly, this purchase was to have some ammunition regarding any Patent Lawsuits.
> 
> The TiVo Patent that you cite is the biggie .. This is the one that basically makes a DVR useful. However, it doesn't have anything to do with recording 2 things and swapping back and forth between them .. a.k.a. Dual Live Buffers. My point being that the Patent covers recording/playback .. period. Doesn't matter if it's single or dual (or triple, or quadruple, etc.).
> 
> So bottom line, DIRECTV had already covered themselves in 2007 by buying ReplayTV (at least for the "big" feature). This was in addition to extending a non-litigation agreement (through 2010) in 2006. Yet still, to play it safe, DIRECTV & TiVo signed another non-litigation agreement in 2008 covering through 2015 with an option through 2018. Wonder why the time period is longer that 3 years now .
> 
> So, from what I can see, DIRECTV and TiVo are likely on very even footing with regards to Patents (hence the non-litigation agreements). So back to the point, there is no way that DLB is related to an Patent infringement issue. DIRECTV has, throughout the entire process, maintained a relationship with TiVo so that it wouldn't be a problem.


We must not be reading the same patent. From the abstract overview of the Patent:

A multimedia time warping system. *The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.* A preferred embodiment of the invention accepts television (TV) input streams in a multitude of forms, for example, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) or PAL broadcast, and digital forms such as Digital Satellite System (DSS), Digital Broadcast Services (DBS), or Advanced Television Standards Committee (ATSC)...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> We must not be reading the same patent. From the abstract overview of the Patent:
> 
> A multimedia time warping system. *The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.* A preferred embodiment of the invention accepts television (TV) input streams in a multitude of forms, for example, National Television Standards Committee (NTSC) or PAL broadcast, and digital forms such as Digital Satellite System (DSS), Digital Broadcast Services (DBS), or Advanced Television Standards Committee (ATSC)...


Isn't that what Doug said?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. :scratchin

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

The way I read it, the Replay patent is only referencing the recording and manipulation of a single stream. The Tivo patent specifically addresses the handling of multiple streams.


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> My theory is that they let it go too long and couldn't code it separately without impacting existing features and possibly features in development.


I could accept that as well, but this has also been 'denied' by those in a position to do so...



MicroBeta said:


> I also think that since DirecTV acknowledged that "something better" is coming when asked about DLB leads me to believe that a future feature will have a DLBish component.
> 
> It's a theory. :grin:
> 
> Mike


I believe they were referring to either the TIVO DVR announcement or MRV, myself.


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> The way I read it, the Replay patent is only referencing the recording and manipulation of a single stream. The Tivo patent specifically addresses the handling of multiple streams.


Why? because it says "programs" instead of "program?" The TiVo Patent is good for recording one program now .. and then one program later .. which also means "programs" ..

If your whole DLB is a Patent argument is because of the addition of the single letter 's' then, quite frankly, that is a stretch that would even break Stretch Armstrong.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> I could accept that as well, but this has also been 'denied' by those in a position to do so...


 I don't recall anyone denying that idea. Got a link?



> I believe they were referring to either the TIVO DVR announcement or MRV, myself.


TiVo maybe, but MRV isn't DLB-like.

Now we could be completely wrong but it's been generally agreed that for "something better" to actually be better it would need to have a DLB-like component.

I don't think MRV fits that frame work.

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> Why? because it says "programs" instead of "program?" The TiVo Patent is good for recording one program now .. and then one program later .. which also means "programs" ..
> 
> If your whole DLB is a Patent argument is because of the addition of the single letter 's' then, quite frankly, that is a stretch that would even break Stretch Armstrong.


*The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.*

The way I read this, the key word is 'simultaneously'. The DVR is storing 1 stream while a 2nd stream is being viewed. I do not read that in the ReplayTV patent.

I am not suggesting that "DLB" is a specifically patented feature. I am stating that during design, D* had to be specifically aware of the threat of making a device that was "too similar" to Tivo and chose not to include DLB as a precaution.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> *The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program.*
> 
> The way I read this, the key word is 'simultaneously'. The DVR is storing 1 stream while a 2nd stream is being viewed. I do not read that in the ReplayTV patent.
> 
> I am not suggesting that "DLB" is a specifically patented feature. *I am stating that during design, D* had to be specifically aware of the threat of making a device that was "too similar" to Tivo and chose not to include DLB as a precaution*.


Then why does nearly every other DVR have DLB?

The hardware for the DVR+ platform by design can do DLB.

Mike


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> I don't recall anyone denying that idea. Got a link?


I am just using the most official unofficial statement issued in post#4:

*No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
This comment is as official as it is going to get...

DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.*

So my theory is based on the premise that they CHOSE not to implement a DLB function.


----------



## Lord Vader

BattleScott said:


> We have been told that there is no technological limitation in the hardware that would prevent the inclusion of DLB, so I must assume that a conscious decison was made to NOT include it.


That is correct.



> It is obviously a popular feature among DVR users, so I have to summize that whatever the reason(s) they must be strong enough to override the benefits of including it.


From a customer's point of view, that is not true. From DirecTV's point of view, that is true. (Think $$$.)

If their reasons became known, well, let's just say the unhappy people out here would become incensed. Just my opinion, of course.



> Aside from simple spite, fear of litigation is the only explanation that makes any degree of sense.


It has nothing to do with litigation.


----------



## JBernardK

My guess is that they had so much difficulty rushing this box to market and trying to get it to do basic things that DLB was just too much of a technical challenge for them to implement. They just left out the hard stuff (DLB, season pass limit, channels you receive, etc) in order to try to get the box to record a scheduled program. I don't think you will see any of these things until they can do the basic stuff without bugs.


----------



## Lord Vader

JBernardK said:


> My guess is that they had so much difficulty rushing this box to market and trying to get it to do basic things that DLB was just too much of a technical challenge for them to implement.


Nope. As _has been said here a gazillion times_--did you even *read *prior posts?--DirecTV simply CHOOSES not to have DLB present.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> I am just using the most official unofficial statement issued in post#4:
> 
> *No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
> This comment is as official as it is going to get...
> 
> DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.*
> 
> So my theory is based on the premise that they CHOSE not to implement a DLB function.


I must be missing it because I don't see where that implies that it's a legal issue. 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

For reference for those who might be wondering where this quote came from:

The quote was from Earl 12 months ago (interestingly, almost to the day) ..


Earl Bonovich said:


> No, and they probably never will issue a press release on why they decided not include DLB as a feature in their first DVR+ system 27 months ago...
> 
> As official as it is going to get... DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in THEIR DVR platform.


you can click the







above to go to that post


----------



## JBernardK

Lord Vader said:


> Nope. As _has been said here a gazillion times_--did you even *read *prior posts?--DirecTV simply CHOOSES not to have DLB present.


That was somebody's guess--just as mine was my guess. D* never officially announced the reason for not including it, and even if they did I would take it with a grain of salt. Has GM ever said the reason for poor car sales was because of the quality of their cars?


----------



## Doug Brott

BattleScott said:


> I am just using the most official unofficial statement issued in post#4:
> 
> *No, and they probably never will issue a press release or official announcement ...
> This comment is as official as it is going to get...
> 
> DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in their DVR platform.*
> 
> So my theory is based on the premise that they CHOSE not to implement a DLB function.


Also, don't forget that there will be "Something Better."


----------



## Richierich

BOY OH BOY, I can't wait for this "Something Better Is Coming" as I know it is going to be GREAT and I hope it comes with a Pizza Baking Machine!!! :lol:

And maybe a WINE DISPENSER!!! :lol:


----------



## shadco

At this point I just wish everyone would raise as much of a stink over the audio and video skips and drop outs. They are more annoying than the lack of dlb, I've gotten used to it not being there and I don't think about it anymore, but the audio video glitches are in your face all the time.


----------



## BattleScott

MicroBeta said:


> I must be missing it because I don't see where that implies that it's a legal issue.
> 
> Mike


Because they CHOSE not to include DLB, meaning it was not an error or an oversight but a pre-meditated decision to withhold a feature from the product. 
To me, the potential for legal issues (perceived or real) is a very plausible explanation for why that decision was made.


----------



## BattleScott

Doug Brott said:


> For reference for those who might be wondering where this quote came from:
> 
> The quote was from Earl 12 months ago (interestingly, almost to the day) ..
> 
> you can click the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> above to go to that post


Very interesting that Earl capitalized the phrase THEIR DVR as if to emphasize ownership and responsibility...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

BattleScott said:


> Because they CHOSE not to include DLB, meaning it was not an error or an oversight but a pre-meditated decision to withhold a feature from the product.
> To me, the potential for legal issues (perceived or real) is a very plausible explanation for why that decision was made.


Fair enough. 

IMO, legal issues are one of the least plausible reason. I just don't think it fits. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *213 8.86%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 389 16.18% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 163 6.78%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,545 64.27%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 94 3.91%*
Voters: *2404*

Replies 3,664	
Views 139,907

Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## Steve

The drop from 77% to 64% might be because the first poll had a higher % of HR10 converts voting, so they know what DLB's are like. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> The drop from 77% to 64% might be because the first poll had a higher % of HR10 converts voting, so they know what DLB's are like. /steve


At a minimum, to compare these numbers, these two lines should be combined:

I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK.
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate.

So the percentage is more like 71% vs. 77% ..

But in any case, it's hard to draw a strong correlation between the two sets of numbers. The biggest thing you can get out of both that poll and this poll is that a lot of people want Dual Live Buffers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

My question is....hasn't it been (extensively) discussed and (repeatedly) confirmed that DLB will *not* be delivered any time in the near future?

If it's not coming....it would seem interesting to discuss the concept but foolish to discuss the delivery.

If it's coming...carry on...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My question is....hasn't it been (extensively) discussed and (repeatedly) confirmed that DLB will *not* be delivered any time in the near future?
> 
> If it's not coming....it would seem interesting to discuss the concept but foolish to discuss the delivery.
> 
> If it's coming...carry on...


This is really more of a discussion of a concept, it's implementation, and theorys on why it's missing. :grin:

de thread came back-thought she were a goner, 
but de thread came back for it wouldn't stay away


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> This is really more of a discussion of a concept, it's implementation, and theorys on why it's missing. :grin:


OK....

After over 3600 posts on the concept...anything new these days?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OK....
> 
> After over 3600 posts on the concept...anything new these days?


I didn't say it was new. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> I didn't say it was new. :lol:


:lol:

I see.......................


----------



## Richierich

WOW, this DLB THREAD horse has been beat to death so much that it looks like GOOSE LIVER PATE! :lol:


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> At a minimum, to compare these numbers, these two lines should be combined:
> 
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK.
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate.


