# Was finally tempted by DishTV but got turned off real fast...



## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

I have been a DirecTV customer since 1996 but have been letting my latest membership obligation wind down, ignoring all the renewal offers because I have come to hate them. I've been considering cable with a couple TiVo Series 3's but was curious about Dish after seeing the 1080p commercials.

I gotta say they haven't made a great impression. First I wasted at least 30 minutes on their site trying to get technical details about their 1080p programming and the compatible DVR's -- how much compression, how many programs offered, confirmation that the HD DVR’s can record and playback in 1080p, what capacity would the high-end unit have for 1080p programming, etc. That proved almost a total waste of time. Despite flashy promos for the 1080p capacity, when you go to any of the online specs or brochures for their HD receivers they all still says they only support up to 1080i. I would think with the time it takes to produce and get commercials on the air they could make the site info support the advertising.

I finally gave up and called them. First I got a sales guy. Wow was he clueless. You could tell he didn’t even understand what he was saying and was reading from a script. He finally admitted he knew nothing about HD and would transfer me to tech support “specialist” who would know all the details about the 1080p programming. After waiting on hold some more I got their supposedly HD-trained tech support and this person was only slightly different than the first in that she had a bigger script. She didn’t even know what 1080i versus p was (let alone 480, 720, etc.) other than that her script said p was better. When I asked her if she could confirm whether any of their receivers could play or record 1080p at first she read something and said that it “had nothing to do with the receiver but whether I had a 1080p TV and as long as I did all their programming would be in 1080p on all their receivers.” I knew this was impossible so I challenged her further. I eventually got “escalated” to someone else who seemed to not really know anything about it but who eventually read the info on their site I pointed out and said, “you’re right.” Then she went away and came back and said that “at the moment we have no receiver that can play 1080p but that since the 1080p programming comes over the phone line instead of the satellite it doesn’t matter.” This was their ESCALATED tech support person. She also said that “at the moment there are no plans for additional content in 1080p beyond ‘I Am Legend.”” Gee, sounds tempting.

I finally gave up. From surfing here and other sites I have figured out they released a software upgrade to allow 1080p on certain boxes. Their own people don’t realize that yet, nor does their online literature. Then I read that the new feature all these commercials are hyping is really a grand total of ONE MOVIE available in 1080p. That is so deceptive and lame that it has turned me off Dish all together. Granted, DirecTV is just as bad, aggressively promoting all their HD content about 18 months before they had it, but that’s one of the reasons I plan to leave them. Similar with their pathetic customer support and tech support, though I have to say the Dish experience may make me re-think whether DirecTV’s customer support is really in the worst in the world, as I have accused them of. I had hoped Dish would be better…

Am I missing something or did they just have the “z” team working tonight?


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## brant (Jul 6, 2008)

why would you expect them to give you the details of the amount of compression they use? does directv give you that info? the tech support people aren't there to explain how the satellite works; they just make sure you can receive what they're selling. i have the all HD package and i'm extremely happy with my service. They give me the channels listed in the package and I send them a check every month. that's pretty much all there is to it. i've called customer service a couple of times and had no problems; but i wasn't beating them up for what is most likely proprietary information. you just need to find who delivers the content you want at a price you're comfortable paying.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

brant said:


> why would you expect them to give you the details of the amount of compression they use? does directv give you that info? the tech support people aren't there to explain how the satellite works; they just make sure you can receive what they're selling. i have the all HD package and i'm extremely happy with my service. They give me the channels listed in the package and I send them a check every month. that's pretty much all there is to it. i've called customer service a couple of times and had no problems; but i wasn't beating them up for what is most likely proprietary information. you just need to find who delivers the content you want at a price you're comfortable paying.


First of all, I didn't say I asked the techs that -- I said I was looking for that in their online details (and I don't know why it has to be "proprietary" -- they compare themselves specifically to Blu-ray which provides that info for each disc readily to consumers). Second, you are missing the forest for the trees by focusing on that one fact. Most of the post focused on their basic inability to even say whether they had a single receiver that could support the 1080p or them saying they didn't, or the fact that they are promoting an entire service that broadcasts a total of one specific movie title so far...


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

Maybe Cable will make you happy.


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## todbnla (Aug 2, 2008)

FWIW, I hear the Verizon FIOS service to be very good but since its fiber based (I hear?) its not available everywhere, as far as cable, not sure thats going to be any better, their all pretty lame in some sort or the other, IMHO. NONE are perfect!


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

I do agree that Dish CSR as a whole is a joke and their "Technical Department" is a bigger joke.
I do my damnest to never deal with anyone at Dish over the phone.
I am a fairly good troubleshooter and my Technical background gives me 10x more knowledgeable experience than any so called Technician you get on the phone thru Dish 1-800-333-3474 number.
Sometimes you have to deal with these sheet reading 3rd world country Technicians when you are leasing.
I had a situation 2 months ago where I knew I needed another Reciever. 
I could not convince the "Technical support" Team of this. The problem was that I was going to be forced to wait 15 days before a Technician could come and check it out. 
I finally used the email [email protected] to plead my case. 
3 hours later, I had a email sent to me saying a 622 Receiver was on the way.
It arrived at my house in 2 days and all is okay. 
The CSR at Dish is the worse I have ever dealt with. I have never dealed with Directv.
I love my 622, my HD Absolute pkg. etc. BUT the CSR and "Technicians" over the phone is a waste of money unless you are just ordering Dish programming or you actually are having weather issues in your area.


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## Justin23 (Jan 11, 2008)

Citivas said:


> Granted, DirecTV is just as bad, aggressively promoting all their HD content about 18 months before they had it, but that's one of the reasons I plan to leave them.


Can you be specific about this?

J


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## Deke Rivers (Jan 8, 2007)

brant said:


> why would you expect them to give you the details of the amount of compression they use? does directv give you that info? the tech support people aren't there to explain how the satellite works; they just make sure you can receive what they're selling. i have the all HD package and i'm extremely happy with my service. They give me the channels listed in the package and I send them a check every month. that's pretty much all there is to it. i've called customer service a couple of times and had no problems; but i wasn't beating them up for what is most likely proprietary information. you just need to find who delivers the content you want at a price you're comfortable paying.


Ditto!


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

todbnla said:


> FWIW, I hear the Verizon FIOS service to be very good but since its fiber based (I hear?) its not available everywhere, as far as cable, not sure thats going to be any better, their all pretty lame in some sort or the other, IMHO. NONE are perfect!


I'd echo this one - I don't know if FiOS is currently available in your neck of the woods, but they are rolling out aggressively in NJ. I switched over to FiOS from DirecTV just over a year ago, and I personally love the service. The PQ is the best going - Verizon does no additional compression of their signals - they pass on what they get from the channels. No, you won't get 1080p (don't know if they have any plans to start offering it) and their equipment most definitely doesn't support it at this point. And they most definitely support Tivo. I would go to Verizon's website and see if it's available to you.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Justin23 said:


> Can you be specific about this?
> 
> J


DirecTV aggressively promoted with tens of millions of dollars (maybe more) worth of TV and other media ads that they were "soon" going to be the HD leader with hundreds of HD channels and urged people to sign-up for their new boxes, new dishes, new HD programming tier, etc. Then many of those people had to wait well over 18 months (all the while paying the programming fees) from the time they started this promotion until they started expanding the HD programming beyond a token few channels that was at best comparable to local cable and less than Dish at the time. Granted once they finally did expand they quickly added channels, but they also changed the programming tiers people had been paying into for 18+ months awaiting their additional channels so that they would have to pay more to even get some of the few channels they had been getting all that time while awaiting the promised programming. In the earlier days of the "new HD soon" push they also aggressively promoted purchase of the Tivo-based HD DVR to people as part of the package, sometimes incorrectly promising them it would work with the new HD programming when it launched (***I don't think this was ever their official position but a common claim by the DirecTV sales people and CSR's at the time, whether in their ignorance or intentional decent who knows&#8230. Then of course by the time they did launch it the TiVo boxes wouldn't work since they didn't (and never were expected to) support MPEG 4 and people had to again convert from the upgrade they did when signing up for the "hundreds of HD channels soon" pitch the first time.

This is a pattern for DirecTV. I still own a Tivo-based HD DVR as well as DirecTV's own newer HD DVR. I received a postcard from DirecTV LAST SUMMER promoting that they would "soon" be launching an "exciting" new upgrade to the TiVo boxes to allow remote scheduling and a deletion folder. That "soon" turned out to be a couple months ago, about 9-10 months after I got the promotion from them. Of course the exciting new features are stuff the stand-alone Tivos have had for years now.

