# DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo (Official Q3 2010 Thread)



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, there's precious little to say about the upcoming DIRECTV TiVo-based device that hasn't already been said, but here's the thread for you to say it.

Ground Rules:

This is not a free-for-all. Rudeness will not be tolerated.

If you harp on a particular point to the exclusion of others, your posts may be deleted.

Synopsis of common arguments: (in other words, this ground's already been trodden, do we have to go there again?)


Many people like the TiVo interface, especially the list guide. 
Many people are equally fond of the DIRECTV interface. 
Many people think that TiVos are easier for them to use.
Many people think that DIRECTV DVRs are easier for them to use.
Standalone TiVo devices have many features that are appealing to people. 
No guarantee has been made that any feature from a standalone TiVo will make it to the DIRECTV TiVo. 
The new device will run on DIRECTV hardware, although we don't know how that will work (we have some ideas). 
TiVo, Inc. will develop the software for the device and seems to be solely responsible for the user experience.

Further, we've learned that the new TiVo for DIRECTV will *not* have the upgraded user experience seen in the TiVo Premiere, and since the DIRECTV HR24-500 DVR has been released, there has been some question as to what DIRECTV platform will underpin the new TiVo.


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## Stuart Sweet

...and, commence anticipating!


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## jdspencer

Possible rhetorical question.
Will this unit support SWM and thus MRV?

Personally, I'd have a problem going back to the TiVo experience.


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## Stuart Sweet

I would think SWM would have to be supported. As for MRV, I'm not sure.


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## naijai

Might be hard to support mrv since the tivo & dns software aren't similar but that could be the cause of the delay making them work together so customer can have mixed equipment in their home and still have all the services


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## joshjr

I dont see how they could release a HD DVR that was not compatible with SWM and MRV at this point.


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## bonscott87

And to point out that the last official word on timeframe we have heard was the following:

Tivo CEO a couple months ago reported it would hopefully be out by the end of the year.

DirecTV a few weeks later said that they hope that Tivo will deliver a unit by end of 2010 or early 2011.

That is all we know.


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## KoRn

Vaporware. This thing is never coming. :nono2: Not a troll post. Just irritated on how it keeps getting "delayed".


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## bicker1

I wouldn't say that until they've missed an explicitly promised delivery date. This is not a trivial undertaking, and it is not the only thing either company is busy with.


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## bonscott87

bicker1 said:


> I wouldn't say that until they've missed an explicitly promised delivery date. This is not a trivial undertaking, and it is not the only thing either company is busy with.


Well, they have missed several delivery dates so far...


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## DogLover

bicker1 said:


> I wouldn't say that until they've missed an explicitly promised delivery date. This is not a trivial undertaking, and it is not the only thing either company is busy with.


Perhaps not "explicitly promised dates", but they have missed targeted estimated dates by so much that I do have to wonder if they will ever bring the box to market. (I also wonder if the box is finally released, whether they will sell enough to recoup their development costs.)


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## rayik

Long time tivo user with cable before coming to D*. (Still have box with lifetime subscription).

When I went back to D* I wanted the unreleased directv tivo and would have paid extra $ to get it.

Having used an HR23-700 and an old Samsung directv tivo for 1 1/2 years, I no longer care about the unreleased D* tivo. Functionally the HR23 pretty much does everything tivo does except for suggestions and the list guide. To me, it is not worth an extra monthly fee to get those features. Even if there is no monthly fee, I would not spend any $ to "upgrade" boxes to the new D* tivo.

To those looking forward to this unit, hopefully it will eventually be released and function as planned.


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## Mike Greer

I had hoped to someday go back to an MPEG4 version of my old HD DirecTivo DVRs… In fact the announcement that a new Tivo would be available was a big part of my decision to go back to DirecTV. That was how many years ago? After all this time I gave up and just spent a small fortune on HR24s to fix my biggest complaint about DirecTV…. The HR22s that I got stuck with. 

Now that I’ve invested in the HR24s Tivo would have to give me the boxes for free (assuming they’ll ever be released) and then they’d have to waive the monthly fees before I’ll go there. Hopefully Tivo will be smart enough to realize they missed the boat and not spend any more cash on them. Too bad really – I would have purchased at least 2 of them a couple years back…


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## Skyboss

Stuart Sweet said:


> As for MRV, I'm not sure.


That woudl be a deal breaker for me right there, and IMO kill TiVo on Directv.


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## bicker1

DogLover said:


> Perhaps not "explicitly promised dates"


That's the point. Until they explicitly promise a specific date, what they're saying is playing to a wide variety of audiences for a wide variety of reasons.



DogLover said:


> but they have missed targeted estimated dates by so much that I do have to wonder if they will ever bring the box to market. (I also wonder if the box is finally released, whether they will sell enough to recoup their development costs.)


Again, I wouldn't read much into the missed "targeted estimated dates". And with your parenthetical sentence, you hit on what I was referring to, above... part of what affects their schedule is when research indicates that it would be worthwhile ramping up production and actually selling the box. Myriad conditions could obstruct that.

I would love to hear some real hard info, from inside sources, about how development is progressing; that's something I could trust.


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## bonscott87

bicker1 said:


> That's the point. Until they explicitly promise a specific date, what they're saying is playing to a wide variety of audiences for a wide variety of reasons.
> 
> Again, I wouldn't read much into the missed "targeted estimated dates". And with your parenthetical sentence, you hit on what I was referring to, above... part of what affects their schedule is when research indicates that it would be worthwhile ramping up production and actually selling the box. Myriad conditions could obstruct that.


Well, when they explicitly tell their investors that it will be released end of 2009, I'd call that a pretty specific date. 
Then early 2010.
Then again 2nd half 2010.
And now late 2010/early 2011.

All told to investors and at each investor meeting it gets pushed back it seems.

So yes, they have given explicit dates to the investors, and you certainly don't want to steer them wrong.



> I would love to hear some real hard info, from inside sources, about how development is progressing; that's something I could trust.


Unfortunately none of us will ever get this info.


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## Doug Brott

KoRn said:


> Vaporware. This thing is never coming. :nono2: Not a troll post. Just irritated on how it keeps getting "delayed".


I'm fairly confident in late 2010 or early 2011 ..


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## Doug Brott

Skyboss said:


> That woudl be a deal breaker for me right there, and IMO kill TiVo on Directv.


My thoughts as well, but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened.


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## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> I would love to hear some real hard info, from inside sources, about how development is progressing; that's something I could trust.


Dates were missed .. any other way to look at it is embellishing the truth .. I consider myself a pretty good guesser


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## lee78221

bicker1 said:


> I would love to hear some real hard info, from inside sources, about how development is progressing; that's something I could trust.


If there is any I doubt you'll hear about it. Most, if not all of them would be under NDA.


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## Stuart Sweet

My suspicion is that you'd be disappointed with any info you would get. I'm convinced there will be a TiVo device at some point, but I'm not sure anyone but Syzygy will want it... Maybe not even him


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## balboadave

I can't tell if this applies to the DirecTV build and DECA (their version of MoCA) or not, or not, but at least TiVo reveals they're working on MoCA.

TiVo's Crafting a Whole-Home DVR



> TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO) has confirmed it's developing a new client box for a whole-home DVR for MSOs, with Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) being one of the high-speed home networking technologies it's considering.


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## Doug Brott

balboadave said:


> I can't tell if this applies to the DirecTV build and DECA (their version of MoCA) or not, or not, but at least TiVo reveals they're working on MoCA.
> 
> TiVo's Crafting a Whole-Home DVR


MoCA is just the networking component .. DIRECTV is part of the RVU alliance which has client/server functionality for remote connections (CES 2010). I wonder if TiVo is going to be using RVU, using a competing technology or rolling their own.


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## Brennok

I don't think TiVo would choose RVU only because I believe they want to control their own UI and if I remember correctly with RVU you have to use the UI of the other device.


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## hdtvfan0001

Brennok said:


> I don't think TiVo would choose RVU only because I believe they want to control their own UI and if I remember correctly with RVU you have to use the UI of the other device.


Not necessarily....

Tivo could adapt their own version of the RVU standard....similar to how DirecTV launched DECA.


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## Stuart Sweet

At this point what we're not hearing from TiVo is more interesting than what we are hearing.


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## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point what we're not hearing from TiVo is more interesting than what we are hearing.


Well...
Since I'll be at CES again in January...anyone want to take the over/under on them announcing and showing anything there?


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## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well...
> Since I'll be at CES again in January...anyone want to take the over/under on them announcing and showing anything there?


What's the over/under on TiVo still being an independent company in January?


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## hdtvfan0001

ATARI said:


> What's the over/under on TiVo still being an independent company in January?


Good point.


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## R8ders2K

I just want to know when D* will start using the ReplayTV technology they purchased back in 2007 to recognize existing ReplayTVs on one's home network...


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## sigma1914

R8ders2K said:


> I just want to know when D* will start using the ReplayTV technology they purchased back in 2007 to recognize existing ReplayTVs on one's home network...


Never.


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## Stuart Sweet

Yeah I tend to agree with that. It was much more likely a purchase of intellectual property, intended to stave off lawsuits.


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## Doug Brott

I'd agree with Never as well. I don't think anyone at any level ever thought the Replay purchase had anything to do with actual implementation.


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## R8ders2K

Here's some food for thought...

When I run DVArchive on my Mac, I look at the Messages, I see the following...

07/17 19:09:48 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
07/17 19:09:48 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.xxx -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.xxx:80
07/17 19:11:03 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
07/17 19:11:03 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.yyy -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.yyy:80
07/17 19:12:18 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
07/17 19:12:18 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.zzz -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.zzz:80

DVR 10.0.1.xxx & zzz are my assigned IPs for the HR20 & HR23 and DVR 10.0.1.yyy is for the H21. 

Be curious to see what would be needed...


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## dod1450

Would it help if I drive to Alviso, Ca and pick one up?


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## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I'd agree with Never as well.


But those Replay fans want it Thursday....


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## Doug Brott

R8ders2K said:


> Here's some food for thought...
> 
> When I run DVArchive on my Mac, I look at the Messages, I see the following...
> 
> 07/17 19:09:48 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
> 07/17 19:09:48 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.xxx -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.xxx:80
> 07/17 19:11:03 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
> 07/17 19:11:03 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.yyy -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.yyy:80
> 07/17 19:12:18 ERROR: REPLAY_DEVICE:: Unable to fetch details for DVR -- Operation timed out
> 07/17 19:12:18 ERROR: Error processing served request from DVR 10.0.1.zzz -- Unable to fetch DVR Details for 10.0.1.zzz:80
> 
> DVR 10.0.1.xxx & zzz are my assigned IPs for the HR20 & HR23 and DVR 10.0.1.yyy is for the H21.
> 
> Be curious to see what would be needed...


Sounds a whole lot like media share (DLNA) and nothing like the TiVo :scratchin


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## Doug Brott

dod1450 said:


> Would it help if I drive to Alviso, Ca and pick one up?


I used to drive right by their HQ frequently .. Haven't worked down that way in a long time, though.


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## jacmyoung

sigma1914 said:


> Never.


Or maybe already I am not talking about actually work with a Replay brand DVR, but implement some of the technology in a very limited way in the DirecTV DVRs. I have read the ReplayTV DVR patent and the description, the technology did not appear any less efficient than the TiVo's, and likely easy to implement.

Not saying they have used it, but having some elements of the ReplayTV invention worked into the DirecTV DVRs would not be a shocker to me.


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## hdtvfan0001

[email protected] said:


> Will this unit support SWM and thus MRV?


Not yet known.

In fact, not much is known period....info on the rumored and announced new HD Tivobox has been highly silent for a while now...the only info consisting of "its not going to be ready for a bit yet".


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## Mike Bertelson

[email protected] said:


> Will this unit support SWM and thus MRV?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not yet known.
> 
> In fact, not much is known period....info on the rumored and announced new HD Tivobox has been highly silent for a while now...the only info consisting of "its not going to be ready for a bit yet".


This is total supposition on my part but I would think it would need to have MRV/SWM support.

My theory goes like this...how could TiVo expect to sell any new service is it doesn't support MRV/SWiM? Other than a few (and let's face it, that would be very few compared to the total customer base) diehard TiVo fans who don't care about anything but the TiVo interface, I see people saying "with the DirecTV interface, I can watch anything from any DVR any where in the house, I'll take it".

They have to appeal to new customers, so I would suspect it would need to have all the basic features of the current receivers.

Hey, it's a theory...but I've been wrong before. :grin:

Mike


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## bonscott87

MicroBeta said:


> This is total supposition on my part but I would think it would need to have MRV/SWM support.


It certainly would have to support SWM since most newly installed Dishes have SWM built into the LNB. MRV not required and I have big doubts they will include it.



> My theory goes like this...how could TiVo expect to sell any new service is it doesn't support MRV/SWiM?


Because Tivo still thinks their poop doesn't stink. They've gone on for 10 yrs now of "build it and they will come" but they lose marketshare and subs every quarter and for some reason the Tivo executives still don't get that they need to change. Oh well.


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## Stuart Sweet

I'd agree that SWiM Support would have to be mandatory. As for MRV, it would be great if it did, but I could completely see them putting the device out there without it.


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## JBernardK

bonscott87 said:


> Because Tivo still thinks their poop doesn't stink. They've gone on for 10 yrs now of "build it and they will come" but they lose marketshare and subs every quarter and for some reason the Tivo executives still don't get that they need to change. Oh well.


What would you do differently if you were a TiVo executive?


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## Doug Brott

[email protected] said:


> Will this unit support SWM and thus MRV?


SWiM will likely be supported, but support for SWiM doesn't necessarily lead to support for MRV.


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## jdspencer

From a technical standpoint, is it possible for DirecTV to port the TiVo interface into an existing HR DVR? Specifically, the HR24 since it's the latest box? It would also be nice if the user had the option to choose which interface they wanted to use. Similar to the option on the DirecTiVo to choose between two different styles of guide.


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## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd agree that SWiM Support would have to be mandatory. As for MRV, it would be great if it did, but I could completely see them putting the device out there without it.


To extend my completely unsupportable theory a bit more...It would be bad business for DirecTV. That's $3/mo they couldn't get just because someone chose to have the TiVo interface. I doubt DirecTV would give up the potential income.

Further, there will be a fee attached to having TiVo. How many people, including the diehards, would pay an extra fee that effectively disables MRV? Why the heck would DirecTV give up money so that TiVo can make money? IMHO, any feature that's a revenue stream will most likely be included in the DirecTiVo.

Of course I'm reminded of the recently posted EVO/iPhone video. There will always be those that, no matter what the feature set is, will say "I don't care" and opt for TiVo. :grin:

The question is can TiVo survive if they can't lure large numbers of DirecTV customers?

Can they attract enough subscribers to make this a worth while venture for them without MRV?

Can TiVo survive as a company if they don't bring in enough revenue from the DirecTiVo?

I'm not a financial analyst but I suspect the answer to all of these is no.

It's a theory. :grin:

Mike


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## Sixto

Been wondering if the delay had something to do with a possible change in direction to port to a more current platform (HR24), and to properly support MRV.


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## -Draino-

I can't believe TIVO is still in business.


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## gregjones

Sixto said:


> Been wondering if the delay had something to do with a possible change in direction to port to a more current platform (HR24), and to properly support MRV.


If that is the case, TIVO is much worse than I previously assumed. The HR24 is nearly identical to the HR20. The few differences are easily remedied at the driver level. Even a beginning computer science student (at universities where professors still teach their own classes) knows that you build the core functionality separate from device- or function-specific modules.

If the TIVO software is so monolithic that it could not accommodate so simple (and foreseeable) a change, then they have no business continuing to function as a software company. They would have wasted a great deal of money, time and intellectual property on an architecture out of date some 15 years in the past.

I refuse to believe the world let them get by so long with such a concept. Bureaucracy, I can believe. Inept management I can believe. But who would allow the perpetuation of such a bad design over such a long period of time? If they were ever so foolish as to follow that particular path, they deserve to wither penniless on the scrapheap of obsolete technology.


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## Mike Bertelson

gregjones said:


> If that is the case, TIVO is much worse than I previously assumed. The HR24 is nearly identical to the HR20. The few differences are easily remedied at the driver level. Even a beginning computer science student (at universities where professors still teach their own classes) knows that you build the core functionality separate from device- or function-specific modules.
> 
> If the TIVO software is so monolithic that it could not accommodate so simple (and foreseeable) a change, then they have no business continuing to function as a software company. They would have wasted a great deal of money, time and intellectual property on an architecture out of date some 15 years in the past.
> 
> I refuse to believe the world let them get by so long with such a concept. Bureaucracy, I can believe. Inept management I can believe. But who would allow the perpetuation of such a bad design over such a long period of time? If they were ever so foolish as to follow that particular path, they deserve to wither penniless on the scrapheap of obsolete technology.


On a hardware level it's completely different. I'm not sure it's just a matter of a couple of drivers.

Let's assume it has a completely different processor (NXP CX24500/CX24118A). Is that just a matter of a new driver?

I honestly don't know the answer but I would suspect it requires _more_ than just a new driver. :shrug:

Mike


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## Stuart Sweet

I know that DIRECTV went to a more hardware-abstraction-layer type model a couple years ago. Much like a Windows PC that only needs drivers to operate with new hardware, the DIRECTV software is portable to a lot of different platforms, as we've seen. 

I have no evidence that TiVo ever made that jump. In fact people have told me that they didn't. So any software for a new piece of hardware would have major chunks that need revising. That alone tells me that the new TiVo, if it ever arrives, will be based on HR23 not HR24, because HR23 is much more similar to their current hardware.


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## bonscott87

JBernardK said:


> What would you do differently if you were a TiVo executive?


DirecTV would be priority #1. Period.

They keep talking and have for years how they want to get out of the hardware business and just provide the software for 3rd parties. Yet they continue to spend what little money and time they have on new stand alone platforms that have limit use (cable and OTA) and are expensive up front compared to free from the cable company and no VOD (which is becoming a huge deal now) and have even screwed that up (Premier).

Anyway, so they announce a new DirecTV deal and basically don't make it priority #1 and get it out NOW. DirecTV by far was always their biggest customer and made up the vast majority of their subs. Their cable deals have all been flops (or just plain vaporware that has never shipped). DirecTV is their golden goose. Yet they appear to have delayed themselves right into obscurity now. They had a window of about a year or less to make an impact. Now the ship has sailed and momentum is way too much behind the DirecTV in house DVRs for Tivo to ever make a big splash (or even a little one).

They really screwed up by not focusing every resource they had on getting a new DirecTV box out yesterday. Now it's too late, it really is, even if it actually does ship next year.


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## gregjones

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know that DIRECTV went to a more hardware-abstraction-layer type model a couple years ago. Much like a Windows PC that only needs drivers to operate with new hardware, the DIRECTV software is portable to a lot of different platforms, as we've seen.
> 
> I have no evidence that TiVo ever made that jump. In fact people have told me that they didn't. So any software for a new piece of hardware would have major chunks that need revising. That alone tells me that the new TiVo, if it ever arrives, will be based on HR23 not HR24, because HR23 is much more similar to their current hardware.


If this is the case, they wrote their own expiration date.


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## gregjones

bonscott87 said:


> They keep talking and have for years how they want to get out of the hardware business and just provide the software for 3rd parties.


Which only works if you a) develop good reusable software and b) deliver it close to on-time.



bonscott87 said:


> They had a window of about a year or less to make an impact. Now the ship has sailed and momentum is way too much behind the DirecTV in house DVRs for Tivo to ever make a big splash (or even a little one).


And this is where they really disappoint me. They were winning, not an industry leader but the industry leader. And when they were cash-rich and able to raise additional capital, they should have moved to a modularized design. Not only would that have given them a more flexible product, it would have significantly reduced the cost to enter into new agreements. Because if porting is less expensive, you do it more often and with less risk.

How did they accomplish so very little for so long?

As it is they are now struggling to get a very old GUI on an aging hardware platform in order to provide features that are no longer unique or sometimes even best-of-class. Even if they released it today, would it matter anymore?

Really, I knew they were gone when I got their latest email offer...a refurbished Series2 for $29.99. Sorry, but why would I possibly want a Series2 now? Next someone will offer to sell me year-old newspapers for only 18 cents apiece.


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## gregjones

And for new readers...I was a huge TiVo fan. My old Sony DirecTiVo was a pretty big investment for me when I was much younger. Then updates started taking longer and longer for the Sony. And it took so long to get HD on a DirecTiVo. Then there were numerous problems with the HR10s. I did the unthinkable and went to cable HD. But when DIRECTV expanded HD and the HR20 was stable, I came back to DirecTV. I didn't miss that little guy at all. I just missed having a decent (non-Scientific Atlanta) DVR 

TiVo and I had a relationship, but it ran its course. After a while, TiVo didn't call me anymore (no updates) or care how it looked (slow to HD, then issues). We grew apart. So in my mind, TiVo broke up with me, not the other way around.


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## Stuart Sweet

gregjones said:


> (...) Even if they released it today, would it matter anymore?(...)


And I think that boils it down as well as anything else


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## jacmyoung

bonscott87 said:


> ...They really screwed up by not focusing every resource they had on getting a new DirecTV box out yesterday. Now it's too late, it really is, even if it actually does ship next year.


They focused their resources on the lawsuits, which was undertandable but lawsuits take time and are unpredictable. After the case stalled at the appeals court, TiVo has been more focused on parternership with small cablecos and rolling out the new Premiere DVR, there were even sign of initial favorable acceptance.

But I agree it is too late to right this DirecTiVo mother ship.


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## tonyd79

Well, they did take on a pretty big launch of new hardware and a supposedly all-new GUI with, presumably, new underlying software in the Premiere. And they have having problems pulling that off. Now out for several months, they have yet to complete their new HD GUI, for example.

When they did that (the new hardware), they changed their software model to a Java (is that what it is, my memory if failing and don't have time to look it up), so they should be more platform independent than they were.

But they have wasted time with internet based (non-cached) features like pictures and suggested items in a ribbon (how Microsoft Office of them) rather than concentrate on getting the new box up and running.

I think they are a mess without direction at this time. Their money is in getting out of the hardware business but they keep getting into it. They have built their brand on a perception of rock-solid appliances but are concentrating on gee-whiz items rather than making their new box rock solid.

From outside, it appears they are undermanned for what they are trying to do.


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## gregjones

jacmyoung said:


> They focused their resources on the lawsuits, which was undertandable but lawsuits take time and are unpredictable. After the case stalled at the appeals court, TiVo has been more focused on parternership with small cablecos and rolling out the new Premiere DVR, there were even sign of initial favorable acceptance.
> 
> But I agree it is too late to right this DirecTiVo mother ship.


I"m sure there were a few developers on staff that were not also serving as the TiVo legal team. They could have multitasked.


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## hdtvfan0001

I have become a believer....a believer of reality on this topic.

1) Having met with the Tivo folks at CES this past January...only to be told that no new equipment would be presented there (this show is to show off new things coming out in the next 6 - 24 months),

2) Having seen no credible evidence of the existence of any testing or other pre-release activities in 2010,

3) and since Doug and Stuart said so 

I am now in the camp that the probability of seeing a new DirecTivo HD DVR is remotely small, and even if it surfaces some day...the passing of time would render it as a non-event.

To make it something special, it would have to *be* special - *much* more than just a new Tivo UI. I no longer see that in the cards. The HR24 series is going to be a tough act to follow. I am now a convert to the "doubt it" camp.


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## ATARI

-Draino- said:


> I can't believe TIVO is still in business.


Me either.


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## Stuart Sweet

Well all I can say is they're not the first market leader to lose steam and become an also-ran in the field they helped pioneer. What's another one?


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## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well all I can say is they're not the first market leader to lose steam and become an also-ran in the field they helped pioneer. What's another one?


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## Curtis52

-Draino- said:


> I can't believe TIVO is still in business.


Where do you think you miscalculated?


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## Doug Brott

Curtis52 said:


> Where do you think you miscalculated?


I think the comment was more geared towards "What have you done for me lately?" than anything else. Honestly, with what little "good" they've put out recently you'd almost think TiVo was an Urban Legend.


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## joshjr

I have never had a TiVo but have been waiting and waiting for this HD DVR to come out. I have grown very tired of waiting and a lack of informaiton. I now haev dounts that it will live up to any expectations I had. As long as its taking things would need to be updated a few times over just to compete with current HD DVR's D* already offers.s We shall see what happens but I for one am no longer in the cant wait boat. More like believe it when I see it.


----------



## jacmyoung

Curtis52 said:


> Where do you think you miscalculated?


There is no miscalculation here because folks here only look at the technical side of the business, which TiVo has failed to prove nor did they even try hard enough. The reason TiVo is still in business is largely because the investors still hope for a large payout from the lawsuit. But you cannot blame folks here for "miscalculating" on that part because they are not get-rich-quick investors, they are consumers of the actual products which TiVo has so far failed them.

I will even go one step further to argue that, had the TX court sided with DISH back in 2008, TiVo might have been forced to refocus on the product development side a lot sooner, and we could have seen a lot more new TiVo products rolling out by now.


----------



## bicker1

It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong. This is not uncommon, online. Generally, folks don't care enough about realities and about business in general to integrate a comprehensive understanding of things into their contributions to the discussion.

The important thing to remember, in this discussion, is that the vast majority of people here are not getting what *they personally* want from TiVo, so their comments about TiVo are colored by their personal animosity. Casual readers would be well-advised to read this thread with that in mind, understanding that they're getting basically only the "bashers" perspective.

I think TiVo's got problems and went down the wrong path, at times, like any business that takes risks must, but the comments in this thread have been nowhere near close to the actuality.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong. This is not uncommon, online. Generally, folks don't care enough about realities and about business in general to integrate a comprehensive understanding of things into their contributions to the discussion.
> 
> The important thing to remember, in this discussion, is that the vast majority of people here are not getting what *they personally* want from TiVo, so their comments about TiVo are colored by their personal animosity. Casual readers would be well-advised to read this thread with that in mind, understanding that they're getting basically only the "bashers" perspective.
> 
> I think TiVo's got problems and went down the wrong path, at times, like any business that takes risks must, but the comments in this thread have been nowhere near close to the actuality.


Hmmm...Interesting. I'm not sure we're reading the same thread because I haven't seen any "bashing" or "self-congratulatory litany". Although, it's just as likely that we have different ideas of what constitutes "bashing" and "self-congratulatory litany".

My idea is slamming someone for the comment they make rather then commenting on the subject at hand. As to "self-congratulatory litany", ok I don't think I know how that applies to any post in this thread. :grin:

I think this thread is doing well and certainly better then the previous versions have.

It's and interesting subject. Will it happen? What will it have? What theories do people have?

So far I like this thread. Some interesting discussion with no bashing of other people for their comments...as it should be. 

Now, who agrees/disagrees with my MRV theory? 

:backtotop

Mike


----------



## ATARI

bicker1 said:


> It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong. This is not uncommon, online. Generally, folks don't care enough about realities and about business in general to integrate a comprehensive understanding of things into their contributions to the discussion.
> 
> The important thing to remember, in this discussion, is that the vast majority of people here are not getting what *they personally* want from TiVo, so their comments about TiVo are colored by their personal animosity. Casual readers would be well-advised to read this thread with that in mind, understanding that they're getting basically only the "bashers" perspective.
> 
> I think TiVo's got problems and went down the wrong path, at times, like any business that takes risks must, but the comments in this thread have been nowhere near close to the actuality.


Please enlighten us further...


----------



## jacmyoung

ATARI said:


> Please enlighten us further...


Let me venture a guess that he was trying to say, the delay of the new DirecTiVo is not necessarily TiVo's own doing, some theory I had advanced at one time. But as time went on, TiVo's difficulty in rolling out their own new products began to support the view held by many here.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yeah, based on the problems with the Comcast Tivo and how long that took to roll out, it seems pretty easy to place the blame back on TiVo Inc.


----------



## gregjones

bicker1 said:


> It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong. This is not uncommon, online. Generally, folks don't care enough about realities and about business in general to integrate a comprehensive understanding of things into their contributions to the discussion.
> 
> The important thing to remember, in this discussion, is that the vast majority of people here are not getting what *they personally* want from TiVo, so their comments about TiVo are colored by their personal animosity. Casual readers would be well-advised to read this thread with that in mind, understanding that they're getting basically only the "bashers" perspective.


No. Actually I am disappointed at a professional level more than anything else. TiVo had the capital and market lead in order to take their lightning-in-a-jar product and refit it for mass deployment. As an expert in software design, I can say very clearly that they failed. They let their technical failure color their business objectives by releasing products with little innovation (compared to the time in development), consistently missed deadlines and lack of penetration into untapped markets. Their lack of delivery on the technical aspects has deteriorated their market position and their prospects.

At this point they are little more than owners of rights for certain software and look-and-feel components. They are squatters on ideas they own from the past and have contributed very little since those ideas that would justify increased investment or consumer advocacy.

At its heart, TiVo is a software company. They failed at maintaining their software in a way that met market needs. It is somewhat difficult to be a success when you fail at your primary goal. Again. And again.


----------



## bonscott87

jacmyoung said:


> Let me venture a guess that he was trying to say, the delay of the new DirecTiVo is not necessarily TiVo's own doing, some theory I had advanced at one time. But as time went on, TiVo's difficulty in rolling out their own new products began to support the view held by many here.


Ding, I think we have the answer for his post. And that's fine, but just come out and say it and bring forward why he thinks so. I to really like the discussion so far in this thread as there really hasn't been any "bashing" but actual well thought out discussion.

So as for a delay on DirecTV's side...well I could see them asking for a delay to put the new Tivo box on the HR24 but that's about it. AND that should in now way have slowed Tivo down. As noted their software development almost sounds like assembly language specific to every single chip or something. There should be no reason why Tivo couldn't have had it all developed and ready to go say on an HR20 and then easily port it to the HR24. But if that was the case it would have been out by now.

And as Stuart points out, the loooooong delay and problems with the Comcast Tivo and the still not rolled out Cox Tivo box really points things to bad software design on the part of Tivo that makes it so difficult to port to other platforms.

Which is curious since Tivo has for years wanted to become just a software developer for other platforms and the fact they still haven't gotten their code portable just doesn't make sense. And then their "solution" is Flash on the Premier? Flash? Really? Wow. And they still haven't finished it.


----------



## gregjones

It almost comes across that they fired all of their competent developers before they knew their software was popular and the ones left could only emulate what was done before. If you cannot innovate, you get stuck selling knock-offs of your own old ideas.

I know absolutely nobody involved in TiVo software development. But from the outside looking in, the software team was either underfunded, given poor direction or prioritized below legal work. Right now, it seems TiVo will be much more successful long-term due to their legal team and not because of any recent innovation.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong. This is not uncommon, online. Generally, folks don't care enough about realities and about business in general to integrate a comprehensive understanding of things into their contributions to the discussion.
> 
> The important thing to remember, in this discussion, is that the vast majority of people here are not getting what *they personally* want from TiVo, so their comments about TiVo are colored by their personal animosity. Casual readers would be well-advised to read this thread with that in mind, understanding that they're getting basically only the "bashers" perspective.
> 
> I think TiVo's got problems and went down the wrong path, at times, like any business that takes risks must, but the comments in this thread have been nowhere near close to the actuality.


Well, this is a thread about the DIRECTV TiVo .. Many people, not just those here want HD .. Can't get that with the DIRECTV TiVo .. I believe the disappointment (2 years since "We're coming back") is felt by many many people. The first thing a company needs before they can sell anything is an actual product .. That's missing here.


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## PkDog

It is obvious that the only way Tivo can still come out of this with a desirable product is to provide some advantage over the existing DirecTv product. The only chance I see for that is to provide an actual HD UI. This is the one area where D* is still lagging. Beautiful HD pictures but with an SD user interface.

To do that, Tivo would probably have to require an HR24 since the other receivers don't have the horsepower to support a higher resolution interface.

If they did come out with an HD UI and at least all of the functionality currently supported in the D* receivers, it might be interesting. However, the chances of that happening are pretty darn small.


----------



## Hoosier205

I haven't been following this topic closely, but if they come to market with a unit that lags beyond the TiVo Premier/Premier XL then I will see it as a failure. It cannot be a current HRxx with two or three additional DVR features and a TiVo logo slapped on it. The newest TiVo GUI is beautiful.

I'm not sure whose failure it would be (DirecTV or TiVo), but if it takes this long to develop something it had better be substantial.


----------



## gregjones

Honestly, I cannot understand the fascination with an HD UI. I've seen bad UIs (once had a Scientific Atlanta HD DVR) and the current HR2x UI is not a bad UI. 

I do, however, feel that some people would buy a new DirecTiVo based solely on the TiVo guide listing. I'm not one of them, but many people detest anything but that particular view that focuses more on what's coming on a channel than what is on now across many channels.

I guess I just see the potential issues in an HD UI. The biggest advantage would be getting more information on screen. But then you have to consider that many people have relatively small HDTVs. Designing for a 55" screen will leave a 32" screen unusable.

Also, the HR2x got a lot of buyin from people because it looked just like their previous non-DVR receiver. So I am afraid I don't understand what would be accomplished by a HD UI beyond the whole smaller font -> more lines in the guide tradeoff. Please, enlighten me and you might have a convert.


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## Stuart Sweet

Hoosier205 said:


> I haven't been following this topic closely, but if they come to market with a unit that lags beyond the TiVo Premier/Premier XL then I will see it as a failure.(...)


Well, according to the intelligence we've gotten, the new DIRECTV TiVo will be based on the Series3 look, not the Premier look. So I guess it's a failure.


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## gregjones

In the interest of fairness, I am always astounded by the concerns of the GUI. I am also a heavy user of Ubuntu. Each time the alpha for a new release is announced, there is great hoopla over the desktop theme and default background. Personally, I can think of thousands of other things to be interested in moreso than these items but some people put great import in what the new version "looks like" out of the box.

I'm all for more information and really like the addition of posters and content advisory information in recent HR2x releases. More info, presented in a constructive way is always good. But the term HD GUI always comes across to me like true HD that smarmy TV salesmen used a few years ago when they meant 1080p. It's a way of differentiating a product without telling you what it gets you. That would be like a restaurant selling "flavor-enhanced steak." Some people would ask other restaurants why their steak wasn't flavor-enhanced. I would ask the restaurant that came up with the catchphrase what was wrong with their steak to begin with.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

gregjones said:


> Honestly, I cannot understand the fascination with an HD UI. I've seen bad UIs (once had a Scientific Atlanta HD DVR) and the current HR2x UI is not a bad UI.
> 
> I do, however, feel that some people would buy a new DirecTiVo based solely on the TiVo guide listing. I'm not one of them, but many people detest anything but that particular view that focuses more on what's coming on a channel than what is on now across many channels.
> 
> I guess I just see the potential issues in an HD UI. The biggest advantage would be getting more information on screen. But then you have to consider that many people have relatively small HDTVs. Designing for a 55" screen will leave a 32" screen unusable.
> 
> Also, the HR2x got a lot of buyin from people because it looked just like their previous non-DVR receiver. So I am afraid I don't understand what would be accomplished by a HD UI beyond the whole smaller font -> more lines in the guide tradeoff. Please, enlighten me and you might have a convert.


A smaller clearer font to get a few more lines on the List and Guide; that's pretty much if for me.

Other than that, I can't see much use for an HD GUI.

Mike


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## Hoosier205

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, according to the intelligence we've gotten, the new DIRECTV TiVo will be based on the Series3 look, not the Premier look. So I guess it's a failure.


Well then it will be a failure in my eyes, but that's just me. It just seems odd, lazy, and silly. They just released their fourth series, yet the DirecTV/TiVo device will be based on their third series. It should be equal to or greater than their current product line, rather than a step backwards. I'm hoping to see something innovative rather than something which lands with a thud.


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## joshjr

PkDog said:


> *It is obvious that the only way Tivo can still come out of this with a desirable product is to provide some advantage over the existing DirecTv product. The only chance I see for that is to provide an actual HD UI. *This is the one area where D* is still lagging. Beautiful HD pictures but with an SD user interface.
> 
> To do that, Tivo would probably have to require an HR24 since the other receivers don't have the horsepower to support a higher resolution interface.
> 
> If they did come out with an HD UI and at least all of the functionality currently supported in the D* receivers, it might be interesting. However, the chances of that happening are pretty darn small.


Your kidding right? What about a faster unit then even the HR24? One that boots up in 2 minutes or has more tuners or a larger HDD? I personally would perfer any of those over a HD UI.


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## Hoosier205

joshjr said:


> Your kidding right? What about a faster unit then even the HR24? One that boots up in 2 minutes or has more tuners or a larger HDD? I personally would perfer any of those over a HD UI.


I see no reason why we can't have all of those things.


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## hdtvfan0001

In the end....any new DirecTV Tivo-based HD DVR is going to require *significant distinguishing capabilities/features *to both encourage adoption and support a likely extra fee for such a device.

It would likely take alot more than just a new/different user interface (UI) to have folks flock to paying more and adopting a new (unproven) unit. Couple that with the extended misfires on the Comcast new HD DVR...and there seems to be no reason to be either optimistic nor anxious.


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## Curtis52

DirecTV determines the available features, not TiVo.


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## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In the end....any new DirecTV Tivo-based HD DVR is going to require *significant distinguishing capabilities/features *to both encourage adoption and support a likely extra fee for such a device.
> 
> It would likely take alot more than just a new/different user interface (UI) to have folks flock to paying more and adopting a new (unproven) unit. Couple that with the extended misfires on the Comcast new HD DVR...and there seems to be no reason to be either optimistic nor anxious.


I agree with you. That extra fee is going to be it's down fall. That is unless it can provide more for the general subscriber than the current HD DVR+ line.

IMHO, in order for the DirecTiVo (or even TiVo the company) to survive it must have an appeal for the average subscriber.

There are a few diehards here who will pay the extra fee almost on principal, but how do you convince the average/new subscriber to pay that extra amount?

My theory is that the DirecTiVo must have all the features of the current HR2x series plus some features that set it apart in the eyes of the average subscriber. Personally I don't see it happening.

I think I've actually just convinced myself that the DirecTiVo is DOA. That is unless they can figure out how to lure in the average subscriber.

One could argue that the TiVo only features that currently exist would be enough but I disagree. Further, if you look at from the average subscriber's point of view, it's going to about the money and not the features. Given the choice of paying for TiVo service and the lesser DirecTV DVR service, which do you think the averager person will subscribe to?

There just aren't enough diehards to make this venture viable. How do you market this to the average Joe?

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001

Curtis52 said:


> DirecTV determines the available features, not TiVo.


Sort of.

Features include a specific UI, which is driven by Tivo (but approved by DirecTV). Capabilities, such as SWiM support, would be driven by DirecTV (and implemented by Tivo). The details of who has responsibility for what would be contained as exhibits to the partner agreement itself.


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## Mike Bertelson

Curtis52 said:


> DirecTV determines the available features, not TiVo.


If that were the case the DirecTiVo is certainly dead in the water.

There has to be some way to set the DirecTiVo apart to justify the additional fee.

Mike


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## joshjr

MicroBeta said:


> I agree with you. That extra fee is going to be it's down fall. That is unless it can provide more for the general subscriber than the current HD DVR+ line.
> 
> IMHO, in order for the DirecTiVo (or even TiVo the company) to survive it must have an appeal for the average subscriber.
> 
> There are a few diehards here who will pay the extra fee almost on principal, but how do you convince the average/new subscriber to pay that extra amount?
> 
> My theory is that the DirecTiVo must have all the features of the current HR2x series plus some features that set it apart in the eyes of the average subscriber. Personally I don't see it happening.
> 
> I think I've actually just convinced myself that the DirecTiVo is DOA. That is unless they can figure out how to lure in the average subscriber.
> 
> One could argue that the TiVo only features that currently exist would be enough but I disagree. Further, if you look at from the average subscriber's point of view, it's going to about the money and not the features. Given the choice of paying for TiVo service and the lesser DirecTV DVR service, which do you think the averager person will subscribe to?
> 
> There just aren't enough diehards to make this venture viable. How do you market this to the average Joe?
> 
> Mike


I agree with you. Thats part of what kept me interested was I could not wait to see what the newer bigger and better features of the new TiVo HD DVR. Well that was well over a year ago. No I am losing interest. Not to mention I am having doubts that it will be that fantastic. One could argue that with it taking so much time it would be incredible. The other hand is it could still be a pile of XXXX. I really need something with more tuners. I dont want to have to use a 2nd DVR on the same TV. I would also like something that had a decent HDD in it. Whats wrong with putting a 1TB in some of the new HD DVR's? This would appeal to me if it was in the TiVo. Time will tell but I think its for sure going to be an uphill battle for them at this point. *Way* to long of a wait to get the product out.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

joshjr said:


> I agree with you. Thats part of what kept me interested was I could not wait to see what the newer bigger and better features of the new TiVo HD DVR. Well that was well over a year ago. No I am losing interest. Not to mention I am having doubts that it will be that fantastic. One could argue that with it taking so much time it would be incredible. The other hand is it could still be a pile of XXXX. I really need something with more tuners. I dont want to have to use a 2nd DVR on the same TV. I would also like something that had a decent HDD in it. Whats wrong with putting a 1TB in some of the new HD DVR's? This would appeal to me if it was in the TiVo. Time will tell but I think its for sure going to be an uphill battle for them at this point. *Way* to long of a wait to get the product out.


Even something with more tuners and a larger hard drive may not be enough.

The HMC30 should have that covered.

Now where does TiVo go?

Mike


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> [snip]





ATARI said:


> [snip]





jacmyoung said:


> [snip]





gregjones said:


> [snip]





bonscott87 said:


> [snip]


Thanks for proving my point so effectively and so quickly.


----------



## Curtis52

MicroBeta said:


> If that were the case the DirecTiVo is certainly dead in the water.
> 
> There has to be some way to set the DirecTiVo apart to justify the additional fee.
> 
> Mike


Non sequitur? DirecTV can allow/direct any features they want. Who said there won't be a distinction of features that sets the TiVo option apart? ShheesssH. WTH?

Edit: Perhaps you don't understand that TiVo and DirecTV are working in partnership.


----------



## Hoosier205

Curtis52 said:


> Non sequitur? DirecTV can allow/direct any features they want. Who said there won't be a distinction of features that sets the TiVo option apart? ShheesssH. WTH?
> 
> Edit: Perhaps you don't understand that TiVo and DirecTV are working in partnership.


I can assure you that he knows that far better than do you.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bicker1 said:


> Thanks for proving my point so effectively and so quickly.


You had a point?

Based on your last point...nobody got it.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> Thanks for proving my point so effectively and so quickly.


Your point is that DIRECTV is slowing this process down? You're wrong if that's your point. It's not a matter of dissing TiVo or anything like that .. It's simple fact.


----------



## Doug Brott

Curtis52 said:


> Non sequitur? DirecTV can allow/direct any features they want. Who said there won't be a distinction of features that sets the TiVo option apart? ShheesssH. WTH?
> 
> Edit: Perhaps you don't understand that TiVo and DirecTV are working in partnership.


TiVo is porting the software now .. DIRECTV is waiting on TiVo .. That is the extent of the delay at this point.


----------



## Mike Greer

I’m not sure it really matters who is slowing the new ‘DirecTivo’ down. Fact is I was a fan – paid $2000 for two of the original ones – but now? I don’t think so… Unless the new boxes have some Earth-shattering features I’m not going to be spending any more cash on them.

I’d suspect that all but the most loyal Tivo fans have moved on….. Not good news for Tivo….


----------



## bonscott87

MicroBeta said:


> I agree with you. That extra fee is going to be it's down fall. That is unless it can provide more for the general subscriber than the current HD DVR+ line.
> 
> IMHO, in order for the DirecTiVo (or even TiVo the company) to survive it must have an appeal for the average subscriber.
> 
> There are a few diehards here who will pay the extra fee almost on principal, but how do you convince the average/new subscriber to pay that extra amount?
> 
> My theory is that the DirecTiVo must have all the features of the current HR2x series plus some features that set it apart in the eyes of the average subscriber. Personally I don't see it happening.
> 
> I think I've actually just convinced myself that the DirecTiVo is DOA. That is unless they can figure out how to lure in the average subscriber.
> 
> One could argue that the TiVo only features that currently exist would be enough but I disagree. Further, if you look at from the average subscriber's point of view, it's going to about the money and not the features. Given the choice of paying for TiVo service and the lesser DirecTV DVR service, which do you think the averager person will subscribe to?
> 
> There just aren't enough diehards to make this venture viable. How do you market this to the average Joe?
> 
> Mike


Thing is, that will never, ever happen, it just won't.

Tivo can't convince the general public now to dump their crappy cable DVRs for an obviously better Tivo product.

Why?

Because people see their DVR as nothing more then a digital VCR.
Does it record their programs and play them back? Check. That's done and done as far as the general public is concerned.

The .05 % of the market that are geeks like on these forums do not drive overall sales.

Thus Tivo will have the same issue with DirecTV if not more of an issue. The HR2x is already heads and shoulders above any cable/FIOS/Uverse DVR. Things like Tivo suggestions or the Tivo list guide aren't going to make Joe Sixpack pay more per month for a DirecTivo.

The *only* way for it to become successful in terms of sales is if it doesn't cost a penny more and users had to choose which one to take when they sign up, HR2x or DirecTivo. In that case the DirecTivo would have a good uptake just based on the brand name.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Curtis52 said:


> Non sequitur? DirecTV can allow/direct any features they want. Who said there won't be a distinction of features that sets the TiVo option apart? ShheesssH. WTH?
> 
> Edit: Perhaps you don't understand that TiVo and DirecTV are working in partnership.


I guess I wasn't very clear. Sorry about that.

My point was if TiVo can't get the features they want into the new box, then their dead in the water.

Further, I don't believe either TiVo or DirecTV has total say as to what it contains. I could be wrong but it's rarely that simple. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> I'm not sure it really matters who is slowing the new 'DirecTivo' down. Fact is I was a fan - paid $2000 for two of the original ones - but now? I don't think so&#8230; Unless the new boxes have some Earth-shattering features I'm not going to be spending any more cash on them.
> 
> I'd suspect that all but the most loyal Tivo fans have moved on&#8230;.. Not good news for Tivo&#8230;.


Wonder if you still love it so much when it comes out on an HR22....I'm just sayin... 

Seriously...the last info given was that the software project was started at a time that coincided with the HR22/HR23 hardware in place. The 3D they just launched works on legacy receivers back tot he HR21. No reason to *assume *new hardware is in play.

Could be surprising to see how this all rolls out...and of course....*if *it does.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You had a point?
> 
> Based on your last point...nobody got it.


Thus the pointlessness. :lol:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> Thing is, that will never, ever happen, it just won't.
> 
> Tivo can't convince the general public now to dump their crappy cable DVRs for an obviously better Tivo product.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because people see their DVR as nothing more then a digital VCR.
> Does it record their programs and play them back? Check. That's done and done as far as the general public is concerned.
> 
> The .05 % of the market that are geeks like on these forums do not drive overall sales.
> 
> Thus Tivo will have the same issue with DirecTV if not more of an issue. The HR2x is already heads and shoulders above any cable/FIOS/Uverse DVR. Things like Tivo suggestions or the Tivo list guide aren't going to make Joe Sixpack pay more per month for a DirecTivo.
> 
> The *only* way for it to become successful in terms of sales is if it doesn't cost a penny more and users had to choose which one to take when they sign up, HR2x or DirecTivo. In that case the DirecTivo would have a good uptake just based on the brand name.


Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that this is never gonna happen.

Outside of a very small group of diehards, this is going to be a nearly impossible sell unless, like you said, it doesn't cost anymore, or brings something revolutionary to the table.

Mike


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wonder if you still love it so much when it comes out on an HR22....I'm just sayin...
> 
> Seriously...the last info given was that the software project was started at a time that coincided with the HR22/HR23 hardware in place. The 3D they just launched works on legacy receivers back tot he HR21. No reason to *assume *new hardware is in play.
> 
> Could be surprising to see how this all rolls out...and of course....*if *it does.


Well, I didn't it 'love it so much' then but.....

Damn, when you put it that way maybe they'll have to pay me to take it!

I suspect that my problems with the HR22 are more software related than hardware related so a Tivo based on the HR22 could work.... Did I just say that? Don't quote me but... Maybe....

