# Did you ever wonder why ...



## Guest (Nov 14, 2003)

we won't tolerate a coffee maker that makes cold coffee?
we won't tolerate a washing machine that doesn't clean clothes?
we won't tolerate a DVD player that skips?
we won't tolerate a fridge that doesn't keep food cold?
we won't tolerate a vaccuum that doesn't ?
we won't tolerate a computer that doesn't?
we won't tolerate a calculator that doesn't?

Yet, we continue to tolerate the miserable excuse that Dish calls tthe 721. This platform does not and has never done what it was advertised to do when introduced. While 721 does offer two tuners often only one tuner works until the unit is replaced. Timers don't fire on time, can not be edited, spontaneous reboots abound. Check switches that don't. Long awaited software revs that don't reallt fix long suffering problems but do introduce new problems to occupy our time.

Call Dish and tell them but they have no clue. Continue filling out "uncommon trend" reports for "common" problems that never get resolved. Dish continues to want to treat the symptom and not cure the disease.

And you who continue to rag others who complain, you are part of the problem. The 721 does not competently do the job which is was advertised, intended, or sold to do. Consumers have the right to expect products to function properly under the UCC. Perhaps it's time for 721 owners to begin to file in small claims court to recover the 721 purchase price and be compensated for time and money wasted.

And you who anxiously await the release of the 921 ... has Dish's lack of fulfillment and inability or unwillingness to make good on it's promise of features or software upgrades taught you nothing. You think the 921 will be different from the 721? I can't wait to hear you scream after you've spent $1000 and bought a doorstop.

Honestly, it is in Dish's interest to sell stuff that works. Happy customers are referring customers. Has Charlie's mental faculties so degenerated after the failed merger attempt that he forgot what built Dish up to the point that he could realistically make the merger offer?

Two words Charlie: CUSTOMER SERVICE

Sell hardware that works, write software that works, and Dish saves a fortune by not having to spend time on the phone apologizing for products that has problems.


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

What you describe has nothing to do with the 721 I've owned since early this year.
While they did replace it because I couldn't get it to call out, both the old system and new system basically work perfectly. They do what I want and expect and have given me excellent service. I'm not sure what problems you have run into, but they go against my experience.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

One oddity thats common to EVERY dish DVR back to the beginning, not every receiver has a problem at the same time.

I think pissed sums it up well and E should give any unhappy sub their money back.. 

You know I get slammed here for my negative posts on E and wonder why, but I think its because most posters here really want E to do well. They dont like hearing negative reports on what was the top of the line box when they themselves are planning on spending over a $1000 on the 921 the newest top of the line box.

They may be concerned its their future.

Thats bad for chucks business, word of mouth can hurt as well as help.


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

If my systems didn't work I would want to get my money back too. My views have
little to do with how well E does in the market place. I do think they have been
slow at providing new software for the 721 and it only just recently got the upgrade
for a portion of Interactive TV capability. However, I wanted people to know that
the system I've had, though it had its problems, E was helpful in getting things fixed.

In fact, the system at one point was amazing. The hard drive crashed and the system
actually recovered from it completely by automatically reinstalling the OS. I've not had
that kind of recovery from any PC I've owned including Linux PC's from Dell. I've had
failures of Dell systems (about 4 failures in the last year), but not one of them recovered
automatically. Microsoft should do as well as E in the software arena.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

> In fact, the system at one point was amazing. The hard drive crashed and the system
> actually recovered from it completely by automatically reinstalling the OS. I've not had
> that kind of recovery from any PC I've owned including Linux PC's from Dell. I've had
> failures of Dell systems (about 4 failures in the last year), but not one of them recovered
> automatically. Microsoft should do as well as E in the software arena.


Oh... yea! That's just what I want! A PC that wipes out EVERYTHING I have on my computer when it encounters a (possibly recoverable) error! Yea, that's the ticket.

Computers come with a feature like that for idiot users who don't actually *use* their computer... it's called a recovery disc. Pop it in your CD-ROM drive an go to town reformatting and wiping out your entire computer anytime a problem crops up.

Fortunately, the people who design computers usually use them, and don't want such a mind numbingly stupid option, possibly destroying years of work... Much like the 721... destroying months of recordings on a whim and with no warning! Yay... go 721.

Of course... storing the recorded programs on another partition, away from the OS re-install would make sense, but when was the last time Dish designed anything that made sense and actually worked?


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2003)

dwforslund said:


> In fact, the system at one point was amazing. The hard drive crashed and the system actually recovered from it completely by automatically reinstalling the OS. I've not had that kind of recovery from any PC I've owned including Linux PC's from Dell. I've had failures of Dell systems (about 4 failures in the last year), but not one of them recovered automatically. Microsoft should do as well as E in the software arena.


Ah, I get it ... 4 Dell system failures and you keep buying Dell ... the perfect Dish customer.

Far from being a Microsoft fan I have an AMD PC running Windows 98 (original and far from a respected OS) that has been running every day since September of 1995. Never crashed, never had to reinstall OS. So whether you like it or not ...
it's not always the hardware and it's not always the software that causes problems but when it works right it is the software and the hardware. In my mind the big advantage to Dish over Direc is that Dish is a vertical company. In theory that should means software that runs correctly on the company's own hardware. Direc has to make it's software run on Sony, RCA, Hughes, et al and that's much harder to do (unless of course you are TIVO and did the software correctly from jump street).