To be clear, my beef is not with the time it took to launch the product or the quality of the final product itself. That is what it is. I just find it unethical for them to aggressively attempt to acquire (or in the case of the Tivo update, retain) customers so far removed from the actual product launches they are promoting to them at the time. That's why this 1080p promotion from Dish rubs me the wrong way too.

That alone wouldn't be enough to turn me from DirecTV though. It's just the icing on the cake, added to the damage their installers did to my house with the last move, the 8 months of hell I spend PAYING to be effectively a forced beta tester (with no ability to opt-out) for their own HD DVR until the box actually started working most of the time and not requiring 30 minute restarts every night, or the fact that they have just become so much more expensive than cable. I am fairly basic, with the HD package and HBO as my only premium services but am still paying close to $80/month. By comparison, I could be getting comparable cable for all the channels I care about, minus maybe 3 in HD, for $8/month more than I am already paying the cable company for my high speed Internet service. That is a $72/month premium to be a DirecTV customer. That is before I would now have to pay a TiVo service fee, which would eat into a little of that but far from most&#8230; I was hoping to find Dish an interest alternative too. I can't get FiOS in my neighborhood and likely won't for years if ever (too rural a street to justify their investment)&#8230;


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

jpl said:


> I'd echo this one - I don't know if FiOS is currently available in your neck of the woods, but they are rolling out aggressively in NJ. I switched over to FiOS from DirecTV just over a year ago, and I personally love the service. The PQ is the best going - Verizon does no additional compression of their signals - they pass on what they get from the channels. No, you won't get 1080p (don't know if they have any plans to start offering it) and their equipment most definitely doesn't support it at this point. And they most definitely support Tivo. I would go to Verizon's website and see if it's available to you.


I SO wish they were. They have rolled out in Townships neighboring us, but I am in a Township of 3,600 people and live on an isolated court of 9 homes surrounded by preserved farmland for at least a mile in every direction, so they would have to do a lot of wiring for a potential customer base of 9. I have a friend who is senior at Verizon and works on FiOS who agreed I am SOL...


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Citivas said:


> I SO wish they were. They have rolled out in Townships neighboring us, but I am in a Township of 3,600 people and live on an isolated court of 9 homes surrounded by preserved farmland for at least a mile in every direction, so they would have to do a lot of wiring for a potential customer base of 9. I have a friend who is senior at Verizon and works on FiOS who agreed I am SOL...


Yeah, I figured as much. Cranbury is a beautiful area - my mother lives fairly close by - but I agree, it's a tad on the remote side to warrant them coming in with fiber. Doesn't sound very likely, unless they do move forward with the plan for FTTN (some exec at Verizon was musing about that as a possible solution to make it cost-effective to roll into more remote areas). I don't know how likely that is, though.


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Citivas said:


> I finally gave up. From surfing here and other sites I have figured out they released a software upgrade to allow 1080p on certain boxes. Their own people don't realize that yet, nor does their online literature. Then I read that the new feature all these commercials are hyping is really a grand total of ONE MOVIE available in 1080p. That is so deceptive and lame that it has turned me off Dish all together. Granted, DirecTV is just as bad, aggressively promoting all their HD content about 18 months before they had it, but that's one of the reasons I plan to leave them. Similar with their pathetic customer support and tech support, though I have to say the Dish experience may make me re-think whether DirecTV's customer support is really in the worst in the world, as I have accused them of. I had hoped Dish would be better&#8230;
> 
> Am I missing something or did they just have the "z" team working tonight?


The ViP 722 and 622 HD DVRs can output 1080p via HDMI given the correct media. Right now the only media offering is I Am Legend, as a demonstration and at a demo price. It's delivered overnight via satellite to your DVR's hard drive.

It's not deceptive, at least. They don't say "hundreds of 1080p channels," they say "now delivering 1080p."

It's not like any networks are broadcasting in 1080p, anyway. Where would they get the source from? VOD/PPV is about the only place you COULD get 1080p.


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## grooves12 (Oct 27, 2005)

Never mind the fact that the true difference in quality between 1080p and 1080i is absolutely ZERO, and for someone that is sooooo interested in specs, you would think they would understand that.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Citivas said:


> I SO wish they were. They have rolled out in Townships neighboring us, but I am in a Township of 3,600 people and live on an isolated court of 9 homes surrounded by preserved farmland for at least a mile in every direction, so they would have to do a lot of wiring for a potential customer base of 9. I have a friend who is senior at Verizon and works on FiOS who agreed I am SOL...


I'm not sure what your beef is about the 1080P content. Most people don't have 1080p tv sets. 1080p distributed via anything beyond BlueRay is in it's infancy. It will take time to get anywhere. My guess is that most of the BD content is being displayed on either 1080i TV sets or 1080i capable TVs. 1080i capable is what I use as it is a 32" 1366 by 768 panel in it. For the room it is in it plenty large.

Dishnetwork has the lowest cost HD only packages with optional DVRs that as a new Sub you could subscribe to.

The DVR works better than the others and I can't remember the last time it didn't record except for the time the power was out.


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## jkane (Oct 12, 2007)

I totally agree with the OP's points. It's not if you or I or anyone else has perceptive enough vision to see 1080p and tell it from 1080i, it is if they are advertising that they have it, then they should be able to tell a potential customer where and how they deliver that service! It's paramount to false advertising the way they proclaim the availability of 1080p. It ranks right up there with 100 HD channels. Even if I go into the ALL HD guide that Dish programs for me, there is no where near 100 listed.


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

I agree, but.... if you have Turbo Gold + Platinum + RSN's + you subscribe to all movie channels, THEN you hit the "ALL HD" button... I wonder what the count is (maybe 111?)

Yeah it's the "1080P" deception that bugs me. I have a 1080P "compatable" TV, but not a true 1080P TV, so does me no good. And ONE movie, that's a LOT less than 100 channels (not that that is related). Not sure why they would waste sooooo much on advertizing, when it's only going to piss people off when they see what it really does (or doesn't do). Then again they are not really charging for "Turbocharging", so we shouldn't complain too much.

But I would think there is plenty of ammunition for anyone that wants to sue Dish for false advertizing... I don't have 100 channels either, and my TV is not compatable... even though it says "TURBOCHARGED".



jkane said:


> I totally agree with the OP's points. It's not if you or I or anyone else has perceptive enough vision to see 1080p and tell it from 1080i, it is if they are advertising that they have it, then they should be able to tell a potential customer where and how they deliver that service! It's paramount to false advertising the way they proclaim the availability of 1080p. It ranks right up there with 100 HD channels. Even if I go into the ALL HD guide that Dish programs for me, there is no where near 100 listed.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

grooves12 said:


> Never mind the fact that the true difference in quality between 1080p and 1080i is absolutely ZERO, and for someone that is sooooo interested in specs, you would think they would understand that.


*Thank you! Absolutely 100% correct*. 
1080p is no more than a "selling tool" for Dish.
Its like walking into Circuit city and the saleman telling you a 1080p television is what you need to get the best reception possible from OTA signals and DBS HD.
It sounds good but its a crock of poop. 
The average "joe" does not know the difference between analog and digital much less 1080i and 1080p.


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

Average Joe here.

Analog = Bronze
1080i = Silver
1080p = Gold

Bronze is great, but we'd all rather have Gold.

I agree, I don't think I could tell 1080i from 1080p, but I could sure tell analog!


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## DustoMan (Jul 16, 2005)

Citivas said:


> I have been a DirecTV customer since 1996 but have been letting my latest membership obligation wind down, ignoring all the renewal offers because I have come to hate them. I've been considering cable with a couple TiVo Series 3's but was curious about Dish after seeing the 1080p commercials.
> 
> I gotta say they haven't made a great impression. First I wasted at least 30 minutes on their site trying to get technical details about their 1080p programming and the compatible DVR's -- how much compression,


I stopped reading your post at this point... :nono: Frankly, you're not someone who would be happy with DISH and should really stick to your Tivo Series 3 plan and snap those up as soon as possible as Tivo isn't making those units anymore... have fun.


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## allargon (May 3, 2007)

tcatdbs said:


> Average Joe here.
> 
> Analog = Bronze
> 1080i = Silver
> ...


Analog=lead!

1080i=1080p on any decent 1080p display.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

If 1080i is effectively the same as 1080p and if most people won't care because they don't have 1080p sets yet why is Dish bothering to spend millions making a big deal about the 1080p "True HD" service in the first place? Whether it is perception or reality is beside the point. Either way Dish thought it was important enough to hype.