Yup. Missed that. /steve


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Only one game this Sunday so the developers can take another week to get DLB working.


----------



## Jhon69

richierich said:


> WOW, this DLB THREAD horse has been beat to death so much that it looks like GOOSE LIVER PATE! :lol:


Bon Appatit!.:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## ToddinVA

Steve said:


> The drop from 77% to 64% might be because the first poll had a higher % of HR10 converts voting, so they know what DLB's are like. /steve


You all keep forgetting to add the nearly 4% that flat out HAVE to have it or they won't go with the new boxes. Not to mention that ones that prefer how it was done on the TiVo...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jhon69 said:


> Bon Appatit!.:beatdeadhorse:


!rolling !rolling !rolling


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jhon69 said:


> Bon Appatit!.:beatdeadhorse:


Should be sufficiently tenderized by now. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Okay, I'm Closing This Thread Down Now!


OOPS, I Forgot That I Am Not A Moderator.


----------



## Que

Steve said:


> The drop from 77% to 64% might be because the first poll had a higher % of HR10 converts voting, so they know what DLB's are like. /steve


There are 5 vote options. NO, Maybe,Maybe, yes and a hell yes!

I still like to see where the data is at every month. Very much still a hot button, after all these years.

[edit] spelling..GOOD GOD THAT WAS BAD... more coFFeE!


----------



## veryoldschool

Que said:


> This is there are 5 vote options. NO, Maybe,Maybe, yes and a hell yes!
> 
> I still like to see where the data is at every month. Very much still a hot button, after all these years.


 I wonder what the "numbers" are for those that don't care so much they don't even open/vote in this thread?
Clearly this poll is not a "true cross section" of DVR customers.
Maybe someone could do a "poll" of people on the street somewhere as it may be more reflective of this issue/problem, than those that come to this thread.


----------



## Flyrx7

veryoldschool said:


> Clearly this poll is not a "true cross section" of DVR customers.
> Maybe someone could do a "poll" of people on the street somewhere as it may be more reflective of this issue/problem, than those that come to this thread.


I guess it was inevitable that tired old arguement would come back around, how the participants here aren't a true cross section.
If you really care what the people on the street think then I think you should take your poll to the streets. I'm sure you'd find more than enough numbers there to prove your point, whatever that is.

As far as numbers go, it really doesn't matter. It's not like a majority vote is going to get it done anyhow. The only vote that really seems to matter is D*'s vote, and right now they vote "No". So we can get all the biased votes from the techies (as you imply) here in this forum or you can get all your votes from the street, in the end, I don't see any of those votes meaning much of anything. The only votes that are going to be heard are those that vote with their pocket books, and we all know that's not going to be a big impact, if even a noticable blip on D*'s radar.

With that being said, for me it's not about how many people I can convince they do or don't need DLB, it's about being heard by D*, and posting in this thread is about as "heard" as I'll be. Of course, the more people, the more "noise", so I would hope that one day we become a loud enough pain that they finally just do it to shut us up, as we all know that asking nicely hasn't gotten us anywhere yet, and my $125 a month doesn't even buy me a vote.

So anyway, I'm sure your street poll will show that the majority of people won't even know what your talking about, much less know how to spell it. But they won't be heard out there on the street. At least here D* can mine the data without so much but a couple mouse clicks. So you tell me, which cross section is going to be heard more?

Besides, I thought that D* mentioned that they like the non-typical, high end users. I'm pretty sure that ratio is better represented here in this forum as opposed to out on the street.

Regards,
Frank

(the one man, tin-foil hat wearing, picket line)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

In more simple terms...wondering why (after all these posts and time) we're still even talking about something that isn't gonna happen.

Some other recent posters seem to be asking the same question...

As for the polls, like VOS said...they are only a small slice view of the "real world".


----------



## veryoldschool

Frank, at some point DirecTV may just "pass on" this thread after the first few thousand posts. The "data mining" just might be more effort than it's worth. [first weed out repeat postings, then try to boil it down to who wants what & at what level].
"Options are good" and whether "I want it or not" shouldn't matter, but like many things, "at some point" this all just becomes "noise" and falls into the background and ignored.


----------



## Flyrx7

veryoldschool said:


> "at some point" this all just becomes "noise" and falls into the background and ignored.


Yeah, I'm sure these threads have been in D*'s "ignore" status for quite some time now and anything said here is just for our own entertainment anyhow. But as long as people here discuss and debate the issues I'll be here. Maybe someday D* will just take pity on me, maybe not.

Simply because we don't have DLB now doesn't necesarily mean it won't ever happen either. I'm really not sure where the info that it will never happen comes from, but didn't the chief technology guy say that it's coming, only better? (I know what was said to be said, so we don't have to go into the whole semantics of the quote not to be quoted, again).

Never say never, right?


----------



## veryoldschool

Flyrx7 said:


> Never say never, right?


Yeah, keep the faith [but maybe in silence :lol:]


----------



## Flyrx7

veryoldschool said:


> [but maybe in silence :lol:]


Yeah, we both know that's not going to happen.


----------



## dennisj00

It continues to amaze me that people complain about this thread when you can simply chose to ignore it. There are lots of threads on this board that I don't chime in - either positive or negative - because they don't matter to me. There are threads that I chime in if I can offer some postitive input but I don't recall that I've ever posted that someone is wasting their time.

However, I think the resiliency (sp?) of the two DLB threads show that there is NO other topic that has a stronger issue among HR owners than DLB.

Yes, I miss DLB and sometimes use the inadequate workarounds and grumble. But perhaps the most puzzling question is why it's possibly the ONLY dual-tuner DVR that doesn't have DLB?

They could easily answer that - GIVE US DLB and the thread goes away!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dennisj00 said:


> However, I think the resiliency (sp?) of the two DLB threads show that there is NO other topic that has a stronger issue among HR owners than DLB.


Or else....

...have you ever seen the movie "The Neverending Story"?


----------



## dennisj00

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Or else....
> 
> ...have you ever seen the movie "The Neverending Story"?


Or else ?? Nope, haven't seen it, looked it up and still not sure how it relates. Maybe you should explain?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

why do you think we are only allowed to post about DLB in this thread?

No one looks at it but us.



dennisj00 said:


> It continues to amaze me that people complain about this thread when you can simply chose to ignore it. There are lots of threads on this board that I don't chime in - either positive or negative - because they don't matter to me. There are threads that I chime in if I can offer some postitive input but I don't recall that I've ever posted that someone is wasting their time.
> 
> However, I think the resiliency (sp?) of the two DLB threads show that there is NO other topic that has a stronger issue among HR owners than DLB.
> 
> Yes, I miss DLB and sometimes use the inadequate workarounds and grumble. But perhaps the most puzzling question is why it's possibly the ONLY dual-tuner DVR that doesn't have DLB?
> 
> They could easily answer that - GIVE US DLB and the thread goes away!


----------



## Richierich

dennisj00 said:


> However, I think the resiliency (sp?) of the two DLB threads show that there is NO other topic that has a stronger issue among HR owners than DLB.


Or it SHOWS that some people have Nothing Better to do with their time than argue the same points over & over & over again until the rest of us start to wonder why.


----------



## dennisj00

Or maybe those that wonder why have nothing better to do!!

Who's arguing?

And occasionally a Mod stops by and explains something like the workaround. Heck, I remember LOTS of people - even MODERATORS saying that the Tivo thing was dead and guess what!

No one has said that DLB is officially dead.

I say if they can add QuickTune, they can add DLB!


----------



## Richierich

I agree with you Dennis, that if Directv wanted us to have DLB and I would kill for it, we would have had it a year ago. There is a reason and we will never know what it is. I have worked for about 30 Major Fortune 500 type companies and there was so much nonsense that never made sense because it was Political within the organization.

However, I do LOVE the QUICKTUNE FEATURE and so does my wife. However, there will be those out there that will never know it even exists much less that actually would use it.

Hell, I just learned how to use BOOKMARKS on Recorded Programs using the Green & Yellow Buttons. Wish I would have known about it a long time ago.


----------



## Lord Vader

I think I'm STILL trying to figure out bookmarks and just what the hell they do.


----------



## Flyrx7

Quicktune seems like a waste of time to me, I never use it. Now if you could use it without flushing your buffer, albeit even only one buffer, then it might be ok.
Quicktune would be perfect to use with DLB however, then I'm sure I'd use it quite a bit.


----------



## Richierich

Lord Vader said:


> I think I'm STILL trying to figure out bookmarks and just what the hell they do.


Let's say you are watching The Super Bowl and there comes a Big Play that you will want to go back and watch later because it turned the game around, it changed the whole complexion of the game. So you Bookmark it and then when you come back the next time to watch it you can go to that Bookmark to watch it again without having to search thru the whole game to find it.

Then you might want to Bookmark several different events in a game or a movie to quickly go to to show someone that event such as a BAD WRECK at Daytona 500 Nascar. When it happens you simply Hit the Pause Button, then the Green Button to Bookmark it and then when you are playing back the recording you Select the Yellow Button and tab down to Bookmark and Select it and look at the various Bookmarks you have saved.


----------



## Lord Vader

Flyrx7 said:


> Quicktune seems like a waste of time to me, I never use it.


I agree. Now, I'm not one of those who thinks that just because I find it rather useless DirecTV should not have added it; rather, I just think it's kind of pointless. Sure, it saves a couple key strokes for when you wish to tune to a 3-digit channel (which is most of them, of course), but unless I already know what's on that channel and wish to immediately tune to it, I find myself instead pulling up the guide, looking at what's on that channel, THEN deciding whether to tune to it, thus making Quick Tune moot. Just my opinion, of course.


----------



## Lord Vader

richierich said:


> Let's say you are watching The Super Bowl and there comes a Big Play that you will want to go back and watch later because it turned the game around, it changed the whole complexion of the game. So you Bookmark it and then when you come back the next time to watch it you can go to that Bookmark to watch it again without having to search thru the whole game to find it.
> 
> Then you might want to Bookmark several different events in a game or a movie to quickly go to to show someone that event such as a BAD WRECK at Daytona 500 Nascar. When it happens you simply Hit the Pause Button, then the Green Button to Bookmark it and then when you are playing back the recording you Select the Yellow Button and tab down to Bookmark and Select it and look at the various Bookmarks you have saved.


Thanks. I'm going to have to remember that. (I feel like my students when they're listening to me give lessons.)


----------



## Richierich

QuickTune is not setup for the channels I go to alot and know the channel number by heart. It is for ones that I can't remember the exact channel number but go there often.


----------



## Lord Vader

Even if I can't remember the channel numbers, I can't find myself going to a favorite channel unless I know what's currently showing on that channel, and to do so, I go to the guide, read it, then tune to it. I can't do that with Quick Tune.

