# EchoStar 5 is alive.



## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Tps 15, 16 and 17 are in QPSK. 

More info later, probably 

None of the would be channels are available. I can tell you they are numbered between 7000 and 9399 except for 1 which is 9901 (D1000).


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

That's at 129 slot, right?


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

Is E*5 a healthy bird?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

mwgiii said:


> That's at 129 slot, right?


Yes.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> Is E*5 a healthy bird?


Difficult to answer. It is making good signals here.


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## mwgiii (Jul 19, 2002)

Cyclone said:


> Is E*5 a healthy bird?


Info I found about E5:
http://www.sat-index.com/failures/index.html?http://www.sat-index.com/failures/echo5.html


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Oh no! .. Don't tell me: "time to put up another dish soon"


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Difficult to answer. It is making good signals here.


Anything on any of those QPSK carriers? (I assume they are not in the NIT yet.)

I wonder how hard they are pushing toward next Monday? Trying to show progress after spending most of the year saying wait until later in the year ...

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Reread the first post.


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

heh I knew it was gonna be used for locals...


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Yeh, but there are many transponders there.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Tps 15, 16 and 17 are in QPSK.
> 
> More info later, probably
> 
> None of the would be channels are available. I can tell you they are numbered between 7000 and 9399 except for 1 which is 9901 (D1000).


So, cue up Paul Harvey and ask for the rest of the story ...

How many channels and what groupings? Are there any callsigns in EPG of interest?

JL


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Darkman said:


> Oh no! .. Don't tell me: "time to put up another dish soon"


That's what the D1000 is for.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I posted this before but I think Dish is going to use the 129 slot for the 36 markets with split locals . They will put them there and issue new Dish 1000 sat dishes to the subs in those dmas. They then will free up space on the 110/119 sat slots for moving the Voom channels to including maybe, the remaining 11 channels. Then they might even turn them on early. This would make the FCC happy since they ordered Dish to end the split locals on two dishes thing by next summer. People across the country would be able to receive all the hd channels with a simple Dish 500 sat dish. I know that would mean a lot of dish 1000 installs but it would make sense since they added the 129 slot on most of their receivers today , including the 942. 

My question would be what will they use Rainbow 1 and the spotbeams there for? Will they move this bird else where and if they do can they refocus the spotbeams? Or leave it where it is and use it for east coast hd locals?

I sure hope they give us some answers on the tech chat !


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

Actually the split locals case wouldn't require that many dish 1000 setups.

For the folks that already have that second satellite dish, a simple re-point to 129 would be all that's necessary


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## juan ellitinez (Jan 31, 2003)

BFG said:


> Actually the split locals case wouldn't require that many dish 1000 setups.
> 
> For the folks that already have that second satellite dish, a simple re-point to 129 would be all that's necessary


 ummmmmmmmmmmm the fcc ordered all locals to be on one dish.. with your plan wouldn't they would still be split????? between the dish 500 and 129?


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

I need to look up the specific language (and that ain't happening tonight), but I *think* the SHVREA says that all local channels have to have the ABILITY to be received on one DISH. I am not sure it says specifically that Dish MUST provide the one dish to existing customers!

But I think this is a moot (not mute -sic.) point. If E*10 goes up as planned, I am fairly certain that the increased spot beam capability will take care of this self-imposed problem.

See ya
Tony


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

juan ellitinez said:


> ummmmmmmmmmmm the fcc ordered all locals to be on one dish.. with your plan wouldn't they would still be split????? between the dish 500 and 129?


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

The law says that the analog locals must be on one dish, not split between say a dish 500 (110/119) and a side sat to say 61.5 or 148 sat. It doesn't say that a single dish for all programming both national and locals, even though a dish 1000 would accomplish this . As long as the locals are together on one dish, it can be a side sat dish to 129 or 61.5 or 148 etc , and the main national programming can stay on a dish500. 

The main thing is to vacate those locals on the main 110/119 sats for the 36 markets effected and you have room for the Voom channels all 21 of them. Not saying they would activate all of them , but if they did they would definately have the advantage over the competition. 

This would help kill two birds with one stone. Fcc compliance for locals on one dish and move Voom to the main dish500 where most all of the customers could see it easily.


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## Mike Richardson (Jun 12, 2003)

Moving Voom to your primary slots kinda sucks though I mean they take up so much room. And SD channels already look like crap.

Rainbow 1's spotbeams could deliver East Coast HD locals, they could even use a 13" DISH like Rainbow once boasted they would use.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

It is Congress that is ordering E* to have a one dish solution ... not the FCC.

If E* is simply moving the wing channels to 129 and leaving the existing 110-119 part of the split alone I believe that they will be in trouble again. Yes the rule says "one dish" not "one orbital location" ... but the FCC and then Congress was pretty annoyed at E* for their split market solution.

That being said, it sounds just like E* to do that - move just the secondary channels to 129 and leave SOME customers with just the primary channels while others have all. (I'd like to see an audit of all 'split' customers to make sure they can get ALL their local channels!)

If they do this kind of split people who already (appropriately) have a wing dish and a little skill could repoint their own dish and not involve E*. If E* goes out I hope that they replace the Dish500 with a Dish1000. That is what Congress asked for - a ONE DISH solution. Install the one dish!

JL


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> The main thing is to vacate those locals on the main 110/119 sats for the 36 markets effected and you have room for the Voom channels all 21 of them. Not saying they would activate all of them , but if they did they would definately have the advantage over the competition.
> 
> This would help kill two birds with one stone. Fcc compliance for locals on one dish and move Voom to the main dish500 where most all of the customers could see it easily.


The 36 markets that have split locals are almost all major markets and besides for those offered as distant networks they are on spotbeams. Besides having to install D1000s for all the folks who have locals in these 36 markets (very expensive for Dish) this may not free up TPs. For example, locals from a single non-split market maybe provided on a spotbeam using TP 2 at 110 therefore even if all the rest of the locals offered on TP 2 at 110 were split locals on spotbeams, TP 2 would not be freed up. In addition, some of these split markets are in the northeast that have low elevation angles for 129 W. Now Dish could move the split locals from 61.5 and 148 which would free up space on the wings but why would Dish do that now when it is expected that E-10 will solve the problem in a few months and what would Dish use that space for on the wings ? In addition, I believe the SHVERA legislation requires that Dish provide everyone who receives locals the single dish to receive all their locals. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

What Dish could do is move the non-distant network locals on CONUS TPs off of 110 W and put those on 129 W. This would free up 3 TPs at 110, enough for at least 18 HD channels using MPEG-4. These markets are:

Little Rock, AR 
Knoxville, TN
Roanoke, VA
Jackson, MS
Lexington, KY 
Springfield, MO

I believe all of these markets would have reasonable elevation angles for 129 W and Little Rock and Roanoke are 2 of the split markets. If Dish were to do this, they could stockpile D1000s in these areas and perhaps get installers from nearby areas to temporarily help with the D1000 conversion. I don't see Dish doing this either unless they had a planned near term use of those 3 TPs at 110 W.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I was not saying to move just the extra split locals to the 129 slot. I meant to move ALL of the dmas effected to the 129 slot, both main and split locals. I don't know if there is enough room to do this, but it would make sense if they could do it. Then you could empty out most of the 110 and 119 locals to this new slot at 129 and make room for all of the Voom channels and they even might start broadcasting the 10 we don't have yet. 

They could start doing the change out hitting each city with upgrades to the dish 1000. They could do simulcasting that city on both the 129 and the main slots till they upgrade everyone in that area. Then they could turn off that city on the main slots and side sat slots. Do each city till that way till you empty out the main slots and you can make enough room for the Voom hd channels. Once they go to mpeg4 they will have even more room on the main slots for hd. I would think that they want to keep hd on the main dish500 sat dish. More people could access this even if they don't have locals.

I know they need a lot of Dish 1000 sat dishes to do this but I am sure there are a ton in warehouses somewhere. Just imagine all the commitments for a year of programming that they will get with the dish 1000 upgrades. Just think of how busy the installers will be in the upcoming months. 

