# BSG- Daybreak - Pt 2- 3/20/2009-Spoilers



## Wire Paladin (Sep 19, 2006)

Well the series is over. Some questions were answered and others weren't. I had hope for a home run ending like that of Newhart and not a disappointing ending like that of Mash. It's somewhere in between.

Things I liked.

The Chief killing the other FF Cylon who killed his wife
 Athena killing Boomer
Things I didn't liked.

Explaination or lack of it of what was Starbuck. A tool of the Angels?
Baltar's imaginary Six was an angel
All the flashbacks. Some weren't needed (not sure what Laura's or Adama's added to story)
Calvin killing himself. Too easy
Length of show- Last half hour was very slow
Moral at the end - This could be us


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## RayChuang1654 (Mar 2, 2006)

Actually, I _liked_ the last 25 minutes of the episode--it was a much-needed "decompression" from the intensity of the TV series in general. The scenes of Adama in the last few moments with his wife were especially poignant.

By the way, I wonder did Moore read Erich von Däniken's book _Chariots of the Gods?_ The last scenes of the episode provide something I've don't see on TV that often nowadays: real closure.

All in all, a fitting end to one of the greatest TV series in many, many years. :biggthump


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## Rduce (May 16, 2008)

I am very satisfied with the end, unlike M*A*S*H that should have ended several years before it did, BSG went out on top. 

Not all questions were answered, but that is simply life, not all things have answers and the cautionary tail to avoid allowing technology to take over our lives is very much on target. 

Brilliant finale!


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## Matman (Mar 24, 2008)

FRAK. Amazing series, and last nites episode went out WAY above my expectations. I was getting really worried that it was just gonna be a big shoot em up (anyone else think they used the entire seasons FX budget up last nite???) and then just leave us hanging, to wait for a movie in 2 years. I was very happy with how things were wrapped up. Yes, a few things weren't explained the best, but in my opinion, how could they? I don't think there was a "good answer" for Starbuck that would have appeased everyone, so the "angel/ghost" thing leaves it up to you. I do agree, Calvin shooting himself out was a weak point, WAY to easy of an end for that charactor, he deserved a good trip out the airlock with a nice 20 second tense build up, not a quick "bang" and gone. 

Overall, extremely happy (and cranking some Hendrix all day as that song is in my head.) with last nites episode, a definite A+. 

So long Battlestar, I just lost a good reason for TV last nite. 

So say we all.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

interesting read in q&a with moore, olmos etc.

stuff like -

moore: "Kara is what you want her to be. It's easy to put the label on her of "angel" or "messenger of God" or something like that. Kara Thrace died and was resurrected and came back and took the people to their final end. That was her role, her destiny in the show&#8230; We debated back and forth in the writers' room about giving it more clarity and saying definitively what she is. We decided that the more you try to put a name on it, the less interesting it became, and we just decided this was the most interesting way for her to go out, with her just disappearing and leave people wondering exactly what she was."

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/s...-finale-still-got-questions-weve-got-answers/


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

I was satisfied with tone of the ending, as it "felt right", but of course have some objections. Specifically, it bugged me that Ronald Moore felt the need to be on screen seen reading the National Geographic at the end.

It bugged me that I don't know what Kara Thrace was. Sam called her a harbinger, Gaius confirmed she died on Earth, she was physically present and seen by others, but she was apparently a ghost. What?!

Hera was what would save the human race and the Cylons. How did she do that at the end? Angel Six and Angel Gaius seem to recognize her as Mitochondrial Eve, but why couldn't any of the other Fleet survivors have been M-Eve?

Then the's the whole "break the cycle" thing and who's human and who's Cylon. I think I'm just confused there all the way around. There were humans on Kobol and on the the 13 Colonies. But Earth had human-form Cylons and the Final Five Cylons came from there to make a deal and give resurrection to their "children". Were there ever humans on original Earth? Now we have humans and Cylons on New Earth. Is that different or not different from the past? I think I need a good history lesson!


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## Matman (Mar 24, 2008)

I took it as Hera being the beginning of humans, being a Cylon/uman hybrid, and that jump to the future indicating that we are all the descendants of the humans and cylons. So she was the "future" for both races, basicially becoming us. I LOVED how the opera house turned out to be the CIC, GREAT way of bringing that shared dream back to reality and playing out. NEVER saw that coming that way! 

I was put off by the cameo of Ron Moore as well, but I would say its a deserved cameo, the guy did come up with a good series, and some of his ld ST:TNG episodes are fav's of mine, so I think he earned a few seconds of face time in the final run.

As for Kara, I think she is best left as whatever you want her to be. I agree with them, the more they try to peg her into a set definition, the harder it becomes to accept it. I think its a good "out" that lets each of us decide. Every viewer probably had their own idea of what she is, and I don't think one concrete answer would work. Besides, Starbuck never fit one set of parameters the whole dang series, why start now! 

I did find it interesting that although we saw the last colony, pretty beat up, and with partial resurection knowledge in the last scene, its WIDE open for a spin off set 400 years in our future........ we never saw the bad cylons all die. And those centurians are floating out there somewhere with a basestar. 

Man, when Lost goes off the air next year, I am gonna have to rethink my D* commitment, theres not gonna be anything left on thats "must See" tv! =)


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Matman said:


> we never saw the bad cylons all die.


its explained in the q&a post link they all died & how.


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## FogCutter (Nov 6, 2006)

Life here began out there. . .

