# Sixto Report-D11 Status: In Operation July 31, 2008



## Earl Bonovich

Now that the SeaLaunch segment is complete...

Let's restart the discussion here... and continue tracking D11 until we see the "signal strength" on our boxes for 99 #2

Edit: (tom robertson) D11 is live, sending test signals, will have MPEG4 versions of MPEG2 HD channels July 31 and new channels starting August 14!

[strike]Latest Official "Estimated" go live date is 3Q of 2008.[/strike]


----------



## Sixto

*Comparison of D10, Spaceway-1, and D11 Satellites during their move to geostationary:*


Code:


	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]D11[/B]	[B]D11	D11
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U][/B]
1	414	35813	18114	262	34097	17180	243	36067	18155
2	4919	35792	20356						
3	4921	36526	20724	1061	34311	17686			
4	4923	37127	21025	1058	34315	17687	463	36484	18474
6	8277	37105	22691	1067	37418	19243	463	38996	19730
7	17992	37082	27537				468	40742	20605
8	17994	37083	27539	1066	45481	23274	7392	40992	24192
10	31290	37120	34205	4538	45472	25005	7387	40988	24188
11	34206	37119	35663	10508	45520	28014			
12	34100	37245	35673	21197	45466	33332	17363	41066	29215
13	34099	37129	35614	21197	45466	33332	17362	41064	29213
14	34088	37109	35599	25415	45483	35449			
15	34085	37109	35597	25415	45470	35443			
16	34088	37104	35596	26063	45474	35769	29456	41232	35344
17	34123	37099	35611	26097	45474	35786	29621	41228	35425
18	34179	37102	35641	26097	45475	35786	29621	41228	35425
19	34239	37050	35645	26098	45476	35787	29622	41228	35425
21	34449	37082	35766	26099	45480	35790	29723	41211	35467
24	34759	36906	35833	26218	45281	35750	30007	41174	35591

26	35111	36572	35842	26371	45197	35784	30345	41133	35739
29	34923	36787	35855	26903	44722	35813	30615	41065	35840
31	35603	36177	35890	27317	44295	35806	30883	40871	35877
32	35644	36057	35851				31115	40623	35869
33	35630	36051	35841				31309	40411	35860
34	35663	35964	35814	27342	44275	35809	31369	40366	35868
35	35740	35919	35830	27738	43839	35789	31660	39991	35826
36	35737	35864	35801				31742	39996	35869
37	35739	35876	35808	28120	43443	35782	31867	39844	35856
38	35742	35809	35776	27991	43578	35785			

40	35784	35789	35787	28454	43005	35730	32302	39428	35865		
41	35784	35787	35786				32285	39398	35842
42				28593	42985	35789	32598	39086	35842
45				29272	42297	35785	32976	38782	35879
47							33276	38434	35855
48				29769	41851	35810	33458	38289	35874
49				29918	41704	35811	33596	38136	35866
51				30054	41420	35737	33988	37798	35893
52				30271	41282	35777			
53							34111	37722	35917
54							34365	37443	35904
56				30647	40926	35787	34423	37211	35817
57				30784	40711	35748	34610	37078	35844
58				30934	40566	35750	34793	36906	35850
60				30961	40636	35799		
61							35206	36441	35824


62							35350	36345	35848
63							35496	36217	35857
64				31829	39718	35774	35600	36052	35826
65				31988	39539	35764	35739	35884	35812
66				32106	39528	35817	35747	35804	35776
67				32237	39403	35820	35786	35792	35789
69				32573	38958	35766	35785	35789	35787
70				32679	38954	35817	35786	35788	35787
72				33058	38503	35781			
73				33136	38497	35817			
74				33338	38206	35772			
76				33642	37920	35781			
77				33752	37796	35774			
78				33226	38341	35784			
80				33661	37942	35802			
81				34201	37322	35762			
83				34201	37307	35754			
84				34713	36881	35797			
85				34782	36735	35759			
86				34999	36585	35792			
87				34634	36970	35802			
88				34847	36770	35809			
92				34847	36770	35809			
93				35763	35844	35804			
97				35784	35790	35787			
98				35783	35792	35788			
99				35784	35790	35787			
101				35784	35790	35787			
102				35784	35790	35787			
103				35784	35790	35787			
105				35785	35789	35787


----------



## Sixto

*Placeholder for Additional DirecTV-11 Information*


----------



## Sixto

*Synopsis updated 7/31/2008 - Orbit Location (TLE) dated 8/1/2008*

*Status of the DirecTV-11 (D11) Satellite:*

D11 is parked and "live".
On 7/31/2008, the 9 legacy HD channels are MPEG4 (Ka) on D11:
206/73 - ESPN HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 720p
209/72 - ESPN2 HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 720p
245/75 - TNT HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
259/74 - Universal HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
281/76 - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater) MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
306/79 - HDNet MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
501/70 - HBO East HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
537/71 - Showtime East HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
552/78 - HDNet Movies (a,u) MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i

On 8/14/2008, expecting that there will be 35 new HD channels. Informed analysis seems to indicate 12 new full-time RSN's, 6 new HD PPV, and 17 new national HD including Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, and ABC Family HD.
*Progress of DirecTV-11:*

On 3/19/2008, DirecTV-11 launched from the equator via SeaLaunch towards a circular "geostationary orbit" (35,786km altitude at the equator) at the "test" location of 99.4°. After launch, the satellite was in an elliptical (non-circular) orbit at the equator with a low (perigee) altitude of 243km and a high (apogee) altitude of 36,067km.
From 3/19/2008 thru late-May, the low point of D11's orbit (the "perigee") was raised day-by-day to the geostationary altitude of 35,786km, while at the same time conserving fuel throughout the process.
On 5/25/2008 (Day#67), D11 arrived at the 99.4° geostationary "test" location. Testing was expected at 99.4° for up to 30 days.
On 6/13/2008 (Day#86), D11 arrived at a 2nd test location (at 100.7°) to test an "experimental BSS payload" for the interaction of 17/24 GHz BSS with regular operations at 101°.
On 7/7/2008 (Day#109), the FCC approved a two day test (between 7/7/2008-7/11/2008) to conduct an in-orbit spot beam test at 100.7°.
Until 7/18/2008 (Day#120), D11 was testing an "experimental BSS payload" for up to 120 days (from 5/15/2008) at 100.7° (details in FCC Filing 6/13/2008 below).
On 7/21/2008 (Day#123), Boeing announced that DirecTV had taken on-orbit delivery of D11.
On 7/21/2008 (Day#123), D11 reached the 99.2° location with D11 listed in the HD receiver satellite transponder signal strength screens as "99(c)" on the HR2x DVR's and "99(a)" on the H2x receivers.
On 7/22/2008 (Day#124), D11 began transmitting a solid signal on all 14 national transponders (1-14) and transponder tuning/tweaking is underway.
On 7/26/2008 (Day#128), it appears that 40 hidden "test" channels are now transmitting from D11: the 9 Legacy HD channels, 8 HD DNS (East & West), 1 "Movie's Now", 12 HD RSN's now full-time, 6 PPV HD and 2 other HD (Toon, MSG) moving from D10, and 2 new HD (Fox News HD, ABC Family HD). "Test" channels are only viewable with special engineering cards.
On 7/28/2008, DirecTV announced the initial D11 rollout plan (http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4800004). By the end of July, the 9 legacy HD channels will be available in Ka MPEG4. 
On 7/28/2008, DirecTV announced 44 new HD Local-in-Local Markets: http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4800002
Awaiting new national HD channels on 8/14/2008.
The current DirecTV HD listing can be found here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378
Please post any questions to this thread. There are some very smart and knowledgeable experts lurking ... 
*Possible plans for DirecTV-11 (original):*

Balancing of HD channels between DirecTV-10 (D10) and DirecTV-11 (D11)
Movement of the 9 Legacy Ku MPEG2 national HD channels to Ka MPEG4
74 - Universal HD
78 - HDNet Movies
79 - HDNet
206/73 - ESPN HD
209/72 - ESPN2 HD
245/75 - TNT HD
281/76 - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater)
501/70/509 - HBO East HD
537/71/543 - Showtime East HD

Add additional HBO HD premium channels (per the previous HBO announcement)
All of the future premium sports packages will be Ka MPEG4 (ex: Sunday Ticket, ...)
East and West HD DNS' all to Ka MPEG4 (West MPEG4 "live" now on Ku)
99 - PPV HD (MPEG2) eventually shut down
A few HD channels may be waiting for D11 to be fully tested before added to D10
Many more HD channels will be available (Travel Channel HD, Fox News HD, more HD movie premiums, ...)
Here's some possible HD Channels (Thanks Smiddy!)

New HD VOD options (pre-downloaded content to DirecTV managed harddisk space)
Many more HD Local-In-Local (at least 121 HD LIL's by year-end 2008 - 88% of the U.S.)
*Two Line Element (TLE) Format:*
A NORAD two-line element (TLE) set consists of two 69-character lines of data which describe in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth. Calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html)​
*Current D11 TLE & Orbital History:* 


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE135)
1 32729U 08013A   08214.23405301 -.00000141  00000-0  00000+0 0  1356
2 32729 000.0208 092.0612 0001405 133.9712 069.1766 01.00270629  1464

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		08-01-2008 05:37:02
Orbit # at Epoch	146
Inclination		0.021
RA of A. Node		92.061
Eccentricity		0.0001405
Argument of Perigee	133.971
Revs per day		1.00270629
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 781 x 35 793 km
Element number / age	135 / 0 day(s)

Lon			99.2163° W
Lat			0.0243° S
Alt (km)		35 784.310

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#135(08-01-2008 05:37:02) 35,781 x 35,793 km (+47.1 hours,at 134.5 days,  99.22°)
TLE#134(07-30-2008 06:33:57) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+47.6 hours,at 132.5 days,  99.21°)
TLE#133(07-28-2008 06:57:49) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+19.5 hours,at 130.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#132(07-27-2008 11:26:19) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35,778 x 35,794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
TLE#125(07-08-2008 13:01:34) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 5.8 hours,at 110.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#124(07-08-2008 07:15:17) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+47.5 hours,at 110.6 days, 100.71°)
TLE#123(07-06-2008 07:42:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+48.8 hours,at 108.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#122(07-04-2008 06:55:23) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+19.9 hours,at 106.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#121(07-03-2008 10:59:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+46.7 hours,at 105.7 days, 100.70°)
TLE#120(07-01-2008 12:15:56) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+26.4 hours,at 103.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#119(06-30-2008 09:54:50) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+45.4 hours,at 102.7 days, 100.70°)
TLE#118(06-28-2008 12:32:34) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+27.6 hours,at 100.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#117(06-27-2008 08:55:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+44.0 hours, at 99.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#116(06-25-2008 12:58:19) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+ 4.9 hours, at 97.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#115(06-25-2008 08:06:13) 35,783 x 35,791 km (+20.0 hours, at 97.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#114(06-24-2008 12:07:52) 35,784 x 35,791 km (+22.9 hours, at 96.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#113(06-23-2008 13:11:09) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+ 8.0 hours, at 95.8 days, 100.69°)
TLE#112(06-23-2008 05:12:38) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+ 1.7 hours, at 95.5 days, 100.68°)
TLE#111(06-23-2008 03:28:49) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+12.4 hours, at 95.4 days, 100.68°)
TLE#110(06-22-2008 15:07:36) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+50.1 hours, at 94.9 days, 100.69°)
TLE#109(06-20-2008 12:58:38) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+51.8 hours, at 92.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#108(06-18-2008 09:13:27) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+42.3 hours, at 90.7 days, 100.69°)
TLE#107(06-16-2008 14:56:50) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+25.7 hours, at 88.9 days, 100.70°)
TLE#106(06-15-2008 13:13:20) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 87.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#105(06-15-2008 11:58:07) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+19.6 hours, at 87.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#104(06-14-2008 16:20:15) 35,784 x 35,789 km (+25.9 hours, at 87.0 days, 100.70°)
TLE#103(06-13-2008 14:24:00) 35,790 x 35,800 km (+28.5 hours, at 85.9 days, 100.69°)
TLE#102(06-12-2008 09:52:32) 35,796 x 35,839 km (+ 1.4 hours, at 84.7 days, 100.59°)
TLE#101(06-12-2008 08:27:28) 35,800 x 35,858 km (+18.0 hours, at 84.6 days, 100.58°)
TLE#100(06-11-2008 14:29:40) 35,801 x 35,858 km (+53.0 hours, at 83.9 days, 100.08°)
TLE#99 (06-09-2008 09:30:24) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 81.7 days,  99.48°)
TLE#98 (06-07-2008 16:01:47) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+13.1 hours, at 79.9 days,  99.47°)
TLE#97 (06-07-2008 02:57:49) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+ 7.1 hours, at 79.4 days,  99.47°)
TLE#96 (06-06-2008 19:53:36) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+11.7 hours, at 79.1 days,  99.46°)
TLE#95 (06-06-2008 08:10:36) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+45.2 hours, at 78.6 days,  99.46°)
TLE#94 (06-04-2008 10:56:07) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 76.7 days,  99.45°)
TLE#92 (06-02-2008 17:23:25) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 7.6 hours, at 75.0 days,  99.44°)
TLE#93 (06-02-2008 09:46:47) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.4 hours, at 74.7 days,  99.44°)
TLE#91 (06-01-2008 09:21:55) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.8 hours, at 73.7 days,  99.43°)
TLE#90 (05-31-2008 08:32:28) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+21.6 hours, at 72.6 days,  99.43°)
TLE#89 (05-30-2008 10:59:25) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.3 hours, at 71.7 days,  99.42°)
TLE#88 (05-29-2008 10:43:26) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+25.0 hours, at 70.7 days,  99.42°)
TLE#87 (05-28-2008 09:42:18) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+23.3 hours, at 69.7 days, +  1km)
TLE#86 (05-27-2008 10:23:29) 35,785 x 35,789 km (+45.8 hours, at 68.7 days, -  1km)
TLE#85 (05-25-2008 12:37:10) 35,786 x 35,792 km (+27.0 hours, at 66.8 days, + 39km)
TLE#84 (05-24-2008 09:39:35) 35,747 x 35,804 km (+20.0 hours, at 65.7 days, +  8km)
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) 35,739 x 35,884 km (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) 35,600 x 36,052 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35,441 x 36,299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)
TLE#79 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 62.7 days, +  0km)
TLE#78 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+22.8 hours, at 62.7 days, +146km)
TLE#77 (05-20-2008 10:51:25) 35,350 x 36,345 km (+ 9.4 hours, at 61.7 days, -  2km)
TLE#76 (05-20-2008 01:27:30) 35,352 x 36,444 km (+11.9 hours, at 61.3 days, +146km)
TLE#75 (05-19-2008 13:35:22) 35,206 x 36,441 km (+57.5 hours, at 60.8 days, +318km)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) 32,976 x 38,782 km (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)
TLE#59 (05-01-2008 10:53:37) 32,718 x 38,919 km (+ 2.0 hours, at 42.7 days, -  4km)
TLE#58 (05-01-2008 08:56:17) 32,722 x 38,942 km (+ 4.7 hours, at 42.6 days, - 10km)
TLE#56 (05-01-2008 04:12:03) 32,732 x 39,025 km (+ 5.9 hours, at 42.4 days, + 26km)
TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+ 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days, +108km)
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days, +313km)
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days, - 17km)
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days, +436km)
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days, +  1km)
TLE#51 (04-25-2008 16:26:46) 31,866 x 39,844 km (+23.6 hours, at 37.0 days, +125km)
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) 31,742 x 39,996 km (+ 3.0 hours, at 36.0 days, + 82km)
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) 31,660 x 39,991 km (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days, +291km)
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) 31,369 x 40,366 km (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days, + 60km)
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) 31,309 x 40,411 km (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days, +194km)
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) 31,115 x 40,623 km (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days, +232km)
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days, +268km)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+12.4 hours, at 27.7 days)
TLE#40 (04-15-2008 21:36:00) 30,507 x 41,115 km (+12.8 hours, at 27.2 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+ 2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)
TLE#28 (04-07-2008 15:50:52) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+23.6 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#26 (04-06-2008 16:13:19) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+ 2.9 hours, at 17.9 days)
TLE#25 (04-06-2008 13:20:15) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+20.7 hours, at 17.8 days)
TLE#24 (04-05-2008 16:35:47) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+ 3.7 hours, at 17.0 days)
TLE#23 (04-05-2008 12:54:59) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+12.9 hours, at 16.8 days)
TLE#22 (04-05-2008 00:00:00) 29,624 x 41,227 km (+ 6.2 hours, at 16.3 days)
TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+  .3 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+  .5 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#21 (04-04-2008 16:59:06) 29,456 x 41,232 km (+62.6 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+ 7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+ 3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17)  7,386 x 40,989 km (+ 5.3 hours, at  9.2 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00)  7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at  9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12)  7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at  8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22)    468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at  7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42)    468 x 40,742 km (+ 1.9 hours, at  7.0 days)
TLE# 8 (03-26-2008 14:30:15)    469 x 40,742 km (+  .1 hours, at  6.9 days)
TLE# 7 (03-26-2008 14:24:00)    474 x 40,738 km (+33.7 hours, at  6.9 days)
TLE# 6 (03-25-2008 04:40:59)    463 x 38,996 km (+11.9 hours, at  5.5 days)
TLE# 5 (03-24-2008 16:48:00)    473 x 38,991 km (+11.3 hours, at  5.0 days)
TLE# 4 (03-24-2008 05:32:23)    463 x 36,484 km (+87.6 hours, at  4.5 days)
TLE# 3 (03-20-2008 13:54:34)    268 x 36,474 km (+ 8.9 hours, at   .9 days)
TLE# 2 (03-20-2008 04:58:00)    273 x 36,476 km (+11.5 hours, at   .5 days)
TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29)    243 x 36,067 km (Original)

*9/9/2004 - Original D11 Technical Info - FCC Filing:*http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-73809​
*10/10/2007 & 3/21/2008 - FCC Filings - D11 will transmit from 99.225° W.L. within 18.3-18.8 Ghz Range:*
10/10/2007: "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."

3/21/2008: "On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification for the DIRECTV 11 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the DIRECTV 11 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.225º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink)). This authorization is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in the application, the attachment to the grant, and the Commission's rules."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-608A1.pdf​*3/19/2008 - SeaLaunch Mission Page (Photo's Below):* http://www.sea-launch.com/past_directv-11.html

*3/19/2008 - Launch Video:* 




*5/23/2008 - FCC Filings - D11 to conduct testing from 99.4° W.L. within 18.3-18.8 Ghz Range:*
"On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations necessary to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."​
*6/13/2008 - FCC Filings (from 10/31/2007) - Experimental 17/24 GHz BSS Communications Payload on DIRECTV 11:*
"In order to help develop operational data on this band, DIRECTV has added to DIRECTV 11 an experimental payload operating in the 17.3-17.7 GHz (downlink) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (uplink) bands. It has been granted an STA to operate at 100.7° W.L. ± 0.3° in order to test the interaction of 17/24 GHz BSS and Direct Broadcast Satellite ("DBS") operations in close proximity near 101° W.L."

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=85637&x=
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=89556&x=​*7/1/2008 & 7/7/2008 - FCC Filing - Single Ka-band beam testing at 100.7°:*"DIRECTV .. hereby requests Special Temporary Authority ... to conduct in-orbit testing ... of a single Ka-band beam ... at the 100.7° W.L. orbital location for a period of approximately two days during the week of July 7-11."

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-150543

"On July 7, 2008, the Satellite Policy Branch granted special temporary authority to DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) for a period of two days between July 7, 2008 and July 11, 2008, to conduct in-orbit testing of DIRECTV 11 satellite using the 29.437 GHz uplink (Earth-to-space) and 18.732 GHz downlink (space-to-Earth) frequencies at the 100.7 W.L. orbital location, using the Los Angeles downlink spot beam ..."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1637A1.pdf​
*7/21/2008 - Press Release - DirecTV has taken on-orbit delivery of D11:*
"The Boeing Company today announced that DIRECTV Inc. has taken on-orbit delivery of the DIRECTV 11 satellite ..."

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html​*Tracking (Simulated):* http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
*Note:* The n2yo site shows the simulated path of D11 based on the last D11 TLE. "Live Tracking" is not really "live", but rather an extrapolation based on the last TLE. Also, the n2yo site does not always have the latest TLE. There can be several hours before the n2yo site updates with the latest TLE, and there can be several days between official TLE's.​*Tracking (Pictorial View):* http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT

*Launch Photos:*








*High Resolution: *http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-wide.jpg








*High Resolution:* http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-tall.jpg
View attachment 13761


----------



## c152driver

What happens to the upper stage after separation? Is it forever space junk?


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Congrats to DirecTV and SeaLaunch.

Now it's in Boeings hands. Good Luck.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok Boeing it's up to you. Good job Sea Launch


----------



## reh523

Earl Bonovich said:


> "signal strength" on our boxes for 99 #2


Nothing yet, should I call D*?


----------



## ziltomil

What kind of security do they have to prevent others from hijacking the satellite?


----------



## Davenlr

I always wondered about that. Think they could point it to deep space and fire off the remaining fuel and get rid of it.


----------



## sbl

You'd need the secret code: 12345.


----------



## ziltomil

sbl said:


> You'd need the secret code: 12345.


Shhhhh... The DISH guys might hear!


----------



## syphix

sbl said:


> You'd need the secret code: 12345.


Wrong. They changed it: 02468.

I'll have control this Friday evening!!!


----------



## cartrivision

ziltomil said:


> What kind of security do they have to prevent others from hijacking the satellite?


All the control commands are encrypted using ROT13.


----------



## PlinytheWelder

Just aim your remote at D11 and push 0 2 4 6 8 slowly...:up_to_som


----------



## Hansen

sbl said:


> You'd need the secret code: 12345.


Isn't is 02468 after a restart? :lol:


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> All the control commands are encrypted using ROT13.


no they triple encrypt using PGP :sure:


----------



## satcomranger

Hansen said:


> Isn't is 02468 after a restart? :lol:


Just don't push the red button


----------



## Blurayfan

Sea Launch did a great job with the launch. Their estimated Prelaunch orbit figures were either exact with actual orbit or only a difference of 2.8.
Estimated Perigee: 250
Actual Perigee:250
Estimated Apogee: 36482
Actual Apogee: 36484.8
Estimated Inclination: 0
Actual Inclination: 0


----------



## RAD

D* VP said they now have two months of tasks to do, guess we're looking at about the 60 mark before seeing new channels via D11.


----------



## syphix

May 20th?? Aww.....shucks...


----------



## ctaranto

Congrats to Sea Launch. I can now stop refreshing http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/ and continued explaination to my co-workers about how excited I am about this rocket.

-Craig


----------



## jazzyd971fm

Just in time for Memorial Day Weekend !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## loudo

I am hoping to see Travel Channel HD soon, maybe. :biggthump


----------



## SPACEMAKER

So far, so good. If someone would have told me just a few months ago that I'd have watched a satellite launch with such a degree of interest I'd have told them they were crazy.


----------



## tuff bob

SPACEMAKER said:


> So far, so good. If someone would have told me just a few months ago that I'd have watched a satellite launch with such a degree of interest I'd have told them they were crazy.


don't you just love this stuff :lol:


----------



## mhayes70

Congrats on a picture perfect launch!


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Everything was NOMINAL.


----------



## drx792

The D* VP mentioned that they carry Disney HD (well he was just randomly naming things) someone should tell him it didnt launch yet..........it should though as if scheduled for winter as spring is very very close.

Nice job with the launch BTW. Congrats!!


----------



## LameLefty

c152driver said:


> What happens to the upper stage after separation? Is it forever space junk?


It's in a very elliptic orbit and combined with the fact that it's both pretty big (as space junk goes) and now pretty light, it would decay on its own fairly soon (months perhaps). But I do believe that the empty stages are designed to either safe themselves (vent all propellants and gases, discharge batteries . . .) or deorbit themselves (dump remaining propellants propulsively against their velocity vector to slow down and thus reenter much sooner).


----------



## flipptyfloppity

Anyone know when/where I can catch the replay?


----------



## dmurphy

sbl said:


> You'd need the secret code: 12345.


Amazing! That's the same combination as my luggage!


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

flipptyfloppity said:


> Anyone know when/where I can catch the replay?


Channel 573 is repeating all evening.


----------



## Sixto

We now move from the Webcam to our new favorite website: http://www.n2yo.com

Awaiting D11's add ...


----------



## rotohead

I'm old enough to vividly remember the day of Sputnik and the awe (and fear) I felt. I watch most Space Shuttle launches live but this Sea Launch event was so great I think I'll pop a cold one and enjoy what space technology has brought to my life. I was a early adapter of HD so I can appreciate what we have now and where we're going to be in just a few short months. My hat's off to D*, Boeing, and Sea Launch. The private sector is the answer to future...not the feds.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Hey....the space shuttle is there. Cool.


----------



## Hoxxx

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that the SeaLaunch segment is complete...
> 
> Let's restart the discussion here... and continue tracking D11 until we see the "signal strength" on our boxes for 99 #2


Sounds like a great idea. go go go D11


----------



## moonman

flipptyfloppity said:


> Anyone know when/where I can catch the replay?


Ch 573 or 578 3/20 every 2 hours 6AM-6PM


----------



## jefbal99

ziltomil said:


> What kind of security do they have to prevent others from hijacking the satellite?


Captain Midnight anybody?


----------



## Sixto

Just posted ...

"A Zenit-3SL rocket lifted off at 3:48 pm PDT (22:48 GMT) from the Odyssey Launch Platform, positioned at 154 degrees West Longitude, precisely on schedule. All systems performed nominally throughout the flight. The Block DM-SL upper stage inserted the 5,923 kg (13,058 lb) DIRECTV 11 satellite into geosynchronous transfer orbit, on its way to a final orbital position at 99.2 degrees West Longitude. Acquisition of the spacecraft's first signals from orbit is expected in a few hours."

http://www.sea-launch.com/current_launch.htm


----------



## Sixto

And the press release:

http://www.sea-launch.com/news_releases/nr_080319.html


----------



## doctor j

Naming the Stage

FSU literature started to refer to the fourth stage of the Proton 
booster as being the "Block D" in the early 1980s, a designator which 
was immediately realised to be anomalous. From descriptions of 
labelling the Korolyov Sputnik-Vostok-Soyuz-Molniya family of launch 
 vehicles it was known that it was normal practice for the rocket 
stages to be named in cyrillic alphabetical order and since "D" is the 
fifth letter in the cyrillic alphabet the Proton Block D must have 
started life as the fifth stage on another FSU launch vehicle.

Source:

http://www.friends-partners.org/oldfriends/jgreen/blockd.html

Doctor j


----------



## ATARI

dmurphy said:


> Amazing! That's the same combination as my luggage!


Somebody else finally got the Spaceballs reference.

HOOT!! :lol:


----------



## jazzyd971fm

Sixto said:


> We now move from the Webcam to our new favorite website: http://www.n2yo.com
> 
> Awaiting D11's add ...


Thanks for the link Sixto


----------



## skierbri10

I feel a bit bad for the Dish people, I am sure they feel very deflated right now.


----------



## mjones73

dmurphy said:


> Amazing! That's the same combination as my luggage!


Spaceballs, such a great movie.


----------



## HoTat2

Humm …during the interview by Sea Launch’s …well let’s just say less than colorful mission narrator Paula Korn. Phil Goswitz, V.P. of Space and Communications DirecTV, confirmed they now have six uplink stations. 

I know five of them, Castle Rock, Colorado of course. The Los Angeles Broadcast Center (in El Segundo, CA.), Oakdale, Minnesota (the former USSB site). Winchester, Virginia, and one somewhere in New York. But does anyone happen to know of the location of the sixth one? And where exactly in New York is the fifth one based?


----------



## Sixto

*DirecTV-11 Launch*


----------



## jrodfoo

great picture!


----------



## RUBBLE

This stuff still amazes me.


----------



## slacker_x

drx792 said:


> The D* VP mentioned that they carry Disney HD (well he was just randomly naming things) someone should tell him it didnt launch yet..........it should though as if scheduled for winter as spring is very very close.
> 
> Nice job with the launch BTW. Congrats!!


I can assure you that DirecTV is capable of receiving HD feeds from Disney as of late last night/early this morning.


----------



## Cable_X

Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that the SeaLaunch segment is complete...
> 
> Let's restart the discussion here... and continue tracking D11 until we see the "signal strength" on our boxes for 99 #2


Forgive the ignorance, but is that 99 (c) or 99(s)?


----------



## DCSholtis

99 #2 what is this in reference to. Sat 99 2nd transponder?!!


----------



## Sixto

Cable_X said:


> Forgive the ignorance, but is that 99 (c) or 99(s)?


It's 99 (c).

(c) is for CONUS.

The 2nd satellite at 99.


----------



## bobojay

RUBBLE said:


> This stuff still amazes me.


DITTO!


----------



## John4924

Thanks Sixto! Great picture.


----------



## DCSholtis

Sixto said:


> It's 99 (c).
> 
> (c) is for CONUS.
> 
> The 2nd satellite at 99.


Thanks, Sixto!


----------



## Koz

Cable_X said:


> Forgive the ignorance, but is that 99 (c) or 99(s)?


C and S are for Conus and Spotbeam. Directv 11 will broadcast to both.


----------



## GAM

From Webster.com:

5: being according to plan : satisfactory <everything was nominal during the launch>


----------



## Carl Spock

Sixto said:


> *DirecTV-11 Launch*


Here's a hi-rez version of this picture.


----------



## GAM

Carl Spock said:


> Here's a hi-rez version of this picture.


Too Cooooool!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It should be another 3 hours or so before D11 says "everything is fine up here" to the ground station in South Africa.

That will be the last milestone until other testing is completed on board the unit itself over the weeks ahead.


----------



## michaelyork29

I can see more HD channels in the future...


----------



## LameLefty

I'm officially excited.


----------



## XZAVER

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Channel 573 is repeating all evening.


Where can we find a full replay online tho ? :hurah: :nono2:


----------



## njblackberry

Me, too. Watching the launch (OK, slightly delayed - got home very late) and this is amazing.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

XZAVER said:


> Where can we find a full replay online tho ? :hurah: :nono2:


Sea-Launch will have it up some time within the next 12 hours or so on their site...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

XZAVER said:


> Where can we find a full replay online tho ? :hurah: :nono2:


No where yet.

You will have to wait for SeaLaunch to post it (or it to hit YouTube)


----------



## doctor j

HoTat2 said:


> Humm &#8230;during the interview by Sea Launch's &#8230;well let's just say less than colorful mission narrator Paula Korn. Phil Goswitz, V.P. of Space and Communications DirecTV, confirmed they now have six uplink stations.
> 
> I know five of them, Castle Rock, Colorado of course. The Los Angeles Broadcast Center (in El Segundo, CA.), Oakdale, Minnesota (the former USSB site). Winchester, Virginia, and one somewhere in New York. But does anyone happen to know of the location of the sixth one? And where exactly in New York is the fifth one based?


Not easy to find but this could be it.

http://www.viasat.com/press/view.php?id=252

Doctor j


----------



## Binary

What exactly is D11 for? I mean, they wanna phase out the older sats soon right--will the feeds come from this one? D10 isn't maxed out yet it is? Or in other words as drx792 mentioned about how Disney HD has yet to go live--do the next wave of channels roll out on the new bird? And I can't even really think of many other HD channels, and by that time D12 will be up...Or do we start from the beginning and D12's purpose is for phasing out the older sats (and D11 is for new HD within the next years)?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Binary said:


> What exactly is D11 for? I mean, they wanna phase out the older sats soon right--will the feeds come from this one? D10 isn't maxed out yet it is? Or in other words as drx792 mentioned about how Disney HD has yet to go live--do the next wave of channels roll out on the new bird? And I can't even really think of many other HD channels, and by that time D12 will be up...Or do we start from the beginning and D12's purpose is for phasing out the older sats (and D11 is for new HD within the next years)?


D11's two "primary" purposes are for NATIONAL HD expansion (CONUS streams), and SpotBeamed HD Locals-In-Local coverage.

It will also before expansion of SD Locals-In-Locals.

The Sat that is planned to be phased out, is usage of the 72.5 sat.

D10 is not maxed out yet.

The next "wave" would probably be on D10... and then things balanced out once D11 is operational.

D12 is a "bonus" since it's primary purpose was a backup to D10 and D11 (and it will probably serve as an in-space backup as well to those two), and all is known about it's plans is that it will help continue to expand the HD bandwith.


----------



## bdowell

DVDKingdom said:


> Sea Launch did a great job with the launch. Their estimated Prelaunch orbit figures were either exact with actual orbit or only a difference of 2.8.
> Estimated Perigee: 250
> Actual Perigee:250
> Estimated Apogee: 36482
> Actual Apogee: 36484.8
> Estimated Inclination: 0
> Actual Inclination: 0


The Mission Analysts that I provide IT support to gave everyone a mission update and one of the things I noted was how close to target the vehicle was at the critical points. In terms of rocket science, dead on.

Excellent work by SeaLaunch and Boeing so far.

A well deserved celebration shown on the broadcast. I hope everyone there enjoyed the banquet. 

Makes me feel a bit more sorry for the poor folks at Dish/Echostar and their luck on their recent launch. If any were watching the SeaLaunch broadcast I'm sure they were terribly jealous of the vast difference in how the events unfolded over both launches.

Hopefully Dish can still get their bird operational for at least some period of time, and hopefully their next launch will be far more successful so the competition will resume between both companies.


----------



## P Smith

I'd like to all remind you - D11 is far away from destination point, we need to wait OK at least for GSO orbit first, then we will watch moving to 99.2W.
Not there yet. Waiting for third burn.


----------



## wilmot3

SPACEMAKER said:


> So far, so good. If someone would have told me just a few months ago that I'd have watched a satellite launch with such a degree of interest I'd have told them they were crazy.


you and me both


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> I'd like to all remind you - D11 is far away from destination point, we need to wait OK at least for GSO orbit first, then we will watch moving to 99.2W.
> Not there yet. Waiting for third burn.


granted, but Sealaunch put D11 into exactly the place that it needed to be to start the move to final orbit. so far it has been a beauty of a ride.


----------



## ncgbrown

What is the time frame for the final nudge to 99.2 - hours or days?


----------



## XZAVER

Earl Bonovich said:


> No where yet.
> 
> You will have to wait for SeaLaunch to post it (or it to hit YouTube)


That was fast 

youtube.com/watch?v=QFZjYzk3RI0


----------



## curt8403

ncgbrown said:


> What is the time frame for the final nudge to 99.2 - hours or days?


weeks my friend, weeks like 4 weeks


----------



## Tom Robertson

An oldie, but a goodie that I missed the first time around:


Supervolcano said:


> We know that each station is alloted a fixed amount of bandwidth they can use for their frequency.
> 
> We know that each station has the option to split up that fixed amount of bandwidth any way they see fit (aka: more subchannels means less bandwidth per channel).
> 
> Can you verify if they have the bandwidth to broadcast 1,500 HD locals which are all using their "maximum bandwidth potential"?
> 
> Because if that's where the number "1,500" came from, then all the digital subchannels that each station is broadcasting would "be included in that station's alloted bandwidth".
> 
> Hypothetical Example: If every single local station is broadcasting their "main channel plus one subchannel", then TECHNICALLY directv could offer "3,000 local channels".
> 
> Is this the case?
> 
> Or does that 1,500 number come from "fuzzy math" that figured out what the average station is using for bandwidth on JUST their main channel?


I do not know, but I can surmise some things.

The short answer is "most likely a bit of both". They can almost carry 1,500 full bitrate channels counting upon some amount of compression and bitsharing between the channels, I'm guessing.

So in your hypotetical, I could guess DIRECTV could possibly carry something similar to the 3,000 you suggest. From a bitrate perspective, can I wild ass guess 2,500-2,800? (No real data in hand, mind you.)

And they might be able to do more if they didn't reserve some bandwidth in case of failure.

Now a dose of reality. I'm sure you know that DIRECTV really isn't constrained by the bitrate in your examples. The problem is each subchannel needs its own reciever and transcoder today. (I haven't seen any "take a full OTA channel and compress the whole sheband for DIRECTV" transcoders yet.) 

And I am pretty sure many of the subchannels won't be very interesting to DIRECTV to carry unless the FCC requires them ALL. (I'm still trying to find today's reported clarification on the carry rules.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## sdicomp

Great Job, Sea-Launch! Good Luck Boeing! All of us HD'ers mouths are watering!!!


----------



## Binary

Earl Bonovich said:


> D11's two "primary" purposes are for NATIONAL HD expansion (CONUS streams), and SpotBeamed HD Locals-In-Local coverage.
> 
> It will also before expansion of SD Locals-In-Locals.
> 
> The Sat that is planned to be phased out, is usage of the 72.5 sat.
> 
> D10 is not maxed out yet.
> 
> The next "wave" would probably be on D10... and then things balanced out once D11 is operational.
> 
> D12 is a "bonus" since it's primary purpose was a backup to D10 and D11 (and it will probably serve as an in-space backup as well to those two), and all is known about it's plans is that it will help continue to expand the HD bandwith.


Cool, nice anwser! Yeah I thought I remembered D12 as being a backup (spare). I guess it makes sense to send it up. Wonder what slot it'll use.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Binary said:


> Cool, nice anwser! Yeah I thought I remembered D12 as being a backup (spare). I guess it makes sense to send it up. Wonder what slot it'll use.


We'll definitely know when DIRECTV completes the FCC filings. 

Or when they announce a launching company.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## upnorth

And this is why I stayed with DirecTV when I upgraded to HD back in March 2006 even tho they only had 9 national HD channels.
The payoff is here now this is awesome.


----------



## HawkEye19

Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


----------



## P Smith

HawkEye19 said:


> Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


TRy Google map.


----------



## MikeR7

HawkEye19 said:


> Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


Hidden somewhere within the secretive 3M complex off of Century avenue. I lived across the street from there 30 years ago, in an apartment building on Tanners Lake. (I made up the part about it being in the 3M complex)


----------



## P Smith

curt8403 said:


> granted, but Sealaunch put D11 into exactly the place that it needed to be to start the move to final orbit. so far it has been a beauty of a ride.


That last burn still precise task by creating proper impulse, duration and orientation. Lets wait for ending that phase.


----------



## LameLefty

HawkEye19 said:


> Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


Nah, but I guess a call to the local Chamber of Commerce would give you an address, or perhaps digging around on Google Earth - even if you couldn't ID the uplink center yourself, I bet some enterprising local person has tagged it in the Community layers.


----------



## HawkEye19

I have hunch where it is. Not too many places in Oakdale where you can hide giant billboard-type antenna.

And that does explain why they are there!


----------



## Tom Robertson

At this point, all burns are about the same--tweak the orbit. Either the engine fires and stops at the right time or it doesn't. We no longer have "a massive lifting burn to get it at the right altitude, which is AMC-14's problem, no lifting engine and isn't high enough.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

HawkEye19 said:


> I have hunch where it is. Not too many places in Oakdale where you can hide giant billboard-type antenna.
> 
> And that does explain why they are there!


sure there are. like a drive-in theatre (spies like us)


----------



## jefbal99

HawkEye19 said:


> I have hunch where it is. Not too many places in Oakdale where you can hide giant billboard-type antenna.
> 
> And that does explain why they are there!


Try 6287 32nd St N, Saint Paul, MN

Looks like 4 good sized dishes there


----------



## HawkEye19

jefbal99 said:


> Try 6287 32nd St N, Saint Paul, MN
> 
> Looks like 4 good sized dishes there


Yep, that's exactly where I was thinking.


----------



## jrodfoo

we will be hearing these three letters very soon..... T....L....E


----------



## jefbal99

HawkEye19 said:


> Yep, that's exactly where I was thinking.


Hell, Lansing is the 112 DMA and our news stations have dishes that sized at their offices.

I don't think it takes much to uplink to a bird, we are not talking like a dish the sized of a football field or something


----------



## Tom Robertson

Few news stations have 30m dishes...


----------



## mikejos

HDTVsportsfan said:


> Channel 573 is repeating all evening.


Is this the HD version or will the HD version be available from D11? Chicken or the egg I think.


----------



## TomF

jazzyd971fm said:


> Thanks for the link Sixto


Anybody have any idea how soon we'll be able to see D-11 on this site? I know that first it has to at least check in at 9:48pm PDT, but how long after that? A day or so?


----------



## jefbal99

Tom Robertson said:


> Few news stations have 30m dishes...


Tibb, i must have had my zoom screwed up when I was looking at the satellite images, because when i just compared screen shots, the dishes in minnesota appear to be about twice the size.

my bad


----------



## turbo_oasis

When the panels extend their arms it should say....E* YOU SUCK AT LIFE


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sixto said:


> We now move from the Webcam to our new favorite website: http://www.n2yo.com
> 
> Awaiting D11's add ...


i wonder how long it will take them to add it...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

HawkEye19 said:


> Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


what gets uplinked from there? i thought the uplink centers were in LA and castle rock?


----------



## syphix

jefbal99 said:


> Try 6287 32nd St N, Saint Paul, MN
> 
> Looks like 4 good sized dishes there


Are these them?? My family is in Woodbury...I my have to make a visit sometime soon just to "wander by"...


----------



## rrrick8

XZAVER said:


> Where can we find a full replay online tho ? :hurah: :nono2:


It'll be in the CE download. You have to activate by doing an IAMANEDGECUTTER search for "NOMINAL"


----------



## ChrisPC

HawkEye19 said:


> Anyone have an idea _where_ in Oakdale, Minnesota is the uplink center?


Is that the old USSB facility?


----------



## Interceptor

syphix said:


> Are these them?? My family is in Woodbury...I my have to make a visit sometime soon just to "wander by"...


Oh yeah... Looks like it to me. You can also select the "Bird's Eye View" on maps.live.com and see a terrific shot from the side. I'd post the image, but don't want to anger the big kahuna Microsoft.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...t=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6164366&encType=1

Never mind, I figured out how to link to it.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

dunno if this has been posted yet... but i just found this... http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-73809


----------



## syphix

Interceptor said:


> Oh yeah... Looks like it to me. You can also select the "Bird's Eye View" on maps.live.com and see a terrific shot from the side. I'd post the image, but don't want to anger the big kahuna Microsoft.
> 
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...t=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6164366&encType=1
> 
> Never mind, I figured out how to link to it.


Those are HUGE dishes!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

AirRocker said:


> dunno if this has been posted yet... but i just found this... http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-73809


Yup, about a year ago: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Tom Robertson said:


> Yup, about a year ago: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295


:shrug:

i wasn't here a year ago... 

(i know it's a sticky  )


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Interceptor said:


> Oh yeah... Looks like it to me. You can also select the "Bird's Eye View" on maps.live.com and see a terrific shot from the side. I'd post the image, but don't want to anger the big kahuna Microsoft.
> 
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...t=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=6164366&encType=1
> 
> Never mind, I figured out how to link to it.


link won't work for me... 

just keeps goin back to http://intl.local.live.com/


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> i wonder how long it will take them to add it...


I'm guessing we'll see D11 within 24-48 hours ...

http://www.n2yo.com/latest_launches.php


----------



## Interceptor

AirRocker said:


> link won't work for me...
> 
> just keeps goin back to http://intl.local.live.com/


Hmmm... dunno. Works here. I found it by going to http://maps.live.com/ and keying in the address listed above. It didn't center on it, but is just few hundred yards northeast of the actual site. Bird's eye view gives you four angles.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

wow... google earth is fun... 

just found the castle rock uplink center...


----------



## Interceptor

Catalog #32729 shows to have been launched today. Space-Track shows it as "Object A". TLE shows it is currently traveling along the equator. Could this be our baby?


----------



## davemayo

syphix said:


> Are these them?? My family is in Woodbury...I my have to make a visit sometime soon just to "wander by"...


My wife's brother and his family live in Woodbury. Nice town.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

and i guess this is the one in LA...


----------



## TomF

Interceptor said:


> Catalog #32729 shows to have been launched today. Space-Track shows it as "Object A". TLE shows it is currently traveling along the equator. Could this be our baby?


Can you post some links to what you're referring to?

I Googled "Space-Track" and got this link, but it also says "Due to existing National Security Restrictions pertaining to access of and use of U.S. Government-provided information and data, all users accessing this web site must be an approved registered user to access data on this site."


----------



## Sixto

TomF said:


> Can you post some links to what you're referring to?
> 
> I Googled "Space-Track" and got this link, but it also says "Due to existing National Security Restrictions pertaining to access of and use of U.S. Government-provided information and data, all users accessing this web site must be an approved registered user to access data on this site."


Referring to this site ...

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

That's the link for D10. We're guessing at the "s=" for D11


----------



## TomF

Sixto said:


> Referring to this site ...
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862
> 
> That's the link for D10. We're guessing at the "s=" for D11


I've been searching this site for DirecTV 11 since the launch and I haven't found anything that would refer to it. On the "Search Database" page there is a search by date launched and it returns nothing for today. Also returns nothing for DirecTV 11.

What's the "s=" that you're referring to?


----------



## Interceptor

TomF said:


> Can you post some links to what you're referring to?
> 
> I Googled "Space-Track" and got this link, but it also says "Due to existing National Security Restrictions pertaining to access of and use of U.S. Government-provided information and data, all users accessing this web site must be an approved registered user to access data on this site."


I logged in. Here's a screenshot of the TLE...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

TomF said:


> What's the "s=" that you're referring to?


in the address line...


----------



## Sixto

TomF said:


> What's the "s=" that you're referring to?


The "s=" is the value that site will give to D11 when it's noticed. It will go into that url link

D10 is http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

Awaiting "s=" value for D11 ...


----------



## Reggie3

Congrats


----------



## Interceptor

If I recall, when D-10 was in its early stages and was still in transit to GSO, the n2yo site normally stayed at least a day behind. Space-Track generally gave us the most recent info. Still not sure if 32729 will be the catalog number for D-11, but I'm hoping to know for sure soon. It sure is coincidental.


----------



## tuff bob

looking at the recent launches, the s= numbers are sequential.


----------



## smiddy

Man, sorry I missed the party. What a launch though...excellent Ruski Speak on the count down too.

Have they heard from the bird yet? It's about that time isn't it?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> looking at the recent launches, the s= numbers are sequential.


Not so sure.

Just logged into Space Track as well, shows one launch for today: *32729*


----------



## P Smith

syphix said:


> Are these them?? My family is in Woodbury...I my have to make a visit sometime soon just to "wander by"...


You guys pickup wrong one - DoD will give you a warning !
It's Over-the-horizon radar.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Not so sure.
> 
> Just logged into Space Track as well, shows one launch for today: *32729*


can you cut & paste whatever data is showing?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> can you cut & paste whatever data is showing?


OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08079.72950595 -.00000595 00000-0 00000+0 0 14
2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713 07

The only launch from today.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> OBJECT A
> 1 32729U 08013A 08079.72950595 -.00000595 00000-0 00000+0 0 14
> 2 32729* 000.0442* 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713 07
> 
> The only launch from today.


An inclination of 0.0442, that's a really good clue


----------



## yuppers519

tuff bob said:


> can you cut & paste whatever data is showing?


when i go to that site and delete the last five numbers and put in *32729, it says it is the space shuttle*


----------



## Sixto

NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	03-19-2008 17:30:29
Orbit # at Epoch	0
Inclination	0.044
RA of A. Node	41.924
Eccentricity	0.7301134
Argument of Perigee	137.325
Revs per day	2.25930713
Period	10h 37m 21s (637.35 min)
Semi-major axis	24 533 km
Perigee x Apogee	243 x 36 067 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	154.135
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	1 / 0 day(s)

Lon	109.7829° E
Lat	0.0036° S
Alt (km)	36 024.090
Azm	89.0°
Elv	-9.2°
RA	00h 10m 35s
Decl	-6° 47' 05"
Range (km)	42 955.241
RRt (km/s)	0.011
Vel (km/s)	1.598
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	171.4° (121)
TA	178.0°
Orbit #	1
Mag (illum)	Not visible
Constellation	Psc


----------



## Interceptor

yuppers519 said:


> when i go to that site and delete the last five numbers and put in *32729, it says it is the space shuttle*


I think n2yo is defaulting to the shuttle. If you mouse-over the STS-123, you'll see that it is catalog number 32699.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

so... no confirmation signal yet??


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom  ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709  ...


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom  ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709  ... it was at 11,800 when i started watching it 2 minutes ago... it's already fallen 1000 feet...


I thought the way that site works is that it just takes a TLE from an exact point in time and then extrapolates the future ... it's not actually real-time.


----------



## Interceptor

I just ran a simulation on the TLE from 32729, and the locations matched up almost exactly with what's on the Sea-Launch site. I'm more convinced than ever that this is going to be our bird!


----------



## yuppers519

AirRocker said:


> i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom  ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709  ...


wow that suckers dropping quick


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sixto said:


> I thought the way that site works is that it just takes a TLE from an exact point in time and then extrapolates the future ... it's not actually real-time.


ahh... could be


----------



## Sixto

Interceptor said:


> I just ran a simulation on the TLE from 32729, and the locations matched up almost exactly with what's on the Sea-Launch site. I'm more convinced than ever that this is going to be our bird!


Yep, also added the lon/lat and alt to above post, from the only TLE we have.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Yep, also added the lon/lat and alt to above post, from the only TLE we have.


yep, I think this is it, the inclination is the key hint, the whole point of sea launch is they get stuff into orbit with a 0 inclination. Also the height is about perfect for the apogee of the GTO.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

AirRocker, I count 30 dishes at Castle Rock and 16 in LA? 

Is that what you guys see too?


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> so... no confirmation signal yet??


Was gonna be 6 hours from launch, which is right now. plus/minus 30-60 mins. Soon (hopefully!)

They must find it. I gotta go to bed!


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> OBJECT A
> 1 32729U 08013A 08079.72950595 -.00000595 00000-0 00000+0 0 14
> 2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713 07
> 
> The only launch from today.


congrats on posting the first TLE. Now we just need "OBJECT A" to phone home


----------



## cartrivision

AirRocker said:


> i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom  ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709  ...


Since it's probably in an elliptical orbit, it's going to be both declining *and* rising in altitude depending on when you happen to be looking at it.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

theratpatrol said:


> AirRocker, I count 30 dishes at Castle Rock and 16 in LA?
> 
> Is that what you guys see too?


i didn't count yet


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

cartrivision said:


> Since it's probably in an elliptical orbit, it's going to be both declining *and* rising in altitude depending on when you happen to be looking at it.


when i started watching it... it was at 11k miles... that was 5 minutes ago... now it's at 5k miles?? seems pretty drastic to me... guess we'll find out in another 5 minutes :lol:


----------



## Interceptor

Hey Sixto:

Take a look at this "target" from the Sea-Launch page and compare to your perigee and apogee above. Darn close!


----------



## tuff bob

Phone Home D11!


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> Phone Home D11!


Problem now is that we have no way to check for phone home.

We're at the mercy of the person who updates the web-site.

It may have called home already. Just no way to know.

And we wait ...  ... and it's bedtime!


----------



## smiddy

Yeah, phone home!


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> And we wait ...  ... and it's bedtime!


it was bedtime about 4 hours ago. I'm running on fumes :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sixto said:


> I thought the way that site works is that it just takes a TLE from an exact point in time and then extrapolates the future ... it's not actually real-time.


the top of the site does say "REAL TIME SATELLITE TRACKING" though??


----------



## tuff bob

AirRocker said:


> the top of the site does say "REAL TIME SATELLITE TRACKING" though??


it tracks satellites in real time :lol:


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> the top of the site does say "REAL TIME SATELLITE TRACKING" though??


When I got my satellite tracking training from LameLefty during D10 ...  ...

All that site does is take these TLE entries ... which is an exact point in time ... with lots of great info ....

And then that site ... and most satellite tracking programs just extrapolate what will happen until the next TLE ...

I did download Orbitron along the way.

Everything I know is from LameLefty and the D10 thread for 2+ months ...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sixto said:


> When I got my satellite tracking training from LameLefty during D10 ...  ...
> 
> All that site does is take these TLE entries ... which is an exact point in time ... with lots of great info ....
> 
> And then that site ... and most satellite tracking programs just extrapolate what will happen until the next TLE ...
> 
> I did download Orbitron along the way.
> 
> Everything I know is from LameLefty and the D10 thread for 2+ months ...


well... all i know is n2yo shows AMC-14 falling at over 3 miles a second.. and in 16 minutes... it will be splash down time...


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> well... all i know is n2yo shows AMC-14 falling at over 3 miles a second.. and in 16 minutes... it will be splash down time...


a splash in charlie's pool? ... 

back to topic ...

just called the hotline ... no news.


----------



## Blurayfan

Sea-Launch also has a Toll-FREE line for Launch status updates. No updates posted on DirecTV-11 yet.
1-800-995-4123


----------



## yuppers519

DVDKingdom said:


> Sea-Launch also has a Toll-FREE line for Launch status updates. No updates posted on DirecTV-11 yet.
> 1-800-995-4123


i just called and it says it is in orbit and everything is fine. it will be at its final spot in a few hours


----------



## smiddy

No comms yet though eh?


----------



## Blurayfan

yuppers519 said:


> i just called and it says it is in orbit and everything is fine. it will be at its final spot in a few hours


The message will be updated after the Satellite makes contact with the ground tracking station. Everybody is waiting for it to phone home.


----------



## tuff bob

getting a little nervous now


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tuff bob said:


> getting a little nervous now


like someone else said... not necessarily a bad sign... just kinda at the mercy of the web site updater...


----------



## DennisG

While we wait, here is another cool photo from the launch vessel.

The high-rez version at http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-tall.jpg is really a great photo.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

DennisG said:


> While we wait, here is another cool photo from the launch vessel.
> 
> The high-rez version at http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-tall.jpg is really a great photo.


wow.. That is a cool shot...


----------



## SParker

Boeing acquired a signal from the spacecraft at 10:44pm PDT (05:44 GMT), at the Hartebeesthoek Tracking facility in South Africa.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


----------



## Sixto

D11 phoned home!

"Boeing acquired a signal from the spacecraft at 10:44pm PDT (05:44 GMT), at the Hartebeesthoek Tracking facility in South Africa."

Great news!

Now we move to the next phase ... tracking D11 for the next 4-8 weeks.

Got my money on 4/30/2008.

Bedtime! ... nice day today!

Much more HD in our future ...


----------



## tuff bob

YEAHHHH


----------



## Koz

A signal has been received.
"Boeing acquired a signal from the spacecraft at 10:44pm PDT (05:44 GMT), at the Hartebeesthoek Tracking facility in South Africa."
http://www.sea-launch.com/current_launch.htm#current_mission


----------



## cforrest

Nice, took em long enough to update, LOL!


----------



## tuff bob

cforrest said:


> Nice, took em long enough to update, LOL!


20 mins or so, not too bad


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> Nice, took em long enough to update, LOL!


Took an extra hour then they thought. Originally was supposed to be at +6, happened at +7.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

good news!! time for bed


----------



## cforrest

Sixto said:


> Took an extra hour then they thought. Originally was supposed to be at +6, happened at +7.


That it did, was getting worried myself! In any event, I am calling it a night. I am sure in the overnight Boeing will put out a PR. For those up it should be updated at this link: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/index.html So hopefully someone can copy/paste and link to the PR when it is released by Boeing.


----------



## cartrivision

In other good news.... after coming within 600 miles of crashing into earth, AMC-14 is now at an altitude of more than 5000 miles and climbing.


----------



## ejjames

I'm no expert, but to raise a satellites orbit from 5,000 to more than 22,000 miles sounds like quite a feat!

Also, at 5,000 miles it must be orbiting the earth. So it's not just raising the altitude, it's timing it so it ends up in the proper position over North America.

I'm having trouble finding that thread. I usually have the dish forums removed. Could somebodt post them?

Thanks,
ej


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ejjames said:


> I'm having trouble finding that thread. I usually have the dish forums removed. Could somebodt post them?
> 
> Thanks,
> ej


Please note that this is a *DirecTV D11 Post-Launch Thread*, _not_ a Dish thread. You can do a simple search via the 6th menu item on top to find their contents.

:backtotop

*The official news:*

*"The Block DM-SL upper stage inserted the 5,923 kg (13,058 lb) DIRECTV 11 satellite into geosynchronous transfer orbit, on its way to a final orbital position at 99.2 degrees West Longitude.

Boeing acquired a signal from the spacecraft at 10:44pm PDT (05:44 GMT), at the Hartebeesthoek Tracking facility in South Africa. "*

Of course, this is great news. Over the next 70-90 days, DirecTV will conduct a myriad of tests on the unit, to assure all transponders, sensors, and other electronics onboard the D11 sat are functioning properly. Once test are complete, they'll start configurations for transponders to deploy specific channels.

Those events are now as critical to D11 as the launch. To this point, all is on target, but they still need to make sure the sat is operating as designed in the weeks and months ahead. You may recall D10 had a few transponder issues that seemed to have been rectified for the most part.

In any event, the launch mission was a success, now awaiting the activation phase. I found it interesting that the DirecTV announcement stated that D11 would be operational "in September". Perhaps this is to offset earlier startup speculation.

Additionally, DirecTV said it will launch yet another satellite (D12) in 2009 that will enable it to provide up to 200 national HD channels, which would indicate they have a launch contract nearly done or signed.


----------



## VARTV

Earl Bonovich said:


> D12 is a "bonus" since it's primary purpose was a backup to D10 and D11 (and it will probably serve as an in-space backup as well to those two), and all is known about it's plans is that it will help continue to expand the HD bandwith.


I think the VP said D12 would push their HD offerings to 200 national/200 local HD markets...


----------



## Thaedron

VARTV said:


> I think the VP said D12 would push their HD offerings to 200 national/200 local HD markets...


Did you mean 2000 local HD markets?


----------



## davemayo

This whole satellite launch process facinates me, but I am totally ignorant of how it works. Could someone point me to a website that explains in laymen's terms how they are able to park a satellite at a precise location 22,000 miles above Earth? 

Thanks.


----------



## MIAMI1683

VARTV said:


> I think the VP said D12 would push their HD offerings to 200 national/200 local HD markets...


I think it's more like 150 national and a whole lot more lil's. Like 84% of the country. I forgot the total new markets. Any news from boeing yet?


----------



## Thaedron

Thanks to Tom, Lamelefty, Sixto and all the others with "rocket science" backgrounds for providing additional technical details and "back story".

Grats to DirecTV and grats to us for future additional HD channels!


----------



## MIAMI1683

Forget the last question here's a copy of the release.

ST. LOUIS, March 20, 2008 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] has received the first on-orbit signals from its DIRECTV 11 satellite, indicating that the satellite is healthy and operating normally. A ground station in Hartebeesthoek, South Africa, reported spacecraft acquisition at 1:44 a.m. Eastern time, as scheduled.

The newest satellite for DIRECTV Inc. was launched on a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket on March 19 from Sea Launch's equatorial launch site in the Pacific Ocean.

"The successful launch of DIRECTV 11 marks another milestone in the evolution of DIRECTV as the leading satellite TV service and provider of high-definition programming," said Rômulo Pontual, DIRECTV's chief technology officer. "Through our long collaboration with Boeing and our commitment to deploying the most advanced technology, we are in the best competitive position to meet the growing demand for high-definition services and provide the most compelling viewing experience for our more than 16.8 million customers."

DIRECTV 11 is a Boeing 702 satellite with onboard technology that will enable DIRECTV to continue expanding its industry-leading lineup of quality High-Definition Television (HDTV) programming to its U.S. customers. DIRECTV 11, together with the DIRECTV 10 satellite launched last year, will provide DIRECTV with the capacity for 150 national HDTV channels and 1,500 local channels.

"Boeing and DIRECTV are celebrating 15 years of collaboration, and I cannot think of a better way to mark this occasion than with the successful delivery, launch and signal acquisition of the ninth satellite we've built for DIRECTV," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "We've come a long way since Boeing's first DIRECTV satellite, and we remain committed to their success as we work to deliver the next in the series of HDTV satellites."

DIRECTV 1, launched in 1993, boasted a solar wingspan of 86 feet and an innovative graphite-antenna system featuring transmit and receive reflectors with a contoured surface that required only one feedhorn antenna to provide an optimal signal. Today's DIRECTV 11 has a wingspan measuring more than 157 feet and supplements its antenna system with spot-beam technology capable of concentrating the broadcast signal to specific markets.

DIRECTV 11 is the second of three next-generation Boeing-built satellites that are helping to expand DIRECTV's market by providing technology that brings the crystal-clear sharpness of satellite-delivered HDTV into millions of households


----------



## hdtvfan0001

VARTV said:


> I think the VP said D12 would push their HD offerings to 200 national/200 local HD markets...


The plan is that D12 will ramp up capacity to a potential 200 National HD channels and 2000 HD LIL channels.

On the launch broadcast yesterday, the announcer stated that both the D10 and D11 sats had the capacity "to support up to about 750 HD channels *each*". If you do the math (plus the other sats with some HD bandwidth)...it all adds up.

D10 + D11 + D12 = 2150 total HD channel capacity, plus the other sats.


----------



## Carl Spock

cforrest said:


> Sixto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cforrest said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Koz said:
> 
> 
> 
> A signal has been received.
> "Boeing acquired a signal from the spacecraft at 10:44pm PDT (05:44 GMT), at the Hartebeesthoek Tracking facility in South Africa."
> 
> 
> 
> Nice, took em long enough to update, LOL!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Took an extra hour then they thought. Originally was supposed to be at +6, happened at +7.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That it did, was getting worried myself!
Click to expand...

This reminds me of me. I've got to tell you a story on me.

I grew up right next to JPL, where all deep space craft from the US are controlled. When I was twelve, my sister was in high school and dating the son of the Surveyor project manager. Surveyor was the first American craft to soft land on the Moon. I got all the press releases and glossy photos through his son and was fascinated by Surveyor. Surveyor had two low gain antennae and one high gain antenna. The low gain antennae were used in flying to the Moon, with the high gain one reserved for the lunar surface. When Surveyor One was launched, one of the low gain antennae didn't deploy. Howard Haglund, the project manager and his team weren't worried as the other antenna was working just fine. I, on the other hand, was very concerned, certain that the mission was on the edge of failure. My twelve year old concern made it to JPL and was the joke of the project team. _If Gregg's worried, then we should be worried._ Their mock consternation made it back to me. I learned at that young age to leave it to the experts.


----------



## lionsrule

SEPTEMBER!


----------



## cb7214

Thaedron said:


> Did you mean 2000 local HD markets?


good god no, there isn't even 300 markets, maybe that many local channels but not 2000


----------



## syphix

Thaedron said:


> Did you mean 2000 local HD markets?


No, 2000 local HD _channels_. At about 6+ locals per market, that's about 200 markets.


----------



## Indiana627

Link to Boeing press release: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080320a_nr.html


----------



## LameLefty

davemayo said:


> This whole satellite launch process facinates me, but I am totally ignorant of how it works. Could someone point me to a website that explains in laymen's terms how they are able to park a satellite at a precise location 22,000 miles above Earth?
> 
> Thanks.


Even better: I'll try to explain it in a paragraph or so right here AND provide a link to longer explanation. 

Basically, the higher up something orbits, the slower (relative to the earth's surface) it appears to move. Low orbit satellites like the shuttle and the ISS zip around the earth in around 90 minutes or so from a couple hundred miles up. By contrast, at 22,300-odd miles, the speed of the satellite as it tracks around the Earth's center of mass is exactly the same as the rotational rate of the Earth. So, the trick is to put the satellite into a slightly lower (and faster) orbit, or a slightly higher (and slower) orbit until you get it to the right "slot" and then adjust the orbital velocity up or down precisely to "park" it where you want it in geostationary orbit. It's gets complicated in practice because you can't speed it up or slow it down instantaneously, so you have to precisely model it mathematically and plan the maneuvers so that you get it right with the minimum use of fuel, but basically that's it.

Now here's a link: http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/

And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary

Hope this helps!


----------



## ccr1958

i notice when i use that sat tracking wedsite when i 
look at D10 the elevation & azimuth it lists in the upper
right is a little different from what i use....i am not going
to change anything as i get mid 90's on 103 but wodering
if that is the exact ele. & azi. for my house....


----------



## mchaney

ziltomil said:


> What kind of security do they have to prevent others from hijacking the satellite?


Approximately 60 miles of atmosphere and 22173 miles of space. 

Mike


----------



## skyviewmark1

ccr1958 said:


> i notice when i use that sat tracking wedsite when i
> look at D10 the elevation & azimuth it lists in the upper
> right is a little different from what i use....i am not going
> to change anything as i get mid 90's on 103 but wodering
> if that is the exact ele. & azi. for my house....


MY guess is that the real tracking numbers are just a little more accurate than those little marks on your satellite dish.  I wouldn't touch your dish if it's working.


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> Even better: I'll try to explain it in a paragraph or so right here AND provide a link to longer explanation.
> 
> Basically, the higher up something orbits, the slower (relative to the earth's surface) it appears to move. Low orbit satellites like the shuttle and the ISS zip around the earth in around 90 minutes or so from a couple hundred miles up. By contrast, at 22,300-odd miles, the speed of the satellite as it tracks around the Earth's center of mass is exactly the same as the rotational rate of the Earth. So, the trick is to put the satellite into a slightly lower (and faster) orbit, or a slightly higher (and slower) orbit until you get it to the right "slot" and then adjust the orbital velocity up or down precisely to "park" it where you want it in geostationary orbit. It's gets complicated in practice because you can't speed it up or slow it down instantaneously, so you have to precisely model it mathematically and plan the maneuvers so that you get it right with the minimum use of fuel, but basically that's it.
> 
> Now here's a link: http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/
> 
> And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary
> 
> Hope this helps!


See, it's posts like this that make me want to show my wife that my time on this forum isn't a COMPLETE waste! I'm _learning_ something!!


----------



## VARTV

lionsrule said:


> SEPTEMBER!


A press release stated early fall... twice... Why so long?


----------



## ccr1958

skyviewmark1 said:


> MY guess is that the real tracking numbers are just a little more accurate than those little marks on your satellite dish.  I wouldn't touch your dish if it's working.


no i am not going too...but found that very interesting
that it is so accurate(the tracking website)


----------



## VARTV

VARTV said:


> A press release stated early fall... twice... Why so long?


*DIRECTV Satellite Launch Sets the Stage for Delivery of Up to 150 National HD Channels*

_DIRECTV 11 will Deliver Big Boost to HD Capacity and Expand Industry-leading HD Lineup; With Next Satellite Launch in 2009 DIRECTV will have Capacity for Up to 200 National HD Channels_

*EL SEGUNDO, Calif., March 19, 2008* - A powerful, new DIRECTV satellite, launched successfully today from the Pacific Ocean-based Sea Launch platform, will further boost DIRECTV's HD capacity, enabling the industry's HD leader to deliver up to 150 national HD channels when the satellite goes into service this fall. With the additional capacity, DIRECTV will also expand its delivery of local HD channels to more than 100 markets, representing 84 percent of U.S. TV households.

DIRECTV will launch another satellite in 2009 that will enable the nation's leading satellite TV service to offer consumers up to 200 national HD channels.

DIRECTV 11, a Boeing 702 model satellite, lifted off from the Odyssey Launch Platform aboard a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket at 3:48 p.m. PDT from the equatorial Pacific launch site at 154 degrees West longitude.

After one hour and 55 seconds in flight, the rocket left the spacecraft in a geosynchronous transfer orbit with a high point of 1,323 miles (2,130 km) above the Indian Ocean. The satellite's ultimate geostationary orbit position will be at 22,236 miles (35,786 km) above the earth. Controllers at the ground station in Hartebeesthoek, South Africa have made contact with the satellite and confirmed that all systems are functioning properly.

"Our new DIRECTV 11 satellite will soon join its sister satellite in orbit to form the most robust HD delivery system in the multichannel video industry and will be instrumental in maintaining DIRECTV's position as the undisputed leader in HD for years to come," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development, DIRECTV, Inc.

"The strength of our HD offer is not only about the quality and quantity of our national HD channels," he added. "We are continuing to enhance the DIRECTV HD platform by broadcasting our exclusive, interactive sports packages like NCAA® MEGA MARCH MADNESS™, NASCAR HOTPASS™ and NFL SUNDAY TICKET™ all in HD and adding more HD content to our DIRECTV On Demand VOD platform that will formally launch in the coming weeks."

DIRECTV 11, the tenth owned and operated satellite in the DIRECTV fleet, will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 99.2 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations in early September, providing capacity for up to 50 additional national HD channels.

The DIRECTV 11 satellite's powerful spot beam transponders will also begin delivery of local HD channels to new markets across the U.S., expanding the number of markets where DIRECTV offers local HD broadcast networks to more than 100 by the end of 2008. DIRECTV now offers its customers an industry-leading 92 national HD channels and provides local HD broadcast channels in 77 cities, representing approximately 76 percent of U.S. TV households.


----------



## heaphus

Is there a list of what local markets will be added, when D11 goes live? Specifically, does anyone know if Lexington, KY will be in that number? Thanks.


----------



## garn9173

Well done, D* !


----------



## f300v10

So where will D12 live once launched. As I understand it, the current KA dishes only have KA LNBs for 99 and 103. Will they have 3 sats at one of those slots? One spaceway and two 702s?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Swanni is reporting that the new satellite won't be ready until September?? :eek2:



> The company said the DIRECTV 11 should be operational in September.


----------



## ivoaraujo

[email protected]#[email protected]#
I can't wait that long.
It's because it's a leap year right? Have to wait 6 months instead of 2.


----------



## jefbal99

theratpatrol said:


> Swanni is reporting that the new satellite won't be ready until September?? :eek2:


Prolly a misprint in the PR or a mistake, get off the ledge


----------



## gothamcity

I wonder if they just said September to lower expectations a bit. They are already way ahead of Dish, and with the failed Dish effort, they will only pull further into the lead. They may want to temper expectations, and deliver earlier than their stated date (September) to look even better.


----------



## LameLefty

It's probably a misunderstanding of what's going on. The satellite will be operational WELL before September, but it might take that long to get a lot of the smaller DMA locals uplinked and ready to use the capacity. It might also take that long to get some of the new national HD channels ready to go.


----------



## smiddy

Congratulations to Sea Launch, Boeing, and DirecTV on their new (softly) bouncing baby bird. :goodjob:


----------



## bubbers44

I've been watching the replay on channel 573. Next replay at 10:00.


----------



## tuff bob

theratpatrol said:


> Swanni is reporting that the new satellite won't be ready until September?? :eek2:


I think he's thinking of D10 :lol:


----------



## Fish Man

Carl Spock said:


> Here's a hi-rez version of this picture.


Thanks for the great new destop wallpaper! :up:


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> It's probably a misunderstanding of what's going on. The satellite will be operational WELL before September, but it might take that long to get a lot of the smaller DMA locals uplinked and ready to use the capacity. It might also take that long to get some of the new national HD channels ready to go.


Agree.

Set expectations low. They're currently the HD leader, so put a date in the Press Release that they absolutely 100% can meet. They added a few months to deal with any issues that might arise.

If testing goes well, then deliver a few months early with a major announcement.

The great news is that this puppy is finally in space, and looking just fine.

Also, at the beginning, they may start with re-balancing some stuff, move the legacy, move the DNS ... so there may not be much "new" to start. Gives them some time.


----------



## tcusta00

That was some cool stuff to watch - even my wife (who scoffs when I talk about this stuff) watched with me last night and was in awe...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Agree.
> 
> Set expectations low. They're currently the HD leader, so put a date in the Press Release that they absolutely 100% can meet. They added a few months to deal with any issues that might arise.
> 
> If testing goes well, then deliver a few months early with a major announcement.
> 
> The great news is that this puppy is finally in space, and looking just fine.
> 
> Also, at the beginning, they may start with re-balancing some stuff, move the legacy, move the DNS ... so there may not be much "new" to start. Gives them some time.


This is a very realistic view of the current status.

Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

The more I think about this, that press release is a great strategy.

You're currently the HD leader. Lay in the weeds with no fanfare about D11 until you are a zillion times sure it's perfect.

Then pounce.

You already have more capacity then everyone else. Wait for the competition press releases ... when/if they ever catch up ... Then ... deliver early!

Good strategy. Very good strategy. 

Next is to get D11 operational ... to implement the strategy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

theratpatrol said:


> Swanni is reporting that the new satellite won't be ready until September?? :eek2:


Taken right out of the original press release...nothing new.

Sixto covered things quite well in his summation above.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tcusta00 said:


> That was some cool stuff to watch - even my wife (who scoffs when I talk about this stuff) watched with me last night and was in awe...


same here... i think she's a little more interested in this stuff than she wants to admit


----------



## tcusta00

AirRocker said:


> same here... i think she's a little more interested in this stuff than she wants to admit


We actually had a full-on engaged conversation about something geeky last night - I've never loved my wife more... Thanks DirecTV! :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tcusta00 said:


> We actually had a full-on engaged conversation about something geeky last night - I've never loved my wife more... Thanks DirecTV! :lol:


!rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

My wife actually wanted to *see the launch*.

With her HD Wheel of Fortune, American Idol, and Medium....she has adopted the whole HD thing in a big way. 

In any case....it will be interesting to see how the next 60 days progress with any news on D11's overall health up there.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> My wife actually wanted to *see the launch*.


Same here.

For the first time ever, she watched ... and actually was impressed.


----------



## tkrandall

f300v10 said:


> So where will D12 live once launched. As I understand it, the current KA dishes only have KA LNBs for 99 and 103. Will they have 3 sats at one of those slots? One spaceway and two 702s?


No one answered this. Where (longitude) will D12 be parked? I thought D10, D11 and the two Spaceways had the 99W and 103W bandwidth tied up.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tkrandall said:


> No one answered this. Where (longitude) will D12 be parked? I thought D10, D11 and the two Spaceways had the 99W and 103W bandwidth tied up.


i don't think it's known for fact yet... but last night in the chat... i believe tom speculated 101...


----------



## Button Pusher

tcusta00 said:


> That was some cool stuff to watch - even my wife (who scoffs when I talk about this stuff) watched with me last night and was in awe...


That's a good wife you got there. Mine said it was boring.lol


----------



## Hutchinshouse

:righton: Congratulations DIRECTV! It's good to be the king!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tkrandall said:


> No one answered this. Where (longitude) will D12 be parked? I thought D10, D11 and the two Spaceways had the 99W and 103W bandwidth tied up.


Not sure....but I bet D12 goes into the 101 slot orbit.

Maybe someone else has a firm idea.


----------



## tkrandall

I realize the answer to this question could vary depending on how much energy they decided to use for the manuever, but assuming the transer orbit is a classical minimum energy Hohmann transfer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit

how many days does it take to get from the low Earth orbit last night to the final Geosyncronous position?


----------



## tkrandall

So they can do Ka band with only 2 degrees seperation at 99, 101, and 103?


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> So they can do Ka band with only 2 degrees seperation at 99, 101, and 103?


Yes, but nothing is confirmed.

They do have ka licenses at 101.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> They do have ka licenses at 101.


Do they have them for Earth Stations (ie. customer dishes) ?


----------



## syphix

Would Ka at 101 require a new dish?


----------



## tuff bob

syphix said:


> Would Ka at 101 require a new dish?


no, but possibly a new LNB, we don't know if the slimline was planned to receive Ka from 101.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

tkrandall said:


> No one answered this. Where (longitude) will D12 be parked? I thought D10, D11 and the two Spaceways had the 99W and 103W bandwidth tied up.


We have no idea at this point.

D12 was slated as the backup to D10 and D11

With D10 up successfully, there was now an improved chance that D12 would not be needed for that role.

With D11 appearing to be a full success (note there is still work to be done).
D12 will now change roles and become it's own SAT... and serve it's own purpose.

As of yet, DirecTV hasn't filed the paper work to tell the FCC where they will put D12, and how they plan to operate the unit.

We probably won't know any of that till later this year.


----------



## MIAMI1683

tuff bob said:


> no, but possibly a new LNB, we don't know if the slimline was planned to receive Ka from 101.


A new LNB would be expensive considering they have been putting in Slimline dishes for a while now. Not to mention the sidecar. It' will be interesting to see as it goes.


----------



## MIMOTech

Can someone verify if the center LNB on the current 5 LNB dishes is a Ka/Ku type of LNB. If D12 goes to 101 degrees then it would have to be or we will all would have to change dishes again. Probably answered my own question, but I guess would be nice to know that they were thinking down the line.


----------



## 1948GG

tkrandall said:


> So they can do Ka band with only 2 degrees seperation at 99, 101, and 103?


NO. You're talkiing about two different actual bands, the BSS part of the Ka band (the space to earth direct broadcast part, the part we all receive at our homes, in which the separation is FOUR degrees), and the FSS part of the band, which is different frequencies. It's like trying to compare the Ku band with the Ku/DBS band, in which the Ku/DBS is a SUBSET of the entire Ku-band.

Just referring to it all as 'Ka' is as incorrect as referring to the 12Ghz Ku-band as one 'lump' of frequencies. When people refer to the Ku/DBS band in such a way, they 'confuse' the different actual sub-bands within it. Just as 'bad' as referring to the Ka/BSS (broadcast satellite, the FCC hasn't really designated parts of it as 'DBS' as of yet, simply because the only user of those frequencies so far is DirecTV), as 'MPEG4'; as the Echostar/DISH folks will instantly tell you, they use the ENCODING of Mpeg4 at the Ku/DBS frequencies every day.

So, to specify, the Ka/BSS satellites Spaceway1/2 and now DirecTV10/11, are FOUR degrees apart (99/103), while the DirecTV8 (at 101) utilizes the Ka-FSS (fixed satellite) band for backhauls and such. Two completely different things. So just saying that Ka has 'two degree separation' is totally incorrect.


----------



## Sixto

New TLE:

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.20694505 .00001782 00000-0 10776-2 0 28
2 32729 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077 03

Still guessing that 3279 is D11.

Will post lon/lat/alt when get a chance.


----------



## Draconis

flipptyfloppity said:


> Anyone know when/where I can catch the replay?


Here is a link to the recorded webcast.

http://varicast.variview.net/getContent.aspx?WCID=349a9632-ef36-467c-a6a1-f114a5742152#


----------



## RAD

I sure hope that the PR that D* put out was a cut/paste of the D10 release and they forgot to change September to May. Six months from launch to operational is a loooooong time.


----------



## bubbers44

Again replay is on channel 573 right now and will probably play every two hours today.


----------



## dms1

davemayo said:


> This whole satellite launch process facinates me, but I am totally ignorant of how it works. Could someone point me to a website that explains in laymen's terms how they are able to park a satellite at a precise location 22,000 miles above Earth?
> 
> Thanks.


I think one of the main reasons that people tend to be in awe of the precision that can be achieved in space is that they are used to dealing with terrestrial systems that are subject to factors such as friction and air resistance. These complicating factors are so complex to model that they can almost be considered chaotic. This makes predicting the future behavior of anything on land, or in the air, to any degree of accuracy virtually impossible.

However, in space, at the orbit levels and speed that we are dealing with here, you only really need to consider good old Newtonian mechanics, and then only really in relation to the Earth. There are other factors that come into play, such as the Moon's gravity and the solar wind, but these are so minor that they can be easily corrected for using the satellite's on-board thrusters on an ongoing basis.


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> I sure hope that the PR that D* put out was a cut/paste of the D10 release and they forgot to change September to May. Six months from launch to operational is a loooooong time.


Bunch of guys sitting in a room ...

"So what is the absolute worse case for D11 ... I dunno ... july/august?... come on, if you have lots of problems ... worse case ... I dunno ... september ... when do u think Dish will make some big announcement ... i dunno ... summer? ... when they launch their next satellite ... good ... we say september ... and then when we're sure, 100% sure, that D11 is perfect ... and the day after Dish announces ... we move our schedule up months ... and jump ahead again .... ok, sounds like a plan ..."

All totally hypothetical of course ...


----------



## Tinymon

Too bad the clouds were so low. It sure was beuteeful to that point.


----------



## tkrandall

1948GG said:


> NO. You're talkiing about two different actual bands, the BSS part of the Ka band (the space to earth direct broadcast part, the part we all receive at our homes, in which the separation is FOUR degrees), and the FSS part of the band, which is different frequencies. It's like trying to compare the Ku band with the Ku/DBS band, in which the Ku/DBS is a SUBSET of the entire Ku-band.
> 
> Just referring to it all as 'Ka' is as incorrect as referring to the 12Ghz Ku-band as one 'lump' of frequencies. When people refer to the Ku/DBS band in such a way, they 'confuse' the different actual sub-bands within it. Just as 'bad' as referring to the Ka/BSS (broadcast satellite, the FCC hasn't really designated parts of it as 'DBS' as of yet, simply because the only user of those frequencies so far is DirecTV), as 'MPEG4'; as the Echostar/DISH folks will instantly tell you, they use the ENCODING of Mpeg4 at the Ku/DBS frequencies every day.
> 
> So, to specify, the Ka/BSS satellites Spaceway1/2 and now DirecTV10/11, are FOUR degrees apart (99/103), while the DirecTV8 (at 101) utilizes the Ka-FSS (fixed satellite) band for backhauls and such. Two completely different things. So just saying that Ka has 'two degree separation' is totally incorrect.


I appreciate your response, but I thought I had seen others state on this forum DirecTV had into-home Ka licenses at 99, 101 and 103. You seem to be saying that is not the case, or could not be the case legally.


----------



## dms1

Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.


----------



## Sixto

tkrandall said:


> I appreciate your response, but I thought I had seen others state on this forum DirecTV had into-home Ka licenses at 99, 101 and 103. You seem to be saying that is not the case, or could not be the case legally.


Good research project ... gotta go figure that out ... or Tom may know ...


----------



## dwrats_56

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.


I would say to reduce weight and at 118 km in altitude, it is not needed for protection.


----------



## Button Pusher

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.


I was thinking the same thing.Thanks for asking.


----------



## Cable_X

Question for D11, how's the view from up there?


----------



## Indiana627

My 19 month old daughter watched the launch with me (she likes the shuttle launches that I record on HDNet too). Just as it went through the clouds last night she waved to the TV and said in her cute little voice "bye-bye" with no prompting from me. I kid you not. It was hilarious! My wife and I were rolling on the floor!


----------



## vtfan99

bubbers44 said:


> I've been watching the replay on channel 573. Next replay at 10:00.


I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

vtfan99 said:


> I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually.


alot of people had issues... including myself... but you can set up a manual recording at m.directv.com


----------



## dettxw

vtfan99 said:


> I tried using the online scheduler to record this but kept getting an error message...regardless of the receiver I chose. I was able to record other channels...so it must be an issue with the particular channel or the broadcast. I hope they continue the replays until I can get home and set the recording manually.


I ended up doing a manual record from the mobile scheduler. But then I made it home on time anyway.


----------



## bluemoon737

RAD said:


> I sure hope that the PR that D* put out was a cut/paste of the D10 release and they forgot to change September to May. Six months from launch to operational is a loooooong time.


I noticed that too...hope it's a typo!


----------



## Thaedron

syphix said:


> No, 2000 local HD _channels_. At about 6+ locals per market, that's about 200 markets.


Whoops, I read markets as channels. Guess I hadn't had enough coffee yet.


----------



## Sixto

Just added TLE to the 2nd post (link below).

Will try to keep it somewhat current until the other site's show D11 for real. 

We're still guessing that 32729 is D11 but seems likely.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.


It's done as early as possible once out of the appreciable atmosphere to reduce vehicle mass.


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> The more I think about this, that press release is a great strategy.
> 
> You're currently the HD leader. Lay in the weeds with no fanfare about D11 until you are a zillion times sure it's perfect.
> 
> Then pounce.
> 
> You already have more capacity then everyone else. Wait for the competition press releases ... when/if they ever catch up ... Then ... deliver early!
> 
> Good strategy. Very good strategy.
> 
> Next is to get D11 operational ... to implement the strategy.


Do you have a source for this information, or is it just speculation? I see no advantage to playing games, and not just adding new channels sooner rather than later. It seems odd that it took only 2 months to get D10 operational, and it will take six months to get D11 ready, when D11 had the advantage of being sent up from Sea Launch.


----------



## crzychrisj

woohoo! congrats Directv and SeaLaunch! I'm looking forward to even more HD to immerse myself in!


----------



## flipptyfloppity

MIAMI1683 said:


> A new LNB would be expensive considering they have been putting in Slimline dishes for a while now. Not to mention the sidecar. It' will be interesting to see as it goes.


If they added Ka on a satellite we don't all have a Ka LNB for, they'd likely do so for "narrowcast" items like the foreign language services. Thus not everyone would need the new equipment and also those services are generally expensive enough to cover the cost of installing a new dish.


----------



## harsh

dms1 said:


> I think one of the main reasons that people tend to be in awe of the precision that can be achieved in space is that they are used to dealing with terrestrial systems that are subject to factors such as friction and air resistance.


You're simplifying the situation far too much. Up there you may not have to worry about friction from wind resistance, but you have an even larger impediment: other satellites! There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.

There's a reason that TLE's are so closely watched and carefully calculated.

The other side of the coin is that you must consider that at some point you start having a noticeable time delay.

There's a reason that the people who do space flight are a very superstitious crowd.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Set expectations low. They're currently the HD leader, so put a date in the Press Release that they absolutely 100% can meet. They added a few months to deal with any issues that might arise.


The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.


----------



## MIAMI1683

harsh said:


> The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.


Well it was less then a year ago when we got the capacity. In all though it has been very good. Remember there is still a risk with launching and thiers have been perect in recent thistory!


----------



## 1948GG

tkrandall said:


> I appreciate your response, but I thought I had seen others state on this forum DirecTV had into-home Ka licenses at 99, 101 and 103. You seem to be saying that is not the case, or could not be the case legally.


Those people as simply not being accurate; 'lumping' all of the Ka-Band (10+Ghz wide!) into one 'chunk', simply because they are either confused or lazy to type the proper designation. Again, it's like referring to the Ku/DBS band as simply 'Ku'; I shake my head every time I see it referred to as such, when the Ku/DBS is a SMALL subset of the entire Ku-band (even if talking about space-based transmissions, not even figuring the terrestrial parts of the band!), but people are confused/lazy, and that will never change.

It's kind of like Earl B. here trying (at various points!) to get folks to type out 'DirecTV' rather than 'D*'. I myself never use the 'D*' designation, always type out the full 'DirecTV'. Trying to get everyone else to do so is like changing the direction of a herd, and they arn't beef cattle, but lions. Not Gonna Happen.

The FCC is allowing the companies 'homesteading' the Ka-band to pretty much 'write the rules' as they go along. Far different approach than with the Ku/DBS band in the early 90's. Things might have been different if, as I've pointed out before, some or all of the terrestrial (or satellite for that matter) ideas for utilizing Ka had come to fruition in the recent past years, but fiber squashed most of them. So now, it's more like the 'wild west'. A 'build it and they will come' landscape. What's interesting to me is that the naysayers that, back in the 90's, said that Ku was too prone to rain fade and such, really haven't been beating the drums on the Ka/BSS hardly at all.

Probably because the link-budget for the super-highpower satellites are such that technically, the new sats like DirecTV10/11 are LESS prone to effects than their older Ku/DBS links were 15 years ago (and I've verified such; the problems people bring up here are obviously badly aimed dishes and flaky systems) The electronics, the transmissions, the mechanical bits of the system didn't stand still for those 15 years!


----------



## Sixto

man_rob said:


> Do you have a source for this information, or is it just speculation? I see no advantage to playing games, and not just adding new channels sooner rather than later. It seems odd that it took only 2 months to get D10 operational, and it will take six months to get D11 ready, when D11 had the advantage of being sent up from Sea Launch.


Total speculation ... but sound strategy if true.

The reality of the situation is that the channels will be turned on as soon as is reasonably possible. They won't be delayed because of some press release.

All we're discussing here is the press release, which was issued 20 minutes after they heard D11 say "Hello". They want to be 100% sure before they say anything else.

Since DirecTV is the current leader, everyone will be looking for anything negative, no matter how small.

Saying September removes all risk of missing the date.

Good strategy.

And when it goes "live" in 6 weeks, it's all gravy ... and much fanfare.


----------



## dms1

harsh said:


> You're simplifying the situation far too much. Up there you may not have to worry about friction from wind resistance, but you have an even larger impediment: other satellites! There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.
> 
> There's a reason that TLE's are so closely watched and carefully calculated.
> 
> The other side of the coin is that you must consider that at some point you start having a noticeable time delay.
> 
> There's a reason that the people who do space flight are a very superstitious crowd.


You are right, but everything else up there is also well behaved so it is possible to model a trajectory for your satellite and then use this is decide how to control it. It may not be trivial, but it is possible. Compare this to the situation of trying to model, for example, where a very light glider set free at a high altitude will eventually land. Regardless of your available computing power you are unlikely to get a very accurate answer because the interfering factors (principally air resistance) are verging on chaotic.


----------



## steveken

AirRocker said:


> i know this probably isn't the thread for this... and i know you're going to yell at me tom  ... but you guys should check this out... check out the altitude on AMC-14 and how quickly is declining... http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32709  ...


I know I am a few pages behind, but I thought I would offer my .02 worth on this. You can't go by altitude. The way the shuttle and all satellites work while going up and going around the earth is there is a high point and a low point to its path around the planet. There are always going to be times when the satellite is "falling" and then there are other times when it is "rising" until its where it goes. For an object that is actually circling the planet, there is not an actual stable altitude for it. I think its only stable once it has achieved where it is going to park for operation.


----------



## LameLefty

> There are lots of items up there right now and you have to wiggle through them to get where you're going.


That's not really accurate. 

The trajectory planners do make detailed analysis of their launch and orbital insertion, but it's very, very rare to have to adjust specifically because of the risk of a collision at that altitude. Even at the much lower, much more crowded altitude of the ISS, a "collision avoidance maneuver" is rare. "Slotting" into an already- occupied slot (e.g., 99 deg W) isn't that hard because the two sats are still miles apart. That's not the reason for any "September" timeframe.

The sat will be ready WAY before then. Absent any technical concerns with D11, the content (e.g., all those new locals and a few laggard national HDs) will be the reason for any delay, not slotting the satellite into its parking orbit.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> I know I am a few pages behind, but I thought I would offer my .02 worth on this. You can't go by altitude. The way the shuttle and all satellites work while going up and going around the earth is there is a high point and a low point to its path around the planet. There are always going to be times when the satellite is "falling" and then there are other times when it is "rising" until its where it goes. For an object that is actually circling the planet, there is not an actual stable altitude for it. I think its only stable once it has achieved where it is going to park for operation.


Correct - instantaneous altitude is a meaningless number. All satellite orbits (assuming the on-board thrusters are not firing at the time) are elliptical with the Earth at one focus. A circular orbit is just a special case of this where the altitude is constant. A geosynchronous orbit is in turn a special case of a circular orbit that happens to be at the right height to orbit with a period of one sidereal day. A geostationary orbit is a special case of a geosynchronous orbit that has an inclination of zero.

Anyone who doesn't understand the basics of orbits should just Google Kepler's laws.


----------



## Neural762

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know why the payload fairing is jettisoned so early on in the mission (after first stage separation)? One would think that you would want it in place as long as possible to provide protection.


This is strictly an educated guess, but I believe the fairing is strictly there to provide a proper aerodynamic profile during atmospheric flight, not any significant amount of protection, particularly from space debris that could impact at several thousand km/h. Additionally, since it's an inert object with no way to control it, it would need to be jettisoned fairly early in the flight to ensure it returns to earth quickly and does not become a hazard to anything in orbit.


----------



## raoul5788

harsh said:


> The problem with this theory is that they splattered the landscape with tales of this capacity in September of 2004. The only people they are fooling are the ones that believed that this projected capacity would be available by a year ago at this time.


They set a timetable, which they mostly stuck to. When they didn't, it wasn't their fault. You have berated them about this here and at Satguys. Get over it, why don't you? They are providing an excellent product. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, be quiet!


----------



## msmith

It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.


----------



## dms1

msmith said:


> It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.


In which case it has to be in exactly the same location as the ISS, since the two are docked at the moment.


----------



## Sixto

Updated TLE - 3rd update since launch (in 2nd post) ...

Lon	69.9886° W
Lat	0.0003° N
Alt (km)	30 812.950
Azm	268.9°
Elv	-8.9°
RA	00h 53m 08s
Decl	-7° 44' 39"
Range (km)	37 638.964
RRt (km/s)	-1.310
Vel (km/s)	2.308
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	257.1° (182)
TA	199.3°
Orbit #	1
Mag (illum)	Not visible
Constellation	Cet


----------



## cartrivision

msmith said:


> It looks like 32729 is the shuttle STS-123.


If you are referring to the web site at

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

...right now, 32729 is an invalid tracking number, and all invalid tracking numbers seem to default to STS-123.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

:backtotop 

Does anyone know the earliest date when D11 will be confirmed as "functionally operational" - not to be confused with broadcast operational (when it starts to broadcast channels)???

That date will reflect when we know D11 is operating without problems.


----------



## celticpride

I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!


----------



## LameLefty

Neural762 said:


> This is strictly an educated guess, but I believe the fairing is strictly there to provide a proper aerodynamic profile during atmospheric flight, not any significant amount of protection, particularly from space debris that could impact at several thousand km/h. Additionally, since it's an inert object with no way to control it, it would need to be jettisoned fairly early in the flight to ensure it returns to earth quickly and does not become a hazard to anything in orbit.


See my earlier answer up-thread. It's jettisoned as soon as possible for mass reasons. Given its size and light weight, it would have a high coefficient of drag in orbit and unless it rode all the way to GTO, it would reenter quickly from a low orbit.


----------



## man_rob

I don't know if this has been posted, but Engadget HD is reporting that contact has been made with D11, and it is reporting back that is it healthy. They also say it took 81 days for D10 to start broadcasting to the masses.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/20/directv-11-phones-home-hd-clock-starts-ticking/


----------



## moonman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :backtotop
> 
> Does anyone know the earliest date when D11 will be confirmed as "functionally operational" - not to be confused with broadcast operational (when it starts to broadcast channels)???
> 
> That date will reflect when we know D11 is operating without problems.


Whenever it is that Boeing turns control of it over to Directv
=========
We don't know when Boeing will turn control of it to DirecTV....that is the
"operational" point.


----------



## curt8403

celticpride said:


> I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!


HD lite is a bugaboo. it means nothing. all Sat HD is compressed to allow more signals to be transmitted. Those who gripe about "HD Lite" are in my opinion small minded worms


----------



## Sixto

celticpride said:


> I'm just as excited about this launch as the rest of you! will we be getting the full bitrate hd signal with this sattelite? not trying to be negative,but in the past i've seen post about the signal being ''hd lite'',although in my opinion it looks great!


The signal (bandwidth) is just fine. And now especially fine with the ability to spread HD across both D10 and D11 soon.

The future is rosey ... while my local cable company moves VOOM to SDV to make room for an one HD channel at a time ...


----------



## Sixto

man_rob said:


> I don't know if this has been posted, but Engadget HD is reporting that contact has been made with D11, and it is reporting back that is it healthy. They also say it took 81 days for D10 to start broadcasting to the masses.
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/03/20/directv-11-phones-home-hd-clock-starts-ticking/


I'm betting by 4/30/2008 we will see 99 (c) with a signal on our signal-meter.


----------



## lwilli201

I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is.


----------



## ziltomil

LameLefty said:


> That's not really accurate.
> 
> The trajectory planners do make detailed analysis of their launch and orbital insertion, but it's very, very rare to have to adjust specifically because of the risk of a collision at that altitude. Even at the much lower, much more crowded altitude of the ISS, a "collision avoidance maneuver" is rare. "Slotting" into an already- occupied slot (e.g., 99 deg W) isn't that hard because the two sats are still miles apart. That's not the reason for any "September" timeframe.
> 
> The sat will be ready WAY before then. Absent any technical concerns with D11, the content (e.g., all those new locals and a few laggard national HDs) will be the reason for any delay, not slotting the satellite into its parking orbit.


I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.


----------



## dms1

lwilli201 said:


> I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is.


It's in the sky.


----------



## curt8403

dms1 said:


> It's in the sky.


they are not releasing tracking info for d11 yet as far as I can tell.


----------



## Canis Lupus

Here's the Boeing release again in case it wasn't posted yet:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q1/080320a_nr.html


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272


----------



## tkrandall

ziltomil said:


> I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.


At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm


----------



## Indiana627

lwilli201 said:


> I want some one with tracking data to tell us where D11 is.


Space.


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272


Great info. Thanks.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Given its size and light weight, it would have a high coefficient of drag in orbit and unless it rode all the way to GTO, it would reenter quickly from a low orbit.


Atmospheric drag doesn't apply above about 75 miles. The jettison point is considerably higher than that (~125 miles).


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tkrandall said:


> At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.
> 
> http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm


I was going to ask this.... great info!! thanks!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tkrandall said:


> At geosynchrounous orbit (~22,236 miles above equator, or 26,194 miles above the center of the earth's core - the actual center point of the orbit) 1 degree equates to somehign like 457 miles seperation. So .1 degree would be ~46 miles, .2 degrees ~91 miles.
> 
> http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/GEO_ORBIT/DI146.htm


so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??


----------



## tuff bob

AirRocker said:


> so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??


that page has the orbit circumference at 164,582, so that'd make it 9143 miles. ahhh.

But of course thats the distance around the edge of the orbit


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> not sure if my math is off, but if you figure 20 degrees apart and a complete orbit (360 degrees) is 22,236 miles, then the circumference is (2*22236*pi) or 139,713 miles, and 20 degrees apart is (20/360) * 139,713 or 7762 miles.
> 
> But of course thats the distance around the edge of the orbit
> 
> that page has the orbit circumference at 164,582, so that'd make it 9143 miles. ahhh.


You are using the orbital height and not its radius. The correct answer is ~9143 miles.


----------



## spartanstew

No new information, but HDTV magazine now has the story:

HERE


----------



## willardcpa

AirRocker said:


> so then... if i'm doing my math correctly... the sat at 99 and the sat at 119 are ~ 9140 miles apart??


Welllll, not exactly. They are 9140 miles apart if you measure along the arc of their orbit. But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.


----------



## lwilli201

spartanstew said:


> No new information, but HDTV magazine now has the story:
> 
> HERE


Another reference to September light up. I would think it will not take that long. Is that where Swanni got his info?


----------



## Paul A

Congrats D11!!! Exciting Stuff.

Crazy question... Can one see a satellite using a ground based telescope? If so, anyone have pictures of D10?

Paul


----------



## syphix

All these stories are referencing the press release. Either a typo or strategery. It will NOT take 6 months to get D11 active. If it does, then DirecTV is doing something wrong.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

So what if it takes to September?
So long as nothing is held up because of it...

It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.

So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.

It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.


----------



## bubbers44

As I read the 30 minute coast to second burn the speed was only 10,000 mph so jetisoning the fairings would allow them to fall back into the atmosphere and burn up. It takes about 17,500 mph to stay in orbit. Having 46 miles separation between two satellites .1 degree apart makes a collision virtually impossible. Striking another satellite getting in position would be practically impossible by random maneuvering. Imagine two aircraft 46 miles apart with about a 5,000 ft random altitude hitting each other in a million years. Being 22,236 miles up gives you a lot of latitude for straying off course a few miles or off altitude a tad.


----------



## Indiana627

Earl Bonovich said:


> So what if it takes to September?
> So long as nothing is held up because of it...
> 
> It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.
> 
> So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.
> 
> It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.


Great analogy and point.

They probably were holding back on filling up D10 just in case something went wrong with D11. Hopefully soon they'll know for sure D11 is fine and not have to worry about holding back on D10.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I know everyone is VERY excited at the awesome news and desperately drooling for more, but please keep the thread on topic. Some attempts at humor on topic are ok, but... well let's just say posts have been and will continue to be deleted if they run too far afield...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## doctor j

willardcpa said:


> Welllll, not exactly. They are 9140 miles apart if you measure along the arc of their orbit. But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.


Trying to remember geometry:

c=2r*sin(theta/2)

r=26284
theta=20 degrees or .349 radians

Chord=9125 miles

Doctor j


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

doctor j said:


> Trying to remember geometry:
> 
> c=2r*sin(theta/2)
> 
> r=26284
> theta=20 degrees or .349 radians
> 
> Chord=9125 miles
> 
> Doctor j


You guys are killing me here.


----------



## spartanstew

doctor j said:


> Trying to remember geometry:
> 
> c=2r*sin(theta/2)
> 
> r=26284
> theta=20 degrees or .349 radians
> 
> Chord=9125 miles
> 
> Doctor j


Carry the 1.


----------



## wagman

1948GG said:


> ...the problems people bring up here are obviously badly aimed dishes and flaky systems...


shyeah...obviously...dang!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

willardcpa said:


> you need to do a little more geometry.


that has to do with traingles...right? :lol:



HDTVsportsfan said:


> You guys are killing me here.





spartanstew said:


> Carry the 1.


!rolling


----------



## EricRobins

I don't know if it has been covered in the previous 8 pages, but what are we expecting out of this bird?

From what I understand, we currently have just about every available HD channel. Other than some LILs (which are of no impact to me since all my locals - or at least the ones I care about - are already HD), why should I be eggsited about this bird?


----------



## syphix

Earl Bonovich said:


> So what if it takes to September?
> So long as nothing is held up because of it...
> 
> It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.
> 
> So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.
> 
> It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.


I'm only going off "history" (and only off _my_ short history of timeframes between successful launches and "live" dates), and six months seems rather excessive. I understand your reasoning, though have to question if D10 isn't already somewhat full with HD nationals...without futher compression. Any more expansion on the HD nationals, it's been speculated* (on this forum and others), would almost certainly _require_ D11. And there's a few HD nationals yet to be carried (though a few, mind you, that have yet to even "go live"), plus the migration of legacy MPEG2-HD channels to MPEG4.

*"Speculation" is dangerous territory, I know...


----------



## tcusta00

EricRobins said:


> why should I be eggsited about this bird?


Because it's going to bring us even more egggggciting HD in the future, man!!


----------



## Mr. Bungle

sbl said:


> You'd need the secret code: 12345.


Why, that's the code on my luggage!:lol:


----------



## jacksonm30354

EricRobins said:


> I don't know if it has been covered in the previous 8 pages, but what are we expecting out of this bird?
> 
> From what I understand, we currently have just about every available HD channel. Other than some LILs (which are of no impact to me since all my locals - or at least the ones I care about - are already HD), why should I be eggsited about this bird?


JUst because you have your locals doesn't means there aren't many, many others that do not. So those folks are excited about getting their locals, plus there are HD channels no one on Directv gets yet (Travel HD, WGN HD, etc). Plus there are going to be more channels going HD in the future. It ensures Directv should have the capacity to add those as they come on the HD bandwagon ;-)


----------



## Tom Robertson

1948GG said:


> NO. You're talkiing about two different actual bands, the BSS part of the Ka band (the space to earth direct broadcast part, the part we all receive at our homes, in which the separation is FOUR degrees), and the FSS part of the band, which is different frequencies. It's like trying to compare the Ku band with the Ku/DBS band, in which the Ku/DBS is a SUBSET of the entire Ku-band.
> 
> Just referring to it all as 'Ka' is as incorrect as referring to the 12Ghz Ku-band as one 'lump' of frequencies. When people refer to the Ku/DBS band in such a way, they 'confuse' the different actual sub-bands within it. Just as 'bad' as referring to the Ka/BSS (broadcast satellite, the FCC hasn't really designated parts of it as 'DBS' as of yet, simply because the only user of those frequencies so far is DirecTV), as 'MPEG4'; as the Echostar/DISH folks will instantly tell you, they use the ENCODING of Mpeg4 at the Ku/DBS frequencies every day.
> 
> So, to specify, the Ka/BSS satellites Spaceway1/2 and now DirecTV10/11, are FOUR degrees apart (99/103), while the DirecTV8 (at 101) utilizes the Ka-FSS (fixed satellite) band for backhauls and such. Two completely different things. So just saying that Ka has 'two degree separation' is totally incorrect.


Well... you are better at using the more precise terminology perhaps than I, but you are missing the licensing details.

Hughes was awarded many Ka-DBS (perhaps an incorrect term, but one everyone here will be familiar with) licenses in 1997, all of which included both downlink to the home in two frequency ranges: 18.3-18.8GHz and 19.7-20.2GHz. (The final frequencies were set in stone in 2000.) DIRECTV customers are interested in two of them: 99° and 101°.

In 2003 the FCC granted Hughes Electronics the right to transfer to Hughes Network Systems, PanAmSat's license for 103°. Hughes Electronics owned both Hughes Network and PanAmSat, so the FCC said, sure you own them both, no problem.

When Hughes divested DIRECTV, all three Ka-DBS licenses went to DIRECTV specifically for HD and other advanced services.

Ka-DBS is operated at 2° separation to the home on a less than 1m dish. (When considering separation, dish size is an important factor.)

This all builds up to DIRECTV can send signals to the home at both Ka frequency assignments at all three locations: 99°, 101°, and 103°. Currently, DIRECTV uses 101° for backhauling purposes. (Several reasons for that...) At some point, with LNB swap-outs (and likely several other changes) DIRECTV could very well broadcast to the home from 101°.

My current feeling is that is not D12's role. This is just a feeling, I do not have any confirmations yet.

I have theorized that D12 could be placed at 101° to be a quick spare in space, freeing up any reserves DIRECTV might hold back in the current Ka constellation of S1/S2/D10/D11.

Or DIRECTV might put D12 at 99° or 103° and make some adjustments to the balance of spot/National beams at both locations, given how extremely flexible S1/S2 are. Such adjustments might allow D12 some frequency range to broadcast in immediately as well as serve a backup role.

Until DIRECTV tells me (and then allows me to tell you) or until we all see the FCC filings, we don't really know. DIRECTV might still be working the math in preparing the FCC filing request thinking one thing but when all the numbers are crunched, come up with another solution altogether.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## davemayo

LameLefty said:


> Even better: I'll try to explain it in a paragraph or so right here AND provide a link to longer explanation.
> 
> Basically, the higher up something orbits, the slower (relative to the earth's surface) it appears to move. Low orbit satellites like the shuttle and the ISS zip around the earth in around 90 minutes or so from a couple hundred miles up. By contrast, at 22,300-odd miles, the speed of the satellite as it tracks around the Earth's center of mass is exactly the same as the rotational rate of the Earth. So, the trick is to put the satellite into a slightly lower (and faster) orbit, or a slightly higher (and slower) orbit until you get it to the right "slot" and then adjust the orbital velocity up or down precisely to "park" it where you want it in geostationary orbit. It's gets complicated in practice because you can't speed it up or slow it down instantaneously, so you have to precisely model it mathematically and plan the maneuvers so that you get it right with the minimum use of fuel, but basically that's it.
> 
> Now here's a link: http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/
> 
> And another: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary
> 
> Hope this helps!


Just got around to checking the board and there are a zillion new posts in this thread. :eek2: This helps quite a bit. Thanks.


----------



## wilmot3

can someone tell me what they r useing as a sat name or #to get tle's?


----------



## Sixto

I thought D10 was fairly full from a nationals perspective.

14 national transponders. About 38mbps bandwidth. About 5 HD channels per transponder. That's 70. Unless I have something wrong.

Then assume that not all of the national HD channels need full bandwidth because some don't have full HD then maybe that 70 becomes 80 or so. Current count was at 74 for D10 so seemed like another 5-10 channels was maybe possible.

Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live".

Seemed like the original 150 estimate came from 75 on each bird with the 150 spread across the 28 national transponder. Average 5.4 channels per transponder.


----------



## Sixto

wilmot3 said:


> can someone tell me what they r useing as a sat name or #to get tle's?


sat 32729


----------



## wilmot3

Sixto said:


> sat 32729


so this would be the latest tle then......correct?

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> ...Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live"....


Using D10's spot beams and their assigned transponders to distribute a national feed as it is done on CONUS beams?


----------



## rotohead

doctor j said:


> Trying to remember geometry:
> 
> c=2r*sin(theta/2)
> 
> r=26284
> theta=20 degrees or .349 radians
> 
> Chord=9125 miles
> 
> Doctor j


I ran out of fingers and toes @ 'c=2r...'


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> ...
> Also, seems like they may be using the spotbeams to cover the whole country for some more national HD until D11 is functional. and they're sharing some of the PPV-HD with the Game-Only HD before D11 is "live".
> ...


I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.

They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.

Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## highheater

tcusta00 said:


> Because it's going to bring us even more egggggciting HD in the future, man!!


Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth


----------



## Earl Bonovich

highheater said:


> Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth


Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.

Locals are a VERY important part to the entertainment aspect of TV.

(But I do agree, the fact that they do (have to) carry all those locals, instead of just sharing a single affiliate feed, or some compromise... is a waste of bandwith.)


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

highheater said:


> Hopefully something more than 1000 more locals .... what a waste of bandwidth


waste of bandwidth??? how do you figure?


----------



## curt8403

AirRocker said:


> waste of bandwidth??? how do you figure?


I would not consider the bandwidth for my 4 HD locals a waste

if they are your locals they are not a waste


----------



## Interceptor

wilmot3 said:


> so this would be the latest tle then......correct?
> 
> OBJECT A
> 1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
> 2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14


While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.
> 
> They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.
> 
> Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom.

Just been trying to figure out the D10 HD math for a while now.

5 HD per transponder seems optimal so either D10 was doing more then 5 per transponder (which might be fine) or there were more transponders.

A signal strength test in NY shows D10 transponders 17 and 22 alive and bright (94 & 96). Thought they might be spotbeams doing nationals in some way. Didn't consider the possibility of spares.

Current math had D10 with 74 nationals, soon the 4 West DNS's, and 23 Game-only RSN's.

Been curious how to fit all that into 14 transponders with 5 each.

There was a guy with some gizmo that posted a transponder map last November which is where I got the unconfirmed/unofficial transponder map from in my HD thread.

Figured that D11 would take the strain off D10, so was wondering where the concept of filling D10 with more was headed (or how).


----------



## Carl Spock

From years ago, I have a pass to Boeing's media archive. I went there today and found the following picture of the Sea Launch vehicles at their home port. Here is a hi-rez version.


----------



## DirecTV-Sub

That might be the upper stage - it separated from D11 and is also in orbit at the moment.


----------



## curt8403

Interceptor said:


> While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:
> 
> OBJECT B
> 1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
> 2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


perhaps the second object is the Block DM which would possibly be following???


----------



## skyviewmark1

From what I have seen anything with the word "Object" in it usually refers to the rocket booster or just parts from a launch.. Yes these may be parts of the DirecTV-11 launch platform.. But may not be anywhere near the actual satellite. Just speculation on my part though.. I don't know anything about rocket science.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.
> 
> Locals are a VERY important part to the entertainment aspect of TV.
> 
> (But I do agree, the fact that they do (have to) carry all those locals, instead of just sharing a single affiliate feed, or some compromise... is a waste of bandwith.)


All well and good during Prime-time, national news, and soaps time; but that still leaves a goodly amount of the day for local news (the #1 money maker for affiliates and best avenue for commerical placement), local late nite, and local weekend programming. All of which will mean someone will need to have bandwidth available for those timeperiods.

Don't forget 2 things: 1) some local stations do a censorship edit before broadcasting Prime-time,  and 2) local ad sales in Prime-time.

So, the bandwidth is needed at various times of the day for locally originated programming (or locally timed syndicated programming) and ad sales. Can a system be devised whereby the other times, when the single (or at least timezone specific) "affiliate feed" as you refer to it can be used to some form of benefit? Or will the bandwidth required for the locally originated programming be really unusable anyway?

Ad sales is the killer. You have to broadcast them realtime in parallel with the "shared single affiliate" feed; you can't rely upon DVRs at each location yet to insert them if prestaged.

So in the 20 minutes between local ads of Prime-time, what would you do with that bandwidth? Partially download preset DoD for the DVRs might work. Guide information freeing up the "extra tuner" for time periods?

While there are times when it seems that bandwidth is totally wasted, the reality appears to be the chunks that truly are wasteful duplication really aren't useful bandwidth that I can tell.

And local breaking news and alert crawls on the screen... Election nites are always going to require full local bandwidth... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## longrider

Interceptor said:


> While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:
> 
> OBJECT B
> 1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
> 2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


This is just a guess, but could Object B be the Block-DM upper stage? I dont know how quickly it deorbits itself but until that time I would think they would stay fairly close


----------



## bigmac94

curt8403 said:


> I would not consider the bandwidth for my 4 HD locals a waste
> 
> if they are your locals they are not a waste


There you go..What he Said..


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Atmospheric drag doesn't apply above about 75 miles. The jettison point is considerably higher than that (~125 miles).


Um, no. You're quite wrong about that. If you don't believe me, call up some friends at JSC and they will correct you.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Um, no. You're quite wrong about that. If you don't believe me, call up some friends at JSC and they will correct you.


Man, DON'T LEAVE US HANGING! What is the correct information?


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom and Earl, local stations rely on inserting their own ads 24/7, not just in prime time. They make the most money selling ads out of prime time. When I would buy advertising for my stereo store from one of my local networks, I'd get a package with a few ads in an extended prime time block and a whole bunch the rest of the day. The station would average the price to make the cost reasonable to me and give them fill. I couldn't afford to buy true prime time ads but I'd get a few in a flight because I'd have many in syndicated afternoon talk shows, not provided by the network. In a $2,000 package, maybe only $500 would be prime ads. $1,500 would run during other times.

DirecTV has to dedicate specific channels to each local station. It's the only way that the system works.


----------



## LameLefty

ziltomil said:


> I believe SPACEWAY 1 and DIRECTV 10 are between 45 and 46 miles apart.


I did the math back when D10 was in its temporary parking slot and that was the number sticking in my head, but I haven't checked again.


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> I am fairly sure that D10/D11/D12 can't use spotbeam transponders to perform Nations. I don't think they get enough coverage that way.
> 
> They might be using some of D10s spare transponders as Nationals right now.
> 
> Originally, S1 and S2 were planned to be able to broadcast Nationals as well as spotbeams using their phased arrays but my guess is the actual power consumption was too great so that plan didn't work.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Not to mention that according to D10/11/12's frequency scheme, the tremendous technical problem of trying to simultaneously uplink the same national feeds on up to 20 channels from 5 ground stations. In addition to any spot beam uplink channels being transmitted from the Los Angeles Broadcast Center.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Carl Spock said:


> Tom and Earl, local stations rely on inserting their own ads 24/7, not just in prime time. They make the most money selling ads out of prime time. When I would buy advertising for my stereo store from one of my local networks, I'd get a package with a few ads in an extended prime time block and a whole bunch the rest of the day. The station would average the price to make the cost reasonable to me and give them fill. I couldn't afford to buy true prime time ads but I'd get a few in a flight because I'd have many in syndicated afternoon talk shows, not provided by the network. In a $2,000 package, maybe only $500 would be prime ads. $1,500 would run during other times.
> 
> DirecTV has to dedicate specific channels to each local station. It's the only way that the system works.


Sorry, my analysis was only the "wasted bandwidth" times when in theory a "shared single affiliate" feed would do. The rest of the time, I can't see getting around separate bandwidth usage for the locals as outside prime-time and soaps-time, everything is local in one sense or another. So I was thinking of the times you refer to, but didn't explicitly call them out.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Man, DON'T LEAVE US HANGING! What is the correct information?


Everything under several hundred miles is still affected by the (very) tenuous dregs of the upper atmosphere. The effect of this thin gas is to slow objects down and eventually de-orbit them (witness all the little pieces of recently "shot down" USA 193 (*) - quite a few of them are still in orbit and being tracked by NORAD and a few of them have burned up every week since. If you have a NORAD Space-Track account, you can see the weekly changes and see which chunks have splashed in.

Part of the problem with drag estimates, however, is that it depends to a great degree of the density of the atmosphere - while it's considered a vacuum for most intents and purposes, most of low-Earth orbit (LEO) is not empty - there's enough gas molecules up there to affect objects appreciably over a period of months, weeks and occasionally days. The density of the upper atmosphere depends on average atmospheric temperature and therefore solar activity. While the solar cycles are well-understood, the daily, weekly and sometimes monthly activity varies a great deal from the mean and thus causes the very high upper atmosphere to contract or expand.

The other factor that impacts drag is the density of the object in question. The smaller and denser objects are, the lower the coefficient of drag; the larger and less dense, the higher the coefficient of drag. So fairing panels, being both large in surface area and light, would deorbit quickly even if they'd made it to an elliptical orbit, provided the perigee is less than about 300 miles (perhaps higher than that but not by an order of magnitude - something a thousand miles up will stay there a LONG time).

ISS requires regular reboosts by either Progress supply vessels, visiting shuttles, or soon, visiting European ATV vehicles (the first of which is in orbit now and will rendezvous in a few weeks or so) or future Japanese HTV vehicles. The Russian segment of the station also has reboost capability for the complex but for various reasons, it's not the optimal solution for reboost as the station has grown in size and changed configuration.

Oh and Harsh, if drag isn't an issue, do tell us why Skylab isn't still in orbit today? 

(*) USA 193 is a very interesting object and the recent DoD/NSA decision to destroy it in orbit has a lot of questions surrounding it. Topic for another forum on another thread no doubt.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Everything under several hundred miles is still affected by the (very) tenuous dregs of the upper atmosphere. The effect of this thin gas is to slow objects down and eventually de-orbit them (witness all the little pieces of recently "shot down" USA 193 (*) - quite a few of them are still in orbit and being tracked by NORAD and a few of them have burned up every week since. If you have a NORAD Space-Track account, you can see the weekly changes and see which chunks have splashed in.
> 
> Part of the problem with drag estimates, however, is that it depends to a great degree of the density of the atmosphere - while it's considered a vacuum for most intents and purposes, most of low-Earth orbit (LEO) is not empty - there's enough gas molecules up there to affect objects appreciably over a period of months, weeks and occasionally days. The density of the upper atmosphere depends on average atmospheric temperature and therefore solar activity. While the solar cycles are well-understood, the daily, weekly and sometimes monthly activity varies a great deal from the mean and thus causes the very high upper atmosphere to contract or expand.
> ...


 (I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])

Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> (I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])
> 
> Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


and what about parking a satellite at a Legrange point?


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> (I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])
> 
> Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Tom - that's a very good question and one I don't know off-hand. I suspect that it's pretty much at whatever altitude the atmosphere STOPS having a measurable effect (that is, an effect which shows up over the course of a few weeks or months), so probably somewhere between around 250 - 300 miles and 1,000 mile, but I'm totally going by intuition here. My friends at JSC would probably have a better answer and if I get a chance I'll see what they say.

Interestingly, solar pressure (as they call it) does affect comsats in GEO a good deal. Their large, highly-reflective solar arrays create tiny bits of thrust which must be offset by attitude control systems and periodic tiny reboost burns. This effect was first noted in the 60's and is the basis for the concept of solar sails in SF (and perhaps someday in practice).


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> and what about parking a satellite at a Legrange point?


Um, what about it?  Solar pressure would have a fairly substantial effect over time, at least for anything big and reflective (which a spacecraft would have to be, for thermal control). So even something "parked" would have to have a small propulsion system.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not to those that don't have their locals yet in HD.


AMEN!! Some of us are still waiting on SD-LIL....

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> Um, what about it?  Solar pressure would have a fairly substantial effect over time, at least for anything big and reflective (which a spacecraft would have to be, for thermal control). So even something "parked" would have to have a small propulsion system.


but at least you would have no gravity issue to speak of. just solar pressure, which is much smaller that Gravity issues


----------



## bridge

LameLefty said:


> My friends at JSC would probably have a better answer and if I get a chance I'll see what they say.
> 
> Interestingly, solar pressure (as they call it) does affect comsats in GEO a good deal. Their large, highly-reflective solar arrays create tiny bits of thrust which must be offset by attitude control systems and periodic tiny reboost burns. This effect was first noted in the 60's and is the basis for the concept of solar sails in SF (and perhaps someday in practice).


I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> but at least you would have no gravity issue to speak of. just solar pressure, which is much smaller that Gravity issues


No, actually. Gravity is why a LaGrange point exists at all in a three-body problem. In this case, the three bodies are the Earth, Sun and moon. Unfortunately for L-points, these are all rotating bodies and in the case of the moon and Earth, have definite mascons (mass concentrations) that affect the gravitational field - it's not a point-source like you have to assume to do a 3-body analysis. So the L-points are really semi-stable, though some are more stable than others. Here's a decent explanation that's semi-understandable: http://www.physics.montana.edu/faculty/cornish/lagrange.html


----------



## LameLefty

bridge said:


> I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?


A more precise answer to Tom's question about the point at which orbital drag is less important than solar pressure.

Though, I think given the variability in drag due to atmospheric density and coefficient of drag of different objects would seem to make this a hard question to give a very precise answer. Hmmm . . .


----------



## turbrodude

Block-DM plummet velocity to earth is nominal.


----------



## Sixto

As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads. 

Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).

Good stuff.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bridge said:


> I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?


Bridge, welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

As LameLefty said, at approximately what altitude does atmospheric drag reduce to where solar pressures are the greater force?

Given LameLefty's great description of atmospheric drag, I completely understand this is not going to be a precise point for all moving bodies, I'm very happy with rough, average numbers.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> ... I completely understand this is not going to be a precise point for all moving bodies, I'm very happy with rough, average numbers.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Tom, back when was a real spacecraft engineer, we called that a "SWAG" - Scientific Wild-A$$ Guess" - :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

LameLefty said:


> Tom, back when was a real spacecraft engineer, we called that a "SWAG" - Scientific Wild-A$$ Guess" - :lol:


!rolling


----------



## Daggett

LameLefty said:


> The other factor that impacts drag is the density of the object in question. The smaller and denser objects are, the lower the coefficient of drag; the larger and less dense, the higher the coefficient of drag. So fairing panels, being both large in surface area and light, would deorbit quickly even if they'd made it to an elliptical orbit, provided the perigee is less than about 300 miles (perhaps higher than that but not by an order of magnitude - something a thousand miles up will stay there a LONG time).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instantaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.