Do I use QT? Yes, but very very rarely. Do I wish they never would have stuck it in there? No. It's not like my name is boltjames and I'm trying to get rid of something just because _*I*_ personally find it useless.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

richierich said:


> Let's say you are watching The Super Bowl and there comes a Big Play that you will want to go back and watch later because it turned the game around, it changed the whole complexion of the game. So you Bookmark it and then when you come back the next time to watch it you can go to that Bookmark to watch it again without having to search thru the whole game to find it.
> 
> Then you might want to Bookmark several different events in a game or a movie to quickly go to to show someone that event such as a BAD WRECK at Daytona 500 Nascar. When it happens you simply Hit the Pause Button, then the Green Button to Bookmark it and then when you are playing back the recording you Select the Yellow Button and tab down to Bookmark and Select it and look at the various Bookmarks you have saved.


Does adding bookmarks work while its being recorded as you're watching it live? (Does that question make sense?)

Or does it only work after its done recording it and you watch it later?

You can also go to bookmarks by using the "skip to tick" trick as well.


----------



## GrumpyBear

Its in the wishlist, but having a record from this point forward is also good for that kind of event. Instead of having to have a 4hr HD event with 1 or 2 bookmarks, you can have 1 or 2 events that are just minutes long.


----------



## raott

dennisj00 said:


> It continues to amaze me that people complain about this thread when you can simply chose to ignore it.


Because there are people on this board with clear agendas. So, when a thread comes up regarding a glaring shortcoming of D*, instead of ignoring the thread, they attempt to minimize and trivialize the opinions of others.


----------



## Richierich

theratpatrol said:


> Does adding bookmarks work while its being recorded as you're watching it live? (Does that question make sense?)
> 
> Or does it only work after its done recording it and you watch it later?


You can do it while in the buffer as it is recording because it puts the Bookmark into the Recording whether it is being recorded or already recorded.


----------



## James Long

raott said:


> Because there are people on this board with clear agendas. So, when a thread comes up regarding a glaring shortcoming of D*, instead of ignoring the thread, they attempt to minimize and trivialize the opinions of others.


There are also those who will bash D* over any little reason. Agendas are not limited to either side of the issue.


----------



## raott

James Long said:


> There are also those who will bash D* over any little reason. Agendas are not limited to either side of the issue.


Didn't say they were. But I'm not sure what that assertion has to do with the handful of posters who claim to not care about DLB but continue to trivialize the issue in this thread.


----------



## Richierich

raott said:


> Didn't say they were. But I'm not sure what that assertion has to do with the handful of posters who claim to not care about DLB but continue to trivialize the issue in this thread.


But after 742 Pages of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH we are AMAZED that you just don't get it!

It AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!

However, if you like to argue just for the sake of arguing and you have nothing better to do, then KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF!!!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> But after 742 Pages of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH we are AMAZED that you just don't get it!
> 
> It AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!
> 
> However, if you like to argue just for the sake of arguing and you have nothing better to do, then KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF!!!


Yeah but somethings gonna happen..."something better".. 

Mike


----------



## David MacLeod

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah but somethings gonna happen..."something better"..
> 
> Mike


yeah, that was quick tune


----------



## Tom Robertson

While I do like QuickTune, I don't think that is the something better.


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah but somethings gonna happen..."something better"..


Reminds me of a joke we used to tell back in the day, about one of our technology suppliers:

Three women were sitting around the pool and talking about their boyfriends.

The first woman said: "My boyfriend is an athlete. When we make love, he takes me in those strong arms of his and makes me feel more like a woman than any man I've ever been with."

The second woman said: "My boyfriend is an artist. He's gentle and sensitive, and when we make love, he brings me to heights of ecstasy I've never before experienced."

The third woman said: "My boyfriend is an XYZ salesman. He sits me on the edge of the bed and tells me how good it will be when I finally get it."

/steve


----------



## DC_SnDvl

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah but somethings gonna happen..."something better"..
> 
> Mike


I finally figured out where Dilbert works...

...DirecTv

:bang


----------



## Richierich

Yeah and I can't wait for that "something better" but I ain't holding my breath but I am very happy with many things Directv has done with this box (much Faster Guide & Delete Functions, QuickTune) and with MRV coming in the near future I will be extremely happy with my 6 HR2Xs until I get "DLB" in the form of a NEW MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO ("something better"). :lol:


----------



## Jhon69

richierich said:


> Yeah and I can't wait for that "something better" but I ain't holding my breath but I am very happy with many things Directv has done with this box (much Faster Guide & Delete Functions, QuickTune)and with MRV coming in the near future I will be extremely happy with my 6 HR2Xs until I get "DLB" in the form of a NEW MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO ("something better"). :lol:


This is the prime example why companies need to rethink their strategies especially when trying to make more profit.Rupert turned the boat the wrong way and the sails lost the wind.Of course you can recite the increase in subscribers.The question should be if DirecTV had stayed the course how many more subscribers would DirecTV have had? I would think even more than they have now because of DLB and anyone who says different is just kidding themselves and others.


----------



## Richierich

Thank God that Megalomaniac Rupert is gone!


----------



## Steve

Jhon69 said:


> This is the prime example why companies need to rethink their strategies especially when trying to make more profit.Rupert turned the boat the wrong way and the sails lost the wind.Of course you can recite the increase in subscribers.The question should be if DirecTV had stayed the course how many more subscribers would DirecTV have had? I would think even more than they have now because of DLB and anyone who says different is just kidding themselves and others.


I"m not so sure they lost any subscribers over lack of DLB, rather than just ticked them off. My guess is folks who might have left for greener DLB pastures are primarily sports fans who need the Season Ticket or Extra Innings packages more. I could be wrong about that, but I bet I'm not.  /steve


----------



## Richierich

So Steve, here is my question. 

When are we going to get DLB???


----------



## Mike Bertelson

richierich said:


> So Steve, here is my question.
> 
> When are we going to get DLB???


Steve wishes he knew the answer to that question.

Actually, I wish he knew. :grin:

Mike


----------



## CCarncross

We all know DLB doesnt work the way most want it to, so can we stop kicking the dead horse? If D* doesnt know by now that its a wanted feature, they never will...


----------



## raott

CCarncross said:


> We all know DLB doesnt work the way most want it to, so can we stop kicking the dead horse? If D* doesnt know by now that its a wanted feature, they never will...


Skip the thread if you do not want to see it discussed.

There is nothing wrong with not being a lemming and pushing a provider (you are otherwise mostly happy with) for a glaring lack of a standard feature.


----------



## raott

richierich said:


> But after 742 Pages of BLAH, BLAH, BLAH we are AMAZED that you just don't get it!
> 
> It AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!!
> 
> However, if you like to argue just for the sake of arguing and you have nothing better to do, then KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF!!!


Thanks for the lecture professor but I wasn't arguing anything. What I'm AMAZED at (see I can use caps and act like I'm six as well) is how active you and a select few others are in this thread as you trivialize and attempt to shout down opinions of others.

If you do not care about the feature, move on.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

CCarncross said:


> We all know DLB doesnt work the way most want it to, so can we stop kicking the dead horse? If D* doesnt know by now that its a wanted feature, they never will...


The squeeky wheel baby, the squeeky wheel. :grin:

Mike


----------



## ATARI

raott said:


> Thanks for the lecture professor but I wasn't arguing anything. What I'm AMAZED at (see I can use caps and act like I'm six as well) is how active you and a select few others are in this thread as you trivialize and attempt to shout down opinions of others.
> 
> If you do not care about the feature, move on.


Well said.


----------



## Richierich

Very good use of CAPS I might add and I am glad that you got the Lecture and have learned from it. :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks .. it's time to chill a bit .. This thread is here, this thread will remain open and it will remain civil. Let's stop talking about the thread and start talking about DLB again.

Thank You.


----------



## Sandy

Okay, DLB. 
I want it. 
DLB would make me happy.
Please give me DLB.
Pretty please.


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> So Steve, here is my question.
> 
> When are we going to get DLB???


How the heck should I know? I didn't even go to CES, or sleep at a Holiday Inn last night! :lol:

Besides, I don't want DLB. I want whatever they think is better than DLB! I'm still sittin' on the edge of the bed, tho, along with everyone else. Gettin' crowded in here!

/steve


----------



## puffnstuff

Steve said:


> How the heck should I know? I didn't even go to CES, or sleep at a Holiday Inn last night! :lol:
> 
> Besides, I don't want DLB. I want whatever they think is better than DLB! I'm still sittin' on the edge of the bed, tho, along with everyone else. Gettin' crowded in here!
> 
> /steve


There is nothing better . It was said so we could look forward to nothing , just like other vaporware Directv likes to talk about . If there was going to be something better I think we would have heard something by now . Also IF there ever is a new TIVO I still don't consider that better .


----------



## Que

puffnstuff said:


> There is nothing better . It was said so we could look forward to nothing , just like other vaporware Directv likes to talk about . If there was going to be something better I think we would have heard something by now . Also IF there ever is a new TIVO I still don't consider that better .


I don't think that DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual would lie to us. He really didn't have to say anything at all. Just let the question die but he said *"DLB could be done, we have something better coming."* Now that was back on 05-02-08. So it is taking longer then he thought. Just give it time, I'm sure it will be out before TiVo release there DVR.


----------



## Jhon69

Que said:


> I don't think that DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual would lie to us. He really didn't have to say anything at all. Just let the question die but he said *"DLB could be done, we have something better coming."* Now that was back on 05-02-08. So it is taking longer then he thought. Just give it time, I'm sure it will be out before TiVo release there DVR.


If not then we will know what"something better"is.:sure:


----------



## puffnstuff

Que said:


> I don't think that DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual would lie to us. He really didn't have to say anything at all. Just let the question die but he said *"DLB could be done, we have something better coming."* Now that was back on 05-02-08. So it is taking longer then he thought. Just give it time, I'm sure it will be out before TiVo release there DVR.


I do,they have lied before and I'm sure they will again. Also he shouldn't have said anything and we would still be where we are now,all that did was let us start a new thread about something that won't ever be here , hell it's been 9 months and not a peep . I guess what ever they are working on is just as hard as channels I get which they can't fix either. It just seems like they can't fix anything on this thing that actually has to do with DVRing just crap like autotune (big whoop) and mediashare (how long has that been in beta). I just don't understand why they don't focus on bringing us the product we thought we were buying .