Let's wait for the 921 and see how it fares out of the box ... oh yea, word is that some features won't even be operational when 921s are shipped ... I rest my case.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

pissed said:


> And you who continue to rag others who complain, you are part of the problem. The 721 does not competently do the job which is was advertised, intended, or sold to do. Consumers have the right to expect products to function properly under the UCC. Perhaps it's time for 721 owners to begin to file in small claims court to recover the 721 purchase price and be compensated for time and money wasted.


I am happy with my 721. I don't think it is my fault that you are dissatisfied with yours.


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

pissed said:


> Ah, I get it ... 4 Dell system failures and you keep buying Dell ... the perfect Dish customer.
> 
> The Dell systems were repaired within 24 hours and in some cases had no complete failure because of redundancies in the system. Let's face it, hardware can break from time to time. That is why many systems have redundancy built in.
> 
> ...


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

pissed said:


> Ah, I get it ... 4 Dell system failures and you keep buying Dell ... the perfect Dish customer.
> 
> Far from being a Microsoft fan I have an AMD PC running Windows 98 (original and far from a respected OS) that has been running every day since September of 1995. Never crashed, never had to reinstall OS. So whether you like it or not ...
> it's not always the hardware and it's not always the software that causes problems but when it works right it is the software and the hardware. In my mind the big advantage to Dish over Direc is that Dish is a vertical company. In theory that should means software that runs correctly on the company's own hardware. Direc has to make it's software run on Sony, RCA, Hughes, et al and that's much harder to do (unless of course you are TIVO and did the software correctly from jump street).
> ...


Can you say troll!!!! 

The fact that you say you have WIndows 98 and it has been running very day since 1995 shows your trolling. there is no windows 98 install that can run more than a month unless it is sitting there doing nothing.

LOL.... I did find it humorous and not even worth replying..

When I see People post under guest I sometimes wonder if they are regulars trying to support their own assertions.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> The fact that you say you have WIndows 98 and it has been running very day since 1995 shows your trolling. there is no windows 98 install that can run more than a month unless it is sitting there doing nothing.


I guess not on a computer you built or maintain ... that you can't make a similar claim only means that I have skills and an understanding of computers that you do not. I'm not smarter than you I just do what I do very well. Don't fault me for your inability to identify quality components, assemble and test them properly, and then install configure and properly setup an operating system.

But it is true. Simply a solid and compatible hardware platform with Windows 98 set up properly and I've been pretty particular about what other software has been installed.

As for all the 721s that work perfectly and offer every feature that was advertised, how's that internet access? Said it had it on the box I bought. How's that weather we just got after waiting a year? Caller ID working reliably?

As for my being a troll, take issue with my statements and argue against them with facts. Am I a troll or might I just be sick and tired of seeing other people who are not happy with Dish products failing (to whatever degree) getting flamed for it here for publishing their feelings and experiences?

Is not the point of forums like this to share knowledge and experience? Or shall some tread on eggshells because some local forum bullies blindly defend their purchases and refuse to see reality (or own just a little too much Echostar stock)?

If you can't factually defend your position then I am not a troll ... you are just simply wrong.

And for those of you who have no problems with their 721s (and so far I see three) ... wanna trade?


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## bunkers (Dec 16, 2002)

My 721 has made it 2 weeks now, and its growing on me. Only minor issues so far. I will admit I sometimes wonder why I stick with DISH -- but maybe its a love hate thing?

When DISH RMA(d) my 501, they sent me refurb 501 with front panel buttons which didn't work at all. 

That unit got sent out, so obviously no QA going on there. That got me pissed.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

pissed said:


> ... running Windows 98 (original and far from a respected OS) that has been running every day since September of 1995. Never crashed, never had to reinstall OS. ... I rest my case.


Boy, that would be a good trick. Windows 98 wasn't released until almost 3 years AFTER September of 1995....


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

But it is true. Simply a solid and compatible hardware platform with Windows 98 set up properly and I've been pretty particular about what other software has been installed.

As for all the 721s that work perfectly and offer every feature that was advertised, how's that internet access? Said it had it on the box I bought. How's that weather we just got after waiting a year? Caller ID working reliably?​
...

And for those of you who have no problems with their 721s (and so far I see three) ... wanna trade?[/QUOTE]


What about the ridiculous claim that you were using Win98 since 1995? If you don't put any software on a Win98 machine and don't use it much it will run fine. Do anything that a real system should let you do and it is about as unstable as can be. Same is true in my experience with most of the Windows product line, but I still use them, because that is where the software is. This is independent of the quality of hardware the software is running on.

My 721 does what it was advertised to do. I never thought it was supposed to do Internet (how would it?). The Caller ID works fine, but it has to be set up correctly with the right hardware. I'm bummed that I only have weather in the interactive tv section, but I don't need that stuff much anyway. I like the guide displays which beat all the other E* products that I've seen.

Why would I want to trade my 721 that works perfectly for something I know nothing about? I'm not under the illusion that all 721s work perfectly, as is well attested by people on this forum. But I have had good help from people here as well as from E*.

What I would like is a way to hook the machine up to a network and download the digital video to another device. There are hints on how to do this on this forum, but not enough to make it happen easily.​


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2003)

Big Bob said:


> Boy, that would be a good trick. Windows 98 wasn't released until almost 3 years AFTER September of 1995....