Cool ending, mostly satisfying. Someone mentioned Chariots of the Gods -- that book was very big back when the original series was written. In fact the Viper pilot's helmets in that series were thick with ancient Egyptian motifs. 

We never saw God, but that's fine, and the ground is fertile for spinoffs galore. Hope the BSG franchise has a nice long run.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I may feel different after I have digested it for a few days, but here's my initial take...

the whole thing was ruined when "angel six" and "angel gaius" were talking in New York City and one of them said something like "(God) doesn't like that name." That, combined with Mr. Moore's cameo, led me to the following framework:

Mr. Moore created BSG, so he is, in effect, God. But he doesn't like to be called that.
What Gaius called angels, were simply plot devices.
He created head six and head gaius because he needed plot devices.
He resurrected Starbuck because he needed a plot device.
In the end, things went the way they went because that was Mr. Moore's plan. That's all, nothing more.
It now seems, any time Mr. Moore couldn't write himself out of a corner, he simply said, "that's my plan" and that was it.

That seems like a copout.

I suppose it would have been too much to ask for real closure, answers to things like why "All Along The Watchtower" was used, how Starbuck's dad knew it, how Hera knew it, its effect on other Cylons, etc.

It would have been a bit much to ask that everything that took place during the series was more meaningful than the flashbacks we saw in the last two episodes, but in the end only the things that took place in the flashbacks were really important to understanding the fate of the characters. In effect, Mr. Moore wasted _years_ of my time. I could have just watched the last two episodes.

In time, this may percolate and I may feel differently, but right now I'm pretty bitter. Go ahead, say this this was a character-driven ending to a character-driven series, say it had a good message going forward, and say if you wish that no ending that truly attempted to explain everything would have been satisfying. I'll agree with all of that, but none of it supersedes the overarching message I got last night....

"I'm Ron Moore and I have a plan. When I don't want to tell you the details, I'll just tell you it's my plan and you'll have to trust me."

One more semantically sick joke: The ads did say "All will be revealed." They didn't say "All will be explained." So true, all was not explained. Now explain to me why I feel like a fool for extolling this show's virtues.


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## Jimmy 440 (Nov 17, 2007)

I guess they were the fore fathers of Egyptians,Mayans and the Taltecs (sorry I don't know how to spell it).I liked the ending.I thought they could have done without some of the flashbacks.I really didn't care about the future Presidents love life.Hey did she use her younger ex student or what ? <lol> 
Cavil eating his gun,I'm not sure whether I liked that ? I thought this real bad guy was going to fight to the end and show NO mercey.That was a surprise.
And Chief Tyrol killing the other Cylon for murdering Callie,I knew that was coming at some point.Then Col Tighe tells him he would have done the same thing to him if someone did that to Ellen ! That was actually funny as he*l.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

All in all, I thought it was pretty good. Better than I hoped, and the ending of them finding "our" Earth was a complete surprise to me.

Like others, I felt the weakest part was Cavil eating his gun. If you blinked - you would have missed it. I also wish they would have explained Daniel more - remember the other skinjob model the FF created but then Cavil corrupted his DNA. I thought they were going to say Daniel was Starbuck's father, and that's how he knew the song and passed it onto her.

And what was the "job" Adama was interviewing for with the lie detector test? And why would they ask him if he was a Cylon during that lie detector test? At the time he took that test, the humans had not heard from the Cylons for sometime and they did not know that skinjob Cylons existed, so why would they ask him such a question? I guess you could say they asked absurd questions to get control answers, but how ironic that they would ask that question.


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## Rduce (May 16, 2008)

I am shocked that so many would feel that Cavil taking himself out was a weak point, which I do not think it was. He has always felt far superior to humans and certainly was not going to allow himself to be killed or taken by a species that he held with such disdain. It seems only natural that he take his own life in light of the circumstances. 

Clearly, Kara is whatever you wish her to be, a poltergeist, the undead or guardian angel, nevertheless she was destined to lead the survivors to Earth from the moment she reappeared and once that singular purpose was accomplished her reason for existence ceased and she departed the material world.

Starbuck was always an enigmatic character and it matter’s little that her full story was left open to ponder!


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

Cavil is a character who likes to be in control. What better way to control the situation than to take his own life? I have no quiblle with that.

One note, it was odd that at the end Angel Baltar said "it doesn't like that" when normally he would have said "god doesn't like that". Why "it" suddenly? All along it was "one true god", but I don't believe the form was ever alluded to - Cylon? Human? Other? Now it's an "it" ... and immediately after that Baltar shook his head and said "silly me". What?!


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, I think Battlestar Galactica is the best complete series ever shown on American TV. And this 131 minute finale was befitting.



Wire Paladin said:


> Well the series is over. Some questions were answered and others weren't. I had hope for a home run ending like that of Newhart and not a disappointing ending like that of Mash. It's somewhere in between.


I liked the Mash ending and this one because both demonstrated "life went on" which is always a boring thought. The 1950's I actually lived through, in the case of Mash. In the case of BSG, pre-150,000 bc seems almost plausible.



Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Moore created BSG, so he is, in effect, God. But he doesn't like to be called that.
> 
> What Gaius called angels, were simply plot devices.
> 
> ...


Gee Stuart, it sounds like you do need to step back for awhile.