Tom Robertson said:


> As LameLefty said, at approximately what altitude does atmospheric drag reduce to where solar pressures are the greater force?


I don't think there is a straight answer for altitude, because our magnetosphere deflects particles differently at different latitudes, ie, a polar orbiter will probably experience the most effects, equatorial, the least, depending on altitude.


----------



## LameLefty

Daggett said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.


That's strictly true and it's how you calculate drag for, say, an airplane wing, when generally the magnitude of the force is all you care about usually. A better term is "ballistic coefficient" which takes into account both actual surface area and density. But in shorthand, a lot of folks just talk about "drag" when they mean "ballistic". Kind of like NASA pubic affairs types always talk about "speed" when they mean "velocity." "Speed" is technically a scalar, while "velocity" is a vector.


----------



## bridge

Tom Robertson said:


> (I hate trimming a very well written post to shorten amount of overall space taken for my reply... [That is a compliment!])
> 
> Since this was a tremendously well written post, it has conjured up a corollary question. At approximately what point does solar "wind" have a greater affect upon objects in space than the atmosphere?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Please note that I work for the Black Sheep of the JSC community, Medical Sciences Division (code SD), so I can't offer a long diatribe on positioning. I've sat in on briefings where orbital burn maneuvers were discussed and increased solar wind was never brought up as a cause (that's not to say it never has). It's usually due to a decaying orbit caused by normal fluctuations in LEO and/or known or unknown space debris in LEO...which is becoming more of a concern.

I can tell you that conditions (there is weather up there) in the upper atmosphere have an impact on the positioning of the ISS and solar disturbances can have a impact if its an extremely large disturbance. However, in my expereince solar wind conditions are tracked more for crew health and safety as it is protective against galactic radiation and the station as well as shuttle tracking will be adjusted to provide more (albeit limited) protection. For this reason crews and equipment are actually safer during increased solar activity.


----------



## rotohead

Sixto said:


> As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads.
> 
> Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).
> 
> Good stuff.


I feel lucky to just listen in. Thanks to all for your willingness to take the time to explain what you do at work...after you come home from work. Very grateful.
Chuck


----------



## harsh

willardcpa said:


> But since that is along a curve, if you want "straight line" distance you need to do a little more geometry.


Trigonometry makes the world go around.

chord length = 2r sin (angle/2)


----------



## Blurayfan

Interceptor said:


> While we are still not 100% sure the catalog number 32729 is indeed DirecTV-11, it looks increasingly probable. Although, Space-Track has captured another object, which is 32730, launched on the same date. The tle for that one indicates that object is so close to 32729, it appears to be something in common with DirecTV-11. 32730's latest elset is:
> 
> OBJECT B
> 1 32730U *08013B* 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
> 2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


This is the Block DM.



n2yo.com said:


> The International designator is an internationally agreed-upon naming convention for satellites. The designator contains the launch year, the launch number of the year and the part of the launch, i.e., "A" indicates payload, "*B" the rocket booster*, or second payload, etc.


----------



## curt8403

with all the talk, but so little actually about d11, I think I have post separation anxiety  :hurah:


----------



## rotomike

Daggett said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think density (or mass) of an object has any effect of the instantaneous drag coefficient or total drag force, assuming the objects have the same surface area and type. According to newton of course, a lighter object will slow down (deorbit) faster given the same force than a heavy object, but if two objects with the same drag parameters are going the same speed then they both experience the same drag force, regardless of their respective masses.
> 
> I don't think there is a straight answer for altitude, because our magnetosphere deflects particles differently at different latitudes, ie, a polar orbiter will probably experience the most effects, equatorial, the least, depending on altitude.


Welcome to the forum


----------



## ActiveHDdave

Yippy!! Here we go again with false alarms. Got to love that.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Holy guacamole! This thread is way too mathematical for me! I'm glad to have friends like you guys who understand this stuff!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Holy guacamole! This thread is way too mathematical for me! I'm glad to have friends like you guys who understand this stuff!


They had me at E=Mc2 

I'm more interested in 2 basic things:

1) When D11 is confirmed as a healthy bird
2) When the first content from D11 is sent down to us earthlings

Everything beyond that is Mr. Science stuff.... :eek2: :lol:


----------



## audiomaster

satcomranger said:


> Just don't push the red button


What red butto.... Oops! Screen says "Control now moved to Echostar" What could that mean??:thats:


----------



## mganga

and here i thought this here forum was just about teevee, and now y'all got me thinkin' all 'bout vectors and the space/time continuum and stuff!

so, just to clarify...the solar wind will actually improve my HD signal?


----------



## pbg

bridge said:


> I work at Johnson Space Center (JSC). What would you guys like to know?


Great - now you ask. After reviewing my NCAA bracket this PM, its evident I could have used a little assistance triangulating my college hoops picks yesterday :lol:

Just kidding, this thread is fascinating to read. I'm blown away at the level of knowledge of so many of the participants.


----------



## smiddy

So, this thread has grown so much. Does that mean that D11 has sent us some HD stuff yet?


----------



## carl6

mganga said:


> so, just to clarify...the solar wind will actually improve my HD signal?


It depends entirely on which direction the (solar) wind is blowing


----------



## azarby

smiddy said:


> So, this thread has grown so much. Does that mean that D11 has sent us some HD stuff yet?


In your dreams.:new_smili

Bob


----------



## MIAMI1683

Sixto said:


> As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads.
> 
> Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).
> 
> Good stuff.


You got that right Sixto. After I read this thread I realize I have alot more to learn. Thanks again to everyone, and Lefty it's good to rea this stuff again.

D-


----------



## smiddy

azarby said:


> In your dreams.:new_smili
> 
> Bob


Well, ok, mine are in vivid color and high definition, how about yours?

I saw September was the expected airing date, but I am hoping that is a missprint/typo from last years D10 airing and that D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).


----------



## rotomike

September is just playing it safe. They will add channels all summer and then by September they can say we said what we were going to do and then some.

Most of these added channels are spotbeam locals which they test quite a bit and try to make sure they are right so each local will take time. They wont throw up 10 cities in April if thats what you guys hope. They had trouble with spotbeams on D10 and they will test theses out good before they go public. Look at the roll out of Locals from D-10 and see how slow they were. Im sticking with my guess from months ago which was on or around June 10th before we see any decent amount of channels(more then 4 national or 4 cities) 

Mike


----------



## Sing1gniS

smiddy said:


> D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).


My birthday also.

+1 for May 3rd date.


----------



## twaller

OK guys, my birthday is May 1. What about that?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does


----------



## njblackberry

I think May 31 is the date.
My birthday 

And Stuart has the correct answer!


----------



## Button Pusher

Sixto said:


> As I mentioned last night while dreary eyed and waiting for D11 to call home ... you can learn alot in these threads ... some of the smartest and nicest folks around ... wonder if one could qualify for a DBSTalk rocket science diploma after studying these threads.
> 
> Glad to "virtually" know all you guys (and maybe gals!).
> 
> Good stuff.





rotohead said:


> I feel lucky to just listen in. Thanks to all for your willingness to take the time to explain what you do at work...after you come home from work. Very grateful.
> Chuck


I agree! Thanks to everyone willing to teach us some Rocket Science.


----------



## Hdhead

Do we know if the orbit has changed since the end of the block DM burn indicating thruster use on D11?


----------



## Draconis

Stuart Sweet said:


> One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Too true.


----------



## harsh

MIAMI1683 said:


> Well it was less then a year ago when we got the capacity.


The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.


----------



## MIAMI1683

harsh said:


> The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.


Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.


----------



## azarby

smiddy said:


> Well, ok, mine are in vivid color and high definition, how about yours?
> 
> I saw September was the expected airing date, but I am hoping that is a missprint/typo from last years D10 airing and that D11 will be airing on or about May 3, 2008 (that's my Birthday and DirecTV would love to give me a Birthday Prezy :lol: ).


Mine are in vivid color and also in High Def 3D.

Bob


----------



## Mindcrime

MIAMI1683 said:


> Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.


Im sure when I say this, I speak for a whole lot of D* customers. Get me my locals in HD. Im satisfied (for now) with the amount of national channels. Getting my locals in HD through D* is #1 on my priority list.


----------



## Sixto

MIAMI1683 said:


> Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.


Totally agree.

Sitting around griping about a "promise" a long time ago, that got affected by a delay caused by a satellite that destructed at lift-off isn't exactly very productive.

D11 got up as quickly as was humanly possible following the unfortunate failed 2007 SeaLaunch launch followed by several month inspection and repair.

Now we move forward knowing that D11 is safely in orbit ... and about to be thoroughly tested ...


----------



## tcusta00

Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science. 

Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> The promised capacity won't be here until they turn up D11.


And, you're worried about this why? D11 is in space, healthy, on track, and will be turned on soon. Meanwhile, they'll continue to add channels on D10. The grass really is greener on_ this_ side of the fence.

At least DirecTV didn't get this crew to run their program.








Dish Network's Satellite Team


----------



## swans

Mindcrime said:


> Im sure when I say this, I speak for a whole lot of D* customers. Get me my locals in HD. Im satisfied (for now) with the amount of national channels. Getting my locals in HD through D* is #1 on my priority list.


I've been trying to make that point for awhile. As DirecTV is a corporation that is profit driven. Our desires do not count.


----------



## lwilli201

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Latest numbers from Space-Track.

I got this far, now I have to figure out what to do with them. :lol: :lol: 

I hope that 32729 is the correct number.


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> OBJECT A
> 1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
> 2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14
> 
> Latest numbers from Space-Track.
> 
> I got this far, now I have to figure out what to do with them. :lol: :lol:
> 
> I hope that 32729 is the correct number.


same TLE as yesterday at 08080.579 ... middle of the day yesterday ... did post the location info from that TLE somewhere above (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1509553&postcount=272) ... will keep trying to also keep post #2 updated with the latest TLE ...


----------



## davemayo

tcusta00 said:


> Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science.
> 
> Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:


I was wondering how long it would take until this joke surfaced...still got me to chuckle.  :lol:


----------



## carl6

swans said:


> I've been trying to make that point for awhile. As DirecTV is a corporation that is profit driven. Our desires do not count.


Collectively, our desires do count. If DirecTV does not attract and retain customers, then the profit will fall.

Carl


----------



## smiddy

Stuart Sweet said:


> One thing you can count on is, when it does light up, someone here will find it before anyone else does


There is no doubt about that, this community is solid when it comes to finding out things dealing with DirecTV...too kewl if you ask me!


----------



## smiddy

tcusta00 said:


> Guys, calm down, this isn't rocket science.
> 
> Oh wait.... never mind.... carry on. :lol:


How about some soup? :lol: I love your avatar man!


----------



## smiddy

man_rob said:


> And, you're worried about this why? D11 is in space, healthy, on track, and will be turned on soon. Meanwhile, they'll continue to add channels on D10. The grass really is greener on_ this_ side of the fence.
> 
> At least DirecTV didn't get this crew to run their program.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dish Network's Satellite Team


Where is Dr. Smith?


----------



## tcusta00

smiddy said:


> How about some soup? :lol: I love your avatar man!


Thanks. Now no HD for you! Come back, one year!

NEEXXXT!


----------



## smiddy

tcusta00 said:


> Thanks. Now no HD for you! Come back, one year!
> 
> NEEXXXT!


Well, I guess no sense in whining about it sir, I'll wait one year, one year only. Then I bring guns and ammo. 

Seriously though, I can't wait for this puppy to air some things out. How long does everyone think it will take for 99(c) to come up on our signal tests on our receivers? This CE, the next one, or perhaps the next one? I didn't pay any attention when D10 came on line, what heppened then?


----------



## man_rob

smiddy said:


> Where is Dr. Smith?


Quiet you clankering bucket of bolts!










Oh dear!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

:backtotop please


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Seriously though, I can't wait for this puppy to air some things out. How long does everyone think it will take for 99(c) to come up on our signal tests on our receivers? This CE, the next one, or perhaps the next one? I didn't pay any attention when D10 came on line, what happened then?


smiddy, I say 4/30/2008. Some say September.


----------



## LameLefty

> Where is Dr. Smith?


I was about to comment that he was a stowaway and so not part of the crew (much like our own little stowaway who pops in to Directv threads periodically . . .  )

But in light of Earl's comment I won't. 

* * * *

Now, has anyone managed to find more high-rez stills of the launch besides the one right as the Zenit is igniting on the launch platform?


----------



## mhayes70

Sixto said:


> smiddy, I say 4/30/2008. Some say September.


Also, didn't the guy from Directv at the dinner after the launch. I can't remember the guys name. But, he said 2 months before the satellite goes live. So, I agree with Sixto that sometime the end of April or beginning of May.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Now, has anyone managed to find more high-rez stills of the launch besides the one right as the Zenit is igniting on the launch platform?


Only two I've seen ...

http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-tall.jpg

http://www.sea-launch.com/mission_directv-11/gallery/img_scr/dtv11-wide.jpg

Both beautiful!


----------



## JeffBowser

Well, I can't wait until we have real satellite info to discuss - this hand wringing over May versus September is tedious.


----------



## turbrodude

Are they going to have to upgrade the software in our receivers for D11? All I see is 99(s) but no 99(c) in the signal strength meters.


----------



## man_rob

JeffBowser said:


> Well, I can't wait until we have real satellite info to discuss - this hand wringing over May versus September is tedious.


After the AMC-14 debacle, I'm just happy our satellite up there, and everything is moving according to plan.


----------



## sat2631

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/tle-new.txt

DIRECTV 11 
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 0.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 2.22983954 14
BLOCK DM-SL R/B 
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 0.0608 1.7870 7325440 177.9562 88.4059 2.23796881 06


----------



## JeffBowser

Yeah, no kidding, same here.

Funny - I checked my transponders labels last night for the first time since D10 went live, looking to see if there was any update to the firmware to reflect D11.



man_rob said:


> After the AMC-14 debacle, I'm just happy our satellite up there, and everything is moving according to plan.


----------



## Sixto

32729 it is!!!!

http://www.n2yo.com/latest_launches.php


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

*Tracking is now available on n2yo for Directv 11!*

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


----------



## harsh

carl6 said:


> If DirecTV does not attract and retain customers, then the profit will fall.


That's the beauty of the two year commitment. As the "extras" (DVR, HD, protection plan, must-have premiums) make up more and more of the bill, the revenue stays stable even as the programming might drop off.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> 32729 it is!!!!


You gotta love that latitude number.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> You gotta love that latitude number.


Yep, but eccentricity is still too high compared to most of the GSO birds by an order of magnitude (small though it is).


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Yep, but eccentricity is still too high compared to most of the GSO birds by an order of magnitude (small though it is).


Circularizing the orbit is doubtless much easier than turning the orbit. The only difficulty is that you have to steer through existing satellites as your elliptical orbit passes through the Clarke belt altitude as your orbit is on the same plane.

Perhaps it is just six of one, half dozen of another.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Circularizing the orbit is doubtless much easier than turning the orbit. The only difficulty is that you have to steer through existing satellites as your elliptical orbit passes through the Clarke belt altitude as your orbit is on the same plane.


Ever heard the phrase, "Don't teach your grandpa to suck eggs?" 

Circularizing is no easier or harder than changing inclination of the orbit, just generally a lot more fuel-efficient. Each case is simply a matter of expending propellant. And you are vastly over-estimating how difficult is to to "steer through" existing satellites. They are dozens or more miles apart in most cases.


----------



## gpg

I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.


----------



## dms1

gpg said:


> I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.


D11 is still in an elliptical geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). This means that it has an apogee (high point) at the right height, but the perigee (low point) is too low. It also has an inclination of zero degrees which is exactly where it needs to be. AMC-14 on the other hand is not in a GTO (its apogee is too low) and it has a massive inclination (51 degrees I think) which would need a lot of fuel to correct.


----------



## gpg

Thanks dms1. I didn't realize that D11 is still in GTO. Does anybody know when they're likely to move it to GSO?


----------



## Tom Robertson

dms1 said:


> gpg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. Would someone please explain why an altitude of approximately 11,000 miles for DirecTV 11 is okay, but about 16,000 for AMC-14 is not? I thought GSO required about 22,300 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> D11 is still in an elliptical geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO). This means that it has an apogee (high point) at the right height, but the perigee (low point) is too low. It also has an inclination of zero degrees which is exactly where it needs to be. AMC-14 on the other hand is not in a GTO (its apogee is too low) and it has a massive inclination (51 degrees I think) which would need a lot of fuel to correct.
Click to expand...

What dms1 said. Thanks. 

In transfer orbit, the point is to reach an orbit near the final orbit. AMC-14's transfer orbit attempt failed way too low. AMC-14 ranges from 450 miles to 16,000 miles. D11 ranges all the way up to 22,000 miles.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## moonman

You can trak it now.....
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729


----------



## Sixto

moonman said:


> You can trak it now.....
> http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729


yep ... posted above ... btw, that's the TLE from yesterday mid-day ... awaiting new TLE ...


----------



## RVD26

Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?

I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

RVD26 said:


> Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?
> 
> I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.


Plain and simple: More National HD Channels.... And More areas will get their locals in HD.


----------



## ctaranto

Slightly off topic.. The Odyssey is heading back to port..

http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/

-Craig


----------



## Sixto

RVD26 said:


> Can someone please explain to me what this will mean for the average viewer?
> 
> I've been hearing about this satellite launch for a while now, but I still don't know how it will directly affect me.


some info in post-2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1508286&postcount=2) ... do plan to make more user friendly over the weekend ...


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> yep ... posted above ... btw, that's the TLE from yesterday mid-day ... awaiting new TLE ...


It says that the TLE was last retrieved at March 21 2008 17:00 UTC, which is a little less than a an hour prior to your post time.


----------



## bdowell

MIAMI1683 said:


> Well do you have enough HD now. I do. Yes I could use ESPNEWS, but I am almost positive that when it begins D* will have it. The key thing for me is I have more HD then ever, 3 HRxx's and can fill up them if i wanted. What more do you want. Also a new sat. also brings new costs. So next year if the rates get raised again then we can all say. " We wanted more " and we got it.


No.

Military channel in HD please.

Comedy Central in HD please.

More HBO and Showtime channels in HD please.

There's a few other channels I'd love to see in HD too, so the answer is no. Bring on more HD!


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> It says that the TLE was last retrieved at March 21 2008 17:00 UTC, which is a little less than a an hour prior to your post time.


Yep, that's when they got the TLE.

The TLE itself has a time stamp. In this case 08080.57956083. Julian Date ... 3/20 .57 into the day ... TLE sometimes updated a few times a day ... other times takes days ... the only thing that counts is the time stamp in the TLE.

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html


----------



## tuff bob

is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W


----------



## SParker

There is no such thing as to much HD!


----------



## Button Pusher

ctaranto said:


> Slightly off topic.. The Odyssey is heading back to port..
> 
> http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/
> 
> -Craig


I wonder how many people have to ride the SLOW boat home?


----------



## dms1

gpg said:


> I didn't realize that D11 is still in GTO.


The giveaway is that you can see the satellite moving on the live tracking. With its zero degree inclination (latitude) it would appear stationary if the orbit had been circularized.


----------



## tuff bob

Button Pusher said:


> I wonder how many people have to ride the SLOW boat home?


hopefully DirecTV got them a honking big dish so they're catching the basketball


----------



## RVD26

Earl Bonovich said:


> Plain and simple: More National HD Channels.... And More areas will get their locals in HD.





Sixto said:


> some info in post-2 (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1508286&postcount=2) ... do plan to make more user friendly over the weekend ...


OK, thanks

I also keep hearing about the 99 transponder
Right now I get no signal at all from 99
Will I have any problems getting these new HD channels?


----------



## Sixto

All sites take a TLE from a certain exact point in time:

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html​
And then they extrapolate forward, until the next TLE is posted ... could be hours or days from TLE to TLE posting ...

These web-sites such as
http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729​are not showing the exact satellite location.

It's an estimate based on the last known TLE.

The experts can explain further but that's what I learned from months of following D10.


----------



## kitchj

I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.


----------



## Sixto

RVD26 said:
 

> I also keep hearing about the 99 transponder
> Right now I get no signal at all from 99
> Will I have any problems getting these new HD channels?


If you get a good signal from 101 and 103 (c) then you should be fine.

99 (s) today is only spot beams from Spaceway and there's a chance you're not in a spot.

The key is probably your signal on 103 (c). If 101 (center) and 103 (c) are perfect then you're probably in great shape. Obviously need the AT9 or AU9 dish.


----------



## RVD26

Sixto said:


> If you get a good signal from 101 and 103 (c) then you should be fine.
> 
> 99 (s) today is only spot beams from Spaceway and there's a chance you're not in a spot.
> 
> The key is probably your signal on 103 (c). If 101 (center) and 103 (c) are perfect then you're probably in great shape. Obviously need the AT9 or AU9 dish.


I'm getting 95% from 101
However, I don't even have a 103(c) that comes up under satellite strength, only 103(a) and 103(b)
I don't get anything for 103(a), but I do get 96% for 103(b)
What does this mean?


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W


No, because the satellite's orbit isn't currently synchronized to that of the Earth. Therefore, the longitude at apogee will change with each orbit.


----------



## Sixto

RVD26 said:


> I'm getting 95% from 101
> However, I don't even have a 103(c) that comes up under satellite strength, only 103(a) and 103(b)
> I don't get anything for 103(a), but I do get 96% for 103(b)
> What does this mean?


What receiver? What dish?

The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.


----------



## tuff bob

dms1 said:


> No, because the satellite's orbit isn't currently synchronized to that of the Earth. Therefore, the longitude at apogee will change with each orbit.


that's my point. if we run the current TLE we'll get various longitudes at apogee, then we might be able to guess which orbit they might attempt to get D11 into GSO , and since we know the period of orbit, we might be able to estimate when.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.


(c) is a CE release. I think 103 (c) is the same as 103 (b) on national releases. It's been a while since I had a NR


----------



## RVD26

Sixto said:


> What receiver? What dish?
> 
> The (c) is only on the HR2x I think. Show (a) and (b) on others.


H20 Receiver and Slimline dish


----------



## Sixto

Just looked ... 

103 (c) is only on the HR2x boxes. (c) is for CONUS (all of U.S.). (s) is the spot beams.

I thought "(c)" and "(s)" were added to the HR2x NR a while ago. Certainly on the HR21.

The H20/H21 still has the old (a) & (b) format.

99 (b) is Spotbeam.

103 (a) is Spotbeam.

103 (b) is CONUS (D10).


----------



## Sixto

RVD26 said:


> H20 Receiver and Slimline dish


Then the key for you is 101 Transponder 1 and 103 (b) Transponder 1.

If both high (90's) then you'll be fine for D11.

You should see at least transponders 1-14 on 103 (b) and maybe 17 and 22. If all high and 101 high then D11 should be fine.

D11 will be 99 (a) on the H20 I would guess. 99 (c) on the HR2x.


----------



## n3ntj

kitchj said:


> I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.


Are they not showing it anymore on ch 573? It was on replay for at least a few days after the launch.


----------



## tuff bob

kitchj said:


> I'm bummed I missed the launch. They should put it on DOD or something.


----------



## kocuba

Not sure if this was added yet. But I just saw it on their website.


----------



## RVD26

Sixto said:


> Then the key for you is 101 Transponder 1 and 103 (b) Transponder 1.
> 
> If both high (90's) then you'll be fine for D11.
> 
> You should see at least transponders 1-14 on 103 (b) and maybe 17 and 22. If all high and 101 high then D11 should be fine.
> 
> D11 will be 99 (a) on the H20 I would guess. 99 (c) on the HR2x.


Great
Thanks for all your help


----------



## Carl Spock

kocuba, that's been posted a couple of times so far. Go back to post#2 in this thread for a hi-rez verson.

It's still a purdy picture.


----------



## kocuba

Carl Spock said:


> kocuba, that's been posted a couple of times so far. Go back to post#2 in this thread for a hi-rez verson.
> 
> It's still a purdy picture.


Carl, Sorry about that! But when I saw that post originally it was not included. Looks like he added that and some other info just recently.

Again My apologize.


----------



## Carl Spock

No apology necessary, kocuba.


----------



## ziltomil

tuff bob said:


> is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W


According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET


----------



## tuff bob

ziltomil said:


> According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET


Nice - how did you figure that out?


----------



## JeffBowser

I'm certain it involved slide-rules, pocket protectors, a package of Twinkies, several Cokes, and Google......

:lol: I jest - I only wish I could do that math.



tuff bob said:


> Nice - how did you figure that out?


----------



## lwilli201

ziltomil said:


> According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET


Sounds good to me  :grin:


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> Nice - how did you figure that out?


I haven't run the TLE through an orbit simulator, but I guess that's when it will be at apogee or perigee (whichever one is "correct") - a burn at that time will affect the altitude 180 degrees around the orbit. So if the apogee is correct but perigee is too low, you burn at apogee to raise the perigee. Vice versa if it's the other way around.

On the other hand, as we discussed during D10's meanderings around the heavens last summer, there could be any number of small maneuvers in between the publicly-released TLEs (*) which we would be missing. So the best we can do is make educated guesses about what's going on right now.

(*) Speaking of which, I wonder why we went SOOOO long between TLE updates on D10. As I recall, it seems to me that we were getting test channels from 102.8 that weekend in September before we even realized D10 had made the final orbital maneuvers.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> I haven't run the TLE through an orbit simulator, but I guess that's when it will be at apogee or perigee (whichever one is "correct") - a burn at that time will affect the altitude 180 degrees around the orbit. So if the apogee is correct but perigee is too low, you burn at apogee to raise the perigee. Vice versa if it's the other way around.


I don't think that is it

go here:





and move forward to about 4m55.

It seems like you burn your rockets close to the apogee (when its at the right height for GSO) to get it into the new orbit ...


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> It seems like you burn your rockets close to the apogee (when its at the right height for GSO) to get it into the new orbit ...


Correct. Somewhat simplistically, what you are doing is speeding the satellite up so that it doesn't fall towards the earth as much as it progresses around its orbit, which effectively raises the perigee. Get it just right and the orbit will become circular.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Correct. Somewhat simplistically, what you are doing is speeding the satellite up so that it doesn't fall towards the earth as much as it progresses around its orbit, which effectively raises the perigee. Get it just right and the orbit will become circular.


Um, you just said the same thing I did, while agreeing with a guy who was contradicting me. :lol:

When you change an orbit, the net effects are seen 180 degrees around the orbit from the completion of the burn. If you could make instantaneous velocity changes (you cannot - net velocity change is acceleration x time), you would raise or lower perigee most efficiently by burning at apogee. Since velocity changes are never instantaneously, you use an iterative computational tool to model burns in small pieces - remember, every time you burn fuel you are accelerating. But acceleration itself changes because mass is going down over time as you burn the fuel.


----------



## cartrivision

Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Um, you just said the same thing I did, while agreeing with a guy who was contradicting me. :lol


it is rocket science guys. I guess I don't think of it as a process of increasing the perigee, but transitioning from a elipitical orbit to a circular orbit by accelerating at the GSO height.


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> it is rocket science guys. I guess I don't think of it as a process of increasing the perigee, but transitioning from a elipitical orbit to a circular orbit by accelerating at the GSO height.


The problem with that statement (without clarification) is, unless the apogee of the elliptical orbit _is also_ GSO altitude, all you'll do is modify the orbit, not necessarily circularize it at the appropriate altitude. I'm not sure if that's very clearly written, I'm sorry. I'm hungry and waiting for pizza at the moment.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.


If the TLE is accurate, that means the orbit has an apogee greater than GSO-altitude.


----------



## rotomike

It went up and its going around and it will finally rest. 1+1=2 that will make some of you feel better after reading some heavy duty rocket science.:lol: 

Mike


----------



## Daggett

I would imagine it will take several burns to circularize the orbit as I believe it has a very, very small main engine. To raise the perigee you have to burn prograde (with your orbit) at apogee to increase your velocity and thus raise you perigee. I believe they will leave it in a slightly less than GSO orbit until it is in the right longitude and then fully circularize, and use the XIPS to fine tune.

For those of you that are interested in orbital mechanics, I suggest you check out a simulator called Orbiter (google it, first result). I have been playing with that sim for years and it taught me a lot about how space travel really works. I must warn you that it has a fair learning curve though, an understanding of simple mechanics helps.



> Interestingly, right now as observed from earth, D11 is slowly traveling "backwards" (east to west), as it is usually traveling west to east relative to the earth.


Yeah, because it's in such an eccentric orbit, it's ground track will appear to loop on a ground map, at apogee it will appear to move west from the surface, at perigee it will appear to move very quickly east (faster than LEO satellites).



> If the TLE is accurate, that means the orbit has an apogee greater than GSO-altitude.


From what I've observed when I recreated this mission in Orbiter, with an apogee of 35790 km altitude you do indeed start moving west with respect to the surface, even though your altitude is where it should be. I think it's because your orbital velocity is rather low at that point and the earth is rotating faster at that instant than your orbital velocity.


----------



## cartrivision

Daggett said:


> From what I've observed when I recreated this mission in Orbiter, with an apogee of 35790 km altitude you do indeed start moving west with respect to the surface, even though your altitude is where it should be. I think it's because your orbital velocity is rather low at that point and the earth is rotating faster at that instant than your orbital velocity.


According to the tracker at http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729, right now it's only at 35300km (and still rising) while it is going "backwards".


----------



## dms1

Daggett said:


> I would imagine it will take several burns to circularize the orbit as I believe it has a very, very small main engine. To raise the perigee you have to burn prograde (with your orbit) at apogee to increase your velocity and thus raise you perigee. I believe they will leave it in a slightly less than GSO orbit until it is in the right longitude and then fully circularize, and use the XIPS to fine tune.


According to the Sea Launch site the target orbital apogee for the GTO was 36482 km. Therefore, it looks like they are actually going for slightly above GSO for positioning and then dropping it down.


----------



## Paul A

JeffBowser said:


> I'm certain it involved slide-rules, pocket protectors, a package of Twinkies, several Cokes, and Google......


Twinkies Consumption: Nominal


----------



## Daggett

cartrivision said:


> According to the tracker at right now it's only at 35300km (and still rising) while it is going "backwards".


Close enough. 



> According to the Sea Launch site the target orbital apogee for the GTO was 36482 km. Therefore, it looks like they are actually going for slightly above GSO for positioning and then dropping it down.


Yeah, that's true. You could go either way, I'm not sure what make one better than the other.


----------



## njblackberry

Paul A said:


> Twinkies Consumption: Nominal


Russian translation please?


----------



## lwilli201

njblackberry said:


> Russian translation please?


More Vodka.


----------



## njblackberry

At 22,310 miles and it is still going...


----------



## LameLefty

On thing you need to remember when you visualize an orbit (especially one that is fairly eccentric - e.g., more elliptical) is that the plane of the orbit, while equatorial, is can still be considered "fixed" in space, at least relative to the Earth's surface.

Think about it this way: imagine such an orbit with an apogee directly over the desired "slot". The perigee will be 180 degrees around the planet, wherever that is. However, at this point the orbit is NOT geostationary and not even (probably) geosynchronous (e.g., it does not have a period of 23h56m04s). So this means that as the Earth rotates beneath this "fixed" path for the sat, the apparent ground track will vary: the points of apogee and perigee as visualized against the Earth's surface will be different for each orbit. Depending on the specifics of the exact orbital path, at any given time the apparent ground track will move around, sometimes quite a bit. Anyone remember the ground tracks I and others posted concerning D10's wanderings?

Anyway, hope this helps a bit.


----------



## JeffBowser

:lol: I love that word now, especially with the Rusky female accent.



Paul A said:


> Twinkies Consumption: Nominal


----------



## LameLefty

JeffBowser said:


> :lol: I love that word now, especially with the Rusky female accent.


Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was _very_ sexy. :grin:

(Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was _very_ sexy. :grin:
> 
> (Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol


Now, that is WAAAAAYYY off topic!! 

:backtotop (what was it anyway??)


----------



## cartrivision

njblackberry said:


> At 22,310 miles and it is still going...


It peaked out at a little bit above 22,600 miles before it started going downhill again.


----------



## wilmot3

what is the best program to use to insert tle's into to figure the orbit?


----------



## JeffBowser

Dang, I have a new hero !




LameLefty said:


> Back in law school I had a girlfriend who had a BA, MA and most of a Ph.D. in Russian. When she was feeling naughty she affected a Russian accent . . . it was _very_ sexy. :grin:
> 
> (Too many Cold War spy movies when I was growing up I guess :lol


----------



## Blurayfan

DirecTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Updated: March 22 2008 00:00 UTC or March 21 2008 8:00PM EDT


----------



## Sixto

DVDKingdom said:


> DirecTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A *08080.57956083* .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
> 2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14
> 
> Updated: March 22 2008 00:00 UTC or March 21 2008 8:00PM EDT


That's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.

The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...

http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html


----------



## Blurayfan

Sixto said:


> That's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.
> 
> The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...
> 
> http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html


Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.

Two Line Element Set (TLE):

1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14

Last time retrieved: March 22 2008 01:00 UTC


----------



## Sixto

DVDKingdom said:


> Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
> This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.


Yep, they refresh every few hours or less but keep retrieving the same TLE until it actually changes.


----------



## donshan

Sixto said:


> That's the same TLE as keeps getting posted all day.
> 
> The actual time stamp is in the TLE ... it's from yesterday 08080.57956083 ... julian date ... no new TLE yet today ...
> 
> http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html


Hi, to the orbital experts here again. As the amateur astronomer learning about orbits from you, from please let me help avoid the confusion about dates that occurred during the D10 TLE analyses. The term "Julian date" has been used by astronomers to number days for centuries. However "Julian day numbers"change at 12:00(noon) UT, whereas the day number used in the TLE changes days at midnight . Let's avoid confusion by not using the term Julian days in relation to TLE day numbers.

And now back to the excitement of watching D11!

Don


----------



## HoTat2

Sixto said:


> Yep, that's when they got the TLE.
> 
> The TLE itself has a time stamp. In this case 08080.57956083. Julian Date ... 3/20 .57 into the day ... TLE sometimes updated a few times a day ... other times takes days ... the only thing that counts is the time stamp in the TLE.
> 
> http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html





DVDKingdom said:


> Just discovered this after comparing the TLEs posted earlier.
> This was taken from N2Yo they apparently just refreshed their TLE details an hour ago with the data already known to those here. Notice below the page was just refreshed but the data hasn't changed.
> 
> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08080.57956083 .00077795 00000-0 32405-1 0 30
> 2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954 14
> 
> Last time retrieved: March 22 2008 01:00 UTC


Actually, I don't really even bother looking at the time-stamp listed in the TLE. But instead first look at the last entry in line 1 ("30") which is the "element set number" that denotes the sequence number for successive satellite TLEs. Therefore the next new TLE set for D11 should read as "31" otherwise I ignore it.


----------



## raw121

HoTat2 said:


> Actually, I don't really even bother looking at the time-stamp listed in the TLE. But instead first look at the last entry in line 1 ("30") which is the "element set number" that denotes the sequence number for successive satellite TLEs. Therefore the next new TLE set for D11 should read as "31" otherwise I ignore it.


If I read the tle format page correctly the next one will be "4X", with X being a checksum. Still a very good tip.


----------



## Sixto

donshan said:


> Let's avoid confusion by not using the term Julian days in relation to TLE day numbers.


You're correct.

The exact description is actually:

Element Set Epoch

The first two digits ('04') indicate the year. Add 1900 for years >= 57, and 2000 for all others.
The remainder of the field ('236.56031392') is the day of the year.
I usually use "julian date" because that's what most people understand.


----------



## Sixto

Wonder if this is in preparation for D11:

"On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification of the SPACEWAY 2 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the SPACEWAY 2 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.115º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink))."


----------



## Sander

Sixto said:


> *Possible plans for DirecTV-11:*
> 
> Balancing of HD between D10 and D11
> Move the 9 legacy MPEG2 HD to MPEG4
> 74 - Universal HD
> 78 - HDNet Movies
> 79 - HDNet
> 206/73 - ESPN HD
> 209/72 - ESPN2 HD
> 245/75 - TNT HD
> 281/76 - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater)
> 501/70/509 - HBO East HD
> 537/71/543 - Showtime East HD
> 
> Add additional HBO HD channels (per the previous HBO announcement)
> All of the new premium sports packages will be MPEG4 (ex: Sunday Ticket, ...)
> East and West DNS all to MPEG4 (West already announced)
> 99 - PPV HD (MPEG2) eventually shut down
> A few may need to wait for D11 (or may be added to D10 when D11 is safely in orbit)
> 290 - Disney Channel HD
> 292 - Toon Disney HD
> 297 - Boomerang HD
> 307 - ESPNEWS HD (http://www.espnmediazone.com/press_releases/2007_10_oct/20071015_ESPNEWSHDtoLaunchinMarch2008.htm)
> 311 - ABC Family
> 
> Others that may be available (Travel Channel HD, more movie HD premiums, ...)
> Lots more HD LIL (at least 100 HD LIL by year-end 2008 - 84% of U.S.)


How about 356 MSNBC? Love to see them compete against CNN in HD.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Wonder if this is in preparation for D11:
> 
> "On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification of the SPACEWAY 2 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the SPACEWAY 2 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.115º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink))."


Almost certainly. Good find. :up:

I've been getting my (Nashville) locals from Spaceway 2 on transponder 2. I ought to check my signal strength to see if if's changed in the last few days from the usual of 98 or so.

I'll check after I finish watching "Apollo 13" on DVD for the 18th time.  It'll be CE time then anyway.


----------



## Paul A

When do they roll out the solar panels?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Almost certainly. Good find. :up:
> 
> I've been getting my (Nashville) locals from Spaceway 2 on transponder 2. I ought to check my signal strength to see if if's changed in the last few days from the usual of 98 or so.
> 
> I'll check after I finish watching "Apollo 13" on DVD for the 18th time.  It'll be CE time then anyway.


Found the D11 info ...

Date Filed: 10/10/2007 14:21:39:79600

"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Found the D11 info ...
> 
> Date Filed: 10/10/2007 14:21:39:79600
> 
> "DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."


Good find #2 for tonight. :goodjob: I did check my signal strength tonight and it's actually up to 99 on tp 2 for 99(s). That's a new one on me - I've never, ever seen it so high. That little nudge to Spaceway 2 worked to my advantage. :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

raw121 said:


> If I read the tle format page correctly the next one will be "4X", with X being a checksum. Still a very good tip.


I really don't know about "the" particular TLE format page you are referring to raw121. But I do feel that I correctly read "a" format page which describes the TLE nomenclature here;

http://www.castor2.ca/03_Astronomy/03_TLE/index.html

And as you can see, it links the last group of numbers in line 1 to a page which defines it as the "Element Set Number" here;

http://www.castor2.ca/03_Astronomy/03_TLE/Elset_Num.html

Which would be "30" for this latest TLE release regarding D11.

This site list the checksum as a final digit in line 2. Which in this case, should have followed the number "14" (the "orbit number at epoch") for D11 here.

However, they are apparently not listed for some reason in this set of TLEs published by celestrak.com.

Unless of course, this web-site's tutorial is incorrect.


----------



## raw121

HoTat2 said:


> I really don't know about "the" particular TLE format page you are referring to raw121. But I do feel that I correctly read "a" format page which describes the TLE nomenclature here;
> 
> http://www.castor2.ca/03_Astronomy/03_TLE/index.html
> 
> And as you can see, it links the last group of numbers in line 1 to a page which defines it as the "Element Set Number" here;
> 
> http://www.castor2.ca/03_Astronomy/03_TLE/Elset_Num.html
> 
> Which would be "30" for this latest TLE release regarding D11.
> 
> This site list the checksum as a final digit in line 2. Which in this case, should have followed the number "14" (the "orbit number at epoch") for D11 here.
> 
> However, they are apparently not listed for some reason in this set of TLEs published by celestrak.com.
> 
> Unless of course, this web-site's tutorial is incorrect.


There is nothing wrong with the sites tutorial. The element number in the tle for D11 is 3 and the checksum for line 1 is 0. On the page you cite, the element number is 393 and the checksum for line 1 is 4. This is why the 393 is in one color and the 4 is a different color each with its own link.

EDIT: "The" particular TLE format page I am referring to is the one you quoted in the post I originally responded to http://www.space-track.org/tle_format.html.


----------



## HoTat2

raw121 said:


> There is nothing wrong with the sites tutorial. The element number in the tle for D11 is 3 and the checksum for line 1 is 0. On the page you cite, the element number is 393 and the checksum for line 1 is 4. This is why the 393 is in one color and the 4 is a different color each with its own link.


OK thanks;

My bad. I thought the site stated that a checksum was only in line 2. And expected for there to be a spacing in between the checksum and the final number on line 2 as well to aviod confusion. Understand it now, though I guess I should have really known better since there hardly could have been 30 TLEs submitted for D11 this quickly.


----------



## rotomike

How many channels can the Spaceway Sats put out in HD? This D11 can do like 75 national and 75 Local. Those Spaceway birds must put out a-lot less channels. If so, why?

Mike

EDIT: I meant 75 local markets


----------



## lwilli201

rotomike said:


> How many channels can the Spaceway Sats put out in HD? This D11 can do like 75 national and 75 Local. Those Spaceway birds must put out a-lot less channels. If so, why?
> 
> Mike


First, they are designed different. They were originally designed for broadband communications. After they were built, from what I understand, they were modified for use by Directv for direct to home tv. They are only spot beam and do not have the capacity of the later Boeing 702 sats built especially for Directv.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPACEWAY-2


----------



## Sixto

rotomike said:



> How many channels can the Spaceway Sats put out in HD? This D11 can do like 75 national and 75 Local. Those Spaceway birds must put out a-lot less channels. If so, why?


D11 is more like 75-100 national (14 national transponders) and hundreds of locals (49 spots) ... (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=869688&postcount=5).

The Spaceways are very different. See Tom's post (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=869687&postcount=4). Hundreds of locals.


----------



## HIPAR

With the FCC insisting that a DBS system that transmits one HDTV from a market must transmit every HDTV signal in that market, where is all the bandwidth coming from? There will be over 1700 DTV stations on the air, 150-200 national channels, umpteen PPV, sports packages and who knows what else. Can the FCC mandate be achieved?

--- CHAS


----------



## harsh

HIPAR said:


> Can the FCC mandate be achieved?


This "mandate" didn't come to pass, so it doesn't really matter now.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> The Spaceways are very different. See Tom's post (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=869687&postcount=4). Hundreds of nationals.


You imply that the Spaceways can offer national HD channels. This is not the case. Spaceway CONUS coverage was tested and determined to be unsatisfactory.

While D* style HD channels (one non-HD HD channel for every few true HD channels) can be stacked six or seven deep, most will hopefully be limited to five channels per transponder.


----------



## harsh

rotomike said:


> How many channels can the Spaceway Sats put out in HD? This D11 can do like 75 national and 75 Local.


75 national HD channels and 500 HD LIL. The Spaceways combined make up 33% of the LIL capacity (500 channels) and offer no national capacity.


----------



## rotomike

harsh said:


> 75 national HD channels and 500 HD LIL. The Spaceways combined make up 33% of the LIL capacity (500 channels) and offer no national capacity.


I meant 75 local markets not local HD

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> While *D* style HD channels (one non-HD HD channel for every few true HD channels)* can be stacked six or seven deep, most will hopefully be limited to five channels per transponder.


If there was ever any doubt that you are merely trolling, Harsh, you've effectively removed it.


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> If there was ever any doubt that you are merely trolling, Harsh, you've effectively removed it.


You mean you actually had some doubt?


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> This "mandate" didn't come to pass, so it doesn't really matter now.


if I recall correctly, and I may be wrong, the mandate to carry locals is still in effect, but the timetable has been greatly extended by close to 7 years. this will give D*, and E* time to have all they need in place. The burden in this case is on the local channels which must get a signal to the local broadcast location.


----------



## Drew2k

curt8403 said:


> if I recall correctly, and I may be wrong, the mandate to carry locals is still in effect, but the timetable has been greatly extended by close to 7 years. this will give D*, and E* time to have all they need in place. The burden in this case is on the local channels which must get a signal to the local broadcast location.


And there are other threads to discuss that topic.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Wow, I took the advice of someone in this thread (sorry, I forget who) and looked up the "D10 Tech Thread" - Amazing info and especially what didn't make sense to me then now makes a lot of sense. Not a "rocket scientist" now by any means, but this retired engineer has learned a lot. I have to recommend it to others and I have to thank LameLefty for his contributions and certainly enhancing my understanding!
Link is here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91383&highlight=D10+Tech+Thread
And kudos to Sixto for starting that thread and keeping it going


----------



## RUBBLE

Main Engine Is At Nominal Thrust...propulsion System Performance Is Nominal...flight Is Nominal...main Engine Pressure Is Nominal...good Stuff!


----------



## MrDad0330

Has D11 been identified as D11 in the sat tracking sites or does it still just have a catalog number. And when is LameLefty going to show us those kewl pictures from space showing our new sat in the cosmos? 
All this is so educational and fun....!!!! Thanks to you all for the great posts!


----------



## Sixto

MrDad0330 said:


> Has D11 been identified as D11 in the sat tracking sites or does it still just have a catalog number. And when is LameLefty going to show us those kewl pictures from space showing our new sat in the cosmos?
> All this is so educational and fun....!!!! Thanks to you all for the great posts!


Yep. Confirmed as 32729. No new TLE since Thursday mid-day ...


----------



## BobV

I sure hope that the signal is stronger then the D10 !!!:sure:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

BobV said:


> I sure hope that the signal is stronger then the D10 !!!:sure:


D10 has been solid as a rock with levels in the upper 80's up to 100% for various transponders here.

If you don't get at least 80's, you might think about getting your dish re-aligned...

D11 will be at 99, and should be close to the same strength levels.


----------



## doctor j

When I was using www.n2yo.com tracking the Directv10 insertion into GSO the satellite left a pink tracking "trail". Now with Directv11 I do not have it. Can't find any settings to change this. Is that feature no longer active? What can I do to get the trail back??

Doctor j


----------



## DirecTV-Sub

harsh said:


> While D* style HD channels (one non-HD HD channel for every few true HD channels) can be stacked six or seven deep, most will hopefully be limited to five channels per transponder.


You crack me up. Creative bashing at it's best.
:lol:


----------



## pdawg17

hdtvfan0001 said:


> D10 has been solid as a rock with levels in the upper 80's up to 100% for various transponders here.
> 
> If you don't get at least 80's, you might think about getting your dish re-aligned...
> 
> D11 will be at 99, and should be close to the same strength levels.


Although I agree about the signal strengths being good (high 80s to 100 for me), I am a bit disappointed in the effect of rain, etc on the D10 sat...I had never experienced rain fade here in the Bay Area until I tried to watch something from the D10 sat during a heavy rain storm...it does take heavy rain to create a problem for me but in the past, even heavy rain did not create problems from the other sats...


----------



## P Smith

Now you know what's the problem with Ka frequencies.


----------



## Tom Robertson

pdawg17 said:


> Although I agree about the signal strengths being good (high 80s to 100 for me), I am a bit disappointed in the effect of rain, etc on the D10 sat...I had never experienced rain fade here in the Bay Area until I tried to watch something from the D10 sat during a heavy rain storm...it does take heavy rain to create a problem for me but in the past, even heavy rain did not create problems from the other sats...





P Smith said:


> Now you know what's the problem with Ka frequencies.


And to a lesser degree the Ku frequencies.  C-band is almost totally unaffected by rain.

A very well aligned dish should have better rain fade characteristics than any of the earlier dishes, principally because of the better tools with which to do the alignment. Pdawg17, perhaps your dish isn't aligned as well as it should be?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> And to a lesser degree the Ku frequencies.  C-band is almost totally unaffected by rain.
> 
> A very well aligned dish should have better rain fade characteristics than any of the earlier dishes, principally because of the better tools with which to do the alignment. Pdawg17, perhaps your dish isn't aligned as well as it should be?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


BTW, briefly, on one of those, "for some reason I never thought to find out or ask" issues. On a somewhat related subject here to C, Ka, Ku band rain fade, and proper dish alignment. While I think I may know, anyway, why is there no need for a declination offset for the small DBS dishes to see the geosynchronous satellite arc as it is for the larger C band ones?


----------



## rotomike

HoTat2 said:


> BTW, briefly, on one of those, "for some reason I never thought to find out or ask" issues. On a somewhat related subject here to C, Ka, Ku band rain fade, and proper dish alignment. While I think I may know, anyway, why is there no need for a declination offset for the small DBS dishes to see the geosynchronous satellite arc as it is for the larger C band ones?


small DTV dishes only point to one satellite so no need to tilt it . C-band big dishes like the old days(10' dish) also dont have a tilt because the whole dish moves at an arc. All new multi-satellite dishes now have to be scewd (tilted) or however you want to call it to match your location with the geo orbit.

I hope that answers your question.

mike


----------



## rotomike

Tom Robertson said:


> And to a lesser degree the Ku frequencies.  C-band is almost totally unaffected by rain.
> 
> A very well aligned dish should have better rain fade characteristics than any of the earlier dishes, principally because of the better tools with which to do the alignment. Pdawg17, perhaps your dish isn't aligned as well as it should be?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That is totally true and when I install a slimline I take my time pointing and always get mid to upper 90's on every transponder. 80's to me would mean im not pointing quite right. I have never experienced rain faid here at all and we get tons of snow (180 inches this year) and i have never had to wipe my dish and never have lost it. This dish is awesome!!!

Mike


----------



## saryon

I had one night with wet pack snow on the dish killing all my transponders across the board (101/110 too) but by the following afternoon some sun hit it and melted enough off that things have been OK since. Course, everyone's milage may vary.


----------



## HoTat2

rotomike said:


> small DTV dishes only point to one satellite so no need to tilt it . C-band big dishes like the old days(10' dish) also dont have a tilt because the whole dish moves at an arc. All new multi-satellite dishes now have to be scewd (tilted) or however you want to call it to match your location with the geo orbit.
> 
> I hope that answers your question.
> 
> mike


Thank you mike;

But no, unfortunately that does not answer my question. As this is not the kind of "tilt" I was referring to. I am aware of the need for this kind of "tilt" or "skew" around the axis normal to the vertex or center focus point of a multi-satellite elliptical dish.

However, I meant why is there no need for the form of tilt illustrated here for instance, http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/decchartp.html called the "declination offset" adjustment away from the north-south polar axis of a dishes' polar mount commonly seen on C band dishes for the smaller DBS dishes?


----------



## lwilli201

HoTat2 said:


> Thank you mike;
> 
> But no, unfortunately that does not answer my question. As this is not the kind of "tilt" I was referring to. I am aware of the need for this kind of "tilt" or "skew" around the axis normal to the vertex or center focus point of a multi-satellite elliptical dish.
> 
> However, I meant why is there no need for the form of tilt illustrated here for instance, http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/decchartp.html called the "declination offset" adjustment away from the north-south polar axis of a dishes' polar mount commonly seen on C band dishes for the smaller DBS dishes?


The AT9 has that adjustment on the sidecar assembly. I have not installed a slimline so was not aware that it did not have that adjustment.


----------



## sportshermit

What is the next milestone for Directv 11? Is it some sign of testing?


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> Thank you mike;
> 
> But no, unfortunately that does not answer my question. As this is not the kind of "tilt" I was referring to. I am aware of the need for this kind of "tilt" or "skew" around the axis normal to the vertex or center focus point of a multi-satellite elliptical dish.
> 
> However, I meant why is there no need for the form of tilt illustrated here for instance, http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/decchartp.html called the "declination offset" adjustment away from the north-south polar axis of a dishes' polar mount commonly seen on C band dishes for the smaller DBS dishes?


The DBS dishes don't use a polar mount. For a single LNB dish, the azimuth and elevation adjustments simply point the dish at the satellite. With a multi-satellite dish, the addition of the tilt adjustment gives the dish the ability to see a limited range of equatorial-orbit satellites by slightly offsetting the LNB feed horns from the focal point of the dish. A polar mount (with a declination adjustment) could be used, but that would increase the cost and complexity.


----------



## jdcolombo

HoTat2 said:


> Thank you mike;
> 
> But no, unfortunately that does not answer my question. As this is not the kind of "tilt" I was referring to. I am aware of the need for this kind of "tilt" or "skew" around the axis normal to the vertex or center focus point of a multi-satellite elliptical dish.
> 
> However, I meant why is there no need for the form of tilt illustrated here for instance, http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/decchartp.html called the "declination offset" adjustment away from the north-south polar axis of a dishes' polar mount commonly seen on C band dishes for the smaller DBS dishes?


C-Band dishes required a declination adjustment because they were moveable and had to track the geosyncronous satellite arc from one end to the other. The declination adjustment on a C-band dish was designed to bring it's arc track from east to west "in line" with the geosyncronous satellite arc from a given offset from the equator. Without this adjustment, if you set the elevation for a C-band dish at a specific spot (say due south, at the zenith of the arc), the aiming of the dish at either end of the arc would be off (the declination adjustment essentially made the arc of a C-band dish slightly elliptical, which is how one would see the arc of the satellites from any significant distance away from the equator. Remember that the geosync arc is centered over the equator. A dish at the equator would point straight up, and track a perfect arc from east to west. But when you move to, say, North America, you are viewing that arc at an angle. That makes the arc slightly elliptical for aiming purposes. Think of this: take a round dish and put it perfectly vertical in front of you. Notice how the edge of the dish is a perfect arc. Now tilt the dish away from you and notice how the edge of the dish - it's arc - appears slightly elliptical - flat in the center, which is now farther away from your eyes). Another way to make this adjustment would be to change the elevation of the dish at each satellite location to take into account the "offset" of the dish from the equator and the "elliptical-ization" of the arc. But this would have required motorizing the elevation adjustment as well as the azimuth adjustment (some commercial dishes, in fact, had motorized elevation capability to track satellites that were in inclined orbit). For consumer-level C-band dishes, having dual motorized controls (for both azimuth and elevation) was impractical and expensive in comparison to having a declination adjustment.

Because DBS dishes are fixed at a single satellite (or small group of satellites) and do not track an arc, the declination adjustment is unnecessary - everything can be aimed via adjusting the elevation on the dish and "skewing" the dish off center to see satellites away from the center point of the dish. Thus DBS satellites do not need a declination offset adjustment. Given the relatively tiny part of the arc used by any single DBS dish, the mismatch in elevation from the center-aimed satellite to the "edge" satellite is too small to matter (and the elliptical design of multi-sat dishes I think help compensates for any elevation error over this small slice of the arc).

John Colombo


----------



## DCappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by *tuff bob*  
_is there any way to calculate the longitude at apogee, then we might be able to guess when boeing might fire the engines to get it to GSO. You'd imagine it would be in a few degrees of 99W_



ziltomil said:


> According to the latest TLE, the soonest and best opportunity to place D11 in GSO at 99W is Sunday 18:00 UT or 2:00PM ET


Watching it happen right now on http://www.n2yo.com/


----------



## Tom Robertson

I don't think D11 will go to 99° directly. I suspect testing somewhere else first. (As D10 did.) I could be very happy being wrong...


----------



## Jon J

If the realtime info at N2YO is correct, D11 will be at 99 degrees and over 22,000 miles in altitude very soon...unless someone puts on the brakes.


----------



## davemayo

Jon J said:


> If the realtime info at N2YO is correct, D11 will be at 99 degrees and over 22,000 miles in altitude very soon...unless someone puts on the brakes.


Watching it happening right now. Looks like it is going directly to 99.


----------



## HoTat2

Problem is there will be no way to know for sure if they have started to circularize the orbit at this point until the next TLE is submitted to N2YO.com. Otherwise the program will merely continue to extrapolate from D11’s last elliptical transfer orbit TLE data.


----------



## dms1

davemayo said:


> Watching it happening right now. Looks like it is going directly to 99.


What makes you say that? It just so happens that the apogee of the current orbital cycle is close to 99 degrees. However, given that the satellite doesn't contain an infinite thrust motor (or anything close to it!) firing the motor at the desired location would actually end up giving you a longitude past the desired location. Furthermore, I think it unlikely that the orbit will be circularized with a single burn. Instead, a series of burns at apogee will be used to gradually raise the perigee.


----------



## davemayo

dms1 said:


> What makes you say that? quote]
> 
> Because I have no idea what I'm talking about but it sounded cool. :sure:


----------



## Ed Campbell

Welcome aboard, jdcolumbo.

And - davemayo - kewl honesty, dude.


----------



## davemayo

Ed Campbell said:


> Welcome aboard, jdcolumbo.
> 
> And - davemayo - kewl honesty, dude.


I guess I just wanted to be considered one of them thar rocket scientists...:lol:


----------



## HoTat2

Sure would be nice though if big corporations such as Hughes, Boeing, and DirecTV released timely updates and progress reports on things such as D11’s status to the public though. Even if such boring (to most people) technology laced information would only be of benefit to a comparatively few of us techno-geeks on forums like this  , who have a genuine interest in following this kind of stuff. 

Instead of the usual slate of stale, bland, nonspecific, and slow in forthcoming press releases from a PR dept. or some other, for general consumption. Therefore forcing us to have to scrounge around through unofficial back-channel methods this way, to try and determine what’s happening.


----------



## rotomike

Man does that D11 get low. I was just watching and it went down to 149 miles altitude before it started rising again. Now it will go to 22,000 miles or whatever. That is one big ellipse!!

Mike


----------



## SParker

rotomike said:


> Man does that D11 get low. I was just watching and it went down to 149 miles altitude before it started rising again. Now it will go to 22,000 miles or whatever. That is one big ellipse!!
> 
> Mike


Wouldn't that be entering the Earth's atmosphere?


----------



## houskamp

ARE WE THERE YET :lol:
had to do it.. 
whats the latest real position?


----------



## HoTat2

houskamp said:


> ARE WE THERE YET :lol:
> had to do it..
> whats the latest real position?


Hard to really say for sure. No new TLEs issued for D11 since last Thursday.


----------



## sat2631

Here is the ellipse from the TLE.


----------



## houskamp

cool... pictures


----------



## tuff bob

houskamp said:


> ARE WE THERE YET :lol:
> had to do it..
> whats the latest real position?


we won't know until we get a new TLE ....


----------



## Paul A

houskamp said:


> ARE WE THERE YET :lol:


Anticipation: Nominal


----------



## yuppers519

Very Interesting read here on DirecTV 11. http://www.spaceflightnow.com/sealaunch/dtv11/index.html


----------



## bobojay

rotomike said:


> Man does that D11 get low. I was just watching and it went down to 149 miles altitude before it started rising again. Now it will go to 22,000 miles or whatever. That is one big ellipse!!
> 
> Mike


Yeah, but it's nominal.....


----------



## cartrivision

bobojay said:


> Yeah, but it's nominal.....


Am I the only one who now says that word like the lady at Sea Launch says it..... nahmeeenull?


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> You imply that the Spaceways can offer national HD channels. This is not the case. Spaceway CONUS coverage was tested and determined to be unsatisfactory.
> 
> While D* style HD channels (one non-HD HD channel for every few true HD channels) can be stacked six or seven deep, most will hopefully be limited to five channels per transponder.


Why do you insist on making stuff up? Your envy has made you into a troll.


----------



## rotomike

SParker said:


> Wouldn't that be entering the Earth's atmosphere?


There is no definite boundary between the atmosphere and outer space. It slowly becomes thinner and fades into space. Three quarters of the atmosphere's mass is within 11 km of the planetary surface. In the United States, people who travel above an altitude of 80.5 km (50 statute miles) are designated astronauts. An altitude of 120 km (~75 miles or 400,000 ft) marks the boundary where atmospheric effects become noticeable during re-entry. The Kármán line, at 100 km (62 miles or 328,000 ft), is also frequently regarded as the boundary between atmosphere and outer space.

Mike


----------



## tuff bob

new TLE

DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08084.23082746 .00000025 00000-0 10599-2 0 47
2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465 107


----------



## LameLefty

rotomike said:


> Man does that D11 get low. I was just watching and it went down to 149 miles altitude before it started rising again. Now it will go to 22,000 miles or whatever. That is one big ellipse!!
> 
> Mike


You're watching a simulation based on what is almost certainly an outdated TLE. That element set is very close to the original transfer orbit once D11 was released from the Block-DM upper stage. A series of burns at apogee will raise the resulting perigee, and a series of burns at perigee will also raise the apogee to the proper geosynchronous altitude. Once the phasing is correct to align with the test slot (if there is one) or the orbital slot, the orbit will be fully circularized.

And no, generally 140 miles is not low enough to enter the atmosphere (at least not initially). If the perigee stayed that low, drag would eventually bring the satellite down within a few weeks, but again, I'm betting the perigee has been raised by now. Once a new element set is released, we will know.


----------



## tuff bob

n2y0 has the satellite now in an elipitcal orbit at -49.59 longitude


----------



## ctaranto

tuff bob said:


> n2y0 has the satellite now in an elipitcal orbit at -49.59 longitude


It's still moving, but slowly.. Now at 49.74...

-Craig


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> n2y0 has the satellite now in an elipitcal orbit at -49.59 longitude


Looks like n2y0 is still using the old TLE from last Thursday.

We had this issue with D10. n2y0 doesn't always have the latest TLE ... and there's sometimes much time between TLE's.


----------



## syphix

Orbitron, using the latest TLE has D11 at 55.9965.

DIRECTV 11
Lon	55.9965° W
Lat	0.0406° S
Alt (km)	24 213.580


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Looks like n2y0 is still using the old TLE from last Thursday.
> 
> We had this issue with D10. n2y0 doesn't always have the latest TLE ... and there's sometimes much time between TLE's.


any idea what the new TLE means to the orbit?


----------



## tuff bob

here's a java app you can use to visualize the TLE

http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm


----------



## tuff bob




----------



## jefbal99

syphix said:


> Orbitron, using the latest TLE has D11 at 55.9965.
> 
> DIRECTV 11
> Lon	55.9965° W
> Lat	0.0406° S
> Alt (km)	24 213.580


Great info, thanks


----------



## dms1

syphix said:


> Orbitron, using the latest TLE has D11 at 55.9965.
> 
> DIRECTV 11
> Lon	55.9965° W
> Lat	0.0406° S
> Alt (km)	24 213.580


The longitude has no significant meaning (to us) until the satellite is parked in geostationary orbit. Because its orbital period is currently different to that of the earth then the longitude will change over time. The longitude at apogee and perigee is significant to the timing of the orbital adjustment burns however.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> The longitude at apogee and perigee is significant to the timing of the orbital adjustment burns however.


Exactly. Adjusting those points via phasing maneuvers have a lot to do with getting the satellite "parked" in the correct GSO slot.


----------



## tuff bob

dms1 said:


> The longitude has no significant meaning (to us) until the satellite is parked in geostationary orbit.


I was more looking at a stable longitude as indication that the satellite was in GSO, but it's not.


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> I was more looking at a stable longitude as indication that the satellite was in GSO, but it's not.


Longitude isn't really stable; the relative ground speed of a high elliptical orbit at apogee is veeeeeerrrrry slow.


----------



## Sixto

Currently ...



Code:


Name			DirecTV-11
NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-24-2008 05:32:23
Orbit # at Epoch	10
Inclination		0.146
RA of A. Node		357.388
Eccentricity		0.7247076
Argument of Perigee	184.168
Revs per day		2.21596465
Period			10h 49m 49s (649.82 min)
Semi-major axis		24 852 km
Perigee x Apogee	463 x 36 484 km
BStar (drag term)	0.001059900 1/ER
Mean anomaly		162.774
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	4 / 0 day(s)

Lon			75.3164° W
Lat			0.0150° N
Alt (km)		36 480.210
Azm			273.2°
Elv			-10.7°
RA			23h 51m 39s
Decl			-6° 40' 03"
Range (km)		43 586.715
RRt (km/s)		0.043
Vel (km/s)		1.601
Direction		Ascending
Eclipse			No
MA (phase)		185.4° (131)
TA			181.3°
Orbit #			11
Mag (illum)		Not visible
Constellation		Psc)


----------



## tuff bob

so it looks like they raised the perigee from about 300km to 450km?


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> so it looks like they raised the perigee from about 300km to 450km?


 A bit more than that in fact. The perigee/apogee at launch was 250/36484 km. Therefore, they must have performed one or more burns at apogee to reduce the eccentricity of the orbit. Still a long way to go!


----------



## LameLefty

Heh - just as a lark this morning, I got Orbitron to run on my MacBook Pro using the latest version of Darwine. Dorky but fun.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> A bit more than that in fact. The perigee/apogee at launch was 250/36484 km. Therefore, they must have performed one or more burns at apogee to reduce the eccentricity of the orbit. Still a long way to go!


Indeed. The orbital period is still under 11 hours, let alone 23h56m04s. It'll get there though.


----------



## tkrandall

Tom Robertson said:


> Well... you are better at using the more precise terminology perhaps than I, but you are missing the licensing details.
> 
> Hughes was awarded many Ka-DBS (perhaps an incorrect term, but one everyone here will be familiar with) licenses in 1997, all of which included both downlink to the home in two frequency ranges: 18.3-18.8GHz and 19.7-20.2GHz. (The final frequencies were set in stone in 2000.) DIRECTV customers are interested in two of them: 99° and 101°.
> 
> In 2003 the FCC granted Hughes Electronics the right to transfer to Hughes Network Systems, PanAmSat's license for 103°. Hughes Electronics owned both Hughes Network and PanAmSat, so the FCC said, sure you own them both, no problem.
> 
> When Hughes divested DIRECTV, all three Ka-DBS licenses went to DIRECTV specifically for HD and other advanced services.
> 
> Ka-DBS is operated at 2° separation to the home on a less than 1m dish. (When considering separation, dish size is an important factor.)
> 
> This all builds up to DIRECTV can send signals to the home at both Ka frequency assignments at all three locations: 99°, 101°, and 103°. Currently, DIRECTV uses 101° for backhauling purposes. (Several reasons for that...) At some point, with LNB swap-outs (and likely several other changes) DIRECTV could very well broadcast to the home from 101°.
> 
> My current feeling is that is not D12's role. This is just a feeling, I do not have any confirmations yet.
> 
> I have theorized that D12 could be placed at 101° to be a quick spare in space, freeing up any reserves DIRECTV might hold back in the current Ka constellation of S1/S2/D10/D11.
> 
> Or DIRECTV might put D12 at 99° or 103° and make some adjustments to the balance of spot/National beams at both locations, given how extremely flexible S1/S2 are. Such adjustments might allow D12 some frequency range to broadcast in immediately as well as serve a backup role.
> 
> Until DIRECTV tells me (and then allows me to tell you) or until we all see the FCC filings, we don't really know. DIRECTV might still be working the math in preparing the FCC filing request thinking one thing but when all the numbers are crunched, come up with another solution altogether.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the info!


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> Tom - that's a very good question and one I don't know off-hand. I suspect that it's pretty much at whatever altitude the atmosphere STOPS having a measurable effect (that is, an effect which shows up over the course of a few weeks or months), so probably somewhere between around 250 - 300 miles and 1,000 mile, but I'm totally going by intuition here. My friends at JSC would probably have a better answer and if I get a chance I'll see what they say.
> 
> Interestingly, solar pressure (as they call it) does affect comsats in GEO a good deal. Their large, highly-reflective solar arrays create tiny bits of thrust which must be offset by attitude control systems and periodic tiny reboost burns. This effect was first noted in the 60's and is the basis for the concept of solar sails in SF (and perhaps someday in practice).


LameLeftty - I asked this question last week in this thread but never saw a response - perhaps you know. About how long (days, weeks) does it take for the geosynchronous transfer orbit to take the satellite from low earth orbit out to the geosynchronous orbit altitude?


----------



## Tom Robertson

tkrandall said:


> LameLeftty - I asked this question last week in this thread but never saw a response - perhaps you know. About how long (days, weeks) does it take for the geosynchronous transfer orbit to take the satellite from low earth orbit out to the geosynchronous orbit altitude?


A lot depends upon the launch site location relative to the targeted slot and what maneuvers and tests they need to perform along the way. I've seen a couple of launches reach their GSO slot in about a half a day (followed by several days of tweaking the final orbit).

Then other times, it can take several days of testing, maneuvers, orbit adjustments, etc. to reach even the GSO testing location.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## doctor j

syphix said:


> Orbitron, using the latest TLE has D11 at 55.9965.
> 
> DIRECTV 11
> Lon	55.9965° W
> Lat	0.0406° S
> Alt (km)	24 213.580


Have Orbitron. Have new TLE from space-track.
BUT new to using orbitron and can't figure out how to load a new satellite.
Can you help?

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Have Orbitron. Have new TLE from space-track.
> BUT new to using orbitron and can't figure out how to load a new satellite.
> Can you help?
> 
> Doctor j


Save the TLE to a file. 3 line file.

Click on "load TLE' within Orbitron. select the file.

After load. click on the satellite.

Should be all set,


----------



## syphix

The "copy & paste" doesn't always work as smoothly as it should...a space here or there, or a deletion of a leading "0" might be necessary. Try placing it at the bottom of a TLE file that comes with Orbitron, and following the "guides" of the other TLE's.


----------



## sportshermit

Tom Robertson said:


> A lot depends upon the launch site location relative to the targeted slot and what maneuvers and tests they need to perform along the way. I've seen a couple of launches reach their GSO slot in about a half a day (followed by several days of tweaking the final orbit).
> 
> Then other times, it can take several days of testing, maneuvers, orbit adjustments, etc. to reach even the GSO testing location.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Someone will post the reception of a test signal within moments of it occuring. I wondered too what the next hurdle for D11 was as well.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I started up Orbitron and is loaded the new TLEs but it doesn't show DirecTV 11.

There's a DirecTV 1, DirecTV 10, DirecTV 1R.

[STRIKE]What am I doing wrong?[/strike]

Mike

FORGET IT....I RELOADED THE TLE AND ON THE FIFTH TRY IT SHOWED UP....


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> I started up Orbitron and is loaded the new TLEs but it doesn't show DirecTV 11.
> 
> There's a DirecTV 1, DirecTV 10, DirecTV 1R.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Mike


1) as stated above, the TLE must be in an exact format. a cut/paste from a post here doesn't work so good. A cut/paste from the space track site works great.

2) put the TLE into a file with just three lines for the TLE. Orbitron will then just show that 1 satellite. then check it off and you're golden.

the key is getting the cut/paste right.

you only need this method until space track starts including DirecTV-11. Then you just need to put your userid/password into Orbitron and just reload directly.


----------



## tuff bob

try cutting and pasting this ... i preserved the spaces



Code:


directv 11
1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> 1) as stated above, the TLE must be in an exact format. a cut/paste from a post here doesn't work so good. A cut/paste from the space track site works great.
> 
> 2) put the TLE into a file with just three lines for the TLE. Orbitron will then just show that 1 satellite. then check it off and you're golden.
> 
> the key is getting the cut/paste right.
> 
> you only need this method until space track starts including DirecTV-11. Then you just need to put your userid/password into Orbitron and just reload directly.





tuff bob said:


> try cutting and pasting this ... i preserved the spaces
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> directv 11
> 1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
> 2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107


I kept reloading the TLE and on the fifth try it showed up...:grin:

Mike


----------



## carl066

Using the TLE accessed today, the D11 position is -67 degrees, 22,500 miles up, moving slowly to the west. Is it likely that this is the final move to the 99 degree slot?


----------



## dms1

carl066 said:


> Using the TLE accessed today, the D11 position is -67 degrees, 22,500 miles up, moving slowly to the west. Is it likely that this is the final move to the 99 degree slot?


As I said a few posts back, the longitude is not significant until the satellite is in GSO. You can't tell from the current orbit what orbital corrections they will make next, or what their immediate target is. I assume the engineers positioning this thing have a piece of software that works out the "best" (in terms of time and fuel usage) sequence of burns to achieve the desired orbit.


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> try cutting and pasting this ... i preserved the spaces
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> directv 11
> 1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
> 2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107


like that "code" tag ... nice ... now used in 2nd post also. thx


----------



## Sixto

Used the "code" tag in previous post and location much more readable now

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1515231&postcount=571


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> 1) as stated above, the TLE must be in an exact format. a cut/paste from a post here doesn't work so good. A cut/paste from the space track site works great.
> 
> 2) put the TLE into a file with just three lines for the TLE. Orbitron will then just show that 1 satellite. then check it off and you're golden.
> 
> the key is getting the cut/paste right.
> 
> you only need this method until space track starts including DirecTV-11. Then you just need to put your userid/password into Orbitron and just reload directly.


Thanks for the help.
Using a single file on desktop Orbitron works.
Why won't it work if I place same paste in geos.txt file in orbitrons tle folder?

Doctor j


----------



## Hdhead

Cool, don't know much about this but I downloaded Orbitron and followed the cut/paste instructions posted above and wa-la. I feel like a super geek now! Thanks for promoting me to next level all!


----------



## Interceptor

carl066 said:


> Using the TLE accessed today, the D11 position is -67 degrees, 22,500 miles up, moving slowly to the west. Is it likely that this is the final move to the 99 degree slot?


One thing to note is the eccentricity is still waaayyy up... (the 7247076 in the second line.) That indicates the satellite is still in an elliptical orbit. The closer that number comes to 0000000 in the future elements, the closer the satellite is to a circular orbit.


----------



## Interceptor

doctor j said:


> Why won't it work if I place same paste in geos.txt file in orbitrons tle folder?
> 
> Doctor j


Not sure. The obvious question is, are you sure that you are adding all three lines to the file? It should work if you are pasting all three lines. However, anything else and you'll likely get an error.


----------



## steveken

I just got an account on space-track.org and looked up directv 11 by the 32729. How can you tell if the TLE you get from there is newer or older than the TLE that someone put up on here? I ask because I told it to include the common name in query results and it says "Object A". Did I look up the wrong thing or what should I be using when searching?


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> I just got an account on space-track.org and looked up directv 11 by the 32729. How can you tell if the TLE you get from there is newer or older than the TLE that someone put up on here? I ask because I told it to include the common name in query results and it says "Object A". Did I look up the wrong thing or what should I be using when searching?


The epoch date/time stamp is in the first line.

1 32729U 08013A *08084.23082746 * .00000025 00000-0 10599-2 0 47


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> I just got an account on space-track.org and looked up directv 11 by the 32729. How can you tell if the TLE you get from there is newer or older than the TLE that someone put up on here? I ask because I told it to include the common name in query results and it says "Object A". Did I look up the wrong thing or what should I be using when searching?


The element number is in columns 65 to 68 of the first row. Basically, take the number from the end of the first row and drop the last digit (which is the row checksum). The element number is supposed to be incremented for each new TLE issued for a given object.


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> The date/time stamp is in the first line.
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A *08084.23082746 * .00000025 00000-0 10599-2 0 47


That's actually the epoch, not the time stamp and doesn't necessarily have to relate to the time the TLE was released. Instead, it represents the time at which all the other parameters are valid. Since the parameters are derived from a model based on observations, rather than being directly observed, the epoch could actually be anything.


----------



## steveken

This is what space-track.org is giving now.

OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08084.70000000 -.00000475 00000-0 00000+0 0 56
2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466 110


Oh, and I can't get DirecTV 11 to show on that 3D Satellite Viewer Epheremis thing for some reason. Not sure how to do it.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> That's actually the epoch, not the time stamp and doesn't necessarily have to relate to the time the TLE was released. Instead, it represents the time at which all the other parameters are valid. Since the parameters are derived from a model based on observations, rather than being directly observed, the epoch could actually be anything.


Exactly right ... at least someone is keeping us (me!) honest 

I just usually look at that date/time and can see that the TLE advanced, but your other method is certainly more precise.


----------



## DO4ISU

I don't know if this has been talked about, but the satelite will not go to the final orbital position right away will it?

Did anyone find an FCC filling stating a test location before it moves to its final resting place.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> This is what space-track.org is giving now.
> 
> OBJECT A
> 1 32729U 08013A 08084.70000000 -.00000475 00000-0 00000+0 0 56
> 2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466 110
> 
> Oh, and I can't get DirecTV 11 to show on that 3D Satellite Viewer Epheremis thing for some reason. Not sure how to do it.


Moved to 2nd post ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


----------



## Sixto

DO4ISU said:


> I don't know if this has been talked about, but the satellite will not go to the final orbital position right away will it?
> 
> Did anyone find an FCC filling stating a test location before it moves to its final resting place.


Had only found D11 filing with:
"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC has filed a modification application to relocate its DIRECTV 11 satellite from its currently assigned location at 99.2 W.L. to 99.225 W.L., and to operate DIRECTV 11 in the 29.25-29.5 GHz, 28.35-28.6 GHz frequencies for Earth-to-Space transmissions and the 18.3-18.8 GHz frequency band for Space-to-Earth transmissions."​And movement of Spaceway-2 to accommodate D11:
"On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification of the SPACEWAY 2 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the SPACEWAY 2 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.115º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink))."​Looked through last 9 months of filings. Always chance I missed something ..


----------



## steveken

LOL, that in itself doesn't tell me much. What am I supposed to be able to interpret from that? I like looking at a few things on the tracking programs like where its at, how high it is, is it going up or down, just stuff like that.

And so, I would look at the 56 on this part and compare it to the 47 on the last one and see that it is indeed newer?


----------



## DO4ISU

Thanks for the quick reply.

I just remember when Directv 10 was lauched you all found out it was going to be in a different spot for so many days for testing and then take so many days to move to its final spot.

There is so much info. on this site it is unbelieveable!!


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> LOL, that in itself doesn't tell me much. What am I supposed to be able to interpret from that? I like looking at a few things on the tracking programs like where its at, how high it is, is it going up or down, just stuff like that.
> 
> And so, I would look at the 56 on this part and compare it to the 47 on the last one and see that it is indeed newer?


Many important lines but *Perigee x Apogee	473 x 38 991 km* is very important.

When they're both 35,785 km or so then circular. All the up/down stuff doesn't mean much in the interim since the orbit is elliptical.

The experts can explain why *Inclination 0.144* and *Eccentricity 0.7376044* is also important ... plus a few others ...


----------



## Sixto

DO4ISU said:


> Thanks for the quick reply.
> 
> I just remember when Directv 11 was lauched you all found out it was going to be in a different spot for so many days for testing and then take so many days to move to its final spot.
> 
> There is so much info. on this site it is unbelieveable!!


D10 had filings with a specific test location. No such temporary location for D11 in any filing found thus far.


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> Many important lines but *Perigee x Apogee	473 x 38 991 km* is very important.
> 
> When they're both 35,785 km or so then circular. All the up/down stuff doesn't mean much in the interim since the orbit is elliptical.
> 
> The experts can explain why *Inclination 0.144* and *Eccentricity 0.7376044* is also important ... plus a few others ...


The eccentricity isn't important here in the sense that it conveys no additional information. It is essentially a measure of how far off a circle the orbit is and is easily calculated from the perigee and apogee (and the radius of the Earth).

The inclination is the angle between the orbit and the equator. For geostationary operation this must be zero. Interestingly, at launch it was (according to Sea Launch) 0.00 degrees, so it was spot on and is now a little off.


----------



## P Smith

dms1 said:


> <..>The inclination is the angle between the orbit and the equator. For geostationary operation this must be zero. Interestingly, at launch it was (according to Sea Launch) 0.00 degrees, so it was spot on and is now a little off.


That's reality of an art to control sats. Sometimes that impulse going different way from calculated.
And not always straight maneuver could be executed due other objects on way to destination point.


----------



## lwilli201

If its Inclination is zero then the satallite is passing through the satallite belt going up and down. How do they keep it from hitting other satellites positioned on the equator?


----------



## dms1

lwilli201 said:


> If its Inclination is zero then the satallite is passing through the satallite belt going up and down. How do they keep it from hitting other satellites positioned on the equator?


There's a lot of space up there, so the chances of a collision, or even a close encounter, are very small. However, any close call could be deduced from the orbital simulation and I'm sure they take this into account when working out how to get the satellite into position.


----------



## LameLefty

lwilli201 said:


> If its Inclination is zero then the satallite is passing through the satallite belt going up and down. How do they keep it from hitting other satellites positioned on the equator?


There are generally miles (sometimes tens or more miles) between each satellite at geosynchronous orbital altitudes. Satellite controllers have generally much better control of a fully-functional satellite than to need that kind of space to maneuver.


----------



## Tiger62

lwilli201 said:


> If its Inclination is zero then the satallite is passing through the satallite belt going up and down. How do they keep it from hitting other satellites positioned on the equator?


All of those calculations are made BEFORE the launch. That's why they launch at a precise time. "Flying by the seat of your pants" is pretty much frowned on, these days...Too much money involved.


----------



## Interceptor

:welcome_s

Welcome aboard, Tiger62!


----------



## lwilli201

Tiger62 said:


> All of those calculations are made BEFORE the launch. That's why they launch at a precise time. "Flying by the seat of your pants" is pretty much frowned on, these days...Too much money involved.


You got that right :lol: . Since it is showing an inclination of .144, I would assume it is not going directy through the sat belt. Please some one remind me of the name of that belt. The man for which it was named just died.


----------



## njblackberry

The Clarke belt; named after Arthur C. Clarke...


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> You got that right :lol: . Since it is showing an inclination of .144, I would assume it is not going directy through the sat belt. Please some one remind me of the name of that belt. The man for which it was named just died.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke


----------



## njblackberry

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
Altitude - 169 miles.


----------



## ctaranto

njblackberry said:


> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
> Altitude - 169 miles.


And 6 miles per second. Pretty quick, and shows the amazing effects of gravity in this type of orbit.

-Craig


----------



## Sixto

njblackberry said:


> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
> Altitude - 169 miles.


outdated TLE ... see previous posts ... only thing that counts right now is getting to circular orbit ... previous posts explain it ... along with 2nd post ...


----------



## lwilli201

njblackberry said:


> The Clarke belt; named after Arthur C. Clarke...


Thanks.


----------



## steveken

Anyone familiar with Orbitron? I ask because I don't think mine is working right. I have D11 in there and selected, but its constantly showing it off the cost of Chile or Columbia or Peru or whatever that is right there.  Shouldn't it show it a little more like n2yo does?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Despite the fact that you guys are on a whole other level with your orbit and related calculations, and my little brain occasionally throbs at some of the content here, it is still very interesting to read through all this information.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> Anyone familiar with Orbitron? I ask because I don't think mine is working right. I have D11 in there and selected, but its constantly showing it off the cost of Chile. Shouldn't it show it a little more like n2yo does?


That's not right - it's currently just west of Malaysia. Make sure you've got it set to real time and not simulation mode.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> Anyone familiar with Orbitron? I ask because I don't think mine is working right. I have D11 in there and selected, but its constantly showing it off the cost of Chile or Columbia or Peru or whatever that is right there.  Shouldn't it show it a little more like n2yo does?


Also may depend on what TLE you loaded into Orbitron. n2yo is still using the old TLE from Thursday.


----------



## steveken

Well, I thought I had it on real time as the clock says RT in the first box. I click it and it goes to a red SIM. Thats right, isn't it? I mean, when it shows RT in that box? I have the 56 TLE in it that I got from space-track.org.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> Well, I thought I had it on real time as the clock says RT in the first box. I click it and it goes to a red SIM. Thats right, isn't it? I mean, when it shows RT in that box? I have the 56 TLE in it that I got from space-track.org.


Won't match n2yo which is still using the 3rd TLE ... 5th is current ...


----------



## steveken

Still, I shouldn't have it over South America right now.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> Well, I thought I had it on real time as the clock says RT in the first box. I click it and it goes to a red SIM. Thats right, isn't it? I mean, when it shows RT in that box? I have the 56 TLE in it that I got from space-track.org.


Sorry - you are right. I was using the fourth TLE, not the fifth. It is in fact somewhere over Chilie or Brazil at the moment. They must be making orbital corrections quite fast at the moment.


----------



## steveken

Really? Cause I have 47 saved in tle-new.txt and it is showing it over somewhere just south of China and my 56 has it over Brazil now. Very weird how they can be that different.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> Still, I shouldn't have it over South America right now.


Mine has it right over South America right now.


----------



## steveken

Hmm, ok, so I guess they are really doing a lot of work on the orbit of it since 47. Guess thats a good thing.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> Hmm, ok, so I guess they are really doing a lot of work on the orbit of it since 47. Guess thats a good thing.


Indeed.

Just as an FYI, the TLE element numbers are 4 and 5, not 47 and 56. The last digit on the line is a checksum. In other words, these are the fourth and fifth TLEs released.


----------



## sat2631

Here is the ellipse for TLE #5.


----------



## steveken

Yeah, actually I knew that and understood it from all the times you guys told us. I have NO idea why the heck I kept putting it on there. Guess I am still quite the dumba$$ noob. LOL


----------



## DIRECTV-12

I can report first hand that all systems are go with my brother D11. Deployment of on-board systems is proceeding on schedule.

Didn't he look great going up? (At least for the 15 seconds I could see him).

:joy:


----------



## davemayo

DIRECTV-12 said:


> I can report first hand that all systems are go with my brother D11. Deployment of on-board systems is proceeding on schedule.
> 
> Didn't he look great going up? (At least for the 15 seconds I could see him).
> 
> :joy:


Good to hear from you again D12. Yes, your brother looked great, in fact, he look super-nominal! 

Any hints when we'll be hearing from your brother again?


----------



## LameLefty

DIRECTV-12 said:


> I can report first hand that all systems are go with my brother D11. Deployment of on-board systems is proceeding on schedule.
> 
> Didn't he look great going up? (At least for the 15 seconds I could see him).
> 
> :joy:


Excellent news! Thanks for the report. :up:


----------



## tuff bob

Here's a little trick I figured out.

I put the 1,4 and 5 TLE's into one TLE file and then loaded them up, you can see what they are up to ... right now they're raising both the apogee and perigee. It's also having the effect of making the orbit take longer. There is quite a difference between TLE 4 and 5.


----------



## HoTat2

davemayo said:


> Good to hear from you again D12. Yes, your brother looked great, in fact, he look super-nominal!
> 
> Any hints when we'll be hearing from your brother again?


Yes indeed; 

Very good to hear from you again DIRECTV-12;

And if it is at all possible could you poke your head in here every now and then to try and keep us, well ...more interested folks in the "nuts and bolts" of this stuff better informed? That is, if it will not conflict with any possible NDAs you may be under. Also is there any word (maybe through the grapevine) as to how D12 is supposed to fit into the Ka satellite fleet's mix?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> Here's a little trick I figured out.
> 
> I put the 1,4 and 5 TLE's into one TLE file and then loaded them up, you can see what they are up to ... right now they're raising both the apogee and perigee. It's also having the effect of making the orbit take longer. There is quite a difference between TLE 4 and 5.


That's a good idea. Just keep adding the new TLE's (with different names) to the same text file and then compare them all over time ... nice.


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> Here's a little trick I figured out.
> 
> I put the 1,4 and 5 TLE's into one TLE file and then loaded them up, you can see what they are up to ... right now they're raising both the apogee and perigee. It's also having the effect of making the orbit take longer. There is quite a difference between TLE 4 and 5.


Generally they will need to adjust both perigee (dramatically higher, with adjustments made at apogee), and apogee (much less of an adjustment, with changes mad at perigee). They will time the adjustments (e.g., which change and how much of a change to make on which orbit), plus possibly other phasing burns, to time things so that - eventually - they end up circular at or very, very close to the final slot they're aiming for.

And they DO need to make that orbit longer . . .MUCH longer. Raising perigee will do that. Using the current elset, the orbital period is still under 12 hours.


----------



## doctor j

tuff bob said:


> Here's a little trick I figured out.
> 
> I put the 1,4 and 5 TLE's into one TLE file and then loaded them up, you can see what they are up to ... right now they're raising both the apogee and perigee. It's also having the effect of making the orbit take longer. There is quite a difference between TLE 4 and 5.


Can anyone post TLE #1 and #2?

Can we keep a serial collection of D-11's TLE's?

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

Still working on the formatting ...



Code:


DirecTV-11 (TLE1)
1 32729U 08013A   08079.72950595 -.00000595  00000-0  00000+0 0    14
2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713    07
DirecTV-11 (TLE2)
1 32729U 08013A   08080.20694505  .00001782  00000-0  10776-2 0    28
2 32729 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077    03
DirecTV-11 (TLE3)
1 32729U 08013A   08080.57956083  .00077795  00000-0  32405-1 0    30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954    14
DirecTV-11 (TLE4)
1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107
DirecTV-11 (TLE5)
1 32729U 08013A   08084.70000000 -.00000475  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466   110


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> Still working on the formatting ...
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11 (TLE1)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08079.72950595 -.00000595  00000-0  00000+0 0    14
> 2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713    07
> DirecTV-11 (TLE2)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08080.20694505  .00001782  00000-0  10776-2 0    28
> 2 32729 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077    03
> DirecTV-11 (TLE3)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08080.57956083  .00077795  00000-0  32405-1 0    30
> 2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954    14
> DirecTV-11 (TLE4)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
> 2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107
> DirecTV-11 (TLE5)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08084.70000000 -.00000475  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
> 2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466   110


Thanks Sixto
Can Add Block DM TLE #2

OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08084.22089699 .00005811 00000-0 11253-2 0 26
2 32730 000.0487 002.9571 7324078 178.3152 173.6694 02.23765774 96

Can anyone bring up Object B (Directv 11 Block DM) TLE #1

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

If you want to load them all into Orbitron at the same time, they all can't have the same Norad# ...

Here's a set that will all load ...changed to sequential Norad #'s


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE1)
1 00001U 08013A   08079.72950595 -.00000595  00000-0  00000+0 0    14
2 00001 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713    07
DirecTV-11(TLE2)
1 00002U 08013A   08080.20694505  .00001782  00000-0  10776-2 0    28
2 00002 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077    03
DirecTV-11(TLE3)
1 00003U 08013A   08080.57956083  .00077795  00000-0  32405-1 0    30
2 00003 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954    14
DirecTV-11(TLE4)
1 00004U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
2 00004 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107
DirecTV-11(TLE5)
1 00005U 08013A   08084.70000000 -.00000475  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
2 00005 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466   110

Perigee (bottom of orbit) x Apogee (top of orbit) 
TLE#1 - 243 x 36 067 km
TLE#2 - 273 x 36 476 km
TLE#3 - 268 x 36 474 km
TLE#4 - 463 x 36 484 km
TLE#5 - 473 x 38 991 km


----------



## moonman

doctor j said:


> Thanks Sixto
> Can Add Block DM TLE #2
> 
> OBJECT B
> 1 32730U 08013B 08084.22089699 .00005811 00000-0 11253-2 0 26
> 2 32730 000.0487 002.9571 7324078 178.3152 173.6694 02.23765774 96
> 
> Can anyone bring up Object B (Directv 11 Block DM) TLE #1
> 
> Doctor j


========
OBJECT B
1 32730U 08013B 08084.22089699 .00005811 00000-0 11253-2 0 26
2 32730 000.0487 002.9571 7324078 178.3152 173.6694 02.23765774 96
1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


----------



## doctor j

moonman said:


> ========
> OBJECT B
> 1 32730U 08013B 08084.22089699 .00005811 00000-0 11253-2 0 26
> 2 32730 000.0487 002.9571 7324078 178.3152 173.6694 02.23765774 96
> 1 32730U 08013B 08080.53942308 -.00000552 00000-0 00000+0 0 13
> 2 32730 000.0608 001.7870 7325440 177.9562 088.4059 02.23796881 06


moonman

Thank you muchly!
All D-11 TLE's now posted here

Doctor j


----------



## sat2631

And here is what it looks like with all the other satellites.


----------



## Sixto

sat2631 said:


> And here is what it looks like with all the other satellites.


Very nice. Certainly shows that D11 has much change ahead of it.


----------



## LameLefty

sat2631 said:


> And here is what it looks like with all the other satellites.


Great graphic. I knew it intuitively (I have a better feel for this sort of thing than some people) - but this displays the situation very well for those who don't. :up:


----------



## cartrivision

tuff bob said:


> Here's a little trick I figured out.
> 
> I put the 1,4 and 5 TLE's into one TLE file and then loaded them up, you can see what they are up to ... right now they're raising both the apogee and perigee. It's also having the effect of making the orbit take longer. There is quite a difference between TLE 4 and 5.


Could you or someone else post a pic that shows all 5 orbits at the same time?


----------



## cartrivision

cartrivision said:


> Could you or someone else post a pic that shows all 5 orbits at the same time?


Nevermind. Figured out how to do it myself......


----------



## Sixto

Some good background on SeaLaunch: 



 ... 10 mins long ...

Also Ms. Nominal when things don't go so well ...


----------



## sat2631

Here are TLE clockwise from 1 to 5.


----------



## doctor j

sat2631 said:


> Here are TLE clockwise from 1 to 5.


How do you make those wonderful polar views.
Which program does that??

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

TLE (6th) updated in 2nd post ... 463 x 38 996 km ...


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> TLE (6th) updated in 2nd post ... 463 x 38 996 km ...


OBJECT A
1 32729U 08013A 08085.19513840 .00008975 00000-0 53097-1 0 60
2 32729 000.1426 358.1254 7379551 183.8548 171.1910 02.05800187 124

Just to get it out

Doctor j


----------



## steveken

Hmm, so the Perigee went down by 10km and the Apogee went up by 5km. And the period got 5s shorter. 

What does that do overall when they adjust it like that or what was the point if the engineers did it? Or is it possible that the Earth itself caused the changes we see? 

Just trying to understand why there would be that sort of small (overall) change.


----------



## tuff bob

steveken said:


> Just trying to understand why there would be that sort of small (overall) change.


or TLE 5 might have come out during a maneuver and TLE 6 is the final result ....


----------



## doctor j

Based on how he started and where he needs to go, none of the changes so far are significant.

Maybe testing systems just to make certain they work, but when Boeing is ready to move it we won't have to question what's going on. 

It should be fairly obvious.

Doctor j


----------



## houskamp

We like pictures  all that math was making my head hurt :lol:


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> Hmm, so the Perigee went down by 10km and the Apogee went up by 5km. And the period got 5s shorter.


The perigee is nearly double what it was at launch, but obviously still has a long way to go. It could be that they raised it a bit to avoid any possibility of upper-atmospheric drag, before doing whatever they are currently doing.


----------



## LameLefty

These are mostly small phasing maneuvers, to get the timing right for each of the many other ones to come I am sure.


----------



## JeffBowser

:lol: I was thinking the same thing. Cartoons good, numbers bad :lol:



houskamp said:


> We like pictures  all that math was making my head hurt :lol:


----------



## Tiger62

cartrivision said:


> Nevermind. Figured out how to do it myself......


It was asked earlier, but what application/website are you using to produce that graphic?


----------



## cwdonahue

Looking at the pictures really makes me scratch my head as to how you turn that lopsided eliptical orbit into a nice circular stationary one. I've read what people have posted and I guess I'll have to go back and read them again. I think I'd like more pictures (please!) as the orbit is adjusted to visualize the process. Then maybe one of our resident rocket scientists can explain what is going on to change the orbit. The multiple orbit track pictures really help. Although I took physics in college, it sure wasn't my favorite subject. Guess I should have embraced the subject and paid more attention instead of just gritting my teeth and getting through it!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Tiger62 said:


> It was asked earlier, but what application/website are you using to produce that graphic?


Orbitron


----------



## dms1

cwdonahue said:


> Looking at the pictures really makes me scratch my head as to how you turn that lopsided eliptical orbit into a nice circular stationary one. I've read what people have posted and I guess I'll have to go back and read them again. I think I'd like more pictures (please!) as the orbit is adjusted to visualize the process. Then maybe one of our resident rocket scientists can explain what is going on to change the orbit. The multiple orbit track pictures really help. Although I took physics in college, it sure wasn't my favorite subject. Guess I should have embraced the subject and paid more attention instead of just gritting my teeth and getting through it!


I'll try to give you a totally non-mathematical explanation then.

At any point in the orbit, how the satellite behaves next is determined by its speed at that time. If it wasn't for gravity, the satellite would continue to go in a straight line out into space. However, the Earth's gravity pulls it round in an arc. The slower the satellite is going, the further it will fall to earth. However, as it gets lower it also speeds up and eventually the factors are reversed and the satellite flies away from the Earth rather than falling into it. In any orbit, the apogee is the highest, but also slowest, point. Conversely, the perigee is the lowest but faster point. It is the speed at one of these points that determines what the height will be at the other. Currently, the perigee is very low because the speed at apogee is way too low. By firing the satellite's on-board motor at apogee, the speed will increase and hence so will the perigee. Each increase in speed at apogee will raise the perigee until eventually apogee and perigee are at equal heights and the orbit is circular.

Another factor that the engineers controlling the satellite have to consider is making sure that when the orbit is finally circularized at the geosynchronous height the satellite is actually in the right place above the equator. They can do this by carefully selecting exactly when to perform burns such that the satellite will eventually just stop (as seen from the Earth) in the right place.


----------



## DCappy

cwdonahue said:


> Looking at the pictures really makes me scratch my head as to how you turn that lopsided eliptical orbit into a nice circular stationary one. I've read what people have posted and I guess I'll have to go back and read them again. I think I'd like more pictures (please!) as the orbit is adjusted to visualize the process. Then maybe one of our resident rocket scientists can explain what is going on to change the orbit. The multiple orbit track pictures really help. Although I took physics in college, it sure wasn't my favorite subject. Guess I should have embraced the subject and paid more attention instead of just gritting my teeth and getting through it!


I'm NOT a rocket scientist. I found this website surfing the web, has pictures. http://my.execpc.com/~culp/space/orbit.html

*Transfer Orbit*: If we speed the satellite up while it's in low circular earth orbit it will go into elliptical orbit, heading up to apogee. If we do nothing else, it will stay in this elliptical orbit, going from apogee to perigee and back again. 
BUT, if we fire a rocket motor when the satellite's at apogee, and speed it up to the required circular orbit speed, it will stay at that altitude in circular orbit. Firing a rocket motor at apogee is called "apogee kick", and the motor is called the "apogee kick motor".


----------



## dms1

DCappy said:


> BUT, if we fire a rocket motor when the satellite's at apogee, and speed it up to the required circular orbit speed, it will stay at that altitude in circular orbit. Firing a rocket motor at apogee is called "apogee kick", and the motor is called the "apogee kick motor".


That's somewhat simplified, but is the right general concept, and what I hope I said in my previous post. In reality, you can't impart infinite acceleration onto your satellite, so you can't change from the current orbit to a circular orbit at the same maximum height simply by magically clicking your fingers at apogee. Also, the circularization is likely to take place over a series of small burns rather than one big one. This allows you more options to make minor corrections as you go along. (If you do the calculation, the speed needed to maintain a GSO is not that far off the speed to escape Earth's gravity, and you wouldn't want to be one that held the button too long, or forgot to 'carry the one', and ended up sending your satellite off into outer space.)


----------



## richall01

When I go to Test Signal Strength (h20-600) on 99b I get the beeping sound. It comes and goes. Is this part of there testing?


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> (If you do the calculation, the speed needed to maintain a GSO is not that far off the speed to escape Earth's gravity, and you wouldn't want to be one that held the button too long, or forgot to 'carry the one', and ended up sending your satellite off into outer space.)


Fortunately the thrust of a xenon ion rocket is low enough that it's not a serious concern for most GSO vehicles.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> Fortunately the thrust of a xenon ion rocket is low enough that it's not a serious concern for most GSO vehicles.


Does the Boeing 702 use the xenon ion motors for the apogee kick function too, or do they have a separate more powerful motor for that?

Also, I'm guessing that to avoid the potential for any nasty accidents, the burns are controlled by the satellite itself using a start time / duration sent from Earth rather than being controlled directly from the ground. Is this a correct assumption?


----------



## cartrivision

Tiger62 said:


> It was asked earlier, but what application/website are you using to produce that graphic?


I used this free Java app to produce it:
http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Does the Boeing 702 use the xenon ion motors for the apogee kick function too, or do they have a separate more powerful motor for that?


We debated that during D10's meanders through the sky from its much more northerly launch site. I think we figured out that it does have chemical engines but only fairly small ones, as I recall (I could be way off here - it's been 8 months ) So yeah, I mean, I guess they could burn them for a long time and end up with a very odd trajectory (didn't a Japanese satellite end up using a loop around the moon to get into GSO a few years ago? I need to google for that one to confirm my memory). I don't think there's a real risk of ejecting themselves from Earth orbit entirely by accident however.

EDITED TO ADD: Okay, I found my copy of the .pdf Boeing put out when D10 was launched. There is a 100 pound thrust liquid apogee motor, plus the XIPS. 100 pounds is a lot more thrust than an ion engine puts out, put it's gonna give a pretty small acceleration for a ~10,000 pound spacecraft.



> Also, I'm guessing that to avoid the potential for any nasty accidents, the burns are controlled by the satellite itself using a start time / duration sent from Earth rather than being controlled directly from the ground. Is this a correct assumption?


Probably so. Spacecraft control computers are pretty sophisticated. If they contain the vehicle state vector as it is and if the vehicle has a few inexpensive ring laser gyros on board (don't know if it does), it could do an inertially-guided burn and integrate its own guidance solution during the burn, then get an updated state vector from the ground after a few more hours, then repeat as necessary. Another good reason to use many small burns - so any small errors in navigation don't build up, but can be corrected in each subsequent burn.


----------



## DCappy

dms1 thanks for the posts. Like I said, I'm no rocket scientist, and for the other in this forum that are not rocket scientists, but want to know "How did they do that".
Thanks


----------



## PoitNarf

richall01 said:


> When I go to Test Signal Strength (h20-600) on 99b I get the beeping sound. It comes and goes. Is this part of there testing?


Nope, D11 isn't even in the proper orbit yet to broadcast let alone in the correct orbital slot. You won't see anything on the signal strength meter for weeks.


----------



## RarefiedAir24

Placing a satellite into (Clarke orbit) Geosynchronous orbit requires an enormous amount of energy. The launch process is usually divided into two phases; the launch phase and the orbit injection phase.

During the launch phase, the launch vehicle places the satellite into the transfer orbit--an eliptical orbit that has at its farthest point from earth (apogee) the geosynchronous elevation of 22,238 miles and at its nearest point (perigee) an elevation of usually not less than 100 miles ..

The energy required to move the satellite from the elliptical transfer orbit into the geosynchronous orbit is supplied by the satellite’s apogee kick motor (AKM). This is known as the orbit injection phase.

As of now, I believe the satellite is still in the transfer orbit...


----------



## LameLefty

RarefiedAir24 said:


> Placing a satellite into (Clarke orbit) Geosynchronous orbit requires an enormous amount of energy. The launch process is usually divided into two phases; the launch phase and the orbit injection phase.
> 
> During the launch phase, the launch vehicle places the satellite into the transfer orbit--an eliptical orbit that has at its farthest point from earth (apogee) the geosynchronous elevation of 22,238 miles and at its nearest point (perigee) an elevation of usually not less than 100 miles ..
> 
> The energy required to move the satellite from the elliptical transfer orbit into the geosynchronous orbit is supplied by the satellite's apogee kick motor (AKM). This is known as the orbit injection phase.
> 
> As of now, I believe the satellite is still in the transfer orbit...


Er. Yes. That's what the prior 28 pages of this thread have been discussing.


----------



## RarefiedAir24

my apologies, I didn't start from the first page, as habit I always click on the last page and read a few posts or go a few pages back, so I only got up to page 25 or so..


----------



## ziltomil

dms1 said:


> Does the Boeing 702 use the xenon ion motors for the apogee kick function too, or do they have a separate more powerful motor for that?


DirecTV 11 has a 450 N rocket motor that produces 70mm/s^2 of acceleration when the spacecraft is full and about double when almost empty. It takes about 2 hours for the rocket to speed it up to GSO.


----------



## cwdonahue

dms1 said:


> I'll try to give you a totally non-mathematical explanation then.
> 
> At any point in the orbit, how the satellite behaves next is determined by its speed at that time. If it wasn't for gravity, the satellite would continue to go in a straight line out into space. However, the Earth's gravity pulls it round in an arc. The slower the satellite is going, the further it will fall to earth. However, as it gets lower it also speeds up and eventually the factors are reversed and the satellite flies away from the Earth rather than falling into it. In any orbit, the apogee is the highest, but also slowest, point. Conversely, the perigee is the lowest but faster point. It is the speed at one of these points that determines what the height will be at the other. Currently, the perigee is very low because the speed at apogee is way too low. By firing the satellite's on-board motor at apogee, the speed will increase and hence so will the perigee. Each increase in speed at apogee will raise the perigee until eventually apogee and perigee are at equal heights and the orbit is circular.
> 
> Another factor that the engineers controlling the satellite have to consider is making sure that when the orbit is finally circularized at the geosynchronous height the satellite is actually in the right place above the equator. They can do this by carefully selecting exactly when to perform burns such that the satellite will eventually just stop (as seen from the Earth) in the right place.


dms1...thanks for responding. I understood that the satellite was traveling its fastest as it traveled closest to the earth and got a gravity boost as it swung around the earth. Your explanation along with the pictures explaining the apogee boost certainly helps. So, applying thrust at the apogee widens and lengthens the elipse eventully resulting in a circle when the velocity is constant (I guess the same as saying acceleration = 0) across the orbit. Back to the physics and trig calculations to prove that one.


----------



## dms1

cwdonahue said:


> (I guess the same as saying acceleration = 0)


 The acceleration most definitely isn't zero. From Newton's second law, an acceleration of zero would imply a net force experienced by the satellite of zero, and from his first law this would cause the satellite to continue at constant speed in a straight line - i.e. off into space. The acceleration resulting from the Earth's gravity is precisely what keeps the satellite in orbit.

Edit: The basis of your flawed reasoning was your assumption that the velocity is constant (which would of course mean zero acceleration). Remember that velocity is a vector, and the direction of the satellite's motion is continuously changing. Therefore, the velocity is not constant.


----------



## tuff bob

Got this link from the AMC-14 thread

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CDT


----------



## HoTat2

richall01 said:


> When I go to Test Signal Strength (h20-600) on 99b I get the beeping sound. It comes and goes. Is this part of there testing?





PoitNarf said:


> Nope, D11 isn't even in the proper orbit yet to broadcast let alone in the correct orbital slot. You won't see anything on the signal strength meter for weeks.


Correct;

Using the older nomenclature as is still done by the signal strength test screen on the h20-600 HD STB. When D11 is fully operational at its assigned obital slot of 99.2 degrees it will be listed as "99a" on your UI. "99b" is from Spaceway 2 which D11 is scheduled to join and be co-located with.


----------



## rotomike

LameLefty said:


> Er. Yes. That's what the prior 28 pages of this thread have been discussing.


Funny I got a chuckle out of that. To save a little time you should change your settings. Go under user control and then edit options and change 
the number of post show per page to 40. the you would only see 18 pages instead of 28 and it helps save time. 

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

rotomike said:


> Funny I got a chuckle out of that. To save a little time you should change your settings. Go under user control and then edit options and change
> the number of post show per page to 40. the you would only see 18 pages instead of 28 and it helps save time.
> 
> Mike


Yeah it probably would. I've left my forum settings at the default since I joined.

Anyway, I was just making the (not) subtle point that a thread that's gone on for hundreds and hundreds of posts probably has the very basics, at least, covered SOMEWHERE in it.


----------



## DIRECTV-11

Hello from Transfer Orbit. :righton: 

We have already begun testing, and all systems are nominal. :icon_bb: 

So - tell me, how did I look on TV last week? :sunsmile:


----------



## cb7214

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hello from Transfer Orbit. :righton:
> 
> We have already begun testing, and all systems are nominal. :icon_bb:
> 
> So - tell me, how did I look on TV last week? :sunsmile:


great news thanks D11....you looked great glad to hear all is well good keep us posted


----------



## DIRECTV-11

I got to tell you - that was one hell of a ride into space!

:thats:


----------



## lwilli201

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hello from Transfer Orbit. :righton:
> 
> We have already begun testing, and all systems are nominal. :icon_bb:
> 
> So - tell me, how did I look on TV last week? :sunsmile:


Do you have your wings out yet (solar panels). At what point are they usually deployed?


----------



## cb7214

DIRECTV-11 said:


> I got to tell you - that was one hell of a ride into space!
> 
> :thats:


i would imagine so :lol:


----------



## DIRECTV-10

DIRECTV-11 said:


> I got to tell you - that was one hell of a ride into space!
> 
> :thats:


WOO-HOO BrotherMan.

:hurah:


----------



## bobnielsen

DCappy said:


> dms1 thanks for the posts. Like I said, I'm no rocket scientist, and for the other in this forum that are not rocket scientists, but want to know "How did they do that".
> Thanks


Even some of us rocket scientists need a technology update now and then (the last satellite I worked on was launched in 1966!)


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Even some of us rocket scientists need a technology update now and then (the last satellite I worked on was launched in 1966!)


You know, aerospace is a funny business. Stuff I worked on for Space Station Freedom in the early 90's finally flew just last Summer/Fall as part of the ISS. Go figure.


----------



## sat2631

doctor j said:


> How do you make those wonderful polar views.
> Which program does that??
> 
> Doctor j


 i used WXtrack with WXtrackGL


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> Got this link from the AMC-14 thread
> 
> http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CDT


tuff, thanks for the link.

simple, few nice pics, clearly shows the orbit ... and just got the latest TLE ... gonna be a favorite.


----------



## GregLee

dms1 said:


> The basis of your flawed reasoning was your assumption that the velocity is constant (which would of course mean zero acceleration).


A flaw in reasoning is a mistake in how conclusions are derived from assumptions, not a mistake in assumptions.


----------



## Interceptor

Never Mind. Thought I had a new tle, but it has been listed.


----------



## mike_augie

They sure are taking there sweet tine to get that thing parked ...dont look like in the past 48 hours that they are evening trying to get it into position to try to get it there either???? guess they can "test" while it is going round and round...


----------



## Carl Spock

Why rush it? What's the hurry? This isn't Star Trek where we have to solve the problem before the next commercial.

DirecTV has said they don't plan to bring it on line for 6 months.


----------



## Tom_S

Carl Spock said:


> Why rush it? What's the hurry? This isn't Star Trek where we have to solve the problem before the next commercial.
> 
> DirecTV has said they don't plan to bring it on line for 6 months.


Yeah, but I think we all know that is BS. I don' t think there has EVER been a satellite that took that long to come online.


----------



## Carl Spock

:lol: 

That DirecTV, it's such a tease.


----------



## RarefiedAir24

rotomike said:


> Funny I got a chuckle out of that. To save a little time you should change your settings. Go under user control and then edit options and change
> the number of post show per page to 40. the you would only see 18 pages instead of 28 and it helps save time.
> 
> Mike


Thanks, that works much better!!!


----------



## tuff bob

mike_augie said:


> They sure are taking there sweet tine to get that thing parked ...dont look like in the past 48 hours that they are evening trying to get it into position to try to get it there either???? guess they can "test" while it is going round and round...


You want to plan burns to minimize the amount of fuel used ... as the satellite is moving relative to the Earth's longitude, there are more opportune times to burn so that you're closer to the final longitude of 99.2. Be patient!


----------



## sportshermit

mike_augie said:


> They sure are taking there sweet tine to get that thing parked ...dont look like in the past 48 hours that they are evening trying to get it into position to try to get it there either???? guess they can "test" while it is going round and round...


Is there a better time to move satellites into GSO such as during the summer due to earth tilt or anything else? Just sort of shot-gunning here but I'm puzzled by the September date as well and wonder if there is more to it then just padding.


----------



## P Smith

Moon or Sun have very subtitle influence to the maneuvers. Also compare to D10 launch you can't see significant difference in masses, fuel, orbits. There are no technical needs to delay of achieving GSO.


----------



## tuff bob

DirecTV says its American viewers will have access to up to 150 HDTV channels, now that its DirecTV-11 satellite was successfully launched last week. The satellite is working well and will take a couple of weeks to reach its planned 99.2 deg West orbital position, and will come into full service in September.


----------



## doctor j

DIRECTV 11_7
1 32729U 08013A 08086.60000000 -.00000270 00000-0 00000+0 0 72
2 32729 000.1250 011.4170 7460586 171.0630 108.2460 01.95852889 142


Latest TLE

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

wrap it in code tags so we can cut and paste doctor j



Code:


DIRECTV 11_7
1 32729U 08013A   08086.60000000 -.00000270  00000-0  00000+0 0    72
2 32729 000.1250 011.4170 7460586 171.0630 108.2460 01.95852889   142


----------



## LameLefty

An increase in perigee and lengthened period to over 12 hours, but also a pretty big bump to apogee. They're doing so fairly significant phasing maneuvers still.


----------



## jefbal99

Can the rocket scientists here put that into their programs and tell us what position our baby is in and if its changed much?

Another of those graphics with all the TLEs would be great.


----------



## steveken

jefbal99, you can do it yourself. Go get Orbitron (do a google search) and save the info into a new txt file and load it up. Its real easy. I am way way way away from being a rocket scientist (just a wanna be rocket nerd) and even _I_ figured it out.


----------



## Lancelink

steveken said:


> ...just a wanna be rocket nerd


This isn't going off topic, it is just an exercise break...

Now everybody up on your feet! :dance01:

To the tune of The Village People's Macho Man :joy:

Rock et rocket nerd :jumpingja:
I wanna be a rock et nerd :icon_bb:
rock et rock et nerd :welcome:
I want to be a rocket nerd :barf:

Opps, too soon after lunch!

And now... :backtotop:


----------



## doctor j

Name	DIRECTV 11_7
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-03-26 14:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	14
Inclination	0.125
RA of A. Node	11.417
Eccentricity	0.7460586
Argument of Perigee	171.063
Revs per day	1.95852889
Period	12h 15m 14s (735.23 min)
Semi-major axis	26 985 km
Perigee x Apogee	474 x 40 738 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	108.246
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	7 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Code:


directv 11_7
1 32729u 08013a   08086.60000000 -.00000270  00000-0  00000+0 0    72
2 32729 000.1250 011.4170 7460586 171.0630 108.2460 01.95852889   142

OK?! Didn't know how to do that.
Found it in FAQ's,re: wrapping


Code:


Have never been able to keep the formatting correct. I quess I've learned now.

Thanks

Doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Code:


1DIRECTV 11_7
Lon	85.1298° W
Lat	0.0069° S
Alt (km)	39 429.600
Azm	181.3°
Elv	51.3°
RA	00h 42m 00s
Decl	-4° 57' 58"
Range (km)	40 652.877
RRt (km/s)	-0.600
Vel (km/s)	1.622
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	216.3° (153)
TA	188.1°
Orbit #	14
Mag (illum)	? (0%)
Constellation	Cet

Still Learning.
Info based on visualization from Atlanta.

Doctor j


----------



## cartrivision

Here is a pic showing the difference between TLEs 1, 5, and 7.


----------



## jefbal99

what app are you using to generate that graphic.

I created the following text file and loaded it into orbitron, and I'm not finding an option for that type of view. Its also only reading the last TLE.



Code:


D11 (TLE1)
1 32729U 08013A   08079.72950595 -.00000595  00000-0  00000+0 0    14
2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713    07
D11 (TLE2)
1 32729U 08013A   08080.20694505  .00001782  00000-0  10776-2 0    28
2 32729 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077    03
D11 (TLE3)
1 32729U 08013A   08080.57956083  .00077795  00000-0  32405-1 0    30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954    14
D11 (TLE4)
1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107
D11 (TLE5)
1 32729U 08013A   08084.70000000 -.00000475  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466   110
D11 (TLE6)
1 32729U 08013A   08085.19513840  .00008975  00000-0  53097-1 0    60
2 32729 000.1426 358.1254 7379551 183.8548 171.1910 02.05800187   124
D11 (TLE7)
1 32729U 08013A   08086.60000000 -.00000270  00000-0  00000+0 0    72
2 32729 000.1250 011.4170 7460586 171.0630 108.2460 01.95852889   142


----------



## cartrivision

jefbal99 said:


> what app are you using to generate that graphic.
> 
> I created the following text file and loaded it into orbitron, and I'm not finding an option for that type of view. Its also only reading the last TLE.


It's a Java app available for free here.....
http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm


----------



## skyviewmark1

cartrivision said:


> It's a Java app available for free here.....
> http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm


I keep waiting for someone to tell me how to run a java applet. Downloaded the file, but have no clue how it works..


----------



## steveken

jefbal99, the reason you are only seeing one instance of the sat in there is because you have all the NORAD labels the same. If you want to see all of them, rename the 32729 to something like 00001 through 00007. That will show you all of them. Ephemeris is the program he used.

skyviewmark1, if you have java installed on your system so it works with webpages, just double-click the application you downloaded. If it doesn't wanna load up and gives you the box asking what you wanna do with it, tell it to look on the web for appropriate applications to run it. That should get you in the right directions. (Unless you are on a mac that is) Also, try dragging and dropping it onto your web browser to see if that works.


----------



## tuff bob

skyviewmark1 said:


> I keep waiting for someone to tell me how to run a java applet. Downloaded the file, but have no clue how it works..


double click it, if its not working (ie. pops up a dialog box about picking an app) download java here

http://java.com/en/download/index.jsp


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08086.68521110 -.00000266 00000-0 00000+0 0 97
2 32729 000.1240 359.7180 7462696 182.8231 168.2915 01.95863598 152

Name	#32729
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-03-26 16:26:42
Orbit # at Epoch	15
Inclination	0.124
RA of A. Node	359.718
Eccentricity	0.7462696
Argument of Perigee	182.823
Revs per day	1.95863598
Period	12h 15m 12s (735.20 min)
Semi-major axis	26 984 km
Perigee x Apogee	468 x 40 742 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	168.292
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	9 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## wilmot3

1#32729
Lon	98.1863° W
Lat	0.0354° N
Alt (km)	32 281.550
Azm	211.7°
Elv	39.3°
RA	01h 27m 13s
Decl	-6° 36' 40"
Range (km)	34 301.123
RRt (km/s)	-1.567
Vel (km/s)	2.418
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	269.6° (191)
TA	202.3°
Orbit #	15
Mag (illum)	? (3%)
Constellation	Cet
2Sun
Azm	235.2°
Elv	38.6°
RA	00h 24m 00s
Decl	2° 36' 17"
Lon	117.0125° W
Lat	2.5901° N
Range (km)	149 271 666
Constellation	Psc
3Moon
Azm	314.5°
Elv	-72.7°
RA	15h 57m 54s
Decl	-25° 56' 17"
Lon	116.8045° E
Lat	25.7333° S
Range (km)	412 793
Illum	80%
Phase	Waning gibbous
Constellation	Sco


----------



## cartrivision

steveken said:


> jefbal99, the reason you are only seeing one instance of the sat in there is because you have all the NORAD labels the same. If you want to see all of them, rename the 32729 to something like 00001 through 00007. That will show you all of them. Ephemeris is the program he used.


Renaming the labels isn't necessary if you are using the Java app (Ephemeris ).


----------



## Sixto

Updated the TLE in the 2nd post ...

Question for the guru's ...

Curious ...

1) If speed was the most important factor, what is the minimum time that it should take to get D11 to it's final location? Not including testing, just the time to get to 99.2 degrees Geo.

2) If satellite lifetime was the most important factor, what is the maximum time that it should take?

The curiosity is that if DirecTV decided that they wanted to extend the useful life of D11, might they have an option to delay this orbital move to gain maybe a year or two of life.

Mostly asking because it may not be as urgent to get D11 to it's final resting spot as it was with D10.

Sure, we all want the latest HD as quickly as possible, but just curious if they actually have options and what those options might be.

Would a week or two, or a month or two, maybe add a year or two to the satellite life?


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Updated the TLE in the 2nd post ...
> 
> Question for the guru's ...
> 
> Curious ...
> 
> 1) If speed was the most important factor, what is the minimum time that it should take to get D11 to it's final location? Not including testing, just the time to get to 99.2 degrees Geo.
> 
> 2) If satellite lifetime was the most important factor, what is the maximum time that it should take?


These are questions we really cannot answer except with guesses. They depend on certain technical features of the spacecraft that we are not privy too, most notably ISP of the chemical and ion engines, plus the relative quantities of propellant for each stored aboard. All we know are the launch and operational mass from which we can determine propellant. From the D10-11-12 Factsheet we know the vehicle was launched with around 5,200 pounds of fuel, most of which is _probably_ the chemical fuel for the apogee motor. However, without knowing ISP (specific impulse, a measure of engine efficiency) we don't know how much total acceleration the vehicle is capable of.

So the educated guess is they could possibly park this puppy in a few days if they absolutely had to, but they are taking weeks because it's already the most fuel-efficient way to do it.


----------



## steveken

troman said:


> In the post [post=1519392]1519392[/post]:
> 
> 
> steveken said:
> 
> 
> 
> jefbal99, you can do it yourself. Go get Orbitron (do a google search) and save the info into a new txt file and load it up. Its real easy. I am way way way away from being a rocket scientist (just a wanna be rocket nerd) and even _I_ figured it out.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried this with Orbitron 3.71, and it doesn't seem to recognize the lines I copy from the post. I can copy in lines from other TLE files, and they get recognized fine.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom
Click to expand...

If you will notice all the other posts on this topic you will see that formatting is the key to solving this problem. You have to copy the TLE's from space-track.org exactly as they are, or from the posts here that have all the information in that subset box. It has to have a specific format to the text. You can't just throw any information you want in there willy-nilly. Keep the TLE exactly formatted as it is and you will be fine. FYI, you can set up an account at space-track.org for free. That way you can get the TLE yourself as soon as its out.


----------



## steveken

cartrivision said:


> Renaming the labels isn't necessary if you are using the Java app (Ephemeris ).


I know that, but he was talking about putting in a bunch of different TLE's within Orbitron, so I was answering that question. He also asked how those pretty pictures with all the TLE's going around the earth were done. Thats why I put the name of Ephemeris in the post.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Folks, I've enjoyed reading this whole thread. Thanks to the past and present rocket scientists that have provided so much information. Many of the terms and orbits I already understood, but there was so much that I did (and do) not.


