# Update on the New DirecTV HD DVR....



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Okay... I know the title got you all in a tissy...
But I just to this email...
Not from my contact at DirecTV, but DirecTV themselves
"DirecTV Customer Service"

Here is the PDF:

Nothing really "new" about it....
But intresting none the less...
Earl


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## Questioner (Mar 31, 2006)

Fall = December for directv


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## Rpbertxyz (Feb 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... I know the title got you all in a tissy...
> But I just to this email...
> Not from my contact at DirecTV, but DirecTV themselves
> "DirecTV Customer Service"
> ...


I talked to technical support on Wednesday night and I asked him about a date for the HR20. He said it was scheduled to be in August or early September, but now all bets are off. They will not even acknowledge a date at this time. How true this is, I don't have a clue, just what was said.

Bob H.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

August and September still corresponds to the information that I get from my contact.


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## shaun-ohio (Aug 24, 2002)

when is that new hd tivo supposed to come out? i have contacted customer service on tivo about it, and they dont have an answer yet either, its supposed to be a series3, wonder if they will beat directv to the draw?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Series 3 is rumored to be released this year...
But is also expected to be a fairly expensive unit...


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## ejhuzy (Jun 19, 2006)

Seeing the PDF file made me think of something. When the HR20 is recording HD off OTA, how much space will that take up on the hard drive? The PDF states the HR20 can record up to 50 hrs of MPEG-4 HD, but only 30 of MPEG-2. So what is the OTA stored as?

I've been holding off getting the "free" HR10 because I just don't think it holds enough (I know I can upgrade it) and because it doesn't have 6.2. My current box is a DirecTivo w/100 hrs and 6.2. I just won't go back to the 3.x.x software.

Thanks...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

OTA is MPEG-2


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## smimi10 (May 22, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... I know the title got you all in a tissy...
> But I just to this email...
> Not from my contact at DirecTV, but DirecTV themselves
> "DirecTV Customer Service"


Thanks for posting that, Earl. Interesting that they are providing these updates to the selected few. 

I'm really on the fence right now about waiting for the HR20, hoping that my HR10-250 gets the 6.2 update, or switching to E* and getting a ViP622.

I'm probably spending more time reading the forums on each than I am watching.


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## steff3 (Jun 12, 2006)

smimi10 said:


> Thanks for posting that, Earl. Interesting that they are providing these updates to the selected few.
> 
> I'm really on the fence right now about waiting for the HR20, hoping that my HR10-250 gets the 6.2 update, or switching to E* and getting a ViP622.
> 
> I'm probably spending more time reading the forums on each than I am watching.


LOL! Me too :lol:


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

I'm not looking forward to the new HD DVR. I'm hoping it keeps being delayed. 

The only thing is I know at the same time it will probably delay more national HD channels, for I don't think they can fit anymore in MPEG2.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mika911 said:


> I'm not looking forward to the new HD DVR. I'm hoping it keeps being delayed.
> 
> The only thing is I know at the same time it will probably delay more national HD channels, for I don't think they can fit anymore in MPEG2.


As soon as they turn off the West Coast network feeds they should be able to add a few more nationals under MPEG-2.


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## uncrules (Dec 20, 2005)

I hope this thing is out by the time locals are turned on in my market, Greensboro, NC sometime this fall. That way I can upgrade everything at one time. Get the new dish (hopefully it will be the Slimline by then), a HR20-250 for the living room and an H20 for the bedroom.


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> As soon as they turn off the West Coast network feeds they should be able to add a few more nationals under MPEG-2.


Are they for sure going to do this? If so, when? (As in regards to shut off west coast distant HDs)?


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

Can you still record OTA HD with this?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

LA MPEG-2 info was posted here.

Yes, the HR10 can record OTA HD signals. It has two OTA tuners and two SAT tuners.


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## Questioner (Mar 31, 2006)

Yes.


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## stuart628 (Jul 8, 2004)

are you guys sure about the OTA? I am not doubting, its just the Pdf states nothing, only it recieves Directv stuff! also the HR10-250 is getting the 6.x series update sometime soon!


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## AnonomissX (Jun 29, 2006)

Wow. Last I had heard it was "end of summer 2006". Now they are saying "Fall 2006", which could mean ....anything. I really hate Directv not giving a better timeframe or a better idea of the cost to "upgrade" if a customer goes with the hr10-250 now, and is waiting to get the hr20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I can confirm that there will be an OTA connector on the HR20.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> August and September still corresponds to the information that I get from my contact.


And you'll cling to that in spite of the official press document stating October or later?


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## stuart628 (Jul 8, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can confirm that there will be an OTA connector on the HR20.


Thanks earl! I am still new to directv, only a week old


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

shaun-ohio said:


> when is that new hd tivo supposed to come out? i have contacted customer service on tivo about it, and they dont have an answer yet either, its supposed to be a series3, wonder if they will beat directv to the draw?


For DirecTV customers, it doesn't matter when the Series 3 unit is released because it won't do HD with DirecTV. The Series 3 is OTA and Cablecard _ONLY_.

When you get down to the nitty gritty, everyone beat both TiVo and DirecTV to a fully capable HD DVR.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

mika911 said:


> The only thing is I know at the same time it will probably delay more national HD channels, for I don't think they can fit anymore in MPEG2.


More channels are waiting for two, as yet unlaunched, satellites. The HR20 should be ready in plenty of time for the national content. Those who don't have OTA HD access will continue to be confounded.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> When you get down to the nitty gritty, everyone beat both TiVo and DirecTV to a fully capable HD DVR.


In what way wasn't the Tivo powered HR10 fully capable when it was released? Even then beating any other SAT or cable provider. Dual HD Sat and dual OTA tuners.

If you're referring to the current MPEG4 situation with DTV, yes I agree. Shame on DTV for their lack of planning and vision with this whole Tivo/NDS mess they created solely due to greed.


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## uncrules (Dec 20, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can confirm that there will be an OTA connector on the HR20.


Will it have dual OTA tuners?


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> LA MPEG-2 info was posted here.
> .


I don't think that means they are pulling the MPEG 2 LA Distants. They are pulling it for people who now have locals available. I'd suspect they may keep the MPEG 2 distant a while longer, for all those on the west coast who get them and have no other networks available OTA or through DirecTV.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mika911 said:


> I don't think that means they are pulling the MPEG 2 LA Distants. They are pulling it for people who now have locals available. I'd suspect they may keep the MPEG 2 distant a while longer, for all those on the west coast who get them and have no other networks available OTA or through DirecTV.


What's the difference? Those in the LA market get the same channels as those with the west coast distance feeds. There isn't a separate set of feeds for LA and west coast distants.

I see this as DTV shutting down west coast (The LA DMA will now all be on their MPEG4 channels) and anyone that still is allowed to receive distant feeds will now only get east coast.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

uncrules said:


> Will it have dual OTA tuners?


I don't have confirmation on that yet...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> In what way wasn't the Tivo powered HR10 fully capable when it was released? Even then beating any other SAT or cable provider. Dual HD Sat and dual OTA tuners.


The HR10 was capable of delivering everything that DirecTV offered at the time. A few months later, it was _unannounced_ that the HR10 wasn't going to be able to do the "interactive" stuff.

The DishPlayer 921 had been introduced by E* a few months previous: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=21399. The 921 wasn't capable of interactive stuff either.

Both Time Warner and Comcast released their HD DVRs in early 2004.


> If you're referring to the current MPEG4 situation with DTV, yes I agree. Shame on DTV for their lack of planning and vision with this whole Tivo/NDS mess they created solely due to greed.


I'm of a mind that DirecTV thought that they could improve on the DirecTiVo. In some cases, they have and in others, they have failed... miserably.


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> What's the difference? Those in the LA market get the same channels as those with the west coast distance feeds. There isn't a separate set of feeds for LA and west coast distants.
> 
> I see this as DTV shutting down west coast (The LA DMA will now all be on their MPEG4 channels) and anyone that still is allowed to receive distant feeds will now only get east coast.


Problem is those who get distant HDs are only allowed west or east, whichever they fall into (note at one time they did get east and west but they stopped that last year). Now if you're in the west you get LA and if you're in the east you get NY.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mika911 said:


> Problem is those who get distant HDs are only allowed west or east, whichever they fall into (note at one time they did get east and west but they stopped that last year). Now if you're in the west you get LA and if you're in the east you get NY.