Actually Big Bob you are right and I am wrong. Windows 95 OSR2 in September 1995 and then upgraded to Windows 98 in August 1998.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

There are times I wonder about the posters here who report their 721 works perfectely. Could some of them be E employees helping their employeer?

I dont know and am not accusing anyone. But anything one reads on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt. 

I just wish everyones receiver worked klike its supposed too.


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

_

Bob Haller said:



There are times I wonder about the posters here who report their 721 works perfectely. Could some of them be E employees helping their employeer?

I dont know and am not accusing anyone. But anything one reads on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt.

I just wish everyones receiver worked klike its supposed too.

Click to expand...

_
I can assure you that I have no connection with E, and have had to return my 721,
but it basically works ok. I have had to reboot only on rare occasions. I did have
a lot of trouble getting it to dial out, which is why they RMA'd my machine. There were
no complaints from them. In fact, they insisted, even though otherwise the machine
was behaving well.

1.15 of the software does have some good new features, but we do see occasional
hesitation on the system as well as difficulty erasing recorded programs on occasion.

Overall, it seems to run as well or better than my PC.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Again NOT accusing ANYONE, it was more of a general wonderment on the subject. Certinally E workers do post here, over the years I have unearthed a few.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> Again NOT accusing ANYONE


Then what was the purpose of your post?


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## ctroberts (Aug 23, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> There are times I wonder about the posters here who report their 721 works perfectely. Could some of them be E employees helping their employeer?
> 
> I dont know and am not accusing anyone. But anything one reads on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> I just wish everyones receiver worked klike its supposed too.


I've been reading all of this insessant whining for months now, and I'm just tired of it - I'll probably just stop reading this site after posting, or maybe just block out some of the more common whiners..

Is the 721 a perfect marvel of technology? No
Is the direct-tivo better? Probably

But my god - don't you people have ANYTHING better to do? Go WATCH your damn TV's instead of complaining about them.


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## Big Bob (May 13, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> There are times I wonder about the posters here who report their 721 works perfectely. Could some of them be E employees helping their employeer?


Or perhaps the posters here who have nothing positive to say about the 721 work for D*? Could they be helping their employer?



ctroberts said:


> Is the 721 a perfect marvel of technology? No
> Is the direct-tivo better? Probably
> 
> But my god - don't you people have ANYTHING better to do? Go WATCH your damn TV's instead of complaining about them.


Amen


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

pissed said:


> I guess not on a computer you built or maintain ... that you can't make a similar claim only means that I have skills and an understanding of computers that you do not. I'm not smarter than you I just do what I do very well. Don't fault me for your inability to identify quality components, assemble and test them properly, and then install configure and properly setup an operating system.;
> 
> But it is true. Simply a solid and compatible hardware platform with Windows 98 set up properly and I've been pretty particular about what other software has been installed.


This is not even worth arguing about. If you are able to have Win98 run continuiously for months at a time, I suggest you enter your computer in the Guiness book of records. Such an outlandish statement is usually Troll bait. Other people have addressed this outlandish claim so I will leave it as that. I am very familar with Windows OSs and basd on my experience realiability list goes like this (Top worse to bottom best)

Windows 95
Windows Me
Windows 98 
Windows 98 Se
Wndows NT
Windows 2000/OS/2
Windows XP (Not sure about this one. not a lot of time on it)
Linux
Solaris

Anbody that is using 98 heavily and getting more than 2 days without a reboot is lucky.. This is from my experience and has nothing to do with being careful about picking the right product and the hardward. I use quality hardware products and work in a company that does also. The above statement is laughable!!



pissed said:


> As for all the 721s that work perfectly and offer every feature that was advertised, how's that internet access? Said it had it on the box I bought. How's that weather we just got after waiting a year? Caller ID working reliably?


I never claimed this and I don't think anyone here has either. There is a poll here I started and most people felt that the 721 was reliable.



pissed said:


> As for my being a troll, take issue with my statements and argue against them with facts. Am I a troll or might I just be sick and tired of seeing other people who are not happy with Dish products failing (to whatever degree) getting flamed for it here for publishing their feelings and experiences?
> 
> Is not the point of forums like this to share knowledge and experience? Or shall some tread on eggshells because some local forum bullies blindly defend their purchases and refuse to see reality (or own just a little too much Echostar stock)?
> 
> If you can't factually defend your position then I am not a troll ... you are just simply wrong.


What position?? First off have you hear of the chroma bug?? That caused a number of DVD players not to play DVDs. My Refrigirator GE Monogram as a design flaw in it that has caused premature failure. Windows and Computers by nature are not rock solid contary to your claims. I have no EchoStar stock.

The fact is most people have claimed the 721 as being a stable product from what I have seen here. I don't own one so I cant give any personal experience.

As for going after people here for bagging on the 721. I only voice my opinion if it goes on and on about the same thing. I have had a few exchange with Bob on this point.

If you are really that sick with your 721, then sell it on Ebay and jump to D*. Simple as that!! Oh.. you and Bob can start a class action law suit. 721 topic has been beaten to death here.

Well thats it for me here. I posted two more than I planned on this thread.....


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> I am very familar with Windows OSs and based on my experience realiability list goes like this (Top worse to bottom best)...


