# Still No OTA Guide Data 10 Months Later



## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

About 10 months ago, I posted that I was not getting OTA guide data on
my 622 even though I subscribe to locals. Dish technical finally got back to
me and said that since my zip code was covered both the Philadelphia DMA
and the New York DMA, the 622 software only allows for my zip code the New York
locals to map down and provide OTA guide data. 

According to Dish my zip code is 39% New York DMA and 61% Philadelphia DMA.
I live in the Philadelphia DMA and get Philadelphia locals. But my locals do not
map down and I get no OTA guide data. With my old 921, I did get OTA guide data
but no map down of Philadelphia locals. I called Dish technical support over the
weekend about the problem to follow up and their response is that I have not
called about this problem since March 2006 and they would pass it along. Also technical support the other day denied that my zip code was in two DMAs telling me that it was impossible. 

I am still waiting for OTA guide data.


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## Gilly (Apr 5, 2005)

Don't know if this would work, but have you tried putting a different zip code in that screen that has your zip? Try a zip code from another part of Philly. Just a thought.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I am pretty sure the ZIP code field is not used for mapping of the OTA EPG info, but it is worth a shot.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Ron Barry said:


> I am pretty sure the ZIP code field is not used for mapping of the OTA EPG info


I am positive that zip code isn't used for anything except dish aiming information (I don't have one set up and I get most listings). The ACCOUNT (location) zip code determines what guide information you SHOULD get. The problem is that DISH still isn't supplying the guide information for some stations in a lot of areas. I been after them since last February and they are getting better in my market (Cincinnati). They even have listings for some of the subchannels now. My biggest complaint is that they still don't have ANY listings for the three PBS stations HD's feeds. They have them for the SD feeds but I never watch them and the schedule is different for the HD feeds.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yeah that is how i understood it, but always leave that door open.  If I recall from Hound.... His situation was one that was more along the lines of a edge condition vs. just not having the info. Others had reported getting guide info for philly and it seems that due to his location something was not working right.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

Hound said:


> ... the 622 software only allows for my zip code the New York locals to map down and provide OTA guide data.


 Tell that to 622 customers who live close enough to multiple markets that it only supports your local zip code. There are people who get guide data from (2) cities, the one they live in and a nearby one (with a capable antenna).


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## JSIsabella (Oct 20, 2006)

Hall said:


> Tell that to 622 customers who live close enough to multiple markets that it only supports your local zip code. There are people who get guide data from (2) cities, the one they live in and a nearby one (with a capable antenna).


Now I am really confused...........

Here is how I understand the local EPG to work:

You have to purchase the locals from Dish for your local area. The locals you can purchase are based upon your address.
Dish purchases the EPG from a third party company and sends that data to the 622.
Software inside the 622 maps that local EPG data to the OTA channels.

Now it is obvious that the 622 has mapping problems, as there are many reports about some or all of the purchased locals EPG data not being linked to the OTA channels. That is the problem I have, and have had no response from Dish about a fix. I have asked about adding a manual method of linking the EPG data to the OTA channels, but that also went nowhere.

But your quote says that there are people getting guide data from multiple cities. So how is that possible? The PSIP data is not supposed to be interpreted by the 622.

Or is my understanding about how this is all supposed to work incorrect?


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

I do not think the dish pointing zip code has anything do do with OtA EPG
I have EPG for any station that is picked up buy the tuner that is carried by dish.
As long is it is stored, at this time I have listings for 4 DMAs in my 622 and 921, 2 of the stations are are over 200 miles away.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

OlJim brings up another gripe that I have. In my market (Cincinnati) I can pick up Cincinnati and Dayton digital channels via an antenna and the 622 ATSC tuner. I subscribe to the Cincinnati locals (the only ones I am eligible for) and I DID get both Cincinnati and Dayton EPG listings until just a few months ago. Now, ALL the Dayton stations say "digital service". Out of market listings is something that DISH must do market by market since some poeple get them and others don't. I think that if we subscribe to a locals package we ought to get listing for ANY station that we can pick up.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

JSIsabella said:


> Software inside the 622 maps that local EPG data to the OTA channels.
> ...
> 
> But your quote says that there are people getting guide data from multiple cities. So how is that possible? The PSIP data is not supposed to be interpreted by the 622.