I was suprised by the other thread that they were planning on shuting those down this quickly. I would guess the plan is that everyone will now receive east cost. Has anyone that gets west coast networks been told that will change?

Now maybe that was a letter just to Bill and they're just shuting down his.


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I was suprised by the other thread that they were planning on shuting those down this quickly. I would guess the plan is that everyone will now receive east cost. Has anyone that gets west coast networks been told that will change?
> 
> Now maybe that was a letter just to Bill and they're just shuting down his.


Yes, we shall see. I get 1 HD network out of Los Angeles (distant the only one I qualify for), and they have made no indication that I'll lose it anytime soon.

I think that letter was just for Bill because locals are available to him in HD. However, I could be wrong. 

I do think it makes sense in a way to clear them and make room for national cable HD channels that all HD subscribers can enjoy instead of a very select few who are using the distant HD networks. However, at the same time, as someone who knows it's nice to have access to distants sometimes, I feel some pull that way too. We shall see. I think pushing everyone to east distants (if allowed by laws) would be a good solution because you wouldn't drop those on the west into having nothing, and then you could add 3 or 4 channels for everyone.


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## bbq-allstar (Jun 29, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> What's the difference? Those in the LA market get the same channels as those with the west coast distance feeds. There isn't a separate set of feeds for LA and west coast distants.
> 
> I see this as DTV shutting down west coast (The LA DMA will now all be on their MPEG4 channels) and anyone that still is allowed to receive distant feeds will now only get east coast.


I lost my WEST HD DNS feeds 2 weeks ago due to programming errors when the 13 other HD markets were launched on June 26th. I live in Northern California - where my locals with NEVER be HD. I received waivers 4 years ago to receive the West DNS feeds.

DirecTV has worked out the problem they had when they accidently cut off HD DNS (both East & West) to a few thousand customers on June 26th. CSRs at the HD DNS Eligibility Group told me that the MPEG2 format of both the East and West feeds will be around for years to come...not until the entire MPEG2 stream is cut off...which will be years since a few million customers own MPEG2 HD receivers.

The feeds are only being turned off to folks whose "HD Locals" are now being activated...forcing them to buy a MPEG4 receiver. Only 55% of the Country can currently receive HD Locals through DirecTV. Once that hits 95%, those of us in the last 5% will still receive the HD DNS feeds as long as we qualify (waivers).

In short, the HD DNS feeds will remain in effect until the MPEG2 stream is completely shutoff.


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## mika911 (May 2, 2006)

bbq-allstar, - I tend to believe that information you were told. It makes sense to me that they won't remove programming already being sent out.


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## tbrummel (Jul 12, 2006)

harsh said:


> And you'll cling to that in spite of the official press document stating October or later?


 Does that mean the HR20 will be selling at retail prices in September?


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## tbrummel (Jul 12, 2006)

I've been a Directv customer since 1994 and I've been waiting for something like this for a long time.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

harsh said:


> And you'll cling to that in spite of the official press document stating October or later?


Sorry... didn't see your response earlier.

I do believe what my contacts has told me, but that was before the email document... and I haven't gotten an update in a few weeks.

Right now, I do believe in the August "Commercial Introduction"
Does that mean it is for sale in August? I am not sure.

The email did say "estimated" Fall 2006


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The email did say "estimated" Fall 2006


If the receiver were going to be announced this Summer, there would certainly be a specific date known by now. The fact that Fall 2006 is an "estimate" is a little spooky, but I'm sure they don't want to issue any guarantees until it is a certainty.

They've already waited waaaay too long to offer the HR20 for the theorized $1,000 purchase price point. The competition is offering theirs for $499. The lease entry price of $299 as suggested in the Dealer memo is also under pressure.

To be competitive with cable, DirecTV _must_ get more customers changed (note that I didn't say "upgraded") to the MPEG4 platforms. To remain competitive with E*, they need to get more customers to the MPEG4 platforms. There's a whole lot riding on the transition.


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## heathramos (Dec 19, 2005)

this thread has me thinking about changing my set up.

I guess long term, I will eventually switch out my two hr10-250's for the directv branded hd dvrs and they will eventually get the CW as well as the other locals (not to mention national hd channels in mpeg4) and I won't need an antenna.

the question, of course, is how long before it happens, how much will it bug me to wait with my current set up and how much will it cost to make changes.

I have an indoor antenna right now that doesn't work that well. what i really need to do is put one on the roof or maybe in the attic. this would require money and a lot of effort (crawling a long way in the attic). also, I only have two lines going to each tv right now and I am using diplexors for the OTA signal. I would really like a better set up by Sept (football starts as well as the fall season for tv).

I could try putting in a cm4228 in the attic but if I get the new receivers by Sept, will it be worth it just to get the CW off that antenna? Also, there will be the diplexer issue, since I can't use it with the HR20 and I don't want wires running down my walls. All that and I don't know how well it would work in the attic.

who knows...


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## Wayne D Johnson (Jul 16, 2006)

heathramos said:


> this thread has me thinking about changing my set up.
> 
> I guess long term, I will eventually switch out my two hr10-250's for the directv branded hd dvrs and they will eventually get the CW as well as the other locals (not to mention national hd channels in mpeg4) and I won't need an antenna.
> 
> ...


I griped loud enough and a "specialist" from DirecTV phoned me and said the new HD-DVR will be available at the end of September. All these postponements are becoming borderline fraud. In April, a "specialist" said June for sure. I should have switched to Dish then, but I've got a an HR10-250 I'd like DirecTV credit for!


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## adam1115 (Dec 16, 2003)

Wayne D Johnson said:


> I griped loud enough and a "specialist" from DirecTV phoned me and said the new HD-DVR will be available at the end of September. All these postponements are becoming borderline fraud. In April, a "specialist" said June for sure. I should have switched to Dish then, but I've got a an HR10-250 I'd like DirecTV credit for!


FRAUD? Certainly they are not delaying the HR20 on PURPOSE... I'm sure they wish it were out....


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

A lot of people would feel it was more fraudulent to flood the market with units too soon based on someone's estimate of when they would be ready and then have thousands of units in the field that really weren't ready for release yet.

Thank God for Sunday Ticket being the factor that made my decision easy for me - I would hate my decision of who I chose as a provider and when I joined to be based on whatever equipment they were supposed to have at the time I wanted something. Makes it easy for me to just be content with what I have and gives me patience to wait for these other things as D* feels they are ready for the market.


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## carlsbad_bolt_fan (May 18, 2004)

JLucPicard said:


> A lot of people would feel it was more fraudulent to flood the market with units too soon based on someone's estimate of when they would be ready and then have thousands of units in the field that really weren't ready for release yet.
> 
> Thank God for Sunday Ticket being the factor that made my decision easy for me - I would hate my decision of who I chose as a provider and when I joined to be based on whatever equipment they were supposed to have at the time I wanted something. Makes it easy for me to just be content with what I have and gives me patience to wait for these other things as D* feels they are ready for the market.


I'm actually thinking about getting the minimum D* offering just so I can keep NFL ST and going to E* for the rest of my HD service. My in-laws just got theirs installed and they love it.

I have to question what D* was thinking regarding the whole MP4 rollout. Did they not think about those of us with HD DVR's? When you're beaten to the market, and beaten badly at that, by your major competitor, one has to question D*'s thinking.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

carlsbad_bolt_fan said:


> I'm actually thinking about getting the minimum D* offering just so I can keep NFL ST and going to E* for the rest of my HD service. My in-laws just got theirs installed and they love it.
> 
> I have to question what D* was thinking regarding the whole MP4 rollout. Did they not think about those of us with HD DVR's? When you're beaten to the market, and beaten badly at that, by your major competitor, one has to question D*'s thinking.


I'm a little confused by your post. If by "major competitor" you're referring to E*, what are they supposed to do? Not upgrade to newer technology (and arguably at this point "industry standard") because someone already has it out there? Not try to prepare themselves to allow expanded offerings to their customers as the broadcast industry catches up with things? (By that I refer to SciFi, FX, RSNs and similar programming providers going to HD broadcasting).

Like I said, I must be missing something in the translation in your post.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl,

Have your contacts mentioned anything about limits on the HR20? Should we be expected to see a limit of 50 SLs and 100 ToDos or has that been overcome?


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

JLucPicard said:


> I'm a little confused by your post. If by "major competitor" you're referring to E*, what are they supposed to do? Not upgrade to newer technology (and arguably at this point "industry standard") because someone already has it out there? Not try to prepare themselves to allow expanded offerings to their customers as the broadcast industry catches up with things? (By that I refer to SciFi, FX, RSNs and similar programming providers going to HD broadcasting).