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

Ignorant people are swayed by marketing... "P" is higher than "I", so they sign up, or just the word "Turbocharged" is perceived value. They're doing so much marketing just to add subs, they don't really care that what they are marketing is meaningless. Gets a lot of folks looking... they sucked me in - with the "HD" not the "P" (and the lower cost).


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## kal915 (May 7, 2008)

tcatdbs said:


> Ignorant people are swayed by marketing... "P" is higher than "I", so they sign up, or just the word "Turbocharged" is perceived value. They're doing so much marketing just to add subs, they don't really care that what they are marketing is meaningless. Gets a lot of folks looking... they sucked me in - with the "HD" not the "P" (and the lower cost).


That's how they sucked me in


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

The PQ should be better then regular broadcast HD because it is downloaded content and not streamed. That means there should be less compression.


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

Dish 1080p is VOD only, no streaming or recording of regular channels in 1080p, as a matter of fact no 1080p on any regular channels.

Reports are that the VOD is 1920X1080p24.


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## allargon (May 3, 2007)

HobbyTalk said:


> The PQ should be better then regular broadcast HD because it is downloaded content and not streamed. That means there should be less compression.


Aah... but by that assumption, you think they reserved enough space on our DVR's hard drives to give us minimally compressed, high bitrate content? :nono2:


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Citivas said:


> DirecTV aggressively promoted with tens of millions of dollars (maybe more) worth of TV and other media ads that they were "soon" going to be the HD leader with hundreds of HD channels and urged people to sign-up for their new boxes, new dishes, new HD programming tier, etc. Then many of those people had to wait well over 18 months (all the while paying the programming fees) from the time they started this promotion until they started expanding the HD programming beyond a token few channels that was at best comparable to local cable and less than Dish at the time.


Directv said in all their adverting that the new HD channels would be coming online in the summer of 2007. They were delayed by a month because of an unforeseen problem, namely the sea launch rocket exploding and delaying ALL Sat launches which is completely out of anyone's control. Dish has been the victim of the same issue with the failure of one of their new sats to reach orbit earlier this year. That has kept them from adding some channels they way they wanted.

Also to note, one of the main reasons to switch boxes early on is that any sub in a LIL HD market had to have them starting in 2005 to receive any HD LIL channels. The only 2 markets that didn't have that issue where LA and NY for their DNS feeds, however, they were also lit up on the Spaceway sats in MPEG-4 giving them better pic quality for just LA and NY.. and more LIL channels...



Citivas said:


> Granted once they finally did expand they quickly added channels, but they also changed the programming tiers people had been paying into for 18+ months awaiting their additional channels so that they would have to pay more to even get some of the few channels they had been getting all that time while awaiting the promised programming. In the earlier days of the "new HD soon" push they also aggressively promoted purchase of the Tivo-based HD DVR to people as part of the package, sometimes incorrectly promising them it would work with the new HD programming when it launched (***I don't think this was ever their official position but a common claim by the DirecTV sales people and CSR's at the time, whether in their ignorance or intentional decent who knows&#8230.


Um, what programing teirs did they change? They moved like 2 channels into a separate $5 tier, and all the others they add you received for the same $10 that you had always been paying to get the HD channels, so I don't understand where that is coming from. (and they only add a couple new channels to that $5 tier too... over 90% of HD comes from the regular $10 a month HD access fee....)

And dish changes packages every 6 months, and cable rates are a min $13 after locals in my area... What are the rates in your area, and what how many channels do they have? ANd more importantly, how many more do they plan to add in the next 2 years or so? How long before they go to switched digital?

And everyone's prices go up yearly...

As for the Tivo, I worked for a retailer selling Tivo HD boxes, and they were not the product that Directv was pushing, it was the product all the retailers where pushing because they new they wouldn't work with the new channels in a couple years.. and oh yeah, Directv is swapping all those Tivo units out for free.... And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't dish doing the exact same thing, swapping out all the MPEG-2 only HD boxes for MPEG-4 HD boxes? And guess what, I think something is going to be happening in cable land too, for them to be able to go to switched digital... So that is the nature of the business, something new comes out making the old thing that was top notch yesterday obsolete and virtually unusable... That especially happens with 1st generation products, which the HD Tivo boxes were...



Citivas said:


> Then of course by the time they did launch it the TiVo boxes wouldn't work since they didn't (and never were expected to) support MPEG 4 and people had to again convert from the upgrade they did when signing up for the "hundreds of HD channels soon" pitch the first time.


Again, which Directv has been working its way through and offering upgrades to anyone with MPEG-2 HD equipment, which covers a lot more than just the HD tivo boxes, and again, just as I believe Dish has done...



Citivas said:


> This is a pattern for DirecTV. I still own a Tivo-based HD DVR as well as DirecTV's own newer HD DVR. I received a postcard from DirecTV LAST SUMMER promoting that they would "soon" be launching an "exciting" new upgrade to the TiVo boxes to allow remote scheduling and a deletion folder. That "soon" turned out to be a couple months ago, about 9-10 months after I got the promotion from them. Of course the exciting new features are stuff the stand-alone Tivos have had for years now.


They said all along on the postcards and mailings that it would be 1st quarter of 2008.. It was a quarter late, but guess what.. Directv has nothing to do with upgrading those units other than putting their stamp of approval on it... It was Tivos job, so they are the ones who dropped the ball... Directv had that function on their boxes in the first quarter, so obviously they had their end (website) ready to go on time. Just like they are completely failing at integrating their Tivo software into Cable companies HD boxes nationwide... Talk about late, we are over a year past the stated launch date, and only a couple markets have launched, and they have experienced lots of issues...

The only thing I know of that Directv didin't deliver on was some HD LIL markets...



Citivas said:


> To be clear, my beef is not with the time it took to launch the product or the quality of the final product itself. That is what it is. I just find it unethical for them to aggressively attempt to acquire (or in the case of the Tivo update, retain) customers so far removed from the actual product launches they are promoting to them at the time. That's why this 1080p promotion from Dish rubs me the wrong way too.


You find what Directv has done unethical? Wow... Of all the advertising being done by Dish, Directv and Cable, Directv is the least over promising and misleading that I have seen, followed closely second by Dish, (although up until this month I'd have said they were tied. They shouldn't have added VOD to their HD channel counts) Cable is the biggest flat out liar there is in my area for advertising.. and that's up against anything, not just pay tv...



Citivas said:


> That alone wouldn't be enough to turn me from DirecTV though. It's just the icing on the cake, added to the damage their installers did to my house with the last move, the 8 months of hell I spend PAYING to be effectively a forced beta tester (with no ability to opt-out) for their own HD DVR until the box actually started working most of the time and not requiring 30 minute restarts every night, or the fact that they have just become so much more expensive than cable. I am fairly basic, with the HD package and HBO as my only premium services but am still paying close to $80/month. By comparison, I could be getting comparable cable for all the channels I care about, minus maybe 3 in HD, for $8/month more than I am already paying the cable company for my high speed Internet service. That is a $72/month premium to be a DirecTV customer. That is before I would now have to pay a TiVo service fee, which would eat into a little of that but far from most&#8230; I was hoping to find Dish an interest alternative too. I can't get FiOS in my neighborhood and likely won't for years if ever (too rural a street to justify their investment)&#8230;


Its unfortunate that you had a bad install... That can turn anyone off, but that can and does happen with cable and Dish too...

In my area, cable always gives you awsome 3 month deals to lure you in, but then after that the fees are through the roof, and you end up paying a minumum 150% more for tv than Directv... And thats with discounts for triple play.. I have Vonage, DSL and Directv and 6 HD boxes... I pay about $60 less a month than if I had the exact same with my cable company, after the intial offer...

In the end, you need to do what your comfortable with, but I'd have to say that you should read all the fine print before you make a switch.. No one is perfect, but if one of your main beefs is with ethics, I can't fathom how anyone would find cable better in that department than Directv or Dish..

Here is what I would do if I where you... Double check how much cable will cost you in 6 months to a year per month, and look into dumping cable and going dsl and vonage... Then if you want to give them a shot, suspend your account and have them install Dish or cable, and see if you like it, before you cancel anything... That way you don't back yourself into a corner on anything...

The only reason I am replying is because it sounds like you want to change because of how Directv advertises, and then you find the same issues with Dish... and I just want to let you know in my area, cable is thousands times worse, and from what I read, that doesn't change anywhere in the nation...

By the way, in my area.... HD (all 10 channels plus my locals) is $13, plus $15 for DVR capability, plus $5 for my 1st HD DVR box.. Thats right, $33 for 17 HD channels and 1 HDDVR...