We have to keep in mind that the whole show was an allegorical tale heavily into mythology (and/or religion depending on your point of view) within the framework of a highly technological society. Even in long allegorical books, the endings frequently are clumsy. As a TV show, this wasn't that bad an ending and it maintained its genre as an allegory. From Wikipedia:


> *Allegory*, an expression by means of symbolic figures, actions or symbolic representation. Generally used rhetorically, an allegory does not have to be expressed in language but may be addressed to the eye; for example, found in realistic painting, sculpture or some other form of mimetic, or representative art.
> 
> The etymological meaning of the word is broader than the common use of the word. Though it is similar to other rhetorical comparisons, an allegory is sustained longer and more fully in its details than a metaphor, and appeals to imagination, while an analogy appeals to reason or logic. The fable or parable is a short allegory with one definite moral.


 The "reality" created by the ending was on "our" Earth in the approximate year 150,000 bc. Given the limits of what we know in genetics, it offered that mankind has a common ancestor who was "half-machine" and "half-evolved human". It offered an evolving concept of hope, that each time "we" do it over again, there's a chance we'll get it right this time. And it reminded us that we are here again because the passion for vengeance is the "evil" that limits possibilities, even for machines we create "in our image" which is what we are doing now, both for domestic chores and for war.

I can't begrudge Moore's use of plot devices to wrap things up. There is a certain paradoxical situation that so many expected an explanation when the offer was to reveal - revelation is not explanation. In the context of an allegorical tale full of religion, it seems so perfect. We have a tale biblical in scope (old testament), with moral lessons explained in an illusive manner, something akin to parable using metaphors.

And he did it all within the confines of the early 21st Century American TV medium using the combination of two late 20th Century TV constructs - "action adventure" and "soap opera".

Using the TV medium, no team has as been as successful accomplishing this as the Battlestar Galactica team. And no broadcast network would have let them offer such things as humans worshiping "gods" while machines believe in the "one true god" or even the regular use of the invented euphemistic "frak" term. So I have to recognize level of support by NBCU's SciFi Channel.

My greatest fear is that we'll never see this kind of TV again. I'm recording NBC's "Kings" because it has this type of potential but it's so limited by the constraints of being on NBC. If NBC pick's it up for a second season, we'll watch it as season shifted.


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## Wire Paladin (Sep 19, 2006)

Indiana627 said:


> And what was the "job" Adama was interviewing for with the lie detector test? And why would they ask him if he was a Cylon during that lie detector test? At the time he took that test, the humans had not heard from the Cylons for sometime and they did not know that skinjob Cylons existed, so why would they ask him such a question? I guess you could say they asked absurd questions to get control answers, but how ironic that they would ask that question.


Yeah, I wonder about what the job is, too. I would have much preferred seeing what the job is instead of watching Adama puke. Seemed like he was being forced to take it. Perhaps this will be explained later.

Also what the frak about Daniel, the unknown Cylon. No mention in final. I was sure he was Starbuck's father but Moore said he wasn't.


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## Wire Paladin (Sep 19, 2006)

RayChuang1654 said:


> By the way, I wonder did Moore read Erich von Däniken's book _Chariots of the Gods?_ The last scenes of the episode provide something I've don't see on TV that often nowadays: real closure.


I can't complain about the scenes where they split up and settle all over the globe. I just didn't like the last scene where we jump ahead 150,000 years to NY City and see today's robots with the premise that it could occur again. *To me this looked like a promo for the Terminator.
*
I think it would have been better to show the Colonists settling across the globe with the last scene being the space ships heading in to the sun with the original BSG theme playing in background.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

phrelin said:


> (...)
> Gee Stuart, it sounds like you do need to step back for awhile.
> (...)
> 
> ...


Phrelin, my friend, I like the way you disagree, and it's a pleasure to debate you on this subject.

I probably do need to step back for a while and digest, and in time I may be ok with the way things ended. You do seem to agree with me that no explanation was ever promised, even though we all inferred that one was. We also inferred that when head six said she was a messenger of God, that it was a mind-trick, which apparently it wasn't.

I take two issues. First of all, without breaking forum rules, let us simply all agree that for the sake of those characters, Mr. Moore was God. He created them, created their destinies. It's not blasphemous to question Mr. Moore's word when he clearly says, through his characters, "it is my will that this thing happen and therefore it does."

In a framework of science fiction, where fifty-plus years of history should show you that every bit of pseudoscience and every plot hole will be discussed ad nauseam, to simply write off large parts of the mythos as "God's will" seems a bit weak and lazy, especially when God is, as I said, Ron Moore.

I've also read a lot of other reviews that say this episode was "morally ambiguous." There I strongly disagree! In fact it seems extraordinarily clear that the characters have only the smallest amount of free will; if they are going in the wrong direction for very long, "God" will step in and resurrect them, give them visions, dreams, prolong their lives, whatever it takes to make sure they play their parts. The moral is clear -- follow God's will because if you don't, it doesn't matter. You will sooner or later.

In retrospect the last ten episodes seem a complete afterthought. It seems as if the original plan was to have the fleet find Earth and find it destroyed, with perhaps a 1/2 hour segment where we find out the fate of the characters ten years later. For example, that radiation exposure killed anyone who spent too much time on the surface, that Starbuck was resurrected using Cylon tech, and that head six/head baltar was a side effect of the two of them being through a nuclear attack together combined with Cylon projection technology.

Then, NBCU, an organization I have more and more venom for, said they wanted ten more episodes and Mr. Moore realized he could go in and do more character development, stuff he should have done earlier.