I think the surprising thing will be if it does ever roll out....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> Well, I didn't it 'love it so much' then but.....
> 
> Damn, when you put it that way maybe they'll have to pay me to take it!
> 
> I suspect that my problems with the *HR22 are more software related than hardware related *so a Tivo based on the HR22 could work.... Did I just say that? Don't quote me but... Maybe....
> 
> I think the surprising thing will be if it does ever roll out....


The only way to know for sure would be to run this procedure and see what happens after that...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2534960&postcount=18

In the mean time...the only thing most everyone agrees on is that the release of the next HD Tivo unit is Sloooooooow in being released.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Thanks for proving my point so effectively and so quickly.


I kinda thought my post was pretty balanced and objective. Sorry if I have offended you in some way.

I still like the discussion in this thread.

Mike


----------



## bidger

bonscott87 said:


> Thing is, that will never, ever happen, it just won't.
> 
> Tivo can't convince the general public now to dump their crappy cable DVRs for an obviously better Tivo product.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because people see their DVR as nothing more then a digital VCR.
> Does it record their programs and play them back? Check. That's done and done as far as the general public is concerned.


There's also the fact that you have to deal with Cable Card technology with TiVo and a tuning resolver if SDV is deployed by your cable carrier. Also, OnDemand and subscription Sports packages are ruled out. I have friends who have cable (yeah, I know I'm not supposed to, but they have huge trees surrounding their property ) and OnDemand is frequently used. And I agree, a lot of the things that TiVo offers are lost on typical consumers.


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The only way to know for sure would be to run this procedure and see what happens after that...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2534960&postcount=18
> 
> In the mean time...the only thing most everyone agrees on is that the release of the next HD Tivo unit is Sloooooooow in being released.


I'm not sure what you mean? I don't think that reformatting my HR22s is going to 'speed' them up. When I say software I'm talking about replacing the DirecTV 'software' with Tivo 'software'. Kind of like running Linux on a PC rather than Windows.

Slow in being released? Think maybe 'stalled' is a better word! You throw that 'slow' word around way too much!


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bidger said:


> There's also the fact that you have to deal with Cable Card technology with TiVo and a tuning resolver if SDV is deployed by your cable carrier. Also, OnDemand and subscription Sports packages are ruled out. I have friends who have cable (yeah, I know I'm not supposed to, but they have huge trees surrounding their property ) and OnDemand is frequently used. And I agree, a lot of the things that TiVo offers are lost on typical consumers.


If it uses existing hardware, then wouldn't it use the current DirecTV Access Card? :scratchin

Mike


----------



## jal

I tried cable last week, in large part because Blockbuster was selling HD TIVos for $99, and I was having too muich rain fade with Directv. The cable installation guy came without the correct cable cards (brought two single stream instead of 1 M), thereby doubling the monthly charge. I hadn't had cable since 1996, and the digital picture was very good. However, the SDV converter was not available, and I spent a half a day on the phone with TWC trying to get one. Also, we have underground wiring from the street, so the installer left the cable from the box by the curb strung over my grass and walkway, saying somebody would be out later to bury it. No one showed up, and the cable is still there.

I enjoyed playing with the TIVO, although it was missing a number of channels due to SDV. I was also suprised about the quality of the TWC DVR that was included in the package price--it had new Navigator software on it, and it was easy to use. My kids and my wife, however, didn't want to leave Directv because the channel numbering on TWC was confusing. We had analog channels from 2-99 and HD 1000+. However, the cable cards couldn't tune above 999, so all the HD channels was between 400-499. In the end, we compared picture quality on the HD channels. It was hard to tell the difference. TWC had slightly better color quality, but Directv was sharper. So, we decided to keep Directv. TWC has a 30 day money back guarantee. Since they were unable to resolve the SDV issue promptly, and the wire is still over my lawn, I don't feel bad about taking them up on their offer.

The thing that started all of this, in addition to the TIVO, was that the Directv HD channels kept going out in the rain, and my wife was complaining. We had the Dish tuned, and it now doesn't go out as much, but it still happens more than I would like.

All this being said, I will try the new Directivo if it ever comes, but got it somewhat out of my system with this experience.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> I'm not sure what you mean? I don't think that reformatting my HR22s is going to 'speed' them up.


Then again...if you haven't tried it.......

As for "Sloooooow" being used in terms of the Tivobox delivery....I'm not sure many would feel that over 2 years is waiting is exactly "faaaaaaaast".


----------



## bidger

MicroBeta said:


> If it uses existing hardware, then wouldn't it use the current DirecTV Access Card? :scratchin
> 
> Mike


I was responding to this part of Bon's post: "Tivo can't convince the general public now to dump their crappy *cable* DVRs for an obviously better Tivo product." That's why I cited Cable Card, SDV, and OnDemand. Sorry for the confusion, Mike.


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then again...if you haven't tried it.......
> 
> As for "Sloooooow" being used in terms of the Tivobox delivery....I'm not sure many would feel that over 2 years is waiting is exactly "faaaaaaaast".


Tried, even used an external drive....

2 years waiting - I'd call that stopped, not slow!


----------



## wesmills

bidger said:


> There's also the fact that you have to deal with Cable Card technology with TiVo and a tuning resolver if SDV is deployed by your cable carrier. Also, OnDemand and subscription Sports packages are ruled out.


VOD programming from the cable company is universally not available (though several VOD options, such as Amazon, Netflix, and Blockbuster, are present and often cost less than the for-pay options of the cable provider), but sports packages, such as they are on cable, are available. I know people who have ordered NHL Center Ice from Charter, and I use MLB Extra Innings on FiOS, both with CableCARDs.

Frankly, I left DirecTV because of the lack of HD TiVo. While I could tolerate the new DVR series--and it's probably gotten better since I left in 2007--the wife and kid could not. Primary reason? Wishlists. Until that feature comes to DirecTV, no amount of cajoling could get those two back (and if the wife ain't happy, ain't nobody happy). I'd come back, if nothing else for MLBEI almost entirely in HD, but that feature is a Killer App for us. That and MRV, but DirecTV finally saw the light on MRV.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> 2 years waiting - I'd call that stopped, not slow!


Ditto.


----------



## bicker1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on your last point...nobody got it.


Based on how people reacted to it, it is *clear *that _they _got it.



Doug Brott said:


> Your point is that DIRECTV is slowing this process down?


No, not at all. However, beyond that, with regard to who's slowing what down - the assumption that there is blame associated with the device not yet being released is without foundation.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Based on how people reacted to it, it is *clear *that _they _got it.


Actually, I didn't get it. Before your post, nobody was "bashing" or being "self-congratulatory" so you post had no context within this thread and made absolutely no sense what so ever...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bidger said:


> I was responding to this part of Bon's post: "Tivo can't convince the general public now to dump their crappy *cable* DVRs for an obviously better Tivo product." That's why I cited Cable Card, SDV, and OnDemand. Sorry for the confusion, Mike.


Now I get it. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> Now I get it.
> 
> Mike


Ditto.


----------



## gregjones

bicker1 said:


> Based on how people reacted to it, it is *clear *that _they _got it.
> 
> No, not at all. However, beyond that, with regard to who's slowing what down - the assumption that there is blame associated with the device not yet being released is without foundation.


Ok. I will try to be very, very clear. TiVo has a history of never delivering a product on time. Not once. Not a standalone box, not an integrated box. ComCast customers waited extra years for the boxes, which to this day are only rolled out in selected markets.

The only complaint that is consistent about the HR2x series is that DIRECTV may have released the originals too early. We have a company supplying existing hardware with a history of delivering DVRs on time or early. We have a company supplying software that has an established track record of missed deadlines in every product category (multiple year misses, often). How do you possibly call that jumping to conclusions?

What downside is there for DIRECTV delaying the TiVo development anyway? From all indications, they stand to lose no money on the sale of any of the TiVo units. The DIRECTV hardware will presumably go at the same price as today and the TiVo software development would seem to be funded by the "premium price" for the service.

Furthermore, I very much want TiVo to release the product because I am a free market capitalist. Competition is good. I want TiVo to be their old seemingly competent self and provide innovation and functionality that pushes both products to be better.

So yes, I get your point just fine. You resent us using facts to draw reasonable conclusions based on TiVo's history instead of their marketing pitches.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> No, not at all. However, beyond that, with regard to who's slowing what down - the assumption that there is blame associated with the device not yet being released is without foundation.


TiVo announced in Fall 2008 that it would be available in second half of 2009 .. We are now in second half of 2010 with a likely release sometime in 2011 (barring additional setbacks) .. Why on earth should we NOT blame at least someone for the 1+ yr delay?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo announced in Fall 2008 that it would be available in second half of 2009 .. We are now in second half of 2010 with a likely release sometime in 2011 (barring additional setbacks) .. Why on earth should we NOT blame at least someone for the 1+ yr delay?


...and since Tivo is the one developing the firmware for the end product all that time, all based on specifications given to them way back then...the delay culprit would seem obvious to some. Having history repeat itself would make it even more obvious.


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ...No, not at all...


If so, you really had made no point at all, no one seemed to have gotten that non-point anyway.



> ...However, beyond that, with regard to who's slowing what down - the assumption that there is blame associated with the device not yet being released is without foundation.


What point is that? Is there a foundation to celebrate the delay?

In the early days the DirecTiVo threads had many TiVo enthusiasts, their number had dropped over time to the point now almost none is left here. It does make the thread look biased because there is no longer counter points made here for some time.

If you are trying to resurrect that counter point, by all means do so, no one wants just one-sided argument, just make sure there is a point you are making here.


----------



## klambert

In terms of TIVO and cable, the lack of "on demand" programming is a huge issue because Comcast is making a major push there and like DirecTV has some program sources like Fearnet only available on demand. It's this horrible choice between Comcast's dismal 160gb or losing on demand programming. And while I think I'm pretty aware of what the various technologies are likely to be, I honestly worry about the future compatibility of TIVO with cable.

The subscription fee is mostly a wash because comcast nails you almost the same for "rental" of a HD DVR.

This is from someone more than ready to pull the trigger based on comcast's better selection of HD where the sticking point IS the DVR options. (Honestly, if comcast enabled the esata on their box, we'd be customers right now.)


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> If you are trying to resurrect that counter point, by all means do so, no one wants just one-sided argument, just make sure there is a point you are making here.


I think the point is that we shouldn't be trying blame anyone for the delay .. My response is "why not?" :shrug:


----------



## Doug Brott

If we're not gonna talk about it we might as well shut the thread down and ban all discussion. There is legitimately NOTHING to talk about regarding the TiVo. The only concrete items we've had are the 9/08 press release, the occasional Tom Rogers "six more months" references, and the recent "We're waiting on TiVo" comment from Michael White.

TiVo should be THE premier DVR company. They very well could have been, too, but here we are today 10+ years after their inception and all anyone can talk about is their potential. All of TiVo's Patents expire within 10 years. It's time for them to get cracking ....


----------



## gregjones

Nothing is more sad than unrealized potential


----------



## bicker1

gregjones said:


> TiVo has a history of never delivering a product on time.


Pretty much. They have always had outrageously limited resources, and often had other things interfere with being able to get anything done "on time". That's one reason why they'll never commit to a specific date.

I've said quite often that there doesn't seem to be a viable business model for a stand-alone DVR maker. So that puts TiVo in the position of having to compete against companies like Cisco. The question you need to ask yourself is whether you think they should simply not exist, thereby limiting your choices to just what companies like Cisco are willing to do for you (and note that Cisco isn't willing to offer their STBs and DVRs for retail sale in the US). However, it goes beyond that. While you may or may not prefer TiVo to simply not exist, other folks have different perspectives, and appreciate the fact that there is a supplier, like TiVo, that does at least as much as TiVo does do *when they finally get around to doing it*.

In that context, that's all that matters - whether there are enough folks who do want (in this case) the DirecTiVo and will buy it when it finally is offered. The fact that there are other people who don't is not important. That's not to say that how many people willing to wait for it doesn't matter - but that goes back to what I've said repeatedly, that there doesn't seem to be a viable business model for a stand-alone DVR maker.

However, to blame TiVo for not being as big or as financially strong as Cisco is simply indefensible, and that's what much of what was being said boils down to: Second-guessing a small company based on your own personal perceptions of what you would want them to do, or what they arguably should do with regard to one specific product that you care about, ignoring how it fits into the big picture. I think it is enough for folks to say, "I'm not waiting for the DirecTiVo." There is no merit, nor need, to imply that TiVo hasn't been making the best decisions for itself all along.



gregjones said:


> What downside is there for DIRECTV delaying the TiVo development anyway? From all indications, they stand to lose no money on the sale of any of the TiVo units. The DIRECTV hardware will presumably go at the same price as today and the TiVo software development would seem to be funded by the "premium price" for the service.


I think for DirecTV the biggest concern is their investment in this effort, but perhaps that investment is small enough that DirecTV wouldn't care about it, as you imply. I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, if it was important enough to DirecTV, they'd have put specific deadlines in the contract and assessed penalties. There is no indication of any of that sort of thing.

A lot of service providers, out there, want to keep their eye on TiVo, want to keep themselves tied into what TiVo is doing, if only to not be preempted by competitors. When a lot of these deals were struck, TiVo was in a much more pivotal position in the industry. I think what a lot of folks are realizing now is that convergeance itself prompting a downgrading of TiVo's importance. Companies like Apple and Microsoft, which were basically thought of as laughable agents in this sector three years ago, are now much more significant, despite not having really achieved anything important. I think the realization, now, is that they can, and companies, like DirecTV, now are better served keeping themselves tied-in with Apple and Microsoft, as compared to companies that were more of interest several years ago, like TiVo.



gregjones said:


> Furthermore, I very much want TiVo to release the product because I am a free market capitalist. Competition is good. I want TiVo to be their old seemingly competent self and provide innovation and functionality that pushes both products to be better.


You're contradicting yourself. You said, very clear, before that TiVo has never been competent in this regard, i.e., with regard to how on-time they release products. And since you haven't seen the DirecTiVo they're building, yet, you cannot credibly comment on how good of a device it will be.



gregjones said:


> So yes, I get your point just fine. You resent us using facts to draw reasonable conclusions based on TiVo's history instead of their marketing pitches.


Rather, I don't resent anything; I object to folks using supposition and innuendo to justify unnecessary and baseless disparagement. There need not be, and in this case, there isn't any, blame.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I think the point is that we shouldn't be trying blame anyone for the delay .. My response is "why not?" :shrug:


Which was why I asked maybe he wanted to celebrate the delay

If the point is there is no need to blame or celebrate, i.e. no need to discuss it, then he is not interested in the TiVo subject, which sadly is true for the vast majority of people.


----------



## bicker1

I think people love to read whatever they want into whatever they read, rather than accepting what is actually written. Even *today* TiVo says, "This new service is expected to launch in 2010."

Expected to.

In English, that is not a commitment. Taking it as a commitment is simply misreading what is written.

Regardless, I'm waiting for it, whenever it is released. It would be enough to get me to reconsider switching providers. And I suspect that there are more potential customers who won't care about previous implications of when it would be delivered, and will just evaluate their options as they are considering them.


----------



## bonscott87

bicker1 said:


> The question you need to ask yourself is whether you think they should simply not exist, thereby limiting your choices to just what companies like Cisco are willing to do for you (and note that Cisco isn't willing to offer their STBs and DVRs for retail sale in the US). However, it goes beyond that. While you may or may not prefer TiVo to simply not exist, other folks have different perspectives, and appreciate the fact that there is a supplier, like TiVo, that does at least as much as TiVo does do *when they finally get around to doing it*.


Ummm, nobody is saying they think Tivo shouldn't exist. Competition is good. Some are just discussing how long Tivo may last as a company. That is wrong?



> However, to blame TiVo for not being as big or as financially strong as Cisco is simply indefensible, and that's what much of what was being said boils down to: Second-guessing a small company based on your own personal perceptions of what you would want them to do, or what they arguably should do with regard to one specific product that you care about, ignoring how it fits into the big picture. I think it is enough for folks to say, "I'm not waiting for the DirecTiVo." There is no merit, nor need, to imply that TiVo hasn't been making the best decisions for itself all along.


So you're saying that we can't criticize Tivo for the decisions they have made? Why is that wrong? There are plenty of threads on this very forum from people who criticize the decisions DirecTV makes on a daily basis. So you're saying people can't discuss in a civil matter (which so far this thread has been) how they feel Tivo has missed the boat or could have done better?

Again, why is this wrong to discuss in your eyes? Certainly fine if you don't agree with the opinions posted, but why is it wrong to discuss them?



> I think for DirecTV the biggest concern is their investment in this effort, but perhaps that investment is small enough that DirecTV wouldn't care about it, as you imply. I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, if it was important enough to DirecTV, they'd have put specific deadlines in the contract and assessed penalties. There is no indication of any of that sort of thing.


From the SEC filings DirecTV's investment is minimal, just a few million bucks in R&D. But it's all a matter of scale. Say $10 million is a HUGE deal to Tivo. To DirecTV it's maybe a weeks worth (or less) of profit and just a tax write off if it fails. No biggy to DirecTV.

You also forget that the main reason for this new agreement is the renewal of the no sue clause until 2018. Allowing Tivo to make a new box is just a side thing and matters not to DirecTV in the least. This has been discussed to death in previous threads.


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ...Rather, I don't resent anything; I object to folks using supposition and innuendo to justify unnecessary and baseless disparagement. There need not be, and in this case, there isn't any, blame.


If I understand you correctly, you have already resigned to the fact that TiVo will be less and less relevant, for good or bad reasons, and that is why there is no need to blame, because it is a foregone conclusion?

I think those who want to blame at least still show some level of interest in TiVo.

You pointed out that the standalone DVR business model has no future, if so TiVo should make every effort to at least show that they are using the limited resources in working day and night to reignite the DirecTiVo model. Since so far there is no evidence of them doing so, I think they deserve the blame.

If you know plan A will not work, and only plan B has the potential, then make every effort to show the world that you are working hard on plan B. That plan B is not limited to the DirecTiVo model, but the Comcast/cable model, even a possible Dish Network model. Dish CEO had already said he was willing to work with TiVo, even made a very specific offer publicly during the last quarterly call that he was willing to pay TiVo $120M a year to settle with TiVo and "work together."

The potentials are there, TiVo has yet shown that they are even interested in realizing those potentials. TiVo seems only interested in convincing the world that it has the monopoly in the DVR technology, that everyone else should come begging for it.


----------



## Hoosier205

Hmm...I see that this thread has simply become a place for folks to bicker with Bicker1, for Bicker1 to bicker with others, and possibly for Bicker1 to bicker with...Bicker1.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hoosier205 said:


> Hmm...I see that this thread has simply become a place for folks to bicker with Bicker1, for Bicker1 to bicker with others, and possibly for Bicker1 to bicker with...Bicker1.


Plenty of bickering for sure.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> However, to blame TiVo for not being as big or as financially strong as Cisco is simply indefensible, and that's what much of what was being said boils down to: Second-guessing a small company based on your own personal perceptions of what you would want them to do, or what they arguably should do with regard to one specific product that you care about, ignoring how it fits into the big picture. I think it is enough for folks to say, "I'm not waiting for the DirecTiVo." There is no merit, nor need, to imply that TiVo hasn't been making the best decisions for itself all along.


Uh, who brought up Cisco? :scratchin

The only "blame" is who is causing the delay (hint, it's TiVo) .. As for disparaging beloved TiVo .. It was a joint DIRECTV/TiVo announcement. DIRECTV has done their part (long, long ago, BTW) and is now waiting on TiVo. The announcement from them was for second half of 2009. I cut them some slack and was willing to call Q1/2010 the same thing, but as of today Q1/2011 seems to be fading.

TiVo set the time table and muffed it. We should sit back and say .. aww shucks, TiVo is not as big as as Cisco - we shouldn't rag on them about being late. Seriously?!



> I think for DirecTV the biggest concern is their investment in this effort, but perhaps that investment is small enough that DirecTV wouldn't care about it, as you imply. I'm not so sure about that. Regardless, if it was important enough to DirecTV, they'd have put specific deadlines in the contract and assessed penalties. There is no indication of any of that sort of thing.


I think DIRECTV is in a position to say "Great" if/when the TiVo becomes available or "Great" if it never does. For them it's a win-win, so yeah, I don't think DIRECTV cares whether it is a success or not. There's no reason to block nor is there reason to pressure.



> ... And since you haven't seen the DirecTiVo they're building, yet, you cannot credibly comment on how good of a device it will be.


I haven't seen it either, but I'm growing more confident with every day that disappointment will be the name of the game when the new DIRECTiVo is finally revealed.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> I think people love to read whatever they want into whatever they read, rather than accepting what is actually written. Even *today* TiVo says, "This new service is expected to launch in 2010."
> 
> Expected to.


Actually, I expected it to launch in 2010 as recently as 2-3 weeks back .. alas ... that has waned.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, I expected it to launch in 2010 as recently as 2-3 weeks back .. alas ... that has waned.


They were indeed singing that song from January through April of this year....lately....the choir has been silent and perhaps a new choir director being sought.


----------



## bicker1

bonscott87 said:


> Ummm, nobody is saying they think Tivo shouldn't exist.


There were indeed some comments implying that, or otherwise asserting that TiVo doing what was best for TiVo over the last three years was the wrong thing to do.


bonscott87 said:


> Some are just discussing how long Tivo may last as a company. That is wrong?


Surely not... did you read what *I* posted, in that regard?



bonscott87 said:


> So you're saying that we can't criticize Tivo for the decisions they have made?


There is a difference between a company making the wrong decisions and a company doing things that don't satisfy you. In the absence of the full context of TiVo's decision-making, how could anyone possibly comment on whether the decisions made were right or wrong?



bonscott87 said:


> There are plenty of threads on this very forum from people who criticize the decisions DirecTV makes on a daily basis.


I wonder how many of them help people understand the situation better versus worse.



bonscott87 said:


> You also forget that the main reason for this new agreement is the renewal of the no sue clause until 2018. Allowing Tivo to make a new box is just a side thing and matters not to DirecTV in the least. This has been discussed to death in previous threads.


Yes, very true, and very much on the mark.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> I think people love to read whatever they want into whatever they read, rather than accepting what is actually written. Even *today* TiVo says, "This new service is expected to launch in 2010."
> 
> Expected to.
> 
> In English, that is not a commitment. Taking it as a commitment is simply misreading what is written.
> 
> Regardless, I'm waiting for it, whenever it is released. It would be enough to get me to reconsider switching providers. And I suspect that there are more potential customers who won't care about previous implications of when it would be delivered, and will just evaluate their options as they are considering them.


In Sep '08 they said it would be expected launch in the second half of 2009

Then in April '09, TiVo reported  we expect to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR for a launch to consumers as soon as possible in calendar year 2010

Then it's "expected...in 2010"&#8230; :shrug:

For the record, I don't think they have missed any "commitment" dates either...yet. However, it's getting to the point that if they announce another delay beyond 2010, I would definitely consider it "missed". That would be pushing two years beyond the announced release and would definitely qualify as missing the release date in my mind.

Further, I'm beginning to believe it's not going to happen at all. I have nothing to base this on but I suspect then next time we hear from TiVo/DirecTV about the status it will be DOA.

Now I'm curious. When does it become a missed commitment? By your reasoning it seems that as long as they say "expected" then they haven't missed anything and it's all good. Ok I realize you're not saying it's all good. :grin:

Seriously though, when would you consider it a missed commitment versus an update of when it's "expected"?

To further satisfy my curiosity, here are a couple of questions for the forum. I'd really like to see what people think about this.

Is there a point where TiVo, or any company for that matter, should be expected to provide a concrete status for the release of their products?

Or, is it ok to say they haven't missed any commitments simply because they used terms such as "likely", "expected", or "probable" for as long as it takes to deliver the product?

If TiVo announces in January 2011 that it will be released in September of 2011 and that slips to October 2011, can they reasonably say they missed their commitment date by one month instead of two years?

Hmmm, this has potential for a rather interesting discussion. 

Mike


----------



## gregjones

No contradiction here. I want TiVo to live up to their own potential. They have failed to do that since they released their very first product. We don't know how far behind it was only because it was not an important product until it was released.

TiVo has every right to exist. They also have every right to succeed or fail on their own merit. It is somewhat frustrating, though, that the company owning a number of patents regarding DVR technology is in such a non-productive state. This leads to other innovators being unable to move products forward without involving TiVo. My only direct issue with TiVo is the fact that the situation leads to elaborate workarounds to avoid patent infringement while TiVo fails to bring viable products to market making use of the patented material itself.


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> If I understand you correctly, you have already resigned to the fact that TiVo will be less and less relevant, for good or bad reasons, and that is why there is no need to blame, because it is a foregone conclusion?


No. See my reply, immediately above.



jacmyoung said:


> I think those who want to blame at least still show some level of interest in TiVo.


However, are they really understanding things better, or worse?



jacmyoung said:


> You pointed out that the standalone DVR business model has no future,


No I didn't. Please read what I wrote more closely.



jacmyoung said:


> if so TiVo should make every effort to at least show that they are using the limited resources in working day and night to reignite the DirecTiVo model.


Why is that superior, for TiVo, than all the other things that they have decided to do instead?

Like the RCN project. Like the Suddenlink project.


----------



## bicker1

Hoosier205 said:


> Hmm...I see that this thread has simply become a place for folks to bicker with Bicker1, for Bicker1 to bicker with others, and possibly for Bicker1 to bicker with...Bicker1.


The fact that people are clearly dying to discuss these issues is plainly evident.



Doug Brott said:


> we shouldn't rag on them about being late. Seriously?!


I suppose it depends on your objective. If you're just trying to vent some steam, I suppose your approach to the issues will suffice.



MicroBeta said:


> Further, I'm beginning to believe it's not going to happen at all.


And are you able to accept that that might be the best decision? See above.



MicroBeta said:


> Now I'm curious. When does it become a missed commitment? By your reasoning it seems that as long as they say "expected" then they haven't missed anything and it's all good. Ok I realize you're not saying it's all good. :grin:


Indeed. The reality is that until they take orders (practically), they still have reserved *discretion *to decide what is best to do.



MicroBeta said:


> Is there a point where TiVo, or any company for that matter, should be expected to provide a concrete status for the release of their products?


Again, after they take orders. Anything else is simply unfounded expectations.


----------



## Hoosier205

bicker1 said:


> The fact that people are clearly dying to discuss these issues is plainly evident.


I'm just sitting back and waiting for you to quote yourself, thus starting an epic argument among a party of one.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> <snip>
> And are you able to accept that that might be the best decision? See above.


Sure. If it's decided the project is dead I'll be just fine with it. AAMOF, while in the beginning I was really enthused with the idea of a new HD DirecTiVo, I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably going to stay with the HR2x DVRs. It would have to include everything I have now and much more the already announced (see the first thread in Sep '08) to make it worth it my eyes.


> _Indeed. The reality is that until they take orders (practically), they still have reserved *discretion *to decide what is best to do_
> 
> Again, after they take orders. Anything else is simply unfounded expectations.


So, taking orders is the definition of a commitment. IMHO, that's very bad business for any company.

For example, if I were a stock holder that would never fly. I would not want the first indication that the company I've invested in (btw, I don't have any TiVo stock) has determined a release date for a new product is when they start accepting orders. No one would ever believe what such a company says...it seems we may be approaching that with TiVo. It's almost expected that they will not release anything when they say they will. Gee, I wonder how their stock is doing. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW. 

Mike


----------



## gregjones

I think I'm out at this point. If TiVo pulls out a miracle and impresses most users, I will be surprised. If they deliver a product that has no more features than Series3 or HR2x, I think it will have served to provide DIRECTV a bridge relationship with TiVo until patent expiration.


----------



## bidger

bicker1 said:


> Why is that superior, for TiVo, than all the other things that they have decided to do instead?
> 
> Like the RCN project. Like the Suddenlink project.


Do either of these companies have nationwide penetration or anywhere near 18 million customers?

ETA: Now, if either or both of those projects allow TiVo exclusivity with no house DVR to compete against, and somewhere near 50% of DVR proceeds, then it would be very well worth TiVo's efforts.


----------



## joshjr

gregjones said:


> I think I'm out at this point. If TiVo pulls out a miracle and impresses most users, I will be surprised. *If they deliver a product that has no more features than Series3 or HR2x, I think it will have served to provide DIRECTV a bridge relationship with TiVo until patent expiration*.


I would agree with that. I mean who wants to pay more for the same features just because it has the TiVo name? I was so interested and have always wanted to try a TiVo and now am doubting that it will be worth my time. Waiting for so long has made me not only lose interest but also become aggitated by the fact that we can not get anyone to provide any details. I mean I signed up for the TiVo update email what 2 years ago and I have yet to receive any information. When I call TiVo they say I should be calling D* as they have no information on it. When I call D* they say they dont have any info on it either and I should call TiVo. I mean come on. Why make an announcement that you are bringing a stand alone DVR to the mix if its not going to happen for 2-4 years? At this point someone should say this is a hard date or the project is dead.


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ...And are you able to accept that that might be the best decision? See above...


Is this the point you are trying to make?


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV has done their part (long, long ago, BTW) and is now waiting on TiVo.


I think that is supposition on your part. It was only recently that a DirecTV executive mentioned sending TiVo specifications. While those specifications may have been sent long long ago, he didn't say that. It is just as possible that the said that because it was something he himself was involved much more recently. We don't know, and probably won't, but it throws your assertion that it was all done completely, long long ago into doubt. Do you have anything to back up that assertion that is more concrete?



> TiVo set the time table and muffed it. We should sit back and say .. aww shucks, TiVo is not as big as as Cisco - we shouldn't rag on them about being late. Seriously?!


Personally I think TiVo and DirecTV jointly set and revised the timetable several times. It is entirely possible that the changing marketplace, TiVo being shorthanded, requirements growth to keep pace with DTV's native developments, possibly even a platform change, and TiVo possibly abandoning the effort for a while to go salvage what they could of the Premiere all figured into the delays.

While I agree that TiVo is probably largely responsible for the delays, it is unreasonable to hold DTV fully blameless. Also, it is reasonable to point out some of the mitigating factors behind TiVo's blame, as well as those behind DTV's.

This is no reason to hold TiVo Blameless, but it is a call to be a bit more balanced.


----------



## CuriousMark

Hoosier205 said:


> I'm just sitting back and waiting for you to quote yourself, thus starting an epic argument among a party of one.


You've got a long wait then.


----------



## jacmyoung

CuriousMark said:


> I think that is supposition on your part. It was only recently that a DirecTV executive mentioned sending TiVo specifications. While those specifications may have been sent long long ago, he didn't say that. It is just as possible that the said that because it was something he himself was involved much more recently. We don't know, and probably won't, but it throws your assertion that it was all done completely, long long ago into doubt. Do you have anything to back up that assertion that is more concrete?
> 
> Personally I think TiVo and DirecTV jointly set and revised the timetable several times. It is entirely possible that the changing marketplace, TiVo being shorthanded, requirements growth to keep pace with DTV's native developments, possibly even a platform change, and TiVo possibly abandoning the effort for a while to go salvage what they could of the Premiere all figured into the delays.
> 
> While I agree that TiVo is probably largely responsible for the delays, it is unreasonable to hold DTV fully blameless. Also, it is reasonable to point out some of the mitigating factors behind TiVo's blame, as well as those behind DTV's.
> 
> This is no reason to hold TiVo Blameless, but it is a call to be a bit more balanced.


Even bicker1 is not blaming DirecTV, he seems to say TiVo might have decided to give up on this project, focusing more on some other ones with the smaller cable companies, and it might be the best decision.

While doubtful that the above can be the best option, maybe bicker1 knows something we don't. It would be great if he can elaborate why abandoning the DirecTiVo project might be a good thing for TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Do you have anything to back up that assertion that is more concrete?


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> This is no reason to hold TiVo Blameless, but it is a call to be a bit more balanced.


I'm pretty sure I've got a good handle on this one ...


----------



## gregjones

Ok, it's really simple. DIRECTV is not hurting for subscribers without TiVo. TiVo is very much hurting for subscribers without DIRECTV. Was DIRECTV supposed to stop implementing features in their own DVRs in order to make it easier for TiVo to catch up? The arguments covering TiVo are becoming less and less coherent.

DIRECTV worked with TiVo before. If they had a problem with DIRECTV, they should have avoided entering another agreement. TiVo has a history of screwing up development work. Show me historical documentation on DIRECTV not supporing a development effort with a third-party.


----------



## bonscott87

CuriousMark said:


> I think that is supposition on your part. It was only recently that a DirecTV executive mentioned sending TiVo specifications. While those specifications may have been sent long long ago, he didn't say that. It is just as possible that the said that because it was something he himself was involved much more recently. We don't know, and probably won't, but it throws your assertion that it was all done completely, long long ago into doubt. Do you have anything to back up that assertion that is more concrete?


Well, to be accurate the last investor conference call was the *first time* that anyone asked DirecTV a question about Tivo since the original announcement nearly two years ago. DirecTV has not "volunteered" any Tivo info in the meantime.

And DirecTV's response to this question was basically "Tivo has the specs, we're waiting on them to deliver".


----------



## ibmman69

Screw the HR24. I'd gladly pay for a Tivo box.


----------



## Doug Brott

ibmman69 said:


> Screw the HR24. I'd gladly pay for a Tivo box.


Too bad you can't :shrug: That's what the whole discussion is about.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> Sure. If it's decided the project is dead I'll be just fine with it.


Precisely, and indeed, there is no need to actively make that decision (at least not in any specific time-frame).



MicroBeta said:


> So, taking orders is the definition of a commitment. IMHO, that's very bad business for any company.


Do you have any proof of that generalization, other than your own personal antipathy toward it? There are myriad things that we consumers don't like, but fail to significantly factor-into our purchasing decisions to make our antipathy matter.


----------



## bicker1

bidger said:


> Do either of these companies have nationwide penetration or anywhere near 18 million customers?


Of course not, but neither do they have the ability to offer a DVR as good as the HR24.



bidger said:


> ETA: Now, if either or both of those projects allow TiVo exclusivity with no house DVR to compete against, and somewhere near 50% of DVR proceeds, then it would be very well worth TiVo's efforts.


In both cases, I believe, the TiVo became/will become the only DVR that the company is acquiring (going forward) for deployment into the field as leased units. (They're not trashing their _pre-existing _inventory, of course.)


----------



## bicker1

CuriousMark said:


> While I agree that TiVo is probably largely responsible for the delays, it is unreasonable to hold DTV fully blameless.


Again, that's only if there is any reasonable basis for placing "blame", in the first place.



jacmyoung said:


> Even bicker1 is not blaming DirecTV, he seems to say TiVo might have decided to give up on this project, focusing more on some other ones with the smaller cable companies, and it might be the best decision.


I didn't speculate that TiVo may have "given up" on the project, but rather that they simply have it at a lower priority than some of the folks in this thread do, for the reasons I've outlined and/or probably others we have no awareness of nor means of gaining such awareness.



jacmyoung said:


> It would be great if he can elaborate why abandoning the DirecTiVo project might be a good thing for TiVo.


Without the same kind of access to their inside information that I had with hundreds of other companies during my career, I can only speculate. And I already did point out two very obvious higher priorities that have come to light. Regardless, the point is that such higher priorities can indeed exist, and that's the most reasonable assumption that we can make.



bonscott87 said:


> Well, to be accurate the last investor conference call was the *first time* that anyone asked DirecTV a question about Tivo since the original announcement nearly two years ago.


Which is perhaps the most compelling indicator that TiVo has properly prioritized the DirecTiVo very low on their work list.


----------



## bidger

bicker1 said:


> Of course not, but neither do they have the ability to offer a DVR as good as the HR24.


My experience with cable DVRs is limited, but enough to know that if I ever did go back to cable, TiVo would have to be in the equation. Although I do hear good things about the new Cisco box TWC is deploying.



bicker1 said:


> In both cases, I believe, the TiVo became/will become the only DVR that the company is acquiring (going forward) for deployment into the field as leased units. (They're not trashing their _pre-existing _inventory, of course.)


Then, yes, I could understand how those projects would be a priority. They've never been offered exclusivity before, they had to compete with UltimateTV @ DirecTV and Comcast still offers an alternate DVR, so I can see why they'd jump all over this.


----------



## bicker1

I dug out the press releases for some more detail.

RCN has declared that the TiVo Premiere is its "primary DVR platform" for 2010. It is not the only DVR that they offer, but they have placed no new orders for any other DVR since TiVo started delivering units. Also, RCN only charges a $2 per month premium for the TiVo, and they paint a very compelling picture favoring the TiVo on their website.

Suddenlink calls TiVo "a significant part of our future plans" but they won't "abandon" their embedded base of equipment either. TiVo will also be providing STBs for Suddenlink, in addition to DVRs.


----------



## joshjr

bicker1 said:


> Do you have any proof of that generalization, other than your own personal antipathy toward it? There are myriad things that we consumers don't like, but fail to significantly factor-into our purchasing decisions to make our antipathy matter.


Do you have any proof to the contrary? You seem to have such an opinion and want to discredit everyone elses.


----------



## bidger

bicker1 said:


> ...they paint a very compelling picture favoring the TiVo on their website.


Uh...hey RCN, what's the "Direct TiVo Premiere"?


----------



## tonyd79

bidger said:


> Uh...hey RCN, what's the "Direct TiVo Premiere"?


Bad wording. I think they mean Tivo Premiere "direct" from Tivo.


----------



## Steve

bidger said:


> My experience with cable DVRs is limited, but enough to know that if I ever did go back to cable, TiVo would have to be in the equation. Although I do hear good things about the new Cisco box TWC is deploying [...]


Speaking of the Cisco box, I missed the May announcement below. I'm guessing it's another blow to TiVo, given they were supposed to be rolling out s/w for Cox's Motorola DVR's?

_"Cisco announced today it has teamed with Cox Communications to deliver the new Cox "Plus Package," featuring high-definition Whole Home digital video recorder (DVR) service with Cisco Explorer® next-generation set-top boxes. The Cox Plus Package also includes Cox's new Trio tru2way® interactive program guide and an expanded lineup of HD channels [*...*]"_


----------



## bicker1

That was definitely a blow for TiVo. ITA.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Precisely, and indeed, there is no need to actively make that decision (at least not in any specific time-frame).
> 
> Do you have any proof of that generalization, other than your own personal antipathy toward it? There are myriad things that we consumers don't like, but fail to significantly factor-into our purchasing decisions to make our antipathy matter.


No "proof", thus the reason I said it was my opinion and didn't put it forth as fact. I have no personal aversion toward it but rather it seems to make logical sense to me. 

It follows that taking orders shows firm release date, a commitment, I'll give you that. However, I believe it should be the last step in conveying to public something is being released. Before a company is actually taking orders, the stockholders and buying public should already know what's being released and when...that is if I understood anything from my economics classes (engineer, not economist :grin.

You're saying they haven't missed a commitment and you are correct. They have, however, missed a couple of _projected_ releases and are in danger of missing their latest. Although one could argue that Dec 31st would constitute "as soon as possible in 2010". :sure:

BTW, IIUC we'll have the choice of TiVo or DirecTV firmware on existing hardware, so I'm not sure there's anything to take pre-orders for per-se. :scratchin

As for there being no need to "actively make [a] decision", I guess that depends on your perspective in the situation; whether you're a general consumer or a stockholder/investor. I'll bet those two groups would have completely different opinions on that matter...I'm just sayin' 

Mike


----------



## bicker1

joshjr said:


> Do you have any proof to the contrary?


Sure, as much as anyone could, given my long career, and the specific experiences that career afforded me. However, that's irrelevant. MicroBeta made an assertion of fact. I highlighted how that assertion was unsubstantiated. As it is, without that substantiation, there is no reason to believe that companies making prioritization decisions even after announcing strategic directions adversely impacts long-term profitability, and every reason to believe that it has no significant impact. It is really important to keep in mind just how short the attention span is for the typical American consumer. We are *all* affected by that general case, even if that is not something that drives our own personal purchasing decisions.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bicker1 said:


> Sure, as much as anyone could, given my long career, and the specific experiences that career afforded me. However, that's irrelevant. MicroBeta made an assertion of fact. I highlighted how that assertion was unsubstantiated. As it is, without that substantiation, there is no reason to believe that companies making prioritization decisions even after announcing strategic directions adversely impacts long-term profitability, and every reason to believe that it has no significant impact. It is really important to keep in mind just how short the attention span is for the typical American consumer. We are *all* affected by that general case, even if that is not something that drives our own personal purchasing decisions.


So in other words....no proof.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> No "proof", thus the reason I said it was my opinion.


Yup, that's cool.



MicroBeta said:


> I have no person aversion toward it but rather it seems to make logical sense to me.


In my opinion, it doesn't make logical sense, for the reason I mentioned in the message, above, and other reasons as well. Because folks are getting overly-defensive . . . Don't take that to mean that you don't have a right to have that opinion. You surely can. I'm just saying that I believe you're wrong, and that is why companies do what they do, because they rely on the reality rather than the explanations that perhaps best support a consumerist perspective.



MicroBeta said:


> It follows that taking orders shows firm release date, a commitment, I'll give you that. However, I believe it should be the last step in conveying to public something is being released. Before a company is actually taking orders, the stockholders and buying public should already know what's being released and when...that is if I understood anything from my economics classes (engineer, not economist :grin.


Yeah, but there is a difference between marketing for a few weeks or months in anticipation of a planned release, and making a pledge years in advance that they shall release something years later.



MicroBeta said:


> You're saying they haven't missed a commitment and you are correct. They have, however, missed a couple of _projected_ releases and are in danger of missing their latest.


Which could be the best decision for them and/or practically insignificant in the long-run. That's all I'm saying. No reason for anyone to be upset about that. (And not saying that you are upset about it.)



MicroBeta said:


> As for there being no need to "actively make [a] decision", I guess that depends on your perspective in the situation; whether you're a general consumer or a stockholder/investor. I'll bet those two groups would have completely different opinions on that matter...I'm just sayin'


Abso-friggen-lutely. And in the end, consumers matter to a for-profit business mainly because they affect long-term profitability, but that means that how they matter is directly related to how they affect long-term profitability. A bunch of consumers who were never going to pay a fair price for what a supplier was going to offer matter not one bit to that company. Indeed, we've even seen a number of cases recently where companies have determined that even some of the customers that are paying a fair price for what they're offering aren't worth keeping as customers, preferring to "dump" these low-margin customers on their competitors, to free up their resources to better service high-margin customers. These realities are definitely things that general consumers would typically prefer to overlook, but they're going to have impact on general consumers regardless.


----------



## bicker1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So in other words....no proof.


Correct, MicroBeta had no proof for what he asserted.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think we can take it as a given that no one has proof of future events, given the laws of physics and causality as we know them. Please move on, politely.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> <snip> MicroBeta made an assertion of fact. <snip>


I think you misunderstood. I clearly stated that it being "bad business for any company" was my opinion.



MicroBeta said:


> <snip>
> *IMHO*, that's very bad business for any company.
> <snip>


I try not to put forth things as fact that I don't know to be fact. 

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ... Regardless, the point is that such higher priorities can indeed exist, and that's the most reasonable assumption that we can make.
> 
> Which is perhaps the most compelling indicator that TiVo has properly prioritized the DirecTiVo very low on their work list.


I think you have proven that, it is not an assumption but a fact, the question is why did you say we should accept that putting the DirecTiVo on a much lower priority might be the best decision for TiVo?

It is a very interesting point that the delay of DirecTiVo is not due to TiVo's inability, but a result of some strategic decision by TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 I think you've generated one of the better straw man arguments I've seen in a while ..

Let's fresh the history a bit ...

The debate was over whether or not TiVo missed a delivery date .. Well, actually it was something that everyone accepted as fact until you entered the discussion.

Then you started to simply ignore the facts, I presume because the missed "dates" were time frames rather than actual dates, a nice try, but the argument is still a fallacy as TiVo missed the whole time frame. Pick any date you wish in that time frame .. TiVo still missed it. You fallacy is ignoring that fact.

Ah, then enter the straw man - "It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong." .. Uh, you do realize that folks weren't patting themselves on the back and .. oh yeah .. What does this argument have to do with the main point of missed dates anyway? :scratchin

Then a litany (to use your phrasing) of banter back and forth about "blame" not being necessary and "proof" not visible .. Heck, you even state that you have proof of your own but don't feel it important to share. So your getting of proof is important but giving of proof is uneeded .. Oh, what were we talking about again.

Oh yeah, that's right .. You've used the straw man argument to prove that blame is unnecessary ergo there are no target dates missed. It's a flawed argument, but kudos to you as it was a very well constructed straw man argument.

The facts have not changed .. bonscott laid them out for you here



> Well, when they explicitly tell their investors that it will be released end of 2009, I'd call that a pretty specific date.
> Then early 2010.
> Then again 2nd half 2010.
> And now late 2010/early 2011.
> 
> All told to investors and at each investor meeting it gets pushed back it seems.
> 
> So yes, they have given explicit dates to the investors, and you certainly don't want to steer them wrong.


TiVo is late on this.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> bicker1 I think you've generated one of the better straw man arguments I've seen in a while ..
> 
> Let's fresh the history a bit ...
> 
> The debate was over whether or not TiVo missed a delivery date .. Well, actually it was something that everyone accepted as fact until you entered the discussion.
> 
> Then you started to simply ignore the facts, I presume because the missed "dates" were time frames rather than actual dates, a nice try, but the argument is still a fallacy as TiVo missed the whole time frame. Pick any date you wish in that time frame .. TiVo still missed it. You fallacy is ignoring that fact.
> 
> Ah, then enter the straw man - "It has been interesting reading the continuing self-congratulatory litany of band-wagoneering from people seemingly trying to convince themselves that because they aren't happy with how things are, then clearly someone else did something wrong." .. Uh, you do realize that folks weren't patting themselves on the back and .. oh yeah .. What does this argument have to do with the main point of missed dates anyway? :scratchin
> 
> Then a litany (to use your phrasing) of banter back and forth about "blame" not being necessary and "proof" not visible .. Heck, you even state that you have proof of your own but don't feel it important to share. So your getting of proof is important but giving of proof is uneeded .. Oh, what were we talking about again.
> 
> Oh yeah, that's right .. You've used the straw man argument to prove that blame is unnecessary ergo there are no target dates missed. It's a flawed argument, but kudos to you as it was a very well constructed straw man argument.
> 
> The facts have not changed .. bonscott laid them out for you here
> 
> *TiVo is late on this*.


Seems awfully easy to understand.


----------



## CuriousMark

bonscott87 said:


> Well, to be accurate the last investor conference call was the *first time* that anyone asked DirecTV a question about Tivo since the original announcement nearly two years ago. DirecTV has not "volunteered" any Tivo info in the meantime.
> 
> And DirecTV's response to this question was basically "Tivo has the specs, we're waiting on them to deliver".


Yup, he actually mentioned specs of his own free will, it was not part of the question that was asked. Tomayto, tomahto, we interpret as we each desire. My point being that it is enough to throw the long, long ago assertion into some doubt for me. You can accuse me of being just as biased as you are, that would be fair.

I do remember the installer I dealt with last spring telling me the new TiVo box they had in their shop didn't work right for playing the MPEG-4 HD shows and that it was sent back to TiVo. I am not sure I believed him though. He told me TiVo was owned by Mitsubishi in the same breath. It does sound like alpha level units might have been in work then though.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> Yup, he actually mentioned specs of his own free will, it was not part of the question that was asked. Tomayto, tomahto, we interpret as we each desire. My point being that it is enough to throw the long, long ago assertion into some doubt for me. You can accuse me of being just as biased as you are, that would be fair.


You don't have to believe me .. but ..



> I do remember the installer I dealt with last spring telling me the new TiVo box they had in their shop didn't work right for playing the MPEG-4 HD shows and that it was sent back to TiVo. I am not sure I believed him though. He told me TiVo was owned by Mitsubishi in the same breath. It does sound like alpha level units might have been in work then though.


You're believing an installer you dealt with last spring over me? And one that thought TiVo is owned by Mitsubishi? For shame :nono2: :grin:

The TiVo he was referring two I'm sure was the HR10-250 which everyone is aware of. It's the older HD DIRECTiVo and now only supports HD over-the-air plus MPEG-2 HD from DIRECTV sats.

Seriously though, TiVo has had this in their court for a long time .. certainly greater than 1 year as of today. You'll just have to take my word for it, though ....