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Um, what programing teirs did they change? They moved like 2 channels into a separate $5 tier, and all the others they add you received for the same $10 that you had always been paying to get the HD channels, so I don't understand where that is coming from. (and they only add a couple new channels to that $5 tier too... over 90% of HD comes from the regular $10 a month HD access fee....)


First off, it wasn't just 2 channels - secondly they did this AFTER they told all their customers that they wouldn't be raising prices due to all the new HD channels. The implication was very clear that customers would be paying the same as they were paying before. The creation of a new tier - having to pay an extra $5 per month for channels you were already getting - after saying they wouldn't raise prices is sleezy. How many people signed up for DirecTV in anticipation of those new HD channels? Lock into a nice 2 year contract, based on the promises that what you're paying now will stay the same after these channels are aded, only to find out that that's not true. Again, I think that's just plain sleezy. If DirecTV were more up-front about that, it wouldn't be an issue.

Also, part of the OP's beef (and I do think this is legit) is the fact that they were still selling the HR10 (tivo HD DVR) to customers, with the implication that those DVRs would work just fine in the future, only to totally revamp their architecture, requiring that those same customers now shell out an extra $100 - $300 (depending on the deal you got) for a new HD DVR, plus a nice new 2 year commitment. I think customers who went for the HR10 in the summer of 2006 really got screwed.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

jpl said:


> Also, part of the OP's beef (and I do think this is legit) is the fact that they were still selling the HR10 (tivo HD DVR) to customers, with the implication that those DVRs would work just fine in the future, only to totally revamp their architecture, requiring that those same customers now shell out an extra $100 - $300 (depending on the deal you got) for a new HD DVR, plus a nice new 2 year commitment. I think customers who went for the HR10 in the summer of 2006 really got screwed.


I thought all the HR10 customers are getting calls and emails for free swaps?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I thought all the HR10 customers are getting calls and emails for free swaps?


Some did, from what I understand. But, again based on my understanding, you still had to shell out some money - I don't think it was a one-for-one swap. And it still extended your contract.

I have no issue with DirecTV revamping their architecture like that - they needed to do that. But to charge customers as much as they did for the HR10, knowing full well the changes they were making at that time, was, in my opinion, sleezy. If they had compensated all those customers and told them they could get an HR20 for free, with no extension of their contract, that would be one thing.

BTW, none of this applied to me. I never had HD with DirecTV. In April 2007 I got my first HD TV. I wanted HD service. DirecTV wanted $300 for the HR20 (plus s&h). I still nearly went for it, but decided to look around instead (which led me to FiOS TV). All I can say is that if I had gone for it, I would have been just as ticked as the OP at that point. Why? Because of the new HD tier that they added. Not only would I have been out $300 for the equipment, but I'd be locked into a new contract at that point. To find out that their statement that they didn't see the need to raise prices on their HD offerings, only to have the creation of a new HD tier, requiring more money from me would have seriously ticked me off. I would have entered into that agreement with one understanding.

Granted, DirecTV has the right to raise prices - but don't have one of your senior officers, in an interview, tell the world 'we don't see the need to raise prices' only to turn around, a couple months later, to do that very thing. This wasn't something unknown to DirecTV at that time. The time difference between that statement and when they created that new tier was only a couple months, and they were well into their negotiations for the creation of these new HD channels.

BTW, anyone who doesn't see the creation of this new tier as raising prices - that's like Breyers telling me that they didn't raise the price of their ice cream - it's the same price it's been for years! Except that you now get 25% less in the package (I still find myself referring to those as 'gallons of ice cream'.)

Edit - one more point - inkahauts mentioned that:

"And guess what, I think something is going to be happening in cable land too, for them to be able to go to switched digital..."

with regard to forcing customers to swap out boxes. While that will undoubtedly be true, there's one tiny little difference with this - cable doesn't charge you up front for those boxes, and they don't require a contract. Look, if I voluntarily upgrade equipment and I'm required to pay an up-front fee, and add to my contract that's one thing. But to be forced to do that because of an architectural change by my paid TV service provider is something else entirely. I would be required to seriously extend my contract because of changes THEY'RE forcing on me.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

In reply to some of INKAHAUTS points:

1) You are giving DirecTV way to much credit in saying they always told everyone the program change would be in the Summer of 2007. Do you assume everyone goes online and finds official statements or forums of informed early adopters? Because I guarantee you not only were many (probably most) of the salespeople not saying that, but when pointedly asked they were saying very different answers. I vividly recall the unsolicited call I got from DirecTV during dinner saying that I had been a great customer and as a result they wanted to upgrade me to the TiVo 10-250 box (they didn’t call it that – they just said “DirecTV’s new HD digital video recorder”) and upgrade my satellite dish for a ‘small fee’ ($199, versus the much higher rate the boxes were selling in at Best Buy, etc.) in anticipation of the upcoming dramatic expansion of their HD service to become the HD leader in the industry. This was FALL 2005! I asked when this expansion would occur and the person said, “starting by early next year (2006), with gradual additions and that by the end of 2006 they would have over 100 channels.  I personally knew a little about the whole MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4 thing at the time so I pointedly asked if the new box they were sending would work with all the new HD channels when they came out. Yes, of course, they said. I said, how was that possible given the MPEG-4 issue. They had never heard of it but put me on hold and came back after “talking to a supervisor” and said they would be sending a software upgrade to make it work. Frankly I was skeptical of both their timing and compatibility claims at the time, but I’m sure there were many other customers who had less reason to doubt them.

2) They moved channels we had been getting as token placeholders to a special extra fee tier as soon as they added the new ones despite telling many people they would not change the HD cost once we finally got the service we had been promised for so long. It doesn’t matter to me how many or that they added others it was the principle of saying one thing and doing another. I’ve been a customer since they were below $30 / month (and didn’t start raising the fees for YEARS, as opposed to more than annually now) so I understand price increases. That’s not the point. The point is they need to be responsible for what their official agents (salespeople, CSR’s, etc.) are telling and promising people and not be deceptive. Even if they had changed those channels 6 months later I would not have had an issue. It was the immediate change that reinforced their pattern of total disregard for commitments. Clearly from the other posts I’m not the only one who was sold that song and dance from DirecTV.

3) As for your comment that you know DirecTV was “not pushing the Tivo’s” only the retailers were, I don’t know what to say since that is totally false. I have the paperwork to prove it since when THEY CALLED ME they tied my discounted 10-250 to a new membership commitment of course. They were aggressively pushing those boxes in 2005.

4) As for “all is forgiven” because they are gradually calling people now to offer them the new box, that may be true but I don’t see why it nullifies the false sale, especially when they made people pay hundreds for the previous box are making many people (since everyone gets a different offer with DirecTV and they like to deny they are even doing the offers they are giving others) pay for the new box too AND return the old box they already paid for AND only have the new box as a “lease” despite paying up-front for it AND sign-up for two more years to get it. Hardly a “make good” on the original sale that the TiVo boxes would work with the new service.

5) As for the new Tivo features being late is Tivo’s fault, I don’t care. Even if it had been launched in Q1 2008, it was stupid to send postcards promoting the features in mid-2007. I actually did read the postcards fine print at the time and posted on the DirecTV forums even then (i.e. before they were late) about how lame it was. Why do you need to send me a proactive announcement of vaporware 9+ months before you expect to launch it, especially when its only a minor upgrade of a couple features? I remember dropping by TiVo’s room at CES this January and asking them about it and they were totally annoyed DirecTv had sent that. They admitted at the time the product development hadn’t even started on the features yet when they sent it and as of January they still had no idea when it was going to be ready. From their stated POV, DirecTV had held up their product upgrades on the boxes for years then suddenly releases this contracted upgrade and promotes it before they even start it. It would be amazing to paint DirecTV as a totally innocent party here.

6) First, I stated that I was disappointed by Dish’s exaggerated, deceptive (which does not mean the same thing as false) promotions as well so it’s no defense of DirecTV to say the others are just as bad. But that said I have found DirecTV to be the most aggressive deceptive advertiser in my experience in the last two years. That’s just my opinion so there’s no point in debating it.