It's funny that in the face of such glaring issues as Starbuck's very existence not being appropriately addressed, minor plot holes like how Ellen found the fleet and how Anders found the Cylons aren't being addressed either.

I would have been less disappointed if I'd never watched this final half-season.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

There was also no mention of D'anna in the finale. I guess Lucy Lawless wasn't available for filiming, but why not at lease mention D'anna in an off-hand reference?


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## DiSH Defector (May 4, 2008)

I think the only thing other than Cavil's suicide that bugged me was the mention of Hera as Mitochondrial Eve... not the fact that she WAS, but that she was described in the news report as the remains of a _girl_ found in Tunisia.

Are we supposed to form the understanding that Hera died not too long after Earth II was settled?


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## V'ger (Oct 4, 2007)

Rduce said:


> I am shocked that so many would feel that Cavil taking himself out was a weak point, which I do not think it was. He has always felt far superior to humans and certainly was not going to allow himself to be killed or taken by a species that he held with such disdain. It seems only natural that he take his own life in light of the circumstances.
> 
> Clearly, Kara is whatever you wish her to be, a poltergeist, the undead or guardian angel, nevertheless she was destined to lead the survivors to Earth from the moment she reappeared and once that singular purpose was accomplished her reason for existence ceased and she departed the material world.
> 
> Starbuck was always an enigmatic character and it matter's little that her full story was left open to ponder!


In a SciFi world, you could argue that enough of the resurrection tech was transferred to the Colony and when Cavil shot himself, he thought he would be resurrected.


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## V'ger (Oct 4, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I may feel different after I have digested it for a few days, but here's my initial take...
> 
> the whole thing was ruined when "angel six" and "angel gaius" were talking in New York City and one of them said something like "(God) doesn't like that name." That, combined with Mr. Moore's cameo, led me to the following framework:
> 
> I suppose it would have been too much to ask for real closure, answers to things like why "All Along The Watchtower" was used, how Starbuck's dad knew it, how Hera knew it, its effect on other Cylons, etc.


I question why the Cylons took one of Kara's ovaries during the siege at new Caprica and it was never used as a plot element again.

Kara's mother told her she had a destiny. Again, how would she know (an angel visited her mom?).

Finally, I think that they should have shown the Colony being pushed off the La Grange point and getting sucked into the Black Hole. Either the ramming of the Galatica or the nukes at the end should have been enough to do it, especially with Anders taking the hybrids off line.

I agree that I didn't like Moore's cameo. Make him one of the cavemen, he has the beard for it.

Also the music at the end when they first show the green grasses of earth sounds a lot like a slowed down version of the music from the beginning of ST:V where Kirk is climbing the mountain. Not sure if it was intentional.

I had hoped there would have been an earlier generation of Cylons, pre Final Five, that was manipulatiing the rest and people like Callie and Gaeta would have had a cameo appearance at the end, explain Kara's role, and that of her parents.

During the series we got a look at Classic Cylons from the first war. Where are they?


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## V'ger (Oct 4, 2007)

DarkSkies said:


> There was also no mention of D'anna in the finale. I guess Lucy Lawless wasn't available for filiming, but why not at lease mention D'anna in an off-hand reference?


There was a line in the first or second episode of the second half of the fourth season that D'anna made a decision to stay at the nuked out Earth by herself.


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## V'ger (Oct 4, 2007)

Jimmy 440 said:


> Cavil eating his gun,I'm not sure whether I liked that ? I thought this real bad guy was going to fight to the end and show NO mercey.That was a surprise.
> And Chief Tyrol killing the other Cylon for murdering Callie,I knew that was coming at some point.Then Col Tighe tells him he would have done the same thing to him if someone did that to Ellen ! That was actually funny as he*l.


If Cavil though that the Hybrid had enough of the resurrection technology to rebuild it in the short interval between the transfer and him offing himself, it is consistent with his prior behavior on New Caprica, where he intentionally killed himself to get out of a situation.

Finding out that Tory killed Callie surely reinforced Chief Tyrol's belief that you can't trust a Cylon. No mention of the fate of his (not his) and Callie's child in the last episode. His desire to go off alone, seems like abandonment, to me.


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## DiSH Defector (May 4, 2008)

V'ger;2038535 said:


> No mention of the fate of his (not his) and Callie's child in the last episode. His desire to go off alone, seems like abandonment, to me.


Several episodes back they show Tyroll handing over care of the child to Hotdog. IIRC there's a scene in Daybreak Pt 1 showing Hotdog carying him to/from somewhere, but you're right, nothing in the finale. Assumably he was with the other pilots' kids in daycare back with the fleet and made it to Earth II with the other colonists.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

I'm still unclear of what happened to the original Earth they found in the beginning of this season in January. Obviously it was nuked, but by who? And who originally settled it: the 13th tribe of humans or Cylons? And if Cylons, does that mean the 13th tribe was always Cylons? And why did all the tribes leave Kobol to settle on new worlds? Did the humans on Kobol create Cylons, who then rebelled and destroyed Kobol, forcing both sides to flee into the galaxy to find new worlds to live on, only to have the same thing happen again of their worlds being destroyed by themselves and their creations?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Another excellent example of another plot hole that will never be solved.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

V'ger;2038529 said:


> There was a line in the first or second episode of the second half of the fourth season that D'anna made a decision to stay at the nuked out Earth by herself.