----------



## cartrivision

Here is a view from above the north pole of D-11's TLEs 1, 5, and 7, plus the TLE of D-10 for comparison to a geostationary orbit.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> These are questions we really cannot answer except with guesses ... So the educated guess is they could possibly park this puppy in a few days if they absolutely had to, but they are taking weeks because it's already the most fuel-efficient way to do it.


Thanks Lefty.

I guess what I was trying to figure out is if there's a reason why they may prefer to move D11 to it's final spot more slowly then D10, and whether the delta would be days, weeks, or months?

Yep, all guesswork. Wasn't sure if this first week is normal, or on the slow side to conserve satellite life? I guess I should go re-look at our D10 technical thread (yep, that would be different because of D11's equator launch).

All fun while we watch ...


----------



## lwilli201

cartrivision said:


> Here is a view from above the north pole of D-11's TLEs 1, 5, and 7, plus the TLE of D-10 for comparison to a geostationary orbit.


Now that makes a lot of sense. Great illustration. Thanks.


----------



## doctor j

skyviewmark1 said:


> I keep waiting for someone to tell me how to run a java applet. Downloaded the file, but have no clue how it works..


Don't want to be a complete DUMMY BUT

I agree with skyviewmark1 !!
I'm missing something here.
I have java 
I understand all about TLE's
I can see applet at screamer web site.

I CANNOT get standalone applet to work.
I CANNOT get "a 'to work to enter custom TLE's

I have folder of download BUT no .exe No obvious way to start the applet.
Double clicking everything just cycles "run with" dialog.
IE7.0 doesn't find anything to run.

I NEED a simple explaination that says 
Download standalone file to desktop.
Extract zip.
LOAD by WHAT

Please help , be more specific and more complete in step by step to load text file of TLE's

Thanks

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

doctor j said:


> Don't want to be a complete DUMMY BUT
> 
> I agree with skyviewmark1 !!
> I'm missing something here.
> I have java
> I understand all about TLE's
> I can see applet at screamer web site.


ok, what OS are you using?

if its windows XP do run > run > cmd
then type in java -version
if it doesn't spit out a java version then you don't have java installed

if it does then try doing a cd to get to where the jar file is, or use windows to copy it into the directory the command prompt is at

then do java -jar ephemeris.jar

if you do not have a java version showing, reinstall java using the link i provided earlier


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Don't want to be a complete DUMMY BUT
> 
> I agree with skyviewmark1 !!
> I'm missing something here.
> I have java
> I understand all about TLE's
> I can see applet at screamer web site.


For me in XP ... Use Windows Explorer, go to the file, right mouse click on the file, use "open with", select Java if you can find it.

You're actually "running" the jar file. It doesn't need to be unzipped.


----------



## doctor j

tuff bob said:


> ok, what OS are you using?
> 
> if its windows XP do run > run > cmd
> then type in java -version
> if it doesn't spit out a java version then you don't have java installed
> 
> if it does then try doing a cd to get to where the jar file is, or use windows to copy it into the directory the command prompt is at
> 
> then do java -jar ephemeris.jar
> 
> if you do not have a java version showing, reinstall java using the link i provided earlier


Windows XP
java version"1.6.0_05"

search *.jar results in many pages of jar files but no ephemeris .jar

A bit compressed but this is what standalone download gets:


----------



## tuff bob

your picture is too small but ...

go here

http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm

then scroll down and right click > save as on the word "standalone"

that should download a jar file to your desktop


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Windows XP
> java version"1.6.0_05"
> 
> search *.jar results in many pages of jar files but no ephemeris .jar
> 
> A bit compressed but this is what standalone download gets:


couldn't read the attachment ... so you can't find the ephemeris.jar file after the download? that's the file you need to run.


----------



## doctor j

tuff bob said:


> your picture is too small but ...
> 
> go here
> 
> http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/index.htm
> 
> then scroll down and right click > save as on the word "standalone"
> 
> that should download a jar file to your desktop


That's my point.
It does not
It downloads : ephemeris.zip

Extract and you get a folder "ephemeris"
do i need to rename it" " .jar
Thanks for the help by the way

Doctor j
no jar file in zip download


----------



## tuff bob

you could try renaming the zip to jar. I don't know whats going on there.

Here is a direct link to the jar file to download

http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/applet/ephemeris.jar


----------



## doctor j

tuff bob said:


> you could try renaming the zip to jar. I don't know whats going on there.
> 
> Here is a direct link to the jar file to download
> 
> http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/applet/ephemeris.jar


still downloads as ephemeris.zip

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

Try

http://www.midml.com/~bob/ephemeris.jar

edit: took the link down


----------



## skyviewmark1

doctor j said:


> That's my point.
> It does not
> It downloads : ephemeris.zip
> 
> Extract and you get a folder "ephemeris"
> do i need to rename it" " .jar
> Thanks for the help by the way
> 
> Doctor j
> no jar file in zip download


Sure am glad I am not the only one that couldn't figure it out.. Download only gives me a zip file..


----------



## doctor j

skyviewmark1 said:


> Sure am glad I am not the only one that couldn't figure it out.. Download only gives me a zip file..


Rename zip file
ephemeris.zip to ephemeris.jar
accept warning
double click ephemeris.jar now with new java icon and applet opens.

Thanks for the help.
Not clear at all why it downloads as .zip or any directions as to what to do with downloadable file.
"a"command works but all very slow.
Now to rename my TLE's to get multiple paths

Thanks again

Doctor j


----------



## rotomike

Ok I need to here from the experts on this. One of our DTV big wigs had a meeting today with our company and said be prepared for locals (Bangor, Maine market 152) to come anytime now and definatly before April 16th. They will be SD in MPEG4 and will come from the 99 satellite. Now this has been delayed since last fall because the spotbeam issue on the D10 screwed us and they said you will have to wait for next bird. Now there can be up to 3 different situations.
1: DTV will actually get this D11 going fairly quickly and the guy was off on his timing.
2: We will get locals from the Spaceway 99 instead and for some reason we was delayed for months. 
3: The guy is crazy and we wont have locals until at least May.

I will say this, he was very sure and we can actually start advertising and stuff and he said to gear up now they could be turned on anytime now. He also went on to say that we will be one of the first MPEG4 locals which i guess i dont understand because isnt there lots of MPEG4 locals out there? maybe he meant SD- MPEG4 locals? maybe he meant one of the first from the D11?

Now if you guys answer that you think they will come from the Spaceway 99, my question would be do they have more room on the spaceway and can they spotbeam to maine?

I wasnt in the meeting or i would have asked way more questions so this is all I got for now.

Mike


----------



## tuff bob

all I can tell you is it won't be 1.

Chances are its one of the following:

a) they got spaceway 2 working well enough
b) they're going to really come down from another satellite, either spaceway 1 or directv 10 (maybe temporarily on a CONUS beam in anticipation of D11 coming on line)


----------



## Tom Robertson

If I were to have an intelligent guess (but without any hard data yet), I'd say DIRECTV has been moving LILs around from Spaceways to D10 spotbeams (actually that part is known true) so now with that effort done, you might be getting your SD LILs from 99° Spaceway 2. (and be prepared for more rearranging after D11 is operational.) 

As for being the first, I don't think you are. I thought I'd seen a couple others ahead of you. But I could be wrong... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Brent04

tuff bob said:


> you could try renaming the zip to jar. I don't know whats going on there.
> 
> Here is a direct link to the jar file to download
> 
> http://www.screamyguy.net/ephemeris/applet/ephemeris.jar


looks like there is an issue with the link or file on the site. When you click on the link it downloads the .zip source file and not the .jar file.


----------



## doctor j

3 TLE's for Directv 11 today!?
Anyone catch #8
Please post.
Any source for sequential TLE's if you miss one.
I'm registered with space-track but can't locate past or even recent past elements. 
Thank you

Doctor j


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> Rename zip file
> ephemeris.zip to ephemeris.jar
> accept warning
> double click ephemeris.jar now with new java icon and applet opens.
> 
> Thanks for the help.
> Not clear at all why it downloads as .zip or any directions as to what to do with downloadable file.
> "a"command works but all very slow.
> Now to rename my TLE's to get multiple paths
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Doctor j


You don't have to rename the TLEs with the ephemeris app. It will load multiple TLEs with duplicate IDs.


----------



## tuff bob

Code:


D11_1
1 32729U 08013A   08079.72950595 -.00000595  00000-0  00000+0 0    14
2 32729 000.0442 041.9240 7301134 137.3253 154.1349 02.25930713    07
D11_2
1 32729U 08013A   08080.20694505  .00001782  00000-0  10776-2 0    28
2 32729 000.0607 004.5242 7312996 175.2731 179.9998 02.22931077    03
D11_3
1 32729U 08013A   08080.57956083  .00077795  00000-0  32405-1 0    30
2 32729 000.0562 359.3307 7314744 180.5944 119.0540 02.22983954    14
D11_4
1 32729U 08013A   08084.23082746  .00000025  00000-0  10599-2 0    47
2 32729 000.1463 357.3875 7247076 184.1679 162.7743 02.21596465   107
D11_5
1 32729U 08013A   08084.70000000 -.00000475  00000-0  00000+0 0    56
2 32729 000.1440 007.5960 7376044 174.1790 164.4470 02.05774466   110
D11_6
1 32729U 08013A   08085.19513840  .00008975  00000-0  53097-1 0    60
2 32729 000.1426 358.1254 7379551 183.8548 171.1910 02.05800187   124
D11_7
1 32729U 08013A   08086.60000000 -.00000270  00000-0  00000+0 0    72
2 32729 000.1250 011.4170 7460586 171.0630 108.2460 01.95852889   142
D11_8
1 32729U 08013A   08086.60434851 -.00000271  00000-0  00000+0 0    89
2 32729 000.1296 359.4545 7462615 183.0618 111.2759 01.95865222   147
D11_9
1 32729U 08013A   08086.68521110 -.00000266  00000-0  00000+0 0    97
2 32729 000.1240 359.7180 7462696 182.8231 168.2915 01.95863598   152


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> 3 TLE's for Directv 11 today!?
> Anyone catch #8
> Please post.
> Any source for sequential TLE's if you miss one.
> I'm registered with space-track but can't locate past or even recent past elements.
> Thank you
> 
> Doctor j


TLEs 7, 8 and 9 seem to travel identical paths, as do TLEs 5 and 6.


----------



## dms1

cartrivision said:


> TLEs 7, 8 and 9 seem to travel identical paths, as do TLEs 5 and 6.


They might look that way, but they are not. If you look at the eccentricity in the TLEs (the value on the second line beginning 73 or 74) they are all different.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> They might look that way, but they are not. If you look at the eccentricity in the TLEs (the value on the second line beginning 73 or 74) they are all different.


I know that their TLE parameters are different, but when you look at the plot of their paths at the resolutions that we are typically looking at, they are essentially identical.


----------



## rotomike

Tom Robertson said:


> If I were to have an intelligent guess (but without any hard data yet), I'd say DIRECTV has been moving LILs around from Spaceways to D10 spotbeams (actually that part is known true) so now with that effort done, you might be getting your SD LILs from 99° Spaceway 2. (and be prepared for more rearranging after D11 is operational.)
> 
> As for being the first, I don't think you are. I thought I'd seen a couple others ahead of you. But I could be wrong...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hey Tom, if there has been a couple others ahead, so to speak, are you talking mpeg4 or SD mpeg4 or what. I thought all these new HD locals are MPEG4.

I guess that could explain things if they are moving some from spaceway then maybe they finally have the room for us. I suppose(pure speculation) with the spotbeam problem with D10 they may be more efficiently moving locals around to get the most use out of the spotbeam areas they are hitting and are capable of with both Spaceways and D-satellites. All this juggling may be taking awhile to figure out and they are just getting to our area now.

Is it possible that the guy did indeed mean the D11 and just was wrong on the timing and maybe it will be up at lets say April 30th-- 2 weeks later then he said. that would be a month and a half from lift off of the D11 which supposedly is time enough to get it going? Maybe when he said the first he meant on the D11?

Also Tom if you get in data or rumours or heresay i would love to here it!!

Mike


----------



## Tom Robertson

rotomike said:


> Hey Tom, if there has been a couple others ahead, so to speak, are you talking mpeg4 or SD mpeg4 or what. I thought all these new HD locals are MPEG4.
> 
> I guess that could explain things if they are moving some from spaceway then maybe they finally have the room for us. I suppose(pure speculation) with the spotbeam problem with D10 they may be more efficiently moving locals around to get the most use out of the spotbeam areas they are hitting and are capable of with both Spaceways and D-satellites. All this juggling may be taking awhile to figure out and they are just getting to our area now.
> 
> Is it possible that the guy did indeed mean the D11 and just was wrong on the timing and maybe it will be up at lets say April 30th-- 2 weeks later then he said. that would be a month and a half from lift off of the D11 which supposedly is time enough to get it going? Maybe when he said the first he meant on the D11?


I doubt anthing would be announced to anyone that hinges on D11 in the next 2 months. Way too risky at this point. (And there are already signs that PR is saying D11 won't be operational until Fall.)

So it has to be on one of the three existing operational Ka satellites.

All HD locals (beyond NY and LA) are MPEG4. Some SD locals are either already or about to become MPEG4.

To accommodate all this, MPEG4 HD has been moving off the Spaceways to D10. (Salt lake was one.)


rotomike said:


> Also Tom if you get in data or rumours or heresay i would love to here it!!
> 
> Mike


Before we get 5,000 posts saying "Me too!", yeah, I know we'd all like to hear all the rumors that Earl and Tom can dig up. We'd like to hear them too. 

Alas, we can't speak some of what we know. I'd much rather keep the friends I have both here and at DIRECTV than just "get a scoop."

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Interceptor

doctor j said:


> I'm registered with space-track but can't locate past or even recent past elements.
> Thank you
> 
> Doctor j


Log in to Space-Track. Select "Retrieve TLE Data by Satellite ID Number" in the left column. Enter the ID number in the box, in this case 32729. Below that, under "Epoch" choose "Selected Timespan" Enter the beginning date and ending date. This will give you every element set for that satellite, returning up to 5000 records. (Give it a try with ISS #25544)!


----------



## doctor j

Interceptor said:


> Log in to Space-Track. Select "Retrieve TLE Data by Satellite ID Number" in the left column. Enter the ID number in the box, in this case 32729. Below that, under "Epoch" choose "Selected Timespan" Enter the beginning date and ending date.


Thanks *Intercptor* !
Worked like a charm.

Directv 11 TLE #8 "for the record"



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08086.60434851 -.00000271  00000-0  00000+0 0    89
2 32729 000.1296 359.4545 7462615 183.0618 111.2759 01.95865222   147

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

TLE #10 ... similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE10)
1 32729U 08013A   08087.19470625  .00008353  00000-0  54931-1 0   108
2 32729 000.1309 357.8901 7462767 184.8105 167.4989 01.95855930   163

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-27-2008 04:40:22
Orbit # at Epoch	16
[B]Inclination		0.131[/B]
RA of A. Node		357.890
Eccentricity		0.7462767
Argument of Perigee	184.811
Revs per day		1.95855930
Period			12h 15m 14s (735.23 min)
Semi-major axis		26 984 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	468 x 40 744 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.054931000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		167.499
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	10 / 0 day(s)


----------



## rotomike

WE will be getting our new Bangor, Maine locals by April 16th. From what I understand is that we will be one of the first MPEG4 only locals in the continental US. We must be getting the signal from the Spaceway 2 -99 degree satellite if this is to be true. I am disapointed that they will be in SD and not HD as we will all need HD receivers to get the programming and Bangor already has digital so its sad they chose not to have HD. Seemed like a no brainer to go HD now.

Mike


----------



## davemayo

Sixto said:


> TLE #10 ... similar ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE10)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08087.19470625  .00008353  00000-0  54931-1 0   108
> 2 32729 000.1309 357.8901 7462767 184.8105 167.4989 01.95855930   163
> 
> NORAD #            32729
> COSPAR designator    2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)        03-27-2008 04:40:22
> Orbit # at Epoch    16
> [B]Inclination        0.131[/B]
> RA of A. Node        357.890
> Eccentricity        0.7462767
> Argument of Perigee    184.811
> Revs per day        1.95855930
> Period            12h 15m 14s (735.23 min)
> Semi-major axis        26 984 km
> [B]Perigee x Apogee    468 x 40 744 km[/B]
> BStar (drag term)    0.054931000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly        167.499
> Propagation model    SDP4
> Element number / age    10 / 0 day(s)


Anyone want to provide a new visual showing the latest TLE's? Thanks from us non-rocket scientist types.


----------



## cforrest

rotomike said:


> WE will be getting our new Bangor, Maine locals by April 16th. From what I understand is that we will be one of the first MPEG4 only locals in the continental US. We must be getting the signal from the Spaceway 2 -99 degree satellite if this is to be true. I am disapointed that they will be in SD and not HD as we will all need HD receivers to get the programming and Bangor already has digital so its sad they chose not to have HD. Seemed like a no brainer to go HD now.
> 
> Mike


I thought Palm Springs, CA was one of the first and they were turned on a few months ago as I recall!

This post has the info on that, which is the same as Bangor, ME it seems:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=108980&highlight=palm+springs,+ca


----------



## rotomike

Yeah under the HD locals DMA list i see what may be 5 cities that get MPEG4 only on the 103. I guess we wont be first but maybe the first on the 99 

I am an installer and will be very busy starting in a couple weeks. Every current DTV customer with round dish will need a slimline and new equipment plus we will get lots of new customers from cable or dish now that DTV has locals. Lots of work ahead!!

Mike


----------



## doctor j

Can't run ephemeris at work

Here's the orbit of TLE 10 alone
Not much change


----------



## Sixto

davemayo said:


> Anyone want to provide a new visual showing the latest TLE's? Thanks from us non-rocket scientist types.


The best site seems to be: http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT

It usually takes a few hours for the site to post the latest TLE (has #9 now) but it's a nice single spot with an orbital plane view, satellite view, ground view, and short list of the key satellite data (Epoch timestamp, Eccentricity, Inclination, Perigee Height, Apogee Height, Revolutions per Day, Orbit Number at Epoch, ...).

Had added the link to the 2nd post.


----------



## davemayo

Sixto said:


> The best site seems to be: http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT
> 
> It usually takes a few hours for the site to post the latest TLE (has #9 now) but it's a nice single spot with an orbital plane view, satellite view, ground view, and short list of the key satellite data (Epoch timestamp, Eccentricity, Inclination, Perigee Height, Apogee Height, Revolutions per Day, Orbit Number at Epoch, ...).
> 
> Had added the link to the 2nd post.


Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

Added "incremental hours" to timeline in 2nd post ... will keep updated ... easier to understand timeframe between TLE's.


Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE# 1 (3/19/2008): 243 x 36,067 km (Original)
TLE# 2 (3/20/2008): 273 x 36,476 km (+11.5 hours from previous TLE, at .5 days)
TLE# 3 (3/20/2008): 268 x 36,474 km (+8.9 hours, at .9 days))
TLE# 4 (3/24/2008): 463 x 36,484 km (+87.6 hours, at 4.5 days)
TLE# 5 (3/24/2008): 473 x 38,991 km (+11.3 hours, at 5.0 days)
TLE# 6 (3/25/2008): 463 x 38,996 km (+11.9 hours, at 5.5 days)
TLE# 7 (3/26/2008): 474 x 40,738 km (+33.7 hours, at 6.9 days)
TLE# 8 (3/26/2008): 469 x 40 742 km (+.1 hours, at 6.9 days)
TLE# 9 (3/26/2008): 468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours, at 7.0 days)
TLE#10 (3/27/2008): 468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> Added "incremental hours" to timeline in 2nd post ... will keep updated ... easier to understand timeframe between TLE's.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE# 1 (3/19/2008): 243 x 36,067 km (Original)
> TLE# 2 (3/20/2008): 273 x 36,476 km (+11.5 hours from previous TLE)
> TLE# 3 (3/20/2008): 268 x 36,474 km (+8.9 hours)
> TLE# 4 (3/24/2008): 463 x 36,484 km (+87.6 hours)
> TLE# 5 (3/24/2008): 473 x 38,991 km (+11.3 hours)
> TLE# 6 (3/25/2008): 463 x 38,996 km (+11.9 hours)
> TLE# 7 (3/26/2008): 474 x 40,738 km (+33.7 hours)
> TLE# 8 (3/26/2008): 469 x 40 742 km (+.1 hours)
> TLE# 9 (3/26/2008): 468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours)
> TLE#10 (3/27/2008): 468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours)


Someone needs to tell those Boeing guys that it's the perigee, not the apogee, they should be raising.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> Someone needs to tell those Boeing guys that it's the perigee, not the apogee, they should be raising.


You think they'll be some dramatic jump at some point, or it will be gradual?

You gotta volunteer to take the controls!


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> You think they'll be some dramatic jump at some point, or it will be gradual?
> 
> You gotta volunteer to take the controls!


Yeah - just give me the joystick and I'll show them how it's done. I reckon a couple of quick spins around the moon, followed by a hair-raising dip into the atmosphere to buzz some unsuspecting souls and then back up for a grand-finale hand-brake turn into the parking spot. 

Back to reality, and your question, it's likely that the circularization of the orbit will take place over a number of orbits, partly because of the small capability of the on-board chemical motor and partly because it allows better opportunity to correct for any incremental errors in the positioning.


----------



## carl066

Looking at the recent TLE data, as of this post, D11 is at -76 degrees at an altitude above the geostationary orbit. Thus it is moving slowly in a westerly direction above the existing satellites in the area. I'm no expert, but do you suppose all they'll have to do is when it approaches -99 degress, they'll fire a short retro thrust, nudging it lower and slowing it to stationary? It's really interesting to monitor its progress!


----------



## dms1

carl066 said:


> Looking at the recent TLE data, as of this post, D11 is at -76 degrees at an altitude above the geostationary orbit. Thus it is moving slowly in a westerly direction above the existing satellites in the area. I'm no expert, but do you suppose all they'll have to do is when it approaches -99 degress, they'll fire a short retro thrust, nudging it lower and slowing it to stationary? It's really interesting to monitor its progress!


No - it doesn't work that way. To get into the correct orbit, four things have to happen:

1. The orbit needs to be circular.
2. The orbital height needs to be correct for synchronous rotation - which is 35786 km.
3. The inclination needs to be zero, so the satellite is in geostationary, and not just geosynchronous, orbit.
4. The satellite needs to be at the correct longitude.

The inclination is not far off, thanks mainly to the equatorial launch. Indeed, it was spot on at launch. However, the orbit is currently far from circular (the perigee is still less than 500 km) and the height at apogee is wrong too. It could be that they will initiate a series of burns at apogee to circularize the orbit somewhat higher than the GSO level, which then means it will appear to slip backwards in longitude. They could then use a series of small burns around the orbit to slowly drop it into GSO at the right longitude.


----------



## Sixto

D10 launched 7/7/2007.

D10 got somewhat circular at 11 days (34,206x37,119) on 7/18/2007 with 1.007 revolutions per day ...

And fairly perfect exactly at 40 days (35,784x35789) on 8/16/2007.

And to 102 degrees at 41 days.

It may be a while for D11 ...

Also gonna look at Spaceway-1 which was SeaLaunch but that sat had some delays getting to the final location.


----------



## davemayo

This link is to an interesting, and understandable (at least for me, an engineer) discussion of the basics of space flight. For example, it explains the calculations necessary to determine how to go from the transfer orbit to the geostationary orbit, which is what D11 will be doing.

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm


----------



## Darkscream

Yowsa - there is some good bed time reading there

I think I am going to wait for the Movie.


----------



## LameLefty

davemayo said:


> This link is to an interesting, and understandable (at least for me, an engineer) discussion of the basics of space flight. For example, it explains the calculations necessary to determine how to go from the transfer orbit to the geostationary orbit, which is what D11 will be doing.
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm


That's a hell of a good site if you have the math (and personal inclination) to follow it all. It's pretty much like the semester-long undergraduate orbital mechanics class I took a long time ago in a nutshell.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> That's a hell of a good site if you have the math (and personal inclination) to follow it all. It's pretty much like the semester-long undergraduate orbital mechanics class I took a long time ago in a nutshell.


mighty BIG nutshell!


----------



## davemayo

LameLefty said:


> That's a hell of a good site if you have the math (and personal inclination) to follow it all. It's pretty much like the semester-long undergraduate orbital mechanics class I took a long time ago in a nutshell.


I certainly wasn't implying that I could now run off and launch a satellite into space, but it helped me put into context the last several hundred posts in this thread about what D11 is doing.


----------



## LameLefty

Just remember too, as you review some of that stuff, that the first spacecraft were launched using numbers calculated using slide rules, paper and pencil. And that your cell phone has vastly more memory and processing power than the Apollo guidance computers that took men to the moon.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> And that your cell phone has vastly more memory and processing power than the Apollo guidance computers that took men to the moon.


However, I believe that the ground-based trajectory calculations for Apollo were done using analog computers controlled by a small (as in very low performance by today's standards) digital computer. Analog computers are very good at solving differential equations almost instantly, which is of course exactly what you want for this type of calculation. I suspect that without such a hybrid arrangement Apollo 13 would have been the end of three astronauts.


----------



## davemayo

LameLefty said:


> Just remember too, as you review some of that stuff, that the first spacecraft were launched using numbers calculated using slide rules, paper and pencil. And that your cell phone has vastly more memory and processing power than the Apollo guidance computers that took men to the moon.


It is so funny that you mention that because at lunch today I made that exact comment to a couple of my colleagues. I recently went to the Kennedy Space Center where they have a mock up of the control room used for Apollo 11 and it is amazing how primitive that equipment looks. It is a real testament to the intelligence and talent of the folks that accomplished the moon landings.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> However, I believe that the ground-based trajectory calculations for Apollo were done using analog computers controlled by a small (as in very low performance by today's standards) digital computer. Analog computers are very good at solving differential equations almost instantly, which is of course exactly what you want for this type of calculation. I suspect that without such a hybrid arrangement Apollo 13 would have been the end of three astronauts.


True, by Apollo missions things had improved quite a bit. But by then space flight was already a decade old.


----------



## carl066

dms1 said:


> No - it doesn't work that way. To get into the correct orbit, four things have to happen:
> 
> 1. The orbit needs to be circular.
> 2. The orbital height needs to be correct for synchronous rotation - which is 35786 km.
> 3. The inclination needs to be zero, so the satellite is in geostationary, and not just geosynchronous, orbit.
> 4. The satellite needs to be at the correct longitude.
> 
> The inclination is not far off, thanks mainly to the equatorial launch. Indeed, it was spot on at launch. However, the orbit is currently far from circular (the perigee is still less than 500 km) and the height at apogee is wrong too. It could be that they will initiate a series of burns at apogee to circularize the orbit somewhat higher than the GSO level, which then means it will appear to slip backwards in longitude. They could then use a series of small burns around the orbit to slowly drop it into GSO at the right longitude.


Thanks for the info. Interesting days ahead!


----------



## tuff bob

the real question is was Apollo 11 a bust since I don't remember getting upto 150 HD tv channels from that one :hurah:


----------



## FHSPSU67

dms1 said:


> However, I believe that the ground-based trajectory calculations for Apollo were done using analog computers controlled by a small (as in very low performance by today's standards) digital computer. Analog computers are very good at solving differential equations almost instantly, which is of course exactly what you want for this type of calculation. I suspect that without such a hybrid arrangement Apollo 13 would have been the end of three astronauts.


If my memory serves me, the Apollo astronauts carried Hewlett-Packard HP-65 programmable pocket calculators (PPC's) for backup.


----------



## litzdog911

FHSPSU67 said:


> If my memory serves me, the Apollo astronauts carried Hewlett-Packard HP-65 programmable pocket calculators (PPC's) for backup.


I doubt that. The first HP calculator (HP35) wasn't introduced until around 1973.


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08087.19470625 .00008353 00000-0 54931-1 0 108
2 32729 000.1309 357.8901 7462767 184.8105 167.4989 01.95855930 163

Name	#32729
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-03-27 04:40:22
Orbit # at Epoch	16
Inclination	0.131
RA of A. Node	357.890
Eccentricity	0.7462767
Argument of Perigee	184.810
Revs per day	1.95855930
Period	12h 15m 14s (735.23 min)
Semi-major axis	26 984 km
Perigee x Apogee	468 x 40 744 km
BStar (drag term)	0.054931000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	167.499
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	10 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## wilmot3

1#32729
Lon	109.9421° W
Lat	0.0568° N
Alt (km)	25 518.880
Azm	225.9°
Elv	31.0°
RA	02h 01m 43s
Decl	-8° 03' 10"
Range (km)	28 134.616
RRt (km/s)	-2.306
Vel (km/s)	3.197
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	297.4° (211)
TA	213.1°
Orbit #	17
Mag (illum)	? (6%)


----------



## lwilli201

Perigee x Apogee 468 x 40 744 km

These are the only numbers that make any sense to me. When they both start getting closer to 35784 km I will get excited.


----------



## Sixto

wilmot3 said:


> 1 32729U 08013A 08087.19470625 .00008353 00000-0 54931-1 0 108
> 2 32729 000.1309 357.8901 7462767 184.8105 167.4989 01.95855930 163 ...


yep, was posted this morning ... 2nd post will always have the latest ...


----------



## Interceptor

lwilli201 said:


> Perigee x Apogee 468 x 40 744 km
> 
> These are the only numbers that make any sense to me. When they both start getting closer to 35784 km I will get excited.


I always look at the eccentricity. The closer it gets to 0, the closer it gets to that "perfect" circle!


----------



## dms1

Interceptor said:


> I always look at the eccentricity. The closer it gets to 0, the closer it gets to that "perfect" circle!


The advantage of course being that it can be read directly off the TLE without loading it into any software.

(It's the fifth parameter on the second line, with an assumed leading "0.", for any one who is interested.)


----------



## rrrick8

lwilli201 said:


> Perigee x Apogee 468 x 40 744 km
> 
> These are the only numbers that make any sense to me. When they both start getting closer to 35784 km I will get excited.





Interceptor said:


> I always look at the eccentricity. The closer it gets to 0, the closer it gets to that "perfect" circle!


Personally, I look at the signal strength meter on the setup menu.
Until it hits that, it's worthless to me.


----------



## cartrivision

rrrick8 said:


> Personally, I look at the signal strength meter on the setup menu.
> Until it hits that, it's worthless to me.


I guess that would be of some worth if you were some kind of techno-geek satellite watcher nerd. :computer:

Personally, I look for new channels to show up in the channel guide.

Until it hits that, it's worthless to me.:righton:


----------



## Ulicni

FHSPSU67 said:


> If my memory serves me, the Apollo astronauts carried Hewlett-Packard HP-65 programmable pocket calculators (PPC's) for backup.


It would have to have been an HP-9100, the 65 didn't come out til 1972.


----------



## Sixto

Interesting point in the FCC HD LIL document today ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1522228&postcount=72

"See DIRECTV February 13, 2008, ex parte at 2. ("The design, construction, and launch of a new spot-beam satellite takes roughly four years - approximately six months to submit satellite specifications, three months to secure a manufacturer, thirty-six months to build and launch the satellite, *three months to raise its orbit, and one month to test the satellite.*")"


----------



## sbelmont

litzdog911 said:


> I doubt that. The first HP calculator (HP35) wasn't introduced until around 1973.


That's about right. A high school friend of mine's dad worked for HP and he got all of us in physics a deal on the brand new 10 line programmable HP calculator that came out in 1975. Don't recall the model number, but it is still laying around the house somewhere. It was top of the line at the time.


----------



## CoramDeo

litzdog911 said:


> I doubt that. The first HP calculator (HP35) wasn't introduced until around 1973.


Actually, they used the Pickett N 600 slide rule. The link below is a picture of the Apollo 11 crew with Michael Collins sporting one of these compact beauties. I came along after slide rules had been obliterated by the HP calculators, but I have gained an appreciation for them from some of the older engineers at work.

http://www.sliderulemuseum.com/SR_Images/Apollo11_Astronauts.jpg


----------



## njblackberry

I used a slide rule in high school, but the first TI calculators (with all four functions) came out my senior year. I still have it.


----------



## ziltomil

you guys are old...


----------



## carl6

I actually still have a slide rule. Have not used it for some time though. I remember the first 4 function calculators (add, subtract, multiply, divide - no other functions) I saw were while serving in the Army in Germany in the early 70's. Rather costly too, over $100 if I recall correctly.

Carl


----------



## steveken

geez, you guys ARE old.  I think I have that picket n 600 laying around in my footlocker. It was my dads and somehow I ended up with it. (He's still around, so its not from that. hehe)

On a separate note, has anyone elses forums turned black and white on them? I mean, I don't have any of the normal colored ads at the top, the reply screen looks weird. It just doesn't look like itself at all.


----------



## lwilli201

I can not remember how many 80 column forms I have filled out so they could be used to punch cards. The first word processor I used at work was a Wang. They had an 8" floppy (I think it was 8" but it was big). Next came the Apple IIe computer (My first computer) I still have it and it still works. And yes I am getting old. :lol:


----------



## bubbers44

commodore 64 for me was first computer. OK, I am 64. I remember 5 cent coke machines, phones you had batteries in and cranked rings and Howdy Doody. Get over it, I am loving this new age.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ok guys, enough Senior-itus, let us return back to discussing DIRECTV-11.

:backtotop

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

Tom Robertson said:


> Ok guys, enough Senior-itus, let us return back to discussing DIRECTV-11.
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Are we there yet??? :hurah: :lol:


----------



## Sixto

houskamp said:


> Are we there yet??? :hurah: :lol:


After analyzing the D10 and Spaceway-1 TLE's, I'd say we may be at least 20-30 days from a safe park at 99.225 degrees and a circular orbit.

D10 got there in 40 days and Spaceway-1 was much longer ...


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> After analyzing the D10 and Spaceway-1 TLE's, I'd say we may be at least 20-30 days from a safe park at 99.225 degrees and a circular orbit.
> 
> D10 got there in 40 days and Spaceway-1 was much longer ...


how long before they reached a GSO though... thats when testing begins ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

testing has been underway since acquisition... (Maybe even before?)


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> how long before they reached a GSO though... thats when testing begins ...


It took D10 40 days to get perfect at Geostationary ... at 56th TLE ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1521350&postcount=776


----------



## tuff bob

Tom Robertson said:


> testing has been underway since acquisition... (Maybe even before?)


but i assume until it reaches GSO in a temporary location, the main testing of transponders can't begin.

sending pings to a satellite only proves so much.


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> but i assume until it reaches GSO in a temporary location, the main testing of transponders can't begin.
> 
> sending pings to a satellite only proves so much.


you ask a very good question.

was thinking same the other day, how much testing can they do in the first 30-45 days as they move the satellite and circularize the orbit?

Does it need to be compact for these moves? and not spread all it's wings?


----------



## kentuck1163

Sixto said:


> you ask a very good question.
> 
> was thinking same the other day, how much testing can they do in the first 30-45 days as they move the satellite and circularize the orbit?
> 
> Does it need to be compact for these moves? and not spread all it's wings?


No atmosphere in space - so, no drag.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto: what location did D10 hit GSO at ... i want to say I remember hearing initial testing was done around 85W?

edit: never mind, looks like from the tech thread it was tested at 102.6


----------



## Ed Campbell

I still have my Pickett 2-T here in the study:


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> Sixto: what location did D10 hit GSO at ... i want to say I remember hearing initial testing was done around 85W?
> 
> edit: never mind, looks like from the tech thread it was tested at 102.6


yep, D10 went to 35,784 x 35,789 at TLE #56 at 40 days - 8/16 (was 104.4 degrees). Hit 102.55 two days later (8/18) at TLE#58. Was 35 742 x 35 809 km at TLE #55.


----------



## steveken

hmmm, n2yo doesn't show d11 for me anymore. called object a again and I had to manually find the sat and double click it for info to come up. weird.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Just one point of clarification (correction) of my earlier statement about the HP-65 - It was used during the Apollo-Soyuz missions in 1975. I had been thinking it was used during the moon landing, but of course (as pointed out by Litzdog) that was before HP calculators.


> In September 1975, an advertisement in Scientific American read:
> 
> "HP-65 in space with Apollo-Soyuz.
> The American astronauts calculated critical course-correction maneuvers on their HP-65 programmable hand-held during the rendezvous of the U.S. and Russian spacecraft.
> 
> Twenty-four minutes before the rendezvous in space, when the Apollo and Soyuz were 12 miles apart, the American astronauts corrected their course to place their spacecraft into the same orbit as the Russian craft. Twelve minutes later, they made a second positioning maneuver just prior to braking, and coasted in to linkup.
> 
> In both cases, the Apollo astronauts made the course-correction calculations on their HP-65. Had the on-board computer failed, the spacecraft not being in communication with ground stations at the time, the HP-65 would have been the only way to make all the critical calculations. Using complex programs of nearly 1000 steps written by NASA scientists and pre-recorded on magnetic program cards, the astronauts made the calculations automatically, quickly, and with ten-digit accuracy.
> 
> The HP-65 also served as a backup for Apollo's on-board computer for two earlier maneuvers. Its answers provided a confidence-boosting double-check on the coelliptic (85 mile) maneuver, and the terminal phase initiation (22 mile) maneuver, which placed Apollo on an intercept trajectory with the Russian craft.
> 
> Periodically throughout their joint mission, the Apollo astronauts also used the HP-65 to calculate how to point a high-gain antenna precisely at an orbiting satellite to assure the best possible ground communications.


Sorry


----------



## doctor j

steveken said:


> hmmm, n2yo doesn't show d11 for me anymore. called object a again and I had to manually find the sat and double click it for info to come up. weird.


I think they were actually using the Object B TLE set as Directv 11.
This is the Block-DM upper stage that has an identical initial GTO.
Should eventually decay given low perigee.

Probably realized mistake and are using correct TLE's for updates.

Spack-track still has 3/19/08 launch objects as Obect A & Object B.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

Couple points for the some of the overnight posts:

First - there's a lot of testing that can be done before the vehicle is in GSO. On board computers and control systems can be checked out, propulsion and navigational systems as well - star trackers, inertial measurement units, etc. can all be exercised and calibrated to pre-launch estimates. The main transponders might not be fully tested but a lot of other comm systems can be tested and verified - especially those used for tracking and control purposes. Additionally, spacecraft thermal control systems, battery charging and voltage control systems, etc. can all be tested and verified.

As for extending the solar arrays - it's true there's no air to speak of in orbit, but there are serious dynamic effects with the arrays fully deployed. They are by no means rigid and will flap and oscillate quite a bit when the spacecraft is subject to acceleration - that's another very good reason to do the orbital maneuvers in small chunks of relatively low thrust. If you want an example of this, Google around or hit YouTube and look for videos of the ISS or Hubble solar arrays being deployed and/or retracted. You can see the vibrations they are subject to. They are very lightweight and very flexible but not very durable.

And finally, for HP calculators used as backups: that was for the ASTP - Apollo-Soyuz Test Project, the very last mission of the Apollo program, following two Earth orbit missions (Apollo 7 and 9), two lunar orbit missions (Apollo 8 and 10), six lunar landings (Apollo 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, and 17), one failed/aborted landing mission (Apollo 13), and three Skylab missions. So if you count use on one out of 15 manned Apollo missions, I guess you could say that an HP calculator was used as a backup to the Apollo Guidance Computer.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> You can see the vibrations they are subject to. They are very lightweight and very flexible but not very durable ...


Yep, that was the question. During one of these apogee thrusts, thought maybe it was safer to wait before spreading the wings. Wasn't sure what else they'd wait on.


----------



## MIMOTech

Still have my TI SR-10 and still works with AA batteries. Any updates on TLE's beyond TLE 10?


----------



## flyingtigerfan

kentuck1163 said:


> No atmosphere in space - so, no drag.


There are certainly other forces to be exposed to besides atmospheric drag. I wouldn't want those critters extended while doing much in the way of maneuvering.


----------



## Carl Spock

Off topic, but not too far.

With all of you checking for changing orbits, is any work being done with AMC-14? After the failure of the third stage, initially AMC-14 was announced a loss, then maybe it could be salvaged but with a reduced life, and then that was called impossible. I've searched and found nothing other that its status is being "evaluated."

Edit: Never mind. I found the answer. It still is being evaluated and they might send it around the Moon!


----------



## Sixto

Carl Spock said:


> Off topic, but not too far.
> 
> With all of you checking for changing orbits, is any work being done with AMC-14? After the failure of the third stage, initially AMC-14 was announced a loss, then maybe it could be salvaged but with a reduced life, and then that was called impossible. I've searched and found nothing other that its status is being "evaluated."


AMC-14 thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=122797

Not much new news. There are regular TLE's but not many analyzing them ...


----------



## Sixto

MIMOTech said:


> Still have my TI SR-10 and still works with AA batteries. Any updates on TLE's beyond TLE 10?


TLE #10 is the latest released, at this minute in time.


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> AMC-14 thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=122797
> 
> Not much new news. There are regular TLE's but not many analyzing them ...


Latest TLE shows Apogee 24438 Km much lower than 35786 needed for GeoTransfer to Geo Stationary Orbit.
Incline 49 degrees
Perigee 769 Km.

No one that I'm been able to find has said that the usage of onboard fuel to get to GSO will leave enough station life to recover much of the sat's cost.
That means insurance recovery may be financial decision to do.

Probably doesn't need to be decided rightaway thus probably quite a while before any official decisions IMHO.

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

doctor j said:


> Latest TLE shows Apogee 24438 Km much lower than 35786 needed for GeoTransfer to Geo Stationary Orbit.
> Incline 49 degrees
> Perigee 769 Km.


I think you just made the same mistake I did, either believing n2yo or using 32709 instead of 32708



Code:


1 32708U 08011A   08087.59130116 -.00000181  00000-0  00000+0 0   103
2 32708 048.9785 168.0001 7087612 358.7531 000.2499 02.25662051   319

Epoch (UTC): 	2:11:28 PM, Thursday, March 27, 2008
Eccentricity: 	0.7087612
Inclination: 	048.9785°
Perigee Height: 	772 km
Apogee Height: 	35,576 km
Right Ascension of Ascending Node: 	168.0001°
Argument of Perigee: 	358.7531°
Revolutions per Day: 	02.25662051
Mean Anomaly at Epoch: 	000.2499°
Orbit Number at Epoch: 	31


----------



## steveken

TLE 11 is up. 7392x40992km. Perigee is getting a LOT higher. 



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08087.70430626 -.00000186  00000-0  10000-3 0   111
2 32729 001.1610 355.5299 5495573 191.7578 160.9142 01.62429184   176

Here is what it looks like.


----------



## ctaranto

Wow. Appears to be a vast difference from previous TLEs.

-Craig


----------



## dms1

ctaranto said:


> Wow. Appears to be a vast difference from previous TLEs.
> 
> -Craig


Yep - pretty significant burn at apogee there. I would guess they have now completed whatever initial testing and maneuvering they had to do and we will now see the orbit circularized by a series of further similar burns.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> TLE 11 is up ...


Cool ... updated post #2 ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE11)
1 32729U 08013A   08087.70430626 -.00000186  00000-0  10000-3 0   111
2 32729 001.1610 355.5299 5495573 191.7578 160.9142 01.62429184   176

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-27-2008 16:54:12
Orbit # at Epoch	17
Inclination		1.161
RA of A. Node		355.530
Eccentricity		0.5495573
Argument of Perigee	191.758
Revs per day		1.62429184
Period			14h 46m 32s (886.53 min)
Semi-major axis		30 570 km
Perigee x Apogee	7 392 x 40 992 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		160.914
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	11 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22):   468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42):   468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours, at 7.0 days)
TLE# 8 (03-26-2008 14:30:15):   469 x 40 742 km (+.1 hours, at 6.9 days)
TLE# 7 (03-26-2008 14:24:00):   474 x 40,738 km (+33.7 hours, at 6.9 days)
TLE# 6 (03-25-2008 04:40:59):   463 x 38,996 km (+11.9 hours, at 5.5 days)
TLE# 5 (03-24-2008 16:48:00):   473 x 38,991 km (+11.3 hours, at 5.0 days)
TLE# 4 (03-24-2008 05:32:23):   463 x 36,484 km (+87.6 hours, at 4.5 days)
TLE# 3 (03-20-2008 13:54:34):   268 x 36,474 km (+8.9 hours, at .9 days)
TLE# 2 (03-20-2008 04:58:00):   273 x 36,476 km (+11.5 hours from previous TLE, at .5 days)
TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29):   243 x 36,067 km (Original)


----------



## doctor j

tuff bob said:


> I think you just made the same mistake I did, either believing n2yo or using 32709 instead of 32708
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32708U 08011A   08087.59130116 -.00000181  00000-0  00000+0 0   103
> 2 32708 048.9785 168.0001 7087612 358.7531 000.2499 02.25662051   319
> 
> Epoch (UTC): 	2:11:28 PM, Thursday, March 27, 2008
> Eccentricity: 	0.7087612
> Inclination: 	048.9785°
> Perigee Height: 	772 km
> Apogee Height: 	35,576 km
> Right Ascension of Ascending Node: 	168.0001°
> Argument of Perigee: 	358.7531°
> Revolutions per Day: 	02.25662051
> Mean Anomaly at Epoch: 	000.2499°
> Orbit Number at Epoch: 	31


I was using N2Yo to make a quick check.
Statement re salvage status of AMC-14 IMHO stay the same.

Doctor j


----------



## HoTat2

Yeah;

I'd say a definitely significant move toward cicularization here. Eccentricity down to approx. .55 and orbital period to approx. 1.62


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Sixto, If you will, could you please post the link for the information above. Thank you!!!


----------



## doctor j

dms1 said:


> Yep - pretty significant burn at apogee there. I would guess they have now completed whatever initial testing and maneuvering they had to do and we will now see the orbit circularized by a series of further similar burns.


As Sixto has reported Directv 10 ans Spaceway 1&2 may significant change toward GSO by circularizing (decreased eccentricty about 10 to 14 days into flight.
Unfortunately those and esp. spaceways took a longer while to get to ther final position.

Eccentricity .5 is a significant change from.7 as is visually seen above.

Doctor j


----------



## dms1

doctor j said:


> As Sixto has reported Directv 10 ans Spaceway 1&2 may significant change toward GSO by circularizing (decreased eccentricty about 10 to 14 days into flight.
> Unfortunately those and esp. spaceways took a longer while to get to ther final position.
> 
> Eccentricity .5 is a significant change from.7 as is visually seen above.
> 
> Doctor j


Wasn't DirecTV 10 a high latitude launch though, meaning that significant maneuvering was needed to reduce the inclination to zero? Hopefully D11 can be parked a lot quicker.


----------



## doctor j

Code:


AMC-14 
Single tracking
 Track it now! 
Multi tracking
   Add it on your tracking list  
 Your tracking list 


Your tracking list is empty 
 
NORAD ID: 32708 
Int'l Code: 2008-011A 
Perigee: 769 km 
Apogee: 26438 km 
Inclination: 49.2° 
Period: 468.5 min 
Launch date: 2008-03-14 
Source: United States (US) 
Comments:

This is what N2YO has on ther site but checking TLE obviously wrong.

Incline of 49 degrees is a big hurdle to get to GSO

Doctor j


----------



## lwilli201

The next TLE should confirm this drastic change. I would have thought that the changes would be more subtle.


----------



## Steve615

kentuck1163 said:


> No atmosphere in space - so, no drag.


Interesting brief article about this at the following link.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/top10_global_warming_results-1.html

Once the page loads,you should see a list of numbers counting down from 10 to 1.Click on the number 4.You will see a brief article about "speedier satellites".


----------



## machavez00

D11 is listed as "Object A"
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729


----------



## Sixto

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Sixto, If you will, could you please post the link for the information above. Thank you!!!


The D11 info is in post#2.

The D10 and Spaceway-1 info was from taking the D10 and Spaceway-1 TLE's and loading them into Orbitron and looking at the first 50-100 changes.

As mentioned earlier, it took D10 about 11 days to get somewhat circular but 40 days to get exactly to Geo, and a couple of days to lock in at 102.5 degrees.

And yep, as dms1 just mentioned, it did not take off from the equator, so D11 will be different.

For Spaceway-1, which did use SeaLaunch, it took much longer, but Spaceway-1 had other problems which took months, so Spaceway-1 is not a good reference.

Looked at D10 and Spaceway-1 because figured that it might be best to learn from the past to gauge the future.

Could also look at other SeaLaunch's to use as a reference.

Was happy to see all the D11 change today with the latest TLE.

Will always keep post#2 up-to-date and with historical tracking (as best I can) ...


----------



## Halo

Interesting that Inclination increased from 0.1309 to 1.1610.
I wonder if it's intentional or the result of a not quite perfect apogee burn?

Figure that to raise perigee from 468 KM to 7,392 KM is probably a pretty long burn time, so even a tiny amount of misalignment is magnified. Still, 1 degree of inclination isn't much.


----------



## davemayo

Sixto said:


> Will always keep post#2 up-to-date and with historical tracking (as best I can) ...


Thanks, Sixto, for keeping us all up to date.


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> I think they were actually using the Object B TLE set as Directv 11.
> This is the Block-DM upper stage that has an identical initial GTO.
> Should eventually decay given low perigee.
> 
> Probably realized mistake and are using correct TLE's for updates.
> 
> Spack-track still has 3/19/08 launch objects as Obect A & Object B.
> 
> Doctor j


2nyo was always correctly using 32729 (Object A) for D11, but for some reason it's now being identified only as Object A instead of D11 on their web site.


----------



## Sixto

#12 ... pretty much the same ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE12)
1 32729U 08013A   08088.70000000 -.00000186  00000-0  00000+0 0   127
2 32729 001.2670 358.0570 5496277 189.3290 023.2290 01.62460226   187 

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-28-2008 16:48:00
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination		1.267
RA of A. Node		358.057
Eccentricity		0.5496277
Argument of Perigee	189.329
Revs per day		1.62460226
Period			14h 46m 22s (886.37 min)
Semi-major axis		30 566 km
Perigee x Apogee	7 388 x 40 988 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		23.229
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	12 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00): 7,388 x 40 988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22):   468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42):   468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours, at 7.0 days)
TLE# 8 (03-26-2008 14:30:15):   469 x 40 742 km (+.1 hours, at 6.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has all of the history


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> Couple points for the some of the overnight posts:
> 
> First - there's a lot of testing that can be done before the vehicle is in GSO. On board computers and control systems can be checked out, propulsion and navigational systems as well - star trackers, inertial measurement units, etc. can all be exercised and calibrated to pre-launch estimates. The main transponders might not be fully tested but a lot of other comm systems can be tested and verified - especially those used for tracking and control purposes. Additionally, spacecraft thermal control systems, battery charging and voltage control systems, etc. can all be tested and verified.
> 
> As for extending the solar arrays - it's true there's no air to speak of in orbit, but there are serious dynamic effects with the arrays fully deployed. They are by no means rigid and will flap and oscillate quite a bit when the spacecraft is subject to acceleration - that's another very good reason to do the orbital maneuvers in small chunks of relatively low thrust. If you want an example of this, Google around or hit YouTube and look for videos of the ISS or Hubble solar arrays being deployed and/or retracted. You can see the vibrations they are subject to. They are very lightweight and very flexible but not very durable....


But isn't the satellite's electrical system on battery power during it's GTO phase? Therefore can't only only a limited amount actual "testing" be done before the craft can fully deploy its solar panels at a GSO station?


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> But isn't the satellite's electrical system on battery power during it's GTO phase? Therefore can't only only a limited amount actual "testing" be done before the craft can fully deploy its solar panels at a GSO station?


Operational testing of the main transponders, sure. But operational testing of the satellite systems, however, is part and parcel of what they have to do. None of the things I mentioned require great amounts of electrical power. Whether they perform all the maneuvers on battery power or do a small, partial deploy of the solar arrays first (as I suspect), I do not know.


----------



## cartrivision

Here is a view from above the north pole of 3 of D11's significantly different orbital patterns... TLE-1 (first), TLE-10, and TLE-11 (latest), along with a TLE of D10 for comaprison to a geostationary orbit.


----------



## moonman

FCC approves DirecTV's Satellite changes........
The FCC International Bureau's Policy Branch granted DirecTV Enterprises request to relocate the Spaceway 2 satellite from 99.2 degrees West Longitude (WL) to 99.115 degrees WL and operate on Ka-band frequencies 18.3-18.8 GHz (downlink), 19.7-20.2 GHz (downlink), 28.35-28.60 GHz (uplink) and 29.25-30.00 GHz uplink). The FCC also granted DirecTV's request to move DirecTV 11 from 99.200 degrees WL to 99.225 degrees WL and operate it at that location on Ka-band frequencies 18.3-18.8 GHz (downlink), 19.7-20.2 GHz (downlink), 28.35-28.60 GHz (uplink) and 29.25-30.00 GHz uplink). This information is from FCC Report SAT-00509.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-608A1.pdf


----------



## TomF

Sixto said:


> #12 ... pretty much the same ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE12)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08088.70000000 -.00000186  00000-0  00000+0 0   127
> 2 32729 001.2670 358.0570 5496277 189.3290 023.2290 01.62460226   187
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		03-28-2008 16:48:00
> Orbit # at Epoch	18
> Inclination		1.267
> RA of A. Node		358.057
> Eccentricity		0.5496277
> Argument of Perigee	189.329
> Revs per day		1.62460226
> Period			14h 46m 22s (886.37 min)
> Semi-major axis		30 566 km
> Perigee x Apogee	7 388 x 40 988 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		23.229
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	12 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00): 7,388 x 40 988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
> TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
> TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22):   468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)
> TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42):   468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours, at 7.0 days)
> TLE# 8 (03-26-2008 14:30:15):   469 x 40 742 km (+.1 hours, at 6.9 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has all of the history


I've been following this thread since the launch and I think that I've pretty much got it all figured out. I'm using n2yo, ephemeris, and I've signed up for an account with Space-Track.

I have a some questions:

- Sixto, where do you get the information above? I can't find it in this format at either n2yo or Space-Track.
- I figured out how to get all of the TLEs at Space-Track by searching by epoch starting with the launch date. Is this where everyone is getting the latest TLEs and determining when a new one is available?
- Anything else I'm missing?


----------



## Sixto

moonman said:


> FCC approves DirecTV's Satellite changes........
> The FCC International Bureau's Policy Branch granted DirecTV Enterprises request to relocate the Spaceway 2 satellite from 99.2 degrees West Longitude (WL) to 99.115 degrees WL and operate on Ka-band frequencies 18.3-18.8 GHz (downlink), 19.7-20.2 GHz (downlink), 28.35-28.60 GHz (uplink) and 29.25-30.00 GHz uplink). The FCC also granted DirecTV's request to move DirecTV 11 from 99.200 degrees WL to 99.225 degrees WL and operate it at that location on Ka-band frequencies 18.3-18.8 GHz (downlink), 19.7-20.2 GHz (downlink), 28.35-28.60 GHz (uplink) and 29.25-30.00 GHz uplink). This information is from FCC Report SAT-00509.
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-608A1.pdf


yep ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1515856&postcount=603 ... hadn't added the link ... will do ...


----------



## Sixto

TomF said:


> Sixto, where do you get the information above? I can't find it in this format at either n2yo or Space-Track.
> - I figured out how to get all of the TLEs at Space-Track by searching by epoch starting with the launch date. Is this where everyone is getting the latest TLEs and determining when a new one is available?
> - Anything else I'm missing?


The first section is just the actual TLE.

The 2nd section comes from Orbitron. You input the TLE. It outputs the info.

The 3rd section is the historical data manually formatted in a file/spreadsheet.

Then I stick it into post #2 (link below) whenever I get a chance, so that it's always easy to find ...


----------



## TomF

Sixto said:


> The first section is just the actual TLE.
> 
> The 2nd section comes from Orbitron. You input the TLE. It outputs the info.
> 
> The 3rd section is the historical data manually formatted in a file/spreadsheet.
> 
> Then I stick it into post #2 (link below) whenever I get a chance, so that it's always easy to find ...


Thanks!

I suspected that you compiled this info yourself. I forgot about Orbitron, I've got that too and I remember where this info is now.


----------



## doctor j

Code:


OBJECT A 
1 32729U 08013A   08088.70000000 -.00000186  00000-0  00000+0 0   127
2 32729 001.2670 358.0570 5496277 189.3290 023.2290 01.62460226   187

Name	DIRECTV_11_12
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-03-28 16:48:00
Orbit # at Epoch	18
Inclination	1.267
RA of A. Node	358.057
Eccentricity	0.5496277
Argument of Perigee	189.329
Revs per day	1.62460226
Period	14h 46m 22s (886.37 min)
Semi-major axis	30 566 km
Perigee x Apogee	7 388 x 40 988 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	23.229
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	12 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

DIRECTV_11_12
Lon	149.3450° W
Lat	0.4574° S
Alt (km)	33 883.870
Azm	255.1°
Elv	11.5°
RA	21h 55m 54s
Decl	-5° 40' 57"
Range (km)	38 508.511
RRt (km/s)	1.296
Vel (km/s)	2.600
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	99.4° (70)
TA	148.7°
Orbit #	18
Mag (illum)	? (8%)
Constellation	Aqr

Mommie:
are we there yet??

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

doctor j said:


> Mommie:
> are we there yet??


nah, but we only got about 12,000 miles left now :lol:


----------



## Tom_S

tuff bob said:


> nah, but we only got about 12,000 miles left now :lol:


In space terms that's known as a TAD.


----------



## MattWarner

Tom_S said:


> In space terms that's known as a TAD.


I got the reference! LOL

-Matt


----------



## dms1

Tom_S said:


> In space terms that's known as a TAD.


I'm sure that authoritative documentary of space travel Airplane II defined a tad as 250000 miles, so we're actually out by a mere half of a decitad.


----------



## Sixto

Just looking at TLE's for Echostar X. SeaLaunch 2/15/2006. Wow, got mostly circular in 7 days, then a few more days before it was perfect.


Code:


02-15-2006 22:13:56    1 735 x 35 756 km
02-16-2006 09:13:07    1 708 x 35 684 km
02-17-2006 06:59:13    4 124 x 35 676 km
02-18-2006 06:18:38    8 139 x 35 675 km
02-20-2006 00:06:53   15 409 x 35 669 km
02-21-2006 23:23:54   26 259 x 35 672 km
02-22-2006 23:09:15   35 688 x 35 769 km

Guess there's many paths and speeds to get there ...


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Just looking at TLE's for Echostar X. SeaLaunch 2/15/2006. Wow, got mostly circular in 7 days, then a few more days before it was perfect.
> 
> Guess there's many paths and speeds to get there ...


sometimes theres also commercial pressures, with D11 they have the "luxury" on not needing any more HD CONUS bandwidth until September, so they can take their time and minimize the amount of fuel used to get the satellite into GSO


----------



## P Smith

You can't reduce amount of burned fuel when it's doing slow. At GSO it will be same.


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> You can't reduce amount of burned fuel when it's doing slow. At GSO it will be same.


at some point they will be in GSO and be left to sort out the longitude - which takes fuel. If you have the luxury of time, like apparently we do with D11, the entry into GSO can be fired at a plum time to be as close as possible to the final orbit location. If you were rushing, you might be willing to use more fuel and choose a sooner but further away time to get to GSO - you'll end up at the final location quicker (less orbits) but you've used more fuel


----------



## PoitNarf

Guys, the images comparing the different orbits of each TLE are fantastic! They are really helping me understand the whole orbital insertion process. I hope one of you compiles all of this stuff at the end and puts together a little video showing the trip from launch to geostationary orbit, because that would be beyond cool


----------



## inkahauts

tuff bob said:


> sometimes theres also commercial pressures, with D11 they have the "luxury" on not needing any more HD CONUS bandwidth until September, so they can take their time and minimize the amount of fuel used to get the satellite into GSO


There is no way they get this Sat to orbit and don't turn it on until September unless something goes very wrong. They will fire this puppy up and we will see signals in April or May....


----------



## P Smith

tuff bob said:


> at some point they will be in GSO and be left to sort out the longitude - which takes fuel. If you have the luxury of time, like apparently we do with D11, the entry into GSO can be fired at a plum time to be as close as possible to the final orbit location. If you were rushing, you might be willing to use more fuel and choose a sooner but further away time to get to GSO - you'll end up at the final location quicker (less orbits) but you've used more fuel


Sorry, you use very loose wording or I don't get it - by orbital mechanic you must deliver an object from one point(orbit) to other, it will require same amount energy/mass regardless how you'll divide it - one impulse or many or huge number of micro-impulses; all of them have one point to fire - there is no rush method to reach target point/orbit from random location ( it will bring the sat out of GSO forever). Such 'rush' condition is pure theoretical speculation, and if speak of it, it will cost you double price (fuel) as you can imagine about such maneuver requirement.


----------



## inkahauts

P Smith said:


> Sorry, you use very loose wording or I don't get it - by orbital mechanic you must deliver an object from one point(orbit) to other, it will require same amount energy/mass regardless how you'll divide it - one impulse or many or huge number of micro-impulses; all of them have one point to fire - there is no rush method to reach target point/orbit from random location ( it will bring the sat out of GSO forever). Such 'rush' condition is pure theoretical speculation, and if speak of it, it will cost you double price (fuel) as you can imagine about such maneuver requirement.


I must say that to a certain extent, i am somewhat lost when it comes to how you get a sat into GSO, although I do understand what you are saying. My only question to you is, Is it possible for them to use smaller amounts of thrust in conjunction with Earths gravity to reach orbit slower than using a larger burn and trying to escape the lower elliptical orbit faster and in a different path? Or to put it another way, The sat has a vector and speed right now, and rather than adding thrust in say, the same direction as the vector the sat is traveling in at any given moment to get it closer to its gso, couldn't they use smaller thrust going in a differnt direction than its current trajectory to use the earths gravity to sling it to the gso location. (Isn't that part of the theory for swinging AMC-14 around the moon?) Also, if they burn their thrusters longer than needed, couldn't they get the sat their faster, as long as they did a reverse thrust, or something of that nature to put on the brakes faster, so to speak?


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> Sorry, you use very loose wording or I don't get it - by orbital mechanic you must deliver an object from one point(orbit) to other, it will require same amount energy/mass regardless how you'll divide it.


correct. but once it is in GSO, it takes fuel to move it to 99.2 W. At different orbits, moving it into GSO will mean it ends up at a different location. If you can wait then you can wait for the most opportune orbit to transfer to GSO near 99.2W, if you are in a hurry you might be willing to get it to GSO on an earlier orbit, but you'll be further away from 99.2W, so you need more fuel to get it the 99.2W location


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> correct. but once it is in GSO, it takes fuel to move it to 99.2 W. At different orbits, moving it into GSO will mean it ends up at a different location. If you can wait then you can wait for the most opportune orbit to transfer to GSO near 99.2W, if you are in a hurry you might be willing to get it to GSO on an earlier orbit, but you'll be further away from 99.2W, so you need more fuel to get it the 99.2W location


It's true that if you can insert the satellite directly into GSO at the correct longitude then you've saved yourself a maneuver. However, if you do have to move it, the distance moved doesn't necessary affect the fuel requirement. To move a GSO satellite you raise or lower it's orbit slightly, wait for Earth to rotate to the correct point and then put it back again. Assuming you are not time-bound you can move it by as much as want using the same set of thruster burns. Of course, if you want to move a long way in a hurry then you will need to use extra fuel to change the orbit by more to make the apparent rotation greater.

(You may be falling into the trap of thinking about moving things around on Earth, where friction is an ever-present force that must be overcome and therefore the energy needed to move something depends to a large extent on the distance it is moved.)


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> It's true that if you can insert the satellite directly into GSO at the correct longitude then you've saved yourself a maneuver. However, if you do have to move it, the distance moved doesn't necessary affect the fuel requirement. To move a GSO satellite you raise or lower it's orbit slightly, wait for Earth to rotate to the correct point and then put it back again. Assuming you are not time-bound you can move it by as much as want using the same set of thruster burns. Of course, if you want to move a long way in a hurry then you will need to use extra fuel to change the orbit by more to make the apparent rotation greater.
> 
> (You may be falling into the trap of thinking about moving things around on Earth, where friction is an ever-present force that must be overcome and therefore the energy needed to move something depends to a large extent on the distance it is moved.)


Exactly the point I was about to make. Migrating a satellite from one GSO longitudinal slot to another, irrespective of relative position, does not require any more or less fuel unless one wishes to achieve the repositioning at a faster pace.

Therefore requiring one to have to move the satellite into ever higher or lesser orbital altitudes beyond or inside GSO's, to allow the earth's rotation to either bring the satellite's newly desired orbital location under the under it quicker. Or to enable the satellite to orbit the earth faster to "catch up" with its new orbital slot.

Now though of course, it will require more fuel to restore the satellite to the proper GSO altitude once it reaches that point.


----------



## HoTat2

inkahauts said:


> I must say that to a certain extent, i am somewhat lost when it comes to how you get a sat into GSO, although I do understand what you are saying. My only question to you is, Is it possible for them to use smaller amounts of thrust in conjunction with Earths gravity to reach orbit slower than using a larger burn and trying to escape the lower elliptical orbit faster and in a different path? Or to put it another way, The sat has a vector and speed right now, and rather than adding thrust in say, the same direction as the vector the sat is traveling in at any given moment to get it closer to its gso, couldn't they use smaller thrust going in a differnt direction than its current trajectory to use the earths gravity to sling it to the gso location. (Isn't that part of the theory for swinging AMC-14 around the moon?) Also, if they burn their thrusters longer than needed, couldn't they get the sat their faster, as long as they did a reverse thrust, or something of that nature to put on the brakes faster, so to speak?


If I'm understanding the fundamentals of orbital mechanics for artificial earth orbiting satellites correctly, it seems to me that the only "minimum energy trajectory" to eventually achieve a GSO is from a prograde equatorial GTO. Which is the approximate one D11 is already in. Anything else would require more fuel (or energy) to attain the same results.


----------



## Sixto

TLE#13 ... about the same ... only 5.3 hours later ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE13)
1 32729U 08013A   08088.92103515 -.00000186  00000-0  10000-3 0   132
2 32729 001.2883 357.8642 5496764 189.5495 152.4740 01.62461559   196

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-28-2008 22:06:17
Orbit # at Epoch	19
Inclination		1.288
RA of A. Node		357.864
Eccentricity		0.5496764
Argument of Perigee	189.550
Revs per day		1.62461559
Period			14h 46m 21s (886.35 min)
Semi-major axis		30 566 km
Perigee x Apogee	7 386 x 40 989 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		152.474
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	13 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17): 7 386 x 40 989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00): 7,388 x 40 988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22):   468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42):   468 x 40,742 km (+1.9 hours, at 7.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Sorry, you use very loose wording or I don't get it - by orbital mechanic you must deliver an object from one point(orbit) to other, it will require same amount energy/mass regardless how you'll divide it - one impulse or many or huge number of micro-impulses; all of them have one point to fire - there is no rush method to reach target point/orbit from random location ( it will bring the sat out of GSO forever). Such 'rush' condition is pure theoretical speculation, and if speak of it, it will cost you double price (fuel) as you can imagine about such maneuver requirement.


Not quite true. If you have the luxury of time, you can give the satellite a very light push and let it drift very slowly to the final orbital slot and only have to negate that very light push with a very light adjustment.

If you are in a hurry, you can give it a big push and then have to negate that big push.

What tuff bob is correctly saying is that DIRECTV 11's current orbits will at some point in time cross the optimum position for a GSO burn and be at the correct orbital slot.

And at other times DIRECTV 11's current orbits will be optimum to put DIRECTV 11 at a very wrong spot. Such a GSO burn would then require another burn to drift the satellite to 99.2°, thus using more fuel.

So if you have time, the best way is to let gravity and the orbit work for you. And all the while you can be testing various subsystems.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## seern

I just looked at the Ajax tracking site and D11 is no longer listed. Any clues?


----------



## Darkscream

seern said:


> I just looked at the Ajax tracking site and D11 is no longer listed. Any clues?


It's listed as "Object A ". I don't know why however.


----------



## Sixto

seern said:


> I just looked at the Ajax tracking site and D11 is no longer listed. Any clues?


It's still there but back to being called OBJECT A again. http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

TLE is still #13 from Friday. The other site has the orbital view: http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT


----------



## mrcon0728

I was looking at my signal strength's today for the different sats and found that 99(s) had signal strengths on transponders 1,3,5,6. Does this mean we will start seeing things on the D11 Sat in the near future, or is this just testing?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

mrcon0728 said:


> I was looking at my signal strength's today for the different sats and found that 99(s) had signal strengths on transponders 1,3,5,6. Does this mean we will start seeing things on the D11 Sat in the near future, or is this just testing?


99s is a spot beam SAT (it is Spaceway 1 or 2 I don't remember what one) and it has been up there for a long time now. D11 will be 99c.


----------



## RAD

mrcon0728 said:


> I was looking at my signal strength's today for the different sats and found that 99(s) had signal strengths on transponders 1,3,5,6. Does this mean we will start seeing things on the D11 Sat in the near future, or is this just testing?


They're probably coming from Spaceway 2.


----------



## P Smith

BMoreRavens said:


> 99s is a spot beam SAT (it is Spaceway 1 or 2 I don't remember what one) and it has been up there for a long time now. D11 will be 99c.


http://www.lyngsat.com/america.html


----------



## Sixto

mrcon0728 said:


> I was looking at my signal strength's today for the different sats and found that 99(s) had signal strengths on transponders 1,3,5,6. Does this mean we will start seeing things on the D11 Sat in the near future, or is this just testing?


D11 will be 99 (c) ... will be a while (weeks) ... lots of details in this thread ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

I believe transponders 1-6 on 99°(s) are still all from Spaceway 2. When you start seeing new transponders appear on the map, then you'll have something getting ready for D11.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> D11 will be 99 (c) ... will be a while (weeks) ... lots of details in this thread ...


D11 has 50 some spotbeam transponders, I think we'll also see it on 99°(s) too. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

TLE#14 ... about the same ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE14)
1 32729U 08013A   08090.15072004 -.00000187  00000-0  10000-3 0   140
2 32729 001.2780 357.7387 5496655 189.7817 151.6626 01.62462628   211

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-30-2008 03:37:02
Orbit # at Epoch	21
Inclination		1.278
RA of A. Node		357.739
Eccentricity		0.5496655
Argument of Perigee	189.782
Revs per day		1.62462628
Period			14h 46m 21s (886.35 min)
Semi-major axis		30 566 km
Perigee x Apogee	7 387 x 40 988 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		151.663
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	14 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02): 7 387 x 40 988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17): 7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00): 7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22):   468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> D11 has 50 some spotbeam transponders, I think we'll also see it on 99°(s) too.


Of course!


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02): 7 387 x 40 988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
> TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17): 7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
> TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00): 7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
> TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12): 7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
> TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22): 468 x 40,744 km (+12.2 hours, at 7.5 days)


The TLE for after the burn was closer to to ultimate goal than the current TLE. I hope they're just tightening up the calculations.


----------



## Blurayfan

Sixto said:


> It's still there but back to being called OBJECT A again. http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
> 
> TLE is still #13 from Friday. The other site has the orbital view: http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT


http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729 is once again listing the Satellite as DirecTV-11. Too bad they haven't updated the TLE to 14 yet.


----------



## cartrivision

DVDKingdom said:


> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729 is once again listing the Satellite as DirecTV-11. Too bad they haven't updated the TLE to 14 yet.


TLE 14 isn't significantly different from 11, 12, and 13.


----------



## HoTat2

Tom Robertson said:


> D11 has 50 some spotbeam transponders, I think we'll also see it on 99°(s) too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom





Sixto said:


> Of course!


I assume the way it works is that once D11 officially joins the fleet and becomes operational. The new configuration data for it will be placed in the "System Information" (SI) data stream which emanates from a channel somewhere at 101. This will tell the HD DVR receivers that 99(c) now exist, and which transponders to be assigned as active and which as "N/A."

Also, the new SI data will reconfigure the receiver's current 99(s) active-"N/A" Tp. signal strength list to indicate the agregate spotbeams from new D11/Spaceway 2 combination. Which should be evidenced by more than only the six transponders showing as active at present for 99(s).


----------



## azarby

cartrivision said:


> TLE 14 isn't significantly different from 11, 12, and 13.


Not very surprising since it is the weekend and the Boeing team wants it off just like the rest of us. Also remember with approximately 1.5 revolutions per day, ther are at the most one or two chances to make any significant orbit corrections.

Bob


----------



## Sixto

D11 must be jealous today.

D10 is doing a brilliant job of beaming lots of crystal clear HD baseball!

Just browsing through the guide, there's a ton of HD sports all going on at the same time right now ... MLB, NBA, NHL ...

Geez, that's alot of bandwidth besides the 24x7 HD channels.

And D11 is salivating to chip in ...


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> D11 must be jealous today.
> 
> D10 is doing a brilliant job of beaming lots of crystal clear HD baseball!
> 
> Just browsing through the guide, there's a ton of HD sports all going on at the same time right now ... MLB, NBA, NHL ...
> 
> Geez, that's alot of bandwidth besides the 24x7 HD channels.
> 
> And D11 is salivating to chip in ...


and I thought I saw D11 on the prime meridian today.


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> D11 must be jealous today.
> 
> D10 is doing a brilliant job of beaming lots of crystal clear HD baseball!
> 
> Just browsing through the guide, there's a ton of HD sports all going on at the same time right now ... MLB, NBA, NHL ...
> 
> Geez, that's alot of bandwidth besides the 24x7 HD channels.
> 
> And D11 is salivating to chip in ...


Check out the HD PPV channels, they're all showing upcoming... no movies currently being shown.


----------



## Sixto

TLE#15 ... Up, Up, and Away!



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE15)
1 32729U 08013A   08091.85000000 -.00000148  00000-0  10000-3 0   153
2 32729 000.8090 355.0340 3329755 196.6570 296.1840 01.29290983   238

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-31-2008 20:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	23
Inclination		0.809
RA of A. Node		355.034
Eccentricity		0.3329755
Argument of Perigee	196.657
Revs per day		1.29290983
Period			18h 33m 46s (1113.77 min)
Semi-major axis		35 592 km
Perigee x Apogee	17 363 x 41 066 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		296.184
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	15 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00): 17,363 x 41 066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02):  7,387 x 40 988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17):  7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00):  7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12):  7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Check out the HD PPV channels, they're all showing upcoming... no movies currently being shown.


Yep, D11 will make that problem go away 

D11 to the rescue ... 10,000 kilometers at a time!


----------



## RAD

Sixto said:


> TLE#15 ... Up, Up, and Away!
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE15)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08091.85000000 -.00000148  00000-0  10000-3 0   153
> 2 32729 000.8090 355.0340 3329755 196.6570 296.1840 01.29290983   238
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		03-31-2008 20:24:00
> Orbit # at Epoch	23
> Inclination		0.809
> RA of A. Node		355.034
> Eccentricity		0.3329755
> Argument of Perigee	196.657
> Revs per day		1.29290983
> Period			18h 33m 46s (1113.77 min)
> Semi-major axis		35 592 km
> Perigee x Apogee	17 363 x 41 066 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		296.184
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	15 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00): 17,363 x 41 066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
> TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02):  7,387 x 40 988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
> TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17):  7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
> TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00):  7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
> TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12):  7,392 x 40,992 km (+12.2 hours, at 8.0 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


Did some put the peddle to the metal???


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> Did some put the peddle to the metal???


Very gently, of course.


----------



## Tiger62

RAD said:


> Did some put the peddle to the metal???


You probably meant "peddle to the meddle".


----------



## Sixto

TLE#16 ... another one ... about the same ... coming fast and furious ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE16)
1 32729U 08013A   08091.99226347 -.00000148  00000-0  10000-3 0   163
2 32729 000.8102 354.5657 3330283 197.1392 002.3790 01.29285194   232

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		03-31-2008 23:48:51
Orbit # at Epoch	23
Inclination		0.810
RA of A. Node		354.566
Eccentricity		0.3330283
Argument of Perigee	197.139
Revs per day		1.29285194
Period			18h 33m 48s (1113.80 min)
Semi-major axis		35 593 km
Perigee x Apogee	17 362 x 41 069 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		2.379
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	16 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51): 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00): 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02):  7,387 x 40,988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17):  7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00):  7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## moonman

The Eccentricity 0.3330283 is coming down faster now(orbit becoming more circular).


----------



## TomF

Tiger62 said:


> You probably meant "peddle to the meddle".


Uh, isn't it "pedal to the metal"? As in push the gas pedal to the metal (floorboard)?

Or as my 1965 driver training instructor used to call the gas pedal/accelerator, the "foot feed".


----------



## sat2631

Here is the change from TLE #14 and #15 along with D10.


----------



## syphix

sat2631 said:


> Here is the change from TLE #14 and #15 along with D10.


Thanks...that REALLY helps see how far D11's come...and how far it has to go before "parking"!


----------



## azarby

Sixto said:


> TLE#16 ... another one ... about the same ... coming fast and furious ...
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE16)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08091.99226347 -.00000148  00000-0  10000-3 0   163
> 2 32729 000.8102 354.5657 3330283 197.1392 002.3790 01.29285194   232
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		03-31-2008 23:48:51
> Orbit # at Epoch	23
> Inclination		0.810
> RA of A. Node		354.566
> Eccentricity		0.3330283
> Argument of Perigee	197.139
> Revs per day		1.29285194
> Period			18h 33m 48s (1113.80 min)
> Semi-major axis		35 593 km
> Perigee x Apogee	17 362 x 41 069 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		2.379
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	16 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51): 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
> TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00): 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
> TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02):  7,387 x 40,988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
> TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17):  7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)
> TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00):  7,388 x 40,988 km (+23.9 hours, at 9.0 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


Looks like a refinement in the readings for the move prior to 15. Sometimes it takes a while to get more accurate numbers at that distance.

bob


----------



## lwilli201

sat2631 said:


> Here is the change from TLE #14 and #15 along with D10.


Thanks sat2631. I love show and tell. All those numbers give me a headache. :lol:


----------



## drx792

hey sixto when you get a chance make sure you take the possibility of having Disney HD and all that new HD launching Wednesday on D11 from your post on page 1.

man D10 can handle a lot!!!


----------



## Tiger62

TomF said:


> Uh, isn't it "pedal to the metal"? As in push the gas pedal to the metal (floorboard)?


Of course it is! Emoticons are your friend.


----------



## Sixto

drx792 said:


> hey sixto when you get a chance make sure you take the possibility of having Disney HD and all that new HD launching Wednesday on D11 from your post on page 1.
> 
> man D10 can handle a lot!!!


all changed.

D10 keeps lifting and lifting ... gonna be relieved when it's partner joins at 99 degrees.


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> all changed.
> 
> D10 keeps lifting and lifting ... gonna be relieved when it's partner joins at 99 degrees.


Yes D10 seems to be outdoing itself. Directv planned to put only about 75 nationals on D10. That number has been exceeded by a bunch which would mean that they are using transponders that were supposed to be spares. The delay in putting up D11 kind of forced the issue. When D11 is up and running, I can see some of the D10 nationals moving.


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> Yes D10 seems to be outdoing itself. Directv planned to put only about 75 nationals on D10. That number has been exceeded by a bunch which would mean that they are using transponders that were supposed to be spares. The delay in putting up D11 kind of forced the issue. When D11 is up and running, I can see some of the D10 nationals moving.


yep, I am curious how D10 is loading up the channels. Been a while since that lad had the gizmo that mapped the D10 transponders.

Seems like about 100 HD channels on D10 right now including the game-only and the West DNS.

Lots of balancing going on.

And PQ doesn't seem to be affected. Still looks great.

They probably only need another 30-60 days until D11 saves the day.


----------



## lwilli201

Sixto said:


> yep, I am curious how D10 is loading up the channels. Been a while since that lad had the gizmo that mapped the D10 transponders.
> 
> Seems like about 100 HD channels on D10 right now including the game-only and the West DNS.
> 
> Lots of balancing going on.
> 
> And PQ doesn't seem to be affected. Still looks great.
> 
> They probably only need another 30-60 days until D11 saves the day.


I think the total output capacity is dictated by power available to drive all those transponders. The baseline would be running the transponders designated as active. The spares are there to replace a bad transponder if necessary. Testing has probably shown that there is enough power to turn on some of the spares. There could also be extra power due to a possible reduction of spot beam transponders. The spot beam problem has not really been explained.


----------



## Jeremy W

lwilli201 said:


> Directv planned to put only about 75 nationals on D10.


When did they say that?


----------



## inkahauts

We know Directv is using 1 spare transponder on D10 right now, and from what I understand, they did take some of the PPV HD channels down today.... I am thinking all the Baseball had an effect on that... However, I am also thinking that Directv may have been underestating that 75 a little in the first place, just to through off competitors. Also, maybe some of that bandwidth is eventually going to be used for "other advanced services" as they have mentioned several times in the past, and that won't start happening until well after they have D11 up and running so they decided to use it for more HD and then will move it to D11 in a balancing later on....


----------



## inkahauts

Jeremy W said:


> When did they say that?


Yeah, actually they simply mentioned that D10 and D11 together would allow for 150 national channels, but they never actually said that was the extreme limit, and never said they would balance the load of those channels evenly between the two sats either... I keep remembering that one line... Other advanced services......


----------



## lwilli201

inkahauts said:


> Yeah, actually they simply mentioned that D10 and D11 together would allow for 150 national channels, but they never actually said that was the extreme limit, and never said they would balance the load of those channels evenly between the two sats either... I keep remembering that one line... Other advanced services......


Yes, that is what I was basing the 75 channels on. Since both sats are basically identical, if they announce 150 channel capacity from the two sats, a little math works out to a capacity of 75 channels for each.


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> Yes, that is what I was basing the 75 channels on. Since both sats are basically identical, if they announce 150 channel capacity from the two sats, a little math works out to a capacity of 75 channels for each.


Also the math worked ... 14 national transponders ... about 38mbps bandwidth per transponder ... about 8mbps per MPEG4 HD channel ... about 5 HD per transponder ... 70 channels at full bandwidth need ... all rough numbers with lots of variables.


----------



## Sixto

finally figured out how to make the pretty orbit picture and added to post #2 ... added D10 and D11 TLE# 16.


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> When did they say that?


September 2004.


----------



## Jeremy W

lwilli201 said:


> Yes, that is what I was basing the 75 channels on.


That's what I figured. I wouldn't say "DirecTV planned it" based on some independent math, though. We don't really know what their plans are or were for the actual channel loading on D10 or D11.


----------



## davemayo

Sixto said:


> finally figured out how to make the pretty orbit picture and added to post #2 ... added D10 and D11 TLE# 16.


I'm just seeing a red X where your picture should be. I don't know if that's just me though.


----------



## ziltomil

So tomorrow when ESPN News HD and the other disney HD channels launch how is D10 going to handle the load with MLB and the rest going on?


----------



## man_rob

ziltomil said:


> So tomorrow when ESPN News HD and the other disney HD channels launch how is D10 going to handle the load with MLB and the rest going on?


According to Earl, who is a very reliable source:



Earl Bonovich said:


> So what if it takes to September?
> So long as nothing is held up because of it...
> 
> It is very probable that they can now continue to fill up D10.... now that they know D11 is safely up there... and will know soon, on how it is performing.
> 
> So even if they don't "use" D11.... the fact that it is functional... is like know you have a 2nd hard drive ready to go.... but going to use most of the first 1, now that you don't have to worry about running out of space.
> 
> It should all be transparent to the users down here on earth.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> Also the math worked ... 14 national transponders ... about 38mbps bandwidth per transponder ... about 8mbps per MPEG4 HD channel ... about 5 HD per transponder ... 70 channels at full bandwidth need ... all rough numbers with lots of variables.


With D11 up does that mean we'll get full 1920x1080 resolution on all HD's?

Thanks


----------



## Tom_S

theratpatrol said:


> With D11 up does that mean we'll get full 1920x1080 resolution on all HD's?
> 
> Thanks


You will get what you get right now. All channels are at full resolution already. Some broadcast 1080i, some 720p. One thing you will not see is 1080p, nobody uses that yet anyway.


----------



## dms1

Tom_S said:


> One thing you will not see is 1080p, nobody uses that yet anyway.


True for the US, but I believe at least one of the new HD movie channels in the UK is 1080p.


----------



## ub1934

Tom_S said:


> You will get what you get right now. All channels are at full resolution already. Some broadcast 1080i, some 720p. One thing you will not see is 1080p, nobody uses that yet anyway.


 D is 1280 x 1080 or at the most 1440 x 1080 not 1920 x 180 or 1920 x 720 , D 11 is almost there


----------



## CKNAV

dms1 said:


> True for the US, but I believe at least one of the new HD movie channels in the UK is 1080p.


No it is not! Nobody uses 1080p for broadcast yet! Also they use 50Hz there which is worse than 60Hz, especially for sports and movies have sound speedup. I do not know how people come up with this stuff. People need to understand that HD in Europe is in infancy compared to US. Later this year there is a sat service coming in US that will download movies in 1080p with DTS audio.


----------



## CKNAV

ub1934 said:


> D is 1280 x 1080 or at the most 1440 x 1080 not 1920 x 180 or 1920 x 720 , D 11 is almost there


Not true. All the new MPEG4 1080i channels are 1920x1080i. Only old MPEG2 channels are 1280x1080i. There is no such thing as 1920x720. Progressive channels resolution like ESPNHD or HistoryHD is 1280x720p from the source.


----------



## CKNAV

theratpatrol said:


> With D11 up does that mean we'll get full 1920x1080 resolution on all HD's?
> 
> Thanks


You already get full 1920x10080i resolution on MPEG4 channels. That is why D* is only putting 5 MPEG4 channels per transponder. E* puts 6 MPEG4 channels per transponder so they down rezz their channels to 1440x1080i.


----------



## gregjones

Why not keep this on the actual topic?


----------



## alfredk

Earth Questions : Ok after all the space activities are completed, what exactly are the proactive functions on our receivers and Slimline dish alignments that we are to perform on DTV systems down here on earth to get this new bird ?
- do we do nothing
- is there fine tuning required on our dishes
- if we get 99 now, but in my North NY area we do not have LIL channels, therefore we show no readings on the current 99 bird, does it mean that once D11 is up, we will see signals starting to show up in the 99 where all are 0 right now
- does it mean that SD channels for network stations 380/381/382/383/384/386/388/399 will now befome HD channels and we will not have to wait for the LOCAL HD CBC/ABC/NBC/FOX channels to hit our area
- does it mean the pixel problems with the HR20 will finally be resolved
- does it mean we have to reset, or resubscribe for our HD channels


----------



## cb7214

alfredk said:


> Earth Questions : Ok after all the space activities are completed, what exactly are the proactive functions on our receivers and Slimline dish alignments that we are to perform on DTV systems down here on earth to get this new bird ?
> - do we do nothing
> - is there fine tuning required on our dishes
> - if we get 99 now, but in my North NY area we do not have LIL channels, therefore we show no readings on the current 99 bird, does it mean that once D11 is up, we will see signals starting to show up in the 99 where all are 0 right now
> - does it mean that SD channels for network stations 380/381/382/383/384/386/388/399 will now befome HD channels and we will not have to wait for the LOCAL HD CBC/ABC/NBC/FOX channels to hit our area
> - does it mean the pixel problems with the HR20 will finally be resolved
> - does it mean we have to reset, or resubscribe for our HD channels


1. Correct
2. Possibly but you won't know until the signals start showing up
3. Not on your current 99s or 99c there will be a new set of transponders under 99b
4. No, the SD networks won't change to HD if they are SD now, there are seperate feeds for HD and SD
5. It should have no effect, if may be a signal strength problem but the new satellite will have no bearing on increasing or improving the quality of picture
6. No you will not have to make any changes to your HD package


----------



## alfredk

Thanks CB7214 !

#4 answer really concerns me. You see, in our area there are no current LIL HD network channels available from DTV, we have to watch the 380 SD network channels. Yet, in the 390 channel range we show the western network feeds as " not purchased " and we could not purchase them either, I have even offered 3 times the asking price for these channels. All I want are my network eastern feed HD channels and it looks like the only way they are going to appear is IF DTV expands it's Local HD to northern NY state area.

CB7214, is there any other way you could find out if we could get HD network channels from DTV in the 13601 ZIP code area ? I run my zip on the DTV website once a week and it always shows, no current local channels offered in your area. Will locals at sometime expand to N-NY-state ? I was reading somewhere on this board that they are looking to cover 84% of the USA for local HD channels, is northern NY state part of that 84% future coverage plan ?


----------



## LameLefty

alfredk said:


> Thanks CB7214 !
> 
> #4 answer really concerns me. You see, in our area there are no current LIL HD network channels available from DTV, we have to watch the 380 SD network channels. Yet, in the 390 channel range we show the western network feeds as " not purchased " and we could not purchase them either, I have even offered 3 times the asking price for these channels. All I want are my network eastern feed HD channels and it looks like the only way they are going to appear is IF DTV expands it's Local HD to northern NY state area.
> 
> CB7214, is there any other way you could find out if we could get HD network channels from DTV in the 13601 ZIP code area ? I run my zip on the DTV website once a week and it always shows, no current local channels offered in your area. Will locals at sometime expand to N-NY-state ? I was reading somewhere on this board that they are looking to cover 84% of the USA for local HD channels, is northern NY state part of that 84% future coverage plan ?


This really doesn't have that much to do with D11 directly but ...

You cannot get the east or west DNS feeds unless your local channels all grant you waivers - that's the rule. Most channels will not grant waivers, period, because it cuts into their viewer-base if you're not watching their station in favor of a network affiliate in NY or Los Angeles. They want their commercials to appear on your screen, not those of a station hundreds or thousands of miles away.

There is no need to keep putting your ZIP code into Directv's site - check here every Wednesday to see if new channels or new locals are being added. Not many will be added until D11 is active (to bring this answer back on topic  ). That said, a rough guide to how soon you may be getting locals in HD is to see how big your DMA is as compared to others who are getting HD signals already. If you're very far down the list it might be awhile. However, Directv doesn't go purely by DMA size so who knows?


----------



## alfredk

LameLefty said:


> This really doesn't have that much to do with D11 directly but ...
> 
> You cannot get the east or west DNS feeds unless your local channels all grant you waivers - that's the rule. Most channels will not grant waivers, period, because it cuts into their viewer-base if you're not watching their station in favor of a network affiliate in NY or Los Angeles. They want their commercials to appear on your screen, not those of a station hundreds or thousands of miles away.
> 
> There is no need to keep putting your ZIP code into Directv's site - check here every Wednesday to see if new channels or new locals are being added. Not many will be added until D11 is active (to bring this answer back on topic  ). That said, a rough guide to how soon you may be getting locals in HD is to see how big your DMA is as compared to others who are getting HD signals already. If you're very far down the list it might be awhile. However, Directv doesn't go purely by DMA size so who knows?


Thanks again, ? where can I find the DMA data and how far down the the list we are ?


----------



## bobnielsen

alfredk said:


> Thanks CB7214 !
> 
> #4 answer really concerns me. You see, in our area there are no current LIL HD network channels available from DTV, we have to watch the 380 SD network channels. Yet, in the 390 channel range we show the western network feeds as " not purchased " and we could not purchase them either, I have even offered 3 times the asking price for these channels. All I want are my network eastern feed HD channels and it looks like the only way they are going to appear is IF DTV expands it's Local HD to northern NY state area.
> 
> CB7214, is there any other way you could find out if we could get HD network channels from DTV in the 13601 ZIP code area ? I run my zip on the DTV website once a week and it always shows, no current local channels offered in your area. Will locals at sometime expand to N-NY-state ? I was reading somewhere on this board that they are looking to cover 84% of the USA for local HD channels, is northern NY state part of that 84% future coverage plan ?


If you don't get local HD via satellite and are located where OTA locals cannot be received, you may be eligible for the East HD DNS feeds from Directv. In some cases, qualification for this will be automatic, but in other cases they will have to ask for waivers from your local network stations. Because of federal rules, only those in the Mountain and Pacific time zones can get the west coast feeds.


----------



## machavez00

why is d-11 over Indonesia?


----------



## gregjones

machavez00 said:


> why is d-11 over Indonesia?


It's on spring break.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Until D11 finishes circularizing at a geosynchronous orbit, it will move over the Earth's surface as the orbital maneuvers take it.  

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MikeR7

alfredk said:


> Thanks again, ? where can I find the DMA data and how far down the the list we are ?


This thread on avs forum is informative on DMA rankings and talk amongst people in those DMA's:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241


----------



## curt8403

D11 seems to be down to about 1 mile per second and slowing .


----------



## Sixto

TLE #17 ... about the same ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE17)
1 32729U 08013A   08092.77543503 -.00000147  00000-0  10000-3 0   176
2 32729 000.8107 355.1636 3329755 196.5788 006.9029 01.29296244   249

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-01-2008 18:36:37[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	24
Inclination		0.811
RA of A. Node		355.164
Eccentricity		0.3329755
Argument of Perigee	196.579
Revs per day		1.29296244
Period			18h 33m 43s (1113.72 min)
Semi-major axis		35 591 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	17,362 x 41,064 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		6.903
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	17 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41 064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)
TLE#13 (03-28-2008 22:06:17)  7,386 x 40,989 km (+5.3 hours, at 9.2 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> D11 seems to be down to about 1 mile per second and slowing .


THe orbit is still pretty elliptical - the higher parts of the orbit are the highest in potential energy and thus lowest in kinetic energy. The lowest parts of the orbit are the highest in kinetic energy and the lowest in potential energy. The total energy is the same at all parts of the orbit.


----------



## skyviewmark1

curt8403 said:


> D11 seems to be down to about 1 mile per second and slowing .


When it gets to 0 miles per second things will be even better


----------



## vfr781rider

gregjones said:


> It's on spring break.


That's funny :lol:


----------



## TomF

Sixto said:


> finally figured out how to make the pretty orbit picture and added to post #2 ... added D10 and D11 TLE# 16.


For anybody else who wants to know how to make the pretty orbit picture, assuming that you already have ephemeris running:

Make a text file on your desktop and include any of the Direct11 TLEs. You can just cut and past from Sixto's list if you want. The later TLEs have the most difference. Also add the TLE for DirecTV10 to see the orbit comparison.
In ephemeris, press the D key to get rid of the data display in the upper left corner
Press the Q key to get rid of the default satellite data
Press the A key to load your text file
Holding down the right button on your mouse, move the mouse down to shrink the size of good old Mother Earth
Holding down the left button on your mouse, move the mouse around to change the perspective on the earth and the satellite orbits. The best comparison of orbits is to move the mouse down so that you are looking down on the North Pole.
Increase the "tail" of the orbit by pressing the W key repeatedly.
Press the up arrow repeatedly to speed up the animation. Or you can move the progress bar on the bottom back and forth.
Press the H key for a list of commands
With a little practice you should get something that looks like the picture that Sixto posted


----------



## Jeremy W

skyviewmark1 said:


> When it gets to 0 miles per second things will be even better


If the satellite stopped moving, we wouldn't be able to get a signal from it for very long! :lol:


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> If the satellite stopped moving, we wouldn't be able to get a signal from it for very long! :lol:


That depends on your frame of reference.


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> That depends on your frame of reference.


Well pardon me for assuming that everyone reading this thread was happily and firmly within the confines of Earth's gravitational field.


----------



## skyviewmark1

Jeremy W said:


> If the satellite stopped moving, we wouldn't be able to get a signal from it for very long! :lol:


Go to N2yo and check the speed of the geostationary sats and get back to me on that one.


----------



## LameLefty

skyviewmark1 said:


> Go to N2yo and check the speed of the geostationary sats and get back to me on that one.


First, N2yo isn't the most accurate place to get your info and second, as Harsh and Jeremy point out through their comments, even if the motion relative to Earth's surface looks to be stationary, the satellite is most certainly still moving.


----------



## skyviewmark1

Yes, but the speed relative to us should be 0. And that is the point that I was making.


----------



## ctaranto

skyviewmark1 said:


> Go to N2yo and check the speed of the geostationary sats and get back to me on that one.


What if we threw an object in the sky that didn't move, such as, the Sun?

If the Sun doesn't move, and a GSO satellite doesn't move, then why, based on a single point on Earth, does the Sun go across our sky (and disappear for hours), but a GSO satellite is always in the same relative location? (this is a rhetorical question)

I'm sure n2yo is using the "speed" from the perspective of a place on Earth. That doesn't mean that the GSO satellites aren't moving.

The conversation is going on a tangent.. :backtotop

-Craig


----------



## Sixto

TLE #18 ... same ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE18)
1 32729U 08013A   08093.10000999 -.00000147  00000-0  10000-3 0   182
2 32729 000.8090 354.7049 3330264 197.0434 157.9700 01.29292387   252

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-02-2008 02:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	25
Inclination		0.809
RA of A. Node		354.705
Eccentricity		0.3330264
Argument of Perigee	197.043
Revs per day		1.29292387
Period			18h 33m 45s (1113.75 min)
Semi-major axis		35 592 km
Perigee x Apogee	17 361 x 41 067 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		157.970
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	18 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+29.5 hours, at 10.4 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## bubbers44

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT

Sixto posted this site in post #2. It shows D11 in it's current position and orbit. It also is a great site for observing the ISS and shuttle. Saw both of them in close orbits very bright during their last mission.


----------



## tuff bob

looking at heavens-above, it looks like the next orbit or two is going to be very close to 99W


----------



## alfredk

Maybe this has been brought up before, but in all my searches on this site I can not find the answer. I real appreciate the knowledge and help if someone can tell me the following :

When I do a Sat. signal view I show both tuners with decent signals % on :
101 / 110 / 119 / 103C

My DMA is not in a area that gets any Local HD channels so the other two :

99S / 103S ... spot feeds, only show 1 transponder on 99s with 37% and one on 103S at 77%

What I do not see is : 99A or 99B or 99C .... Now with D11 going up, where will I find the new Sat. ?? 

Will it be on the only 99S that I show, or once in operation and when I view Sat. signals, I will see a new 99_ < something, maybe a 99C appear ?? 

Thanks in advance for any help !


----------



## bobnielsen

99c will show up at the appointed time.


----------



## bubbers44

tuff bob said:


> looking at heavens-above, it looks like the next orbit or two is going to be very close to 99W


It will be a while tweeking the orbit to make a perfect circle orbit so they will not want it in position until close to that time.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> It will be a while tweeking the orbit to make a perfect circle orbit so they will not want it in position until close to that time.


More to the point, the notion of "being in position" has no meaning until the satellite is in a geostationary orbit. Currently, the apogee is too high and the perigee is too low, meaning that the longitude of the satellite is continuously changing. However, I suspect the wink at the end of tuff bob's post means that he knew that anyway!


----------



## bubbers44

Watching it's movement the last few hours it was directly south of Hawaii about 4 hrs ago so it appears to be averaging around 300 mph over the earth eastbound in it's eliptical orbit. Will they boost it on this pass? The average orbit is now 17,500 miles so they only have a 5,000 mile boost to stop the satellite from the easterly drift.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> More to the point, the notion of "being in position" has no meaning until the satellite is in a geostationary orbit. Currently, the apogee is too high and the perigee is too low, meaning that the longitude of the satellite is continuously changing. However, I suspect the wink at the end of tuff bob's post means that he knew that anyway!


And as long-time readers know by now, since both apogee and perigee need adjustment, there will have to be multiple burns required to circularize the orbit properly.


----------



## cebbigh

bobnielsen said:


> 99c will show up at the appointed time.


In the meantime, "Keep watching the skies!" :eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

cebbigh said:


> In the meantime, "Keep watching the skies!" :eek2:


The truth is out there. Orbiting at between 17,000 and 41,000 km.


----------



## cartrivision

ctaranto said:


> What if we threw an object in the sky that didn't move, such as, the Sun?
> 
> If the Sun doesn't move, and a GSO satellite doesn't move, then why, based on a single point on Earth, does the Sun go across our sky (and disappear for hours), but a GSO satellite is always in the same relative location? (this is a rhetorical question)
> 
> I'm sure n2yo is using the "speed" from the perspective of a place on Earth. That doesn't mean that the GSO satellites aren't moving.


Who says that the sun doesn't move? The problem is that our galaxy is moving within the universe while sun is moving within our galaxy while the earth is moving relative to the sun while the satellite is moving relative to the earth.

Everything is moving, and all movement is relative, so you have to pick a reference point. Since the n2yo site uses earth as the reference point when tracking the satellite speed, I assume that's the standard for tracking satellites. That means that the speed of the satellite will be shown as 0 when it is at its final orbital slot.


----------



## cartrivision

bobnielsen said:


> 99c will show up at the appointed time.


I predict that the time at which DIRECTV-11 will be parked at 99W and be fully operational will be.......

.....nominal.


----------



## houskamp

Nominal??? should be SOON


----------



## ctaranto

cartrivision said:


> Who says that the sun doesn't move? The problem is that our galaxy is moving within the universe while sun is moving within our galaxy while the earth is moving relative to the sun while the satellite is moving relative to the earth.
> 
> Everything is moving, and all movement is relative, so you have to pick a reference point. Since the n2yo site uses earth as the reference point when tracking the satellite speed, I assume that's the standard for tracking satellites. That means that the speed of the satellite will be shown as 0 when it is at its final orbital slot.


I don't dispute that. This was in response to someone a while back stated to the effect that D11 was going to "stop".

-Craig


----------



## JeffBowser

OK, does anyone mind if I get dizzy while we discuss all this hurtling around at break-neck speeds ?


----------



## dms1

ctaranto said:


> I don't dispute that. This was in response to someone a while back stated to the effect that D11 was going to "stop".
> 
> -Craig


Once in GSO n2yo will show D11 as having a speed of zero because it shows speed relative to a fixed point on the Earth's surface rather than relative to the Earth's center of mass.

Of course, if any orbiting body did have zero speed relative to a frame of reference in which the Earth's center of mass was also stationary then it would simply fall to Earth.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> bubbers44 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tuff bob said:
> 
> 
> 
> looking at heavens-above, it looks like the next orbit or two is going to be very close to 99W
> 
> 
> 
> It will be a while tweeking the orbit to make a perfect circle orbit so they will not want it in position until close to that time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More to the point, the notion of "being in position" has no meaning until the satellite is in a geostationary orbit. Currently, the apogee is too high and the perigee is too low, meaning that the longitude of the satellite is continuously changing. However, I suspect the wink at the end of tuff bob's post means that he knew that anyway!
Click to expand...

But it's very close to being geosynchronous right now and will be even closer after the next burn, even though it still won't be in a circular orbit after the next burn. If they do a burn at the next apogee (coming up in a few hours) and slow the orbit down from its current 1.29 revolutions per day to close to 1 revolution per day, it would be very possible that D11 would never pass over Africa again.

It's also possible that the next burn will only slow it down to somewhere around 1.1 revolutions per day, in which case it will take D11 about 10 days to make one more trip over the surface of the earth to come back close to its home longitude.

I predict that D11 will make at most just one more journey past South America, Africa, and Asia, and maybe none.


----------



## BobV

99S + 99W = 99C

99C is agent 99's granddaughter which is about age 24 now. :lol: 
So may ? is where does 88 come in, Maybe after 110 + 119 = Retired.


----------



## davemayo

BobV said:


> 99S + 99W = 99C
> 
> 99C is agent 99's granddaughter which is about age 24 now. :lol:
> So may ? is where does 88 come in, Maybe after 110 + 119 = Retired.


Huh? :eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

davemayo said:


> Huh? :eek2:


_Get Smart_ reference (you know the remake is coming soon, right?)


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> Who says that the sun doesn't move? The problem is that our galaxy is moving within the universe *while sun is moving within our galaxy *while the earth is moving relative to the sun while the satellite is moving relative to the earth.
> 
> Everything is moving, and all movement is relative, so you have to pick a reference point. Since the n2yo site uses earth as the reference point when tracking the satellite speed, I assume that's the standard for tracking satellites. That means that the speed of the satellite will be shown as 0 when it is at its final orbital slot.


Yeah... It's always been confusing to me though, how the sun and the rest of the stars move within our and other galaxies though. For some reason their orbits do not obey the same Newtonian orbital mechanics as do artificial and natural satellites which orbit the earth or sun do. As all the stars in a galaxy seem to have the same angular velocity, regardless of distance from the center or core. Sort of like a great spinning wheel, with the stars mostly concentrated along the spokes of the wheel.

One would think that in harmony with Newtonian mechanics, the stars closer to the center of the galaxy would have to orbit faster than those further out. But that is not the case. I know that astronomers have posited the concept of "dark matter" to try and explain this peculiar phenomenon, but I don't know if the existence of this has ever been proven.

OK, back on topic&#8230; :backtotop


----------



## tuff bob

I predict a possible burn coming up soon

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT


----------



## bubbers44

Maybe if the closer in solar systems of the milky way galaxy aren't moving around the center of mass fast enough we will end up as a black hole. That is something to look forward to in the next few million years. I think when they nudge this D11 at the right time and place it to that magic 22,238 miles or what ever we will be happy for the next 15 years or so. After that, who cares!


----------



## cartrivision

tuff bob said:


> I predict a possible burn coming up soon
> 
> http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT


Probably not until the next apogee, which I think is at about 10am PDT tomorrow. By then, D11 will have gone slightly past the east coast of the US, and from there they will probably "back it up" and in to its slot at 99W.


----------



## bubbers44

Yes, I think in the next three hours looking at the orbit they will do a burn to get it up to the proper orbit. We will see.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> Yes, I think in the next three hours looking at the orbit they will do a burn to get it up to the proper orbit. We will see.


They can't get it into its proper orbit with a single burn since both the apogee and perigee are currently wrong.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Yes, I think in the next three hours looking at the orbit they will do a burn to get it up to the proper orbit. We will see.


They usually burn at apogee, which is the most efficient (fuel saving) time to burn. The more fuel they save, the longer the life of the satellite.


----------



## steveken

bubbers44 said:


> Maybe if the closer in solar systems of the milky way galaxy aren't moving around the center of mass fast enough we will end up as a black hole. That is something to look forward to in the next few million years. I think when they nudge this D11 at the right time and place it to that magic 22,238 miles or what ever we will be happy for the next 15 years or so. After that, who cares!


The center of the Milky Way galaxy _IS_ a black hole if I am not mistaken.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> They can't get it into its proper orbit with a single burn since both the apogee and perigee are currently wrong.


I think that they will make the orbit circular at the current apogee, which will make it start moving slowly from east to west, and then drop it down into a geostationary orbit as it backs into the 99W slot.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> I think that they will make the orbit circular at the current apogee, which will make it start moving slowly from east to west, and then drop it down into a geostationary orbit as it backs into the 99W slot.


I'm not sure. The current apogee is approximately 5,000 km above GSO. That's a pretty big maneuver to make at once. They might make a couple of adjustments over the next couple days instead. Just depends on the total propellant budget and ISP (efficiency, more or less) of the apogee motor. And, of course, how much of a hurry they are to do the adjustments in long burns rather than smaller, easier-to-calibrate and -correct chunks.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> The center of the Milky Way galaxy _IS_ a black hole if I am not mistaken.


Indeed it is believed to be so - Sagittarius A* to be precise. In fact, it is thought that all spiral galaxies rotate around a central black hole.


----------



## dms1

cartrivision said:


> The more fuel they save, the longer the life of the satellite.


 Probably not in fact. There is a chemical motor for the gross maneuvering which is distinct from the XIPS thrusters used for station keeping.


----------



## bubbers44

Backing up a satellite requires going into a higher orbit requiring more fuel. I think they will do it within 3 hrs. so they don't waste that fuel. Being slightly below orbit is a free ride. Just kick it up a bit when in position and they save fuel.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> Probably not in fact. There is a chemical motor for the gross maneuvering which is distinct from the XIPS thrusters used for station keeping.


Really? That's completely contrary to the explaination that was given for the shortened life of ASIASAT-3 when they used most of the fuel to send it around the moon to get it into its proper orbit after a failed launch. If they can't use the fuel that is used for those "gross maneuvering" burns for station keeping too, then why did using it up to go around the moon shorten the life of ASIASAT-3?


----------



## dmurphy

cartrivision said:


> Really? That's completely contrary to the explaination that was given for the shortened life of ASIASAT-3 when they used most of the fuel to send it around the moon to get it into its proper orbit after a failed launch. If they can't use the fuel that is used for those "gross maneuvering" burns for station keeping too, then why did using it up to go around the moon shorten the life of ASIASAT-3?


ASIASAT-3 was a Hughes/Boeing 601HP satellite. Having said that - the XIPS thrusters are optional on the 601HP's. I don't know the specifics, but it's possible that there were no separate XIPS thrusters, and thus with a single, traditional chemical motor, fuel consumption was of the essence.

DIRECTV-10, 11 & 12 all have XIPS thrusters onboard. They are all Boeing 702-model spacecraft.

*edit*: It does indeed appear that ASIASAT-3 did *not* have XIPS thrusters aboard.


----------



## dms1

dmurphy said:


> ASIASAT-3 was a Hughes/Boeing 601HP satellite. Having said that - the XIPS thrusters are optional on the 601HP's. I don't know the specifics, but it's possible that there were no separate XIPS thrusters, and thus with a single, traditional chemical motor, fuel consumption was of the essence.
> 
> DIRECTV-10, 11 & 12 all have XIPS thrusters onboard. They are all Boeing 702-model spacecraft.


There are some details of the propulsion systems from D10 (and hence D11 and D12 too) on pages 22 and 23 of this FCC filing: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-73814


----------



## ziltomil

cartrivision said:


> Probably not until the next apogee, which I think is at about 10am PDT tomorrow. By then, D11 will have gone slightly past the east coast of the US, and from there they will probably "back it up" and in to its slot at 99W.


That's right, in the next orbit there in a golden oppurtunity to insert in to 99W.

If on the next Apogee they burn and raise the perigee to 35,786Km they will move to 89W on perigee, then they could lower the apogee from 41000km to 36000km and continue slide west, then at the next perigee lower the apogee to 35800km.

DirecTV could be placed in 99W by the weekend.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> I'm not sure. The current apogee is approximately 5,000 km above GSO. That's a pretty big maneuver to make at once. They might make a couple of adjustments over the next couple days instead.


But if they wait too long, could it take many orbits by D11 to make it back around to where they want to be. Every apogee increase has lengthened the satellite orbit period and reduced the apparent movement in longitude by D11. Naively there looks to be a good window coming up ...


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Backing up a satellite requires going into a higher orbit requiring more fuel. I think they will do it within 3 hrs. so they don't waste that fuel. Being slightly below orbit is a free ride. Just kick it up a bit when in position and they save fuel.


It's current apogee is already at a "higher orbit". I assume that they moved its apogee higher than the geostationary altitude for a reason, and I am assuming that the reason is that they plan to circularize the orbit at its current apogee altitude, at which time it will have gone east past its 99W slot, and then they will drop it down to the geostationary altitude as it backs into the 99W slot.

This is all just speculation on my part. Obviously there are many different ways that they can get it into its final parking spot.


----------



## Sixto

Announcement: Meeting Thursday in the DirecTV parking lot in El Segundo. The Boeing and DirecTV engineers would like to consult with the DBSTalk rocket scientists relative to the next burn for D11. Free bagels to all interested. 

zzzzzzz ... oh, snort ... awake ... oh, that was just a dream ...

No need for any non righty scientists for a while ...

Back to awaiting TLE#19 ...


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> I'm not sure. The current apogee is approximately 5,000 km above GSO. That's a pretty big maneuver to make at once. They might make a couple of adjustments over the next couple days instead. Just depends on the total propellant budget and ISP (efficiency, more or less) of the apogee motor. And, of course, how much of a hurry they are to do the adjustments in long burns rather than smaller, easier-to-calibrate and -correct chunks.


Judging from the size of the perigee changes in the past week, you may be right that it will be at least two more seperate burns at apogee to raise the perigee.


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> The Boeing and DirecTV engineers ...


Out of interest, does anyone know if DirecTV manage the satellites themselves (at least as far as getting into place and then station keeping is concerned)? I wouldn't be surprised if, given the cost of the satellites, each one comes with life-time support.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know if DirecTV manage the satellites themselves (at least as far as getting into place and then station keeping is concerned)? I wouldn't be surprised if, given the cost of the satellites, each one comes with life-time support.


For D10, comments were made that Boeing was responsible until D10 was safely at 103 and tested. Not sure if it was confirmed but that was the consensus.


----------



## noblenoof

syphix said:


> Wrong. They changed it: 02468.
> 
> I'll have control this Friday evening!!!


What is this code for and how do you use it? Thx.


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> For D10, comments were made that Boeing was responsible until D10 was safely at 103 and tested. Not sure if it was confirmed but that was the consensus.


I believe that is the same with D11.. I thought I read that somewhere, but not sure where..


----------



## Tom Robertson

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know if DirecTV manage the satellites themselves (at least as far as getting into place and then station keeping is concerned)? I wouldn't be surprised if, given the cost of the satellites, each one comes with life-time support.





Sixto said:


> For D10, comments were made that Boeing was responsible until D10 was safely at 103 and tested. Not sure if it was confirmed but that was the consensus.


There are a couple of key events: Ownership, control, and services (and warranty). For legal titling purposes, according to the contract, Ownership transfers to DIRECTV the moment the launch vehicle is intentionally ignited for liftoff.

And roughly around that time, control goes from Boeing to the launch company. (Maybe at the time of mounting the satellite to the launch vehicle?)

Once the launch vehicle and spacecraft (the satellite) separate, control reverts to Boeing for testing, positioning, verification.

Then at some point (which can depend on a couple factors, I'm guessing), control can transfer to DIRECTV or they can contract that back to Boeing as part of services. (I think DIRECTV maintains control, but I'm too tired to be sure right now.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> Out of interest, does anyone know if DirecTV manage the satellites themselves (at least as far as getting into place and then station keeping is concerned)? I wouldn't be surprised if, given the cost of the satellites, each one comes with life-time support.


It used to be Hughes who was actually "flying" the satellites back when DirecTV was owned by Hughes and Hughes was owned by GM. Now Boeing owns what used to be Hughes' satellite operations and Raytheon owns the rest of what used to be Hughes, and DirecTV is a separate entity. In other words, none of the "rocket scientists" are employees of GM, Hughes, or DirecTV any more.


----------



## bubbers44

Looks like maybe next time around now. Three or four days?


----------



## jefbal99

bubbers44 said:


> Looks like maybe next time around now. Three or four days?


There hasn't been a new TLE released, so we honestly have no clue where D11 is at right now, only speculation based on old TLEs.

We could get a new TLE in 5 mins showing a small or major burn yesterday or it could be 3 weeks.

Based on D10, it will end up at some other GSO for testing, then move to 99 for final parking


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sorry if this has been asked already, but what does TLE stand for?

Thanks


----------



## Indiana627

Two Line Element.

What that means I don't know.


----------



## tuff bob

DirecTV-11, please call NASA with your latest orbit data, thanks :lol:


----------



## smiddy

I can't wait for some signals to come down...what is the over/under on the new satellite added to this week's CE?


----------



## bubbers44

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT

This site updates about every four hours. Where they get their data is the question.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT
> 
> This site updates about every four hours. Where they get their data is the question.


It might update every few hours, but it is only a simulation based on the last TLE. They even show that they are using TLE 18 which was released yesterday.


----------



## bubbers44

Clicking help on the above web site explains how they daily download orbits from Space Track and update their data. They may change the orbit position by computer in between updates.


----------



## bakers12

Indiana627 said:


> Two Line Element.
> 
> What that means I don't know.


The two-line elements are supplied by Norad at space-track.org among other places. The data can be fed into software, such as Orbitron, to calculate and predict orbital paths. The latest TLE is:


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08093.10000999 -.00000147  00000-0  10000-3 0   182
2 32729 000.8090 354.7049 3330264 197.0434 157.9700 01.29292387   252


----------



## Interceptor

bubbers44 said:


> Clicking help on the above web site explains how they daily download orbits from Space Track and update their data. They may change the orbit position by computer in between updates.


The TLE is a "snapshot" of where the object is and exactly which direction it is moving at a particular moment. If nothing on the object (thrusters, etc.) causes it to change its course, there are very specific models concerning what will happen to that object, being affected by gravity and other external forces.

With that being said, most objects in a stable orbit will not need their TLEs updated as often. Sometimes NORAD goes for several days without updating a particular TLE. However, objects that are being adjusted, such as DirecTV-11 or a shuttle, will require much more frequent TLE updates. Therefore, it is conceivable that a TLE might no longer be valid as soon as a few seconds after the observation at that moment when NORAD takes the "snapshot." With a mission such as this, it's often conjecture as to where an object is at a given time. Programs such as Orbitron, Orbview, STS-Plus, are excellent at extrapolating data, but they are subject to errors due to the fact that an object might be in the middle of a maneuver when the "snapshot" is taken.


----------



## Sixto

Interceptor said:


> The TLE is a "snapshot" of where the object is and exactly which direction it is moving at a particular moment. If nothing on the object (thrusters, etc.) causes it to change its course, there are very specific models concerning what will happen to that object, being affected by gravity and other external forces.
> 
> With that being said, most objects in a stable orbit will not need their TLEs updated as often. Sometimes NORAD goes for several days without updating a particular TLE. However, objects that are being adjusted, such as DirecTV-11 or a shuttle, will require much more frequent TLE updates. Therefore, it is conceivable that a TLE might no longer be valid as soon as a few seconds after the observation at that moment when NORAD takes the "snapshot." With a mission such as this, it's often conjecture as to where an object is at a given time. Programs such as Orbitron, Orbview, STS-Plus, are excellent at extrapolating data, but they are subject to errors due to the fact that an object might be in the middle of a maneuver when the "snapshot" is taken.


Excellent explanation.

Have tried to add similar words to the summary post, this question keeps getting asked, great to see explained again.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Excellent explanation.
> 
> Have tried to add similar words to the summary post, this question keeps getting asked, great to see explained again.


You know, it's a shame we didn't mine the D10 Technical Thread for a summary FAQ of all this stuff back six or seven months ago - it would've saved a lot of times for us to point the newbs at it.


----------



## Jeremy W

smiddy said:


> I can't wait for some signals to come down...what is the over/under on the new satellite added to this week's CE?


The software doesn't need to be updated to add the new satellite. It's already capable of seeing it, it just needs to be activated.


----------



## tuff bob

I was wondering if there was a way to "restack" the signal to swap 99 and 103 so we could see them before DirecTV enables it


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> I was wondering if there was a way to "restack" the signal to swap 99 and 103 so we could see them before DirecTV enables it


Not a chance.


----------



## cartrivision

tuff bob said:


> I was wondering if there was a way to "restack" the signal to swap 99 and 103 so we could see them before DirecTV enables it


Just move the dish so that the 103 LNB points at the 99 satellite slot. You could get transponder signal levels if any of the D11 transponders were the same as the ones on 103 for which transponder levels are displayed, but you wouldn't get any test programming that was there since your receiver wouldn't be authorized to display the programming contained in the stream.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> Not a chance.


you give in too easy. use a signal locker and swap the 22khz tones :grin:


----------



## HeadHodge

cartrivision said:


> Just move the dish so that the 103 LNB points at the 99 satellite slot. You could get transponder signal levels if any of the D11 transponders were the same as the ones on 103 for which transponder levels are displayed, but you wouldn't get any test programming that was there since your receiver wouldn't be authorized to display the programming contained in the stream.


Well that's kinda interesting.

Could you do that trick with the 110 or 119 LNB's or are they a different kind of LNB?? i.e. could I use an old 3 LNB dish to goof around with?


----------



## rotomike

RobertHodge said:


> Well that's kinda interesting.
> 
> Could you do that trick with the 110 or 119 LNB's or are they a different kind of LNB?? i.e. could I use an old 3 LNB dish to goof around with?


Big time different.


----------



## cartrivision

tuff bob said:


> you give in too easy. use a signal locker and swap the 22khz tones :grin:


I often find that when someone says "not a chance", there usually is a chance. :alterhase


----------



## tuff bob

Looking at this:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=596513&page=1&pp=30

it looks like the 22kHz tone switches between 99 and 103, so I believe a signal polarity locker connected "swapped" to a multiswitch would effectively swap 99 and 103


----------



## Jeremy W

You won't get a signal even if you attempt to trick the receiver, because the receiver knows which satellite it's looking at. It's not simply taking an analog signal level and displaying it, it's taking a digital bit error rate and displaying that as a percentage. There is NO WAY to trick the receiver into displaying the signal levels. NONE. The suggestions being given in this thread haven't been tried, because if the posters had actually tried them they would know that it doesn't work.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> You won't get a signal even if you attempt to trick the receiver, because the receiver knows which satellite it's looking at.


Then that is different for Ka and/or the DirecTV line of receivers. I know upto the HR10-250, the receiver did not know which satellite it was looking at in terms of displaying a signal strength - i know I've been able to align on both 110 and 119 with a single LNB dish, as long as the transponder frequency was the same, even though the receiver is only told it is on a round dish.


----------



## houskamp

I remember ol' Eaglepc pulling the BBCs off his reciever and thinking he was seeing D10.. was actualy seeing 101..


----------



## Interceptor

LameLefty said:


> You know, it's a shame we didn't mine the D10 Technical Thread for a summary FAQ of all this stuff back six or seven months ago - it would've saved a lot of times for us to point the newbs at it.


Yeah... I just wish we could find some kind of flash animation to point people to. I think a graphic animation would be alot easier for most to understand.

BTW, Lefty, I checked out your guitars on your website. You've got some really nice stuff. I just can't figure out how you lefties can play them upside-down! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Interceptor said:


> Yeah... I just wish we could find some kind of flash animation to point people to. I think a graphic animation would be alot easier for most to understand.


Yeah, I'm sure someday someone will put up a simulation like that. But it won't be me. 



> BTW, Lefty, I checked out your guitars on your website. You've got some really nice stuff. I just can't figure out how you lefties can play them upside-down! :lol:


Thanks. I enjoy them. I just wish I played them as well as they deserve. :grin:


----------



## Jeremy W

houskamp said:


> I remember ol' Eaglepc pulling the BBCs off his reciever and thinking he was seeing D10.. was actualy seeing 101..