7) Cable companies are regional in the end, even when under the same corporate banner (like Comcast), so people’s experiences will be very different. I can only speak to mine. Since my company covers my high speed bills, I spend 6 months (before DirecTV could offer me HD locals) simultaneously using Comcast here. And all but one of my neighbors still does. There was no minimum commitment term, the price was not promotional and never went up nor was it about to go up at the end, and the service was great. The HD looks spectacular, still better than anything I have seen from DirecTV. My only beef was I hated their Motorola DVR. I have talked at length with my neighbors about this and Comcast hasn’t raised their package prices for them in years. So we just aren’t having the bait-and-switch issue here. But even if they did, the prices would have to go up by $70/month before it would even be break-even with my combined DirecTV/Comcast rate now…

8) I don’t just want to change just because of how DirecTV advertises and stated that in my previous reply. As a customer since the mid-90’s I am just profoundly disappointed at how much the service quality deteriorated over time. They used to be GREAT and I can’t tell you how many people I personally talked into converting. I haven’t done that in a few years. I believe the significant change is traced to News Corp’s ownership of them (and I say that as a one time News Corp employee). But whatever the reason, their CSR’s and tech support went from actually pretty good to laughable if not dangerous (in the sense that they tell people things that are often exactly wrong), their customer service went from very good to this game where they tell and offer everyone something different and have a special department where they finally route you to change their tune only when you threaten to quit (to the point it has become a game for savvy customers), while at the same time their product went from something that was profoundly better than cable (and in my opinion at the time, Dish, which had much worse receiver UI’s and features than DirecTV in the ‘90’s) to something that was neck-and-neck. Same with the pricing. So all the upside went away at the same time that the downside grew. If you are a major sports fan I can see why they still have a distinctive edge. If you really do watch some of those specific HD channels that according to the ratings almost no one else does, sure, that makes sense. But for me, there is nothing DirecTV now has that I can’t get elsewhere for less or comparable pricing and their policies do nothing to specifically value me as a long time customer so why should I give them loyalty they don’t show me? Only after all this does their deceptive practices come into play to tip the scales for me. Combined with their complete disregard for the customer service experience, it just demonstrates a cynical pattern in my opinion. So even if I assume Comcast is just as bad, that would mean it should come down to price since they would all be equally bad. And then Comcast would win.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

I still don't get the beef, here. Dish "Turbo-charged" (new encoding) their service in an August "roll-out", added more HD content Aug 1, and began a roll-out if 1080p VOD to TVs that can Display true 1080p. One movie, offered at a discount, is the initial offering in a 1080p satellite downloaded VOD service that will expand over time. That's deceptive? Someone without a true 1080p TV should, maybe, consider this a good time to upgrade. And, all that with the industry's only HD only service offering, using a new marketing handle "Turbo".


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## jerrylove56 (Jun 15, 2008)

Citivas said:


> I have been a DirecTV customer since 1996 but have been letting my latest membership obligation wind down, ignoring all the renewal offers because I have come to hate them. I've been considering cable with a couple TiVo Series 3's but was curious about Dish after seeing the 1080p commercials.
> 
> Don't join Dish. I have had their service since June 30, 08 and have had nothing but problems. Defective VIP722's and now searching for signal issues. I am now waiting for a service call (16 days) This is a mess. I hate Dish and their foreign Cust. Service Reps. who can't speak English. I am thinking about Cable. I never thought I would say that.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

patmurphey said:


> I still don't get the beef, here. Dish "Turbo-charged" (new encoding) their service in an August "roll-out", added more HD content Aug 1, and began a roll-out if 1080p VOD to TVs that can Display true 1080p. One movie, offered at a discount, is the initial offering in a 1080p satellite downloaded VOD service that will expand over time. That's deceptive? Someone without a true 1080p TV should, maybe, consider this a good time to upgrade. And, all that with the industry's only HD only service offering, using a new marketing handle "Turbo".


I have a 1080p set. And I have I Am Legend on Blu-Ray. So why is this a good opportunity for me to switch providers? Have you actually seen the commericals? The entie focs is on how they are the industry exclusive 1080p sat service. They don't mention just one movie or the fact that it is a download "VOD" (not really true VOD) service only with 1 channel. If they had not had any 1080p programming that would have been a lie or false. They fact that they promote it as a great "good as Blu-ray" (their words) service makes it deceptive. BTW, since they are really only downloading content, its kind of beside the ppoint that they may be the only sat service with a 1080p program. I can get the same service from other providers of download content with much bigger libraries.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> BTW, since they are really only downloading content, its kind of beside the ppoint that they may be the only sat service with a 1080p program. I can get the same service from other providers of download content with much bigger libraries.


mind telling who you can get 1080p programming downloaded through?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

In fact, American retail and service companies engage in public relations, marketing and spin.


> "Public relations" is the practice of managing the flow of information between an organization and its publics. Public relations aims to gain an organization or individual positive exposure to their key stakeholders, while downplaying any negative exposures and dealing with complaints skilfully.
> "Marketing" is the process of creating or directing an organization to be successful in selling a product or service that people not only desire, but are willing to buy. Therefore good marketing must be able to create a "proposition" or set of benefits for the end customer that delivers value through products or services.
> "Spin" is a usually pejorative term signifying a heavily biased portrayal in one's own favor of an event or situation; it is a euphamism for propaganda. While traditional public relations may also rely on creative presentation of the facts, "spin" often, though not always, implies disingenuous, deceptive and/or highly manipulative tactics.


Sometimes the magic works, and sometimes it doesn't with cable and satellite companies.

Note: definitions from Wikipedia


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Would you expect a Toyota automobile salesman to know what kind of charging waveform is used in the storage batteries for a Prius? In most cases, they probably don't know the difference between Li ion and Ni mh batteries, much less the fine technical details of how the batteries are charged.

Toyota sells cars, not a collection of components that you can pick and chose from. DISH Network sells access to television programming and leases receivers and DVRs to view it with. Anything over and above that and you should be asking questions here and not faulting DISH sales personnel for not knowing what type of rubber is used in the remote control buttons.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Citivas said:


> The entie focs is on how they are the industry exclusive 1080p sat service.


The versions of the ads that I've seen make reference to the fact that the 1080p content is VOD and not a satellite delivered offering. In the context of DBS satellite, VOD quite literally means via terrestrial broadband connection.


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> The versions of the ads that I've seen make reference to the fact that the 1080p content is VOD and not a satellite delivered offering. In the context of DBS satellite, VOD quite literally means via terrestrial broadband connection.


not quite, at least through E* it is downloaded to your hardrive between 1 and 9 am mountain time, via satellite, and has nothing to do with a broadband connection. There are movies available via broadband download on certain receivers through Dish Online, but that has nothing to do with VoD


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

harsh said:


> Would you expect a Toyota automobile salesman to know what kind of charging waveform is used in the storage batteries for a Prius? In most cases, they probably don't know the difference between Li ion and Ni mh batteries, much less the fine technical details of how the batteries are charged.
> 
> Toyota sells cars, not a collection of components that you can pick and chose from. DISH Network sells access to television programming and leases receivers and DVRs to view it with. Anything over and above that and you should be asking questions here and not faulting DISH sales personnel for not knowing what type of rubber is used in the remote control buttons.


The more applicable version of your analogy would be someone walking into a Toyota dealership and saying, "I hear you have some new fangled Hybrid car that gets good gas mileage, can you show me?" and no one at the dealership even being able to identify the Prius then saying, "you must be mistaken Toyota doesn't have any hybrid models yet."

I was asking 2-levels of technical support people which receiver in their line-up could play or record 1080p and they didn't know and eventually said none of them could yet. I didn't ask them any more technical questions than that. Besides, technical support in theory should be the equivilent of the dealership mechanics, not the sales people, and one would hope your mechanic knows a thing or two about the Toyota equipment. Bottom line is of three people (one CSR and two tech support), not one of them could correctly identify any Dish equipment that could display or record 1080p and incorrectly claimed that the data was streamed live via a phone line and by-passed the receiver straight to the TV. That's what the tech support supervisor was smoking...


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

harsh said:


> The versions of the ads that I've seen make reference to the fact that the 1080p content is VOD and not a satellite delivered offering. In the context of DBS satellite, VOD quite literally means via terrestrial broadband connection.


Are you talking about the TV ads? We saw a different ad then. I've seen the VOD reference in their online promotions but that's not what I'm talking about. BTW, they also state "same as blu-ray disc quality" so I guess that means they have the same level of compression? I doubt it.

So why do I care so much about the compression? Because they can claim to be 1080p and compress the heck out of it and end up with a PQ worse than a good1080i show. And contrary to some other posts, with the right TV and setup and at the right distance (and the right source transfer) 1080p is different than 1080i. Look, I was surprised anyone was advertising 1080p TV signals because I didn't expect to see them anytime soon considering it is not an HD broadcast standard and no TV channels are or will be using it anytime soon. That's not my issue. It was the drastic overstatement of the promotion. One movie on one channel with no ETA for any more programming in the future, downloaded in non-real-time is not something to promote as a 1080p TV service. It may eventually become a nice extra feature of Dish if they expand the content meaningfully. I hope so. All I was saying is a) it was a slimy (as it substantially overstated) ad claim versus reality and b) I was disappointed to find their CSR and tech support at least as bad as DirecTV.