Thanks. I don't recall that, so I appreciate the reply.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Phrelin, my friend, I like the way you disagree, and it's a pleasure to debate you on this subject.






> I probably do need to step back for a while and digest, and in time I may be ok with the way things ended. You do seem to agree with me that no explanation was ever promised, even though we all inferred that one was. We also inferred that when head six said she was a messenger of God, that it was a mind-trick, which apparently it wasn't.


In shows like this I tend to infer all kinds of things - I do in Lost, for instance. And I'm usually wrong as most of the writers are of a different generation and coming from a different set of assumptions. It's the fun of watching a complex scifi show.



> I take two issues. First of all, without breaking forum rules, let us simply all agree that for the sake of those characters, Mr. Moore was God. He created them, created their destinies. It's not blasphemous to question Mr. Moore's word when he clearly says, through his characters, "it is my will that this thing happen and therefore it does."
> 
> In a framework of science fiction, where fifty-plus years of history should show you that every bit of pseudoscience and every plot hole will be discussed ad nauseam, to simply write off large parts of the mythos as "God's will" seems a bit weak and lazy, especially when God is, as I said, Ron Moore.


Within the reality of human society, at one time or another through the millennia "the will of the gods" or "God's will" has been offered as the answer to almost everything. That it's weak within the context of scifi story lines doesn't mean its totally inappropriate given the plot history that they followed a book as interpreted by a few in order to reach the original Earth. But, yes, I would have preferred some deeper thoughts from Moore.



> I've also read a lot of other reviews that say this episode was "morally ambiguous." There I strongly disagree! In fact it seems extraordinarily clear that the characters have only the smallest amount of free will; if they are going in the wrong direction for very long, "God" will step in and resurrect them, give them visions, dreams, prolong their lives, whatever it takes to make sure they play their parts. The moral is clear -- follow God's will because if you don't, it doesn't matter. You will sooner or later.


I would have to agree that there was no ambiguity.



> In retrospect the last ten episodes seem a complete afterthought. It seems as if the original plan was to have the fleet find Earth and find it destroyed, with perhaps a 1/2 hour segment where we find out the fate of the characters ten years later. For example, that radiation exposure killed anyone who spent too much time on the surface, that Starbuck was resurrected using Cylon tech, and that head six/head baltar was a side effect of the two of them being through a nuclear attack together combined with Cylon projection technology.
> 
> Then, NBCU, an organization I have more and more venom for, said they wanted ten more episodes and Mr. Moore realized he could go in and do more character development, stuff he should have done earlier.
> 
> It's funny that in the face of such glaring issues as Starbuck's very existence not being appropriately addressed, minor plot holes like how Ellen found the fleet and how Anders found the Cylons aren't being addressed either.


That the last 10 episodes were not assured when earlier episodes were written is a hazard of TV. What you're focusing on is what wasn't explained, but was "revealed" in symbolic fashion. Here you and I diverge on opinion as I think they did fairly well. Perhaps the writers of _Lost_ who got a two season commitment will do better by offering more explanation and less symbolism. But I think BSG was the best series of its type since the beginning of American TV in the late 1940's.



> I would have been less disappointed if I'd never watched this final half-season.


You obviously had much greater expectations than I did. But for me with regard to scripted TV disappointment lies in shows with promise canceled before one completed season of 20+ episodes.


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

DarkSkies said:


> There was also no mention of D'anna in the finale. I guess Lucy Lawless wasn't available for filiming, but why not at lease mention D'anna in an off-hand reference?


Ditto! She and 6 were the babes of the series!


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Indiana627 said:


> I'm still unclear of what happened to the original Earth they found in the beginning of this season in January. Obviously it was nuked, but by who? And who originally settled it: the 13th tribe of humans or Cylons? And if Cylons, does that mean the 13th tribe was always Cylons? And why did all the tribes leave Kobol to settle on new worlds? Did the humans on Kobol create Cylons, who then rebelled and destroyed Kobol, forcing both sides to flee into the galaxy to find new worlds to live on, only to have the same thing happen again of their worlds being destroyed by themselves and their creations?


I'm pretty sure this was explained before so I'll try.

Kobol was the original homeworld (at least in this "cycle"). 
Humans created machines (cylons) and they rebelled creating a war the destroyed Kobol.
Humans went to found the 12 colonies and the 13th tribe which was cylon went the other way to Earth.
On Earth the Cylons had lost resurrection technology and over time created their own centurians who rebelled and they nuked each other. The final 5 had figured out resurrection again and escaped and went back to the colonies to warn them.
By the time they got to the colonies the humans had already done their own cycle of creating machines that rebelled.

And thus we had the series where now we settled down on our present day Earth and we may once again start the cycle by creating machines that could rebel.

Thus the whole "it has happened before and it will happen again" and talks about breaking the cycle.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Overa, I'm pretty satisfied with the way the series concluded. I still didn't need the flashbacks, they didn't add anything, don't like that Starbuck just vanished and am disappointed that Moore cut scenes like the Chief being thrown in the brig for his part in Hera's abduction and failing to show the Colony being torn apart as it was pulled into the black hole after being nuked. There are other little bits like this they sacrificed in favor of the nonessential elements, but like I said, overall, I was happy.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

say-what said:


> Overa, I'm pretty satisfied with the way the series concluded. I still didn't need the flashbacks, they didn't add anything, don't like that Starbuck just vanished and am disappointed that Moore cut scenes like the Chief being thrown in the brig for his part in Hera's abduction and failing to show the Colony being torn apart as it was pulled into the black hole after being nuked. There are other little bits like this they sacrificed in favor of the nonessential elements, but like I said, overall, I was happy.