If they don't do this, I wonder what they will use Echosat 5 for at the 129 slot? I still say they will use it for analog locals. I just don't know if it will be the locals I have mentioned above in the 36 markets with split locals.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Whatever they are doing they are not done. Only three transponders hot (so far) would be at most 36 channels (one would be the 9901 slate and one would be the EPG, leaving 34 channels).

But E5 is alive and apparently local.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Actually, more then 3 transponders are active. Those three is full functioning - have NID,TIDs,PIDs, etc.
Using PCI card I can lock to other transponders: 3, 4, 5, 7, 14, 18, 20, 21. No PMT is there, so all channels should be define manually.
Same time spectrum analyzer shows much more activity. Other transponders could not have packets for lock or perhaps using 8PSK modulation.
I'm in process of identifying the numbers.

Interesting note - transponder 17 care software for 301d and 301e, 2700, 311, 811, D351 and beta for 411.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

I was wondering what was taking you guys so long today to notice this...the bird was alive and active for a full 2 hours today before John's first post...


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Sure, they are; but who will care about your job that time  ?

What spectrum analyzer shows using 1m dish:


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## lvkewlkid (Jul 4, 2005)

what about moving all the local channels to E*5, then with the freed up space put all the rest of the SD channels that they dont have on 110/119, after that add the VOOM channels.

More people would want more SD than the VOOM.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I was wondering what was taking you guys so long today to notice this...the bird was alive and active for a full 2 hours today before John's first post...


You don't mind if I go to work occasionally?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

In your speculations, you may want to consider that there may only be 16 transponders available at 129. That is the entire capacity of EchoStar 5 in Dual Power mode.


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

Just took a look at Tony's channel chart.
With the exception of the Erie, PA locals; all the channels mirrored at 129 are split locals channels from 61.5 and 148. Looks like they're using 129 to meet the one dish rule.
Erie is probably being shifted there too, as it's a fairly new market, and shouldn't require much to move the few that have signed up for locals already.


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## jrbdmb (Sep 5, 2002)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I was not saying to move just the extra split locals to the 129 slot. I meant to move ALL of the dmas effected to the 129 slot, both main and split locals. I don't know if there is enough room to do this, but it would make sense if they could do it. Then you could empty out most of the 110 and 119 locals to this new slot at 129 and make room for all of the Voom channels and they even might start broadcasting the 10 we don't have yet.


Then Dish would have to install a new Dish 1000 for *all* subs in the split-locals markets, which happen to be most of the biggest markets in the U.S. This will *never* happen. As said elsewhere, Dish will move the minor locals to 129, install a Dish 1000 for those few subs who ask for it, and meet the letter (if not the spirit) of the new law.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Bounce this around a little. Consider that the One Dish requirement could be met within a week or a couple of months. They do not have to replace existing second dishes, but those could be left to attrition. If all of the channels are in position so that any new subscriber could get them on one dish the requirement is met. Not sure if the SuperDISH is completely out of the picture on this as there are substantial numbers of subs involved.
There are locals from 121 and 105 on there.

The other thing is who says they are moving any channels? They could be just mirroring and not removing the old postion for quite some time.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

jrbdmb said:


> Then Dish would have to install a new Dish 1000 for *all* subs in the split-locals markets, which happen to be most of the biggest markets in the U.S. This will *never* happen. As said elsewhere, Dish will move the minor locals to 129, install a Dish 1000 for those few subs who ask for it, and meet the letter (if not the spirit) of the new law.


 You know I discussed this last year when they law, changed about the one dish for locals rule and you would have thought I was talking like a heratic. People jumped all over me about that one. This would be the way Dish would comply and it would be much easier than to move all the locals on the 110/119 sats to to 129. They love sticking their tongue out at the law and the FCC.  They would still have to do Dish 1000 upgrades to all the 36 markets that have the split locals, which will cost them some $$. I guess they will do the upgrades with customer commitments to programming for another year. IF this is the way they plan to do the locals for analog then I imagine they will do the same thing all over again for the upcoming hd locals as well.

The only problem I see with this, is that Dish will most likely not force people to upgrade and they will still be out of compliance with the new law. I can see Dish sending you a letter in your mail saying "you need a new dish 1000 and call to upgrade now." Most people will still say no thanks, I don't need locals that I don't watch anyway . Of course Dish will lose less money that way too. The less dish 1000 upgrades they have to do , the better for their bottom line.

I still say that Dish needs to put the Voom channels all on the main dish sats: 110/119. I have seen where Charlie has said that Dish will have all their programming on one dish by 2008. IF they don't find a way to do this I guess we will all have to have at least 2 - 3 dishes to get all locals , national programming , and hd too.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Bounce this around a little. Consider that the One Dish requirement could be met within a week or a couple of months. They do not have to replace existing second dishes, but those could be left to attrition. If all of the channels are in position so that any new subscriber could get them on one dish the requirement is met. Not sure if the SuperDISH is completely out of the picture on this as there are substantial numbers of subs involved.
> There are locals from 121 and 105 on there.
> 
> The other thing is who says they are moving any channels? They could be just mirroring and not removing the old postion for quite some time.


 Maybe they can take all the side Dishes and move them towards the 61.5 sat and install dp44 switches at the same time they do the dish 1000 upgrades. Then you would be ready for hd and your locals. They might just decide to keep the Voom channels on the 61.5 and mirror them to 148. If they do move off the split locals on those two birds then they will have to us them for something besides internationals.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> The only problem I see with this, is that Dish will most likely not force people to upgrade and they will still be out of compliance with the new law. I can see Dish sending you a letter in your mail saying "you need a new dish 1000 and call to upgrade now." Most people will still say no thanks, I don't need locals that I don't watch anyway . Of course Dish will lose less money that way too. The less dish 1000 upgrades they have to do , the better for their bottom line.


No; in this scenario, the less dish 1000 upgrades they have to do, the less customers they will have.

The law requires Dish Network to install the new equipment at no charge to the customer (and that means no commitment, either). If Dish Network does not provide the equipment, Dish Network is forced to cut-off the locals to that customer. The customer and Dish Network does not have a choice in this matter.


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## David_Levin (Apr 22, 2002)

Won't E10 be launched in time to deal with the split locals problem? This would eliminate the need for customer service calls.

Is the ability to do 8PSK dependant on the satellite? Can E5 do 8PSK?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

Mark Lamutt said:


> I was wondering what was taking you guys so long today to notice this...the bird was alive and active for a full 2 hours today before John's first post...


I haven't been home, but I do plan on doing some screwing around this weekend and seeing if I can even get 129 from here in the North East.

My friend tells me I probably won't be able to get it and says 121 is almost impossible to get from here.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

garypen said:


> That's what the D1000 is for.


I like 'em separate Plates though


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

David_Levin said:


> Won't E10 be launched in time to deal with the split locals problem? This would eliminate the need for customer service calls.
> 
> Is the ability to do 8PSK dependant on the satellite? Can E5 do 8PSK?


E*10 may be launched in time for the deadline, but they may want some limited head start on the DISH1000.

With no specific figures, I would suspect E*5 can do a limited number of 8PSK. EchoStar 1, 2 and 3 have done some.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Greg Bimson said:


> No; in this scenario, the less dish 1000 upgrades they have to do, the less customers they will have.
> 
> The law requires Dish Network to install the new equipment at no charge to the customer (and that means no commitment, either). If Dish Network does not provide the equipment, Dish Network is forced to cut-off the locals to that customer. The customer and Dish Network does not have a choice in this matter.


The law does not require them to do the install for free, if the locals are available on one dish. That would be the difference between new and existing subs. One might also assume all existing subs have been upgraded to the 2 slot config.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

Scott Greczkowski said:


> I haven't been home, but I do plan on doing some screwing around this weekend and seeing if I can even get 129 from here in the North East.
> 
> My friend tells me I probably won't be able to get it and says 121 is almost impossible to get from here.


Realize that Dish offers locals for Providence, RI and Portland, ME from the 121 W slot.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Hey, rocatman any activity on the AMC 16 move request?


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Hey, rocatman any activity on the AMC 16 move request?


I just checked the FCC Website this morning and the FCC has not moved on it yet. Both Dish (Echostar) and SES Americom have applications in at the FCC related to this move.


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## Greg Bimson (May 5, 2003)

JohnH said:


> The law does not require them to do the install for free, if the locals are available on one dish. That would be the difference between new and existing subs. One might also assume all existing subs have been upgraded to the 2 slot config.