----------



## GrumpyBear

puffnstuff said:


> I do,they have lied before and I'm sure they will again. Also he shouldn't have said anything and we would still be where we are now,all that did was let us start a new thread about something that won't ever be here , hell it's been 9 months and not a peep . I guess what ever they are working on is just as hard as channels I get which they can't fix either. It just seems like they can't fix anything on this thing that actually has to do with DVRing just crap like autotune (big whoop) and mediashare (how long has that been in beta). I just don't understand why they don't focus on bringing us the product we thought we were buying .


I don't think he "lied" as he didn't know the updated status. Remember it was a off hand comment, on a chat that wasn't allowed to be recorded. Lots of times C levels know what projects are going on, they aren't in touch, with the status. C levels are the starting point, they aren't always the 1st to know when something has failed, or just wont work. 
I didn't know you guys finally got Autotune, thats cool. I know you had quicktune, which is kind of a yawn, but Autotune is a really cool feature, you will use it alot.


----------



## Jhon69

GrumpyBear said:


> I don't think he "lied" as he didn't know the updated status. Remember it was a off hand comment, on a chat that wasn't allowed to be recorded. Lots of times C levels know what projects are going on, they aren't in touch, with the status. C levels are the starting point, they aren't always the 1st to know when something has failed, or just wont work.
> I didn't know you guys finally got Autotune, thats cool. I know you had quicktune, which is kind of a yawn, but Autotune is a really cool feature, you will use it alot.


Don't you mean use it alot if you had it(Autotune)?.


----------



## puffnstuff

GrumpyBear said:


> I don't think he "lied" as he didn't know the updated status. Remember it was a off hand comment, on a chat that wasn't allowed to be recorded. Lots of times C levels know what projects are going on, they aren't in touch, with the status. C levels are the starting point, they aren't always the 1st to know when something has failed, or just wont work.
> I didn't know you guys finally got Autotune, thats cool. I know you had quicktune, which is kind of a yawn, but Autotune is a really cool feature, you will use it alot.


Yeah I meant quick tune (useless feature). As for the lie part, maybe not a lie but saying something just to shut us up. Wait a minute isn't that a lie? Also since he did say something why not update us on this fantastic "something better"? Until I see it it's just vaporware, stuff Directv loves to talk about and never deliver on. Come on FIOS get with the program and bring me something real.


----------



## Steve

puffnstuff said:


> ... it's been 9 months ...


... and with 0x2ca going national this week, a new CE cycle should be starting this week-end. I wonder... time for the mods to start handing out cigars?  /steve


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Any chance we can get Romulo Pontual back and ask him where something better is?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DC_SnDvl said:


> Any chance we can get Romulo Pontual back and ask him where something better is?


Were you there last time?

I felt sorry for the guy. We were relentless.

I doubt that'll happen again.

Mike


----------



## dodge boy

So with over 1,500 votes for DLB, are they coming?


----------



## James Long

Any year now.


----------



## luckydob

Maybe Earl can help us...he knew what it was and then bolted. It's really a shame that we still don't have DLB years after the box was released.


----------



## James Long

I don't believe anyone is interested in the "why" anymore ... they just want the feature.
The why was answered, the answer was rejected. What more can anyone say?


----------



## Brandon428

Now that I have a ViP722 after having multiple HR-20s for years I have to say DLB is awesome. Really a must have feature on a premier DVR. PiP too. I didn't think I would love PiP as much as I do but watching multiple basketball games at once is addicting. Now I find myself hoping there is 2 games I want to watch on at the same time. lol. DLB is a must end of story!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

James Long said:


> I don't believe anyone is interested in the "why" anymore ... they just want the feature.
> The why was answered, the answer was rejected. What more can anyone say?


And yet, we always seem to find more to talk about. 

I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## puffnstuff

So what is this why ? Because they don't want to is not an answer to why .


----------



## Mike Bertelson

puffnstuff said:


> So what is this why ? Because they don't want to is not an answer to why .


They decided not to implement it and decided not to say why. :grin:

I'd like to know why but we rarely get to know the reasons behind business decisions.

Mike


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I missed it by 15min. but read all the posts about the chat.



MicroBeta said:


> Were you there last time?
> 
> I felt sorry for the guy. We were relentless.
> 
> I doubt that'll happen again.
> 
> Mike


----------



## mpstrunk

After returning to DIRECTV from comcast I can only say that I very much miss the ability to swap tuners. This feature was even available in comcasts clunky HD-DVR


----------



## davel

I am convinced it is a dead issue that will never be implemented!


----------



## Richierich

What are your thoughts on Dual Live Buffers? Well, my thoughts are that Dual Live Buffers are better than a Single Live Buffer!!!

Can't believe this Thread is Allowed to Continue when so many others are Closed because they are beating a dead horse!!! SIMPLY AMAZING!!! :lol:


----------



## jaybertx

Why talk about dual live buffers when we all know that the future is in QUAD LIVE BUFFERS!!! Two SWM connections into the back of an HR20 and POW!!!


----------



## Johnnie5000

jaybertx said:


> Why talk about dual live buffers when we all know that the future is in QUAD LIVE BUFFERS!!! Two SWM connections into the back of an HR20 and POW!!!


That would be awesome.


----------



## dennisj00

DLB might be closer than you think!


----------



## James Long

dennisj00 said:


> DLB might be closer than you think!


It is in the same room as me. 

(But only because I have the DVR featured in my avatar).


----------



## Que

James Long said:


> It is in the same room as me.
> 
> (But only because I have the DVR featured in my avatar).


HR10-250 ...Still works here. D* HD DVR... but only OTA HD and I'm happy.  Would love more HD channels though. Just have to wait a little longer.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

dennisj00 said:


> DLB might be closer than you think!


Source?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

dennisj00 said:


> DLB might be closer than you think!


Don't mess with me that that.

I am about as stable as my HR20 was the first year I had it (techinicaly it was 3 of them)


----------



## n3ntj

I think it's funny that we're still talking about DLB. I think D* has forgotten about this feature and moved on. We've been asking for this feature for 3+ years. When I call or email D*, they simply say they'll pass my request on to the engr dept. Same response for 3 years.


----------



## Jhon69

n3ntj said:


> I think it's funny that we're still talking about DLB. I think D* has forgotten about this feature and moved on. We've been asking for this feature for 3+ years. When I call or email D*, they simply say they'll pass my request on to the engr dept. Same response for 3 years.


Think D* will find out when that other HDDVR comes out(the one whose name we shall not speak otherwise it belongs in a different thread) and sees the migration of subscriber's that prefer to go with it,because it has DLB.:sure:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Jhon69 said:


> because it has DLB.:sure:


And PIP.


----------



## dennisj00

I think you'll see DLB and MRV working well before the T-unit is released.


----------



## dodge boy

dennisj00 said:


> I think you'll see DLB and MRV working well before the T-unit is released.


I hope you are right!!!


----------



## dodge boy

jaybertx said:


> Why talk about dual live buffers when we all know that the future is in QUAD LIVE BUFFERS!!! Two SWM connections into the back of an HR20 and POW!!!


More like BOOM, when your DVR explodes from overload... :lol:
or your head explodes because it actually works and gives you a "joygasm"... :lol:


----------



## Richierich

I know you will have "MRV" before the T-Unit comes out but I'm not so sure about the "DLB" unless you are Doug's Brother-In-Law and know something that alot of us don't know.


----------



## dennisj00

Doug's not related but we did go to NC State. There's been a lot of button pushing lately and I stayed in a HI express a couple of months ago.


----------



## Que

dennisj00 said:


> There's been a lot of button pushing lately and I stayed in a HI express a couple of months ago.


What kind of button pushing?? Please let us know.

How was your stay at HI?


----------



## Jhon69

dennisj00 said:


> I think you'll see DLB and MRV working well before the T-unit is released.


I believe that concerning DLB I'll believe it,if I ever see it!.


----------



## Richierich

I don't think we will ever see DLB on an HR2X DVR. 

Maybe on the New MPEG-4 DIRECTTIVO DVR coming out in 2010.


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> Maybe on the New MPEG-4 DIRECTTIVO DVR coming out in 2010.


You're right. We're going to see "something better" than DLB's on the HR2x's. /steve


----------



## dennisj00

Steve said:


> You're right. We're going to see "something better" than DLB's on the HR2x's. /steve


As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't INCLUDE DLB, it won't qualify as something better.


----------



## Jhon69

dennisj00 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't INCLUDE DLB, it won't qualify as something better.


I would have to agree.:sure:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't INCLUDE DLB, it won't qualify as something better.


Absolutly.

It has to contain some kind of DLBish component.

I don't care how it happens . I just want it to allow me to access either tuner and have them both buffering live TV, then I'm a happy camper. 

Mike


----------



## dennisj00

Actually DLB would be 'something better' . . . certainly something better than we have now!!

Just let me push the DOWN ARROW and switch between two live TV buffers -- it can't be that hard !!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

dennisj00 said:


> Actually DLB would be 'something better' . . . certainly something better than we have now!!
> 
> Just let me push the DOWN ARROW and switch between two live TV buffers -- it can't be that hard !!


You're right. What ever the "something better", the DLB component has to be a one button operation.

Otherwise it's just not better. 

Mike


----------



## carl6

MicroBeta said:


> Otherwise it's just not better.
> 
> Mike


Better is in the eye of the beholder. 

And that was my 6000th post.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

carl6 said:


> Better is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> And that was my 6000th post.


Fair enough.

Congrats.


----------



## DarinC

This week I discovered a new reason to want DLB (maybe the rest of you already knew this, but it's the first time I've encountered it). I set up a recording for the Oscars, and asked set it to record 15 minutes past the end time in case they went over. As I typically try to do, we watched delayed from the recording, to minimize commercials. They actually ended up going about 30 mins over. With my TiVo, I could have simply gone live, and used the buffer to catch what was missed. But on the HR21, since the tuner the Oscars was recording on wasn't considered the "active" tuner, it had no buffer. That time was lost.


----------



## dennisj00

That's why the 'workaround' doesn't work. It's caught me more than once when I've padded a recording -usually a sports event- and it goes over. Boom, you're hung and missed the last x minutes!


----------



## ATARI

carl6 said:


> Better is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> And that was my 6000th post.


That reminds me of one my favorite sayings "Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder".



And congrats on 6000.


----------



## Doug Brott

Yes, this is a situation in which the workaround doesn't work well.


----------



## Richierich

That is why I have Plenty of Storage Room and set up mine to at least go 30 minutes past but as in Golf Today with Tiger Woods I have it set to go 1 Hour past so I don't have to worry and that is for every day in case of a rain delay or a delay caused by extra holes as the Twosome did in front of Tiger's Debut on #1.

This also happens alot if you Record Nascar and there is a Rain Delay so I always Extend it One Hour and if it overlaps something else then So Be It.