I pretty much agree with this as my take on it. I was overall happy and thought the middle 90 minutes were really cool. But the flashbacks in both episodes were totally unneeded and felt like filler to me. What a waste.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

What was that ad for a BSG show coming this spring or summer? It was not Caprica. Something about the rise of the machines.


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

armophob said:


> What was that ad for a BSG show coming this spring or summer? It was not Caprica. Something about the rise of the machines.


BSG "The Plan", it will be from the Cylon perspective... Caprica looks neat too, is it like a prequil?


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## dodge boy (Mar 31, 2006)

I think it would have been way cool if it would have ended with Cavill holding a hand held computer in his hand talking to "Ziggy" and Dr. Sam Beckit would have shown up in Captain archer's body warning them not to go to the newly discoverend planet because the true future of the human/cylon survival was to start the Borg collective.... Thus tying Quantum Leap, BSG and Star Trek together :lol:


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

dodge boy said:


> BSG "The Plan", it will be from the Cylon perspective... Caprica looks neat too, is it like a prequil?


Yea, that's it. I think they will try to clean up some of the loose ends with this. I have my reservations about Caprica. I do not think I have the patience for that.


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## awdpaul (Nov 28, 2007)

I was pretty happy with the ending. Although there were some unfilled holes (what show doesn't?) and probably some cop outs it was generally good. I was very happy the deal with Cavil didn't actually go down, that would have been too easy. I also like how most of the characters wrapped up. Even Kara being an "angel" or "angel like" worked for me in a way.

I didn't care for the NYC piece at the end. I think it could have been left unsaid without any issue. I don't really care if Ron Moore made his own cameo. It's not like they had him actually play God and make a speech.

Overall I thought it did a great job recapturing some of the intensity and emotion from the original mini series and the first season that I felt has been missing for a while.

Fitting end considering how bad most TV show endings are. For it's flaws I didn't feel pissed like the end of the Soprano's.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

awdpaul said:


> (...) I don't really care if Ron Moore made his own cameo. It's not like they had him actually play God and make a speech.(...)


I know you're being literal, in other words no he did not literally play the character of God and did not speak lines, but in fact that is more or less what he did throughout the series metaphorically. He molded and shaped every character's destiny. That's why I'm so disappointed with the copout of "It's God's will" because everything in the series is "God's will" if you remember that Ron Moore is the God of the BSG universe.

I would have also been fine without the last little bit, and I don't think it added a lot.

I will say this, especially to my friend phrelin... it's been a long time since I was so passionately unhappy about any series, which does at least mean that it was good television. I suppose by not wrapping all the explanations in a little bow, it was encouraging discussion, but what can I say? The show worked so hard _not_ to be lazy, only to leave the audience hanging on some of the really key plot points.


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## Tinymon (Sep 21, 2007)

"I was put off by the cameo of Ron Moore as well, but I would say its a deserved cameo, the guy did come up with a good series, and some of his ld ST:TNG episodes are fav's of mine, so I think he earned a few seconds of face time in the final run."

I thought it was well done. In the style of Hitchcock. It was probably missed by 90% of the viewers who don't know what RMoore looks like...Even if they do watch the vanity card at the end.


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## Charise (Jan 25, 2004)

Sorry, I was disappointed in the last episode too. My hopes weren't too high though after the last few weeks.

Any piece of fiction is the writer's will, and a good piece of fiction concludes the storylines or at least tells us why they are unimportant or the most important. Throwing in Hera's so-called importance was unbelievable for several reasons. If she died so young, with whom did she mate? And the settlers didn't keep any technology to use her DNA or genes in other ways. Why couldn't any of the others who settled on Earth have been the mitochondrial Eve? It just seemed very unsatisfying to throw that in at the end with the silly piece between Baltar and #6. Surely this should have been a major plotpoint as we spent years being told of her importance.

However, I did enjoy elements of the ending, particularly the "opera house" chase. That showed the imagination that I was expecting for other storyline conclusions, and it was filmed beautifully too.


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## awdpaul (Nov 28, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I know you're being literal, in other words no he did not literally play the character of God and did not speak lines, but in fact that is more or less what he did throughout the series metaphorically. He molded and shaped every character's destiny. That's why I'm so disappointed with the copout of "It's God's will" because everything in the series is "God's will" if you remember that Ron Moore is the God of the BSG universe.


I get what you are saying in regards to him being in a sense The God of the BSG universe. And I don't necessarily disagree with the feeling he was a bit cavalier with using his ability as God under the pretense of "Gods Will". I just wasn't highly bothered by it, and despite the use of that, I wasn't bothered at all by his physical presence in a cameo - even if that's what they meant by it.

But then again, I was just glad he didn't go Soprano's on us, so maybe I'm letting him off too easily.


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## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ... the whole thing was ruined when "angel six" and "angel gaius" were talking in New York City and one of them said something like "(God) doesn't like that name." That, combined with Mr. Moore's cameo, led me to the following framework:
> 
> Mr. Moore created BSG, so he is, in effect, God. But he doesn't like to be called that.