Let's just make sure we are talking about the same thing:

In Mike's example, he'd move all split market local channels from both their wing slots and their 110/119 spots to 129. If this is the case, then yes, the customer could be responsible for obtaining a Dish 1000.

However, if moving only the local channels on the wings (61.5 or 148) to 129 for markets which have locals on the main slot at 110/119, Dish Network will have to upgrade anyone in a market receiving local channels from 129 with a Dish 1000. Those customers that refuse to upgrade, either because Dish Network charges for install, or because the customer doesn't want the dish, will lose local channels. That makes this a lose-lose situation.


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## garypen (Feb 1, 2004)

Darkman said:


> I like 'em separate Plates though


For me, the less crap sticking out of the house, the better. All that jizz looks kinda trailer-park/survivalist/just-plain-ugly to me. Believe it or not, a lot of people (most?) feel that way. Of course, most members of a satellite TV forum might have a different perspective.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Greg Bimson said:


> Let's just make sure we are talking about the same thing:
> 
> In Mike's example, he'd move all split market local channels from both their wing slots and their 110/119 spots to 129. If this is the case, then yes, the customer could be responsible for obtaining a Dish 1000.
> 
> However, if moving only the local channels on the wings (61.5 or 148) to 129 for markets which have locals on the main slot at 110/119, Dish Network will have to upgrade anyone in a market receiving local channels from 129 with a Dish 1000. Those customers that refuse to upgrade, either because Dish Network charges for install, or because the customer doesn't want the dish, will lose local channels. That makes this a lose-lose situation.


I agree somewhat with your conclusion for the given scenario, but the reality seems to be that side slot locals are being mirrored at 129 and some entire markets from 105 and 121 may be mirrored there as well.

As long as the side slot locals remain in place, I see no need to reconfigure those existing subs which have 2 dishes. At least, not in a big rush or mandatory thing.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

garypen said:


> For me, the less crap sticking out of the house, the better. All that jizz looks kinda trailer-park/survivalist/just-plain-ugly to me. Believe it or not, a lot of people (most?) feel that way. Of course, most members of a satellite TV forum might have a different perspective.


Cuz.. We are not Normal


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Dish will take the smaller DMAs and mirror them entirely on the 129, which will give them time to "upgrade" these subs dishes. Once these DMAs have been moved to the 129, they will move the split locals, like DC, to the 110/119 and with E*10, they will have little problem with being in compliance. The smart thing to do is to keep the large customer base locals on the 110/119 and to move the much smaller DMAs to the 105/121/129 locations. Then, they could use R*1 for the east coast Digital/HD LiLs and the 129 or 148/157 for the west coast. The 157 would be a good location for locals in Cali, Oregon and Wash and Hawaii and Alaska once they go live with it


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I note that my 301s and 501 can only select TPs 15, 16 and 17 on 129 for signal strength test.

I tried a "mad scientist" setup but have been unable to get 129 on my 105 ... I did briefly get the signal while hand holding the LNB in front of the dish, but have not discovered the sweet spot needed.

It looks like they will have something non-HD to talk about on their big HD MPEG4 Tech Chat this Monday. 

JL


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

justalurker said:


> So, cue up Paul Harvey and ask for the rest of the story ...
> 
> How many channels and what groupings? Are there any callsigns in EPG of interest?
> 
> JL


Those channels are listed now at TNGTony's chart.. on chart itself and in the latest changes as well: http://ekb.dbstalk.com/dishlist.htm

(there is one small boo-boo on chart though .. he entered D1000 on chart as channel 9900, when it's 9901 however...)


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

I have reason to believe there will be some HD to talk about on Monday's Tech Forum. 

Whether they talk about it or not is another question?

My 6000 likes some of the transponders that my FTA don't see. 

BTW: 4-Sat SW 21 with 110, 119, 61.5 and 129 Legacy.


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## chaddux (Oct 10, 2004)

JohnH said:


> I have reason to believe there will be some HD to talk about on Monday's Tech Forum.
> 
> Whether they talk about it or not is another question?


Such a tease!


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

I edited the post, but there is not much I can say beyond that, as the channels were not in the System Tables at last check.

I wish they would turn on the D1000 channel.


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## chaddux (Oct 10, 2004)

JohnH said:


> I wish they would turn on the D1000 channel.


Speaking of that, is there any rhyme or reason to how they pick those channels? It seems like channel 1000 would be more logical than 9901.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

D500 channel is 9900 after all...
so D1000 = 9901 .. maybe logical nuff for some.. or to them anyhow


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## chaddux (Oct 10, 2004)

Darkman said:


> D500 channel is 9900 after all...
> so D1000 = 9901 .. maybe logical nuff for some.. or to them anyhow


Yeah but why did they pick 9900 for the DISH500? Logical to put the D1000 next to D500 but the 9900 range just seems to be an odd choice.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

if 1000 is good for D1000, .. to be next to D1000 - D500 would then be out of place also..

Can't win, eh?


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## chaddux (Oct 10, 2004)

Darkman said:


> if 1000 is good for D1000, .. to be next to D1000 - D500 would then be out of place also..
> 
> Can't win, eh?


I said it's logical but it doesn't HAVE to be next to it.

If someone wanted to check to see if their 129 connection was working on their DISH1000, they wouldn't think, "Hey, I'll turn it to 9901" unless they already knew that was the channel to check since 9901 has no logical connection to "129" or "1000."


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Especially after sticking 900 as the 121 test and 7000 as the 105 test channels.

900 for 121 makes some sense, since there are internationals on 121 close to that channel. But 7000? I guess they needed to put it somewhere - and as the lowest local that is somewhere!

I like 9901 for the D1000 test channel.

Logical would put all the "test channels" together in the 9900's for people to find. Just go to 9900+ in the guide to see what birds were available. It would also be logical to have separate 61.5 and 148 test channels (instead of relying on 580).

JL


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## chaddux (Oct 10, 2004)

justalurker said:


> Especially after sticking 900 as the 121 test and 7000 as the 105 test channels.


Good point. It seems like picking a single range for all of them would make it easier for a user with a multi-orbital location installation to check without having to go to any installation menus.

EDIT: It appears you edited it while I was replying to essentially say what I was going to say. But I definitely agree. One range would be so much simpler.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

chaddux said:


> Speaking of that, is there any rhyme or reason to how they pick those channels? It seems like channel 1000 would be more logical than 9901.


They would have to do another round of receiver upgrades as you cannot enter 1000.


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## datwell (Jan 26, 2005)

larrystotler said:


> Dish will take the smaller DMAs and mirror them entirely on the 129, which will give them time to "upgrade" these subs dishes. Once these DMAs have been moved to the 129, they will move the split locals, like DC, to the 110/119 and with E*10, they will have little problem with being in compliance. The smart thing to do is to keep the large customer base locals on the 110/119 and to move the much smaller DMAs to the 105/121/129 locations. Then, they could use R*1 for the east coast Digital/HD LiLs and the 129 or 148/157 for the west coast. The 157 would be a good location for locals in Cali, Oregon and Wash and Hawaii and Alaska once they go live with it


Larry: I sure hope you are right about this as it would fit me perfectly!

--Doug


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JohnH said:


> <skip>
> 
> My 6000 likes some of the transponders that my FTA don't see.
> 
> ...


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Most likely 8PSK. I am in a different mode now. Use your spectrum analyzer and FTA to determine which ones they are. I'll check again tomorrow evening.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The transponders still tuning by engineers, I would say the satellite running 'in engineering mode'. I found one transponder#13 full of stuffing packets (100% of bandwith occupied by PID 0x1FFF) after a few attemps to tweak settings: 8PSK, 20000, 2/3. 
We should wait when Dish will finish all the tests and changing parameters.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Every Transponder has some Stuffing(Null) Packets. That is what is used to fill up the unused space and provide a buffer for the Statistical Multiplexer to function. The Modulation mode is what we were discussing, not what channels are there.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

chaddux said:


> Speaking of that, is there any rhyme or reason to how they pick those channels? It seems like channel 1000 would be more logical than 9901.