I get OTA guide data for my Sacramento OTA channels as well as the San Francisco (about 100 miles) channels. I usually can't actually get the SF OTA digitals, but as long as you can get a channel lock on the station, it gets the PSIP data to get the "display channel number" and Call Sign. It doesn't use PSIP data for EPG info, but it does use it to map say UHF channel 51 is to be 6.1 and 6.2 and be KVIE. The receiver does continue to look at PSIP data since when a station screws it up, you may not be able to select 6.1 any longer and get anything (but the ATSC tuner in the TV might).

What I get for EPG info includes the subchannels for Sacto and SF PBS stations which are different content than the sat provided locals (SD), so it isn't restricted to sat locals. That certainly isn't the case in lots of DMAs, but it is for these two. KQED in SF actually has 5 subchannels 9.1-9.5. 9.1 is the HD channel and off air right now, but 9.2-9.5 all have correct EPG info for the shows right now. None of those 4 subchannels match the analog 9.0 (I have a 942, not a 622) which is what I assume DISH carries for a SD local (it isn't my DMA).

There was a post in the last couple weeks of someone being able to change "Digital Service" to correct Guide info by changing the Call Sign in the menu where you add OTA channels. There have been similar posts in the past, but also lots of people that haven't been able to get that trick to work. Other people have Gained or Lost EPG for an OTA by doing a channel scan or manually entering a "transmit channel number". It does really SEEM like the receiver uses it to find the matching info in the EEPG for each channel (or subchannel where more than one is available in the EEPG).

I had to wait about 9 months for the Sacto OTA channels to be correct in the Guide (and people had been waiting before I got my receiver). They got it right last April/May.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

Bill R said:


> OlJim brings up another gripe that I have. In my market (Cincinnati) I can pick up Cincinnati and Dayton digital channels via an antenna and the 622 ATSC tuner.


Have you come across someone that subs to the Dayton DMA to know if they were getting Cincinnati and lost them too? Didn't you losing Dayton coincide with a 622 firmware update? Have you come across an 811 user in Cincinnati that also lost Dayton?


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

My question is who in the world do you contact to try to get the problem corrected? CSRs and Tech support sure don't help. I've written to the Dish Quality address, [email protected], and they said they don't have anything to do with it (and no email address on WHO to write to). Next month I will have had my 622 one year and I STILL don't have any listing for ANY PBS HD stations.

Just who did you guys that got yours fixed talk or write to?


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## Hound (Mar 20, 2005)

Gilly said:


> Don't know if this would work, but have you tried putting a different zip code in that screen that has your zip? Try a zip code from another part of Philly. Just a thought.


I tried it and nothing mapped down and I did not get any guide information. I believe that zip code is only used for pointing the dish. The zip code would have to be changed by Dish for the channels to map down.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

CABill said:


> Have you come across someone that subs to the Dayton DMA to know if they were getting Cincinnati and lost them too?


I haven't seen anyone mention that on any of the forums but I don't always get to read all the posts.



> Didn't you losing Dayton coincide with a 622 firmware update?


I can't really say for sure since I wasn't watching the EPG listings that close but I do think so.



> Have you come across an 811 user in Cincinnati that also lost Dayton?


I don't know anyone that has an 811. Everone that I know that has DISH HD has a 622 and everyone reports the same problem.


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

Bill R
I got my 622 last Feb. I have always had OTA EPG for any stations that are carried by dish on both my 622 and 921.
If the station is stored in I get the epg, several stations I never rec. anymore but still get the EPG
I get EPG for 2 stations in Orlando FL that I was able to pick up last summer they are 250 miles from here.
I know the zip code has nothing to do with it, my zip is 00000 in the 622, I never put in the zip for my address.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

There should be a LOT of people that may have EPG info now where it only had Digital Service previously. I just read http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=76742 and there are a TON of 14,000 range channel numbers added. Those are the "pretend" channel numbers DISH uses for EPG info w/o any matching sat channel. Lots of Call Signs listed there - might be worth searching the list for "your" stations. No guarantee, but some people's wait should be over.


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## larrysano (Oct 13, 2006)

CABill said:


> Have you come across someone that subs to the Dayton DMA to know if they were getting Cincinnati and lost them too?


I live in Dayton, and I still get guide data for NBC-5 and CBS-12 out of Cincinnati.

Not to change the subject or hijack the thread or anything, but I really wish I didn't have to subscribe to dish locals just to get the EPG info. I have no other use for locals from dish. Why can't the 622 just interpret PSIP?


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Larrysano:

Do a search on PSIP and you should find some threads. Here is one from the useful tips and threads sticky.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62939

Short answer.. Not enough data and not reliable enough nationwide to be used a a general solution for DVR use. -> That is my feeling based on info I have read.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

larrysano said:


> I live in Dayton, and I still get guide data for NBC-5 and CBS-12 out of Cincinnati.