----------



## ATARI

CuriousMark said:


> I do remember the installer I dealt with last spring telling me the new TiVo box they had in their shop didn't work right for playing the MPEG-4 HD shows and that it was sent back to TiVo. I am not sure I believed him though. He told me TiVo was owned by Mitsubishi in the same breath. It does sound like alpha level units might have been in work then though.


Sounds more like the old DirecTiVo to me.

He was confused about ownership, so perhaps he was confused about new/old TiVo?


----------



## ATARI

General question for anyone here who may know the answer:
In the months leading up to the release of the HR10-250, did anybody leak that they had one and were testing it?
And how many months before the general release was the leak?

The lack of any word at all of Beta in the wild makes me think a new HD DirecTiVo must be at least 6 months out.

But, TiVo is still telling consumers 2010: here


----------



## CuriousMark

Doug Brott said:


> The TiVo he was referring two I'm sure was the HR10-250 which everyone is aware of. It's the older HD DIRECTiVo and now only supports HD over-the-air plus MPEG-2 HD from DIRECTV sats.


Yup, that is very likely the case.

And I do believe you more than him, but I thought it would be fun to throw that out.:grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Don't underestimate the effect of the dismal, delayed, and problem-ridden delivery of the Comcast "new Tivo" either...


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> But, TiVo is still telling consumers 2010: here


Up until 2-3 weeks back I believed this too ... I suppose there is a sliver of hope left, but I've moved my money to 2011 ...


----------



## bonscott87

ATARI said:


> General question for anyone here who may know the answer:
> In the months leading up to the release of the HR10-250, did anybody leak that they had one and were testing it?
> And how many months before the general release was the leak?
> 
> The lack of any word at all of Beta in the wild makes me think a new HD DirecTiVo must be at least 6 months out.
> 
> But, TiVo is still telling consumers 2010: here


It's been a long time but I think people were talking about the beta on various forums months before release. I think posts were squashed pretty quickly on the Tivo Community but places like Deal Database (that was the old hack site I think) has discussions about it. I seem to remember posts on the now defunct DBS Forums site about the beta units as well.

I am pretty certain there was quite a bit of info in terms of specs and price at least 6 months before release (which was delayed as well if I remember) and it was shown at CES as well. So far on this new box we have notta, not even a peep in any site or blog and nothing has been shown or even talked about at CES yet.

My prediction: We see nothing at CES 2011 and it's dead.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> My prediction: We see nothing at CES 2011 and it's dead.


If so.....I'll let ya know firsthand from on the floor there....


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> Up until 2-3 weeks back I believed this too ... I suppose there is a sliver of hope left, but I've moved my money to 2011 ...


I don't believe it, I'm just posting the official line.

I think the reality is going to be Spring 2011.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ATARI said:


> I *don't *believe it, I'm just posting the official line.
> 
> *I think the reality is going to be Spring 2011*.


Then I guess you really *do* believe it after all...


----------



## Hoosier205

I think the reality is 2011 and it will be a dud.


----------



## PkDog

I've worked on a lot of engineering projects and, guess what, many of them were late. The overwhelming reason for the lateness of projects that I have worked on is changing requirements in midstream. I've seen it time and time again.

Let us suppose that Dtv changed the requirements for the new DirecTivo once or more times during the course of this development. Since we are suppositioning, let's assume that they threw some more money to Tivo along with the requirements changes to cover the additional time it would take Tivo to complete the project. Tivo would have been happy to take the additional money and work longer on this project, and not complain; particularly if they agreed that the changes would result in a better product.

Since I don't have any inside knowledge, I don't know if this supposition could possibly be true or not. But it is another explanation for what has been happening.


----------



## jacmyoung

Bicker1 did not only throw out a straw man, he did make a valid point which was supported by facts, not overwhelming evidence but valid nevertheless.

TiVo did manage to roll out its Premier DVR for RCN, in a very short time since their partnership agreement. The RCN CEO’s statement indicated the rollout was successful. Here is substantial evidence that TiVo can make it work, at least if it is more or less a standalone DVR arrangement.

Such evidence lands credit to Bicker1’s speculation that TiVo might have strategically placed the new DirecTiVo project very low on its priority list. It is not a fact, rather a speculation with substantial evidence for support.

The question I have is of course, why does he think this strategy might be the best decision for TiVo?


----------



## jacmyoung

PkDog said:


> I've worked on a lot of engineering projects and, guess what, many of them were late. The overwhelming reason for the lateness of projects that I have worked on is changing requirements in midstream. I've seen it time and time again.
> 
> Let us suppose that Dtv changed the requirements for the new DirecTivo once or more times during the course of this development. Since we are suppositioning, let's assume that they threw some more money to Tivo along with the requirements changes to cover the additional time it would take Tivo to complete the project. Tivo would have been happy to take the additional money and work longer on this project, and not complain; particularly if they agreed that the changes would result in a better product.
> 
> Since I don't have any inside knowledge, I don't know if this supposition could possibly be true or not. But it is another explanation for what has been happening.


This is another reasonable speculation, the exception is that we know whatever the delay will not result in a better DVR, rather it will not be worse than DirecTV's own new DVRs. In other words, TiVo cannot be happy with the delay, they most certainly would have referred no delay.


----------



## gregjones

jacmyoung said:


> TiVo did manage to roll out its Premier DVR for RCN, in a very short time since their partnership agreement. The RCN CEO's statement indicated the rollout was successful. Here is substantial evidence that TiVo can make it work, at least if it is more or less a standalone DVR arrangement.


Was the "rollout" a matter of giving them branded off-the-shelf products, though? I'm not familiar with that particular deal but it sounds as if TiVo just delivered an existing product to a customer for distribution.


----------



## gregjones

jacmyoung said:


> This is another reasonable speculation, the exception is that we know whatever the delay will not result in a better DVR, rather it will not be worse than DirecTV's own new DVRs. In other words, TiVo cannot be happy with the delay, they most certainly would have referred no delay.


Subjectivity aside, how can you assume that the new TiVo will be better or worse than the current HR2x series? Even using units leased as the most objective way to judge it, there is not enough information to make that supposition whatsoever.


----------



## gregjones

PkDog said:


> ...The overwhelming reason for the lateness of projects that I have worked on is changing requirements in midstream. I've seen it time and time again.
> 
> Let us suppose that Dtv changed the requirements for the new DirecTivo once or more times during the course of this development...


This seems to put much more responsibility for this new product in DIRECTV's hands than has been previously attributed. Working for the last 17 years in software design and development, I am well aware of the impact of changes in requirements. The leap to which I do not agree is the supposition that the changes originated at DIRECTV.

Yes, changes lead to delays. We can't point to changes causing these delays (no indications of this whatsoever), though. Furthermore, we cannot conclude that the possible changes which potentially contributed to the very real delays can be attributed to the hardware provider. Perhaps TiVo took so long that their design kept coming up short next to the HR2x, which continued to add features. This would not be a failure on DIRECTV's part, but on TiVo's. Unless of course DIRECTV was supposed to stop making their product better until the TiVo was released.

Re-read the releases. DIRECTV provides the platform. TiVo provides the software. TiVo pays for the development. DIRECTV pays licensing for the TiVo-owned patents in some form through increased DVR fees for TiVo units. In nearly every situation, the group paying for development is the primary driver of requirements. These are TiVo developers working on TiVo's dime. This is not the same situation as the HR2x series where a manufacturer is given specs for the builds and DIRECTV builds the boxes. You cannot assume the same level of control on DIRECTV's part. If they wanted that kind of control, they'd have put their money into it.

This looks more and more like an apeasement for TiVo to keep DIRECTV on good terms with them until the expiration of the patents. It would also provide contrast to the litigious relationship between Dish and TiVo.


----------



## tonyd79

PkDog said:


> I've worked on a lot of engineering projects and, guess what, many of them were late. The overwhelming reason for the lateness of projects that I have worked on is changing requirements in midstream. I've seen it time and time again.
> 
> Let us suppose that Dtv changed the requirements for the new DirecTivo once or more times during the course of this development. Since we are suppositioning, let's assume that they threw some more money to Tivo along with the requirements changes to cover the additional time it would take Tivo to complete the project. Tivo would have been happy to take the additional money and work longer on this project, and not complain; particularly if they agreed that the changes would result in a better product.
> 
> Since I don't have any inside knowledge, I don't know if this supposition could possibly be true or not. But it is another explanation for what has been happening.


I don't disagree with specs changing. Let's see. Since they announced that Tivo was coming back, DirecTV has introduced MRV and several other functions and have moved forward on hardware design.

I will lay it back at Tivo. Take too long and the world changes. You cannot build to 2008 specs in 2010.


----------



## ATARI

tonyd79 said:


> I don't disagree with specs changing. Let's see. Since they announced that Tivo was coming back, DirecTV has introduced MRV and several other functions and have moved forward on hardware design.
> 
> I will lay it back at Tivo. Take too long and the world changes. You cannot build to 2008 specs in 2010.


You could, but then it would be a guaranteed DOA dud.


----------



## DarinC

ATARI said:


> TiVo is still telling consumers 2010: here


Well, fwiw, so is DirecTV.


----------



## Groundhog45

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If so.....I'll let ya know firsthand from on the floor there....


I'm waiting for your report.


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> I think you have proven that, it is not an assumption but a fact, the question is why did you say we should accept that putting the DirecTiVo on a much lower priority might be the best decision for TiVo?


I didn't say you should accept it; I said you should accept the possibility of it.



jacmyoung said:


> It is a very interesting point that the delay of DirecTiVo is not due to TiVo's inability, but a result of some strategic decision by TiVo.


And there is no one here who is in a position to know which is the case, so assuming one over the other has no merit, and indeed just distorts understanding, rather the clarifies it.



Doug Brott said:


> bicker1 I think you've generated one of the better straw man arguments I've seen in a while ..


It isn't a Straw Man. It is actually the exact opposite: Showing the Straw Man aspect of much of the "popular" sentiment. Just because it is popular to latch on to a specific disparaging appraisal doesn't make it accurate or helpful.



Doug Brott said:


> Then you started to simply ignore the facts, I presume because the missed "dates" were time frames rather than actual dates, a nice try, but the argument is still a fallacy as TiVo missed the whole time frame.


No I didn't ignore the facts. The facts are that they didn't make a commitment. They set a target. It is unreasonable to hold them to something they didn't commit to.



Doug Brott said:


> What does this argument have to do with the main point of missed dates anyway? :scratchin


I'm having trouble determining what portions of your comments are rhetorical and which are inquiries. Regardless, let's short-circuit this: What's wrong with just saying, "Yup, they really aren't obligated, and yup they may have been making the best decisions for themselves given their resources and the environment"? Why the seemingly visceral need to castigate? How does doing so actually help folks interested in the idea of having a TiVo UI on a DirecTV-compatible DVR?

Of course, that would have made for a much shorter discussion.


----------



## Hoosier205

...and around and around we go.


----------



## bicker1

gregjones said:


> Was the "rollout" a matter of giving them branded off-the-shelf products, though? I'm not familiar with that particular deal but it sounds as if TiVo just delivered an existing product to a customer for distribution.


Nope. It is integrated with the provider's VOD system. They're also working on making it compatible with a generic VOD infrastructure.


----------



## bicker1

Hoosier205 said:


> ...and around and around we go.


Only if folks want to reply.


----------



## gregjones

DarinC said:


> Well, fwiw, so is DirecTV.


Well, they have to. Their partner keeps saying 2010, so they really don't have the option to contradict their "valued partner." And since DIRECTV isn't driving the development, it's really no skin off their nose if it's missed.


----------



## gregjones

bicker1 said:


> Nope. It is integrated with the provider's VOD system. They're also working on making it compatible with a generic VOD infrastructure.


And as long as they followed the example of any of the pre-existing VOD systems that the TiVo supported prior to that, it is still a non-issue.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> I'm having trouble determining what portions of your comments are rhetorical and which are inquiries. Regardless, let's short-circuit this: What's wrong with just saying, "Yup, they really aren't obligated, and yup they may have been making the best decisions for themselves given their resources and the environment"? Why the seemingly visceral need to castigate? How does doing so actually help folks interested in the idea of having a TiVo UI on a DirecTV-compatible DVR?


There is no helping anying interested in the idea of having a TiVo UI on a DIRECTV-compatible DVR. It doesn't exist today. The initial announcement basically said it'd be out in 1 year .. Here is the actual statement:

TiVo.com


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.


Now you and I can disagree on "commitment" here. Clearly TiVo expected it by December 31, 2009 (They say so right there in their press release). I personally said .. OK, so they can slip 90 days (March 31, 2010) and I'll still call it good. In fact, that was my original prediction for availability yet that too has come and gone. So today July 22, 2010 the product is late, commitment or not.

The most recent TiVo earnings call (4/30/2010):


> In terms of our relationship with DIRECTV, aggressive development activity continues and we expect the launch of that product by the end of the year.


There's that word "expect" again. Clearly a product is not "released" until it is actually released and if you want to continue saying commitment, then go for it. It doesn't mean TiVo has done things any faster nor changed the expectations of this group. Everyone here already knew that it's difficult to actually believe what TiVo has to say to the world. They're always wrong about setting expectations. I'm just calling them out on that failure.

In March, 2010, Engadget reported this


> ... Tom Rogers tell Light Reading that "Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo."[/URL]
> 
> What?! .. More expectations lowered. Remember from the original announcement: "The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services"
> 
> So initial expectations set 2 years ago (shy by 45 days) said basically that the new TiVo is EXPECTED within 18 months and would support the latest features from both TiVo and DIRECTV.
> 
> You go on to ask "How does doing so actually help folks interested in the idea of having a TiVo UI on a DirecTV-compatible DVR?" So I am simply responding by saying ..
> 
> TiVo is late and the features will be more like the classic DIRECTV TiVo than the new stuff.
> 
> I'm trying to set a realistic expectations as TiVo clearly hasn't done that. I still think that this product will come to fruition .. It's got a ways to go though and you watch - next earnings call will push it out (from then) another 6 months .. history will be repeating itself yet again.
> 
> TiVo keeps moving the target, so by your definition, they haven't committed to anything .. Sure, fine, whatever .. it does nothing to help folks that want HD and a TiVo other than to set the expectation that things are going to happen sooner (much sooner) than reality. Somehow you make it sound like that's a good thing to do to consumers. I disagree.


----------



## DarinC

gregjones said:


> Well, they have to. Their partner keeps saying 2010, so they really don't have the option to contradict their "valued partner." And since DIRECTV isn't driving the development, it's really no skin off their nose if it's missed.


Not necessarily. They could just not give a date (they're good at that). I wouldn't say it's _no _skin off their nose if a date they provide is missed... most DirecTV customers consider DirecTV to be their vendor, not Tivo. Just like the Comcast Tivo is a different beast, as is the standalone Tivo. And it's clear from this thread that most outside of TiVo and DirecTV _really _knows the level of interaction between the two during development, and how much (if any) responsibility DirecTV may share for any delays.

I'm not saying the statement on their site makes the date any more real. Just that that's what they're saying.


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> In March, 2010, Engadget reported this
> 
> 
> 
> ... Tom Rogers tell Light Reading that "Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo."[/URL]
> 
> 
> 
> What?! .. More expectations lowered. Remember from the original announcement: "The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services". ... TiVo is late and the features will be more like the classic DIRECTV TiVo than the new stuff.
Click to expand...

I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff I've missed, and I'm probably misinterpreting or just seeing it out of context with your quote vs. reading the actual article. But just based on what I see here, I don't interpret that as suggesting that they will be missing _features_. "Look and feel" to me sounds like UI. You can have the same features with completely different interfaces. Personally, I thought preference for the TiVo interface was a part of what many people wanting a TiVo are looking for.

EDIT: ok, now that I've read that piece, I see the issue is the difference betwen the old and new TiVo interface. That still doesn't necessarily mean they'll be missing features, does it? Having not seen anything BUT the old interface, maybe I'm missing the significance.


----------



## jacmyoung

gregjones said:


> Subjectivity aside, how can you assume that the new TiVo will be better or worse than the current HR2x series? Even using units leased as the most objective way to judge it, there is not enough information to make that supposition whatsoever.


That is why it is an assumption. One can make any assumption, how much credit you give it is entirely your call. If an assmuption has sufficient support, it has more credibility.

My assumption is based on the logic that DirecTV may not want a supposed new DirrecTiVo to be more advanced than its own brand of new DVRs.

You don't have to agree


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> I didn't say you should accept it; I said you should accept the possibility of it...


Don't avoid the question, why did you speculate that TiVo putting the new DirecTiVo on a much lower priority could be the best decision for TiVo. You made such assertion, I assume it has some logic for support.

If you refuse to answer the question, I can assume that you just throw out anything you like to say as a counter point, for the sake of injecting a counter point, whether it makes sense or not, if so, it is called straw man argument as Doug had pointed out.

The point you do not like is a point that many here have evidence for support, i.e. who is to blame for the delay. Whether you agree or not, such point has ample facts for support. You had made a new point in counter, but have so far refused to back it up with any logic or support.

*But even if we accept your assertion* that the delay could be the result of TiVo's possible best decision to place the new DirecTiVo at a much lower priority, that still in no way disputes the point made here, that TiVo is to be blamed for the delay, from the standpoint of the folks who are waiting for the new DirecTiVo, but getting delay after delay.


----------



## wingrider01

bicker1 said:


> No I didn't ignore the facts. The facts are that they didn't make a commitment. They set a target. It is unreasonable to hold them to something they didn't commit to.


this does not make any sense, if my people set a target date for something and pass it on to me that IS a commitment, if they do not hit it they had better be a logical validated reason why not or at least the manager of the project will be on the goverment dole faster then the life expectence of a ice cube in a blast furnance, they miss a second the whole development team could end up in the same location

setting a target date = a commitment


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> this does not make any sense, if my people set a target date for something and pass it on to me that IS a commitment, if they do not hit it they had better be a logical validated reason why not or at least the manager of the project will be on the goverment dole faster then the life expectence of a ice cube in a blast furnance, they miss a second the whole development team could end up in the same location
> 
> setting a *target date = a commitment*


Rest assured - any project with multiple millions of magnitude like this one had not only a target date, but language in it pertaining to delays, penalties, etc.


----------



## bicker1

gregjones said:


> And as long as they followed the example of any of the pre-existing VOD systems that the TiVo supported prior to that, it is still a non-issue.


Of course those are two separate things, *each* having progenitors that needed to be "followed".


----------



## bicker1

Doug Brott said:


> ... There's that word "expect" again. Clearly a product is not "released" until it is actually released and if you want to continue saying commitment, then go for it. It doesn't mean TiVo has done things any faster nor changed the expectations of this group.


Given that they've made the best decisions regarding resource allocation and prioritization for their business (and you cannot say that they have not), think about what would be TiVo's best approach with regard to the "expectations of this group". First question would be how big this group is, meaning how many people are actually following this issue so closely that it even registers with them that the DirecTiVo isn't available. Probably pretty small, but even it the group is of significant size, would it be better to essentially deliver the message that this group is not important enough to warrant a release sooner? Would it be better to tell this group to just go away and go forward assuming that there never will be a DirecTiVo? One of those messages may be better for consumers, but stringing us all along is very possibly better for TiVo. While some of us will get "fed up" with the delay, the fact that TiVo isn't actively telling us to pound sand means several of us may still be left waiting, when the DirecTiVo reaches the top of the priority list.

Yes, yes, it is speculation. So are the assertions to the contrary.



Doug Brott said:


> Everyone here already knew that it's difficult to actually believe what TiVo has to say to the world.


I'm here, and so please don't speak for me. I take TiVo at is word. The difference is that I actually take TiVo at their word, and their word has not included any commitment. When they commit, then I'll have a context with regard to believe what they have to say. And I've been a TiVo subscriber for a decade, so I've had lots of opportunity to see TiVo and how good its word is. When we don't read things into what they say, they are good to their word.



Doug Brott said:


> What?! .. More expectations lowered.


Here's another example: They never said that the DirecTiVo would be based on the Premiere UI. Never. At the very start of the effort, it was clear that the DirecTiVo would be build on the Series 3 platform. They never said anything that you could interpret as that having changed. Instead, you created an expectation yourself, stemming from their release of the TiVo Premiere. But you did that expectation-setting. TiVo didn't do that.

Let's not belabor the point any further. In a nutshell, consumers who foster their own expectations without relying on the actual commitments made by their suppliers are setting themselves (and anyone who would believe them) up for disappointment and disaffection. You can claim that those expectations are justifiable somehow; I disagree, but more importantly, it doesn't matter: You way leads to more disappointment; mine doesn't. Choose your preference.



Doug Brott said:


> Somehow you make it sound like that's a good thing to do to consumers. I disagree.


Avoiding disappointment is good for consumers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bicker1 said:


> Avoiding disappointment is good for consumers.


Agree.

Unfortunately between the Comcast Tivo unit delays (and issues), and now DirecTV delivery delays....that's a lesson Tivo has not apparently learned yet.


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> You made such assertion, I assume it has some logic for support.


I didn't say you should accept it; I said you should accept the possibility of it... Don't force me to defend your corruption of what I said. I made the points I made - I didn't make points that are oh-so-conveniently easier to argue against. 



jacmyoung said:


> If you refuse to answer the question, I can assume that you just throw out anything you like to say as a counter point, for the sake of injecting a counter point, whether it makes sense or not, if so, it is called straw man argument as Doug had pointed out.


Incorrect. Go back to what I replied to. It was not supported any better than my counter-assertion. By *your* definition, *it* was a "straw man argument". It works both ways. One perspective isn't better because it is more popular. Indeed, as I pointed out above, it could be worse. Our best approach is to set our expectations as consumers to that which is most soundly justified, i.e., most likely to be satisfied, not that which feeds our passion most, given how much more likely such expectations will remain unsatisfied.


----------



## bicker1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unfortunately between the Comcast Tivo unit delays (and issues), and now DirecTV delivery delays....that's a lesson Tivo has not apparently learned yet.


You say that as if they could wave a magic wand and make all their challenges vanish into thin air. Your logic would essentially mean that companies should keep everything secret until they are positive that they will be able to release at a specific time, with a specific level of quality. That's utterly unreasonable, not only for logistical reasons, but also because public companies are forced to make disclosures regardless of what is best. And I still don't see how such an unfounded and categorically prickly perspective *serves* consumers. How is anything better because everything around someone seems like crap, because that person decided to expect everything to be better than it was promised to be?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Given that they've made the best decisions regarding resource allocation and prioritization for their business (and you cannot say that they have not), think about what would be TiVo's best approach with regard to the "expectations of this group". <snip>


 By the same token, you cannot say they have made the best decisions. Were you there, or did you talk to the group that made that decision? No you weren't and no you didn't. It's just a baseless assumption on your part that you're putting forth as an unquestionable fact; while at the same time pointing out that no one can say otherwise thus cutting of any reasonable response and not actually refuting the argument presented...which is, BTW, a textbook Straw Man Argument, well played. :grin:

The fact is, while I can't say what decisions were best for the company, neither can you. That pretty much makes any factual argument built on that premise completely baseless.

You have an opinion, which is completely valid and worth discussing. However, it certainly does not rise to the level of undisputable fact. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bicker1 said:


> You say that as if they could wave a magic wand and make all their challenges vanish into thin air. Your logic would essentially mean that companies should keep everything secret until they are positive that they will be able to release at a specific time, with a specific level of quality. That's utterly unreasonable, not only for logistical reasons, but also because public companies are forced to make disclosures regardless of what is best. And I still don't see how such an unfounded and categorically prickly perspective *serves* consumers. How is anything better because everything around someone seems like crap, because that person decided to expect everything to be better than it was promised to be?


Anyone who runs a significant project of the magnitude of the new Tivo unit (and the Fortune 500 company I work for does them routinely) knows that projects indeed get "adjusted" during the span of the "plan".

That said, best practices and change control procedures manage delays. For that reason, having a project take 1-2 years longer than planned, when the original timeline was about 2 years to start with...demonstrates that it is laden with problems in project management.

The evidence is clear. Tivo was commissioned to delver its next generation firmware to DirecTV based on specifications they were provided by a project target date. Even if those were amended during the project, if proper process was followed, the project simply should not have doubled the delivery time (or more) in the manner already seen. A specific date matters far less than the concept of holding to a delivery model.

At this time - the status is that Tivo is working on their part, but hasn't completed it. DirecTV is is "wait and see mode", with apparently no "public" urgency as to a final delivery date. Other than that, few know what happens behind closed doors between the two "partners".

It's really not that complicated.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> Given that they've made the best decisions regarding resource allocation and prioritization for their business (and you cannot say that they have not), think about what would be TiVo's best approach with regard to the "expectations of this group".


Even if I GIVE that TiVo made the best decisions (which I disagree with, BTW), it does not change the facts. TiVo is late .. and it is their fault. You're now trying to say that "because of their prioritization" it's not their fault. Dude, they set the priority .. it is their fault that it's late. You can argue whether that's a good thing or not, but it doesn't make it so TiVo hit their mark on this one. They didn't.



> Let's not belabor the point any further. In a nutshell, consumers who foster their own expectations without relying on the actual commitments made by their suppliers are setting themselves (and anyone who would believe them) up for disappointment and disaffection. You can claim that those expectations are justifiable somehow; I disagree, but more importantly, it doesn't matter: You way leads to more disappointment; mine doesn't. Choose your preference.
> 
> Avoiding disappointment is good for consumers.


"My way" leads to disappointment .. "My way" is .. TiVo said we'd have it by date X .. date X passed and we don't have it. "My way" is simply people opening their eyes to reality. Folks are disappointed but it sure isn't because of me. You're loathe to blame Tivo, heck, loathe to blame anyone yet somehow you've made it my fault that people are disappointed. Interesting.


----------



## jacmyoung

In a nutshell, bicker1's saying the consumers should not have any expectations based on companies' announcement of a new product, so long as the company does not say the product will be on order on a certain date, such expectations are not good for the consumers.

Since hardly any company can "commit" to a certain date, the conclusion is no one should have expectations, they only lead to disappointment, which is not good.

I for one don't like to point fingers at the others, always try to take responsibilities of my own, but I do hope I still have some expectations in life and if I am paying someone for a service, he is expected to deliver something in return. If he fails to do so, I usually will consider his justifications, and be reasonable, but a reasonable third person would not try to butt in and convince me I might be wrong for having expectations, telling me he might not consider me so important than the others to deliver the service, I should just not expect anything from him until such time he gets around to deliver the service for me.

It is a stupid counter argument.


----------



## redhot

The wait is killing me..............


----------



## Mike Bertelson

redhot said:


> The wait is killing me..............


Me too. While I doubt it will be worth switching, I would like to see what the alternatives will be.

If it's limited to what they said back in Sep '08 then it won't be worth it for me, but I'm interested to see what the field for the new DirecTiVo.

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> In a nutshell, bicker1's saying the consumers should not have any expectations based on companies' announcement of a new product, so long as the company does not say the product will be on order on a certain date, such expectations are not good for the consumers.


None of us can speak representing the market, but in general, consumer expectations get motivated by BOTH what they hear and what they see.

If they hear something, but don't see it...the interest level wanes.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> By the same token, you cannot say they have made the best decisions.


Absolutely correct. It is just a possibility. Both are just (mutually-exclusive) possibilities.



MicroBeta said:


> It's just a baseless assumption on your part that you're putting forth as an unquestionable fact


_No different_ from the comments it was in reply to.



MicroBeta said:


> The fact is, while I can't say what decisions were best for the company, neither can you. That pretty much makes any factual argument built on that premise completely baseless.


So the best approach for consumers is to consider both possibilities. That's what we've been doing. So why are we talking about the discussion? It seems to me that you're simply trying really hard to brow-beat this equally-valid but opposing perspective out of the thread. I'm mistaken about that, right?



hdtvfan0001 said:


> That said, best practices and change control procedures manage delays. For that reason, having a project take 1-2 years longer than planned, when the original timeline was about 2 years to start with...demonstrates that it is laden with problems in project management.


Not necessarily. Sometimes the market takes time to catch up with the plans. Sometimes the market never materializes. Sometimes other things are simply more important. That's not a problem with project management; it's responsible project management.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's really not that complicated.


Yet some folks are working really hard to make it that way, because they don't want to grant that there is no way to know what's going on inside the two companies.


----------



## Hoosier205

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Absolutely correct. It is just a possibility. Both are just (mutually-exclusive) possibilities.
> 
> _No different_ from the comments it was in reply to.
> 
> So the best approach for consumers is to consider both possibilities. That's what we've been doing. So why are we talking about the discussion? It seems to me that you're simply trying really hard to brow-beat this equally-valid but opposing perspective out of the thread. I'm mistaken about that, right?
> 
> Not necessarily. Sometimes the market takes time to catch up with the plans. Sometimes the market never materializes. Sometimes other things are simply more important. That's not a problem with project management; it's responsible project management.
> 
> Yet some folks are working really hard to make it that way, because they don't want to grant that there is no way to know what's going on inside the two companies.


So, you will chastise someone for putting something forth as fact when it isn't (even though you were wrong in that case) but when you do it it's ok?

I get it now. 

Mike


----------



## bicker1

Doug Brott said:


> Even if I GIVE that TiVo made the best decisions (which I disagree with, BTW), it does not change the facts.


It doesn't need to change the facts. TiVo doing the best for TiVo, while still living up to all their actual obligations, is valid on its own merits. If DirecTV wants to raise an issue about TiVo not living up to its commitments to DirecTV, I bet they would do so.



Doug Brott said:


> TiVo is late .. and it is their fault.


An opinion you are entitled to.



Doug Brott said:


> "My way" is simply people opening their eyes to reality.


No, your way leads people to corrupt "expected to offer" into a commitment. That wrong-thinking leads to disappointment and disaffection, which is bad for consumers.



Doug Brott said:


> Folks are disappointed but it sure isn't because of me.


Of course, but many are disappointed because of that *type *of thinking that you described so well.



Doug Brott said:


> You're loathe to blame Tivo,


I couldn't care less about TiVo. I care about unfounded expectations and the adverse impact that has on consumers and the consumer marketplace.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> So, you will chastise someone for putting something forth as fact when it isn't (even though you were wrong in that case) but when you do it it's ok?


Nope. That's not what I did, and so your attack is ridiculous.



Hoosier205 said:


> :beatdeadhorse:


Precisely. I wish people would stop trying so hard to impose their personal opinions on me. Let us disagree with each other and move on.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Boy, there's a whole lotta circular/false logic flying around. :ewww:

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> Absolutely correct. It is just a possibility. Both are just (mutually-exclusive) possibilities...


Such a possibility, even if true, does not compell folks here not to blame TiVo for the delay of the DirecTiVo, in fact if true, it may be an additional possible liability for TiVo. Because then it is a proof that TiVo has been strategically ignoring this project out of its own interest, at the expense of the DirecTV's interest. It may go beyond just blaming, rather something more serious for TiVo.

Are you sure you want to keep going down this path?


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> Boy, there's a whole lotta circular/false logic flying around. :ewww:


Indeed, you are engaging in a lot of that. Stop it.



jacmyoung said:


> Such a possibility, even if true, does not compell folks here not to blame TiVo for the delay of the DirecTiVo, in fact if true, it may be an additional possible liability for TiVo. Because then it is a proof that TiVo has been strategically ignoring this project out of its own interest, at the expense of the DirecTV's interest. It may go beyond just blaming, rather something more serious for TiVo. Are you sure you want to keep going down this path?


Absolutely: If there is actually something legitimate to blame TiVo for, let's do it. And we can be sure that if TiVo has been strategically ignoring this project out of its own interest, at the expense of the DirecTV's interest, with DirecTV having rights to expect something to the contrary, then DirecTV would assert those rights, and we'd hear about it. We haven't heard any such thing.


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ... If DirecTV wants to raise an issue about TiVo not living up to its commitments to DirecTV, I bet they would do so...


They already did, by saying they had provided all the specs long time ago, besically saying TiVo is responsible for the delay, I guess next you would use the same argument to argue that DirecTV cannot say it is TiVo's to blame


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> Indeed, you are engaging in a lot of that. Stop it.
> 
> Absolutely: If there is actually something legitimate to blame TiVo for, let's do it. And we can be sure that if TiVo has been strategically ignoring this project out of its own interest, at the expense of the DirecTV's interest, with DirecTV having rights to expect something to the contrary, then DirecTV would assert those rights, and we'd hear about it. We haven't heard any such thing.


Please be aware that this so called possibility/justification, is your own making, if true, would put TiVo in a less defensible position for the delay caused by TiVo, are you even serious that somehow you have made a good counter point?


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> They already did, by saying ...


So you're saying a business is legitimately *owed *something and they responded by "saying" something. Sorry but that is silly imho. Clearly, TiVo has not done anything (yet) that DirecTV holds grievance for.



jacmyoung said:


> Please be aware that this so called possibility/justification, is your own making, if true, would put TiVo in a less defensible position for the delay caused by TiVo, are you even serious that somehow you have made a good counter point?


That's an incredibly self-serving, circular line-of-reasoning you've got there.


----------



## gregjones

jacmyoung said:


> That is why it is an assumption. One can make any assumption, how much credit you give it is entirely your call. If an assmuption has sufficient support, it has more credibility.
> 
> My assumption is based on the logic that DirecTV may not want a supposed new DirrecTiVo to be more advanced than its own brand of new DVRs.
> 
> You don't have to agree


But what would DIRECTV lose if it were more advanced? That is the motive that is missing. I don't see where DIRECTV has anything to lose if the TiVo is phenomenally successful.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bicker1 said:


> Precisely, and indeed, there is no need to actively make that decision (at least not in any specific time-frame).
> 
> 
> MicroBeta said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip> *IMHO*, that's very bad business for any company.
> <snip>
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have any proof of that generalization, other than your own personal antipathy toward it? There are myriad things that we consumers don't like, but fail to significantly factor-into our purchasing decisions to make our antipathy matter.
Click to expand...




bicker1 said:


> Sure, as much as anyone could, given my long career, and the specific experiences that career afforded me. However, that's irrelevant. *MicroBeta made an assertion of fact.* I highlighted how that assertion was unsubstantiated. As it is, without that substantiation, there is no reason to believe that companies making prioritization decisions even after announcing strategic directions adversely impacts long-term profitability, and every reason to believe that it has no significant impact. It is really important to keep in mind just how short the attention span is for the typical American consumer. We are *all* affected by that general case, even if that is not something that drives our own personal purchasing decisions.





bicker1 said:


> Correct, MicroBeta had no proof for what he asserted.





bicker1 said:


> Nope. That's not what I did, and so your attack is ridiculous.
> 
> Precisely. I wish people would stop trying so hard to impose their personal opinions on me. Let us disagree with each other and move on.


Not so ridiculous as it's exactly what you tried to do to me...see the above.

You chastised me for asserting something as fact conveniently leaving out the fact that I stated it was opinion in the very post you quoted.

Now your post...


bicker1 said:


> *Given that they've made the best decisions regarding resource allocation and prioritization for their business* (and you cannot say that they have not), think about what would be TiVo's best approach with regard to the "expectations of this group". <snip>


Can you see the circular logic in this? You can't accuse me of putting forth a factual assertion when in it was originally and clearly posted as opinion, while then putting something as a "Given" fact and back peddle and say it was opinion...and then have the gall to hide behind "Let us disagree with each other and move on". Seriously?!? You falsely called me out for stating something as fact, then do exactly what you accused me of doing, and don't even have the guts to own up to it. 

Mike


----------



## Hoosier205

The final point goes to Mike. Game. Set. Match. 

Bicker1 is a poor bickerer apparently. This was lost before it began.


----------



## tonyd79

bicker1 said:


> No, your way leads people to corrupt "expected to offer" into a commitment. That wrong-thinking leads to disappointment and disaffection, which is bad for consumers.


You know, it is actually the fault of those damned consumers. If they just ignored the announcement by Tivo that they were making a new DirecTV Tivo and it would be out by a certain timeframe, there would be no disappointment. It is all the consumers fault for *believing Tivo.*

That seems to be what your argument boils down to.

Now, why would Tivo even make the announcement if it was not some level of commitment. The result is that consumers delay decisions based upon the expectation that something is coming. The FACT is that announcements such as the one Tivo made affect consumers' decision making.

The FACT that you are ignoring is that the target of the announcement is the consumer and you have to think the way THEY think, not some semantic strawman you are making about legal commitment dates and order dates.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

tonyd79 said:


> You know, it is actually the fault of those damned consumers. If they just ignored the announcement by Tivo that they were making a new DirecTV Tivo and it would be out by a certain timeframe, there would be no disappointment. It is all the consumers fault for *believing Tivo.*
> 
> That seems to be what your argument boils down to.
> 
> Now, why would Tivo even make the announcement if it was not some level of commitment. The result is that consumers delay decisions based upon the expectation that something is coming. The FACT is that announcements such as the one Tivo made affect consumers' decision making.
> 
> The FACT that you are ignoring is that the target of the announcement is the consumer and you have to think the way THEY think, not some semantic strawman you are making about legal commitment dates and order dates.


You're so right. It's about the consumer. 

The weird thing is they aren't putting out any real info for us consumers lately. With everything that's happened in the HD DVR+ line, the delays in delivery, and the apparent lack of new info, it kinda makes me wonder if it's gonna happen at all.

I can almost envision a scenario where it either dies but DirecTV and TiVo renew their current patent agreements, or maybe, just maybe, DirecTV buys TiVo.

It's all supposition but interesting. 

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

Maybe I should just bow down to the TiVo gods and capitulate ..

<dreamy voice>Ah, TiVo I love thee so .... Thank you for all that you do because without your words of hope where would I be?</dreamy voice>

Gosh, now I'm sounding like an apple fanboy !rolling


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> Maybe I should just bow down to the TiVo gods and capitulate ..
> 
> <dreamy voice>Ah, TiVo I love thee so .... Thank you for all that you do because without your words of hope where would I be?</dreamy voice>
> 
> Gosh, now *I'm sounding like an apple fanboy* !rolling


Say it ain't so! :eek2:



Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

gregjones said:


> But what would DIRECTV lose if it were more advanced? That is the motive that is missing. I don't see where DIRECTV has anything to lose if the TiVo is phenomenally successful.


We are talking about assumptions and the credibility of them. The assumption that DirecTV may want to have a phenomenally successful DirecTiVo is not supported by facts. The historical fact is when DirecTV had the ability to make successful DVRs, they'd make them for themselves, rather let TiVo do it for them. Therefore my assumption is more credible than yours.


----------



## Barry in Conyers

Doug Brott said:


> Maybe I should just bow down to the TiVo gods and capitulate ..


I don't know if the forums could stand the shock of you bowing down to non-D* gods.

Have never had a Tivo DVR, but the HR24 makes me wonder what a D*/Tivo box would offer that is not or will not be available with the HR24.


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> So you're saying a business is legitimately *owed *something and they responded by "saying" something.


Where did I say that? I don't think DirecTV gives a damn if the new DirecTiVo is late. But DirecTV did make clear that whatever the delay, if people don't like the delay, blame it on TiVo.



> Sorry but that is silly imho. Clearly, TiVo has not done anything (yet) that DirecTV holds grievance for.


This has never been about DirecTV holding grievance against TiVo, rather the DirecTiVo consumers bothered by the delay. Since there is no dispute now (because even you admit TiVo is responsible for the delay) the question is whether it is reasonable for those consumers to blame TiVo for the delay.

You say no they should not blame TiVo for the delay, because they should accept the delay until such time the product is ready for order. As silly as this response (or rather a non-response) may sound, your justification is basically, because TiVo might not care about you guys, TiVo might care more about other small cable consumers, before TiVo might get around to get the new DirecTiVo available for you guys, so stop complaining and wait

I am not going circular, I am just trying to lay your argument out and make it easier for people to understand You are more than welcome to refute my interpretation of your argument, however calling names alone is not very convincing.


----------



## balboadave

bicker1 said:


> You say that as if they could wave a magic wand and make all their challenges vanish into thin air. Your logic would essentially mean that *companies should keep everything secret until they are positive that they will be able to release at a specific time, with a specific level of quality. * That's utterly unreasonable, not only for logistical reasons, but also because public companies are forced to make disclosures regardless of what is best. And I still don't see how such an unfounded and categorically prickly perspective *serves* consumers. How is anything better because everything around someone seems like crap, because that person decided to expect everything to be better than it was promised to be?


You just described Apple's business plan to a T, as well as dozens of other tech companies. The real world does not agree with your arguments.


----------



## CuriousMark

Barry in Conyers said:


> Have never had a Tivo DVR, but the HR24 makes me wonder what a D*/Tivo box would offer that is not or will not be available with the HR24.


That is what we all want to know. Some of the features that a stand alone TiVo has that would be wonderful are:


Kidzone - a separate now playing list for the kiddies that you can control, they never even see what is on your now playing list. (The new DTV box is supposed to have this)
TiVo Search - kind of like the internet movie data base but customized to just show you what you can get in the next days, plus online, plus via VOD (Also planned for the new DTV box)
Amazon Video on Demand - If you have used it on your computer you understand, but here it downloads directly to the DVR (probably won't have it)
NetFlix - Pretty much just like you would get on a pricey blueray player or with the Roku box, but integrated and shows up in your TiVo Search. (Sure would be nice, but no clue if it will be included or not)
Video Podcasts - Hundreds of video podcasts you set up similarly to a season pass for a TV show. When a new episode is posted, the DVR downloads it and has it available. Things like Rocketboom, The Onion News Network, and hundreds more. (another would sure be nice, but we don't know if it will be included or not)
TiVo2go - The ability to archive shows to your computer. You can bring them back to watch them, burn them to DVD with third party software, or convert them for your iPad, iPod, iPhone, many other smart phones and players. (probably won't be there, you would probably have to let Apple sell you the portable device version separately through iTunes)
TiVo to Come Back - Pull home movies from your PC or other videos you have from other sources and watch them on the DVR. Depending on PC software used for this these can be copied to the DVR or streamed from the computer. (maybe HR24 already has this, in which case it is not new)
Blockbuser Video On Demand - Just like Amazon; but hey, competition is good.

I left out MRV because the HR24 has that. I also think it supports outboard hard drives for storage expansion, so I also left that out. Feel free to expand on what I likely missed.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

CuriousMark said:


> That is what we all want to know. Some of the features that a stand alone TiVo has that would be wonderful are:
> 
> 
> Kidzone - a separate now playing list for the kiddies that you can control, they never even see what is on your now playing list. (The new DTV box is supposed to have this)
> TiVo Search - kind of like the internet movie data base but customized to just show you what you can get in the next days, plus online, plus via VOD (Also planned for the new DTV box)
> Amazon Video on Demand - If you have used it on your computer you understand, but here it downloads directly to the DVR (probably won't have it)
> NetFlix - Pretty much just like you would get on a pricey blueray player or with the Roku box, but integrated and shows up in your TiVo Search. (Sure would be nice, but no clue if it will be included or not)
> Video Podcasts - Hundreds of video podcasts you set up similarly to a season pass for a TV show. When a new episode is posted, the DVR downloads it and has it available. Things like Rocketboom, The Onion News Network, and hundreds more. (another would sure be nice, but we don't know if it will be included or not)
> TiVo2go - The ability to archive shows to your computer. You can bring them back to watch them, burn them to DVD with third party software, or convert them for your iPad, iPod, iPhone, many other smart phones and players. (probably won't be there, you would probably have to let Apple sell you the portable device version separately through iTunes)
> TiVo to Come Back - Pull home movies from your PC or other videos you have from other sources and watch them on the DVR. Depending on PC software used for this these can be copied to the DVR or streamed from the computer. (maybe HR24 already has this, in which case it is not new)
> Blockbuser Video On Demand - Just like Amazon; but hey, competition is good.
> 
> I left out MRV because the HR24 has that. I also think it supports outboard hard drives for storage expansion, so I also left that out. Feel free to expand on what I likely missed.


Link from Sept '09


> _Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo® service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009._


I doubt it will have Netflix, Amazon on Demand, or Blockbuster. That would compete directly with DirecTV's DoD. Everything else seems reasonable. Of course I've been wrong before. 

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> Link from Sept '09
> 
> I doubt it will have Netflix, Amazon on Demand, or Blockbuster. That would compete directly with DirecTV's DoD. Everything else seems reasonable. Of course I've been wrong before.
> 
> Mike


I doubt several other PC file transfer options (the content producers would not allow this, whether HR24 or DirecTiVo) will be available on any new DVRs, a few others Mark seems to say are planned for already, so really there is not much the HR24 will not have. On that point, I actually think it is a valid speculation that TiVo might have put this thing on the back burner since it is likely a lost cause anyway.


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> I doubt it will have Netflix, Amazon on Demand, or Blockbuster. That would compete directly with DirecTV's DoD[sp]. Everything else seems reasonable. Of course I've been wrong before. Mike


That's pretty much what I said in parenthesis. I personally think NetFlix has a bit of a better change of being included than the other VOD services. I REALLY doubt they would include TiVo2Go and conversions for portable devices. The content providers really seem to want to sell that stuff separately and they also seem to be paranoid of people using it to post the content to file sharing sites, so DTV will most likely want to keep those folks happy.

I like to make DVDs for use when I travel using my series 2 TiVo DVR. That is one feature I would hate to have to give up simply because content providers would rather I buy the show again from Hulu or Amazon. Even those options won't work on an airplane, but the DVD does.

Anyway, my point was that the TiVo DVR does have a few compelling features that are not yet on the DirecTV DVRs, although the list is very much shorter than it used to be.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> I doubt several other PC file transfer options (the content producers would not allow this, whether HR24 or DirecTiVo) will be available on any new DVRs, a few others Mark seems to say are planned for already, so really there is not much the HR24 will not have. On that point, I actually think it is a valid speculation that TiVo might have put this thing on the back burner since it is likely a lost cause anyway.


Agreed. Any online streaming that competes with DirecTV services and contracts will likely be excluded.

Mike


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> Agreed. Any online streaming that competes with DirecTV services and contracts will likely be excluded.


That is an area where the stand alone TiVo's are already weak anyway. Besides NetFlix, they have no other online streaming (I am ignoring download services here, where you BUY/RENT the show) that would compete head to head with VOD. They don't have Hulu or any flavor of TV anywhere now. Thus not having it on DirecTV would be no change from the status quo for a user like me.


----------



## jacmyoung

CuriousMark said:


> That's pretty much what I said in parenthesis. I personally think NetFlix has a bit of a better change of being included than the other VOD services. I REALLY doubt they would include TiVo2Go and conversions for portable devices. The content providers really seem to want to sell that stuff separately and they also seem to be paranoid of people using it to post the content to file sharing sites, so DTV will most likely want to keep those folks happy.
> 
> I like to make DVDs for use when I travel using my series 2 TiVo DVR. That is one feature I would hate to have to give up simply because content providers would rather I buy the show again from Hulu or Amazon. Even those options won't work on an airplane, but the DVD does.
> 
> Anyway, my point was that the TiVo DVR does have a few compelling features that are not yet on the DirecTV DVRs, although the list is very much shorter than it used to be.


Many of the compelling features you mentioned not only existed on TiVo, but ReplayTV, even DISH's DVRs, but will not be available on the new DVRs, heck the only reason TiVo still has some of those features is probably because TiVo has not reached the significant level of market share for the content owners to be bothered to demand the removal of such features.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

CuriousMark said:


> That's pretty much what I said in parenthesis. I personally think NetFlix has a bit of a better change of being included than the other VOD services. I REALLY doubt they would include TiVo2Go and conversions for portable devices. The content providers really seem to want to sell that stuff separately and they also seem to be paranoid of people using it to post the content to file sharing sites, so DTV will most likely want to keep those folks happy.


Yeah, I was trying to agree with you (while having a discussion with my wife ).



> _I like to make DVDs for use when I travel using my series 2 TiVo DVR. That is one feature I would hate to have to give up simply because content providers would rather I buy the show again from Hulu or Amazon. Even those options won't work on an airplane, but the DVD does._


We can output from the current HR2x's to copy to DVD so that shouldn't be an issue...I don't think. :grin:



> _Anyway, my point was that the TiVo DVR does have a few compelling features that are not yet on the DirecTV DVRs, although the list is very much shorter than it used to be._


 I think those features will be the only thing that makes this potential new DirecTiVo work. I wonder which features it would take to make the TiVo stand far enough above the current DVR+ to compensate for the higher monthly fee.