Every time channels have been introduced in a new thousand range (8000 locals, 7000 locals, 6000 Sirius) the receivers have had to have an update to be able to select the new channels. Most channels are 3 digits and when the third digit is pressed the receiver tunes to that channel. If you entered 1000 you would end up on 101 (closest to 100). The receiver would need an update to make it wait for a 4th digit if the 1st is 1. I have no idea how they settled on 9901.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

often .. (forgot in which cases.. maybe at some reboot.. or a card pull/push back.. or making new combination of birds at sw21 say maybe...i forgot) .. when TV comes back - it would end up by itself on one of those channels (showing that the connection to that bird IS OK - examples: "Congratulation - you have DISH 500", "Congratulation - you have a 105 SUPER Dish.... and in this case probably would say "Congratulation - you have a DISH 1000" 

I think it happens actually .. ya.. when putting new bird to your configuration (such as to a switch).. and then after switch check .. those channels would pop up by themselves.. - so the channel # for those in that case would be only simbolic.. as the receiver would go to one of those channels on it's own...
.. Something like that .. anyhow


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Since using FTA cards for define transponder parameters in 8PSK mode is time consuming process, would you provide some tips for good guessing of spectrum analyzer pictures ?
I'm pretty confident in distinguish analog and QPSK transponders, but not 8PSK.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JohnH said:


> In your speculations, you may want to consider that there may only be 16 transponders available at 129. That is the entire capacity of EchoStar 5 in Dual Power mode.


Is it remark to specrum analyzer pictures ? LOL


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

I am happy to report 129 is coming in loud and clear here in Connecticut. (Well the signal is anyways still nothing up there which I can view on my 942.

I am actually amazed I am picking it up here so well considering how low on the horizion 129 is.


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

A friend of mines got a dish300 pointed at 129. His 6000 picks up 16 transponders with signal strength in the point dish screen. He said other than the channels already listed on dishchannelchart he doesnt see any other new channels yet...


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Scott - what signal strengths are you seeing from 129 up there?


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## Scott Greczkowski (Mar 21, 2002)

It varies. On some transponders its in the 70's and on others it's in the 80's.

On the 942 there is only a few transponders it lets you check signal strength on.

I will screw with it more later, we had a bad storm last night and need to go clean up some fallen trees and branches which fell.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

P Smith said:


> Is it remark to specrum analyzer pictures ? LOL


Not especially, but it looks like there are 16 powered up. If you get Tp numbers on those and subtract the QPSK, you should have 8PSKs remaining. Seemed like 4 or 5 to me.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Let me try to count them:
- total 22 transponders are alive by pictures ( one of them #10, I see have low power )
- three transponders are full functioning: 15,16,17
- DVB card (QPSK) can lock into 11 transponders including three above: 3,4,5,7,14,15,16,17,18,20,21
- 8PSK card (6000) lock transponder #13 with that non-standard [for Dish] SR=20000

I would wait when they will finish before my conclusion - there are ten transponders left for speculation.

BTW, that transponder#13 on picture looks pretty obvious because of null packets only. I mean no flat top there.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

You must be seeing some from IA 7. Only 16 are powered up on EchoStar 5.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Using circular Dish LNBF with LOF=11250 MHz ?

IA7 by your reports: 
tp04 - 11780 H
tp09 - 11880 V
tp13 - 11952 V
tp20 - 12100 H

Using LOF 11250, what will see from IA7 ? What IFs ?

Take in account 22-4=18 not 16, plus review that pictures from screen. 
We don't know for sure what the bird really emitting; at least not detailed engineeng report. I'll try to move a little the dish, those 'IA7' should changing different way I guess. Well, I could mount back that linear LNBF and make a pictures.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Nay, IA7 have DIFFERENT patterns. Take a look; btw there are much more then 4 muxes .


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Here is a list of the Tps which are powered up at this time.

Odd: 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15, 17 and 21.

Even: 4, 6, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20.

Of those, 3, 5, 7, 15, 17, 21, 4, 14, 16, 18 and 20 are QPSK

The remaining (9, 13, 6, 10 and 12) are assumed to be 8PSK as they lock on the 6000 and not the QPSK FTA.

BTW: All of the QPSKs appear to have channels, many of them with 12 channels each. Almost full already.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm lost in your source - how you can be so straight if we have only our side monitoring ? Is there some engineer from Dish who feeding you ?  Then some controversial REAL info should be commented by him.

Powered too: 1, 11, 19 and 2, 8, 22 ; can be not modulated , but POWERED for sure ( check the pictures ). Could be spare transponders.

I would say 9, 10, 14 suffering from underpower ( see the pictures ).

That #21 is little mistery for me, two days ago it was there, yesrterday I didn't see it on spectrum analyzer. (!?) Perhaps they still testing.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Perhaps they stopped working on it for the weekend and things are as they were on friday. 

I have only been doing this for 7 years. There are ways that involve using only receivers. A spectrum analyzer is not needed to tell what is coming down from up there. They are useful tools, but only if they are setup and calibrated correctly.

Are we having fun yet?


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Yes! - Just from listening to two of you!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JohnH said:


> Perhaps they stopped working on it for the weekend and things are as they were on friday.
> 
> I have only been doing this for 7 years. There are ways that involve using only receivers. A spectrum analyzer is not needed to tell what is coming down from up there. They are useful tools, but only if they are setup and calibrated correctly.
> 
> Are we having fun yet?


Sure !

Would be interesting to learn from you some of the technics. If you don't mind to share the specialized knowledge, I would admit you for such deep technical discussions to other forums, like DVBNetwork [dvbn.happysat.org] or by your choice.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

or in Email maybe? 

hmmm - "DVBNetwork [dvbn.happysat.org]" - i just tried it .. and got in.. i guess i am registered there already after all ( Didn't even remember when  )


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

It is not all that technical.

Use Analog receiver to check for carrier level or sign of a signal.

Use QPSK FTA to check for digital lock.

Use PCI card to check for presence of channel PIDs.

Use 6000 to check for lock of signals which are not QPSK.

All signals accounted for? Yes.

If I really wanted to take the time, I could determine what local channels are up there which have not been posted and are not in the system tables.

One happens to be CBS from Clarksburg, WVA.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

mmmmm.. Do tell us John.. Do tell us.. - Don't be shy


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

So, 5 8PSK transponders... Lets see, the voom channels on 61.5 take up 4. But theres really no gain in moving them to 129 unless everyone gets a d1000. Could also be the remaining Voom channels. 

Could also support 2-3 HD local markets. NY, LA, somewhere in between? 


I guess the question is, will they be in mpeg4?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Darkman said:


> mmmmm.. Do tell us John.. Do tell us.. - Don't be shy


I figured you would have spun one of your dishes that way and have a screen shot of 9901 by now. Or are you having trouble deciding which dish to spin. 

At this point we should be careful in our speculation. Even IF the complete list of channels includes all split locals from 61.5 and 148 plus CBS HD East, CBS HD West, HD Demo and the Voom MPEG2 channels (which is quite possible) I would never make the assumption that 129 is their permanent home. (Although it would be nice for those with locals on 148 to just repoint their Dish300's to 129 to continue receiving their channels plus Voom MPEG2.)

Until something permanent is announced IT DOESN'T MATTER what JohnH and PSmith find there. Look at the history of 105 ... all the wonderful speculation about HD programming that was to be there all washed down the drain before anyone but hackers could view the feeds. What JohnH and PSmith are showing us does show a hint of what E* is working on ... but remember it is all through a glass dimly.

It is interesting to see what they are trying to get working there. Perhaps one day we will see the list I suggested above all 'available to customers'. But the next piece in this puzzle is yet to be fit in, and that is E10. No matter what our assumptions based on E5 today, E10 tomorrow will lead to certain change. (Even E5 tomorrow may be different enough to change the assumptions!)

Kick back, relax and enjoy the show. It is nice to see progress in action.

JL


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

hokieengineer said:


> So, 5 8PSK transponders... Lets see, the voom channels on 61.5 take up 4. But theres really no gain in moving them to 129 unless everyone gets a d1000. Could also be the remaining Voom channels.


Four for existing Voom MPEG2, one for CBS-HD East + CBS-HD West + HD Demo. Five transponders for all the public MPEG2 HD that are on the wings. Just enough that when they replace a customer's Dish500+Dish300 system with a "One Dish" Dish1000 system they don't have to support the wing dish (unless the customer has internationals).