JL, I guess he's saying D* should have warped time and had all the Spaceways up and broadcasting by now, and rock-solid performing HR20s available to all for no charge...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Earl,
> 
> Have your contacts mentioned anything about limits on the HR20? Should we be expected to see a limit of 50 SLs and 100 ToDos or has that been overcome?


He has been very "mum" on the features of the unit


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## Wayne D Johnson (Jul 16, 2006)

adam1115 said:


> FRAUD? Certainly they are not delaying the HR20 on PURPOSE... I'm sure they wish it were out....


Borderline fraud is when you announce a product that you know you can't deliver with the express purpose of preventing defections to your competitors.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wayne D Johnson said:


> Borderline fraud is when you announce a product that you know you can't deliver with the express purpose of preventing defections to your competitors.


Who says they can't deliver it? Delays in production doesn't equate to not able to deliver. If that where true almost every software and most hardware companies would be brought up on fraud charges every day. I mean MS just itself would keep every court in the land busy with just Vista right now.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Who says they can't deliver it? Delays in production doesn't equate to not able to deliver. If that where true almost every software and most hardware companies would be brought up on fraud charges every day. I mean MS just itself would keep every court in the land busy with just Vista right now.


I'd guess the delays are in working out the final kinks in the OS. I really doubt they want another R15 fiasco on their hands. Every time they find someing (er...we find something) wrong with the R15 they need to check and fix their code also.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I'd guess the delays are in working out the final kinks in the OS. I really doubt they want another R15 fiasco on their hands. Every time they find someing (er...we find something) wrong with the R15 they need to check and fix their code also.


Yes I agree with that, I would rather see a stable product come out then a rushed product.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Do we know that the r15 and hr20 use the same software?  I thought I had read that separate teams are working on the different boxes, and that although the gui will look the same, the underlying code might not be. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

ad301 said:


> Do we know that the r15 and hr20 use the same software? I thought I had read that separate teams are working on the different boxes, and that although the gui will look the same, the underlying code might not be. Maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part.


That is what I have been told.

It is not R15 software on the HR20. They will "share" the same GUI, but the code base is independent of one another.


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Thanks Earl, I thought I remembered you saying that earlier.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is what I have been told.
> 
> It is not R15 software on the HR20. They will "share" the same GUI, but the code base is independent of one another.


Independent to what point? Any idea when R15 code went left and HR20 code went right? No political reference there.

Base question, is the HR20 based on XTV DVRs as the R15 is?


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## ad301 (Mar 30, 2004)

Yeah, it's impossible for us to know the implications of different code at this point. Could be good for the hr20 (and for the r15 via reverse trickle-down) or it could be bad. Time will tell. I'm hoping against hope that when the hr20 is released, it will be at a much more advanced stage of development than the r15 was on release.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I don't know.. and probably will never know to what extent the HR20 is based off the R15.

I have asked regarding the XTV DVR -> R15, and told that was incorrect.
The R15 isn't based off the XTV DVR platform...

(I've been told what is is based off, but I haven't gotten "permission" to say that is)


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ad301 said:


> I'm hoping against hope that when the hr20 is released, it will be at a much more advanced stage of development than the r15 was on release.


...or the R15 is now?

Realistically, an HR20 released now with the same problems the R15 has..(limits and search bugs)..IMO...could be the death of DTV as a DVR/OS provider.

While the HR10 doesn't receive MPEG4, it does the job of recording what you tell it to record.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know.. and probably will never know to what extent the HR20 is based off the R15.
> 
> I have asked regarding the XTV DVR -> R15, and told that was incorrect.
> The R15 isn't based off the XTV DVR platform...
> ...


So was the R15 hardware/software developed from scratch?

*EDIT: From your info? I know you only relay what you've been told and what you've been told you can release.*


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

No, the R15 wasn't built entirely from scratch.
It did have an initial starting point.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know.. and probably will never know to what extent the HR20 is based off the R15.
> 
> I have asked regarding the XTV DVR -> R15, and told that was incorrect.
> The R15 isn't based off the XTV DVR platform...


Someone really should tell NDS to stop making material statements to the contrary, then. Perhaps the SEC.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

Is there anything known about the swapout for an HR20? My main question is:

Will the "upgrade" cost be different when swapping a leased H20 vs. a purchased HR10-250?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As of right now, I haven't gotten ANY information relating to the $$$ side of things


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## sojourn (Jan 29, 2004)

First of all Earl, thanks for your support throughout all of the DTV Forums!
Second, is it your understanding that only those folks that have the HR10-250 & 3LNB dish will NOT be cutoff viewing the DNS UNTIL the new HD DVR becomes available to those where HD LIL's are available, OR, are all bets off and the DNS is shutdown regardless of whether or not an "apples for apples" equipment swap has occurred?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As I understand it, if you have the HR10-250 then you have an "argument" to keep the HD-DNS... but it is starting to appear that the networks and "other" parties are really pushing to have the HD-DNS shut down.

So you may not be able to get very far.
If you don't have the HR10-250, you have next to no chance in keeping the HD-DNS turned on (if you are in an area that is being shut down)


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No, the R15 wasn't built entirely from scratch.
> It did have an initial starting point.


Well if its starting point was TiVo, Replay or UTV, it would probably work better. So I would guess a cableco DVR. Either Motorola or SA.:eek2:


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

With this new DVR coming do we know what features it will have or not have when compared to the HR10-250? For example will it have a Season Pass like feature using name based recordings? Does it have network support built in?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

gquiring said:


> With this new DVR coming do we know what features it will have or not have when compared to the HR10-250? For example will it have a Season Pass like feature using name based recordings? Does it have network support built in?


It should be pretty much exactly like the R-15, the non-Tivo SD DVR.
Yes it has season pass feature.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is what I have been told.
> 
> It is not R15 software on the HR20. They will "share" the same GUI, but the code base is independent of one another.


Well that doesn't make sense right from the get go. I'm not doubting that you are right in this Earl as I know you report your information to the best of your ability. However, I do hope that you're wrong on this one.

It makes no sense for DirecTV/NDS not to write a code base between their new DVRs that shares as much in common as is possible. If they are truly going to be working with two or more completely different code bases for their DVR product(s), then they are looking at a maintenance nightmare. Under a scenario where their development team is mediocre at best and uses the Waterfall method of developing software, this situation can turn ugly really fast.

That's my 2 cents, people might or might not agree with it, but time will tell. If the software turns out to work well, then great, but if the software is anywhere near as limiting or bug-ridden as the R15 software is - then I hope that DirecTV/NDS pays in terms of customer loss.


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

I have not followed any of the non Tivo DVR's from D*. I still have two HDVR2's and one HR10-250. So the R15 is not great? What is it missing? My gripes on the HR10 is the guide speed, 2 minute lag when you press the record button, audio hicups and black screen blips when recording HD content.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

gquiring said:


> I have not followed any of the non Tivo DVR's from D*. I still have two HDVR2's and one HR10-250. So the R15 is not great? What is it missing? My gripes on the HR10 is the guide speed, 2 minute lag when you press the record button, audio hicups and black screen blips when recording HD content.


I have both an HDVR2 and an R15 (plus an H20). The R15's response time (particularly the guide) is faster than the HDVR2. It operates differently but does most of the same functions. Once I got used to the differences, the only thing I really miss are the wishlists. DTV added a 30-second skip recently, but it is more like 30 seconds of fast forward, not instantaneous like the HDVR2 (after you do the select-play-select-3-0-select hack). The R15 has caller-ID. It is quieter than my HDVR2.

Some folks apparently have had problems with the R15, but mine has been a solid performer for the 5 months I have had it.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Reading up on the HR20-700, made me think back to the announcement of the "Home Media Center" by D* over a year ago now.

Is this what the HR20 is supposed to be? It was supposed to have digital music, photos, etc... It was a big reason I stayed with D* back then and bought an HR10-250 in the first place. I now have HD in several rooms in my house, but there is no "Home Media Center" from which I can "Schedule and view recordings from any room" as described in this January 2005 press release.

I looked up the Press Release on D*'s site:
h-t-t-p://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=660038&highlight=

They said it would be available at the end of 2005?!?!?
Quote: "The DIRECTV Home Media Center, which will be available by the end of this year, will allow for networking throughout the house. DIRECTV customers with the Home Media Center will be able to share, move and view content from room to room."