I don't think I could even hazard a guess that makes sense. :shrug:

Speaking only for me, the current crop of TiVo features wouldn't be enough to garner the extra fee.

It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

don't get your hopes up Re: Netflix


----------



## Matt9876

The delay between DirecTVs deployment of Mpeg4 HD and the deployment of this next gen TiVo (last TiVo was the R=10 SD unit) has had the following results in my home.

A lifetime TiVo member no longer owns a TiVo and DirecTV no longer has a paying customer (DirecTV customer since 1996)

Dishnetworks HD DVR now takes care of my recording needs,Your delays no matter who is at fault has cost you a paying customer.

I vote on many issues each year with my wallet,Your past (HR24 is the exception) slow crappy DVRs have cost you many a customer.


----------



## Doug Brott

MicroBeta said:


> Speaking only for me, the current crop of TiVo features wouldn't be enough to garner the extra fee.


At this point I can't say that I expect there to be much of an extra fee associated with the TiVo service. It may just fall right in under the same DVR fee.


----------



## Doug Brott

Matt9876 said:


> The delay between DirecTVs deployment of Mpeg4 HD and the deployment of this next gen TiVo (last TiVo was the R=10 SD unit) has had the following results in my home.
> 
> A lifetime TiVo member no longer owns a TiVo and DirecTV no longer has a paying customer (DirecTV customer since 1996)
> 
> Dishnetworks HD DVR now takes care of my recording needs,Your delays no matter who is at fault has cost you a paying customer.
> 
> I vote on many issues each year with my wallet,Your past (HR24 is the exception) slow crappy DVRs have cost you many a customer.


While you certainly are a lost customer, DIRECTV has still gained (net) customers since the transition. TiVo has certainly lost DIRECTV customers over this.


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah, I was trying to agree with you (while having a discussion with my wife ).
> 
> We can output from the current HR2x's to copy to DVD so that shouldn't be an issue...I don't think. :grin:
> 
> I think those features will be the only thing that makes this potential new DirecTiVo work. I wonder which features it would take to make the TiVo stand far enough above the current DVR+ to compensate for the higher monthly fee.
> 
> I don't think I could even hazard a guess that makes sense. :shrug:
> 
> Speaking only for me, the current crop of TiVo features wouldn't be enough to garner the extra fee.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
> 
> Mike


And I will have to agree with you also. We are definitely on the same page. I am debating about jumping ship from DirecTV and going to TW cable or Jumping ship from TiVo and going to the HR DVRs. I still haven't made up my mind, so knowing what features make the jump would sure be helpful to me. Knowing that the HR2Xs support saving to PC and making DVDs is helpful. Does anyone know the details of how that works by the way? If the TiVo features I like and use are coming, the decision gets easy, go HR now and TiVo when it comes. I could survive without Rocketboom for a while. Molly, will you forgive me?


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Hi - what's the current status of D*Tivo?

I haven't been in this thread for months. Thanks!


----------



## sigma1914

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Hi - what's the current status of D*Tivo?
> 
> I haven't been in this thread for months. Thanks!


Keep waiting...It's not coming anytime soon, if ever.


----------



## bonscott87

CuriousMark said:


> [*]Kidzone - a separate now playing list for the kiddies that you can control, they never even see what is on your now playing list. (The new DTV box is supposed to have this)
> 
> [*]TiVo Search - kind of like the internet movie data base but customized to just show you what you can get in the next days, plus online, plus via VOD (Also planned for the new DTV box)


As noted both already are announced for the new box. Although that may have changed in the past 2 yrs. Tivo Search though would not be what you see today on the Premier's and thus wouldn't include online sources.


> [*]Amazon Video on Demand - If you have used it on your computer you understand, but here it downloads directly to the DVR (probably won't have it)
> 
> [*]NetFlix - Pretty much just like you would get on a pricey blueray player or with the Roku box, but integrated and shows up in your TiVo Search. (Sure would be nice, but no clue if it will be included or not)
> 
> [*]Video Podcasts - Hundreds of video podcasts you set up similarly to a season pass for a TV show. When a new episode is posted, the DVR downloads it and has it available. Things like Rocketboom, The Onion News Network, and hundreds more. (another would sure be nice, but we don't know if it will be included or not)


Highly unlikely. However are you aware you can do all these today (and have been for over 3 yrs) on the DirecTV DVRs via Media Share? Simply use PlayOn on any PC on your network and you're streaming Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and any podcast you can think of to your HR2x.



> [*]TiVo2go - The ability to archive shows to your computer. You can bring them back to watch them, burn them to DVD with third party software, or convert them for your iPad, iPod, iPhone, many other smart phones and players. (probably won't be there, you would probably have to let Apple sell you the portable device version separately through iTunes)


Very unlikely. DirecTV takes a conservative route in terms of DRM to not tick off the content providers on which they rely on. DirecTV does have a lot of integration with the iPhone today though.



> [*]TiVo to Come Back - Pull home movies from your PC or other videos you have from other sources and watch them on the DVR. Depending on PC software used for this these can be copied to the DVR or streamed from the computer. (maybe HR24 already has this, in which case it is not new)


Yes, HR2x already has this built in for some formats. You can stream pretty much any format of local content via PlayOn, Tversity or several other media servers.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> At this point I can't say that I expect there to be much of an extra fee associated with the TiVo service. It may just fall right in under the same DVR fee.


Does that signal the possibility that DirecTV may not pay TiVo a "significantly higher fee" for this new DirecTiVo as stipulated in the agreement, or at least as announced?

I find it hard to believe if DirecTV still has to pay the much higer fee to TiVo, it will not in any way pass the cost on to the subs.


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Does that signal the possibility that DirecTV may not pay TiVo a "significantly higher fee" for this new DirecTiVo as stipulated in the agreement, or at least as announced?
> 
> I find it hard to believe if DirecTV still has to pay the much higer fee to TiVo, it will not in any way pass the cost on to the subs.


What DIRECTV pays TiVo and what the customer pays DIRECTV are not necessarily related. Since TiVo was only getting $1/customer the first time around, most would consider $2/customer a significant change (e.g. 100% better). I just wouldn't necessarily link the two is all I'm saying.


----------



## Brennok

I saw someone mention about leaks but I didn't quote it and don't feel like going back through the thread. 

I didn't follow the development of the HD DirecTivo and leaks, but I don't believe there was a single leak on the Premiere. The only thing that was out there at least that I saw was when TiVo accidentally packed in the instruction sheet in a HD box mentioning the Premiere with a picture of the unit. Other than that I don't remember anyone breaking the NDA or leaking details.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> Not so ridiculous as it's exactly what you tried to do to me...see the above.


Sorry, but you're mistaken. I never said anything of the sort you imply. You posted your opinion; I posted that it wasn't substantiated (i.e., wasn't fact); so by your own statement, I was agreeing with you, yet you chose to try to defend your opinion as fact, instead of just saying, "Yup, I have no proof of that; and it could just as likely be the way you implied it could be." Again, why are you working so hard to brow-beat an opposing perspective away? Why can we not just disagree?



MicroBeta said:


> Can you see the circular logic in this? You can't accuse me of putting forth a factual assertion when in it was originally and clearly posted as opinion, while then putting something as a "Given" fact and back peddle and say it was opinion...and then have the gall to hide behind "Let us disagree with each other and move on". Seriously?!?


Clearly you are unfamiliar with what the word "Given" means. It is very common in discussions. We talked about something; had a disagreement; I demonstrated that either way could be true; and *then* said to take one of the two sides as a "given" so you could understand the ramifications *of that possibility*. Am I saying that given is absolutely the truth? Of course not. I already said it wasn't. I'm just showing you what the ramifications of that possibility. Again, I wish you would stop trying so hard to brow-beat an opposing perspective away.

And do you see the difference between you and I? You say, "But that's not proven!" and I reply, "You are correct." You should try that. It is a hallmark of maturity.


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> Where did I say that?


Here:

> They already did, by saying they had provided all the specs long time ago, besically saying TiVo is responsible for the delay...





jacmyoung said:


> This has never been about DirecTV holding grievance against TiVo


Even though they're the only ones who perhaps have a valid claim.



jacmyoung said:


> rather the DirecTiVo consumers bothered by the delay.


Based on what I've said are unfounded expectations.



balboadave said:


> You just described Apple's business plan to a T, as well as dozens of other tech companies. The real world does not agree with your arguments.


Sure it does. Anecdotal counter-examples don't obviate the existence of the vast majority of cases.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

This thread must be the sequel to The NeverEnding Story....


----------



## bicker1

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This thread must be the sequel to The NeverEnding Story....


And most of it is pretty pointless imho. The insistence that everyone must agree with the most popular perspective seems ill-advised. We're going around in circles now. Why not just let it stop agreeing to disagree? :shrug:


----------



## hasan

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This thread must be the sequel to The NeverEnding Story....


I glance at it about once a month, not because I have the slightest interest in TIVO vaporware, but just to see the temperature of the room, and get a few chuckles.

They ought to rename this thread to the "Official Q3 2010 Frustrate and Bicker Thread"


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV paid TiVo $2.5M for HD DVR development during February-April 2010, and $9.0M for development during February-January 2010.

Just to recap the latest summary (from the 4/30/2010 10-Q):On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo ® service. Under the terms of this non−exclusive arrangement, TiVo is developing a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR. TiVo is working with DIRECTV with the intention to deploy this product to consumers later this year.

DIRECTV also has certain additional annual obligations to market and promote the new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo Service once it has launched. DIRECTV, upon the deployment of high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, is entitled to recoup, over time, a portion of certain development fees through a reduction in certain subscription fees. The new agreement also extends the mutual covenant not to sue with respect to each company's products and services throughout the term of the new agreement.

Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new high definition DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo (when and if the new version of the TiVo service is deployed) than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement.

Due to uncertainties over the ultimate profit margin on the development work, the Company recognizes revenues and costs for the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR based on a zero profit model, which results in the recognition of equal amounts of revenues and costs. During the three months ended April 30, 2010 and 2009, the Company recognized $2.5 million and $1.0 million in technology revenues and $2.5 million and $1.0 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR.​
Prior year: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2010, the Company recognized $9.0 million in technology revenues and $9.0 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR.​


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> [...]
> 
> Due to uncertainties over the ultimate profit margin on the development work, the Company recognizes revenues and costs for the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR based on a zero profit model, which results in the recognition of equal amounts of revenues and costs. During the three months ended April 30, 2010 and 2009, the Company recognized $2.5 million and $1.0 million in technology revenues and $2.5 million and $1.0 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR.[/INDENT]
> 
> Prior year: During the twelve months ended January 31, 2010, the Company recognized $9.0 million in technology revenues and $9.0 million in cost of technology revenues related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR.​


The fact that the box hasn't been delivered yet makes me wonder if the $11.5 million DirecTV paid to date is really being used by TiVo for development, or just being characterized as development fees? Looks to me like this revenue is apparently tax-free, based on the "zero profi model" accounting method being applied to it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Given how much DirecTV has paid TiVo this year (see Sixto’s post above) it would seem they each still expect to deliver something.

Now for an unsubstantiated theory... I’m not sure TiVo can survive as a company. I know if my company routinely delivered its product even several months late, let alone years (yes I understand there’s some controversy over whether it’s actually delayed or not), it wouldn’t be long before we’re out of business. It’s my opinion, yes an opinion (and when I use things like IMHO or the word opinion in my statements I really mean opinion and fact just in case someone missed the use of “opinion”), that sooner or later one of the service providers (cable or satellite) will buy TiVo or TiVo will go out of business.

It’s a theory...any rebuttal? :grin:

Mike


----------



## bidger

Matt9876 said:


> The delay between DirecTVs deployment of Mpeg4 HD and the deployment of this next gen TiVo (last TiVo was the R=10 SD unit) has had the following results in my home.
> 
> A lifetime TiVo member no longer owns a TiVo and DirecTV no longer has a paying customer (DirecTV customer since 1996)
> 
> Dishnetworks HD DVR now takes care of my recording needs...


So you went from one company that has and continues to finance TiVo to one that TiVo sued. And in the end, you're still without TiVo, so in the end TiVo wasn't that big a deal.


----------



## ATARI

bidger said:


> So you went from one company that has and continues to finance TiVo to one that TiVo sued. And in the end, you're still without TiVo, so in the end TiVo wasn't that big a deal.


Kindof funny when you think about it.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> Based on what I've said are unfounded expectations.


Exactly .. you have dismissed the facts by calling them unfounded. If you scroll back and look at my post of "expectations" that we talked about earlier I noted that the first "expectation" was in the original press release from TiVo and DIRECTV. Why you would call that "unfounded" is beyond me .. :shrug:

Since you fail to accept FACTS as a given and choose to add your HYPOTHETICALS as given instead, I'm going to bow out of discussion with you. You have fun living in your fantasy land. I'll keep passing on information that is based on FACT or tidbits that I've heard here and there.


----------



## jacmyoung

MicroBeta said:


> Given how much DirecTV has paid TiVo this year (see Sixto's post above) it would seem they each still expect to deliver something...


But if the conclusion is, even if it rolls out some day it will likely be irrelevant, then the $9 plus million DirecTV pays TiVo each year is basically so that TiVo will not sue DirecTV It actually is more than DISH spent each year to drag out the lawsuit with TiVo.

On the other hand, the DirecTiVo subs (if there are any left) now have more reason to blame TiVo for the delay. Over $10M spent by TiVo and paid for by DirecTV, there is still no sign of the new TiVo, especially if the reason for the delay is because TiVo has put this project on a much lower priority.

Thanks to bicker1, there is one more reason (a big one I might add) to blame


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> Now for an unsubstantiated theory... I'm not sure TiVo can survive as a company. I know if my company routinely delivered its product even several months late, let alone years (yes I understand there's some controversy over whether it's actually delayed or not), it wouldn't be long before we're out of business.


This theory is common among those who don't know TiVo well and have no desire to understand it better or come to TiVo sites with an axe to grind. I am not saying you are any one of those, but you may have picked up some of their language at some point.

TiVo has been redefining their company over the last few years to avoid this pitfall and survive long term. The are changing from a consumer products company to a service bureau of sorts. Rather than try to compete with cable companies they want to sell their back end capabilities to the cable and satellite companies. For a long time it was looking like that tack was going to fail miserably and most analysts and investors were expecting lawsuits to be TiVo's only path forward. But the back end deals are finally starting to work. RCN and another small cable company are now renting TiVo DVRs instead of those from Motorola or Sci Atlanta. Internationally they have finally got agreements to supply hardware and back end software and database support to Virgin and Ono and the deal for the same thing in Australia that appeared to falter is stabilizing and getting better.

I think there are several possible suitors too. I won't be Dish, DirecTV, a cable company or any company in the Video delivery business because TiVo will want to be in a position to supply to them all. Motorola or a Cisco might be a better fit.

While their future does appear a bit risky, it is not as grim as detractors would imply.


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## Stuart Sweet

Just a quick note... The amount that DIRECTV is paying is fairly insubstantial to them and could easily be written of as bad debt or unrealized R&D.

It's no proof of anything.


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## wilbur_the_goose

OR - D* is paying TiVo all that money to prevent legal action. Tax-free hush money?

Personally, I don't care, but it'd be interesting if true.


----------



## Doug Brott

wilbur_the_goose said:


> OR - D* is paying TiVo all that money to prevent legal action. Tax-free hush money?
> 
> Personally, I don't care, but it'd be interesting if true.


TiVo and DIRECTV have a non-litigation agreement .. Part of that agreement involves the exchange of money. This isn't hush money, this is a negotiated legal agreement. That was the crux of the 9/08 announcement (which extended & expanded earlier agreements). As noted by others, DIRECTV probably has gotten what they really want out of the agreement so if TiVo delivers, they win, if TiVo fails to deliver, they win. DIRECTV is really in a no-lose situation. I'm not entirely sure if TiVo is in a Win situation in either case, but if they ultimately deliver and can continue that arrangement over the long term (past expiration of Patents), then TiVo could ultimately win from this arrangement as well.


----------



## jacmyoung

CuriousMark said:


> This theory is common among those who don't know TiVo well and have no desire to understand it better or come to TiVo sites with an axe to grind. I am not saying you are any one of those, but you may have picked up some of their language at some point.
> 
> TiVo has been redefining their company over the last few years to avoid this pitfall and survive long term. The are changing from a consumer products company to a service bureau of sorts. Rather than try to compete with cable companies they want to sell their back end capabilities to the cable and satellite companies. For a long time it was looking like that tack was going to fail miserably and most analysts and investors were expecting lawsuits to be TiVo's only path forward. But the back end deals are finally starting to work. RCN and another small cable company are now renting TiVo DVRs instead of those from Motorola or Sci Atlanta. Internationally they have finally got agreements to supply hardware and back end software and database support to Virgin and Ono and the deal for the same thing in Australia that appeared to falter is stabilizing and getting better.
> 
> I think there are several possible suitors too. I won't be Dish, DirecTV, a cable company or any company in the Video delivery business because TiVo will want to be in a position to supply to them all. Motorola or a Cisco might be a better fit.
> 
> While their future does appear a bit risky, it is not as grim as detractors would imply.


Of course your above facts can be spinned differently, from a different perspective

For a long time TiVo relied on the lawsuit to secure its future. DirecTV's initial partnership with TiVo in 2006 was in a large part the result of trying to void the position DISH was in at that time. Even the new agreement in 08, judging from everyone is saying, is in part an effort to avoid lawsuit.

Unfortunately since TiVo's initial win in 2006 against DISH, the litigation stalled, and maybe, just maybe, after the latest stall at the appeals court, TiVo began to rethink its strategy. A lot of the new partnerships you mentioned came very recently. I agree based on your evidence, and the evidence by bicker1, TiVo could be moving away from licensing to the big content carriers such as DISH, DirecTV, Comast...and working with small companies, maybe even going "back ends."

On the other hand, the latest deals with the small cablecos might not be as potentially lucrative. For one thing, those deals all seem to require that TiVo provides not only the software, but hardware manufacturing as well, which is a much more costly model than the DirecTiVo or the Comcast model. At the same time, if one of the above posts is correct, RCN only charges $2 extra for the TiVo DVR, meaning TiVo demands RCN very little from their partnership.

From the standpoint of the small cablecos like RCN, if TiVo can provide software development and hardware manufacturing at such a low cost to RCN, why not? Maybe if TiVo agreed to offer similar deals to DISH, DirecTV, Comcast...TiVo could have already done what you say they were trying for years.

Instead, TiVo, in part I think because its early court wins against DISH in 2006, wanted do as little as possible for a monthly licensing fee from all the big guys, having no part in any hardware manufacturing cost, in the case of DISH, TiVo simply just wanted to collect a fee while doing nothing. That did not work and likely TiVo has decided that it may never work, therefore the change of its strategy.

Getting back to the topic, I don't think we can blame TiVo for serving its own best interest, however as a result, the new DirecTiVo is delayed and it is likely irrelevant even if it rolls out some time in the future, therefore it is understandable some remaining DirecTiVo fans blame TiVo for the delay.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

CuriousMark said:


> This theory is common among those who don't know TiVo well and have no desire to understand it better or come to TiVo sites with an axe to grind. I am not saying you are any one of those, but you may have picked up some of their language at some point.
> 
> TiVo has been redefining their company over the last few years to avoid this pitfall and survive long term. The are changing from a consumer products company to a service bureau of sorts. Rather than try to compete with cable companies they want to sell their back end capabilities to the cable and satellite companies. For a long time it was looking like that tack was going to fail miserably and most analysts and investors were expecting lawsuits to be TiVo's only path forward. But the back end deals are finally starting to work. RCN and another small cable company are now renting TiVo DVRs instead of those from Motorola or Sci Atlanta. Internationally they have finally got agreements to supply hardware and back end software and database support to Virgin and Ono and the deal for the same thing in Australia that appeared to falter is stabilizing and getting better.
> 
> I think there are several possible suitors too. I won't be Dish, DirecTV, a cable company or any company in the Video delivery business because TiVo will want to be in a position to supply to them all. Motorola or a Cisco might be a better fit.
> 
> While their future does appear a bit risky, it is not as grim as detractors would imply.


I just put forth this theory to try to move away from the previous discussion.

Stuart brings up a good point. The amount DirecTV has paid this year is pretty small on a percentage basis. I hadn't considered that before but thinking about it now it would seem an amount easily written off by DirecTV.

Now, if this project is dead in the water, how does that affect TiVo's future profitability? Right now they're losing money...some have said bleeding cash but I'm not sure that's true.

Mike


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## Stuart Sweet

I'd say their future profitability is based more on the results of lawsuits.


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> Stuart brings up a good point. The amount DirecTV has paid this year is pretty small on a percentage basis. I hadn't considered that before but thinking about it now it would seem an amount easily written off by DirecTV.
> 
> Now, if this project is dead in the water, how does that affect TiVo's future profitability? Right now they're losing money...some have said bleeding cash but I'm not sure that's true.
> 
> Mike


Yes, this deal for DirecTV is probably mostly about the No Sue clause.

If this product is dead in the water, it hurts. It would complete the transition of TiVo away from the satellite camp to the cable camp. I think TiVo would prefer to have a foot in both if it can.

Except for 2 or 3 quarters, TiVo has lost money since day 1, even when DirecTV was their biggest revenue source. In the last few years the losses are much smaller than they were before Rogers. Since the Dish payment they have more in the bank than they have ever had, and can sustain their current burn rate for years, so in that respect they are more stable than ever before. But make no mistake, until they turn into a profitable company, they are a risky proposition.


----------



## CuriousMark

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd say their future profitability is based more on the results of lawsuits.


That is the common thinking. I used to believe it too, but not so much any more as I see the new directions starting to be real instead of just dreams.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd say their future profitability is based more on the results of lawsuits.


Interesting. I have to wonder how long that would last though.

Mike


----------



## Steve

CuriousMark said:


> Yes, this deal for DirecTV is probably mostly about the No Sue clause [...]


Actually I don't believe that's the case. When DirecTV bought Replay a couple of years ago, I'm pretty sure one of the drivers for that acquisition was ownership of the TiVo-Replay "no sue" agreement the two companies struck earlier in the decade.

I believe that when DirecTV struck the latest dea with TiVo, they sincerely wanted to add a TiVo-based box to their arsenal as a retention/acquistion option, for those subscribers that absolutely HAVE to have TiVo. I say this, because when they struck the new deal with TiVo back in 2008, the old deal wasn't due to expire until sometime in 2010, so there was no gun to their head to do anything at that time.


----------



## Sixto

5/25/2010:In terms of our relationship with DIRECTV, aggressive development activity continues and we expect the launch of that product by the end of the year.

On the DIRECTV front, we are still very much aiming for the end of this year in terms of deployment. Mike White, the new CEO of DIRECTV, who I've been able to establish a good dialogue with, I think has done a very nice job of being able to make sure our respective teams are communicating well and overcoming any development challenges that may appear in our path and keeping us on track in terms of getting that out. So we are continuing to make progress there.

Sure. Well, as you know, our new DIRECTV deal kicked in on February 15. And as a result, there is an increase in the cash that we're receiving from DIRECTV for monthly subscribers. However, until our new product with DIRECTV is accepted a little later this year, we'll continue to be recognizing revenue at the old rate. And that's just a pure accounting guidance rule that we have to follow.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/206957-tivo-f1q11-qtr-end-04-30-2010-earnings-call-transcript​


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd say their future profitability is based more on the results of lawsuits.


There are indications that TiVo no longer believes it can rely on the above thinking. I am pleasantly surprised the discussions here have revealed a lot more than just the delay of the new DirecTiVo.

From the very beginning, I speculated that this new DirecTiVo agreement was in large part DirecTV's way to avoid litigation, but also to place DISH in a disadvantage, giving TiVo another support for seeking a "significantly higher damage rate" from the court, the announcement was made one day before TiVo went to hearing with DISH, during the hearing, for the first time TiVo asked for a $2.20 damage rate, a "significantly higher" rate than the old $1.20


----------



## Sixto

As with most things, it will all come down to features and price.

If they somehow, miraculously, support all of the features of the HR24, including seamless MRV with other DirecTV receivers, which I'm not sure is possible, and they support TiVo Desktop, and the price is reasonable, they just might have a chance.

Many if's, but $2.5M cost, no profit, per quarter, is not trivial in this economy.


----------



## grooves12

CuriousMark said:


> That is the common thinking. I used to believe it too, but not so much any more as I see the new directions starting to be real instead of just dreams.


But, most of the deals they are signing are small, and just token-efforts by the cable co's. I'm willing to bet in large part, motivated by fear of being sued shall Tivo's patents be validated.

If they lose that power of the companies, pretty much all the deals will disappear.


----------



## jacmyoung

grooves12 said:


> ... I'm willing to bet in large part, motivated by fear of being sued shall Tivo's patents be validated.
> 
> If they lose that power of the companies, pretty much all the deals will disappear.


Fearing of lawsuit is not necessarily one of the reasons. Most cablecos rely on third parties (such as Motorola) to provide DVR hardware and software services, not because they fear being sued, but because it is a cost effective business model.

Small cablecos can't compete with large ones, or DBS, if they also rely on the same third parties. TiVo's recent partnership with those smaller cablecos seem to fit in the puzzle. There is no doubt TiVo can provide a more advanced DVR solution for the smaller cablecos so they can stand out from the DVRs provided by the large cablecos, the key is that TiVo has to provide a similarly cost effective model for them. TiVo seems to be doing just that, provides not only software development, also the hardware, at a very reasonable fee, judged by the mere $2 extra fee charge by RCN for the TiVo DVR.

If DISH gets a similar deal, using the 4 million DISH DVRs currently subject to the contempt order, apply the $2, will result in a $96M annual fee paid to TiVo which is even less than the $120M DISH's CEO said he was willing to pay TiVo per year to settle the lawsuit, and TiVo does not have to provide the hardware to DISH BTW.

The point is, if TiVo decides to offer DVR services to the content providers at a reasonable rate, things can happen, whether it is for a large company, or a small one. The deals TiVo made with the large companies in the past are not as good as what the recent deals TiVo is making with the smaller cablecos, sepecially when one considers that the large companies such as DirecTV are capable of their own DVR development, therefore TiVo needs to have an even more attractive model for them to make sense.

The "significantly higher fee" TiVo will charge DirecTV for the new DirecTiVo, while DirecTV must still provide the hardware, is hardly a good deal for DirecTV, when we can agree the DirecTV's own new DVRs are not any less capable.


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## Stuart Sweet

Unless I'm mistaken, the higher fee will be charged to the subscriber. I don't think DIRECTV itself is absorbing any part of it.


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## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, the higher fee will be charged to the subscriber. I don't think DIRECTV itself is absorbing any part of it.


I thought at least some of the cost would be passed onto the subs but Doug did not think so. The current TiVo fee is not directly passed onto the DirecTiVo subs. But any cost is always passed onto the subs one way or the other.


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## Doug Brott

consider that my thinking has recently changed .. It's just a guess on my part, though.


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## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> consider that my thinking has recently changed .. It's just a guess on my part, though.


If directv must absorb the cost then it may explain why it is not so motivated.


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## bicker1

Doug Brott said:


> Exactly .. you have dismissed the facts by calling them unfounded.


What I dismissed as unfounded were the *expectations* on the part of consumers, not the facts with regard to the deals made and the project plans announced.



Doug Brott said:


> Since you fail to accept FACTS


Red Herring.... I didn't "fail to accept" any facts.



Doug Brott said:


> You have fun living in your fantasy land.


Actually, the problem here is that I live in reality-land; hard, cold, don't believe anything other than proven facts, reality-land. I suppose that that's upsetting for folks who prefer to hold to unfounded expectations.


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## Stuart Sweet

Bicker1, perhaps you might choose to take conversations like that to private message. Thanks.


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## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> What I dismissed as unfounded were the *expectations* on the part of consumers, not the facts with regard to the deals made and the project plans announced.
> 
> Red Herring.... I didn't "fail to accept" any facts.
> 
> Actually, the problem here is that I live in reality-land; hard, cold, don't believe anything other than proven facts, reality-land. I suppose that that's upsetting for folks who prefer to hold to unfounded expectations.


I know where you live ..

TiVo said they "expected" something .. we, the consumer "expected" the same thing (DIRECTV TiVo in 2H 2009). TiVo failed to deliver.

Those are the facts. You are DISMISSING them which (last I checked) was you "failing to accept" the facts.

Case closed.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Doug Brott" said:


> I know where you live ..
> 
> TiVo said they "expected" something .. we, the consumer "expected" the same thing (DIRECTV TiVo in 2H 2009). TiVo failed to deliver.
> 
> Those are the facts. You are DISMISSING them which (last I checked) was you "failing to accept" the facts.
> 
> Case closed.


Bicker1 does not have expectations in life. I wonder if he expected to eat last night, or if he insists only after he had eaten he would accept the fact he ate last night. But without any expectation he would not have attempted the dinner, therefore there could not be the fact he had any dinner.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

jacmyoung said:


> Bicker1 does not have expectations in life. I wonder if he expected to eat last night, or if he insists only after he had eaten he would accept the fact he ate last night. <snip>


That's actually a pretty good analogy...that is if I understand what bicker1 is saying...which gets difficult at times. 

I like that analogy, it fits. All I know is I was told to expect something. I expected it and it didn't happen. That is an absolute fact.

Whether or not I should have expected what I was told to expect, that's a horse of a different [strike] color [/strike]...expectation. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since we know the new Tivobox will likely not show until 4Q 2010 or beyond....and more than likely 1Q-2Q 2011....

IF and WHEN a new DirecTV HD DVR surfaces....we'll likely learn about it here before almost anyplace else....so when the established folks and Mods here indicate its way off....its likely way off. The first step in the 4 step program is getting past denial, and it seems some have not gotten that far here yet on that point.

...speculation beyond what has been debate, discussed, and regurgitated at nauseum in this thread to date can't help but be redundant. :eek2:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since we know the new Tivobox will likely not show until 4Q 2010 or beyond....and more than likely 1Q-2Q 2011....
> 
> IF and WHEN a new DirecTV HD DVR surfaces....we'll likely learn about it here before almost anyplace else....so when the established folks and Mods here indicate its way off....its likely way off. The first step in the 4 step program is getting past denial, and it seems some have not gotten that far here yet on that point.
> 
> ...speculation beyond what has been debate, discussed, and regurgitated at nauseum in this thread to date can't help but be redundant. :eek2:


True. I guess it's time to move on to speculating about features. 

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> True. I guess it's time to move on to speculating about features.
> 
> Mike


That would at least seem of some value, in terms of assessing folks' likes/preferences.


----------



## devaska1

Recent industry chatter has it that Apple and Tivo are in cahoots to create an Apple/Tivo device.... Anyone know how or have ideas how this might affect the DTV/Tivo plans?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'd like to think it will have no impact, that TiVo is big enough to handle both projects at the same time.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> I'd like to think it will have no impact, that TiVo is big enough to handle both projects at the same time.


I am not so sure. As frustrating as bicker1's argument, he did raise an interesting point that TiVo has very limited resources, must prioritize. As a result the new DirecTiVo is delayed. A speculation with facts such as the RCN rollout for support.

As far as the TiVo/AppleTV rumor, it appears just a rumor. But if true, it could very well delay this one. Not that it will make much difference at this point.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> I am not so sure. As frustrating as bicker1's argument, he did raise an interesting point that *TiVo has very limited resources, must prioritize*. As a result the new DirecTiVo is delayed. A speculation with facts such as the RCN rollout for support [...]


If that's the case, then the $11.5 million paid so far by DirecTV is probably not being spent by engineering.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Steve" said:


> If that's the case, then the $11.5 million paid so far by DirecTV is probably not being spent by engineering.


Can you elaborate?


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Can you elaborate?


If, in fact, their engineering department is resource constrained forcing them to re-prioritize, where is that DirecTV development money being spent? With $11.5 million, you'd think TiVo could add as many contract programmers as needed to handle multiple projects.


----------



## jacmyoung

"Steve" said:


> If, in fact, their engineering department is resource constrained forcing them to re-prioritize, where is that DirecTV development money being spent? With $11.5 million, you'd think TiVo could add as many contract programmers as needed to handle multiple projects.


One post did use the term "hush money." Are you implying the same?

I think some engineering has been done, just that neither side is in any rush to make it happen.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> One post did use the term "hush money." Are you implying the same?


Not at all, as I recently posted in this thread.


----------



## Curtis52

Steve said:


> Actually I don't believe that's the case. When DirecTV bought Replay a couple of years ago, I'm pretty sure one of the drivers for that acquisition was ownership of the TiVo-Replay "no sue" agreement the two companies struck earlier in the decade.


There was no "no sue" agreement. Replay was almost bankrupt and couldn't afford further legal expense. TiVo knew they couldn't get money from a broke company. They both just backed off. Both lawsuits were withdrawn without prejudice meaning they could refile later.


----------



## Steve

Curtis52 said:


> There was no "no sue" agreement. Replay was almost bankrupt and couldn't afford further legal expense. *TiVo knew they couldn't get money from a broke company.* They both just backed off. Both lawsuits were withdrawn *without prejudice* meaning they could refile later.


I stand corrected on the "no sue" agreement. I'm not an attorney, so I wasn't aware of what "without prejudice" meant.

I've never seen that reason for dropping the suit reported before, tho. Perhaps you have access to documents or reporting I couldn't find? What I found was this statement: _"The two companies said in a joint statement issued on Friday: "We believe our energies are better spent expanding the market for DVRs rather than fighting with each other."_

As reported here: _"Sonicblue, based in Santa Clara, Calif., received a patent from the United States Patent and Trademark Office on Dec. 3 of last year covering 50 claims for developing devices that can pause and play back televisions shows. *Sonicblue filed a lawsuit against TiVo the day after receiving its patent.*"_ DirecTV now owns those patents, AFAIK.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> I stand corrected on the "no sue" agreement. I'm not an attorney, so I wasn't aware of what "without prejudice" meant.
> 
> I've never seen that reason for dropping the suit reported before, tho. Perhaps you have access to documents or reporting I couldn't find? What I found was this statement: _"The two companies said in a joint statement issued on Friday: "We believe our energies are better spent expanding the market for DVRs rather than fighting with each other."_
> 
> As reported here: _"Sonicblue, based in Santa Clara, Calif., received a patent from the United States Patent and Trademark Office on Dec. 3 of last year covering 50 claims for developing devices that can pause and play back televisions shows. *Sonicblue filed a lawsuit against TiVo the day after receiving its patent.*"_ DirecTV now owns those patents, AFAIK.


No sue or not, with or without prejudice, DirecTV's purchase of the ReplayTV IPs was a defensive measure, if sued by TiVo or others, can be used to counter sue. In addition, the ReplayTV DVR invention does have its own value, DirecTV could have already used some of it, therefore they can easily prove non-infringement of other DVR patents, if necessary.

Your speculation is sound that DirecTV actually wanted to have a new DirecTiVo for retention purpose back in 2008. My speculation was, because of the timing of the agreement, it was in large part a move to put its direct competitor, DISH, in a disadvantageous position. It worked to some degree. The district judge did impost the higher damage rate requested by TiVo, though not in the form TiVo asked for. Even the appeals court at one point affirmed the judgment.

Had DISH relented and settled with TiVo, paying a fee to TiVo, it would have made it more costly for DISH to do the DVR business, hence less competitive. Today DirecTV's DVR fee is still much less than DISH. The impact is very obvious, a lot of us are DirecTV DVR subs in part because of the lower DVR fees.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> Your speculation is sound that DirecTV actually wanted to have a new DirecTiVo for retention purpose back in 2008.


It sounds like you are making a statement of fact. Please provide supporting documentation. DIRECTV's actions in supporting the development of a new TiVo DVR do not necessarily imply the reasoning you hypothesize.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> It sounds like you are making a statement of fact. Please provide supporting documentation. DIRECTV's actions in supporting the development of a new TiVo DVR do not necessarily imply the reasoning you hypothesize.


Speculation by definition, cannot be a fact, even if I think it is sound


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, but by your statement that "DirecTV actually wanted to have a new DirecTiVo for retention purpose back in 2008." you assert something to be a fact. I contend that you have no evidence for that assertion. Or are you withdrawing the assertion, or correcting my presumption (therefore admitting that you do not know why DIRECTV wanted to have a new TiVo product?)

Please, do explain.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes, but by your statement that "DirecTV actually wanted to have a new DirecTiVo for retention purpose back in 2008." you assert something to be a fact [...]


I don't want to speak for *jacmyoung*, but I think I indirectly started this with my speculation earlier in this thread, in response to another post:



Steve said:


> [...] I believe that when DirecTV struck the latest dea with TiVo, they sincerely wanted to add a TiVo-based box to their arsenal as a retention/acquistion option, for those subscribers that absolutely HAVE to have TiVo. I say this, because when they struck the new deal with TiVo back in 2008, the old deal wasn't due to expire until sometime in 2010, so there was no gun to their head to do anything at that time.


I think *jac *was simply trying to agree with my speculation when he posted, but I see how his wording can also be construed as confirmation of a theory:



jacmyoung said:


> [...] Your speculation is sound that DirecTV actually wanted to have a new DirecTiVo for retention purpose back in 2008 [...]


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> I don't want to speak for *jacmyoung*, but I think I indirectly started this with my speculation earlier in this thread, in response to another post:
> 
> I thinik *jac *was simply trying to agree with my speculation when he said, but I see how his wording can also be construed as confirmation of a theory:


Yes, the only statement I made with regard to Steve's was that I thought his speculation was a good one, in fact I did not even agree with his speculation, in the next part of my post, I stated that I had my own speculation, which was different than his. Of course I wasn't disagreeing with Steve's speculation either

Neither of our speculations should be construed as fact, neither of us ever implied our speculations are factual, they are however based on facts. Whether the bases of our speculations are reasonable or not is debatable.

Back when we were debating the E* v. TiVo case, there was a rule that all statements would be considered opinions or speculations unless clearly stated as facts, after that rule folks started to get along a little better Maybe the same rule can apply here so we are on the same page going in.

DirecTV has a more attractive DVR fee structure than DISH for folks with multiple DVRs, this is a fact.


----------



## bicker1

Stuart Sweet said:


> Bicker1, perhaps you might choose to take conversations like that to private message. Thanks.


Stuart, what would be nice is if all the attacks on me personally were also taken to private messages, instead of polluting the thread with such detritus. If folks kept to the topic - discussing, for example, their own perspective on what they think the situation is - and stopped posting personal attacks, such as "Bicker1 does not have expectations in life", I think the thread would be better served.

If folks have something to say about my comments, because you have a different perspective, then please do share that. If folks have something to say about me, because they don't like that someone disagrees with them, then those folks can please keep that to themselves.

As moderator, I would hope you would help folks present opposing viewpoints without being personally attacked - really ganged up on, given how so many people in this thread adhere to just the one side of these issues. If this is to be a one-sided, TiVo-bashing only thread, then let's declare that, and have another thread for providing the balance that would be missing from this thread.


----------



## bicker1

TiVo has about 500 employees total. It's not a small company, but it just barely qualifies as small-to-medium sized.


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## hdtvfan0001

bicker1 said:


> TiVo has about 500 employees total. It's not a small company, but it just barely qualifies as small-to-medium sized.


My division has that many folks.

Then again...TiVo is really a mid-size company focused on 1 primary goal - recorded content software, distributed on hardware supplied by 3rd party vendors. For that reason...TiVo is a big player, as they have few peers.

That would also make the vulnerable to takeover, not to mention insolvency due to legal challenges. They've already almost gone under twice in the past 6 years. Their ride has been a roller-coaster with the lawsuits.

On the other hand, if that is their core competency...you'd think they would know how to manage and deliver the primary product that they offer.

Unfortunately, delaying delivery by 2+ years past a target date demonstrates they do not have their act together.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Heck we have three times that in my building alone, and ten times that just working first shift. :lol: 

The SBA uses number of employees and/or revenue to determine size. It seems based on their tables TiVo would be considered a small company by the number of employees, but they would be an order of magnitude more then what they would consider small by revenue.

I honestly have no idea what that’s supposed to mean when it comes to their ability to produce a product for use in another company’s hardware. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## jacmyoung

bicker1 said:


> ...If folks have something to say about my comments, because you have a different perspective, then please do share that. If folks have something to say about me, because they don't like that someone disagrees with them, then those folks can please keep that to themselves...


When you insist others are wrong for having expectations, therefore should not blame anyone for the delay, then don't be surprised such life "perspective" maybe under "attack."

This thread is about speculations about the new DirecTiVo, and it is a fact it has been late time after time, it is natural that after such delay people want to blame those that are responsible for the delay.

Since you do not dispute that TiVo is responsible for the delay because by your own theory, it is a possibility TiVo has put this project on the back burner, for TiVo's own interest, at the expense of the interest of the DirecTV subs who are still waiting for the new DVR, then you only added fuel to the fire, logically you should have expected folks to blame TiVo more, not less, in part because of your own theory.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unfortunately, delaying delivery by 2+ years past a target date demonstrates they do not have their act together.


To be fair, we are only delayed 7 months at present and personally I would have been willing to call them on-time if they had something to show (even a public demo) by the end of Q1/2010. We're now 4 months past that. Even a year from today TiVo won't be 2 years late on the new DIRECTV Tivo.

That being said, TiVo has been 2+ years late on other products. If bicker1's point is that we're all stupid to believe anything TiVo says .. well, I can almost wrap my head around that. However, all we have to go on is what TiVo tells us. As a "We used to have as many fanboys as Apple" company, you'd think that they'd wanna deal in honesty to some degree.


----------



## gregjones

The few facts out there have been stated repetitively. Accept that all statements beyond the press releases are analysis based on sound or unsound logic and get over it. The product does not exist yet, nor has it been spotted in any form of development build. The development is most definitely in TiVo's hands. For whatever reason, they are well behind their stated intentions per the original release.

TiVo made an implicit (resource constraint) or explicit (reprioritization) decision to let it get this far behind.

Now let's spend more time speaking about the possibilities and implications of its eventual availability and less time making pointless observations about each other's rhetorical style. I could really care less if you value my observations. But I do grow tired of reading several pages of bickering that has less and less to do with the topic.


----------



## Sixto

If the delay is because of a transition to a newer hardware base (HR24?), and/or to get MRV playing with HR2x MRV, and/or to include every feature from the HR2x line that was new since the HR10-250 (MPEG4, SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21 ...), then the simple answer may be that it just took longer then expected. There's MUCH to implement if the goal is parity+ with the HR2x line.

We'll see soon enough ... probably within the next 6 months.

Personally, it sure seems like they're spending $2.5M per quarter on significant development, and they haven't let up for 15+ months.

Maybe we'll even be surprised with the result ... also maybe not ... but it will be fun to at least evaluate what they ship.

And again ... all that will matter is features and price. The delay will be forgotten if they ship some awesome box with minimal price delta ... but then again, maybe they won't.

We'll see ...


----------



## bidger

I can't help but wonder, mostly because the situation applies to me, how folks that bought Lifetime DVR on a DirecTV w/ TiVo while it was available will be handled. We know that TiVo wants and expects higher revenue if and when this new unit is released. However, since I purchased Lifetime Service on a Hughes GXCEBOT in Mar. 2001, I've upgraded and replaced DVRs several times and there's been no change to that status. Now, I'm not all that psyched about a new TiVo for DirecTV...at least not until all the details are released, but I know there are folks in the same situation who feel differently. Do they revise the TOS to preclude Lifetimers from transfers prior to the release of the TiVo unit? That wouldn't set well. If the unit comes to fruition, it'll be interesting to see how that gets handled.


----------



## grooves12

jacmyoung said:


> Had DISH relented and settled with TiVo, paying a fee to TiVo, it would have made it more costly for DISH to do the DVR business, hence less competitive. Today DirecTV's DVR fee is still much less than DISH. The impact is very obvious, a lot of us are DirecTV DVR subs in part because of the lower DVR fees.


Really? Dish's DVR fee is $6 vs. $7 for DirecTV...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

grooves12 said:


> Really? Dish's DVR fee is $6 vs. $7 for DirecTV...


I thought the ViP 722 is like $17/mo for DVR and whole home use...for each unit...where it's $7 + $3 or $10 for as many DVRs as you can handle.

Is the DVR fee with Dish per account or per DVR?

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

We have several threads for the outcome of the Dish v. TiVo suit. Let's not turn this into one of them.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> To be fair, we are only delayed 7 months at present and personally I would have been willing to call them on-time if they had something to show (even a public demo) by the end of Q1/2010. We're now 4 months past that. Even a year from today TiVo won't be 2 years late on the new DIRECTV Tivo.


How's that?

Moving from 3Q 2009 to 2Q 2011 would be virtually 2 years late...give or take a month or two.

But rather than pursue that line of discussion...let's just agree that it's certain to be a year or more...so the key points remain - *they* are quite late, and *they* are the ones behind schedule in the delivery.


----------



## CuriousMark

Sixto said:


> If the delay is because of a transition to a newer hardware base (HR24?), and/or to get MRV playing with HR2x MRV, and/or to include every feature from the HR2x line that was new since the HR10-250 (MPEG4, SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21 ...), then the simple answer may be that it just took longer then expected. There's MUCH to implement if the goal is parity+ with the HR2x line.


There are some reasons to believe that this might be the case.

Stand alone TiVo users have been crying for TiVo to develop a streaming MRV solution. Letting DTV fund that development makes good sense.
TiVo has deals internationally to port to Technicolor hardware. Perhaps DTV wants the TiVo software to run on all flavors (-xxx) of DVRs just like their in house software does. TiVo would gain in getting the port to -100 going sooner than otherwise. (Assuming the international box is even close, which it may well not be)
MPEG4, SWM, and Interactive make sense, the box needs to work in the DTV environment and those are now givens. I don't have a clue what DoD or AM21 are so without clarification I can't venture a guess what might motivate TiVo to really want to include them.



> Maybe we'll even be surprised with the result ... also maybe not ... but it will be fun to at least evaluate what they ship.


I hope so.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CuriousMark said:


> There are some reasons to believe that this might be the case.
> 
> Stand alone TiVo users have been crying for TiVo to develop a streaming MRV solution. Letting DTV fund that development makes good sense.
> TiVo has deals internationally to port to Technicolor hardware. Perhaps DTV wants the TiVo software to run on all flavors (-xxx) of DVRs just like their in house software does. TiVo would gain in getting the port to -100 going sooner than otherwise. (Assuming the international box is even close, which it may well not be)
> MPEG4, SWM, and Interactive make sense, the box needs to work in the DTV environment and those are now givens. I don't have a clue what DoD or AM21 are so without clarification I can't venture a guess what might motivate TiVo to really want to include them.


If its indeed the kind of scope creep you described....they should have level-set the new expectations accordingly, rather than just trudge forward and look foolish. It would obviously have raised the costs considerably as well, typically requiring a business/pricing model re-examination.

I'm still using the yardstick of how they have performed in their deliveries before...which is also behind schedule as a rule.


----------



## Sixto

CuriousMark said:


> ... I don't have a clue what DoD or AM21 are so without clarification I can't venture a guess what might motivate TiVo to really want to include them ...


DoD = DirecTV on Demand.

AM21 = External OTA support via USB.


----------



## gregjones

CuriousMark said:


> There are some reasons to believe that this might be the case.
> 
> Stand alone TiVo users have been crying for TiVo to develop a streaming MRV solution. Letting DTV fund that development makes good sense.
> TiVo has deals internationally to port to Technicolor hardware. Perhaps DTV wants the TiVo software to run on all flavors (-xxx) of DVRs just like their in house software does. TiVo would gain in getting the port to -100 going sooner than otherwise. (Assuming the international box is even close, which it may well not be)
> MPEG4, SWM, and Interactive make sense, the box needs to work in the DTV environment and those are now givens. I don't have a clue what DoD or AM21 are so without clarification I can't venture a guess what might motivate TiVo to really want to include them.
> 
> I hope so.


This would be the equivalent of not eating for a week because your favorite meal took two weeks to prepare and you weren't done yet.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> How's that?
> 
> Moving from 2Q 2009 to 1Q 2011 would be virtually 2 years late...give or take a month or two.
> 
> But rather than pursue that line of discussion...let's just agree that it's certain to be a year or more...so the key points remain - *they* are quite late, and *they* are the ones behind schedule in the delivery.