Speculation ... but I do not consider 61.5, 148 or 129 to be the permanent home of any national HD.

JL


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

justalurker said:


> Four for existing Voom MPEG2, one for CBS-HD East + CBS-HD West + HD Demo. Five transponders for all the public MPEG2 HD that are on the wings. Just enough that when they replace a customer's Dish500+Dish300 system with a "One Dish" Dish1000 system they don't have to support the wing dish (unless the customer has internationals).
> 
> Speculation ... but I do not consider 61.5, 148 or 129 to be the permanent home of any national HD.
> 
> JL


Sounds pretty logical. I don't think we should get our hopes up for anything "new". My source says none of the channels (9901, etc) that show up in the EPG have any video or sound on his 6000. I thought JohnH might have posted that he saw d1000 slate and analog musak. I'm assuming the engineers dont work on the weekend 

MAYBE we'll have an actual interesting tech chat on monday. Did they finally wake up and realize someone can get more tech info from the Internet than their tech chats recently???


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## BoisePaul (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm not sure how it could work for subs in SuperDISH markets if the remaining VOOM channels went to 129. Those subs would have to have their SuperDISH for national programming plus locals, a 61.5 dish for the current VOOM channels, and yet another dish aimed at 129 for the remaining VOOM channels. I don't see that happening. You'd need a DPP44 and and a DP21 just to see all 5 orbital locations since a SuperDISH commits you to DishPro, and if I'm thinking correctly you'd need to add yet another DP21 if you have a HD DVR or 2 HD non-DVR receivers. That would also require the LNB on at least one of the Dish300's to be a dual as well. I'm not sure what you'd do if you needed 3 or more HD receivers (or anything beyond a single HD-DVR). I guess you just wouldn't be able to get all of the VOOM channels on all of the HD receivers.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

BoisePaul said:


> I'm not sure how it could work for subs in SuperDISH markets if the remaining VOOM channels went to 129. ...


It wouldn't make sense for E* to split up the VOOM channels between two birds. I think that some are predicting that ALL the VOOM channels will move to 129, and the 61.5 will be used for something else.

So existing VOOM & Superdish users would replace the Superdish with a Dish 1000, repoint the 61.5 to 105, and continue with life as usual. Just one possible scenario.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

The repoint of the 61.5 to 105 won't work. 105 requires a larger dish and different LNBF.

I think the High Definition on 129 needs to be new stuff, perhaps Mpeg4(H264) since a new dish is required, might as well do the new receiver thingy at the same time.

ESPN2 HD would seem to be a Must-have soon.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JonhH, regarding a number of working transponders - would you comment the pictures ? For me there are 22 of 'hot' transponders, not 16.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Perhaps some new pictures might more accurately reveal the current status.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Mikey said:


> It wouldn't make sense for E* to split up the VOOM channels between two birds. I think that some are predicting that ALL the VOOM channels will move to 129, and the 61.5 will be used for something else.
> 
> So existing VOOM & Superdish users would replace the Superdish with a Dish 1000, repoint the 61.5 to 105, and continue with life as usual. Just one possible scenario.


If any Voom goes to 129 it will be the existing 10 channels in MPEG2. It makes no sense to split Voom between two satellites or to add ANY new channels in MPEG2. It makes little sense to put national MPEG4 on 129 where many people would need a SuperDish105 or SuperDish121 for their locals plus a 129 dish of some sort. (Yes, a few have 'Mad Scientist' SuperDishes that get 129 on either a SuperDish105 or SuperDish121 but that should NOT become a common dish install!)

If E* did something as illogical as creating new HD on 129 (not just old Voom/CBS) the solution for current SuperDish owners would be to keep their SuperDish and repoint the side dish (61.5 or 148) to 129. (As noted, a 61.5 dish will not work pointed at 105.) I suspect that when 129 becomes public we will see all the wing LIL and HD channels there - but it will be a TEMPORARY situation waiting for E10 and MPEG4 to appear at the core 110 location.

It makes much more sense to put MPEG4 and HD on 110 where more people can see it without multiple dishes or Mad Scientist setups and leave the wings, SuperDishes and 129 as "extra" locations for certain local markets and internationals - NO national E* programming.

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Wonder what the dish with the 119K will look like?

Wouldn't think the DISH1000 would be big enough for that.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Wonder what the dish with the 119K will look like?
> 
> Wouldn't think the DISH1000 would be big enough for that.


My thinking starts with a SuperDish121 and combines the FSS and DBS feedhorn leaving the 110 DBS LNBF on the outrigger.

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

justalurker said:


> My thinking starts with a SuperDish121 and combines the FSS and DBS feedhorn leaving the 110 DBS LNBF on the outrigger.
> 
> JL


Probably could stick a 129 LNBF on there also, but it gets a bit cluttered and starts blocking the signal coming to the dish.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JohnH said:


> Perhaps some new pictures might more accurately reveal the current status.


Sure, if you could repoint my company's DTV dish to the satellite . Afraid CEO will be sadly surprised.


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## goaliebob99 (Jan 29, 2005)

JohnH said:


> Probably could stick a 129 LNBF on there also, but it gets a bit cluttered and starts blocking the signal coming to the dish.


see this thread http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=79882


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Sure, if you could repoint my company's DTV dish to the satellite . Afraid CEO will be sadly surprised.


P Smith: I've only seen a signal reading on the 16 transponders that John mentioned earlier. This is off a dish 6000. So if there are other transponders "active", they are not transmitting anything that a dish network box can pickup.

Could the other ones you are seeing on your graphs be interference from nearby sat locations?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

JohnH said:


> Probably could stick a 129 LNBF on there also, but it gets a bit cluttered and starts blocking the signal coming to the dish.


What is expected at 119K? More locals? I'm hoping that E* keeps DBS 119-110 as core and only requires ONE more satellite (either DBS or FSS) for locals in any common setup. People wouldn't need both 129 and 119K.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

hokieengineer said:


> <skip>Could the other ones you are seeing on your graphs be interference from nearby sat locations?


Are you kidding me ? If not, just point me to that unknown one with same transponder's characteristics. Take in acccount I'm using 1m dish, ie 39" size.


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Are you kidding me ? If not, just point me to that unknown one with same transponder's characteristics. Take in acccount I'm using 1m dish, ie 39" size.


Oops, sorry. As you can see by my non-technical test equipment (a dish 6000 using the point sat screen), I'm not that well versed on transponder characteristics and such. Just tryin to throw out some ideas!


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

(RUMOR) Me thinks new locals subs in Knoxville, TN will soon see "DISH1000 required" to get the locals. (/RUMOR)


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## TonyM (Aug 14, 2003)

Do you think Dish will do like Direct did when they moved locals off 101 to 119?

Have them mirrored for a couple months and then poof gone unless you have a D1000


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

JohnH said:


> (RUMOR) Me thinks new locals subs in Knoxville, TN will soon see "DISH1000 required" to get the locals. (/RUMOR)


Knoxville is one of the markets that is on a CONUS TP on 110. The other markets are:

Little Rock, AR 
Roanoke, VA
Jackson, MS
Lexington, KY 
Springfield, MO

The locals for these markets take up about 3 TPs on 110. Any evidence that any of these others will be like Knoxville?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, the rumor applies to only the new CTN channel when it launches.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

OK. I did new check of all DBS transponders of 129W, those pictures above show exactly current status - nothing changed. I should make only one correction - instead of #23 it must be #21.
That was my error of measuring in wide span mode, today I used finest tune mode and found those odd transponders looks not pretty; no gap between 3 and 5, 7 and 9, 15 and 17, but wide 'alley' between 19 and 21 - comparing to other Dish DBS satellites.

Really powered: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21 and 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20. Total = 22.
Some of them, like 9,10,12, doesn't looks good as you can see it on the pictures .

Next time I'm gonna check the muxes, if they are there. :grin:


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## S.C. Am (Jul 27, 2004)

P Smith said:


> Really powered: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21 and 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20. Total = 22.


As long as they have 16 going, as the Industry Canada licence for the permanent Ciel satellite @129 only allows for the lease of a maximum of 16 transponders to non Canadian served companies.