I mean, talk about over-promising and under-delivering...

-h


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

i dont recall u posting that pdf on tcf earl...i think you should...would drive em nuts if you didnt already post it


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

No the HR20 and the HMC are two different products.

The HMC was indirectly referenced in January 2006's presentation.

Something happened in 2005 (namely the company building the HMC was bought by motorola... ucentric), and other xyz's....

All I know is the HMC is still a product in development. The only details I know about it is that they are planning for MANY tuners in the core unit (9 IIRC) but it has been a while since I talked to my contact regarding HMC.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

newsposter said:


> i dont recall u posting that pdf on tcf earl...i think you should...would drive em nuts if you didnt already post it


I thought about it...but a few reasons:

1) It doesn't relate to TiVo, and I am trying to respect as much as possible the admins decision to keep the non-tivo product discussion off TCF as possible
2) AT the time I didn't know why I received that email (i know now... insiders have me on their email radar..  ), so since I couldn't tell anyone how to signup to get the monthly updates....
3) Right now... with some people thinking I am fabricating stuff... I don't want to stoke the fire that much, as it certainly would drive them crazy.

I'll just wait till I can post a link to the HR20 review..


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No the HR20 and the HMC are two different products.
> 
> The HMC was indirectly referenced in January 2006's presentation.
> 
> ...


Ah, I see some mention of a collaboration with Intel on VIIV tech in the January 2006 press releases...

Thanks for the update, Earl!

9 tuners would definately be awesome, from a central 'server' - viewable from multiple rooms, or from a PC, or remote device.

The music and photo sharing is kind of passe now (it was cool when SA Tivo did it, way back when)...I use a mac-mini for that stuff now anyway.

-h


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> The only details I know about it is that they are planning for MANY tuners in the core unit (9 IIRC) but it has been a while since I talked to my contact regarding HMC.


That worries me. You loose that one unit your entire house is without service. If the unit needs to be replaced.....nuff said.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> That worries me. You loose that one unit your entire house is without service. If the unit needs to be replaced.....nuff said.


Very true.. and it would be a concern/risk .... that one would have to keep in mind when diving full tilt into that method.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I don't know.. and probably will never know to what extent the HR20 is based off the R15.
> 
> I have asked regarding the XTV DVR -> R15, and told that was incorrect.
> The R15 isn't based off the XTV DVR platform...
> ...


I know you can't say but if I'd have to guess I'd say the UTV platform. It's just so oddly UTV'ish it isn't funny.

About the HMC, doesn't 9 seem like a weird number? I thought it would be 8 or 10 or is it really 10 but one is for VOD and active? I can't wait to see this product, heck I'd be ok with them dropping the HR20 DVR if it meant they could get the HMC out this year. Also I hope they would be smart enough to build it with removable tuners or sections so that if a pair of tuners goes out you'd be ok and wouldn't lose the whole service like Wolffpack was saying. Kind of like a rack stereo or raid drive so you won't lose service and can swap out sections.


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## mikewolf13 (Jan 31, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> That worries me. You loose that one unit your entire house is without service. If the unit needs to be replaced.....nuff said.


No Worries! Is there some reason you would be wary of the reliability of any DTV hardware?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

double post, sorry.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> About the HMC, doesn't 9 seem like a weird number? I thought it would be 8 or 10 or is it really 10 but one is for VOD and active? I can't wait to see this product, heck I'd be ok with them dropping the HR20 DVR if it meant they could get the HMC out this year.


Ya, 9 tuners seems like a lot of processing power... I wonder how many could record at once? All of them? If they really are going the Intel VIIV route, I guess this could be possible with enough CPU juice (just streaming mpg2/4 direct to the drives, no compression required). I bet the 9 tuners would include the viewable streams in your other rooms too since they wouldn't technically have tuners, so not all available for recording. I'm betting they are years and years away from anything like this anyway, so speculating is as useful as reading their press releases that say "It will be out by the end of the year."

-h


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

Nine tuners!! Would that have some sort of built in multi-switch or will you need nine feeds from the dish?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Other comments that I have gotten for my contact.

The # of cables we will need from dish to box... is going to go down in the future.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Other comments that I have gotten for my contact.
> 
> The # of cables we will need from dish to box... is going to go down in the future.


Ya, that's what I read in some of the early HMC discussions...that the cable from the dish would be just 1 or 2. And the remote terminals would be either coax (to use existing cable in most houses), or Cat5, or even Wireless... How much of that was speculation is unknown, but it seemed like a great thing :lol:

-h


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Very true.. and it would be a concern/risk .... that one would have to keep in mind when diving full tilt into that method.


Single point of failure is just one potential problem with that logic.

The other major problem I see is distribution of content to the slave receivers. Is this to be wireless/wired ethernet? You start 2-3 slaves pulling content from the HMC and anyone's home network will quickly be overcome.

Finally, I don't see how one would expect a slave receiver to provide FF/RR/pause and such without it having it own HD. There's no way I can see a HMC recording up to 9 shows while servicing multiple receivers that is cost effective. If slave units will have HDs, then the additional cost of adding a couple of tuners to the hardware is almost nothing compared to the HD space cost on the HMC.

When I originally heard of this I viewed a HMC as having maybe 4 receivers and the slaves being configured with the same hardware as current R15s. Only difference being that the HMC can instruct each slave what to record and coordinate the availability of tuners within the network and transfer of shows between slaves.

But this is now getting way OT. Perhaps a HMC theory thread is in order.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Let's hold off on the HMC thread for now.
After the HR20 is released... or at least announced...

I will start discussions with my contact about the HMC...


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Single point of failure is just one potential problem with that logic.


I have that now and I suspect most do. My multiswitch is built into the dish, when it goes all my TV's go dark. I had that a couple of years ago, 1 1/2 weeks without service until the head arrived for the dish.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

But the failure rates of the dish and the multiswitch.... are SIGNIFICANTLY lower then any computer/software/harddrive based unit.


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Let's hold off on the HMC thread for now.
> After the HR20 is released... or at least announced...
> 
> I will start discussions with my contact about the HMC...


Ohhh the HR20 is not going to have HMC? It's just a HR10 with Mpeg4. What does the HR20 have? OTA? Will it support external disks?


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

gquiring said:


> Ohhh the HR20 is not going to have HMC? It's just a HR10 with Mpeg4.


Not exactly. The HR10 is TiVo based, the HR20 is based on D*'s wishful thinking that they can make a comparable DVR.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

gquiring said:


> I have that now and I suspect most do. My multiswitch is built into the dish, when it goes all my TV's go dark. I had that a couple of years ago, 1 1/2 weeks without service until the head arrived for the dish.


Not to be negative here, but.....the R15, HR20 and what will become the HMC is all being developed by DTV. To date the R15 is the first child of this process and the R15 hasn't been a "good little child". It's not just hardware failures. While those can happen I'm currently more concerned about DTV software development/testing practices. The R15 gets very testy when it's told to do alot. It responds by hanging or requiring a reset. With, this HMC platform that would require your entire house be without service until the reset completes.

If I look at my R15 being the DTV hub for my house's connection to DTV, it wouldn't be.

On the other hand, dishes, multiswitches and cables rarely go bad. Yes they do, but they don't reset every day or two as the R15 can.

Looking at the entire picture, DTV could have kept the Tivo platform, activated and supported MRV and they would be half way to the HMC right now. In my house, with my DTivo units (not HR10s) I can share all shows between units and I can also run conflict resolution between units so that a tuner on unit B can record a SP from Unit A as Unit A has a conflict. DTV is literally reinventing the wheel/DVR. It really sounds like DTV is reinventing the wheel/DVR even between the R15 and HR20. That process is not economical and I'm sure investors will not allow that to continue.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gquiring said:


> Ohhh the HR20 is not going to have HMC? It's just a HR10 with Mpeg4. What does the HR20 have? OTA? Will it support external disks?


The HR20 will have OTA support.
It also has internal and exteral SATA connectors, so most likely yes... external disks will be supported (eventually).

HR20 will also have the MPEG-4 (as you noted), and the interactive capabilities. It will also support both forms of VOD programming that DirecTV plans to offer, in addition to supporting the DirecTV2Go product when it is launched.

HMC is a completely different system.


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## directvfreak (Feb 1, 2006)

harley3k said:


> I wonder how many could record at once? All of them?
> 
> -h


I don't see how that would be possible. Hard Drives can only write so fast and if too much data is being sent... You seen the problem?