At least you have the honesty to preface that remark with "based on my experience".



WeeJavaDude said:


> I use quality hardware products and work in a company that does also.


Apparently not high enough quality. I guess that because you can't make it work then no one can?



WeeJavaDude said:


> The fact is most people have claimed the 721 as being a stable product from what I have seen here. I don't own one so I cant give any personal experience.


Oh, so you don't own a 721? So you don't get the "last 5 minutes of the recorded event not recorded" or "the timer didn't record" or "the day of the times event changed" or"spontanious reboots". You're awfully opinionated for someone that hasn't had to experience these annoying little aspects of the 721. Lay out your $500 bucks and then see how you feel.

Going over the number of posts regarding problems with 721s it seems that there are more who have complaints then there are that are totally happy and have no problems. But that's only counting the people who actually own a 721 and not the ones who don't but still have opinions.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Sad that linux rated nearly the best in operational stability is the OS E choose and still managed to make it unstable.

I wonder what would happen if refrigerator manufactuers downloaded new software into fridges that made a percentage of them to quit working reliably lawsuit city there.

Hey if someone started a class action on the 721 poor performance and unfufilled promises I would be first in line to sign up. E somehows figures their poor original dishplayer performance didnt get them in trouble. So they must feel safe to continue creating buggy boxes and leaving out features promised on the package.

Now true a successful class action wouldnt net much money. But it might just get E to think twice before screwing any more customers. I woukd LOVE to see a combined class action for DP, 721, and disastified subs of all kinds caused by their crappy software. 

It just might make them clean up their act,

As for myself I am writing a nice letter to consumer reports. Some publicity on E is now in order I will point them to the internet discussions of E troubles!!! Sending aloing some stuff to skyreports toio questioning their bias. They NEVER cover negative stuff like this

I think it would make a good article and give pause to any manufacturers that change software on customer owned equiptement.

You know if I thought E wuld fix the 721 troubles anytime soon I wouldnt be so mad. But we rate very low since the 721 is discontinued and had such low sales numbers to begin with.

Todays 721 might be tomorrows 921. A word of warning to those about to shell out a $1000 on a box with out of date chipset with troubles.


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> Sad that linux rated nearly the best in operational stability is the OS E choose and still managed to make it unstable.



What are you talking about? Who ever said the OS in E is unstable? The fact that the system can recover from a hardware failure is a sign of the stability of the overall system even in the presence of failures.



Bob Haller said:


> I wonder what would happen if refrigerator manufactuers downloaded new software into fridges that made a percentage of them to quit working reliably lawsuit city there.



Actually I think our 721 is more reliable than my old refrigerator which had a documented design flaw which they refused to fix

I do think that the posting in these forums have a natural bent to them. One usually looks at these forums to see if there experiences are shared by others and how people deal with them. If the system runs well, people have little reason to hang around and discuss what is good. The difficulties people have show up in a greater proportion than they do in reality because of this bias.

The previous message describes many things I've never heard before. Certainly people should be careful how they spend their money, but I've found the 721 worth the investment, despite the small number of glitches.

If people demanded cars that didn't fail, the US auto industry would be out of business. I don't expect the 721 to be perfect, especially with the enormous rate of change in this industry. Certainly I would like to see some new things in the 721, but I understand the technology limitations in this area.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I feel a huge sucking sound of me getting sucked into a flame war...



pissed said:


> At least you have the honesty to preface that remark with "based on my experience".


I am a software engineer of 15+ years experience and been around PCs for over 20. I have worked with embedded systems and do video editing as a hobby (Video editing is some of the most flaky software current offerd in the PC word). That is my experience. I have been around Windows, linux, solaris and OS/2 throughout my carreer.



pissed said:


> Apparently not high enough quality. I guess that because you can't make it work then no one can?


I never said that no one can make solid software hardward combinations. I am saying that no one can make Windows 98 rock solid. It is inherently fragile and I believe anyone in the software industry would agree with me expect a few remaining windows Zealots.



pissed said:


> Oh, so you don't own a 721? So you don't get the "last 5 minutes of the recorded event not recorded" or "the timer didn't record" or "the day of the times event changed" or"spontanious reboots". You're awfully opinionated for someone that hasn't had to experience these annoying little aspects of the 721. Lay out your $500 bucks and then see how you feel.


Never claimed I did. I got involved in these discussions because I am thinking about getting a 921.. I will be shelling out twice what the 721 was. With the negative posts, I asked the question about realiability and much to my suprise most people felt it was reliable. Scan for the posts. I never claimed the defects you mention are there or not and I have never claimed the severity either. I have had my share of issues with Dish amoungts other fenders it is part of leading edge.



pissed said:


> Going over the number of posts regarding problems with 721s it seems that there are more who have complaints then there are that are totally happy and have no problems. But that's only counting the people who actually own a 721 and not the ones who don't but still have opinions.


Disagree here.. Happy people don't post so making that statment shows how little you know about this board. WHen asked 60+ percent claimed it was reliable and another 30% said they did not have a 721 if I call. Ofcourse this is not a full blown analysis, but I would consider it more accurate than claiming there are more negative posts on the 721 than positive. Due to the nature of the board that could be said for ever product on here.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

dwforslund said:


> If people demanded cars that didn't fail, the US auto industry would be out of business. I don't expect the 721 to be perfect, especially with the enormous rate of change in this industry. Certainly I would like to see some new things in the 721, but I understand the technology limitations in this area.