This is the same condition imposed on Telesat for the permanent satellite to be located at 72.5


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Thank you - mystery solved; now we need just wait when Dish will make new NIT,PAT,PMT then we will know what in those muxes.


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## rocatman (Nov 28, 2003)

S.C. Am said:


> As long as they have 16 going, as the Industry Canada licence for the permanent Ciel satellite @129 only allows for the lease of a maximum of 16 transponders to non Canadian served companies.
> 
> This is the same condition imposed on Telesat for the permanent satellite to be located at 72.5


Dish has use of all 32 DBS TPs at 129 W until at least September 2008. When a new satellite is launched and in place at 129 W, Dish will have use of at least 16 TPs.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Paerhaps a different scenario. Maybe DISH can use any 16 of the 32.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Gmmm, JohnH - then why only 22 powered ? If you testing whole satellite after move, will you run tests on 22 of 32 transponders ? If I would the engineer, I'll check all of them .


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Well, EchoStar 5 can only operate 16 in Dual Power Mode. It looks like they have found 16 which work in that mode. It is not capable of doing any more, so that's that. 

Time to forget about how many Tps and look forward to what is on the Tps.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I'll fire my 8PSK sniffer soon, when the USB connector will works .


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

Maybe I missed this already, but is the 129 BSS (18 inch) or FSS (30+ inch)...


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

It is DBS(BSS). 18 inch will work in many places.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I set up a Dish500 and got 119-129 up and running tonight. It is a decent satellite.

edit:
At the moment when I lie to my 301 and select 121 instead of 129 I can tune the full range of transponders. My 301 can see 11 of the TPs:
3, 4, 5, 7, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21
Each of them locks in nicely with the "EchoStar 129" ID at the bottom of the screen ("wrong sat", of course). Signal levels on my quicky setup are in the high 80's (but I didn't try very hard - no resetting skew, just azimuth and elevation). 129 is a 24° elevation from my area.

JL


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## pbsman (Oct 10, 2003)

Hello,
Can someone tell me how to find the 129. Is it close to the 119?

pbsman


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## hokieengineer (Jul 31, 2004)

pbsman said:


> Hello,
> Can someone tell me how to find the 129. Is it close to the 119?
> 
> pbsman


Well, if you're on the east coast, it'd be to the right, and a little lower. Its pretty easy if you lock 110, then 119, then 129. They are kinda in a line. I have no clue where you'd point if you're on the west coast or anywhere else for that matter :lol:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

pbsman said:


> Can someone tell me how to find the 129. Is it close to the 119?


From my location it is about 10 degrees over to the right (standing behind the dish) and about 6 degrees down. It really depends on where you are in the US. Everyone could find 129 to the "right" of 119 looking up. Whether or not it is up or down of the level you have used to see 119 depends on how far west you are. Most of the US is east of 119, so most of the US will have 129 lower in the sky.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

After checking official SDTables from stream we can see the picture:

```
name, channel, TID, transponder, satellite
RAVE    ,  9470,409, 9, 129.0W 
GUYTV   ,  9479,409, 9, 129.0W 
HDNWS   ,  9482,409, 9, 129.0W

ULTRA   ,  9478,410,10, 129.0W
MNSTR   ,  9481,410,10, 129.0W

NTST1   ,  9966,413,13, 129.0W
NTST2   ,  9967,413,13, 129.0W 

KLTJ    ,  8383,415,15, 129.0W
KZJL    ,  8384,415,15, 129.0W 
KYNE    ,  9147,415,15, 129.0W 
KWSD    ,  9237,415,15, 129.0W 
WTCT    ,  9262,415,15, 129.0W 
WVLR    ,  9318,415,15, 129.0W 

WEAO    ,  8520,416,16, 129.0W 

WJET    ,  7041,417,17, 129.0W 
WSEE    ,  7042,417,17, 129.0W 
WICU    ,  7043,417,17, 129.0W 
WFXP    ,  7044,417,17, 129.0W 
WQLN    ,  7047,417,17, 129.0W 
D1000   ,  9901,417,17, 129.0W 
ACTVT   , 36610,417,17, 129.0W 
DNL8    , 36850,417,17, 129.0W
DNL9    , 36851,417,17, 129.0W 
DNL10   , 36854,417,17, 129.0W 
DNL7    , 36855,417,17, 129.0W 
DNL3    , 36859,417,17, 129.0W 
SSD     , 36860,417,17, 129.0W 
EPG     , 36861,417,17, 129.0W 
DNL     , 36863,417,17, 129.0W
```
I want to make a notice about access, the table show all the channels are in engineering mode.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Good info P Smith .... (and looks pretty nice also..that output)

Thanks for showing it to us


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I just borrow it from other side of the world [thanks btb].


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## goaliebob99 (Jan 29, 2005)

what frequancy is transponder 17?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

12457 R


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

or look at www.lyngsat.com . All satellites data is there.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

Looks like locals and the V* channels are being tested. Wonder if they will actually make it to the actual official start.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

FYI: 9, 10 and 13 have appeared on the list of transponders my 301 and 501 can "check signal" on when 129 is selected. They are 8PSK and don't actually show a signal on these models, but they can be selected.

(These are the three containing the Voom and test HD content.)

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Your receivers can select only those transponders what defined in current NIT.

Here is latest additional info to the table above {post #126} by analyzing 129W muxes:

tpn 3 - 3 channels
tpn 4 - 12
tpn 5 - 12
tpn 7 - 12
tpn 12 - 2 (8PSK !)
tpn 14 - 12
tpn 18 - 11
tpn 20 - 7
tpn 21 - 11

tpns 1,2,6,8,11 and 19 still not accessible, could be a few reasons: diffrent parameters, not uplinked, low power.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

P Smith said:


> Your receivers can select only those transponders what defined in current NIT.


Not completely. In the past I've seen NIT TPs that were unselectable. I'm not sure how they are telling the receivers what is OK but it isn't the standard NIT.

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

justalurker said:


> Not completely. In the past I've seen NIT TPs that were unselectable. I'm not sure how they are telling the receivers what is OK but it isn't the standard NIT.
> 
> JL


That is correct. For a number of years there were some Tps at 61.5 which were in the NIT and you could not select them. They even had programming which could be received. There are probably some at 148 now.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

That's different point , anyway your DISH receiver should get transponder's parameters from NIT first; my remark wasn't about lock particularly, but in general. Regarding selecting/locking I would say the receivers should have hardcoded NIT in case when your dish not aimed correctly, and after getting packets switch to current NIT from stream.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

hokieengineer said:


> ...I have no clue where you'd point if you're on the west coast or anywhere else for that matter...


Ok. I'm on the west coast. 95949. Can someone tell me why I'm having so much trouble locating 129? I have a Starband dish pointing at 129 already. I took one of my spare d500's and can easily find 110, 119 almost in a straight line with my sat finder (they are roughly a degree or so off in elevation from eachother), but when I sweep to the right of I can't find 129 anywhere. What gives?


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

ok. never mind. found it. my cheapie $10 sat finder doesn't help much. Interestingly enough, on both my 311's I get a lock on active 129 TP's with descent signal strength... but my 811 says "wrong sat - echostar 119 west"... and they're all connected to the same SW64. I've run multiple check switches/etc.... must be something in the 811 software.

Edit. OK. nevermind again. now I'm getting into weird territory here. After checking switch on both my 311's then going into my 811 and selecting superdish on the check switch now the 811 properly finds 129 and shows signal strength on all selectable TP's. 9, 10, 13, 15, 16, & 17.

Guess now I just have to sit tight and wait for those VOOM channels to come out of engineering mode and into production mode!


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There are reports on another forum of problems caused by having E5 in the customer's system. The customer has a 61.5 dish for their normal Voom viewing but recently added 129 to their system via a DPP44. Yesterday morning they lost a portion of the Voom lineup (the five channels that are on both 129 and 61.5). It looks like the receiver saw the 129 versions of the channels and since they are still in engineering his receiver removed the channels from his EPG. The channels returned when 129 was removed from the system. Another poster confirmed this behavior.

A friendly caution to those playing with receiving 129 (and right now only applicable to Voom subscribers and subscribers with locals now being tested on 129). If you start to lose channels you may want to disconnect your 129 dish.