But the frequencies for 101 and 103 don't even line up, so that doesn't make any sense.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> But the frequencies for 101 and 103 don't even line up, so that doesn't make any sense.


that's irreverent, if 99 lines up with 103, then using a sonora to "flip" the 22k should show 99 transponders when it lines up with 103.

of course that allows an obvious way for directv to defeat the trick, don't test on a common frequency - but then you'd expect that they would...


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> that's irreverent, if 99 lines up with 103, then using a sonora to "flip" the 22k should show 99 transponders when it lines up with 103.


Go ahead and try it, but I can't see it working.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> Go ahead and try it, but I can't see it working.


well, maybe thats because D11 hasn't arrived yet .. :grin:


----------



## smiddy

Jeremy W said:


> The software doesn't need to be updated to add the new satellite. It's already capable of seeing it, it just needs to be activated.


Humm, what? So you are saying once D11 starts sending signals down that the receivers capable of receiving the signals will have a screen associated with this new satellite automatically and that no software update is needed in order to recognize the new satellite, is that right?

I think there will need to be a software update. I can not get to my H20-600 from the hotel room, but its screens and recognition of the satellites within its field of view from my antenna do not list them as they are listed in the HR21 or HR20 receivers. While that is a simple recognition to display interface (user readable versus not) I think to recognize a satellite you have to have particular software in place.

Are there any other satellites within the field of view of the DirecTV antenna that are not showing up in the satellite setup screens?


----------



## houskamp

smiddy said:


> Humm, what? So you are saying once D11 starts sending signals down that the receivers capable of receiving the signals will have a screen associated with this new satellite automatically and that no software update is needed in order to recognize the new satellite, is that right?
> 
> I think there will need to be a software update. I can not get to my H20-600 from the hotel room, but its screens and recognition of the satellites within its field of view from my antenna do not list them as they are listed in the HR21 or HR20 receivers. While that is a simple recognition to display interface (user readable versus not) I think to recognize a satellite you have to have particular software in place.
> 
> Are there any other satellites within the field of view of the DirecTV antenna that are not showing up in the satellite setup screens?


When D10 was parked the extra transponders just showed up overnight.. I believe the number of transponders (the N/A spots) is in the guide data..
the extra transponders showed before the signals were there (lots of added "0" instead of "N/A")


----------



## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> When D10 was parked the extra transponders just showed up overnight.. I believe the number of transponders (the N/A spots) is in the guide data..
> the extra transponders showed before the signals were there (lots of added "0" instead of "N/A")


Correct - its a matter of activating the corresponding transponders, which chnages them from N/A to either 0 or a signal level.

I don't think anything needs to be changed in the firmware - it is already reading those transponders. Once D11 is active, they will show up with 0 or other levels as appropriate.


----------



## lwilli201

It should take a software update to add 99(c) to signal strength application.


----------



## Indiana627

lwilli201 said:


> It should take a software update to add 99(c) to signal strength application.


There was no software update when 103c came online last fall. It was just there all of a sudden one day.


----------



## lwilli201

Indiana627 said:


> There was no software update when 103c came online last fall. It was just there all of a sudden one day.


Interesting. I wonder if it is updated with the guide data.


----------



## Fish Man

lwilli201 said:


> It should take a software update to add 99(c) to signal strength application.


Actually not.

The transponder mapping is contained in the data that comes from the satellite. As soon as that data contains information about the mapping of new transponders, or an entire new satellite, the receiver will be able to deal with it.

The software within the receiver is entirely generic about this. As long as the tuner hardware is capable of tuning to a particular transponder frequency, the software, as it is, can be "told" via the data coming in the satellite stream how to tune to it, what channels map to it, and how it ought to display it on the signal strength screens.

Since DirecTV obviously has no control over what satellite and transponder any given receiver might be tuned to at any given moment, the channel and transponder mapping data is sent over every transponder on every satellite simultaneously.


----------



## Jeremy W

lwilli201 said:


> Interesting. I wonder if it is updated with the guide data.





Fish Man said:


> The transponder mapping is contained in the data that comes from the satellite. As soon as that data contains information about the mapping of new transponders, or an entire new satellite, the receiver will be able to deal with it.


This is correct.


Fish Man said:


> Since DirecTV obviously has no control over what satellite and transponder any given receiver might be tuned to at any given moment, the channel and transponder mapping data is sent over every transponder on every satellite simultaneously.


Actually, it's currently only sent over one transponder at 101 and one at 119. Because of the way the multiswitch works, the receiver will always be able to see one of those two transponders no matter what it's tuned to. And 101 is actually the main location, which is why the receivers will not boot properly if they can't see 101.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> This is correct. Actually, it's currently only sent over one transponder at 101 and one at 119.


does that imply that all boxes have a guide data tuner?


----------



## Indiana627

So since the latest TLE is 3 days old and there hasn't been such a long gap since D11 launched, do we think D*/Boeing is purposely hiding the movements of D11 now? If so, why? Do they not want us to know when it reaches its final orbit? And didn't something similar happen with D10 - all of a sudden all tracking data ceased while it moved to it's final orbit?


----------



## P Smith

"This is correct. Actually, it's currently only sent over one transponder at 101 and one at 119."

*Absolutly incorrect !*

*ALL* transponders have transponders/channels info.


----------



## Ken984

It is possible that they have moved it since the last TLE. A similar situation happened with D10, suddenly there were no updates for several days. Someone(Lefty I think) emailed Space-Track and the next TLE came out soon after and it showed that it was parked.

Now I am not saying D11 is parked, but since we haven't had any new TLE for so long anything(good) could have happened.

They cannot "hide" the movements, this is NORAD(Space-Track) we are talking about if it moves NORAD knows about it.



Indiana627 said:


> So since the latest TLE is 3 days old and there hasn't been such a long gap since D11 launched, do we think D*/Boeing is purposely hiding the movements of D11 now? If so, why? Do they not want us to know when it reaches its final orbit? And didn't something similar happen with D10 - all of a sudden all tracking data ceased while it moved to it's final orbit?


----------



## dms1

Indiana627 said:


> So since the latest TLE is 3 days old and there hasn't been such a long gap since D11 launched, do we think D*/Boeing is purposely hiding the movements of D11 now? If so, why? Do they not want us to know when it reaches its final orbit? And didn't something similar happen with D10 - all of a sudden all tracking data ceased while it moved to it's final orbit?


I'm not sure they can do that. The TLEs aren't released for the benefit of eager trackers like us. Rather, their primary function is to enable space craft operators to predict the orbits of other craft to avoid close calls etc. I'm not sure what the detailed mechanism is, but I believe NORAD decide the frequency of issuing TLEs for a given object based on a number of factors, but that the object's operators can request a new TLE if the orbit has been changed. This procedure ensures the maximum accuracy of predictions based on the TLEs. The current gap simply suggests that D11 is not being maneuvered at this time.


----------



## Sixto

It really hasn't been that long yet.

With D10, it was several days ... I will go back and look ...

If we go until tomorrow without something then we might have something to consider but upon looking at other satellites, 2 or 2+ days really isn't that much out of the ordinary.

We'll see ...


----------



## Sixto

Last TLE's all about the same date ... no conspiracy yet 


Code:


DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   08093.23300513 -.00000103 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01541
2 31862 000.0470 006.8700 0000267 055.1233 110.0496 01.00271765002729
AMC-14
1 32708U 08011A   08093.35200304 -.00000133 +00000-0 +00000-0 0 00176
2 32708 048.9815 166.6403 7086784 359.9677 000.1131 02.25661941000449
DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08093.10000999 -.00000147  00000-0  10000-3 0   182
2 32729 000.8090 354.7049 3330264 197.0434 157.9700 01.29292387   252


----------



## Drew2k

Jeremy W said:


> Fish Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The transponder mapping is contained in the data that comes from the satellite. As soon as that data contains information about the mapping of new transponders, or an entire new satellite, the receiver will be able to deal with it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Fish Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since DirecTV obviously has no control over what satellite and transponder any given receiver might be tuned to at any given moment, the channel and transponder mapping data is sent over every transponder on every satellite simultaneously.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, it's currently only sent over one transponder at 101 and one at 119. Because of the way the multiswitch works, the receiver will always be able to see one of those two transponders no matter what it's tuned to. And 101 is actually the main location, which is why the receivers will not boot properly if they can't see 101.
Click to expand...




P Smith said:


> "This is correct. Actually, it's currently only sent over one transponder at 101 and one at 119."
> 
> *Absolutly incorrect !*
> 
> *ALL* transponders have transponders/channels info.


Since you both support opposing viewpoints on this, I'd like to see both of you back your claims with proof, P Smith first, as he is adamant (note the use of bold) that Jeremy W is incorrect.

Gentlemen ... Proof at the ready .... Go!


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> With D10, it was several days ... I will go back and look ...
> 
> If we go until tomorrow without something then we might have something to consider but upon looking at other satellites, 2 or 2+ days really isn't that much out of the ordinary.


Looked at complete TLE list for D-10.
Never more than 2 full days without a TLE.
My memory made me think it was longer but the time stamp of the TLE showed that. Maybe we didn't "find" it as they were posted.

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Looked at complete TLE list for D-10.
> Never more than 2 full days without a TLE.
> My memory made me think it was longer but the time stamp of the TLE showed that. Maybe we didn't "find" it as they were posted.
> 
> Doctor j


Agree.

Just did the same. Yep, longest was about 2.5 days ...


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> Looked at complete TLE list for D-10.
> Never more than 2 full days without a TLE.
> My memory made me think it was longer but the time stamp of the TLE showed that. Maybe we didn't "find" it as they were posted.
> 
> Doctor j


It was longer than that between the time they were made PUBLIC, if I recall correctly. I seem to remember one or two of the TLEs being released out of sequence as well, such that the date stamp was earlier than one publicly released already. There was definitely something weird going on at the time, though whether due to data massaging to correct or fix an improperly-calculated elset or simply a glitch in the Space-Track.org website interface, no one can say who doesn't work for NORAD.


----------



## Indiana627

Ken984 said:


> They cannot "hide" the movements, this is NORAD(Space-Track) we are talking about if it moves NORAD knows about it.


"Hide" was a wrong word choice on my part. What I meant was wasn't there speculation with D10 that D* and/or Boeing was requesting the NORAD not release the TLE to the general public. I seem to recall speculation that maybe Boeing didn't want people to know exactly how they parked the sat (proprietary info?). And that led to speculation of wondering if NORAD would comply with that request. And then all that speculation ended when all of a sudden D10 showed up as parked.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> It was longer than that between the time they were made PUBLIC, if I recall correctly. I seem to remember one or two of the TLEs being released out of sequence as well, such that the date stamp was earlier than one publicly released already. There was definitely something weird going on at the time, though whether due to data massaging to correct or fix an improperly-calculated elset or simply a glitch in the Space-Track.org website interface, no one can say who doesn't work for NORAD.


There is a mention at http://www.celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/ of possible confusion over element set numbers when switching between tracking stations. I wonder if this is what happened with D10.


----------



## dms1

Indiana627 said:


> I seem to recall speculation that maybe Boeing didn't want people to know exactly how they parked the sat (proprietary info?).


I can't see how that can be the case because I would have thought that the people who could benefit from insight into any proprietary orbit maneuvering procedure are the exact same people that legitimately need to know the movement of all objects since they too have satellites sharing the same space. Presumably these people also have some access to TLEs for classified objects for the same reasons.


----------



## Indiana627

dms1 said:


> I can't see how that can be the case because I would have thought that the people who could benefit from insight into any proprietary orbit maneuvering procedure are the exact same people that legitimately need to know the movement of all objects since they too have satellites sharing the same space. Presumably these people also have some access to TLEs for classified objects for the same reasons.


Here's where the discussion of whether or not D*/Boeing was asking the D10 TLEs to be held back. I don't know if that's what happened then or is what is happening now, but D11 does seem to be following D10's pattern of new TLE ceasing to be released.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1101433


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> Here's where the discussion of whether or not D*/Boeing was asking the D10 TLEs to be held back. I don't know if that's what happened then or is what is happening now, but D11 does seem to be following D10's pattern of new TLE ceasing to be released.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1101433


Been no new TLE's for D10, D11, or AMC-14 since Wednesday early. Posted the 3 TLE's above. Nothing unique to D10 (yet).


----------



## Interceptor

For anyone interested, the *DirecTV-10 *posts concerning these "slow to arrive" TLEs is located here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91383

To keep you from having to read through all 2,717 posts, the information, including some very good explanations from LameLefty, litzdog911, Sixto, Ken984, and many others begins around page 85 at post 2,100.

Looks like the DirecTV-10 TLE delay was almost 4 days.


----------



## Interceptor

Got a new one, finally!



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08095.73000000 -.00000163  00000-0  00000+0 0   190
2 32729 000.2670 326.7480 1939950 230.0460 165.1560 01.09294169   286




Code:


Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-04 17:31:12
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination	0.267
RA of A. Node	326.748
Eccentricity	0.1939950
Argument of Perigee	230.046
Revs per day	1.09294169
Period	21h 57m 32s (1317.53 min)
Semi-major axis	39 811 km
Perigee x Apogee	25 710 x 41 156 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	165.156
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	19 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Sixto

TLE#19 ... up, up and away again ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE19)
1 32729U 08013A   08095.73000000 -.00000163  00000-0  00000+0 0   190
2 32729 000.2670 326.7480 1939950 230.0460 165.1560 01.09294169   286

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-04-2008 17:31:12[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.267
RA of A. Node		326.748
Eccentricity		0.1939950
Argument of Perigee	230.046
Revs per day		1.09294169
Period			21h 57m 32s (1317.53 min)
Semi-major axis		39 811 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	25 710 x 41 156 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		165.156
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	19 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+63.1 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## mike_augie

Sixto said:


> TLE#19 ... up, up and away again ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE19)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08095.73000000 -.00000163  00000-0  00000+0 0   190
> 2 32729 000.2670 326.7480 1939950 230.0460 165.1560 01.09294169   286
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-04-2008 17:31:12[/B]
> Orbit # at Epoch	28
> Inclination		0.267
> RA of A. Node		326.748
> Eccentricity		0.1939950
> Argument of Perigee	230.046
> Revs per day		1.09294169
> Period			21h 57m 32s (1317.53 min)
> Semi-major axis		39 811 km
> [B]Perigee x Apogee	25 710 x 41 156 km[/B]
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		165.156
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	19 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+63.1 hours, at 16.0 days)
> TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
> TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
> TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
> TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


ok so plain english ..for me....did we get any closer????? thanks... :grin:


----------



## Sixto

mike_augie said:


> ok so plain english ..for me....did we get any closer????? thanks... :grin:


just added picture. YES!

We want 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular) ... is 25,710 x 41,156 km


----------



## mike_augie

Sixto said:


> just added picture. YES!
> 
> We want 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular) ... is 25,710 x 41,156 km
> 
> ok i can see it now thanks....


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> just added picture. YES!
> 
> We want 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular) ... is 25,710 x 41,156 km


Didn't someone tell Boeing "don't cross the streams!"


----------



## cartrivision

Here is another view showing the last few major changes for D11 along with D10.


----------



## JeffBowser

Drat. I wanted to have fun with the conspiracy theorists.


----------



## paulman182

Drew2k said:


> Since you both support opposing viewpoints on this, I'd like to see both of you back your claims with proof, P Smith first, as he is adamant (note the use of bold) that Jeremy W is incorrect.
> Gentlemen ... Proof at the ready .... Go!


I guess this is a little off-topic, but it is hard to see how the guide could work if it were only sent from one transponder on the 101. In a single tuner receiver, what if that tuner was never tuned to that transponder?

The satellite of origin for the guide would be easy to check. Cover up the 101 LNB and reboot your receiver, and see if the guide info comes back or not.


----------



## Sixto

Another TLE #20 ... higher!



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE20)
1 32729U 08013A   08095.74246500 -.00000184  00000-0  00000+0 0   203
2 32729 000.1550 245.0010 1322992 319.7840 160.7830 01.00277621   289

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-04-2008 17:49:08[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.155
RA of A. Node		245.001
Eccentricity		0.1322992
Argument of Perigee	319.784
Revs per day		1.00277621
Period			23h 56m 00s (1436.0 min)
Semi-major axis		42 163 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30,207 x 41,363 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		160.783
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	20 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+.3 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+63.1 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)
TLE#16 (03-31-2008 23:48:51) 17,362 x 41,069 km (+3.4 hours, at 12.3 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+40.8 hours, at 12.1 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## doctor j

Pretty circular (eccentricity just .19), Just off center.



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE19)
1 32729U 08013A   08095.73000000 -.00000163  00000-0  00000+0 0   190
2 32729 000.2670 326.7480 [B]1939950[/B] 230.0460 165.1560 01.09294169   286

Don't remember other sats getting to park with apogee so high.
What say the rocket scientists?

Doctor j


----------



## ziltomil

Interceptor said:


> Got a new one, finally!
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A   08095.73000000 -.00000163  00000-0  00000+0 0   190
> 2 32729 000.2670 326.7480 1939950 230.0460 165.1560 01.09294169   286
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 11
> NORAD #	32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-04 17:31:12
> Orbit # at Epoch	28
> Inclination	0.267
> RA of A. Node	326.748
> Eccentricity	0.1939950
> Argument of Perigee	230.046
> Revs per day	1.09294169
> Period	21h 57m 32s (1317.53 min)
> Semi-major axis	39 811 km
> Perigee x Apogee	25 710 x 41 156 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	165.156
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	19 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A


It looks like I might be right when I said _DirecTV could be placed in 99W by the weekend._

I'm going to run a simulation

Judging by the latest TLE, I think Directv11 is currently doing a manuver. Directv11 should be around apogee right now and it's the best position to raise the perigee to 35786km.


----------



## doctor j

Code:


Name	DirecTV 11_20
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-04 17:49:08
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination	0.155
RA of A. Node	245.001
Eccentricity	0.1322992
Argument of Perigee	319.784
Revs per day	1.00277621
[B]Period	23h 56m 00s (1436.0 min)[/B]
Semi-major axis	42 163 km
[B]Perigee x Apogee	30 207 x 41 363 km[/B]
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	160.783
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	20 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A




Code:


DirecTV 11_20
[B]Lon	95.4893° W[/B]
Lat	0.0947° N
Alt (km)	41 387.040
Azm	199.5°
Elv	49.9°
RA	01h 38m 01s
Decl	-4° 36' 45"
Range (km)	42 706.939
RRt (km/s)	0.011
Vel (km/s)	2.690
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	181.5° (129)
TA	181.1°
Orbit #	28
Mag (illum)	? (1%)
Constellation	Cet

Almost perfectly circular just offset about 5500 Km.
Periodicity exactly right at 1436 minutes.
95 degrees west and drifting west toward parking spot?

Doctor j


----------



## tuff bob

doctor j said:


> Almost perfectly circular just offset about 5500 Km.
> Periodicity exactly right at 1436 minutes.
> 95 degrees west and drifting west toward parking spot?
> Doctor j


I thought if the period is less than 24 hours (1440 mins), the satellite appears to drift east, not west. could easily be wrong tho :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

ziltomil said:



> It looks like I might be right when I said _DirecTV could be placed in 99W by the weekend._
> 
> I'm going to run a simulation
> 
> Judging by the latest TLE, I think Directv11 is currently doing a manuver. Directv11 should be around apogee right now and it's the best position to raise the perigee to 35786km.


Yes, I think that it is currently 20-30 degrees east of its parking spot, so as you and I were speculating earlier this week, it had made it's last pass over Africa and Asia last week, and they now have it in position to back it up and into its final resting spot at 99W.


----------



## Tom_S

I think if the orbital period is less than 24 hours then the sat effectively can't keep up with the earth. So, west drift is the result.


----------



## ziltomil

tuff bob said:


> I thought if the period is less than 24 hours (1440 mins), the satellite appears to drift east, not west. could easily be wrong tho :lol:


No, the earth rotates fully on it's axis in a little less than 24 hours. The reason we think of a day as 24 hours is because the earth goes around the sun. Imagine if the earth absolutely stopped rotating, not tidally locked to the sun. In a 24 hour period the sun would move 4 minutes worth east in the sky.









To put it another way, the earth rotates *366* times a year, and goes around the sun once. The rotation around the sun hides one rotation from our frame of reference and is distributed as those extra 4 minutes a rotation.


----------



## bubbers44

With TL20 the average orbit height is 21,500 miles so they are under 1,000 miles of target altitude. They probably will need to decrease the apogee next by a burn to slow to bring the apogee lower. This will increase the 1.002 revs per day to get into final position for their tweeking burns to make that perfect circle orbit.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> With TL20 the average orbit height is 21,500 miles so they are under 1,000 miles of target altitude. They probably will need to decrease the apogee next by a burn to slow to bring the apogee lower. This will increase the 1.002 revs per day to get into final position for their tweeking burns to make that perfect circle orbit.


The average doesn't really matter. I suspect what will happen next is that the perigee will be raised to the correct level. The apogee will then be reduced by a retrograde burn at perigee to slide it into its parking space.


----------



## Ken984

According to orbitron its at 98.15 right now.



cartrivision said:


> Yes, I think that it is currently 20-30 degrees east of its parking spot, so as you and I were speculating earlier this week, it had made it's last pass over Africa and Asia last week, and they now have it in position to back it up and into its final resting spot at 99W.


----------



## wilmot3

just went past 99


----------



## Sixto

At the current TLE (#20). the orbit will stay within 79° and 110°.

With a few tweaks, we'll be at 99°.


----------



## dms1

wilmot3 said:


> just went past 99


If you do a simulation in Orbitron then the satellite's longitude is now oscillating between 80 degrees and 110 degrees west. This explains why they raised the apogee above the GSO level - it effectively allows them to home in to the correct position.

[Edit] Looks like Sixto worked this out at exactly the same time as me.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> [Edit] Looks like Sixto worked this out at exactly the same time as me.


Still hoping they hand that joystick to ya dms!


----------



## wilmot3

new tle

1 32729U 08013A 08095.70771138 -.00000273 00000-0 00000+0 0 219
2 32729 000.1772 270.4636 1411310 290.6949 152.6459 01.01871100 281


----------



## Sixto

wilmot3 said:


> new tle
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08095.70771138 -.00000273 00000-0 00000+0 0 219
> 2 32729 000.1772 270.4636 1411310 290.6949 152.6459 01.01871100 281


weird, but older date.


----------



## wilmot3

why????? I know but why I don't understand that is what i got when i searched for latest tle


----------



## cartrivision

Ken984 said:


> According to orbitron its at 98.15 right now.


Yes but that's because it's just now at the end of the slowest part of its orbit, so it has been moving westward. As it continues through its perigee it will speed up and move eastward again and at its next apogee it will be about 20 degrees east of D10. At that point, without another burn, it will slowly drift back towards D10 as it again finishes the slowest part of it's orbit, and the above cycle will repeat until the next burn.


----------



## Sixto

Considering the out of order TLE#21 ...


Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+.3 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+.5 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#21 (04-04-2008 16:59:06) 29 456 x 41 232 km (+62.6 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+18.8 hours, at 13.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history

Leaving TLE #20 as the most current.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> weird, but older date.


What's happened today the multiple TLEs with big changes is odd at first blush but it makes sense when you think about it. I suspect that as the orbit changes occur higher and further out, it requires more detailed observation (and longer observing times) to get an accurate TLE.

I suspect the delays are caused by the need to massage and post-process some of the data to ensure it's accurate. And by the time that's occurred, the orbit is different already so a new TLE ends up being generated


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> What's happened today the multiple TLEs with big changes is odd at first blush but it makes sense when you think about it. I suspect that as the orbit changes occur higher and further out, it requires more detailed observation (and longer observing times) to get an accurate TLE.
> 
> I suspect the delays are caused by the need to massage and post-process some of the data to ensure it's accurate. And by the time that's occurred, the orbit is different already so a new TLE ends up being generated


so which would be the most accurate?

the TLE with the higher TLE number? or the TLE with the latest timestamp?

man, learning something everyday!!!!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> so which would be the most accurate?
> 
> the TLE with the higher TLE number? or the TLE with the latest timestamp?
> 
> man, learning something everyday!!!!


I believe the elset with the latest Julian date would be the most current, simply because that's supposed to represent the orbital snapshot as of THAT Julian date. But truth be told, I'm going on instinct here rather than knowledge.


----------



## Sixto

TLE 22 ... similar ... 


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE22)
1 32729U 08013A   08096.00000000 -.00000274  00000-0  00000+0 0   228
2 32729 000.1790 272.2080 1387741 288.8640 259.7070 01.01572942   281

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-05-2008 00:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	28
Inclination		0.179
RA of A. Node		272.208
Eccentricity		0.1387741
Argument of Perigee	288.864
Revs per day		1.01572942
Period			23h 37m 42s (1417.70 min)
Semi-major axis		41 804 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 624 x 41 227 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly		259.707
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	22 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#22 (04-05-2008 00:00:00) 29,624 x 41,227 km (+6.2 hours, at 16.3 days)
TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+.3 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+.5 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#21 (04-04-2008 16:59:06) 29,456 x 41,232 km (+62.6 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## bubbers44

TLE22 is now updated on heavens above site. Quite an education seeing how they maneuver that bird into position. Thanks to everybody here for helping us wanting to learn more how they do it. I have learned so much from all of your inputs. I know the basics but have a lot more to learn. Thanks. Doug


----------



## doctor j

Sixto said:


> TLE 22 ... similar ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE22)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08096.00000000 -.00000274  00000-0  00000+0 0   228
> 2 32729 000.1790 272.2080 1387741 288.8640 259.7070 01.01572942   281
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		04-05-2008 00:00:00
> Orbit # at Epoch	28
> Inclination		0.179
> RA of A. Node		272.208
> Eccentricity		0.1387741
> Argument of Perigee	288.864
> Revs per day		1.01572942
> Period			23h 37m 42s (1417.70 min)
> Semi-major axis		41 804 km
> Perigee x Apogee	29 624 x 41 227 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly		259.707
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	22 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#22 (04-05-2008 00:00:00) 29,624 x 41,227 km (+6.2 hours, at 16.3 days)
> TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+.3 hours, at 16.0 days)
> TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+.5 hours, at 16.0 days)
> TLE#21 (04-04-2008 16:59:06) 29,456 x 41,232 km (+62.6 hours, at 16.0 days)
> TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+7.8 hours, at 13.4 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


Look at pictures!
As I said above: Almost perfect circle just offset center.
I don't think its too far from "HOME".

Doctor j


----------



## P Smith

Drew2k said:


> Since you both support opposing viewpoints on this, I'd like to see both of you back your claims with proof, P Smith first, as he is adamant (note the use of bold) that Jeremy W is incorrect.
> 
> Gentlemen ... Proof at the ready .... Go!


I will go into details if the member will show real knowledge and post number(s) of SCID what carry system tables.


----------



## jacksonm30354

ziltomil said:


> No, the earth rotates fully on it's axis in a little less than 24 hours. The reason we think of a day as 24 hours is because the earth goes around the sun. Imagine if the earth absolutely stopped rotating, not tidally locked to the sun. In a 24 hour period the sun would move 4 minutes worth east in the sky.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To put it another way, the earth rotates *366* times a year, and goes around the sun once. The rotation around the sun hides one rotation from our frame of reference and is distributed as those extra 4 minutes a rotation.


I think you mean "The revolution around the sun hides..."


----------



## smiddy

Sorry moderators, this subject about the satellite transponder/receiver pop up perhaps needs some clarification and perhaps another thread, in maybe the CE forum?

Anyhow, there is a way to determine transponder satellite information via the USB port from the installer documents I have seen. I have yet to try this out to see what it actually does (has anyone here?). 

So to put speculation aside, I'd like to clear up how/when D11's signal can/will be showing up on our receivers, does anyone want to help?

BTW, based on looking at and comparing the three HD receivers I have hooked up, the HR2x's have the same information about 99(s), 103(s), and 103(c). My H20 shows them as 99(b), 103(a), and 103(b). This simply may indicate how they are differently displyed versus what is streamed to the receiver. Also, BTW, if you want to correlate a = c and b = s, this doesn't pass since the 103(a) = 103(s) as is 99(s) = 99(b) from my comparisons.

Anyhow, I just want to understand...please help! :shrug:


----------



## Jeremy W

smiddy said:


> This simply may indicate how they are differently displyed versus what is streamed to the receiver.


Yep, it's just a cosmetic issue. I like the HR2x way better, it would be nice if the H2x was updated to be the same. But I wouldn't expect that until 2009 at the earliest. :sure:


----------



## tuff bob

smiddy said:


> Anyhow, there is a way to determine transponder satellite information via the USB port from the installer documents I have seen. I have yet to try this out to see what it actually does (has anyone here?).


I have gotten the USB port to work for channel changing on the H20, I forgot the document also let you access transponder info. I will have to try a custom string in dtvcontrol and see if its available.

update: it is available. I did a little testing.
channel 307 reports transponder 0x0A (10), 360 reports transponder 0x15 (21) ... looking at the transponder maps in the programming sticky, they're off by 1, so that's close.
channel 359 reports transponder 0x7D (125)


----------



## tuff bob

Tom_S said:


> I think if the orbital period is less than 24 hours then the sat effectively can't keep up with the earth. So, west drift is the result.


I figured it out, its really got nothing to do with the orbital period at all, it's the orbital height thats important ...

at the geostationary orbit distance, a satellite stays over the same longitude - when a satellite is higher than GSO distance, it circles the earth slower than the earth is rotating and appears to to be heading west. At a distance lower than GSO, it circles the earth faster than the earth rotates and appears to be heading east. The latest heavens-above gives a great idea of how they're minimizing the drift west by raising the perigee.


----------



## P Smith

bob, I don't have full list of transponder's ID ( missing 95W and 72.5W), at least seen those IDs: 101W - 1...32, 110W - 90/92/94, 119W-145...155.


----------



## Sixto

TLE#23 ... similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE23)
1 32729U 08013A   08096.53818586 -.00000281  00000-0  00000+0 0   231
2 32729 000.1790 270.6706 1388271 290.4359 096.4686 01.01575748   290

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-05-2008 12:54:59
Orbit # at Epoch	29
Inclination		0.179
RA of A. Node		270.671
Eccentricity		0.1388271
Argument of Perigee	290.436
Revs per day		1.01575748
Period			23h 37m 39s (1417.65 min)
Semi-major axis		41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 622 x 41 228 km
Element number / age	23 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#23 (04-05-2008 12:54:59) 29 622 x 41 228 km (+12.9 hours, at 16.8 days)
TLE#22 (04-05-2008 00:00:00) 29,624 x 41,227 km (+6.2 hours, at 16.3 days)
TLE#20 (04-04-2008 17:49:08) 30,207 x 41,363 km (+.3 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+.5 hours, at 16.0 days)
TLE#21 (04-04-2008 16:59:06) 29,456 x 41,232 km (+62.6 hours, at 16.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## Tiger62

tuff bob said:


> I figured it out, its really got nothing to do with the orbital period at all, it's the orbital height thats important.


Sorry, but the orbital period most definitely determines the direction that the satellite moves with respect to the earth. If it's period is greater than the earth's (ie. slower), then it moves west. If it's period is less than earth's, which D*11 is, then it moves east.


----------



## dms1

Tiger62 said:


> Sorry, but the orbital period most definitely determines the direction that the satellite moves with respect to the earth. If it's period is greater than the earth's (ie. slower), then it moves west. If it's period is less than earth's, which D*11 is, then it moves east.


It's the instantaneous height that determines how the motion appears from the surface of the Earth at any point in time. If the height is lower than the GSO altitude then the satellite will be orbiting faster than the Earth at that point and will appear to move east. When it is above the GSO altitude it will appear to move west because it is orbiting slower than the Earth's rotation. Currently, D11 is oscillating between about 79 and 110 degrees west.


----------



## Tiger62

dms1 said:


> It's the instantaneous height that determines how the motion appears from the surface of the Earth at any point in time. If the height is lower than the GSO altitude then the satellite will be orbiting faster than the Earth at that point and will appear to move east. When it is above the GSO altitude it will appear to move west because it is orbiting slower than the Earth's rotation. Currently, D11 is oscillating between about 79 and 110 degrees west.


For instantaneous movement, that is correct, but over the long haul, it's moving east. Coincidentally , that's the proper direction.


----------



## P Smith

P Smith said:


> I will go into details if the member will show real knowledge and post number(s) of SCID what carry system tables.


Drew, do you need more proof ?  He opted out.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Drew, do you need more proof ?


The only thing you've proven is that once you enter a discussion, nobody else wants to talk about it anymore. Your attitude is horrendous, and I will not carry on any type of discussion with you, about anything. I don't care if it makes me look like I'm wrong, it's not worth it to me.


----------



## Interceptor

TLE 24 Not much change...



Code:


DirecTV-11
1 32729U 08013A   08096.69152342 -.00000282  00000-0  00000+0 0   241
2 32729 000.1805 270.7130 1388301 290.4078 152.5289 01.01577802   297




Code:


Name	DirecTV-11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-05 16:35:47
Orbit # at Epoch	29
Inclination	0.180
RA of A. Node	270.713
Eccentricity	0.1388301
Argument of Perigee	290.408
Revs per day	1.01577802
Period	23h 37m 37s (1417.62 min)
Semi-major axis	41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 621 x 41 228 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	152.529
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	24 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## bubbers44

It looks like a little tweaking in the next few days will have that bird parked.


----------



## smiddy

tuff bob said:


> I have gotten the USB port to work for channel changing on the H20, I forgot the document also let you access transponder info. I will have to try a custom string in dtvcontrol and see if its available.
> 
> update: it is available. I did a little testing.
> channel 307 reports transponder 0x0A (10), 360 reports transponder 0x15 (21) ... looking at the transponder maps in the programming sticky, they're off by 1, so that's close.
> channel 359 reports transponder 0x7D (125)


Thanks for trying this. Is there information related to satellite? Can we assume that 125 might mean some modula 32 of the series of satellites?

Are they off by 1 in the negative direction, like 0 would be 1? Thus 0Ah would actually be 11? And 15h would actually be 22?


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> bob, I don't have full list of transponder's ID ( missing 95W and 72.5W), at least seen those IDs: 101W - 1...32, 110W - 90/92/94, 119W-145...155.


There ya go...is there a list somewhere? How about for 103s (not 103(s) but both 103s)? And 99? (and perhaps the new bird?)


----------



## smiddy

bubbers44 said:


> It looks like a little tweaking in the next few days will have that bird parked.


This is great man, I can't wait!


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> There ya go...is there a list somewhere? How about for 103s (not 103(s) but both 103s)? And 99? (and perhaps the new bird?)


Check gct's threads.
Nope - no system tables from 99 or 103 sats.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bubbers44 said:


> It looks like a little tweaking in the next few days will have that bird parked.


Then the real work begins - testing, testing, and more testing. Hopefully, D11 has solid power and transponder performance, not to mention orbit stability. If so, DirecTV has a nice long-term bird in place.

So far, all things look very positive.


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08097.55573588 -.00000292 00000-0 00000+0 0 258
2 32729 000.1763 271.2687 1388325 289.8731 108.5379 01.01577270 297

Name	#32729
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-06 13:20:15
Orbit # at Epoch	29
Inclination	0.176
RA of A. Node	271.269
Eccentricity	0.1388325
Argument of Perigee	289.873
Revs per day	1.01577270
Period	23h 37m 38s (1417.63 min)
Semi-major axis	41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 621 x 41 228 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	108.538
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	25 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## tuff bob

smiddy said:


> Thanks for trying this. Is there information related to satellite? Can we assume that 125 might mean some modula 32 of the series of satellites?


I'm guessing that might be a possibility.



smiddy said:


> Are they off by 1 in the negative direction, like 0 would be 1? Thus 0Ah would actually be 11? And 15h would actually be 22?


Yep, that's what I think. the transponder ID i get starts at transponder 0.

If someone would like to put together a list of HD channel numbers, i could maybe write a script to retrieve the transponder IDs


----------



## P Smith

bob, the numbers what you getting from USB-serial interface could be tpn ID minus 1, not actual IDs. But ch 359 info tell me there is something different, because it located on 101W and tpn IDs must be low then 32.


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> bob, the numbers what you getting from USB-serial interface could be tpn ID minus 1, not actual IDs. But ch 359 info tell me there is something different, because it located on 101W and tpn IDs must be low then 32.


359 is also available from D10 in HD.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So far, all things look very positive.


They don't look positive, they look nominal. Correct terminology, please.


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

You're missing the accent and you don't sound quite as sexy as the original.


----------



## Jeremy W

HDTVsportsfan said:


> You're missing the accent and you don't sound quite as sexy as the original.


_*Nominal*_

In my best impression of our favorite SeaLaunch employee!


----------



## HDTVsportsfan

Well....the pink text is a start. 

But the avatar has to go.


----------



## Jeremy W

HDTVsportsfan said:


> But the avatar has to go.


You'll have to put your hand over it, because that's me!


----------



## davemayo

Jeremy W said:


> You'll have to put your hand over it, because that's me!


You don't have a nose?


----------



## bubbers44

Dorks don't have noses.


----------



## DCappy

Is it wishful thinking or is D11 almost home.
I'm watching http://www.n2yo.com/


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> Is it wishful thinking or is D11 almost home.
> I'm watching http://www.n2yo.com/


That site has been using several day old TLE data all weekend. It has just recently been updated. D11 has at all times been oscillating within 0 to 30 degrees of it's final orbital slot since late last week.


----------



## inkahauts

I think you might be right.. We'll find out for sure soon enough... It really depends on if they've made any burns to stabilize its movement relative to, well, my home!!! ( I so don't want to start up that discussion again)


----------



## ub1934

inkahauts said:


> I think you might be right.. We'll find out for sure soon enough... It really depends on if they've made any burns to stabilize its movement relative to, well, my home!!! ( I so don't want to start up that discussion again)


 99.41 , speed 0.01 mps


----------



## DCappy

Guess not, it's speeding up and below altitiude.


----------



## tj177mmi

Based on previous posts, I think it'll be about another month before its close to GSO.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The level of knowledge and tracking on this is amazing.

Who needs NASA when we have DBSTalk!!!


----------



## Groundhog45

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The level of knowledge and tracking on this is amazing.
> 
> Who needs NASA when we have DBSTalk!!!


Second that.


----------



## cartrivision

tj177mmi said:


> Based on previous posts, I think it'll be about another month before its close to GSO.


No. It's very close now. It's already almost exactly geosynchronous, doing almost exactly one revolution around the earth per day, matching the earth's rotation. It will probably be geostationary within a week, two at the most.


----------



## inkahauts

DCappy said:


> Guess not, it's speeding up and below altitiude.


A small burn to push its altitude a little higher will slow it down, and could pop it into location. The question is, when will that small burn take place....


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> Guess not, it's speeding up and below altitiude.


Its constantly changing speed is a factor of its orbit not yet being exactly circular. At its current orbit, over the course of exactly one day, it will speed up in an easterly direction, then slow down to zero, then speed up in a westerly direction, and again slow down to zero, and repeat that pattern. The net effect of this back and forth east-west travel is the satellite staying over one relatively small area of earth until the orbit is adjusted further to make it stay exactly over the same exact spot at around 99 degrees longitude.


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> Its constantly changing speed is a factor of its orbit not yet being exactly circular. At its current orbit, over the course of exactly one day, it will speed up in an easterly direction, then slow down to zero, then speed up in a westerly direction, and again slow down to zero, and repeat that pattern. The net effect of this back and forth east-west travel is the satellite staying over one relatively small area of earth until the orbit is adjusted further to make it stay exactly over the same exact spot at around 99 degrees longitude.


I guess this oscillation is why there is actually a distinction between a satellite's orbit being "geosynchronous," or having an orbital period equal to the rate of the earth's axial rotation. But may be circular or elliptical at any inclination. And "geostationary," which means its movement is fixed with respect to one geographical spot on the earth. Which is of course, only possible for circular orbits at zero degree inclination or equatorial. D11's orbit is technically "geosynchronous" now (or almost so), but obviously not yet "geostationary."


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> I guess this oscillation is why there is actually a distinction between a satellite's orbit being "geosynchronous," or having an orbital period equal to the rate of the earth's axial rotation. But may be circular or elliptical at any inclination. And "geostationary," which means its movement is fixed with respect to one geographical spot on the earth. Which is of course, only possible for circular orbits at zero degree inclination or equatorial. D11's orbit is technically "geosynchronous" now (or almost so), but obviously not yet "geostationary."


Exactly right. Be careful though - when I've commented about people (not in this thread) using 'geosynchronous' when they actually meant 'geostationary' I was moaned at for being too pedantic.


----------



## Drew2k

HoTat2 said:


> I guess this oscillation is why there is actually a distinction between a satellite's orbit being "geosynchronous," or having an orbital period equal to the rate of the earth's axial rotation.


Ok, be gentle with me, but this just prompted a thought and a question ...

The Earth's axis is tilted and thus we have seasons. The sat in GSO is in a fixed position above the equator, but how does the sat remain fixed when the axis of the Earth changes throughout the year? (See - I don't even now how to ask the question properly ... hopefully someone understands what I'm asking.)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Ok, be gentle with me, but this just prompted a thought and a question ...
> 
> The Earth's axis is tilted and thus we have seasons. The sat in GSO is in a fixed position above the equator, but how does the sat remain fixed when the axis of the Earth changes throughout the year? (See - I don't even now how to ask the question properly ... hopefully someone understands what I'm asking.)


I thiink I do - the fact that I do is almost scary. :eek2: :lol:

My interpretation of your question is - Since the Earth adjusts on its axis throughout the year, how does the sat adjust to parallel these changes to remain in the same "position"?


----------



## man_rob

Drew2k said:


> Ok, be gentle with me, but this just prompted a thought and a question ...
> 
> The Earth's axis is tilted and thus we have seasons. The sat in GSO is in a fixed position above the equator, but how does the sat remain fixed when the axis of the Earth changes throughout the year? (See - I don't even now how to ask the question properly ... hopefully someone understands what I'm asking.)


The Earth's tilt/axis doesn't really change. The position of the Earth in relationship to the sun changes.


----------



## dms1

Drew2k said:


> Ok, be gentle with me, but this just prompted a thought and a question ...
> 
> The Earth's axis is tilted and thus we have seasons. The sat in GSO is in a fixed position above the equator, but how does the sat remain fixed when the axis of the Earth changes throughout the year? (See - I don't even now how to ask the question properly ... hopefully someone understands what I'm asking.)


You can ignore the rotation of the earth and its axis. As a good first approximation when studying the gravitation effects of an extended body, you treat it as a point mass located at the center of mass of the object. A point, by definition, has no rotation or direction.

Another way to think of it is that you are only interested in the Earth and the satellite. You can think of the Earth being stationary in space and everything else (including the Sun) moving around it in some complex but virtually irrelevant way.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

man_rob said:


> The Earth's tilt/axis doesn't really change. The position of the Earth in relationship to the sun changes.


Thanks for the explanation....my science class knowledge is a bit rusty. Now I recall this as well.


----------



## man_rob

An illustration


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks for the explanations, all.

As hdtvfan001 said ... it's been a long time since General Science class! 

The illustration particularly helps, man_rob, for now I can perfectly visualize the satellite parked above the equator and can see that it would remain so, spinning about the earth, but not being affected in any other way by the axis.


----------



## Tiger62

Musings on a Monday morning...

As has been discussed previously, the period of D*11 being slightly less than the earth's and it's orbit not being exactly circular results in it's motion, relative to the earth, oscillating in an east-west direction, with that oscillatory band moving to the east at a rate of about 5.66 degrees per day. That means that, in it's current orbit, it will "circle" the earth (and D10) in approximately 63 days. I don't know how far west of it's intended longitude (99.2W) it's oscillatory window takes it now(it's probably posted somewhere in this thread, but I didn't dig it out) but isn't it reasonable to think that a final burn(s) will take place at some time that it's west of it's intended longitude? If it's westernmost position is still east of 99.2, it SEEMS reasonable to expect that it'll be quite a while before it's actually "parked". Does that make sense, or am I just all wet?  

It's "average" orbital altitude right now is only a couple of hundred miles lower than necessary for geosynchronous, so it won't take much, but are we in for a long wait? Inquiring minds,...and stuff.:shrug:


----------



## HoTat2

Drew2k said:


> Ok, be gentle with me, but this just prompted a thought and a question ...
> 
> The Earth's axis is tilted and thus we have seasons. The sat in GSO is in a fixed position above the equator, but how does the sat remain fixed when the axis of the Earth changes throughout the year? (See - I don't even now how to ask the question properly ... hopefully someone understands what I'm asking.)


With the exception of an extremely slow axial precession, the earth's axis does not change throughout the year. But remains fixed at an angle of 23.5 degrees ("obliquity of the ecliptic") with respect to its orbital plane ("the ecliptic") about the sun. Therefore as the earth revolves around the sun, the angle at which the sun's rays strike the earth change which causes the seasons to change.


----------



## dms1

Tiger62 said:


> Musings on a Monday morning...
> 
> As has been discussed previously, the period of D*11 being slightly less than the earth's and it's orbit not being exactly circular results in it's motion, relative to the earth, oscillating in an east-west direction, with that oscillatory band moving to the east at a rate of about 5.66 degrees per day. That means that, in it's current orbit, it will "circle" the earth (and D10) in approximately 63 days. I don't know how far west of it's intended longitude (99.2W) it's oscillatory window takes it now(it's probably posted somewhere in this thread, but I didn't dig it out) but isn't it reasonable to think that a final burn(s) will take place at some time that it's west of it's intended longitude? If it's westernmost position is still east of 99.2, it SEEMS reasonable to expect that it'll be quite a while before it's actually "parked". Does that make sense, or am I just all wet?
> 
> It's "average" orbital altitude right now is only a couple of hundred miles lower than necessary for geosynchronous, so it won't take much, but are we in for a long wait? Inquiring minds,...and stuff.:shrug:


The average altitude doesn't really come into play. Currently, the apogee is above GSO-level and the perigee is below. This is what causes the oscillating behavior. However, the heights are not symmetrical around the GSO-level which is why the general motion is drifting east. It will require at least two burns to circularize the orbit at GSO. Each burn (if done right ) will reduce the range of oscillation. Obviously this approach only works if the target longitude is within the range covered by the oscillation. Therefore, I expect to see this final maneuvering very soon otherwise the window will have been missed and they would either need to wait a long time or use further burns to expand the oscillation range again. (This of course assumes that they are targeting 99.2W directly.)


----------



## katzeye

I just wanted to add to the thank you to all of the exceptionally smart people out there. You have all made this an educational experience for me. 
Sorry if this is a repeat question, but I don't recall see it elsewhere. What is the testing location of D11? Or is is just going to be parked in its final location?


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> (This of course assumes that they are targeting 99.2W directly.)


They will be, or so close as to make little practical difference. So far as I know, no one has turned up FCC docs requesting authorization to park and operate D11 at a test slot, as was used for D10, so it's probably safe to assume 99.2 is the actual target.


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> They will be, or so close as to make little practical difference. So far as I know, no one has turned up FCC docs requesting authorization to park and operate D11 at a test slot, as was used for D10, so it's probably safe to assume 99.2 is the actual target.


I think you may have forgotten your earlier dialog with Sixto LameLefty 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512290&postcount=493

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512302&postcount=495

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512315&postcount=497

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512324&postcount=498


----------



## bubbers44

The post 1145 illustration also explains why it takes 366 revolutions of actual earth rotation to complete a 365 day year since our year is relative to the sun, not the universe. That one revolution around eats up one day. Four minutes a day is needed to make noon time the same throughout the year.


----------



## Tiger62

dms1 said:


> The average altitude doesn't really come into play. Currently, the apogee is above GSO-level and the perigee is below. This is what causes the oscillating behavior.


I'm aware of what causes the oscillation. My comment about the "average" altitude was simply to point out that not much energy would have to be expended to raise the perigee and lower the apogee to achieve the desired orbit. (Average altitude really has no meaning...That's why I put it in quotes )


----------



## pilotboy72

cartrivision said:


> No. It's very close now. It's already almost exactly geosynchronous, doing almost exactly one revolution around the earth per day, matching the earth's rotation. It will probably be geostationary within a week, two at the most.


Quick question on this, though. If the satellite is oscillating somewhere over it's intended geostationary position, what would be the reasoning for delaying the final maneuvering to park it?


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> I think you may have forgotten your earlier dialog with Sixto LameLefty


Yep, it does appear that it's going directly to 99.225°. Haven't seen any filings to contradict so far.


----------



## dms1

dms1 said:


> Obviously this approach only works if the target longitude is within the range covered by the oscillation. Therefore, I expect to see this final maneuvering very soon otherwise the window will have been missed and they would either need to wait a long time or use further burns to expand the oscillation range again. (This of course assumes that they are targeting 99.2W directly.)


Replying to my own post I know, but I've just thought about this a bit more. If they do the perigee raising burn first then the overall drift will become westward. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the oscillating window moves somewhat east of the target location because it will move back after the burn-at-apogee.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> I think you may have forgotten your earlier dialog with Sixto LameLefty
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512290&postcount=493
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512302&postcount=495
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512315&postcount=497
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1512324&postcount=498


Nope I didn't forget that discussion. Those filings don't refer to a test slot, just operating slots. 

I did forget about the minor tweak to D11's slot, but again, the difference is pretty small (well below the tracking precision of most of the consumer/hobbyist type software trackers we're all using).


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Replying to my own post I know, but I've just thought about this a bit more. If they do the perigee raising burn first then the overall drift will become westward. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the oscillating window moves somewhat east of the target location because it will move back after the burn-at-apogee.


I agree, that sounds plausible. Then the retrograde burn at perigee to lower the apogee back to GSO and voila - parked at 99.225 W (assuming that the phasing is right of course.)


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> I agree, that sounds plausible. Then the retrograde burn at perigee to lower the apogee back to GSO and voila - parked at 99.225 W (assuming that the phasing is right of course.)


Assuming that they pre-planned this back-and-forth type parking maneuver (which I'm sure they would have done) then I wonder why they had the satellite delivered to GTO rather than launching to a higher apogee to start with. I would have thought it would only be a few seconds more burn on the rocket final stage to get to the higher apogee rather than getting there with the satellite's own motor (and fuel).


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Assuming that they pre-planned this back-and-forth type parking maneuver (which I'm sure they would have done) then I wonder why they had the satellite delivered to GTO rather than launching to a higher apogee to start with. I would have thought it would only be a few seconds more burn on the rocket final stage to get to the higher apogee rather than getting there with the satellite's own motor (and fuel).


Good question. It's times like this that I wish we had a lurker from Boeing or Sea-Launch on hand to slip us some solid operational info to replace our informed speculation.


----------



## Interceptor

Not much change on TLE 26:



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08097.67592258 -.00000293  00000-0  00000+0 0   268
2 32729 000.1754 270.9592 1388275 290.1864 152.4891 01.01577838   303




Code:


Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-06 16:13:19
Orbit # at Epoch	30
Inclination	0.175
RA of A. Node	270.959
Eccentricity	0.1388275
Argument of Perigee	290.186
Revs per day	1.01577838
Period	23h 37m 37s (1417.62 min)
Semi-major axis	41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 621 x 41 228 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	152.489
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	26 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## steveken

Wow, 26 is pretty much the same. Kinda useless really. Unless there is something to be gotten from the info at RA of A. Node. The Inclination and Period are just a tiny tiny different.


----------



## dms1

steveken said:


> Wow, 26 is pretty much the same. Kinda useless really. Unless there is something to be gotten from the info at RA of A. Node. The Inclination and Period are just a tiny tiny different.


TLEs for any object are released at regular intervals (a few days at most) or after an orbital change. This is to allow accurate orbital predictions to be extrapolated without excessive errors creeping in. Therefore, just because a TLE is released it doesn't mean that anything has changed.


----------



## Drew2k

LameLefty said:


> Good question. It's times like this that I wish we had a lurker from Boeing or Sea-Launch on hand to slip us some solid operational info to replace our informed speculation.


I wonder if the Sea-Launch people even pay attention after the handover to Boeing for maneuvering? The Sea-Launch staff are probably prepping for the next launch, including review of this launch plus all calculations for the next and whatever else it is they do between launches!


----------



## bubbers44

They know exactly where in the orbit to burn to increase the altitude and optimize the circle. They probably are waiting for the easterly drift to position it as close to it's final spot as possible. Of coarse it is impossible to make one burn do both since only about once every day does it pass that part of the elliptical orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

Drew2k said:


> I wonder if the Sea-Launch people even pay attention after the handover to Boeing for maneuvering? The Sea-Launch staff are probably prepping for the next launch, including review of this launch plus all calculations for the next and whatever else it is they do between launches!


True, but they might be able to explain why they just deliver the bird to a GTO rather than to the higher orbit D11 is in now. I _suspect_ the reason is simply costs and contracts - most launch service providers use standardized contracts and pricing quotes based on delivery of x amount of mass to GTO, period. And since the satellite is designed for orbital maneuvering on its own and subject to being launched by any of the three or four commercially-available heavy launchers out there - Ariane 5, Zenit, Proton or conceivably even Atlas V I guess, each of which has differing capabilities), it's probably "cleaner" operationally for the sat operators to just do it all themselves from GTO.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> True, but they might be able to explain why they just deliver the bird to a GTO rather than to the higher orbit D11 is in now. I _suspect_ the reason is simply costs and contracts - most launch service providers use standardized contracts and pricing quotes based on delivery of x amount of mass to GTO, period. And since the satellite is designed for orbital maneuvering on its own and subject to being launched by any of the three or four commercially-available heavy launchers out there - Ariane 5, Zenit, Proton or conceivably even Atlas V I guess, each of which has differing capabilities), it's probably "cleaner" operationally for the sat operators to just do it all themselves from GTO.


Interestingly, it looks like Sea Launch have previously launched one satellite to above GTO (Gallaxy IIIC - http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/past_g3c.htm). Everything else has been at or just below GTO.


----------



## ziltomil

If they raise the perigee to 35786km in the next hour they could start the process that will have directv-11 parked by wednesday.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Interestingly, it looks like Sea Launch have previously launched one satellite to above GTO (Gallaxy IIIC - http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/past_g3c.htm). Everything else has been at or just below GTO.


Hmm . . . D11 had a launch mass roughly ~2500 lbs greater than Galaxy IIIC. That could've been the reason, along with the fact that the satellite basically IS capable of all the necessary post-GTO maneuvers itself (again, having been designed to be generically compatible with all the "usual suspects" among the heavy/GTO class launchers in the market).


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08098.66032051 -.00000303 00000-0 00000+0 0 271
2 32729 000.1731 271.3803 1388323 289.7858 152.4498 01.01577611 312 

Name D11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-07 15:50:51
Orbit # at Epoch	31
Inclination	0.173
RA of A. Node	271.380
Eccentricity	0.1388323
Argument of Perigee	289.786
Revs per day	1.01577611
Period	23h 37m 38s (1417.63 min)
Semi-major axis	41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 621 x 41 228 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	152.450
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	27 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## jefbal99

Very little change


----------



## Tiger62

OK, since the entire oscillatory window of D11 is now east of 99.2 and increasingly east by 5.66 degrees per day, what will be the next orbital adjustment? Will they just wait 60-odd days for it to get back around to the desired longitude, or will they do something more radical?


----------



## bubbers44

They stopped it to park it. They wouldn't slow it down that much and wait for it to eventually get back in position. It can be backed up very easily.


----------



## cartrivision

Tiger62 said:


> OK, since the entire oscillatory window of D11 is now east of 99.2 and increasingly east by 5.66 degrees per day, what will be the next orbital adjustment? Will they just wait 60-odd days for it to get back around to the desired longitude, or will they do something more radical?


No, it's highly unlikely that D11 will ever pass over Africa and Asia ever again. The next burn will probably raise its perigee and make it start to slowly drift westward, and very soon after that they will probably lower the apogee, leaving it very near if its final destination and very near to a circular geostationary orbit. Once they've achieved that, it's just a mater of tweaking the orbit to be perfectly circular, and tweaking the altitude temporarily to make D11 slowly drift east or west to the correct longitude.


----------



## generalpatton78

I know this is off topic but is it possible to spot D10 or later D11 with a telescope? I have a small ETX that has "go to" and many sat objects but the sats never seem to be passing over. I would think with D10 and soon D11 being at a single slot over NA I might be able to spot them around sundown or so. Does anybody here have experience with this?


----------



## Jeremy W

generalpatton78 said:


> I know this is off topic but is it possible to spot D10 or later D11 with a telescope?


I don't think it's possible.


----------



## PoitNarf

generalpatton78 said:


> I know this is off topic but is it possible to spot D10 or later D11 with a telescope? I have a small ETX that has "go to" and many sat objects but the sats never seem to be passing over. I would think with D10 and soon D11 being at a single slot over NA I might be able to spot them around sundown or so. Does anybody here have experience with this?


I would imagine it would be possible before sunrise or after sunset when it's still dark enough to see stars but light from the sun has just hit the orbital altitude to actually illuminate the satellite. Probably need a pretty advanced telescope though. It would be cool if someone could actually snap a picture of one of these guys in orbit 

Edit: I was curious enough to do some quick google searching. What I found mostly has to do with satellites that are streaking across the night sky. The NASA article talks briefly about geosynchronous satellites, but says that they are not visible with the naked eye (obviously), but it makes no mention if you can spot those with a telescope. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to though.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970414f.html

http://members.aol.com/jwholtz/sat/background.htm

Edit 2: Some more info on photographing geosynchronous satellites: http://www.mistisoftware.com/astronomy/FSQ106_GeoSynSat.htm

And here's the smoking gun, a power point slideshow that actually shows a picture of DirecTV-1R in it, although extremely tiny (on slide #20): www.astro.umd.edu/openhouse/programs/OH_ppts/060705_EW.ppt


----------



## dms1

generalpatton78 said:


> I know this is off topic but is it possible to spot D10 or later D11 with a telescope? I have a small ETX that has "go to" and many sat objects but the sats never seem to be passing over. I would think with D10 and soon D11 being at a single slot over NA I might be able to spot them around sundown or so. Does anybody here have experience with this?


Let's do some maths. 

According to Boeing, excluding the solar panels (which would be hard to spot unless they were at exactly the right angle), the largest dimension of the 702 satellite is 8 m. When in GSO, it is 35786 km or 35786000 m from the Earth. If we assume that for a small angle of subtention the arc length is the same as the chord length (a very close approximation in this case), the angle subtended by the satellite on the Earth's surface is 8/35786000 radians, or roughly 7.7*10^-4 minutes of arc. The best-case angular resolution of the human eye is typically taken to be one minute of arc. Therefore, for the satellite to be visible, the telescope's magnifying power would need to be 1/7.7*10^-4 = ~1300.

A 1300x magnification is certainly achievable, but I believe several times greater than that offered by a typical hobbyist telescope. Further, one needs to consider the intensity of the object. I would have thought it very unlikely that there would be enough reflected light from the satellite to be detectable on Earth by the human eye directly, especially when one considers that the smallest angular resolution of the eye requires a greater light level because only the cones in the retina can handle such a small resolution and they need more light to be activated than the rods. Therefore, I suspect that you could see a GSO satellite from the Earth, but only with an above average telescope and either a sensitive camera or a photomultiplier.


----------



## Herdfan

dms1 said:


> Let's do some maths.


You just made my head hurt.

That reminded me of my last semester in college when a buddy talked me into taking an Astronomy class with him instead of Geology for indiots. It ended up being a 400 level physics class and not learning the names of the planets.

The professor must have felt sorry for me as he knew I was in WAY over my head and he gave me a C.


----------



## mobandit

PoitNarf said:


> I would imagine it would be possible before sunrise or after sunset when it's still dark enough to see stars but light from the sun has just hit the orbital altitude to actually illuminate the satellite. Probably need a pretty advanced telescope though. It would be cool if someone could actually snap a picture of one of these guys in orbit
> 
> Edit: I was curious enough to do some quick google searching. What I found mostly has to do with satellites that are streaking across the night sky. The NASA article talks briefly about geosynchronous satellites, but says that they are not visible with the naked eye (obviously), but it makes no mention if you can spot those with a telescope. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to though.
> 
> http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970414f.html
> 
> http://members.aol.com/jwholtz/sat/background.htm
> 
> Edit 2: Some more info on photographing geosynchronous satellites: http://www.mistisoftware.com/astronomy/FSQ106_GeoSynSat.htm
> 
> And here's the smoking gun, a power point slideshow that actually shows a picture of DirecTV-1R in it, although extremely tiny (on slide #20): www.astro.umd.edu/openhouse/programs/OH_ppts/060705_EW.ppt


There are some satellite tracking telescopes...however most of them are used for classified military/intelligence purposes...they probably won't publish their pictures.


----------



## Fish Man

dms1 said:


> Let's do some maths.
> 
> According to Boeing, excluding the solar panels (which would be hard to spot unless they were at exactly the right angle), the largest dimension of the 702 satellite is 8 m. When in GSO, it is 35786 km or 35786000 m from the Earth. If we assume that for a small angle of subtention the arc length is the same as the chord length (a very close approximation in this case), the angle subtended by the satellite on the Earth's surface is 8/35786000 radians, or roughly 7.7*10^-4 minutes of arc. The best-case angular resolution of the human eye is typically taken to be one minute of arc. Therefore, for the satellite to be visible, the telescope's magnifying power would need to be 1/7.7*10^-4 = ~1300.
> 
> A 1300x magnification is certainly achievable, but I believe several times greater than that offered by a typical hobbyist telescope. Further, one needs to consider the intensity of the object. I would have thought it very unlikely that there would be enough reflected light from the satellite to be detectable on Earth by the human eye directly, especially when one considers that the smallest angular resolution of the eye requires a greater light level because only the cones in the retina can handle such a small resolution and they need more light to be activated than the rods. Therefore, I suspect that you could see a GSO satellite from the Earth, but only with an above average telescope and either a sensitive camera or a photomultiplier.


Considering all that, it becomes pretty amazing that affordable consumer equipment can reliably receive an RF signal with a power of about 200 watts (early DirecTV satellites were about 100 watts per transponder) beamed from such a small and distant device, doesn't it?

Very cool. IMHO.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> And since the satellite is designed for orbital maneuvering on its own and subject to being launched by any of the three or four commercially-available heavy launchers out there - Ariane 5, Zenit, Proton or conceivably even Atlas V I guess, each of which has differing capabilities), it's probably "cleaner" operationally for the sat operators to just do it all themselves from GTO.


The Boeing 702 platform was only _recently modified_ for use with other than the Proton M and Zenit S3 platforms. I don't think this capability has been tested yet. Due to the mass and light fuel load it needed these platforms to get it to GTO.


----------



## generalpatton78

Thanks for all the responses guys. I've seen a sat before while looking at Saturn in the early evening and my "go to" manual states sun down as a great time to find them. My scope actually has a system where you can set up a alarm for events like sat passes and what not. I guess the one listed in the telescope computers are allot bigger then the D* sats.


----------



## dms1

generalpatton78 said:


> I guess the one listed in the telescope computers are allot bigger then the D* sats.


More likely just a lot closer (by a couple of orders of magnitude). The Boeing 702 is actually pretty big as far as satellites go.


----------



## PoitNarf

dms1 said:


> More likely just a lot closer (by a couple of orders of magnitude). The Boeing 702 is actually pretty big as far as satellites go.


Yeah, from what I've read the 702's are beasts, just about as big as they come as far as commercial satellites go. Any sats seen with your naked eye or a telescope streaking across the sky was most definitely not a geosynchronous sat.


----------



## tuff bob

TLE 29 up



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08099.45286968 -.00000309  00000-0  00000+0 0   295
2 32729 000.1702 270.8665 1388186 290.3184 082.2412 01.01575624   315


----------



## grump

tuff bob said:


> TLE 29 up
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08099.45286968 -.00000309  00000-0  00000+0 0   295
> 2 32729 000.1702 270.8665 1388186 290.3184 082.2412 01.01575624   315


Anybody with the software want to make us a pretty picture?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> TLE 29 up ...


Yep, similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE29)
1 32729U 08013A   08099.45286968 -.00000309  00000-0  00000+0 0   295
2 32729 000.1702 270.8665 1388186 290.3184 082.2412 01.01575624   315

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-08-2008 10:52:07
Orbit # at Epoch	31
Inclination		0.170
RA of A. Node		270.866
Eccentricity		0.1388186
Argument of Perigee	290.318
Revs per day		1.01575624
Period			23h 37m 39s (1417.65 min)
Semi-major axis		41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 622 x 41 228 km
Element number / age	29 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)
TLE#28 (04-07-2008 15:50:52) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+0.0 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+23.6 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#26 (04-06-2008 16:13:19) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+2.9 hours, at 17.9 days)
TLE#25 (04-06-2008 13:20:15) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+20.7 hours, at 17.8 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history


----------



## Sixto

grump said:


> Anybody with the software want to make us a pretty picture?


picture same as post#2 ... no change in a while ...


----------



## dms1

PoitNarf said:


> Any sats seen with your naked eye or a telescope streaking across the sky was most definitely not a geosynchronous sat.


Indeed, if they are streaking across the sky they can't be geostationary. 

The lower a satellite is the brighter it will appear and the faster it will move - both factors that make it more visible. The ISS is easily seen with the naked eye.


----------



## grump

Sixto said:


> picture same as post#2 ... no change in a while ...


Ah. Well, you can't blame a grump for being hopeful.


----------



## dwrats_56

*Can you see them??*

I posted this image in the DirecTV 10 launch forum and thought it was KOOL.

And thought it would be worth posting again. I don't know about the telescope used to generate the image, but here goes.

http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/nso_geosats.jpg


----------



## cajunbug

dms1 said:


> Let's do some maths.
> 
> According to Boeing, excluding the solar panels (which would be hard to spot unless they were at exactly the right angle), the largest dimension of the 702 satellite is 8 m. When in GSO, it is 35786 km or 35786000 m from the Earth. If we assume that for a small angle of subtention the arc length is the same as the chord length (a very close approximation in this case), the angle subtended by the satellite on the Earth's surface is 8/35786000 radians, or roughly 7.7*10^-4 minutes of arc. The best-case angular resolution of the human eye is typically taken to be one minute of arc. Therefore, for the satellite to be visible, the telescope's magnifying power would need to be 1/7.7*10^-4 = ~1300.
> 
> A 1300x magnification is certainly achievable, but I believe several times greater than that offered by a typical hobbyist telescope. Further, one needs to consider the intensity of the object. I would have thought it very unlikely that there would be enough reflected light from the satellite to be detectable on Earth by the human eye directly, especially when one considers that the smallest angular resolution of the eye requires a greater light level because only the cones in the retina can handle such a small resolution and they need more light to be activated than the rods. Therefore, I suspect that you could see a GSO satellite from the Earth, but only with an above average telescope and either a sensitive camera or a photomultiplier.


On that note....I think I'll back over to the "What's on Toon Disney HD tonight" forum.....


----------



## Indiana627

dwrats_56 said:


> *Can you see them??*
> 
> I posted this image in the DirecTV 10 launch forum and thought it was KOOL.
> 
> And thought it would be worth posting again. I don't know about the telescope used to generate the image, but here goes.
> 
> http://epod.usra.edu/archive/images/nso_geosats.jpg


That would be cool if they had a real high res version so you could really blow it up without losing clarity.


----------



## rotomike

Fish Man said:


> Considering all that, it becomes pretty amazing that affordable consumer equipment can reliably receive an RF signal with a power of about 200 watts (early DirecTV satellites were about 100 watts per transponder) beamed from such a small and distant device, doesn't it?
> 
> Very cool. IMHO.


Hughesnet sends hi-speed internet info at 1 watt so thats pretty small wattage of course cell phones are 1/2 watt.

mike


----------



## rotomike

Jeremy W said:


> I don't think it's possible.


this guy did it with a 200 mm f4 lens on my Nikon FM piggybacked on my Meade LX-200 telescope.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.machunter.org/images/hap_geosyncs.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.machunter.org/hap_geosyncs.html&h=431&w=640&sz=61&hl=en&start=31&um=1&tbnid=ueZjMQ09foqoYM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgeosynchronous%2Bsatellites%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26sa%3DN


----------



## ziltomil

From what I have read, a geostationary sat can become visible to the naked eye, and it's only in shadow for an hour during equinox. Also, the guy doing the math used the wrong figures. Directv-11 is 48 meters in diameter.


----------



## dwrats_56

Indiana627 said:


> That would be cool if they had a real high res version so you could really blow it up without losing clarity.


I agree Indiana627, a high res version would be REALLY KOOL but this is the best I could find. What I really like about the image are the labels.


----------



## PoitNarf

ziltomil said:


> Also, the guy doing the math used the wrong figures. Directv-11 is 48 meters in diameter.


Not including the solar panels it's not:



dms1 said:


> According to Boeing, excluding the solar panels (which would be hard to spot unless they were at exactly the right angle), the largest dimension of the 702 satellite is 8 m.


----------



## dms1

ziltomil said:


> From what I have read, a geostationary sat can become visible to the naked eye, and it's only in shadow for an hour during equinox. Also, the guy doing the math used the wrong figures. Directv-11 is 48 meters in diameter.


 When I used a dimension of 8 m I did say I was ignoring the solar panels. These are very wide, but also very thin, and are moved to keep them facing the sun. Therefore, there will only be certain specific times when their profile as projected on the Earth is large enough for the panels to be visible. From the various photos people have posted here it does look like they all rely on viewing the satellite in one of these periods such that the reflection from the solar panels can be seen, rather than the body of the satellite itself.


----------



## ziltomil

dms1 said:


> When I used a dimension of 8 m I did say I was ignoring the solar panels. These are very wide, but also very thin, and are moved to keep them facing the sun. Therefore, there will only be certain specific times when their profile as projected on the Earth is large enough for the panels to be visible. From the various photos people have posted here it does look like they all rely on viewing the satellite in one of these periods such that the reflection from the solar panels can be seen, rather than the body of the satellite itself.


That's bad rationale to exclude the solar panels. 1) The only time a satellite can be visible is once it's night in your area of observation, thus a geosat will be reflecting light to earth 2)When determining a space object will be visble you use the biggest dimension. This is because we aren't going to resolve the actual satellite but the glare the satellite reflects, and 48 meters gives you a greater angular diameter to discern that glare.


----------



## LameLefty

ziltomil said:


> That's bad rationale to exclude the solar panels. 1) The only time a satellite can be visible is once it's night in your area of observation, thus a geosat will be reflecting light to earth 2)When determining a space object will be visble you use the biggest dimension. This is because we aren't going to resolve the actual satellite but the glare the satellite reflects, and 48 meters gives you a greater angular diameter to discern that glare.


Your logic is faulty. A satellite in GSO will be eclipsed by the earth a good deal of the time. When it's not eclipsed (e.g., pre-dawn and post-sunset) the PV arrays will be perpendicular to the sun. There is going to be very little light scattered and reflected toward the surface of the Earth.


----------



## ziltomil

Actually, most of the year geosats aren't eclipsed by earth at all. Only around equinox are they eclipsed, and only for 60 minutes max at equinox.

LOL, I did some calcs and last night was the last night a sat in geo will get totally eclipsed till next equinox. It lasted like 16 minutes.


----------



## Fish Man

ziltomil said:


> Actually, most of the year geosats aren't eclipsed by earth at all. Only around equinox are they eclipsed, and only for 60 minutes max at equinox.
> 
> LOL, I did some calcs and last night was the last night a sat in geo will get totally eclipsed till next equinox. It lasted like 16 minutes.


I concur. You are totally correct.

For those of you having a hard time visualizing how the satellites are only eclipsed on days near the equinox, and then only for a few minutes per 24 hours: Simply look at the graphical representations of D10's orbits within this thread. Look at how small the diameter of the earth is compared to the diameter of the GEO satellite's orbit. Especially considering that the only time the sun is directly over the equator is during the equinox's, you can simply see visually from those graphics that there's not much time at all that the satellite is in eclipse.


----------



## LameLefty

ziltomil said:


> Actually, most of the year geosats aren't eclipsed by earth at all. Only around equinox are they eclipsed, and only for 60 minutes max at equinox.
> 
> LOL, I did some calcs and last night was the last night a sat in geo will get totally eclipsed till next equinox. It lasted like 16 minutes.


Yes, that's correct. I was thinking of imaging LEO sats from the ground.

On the other hand, in normal operations the PV arrays WILL be perpendicular to the sun and therefore at a VERY oblique angle for most observers (do the math on that one while you're at it  ). Reflectivity will be very low. dms's angular resolution calculations are still valid.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> On the other hand, in normal operations the PV arrays WILL be perpendicular to the sun and therefore at a VERY oblique angle for most observers (do the math on that one while you're at it  ).


Which is why I chose to ignore them in my calculation, though in hindsight I should have included more of an explanation behind my reasoning.


----------



## ziltomil

This is what it will look like from Directv-11 on April 16 if its parked by then










http://i27.tinypic.com/28tkigi.jpg


----------



## tuff bob

ziltomil said:


> This is what it will look like from Directv-11 on April 16 if its parked by then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i27.tinypic.com/28tkigi.jpg


that's awesome :lol:


----------



## MIAMI1683

Well i'm sure I should have stayed in school longer.

:lol: :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

ziltomil said:


> This is what it will look like from Directv-11 on April 16 if its parked by then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i27.tinypic.com/28tkigi.jpg


They should put an HD camera on these sats so they can beam back HD pictures of everything from their point of view!


----------



## ziltomil

Thats what I was thinking!!!! It wouldn't even use much bandwidth.


----------



## davemayo

ziltomil said:


> Thats what I was thinking!!!! It wouldn't even use much bandwidth.


Someone would still complain that it was "HD-Lite".


----------



## RAD

Isn't one of the upcoming E* sat's supposed to have a camera on it?


----------



## LameLefty

ziltomil said:


> Thats what I was thinking!!!! It wouldn't even use much bandwidth.


But it would use power and mass best allocated to the actual mission of the spacecraft.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> But it would use power and mass best allocated to the actual mission of the spacecraft.


You spoil sport.


----------



## grump

LameLefty said:


> But it would use power [...] allocated to the actual mission of the spacecraft.


That's what radioisotope thermoelectric generators are for.


----------



## bubbers44

A telescope photo would be best very late at night when the sun would be shining from behind the telescope giving an almost full antenna with maximum light return. Once in geostationary orbit you wouldn't even need a motorized tracker. Just point it at it's stationary position and do a time delay picture like the one above a few posts. I have the telescope and camera hookup but do not know how to aim it that precisely. I have seen quite a few comets not visible to the naked eye using stars for reference. The relative movement of the stars and satellite would make that method of finding a satellite very time critical.


----------



## bubbers44

Why is it that the 3,000+ megaposters here post info that is not true, then, when proven they are wrong, back pedal a bit and come back as experts again?


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> You spoil sport.


My first job out of college was manned spacecraft design engineer. It's hard to shake old habits.


----------



## Jeremy W

bubbers44 said:


> Why is it that the 3,000+ megaposters here post info that is not true, then, when proven they are wrong, back pedal a bit and come back as experts again?


Why is it that you can't just call out the people you're talking about directly, and maybe get some insight into why they posted what they did?


----------



## bubbers44

No offense. You were not the only one. You were wrong on the telescope not working and the other was the antenna not being faced at earth for a telescope to see the full array. Mega posters tend to take control of postings and over post their ideas without thinking them all the way through. We don't like it when megaposts mean more knowledge. It means more time to be on the computer.


----------



## syphix

I'm sure the mods would appreciate it if we kept on topic...

So, please:
:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

bubbers44 said:


> No offense. You were not the only one. You were wrong on the telescope not working and the other was the antenna not being faced at earth for a telescope to see the full array. Mega posters tend to take control of postings and over post their ideas without thinking them all the way through. We don't like it when megaposts mean more knowledge. It means more time to be on the computer.


:lol: You have no idea what you're talking about. No one has even been discussing the antenna at all.

And to reiterate the main point, whether in eclipse or not, the PV arrays will ideally be perpendicular to the sun. Given their relatively narrow width and the oblique angle as seen from 22,300 miles away, they will reflect very, very little light back under most conditions. In fact, they are designed to absorb as much light as possible, whereas the rest of the satellite body is typically encased on highly-reflective mylar-based MLI for thermal control.


----------



## donshan

generalpatton78 said:


> I know this is off topic but is it possible to spot D10 or later D11 with a telescope? I have a small ETX that has "go to" and many sat objects but the sats never seem to be passing over. I would think with D10 and soon D11 being at a single slot over NA I might be able to spot them around sundown or so. Does anybody here have experience with this?


Yes it is possible, but difficult. I have a Meade 10 inch LX 200 GPS telescope under computer GO TO control that I used to detect DirecTV 10 March 29 for practice using a very sensitive CCD camera. This was just a quick try to see if I could do it and to see what was there. My telescope control software "The Sky" can download any TLE set and compute the exact position to point to for that satellite at any moment in time.

Since I had the telescope clock drive tracking the stars at sidereal rate, the telescope was rotating the same speed as the earth. The result was the stars in my image were round circles as expected, but DirecTV 10 made a bright line across the image in the Right Ascension ( i.e. time) direction, since it is stationary with respect to earth, not the background stars the telescope was tracking. In order to get a photograph of JUST the satellite I will need to adjust the telescope to I can leave all the computer GO TO slew pointing functions running, but turn off the star tracking clock drive so the telescope stays pointed a fixed position relative to earth. Then the stars will form trailing lines in the CCD image and the satellite should form a shiny spot.

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13170&stc=1&d=1207708471

I noticed in the DirecTV picture more than one satellite formed trails , so I may have recorded Spaceway too and I am not positive which is which.

I plan to do some imaging more when D11 gets in place and will post a picture if I am successful. I don't expect to see any details of the satellites, only the sun reflection point of light of one or more satellites. My camera is sensitive enough to detect galaxies out to beyond 200 million light years and stars down to magnitude 20 so I expect to see something!

The excellent photo in the post just above shows how the stars will trail using a piggyback cameras, but I will see what the main LX 200 telescope and a sensitive CCD astro camera do after D11 is stationary. As magnification increases from camera lens focal length to telescope focal length it gets more difficult to center an object. Will take some luck too.

Edit : For those thinking of trying photos for D11, this photo was done using a SBIG ST-402 ME CCD camera, 13 seconds at a focal length of 915 mm, f 3.9. Once I get on target I can go up to as much as a telephoto of 4800 mm.


----------



## bubbers44

Originally Posted by ziltomil 
That's bad rationale to exclude the solar panels. 1) The only time a satellite can be visible is once it's night in your area of observation, thus a geosat will be reflecting light to earth 2)When determining a space object will be visble you use the biggest dimension. This is because we aren't going to resolve the actual satellite but the glare the satellite reflects, and 48 meters gives you a greater angular diameter to discern that glare. 


Your logic is faulty. A satellite in GSO will be eclipsed by the earth a good deal of the time. When it's not eclipsed (e.g., pre-dawn and post-sunset) the PV arrays will be perpendicular to the sun. There is going to be very little light scattered and reflected toward the surface of the Earth.
__________________
Originally Posted by ziltomil 
Actually, most of the year geosats aren't eclipsed by earth at all. Only around equinox are they eclipsed, and only for 60 minutes max at equinox.

LOL, I did some calcs and last night was the last night a sat in geo will get totally eclipsed till next equinox. It lasted like 16 minutes. 


Yes, that's correct. I was thinking of imaging LEO sats from the ground. 

On the other hand, in normal operations the PV arrays WILL be perpendicular to the sun and therefore at a VERY oblique angle for most observers (do the math on that one while you're at it ). Reflectivity will be very low. dms's angular resolution calculations are still valid.
__________________Remember?


----------



## davemayo

New TLE anyone???


----------



## Jeremy W

bubbers44 said:


> You were wrong on the telescope not working


I said:


Jeremy W said:


> I don't think it's possible.


I didn't say "Nope, not a chance, it'll never happen" and I didn't argue with anyone who corrected me. I fail to see how my post count means that I am not allowed to ever make a mistake, and I also fail to see how my handling of the situation was inappropriate.


----------



## bakers12

I think it's time I just watched http://space-track.org instead of this thread.


----------



## smiddy

bubbers44 said:


> Why is it that the 3,000+ megaposters here post info that is not true, then, when proven they are wrong, back pedal a bit and come back as experts again?


Hey, are you talking about me?


----------



## syphix

Guys, let's not get this thread locked, ok??

:backtotop


----------



## Sixto

TLE#30 ... same ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE30)
1 32729U 08013A   08100.52964480 -.00000316  00000-0  00000+0 0   308
2 32729 000.1689 271.6468 1387822 289.5681 115.9811 01.01576426   326

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-09-2008 12:42:41
Orbit # at Epoch	32
Inclination		0.169
RA of A. Node		271.647
Eccentricity		0.1387822
Argument of Perigee	289.568
Revs per day		1.01576426
Period			23h 37m 39s (1417.65 min)
Semi-major axis		41 803 km
Perigee x Apogee	29 623 x 41 226 km
Element number / age	30 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)
TLE#28 (04-07-2008 15:50:52) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+0.0 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+23.6 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#26 (04-06-2008 16:13:19) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+2.9 hours, at 17.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view


----------



## LameLefty

bubbers44 said:


> Originally Posted by ziltomil
> That's bad rationale to exclude the solar panels. 1) The only time a satellite can be visible is once it's night in your area of observation, thus a geosat will be reflecting light to earth 2)When determining a space object will be visble you use the biggest dimension. This is because we aren't going to resolve the actual satellite but the glare the satellite reflects, and 48 meters gives you a greater angular diameter to discern that glare.
> 
> Your logic is faulty. A satellite in GSO will be eclipsed by the earth a good deal of the time. When it's not eclipsed (e.g., pre-dawn and post-sunset) the PV arrays will be perpendicular to the sun. There is going to be very little light scattered and reflected toward the surface of the Earth.
> __________________
> Originally Posted by ziltomil
> Actually, most of the year geosats aren't eclipsed by earth at all. Only around equinox are they eclipsed, and only for 60 minutes max at equinox.
> 
> LOL, I did some calcs and last night was the last night a sat in geo will get totally eclipsed till next equinox. It lasted like 16 minutes.
> 
> Yes, that's correct. I was thinking of imaging LEO sats from the ground.
> 
> On the other hand, in normal operations the PV arrays WILL be perpendicular to the sun and therefore at a VERY oblique angle for most observers (do the math on that one while you're at it ). Reflectivity will be very low. dms's angular resolution calculations are still valid.
> __________________Remember?


I remember very well. Do you know what we're talking about here? The PV (photovoltaic arrays - "solar arrays" ) We're not talking about "antennas". And regarding the eclipse issue, I already indicated I was thinking about a different situation when I first replied, but at the same time, I'm still right because of the angle of incidence to the sun. It's YOU who don't seem to understand the issue.

And furthermore, if you don't like reading my posts, block them. I won't shed any tears. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Anything significant about the Orbital Inclination declining for the past 9 TLE's, or are these changes considered minimal?


Code:


000.1689 (TLE# 30)
000.1702 (TLE# 29)
000.1704 (TLE# 28)
000.1731 (TLE# 27)
000.1754 (TLE# 26)
000.1763 (TLE# 25)
000.1805 (TLE# 24)
000.1790 (TLE# 23)
000.1790 (TLE# 22)

With the sit at 29,623 x 41,226 km for the past 4.5 days, what event might they be waiting for?


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Anything significant about the Orbital Inclination declining for the past 9 TLE's, or are these changes considered minimal?
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 000.1689 (TLE# 30)
> 000.1702 (TLE# 29)
> 000.1704 (TLE# 28)
> 000.1731 (TLE# 27)
> 000.1754 (TLE# 26)
> 000.1763 (TLE# 25)
> 000.1805 (TLE# 24)
> 000.1790 (TLE# 23)
> 000.1790 (TLE# 22)
> 
> With the sit at 29,623 x 41,226 km for the past 4.5 days, what event might they be waiting for?


Inclination will probably drop even more (check the TLEs for operational sats) but it's not critical at this point in time.

As for what event, it's probably not any event per se. I think they're probably just waiting for the optimal phasing to make the next correction. At the current orbit, it takes a LONG time to reach apogee and/or perigee to make your corrections and you want to be able to make them as close to the right time as possible to optimize your burns. In this case, the have to make them when the final spot over the earth's surface coincides with the right point in the orbit - that's basically what phasing means. That way when they change it significantly again, it happens where they want it to.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> As for what event, it's probably not any event per se ...


Thanks Lefty.

Yep, was wondering about the specifics of what they're waiting for.

On the topic of "phasing", does the timing that they're waiting for occur daily? weekly? monthly? There's probably several variables, but curious if they might actually wait a significant amount of time if it might save a considerable amount of fuel.

Seems like there's balance between fuel and a deadline. With D11, they have the luxury of not needing to rush, but there's also the balance of conserving fuel while at the same time not taking forever to get to 99 degrees.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Seems like there's balance between fuel and a deadline. With D11, they have the luxury of not needing to rush, but there's also the balance of conserving fuel while at the same time not taking forever to get to 99 degrees.


Leftie, I am wondering, is the satellite effectively drifting east overall right now? seems like they might have to wait a long time for it to come "back around". or maybe the next burn raises the perigee high enough that it will make the satellite effetively drift west.


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> Leftie, I am wondering, is the satellite effectively drifting east overall right now? seems like they might have to wait a long time for it to come "back around". or maybe the next burn raises the perigee high enough that it will make the satellite effetively drift west.


Yes, it is drifting east because the average altitude is less than that for a GSO, so it is moving faster than the Earth is rotating. However, if the perigee was to be raised to GSO level then the average altitude would be higher than GSO and the satellite would drift west again.

Obviously the longer they leave it moving east the longer it will take to go back to the desired position. However, they don't need to wait for a complete eastwards orbit, since it will eventually move west again.


----------



## LameLefty

Yep, dms1 has explained it. I haven't been visualizing or modeling new TLEs as I used to do for D10, since the rest of this motley crew has since caught onto the basics  . Mostly now I just check the new TLE for orbital period and apogee/perigee to kind of get a ballpark estimate for "how close" since we know that once everything circularizes at GSO it'll be at or very near 99.225.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> With the sit at 29,623 x 41,226 km for the past 4.5 days, what event might they be waiting for?


They probably are waiting for it to drift east a bit since after the next burn it will start drifting west again, and at quite a faster rate than it is now drifting east. If they let it drift 60 degrees east of its target location before the next burn, and after the next burn it starts drifting west at 20 degrees per day, that gives them a few days to analyze the orbit after the next burn while the satellite backs up towards its target longitude, then another burn can put it very close to a geostationary orbit very near its target longitude.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> With the sit at 29,623 x 41,226 km for the past 4.5 days, what event might they be waiting for?


they're waiting for their password on space-track.org to be reset :lol:


----------



## ub1934

tuff bob said:


> they're waiting for their password on space-track.org to be reset :lol:


 They went past their 24 hrs , the sat will be deleted , :lol:


----------



## DIRECTV-12

D11 UPDATE!!!!


Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far. 

Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.

:computer:


----------



## RAD

Good news. Now the question, why is D* saying D11 won't go 'productional' until September???? That's a long time to be doing just testing.


----------



## SParker

WOOHOO good news!!!


----------



## Steve615

DIRECTV-12 said:


> D11 UPDATE!!!!
> 
> Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far.
> 
> Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.
> 
> :computer:


Fantastic news indeed!!Thanks for the update D12.


----------



## katzeye

DIRECTV-12 said:


> D11 UPDATE!!!!
> 
> Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far.
> 
> Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.
> 
> :computer:


Thanks D*12. Sounds exciting! I hope you don't get too lonely hanging out on the ground without your brothers.


----------



## katzeye

RAD said:


> Good news. Now the question, why is D* saying D11 won't go 'productional' until September???? That's a long time to be doing just testing.


It seems to be that the new question is that, if D*12 says it will be parked in 10 days (The 19th), why is the 30th a big deal?


----------



## DIRECTV-12

katzeye said:


> Thanks D*12. Sounds exciting! I hope you don't get too lonely hanging out on the ground without your brothers.


Lonely? I doubt it.

I have my feet kicked up and watching tons of HD from the HD leader - DIRECTV!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Malibu13

Thanks for the update DIRECTV-12.................. 

The natives are getting extremely restless. :lol:


----------



## Canis Lupus

Thanks D-12. Looking forward to it!


----------



## mhayes70

D-12 Thanks for the update. That is great news!!


----------



## Carl Spock

katzeye said:


> why is the 30th a big deal?


Because it's Willie Nelson's birthday?


----------



## Drew2k

Is everyone failing to note that April 30th is a Wednesday? What happens on Wednesday when there's bandwidth to spare????


----------



## reweiss

Drew2k said:


> Is everyone failing to note that April 30th is a Wednesday? What happens on Wednesday when there's bandwidth to spare????


Oooooo I know... We get new HD channels so half the people on the forum can complain that the new channels are of no use to them.

What do I win?


----------



## tuff bob

katzeye said:


> It seems to be that the new question is that, if D*12 says it will be parked in 10 days (The 19th), why is the 30th a big deal?


We get signal! Main screen turn on!
(extra credit if you get the reference) :lol:


----------



## Drew2k

reweiss said:


> What do I win?


Satisfaction? 

I'm really hoping that this is why D12 calls the 30th a "big day" ... we'll get lots of new HD channels ...


----------



## Steve615

Drew2k said:


> Is everyone failing to note that April 30th is a Wednesday? What happens on Wednesday when there's bandwidth to spare????


Festivus.


----------



## reweiss

tuff bob said:


> We get signal! Main screen turn on!
> (extra credit if you get the reference) :lol:


TRON?


----------



## davemayo

steve615 said:


> Festivus.


YEStivus!!


----------



## Drew2k

Zero Wing. (Google be Friend...)


----------



## Pinion413

Drew2k said:


> Satisfaction?
> 
> I'm really hoping that this is why D12 calls the 30th a "big day" ... we'll get lots of new HD channels ...


If the rumor(s) begin to persist, I'll be here just like the rest of us glued to this site to see if indeed anything is going to happen. :new_popco


----------



## inkahauts

Drew2k said:


> Satisfaction?
> 
> I'm really hoping that this is why D12 calls the 30th a "big day" ... we'll get lots of new HD channels ...


"Lots"


----------



## houskamp

one server crash comming up on the 30th


----------



## Pinion413

houskamp said:


> one server crash comming up on the 30th


:lol:


----------



## reweiss

Drew2k said:


> Satisfaction?
> 
> I'm really hoping that this is why D12 calls the 30th a "big day" ... we'll get lots of new HD channels ...


If D11 is parked on the 19th, would D** really start giving us new channels that quickly?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Drew2k said:


> Is everyone failing to note that April 30th is a Wednesday? What happens on Wednesday when there's bandwidth to spare????


More HD, but what channels are left?


----------



## Drew2k

inkahauts said:


> "Lots"


PBS, Travel, ABC Family ... I'm sure there are others - I'm _*hoping*_ there are others ...

For sure there are a lot of LIL-HD for markets still waiting ...


----------



## Drew2k

reweiss said:


> If D11 is parked on the 19th, would D** really start giving us new channels that quickly?


I don't know, but why else would D12 say the 30th is a big day? It could be something as anticlimactic as that's when we'll see the first new transponder light up ..... so maybe we shouldn't set expectations too high.


----------



## PoitNarf

tuff bob said:


> We get signal! Main screen turn on!
> (extra credit if you get the reference) :lol:


All your base are belong to us.


----------



## Steve615

Perhaps some "test" channels may pop up,like they did with D10.


----------



## PoitNarf

steve615 said:


> Perhaps some "test" channels may pop up,like they did with D10.


Ah yes, that was an interesting time


----------



## tuff bob

theratpatrol said:


> More HD, but what channels are left?


NY DNS
ESPN / ESPN2 / ESPN-U in MPEG4 HD

actually ... not too many. I hope DirecTV-11 doesn't get bored


----------



## PoitNarf

reweiss said:


> If D11 is parked on the 19th, would D** really start giving us new channels that quickly?


Keep in mind that they'll probably be quicker with the process now after having the experience of getting everything with D10 operational. I'd imagine they would have been able to test a lot of the encoders and other equipment for use on D11 by piping test channels through D10 with that same equipment. It would have been calibrated and such already, just gotta pipe those signals to D11 instead.


----------



## reweiss

PoitNarf said:


> Keep in mind that they'll probably be quicker with the process now after having the experience of getting everything with D10 operational. I'd imagine they would have been able to test a lot of the encoders and other equipment for use on D11 by piping test channels through D10 with that same equipment. It would have been calibrated and such already, just gotta pipe those signals to D11 instead.


I hope you're right, but I don't want to get my hopes up.


----------



## Canis Lupus

Exactly - plus the fact that 103 was a "new spot" in the sky, which befell a lot of users with problems because of dish tweaks. 99c could light up much faster for most users.



PoitNarf said:


> Keep in mind that they'll probably be quicker with the process now after having the experience of getting everything with D10 operational. I'd imagine they would have been able to test a lot of the encoders and other equipment for use on D11 by piping test channels through D10 with that same equipment. It would have been calibrated and such already, just gotta pipe those signals to D11 instead.


----------



## katzeye

PoitNarf said:


> Keep in mind that they'll probably be quicker with the process now after having the experience of getting everything with D10 operational. I'd imagine they would have been able to test a lot of the encoders and other equipment for use on D11 by piping test channels through D10 with that same equipment. It would have been calibrated and such already, just gotta pipe those signals to D11 instead.


D12 did say that they were already testing D11. Are they able to test effectively even though it is not in perfect orbit? Maybe once it is parked, it will just take a couple of days of tweaks, and then it will be ready to go. Of course that is all still dependent on the lack of new channels to add (minus the few that we know are down the line eventually). Also the fact that D* was very clear that September was the time for the launch of programming on D11, but I am aware that no one really believes that.


----------



## tuff bob

I think any space to earth transponder testing would require a FCC STA?


----------



## PoitNarf

katzeye said:


> D12 did say that they were already testing D11. Are they able to test effectively even though it is not in perfect orbit?


They're most likely not doing signal tests, but checks of the electronics, solar panels, batteries, mechanical parts and all sorts of other diagnostics so that they know that the satellite survived it's trip up to orbit with no damage.


----------



## katzeye

PoitNarf said:


> They're most likely not doing signal tests, but checks of the electronics, solar panels, batteries, mechanical parts and all sorts of other diagnostics so that they know that the satellite survived it's trip up to orbit with no damage.


Ah, that makes much more sense.


----------



## tuff bob

Somehow I don't think D11 will have the moment that D10 had --- I remember the first festivus, getting up early and waiting for 6am ET, and then all of a sudden HD channels were appearing faster than I could flip to them..... that was great :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Carl Spock said:


> Because it's Willie Nelson's birthday?


Toby Keith says "I'll never smoke weed with Willie again!" :lol:


----------



## smiddy

HD Me DirecTV! DirecTV 11 that is, with a ton of Local markets and a few more national channels...

ABC Family HD (Me DirecTV)
Travel Channel HD (Me DirecTV)
E! HD (Me DirecTV)
History Channel International HD (ME DirecTV)
DIY HD (Me DirecTV)
FLN HD (Me DirecTV)
Comedy Central HD (Me DirecTV)
Real TV HD (Me DirecTV)
Fit TV HD (Me DirecTV)
BBC America HD (Me DirecTV)
NASA HD (Me DirecTV)
Discovery Home HD (Me DirecTV)
Military Channel HD (Me DirecTV)
Disney Channel 2 HD (Me DirecTV)
Noggin HD (Me DirecTV)
WGN HD (Me DirecTV)
Fuse HD (Me DirecTV)
G4 HD (Me DirecTV)
currrent_ HD (Me DirecTV)

That's all I can come up with...


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> I think any space to earth transponder testing would require a FCC STA?


It would, but they can't test the transponders until it's parked.


----------



## Ed Campbell

theratpatrol said:


> More HD, but what channels are left?


BBCAmerica could re-premiere "Wire in the Blood".

Even though I watched the first in the new series, Sunday - I'd be willing to start all over again.

And Doctor Who.


----------



## Ed Campbell

smiddy said:


> HD Me DirecTV! DirecTV 11 that is, with a ton of Local markets and a few more national channels...
> 
> That's all I can come up with...


Soccer fans [proper football fans] would add Fox Soccer Channel and Setanta Sports in HD. Count in Rugby Fans, Aussie Football, Gaelic Football and Shinty, as well.

Cripes, Setanta has the UK contract for the new Indian Premier League of Cricket. I know folks who would sell their younger brothers for that.


----------



## smiddy

I need some good spirits to watch a cricket match...:lol:

Gaelic Football, now there's a new one on me...I better research this one. I agree though, all in HD (Me DirecTV) would be spectacular!


----------



## cartrivision

reweiss said:


> If D11 is parked on the 19th, would D** really start giving us new channels that quickly?


I doubt it.


----------



## cartrivision

PoitNarf said:


> All your base are belong to us


All your HD are belong to DirecTV subscribers.


----------



## viperlmw

MSNBC HD


----------



## Neural762

smiddy said:


> That's all I can come up with...


OLN HD


----------



## syphix

I really hope that no one takes "DIRECTV-12's" comments as gospel....

I have no insight or contacts within DirecTV, and by no means want to discredit "DIRECTV-12", but I've learned to believe it when I see it. And have given up waking up to see what's turned on at 5 am.

Do what I do: learn to anticipate/expect _little_, and be surprised/excited _more_ when they arrive.


----------



## Indiana627

How about Fox News HD?


----------



## RAD

While it looks like maybe this month D11 would be operational I wonder if D*'s saying September due to some issue with their uplink facilities, maybe some more work needs to be done for that?


----------



## mirwin101

smiddy said:


> HD Me DirecTV! DirecTV 11 that is, with a ton of Local markets and a few more national channels...
> 
> ...
> 
> That's all I can come up with...


How about more CW affiliates? I'm still watching Smallville in standard definition It ain't right! :lol:


----------



## ctaranto

Carl Spock said:


> Because it's Willie Nelson's birthday?


Ugh. I have the same birthday as Willie Nelson?

-Craig


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> While it looks like maybe this month D11 would be operational I wonder if D*'s saying September due to some issue with their uplink facilities, maybe some more work needs to be done for that?


I still think "September" is just a code-word to content providers that they need to step up to the plate and get those channels ready as promised (ESPN-U for instance, for college football season), and the rest of the MPEG4 HD HBO feeds . . . It's also quite probable that the next big phase of HD LIL expansion requires updates to Directv's infrastructure which will be going on this summer, hence a September operational date. I don't doubt for a second that we'll get a few new national HD feeds and a couple of the bigger but not yet served HD LIL markets by May, but rollout of HD to all of the smaller markets probably will take a while.


----------



## harsh

Neural762 said:


> OLN HD


Already available from most distributors! It is now called Versus HD.

I suspect you were thinking of Outdoor Channel HD; another one of those HD channels that doesn't exist that many are clamoring for.


----------



## BWELL316

Ed Campbell said:


> BBCAmerica could re-premiere "Wire in the Blood".
> 
> Even though I watched the first in the new series, Sunday - I'd be willing to start all over again.
> 
> And Doctor Who.


Doctor Who is not filmed in HD, although even the upconversion that was on Sci-Fi HD looks sharp. Torchwood is in HD though.


----------



## ctaranto

mirwin101 said:


> How about more CW affiliates? I'm still watching Smallville in standard definition It ain't right! :lol:


+1

Coming from Comcast HD, that's the only HD channel that I lost by moving to D*.
(but I also gained about 30 others)

-Craig


----------



## TheRatPatrol

smiddy said:


> HD Me DirecTV! DirecTV 11 that is, with a ton of Local markets and a few more national channels...
> 
> ABC Family HD (Me DirecTV)
> Travel Channel HD (Me DirecTV)
> E! HD (Me DirecTV)
> History Channel International HD (ME DirecTV)
> DIY HD (Me DirecTV)
> FLN HD (Me DirecTV)
> Comedy Central HD (Me DirecTV)
> Real TV HD (Me DirecTV)
> Fit TV HD (Me DirecTV)
> BBC America HD (Me DirecTV)
> NASA HD (Me DirecTV)
> Discovery Home HD (Me DirecTV)
> Military Channel HD (Me DirecTV)
> Disney Channel 2 HD (Me DirecTV)
> Noggin HD (Me DirecTV)
> WGN HD (Me DirecTV)
> Fuse HD (Me DirecTV)
> G4 HD (Me DirecTV)
> currrent_ HD (Me DirecTV)
> 
> That's all I can come up with...


But do all of those channels have HD feeds?


----------



## bkozlowski

1. ABC Family (carried by Comcast)
2. AMC HD (carried by Cablevision & Comcast)
3. Fuse HD (carried by Cablevision)
4. Hallmark Movie HD
5. HBO2 HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
6. HBO Comedy HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
7. HBO Famly HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
8. IFC HD (carried by Cablevision)
9. Lifetime Movies HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
10. Mojo HD
11. Outdoor Channel2 HD
12. RFD HD
13. Travel Channel HD
14. WE HD (carried by Cablevision)
15. Wealth HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
16. WGN Superstation HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
17-31. Voom Suite HD

Not sure if the other HBO/Cinemax channels are broadcasting yet but these are the ones available on U-Verse.

-b


----------



## Drew2k

I wonder if "D11 - What's April 30th and what will b in HD" discussion should be moved into a separate thread ...


----------



## Sixto

TLE #31 ... slight change ... TLE is only +2.4 hours later from #30 ... maybe in midst of move when taken ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE31)
1 32729U 08013A   08100.62918107 -.00000322  00000-0  00000+0 0   312
2 32729 000.1673 272.2499 1372686 288.9546 152.4137 01.01424340   330

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-09-2008 15:06:01[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	33
Inclination		0.167
RA of A. Node		272.250
Eccentricity		0.1372686
Argument of Perigee	288.955
Revs per day		1.01424340
Period			23h 39m 46s (1419.77 min)
Semi-major axis		41 845 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]29 723 x 41 211 km[/B]
Element number / age	31 / 1 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) [B]29,723 x 41,211 km[/B] (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)
TLE#28 (04-07-2008 15:50:52) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+0.0 hours, at 18.9 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+23.6 hours, at 18.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view


----------



## steveken

hmm, wonder why the ever so slight changes? just tiny burns here and there instead of big burns?


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> hmm, wonder why the ever so slight changes? just tiny burns here and there instead of big burns?


yep, and TLE#31 (latest) is still from yesterday ... just 2.4 hours later from previous ...


----------



## bruinfever

bkozlowski said:


> 1. ABC Family (carried by Comcast)
> 2. AMC HD (carried by Cablevision & Comcast)
> 3. Fuse HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 4. Hallmark Movie HD
> 5. HBO2 HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 6. HBO Comedy HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 7. HBO Famly HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 8. IFC HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 9. Lifetime Movies HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 10. Mojo HD
> 11. Outdoor Channel2 HD
> 12. RFD HD
> 13. Travel Channel HD
> 14. WE HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 15. Wealth HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 16. WGN Superstation HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 17-31. Voom Suite HD
> 
> Not sure if the other HBO/Cinemax channels are broadcasting yet but these are the ones available on U-Verse.
> 
> -b


Call me simple but I would rather have actual HD content on the current lineup than more channels with stretch-o-vision and an HD logo on the bottom right of the screen.


----------



## Indiana627

bruinfever said:


> Call me simple but I would rather have actual HD content on the current lineup than more channels with stretch-o-vision and an HD logo on the bottom right of the screen.


Nothing D* can do about that. Complain to the actual channels. D* just broadcasts what they send.


----------



## JeffBowser

On the contrary, I would rather have the channels in place so that true HD content, when available, can be immediately broadcast because the channel is already in place. Think ahead.



bruinfever said:


> Call me simple but I would rather have actual HD content on the current lineup than more channels with stretch-o-vision and an HD logo on the bottom right of the screen.


----------



## JLucPicard

I know, off topic, but weren't we supposed to be getting Chiller in HD?


----------



## Cozmo85

bruinfever said:


> Call me simple but I would rather have actual HD content on the current lineup than more channels with stretch-o-vision and an HD logo on the bottom right of the screen.


Id rather have channels i want to watch ready for HD programming then 12 channels of nature programming thats all the same.


----------



## RAD

JLucPicard said:


> I know, off topic, but weren't we supposed to be getting Chiller in HD?


AFAIK it's not even launched yet.


----------



## P Smith

JLucPicard said:


> I know, off topic, but weren't we supposed to be getting Chiller in HD?


It will happen on Dish next week.


----------



## bruinfever

JeffBowser said:


> On the contrary, I would rather have the channels in place so that true HD content, when available, can be immediately broadcast because the channel is already in place. Think ahead.


You're right...As a matter of fact I'll take SD content not stretched on an HD channel anyday over the SD channel..


----------



## syphix

P Smith said:


> It will happen on Dish next week.


Chiller SD may be launching on Dish Network next week, but I believe I've read elsewhere on this forum that Chiller _HD_ has been delayed for launch (it's not even created yet) by NBC Universal until after the Olympics.


----------



## azarby

:backtotop


----------



## cwdonahue

bkozlowski said:


> 1. ABC Family (carried by Comcast)
> 2. AMC HD (carried by Cablevision & Comcast)
> 3. Fuse HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 4. Hallmark Movie HD
> 5. HBO2 HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 6. HBO Comedy HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 7. HBO Famly HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 8. IFC HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 9. Lifetime Movies HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 10. Mojo HD
> 11. Outdoor Channel2 HD
> 12. RFD HD
> 13. Travel Channel HD
> 14. WE HD (carried by Cablevision)
> 15. Wealth HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 16. WGN Superstation HD (carried by AT&T U-Verse)
> 17-31. Voom Suite HD
> 
> Not sure if the other HBO/Cinemax channels are broadcasting yet but these are the ones available on U-Verse.
> 
> -b


Don't forget PBS locals in HD. Remember, D* signed a deal with PBS to carry PBS locals in HD. I can't wait, because the SD feed for WTTW Ch. 11 in Chicago is horrible. They must be using a rooftop antenna to pull that channel in!


----------



## Jeremy W

cwdonahue said:


> They must be using a rooftop antenna to pull that channel in!


Actually, they probably are...


----------



## inkahauts

I don't expect us to see any LIL channels from D11 when it gets fired up. I wouldn't be surprised if we see MPEG-4 mirrors of the few channels that are left in MPEG-2 (HD) . I also wouldn't be surprised if we see all the HBO channels and some of the others I've seen mentioned here. But PBS will probably be a bit longer... I also wouldn't be surprised if we see a little bit of load balancing. I think one of the transponders on D10 will be turned off, (they are using one of their spares there for the moment) and for that to free up bandwidth for more LIL broadcasts from D10. Now for all of that happening on day 1... I would expect to see just some new channels at first, maybe 10, and then in a week or 2, load balanacing, and then a few weeks after that we will probably see some LIL channels getting fired up... You know, sometimes its fun to talk out of my *(*%^&%*&% !!!! How really knows. I'll be thrilled if they just fire up one channel, just so we know she works and is ready as more channels come online.

And Wouldn't you say September after what happened last September. Everyone was going nuts saying that something was major wrong with D10 when it didn't light up the day that everyone expected, even though it was never announced as being the day it was going to light up. This way, they'll be able to light up, and then promote that they are not just running, but running early!!!!!


----------



## inkahauts

Drew2k said:


> I wonder if "D11 - What's April 30th and what will b in HD" discussion should be moved into a separate thread ...





DIRECTV-12 said:


> D11 UPDATE!!!!
> 
> Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far.
> 
> Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.
> 
> :computer:





azarby said:


> :backtotop


Maybe we need to start the thread for the day that D11 lights up now, so that we can put channel anticipation there. The reality is though, after D12's post, there is little for us to talk about in this thread, other than watch D11 slowly do what D12 has already said it will do. Its like watching a game on ESPN Classic, and who doesn't like to speculate about what ifs when they are watching a game on ESPN Classic?


----------



## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> Its like watching a game on ESPN Classic, and who doesn't like to speculate about what ifs when they are watching a game on ESPN Classic?


One of these times, there will be a different outcome. Just wait...


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 32 ... slightly higher ... +124km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE32)
1 32729U 08013A   08101.61525770 -.00000336  00000-0  00000+0 0   328
2 32729 000.1751 269.6021 1352285 291.5828 152.5164 01.01190771   344

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-10-2008 14:45:58[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	34
Inclination		0.175
RA of A. Node		269.602
Eccentricity		0.1352285
Argument of Perigee	291.583
Revs per day		1.01190771
Period			23h 43m 03s (1423.5 min)
Semi-major axis		41 909 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]29 864 x 41 198 km[/B]
Element number / age	32 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) [B]29,864 x 41,198 km[/B] (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)
TLE#28 (04-07-2008 15:50:52) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+0.0 hours, at 18.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## Tom_S

I say, crash it into the moon. Maye then they could get some scientific value form watching the collision.


----------



## Fish Man

Arrgh!

:backtotop 

Please!


----------



## mbuser

I just tested signal strength for the transponder survey, and had 99s and 103s listed, with zero signal strength across the board. Is that D11 by any chance? If not, what are they?


----------



## Sixto

TLE#33 ... similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE33)
1 32729U 08013A   08102.60368210 -.00000341  00000-0  00000+0 0   339
2 32729 000.1677 270.5144 1352339 290.7603 152.5348 01.01201037   353

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-11-2008 14:29:18[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	35
Inclination		0.168
RA of A. Node		270.514
Eccentricity		0.1352339
Argument of Perigee	290.760
Revs per day		1.01201037
Period			23h 42m 54s (1422.90 min)
Semi-major axis		41 906 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]29 861 x 41 195 km[/B]
Element number / age	33 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) [B]29,861 x 41,195 km[/B] (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.0 hours, at 19.7 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## Indiana627

mbuser said:


> I just tested signal strength for the transponder survey, and had 99s and 103s listed, with zero signal strength across the board. Is that D11 by any chance? If not, what are they?


No, 99s and 103s are the Spaceway 1 and 2 satellites. D11 will be 99c. D10 is 103c.

The s stands for spot beam and c stands for CONUS (national).


----------



## Dave

Has anyone heard whether or not DirectV has applied for a permit to do testing at a fixed location yet? I would think that since they are within 7 to 10 days at most to parking D11 they would have a application on file with someone to start there testing for operations. Or if they are going to test at a temporary location? They don't seem to be letting the information out to the public yet.


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> Has anyone heard whether or not DirectV has applied for a permit to do testing at a fixed location yet? I would think that since they are within 7 to 10 days at most to parking D11 they would have a application on file with someone to start there testing for operations. Or if they are going to test at a temporary location? They don't seem to be letting the information out to the public yet.


Nothing new.

FCC SAT documents are published every Friday. Through today, nothing. Through SAT-00514 released today.

Only info has been 99.225.


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> No, 99s and 103s are the Spaceway 1 and 2 satellites. D11 will be 99c. D10 is 103c.
> 
> The s stands for spot beam and c stands for CONUS (national).


For clarity ... D11 will have 99(c) and 99(s) but not yet. D11 can do both.

Same with D10 which has 103(c) and 103(s).


----------



## Indiana627

Sixto said:


> For clarity ... D11 will have 99(c) and 99(s) but not yet. D11 can do both.
> 
> Same with D10 which has 103(c) and 103(s).


True, but won't the first sign of life from D11 be on 99c - or at least the existence of 99c in our signal strength menu?


----------



## Sixto

Indiana627 said:


> True, but won't the first sign of life from D11 be on 99c - or at least the existence of 99c in our signal strength menu?


Yep, probably see 99(c) before any new transponders on 99(s).

Gotta get to 35,786 x 35,786 km, 99.225° first!


----------



## Jeremy W

Indiana627 said:



> True, but won't the first sign of life from D11 be on 99c - or at least the existence of 99c in our signal strength menu?


99c will probably exist in the menu before D11 is actually broadcasting. But it will mean that D11 is almost ready to go.


----------



## tuff bob

Indiana627 said:


> True, but won't the first sign of life from D11 be on 99c - or at least the existence of 99c in our signal strength menu?


Probably not. DirecTV will probably "hide" 99c until such time that they are ready to make it visible.


----------



## betterdan

Ok this thread is really long so I haven't read it all and it may have been answered already but, when the new sat goes live are we gonna have to have the dish realigned again or should it come in just fine if the other sats including 103 are tweaked and coming in strong?

*takes a breath*


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

betterdan said:


> Ok this thread is really long so I haven't read it all and it may have been answered already but, when the new sat goes live are we gonna have to have the dish realigned again or should it come in just fine if the other sats including 103 are tweaked and coming in strong?
> 
> *takes a breath*


As long as your dish is aligned correct now and you are getting strong signals you will be good to go.


----------



## betterdan

BMoreRavens said:


> As long as your dish is aligned correct now and you are getting strong signals you will be good to go.


Thanks!


----------



## inkahauts

BMoreRavens said:


> As long as your dish is aligned correct now and you are getting strong signals you will be good to go.


True, although has anyone else noticed that a LOT of people taking the transponder strength survey have had good signals on all but the 103c sat, and that many are reporting signals 20 + points less than the other sats... After D11 is up and running, I know I will be rechecking my strengths just to make sure, and I recommend everyone else do so as well... just to be sure...


----------



## Interceptor

TLE #34 Still not much change.



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08103.59164445 -.00000354  00000-0  00000+0 0   347
2 32729 000.1559 265.5741 1330343 295.6422 151.7454 01.00975749   360




Code:


Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-12 14:11:58
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination	0.156
RA of A. Node	265.574
Eccentricity	0.1330343
Argument of Perigee	295.642
Revs per day	1.00975749
Period	23h 46m 05s (1426.8 min)
Semi-major axis	41 969 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 007 x 41 174 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	151.745
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	34 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Tiger62

Not MUCH change, but, due to it's higher orbit, the eastward "drift" is down from 5.66 deg/day to 3.51 deg/day. Will they continue to circularize the orbit at increasing altitudes, so that it eventually "backs up" (westerly) into it's 99.2W position, then adjust the orbit altitude down? Sounds logical, but I've been out of the "rocket science" business for a few years.


----------



## tuff bob

the perigee is above 30k km now


----------



## bubbers44

Does anyone know why all of the short burns are being done instead of one long one? They will need to go higher than final geostationary orbit altitude to back it up to 99.2. It seems there would be plenty of time to tweak the orbit then as it is moving back west. Is it because they can't get within a certain distance of other satellites in geostationary orbit when D11 goes through that altitude on it's eliptical orbit?


----------



## inkahauts

bubbers44 said:


> Does anyone know why all of the short burns are being done instead of one long one? They will need to go higher than final geostationary orbit altitude to back it up to 99.2. It seems there would be plenty of time to tweak the orbit then as it is moving back west. Is it because they can't get within a certain distance of other satellites in geostationary orbit when D11 goes through that altitude on it's eliptical orbit?


They have the time available to use earths gravity, so why not? from earlier posts, they are already doing many checks of systems, and it almost sounds like by the time its parked the only thing left will be to test its transponders signal strengths....


----------



## Sixto

Interceptor said:


> TLE #34 ...





Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30 007 x 41 174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## bubbers44

inkahauts said:


> They have the time available to use earths gravity, so why not? from earlier posts, they are already doing many checks of systems, and it almost sounds like by the time its parked the only thing left will be to test its transponders signal strengths....


Either way they will have to go high to back up and that will be a free ride, once there, just as the present one. Seems like now drifting east at about 250 miles a day it just requires more time every day they wait to back it into it's parking spot at 99.2 W Longitude. To save fuel it seems they would just increase the altitude enough to get back to 99.2 in a reasonable time. Not go higher and waste fuel getting back faster.


----------



## GLJones

It will arrive at 99.2 in September at this rate. ;-)

Jerry


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30 007 x 41 174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
> TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
> TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
> TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
> TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


Looks like the thing farts about every 12 hours. !pusht!


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> Either way they will have to go high to back up and that will be a free ride, once there, just as the present one. Seems like now drifting east at about 250 miles a day it just requires more time every day they wait to back it into it's parking spot at 99.2 W Longitude. To save fuel it seems they would just increase the altitude enough to get back to 99.2 in a reasonable time. Not go higher and waste fuel getting back faster.


The apogee is already above the GSO level. Therefore, as soon as the perigee is raised the satellite will drift west anyway. They can then park it by lowering the apogee. Nothing is going to need to be raised more than it otherwise would.


----------



## bubbers44

Raising the perigee will automatically reduce the apogee. Once the time above GSO level exceeds the time below GSO it will start to move west. The small burns in the post above show that. Obviously going a lot higher to expedite the west drift followed by another burn to park it will take more fuel than going just high enough to slowly park it.


----------



## crashHD

I know that the 95% of rocket science questions can be covered with the answers "boom" or "minimal fuel consumption", but I'll ask anyway...

Why do they launch these things into such highly elliptic orbits, and then flatten them out, instead of launching directly into a circular orbit?


----------



## lwilli201

crashHD said:


> I know that the 95% of rocket science questions can be covered with the answers "boom" or "minimal fuel consumption", but I'll ask anyway...
> 
> Why do they launch these things into such highly elliptic orbits, and then flatten them out, instead of launching directly into a circular orbit?


I am going to take a wild guess at this one. The launch vehicles are not capable of lifting the payload all the way up to 35000 km. The payload separates at the initial perigee but at an angle that the payload continues to rise until it reaches its apogee where gravity takes over. The on board engines are fired at appropriate times to circularize the orbit.

How far am I off. :grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

crashHD said:


> I know that the 95% of rocket science questions can be covered with the answers "boom" or "minimal fuel consumption", but I'll ask anyway...
> 
> Why do they launch these things into such highly elliptic orbits, and then flatten them out, instead of launching directly into a circular orbit?


All about fuel. How expensive it is and how vital it is for station-keeping and that final safety de-orbit.

So they use a "transfer orbit", very long, elliptical orbit to get from low to high. Then they circularize it.

My guess, pure and simple is that Boeing and DIRECTV are testing many, many things even while in this slow progress to home. These small burns at this stage might also be station-keeping test burns, thus serving two purposes: 1) bring the baby home and 2) testing station-keeping functions at the same time.

(more guess) Had Boeing or DIRECTV wanted, D11 could have been in its home 3 or 4 days after launch. And that the fuel differential would have been acceptable. But--it would still need 3 or more weeks of testing anyway. So they burn less fuel, get the thing tested, and ready at about the same time they would have anyway.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> I am going to take a wild guess at this one. The launch vehicles are not capable of lifting the payload all the way up to 35000 km. The payload separates at the initial perigee but at an angle that the payload continues to rise until it reaches its apogee where gravity takes over. The on board engines are fired at appropriate times to circularize the orbit.
> 
> How far am I off. :grin:


Not far, I'd guess. The final stage of the launching vehicles is designed to put heavy lift satellites (these big honkin' bad boys) into a transfer orbit to let gravity do the work. After that, they tend to be more in the way and too powerful to transition the orbit, I guess.

On a highway, to do a 3 lane change (right to left for example), you don't just pop into the lane (orbit) you want. 
Step 1) Steer left out of your lane 
Step 2) After getting the angle you want, steer straight (a slight right turn since you still were turning left...)
Step 3) As you reach the lane, steer right
Step 4) Once you get solid in the lane, steer straight (a slight left turn to negate the right turn.)

(Warning, some states don't allow multiple lane crossings without establishing position in each lane. So don't try this at home without checking first.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## crashHD

lwilli201 said:


> I am going to take a wild guess at this one. The launch vehicles are not capable of lifting the payload all the way up to 35000 km. The payload separates at the initial perigee but at an angle that the payload continues to rise until it reaches its apogee where gravity takes over. The on board engines are fired at appropriate times to circularize the orbit.
> How far am I off. :grin:


I think I get it. For the launch vehicle to put it in a circular orbit, the vehicle would have to ride all the way up, which would be impractical. So the launch vehicle carries the sat until it has given the sat enough kinetic energy to reach GSO and (excuse the crude terminology) throws it the rest of the way?


----------



## Tom Robertson

crashHD said:


> I think I get it. For the launch vehicle to put it in a circular orbit, the vehicle would have to ride all the way up, which would be impractical. So the launch vehicle carries the sat until it has given the sat enough kinetic energy to reach GSO and (excuse the crude terminology) throws it the rest of the way?


Excellent grasp. I'd probably reverse the wording: the launch vehicle throws the satellite the rest of the way by giving it enough kinetic energy. Either way, I love the simplicity of the statement.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## lwilli201

Tom Robertson said:


> Not far, I'd guess. The final stage of the launching vehicles is designed to put heavy lift satellites (these big honkin' bad boys) into a transfer orbit to let gravity do the work. After that, they tend to be more in the way and too powerful to transition the orbit, I guess.
> 
> On a highway, to do a 3 lane change (right to left for example), you don't just pop into the lane (orbit) you want.
> Step 1) Steer left out of your lane
> Step 2) After getting the angle you want, steer straight (a slight right turn since you still were turning left...)
> Step 3) As you reach the lane, steer right
> Step 4) Once you get solid in the lane, steer straight (a slight left turn to negate the right turn.)
> 
> (Warning, some states don't allow multiple lane crossings without establishing position in each lane. So don't try this at home without checking first.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


According to the launch profile the two big stages only lift the sat to about 180 KM. That is not very high, but I think that is above the atmosphere, then the Block DM accelerates the sat so that it can get to a high apogee. The speed in getting the sat into position has nothing to do with the initial lift stages. It has all to do with how fast they want to get it done and how much fuel they are willing to use.

http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/current_launch.htm


----------



## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> According to the launch profile the two big stages only lift the sat to about 180 KM. That is not very high, but I think that is above the atmosphere, then the Block DM accelerates the sat so that it can get to a high apogee. The speed in getting the sat into position has nothing to do with the initial lift stages. It has all to do with how fast they want to get it done and how much fuel they are willing to use.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/special/sea-launch/current_launch.htm


The Block DM is the final stage for GSO launches.