----------



## Jhon69

DarinC said:


> This week I discovered a new reason to want DLB (maybe the rest of you already knew this, but it's the first time I've encountered it). I set up a recording for the Oscars, and asked set it to record 15 minutes past the end time in case they went over. As I typically try to do, we watched delayed from the recording, to minimize commercials. They actually ended up going about 30 mins over. With my TiVo, I could have simply gone live, and used the buffer to catch what was missed. But on the HR21, since the tuner the Oscars was recording on wasn't considered the "active" tuner, it had no buffer. That time was lost.


Excellent problem that would be solved with DLB !.:sure:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Jhon69 said:


> Excellent problem that would be solved with DLB !.:sure:


Or by "somethig better".


----------



## Sandy

I still want to watch a program live and channel surf on the other tuner during the commercials. I did this constantly with my Tivo. That is "tv my way". I miss DLB every time I am watching tv. I don't care if "my way" is not the way other people watch tv, everyone has their own preferred way, but why can't Directv allow DLB? None of the workarounds really work for what I like to do. Also, I used DLB for football games all the time. 

If there is no DLB available when my commitment is up, I will go elsewhere. Directv doesn't even offer locals in my DMA, Dish does. But the locals weren't enough to get me to switch to Dish. I have an antenna. But the combination of no locals and no DLB will do it. 

I would think that if DLB is so easy for Directv to do, it should be done. Why alienate some of your subscribers? It actually comes across as arrogant to me.......Now, now. We know what's the best way to watch tv, just do it our way. No need for DLB You're just doing it wrong...........kind of thing.

Sorry for the long post, but the longer I have the HR21-100 the more dissatisfied I become.

Sandy


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Sandy said:


> I still want to watch a program live and channel surf on the other tuner during the commercials.


I wholeheartedly agree. I had Tiger's return on one tuner on pause while I watched CNBC yesterday until there was 30 mins of buffer. That's just how I roll. I have no desire to record either. I just want to be able to pause until commercial, flip watch till commercial, pause and flip back, repeating over and over and over. But I guess we're relegated to a TiVo with cable, or a D-TiVo or the workaround. That sucks, IMHO.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

I was just looking at the wish list survey. It looks like they have done or are working on just about everything EXCEPT for DLB.

I think we have been had. I have held out hopes that they would add DLB, I even got a 2nd DTV DVR so I could get all of the HD channels on both my HD sets. FIOS is comming to my neighborhood in 6 months and if DTV does not provide DLB by then with the boxes I have now they can have them back.


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *217 8.85%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 396 16.15% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 164 6.69%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,579 64.40%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 96 3.92%*
Voters: *2452*

Replies 3,786	
Views 146,045

Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## chevyman601

there is DLB code in my hr21-100 i use it all the time it just don't work just like the tivo. every day i watch the cbs 11:00pm news and record the nbc 11:00pm news and a lot of times while watching david letterman (on cbs at 11:35pm)i look at the guide and see whats on jay leno (at this time its almost midnight) i decide i want to watch leno too, so i go to the guide to leno and push the record button and every time it records the whole thing even though 30 minutes has passed and i'm on cbs and not on nbc.
this would only work if the DVR is buffering both tuners, so the code is in my DVR for DLB just not set up as tivo, so maybe dtv is working on it in the background, and will release it whenever?


----------



## woodsptw

I appreciate the fact that Directv is constantly improving things. I'd love Dual Line Buffers and I actually left Time Warner after a host of issues - the last straw was the fact they had taken away DLBs at one point on the SA8300. But it was a large combination of things primarily tied to their excessive pricing, lack of NBC in HD in Dayton, constantly breaking HD-DVRs, etc. I would, however, not leave Directv over one missing feature. Although that's obviously a personal decision.

Now - with that said - "I want my DLB". It's especially required during NFL football season where I bounce between games and DLB let's me go back and forth and move around and catch up through the commercials.


----------



## Doug Brott

It's been a while, so I'm posting the different DLB workarounds again. There are ways to make use of dual live buffers, but it is neither automatic, nor perfect.

*Workaround #1 - toggle between Live TV buffer and recorded program*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #1*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and press {PAUSE}
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PAUSE} then {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x1EA and above ..


*Workaround #2 - toggle between recording buffer and tuner 2 (not buffered)*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #2*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Tune to Show 1 and press {*®*}
> Tune to Show 2 and watch Live TV
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> When finished, you can keep or delete the Show 1 as necessary
> Show 2 buffer will be gone once you toggle to Show 1
> You can channel surf on Tuner 2 while Show 1 continues to be buffered/recorded
> Show 1 continues to move forward in time if you do not press {PAUSE}
> 
> Keep in mind with Workaround #2 .. You can channel surf until your heart is content on Tuner 2. Each time you change to a new channel on Tuner 2, the buffer will be flushed. If you key in the channel number for Show 1 (the buffered/recorded program), then you will have full access to that program .. kinda like DLB, but only on the one tuner.
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x254 and above ..


*Workaround #3 - toggle between 2 recorded programs*


> *Dual Live Buffer Workaround #3*
> 
> *Setup*
> 
> Press {LIST} and play Show 1
> Press {LIST} and play Show 2
> *Switch between tuners*
> 
> Press {PREV}
> Show 1 and Show 2 can be currently recording - you do not have to wait until they are complete
> 
> *NOTE:* Works correctly in 0x290 and above ..


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I want "something better" then work arounds.

I'll keep waiting....like I have a choice. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> I want "something better" then work arounds.
> 
> I'll keep waiting....like I have a choice. :grin:


It's just about 9 months since that announcement, so if it doesn't happen soon, we'll have to induce! :lol: /steve


----------



## dreadlk

DC_SnDvl said:


> I was just looking at the wish list survey. It looks like they have done or are working on just about everything EXCEPT for DLB..


It tells me that it's either just not possible for the hardware to do it or there is some sort of patent issue involved, either way it's probably not coming.



DC_SnDvl said:


> I think we have been had. I have held out hopes that they would add DLB, I even got a 2nd DTV DVR so I could get all of the HD channels on both my HD sets. FIOS is comming to my neighborhood in 6 months and if DTV does not provide DLB by then with the boxes I have now they can have them back.


I don't think we have been had since they never said it had this feature. People on this forum have always been asking for it so there is an assumption that it would come.


----------



## Tom Robertson

dreadlk said:


> It tells me that it's either just not possible for the hardware to do it or there is some sort of patent issue involved, either way it's probably not coming.


There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality. If the hardware can record two items at once, the hardware can buffer two live streams.

There is absolutely no patent issue. DIRECTV has access to all the key patents from Replay and TiVo with their agreements. And DLB has never been found in patent searches anyway.


dreadlk said:


> I don't think we have been had since they never said it had this feature. People on this forum have always been asking for it so there is an assumption that it would come.


I concur. DLB has never been promised by DIRECTV, so it is hard to consider being had. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tom Robertson said:


> There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality. If the hardware can record two items at once, the hardware can buffer two live streams.
> 
> There is absolutely no patent issue. DIRECTV has access to all the key patents from Replay and TiVo with their agreements. And DLB has never been found in patent searches anyway.
> I concur. DLB has never been promised by DIRECTV, so it is hard to consider being had.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


While it's true it was never "promised" as a feature, back in the Sep '06 time frame, DirecTV was saying they were investigating implementation. 



Earl Bonovich said:


> I changed it to 50%-50%... because just over the last week, they started to discuss in more.... They are investigating the best method to implement a dual buffer scheme, that still fits into the model they have built for "their" DVR platform.
> 
> The odds could increase a lot over the next few weeks.
> 
> And you are correct... it is a software "CHOICE" they they made.
> 
> To Rick.... then you might as well order your Series 3 then, as they are not going to have dual buffers in two weeks (since reports of the Series 3 comming out around the 17th.... then again, it is also reported to be almost $800 as well)


Of course this isn't a promise. Nor is it reasonable to take it as such.

However, there was a point where DirecTV acknowledged that it was something we wanted and looked at giving it to us (even if it was only to the small percentage of subs who read the forums :grin: ).

IIRC it was over a year later that we got word that it was decided not to include it.

Yeah, there was not promise but at one time DirecTV created an *anticipation*&#8230;.(get it, *anticipation*, I slay me :lol: ya know you chuckled)

As enthusiastically as I argued for DBL I know it isn't coming and I'm ok with that&#8230;now. :grin:

It is interesting that the patent issue keeps coming up. That was shot down years ago (previous DLB thread).

It wasn't promised; it isn't coming but "something better" is. 

Mike


----------



## sunking

MicroBeta said:


> While it's true it was never "promised" as a feature, back in the Sep '06 time frame, DirecTV was saying they were investigating implementation.
> 
> Of course this isn't a promise. Nor is it reasonable to take it as such.
> 
> However, there was a point where DirecTV acknowledged that it was something we wanted and looked at giving it to us (even if it was only to the small percentage of subs who read the forums :grin: ).
> 
> IIRC it was over a year later that we got word that it was decided not to include it.
> 
> Yeah, there was not promise but at one time DirecTV created an *anticipation*&#8230;.(get it, *anticipation*, I slay me :lol: ya know you chuckled)
> 
> As enthusiastically as I argued for DBL I know it isn't coming and I'm ok with that&#8230;now. :grin:
> 
> It is interesting that the patent issue keeps coming up. That was shot down years ago (previous DLB thread).
> 
> It wasn't promised; it isn't coming but "something better" is.
> 
> Mike


Oh don't you worry. It's still coming. But first they have to work on that popup window that comes up when the guide can't be updated past the end of the Mayan calendar. Gotta have your priorities.


----------



## Flyrx7

sunking said:


> Oh don't you worry. It's still coming. But first they have to work on that popup window that comes up when the guide can't be updated past the end of the Mayan calendar. Gotta have your priorities.


3 years, 287 days, 12 hours and 25 minutes, but who's counting?
I'm trying to figure what will come first; the end of the world or DLB?


----------



## Doug Brott

Flyrx7 said:


> 3 years, 287 days, 12 hours and 25 minutes, but who's counting?
> I'm trying to figure what will come first; the end of the world or DLB?


That's funny .. Although the HR2x came out in August 2006, so I'll assume you're using the R15 as a reference point


----------



## sunking

Doug Brott said:


> That's funny .. Although the HR2x came out in August 2006, so I'll assume you're using the R15 as a reference point


I believe he's referencing the end of the world, not how long he's been disapointed.

http://www.disastercountdown.com/event/mayan/


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> That's funny .. Although the HR2x came out in August 2006, so I'll assume you're using the R15 as a reference point


Methinks he is counting down to the end of the mayan world, December 21, 2012.