The Press Release said 2H 2009, not 2Q 2009. 12/31/2009 would have met the letter of the Press Release. That was only 7 months ago (almost to the day).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:



> The Press Release said 2H 2009, not 2Q 2009. 12/31/2009 would have met the letter of the Press Release. That was only 7 months ago (almost to the day).


Ok....we can bicker...July is 2nd half...and that's a year already...going on 13 months any day now... :lol:

That was fun. 

So I'll agree with you and say its late...at this point...enough late to be significant. The specific months don't really matter I suppose.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> If the delay is because of a transition to a newer hardware base (HR24?), and/or to get MRV playing with HR2x MRV, and/or to include every feature from the HR2x line that was new since the HR10-250 (MPEG4, SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21 ...), then the simple answer may be that it just took longer then expected. There's MUCH to implement if the goal is parity+ with the HR2x line.


I'd say MPEG4 and SWiM are a given .. outside of that ...



> We'll see soon enough ... probably within the next 6 months.
> 
> ...
> 
> Maybe we'll even be surprised with the result ... also maybe not ...


I'm leaning towards "surprise" but peppered with disappointment.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I'd say MPEG4 and SWiM are a given .. outside of that ...
> I'm leaning towards "surprise" but peppered with disappointment.


Agreed.

I'm back in the Brott Fanboy Camp.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Ok....we can bicker...July is 2nd half...and that's a year already...going on 13 months any day now... :lol:
> 
> That was fun.
> 
> So I'll agree with you and say its late...at this point...enough late to be significant. The specific months don't really matter I suppose.


But you said 2+ years .. if you'd have said nearly 2 years I might let that slide since it will almost certainly be 1+ years at this point.

I do have a high confidence level that there will be something at CES2011. If there isn't, then I can assure you that priorities have changed @ TiVo. I'm almost positive that they are demo-ready today, but we all know the demo version doesn't mean it's ready for consumers. However, being demo-ready now is much farther down the road than they were for CES2010.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> But you said 2+ years .. if you'd have said nearly 2 years I might let that slide since it will almost certainly be 1+ years at this point.
> 
> *I do have a high confidence level that there will be something at CES2011*. If there isn't, then I can assure you that priorities have changed @ TiVo. I'm almost positive that they are demo-ready today, but we all know the demo version doesn't mean it's ready for consumers. However, being demo-ready now is much farther down the road than they were for CES2010.


I'm gonna hold ya to that since I'll be there. :lol:


----------



## CuriousMark

Sixto said:


> DoD = DirecTV on Demand.
> 
> AM21 = External OTA support via USB.


Thanks. Well DoD has always been anounced as part of the package. It is also to be integrated into the TiVo search so that finding on Demand content will be TiVo easy.

OTA, I am not sure about. They should want it as all their standalone DVRs support it, but since it is an outboard device, it is the kind of thing that is easy to leave out of the first release and add later if both sides want it. So it is really hard to say if this one would be compelling to TiVo or not.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> OTA, I am not sure about. They should want it as all their standalone DVRs support it, but since it is an outboard device, it is the kind of thing that is easy to leave out of the first release and add later if both sides want it. So it is really hard to say if this one would be compelling to TiVo or not.


It's even less compelling today than it was when it first came to the HR2x as DIRECTV now has many, many more locals on the sat now than it did previously.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> I'm leaning towards "surprise" but peppered with disappointment.


+1,000,000


----------



## CuriousMark

Sixto said:


> Maybe we'll even be surprised with the result


That is what I hope. 


Doug Brott said:


> I'm leaning towards "surprise" but peppered with disappointment.


That is what I fear.

I sure wish they would provide some information so we could set our expectations based on fact instead of guesswork.


----------



## Doug Brott

CuriousMark said:


> That is what I fear.
> 
> I sure wish they would provide some information so we could set our expectations based on fact instead of guesswork.


I'm trying to temper your expectation ...


----------



## jacmyoung

With respect to the possibility that the new DirecTiVo might be based on the even newer DirecTV DVR platform such as the HR24, with the additional features to match the HR24, it would likely require additional funding from DirecTV, in addition to the $11.5M and on-going payments. So far DirecTV seems to only have fulfilled the minimum payments to TiVo strictly based on the agreement, which if I recall correctly did not anticipate the use of the newest DirecTV DVR platforms and the additional features.

Therefore for the speculation to be sound, that TiVo is single-handedly (because DirecTV is not paying more) trying to bring the new DirecTiVo to the level that is much above what the agreement had specified, one must have a completely different perspective on TiVo, a confidence in TiVo so high that even bicker1 had not thought about such theory. But anything is possible, it will indeed be a good news if true.

The question is though, even if TiVo far exceeds the expectation of most folks here, brings us a new DirecTiVo that is built on the newest and best hardware DirecTV can provide, with the features to match DirecTV's own DVRs, would people still want to pay a surcharge to get it?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

My answer to that would be, "no."


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> The question is though, even if TiVo far exceeds the expectation of most folks here, brings us a new DirecTiVo that is built on the newest and best hardware DirecTV can provide, with the features to match DirecTV's own DVRs, would people still want to pay a surcharge to get it?


If $3 for Whole Home DVR Service got folks flustered, I suspect a surcharge of a higher number (which is likely) for just having Tivo's UI and device would seem to probably meet with similar disfavor.

Add in a layer for the fact that since the project was launched, the new TiVo unit will now be competing in a world that includes newer, faster, more robust hardware directly.

Based on that bigger view, I'd be inclined to share the views of others here that it will be less of a "big event" and less of an "impact" in terms of deployment than it would have been 1 or more years ago.

Time to market is always a key to success, and in many ways, TiVo has already missed the boat.


----------



## hancox

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If $3 for Whole Home DVR Service got folks flustered, I suspect a surcharge of a higher number (which is likely) for just having Tivo's UI and device would seem to probably meet with similar disfavor.


I disagree. Lots of the "flustering" was because competitors had similar products for varying degrees of "free."

The Tivo surcharge, by comparison, will likely be CHEAPER, when compared to the standalone. Now, the big question is, how close will it be, feature-wise?

At least, it will be a closer comparison. I continue to stick to my guns, and do without MRV, because I don't see the value in it, against the increase in my bill. That may change, if my value proposition changes (another DVR/receiver, HMC, etc).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hancox said:


> I disagree. Lots of the "flustering" was because competitors had similar products for varying degrees of "free."
> 
> *The TiVo surcharge, by comparison, will likely be CHEAPER*, when compared to the standalone. Now, the big question is, how close will it be, feature-wise?


I'm not sure there is either the precedent nor business case to speculate that a TiVo surcharge will be less than $3.

If anything, experience shows it could be more in the $5 - $10 range, not to mention that with a longer development cycle and higher corresponding costs, the return of the overall project investment is a greater challenge.


----------



## Sixto

Late is late, 6 months, a year, whatever ...

They may have now missed the sweet spot for mass appeal, but it will depend on what they ship, and how it's priced.

Have lived through enough product introductions to know that when everyone is concerned about a date slippage, that the only thing that eventually matters is features (compared to the competition) and price.

While it may seem unlikely that they'll blow us away with features, it sure will be nice to evaluate what gets shipped. Personally, I always keep an open mind until proven otherwise.

In the meantime, we get to enjoy the HR24, which from my perspective is GREAT.

But competition is good.

Ship a TiVo with DirecTV MRV interoperability and full TiVo Desktop support and it might be cool to play with.

Until then, the HR24 is king ... and even after, the HR24 may be king ... but always keeping an open mind for anything new ... this isn't DirecTV vs FiOS, or DirecTV vs Cable ... this is all within the DirecTV "family".


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> With respect to the possibility that the new DirecTiVo might be based on the even newer DirecTV DVR platform such as the HR24, with the additional features to match the HR24, it would likely require additional funding from DirecTV, in addition to the $11.5M and on-going payments. So far DirecTV seems to only have fulfilled the minimum payments to TiVo strictly based on the agreement, which if I recall correctly did not anticipate the use of the newest DirecTV DVR platforms and the additional features.
> 
> Therefore for the speculation to be sound, that TiVo is single-handedly (because DirecTV is not paying more) trying to bring the new DirecTiVo to the level that is much above what the agreement had specified, one must have a completely different perspective on TiVo, a confidence in TiVo so high that even bicker1 had not thought about such theory. But anything is possible, it will indeed be a good news if true.
> 
> The question is though, even if TiVo far exceeds the expectation of most folks here, brings us a new DirecTiVo that is built on the newest and best hardware DirecTV can provide, with the features to match DirecTV's own DVRs, would people still want to pay a surcharge to get it?


It's never been confirmed what hardware platform TiVo would use. The press release and SEC documents were vague. There may have also been a case where the word "new" was used. There certainly has been speculation that the code would be based on an HR23 platform, but nothing confirmed.

Relative to the $11.5M spent over a 15 month period, there's been no confirmation of that amount being set upfront. We can guess, but we have no idea if the amount rose along the way. Also, it's been referenced that DirecTV gets some of that back by reduced fees going forward.

Edit (here's the quote): On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a *new* HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo service. Under the terms of this non−exclusive arrangement, TiVo is developing a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR which TiVo is working with DIRECTV with the intention to deploy this product to consumers later this year.​


----------



## tonyd79

CuriousMark said:


> I sure wish they would provide some information so we could set our expectations based on fact instead of guesswork.


Wouldn't matter. I learned in this thread that until they start taking orders they can change anything they want, so any announcement of features would be meaningless and of no value to anyone whether they deliver or not.


----------



## hancox

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm not sure there is either the precedent nor business case to speculate that a TiVo surcharge will be less than $3.
> 
> If anything, experience shows it could be more in the $5 - $10 range, not to mention that with a longer development cycle and higher corresponding costs, the return of the overall project investment is a greater challenge.


You misread my comparison. Compared to a standalone TIVO, not a d* dvr.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> Late is late, 6 months, a year, whatever ...
> 
> They may have now missed the sweet spot for mass appeal, but it will depend on what they ship, and how it's priced [...]


As we know, the new agreement states TiVo will get "significantly more" than what they were getting under the old agreement, and I believe that was about $1 per subscriber per month.

My guess is DirecTV will charge the same up-front price as they do for HR's, but tack on a monthly subscriber fee of $2.95, similar to Comcast's TiVo household upcharge in the Boston area.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> It's never been confirmed what hardware platform TiVo would use. The press release and SEC documents were vague. There may have also been a case where the word "new" was used. There certainly has been speculation that the code would be based on an HR23 platform, but nothing confirmed.


Based on the initial anticipated rollout time, it would not have been based on the HR24 platform.



> Relative to the $11.5M spent over a 15 month period, there's been no confirmation of that amount being set upfront. We can guess, but we have no idea if the amount rose along the way. Also, it's been referenced that DirecTV gets some of that back by reduced fees going forward.


I don't think they have since amended the new agreement, based on all indications both parties seem to be doing the minimum just not to violate the agreement. So I think it is reasonable to speculate the $11.5M is at least very close to what was spelled out in the agreement.

If the delay has to do with the effort on both sides to incorporate the latest hardware and features, we should have heard them mentioning it.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Based on the initial anticipated rollout time, it would not have been based on the HR24 platform [...]


Just because we didn't see an HR24 before 2010, I seriously doubt DirecTV didn't have prototypes a year earlier. These boxes don't just happen overnight.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> Just because we didn't see an HR24 before 2010, I seriously doubt DirecTV didn't have prototypes a year earlier. These boxes don't just happen overnight.


I did not say they did not have an HR24 prototype back then, what I said was, based on the initial anticipated new DirecTiVo rollout time of the end of 09, they likely did not plan to have it based on the HR24.

They might have since considered the HR24 platform for the new DirecTiVo, if so a lot more needs to be put into the agreement, including the likely increased cost. And if the theory is correct that incorporating the new HR24 hardware had caused the delay, it only underscores the difficulty in such new effort.

In any event this being the case, TiVo would have been quick to point it out already.


----------



## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> I did not say they did not have an HR24 prototype back then, what I said was, based on the initial anticipated new DirecTiVo rollout time of the end of 09, they likely did not plan to have it based on the HR24


But you don't know if DirecTV projected releasing the HR24 by the end of '09, at the time they negotiated the new deal.

TiVo must have known there was a new box coming out, because the existing HR21/22/23 platform was the same as the then current TiVoHD platform, so that would have been the quickest port (path of least resistance) for them. The fact it didn't happen tells me they want to use the 24.



> They might have since considered the HR24 platform for the new DirecTiVo, if so a lot more needs to be put into the agreement, including the likely increased cost.


I don't know how you can draw that conclusion based on the language in the new agreement, which is repeated in this company statement:



> On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo service. Under the terms of this non−exclusive arrangement, TiVo is developing a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR which TiVo is working with DIRECTV with the intention to deploy this product to consumers later this year.


----------



## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> But you don't know if DirecTV projected releasing the HR24 by the end of '09, at the time they negotiated the new deal.


Based on the actual HR24 rollout date this year, DirecTV would not have told us back in 2008 that the new DirecTiVo was anticipated by Q2 of 2009, had they planned it to be based on the HR24 hardware. It would have been a reckless statement.



> TiVo must have known there was a new box coming out, because the existing HR21/22/23 platform was the same as the then current TiVoHD platform, so that would have been the quickest port (path of least resistance) for them. The fact it didn't happen tells me they want to use the 24.


The initial Q2/09 date indicated that they had likely planned for the quickest porting route, which again points away from the HR24 hardware. The fact it didn't happen could be that they later changed their mind, decided to use the HR24 hardware, or simply they decided to put the project on the back burner. But neither speculation disputes the assertion that the initial plan likely did not envision the HR24 platform.



> I don't know how you can draw that conclusion based on the language in the new agreement, which is repeated in this company statement:


I did not draw any firm conclusion, only to speculate that if later they decided to change to the HR24 platform, it would likely have increased the cost, which naturally could have required some amendment of the agreement, but more importantly if the delay were to make a better, newer DVR, TiVo would have been quick to point it out.

But as I said, I am not dismissing any of the speculations, only to ask which ones maybe more logical, others less.


----------



## ejjames

My parents still use a 10-250 in their livingroom, with a HR20-100 in the theater room. I have always trumpeted tivo...but visiting them and actually using it again? I realized I could be much faster with the directv box.


----------



## Doug Brott

ejjames said:


> My parents still use a 10-250 in their livingroom, with a HR20-100 in the theater room. I have always trumpeted tivo...but visiting them and actually using it again? I realized I could be much faster with the directv box.


This is my problem with using the TiVo these days. I'm actually much more fluent in HR2x now than I am in TiVo. I still have a TiVo that my daughter uses and I have to re-learn what to do every time I go in there. It's truly not as intuitive as one would think on the surface. Heck, I thought it was intuitive, but I struggle to find things now which means that a "dummy" isn't going to grab a TiVo remote and find 100% success.

That being said, If your parents are happy with the HR10-250, then they will likely be happy with the new TiVo as well (with the added benefit of HD access to SAT channels).


----------



## bicker1

jacmyoung said:


> When you insist others are wrong for having expectations


I simply expressed my perspective that holding unfounded expectations like that is not defensible. You've perverted that into a moralistic "wrong". Let's stick to arguing about what I actually did write.



jacmyoung said:


> therefore should not blame anyone for the delay, then don't be surprised such life "perspective" maybe under "attack."


No sorry, there is no excuse for attacking a poster personally (see example, above) for disagreeing with another poster's perspective.

How much do you want to beat this dead horse? I'm a vegetarian, so I really object to such animal abuse. :-\



bidger said:


> Do they revise the TOS to preclude Lifetimers from transfers prior to the release of the TiVo unit? That wouldn't set well. If the unit comes to fruition, it'll be interesting to see how that gets handled.


Who's your lifetime contract with, specifically? TiVo or DirecTV?



CuriousMark said:


> I sure wish they would provide some information so we could set our expectations based on fact instead of guesswork.


Your instinct in this regard is exactly what I was referring to all along: Consumers can only reasonable set our expectations based on the information they provide. Rhetorical Q: If they provide no information, what expectations should we set?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

OK, here's the public warning:

This is a thread for pro/con discussion of the TiVo unit. I don't care which point of view you take, but keep to that topic and that topic alone. 

This is not a thread for anyone to pick a fight with anyone. Discussions are great, pointing out your opinion of someone else is not. 

This is your first and final warning. I will ban anyone from this thread at will for personal attacks of any kind. Take personal discussions to private message, period. 

Thank you.


----------



## CuriousMark

bicker1 said:


> Rhetorical Q: If they provide no information, what expectations should we set?


I know you aren't looking for an answer, but the question does provide food for thought. For me, it is what we are doing in this thread, trying to make as educated a guess about what the feature may or may not be. Mostly I do this for fun, but I may use those best guesses in my buying decision. Those guesses may turn out to be wrong, but that is OK. If I use them I know they are only guesses. I have the choice to wait too and base my buying decision on reality. If I charge ahead and set myself up for disappointment, it won't be TiVo or Dish I will be disappointed in, it will be my impatience.


----------



## rayik

jacmyoung said:


> The question is though, even if TiVo far exceeds the expectation of most folks here, brings us a new DirecTiVo that is built on the newest and best hardware DirecTV can provide, with the features to match DirecTV's own DVRs, would people still want to pay a surcharge to get it?


1 1/2 years ago - yes up to $10 / month.

Today, after using a HR23 for 1 1/2 years, no. Not a penny more.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can tell you a little about my expectations, and they're pretty low.


----------



## itzme

rayik said:


> 1 1/2 years ago - yes up to $10 / month.
> 
> Today, after using a HR23 for 1 1/2 years, no. Not a penny more.


I was a huge Tivo fanboy, and I feel the same way. I wouldn't pay a surcharge. Happy with my HR21 and two HR24s now.


----------



## bidger

bicker1 said:


> Who's your lifetime contract with, specifically? TiVo or DirecTV?


It's Lifetime DVR service through DirecTV as long as I remain a customer, but it was only possible as a DirecTV w/ TiVo subscriber. There were no similar offers for UltimateTV subs.


----------



## bicker1

CuriousMark said:


> Those guesses may turn out to be wrong, but* that is OK*.


Absolutely.



CuriousMark said:


> If I use them I know they are only guesses. I have the choice to wait too and base my buying decision on reality. If I charge ahead and set myself up for disappointment, it won't be TiVo or Dish I will be disappointed in, it will be my impatience.


Yes, very well-said.



bidger said:


> It's Lifetime DVR service through DirecTV as long as I remain a customer


It sounds like your agreement with DirecTV says that you can transfer your lifetime service to whatever future DirecTiVo ever gets released. That would be more generous than the way I remember that being worded, but it's been years since I've dug into it deep enough for my memory to be clear enough. Unless the new agreement with TiVo specifically covers this, based on the way they've been handling related issues in recent years, I expect that TiVo would insist on a cash payment from DirecTV for each transfer.


----------



## Doug Brott

bicker1 said:


> It sounds like your agreement with DirecTV says that you can transfer your lifetime service to whatever future DirecTiVo ever gets released. That would be more generous than the way I remember that being worded, but it's been years since I've dug into it deep enough for my memory to be clear enough. Unless the new agreement with TiVo specifically covers this, based on the way they've been handling related issues in recent years, I expect that TiVo would insist on a cash payment from DirecTV for each transfer.


DIRECTV "bought" all of the support for Lifetime DVR service from TiVo long ago. At this point "Lifetime" is the life of the account and has nothing to do with a specific DVR.

Yes, it is unclear what that means to the new DIRECTV TiVo .. It may be included, or there may be a new "TiVo service" fee above and beyond the "DVR service" fee. I don't think anyone will know until there is an announcement.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV "bought" all of the support for Lifetime DVR service from TiVo long ago. At this point "Lifetime" is the life of the account and has nothing to do with a specific DVR.
> 
> Yes, it is unclear what that means to the new DIRECTV TiVo .. It may be included, or there may be a new "TiVo service" fee above and beyond the "DVR service" fee. I don't think anyone will know until there is an announcement.


I would think something should be inlcuded. Those that paid for lifetime should get something for their money. IMHO, they should get something akin to what they thought they were paying for.

Otherwise it almost seems like a scam. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## bidger

Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV "bought" all of the support for Lifetime DVR service from TiVo long ago. At this point "Lifetime" is the life of the account and has nothing to do with a specific DVR.


And, needless to say, it's one of the best (if not the best) investments I ever made.



Doug Brott said:


> Yes, it is unclear what that means to the new DIRECTV TiVo .. It may be included, or there may be a new "TiVo service" fee above and beyond the "DVR service" fee. I don't think anyone will know until there is an announcement.


I do recall seeing folks post on here after the TiVo S3 release and the Lifetime Service Transfer offer, coupled with doubt we'd ever see another HD DirecTiVo, calling to have the Service transferred to the S3. Some were successful, I guess, and it seemed to depend on which company you activated Lifetime through, DirecTV or TiVo. I did it through DirecTV when I activated the unit.

Anyway, I do think some followed their DVR platform choice, but I've found the Lifetime DVR to be an excellent retention incentive. Just one more thing that can be guessed about.


----------



## DogLover

MicroBeta said:


> I would think something should be inlcuded. Those that paid for lifetime should get something for their money. IMHO, they should get something akin to what they thought they were paying for.
> 
> Otherwise it almost seems like a scam. :shrug:
> 
> Mike


I know this doesn't apply to everyone with lifetime, but when I purchased it for my SAT-T60 it was specifically for the lifetime of that receiver, with no mention that it would be transferable. (That was pre-2 tuner activation.) Sometime after it was transferred to DIRECTV, and before I lease my first HR20, it was changed by DIRECTV to be tied to the account. I've already gotten more out of it than I expected when I paid for it.

I know others may have had different conditions when they purchased their lifetime.


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## hdtvfan0001

I read somewhere that the new HD Tivo unit was code-named KS25-700.


----------



## bicker1

MicroBeta said:


> IMHO, they should get something akin to what they thought they were paying for.


The problem with that threshold is that consumers very often will "think" they were paying for whatever they wish was offered to them, rather than what was actually offered to them. It's this tendency that prompts airline passengers to get irate when they end up with different seat assignments on an airline flight because of a change of equipment, and prompts cable television subscribers to get irate when their favorite channel is moved to a higher tier of service: They thought they were paying for X when in reality they were paying for a lot less.

The prevailing threshold for what consumers should get is what they were _actually_ promised, not what they _thought _they were promised.



bidger said:


> Some were successful, I guess, and it seemed to depend on which company you activated Lifetime through, DirecTV or TiVo.


But didn't they pay a transfer fee? It was a while ago so I don't recall it clearly.


----------



## bidger

bicker1 said:


> But didn't they pay a transfer fee? It was a while ago so I don't recall it clearly.


Honestly, neither do I. What I do recall is that months prior to the release of TiVo S3, TiVo chose to remove Lifetime as a subscription option. It caused an uproar at TCF. When they released the S3, I think they came to understand that lack of Lifetime could hurt sales for those who aren't hard-core TiVotees, so they offered a limited Lifetime transfer plan for $199, but it did make quite a few folks gun shy since, coupled with the cost of the S3, it totaled ~ $1,000. I just recall a couple of posters here, probably @ TCF as well, looking to meet the Dec. 31st deadline.


----------



## fernly

My google alert caught an investor report at schaeffer research (I'm not allowed to post URLs yet, but if I could, it might look like schaeffersresearch, dot, com, slash, commentary, slash, observations.aspx?ID=101475) about increased options activity on both Tivo and Directv. The report (whose URL I can't post) says in part,


> Last week, speculation mounted rumors that TiVo Inc.'s (TIVO) technology could make an appearance on Apple Inc.'s (AAPL) "Apple TV" using the same streaming technology TIVO has become synonymous with; however, rumors of the deal have since died down.


and going on to describe trading on TiVo stock using language I frankly don't understand (anyone want to translate it?).

The report also notes increased options activity on DirecTV but relates it to the earnings report expected today (8/5), with quite of bit of "shorting" meaning investors betting that earnings will not be good.


----------



## gregjones

fernly said:


> My google alert caught an investor report at schaeffer research (I'm not allowed to post URLs yet, but if I could, it might look like schaeffersresearch, dot, com, slash, commentary, slash, observations.aspx?ID=101475) about increased options activity on both Tivo and Directv. The report (whose URL I can't post) says in part,and going on to describe trading on TiVo stock using language I frankly don't understand (anyone want to translate it?).
> 
> The report also notes increased options activity on DirecTV but relates it to the earnings report expected today (8/5), with quite of bit of "shorting" meaning investors betting that earnings will not be good.


I tend to discount anything approximating technical information obtained through financial analyst posts. These guys are paid to make good predictions. Most make so many predictions that some have to be correct, out of sheer statistical inertia.


----------



## fernly

Well the ones who went short on DTV expecting earnings below expectations -- were wrong. Per the earnings call transcript (whose URL I'd post if I were allowed, but it's easy to find) they added lots of subscribers, lost fewer than before, and cash flow and revenue increased year-over-year and beat expectations.

There's a lot of talk about how they "manage" the "churn" which is interesting in the light of several people on this thread who've talked about leaving DTV for Uverse, FIOS &etc. Apparently DTV has placed emphasis on trying to retain the "high-value" customers who call in to cancel -- meaning the ones with lots of options and a DVR. Apparently they've had results from this emphasis.

There's even a note in the earnings call about Michael White being on "Undercover Boss" next season.

But nothing at all was said about Tivo in this call.

Tivo's Q2 earnings call is scheduled for 8/25.


----------



## Doug Brott

I didn't get a chance to listen to the Earnings Call this time (very busy this past week), but I'm not surprised that TiVo never came up. DIRECTV is already getting what they want out of this deal regardless of when the new TiVo shows up.


----------



## gregjones

fernly said:


> There's a lot of talk about how they "manage" the "churn" which is interesting in the light of several people on this thread who've talked about leaving DTV for Uverse, FIOS &etc.


The folks here cannot be construed to be a representative sample.


----------



## fernly

> The folks here cannot be construed to be a representative sample.


No, not hardly! However, they are pretty much exactly what the DTV people described as "high value" customers: with DVRs and HD and other options. What they meant by "managing the churn" was that they were having their service reps try harder to retain those high value types, and just say "ok, sorry, bye" to the low-value leavers. So knowing that this is the policy, the high-value subscriber can count on having good leverage when calling with a complaint.


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## Stuart Sweet

Sometimes being very technical doesn't make you high-value. Sometimes it makes you a smart shopper and likely to spend less.


----------



## bicker1

Precisely. :yesman:


----------



## john18

I never owned a Tivo. I owned two Replay units, in fact was a very early adopter to that platform and because of that I always received excellent pricing from them, which kept me loyal. I disliked Tivo because, IMO, their slick marketing undermined Replay's superior technology.

With all of that said, I wonder just what might be the experience of a D* Tivo vs. Replay vs. a HR2x?


----------



## R8ders2K

FWIW, I've tried asking about D* and ReplayTV, but I get the impression that D* bought ReplayTV for it patents.

I agree, D* could benefit from the ReplayTV UI. 

To bad we can access content on our ReplayTVs from our networked D* receivers and vice versa...


----------



## am7crew

vaporware.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

am7crew said:


> vaporware.


I wouldn't be surprised but I think it's premature to make that call.

Mike


----------



## smiddy

am7crew said:


> vaporware.


Nah, they are working on it...though the last thing I heard was they are working a lot of the T's and C's and the expectation is sometime 1Q 2011 from one source, though another source said they would be here as of the Summer of 2010...but the summer is running out.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

At this point my prediction of 1Q11 is beginning to seem far-fetched, since we haven't seen so much as a prototype.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart, since you've been a better predictor than I on this matter, I may have to just follow the leader this time.


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point my prediction of 1Q11 is beginning to seem far-fetched, since we haven't seen so much as a prototype.


Still valid, IMHO. Just remember that '11' could be '2111'


----------



## Curtis52

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point my prediction of 1Q11 is beginning to seem far-fetched, since we haven't seen so much as a prototype.


TiVo's 2Q11 just ended.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Curtis52 said:


> TiVo's 2Q11 just ended.


Wow...I must be in a time machine back here in 3Q 2010.


----------



## Curtis52

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Wow...I must be in a time machine back here in 3Q 2010.


This is TiVo's FY2011.


----------



## ATARI

Curtis52 said:


> This is TiVo's FY2011.


Strange, but true.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Not strange, I understand the 2011 fiscal year begins 7/1/10 for many companies. I'd like to say again that my original prediction was for the first quarter of calendar year 2011 and I am now saying that I expect it to be longer than that, if ever.


----------



## bonscott87

Since we still haven't seen even a hint of a prototype let alone anything in beta I totally agree that 1Q11 is looking pretty suspect.

CES in January will be very telling. If there isn't a demo unit there (that is actually working no less) then 1Q12 is in question and frankly I go for the "if ever" part of Stuart's prediction.

I'll be frank in thinking Tivo would save more face by just canceling it vs. it being a total flop it most certainly would be by 2012. By then you'll have probably over 75% of DirecTV's then near 20 million subs all with a DirecTV DVR plus the whole home server unit will be rolled out by then as well. Who but a very small number of die hards will be clambering for a Tivo? Nobody.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Curtis52 said:


> This is TiVo's FY2011.


Fiscal Year means little in terms of a delivery date.


----------



## tonyd79

"bonscott87" said:


> I'll be frank in thinking Tivo would save more face by just canceling it vs. it being a total flop it most certainly would be by 2012.


Maybe they are counting on the Mayans being right.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Here is some perspective from Cable world...
I switched a few months ago to Tivo's new HD box with cable. I still prefer this setup in terms of Amount of HD I get, cost, and some added Tivo features. (I integrated it with my computer network, and watch Tivo shows on my Xbox, on my Pre, and on my Zune - with little effort.) 

However, the software on this box is incomplete. And the updates that get sent about once every month or two, make little noticeable difference. If this box is an example of the current capacity to innovate and produce new software, I have to say I think you folks are going to be waiting A VERY LONG time for a DirecTivo. And if and when you do get one, expect the same quality from it that you did from your first HR20 back in 2007.

If you are a big Tivo fan - I highly recommend you take another look at Cable, if you can, in your area. 

I do MRV to an xbox over wirelessN and its beautiful.


----------



## tonyd79

"jaywdetroit" said:


> Here is some perspective from Cable world...
> I switched a few months ago to Tivo's new HD box with cable. I still prefer this setup in terms of Amount of HD I get, cost, and some added Tivo features. (I integrated it with my computer network, and watch Tivo shows on my Xbox, on my Pre, and on my Zune - with little effort.)
> 
> However, the software on this box is incomplete. And the updates that get sent about once every month or two, make little noticeable difference. If this box is an example of the current capacity to innovate and produce new software, I have to say I think you folks are going to be waiting A VERY LONG time for a DirecTivo. And if and when you do get one, expect the same quality from it that you did from your first HR20 back in 2007.
> 
> If you are a big Tivo fan - I highly recommend you take another look at Cable, if you can, in your area.
> 
> I do MRV to an xbox over wirelessN and its beautiful.


You are seeing what I saw with TiVo when I had my HD TiVo. Stagnation. The most innovative company around went into stall mode.

BTW, I could watch NOTHING on my PCs as comcast set the copy protect flag here. Only OTA came through. Glad it is working for you, though.


----------



## bidger

jaywdetroit said:


> However, the software on this box is incomplete. And the updates that get sent about once every month or two, make little noticeable difference. If this box is an example of the current capacity to innovate and produce new software, I have to say I think you folks are going to be waiting A VERY LONG time for a DirecTivo. And if and when you do get one, expect the same quality from it that you did from your first HR20 back in 2007.


:eek2:

Actually, it was 2006 for me anyway. By 2007 I'd found it stabilized.



jaywdetroit said:


> If you are a big Tivo fan - I highly recommend you take another look at Cable, if you can, in your area.


That kinda contradicts your first statement, but maybe you're referring to having the "complete" TiVo experience.


----------



## jaywdetroit

bidger said:


> :eek2:
> 
> That kinda contradicts your first statement, but maybe you're referring to having the "complete" TiVo experience.


I can see how it seems that way, but yes, I am talking of the whole experience. With the new Tivo, the Series 4, you can turn off the HD menus, and the thing is Extremely FAST with the traditional Tivo menus. Plus you have the internet OnDemand stuff built into it. The concept on the unit is great, they just have been slow to get the HD Menus for all screens completed.

When you combine the traditional Tivo experience with the freedom of CableCard, and the ability to watch *most* shows anywhere (on my system, movies are almost always copy protected, the rest of the shows aren't) all for much less than paying D*, it's great.

My ultimate point to people is this: If you are THAT big of a Tivo fan that you are still on the edge of your seat waiting for Tivo to put out a D* box, it's probably VERY WORTH your time to check out the new Series 4 on cable first. (assuming you have a decent cable system where you live.)


----------



## fernly

In a small sign of life, Tivo just released the previously-promised remote with slide-out keyboard. Favorable reviews at crunchgear and engadget. (edit: Cnet reviews (search at reviews dot cnet dot com) says it is "a must-have remote for owners of compatible TiVo DVRs.")


----------



## ATARI

fernly said:


> In a small sign of life, Tivo just released the previously-promised remote with slide-out keyboard. Favorable reviews at crunchgear and engadget.


Just $89.99.


----------



## markman07

From Tivo's latest call - http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ti...-july-31-2010-2010-08-25?reflink=MW_news_stmp

----
"It is also worth pointing out that our software is being ported onto set-top boxes from multiple device manufacturers including Cisco set-top boxes for both ONO and Virgin and Technicolor set-top boxes for DirecTV and others, and there are additional set-top box providers showing significant interest in similar relationships. The integration of TiVo software onto a set-top box is truly a differentiator for set-top box manufactures looking to gain advanced television solutions deployments with multichannel operators.


----------



## CuriousMark

So it is going onto the -100, we just don't know what to put in front of that dash yet.


----------



## bonscott87

LOL on that quote. It's pretty much the same thing Tivo has been saying for years now...but nothing changes. Good stuff.

By the way I notice a couple interesting sub numbers at the end of the article.

First, they lost another 125K subs in the quarter.
They are down to 1.3 million stand alone subs and just 1.08 million MSO subs which includes DirecTV, Comcast, RCN, etc.

I'd say there must be under 750K DirecTivo's left in service now, if that. Ouch.

By the time they finally get the new DirecTivo for sale there will probably be well under 500K DirecTivo's left. That's pretty low.


----------



## tonyd79

Non-DVR TiVo?


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Non-DVR TiVo?


MRV clients. Mentioned here.


----------



## tonyd79

"Steve" said:


> MRV clients. Mentioned here.


I know. Still odd. Especially since TiVo doesn't do MRV with streaming. They do copy to local DVR.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> They do copy to local DVR.


Apparently no longer, at least on paper.


----------



## Brennok

Yeah the non-DVR TiVo was first mentioned with the whole home DVR they are supposed to be working on for Suddenlink.

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=194168&site=lr_cable


----------



## Sixto

Today:"On top of all this notable momentum in the U.S., *our plan remains to launch DIRECTV by year end* and we are very excited about the impact of this launch of our sub trends."

"It is also worth pointing out that our software is being ported onto set-top boxes from multiple device manufacturers including Cisco set-top boxes for both ONO and Virgin and *Technicolor Thomson set-top boxes for DIRECTV* and others, and there are additional set-top box providers showing significant interest in similar relationships."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/222314-tivo-ceo-discusses-f2q2011-results-earnings-call-transcript​


----------



## Hoosier205

Regardless of when they arrive, I simply wonder how far behind the times they will be.


----------



## bonscott87

Sixto said:


> Today:"On top of all this notable momentum in the U.S., *our plan remains to launch DIRECTV by year end* and we are very excited about the impact of this launch of our sub trends."​




Hmmm, so did he read this from his 2009 presentation by mistake? ​


----------



## fornold

Later he did use the word "hope" in answering a question.



> As to the DIRECTV box that we are developing, it's something that we *hope* to be able to push out late this year.


Time will tell.


----------



## fernly

According to the transcript I read, Rogers responds to a Q&A with this (quoted partially above):


> As to the DIRECTV box that we are developing, it's something that we hope to be able to push out late this year. We continually hear, as DIRECTV does, from current and former TiVo subscribers through DIRECTV that they want the new HD box. We believe the demand is strong particularly among existing and former TiVo subscribers. There are a good 1.5 million or so DIRECTV subscribers who are former TiVo subscribers just to give you some sense of the number of people that have been exposed to TiVo through DIRECTV in the past. So, we are believing it will be a strong offering, once we're able to get it out.


 He also refers to the DirecTV launch as something he expects to have an impact on income. To say that in an earnings call, without a realistic belief it would happen, would be to invite later investor lawsuits.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

"we hope to be able?" 

Sounds rather limp to me. Folks, I hope to be able to win the lottery. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.


----------



## fornold

Of course he believes it will impact income. They wouldn't be working on it if it wouldn't provide income. Besides it is a forward looking statement that is covered in the normal Safe Harbor declarations, so if for some reason it doesn't come out they will be fine. 

The use of the word "hope" just gives them wiggle room if (or maybe when) it does slip to next year.


----------



## Steve

fernly said:


> According to the transcript I read, Rogers responds to a Q&A with this (quoted partially above):
> 
> 
> 
> As to the DIRECTV box that we are developing, it's something that we hope to be able to push out late this year. We continually hear, as DIRECTV does, from current and former TiVo subscribers through DIRECTV that they want the new HD box. We believe the demand is strong particularly among existing and former TiVo subscribers. There are a good 1.5 million or so DIRECTV subscribers who are *former* TiVo subscribers just to give you some sense of the number of people that have been exposed to TiVo through DIRECTV in the past. So, we are believing it will be a strong offering, once we're able to get it out.
> 
> 
> 
> He also refers to the DirecTV launch as something he expects to have an impact on income. To say that in an earnings call, without a realistic belief it would happen, would be to invite later investor lawsuits.
Click to expand...

"Former" is the operative word in that statement by Mr. Rogers, who apparently is either not familiar with his own company's subscriber numbers, or is trying to paint a different picture. I say that, because you can see by the attached snip from the 12/06 10Q TiVo filed, DirecTiVO subs appear to have peaked in April '06 at *2,875,000*.

According to the latest 10k (snip #2 below), they now have a total of *1,018,000* subs from *all *MSO's. That includes RCN, Cox, Comcast and DirecTV. Even if DirecTV still accounts for 75% of those, or 760,000 subs, I'm pretty sure that means they've _lost _over *2,000,000* DirecTV subs since 2006! If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. But if I'm right, how many of those, if any, does TiVO realistically expect to get back? :scratchin


----------



## CuriousMark

Steve said:


> Even if DirecTV still accounts for 75% of those, or 760,000 subs, I'm pretty sure that means they've _lost _over *2,000,000* DirecTV subs since 2006! If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. But if I'm right, how many of those, if any, does TiVO realistically expect to get back? :scratchin


Reading between the lines, I would say that means that of the 2 million that dropped TiVo on DirecTV, half a million left DirecTV completely and are not included in Rogers list of candidate DTV subscribers that might be interested in picking up the new DVR because they were already familiar with TiVo.


----------



## Steve

CuriousMark said:


> Reading between the lines, I would say that means that of the 2 million that dropped TiVo on DirecTV, half a million left DirecTV completely and are not included in Rogers list of candidate DTV subscribers that might be interested in picking up the new DVR because they were already familiar with TiVo.


Well don't forget, he's including the remaining 750k DirecTiVO users (my estimate) in that 1.5 million, so that leaves 1.4 million unaccounted for.

I'm not sure how he'd be privy to data on which TiVO subscribers are no longer D* subscribers. E.g., I switched my HR10-250's for HD DVR's back in 4/07. How does TiVO know if I left or not?


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Well don't forget, he's including the remaining 750k DirecTiVO users (my estimate) in that 1.5 million, so that leaves 1.4 million unaccounted for.
> 
> I'm not sure how he'd be privy to data on which TiVO subscribers are no longer D* subscribers. E.g., I switched my HR10-250's for HD DVR's back in 4/07. How does TiVO know if I left or not?


He was just pulling a number out of his butt of how many *used* to be DirecTivo subs and thus speculating that all of those would immediately come back to Tivo (and DirecTV if needed) just to get the new DirecTivo. Pretty big stretch frankly. But gotta say what you gotta say to keep the stock price up.


----------



## wingrider01

Sixto said:


> Today:"On top of all this notable momentum in the U.S., *our plan remains to launch DIRECTV by year end* and we are very excited about the impact of this launch of our sub trends."
> 
> ​




I sem to recall that TIVO considers this 2011 by their fiscal year, so do they mean late 2010 by the calendar or late 2011 but their fiscal year?​


----------



## Doug Brott

wingrider01 said:


> I sem to recall that TIVO considers this 2011 by their fiscal year, so do they mean late 2010 by the calendar or late 2011 but their fiscal year?


speculation like this is always based on the Gregorian calendar, not the fiscal one.


----------



## ejjames

Doug Brott said:


> speculation like this is always based on the Gregorian calendar, not the fiscal one.


Whatever. Look, just tell this "Greg" guy to let me know when the tivo will be ready.


----------



## ATARI

ejjames said:


> Whatever. Look, just tell this "Greg" guy to let me know when the tivo will be ready.


Sad news to report -- Greg died 425 years ago.


----------



## joed32

A moment of silence please.


----------



## Carl Spock

I've never owned a TiVo but I really like the ones I've used. From this latest reading of the tea leaves, maybe this piece will be a reality by the time my commitment renews in the fall of 2011.

<ducks>


----------



## Doug Brott

I used to think before the end of this year (no longer do) .. but end of 2011 is probably still doable.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I know just the perfect skeptic to have as a tester....cause if they can turn that person around into a fanboy - they've struck gold with a product.


----------



## wingrider01

Doug Brott said:


> speculation like this is always based on the Gregorian calendar, not the fiscal one.


end of 2011 sounds more feasible, the funny thing, a old song by the name of "In the Year 2525" always pops intomy head when specualting what decade tivo will have the box out


----------



## gutkin

TiVo is that 15 year old dog you love, but you know is going to die any time now. I've used TiVo on and off since the first box came our. I think TiVo HD is about done. The best and smartest thing they can do is just license their SW and let anyone willing to pay use it. This way DirecTV could have a box within six months.


----------



## Curtis52

gutkin said:


> The best and smartest thing they can do is just license their SW and let anyone willing to pay use it.


TiVo has always been willing to do exactly that.


----------



## Skyboss

My post from another thread:

A DirecTV HDTivo is not needed.

There, I said it... Hear me out...

1. I'm a hug TiVo fan, but I got fed up waiting. This TiVo box has more delays than the Boeing 787, and the 787 is two years late and a billion times more complex.
2. So I made the plunge to upgrade my entire system. I ordered up 3 HR-24-500s (paid for them) and one H24. Had the new SWM with DECA installed to include a new dish.

All I have to say is that the operation of my setup has been completely flawless since the install. I even had my router go down due to a DSL glitch in the neighborhood and when I reset it, the DECA came right back up - no fumbling through menu options to reset boxes.

Look, I wish TiVo all the best. But you're coming out a day late and a dollar short. If you're going to talk about a product, you better deliver because in todays environment, you die if you don't. Especially when it comes to technology.

Additional: I know people are having issues with connected home. I did too until I swapped out all my 22s and 23s for the 24s. I think the issue is that the 24s are designed for DECA where everything else is a conversion with all the DECA modules - whats the old electronics term - Keep It Simple Stupid???


----------



## Lord Vader

Doug Brott said:


> I used to think before the end of this year (no longer do) .. but end of 2011 is probably still doable.


IMHO, Doug, if it's that late, it might just make a DirecTIVO irrelevant. There comes a point where most former TIVO users/lovers simply say to TIVO, "You're too late. It really doesn't matter now."

Sure, some will wait forever, but as the months tick away, more people who have waited and wanted will have their interest and desire wane to the point where they just don't care anymore.


----------



## Greg4050

Tivo will still be needed until Dtv gives us some feedback when using 30SKIP. You get no audible or visual cue that your skip was received (when pressing multiple times to skip a commercial block) and even worse, you dont know where you are in the playback.


----------



## narcolept

Greg4050 said:


> Tivo will still be needed until Dtv gives us some feedback when using 30SKIP. You get no audible or visual cue that your skip was received (when pressing multiple times to skip a commercial block) and even worse, you dont know where you are in the playback.


While it may be a useful feature, I don't think that the lack of said feature itself is a valid business case for getting a new DirecTV receiver with Tivo on the market..

:sure:


----------



## puffnstuff

Greg4050 said:


> Tivo will still be needed until Dtv gives us some feedback when using 30SKIP. You get no audible or visual cue that your skip was received (when pressing multiple times to skip a commercial block) and even worse, you dont know where you are in the playback.


The light blinks every time I use it.


----------



## Hoosier205

I think this TiVo has about as much chance of being a success as the Titanic had of making it New York after impact. No chance. Maybe James Cameron can make a movie about it one day.


----------



## QuickDrop

Hoosier205 said:


> I think this TiVo has about as much chance of being a success as the Titanic had of making it New York after impact. No chance. Maybe James Cameron can make a movie about it one day.


I agree. Tivo is essentially the generic name for DVRs. Except for a combination cable card/limited storage on a regular cable box, I don't see why most people would pay extra for the Tivo name, even if the software is somewhat better. Years ago, they should have attempted to make deals with all television providers to exclusively design DVRs. Convenience of technology will almost always beat out better technology on the consumer level and to be a Tivo fan for the last ten years would have meant dealing with two boxes instead of one.

The word "tivo" will last longer than the company.


----------



## ItsMeJTO

I can't see what the hold up is, having a box that doesn't work 100% first time has never stopped them releasing one in the past and making beta testers of us all.
Just how many firmware updates have they issued in the last couple of years 'cos I lost count.................................


----------



## coolman302003

According to Tivo's Website its expected to be launched in 2011...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

coolman302003 said:


> According to Tivo's Website its expected to be launched in 2011...


Could you post the link to that because everything I find on their site is still saying 2010. :shrug:

I'm pretty sure it will be in 2011. I just can't find that graphic.

Mike


----------



## ATARI

This shows the exact same graphic as posted above, but with the 2010 date.


----------



## bonscott87

LOL...so they updated the same graphic that at one time said 2009....then said 2010....now to say 2011. I can't stop laughing. 

At least now they are confirming it's officially delayed once again, now to 2011. Notice it's just 2011 and not "early", "1st half" or any qualifiers. That's not a good sign either.

EDIT: I still see 2010 on the link posted above too. Is there a link to the 2011 graphic?


----------



## ejjames

I kind of wanted to try the kid zone thing, but at this pace, they should just about to be starting graduate school.


----------



## Hoosier205

It will probably be overpriced and the HR's may be just as capable by then (not that there are all that many differences now). Sign me up!


----------



## Carl Spock

bonscott87 said:


> LOL...so they updated the same graphic that at one time said 2009....then said 2010....now to say 2011.


And we ALL know what happens in 2012.

This TiVo is the root cause of the apocalypse.


----------



## CuriousMark

bonscott87 said:


> At least now they are confirming it's officially delayed once again, now to 2011. Notice it's just 2011 and not "early", "1st half" or any qualifiers. That's not a good sign either.
> 
> EDIT: I still see 2010 on the link posted above too. Is there a link to the 2011 graphic?


It looks to me like coolman302003 doctored the real page to say 2011. While he may turn out to be right, as of now that graphic is pure speculation, not something truly from the TiVo site.


----------



## ATARI

Newsflash -- now pushed back to 2012!


----------



## Carl Spock

^ That's it. It's the end of the world and it's all TiVo's fault!

I'm cutting off my satellite service, riding a bike everywhere and pooping only in plastic bags that I'll keep in my now-empty garage. Maybe it's not too late to save the planet.

:icon_peac


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Carl Spock said:


> ^ That's it. It's the end of the world and it's all TiVo's fault!
> 
> I'm cutting off my satellite service, riding a bike everywhere and pooping only in plastic bags that I'll keep in my now-empty garage. Maybe it's not too late to save the planet.
> 
> :icon_peac


Shouldn't you be using paper bags? 

!rolling

Mike


----------



## Skyboss

Greg4050 said:


> Tivo will still be needed until Dtv gives us some feedback when using 30SKIP. You get no audible or visual cue that your skip was received (when pressing multiple times to skip a commercial block) and even worse, you dont know where you are in the playback.