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## directvfreak (Feb 1, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Not to be negative here, but.....the R15, HR20 and what will become the HMC is all being developed by DTV. To date the R15 is the first child of this process and the R15 hasn't been a "good little child". It's not just hardware failures. While those can happen I'm currently more concerned about DTV software development/testing practices. The R15 gets very testy when it's told to do alot. It responds by hanging or requiring a reset. With, this HMC platform that would require your entire house be without service until the reset completes.
> 
> If I look at my R15 being the DTV hub for my house's connection to DTV, it wouldn't be.
> 
> ...


I'd bet that if DirecTv would have stuch with TiVo, the HR20 would already be out. The software has already been created and most of the hardware (the h20 times 2) plus a couple of other things. I think DirecTV would have been far better off with TiVo. However, I do hope the new divice is a success and works out for us all.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HMC: All depends on the harware infrastructures.

There are database out there capable of handling millions of transactions in seconds... There are ways to implement a disk structure that can handle multiple data feeds.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

directvfreak said:


> I'd bet that if DirecTv would have stuch with TiVo, the HR20 would already be out. The software has already been created and most of the hardware (the h20 times 2) plus a couple of other things. I think DirecTV would have been far better off with TiVo. However, I do hope the new divice is a success and works out for us all.


I don't know if it was you over at TCF, or someone else... that I had this discussion with.

You are talking new hardware, new designs, updated components, different code, ect....

If you simply wanted an DirecTV port of the TiVo software to an MPEG4 system... then maybe as you are just talking about changing the tuners and decoding chipsets....

But given the time it has taken to get the Comcast TiVo system, and the Series 3.... I don't think it is fair to say that "If it where Tivo software", we would have an MPEG4 DVR already...

Could it have been possible... sure..
But we will never know.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> HMC: All depends on the harware infrastructures.
> 
> There are database out there capable of handling millions of transactions in seconds... There are ways to implement a disk structure that can handle multiple data feeds.


Sure there are. So you too can center your AV Center around a DTV HMC for the low low up front lease cost of $1500 and a 10 year committment. :lol:

Honestly I thought they were trying to keep these devices at commodity pricing. If you have one piece of hardware with 9 tuners and 2TB of disk, that ain't gonna be cheap.

Kinda like RAID. Reduntant Array of Inexpensive DVRs.


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

directvfreak said:


> I don't see how that would be possible. Hard Drives can only write so fast and if too much data is being sent... You seen the problem?


Well, "this one goes to eleven":

http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/19/snapstreams-godzilla-dvr-11-tuners-1tb-storage-4-000/

Four of them are HD.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Sure there are. So you too can center your AV Center around a DTV HMC for the low low up front lease cost of $1500 and a 10 year committment. :lol:
> 
> Honestly I thought they were trying to keep these devices at commodity pricing. If you have one piece of hardware with 9 tuners and 2TB of disk, that ain't gonna be cheap.
> 
> Kinda like RAID. Reduntant Array of Inexpensive DVRs.


Actually, I wouldn't be too surprised if it was $1500..
And would be exctatic if it was only $1500

heck that would only have been $500 more then the HR10-250?

And 10 years... I don't think I am going anywhere... even though 10 years is a little long for a non-marraige commitment.


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## bidger (Nov 19, 2005)

newsposter said:


> i dont recall u posting that pdf on tcf earl...i think you should...would drive em nuts if you didnt already post it


It's a competing DVR so it wouldn't go over well there. Though they have allowed a 5 page thread on a Dish DVR. Confusing.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

walters said:


> Well, "this one goes to eleven":
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/19/snapstreams-godzilla-dvr-11-tuners-1tb-storage-4-000/
> 
> Four of them are HD.


That is COOL!!!

But at $4,000 that also gives us a good idea what the HMC would cost.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

How 'about we move HMC discuss over here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=614775#post614775?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Looking at the entire picture, DTV could have kept the Tivo platform, activated and supported MRV and they would be half way to the HMC right now.


But they didn't so you either have to get over it or subscribe to cable.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

I'll be a cable customer myself by the Fall. (The TIVO series 3 should be available by then.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Other comments that I have gotten for my contact.
> 
> The # of cables we will need from dish to box... is going to go down in the future.


um, do you mean the Hd receivers and the dvrs will have different cable requirements? I do realize it's good it's going down and not up but some people will 'lose out' because they went thru the hassle of more cable runs already in preparation for it.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

newsposter said:


> um, do you mean the Hd receivers and the dvrs will have different cable requirements? I do realize it's good it's going down and not up but some people will 'lose out' because they went thru the hassle of more cable runs already in preparation for it.


They are trying to make all equipment be able to run multiple feeds over one cable. Yes if you went to the expense of installing 2+ cables to every run it will no longer be needed. Though you could use the extra cable for something else. By friend uses extras to send signals back out to be distributed around the house.


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## Wayne D Johnson (Jul 16, 2006)

harley3k said:


> Reading up on the HR20-700, made me think back to the announcement of the "Home Media Center" by D* over a year ago now.
> 
> Is this what the HR20 is supposed to be? It was supposed to have digital music, photos, etc... It was a big reason I stayed with D* back then and bought an HR10-250 in the first place. I now have HD in several rooms in my house, but there is no "Home Media Center" from which I can "Schedule and view recordings from any room" as described in this January 2005 press release.
> 
> ...


Definitely DIFFERENT products. I've got an Email for DirecTV saying the HMC is still in the works bit there is no projected availability date. The rep that called me and said the H20-250 would be available the end of September, had not even heard of the HMC announcement, however.

As I've said before, DirecTV's product announcements border on fraud. I don't think for a minute that they believed they could deliver either of these two products when they first said they would. They were only trying to avoid customers switching to Dish.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

So no company in the history of "product" announcements, has ever announced a product should be available Day X... and it doesn't comeout till Day Z...

If this was considered fraud... then just about every major company I can think of would be guilty. TiVo (Series 3 was "supposed" to be out this summary), Microsoft (just about every product), Sony (PS3 anyone?), The entire Blu-Ray conglomerate... ect


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

newsposter said:


> um, do you mean the Hd receivers and the dvrs will have different cable requirements? I do realize it's good it's going down and not up but some people will 'lose out' because they went thru the hassle of more cable runs already in preparation for it.


They are not going to lose anything... they are looking at technology that will allow more things on one cable... Ya.. sucks that I will have a lot of extra wires in the wall.... but how often do we see posts from people that can't run an extra wire, or live in a MDU where they only have 1 wire...


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> But they didn't so you either have to get over it or subscribe to cable.


There's nothing to "get over". I was simply pointing out that they already have the building blocks for the HMC yet made the decision to start from scratch. We all can see from experience how well that's worked so far.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Finally, I don't see how one would expect a slave receiver to provide FF/RR/pause and such without it having it own HD. There's no way I can see a HMC recording up to 9 shows while servicing multiple receivers that is cost effective. If slave units will have HDs, then the additional cost of adding a couple of tuners to the hardware is almost nothing compared to the HD space cost on the HMC.


I don't know about that. The VOOM HDC was using thin clients and they where saying that you could play a show/movie across the whole house in sych or have many people access the same movie at different points. They even said you could pause in one room and resume at the same place in another. I really wish VOOM didn't go under because it seemed like they had gotten really close. I wonder what company got that tech and has the rights to it.

EDIT: I just saw the other thread. You can respond over there if you want. Earl if you want you can move this post over there.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I'll just wait till I can post a link to the HR20 review


The way you wrote this ("a link to _the_ HR20 review" instead of "a link to _a_ HR20 review") makes it sound like there already is a review somewhere just waiting to be posted. True?

I've also always had this feeling that you are beta testing the HR20. True? Maybe you've written _the_ review?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

I can say... at this moment, I do not have an HR20 in my possession.


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## pjo1966 (Nov 20, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can say... at this moment, I do not have an HR20 in my possession.


That doesn't mean you *never *had one in your possession...


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I don't know about that. The VOOM HDC was using thin clients and they where saying that you could play a show/movie across the whole house in sych or have many people access the same movie at different points. They even said you could pause in one room and resume at the same place in another. I really wish VOOM didn't go under because it seemed like they had gotten really close. I wonder what company got that tech and has the rights to it.


Yah... I remember seeing a demonstration video for the Voom stuff - it was pretty impressive. I guess it's all gone now?

-h


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I can say... at this moment, I do not have an HR20 in my possession.