----------



## lwilli201

Tom Robertson said:


> The Block DM is the final stage for GSO launches.


Yes, it is, and I believe it is still up there, at least it was being tracked. Another thing to consider, is that if stages went much higher they would end up in orbit instead of dropping back to earth. That would be some big space garbage.

To answer CrashHD's question, it would take a much larger lift vehicle to insert the sat directly into GSO and there would be some serious space junk left up there.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Raising the perigee will automatically reduce the apogee. Once the time above GSO level exceeds the time below GSO it will start to move west. The small burns in the post above show that. Obviously going a lot higher to expedite the west drift followed by another burn to park it will take more fuel than going just high enough to slowly park it.


Actually, the apogee is usually unchanged when the perigee is raised. They usually do a perigee raising burn at apogee (because it's most efficient to do it there), which raises the perigee without significantly raising or lowering the apogee.


----------



## cartrivision

lwilli201 said:


> Yes, it is, and I believe it is still up there, at least it was being tracked. Another thing to consider, is that if stages went much higher they would end up in orbit instead of dropping back to earth. That would be some big space garbage.
> 
> To answer CrashHD's question, it would take a much larger lift vehicle to insert the sat directly into GSO and there would be some serious space junk left up there.


Does anyone know how long it takes the Block DM orbit (which I assume was left in a very similar orbit to the satellite's GTO orbit) to decay and for it to fall back into the atmosphere to burn up?


----------



## LameLefty

> Does anyone know how long it takes the Block DM orbit (which I assume was left in a very similar orbit to the satellite's GTO orbit) to decay and for it to fall back into the atmosphere to burn up?


Not off-hand, but you can check Space-Track.org for their "decay lists" and historical information on prior launches to figure it out.


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom Robertson said:


> crashHD said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I get it. For the launch vehicle to put it in a circular orbit, the vehicle would have to ride all the way up, which would be impractical. So the launch vehicle carries the sat until it has given the sat enough kinetic energy to reach GSO and (excuse the crude terminology) throws it the rest of the way?
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent grasp. I'd probably reverse the wording: the launch vehicle throws the satellite the rest of the way by giving it enough kinetic energy. Either way, I love the simplicity of the statement.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
Click to expand...

You two guys are brilliant.

OK, I have another question. How much of the circularizing the orbit is done by gravity and how much is done by the rocket burns? If I roll a marble around the inside of a big bowl, starting it in a elliptical orbit, that ellipsoid motion doesn't increase but decreases, slowly circularizing the marble's rolling around the bowl. Similarly, I must think the Earth's gravity is doing a lot of the work making the elliptical transfer orbit circular. Is this the case?


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Excellent grasp. I'd probably reverse the wording: the launch vehicle throws the satellite the rest of the way by giving it enough kinetic energy.


I'd guess that once that the satellite reaches GTO, pretty much every move is initiated by the satellite itself and controlled carefully.

Once the satellite nears GSO, traffic becomes an issue as it can't just sweep through the Clarke belt willy-nilly.


----------



## harsh

Carl Spock said:


> Similarly, I must think the Earth's gravity is doing a lot of the work making the elliptical transfer orbit circular. Is this the case?


This isn't likely the case. In an elliptical orbit, the further away the body gets, the less the impact of the Earth's gravity. Over a long period of time, circular orbit may be the steady state condition, but as with the planets around the sun, it may never go fully circular on its own.


----------



## Carl Spock

harsh said:


> This isn't likely the case. In an elliptical orbit, the further away the body gets, the less the impact of the Earth's gravity. Over a long period of time, circular orbit may be the steady state condition, but as with the planets around the sun, it may never go fully circular on its own.


I didn't say fully circular. Yes, all planets and satellites are in elliptical orbits, but my bet is that if we could go back in time, we would find that many of them were more elliptical before. Initially the orbit of DirecT11 started out highly elliptical. My question is what portion of making it more circular is accomplished by Earth's gravity, over this 4-6 week time scale, and what part is done through rocket power?


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 35 ... slightly higher ... +238km:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE35)
1 32729U 08013A   08104.58449590 -.00000365  00000-0  00000+0 0   357
2 32729 000.1548 273.0997 1295943 288.1720 152.2021 01.00588154   376

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-13-2008 14:01:40[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination		0.155
RA of A. Node		273.100
Eccentricity		0.1295943
Argument of Perigee	288.172
Revs per day		1.00588154
Period			23h 51m 34s (1431.57 min)
Semi-major axis		42 076 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30 245 x 41 151 km[/B]
Element number / age	35 / 1 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) [B]30,245 x 41,151 km[/B] (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## LameLefty

Carl Spock said:


> I didn't say fully circular. Yes, all planets and satellites are in elliptical orbits, but my bet is that if we could go back in time, we would find that many of them were more elliptical before. Initially the orbit of DirecT11 started out highly elliptical. My question is what portion of making it more circular is accomplished by Earth's gravity, over this 4-6 week time scale, and what part is done through rocket power?


All of it is done through rocket thrust, with the exception of the effects of lunar and solar gravity. What circularizes the path of a marble in a bowl is the force of friction. The ball is rolling against the surface of the bowl and the coefficient of friction between the rolling surface of the ball and and air it's passing through modifies the path.

In orbit, there is no equivalent to rolling friction, and atmospheric drag forces are fairly insignificant above several hundred miles' altitude (medium-earth orbit and higher). There, solar radiation pressure and the gravity of the moon (and to a much lesser effect, the sun) are the biggest perturbations to an elliptical orbit.


----------



## Carl Spock

So then what has circularized the orbits of satellites of Jupiter and Saturn? As we know, most of their satellites are captured asteroids or comets. Initially their orbits had to be highly elliptical. Now they aren't nearly so. Just the atmospheres of the the host planets and the gravity of other satellites and the Sun did all the work?

Let me ask the question another way. Is a highly elliptical orbit as stable as any other?


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 36 & 37 ... slight change ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE37)
1 32729U 08013A   08105.60000000 -.00000366  00000-0  00000+0 0   373
2 32729 000.1510 271.0530 1294077 290.2370 160.0200 01.00624340   383

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-14-2008 14:24:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	38
Inclination		0.151
RA of A. Node		271.053
Eccentricity		0.1294077
Argument of Perigee	290.237
Revs per day		1.00624340
Period			23h 51m 03s (1431.5 min)
Semi-major axis		42 066 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30 244 x 41 132 km[/B]
Element number / age	37 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) [B]30,244 x 41,132 km[/B] (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## dms1

harsh said:


> This isn't likely the case. In an elliptical orbit, the further away the body gets, the less the impact of the Earth's gravity. Over a long period of time, circular orbit may be the steady state condition, but as with the planets around the sun, it may never go fully circular on its own.


As demonstrated by Kepler and later proved by Newton, an ellipse with the appropriate parameters is a perfectly valid and stable orbit for a body orbiting around another body in the absence of any force other than gravity. A circular orbit is just a special case of an elliptical orbit. Gravity can never circularize an orbit since it needs an additional force to move from one stable orbit to another. Therefore, an additional force such as that from a rocket burn is needed to change the orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

Carl Spock said:


> So then what has circularized the orbits of satellites of Jupiter and Saturn? As we know, most of their satellites are captured asteroids or comets. Initially their orbits had to be highly elliptical. Now they aren't nearly so. Just the atmospheres of the the host planets and the gravity of other satellites and the Sun did all the work?


Yes, and it took a LOOOOOONG time. And actually, they aren't entirely circular; all natural orbits in our solar system have some measurable eccentricity. Check out Pluto sometime.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> Yes, and it took a LOOOOOONG time. And actually, they aren't entirely circular; all natural orbits in our solar system have some measurable eccentricity. Check out Pluto sometime.


You also have to remember that these are very complex multi-body systems as opposed to an artificial satellite orbiting close to the Earth in which one only considers the satellite and the Earth and ignores everything else in the Universe. Indeed, anything more complex than this cannot in general be solved algebraically.


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08105.85000000 -.00000368 00000-0 00000+0 0 383
2 32729 000.1480 274.4940 1280702 286.9170 250.3130 01.00442513 386

Name	D11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-14 20:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	38
Inclination	0.148
RA of A. Node	274.494
Eccentricity	0.1280702
Argument of Perigee	286.917
Revs per day	1.00442513
Period	23h 53m 39s (1433.65 min)
Semi-major axis	42 117 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 345 x 41 133 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	250.313
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	38 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## syphix

wilmot3 said:


> 1 32729U 08013A 08105.85000000 -.00000368 00000-0 00000+0 0 383
> 2 32729 000.1480 274.4940 1280702 286.9170 250.3130 01.00442513 386
> ....
> Perigee x Apogee	30 345 x 41 133 km
> ....


Getting there....


----------



## jefbal99

syphix said:


> Getting there....


Perigee up another 100 ft


----------



## Jeremy W

jefbal99 said:


> Perigee up another 100 ft


That would be 100km. Close, though.


----------



## ziltomil

jefbal99 said:


> Perigee up another 100 ft


:nono: kilometers:nono2:

Let's move away from imperial measurements and on to metric.


----------



## davemayo

ziltomil said:


> :nono: kilometers:nono2:
> 
> Let's move away from imperial measurements and on to metric.


Good luck with that one....


----------



## Sixto

wilmot3 said:


> 1 32729U 08013A 08105.85000000 -.00000368 00000-0 00000+0 0 383
> 2 32729 000.1480 274.4940 1280702 286.9170 250.3130 01.00442513 386
> 00 1/ER





Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## ziltomil

davemayo said:


> Good luck with that one....


I know, metric has been a legal system of measurement in the US for 140+ years


----------



## bubbers44

cartrivision said:


> Actually, the apogee is usually unchanged when the perigee is raised. They usually do a perigee raising burn at apogee (because it's most efficient to do it there), which raises the perigee without significantly raising or lowering the apogee.


Actually the apogee always drops when the perigee is raised. Not very much but it always does because physics requires it to. Just check the last few significant burns and you will see it. The satellite is just orbiting around a center of mass and being boosted to a higher perigee will cause it to recenter over the center of mass bringing in the apogee to a lower point in it's orbit.


----------



## jefbal99

ziltomil said:


> :nono: kilometers:nono2:
> 
> Let's move away from imperial measurements and on to metric.


drat, foiled again


----------



## MattWarner

ziltomil said:


> Let's move away from imperial measurements and on to metric.


Tell that to the Mars Climate Orbiter! :eek2:


----------



## ziltomil

bubbers44 said:


> Actually the apogee always drops when the perigee is raised. Not very much but it always does because physics requires it to. Just check the last few significant burns and you will see it. The satellite is just orbiting around a center of mass and being boosted to a higher perigee will cause it to recenter over the center of mass bringing in the apogee to a lower point in it's orbit.


:nono2: :nono: 
What you said was total non-sense. 
There is no phenomena in nature that says "For every rise in perigee, the apogee will necessarily lower." The apogee lowered in the last tle's because directv intended it to with the burn.


----------



## Tiger62

ziltomil said:


> :nono2: :nono:
> What you said was total non-sense.
> There is no phenomena in nature that says "For every rise in perigee, the apogee will necessarily lower." The apogee lowered in the last tle's because directv intended it to with the burn.


You took the words right out of my mouth! They could do an apogee burn without affecting the apogee one iota. Depends entirely on the thrust vector.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Actually the apogee always drops when the perigee is raised. Not very much but it always does because physics requires it to. Just check the last few significant burns and you will see it. The satellite is just orbiting around a center of mass and being boosted to a higher perigee will cause it to recenter over the center of mass bringing in the apogee to a lower point in it's orbit.


That is incorrect&#8230;. both in your explanation of the physics that you say "requires" it to happen that way and in what we have actually observed happening with D11. If you look at every major perigee increase of D11 (such as from TLE 10 to TLE 11, 14 to 15, and 18 to 21), the apogee always increased slightly (but not significantly) when the perigee was significantly raised (i.e. raised by more than 50%). The apogee after those major perigee increases didn't drop as you say physics requires it to do. That's not to say that you couldn't raise the perigee and also lower the apogee, but there is no law of phyisics that dictates that doing the former will cause the latter, and that is not at all what has happend after every major increase in the perigee of D11.


----------



## bubbers44

What you said was total non-sense. 
There is no phenomena in nature that says "For every rise in perigee, the apogee will necessarily lower." The apogee lowered in the last tle's because directv intended it to with the burn. 

Now how could directv with one burn do all of that? Just look at the last few days of burns and how every increase in perigee decreased the apogee. Not that much but consistent with the laws of physics.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> What you said was total non-sense.
> There is no phenomena in nature that says "For every rise in perigee, the apogee will necessarily lower." The apogee lowered in the last tle's because directv intended it to with the burn.
> 
> Now how could directv with one burn do all of that? Just look at the last few days of burns and how every increase in perigee decreased the apogee. Not that much but consistent with the laws of physics.


Would you care to explain precisely which law of physics this is consistent with.


----------



## ziltomil

bubbers44 said:


> Now how could directv with one burn do all of that?


Maybe, burn with a vector pointed slightly towards earth rather than perpendicular to it..?


----------



## bubbers44

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30 007 x 41 174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)

Just an example.


----------



## bubbers44

Remember Apollo 13 and how they got back to earth? If they had not brought their craft close enough to the moon they could not have gotten home. That force that brought them back was the same force that satellites use to keep the apogee. When you increase the perigee altitude you can't get the same energy to send the satellite as far out in the opposite direction.


----------



## bubbers44

Tom Hanks is still thanking those guys for understanding physics.


----------



## bubbers44

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days

More data on how physics works. Don't know the law number.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
> TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30 007 x 41 174 km (+23.7 hours, at 23.9 days)
> TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+23.7 hours, at 22.9 days)
> TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+23.7 hours, at 21.9 days)
> TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+2.4 hours, at 20.9 days)
> TLE#30 (04-09-2008 12:42:41) 29,623 x 41,226 km (+25.8 hours, at 20.8 days)
> 
> Just an example.


Those are *not* significant perigee changes. They are all changes of less than ½ of one percent. Refer to the *significant* perigee changes that I referenced in my prior post (changes of 70 to several hundred percent) to see that the laws of physics as you understood and explained them were incorrect.

If the laws of physics as you explained them were correct, those significant increases in the perigee would be coupled with a corresponding significant decrease in the apogee, but they aren't&#8230;. they are coupled with a small increase in the apogee.


----------



## P Smith

He mistakenly thinking about one burn between TLE, but in reality it could be many.


----------



## ziltomil

bubbers44 said:


> Remember Apollo 13 and how they got back to earth? If they had not brought their craft close enough to the moon they could not have gotten home. That force that brought them back was the same force that satellites use to keep the apogee. When you increase the perigee altitude you can't get the same energy to send the satellite as far out in the opposite direction.


 This post is so confused I think trying to answer it will cause more confusion.

But I will answer the Apollo 13 thing. The objective of apollo 13 afer the accident wasn't to get closer to the moon. It was to fly far enough away so that the moons gravity didn't accelerate it to fast as to move their return path's perigee outside of earth's atmosphere. This is called a free-return trajectory. Before the accident they were on a "you'll crash into the moon if you don't turn at the appointed time trajectory." In fact, many of the apollo upper stages crashed into the moon.


----------



## LameLefty

bubbers44 - please go take an undergraduate orbital mechanics or astrodynamics class. As the "overnight shift" has pointed out, you are quite incorrect in most everything you have posted.


----------



## pilotboy72

bubbers44 said:


> Remember Apollo 13 and how they got back to earth? If they had not brought their craft close enough to the moon they could not have gotten home. That force that brought them back was the same force that satellites use to keep the apogee. When you increase the perigee altitude you can't get the same energy to send the satellite as far out in the opposite direction.


Remember that any adjustments to the orbit are being done by propulsion (rocket or other thruster) which adds energy to the craft, so the energy is not constant -- it is increasing. Thus, you still have the energy to reach the same apogee and raise perigee (using the energy from the burn). Is this a fair statement?


----------



## crashHD

bubbers44 said:


> Actually the apogee always drops when the perigee is raised. Not very much but it always does because physics requires it to.


There is something of a point to this. The total energy of the satellite is not changed except by outside forces (thruster burn, atmospheric drag, solar wind). It's total energy consists of it's kinetic energy(speed, in simple terms) and it's potential energy (altitude...height above gravity source).

At apogee, it is at it's highest altitude, and lowest speed. As it travels toward perigee, gravity accelerates it. At perigee, it's altitude is at the lowest point of it's orbit, and the speed is at the highest. Without an external force acting upon it, total energy stays the same, which means an increase in altitude is accompanied by a decrease in velocity. Now, from perigee, the sat trades off that speed to achieve the altitude of apogee. If the altitude of perigee is raised, then the speed of the satellite at perigee is reduced. This reduction in speed will result in the satellite achieving less altitude on return to apogee. This is all so long as there is not an external force acting to change the total energy of the satellite.

The monkey wrench in all of this is that the total energy of the satellite is not constant. It changes every time they do another burn. How it changes depends on the thrust vector, and the position/velocity of the satellite at the time of the burn. Without knowing that data, absolute determinations can not be made. An increase in perigee certainly has a tendency to decrease apogee. It depends on how these burns are performed. A burn directed perpendicular to the crafts velocity vector would alter the course of the craft, without changing the total energy of the craft, in effect, trading speeds and altitudes from apogee and perigee points. However, if that burn is not directed perpendicular to the velocity vector, such that it does increase/decrease total energy of the craft, it could be possible to change apogee/perigee independent of the other. If we really want to know, we need to ask the guy driving the remote control.

My physics is rusty. If I'm incorrect, someone please correct me. Please explain why if you do so, such that I may learn my error.


----------



## dms1

ziltomil said:


> Maybe, burn with a vector pointed slightly towards earth rather than perpendicular to it..?


I think that is a valid suggestion. Obviously the motor is operated for a finite time and since the orientation of the satellite in space is likely to be constant over that time, the applied thrust will not be tangential to the orbit for the entire time. This is a practicality and is one good reason for using lots of short maneuvering burns instead of a few long ones. It is not a "law of physics" as some want to suggest.


----------



## Tiger62

No offense, but some posters need to stop stating their "theories" and pure conjecture as scientific fact! New "laws of physics" are being created hourly!:lol:


----------



## dms1

Tiger62 said:


> No offense, but some posters need to stop stating their "theories" and pure conjecture as scientific fact! New "laws of physics" are being created hourly!:lol:


Quite. There are precisely three laws of physics that are needed to explain the motion of a satellite to a very good first order approximation - Newton's laws of motion.


----------



## JeffBowser

There are real rocket scientists on this thread. I would be very hesitant to say anything at all, unless you could meet their credentials.


----------



## carl6

JeffBowser said:


> There are real rocket scientists on this thread. I would be very hesitant to say anything at all, unless you could meet their credentials.


Which is exactly why this is my first and last post in this thread. I respect the incredible knowledge that is shared here, and have learned a lot. Thank you to those who do know what they are talking about.

Carl


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 39 ... +42km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE39)
1 32729U 08013A   08106.36618233 -.00000367  00000-0  00000+0 0   393
2 32729 000.1508 266.5276 1274030 294.7980 076.8525 01.00385868   382

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		04-15-2008 08:47:18
Orbit # at Epoch	38
Inclination		0.151
RA of A. Node		266.528
Eccentricity		0.1274030
Argument of Perigee	294.798
Revs per day		1.00385868
Period			23h 54m 27s (1434.45 min)
Semi-major axis		42 133 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 387 x 41 123 km
Element number / age	39 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## LameLefty

> If the altitude of perigee is raised, then the speed of the satellite at perigee is reduced. This reduction in speed will result in the satellite achieving less altitude on return to apogee. This is all so long as there is not an external force acting to change the total energy of the satellite.


The problem with this statement, standing alone, is it ignores the key fact: energy IS being added to the system by the thruster burn which raises perigee in the first place!

Gah. This thread is making my hair fall out.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> Gah. This thread is making my hair fall out.


Agreed. When people post something in a tone that suggests it is absolute fact and not speculation, I wish they would stick to what they actually know rather than what they think they might know. If they're not sure then just pose it as a question instead so that everyone else knows how to interpret it.


----------



## HoTat2

JeffBowser said:


> There are real rocket scientists on this thread. I would be very hesitant to say anything at all, unless you could meet their credentials.





carl6 said:


> Which is exactly why this is my first and last post in this thread. I respect the incredible knowledge that is shared here, and have learned a lot. Thank you to those who do know what they are talking about.
> 
> Carl


While true;

And certainly appreciated, it has to be conceded that even having credentialed and experienced people can only get us so far short of having someone who is actually there with the Boeing and DirecTV satellite controllers and engineers handling D11 to know all the details of its current status for certain.

Thus in spite of any level of expertise on this thread. We can at best only speculate about all the "why" and "when" of what Boeing and DirecTV are actually doing with the satellite at any specific time.


----------



## doctor j

As I've noticed before , the orbit is nearly circular just offset.
Looks to me from the freq. of changes and the trends that the plan is to raise perigee lower apogee with one or two small burns each revolution.
ie lower apogee 5000 Km raise perigee 5000 Km and BAM its at GSO.

just an interesting observation for the trends.

Doctor j


----------



## ub1934

Sixto said:


> TLE# 39 ... +42km ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE39)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08106.36618233 -.00000367  00000-0  00000+0 0   393
> 2 32729 000.1508 266.5276 1274030 294.7980 076.8525 01.00385868   382
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		04-15-2008 08:47:18
> Orbit # at Epoch	38
> Inclination		0.151
> RA of A. Node		266.528
> Eccentricity		0.1274030
> Argument of Perigee	294.798
> Revs per day		1.00385868
> Period			23h 54m 27s (1434.45 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 133 km
> Perigee x Apogee	30 387 x 41 123 km
> Element number / age	39 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)
> TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
> TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
> TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)
> TLE#35 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,245 x 41,151 km (+23.8 hours, at 24.9 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


 This is at orbit # 39 , Orbitron says it is in orbit # 56 , so what are the #s now ?


----------



## Indiana627

doctor j said:


> As I've noticed before , the orbit is nearly circular just offset.
> Looks to me from the freq. of changes and the trends that the plan is to raise perigee lower apogee with one or two small burns each revolution.
> ie lower apogee 5000 Km raise perigee 5000 Km and BAM its at GSO.
> 
> just an interesting observation for the trends.
> 
> Doctor j


Brilliant! If you subtract the last posted Perigee from the last posted Apogee, the difference is 10,736. Now divide that by 2 = 5,368. Now add 5,368 to last posted Perigee and you get 35,755. Subtract 5,368 from last posted Apogee and you get 35,755. 35,755 x 35,755 is very close to GSO. Great find doctor j!


----------



## raw121

doctor j said:


> As I've noticed before , the orbit is nearly circular just offset.
> Looks to me from the freq. of changes and the trends that the plan is to raise perigee lower apogee with one or two small burns each revolution.
> ie lower apogee 5000 Km raise perigee 5000 Km and BAM its at GSO.
> 
> just an interesting observation for the trends.
> 
> Doctor j


If i remember correctly from the D10 thread, the eccentricity is value to look at for how circular the orbit is.

D11


> Eccentricity 0.1274030


D10 has an Eccentricity of 0.0000132 according to Orbitron. So it has several orders of magnitude to go still.


----------



## dms1

doctor j said:


> As I've noticed before , the orbit is nearly circular just offset.
> Looks to me from the freq. of changes and the trends that the plan is to raise perigee lower apogee with one or two small burns each revolution.
> ie lower apogee 5000 Km raise perigee 5000 Km and BAM its at GSO.
> 
> just an interesting observation for the trends.
> 
> Doctor j


They need to raise the perigee before lowering the apogee to park it in a reasonable time. The satellite is currently too far east (it's oscillating between about 41 and 71 degrees west), and although it is slowly drifting west (the orbital period is about two minutes shorter than a sidereal day), it would take a long time to drift back to the right location if the perigee and apogee were changed alternatively. Therefore, I would expect to see more perigee-raising burns than apogee-lowering burns for the next few changes.


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> They need to raise the perigee before lowering the apogee to park it in a reasonable time. The satellite is currently too far east (it's oscillating between about 41 and 71 degrees west), and although it is slowly drifting west (the orbital period is about two minutes shorter than a sidereal day), it would take a long time to drift back to the right location if the perigee and apogee were changed alternatively. Therefore, I would expect to see more perigee-raising burns than apogee-lowering burns for the next few changes.


So let me get this straight dms1;

If they do a prograde burn at apogee (via an "apogee kick motor" or some other), it will raise the perigee while keeping D11's apogee constant above GSO altitude to permit a westward drift back to 99.2 WL?

Or the apogee kick could possibly even raise apogee slightly if the thrust vector is not exactly tangent to the apogee orbit point at burn time for an even faster westward drift?

But on the other hand, if they raise perigee by doing a retrograde burn at the perigee point in the orbit. In this case it will the lower the apogee proportionally?


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> So let me get this straight dms1;
> 
> If they do a prograde burn at apogee (via an "apogee kick motor" or some other), it will raise the perigee while keeping D11's apogee constant above GSO altitude to permit a westward drift back to 99.2 WL?
> 
> Or the apogee kick could possibly even raise apogee slightly if the thrust vector is not exactly tangent to the apogee orbit point at burn time for an even faster westward drift?
> 
> But on the other hand, if they raise perigee by doing a retrograde burn at the perigee point in the orbit. In this case it will the lower the apogee proportionally?


In theory, an ideal prograde burn at apogee will raise the perigee, and an ideal retrograde burn at perigee will lower the apogee. However, as discussed at length here over the last day (with varying degrees of understanding!), in a real situation each burn is likely to affect the orbit in a more complex way because the burn occurs over a finite time. However, these are just minor details.

At the moment, because D11's apogee is above GSO level and the perigee is below GSO level, it is not orbiting the Earth as such when viewed from a fixed location on the Earth's surface - instead it is oscillating east and west. As the orbit is circularized at the GSO level the range of oscillation will reduce until it is zero and the satellite appears stationary. However, this range is currently too far east of the final parking location. Therefore, unless they are going for a temporary parking spot for testing, which we have no evidence of from FCC filings, then the various burns are likely to be organized to raise the perigee before lowering the apogee so that the oscillation range drifts back west.


----------



## LameLefty

> But on the other hand, if they raise perigee by doing a retrograde burn at the perigee point in the orbit. In this case it will the lower the apogee proportionally?


This looks like two thoughts that got (accidentally?) conflated. A retrograde burn at perigee will lower the apogee but won't do much to the perigee (except incidentally, due to the non-instantaneous duration of the acceleration). It WILL, however, lower the apogee. Remember, total energy stays constant once the burn is over.

Of course, in circular orbits, the apogee and perigee are the same anyway, so the only factor you really care about when changing the orbit is where do you want the nodes of the new elliptical orbit you're creating by the velocity change. STS missions, for example, time their deorbit burns so that the new orbital perigee is low enough for the vehicle to have a low enough altitude at the correct geographical location over the earth's surface such that they can then steer to a controlled, flying landing.



> However, as discussed at length here over the last day (with varying degrees of understanding!), in a real situation each burn is likely to affect the orbit in a more complex way because the burn occurs over a finite time. However, these are just minor details.


As dms1 points out, they are minor details for this type of spacecraft and they way we are watching from a distance; our abstract discussions don't have to take those things into account. When you watch coverage of a manned mission, however, or of a long-duration interplanetary robotic mission, if you try to think about what we've been discussing and how it applies, remember that those velocity changes can last minutes or even longer. The longer the period of time over which the acceleration is taking place, the less our idealized abstractions apply and the more "messy" the calculations get. Typically such problem cannot be solved analytically (e.g., with a simple equation). Instead, the effect of the acceleration must be model in an iterative fashion. The duration of the burn is broken down into tiny steps, and at each step you calculate how much a change of velocity has or will occur for each bit of acceleration, taking into account the fact that the mass of the vehicle is changing at each tiny step too, to account for the fuel consumed. So long-duration burns result in very different actual trajectories than a simple solution based on a fixed mass, fixed thrust and (assumed) instant acceleration.


----------



## DIRECTV-11

Hi peeps! :wave: 

I am looking for a parking space as I write this. My batteries are charged, my body is surging with power, my transmitters are on and running fine.

Shouldn't be too much longer now until you get to see what I can deliver to you. And from what I have been told, it will be just awesome I promise.
 

On a very much sadder note, please take a few moments of silence to pay respect to my fallen cousin AMC-14. R.I.P. good buddy.
:angel:


----------



## JLucPicard

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hi peeps! :wave:
> 
> I am looking for a parking space as I write this. My batteries are charged, my body is surging with power, my transmitters are on and running fine.
> 
> Shouldn't be too much longer now until you get to see what I can deliver to you. And from what I have been told, it will be just awesome I promise.
> 
> 
> On a very much sadder note, please take a few moments of silence to pay respect to my fallen cousin AMC-14. R.I.P. good buddy.
> :angel:


FINALLY! A post I can understand!

Great news - sounds like all systems are nominal!

Waiting to see what you can do.


----------



## Jeremy W

DIRECTV-11 said:


> my transmitters are on and running fine.


How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


----------



## jlhoyt13432

Jeremy W said:


> How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


A drive by posting.........


----------



## Sixto

ub1934 said:


> This is at orbit # 39 , Orbitron says it is in orbit # 56 , so what are the #s now ?


Those numbers are directly from Oribitron with TLE# 39.

Orbit # at Epoch	38


----------



## Indiana627

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hi peeps! :wave:
> 
> I am looking for a parking space as I write this. My batteries are charged, my body is surging with power, my transmitters are on and running fine.
> 
> Shouldn't be too much longer now until you get to see what I can deliver to you. And from what I have been told, it will be just awesome I promise.
> 
> 
> On a very much sadder note, please take a few moments of silence to pay respect to my fallen cousin AMC-14. R.I.P. good buddy.
> :angel:


Good to hear from you! Can't wait to see what you can do!


----------



## dwrats_56

Jeremy W said:


> How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


The FCC granted DirecTV Special Temporary Authority for 60 days from March 24 to May 24 for six seperate line items. I can't find the specifics of the requests that were granted, but if I were a betting man they have to do with testing and transmitting. I don't think they would be doing anything illegal.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-281111A1.pdf


----------



## Jeremy W

dwrats_56 said:


> The FCC granted DirecTV Special Temporary Authority for 60 days from March 24 to May 24 for six seperate line items.


And none of them are concerning transmitting from a position that is oscillating between 41 and 71 degrees WL. I can tell you that without even seeing them, because that type of thing just doesn't happen.


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Are we sure of DirecTV-11's credentials? Or are we going on blind trust here


----------



## Tom Robertson

dwrats_56 said:


> The FCC granted DirecTV Special Temporary Authority for 60 days from March 24 to May 24 for six seperate line items. I can't find the specifics of the requests that were granted, but if I were a betting man they have to do with testing and transmitting. I don't think they would be doing anything illegal.
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-281111A1.pdf


A quick peek at 3 of them and by file type, I conclude these are all likely requests to test Earth stations, newly installed dishes at the regional or national broadcast centers, all as part of DIRECTV's infrastructure for DIRECTV11. woohoo!

Here is one sample request:


> *REQUEST FOR SPECIAL TEMPORARY AUTHORITY*
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests Special Temporary
> Authority ("STA") for up to 60 days beginning March 24, 2008 to conduct on-site testing of the 9.2-meter Ka-band earth station antenna recently installed at DIRECTV's Ellensburg, WA site, while its license application is being processed (see File No. SESLIC-20080306-00239). During these tests, the earth station will communicate with the SPACEWAY 2 satellite in the bands 19.7-20.2 GHz (downlink) and 29.5-30.0 GHz (uplink). In addition, the antenna will be rotated to zenith - directed away from the geostationary arc - to test its capability to sustain full-power operations over an extended period (approximately 24 hours).
> 
> The requested STA would serve the public interest by allowing DIRECTV to perform the testing necessary to establish the performance of its earth station antenna and resolve any issues in preparation for the expansion of local-into-local services DIRECTV expects to implement from its Ka-band DIRECTV 11 satellite, which was launched earlier this week. Accordingly, DIRECTV respectfully requests that the Commission grant this STA request as expeditiously as possible.


The FCC record of documents and filings for this request: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


A full-power test, probably so.

But that's not to say you can't test the components and subsystems to get a reasonably good idea that you're not going to blow a fuse when you crank up the juice.


----------



## dwrats_56

Jeremy W said:


> And none of them are concerning transmitting from a position that is oscillating between 41 and 71 degrees WL. I can tell you that without even seeing them, because that type of thing just doesn't happen.


Jeremy W, could you expand on what you are saying? Boeing will be transmitting to and receiving from DirecTV 11 enroute to its parking place.

" My brain Hurts" and I am just trying to understand.

Does anybody have any details about the Special Temprary Authority granted to DirecTV on March 24th??

Thanks


----------



## Tom Robertson

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Are we sure of DirecTV-11's credentials? Or are we going on blind trust here


He has sufficiently documented himself as reasonably able to gather and share correct information. Human errors can occur, of course. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Tom Robertson said:


> He has sufficiently documented himself as reasonably able to gather and share correct information. Human errors can occur, of course.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That's good enough for me.:joy:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


That would only be illegal if not permitted...

DIRECTV11 has authority to operate on its Tracking and Control frequencies (within limitations of non-interference with other satellites) thru-out the whole launch to park sequence--with a time limitation. (Which is typically instantaneously granted an extension of delays occur.)

While I have not found any as yet, it would be very possible for DIRECTV 11 to have full power testing from some orbital locations even while the orbit is being finalized. Yup, testing to Earth looks kinda strange if only permitted for 10 minutes a day, but good enough.

And, off axis, full power testing aimed away from Earth can be permitted for extended times to bake in the hardware.

All that said, I haven't found (for any of the satellites recently launched) filings for such testing. I haven't been exhaustive in my search, tho.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Carl Spock

Tom Robertson said:


> And, off axis, full power testing aimed away from Earth can be permitted for extended times to bake in the hardware.


No! Tom, don't tell me aliens orbiting Betelgeuse are receiveing an episode of _Saved By The Bell_ in a continuous loop, repeating endlessly, as DirecTV11 burns in.










We're doomed!


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> How can you be transmitting anything if you're not parked yet? That would be illegal.


telemetry data


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> All that said, I haven't found (for any of the satellites recently launched) filings for such testing. I haven't been exhaustive in my search, tho.


I've looked, and looked, and looked ... nothing I could find ... and thoroughly review the SAT-xxx releases every Friday. We'll see again this Friday ... 

Also just updated post#2 with a quick "synopsis" for new folks looking at this thread for the first time ... gonna tweak it over the next few days ... goal to make it easy to understand what we're tracking here.


----------



## curt8403

Carl Spock said:


> No! Tom, don't tell me aliens orbiting Betelgeuse are receiveing an episode of _Saved By The Bell_ in a continuous loop, repeating endlessly, as DirecTV11 burns in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're doomed!


it is probably ST TOS that is being beamed, and probably not Betelgeuse, it is way too big and hot to support life.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Carl Spock said:


> No! Tom, don't tell me aliens orbiting Betelgeuse are receiveing an episode of _Saved By The Bell_ in a continuous loop, repeating endlessly, as DirecTV11 burns in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're doomed!


Thankfully, more likely boring test patterns...


Sixto said:


> I've looked, and looked, and looked ... nothing I could find ... and thoroughly review the SAT-xxx releases every Friday. We'll see again this Friday ...
> 
> Also just updated post#2 with a quick "synopsis" for new folks looking at this thread for the first time ... gonna tweak it over the next few days ... goal to make it easy to understand what we're tracking here.


Sixto, you and a several others, find the FCC announcements faster than I do, so I've been more than happy to let you do that awesome legwork for us all.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Indiana627

So how many times a day are people going to check to see if 99c appeared in the signal strength screen? (Confession: I checked this morning.)


----------



## LameLefty

> Also just updated post#2 with a quick "synopsis" for new folks looking at this thread for the first time ... gonna tweak it over the next few days ... goal to make it easy to understand what we're tracking here.


Unfortunately, not many people start reading a long thread from the start - they'd rather jump into the last page. Oh well.


----------



## cartrivision

Indiana627 said:


> So how many times a day are people going to check to see if 99c appeared in the signal strength screen? (Confession: I checked this morning.)


Until the TLEs say that the sat is parked at 99W I don't care if the new transponder readouts are there or not.


----------



## spectrumsp

Indiana627 said:


> So how many times a day are people going to check to see if 99c appeared in the signal strength screen? (Confession: I checked this morning.)


Just checked...99b is still by its lonely self!


----------



## lwilli201

spectrumsp said:


> Just checked...99b is still by its lonely self!


Shows 99(s) on my HR21 with latest CE. But no 99(c) yet.


----------



## Tigerman73

LameLefty said:


> Unfortunately, not many people start reading a long thread from the start - they'd rather jump into the last page. Oh well.


You should reverse the thread so as they work back it'll make perfect sense.


----------



## bubbers44

Using the above orbit, which is a day old on update, if a burn is initiated as it headed down as I assume they have been doing somewhere abeam of entering the perigee half of the orbit why does everybody think I am so wrong in thinking the perigee would increase and the apogee would decrease slightly as it has been doing consistently for the past week? They are now increasing the perigee to make it drift west. They will use the apogee correction to stop the western drift and park it, won't they? I am asking a question since none of us have the info on how often and when they perform burns. Saving fuel must be a primary factor in accomplishing their mission. As many of you have mentioned I am a certified non rocket scientist. Just interested. Did fly the lunar lander simulator once though.


----------



## Ken984

DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08106.90000000 -.00000365 00000-0 00000+0 0 400
2 32729 000.1520 273.5410 1257195 287.8200 269.6100 01.00186149 398
Another small change


----------



## dwrats_56

Thanks to Tom for his replies.

And, with a little more digging on the FCC web site.

I did find the STA for DirecTV 11 that was granted in March. Here is a blurb from the PDF.

Purpose Of Operation:
Satellite testing
Station Locations
(1) MOBILE: Geostationary orbit at 100.7 WL +/- 0.3 degrees, 99 WL
(2) Moxee (YAKIMA), WA - NL 46-33-55; WL 120-23-53

From the FCC web site. https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/GenericSearch.cfm

I searched on Applicant Name: DirecTV

and found one document. Hope this is of some interest..


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Using the above orbit, which is a day old on update, if a burn is initiated as it headed down as I assume they have been doing somewhere abeam of entering the perigee half of the orbit why does everybody think I am so wrong in thinking the perigee would increase and the apogee would decrease slightly as it has been doing consistently for the past week? They are now increasing the perigee to make it drift west. They will use the apogee correction to stop the western drift and park it, won't they? I am asking a question since none of us have the info on how often and when they perform burns. Saving fuel must be a primary factor in accomplishing their mission. As many of you have mentioned I am a certified non rocket scientist. Just interested. Did fly the lunar lander simulator once though.


Nobody said that it's not possible to raise the perigee and also lower the apogee.... just that what you said about how that the laws of physics dictate that raising the perigee will make the apogee lower, is not correct.

You can raise both the perigee and apogee, raise the perigee and leave the apogee unchanged, lower both the perigee and the apogee, raise the perigee and lower the apogee, and a couple other combinations.

I have pointed it out to you twice now, but I have yet to see you acknowledge the evidence in the TLEs that I referenced where major changes in perigee were done, and the corresponding change in apogee did not follow your stated laws of physics. That data breaks the "laws of physics" that you said applies.

The bottom line is that raising the perigee doesn't automatically cause the apogee to be lower.... even though that *can* happen&#8230; it doesn't have to happen, meaning that the "laws of physics" that you claimed would cause the apogee to be lower if the perigee was raised were wrong and/or being incorrectly applied and interpreted by you.


----------



## bubbers44

cartrivision said:


> Nobody said that it's not possible to raise the perigee and also lower the apogee.... just that what you said about how that the laws of physics dictate that raising the perigee will make the apogee lower, is not correct.
> 
> You can raise both the perigee and apogee, raise the perigee and leave the apogee unchanged, lower both the perigee and the apogee, raise the perigee and lower the apogee, and a couple other combinations.
> 
> I have pointed it out to you twice now, but I have yet to see you acknowledge the evidence in the TLEs that I referenced where major changes in perigee were done, and the corresponding change in apogee did not follow your stated laws of physics. That data breaks the "laws of physics" that you said applies.
> 
> The bottom line is that raising the perigee doesn't automatically cause the apogee to be lower.... even though that *can* happen&#8230; it doesn't have to happen, meaning that the "laws of physics" that you claimed would cause the apogee to be lower if the perigee was raised were wrong and/or being incorrectly applied and interpreted by you.


Increasing the entire orbit, both perigee and apogee, I agree, both would be increased. Now they are raising the perigee. I thought that was what we were all talking about. What has been happening for the last 10 days. They don't need any apogee change now. They will use that energy later to park it once it drifts west into position. The next burn will be a perigee increase and the following apogee smaller decrease all caused by a single burn. I am sorry if I was not clear but I am talking about what is happening now to put it in geostationary orbit, not how to got it up there in the first place.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> DIRECTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A 08106.90000000 -.00000365 00000-0 00000+0 0 400
> 2 32729 000.1520 273.5410 1257195 287.8200 269.6100 01.00186149 398
> Another small change


yep, +120km ... little-by-little ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE40)
1 32729U 08013A   08106.90000000 -.00000365  00000-0  00000+0 0   400
2 32729 000.1520 273.5410 1257195 287.8200 269.6100 01.00186149   398

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-15-2008 21:36:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	39
Inclination		0.152
RA of A. Node		273.541
Eccentricity		0.1257195
Argument of Perigee	287.820
Revs per day		1.00186149
Period			23h 57m 19s (1437.32 min)
Semi-major axis		42 189 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30 507 x 41 115 km[/B]
Element number / age	40 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#40 (04-15-2008 21:36:00) [B]30,507 x 41,115 km[/B] (+12.8 hours, at 27.2 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+24.3 hours, at 25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 24.9 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## LameLefty

bubbers44 said:


> Increasing the entire orbit, both perigee and apogee, I agree, both would be increased. Now they are raising the perigee.


Raising the perigee has absolutely nothing to do with changing the apogee one way or the other except incidentally, unless you are trying (wastefully) do do both at once.


----------



## dwrats_56

Just for fun.

I think the group would like to see DirecTV 11 parked like this.....






What we are getting is a lesson in orbital science and patience.

Thanks to all the rocket scientist:gott:


----------



## Sixto

dwrats_56 said:


> I did find the STA for DirecTV 11 that was granted in March. Here is a blurb from the PDF ...


Yep, post #2 refers to the original FCC doc from 10/10/2007, and then the update 3/21/2008 with Report No. SAT-00509.

Also, Spaceway 2 is being moved slightly.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-608A1.pdf


----------



## bubbers44

LameLefty said:


> Raising the perigee has absolutely nothing to do with changing the apogee one way or the other except incidentally, unless you are trying (wastefully) do do both at once.


So, do all rocket scientists support this statement?


----------



## JLucPicard

OMG! Give it a rest!


----------



## bubbers44

ok, just look at the adjustments of perigee and see what happens. case closed.


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> telemetry data


Of course I know it's been transmitting telemetry data the whole time, I am not an idiot.  I was talking about the Ka transponders transmitting as they would during regular operation of the satellite.


----------



## bobnielsen

bubbers44 said:


> So, do all rocket scientists support this statement?


I haven't done any rocket science for several years, but I believe that LameLefty is correct.


----------



## smiddy

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hi peeps! :wave:
> 
> I am looking for a parking space as I write this. My batteries are charged, my body is surging with power, my transmitters are on and running fine.
> 
> Shouldn't be too much longer now until you get to see what I can deliver to you. And from what I have been told, it will be just awesome I promise.
> 
> 
> On a very much sadder note, please take a few moments of silence to pay respect to my fallen cousin AMC-14. R.I.P. good buddy.
> :angel:


We can't wait...you make us all excited! 

A Moment Of Silence for AMC-14....


----------



## generalpatton78

Sixto I just read your post (#2) on the first page and just wanted to say thanks. That's a fantastic job you've done summarizing everything and providing allot of info that visitors will be able to understand.


----------



## Tiger62

bubbers44 said:


> So, do all rocket scientists support this statement?


As a former (now retired) rocket scientist, I can say unequivocally that LameLefty is correct!


----------



## Interceptor

bubbers44 said:


> ok, just look at the adjustments of perigee and see what happens. case closed.


I believe LameLefty is correct. Wait... I'm not a rocket scientist. 

OK, show me the correlation between the last 20 TLEs. How are they similar?



Code:


ELSET	Perigee x Apogee	  ∆ in Perigee (km)	∆ in Apogee (km)
21	29 456 x 41 232 km      Start	                Start
22	29 624 x 41 227 km      168	                 -5
23	29 622 x 41 228 km      -2	                  1
24	29 621 x 41 228 km      -1	                  0
25	29 621 x 41 228 km       0	                  0
26	29 621 x 41 228 km       0	                  0
27	29 621 x 41 228 km       0	                  0
28	29 622 x 41 228 km       1	                  0
29	29 622 x 41 228 km       0	                  0
30	29 623 x 41 226 km       1	                -2
31	29 723 x 41 211 km     100	                -15
32	29 864 x 41 198 km     141	                -13
33	29 861 x 41 195 km     -3	                -3
34	30 007 x 41 174 km     146	                -21
35	30 245 x 41 151 km     238	                -23
36	30 244 x 41 142 km      -1	                -9
37	30 244 x 41 132 km       0	                -10
38	30 345 x 41 133 km      101	                  1
39	30 387 x 41 123 km      42	                -10
40	30 507 x 41 115 km     140	                -8

I'm listening.

While I'm sure they are conserving as much fuel as possible, I don't think anyone who regularly posts to this board knows exactly what is going on between TLEs. We act like they are doing only on brief burst between each set, when in all honesty, they might very well be doing multiple adjustment burns between each set we receive.


----------



## ziltomil

Did you guys just read that our chances of dying Armageddon style went up 100 times because of GEO sats?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gCYuTo7K5ZczEuPJv2LlegppLxjA


----------



## cartrivision

ziltomil said:


> Did you guys just read that our chances of dying Armageddon style went up 100 times because of GEO sats?
> 
> http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gCYuTo7K5ZczEuPJv2LlegppLxjA


I hope the asteroid takes out a DISH sat and not a DirecTV one. I'm going to want all my HD during that last orbit before it hits earth.


----------



## DennisG

LameLefty said:


> Raising the perigee has absolutely nothing to do with changing the apogee one way or the other except incidentally, unless you are trying (wastefully) do do both at once.





bubbers44 said:


> So, do all rocket scientists support this statement?





bobnielsen said:


> I haven't done any rocket science for several years, but I believe that LameLefty is correct.





Tiger62 said:


> As a former (now retired) rocket scientist, I can say unequivocally that LameLefty is correct!


It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that you will lose an agrument on the physics behind orbital motion when you argue with real "Rocket Scientists".

After reading the numerous informative posts by all of our real Rocket Scientists in the D10 and D11 threads, my money is with LameLefty and our other resident experts.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DennisG said:


> It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that you will lose an agrument on the physics behind orbital motion when you argue with real "Rocket Scientists".
> 
> After reading the numerous informative posts by all of our real Rocket Scientists in the D10 and D11 threads, my money is with LameLefty and our other resident experts.


Well said, and nice compliments to some really good people.

I'm going to turn this argument by about 33 and 1/3°... 

If I, Tom (not a rocket scientist) tried to adjust a satellite's orbit, I'd much it up and would change ALL the parameters (and most likely very badly.) (No, I'm not putting myself down, I also know that I can learn, would try to learn, and then still leave it up to LameLefty.) 

Yes, it is VERY easy to affect all thems descriptors within a TLE. Burn 1s too long, too late, too early, egad the damage I could do. :lol:

What I hear LameLefty (and the other really, really good people) say is that "We ain't stupid. We model, simulate, test, test, test, model, and simulate each maneuver very, very, very carefully." To the point they can adjust any one, group of, or all the TLE parameters as they wish.

I've PM'ed LameLefty in the past, one of the things I've learned is small moves. Don't adjust both perigee and apogee at the same time (most of the time.) Circularize or flatten. Not both.

So part of me thinks, Bubbers44 is kinda right--if I were driving cuz I don't know what I'm doing and would turn down the opportunity to drive anything other AMC-14 right now. If I were driving I couldn't control apogee separate from perigee...

Where Bubbers44 is really wrong is that these guys at Boeing, DIRECTV, Loral, etc. do know what they are doing, have done it a time or two by now, and can exert exactly the right movement at the right time to get the exact orbit change they want. Perigee sometimes, apogee others, flatter, circular, test beams toward the moon, anything they want.

<friendly moderator voice> So I'm asking this whole sidebar be put to rest. These are experts. If you disagree with my thinking on this part of the puzzle, PM me or an expert. Let us not bring any more of this up this summer.

If in your pleadings to me, I decide some parts of that discussion are relevant to D11, I'll put them in.

Fair 'nuff?

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Let us not bring any more of this up this summer.


Is this a hint that the satellite won't be parked/operational until sometime during the summer??? :eek2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> Is this a hint that the satellite won't be parked/operational until sometime during the summer??? :eek2:


Nope not at all (and you kow better than that...)


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> you kow better than that...


Of course, I just couldn't let that slip by!


----------



## badhabit2112

ziltomil said:


> Did you guys just read that our chances of dying Armageddon style went up 100 times because of GEO sats?
> 
> http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gCYuTo7K5ZczEuPJv2LlegppLxjA


Not so fast...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/16/esa_german_schoolboy_apophis_denial/

This one fooled everyone...


----------



## generalpatton78

I can't wait until the "soon" time frames start popping back up lol.


----------



## davemayo

This may be a dumb question, but...

Is it possible that these very small differences in perigee and apogee between TLEs are just a product of the margin of error inherent in the measurement technique? It seems to me that when you are measuring something 30-40,000 km away, a difference of less than 100km is not necessarily indicative of an actual movement.

Maybe the technology is sophisticated enough that the margin of error is a fraction of a km and differences of 1km, 10km, 100km are measurable.

Just a thought from a scientist, but not of the "rocket" variety.


----------



## Ken984

I am no rocket scientist either, but it seems to me that any difference is measurable, and controllable. It would have to be for them to keep the sats "stationary" so our dishes do not have to move.



davemayo said:


> This may be a dumb question, but...
> 
> Is it possible that these very small differences in perigee and apogee between TLEs are just a product of the margin of error inherent in the measurement technique? It seems to me that when you are measuring something 30-40,000 km away, a difference of less than 100km is not necessarily indicative of an actual movement.
> 
> Maybe the technology is sophisticated enough that the margin of error is a fraction of a km and differences of 1km, 10km, 100km are measurable.
> 
> Just a thought from a scientist, but not of the "rocket" variety.


----------



## davemayo

Ken984 said:


> I am no rocket scientist either, but it seems to me that any difference is measurable, and controllable. It would have to be for them to keep the sats "stationary" so our dishes do not have to move.


Yeah, but I thought even the spot beams are 100-200 miles wide, so any slight movement by the sat will not require a dish adjustment unless you live on the edge of the spot beam. Don't know.


----------



## P Smith

davemayo said:


> Yeah, but I thought even the spot beams are 100-200 miles wide, so any slight movement by the sat will not require a dish adjustment unless you live on the edge of the spot beam. Don't know.


Wrong reverse view - our dishes pointed from Earth to the sats with one or two degree precision.

Measuring orbit's parameters have very precise deviation, less then mentioned values.


----------



## bobnielsen

davemayo said:


> Yeah, but I thought even the spot beams are 100-200 miles wide, so any slight movement by the sat will not require a dish adjustment unless you live on the edge of the spot beam. Don't know.


The size of the spot beam is dependent on the beamwidth of the antenna on the satellite itself. The dish on your house has a much wider beam and wouldn't have to be repointed unless the satellite moved several hundred miles (which would be well outside of the limits of their FCC license).


----------



## P Smith

"The dish on your house has a much wider beam" - actually wrong. Opposite way to downstream antenna. 

All our sat antennas have _narrow_ beam for precise selection of one sat and gaining higher signal level.


----------



## Fish Man

dwrats_56 said:


> " My brain Hurts" and I am just trying to understand.


LOL!!! :lol:

Seeing your avatar, I was going to ask you if your brain hurts!

Now:

:backtotop


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> "The dish on your house has a much wider beam" - actually wrong. Opposite way to downstream antenna.
> 
> All our sat antennas have _narrow_ beam for precise selection of one sat and gaining higher signal level.


Curious though;

On a related note;

Are at least one the reasons the earth station uplink antennas must be so large (9.2m for the Ka band types for instance) is to give their transmission beam a sufficient resolution to allow selection of a single satellite to even within co-location separation distances?

That is to say, having a 9.2m or approx. 30 ft. diameter uplink dish operating on the Ka band (therefore high aspect ratio) would have a sufficiently narrow beam for the selection of either the Spaceway 1/2 or D10/11 satellites at 99 or 103, even though the satellites at both slots appear as co-located and one to our much smaller and therefore lower resolution (far lower aspect ratio) home antennas?


----------



## P Smith

Correct. Also, those uplink antennas are transmitting type with all that design for mega-power feed.

Close co-location could be served by one big dish, there are other methods exists of separating control commands and feeds.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> "The dish on your house has a much wider beam" - actually wrong. Opposite way to downstream antenna.
> 
> All our sat antennas have _narrow_ beam for precise selection of one sat and gaining higher signal level.


I'll stick by my statement. They are both narrow beams with high gain. The AU9 has a half-power beamwidth (azimuth) of about 2 degrees at Ku band and about 1.5 degrees at Ka band (~70 x wavelength/diameter), probably a bit greater for 110 and 119, since they are offset. The spotbeam antennas on the satellites have beamwidths which are probably well under 1 degree, based on the reported spot sizes (100-150 miles). Conus beams are much wider, of course.


----------



## P Smith

OK, them "much wider beam" wording didn't go well.


----------



## bobnielsen

Yeah, "much" isn't very precise. I didn't actually crank through the numbers until later


----------



## wilmot3

1 32729U 08013A 08107.41582196 -.00000362 00000-0 00000+0 0 427
2 32729 000.1466 272.1730 1253572 289.1984 095.5103 01.00150852 397 

Name	D11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-16 09:58:47
Orbit # at Epoch	39
Inclination	0.147
RA of A. Node	272.173
Eccentricity	0.1253572
Argument of Perigee	289.198
Revs per day	1.00150852
Period	23h 57m 49s (1437.82 min)
Semi-major axis	42 199 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 531 x 41 110 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	95.510
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	42 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Matt9876

Eccentricity 0.1253572
Revs per day 1.00150852
Semi-major axis 42,199 km

Close to parking this bird they are !!


----------



## smiddy

Matt9876 said:


> Eccentricity 0.1253572
> Revs per day 1.00150852
> Semi-major axis 42,199 km
> 
> Close to parking this bird they are !!


You talk like Yoda!  Sorry, I just saw Star Wars III. I agree though...getting there. I can't wait...


----------



## azarby

Matt9876 said:


> Eccentricity 0.1253572
> Revs per day 1.00150852
> Semi-major axis 42,199 km
> 
> Close to parking this bird they are !!


Impatient are we? Still many thousand of miles to go.

Bob


----------



## smiddy

azarby said:


> Impatient are we? Still many thousand of miles to go.
> 
> Bob


What's a thousand miles when you're tens of millions of meters into the sky? (or is that amoungst friends?)


----------



## doctor j

Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd run some numbers to test my hypothesis.
I have asserted that D 11's orbit for the most part has been circular for a while, just offset compared to the center of the earth.

Look at the last TLE as an example:

Eccentricity 0.1253572
Period 23h 57m 49s (1437.82 min)
Semi-major axis 42 199 km
Perigee x Apogee 30 531 x 41 110 km

If one adds Apogee + Perigee + 2x Earth Radius (6378 Km) = 84397
Divide by 2 to get radius if circular you get 42198.5 Km 
ah ha! the semi major axis above is 42199 Km. proof #1

if the offset is 1/2 the difference between apogee and perigee
41110 - 30531 = 10579/2 = 5289.5 
and calculate the eccentricity of a circle seen as an ellipse from the center of the earth (see sixto's picture in post #2 to visualize this)

e= c/a c is the offset (5289.5) a is the radius (semimajor axis of a circle) 42199
e= .12535

ah ha! the exact eccentricity of D 11 above to the significant figures of my calculations.

Doesn't mean anything but helps me pass my insomniac time.

So the changes in orbit within a small error have been shifting the circle toward the center of the earth. ??

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

> I have asserted that D 11's orbit for the most part has been circular for a while, just offset compared to the center of the earth.


A circle is a subset of conic functions, a shape with only one focus (e.g., the center). In the context of an orbit, that focus is at the center of mass of the Earth. An ellipse has two foci, one at each of the longer ends of the shape. In the context of an orbit, one focus of the ellipse is at the center of mass of the earth down near the perigee, and the other is towards the apogee end. In a mildly-elliptical orbit (as D11's has become), these two points are relatively close together. At this point, in fact, both are located inside the Earth, though only one is at the center of mass. The other is offset some amount towards the apogee.

In any event, the eccentricity of an ellipse describes how round or oblong it is; compared to the already-positioned satellites in Directv's fleet, D11 has to reduce eccentricity by at least a factor of ten if not one hundred (and thus merge those two foci into more or less a single point) before the orbit can truly be said to be circular.


----------



## doctor j

I understand what you are saying.

Let me state my point differently.
D 11's "path" is circular. As an orbit it is obviously an ellipse. However viewed from space the path is circular for whatever reason.

Take D 10's circular orbit, shift it parallel to the equator about 5000 km do the calculations and what do you get?
D11's path. No judgement as to how or why just mathematical calculations that fit the description.

I thought it was curious.

Doctor j


----------



## EaglePC

hope this new sat,gives us a chance of a few channels that are broadcast in1080p...
Eagle got his new TV Wow I am blown away how it loooks now

LG 52" 16:9 5ms 1080p LCD HDTV 52LB5D


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> I understand what you are saying.
> 
> Let me state my point differently.
> D 11's "path" is circular. As an orbit it is obviously an ellipse. However viewed from space the path is circular for whatever reason.


No, actually, the path is still elliptical. If you traced it out on paper and measured the apparent radius or diameter all the way around the perimeter, you'd see that it's still (slightly) oblong. The semi-major axis (the longer part) is JUSt a little bit longer than the semi-minor access (the narrower part). Until the eccentricity is much lower (in the range of 0.00xxxx, just like the other GSO sats), the orbit is still an ellipse and will "wobble" in it's ground track.

But to the naked eye just looking at it on a computer screen, without detailed measurements, the path APPEARS circular because the eccentricity, while not as low as it will be, is already pretty small.


----------



## loudo

EaglePC said:


> hope this new sat,gives us a chance of a few channels that are broadcast in1080p...
> Eagle got his new TV Wow I am blown away how it loooks now
> 
> LG 52" 16:9 5ms 1080p LCD HDTV 52LB5D


I don't think any of the DirecTV receivers are capable of receiving anything above 1080i, at this current time.


----------



## 66stang351

doctor j said:


> Couldn't sleep so I thought I'd run some numbers to test my hypothesis.
> I have asserted that D 11's orbit for the most part has been circular for a while, just offset compared to the center of the earth.
> 
> Look at the last TLE as an example:
> 
> Eccentricity 0.1253572
> Period 23h 57m 49s (1437.82 min)
> Semi-major axis 42 199 km
> Perigee x Apogee 30 531 x 41 110 km
> 
> If one adds Apogee + Perigee + 2x Earth Radius (6378 Km) = 84397
> Divide by 2 to get radius if circular you get 42198.5 Km
> ah ha! the semi major axis above is 42199 Km. proof #1
> 
> if the offset is 1/2 the difference between apogee and perigee
> 41110 - 30531 = 10579/2 = 5289.5
> and calculate the eccentricity of a circle seen as an ellipse from the center of the earth (see sixto's picture in post #2 to visualize this)
> 
> e= c/a c is the offset (5289.5) a is the radius (semimajor axis of a circle) 42199
> e= .12535
> 
> ah ha! the exact eccentricity of D 11 above to the significant figures of my calculations.
> 
> Doesn't mean anything but helps me pass my insomniac time.
> 
> So the changes in orbit within a small error have been shifting the circle toward the center of the earth. ??
> 
> Doctor j


Only problem is you don't take in to account the semi-minor axis. Using the formula (Semi-major)^2 = (semi-minor)^2 + (offset)^2 or (semi-minor)^2 = (1-eccentricity^2)*(semi-major)^2 we get a semi-minor axis = 41866km

Semi-major axis = 42199
Semi-minor axis = 41866

So even though the difference between the radius of a circle and the semi-major axis is only .5km the difference between that same radius and the semi-minor axis is 3 orders of magnitude higher. Still it is a fairly circular orbit...just not as close to circular as it would seem looking only at the semi-major axis.


----------



## Sixto

slight note ... TLE #41 is later then #42 ... not sure why but using #41 as latest for now ... this did happen once before.


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE41)
1 32729U 08013A   08107.90000000 -.00000358  00000-0  00000+0 0   414
2 32729 000.1550 273.7590 1244212 287.5320 270.1460 01.00055536   401

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-16-2008 21:36:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	40
Inclination		0.155
RA of A. Node		273.759
Eccentricity		0.1244212
Argument of Perigee	287.532
Revs per day		1.00055536
Period			23h 59m 12s (1439.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 225 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30 594 x 41 101 km[/B]
Element number / age	41 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) [B]30,594 x 41,101 km[/B] (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+12.4 hours, at 27.7 days)
TLE#40 (04-15-2008 21:36:00) 30,507 x 41,115 km (+12.8 hours, at 27.2 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)
TLE#38 (04-14-2008 20:24:00) 30,345 x 41,133 km (+ 6.0 hours, at 26.1 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## FHSPSU67

EaglePC said:


> hope this new sat,gives us a chance of a few channels that are broadcast in1080p...
> Eagle got his new TV Wow I am blown away how it loooks now
> 
> LG 52" 16:9 5ms 1080p LCD HDTV 52LB5D


Eagle, I think I can safely say that you were missed by everyone here during the launch of D11. Welcome back! And no 1080P broadcasts by anyone for the foreseeable future. 1080i or 720p in MPEG-4 is plenty good and there is no discernible difference with 1080p for most!


----------



## Sixto

EaglePC said:


> hope this new sat,gives us a chance of a few channels that are broadcast in1080p...
> Eagle got his new TV Wow I am blown away how it loooks now
> 
> LG 52" 16:9 5ms 1080p LCD HDTV 52LB5D


first post since 1/8 ... the eagle has landed!

welcome back.


----------



## dms1

doctor j said:


> Let me state my point differently.
> D 11's "path" is circular. As an orbit it is obviously an ellipse. However viewed from space the path is circular for whatever reason.
> 
> Take D 10's circular orbit, shift it parallel to the equator about 5000 km do the calculations and what do you get?
> D11's path. No judgement as to how or why just mathematical calculations that fit the description.


It is impossible to have an offset circular orbit for a freely orbiting body. As demonstrated by Kepler, all permissible orbits are ellipses with the body being orbited around located at one focus. A circle is a special case of an ellipse in which the two foci coincide. Therefore, any circular orbit around the Earth would have to have to be centered on the Earth's center of mass.

As LameLefty said, the orbit may look circular on a low-resolution plot, but it cannot possible be.


----------



## Interceptor

TLE 43



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08108.81660902 -.00000354  00000-0  00000+0 0   436
2 32729 000.1454 270.3299 1237722 291.1416 240.1337 01.00081641   415




Code:


Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-17 19:35:55
Orbit # at Epoch	41
Inclination	0.145
RA of A. Node	270.330
Eccentricity	0.1237722
Argument of Perigee	291.142
Revs per day	1.00081641
Period	23h 58m 49s (1438.82 min)
Semi-major axis	42 218 km
Perigee x Apogee	30 615 x 41 065 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	240.134
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	43 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## smiddy

For those of use text to visually challenged, how does that look in comparison to D10?


----------



## HoTat2

smiddy said:


> For those of use text to visually challenged, how does that look in comparison to D10?


I was wondering the same thing, how's it stacking up with D10's launch and positioning history as a comparison? I know there is undoubtedly a lot of testing of D11's onboard systems going on at the moment. But I still find it somewhat curious that Boeing and DirecTV seem to be quite content to remain in this particular approx. 30,000 by 41,000 km orbit this long.

If I didn't know any better, it's almost though they don't want cross the finish line.


----------



## computersecguy

okay... I had to post this... are we there yet?


----------



## Jeremy W

computersecguy said:


> okay... I had to post this... are we there yet?





Interceptor said:


> Perigee x Apogee	30 615 x 41 065 km


That would be a no.


----------



## Sixto

Interceptor said:


> TLE 43 ...


+21m ... and latest orbit ...


Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+12.4 hours, at 27.7 days)
TLE#40 (04-15-2008 21:36:00) 30,507 x 41,115 km (+12.8 hours, at 27.2 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+12.4 hours, at 26.6 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> I was wondering the same thing, how's it stacking up with D10's launch and positioning history as a comparison?


Thanks for the reminder ... been thinking of doing the comparison for a while ... here's the DirecTV-10 & DirecTV-11 TLE history ... D10 was not launched from the equator ...


Code:


[B][U]DirecTV-10 TLE History[/U][/B]
TLE#1  (07-07-2007 04:52:16)    414 x 35 813 km (Original)
TLE#3  (07-09-2007 04:25:36)  4 919 x 35 792 km (+2 days)
TLE#5  (07-10-2007 04:52:59)  4 921 x 36 526 km (+3 days)
TLE#6  (07-11-2007 07:12:00)  4 923 x 37 127 km (+4 days)
TLE#11 (07-13-2007 01:32:30)  8 277 x 37 105 km (+6 days)
TLE#16 (07-14-2007 09:52:02) 17 992 x 37 082 km (+7 days)
TLE#17 (07-15-2007 03:07:59) 17 994 x 37 083 km (+8 days)
TLE#21 (07-17-2007 11:41:20) 31 290 x 37 120 km (+10 days)
TLE#22 (07-18-2007 19:30:00) 34 206 x 37 119 km (+11 days)
TLE#23 (07-19-2007 09:14:17) 34 100 x 37 245 km (+12 days)
TLE#26 (07-20-2007 12:51:48) 34 099 x 37 129 km (+13 days)
TLE#27 (07-21-2007 03:43:32) 34 088 x 37 109 km (+14 days)
TLE#29 (07-22-2007 06:15:49) 34 085 x 37 109 km (+15 days)
TLE#30 (07-23-2007 03:16:52) 34 088 x 37 104 km (+16 days)
TLE#33 (07-24-2007 16:48:49) 34 123 x 37 099 km (+17 days)
TLE#34 (07-25-2007 08:07:20) 34 179 x 37 102 km (+18 days)
TLE#35 (07-26-2007 05:03:51) 34 239 x 37 050 km (+19 days)
TLE#37 (07-28-2007 04:11:40) 34 449 x 37 082 km (+21 days)
TLE#39 (07-31-2007 00:01:26) 34 759 x 36 906 km (+24 days)
TLE#40 (07-30-2007 22:34:52) 34 618 x 37 037 km (+23 days)
TLE#44 (08-02-2007 05:22:11) 35 111 x 36 572 km (+26 days)
TLE#45 (08-05-2007 04:20:00) 34 923 x 36 787 km (+29 days)
TLE#46 (08-07-2007 13:08:45) 35 603 x 36 177 km (+31 days)
TLE#47 (08-08-2007 15:48:09) 35 644 x 36 057 km (+32 days)
TLE#49 (08-09-2007 02:59:19) 35 630 x 36 051 km (+33 days)
TLE#51 (08-10-2007 10:48:47) 35 663 x 35 964 km (+34 days)
TLE#52 (08-11-2007 08:00:09) 35 740 x 35 919 km (+35 days)
TLE#53 (08-12-2007 07:47:17) 35 737 x 35 864 km (+36 days)
TLE#54 (08-13-2007 10:37:41) 35 739 x 35 876 km (+37 days)
TLE#55 (08-14-2007 06:59:19) 35 742 x 35 809 km (+38 days)
TLE#56 (08-16-2007 11:30:10) 35 784 x 35 789 km (+40 days)
TLE#57 (08-17-2007 10:21:06) 35 784 x 35 787 km (+41 days)




Code:


[B][U]DirecTV-11 TLE History[/U][/B]
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+27.7 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+26.6 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+20.9 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.7 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+18.9 days)
TLE#25 (04-06-2008 13:20:15) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.8 days)
TLE#24 (04-05-2008 16:35:47) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+13.0 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+10.4 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00)  7,388 x 40,988 km (+9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12)  7,392 x 40,992 km (+8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22)    468 x 40,744 km (+7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42)    468 x 40,742 km (+7.0 days)
TLE# 7 (03-26-2008 14:24:00)    474 x 40,738 km (+6.9 days)
TLE# 6 (03-25-2008 04:40:59)    463 x 38,996 km (+5.5 days)
TLE# 5 (03-24-2008 16:48:00)    473 x 38,991 km (+5.0 days)
TLE# 4 (03-24-2008 05:32:23)    463 x 36,484 km (+4.5 days)
TLE# 3 (03-20-2008 13:54:34)    268 x 36,474 km (+.9 days)
TLE# 2 (03-20-2008 04:58:00)    273 x 36,476 km (+.5 days)
TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29)    243 x 36,067 km (Original)


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Thanks for the reminder ... been thinking of doing the comparison for a while ... here's the DirecTV-10 & DirecTV-11 TLE history ...
> [snip]


It looks like they are doing it a bit differently this time. The highest appogee ever for D10 was about 37,000 km before they brought it back down to 35800, and they took D11 up quite a bit higher to about 41,000 km, where it still is now, so they have to come back down about 5,000 km this time as opposed to 1,000 km for D10.


----------



## Tiger62

Of course, no one here knows the timetable for D11, but D10 was "parked" in 41 days, and we're now in day 30 for D11. It's still moving eastward at 0.291 degrees per day, so one would think a burn to result in westward movement would be coming shortly. Lot's of other factors involved, of course, but *I'll* feel better when it's moving westward toward 99.2 rather than eastward toward 99.2!


----------



## Tigerman73

Tiger62 said:


> Of course, no one here knows the timetable for D11, but D10 was "parked" in 41 days, and we're now in day 30 for D11. It's still moving eastward at 0.291 degrees per day, so one would think a burn to result in westward movement would be coming shortly. Lot's of other factors involved, of course, but *I'll* feel better when it's moving westward toward 99.2 rather than eastward toward 99.2!


If D-11's word is still good, we should see that burn take place any time now. He was saying sometime around the 19th.


----------



## Interceptor

Sixto said:


> Thanks for the reminder ... been thinking of doing the comparison for a while ... here's the DirecTV-10 & DirecTV-11 TLE history ... D10 was not launched from the equator ...


Very good comparison. Thanks Sixto!


----------



## Sixto

The usual Friday FCC Satellite Filings: SAT-00515 and SAT-00516 today ... no new news for DirecTV.

Several updates for EchoStar, nothing for DirecTV today (4/18/2008)

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-903A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-281633A1.pdf

All EchoStar discussion elsewhere ...


----------



## bakers12

Tiger62 said:


> It's still moving eastward at 0.291 degrees per day


The revs per day of 1.00081641 is a little less than the 1.00271 needed for geostationary orbit, so D11 is drifting slightly West (on average) right now.


----------



## ziltomil

I hope to see directv-11 move up to 34000km by the next TLE


----------



## Tiger62

bakers12 said:


> The revs per day of 1.00081641 is a little less than the 1.00271 needed for geostationary orbit, so D11 is drifting slightly West (on average) right now.


My bad. I was using that 24 hour/day thingy!:lol: That little 3 min, 56 sec. thingy will get you every time.


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Sixto for both the comparison and the FCC filings information.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Are we there, yet?


----------



## curt8403

Ed Campbell said:


> Are we there, yet?


I would say almost


----------



## smiddy

Almost?! ARGH! I want it now.


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> Almost?! ARGH! I want it now.


so do my friends Ham Solo and Chewbroccoli


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 44 ... +268km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE44)
1 32729U 08013A   08110.23388316 -.00000341  00000-0  00000+0 0   448
2 32729 000.1543 270.6306 1181933 291.2829 029.6143 00.99951079   421

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-19-2008 05:36:47[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	42
Inclination		0.154
RA of A. Node		270.631
Eccentricity		0.1181933
Argument of Perigee	291.283
Revs per day		0.99951079
Period			24h 00m 42s (1440.70 min)
Semi-major axis		42 255 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]30 883 x 40 871 km[/B]
Element number / age	44 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) [B]30,883 x 40,871 km[/B] (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+12.4 hours, at 27.7 days)
TLE#40 (04-15-2008 21:36:00) 30,507 x 41,115 km (+12.8 hours, at 27.2 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## turey22

Sixto said:


> Thanks for the reminder ... been thinking of doing the comparison for a while ... here's the DirecTV-10 & DirecTV-11 TLE history ... D10 was not launched from the equator ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B][U]DirecTV-10 TLE History[/U][/B]
> TLE#1  (07-07-2007 04:52:16)    414 x 35 813 km (Original)
> TLE#3  (07-09-2007 04:25:36)  4 919 x 35 792 km (+2 days)
> TLE#5  (07-10-2007 04:52:59)  4 921 x 36 526 km (+3 days)
> TLE#6  (07-11-2007 07:12:00)  4 923 x 37 127 km (+4 days)
> TLE#11 (07-13-2007 01:32:30)  8 277 x 37 105 km (+6 days)
> TLE#16 (07-14-2007 09:52:02) 17 992 x 37 082 km (+7 days)
> TLE#17 (07-15-2007 03:07:59) 17 994 x 37 083 km (+8 days)
> TLE#21 (07-17-2007 11:41:20) 31 290 x 37 120 km (+10 days)
> TLE#22 (07-18-2007 19:30:00) 34 206 x 37 119 km (+11 days)
> TLE#23 (07-19-2007 09:14:17) 34 100 x 37 245 km (+12 days)
> TLE#26 (07-20-2007 12:51:48) 34 099 x 37 129 km (+13 days)
> TLE#27 (07-21-2007 03:43:32) 34 088 x 37 109 km (+14 days)
> TLE#29 (07-22-2007 06:15:49) 34 085 x 37 109 km (+15 days)
> TLE#30 (07-23-2007 03:16:52) 34 088 x 37 104 km (+16 days)
> TLE#33 (07-24-2007 16:48:49) 34 123 x 37 099 km (+17 days)
> TLE#34 (07-25-2007 08:07:20) 34 179 x 37 102 km (+18 days)
> TLE#35 (07-26-2007 05:03:51) 34 239 x 37 050 km (+19 days)
> TLE#37 (07-28-2007 04:11:40) 34 449 x 37 082 km (+21 days)
> TLE#39 (07-31-2007 00:01:26) 34 759 x 36 906 km (+24 days)
> TLE#40 (07-30-2007 22:34:52) 34 618 x 37 037 km (+23 days)
> TLE#44 (08-02-2007 05:22:11) 35 111 x 36 572 km (+26 days)
> TLE#45 (08-05-2007 04:20:00) 34 923 x 36 787 km (+29 days)
> TLE#46 (08-07-2007 13:08:45) 35 603 x 36 177 km (+31 days)
> TLE#47 (08-08-2007 15:48:09) 35 644 x 36 057 km (+32 days)
> TLE#49 (08-09-2007 02:59:19) 35 630 x 36 051 km (+33 days)
> TLE#51 (08-10-2007 10:48:47) 35 663 x 35 964 km (+34 days)
> TLE#52 (08-11-2007 08:00:09) 35 740 x 35 919 km (+35 days)
> TLE#53 (08-12-2007 07:47:17) 35 737 x 35 864 km (+36 days)
> TLE#54 (08-13-2007 10:37:41) 35 739 x 35 876 km (+37 days)
> TLE#55 (08-14-2007 06:59:19) 35 742 x 35 809 km (+38 days)
> TLE#56 (08-16-2007 11:30:10) 35 784 x 35 789 km (+40 days)
> TLE#57 (08-17-2007 10:21:06) 35 784 x 35 787 km (+41 days)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B][U]DirecTV-11 TLE History[/U][/B]
> TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+29.1 days)
> TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+28.2 days)
> TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+27.7 days)
> TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+26.6 days)
> TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+25.9 days)
> TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+24.9 days)
> TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.9 days)
> TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+22.9 days)
> TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+21.9 days)
> TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+20.9 days)
> TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.7 days)
> TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+18.9 days)
> TLE#25 (04-06-2008 13:20:15) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.8 days)
> TLE#24 (04-05-2008 16:35:47) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.0 days)
> TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+16.0 days)
> TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+13.4 days)
> TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+13.0 days)
> TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+12.1 days)
> TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+10.4 days)
> TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00)  7,388 x 40,988 km (+9.0 days)
> TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12)  7,392 x 40,992 km (+8.0 days)
> TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22)    468 x 40,744 km (+7.5 days)
> TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42)    468 x 40,742 km (+7.0 days)
> TLE# 7 (03-26-2008 14:24:00)    474 x 40,738 km (+6.9 days)
> TLE# 6 (03-25-2008 04:40:59)    463 x 38,996 km (+5.5 days)
> TLE# 5 (03-24-2008 16:48:00)    473 x 38,991 km (+5.0 days)
> TLE# 4 (03-24-2008 05:32:23)    463 x 36,484 km (+4.5 days)
> TLE# 3 (03-20-2008 13:54:34)    268 x 36,474 km (+.9 days)
> TLE# 2 (03-20-2008 04:58:00)    273 x 36,476 km (+.5 days)
> TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29)    243 x 36,067 km (Original)


This looks like jibberish to me. I have a headache now.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Thanks for the reminder ... been thinking of doing the comparison for a while


How about actually making it a comparison:

1. Forget about the date and time and used the elapsed time.
2. Make a graph or at least a side-by-side table with a representative state for each day since launch.

Just looking at the raw data, it would appear that D10 got down to the business of a properly radiused orbit much sooner (11 days for D10 versus 30+ days for D11).


----------



## Sixto

turey22 said:


> This looks like jibberish to me. I have a headache now.


Very simple.

The target is to get to a circular orbit, at the equator, at an altitude of 35,786km, which is referred to as a geostationary orbit.

At launch, the orbit is very non-circular (elliptical).

D10 was:


Code:


TLE#1  (07-07-2007 04:52:16)    414 x 35 813 km (Original)

D11 was:


Code:


TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29)    243 x 36,067 km (Original)

Gradually, the low point of the orbit (the "perigee") is raised, the high point of the orbit (the "apogee") is lowered, to eventually get to the proper geostationary orbit of 35,786 x 35,786km.

As you can see from the data presented, D10 was gradually maneuvered to the proper orbit in 41 days:


Code:


TLE#57 (08-17-2007 10:21:06) 35 784 x 35 787 km (+41 days)

Each line listed is the orbit on that day, with the low point and high point of the orbit shown.

Fairly clear to see that D11 is being positioned differently, and possibly over a longer period of time, some of which is due to D11's launch from the equator, and possibly also due to the fact that D11 is not needed as urgently as D10. A slower transition to 35,785km can save fuel, which may extend the lifespan of the satellite.

More details in post #2: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286

Should be fairly simple to understand, but please ask if the headache continues 



Code:


[B][U]DirecTV-10 TLE History[/U][/B]
TLE#1  (07-07-2007 04:52:16)    414 x 35 813 km (Original)
TLE#3  (07-09-2007 04:25:36)  4 919 x 35 792 km (+2 days)
TLE#5  (07-10-2007 04:52:59)  4 921 x 36 526 km (+3 days)
TLE#6  (07-11-2007 07:12:00)  4 923 x 37 127 km (+4 days)
TLE#11 (07-13-2007 01:32:30)  8 277 x 37 105 km (+6 days)
TLE#16 (07-14-2007 09:52:02) 17 992 x 37 082 km (+7 days)
TLE#17 (07-15-2007 03:07:59) 17 994 x 37 083 km (+8 days)
TLE#21 (07-17-2007 11:41:20) 31 290 x 37 120 km (+10 days)
TLE#22 (07-18-2007 19:30:00) 34 206 x 37 119 km (+11 days)
TLE#23 (07-19-2007 09:14:17) 34 100 x 37 245 km (+12 days)
TLE#26 (07-20-2007 12:51:48) 34 099 x 37 129 km (+13 days)
TLE#27 (07-21-2007 03:43:32) 34 088 x 37 109 km (+14 days)
TLE#29 (07-22-2007 06:15:49) 34 085 x 37 109 km (+15 days)
TLE#30 (07-23-2007 03:16:52) 34 088 x 37 104 km (+16 days)
TLE#33 (07-24-2007 16:48:49) 34 123 x 37 099 km (+17 days)
TLE#34 (07-25-2007 08:07:20) 34 179 x 37 102 km (+18 days)
TLE#35 (07-26-2007 05:03:51) 34 239 x 37 050 km (+19 days)
TLE#37 (07-28-2007 04:11:40) 34 449 x 37 082 km (+21 days)
TLE#39 (07-31-2007 00:01:26) 34 759 x 36 906 km (+24 days)
TLE#40 (07-30-2007 22:34:52) 34 618 x 37 037 km (+23 days)
TLE#44 (08-02-2007 05:22:11) 35 111 x 36 572 km (+26 days)
TLE#45 (08-05-2007 04:20:00) 34 923 x 36 787 km (+29 days)
TLE#46 (08-07-2007 13:08:45) 35 603 x 36 177 km (+31 days)
TLE#47 (08-08-2007 15:48:09) 35 644 x 36 057 km (+32 days)
TLE#49 (08-09-2007 02:59:19) 35 630 x 36 051 km (+33 days)
TLE#51 (08-10-2007 10:48:47) 35 663 x 35 964 km (+34 days)
TLE#52 (08-11-2007 08:00:09) 35 740 x 35 919 km (+35 days)
TLE#53 (08-12-2007 07:47:17) 35 737 x 35 864 km (+36 days)
TLE#54 (08-13-2007 10:37:41) 35 739 x 35 876 km (+37 days)
TLE#55 (08-14-2007 06:59:19) 35 742 x 35 809 km (+38 days)
TLE#56 (08-16-2007 11:30:10) 35 784 x 35 789 km (+40 days)
TLE#57 (08-17-2007 10:21:06) 35 784 x 35 787 km (+41 days)




Code:


[B][U]DirecTV-11 TLE History[/U][/B]
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+30.5 days)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+27.7 days)
TLE#39 (04-15-2008 08:47:18) 30,387 x 41,123 km (+26.6 days)
TLE#37 (04-14-2008 14:24:00) 30,244 x 41,132 km (+25.9 days)
TLE#36 (04-13-2008 14:01:40) 30,244 x 41,142 km (+24.9 days)
TLE#34 (04-12-2008 14:11:58) 30,007 x 41,174 km (+23.9 days)
TLE#33 (04-11-2008 14:29:18) 29,861 x 41,195 km (+22.9 days)
TLE#32 (04-10-2008 14:45:58) 29,864 x 41,198 km (+21.9 days)
TLE#31 (04-09-2008 15:06:01) 29,723 x 41,211 km (+20.9 days)
TLE#29 (04-08-2008 10:52:07) 29,622 x 41,228 km (+19.7 days)
TLE#27 (04-07-2008 15:50:51) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+18.9 days)
TLE#25 (04-06-2008 13:20:15) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.8 days)
TLE#24 (04-05-2008 16:35:47) 29,621 x 41,228 km (+17.0 days)
TLE#19 (04-04-2008 17:31:12) 25,710 x 41,156 km (+16.0 days)
TLE#18 (04-02-2008 02:24:00) 17,361 x 41,067 km (+13.4 days)
TLE#17 (04-01-2008 18:36:37) 17,362 x 41,064 km (+13.0 days)
TLE#15 (03-31-2008 20:24:00) 17,363 x 41,066 km (+12.1 days)
TLE#14 (03-30-2008 03:37:02)  7,387 x 40,988 km (+10.4 days)
TLE#12 (03-28-2008 16:48:00)  7,388 x 40,988 km (+9.0 days)
TLE#11 (03-27-2008 16:54:12)  7,392 x 40,992 km (+8.0 days)
TLE#10 (03-27-2008 04:40:22)    468 x 40,744 km (+7.5 days)
TLE# 9 (03-26-2008 16:26:42)    468 x 40,742 km (+7.0 days)
TLE# 7 (03-26-2008 14:24:00)    474 x 40,738 km (+6.9 days)
TLE# 6 (03-25-2008 04:40:59)    463 x 38,996 km (+5.5 days)
TLE# 5 (03-24-2008 16:48:00)    473 x 38,991 km (+5.0 days)
TLE# 4 (03-24-2008 05:32:23)    463 x 36,484 km (+4.5 days)
TLE# 3 (03-20-2008 13:54:34)    268 x 36,474 km (+.9 days)
TLE# 2 (03-20-2008 04:58:00)    273 x 36,476 km (+.5 days)
TLE# 1 (03-19-2008 17:30:29)    243 x 36,067 km (Original)


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> How about actually making it a comparison:
> 
> 1. Forget about the date and time and used the elapsed time.
> 2. Make a graph or at least a side-by-side table with a representative state for each day since launch.
> 
> Just looking at the raw data, it would appear that D10 got down to the business of a properly radiused orbit much sooner (11 days for D10 versus 30+ days for D11).


Sure. can do that ...


----------



## turey22

so, as soon as the sat get in to that position, 35,786 x 35,786km, it will go live. I get it now. I think my headache is gone. thank you


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> How about actually making it a comparison:
> 
> 1. Forget about the date and time and used the elapsed time.
> 2. Make a graph or at least a side-by-side table with a representative state for each day since launch.
> 
> Just looking at the raw data, it would appear that D10 got down to the business of a properly radiused orbit much sooner (11 days for D10 versus 30+ days for D11).


Here you go ... I also have to look at Spaceway-1 and DirecTV-7S which were also both SeaLaunch ... hadn't used Spaceway-1 previously because it had some other problems.

Enjoy ...


Code:


[B][U]Day[/U]	    [U]DirecTV-10[/U]    	    [U]DirecTV-11[/U][/B]
1	   414 x 35 813 km	   243 x 36,067 km
2 	 4 919 x 35 792 km	
3	 4 921 x 36 526 km	
4	 4 923 x 37 127 km	   463 x 36,484 km
6	 8 277 x 37 105 km	   463 x 38,996 km
7	17 992 x 37 082 km	   468 x 40,742 km
8	17 994 x 37 083 km	 7,392 x 40,992 km
10	31 290 x 37 120 km	 7,387 x 40,988 km
11	34 206 x 37 119 km	
12	34 100 x 37 245 km	17,363 x 41,066 km
13	34 099 x 37 129 km	17,362 x 41,064 km
14	34 088 x 37 109 km	
15	34 085 x 37 109 km	
16	34 088 x 37 104 km	29,456 x 41,232 km
17	34 123 x 37 099 km	29,621 x 41,228 km
18	34 179 x 37 102 km	29,621 x 41,228 km
19	34 239 x 37 050 km	29,622 x 41,228 km
21	34 449 x 37 082 km	29,723 x 41,211 km
24	34 759 x 36 906 km	30,007 x 41,174 km
26	35 111 x 36 572 km	30,345 x 41,133 km
29	34 923 x 36 787 km	30,615 x 41,065 km
31	35 603 x 36 177 km	30,883 x 40,871 km
32	35 644 x 36 057 km	
33	35 630 x 36 051 km	
34	35 663 x 35 964 km	
35	35 740 x 35 919 km	
36	35 737 x 35 864 km	
37	35 739 x 35 876 km	
38	35 742 x 35 809 km	
40	35 784 x 35 789 km	
41	35 784 x 35 787 km


----------



## Sixto

turey22 said:


> so, as soon as the sat get in to that position, 35,786 x 35,786km, it will go live. I get it now. I think my headache is gone. thank you


D11 needs to be at the 35,786km circular (geostationary) orbit, at the equator, at 99.225°, for there to be any opportunity for us to receive a signal.

While some testing is being done on it's way to the 99.225° location, it's not clear how much or how long testing will be necessary at 99.225° before we start seeing life from 99(s) or 99(c) from D11.

D10 got there at day-41 (8/17/2007), we all started seeing a signal on 9/12/2007, and it went live on 9/26/2007. But D10 was very different, because it was the first CONUS Ka satellite transmitting MPEG4 HD and was tested at a special test location, and then later moved to it's final location. We've not seen any indication of a special D11 test location.

D11 should be quicker once it gets to the proper orbit, but we need geostationary first, so no need to be checking for any signal until we see 35,786km.


----------



## smiddy

harsh said:


> How about actually making it a comparison:
> 
> 1. Forget about the date and time and used the elapsed time.
> 2. Make a graph or at least a side-by-side table with a representative state for each day since launch.
> 
> Just looking at the raw data, it would appear that D10 got down to the business of a properly radiused orbit much sooner (11 days for D10 versus 30+ days for D11).


I can't say I know much about the types of launches in a technical sense. But if I understand what you're saying here correctly there is a huge difference between the two. I was of the impresison that an equitorial launch was easier to do. I know that there is a lot more to this that we (ok, just me) don't particularly know, but based on what you say it seems like taking more time is harder...(maybe not).

Is there a difference in burn rates (fuel cost) etcetera that cost is substantially different between the two launches? Can anyone here actually answer that (I smell a smart-assed remark coming  )?

Perhaps I need a course in orbital dynamics...


----------



## smiddy

Sixto, have you calculated based on current rate of change when 35,786 km will be met for D11? (I could do it, but wodered if you've already done this) If so, what is the prediction when this will occur?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Sixto, have you calculated based on current rate of change when 35,786 km will be met for D11? (I could do it, but wodered if you've already done this) If so, what is the prediction when this will occur?


smiddy, good question. The unknown is whether they're going to let D11 drift into place slowly or do a burn (or several) to just knock it into place.

Just looked at DirecTV-7S (from SeaLaunch). It got to 35,000km after a week a so.

Spaceway-1 took months.

D11 taking a very different path.


----------



## bubbers44

Yesterdays west drift, 1.00271-.99951079 per day orbit indicates a 1.15 degree per day west drift making it 30 days to get back to 99.225 west longitude so seems like they will boost it higher to get there faster unless fuel burn is an issue.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> smiddy, good question. The unknown is whether they're going to let D11 drift into place slowly or do a burn (or several) to just knock it into place.
> 
> Just looked at DirecTV-7S (from SeaLaunch). It got to 35,000km after a week a so.
> 
> Spaceway-1 took months.
> 
> D11 taking a very different path.


So a simple prediction like what I ask may be fruitless considering the permutation of _what if_'s. 



bubbers44 said:


> Yesterdays west drift, 1.00271-.99951079 per day orbit indicates a 1.15 degree per day west drift making it 30 days to get back to 99.225 west longitude so seems like they will boost it higher to get there faster unless fuel burn is an issue.


Thanks, this is if everything stays the same on drift, right? How does the current orbit to the needed orbit change this drift?

I need to stop asking questions, I will be doing calculation next and then we'll all be in trouble.  :lol:

EDIT: Consdiering that DirecTV 11 posted we'd see something _soon_, I think 30 days might be too much, thoughts?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> So a simple prediction like what I ask may be fruitless considering the permutation of _what if_'s.


with no change, current simulation puts it to 99.225 on 5/10/2008 ... but many variables that could change ...


----------



## Herdfan

Sixto said:


> Just looked at DirecTV-7S (from SeaLaunch). It got to 35,000km after a week a so.


7S was operational within 30 days as D* was way behind E* on locals due to the delay. (I know this because I was waiting for my locals to go live.)


----------



## PoitNarf

I'm crossing my fingers that the original estimate of the 30th given to us by DirecTV-11 is accurate. Guess we'll see in 10 days.


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> I'm crossing my fingers that the original estimate of the 30th given to us by DirecTV-11 is accurate. Guess we'll see in 10 days.


That would be nice but just seems very unlikely at the moment.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> Yesterdays west drift, 1.00271-.99951079 per day orbit indicates a 1.15 degree per day west drift making it 30 days to get back to 99.225 west longitude so seems like they will boost it higher to get there faster unless fuel burn is an issue.


The apogee is already much higher than it needs to be. If they only raise the perigee to it's final altitude, the satellite will drift west fairly rapidly until they bring down the apogee... which for a number of weeks now has been quite a bit higher than what it's final altitude needs to be.


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> The apogee is already much higher than it needs to be. If they only raise the perigee to it's final altitude, the satellite will drift west fairly rapidly until they bring down the apogee... which for a number of weeks now has been quite a bit higher than what it's final altitude needs to be.


I guess thats at least part of the reason they can take their time moving from this specific orbit. I still wonder though, what is so special about this particular approx. 31,000 X 41,000 km orbit to spend this inordinate amount of time in it?


----------



## bubbers44

It is a free fuel ride back to 99.225 W. Then a retro burn with a few adjustments should put it in position.


----------



## bubbers44

Ask the experts how lowering the apogee will affect the orbit but my guess is they will kick the orbit up a bit knowing the final retro burn will take some of the energy out of the entire orbit.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> D10 was very different, because it was the first CONUS MPEG4 HD satellite


It was the first CONUS Ka satellite. A satellite isn't MPEG4 or MPEG2 or HD or SD.


----------



## steveken

Man, you people get way too picky on silly stuff.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Man, you people get way too picky on silly stuff.


The format of the data stream (MPEG2, MPEG4) doesn't matter nearly so much as a new transmission frequency band (Ka-lo v. Ka-hi). It required a brand new technology in the system (B Band Converters or SWM-capable receivers).


----------



## Malibu13

cartrivision said:


> The apogee is already much higher than it needs to be. If they only raise the perigee to it's final altitude, the satellite will drift west fairly rapidly until they bring down the apogee... which for a number of weeks now has been quite a bit higher than what it's final altitude needs to be.


I must admit that this has been one of the most interesting threads i have ever seen at DBSTalk and that we truly have some really smart members out there who are supplying very informative discussion....................

My confusion has grown from slight to massive in the last few weeks and my only thoughts now are.........................

Perigee, Apogee, Burn, "Whatever". 

*Just park to darn thing and fire it up *:lol: :ramblinon :biggrin:


----------



## steveken

LameLefty said:


> The format of the data stream (MPEG2, MPEG4) doesn't matter nearly so much as a new transmission frequency band (Ka-lo v. Ka-hi). It required a brand new technology in the system (B Band Converters or SWM-capable receivers).


yeah, but that had nothing to do with why Sixto said "D10 was very different, because it was the first CONUS MPEG4 HD satellite" I believe.

So, with that said, my statement about Jeremy W. getting so particular about correcting Sixto about what he was saying was slightly uncalled for and very nit picky.

I just don't think its really necessary for people to post a response telling someone else that "no, the fart didn't smell like a rose, it smelled like a petunia" is entirely necessary. Leave it alone unless they are WAY WAY off base in describing a units functionality or technology. Just because they used the wrong term doesn't make the statement any less relevant.


----------



## grump

steveken said:


> I just don't think its really necessary for people to post a response telling someone else that "no, the fart didn't smell like a rose, it smelled like a petunia" is entirely necessary. Leave it alone unless they are WAY WAY off base in describing a units functionality or technology. Just because they used the wrong term doesn't make the statement any less relevant.


To engineers, details matter in a way that both frustrates and annoys the general public. It's those same details, however, that let them, oh, I don't know, park a satellite at a precise position in space from 35,000km away.

So, for the purposes of this thread, I think Jeremy was being informative and adding to the shared knowledge that many of us have gleaned from it.


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> I just don't think its really necessary for people to post a response telling someone else that "no, the fart didn't smell like a rose, it smelled like a petunia" is entirely necessary.


What isn't necessary is for you to continue on this diatribe of yours. I wasn't a jerk about it, I was simply correcting a factual error in a thread that is all about facts. Get off it.


----------



## Sixto

steveken said:


> yeah, but that had nothing to do with why Sixto said "D10 was very different, because it was the first CONUS MPEG4 HD satellite" I believe ...


Thanks for the comment.

I did go back and update the post to be more accurate ...

But I actually did mean exactly what I said ...

But to be more literal ... D10 was the first DirectTV CONUS satellite to transmit HD channels in the MPEG4 format via the Ka band (which is what I just added).

Actually, most of the delay didn't appear to be due to Ka at all, it appeared that there was some time needed to properly tune the new MPEG4 data stream and there was some delay getting the receivers properly authorized for the new national HD channels.

We shouldn't have any of those problems with D11.


----------



## lwilli201

Two questions.

Where is the D11 up-link facility?

Is it ready to start up-linking programming?


----------



## Sixto

lwilli201 said:


> Two questions.
> 
> Where is the D11 up-link facility?
> 
> Is it ready to start up-linking programming?


According to the original D11 filing:

"The satellite will receive communications signals from the DIRECTV broadcast centers in Castle Rock, CO and Los Angeles, CA and from four other strategically placed uplink sites across the U.S."​
Page 16 of the following: http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-73809

The document also includes many more details.

Hopefully, they're ready since D11 was originally scheduled for mid-2007, then late-2007, then January 2008, then March. All due to launch delays, so hopefully plenty of time to get ready to up link.


----------



## Tom Robertson

lwilli201 said:


> Two questions.
> 
> Where is the D11 up-link facility?
> 
> Is it ready to start up-linking programming?


CONUS will be from the facilities in LA and Castle Rock, CO.

The FCC recently granted temporary permits to DIRECTV for new 9.2m dishes to communicate with DIRECTV-11, so I presume DIRECTV is pretty close to being ready on both fronts.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Sixto said:


> Thanks for the comment.
> 
> I did go back and update the post to be more accurate ...
> 
> But I actually did mean exactly what I said ...
> 
> But to be more literal ... D10 was the first DirectTV CONUS satellite to transmit HD channels in the MPEG4 format via the Ka band (which is what I just added).
> 
> Actually, most of the delay didn't appear to be due to Ka at all, it appeared that there was some time needed to properly tune the new MPEG4 data stream and there was some delay getting the receivers properly authorized for the new national HD channels.
> 
> We shouldn't have any of those problems with D11.


I would be interested to hear from Directv what was the reason for it taking so long, because I personally think it was not for the reason you said exclusively. Directv has been showing MPEG-4 in spots all over the country for a while, so I can't see anything in MPEG-4 being a problem just because of that, including any kind of authorizing of a MPEG-4 program. I believe that it had to be the combination of the new frequency and MPEG-4 or how it was fitting in to the stack plan, they've already dealt with any issues caused just by MPEG-4. I think that D10's delay was mostly caused to the spots not being correctly aligned, and they were trying to see what they could do with them and make arrangements based on where those spots would hit... After that, I wonder if they were having UPLINK issues, and maybe that also caused some delay...


----------



## Sixto

inkahauts said:


> I would be interested to hear from Directv what was the reason for it taking so long, because I personally think it was not for the reason you said exclusively. Directv has been showing MPEG-4 in spots all over the country for a while, so I can't see anything in MPEG-4 being a problem just because of that, including any kind of authorizing of a MPEG-4 program. I believe that it had to be the combination of the new frequency and MPEG-4 or how it was fitting in to the stack plan, they've already dealt with any issues caused just by MPEG-4. I think that D10's delay was mostly caused to the spots not being correctly aligned, and they were trying to see what they could do with them and make arrangements based on where those spots would hit... After that, I wonder if they were having UPLINK issues, and maybe that also caused some delay...


There were several factors including the problem with the D10 spot beams.

I was referring to the national HD channels. There was reference made back in August/September to the balancing that was going on to properly "tune" the new environment. Everything was up in engineering mode and tested. The one-week delay at the end was referenced as an "authorization" problem.

It all eventually made no difference, because we're enjoying great HD today, a few extra days no biggie in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## inkahauts

ah, that makes more sense.... Since this is a twin to D10, I too agree with you that we shouldn't have any of those problems...


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> It is a free fuel ride back to 99.225 W. Then a retro burn with a few adjustments should put it in position.


They still have *two* fairly significant positioning maneuvers to make... raising the perigee to the proper altitude and lowering the apogee to the proper altitude, unless they continue to do both those adjustments a tiny bit every few days like they have been doing for the last week or so.


----------



## turbrodude

PoitNarf said:


> I'm crossing my fingers that the original estimate of the 30th given to us by DirecTV-11 is accurate. Guess we'll see in 10 days.


Yah, but he said it would be parked in about 10 days and he said that on the 9th. So he wasn't quite right in his prediction. Oh, and its "DirecTV12" who's been doing all the predictions lately. Who IS that guy???
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1544645&postcount=1243


----------



## Paul A

Space station astronauts land off-target, but safely

Smoke rises where the Soyuz capsule, carrying South Korea's first astronaut, Yi So-yeon, astronaut Peggy Whitson, cosmonaut Yury Malenchenko, landed in northern Kazakhstan. The capsule landed 295 miles off course, but safely.

The International Space Station's (ISS) first female commander and two crewmates are safely back on Earth, but landed well short of their intended landing site as they capped a marathon mission to the orbiting laboratory.

The Russian Soyuz TMA-11 spacecraft ferrying Expedition 16 commander Peggy Whitson, of NASA, and her crew to Earth touched down about 295 miles short of its target zone on the central Asian steppes of Kazakhstan.

"The crew is alive and well. The landing was *nominal*, but by a backup design," said Anatoly Perminov, chief of Russia's Federal Space Agency, after the 4:30 a.m. ET landing on Saturday. "It was a ballistic descent and all the cosmonauts are feeling fine."


----------



## Jeremy W

Paul A said:


> Space station astronauts land off-target, but safely


The fact that the article used the word "nominal" doesn't mean it's on-topic for this thread.


----------



## Paul A

Jeremy W said:


> The fact that the article used the word "nominal" doesn't mean it's on-topic for this thread.


Sorry for the un-nominal post...

:backtotop


----------



## smiddy

Paul A said:


> Sorry for the un-nominal post...
> 
> :backtotop


I thought it was meant to be Fun-Nominal [say it quickly]. :lol:


----------



## Paul A

smiddy said:


> I thought it was meant to be Fun-Nominal [say it quickly]. :lol:


Smiddy, now that's funny! :lol:

Jeremy, congrats on you 6666th post !Devil_lol


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Now really :backtotop .

What is the latest best estimate of when D11 is parked in its final location, so that they can begin ground to sat cycle testing?

I know with all the fine experts here, somone must have a pretty good idea.


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What is the latest best estimate of when D11 is parked in its final location, so that they can begin ground to sat cycle testing?
> 
> I know with all the fine experts here, somone must have a pretty good idea.


Post 1531 from yesterday, with my assumption that they don't do cycle testing untill it's parked. (Someone will correct me if that assumption is wrong, I am certain.)



Sixto said:


> with no change, current simulation puts it to 99.225 on 5/10/2008 ... but many variables that could change ...


----------



## tj177mmi

I had a tech here on Saturday, and installed a slimline dish, and removed one of my single lnb dishes, but left the other for our locals (we don't have HD locals yet). He said that we wouldn't need that single lnb dish after June because they're going to HD. So, it sounds like it could be lit up in June, as I believe all HD locals have been put on hold.


----------



## grump

tj177mmi said:


> I had a tech here on Saturday, and installed a slimline dish, and removed one of my single lnb dishes, but left the other for our locals (we don't have HD locals yet). He said that we wouldn't need that single lnb dish after June because they're going to HD. So, it sounds like it could be lit up in June, as I believe all HD locals have been put on hold.


I have a hard time believing that a random install tech has more inside knowledge than the posters of this thread. Sounds more like a rumor than anything. :nono2:

Directv11's posts can't even be counted on anymore for reliable information, after all.


----------



## doctor j

Code:


DIRECTV 11_45
1 32729U 08013A   08112.11145014 -.00000330  00000-0  00000+0 0   452
2 32729 000.1315 275.9351 1125274 285.8478 345.5649 00.99977703   446




Code:


Name	DIRECTV 11_45
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-04-21 02:40:29
Orbit # at Epoch	44
Inclination	0.132
RA of A. Node	275.935
Eccentricity	0.1125274
Argument of Perigee	285.848
Revs per day	0.99977703
Period	24h 00m 19s (1440.32 min)
Semi-major axis	42 247 km
Perigee x Apogee	31 115 x 40 623 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	345.565
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	45 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

Again not much change

Doctor j


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 11_45
> 1 32729U 08013A   08112.11145014 -.00000330  00000-0  00000+0 0   452
> 2 32729 000.1315 275.9351 1125274 285.8478 345.5649 00.99977703   446


yep, +232km ...


Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) [B]31 115 x 40 623 km[/B] (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days)
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)
TLE#42 (04-16-2008 09:58:47) 30,531 x 41,110 km (+12.4 hours, at 27.7 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## Sixto

Drew2k said:


> Post 1531 from yesterday, with my assumption that they don't do cycle testing untill it's parked. (Someone will correct me if that assumption is wrong, I am certain.)


With today's TLE# 45, simulation know 5/13/2008 ... there must be some other circumstance or location they're waiting/planning for ...


----------



## Supervolcano

grump said:


> Directv11's posts can't even be counted on anymore for reliable information, after all.


I don't know if I'd go THAT far.

Who knows, could them originally taking the perigee up to 42,000 possibly have been an unexpected mistake and now they are slowly trying to correct it ... slowly being the keyword so they don't accidentally throw it too far into outer space and lose it completely?


----------



## Ken984

Another TLE
1 32729U 08013A 08112.88174959 -.00000325 00000-0 10000-3 0 466
2 32729 000.1496 267.8476 1077373 294.0366 262.6971 01.00010430 454
closer and closer we creep


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> Another TLE
> 1 32729U 08013A 08112.88174959 -.00000325 00000-0 10000-3 0 466
> 2 32729 000.1496 267.8476 1077373 294.0366 262.6971 01.00010430 454
> closer and closer we creep


yep, plus another 194km


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE46)
1 32729U 08013A   08112.88174959 -.00000325  00000-0  10000-3 0   466
2 32729 000.1496 267.8476 1077373 294.0366 262.6971 01.00010430   454

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-21-2008 21:09:43[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	45
Inclination		0.150
RA of A. Node		267.848
Eccentricity		0.1077373
Argument of Perigee	294.037
Revs per day		1.00010430
Period			23h 59m 50s (1439.83 min)
Semi-major axis		42 238 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 309 x 40 411 km[/B]
Element number / age	46 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) [B]31,309 x 40,411 km[/B] (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days)
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) 31,115 x 40,623 km (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days)
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)
TLE#41 (04-16-2008 21:36:00) 30,594 x 41,101 km (+11.6 hours, at 28.2 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history and pictorial view ...


----------



## rotomike

tj177mmi said:


> I had a tech here on Saturday, and installed a slimline dish, and removed one of my single lnb dishes, but left the other for our locals (we don't have HD locals yet). He said that we wouldn't need that single lnb dish after June because they're going to HD. So, it sounds like it could be lit up in June, as I believe all HD locals have been put on hold.


What market are you in? Portland has HD and Boston has it.
WE just got locals in Bangor from another bird so maybe you will get it but from another satellite.

Mike


----------



## Tom_S

Yep looks like they are splitting the difference with each TLE. + 200 peri -200 Apo. Slow and steady.


----------



## tj177mmi

rotomike said:


> What market are you in? Portland has HD and Boston has it.
> WE just got locals in Bangor from another bird so maybe you will get it but from another satellite.
> 
> Mike


Burlington VT Market. I'm up here in Northern NH, right on the boarder of VT.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom_S said:


> Yep looks like they are splitting the difference with each TLE. + 200 peri -200 Apo. Slow and steady.


Yeah, but at this rate, it will take a month to get perigee and apogee to their target altitudes.


----------



## Tom_S

cartrivision said:


> Yeah, but at this rate, it will take a month to get perigee and apogee to their target altitudes.


Maybe they filled there tank with Premium Gas before liftoff. You know how expensive that is. Going for MPG baby! :lol:


----------



## grump

Tom_S said:


> Maybe they filled there tank with Premium Gas before liftoff. You know how expensive that is. Going for MPG baby! :lol:


I believe they're using hydrazine, which at over $500 per gallon* makes Premium look like a bargain.

(* most recent price I could find was from 2001 http://www-pao.ksc.nasa.gov/kscpao/nasafact/pdf/SSP.pdf)


----------



## DCappy

Took TLE numbers from (Sixto) Post #2 and put them in my Excel spreadsheet. The following is a few observations.

At TLE#10 the Pe(Perige) was 468km and Ap(Apogee) was 40,744.

At TLE#11 they kicked the Pe 6,924km and Ap 248km - 7,392km x 40,992km. Then they let it obit thru TLEs 12,13,14.

Next bump at TLE#15 they kicked the Pe 9,976km and Ap 78km - 17,363km x 41,066km. Then let it orbit thru 16,17,18.

Then it got a little wild. This is where TLE#21 came out before 19 and 20.
TLE#19 Pe up 8,349km and Ap 89km.
TLE#20 Pe up 4,497km and Ap 207km.
TLE#21 Pe down 751km and Ap down 131km.
TLE#22 Pe up 168km and Ap down 5km.

At this point I think that they went back to the drawing board, because TLES#23,24,25,26,27,28,29 & 30 are all about the same(just let it orbit).
I think they tired to take to big a bump (two in a row) and were losing control.

At TLE#31 they started bumping up the Pe and lowering the Ap.
TLE#31 Pe +100km x Ap -15km
32 +141 -13
33 -3 -3
34 +146 -21
35 +238 -23
36 -1 -9
37 0 -10
38 +101 +1
39 +42 -10
40 +120 -8
41 +24 -5
42 +63 -9
43 +21 -36
44 +268 -194
45 +232 -248
46 +194 -212

Looks to me that on TLEs 33,36,37,39,41&43 they let it orbit and "Settle down".
New plan of slow and easy is working, although on the last three TLEs they're kicking it up.

If you go to TLE#20 and add the Pe and the Ap together and divde it by 2 you get 35,785km. Pe is 5,579km to low and Ap is 5,577km to high.

Just playing with numbers and waiting.


----------



## bigref

Does anyone REALLY believe that whoever is parking this bird made a MISTAKE? Come on now, its all calculated out when and where to move. We are getting a small snapshot of what is really going on. I am sure Lefty would agree with this.
If you still believe they have made mistakes or miscalculations parking this bird, pleas contact me ASAP. I have some wonderful ocean-front land to sell you in AZ!:icon_lol:


----------



## P Smith

You shouldn't underestimate complicity of orbital objects, sometime there is unexpected problem, like nozzle positioning error, etc.
So, errors happening ...


----------



## bigref

P Smith said:


> You shouldn't underestimate complicity of orbital objects, sometime there is unexpected problem, like nozzle positioning error, etc.
> So, errors happening ...


Errors MAY happen, but that is very, very rare, still have that property for sale


----------



## timmac

Yea, it would be impossible for them to make a mistake. I mean when has the last satellite launch ever gone wrong? Inconceivable.


----------



## dms1

bigref said:


> Does anyone REALLY believe that whoever is parking this bird made a MISTAKE? Come on now, its all calculated out when and where to move. We are getting a small snapshot of what is really going on. I am sure Lefty would agree with this.
> If you still believe they have made mistakes or miscalculations parking this bird, pleas contact me ASAP. I have some wonderful ocean-front land to sell you in AZ!:icon_lol:


I'm pretty certain they haven't made any mistakes. I'm sure the apogee was raised above the GSO level to provide the oscillating motion as viewed from the Earth which will most likely allow them to park the satellite at the correct location more quickly than other methods. People have to remember that we don't know what systems testing has been performed during the maneuvering, so what appears to be lengthy delays of inactivity may be anything but.


----------



## DCappy

bigref said:


> Does anyone REALLY believe that whoever is parking this bird made a MISTAKE? Come on now, its all calculated out when and where to move. We are getting a small snapshot of what is really going on. I am sure Lefty would agree with this.
> If you still believe they have made mistakes or miscalculations parking this bird, pleas contact me ASAP. I have some wonderful ocean-front land to sell you in AZ!:icon_lol:


Refer: Echostar's AMC-14


----------



## dms1

DCappy said:


> Refer: Echostar's AMC-14


That was a mechanical failure (a ruptured gas line I believe) - not an operating mistake.


----------



## DCappy

dms1 said:


> I'm pretty certain they haven't made any mistakes. I'm sure the apogee was raised above the GSO level to provide the oscillating motion as viewed from the Earth which will most likely allow them to park the satellite at the correct location more quickly than other methods. People have to remember that we don't know what systems testing has been performed during the maneuvering, so what appears to be lengthy delays of inactivity may be anything but.


dms1, I agree. Just noting the erractic behavior of TLEs 19,20,21&22. There could be a lot of reasons for this.


----------



## bigref

DCappy said:


> Refer: Echostar's AMC-14


A failure of a component is different then a mistake


----------



## man_rob

DCappy said:


> dms1, I agree. Just noting the erractic behavior of TLEs 19,20,21&22. There could be a lot of reasons for this.


My guess would be they are taking the easy does it approach. I would imagine that part of the sky is a bit crowded, and smacking D11 into another satellite wouldn't look good on one's resume.


----------



## Tom_S

man_rob said:


> My guess would be they are taking the easy does it approach. I would imagine that part of the sky is a bit crowded, and smacking D11 into another satellite wouldn't look good on one's resume.


With time on their side I think fuel savings are the main push here. There is simply no rush to get this bird into position. D10 is doing a great job so they can afford to be cautious.


----------



## cartrivision

bigref said:


> Does anyone REALLY believe that whoever is parking this bird made a MISTAKE? Come on now, its all calculated out when and where to move. We are getting a small snapshot of what is really going on. I am sure Lefty would agree with this.
> If you still believe they have made mistakes or miscalculations parking this bird, pleas contact me ASAP. I have some wonderful ocean-front land to sell you in AZ!:icon_lol:


Despite your wonderful assumptions that the engineers in charge of the positioning of the satellite are perfect, I can assure you that mistakes can be and have been made in the past. Back when I was a Hughes employee, I remember an instance when a positioning burn was done on one of their satellites using an incorrect parameter that essentially ended the useful life of the satellite.

I'm not saying that a mistake was made with D11, but I'm not absolutely convinced that a mistake wasn't made either. Unlike what was done when positioning D10, the apogee of D11 was initially raised significantly past it's final target altitude (by about 5000 km). Maybe someone here can theorize why they did that and why it was intentional and not a mistake. Why did they go significantly past the target apogee and create a situation where the altitude is almost 15% too high, so that they have to come back down by 15 percent to be at the correct altitude. Why the seemingly wasteful overshoot? Maybe in the grand scheme of things it was ultimately more efficient to do it that way, but maybe not. As I said, they didn't do it that way with D10, but lots of things were different with D10, including the fact that it wasn't an equatorial launch.


----------



## LameLefty

It's very unlikely there has been a "mistake" in terms of accidentally putting the satellite into a significantly incorrect orbit. That is quite a different concept from simple inaccuracy in measuring an existing orbit to plan for the next change, or in calibrating spacecraft mass precisely enough to make a burn come out EXACTLY as planned. For that matter, even the thrust provided by the motor(s) is an estimate, based on ground testing and that can vary a bit in actual operation depending on many factors (I'm not going to go into rocket motor design on this thread!).

All of these factors point to many slow and steady, SMALL changes to orbits, especially when you're looking at a few weeks to do it carefully and ensure 15 years of operation versus rushing things, making a few big but possibly imprecise burns and then spending a year's worth of station-keeping fuel to try to fix the situation.

And remember the important thing about TLEs: each is a snapshot in time. The spacecraft could have just maneuvered, could be just about to maneuver, could have been measured (and the orbit calculated) WHILE maneuvering, etc. They are not a gospel proof as to where things stand at any time except for the exact epoch date in the elset. Thank goodness satellite operators realize this, too.


----------



## bigref

LameLefty said:


> It's very unlikely there has been a "mistake" in terms of accidentally putting the satellite into a significantly incorrect orbit. That is quite a different concept from simple inaccuracy in measuring an existing orbit to plan for the next change, or in calibrating spacecraft mass precisely enough to make a burn come out EXACTLY as planned. For that matter, even the thrust provided by the motor(s) is an estimate, based on ground testing and that can vary a bit in actual operation depending on many factors (I'm not going to go into rocket motor design on this thread!).
> 
> All of these factors point to many slow and steady, SMALL changes to orbits, especially when you're looking at a few weeks to do it carefully and ensure 15 years of operation versus rushing things, making a few big but possibly imprecise burns and then spending a year's worth of station-keeping fuel to try to fix the situation.
> 
> And remember the important thing about TLEs: each is a snapshot in time. The spacecraft could have just maneuvered, could be just about to maneuver, could have been measured (and the orbit calculated) WHILE maneuvering, etc. They are not a gospel proof as to where things stand at any time except for the exact epoch date in the elset. Thank goodness satellite operators realize this, too.


Thank you Lefty, if anyone could explain it, it was you


----------



## LameLefty

> Maybe someone here can theorize why they did that and why it was intentional and not a mistake. Why did they go significantly past the target apogee and create a situation where the altitude is almost 15% too high, so that they have to come back down by 15 percent to be at the correct altitude. Why the seemingly wasteful overshoot? Maybe in the grand scheme of things it was ultimately more efficient to do it that way, but maybe not.


Unless you have a commercial app like STK (Satellite Toolkit) or whatever the industry standard-du-jour may be, and a precise data set for the spacecraft (exact mass, ISP of the apogee motor, etc) you can't really figure this stuff out, especially since we're not privy to the internal working schedules of the planners. We know the launch date and that the public timeframe for new HD content is "September." There's a LOT in there we don't know. It's all guess-work.

I STRONGLY suspect the high apogee is to allow systems testing in a defined region of space outside the normal GSO region as the Earth rotates beneath the satellite. But it's all just guesswork on our part.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> It's very unlikely there has been a "mistake" in terms of accidentally putting the satellite into a significantly incorrect orbit. That is quite a different concept from simple inaccuracy in measuring an existing orbit to plan for the next change, or in calibrating spacecraft mass precisely enough to make a burn come out EXACTLY as planned. For that matter, even the thrust provided by the motor(s) is an estimate, based on ground testing and that can vary a bit in actual operation depending on many factors (I'm not going to go into rocket motor design on this thread!).
> 
> All of these factors point to many slow and steady, SMALL changes to orbits, especially when you're looking at a few weeks to do it carefully and ensure 15 years of operation versus rushing things, making a few big but possibly imprecise burns and then spending a year's worth of station-keeping fuel to try to fix the situation.


I agree that the likelihood of a mistake (beyond a small inaccuracy in a maneuver) is not very high, but there was nothing "slow and steady" about the initial apogee altitude increase that left D12 15% higher that it's final target altitude. That happened in less than one day.... probably with a single burn maneuver.


----------



## JLucPicard

P Smith said:


> You shouldn't underestimate *complicity* of orbital objects, <snip> ...


Oh, oh. Are we back on the "D10 had something to do with AMC-14" conspiracy again???


----------



## LameLefty

> I agree that the likelihood of a mistake (beyond a small inaccuracy in a maneuver) is not very high, but there was nothing "slow and steady" about the initial apogee altitude increase that left D12 15% higher that it's final target altitude. That happened in less than one day.... probably with a single burn maneuver.


Which indicates it was done deliberately. It's hard to "accidentally" burn a low-thrust motor for such an excessive time without someone noticing and putting a stop to it.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> Which indicates it was done deliberately. It's hard to "accidentally" burn a low-thrust motor for such an excessive time without someone noticing and putting a stop to it.


We don't know how hard it is to do or how easy it would be to detect and stop mid-burn. As I said before, I know of a case when an incorrect maneuvering burn was done on a Hughes owned satellite and not caught before the satellite was placed in a useless orbit that wasn't recoverable with the remaining fuel on board. Significant maneuvering mistakes have happened.

I'm not saying that has probably happened with D11. I'm just not ruling it out.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> We don't know how hard it is to do or how easy it would be to detect and stop mid-burn.


Actually, in a general sense, I do, as I am a former spacecraft design engineer. It CAN happen, but it's not likely. I would also tend to think that the kinds of error that tend to happen in spacecraft control tend to occur in ways that don't pertain to making maneuvers excessively large in magnitude, but excessively small instead (pointing errors giving rise to incorrect vectors and thus too small a velocity change). Really big accidental changes might be the result of stuck valves or a software error like lack of robust "sanity checking" in control routines failing to catch a command that makes no sense and executing it anyway. If this hypothesized "accident" occurred as a result of a hardware failure in propulsion for instance, the change would probably be bigger than we're seeing (i.e., the result of a stuck valve resulting in burn to propellant depletion) and the "correction" would take months of teeny-tiny XIPS thruster operation to correct. If the hypothesized mistake occurred in software, then someone was completely asleep at the switch when they failed to note a burn occurring for far longer than expected (don't think for a second sat operators aren't watching real-time telemetry during burns, including acceleration and position data).



> As I said before, I know of a case when an incorrect maneuvering burn was done on a Hughes owned satellite and not caught before the satellite was placed in a useless orbit that wasn't recoverable with the remaining fuel on board. Significant maneuvering mistakes have happened.


I don't have first-hand knowledge of that incident but I know accidents CAN happen. In space operations, the accidents that happen tend to either be minor and easily recoverable (because of, for instance, the use of very small maneuvers when possible, and the use of redundant systems and command paths), or catastrophic (loss of AMC-14, loss of Challenger and Columbia, etc.). NEAR-catastrophic accidents in space, those that don't result in loss of mission or loss of crew, are pretty rare. (*)



> I'm not saying that has probably happened with D11. I'm just not ruling it out.


You're speculating, what a psychologist might call "catastrophizing". :lol: It's up, it's maneuvering (as shown by the various TLEs) and that's all we know.