Yea, but there are "lemon laws" covering problem cars.

As far as "new things in the 721" I'd settle for my 721 just doing what it is supposed to on a reliable basis.

As others have said on this forum "*it shouldn't be this hard to watch TV*" and I believe that says it all.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Sad that linux rated nearly the best in operational stability is the OS E choose and still managed to make it unstable.


Bob.. I didnt state my list as fuel for your argument. There are plenty of unstable products that can run on top of linux. The OS does not mean get stability. it is just a solid foundation to build upon.



Bob Haller said:


> I wonder what would happen if refrigerator manufactuers downloaded new software into fridges that made a percentage of them to quit working reliably lawsuit city there.


Fridge is a different type of beast. I wonder why there was not a law suit for what I considered a defective design. I have spent over 600 dollars in repairs over the last 10 years for the same part.. Different story!! 



Bob Haller said:


> Hey if someone started a class action on the 721 poor performance and unfufilled promises I would be first in line to sign up. E somehows figures their poor original dishplayer performance didnt get them in trouble. So they must feel safe to continue creating buggy boxes and leaving out features promised on the package.
> 
> Now true a successful class action wouldnt net much money. But it might just get E to think twice before screwing any more customers. I woukd LOVE to see a combined class action for DP, 721, and disastified subs of all kinds caused by their crappy software.
> 
> It just might make them clean up their act,


Go for it Bob...



Bob Haller said:


> As for myself I am writing a nice letter to consumer reports. Some publicity on E is now in order I will point them to the internet discussions of E troubles!!! Sending aloing some stuff to skyreports toio questioning their bias. They NEVER cover negative stuff like this
> 
> I think it would make a good article and give pause to any manufacturers that change software on customer owned equiptement.


THat is one person's opinion.. Before you do, might want to check out the camera sites.. I have a feeling you might find a few friends. 



Bob Haller said:


> You know if I thought E wuld fix the 721 troubles anytime soon I wouldnt be so mad. But we rate very low since the 721 is discontinued and had such low sales numbers to begin with.
> 
> Todays 721 might be tomorrows 921. A word of warning to those about to shell out a $1000 on a box with out of date chipset with troubles.


Take that under advisement... And Bob.. the 4900 still gets fixes from time to time...

.... Some things never change .....


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

pissed said:


> Yea, but there are "lemon laws" covering problem cars.
> 
> As far as "new things in the 721" I'd settle for my 721 just doing what it is supposed to on a reliable basis.
> 
> As others have said on this forum "*it shouldn't be this hard to watch TV*" and I believe that says it all.


<joke>Was that a quote for Bob??  There are plenty of people that have stated there 721 is working fine.. Could it be that you did not properly install yours? or maybe your wiring is cheap or possible flaky AC..</Joke>


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## dwforslund (Feb 2, 2003)

pissed said:


> As others have said on this forum "*it shouldn't be this hard to watch TV*" and I believe that says it all.


I've never found it easier and more pleasant to watch TV with the 721. I think most people with 721s would agree, as indicated by the opinion poll referred to earlier. The 721 is way more pleasant than using the 501/508 because of the much better user interface and because of the ability to record and watch at the same time. I'm sure something better could be made, but the 721 works well for what it was designed to do. If you have one that doesn't work, I'm sure that if it is still under warranty that the E folks will RMA it. Worked for me pretty much as I would have expected.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Ok, the flame vacuum got me.

It would seem that nobody on this board gets flamed for posting 721 problems except for Bob. The reason for that is because he refuses to do what is the next logical step to solve his problems, which is to drop E* for D* and get a tivo. I don't doubt that he has problems, but he is a non-standard user by his own admission, and the sheer number of receivers he has gone through points to some other root cause for his problems, possibly power/ground related. Another reason he gets trashed is because all of his posts are flame bait, and he is a troll of the worst kind. I refuse to pay him any direct attention any longer, so long as I don't have to moderate his posts.

I don't see much value in this thread. If the petty bickering continues, the thread won't.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

I think we can all agree the previous software was better bug wise. Yeah just like the OLD dishplayer posters who werent having troubles blamed the peoples installs, grounding etc. Its the software and E knowlingly released buggy software The get to the guide cant navigate bug was in the beta version and they didnt bother to fix it.

Frankly I hope Consumer reports does a nice investigationa report into the pros and cons of software upgrade capability.

E needs the publicity to cklean up their act!

I feel bad for those of you who are about the shell out big bucks for the 921 you may be seeing your future


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

> What are you talking about? Who ever said the OS in E is unstable? The fact that the system can recover from a hardware failure is a sign of the stability of the overall system even in the presence of failures.


This is a total non-sequiter. It's like saying "The sky is blue! Eggs are yummy!"

What does one possibly have to do with the other? Absolutely nothing. The OS used on the 721 is stable, the software that runs atop that OS is a chunk of crap. The 721 "recovering" from a system failure has nothing to do with it's stability, in fact, by the sheer existance of that ability, it indicates known problems!

That's not to say it's a bad idea... it's not. _I_ know there will be the occasional problem, and the 'feature' to restore your system after a catastrophic failure is a good thing, and with the volume of 721's, it's inevitable that it will eventually happen. But to say that it can recover (and consequently wipe out your entire recorded library) is an indicator of stablity is ludicrous.