 You get guide data for the "main" digital channels only, correct ?? Not for WLWT and WKRC sub-channels ??

There are a variety of circumstances involved in all of this. Since this is the 622 forum, I'm not going to go into the other receivers.


 Dish has made a decision to block the guide data for all sub-channels. By sub-channel, I'm referring to what's typically not simulcast on the analog channel. For example, my local CBS station, WHIO, has (3) broadcast channels: analog 7, digital 41-1 and digital 41-2. 7 and 41-1 simulcast the same programming; 41-2 is a weather channel. I get guide data for 7 and 41-1 (or 7-1 on my Dish receiver).


 If you subscribe to your locals and you're able to receive locals via OTA from another city, you should get the guide data for the non-sub-channels as long as Dish also carries those locals in the other city.


 In select cities, Dish is adding guide data for sub-channels via "virtual channels", i.e. those in the 14000 and up range. Until your city is added to these channels, the first bullet still applies.


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## JSIsabella (Oct 20, 2006)

Hall said:


> Dish has made a decision to block the guide data for all sub-channels. By sub-channel, I'm referring to what's typically not simulcast on the analog channel. For example, my local CBS station, WHIO, has (3) broadcast channels: analog 7, digital 41-1 and digital 41-2. 7 and 41-1 simulcast the same programming; 41-2 is a weather channel. I get guide data for 7 and 41-1 (or 7-1 on my Dish receiver).


One of the problems with blocking the sub-channels is that sometimes the sub-channel is another main station. In Youngstown, Ohio, the CBS station (WKBN) is 027-1 and the Fox station (WYFX) is 027-2, since they are owned by the same company. I get the EPG for CBS, but not for FOX. But the guide data is there for channel 62, which is the FOX channel number in the locals pack I purchase.

Man, this is so confusing...................


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

#1 problem with PSIP is that it is transmitted with the ATSC TV signal and is only available when you are tuned to that channel. Even in a world (that we have not reached yet) where all PSIP is accurate the receiver needs to check EVERY local channel for it's PSIP info to build a guide.

If every station provided an accurate PSIP guide for 48 hours the receiver could scan the ATSC channels and buffer what it gets either early in the morning or any time the ATSC tuner was not in use for viewing.

It would help if stations cooperated --- every station in a market sharing PSIP data and transmitting it on every ATSC feed in the market. Most stations can't seem to get their own PSIP right ... let alone a shared arrangement.

These problems are why E* relies on the satellite feed for EPG. Per the uplink report dozens of new ATSC station's EPG were added this morning - these are generally subchannels (the .2s in the world).

I can no longer receive the signal (I took the antenna down) but my ViP locked in on a distant TV station and got the out of market EPG. I'm not sure why anyone else's area would be different.


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## Dan The Man (Oct 1, 2005)

larrysano said:


> I live in Dayton, and I still get guide data for NBC-5 and CBS-12 out of Cincinnati.
> 
> Not to change the subject or hijack the thread or anything, but I really wish I didn't have to subscribe to dish locals just to get the EPG info. I have no other use for locals from dish. Why can't the 622 just interpret PSIP?


Uggg...this isn't good. 
I bought an antenna a few weeks ago, and the reception is fantastic. So I cancelled my locals today, and my guide data is now gone. It never even occurred to me that I wouldn't be able to get guide data OTA. Can someone verify that is the case? If that's the way it works, I guess I'll have to turn locals back on. That sucks. (Vip622)


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## ChuckA (Feb 7, 2006)

That's the way it works! Always has been. The CSR should have told you about that when you cancelled locals.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

Hall said:


> You get guide data for the "main" digital channels only, correct ?? Not for WLWT and WKRC sub-channels ??
> 
> There are a variety of circumstances involved in all of this. Since this is the 622 forum, I'm not going to go into the other receivers.
> 
> ...


The List  of EPG info added today should have included the .2 subchannel for WKRC:

14152 WKRC2 ADDED TO Tp 23 Spotbeam 10 from Monee for EchoStar 10 at 110w

I've been getting subchannel info for ALL PBS subchannels for about 9 months and a huge number of subchannels were added TODAY.