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## smackman (Sep 19, 2006)

Citivas said:


> The more applicable version of your analogy would be someone walking into a Toyota dealership and saying, "I hear you have some new fangled Hybrid car that gets good gas mileage, can you show me?" and no one at the dealership even being able to identify the Prius then saying, "you must be mistaken Toyota doesn't have any hybrid models yet."
> 
> I was asking 2-levels of technical support people which receiver in their line-up could play or record 1080p and they didn't know and eventually said none of them could yet. I didn't ask them any more technical questions than that. Besides, technical support in theory should be the equivilent of the dealership mechanics, not the sales people, and one would hope your mechanic knows a thing or two about the Toyota equipment. Bottom line is of three people (one CSR and two tech support), not one of them could correctly identify any Dish equipment that could display or record 1080p and incorrectly claimed that the data was streamed live via a phone line and by-passed the receiver straight to the TV. That's what the tech support supervisor was smoking...


You are spot on! When Dish decided to promoted to the extreme "turbo charged" and 1080p, someone should be able to explain whats up with all this.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

jpl said:


> First off, it wasn't just 2 channels - secondly they did this AFTER they told all their customers that they wouldn't be raising prices due to all the new HD channels. The implication was very clear that customers would be paying the same as they were paying before. The creation of a new tier - having to pay an extra $5 per month for channels you were already getting - after saying they wouldn't raise prices is sleezy. How many people signed up for DirecTV in anticipation of those new HD channels? Lock into a nice 2 year contract, based on the promises that what you're paying now will stay the same after these channels are aded, only to find out that that's not true. Again, I think that's just plain sleezy. If DirecTV were more up-front about that, it wouldn't be an issue.


Actually, it was exactly 2 channels that were lost and moved to the extra pack, (HDNet movies and UHD, and how often do those get watched?) and then 3 other channels were put in that package that have NO sd channel (MGM HD, MHD (Music High Definition), Smithsonian Channel HD) when they were actually turned on, so no one lost those 3 channels... The way I look at it is if they had added those channels as an sd channel, then they would have put them in a extra movies and stuff package to pay for them since they weren't being paid for until they were turned on, it makes sense that they would be put in their own package.. Kind of like adding a new HBO type package. Something tells me we may see that package grow tomorrow, but I could be wrong... All channels that have an sd channel are included in the HD access fee if a customer receives the sd feed... And when they flipped the switch for all the announced HD channel versions of the sd channels, no one payed more... complain about those 2 channels is silly to me, and while you may call it sleazy, I think it was more like, do that, or not have them at all... or raise all rates by 50 cents... so I am glad they did it the way they did... And when you look at all the HD channels you doi get as a number vs. those particular 5.... and whats actually on all the channels... I don't think its that big a deal... But if you disagree, that's completely your right..



jpl said:


> Also, part of the OP's beef (and I do think this is legit) is the fact that they were still selling the HR10 (tivo HD DVR) to customers, with the implication that those DVRs would work just fine in the future, only to totally revamp their architecture, requiring that those same customers now shell out an extra $100 - $300 (depending on the deal you got) for a new HD DVR, plus a nice new 2 year commitment. I think customers who went for the HR10 in the summer of 2006 really got screwed.


First off, the HR10 was being sold, but wasn't being manufactured during that summer... and not all that easy to find... In fact, I think they stopped making them at the beginning of 2006, maybe earlier...

Second, NO one has had to pay for those or any other MPEG-2 HD only equipment to get replaced, if they wait until Directv got to them. They have offered to replace all those customers boxes and dishes for free... but they staggered the offers to different people as the year has gone on, and this started in January... I had mine swapped for free... and was able to keep the HR10 too.... Some people have gotten deals on HR2xs and then later were offered a free swap pout for their still active HR10, and got that as well...


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

jpl said:


> Granted, DirecTV has the right to raise prices - but don't have one of your senior officers, in an interview, tell the world 'we don't see the need to raise prices' only to turn around, a couple months later, to do that very thing. This wasn't something unknown to DirecTV at that time. The time difference between that statement and when they created that new tier was only a couple months, and they were well into their negotiations for the creation of these new HD channels.
> 
> BTW, anyone who doesn't see the creation of this new tier as raising prices - that's like Breyers telling me that they didn't raise the price of their ice cream - it's the same price it's been for years! Except that you now get 25% less in the package (I still find myself referring to those as 'gallons of ice cream'.)


They added channels that they never had before, and put them in there own teir so that not all customers had to pay for them. I don't care if they are HD or not, those extra channels were going to cost us... I for one am glad they didn't just increase the base package price across the board for all customers just to have those 5 channels total... and seriously, how much do those channels get watched in comparison to all the other HD channels that are no available? You know, Voom just got dumped by Dish.... I look at these 5 channels just like Voom... channels that are specialized, and would cost a different amount outside any regular tier, kind of like have HBO... Just my opinion... but how can anyone get so mad about those 5 channels... in comparison to all the other



jpl said:


> Edit - one more point - inkahauts mentioned that:
> 
> "And guess what, I think something is going to be happening in cable land too, for them to be able to go to switched digital..."
> 
> with regard to forcing customers to swap out boxes. While that will undoubtedly be true, there's one tiny little difference with this - cable doesn't charge you up front for those boxes, and they don't require a contract. Look, if I voluntarily upgrade equipment and I'm required to pay an up-front fee, and add to my contract that's one thing. But to be forced to do that because of an architectural change by my paid TV service provider is something else entirely. I would be required to seriously extend my contract because of changes THEY'RE forcing on me.


Again, Directv is swapping out ALL MPEG-2 HD equipment for free for all customers... The only thing was the 2 year commitment, and once you have this much hd... why jump to someone else that only has 8% of the HD channels Directv has (I'm being genrous with that 8%)

While your statement is true about the upfront fees.. In my area, since you have to pay at least $13 per HD DVR box, per month, and considering I will have my Directv service for many years, Directv is far cheaper in the long run, but lets just look at it over the course of 2 years...

I have 5 HD DVR's....
4 boxes X $5.00 mirror fee 
plus
$5 per month for DVR fee
Plus 169.99 per box (the price at costco which hasn't changed in 18 months) times 5 boxes....
for 24 months
Equalls
$1445.00

(this of course assume that someone would actually pay full pop for all 5 boxes... I did not... Got one for free and 2 others for $99..., so I haven't even spent that)

For cable... 
5 boxes time $13 a month for 24 months
equalls... 
$1560

And I didn't even begin on the ridiculous HD fees that they charge for programing... Even if you add HD extra pack and say Directv costs $15 a month, its still cheaper than my local company, and they have all 0f the locals plus 10 channels, 2 of which I wouldn't get!

And my cable company is cheaper than most in my area... with that said, I know some other states don't have the same rates, and that would make a money difference...


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

puckwithahalo said:


> not quite, at least through E* it is downloaded to your hardrive between 1 and 9 am mountain time, via satellite, and has nothing to do with a broadband connection. There are movies available via broadband download on certain receivers through Dish Online, but that has nothing to do with VoD


What you describe is the Dish On Demand feature. This should not be confused with VOD. DishONLINE is as close to VOD as DBS satellite gets.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Citivas said:


> In reply to some of INKAHAUTS points:
> 
> 1) You are giving DirecTV way to much credit in saying they always told everyone the program change would be in the Summer of 2007. Do you assume everyone goes online and finds official statements or forums of informed early adopters? Because I guarantee you not only were many (probably most) of the salespeople not saying that, but when pointedly asked they were saying very different answers. I vividly recall the unsolicited call I got from DirecTV during dinner saying that I had been a great customer and as a result they wanted to upgrade me to the TiVo 10-250 box (they didn't call it that - they just said "DirecTV's new HD digital video recorder") and upgrade my satellite dish for a 'small fee' ($199, versus the much higher rate the boxes were selling in at Best Buy, etc.) in anticipation of the upcoming dramatic expansion of their HD service to become the HD leader in the industry. This was FALL 2005! I asked when this expansion would occur and the person said, "starting by early next year (2006), with gradual additions and that by the end of 2006 they would have over 100 channels. I personally knew a little about the whole MPEG-2 vs. MPEG-4 thing at the time so I pointedly asked if the new box they were sending would work with all the new HD channels when they came out. Yes, of course, they said. I said, how was that possible given the MPEG-4 issue. They had never heard of it but put me on hold and came back after "talking to a supervisor" and said they would be sending a software upgrade to make it work. Frankly I was skeptical of both their timing and compatibility claims at the time, but I'm sure there were many other customers who had less reason to doubt them.