To add insult to that injury, the fact that the recovery was so poorly designed that it doesn't keep your recorded library just further drives the point home that Dish has absolutely no clue on how to design software and anything they've put out is amatuer at best, shoddy at worst.

The logical thing to do for system recovery would be to put make three partitions. You boot partition, your root partition and your data partition. When a catastrophic failure occurs, the boot partition is restored from NVRAM and flagged as restored. If the failure remains after boot, the root and boot partitions are restored from NVRAM and flagged.

At this point, that will solve 99.5% of your catastrophic problems (And also keep the anti-hacking measures in place) - and the user will still reatain their recorded library. If, by some exceedingly rare circumstance the actual recorded library is the source of the failure, on the third (and thusly final) boot, it would wipe that partition as well.

This is very simple to execute and design when based on their current method, yet was not done! Why? The simple answer (Using Occams razor here) is that either the software designers are so amateur they don't give any consideration to recover methods, they are too lazy, or the product is so rushed that they can't be bothered to spend the extra couple days it would take to impliment a scheme like this.

There really is NO reason to wipe out the recorded library at the first sign of failure, and that should only be done as an absolute last resort.

Now, I'm in agreeance with a lot of what Pissed is saying, but for him to say that his 98 box runs for more than a couple weeks without a reboot is utterly ridiculous. I guarentee I have skills and experience that far exceed Pissed when it comes to building and maintaining PC's and mini's. I've been doing it for more than 20 years, and have worked intimately with every Microsoft OS in existence.

I can also guarentee you, proof positive, that a Windows 98 system can not run for more than 31 days with anything more than a keyboard attached. Yes, that's right ... if a mouse is attached to a Windows 98 system, due to a memory allocation bug the Windows 98 system will crash on or about the 32nd day as soon as you move the mouse. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's a documented Microsoft bug that can't/won't be repaired. You can look it up in the MS bug trackers.

So there is no possible way Pissed's Win98 (and certainly not 95 OSR2) has been running for more than a month, regardless of whether he was using it or not.

Seriously... if anyone wants to make the claim of having a stable 98 system, go look it up on Microsoft -> it's all there for you to read on why 98 can NOT be a stable system... it's just physically impossible given the code.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

Inaba said:


> Now, I'm in agreeance with a lot of what Pissed is saying, but for him to say that his 98 box runs for more than a couple weeks without a reboot is utterly ridiculous. I guarentee I have skills and experience that far exceed Pissed when it comes to building and maintaining PC's and mini's. I've been doing it for more than 20 years, and have worked intimately with every Microsoft OS in existence.
> 
> I can also guarentee you, proof positive, that a Windows 98 system can not run for more than 31 days with anything more than a keyboard attached. Yes, that's right ... if a mouse is attached to a Windows 98 system, due to a memory allocation bug the Windows 98 system will crash on or about the 32nd day as soon as you move the mouse. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's a documented Microsoft bug that can't/won't be repaired. You can look it up in the MS bug trackers.
> 
> ...


My big computer has a volume date of 2-2-1999. That's when the initial and only Windows 98 install was done. It runs at least 8 hours a day and usually 7 days a week *but it is turned off at night* so it doesn't run 24/7. It competently runs a business, using all the features of MS Office, and connects to the net. It creates documents, manipulates spreadsheets, manages databases, creates Powerpoint presentations, and manipulates and edits still digital pics among its other jobs. It is on a W98 peer-to-peer network and it shares files with other users. It is a SCSI based box but does have a CD burner, CD-ROM, ZIP drive, two unique scanners, SLR5 tape backup, various USB devices and yes ... it has a keyboard and a mouse.

The OS has NEVER been reloaded and the system has NEVER crashed. I do back up religiously on the SLR5 Tandberg tape drive but so far I have never had the need to use it. Now I will accept that I may just be really lucky but that doesn't change the fact that my system has been cinder block reliable.

I guess there can be an exception to any rule.

And my 721 does have problems and I am not satisfied either with either the problems or with the speed with which the problems are resolved (or not resolved).

_______________________________
even a broken clock is right twice a day
_______________________________


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

The exception here is that you turn it off ever night. I have a Linux box that I use for development and it has an uptime of 73 days right now. The reason it is not longer is that I upgraded memory back then and had to turn it off. I am rather surprised that you have never had a blue screen of death or a freeze. I would not say that you are an exception, however I would say that you are very lucky.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> The exception here is that you turn it off ever night. I have a Linux box that I use for development and it has an uptime of 73 days right now. The reason it is not longer is that I upgraded memory back then and had to turn it off. I am rather surprised that you have never had a blue screen of death or a freeze. I would not say that you are an exception, however I would say that you are very lucky.


Being lucky is OK with me. I'm an old OS/2 guy (both OS/2 2.0 and 3.0) and also a Microsoft OEM System Builder. Windows will never approach OS/2 in terms of stability but my expertise with OS/2 helped me considerably in setting up and maintaining W98 and keeping it reliable. Some of my success was skill and I'm sure some was luck but isn't luck what success with any software from Microsoft is all about?:lol:

Based on the experiences of customers, co-workers, friends, and business associates I will agree that the "blue screen of death" seems like the opening screen of Windows (many flavors) and that turning the system off every night may be part of the reason I have not had problems. There may be lots of other reasons but what ever they may be it doesn't change my experience as stated.