If thats the distinguishing feature, TiVo is dead. :nono2:


----------



## Steve

Skyboss said:


> If thats the distinguishing feature, TiVo is dead. :nono2:


I agree. Plus I actually like the fact there's no intrusive progress bar on the HR when you 30SKIP, especially during sporting events.

And while I know the 50 SL limit is still important to some users, it's a non-issue for me now, thanks to MRV and the ability to distribute SL's across multiple DVR's.


----------



## apastuszak

I make a monthly call to DirectTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.

The impression I am getting is that DTV agreed to release a Tivo based DVR to avoid patent litigation by Tivo. If the Tivo patent gets overturned, then they really have no incentive to release the Tivo DVR.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

apastuszak said:


> I make a monthly call to DirecTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.
> 
> *The impression I am getting is that DTV agreed to release a TiVo based DVR to avoid patent litigation by TiVo. * If the TiVo patent gets overturned, then they really have no incentive to release the TiVo DVR.


That might be the case.

DirecTV and TiVo have an agreement whereby there will be no ligation on patents.

The planned release of a potential new HD Tivobox unit is contingent on firmware being completed and then tested on hardware, prior to release. While this was anticipated to already be completed and a unit mainstream available by now, the latest rumored dates now reflect a late 2010 timeframe.

As I will be at CES in January...and will check around to see what is happening in the TiVo area....this may be where they show it off first.


----------



## bonscott87

apastuszak said:


> I make a monthly call to DirectTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.
> 
> The impression I am getting is that DTV agreed to release a Tivo based DVR to avoid patent litigation by Tivo. If the Tivo patent gets overturned, then they really have no incentive to release the Tivo DVR.


Well, they have (and have had) a "no sue" contract that really has nothing to do with building a new DVR. If the new DVR comes out or not, the no sue contract is still in place.


----------



## gregjones

bonscott87 said:


> Well, they have (and have had) a "no sue" contract that really has nothing to do with building a new DVR. If the new DVR comes out or not, the no sue contract is still in place.


I agree. I'd also like to point out that calling the CSRs to ask them about it is a pointless exercise, especially once a month.


----------



## CuriousMark

apastuszak said:


> I make a monthly call to DirectTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.


So something that happened well over a year ago, is causing DTV to take a wait and see attitude now?

You know this is Dish's second bite at the patent review apple. The first time around the patent was rejected, the rejection was appealed and then the patent was upheld with no changes.

While I suppose anything is possible, this sounds like idle speculation given to you to get you off the phone.


----------



## Curtis52

CuriousMark said:


> You know this is Dish's second bite at the patent review apple. The first time around the patent was rejected, the rejection was appealed and then the patent was upheld with no changes.


No appeal was necessary. TiVo merely replied. The examiner agreed.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregjones said:


> I agree. I'd also like to point out that calling the CSRs to ask them about it is a pointless exercise, especially once a month.


Agree a waste of time. The CSR team will learn about it no sooner than it is posted here, if history is any teacher.


CuriousMark said:


> So something that happened well over a year ago, is causing DTV to take a wait and see attitude now?
> 
> You know this is Dish's second bite at the patent review apple. The first time around the patent was rejected, the rejection was appealed and then the patent was upheld with no changes.
> 
> While I suppose anything is possible, this sounds like idle speculation given to you to get you off the phone.


Nothing has changed for over a year. The new HD Tivo DVR is still in development, followed by testing. The only thing that is different is the expected availability, which will be more than 1 year past its original planned date.


----------



## DogLover

apastuszak said:


> I make a monthly call to DirectTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.
> 
> The impression I am getting is that DTV agreed to release a Tivo based DVR to avoid patent litigation by Tivo. If the Tivo patent gets overturned, then they really have no incentive to release the Tivo DVR.


I have to agree with everyone here that this doesn't seem to hold water. They may have signed the new agreement (at least in part) to avoid any mutual litigation. However, once signed, DirecTV could only delay the new DirecTivo for reasons allowed in the agreement.

It doesn't really make sense that the agreement would say that if Tivo's patents were found to be invalid, then DirecTV could delay release of the new box. After all, Tivo already has put time and effort into developing it, and DirecTV has already made payments to Tivo under the agreement. At this point, there is no significant downside to DirecTV allowing the new Tivo box to be released.


----------



## CodyJ

I'm just wondering that when the DTV Tivo becomes available, are we going to be subjected to Kindle-style delays on stock?! Amazon-Kindle is catching up a bit as I noticed they now ship on Sept. 20th so it's only two weeks, but it has been much longer...This is always a bit frustrating, because it's delayed, delayed gratification!


----------



## evan_s

apastuszak said:


> I make a monthly call to DirectTV to ask the status of the device. That last thing a rep told me was that since Dish just got a review of the patent, DTV is taking a wait and see approach on the ruling.
> 
> The impression I am getting is that DTV agreed to release a Tivo based DVR to avoid patent litigation by Tivo. If the Tivo patent gets overturned, then they really have no incentive to release the Tivo DVR.


I highly doubt that for a number of reasons.

1) Any info from a CSR is generally suspect anyway. Not the way it should be but the way it is for most companies since it's a fairly low paying position typically you get either people who can't get a better paying job or a new and still learning.

2) Any inside info a CSR might actually have would typically be confidential so they shouldn't be sharing it anyway.

3) My impression has always been that DirecTV isn't very worried about Tivo's patents because they bought up ReplayTV and have as many important DVR patents as Tivo has which has lead the the cross-licensing agreements so that they can each use the others patents.


----------



## evan_s

CodyJ said:


> I'm just wondering that when the DTV Tivo becomes available, are we going to be subjected to Kindle-style delays on stock?! Amazon-Kindle is catching up a bit as I noticed they now ship on Sept. 20th so it's only two weeks, but it has been much longer...This is always a bit frustrating, because it's delayed, delayed gratification!


It is not clear that it will be different hardware. If you look at recent Tivo deals with Cable Co's it has always been their software running on the normal hardware and not special hardware so it could easily be any HR series receiver or maybe only the hr 24's or even anything but a hr24 and they just need to flag it in the system so it downloads a new firmware.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

evan_s said:


> It is not clear that it will be different hardware. If you look at recent Tivo deals with Cable Co's it has always been their software running on the normal hardware and not special hardware so it could easily be any HR series receiver or maybe only the hr 24's or even anything but a hr24 and they just need to flag it in the system so it downloads a new firmware.


Most everything "official" has stated that will run on existing DirecTV hardware.

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

CodyJ said:


> I'm just wondering that when the DTV Tivo becomes available, are we going to be subjected to Kindle-style delays on stock?! Amazon-Kindle is catching up a bit as I noticed they now ship on Sept. 20th so it's only two weeks, but it has been much longer...This is always a bit frustrating, because it's delayed, delayed gratification!


I wouldn't worry about "stock" right now .. The wait started in September of 2008 .. here we are in September of 2010 .. that should tell you something.


----------



## CuriousMark

evan_s said:


> It is not clear that it will be different hardware. If you look at recent Tivo deals with Cable Co's it has always been their software running on the normal hardware and not special hardware so it could easily be any HR series receiver or maybe only the hr 24's or even anything but a hr24 and they just need to flag it in the system so it downloads a new firmware.


TiVo has said they are porting to the Technicolor manufactured box. That does not narrow down which HR it is though, since they make all of them. I would think that if it runs on Technicolor hardware, it "should" run on the other manufacturer versions too.

This may no longer be true, but over a year ago, TiVo said it would not be available as a download. They were stinging from the Comcast download debacle in Boston at the time, so they were very leery of any kind of download solution.


----------



## ejjames

Like many of you, I patiently wait for the new tivo. My wife will not give up her 10-250's, and I have moved on...my 2 HR20-700's chugging along since the early days. HD, SD, my wife really doesn't care (to my horror).

If they can deliver a device that includes all the bells & whistles such as DIRECTV2PC, I am still enough of a fan that I may be convinced to "tivo" everything. However, I fear that day is a LONG way off. So I've attached my 1.5TB drive and even without MRV, I'll get along just fine. (writing this as my daughter watches "Sponge Bob" on the tivo, hearing the "BOING, DING, CLUNK" tivo sounds.

My 9 year old son has seen the hd light. He wants his Minnesota Twins in HD. So the DVRs are divided boys vs. girls, and my wife and I are happy both units have good parental locks!


----------



## codespy

CuriousMark said:


> TiVo has said they are porting to the Technicolor manufactured box. That does not narrow down which HR it is though, since they make all of them. I would think that if it runs on Technicolor hardware, it "should" run on the other manufacturer versions too..........


Technicolor....that's good direction.

Looks like UL updated this in August....

Perhaps THR22-100?

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073984370&sequence=1


----------



## CuriousMark

codespy said:


> Looks like UL updated this in August....
> 
> Perhaps THR22-100?


Nice find!
We actually learned something new today.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CuriousMark said:


> Nice find!
> We actually learned something new today.


It has been discussed for some time that any new HD Tivo unit would be built on an existing DirecTV hardware base. It would seem that the HR23 or HR24 would be the most likely....but we simply don't know.


----------



## Skyboss

CuriousMark said:


> They were stinging from the Comcast download debacle in Boston at the time, so they were very leery of any kind of download solution.


I think this had to do more with the way it was overlayed. If they can just port the whole software package onto a DirecTV unit, then it shodul be straight forward. You call and order the change or search for "IWANTTIVO" and it downloads and installs while you sleep. The downside is you probably lose everything (ie recordings, favorites etc...). I guess in the coudl also do it with a service call. Guy shows up with a USB drive. Ports it and leaves you a peanut remote.


----------



## Steve

codespy said:


> Technicolor....that's good direction.
> 
> Looks like UL updated this in August....
> 
> Perhaps THR22-100?
> 
> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...n=versionless&parent_id=1073984370&sequence=1


Sure looks like it.

Surprising, tho. I thought I read somewhere on this site that production had ceased on all boxes except 24's a few months ago. I'd be really surprised at this late date if the new DirecTiVo wasn't based on a 24, but who knows? :shrug: The THR listed in that update might be a "special order" because TiVo knows the Broadcom chipset so well from their own models.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Sure looks like it.
> 
> Surprising, tho. I thought I read somewhere on this site that production had ceased on all boxes except 24's a few months ago. I'd be really surprised at this late date if the new DirecTiVo wasn't based on a 24, but who knows? :shrug: *The THR listed in that update might be a "special order"* because TiVo knows the Broadcom chipset so well from their own models.


Yup...could simply be a very-nominally-modified version with the Tivo firmware.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yup...could simply be a very-nominally-modified version with the Tivo firmware.


T as in *T*iVo*H*D*R*ecorder?

Interesting find indeed!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ATARI said:


> T as in *T*iVo*H*D*R*ecorder?
> 
> Interesting find indeed!


Could be.


----------



## Sixto

According to the latest 10Q (9/9/2010), they invested another $2.6M in DirecTV TiVo development for the 3 months ending 7/31/2010.

That's $5.1M over the 6 months ending 7/31/2010.

And $9.0 million for the prior 12 months ending 1/31/2010.

Steady $2.5M-$3M per quarter for a while now.

From 10Q:"Due to uncertainties over the ultimate profit margin on the development work, the Company recognizes revenues and costs for the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR based on a zero profit model, which results in the recognition of equal amounts of revenues and costs not to exceed the amount that the Company has the contractual right to bill DIRECTV upon the meeting of certain milestones. During the three months ended July 31, 2010 and 2009, the Company recognized $2.6 million and $2.2 million in technology revenues and $2.6 million and $2.2 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR. During the six months ended July 31, 2010 and 2009, the Company recognized $5.1 million and $3.2 million in technology revenues and $5.1 million and $3.2 million in cost of technology revenues, respectively related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR."​


----------



## codespy

Well that tells me they are working on something with TiVo, and doesn't look like software upgrades to old machines............


----------



## Mike Bertelson

codespy said:


> Well that tells me they are working on something with TiVo, and doesn't look like software upgrades to old machines............


Yeah, but IMO it doesn't tell us much about what is being done.

Time will tell. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

codespy said:


> Well that tells me they are working on something with TiVo, and doesn't look like software upgrades to old machines............


Yes and no.

They are working on their firmware only (but likely running on established hardware, as its been going on for some time now). It would be a replacement/different firmware installation, not any kind of upgrade.


----------



## Steve

codespy said:


> Well that tells me they are working on something with TiVo, and doesn't look like software upgrades to old machines............


Not sure how this 10Q comment can be read as anything _except _software for one of D*'s HR-capable models! :scratchin 


Sixto said:


> "[...] related to the development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband−enabled HD DVR."


----------



## fernly

A new story by Troy Wolverton at the San Jose (CA) Mercury News describes local company TiVo as "down but not out" citing the numerous deals signed in the past year with e.g. Virgin, Cox, RCN, Best Buy.

Obvious question, if they are busy porting versions of their software for so many different vendors, have they time to do a DTV version? Supporting so many different platforms must spread their techs rather thin.


----------



## Brennok

On top of that they just signed another deal for overseas with Samsung.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tivo-and-samsung-to-collaborate-on-advanced-pvr-solution-2010-09-12


----------



## Steve

Brennok said:


> On top of that they just signed another deal for overseas with Samsung.
> 
> http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tivo-and-samsung-to-collaborate-on-advanced-pvr-solution-2010-09-12


_"TiVo's unsurpassed ability to combine linear television, video on demand and broadband content in an elegant and intuitive user interface is increasingly becoming the solution TV operators around the world are turning to in order to stay ahead of the competition," said Joshua Danovitz, Vice President, General Manager of TiVo International._

Just because you say you are "unsurpassed" doesn't mean you are. 

This deal is probably a response by Samsung to the recent Sony and Logitech deals with Google TV. If consumers ultimately accept the metaphor of searching for web and local content with a single UI, I wonder who'll win that battle? TiVO or Google?


----------



## Curtis52

Steve said:


> Not sure how this 10Q comment can be read as anything _except _software for one of D*'s HR-capable models! :scratchin


The question is whether it will be a new model or not. DirecTV has always supplied the hardware and TiVo has supplied the software. They have always been DirecTV branded.


----------



## Steve

Curtis52 said:


> The question is whether it will be a new model or not. DirecTV has always supplied the hardware and TiVo has supplied the software. They have always been DirecTV branded.


Agree. I just assumed at this late date it would be an HR24-100, but that "THR" 22-100 listing *codespy *unearthed now makes me question that theory. It makes sense that Broadcom would be the easiest port for them, but they could have done that in 2009, so the protracted wait still puzzles me. Even if they were waiting on MRV, seems to me there could have been an interim release.


----------



## Skyboss

MicroBeta said:


> Yeah, but IMO it doesn't tell us much about what is being done.
> 
> Time will tell. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Just to throw it out there... A TIVO box sold direct from TiVO with a DirecTV tuning sidecar unit that connects to the USB on the back of a TiVo box????

I mean, its a good a vaporware as anything else on this right??? :grin:


----------



## CuriousMark

Skyboss said:


> Just to throw it out there... A TIVO box sold direct from TiVO with a DirecTV tuning sidecar unit that connects to the USB on the back of a TiVo box????
> 
> I mean, its a good a vaporware as anything else on this right??? :grin:


I doubt such a thing would have hr22 embedded into its model number.

Real hardware gets submitted for testing, so whatever this is, it isn't vapor anymore.


----------



## Doug Brott

Skyboss said:


> Just to throw it out there... A TIVO box sold direct from TiVO with a DirecTV tuning sidecar unit that connects to the USB on the back of a TiVo box????
> 
> I mean, its a good a vaporware as anything else on this right??? :grin:


Uh, no! .. The TiVo will be on existing DIRECTV hardware. I think it will be the HR21 series from Technicolor (-100) and the HDD size will very likely be 500GB (that's a SWAG). It could possibly be an HR24, but I'd find that a bit surprising since the HR24 was but a glimmer in some Engineer's eye when the TiVo/DIRECTV deal was announced in late 2008.


----------



## Davenlr

Isnt the HR22-100 exactly the same as the HR21 but with a 500GB drive? If so, would it be downloadable to a HR22, or would the receiver need to be rechipped?


----------



## Doug Brott

rechipped? I suspect that technically it could be downloaded, but since the receiver could possibly be bricked during that process I'm also fairly certain that downloading a TiVo update isn't in the cards. It just doesn't make any kind of sense from a business perspective (IMHO).


----------



## bonscott87

Tivo has filed in their SEC filings that the new DirecTivo HD will have a Tivo bezel on the box. Thus it won't be a download that someone can put on their current HR2x, it will simply be a "re-branded" HR2x, new box, that people can get.


----------



## sigma1914

bonscott87 said:


> Tivo has filed in their SEC filings that the new DirecTivo HD will have a Tivo bezel on the box. Thus it won't be a download that someone can put on their current HR2x, it will simply be a "re-branded" HR2x, new box, that people can get.


Maybe they will mail a Tivo doohickey to stick on the HR. :lol:


----------



## tkrandall

An HR21 as the platform? Yuk.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

tkrandall said:


> An HR21 as the platform? Yuk.


We knew all along it would be on an existing DirecTV platform. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## ATARI

tkrandall said:


> An HR21 as the platform? Yuk.


Not HR21, but rather HR22 -- see post #480 for details.


----------



## Steve

tkrandall said:


> An HR21 as the platform? Yuk.


I admit the 24 would be better, but the TiVO HD box was pretty snappy using the same Broadcom chipset as the HR21/22/23. Folks over in the TiVO forums weren't complaining about speed at all.

And the venerable HR10-250 DirecTiVO ran on a box with 1/2 the memory and 1/2 the CPU speed of the 21/22/23 and also worked pretty well, IMHO. Especially after the 6.x update that reduced the wait time for re-ordering Season's Passes.


----------



## Doug Brott

ATARI said:


> Not HR21, but rather HR22 -- see post #480 for details.


The HR22 is simply an HR21 with a larger HDD .. Also, the R22 is pretty much the same thing as well with a limitation to SD - it was created for MPEG4 only SD markets.

So, when I say HR21 .. it's really the same thing. The casing will probably be different and the motherboard may even be resized for use in the new TiVo box - I have no idea what it actually looks like. So while cosmetics may be different, the hardware functionality will be virtually identical ot the HR21 series.


----------



## Skyboss

tkrandall said:


> An HR21 as the platform? Yuk.





ATARI said:


> Not HR21, but rather HR22 -- see post #480 for details.


Epic Fail comes to mind.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> I admit the 24 would be better, but the TiVO HD box was pretty snappy using the same Broadcom chipset as the HR21/22/23. Folks over in the TiVO forums weren't complaining about speed at all.


Well, yes and no. The Tivo HD is fine when you are in basic Tivo mode and using the GUI and the functions they created a decade ago. Anything newer at all (including the net apps or streaming or whatever or anything using a newer version of the GUI, like the Tivo search) was dog slow.

I'd be concerned if they are going to put MRV in that box with the Tivo software.

Even then, the trick play response was not greater than my HR DVRs. (Edit to clarify...I mean the HD trickplay. And that was MPEG2. Remember how much time it took DirecTV to get MPEG4 stable?)

We can hope that the Tivo can be ported to newer hardware as soon as possible.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Unfortunately, TiVo's glacial pace seems to imply "As Soon As Possible" isn't likely to be very soon. 

I don't know what happened at TiVo. They owned the whole DVR market. Then dropped the ball. Then they pushed the ball away. Now...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Well, yes and no. The Tivo HD is fine when you are in basic Tivo mode and using the GUI and the functions they created a decade ago. Anything newer at all (including the net apps or streaming or whatever or anything using a newer version of the GUI, like the Tivo search) was dog slow.


I wouldn't expect to see anything more sophisticated than an SD GUI running on an HR21/22/23 based TiVO. IOW, no new TiVO search or web streaming. My guess? It will be the old HR10 UI (including the old TiVo Search), plus MRV, DirecTV Cinema and PPV.



> I'd be concerned if they are going to put MRV in that box with the Tivo software.


We know the HR21/22/23's have enough horsepower to run the current HR application suite and MRV. We know the TiVO software ran fine on the slower HR10's. Assuming the new TiVO port is essentially that same s/w running on the faster HR22 with more memory, that should leave plenty of CPU cycles for MRV, if that's a planned feature.



> Even then, the trick play response was not greater than my HR DVRs. (Edit to clarify...I mean the HD trickplay. And that was MPEG2. Remember how much time it took DirecTV to get MPEG4 stable?)


The MPEG-4 decoding is hardware-based. Tuning MPEG-4 trickplay may be something new TiVO's engineers have to reckon with, but MPEG-4 vs. MPEG-2 decoding _per se_ shouldn't strain the box's ability to multitask.



> We can hope that the Tivo can be ported to newer hardware as soon as possible.


I'm with you on that, but given *codespy's* unearthing of the THR22-100 and the length of time it's taken them to apparently do another Broadcom implementation, with all the recent new TiVO collaboration announcements their engineers are now committed to (including Samsung a couple of days ago), a port to a different DirecTV chipset may be years out.

All this just my .02.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

But will tivo have TV APPS? Score guide? MIX channels? VOD? Weather Channel interactive?


----------



## ejjames

JoeTheDragon said:


> But will tivo have TV APPS? Score guide? MIX channels? VOD? Weather Channel interactive?


If it doesn't have DIRECTV2PC, I'm jumping off this bandwagon, at the moment, the wagon is looking mighty sparse.


----------



## Doug Brott

Think MPEG4 HR10 and I think you'll have an excellent idea of what to expect.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> I wouldn't expect to see anything more sophisticated than an SD GUI running on an HR21/22/23 based TiVO.


Tivo CEO has already stated this in interviews a few months ago. The DirecTivo HD will *not* be based on the new Premier or any new GUI. It will be based on the Tivo "classic" GUI.

So yea, it'll be basically an HR10-250 or the older SD DirecTivo's with MPEG4. I used to see more posts from people that said "great, that's all I want" and there still may be a few, but the tune has changed recently because people realize how behind the times that really is.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Doug Brott said:


> Think MPEG4 HR10 and I think you'll have an excellent idea of what to expect.


I kinda think the same thing. However, I would've expected it to also have at least some of the current HR features, e.g. MRV, media share, DirecTV2PC, and apps.

It doesn't make any sense to me for TiVo not to have those things. Why would enough people to make the venture finacially viable want to miss out on the features we currently enjoy. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> I kinda think the same thing. However, I would've expected it to also have at least some of the current HR features, e.g. MRV, media share, DirecTV2PC, and apps.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me for TiVo not to have those things. Why would enough people to make the venture financially viable want to miss out on the features we currently enjoy. :shrug:
> 
> Mike


Have always assumed it would have at least some of the newer stuff. Otherwise, not sure why it would take 2+ years to add just MPEG4 and SWM to an HR10.

Certainly very curious to see what they've spent $15M+ developing.


----------



## Skyboss

MicroBeta said:


> I kinda think the same thing. However, I would've expected it to also have at least some of the current HR features, e.g. MRV, media share, DirecTV2PC, and apps.
> 
> Mike


If it lacks MRV and media share it will be a bust at this point.


----------



## hancox

bonscott87 said:


> Tivo CEO has already stated this in interviews a few months ago. The DirecTivo HD will *not* be based on the new Premier or any new GUI. It will be based on the Tivo "classic" GUI.
> 
> So yea, it'll be basically an HR10-250 or the older SD DirecTivo's with MPEG4. I used to see more posts from people that said "great, that's all I want" and there still may be a few, but the tune has changed recently because people realize how behind the times that really is.


I don't know. I'll be keen to see what the testing for this looks like. An "MPEG4 HR10" might work for me, assuming SWM. I miss having a "working" OTA tuner and, yes, suggestions.


----------



## Steve

hancox said:


> [...] I miss having a "working" OTA tuner and, yes, suggestions.


We have suggestions now, courtesy of _"You might like"_, but I guess you mean auto-recording them?


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> Have always assumed it would have at least some of the newer stuff. Otherwise, not sure why it would take 2+ years to add just MPEG4 and SWM to an HR10.


I guess it's like *Tom *said earlier... they dropped the ball. I wonder how many 100's of thousands of DirecTiVO subs "defected", as a result?



> Certainly very curious to see what they've spent $15M+ developing.


I managed a few large-scale application development projects in my day, and if it's "just" an MPEG4 HR10 that's under development, my guess is some of those $$$ may be for "good will". Pure speculation, of course.


----------



## CuriousMark

MicroBeta said:


> However, I would've expected it to also have at least some of the current HR features, e.g. MRV, media share, DirecTV2PC, and apps.


Personally I would prefer it support TiVo Desktop, TiVo To 
Go, and TiVo to Come back rather than media share and direcTV2PC. For uses with standalone TiVo DVRs in their setups, having the new boxes interact with them is a feature more useful than having it support a "foreign" DTV ecosystem.

Yup, that won't happen. If it supports MRV, then direcTV2PC and mediashare are just minor tweaks as they appear to use the same protocols.


----------



## hancox

Steve said:


> We have suggestions now, courtesy of _"You might like"_, but I guess you mean auto-recording them?


1) yes
1b) it wouldn't matter even if 1 were auto-recordable, because of another HR2x problem - the stupid 50 SL limit. Grrrrrrrrr......


----------



## CuriousMark

TiVo Joins MoCA

DTV is already a member, as DECA is the DirecTV specific version of MoCA. TiVo joining may be due in part to their development in support of DECA and also to add MoCA to their stand alones and cable boxes. No matter how you look at this, it is mild form of convergence.

This doesn't prove that the new DVR will support DECA, but it makes it less unlikely.


----------



## Steve

hancox said:


> 1) yes
> 1b) it wouldn't matter even if 1 were auto-recordable, because of another HR2x problem - the stupid 50 SL limit. Grrrrrrrrr......


I could be wrong, but I don't think single recordings count against the 50 limit. IIRC, TiVO suggestions were all set-up as "one shots". As a result, they bypassed the Seasons Pass manager and went right onto the TDL.

You're right, tho, a standing HR AUTORECORD does count against the limit, but it can pick up multiple shows that match. So with the right keywords, you can use it to work around the 50 limit somewhat.


----------



## ATARI

hancox said:


> I don't know. I'll be keen to see what the testing for this looks like. An "MPEG4 HR10" might work for me, assuming SWM. I miss having a "working" OTA tuner and, yes, suggestions.


I think Doug should have said MPEG4 HR10 w/o OTA.

Because if the new DirecTiVo is HR22 based, it won't have OTA.


----------



## Steve

ATARI said:


> I think Doug should have said MPEG4 HR10 w/o OTA.
> 
> Because if the new DirecTiVo is HR22 based, it won't have OTA.


The HR22 does support the AM21, tho, so might be an option...


----------



## bonscott87

MicroBeta said:


> I kinda think the same thing. However, I would've expected it to also have at least some of the current HR features, e.g. MRV, media share, DirecTV2PC, and apps.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense to me for TiVo not to have those things. Why would enough people to make the venture finacially viable want to miss out on the features we currently enjoy. :shrug:
> 
> Mike


Because Tivo, even to this day, is arrogant and believes that just the word "Tivo" on it is enough. And the Tivo fanatics think the same way.

But it's not true anymore, hasn't been for years. Tivo's days of "build it and they will come" are long, long past and if they don't compete with the HR2x on feature set then it's a lost cause big time.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

bonscott87 said:


> Because Tivo, even to this day, is arrogant and believes that just the word "Tivo" on it is enough. And the Tivo fanatics think the same way.
> 
> But it's not true anymore, hasn't been for years. Tivo's days of "build it and they will come" are long, long past and if they don't compete with the HR2x on feature set then it's a lost cause big time.


That's sorta my point. If they can't deliver they're doomed.

If people are faced with two DVRs and one has the features and one doesn't......

Mike


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> I don't know. I'll be keen to see what the testing for this looks like. An "MPEG4 HR10" might work for me, assuming SWM. I miss having a "working" OTA tuner and, yes, suggestions.


:shrug: .. however, I really would be shocked if SWM weren't part of the package. That's pretty much the defacto install these days for HD. The hardware already supports it and I have to believe that DIRECTV would help out with any drivers that might be needed in that department.


----------



## trainman

Steve said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think single recordings count against the 50 limit. IIRC, TiVO suggestions were all set-up as "one shots". As a result, they bypassed the Seasons Pass manager and went right onto the TDL.


You are correct, although Suggestions didn't show up on the To Do list. There was a separate list one could check showing all upcoming "suggested" programs, but that list would be there even if auto-recording wasn't turned on. Also, if auto-recording were turned on, not everything on that list would actually record, and sometimes shows would record that never showed up on that list.


----------



## codespy

This may have been already posted, but......

http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/08/26/tivo.still.developing.tru2way.directv.due.2010/

.....CEO Tom Rogers said DirecTV TiVo is still scheduled for a 2010 release, but there is now some doubt as to whether this can happen before 2011........

+ more in article from 8/26/10.

If this box doesn't have most of the important features of the HR2x's......then what's the point anyway?

The 24 series really relieved some aches and pains from the previous models (with the exception of the OTA 20's).

Now I got to go back and figure out how to get these TVApps to work again!...........:grin:


----------



## Doug Brott

New DIRECTV TiVo before 2011? Won't happen.


----------



## codespy

OK.


----------



## bonscott87

I find it funny they are also *still* working on Tru2Way. It's been what, 2 or 3 years working on that now? Heck, by the time they finally get it supported the cable industry will be on to the next big thing.

I think people should really consider the fact that Tivo can't program themselves out of a paper bag anymore.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> New DIRECTV TiVo before 2011? Won't happen.


Most likely the case.

Figured the first potential look at one is at the CES in January...almost 2 years past the date first expected.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> :shrug: .. however, I really would be shocked if SWM weren't part of the package. That's pretty much the defacto install these days for HD. The hardware already supports it and I have to believe that DIRECTV would help out with any drivers that might be needed in that department.


Not sure why you give your usual "I don't agree but won't say it" :shrug: , but...

The lack of OTA scanning has been a *design flaw* of this series since the day it came out (quite late!). Any other OTA tuner that I've come across allows you to scan.


----------



## hasan

hancox said:


> Not sure why you give your usual "I don't agree but won't say it" :shrug: , but...
> 
> The lack of OTA scanning has been a *design flaw* of this series since the day it came out (quite late!). Any other OTA tuner that I've come across allows you to scan.


It isn't so much a design flaw, as a design choice. I don't like it, but it isn't a flaw, just a choice I don't much care for. Calling it a flaw may carry the implication that it is something they would change....they aren't going to change it. D* doesn't consider it a flaw, but rather a feature.


----------



## hancox

hasan said:


> It isn't so much a design flaw, as a design choice. I don't like it, but it isn't a flaw, just a choice I don't much care for. Calling it a flaw may carry the implication that it is something they would change....they aren't going to change it. D* doesn't consider it a flaw, but rather a feature.


I would agree if I could find any other receiver where the provider made the same "design choice." It's a flaw.


----------



## ffemtreed

hancox said:


> I would agree if I could find any other receiver where the provider made the same "design choice." It's a flaw.


I agree its a design flaw. Its like selling a car with no wheels.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Any device capabilties that don't happen to meet a person's own personal needs are *not* flaws..they are choices.

If OTA is not supported - it's by design.


----------



## ffemtreed

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Any device capabilties that don't happen to meet a person's own personal needs are *not* flaws..they are choices.
> 
> If OTA is not supported - it's by design.


so the AM21 wasn't designed to support OTA???????????????? Can you name any other OTA device that doesn't scan????


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> so the AM21 wasn't designed to support OTA???????????????? Can you name any other OTA device that doesn't scan????


What the heck - nobody said that.

The design flaw argument is purely a selfish view based on personal needs, not the reality of product design choices that are made to meet the mass market expectaitons.

I was responding to the speculation on capabilities of the next DirecTivo unit - you know - the subject of this thread...


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> Not sure why you give your usual "I don't agree but won't say it" :shrug: , but...
> 
> The lack of OTA scanning has been a *design flaw* of this series since the day it came out (quite late!). Any other OTA tuner that I've come across allows you to scan.


I think you are misinterpreting what :shrug: means in this case .. I'll make it more clear what I was saying with my :shrug:

"I don't know"

In fact, pretty much every time I use that emoticon, that is what I mean. Not sure how "I don't agree" applies :scratchin


----------



## hancox

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Any device capabilties that don't happen to meet a person's own personal needs are *not* flaws..they are choices.
> 
> If OTA is not supported - it's by design.


Sigh. I think that market has clearly dictated what an OTA tuner "needs." That's why it's a flaw.


----------



## Doug Brott

If TiVo supports OTA (and while I don't know whether they will or not, it seems very plausible), I don't see any reason why their version of OTA would be any different on the new one than it was on the old one.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hancox said:


> Sigh. I think that market has clearly dictated what an OTA tuner "needs." That's why it's a flaw.


Only a minority of the market uses OTA - in fact there is discussion debating whether or not OTA needs to be supported within the broadcast station community...so its hardly either a mainstream "need" or "flaw".

So perhaps we can get back on topic now?


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> Sigh. I think that market has clearly dictated what an OTA tuner "needs." That's why it's a flaw.


As for the HR2x .. it may be a bad choice in your mind, but it was a design decision. The flaw is not really in the programming of the device, but in the decision in which way to program it. Believe it or not, there is actually a sound basis for the decision from my understanding, but certainly scanning would be helpful were it to be implemented.

Perhaps the TiVo will have scanning and provide a solution you are looking for. For me, I just never think of OTA because I don't use it - even if I wanted to, I'm not in a location that gets reception from the channels I watch.


----------



## Steve

hancox said:


> Sigh. I think that market has clearly dictated what an OTA tuner "needs." That's why it's a flaw.





Doug Brott said:


> As for the HR2x .. it may be a bad choice in your mind, but it was a design decision. The flaw is not really in the programming of the device, but in the decision in which way to program it. Believe it or not, there is actually a sound basis for the decision from my understanding, but certainly scanning would be helpful were it to be implemented [...]


Not taking a position here... just curious. Remind me again why TiVo's OTA scanning is different (and perhaps more helpful) than the scanning the HR's do during initial OTA set-up? TIA.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Not taking a position here... just curious. Remind me again why TiVo's OTA scanning is different (and perhaps more helpful) than the scanning the HR's do during initial OTA set-up? TIA.


If I remember correctly the HR10-250 does a blind OTA scan as do all the older DirecTV receivers. So it will pick up any OTA channel it can get a strong enough signal from.

The new DirecTV way is that there is a database/list of OTA channels for your zip code and thus when the HR2x does a scan it is only looking for a signal for stations on that list. The downside to this is that if there is a local channel not in the DirecTV database or a subchannel not listed you can't tune in to it.

My understanding of the design *decision* (not flaw) is this: DirecTV wants to provide full guide data for all it's stations in the guide, including OTA. So it lists out channels it has guide data for in your zip code.

If you allow a full blind scan some of those stations won't have guide data either because DirecTV doesn't have any because the station doesn't properly provide it via Tribune *or* the PSIP data is missing or malformed. This can then cause support calls because of no guide data which makes it harder for a DVR to do it's job.

My belief is that DirecTV wanted to eliminate the support calls for something they cannot change and that is OTA stations with no guide data. By limited the stations to what is in their database this eliminates that issue and guarantees guide data.

The downside though is that when new stations or subchannels pop up DirecTV may be slow to add them, if at all. However, from what I've read so long as you get the local station to provide proper guide data to Tribune that greatly increases the chances of DirecTV adding it to their database.

So both ways have pros and cons. DirecTV decided to go the route of less support calls. However this leaves those that want blind scans in the cold. But this is obviously a very small minority of users.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> If I remember correctly the HR10-250 does a blind OTA scan as do all the older DirecTV receivers. So it will pick up any OTA channel it can get a strong enough signal from [...]


Thanks, Scott. Makes sense now. I'm guessing that OTA channels don't move or get added as frequently as they may have been in the past; that explains why I've had no issues finding my OTA channels with the HR's.

As you point out, finding a channel but having no GUIDE data for it isn't really helpful, but I guess one could manually record that channel if its schedule can be found elsewhere.


----------



## wingrider01

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Most likely the case.
> 
> Figured the first potential look at one is at the CES in January...almost 2 years past the date first expected.


question is what happens if anoter CES rolls around and there is nothing there again - 2012 then?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> question is what happens if anoter CES rolls around and there is nothing there again - 2012 then?


If its not there by this January (2011) ...then never may be the date.


----------



## hancox

bonscott87 said:


> If I remember correctly the HR10-250 does a blind OTA scan as do all the older DirecTV receivers. So it will pick up any OTA channel it can get a strong enough signal from.
> 
> The new DirecTV way is that there is a database/list of OTA channels for your zip code and thus when the HR2x does a scan it is only looking for a signal for stations on that list. The downside to this is that if there is a local channel not in the DirecTV database or a subchannel not listed you can't tune in to it.
> 
> My understanding of the design *decision* (not flaw) is this: DirecTV wants to provide full guide data for all it's stations in the guide, including OTA. So it lists out channels it has guide data for in your zip code.
> 
> If you allow a full blind scan some of those stations won't have guide data either because DirecTV doesn't have any because the station doesn't properly provide it via Tribune *or* the PSIP data is missing or malformed. This can then cause support calls because of no guide data which makes it harder for a DVR to do it's job.
> 
> My belief is that DirecTV wanted to eliminate the support calls for something they cannot change and that is OTA stations with no guide data. By limited the stations to what is in their database this eliminates that issue and guarantees guide data.
> 
> The downside though is that when new stations or subchannels pop up DirecTV may be slow to add them, if at all. However, from what I've read so long as you get the local station to provide proper guide data to Tribune that greatly increases the chances of DirecTV adding it to their database.
> 
> So both ways have pros and cons. DirecTV decided to go the route of less support calls. However this leaves those that want blind scans in the cold. But this is obviously a very small minority of users.


One other situation where this would come in handy - and something that would be more common now...

Interference - especially here in the northeast, where our DMA's (and, unfortunately, due to the FCC being a bunch of idiots) have lots of co-channeling between DMA's.

Having the inability to see which PSIP entry you might be pulling up, on a given channel, makes this unusable, for people in this situation.

Example:

For reasons I won't understand, CBS stations in the NY and Hartford markets (adjoining!) are on RF 33. Without scanning, it's nearly impossible to tell if the receiver is picking up one, both, or neither (interference).

OTA is finnicky enough that scanning is a tool that's needed to help get reception. Everyone else who makes an OTA tuner seems to get this, including Tivo (on topic, see?). D* , for whatever reason, went their own way, and flawed their box.


----------



## bonscott87

hancox said:


> OTA is finnicky enough that scanning is a tool that's needed to help get reception. Everyone else who makes an OTA tuner seems to get this, including Tivo (on topic, see?). D* , for whatever reason, went their own way, and flawed their box.


I'm not saying you're wrong, far from it. But I already gave you the reason: Support costs. Few people with DirecTV use OTA in the first place and a very small % of those care if they can blind scan or not (if they even know what that is). It costs a lot more to field calls from the larger group about no guide data and "how do I record with no guide data" then it is to deal with a handful of complaints that there is no blind scan (which is a quick "it doesn't do that" answer).

You may not like it but it makes financial sense to do what they are doing.


----------



## hancox

bonscott87 said:


> I'm not saying you're wrong, far from it. But I already gave you the reason: Support costs. Few people with DirecTV use OTA in the first place and a very small % of those care if they can blind scan or not (if they even know what that is). It costs a lot more to field calls from the larger group about no guide data and "how do I record with no guide data" then it is to deal with a handful of complaints that there is no blind scan (which is a quick "it doesn't do that" answer).
> 
> You may not like it but it makes financial sense to do what they are doing.


You can't have it both ways. It's either a small group (meaning, with low support costs), or a support burden, due to calls.

Honestly, seeing the history of D* HR2x OTA from the very start, my guess is that the current "solution" was the fastest to get out the door, and was deemed "not essential enough to fix."


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## ejjames

When I do a scan with my 10-250, I get 3 low power digital signals that the HR20's don't see.


----------



## gregjones

hancox said:


> You can't have it both ways. It's either a small group (meaning, with low support costs), or a support burden, due to calls.
> 
> Honestly, seeing the history of D* HR2x OTA from the very start, my guess is that the current "solution" was the fastest to get out the door, and was deemed "not essential enough to fix."


Wrong. You can put a feature in that is only needed by 2% of the population and receive calls from 35% of the population because "it says in the manual I can..." Several have pointed to "it's the only OTA device I know if that doesn't allow scanning." How many DVRs are out that that support OTA? The one that TiVo quit manufacturing years ago? The Dish and DirecTV models? It's not like there are a lot of them at all. This "it's the only one" rationale is weak.

A DVR without accurate guide data is useless. Channels without correct guide data not only screw up their own programming but impact programming on other channels because of prioritization.


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## tkrandall

It has been asserted here that the rational DirecTV probably had in going to a database driven OTA channel availability model was so ensure guide data for all channels/subchannels. 

So, I am curious how many support call DISH gets for missing guide data given their boxes do a traditional OTA scan during setup.


----------



## hancox

gregjones said:


> Wrong. You can put a feature in that is only needed by 2% of the population and receive calls from 35% of the population because "it says in the manual I can..." Several have pointed to "it's the only OTA device I know if that doesn't allow scanning." How many DVRs are out that that support OTA? The one that TiVo quit manufacturing years ago? The Dish and DirecTV models? It's not like there are a lot of them at all. This "it's the only one" rationale is weak.
> 
> A DVR without accurate guide data is useless. Channels without correct guide data not only screw up their own programming but impact programming on other channels because of prioritization.


Funny you say that, because, if memory serves, the original (if not current) manual for the HR2x says that you CAN SCAN. Oops.


----------



## codespy

Some people like me can pickup 3 markets......but the IRD's allow a primary and secondary and that's it, so guide data is limited to two.

Ability to scan picks up the third market. This is helpful sometimes with sports blackouts.


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## Mike Bertelson

I have to wonder how much scanning OTA adds nation wide.

In my area of CT I can't get my local networks any way but I also can't get much of RI's locals.

I grew up in northern NJ and I could get a dozen+ channels with rabbit ears but they were all in NY metro area...nothing from PA or CT.

When I lived in south Jersey I could get a couple of Philly stations and a couple of NYC channels but not the full slate from either.

Same thing in up state NY and Orlando when I lived there. 

All of this makes me wonder, on a national basis, just how much call there would be for scanning OTA and getting out of area channels. Now I suppose that in the mid-west where there is a longer line of sight you could get more out of area stations. Also those that are on the fringes of one area might prefer stations that are outside of their DMA. There is certainly some local sub-channels that aren't currently carried.

My question is what percentage of subs could make use of scanning OTA? 

Would this create enough of a intrest in a new DirecTiVo to make it worth while to include it?

Mike


----------



## Steve

MicroBeta said:


> [...]
> 
> When I lived in south Jersey I could get a couple of Philly stations and a couple of NYC channels but not the full slate from either.
> 
> Same thing in up state NY and Orlando when I lived there [...]


I guess the other question is if the HR2x allowed you to scan for an "out of area" OTA channel, how would DirecTV know that is now a "channel you get" for GUIDE data purposes, if it wasn't a primary or secondary market channel for your zip code? How did the HR10 deal with that, I wonder?


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## codespy

It would show up with no program information.....that's all. It would list the station letters (e.g. WTMJ channel 4-3) and that's it. No info on the info banner or in the guide. That's how the HR10 worked and I believe the H10 as well.


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## gregjones

codespy said:


> It would show up with no program information.....that's all. It would list the station letters (e.g. WTMJ channel 4-3) and that's it. No info on the info banner or in the guide. That's how the HR10 worked and I believe the H10 as well.


And how much value would that add for a DVR where everything is based on guide data?


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## Mike Bertelson

gregjones said:


> And how much value would that add for a DVR where everything is based on guide data?


I guess if you could setup a manual recording on such a channel it might have value.

Mike


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## Doug Brott

The lack of guide data is a big reason for this being a problem ...


----------



## ffemtreed

All those PC/linux based DVR's that get all those channels OTA don't have a problem for people using them. People with DVR's do quite often watch live TV and many places around the country have low power stations for special interests. 

Some of the local providers around me even add / subtract sub channels for special occasions (like city council meetings/ HS football games and etc). DTV only allows me to get 16-1 and 16-2, heck it won't even let me see the live weather radar on 16-3. 

The CSR problem can be 90% quashed with a little slide in place of the guide data that explains that this is not a direct tv channel and the local channel doesn't provide guide data to DTV or its affiliates. Contact your local TV provider to tell them to inform whomever needs informed about the guide data. 

This is just one of many recent decisions by DTV that they would rather just sit back instead of being an industry leader. DTV used to have all the "cutting edge" technology, but even the cable companies are starting to catch up.


----------



## Steve

ffemtreed said:


> [...] Some of the local providers around me even add / subtract sub channels for special occasions (like city council meetings/ HS football games and etc). DTV only allows me to get 16-1 and 16-2, heck it won't even let me see the live weather radar on 16-3.
> 
> The CSR problem can be 90% quashed with a little slide in place of the guide data that explains that this is not a direct tv channel and the local channel doesn't provide guide data to DTV or its affiliates. Contact your local TV provider to tell them to inform whomever needs informed about the guide data.


You make a good case for OTA scanning and why it could be helpful to some, IMO, and I think your solution is a good one.



> This is just one of many recent decisions by DTV that they would rather just sit back instead of being an industry leader. DTV used to have all the "cutting edge" technology, but even the cable companies are starting to catch up.


You've got me :scratchin with this statement, tho. I think DirecTV does a remarkable job innovating, considering it's handicapped by the fact that satellite technology is basically "one-way" vs. cable's ability to be fully interactive. Just my .02.


----------



## ffemtreed

Steve said:


> You make a good case for while OTA scanning could be helpful to some, and I think your solution is a good one.
> 
> You've got me :scratchin with this statement, tho. I think DirecTV does a remarkable job innovating, considering it's handicapped by the fact that satellite technology is basically "one-way" vs. cable's ability to be fully interactive.


I'll put my last statement into perspective:

a couple years ago I gave my friend my old HR10-250 to use and he still has it today. He lives about a mile from me and we planned a small cookout and fishing trip this past weekend.

So we have our cookout and start loading up for our fishing trip and it looks like rain, so we go into the house he grabs my remote and tries to get the live radar on 16-3 just like he does when he is at home, of course he can't get it and asks me why I can't get it.

I had to explain to him because he has an older box than mine that allows him to get the channel, but since I have a newer box its not capable of getting that channel.

He asked me if I wanted my old box back!!!


----------



## Steve

ffemtreed said:


> I'll put my last statement into perspective:
> 
> a couple years ago I gave my friend my old HR10-250 to use and he still has it today. He lives about a mile from me and we planned a small cookout and fishing trip this past weekend.
> 
> So we have our cookout and start loading up for our fishing trip and it looks like rain, so we go into the house he grabs my remote and tries to get the live radar on 16-3 just like he does when he is at home, of course he can't get it and asks me why I can't get it.
> 
> I had to explain to him because he has an older box than mine that allows him to get the channel, but since I have a newer box its not capable of getting that channel.
> 
> He asked me if I wanted my old box back!!!


No arguments with that example. It feels like a step backwards for your particular needs, so I understand.

But if that's the only thing that makes you think cable is more "innovative", how many cableco's offer OTA reception at all on their equipment? Or even provide multi-room viewing capability?


----------



## SledgeHammer

Doug Brott said:


> New DIRECTV TiVo before 2011? Won't happen.


I'm willing to bet there will *NEVER* be a new DIRECTV TiVo. DTV just signed a deal saying "blah, blah, blah, don't sue us, blah, blah, blah, sure, do whatever you want <snicker>, blah, blah, blah".

There really ain't no point in offering one.


----------



## ffemtreed

Steve said:


> No arguments with that example. It feels like a step backwards for your particular needs, so I understand.
> 
> But if that's the only thing that makes you think cable is more "innovative", how many cableco's offer OTA reception at all on their equipment? Or even provide multi-room viewing capability?