(*)Though the Russians have had a spate of unbelievable luck by having several very serious incidents with no deaths, such as the recent and past ballistic Soyuz re-entries and the Progress/Mir collision some years back; their sats and boosters tend to fail in the same catastrophic ways, however.


----------



## steveken

Hey, I got a quick, slightly off topic question to ask of you, Herb. If you don't mind that is. Or if anyone else can answer.

I have always wondered some things. What kind of propellant is put on these spacecraft for the orbital maneuvering? How much weight does all this propellant add to the craft? And how expensive is this propellant? What is the usual capacity of the tanks to hold the propellant?

Also, instead of having all this propellant on-board, how effective would it be to have maybe some other compressed gas on-board for any maneuvering that might need to be done with the craft? For instance, couldn't they just put on a light weight, maybe slow filling apparatus that could create the compressed gas on the craft that could be powered by the solar panels on the craft? And what kind of gas could be captured/generated in space to use as a propellant for the craft? If this is not possible, why? Is there any way to explain this?

I just wonder this stuff whenever the shuttle goes up or any spacecraft that has "limited propellant" for its lifetime of service. I mean, if they could use something like a gas that could be regenerated and used for propellant while in space, wouldn't that extend the life span of the craft?


----------



## syphix

Here's all I've seen, based on this forum:

a) D11 is successfully launched.

b) DirecTV announces a "go live" date of Sept. '08.

c) DIRECTV-11 (supposedly somebody inside DirecTV..) said that "he/she" expects to start broadcasting MUCH sooner than Sept. '08 (April 30th? May'ish?).

d) DBSTalk members take this as gospel and get anxious when the satellite hasn't parked yet (perhaps forgetting DirecTV's Sept. '08 announcement).

Do I have it pretty accurate so far?

Calm down...we'll get there.

SOON.*


*Definition of "soon" left up to interpretation.


----------



## bobnielsen

I suspect that hydrazine (N2H4) is used as the propellant. It is used in conjunction with a catalyst and is very efficient in terms of thrust/volume.


----------



## curt8403

bobnielsen said:


> I suspect that hydrazine (N2H4) is used as the propellant. It is used in conjunction with a catalyst and is very efficient in terms of thrust/volume.


yes Boeing says Monomethy Hydrazine


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> You're speculating, what a psychologist might call "catastrophizing". :lol: It's up, it's maneuvering (as shown by the various TLEs) and that's all we know.


I'm not doing that at all. In fact all indications are that D11 will reach the correct geostationary orbit shortly. I'm just pointing out the reality that significant maneuvering mistakes can happen and have happened in the past with other satellites.


----------



## moonman

Re: thrusters...I have no idea what this info from Boeing means...perhaps
Lefty can explain?
============
PROPULSION Liquid apogee engine 100lbf (445N) 
Stationkeeping Thrusters - XIPS 4x25 cm
0.018 lb (79mN) (low power)
0.038 lb (165mN) (high power) 
Bi-Prop Axia
Bi Prop E-W 4 5lb (22N) 
4 2lb (10N)


----------



## PoitNarf

curt8403 said:


> yes Boeing says Monomethy Hydrazine


Ah, isn't that the hazardous material the DoD was worried that people might be exposed to with that malfunctioning satellite a few weeks back and as a result the Navy had to shoot it down?


----------



## curt8403

PoitNarf said:


> Ah, isn't that the hazardous material the DoD was worried that people might be exposed to with that malfunctioning satellite a few weeks back and as a result the Navy had to shoot it down?


yes indeed it is


----------



## timmac

So what significance was there in an equator launch if your going to take longer to park? It doesn't seem like a better thing at this point. Oh ya, fuel savings. I get it. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't have been so much talk waiting for this thing to park. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't be anticipation, someone would have calmed the storm. Oh, ok. Someone did they said we won't be receiving anything until Sept 08. See everyone then.:nono2:


----------



## curt8403

timmac said:


> So what significance was there in an equator launch if your going to take longer to park? It doesn't seem like a better thing at this point. Oh ya, fuel savings. I get it. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't have been so much talk waiting for this thing to park. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't be anticipation, someone would have calmed the storm. Oh, ok. Someone did they said we won't be receiving anything until Sept 08. See everyone then.:nono2:


much less fuel used to park, meaning more years in service????


----------



## Carl Spock

timmac said:


> So what significance was there in an equator launch if your going to take longer to park? It doesn't seem like a better thing at this point. Oh ya, fuel savings. I get it. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't have been so much talk waiting for this thing to park. If someone inside knew anything there wouldn't be anticipation, someone would have calmed the storm. Oh, ok. Someone did they said we won't be receiving anything until Sept 08. See everyone then.:nono2:


:eek2:

Sometimes I think life was better 50 years ago, when the consumer had no idea how a TV worked, nor did they care. As long as Ed Sullivan, Bonanza and Jackie Gleason were on Sunday nights, that was all that mattered.


----------



## steveken

Well, its good to know what they use for propellant. Now, if someone can address the second part of my question, that would be cool. I just think there has to be something better, more long term oriented than a liquid propellant.


----------



## loudo

Carl Spock said:


> :eek2:
> 
> Sometimes I think life was better 50 years ago, when the consumer had no idea how a TV worked, nor did they care. As long as Ed Sullivan, Bonanza and Jackie Gleason were on Sunday nights, that was all that mattered.


But wait, wasn't Jackie Gleason on Saturday nights????


----------



## curt8403

loudo said:


> But wait, wasn't Jackie Gleason on Saturday nights????


both, the jackie Gleason show, and The Honeymooners


----------



## LameLefty

You guys pretty much have the questions covered. Yep, hydrazine is generally used. It has a decent ISP (specific impulse, a measure of efficiency) and good thrust, and is relatively dense. That means you can pack enough of it into a small space and still have enough energy to get you where you need to go relatively quickly. By contrast, XIPS is xenon-ion propulsion, a solar-electric method of streaming ions at very high speed. This is VERY efficient (usually by a factor of 3 - 5 times higher ISP, maybe more), but VERY low thrust. So it takes a really, really long time to create the velocity changes you need. At the other end of the scale is something like the shuttle SRB's. Terribly low ISP but incredibly high thrust. Fortunately, they don't have to burn long, just enough to get the stack moving and out of the lower atmosphere before being jettisoned.

So rocket propulsion design is a compromise: how much mass do I need to launch (including the weight of the booster and components)? How much mass do I have to do it in (including the weight of the motor/engine plus propellants)? How much VOLUME do I have (which is where ISP can become important)? And how long do I have to get the thing where it's going (thrust being critical here)? If you compare how big the shuttle external tanks are, you can see that an aweful large volume is required, because LH2 has very, very low density. So even through the SSME's are among the most efficient engines ever produced in terms of ISP, they need a lot of room on the vehicle for propellants. Same thing with the RS68 used on the Delta IV (and maybe someday Ares V) booster. That gives long, skinny tanks. Long-and-skinny can create control problems for launchers as well as give payload planners fits: the payload fairings can't be too wide without making the vehicle aerodynamically unstable, and the payload ends up being WAY high, which makes it hard to install and inspect prior to launch, and more subject to vibrations and oscillations on the ride uphill.

Anyhoo . . . just today's two-bit lesson in rocketry Yes, I'm bored and have nothing else to do right now. :lol


----------



## generalpatton78

steveken said:


> Well, its good to know what they use for propellant. Now, if someone can address the second part of my question, that would be cool. I just think there has to be something better, more long term oriented than a liquid propellant.


Well there is talk of dilithium crystals, warp drives, and even FTL drives. :lol:


----------



## curt8403

steveken said:


> Well, its good to know what they use for propellant. Now, if someone can address the second part of my question, that would be cool. I just think there has to be something better, more long term oriented than a liquid propellant.


They tried an ION engine on some sort of space probe, and it failed miserably

(they could not get the signal from Paxon Broadcasting)


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Well, its good to know what they use for propellant. Now, if someone can address the second part of my question, that would be cool. I just think there has to be something better, more long term oriented than a liquid propellant.


Well, for now there's really not. Compressed gas thrusters have been used in the past but they have problems, the biggest being ISP. They have such low efficiency that you have to carry too much of the gas to make the maneuvers you want to make the design viable. Longer-term (decades still), a variation on the liquid-fuel concept might really fly: nuclear-thermal. Using a reactor in space to heat up a propellant to very high velocities. This give great thrust and great ISP. Unfortunately, there are serious problems with launching such a thing from the ground. You'd have to launch it and then only operate it in medium-orbit or higher, probably, to avoid some potentially nasty effects. These designs were tested in the 60's and into the 70's (and I've seen some unconfirmed reports that a small one was tested in orbit but I doubt it).

Another technology that holds promise is VASMIR, a relatively high-thrust ion-type propulsion, as I understand it (though I haven't read up on it in five years or more.


----------



## MattWarner

LameLefty-

I just wanted to thank you for your continued input on this thread (along with all the others who contribute). I have learned SOOO much about satellites from reading your posts.

Thanks!


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

MattWarner said:


> LameLefty-
> 
> I just wanted to thank you for your continued input on this thread (along with all the others who contribute). I have learned SOOO much about satellites from reading your posts.
> 
> Thanks!


I too want to say thanks as I too have learned a great deal. I know that it now takes 4 Motrin instead of the usual 2 to get rid of my headache. 
I also know I should have stayed awake in Science class.

Seriously you folks amaze me. Thank you.


----------



## lwilli201

LameLefty said:


> Another technology that holds promise is VASMIR, a relatively high-thrust ion-type propulsion, as I understand it (though I haven't read up on it in five years or more.


Seems that VASIMR is coming right along. This link has links to some interesting videos.

http://www.adastrarocket.com/VASIMR.html


----------



## curt8403

lwilli201 said:


> Seems that VASIMR is coming right along. This link has links to some interesting videos.
> 
> http://www.adastrarocket.com/VASIMR.html


oh wow! did you know that the address above means to the stars by hard ways?


----------



## steveken

LameLefty said:


> Well, for now there's really not. Compressed gas thrusters have been used in the past but they have problems, the biggest being ISP. They have such low efficiency that you have to carry too much of the gas to make the maneuvers you want to make the design viable. Longer-term (decades still), a variation on the liquid-fuel concept might really fly: nuclear-thermal. Using a reactor in space to heat up a propellant to very high velocities. This give great thrust and great ISP. Unfortunately, there are serious problems with launching such a thing from the ground. You'd have to launch it and then only operate it in medium-orbit or higher, probably, to avoid some potentially nasty effects. These designs were tested in the 60's and into the 70's (and I've seen some unconfirmed reports that a small one was tested in orbit but I doubt it).
> 
> Another technology that holds promise is VASMIR, a relatively high-thrust ion-type propulsion, as I understand it (though I haven't read up on it in five years or more.


Well, I was just thinking that there are other things in space, like hydrogen I believe, that are really abundant. And that we could possibly use said hydrogen somehow for propulsion systems. Perhaps some sort of a collector on-board to store it in tanks, then some sort of engine that can burn efficiently and give good ISP. (Still not entirely sure of the definition of ISP other than the Internet way, or how to use it properly in a sentence, so I apologize if I used it wrong.) This could cheapen the costs of launching it if it didn't have to carry any other fuel and if the power systems on-board the craft would help it generate its own consumables. I mean, the power systems on these new birds are a lot more powerful than in the past, surely they could spare a few watts for an instrument such as this.

And, yes, I know that using the word collector along with propulsion will open up the floor to the people that will want to tell me the Brusard Collectors for a warp nacell is still a century or so off. HA HA I am just trying to think outside of my normal box and maybe think of ways that will entertain me.


----------



## grump

steveken said:


> Well, I was just thinking that there are other things in space, like hydrogen I believe, that are really abundant.


You really should google "density of space". There isn't as much hydrogen lying around as you are thinking. Most say, on average it's about one atom per cubic centimeter.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DaWeiCai.shtml

Just not enough "stuff" out there for what you're wanting to do.


----------



## steveken

Heh, ok, but you can't say it wasn't worth a shot on my dumbas* part


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> Heh, ok, but you can't say it wasn't worth a shot on my dumbas* part


I wouldn't call you a dumbas*. I just think you should realize that there are people much more informed on this topic than you (and me too, I'm not picking on you!) who work on stuff like this every day. If there is a better way, they'll be the ones to think it up.


----------



## harsh

Regarding the propellants, Google XIPS.

Also remember that "propulsion" in space is pretty much moving a small mass really fast to generate kinetic energy. In a vacuum, there's nothing to push against.


----------



## sbl

harsh said:


> In a vacuum, there's nothing to push against.


Well, yes, as the New York Times once (in)famously said. But that has no effect on propulsion.


----------



## dphil9833

curt8403 said:


> They tried an ION engine on some sort of space probe, and it failed miserably
> 
> (they could not get the signal from Paxon Broadcasting)


If you are refering to Deep Space 1, there were some issues with other flight systems but hardly with the ion propulsion system. It used Xenon gas and was designed to operate for 200 hours but in the end ran in excess of 10,000 hours and allowed the mission to be extended so as to capture very detailed photos of Comet Borrelly in September of 2001.


----------



## harsh

sbl said:


> Well, yes, as the New York Times once (in)famously said. But that has no effect on propulsion.


But it has a significant impact on how we understand "propulsion". Many think of propulsion only in terms of propellers augering their way through a fluid.


----------



## LameLefty

> Many think of propulsion only in terms of propellers augering their way through a fluid.


Propellers don't auger their way through anything. They rotate and the cross-sectional profile of the blades creates lower pressure in the fluid above or ahead of them, and higher pressure behind, resulting in thrust. It's not at all like a screw being driven through a block of wood or something.


----------



## JLucPicard

OY! We need to have D11 light up so bad just so we can get back to satellite discussion! 

Even just a blip????


----------



## JeffBowser

Aye, we are wasting Lefty's talents by having him discourse on screwing around in water.....


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 47 ... similar ... +60km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE47)
1 32729U 08013A   08114.13532301 -.00000315  00000-0  10000-3 0   475
2 32729 000.1251 278.2740 1064788 283.2871 354.1282 00.99983212   467

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-23-2008 03:14:51[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	46
Inclination		0.125
RA of A. Node		278.274
Eccentricity		0.1064788
Argument of Perigee	283.287
Revs per day		0.99983212
Period			24h 00m 14s (1440.23 min)
Semi-major axis		42 246 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 369 x 40 366 km[/B]
Element number / age	47 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) [B]31,369 x 40,366 km[/B] (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days)
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) 31,309 x 40,411 km (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days)
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) 31,115 x 40,623 km (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days)
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days)
TLE#43 (04-17-2008 19:35:55) 30,615 x 41,065 km (+22.0 hours, at 29.1 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history with pictorial view ...


----------



## Carl Spock

JeffBowser said:


> Aye, we are wasting Lefty's talents by having him discourse on screwing around in water.....


Unless it's with your av.

And I'm sure people are right upthread about Jackie Gleason being Saturday nights. The show I remember on Saturday was in the late morning on the west coast - American Bandstand.


----------



## LameLefty

JeffBowser said:


> Aye, we are wasting Lefty's talents by having him discourse on screwing around in water.....


Nah, I'm just demonstrating that at least SOME of what I learned as an aerospace engineering undergrad stuck 18 years (egad!!!) after graduation. :lol:

And also, as I said last evening, I'm bored and there's not much else to talk about yet. :grin:


----------



## bwaldron

Carl Spock said:


> And I'm sure people are right upthread about Jackie Gleason being Saturday nights. The show I remember on Saturday was in the late morning on the west coast - American Bandstand.


And there are people here that remember when Bandstand was a daily show.


----------



## DCappy

In an earlier post I questioned the erratic behavior of DirecTV 11 in TLEs 21,19 & 20. First was that they were released out of order and second I did not understand how they release TLEs. After studying the spreadsheet I realized that they did not only release TLEs after an orbit, but during an orbit also. Not only did they release TLEs out of order, but DURING a maneuver. I apologize if I caused anyone some anxiety.

Below is a spreadsheet(I hope, never tried this before) that is “Thinned Out”. I tried for 24 hour periods. Really smoothes things out.

I am still curious as to why they overshot the target apogee of 35,786km by so much(5,446km, TLE#21). Guess it’s part of Boeing’s “Patented Process”.

As of TLE#47 DirecTV 11 is 4,417km below Perigee and 4,580km above Apogee.

Taking an average of the “bumps” from TLE#32 thru 47, it will take 33 days to reach Perigee and 69 days to reach Apogee. Just speculation, we all know that they can kick this puppy in the butt at anytime.


Like to say thanks to LameLefty for some very informative and educational posts.

P.S. I’m 67 today, retired, the weather has been rain, cold, snowflakes for the last week. Can’t get in the yard work. Bored.


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> I am still curious as to why they overshot the target apogee of 35,786km by so much(5,446km, TLE#21). Guess it's part of Boeing's "Patented Process".


I'm curious too. With D10 they didn't overshoot by that much.... they never went more than about 1400 km higher than the target apogee.


----------



## Newshawk

bwaldron said:


> And there are people here that remember when Bandstand was a daily show.


I can remember when Bandstand was a _LOCAL _show!


----------



## swans

My guess is they wanted to find the sweet spot in the orbit for changing the perigee and apogee by the same amounts during adjustments.


----------



## jleupen

DCappy said:


> In an earlier post I questioned the erratic behavior of DirecTV 11 in TLEs 21,19 & 20. First was that they were released out of order and second I did not understand how they release TLEs. After studying the spreadsheet I realized that they did not only release TLEs after an orbit, but during an orbit also. Not only did they release TLEs out of order, but DURING a maneuver. I apologize if I caused anyone some anxiety.
> 
> Below is a spreadsheet(I hope, never tried this before) that is "Thinned Out". I tried for 24 hour periods. Really smoothes things out.
> 
> I am still curious as to why they overshot the target apogee of 35,786km by so much(5,446km, TLE#21). Guess it's part of Boeing's "Patented Process".
> 
> As of TLE#47 DirecTV 11 is 4,417km below Perigee and 4,580km above Apogee.
> 
> Taking an average of the "bumps" from TLE#32 thru 47, it will take 33 days to reach Perigee and 69 days to reach Apogee. Just speculation, we all know that they can kick this puppy in the butt at anytime.
> 
> Like to say thanks to LameLefty for some very informative and educational posts.
> 
> P.S. I'm 67 today, retired, the weather has been rain, cold, snowflakes for the last week. Can't get in the yard work. Bored.


Thanks DCappy! I was wanting to do this myself, but work and kids keep me really busy, the weather is beautiful, and I've been working in the yard...


----------



## rock819

would anyone like to post a visual on the sat to see how close it is to being parked


----------



## Sixto

rock819 said:


> would anyone like to post a visual on the sat to see how close it is to being parked


post#2 ...


----------



## litzdog911

Sixto said:


> post#2 ...


Getting closer and closer. But slowly.


----------



## Sixto

litzdog911 said:


> Getting closer and closer. But slowly.


Very slowly


----------



## crashHD

are we there yet?


----------



## DCappy

DIRECTV-12 said:


> D11 UPDATE!!!!
> 
> Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far.
> 
> Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.
> 
> :computer:


You posted this on 4/9/08 and D11 a long way from parked. Does this mean that April 30th is not going to be such a good day after all.

Myself and others come here evryday looking for clues as to when D11 will park it. If you hear anything we would love to know.

Thanks,
Dave


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> It's not at all like a screw being driven through a block of wood or something.


Certainly not, but that is largely the device that those who don't understand lift use to mentally visualize propulsion. Lift is not a good mnemonic either as there is no lift in a vacuum.

Propellers work by displacing a mass of fluid which is essentially how thrusters work. The masses required in space are substantially less as there is negligible friction and reduced gravity is pretty much the only force that needs to be overcome.


----------



## richall01

On 99(b) signal strengh on my H20-600 I am now getting :
Satellite Transponders (6 Total at 99 (b))

1-8 0, 0, 75, 9, 0, 0, n/a, n/a Note: I was getting the - and not 0

What is up with this?


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Certainly not ...


{snipped remainder}

Lighten up, Francis. :lol:

Dude, you will argue with ANYONE on a Directv thread. You don't HAVE to get the last meaningless word in just because it's your forum reputation, you know. And are you even a Directv sub these days or are you still with Dish? If so, why are you bothering to hang around this thread and snipe? Let it go, man. :nono2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

:backtotop 

So at the end of the day.....

D11 is nearing its final position, and about mid-May should begin full testing with the ground testers.

Unless I'm not reading things right...


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Hey listen, y'all leave me out of this. I didn't DO anything!

(I'm cursed with the name "Francis")


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :backtotop
> 
> So at the end of the day.....
> 
> D11 is nearing its final position, and about mid-May should begin full testing with the ground testers.
> 
> Unless I'm not reading things right...


I'm holding onto the April 30th hint... :righton:


----------



## Indiana627

smiddy said:


> I'm holding onto the April 30th hint... :righton:


Me too!

At least it won't be much longer before we'll know if we're foolish or not.


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> {snipped remainder}
> 
> Lighten up, Francis. :lol:
> 
> Dude, you will argue with ANYONE on a Directv thread. You don't HAVE to get the last meaningless word in just because it's your forum reputation, you know. And are you even a Directv sub these days or are you still with Dish? If so, why are you bothering to hang around this thread and snipe? Let it go, man. :nono2:


Don't hold your breath, LL. He is the same way over at Satguys.


----------



## oldfantom

LameLefty said:


> Propellers don't auger their way through anything. They rotate and the cross-sectional profile of the blades creates lower pressure in the fluid above or ahead of them, and higher pressure behind, resulting in thrust. It's not at all like a screw being driven through a block of wood or something.


Actually LL, as I learned the Army, rotary aircraft don't fly, they just beat the air into submission. At least that was on my coffee mug. :scratchin

I know, I know, :backtotop


----------



## Drew2k

Indiana627 said:


> Me too!
> 
> At least it won't be much longer before we'll know if we're foolish or not.


IMO, we're only foolish if we BELIEVE that something will occur on April 30 with D11 because we read it in a post from D12. If we just HOPE it occurs, that's not foolish ... it's maybe unrealistic, given the latest data, but ... not foolish to HOPE!


----------



## smiddy

Indiana627 said:


> Me too!
> 
> At least it won't be much longer before we'll know if we're foolish or not.


I can't speak for you but I'm foolish most of the time.  I tend to throw caution to the wind. However in this case, since we've gotten a couple of hints I think it is pretty safe to say something will happen on April 30, 2008 that we all will be happy with with regard to DirecTV 11.


----------



## loudo




----------



## Ed Campbell

loudo said:


>


:lol:


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> IMO, we're only foolish if we BELIEVE that something will occur on April 30 with D11 because we read it in a post from D12. If we just HOPE it occurs, that's not foolish ... it's maybe unrealistic, given the latest data, but ... not foolish to HOPE!


If one _beleives_ in DirecTV 12 as an entitiy posting on here, then it is _faith_ that we hold on to, and perhaps hope. I am hopeful too. This is an exciting time and I'm glad to be a part of it, even if my part is insignificant to the whole scheme of DirecTV 11 getting going and all. I will be glued to my equipment on April 30 via Slingbox Pro, since I'll be away on business. I will likely do as I did with the whole HD anticipation...like a junky needing his next fix. :hurah:

(No offense to all you junkies out there)


----------



## smiddy

loudo said:


>





Ed Campbell said:


> :lol:


:biggthump


----------



## rotomike

Im sticking with my June 10th time that i stated in December before we see any channels worth mentioning. Not including a test channel or something of that nature. 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 48 ... +291km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE48)
1 32729U 08013A   08115.57538079 -.00000311  00000-0  10000-3 0   489
2 32729 000.1286 270.8623 0986965 290.4039 152.8777 01.00133596   476

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-24-2008 13:48:32[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	47
Inclination		0.129
RA of A. Node		270.862
Eccentricity		0.0986965
Argument of Perigee	290.404
Revs per day		1.00133596
Period			23h 58m 04s (1438.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 204 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 660 x 39 991 km[/B]
Element number / age	48 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) [B]31,660 x 39,991 km[/B] (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days)
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) 31,369 x 40,366 km (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days)
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) 31,309 x 40,411 km (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days)
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) 31,115 x 40,623 km (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days)
TLE#44 (04-19-2008 05:36:47) 30,883 x 40,871 km (+34.0 hours, at 30.5 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history with pictorial view ...


----------



## Ken984

another tle

1 32729U 08013A 08115.70000000 -.00000303 00000-0 00000+0 0 499
2 32729 000.1300 275.2080 0976847 286.3290 197.4810 00.99979177 484


----------



## gslater

Ken984 said:


> another tle
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08115.70000000 -.00000303 00000-0 00000+0 0 499
> 2 32729 000.1300 275.2080 0976847 286.3290 197.4810 00.99979177 484


Am I misreading this or has it pretty much stopped its eastward drift? Can someone run this through their program and spit out some numbers I can understand?


----------



## Ken984

Right now its drifting between 57 west and 79 west. So yes it is not moving farther east like it was, raising the perigee of the orbit will make it drift to the west for a while, then they will lower the Apogee and stop it right at 99.225(hopefully soon!)



gslater said:


> Am I misreading this or has it pretty much stopped its eastward drift? Can someone run this through their program and spit out some numbers I can understand?


----------



## dms1

gslater said:


> Am I misreading this or has it pretty much stopped its eastward drift? Can someone run this through their program and spit out some numbers I can understand?


Not quite. The period is 0.99979177 orbits per day as opposed to the Earth's rotation which is 0.99726957 rotations per day. Therefore, it is still fast by about 0.25% (just under one degree per day).


----------



## syphix

Ken984 said:


> another tle
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08115.70000000 -.00000303 00000-0 00000+0 0 499
> 2 32729 000.1300 275.2080 0976847 286.3290 197.4810 00.99979177 484


31 742 x 39 996 km


----------



## gslater

dms1 said:


> Not quite. The period is 0.99979177 orbits per day as opposed to the Earth's rotation which is 0.99726957 rotations per day. Therefore, it is still fast by about 0.25% (just under one degree per day).


Well that's better than it's been so it's definitely slowing down it's eastward motion at least.


----------



## cartrivision

smiddy said:


> I'm holding onto the April 30th hint... :righton:


I wouldn't hold on too tightly to your hopes that are based on that hint . The TLE histories of D10 and D11 pretty convincingly suggest that it's going to be closer to May 30th than April 30th when D11 reaches it's final orbital position, and not out of the question that it could be significantly past May 30th.

They took about 30 days to do the last 1500 km of apogee and perigee adjustments for D10, and the current rate of adjustment, D11 still has weeks to go before they are even to the point of doing it's last 1500 km of apogee and perigee adjustments.


----------



## Dave

The big question now is whether or not it will be (parked) on April 30? If it gets parked on that day, then it will be weeks, maybe before all the final testing is done. As some have said DirectV is not going to light up the bird for the masses until September. Also as I have said before, there are not 150 HD channels available to the masses. They do have space on some of there birds to bring up the 5 or 6 HD channels left that are ready for transmitting to the masses. ABC Family, Hall, etc.etc. And I like the rest of you here do enjoy my HD from DirectV.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> Not quite. The period is 0.99979177 orbits per day as opposed to the Earth's rotation which is 0.99726957 rotations per day. Therefore, it is still fast by about 0.25% (just under one degree per day).


That is incorrect. At 0.99979177 revolutionsper day, the satellite is slowly drifting west. It has to be at about 1.0027 revolutions per day to match the earth's rotation.


----------



## smiddy

cartrivision said:


> I wouldn't hold on too tightly to your hopes that are based on that hint . The TLE histories of D10 and D11 pretty convincingly suggest that it's going to be closer to May 30th than April 30th when D11 reaches it's final orbital position, and not out of the question that it could be significantly past May 30th.
> 
> They took about 30 days to do the last 1500 km of apogee and perigee adjustments for D10, and the current rate of adjustment, D11 still has weeks to go before they are even to the point of doing it's last 1500 km of apogee and perigee adjustments.


I don't know the mechanics of it, that is for sure. Sixto said a few days ago, baring any changes that it looked like May 10th-ish. I suspect that something will occur shortly in order to get it to a close proximity of the parking spot by then, otherwise we'll wait. 

It is none the less fun to watch and hope.


----------



## cartrivision

smiddy said:


> I don't know the mechanics of it, that is for sure. Sixto said a few days ago, baring any changes that it looked like May 10th-ish. I suspect that something will occur shortly in order to get it to a close proximity of the parking spot by then, otherwise we'll wait.
> 
> It is none the less fun to watch and hope.


I'd like to know what Sixto is basing that guess on. As I said, they took 30 days to do the last 1500 km of adjustments to D10, and D11 still has days or weeks to go before it's even to the point of requiring the last 1500 km of adjustments.


----------



## gslater

cartrivision said:


> That is incorrect. At 0.99979177 revolutionsper day, the satellite is slowly drifting west. It has to be at about 1.0027 revolutions per day to match the earth's rotation.


So it was already drifting very slightly west but now they've sped up the process? Perhaps they are finally maneuvering to park it. I'll be eagerly awaiting additional TLE's and the expert opinion of those "in the know" as to whether this is the start of something or just another blip in the maneuvering of this bird.


----------



## dms1

cartrivision said:


> That is incorrect. At 0.99979177 revolutionsper day, the satellite is slowly drifting west. It has to be at about 1.0027 revolutions per day to match the earth's rotation.


Are you sure? A sidereal day is shorter than a calendar day.


----------



## smiddy

cartrivision said:


> I'd like to know what Sixto is basing that guess on. As I said, they took 30 days to do the last 1500 km of adjustments to D10, and D11 still has days or weeks to go before it's even to the point of requiring the last 1500 km of adjustments.


I think he based off of the TLE data, I beleive a direct interpolation based on rates of change.

As far as I'm aware these are entirely different ways of approching the same thing so there will be differences. What they are I have no idea. But I can always hope.


----------



## cartrivision

cartrivision said:


> That is incorrect. At 0.99979177 revolutionsper day, the satellite is slowly drifting west. It has to be at about 1.0027 revolutions per day to match the earth's rotation.
> 
> 
> dms1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure? A sidereal day is shorter than a calendar day.
Click to expand...

Yes, at 1.0027 revolutions per day, the satellite will complete one revolution in slightly less than a calendar day, i.e. in the time of the shorter sidereal day. To be geostationary, the orbit has to be one rotation per sidereal day.


----------



## syphix

Has ANYONE ever talked to "DIRECTV-11" or "DIRECTV-12" out of "character"?? Has anyone ever checked on their credentials to ensure they are an authority on the matter?? 

I've never taken what he/she has said as gospel truth. A "hint" perhaps, wishful thinking and prayers....


----------



## cartrivision

smiddy said:


> I think he based off of the TLE data, I beleive a direct interpolation based on rates of change.
> 
> As far as I'm aware these are entirely different ways of approching the same thing so there will be differences. What they are I have no idea. But I can always hope.


That's what I'm basing it off of too, and I see nothing in the TLE data that suggests that the maneuvering will be complete by May 10.


----------



## dms1

cartrivision said:


> Yes, at 1.0027 revolutions per day, the satellite will complete one revolution in slightly less than a calendar day, i.e. in the time of the shorter sidereal day. To be geostationary, the orbit has to match the earth's rotation that happens in a sidereal day.


Doh! You are of course correct and I'm suffering from serious brain-fade. :eek2:


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> Has ANYONE ever talked to "DIRECTV-11" or "DIRECTV-12" out of "character"?? Has anyone ever checked on their credentials to ensure they are an authority on the matter??
> 
> I've never taken what he/she has said as gospel truth. A "hint" perhaps, wishful thinking and prayers....


good point, maybe I will PM them and ask who and where they are.


----------



## gslater

dms1 said:


> Are you sure? A sidereal day is shorter than a calendar day.


I just get more confused all the time (my wife agrees whole heartedly with that statement by the way) but based on the last TLE that showed over 1 revolution per day and this one that shows less than one, I know that, at least, I'm correct in saying that the westward drift is either beginning or speeding up which is a good thing, so long as the folks at Boeing don't decide to move it the other way again.

I feel like one of my kids. I just want to yell out "ARE WE THERE YET?" except that I know it won't do any good! :grin:


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Dave said:


> The big question now is whether or not it will be (parked) on April 30? If it gets parked on that day, then it will be weeks, maybe before all the final testing is done. As some have said DirectV is not going to light up the bird for the masses until September. Also as I have said before, there are not 150 HD channels available to the masses. They do have space on some of there birds to bring up the 5 or 6 HD channels left that are ready for transmitting to the masses. ABC Family, Hall, etc.etc. And I like the rest of you here do enjoy my HD from DirectV.


I'm patient and agree with what you say - but remember that there are a great deal of us that are waiting for more than just the 5 or 6 HD channels that are left.

Dish just brought up locals in HD in Columbia, SC. I'm kinda looking forward to the same from DirecTV, see. So I'll be happy when D11 gets to where it's going and gets lit up.


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> Has ANYONE ever talked to "DIRECTV-11" or "DIRECTV-12" out of "character"?? Has anyone ever checked on their credentials to ensure they are an authority on the matter??
> 
> I've never taken what he/she has said as gospel truth. A "hint" perhaps, wishful thinking and prayers....


I have spoken with DIRECTV-10 and DIRECTV-11 and am reasonably assured of their ability to gather correct information. And that they are two different people who just want to help share what they know and can gather. Thanks!

There has been a time when one or the other posted based upon general knowledge which turned out to be correct in the general but incorrect in the specific because of late problems that hadn't been released, even to them.

I have not vetted DIRECTV-12 yet.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Indiana627

All 3 (DIRECTV-10, DIRECTV-11 and DIRECTV-12) are different people? I just assumed they were all the same person with different usernames.


----------



## grump

Indiana627 said:


> All 3 (DIRECTV-10, DIRECTV-11 and DIRECTV-12) are different people? I just assumed they were all the same person with different usernames.


Funny. I always assumed everybody else here was just Earl talking to himself.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Indiana627 said:


> All 3 (DIRECTV-10, DIRECTV-11 and DIRECTV-12) are different people? I just assumed they were all the same person with different usernames.


That was one of the concerns, as that would be a violation of the rules. I'm confident about DIRECTV-10 and DIRECTV-11; I'm pretty sure about DIRECTV-12 being a different person.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

Indiana627 said:


> All 3 (DIRECTV-10, DIRECTV-11 and DIRECTV-12) are different people? I just assumed they were all the same person with different usernames.


You mean they aren't the actual satellites using AI to communicate to us? I'm crushed.










"Just what do you think you're doing, Dave? "


----------



## LameLefty

Thanks for that info Tom. It's good to know.


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> That was one of the concerns, as that would be a violation of the rules. I'm confident about DIRECTV-10 and DIRECTV-11; I'm pretty sure about DIRECTV-12 being a different person.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Ah yes, violation of the rules. I had thought about that too. So maybe the 3 people behind these 3 usernames are located in 3 offices in a row somewhere in the bowels of D* HQ.

And now an admonition to myself: :backtotop


----------



## DCappy

Update after TLE#48. I put the new numbers into my spreadsheet and thought that I would note the changes for anyone interested.

As of TLE#48 (Day 35.8) the following changes:

Perigee went up 291km leaving 4,126 km to go.
Guesstimate went from 33 days to go, to 28 days to go.

Apogee went down 375km leaving 4,202km to go.
Guesstimate went from 69 days to go, to 48 days to go.

Both Apogee and Perigee numbers are increasing and moving in the right direction.


----------



## HoTat2

While I'm pretty sure as with most things, it is rooted in the non-ideal or real world state of affairs for earth orbiting space objects. Still, out of curiosity, why exactly does it take 1.0027 satellite orbits per earth’s sidereal day for a geostationary rate and not precisely 1.0000…?


----------



## Interceptor

cartrivision said:


> I'd like to know what Sixto is basing that guess on. As I said, they took 30 days to do the last 1500 km of adjustments to D10, and D11 still has days or weeks to go before it's even to the point of requiring the last 1500 km of adjustments.


His statement was essentially that without any other manmade interventions after that particular TLE, the satellite would be poised above 99 degrees longitude around the 13th. I calculated the same thing. However, seeing that there have been adjustments to orbit since his statement, the same result does not hold true.

Thus, with the latest TLE, and NO changes by anything other than celestial mechanics, expect DirecTV-11 to be over 99 degrees around May 16. But, we all know there will be adjustments all along, and everything is pure speculation.


----------



## bubbers44

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/time/timekeeping.html

This site does an illustration of the sidereal day vs calendar day making it easy to understand.


----------



## Drew2k

Dave said:


> The big question now is whether or not it will be (parked) on April 30? If it gets parked on that day, then it will be weeks, maybe before all the final testing is done. As some have said DirectV is not going to light up the bird for the masses until September. Also as I have said before, there are not 150 HD channels available to the masses. They do have space on some of there birds to bring up the 5 or 6 HD channels left that are ready for transmitting to the masses. ABC Family, Hall, etc.etc. And I like the rest of you here do enjoy my HD from DirectV.


You should consider more than just the remaining national HD channels ... there are many local markets waiting for HD locals, and almost ALL markets are waiting for HD PBS. I think if DIRECTV-11 is ready, DIRECTV will fire-it up and not wait until September - they want to light up those LILs as soon as they can...


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> While I'm pretty sure as with most things, it is rooted in the non-ideal or real world state of affairs for earth orbiting space objects. Still, out of curiosity, why exactly does it take 1.0027 satellite orbits per earth's sidereal day for a geostationary rate and not precisely 1.0000&#8230;?


It is more fundamental than a non-ideal generalization. The thing is that the Earth doesn't, contrary to popular opinion, take one day to rotate on its axis. A day is the time between consecutive noons (the sun being directly overhead). However, for this to occur, the Earth has to rotate once and then a bit more to allow for the fact that during that rotation the Earth has also moved around the Sun a bit, so the Sun is no longer in the same place.

The actual rotational period of the Earth, and hence orbital period of a geostationary satellite, is one sidereal day which is just over 23 hours and 56 minutes.


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> It is more fundamental than a non-ideal generalization. The thing is that the Earth doesn't, contrary to popular opinion, take one day to rotate on its axis. A day is the time between consecutive noons (the sun being directly overhead). However, for this to occur, the Earth has to rotate once and then a bit more to allow for the fact that during that rotation the Earth has also moved around the Sun a bit, so the Sun is no longer in the same place.
> 
> The actual rotational period of the Earth, and hence orbital period of a geostationary satellite, is one sidereal day which is just over 23 hours and 56 minutes.


Oh&#8230; OK, I realize this, but I thought the TLEs list the satellite's orbital rate as per the earth's sidereal day, not solar. So a geostationary orbit is 1.0027 revolutions per solar day then?


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> So a geostationary orbit is 1.0027 revolutions per solar day then?


Yep - about 366/365.


----------



## cartrivision

Interceptor said:


> His statement was essentially that without any other manmade interventions after that particular TLE, the satellite would be poised above 99 degrees longitude around the 13th. I calculated the same thing. However, seeing that there have been adjustments to orbit since his statement, the same result does not hold true.
> 
> Thus, with the latest TLE, and NO changes by anything other than celestial mechanics, expect DirecTV-11 to be over 99 degrees around May 16. But, we all know there will be adjustments all along, and everything is pure speculation.


I am considering the altitude more than the longitude. In addition to being at the correct longitude, it also has to be at the correct altitude, and considering the slow but steady process of using small steps to adjust the altitude of D11 that has been happening for the past two weeks, plus considering that they took 30 days to do the last 1500 km of altitude adjustments for D10, I would guess that D11 is still probably more than a month away from being at it's final location.


----------



## azarby

DCappy said:


> Update after TLE#48. I put the new numbers into my spreadsheet and thought that I would note the changes for anyone interested.
> 
> As of TLE#48 (Day 35.8) the following changes:
> 
> Perigee went up 291km leaving 4,126 km to go.
> Guesstimate went from 33 days to go, to 28 days to go.
> 
> Apogee went down 375km leaving 4,202km to go.
> Guesstimate went from 69 days to go, to 48 days to go.
> 
> Both Apogee and Perigee numbers are increasing and moving in the right direction.


Here is another one to crunch on.

1 32729U 08013A 08115.70000000 -.00000303 00000-0 00000+0 0 499
2 32729 000.1300 275.2080 0976847 286.3290 197.4810 00.99979177 484

Bob


----------



## Sixto

Here's the latest with that new #49 TLE which is 3 hours past the older one ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE49)
1 32729U 08013A   08115.70000000 -.00000303  00000-0  00000+0 0   499
2 32729 000.1300 275.2080 0976847 286.3290 197.4810 00.99979177   484

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-24-2008 16:48:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	48
Inclination		0.130
RA of A. Node		275.208
Eccentricity		0.0976847
Argument of Perigee	286.329
Revs per day		0.99979177
Period			24h 00m 17s (1440.28 min)
Semi-major axis		42 247 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 742 x 39 996 km[/B]
Element number / age	49 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) [B]31,742 x 39,996 km[/B] (+3.0 hours, at 36.0 days)
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) 31,660 x 39,991 km (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days)
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) 31,369 x 40,366 km (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days)
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) 31,309 x 40,411 km (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days)
TLE#45 (04-21-2008 02:40:29) 31,115 x 40,623 km (+45.1 hours, at 32.4 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... post #2 has the complete history with pictorial view ...


----------



## Sixto

Interceptor said:


> His statement was essentially that without any other manmade interventions after that particular TLE, the satellite would be poised above 99 degrees longitude around the 13th. I calculated the same thing. However, seeing that there have been adjustments to orbit since his statement, the same result does not hold true.
> 
> Thus, with the latest TLE, and NO changes by anything other than celestial mechanics, expect DirecTV-11 to be over 99 degrees around May 16. But, we all know there will be adjustments all along, and everything is pure speculation.


Exactly right.

cartvision is also right. that just gets us to 99, also need to have exact altitude which also may take a while.

but my guess is that they will do something before. at least i hope


----------



## carl6

Indiana627 said:


> So maybe the 3 people behind these 3 usernames are located in 3 offices in a row somewhere in the bowels of D* HQ.


Or somewhere in Boeing????


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> Update after TLE#48. I put the new numbers into my spreadsheet and thought that I would note the changes for anyone interested.
> 
> As of TLE#48 (Day 35.8) the following changes:
> 
> Perigee went up 291km leaving 4,126 km to go.
> Guesstimate went from 33 days to go, to 28 days to go.
> 
> Apogee went down 375km leaving 4,202km to go.
> Guesstimate went from 69 days to go, to 48 days to go.
> 
> Both Apogee and Perigee numbers are increasing and moving in the right direction.


As you noted in the second to last paragraph, apogee is decreasing (which *is* the "right" direction).


----------



## Indiana627

carl6 said:


> Or somewhere in Boeing????


Good point!


----------



## Sixto

An update to the D10/D11 compare based on last few days ...


Code:


[B][U]Day[/U][/B]	    [B][U]DirecTV-10[/U][/B]    	    [B][U]DirecTV-11[/U][/B]
1	   414 x 35 813 km	   243 x 36,067 km
2 	 4 919 x 35 792 km	
3	 4 921 x 36 526 km	
4	 4 923 x 37 127 km	   463 x 36,484 km
6	 8 277 x 37 105 km	   463 x 38,996 km
7	17 992 x 37 082 km	   468 x 40,742 km
8	17 994 x 37 083 km	 7,392 x 40,992 km
10	31 290 x 37 120 km	 7,387 x 40,988 km
11	34 206 x 37 119 km	
12	34 100 x 37 245 km	17,363 x 41,066 km
13	34 099 x 37 129 km	17,362 x 41,064 km
14	34 088 x 37 109 km	
15	34 085 x 37 109 km	
16	34 088 x 37 104 km	29,456 x 41,232 km
17	34 123 x 37 099 km	29,621 x 41,228 km
18	34 179 x 37 102 km	29,621 x 41,228 km
19	34 239 x 37 050 km	29,622 x 41,228 km
21	34 449 x 37 082 km	29,723 x 41,211 km
24	34 759 x 36 906 km	30,007 x 41,174 km
26	35 111 x 36 572 km	30,345 x 41,133 km
29	34 923 x 36 787 km	30,615 x 41,065 km
31	35 603 x 36 177 km	30,883 x 40,871 km
32	35 644 x 36 057 km	31,115 x 40,623 km
33	35 630 x 36 051 km	31,309 x 40,411 km
34	35 663 x 35 964 km	31,369 x 40,366 km
35	35 740 x 35 919 km	31,660 x 39,991 km
36	35 737 x 35 864 km	31,742 x 39,996 km
37	35 739 x 35 876 km	
38	35 742 x 35 809 km	
40	35 784 x 35 789 km	
41	35 784 x 35 787 km


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Sixto! There is an interesting difference the second to the last on D11 and the third from the last, like it got a nudge, but then it slowed again.


----------



## houskamp

Sixto said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> cartvision is also right. that just gets us to 99, also need to have exact altitude which also may take a while.
> 
> but my guess is that they will do something before. at least i hope


(just thinking out loud)
Wouldn't the burn to finalize the orbit also move the position? Just thinking that the time maybe shorter because the last burn might also fix the position..


----------



## Sixto

Just decided to look at Spaceway-1 (also SeaLaunch).

Here's what I got so far ... tedious ... I should be done within an hour ... *will keep updating this post!*

Edit: Ok. done! Very interesting when compared to Spaceway-1, D11 is very similar strategy with slightly different timing.


Code:


[B][U]Day#[/U][/B]	    [B][U]DirecTV-10[/U][/B]    	    [B][U]DirecTV-11[/U][/B]		   [B][U]Spaceway-1[/U][/B]
1	   414 x 35 813 km	   243 x 36,067 km	   262 x 34 097 km
2 	 4 919 x 35 792 km				
3	 4 921 x 36 526 km				 1 061 x 34 311 km
4	 4 923 x 37 127 km	   463 x 36,484 km	 1 058 x 34 315 km
6	 8 277 x 37 105 km	   463 x 38,996 km	 1 067 x 37 418 km
7	17 992 x 37 082 km	   468 x 40,742 km	
8	17 994 x 37 083 km	 7,392 x 40,992 km	 1 066 x 45 481 km
10	31 290 x 37 120 km	 7,387 x 40,988 km	 4 538 x 45 472 km
11	34 206 x 37 119 km				10 508 x 45 520 km
12	34 100 x 37 245 km	17,363 x 41,066 km	21 197 x 45 466 km
13	34 099 x 37 129 km	17,362 x 41,064 km	21 197 x 45 466 km	
14	34 088 x 37 109 km				25 415 x 45 483 km
15	34 085 x 37 109 km				25 415 x 45 470 km
16	34 088 x 37 104 km	29,456 x 41,232 km	26 063 x 45 474 km
17	34 123 x 37 099 km	29,621 x 41,228 km	26 097 x 45 474 km
18	34 179 x 37 102 km	29,621 x 41,228 km	26 097 x 45 475 km	
19	34 239 x 37 050 km	29,622 x 41,228 km	26 098 x 45 476 km
21	34 449 x 37 082 km	29,723 x 41,211 km	26 099 x 45 480 km		
24	34 759 x 36 906 km	30,007 x 41,174 km	26 218 x 45 281 km
26	35 111 x 36 572 km	30,345 x 41,133 km	26 371 x 45 197 km
29	34 923 x 36 787 km	30,615 x 41,065 km	26 903 x 44 722 km
31	35 603 x 36 177 km	30,883 x 40,871 km	27 317 x 44 295 km
32	35 644 x 36 057 km	31,115 x 40,623 km	
33	35 630 x 36 051 km	31,309 x 40,411 km
34	35 663 x 35 964 km	31,369 x 40,366 km	27 342 x 44 275 km
35	35 740 x 35 919 km	31,660 x 39,991 km	27 738 x 43 839 km
36	35 737 x 35 864 km	31,742 x 39,996 km
37	35 739 x 35 876 km				28 120 x 43 443 km
38	35 742 x 35 809 km				27 991 x 43 578 km
40	35 784 x 35 789 km				28 454 x 43 005 km
41	35 784 x 35 787 km	
42							28 593 x 42 985 km
45							29 272 x 42 297 km
48							29 769 x 41 851 km
49							29 918 x 41 704 km
51							30 054 x 41 420 km
52							30 271 x 41 282 km
56							30 647 x 40 926 km
57							30 784 x 40 711 km
58							30 934 x 40 566 km
60							30 961 x 40 636 km
64							31 829 x 39 718 km
65							31 988 x 39 539 km
66							32 106 x 39 528 km
67							32 237 x 39 403 km
69							32 573 x 38 958 km
70							32 679 x 38 954 km
72							33 058 x 38 503 km
73							33 136 x 38 497 km
74							33 338 x 38 206 km
76							33 642 x 37 920 km
77							33 752 x 37 796 km
78							33 226 x 38 341 km
80							33 661 x 37 942 km
81							34 201 x 37 322 km
83							34 201 x 37 307 km
84							34 713 x 36 881 km
85							34 782 x 36 735 km
86							34 999 x 36 585 km
87							34 634 x 36 970 km
88							34 847 x 36 770 km
92							34 847 x 36 770 km
93							35 763 x 35 844 km
97							35 784 x 35 790 km
98							35 783 x 35 792 km
99							35 784 x 35 790 km
101							35 784 x 35 790 km
102							35 784 x 35 790 km
103							35 784 x 35 790 km
105							35 785 x 35 789 km


----------



## Sixto

The first observation after comparing D11 to Spaceway1.

At day#16, D11 was at 29,456 x 41,232 km
At day#36 (today, +20 days), it's at 31,742 x 39,996 km.
It went up 2286km over 20 days.

At day#45, Spaceway-1 was at 29 272 x 42 297 km
At day#65 (+20 days), it was at 31 988 x 39 539 km
It went up 2716km over 20 days.

While not the same, it certainly seems to be following a similar concept. 

Slow and steady!

Probably many more comparisons that can be made but now have Spaceway-1 to compare to.

Enjoy!


----------



## Rakul

Drew2k said:


> You should consider more than just the remaining national HD channels ... there are many local markets waiting for HD locals, and almost ALL markets are waiting for HD PBS. I think if DIRECTV-11 is ready, DIRECTV will fire-it up and not wait until September - they want to light up those LILs as soon as they can...


Man I hope you are right on this, the only thing Dish has that DirecTV doesn't right now that I care about are Richmond, VA locals in HD. Can't wait to catch up


----------



## Sixto

Been playing around with the data from earlier (D10/D11/Spaceway-1) in a spreadsheet.

Very, very interesting.

With all three, once the satellite gets to a center point of about 35800km: (low+high)/2 ... it then drifts to it's final location with a few hundred km change per day.

The wider the distance between the low and the high at the start, when the center is at 35800, the longer it takes.

Current guess is we're 30-40 days away from geostationary, unless they do something different, but it certainly looks very similar to D10 & Spaceway-1, just a different start point for the low.


Code:


	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]D11[/B]	[B]D11	D11
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U][/B]
1	414	35813	18114	262	34097	17180	243	36067	18155
2	4919	35792	20356						
3	4921	36526	20724	1061	34311	17686			
4	4923	37127	21025	1058	34315	17687	463	36484	18474
6	8277	37105	22691	1067	37418	19243	463	38996	19730
7	17992	37082	27537				468	40742	20605
8	17994	37083	27539	1066	45481	23274	7392	40992	24192
10	31290	37120	34205	4538	45472	25005	7387	40988	24188
11	34206	37119	35663	10508	45520	28014			
12	34100	37245	35673	21197	45466	33332	17363	41066	29215
13	34099	37129	35614	21197	45466	33332	17362	41064	29213
14	34088	37109	35599	25415	45483	35449			
15	34085	37109	35597	25415	45470	35443			
16	34088	37104	35596	26063	45474	35769	29456	41232	35344
17	34123	37099	35611	26097	45474	35786	29621	41228	35425
18	34179	37102	35641	26097	45475	35786	29621	41228	35425
19	34239	37050	35645	26098	45476	35787	29622	41228	35425
21	34449	37082	35766	26099	45480	35790	29723	41211	35467
24	34759	36906	35833	26218	45281	35750	30007	41174	35591
26	35111	36572	35842	26371	45197	35784	30345	41133	35739
29	34923	36787	35855	26903	44722	35813	30615	41065	35840
31	35603	36177	35890	27317	44295	35806	30883	40871	35877
32	35644	36057	35851				31115	40623	35869
33	35630	36051	35841				31309	40411	35860
34	35663	35964	35814	27342	44275	35809	31369	40366	35868
35	35740	35919	35830	27738	43839	35789	31660	39991	35826
36	35737	35864	35801				31742	39996	35869
37	35739	35876	35808	28120	43443	35782			
38	35742	35809	35776	27991	43578	35785			
40	35784	35789	35787	28454	43005	35730			
41	35784	35787	35786						
42				28593	42985	35789			
45				29272	42297	35785			
48				29769	41851	35810			
49				29918	41704	35811			
51				30054	41420	35737			
52				30271	41282	35777			
56				30647	40926	35787			
57				30784	40711	35748			
58				30934	40566	35750			
60				30961	40636	35799			
64				31829	39718	35774			
65				31988	39539	35764			
66				32106	39528	35817			
67				32237	39403	35820			
69				32573	38958	35766			
70				32679	38954	35817			
72				33058	38503	35781			
73				33136	38497	35817			
74				33338	38206	35772			
76				33642	37920	35781			
77				33752	37796	35774			
78				33226	38341	35784			
80				33661	37942	35802			
81				34201	37322	35762			
83				34201	37307	35754			
84				34713	36881	35797			
85				34782	36735	35759			
86				34999	36585	35792			
87				34634	36970	35802			
88				34847	36770	35809			
92				34847	36770	35809			
93				35763	35844	35804			
97				35784	35790	35787			
98				35783	35792	35788			
99				35784	35790	35787			
101				35784	35790	35787			
102				35784	35790	35787			
103				35784	35790	35787			
105				35785	35789	35787


----------



## rotomike

What ever happened to people saying that launching over the equator would get it in GEO much earlier then lets say D10. Seems it takes much longer. Yeah it may burn less fuel but it sure does take awhile.

Mike


----------



## skyviewmark1

rotomike said:


> What ever happened to people saying that launching over the equator would get it in GEO much earlier then lets say D10. Seems it takes much longer. Yeah it may burn less fuel but it sure does take awhile.
> 
> Mike


I don't think it takes as long.. It all depends on the perspective of how fast versus how much fuel you want to use to get it there.. When D10 was placed, they were in more of a hurry, and may have pushed it a little harder to get in place. Now they have the luxury of time on their side, so they may be doing things a bit slower, conserving more fuel so the satellite will have a longer lifespan. Just my humble opinion.


----------



## Tiger62

As a former (now retired) "rocket scientist", let me just point out one thing...

Launching a satellite into geostationary orbit is not a "hit or miss proposition". Boeing does this with much professionalism and tons of planning. It's NOT a guy sitting at a console with a joy-stick and BURN ON-OFF switch, "flying by the seat of his pants"! The adjustments of the orbit may be puzzling to "the man on the street", but rest assured, NOTHING is done hap-hazardly! The Boeing guys (and gals) know what they're doing. Just relax...It'll get there when they PLANNED for it to get there.


----------



## Sixto

Question for a rocket scientist ...

The data for D10, Spaceway-1, and D11 shows a process where they first get each satellite to a point where the (low+high)/2 is approximately 35,500-35,800km.

Spaceway-1 got there at day#16, with a low of 26063.

D10 got there at day#11, with a low of 34206.

And now D11 got there at day#24, with a low of 30007.

For all three they then slowly raised the low and lowered the high ... until the low, mid, and high are all at 35,786.

The lower the low at the start affects how long it takes, with a couple hundred km change every day or so.

Question: what causes the low/high decrease each day? what causes the change? some orbital dynamic or some very minor burn? 

It just appears (from all of the data) that they first get circular around that 35,500-35,800 mid-point and then cautiously tweak the low and the high until they're finally all the same. It must be very efficient to do it that way. The only difference is the start point (or delta between the low and the high).


----------



## Indiana627

Tiger62 said:


> As a former (now retired) "rocket scientist", let me just point out one thing...
> 
> Launching a satellite into geostationary orbit is not a "hit or miss proposition". Boeing does this with much professionalism and tons of planning. It's NOT a guy sitting at a console with a joy-stick and BURN ON-OFF switch, "flying by the seat of his pants"! The adjustments of the orbit may be puzzling to "the man on the street", but rest assured, NOTHING is done hap-hazardly! The Boeing guys (and gals) know what they're doing. Just relax...It'll get there when they PLANNED for it to get there.


So what you're saying is launching a satellite "ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end" D11's life real quick wouldn't it?


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Been playing around with the data from earlier (D10/D11/Spaceway-1) in a spreadsheet.


Now that's a comparison!


----------



## Sixto

Have added the D10/Spaceway-1/D10 comparison to post#2 for safe keeping and updating ... not easy to gather the data so figured would put it in a safe convenient place. The format should be easy for others to pull into any program for any analysis and comment.


----------



## lwilli201

Thanks Sixto. Great comparison. SP-1 - 105 days :eek2: . Directv seems to be a little more conservative and Charlie. I wonder if it is true that Charlie wants to buy AMC-14. Now that is flying by the seat of your pants, in a business sense. He sure is not thinking like a rocket scientist.


----------



## Ed Campbell

lwilli201 said:


> Thanks Sixto. Great comparison. SP-1 - 105 days :eek2: . Directv seems to be a little more conservative and Charlie. I wonder if it is true that Charlie wants to buy AMC-14. Now that is flying by the seat of your pants, in a business sense. He sure is not thinking like a rocket scientist.


The latest scuttlebutt I've heard has SES opting for an All-American approach. Sell it to the government and let the Feds bail 'em out.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto, as a nitpick  - would be easy to read if you post in format day # number, instead of confusing day minus number:

_At day-45, Spaceway-1 was at 29 272 x 42 297 km
At day-65 (+20 days), it was at 31 988 x 39 539 km_

*At day#45, Spaceway-1 was at 29 272 x 42 297 km
At day#65 (+20 days), it was at 31 988 x 39 539 km*

Or D+16 like launchers use to.

Other remark - on that high altitude just waiting between burns will not benefit for preserve propellant.
Perhaps made it worst, if Moon or Sun will disturb the sat position.


----------



## smiddy

Indiana627 said:


> So what you're saying is launching a satellite "ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end" D11's life real quick wouldn't it?


Nice one Harrison, nice one!


----------



## lwilli201

Ed Campbell said:


> The latest scuttlebutt I've heard has SES opting for an All-American approach. Sell it to the government and let the Feds bail 'em out.


I think it is the insurance company that wants to be bailed out. They will take the highest bid, you can bet on that. It will depend on how high Charlie will go. Since SES has already declared the sat a failure, it is up to the insurance company to recoup as much of the lose as possible. Charlie is looking for a bargain. With DOD in the picture, a big monkey wrench has been thrown into Charlie's plans.


----------



## Sixto

No new DirecTV satellite news with the usual Friday publish ...

SAT-00517: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-281773A1.pdf

SAT-00518: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-962A1.pdf


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto, as a nitpick  - would be easy to read if you post in format day # number, instead of confusing day minus number:
> 
> _At day-45, Spaceway-1 was at 29 272 x 42 297 km
> At day-65 (+20 days), it was at 31 988 x 39 539 km_
> 
> *At day#45, Spaceway-1 was at 29 272 x 42 297 km
> At day#65 (+20 days), it was at 31 988 x 39 539 km*
> 
> Or D+16 like launchers use to.
> 
> Other remark - on that high altitude just waiting between burns will not benefit for preserve propellant.
> Perhaps made it worst, if Moon or Sun will disturb the sat position.


Sure. Changed the post from "day-xx" to "day#xx".

Also changed the heading in the comparison to "Day#" instead of just "Day".

Any and all feedback always appreciated.


----------



## Indiana627

smiddy said:


> Nice one Harrison, nice one!


My sense of humor usually goes above or below (most likely below) people around here. Glad to see someone gets a kick out of it!


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 50 ... +125km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE50)
1 32729U 08013A   08116.70000000 -.00000298  00000-0  00000+0 0   505
2 32729 000.1190 276.0090 0944373 285.5310 197.4020 01.00025884   498

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-25-2008 16:48:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination		0.119
RA of A. Node		276.009
Eccentricity		0.0944373
Argument of Perigee	285.531
Revs per day		1.00025884
Period			23h 59m 37s (1439.62 min)
Semi-major axis		42 234 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 867 x 39 844 km[/B]
Element number / age	50 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) [B]31,867 x 39,844 km[/B] (+24.0 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) 31,742 x 39,996 km (+3.0 hours,  at 36.0 days)
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) 31,660 x 39,991 km (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days)
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) 31,369 x 40,366 km (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days)
TLE#46 (04-21-2008 21:09:43) 31,309 x 40,411 km (+18.5 hours, at 33.2 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Been playing around with the data from earlier (D10/D11/Spaceway-1) in a spreadsheet.
> 
> Very, very interesting.
> 
> With all three, once the satellite gets to a center point of about 35800km: (low+high)/2 ... it then drifts to it's final location with a few hundred km change per day.
> 
> The wider the distance between the low and the high at the start, when the center is at 35800, the longer it takes.
> 
> Current guess is we're 30-40 days away from geostationary, unless they do something different, but it certainly looks very similar to D10 & Spaceway-1, just a different start point for the low.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]Sp-1[/B]	[B]D11[/B]	[B]D11	D11
> [U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U][/B]
> 1	414	35813	18114	262	34097	17180	243	36067	18155
> 2	4919	35792	20356
> 3	4921	36526	20724	1061	34311	17686
> 4	4923	37127	21025	1058	34315	17687	463	36484	18474
> 6	8277	37105	22691	1067	37418	19243	463	38996	19730
> [snip]


Excellent work. Thanks for compiling all that historical data into one table. With all that data in front of me, I'm even more confident in my earlier prediction that D11 wouldn't be parked until the end of May or later, and I see that you and I are in concurrence based on your new prediction of 30-40 more days.


----------



## DCappy

Been playing with my “Guesstimater” spreadsheet and kind of agreed with Sixto’s post #1711. 

“With all three, once the satellite gets to a center point of about 35800km: (low+high)/2… it then drifts to it’s final location with a few hundred km change per day.”

I get a lower number in the case of D11, at TLE#31 of 35425km. When they reached TLE#22 at 35425km, they did nothing for 8 TLEs or 4.5 days. Then at TLE#31 they made a bump of 100km(Perigee) and have been going slow ever since.

I noticed that of the 20 TLEs I use in my “Guesstimater”, the last 7 have accelerated (160%) over the average of the 20 TLEs. If they accelerated if once they can do it again.

Using all 20 TLEs, guess is:
Perigee will reach target in 35 days.
Apogee will reach target in 61 days.

Using only the last 7 TLEs, guess is:
Perigee will reach target in 22 days.
Apogee will reach target in 24 days.

This includes TLE#50. Target being 35,786km.

Thanks to Sixto, LameLefty and others for making my headache and teaching me something.


----------



## Brewsta

I think one thing that's been made very clear from all of this --

DirecTV was obviously in a hurry to get DirecTV-10 "parked" and ready to broadcast as soon as possible. For all of those that complained about how long it took for D10 to start broadcasts, it was lightning quick compared to the D11 parking process.

It has been speculated many times, but has become more and more abundantly clear that DirecTV doesn't feel a need to rush D11 like they did D10.


----------



## Iwanthd

No one is nipping at their heels so to speak...


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Question for a rocket scientist ...
> 
> The data for D10, Spaceway-1, and D11 shows a process where they first get each satellite to a point where the (low+high)/2 is approximately 35,500-35,800km.
> 
> Spaceway-1 got there at day#16, with a low of 26063.
> 
> D10 got there at day#11, with a low of 34206.
> 
> And now D11 got there at day#24, with a low of 30007.
> 
> For all three they then slowly raised the low and lowered the high ... until the low, mid, and high are all at 35,786.
> 
> The lower the low at the start affects how long it takes, with a couple hundred km change every day or so.
> 
> Question: what causes the low/high decrease each day? what causes the change? some orbital dynamic or some very minor burn?
> 
> It just appears (from all of the data) that they first get circular around that 35,500-35,800 mid-point and then cautiously tweak the low and the high until they're finally all the same. It must be very efficient to do it that way. The only difference is the start point (or delta between the low and the high).


Still curious to the answer ... what causes the perigee to raise and the apogee to lower by 100-300km at every TLE? some normal orbital dynamic where it naturally happens? or some man-made very minor efficient burn every orbit?


----------



## bakers12

Sixto said:


> Still curious to the answer ... what causes the perigee to raise and the apogee to lower by 100-300km at every TLE? some normal orbital dynamic where it naturally happens? or some man-made very minor efficient burn every orbit?


Definitely, man-made burns. Left on its own, the satellite's TLEs aren't going to change this much in a day or so.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Still curious to the answer ... what causes the perigee to raise and the apogee to lower by 100-300km at every TLE? some normal orbital dynamic where it naturally happens? or some man-made very minor efficient burn every orbit?


It's man-made, absent small effects of the moon and Sun, as P Smith pointed out up-thread.


----------



## P Smith

I would say - those burns made between apogee and perigee positions.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> It's man-made, absent small effects of the moon and Sun, as P Smith pointed out up-thread.


So looks like little burns every single day are better then one or two significant burns to move a few thousand km quickly?


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> So looks like little burns every single day are better then one or two significant burns to move a few thousand km quickly?


Little burns mean little chance for things to go wrong. Also, and this is just a guess on my part, little burns still generate inertia, which allow the spacecraft to keep moving even after the burn is completed. So they get some "free" motion out of it.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Little burns mean little chance for things to go wrong. Also, and this is just a guess on my part, little burns still generate inertia, which allow the spacecraft to keep moving even after the burn is completed. So they get some "free" motion out of it.


Yep, that's what I was trying to figure out.

Thought it might be analogous to gas mileage where a slow gradual raise to velocity with no need to brake is much more efficient then slamming on the gas peddle and then slamming on the brake. Both get point-a to point-b but one is much more efficient then the other.

Might a little burn stop by itself while a bigger burn may need a start and stop burn. Just thinking this through and listening to feedback of those that may have manned the joystick in their life


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Might a little burn stop by itself while a bigger burn may need a start and stop burn.


I don't know nearly enough about physics to know if it would work that way.


----------



## grump

Sixto said:


> Might a little burn stop by itself while a bigger burn may need a start and stop burn.


I've gotta guess that without the friction of the atmosphere, the answer is a big no.

I've never manned the stick, though.


----------



## dms1

Jeremy W said:


> I don't know nearly enough about physics to know if it would work that way.


There is no difference. Firing the rocket motor or thrusters imparts an impulse onto the satellite which is basically equal to the force of the motor multiplied by the time it is fired for. The force in turn causes an acceleration as determined by Newton's second law F = ma, but remembering that 'm' is not constant since fuel is being used up.

The most likely reason for lots of small burns instead of few big ones is that there will always be an element of uncertainty that needs to be addressed by monitoring the effect and compensating as often as possible. For example, the satellite may be oriented slightly wrong at the start of a burn. Such an error from ideal will be spotted after the burn, but if the burn was a long one then you may be way off from where you wanted to be at that point. There may also be technical reasons, such as thermal issues, that the motor and thrusters can't be activated for more than a certain time.


----------



## dms1

grump said:


> I've gotta guess that without the friction of the atmosphere, the answer is a big no.
> 
> I've never manned the stick, though.


Correct. Quite a few posters here have fallen into the trap of thinking in terms of a ground-based system in which friction and air resistance are big factors.


----------



## Jeremy W

dms1 said:


> The most likely reason for lots of small burns instead of few big ones is that there will always be an element of uncertainty that needs to be addressed by monitoring the effect and compensating as often as possible.


So


Jeremy W said:


> Little burns mean little chance for things to go wrong.


was correct! +1 for me!


----------



## jazzyjez

Sixto said:


> ...Thought it might be analogous to gas mileage where a slow gradual raise to velocity with no need to brake is much more efficient then slamming on the gas peddle and then slamming on the brake. Both get point-a to point-b but one is much more efficient then the other...


Absolutely, if you had unlimited fuel for your starship, the quickest way to get to Alpha Centauri would be to keep burning at full acceleration until you got to the half-way point, then do a 180 and keep burning at full deceleration until you reached your new sun! But, definitely not the most economic way, especially with the price of gas (Xenon, that is) being what it is now!


----------



## cartrivision

P Smith said:


> I would say - those burns made between apogee and perigee positions.


That would be my guess too. If you notice, the orientation of the ellipse has changed slightly, which I think also suggests burns at places other than apogee or perigee, or it might be the result of a burn whose thrust vector is not parallel to the satellites velocity.


----------



## bobnielsen

If they decided there was some pressing need to get Directv 11 into position quickly, they still have that option (at the cost of additional fuel usage).


----------



## kw2957

So just for clarification, the majority of you guys think D11 will be operational in about 30-40 days?? When do you think some new HD channels will begin to be beamed down?


----------



## Tom Robertson

kw2957 said:


> So just for clarification, the majority of you guys think D11 will be operational in about 30-40 days?? When do you think some new HD channels will begin to be beamed down?


Even tho I do not have any hard information to back this up, I do believe DIRECTV actually has a tiny bit of room for more HD even now. Perhaps some HD locals are waiting for D11, but I think we're waiting more for the HD channels to launch rather than D11 to be in place.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## kw2957

Tom Robertson said:


> Even tho I do not have any hard information to back this up, I do believe DIRECTV actually has a tiny bit of room for more HD even now. Perhaps some HD locals are waiting for D11, but I think we're waiting more for the HD channels to launch rather than D11 to be in place.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the quick response!


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Even tho I do not have any hard information to back this up, I do believe DIRECTV actually has a tiny bit of room for more HD even now. Perhaps some HD locals are waiting for D11, but I think we're waiting more for the HD channels to launch rather than D11 to be in place.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


HBO's MPEG4 rollout is well under way, and there are quite few existing SD HBO/MAX channels that DirecTV carries that are already available in MPEG4 HD which DirecTV is not carrying, including....

HBO2 East
HBO Siganture East
HBO Family East & West
MoreMAX East

In addition, the following channels that are not carried by DirecTV in SD are currently available from HBO in MPEG4 HD.....

HBO2 West
HBO Signature West
HBO Zone East & West
HBO Comedy East & West
MoreMAX West
ActionMAX East & West
5StarMAX East

Available June 30, 2008 in MPEG4 HD....

HBO Latino East& West
ThrillerMAX East & West
WMAX East
@MAX East
OuterMAX East

Source : http://www.homeboxoffice.com/to/HBO MPEG4 HD Launch Sequence_20080328.pdf


----------



## Sixto

grump said:


> I've gotta guess that without the friction of the atmosphere, the answer is a big no.
> 
> I've never manned the stick, though.


I thought that gravity would help with the stop.

Just give it a little tiny knudge and gravity might keep it from going off into outer space.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> The most likely reason for lots of small burns instead of few big ones is that there will always be an element of uncertainty that needs to be addressed by monitoring the effect and compensating as often as possible. For example, the satellite may be oriented slightly wrong at the start of a burn. Such an error from ideal will be spotted after the burn, but if the burn was a long one then you may be way off from where you wanted to be at that point. There may also be technical reasons, such as thermal issues, that the motor and thrusters can't be activated for more than a certain time.


Very much like this explanation. Makes sense.


----------



## Sixto

Was trying to find a trend as to the low orbit (perigee) gain per hour ... no trend that I see ...

For the last 25 TLE's ...

Edit:The more I think about this ... this isn't very scientific, I really need to look at the gain/hour during each orbit but don't have hourly data to figure that out ... worthless numbers here but will leave the post ... 


Code:


[B]TLE  
[U]SEQ[/U]     [U]Day#[/U]    [U]+Hours[/U] [U]Perigee[/U]  [U]+km[/U]    [U]km/hour[/U][/B]
25	17.8	20.7	29621	0	0.00
26	17.9	2.9	29621	0	0.00
27	18.9	23.6	29621	0	0.00
29	19.7	19.0	29622	0	0.00
30	20.8	25.8	29623	1	0.04
31	20.9	2.4	29723	100	41.86
32	21.9	23.7	29864	141	5.96
33	22.9	23.7	29861	-3	-0.13
34	23.9	23.7	30007	146	6.16
35	24.9	23.8	30245	238	9.99
37	25.9	24.3	30244	0	0.00
38	26.1	6.0	30245	1	0.17
39	26.6	12.4	30387	142	11.46
40	27.2	12.8	30507	120	9.37
41	27.7	12.4	30531	24	1.94
42	28.2	11.6	30594	63	5.42
43	29.1	22.0	30615	21	0.95
44	30.5	34.0	30883	268	7.88
45	32.4	45.1	31115	232	5.15
46	33.2	18.5	31309	194	10.49
47	34.4	30.1	31369	60	1.99
48	35.8	34.6	31660	291	8.42
49	36.0	3.0	31742	82	27.42
50	37.0	24.0	31867	125	5.21


----------



## bubbers44

Noticed the last change brought the perigee up less than than the apogee down so slowed the western drift. Maybe they are really aiming at fall for parking this bird and getting it operational. This is a commercial cost saving venture so look at the airline industry and what they do to cut costs. Fuel savings vs on time performance. They could use the extra fuel savings by taking longer to park to make it stay in position longer when at the end of it's life expectancy. Ex airline pilot take on what is happening.


----------



## bubbers44

I read a post here that when I jumped in didn't realize their background. I only read one or two posts, and formed an immediate opinion and responded without looking back through the rest of the thread. I am sorry I did that. Forgive me for not reading the thread before responding. I really am interested in the physics of how D11 gets up there and how a burn changes the orbit and when in the orbit that happens and how many times during the orbit they burn.


----------



## Sixto

bubbers44 said:


> I read a post here that when I jumped in didn't realize their background. I only read one or two posts, and formed an immediate opinion and responded without looking back through the rest of the thread. I am sorry I did that. Forgive me for not reading the thread before responding. I really am interested in the physics of how D11 gets up there and how a burn changes the orbit and when in the orbit that happens and how many times during the orbit they burn.


welcome. no problem at all.


----------



## inkahauts

bubbers44 said:


> Noticed the last change brought the perigee up less than than the apogee down so slowed the western drift. Maybe they are really aiming at fall for parking this bird and getting it operational. This is a commercial cost saving venture so look at the airline industry and what they do to cut costs. Fuel savings vs on time performance. They could use the extra fuel savings by taking longer to park to make it stay in position longer when at the end of it's life expectancy. Ex airline pilot take on what is happening.


I don't think that argument can be used here. I like it, but I don't think it holds, because there is an exact amount of fuel on board, and there is an expected lifetime for the unit, which I am sure is shorter than the actual amount of fuel on board is supposed to sustain the craft. i think this is more likely them trying to make sure that they don't waste fuel and have to spend more to get it into position if they miss the parking spot in their first attempt... This sat is expected to last more than what 10 years. I don't think they are looking at parking it slower so that it might use less fuel so it can last LONGER because of what might not be favorable economic forces in 10+ years when they commission D11's replacement...


----------



## timmac

Not only has the parking of D11 taken longer than D10, it now exceeds anyones expectations in this forum, except for the ones who somehow believe this was slated for the fall.

We are beyond the time that D11 popped up and said a few more days and you will be hearing from me.

Best guess, they ran into complications, just the same way we noticed there were complications on D10 which became known as spot beam issues. There was a noticed delay, everyone supported logical reasonings that were positive and the final result was a problem; however they worked it out.

There is a problem and we will find out later when all this is done.


----------



## bubbers44

If fuel isn't what determines life expectancy, what is? Batteries? Seems like they would keep it going as long as they could.


----------



## Sixto

timmac said:


> Not only has the parking of D11 taken longer than D10, it now exceeds anyones expectations in this forum, except for the ones who somehow believe this was slated for the fall.
> 
> We are beyond the time that D11 popped up and said a few more days and you will be hearing from me.
> 
> Best guess, they ran into complications, just the same way we noticed there were complications on D10 which became known as spot beam issues. There was a noticed delay, everyone supported logical reasonings that were positive and the final result was a problem; however they worked it out.
> 
> There is a problem and we will find out later when all this is done.


There's nothing in the TLE History that hints at any problems with D11.

It's always possible, but it simply looks like they got to the circular point around 35,800km and now they'll drift into place exactly like Spaceway-1 and D10. The only difference is the starting low point (perigee).


----------



## Sixto

There a "new" TLE# 51 but it's timestamped 20 minutes prior to #50 ... have sequenced it prior to #50.

Same orbit.


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE51)
1 32729U 08013A   08116.68526554 -.00000298 +00000-0 +00000-0 0 00511
2 32729 000.1215 274.8555 0944441 286.6745 192.0967 01.00028775000491

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-25-2008 16:26:46[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination		0.122
RA of A. Node		274.856
Eccentricity		0.0944441
Argument of Perigee	286.675
Revs per day		1.00028775
Period			23h 59m 35s (1439.58 min)
Semi-major axis		42 233 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]31 866 x 39 844 km[/B]
Element number / age	0051 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) [B]31,867 x 39,844 km[/B] (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#51 (04-25-2008 16:26:46) 31,866 x 39,844 km (+23.6 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) 31,742 x 39,996 km (+ 3.0 hours, at 36.0 days)
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) 31,660 x 39,991 km (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days)
TLE#47 (04-23-2008 03:14:51) 31,369 x 40,366 km (+30.1 hours, at 34.4 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> If fuel isn't what determines life expectancy, what is? Batteries? Seems like they would keep it going as long as they could.


Who says fuel doesn't determine life expectancy?

The satellite has two separate propulsion systems. The first is the chemical motor which is used for gross positioning such as the process of moving from GTO to GSO which is currently underway. The second is the XIPS system which is used both for positioning and for more subtle movements, in particular the life-time station keeping needed to keep the satellite in place and pointing in the right direction. It is the Xenon supplies used by this that will be the major factor in determining life expectancy.

The batteries will also be a significant factor because they will have a limited life. There is also the general MTBF (mean time before failure) of the various components that make up the satellite to consider. The satellite will have been designed with redundancy so that no single component failure will cause major functionality loss. Eventually though enough things will fail for the satellite to no longer be useful. However, the design goal will have been to make this time longer than the fuel life.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

cartrivision said:


> HBO's MPEG4 rollout is well under way, and there are quite few existing SD HBO/MAX channels that DirecTV carries that are already available in MPEG4 HD which DirecTV is not carrying, including....
> 
> HBO2 East
> HBO Siganture East
> HBO Family East & West
> MoreMAX East
> 
> In addition, the following channels that are not carried by DirecTV in SD are currently available from HBO in MPEG4 HD.....
> 
> HBO2 West
> HBO Signature West
> HBO Zone East & West
> HBO Comedy East & West
> MoreMAX West
> ActionMAX East & West
> 5StarMAX East
> 
> Available June 30, 2008 in MPEG4 HD....
> 
> HBO Latino East& West
> ThrillerMAX East & West
> WMAX East
> @MAX East
> OuterMAX East
> 
> Source : http://www.homeboxoffice.com/to/HBO MPEG4 HD Launch Sequence_20080328.pdf


D* will have to move some channels around if they want to carry all of those HBO's and keep in line with the current HBO's.


----------



## DCappy

Sixto said:


> Was trying to find a trend as to the low orbit (perigee) gain per hour ... no trend that I see ...
> 
> For the last 25 TLE's ...
> 
> Edit:The more I think about this ... this isn't very scientific, I really need to look at the gain/hour during each orbit but don't have hourly data to figure that out ... worthless numbers here but will leave the post ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> [B]TLE  [/B]
> [B][U]SEQ[/U]     [U]Day#[/U]    [U]+Hours[/U] [U]Perigee[/U]  [U]+km[/U]    [U]km/hour[/U][/B]
> 25    17.8    20.7    29621    0    0.00
> 26    17.9    2.9    29621    0    0.00
> 27    18.9    23.6    29621    0    0.00
> 29    19.7    19.0    29622    0    0.00
> 30    20.8    25.8    29623    1    0.04
> 31    20.9    2.4    29723    100    41.86
> 32    21.9    23.7    29864    141    5.96
> 33    22.9    23.7    29861    -3    -0.13
> 34    23.9    23.7    30007    146    6.16
> 35    24.9    23.8    30245    238    9.99
> 37    25.9    24.3    30244    0    0.00
> 38    26.1    6.0    30245    1    0.17
> 39    26.6    12.4    30387    142    11.46
> 40    27.2    12.8    30507    120    9.37
> 41    27.7    12.4    30531    24    1.94
> 42    28.2    11.6    30594    63    5.42
> 43    29.1    22.0    30615    21    0.95
> 44    30.5    34.0    30883    268    7.88
> 45    32.4    45.1    31115    232    5.15
> 46    33.2    18.5    31309    194    10.49
> 47    34.4    30.1    31369    60    1.99
> 48    35.8    34.6    31660    291    8.42
> 49    36.0    3.0    31742    82    27.42
> 50    37.0    24.0    31867    125    5.21


"I really need to look at the gain/hour during each orbit".
Refer: POST #2, "Code:" box.
Revs per day...1.00025884 
Period ........23h 59m 37s (1439.62 min)
Sum "Hours since last TLE" , multiple by 60(mins), divide by 1439.62, equals number of orbits.
Sum "+km", divide by "orbits" equals "Gain per orbit", divide by 1439.62, multiple by 60, equals "Gain per hour".
I ran this on an Excel Spreadsheet(see attachment). I used TLE#31 thru 50. I came up with a gain per of 5.78 for Perigee and -3.56 for Apogee(see top right corner of spreadsheet).
Don't know how accurate this. You can pick it apart and see if you can use it or give you some ideas.


----------



## bobnielsen

Unless they are maneuvering, the apogee and perigee won't change. The maneuvering probably isn't done on a fixed schedule (nor are all the burns likely to result in equal thrust), so the rate of change doesn't have a lot of meaning.


----------



## dms1

bobnielsen said:


> Unless they are maneuvering, the apogee and perigee won't change. The maneuvering probably isn't done on a fixed schedule (nor are all the burns likely to result in equal thrust), so the rate of change doesn't have a lot of meaning.


Precisely. I've not really been following the sub-thread about trying to analyze the apogee/perigee change rate, but it strikes me as a largely futile task since it is very unlikely that Boeing are conducting regularly spaced identical burns.


----------



## DCappy

To quote Sixto, Post #1753: "The more I think about this ... this isn't very scientific".

DirecTV 11 was launched from about 155 west longitude on the equator, to be parked at 99.2 west longitude. If the TLEs were released every time it reached 99.2 west longitude, or every 24 hours, or each orbit (would be best), you would have some numbers that you could work with.

But we have, what we have. Sixto and the rest of the rocket scientists want to be “Precise”, I’m a guy that’s trying to make a guess with what I have. 

My latest guess through TLE#51 is May 20th. 

They can kick it up and park it sooner and make a lot of people happy.


----------



## curt8403

DCappy said:


> To quote Sixto, Post #1753: "The more I think about this ... this isn't very scientific".
> 
> DirecTV 11 was launched from about 155 west longitude on the equator, to be parked at 99.2 west longitude. If the TLEs were released every time it reached 99.2 west longitude, or every 24 hours, or each orbit (would be best), you would have some numbers that you could work with.
> 
> But we have, what we have. Sixto and the rest of the rocket scientists want to be "Precise", I'm a guy that's trying to make a guess with what I have.
> 
> My latest guess through TLE#51 is May 20th.
> 
> They can kick it up and park it sooner and make a lot of people happy.


there are two meanings to kick, and I would rather hear the news that it parked on May 20th than that they tried early, and that it kicked "The Bucket"


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> To quote Sixto, Post #1753: ...


What I was trying to figure out was whether there was any consistency to the amount of km gain during each specific orbit but without the perigee at the beginning and end of each orbit that's difficult to figure out ... but posted the analysis anyway.


----------



## azarby

DCappy said:


> To quote Sixto, Post #1753: "The more I think about this ... this isn't very scientific".
> 
> DirecTV 11 was launched from about 155 west longitude on the equator, to be parked at 99.2 west longitude. If the TLEs were released every time it reached 99.2 west longitude, or every 24 hours, or each orbit (would be best), you would have some numbers that you could work with.
> 
> But we have, what we have. Sixto and the rest of the rocket scientists want to be "Precise", I'm a guy that's trying to make a guess with what I have.
> 
> My latest guess through TLE#51 is May 20th.
> 
> They can kick it up and park it sooner and make a lot of people happy.


They (Boeing) could care less about making us happy. They just need to make DTV happy as they are the ones that pay the bills.

bob


----------



## cartrivision

theratpatrol said:


> D* will have to move some channels around if they want to carry all of those HBO's and keep in line with the current HBO's.


I'd think it would be fine to just add only the east coast feeds of all the additional HD HBO/MAX channels that aren't carried yet. That would raise the number of HBO/MAX channels from 10 in SD (7 unique not counting west coast duplicates) to 17 in HD (15 unique not counting west coast duplicates) and would fit nicely into channel 501 through 517 which are all either HBO, MAX, or unused channels now, while doubling the number of unique HBO and MAX channels on DirecTV.


----------



## tuff bob

Here's kind of a fun video I found ... it shows the satellite operator SES (owners of AMC-14 but irrelevant here) bringing in the Astra 1KR satellite to its final geostationary position with 6? other colocated satellites.

Also you'lll see Astra 1B cross from top to bottom on the right outside of the target area. IIRC Astra 1B was inclined by only about 2 degrees.


----------



## Steve615

tuff bob said:


> Here's kind of a fun video I found ... it shows the satellite operator SES (owners of AMC-14 but irrelevant here) bringing in the Astra 1KR satellite to its final geostationary position with 6? other colocated satellites.
> 
> Also you'lll see Astra 1B cross from top to bottom on the right outside of the target area. IIRC Astra 1B was inclined by only about 2 degrees.


Here is another pretty neat video (5 minutes,5 seconds in length) about satellite launches.


----------



## bubbers44

dms1 said:



> Who says fuel doesn't determine life expectancy?
> 
> The satellite has two separate propulsion systems. The first is the chemical motor which is used for gross positioning such as the process of moving from GTO to GSO which is currently underway. The second is the XIPS system which is used both for positioning and for more subtle movements, in particular the life-time station keeping needed to keep the satellite in place and pointing in the right direction. It is the Xenon supplies used by this that will be the major factor in determining life expectancy.
> 
> The batteries will also be a significant factor because they will have a limited life. There is also the general MTBF (mean time before failure) of the various components that make up the satellite to consider. The satellite will have been designed with redundancy so that no single component failure will cause major functionality loss. Eventually though enough things will fail for the satellite to no longer be useful. However, the design goal will have been to make this time longer than the fuel life.


Thanks for the info, dms1. I didn't know about the XIPS system.


----------



## bubbers44

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html

XIPS info


----------



## grump

bubbers44 said:


> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html
> 
> XIPS info


Thanks Bubbers44. That page is full of really good stuff.


----------



## HoTat2

tuff bob said:


> Here's kind of a fun video I found ... it shows the satellite operator SES (owners of AMC-14 but irrelevant here) bringing in the Astra 1KR satellite to its final geostationary position with 6? other colocated satellites.
> 
> Also you'lll see Astra 1B cross from top to bottom on the right outside of the target area. IIRC Astra 1B was inclined by only about 2 degrees.


Hey, pretty cool stuff as well;

But I'm a little confused. Why the apparent two dimensional movements of the Astra satellites between exposures, when they are supposedly "geostationary?" Could this be due to the "co-location" scheme of placing each of the satellites in shallow though slightly different inclinations to form this "constellation" of sorts?


----------



## ziltomil

HoTat2 said:


> Hey, pretty cool stuff as well;
> 
> But I'm a little confused. Why the apparent two dimensional movements of the Astra satellites between exposures, when they are supposedly "geostationary?" Could this be due to the "co-location" scheme of placing each of the satellites in shallow though slightly different inclinations to form this "constellation" of sorts?


They move around bcause no geostationary satellite is perfectly geostationary. They are going to move north and south because the inclination isn't exactly 0degrees to the equator, they rock back and forth because their apogee and perigee can have a difference of kilometers. Their total motion should resemble a circle or a figure-8.


----------



## carl6

ziltomil said:


> They move around bcause no geostationary satellite is perfectly geostationary. They are going to move north and south because the inclination isn't exactly 0degrees to the equator, they rock back and forth because their apogee and perigee can have a difference of kilometers. Their total motion should resemble a circle or a figure-8.


I knew that the geostationary satellites moved in an approximate figure 8 pattern relative to viewing from earth. Now I know why. This is an ongoing learning experience.

Carl


----------



## dduensing

carl6 said:


> I knew that the geostationary satellites moved in an approximate figure 8 pattern relative to viewing from earth. Now I know why. This is an ongoing learning experience.
> 
> Carl


So does the sun, from the earth's perspective, but its inclination is much larger.
Check out the photo on wikipedia or google search analemma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemma


----------



## Ken984

new tle

1 32729U 08013A 08119.45814799 -.00000275 00000-0 00000+0 0 525
2 32729 000.1385 275.3461 0843454 286.6168 109.5306 00.99992041 518


----------



## syphix

Ken984 said:


> new tle
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08119.45814799 -.00000275 00000-0 00000+0 0 525
> 2 32729 000.1385 275.3461 0843454 286.6168 109.5306 00.99992041 518


Perigree x Apogee: 32,302 x 39,428 km
Eccentricity: 0.0843454


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> new tle
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A 08119.45814799 -.00000275 00000-0 00000+0 0 525
> 2 32729 000.1385 275.3461 0843454 286.6168 109.5306 00.99992041 518


Damn, its been an hour and none of our experts have done anything with this one?


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Damn, its been an hour and none of our experts have done anything with this one?


+435km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE52)
1 32729U 08013A   08119.45814799 -.00000275  00000-0  00000+0 0   525
2 32729 000.1385 275.3461 0843454 286.6168 109.5306 00.99992041   518

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-28-2008 10:59:43[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	51
Inclination		0.139
RA of A. Node		275.346
Eccentricity		0.0843454
Argument of Perigee	286.617
Revs per day		0.99992041
Period			24h 00m 06s (1440.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 243 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 302 x 39 428 km[/B]
Element number / age	52 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) [B]32,302 x 39,428 km[/B] (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days)
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#51 (04-25-2008 16:26:46) 31,866 x 39,844 km (+23.6 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) 31,742 x 39,996 km (+ 3.0 hours, at 36.0 days)
TLE#48 (04-24-2008 13:48:32) 31,660 x 39,991 km (+34.6 hours, at 35.8 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## dms1

Increase in perigee is slightly more than decrease in apogee too, which accelerates the west-ward drift a little.


----------



## Ed Campbell

My heart can't stand the excitement. :grin:


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> Increase in perigee is slightly more than decrease in apogee too, which accelerates the west-ward drift a little.


Yep, +435km perigee, -416km apogee.

For 35,785km perigee, at current rate of 6-7km/hour (average over time), best guess is 22-24 days. Average last few days is 6.6km/hour, last 16 day average is 6.0km/hour.

For 35,785km perigee, at Spaceway-1 actual rate, best guess is 30-35 days. Spaceway-1 was at 32,237km at day#67, got there at day#97, and then tweaked for a week. We're at similar 32,302km now (day#39.7).

Put the two together and we're there best case in 22 days, worst case 35 days.

Assuming nothing else changes 

PS: Post#2 has the backup D10/Spaceway-1 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

A little more comparison ...

Spaceway-1 was at 29,769km perigee on day#48 and 32,237km perigee on day#67. A plus 2,468km over 19days.

D11 was at a similar 29,723km perigee on day#21 and a similar 32,302km perigee on day#40 (today). A plus 2,579km over 19 days.

Very similar over 19 days, the past 19 days for D11.

And Spaceway-1 then took another 30 days to 35,784km perigee, followed by a week of tweaking.

Looks like they're following the same path. For now. A change is always possible.

Post#2 has the backup D10/Spaceway-1 comparison.


----------



## DCappy

dms1 quote: “Increase in perigee is slightly more than decrease in apogee too, which accelerates the west-ward drift a little“.

Question: Was this the plan all along, or a reaction to raising it’s Apogee to 41,363km early on (TLE#20)?

NOT an expert, that’s for the rocket scientists to figure out.

I plugged the Sixto’s numbers in my “Guesstimater” spreadsheet and still come up with May 20th.

Today’s average gain per orbit 158.42km decreased from 158.69km. That's perigee.


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> I plugged the Sixto's numbers in my "Guesstimater" spreadsheet and still come up with May 20th ...


Yep, 22-24 days if projecting D11 forward or 30-35 days if using Spaceway-1 as a base.


----------



## dms1

DCappy said:


> dms1 quote: "Increase in perigee is slightly more than decrease in apogee too, which accelerates the west-ward drift a little".
> 
> Question: Was this the plan all along, or a reaction to raising it's Apogee to 41,363km early on (TLE#20)?


When they initially adjusted the orbit such that the satellite appeared to oscillate rather than orbit as seen from the Earth, there was a slow (five degrees per day) eastward drift, meaning that it quickly got into a position where the oscillation didn't include the target location. Therefore, it was always going to be necessary to change to a westward drift (or wait a long time to go right round), and this is achieved by raising the average height above GSO level, which can be done by increasing the perigee by more than the apogee is decreased.

Essentially, what is happening is that the satellite is homing into a fixed longitude by slowly reducing the range of oscillation. Exactly how this is done (the order of apogee drops vs. perigee raises) determines what the final location is.


----------



## EaglePC

any 1080p channels after d11 gets there ?


----------



## Tom_S

EaglePC said:


> any 1080p channels after d11 gets there ?


No.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

EaglePC said:


> any 1080p channels after d11 gets there ?


If and that is a big if we ever see 1080p channels it will not be for a very long time (probably 5+ years).


----------



## chodemickey

I'm guessing we'll never see 1080p, as long as you have a 1080p TV, it will display 1080i in 1080p.


----------



## tcusta00

chodemickey said:


> I'm guessing we'll never see 1080p, as long as you have a 1080p TV, it will display 1080i in 1080p.


I think you mean that if you have a TV capable of 1080p it doesn't matter, as the best that current DirecTV receivers output is 1080i.


----------



## chodemickey

Actually what I meant is that there is no need to broadcast anything 1080p since a TV that "is" 1080p will display a 1080i image progressively.


----------



## curt8403

chodemickey said:


> I'm guessing we'll never see 1080p, as long as you have a 1080p TV, it will display 1080i in 1080p.


wowsers, 1080 is 1080 P just means progressive (start at the top and go down, filling in each line, ) I is interlaced (Start at the top, fill in first then 3rd line etc then go back and do 2nd and 4th line etc) I gets you a pic faster, but is slower to change the image.


----------



## chodemickey

That was my point exactly curt8403


----------



## evan_s

While it's really a topic for a different thread I could see 24p being used for movies since it's there native frame rate usually and would actually use up less bandwidth.


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> When they initially adjusted the orbit such that the satellite appeared to oscillate rather than orbit as seen from the Earth, there was a slow (five degrees per day) eastward drift, meaning that it quickly got into a position where the oscillation didn't include the target location. Therefore, it was always going to be necessary to change to a westward drift (or wait a long time to go right round), and this is achieved by raising the average height above GSO level, which can be done by increasing the perigee by more than the apogee is decreased.
> 
> Essentially, what is happening is that the satellite is homing into a fixed longitude by slowly reducing the range of oscillation. Exactly how this is done (the order of apogee drops vs. perigee raises) determines what the final location is.


So to visualize D11's ground track for its current orbit. Is a majority westward movement of the satellite with a comparatively brief eastward movement as the satellite speeds up slightly through its perigee phase. Quickly followed by a resumption of its dominant westward progression as it slows down back toward apogee?


----------



## afulkerson

Sixto said:


> Yep, +435km perigee, -416km apogee.
> 
> For 35,785km perigee, at current rate of 6-7km/hour (average over time), best guess is 22-24 days. Average last few days is 6.6km/hour, last 16 day average is 6.0km/hour.
> 
> For 35,785km perigee, at Spaceway-1 actual rate, best guess is 30-35 days. Spaceway-1 was at 32,237km at day#67, got there at day#97, and then tweaked for a week. We're at similar 32,302km now (day#39.7).
> 
> Put the two together and we're there best case in 22 days, worst case 35 days.
> 
> Assuming nothing else changes
> 
> PS: Post#2 has the backup D10/Spaceway-1 comparison.


Quick question
How come the above listing for perigee and apogee are different from SPACETRACK.ORG data that I copied just now:

SATCAT Data
Catalog Number Common Name International Designator Country (Key) Launch Date Launch Site (Key) Decay Date Period Incl. Apogee Perigee RCS Latest Data 
31862 DIRECTV 10 2007-032A US 2007-07-07 TTMTR 1436.1 0.06 35787 35786 19.5066 Last Elset 
32729 DIRECTV 11 2008-013A US 2008-03-19 SEAL 1440.63 0.13 40382 31368 13.6586 Last Elset 
____________________________________________ ________apogee/perigee


----------



## jdspencer

I guess this thread is a good place to ask a related question about D11. Most discussion right now relates to its moving into position and when it is expected to get into its final spot. I'm sure DirecTV is doing preliminary testing of the satellite, so I ask if anyone can explain exactly what those tests are and what testing will need to be done once it's in position. Inquiring hard head here needs to know.


----------



## Tom Robertson

jdspencer said:


> I guess this thread is a good place to ask a related question about D11. Most discussion right now relates to its moving into position and when it is expected to get into its final spot. I'm sure DirecTV is doing preliminary testing of the satellite, so I ask if anyone can explain exactly what those tests are and what testing will need to be done once it's in position. Inquiring hard head here needs to know.


At this stage, Boeing and DIRECTV are testing batteries, communications, possibly the solar panels, control, probably some transponder testing and some uplink testing.

Presumably when it gets into final parking, they will do some more full power testing and fine tuning of the reflectors/transponders. As well as testing the earth stations that communicate with the satellite.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

afulkerson said:


> Quick question. How come the above listing for perigee and apogee are different from SPACETRACK.ORG data that I copied just now:


Don't know.

For TLE#52, Orbitron is 32,302 x 39,428 km.

Also, Heavens-Above, shows the same 32,302 x 39,428 km. http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT

All my comparison numbers for all satellites is Orbitron.


----------



## afulkerson

Sixto said:


> Don't know.
> 
> For TLE#52, Orbitron is 32,302 x 39,428 km.
> 
> Also, Heavens-Above, shows the same 32,302 x 39,428 km. http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=EDT
> 
> All my comparison numbers for all satellites is Orbitron.


I suppose that is one of the mysteries of the Universe, two different ways of looking at the same data and getting two different answers, or is that the way that bean counters work to get the figures to say what they want. :lol: :lol: :icon_lol: :beatdeadhorse: :backtotop


----------



## jdspencer

Tom Robertson said:


> At this stage, Boeing and DIRECTV are testing batteries, communications, possibly the solar panels, control, probably some transponder testing and some uplink testing.
> 
> Presumably when it gets into final parking, they will do some more full power testing and fine tuning of the reflectors/transponders. As well as testing the earth stations that communicate with the satellite.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks. Any test reports available?


----------



## wearsch

jdspencer said:


> Thanks. Any test reports available?


I'm mainly a lurker here, but I don't think test reports are made public. If they were it would be like nerd porn for this group. :eek2:


----------



## PoitNarf

wearsch said:


> I'm mainly a lurker here, but I don't think test reports are made public. If they were it would be like nerd porn for this group. :eek2:


Yep, there's really no reason for them to release such information. Even if there is a big enough problem that they have to make an announcement, like the spotbeam issues that D10 had, you won't get much technical detail at all about the issue.


----------



## dms1

wearsch said:


> If they were it would be like nerd porn for this group. :eek2:


 Who are you calling a nerd?


----------



## curt8403

dms1 said:


> Who are you calling a nerd?


ya, we are geeks


----------



## bobnielsen

But we try to educate nerds.


----------



## Drew2k

Chill geeks! As used, "nerd" modified "porn", it was not used to describe the group here! :lol:


----------



## crashHD

I liked it better when it's implied meaning was "porn for nerds" than the second suggested interpretation of "porn by nerds". ick.


----------



## richall01

crashHD said:


> I liked it better when it's implied meaning was "porn for nerds" than the second suggested interpretation of "porn by nerds". ick


!:backtotop !
And now back to the news!


----------



## Indiana627

smiddy said:


> I'm holding onto the April 30th hint... :righton:





Indiana627 said:


> Me too!
> 
> At least it won't be much longer before we'll know if we're foolish or not.


Looks like we're foolish!



DIRECTV-12 said:


> D11 UPDATE!!!!
> 
> Mission nominal. Solar Panels fully deployed, full power gained. Tests continue, but going without a hitch so far.
> 
> Expecting D11 to reach parking orbit in about 10 days. I still hear that April 30th is going to be a good day.
> 
> :computer:


DIRECTV-12 - where are you? Any updates? I hope your brother is doing OK.


----------



## Tibs

Indiana627 said:


> Looks like we're foolish!
> 
> DIRECTV-12 - where are you? Any updates? I hope your brother is doing OK.


Isnt today the day DirecTV group is listed on the NASDAQ 100? Maybe that was what he meant.


----------



## curt8403

Tibs said:


> Isnt today the day DirecTV group is listed on the NASDAQ 100? Maybe that was what he meant.


Directv 12 is the posting name of someone we believe to be knowedgable about the directv sats. Directv 11 refers to the Directv 11 sat


----------



## cartrivision

Indiana627 said:


> Looks like we're foolish!
> 
> DIRECTV-12 - where are you? Any updates? I hope your brother is doing OK.


I would suggest that people stop looking to "DIRECTV-12" for updates and instead look to me, since I was first to predict that the destination arrival date would be closer to May 30th than April 30th, which now seems to be the conventional thinking of the other amateur "rocket scientists" here.


----------



## P Smith

cartrivision said:


> I would suggest that people stop looking to "DIRECTV-12" for updates and instead look to me, since I was first to predict that the destination arrival date would be closer to May 30th than April 30th, which now seems to be the conventional thinking of the other amateur "rocket scientists" here.


I have a special medal for you - just stop by - it's ready to award a "Great amateur "rocket scientists" !


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I have a special medal for you - just stop by - it's ready to give to "Great amateur "rocket scientists" !


What do you have besides attitude to give to real rocket scientists?


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> What do you have besides attitude to give to real rocket scientists?


----------



## Steve615

Tibs said:


> Isnt today the day DirecTV group is listed on the NASDAQ 100? Maybe that was what he meant.


Speaking of NASDAQ,officially it will happen tomorrow (4/30).  
More info about that at the following link.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=126782


----------



## Sixto

TLE#53 ... -17km perigee, -30 apogee ... first TLE in a long while where perigee did not rise ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE53)
1 32729U 08013A   08120.86805490 -.00000273  00000-0  00000+0 0   539
2 32729 000.0903 274.5073 0842416 287.1642 257.8409 01.00075303   532

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-29-2008 20:49:59[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	53
Inclination		0.090
RA of A. Node		274.507
Eccentricity		0.0842416
Argument of Perigee	287.164
Revs per day		1.00075303
Period			23h 58m 54s (1438.90 min)
Semi-major axis		42 220 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 285 x 39 398 km[/B]
Element number / age	53 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) [B]32,285 x 39,398 km[/B] (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days)
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days)
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#51 (04-25-2008 16:26:46) 31,866 x 39,844 km (+23.6 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#49 (04-24-2008 16:48:00) 31,742 x 39,996 km (+ 3.0 hours, at 36.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## dreadlk

Sorry if this was asked before but I am wondering what channels are expected to be put up on 99C ? It looks like Direct already has up all the Conus HD channels that are available now, and they still have more room left on 103C for channels like BBChd


----------



## Tom Robertson

dreadlk said:


> Sorry if this was asked before but I am wondering what channels are expected to be put up on 99C ? It looks like Direct already has up all the Conus HD channels that are available now, and they still have more room left on 103C for channels like BBChd


Lots of speculation but basically as soon as more HD launches we'll see it on D11. Also more HD locals.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> What do you have besides attitude to give to real rocket scientists?


A gyroscope from M-150 warhead. :eek2:


----------



## DCappy

“UUuuugggghhhh!!!!” to quote Charlie Brown as Lucy pulls the football out of the way. I feel better now.

New guesstimate for day 41.

After 33.8 hours (1.41 days) we’ve had a decrease in Perigee.

Apogee still needs to decrease 3,612 km and the Perigee needs to increase 3,484km.

The average gain per orbit has dropped to 138.50km from 158.42km.

New guess is 26 more days or Saturday, May 24. That’s up from the last estimate of Wednesday, May 20.


----------



## CKNAV

dreadlk said:


> Sorry if this was asked before but I am wondering what channels are expected to be put up on 99C ? It looks like Direct already has up all the Conus HD channels that are available now, and they still have more room left on 103C for channels like BBChd


No they do not have all the conus HD channels. They do not have Outdoor channel HD, Travel Channel HD, ABC Family HD, rest of HBO and Cinemax.
There are few more.

You will never see BBCHD. If anything it will be BBC America HD.


----------



## seern

I have not been seeing mention of MSNBC HD. It should be on the air before the end of 08.


----------



## Sixto

seern said:


> I have not been seeing mention of MSNBC HD. It should be on the air before the end of 08.


D11 will get it all. Lots of other threads with all the guesses.


----------



## smiddy

Indiana627 said:


> Looks like we're foolish!
> 
> DIRECTV-12 - where are you? Any updates? I hope your brother is doing OK.


I don't think so, perhaps too hopeful based on a post from a fictitious character. But then again, I've yet to run any testing on my signals to see. I will here in a minute via my Slingbox Pro.


----------



## smiddy

BTW, today ain't over yet folks! Wait until tomorrow morning...then whine. 

EDIT: I'm currently in the Eastern Time Zone, and updated my laptop to such, but it says I posted 2 hours ago, weird...I'm currently on Wednesday 4/30/2008 at 12:53.


----------



## bobnielsen

smiddy said:


> BTW, today ain't over yet folks! Wait until tomorrow morning...then whine.
> 
> EDIT: I'm currently in the Eastern Time Zone, and updated my laptop to such, but it says I posted 2 hours ago, weird...I'm currently on Wednesday 4/30/2008 at 12:53.


Go to the "User CP" and edit Options to change what the forum thinks is your time zone.


----------



## Ken984

new tle



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08121.61022620 -.00000266  00000-0  00000+0 0   542
2 32729 000.1197 274.9154 0768275 286.6210 164.6048 01.00074330   541


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> new tle
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08121.61022620 -.00000266  00000-0  00000+0 0   542
> 2 32729 000.1197 274.9154 0768275 286.6210 164.6048 01.00074330   541


Name	#32729
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	04/30/2008 14:38:43
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination	0.120
RA of A. Node	274.915
Eccentricity	0.0768275
Argument of Perigee	286.621
Revs per day	1.00074330
Period	23h 58m 55s (1438.92 min)
Semi-major axis 42 220 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 598 x 39 086 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	164.605
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	54 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> new tle ...


Yep, #54 ... +313km perigee (low), -312km apogee (high)



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE54)
1 32729U 08013A   08121.61022620 -.00000266  00000-0  00000+0 0   542
2 32729 000.1197 274.9154 0768275 286.6210 164.6048 01.00074330   541

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-30-2008 14:38:43[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination		0.120
RA of A. Node		274.915
Eccentricity		0.0768275
Argument of Perigee	286.621
Revs per day		1.00074330
Period			23h 58m 55s (1438.92 min)
Semi-major axis		42 220 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 598 x 39 086 km[/B]
Element number / age	54 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) [B]32 598 x 39 086 km[/B] (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days)
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days)
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days)
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days)
TLE#51 (04-25-2008 16:26:46) 31,866 x 39,844 km (+23.6 hours, at 37.0 days)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## dreadlk

Thanks.



Tom Robertson said:


> Lots of speculation but basically as soon as more HD launches we'll see it on D11. Also more HD locals.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## machavez00

is it moving to it final spot?


----------



## cartrivision

machavez00 said:


> is it moving to it final spot?


Yes.... slowly.


----------



## jefbal99

cartrivision said:


> Yes.... slowly.


think molasses on a cold wintery morning


----------



## sbl

jefbal99 said:


> think molasses on a cold wintery morning


What, like January 15, 1919 in Boston?


----------



## DCappy

New guesstimate to park DirecTV 11, day 42.

Apogee decreased 312km and has 3,300 km to go.
Perigee increased 313km and has 3,188km to go.

Average Apogee Decrease per Orbit is 154.62km
Average Perigee Increased per Orbit is 154.93km

New guess is 21 more days or Monday, May 19.

Previous guesses are:
TLE# - Guess
51 - 25 days - Tue. May 20
52 - 23 days - Tue. May 20
53 - 26 days - Sat. May 24


----------



## ddobson

I am not a rocket guy but the slower it moves, less fuel it takes to stop it when it gets there?

That would be my guess anyway. Fuel is valuable to the longevity of the spacecraft. There are not refueling stations up there..... yet

But with the price of fuel and the way its going, might be profitable for Shell to put a station up there to refill the satellites... :lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

Basically, yes. 

I don't think they pump hydrazine and xenon quite the same way


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> New guesstimate to park DirecTV 11, day 42.
> 
> Apogee decreased 312km and has 3,210 km to go.
> Perigee increased 313km and has 3,278km to go.
> 
> Average Apogee Decrease per Orbit is 154.62km
> Average Perigee Increased per Orbit is 154.93km
> 
> New guess is 21 more days or Monday, May 19.
> 
> Previous guesses are:
> TLE# - Guess
> 51 - 25 days - Tue. May 20
> 52 - 23 days - Tue. May 20
> 53 - 26 days - Sat. May 24


Are you taking into account that it's not unusual for the rate of approach to slow down significantly as it gets closer to its destination? With Spaceway-1, they took more than two weeks to do the last 60 km of apogee and perigee adjustments


----------



## kw2957

I know I've asked this a little over a week ago, but once D-11 is docked in its final position, how long do you think it will take to become operational, as far as HD signals being beamed down to receivers? I know it must take at least a few weeks to test the satellite, right??


----------



## P Smith

Right.


----------



## cartrivision

kw2957 said:


> I know I've asked this a little over a week ago, but once D-11 is docked in its final position, how long do you think it will take to become operational, as far as HD signals being beamed down to receivers? I know it must take at least a few weeks to test the satellite, right??


Almost immediately, but that doesn't mean that anyone but the testers will be able to view the channels. It may take weeks or even more than a month before the first channel is viewable by the general subscriber population&#8230; so maybe sometime before the end of June if we are lucky.


----------



## jefbal99

sbl said:


> What, like January 15, 1919 in Boston?


nope, d11 isn't crushed under a molasses flow, but its moving like it is


----------



## DCappy

caritrivision, 

No.

I use an average of increase in orbit (for perigee). 

I make two different estimates using Excel spreadsheet. One I use TLE#31 thru the present TLE. The second I use TLE#44 thru the present TLE.

The first estimate I made, the difference between the two data bases was five days and the difference for the last (4th) estimate is two days.

I don’t claim to be a rocket scientist, just a guy trying to guess when DirecTV 11 is going to park it.


----------



## kw2957

jefbal99 said:


> nope, d11 isn't crushed under a molasses flow, but its moving like it is


HAHA :hurah: :lol:


----------



## dms1

ddobson said:


> I am not a rocket guy but the slower it moves, less fuel it takes to stop it when it gets there?


No. If they were moving the satellite from one point in space to another then you would be correct because you would need to perform a rocket burn to accelerate the satellite in the required direction and then subsequently perform another burn in the opposite direction to stop it again. The quicker you want to move in this case, the more acceleration and deceleration needed and hence the more fuel needed.

However, D11 is in a stable orbit and the requirement is to change this orbit, not move it anywhere. This is achieved by altering the speed at the appropriate points in the orbit using burns tangential to the orbit. There is no concept of any sort of reverse burn to undo the original burn.

As I've said before, there are a number of reasons to take things slowly and steadily. For example:
1. It is easier to correct for any errors, such as an initial misorientation, after a short burn than after a long burn.
2. The shorter a burn takes the closer to tangential for the entire duration the applied thrust is.
3. There may be technical limits on how long the rocket motor and the XIPS thrusters can be activated at one time.


----------



## Jeremy W

dms1 said:


> There may be technical limits on how long the rocket motor and the XIPS thrusters can be activated at one time.


They wouldn't be using the XIPS thrusters at this point, would they?


----------



## lwilli201

Jeremy W said:


> They wouldn't be using the XIPS thrusters at this point, would they?


Would the XIPS thrusters be used to put the sat in proper orientation before main thruster burn?


----------



## bubbers44

No, from what I have learned here XIPS will not be used until stationary. It doesn't have enough thrust to make major changes. It is a highly efficient way to maintain the orbit, once established.


----------



## bubbers44

I was responding to Jeremy. I would assume orienting the satellite to initiate burns would be done by XIPS.


----------



## Ken984

another tle 


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08121.93075970 -.00000251  00000-0  00000+0 0   558
2 32729 000.1197 277.8938 0754534 283.7834 279.7487 00.99882012   542


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> another tle ...


Yep, #55 is a few hours later and only the perigee (low) changed ... +108km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE55)
1 32729U 08013A   08121.93075970 -.00000251  00000-0  00000+0 0   558
2 32729 000.1197 277.8938 0754534 283.7834 279.7487 00.99882012   542

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-30-2008 22:20:17[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination		0.120
RA of A. Node		277.894
Eccentricity		0.0754534
Argument of Perigee	283.783
Revs per day		0.99882012
Period			24h 01m 42s (1441.70 min)
Semi-major axis		42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 706 x 39 086 km[/B]
Element number / age	55 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+ 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days, +108km)
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days, +313km)
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days.,- 17km)
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days, +436km)
TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (+  .4 hours, at 37.0 days, -  1km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## cashoe

Sixto said:


> Yep, #55 is a few hours later and only the perigee (low) changed ... +108km ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DirecTV-11(TLE55)
> 1 32729U 08013A   08121.93075970 -.00000251  00000-0  00000+0 0   558
> 2 32729 000.1197 277.8938 0754534 283.7834 279.7487 00.99882012   542
> 
> NORAD #			32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)		[B]04-30-2008 22:20:17[/B]
> Orbit # at Epoch	54
> Inclination		0.120
> RA of A. Node		277.894
> Eccentricity		0.0754534
> Argument of Perigee	283.783
> Revs per day		0.99882012
> Period			24h 01m 42s (1441.70 min)
> Semi-major axis		42 274 km
> Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 706 x 39 086 km[/B]
> Element number / age	55 / 0 day(s)
> 
> [B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
> TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+108km, + 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days)
> TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+313km, +17.8 hours, at 41.9 days)
> TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (- 17km, +33.8 hours, at 41.1 days)
> TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+436km, +66.2 hours, at 39.7 days)
> TLE#50 (04-25-2008 16:48:00) 31,867 x 39,844 km (-  1km, +  .4 hours, at 37.0 days)
> 
> Last 5 TLE's above ...
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


Anyone else pick up on the decreasing periods of tle's 52 thru 55?
I'm sure its nothing but a coincedince, but each one is roughly half the period of the previous tle.


----------



## DCappy

New guesstimate to park DirecTV 11, day 42, second TLE today.

Apogee decreased 0km and has 3,300km to go.
Perigee increased 108km and has 3,188km to go.

New guess is 21 more days or Tuesday, May 20.

Previous guesses are:
TLE# - Guess
51 - 25 days - Tue. May 20
52 - 23 days - Tue. May 20
53 - 26 days - Sat. May 24
54 - 21 days - Mon. May 19

Time since release of last TLE (hours).
44 - 34.0
45 - 45.1
46 - 18.5
47 - 30.1
48 - 34.6
49 - 3.0
51 - 23.6*
50 - 0.4
52 - 66.2
53 - 33.8
54 - 17.8
55 - 7.7
*released out of order

Don’t see a pattern cashoe.


----------



## LameLefty

bubbers44 said:


> I was responding to Jeremy. I would assume orienting the satellite to initiate burns would be done by XIPS.


I would think reaction/momentum wheels would be used in lieu of any kind of thruster for most routine pointing tasks to minimize risk of contamination of PV arrays and antenna elements but it might well be small hydrazine thrusters. I don't think XIPS has enough thrust and requires too much power to work as a routine RCS (reaction control system).


----------



## Ken984

another tle small changes continue



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08122.17503999 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0   560
2 32729 000.1118 273.4922 0744619 288.1030 007.6094 00.99944313   545


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> another tle small changes continue ...


the updated data with TLE# 56 ... +26km perigee (low) ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE56)
1 32729U 08013A   08122.17503999 -.00000253  00000-0  10000-3 0   560
2 32729 000.1118 273.4922 0744619 288.1030 007.6094 00.99944313   545

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-01-2008 04:12:03[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination		0.112
RA of A. Node		273.492
Eccentricity		0.0744619
Argument of Perigee	288.103
Revs per day		0.99944313
Period			24h 00m 48s (1440.80 min)
Semi-major axis		42 257 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 732 x 39 025 km[/B]
Element number / age	56 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#56 (05-01-2008 04:12:03) [B]32,732 x 39,025 km[/B] (+ 5.9 hours, at 42.4 days, +26km)
TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+ 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days, +108km)
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days, +313km)
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days.,- 17km)
TLE#52 (04-28-2008 10:59:43) 32,302 x 39,428 km (+66.2 hours, at 39.7 days, +436km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Tiger62

This looks like simply a data-correction TLE. I doubt that an orbital adjustment that small would have been made.


----------



## P Smith

Could be premature shutoff for normal burn.


----------



## DCappy

New guesstimate to park DirecTV 11, day 43, 5.9 hours since the last TLE.

Apogee decreased 61km and has 3,239km to go.
Perigee increased 26km and has 3,054km to go.

New guess is 20 more days or Wednesday, May 21.

Previous guesses are:
TLE# - Guess
51 - 25 days - Tue. May 20
52 - 23 days - Tue. May 20
53 - 26 days - Sat. May 24
54 - 21 days - Mon. May 19
55 - 21 days - Tue. May 20


----------



## Ken984

and another small change



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08122.50000000 -.00000256  00000-0  00000+0 0   571
2 32729 000.1120 274.6950 0740552 286.9910 124.5430 01.00012590   546


----------



## Ken984

lowered the apogee this time

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-01 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination	0.112
RA of A. Node	274.695
Eccentricity	0.0740552
Argument of Perigee	286.991
Revs per day	1.00012590
Period	23h 59m 49s (1439.82 min)
Semi-major axis	42 238 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 732 x 38 987 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	124.543
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## jefbal99

Ken984 said:


> and another small change
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08122.50000000 -.00000256  00000-0  00000+0 0   571
> 2 32729 000.1120 274.6950 0740552 286.9910 124.5430 01.00012590   546





Code:


Name	#32729
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	05/01/2008 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination	0.112
RA of A. Node	274.695
Eccentricity	0.0740552
Argument of Perigee	286.991
Revs per day	1.00012590
Period	23h 59m 49s (1439.82 min)
Semi-major axis	42 238 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 732 x 38 987 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	124.543
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> and another small change ...


thanks ... they keep comin ... the summary for #57 ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE57)
1 32729U 08013A   08122.50000000 -.00000256  00000-0  00000+0 0   571
2 32729 000.1120 274.6950 0740552 286.9910 124.5430 01.00012590   546

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-01-2008 12:00:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination		0.112
RA of A. Node		274.695
Eccentricity		0.0740552
Argument of Perigee	286.991
Revs per day		1.00012590
Period			23h 59m 49s (1439.82 min)
Semi-major axis		42 238 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 732 x 38 987 km[/B]
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) [B]32 732 x 38 987 km[/B] (+ 7.8 hours, at 42.8 days, +  0km)
TLE#56 (05-01-2008 04:12:03) 32,732 x 39,025 km (+ 5.9 hours, at 42.4 days, + 26km)
TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+ 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days, +108km)
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days, +313km)
TLE#53 (04-29-2008 20:49:59) 32,285 x 39,398 km (+33.8 hours, at 41.1 days.,- 17km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## DCappy

No change from last guesstimate.

I believe that it’s a minor adjustment to keep the “Period” under 24 hours. Maybe one of the rocket scientists can comment. 

Period:
TLE#55 - 24h 01m 42s (1441.70 min)
TLE#56 - 24h 00m 48s (1440.80 min)
TLE#57 - 23h 59m 49s (1439.82 min)


----------



## smiddy

Whoa, tweaks occuring moments apart...things that make you go humm!


----------



## Sixto

While we have a little lull here ...

Do we think that the starting perigee (low) of 29,400km is something that DirecTV / Boeing predicted or just where they ended up after a significant burn? And then they settled into the steady climb.

Spaceway-1 did a major jump to 26,000km and then started the slow day-by-day jump, a few hundred km's per orbit on it's way to 35,786.

D10 jumped to 34,000 before starting the same daily slow burns.

And now, D11 jumped to 29,400 before starting the daily burns.

So do we think that they planned for 29,400 as a starting point? or they just did a big burn and that was the result? but it could have been more or less by a thousand or two?

It certainly does seem like their first goal is to make the big burn, get at least into the 20k's, and then the rest is done with small burns and is the safest and most efficient.

Just trying to figure out if the starting point (the first big jump) is very predictive?


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   [COLOR="DarkOrange"]08122.37242258[/COLOR] -.00000263  00000-0  00000+0 0   588
2 32729 000.1103 273.3452 0736799 287.9921 078.9793 01.00108895   549

lower perigee and apogee
Edit: It appears this tle has an older timestamp than the previously posted tle.....

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-01 08:56:17
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination	0.110
RA of A. Node	273.345
Eccentricity	0.0736799
Argument of Perigee	287.992
Revs per day	1.00108895
Period	23h 58m 26s (1438.43 min)
Semi-major axis	42 210 km
Perigee x Apogee	32 722 x 38 942 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	78.979
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	58 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## turbrodude

The timestamp may be earlier, but the eccentricity is lower (better).
Hmmm....