It never said anywhere in the Windows docs "turn off your computer every night" or "don't ever turn off your computer". With the knowledge that most electronic/electrical failure is at power-on I have always had a hard time letting the old HD just spin away overnight and the machine keep itself toasty warm. Were it a server then it would run 24/7 without reservation but with hot-swap hard drives and redundent power supplies and many other considerations.

It's always easy to generalize and without first hand experience in a specific situation it's hard to even comprehend the specific experiences of another in that same situation. I was following this thread and found it absurd that anyone could take a position that was so generealized _that no one could have a Windows 98 computer that had been running any number of years without a fatal crash_. I have such an installation and many of my customers do also. I thought I'd be that second voice in the wilderness ... hear that Microsoft? There's at least two of us running Windows 98 reliably.

But fellow DBS junkies, it's just as absurd a position to generalize that anyone who is not "pleased as punch" with their 721s (or any other product by any other manufacturer) is a cry baby or out of their mind because your (the editorial "your") 721 satisfies you or more amusingly you (again, the editorial "you") don't even own a 721 and choose to defend it and attack its detractors.

Rather than tell those unhappy with 721s or anything else to go to the competitor doesn't it serve everyone's best interest to try to get the manufacturer to make the product work? I guess I could go over to Direc but I paid a lot of money for my Dish hardware and would like it to work as promised ... no more and no less. If Dish can't make that happen then moving to a Direc or cable is always an option I can explore when I've had enough. For now, I'll give Dish a little time ... but time is money.

We're supposed to share knowledge and experience on these forums. If one doesn't agree with another's experience or position we should at least consider that person's experience or knowledge as part of the overall sampling. Do we doubt that Neal Armstrong walked on the moon because we didn't? I'm sure everyone here would rather join in a loud chorus extolling the virtues of Dish or Direc or cable or whatever company remarking at the outstanding reliability of their hardware and the amazing speed at which they resolve problems but the reality is that when a Dish ATR tells me "I can RMA your 721 with a replacement but that won't solve the problems you are experiencing and I don't know when we will have the problems solved" then frustration is apt to set it and nerves get frayed.

Come on Dish ... many are pulling for you to come through.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Well to me reliability is more than running each day without a crash, but reliability is a relative term. There were stories of people rebooting WinNT every day and then claiming that WinNT was reliable (This was when WinNT was first released). I personally would not run any business on Win98, but that is me. 

No back to your point about 721. If you were to read just this thread you would get the impression that people are harped on if they cry about their 721. This is not the case if you read all the threads about the 721 I think you would come to the same conclusion. 

My experience here has been that certain people keep harping on the same issues and then extrapulating their problems to a much larger company problem. 

The fact is that with ever product their will be a portion of the population that feels it does not meet their reliability or usability requirements. With some products that portion maybe bigger than others. 

As for commenting when you don't own them... I personally have never commented on the defects or the reliability of the 721 since I don't have one. (I know you used the editorial you). I have only stated the fact that most 721 users find the 721 reliable based on the poll. The poll is by no means scientific. Most people have come out and said that under their use cases that the unit works for them. That does not discount the fact that some people are having issues with it and it also does not mean that the issues are not real. 

I believe the point here is... Does the fact that some people are running into some defects in the 721 make it an unusable piece of software? This was the assertion that people having the problems were making from my vantage point and was a concern of mine because I am thinking about buying a 921. One in particular made it at almost every possible post. 

So I don't think that everyone here is just waiting to pounce on a 721 user with problems and real issues. Maybe some are but that is not my intention. I have too many things going on to do that.

The flame wars start when it goes beyound that to the stating the same point over and over and over again. That is when it is usually suggested to move on because the problems the person is seeing will not be fixed in the time frame that would be acceptable. I get the impression that the person is know at the point of no return and is on a mission. I think a lot of these people are at that point and that is why I feel suggestions like that are made.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

You and I are pretty much in agreement. With the understanding that "reliability" is in the eye of the beholder and that "reliability" is usually more of a concept than a reality.

Consider this sceneario:

A Dish 721 (just an example  ) has some operational anomolies under the L112 software. These anomolies are reported to Dish and discussed ad nauseum on numerous forums and newsgroups. After about a year (give or take) Dish spools L115 that is a long promissed rev that will fix reported problems and introduce new features.

The spooling of L115 introduces (for at least) some 721 owners new problems and (for at least ) some 721 owners does not resolve existing problems.

Does not the introduction of these new problems coinciding with the spooling of L115 lead one to logically conclude that these new problems were software induced? The hardware hasn't changed. I'll concede that these new problems may be from interaction between specific 721 boxes and L115 but Dish is supposed to know their hardware platform not the customer. If the only change is new software then it is at least the "trigger" inducing the new problems and without an absolute ability to REFUSE software spools we are all and always susceptable to these knids of problems.


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## Inaba (Jun 20, 2003)

Typically in the computer field, reliablity is defined as how long a system remains stable without bouncing the machine.

This could potentially apply to processes on the box, as well, but generally only refers to bouncing the box (and not the process(es) in question). 