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## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

Dan The Man said:


> Uggg...this isn't good.
> I bought an antenna a few weeks ago, and the reception is fantastic. So I cancelled my locals today, and my guide data is now gone. It never even occurred to me that I wouldn't be able to get guide data OTA. Can someone verify that is the case? If that's the way it works, I guess I'll have to turn locals back on. That sucks. (Vip622)


It's just amazing how little research is done on these forums before someone does something like this. If they would only read just a few pages of discussions on these forums, they would save a lot of time and trouble.


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## larrysano (Oct 13, 2006)

Hall said:


> You get guide data for the "main" digital channels only, correct ?? Not for WLWT and WKRC sub-channels ??


I get guide data for WLWs weather subchannel, but am not sure about the CW subchannel of WKRC (12.2). I don't bother adding that to my guide since it's not in HD and I get the Dayton CW just fine. If CABill says it though, then I won't disagree 

Thanks too everyone for the PSIP info/clarification. Hopefully someday there will be a better solution than getting EPG data from the satellite. 622 internet connectivity would be ideal, but I digress....


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

larrysano said:


> I get guide data for WLWs weather subchannel...


 How long have you been getting this ??


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## oljim (Aug 6, 2002)

Same here I now get EPG for the PBS 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3 HD from Charleston SC it just started today.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

CABill said:


> The List  of EPG info added today should have included the .2 subchannel for WKRC:
> 
> 14152 WKRC2 ADDED TO Tp 23 Spotbeam 10 from Monee for EchoStar 10 at 110w


Yes, We have listings for CinCW now.



> I've been getting subchannel info for ALL PBS subchannels for about 9 months and a huge number of subchannels were added TODAY.


Listings were added today for a lot of ours (including two PBS HD stations). In the Cincinnati market we now have listings for all but two of the subchannels, 014-06 (14HD) and 019-02 (The Tube). This is MUCH better than it was before (and the way it should be). We still don't get listings for the Dayton stations (all say "digital service") but I can sure live with that.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Cool... Glad to hear we got some movement in this area...


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## Tim Lones (Jul 15, 2004)

I've been following some of these threads in preparation for getting an HDTV and hopefully a 622 ViP in the next few weeks..Just to clarify.If I get Cleveland Locals through Dish and have a strong enough OTA antenna to get Youngstown stations..Both sets of locals would show up in my 622 program guide?

I know this may seem simple for those who have dealt with this for awhile, but this HDTV is a whole new world for me..


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## JSIsabella (Oct 20, 2006)

I guess the best answer to that would be:

You should get the EPG for most of the Youngstown "-1" HD stations. At this time, none of the sub-channels have EPG data. WNEO-1, the PBS station, was in the new list, but it was not being displayed this morning. I will check it again later.

These have guide data:

021-1 NBC
027-1 CBS
033-1 ABC
045-1 PBS - hopefully today!

The sub-channels that you will not see guide data for at this time are:

021-2 CW
027-2 FOX
033-2 My-YTV
033-3 WYTV Weather
045-2 PBS-2
045-3 PBS-3
045-4 PBS-4

Hope this helps.


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## larrysano (Oct 13, 2006)

Hall said:


> How long have you been getting this ??


For as long as I can remember. All it says is "NBC 5 Weather Plus" over and over, but it's there nonetheless. I also double checked and I now get listings for WCET (48.1), WRGT's MNT subchannel (45.2), and WKRC's CW subchannel (12.2). Still no listings for WHIO's weather subchannel (7.2) or WPTD (16-16.6 - except for 16.2, oddly enough).


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I also have been getting sub channel data since I got my 622. I Get them for NBC, ABC, and even PBS. 

Glad to see more people are starting to see them appear.


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## Hall (Mar 4, 2004)

larrysano said:


> For as long as I can remember. All it says is "NBC 5 Weather Plus" over and over


 If you've been getting it before Wednesday, that's very unusual ! WHERE was that guide data coming from ??


> I also double checked and I now get listings for ... WRGT's MNT subchannel (45.2)


 I am too now. That had to have appeared just yesterday.


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## CABill (Mar 20, 2005)

Hall said:


> If you've been getting it before Wednesday, that's very unusual ! WHERE was that guide data coming from ??


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67656&page=3&highlight=WLWT2&p=693407 shows the guide data for WLHT's .2 being added 10-18-06

14655 WLWT2 ADDED TO Tp 23 Spotbeam 10 from Monee for EchoStar 10 at 110w

Often, a rescan or delete and manual add has been necessary if the FIRST time the channel was added to the receiver, the PSIP info doesn't match what it puts out now. The EPG info has been available for several months but that doesn't mean everybody got it in their guide.


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