Without recognizing Moore's cameo, my first reaction to the "He doesn't like being called that" line was that "God" is Ron Moore. If so, that reduces the whole series to a bad joke.

So, considering that I liked the series (and the final episode( while I was watching it, I've decided not to over analyze it. 

-- Roger


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## elaclair (Jun 18, 2004)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I will say this, especially to my friend phrelin... it's been a long time since I was so passionately unhappy about any series, which does at least mean that it was good television. I suppose by not wrapping all the explanations in a little bow, it was encouraging discussion, but what can I say? The show worked so hard _not_ to be lazy, only to leave the audience hanging on some of the really key plot points.


Stuart I think you've hit the nail on the head for me about BSG. In spite of Ron Moore's, uh, lack luster (at times) handling of the show, it's still been the best and most discussion-worthy series on TV in recent history. I'll take a show that's worth *****ing about over a show I could care less about any day.


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## DarkSkies (Nov 30, 2007)

jadebox said:


> Without recognizing Moore's cameo, my first reaction to the "He doesn't like being called that" line was that "God" is Ron Moore. If so, that reduces the whole series to a bad joke.


The actual line was, "*It* doesn't like being called that." I commented earlier on this, but no one took up the point. This is the first time I ever recall the "one true god" being referred to as an "it". It was deliberate, but I don't understand the significance of it.


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

'IT' meaning Cthulhu?


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## FogCutter (Nov 6, 2006)

I enjoyed the series greatly, but if I were to offer a criticism, it would be that Moore overused deus ex machina -- too many things happened because there was this unseen force affecting the course of events. This happens when the writer becomes bigger than his editors. A good problem for him to have.

The heavy use of flashbacks was almost distracting, but he was setting the stage for Caprica. Prequils are tough sells. Just have to wait and see. 

But he took the story several quantums beyond Glen Larson's disco space opera which ran out of material in the first episode and lost its mind completely in the second, and gave me some fine entertainment. 

Great fun. 

Can't wait for the Bluray boxed set. 

Anybody want to buy a used copy the first season on HDDVD?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

In passing, this episode was seen live by 2.4 million, the most-watched "Galactica" in more than three years. This was reported in several sites and comes from a "siffee channel" news release.


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## frederic1943 (Dec 2, 2006)

DarkSkies said:


> The actual line was, "*It* doesn't like being called that." I commented earlier on this, but no one took up the point. This is the first time I ever recall the "one true god" being referred to as an "it". It was deliberate, but I don't understand the significance of it.


I think it was to indicate that "the one true god" is not an anthropomorphic entity. It's not Human or Cylon. It's not a sexual being so it's an "It" rather than a He or She.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Wire Paladin said:


> Well the series is over. Some questions were answered and others weren't. I had hope for a home run ending like that of Newhart and not a disappointing ending like that of Mash. It's somewhere in between.


I didn't like the ending at all... In fact I'll go as far as saying I liked how St. Elsewhere ended better...



Wire Paladin said:


> [*]All the flashbacks. Some weren't needed (not sure what Laura's or Adama's added to story)


I'm not convinced Adama's was a flashBACK. if it was a flashBACK why was one of the questions "Are you a cylon?"? If it were a flashBACK the person asking the questions wouldn't have had to ask because they were all toasters back then.



Wire Paladin said:


> [*]Calvin killing himself. Too easy


You mean Cavil?



Wire Paladin said:


> [*]Moral at the end - This could be us


This irked me more than anything... Call the original BSG what you will, campy, silly, stupid, etc... But it wasn't a vehicle for the writer to use to force his religious and environmental beliefs down the viewer's throat.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I may feel different after I have digested it for a few days, but here's my initial take...
> 
> the whole thing was ruined when "angel six" and "angel gaius" were talking in New York City and one of them said something like "(God) doesn't like that name." That, combined with Mr. Moore's cameo, led me to the following framework:
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more.

I just finished watching the episode about an hour ago and my blood is still boiling. I hated, yes hated, the ending [more accurately this season all together] and I don't see that changing.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Wire Paladin said:


> Yeah, I wonder about what the job is, too. I would have much preferred seeing what the job is instead of watching Adama puke. Seemed like he was being forced to take it. Perhaps this will be explained later.


Where?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I would have been less disappointed if I'd never watched this final half-season.


I couldn't agree more.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

V'ger;2038525 said:


> I question why the Cylons took one of Kara's ovaries during the siege at new Caprica and it was never used as a plot element again.


There are tons of things like this that we saw early on that were never ever mentioned again. It's as if Ron Moore saw the episodes and then changed his mind on how things would go and just negated tons of stuff.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Indiana627 said:


> I'm still unclear of what happened to the original Earth they found in the beginning of this season in January. Obviously it was nuked, but by who? And who originally settled it: the 13th tribe of humans or Cylons? And if Cylons, does that mean the 13th tribe was always Cylons? And why did all the tribes leave Kobol to settle on new worlds? Did the humans on Kobol create Cylons, who then rebelled and destroyed Kobol, forcing both sides to flee into the galaxy to find new worlds to live on, only to have the same thing happen again of their worlds being destroyed by themselves and their creations?


Come up with your own explanation here because we'll never get one from Ron Moore. It's yet another example of a storyline he abandoned.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

armophob said:


> What was that ad for a BSG show coming this spring or summer? It was not Caprica. Something about the rise of the machines.


It's where we might finally found out what "they have a plan" means.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

ok, I'm done ranting I guess...