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

It is likely the "No Duplicate" feature they added to the software chose the set at 129 instead of the 5 at 61.5.


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## goaliebob99 (Jan 29, 2005)

JohnH said:


> It is likely the "No Duplicate" feature they added to the software chose the set at 129 instead of the 5 at 61.5.


yea maybe thats it.. I noticed thay have been fluctating on and off. (im one of the postees that JAL was talking about.. ) sence noon they have been up and running.. no need to do anything. sometimes doing a chk sw brings them in.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

is 129 no longer alive? seems dark at 4:38pm PDT.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

No signals there at this time.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

wonder if testing there is over for now.....


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

The channels are still in the system tables.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I would suggest our posts made it . They can't hide poor working transponders from us anymore.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

yeah they did seem relatively low power from the west coast.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I just looked at SA screen - they lowered power for more then 20 dBm, so those who have solid 5m dish could continue monitoring the transponders .


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

hehe - they don't want us to monitor..

we reveal too much info already (as far as they are concerned)

for them - the less we know - the better


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

They could just be conserving power until they really need it.

JL


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## goaliebob99 (Jan 29, 2005)

time to bust out the 5m dish lol


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Panic Mode:

*E* is going to require their subscribers to install a 5 meter (16ft give or take) dish in order to continue to receive Voom and any new HD!*

Someone had to say it. 

E5 at 129 shall return to full power and serve our needs as previously discussed.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

The satellite is cold turkey now; no signal on SA screen at all.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

And it ain't even Thanksgiving yet.... 

(to talk Turkey.. be it cold or hot)


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Hope the Beacon is still there.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Ya.. - Canadian bacon expecially.. very tasty!.... mmmmmm 

[EDIT] Opps - my poor English -----> i think "beacon" and "bacon" is not the same actually ...

However not sure - ... maybe John ment "bacon" after all :grin:


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

EchoStar 5 is resting. 

Perhaps having a thread title reminiscent of "Short Circuit" (Number Five is Alive) was too much of a prediction. Fortunately there was a sequel. Perhaps when #5 comes alive again it will be better than said sequel. 

JL


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

justalurker said:


> EchoStar 5 is resting.
> JL


OK.. In that case - Rest in Peace, EchoStar 5!


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

"Nice Software."


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

justalurker said:


> Panic Mode:
> 
> *E* is going to require their subscribers to install a 5 meter (16ft give or take) dish in order to continue to receive Voom and any new HD!*


It's bigger than my balcony and my ($%W(*&! HOA won't let me put it in one of the visitor parking spaces. Now what???


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

could use your assigned parking space, doesn't that count as an exclusive use area? :lol:


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

It's Baaack.


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

Any changes on it now that it is back?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Seems to be the same as before.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

coming in loud and clear here in CA. now if only they would take the channels out of eng mode.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Scott at Satelliteguys said:

"9901 is not scheduled to be made available to all until Mid September."

And when asked if it was an inside source.. He answered:

"Yup. In some areas DNS is hiring installers to go in an replace SuperDishes and wing dishes in some areas with Dish 1000's around the first week of October.

I expect as soon as they turn it on Dish will make a announcement about offering all locals on just one Dish."


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

Well if that is true then shouldn't all of the channels on 129 except 9901 be made available as soon as the first 1000 goes in, or maybe even shortly before that. I.e. within the next couple weeks?


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Not always..

According to Scott anyhow, lol - will NOT be available until Mid-September...


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

So you're trying to tell me that in early October someone is going to have their superdish & wingdish removed and replaced with a 1000 and they won't be able to watch the programming off of 129? Or are you trying to say that only the people with 1000's will be able to watch programming off of 129...


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

I am not trying to tell you anything, lol 

It's Scott from Satelliteguys.us saying..

So.. Go ask him


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

So in other words you decided to write "not always.." just for the heck of it?


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Well, "not always..." was a reference to kinda ONLY this part: "Well if that is true then shouldn't... (IT) .. be..."

Cuz with DISH - you NEVER know what "should or shouldn't" be, - as the history shows they tend to do things their OWN unique way.. - and specifically - "When they want to.." and "How they want to.." rather then "what should and shouldn't be", lol


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I collect in one table what I gathered from all my gadgets about E*5 at 129W.
I can't lock on some of powered transponder , perhaps they're using weird SR/FEC combinations ? 
Spectrum analyzer show same picture as I posted before. 
A few other transponders have mux, but it's almost impossible to identify those channels without PMT.


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## SummitAdvantageRetailer (Feb 20, 2005)

I guess more and more it looks like 129 will be used for one dish locals solution. I guess that leaves around 8 months for E* to put all locals on one dish according to the deadline of that law they passed.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

logray said:


> Well if that is true then shouldn't all of the channels on 129 except 9901 be made available as soon as the first 1000 goes in, or maybe even shortly before that. I.e. within the next couple weeks?





logray said:


> So you're trying to tell me that in early October someone is going to have their superdish & wingdish removed and replaced with a 1000 and they won't be able to watch the programming off of 129? Or are you trying to say that only the people with 1000's will be able to watch programming off of 129...


I don't believe you are following the logic.

According to "Scott" 9901 is scheduled to be turned on in mid-September. Normally the test slate is one of the first made public. (If they turned it on tomorrow Scott wouldn't be wrong - E* would have just done it "ahead of schedule". There is always wiggle room - even if 9901 doesn't turn on until October it is just a "change of schedule".)

But according to Scott's report the installers are going out in early October. That's several weeks AFTER mid-September. Plenty of time to activate any market's channels on 129 as needed. But there is nothing stopping E* from activating those locals at 129 whenever they want. Regardless of the rumored wave of installers.

E* has until NEXT MAY to solve the one dish problem. There is no need to rush through it. They do need to start selling D1000's instead of D500's in the affected markets. Less people to change later.

JL


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Can't sell any without signals turned on.

I sure could use a single bounce Toroid which is big enough to support Ku 2 degree spacing for a bunch of satellites.


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## logray (Apr 8, 2005)

justalurker said:


> I don't believe you are following the logic.


My eyes apparently failed to connect to my brain properly. I thought I read 9901 wouldn't be active til' mid-_October_. So I was thinking to myself, now why would they install these things without activating the channels. All clear now. Thanks JL :grin:


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Some technical info from 129W muxes for curious satDX mans. :sure:


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Yep, Mpeg4 on one of them.

Only missing number 21 which is QPSK.

Thanks.


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

JohnH- I'm using a WaveFrontier Toroidal-55. I've had it set up to receive 110-119-148, but added a fourth LNB to pick up 129. The Toroidal-55 has a look-view of 40 degrees and it works perfectly here in southern Arizona. When 129 gets fired up my problem then will be switches. I'm currently using SW-64 for my two 508s and two 7200s.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

saguaro said:


> JohnH- I'm using a WaveFrontier Toroidal-55. I've had it set up to receive 110-119-148, but added a fourth LNB to pick up 129. The Toroidal-55 has a look-view of 40 degrees and it works perfectly here in southern Arizona. When 129 gets fired up my problem then will be switches. I'm currently using SW-64 for my two 508s and two 7200s.


It seems nice as well as the T-90, but it will not allow spacing closer than 3-4 Degrees. I don't much like having to use their "reversed" LNBFs either. I do KuFSS as well as KuDBS. There have been commercial models which are a bit larger and don't use the second reflector.

All you need for the 508s is an SW21 for each. The 7200s don't support the cascade at last check.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Welcome to DBSTalk, saguaro! :welcome:
:welcome_s


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

I thought the reversed LNBs would be alot more difficult to align, but they weren't. My main problem was getting the correct skew from WaveFrontier. The two outside LNBs peak at a lower signal strength, but that isn't much of a problem here in the sunny desert. It sure beats the antenna farm I had in the past.


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

unfortunately there are no reversed DishPro lnb's, therefore hooking up more than 3 satellites becomes problematic as a DPP-44 can't be used, and you're stuck with Legacy switches.