----------



## Sixto

quiet day ... leaving TLE# 57 as the latest ... but added #58 to history ... those 12:00:00 TLE's are always suspicious ... ah well, we wait for the next ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE57)
1 32729U 08013A   08122.50000000 -.00000256  00000-0  00000+0 0   571
2 32729 000.1120 274.6950 0740552 286.9910 124.5430 01.00012590   546

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-01-2008 12:00:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	54
Inclination		0.112
RA of A. Node		274.695
Eccentricity		0.0740552
Argument of Perigee	286.991
Revs per day		1.00012590
Period			23h 59m 49s (1439.82 min)
Semi-major axis		42 238 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 732 x 38 987 km[/B]
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) [B]32 732 x 38 987 km[/B] (+ 3.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 10km)
TLE#58 (05-01-2008 08:56:17) 32 722 x 38 942 km (+ 4.7 hours, at 42.6 days, - 10km)
TLE#56 (05-01-2008 04:12:03) 32,732 x 39,025 km (+ 5.9 hours, at 42.4 days, + 26km)
TLE#55 (04-30-2008 22:20:17) 32,706 x 39,086 km (+ 7.7 hours, at 42.2 days, +108km)
TLE#54 (04-30-2008 14:38:43) 32,598 x 39,086 km (+17.8 hours, at 41.9 days, +313km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new on the normal Friday FCC release front ...

SAT-00519: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1044A1.pdf


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 60 ... +244km ... there's also another strange TLE#59 ... but we're golden with a real #60:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE60)
1 32729U 08013A   08124.26852939 -.00000243  00000-0  00000+0 0   602
2 32729 000.1020 273.9557 0686943 287.8516 040.9961 00.99942653   566

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-03-2008 06:26:40[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	56
Inclination		0.102
RA of A. Node		273.956
Eccentricity		0.0686943
Argument of Perigee	287.852
Revs per day		0.99942653
Period			24h 00m 49s (1440.82 min)
Semi-major axis		42 257 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]32 976 x 38 782 km[/B]
Element number / age	60 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) [B]32 976 x 38 782 km[/B] (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)
TLE#59 (05-01-2008 10:53:37) 32,718 x 38,919 km (+ 2.0 hours, at 42.7 days, -  4km)
TLE#58 (05-01-2008 08:56:17) 32,722 x 38,942 km (+ 4.7 hours, at 42.6 days, - 10km)
TLE#56 (05-01-2008 04:12:03) 32,732 x 39,025 km (+ 5.9 hours, at 42.4 days, + 26km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## wilmot3

with the current tle it will be at 99 on 2008-05-16 16:52:11.....lol


----------



## tuff bob

Code:


Revs per day		0.99942653
Period			24h 00m 49s (1440.82 min)

Note that the revs and period should also mean it should start drifting west towards 99 :


----------



## dms1

tuff bob said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> Revs per day		0.99942653
> Period			24h 00m 49s (1440.82 min)
> 
> Note that the revs and period should also mean it should start drifting west towards 99 :


It's been drifting west for a while. Remember that it's sidereal, not solar days, that count.


----------



## PoitNarf

So what's the over / under for a park date of May 20th? (just pulled that date out of thin air)


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> So what's the over / under for a park date of May 20th? (just pulled that date out of thin air)


My little magic spreadsheet says 19.3 more days plus or minus a day or two. 

Followed by some tweaking ...


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> While we have a little lull here ...
> 
> Do we think that the starting perigee (low) of 29,400km is something that DirecTV / Boeing predicted or just where they ended up after a significant burn? And then they settled into the steady climb.
> 
> Spaceway-1 did a major jump to 26,000km and then started the slow day-by-day jump, a few hundred km's per orbit on it's way to 35,786.
> 
> D10 jumped to 34,000 before starting the same daily slow burns.
> 
> And now, D11 jumped to 29,400 before starting the daily burns.
> 
> So do we think that they planned for 29,400 as a starting point? or they just did a big burn and that was the result? but it could have been more or less by a thousand or two?
> 
> It certainly does seem like their first goal is to make the big burn, get at least into the 20k's, and then the rest is done with small burns and is the safest and most efficient.
> 
> Just trying to figure out if the starting point (the first big jump) is very predictive?


Any comment?


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Any comment?


Uhm no, way out of my league.  I'm just a fly on the wall. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Any comment?


You lost me at "While we..." 

The information on D11's progress into parking location is nothing shy of amazing.

The knowledge base here seems comparible to having an insider at the DirecTV Ops Center giving play-by-play. Impressive indeed.

Many of us are learning alot along the way...thanks for sharing your expertise!


----------



## MIAMI1683

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You lost me at "While we..."
> 
> The information on D11's progress into parking location is nothing shy of amazing.
> 
> The knowledge base here seems comparible to having an insider at the DirecTV Ops Center giving play-by-play. Impressive indeed.
> 
> Many of us are learning alot along the way...thanks for sharing your expertise!


 all I can say is +1


----------



## dms1

Sixto said:


> Any comment?


Personal opinion, but here is my reasoning:

It is reasonable to ignore any drag-type effects or the gravitational effects of any body other than the Earth and still make a very accurate prediction of the satellite's behavior. Therefore, given that the orbital characteristics after launch were accurately known, the orbit after that initial burn would be determined by the function of acceleration over time resulting from that burn. We can assume that the time the motor was fired for could be determined very accurately too, so any potential uncertainly comes down to the acceleration.

Of course, the acceleration is determined by both the thrust of the motor, and the mass of the satellite. Although the mass of satellite at launch would have been well known, the mass reduces as fuel burns off, and the rate of fuel burn is a characteristic of the rocket motor. Therefore, the acceleration is affected by two parameters of the rocket motor itself - the rate of fuel burn and the resulting thrust generated.

Even if this was the first launch for a new satellite I would expect the rocket motor to have been extensively tested and simulated. However, this is not the first flight of this satellite so all the pre-launch data is supplemented by real measured data, and one would expect the motor's capabilities to be well understood.

Therefore, in conclusion, I think that although the altitude after that initial burn would be only vaguely defined if one didn't have a full characterization for the rocket motor, I suspect that this isn't the case here and that altitude was targeted as part of the pre-planned maneuvering.


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> Personal opinion, but here is my reasoning:
> 
> It is reasonable to ignore any drag-type effects or the gravitational effects of any body other than the Earth and still make a very accurate prediction of the satellite's behavior. Therefore, given that the orbital characteristics after launch were accurately known, the orbit after that initial burn would be determined by the function of acceleration over time resulting from that burn. We can assume that the time the motor was fired for could be determined very accurately too, so any potential uncertainly comes down to the acceleration.
> 
> Of course, the acceleration is determined by both the thrust of the motor, and the mass of the satellite. Although the mass of satellite at launch would have been well known, the mass reduces as fuel burns off, and the rate of fuel burn is a characteristic of the rocket motor. Therefore, the acceleration is affected by two parameters of the rocket motor itself - the rate of fuel burn and the resulting thrust generated.
> 
> Even if this was the first launch for a new satellite I would expect the rocket motor to have been extensively tested and simulated. However, this is not the first flight of this satellite so all the pre-launch data is supplemented by real measured data, and one would expect the motor's capabilities to be well understood.
> 
> Therefore, in conclusion, I think that although the altitude after that initial burn would be only vaguely defined if one didn't have a full characterization for the rocket motor, I suspect that this isn't the case here and that altitude was targeted as part of the pre-planned maneuvering.


Very logical thorough explanation. Thanks. (I agree btw).

So with those assumptions, we'd need to assume that they knew approximately where the satellite would be after that burn, so for some reason they decided to leave it there at a perigee of 29,456km and then begin the gradual daily climb. Every 150km or so below 35,800km added another day to the parking schedule.

Assuming then that the satisfaction with a starting perigee of 29,456km was decided on to save fuel rather then because of less risk.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> Very logical thorough explanation. Thanks. (I agree btw).
> 
> So with those assumptions, we'd need to assume that they knew approximately where the satellite would be after that burn, so for some reason they decided to leave it there at a perigee of 29,456km and then begin the gradual daily climb. Every 150km or so below 35,800km added another day to the parking schedule.
> 
> Assuming then that the satisfaction with a starting perigee of 29,456km was decided on to save fuel rather then because of less risk.


I'm pretty sure every single movement has been completely planned (with one exception--the time until signal acquisition was approximate based on the launch coverage by SeaLaunch.)

I'm also sure the bird could be in place by now if they wanted. And would be if S1, S2, or D10 had any serious problems. I presume all this leads to a quantifiable fuel savings, therefore longer lifespan. 

Long Live DIRECTV-11 (and S1, S2, and D10!) 

Cheer cheer, (aka cheers)
Tom


----------



## Ed Campbell

Sixto said:


> Very logical thorough explanation. Thanks. (I agree btw).
> 
> So with those assumptions, we'd need to assume that they knew approximately where the satellite would be after that burn, so for some reason they decided to leave it there at a perigee of 29,456km and then begin the gradual daily climb. Every 150km or so below 35,800km added another day to the parking schedule.
> 
> Assuming then that the satisfaction with a starting perigee of 29,456km was decided on to save fuel rather then because of less risk.


Since one of my several careers before retirement was grounded in exclusively terrestrial traffic management, I wonder if some of the alterations from previous launches had to concern changes in "the neighborhood"?

Every year the geography and topography of useful orbits acquires significant changes. How you get to where you wish to go certainly has to account for those changes.


----------



## gslater

Tom Robertson said:


> I presume all this leads to a quantifiable fuel savings, therefore longer lifespan.  . . . Tom


Ok. I have a question and I know someone here is knowledgable enough to answer. I've heard it said many times that saving fuel equates to a longer lifespan. I thought that D11 used two propulsion systems. The main thruster and the XIPS thrusters and that the XIPS was used for station keeping. Doesn't the XIPS have it's own fuel supply? If so, then how does saving fuel for the main thrusters affect longevity?

Educate me please. Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm not sure. I've got a couple guesses, one is they can use either system for station keeping (of sorts, the "big" engine might be a poor module for that). 

Or they can use either for the end of life lift to the graveyard orbit. In that scenario, if the save enough of the "old style" fuel, they can use ALL the Xips for station keeping and not have to reserve any for the graveyard move.

But these are pure guesses. I'll hope someone who knows tells. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## inkahauts

Also, maybe if they ever decide to move it to a different parking space maybe they would want to use the bigger engine?


----------



## bobnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm not sure. I've got a couple guesses, one is they can use either system for station keeping (of sorts, the "big" engine might be a poor module for that).
> 
> Or they can use either for the end of life lift to the graveyard orbit. In that scenario, if the save enough of the "old style" fuel, they can use ALL the Xips for station keeping and not have to reserve any for the graveyard move.
> 
> But these are pure guesses. I'll hope someone who knows tells.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


It's been 42 years (!) since I worked with geosynchronous satellites, but in those days a hydrazine system (which I recall that the "big" engine is) was used for station keeping, so it could probably be used for either mission. Xips is relatively low thrust.

In those days they didn't have any graveyard requirement as I recall. One of the ones I worked on (ATS-1) drifted around for many years and ended up quite a ways from the equator, but one of the transponders was still working (with an omnidirectional antenna) directly from the solar panels long after the planned life had passed. It was turned on occasionally, mainly to see if it was still functional.


----------



## cartrivision

dms1 said:


> Personal opinion, but here is my reasoning:
> 
> It is reasonable to ignore any drag-type effects or the gravitational effects of any body other than the Earth and still make a very accurate prediction of the satellite's behavior. Therefore, given that the orbital characteristics after launch were accurately known, the orbit after that initial burn would be determined by the function of acceleration over time resulting from that burn. We can assume that the time the motor was fired for could be determined very accurately too, so any potential uncertainly comes down to the acceleration.
> 
> Of course, the acceleration is determined by both the thrust of the motor, and the mass of the satellite. Although the mass of satellite at launch would have been well known, the mass reduces as fuel burns off, and the rate of fuel burn is a characteristic of the rocket motor. Therefore, the acceleration is affected by two parameters of the rocket motor itself - the rate of fuel burn and the resulting thrust generated.
> 
> Even if this was the first launch for a new satellite I would expect the rocket motor to have been extensively tested and simulated. However, this is not the first flight of this satellite so all the pre-launch data is supplemented by real measured data, and one would expect the motor's capabilities to be well understood.
> 
> Therefore, in conclusion, I think that although the altitude after that initial burn would be only vaguely defined if one didn't have a full characterization for the rocket motor, I suspect that this isn't the case here and that altitude was targeted as part of the pre-planned maneuvering.


WOW!! That was a long and complicated way of saying that the orbit change that we saw after the first major burn was probably exactly what they were trying to do. BTW, I agree.... I think that short of an outright mistake in calculating or executing the burn parameters, the placement of the satellite after each burn is very close to being exactly where they plan for it to be.


----------



## dms1

cartrivision said:


> WOW!! That was a long and complicated way of saying that the orbit change that we saw after the first major burn was probably exactly what they were trying to do. BTW, I agree.... I think that short of an outright mistake in calculating or executing the burn parameters, the placement of the satellite after each burn is very close to being exactly where they plan for it to be.


Well, I figured that 'Sixto' didn't just want an agree/disagree answer to his question.


----------



## Herdfan

Is it possible to compare the initial altitudes of D11 vs D10 or SW1 given that at least D10 did not lift off at the equator and they had to move it there after launch?

Don't have a clue, just asking.


----------



## moonman

Herdfan said:


> Is it possible to compare the initial altitudes of D11 vs D10 or SW1 given that at least D10 did not lift off at the equator and they had to move it there after launch?
> 
> Don't have a clue, just asking.


=================
SEE POST #2
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1508286&postcount=2


----------



## Sixto

dms1 said:


> Well, I figured that 'Sixto' didn't just want an agree/disagree answer to his question.


Correct.


----------



## ShawnL25

So based only on my own guesstimation it would seem reasonable to me that it could be parked by Friday May 23rd. Is this a fair guess?


----------



## Sirshagg

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You lost me at "While we..."
> 
> The information on D11's progress into parking location is nothing shy of amazing.
> 
> The knowledge base here seems comparible to having an insider at the DirecTV Ops Center giving play-by-play. Impressive indeed.
> 
> Many of us are learning alot along the way...thanks for sharing your expertise!


Or so it seems. Perhaps the folks at the DirecTV Ops Center are laughing their butts off abount how wrong the info is here. Personally I don't know - the info here could be 100% accurate or 100% wrong - I wouldn't know one way or the other. :lol:


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08126.50000000 -.00000244  00000-0  00000+0 0   617
2 32729 000.0980 275.2460 0610639 286.2520 123.6100 01.00027937   583

perigee raised 300km, slowly but surely getting there
Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-05 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	58
Inclination	0.098
RA of A. Node	275.246
Eccentricity	0.0610639
Argument of Perigee	286.252
Revs per day	1.00027937
Period	23h 59m 35s (1439.58 min)
Semi-major axis	42 233 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 276 x 38 434 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	123.610
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	61 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## MIAMI1683

Well I am still waiting too. Like most I enjoy reading this thread and all the information being posetd here. For the sake of guessing also. I like May 19th. Whats the over/under?


----------



## Sirshagg

MIAMI1683 said:


> Well I am still waiting too. Like most I enjoy reading this thread and all the information being posetd here. For the sake of guessing also. I like May 19th. Whats the over/under?


Wasn't it said in last weekends chat that the slimline3 will be out before D11 is up? I'm going with June.


----------



## DCappy

This is from a retired welder playing with a spreadsheet.

They did three big Perigee burns, (1) TLE#11- 3/27 - 6,924km (2) TLE#15 - 3/31- 9,976km (3) TLE#21 - 4/4 - 12,095km.

They did two big Apogee burns, (1) TLE#5 - 3/24 - 2,507km (2) TLE#7 - 3/26 - 1,742km. 

I ran a moving average of the moves of Perigee. It climbed to a high at TLE#21 (29,456km). (This was the first time that the TLEs were issued out of order.) After that the average declines. 

TLE#23 (4/5/08) thru TLE#30 (4/9/08) only moved form a -2km to a +1km. My thought is that they were moving it east. 

At TLE#23 the Perigee was 29,622km and Apogee was 41,228km (highest point, 5,442km above target of 35786km). 

At TLE#31 they start raising the Perigee again. Nice and easy.

TLE#31 - 4/9 - 110km
TLE#32 - 4/10 - 141km
TLE#33 - 4/11 - -3km
TLE#34 - 4/12 - 146km
TLE#35 - 4/13 - 238km
TLE#36 - 4/14 - -1km

After this we’re getting two TLEs in a day (some times) and it makes it hard to read a pattern. Looks like burn for two orbits and settle out for one.

At TLE#44 they seem to be picking up the pace. From TLE#33 thru TLE#43 the average gain in Perigee was 83km. From TLE#44 thru TLE#60 the average is 152.8km.

A saying form my youth: “There’s more than one way to skin a rabbit” (sorry PETA fans). Means that “no” to trying to figure out if the starting point (the first big jump) is very predictive.

I think that they have this thing under control and have a plan (which makes my brain hurt thinking about).


----------



## DCappy

New guesstimate to park DirecTV 11.

Day 46.8, TLE#61, 53:33:19 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 300km and has 2,510km to go.
Apogee decreased 348km and has 2,648km to go.

New guess is 17.2 more days or Thursday, May 22.

Previous guesses are:
TLE# - Guess
51 - 25.5 days - Tue. May 20
52 - 22.8 days - Tue. May 20
53 - 25.7 days - Sat. May 24
54 - 21.0 days - Mon. May 19
55 - 20.6 days - Tue. May 20
56 - 20.2 days - Wed. May 21
57 - 20.6 days - Wed. May 21
58 - 19.8 days - Wed. May 21
60 - 19.6 days - Thu. May 22


----------



## Interceptor

Although I'm probably going to make myself a big goofball here, I'm going to step out on a limb and say it will be sooner rather than later. I'm guessing between May 10 and May 13. (How's that for an optimist?)  

But, I will say, if memory serves me correctly, what will probably happen is that we will not get TLE updates for about three days, and the next one after that will show it virtually parked. I'm thinking that's how DirecTV-10 did it anyway. Seems their final maneuvers were somewhat of a secret thing.

Anyone care to look back at the DirecTV-10 archive? I would, but I'm too lazy!:grin:


----------



## cartrivision

MIAMI1683 said:


> For the sake of guessing also. I like May 19th.





DCappy said:


> New guess is 17.2 more days or Thursday, May 22.





Interceptor said:


> I'm going to step out on a limb and say it will be sooner rather than later. I'm guessing between May 10 and May 13.


Decent guesses.... some better than others... but remember, you heard it here first.... the arrival date will be..........

June 1st.

Notify all your clients, Mr. Valentine has set the arrival date.


----------



## njblackberry

cartrivision said:


> Notify all your clients, Mr. Valentine has set the arrival date.


"Y'all sound like a buncha bookies."
Great movie. Thanks for the laugh :lol:


----------



## STEVED21

I'll bet you all a dollar it gets there before June 1st.


----------



## Sixto

You guys have been busy today ... lots of wagers after the Derby 

With today's TLE# 61, the average km climb is still the same at a little over 6km per hour. The last 10 TLE's still put us at 35,785km at day#63 (May 21st).

Anything can change between now and then. Also, those last several days always have alot of tweaking going on, so cartrivision may be correct.

Also, these .50000000 type TLE's are weird. Seems like we always then get some out of order TLE's afterwards.

Here's the updated chart with the latest data that you guys had from earlier:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE61)
1 32729U 08013A   08126.50000000 -.00000244  00000-0  00000+0 0   617
2 32729 000.0980 275.2460 0610639 286.2520 123.6100 01.00027937   583

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-05-2008 12:00:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	58
Inclination		0.098
RA of A. Node		275.246
Eccentricity		0.0610639
Argument of Perigee	286.252
Revs per day		1.00027937
Period			23h 59m 35s (1439.58 min)
Semi-major axis		42 233 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 276 x 38 434 km[/B]
Element number / age	61 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#56 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) [B]33,276 x 38,434 km[/B] (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) 32,976 x 38,782 km (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)
TLE#59 (05-01-2008 10:53:37) 32,718 x 38,919 km (+ 2.0 hours, at 42.7 days, -  4km)
TLE#58 (05-01-2008 08:56:17) 32,722 x 38,942 km (+ 4.7 hours, at 42.6 days, - 10km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> Wasn't it said in last weekends chat that the slimline3 will be out before D11 is up? I'm going with June.


Yep. It was clearly stated (during the EVP chat) that the new SlimLine would happen before DirecTV-11.


----------



## DCappy

My latest guess is 17.2 more days or Thursday, May 22 to park it. 

A little history on DirecTV 10:

July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.

Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.

Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.

Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.

I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.

There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don’t think we will have that problem this time.


----------



## Sixto

Based on everything we know and all the tracking we do here every day ...

And based on what we saw with D10 ...

I'd say that the first signals from D11 that we'll see on our signal strength meters is early June ... maybe very late May but seems more like June ...

With official channels from D11 on 6/4, 6/11, or 6/18. One of those three Wednesday's at 6am. Probably best guess is 6/11.

Just conservatively analyzing the situation.


----------



## DCappy

Sixto said:


> Based on everything we know and all the tracking we do here every day ...
> 
> And based on what we saw with D10 ...
> 
> I'd say that the first signals from D11 that we'll see on our signal strength meters is early June ... maybe very late May but seems more like June ...
> 
> With official channels from D11 on 6/4, 6/11, or 6/18. One of those three Wednesday's at 6am. Probably best guess is 6/11.
> 
> Just conservatively analyzing the situation.


I agree. I'll be getting up early every Wednesday morning starting June 4, until they light up.

PS - They don't have to test the BBCs this time.


----------



## PoitNarf

Sirshagg said:


> Wasn't it said in last weekends chat that the slimline3 will be out before D11 is up? I'm going with June.





Sixto said:


> Yep. It was clearly stated (during the EVP chat) that the new SlimLine would happen before DirecTV-11.


Well D11 still needs to be parked before it broadcasts, and it could be parked for several days or weeks before they decide to start broadcasting to customers.


----------



## Dave

My best guess estimate to light up the bird is.......First Sunday of NFL. Hope I am wrong, but you never know. DirectV is in no hurry to light up D11. They are already in the lead with HD channels being broadcast to the general public. Also remember they are also only charging us a $ 10 access fee for all this HD. So my best guess is either Aug. 31 or Sept. 7 to go live to us with a feed to add more HD.


----------



## Lord Vader

DCappy said:


> I agree. I'll be getting up early every Wednesday morning starting June 4, until they light up.
> 
> PS - They don't have to test the BBCs this time.


Then you'll be getting up early on plenty of Wednesdays. They're not going to be lighting up D11 for quite some time.


----------



## Sixto

Lord Vader said:


> Then you'll be getting up early on plenty of Wednesdays. They're not going to be lighting up D11 for quite some time.


We'll be just fine Sir Lord. 

No need for any 6am checks until we see 99(c) for a good week or two.


----------



## inkahauts

I think they light up signal strengths whenever they feel like it, not on a wed. No point in getting up on a wed looking for channels until after we see signal strengths from D11


----------



## inkahauts

Dave said:


> My best guess estimate to light up the bird is.......First Sunday of NFL. Hope I am wrong, but you never know. DirectV is in no hurry to light up D11. They are already in the lead with HD channels being broadcast to the general public. Also remember they are also only charging us a $ 10 access fee for all this HD. So my best guess is either Aug. 31 or Sept. 7 to go live to us with a feed to add more HD.


With the way advertising goes, the more the better today....

I think we will see it light up sooner than NFL... Something tells me there are a lot more channels ready and waiting than we realize... And it is a big deal in terms of LIL and PBS.... I think they are moving as fast as they can, in a safe mode, and I don't think how much they charge for HD has anything to do with it....


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> My best guess estimate to light up the bird is.......First Sunday of NFL. Hope I am wrong, but you never know. DirectV is in no hurry to light up D11. They are already in the lead with HD channels being broadcast to the general public. Also remember they are also only charging us a $ 10 access fee for all this HD. So my best guess is either Aug. 31 or Sept. 7 to go live to us with a feed to add more HD.


They are following a very predictable pattern which is very similar (almost identical) to Spaceway-1 and D10, after the initial significant burn. The only difference is the initial perigee (low).

The rest of the way is ~6km per hour, ~150km per day, we'll get there mid-to-late May, a couple of weeks to tweak, a couple of weeks to test, and then "live" she will go.

Same path as always. We could have predicted today's location two weeks ago. Very predictable, once we all analyzed Spaceway-1 and D10 and discovered the pattern a few weeks ago.

Late-June would be the latest. Mid-June more likely, unless something major is discovered ...


----------



## cartrivision

inkahauts said:


> With the way advertising goes, the more the better today....
> 
> I think we will see it light up sooner than NFL... Something tells me there are a lot more channels ready and waiting than we realize... And it is a big deal in terms of LIL and PBS.... I think they are moving as fast as they can, in a safe mode, and I don't think how much they charge for HD has anything to do with it....


For one thing, there are currently 15 HD HBO/MAX feeds available in addition to the 4 HD feeds that we are already getting, and by the end of June, there will be 7 more.


----------



## Lord Vader

That's irrelevant. There are new HD channels that are broadcasting right now but not on DirecTV.


----------



## cartrivision

Lord Vader said:


> That's irrelevant. There are new HD channels that are broadcasting right now but not on DirecTV.


You need to learn to use the quote button so we know what you are replying to. It couldn't have been the previous post (mine), because my post talked about 15 HBO/MAX channels that *are* broadcasting in HD right now but not on DirecTV.


----------



## photostudent

Dave said:


> My best guess estimate to light up the bird is.......First Sunday of NFL. Hope I am wrong, but you never know. DirectV is in no hurry to light up D11. They are already in the lead with HD channels being broadcast to the general public. Also remember they are also only charging us a $ 10 access fee for all this HD. So my best guess is either Aug. 31 or Sept. 7 to go live to us with a feed to add more HD.


It cost a few bucks to launch D11 so I think new channels will be based on maximizing revenue. LIL adds subscribers. Premium tiers bring in lots of money as well. Adding HD to basic subscriptions will follow more slowly I suspect. I would not be in a rush to see PBS added. Either way Directv is now in the drivers seat!


----------



## LameLefty

photostudent said:


> Either way Directv is now in the drivers seat!


Let's be honest, Directv has been in the HD drivers' seat since D10 was launched.


----------



## swans

then because Dish has my locals in HD now and DirecTV has faulted on their previous promise to provide them. I'll give them a brief reprieve, but how much longer should I ride if they aren't going in my direction?



LameLefty said:


> Let's be honest, Directv has been in the HD drivers' seat since D10 was launched.


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08127.11987480 -.00000218  00000-0  00000+0 0   623
2 32729 000.1035 276.7218 0591250 285.1527 345.8971 00.99719647   592

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-06 02:52:37
Orbit # at Epoch	59
Inclination	0.103
RA of A. Node	276.722
Eccentricity	0.0591250
Argument of Perigee	285.153
Revs per day	0.99719647
Period	24h 04m 02s (1444.3 min)
Semi-major axis	42 320 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 440 x 38 444 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	345.897
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	62 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> new tle


yep ... +164km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE62)
1 32729U 08013A   08127.11987480 -.00000218  00000-0  00000+0 0   623
2 32729 000.1035 276.7218 0591250 285.1527 345.8971 00.99719647   592

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-06-2008 02:52:37[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	59
Inclination		0.104
RA of A. Node		276.722
Eccentricity		0.0591250
Argument of Perigee	285.153
Revs per day		0.99719647
Period			24h 04m 02s (1444.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 320 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 440 x 38 444 km[/B]
Element number / age	62 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) [B]33,440 x 38,444 km[/B] (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) 32,976 x 38,782 km (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)
TLE#59 (05-01-2008 10:53:37) 32,718 x 38,919 km (+ 2.0 hours, at 42.7 days, -  4km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## jeffstra

Dave said:


> My best guess estimate to light up the bird is.......First Sunday of NFL. Hope I am wrong, but you never know. DirectV is in no hurry to light up D11. They are already in the lead with HD channels being broadcast to the general public. Also remember they are also only charging us a $ 10 access fee for all this HD. So my best guess is either Aug. 31 or Sept. 7 to go live to us with a feed to add more HD.


I don't get the "only $10" since they really have no choice. All non-HD broadcasts end next year. So we're paying extra for what will soon be the minimum. The number of channels is a different story but not the format.


----------



## dms1

jeffstra said:


> All non-HD broadcasts end next year.


Do they? That's news to me.


----------



## loudo

jeffstra said:


> All non-HD broadcasts end next year.


I think you mean analog broadcasts end next year.


----------



## Indiana627

jeffstra said:


> All non-HD broadcasts end next year.


Oh dear...

All non-digital broadcasts end next year. That does NOT mean everything will be HD. What it does mean is everything will be digital.

Digital is NOT HD, but HD is digital. (Just like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.)


----------



## dms1

Indiana627 said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> All non-digital broadcasts end next. That does NOT mean everything will be HD. What it does mean is everything will be digital. Digital DOES NOT equal HD, but HD DOES equal digital. (Just like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.)


It does make you wonder what hope there is for the general public. I have seen numerous examples in specialist forums like this of people who are confused, yet the government has to try to make the entire television viewing population understand the digital transition between now and February. :eek2:


----------



## bobojay

dms1 said:


> It does make you wonder what hope there is for the general public. I have seen numerous examples in specialist forums like this of people who are confused, yet the government has to try to make the entire television viewing population understand the digital transition between now and February. :eek2:


The government won't waste the time or money to do that. Neither will the retailers when they can sell an HDTV to an unknowing person.......


----------



## mitoca

Well the PSA's out there don't really make things any clearer. They make it sound like you need to panic, without even saying that if you have cable or satellite you don't need to worry. The issue is very simple, but it isn't explained in simple terms.


----------



## Indiana627

dms1 said:


> It does make you wonder what hope there is for the general public. I have seen numerous examples in specialist forums like this of people who are confused, yet the government has to try to make the entire television viewing population understand the digital transition between now and February. :eek2:


I think a big part of the problem is that some of the people charged with explaining the analog cutoff don't understand it themselves, so how are they supposed to communicate it to the masses?


bobojay said:


> The government won't waste the time or money to do that. Neither will the retailers when they can sell an HDTV to an unknowing person.......


Very true!


----------



## LameLefty

bobojay said:


> The government won't waste the time or money to do that. /QUOTE]
> 
> Well, they've wasted _some_ money at least . . .
> 
> http://www.dtv.gov/


----------



## Dave

Normally this would be for another thread but?? Why am I seeing so many advertisements for the transition if the Gov is not trying to get the word out. Even seen the Ads on HGTV recently. So yes the Gov is pushing really hard for the next 8 months to get the word out to the public.


----------



## harsh

bobojay said:


> The government won't waste the time or money to do that.


The government has already allocated $1.56 billion to it and has probably spent most of it.


----------



## Sirshagg

Almot every day I see it in the crawl during the Today show on NBC. 

But I must ask, what does this have to do with D11 :backtotop


----------



## Dave

Now for the rest of the story. I am very appreciative of all the info I have been getting on here about D11 and its planned orbit and postions and such. But what has the official word been from DirectV about when D11 will go live to the public with more stations. We all hear a lot of this is my guess, or this is your best guess. But what is DTV saying officially about when they will light up D11????


----------



## DodgerKing

Indiana627 said:


> I think a big part of the problem is that some of the people charged with explaining the analog cutoff don't understand it themselves, so how are they supposed to communicate it to the masses?


Especially when BB retailers are also un-knowledgeable.

True story:

Went to BB one day to buy a non-directional indoor UHF antenna for my TV. I talked the guy down from $35 to $20.

After he rung up my purchase he said, "You realize that antenna will no longer work after 2009?" I said (sarcastically), "Really!! Why is that?" He answered, "Everything will be in HD and that antenna is not labeled as HD."

Pausing for a moment to decide if I should let him continue in his ignorance and walk out the door smiling, or say something. I then smiled and said, "No, all OTA TV broadcast will be digital, not necessarily HD. And a simple analog UHF antenna will still be able pick up the digital signal as long as one has a digital tuner." He looked at me dumbfounded.

I didn't know if he thought I was stupid or if he just realized that he did not know as much as he thought he knew???


----------



## Interceptor

Dave said:


> Now for the rest of the story. I am very appreciative of all the info I have been getting on here about D11 and its planned orbit and postions and such. But what has the official word been from DirectV about when D11 will go live to the public with more stations. We all hear a lot of this is my guess, or this is your best guess. But what is DTV saying officially about when they will light up D11????


September... :nono2:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4560004


----------



## ziltomil

DodgerKing said:


> I didn't know if he thought I was stupid or if he just realized that he did not know as much as he thought he knew???


He thought you were stupid...

:lol:


----------



## cartrivision

Looks like Sea Launch is about to head out to sea for their next launch. The webcam shows yesterday's in port tilt-up test of the launch vehicle.

http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/


----------



## DCappy

I trip over this while I was trying find some history on D11.

I liked the 3rd paragragh where said that D11 had been parked.

Some info the rocket sicentist might like.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf


----------



## Fish Man

dms1 said:


> It does make you wonder what hope there is for the general public. I have seen numerous examples in specialist forums like this of people who are confused, yet the government has to try to make the entire television viewing population understand the digital transition between now and February. :eek2:


One of the crawls that some local channels run around here says that "If you have an analog TV, you will need a special converter to continue to watch television after Feb. 2009".

My wife has predicted that there will be thousands of non-technical elderly people who will read that and say, "Oh, I don't have to worry then. I don't have an 'analog' TV, my TV is a 'Sony'". :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

DCappy said:


> I trip over this while I was trying find some history on D11.
> 
> I liked the 3rd paragragh where said that D11 had been parked.
> 
> Some info the rocket sicentist might like.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf


That's a (premature) updating of the same fact sheet Boeing put out last year around the time of the D10 launch preparations.


----------



## DCappy

DirecTV-11 had originally been scheduled for launch by Sea Launch in November, 2007. Following a launch failure at Sea Launch that resulted in damage to the facility, the expected launch date was changed to March 19, 2008.

That puts D11, four months behind schedule. Directv has millions invested in this satellite. “Return on Investment” is something that every investor (and stockholder) understands and this satellite has contributed nothing to the bottom line. 

Directv is not going to sit back and say “We’ve got such a big lead on Dish, we’ll just wait and let them catch up”. That we can’t light it up until the new slimline antenna comes out or one of our company executives put out a CYA statement saying “September”. 

Directv is in business to make money. You can see by the fact that they are taking the time to get another year of money making life out of this satellite.

Sixto has it right, June as early as they can after Boeing hands it off to them.


----------



## ramcm7

Indiana627 said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> Digital is NOT HD, but HD is digital. (Just like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.)


Not all digital is HD. Agreed. The HD being broadcast now is digital because that is the standard. Theoretically (I could be wrong because I am no video expert), the HD could be broadcast as analog, but I think there are some technical limitations that make it unfeasible.


----------



## dms1

ramcm7 said:


> Not all digital is HD. Agreed. The HD being broadcast now is digital because that is the standard. Theoretically (I could be wrong because I am no video expert), the HD could be broadcast as analog, but I think there are some technical limitations that make it unfeasible.


As far as I'm aware, there are no defined analog broadcast standards, i.e. any variants of PAL, SECAM or NTSC, that support a resolution that could reasonably be called HD. The main reason for this is the massive bandwidth that would be required.


----------



## Tom Robertson

dms1 said:


> As far as I'm aware, there are no defined analog broadcast standards, i.e. any variants of PAL, SECAM or NTSC, that support a resolution that could reasonably be called HD. The main reason for this is the massive bandwidth that would be required.


Japan has (had?) an analogue HD system in place for some time. I think they are moving to digital as well.

But lets talk about D11  :backtotop

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

one more time...new tle...closer and closer


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08127.65902903 -.00000239  00000-0  00000+0 0   633
2 32729 000.0989 267.4137 0571675 294.9414 179.4033 00.99961338   606

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-06 15:49:00
Orbit # at Epoch	60
Inclination	0.099
RA of A. Node	267.414
Eccentricity	0.0571675
Argument of Perigee	294.941
Revs per day	0.99961338
Period	24h 00m 33s (1440.55 min)
Semi-major axis	42 252 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 458 x 38 289 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	179.403
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	63 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## DCappy

Previous change moved the Perigee and this one the Apogee. Second one today.

Day 47, TLE#63, 12:56:23 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 18km and has 2,328km to go.
Apogee decreased 155km and has 2,503km to go.

Perigee gaining at 6+km per hour.

16.2 more days or Thursday, May 22 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> Previous change moved the Perigee and this one the Apogee. Second one today ...


Yep ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE63)
1 32729U 08013A   08127.65902903 -.00000239  00000-0  00000+0 0   633
2 32729 000.0989 267.4137 0571675 294.9414 179.4033 00.99961338   606

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-06-2008 15:49:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	60
Inclination		0.099
RA of A. Node		267.414
Eccentricity		0.0571675
Argument of Perigee	294.941
Revs per day		0.99961338
Period			24h 00m 33s (1440.55 min)
Semi-major axis		42 252 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 458 x 38 289 km[/B]
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	63 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) [B]33 458 x 38 289 km[/B] (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) 32,976 x 38,782 km (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## dduitsman

I really enjoy this thread - it is my first stop every day at DBSTalk. It's entertaining - learning from all you Rocket Scientists.

What does *TLE* stand for?

dd


----------



## curt8403

dduitsman said:


> I really enjoy this thread - it is my first stop every day at DBSTalk. It's entertaining - learning from all you Rocket Scientists.
> 
> What does *TLE* stand for?
> 
> dd


Two Line Element


----------



## dduitsman

curt8403 said:


> Two Line Element


Sensei,

What is the significance of the phrase *Two Line Element*?

dd


----------



## dms1

dduitsman said:


> Sensei,
> 
> What is the significance of the phrase *Two Line Element*?
> 
> dd


It's a long standing format for listing the orbital parameters of objects orbiting the Earth. It was designed to occupy two lines of eighty characters and dates back to the days of punched cards. These days, all software that visualizes orbits will import TLEs.


----------



## grump

dduitsman said:


> Sensei,
> 
> What is the significance of the phrase *Two Line Element*?
> 
> dd


*T*wo *L*ines of orbital data *E*lements

As always, Wikipedia is your friend.

Basically, as with everything wacky in the world, blame punch cards.


----------



## dduitsman

Thanks dms and grump.

That's a good article - perhaps I'll absorb a bit more of what's being said here...

dd


----------



## Ed Campbell

Tom Robertson said:


> Japan has (had?) an analogue HD system in place for some time. I think they are moving to digital as well.


Japan started full conversion to digital HDTV quite a while ago. Final telecast of analog HDTV was last November.


----------



## DIRECTV-11

Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.

To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.

All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.

I will be in touch REAL SOON.


----------



## Steve Robertson

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


Thanks for checking in with an update and I love that word SOON:hurah:


----------



## njblackberry

Great to hear from you D-11!


----------



## mpar1

Great to hear from you, D11.


----------



## cforrest

Steve Robertson said:


> Thanks for checking in with an update and I love that word SOON:hurah:


As long as it is not an Echostar SOON, :lol: Can't wait to see some signal from D11, I guess in 2 weeks or so we should, based on the knowledgeable ones in this thread!


----------



## Steve Robertson

I hope it is real SOON looking forward to FNC in HD along with all the channels in the 70's going over to MPEG 4


----------



## njblackberry

grump said:


> Basically, as with everything wacky in the world, blame punch cards.


I hope they put sequence numbers in 73-80. That would stink if they dropped the deck for D-11.


----------



## Drew2k

Good to hear from you D-11, but .... what was up with April 30?! :lol:


----------



## PoitNarf

Perhaps we'll be getting channels from D11 before the end of this month?


----------



## Athlon646464

PoitNarf said:


> Perhaps we'll be getting channels from D11 before the end of this month?


See post #1924. Sixto's prognostications are why I visit this thread every day! 

(Yep - that's the biggest word I know :grin: )


----------



## doctor j

new TLE:



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08128.56647727 -.00000243  00000-0  00000+0 0   640
2 32729 000.0961 277.6345 0537286 284.3364 145.9844 00.99988741   602

Continued minor changes

Name	DIRECTV 11_64
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-07 13:35:43
Orbit # at Epoch	60
Inclination	0.096
RA of A. Node	277.635
Eccentricity	0.0537286
Argument of Perigee	284.336
Revs per day	0.99988741
Period	24h 00m 09s (1440.15 min)
Semi-major axis	42 244 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 596 x 38 136 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	145.984
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	64 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

Doctor j


----------



## ziltomil

Based on trends I predicted that orbit height would be 33610km x 38140km. 
I'm not far off, according to my prediction at this rate it can be parked 5/22, but on that date it would have drifted past 99W. If they step up the height adjustments they can make it by 5/17.

So, 5/17 - 5/22 it is.


----------



## katzeye

Drew2k said:


> Good to hear from you D-11, but .... what was up with April 30?! :lol:


I believe that news was from D-12.


----------



## harsh

In the earnings call today, DIRECTV representatives placed the in-service date in Q3.


----------



## Indiana627

harsh said:


> In the earnings call today, DIRECTV representatives placed the in-service date in Q3.


So July 1. 

Not too far off.


----------



## bobnielsen

njblackberry said:


> I hope they put sequence numbers in 73-80. That would stink if they dropped the deck for D-11.


I remember dropping a deck (a full box, actually). It wasn't pretty


----------



## tcusta00

harsh said:


> In the earnings call today, DIRECTV representatives placed the in-service date in Q3.


C-suite executives and anyone with any kind of information that could effect stock performance are extremely careful with their words - especially on those calls. If they say "End of Q2 to beginning of Q3" and it doesn't light up til Q3, watch the roller coaster ride the stock takes. If, on the other hand, they say "Q3" and it lights up at the end of Q2, everyone's happy and the stock continues on it's merry way.

I would suspect that Q3 is a very conservative estimate.


----------



## cartrivision

PoitNarf said:


> Perhaps we'll be getting channels from D11 before the end of this month?


Don't bet on it. Despite a few slightly more optimistic predictions made by others here (and despite a recent post directly from the satellite himself), it will soon be seen that my prediction of June 1st as the final arrival day is the most accurate. Given that, I wouldn't expect any actual channels coming from D11 to be available to subscribers before mid to late June, and possibly not until July.


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> In the earnings call today, DIRECTV representatives placed the in-service date in Q3.


Link?


----------



## bakers12

This link will take you to a summary. The first post has a link to the details.


----------



## man_rob

bakers12 said:


> This link will take you to a summary. The first post has a link to the details.


I saw nothing about the new satellite in that official DirecTV summery that was linked. I tried searching by keywords "third, 3rd, 3q, 11, d11, directv 11, directv11". Anyone have a link to an official DirecTV announcement that actually says this?


----------



## mhayes70

man_rob said:


> I saw nothing about the new satellite in that official DirecTV summery that was linked. I tried searching by keywords "third, 3rd, 3q, 11, d11, directv 11, directv11". Anyone have a link to an official DirecTV announcement that actually says this?


Look at Post #5 in that link.


----------



## man_rob

mhayes70 said:


> Look at Post #5 in that link.


 That is a forum member's post, not an official DirecTV announcement


----------



## Tom Robertson

The transcript will be available later today or tomorrow, I expect. Until then, you may have to rely upon several of us having heard the information. 

(And there should be a link to an archived version of the webcast soon too.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

Tom Robertson said:


> The transcript will be available later today or tomorrow, I expect. Until then, you may have to rely upon several of us having heard the information.
> 
> (And there should be a link to an archived version of the webcast soon too.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That's fine, but it's not unheard of that people get information wrong, or out of context on the internets.


----------



## Drew2k

katzeye said:


> I believe that news was from D-12.


Yeah, I know, but you'd think D-11 would have been in on the "plan" for whatever was supposed to have happened on the 30th.


----------



## Tom Robertson

man_rob said:


> That's fine, but it's not unheard of that people get information wrong, or out of context on the internets.


One can suppose such things, yet at some point the preponderance of evidence should tend to out way one' s personal feelings toward the validity of the persons doing the reporting or the information being reported.

I too heard what was reported. Their reporting has been spot on. DIRECTV-11 active in Q3. Woohoo!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

doctor j said:


> new TLE: ...


Yep, +138km ... still chugging along at that ~6km/hour, ~150km/day pace ... patience ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE64)
1 32729U 08013A   08128.56647727 -.00000243  00000-0  00000+0 0   640
2 32729 000.0961 277.6345 0537286 284.3364 145.9844 00.99988741   602

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-07-2008 13:35:43[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	60
Inclination		0.096
RA of A. Node		277.635
Eccentricity		0.0537286
Argument of Perigee	284.336
Revs per day		0.99988741
Period			24h 00m 09s (1440.15 min)
Semi-major axis		42 244 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 596 x 38 136 km[/B]
Element number / age	64 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) [B]33,596 x 38,136 km[/B] (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)
TLE#60 (05-03-2008 06:26:40) 32,976 x 38,782 km (+42.4 hours, at 44.5 days, +244km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


Great to hear from you D11.

We all have you settling into your new home the week after next.

Not so much by putting on the brakes, but rather coasting into place, nice and smooth at 6km per hour, with one last short easy burst at the end.

Keep up the communication.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> The transcript will be available later today or tomorrow ...


"We recently launched our newest satellite, which is expected to deploy in the third quarter for customers and will enable us to continue to drive forward and HD leadership. We currently have about 95 national channels and local HD in 77 markets, or about 76% of the U.S., so we will build on both of those once the satellite becomes active for customers."

The entire transcript:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/76201-directv-q1-2008-earnings-call-transcript?page=-1​


----------



## katzeye

Drew2k said:


> Yeah, I know, but you'd think D-11 would have been in on the "plan" for whatever was supposed to have happened on the 30th.


Yeah, had my hopes up too.


----------



## Indiana627

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


How did I miss this post yesterday?

I hate it when work gets in the way of important stuff...

(Glad to hear the update D-11. You can send a signal to my home anytime you want.)


----------



## rotomike

Here is a cut and paste from December 19th some 5 months ago. We will see how I did with my prediction.



> Originally Posted by rotomike
> Im going out on a limb here saying we(regular customer) wont see any HD feeds from D11 until at least June. We will look back at this thread to see how far off I am but my prediction is June 10th
> 
> Mike





> You very well could be right, give or take a few weeks into May or (hopefully not) into July.
> 
> Happy Holidays!
> Tom


----------



## mcbeevee

Indiana627 said:


> How did I miss this post yesterday?
> I hate it when work gets in the way of important stuff...
> (Glad to hear the update D-11. You can send a signal to my home anytime you want.)


Do you think D-11 will startup the same day as Indy 4...May 22?


----------



## Indiana627

mcbeevee said:


> Do you think D-11 will startup the same day as Indy 4...May 22?


I like the way you think! Maybe D11 will beam Indy IV directly to our homes in HD!


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Yep, +138km ... still chugging along at that ~6km/hour, ~150km/day pace ... patience ...


4000 miles/hour never seemed so slow!!!!


----------



## Sixto

TLE#65 ... +163km ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE65)
1 32729U 08013A   08129.13793914 -.00000219  00000-0  00000+0 0   658
2 32729 000.0918 277.0699 0515817 284.7988 351.3065 00.99720509   617

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		05-08-2008 03:18:37
Orbit # at Epoch	61
Inclination		0.092
RA of A. Node		277.070
Eccentricity		0.0515817
Argument of Perigee	284.799
Revs per day		0.99720509
Period			24h 04m 02s (1444.3 min)
Semi-major axis		42 320 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 759 x 38 125 km
Element number / age	65 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33 759 x 38 125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)
TLE#61 (05-05-2008 12:00:00) 33,276 x 38,434 km (+53.6 hours, at 46.8 days, +300km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## jefbal99

tuff bob said:


> 4000 miles/hour never seemed so slow!!!!


um, 6km/hour equates to 3.728 mph


----------



## katzeye

jefbal99 said:


> um, 6km/hour equates to 3.728 mph


I suspect they were referring to the GSO speed, no the rate of the transfer orbit.


----------



## bubbers44

I think they are getting serious now. Latest shows the most western drift of oscillation at 90 W and western drift at 2.3 degrees per day, 138 miles per day, so maybe in a week we will be in the very fine tuning portion of parking.


----------



## DCappy

Day 49.4, TLE#65, 13:42:54 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 163km and has 2,027km to go.
Apogee decreased 11km and has 2,339km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 154.7km per day or 6.4km per hour. A slight increase.

14.7 more days or Thursday, May 22 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## crashHD

Your avatar frightens me.


----------



## grump

crashHD said:


> Your avatar frightens me.


That's no avatar. That's a webcam.


----------



## Maruuk

So we should expect a dramatic expansion of HD-LILs within what, 2-4 months? Or more like 6+ months?


----------



## stoutman

I have no inside knowledge, but a huge marketing campaign will ensue in late Aug or early Sept. in advance of the new tv season. I would put a lot of money on it. I would say many, if not all D11, local markets would be on by then.


----------



## Indiana627

stoutman said:


> I have no inside knowledge, but a huge marketing campaign will ensue in late Aug or early Sept. in advance of the new tv season. I would put a lot of money on it. I would say many, if not all D11, local markets would be on by then.


Hey, my mom is from Marion! I haven't been there in years though. We used to go a lot when I was a kid to visit my two uncles, but they have since moved.

OK, Indy :backtotop


----------



## moonman

Perhaps, a little off-topic.... SeaLaunch..Preparations are now underway for the launch of Intelsat's Galaxy 18 communications satellite in May. Weighing 4,642 kg (10,234 lb), this satellite will enable Intelsat to provide advanced cable television, data and telecommunications services to customers throughout North America and Hawaii. Next up..EchoStar11 -in June ......
http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/


----------



## bakers12

Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)


----------



## computersecguy

bakers12 said:


> Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)


Check out http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729 it is ~ at 86 degrees west. I didn't check but it is using tle 65 which I think is nearly the most current. In any regards the window of +/- the final destination is slowly closing.

Are we there yet? - Sorry just had to do that


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08130.11767759 -.00000234  00000-0  00000+0 0   664
2 32729 000.0783 273.3389 0513891 289.7368 342.5123 00.99882596   622

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-09 02:49:27
Orbit # at Epoch	62
Inclination	0.078
RA of A. Node	273.339
Eccentricity	0.0513891
Argument of Perigee	289.737
Revs per day	0.99882596
Period	24h 01m 41s (1441.68 min)
Semi-major axis	42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 724 x 38 069 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	342.512
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	66 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Ken984

"current" position as of 1142 cdt today, according to orbitron

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	85.8658° W
Lat	0.0861° N
Alt (km)	38 041.830
Azm	165.4°
Elv	51.7°
RA	02h 14m 33s
Decl	-4° 52' 01"
Range (km)	39 234.110
RRt (km/s)	-0.031
Vel (km/s)	2.919
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	190.5° (135)
TA	189.5°
Orbit #	63
Mag (illum)	? (4%)
Constellation	Cet
2Sun
Azm	121.1°
Elv	65.0°
RA	03h 07m 49s
Decl	17° 35' 18"
Lon	71.4587° W
Lat	17.5838° N
Range (km)	151 051 434
Constellation	Ari
3Moon
Azm	70.5°
Elv	15.9°
RA	07h 23m 00s
Decl	24° 41' 47"
Lon	8.3072° W
Lat	25.1268° N
Range (km)	366 920
Illum	28%
Phase	Waxing crescent
Constellation	Gem


----------



## dms1

bakers12 said:


> Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)


Just download Orbitron and put in the current TLE. You can see real time tracking or do a simulation to judge the future location.


----------



## cartrivision

bakers12 said:


> Does anyone have an approximation as to D11's ground track? I'm wondering how far to the West it's drifted lately. The last time I looked, D11 was still over the Indian Ocean. (It's been a while.)


Check out the ground track picture here:

http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=32729&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CDT

Keep in mind that at times it is still moving in an easterly direction. It's a little hard to see, but there is a thicker white line along the equator which represents the ground track. As of today, it looks like it's moving back and forth in an 11 degree arc between about 80 and 91 degrees west.


----------



## bakers12

Thanks, cartrivision. I don't usually use that web site, but it has exactly what I was looking for. I had better bookmark that one.

I appreciate the input from you others, too.


----------



## DCappy

Day 50.4, TLE#66, 23:30:27 since the last TLE.

Perigee decreased 35km and has 2,062km to go.
Apogee decreased 56km and has 2,283km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.9km per day or 6.1km per hour. It slowed in the last 24 hours. They move it for two days and then let it orbit for a day.

15.2 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> new tle ...


the updated tracking with Ken984 ... yep, the perigee did go down ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE66)
1 32729U 08013A   08130.11767759 -.00000234  00000-0  00000+0 0   664
2 32729 000.0783 273.3389 0513891 289.7368 342.5123 00.99882596   622

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-09-2008 02:49:27[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	62
Inclination		0.078
RA of A. Node		273.339
Eccentricity		0.0513891
Argument of Perigee	289.737
Revs per day		0.99882596
Period			24h 01m 41s (1441.68 min)
Semi-major axis		42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 724 x 38 069 km[/B]
Element number / age	66 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) [B]33,724 x 38,069 km[/B] (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)
TLE#62 (05-06-2008 02:52:37) 33,440 x 38,444 km (+14.9 hours, at 47.4 days, +164km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## bubbers44

Does anyone know the strategy of decreasing the perigee at this time increasing the time to docking? Does it have something to do with making a circular orbit vs eliptical? It seems to be going the opposite direction. This is rocket science stuff so there must be a reason.


----------



## sat2631

Anything less than 100 km is probably just a measurement correction and not an actual satellite movement.


----------



## bubbers44

That might be why. Up to now everything was closing in on parking soon.


----------



## bobnielsen

I suspect that a lot of the posted changes have been measurement corrections.


----------



## richall01

It looks like DirecTV 11 is in "parking mode"?


----------



## MIAMI1683

richall01 said:


> It looks like DirecTV 11 is in "parking mode"?


why would you think that. all calculations point at atleast another week i believe.


----------



## richall01

MIAMI1683 said:


> why would you think that. all calculations point at atleast another week i believe.


Key word "parking" ready to move it to it's final location and when. Then when will we something from it? Three months seems like a long time to have it "parked"?


----------



## Athlon646464

richall01 said:


> Key word "parking" ready to move it to it's final location and when. Then when will we something from it? Three months seems like a long time to have it "parked"?


It's not parked - it's being moved a little at a time until it _is_ parked. Then it's about 2 weeks of testing, another 2 weeks of tweaking, and then maybe live. (Parked late May, Live around the end of June or early July.)


----------



## smiddy

I still can't wait!


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08130.82014367 -.00000234  00000-0  00000+0 0   673
2 32729 000.1095 267.4163 0450644 296.1218 234.4985 00.99892930   634

perigee +229 apogee -327km

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-09 19:41:00
Orbit # at Epoch	63
Inclination	0.109
RA of A. Node	267.416
Eccentricity	0.0450644
Argument of Perigee	296.122
Revs per day	0.99892930
Period	24h 01m 32s (1441.53 min)
Semi-major axis	42 271 km
Perigee x Apogee	33 988 x 37 798 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	234.498
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	67 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	90.9592° W
Lat	0.1073° S
Alt (km)	34 717.670
Azm	174.8°
Elv	51.9°
RA	10h 00m 20s
Decl	-5° 33' 13"
Range (km)	35 886.128
RRt (km/s)	-0.110
Vel (km/s)	3.157
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	310.2° (220)
TA	306.1°
Orbit #	64
Mag (illum)	? (59%)
Constellation	Sex
2Sun
Azm	289.6°
Elv	2.9°
RA	03h 13m 56s
Decl	18° 03' 51"
Lon	167.6471° E
Lat	17.9299° N
Range (km)	151 097 310
Constellation	Ari
3Moon
Azm	235.4°
Elv	69.8°
RA	08h 36m 37s
Decl	19° 47' 58"
Lon	111.0617° W
Lat	20.0203° N
Range (km)	369 645
Illum	42%
Phase	First quarter
Constellation	Cnc


----------



## jefbal99

Good movement, getting closer and closer


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> new tle ...


cool ... another 264km in 16.9 hours ... moving nicely!


Code:


[B]Projection: [/B]12.10 more days at day#63.19 (@6.19km/hour, past 18 TLE Avg)

DirecTV-11(TLE67)
1 32729U 08013A   08130.82014367 -.00000234  00000-0  00000+0 0   673
2 32729 000.1095 267.4163 0450644 296.1218 234.4985 00.99892930   634

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-09-2008 19:41:00[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	63
Inclination		0.110
RA of A. Node		267.416
Eccentricity		0.0450644
Argument of Perigee	296.122
Revs per day		0.99892930
Period			24h 01m 32s (1441.53 min)
Semi-major axis		42 271 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]33 988 x 37 798 km[/B]
Element number / age	67 / 1 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) [B]33,988 x 37,798 km[/B] (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)
TLE#63 (05-06-2008 15:49:00) 33,458 x 38,289 km (+12.9 hours, at 47.9 days, + 18km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

In the spreadsheet with the progress of DirecTV-11, have also been keeping a "past 18 TLE moving average" with arrival projection.

Figured would cut-paste here.

Been fairly consistent for the past few weeks ... also added it to the summary at each TLE.


Code:


[B]          Past-18
          Average     Days to      Day# / Date
[U]TLE# [/U]     [U]km/hour[/U]     [U]Arrival[/U]      [U] of Arrival [/U][/B]
52         6.03	       24.08	   63.81 (5/21)
53         5.22	       27.94	   69.08 (5/27)
54         5.76	       23.05	   64.93 (5/22)
55         6.28	       20.42	   62.62 (5/20)
56         6.35	       20.04	   62.49 (5/20)
57         6.08	       21.00	   63.64 (5/21)
58         5.92	       21.58	   64.30 (5/22)
59         6.08	       20.92	   63.69 (5/21)
60         6.06	       19.30	   63.84 (5/21)
61         6.27	       16.67	   63.44 (5/21)
62         6.31	       15.49	   62.88 (5/20)
63         6.28	       15.44	   63.37 (5/21)
64         6.08	       15.01	   63.85 (5/21)
65         6.64	       12.72	   62.13 (5/20)
66         5.91	       14.52	   64.91 (5/22)
67         6.19	       12.10	   63.19 (5/21)


----------



## DCappy

Day 51.1, TLE#67, 16:51:33 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 264km and has 1,798km to go.
Apogee decreased 271km and has 2,012km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 153.29km per day or 6.4km per hour. They move it for two days and then let it orbit for a day.

12.6 more days or Thursday, May 22 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## HelenWeathers

I'm getting readings on my receivers (H20-100) from what appears the be the 99b transponders and wonder if they are real and if anyone else is getting them. Here's what I'm seeing:

Satellite Transponders (6 Total at 99 (b))
1-8 0 84 0 68 0 76

I live in Maimi, Florida and have the Slimline 5 lnb dish.


----------



## computersecguy

Nope, the 99b is the existing satellite for I believe local spots. For H20 owners we should see a 99a or maybe depending on if they upgrade software to like the HR versions, it will be a 99(c) for conus.


----------



## JeffBowser

I have a 99S on my HR20, 0 95 0 84 0 96 in Boca. Nothing to do with D11, though.



HelenWeathers said:


> I'm getting readings on my receivers (H20-100) from what appears the be the 99b transponders and wonder if they are real and if anyone else is getting them. Here's what I'm seeing:
> 
> Satellite Transponders (6 Total at 99 (b))
> 1-8 0 84 0 68 0 76
> 
> I live in Maimi, Florida and have the Slimline 5 lnb dish.


----------



## HelenWeathers

I was under the impression that D11 was the 99 degree satellite and thought I might be getting readings from it already.


----------



## Jeremy W

HelenWeathers said:


> I was under the impression that D11 was the 99 degree satellite and thought I might be getting readings from it already.


D11 will be at 99 degrees when it's parked, but Spaceway 2 is already there doing spot beams, so that's what you're seeing.


----------



## HelenWeathers

Jeremy W said:


> D11 will be at 99 degrees when it's parked, but Spaceway 2 is already there doing spot beams, so that's what you're seeing.


Thanks, Jeremy. Now I understand the readings.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

HelenWeathers said:


> Thanks, Jeremy. Now I understand the readings.


To add to what Jeremy has already said when D11 starts sending us signals you will have another SAT reading in the list just like how SAT 103 has two.


----------



## Herdfan

Michael D'Angelo;1593658 said:


> when D11 starts sending us signals you will have another SAT reading in the list just like how SAT 103 has two.


And you won't be able to get onto DBSTalk as the server load will be peaked.


----------



## smiddy

Herdfan said:


> And you won't be able to get onto DBSTalk as the server load will be peaked.


Much like the signals...


----------



## Jeremy W

smiddy said:


> Much like the signals...


Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.


It might get interesting around here when D11 goes into service, or it might not. In other words, if D11 is used to load-balance some of the national HD channels and relieve D10, then a lot of folks are going to have to worry about 99(c) signals. On the other hand, if the very first use of D11 is to push out some more LIL HD channels to long-delayed DMAs, then 99(s) signals will be important but only in those target markets.

In reality, there will probably be a bit of both going on more or less simultaneously.


----------



## smiddy

Jeremy W said:


> Hopefully. When D10 lit up, a lot of people discovered that their signals were far from peaked.


Yeah, but I'm suspecting that the alignment was far from on axis. It will be similar for D11 until it gets tweaked into position and antennas are aligned. 



LameLefty said:


> It might get interesting around here when D11 goes into service, or it might not. In other words, if D11 is used to load-balance some of the national HD channels and relieve D10, then a lot of folks are going to have to worry about 99(c) signals. On the other hand, if the very first use of D11 is to push out some more LIL HD channels to long-delayed DMAs, then 99(s) signals will be important but only in those target markets.
> 
> In reality, there will probably be a bit of both going on more or less simultaneously.


The next few days should be interesting...I can't wait to see how it all unfolds.


----------



## doctor j

It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
"delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close

Doctor j


----------



## grump

doctor j said:


> It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
> Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
> "delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
> If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close
> 
> Doctor j


Or it could be that they let their engineers have the weekend off to go see their moms.


----------



## jefbal99

doctor j said:


> It's now almost 3 days since last TLE.
> Wonder if DirecTv/Boing is doing that:
> "delay TLE's till parked manuver " that they did with D-10 ??
> If no TLE today I'll be real suspicious that we're close
> 
> Doctor j


But with D10, the orbit was circular and they just had to move it from the testing slot to the broadcasting slot.

We've still got another ~10-14 days. I'm guessing we'll see a couple of TLEs today that indicate very little outside of the normal 150km/day that we have been seeing all along.

Slightly off topic, but i will be very interested in E*s launch of E11 from sea launch this summer. I want to see how fast they park it at for GSO. D* is going slow and steady, maybe charlie will play fast and loose


----------



## smiddy

jefbal99 said:


> Slightly off topic, but i will be very interested in E*s launch of E11 from sea launch this summer. I want to see how fast they park it at for GSO. D* is going slow and steady, maybe charlie will play fast and loose


If it were me, I'd be risk adverse considering the last satellite they went with.

D11 however is going at a slow pace which to us observers is maddening, but lessens the risks and is smart to do given the critical nature of this with regard to satellites.


----------



## Sixto

tle # 68 ... +123km ...



Code:


[B]Projection:[/B] 5/23/08 05:54am - 11.78 days at Day# 64.52 at 5.92km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE68)
1 32729U 08013A   08132.47049921 -.00000216  00000-0  00000+0 0   681
2 32729 000.1090 272.8315 0426910 292.2432 105.7588 00.99809762   643

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-11-2008 11:17:31[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	64
Inclination		0.109
RA of A. Node		272.832
Eccentricity		0.0426910
Argument of Perigee	292.243
Revs per day		0.99809762
Period			24h 02m 44s (1442.73 min)
Semi-major axis		42 295 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 111 x 37 722 km[/B]
Element number / age	68 / 1 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) [B]34,111 x 37,722 km[/B] (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)
TLE#64 (05-07-2008 13:35:43) 33,596 x 38,136 km (+21.8 hours, at 48.8 days, +138km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## tpm1999

The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.


----------



## MIAMI1683

tpm1999 said:


> The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.


----------



## feschiver

Dish just said they would have add them but not when:grin:


----------



## P Smith

feschiver said:


> Dish just said they would have add them but not when:grin:


OFF TOPIC !
Better if you'll continue here.


----------



## grump

tpm1999 said:


> The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.


Are you sure you don't have that last sentence backwards? When did Dish overtake Directv in number of HD channels?


----------



## smiddy

I don't think Dish has overtaken DirecTV yet, if they can at all. 

That being said, once D11 is available nothing will touch DirecTV for quite some time depending on the availability of HD content providers.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> I don't think Dish has overtaken DirecTV yet, if they can at all.
> 
> That being said, once D11 is available nothing will touch DirecTV for quite some time depending on the availability of HD content providers.


Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . . 

After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . .


Yep, I considered mentioning this but erred on the side that it would turn into a pissing match about HD-Lite and we all know where that goes! 



LameLefty said:


> After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.


I know I would be scrambling to make things competitive too if I were the owner of either sat caster. By what ever means needed to become numero uno!


----------



## bruinfever

LameLefty said:


> Of course, if they compress the bejesus out of the signal, they can still send something that will display at 720p or 1080i and call it "HD" . . .
> 
> After their misfortune with the launch of their most recent satellite (leased or not, they were still gonna use it), I don't know how else they could add a whole lot at this point.


I agree but I don't think DirecTV is going to change their slogan to the "Non-Compressed HD Leader." Though I care as much as anyone else to have the highest quality HD, in the end for PR purposes this makes DISH look good. 
I also don't understand how they could be adding so many channels considering their latest failed attempt to launch a satellite. If they had the capability all this time then why wouldn't they have capitalized on it earlier?


----------



## tpm1999

I just find it odd that directv would willingly risk losing the title of the hd leader by moving d11 so slowly. Now that dish has freed up bandwidth (bye skyangel) they could now take directv's crown.


----------



## DCappy

Day 52.7, TLE#68, 1 day, 39:36:57 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 123km and has 1,675km to go.
Apogee decreased 76km and has 1,936km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 147.8km per day or 6.2km per hour.

12.5 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

I have 17 spreadsheets, starting TLE#51 going thru TLE#68. 

4 - 20th
3 - 21st
7 - 22nd
1 - 23rd
2 - 24th


----------



## bruinfever

tpm1999 said:


> I just find it odd that directv would willingly risk losing the title of the hd leader by moving d11 so slowly. Now that dish has freed up bandwidth (bye skyangel) they could now take directv's crown.


I wouldn't be worried if they were lighting up D11 in a few weeks. But knowing how they operate they are going to check, recheck, and then check everything again (as they should) before they light it up, which means a minumum of 6-8 weeks before we see some results....:nono2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

bruinfever said:


> I wouldn't be worried if they were lighting up D11 in a few weeks. But knowing how they operate they are going to check, recheck, and then check everything again (as they should) before they light it up, which means a minumum of 6-8 weeks before we see some results....:nono2:


For a satellite using conventional transponder technologies, 4 weeks is usually plenty of time, if things go well. (And thinking positively, it will go great!) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

BTW, do expect another TLE soon (anon) ... #68 was from 11am yesterday ...


----------



## azarby

Sixto said:


> BTW, do expect another TLE soon (anon) ... #68 was from 11am yesterday ...


TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order

Bob


----------



## tpm1999

The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.

I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.


----------



## Sixto

tpm1999 said:


> The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.
> 
> I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.


Then in June they'll be a great announcement when they blow past the competition again!


----------



## Sixto

azarby said:


> TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order
> 
> Bob


Yep, was just letting everyone know that the "new" TLE was old. Now even older.


----------



## LameLefty

azarby said:


> TLE's happen when NASA decides to do them or when the sat operator tells them that they have made some orbital manuever and a TLE update is in order
> 
> Bob


NASA doesn't do them, except for their own vehicles (and even then they don't provide all the tracking assets used to generate them). They come from Space Command. 

But either way, this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!"


----------



## DodgerKing

tpm1999 said:


> The slow moving D11 has caused the crown to be passed...Dish just lit up their new HDs without a new sattelite. In this case it looks like there is a new king...for now.
> 
> I hope the new TLE shows D11 in its final position...aint gonna happen, but one can hope.


Not the new King yet. Direct still has about 8 more national HD than Dish.


----------



## Athlon646464

LameLefty said:


> this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!"


:icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da: :icon_da:


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> NASA doesn't do them, except for their own vehicles (and even then they don't provide all the tracking assets used to generate them). They come from Space Command.
> 
> But either way, this is what happened with D10 right around the time it was parked - irregular updates, then none for a couple days, and then "Here we are! TA DA!"


NORAD last I knew...


----------



## P Smith

Shouldn't be a question - just see who's assigning ID for that space objects.


----------



## Sixto

TLE# 69 ...


Code:


[B]Projection:[/B] 5/25/08 02:57am - 12.06 days at Day# 66.39 at 5.55km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE69)
1 32729U 08013A   08134.05795344 -.00000213  00000-0  00000+0 0   692
2 32729 000.1448 162.7434 0405381 042.0607 317.3004 00.99899037   663

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-13-2008 01:23:27[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	66
Inclination		0.145
RA of A. Node		162.743
Eccentricity		0.0405381
Argument of Perigee	42.061
Revs per day		0.99899037
Period			24h 01m 27s (1441.45 min)
Semi-major axis		42 270 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 178 x 37 605 km[/B]

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) [B]34 178 x 37 605 km[/B] (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34 111 x 37 722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)
TLE#65 (05-08-2008 03:18:37) 33,759 x 38,125 km (+13.7 hours, at 49.4 days, +163km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## steveken

Hehe, beat ya to it, Sixto..............................oh yeah, the ol' edit command. Well, I DID get the TLE up before him, he just edited his post. 



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08134.05795344 -.00000213  00000-0  00000+0 0   692
2 32729 000.1448 162.7434 0405381 042.0607 317.3004 00.99899037   663


----------



## LameLefty

U.S. Space Command is basically the main U.S. contribution to the NORAD agreement and organization.


----------



## Sixto

We're getting very close.

Also, not so sure that our projections mean much at this point because would expect a large jump or two and then be in place.

Post#2 has the Spaceway-1 and D10 history, and they both jumped a significant amount right before spending several days tweaking.

Also, the range is now 85 degrees to 95 for next day, then 87 to 97, ... closing in on 99 degrees!


----------



## Sixto

BTW, while km/hour projection is 5/25/08 02:57am, D11 will be passing thru 99.225 in 4 days ... still have a way to go with perigee/apogee but Orbitron (with current TLE) hits 99.225 on 5/16 at 4:45pm ET.

Will change based on adjustments but we're close .... very close ...


----------



## machavez00

99(c) hasn't shown up the signal strength screen yet. How long before it does?


----------



## Sixto

machavez00 said:


> 99(c) hasn't shown up the signal strength screen yet. How long before it does?


Early to mid-June.


----------



## Carl Spock

Almost there. This foreplay is killing me!

For those not following developements in this thread, it looks like somebody bought AMC-14 and is trying to save it. It's on the move right now, too, and pretty drastic ones compared to this teasing.


----------



## DCappy

Day 54.3, TLE#69, 1 day, 14:05:30 since the last TLE.

Perigee increased 67km and has 1,675km to go.
Apogee decreased 117km and has 1,936km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 141.1km per day or 5.9km per hour.

13 more days or Monday, May 26 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Slowed, less Perigee and more Apogee. Looks like maybe the Perigee was getting ahead of the Apogee.


----------



## smiddy

Currently it is at -86.84° and continues to move eastward.


----------



## Tom_S

tpm1999 said:


> The risk of going too slow has to be weighed against Dish being able to catch up on the total number of hd channels. As of today, because directv went too slow with D11, dish is the Hd channel leader.


You may want to do a re-count this morning. :lol:


----------



## bubbers44

smiddy said:


> Currently it is at -86.84° and continues to move eastward.


Actually it now moved to 87,45 W and is climbing through 23,035 so is presently westbound at .12mps.


----------



## smiddy

Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?


----------



## bubbers44

smiddy said:


> Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?


Anytime it is above 35,786 km (22,236miles) it will move west, below it will move east. Any orbit adjustment affects which way it drifts and how far.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Wow, yes it is at -88.2° and continues to move westward. This makes me wonder, does the change in perigee and apogee change the relative position where it will wobble from East to West and back West to East?


Yes, depending on the exact timing and duration of each burn. This process is called "phasing" - e.g., aligning the geometry of the orbit to correspond to the desired final position over the earth's surface.


----------



## DodgerKing

Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.


----------



## smiddy

Now it is at -90.79° and is above 37,609 km and is continuing to move westward...kewl. I also noticed that it is wobbling North to South and South to North but not as drastically. The scaring thing is now I am considering doing the math...

I can't recall if I read this in here or not, but I assume that the entire mission is planned to geostationary orbit. The burns are likely computer controlled and scripted, is that right?


----------



## smiddy

DodgerKing said:


> Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.


This clearly shows the convergence on the circular orbit, nice. Thanks!


----------



## Indiana627

DodgerKing said:


> Made a graph of the last few TLE#'s. It visually shows the movement.


This is a great visual aid!


----------



## Sixto

TLE #70 ... weird... same timestamp as #69 ... but +187km!


Code:


[B]Projection:[/B] 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE70)
1 32729U 08013A   08134.05795344 -.00000210  00000-0  00000+0 0   701
2 32729 000.0476 239.9952 0364056 322.7460 319.5041 00.99853895   660

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-13-2008 01:23:27[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	66
Inclination		0.048
RA of A. Node		239.995
Eccentricity		0.0364056
Argument of Perigee	322.746
Revs per day		0.99853895
Period			24h 02m 06s (1442.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 282 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 365 x 37 443 km[/B]
Element number / age	70 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) [B]34,365 x 37,443 km[/B] (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)
TLE#66 (05-09-2008 02:49:27) 33,724 x 38,069 km (+23.5 hours, at 50.4 days, - 35km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## DodgerKing

Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in. 

Here is the latest one with 70 added.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in.
> 
> Here is the latest one with 70 added.


Very nice Mr. King ... Nice addition to the group effort here!


----------



## bruinfever

bruinfever said:


> I also don't understand how they could be adding so many channels considering their latest failed attempt to launch a satellite. If they had the capability all this time then why wouldn't they have capitalized on it earlier?


Well, looks like D11 can take its time again. I got an answer from my question above...http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=128467


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

DodgerKing said:


> Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in.
> 
> Here is the latest one with 70 added.


Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?


----------



## HoTat2

DodgerKing said:


> Dangit, right after I create the graph a new TLE# comes in.
> 
> Here is the latest one with 70 added.


Boy&#8230;  ;

If one picture was worth a thousand words spoken on this thread to explain what's happening with D11's snail's pace positioning. This would have to be it.

This graph clearly shows D11's slow convergence toward a circular GSO target done in small burns at apogee and perigee to lower and raise them in small amounts respectively.

But then again I guess, what's the real hurry outside of the anxious folks here?

Thanks for posting this DodgerKing.


----------



## HelenWeathers

DodgerKing: (re the graph) Great Idea, Great Addition. I love visual aids!


----------



## DodgerKing

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?


I see it in your reply.


----------



## DCappy

Quote: Sixto, Post #2096

Projection: 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Projection: 5/23/08 02:24 PM - 10.6 days at Day#64.9 at 6.2km/hour. (past 26 TLE average) I’m using a combination of Perigee and Apogee averages.


Day 54.3, TLE#70.

Perigee increased 187km and has 1,421km to go.
Apogee decreased 161km and has 1,657km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 148.57km per day or 6.2km per hour.

10.6 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

I can understand the release of TLEs at odd intervals (because they release a TLE whenever they make an adjustment). But, identical time stamps? Or time stamps prior to the previous TLE? For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.


----------



## machavez00

It did not seem D10 took this long to be lit up. It it the anticipation?


----------



## mitoca

I did the same thing, only with the dates of the TLE's on the axis. I then extended out trendlines for the apogee and perogee to see when we would cross the magic number of 35,786 km. If I use a linear trend line I get 5/25. But if I use a polynomial I get 6/2. With each one the apogee lags the perogee (average altitude > 35786), I assume to move the sat westward. Now if I could only figure out how to post a graph I'd put it in here.


----------



## pault2727

I like the graph, but can you add three more lines? Target Height, Perigee Trend, and Apogee Trend. I duplicated your speadsheet and added those lines and got a convergence at the target height at TLE 84


----------



## Jeremy W

DCappy said:


> For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.


Boeing doesn't rely on TLEs to tell them where their satellites are at.


----------



## cartrivision

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Is there a reason I am not seeing this graph?


The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.


----------



## houskamp

DCappy said:


> Quote: Sixto, Post #2096
> 
> Projection: 5/23/08 02:34am - 10.05 days at Day#64.38 at 5.89km/hour (past 18 TLE average)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> My Projection: 5/23/08 02:24 PM - 10.6 days at Day#64.9 at 6.2km/hour. (past 26 TLE average) I'm using a combination of Perigee and Apogee averages.
> 
> Day 54.3, TLE#70.
> 
> Perigee increased 187km and has 1,421km to go.
> Apogee decreased 161km and has 1,657km to go.
> 
> Perigee gaining at an average of 148.57km per day or 6.2km per hour.
> 
> 10.6 more days or Friday, May 23 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.
> 
> I can understand the release of TLEs at odd intervals (because they release a TLE whenever they make an adjustment). But, identical time stamps? Or time stamps prior to the previous TLE? For a group of people that need to be very precise this seems to be a fundamental error.


Is it time for 2 polls? arrival and live?  :lol:


----------



## mitoca

OK, here's a modified version as an attachment


----------



## smiddy

Nice predictive approach mitoca. Is there a way to asymptotically smooth the two converging lines such that they meet less abruptly?


----------



## mcbeevee

machavez00 said:


> It did not seem D10 took this long to be lit up. It it the anticipation?


D10 took around 80 days to start broadcasting HD nationally. D11 is on day 55 now.


----------



## smiddy

-94 degrees and still moving westward.


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

cartrivision said:


> The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.


I should have known that. I am accessing this from my work computer, we do have a pretty thick firewall. Thanks!!


----------



## DCappy

Jeremy W said:


> Boeing doesn't rely on TLEs to tell them where their satellites are at.


TLEs are ment to tell "Others" where thier satilltes are at. Is this not the purpose of the TLE.


----------



## smiddy

If I am calculating right, by no means stationary, but DirecTV 11 should be at 99 degrees in about 5 hours. Though I don't know all the mechanics...so it is more of a WAG than anything.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Nice predictive approach mitoca. Is there a way to asymptotically smooth the two converging lines such that they meet less abruptly?


Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates.


So then when it gets to the convergence it will stop abruptly? Interesting...


----------



## LameLefty

DCappy said:


> TLEs are ment to tell "Others" where thier satilltes are at. Is this not the purpose of the TLE.


I think Jeremy's comment is a nice reminder that "weird" TLE sets and cases of probably post-hoc data massaging (to correct erroneous calculations or imprecise measurements) shouldn't be taken too seriously by us. We're just sideline observers after all. The sat drivers know where they are and where they are going much more accurately than a TLE can represent.

Remember, the TLE is just a data set designed to be plugged into a standard model of the earth and its local gravitational/atmospheric environment. The sat has an absolute position in space regardless of where the model says it is. Sat operators can derive that in real time based on differential GPS measurements, star trackers, telemetry timing, and (possibly) access to SPACECOM radar and optical tracking assets.


----------



## mitoca

LameLefty said:


> Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates.


Yeah, I figured this was just an "engineering estimate". I'm sure the timing changes a bit as they get closer. Just like when you parallel park your car, you don't keep in the same direction & speed as when you were driving down the street. It also doesn't factor in the position in relation to 99.


----------



## Tiger62

smiddy said:


> If I am calculating right, by no means stationary, but DirecTV 11 should be at 99 degrees in about 5 hours. Though I don't know all the mechanics...so it is more of a WAG than anything.


Nope. It won't get there today. In a couple of hours, more or less, it'll head back east.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> Well, in reality, this is not really an asymptotic function - the orbital changes are generally fairly discrete steps. So long as the current trend approximates a linear function, a straight line prediction should be accurate enough for our (amateur) estimates.


Actually it is somewhat asymptotic. I think that you will see that especially in the final weeks of maneuvers that it isn't linear and that the non-linear plot on that graph will be the closest to being correct.


----------



## smiddy

Ok, I'll keep watching.


----------



## Sixto

similar as last night with last TLE. 

99.225 (@36,611km) on 5/16 at 4:32pm ET.


----------



## gslater

Does anyone know what the current rate of westward drift is? Specifically when will it get to a point where it will drift over it's final orbital slot (99.225 I believe) and when will it get to a point where the center of East / West oscillation is over that spot. I'm wondering if they will maneuver to park it once it gets there or if they will let it drift until the center of oscillation is over that spot and then finish up circularizing the orbit to park it there.

Edit: Sixto you beat my question with part of the answer.


----------



## Sixto

gslater said:


> Does anyone know what the current rate of westward drift is? Specifically when will it get to a point where it will drift over it's final orbital slot (99.225 I believe) and when will it get to a point where the center of East / West oscillation is over that spot. I'm wondering if they will maneuver to park it once it gets there or if they will let it drift until the center of oscillation is over that spot and then finish up circularizing the orbit to park it there.


answered before the question!


----------



## gslater

Sixto said:


> answered before the question!


You must be psychic :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

It's like deja vu all over again...


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Actually it is somewhat asymptotic. I think that you will see that especially in the final weeks of maneuvers that it isn't linear and that the non-linear plot on that graph will be the closest to being correct.


For our purposes, however, that degree of precision does not matter. Recall how D10 was still "wobbling" around its test slot while it was actually being tested - in particular, the inclination was about two orders of magnitude greater than it ended up, if I recall correctly. As TLEs were released following the "parking", inclination crept downward.

Now, D11 may well be different - D10 was mostly testing national beams, at least at first. Spot aiming and fine-tuning will require greater orbital precision than testing national transponders. So testing may not even start until things are very "settled" so to speak. If that is the case, the function will be more asymptotic when plotted over time. But look at the scale involved - these are already pretty small maneuvers and eventually they will be judged "close enough" to get things going, even if smaller adjustments continue over time.


----------



## DodgerKing

cartrivision said:


> The graphic file is stored at photobucket.com which is blocked by many "work" firewalls. The poster of the graph (and anyone else who posts graphics or pictures here) should upload it to this message board as an attachment.


Here you go


----------



## Neural762

Based on DodgerKing's cool idea, here's another interesting chart from Excel. The green line is the target, the pink is the apogee, and the blue one is the perigee.

Click here to view -
View attachment 9261


----------



## DodgerKing

mitoca said:


> OK, here's a modified version as an attachment


Nice. Both linear and polynomial regression models shown...


----------



## JeffBowser

I last saw the word "polynomial" in college over 20 years ago. I did not ever want to see it again. No thanks to you guys.


----------



## JJJBBB

DodgerKing said:


> Here you go


nice.

(Someone said "polynomial" hehe...he!)

An expression consisting of the sum of two or more terms each of which is the product of a constant and a variable raised to an integral power: ax2 + bx + c is a polynomial, where a, b, and c are constants and x is a variable. - Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary -


----------



## P Smith

DodgerKing said:


> Here you go


Just an idea - add D10 trend and replace TLE## to date/time.


----------



## bubbers44

To us amateur observers it would seem like now that the orbit is close to final circular orbit a computer could figure out the final burn, angle, time and length to plop it at 99.225W at 22,236 miles at a tangent to the earth in two or three days and a few tweaks would finish the job. My second biggest concern is if we should watch the shuttle launch on the 31st from Satellite Beach at 30 miles on a private balcony or Titusville at 12 miles on the river with lots of traffic.


----------



## lowmazda

bubbers44 said:


> To us amateur observers it would seem like now that the orbit is close to final circular orbit a computer could figure out the final burn, angle, time and length to plop it at 99.225W at 22,236 miles at a tangent to the earth in two or three days and a few tweaks would finish the job. My second biggest concern is if we should watch the shuttle launch on the 31st from Satellite Beach at 30 miles on a private balcony or Titusville at 12 miles on the river with lots of traffic.


If you really need to hear the engines go to Titusville. Spaceview Park is a great place to watch. It's a Saturday at 5pm and you can bet that it will be packed. Anywhere along the beachs on the coast will be packed. Enjoy either way.


----------



## bubbers44

lowmazda said:


> If you really need to hear the engines go to Titusville. Spaceview Park is a great place to watch. It's a Saturday at 5pm and you can bet that it will be packed. Anywhere along the beachs on the coast will be packed. Enjoy either way.


You sold me on the condo with the balcony view. It is overwater viewing so we will miss the ground shaking and the engine noise but will get a great view of the ascent and contrail going up to orbit. I have seen it from the Keys and once flying an airliner in Cuban airspace turning a lot to let the passengers see the contrail on a day launch.

I know, back on topic. I'm sticking with my Apr 20th estimate of May 20th in position.


----------



## RAD

I did the KSC tour last week and a tip the guide mentioned was if you want to see a launch up close contact your congressperson and see if they can get you access to the VIP seating. It will either be by the big countdown clock or on the roof of the launch control building.


----------



## DCappy

Neural762 said:


> Based on DodgerKing's cool idea, here's another interesting chart from Excel. The green line is the target, the pink is the apogee, and the blue one is the perigee.
> 
> Click here to view -
> View attachment 13594


Great chart.:hurah:


----------



## smiddy

Derned thing is moving eastward again...I know I shouldn't look, it only makes me crazy with anticipation, but what else am I going to do? Homework?


----------



## Paul A

polyNOMINAL

OK, I know...

back to topic


----------



## bubbers44

smiddy said:


> Derned thing is moving eastward again...I know I shouldn't look, it only makes me crazy with anticipation, but what else am I going to do? Homework?


It's that east below 22,236 miles, west above thing that keeps it oscillating. In a few days we won't have to worry about that any more.


----------



## bruinfever

Wow...Not only does DBSTALK have rocket scientists but they Excel experts as well...I'm luck if I can create a simple spreadsheet let alone graphs that are mapping a satellite in space. :grin:


----------



## smiddy

bubbers44 said:


> It's that east below 22,236 miles, west above thing that keeps it oscillating. In a few days we won't have to worry about that any more.


I know, soon. I just can't wait, it's killing me.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> I know, soon. I just can't wait, it's killing me.


Yep, we'll be parked at the end of next week, few weeks to tweak/test/get some signal, then few more to some good HD ... then can focus back to the weekly adds to http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Once parked....I suspect they'll start the 30-day transponder tests.

After that point, in theory, they could start launching a channel or two, perhaps to test the new bird....local HD may come first before National channels...

Who knows....


----------



## pilotboy72

With D10, was there any news at any of the analyst meetings that discussed the expected life of the satellite after parking? Just wondering if we would expect the same with D11 -- maybe give some idea of how much fuel was used to park D11. Might be an interesting comparison if there's any information given.

Brian


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]Projection:[/B] 5/23/08 09:54pm - 9.36 days at Day#65.18 at 6.07km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE71)
1 32729U 08013A   08135.55600352 -.00000227  00000-0  00000+0 0   710
2 32729 000.0750 279.6920 0330462 282.6289 139.1148 01.00163799   673

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-14-2008 13:20:38[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	67
Inclination		0.075
RA of A. Node		279.692
Eccentricity		0.0330462
Argument of Perigee	282.629
Revs per day		1.00163799
Period			23h 57m 38s (1437.63 min)
Semi-major axis		42 195 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 423 x 37 211 km[/B]
Element number / age	71 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) [B]34 423 x 37 211 km[/B] (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, [B]+ 58km[/B])
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)
TLE#67 (05-09-2008 19:41:00) 33,988 x 37,798 km (+16.9 hours, at 51.1 days, +264km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Yep, we'll be parked at the end of next week, few weeks to tweak/test/get some signal, then few more to some good HD ... then can focus back to the weekly adds to http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


That is an awesome list sir! Yep, once it is parked and giving us glorious new HD, then we can be focused on being HD (*H*appy *D*udes!) :hurah:


----------



## DCappy

Day 55.8, TLE#71, 35:57:12 since last TLE (using past 27 TLE average).

Perigee increased 58km and has 1,363km to go.
Apogee decreased 232km and has 1,425km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 142.41km per day or 5.9km per hour.

9.7 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Apogee is catching up to Perigee in distance to go to target.


----------



## smiddy

Thanks DCappy! The anticipation is, well, you already know don't you?


----------



## CTJon

This, and the D10 threads are great to learn about orbital dynamics but sometimes hard to keep the thread. Is there a "parking a sat for dummies" book so those of us who can't even think of the dumb questions to ask can learn about this stuff. I think my last physics or math class was about the time of echo 1 (ok a couple of years later).


----------



## Villager

DCappy said:


> Day 55.8, TLE#71, 35:57:12 since last TLE (using past 27 TLE average).
> 
> Perigee increased 58km and has 1,363km to go.
> Apogee decreased 232km and has 1,425km to go.
> 
> Perigee gaining at an average of 142.41km per day or 5.9km per hour.
> 
> 9.7 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.
> 
> Apogee is catching up to Perigee in distance to go to target.


Also notice that the eccentricity is decreasing rapidly. It has gone from about 0.9 to about 0.033 in the past week or so. I understand that it has to go down to a very small number such as .00000xx plus/minus an order of magnitude.


----------



## LameLefty

Villager said:


> Also notice that the eccentricity is decreasing rapidly. It has gone from about 0.9 to about 0.033 in the past week or so. I understand that it has to go down to a very small number such as .00000xx plus/minus an order of magnitude.


Once the orbital period is correct, inclination is the next most important factor. For national beams, a little bit of north-south wobble due to inclination isn't much of a big deal but for spot beams it could be an issue.

Eccentricity just measures how close to a circle the orbit is. Once D11 reaches the ideal period, it will be circular.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> similar as last night with last TLE.
> 
> 99.225 (@36,611km) on 5/16 at 4:32pm ET.


Very interesting ...

With today's TLE, 99.225 now happens on 5/24 at 6:06pm ET but with almost perfect altitude of 35,711km.

Also, the TLE projection from earlier put us there on 5/23 without relationship to 99.225 degrees (just using the 6 km/hour).

All the stars are aligning ... be there at the end of next week ... unless of course they make some other adjustment.


----------



## smiddy

Either way it is 8 or 9 days...very kewl!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

What's nice is that publically (at the investor meeting yesterday), DirecTV is now saying that D11 will be providing additional channels "this summer" instead of the previous description of "some time beginning in September".

While this may appear to be a subtle difference, it also reinforces that things are going smoothly so far, and enough information is inhouse about D11 to have confidence it will go live in the next 90-100 days.

All good news.


----------



## say-what

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What's nice is that publically (at the investor meeting yesterday), DirecTV is now saying that D11 will be providing additional channels "this summer" instead of the previous description of "some time beginning in September".
> 
> While this may appear to be a subtle difference, it also reinforces that things are going smoothly so far, and enough information is inhouse about D11 to have confidence it will go live in the next 90-100 days.
> 
> All good news.


Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:

I'm hoping for sooner.....


----------



## smiddy

I think DirecTV is taking a persimestic approach to DirecTV 11's inception. Which I think is a good thing...even if one find September to be a long way off, I think it will be a little bit sooner than September...competitive pressure may prevail in that regard.  Unless Dish is tapped out...only time will tell.


----------



## bruinfever

say-what said:


> Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:
> 
> I'm hoping for sooner.....


For DirecTV to light it up in September would mean that D11 would basically do nothing for a minumum of two months, taking into account they do extensive testing for four weeks. It seems highly unlikely, as I'm sure they want to suck the air out of DISH's PR campaign of new HD channels.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

say-what said:


> Well, summer does run from June 21 to Sept. 21 (fall begins Sept 22). So it could still be sometime in September. :grin:
> 
> I'm hoping for sooner.....


Its important to add that the question was answered in response to the specific "September" original reference.....meaning that if things continue as they have, it may very well be sooner.


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]Projection:[/B] 5/24/08 05:17am - 8.7 days at Day#65.49 at 5.62km/hour (past 18 TLE average)

DirecTV-11(TLE72)
1 32729U 08013A   08136.51557854 -.00000209  00000-0  00000+0 0   726
2 32729 000.0702 280.3446 0292308 283.1741 123.3917 01.00067488   685

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-15-2008 12:22:25[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	68
Inclination		0.070
RA of A. Node		280.345
Eccentricity		0.0292308
Argument of Perigee	283.174
Revs per day		1.00067488
Period			23h 59m 01s (1439.2 min)
Semi-major axis		42 222 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 610 x 37 078 km[/B]
Element number / age	72 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) [B]34 610 x 37 078 km[/B] (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34 423 x 37 211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)
TLE#68 (05-11-2008 11:17:31) 34,111 x 37,722 km (+39.6 hours, at 52.7 days, +123km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## MrDad0330

I was also thinking that with Dish boasting 95 HD channels, I would think D will light D11 up soon after the 4 weeks of testing. By your calculations of parking in about 9-10 days, the testing period would be complete in late June. Maybe a 4th of July spasm of new HD channels to counteract Dish now claiming the same number of HD channels as D. 
Anyway, early July should be plenty of time to "get r done" I cant wait..


----------



## Newshawk

MrDad0330 said:


> I was also thinking that with Dish boasting 95 HD channels,


Dish can only boast of 80 HD channels since the took the entire Voom suite down.



MrDad0330 said:


> I would think D will light D11 up soon after the 4 weeks of testing.


It's possible that DirecTV will react to Dish's addition of new HD channels, but DirecTV has in the past been more of an leader, not a reactor. Only time will tell.



MrDad0330 said:


> Maybe a 4th of July spasm of new HD channels to counteract Dish now claiming the same number of HD channels as D.


Actually, July 4th would be the worst time to light up new channels. It's a holiday-a time when most people are outside enjoying activities away from the TV. Also, the 4th is on a Friday. Putting aside the DirecTV convention of launching new channels on Wednesday, going into a weekend is just not a good time to launch new channels. A holiday weekend is even worse. You wouldn't get any publicity for it four at least four days.



MrDad0330 said:


> Anyway, early July should be plenty of time to "get r done" I cant wait..


We all are anxious to see new HD channels light up.


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest excel graph of D11


----------



## DCappy

Day 56.8, TLE#72, 23:01:47 since last TLE (using past 28 TLE average).

Perigee increased 187km and has 1,176km to go.
Apogee decreased 133km and has 1,292km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 144.23km per day or 6.0km per hour.

8.6 more days or Saturday, May 24 to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

Think Sixto nailed it in Post #2157.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.


----------



## JeffBowser

Ugh. Don't bring that name up. That guy isn't right in the head.:lol:



wilbur_the_goose said:


> Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.


----------



## Steve Robertson

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Where's EaglePC? Remember him from the D10 lightup? I think he was the first to report getting a signal.


Wow a blast from the past man that guy was funny


----------



## StanO

Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch? 

Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.


----------



## man_rob

StanO said:


> Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch?
> 
> Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.


According to Engadget HD, it took 81 days.


----------



## mcbeevee

I posted this a couple of days ago...D11 is now on day 57:



mcbeevee said:


> D10 took around 80 days to start broadcasting HD nationally. D11 is on day 55 now.


Maybe we need a timer with the days passed since D11 was launched.


----------



## RAD

man_rob said:


> According to Engadget HD, it took 81 days.


A IIRC there was a few added days delay due to the spotbeam issue that D* reported.


----------



## azarby

We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.

Bob


----------



## Steve Robertson

azarby said:


> We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.
> 
> Bob


I think D* is set up for auto pay with Boeing


----------



## DCappy

StanO said:


> Does anyone remember how long it took D10 to go live after it's launch?
> 
> Sorry, I was not around the boards when it launched. Started in September '07.


A little history on DirecTV 10:

July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.
Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.
Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.
Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.

I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.

There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don't think we will have that problem this time.


----------



## gslater

bruinfever said:


> For DirecTV to light it up in September would mean that D11 would basically do nothing for a minumum of two months, taking into account they do extensive testing for four weeks. It seems highly unlikely, as I'm sure they want to suck the air out of DISH's PR campaign of new HD channels.


I'm not sure how the money flows in these situations but it seems reasonable to assume that after Boeing hands things over the satellite starts costing DirecTV money (probably some before hand as well due to ground equipment and personnel). Seems like a good portion of those costs will be fixed regardless of whether the sat is in use or not. From that standpoint, it would make sense that they would want to start getting a return on that investment in the way of new subs and the best way to do that is to light up new local markets. I just can't see them putting that off once everything is tested and ready to go.


----------



## RAD

azarby said:


> We need to rememer that DTV can't start testing until they pay the bill and Boeing hands over the keys.
> 
> Bob


Dr. Malone put it on his new DirecTV Mastercard and is trying to figure out what to do with all his DirecTV points


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> A little history on DirecTV 10:
> 
> July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.
> Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.
> Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.
> Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.
> 
> I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.
> 
> There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don't think we will have that problem this time.


DCappy summarized it well ....

A few differences with D10 vs D11:
D10 was the first CONUS Ka HD. At the time, it seemed like there was new infrastructure (on the ground and in space) being implemented for the first time. Yep, the Spaceway's had Ka HD, but it appeared that there were new technologies used to distribute the first CONUS Ka HD. Should have very little of this (if any) with D11.

D10 had a special test location, so it needed to be parked twice. All indications are that D11 will go straight to the final location of 99.225.

As DCappy mentioned, there were problems with the D10 spotbeams. Hopefully (!), no issues with D11.

There was a delay with turning on the new channels which caused delay from 9/19 to 9/26. Problem was authorizing receivers for the new national HD.


As long as there are no unexpected issues, D11 should take a few weeks less then D10, once parked.


----------



## azarby

RAD said:


> Dr. Malone put it on his new DirecTV Mastercard and is trying to figure out what to do with all his DirecTV points


!rolling :icon_lol:

Bob


----------



## bruinfever

Since D10 parked in roughly 40 days why is it roughly 60 days for D11 before it will park?


----------



## Sixto

bruinfever said:


> Since D10 parked in roughly 40 days why is it roughly 60 days for D11 before it will park?


The theory is that a slower path was selected for D11 to conserve fuel for a longer lifespan. D10 was needed asap, not the same with D11.

The process used to move to a geostationary orbit for D10 and D11 is similar, but D10 started at a 34,000km altitude, while D11 started at 29,000km, before the gradual climb. Post#2 contains the detailed D10 vs D11 comparison.


----------



## smiddy

DodgerKing said:


> Latest excel graph of D11


Nice, thanks. You can certainly tell where they made adjustments, eh?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> The theory is that a slower path was selected for D11 to conserve fuel for a longer lifespan. D10 was needed asap, not the same with D11.
> 
> The process used to move to a geostationary orbit for D10 and D11 is similar, but D10 started at a 34,000km altitude, while D11 started at 29,000km, before the gradual climb. Post#2 contains the detailed D10 vs D11 comparison.


Not only makes sense from a technical perspective, but also from a business one.


----------



## LameLefty

Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.


----------



## tpm1999

figuratively


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.


Yep Lefty, agreement here.

Thought about how to phrase it, then decided on "The theory is ..." because really not sure.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Another factor to consider - these satellites were launched using two different boosters. Despite D11's advantage from Sea Launch's equatorial launch latitude, the Proton-Breeze M booster used for D10 and the Zenit 3SL+Blok DM booster are fundamentally different launchers, with different payload-to-orbit characteristics and mission profiles. Without detailed spacecraft mass and launch trajectory data for each it's hard to compare the two. It literally is an apples-to-oranges comparison.


Is the fuel the same for each booster or are they entirely different too?


----------



## jkast

OK... Need a rocket scientist for this question in the form of an assertion:

1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.

2) It takes a specific amount of energy to raise a satellite to a specific orbit... the same amount of energy whether expended slowly or quickly.

3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...

I know there are fine tuning points, but would like to know if 1, 2 and 3 above are basically correct....


----------



## crashHD

jkast said:


> 1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.


<not a rocket scientist>
A rocket increases in efficiency as it moves faster. The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.
</not a rocket scientist>


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Is the fuel the same for each booster or are they entirely different too?


Zenit is LOX (liquid oxygen) and kerosene, while Proton is N2O4/UDMH (which is: nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer, unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine as the fuel). And let me just say, those Proton propellants are some nasty stuff. The fallen stages, way down on the Asian steppes, are pretty highly toxic.


----------



## LameLefty

crashHD said:


> <not a rocket scientist>
> A rocket increases in efficiency as it moves faster. The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.
> </not a rocket scientist>


Er, um . . . no. 

The exhaust velocity is relative to the motion of the rocket, regardless of whether it's sitting still on the pad or moving very quickly. So it doesn't really matter how fast the spacecraft is moving to start with. There are other efficiency issues at play, however. Rocket engines are typically more efficient at altitude or in orbit than they are at launch due to atmospheric pressure impeding the expansion of the exhaust gases and thus reducing exhaust velocity. But at altitude, you typically have only a finite space inside the launch vehicle to store the engine bell(s). At altitude or in orbit, your exhaust nozzle should ideally be much wider and longer than you can often fit into a vehicle fairing for the "ideal" expansion of the exhaust, so you have to compromise to get it as close to ideal as possible. Et cetera .... there are many types of issues like these to be considered in designing space vehicles.


----------



## LameLefty

jkast said:


> OK... Need a rocket scientist for this question in the form of an assertion:
> 
> 1) A rocket is at it's peak efficiency while burning. But efficiency is LOST for a slight while during ignition. So a series of short burns is LESS efficient in its use of fuel than a single longer duration burn.


Yeah, but ... the ignition transients are typically very short, especially for a well-designed engine. There's really not much practical difference. FWIW, the RCS thrusters of the space shuttle can fire for as short as 800 milliseconds.



> 2) It takes a specific amount of energy to raise a satellite to a specific orbit... the same amount of energy whether expended slowly or quickly.


Yes, in an ideal case. However, there are often engineering aspects to the issue: navigation through the GSO "belt" to avoid interfering with other spacecraft as you shape your orbit, being in range of tracking and telemetry sites for certain spacecraft operations, being able to have your solar arrays deployed during maneuvering might restrict you to short, low-thrust burns, and the engines might subject the spacecraft to vibrational or thermal conditions which must not exceed a certain duration. Heck, the engines themselves might not be designed to burn for very long before requiring a cool-down period. Again, there are many considerations involved.



> 3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...


Ideally, yes.


----------



## crashHD

LameLefty said:


> Er, um . . . no.
> 
> The exhaust velocity is relative to the motion of the rocket, regardless of whether it's sitting still on the pad or moving very quickly. So it doesn't really matter how fast the spacecraft is moving to start with.


I wasn't talking about the exhaust velocity. The velocity relative to the motion can stay the same, but the energy imparted can change, based on velocity.



wikipedia said:


> Rocket engines produce the same force regardless of their velocity. A rocket acting on a fixed object, as in a static firing, does no useful work at all; the rocket's stored energy is entirely expended on its propellant. But when the rocket and payload move, the force applied to the payload by the rocket during any time interval acts through the distance the rocket and payload move during that time. Force acting through a distance is the definition of mechanical energy or work. So the farther the rocket and payload move during any given interval, i.e., the faster they move, the greater the kinetic energy imparted to the payload by the rocket. (This is why rockets are seldom used on slow-moving vehicles; they're simply too inefficient.)
> 
> Energy is still conserved, however. The additional energy imparted to the payload is exactly matched by a decrease in energy imparted to the propellant being expelled behind the rocket because the speed of the rocket subtracts from the propellant exhaust velocity. But we don't care about the propellant, so the faster we can move during a rocket burn, the better.


I know that is just wikipedia, and as such should be taken with a grain of salt,but the principle seems to jive with my physics experience. If you can see where this is in error, please point it out. My physics is a little rusty, and I'd have to dig out the big book to find the equations that give the definitive answer.


----------



## LameLefty

crashHD said:


> I wasn't talking about the exhaust velocity. The velocity relative to the motion can stay the same, but the energy imparted can change, based on velocity.


Actually, you were, in the post I was replying to. You said:



> The faster it is moving, the more kinetic energy transferred to the rocket, and the less to the exhaust.


That was what I was replying to.

Now, as to the rest, that's true but you have to realize that efficiency of a rocket can be measured in different ways. For one specific use of a rocket mtor (e.g., lifting off a planetary surface at the bottom of a deep gravity well or attitude control of a GSO spacecraft or trajectory control of a long-duration interplanetary probe ...) one might say a rocket is very efficient, but if that rocket was applied to another use it might be relatively inefficient.

In other words, yes, a XIPS engine is incredibly efficient because a very small amount of propellant, accelerated to incredibly high velocity and producing usable thrust over the course of years' of operation could generate a very high dela-V. If I had 15 years to wait and don't need to escape from deep inside a planetary gravity well. Whereas a LOX/kerosene engine might only burn for 7 minutes and produce a few thousand feet per second delta-V but it might be producing half a million pounds of thrust and moving a vehicle that starts off weighing 350,000 pounds. No, compared directly to one another, that LOX/kerosene engine isn't very efficient. But at the same time, it's probably very COST efficient because it's cheap to build, cheap to fuel and operate, and it does the job relatively reliably. And it produces enough raw power for get the job done under those circumstance, something an ion engine could not.

By comparison, a Delta IV uses LOX/LH2 for its propellants. That burns at much higher efficiency (going from memory, the ISP is about 30% higher for LOX/LH2 as for LOX/kerosene) and good thrust.  However, LH2 is not very dense, so it requires longer, heavier structures to carry it. It is way more cryogenic than LOX and requires a lot of special handling and ground equipment to fuel, service and prep for launch, etc. So consequently, the Delta IV's RS68 engine, while very efficient in terms of how much velocity change it can impart per unit of fuel, is very cost-ineffective in terms of putting satellites in orbit, operationally.

Ugh . . . this is too much thinking for a Friday morning before my first cup of coffee . . .


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Ugh . . . this is too much thinking for a Friday morning before my first cup of coffee . . .


I'm gonna need something a bit stronger to understand all this...  :lol:


----------



## gslater

Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist so what I say is from a laymans point of view and I welcome corrections if required.

There are a couple of things to consider here. The efficiency of the thruster and the efficiency of the burn. I don't believe they are the same thing. The thruster will impart energy on a vector based on the direction of thrust during the burn. Over the course of the burn that direction will change unless the burn vector is modified throughout the burn and I don't think this is what happens. So in a short burn you would get higher efficiency because the thrust vector is very close to what you want it to be. In a longer burn, youre thrust vector would vary and so you would actually waste some fuel by having the spacecraft pointed slightly off angle at the beginning and end of the burn.


----------



## DodgerKing

gslater said:


> Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist...


But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Hotel last night. :lol:


----------



## gslater

DodgerKing said:


> But, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Hotel last night. :lol:


Who knows. Lame Lefty may come back and tell me I'm delusional. If so I welcome the criticism. I'm married so I'm used to it :grin:


----------



## DodgerKing

gslater said:


> Who knows. Lame Lefty may come back and tell me I'm delusional. If so I welcome the criticism. I'm married so I'm used to it :grin:


Nothing against you or your statement. Just thought that line fit well with the first part of you first sentence.


----------



## gslater

DodgerKing said:


> Nothing against you or your statement. Just thought that line fit well with the first part of you first sentence.


No offense taken, and if you ask people that know me, most of them would say that I am delusional on a regular basis as well!!!:nono2:


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> Ok. Let me preface this with the fact that I'm not a rocket scientist so what I say is from a laymans point of view and I welcome corrections if required.
> 
> There are a couple of things to consider here. The efficiency of the thruster and the efficiency of the burn. I don't believe they are the same thing. The thruster will impart energy on a vector based on the direction of thrust during the burn. Over the course of the burn that direction will change unless the burn vector is modified throughout the burn and I don't think this is what happens. So in a short burn you would get higher efficiency because the thrust vector is very close to what you want it to be. In a longer burn, youre thrust vector would vary and so you would actually waste some fuel by having the spacecraft pointed slightly off angle at the beginning and end of the burn.


That is true if the spacecraft does not modify its attitude during the burn. The most efficient burn is made tangent to the velocity vector. And of course, in an ideal world, the velocity change would be instantaneous (which is what you assume for quick and dirty "back of the envelope" calculations). In the real world to compute the planned maneuvers and simulate them you have to break it down into discrete time-wise steps and calculate iteratively - for each instance of time, you calculate the mass change due to fuel burn and the velocity change over that time due to the burn acting on the current mass. The smaller each time slice the more precise the calculations (and of course the longer the calculations take to simulate each maneuver).

But at any rate, for longer duration burns lasting several minutes and longer, most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.


----------



## dms1

jkast said:


> 3) There is a need to shape an orbit... but you can adjust perigee with a burn at apogee and change the apogee with a burn at perigee so, within reasonalbe parameters, two burns gets you to the circular orbit of your choice with the LEAST waste of fuel...


True, but how would you explain to your boss (and customer) that you just lost the satellite because its orientation was slightly off before you commenced a massive burn and it's now winging its way towards Saturn?


----------



## gslater

LameLefty said:


> But at any rate, for longer duration burns lasting several minutes and longer, most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.


Would that be through the use of XIPS? Because then you still have the same situation. Either you lose efficiency due to an "average" attitude throughout the burn or due to fuel expended to maintain attitude. So then even if a long burn and short burn were equally efficient as far as the thrusters and the thrust imparted were concerned, the overall efficiency of the burn would be best with many small burns as opposed to large burns. The difference may not be materially significant but I can see where there would be one.


----------



## Tiger62

LameLefty said:


> ...most spacecraft do have active attitude control during the burns to ensure they remain pointed properly.


MOST?? Shirley, ye jest!


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> Would that be through the use of XIPS? Because then you still have the same situation. Either you lose efficiency due to an "average" attitude throughout the burn or due to fuel expended to maintain attitude. So then even if a long burn and short burn were equally efficient as far as the thrusters and the thrust imparted were concerned, the overall efficiency of the burn would be best with many small burns as opposed to large burns. The difference may not be materially significant but I can see where there would be one.


I suspect attitude control is through CMG (control-moment gyros) which are later desaturated by XIPS but I do not know this for a fact. XIPS is incredibly efficient but very low thrust. I just can't see it doing much brute-force type work in a several-thousand-pound spacecraft. CMGs would be ideal for this. When they become saturated, routine long-duration XIPS burns could desaturate them effectively. There is plenty of fuel aboard to handle this sort of thing. I think the current burns are still being made with the hydrazine apogee motors.

Once in stable operation the spacecraft is tall enough to actually get some help from gravity-gradient effects but not so tall that those would predominate.


----------



## LameLefty

Tiger62 said:


> MOST?? Shirley, ye jest!


I try to not to state things in absolutes lest someone dig up an obscure space project out of the depths of Encyclopedia Astronautica or something.


----------



## steveken

And don't call him Shirley.


----------



## gslater

LameLefty said:


> I suspect attitude control is through CMG (control-moment gyros) which are later desaturated by XIPS but I do not know this for a fact. XIPS is incredibly efficient but very low thrust. I just can't see it doing much brute-force type work in a several-thousand-pound spacecraft. CMGs would be ideal for this. When they become saturated, routine long-duration XIPS burns could desaturate them effectively. There is plenty of fuel aboard to handle this sort of thing. I think the current burns are still being made with the hydrazine apogee motors.
> 
> Once in stable operation the spacecraft is tall enough to actually get some help from gravity-gradient effects but not so tall that those would predominate.


Ok. You stick with the Rocket Scientist stuff and I'll stick to computer programming. It makes a whole lot more sense to me than most your statement. My brain is starting to hurt.


----------



## gregjones

OK, I will take this as a hint. Encore HD was announced this week to start broadcasting (again) in July. What are the odds that this Malone-owned entity is timed to be released on D11?


----------



## Tiger62

LameLefty said:


> I try to not to state things in absolutes lest someone dig up an obscure space project out of the depths of Encyclopedia Astronautica or something.


Gotcha  As an engineer/former rocket scientist, it was just difficult to fathom a thruster burn without active attitude control!


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> Ok. You stick with the Rocket Scientist stuff and I'll stick to computer programming. It makes a whole lot more sense to me than most your statement. My brain is starting to hurt.


Sorry! 

A CMG is basically a gyroscope type thing with motors attached. Ever push on a gyroscope and see how it tilts in at an angle to the force? A set of these things mounted appropriately to the structure of the spacecraft can be used to turn or orient the spacecraft in three dimensions as they are acted upon differentially. They can also be spun up to sort of absorb outside forces acting on the spacecraft in order to keep it stable.

However, these are fixed masses, there is friction in the system (so they cannot spin forever) and it takes energy to keep them spinning. Simplifying (and with the caveat that I haven't studied these in depth since college twenty years ago) they can only absorb so much momentum before they have to be "desaturated." Momentum stored in the rotating mass of the CMG must be transferred - this is where thrusters come in, usually. They are fired as the momentum is bled of the CMGs slowly.

Anyway, the Wikipedia article on this is brief but appears at first glance to be basically correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Moment_Gyroscope

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## gslater

LameLefty said:


> Anyway, the Wikipedia article on this is brief but appears at first glance to be basically correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Moment_Gyroscope
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.


Good information. Still a little over my head but I understand the general idea.

Thanks for the info.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Zenit is LOX (liquid oxygen) and kerosene, while Proton is N2O4/UDMH (which is: nitrogen tetroxide as the oxidizer, unsymmetrical dimethyl hydrazine as the fuel). And let me just say, those Proton propellants are some nasty stuff. The fallen stages, way down on the Asian steppes, are pretty highly toxic.


One whiff of hydrazine you might as well kiss your caboose good bye.  Thanks for the information.


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08137.78788299 -.00000196  00000-0  00000+0 0   731
2 32729 000.0637 272.1434 0250128 291.0198 221.9941 01.00047843   704

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-16 18:54:33
Orbit # at Epoch	70
Inclination	0.064
RA of A. Node	272.143
Eccentricity	0.0250128
Argument of Perigee	291.020
Revs per day	1.00047843
Period	23h 59m 18s (1439.30 min)
Semi-major axis	42 228 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 793 x 36 906 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	221.994
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	73 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

perigee plus 183km
apogee minus 172 km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


[B]Past 5 TLE Projection:[/B] 5/22/08 07:18pm - 6.02 days at Day#64.07 at 6.87km/hour
[B]Past 18 TLE Projection:[/B] 5/24/08 07:48am - 7.54 days at Day#65.60 at 5.48km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE73)
1 32729U 08013A   08137.78788299 -.00000196  00000-0  00000+0 0   731
2 32729 000.0637 272.1434 0250128 291.0198 221.9941 01.00047843   704

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-16-2008 18:54:33[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	70
Inclination		0.064
RA of A. Node		272.143
Eccentricity		0.0250128
Argument of Perigee	291.020
Revs per day		1.00047843
Period			23h 59m 18s (1439.30 min)
Semi-major axis		42 228 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 793 x 36 906 km[/B]
Element number / age	73 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) [B]34,793 x 36,906 km[/B] (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, [B]+183km[/B])
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)
TLE#69 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,178 x 37,605 km (+38.1 hours, at 54.3 days, + 67km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## steveken

I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> One whiff of hydrazine you might as well kiss your caboose good bye.  Thanks for the information.


It might just turn you green...............oh...................now I get it.


----------



## P Smith

steveken said:


> I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?


I would keep Sixto's posts as one source of TLE and forecast.


----------



## Ken984

I just try to help Sixto out, tles can come at any time. He has done an amazing job keeping all the information up to date in the second post.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> I just try to help Sixto out, tles can come at any time. He has done an amazing job keeping all the information up to date in the second post.


Yep, love the teamwork!


----------



## DCappy

steveken said:


> I am beginning to think we need one designated person to post the TLE's up here. I am guilty of posting them up when they are already posted, too. I just figure there isn't a need for 3 or 4 posts with relatively the same information in it. If we could combine the differences into one post, that would be great. Less clutter would help I think around here. What do you guys think?


I'll defer to Sixto.


----------



## bubbers44

About 1.000 km to go apogee and perogee so who ever posts first doesn't matter. We are on the home stretch. Thanks to all that contributed. It has been an education for me. Found out a few things I didn't know before this thread.


----------



## Sixto

bubbers44 said:


> About 1.000 km to go apogee and perigee so who ever posts first doesn't matter. We are on the home stretch. Thanks to all that contributed. It has been an education for me. Found out a few things I didn't know before this thread.


Yep, total team effort. Lefty, dms1, cartrivision with the rocket science stuff. Ken984, DCappy, DodgerKing with TLE updates, graphs, projections. P Smith to keep us honest. And many others participating all along the way. Not everyone's always available 7x24 so it's been great to have everyone pitch in.

Personally thankful to Ken984 and DCappy ... Ken984 is always quick noticing the new TLE, when I'm not so quick (!) or at work (yes, some of us do have jobs  ) and DCappy has been a great source for comparative projections.

We're just a week or so away!

Less then a 1,000km to go (for the perigee).


----------



## P Smith

My spectrum analyzer warmed up and ready to capture new tpns.


----------



## Sixto

BTW, have added a new projection line ... because as we get closer, the short term TLE average change may be more accurate (whether it slows down or speeds up) ... now have the 5 TLE and 18 TLE average ... fairly safe we'll be somewhere within the range ... have gone back and added to the previous post and post#2.


Code:


[B]Past 5 TLE Projection:[/B] 5/22/08 07:18pm - 6.02 days at Day#64.07 at 6.87km/hour
[B]Past 18 TLE Projection:[/B] 5/24/08 07:48am - 7.54 days at Day#65.60 at 5.48km/hour


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/24/08 05:19am[/B] - 7.05 days at Day#65.49 at 5.30km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 07:47pm[/B] - 6.65 days at Day#65.09 at 5.62km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE74)
1 32729U 08013A   08138.16985510 -.00000175  00000-0  00000+0 0   747
2 32729 000.0450 283.8219 0238382 278.5036 000.1136 00.99884251   708

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-17-2008 04:04:35[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	70
Inclination		0.045
RA of A. Node		283.822
Eccentricity		0.0238382
Argument of Perigee	278.504
Revs per day		0.99884251
Period			24h 01m 40s (1441.67 min)
Semi-major axis		42 274 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]34 888 x 36 903 km[/B]
Element number / age	74 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) [B]34,888 x 36,903 km[/B] (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, [B]+ 95km[/B])
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)
TLE#70 (05-13-2008 01:23:27) 34,365 x 37,443 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 54.3 days, +187km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## smiddy

Nice Sixto, it is getting real close.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Looks like you guys have been really busy, sixto, lefty, and everyone else who worked on this thing. Thank you for the education. looks like it parks today sometime. WOOHOO.....bring it on


----------



## Sixto

MIAMI1683 said:


> Looks like you guys have been really busy, sixto, lefty, and everyone else who worked on this thing. Thank you for the education. looks like it parks today sometime. WOOHOO.....bring it on


still got a week ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> still got a week ...


Thanks for keeping us current.

Once parked...the 30 day transponder testing window opens...


----------



## DCappy

Day 58.4, TLE#74, 9:10:02 since last TLE (using past 30 TLE average).

Perigee increased 95km and has 898km to go.
Apogee decreased 3km and has 1,117km to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.57km per day or 6.1km per hour.

7.0 more days or Saturday, May 24, 4:35 AM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


Never to much info. Thanks to Sixto and Ken984 TLE postings and decoding them, so I can put the number into my spreadsheet. I’ve decoded the date stamp, but I cannot figure out the Perigee or Apogee (still working on it).

Lefty, dms1, cartrivision with the rocket science stuff, maded my head hurt. Took a while to get my head around the “Figure 8 orbit”. I’ve learned a lot here.

A lot of people have to work (I’m retired) and don’t have the time. Like those that have posted graphs here, I’m trying to show a quick snapshot of where D11 is at and how long to go, in terms that do not require a college diploma.


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74


----------



## dduitsman

DodgerKing said:


> Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74


I really appreciate those graphs. Even I can see what the trends are.

I can't wait to see the new sat lit up.

Thanks,
dd


----------



## smiddy

DodgerKing said:


> Latest Excel graph includes TLE 74


Nice, every moment we get closer!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm looking for the first "It's Parked" post this coming week some time.


----------



## sat2631

It is now at 99 W to start it's parking. Still moving around between 94 and 99 but it will park here.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Any bets to when we'll have this bird in the signal meter?


----------



## Sing1gniS

kevinwmsn said:


> Any bets to when we'll have this bird in the signal meter?


When it is, what should we look for? 99c?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Sing1gniS said:


> When it is, what should we look for? 99c?


yes


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Michael D'Angelo;1606618 said:


> yes


Last time it showed up on day 2 after D10 was parked....no values for several weeks after that....


----------



## ub1934

* Its still moving , now at 102 W*


sat2631 said:


> It is now at 99 W to start it's parking. Still moving around between 94 and 99 but it will park here.


----------



## sat2631

ub1934 said:


> * Its still moving , now at 102 W*


My Orbitron shows it moving back at 98 W now. Make sure you update your TLE to #74. It should not be at 102 W.



Also see : http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
.


----------



## Sixto

Everything is all just a projection, which is now based on a 2-day old TLE ... we'll get a new TLE eventually ...


----------



## RAD

Maybe it will be a surprise TLE like D10 had that none showed up for a few days and then bingo, it's parked?


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Maybe it will be a surprise TLE like D10 had that none showed up for a few days and then bingo, it's parked?


Seems like the TLE updater has taken the last few weekends off


----------



## smiddy

2 - 6 more days, yes?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> 2 - 6 more days, yes?


Latest estimate was end of this week.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Latest estimate was end of this week.


It is getting closer!


----------



## grump

smiddy said:


> It is getting closer!


While spatially getting further away.


----------



## Indiana627

My mom's birthday is the 23rd (Friday) so let's hope for that!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> It is getting closer!





grump said:


> While spatially getting further away.