I have never heard of anyone saying that Directv was touting 100 HD channels by the end of 20066... If someone did that, they weren't reading the companies plans, because they never advertised anything of that nature as coming in 2006... it was always 2007.

Unfortunately, sales people will do anything for a sale... My main point in responding to your thread is that in my experience ( and I have dealt with Directv as well as many other providers out there in many different services) Directv always seemed to try the hardest to be the least sleazy, so I would never expect anythign better from anyone else... That's not saying they are perfect, god no... If only I were in charge... No one would ever be overpromised anything. I HATE that... ( I worked for a retailer that was selling Directv, and they had reps in often telling us to make sure customers new that the HR10 would have to be upgraded later on by the next gen to get the new channels... Obviously, that didn't happen everywhere) My main point in all this, I don't think that the company had the goal of misleading customers... I'm sure one heck of a lot of sales people did so that they could make their money and move on though...



Citivas said:


> 2) They moved channels we had been getting as token placeholders to a special extra fee tier as soon as they added the new ones despite telling many people they would not change the HD cost once we finally got the service we had been promised for so long. It doesn't matter to me how many or that they added others it was the principle of saying one thing and doing another. I've been a customer since they were below $30 / month (and didn't start raising the fees for YEARS, as opposed to more than annually now) so I understand price increases. That's not the point. The point is they need to be responsible for what their official agents (salespeople, CSR's, etc.) are telling and promising people and not be deceptive. Even if they had changed those channels 6 months later I would not have had an issue. It was the immediate change that reinforced their pattern of total disregard for commitments. Clearly from the other posts I'm not the only one who was sold that song and dance from DirecTV.


I see your point... But they diud leave the channels on for free for everyone until Jan 15th... so actually, they kind of did just what you said wouldn't have made you mad...



Citivas said:


> 3) As for your comment that you know DirecTV was "not pushing the Tivo's" only the retailers were, I don't know what to say since that is totally false. I have the paperwork to prove it since when THEY CALLED ME they tied my discounted 10-250 to a new membership commitment of course. They were aggressively pushing those boxes in 2005.


I'm getting years mixed up... 2005 yes.. 2006 no...



Citivas said:


> 4) As for "all is forgiven" because they are gradually calling people now to offer them the new box, that may be true but I don't see why it nullifies the false sale, especially when they made people pay hundreds for the previous box are making many people (since everyone gets a different offer with DirecTV and they like to deny they are even doing the offers they are giving others) pay for the new box too AND return the old box they already paid for AND only have the new box as a "lease" despite paying up-front for it AND sign-up for two more years to get it. Hardly a "make good" on the original sale that the TiVo boxes would work with the new service.


Never said it nullified the bad sale you had... but how much does it matter today? What have they said that you are questioning now? Kind of like what your experiencing with dish right now? and have you called and talked to your cable company yet? Ask them how many HD channels they have... and then call back again and talk to a second person and see what they say. I'm guessing it will be no different than Directv... (actually, I'd guess worse) My whole point in my post was be careful of where you go because based on what you said you will not like any company, and spending time and money to change to someone that is doing the same thing would be a wast e for you...



Citivas said:


> 5) As for the new Tivo features being late is Tivo's fault, I don't care. Even if it had been launched in Q1 2008, it was stupid to send postcards promoting the features in mid-2007. I actually did read the postcards fine print at the time and posted on the DirecTV forums even then (i.e. before they were late) about how lame it was. Why do you need to send me a proactive announcement of vaporware 9+ months before you expect to launch it, especially when its only a minor upgrade of a couple features? I remember dropping by TiVo's room at CES this January and asking them about it and they were totally annoyed DirecTv had sent that. They admitted at the time the product development hadn't even started on the features yet when they sent it and as of January they still had no idea when it was going to be ready. From their stated POV, DirecTV had held up their product upgrades on the boxes for years then suddenly releases this contracted upgrade and promotes it before they even start it. It would be amazing to paint DirecTV as a totally innocent party here.


Curious., where did you hear that Directv had held up their product development... and I don't disagree, the post cards were stupid, but I think you are giving Tivo way to much credit.. I think that the hireups at Tivo demanded the postcard, in an attempt to stem losses of subs by having Directv have features in their boxes that they didn't have so people might upgrade and then they'd loose money. Tivo is always praised for everything they do and can seem to do no wrong, yet they aren't even that great.... The only reason they are so popular is because they had a guy that got to the big money before ReplayTV did...



Citivas said:


> 6) First, I stated that I was disappointed by Dish's exaggerated, deceptive (which does not mean the same thing as false) promotions as well so it's no defense of DirecTV to say the others are just as bad. But that said I have found DirecTV to be the most aggressive deceptive advertiser in my experience in the last two years. That's just my opinion so there's no point in debating it.


True that. I am just saying from all the fliers and mailers I receive, Cable is by far the most deceptive in my area, so maybe things are just different in your neck of the woods...



Citivas said:


> 7) Cable companies are regional in the end, even when under the same corporate banner (like Comcast), so people's experiences will be very different. I can only speak to mine. Since my company covers my high speed bills, I spend 6 months (before DirecTV could offer me HD locals) simultaneously using Comcast here. And all but one of my neighbors still does. There was no minimum commitment term, the price was not promotional and never went up nor was it about to go up at the end, and the service was great. The HD looks spectacular, still better than anything I have seen from DirecTV. My only beef was I hated their Motorola DVR. I have talked at length with my neighbors about this and Comcast hasn't raised their package prices for them in years. So we just aren't having the bait-and-switch issue here. But even if they did, the prices would have to go up by $70/month before it would even be break-even with my combined DirecTV/Comcast rate now&#8230;


$70... Your lucky... period... Enjoy comcast...



Citivas said:


> 8) I don't just want to change just because of how DirecTV advertises and stated that in my previous reply. As a customer since the mid-90's I am just profoundly disappointed at how much the service quality deteriorated over time. They used to be GREAT and I can't tell you how many people I personally talked into converting. I haven't done that in a few years. I believe the significant change is traced to News Corp's ownership of them (and I say that as a one time News Corp employee). But whatever the reason, their CSR's and tech support went from actually pretty good to laughable if not dangerous (in the sense that they tell people things that are often exactly wrong), their customer service went from very good to this game where they tell and offer everyone something different and have a special department where they finally route you to change their tune only when you threaten to quit (to the point it has become a game for savvy customers), while at the same time their product went from something that was profoundly better than cable (and in my opinion at the time, Dish, which had much worse receiver UI's and features than DirecTV in the '90's) to something that was neck-and-neck. Same with the pricing. So all the upside went away at the same time that the downside grew. If you are a major sports fan I can see why they still have a distinctive edge. If you really do watch some of those specific HD channels that according to the ratings almost no one else does, sure, that makes sense. But for me, there is nothing DirecTV now has that I can't get elsewhere for less or comparable pricing and their policies do nothing to specifically value me as a long time customer so why should I give them loyalty they don't show me? Only after all this does their deceptive practices come into play to tip the scales for me. Combined with their complete disregard for the customer service experience, it just demonstrates a cynical pattern in my opinion. So even if I assume Comcast is just as bad, that would mean it should come down to price since they would all be equally bad. And then Comcast would win.


Then you should change...

Its just the opposite around here from what you are saying, but it sounds like you've done your homework... 
And by the way, is there any company that hasn't had a major dip in customer service overall over the last 4 years? I can't think of any....


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## puckwithahalo (Sep 3, 2007)

> What you describe is the Dish On Demand feature. This should not be confused with VOD. DishONLINE is as close to VOD as DBS satellite gets.


rereading your original post, and this one in context, i misunderstood what you were saying. I get so used to explaining that the DoD does not come through a phone line or ethernet connection, I jumped the gun a little bit. My apologies. You are correct, Dish Online is the closest it is going to get with current technology, and will never be available as true On Demand via the satellite.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

Civitas,

If you have Blu-ray and 1080p and the 1080p service offered has no value to you, what exactly is the purpose of your rant against Dish's roll-out of this service? You are the expert? You know that these VOD films will be compressed? You know the quality won't be up to snuff?


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

patmurphey said:


> Civitas,
> 
> If you have Blu-ray and 1080p and the 1080p service offered has no value to you, what exactly is the purpose of your rant against Dish's roll-out of this service? You are the expert? You know that these VOD films will be compressed? You know the quality won't be up to snuff?