Tho I think the mayan world ended a long time ago...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Only on a site such as this, with such learned men and women as yourselves, could we discuss Mayan culture _vis-a-vis_ the arrival of dual buffering on DIRECTV-branded DVRs.

Personally I had dual buffers on my DIRECTV-branded DVR and I got rid of that DVR because I never used it.



Spoiler



It was the DIRECTV DVR R10. Gotcha.


----------



## Doug Brott

Oops .. But yeah, I'm pretty sure the Mayan world is already done ..


----------



## Flyrx7

The referrence was to what some believe will be the end of of The world, not the end of the Mayan world, as noted by the Mayan calender. Actually, I believe it's just the end of the 5th age of the Mayan calender, which is also where they decided to quit the calender. Perhaps they were running out of swimsuit models. 

At any rate, I don't think I'll be holding my breathe for either event, but I'm definetely having a party on Dec 20th, 2012, so I'll likely be hung over for the end of the world 

Frank


----------



## Lord Vader

Crap! Right before Christmas, too! What am I gonna do with all that fruitcake?!?


----------



## ATARI

Which will come first?

1) The end of the Mayan calendar
2) The end of Unix time
3) Duke Nukem Forever
4) DLB on the HR2x


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> Which will come first?
> 
> 1) The end of the Mayan calendar
> 2) The end of Unix time
> 3) Duke Nukem Forever
> 4) DLB on the HR2x


5) Y3K?


----------



## DC_SnDvl

Something better was...still waiting...glad I did not hold my breath. ;-)



Tom Robertson said:


> There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality. If the hardware can record two items at once, the hardware can buffer two live streams.
> 
> DLB has never been promised by DIRECTV, so it is hard to consider being had.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Jhon69

Lord Vader said:


> Crap! Right before Christmas, too! What am I gonna do with all that fruitcake?!?


:hair::rotfl::thats::grin:

Well you could feed it to all the aliens that are supposed to show up,they eat it and die.You will become the hero of the earth!.

Or they might be returning Mayans in that case they will cut our hearts out and sacrifice us to the sun god.:eek2:


----------



## James Long

Thread Topic: What are your thoughts on *Dual Live Buffers* ... not Mayans.


----------



## Jhon69

James Long said:


> Thread Topic: What are your thoughts on *Dual Live Buffers* ... not Mayans.


Think maybe the focus should be put on"something better than DLB" which has been confirmed is coming from DirecTV on the HR2xs and R22s?.Which simply means to me that DirecTV's HR2xs and R22s will have more than two live buffers.


----------



## sunking

James Long said:


> Thread Topic: What are your thoughts on *Dual Live Buffers* ... not Mayans.


Yah, we wouldn't want to dilute all the really useful and easily located information left to be discussed about DLB with something off topic. This thread would become unusable and pointless


----------



## dreadlk

!rolling Oh that's good, I almost coughed out my lunch:lol:

I know your pain brother:feelbette The unfortunate part is that D* still does not get it ::beatdeadhorse:
, D* still does not understand that best receiver is one that you don't even realize is there until you decide to press a button; at all other times you just watch TV and enjoy.

Instead D* keeps adding Pop-ups and invasive messages, Resets that occur during shows, and a receiver that take longer to start up than a 80 year man at a brothel. Directv keeps adding a whole lot of other stuff that just distracts from the simple pleasure of watching TV. That's why HR2X are hated by 8 out of 10 wives :lol:



sunking said:


> Oh don't you worry. It's still coming. But first they have to work on that popup window that comes up when the guide can't be updated past the end of the Mayan calendar. Gotta have your priorities.


----------



## dreadlk

Tom I have to respectfully disagree with you on that, the receiver being able to record two live streams is not a total indication, there's a whole lot more going on with DLB and it's pretty obvious at this point that if they where not encountering problems they would have done it already.



Tom Robertson said:


> There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality. If the hardware can record two items at once, the hardware can buffer two live streams.
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

dreadlk said:


> Tom I have to respectfully disagree with you on that, the receiver being able to record two live streams is not a total indication, there's a whole lot more going on with DLB and it's pretty obvious at this point that if they where not encountering problems they would have done it already.


That's the problem with "it's pretty obvious at this point" type statements.

I said "There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality" for a good reason. I guarantee the hardware can do DLB without any problem whatsoever.

Readers of the threads on DLB will recall that it was a DIRECTV decision to implement "something better than DLB". It was not the hardware nor patents forcing the decision. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## CJTE

Tom Robertson said:


> That's the problem with "it's pretty obvious at this point" type statements.
> 
> I said "There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality" for a good reason. I guarantee the hardware can do DLB without any problem whatsoever.
> 
> Readers of the threads on DLB will recall that it was a DIRECTV decision to implement "something better than DLB". It was not the hardware nor patents forcing the decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


But the problem is... They *haven't* implemented it yet.
Or if they have, they haven't given it to us... Only to select testers.

Agreed though, the Hardware is capable of DLB.


----------



## dreadlk

I have to agree with CJTE. While we all know that Tom is telling us the truth, it makes very little difference if the "Better Solution" is not in our hands. I am personaly 1.5 years into a 2 year contract and I may not be staying, so I would have love to have this "solution" so I can make a more informed decision. Everyday I see Dishnet adding new HD channels and as soon as they are up to the Level of Directv, so it's going to be a hard choice, especialy since they have a better DVR.



CJTE said:


> But the problem is... They *haven't* implemented it yet.
> Or if they have, they haven't given it to us... Only to select testers.
> 
> Agreed though, the Hardware is capable of DLB.


----------



## DarkSkies

Hi all ... I mostly lurk but I'm not hear everyday so I may have missed the answer, but what is the "something better" that is coming? Thanks.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

DarkSkies said:


> Hi all ... I mostly lurk but I'm not hear everyday so I may have missed the answer, but what is the "something better" that is coming? Thanks.


It's something better the DLB.
:lol:

Actually we don't know. There has been a lot of speculation.

The consensus is that is some feature that has (somewhere within it :grin: ) some DLBish kinda functionality.

IMHO, that would mean one button access to both tuners with buffers intact.

IOW, we don't know nuthin'. 

Mike


----------



## Richierich

Well, They are taking their sweet time getting this "Something Better Than DLB" and I ain't going to live that much longer so can we just get "Something Better Lite"!!!


----------



## BattleScott

Tom Robertson said:


> Readers of the threads on DLB will recall that it was a DIRECTV decision to implement "something better than DLB". It was not the hardware nor patents forcing the decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Just to clarify, the "something better is coming" promise was issued much later as an attempt to pacifiy to the cries over no DLB, it is not a justification for why it was not implimented from the beginning.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

MicroBeta said:


> IMHO, that would mean one button access to both tuners with buffers intact.


With all due respect, Mike, how can that be "better?" That's what TiVo has now. Hit the down arrow, hit the live TV button and you have one button access to the other tuner. I just wish they would implement it so I could not have such a hard time deciding. It _CAN'T_ be that difficult.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

BattleScott said:


> Just to clarify, the "something better is coming" promise was issued much later as an attempt to pacifiy to the cries over no DLB, it is not a justification for why it was not implimented from the beginning.


I don't think that's a fair characterization unless you can say for certain what the quoted person was thinking.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tallgntlmn said:


> With all due respect, Mike, how can that be "better?" That's what TiVo has now. Hit the down arrow, hit the live TV button and you have one button access to the other tuner. I just wish they would implement it so I could not have such a hard time deciding. It _CAN'T_ be that difficult.


True but if it takes more then one button press, it wouldn't be "something better".

One might argue that if there is a group of functions within the "something better" feature and that one allowed access to both tuners, even with more then one button press, that might be better...I suppose.

However, in the previous discussions we kinda decided in order to meet the criteria for both DLB and "something better", it had to be one button press.

Keep in mind that this is only our musings and not anything official. Take from it what you will.

Mike


----------



## Tallgntlmn

MicroBeta said:


> Keep in mind that this is only our musings and not anything official. Take from it what you will.


Oh no doubt. I was simply ribbing you over that one man. 

I have a hard time trying to figure out what could be "better" than how DLB is on my D-TiVo. Well, better would be a longer than 30 minute buffer. Maybe my imagination is not good enough for this one. LOL!


----------



## Flyrx7

Search function must be broken. Do a search for "something better" and nothing comes up. Unless it works like a crystal ball, then it's working fine.

It was posted nearly 11 months ago that something better was coming. At this point I think it's safer to say Haley's comet is coming......and probably sooner too. Honestly, if that proclamation wasn't intended as a pacification then I don't know what is.

What we need here is a small leak of internal information to pacify us for another year, or at least until that "other" DVR comes out.

On a side note, I only have 2 days left on my commitment, and as Carl Spackler would say, "so I got that going for me".


----------



## BattleScott

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't think that's a fair characterization unless you can say for certain what the quoted person was thinking.


The quoted person was attempting to side-step a question posed to them by someone (at one of the CES shows I believe) about the status of the DLB functionality, arguably, the single most requested feature not present in the DirecTV DVRs.
I think the "characterization" is fair as it is based on the fact that they were asked a straight forward question about DLB and deflected it with a promise of "something better is coming".

I attempted a quick search to find the original posting of the comment, but no joy.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Tallgntlmn said:


> Oh no doubt. I was simply ribbing you over that one man.
> 
> I have a hard time trying to figure out what could be "better" than how DLB is on my D-TiVo. Well, better would be a longer than 30 minute buffer. Maybe my imagination is not good enough for this one. LOL!


Oh yeah. The theories make for an interesting read. 

What's better is in the Mind of the beholder. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Jhon69

BattleScott said:


> The quoted person was attempting to side-step a question posed to them by someone (at one of the CES shows I believe) about the status of the DLB functionality, arguably, the single most requested feature not present in the DirecTV DVRs.
> I think the "characterization" is fair as it is based on the fact that they were asked a straight forward question about DLB and deflected it with a promise of "something better is coming".
> 
> I attempted a quick search to find the original posting of the comment, but no joy.


That's probably because what I remember"the comment" was made in the DBSTALK Chat Room.


----------



## puffnstuff

Jhon69 said:


> That's probably because what I remember"the comment" was made in the DBSTALK Chat Room.


It was . I just want to know when it is going to get here (how long has it been almost a year now). But like I said before , it was said just to shut us up and should be put into the vaporware category.


----------



## Que

Jhon69 said:


> That's probably because what I remember"the comment" was made in the DBSTALK Chat Room.