Your definition of reliable is the "layman" definition and does not apply to OS software, or machine hardware in this context. Reliable is defined as "Will the box keep running without intervention." In the case of Windows 98, no, it will not keep running without intervention. In your case, you reboot the box daily. Rebooting a computer daily is the very definition of an unreliable box (if it's required to maintain system integrity). In this case (Windows 98) daily or weekly reboots are absolutely necessary to maintain system integrity and reliability, and thus a Windows 98 box, by definition, is not reliable. 

Any "reliablity rating" you see in the computer field is based on continuously operating parameters, unless specified otherwise. Since we are talking about just this topic, "reliability" is pretty well and rigidly defined as above... 

The 721 software is fairly reliable by those standards, and has an acceptable failure rate, even if it is a pain in the ass and skirts the margin sometimes. However, the problem with the 721 and reliability from this standpoint is the fact that it's recovery scheme is amateurish and not at all suited to the task. It's ugly and a brute force method attempt at recovering from errors, and causes a great, great inconvenience to the consumer/end user.

By the "layman" definition of reliability, however, the 721 is not as reliable. It skips or deletes timer events, records indefinitely, locks up with too many timers, crashes to the underlying XWindows system spontaneously, ignores the remote on occasion, etc... I won't reash all the issues, but that's definitely not reliable in those terms.

But really, the bottom line, at least for me, is that I have a certain expectation when it comes to PVR's, and I expect all PVRs to behave in a similar fashion, with a similar reliabilty (both the underlying computer reliablity - IE - does the hardware/OS fail? and application - IE - does it behave properly? Fast? Do what I want it to do? Bring the system down?). The 721 doe snot have reliability for me in the application arena. It does not behave similarly to the other PVRs. It lacks many features, has bugs, etc... which aren't exhibited, or not exhibited to such a degree by other PVRs. So my expectations are based on a comparative scale, not an absolute scale.

10 years ago, the 721 would have been amazing, and all the little bigs and nit-picks wouldn't even be an issue... but when you have equivilent PVRs that don't have these problems, suddenly the 721 becomes the problem child of the PVR family.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2003)

Inaba said:


> But really, the bottom line, at least for me, is that I have a certain expectation when it comes to PVR's, and I expect all PVRs to behave in a similar fashion, with a similar reliability (both the underlying computer reliability - IE - does the hardware/OS fail? and application - IE - does it behave properly? Fast? Do what I want it to do? Bring the system down?). The 721 doe snot have reliability for me in the application arena. It does not behave similarly to the other PVRs. It lacks many features, has bugs, etc... which aren't exhibited, or not exhibited to such a degree by other PVRs. So my expectations are based on a comparative scale, not an absolute scale.
> 
> 10 years ago, the 721 would have been amazing, and all the little bigs and nit-picks wouldn't even be an issue... but when you have equivalent PVRs that don't have these problems, suddenly the 721 becomes the problem child of the PVR family.


Thanks Inaba ... right on point and what I meant better than I said it.

I expect my 721 (or 508) to execute a timer on time on the right day, not change any of the parameters of the timers covertly by itself, record the entire show, respond promptly to remote commands, and not spontaneously reboot while erasing all recorded events.

In other words I just want it to be competent. It need not excel in any area until it performs its fundamental tasks reliably.

And Inaba, you are right ... 10 years ago the 721 would have been a religious experience but the fact is that now other products reliably do what the 721 attempts with seemingly random success.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Steve S yu said it well. What irritates me is the OLD software worked better than thje present one. Plus with all the software problems with delayed receivers I have little to no belief E will address the 721 anytime soon. Heck I heard from a beta tester the non responsive remote bug was in thew beta version and E didnt even bother to fix it before spooling it to everyone


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Steve S yu said it well. What irritates me is the OLD software worked better than thje present one. Plus with all the software problems with delayed receivers I have little to no belief E will address the 721 anytime soon. Heck I heard from a beta tester the non responsive remote bug was in thew beta version and E didnt even bother to fix it before spooling it to everyone


I disagree that the old software was better. The only "new" bug I've had with 1.15 is the day changing when I modify existing timers. I don't even have the pause-restart problem. On the plus side, the PVR list shows the correct titles now for shows with more than 1 minute start padding. Considering how infrequently I modify existing timers (almost never) compared to how often I pad more than 1 minute early (almost always), I'm way ahead on this.

Dennis


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2003)

dbronstein said:


> I disagree that the old software was better. The only "new" bug I've had with 1.15 is the day changing when I modify existing timers. I don't even have the pause-restart problem. On the plus side, the PVR list shows the correct titles now for shows with more than 1 minute start padding. Considering how infrequently I modify existing timers (almost never) compared to how often I pad more than 1 minute early (almost always), I'm way ahead on this.


Since the 115 spool I am experiencing timer parameter changes when I haven't edited any timers. I've seen the day change numerous times. I can setup timers taking all the defaults and review them through the timer screen a day or so later and almost always one or more changes days or time or length. Still have the old "721 ignores the first remote button press", and aquiring signal error once in a great while. There are other less problematic occurances but I choose to ignore them for the time being.

We still seem to see different 721 boxes having different problems with different frequencyand the only constant is that the problems don't get fixed.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

My 721 really spazed last night. It dvloped a video stutter and went on to watch the video of one show with the audio of a different one. how wierd, reboot fixed it. I saw this once before about 2 boxes previous its hard to keep track after so many replacements


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