We are getting a little too off topic, but its just not features that make me feel the way I do, Its the whole attitude as a company that has changed (my impression). 5 years ago DTV strived to be the clear cut leader from anything. Now it seems they are just happy to be comparable to the rest of the pack and have become very reactive instead of proactive. The addition of new channels is the most recent blaring indicator to this, even with a brand new shiny sat in the sky, Dish is still adding more HD channels than DTV is. The guide on the boxes still looks like something out of the mid 80's, almost all the other providers have made some modern improvements to the guides over the past 5 years. I would love to see a nice HR24-PRO with 2TB HD mirror or some other features. Again mentioning the HR24, that new box was a catchup and only on par with DISH's faster receivers. 5 years ago DTV would have not only matched the speed but made it twice as fast and set a new bar for everyone else to catch up to.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ffemtreed said:


> We are getting a little too off topic, but its just not features that make me feel the way I do, Its the whole attitude as a company that has changed (my impression). 5 years ago DTV strived to be the clear cut leader from anything. Now it seems they are just happy to be comparable to the rest of the pack and have become very reactive instead of proactive. The addition of new channels is the most recent blaring indicator to this, even with a brand new shiny sat in the sky, Dish is still adding more HD channels than DTV is. The guide on the boxes still looks like something out of the mid 80's, almost all the other providers have made some modern improvements to the guides over the past 5 years. I would love to see a nice HR24-PRO with 2TB HD mirror or some other features. Again mentioning the HR24, that new box was a catchup and only on par with DISH's faster receivers. 5 years ago DTV would have not only matched the speed but made it twice as fast and set a new bar for everyone else to catch up to.


While my view is not the same as yours on most of those points, I respect your views.

Fact is they remain the leader in the field using multiple measurements (subscribers, HD channels, etc. They have introduced more new technology in the past 2-3 years than most of the competitors combined (SWiM, DECA, WHDS, HR24 to just name a few).

You cited the speed of the Dish HD receivers as an advantage in their direction, yet the folks I have seen with those haven't demonstrated anything definitively better to me in viewing theirs. Also, perhaps they may be a bit quicker because they simply do less, in terms of capabilities.

Going back to your closing statement...yes....this is all off target.

As for any new DirecTV TiVo unit...

I suspect we are getting close to the point where we'll either hear/see/read information about a launch date in the months ahead soon....no more silence through the end of the year. If the later happens...the chances of such a unit ever appearing seem to diminish with each passing month. So does any potential mainstream interest in it.


----------



## Steve

> The addition of new channels is the most recent blaring indicator to this, even with a brand new shiny sat in the sky, Dish is still adding more HD channels than DTV is. The guide on the boxes still looks like something out of the mid 80's, almost all the other providers have made some modern improvements to the guides over the past 5 years. I would love to see a nice HR24-PRO with 2TB HD mirror or some other features. Again mentioning the HR24, that new box was a catchup and only on par with DISH's faster receivers. 5 years ago DTV would have not only matched the speed but made it twice as fast and set a new bar for everyone else to catch up to.


I think we sometimes hold D* up to higher standard than the competition because it's _our_ provider, and just like _our_ kids, we want them to be better than everyone else's kids. I know at least I do. 

To be honest, I've only seen other MSO's _prototypes_ of an HD GUIDE... none of the providers in my area (FIOS, Cablevision, DISH) have implemented such a GUIDE yet. And even the new TiVO "Premiere" UI taunts its users by providing some parts of the GUI in HD and some in SD. What's up with that?

Regarding the HD channels, I don't know what's holding them up (technical or business issues), but the capacity is there, so I have no doubt we'll get them sooner or later. I admit there are only a couple of SD shows I still watch regularly, and the other 95% of my shows are already available in HD, so maybe I'm just not as irked by this as some.


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> I think we sometimes hold D* up to higher standard than the competition because it's _our_ provider, and just like _our_ kids, we want them to be better than everyone else's kids. I know at least I do.
> 
> To be honest, I've only seen other MSO's _prototypes_ of an HD GUIDE, but none of the providers in my area (FIOS, Cablevision, DISH) have implemented such a GUIDE yet. And even the new TiVO "Premiere" UI taunts its users by providing some parts of the GUI in HD and some in SD. What's up with that?
> 
> Regarding the HD channels, I don't know what's holding them up (technical or business issues), but the capacity is there, so I have no doubt we'll get them sooner or later. I admit there are only a couple of SD shows I still watch regularly, and the other 95% of my shows are already available in HD, so maybe I'm not just as irked by this as some.


Same thoughts here.

HR24 is quick and gets the job done.

And as a household we're probably missing just a few HD channels (E!, HLN, ...).

Still interested to see what the new TiVo looks like, just because it's a new offering on my favorite TV provider.


----------



## mkdtv21

I know I'm new here. But if this new Directv Tivo is just basically an Mpeg 4 HR 10 then will the software be series two or three. I know it won't be Premiere.


----------



## Doug Brott

mkdtv21 said:


> I know I'm new here. But if this new Directv Tivo is just basically an Mpeg 4 HR 10 then will the software be series two or three. I know it won't be Premiere.


I'm not sure anyone knows for sure at this point, but a simple "guess" is probably gonna get you closer than anything else. It's not gonna be the ultra new (half HD, half SD) Interface. It will likely look a whole lot like the HR10 from a use perspective.


----------



## ffemtreed

Steve said:


> I think we sometimes hold D* up to higher standard than the competition because it's _our_ provider, and just like _our_ kids, we want them to be better than everyone else's kids. I know at least I do.
> 
> To be honest, I've only seen other MSO's _prototypes_ of an HD GUIDE... none of the providers in my area (FIOS, Cablevision, DISH) have implemented such a GUIDE yet. And even the new TiVO "Premiere" UI taunts its users by providing some parts of the GUI in HD and some in SD. What's up with that?
> 
> Regarding the HD channels, I don't know what's holding them up (technical or business issues), but the capacity is there, so I have no doubt we'll get them sooner or later. I admit there are only a couple of SD shows I still watch regularly, and the other 95% of my shows are already available in HD, so maybe I'm just not as irked by this as some.


I chose DTV because they used to hold themselves up to a higher standard to offer the best. They started the whole HD revolution to the home and had a huge lead, then somehow fell behind and are now catching up in the channels that people view most.

My comment about the guide has nothing to do with HD, I would actually prefer a guide that is designed for 16X9 and gave some additional real estate to list more than 5 channels and 1.5 hours of shows. Maybe a color gradient or something to make it look like something from this century.

I am hoping we will see a whole home media server with a PC/Andriod app to be able to manage recordings and etc. Maybe be able to service both the vaporware tivo and the existing HR's as clients.

three years ago I was promised by DTV a new TIVO within 6 months when they talked me into giving up my HR10-250 for a new HR. Other than the speed and the guide I am pretty happy with the HR but with the disappointments on the D11 and D12 channels so far I refuse to extend my contract to upgrade to the HR24's, as much as I would like to have the extra speed.


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## ejjames

If I can't have an HD guide, I would at least like it to look a little more polished. Even the score guide has some color variation. The current guide just looks flat. How's that for superficial.


----------



## jaywdetroit

fernly said:


> A new story by Troy Wolverton at the San Jose (CA) Mercury News describes local company TiVo as "down but not out" citing the numerous deals signed in the past year with e.g. Virgin, Cox, RCN, Best Buy.
> 
> Obvious question, if they are busy porting versions of their software for so many different vendors, have they time to do a DTV version? Supporting so many different platforms must spread their techs rather thin.


When you own a Premiere and you see how much work they have left to do on that, it really puts things in perspective. They are moving slow on that unit, which is in a similar position as the HR20 was 6 months or so after its release.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jaywdetroit said:


> When you own a Premiere and you see how much work they have left to do on that, it really puts things in perspective. They are moving slow on that unit, which is in a similar position as the HR20 was 6 months or so after its release.


Excellent point.

If and when a new Tivobox is released...the probability it needs more work for some time will be quite high, if history is any example. The other unknown is whether it has any *significant* differentiators besides a TiVo badge on it.


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If and when a new Tivobox is released...the probability it needs more work for some time will be quite high,* if history is any example*.


What history? The 2010 TiVo _Premiere_ is their first departure from the classic TiVO UI found on every other TiVO dating back to 1999. Or put another way, no other TiVO released in the past few years _except_ the _Premiere _was released as a "work in progress".

The more I think about it, the more I think *Doug* is right and the new box will simply be an MPEG-4 HR10. *In that case the existing, DirecTiVO UI is already a proven commodity*, so that work is done. Whats probably taking time right now is the MPEG-4 and under the hood tweaking on the new hardware.



> The other unknown is whether it has any *significant* differentiators besides a TiVo badge on it.


See above.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> What history? ....
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I think *Doug* is right and the new box will simply be an MPEG-4 HR10. *In that case the existing, DirecTiVO UI is already a proven commodity*, so that work is done. Whats probably taking time right now is the MPEG-4 and under the hood tweaking on the new hardware.


The history is that every new unit they introduce is bug-laden.

I also don't think an MPEG-4 HR10 alone would take this long (2-3 years) to release.

I also suspect it will be a custom UI for DirecTV, which may account for the lengthy time to market. As for being a "proven commodity"...ask Comcast customers what they think of the Tivo offering...I can find you 2 that hate it, and another who thinks it's quite "average".

As for the device footprint/design....I suspect it will more physically resemble an HR2x unit than anything else - yes - an MPEG-4 for the most part....

If just 2 of those things come into play...it will be quite the underwhelming release.

Unless it has something that is a *true differentiator*....its already destined to climb the HD DVR Mt. Everest for adoption.


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The history is that every new unit they introduce is bug-laden.


That's news to me. I used TiVO's and sat TiVo's exclusively from 1999 to 2007 and every new release of software was extremely well-tested and essentially bug-free, including the HR10-250. Some HR10's had hardware issues (HDMI), but no major s/w issues that I can recall.



> I also don't think an MPEG-4 HR10 alone would take this long (2-3 years) to release.


Neither did I. But *codespy's *find of the THR22-100 tells me upon which Broadcom chipset it will likely be based. If so, I don't expect to see more than an MPEG-4 HR10, with the same "proven" DirecTiVO UI. _Maybe _MRV as well. Just my .02.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> That's news to me. I used TiVO's and sat TiVo's exclusively from 1999 to 2007 and every new release of software was extremely well-tested and essentially bug-free, including the HR10-250. Some HR10's had hardware issues (HDMI), but no major s/w issues that I can recall.


Methinks you either were lucky or just fondly remember Tivo so well you forget the bugs. I got my first stand alone Tivo back in 2000 and every new release had plenty of bugs. And Tivo was *very* slow to fix them, even when they were pretty bad. So let's not go down the road that the TCF forums seem to go and just bury our heads in the sand and think that Tivo is perfect.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> Methinks you either were lucky or just fondly remember TiVo so well you forget the bugs. I got my first stand alone TiVo back in 2000 and every new release had plenty of bugs. And TiVo was *very* slow to fix them, even when they were pretty bad. So let's not go down the road that the TCF forums seem to go and just bury our heads in the sand and think that TiVo is perfect.


My experience as well.

Having a close friend involved with the Comcast TiVobox launch...it was no better, in some ways worse...based on Comcast "owning" little to address customer complaints.

One thing that has remained consistent over the past year from most views - unless this new unit has something that makes it "stand out", few will pay an added TiVo fee nor get excited about "just another HD DVR".


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## DarinC

I also remember my use of TiVos to be relatively stable. I do vaguely remember one issue that caused some problems (don't remember the details). But overall, my experience with HR21s have been much more buggy than the TiVos ever were for me. My experience is solely based on the D-TiVos. Never had a stand-alone.


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## tonyd79

Steve said:


> What history? The 2010 TiVo _Premiere_ is their first departure from the classic TiVO UI found on every other TiVO dating back to 1999. Or put another way, no other TiVO released in the past few years _except_ the _Premiere _was released as a "work in progress".


You are also forgetting the Comcast Tivo. As did just about everyone else.


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## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> You are also forgetting the Comcast Tivo. As did just about everyone else.


:lol:


----------



## Steve

DarinC said:


> I also remember my use of TiVos to be relatively stable. I do vaguely remember one issue that caused some problems (don't remember the details). But overall, my experience with HR21s have been much more buggy than the TiVos ever were for me. My experience is solely based on the D-TiVos. Never had a stand-alone.


The software on my first DirecTiVO, the circa 2002 Sony T60, was essentially the same as the stand-alone TiVO I used with cable before that. And the same for the HDVR2's and HR10-250's I used after that.


----------



## ATARI

ffemtreed said:


> I'll put my last statement into perspective:
> 
> a couple years ago I gave my friend my old HR10-250 to use and he still has it today. He lives about a mile from me and we planned a small cookout and fishing trip this past weekend.
> 
> So we have our cookout and start loading up for our fishing trip and it looks like rain, so we go into the house he grabs my remote and tries to get the live radar on 16-3 just like he does when he is at home, of course he can't get it and asks me why I can't get it.
> 
> I had to explain to him because he has an older box than mine that allows him to get the channel, but since I have a newer box its not capable of getting that channel.
> 
> He asked me if I wanted my old box back!!!


If I want local radar, I use TVapps.

If that doesn't work for you, the Weather Channel shows local radar on the 8s.


----------



## gregjones

ffemtreed said:


> three years ago I was promised by DTV a new TIVO within 6 months when they talked me into giving up my HR10-250 for a new HR.


Not to nitpick, but TIVO made promises about the timeline, not DIRECTV.


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## gregjones

Steve said:


> The software on my first DirecTiVO, the circa 2002 Sony T60, was essentially the same as the stand-alone TiVO I used with cable before that. And the same for the HDVR2's and HR10-250's I used after that.


The interface was mostly the same. The software was quite different.


----------



## Steve

gregjones said:


> The interface was mostly the same. The software was quite different.


Probably so! I was referring to the user interface, so poor choice of words.  More evidence how well the ported software was tested before release, tho, since my user experience was the same on each product.


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## Steve

ffemtreed said:


> three years ago I was promised by DTV a new TIVO within 6 months when they talked me into giving up my HR10-250 for a new HR. Other than the speed and the guide I am pretty happy with the HR but with the disappointments on the D11 and D12 channels so far I refuse to extend my contract to upgrade to the HR24's, as much as I would like to have the extra speed.





gregjones said:


> Not to nitpick, but TIVO made promises about the timeline, not DIRECTV.


True, and could also have been a case of that CSR not having a firm grasp of the facts, which happens often.


----------



## Doug Brott

DarinC said:


> I also remember my use of TiVos to be relatively stable. I do vaguely remember one issue that caused some problems (don't remember the details). But overall, my experience with HR21s have been much more buggy than the TiVos ever were for me. My experience is solely based on the D-TiVos. Never had a stand-alone.


While TiVo has certainly had it's share of missteps over the years, one thing is certain. When the HR20 first came out, the HR10-250 and pretty much all other TiVo platforms at the time were enjoying a period of great stability. So it's easy to see how folks remember that fondly .. going from stable to unstable (very first HR20s).

Still, TiVo (to me) is a company that has more potential than actual substance. If they were a 1 or 2 year old company, then great, but what is it now 11? 12 years? At this point, the question that should be asked of TiVo is "Where's the beef?"


----------



## Doug Brott

gregjones said:


> Not to nitpick, but TIVO made promises about the timeline, not DIRECTV.


I may have misinterpreted, but I took it to mean that a DIRECTV CSR made those bold statements .. based on the time line, it was a few months prior to the actual announcement from DIRECTV/TiVo that they were signing a new agreement. At that point in the evolution, I was (erroneously) claiming right here on DBSTalk that it would never happen.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> Probably so! I was referring to the user interface, so poor choice of words.  More evidence how well the ported software was tested before release, tho, since my user experience was the same on each product.


The first DIRECTV TiVo (SD version) took 6-12 months to hash out all of the issues. It's competition at the time? A VHS VCR. NOT having to take swap tapes was a huge, huge feature so it was easy to overlook deficiencies. One thing TiVo did do was raise the bar. We wanted more. For my service? TiVo decided after that 6-12 month period that they were done developing for that hardware. If I wanted more, I had to buy new hardware. :shrug:

Say what you want about DIRECTV, but so far, other than 3D on the HR20, DIRECTV hasn't left any of the HD DVRs behind in the development cycle. We're now working on the 5th year of in-production service for the platform.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> The first DIRECTV TiVo (SD version) took 6-12 months to hash out all of the issues. It's competition at the time? A VHS VCR. NOT having to take swap tapes was a huge, huge feature so it was easy to overlook deficiencies. One thing TiVo did do was raise the bar. We wanted more. For my service? TiVo decided after that 6-12 month period that they were done developing for that hardware. If I wanted more, I had to buy new hardware. :shrug:


I moved from a cable-connected Philips TiVO "Series 1" to the Sony SAT-T60. It was a pretty seamless transition. I guess from what you are saying, there was a DirecTiVO before that?


----------



## usnret

I'm not against Tivo, I have one (HD) and use it for ota. What, exactly, would a D Tivo do for me, that my HR24 and HR22 (MRV'd) can't do already? I'm not trying to put c**p on a D Tivo, just want to know.


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> I moved from a cable-connected Philips TiVO "Series 1" to the Sony SAT-T60. It was a pretty seamless transition. I guess from what you are saying is there was a DirecTiVO before that?


It's not the "what you got" .. it's the "when you got." The 2002 SAT-T60 was the same as the 2000 SAT-T60 that I got .. by the time my 6-12 month stabilization period was completed, it was still 6-12 months before you jumped in.


----------



## CuriousMark

Steve said:


> Neither did I. But *codespy's *find of the THR22-100 tells me upon which Broadcom chipset it will likely be based. If so, I don't expect to see more than an MPEG-4 HR10, with the same "proven" DirecTiVO UI. _Maybe _MRV as well. Just my .02.


TiVo having joined MoCA would indicate that DTV style MRV support is a reasonable probability.


----------



## Doug Brott

usnret said:


> I'm not against Tivo, I have one (HD) and use it for ota. What, exactly, would a D Tivo do for me, that my HR24 and HR22 (MRV'd) can't do already? I'm not trying to put c**p on a D Tivo, just want to know.


I think that's the very question many folks have asked over the past 2+ years .. generally, it seems the best response is "It's a TiVo."


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> It's not the "what you got" .. it's the "when you got." The 2002 SAT-T60 was the same as the 2000 SAT-T60 that I got .. by the time my 6-12 month stabilization period was completed, it was still 6-12 months before you jumped in.


Gotcha. So for once, I was spared early adopter grief!  After that, tho, the HDVR2 and HR10 were smooth sailing as well for me, except for the HDMI issues some folks had with the HR10 h/w, IIRC.


----------



## Steve

usnret said:


> I'm not against Tivo, I have one (HD) and use it for ota. What, exactly, would a D Tivo do for me, that my HR24 and HR22 (MRV'd) can't do already? I'm not trying to put c**p on a D Tivo, just want to know.





Doug Brott said:


> I think that's the very question many folks have asked over the past 2+ years .. generally, it seems the best response is "It's a TiVo."


And don't forget the "peanut"! 

(I actually loved that remote. )


----------



## joed32

Steve said:


> And don't forget the "peanut"!
> 
> (I actually loved that remote. )


I still use one to control my SD TVs.


----------



## ffemtreed

gregjones said:


> Not to nitpick, but TIVO made promises about the timeline, not DIRECTV.


Not to Nitpick, but I was in fact talking to DTV when they promised me a new TIVO box that will get all the new HD channels. I bet its still in my DTV secret account notes.


----------



## ffemtreed

usnret said:


> I'm not against Tivo, I have one (HD) and use it for ota. What, exactly, would a D Tivo do for me, that my HR24 and HR22 (MRV'd) can't do already? I'm not trying to put c**p on a D Tivo, just want to know.


My list:

#1 List style guide
#2 More than 50 season passes
#3 Wishlists
#4 full time double buffers
#5 A box that actually responds to the remote channel numbers
#6 auto recording suggestions when there is free drive space available

PS -- just to keep it real, I can quickly come up with a list of 6 things my HR does that the Tivo doesn't. I was just answering the question.


----------



## ffemtreed

Steve said:


> And don't forget the "peanut"!
> 
> (I actually loved that remote. )


i still do love that remote, which is why i stick to my harmony 880.


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## tonyd79

"Steve" said:


> And don't forget the "peanut"!
> 
> (I actually loved that remote. )


I hated the peanut. Never understood the layout or why the pause button is bigger than play. Couldn't program the stuff into my universal fast enough.


----------



## tonyd79

"ffemtreed" said:


> My list:
> 
> #1 List style guide
> #2 More than 50 season passes
> #3 Wishlists
> #4 full time double buffers
> #5 A box that actually responds to the remote channel numbers
> #6 auto recording suggestions when there is free drive space available
> 
> PS -- just to keep it real, I can quickly come up with a list of 6 things my HR does that the Tivo doesn't. I was just answering the question.


Wishlists exist.

As for the rest. I don't care about any of them. Especially since my HRs are as responsive as my HD TiVo was.

More season passes would be nice but I don't have a total of 50 on all my DVRs (one fios).


----------



## ffemtreed

tonyd79 said:


> Wishlists exist.
> 
> As for the rest. I don't care about any of them. Especially since my HRs are as responsive as my HD TiVo was.
> 
> More season passes would be nice but I don't have a total of 50 on all my DVRs (one fios).


I havn't played with it for awhile, but with my TIVO I could just do a wishlist for, lets say, Garth Brooks and it would record any show that the name showed up in the guide data for.

Can I do this with the HR's now without having some screwy boolean logic long search thing? last time I tried I could only do it for a specific channel.

maybe i will play with it more when I get home tonight!


----------



## Steve

ffemtreed said:


> I havn't played with it for awhile, but with my TIVO I could just do a wishlist for, lets say, Garth Brooks and it would record any show that the name showed up in the guide data for.
> 
> Can I do this with the HR's now without having some screwy boolean logic long search thing? last time I tried I could only do it for a specific channel.


OT, but since you asked.  Go to Smart Search. Key in "Garth Brooks" and hit the RED button. That will do a keyword search. At the end of that, select AUTORECORD. Any time his name shows up in the future, those shows (and future matches) should be auto-scheduled, if possible.


----------



## ffemtreed

Steve said:


> OT, but since you asked.  Go to Smart Search. Key in "Garth Brooks" and hit the RED button. That will do a keyword search. At the end of that, select AUTORECORD. Any time his name shows up in the future, those shows (and future matches) should be auto-scheduled, if possible.


Thanks!


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Gotcha. So for once, I was spared early adopter grief!  After that, tho, the HDVR2 and HR10 were smooth sailing as well for me, except for the HDMI issues some folks had with the HR10 h/w, IIRC.


Ding! I lost an entire season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer due to the Tivo bugs on the T-60 and the wife was not pleased. :nono2: After that I vowed to always have 2 DVRs to back up the other in case of issues (which was good because I needed it). Yea...these were Tivo's...not HR2x's.

By my recollection by 2002/03 or so most of the major issues had been ironed out, but some did remain.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> Ding! I lost an entire season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer due to the Tivo bugs on the T-60 and the wife was not pleased. :nono2: After that I vowed to always have 2 DVRs to back up the other in case of issues (which was good because I needed it). Yea...these were Tivo's...not HR2x's.


I wonder if early scheduling problems didn't have to do with TiVO becoming accustomed to TMS data? IIRC, my cable TiVO data came from TiVO themselves.


> By my recollection by 2002/03 or so most of the major issues had been ironed out, but some did remain.


I would have remembered missing shows! :lol: I do recall when I first got the T60, same as my Series 1, only single tuner recording was allowed, but not for long... a matter of a few weeks, IIRC. So if you know when that feature was enabled, that will give you an idea when I switched over. I thought it was 2002, but it was so long ago... :scratchin

BTW, that original 1999 Series 1 was still being used by my daughter up until last year, when she eBay'ed it.


----------



## E91

ffemtreed said:


> My list:
> 
> #1 List style guide
> #2 More than 50 season passes
> #3 Wishlists
> #4 full time double buffers
> #5 A box that actually responds to the remote channel numbers
> #6 auto recording suggestions when there is free drive space available
> 
> PS -- just to keep it real, I can quickly come up with a list of 6 things my HR does that the Tivo doesn't. I was just answering the question.


The HR24 has features like # 3 (in the form of the "autorecord" under "smart search") and definitely has #5. It has a clunky workaround for 4 too.

I still prefer TIVO because the interface is smoother and the search feature is light years beyond. And, I miss #6 too. But, I probably wouldn't switch to TIVO at this point because the HR24 is pretty nice too.


----------



## gregjones

Steve said:


> Probably so! I was referring to the user interface, so poor choice of words.  More evidence how well the ported software was tested before release, tho, since my user experience was the same on each product.


No, a lot of it has to do with things you can not check off of a list. For instance, my trusty Sony DirecTivo was much more prone to have issues with power. It also had many more issues with missed programs than I have ever experienced with my HR20-700.

The consistency of the UI has nothing to do with the consistency of the underlying software. If well-designed they should be two fairly separate layers.

Using consistency of interface as a plus for the Tivo would actually be to DIRECTV's benefit as well, since they went out of their way to keep the interface consistent across their receiver and DVR lineup (much to the displeasure of those requesting an HD interface).


----------



## gregjones

Doug Brott said:


> It's not the "what you got" .. it's the "when you got." The 2002 SAT-T60 was the same as the 2000 SAT-T60 that I got .. by the time my 6-12 month stabilization period was completed, it was still 6-12 months before you jumped in.


As an early recipient of the same SAT-T60 in 2000, I would agree. It stabilized before you got yours in 2002. Some would argue that it then started to stagnate. I had jumped ship by 2004 (I recall that only because of the Olympics and the 3 commercials available on the HD feed) to a horrible but HD-capable cable DVR at that point.

I left because I was not convinced that the HR10 presented a value to me in the years before my local stations had a decent HD signal and HD LIL was years away for my DMA.


----------



## gregjones

ffemtreed said:


> Not to Nitpick, but I was in fact talking to DTV when they promised me a new TIVO box that will get all the new HD channels. I bet its still in my DTV secret account notes.


In that case, I regret your having faith in a CSR. I have yet to have an instance (6 years on old hardware through SAT-T60, 3 years on new EQ) when the CSR had more information than I had when I called. I am sure it happens for some, but not for me. Each time I have had a conversation, I was more well-versed in both DIRECTV's public and rumored timelines compared to the rep.


----------



## tonyd79

E91 said:


> The HR24 has features like # 3 (in the form of the "autorecord" under "smart search") and definitely has #5. It has a clunky workaround for 4 too.
> 
> I still prefer TIVO because the interface is smoother and the search feature is light years beyond. And, I miss #6 too. But, I probably wouldn't switch to TIVO at this point because the HR24 is pretty nice too.


We are going to have to disagree. I think the HR interface is smoother. Popup menus for many things when the Tivo took over the screen for everything. I find the HR GUI more consistent as well (and I was using an HD Tivo until spring of this year, so I am talking relatively current usage). This was particularly so because even with the "old" GUI, Tivo was starting to make a hodge-podge mess of what they had to start with.

I don't see how the double play is clunky in any way shape or form. Just that it is not always on? It actually works better than the Tivo because the tuners are independent rather than the Tivo dueling dance they do. BTW, Tivo got rid of the down arrow for switching buffers. That made sense and they got rid of it.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> I wonder if early scheduling problems didn't have to do with TiVO becoming accustomed to TMS data? IIRC, my cable TiVO data came from TiVO themselves.I would have remembered missing shows! :lol: I do recall when I first got the T60, same as my Series 1, only single tuner recording was allowed, but not for long... a matter of a few weeks, IIRC. So if you know when that feature was enabled, that will give you an idea when I switched over. I thought it was 2002, but it was so long ago... :scratchin
> 
> BTW, that original 1999 Series 1 was still being used by my daughter up until last year, when she eBay'ed it.


I didn't miss shows on the T60 but I sure did on the HR10. Even on the HD Tivo, though not as much as the HR10. My HR20 was more stable and more reliable in the time I ran it and the HD Tivo side by side.


----------



## gregjones

ffemtreed said:


> #2 More than 50 season passes


Most of these are design choices, not flaws. But I will agree with you on one in particular. #2 is absolutely a design flaw. Especially with the addition of a summer season that is, for the most part, completely separate from the normal TV season it is very easy to hit the 50 series limit. NBC cancelling shows every other week makes for some fairly complicated season pass management, too.


----------



## JBernardK

gregjones said:


> Most of these are design choices, not flaws. But I will agree with you on one in particular. #2 is absolutely a design flaw. Especially with the addition of a summer season that is, for the most part, completely separate from the normal TV season it is very easy to hit the 50 series limit. NBC cancelling shows every other week makes for some fairly complicated season pass management, too.


I would call it a marketing ploy. They get you to lease two DVRs to get more than 50 series links.


----------



## E91

tonyd79 said:


> We are going to have to disagree. I think the HR interface is smoother. Popup menus for many things when the Tivo took over the screen for everything. I find the HR GUI more consistent as well (and I was using an HD Tivo until spring of this year, so I am talking relatively current usage). This was particularly so because even with the "old" GUI, Tivo was starting to make a hodge-podge mess of what they had to start with.
> 
> I* don't see how the double play is clunky in any way shape or form. Just that it is not always on? It actually works better than the Tivo because the tuners are independent rather than the Tivo dueling dance they do. *BTW, Tivo got rid of the down arrow for switching buffers. That made sense and they got rid of it.


Yup, I think it is clunky because it is not always on. I generally want the buffers under very specific situation. With TIVO, I'd be watching a show on one tuner, than switch to the other, only to discover something else interesting. So, then I could rewind, record what I've missed, and switch back to the original show.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Tivo's dueling dance." With my old DirecTIVO boxes, both tuners buffered independently of each other and I could easily swap back and forth.


----------



## gregjones

JBernardK said:


> I would call it a marketing ploy. They get you to lease two DVRs to get more than 50 series links.


No, it is the result of someone projecting their requirement into the system. Some developer or analyst decided they would never need more than 50 series links. They probably did some math to justify it...

3 hours of primetime X 2 tuners X 5 nights = 30 ... no problem

Figure that one of the hours each night has 30 minute shows -> 40 ... close but ok

Well, if two hours a night have 30 minute shows, you end up conceivably using all 50 allotted just on primetime broadcast shows on both tuners. Problem.

As far as the conspiracy, I just don't buy it. I never assume there is malice when ignorance, incompetence and/or apathy can explain the phenomenon as well.


----------



## gregjones

E91 said:


> Yup, I think it is clunky because it is not always on. I generally want the buffers under very specific situation. With TIVO, I'd be watching a show on one tuner, than switch to the other, only to discover something else interesting. So, then I could rewind, record what I've missed, and switch back to the original show.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "Tivo's dueling dance." With my old DirecTIVO boxes, both tuners buffered independently of each other and I could easily swap back and forth.


I loved my Tivo when I had it. DLB is beautiful and I relied on it heavily. But on a number of occasions, it let me down by running out of buffer at the end of a game. This happened to a lot of users, all of whom complained loudly, after pausing a game for a long time. Missing the end of a football game because of DLB's bad decision was actually the reason I left DirecTV. The Tivo was the only option at the time for DVR and you could not change DLB behavior. Since game X was on when I turned on the TV, it seemed rational that I would get to continue to watch the game. But when the buffer is cleared, it *really* gets cleared.

The HR2x implementation, though not as intuitive, is much more predictable. A later recording doesn't leave you without the last 3 minutes of a game unexpectedly.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> I didn't miss shows on the T60 but I sure did on the HR10. Even on the HD Tivo, though not as much as the HR10. My HR20 was more stable and more reliable in the time I ran it and the HD Tivo side by side.


I had the opposite experience, and I was an early adopter of the HR10. I paid about $1100 apiece for my first two, after tax. D'oh!

I don't ever recall missing shows on the HR10, but vividly remember going through a bad stretch of HR20 missed shows and blank recordings a couple of years ago (months after I switched to HR20's in the spring of 2007). And it wasn't just me. IIRC, there used to be a thread specifically to report those.


----------



## tonyd79

E91 said:


> Yup, I think it is clunky because it is not always on. I generally want the buffers under very specific situation. With TIVO, I'd be watching a show on one tuner, than switch to the other, only to discover something else interesting. So, then I could rewind, record what I've missed, and switch back to the original show.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "Tivo's dueling dance." With my old DirecTIVO boxes, both tuners buffered independently of each other and I could easily swap back and forth.


Nope. Here is the Tivo dual buffer dance:

Set Tuner A to channel 206.

Set Tuner B to channel 207.

Be on Tuner B. Down channel button. Changes channel to Channel 206. Down button again. Go to next channel down (205? 203? whatever). Channel 206 buffer is lost. Even though I "thought" I was on Tuner B. Tuner A took over when I went to channel 206.

On HR. This does not happen. When both buffers are on 206. Both buffers are live on 206. You do not lose a buffer you do not expect.

As for always on. I really don't care. I don't watch that much live TV (that is why I have a DVR) and I don't care about the one or two times a month I would fall into the category you just described. Not that I prefer the non-fulltime buffers. Just that I don't care. I use buffers very specifically only.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> I had the opposite experience, and I was an early adopter of the HR10. I paid about $1100 apiece for my first two, after tax. D'oh!
> 
> I don't ever recall missing shows on the HR10, but vividly remember going through a bad stretch of HR20 missed shows and blank recordings a couple of years ago (months after I switched to HR20's in the spring of 2007). And it wasn't just me. IIRC, there used to be a thread specifically to report those.


Really? You didn't go through the fiasco of completely disappearing recordings and channels (!) on the HR10 when the guide data changed and the Tivo couldn't handle the changes?

Gee, there was meltdown on tivocommunity at that time. And emergency patches to the guide data as well as to the software.


----------



## litzdog911

tonyd79 said:


> Really? You didn't go through the fiasco of completely disappearing recordings and channels (!) on the HR10 when the guide data changed and the Tivo couldn't handle the changes?
> 
> Gee, there was meltdown on tivocommunity at that time. And emergency patches to the guide data as well as to the software.


I remember those problems with my HR10-250 in the early days! I think it's safe to bet that the early software in the new HD DirecTivo will certainly have bugs, too. And it's also clear that the longer it takes to bring to market, the smaller that market will be.

I actually just deactivated last HR10-250 Tivo when the middle daughter left for college last week. No more Tivos on my account .


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Really? You didn't go through the fiasco of completely disappearing recordings and channels (!) on the HR10 when the guide data changed and the Tivo couldn't handle the changes?
> 
> Gee, there was meltdown on tivocommunity at that time. And emergency patches to the guide data as well as to the software.


Must have happened before Circuit City first started stocking HR10's, because I got one of the first lot shipped to the store closest to me at the time. I remember being bitter because I lived in the same town as Value Electronics, but I was late to pre-order, so very low in the queue.


----------



## E91

tonyd79 said:


> Nope. Here is the Tivo dual buffer dance:
> 
> Set Tuner A to channel 206.
> 
> Set Tuner B to channel 207.
> 
> Be on Tuner B. Down channel button. Changes channel to Channel 206. Down button again. Go to next channel down (205? 203? whatever). Channel 206 buffer is lost. Even though I "thought" I was on Tuner B. Tuner A took over when I went to channel 206.
> 
> On HR. This does not happen. When both buffers are on 206. Both buffers are live on 206. You do not lose a buffer you do not expect.
> 
> A*s for always on. I really don't care. I don't watch that much live TV (that is why I have a DVR) and I don't care about the one or two times a month I would fall into the category you just described. Not that I prefer the non-fulltime buffers. Just that I don't care. I use buffers very specifically only.*


Yes, but everybody has different needs. For me, the circumstance I described was the exact conditions under which I was most likely to want a buffer.

HOnestly though, the real reason I miss TIVO so much is that the search capacities and the wishlists were so nice for finding what you wanted to watch. D*'s "smart search" is a big improvement over what my DISH VIP offered, but still not close to TIVO's level.


----------



## mccoady

ffemtreed said:


> My list:
> 
> #1 List style guide
> #2 More than 50 season passes
> #3 Wishlists
> #4 full time double buffers
> #5 A box that actually responds to the remote channel numbers
> #6 auto recording suggestions when there is free drive space available


I'm a die hard Tivo fan and I agree with all of the above (Season Passes should at least be 75) and could add more but after using a HR24 for 3 months now I'm not sure I'm still interested in the new Tivo.

There are two things about the HR24 though I find very irritating and hope D* will change in the future:

1. I really like the List Guide of the Tivo but the HR24 does have a suitable compromise if they would just take it further. I like to scroll through upcoming programs for a given channel (up to two weeks) by selecting Info which displays 5 lines of programming but this needs to be 8 lines like the Tivo. Scrolling take forever with only 5 lines!

2. When you leave the Playlist and then return it should default back to whatever program you were watching like the Tivo.


----------



## Brennok

TiVo community post



Gunnyman said:


> Here's an interesting datapoint.
> I was invited today to participate in a Beta Test for the New Directivo. Sadly I can't participate as I no longer have Directv. But at least we know the hardware exists!


----------



## Steve

Brennok said:


> TiVo community post


Nice find!


----------



## tonyd79

"Brennok" said:


> TiVo community post


Hmm. I sure hope he never plans to help TiVo test anything since he blabbed what would be confidential if truly from TiVo.


----------



## Brennok

I thought that, but if you get invited and don't accept are you still under NDA?


----------



## bicker1

Many people won't agree to sign an NDA without telling them what they're signing it for. While I suppose they could be cagy ("a new piece of electronics") I suspect that they do have to reveal at least that much ("TiVo for DirecTV") to get a normalized-enough sample of people to be willing to sign the NDA, and for those who decline, they're not under any obligation to not reveal what they were offered. YMMV.


----------



## Brennok

It may be part of the agreement though that he would have agreed to when signing up to be in the beta pool for TiVo in general. Since you don't apply for specific beta tests with TiVo, I would imagine there is a general NDA saying not to disclose any tests they offer you the opportunity to join.

http://www.tivo.com/beta

I am already signed up or I would check. I don't think you even have to own a TiVo to signup but I may be wrong since I signed up years ago.


----------



## Steve

So if the beta is finally underway, a 2011 CES "unveiling" and spring shipments is not a stretch.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Steve said:


> What history? The 2010 TiVo _Premiere_ is their first departure from the classic TiVO UI found on every other TiVO dating back to 1999. Or put another way, no other TiVO released in the past few years _except_ the _Premiere _was released as a "work in progress".
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I think *Doug* is right and the new box will simply be an MPEG-4 HR10. *In that case the existing, DirecTiVO UI is already a proven commodity*, so that work is done. Whats probably taking time right now is the MPEG-4 and under the hood tweaking on the new hardware.
> 
> See above.


I think there is much more going on here. Politics, in my opinion, is behind the delay. I question whether or not there has EVER been any intention to see this product through.


----------



## Brennok

Looks like the beta might be code named Coyote. Didn't the box on that data sheet have TC in the name?

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=8146655#post8146655



Syzygy said:


> It's OK to say there's a beta test, and it's OK to say you are *not *a beta tester. It's only after you acknowledge the NDA that you have to stop talking about it.
> 
> I registered too, long ago. No word on being chosen or not.
> 
> I did get an email from TiVo about a Coyote beta test - just yesterday. What's a TiVo Coyote?


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> So if the beta is finally underway, a 2011 CES "unveiling" and spring shipments is not a stretch.


----------



## Doug Brott

jaywdetroit said:


> I think there is much more going on here. Politics, in my opinion, is behind the delay. I question whether or not there has EVER been any intention to see this product through.


I suspect Occam's razor is more in play on this one ...


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect Occam's razor is more in play on this one ...


I think Hanlon's Razor may be more appropriately used here.


----------



## Sixto

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-09/new-directv-tivo-beta-underway/

"Thank you for your interest in TiVo's beta programs. We'd like to invite you to join the Field Trials Team in beta testing hardware provided to you by TiVo. To participate you should be:

Available to test between now and January, 2011.
Willing to endure potential bugs, even with existing functionality - and report them in a timely manner.
Willing to complete weekly homework assignments.
Willing to share your experiences with others in our beta forums."


----------



## Doug Brott

Thanks for the note .. I know of a few other folks that got the same invitation/rejection. (no, I won't share who) Good to hear that they have finally started to ramp this thing up. It's been a long time in coming.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Interesting to see the device image looks like an HR24 with a peanut remote.


----------



## redhot

I think I am seeing the light............at..........the..........end.....of.......the.........tunnel.


----------



## Sixto

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-09/the-new-directv-tivo-delayed-into-2011/

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369664,00.asp

"It's official&#8230; The new DirecTV TiVo, announced in 2008, won't be available until 2011."

But when asked about the status of the agreement, Miller said that the DirecTiVo would ship "early next year".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-09/the-new-directv-tivo-delayed-into-2011/
> 
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369664,00.asp
> 
> "It's official&#8230; The new DirecTV TiVo, announced in 2008, won't be available until 2011."
> 
> But when asked about the status of the agreement, Miller said that the DirecTiVo would ship "early next year".


Looks like I'm going to have to hunt down the Tivo booth again at CES in January to see if we can get any "sneak peek"...


----------



## Hoosier205

It sure is taking TiVo a long time to bring something to market...which may not even be very innovative at this point.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

redhot said:


> I think I am seeing the light............at..........the..........end.....of.......the.........tunnel.


A Train?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> A Train?


...or trainwreck...?


----------



## smiddy

Humm, the 4th Quarter fast approaches and we have no official word, interesting!


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Humm, the 4th Quarter fast approaches and we have no official word, interesting!


"early next year" from the senior vice president of consumer sales and marketing seems fairly official. 

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369664,00.asp​
along with a beta that runs through January ...


----------



## Skyboss

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting to see the device image looks like an HR24 with a peanut remote.


In the article he says its his own artistic rendering.... 

Saddly, I don't think it will be the 24 series platform... :nono2:



Hoosier205 said:


> It sure is taking TiVo a long time to bring something to market...which may not even be very innovative at this point.


Rather content here with my 3x HR24 set up. Only thing missing is the ability to collectively manage series from anywhere in the system. At this point, that would be the killer app.... Kind of a pain going from room to room to set up series.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> "early next year" from the senior vice president of consumer sales and marketing seems fairly official.
> 
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369664,00.asp​
> *along with a beta that runs through January *...


...Hmmm.....CES is in January.....


----------



## redhot

Any one get notified for beta testing?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Skyboss said:


> In the article he says its his own artistic rendering....
> 
> Saddly, I don't think it will be the 24 series platform... :nono2:


That was kinda my point....it looked like a homemade Photoshop job...


redhot said:


> Any one get notified for beta testing?


Not me...but I suspect that if anyone did...they are not allowed to talk about it in public, like almost any other beta program.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Yet another delay! :nono:

...or is this the first...or not really a dealy at all... 

Anyway you look at it, it pretty much sucks. 

Mike


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> "early next year" from the senior vice president of consumer sales and marketing seems fairly official.
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369664,00.asp​along with a beta that runs through January ...


:lol: Yep...imagine that...


----------



## smiddy

MicroBeta said:


> Yet another delay! :nono:
> 
> ...or is this the first...or not really a dealy at all...
> 
> Anyway you look at it, it pretty much sucks.
> 
> Mike


Oh, at CES 2010 we were told Summer of 2010, "for sure" but alas we're in the Fall now and an "official" announcement that indicates next year. Woohoo!


----------



## MoInSTL

redhot said:


> Any one get notified for beta testing?


I did. Trying to decide if I want to participate.


----------



## litzdog911

MoInSTL said:


> I did. Trying to decide if I want to participate.


Why would you NOT want to participate?


----------



## smiddy

litzdog911 said:


> Why would you NOT want to participate?


Humm, excellent question! :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Oh, at CES 2010 we were told Summer of 2010, "for sure" but alas we're in the Fall now and an "official" announcement that indicates next year. Woohoo!


Then again...there's always this coming January's CES....


----------



## aziz

I hope the fate of Directivo will not be the same as the* HDPC-20*.


----------



## Rich

aziz said:


> I hope the fate of Directivo will not be the same as the* HDPC-20*.


Judging from what I just read in a newsletter that I subscribe to, you won't see the TiVo until next year, if at all.

Rich


----------



## wingrider01

aziz said:


> I hope the fate of Directivo will not be the same as the* HDPC-20*.


would by far rather have the HDPC-20 project brought back online then the tivo project. More flexiblity with the HDPC-20


----------



## dbsdave

I'd say there is a much better chance at this point the tivo will come out unlike the hdcp, just a matter of when.


----------



## Doug Brott

The HDPC-20 will not see the light of day .. The new TiVo will ..


----------



## Hoosier205

Here is my theory for the delay(s):

DirecTV is going to be updating/upgrading/overhauling their GUI. They mentioned as much during a call. (possibly in August, but I cannot remember) This could happen anytime between now and during the next year. Perhaps TiVo was waiting to get a taste of that to develop their software alongside it prior to customer beta testing.


----------



## Drucifer

Any word on the big multi-tuner? I've forgotten it designation.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drucifer said:


> Any word on the big multi-tuner? I've forgotten it designation.


If you're referring to the HMC30 unit that was viewed by some of us at the January Consumer Electronics Show...there's a thread on that.

Nothing appears to have changed - it was targeted for a late 2010 or early 2011 release.

It's pretty public now that the HD Tivobox is slated for 1Q 2011 at the soonest now.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then again...there's always this coming January's CES....


Yeah, I bet they won't show up this time.  Ok, sorry, I'm being cynical now.


----------



## smiddy

Man, here it is the last few days of this quarter, I say since we now know when, we close this thread...to never open another one until we get spec details.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yeah, I bet they won't show up this time.  Ok, sorry, I'm being cynical now.


I like the chances better than last year.... :lol:


----------



## Drucifer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If you're referring to the *HMC30* unit that was viewed by some of us at the January Consumer Electronics Show...there's a thread on that.
> 
> Nothing appears to have changed - it was targeted for a late 2010 or early 2011 release.
> 
> It's pretty public now that the HD Tivobox is slated for 1Q 2011 at the soonest now.


Yeah, HMC30. That's it. Thank you.

I will now search forum and google.


----------



## Reaper

I just tried a TiVo Premiere with FiOS TV. My guess for the cause of the DirecTivo delay is that the TiVo HD interface isn't complete. Only a few screens have been updated, drilling down two or three menus takes you to the decades old stretched SD interface. It's not quite like putting lipstick on a pig, it's more like only putting lipstick on the upper lip of a pig.

Waiting's better, trust me.


----------



## Doug Brott

The new DIRECTV TiVo will have pretty much the same ol' interface that the older DIRECTV TiVo had (best I can tell).


----------



## Hoosier205

Doug Brott said:


> The new DIRECTV TiVo will have pretty much the same ol' interface that the older DIRECTV TiVo had (best I can tell).


Well, the DirecTV interface is going to change to some degree in the near future (0-18 months probably). I would hope that TiVo would build on that. The prior DirecTV/TiVo receiver was released in what...2004?


----------



## pfp

Doug Brott said:


> The new DIRECTV TiVo will have pretty much the same ol' interface that the older DIRECTV TiVo had (best I can tell).


that's just sad.


----------



## bonscott87

pfp said:


> that's just sad.


It's what the Tivo CEO stated in an interview a few months back. He said the new DirecTivo would have the "classic" Tivo interface and not the new Premier GUI. Certainly things could have changed in the past couple months since that interview but I highly doubt it this late in the game.


----------



## bonscott87

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, the DirecTV interface is going to change to some degree in the near future (0-18 months probably). I would hope that TiVo would build on that. The prior DirecTV/TiVo receiver was released in what...2004?


What DirecTV does would have no effect. Tivo CEO sated it would be the "classic" Tivo UI, the one that really hasn't changed much for almost 10 years.


----------



## Hoosier205

bonscott87 said:


> What DirecTV does would have no effect. Tivo CEO sated it would be the "classic" Tivo UI, the one that really hasn't changed much for almost 10 years.


Well, it would certainly have to incorporate various DirecTV services and features. Either way, I don't see much of a point now. TiVo is just treading water now.


----------



## tonyd79

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, it would certainly have to incorporate various DirecTV services and features. Either way, I don't see much of a point now. TiVo is just treading water now.


That will make what it is overall interesting because Tivo did not mimic their old GUI when they added features like Netflix streaming and Amazon and Bollywood and other stuff a couple years before the Premiere came out. (One of my complaints was how balky the newer stuff was when I had my HD Tivo.) Will they basically copy the DirecTV On Demand stuff or make their own unlike the classic Tivo GUI or something completely else.


----------



## adam1115

litzdog911 said:


> Why would you NOT want to participate?