My reply about having "I Am Legend" on Blu-ray (while technically true) was sarcastic -- I was emphasizing that what Dish has is not a 1080p "service" or even a channel or "catalog" of content but one single piece of content, and thus pointless if someone already has that exact content. Again, when I questioned three Dish reps they all said their is no ETA for even a second individual piece of content, let alone a catalog.

My point was that I DON'T know what their compression rate will be which is why I wanted to. I was simply explaining why it matters to know, not stating it won't be good. But you don't have to be an expert to know it will be compressed. All digital programming is, even Blu-Ray, a lot actually. So it's not a question of IF but HOW MUCH. Same is true of the HD channels Dish and DirecTV transmit. Both compress them more than most cable companies do and for some of us we can tell the difference. Others aren't so picky. To each his/her own. That said, only picky people would be able to tell the difference between 1080i and p on a good set anyway, so by definition a sincere 1080p service would be catering to the picky. Otherwise it is just a marketing ploy, which most people here seem to have concluded it is.

My "rant" was making three points: 1) That their 1080p TV ads were misleading; 2) That the customer and technical support people I encountered were pathetically bad (I clearly asked at the end of my first post whether this was an exception or the rule so I wasn't drawing any conclusions) and 3) That the combination of the above two items turned me off as a potential customer. The details about their 1080p offering were really incidental to the post and only have become an issue in the subsequent replies as some people are focusing on it. Had Dish not promoted their 1080p "service" I would have still checked them out in a month or so (when I get serious about replacing DirecTV when my term runs out) and I wouldn't have held the lack of it against them. Had I found that they had a little bullet point in their promotions about offering a few 1080p downloads I would have filed that way as a minor "pro" in their category.

My point was their promotion caused me to set an expectation I wouldn't have otherwise had, which then caused me to interact with their tech support and both things gave me a very negative "first impression." That's it. I wasn't universally condemning Dish and I was very clear to state that other providers had similar issues. It seems to me everyone gets very defensive of their own provider. If I don't like DirecTV I don't know what I'm talking about, if I have an issue with Dish I don't know what I'm talking about. Is it a pre-req of DSBTalk to be a sat provider cheerleader and think cable sucks? I think my being a sat TV user for 12.5 years entitles me to an opinion that doesn't have to automatically prefer sat over cable.

Opinions are great and I love that they are so varied. These are mine. I expected others. That said, I do think anyone spending time trying to defend Dish's ad as not misleading is being a bit of a Dish apologist. (And I see the same thing over on the DirecTV boards anytime anyone has anything negative to post there.) I bet you if we did a focus group and showed it to 100 people not associated with Dish and not experts on 1080p that, regardless of whether they had any clue what 1080p was, NONE of them in a survey would say that they believed one single movie being offered for non-real-time download was consistent with the message they got from the ad.


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## TP715 (Jan 15, 2007)

So what is the answer? Has anyone calculated the compression, via the bitrate, of the 1080p24 "I am Legend" VOD download?

This is easy to do for the normal Dish 1080i offerings. I just save it to the external hard drive and read the file size and then divide by the number of seconds in the movie. That usually gives you a bit rate for normal HD 1080i Dish programs/movies of about 5 to 8 Mbps (about the same rate that standard def DVDs are encoded at).

BluRay is 36 Mbps isn't it? Somehow I doubt the Dish VOD hits that rate. Has anyone measured it? Is there a way to do it? (Perhaps they don't allow saving VOD to the external drive, which would prevent using the technique above.)


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

You can not save VOD.


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## tcatdbs (Jul 10, 2008)

You can record it to a separate DVDR (480i) while your watching (anytime during 24 hour period), you just can't save it to DVR (which makes no sense to me since it's already on the HD...)



HobbyTalk said:


> You can not save VOD.


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## SHS (Jan 8, 2003)

1080p vs 1080i
Both are identical 1,920x1,080 resolution.
Interlaced formats such as 480i, 1080i sources get "painted" on the screen sequentially: the odd-numbered lines of resolution appear on your screen first, followed by the even-numbered lines--all within 1/30 of a second.
Progressive-scan formats such as 480p, 720p, and 1080p convey all of the lines of resolution sequentially in a single pass, which makes for a smoother, cleaner image, especially with sports and other motion-intensive content.
Real-world advantage of 1080p is not the extra sharpness you'll be seeing, but instead, the smaller, more densely packed pixels. In other words, you can sit closer to a 1080p television and not notice any pixel structure, such as stair-stepping along diagonal lines, or screen door effect. This advantage applies regardless of the quality of the source.
Far I know of the Dishnetwork High-Definition Receivers only do 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i with Component output only.
As for Video on Demand (VOD) saying 1080p you would need a Dishnetwork High-Definition Receivers that support the component video output option 1080p which by the way none of them do so that means one of two thing Dish is planing on some new HD Receivers that will do 1080p (Rigth that be day I roll over dead) or it was just a printing error on dishnetwork part for not giving the rigth info on what need for 1080p whichis you will not be allowed to send 1080p over anything but HDMI because of HDCP that enforced DRM carp so your monitor must support HDCP carp.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

SHS said:


> Far I know of the Dishnetwork High-Definition Receivers only do 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i with Component output only.


Along with the other things you appear to be wrong about, 1080p is part of the "turbo charged" firmware update to existing ViP DVRs.


> As for Video on Demand (VOD) saying 1080p you would need a Dishnetwork High-Definition Receivers that support the component video output option 1080p which by the way none of them do so that means one of two thing Dish is planing on some new HD Receivers that will do 1080p (Rigth that be day I roll of dead) or it was just a printing error on dishnetwork part for not giving the rigth info on what need for 1080p whichis you will not be allowed to send 1080p over anything but HDMI because of HDCP that enforced DRM carp so your monitor must support HDCP carp.


Component video does not support 1080p regardless of hardware or software.

DISH is using the fact that through HDMI protocols, the display can tell the receiver whether or not it is capable of 1080p. It is conceivable that not all "1080p capable" displays can handle 1080p/24 so those displays will fail the test.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

If SHS based his conclusions on the specs provided by Dish he would be correct. Their own current literature still says they do not support 1080p, as do their tech support . It seems to me it should have been more work to do the actual firmware update and produce the commercials than it would have taken to just change a few lines of text on a website or send an email to their tech support but I guess not...


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## SHS (Jan 8, 2003)

harsh said:


> Along with the other things you appear to be wrong about, 1080p is part of the "turbo charged" firmware update to existing ViP DVRs.Component video does not support 1080p regardless of hardware or software.


Hmm that odd harsh specs provided by Dish is correct so how could I be wrong?.



harsh said:


> DISH is using the fact that through HDMI protocols, the display can tell the receiver whether or not it is capable of 1080p. It is conceivable that not all "1080p capable" displays can handle 1080p/24 so those displays will fail the test.


harsh you are way wrong component is compatible with 1080p as long as the build-in hardware decoder suopprt 1080p like Sigma Designs Media Processor but they block 1080p over component even knowing it in official spec and if I recall rigth I do belive that the PS3/360 will do 1080p over component.


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Snipped
> 
> Again, Directv is swapping out ALL MPEG-2 HD equipment for free for all customers... The only thing was the 2 year commitment, and once you have this much hd... why jump to someone else that only has 8% of the HD channels Directv has (I'm being genrous with that 8%)


BTW are you saying that nobody has more than 8% of the HD DirecTV has? Around me Dishnetwork, & Fios are close and the Cable company isn't that far behind. Dishnetwork is ahead in HBO HD and behind in sports afaik. What does this mean? It means your choice depends on what you like sports or other channels.

DirecTV is swapping out the HD MPEG2 receivers that are left rather than lose those customers. The thing everybody skips over is their delay doing so. IMHO they delayed the free swap until they felt that only those that wouldn't pay upfront first were left.

Or to put it another way everybody that is into HD has already paid the lease fee to get the new HD right away. They substantially reduced the numbers of free upgrades they would have to do by not offering free as soon as they started doing MPEG4 HD.

Not the best for customers, but a sound bottom line type of business decision.

DirecTV is a typical Big corporation type of business. 
To a certain extent Dishnetwork is still being run as more of a mom & pop type of business by Charlie Ergen. Which explains the carriage disagreements that happen with Dishnetwork.

When it is your own business you watch things closer than you do when you are only a manager.


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## patmurphey (Dec 21, 2006)

SHS,

Dish is phasing in VOD downloaded from satellite in 1080p. Output wil be via HDMI to 1080p sets capable of displaying 1080p. Pointing to old specs isn't going to change that. 1080p via component is irrelevant to this discussion because neither Dish nor its boxes are ever going to offer it because of DRM or hardware limitations - it doesn't matter.


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