Is that beacuase you're at work, and not at home where your HR20 is hooked up in your living room? hehee... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> Yes if you went to the expense of installing 2+ cables to every run it will no longer be needed. Though you could use the extra cable for something else. By friend uses extras to send signals back out to be distributed around the house.


Yep, that's what I do now... have the COAX output go back up into the attic, for distribution into guest rooms and my office... Now if only I had some RF-Remote action, I wouldn't need all the IR Repeaters!

-h


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

You guys are funny....

I emphasize reading what I write for "hidden" messages... 
But in this case... I currenty don't have one on a train, on a plane... I don't have one in my car, I don't have one at the bar.... 

Seriously... I don't have one yet... but I know someone that does..


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are not going to lose anything... they are looking at technology that will allow more things on one cable...


Basically they are catching up to E* which has been stacking multiple sats on a single cable for some time now.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Seriously... I don't have one yet... but I know someone that does..


I am going to put 2 & 2 together and maybe come up with four.

1) You have a nice relationship with a dealer.
2) This dealer helped you get an R15 before almost anybody else for your review over at TCF.
3) This dealer had an HR10-250 a couple of months before they were available.

Did I miss anything?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Actually...

#1: I still have a "relationship" with that dealer, but for various reasons... I can not benefit from that "relationship" as I have in the past.
#2: That would be true
#3: That would be true as well (at least I think it is, I know he got them early, just not who early)

#4: Some newer releationships have turned out very positively...


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## MikeW (May 16, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually...
> 
> #4: Some newer releationships have turned out very positively...


Olsen Twins???


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

No.... And not sure if I could...


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You guys are funny....
> 
> Seriously... I don't have one yet... but I know someone that does..


Ohhhh where are the _spy photos_:eek2:

How about at lease some hints on what it does....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

No spy photos...
You'll get them soon enough 

As for what it does... it records MPEG-4 broadcasts, to a SATA drive.


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## gquiring (Jan 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> No spy photos...
> You'll get them soon enough
> 
> As for what it does... it records MPEG-4 broadcasts, to a SATA drive.


External SATA support? Same cable requirements - each tuner needs it's own feed from the dish?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

If your counting your D* contact as the person you know that has a HR20. I'm not really sure that's fair to say you know someone that has one. Is that like saying you know someone who has VISTA but your really talking about Bill Gates 

Now if it's someone else out there than that would be even better because it would hopefully mean that there is a warehouse out there that has HR20's and they are just waiting to ship them 

Either way it's nice to know that it's out there. Thanks again for the inside info Earl.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> #3: That would be true as well (at least I think it is, I know he got them early, just not who early)


The old thread that had aaron.s's review has been deleted, or at least I can't find it. Just reading through the second thread briefly reminds of the frenzy of the HR10-250 introduction.

So the best I can come up with is that aaron.s's review was prior to 4/6/04(start date of the second thread), and VE shipped the first units on or around 4/22.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Okay... so it doesn't count... guesss I don't know someone..


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... so it doesn't count... guesss I don't know someone..


 :righton: :bowdown: :smoking: :stickman:


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> There's nothing to "get over".


There must be something because not a week goes by that you don't publicly lament the fact that DirecTV chose to go in a direction other than TiVo.


> I was simply pointing out that they already have the building blocks for the HMC yet made the decision to start from scratch.


I've seen no mention of a centralized HD capable live distribution system based on TiVo technology.

TiVo's version of home media involves copying files around while DirecTV's version involves streaming content. There is going to be continuing and increasing pressure from the content providers to do away with TiVo's implementation.


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## DidlySquat (Jun 23, 2006)

harley3k said:


> Yah... I remember seeing a demonstration video for the Voom stuff - it was pretty impressive. I guess it's all gone now?
> 
> -h


The Voom DVR was going to be from UCentric (now Motorola). Isn't this what D* originally annouced as ther solution for HMC?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

DidlySquat said:


> The Voom DVR was going to be from UCentric (now Motorola). Isn't this what D* originally annouced as ther solution for HMC?


If it is then D* took a step in the right direction because the VOOM one was really good (or at least looked really good). I think the video that was out was from on of the E3's and was 15 mins or more and showed you what it did.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

DidlySquat said:


> The Voom DVR was going to be from UCentric (now Motorola). Isn't this what D* originally annouced as ther solution for HMC?


Found it http://www.satelliteguys.us/demo/

DidlySquat your where right it was UCentric, I don't know if they are motorola.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

A few months after the CES announcement UCentric was purchased by Motorola


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

So is possible that D*'s will be similar to the VOOM.


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## Groundhog45 (Nov 10, 2005)

A few encouraging hints are beginning to surface. Sounds like it really is getting kinda close to intro.  

GH


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

gquiring said:


> External SATA support? Same cable requirements - each tuner needs it's own feed from the dish?


There is an eSATA port... if it is going to be enabled right away... different story.

Don't know what the cable requirements are yet.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> There must be something because not a week goes by that you don't publicly lament the fact that DirecTV chose to go in a direction other than TiVo.


There's nothing to get over. My "weekly" posts only point out that DTV still cannot get DVR software working whereas Tivo had and has that working. DTV also had a relationship with Tivo. Egos threw that relationship aside. I'm all for moving forward, but thus far, the DTV DVR PLUS+ I've seen does not have anything to do with movement forward from what DTV had with the Tivo units. Active channels, What's Hot, cool gimicks, but those have nothing to do with DVR technology. And that's just an observation, nothing to do with defending Tivo.



harsh said:


> I've seen no mention of a centralized HD capable live distribution system based on TiVo technology.


I've seen no mention of that being available with HMC, technology that still is undefined and with no release date. Have you seen reference to the fact that HMC will offer this?

Plus, this is available with MRV. If my Tivo A is recording a program and via MRV from Tivo B I want to watch that program I can start a transfer to Tivo B and watch that program. This is something I can do now with DTV content (granted by hacking the unit to turn MRV on).. How long will it take DTV to offer this with their new technology DVRs?

Tivo's method is not centralized. Why does DTV's method need to be centralized, other than a central unit that coordinates what the slave units record and when, basically conflict resolution. Why would all tuners need to be on one unit? Why would all content need to flow into and out of one central unit? That concept goes against everything that currently exists in business.

I don't want one piece of DTV hardware controlling my entire home. I... a) don't trust their hardware and b) don't trust their software.



harsh said:


> TiVo's version of home media involves copying files around while DirecTV's version involves streaming content. There is going to be continuing and increasing pressure from the content providers to do away with TiVo's implementation.


Regarding the copying of files from one unit to another, how do you see HMC working? Do you see real time streaming of content over a wireless home network that can hit 11 or mabe 54 mps max? That's not enough bandwidth. I could have 3 family members all wanting to watch different shows at the same time, Pausing them, RRing, FFing.

I'm hoping for a workable solution, but the only solution I've seen come out of DTV is one with a limit of 50 SLs and 100 ToDo items. At this point you must consider one's track record for reinventing what already exists. DTV's track record isn't impressive. And that has nothing to do with Tivo.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> There is an eSATA port... if it is going to be enabled right away... different story.
> 
> Don't know what the cable requirements are yet.


So the HR20 will have an external SATA port that is enabled when it ships? Any more specifics? Can one attach any drive they purchase or do the drives need to be purchased.....err....leased from DTV?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> So the HR20 will have an external SATA port that is enabled when it ships? Any more specifics? Can one attach any drive they purchase or do the drives need to be purchased.....err....leased from DTV?


Hopefully I will be answer your question next week.
I am hoping to get another round of HR20-tidbits...


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## uncrules (Dec 20, 2005)

A poster at satellite guys claims that the LA market will be beta testing them the 1st week in August.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=616446&postcount=20


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

uncrules said:


> A poster at satellite guys claims that the LA market will be beta testing them the 1st week in August.
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=616446&postcount=20


Ah, meaning LA customers will be the first to start the beta!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

uncrules said:


> A poster at satellite guys claims that the LA market will be beta testing them the 1st week in August.
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=616446&postcount=20


The timeframe corresponds to what I have recently heard... 
And not surprising that it would be the LA area, as that is where DirecTV has a major office.

But there is no "public" beta program...


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually...
> 
> #1: I still have a "relationship" with that dealer, but for various reasons... I can not benefit from that "relationship" as I have in the past.
> #2: That would be true
> ...