I was a TiVo beta tester, it was quite a bit of work, and required a pretty substantial time commitment...


----------



## smiddy

adam1115 said:


> I was a TiVo beta tester, it was quite a bit of work, and required a pretty substantial time commitment...


Did they have you punch in on a time clock or something?


----------



## Brennok

smiddy said:


> Did they have you punch in on a time clock or something?


If it is like any other beta testing, they usually give you time sensitive tasks and reporting you have to do sometimes as often as daily or hourly. Many people think they will only have to use the various devices like normal, and not realize how much work testing can be. I know in some betas I have had to do daily tests and logs followed with followup surveys and tests sometimes set for specific times. Obviously most places know you can't make them all, but some are stricter than others on how much you can miss or not participate.

Some people also just hate filing bug reports since you have to be detail oriented. I have been in some betas that were absolutely a huge pain and almost made me swear off the process.


----------



## Doug Brott

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, it would certainly have to incorporate various DirecTV services and features.


Why?


----------



## am7crew

Hoosier205 said:


> Well, it would certainly have to incorporate various DirecTV services and features. Either way, I don't see much of a point now. TiVo is just treading water now.


yeah plus the menu's might be "HD Lite" and we ALL know how you feel about that


----------



## Mike Bertelson

am7crew said:


> yeah plus the menu's might be "HD Lite" and we ALL know how you feel about that


I though we already established it was gonna be the "TiVo classic" GUI? :scratchin

Mike


----------



## smiddy

Brennok said:


> If it is like any other beta testing, they usually give you time sensitive tasks and reporting you have to do sometimes as often as daily or hourly. Many people think they will only have to use the various devices like normal, and not realize how much work testing can be. I know in some betas I have had to do daily tests and logs followed with followup surveys and tests sometimes set for specific times. Obviously most places know you can't make them all, but some are stricter than others on how much you can miss or not participate.
> 
> Some people also just hate filing bug reports since you have to be detail oriented. I have been in some betas that were absolutely a huge pain and almost made me swear off the process.




I was asking him.

There is a huge difference between a closed and open betas too and then there are field trials. Though their structures can be very different or nearly the same, thus why I was asking him to elaborate.


----------



## Hoosier205

Doug Brott said:


> Why?


Cinema, score guide, apps, etc. DirecTV is going to want these features, which they see as selling points, to be accessible. Is TiVo going to design their own IU to display these features and services? It seems as if it would be far easier to simply incorporate TiVo features into DirecTV software than to create something independently. Why reinvent the wheel? This just seems like an idiotic waste of time and energy on their part. If you're going to make something better, make it better. TiVo should have either based this software on their most recent versions or waited and custom tailored upcoming new UI (next year possibly?). I just don't see a reasonable chance for success.


----------



## Hoosier205

am7crew said:


> yeah plus the menu's might be "HD Lite" and we ALL know how you feel about that


Nope. You're thinking of the other provider.


----------



## CuriousMark

Hoosier205 said:


> Cinema, score guide, apps, etc. DirecTV is going to want these features, which they see as selling points, to be accessible. Is TiVo going to design their own IU to display these features and services?


TiVo has already added the colored buttons to all their new remotes, so it looks like they plan on supporting these features one way or the other.

I suspect they will add screens or video overlays to do this. For the most part it should be pretty straightforward for them. I doubt they could easily use DTV code for this as is, the underlying architecture is different.


----------



## tonyd79

Hoosier205 said:


> Why reinvent the wheel? This just seems like an idiotic waste of time and energy on their part.


This makes me wonder what the return on investment is. And if they are dumbing it down (older GUI) more because the investment is less than trying to make something new and better and not expecting the actual product to make a difference in how many sell. For example, if they sell only to the Tivo fans, does it matter if the GUI and functions are super cool and new or not? Probably not, at least at first.

But back to the ROI. I don't really understand why they are doing this at all except to have the brand of DirecTV in their stable. I just don't see enough sales to justify the effort.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> [...] But back to the ROI. I don't really understand why they are doing this at all except to have the brand of DirecTV in their stable. I just don't see enough sales to justify the effort.


It's probably a "no lose" for TiVO, because DirecTV is funding the development.

And a "no lose" for DirecTV, because it allows them to retain subscribers who just "have" to have TiVO.


----------



## wingrider01

Doug Brott said:


> The HDPC-20 will not see the light of day .. The new TiVo will ..


I know, unfortunate the HDPC-20 would a lot more useful


----------



## Doug Brott

Hoosier205 said:


> Cinema, score guide, apps, etc. DirecTV is going to want these features, which they see as selling points, to be accessible. Is TiVo going to design their own IU to display these features and services? It seems as if it would be far easier to simply incorporate TiVo features into DirecTV software than to create something independently. Why reinvent the wheel? This just seems like an idiotic waste of time and energy on their part. If you're going to make something better, make it better. TiVo should have either based this software on their most recent versions or waited and custom tailored upcoming new UI (next year possibly?). I just don't see a reasonable chance for success.


TiVo won't be incorporating their features into DIRECTV's software .. It's an entirely different piece of software. I thought that part was clear all along. :scratchin

As for reinventing wheels .. TiVo already has their own code. DIRECTV reinvented the wheel a few years back when TiVo & DIRECTV where having trouble coming to terms. At this point, I'd say DIRECTV came out ahead, but it was debatable way back when.


----------



## Hoosier205

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo won't be incorporating their features into DIRECTV's software .. It's an entirely different piece of software. I thought that part was clear all along. :scratchin
> 
> As for reinventing wheels .. TiVo already has their own code. DIRECTV reinvented the wheel a few years back when TiVo & DIRECTV where having trouble coming to terms. At this point, I'd say DIRECTV came out ahead, but it was debatable way back when.


So, the TiVo unit will be bare-bones? Probably no sports guide, no apps, no MRV, and I doubt they'd include 3D either. I'm not attacking you over this. Thank you for the information. I guess I just don't see the point of this product now.


----------



## CuriousMark

Hoosier205 said:


> So, the TiVo unit will be bare-bones? Probably no sports guide, no apps, no MRV, and I doubt they'd include 3D either. I'm not attacking you over this. Thank you for the information. I guess I just don't see the point of this product now.


Huh, I don't think that is what is being said at all.

I believe The TiVo software will support sports guides, weather overlays and such, the remotes have the buttons now as I said above. (I don't know what apps are, so I cannot comment on that) TiVo joined MoCA so MRV sounds like a distinct possibility. The hardware can support 3D, the Premiere standalone TiVo supports 3D on Comcast, so they know how to do it. I don't see why this box would omit that.

It is the extra effort to crank all this extra stuff in that might explain some of the massive delay.

Will everything be in and working on day 1? Knowing the way TiVo is rolling out the Premiere, I would guess not, but I bet a fair amount of stuff you expect to find will be there.

If it were just an HR10-250 with MPEG-4, that would be non-starter.


----------



## Hoosier205

CuriousMark said:


> Huh, I don't think that is what is being said at all.
> 
> I believe The TiVo software will support sports guides, weather overlays and such, the remotes have the buttons now as I said above. (I don't know what apps are, so I cannot comment on that) TiVo joined MoCA so MRV sounds like a distinct possibility. The hardware can support 3D, the Premiere standalone TiVo supports 3D on Comcast, so they know how to do it. I don't see why this box would omit that.


All of those things are dependent upon software though. sports guide, apps, MRV, 3D...these all took substantial software development on the part of DirecTV. If TiVo isn't going to incorporate their features into DirecTV software, but are instead creating their own independent version...I expect to see multiple DirecTV features missing. What TiVo features will we get in return, that the current DirecTV receivers do not already have their own version of?


----------



## CuriousMark

Hoosier205 said:


> All of those things are dependent upon software though. sports guide, apps, MRV, 3D...these all took substantial software development on the part of DirecTV. If TiVo isn't going to incorporate their features into DirecTV software, but are instead creating their own independent version...I expect to see multiple DirecTV features missing. What TiVo features will we get in return, that the current DirecTV receivers do not already have their own version of?


Your guess about that is as good as mine. On entry I also expect some of those to be missing or incomplete.

What will be added, based on what I have read here, are TiVo Kidzone parental controls (separate kids and adult now playing lists with password protections), TiVo Search with access to the direcTV VOD and PPV libraries to make it easy to find, schedule or watch a PPV or VOD offering. Suggestions, no limit on season passes, and always on dual live buffers.

Features many have wished for, but that most doubt will occur are over the top services such as YouTube, HULU, NetFlix, Blockbuster, Amazon and such.

I would hope that the TiVo Search feature would work with a keyboard, as it does on the standalone HD units, that let you enter a query quickly using a USB keyboard, or the TiVo Slide (Bluetooth) Keyboard remote.

Crestron support, though I suspect the HR series already also has that.


----------



## Hoosier205

CuriousMark said:


> Features many have wished for, but that most doubt will occur are over the top services such as YouTube, HULU, NetFlix, Blockbuster, Amazon and such.


I have my doubts that those services will be available, as it may require that DirecTV has agreements for them as well...and not just TiVo.



CuriousMark said:


> or the TiVo Slide (Bluetooth) Keyboard remote.


Doubtful since hardware changes for the receiver would be necessary for the remote to communicate with it and TiVo is only working on the software side.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> It's probably a "no lose" for TiVO, because DirecTV is funding the development.
> 
> And a "no lose" for DirecTV, because it allows them to retain subscribers who just "have" to have TiVO.


The Tivo side is not that simple. There are still costs even though you are getting funding. Management and project impacts.

What customers who just "have" to have Tivo? They would be long gone by now and aren't coming back just for a Tivo box.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> The Tivo side is not that simple. There are still costs even though you are getting funding. Management and project impacts.


Project managers are not hard to find, especially in this economy. I'm sure any impact to TiVo related to this project is more than made up for by the exorbitant (my .02) development fees that DirecTV is paying them. 


> That customers who just "have" to have Tivo? They would be long gone by now and aren't coming back just for a Tivo box.


Unless at the time they inked the deal, DirecTV didn't think it would take TiVo this long to get a box out. No matter what, any potential new customers who think cable is the only way to get a TiVO now have another option.


----------



## CuriousMark

Hoosier205 said:


> Doubtful since hardware changes for the receiver would be necessary for the remote to communicate with it and TiVo is only working on the software side.


The Blutooth receiver plugs into a spare USB port, no modifications required unless HR2X units don't have USB.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

CuriousMark said:


> The Blutooth receiver plugs into a spare USB port, no modifications required unless HR2X units don't have USB.


talking about that the will the tivo work with the usb AM-21?

serial-USB?


----------



## tonyd79

"Steve" said:


> Project managers are not hard to find, especially in this economy. I'm sure any impact to TiVo related to this project is more than made up for by the exorbitant (my .02) development fees that DirecTV is paying them.


I didn't mean in terms of project managers. I meant just managing resources and planning code configurations and things. An extra project can be disruptive. Especially for a company that has not shown the best project management in the past.



"Steve" said:


> Unless at the time they inked the deal, DirecTV didn't think it would take TiVo this long to get a box out. No matter what, any potential new customers who think cable is the only way to get a TiVO now have another option.


The first is a good point. On the second, don't let this community fool you. The extremely vast majority don't care about TiVo or think they have one when they get any DVR. Even here there are only a handful of folks who are hankering for TiVo.

TiVo barely makes a dent in cable sales and the cable DVRs are horrific.


----------



## CuriousMark

JoeTheDragon said:


> talking about that the will the tivo work with the usb AM-21?
> 
> serial-USB?


Your guess is as good as mine. It is certainly possible, but I kind of suspect that OTA may not be a really high priority. As for serial, I can't guess what you are have in mind.


----------



## Doug Brott

I've gotta believe that one of the biggest things making this take SO long have to do with securing the kernel. Seems the TiVo kernel is a bit more porous than DIRECTV would appreciate. That alone may have taken substantial rework.


----------



## Brennok

Also iirc, which may be part of the problem for TiVo, is if they are implementing some of these features because of the way the old UI was written. I can't find the link, but I thought TiVo said one of the reasons they did the HDUI the way they did was the old code would have required a rewrite just to add simple things like a free space indicator. If DirecTV is having them implement some of these interactive features while also using hardware that doesn't have a built in dedicated flash chip which would have allowed them to use the new UI, they are stuck trying to modify the old code which is what they are now trying to get away from with the Premiere.

It may have been the chat Molly had with Tom on Cnet around the launch or just before the launch of the Premiere.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> I've gotta believe that one of the biggest things making this take SO long have to do with securing the kernel. Seems the TiVo kernel is a bit more porous than DIRECTV would appreciate. That alone may have taken substantial rework.


Yep, agree, as we've discussed before, there may be alot of stuff that they needed to clean-up including interactive. And if they're trying to play in the MRV world that can take a long time.


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## JoeTheDragon

CuriousMark said:


> Your guess is as good as mine. It is certainly possible, but I kind of suspect that OTA may not be a really high priority. As for serial, I can't guess what you are have in mind.


just listed what the D* boxes can do.

But the big things have to be D* VOD and PPV movies, sports and events. Download and push VOD.

MIX CHANNELS.

D* MRV.

gamefinder

score guide / I thing tv apps may be as big as score guide.


----------



## ejjames

I have been waiting for the new tivo, but when I actually had to use it to schedule shows for my visiting dad, I was annoyed. The huge fisher-price fonts seemed clunky, and the sound effects...I guess I'm not so sure anymore.


----------



## bonscott87

Steve said:


> No matter what, any potential new customers who think cable is the only way to get a TiVO now have another option.


It was mentioned earlier but the problem is that the 30+ million DVR users out there already think they have a Tivo. DVR + Tivo and they don't know any different. So no, you aren't going to have people leaving cable to DirecTV just for Tivo. Not going to happen because they already think they have Tivo.


----------



## E91

bonscott87 said:


> It was mentioned earlier but the problem is that the 30+ million DVR users out there already think they have a Tivo. DVR + Tivo and they don't know any different. So no, you aren't going to have people leaving cable to DirecTV just for Tivo. Not going to happen because they already think they have Tivo.


I don't think the majority of people who do this. But, I know my sister couldn't stand to give up here TIVO when D* when to the NDR system. So, she bought a few high def TIVOs, and then got cable cards. I bet she'd consider coming back to D* tomorrow if a new TIVO box was available.

Personally, I jumped ship to Dish because I heard terrible things about the D* DVRs (which, as it turned out, where completely wrong - I really enjoy the system) and would have gone to cable in a minute if my local provider had a decent DVR. When I canceled D* a few years back, I told the nice CSR that I would return the day they made a TIVO MPEG4 DVR available - and I meant it. If DISH's lousy sports coverage wasn't so disappointing, I'd still be with them now.

Now, my sister and I both tend toward the DBSTALK end of things (that is, we know a bit more about this stuff than the average consumer) but even Joe and Jane Public can feel this way. I have another friend who had a DirecTIVO box, but switched to Dish when she bought a new house and got an HD LCD. She freakin' hates the DISH VIP722, swears that she'll toss it as soon as her contract up, and would definitely opt for D* over cable if a TIVO OS DVR was available.

I'm not saying that the majority of users will care - but some will.

What is really going to keep people from jumping ship, at least in the DBS world, is that both DISH and D* are getting the DVR OS right. I'm really liking my HR24. I still miss TIVO, but the HR24 is pretty nice too. I also liked DISH's VIP series. Lots of nice options out there now, even when compared to TIVO.


----------



## bobcamp1

E91 said:


> What is really going to keep people from jumping ship, at least in the DBS world, is that both DISH and D* are getting the DVR OS right. I'm really liking my HR24. I still miss TIVO, but the HR24 is pretty nice too. I also liked DISH's VIP series. Lots of nice options out there now, even when compared to TIVO.


If you think D* got the OS right, you have really low standards.

I'd like a DVR that records all the shows you tell it to, and doesn't have any playback or recording issues. I'd also like a DVR that responds within the same year I press a button on the remote. An accurate to-do list is a huge plus. Last year, the HRs were so bad I switched back to Tivo.

(Here come the "I don't have any issues" responses. I don't care. There are way too many people who still have problems with the HRs doing the basics. Just look at the issues threads.)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobcamp1 said:


> If you think D* got the OS right, you have really low standards.
> 
> I'd like a DVR that records all the shows you tell it to, and doesn't have any playback or recording issues. I'd also like a DVR that responds within the same year I press a button on the remote. An accurate to-do list is a huge plus. Last year, the HRs were so bad I switched back to Tivo.
> 
> (Here come the "I don't have any issues" responses. I don't care. There are way too many people who still have problems with the HRs doing the basics. Just look at the issues threads.)


Then again....the folks who report and significant problems pale in comparison with the millions who don't. 

Don't expect any different experience with any new Tivo-based unit.


----------



## bonscott87

E91 said:


> I don't think the majority of people who do this. But, I know my sister couldn't stand to give up here TIVO when D* when to the NDR system. So, she bought a few high def TIVOs, and then got cable cards. I bet she'd consider coming back to D* tomorrow if a new TIVO box was available.


But you and your sister aren't a part of the 30+ million "unwashed masses". She (and you) are one of the few that actually know what a real Tivo is and had one. Not many people have. It's those other tens of millions that have never even seen a Tivo yet think they have one are what I'm talking about. And DirecTV having a new Tivo based unit is meaningless to them.

I have dozens of friends that have a DVR. Not a single one of them has a Tivo but all but a couple think they have a Tivo. And these are "techy" type people no less. The only ones that know they don't have a Tivo are the ones that had DirecTV back in the day and had a DirecTivo. Of those they all complained about the HR2x when it first came out. Reason? No dual tuner switching. As soon as the HR2x got the dual buffers they were happy as punch. They cared nothing else about Tivo itself outside of that. I find that pretty typical in people I talk to. Those that did have Tivo don't really care one way or another on the DVR UI, they just want something that records and plays back, a digital VCR and that's it. Those into sports want the dual buffers. Yea my sample is maybe 30-40 people but that's is the overall trend with them.

But from what I read across various forums this is pretty typical. And also explains why Tivo continues to lose subs every single quarter. It's because most people don't put any value on the things Tivo puts forward as why they are different and worth $13 a month. The general public and even DVR "vets" don't care either. The "digital VCR" is pretty much what most people look for. Everything else is just gravy and doesn't make a sale. Thus why Tivo continues to decline. If it were any different then people would have purchased Tivo by the millions vs. the crappy cable DVRs over the years but that was never the case. And now even the crappy cable DVRs are capable enough as digital VCRs and they have on demand. Guess what...since that's all most people care about that means the cable DVR is good enough and thus people see no reason to buy a Tivo. Same thing with DirecTV and even Dish. Having Tivo isn't going to gain a lot of subs for DirecTV either way.


----------



## tonyd79

bonscott87 said:


> If it were any different then people would have purchased Tivo by the millions vs. the crappy cable DVRs over the years but that was never the case.


Bingo! If the vast majority cared, then Tivo would have had so many subs they wouldn't care about DirecTV at all. I always return to this. Comcast (and Fios to a lesser extent) have some of the crappiest DVRs out there yet practically no one has a Tivo. People (including myself when I got the Fios DVR), use the company DVR because it "works well enough" and costs less.

Plus it gives other functionality. No matter how they try, the Tivo add-ons for Netflix, etc., do not replace cable On Demand and I get all those with a one-time purchase Roku box instead of a recurring cost Tivo box.

So, Tivo means I spend more money per month and get fewer services. Not a good enough deal just so I can have things bloop at me. But don't tell me about the intuitive GUI either. Not only did the add ons for the older TiVo look nothing like the existing GUI, they are changing it completely, so I can't even bargain for well worn comfort.

Tivo actually drove me away as a customer because the box was getting slower, less consistent and was costing me extra while it removed me from services that I was already paying for (on demand).

Unless they can come up with something truly revolutionary (not just an ad campaign), I don't see how there business model works except for the most devoted folks.


----------



## Brennok

tonyd79 said:


> People (including myself when I got the Fios DVR), use the company DVR because it "works well enough" and costs less.
> 
> So, Tivo means I spend more money per month and get fewer services. Not a good enough deal just so I can have things bloop at me. But don't tell me about the intuitive GUI either. Not only did the add ons for the older TiVo look nothing like the existing GUI, they are changing it completely, so I can't even bargain for well worn comfort.


TiVo only costs more money in the short term. Over the long term you easily come out ahead.

At 3 years of the FiOS DVR at $15.99 you have paid $575.64. At 3 years of a TiVo Premiere with lifetime, if you are smart to shop around, costs $583.64 or $8 more over the 3 years. After that you save $144 a year using TiVo. This is assuming FiOS doesn't increase hardware prices. This amount only goes up as you increase the number of DVRs you have.

If you use the whole home unit at $19.99 a month you have paid $719.64 over 3 years compared to TiVo at $583.64.

If you opt for the TiVo HD for lifetime you paid $543.64 over 3 years vs $575.64 or $719.64.

At the same time at the end of those 3 years you can still sell the TiVo with Lifetime which you can't do with the cable dvr. Used TiVo HDs still go for $400.

Unfortunately though I agree with you about VOD, but that isn't something TiVo can really do anything about. I don't miss it though since I record more than I could ever watch.


----------



## E91

bobcamp1 said:


> If you think D* got the OS right, you have really low standards.
> 
> I'd like a DVR that records all the shows you tell it to, and doesn't have any playback or recording issues. I'd also like a DVR that responds within the same year I press a button on the remote. An accurate to-do list is a huge plus. Last year, the HRs were so bad I switched back to Tivo.
> 
> (Here come the "I don't have any issues" responses. I don't care. There are way too many people who still have problems with the HRs doing the basics. Just look at the issues threads.)


You're right. "I don't have those issues..."

I'm sorry you're having problems with the HRs. I'm sorry other people are too. But, I'm not. And, all I can talk about is my experience.

I've had zero playback and recording issues on the HR24 and on the VIP722.

I've had zero issues getting either to record.

And, my DVR is every bit as responsive as the TIVOs I've had over the years.

YMMV.

P.S. I am not denying or discounting your experience - just saying it is much different from mine. Could it be that D* has FINALLY ironed out all the problems?


----------



## Hoosier205

bobcamp1 said:


> If you think D* got the OS right, you have really low standards.
> 
> I'd like a DVR that records all the shows you tell it to, and doesn't have any playback or recording issues. I'd also like a DVR that responds within the same year I press a button on the remote. An accurate to-do list is a huge plus. Last year, the HRs were so bad I switched back to Tivo.
> 
> (Here come the "I don't have any issues" responses. I don't care. There are way too many people who still have problems with the HRs doing the basics. Just look at the issues threads.)


Sounds more like user error...only kidding. Seriously though, you cannot expect this forum to be a fair and accurate sample. The very reason that many people come here is just to report problems. Not to mention what an incredible minority we represent. Even if every single member here were a DirecTV customer (which isn't the case since many are non-DBS customers or are Dish customers), they would only account for about 0.45% of the total number of DirecTV customers. Even if you combine the total membership of this forum and "the other forum" (again imagining that every member on both sites is a DirecTV customer)...we're only talking about 1.3%. There are no widespread or dramatic issues with HRxx receivers.


----------



## E91

bonscott87 said:


> But you and your sister aren't a part of the 30+ million "unwashed masses". She (and you) are one of the few that actually know what a real Tivo is and had one. Not many people have. It's those other tens of millions that have never even seen a Tivo yet think they have one are what I'm talking about. And DirecTV having a new Tivo based unit is meaningless to them.
> 
> I have dozens of friends that have a DVR. Not a single one of them has a Tivo but all but a couple think they have a Tivo. And these are "techy" type people no less. The only ones that know they don't have a Tivo are the ones that had DirecTV back in the day and had a DirecTivo. Of those they all complained about the HR2x when it first came out. Reason? No dual tuner switching. As soon as the HR2x got the dual buffers they were happy as punch. They cared nothing else about Tivo itself outside of that. I find that pretty typical in people I talk to. Those that did have Tivo don't really care one way or another on the DVR UI, they just want something that records and plays back, a digital VCR and that's it. Those into sports want the dual buffers. Yea my sample is maybe 30-40 people but that's is the overall trend with them.
> 
> But from what I read across various forums this is pretty typical. And also explains why Tivo continues to lose subs every single quarter. It's because most people don't put any value on the things Tivo puts forward as why they are different and worth $13 a month. The general public and even DVR "vets" don't care either. The "digital VCR" is pretty much what most people look for. Everything else is just gravy and doesn't make a sale. Thus why Tivo continues to decline. If it were any different then people would have purchased Tivo by the millions vs. the crappy cable DVRs over the years but that was never the case. And now even the crappy cable DVRs are capable enough as digital VCRs and they have on demand. Guess what...since that's all most people care about that means the cable DVR is good enough and thus people see no reason to buy a Tivo. Same thing with DirecTV and even Dish. Having Tivo isn't going to gain a lot of subs for DirecTV either way.


I think TIVO continues to decline becaues of the realities of the situation. Most of major providers out there (E*, D*, Fios, cable) have their own internally developed systems. The only folk who can really use TIVO are those who are OTA only (who generally don't tend to own DVRs) and those who go through the hassle of cable cards. Its not surpising that TIVO isn't selling units - there isnt' anybody for them to sell to. I think the message of TIVO is that a stand-alone DVR just isn't all that viable.

I agree with you that many of the "masses" think of DVRs in a very generic sense. But, I also think that most people who would have used the TIVO OS will prefer it to other options. I really like the HR24, and have very much enjoyed coming back to D*. HOwever, all else being equal, I still would rather be with TIVO.

All that said, its a tribute to how far D*'s DVRs have come. I like my HR24s enough that I'm viewing this talk about a new TIVO unit on Directv with benign disinterest. I can really live with my current setup and I see no real reason to switch.


----------



## smiddy

Last shots today folks, this thread will be history soon, though next quarter's thread may be even more fun.


----------



## litzdog911

Oh goodie!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Last shots today folks, this thread will be history soon, though next quarter's thread may be even more fun.


...and they could likely skip the entire 4Q and start the next one 1Q 2011... :lol:


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and they could likely skip the entire 4Q and start the next one 1Q 2011... :lol:


I'll second that idea...


----------



## tonyd79

Brennok said:


> TiVo only costs more money in the short term. Over the long term you easily come out ahead.
> 
> At 3 years of the FiOS DVR at $15.99 you have paid $575.64. At 3 years of a TiVo Premiere with lifetime, if you are smart to shop around, costs $583.64 or $8 more over the 3 years. After that you save $144 a year using TiVo. This is assuming FiOS doesn't increase hardware prices. This amount only goes up as you increase the number of DVRs you have.


Three years is a long time in the world of DVRs. Also, did you include the cablecard price in your calculations? Not to mention that that large of a cost up front is a huge hit compared to the "savings" over a few months. There is the time cost of money involved here.



Brennok said:


> If you use the whole home unit at $19.99 a month you have paid $719.64 over 3 years compared to TiVo at $583.64.


Bad assumption. I have one Fios DVR not the whole home unit. How does a single Tivo compare to a whole home unit? They do not perform the same function.



Brennok said:


> If you opt for the TiVo HD for lifetime you paid $543.64 over 3 years vs $575.64 or $719.64.
> 
> At the same time at the end of those 3 years you can still sell the TiVo with Lifetime which you can't do with the cable dvr. Used TiVo HDs still go for $400


I recently transferred a Tivo unit to a friend. What a nightmare. First I had to convince Tivo that I didn't want to buy a net unit then they messed the billing up for two months. No thanks..



Brennok said:


> Unfortunately though I agree with you about VOD, but that isn't something TiVo can really do anything about. I don't miss it though since I record more than I could ever watch.


Maybe but you are paying for it. Besides, for movies it allows me to not have to tie up a tuner or schedule them. (I am talking prepaid or free movies. I do not do PPV.)


----------



## bobcamp1

Hoosier205 said:


> There are no widespread or dramatic issues with HRxx receivers.


Of course there are dramatic issues. I think missing recordings, inability to play back recordings, and receivers locking up are dramatic.

As far as widespread, no one knows. You can't claim that the only people who post here are people who have problems. There are many other people who have problems who don't post here. My neighbor is one. You can't derive numbers from the numbers of people who visit this forum. (I've had this same conversation on the Tivo forum.)

What you CAN do, however, is look to see what kinds of problems people are having. With Tivo, it's getting the Cablecards and tuning adapters to work, and getting the new HD interface in the Premiere to not crash (some people have simply disabled it). There aren't any issues regarding audio/video stuttering or dropouts. Or programs not recording. Or (except for HD menus) having to reset the box every three days. Or having sluggish remote response.

Tivo has always done the main functions very well. If the HD DirecTivo is that reliable, I'm sold. I am nervous though, because the Premiere clearly was released before it was ready.


----------



## bobcamp1

I just did the cost analysis of Verizon DVR vs. FIOS with Tivo vs. DirecTV. Because of my grandfathered status, D* came out way ahead in cost. The break even point for purchasing a Tivo vs. using the Verizon DVR was one month shy of 3 years. And that included ALL the costs, including a discounted Tivo Lifetime service which I am eligible for, Cablecards, etc.

The cost analysis makes two horrible assumptions. The first is ignoring the fact that Tivo only has a 90-day warranty. If the box breaks before the 3 years are up, I'll lose a lot of money. Also, it assumes no one will raise their monthly prices. 

I agree with every one else here. This same conversation is going on in the Tivo community forum. You simply can't make a stand-alone DVR that's competitive with a leased unit. Which is why the HD DirecTivo might be the best of both worlds.


----------



## CuriousMark

hey bobcamp1,

I just got whole home DVR setup installed yesterday. I decided not to wait another 5 or 6 months. I have an HR24 and an H24 now. I was familiarizing myself with the HR24 unit, setting series up to record and the thing locked up twice. In both cases it stopped playing back video, stopped responding to the remote and after about 5 minutes rebooted itself. Neither of my 2 Series 2 TiVos has ever done this. I called DTV and they are coming back out. I suspect I may have just gotten a lemon because from what the CSRs said, it should not have done this at all. This is just a data point and it is my first experience with a DirecTV DVR, but it leaves me a bit nervous.


----------



## Steve

CuriousMark said:


> hey bobcamp1,
> 
> I just got whole home DVR setup installed yesterday. I decided not to wait another 5 or 6 months. I have an HR24 and an H24 now. I was familiarizing myself with the HR24 unit, setting series up to record and the thing locked up twice. In both cases it stopped playing back video, stopped responding to the remote and after about 5 minutes rebooted itself. Neither of my 2 Series 2 TiVos has ever done this. I called DTV and they are coming back out. I suspect I may have just gotten a lemon because from what the CSRs said, it should not have done this at all. This is just a data point and it is my first experience with a DirecTV DVR, but it leaves me a bit nervous.


Mark, one other data point if they are coming out again. Not sure if you ever run into recording conflicts, but if you replace the H24 with another HR24, you'll have 4 tuners available for simultaneous recording (and 200 hours total HD storage), for the same monthly charge you're now paying. You'll probably need to lay out another $99 up front, however.


----------



## bonscott87

Brennok said:


> TiVo only costs more money in the short term. Over the long term you easily come out ahead.
> 
> At 3 years of the FiOS DVR at $15.99 you have paid $575.64. At 3 years of a TiVo Premiere with lifetime, if you are smart to shop around, costs $583.64 or $8 more over the 3 years. After that you save $144 a year using TiVo. This is assuming FiOS doesn't increase hardware prices. This amount only goes up as you increase the number of DVRs you have.
> 
> If you use the whole home unit at $19.99 a month you have paid $719.64 over 3 years compared to TiVo at $583.64.
> 
> If you opt for the TiVo HD for lifetime you paid $543.64 over 3 years vs $575.64 or $719.64.
> 
> At the same time at the end of those 3 years you can still sell the TiVo with Lifetime which you can't do with the cable dvr. Used TiVo HDs still go for $400.


It's a fair comparison but as someone else mentioned, it doesn't take into account how fast the market technology changes. How quickly have we gone from cable cards to SDV and now the FCC is looking for something else to replace cable cards. Could be IP based like Uverse. So 3-4 years from now the Tivo may not even be able to tune to your cable signal. I would not want to put that much money into owning something that may (and has a good possibility) of being obsolete in 5 years if not sooner. Things are changing way too much to be locked into certain technology.


----------



## rayik

Just discovered the HR23-700 has a feature that I actually missed from my old DirecTivo.

On the Tivo, I used the List guide where you could highlight one channel and it would have a vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel alone (and you could scroll through it). This was very helpful on premium channels such as HBO. Could look through 2 weeks of shows really quickly, selecting some to record.

Discovered yesterday the HR23-700 can do the same thing. In guide, go left until you highlight the channel number. Then hit info. It pops up the same vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel that the Tivo did. It's scrollable like the Tivo list.

Unfortunately for this Tivo lover, there is now one less reason to want a D* Tivo.


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## Hoosier205

rayik said:


> Just discovered the HR23-700 has a feature that I actually missed from my old DirecTivo.
> 
> On the Tivo, I used the List guide where you could highlight one channel and it would have a vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel alone (and you could scroll through it). This was very helpful on premium channels such as HBO. Could look through 2 weeks of shows really quickly, selecting some to record.
> 
> Discovered yesterday the HR23-700 can do the same thing. In guide, go left until you highlight the channel number. Then hit info. It pops up the same vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel that the Tivo did. It's scrollable like the Tivo list.
> 
> Unfortunately for this Tivo lover, there is now one less reason to want a D* Tivo.


I use that feature a lot with HDNet Movies.


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## Steve

rayik said:


> [...] On the Tivo, I used the List guide where you could highlight one channel and it would have a vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel alone (and you could scroll through it). This was very helpful on premium channels such as HBO. Could look through 2 weeks of shows really quickly, selecting some to record [...]


The one HR10 feature I still miss after 3 years. Sigh.

Everyone's dying for an HD guide for the HR2x's. I'd settle for a return of the "TiVO-style" guide. 










Larger image here.


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## RAD

While not exactly the same remember you can get something similar when you cursor left to the channel number and then hit info.


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## rayik

Steve said:


> The one HR10 feature I still miss after 3 years. Sigh.
> 
> Everyone's dying for an HD guide for the HR2x's. I'd settle for a return of the "TiVO-style" guide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Larger image here.


Steve, it's functionally present on the HR23. In the guide view, scroll to the left and highlight in yellow the channel numnber. Press INFO. There is it. You can scroll down. I've been using the HR23 for 1 1/2 years now not realizing it was there.

***EDIT - Sorry, posted at the same time as RAD


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## Skyboss

E91 said:


> I think TIVO continues to decline becaues of the realities of the situation. Most of major providers out there (E*, D*, Fios, cable) have their own internally developed systems.


That's TIVOs fault. They had DirecTV locked up and were thriving.


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## Skyboss

CuriousMark said:


> hey bobcamp1,
> 
> I just got whole home DVR setup installed yesterday. I decided not to wait another 5 or 6 months. I have an HR24 and an H24 now. I was familiarizing myself with the HR24 unit, setting series up to record and the thing locked up twice. In both cases it stopped playing back video, stopped responding to the remote and after about 5 minutes rebooted itself. Neither of my 2 Series 2 TiVos has ever done this. I called DTV and they are coming back out. I suspect I may have just gotten a lemon because from what the CSRs said, it should not have done this at all. This is just a data point and it is my first experience with a DirecTV DVR, but it leaves me a bit nervous.


Lemon. I have three HR24s in a DECA and have no issues.


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## Steve

RAD said:


> While not exactly the same remember you can get something similar when you cursor left to the channel number and then hit info.





rayik said:


> Steve, it's functionally present on the HR23. In the guide view, scroll to the left and highlight in yellow the channel numnber. Press INFO. There is it. You can scroll down. I've been using the HR23 for 1 1/2 years now not realizing it was there.


Ya. I know it's there. I found it early after switching to the HR20's back in 2007, because the TiVO-style GUIDE was my HR10 default.

I'm just saying if I could still default to a GUIDE like that, I'd have no need for an HD version of the current HR2x "grid" GUIDE. The TiVO style GUIDE showed me the next 8 shows on 8 different channels, with a detailed description of any one I selected. And I could express back and forth in time with the << & >> keys.

That's just me, tho. I realize other folk's have different needs.


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## CuriousMark

Steve said:


> Mark, one other data point if they are coming out again. Not sure if you ever run into recording conflicts, but if you replace the H24 with another HR24, you'll have 4 tuners available for simultaneous recording (and 200 hours total HD storage), for the same monthly charge you're now paying. You'll probably need to lay out another $99 up front, however.


I had a few conflicts, but was able to pick those up on my SD TiVos which are what drive two D12s. Those are mostly new shows that we may dump after seeing one or two episodes. If they get un-conflicted, I can move them to the HR later.

I am a bit underwhelmed by conflict management so far. Instead of showing me which shows I will and won't get, it just seems to say it wants to dump the whole series or have me dump another whole series. With my TiVo's I can see right then what specific showtimes are the issue, and decide based on better information. Dancing with the stars is a good example of where the TiVo system is superior in that respect. Luckily, I can model it on the TiVo, and then go to the HR and set it up the same way there.


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## CuriousMark

Skyboss said:


> Lemon. I have three HR24s in a DECA and have no issues.


Supervisor is on his way here now. I should know very quickly.


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## CuriousMark

Steve said:


> Ya. I know it's there. I found it early after switching to the HR20's back in 2007, because the TiVO-style GUIDE was my HR10 default.
> 
> I'm just saying if I could still default to a GUIDE like that, I'd have no need for an HD version of the current HR2x "grid" GUIDE. The TiVO style GUIDE showed me the next 8 shows on 8 different channels, with a detailed description of any one I selected. And I could express back and forth in time with the << & >> keys.
> 
> That's just me, tho. I realize other folk's have different needs.


I'm with you. Spoiled, but I don't care. I am glad to learn of this option. I wish I had known about it last night when I was setting up over 30 series links.


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## ffemtreed

rayik said:


> Just discovered the HR23-700 has a feature that I actually missed from my old DirecTivo.
> 
> On the Tivo, I used the List guide where you could highlight one channel and it would have a vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel alone (and you could scroll through it). This was very helpful on premium channels such as HBO. Could look through 2 weeks of shows really quickly, selecting some to record.
> 
> Discovered yesterday the HR23-700 can do the same thing. In guide, go left until you highlight the channel number. Then hit info. It pops up the same vertical list of upcoming shows on that one channel that the Tivo did. It's scrollable like the Tivo list.
> 
> Unfortunately for this Tivo lover, there is now one less reason to want a D* Tivo.


I tried it a couple of times but its really cumbersome to use. Its slow as molasses in January and still only shows the next 5 or 6 shows. I timed it and it took 8 seconds from the time I pressed the info button till when the screen came up. To scroll down took another 3 - 4 seconds on each keypress.


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## CuriousMark

CuriousMark said:


> Supervisor is on his way here now. I should know very quickly.


The tech was thorough and check and tightened all the connections, but did not find anything wrong signal wise. He switched out the HR24 anyway. We will see if that helps, I will play with it tonight.

I noticed that after all his work, neither Hx24 box sees music, photos and More anymore. Perhaps that will come back with time.
{Edit}Indeed, as with most things DVR, patience is key. Music plays.{/Edit}


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## E91

Skyboss said:


> That's TIVOs fault. They had DirecTV locked up and were thriving.


Maybe, but I wasn't really trying to assign blame. The main point is that there is no market for a standalone DVR. Tivo will only survive by partnering with providers.


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## Shades228

If TiVo loses their IP lawsuits they'll be gone in less than 6 months. The only thing keeping them going is the prospect of some big payouts. Even then once the lawsuits are over I don't see them sustaining their business model for more then a few years.

I had many series 2 tivo's with DirecTV and when they went away I was sad. I enjoyed the UI but a UI doesn't make an entire machine and although I have had some problems in the past my DireTV DVR's have been fine as well. A UI is nice but overall it doesn't mean I'd change companies over it.


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## bonscott87

CuriousMark said:


> I had a few conflicts, but was able to pick those up on my SD TiVos which are what drive two D12s. Those are mostly new shows that we may dump after seeing one or two episodes. If they get un-conflicted, I can move them to the HR later.
> 
> I am a bit underwhelmed by conflict management so far. Instead of showing me which shows I will and won't get, it just seems to say it wants to dump the whole series or have me dump another whole series. With my TiVo's I can see right then what specific showtimes are the issue, and decide based on better information. Dancing with the stars is a good example of where the TiVo system is superior in that respect. Luckily, I can model it on the TiVo, and then go to the HR and set it up the same way there.


Hmmm, I think you're confused. The conflict resolution on the HR2x is actually better then what Tivo offers.

On a Tivo if you have 2 shows set to record and you select a 3rd it will give you the choice of canceling the lowest priority of the first two or cancel your new request.

On the HR2x it will give you the choice of canceling *either* of the first two or the new request. And it certainly doesn't cancel the entire series, just the episode in question that is in conflict and if there is a later showing it will pick it up and record it...just like a Tivo.

I'm guessing you may be running into something else. Describe your issue and people here can help.


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## bonscott87

Steve said:


> Ya. I know it's there. I found it early after switching to the HR20's back in 2007, because the TiVO-style GUIDE was my HR10 default.
> 
> I'm just saying if I could still default to a GUIDE like that, I'd have no need for an HD version of the current HR2x "grid" GUIDE. The TiVO style GUIDE showed me the next 8 shows on 8 different channels, with a detailed description of any one I selected. And I could express back and forth in time with the << & >> keys.
> 
> That's just me, tho. I realize other folk's have different needs.


I really liked the Tivo style guide too after using it for several years. But I came to like the HR2x guide better because it's much, much faster to setup recordings. On the HR2x you can do the Info thing on say HBO and pretty quickly with one touch record setup a dozen (or more) movies to record over the next 2 weeks on that channel in just one minute. It would take a lot longer then that on the Tivo.

But it's all a matter of taste and what you're used to.


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## ejjames

I, too, much prefer the tivo style "list" guide. However, it is nice to see a grid of all major networks primetime lineup on one screen. (the way I have it set up. 

What I use the "scroll to the left" for is the movie channels. About once a week, I'll go through and pick what I want to record.


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## Brennok

tonyd79 said:


> Three years is a long time in the world of DVRs. Also, did you include the cablecard price in your calculations? Not to mention that that large of a cost up front is a huge hit compared to the "savings" over a few months. There is the time cost of money involved here.


3 years is a long time except as far as I know 3 years is the same amount of time FiOS has been using the same DVR except for new software updates. Yes I did include CableCARD fees which is $3.99 a month or $47.88 a year.

I agree it is a decent amount up front, but technically you can do $140 followed by $299 when you activate which could be up to 7 days after the CableCARD install. Then after that you are just paying $4 a month.

For me it was an easy decision though since I was using SD on DirecTV so it came down to buying HD DVRs for DirecTV or buying TiVos for FiOS. FiOS obviously won out for me once I saw how my bill dropped by switching which made the upfront cost even easier to swallow.



tonyd79 said:


> Bad assumption. I have one Fios DVR not the whole home unit. How does a single Tivo compare to a whole home unit? They do not perform the same function.


How it is a bad assumption? I merely included it as another price point. The $575.64 covers the regular HD DVR and the $719.64. You are correct though. The TiVo doesn't have access to VOD, but can transfer content, which currently on FiOS is everything, to a PC and then watch it there, a laptop, or transcode it so you can play it on other portable devices. It can also play content pushed or pulled or streamed back to the device with many common codecs. My TiVo plays all my ripped DVDs from my server either by streaming or I pull it or push it.



tonyd79 said:


> I recently transferred a Tivo unit to a friend. What a nightmare. First I had to convince Tivo that I didn't want to buy a net unit then they messed the billing up for two months. No thanks..


This hasn't been my experience at all. I have transferred multiple TiVos to and from my account, but they have always been lifetime units.



tonyd79 said:


> Maybe but you are paying for it. Besides, for movies it allows me to not have to tie up a tuner or schedule them. (I am talking prepaid or free movies. I do not do PPV.)


I don't consider myself paying for it since I have all the content I could want that is on VOD. When I had VOD for the first 3 months with a free HD DVR, I didn't use it once. Every time I went to check it I only found stuff I already had a recording for.

I rarely record movies since I dropped the movie channels for Netflix. Of course I constantly seem to have HBO for free due to all the 3 month promos FiOS always has, I am on my 3rd in a row currently. When I do record a movie, I just transfer it to my server and watch it whenever I want. I don't do PPV either. When I do record movies, I just schedule it late at night or mid-afternoon when I know I won't usually have anything recording.



bobcamp1 said:


> I just did the cost analysis of Verizon DVR vs. FIOS with Tivo vs. DirecTV. Because of my grandfathered status, D* came out way ahead in cost. The break even point for purchasing a Tivo vs. using the Verizon DVR was one month shy of 3 years. And that included ALL the costs, including a discounted Tivo Lifetime service which I am eligible for, Cablecards, etc.
> 
> The cost analysis makes two horrible assumptions. The first is ignoring the fact that Tivo only has a 90-day warranty. If the box breaks before the 3 years are up, I'll lose a lot of money. Also, it assumes no one will raise their monthly prices.
> 
> I agree with every one else here. This same conversation is going on in the Tivo community forum. You simply can't make a stand-alone DVR that's competitive with a leased unit. Which is why the HD DirecTivo might be the best of both worlds.


I was also grandfathered on DirecTV when I left, but my bill for SD was $150 a month with multiple receivers, protection plan, and E/W feeds of NBC and ABC. Then I was paying Verizon $90 a month. My bill with Verizon with the Extreme HD package and 3 TiVos costs me $151 a month which includes faster internet than I had when I was on Directv and the same phone service. Now I don't have the E/W feeds, but I have Win 7 Media Center recording the locals when I have conflicts on my TiVos.

TiVo does have a warranty past the 90 days. 90 days is only for the free parts and labor. Also usually a problematic TiVo is due to a bad drive which can be easily replaced and you are out the cost of the drive which also usually results in more recording space as prices drop. Of course if you feel the need TiVo does offer an extended warranty or you could just buy one from squaretrade.


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## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> [...] On the HR2x you can do the Info thing on say HBO and pretty quickly with one touch record setup a dozen (or more) movies to record over the next 2 weeks on that channel in just one minute [...]


Who says a DirecTV rendition of a TiVO-style GUIDE wouldn't allow use of the *R* button in the right column as well? Remember, TiVO didn't allow "one-touch" if you selected the grid guide either.


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## Brennok

bonscott87 said:


> It's a fair comparison but as someone else mentioned, it doesn't take into account how fast the market technology changes. How quickly have we gone from cable cards to SDV and now the FCC is looking for something else to replace cable cards. Could be IP based like Uverse. So 3-4 years from now the Tivo may not even be able to tune to your cable signal. I would not want to put that much money into owning something that may (and has a good possibility) of being obsolete in 5 years if not sooner. Things are changing way too much to be locked into certain technology.


I agree and completely understand. Personally I think I would prefer to pay the same amount or $8 more in this case with the chance I could sell the hardware in 3 years to recoup some money versus 3 years of leasing something with no potential for any way to recoup.

Don't get me wrong I am following the FCC proceedings and I am definitely curious to see what is going to happen especially at the October meeting. I figure it will give some clue on how things will go in the future especially with regards to delays. Am I nervous about my TiVos no longer working one day? Not really because I have already past the point of breaking even and I am now saving money every month. If I had the choice to make today, would I still do it? Yeah, I would either go with TiVo or Media Center over leasing a cable or satellite box.


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## smiddy

Whoa, it is still open.


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## bicker1

bonscott87 said:


> I would not want to put that much money into owning something that may (and has a good possibility) of being obsolete in 5 years if not sooner.


That's really the best argument for leasing STBs and DVRs. Not that I buy into that argument... just sayin' that that is the best argument for it...


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## bicker1

Shades228 said:


> If TiVo loses their IP lawsuits they'll be gone in less than 6 months. The only thing keeping them going is the prospect of some big payouts. Even then once the lawsuits are over I don't see them sustaining their business model for more then a few years.


Well, I think you need to research TiVo a bit more, then. As much as it hurts the free enterpriser in me to say, TiVo has never been in it just for the money. They've safeguarded their management team from the standard pressure from investors that most companies must acknowledge and placate. They've had opportunities in the past to "cash out", at what was generally considered clearly among the best opportunities to do so, and they haven't. Expecting standard business behavior from TiVo is simply not a good idea. They just don't comply with what most others would do.


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