Yeah, no one keep the chat log. Drew2k posted this: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1580174#post1580174



> Last night in an interactive chat session hosted by DBSTalk DIRECTV's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual fielded questions from forum members. This was an unplanned bonus Q&A with Mr. Pontual, as most of the forum members who were in the chat rooms were there for the night's Cutting Edge software release disucssion and to hear an announcement from the moderators regarding C.E. forum operation.
> 
> During the session with Mr. Pontual, one question was about DLB, to which Mr. Pontual responded that it could be done but** DIRECTV has something better coming.
> 
> I think inkahauts idea of PIP/POP is a good one - I can't think of what other feature would appease those looking to buffer two live streams and switch between them.
> 
> **EDIT: Adding exact quote from chat. What Mr. Pontual said, verbatim: "DLB could be done, we have something better coming.". The "but" above was me paraphrasing, but I don't want that to imply that DLB will NOT be delivered. For all I know the comma could be used to indicate "but" or "and"...


----------



## dreadlk

Ok Tom I thought about this last night and I have a question for you 
Since the receiver only has two sat tuners, when they do DLB what would happen when a person is recording a show?

Most of us do the following: We have the recorder set to catch eg. "Survivor" or "Lost" then we watch other stuff so we can go back later and watch the shows while skipping out the commercials. So during that period when the prime time show is being recorded we are searching through channels all over the place, how is DLB going to work, if one Tuner is already locked onto a signal and recording?

That would mean that DLB would only work if nothing was being recorded OR at least one of the channels in the Live Buffer was coming from the same Sat that the recording was being done from.

BUT I think I know what that "better than DLB" statement meant. Now it makes sense to me why D* is moving people over to SWM  Whats the new term going to be MLB? 



Tom Robertson said:


> That's the problem with "it's pretty obvious at this point" type statements.
> 
> I said "There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality" for a good reason. I guarantee the hardware can do DLB without any problem whatsoever.
> 
> Readers of the threads on DLB will recall that it was a DIRECTV decision to implement "something better than DLB". It was not the hardware nor patents forcing the decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## sunking

dreadlk said:


> Ok Tom I thought about this last night and I have a question for you
> Since the receiver only has two sat tuners, when they do DLB what would happen when a person is recording a show?


In a nutshell, with DLB you have 2 tuners that always behave in 1 of 2 states. It's either recording a show, or buffering a show. The DLB button (up arrow in tivo) simply switches the video output and control to other tuner. If you are recording a show you can't change channels on a tuner (at least without it asking you first). So this means if you are recording on 1 and decide to channel surf you are really just surfing on 1 tuner. The beauty of this is that once you get used to it you find yourself recording a lot less shows if you are watching it live because if you keep the tuner on 1 channel the standard buffer is more than enough to catch anything you may have missed while surfing. ie: I always keep a tuner on the yankee game, check the score periodically and go back to see anything that changed the score. No need to record it, and if i do mess up and blow the buffer away its not that big a real deal to me.

The nice thing about this is DLB button will always swap tuners, so its quick and easy to get back to the show you are recording. Where as the 'prev' button will get you back to the previous channel you were watching. This might be the other tuner or it might not, depending on sequence of what you are doing.


----------



## dreadlk

Thanks for the info, I have never owned a Dishnet DVR but from your description I am not all that impressed with the way it handles DLB, in a Nutshell it basically has no DLB feature when your recording something! If this two tuner (analog) limiting factor is the case than that explains why directv did not even bother to release DLB. I still believe that my SWM/MLB theory is right on the Money, just waiting for TOM to wade in :yesman:



sunking said:


> In a nutshell, with DLB you have 2 tuners that always behave in 1 of 2 states. It's either recording a show, or buffering a show. The DLB button (up arrow in tivo) simply switches the video output and control to other tuner. If you are recording a show you can't change channels on a tuner (at least without it asking you first). So this means if you are recording on 1 and decide to channel surf you are really just surfing on 1 tuner. The beauty of this is that once you get used to it you find yourself recording a lot less shows if you are watching it live because if you keep the tuner on 1 channel the standard buffer is more than enough to catch anything you may have missed while surfing. ie: I always keep a tuner on the yankee game, check the score periodically and go back to see anything that changed the score. No need to record it, and if i do mess up and blow the buffer away its not that big a real deal to me.
> 
> The nice thing about this is DLB button will always swap tuners, so its quick and easy to get back to the show you are recording. Where as the 'prev' button will get you back to the previous channel you were watching. This might be the other tuner or it might not, depending on sequence of what you are doing.


----------



## sunking

dreadlk said:


> Thanks for the info, I have never owned a Dishnet DVR but from your description I am not all that impressed with the way it handles DLB, in a Nutshell it basically has no DLB feature when your recording something! If this two tuner (analog) limiting factor is the case than that explains why directv did not even bother to release DLB. I still believe that my SWM/MLB theory is right on the Money, just waiting for TOM to wade in :yesman:


You are correct. However you can't grow a 3rd tuner to get you what you'd like to do  Given the hardware what you wan't is simply not possible.

One other thing, the satellite doesn't matter. The receiver doesn't record/view a whole satellite stream, just a particular channel, so which sat its coming from makes no matter (I'm sure there's a better explanation of this, but you get my drift I think).


----------



## Steve

dreadlk said:


> Thanks for the info, I have never owned a Dishnet DVR but from your description I am not all that impressed with the way it handles DLB, in a Nutshell it basically has no DLB feature when your recording something! [...]





sunking said:


> You are correct. However you can't grow a 3rd tuner to get you what you'd like to do  Given the hardware what you wan't is simply not possible.


Exactly. Since the HR2x can currently only record (and therefore buffer) a combination of 2 simultaneous SAT/OTA streams, if DLB's are implemented, you will only be able to toggle between two live buffers. This is how DLB's on the DirecTiVo's currently work. If one or more channels is being recorded, then that channel's live buffer is "locked in" to that channel, until that tuner is available for a channel change.

Since the DISH VIP boxes that are also connected OTA can simultaneously record a total of 2 SAT channels and 1 OTA channel, I guess it's _theoretically_ possible for Dish VIP's that are also connected OTA to switch between three live buffers (TLB capability), but I am not a Dish subscriber, so I can't tell you if that's the case. It's possible, e.g., that while the VIP's can simultaneously record three streams to disk, they can only manage buffering (and trickplay of) two live buffers at at time. /steve


----------



## Doug Brott

Dual Live Buffers == toggling between that which is Live on each of the two tuners.


----------



## itzme

Doug Brott said:


> Dual Live Buffers == toggling between that which is Live on each of the two tuners.


..., with the constant ability to use trickplay on both.

That's what really makes DLB so great! I really miss it ):


----------



## rustynails

itzme said:


> ..., with the constant ability to use trickplay on both.
> 
> That's what really makes DLB so great! I really miss it ):


Me too. I had it with Dish and it was great. I don't foresee Directv ever having DLB unless Tivo comes out with a unit that does.


----------



## raott

Tom Robertson said:


> That's the problem with "it's pretty obvious at this point" type statements.
> 
> I said "There is absolutely no reason why the hardware can't provide DLB functionality" for a good reason. I guarantee the hardware can do DLB without any problem whatsoever.
> 
> Readers of the threads on DLB will recall that it was a DIRECTV decision to implement "something better than DLB". It was not the hardware nor patents forcing the decision.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I seriously doubt that the "something better" was anywhere in the thoughts of D* when the HR20 was designed.


----------



## puffnstuff

raott said:


> I seriously doubt that the "something better" was anywhere in the thoughts of D* when the HR20 was designed.


I seriously doubt that it exist at all .


----------



## dreadlk

It probably does exist and I have hinted to what it probably is.



puffnstuff said:


> I seriously doubt that it exist at all .


----------



## Drew2k

I still have faith.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Drew2k said:


> I still have faith.


Finally, someone else who's willing to have a little faith and have some hope. 

Something's coming. Will it be better, I hope so. However, something is coming. 

Mike


----------



## rustynails

Some people are just eternal optimists! Give It up folks. It ain't gonna happen!


----------



## puffnstuff

dreadlk said:


> It probably does exist and I have hinted to what it probably is.


Ok please enlighten me , I looked through your post and didn't see anything you hinted at .


----------



## dreadlk

Using SWM they can most likely make each tuner see more than One SWM Data Channel at a time. So if my assumption is true it will be able to buffer/Record more than one TV channel from each tuner.

"Better than DLB" might mean that you have MLB (Multiple Live Buffers) which might only be limited by the receivers CPU/HD speed or how many receivers are hooked up to the SWM.



puffnstuff said:


> Ok please enlighten me , I looked through your post and didn't see anything you hinted at .


----------



## Doug Brott

dreadlk said:


> Using SWM they can most likely make each tuner see more than One SWM Data Channel at a time. So if my assumption is true it will be able to buffer/Record more than one TV channel from each tuner.
> 
> "Better than DLB" might mean that you have MLB (Multiple Live Buffers) which might only be limited by the receivers CPU/HD speed or how many receivers are hooked up to the SWM.


If this were true, then don't you think you could record 2 from SAT and one or two from OTA at the same time?


----------



## Que

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *219 8.81%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 407 16.37% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 165 6.63%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,597 64.21%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 99 3.98%*
Voters: *2487*

Replies 3,847	
Views 150,872

Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


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## TBlazer07

I've heard from secret DirecTV sources that DLB has been officially cancelled because they have dedicated the "UP ARROW" to Quicktune which is what the D* CTO meant was "something even better."

4/1/09 :hurah:


Drew2k said:


> I still have faith.


----------



## ToddinVA

Que said:


> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *219 8.81%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 407 16.37% *
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 165 6.63%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,597 64.21%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 99 3.98%*
> Voters: *2487*
> 
> Replies 3,847
> Views 150,872
> 
> Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
> 
> A must have! *2836 77.66%*
> Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
> Voters: 3652.
> 
> Replies 2,965
> *Views 146,826*


How about adding the 4% that won't even consider an HR2x unit without DLB...


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## MX727

ToddinVA said:


> How about adding the 4% that won't even consider an HR2x unit without DLB...


????

I think you are confusing the two sets of numbers. The bottom set is from the original poll. It isn't a condensing of the five choices on the current poll into the three choices of the old poll.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

TBlazer07 said:


> I've heard from secret DirecTV sources that DLB has been officially cancelled because they have dedicated the "UP ARROW" to Quicktune which is what the D* CTO meant was "something even better."
> 
> 4/1/09 :hurah:


And thus an unconfirmed rumor.

IMHO, not even a good one.

I don't believe it makes sense but maybe that's just me. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Jhon69

Until DirecTV assigns a feature to the"down arrow" which is how it is on my HR10-250 I will never believe it has been "cancelled" but if DirecTV does and it's some other function then I will have to agree.