Why refer to 'that dealer' as if it's something shady - when we all know it's not and you beta test for him or something like that. 'That dealer' would be Robert Johns from ValueElectronics, right? You people make it sound like spy versus spy or something.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes... the dealer is Robert from Value Electronics.
However... do to combination of circumstances.. the releationship I had with VE/Robert is no longer... Nothing against Robert & VE, but any of the new equipment I receive is not from him.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

It sounds like earl

1. has ditched an old source 

2. has moved up the ladder information wise

3. is an expert at being a tease (there must be word for that but not sure what to say....)

i was careful not to opine in there, especially #1....i'm proud of myself .....a posting without tone should be shown to my boss lol


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## DidlySquat (Jun 23, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> So is possible that D*'s will be similar to the VOOM.


I don't know if that is still the game plan, but it was originally.

www spacenewsfeed co uk/2005/9January2005_11.html (can't post URLs yet)

Snippet:

*(6 January 2005) Ucentric Systems, a leading provider of home media networking software for the digital home, has announced a licensing agreement with DirecTV, Inc., the USA's leading and fastest growing digital television service provider, to deploy its Home Media Center software platform.*


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

newsposter said:


> It sounds like earl
> 
> 1. has ditched an old source
> 
> ...


If I didn't know you so well.....   
For #1: Wasn't my choice  and I found out at a bad time and it cost me 
For #2: You could say that... just moved more towards 1st hand info
For #3: I am getting good at that aren't I  Keeps things intresting.


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## harley3k (Jul 19, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Found it http://www.satelliteguys.us/demo/
> 
> DidlySquat your where right it was UCentric, I don't know if they are motorola.


Ah yes, that was the video I saw.

That thin client box actually looks thin!

The interface looks like crap, but then don't they all nowadays...

I also noticed that none of the TVs in the demo are HD, so that'd be a major hurdle to overcome....but I guess its all moot now anyway since Motorola bought them out, and D* ditched the idea.

-h


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

D* hasn't ditched the "idea"

They have possible ditched using the Ucentric/Motorola system.
But the HMC is still a product they are working on. (confirmed this yesterday)


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl, Did you get a confirmation on what year they are shooting for?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

HIGHLY unlikely 2006... 2007 is probable, but to far out there to narrow down.

After the HR20 is release and out to market and some software updates for other systems are pushed out... the HMC is the next "big" thing on the receiver front.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for the heads up Earl. I won't be looking for it any time soon. I wish it was this year


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Does Robert still even work at ValueElectronics? I was there a few days ago and didn't see his name mentioned anywhere on the web site anymore.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

BillyT2002 said:


> Does Robert still even work at ValueElectronics? I was there a few days ago and didn't see his name mentioned anywhere on the web site anymore.


Work? I thought he owned it?


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## thumperr (Feb 10, 2006)

I believe he still posts to AVSforum. see his name and company in the HD-DVD player area.

Edit: here is an article he is mentioned in
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=701899


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## DVRaholic (Nov 19, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> Work? I thought he owned it?


Robert is the Owner, I live about 20 minutes from his store.
He does have a Storefront in Scarsdale NY. and I met him personally when I bought my R-15. He is a very personable guy thats why his business succeeds. I had a really good experience even though the R-15 Software was the Worst!!  Not roberts fault


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> My "weekly" posts only point out that DTV still cannot get DVR software working whereas Tivo had and has that working.


We got your point long before the last thirty or fourty times you explained it to us.


> I've seen no mention of that being available with HMC, technology that still is undefined and with no release date. Have you seen reference to the fact that HMC will offer this?


The basic design of the HMC was announced at the 2005 CES. Do a web search for "DirecTV Home Media Center".

Pay careful attention to the sentences containing the words "central" and "storage".


> Plus, this is available with MRV. If my Tivo A is recording a program and via MRV from Tivo B I want to watch that program I can start a transfer to Tivo B and watch that program.


This is peer-to-peer as opposed to server-based.


> Why does DTV's method need to be centralized, other than a central unit that coordinates what the slave units record and when, basically conflict resolution. Why would all tuners need to be on one unit? Why would all content need to flow into and out of one central unit? That concept goes against everything that currently exists in business.


Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) is all the buzz today. It isn't far removed from computing 40 years ago with mainframes and dumb terminals. The point is not duplicating all the components required for a DVR for each television just as client-server computing allows relatively underpowered computers to run simple client software to query the powerful server.


> I don't want one piece of DTV hardware controlling my entire home. I... a) don't trust their hardware and b) don't trust their software.


I'd rather have something from DirecTV than a network of Windows based devices.


> Regarding the copying of files from one unit to another, how do you see HMC working? Do you see real time streaming of content over a wireless home network that can hit 11 or mabe 54 mps max? That's not enough bandwidth.


Hence my question about what the medium would be. They could use Ethernet or RG6 with distinctive connectors in a star LAN layout.

My theory is that the clients will be capable of decoding and displaying an encrypted copy of the satellite stream and acting as remote control relays to the server. Kind of like an H20 without the tuner.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

harsh said:


> We got your point long before the last thirty or fourty times you explained it to us.


Have you taken the time to read ANY of the positive posts I've made regarding 10C0 when I had it and some believed I was making it up? Or the positive posts I've made regarding 10C8? Harsh, I think you need to "get over it". I post my opinion here as others do, why do you feel the need to jump on anyone you don't agree with?



harsh said:


> Service Oriented Architecture (SOA) is all the buzz today.


Sure in corporate data centers SOA is an option. In consumer electronics, no so much. How do you spell "Too Expensive"? If DTV wants to keep going down the 9 tuner/1TB road, trust me, it will never get to market. Too Expensive.



harsh said:


> I'd rather have something from DirecTV than a network of Windows based devices.


Who mentioned Windows? I'm a *ix guy and have been since running Xenix in 1985 on 286 processors.



harsh said:


> Hence my question about what the medium would be. They could use Ethernet or RG6 with distinctive connectors in a star LAN layout.


There we go. Let's eliminate the need to run a pair of RG6 cables to each DVR location and make everyone rewire their house with RG6 running from their HMC location. That'll fly.



harsh said:


> My theory is that the clients will be capable of decoding and displaying an encrypted copy of the satellite stream and acting as remote control relays to the server. Kind of like an H20 without the tuner.


How can you receive and decrypt a SAT signal without a tuner? You mean via the new RG6 run from the HMC? Then why not just make this a peer to peer network of R15s and HR20s with one designated as the "Controller"? The network being implemented via software in the still inexpensive DVRs.

Do you really have a plan as to how this could work or do you just like picking fights?


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> How can you receive and decrypt a SAT signal without a tuner? You mean via the new RG6 run from the HMC? Then why not just make this a peer to peer network of R15s and HR20s with one designated as the "Controller"? The network being implemented via software in the still inexpensive DVRs.
> 
> Do you really have a plan as to how this could work or do you just like picking fights?


Well, I'm basing this off of NDS's Homenet thingy, but they want you to have a centralized network with one access card, one interactive middleware, and a shared EPG (you couldn't be able to do that with networked R15s and H20s) and want you to put all of you media on their little HomeNet device (or in DirecTV's case HMC).

You should also be able to have the server communicate with outside devices like an iPod and you can have interesting things that connot be achieved with your setup like (got this from NDS's website) multi-room games, photo albums, and music jukebox. Whoot! And thin clients would probably be way cheaper to manufacture than DVRs. So it just makes the whole setup less clutterful (my new word) and you have all of your media on one box.

The only problem I see is how they will deliver content from the box to the thin client.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Thin boxes will be cheaper but what's the HMC going to cost?


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## jonaswan2 (Oct 29, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Thin boxes will be cheaper but what's the HMC going to cost?


Well if it's going to have a LCD in the unit, a hard drive large enough to store all of your content, and enough tuners...

a lot. But I couldn't imagine it being to much more expensive than a Media Center PC with multiple extenders.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

So maybe $1,500 up front lease costs and a 12 year committment?


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If I didn't know you so well.....
> For #1: Wasn't my choice  and I found out at a bad time and it cost me
> For #2: You could say that... just moved more towards 1st hand info
> For #3: I am getting good at that aren't I  Keeps things intresting.


If you know me "well," you are amazing. I've tried to hide behind an online personality for years so as not to reveal my true (nice) self. (and if no one believes this, I've obviously succeeded )

and goes to show you how much i follow online politics...i had no idea about #1. I do hope you dont mean financially and anything you can share would be of interest.