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## derwin0 (Jan 31, 2005)

I wound up going with an MS-E85 Dish
http://arizatechnology.com/catalog/...d=309&osCsid=ad6f10d75b9d8cf68e890a70a44ebc0e
http://www.skyhighelectronics.com/index.php?cID=13&pID=MS-E85

I was able to set it up for 82, 91, 105, 110, and 119. By centering it at 105, I have 82 and 129 hanging off of the end of the rail. 82 gets me a signal right at 100, so 129 should be decent when I connect up the lnb.

If 82 and 91 are of no concern, the 110, 110, 129, and 148 could be done, but I don't know what that would do to trying to get 105 and/or 121 as it would be off center.

Minimum spacing is about 4 degrees, but I do have a 119/121 lnb from a superdish that I'm tempted to try out.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

JohnH said:


> Yep, Mpeg4 on one of them.
> 
> Only missing number 21 which is QPSK.
> 
> Thanks.


I'll recheck the #21; hmm, which one have H.264 ?

EDIT. Nay, the transponder 21 is regular QPSK 20000 5/6; 21.htm included. I'm still wonder where is the MPEG4 channel(s) ?


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## alebowgm (Jun 12, 2004)

saguaro said:


> JohnH- I'm using a WaveFrontier Toroidal-55. I've had it set up to receive 110-119-148, but added a fourth LNB to pick up 129. The Toroidal-55 has a look-view of 40 degrees and it works perfectly here in southern Arizona. When 129 gets fired up my problem then will be switches. I'm currently using SW-64 for my two 508s and two 7200s.


Just pop on some SW21s... Will work with a 4 dish setup...


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

P Smith said:


> I'll recheck the #21; hmm, which one have H.264 ?


Looks like 13.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

You got me  - I missed it from my own charts, hehe - midnight shift after work, you know -blurred vision . No content yet for those TST channels.


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## digiblur (Jun 11, 2005)

alebowgm said:


> Just pop on some SW21s... Will work with a 4 dish setup...


Got a link to a diagram for doing 4 dishes with a SW64?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

P Smith said:


> You got me  - I missed it from my own charts, hehe - midnight shift after work, you know -blurred vision . No content yet for those TST channels.


Not to worry. System tables show it moving to 148.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Well, there is at 148 t#5 Dish already doing H.264 testing for last few months - a few SD and HD channels.


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

Channel 9901 is active now, with "Welcome, you have a Dish 1000." Several transponders are now active.


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## Paradox-sj (Dec 15, 2004)

saguaro said:


> Channel 9901 is active now, with "Welcome, you have a Dish 1000." Several transponders are now active.


So what does this mean besides being earlier than forcasted?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

saguaro said:


> Channel 9901 is active now, with "Welcome, you have a Dish 1000." Several transponders are now active.


Check out the "Uplink Activity" thread here for more information. JohnH does a good job of keeping us informed of such changes. There is usually a new "Uplink Activity" thread each week as a 'sticky' at the top of the forum.

As for "what does it mean"? It means E* is preparing to put the satellite into service to feed customers. There is more discussion in the uplink thread.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I did scan all transponders of 129 W today; you can see some of them still doesn't have PAT/PMTs but have active PIDs - those channels could be attributed after define them manually. You could find also in the files some transponders have more channels then current PAT/PMT describe.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

New update at Lyngsat for 129:
http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/dish129.html and http://www.lyngsat.com/echo5.html


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Darkman said:


> New update at Lyngsat for 129:
> http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/dish129.html and http://www.lyngsat.com/echo5.html


A little closer to reality ...

JL


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## BFG (Jan 23, 2004)

That contributer has a blind eye to the HD transponders and channels though. Someone else should make a contribution to lyngsat


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

I love lyngsat. However right now, the most complete listing for 129 is here:
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/129list.htm

I do not list channels in the 5 digit range because they are not visible to any legitamate subscribers with the exception of the EPG.

See ya
Tony


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

BFG said:


> That contributer has a blind eye to the HD transponders and channels though. Someone else should make a contribution to lyngsat


maybe he didn't have HD capability to notice it .. hehe 

However it's OK.. cuz Lyngsat is built on multiple contributions.. and then, YES.. someone else should / will contribute that info to Lyngsat (... sooner or later  )


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

BFG said:


> That contributer has a blind eye to the HD transponders and channels though. Someone else should make a contribution to lyngsat


I follow TNGTony's lists ...
The channels I first noticed missing on Lyngsat were my locals (7090-7097).

BTW: My favorite part of the EKB is the changes list, giving an idea of when changes happened and past signals that are no longer there.

JL


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Will see tomorrow .


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm using all Legacy receivers, switches, and LNBs. I'm trying to put SW-21 in line with my SW-64 so I can bring in the 129 satellite. Larrystotler wrote in DBSTalk that it's possible:

"If you have an SW64 and do not get 61.5° - You can connect the SW64 and another LNB with an SW21. DO NOT USE PORT 1 due to the power inserter. It will DESTROY the SW21! DO A CHECK SWITCH."

I've tried putting the 129 LNB's SW-21 in line to only one receiver, after the SW-64, and that doesn't work. I've tried putting the 129 LNB's SW-21 in line in front of one of the 6 inputs, and that doesn't work. I'm not using Port 1 output. What am I doing wrong?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Have you connected the 129 LNBF directly to the receiver and verified that you have Transponders 16 and 17 from 129?

After you have done that, you need to make the connections as described. Depending on what receiver you have you need to select 4 sat and alternate in the Check Switch menu and do the check switch.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Also remember that not all receivers support the SW21/SW64 cascade. Off the top of my head I don't know for sure which ones. I think they have to have 38 test? Can some one help me out here?

See ya
Tony


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks for the info JohnH and TNGTony. My receiver is a 508 and my SW-64 inputs are 110, 119, 148. In trying to add 129, I'm using SW-21x. Options to check/uncheck are "SuperDish" and "Alternate." When I check "Alternate" the switch check shows SW-42, and I have 129 odd/even and 148 odd/even. When I uncheck "Alternate" I have 119 odd and 129 odd/even. Active transponders are 4,5,7,15,16,17,18,20. Transponders with no signals are 6,9,10,12. Possibly the 508 doesn't support cascading SW-64 and SW-21(x).
Note to TNGTony, channel 9901 has been showing up for the past week. Your list still shows it as a (1).


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

You must select alternate and Superdish. The SW21X is the same as a SW42.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

So you will have to replace the SW21X with an SW21.
The SW64/SW21 cascade is supported by the 3700, 3900, 4900 and the entire DishPro line (which includes the 508) though I haven't seen confirmation for the 111 or 721.


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

BobaBird and JohnH-- Thanks again. When today's hot sun goes down I'll climb out there with SW-21 and try it again. Again--- the SW-21 is in line AFTER the SW-64, not in front-- and going to only one 508 receiver?


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

Bobabird, the 721 is here and works with 4 sat cascade, although if you don't use the 4th sat for a while it forgets how to get there.  A switch test reminds it.


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

saguaro said:


> BobaBird and JohnH-- Thanks again. When today's hot sun goes down I'll climb out there with SW-21 and try it again. Again--- the SW-21 is in line AFTER the SW-64, not in front-- and going to only one 508 receiver?


Correct.


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## Darkman (Apr 16, 2002)

Well.. Lyngsat posted SID #s now 
http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/dish129_sid.html


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## saguaro (Aug 24, 2005)

BobaBird, Your advice solved my problem and I'm now getting 110-119-129-148. Thanks!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Today:

TP13 is also doesn't show any muxed packets.
Tp12 have too many errors, seems there is technical problem.

EDIT: Tp21 is OK, my setup didn't work well for the transponder today.


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## TNGTony (Mar 23, 2002)

Thanks P! I will leave the lists alone for a bit as it may just be testing problems. I'll keep an ear out.

See ya
Tony


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## JohnH (Apr 22, 2002)

21 looks fine here.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Hmm. JohnH, you're right - I switched to TH1020 and tp21 looks normal. Next time I'll use both cards.


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## larrystotler (Jun 6, 2004)

saguaro said:


> Possibly the 508 doesn't support cascading SW-64 and SW-21(x).


The Microyal SW21X is not an SW21. There used to be the SW42, which used a different switching. The ended up using this switching in the 500Twin. The only support for the SW42/SW21X if for a SW21/SW21X cascade. Guess I'll have to update my guide to show this. Glad to see you got it working.


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