----------



## jahgreen

MicroBeta said:


> And thus an unconfirmed rumor.
> 
> IMHO, not even a good one.
> 
> I don't believe it makes sense but maybe that's just me. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Note the date on the post with the "unconfirmed rumor."


----------



## looter

MicroBeta said:


> And thus an unconfirmed rumor.
> 
> IMHO, not even a good one.
> 
> I don't believe it makes sense but maybe that's just me. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Duh?


----------



## ToddinVA

MX727 said:


> ????
> 
> I think you are confusing the two sets of numbers. The bottom set is from the original poll. It isn't a condensing of the five choices on the current poll into the three choices of the old poll.


Um, you have highlighted 2 numbers in red, but a more accurate comparison to the old 77% number is the 64% PLUS the nearly 4% figure. At first glance, people wouldn't be reading it accurately.


----------



## TBlazer07

Geez & Crackers! ... what more could I have to to show it was a joke?? Not only did I put the 4/1 date on the bottom but I put a laughing face right next to it. Gotta lighten up just a tiny bit! 



MicroBeta said:


> And thus an unconfirmed rumor.
> 
> IMHO, not even a good one.
> 
> I don't believe it makes sense but maybe that's just me. :grin:
> 
> Mike


----------



## TBlazer07

And that laughing guy right next to it!


jahgreen said:


> Note the date on the post with the "unconfirmed rumor."


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I guess I should have been a little funnier/sarcastic. 

Since I removed all the extra lines one would realize I saw the date and smiley. 

Oh well, ya can't win 'em all. :grin:

Mike


----------



## TBlazer07

Considering your current "logo" I can feel your pain. :lol:


MicroBeta said:


> Oh well, ya can't win 'em all. :grin:
> 
> Mike


----------



## dreadlk

You probably could record 2 from Sat and one or two from OTA but we both know that they are not even going to attempt that because, one; the system is not reliable enough to make that step and number two they don't want to make the providers feel that the HR2x is just a huge recording box.

Contrary to what some have posted, there is nothing better than DLB unless of course it involves more than two buffers! 
By using the SWM we know they can access two or more data streams on a single tuner so at the absolute minimum if they use both Tuners they can access four data streams on the SWM. So now it comes down to the whether the hardware can handle buffering 4 channels.



Doug Brott said:


> If this were true, then don't you think you could record 2 from SAT and one or two from OTA at the same time?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

TBlazer07 said:


> Considering your current "logo" I can feel your pain. :lol:


We'll see....We'll see...:grin:


----------



## Tallgntlmn

Sure could have used DLB last night. Idol went over time by more than the 2 minutes I give it. It would have been nice if I could have just flipped to that tuner and gotten the last performance. 

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the tuner that did the recording stayed on that channel in the background. And if so, I should have been able to hit record on Fringe and seen the last performance on Idol. I tried but it didn't work. I was upset for a bit but it's not like the guy in the last spot ever goes home the following night.


----------



## dreadlk

Live TV is something that is unpredictable so there is no way we can blame D*. Maybe in the future some sort of instant recording extension command could be sent in realtime by the station, it's not very hard for them to encode that into the video.



Tallgntlmn said:


> Sure could have used DLB last night. Idol went over time by more than the 2 minutes I give it. It would have been nice if I could have just flipped to that tuner and gotten the last performance.
> 
> I thought, and I could be wrong, that the tuner that did the recording stayed on that channel in the background. And if so, I should have been able to hit record on Fringe and seen the last performance on Idol. I tried but it didn't work. I was upset for a bit but it's not like the guy in the last spot ever goes home the following night.


----------



## Tallgntlmn

dreadlk said:


> Live TV is something that is unpredictable so there is no way we can blame D*.


Oh, not blaming D* for what happened. It's completely Fox's doing. But when I had the D-TiVo, I could flip to that tuner that was still on Fox and go back half an hour and see the end. DLB let me do that. Now I can't because D* chooses not to put DLB in the HR2x. That I can blame on D*.


----------



## Que

Tallgntlmn said:


> Oh, not blaming D* for what happened. It's completely Fox's doing. But when I had the D-TiVo, I could flip to that tuner that was still on Fox and go back half an hour and see the end. DLB let me do that. Now I can't because D* chooses not to put DLB in the HR2x. That I can blame on D*.


To this day I am sure "something better then DLB" is still coming.....In the end it will really has to.


----------



## ATARI

Que said:


> To this day I am sure "something better then DLB" is still coming.....In the end it will really has to.


Hope springs eternal.

(and it is Spring afterall)


----------



## itzme

Uhm, I'm pretty sure this thread will soon be closed


----------



## James Long

itzme said:


> Uhm, I'm pretty sure this thread will soon be closed


Only when DLB is in a national release. Then there will be a complaints about DLB not working right thread.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes... this thread will remain open until DLB reaches national release. For any other questions, please head to the Cutting Edge forum.


----------



## kanderna

BoltJames? Where are you BoltJames?


----------



## inkahauts

kanderna said:


> BoltJames? Where are you BoltJames?


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

And they said it wasn't possible..


----------



## Richierich

BoltJames is in hiding and will be for a while. I even thought it would NEVER happen so I guess you should NEVER SAY NEVER!!! :lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Lord Vader

kanderna said:


> BoltJames? Where are you BoltJames?


Stuffing himself with crow, no doubt.


----------



## Flyrx7

Unreal. It's been just more than 2 years without DLB for me, I just now finished my commitment. Good thing it finally showed up, this thread was getting way past stale and I was seriously thinking of alternatives. 
Kudos to Directv for finally getting this to public beta! I guess good things come to those who wait (and wait, and wait). 
I am sooo looking forward to this thread going away! (as many others are too, I'm sure  )

Frank


----------



## armophob

I guess all the" DLB vs MRV" threads can be destroyed as well. That should free up a huge amount of server space.


----------



## DC_SnDvl

What am I going to complain about now?

only a short time until we have MVR and DLB.

They did not have a choice if they want to keep up with Verizon.


----------



## ToddinVA

Fantastic news!


----------



## Que

So where is BJ?? Someone needs to make me a NEW Avatar, please. BJ made this one. I now need one doing the happy dance hold a DVR or something like that! :lol:


----------



## Que

Flyrx7 said:


> Unreal. It's been just more than 2 years without DLB for me, I just now finished my commitment. Good thing it finally showed up, this thread was getting way past stale and I was seriously thinking of alternatives.
> Kudos to Directv for finally getting this to public beta! I guess good things come to those who wait (and wait, and wait).
> I am sooo looking forward to this thread going away! (as many others are too, I'm sure  )
> 
> Frank


Almost a 3 years wait here... Glad it almost here!! What took them so long !

The plus line(+) DVR was only DVR WITHOUT DLB on the market. Now it is getting it!


----------



## dave29

Flyrx7 said:


> Unreal. It's been just more than 2 years without DLB for me, I just now finished my commitment. Good thing it finally showed up, this thread was getting way past stale and I was seriously thinking of alternatives.
> Kudos to Directv for finally getting this to public beta! I guess good things come to those who wait (and wait, and wait).
> I am sooo looking forward to this thread going away! (as many others are too, I'm sure  )
> 
> Frank


Shouldn't this be discussed in the CE forum?


----------



## Que

Not that close to the 1st of the month...but ONE LAST TIME!!!

DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *221 8.80%*
I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 409 16.28% *
I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 167 6.65%*
I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,613 64.21%*
Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 102 4.06%*
Voters: *2512*

Replies 3,883	
Views 156,490

Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

A must have! *2836 77.66%*
Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
Voters: 3652.

Replies 2,965
*Views 146,826*


----------



## RobertE

Standing by to drive a wooden stake into the heart of this thread. Silver bullets & holy water standing by just in case.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> Standing by to drive a wooden stake into the heart of this thread. Silver bullets & holy water standing by just in case.


Many have been waiting for that vampire to be put to rest for good. 

It sucked the blood out of many posters... :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks Please lay off BoltJames .. I'm not interested in looking up the post, but he long ago changed his story which is probably why he hasn't posted in so long.

It is true that DLB is under development and will be available in a future release. Beyond that, there is not much to say in this thread.


----------



## Sixto

all we should care about is that DirecTV had the vision and resources to address a feature that was much desired.

and now those same resources can tweak, release, and move on to coding the next great thing(s).

a happy day (and it's also 80° and sunny on the east coast!).


----------



## GrumpyBear

BoltJames was vocal, until he understood the difference between the workaround and true DLB, once he got a grasp of it, he did change is mind. 
There are SEVERAL other people in this thread who were both more vocal, and putting this thread down, as a waste of time, and did it for a longer time than BoltJames.


----------



## ToddinVA

Que said:


> Not that close to the 1st of the month...but ONE LAST TIME!!!
> 
> DLB's are not an important feature to me, based on my use of the HR2x. *221 8.80%*
> I might use DLB's if implemented, but I can live without them. * 409 16.28% *
> I would prefer DLB's as implemented on the HR10, but the current work-around is OK. * 167 6.65%*
> I want DLB's as implemented on the HR10. The current work-around is inadequate. * 1,613 64.21%*
> Until DLB's are added, I will not get a DVR+ unit. * 102 4.06%*
> Voters: *2512*
> 
> Replies 3,883
> Views 156,490
> 
> Old DLB stats: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
> 
> A must have! *2836 77.66%*
> Don't really care about it. 179 4.90%
> Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 637 17.44%
> Voters: 3652.
> 
> Replies 2,965
> *Views 146,826*


Again, the appropriate current comparison number would be* 68.27%.*


----------



## RobertE

Not a mod, but remember this thread is to discuss a feature not a user or group of users.

:backtotop


----------



## raott

GrumpyBear said:


> There are SEVERAL other people in this thread who were both more vocal, and putting this thread down, as a waste of time, and did it for a longer time than BoltJames.


See for example the handful of posters using the "beating the dead horse" icon in this thread.

DLB is a prime example of why vocal, constructive criticism is a must on a site like this.


----------



## LarryFlowers

Perhaps it is time to close this thread and start a new one.. "Coming Soon... DLB". so we don't have to keep rehashing the things in this thread.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

AH HA!! So thats what Earls been working on all this time! No wonder no one has told us what he really does at D*!  :lol: 

So, MRV, DLB, and maybe next PIP.


----------



## James Long

Que said:



> So where is BJ?? Someone needs to make me a NEW Avatar, please. BJ made this one. I now need one doing the happy dance hold a DVR or something like that! :lol:


Here you go ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Folks .. I'm gonna go ahead and close this thread .. DLB is officially in development and that's really all we can talk about at this point. Look for it in a future release.

Thank you everyone for your contribution to this thread and the ones that preceded it. Enjoy!


----------