It's fun razzing you about stuff. I'll admit here (one time only) that it's pure fun for me and I'm not a fanatic (no other forums mentioned) about trying to pin you down for info and force you into constantly lying to us about missed dates. 

that being said
2007!!! I know you *promised* on this day at this time that it would be 2nd quarter at lastest (searches for link)..... I'm going to cable with my crippled moxi box and more frequent outages and tossing my tivos out into the spa!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Not a problem.

As for #1... nah... it just cost me an opportunity to do a review on a product that I was looking forward to (not the HR20)

And I found out a couple weeks after my dad's death....

HMC? I don't think I ever had a date on HMC.

I know HR20 I had said earlier this year, the end of Q2, then updated it to Q3 when I got updated info.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> I post my opinion here as others do, why do you feel the need to jump on anyone you don't agree with?


We are well aware of your viewpoint. The idea that you repost the same opinion ad nauseum is what I'm having a tough time with.

What TiVo offers is only valid in comparison, not as an replacement for what DirecTV is doing. To substantially copy the TiVo technology (or something that even works or looks like it), is how one experiences the joy of a lawsuit.


> Sure in corporate data centers SOA is an option.


From the limited information we have about the HMC, apparently DirecTV has decided that it is worth pursuing.


> Who mentioned Windows? I'm a *ix guy and have been since running Xenix in 1985 on 286 processors.


Just as a point of reference. I've been doing *nix since 1990 and I've yet to see a retail marketable home automation or video distribution system show up. VLC and the like are workable, but they certainly aren't consumer level tools for serving up content to home theatre systems.


> There we go. Let's eliminate the need to run a pair of RG6 cables to each DVR location and make everyone rewire their house with RG6 running from their HMC location.


As many forward thinking builders have been doing homerun systems in their new construction for a few years, this shouldn't be a big problem. Most existing satellite systems have to run alongside existing distribution systems because they don't have enough cables.


> How can you receive and decrypt a SAT signal without a tuner?


Not the satellite signal. I'm talking about sending an encrypted MPEG stream.


> Then why not just make this a peer to peer network of R15s and HR20s with one designated as the "Controller"?


Because you can't avail yourself of any of the economies of a client server architecture if all of the clients must be substantially as powerful as the server. The economies that are being chased after:

o Not duplicating any content in storage
o modular construction
o reducing the cost of installation.
o doesn't require DVR(s) at each television.

I regularly see stories of multiple DVRs at a single display. This kind of system could eliminate that need.


> The network being implemented via software in the still inexpensive DVRs.


Inexpensive is in the eye of the beholder. A simple STB shouldn't cost nearly as much as a full-on DVR. Compare the MSRP of a Slingbox to the MSRP of the R15. Remember also that the R15 price is in part subsidized by a portion of the monthly programming fee.


> Do you really have a plan as to how this could work or do you just like picking fights?


I'm suggesting possible methods for implementing the HMC as I understand it. You're suggesting alternatives to the HMC.

I'm not sure that it has been established that P2P is possible with the DTV branded DVRs. The most critical roadblock to what you're proposing is the lack of an Ethernet port on the R15. Early mockups of the HR20 show an Ethernet port, but no mention is made of its utility.


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm sorry - I keep checking new posts in this thread for information on the "New DirecTV HD DVR" (silly me) and all I wind up reading about is the HMC-related "stuff" (to be nice-I really have no interest right now in HMC since it *doesn't exist yet*) and/or the ongoing feud between Harsh and Wolffpack.

Didn't Wolffpack start a separate thread on HMC to avoid hijacking this one? I could be wrong, but mods - could we get back on topic here, or change the title of the thread please? Thanks.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> As for #1... nah... it just cost me an opportunity to do a review on a product that I was looking forward to (not the HR20)
> 
> ...


no, new dvr release date. I dont even know what hmc is.

waiting for 6.3........


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## KCWolfPck (Jul 10, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Hopefully I will be answer your question next week.
> I am hoping to get another round of HR20-tidbits...


Any tidbits yet? Only 1 week until they cut off my HD DNS feeds so as you can imagine, we are all hoping this thing comes out sooner rather than later (hopefully before football season). I don't want to have to move my H20 into my main theater room to supplement my HR10-250.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The only tidbits I was given, was that the UI is going to have updated fonts...
Also that internal beta testing of the RC (Release Candidate) of the software is to start in the next few weeks...

I hopefully will get more information once that testing begins.


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## newsposter (Nov 13, 2003)

i truly feel bad for you that can't get OTA. I'd toss my tivo up their butts if i lost the ability to record my fall season of HD stuff


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I've been waiting for a letter to show up telling me I'm out for HD, but I haven't heard anything yet. I only have the HD-TiVo plus some other SD TiVo's that (of course) do not receive DNS. Is it possible that I will be OK for now .. perhaps until the new MPEG-4 DVR arrives /hopes/ ?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brott said:


> I've been waiting for a letter to show up telling me I'm out for HD, but I haven't heard anything yet. I only have the HD-TiVo plus some other SD TiVo's that (of course) do not receive DNS. Is it possible that I will be OK for now .. perhaps until the new MPEG-4 DVR arrives /hopes/ ?


Are MPEG-4 locals available in your area?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are MPEG-4 locals available in your area?


Oh, most certainly. I'm in the SF Bay area and we're up near the top of the list for DMAs. FOX is owned by Cox (I think) and the others are O&O by the networks. I had waivers way back when, then lost SD, then moved to a new house (with DirecTV mover program), then got HD-TiVo and started receiving DNS HD as part of the O&O program (at least that's what I thought).

I expected to receive the letter, but since this is next week, I'm either (1) going to get shut off without ANY (or at minimum SHORT notice) or (2) I'm not going to get shut off just yet. I'll let you know either way.


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## dagztwo3 (Jun 8, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Are MPEG-4 locals available in your area?


Hey Earl,

Is it confirmed that they will shut off national HD feeds in August? I live in the stix (40 miles NW of Chicago), so if this is true, then in order for me to get the networks in HD (with a DVR) I would have to put a big ugly antennea on my roof????


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## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

dagztwo3 said:


> then in order for me to get the networks in HD (with a DVR) I would have to put a big ugly antennea on my roof????


Well, there are slim line OTA's available from TERK, should work fine for you being so close to Chitown


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Sorry didn't see your post till today..

As of right now... yes, National HD DNS feeds are going to be shutdown on August 6th... I recieved my letter about a week ago now... I am still trying to talk to someone at DirecTV to see if anything can be done till the HD-DVR is released.

And Pappys... at 40 miles NW of Chicago... those slimline Terks are not going to work very well. I have a 12' antenna in my attic, and I am 35 Miles SW... and I can only get CBS-DT on good days, and if I unplug my son's computer.

I have one of those slimlines at my in-laws business... they are terrible... unless you are EXTREMELY lucky and a side of your house faces extactly towards the towers.

And being in the NW burbs, you are going to run into cross signals from Milwaulkee...


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## pappys (Jul 27, 2006)

After I posted that comment, I thought that someone would reply as such. sorry.


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## Grantbo (Aug 2, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Sorry didn't see your post till today..
> 
> As of right now... yes, National HD DNS feeds are going to be shutdown on August 6th... I recieved my letter about a week ago now... I am still trying to talk to someone at DirecTV to see if anything can be done till the HD-DVR is released.
> 
> ...


I live 35 miles N/NW of Chicago (Mundelein/60060) and have had pretty good luck with OTA HD reception on the big 3 networks. I've been using a Radio Shack "bat wing" antenna mounted on a pole approx 25 ft high, and pulled in the Chicago ABS/CBS/NBC feeds rock solid. Even with one "wing" lost to a wind storm, I still pulled in all 3 stations! I recently moved on to a HR10-250 and the "wing" no longer pulls in WBBM with out severe pixelation. I have an antennacraft Y5-2-6 low- band antenna being shipped as I type, in hopes of clearing-up the pixelation problem. I plan to couple this low-band VHF specific antenna to the DB2 "type" UHF antenna supplied during the HR10-250 install. I'll report back after the install.

Grant


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## Grantbo (Aug 2, 2006)

Grantbo said:


> I'll report back after the install.
> 
> Grant


I received the low-band VHF (2-6) antenna and successfully mounted it in combination with a UHF "DB2 style" antenna on my roof. I orientated the two antennas towards the Chicago broadcast towers at 145 Deg, and all signals have been rock solid. The wide elements of the low-band VHF seemed to have done the trick for pulling in this tricky station.

Grant


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