Needless to say I'm pretty upset how the last half of this year has gone. Ron Moore RUINED this show all because he wanted to focus on "Caprica" to sell it to Siffy.

Let's just hope the rumor going around that Glen A. Larson is so PO'd at what Ron Moore did to his show that he's making a new movie is true!


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## Getteau (Dec 20, 2007)

I’m still on the fence for whether I liked it or not. I’ll probably have to watch it again to see. After the past 3 weeks, anything would have seemed excellent. I know some of my disappointment is because the series is over.

Flashbacks
I agree with the others, Adama and Roslin’s flashbacks were a waste of time. Who cares that Adama had a job interview before he decided to stay on with Galactica, got drunk in a strip club with Tigh and then puked all over the street. For Roslin, why was it important for me to see Roslin after she had sex with one of her students? She was the secretary of education, no one respected her because of it at the beginning of the show and she grew into a leader. Did I need to see anything from before? I also could have done without the whole Lee/pigeon thing; but I guess that would have upset the artsy/fartsy folks that wanted some scenes with some deep symbolic meaning. The only flashback that made any sense was Anders. Even then, I could have done without that one and not missed a thing. As I think back on it, I don’t think the flashbacks did anything but add 2 hours of filler to a 3 hour episode.

Similarities to other shows
Was it me, or did the ending seem like the ending in Return of the King. It just kept going and going and going. Every time a scene wrapped up, I thought, OK, this is it. Then I got another sappy good-bye scene. The music also sounded a lot like the music at the end of Return of the King. Granted, I’m not a big classical fan, so pretty much all string music sounds the same to me.

Roslin’s death – All I could think of was Trinity’s death at the end of Matrix Revolutions. I was almost to the point of yelling at the TV, “die already, I’m sick of your character and I want to see what everyone else is doing.”

Adama’s scene where he is sitting by himself talking about the land – That was straight out of Highlander (I’m sure others have done something similar, but when I see that type of scene, all I can think of is Duncan MacLeod, Highlander and his bonny Heather.

Other questions/comments
Where were the Leoben’s during the battle? He showed up at the end, but missed the entire fight. Cavil’s ending was just stupid. It was almost like they had no idea what to do with him, so they said, let’s have him shoot himself because that makes so much more sense than him getting shot during the fight with everyone else. It may have been me, but every time I saw Angle Baltar and Six, I expected Starbuck to pop into the scene and say “hey guys, what’s up?” Kind of like they did with Boomer at the end of the first episode. Finally, poor Gaeta, if he had waited another month, he could have been Admiral.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Getteau said:


> (...) Finally, poor Gaeta, if he had waited another month, he could have been Admiral.


Even more ironic if you watched the webisodes before the final episodes, and realized that Gaeta and Hoshi were romantically linked.


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## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

DarkSkies said:


> The actual line was, "*It* doesn't like being called that." I commented earlier on this, but no one took up the point. This is the first time I ever recall the "one true god" being referred to as an "it". It was deliberate, but I don't understand the significance of it.


EDIT: I went and watched the end again last night .... I was wrong. He does say "It" not "He."

-- Roger


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Put me down in the generally happy and satisfied column as to how they ended the show. I'm with a lot of other people in agreeing that the flashbacks didn't really add much but with the actual way they ended the story i'm ok with. They seemed to do a pretty good job of following the underlying story that was there from the original show even if they completely changed how it was dressed up. After all the original show did start with a voice over in the opening sequencing talking about how "life here began out there". So yeah nice little tidy bow they used to tie it all up.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

Getteau said:


> Cavil's ending was just stupid. It was almost like they had no idea what to do with him, so they said, let's have him shoot himself because that makes so much more sense than him getting shot during the fight with everyone else.


Moore said this was actually Dean Stockwell's idea.



> Moore: Cavil killing himself came from Dean Stockwell, to be honest. As scripted, in that climactic battle in CIC, Tigh was going to grab Cavil and fling him over the edge of the upper level, and he was going to fall to his death. Dean called me himself and said, "I just really think that in that moment, Cavil would realize the jig is up and it's all hopeless and just put a gun in his mouth and shoot himself." And I just said, "Okay."
> 
> http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2009/03/battlestar_galactica_ronald_d.html


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Almost all of my issues with the show have been discussed, so the only thing I can add is my sadness that it may be a long time before I see another SciFi show of such quality, from the production values to the writing to the acting. It will be missed, even if it went out with somewhat more of a whimper than a bang...


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## rustynails (Apr 24, 2008)

I liked the last show but I'm glad its over with because I found this show hard to keep up with. It wasn't my favorite show but I watched every episode this season. I agree that the flashbacks were useless.


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## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

rustynails said:


> I liked the last show but I'm glad its over with because I found this show hard to keep up with. It wasn't my favorite show but I watched every episode this season. I agree that the flashbacks were useless.


I liked the flashbacks, but don't think they really added anything to the story.

I wonder if they were done to use some of the BSG budget to create sets and CGI for the Caprica series?

-- Roger


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## koji68 (Jun 21, 2004)

I just watched the final episode and loved it.

If you have never watched Babylon 5 give it a try on DVD. 

The same space epic genre but with better writing and better all around story, IMHO of course 

Comparing B5 to BSG, B5 was written all at once before starting to film. The story flows more smoothly without what seems to be artificial twists to complete the story in a way that the writer didn't even expected when the series started.


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