At least I understand *this* kind of techy talk regarding D11.


----------



## Ken984

new tle



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08140.56623155 -.00000178  00000-0  00000+0 0   752
2 32729 000.0615 285.1011 0146425 277.1715 143.2789 01.00140242   724

getting very close now

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-19 13:35:22
Orbit # at Epoch	72
Inclination	0.061
RA of A. Node	285.101
Eccentricity	0.0146425
Argument of Perigee	277.171
Revs per day	1.00140242
Period	23h 57m 59s (1437.98 min)
Semi-major axis	42 202 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 206 x 36 441 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	143.279
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## DodgerKing

Ken984 said:


> new tle
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08140.56623155 -.00000178  00000-0  00000+0 0   752
> 2 32729 000.0615 285.1011 0146425 277.1715 143.2789 01.00140242   724
> 
> getting very close now
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 11
> NORAD #	32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-19 13:35:22
> Orbit # at Epoch	72
> Inclination	0.061
> RA of A. Node	285.101
> Eccentricity	0.0146425
> Argument of Perigee	277.171
> Revs per day	1.00140242
> Period	23h 57m 59s (1437.98 min)
> Semi-major axis	42 202 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 206 x 36 441 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	143.279
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A


That is quite a jump from 74


----------



## dms1

DodgerKing said:


> That is quite a jump from 74


Orbit now takes it between 94.6 and 97.7 degrees west.


----------



## DodgerKing

dms1 said:


> Orbit now takes it between 94.6 and 97.7 degrees west.


I was referring to day 74, not longitude.


----------



## dms1

DodgerKing said:


> I was referring to day 74, not longitude.


I know. I was just commenting what the current range of oscillation in longitude was.


----------



## DCappy

Day 60.8, TLE#75, 57:30:47 since last TLE (using past 31 TLE average).

Perigee increased 318km and has 580km to go.
Apogee decreased 462km and has 655m to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 144.60km per day or 6.0km per hour.

4.3 more days or Friday, May 23, 7:39 PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## smiddy

DCappy said:


> Day 60.8, TLE#75, 57:30:47 since last TLE (using past 31 TLE average).
> 
> Perigee increased 318km and has 580km to go.
> Apogee decreased 462km and has 655m to go.
> 
> Perigee gaining at an average of 144.60km per day or 6.0km per hour.
> 
> 4.3 more days or Friday, May 23, 7:39 PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


NICE!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DCappy said:


> Day 60.8, TLE#75, 57:30:47 since last TLE (using past 31 TLE average).
> 
> Perigee increased 318km and has 580km to go.
> Apogee decreased 462km and has 655m to go.
> 
> Perigee gaining at an average of 144.60km per day or 6.0km per hour.
> 
> 4.3 more days or Friday, May 23, 7:39 PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


I'm assuming that's all based on present speed, present course, etc.

In any case, this syncs up with other posts I've read elsewhere - end of this week is a target for the final position.


----------



## bruinfever

What is the "magic" number I should be looking for in the TLE's to know that we've reached our destination?


----------



## dms1

bruinfever said:


> What is the "magic" number I should be looking for in the TLE's to know that we've reached our destination?


Look for the eccentricity going to zero, which means that it is in a circular orbit. The eccentricity (with leading "0." missing) is the fifth parameter on the second line of the TLE.


----------



## richall01

Wonder if there going for June 1st. Hum.....


----------



## smiddy

richall01 said:


> Wonder if there going for June 1st. Hum.....


There ya go, the last DirecTV 12 post said to look for something May 1st, perhaps the poor satellite got it wrong and really meant June 1st.


----------



## HoTat2

bruinfever said:


> What is the "magic" number I should be looking for in the TLE's to know that we've reached our destination?





dms1 said:


> Look for the eccentricity going to zero, which means that it is in a circular orbit. The eccentricity (with leading "0." missing) is the fifth parameter on the second line of the TLE.


Or simply look for when the target orbit of 35,786 km x 35,786 km apogee and perigee is reached.


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> Or simply look for when the target orbit of 35,786 km x 35,786 km apogee and perigee is reached.


Except that he did ask what to look for in the TLE - not the interpretation of it.


----------



## grump

Sixto said:


> [*]As of today, the orbit is somewhat circular, but with a low (perigee) altitude of 34,888km and a high (apogee) altitude of 36,903km.


Hey Sixto, do you happen to have the inclination of D-10 and Spaceway-1 on a per-day basis saved anywhere? With us getting close to having D-11 with the right apogee and perigee, it might be interesting to see where we stand with regards to inclination as well.

(oh, and bang up job on keeping everything up-to-date)


----------



## cartrivision

grump said:


> Hey Sixto, do you happen to have the inclination of D-10 and Spaceway-1 on a per-day basis saved anywhere? With us getting close to having D-11 with the right apogee and perigee, it might be interesting to see where we stand with regards to inclination as well.
> 
> (oh, and bang up job on keeping everything up-to-date)


Here is what http://heavens-above.com/orbitdisplay.asp?satid=31862&lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=CDT indicates for D10:

1 31862U 07032A 08137.53685598 -.00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 1793
2 31862 000.0472 096.1268 0000147 193.7670 035.2114 01.00271337 3162

Epoch (UTC): 12:53:04 PM, Friday, May 16, 2008
Eccentricity: 0.0000147
Inclination: 000.0472°
Perigee Height: 35,786 km
Apogee Height: 35,787 km
Right Ascension of Ascending Node: 096.1268°
Argument of Perigee: 193.7670°
Revolutions per Day: 01.00271337
Mean Anomaly at Epoch: 035.2114°
Orbit Number at Epoch: 316


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> Except that he did ask what to look for in the TLE - not the interpretation of it.


Yeah I know,

But I meant to imply that if he wanted to he could forget about interpreting the complex TLEs and just look at the orbit data usually posted below it in this thread like I do  . I really don't find looking at the series of unitless numbers in the TLEs that helpful, in and of themselves. Without a program to feed them into and crunch the numbers to generate a more readable list of orbital parameters that the layman can easily understand at a glance.


----------



## P Smith

Not sure if SW2 changed something today, but there are new [LHCP] signals coming from 99W spot.


----------



## Sixto

Been out ... not to be redundant with Ken and DCap (thanks!) ... but to be consistent ... here's the updated table ...


Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 06:30am[/B] - 3.70 days at Day#64.54 at 6.51km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 07:22pm[/B] - 4.24 days at Day#65.08 at 5.69km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE75)
1 32729U 08013A   08140.56623155 -.00000178  00000-0  00000+0 0   752
2 32729 000.0615 285.1011 0146425 277.1715 143.2789 01.00140242   724

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-19-2008 13:35:22[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	72
Inclination		0.062
RA of A. Node		285.101
Eccentricity		0.0146425
Argument of Perigee	277.171
Revs per day		1.00140242
Period			23h 57m 59s (1437.98 min)
Semi-major axis		42 202 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 206 x 36 441 km[/B]
Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#75 (05-19-2008 13:35:22) [B]35,206 x 36,441 km[/B] (+57.5 hours, at 60.8 days, +318km)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)
TLE#71 (05-14-2008 13:20:38) 34,423 x 37,211 km (+36.0 hours, at 55.8 days, + 58km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

grump said:


> Hey Sixto, do you happen to have the inclination of D-10 and Spaceway-1 on a per-day basis saved anywhere? With us getting close to having D-11 with the right apogee and perigee, it might be interesting to see where we stand with regards to inclination as well.
> 
> (oh, and bang up job on keeping everything up-to-date)


Yep, I do have the inclination of every TLE for D10 and Spaceway-1 saved some where. Will look for it tonight sometime ....


----------



## bubbers44

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

I'm not sure how up to date this is but it shows the present position of D11 at 99.72 W longitude oscillating to the east a few degrees so looks like they might get serious soon with parking it.


----------



## Sixto

bubbers44 said:


> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
> 
> I'm not sure how up to date this is but it shows the present position of D11 at 99.72 W longitude oscillating to the east a few degrees so looks like they might get serious soon with parking it.


Their site uses the current TLE and projects the approximate location. They don't always have the latest TLE. We always do here. Currently, they have TLE# 74, which is old.

All the stars are aligning. This week.

Also, once D11 gets to the approximate location, it will move around a little for a few to several days. Same as Spaceway-1 and D10.

It's close.


----------



## ziltomil

P Smith said:


> Not sure if SW2 changed something today, but there are new [LHCP] signals coming from 99W spot.


And you picked this up with a signal meter? Maybe their already doing transponder tests?


----------



## bhelton71

Sixto said:


> Their site uses the current TLE and projects the approximate location. They don't always have the latest TLE. We always do here. Currently, they have TLE# 74, which is old.
> 
> All the stars are aligning. This week.
> 
> Also, once D11 gets to the approximate location, it will move around a little for a few to several days. Same as Spaceway-1 and D10.
> 
> It's close.


So will they 'park it' in the final orbital slot or will it be a couple of degrees off final (like D10 was) for testing, etc ? And will they park it exactly at 99 or will it be a couple of point degrees off (here again like D10) ?


----------



## P Smith

ziltomil said:


> And you picked this up with a signal meter? Maybe their already doing transponder tests?


Spectrum analyzer.


----------



## cforrest

Maybe that LHCP from SW2 is for the preparation of signals to come from D11 in the next few weeks. Does that make any sense? I am not a signal expert


----------



## Sixto

bhelton71 said:


> So will they 'park it' in the final orbital slot or will it be a couple of degrees off final (like D10 was) for testing, etc ? And will they park it exactly at 99 or will it be a couple of point degrees off (here again like D10) ?


There is no announced test location for D11.

It's going directly to 99.225 (as best we know from all the filings). I was referring to the final few tweaks. When you look at D10 and Spaceway-1 (in post#2) you'll see that they first got to about 35,786km and then drifted up and down a few km before it locks in hard. May also drift a few fractions of a degree for a few days. But 99.225 is the goal.


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest Excel graph. Includes TLE 75


----------



## tj177mmi

Dodgerking, you may enhance your graph that much more by placing a 3rd line at the target point. Just a thought. You guys are awesome, btw!


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Latest Excel graph. Includes TLE 75


Looking pretty!

Just took another peak at Orbitron. All indications are 5/23 for not only altitude but also 99.225 degrees.

And again, this gets us close. Probably will be several days of "tweaking" afterwards, before it's really solidly parked exactly at 99.225 at 36,786km.

Patience ... Soon ... Anon ...


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> Just took another peak at Orbitron. All indications are 5/23 for not only altitude but also 99.225 degrees.[/QUOTE
> 
> May 23rd, wedding anniversary. OK, think of a plan to get out of dinner so I can be constantly checking transponder levels...


----------



## smiddy

Man is this exciting or what!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

smiddy said:


> Man is this exciting or what!


Yes it is!


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Man is this exciting or what!


It is, at least for the small subset of possible meanings for "exciting" that appeal to satellite TV geeks . . . 

:lol:


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/22/08 05:06pm[/B] - 2.65 days at Day#63.98 at 6.80km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 02:52am[/B] - 3.06 days at Day#64.39 at 5.9km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE76)
1 32729U 08013A   08141.06077060 -.00000146  00000-0  00000+0 0   762
2 32729 000.0608 288.8655 0129159 273.0170 321.5849 00.99874560   738

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-20-2008 01:27:30[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	73
Inclination		0.061
RA of A. Node		288.866
Eccentricity		0.0129159
Argument of Perigee	273.017
Revs per day		0.99874560
Period			24h 01m 48s (1441.80 min)
Semi-major axis		42 276 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 352 x 36 444 km[/B]
Element number / age	76 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#76 (05-20-2008 01:27:30) [B]35,352 x 36,444 km[/B] (+11.9 hours, at 61.3 days, +146km)
TLE#75 (05-19-2008 13:35:22) 35,206 x 36,441 km (+57.5 hours, at 60.8 days, +318km)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)
TLE#72 (05-15-2008 12:22:25) 34,610 x 37,078 km (+23.0 hours, at 56.8 days, +187km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Interceptor

Paul A said:


> May 23rd, wedding anniversary. OK, think of a plan to get out of dinner so I can be constantly checking transponder levels...


Wow! Mine too! Let me know if you come up with anything. It has to be good though, or my wife will never buy it. :grin:

Happy Anniversary.


----------



## DCappy

My shot at making a chart.


----------



## Sixto

Man we're getting close ...

At current course and speed, D11 will be exactly at 99.225 at 6:23ET tomorrow (5/20) but just a little high at 35,858km (instead of 35,786km).

Soon ... (5/22, 5/23ish) ...


----------



## smiddy

Yep, we're getting there!


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> My shot at making a chart.


Now that's pretty too!

Very nice.


----------



## P Smith

DCappy said:


> My shot at making a chart.


Thanks David .


----------



## DCappy

Day 61.3, TLE#76, 11:52:08 since last TLE (using past 32 TLE average).

Perigee increased 146km and has 434km to go.
Apogee increased 3km and has 658m to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 146.91km per day or 6.1km per hour.

3.8 more days or Friday, May 23, 7:58 PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

11:52:08 since last TLE, Full orbit period is 24:01:48 (1441.80 min). Right?
Probably be a bigger change in Apogee next TLE.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Based on the timeframes...with 30 days on internal test...another 30 days for sat channel additional lineup and test...that would bean they would be ready about 8/23 for launching new channels in production, which is pretty much right on time with their original estimates.


----------



## Curtis0620

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Based on the timeframes...with 30 days on internal test...another 30 days for sat channel additional lineup and test...that would bean they would be ready about 8/23 for launching new channels in production, which is pretty much right on time with their original estimates.


Wouldn't that be 7/23?


----------



## MIMOTech

A few questions for the sat experts. 

1) Will the final parked altitude depend on the current mass of the sat? 

2) And will that altitude vary with the life of the sat? 

Thanks!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Curtis0620 said:


> Wouldn't that be 7/23?


Yup....my bad.

I sure wish my fingers worked in sync with my typo-laden mind. :lol:


----------



## FHSPSU67

MIMOTech said:


> A few questions for the sat experts.
> 
> 1) Will the final parked altitude depend on the current mass of the sat?
> 
> 2) And will that altitude vary with the life of the sat?
> 
> Thanks!


Not an expert, but all geostationary sats (large & small) are at a very nearly constant altitude of 35,786 kilometers or 22,300 miles. They maintain this altitude throughout their useful life.
It's where the centripetal force of the object exactly balances the force of gravity.
Experts feel free to modify, enhance this.


----------



## PoitNarf

FHSPSU67 said:


> Not an expert, but all geostationary sats (large & small) are at a very nearly constant altitude of 35,786 kilometers or 22,300 miles. They maintain this altitude throughout their useful life.
> It's where the centrifugal force of the object exactly balances the force of gravity.
> Experts feel free to modify, enhance this.


Yep, from my understanding of physics this is exactly correct. But just to go back to MIMOTech's first question:



MIMOTech said:


> 1) Will the final parked altitude depend on the current mass of the sat?


No. Remember those experiments with dropping a feather in a vacuum and also dropping a quarter or something else that's more massive? They fall at the same rate. Gravity accelerates things at the same rate regardless of mass. So if you wanted to put a feather in the same orbit as D11 it would need to be at the same altitude.

Edit: Perfect video illustrating my point:


----------



## Inches

PoitNarf said:


> Yep, from my understanding of physics this is exactly correct. But just to go back to MIMOTech's first question:
> 
> No. Remember those experiments with dropping a feather in a vacuum and also dropping a quarter or something else that's more massive? They fall at the same rate. Gravity accelerates things at the same rate regardless of mass. So if you wanted to put a feather in the same orbit as D11 it would need to be at the same altitude.
> 
> Edit: Perfect video illustrating my point:


How 'bout the feather and hammer drop that was done on the moon?? Sure do miss the moon days.


----------



## PoitNarf

Inches said:


> How 'bout the feather and hammer drop that was done on the moon?? Sure do miss the moon days.


Didn't watch the youtube video I linked, did you?


----------



## gslater

Ok. I'm not a physicist but isn't Centrifugal force dependant upon the mass of the object? I would think that technically speaking the mass does have an affect on the force balancing gravity but the masses we're talking about here are so small that the mass lost due to fuel consumption is completely insignificant.

Edit: The acceleration due to gravity is a constant but if I'm not mistaken the actual force applied to a body does vary with the mass. That is why a small object is easy to lift vs. a more massive object. It weighs more because weight is a measure of the force of gravity acting on the mass to attract it. That said maybe I've answered my question above. Maybe the difference in Centrifugal force is balanced by the change in the force of gravity acting on the mass?

Physicists fee free to chime in here anytime before I dig myself a bigger hole!!!


----------



## BkwSoft

gslater said:


> Ok. I'm not a physicist but isn't Centrifugal force dependant upon the mass of the object?


I'm no physicist either, but I thought Centrifugal force was basically a fallacy. Rather an object continues to move in a straight line without another force applied to it, i.e. centripetal force or in this case gravity.


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, centrifugal force doesn't really exist.  

It's a made-up (but kind of handy) mental short-hand. What we think of as centrifugal force is really the effect of mass resisting acceleration, e.g., inertia. Specifically, as Newton says, a mass in motion tends to stay in motion. However, good old F = ma (force equals mass times acceleration) comes into play. At any given point in orbit, the mass of the earth is acting on the mass of the satellite. The satellite "wants" to continue in a straight line but it is continually accelerated toward the center of mass of the earth, which curves the path the satellite is taking. 

And yes, the gravitational attraction between two bodies depends on the mass of both, but the Earth's mass is so much greater than that of any other non-celestial body that the effect is insignificant. The moon's mass, however, is NOT insignificant, and actually causes a slight wobble in the motion of the earth when measured very precisely.


----------



## Ken984

New Tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08141.45237458 -.00000160  00000-0  00000+0 0   771
2 32729 000.0602 283.8998 0117756 280.2141 100.3862 01.00055434   737

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-20 10:51:25
Orbit # at Epoch	73
Inclination	0.060
RA of A. Node	283.900
Eccentricity	0.0117756
Argument of Perigee	280.214
Revs per day	1.00055434
Period	23h 59m 12s (1439.20 min)
Semi-major axis	42 226 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 350 x 36 345 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	100.386
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	77 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Inches

PoitNarf said:


> Didn't watch the youtube video I linked, did you?


I get nervous about clicking on strange links. I did just watch it and that is what I remember when I saw it live. OOPS, I guess I just qualified as a geezer. :hurah:


----------



## gslater

Inches said:


> I get nervous about clicking on strange links. I did just watch it and that is what I remember when I saw it live. OOPS, I guess I just qualified as a geezer. :hurah:


I guess that qualifies a lot of us as Geezers. I remember when the movie Apollo 13 came out and my wife and I were talking about it. My son who was born in '84 came up to me and said with a great deal of incredulity: "You mean we actually landed on the Moon?". Talk about making me feel old. It's sad when I watched every launch and followed every flight and these days kids don't even know that it happened.


----------



## gregjones

A very simplified way to think of it is this: centrifugal force depends on the mass of the object to the same extent that gravitational force does. Because the mass of the object is a factor in both opposing forces, it can be said to be irrelevant.


----------



## LarryW

We are geezers. I was in college taking a Mechanical Engineering course when the Apollo 13 accident happened and our professor spent the entire class period explaining what had probably happened. He worked for NASA prior to becoming a professor.


----------



## gslater

My son was 13 or 14 when I had that conversation with him and you'd think that by then, the school would have covered it, but he thought that whole story was just that, a made up story that never really took place.


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> My son was 13 or 14 when I had that conversation with him and you'd think that by then, the school would have covered it, but he thought that whole story was just that, a made up story that never really took place.


Arrrrrrrghhhh!!!!! 

http://www.clavius.org

http://www.badastronomy.com


----------



## bhelton71

gslater said:


> I guess that qualifies a lot of us as Geezers. I remember when the movie Apollo 13 came out and my wife and I were talking about it. My son who was born in '84 came up to me and said with a great deal of incredulity: "You mean we actually landed on the Moon?". Talk about making me feel old. It's sad when I watched every launch and followed every flight and these days kids don't even know that it happened.


Haven't you heard - thats because it didn't happen - it was filmed on a hollywood backlot. Same way they made the Apollo 13 movie. Its all a conspiracy - because most americans can't find themselves on a map and you want to think someone could drive to the moon without a Tom-Tom? Never happened. :lol:

Ok - back on topic now. I can't remember on D10 - did they have to do a software release to get the new sat/transponders on the signal strength or when D11 comes online - will it just get added to the existing ? Just trying to find out when the non-rocket scientist will be able to tell it is online  ?


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest excel graph with TLE 77 and another line representing its final resting orbit.


----------



## ziltomil

Looking at the latest TLE it seems Directv could be parked by tomorrow.


----------



## grump

ziltomil said:


> Looking at the latest TLE it seems Directv could be parked by tomorrow.


I think the consensus around here is still Friday.


----------



## dms1

gslater said:


> Ok. I'm not a physicist but isn't Centrifugal force dependant upon the mass of the object? I would think that technically speaking the mass does have an affect on the force balancing gravity but the masses we're talking about here are so small that the mass lost due to fuel consumption is completely insignificant.
> 
> Edit: The acceleration due to gravity is a constant but if I'm not mistaken the actual force applied to a body does vary with the mass. That is why a small object is easy to lift vs. a more massive object. It weighs more because weight is a measure of the force of gravity acting on the mass to attract it. That said maybe I've answered my question above. Maybe the difference in Centrifugal force is balanced by the change in the force of gravity acting on the mass?
> 
> Physicists fee free to chime in here anytime before I dig myself a bigger hole!!!


I am a physicist (by education). 

For a body orbiting in a circular orbit at constant speed, the acceleration of that body is directed totally towards the center of the orbit. In other words, the tangential component of the acceleration is zero. The magnitude of the radial component is equal to the radius of the orbit multiplied by the square of the angular velocity. The force required to cause this acceleration is simply this multiplied by the mass of the body:
F = m * r * w^2 (used w for angular velocity instead of lower-case omega)

This force comes from the gravitational attraction of the Earth, and is given by the equation:
F = G * m * M / r^2, where M is the mass of the earth and G is the Gravitational constant.

Hence,
m * r * w^2 = G * m * M / r^2

This simplifies to:
w^2 = G * M / r^3

As you can see, the mass of the body (the satellite in this case) does not appear in this equation. Since G and M are constants, the angular velocity of the satellite depends just on the radius of the orbit. Slotting in the required angular velocity (two-pi radians per sidereal day) yields the necessary orbital radius for a geostationary satellite.


----------



## Tigerman73

gslater said:


> My son was 13 or 14 when I had that conversation with him and you'd think that by then, the school would have covered it, but he thought that whole story was just that, a made up story that never really took place.


It was all staged, if it wasn't how could they film them as they jumped out of the craft onto the moon.


----------



## DCappy

Day 61.7, TLE#77, 9:23:56 since last TLE (using past 33 TLE average).

Perigee decreased 2km and has 436km to go.
Apogee decreased 99km and has 559m to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.09km per day or 6.0km per hour.

3.4 more days or Friday, May 23, 9:16 PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.

The last two TLEs (11:52:08 & 9:23:56 since last TLE) are less than one full orbit. Full orbit period is 23:59:12 (1439.20 min). Right?

Nice and easy while we parallel park this thing. We don't want any dings at this point.


----------



## Sixto

For completeness ... here's the updated table ...


Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 07:32am[/B] - 2.86 days at Day#64.58 at 6.33km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 02:26pm[/B] - 3.15 days at Day#64.87 at 5.76km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE77)
1 32729U 08013A   08141.45237458 -.00000160  00000-0  00000+0 0   771
2 32729 000.0602 283.8998 0117756 280.2141 100.3862 01.00055434   737

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		05-20-2008 10:51:25
Orbit # at Epoch	73
Inclination		0.060
RA of A. Node		283.900
Eccentricity		0.0117756
Argument of Perigee	280.214
Revs per day		1.00055434
Period			23h 59m 12s (1439.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 226 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 350 x 36 345 km
Element number / age	77 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#77 (05-20-2008 10:51:25) 35,350 x 36,345 km (+ 9.4 hours, at 61.7 days, -  2km)
TLE#76 (05-20-2008 01:27:30) 35,352 x 36,444 km (+11.9 hours, at 61.3 days, +146km)
TLE#75 (05-19-2008 13:35:22) 35,206 x 36,441 km (+57.5 hours, at 60.8 days, +318km)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)
TLE#73 (05-16-2008 18:54:33) 34,793 x 36,906 km (+30.5 hours, at 58.1 days, +183km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## gregjones

dms1 said:


> I am a physicist (by education).
> 
> For a body orbiting in a circular orbit at constant speed, the acceleration of that body is directed totally towards the center of the orbit. In other words, the tangential component of the acceleration is zero. The magnitude of the radial component is equal to the radius of the orbit multiplied by the square of the angular velocity. The force required to cause this acceleration is simply this multiplied by the mass of the body:
> F = m * r * w^2 (used w for angular velocity instead of lower-case omega)
> 
> This force comes from the gravitational attraction of the Earth, and is given by the equation:
> F = G * m * M / r^2, where M is the mass of the earth and G is the Gravitational constant.
> 
> Hence,
> m * r * w^2 = G * m * M / r^2
> 
> This simplifies to:
> w^2 = G * M / r^3
> 
> As you can see, the mass of the body (the satellite in this case) does not appear in this equation. Since G and M are constants, the angular velocity of the satellite depends just on the radius of the orbit. Slotting in the required angular velocity (two-pi radians per sidereal day) yields the necessary orbital radius for a geostationary satellite.


And while I appreciate the physics in this post, my explanation was shorter. LOL


----------



## dms1

gregjones said:


> And while I appreciate the physics in this post, my explanation was shorter. LOL


True, although neither of us commented on the fact that this all assumes the equivalence of inertial mass (the 'm' from Newton's second law) with gravitational mass (the 'm's from Newton's equation of gravity), otherwise the two don't cancel out. It was only with the general theory of relativity that this equivalence was actually proved.


----------



## FHSPSU67

gregjones said:


> And while I appreciate the physics in this post, my explanation was shorter. LOL


All things should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler!
w/ credit to : Albert Einstein


----------



## MIMOTech

All, Thanks for the answers, they were very good. I asked the question because in looking at the other DTV sats on Orbitron there seemed to be a small difference in altitude between them. Did not know whether it was due to mass of the sats or was it just natural variations due to slight differences in the station keeping orbits. Looks like they are getting finner in the adjustments and it should be in its home location soon.

Thanks again all.....


----------



## MIMOTech

Tigerman73, The fact is the camera man was there before Armstrong, the camera guys never get the credit!!!!


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> I am a physicist (by education).
> 
> For a body orbiting in a circular orbit at constant speed, the acceleration of that body is directed totally towards the center of the orbit. In other words, the tangential component of the acceleration is zero. *The magnitude of the radial component is equal to the radius of the orbit multiplied by the square of the angular velocity. The force required to cause this acceleration is simply this multiplied by the mass of the body:
> F = m * r * w^2 (used w for angular velocity instead of lower-case omega)*
> This force comes from the gravitational attraction of the Earth, and is given by the equation:
> F = G * m * M / r^2, where M is the mass of the earth and G is the Gravitational constant.
> 
> Hence,
> m * r * w^2 = G * m * M / r^2
> 
> This simplifies to:
> w^2 = G * M / r^3
> 
> As you can see, the mass of the body (the satellite in this case) does not appear in this equation. Since G and M are constants, the angular velocity of the satellite depends just on the radius of the orbit. Slotting in the required angular velocity (two-pi radians per sidereal day) yields the necessary orbital radius for a geostationary satellite.


Hi dms1;

Informative post, but I don't think the highlighted part of your explanation above is correct  :

Shouldn't it be "the magnitude of the radial component (the centripetal acceleration) is equal to **the square of the angular velocity divided by the radius of the orbit?."**

Therefore the force acting on an orbital body is actually equal to F = mv^2/r ?

See equations 3.4 and 3.5 under the sub-topic titled "Uniform Circular Motion" at the link posted much earlier in this thread here:

http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm#launch


----------



## mbuser

So Friday before noon looks like a pretty reasonable assumption. This is awesome, almost as exciting as waiting for the first wave of new HD channels last fall.


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> Hi dms1;
> 
> Informative post, but I don't think the highlighted part of your explanation above is correct  :
> 
> Shouldn't it be "the magnitude of the radial component (the centripetal acceleration) is equal to **the square of the angular velocity divided by the radius of the orbit?."**
> 
> Therefore the force acting on an orbital body is actually equal to F = mv^2/r ?
> 
> See equations 3.4 and 3.5 under the sub-topic titled "Uniform Circular Motion" at the link posted much earlier in this thread here:
> 
> http://www.braeunig.us/space/orbmech.htm#launch


No. You're confusing angular velocity, which is measured in radians per second, with speed, which is measured in meters per second.

The equation I gave (which was in terms of angular velocity) was correct. For any body, the speed is given by the magnitude of distance divided by time. For a body in a circular orbit, the distance traveled in one complete revolution is:
d = 2 * pi * r (the circumference of the circle)

The time taken to complete one revolution is:
t = 2 * pi / w (the number of radians in a complete revolution divided by the number of radians per second)

Hence, the speed is given by:
v = d/t = 2 * pi * r / 2 * pi * w
= wr

This can be rearranged to give:
w = v / r

My original equation was:
|a| = r * w^2

Substituting for w gives:
|a| = r * (v / r)^2
= r * v^2 / r^2
= v^2 / r

This is the equation you were eluding to, but you erroneously referred to "angular velocity" instead of "speed".

End of physics lesson.


----------



## hdgreg

dms1 said:


> No. You're confusing angular velocity, which is measured in radians per second, with speed, which is measured in meters per second.
> 
> The equation I gave (which was in terms of angular velocity) was correct. For any body, the speed is given by the magnitude of distance divided by time. For a body in a circular orbit, the distance traveled in one complete revolution is:
> d = 2 * pi * r (the circumference of the circle)
> 
> The time taken to complete one revolution is:
> t = 2 * pi / w (the number of radians in a complete revolution divided by the number of radians per second)
> 
> Hence, the speed is given by:
> v = d/t = 2 * pi * r / 2 * pi * w
> = wr
> 
> This can be rearranged to give:
> w = v / r
> 
> My original equation was:
> |a| = r * w^2
> 
> Substituting for w gives:
> |a| = r * (v / r)^2
> = r * v^2 / r^2
> = v^2 / r
> 
> This is the equation you were eluding to, but you erroneously referred to "angular velocity" instead of "speed".
> 
> End of physics lesson.


That was amazing! Can you help me balance my checkbook?


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> No. You're confusing angular velocity, which is measured in radians per second, with speed, which is measured in meters per second.
> 
> The equation I gave (which was in terms of angular velocity) was correct. For any body, the speed is given by the magnitude of distance divided by time. For a body in a circular orbit, the distance traveled in one complete revolution is:
> d = 2 * pi * r (the circumference of the circle)
> 
> The time taken to complete one revolution is:
> t = 2 * pi / w (the number of radians in a complete revolution divided by the number of radians per second)
> 
> Hence, the speed is given by:
> v = d/t = 2 * pi * r / 2 * pi * w
> = wr
> 
> This can be rearranged to give:
> w = v / r
> 
> My original equation was:
> |a| = r * w^2
> 
> Substituting for w gives:
> |a| = r * (v / r)^2
> = r * v^2 / r^2
> = v^2 / r
> 
> This is the equation you were eluding to, but you erroneously referred to "angular velocity" instead of "speed".
> 
> End of physics lesson.


Got it;

Thanks for the clarification. "Angular velocity" in radians per sec. vs. "angular speed" in meters per sec. Been over 25 years since I've reviewed them back in college.


----------



## ub1934

* Just in time for the Fri. night CE , will it let us see 99C , we will see ??   *


mbuser said:


> So Friday before noon looks like a pretty reasonable assumption. This is awesome, almost as exciting as waiting for the first wave of new HD channels last fall.


----------



## FHSPSU67

I'll be missing my first CE this Memorial Day weekend. Visiting family. I'll be watching the progress via my laptop while I'm gone, though.


----------



## bruinfever

dms1 said:


> The time taken to complete one revolution is:
> t = 2 * pi / w (the number of radians in a complete revolution divided by the number of radians per second)
> 
> Hence, the speed is given by:
> v = d/t = 2 * pi * r / 2 * pi * w
> = wr
> 
> This can be rearranged to give:
> w = v / r
> 
> My original equation was:
> |a| = r * w^2
> 
> Substituting for w gives:
> |a| = r * (v / r)^2
> = r * v^2 / r^2
> = v^2 / r
> 
> This is the equation you were eluding to, but you erroneously referred to "angular velocity" instead of "speed".
> 
> End of physics lesson.


I was just about to post this answer until I saw you answered it DMS1!! :hurah: :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bruinfever said:


> I was just about to post this answer until I saw you answered it DMS1!! :hurah: :lol:


I knew there was a good reason I skipped Algebra 2. 

There are some mighty smart folk here.


----------



## Jeremy W

bhelton71 said:


> I can't remember on D10 - did they have to do a software release to get the new sat/transponders on the signal strength or when D11 comes online - will it just get added to the existing ?


It'll just get added. No new software is required.


----------



## syphix

NOTE: just because D11 will/may be parked by noon Friday doesn't mean we will see 99c come alive that day. Didn't D10 take a day or two to finally show in satellite signal tables?


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> NOTE: just because D11 will/may be parked by noon Friday doesn't mean we will see 99c come alive that day. Didn't D10 take a day or two to finally show in satellite signal tables?


Ya, it make take weeks or longer before D11 starts to send us anything at all


----------



## Paul A

syphix said:


> NOTE: just because D11 will/may be parked by noon Friday doesn't mean we will see 99c come alive that day. Didn't D10 take a day or two to finally show in satellite signal tables?


Park it and Spark it!

I just upgraded to Premium to take advantage of all the new HD we will soon be getting!!! Get er done!


----------



## steveken

Paul A said:


> Park it and Spark it!
> 
> I just upgraded to Premium to take advantage of all the new HD we will soon be getting!!! Get er done!


wow, upgrading to premium just for the new HD? seems a bit extreme, but to each his own. (I say extreme cause, damn, it costs a LOT!)


----------



## curt8403

steveken said:


> wow, upgrading to premium just for the new HD? seems a bit extreme, but to each his own. (I say extreme cause, damn, it costs a LOT!)


just so long as we do not have to revert to something like this...


----------



## Tiger62

FHSPSU67 said:


> All things should be made as simple as possible - but not simpler!
> w/ credit to : Albert Einstein


One of my favorite quotes...and it's too deep for a lot of folks.


----------



## Tiger62

hdgreg said:


> That was amazing! Can you help me balance my checkbook?


Possibly, but don't let him help you spell "alluding" :nono2:


----------



## dms1

Tiger62 said:


> Possibly, but don't let him help you spell "alluding" :nono2:


Give me a break. I'd just done all that maths. :grin:


----------



## smiddy

Can this get any closer without actually being parked? Wow!


----------



## gslater

smiddy said:


> Can this get any closer without actually being parked? Wow!


In the immortal words of one of our friends from last fall . . .

S O O N !!!


----------



## Tiger62

dms1 said:


> Give me a break. I'd just done all that maths. :grin:


Gotcha. All that math often causes spelling to elude you. :righton:


----------



## FHSPSU67

Tiger62 said:


> One of my favorite quotes...and it's too deep for a lot of folks.


Never thought of it that way, but I did have it hanging in my cubicle during my working days and it elicited very few comments. Maybe that's why!


----------



## ddobson

smiddy said:


> Can this get any closer without actually being parked? Wow!


*YES*

And that's a correct answer to your question....

(said in the tone of Little Jackie Wright from Benny Hill) :lol:


----------



## Athlon646464

MIMOTech said:


> Tigerman73, The fact is the camera man was there before Armstrong, the camera guys never get the credit!!!!


Obviously the film was shot from Earth by an amateur using a telescope. You can easily tell from the poor quality of the film..........

:grin:


----------



## TimGoodwin

ddobson said:


> *YES*
> 
> And that's a correct answer to your question....
> 
> (said in the tone of Little Jackie Wright from Benny Hill) :lol:


Does that mean you now get a slap on the head??


----------



## Ed Campbell

Tiger62 said:


> Gotcha. All that math often causes spelling to elude you. :righton:


Actually, in most of the English-speaking world, his spelling is correct.


----------



## tcusta00

Ed Campbell said:


> Actually, in most of the English-speaking world, his spelling is correct.


Not to continue this course off topic, but elude and allude are two different words.


----------



## P Smith

And you still polluting the thread .


----------



## dms1

Ed Campbell said:


> Actually, in most of the English-speaking world, his spelling is correct.


Thanks for backing me up, but as a true English speaker (I'm from England), I know very well that "allude" (suggest in an indirect way) and "elude" (avoid) are two different words and interchanging them is just plain bad.

If I can't even get the right words then I shall have to abandon my quest to educate Americans about the difference between "ensure" and "insure", which really bugs me.


----------



## tcusta00

P Smith said:


> And you still polluting the thread .


Um, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was polluting, nevermind _still _polluting. I won't post in this thread anymore.


----------



## LameLefty

dms1 said:


> Thanks for backing me up, but as a true English speaker (I'm from England), I know very well that "allude" (suggest in an indirect way) and "elude" (avoid) are two different words and interchanging them is just plain bad.
> 
> If I can't even get the right words then I shall have to abandon my quest to educate Americans about the difference between "ensure" and "insure", which really bugs me.


Just don't misspell "color," "neighbor," or misuse the letter "z" in words in place of an "s." 

And P Smith, as for complaining about thread-pollution, geez. This thread has dozens of pages of "pollution" including double-posted TLEs, questions asked, answered and asked again ten pages later, etc. It's a holiday weekend coming - have a cold one and unwind, man! A little bit of banter isn't gonna kill us at this point. It's not gotten so bad that the mods have had to split off a "technical" thread like they did for D10.


----------



## dms1

LameLefty said:


> Just don't misspell "color," "neighbor," or misuse the letter "z" in words in place of an "s."


Actually, they are the original English spellings before the French influence entered the language. I believe the early American colonists deliberately reverted to the older forms as a symbolic gesture to break free from the motherland as much as possible.

However, mixing up "insure" and "ensure" is just plain wrong. I could also mention reducing "license" and "licence" to a single word which loses some meaning. And don't get me started on how "I couldn't care less" got corrupted by many to "I could care less", which doesn't make any sense at all. :nono2:


----------



## ziltomil

LameLefty said:


> Just don't misspell "color," "neighbor," or misuse the letter "z" in words in place of an "s."


There are very sound etmological reasons to drop the 'u' in word ending with -our. What's latin for 'colour'? 'Color'

As for words with 'z' like realize and such, the -ize is actually the preferred spelling in both forms of english, but -ise is more ubiquitous in british english.

Just to illustrate the point: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxalize?view=uk

Now lets get on to Zee v. Zed.


----------



## bozzaj

dms1 said:


> And don't get me started on how "I couldn't care less" got corrupted by many to "I could care less", which doesn't make any sense at all. :nono2:


Actually, when you think about it, it sort of does make sense.  If you "couldn't care less", then you wouldn't bother saying anything at all. To even respond (at least to me) would mean that you care enough to voice the opinion that you don't care. I usually just ignore - Anything else is pretty much a waste of time and energy. 

So anyway - Isn't today a Wednesday? Everything exciting at DirecTV happens on Wednesdays, right?


----------



## PoitNarf

:backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop


----------



## tvjay

My tech who came out this morning said that he read where Directv said that in June or July they would be moving my locals to 119. Does that mean that D11 will be up as they are off loading the HDs to D11?


----------



## harsh

tvjay said:


> My tech who came out this morning said that he read where Directv said that in June or July they would be moving my locals to 119. Does that mean that D11 will be up as they are off loading the HDs to D11?


I assume you're trying to make a connection between vacated HD and availability for locals.

My theory is no. Until the serious issue of remaining MPEG2 HD installations is addressed for hundreds (if not thousands) of MDUs, they'll likely stay where they are. The room may actually be coming from LIL being moved to the Ka satellites.


----------



## smiddy

ddobson said:


> *YES*
> 
> And that's a correct answer to your question....
> 
> (said in the tone of Little Jackie Wright from Benny Hill) :lol:


!rolling Nice one...I live in England for 4 years, I miss it and him and his humor.


----------



## smiddy

I bet the next TLE will have us parked... low/high?


----------



## Ed Campbell

dms1 said:


> Thanks for backing me up, but as a true English speaker (I'm from England), I know very well that "allude" (suggest in an indirect way) and "elude" (avoid) are two different words and interchanging them is just plain bad.
> 
> If I can't even get the right words then I shall have to abandon my quest to educate Americans about the difference between "ensure" and "insure", which really bugs me.


I'm confident most didn't get "maths" either.

But, back OT - the suspense is driving me mad!


----------



## Herdfan

harsh said:


> I assume you're trying to make a connection between vacated HD and availability for locals.
> 
> My theory is no. Until the serious issue of remaining MPEG2 HD installations is addressed for hundreds (if not thousands) of MDUs, they'll likely stay where they are. The room may actually be coming from LIL being moved to the Ka satellites.


I agree to a point. They have already freed up 4 channels (2 transponders) worth of room by killing the MPEG-2 LA HD DNS feeds. Thats at least 5-6 DMA's worth of room for SD LIL. How long before the NY MPEG-2 HD DNS channels move to MPEG-4.

The certainly didn't give any consideration to MDU's when they killed the LA HD feeds. Think about how many MDU's there must be in the LA DMA that were receiving LA HD feeds in MPEG-2.


----------



## Herdfan

dms1 said:


> Thanks for backing me up, but as a true English speaker (I'm from England), I know very well that "allude" (suggest in an indirect way) and "elude" (avoid) are two different words and interchanging them is just plain bad.
> 
> If I can't even get the right words then I shall have to abandon my quest to educate Americans about the difference between "ensure" and "insure", which really bugs me.


I do hope it won't "effect" you in the future or the point may be "mute".

Yes, I know they are both wrong.


----------



## lewdok

Very, very sad to see the Rave Channel take a dive... Will probably downgrade or cancel until another cool comercial-free concert station reappears... It will happen sooner or later.... I'm going to go cry now..... bye.:nono2: :nono2:


----------



## LameLefty

lewdok said:


> Very, very sad to see the Rave Channel take a dive... Will probably downgrade or cancel until another cool comercial-free concert station reappears... It will happen sooner or later.... I'm going to go cry now..... bye.:nono2: :nono2:


Um, wrong forum I think.


----------



## Tigerman73

We may be hitting the dead period right before the sat is parked where we get no updates until after the fact.


----------



## man_rob

Herdfan said:


> I agree to a point. They have already freed up 4 channels (2 transponders) worth of room by killing the MPEG-2 LA HD DNS feeds. Thats at least 5-6 DMA's worth of room for SD LIL. How long before the NY MPEG-2 HD DNS channels move to MPEG-4.
> 
> The certainly didn't give any consideration to MDU's when they killed the LA HD feeds. Think about how many MDU's there must be in the LA DMA that were receiving LA HD feeds in MPEG-2.


And it's doubtful that there is a "serious issue" with mpeg2 HD MDUs, as they would most likely be a tiny minority of MDU installations.


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08142.40244300 -.00000087  00000-0  00000+0 0   780
2 32729 000.1104 316.7649 0085374 250.2433 079.6596 01.00022554   745

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-21 09:39:31
Orbit # at Epoch	74
Inclination	0.110
RA of A. Node	316.765
Eccentricity	0.0085374
Argument of Perigee	250.243
Revs per day	1.00022554
Period	23h 59m 40s (1439.67 min)
Semi-major axis	42 235 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 496 x 36 217 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	79.660
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	78 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

perigee + 146km apogee - 128km


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 09:56am[/B] - 2.01 days at Day#64.68 at 5.99km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 11:34am[/B] - 2.08 days at Day#64.75 at 5.79km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE78)
1 32729U 08013A   08142.40244300 -.00000087  00000-0  00000+0 0   780
2 32729 000.1104 316.7649 0085374 250.2433 079.6596 01.00022554   745

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-21-2008 09:39:31[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	74
Inclination		0.110
RA of A. Node		316.765
Eccentricity		0.0085374
Argument of Perigee	250.243
Revs per day		1.00022554
Period			23h 59m 40s (1439.67 min)
Semi-major axis		42 235 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 496 x 36 217 km[/B]
Element number / age	78 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#78 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) [B]35,496 x 36,217 km[/B] (+22.8 hours, at 62.7 days, +146km)
TLE#77 (05-20-2008 10:51:25) 35,350 x 36,345 km (+ 9.4 hours, at 61.7 days, -  2km)
TLE#76 (05-20-2008 01:27:30) 35,352 x 36,444 km (+11.9 hours, at 61.3 days, +146km)
TLE#75 (05-19-2008 13:35:22) 35,206 x 36,441 km (+57.5 hours, at 60.8 days, +318km)
TLE#74 (05-17-2008 04:04:35) 34,888 x 36,903 km (+ 9.2 hours, at 58.4 days, + 95km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## cartrivision

smiddy said:


> I bet the next TLE will have us parked... low/high?


Not a chance. Still several days of small maneuvers coming up after one or two more days of larger maneuvers of the size that have been happening the past week.


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Not a chance. Still several days of small maneuvers coming up after one or two more days of larger maneuvers of the size that have been happening the past week.


"Parked" is relative. D10 was in test mode pretty much continuously, by all reports (with channels visible to those with engineering cards) from the time it was moving around its test slot all the way until it was parked again (and all subsequent relative oscillations damped down) at its final slot.


----------



## LameLefty

Current position is roughly 98.28 W and drifting slowly west.


----------



## cartrivision

LameLefty said:


> "Parked" is relative. D10 was in test mode pretty much continuously, by all reports (with channels visible to those with engineering cards) from the time it was moving around its test slot all the way until it was parked again (and all subsequent relative oscillations damped down) at its final slot.


Getting a test signal has nothing to do with being parked. If the satellite is transmitting now, there may be extended periods where it passes slowly through it's final parking spot and the signal can be received by looking for it at it's intended parking spot, but that doesn't mean that it's parked to within the final tolerances that they are shooting for. That's still days away.


----------



## doctor j

Day92 34847 36770 Delta 1923 Km 
Day93 35763 35844 Delta 81 Km 
Day97 35784 35790 Delta 6 Km

Reviewing Spaceway 1 parking after similar maneuvers Spaceway 1 "dropped" into it's slot in just one day.
Once D-11 is at 99.225 a similar settling might occur!??
By Orbitron this could be tommorow.

Doctor j


----------



## smiddy

cartrivision said:


> Not a chance. Still several days of small maneuvers coming up after one or two more days of larger maneuvers of the size that have been happening the past week.


That's not fair, you waited until after the TLE.


----------



## tvjay

Herdfan said:


> I agree to a point. They have already freed up 4 channels (2 transponders) worth of room by killing the MPEG-2 LA HD DNS feeds. Thats at least 5-6 DMA's worth of room for SD LIL. How long before the NY MPEG-2 HD DNS channels move to MPEG-4.
> 
> The certainly didn't give any consideration to MDU's when they killed the LA HD feeds. Think about how many MDU's there must be in the LA DMA that were receiving LA HD feeds in MPEG-2.


Well if they are gonna move all the SD locals off 72.5 to 119 won't that take pretty much the whole bird? I also thought that he was referencing the HD LIL for my area, but was kind of surprised because I thought my HD LIL were going to be on the new satellite.


----------



## Sixto

All good points.

We really can't be sure how quickly D11 will be "parked"

By looking at D10 (in post#2, also below). It got to this spot at day# 31, but then "tweaked" to parked for 10 days. This was to the original test location.

Right before 9/12/07, D10 then moved over a few days to it's final spot and started sending signals immediately.



Code:


	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B]	[B]D10[/B][B]
[U]Day#[/U]	[U]Low[/U]	[U]High[/U]	[U]Mid[/U]	[/B]
31	35603	36177	35890
32	35644	36057	35851		
33	35630	36051	35841			
34	35663	35964	35814	
35	35740	35919	35830	
36	35737	35864	35801				
37	35739	35876	35808	
38	35742	35809	35776		
40	35784	35789	35787	
41	35784	35787	35786

Spaceway-1 was similar at the end.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> All good points.
> 
> We really can't be sure how quickly D11 will be "parked"
> 
> By looking at D10 (in post#2, also below). It got to this spot at day# 31, but then "tweaked" to parked for 10 days. This was to the original test location.
> 
> Right before 9/12/07, D10 then moved over a few days to it's final spot and started sending signals immediately.


Exactly. And it continued to transmit all the way; in particular, inclination was tweaked downwards for a couple weeks, as I recall, with very small adjustments.

In short, orbits are not fixed and (as I said before) "parked" is a relative lay term. The final targets are almost certainly not the same as what the satellite is capable of operating from, at least with its national transponders (a point I've made before, in fact).


----------



## HoTat2

Herdfan;1610418[B said:


> ]...The certainly didn't give any consideration to MDU's when they killed the LA HD feeds. Think about how many MDU's there must be in the LA DMA that were receiving LA HD feeds in MPEG-2.[/B]


But DirecTV did give consideration to MDU installations who had not yet converted to Ka band reception capability after turning-off the HD MPEG-2 west DNS feeds earlier. They are temporarily broadcasting them in MPEG-4 on Ku band at 101 and 119 until at least late this year to give MDU providers more time to catch-up.

Though a subscriber in such an MDU still needs an MPEG-4 IRD such as the H20/21, HR20/21, or an R22 to receive them.


----------



## DCappy

Day 62.7, TLE#78, 22:48:06 since last TLE (using past 34 TLE average).

Perigee increased 146m and has 290km to go.
Apogee decreased 128km and has 431m to go.

Perigee gaining at an average of 145.33km per day or 6.1km per hour.

2.5 more days or Friday, May 23, 9:25PM to parking it (relatively speaking). Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.


----------



## PoitNarf

DCappy said:


> Day 62.1.7


Reminds me of the beginning of an episode of Star Trek.

"Captain's log, Stardate 43198.7" :lol:


----------



## steveken

Why is it that the only time I get emails that there have been posts here are only AFTER I have already been here to look for myself? I could go a day or so without coming here, never get an email, then look here and see a bunch of posts. THEN it sends me the email telling me there have been posts. Seems kinda screwed up to me.


----------



## doctor j

*SIXTO*
"By looking at D10 (in post#2, also below). It got to this spot at day# 31, but then "tweaked" to parked for 10 days. This was to the original test location."

I'll be the first to admit ; I don't know "jack" about rockets, orbits or satellite maneuvers. I'm facinated by all that has gone on since Spaceway's first launch however.

I have tried to study information available and it seems that no 2 launches are just alike. However the Spaceway 1 launch and "Super-Synchronous Transfer Orbit " orbital maneuvers seem to be most like D-11.

On the present TLE's if nothing is done(which I know is wrong) D-11 will slide past 99° fairly quickly (>2.5° per day).

It seems intuitive (which with my lack of knowledge is VERY dangerous) that as the sat track approachs 99° the "final" maneuvers might take place.

I also understand that the final shifts in orbits of a few Km and inclination (which went up on this TLE) will take several ( perhaps many) days. BUT we'll be in the neighborhood and start the watch for transponder activity.

Doctor j


----------



## curt8403

doctor j said:


> *SIXTO*
> "By looking at D10 (in post#2, also below). It got to this spot at day# 31, but then "tweaked" to parked for 10 days. This was to the original test location."
> 
> I'll be the first to admit ; I don't know "jack" about rockets, orbits or satellite maneuvers. I'm facinated by all that has gone on since Spaceway's first launch however.
> 
> I have tried to study information available and it seems that no 2 launches are just alike. However the Spaceway 1 launch and "Super Transfer" orbital maneuvers seem to be most like D-11.
> 
> On the present TLE's if nothing is done(which I know is wrong) D-11 will slide past 99° fairly quickly (>2.5° per day).
> 
> It seems intuitive (which with my lack of knowledge is VERY dangerous) that as the sat track approachs 99° the "final" maneuvers might take place.
> 
> I also understand that the final shifts in orbits of a few Km and inclination (which went up on this TLE) will take several ( perhaps many) days. BUT we'll be in the neighborhood and start the watch for transponder activity.
> 
> Doctor j


comparisons between d10 and d11 seem to be questionable at best. d10 was not launched at the equator, D11 was. that makes the orbits different beasts


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> comparisons between d10 and d11 seem to be questionable at best. d10 was not launched at the equator, D11 was. that makes the orbits different beasts


At this point, comparisons are valid. No, D10 was launched from the equator but first, Proton is a relatively more powerful launcher than Zenit and therefore can loft a payload to a roughly comparable final orbit (*); and second, this late in the maneuvering game, the final tweaks to be made would have to be made no matter what the launch vehicle or the characteristics of the initial geostationary transfer orbit.

(*) Footnote: if I recall correctly, Proton lofted D10 into a less-eccentric but much more heavily inclined orbit; that inclination was the cause of the weird projected ground tracks we were seeing last summer. By contrast, Zenit lofted D11 into a generally equatorial orbit but with greater initial eccentricity. In both cases, the satellite has to do time-consuming post-separation maneuevers to its final orbit.


----------



## All Dish

Sorry guys, are this signals form D11


----------



## LameLefty

Nope, those are from Spaceway 2 (the current spotbeam sat delivering HD locals at 99W), D10 (delivering national HD and regional sports networks mostly, at 103W) and Spaceway 1 (delivering HD locals at 103W).


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

All Dish said:


> Sorry guys, are this signals form D11


No they are from Spaceway 1, Spaceway 2, and D10.

You will see a SAT 99c when D11 is turned on.


----------



## Sixto

All Dish said:


> Sorry guys, are this signals form D11


No.

First is Spaceway-2.

Second is D10 & Spaceway-1.

Third is D10.


----------



## Sixto

one question ... 3 minutes ... 3 answers ... and they all matched  

that's what u call service!


----------



## P Smith

All Dish said:


> Sorry guys, are this signals form D11


Don't rush young man, give the lady time to prepare.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Don't rush young man, give the lady time to prepare.


yep, a motto to live by for at least the next week or so ... instead of all the "are we there yet?" posts starting Friday ...


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> yep, a motto to live by for at least the next week or so ... instead of all the "are we there yet?" posts starting Friday ...


maybe soon we will hear someone yell (Like Dr. Frankenstein) It's alive!


----------



## houskamp

Sixto said:


> yep, a motto to live by for at least the next week or so ... instead of all the "are we there yet?" posts starting Friday ...


Friday?
ARE WE THERE YET? :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## curt8403

houskamp said:


> Friday?
> ARE WE THERE YET? :lol: :lol: :lol:


no, the Sequel

ARE WE DONE YET?:sure: :sure: :sure:


----------



## Sixto

Seems like there are several steps and we're about to reach the successful conclusion of step-1.

1) get to 99.225 geostationary (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).

2) deploy everything at 99.225. expand / turn on anything not already initiated. tweak things a little to be positioned at 99.225 exactly as is required. in layman's terms, it's one thing to get to an address but another to be positioned exactly as preferred once you reach the address. would expect some time to "tweak" a little for perfection.

3) test everything, especially anything that needed to wait until 99.225.

4) turn on the national and spotbeam transponders. hopefully we'll see the signal meter light up. test/tweak the transponders.

5) turn on some channels.

maybe some of the above has mostly been done but assuming worst case for now.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> Seems like there are several steps and we're about to reach the successful conclusion of step-1.
> 
> 1) get to 99.225 geostationary (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).
> 
> 2) deploy everything at 99.225. expand / turn on anything not already initiated. tweak things a little to be positioned at 99.225 exactly as is required. in layman's terms, it's one thing to get to an address but another to be positioned exactly as preferred once you reach the address. would expect some time to "tweak" a little for perfection.
> 
> 3) test everything, especially anything that needed to wait until 99.225.
> 
> 4) turn on the national and spotbeam transponders. hopefully we'll see the signal meter light up. test/tweak the transponders.
> 
> 5) turn on some channels.
> 
> maybe some of the above has mostly been done but assuming worst case for now.


I was referring to a movie and the sequel. but that is ok


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'm still amazed at how all of this works.


----------



## curt8403

theratpatrol said:


> I'm still amazed at how all of this works.


I am also.


----------



## smiddy

houskamp said:


> Friday?
> ARE WE THERE YET? :lol: :lol: :lol:


To quote Mr. Incredible: "We'll get there when we get there!"


----------



## bruinfever

I wonder why we haven't had a D11 posting in a while?


----------



## curt8403

bruinfever said:


> I wonder why we haven't had a D11 posting in a while?


possibly too busy trying to get ready to talk to the world


----------



## bubbers44

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729

First time I've seen D11 show 0 speed at the east end of it's oscillation. Wish they showed how up to date they are. Kind of disappointed in Heavens Above since their last update was Saturday.


----------



## smiddy

Welp, the predictions from most is tomorrow, I think it'll be today.  I guess I'm too excited to get this satellite online would be too kewl.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729
> 
> First time I've seen D11 show 0 speed at the east end of it's oscillation. Wish they showed how up to date they are. Kind of disappointed in Heavens Above since their last update was Saturday.


At the point at which it stops moving east and starts moving west again the speed relative to the ground, which is what is being reported, has to be zero. This is nothing new or special.


----------



## macmantis

On the n2yo site actually does show what TLE it is using. There is a link on the right side for the directv 11, http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=32729. On this page at the bottom shows the TLE they are using.

MacMantis


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08142.40244300 -.00000087  00000-0  00000+0 0   791
2 32729 000.1104 316.7649 0085374 250.2433 079.6596 01.00022554   745

no change in anything same time stamp and all, just put it as a newer number

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-21 09:39:31
Orbit # at Epoch	74
Inclination	0.110
RA of A. Node	316.765
Eccentricity	0.0085374
Argument of Perigee	250.243
Revs per day	1.00022554
Period	23h 59m 40s (1439.67 min)
Semi-major axis	42 235 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 496 x 36 217 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	79.660
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	79 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## mitoca

That's the same info we got yesterday...


----------



## Sixto

mitoca said:


> That's the same info we got yesterday...


Yep. TLE# 79 is identical to TLE#78. Same timestamp. Identical.


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   [B]08142.40244300[/B] -.00000087  00000-0  00000+0 0   791
2 32729 000.1104 316.7649 0085374 250.2433 079.6596 01.00022554   745
1 32729U 08013A   [B]08142.40244300[/B] -.00000087  00000-0  00000+0 0   780
2 32729 000.1104 316.7649 0085374 250.2433 079.6596 01.00022554   745


----------



## bubbers44

Thanks macmantis. I have always gone to the tracking page and never scrolled down the first page to the TLE info. I know at the E and W of every oscillation relative ground speed is zero, this morning was the first time I happened to be looking at it during one of those times.


----------



## DodgerKing

Two excel graphs. The first shows the graph since TLE 57 and the second shows the last for readings only (This allows us to get a closer visual look at how much more she still has to travel).


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/31/08 02:51pm[/B] - 9.18 days at Day#72.89 at 1.56km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/25/08 05:47am[/B] - 2.81 days at Day#66.51 at 5.11km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE80)
1 32729U 08013A   08143.43652830  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   807
2 32729 000.0529 295.2326 0101520 272.5027 091.0456 00.99974578   805

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		05-22-2008 10:28:36
Orbit # at Epoch	80
Inclination		0.053
RA of A. Node		295.233
Eccentricity		0.0101520
Argument of Perigee	272.503
Revs per day		0.99974578
Period			24h 00m 21s (1440.35 min)
Semi-major axis		42 248 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 441 x 36 299 km
Element number / age	80 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35 441 x 36 299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)
TLE#79 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 62.7 days, +  0km)
TLE#78 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+22.8 hours, at 62.7 days, +146km)
TLE#77 (05-20-2008 10:51:25) 35,350 x 36,345 km (+ 9.4 hours, at 61.7 days, -  2km)
TLE#76 (05-20-2008 01:27:30) 35,352 x 36,444 km (+11.9 hours, at 61.3 days, +146km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## gslater

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08143.43652830  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   807
> 2 32729 000.0529 295.2326 0101520 272.5027 091.0456 00.99974578   805
> 
> 35 441 x 36 299 km
> 
> updating the table ...


To my untrained eye, it looks like eccentricity is actually up and it has moved slightly in the wrong direction (wrong from our standpoint, I'm sure it's doing just what the folks at Boeing want it to do. Unless of course they've got "Wrong Way" Feldman driving this thing).


----------



## Sixto

Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 11:58pm[/B] - 1.51 days at Day#65.27 at 5.11km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 08:35pm[/B] - 1.37 days at Day#65.13 at 5.64km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE81)
1 32729U 08013A   08143.49072581 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   816
2 32729 000.0604 284.2012 0053583 281.1705 113.3464 01.00131919   751

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-22-2008 11:46:38[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	75
Inclination		0.060
RA of A. Node		284.201
Eccentricity		0.0053583
Argument of Perigee	281.171
Revs per day		1.00131919
Period			23h 58m 06s (1438.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 204 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 600 x 36 052 km[/B]
Element number / age	81 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) [B]35,600 x 36,052 km[/B] (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35,441 x 36,299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)
TLE#79 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 62.7 days, +  0km)
TLE#78 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+22.8 hours, at 62.7 days, +146km)
TLE#77 (05-20-2008 10:51:25) 35,350 x 36,345 km (+ 9.4 hours, at 61.7 days, -  2km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## gslater

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08143.49072581 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   816
> 2 32729 000.0604 284.2012 0053583 281.1705 113.3464 01.00131919   751
> 
> updating ...


Now that makes a LOT more sense. Wonder what the previous one was all about.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Come on and light it up already.


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> Now that makes a LOT more sense. Wonder what the previous one was all about.


Phasing; i.e., getting the orbital ground track where they want it so that at some future projected time, they can make a specific further maneuver in some optimum way.


----------



## LameLefty

The new TLE is getting oh so very close . . .


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> The new TLE is getting oh so very close . . .


yep!

both previous posts for TLE#80 and TLE#81 have been updated. Along with post#2.


----------



## timmac

DCrappy, hit me with those projection digits. You prognosticator of prognosticators.


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest two graphs to include 80 and 81


----------



## doctor j

Just for those who want to follow.
Sealaunch was successful with Intelesat Galaxy 18 yesterday.
Initial TLE code 32951 shows orbit at 2718 Km x 35497 Km

Doctor j


----------



## Matt9876

My plot shows intersection with geo-sync orbit at TLE #83 with a parking burn during TLE#84

Close very close..


----------



## ziltomil

TLE 80 looks like they did mostly a plane change and reduced their inclination.


----------



## bubbers44

Thanks Sixto for the update. Maybe that pilot running around naked through the woods with a watch and flip flops did #80 TLE. Hope his flight attendant was hot to make it worth getting fired for. Back on topic. Kind of envy him though.


----------



## bruinfever

Talk about baby steps..........


----------



## DCappy

TLE#79 is the same as TLE#78.

WAG, someone ask their computer system for a TLE Date/Time stamped exactly the same as the previous one (8142.40244300) and the system dutifully upgraded the TLE number and spit out the new TLE. This could explain some of the other strange TLEs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day 63.7, TLE#80, 24:49:05 since last TLE (using past 35 TLE average).

Perigee decreased 55m and has 345km to go.
Apogee increased 82km and has 513m to go.

Gaining at an average of 139.40km per day or 5.8km per hour.

3.1 more days or Sunday, May 25, 12:52PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up. See Below*

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Day 63.8, TLE#81, 1:18:03 since last TLE (using past 36 TLE average).

Perigee increased 159km and has 186km to go.
Apogee decreased 247km and has 266km to go.

Gaining at an average of 143.77km per day or 6.0km per hour.

1.6 more days or Saturday, May 24, 1:22PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up. See Below*

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Sixto Post#2402

Seems like there are several steps and we're about to reach the successful conclusion of step-1.

1) get to 99.225 geostationary (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).

2) deploy everything at 99.225. expand / turn on anything not already initiated. tweak things a little to be positioned at 99.225 exactly as is required. in layman's terms, it's one thing to get to an address but another to be positioned exactly as preferred once you reach the address. would expect some time to "tweak" a little for perfection.

3) test everything, especially anything that needed to wait until 99.225.

4) turn on the national and spotbeam transponders. hopefully we'll see the signal meter light up. test/tweak the transponders.

5) turn on some channels.

maybe some of the above has mostly been done but assuming worst case for now.


----------



## dms1

DCappy said:


> TLE#79 is the same as TLE#78.
> 
> WAG, someone ask their computer system for a TLE Date/Time stamped exactly the same as the previous one (8142.40244300) and the system dutifully upgraded the TLE number and spit out the new TLE. This could explain some of the other strange TLEs.


The TLEs originate from two separate tracking centers that occasionally switch over which one is in control. It may be that for whatever reason both centers generated and released TLEs at the same time, probably around the time of a switchover.


----------



## DCappy

dms1 said:


> The TLEs originate from two separate tracking centers that occasionally switch over which one is in control. It may be that for whatever reason both centers generated and released TLEs at the same time, probably around the time of a switchover.


Makes sense. Maybe they should communicate with each other. This also asnwers the problem with the earlier TLEs.


----------



## gregjones

DCappy said:


> Makes sense. Maybe they should communicate with each other. This also asnwers the problem with the earlier TLEs.


I am betting they communicate quite a bit. We are not the primary audience for that information. We might wish that they communicate more *with us* but they probably have more important things to do, like not losing that satellite.


----------



## DCappy

gregjones said:


> I am betting they communicate quite a bit. We are not the primary audience for that information. We might wish that they communicate more *with us* but they probably have more important things to do, like not losing that satellite.


Agreed, *"We are not the primary audience for that information."
* 
If TLEs weren't important, then I doubt they would report them.

My point was that the sloppy paper work explains the quirky TLEs.


----------



## Sixto

Another TLE#81 was posted.

Older timestamp. Gonna ignore it for now.


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08143.40551583  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   818
2 32729 000.0591 279.8733 0054925 286.4670 081.6527 01.00111414   807
1 32729U 08013A   08143.49072581 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   816
2 32729 000.0604 284.2012 0053583 281.1705 113.3464 01.00131919   751
1 32729U 08013A   08143.43652830  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   807
2 32729 000.0529 295.2326 0101520 272.5027 091.0456 00.99974578   805


----------



## LameLefty

Oh so close . . .



Code:


Name	Directv 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-22 09:43:56
Orbit # at Epoch	80
Inclination	0.059
RA of A. Node	279.873
Eccentricity	0.0054925
Argument of Perigee	286.467
Revs per day	1.00111414
Period	23h 58m 23s (1438.38 min)
Semi-major axis	42 210 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 600 x 36 063 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	81.653
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	81 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## ddobson

I'm just a little curious. There's obviously a difference in how they launch the satellites. What are the pro's and con's? I'm not talking about who launches it but how fast it gets to the correct orbit.

Back when 4S was launched on November 27th 2001, it was in service before Christmas. They were under the gun from the new law and had to have certain channels up before January 1st. But that satellite did not take 2 months to go into the correct orbit.

Again its just curious, I can wait and I'm not impatient. This is more of a learning thing for me and curiosity. 

I know this is a much more complex satellite and there will be more testing once it reaches orbit. I'm mainly curious about the time differences to reach orbit and why....

Thanks for any info!

Dwayne


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> Oh so close . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Name    Directv 11
> NORAD #    32729
> COSPAR designator    2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)    2008-05-22 09:43:56
> Orbit # at Epoch    80
> Inclination    0.059
> RA of A. Node    279.873
> Eccentricity    0.0054925
> Argument of Perigee    286.467
> Revs per day    1.00111414
> Period    23h 58m 23s (1438.38 min)
> Semi-major axis    42 210 km
> Perigee x Apogee    35 600 x 36 063 km
> BStar (drag term)    0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly    81.653
> Propagation model    SDP4
> Element number / age    81 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS    N/A
> Diameters    N/A
> Satellite group    N/A


oh, I almost see a circle. maybe tomorrow?


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> oh, I almost see a circle. maybe tomorrow?


we like circles 

And HD!


----------



## DCappy

Sixto said:


> Another TLE#81 was posted.
> 
> Older timestamp. Gonna ignore it for now.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08143.40551583  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   818
> 2 32729 000.0591 279.8733 0054925 286.4670 081.6527 01.00111414   807
> 1 32729U 08013A   08143.49072581 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   816
> 2 32729 000.0604 284.2012 0053583 281.1705 113.3464 01.00131919   751
> 1 32729U 08013A   08143.43652830  .00000000  00000-0  10000-3 0   807
> 2 32729 000.0529 295.2326 0101520 272.5027 091.0456 00.99974578   805


Date/Time stamp is 00:44:39 prior to TLE#80???


----------



## LameLefty

Basically, it kind of boils down to this: If you are in a big hurry, you use a substantially smaller (mass-wise) satellite and/or a substantially more powerful booster and you let the booster's upper stage act as a transfer stage and do fewer, bigger burns to kind of "brute force" the orbit until you get pretty close, then it only takes a few days to a few weeks to get things finalized using the satellite's own propulsion assets to tweak. If you choose that approach, however, you have to be VERY careful so as to slot that transfer orbit into the existing GSO belt of satellites without interfering with them.

D10 and D11 (and D12 next year) are very massive satellites - the existing commercial launch options available basically cannot brute-force things like that. However, a substantial fraction of the mass of these satellites is fuel - so using the propulsion of the satellite itself is a viable (if slow) method of accomplishing the same end result, at the cost of time and fuel.

Alternatively, Directv could have shelled out a few hundred million bucks and paid for a launch on a Delta IV instead of Proton or Sea-Launch, but I doubt they thought that was a good financial idea.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> we like circles
> 
> And HD!


Ya, It was the Late, Great Harry Chapin who said "All My Life's A Circle"


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> Ya, It was the Late, Great Harry Chapin who said "All My Life's A Circle"


A nice circle:


----------



## PoitNarf

Sixto said:


> A nice circle:


Probably about as close to a manmade perfect circle as can be.


----------



## timmac

All perfect circles are man-made, no?


----------



## ddobson

LameLefty said:


> Alternatively, Directv could have shelled out a few hundred million bucks and paid for a launch on a Delta IV instead of Proton or Sea-Launch, but I doubt they thought that was a good financial idea.


I agree not good financial sense. Want to keep the ability to have the satellite with the longest life possible and that includes fuel.

I was just curious in the differences and you have explained it very well.

I thank you very much for your time and reply!

And of course, back when 4S was launched, unless I'm mistaken, the spacing between satellites was significantly greater as well. That would result in less chance of interference as well.


----------



## Sixto

At this very moment:


Code:


DirecTV-11
Lon		[B]99.2582° W[/B]
Lat		0.0018° S
Alt (km)	[B]35,832.930[/B]
Azm		292.9°
Elv		-24.2°
RA		07h 16m 07s
Decl		-6° 33' 24"
Range (km)	44 429.945
RRt (km/s)	-0.015
Vel (km/s)	3.073
Direction	Descending
Eclipse		No
MA (phase)	268.7° (190)
TA		268.1°
Orbit #		75
Mag (illum)	Not visible
Constellation	Mon


----------



## mgtr

timmac said:


> All perfect circles are man-made, no?


Unless, of course, they are alien-made.


----------



## PoitNarf

timmac said:


> All perfect circles are man-made, no?


Perfect circles exist only in theory. It is physically impossible to create one in nature, there will always be some extremely minute flaw that will take away from the circle's "perfection".

Even with a reliable constant, like that good old gravitational constant G, there are still many other forces acting upon every object in the universe. I guess in theory you could create your own universe with no forces at all except gravity and have 1 fixed object and 1 orbiting object to obtain a perfect circle, but I'm fairly sure a scenario like that will remain nothing but theory


----------



## bubbers44

How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


----------



## Sixto

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


----------



## dms1

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure *insure* no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


Don't you mean "ensure"? :nono2:


----------



## Matt9876

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


They always keep the birds a couple of hundred mile apart for that reason.


----------



## PoitNarf

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


It is my understanding that the satellites in that area that are parked are still several miles away from one another. I'm sure part of their procedures once they're close to the final orbital slot is to monitor other nearby satellites to make sure that they are where they're supposed to be so that they can plan their trajectories accordingly. The closer they get to where they need to be, the less they need to move the satellite to get it in position. So it would seem the risk of collision diminishes as it gets closer to it's final parking spot.


----------



## ddobson

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


Maybe they should just put spring loaded rubber bumpers on the edges of the solar panels...


----------



## Ed Campbell

dms1 said:


> Don't you mean "ensure"? :nono2:


:lol:


----------



## houskamp

dms1 said:


> Don't you mean "ensure"? :nono2:


where not that old :lol:
http://ensure.com/products/index.aspx


----------



## cartrivision

PoitNarf said:


> ....it would seem the risk of collision diminishes as it gets closer to it's final parking spot.


Except that it's sharing the 99 degree slot with one other satellite, but even if there is only a few hundredths of a degree of seperation between the two satellites, they would still be at least 10 miles apart.


----------



## curt8403

ddobson said:


> Maybe they should just put spring loaded rubber bumpers on the edges of the solar panels...


I would love to have all those solar panels on my roof.


----------



## cartrivision

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.
> 
> 
> 
> dms1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you mean "ensure"? :nono2:
Click to expand...

I can assure you that he probably did, although it may be insurred to ensure that they are covered in case something goes wrong as they usher it into position. :smoking:


----------



## oldfantom

houskamp said:


> where not that old :lol:
> http://ensure.com/products/index.aspx


What was not that old? We're feeling pretty spy down here in Tx.:grin:


----------



## LameLefty

cartrivision said:


> Except that it's sharing the 99 degree slot with one other satellite, but even if there is only a few hundredths of a degree of seperation between the two satellites, they would still be at least 10 miles apart.


I did the math back in the old D10 Technical thread last summer, but Cartrivision is correct. The satellites are as close together as seen from earth so that an LNB positioned at the correct focus point of the dish can receive signals from multiple sats at one apparent point in space. However, a tiny angular separation - when projected out to the distance of a GSO satellite - results in miles of physical separation from one another.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> I did the math back in the old D10 Technical thread last summer, but Cartrivision is correct. The satellites are as close together as seen from earth so that an LNB positioned at the correct focus point of the dish can receive signals from multiple sats at one apparent point in space. However, a tiny angular separation - when projected out to the distance of a GSO satellite - results in miles of physical separation from one another.


One of the old Astra promo videos said the area is a cube with each dimension around 150km IIRC. Thought I wonder if its tighter for Ka. SES Astra has 7 satellites parked at 19.2E, so 2 is not a big deal


----------



## GLJones

I would also think that any maneuver burn would have to be planned so a loss of communication with the sat after the burn would not leave it on a collision course with another sat. Setting it on a path, even temporarily, that would eventually collide could be a big problem if control is lost.


----------



## smiddy

Woowho!


----------



## bubbers44

dms1, yes, I meant ensure, I have wondered how they maneuver those things around and not come into a conflict with other satellites in the same area even though the chances of collision are so small. In airplanes we have systems to avoid conflict but out there I don't think they do. I guess the ISS has a system to avoid space junk too I but don't think D11 does.


----------



## bobnielsen

tuff bob said:


> One of the old Astra promo videos said the area is a cube with each dimension around 150km IIRC. Thought I wonder if its tighter for Ka. SES Astra has 7 satellites parked at 19.2E, so 2 is not a big deal


The half-power beamwidth of a Slimline dish is a around 1.5-2.0 degrees at Ka-band, so an inter-satellite spacing of 100 miles or so would have little effect on signal strength.


----------



## bubbers44

bubbers44 said:


> dms1, yes, I meant ensure, I have wondered how they maneuver those things around and not come into a conflict with other satellites in the same area even though the chances of collision are so small. In airplanes we have systems to avoid conflict but out there I don't think they do. I guess the ISS has a system to avoid space junk too I but don't think D11 does.


I screwed up that sentence too. But I is what I thought I typed. I will ensure I don't screw up insure again.


----------



## betterdan

curt8403 said:


> Ya, It was the Late, Great Harry Chapin who said "All My Life's A Circle"


I thought he said..

"I'm flying in my taxi, taking tips, and getting stoned. I go flying so high, when I'm stoned." :jump3:


----------



## curt8403

betterdan said:


> I thought he said..
> 
> "I'm flying in my taxi, taking tips, and getting stoned. I go flying so high, when I'm stoned." :jump3:


oh ya, Taxi, but he also did a song about 30,000 pounds of Bananas.


----------



## FHSPSU67

curt8403 said:


> oh ya, Taxi, but he also did a song about 30,000 pounds of Bananas.


In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. We have a local musician who does that song. Funny!


----------



## curt8403

FHSPSU67 said:


> In Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. We have a local mucician whoe does that song. Funny!


It is a true story from Scranton, PA


----------



## Paul A

bubbers44 said:


> How does the final parking procedure insure no collision with satellites already parked? I know the possibility is remote but they must consider it as a factor.


Good news, Direct TV just saved a bunch of money on their insurance by switching to Geico.

Now let's park this sucker!!!


----------



## mgtr

Riddle me this: How do I ensure that I have insured my assets properly?


----------



## Balzacula

Let me reassure, that being properly insured, is all the assurance you need.:grin:


----------



## gslater

Balzacula said:


> Let me reassure, that being properly insured, is all the assurance you need.:grin:


To be more clear, ensuring that you are insured will ensure that your spouse is properly reassured!:grin:


----------



## steveken

Okay, enough of the lame puns please.


----------



## Smthkd

steveken said:


> Okay, enough of the lame puns please.


 EXACTLY!!!:backtotop

:lol: :lol:


----------



## gslater

steveken said:


> Okay, enough of the lame puns please.


Sorry 

We're just getting a little punchy waiting for them to PARK THIS THING!

:backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> Okay, enough of the lame puns please.


What about lame usernames?


----------



## gslater

LameLefty said:


> What about lame usernames?


I believe you resemble that remark :lol:

In all seriousness though, I've learned a lot from you, both during this launch and the launch of D10. I guess I'm just over excited with D11 being so close to being parked and my first DVR coming this weekend.


----------



## steveken

If you are punchy, go find your dog and exert that energy on it. (not meaning to punch it, unless you really want to.)


----------



## ziltomil

If all the data right directv 11 should be parked right now.


----------



## EaglePC

I see signals on sat 103(s) transponders 17-24 ?


----------



## bruinfever

ziltomil said:


> If all the data right directv 11 should be parked right now.


I thought the estimate was for Friday Night?


----------



## Jeremy W

EaglePC said:


> I see signals on sat 103(s) transponders 17-24 ?


Transponders 17 and 22 should have a signal, and it's coming from D10. It has nothing to do with D11, which is going to be 99(s) or 99(b) on your signal strength screen.


----------



## cartrivision

bruinfever said:


> I thought the estimate was for Friday Night?


It might be very close by then, but there will still be another week of tweaking it's position before it's exactly there and in a nominal geostationary orbit.


----------



## ziltomil

bruinfever said:


> I thought the estimate was for Friday Night?


Directv 11 just past perigee around 12:20AM ET. That is the position where directv 11 can lower it's apogee to the appropriate height, some 200+ km to 35786km. All the TLE data that we analyze here is generated after the spacecraft passes perigee but before noon Eastern time. So tomorrow morning we should get the confirmation.


----------



## levibluewa

99b screen shows 6 (transponders) Total at 99 b. Is that old news?

0 95 0 97 0 96 n/a n/a etc.


----------



## bobnielsen

levibluewa said:


> 99b screen shows 6 (transponders) Total at 99 b. Is that old news?
> 
> 0 95 0 97 0 96 n/a n/a etc.


 Those are spotbeams from Spaceway 2. Directv 11 will probably show up as 99c first and as additional transponders on 99b/99s later.


----------



## Jeremy W

levibluewa said:


> 99b screen shows 6 (transponders) Total at 99 b. Is that old news?


Yes. I said 99(b), but I meant 99(a). I got mixed up with 103's conventions.


----------



## man_rob

Will today be the day?


----------



## MIAMI1683

man_rob said:


> Will today be the day?


 I hope so. I would like to see transponder signals tonight. I may not but I would like to!


----------



## MIMOTech

D11 should be 99(c). 99(s) is already in place.


----------



## LameLefty

MIMOTech said:


> D11 should be 99(c). 99(s) is already in place.


A good number of the "n/a" readings on 99(s) should go live with D11, since one of that satellite's major roles is to add spotbeam capacity for many more local HD markets.


----------



## dms1

MIAMI1683 said:


> I hope so. I would like to see transponder signals tonight. I may not but I would like to!


Remember it's Memorial day weekend. Even if D11 is in position today they may not be in a hurry to start any testing until Tuesday.


----------



## Athlon646464

dms1 said:


> Remember it's Memorial day weekend. Even if D11 is in position today they may not be in a hurry to start any testing until Tuesday.


Excuses, excuses................

:crying:


----------



## Indiana627

dms1 said:


> Remember it's Memorial day weekend. Even if D11 is in position today they may not be in a hurry to start any testing until Tuesday.


The NASA scientists and engineers aren't taking the weekend off. They're landing the Mars Phoenix on Sunday night.


----------



## Ken984

new tle


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08144.50000000 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   827
2 32729 000.0480 295.3240 0016680 268.7210 118.2420 01.00160077   762

really really close now...

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-23 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	76
Inclination	0.048
RA of A. Node	295.324
Eccentricity	0.0016680
Argument of Perigee	268.721
Revs per day	1.00160077
Period	23h 57m 41s (1437.68 min)
Semi-major axis	42 196 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 748 x 35 888 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	118.242
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	82 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	99.1248° W
Lat	0.0543° N
Alt (km)	35 877.380
Azm	189.9°
Elv	51.9°
RA	23h 27m 46s
Decl	-5° 11' 49"
Range (km)	37 049.031
RRt (km/s)	0.003
Vel (km/s)	3.069
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	148.6° (105)
TA	148.7°
Orbit #	76
Mag (illum)	? (32%)
Constellation	Aqr
2Sun
Azm	85.3°
Elv	33.5°
RA	04h 02m 53s
Decl	20° 43' 49"
Lon	31.1004° W
Lat	20.7200° N
Range (km)	151 486 887
Constellation	Tau
3Moon
Azm	240.4°
Elv	-3.7°
RA	18h 45m 35s
Decl	-26° 45' 56"
Lon	169.3691° W
Lat	26.2536° S
Range (km)	404 228
Illum	88%
Phase	Waning gibbous
Constellation	Sgr

Let the Testing begin!!!


----------



## bhelton71

LameLefty said:


> A good number of the "n/a" readings on 99(s) should go live with D11, since one of that satellite's major roles is to add spotbeam capacity for many more local HD markets.


What 'areas' are waiting for additional or new spotbeams ? I am guessing I would see little or no signal in Indianapolis. But wasn't one the problem areas on D10 the upper Pacific coast - like Oregon and Washington ? If that is correct I am guessing they would get some new signals.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> new tle
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08144.50000000 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   827
> 2 32729 000.0480 295.3240 0016680 268.7210 118.2420 01.00160077   762


35 748 x 35 888 km


----------



## Sixto

the new TLE#82 is also one of those wacky time stamps ...

08144.50000000

we'll see ...

updating table now ...


----------



## Ken984

Probably another tle coming soon, due to the timestamp issue. Also orbitron shows D11 should be at apogee soon, so maybe another burn coming up.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> Probably another tle coming soon, due to the timestamp issue. Also orbitron shows D11 should be at apogee soon, so maybe another burn coming up.


Yep, agree.

Here's the updated table ... the projections are really worthless (but will include anyway) because the rest is tweaking, and we really need both the apogee and perigee the same.



Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 07:23pm[/B] - 0.31 days at Day#65.08 at 5.01km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 06:34pm[/B] - 0.27 days at Day#65.04 at 5.63km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE82)
1 32729U 08013A   08144.50000000 -.00000098  00000-0  00000+0 0   827
2 32729 000.0480 295.3240 0016680 268.7210 118.2420 01.00160077   762

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		05-23-2008 12:00:00
Orbit # at Epoch	76
Inclination		0.048
RA of A. Node		295.324
Eccentricity		0.0016680
Argument of Perigee	268.721
Revs per day		1.00160077
Period			23h 57m 41s (1437.68 min)
Semi-major axis		42 196 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 748 x 35 888 km
Element number / age	82 / 0 day(s)


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) 35,600 x 36,052 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35,441 x 36,299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)
TLE#79 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 62.7 days, +  0km)
TLE#78 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+22.8 hours, at 62.7 days, +146km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Sixto

we've had the 12:00:00 timestamp for D11 a few times ... for this D11 example below, the TLE's following the 12:00:00 TLE had earlier timestamps ... this is all good, tweaking/positioning going on ...


Code:


TLE#59 (05-01-2008 10:53:37) 32,718 x 38,919 km (+ 2.0 hours, at 42.7 days, -  4km)
TLE#58 (05-01-2008 08:56:17) 32,722 x 38,942 km (+ 4.7 hours, at 42.6 days, - 10km)
TLE#57 (05-01-2008 12:00:00) 32,732 x 38,987 km (+ 1.1 hours, at 42.8 days, + 14km)

The current apogee (if we believe the 12:00:00 TLE) is just off by 38km and the perigee is off by 102km. Exact placement now is 99.1444° W.

Also, the movement (east/west) is totally within 99°.


----------



## PoitNarf

dms1 said:


> Remember it's Memorial day weekend. Even if D11 is in position today they may not be in a hurry to start any testing until Tuesday.


You're kidding right? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they've got a day shift and night shift alternating their testing procedures. I know I would if I had a multimillion dollar piece of equipment up there and almost ready to go!


----------



## dms1

PoitNarf said:


> You're kidding right? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they've got a day shift and night shift alternating their testing procedures. I know I would if I had a multimillion dollar piece of equipment up there and almost ready to go!


No - I'm not kidding. Whilst lots of people here are getting really excited about this, to Boeing (who I believe are still in control of D11 at this point) this is just another satellite launch. Obviously the group responsible for station keeping will operate 24/7, as will the initial positioning group (because maneuvers are time sensitive), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the people tasked with testing the systems only work Monday to Friday. Is a one day delay in turning on the transponders going to change anything? No!


----------



## PoitNarf

dms1 said:


> No - I'm not kidding. Whilst lots of people here are getting really excited about this, to Boeing (who I believe are still in control of D11 at this point) this is just another satellite launch. Obviously the group responsible for station keeping will operate 24/7, as will the initial positioning group (because maneuvers are time sensitive), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the people tasked with testing the systems only work Monday to Friday. Is a one day delay in turning on the transponders going to change anything? No!


Hmmm perhaps you're right. For some reason I thought control had already been handed over to DirecTV. Please excuse my wild presumptions


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Exact placement now is 99.1444° W.
> 
> Also, the movement (east/west) is totally within 99°.


I wonder if its "close enough" they could fire up a transponder now :lol:

Gentlemen, start your signal strength meters!!!!!


----------



## Vinny*

Does anyone have an idea when we will start seeing any added channels for the new satellite?


----------



## tuff bob

Vinny* said:


> Does anyone have an idea when we will start seeing any added channels for the new satellite?


best guess is maybe by july 1.


----------



## Sixto

"On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for
a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to
conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry,
tracking and control operations necessary to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location in accordance with the terms, conditions, and
technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1204A1.pdf


----------



## tuff bob

AHA. Memorial Day weekend for firing up transponders


----------



## MIAMI1683

Sixto said:


> "On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for
> a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to
> conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry,
> tracking and control operations necessary to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location in accordance with the terms, conditions, and
> technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1204A1.pdf


 So testing could start on Sunday!


----------



## man_rob

tuff bob said:


> AHA. Memorial Day weekend for firing up transponders


Don't you just love steak cooked over a hot transponder.


----------



## PoitNarf

It says 99.4 in that release. Is that a testing slot?


----------



## koolbrz2

tuff bob said:


> best guess is maybe by july 1.


Any hints or clues as to what new DMA'S may be announced ??

Or would there be any place to look for news about them, particularly the Norfolk
one ??


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> It says 99.4 in that release. Is that a testing slot?


Yes.

Similar to D10, which also had a test slot. We thought D11 was going directly to 99.225 (per previous FCC filings).

For D10, we did not see any transponder readings until the move to it's final location.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

PoitNarf said:


> It says 99.4 in that release. Is that a testing slot?


Yes, it says it is the testing spot for 30 days.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Sixto said:


> Yes.
> 
> Similar to D10, which also had a test slot. We thought D11 was going directly to 99.225 (per previous FCC filings).
> 
> For D10, we did not see any transponder readings until the move to it's final location.


I think D* made sure we didn't see any signals on that one. I'm guessing but they may want to test the spot beams thouroughly. Who better do that then us with them.


----------



## smiddy

Nice, now lets see some action DirecTV 11...


----------



## Sixto

If it goes like D10 ...

They'll test at 99.4 for up to 30 days.

They'll take a few days to move to 99.225.

We'll then see all the transponder readings light up.

New HD channels will show a week or two later.


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> "On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for
> a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to
> conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry,
> tracking and control operations necessary to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location in accordance with the terms, conditions, and
> technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1204A1.pdf


This seems worthy of a DBS Talk headline.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

man_rob said:


> This seems worthy of a DBS Talk headline.


Yes...an important milestone item.


----------



## tcusta00

And the front page has been way too Dish-centric these days anyway.


----------



## man_rob

tcusta00 said:


> And the front page has been way too Dish-centric these days anyway.


With the way things have been going over there lately...I won't begrudge them that.


----------



## LameLefty

Excellent news-find from the FCC, Sixto! :up: :goodjob:


----------



## Herdfan

Sixto said:


> If it goes like D10 ...
> 
> They'll test at 99.4 for up to 30 days.


Will D11 need as much testing as D10? D10 was the first one of its kind for D*, so I'm sure they wanted to test it well. But D7S was live in about 2 weeks since it was a clone of other D* sats.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Excellent news-find from the FCC, Sixto! :up: :goodjob:


Yep, was glad to see the filing. Now that clears up the last piece of the puzzle. Didn't seem like they'd go directly to 99.225 but nothing was available that stated otherwise.

Will now probably follow the same approach as D10. Hopefully quicker with no issues. Keep our fingers crossed.


----------



## machavez00

When will 99(c) show in the menu?


----------



## Sixto

Here's the D10 thread for those looking for similarities: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91383

I don't remember, but thought P Smith and others with special gear were able to detect D10 well before it showed on 9/12/2007 in any signal strength screen.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Good find Sixto!! Excellent news!


----------



## NCMAT

Just wondering what enables the new satellite in the signal strength menu. Is this done with a software update to the receivers or is it already there and DirecTV just has to enable it somehow.


----------



## LameLefty

NCMAT said:


> Just wondering what enables the new satellite in the signal strength menu. Is this done with a software update to the receivers or is it already there and DirecTV just has to enable it somehow.


I seem to remember from the D10 activation phase that is just showed up one day, without requiring new software or a reboot.


----------



## bobnielsen

MIMOTech said:


> D11 should be 99(c). 99(s) is already in place.


Assuming it goes the same as D10, the CONUS beams will be 99(c) and spotbeams will be 99(s) on different spotbeams than the current 99(s) listings (the N/A will become real transponders).


----------



## DCappy

Day 64.8, TLE#82, 24:13:21 since last TLE (using past 37 TLE average).

Perigee increased 148km and has 38km to go.
Apogee decreased 164km and has 102km to go.

Gaining at an average of 143.85km per day or 6.0km per hour.

0.5 more days or Friday, May 23, 11:36PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up. See Below*

Perigee = 35,748km x Apogee = 35,888km , Target 35786km.

One more burn to begin the apogee down?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Sixto Post#2402

Seems like there are several steps and we're about to reach the successful conclusion of step-1.

1) get to 99.225 geostationary (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).

2) deploy everything at 99.225. expand / turn on anything not already initiated. tweak things a little to be positioned at 99.225 exactly as is required. in layman's terms, it's one thing to get to an address but another to be positioned exactly as preferred once you reach the address. would expect some time to "tweak" a little for perfection.

3) test everything, especially anything that needed to wait until 99.225.

4) turn on the national and spotbeam transponders. hopefully we'll see the signal meter light up. test/tweak the transponders.

5) turn on some channels.

maybe some of the above has mostly been done but assuming worst case for now.


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> *Sixto Post#2402 ...


DCappy,

With the news today (5/23/2008 FCC Filing), here's an updated list ...

1) get to the 99.4° geostationary "test" location (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).

2) deploy everything at the 99.4° "test" location. expand / turn on anything not already initiated. tweak things a little to be positioned at 99.4° exactly as is required. in layman's terms, it's one thing to get to an address but another to be positioned exactly as preferred once you reach the address. would expect some time to "tweak" a little for perfection.

3) test everything, especially anything that needed to wait until 99.4°.

4) move to the 99.225° "final" location (at 35,786km apogee/perigee).

5) turn on the national and spotbeam transponders. hopefully we'll see the signal meter light up. test/tweak the transponders.

6) turn on some new HD channels.

Note: Fairly certain that step#5 usually doesn't happen before step #4, but those with spectrum analyzers have seen signals in the past during steps 1-3.


----------



## bruinfever

Maybe its just me but I'm a little disheartened by the 30 day testing slot. I was under the assumption that because this was their 2nd KA satellite the testing would be shorter than D10....:nono:


----------



## Sixto

bruinfever said:


> Maybe its just me but I'm a little disheartened by the 30 day testing slot. I was under the assumption that because this was their 2nd KA satellite the testing would be shorter than D10....:nono:


It probably will be less then 30 days if all goes well.

The key is "if all goes well". Must allocate 30 days just in case.


----------



## oldfantom

You would hate to ask for ten days of testing and need 11. Thirty days has to have a fudge factor. You would think. Of course, that isn't to say that they can't file for an extension on day 25 if they think they will need it.


----------



## jacmyoung

LameLefty said:


> I seem to remember from the D10 activation phase that is just showed up one day, without requiring new software or a reboot.


Good to know, I guess if I climb up the roof and start releasing gas at the dish I could see some readings too without any software update?

Seriously, I have been waiting to hear such great news, let's get the testing done ASAP, and give me that Travel Channel HD already!


----------



## Dave

Once again I feel this great need to remind all, DirectV is not scheduled at this time to light up D11 until...........SEPTEMBER. So it may be a long wait for them to get everything ready exactly as they want. This also gives them more time to sign up more national channels for us to watch. They are probably wanting to go to that 150 National Channels that they will be capable of. It does take time to get there agreements with all the national channels and come to there agreements for coverage. But now that D11 is going into its final stages, they, Direct can show the station operators, that hey we already have the capacity to send you to 17 Million homes. There is probably a lot of negotiations going on right now that we know nothing about. I for one would love to see this magnificent Sat light up right now. But reality says otherwise.


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> Once again I feel this great need to remind all, DirectV is not scheduled at this time to light up D11 until...........SEPTEMBER. So it may be a long wait for them to get everything ready exactly as they want. This also gives them more time to sign up more national channels for us to watch. They are probably wanting to go to that 150 National Channels that they will be capable of. It does take time to get there agreements with all the national channels and come to there agreements for coverage. But now that D11 is going into its final stages, they, Direct can show the station operators, that hey we already have the capacity to send you to 17 Million homes. There is probably a lot of negotiations going on right now that we know nothing about. I for one would love to see this magnificent Sat light up right now. But reality says otherwise.


The "September" date was in a press release within hours of the launch. That was the best "very safe" date at the time.

Recently, DirecTV executives referenced "summer".

D11 will go "live" as soon as it's ready.

Best guess right now is late June.

Today's FCC Filing is VERY good news. First, we know when they'll start (Sunday), and secondly it only requested 30 days. All is good (at the moment).


----------



## D*HR-20

Dave said:


> Once again I feel this great need to remind all, DirectV is not scheduled at this time to light up D11 until...........SEPTEMBER. So it may be a long wait for them to get everything ready exactly as they want. This also gives them more time to sign up more national channels for us to watch. They are probably wanting to go to that 150 National Channels that they will be capable of. It does take time to get there agreements with all the national channels and come to there agreements for coverage. But now that D11 is going into its final stages, they, Direct can show the station operators, that hey we already have the capacity to send you to 17 Million homes. There is probably a lot of negotiations going on right now that we know nothing about. I for one would love to see this magnificent Sat light up right now. But reality says otherwise.


Let me remind you that they won't sit on a bird that is working waiting for September if nothing is wrong with D11. If we have to wait until September to see anything even a signal meter reading from it, I will be shocked. They said September not because they won't use it before it, but they figured "OK, what is the absolute worst case scenario for D11 and not have it not work at all and that is the date we will give everyone."


----------



## Sixto

D*HR-20 said:


> Let me remind you that they won't sit on a bird that is working waiting for September if nothing is wrong with D11. If we have to wait until September to see anything even a signal meter reading from it, I will be shocked. They said September not because they won't use it before it, but they figured "OK, what is the absolute worst case scenario for D11 and not have it not work at all and that is the date we will give everyone."


Exactly.

September was first stated Thursday March 20, 2:13 am ET, within an hour of first hearing from D11. Long time ago.


----------



## jacmyoung

Not to mention DirecTV had all the HD carriage agreements in place long before D10 was alive. They are not going to sit there and wait for D11 to go live before working on the agreements.


----------



## Indiana627

I think the fact that E* uplinked 20 more MPEG4 HD temp channels yesterday may spur D* along a little bit to get D11 online.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> Not to mention DirecTV had all the HD carriage agreements in place long before D10 was alive. They are not going to sit there and wait for D11 to go live before working on the agreements.


And not to mention that D11 was expected to launch in mid-2007 but was delayed due to SeaLaunch (not DirecTV).


----------



## LameLefty

jacmyoung said:


> Not to mention DirecTV had all the HD carriage agreements in place long before D10 was alive. They are not going to sit there and wait for D11 to go live before working on the agreements.


That's probably true for national HD channels and some of the newer HD locals, but it may not have been true for all the new HD locals they will have capacity for with D11 (and D12 next fall).


----------



## man_rob

I'm sure one of the first new channels will be Encore HD, slated to go live in July. ABC Family will be there as well.


----------



## LameLefty

Indiana627 said:


> I think the fact that E* uplinked 20 more MPEG4 HD temp channels yesterday may spur D* along a little bit to get D11 online.


Good lord, with their recent leased satellite launch failure, how in the world do they have capacity without crushing the heck of them? I know they killed Voom but those were on national transponders not spotbeams.


----------



## Curtis0620

LameLefty said:


> Good lord, with their recent leased satellite launch failure, how in the world do they have capacity without crushing the heck of them? I know they killed Voom but those were on national transponders not spotbeams.


They are cramming 8-9 HD channels per transponder.


----------



## Smthkd

Word is they reaquired some transponders they had previously leased out! In other words they took back what was theirs and kicked the previous tenants to the curb!


----------



## scottchez

Competition is good. Dish Network has 20 new uplinked HD channels this week labeled TEMP. This info is public information that anyone can verify with legal equipment.

DirecTV is probably wondering if they will loose the lead now so they might want to hurry with D11.


----------



## smiddy

I smell some competitive spirit about to fly. COME ON DIRECTV 11, SHOW US YOUR STUFF!  Man it is too exciting to just sit and watch. I can only imagine everyone who is working this is going like gang busters to make IT HAPPEN! Wow!


----------



## bruinfever

We'll give them thirty days, but if we don't see anything by then we're sending in the Ogre to give them a kick in the rear end...:lol:


----------



## DCappy

*I posted this earlier, thought I would put it up again. *

A little history on DirecTV 10:

July 6, 2007 - D10 was launched.

Day 40 - Aug 17, 2007 - D10 parked, TLE#57.

Day 66 - Sept 12, 2007 - First signals from D10, 103b, tp 11.

Day 80 - Sept 26, 2007 - Satellite lit up.

I believe that all my dates are correct, if not I know some one here will correct me.

There was a problem with spot beams on D10, That might have caused a delay. I don't think we will have that problem this time.

-------------------------------------------------------------

It was 14 days between recieving signals and light up.

The locals that light up, is what I and a lot of others are interested in.

I live in the mountians, no OTA.


----------



## cartrivision

man_rob said:


> I'm sure one of the first new channels will be Encore HD, slated to go live in July. ABC Family will be there as well.


And l hope a good number of the 15 HD HBO/Cinemax channels that have been available since March 31st, but which we still don't get. In addition to those, there will be another 7 HD HBO/Cinemax channels available by July 1.


----------



## Pinion413

It's starting to feel like the end of last summer, all over again...

I personally can't wait for this bird to be up and running 100%.

And, as the Green One said.....



smiddy said:


> COME ON DIRECTV 11, SHOW US YOUR STUFF!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Indiana627 said:


> I think the fact that E* uplinked 20 more MPEG4 HD temp channels yesterday may spur D* along a little bit to get D11 online.


What channels?

Looks like the competition is about to heat up between the 2 satellite companys.


----------



## RAD

Smthkd said:


> Word is they reaquired some transponders they had previously leased out! In other words they took back what was theirs and kicked the previous tenants to the curb!


You may be thinking of the two transponders SkyAngle had on one of E*'s satellites at 61.5. They didn't kick them off IIRC but SkyAngle decided to go to a IPTV delivery system instead when the lease they had with E* ended.

I also seem to remember that SkyAngle actually had the license to a number of transponders at 61.5 and part of the deal was that E* could use the ones they didn't need but lease Skyangle the space on one of E*'s sats so they didn't need to go build/launch their own. With SkyAngle getting out of the business E* received the OK to take over all of the SkyAngle transponders at 61.5.


----------



## mbuser

Curtis0620 said:


> They are cramming 8-9 HD channels per transponder.


Are they really doing that? If so, how much does that degrade picture quality?


----------



## RAD

theratpatrol said:


> What channels?
> 
> Looks like the competition is about to heat up between the 2 satellite companys.


From what I've seen they're just mappings in their channel table, nothing is actually being shown on those channels.


----------



## Indiana627

theratpatrol said:


> What channels?
> 
> Looks like the competition is about to heat up between the 2 satellite companys.


Unknown. That's why they are labeled "temp." I've read there's no actual video on them now. Rather they are just placeholders. But it is a sign that E* is getting aggressive in the HD war again.

EDIT: What RAD said!


----------



## tuff bob

theratpatrol said:


> What channels?


TEMP1HD through TEMP20HD


----------



## Pinion413

DCappy said:


> The locals that light up, is what I and a lot of others are interested in.


I can agree with that. There are a few obvious HD channels we'll be getting off the bat, or thereabout, but I'm more interested in the possibility of HD locals as well. We can't pick up anything here OTA thanks to the hills on all sides. :grin:


----------



## loudo

scottchez said:


> Competition is good. Dish Network has 20 new uplinked HD channels this week labeled TEMP. This info is public information that anyone can verify with legal equipment.
> 
> DirecTV is probably wondering if they will loose the lead now so they might want to hurry with D11.


I doubt very much if DirecTV is worried about that. I think, at this point, their main concern will be getting it right the first time. I remember when some past HDs went on line, there was all kinds of pixelation problems. I am sure they want to avoid this if possible.


----------



## mbuser

If you don't have locals, then of course that's most important to you. Those of us who already have them and/or can get them OTA have a wish list of nationals that we'd like to see ASAP. My list is: Travel Channel, Fox News, ABC Family and the conversion of the MPEG2 channels to MPEG4, closely followed by as many HD movie channels as they can fit in. The other thing I'd like is for all the Dallas Mavericks games to be HD next NBA season, but that's a local channel and Fox Sports Southwest issue.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Are we there yet?


----------



## HoTat2

RAD said:


> You may be thinking of the two transponders SkyAngle had on one of E*'s satellites at 61.5. They didn't kick them off IIRC but SkyAngle decided to go to a IPTV delivery system instead when the lease they had with E* ended.
> 
> I also seem to remember that SkyAngle actually had the license to a number of transponders at 61.5 and part of the deal was that E* could use the ones they didn't need but lease Skyangle the space on one of E*'s sats so they didn't need to go build/launch their own. With SkyAngle getting out of the business E* received the OK to take over all of the SkyAngle transponders at 61.5.


It's actually "Sky Angel." Not "Angle"


----------



## Matt9876

MIAMI1683 said:


> Are we there yet?


If my calculations are correct they just now made it to geo-sync orbit but it will take a few burns to park it at the test slot 99.4


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> "On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for
> a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to
> conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry,
> tracking and control operations necessary to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location in accordance with the terms, conditions, and
> technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1204A1.pdf


Do we have a Rob here?   

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/23/fcc-grants-directv-30-day-test-period-for-directv-11-satellite/

That info is 4 hours old


----------



## Smthkd

mbuser said:


> Are they really doing that? If so, how much does that degrade picture quality?


Not much degredation at all. E* has a really good compression system like D*. Although they are not the same, it is very effective!


----------



## CKNAV

theratpatrol said:


> What channels?
> 
> Looks like the competition is about to heat up between the 2 satellite companys.


There isn't 20 channels uplinked. There are 20 channel tables but there is no video. E* does that a lot and it means nothing.


----------



## CKNAV

Smthkd said:


> Not much degredation at all. E* has a really good compression system like D*. Although they are not the same, it is very effective!


Sure there is. If you cram 8 or 9 channels there will be big drop in quality. E* so far has been doing 7 channels per transponder and all their channels are 1440x1080i that people like to call HD Lite. D* does 5 and they are able to keep full resolution at 1920x1080i.


----------



## Smthkd

CKNAV said:


> Sure there is. If you cram 8 or 9 channels there will be big drop in quality. E* so far has been doing 7 channels per transponder and all their channels are 1440x1080i that people like to call HD Lite. D* does 5 and they are able to keep full resolution at 1920x1080i.


 Yeah, I now there is some degredation as I already mention but despite E* lowering the resolution on there channels, overall their compression method is very effective and most HD subs cannot tell the difference due to their compression technology. Whereas D* subs seems to notice immediately changes even with the MPEG4 switch!


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Do we have a Rob here?
> 
> http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/05/23/fcc-grants-directv-30-day-test-period-for-directv-11-satellite/
> 
> That info is 4 hours old


The "other" place just picked up the news from engagethd as well.

They should just check here


----------



## CKNAV

Smthkd said:


> Yeah, I now there is some degredation as I already mention but despite E* lowering the resolution on there channels, overall their compression method is very effective and most HD subs cannot tell the difference due to their compression technology. Whereas D* subs seems to notice immediately changes even with the MPEG4 switch!


If E* is going to cram 8 or 9 channels people will notice. That kind of compression would put each channel at 4-5Mbps ABR. It would be pixelation city. Mpeg4 compression is good but not that good. I actually have both services, and while picture looks good on E*, when I compare the same channels on D*, they look sharper on D*.

Also there is no such thing as their compression method. Both D* and E* use h.264 Mpeg4 and Mpeg2. They also use Tandberg encoders and latest Divico encoders.


----------



## ATARI

CKNAV said:


> If E* is going to cram 8 or 9 channels people will notice. That kind of compression would put each channel at 4-5Mbps ABR. It would be pixelation city. Mpeg4 compression is good but not that good. I actually have both services, and while picture looks good on E*, when I compare the same channels on D*, they look sharper on D*.
> 
> Also there is no such thing as their compression method. Both D* and E* use h.264 Mpeg4 and Mpeg2. They also use Tandberg encoders and latest Divico encoders.


If this were Sladhdot, I would rate that post a +5 informative.


----------



## Dave

Now back to the facts. DirectV has made no other anouncements that they will be activating D11 before there official statement made back in March. Rememeber that summer runs until September 21, or there abouts. Has DirectV made a official statement to the contrary that they will light up D11 in June, July, or Aug. before there official announcement of Sept. 2008? Yes I would love for DirectV to light up this very minute. But it is not in the cards. Until DirectV lights up D11, I think we can all agree that Sept. is the official date andf not before.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Dave said:


> Now back to the facts. DirectV has made no other anouncements that they will be activating D11 before there official statement made back in March. Rememeber that summer runs until September 21, or there abouts. Has DirectV made a official statement to the contrary that they will light up D11 in June, July, or Aug. before there official announcement of Sept. 2008? Yes I would love for DirectV to light up this very minute. But it is not in the cards. Until DirectV lights up D11, I think we can all agree that Sept. is the official date andf not before.


 I dont agree with it all. If D11 is testing " all systems nominal" then they will go. I thought when I read the release. " Thats a careful estimation" Once its ready, I think we will start to see more local markets added. Then maybe splitting the channels from D10 too. Plus the conversion of the mpeg-2 channels. They would like to free that bandwidth up too. I think by July D11 will be online.


----------



## JeffBowser

Fuss and whine all you like, DirecTV is going to light up that bird when they are good and ready, and not a moment sooner


----------



## mcbeevee

MIAMI1683 said:


> I dont agree with it all. If D11 is testing " all systems nominal" then they will go.


+1

If D11 is ready to go, I don't see Directv letting it sit idle for 2 months just because of a date issued in a press release.


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> Now back to the facts. DirectV has made no other anouncements that they will be activating D11 before there official statement made back in March. Rememeber that summer runs until September 21, or there abouts. Has DirectV made a official statement to the contrary that they will light up D11 in June, July, or Aug. before there official announcement of Sept. 2008? Yes I would love for DirectV to light up this very minute. But it is not in the cards. Until DirectV lights up D11, I think we can all agree that Sept. is the official date andf not before.


The word "facts" is relative.

Yep, the officially announced date is September. Was in an official DirecTV press release on March 20th at 2:13am, minutes after launch.

Yep, during the recent analyst call, the CEO said "We recently launched our newest satellite, which is expected to deploy in the third quarter for customers and will enable us to continue to drive forward and HD leadership".

All major U.S. corporations make public statements that are very carefully worded. Some may describe it as "worst case scenarios", others may call it "facts".

Anything better then the announced date, then gets announced as "great news", "the team beat the date", "major progress was made" ...

D11 will go "live" when it's ready.

My money is strongly on sooner rather then later.


----------



## petergaryr

Beating its own estimate by a month or two wouldn't be such a bad thing in terms of publicity either


----------



## Dr_J

I wonder if there will be a transponder vigil here like with D10.


----------



## Sixto

One other point ...

It's not like we're sitting out here with no knowledge, just waiting for someone to ship a new product, with no clue.

We get TLE's every day or so, we have access to FCC public filings. We have some very good information.

If DirecTV had problems with the move to geostationary then the filing today would have been delayed. We saw it move day-by-day exactly as planned. We all predicted this weekend a month ago. What if something went wrong? Yep, then using September would have been a good announcement.

Also, they only asked for 30 days. Can something go wrong. Yep. And then they'll get an extention. And September would still be the date. If not, they move to 99.225 in June and off to the races they go.

So far everything has been great and we're in great shape. And "3rd quarter" may very well be Wednesday, July 2nd, at 6am!

As long as all testing goes well ...


----------



## hdthebest

So let me get this straight we can see new HD channels and conversion of MPEG2 to MPEG4 as early as July?


----------



## Matt9876

Dr_J said:


> I wonder if there will be a transponder vigil here like with D10.


Remember the night the first two test channels were on with D10 ??


----------



## Sixto

A "real" TLE after that 12:00:00 TLE ... soon ...



Code:


Past 5 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 11:29pm[/B] - 0.41 days at Day#65.25 at 4.67km/hour
Past 18 TLE Projection: [B]5/23/08 10:14pm[/B] - 0.36 days at Day#65.20 at 5.35km/hour

DirecTV-11(TLE83)
1 32729U 08013A   08144.56857580 -.00000101  00000-0  00000+0 0   832
2 32729 000.0550 283.8000 0017244 272.1749 151.0403 01.00182586   764

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-23-2008 13:38:44[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	76
Inclination		0.055
RA of A. Node		283.800
Eccentricity		0.0017244
Argument of Perigee	272.175
Revs per day		1.00182586
Period			23h 57m 22s (1437.37 min)
Semi-major axis		42 190 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 739 x 35 884 km[/B]
Element number / age	83 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) [B]35,739 x 35,884 km[/B] (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) 35,600 x 36,052 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35,441 x 36,299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)
TLE#79 (05-21-2008 09:39:31) 35,496 x 36,217 km (+ 0.0 hours, at 62.7 days, +  0km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Smthkd

CKNAV said:


> If E* is going to cram 8 or 9 channels people will notice. That kind of compression would put each channel at 4-5Mbps ABR. It would be pixelation city. Mpeg4 compression is good but not that good. I actually have both services, and while picture looks good on E*, when I compare the same channels on D*, they look sharper on D*.
> 
> Also there is no such thing as their compression method. Both D* and E* use h.264 Mpeg4 and Mpeg2. They also use Tandberg encoders and latest Divico encoders.


Well I guess you need to be educated a little more!

Yes they both use Tandberg but yet still to "different" types of video delivery methods:

Directv got Tandberg EN5990 encoders. But Directv is also using Harmonic
DiviCom Electra 7000 HD MPEG 4 AVC (H.264) encoders, which has a different variable compression technology than the ones DishNetwork is using. Dish is using EN8090 and EN8000 encoders which are MPEG4 equipment but are paired and used for their codecs of video which is encoded differently than Directv (The reason why Dish receivers cannot get Directv channels). The encoders Dish received were slightly better than what D* got. Dish encoders can handle up to 8 Full Res. HD channels per transponders whereas Directv's encoders can only handle up to 6 Full Res. HD per transponder.

BTW, H.264 is just another way to say MPEG4-10/AVC nothing more.


----------



## petergaryr

Dr_J said:


> I wonder if there will be a transponder vigil here like with D10.


I'll be there!


----------



## DodgerKing

Smthkd said:


> Well I guess you need to be educated a little more!
> 
> Yes they both use Tandberg but yet still to "different" types of video delivery methods:
> 
> Directv got Tandberg EN5990 encoders. But Directv is also using Harmonic
> DiviCom Electra 7000 HD MPEG 4 AVC (H.264) encoders, which has a different variable compression technology than the ones DishNetwork is using. Dish is using EN8090 and EN8000 encoders which are MPEG4 equipment but are paired and used for their codecs of video which is encoded differently than Directv (The reason why Dish receivers cannot get Directv channels). The encoders Dish received were slightly better than what D* got. Dish encoders can handle up to 8 Full Res. HD channels per transponders whereas Directv's encoders can only handle up to 6 Full Res. HD per transponder.
> 
> BTW, H.264 is just another way to say MPEG4-10/AVC nothing more.


If Direct can use up to 6 per transponder, then why are they only using about 4 to 5 per transponder? They can put up a lot more HD if they utilized each transponders full potential (at least 5 per).


----------



## bwaldron

Matt9876 said:


> Remember the night the first two test channels were on with D10 ??


Indeed I do.


----------



## Smthkd

DodgerKing said:


> If Direct can use up to 6 per transponder, then why are they only using about 4 to 5 per transponder? They can put up a lot more HD if they utilized each transponders full potential (at least 5 per).


They can. Estimates are that they can put up another 20 HD channels if they want. But speculation is they are waiting on the successful testing of D11 before they completely fill up D10. Which is smart on their part if true. But to be on the safe side is also not wise to use all your current space at one time but use it sparingly.


----------



## Jeremy W

Smthkd said:


> Dish is using EN8090 and EN8000 encoders which are MPEG4 equipment but are paired and used for their codecs of video which is encoded differently than Directv (The reason why Dish receivers cannot get Directv channels).


You're spewing so much techno-babble, and you're barely making any sense. The codec they use is not the reason a Dish receiver can't get DirecTV channels and vice versa. There are many differences that cause this, but Dish and DirecTV use the same codec.


----------



## bwaldron

Jeremy W said:


> The codec they use is not the reason a Dish receiver can't get DirecTV channels and vice versa.


Yeah, there's that little issue of encryption scheme, for one thing


----------



## LameLefty

bwaldron said:


> Yeah, there's that little issue of encryption scheme, for one thing


Beat me to that one . . .


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Beat me to that one . . .


it's not the encryption scheme or receivers from either service would be able to get the unencrypted channels of the other service


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> it's not the encryption scheme or receivers from either service would be able to get the unencrypted channels of the other service


Those "unencrypted" channels still require an access card in the receiver to view.


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> it's not the encryption scheme or receivers from either service would be able to get the unencrypted channels of the other service


Encryption/CA is one piece of the puzzle. There is also modulation and encoding of the signal.


----------



## DCappy

Day 64.8, TLE#83, 1:38:45 since last TLE (using past 38 TLE average).

Perigee decreased 9km and has 47km to go.
Apogee decreased 4km and has 98km to go.

Gaining at an average of 143.32km per day or 6.0km per hour.

0.5 more days or Saturday, May 24, 1:41AM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up. 

Perigee = 35,739km x Apogee = 35,884km , Target 35786km.

Apogee is a little high. However, we are in the realm of small adjustments.

Quirky TLEs, (1:38:45 since last TLE)??? 

I have taken note of some posts here that state that DirecTV cannot light up D11 before September because of a CYA press release and/or a reference to the “3rd Quarter” in a news conference, another CYA statement.

I live in the real world. If it very came to light that the management of DirecTV left a new satellite floating around in space for two months because of a press release. The shareholders would have them replaced due to incompetence.

Some people like being negative, I like to look on the bright side. Things go wrong, but you work thru it. D10 had some problems, now I’m watching a beautiful HD picture coming from D10. D11 was suppose to launch in the fall of last year. I believe that I’ll be watching HD from D11 and hopefully get my locals in HD in the next two to four weeks.


----------



## smiddy

This is so exciting! Who ever sees the first signs of DirecTV 11 I hope you are kind enough to post it...PLEASE!


----------



## DodgerKing

Excel graphs including 82 and 83


----------



## yuppers519

smiddy said:


> This is so exciting! Who ever sees the first signs of DirecTV 11 I hope you are kind enough to post it...PLEASE!


What shall we be looking for? Right now i Have 101,110,119,99s,103s,103c. What number is D11?


----------



## davemayo

yuppers519 said:


> What shall we be looking for? Right now i Have 101,110,119,99s,103s,103c. What number is D11?


99(c)


----------



## CKNAV

Smthkd said:


> Well I guess you need to be educated a little more!
> 
> Yes they both use Tandberg but yet still to "different" types of video delivery methods:
> 
> Directv got Tandberg EN5990 encoders. But Directv is also using Harmonic
> DiviCom Electra 7000 HD MPEG 4 AVC (H.264) encoders, which has a different variable compression technology than the ones DishNetwork is using. Dish is using EN8090 and EN8000 encoders which are MPEG4 equipment but are paired and used for their codecs of video which is encoded differently than Directv (The reason why Dish receivers cannot get Directv channels). The encoders Dish received were slightly better than what D* got. Dish encoders can handle up to 8 Full Res. HD channels per transponders whereas Directv's encoders can only handle up to 6 Full Res. HD per transponder.
> 
> BTW, H.264 is just another way to say MPEG4-10/AVC nothing more.


I am not sure what you are trying to say. Harmonic encoders are the best. Tandberg are considered the worst. Harris does not make AVC encoders yet but they used to be rated number 2. Mpeg4/AVC is Mpeg4/AVC. BTW, both D* and E* use both. Tandberg was used first because thatey were the first with broadcast AVC encoders. Once Harmonic came out everybody started getting those as Tandberg is not considered very good.

8 full res channels per transponder is bs stated by Tandberg. If they do that the channels will be unwatchable due to blocking. E* does 7 channels per transponder at 1440x1080i to limit pixelation and it stil does not work as the same channels on D* have a lot less blocking and they are at full resolution.

The reason E* receivers can't get Mpeg4 D* signal is because they do not receive Ka-band not because some encoders. Mpeg2 can't be received because they use DSS standard. Also encryption used by E* is totally different than what D* uses.


----------



## cartrivision

Matt9876 said:


> If my calculations are correct they just now made it to geo-sync orbit but it will take a few burns to park it at the test slot 99.4


You calculations are off. It's very close, but not quite geosynchronous yet. As of the latest TLE, it's still drifting west at about 0.3 degrees per day and both the apogee and perigee need adjustment.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Those "unencrypted" channels still require an access card in the receiver to view.


not true, certainly with my FTA receiver I can see a couple of the unencrypted Dish channels. stick to rocket science :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> not true, certainly with my FTA receiver I can see a couple of the unencrypted Dish channels. stick to rocket science :lol:


He was talking about DirecTV. DirecTV uses DSS for their Ku channels, good luck finding an "FTA" DSS receiver.


----------



## Newshawk

bruinfever said:


> Maybe its just me but I'm a little disheartened by the 30 day testing slot. I was under the assumption that because this was their 2nd KA satellite the testing would be shorter than D10....:nono:


It's from the Montgomery Scott School of Engineering... always overestimate the time needed to achieve your goal. It makes you look like a miracle worker when you bring it in early.


----------



## P Smith

Yeah, add to that 'scientific' calculation of spending time for future project - after done with all numbers multiply by pi (x3.14) and you'll be fine !


----------



## ziltomil

Jeremy W said:


> He was talking about DirecTV. DirecTV uses DSS for their Ku channels, good luck finding an "FTA" DSS receiver.


They use DSS with MPEG-2, and DVB-S2 with MPEG-4.


----------



## MrDad0330

Are we there, nyo puts D11 at 99.38. This is an exciting weekend. Mars lander at 7ish pm on Sunday and our beloved D11 about parked..maybe see some signs of life from a transponder Sunday too.. Mars and D11 woohoo


----------



## ddobson

Newshawk said:


> It's from the Montgomery Scott School of Engineering... always overestimate the time needed to achieve your goal. It makes you look like a miracle worker when you bring it in early.


Kirk: If I only had phasers

Scotty: I've got one bank fully recharged Captain....

Kirk: Scotty, you just earned your pay for the week.


----------



## tuff bob

Jeremy W said:


> He was talking about DirecTV. DirecTV uses DSS for their Ku channels, good luck finding an "FTA" DSS receiver.


that's the point. its not the encryption scheme that prevents receivers interoperating, because receivers from one service cannot display unencrypted channels from the other.


----------



## ddobson

Well since we got on the subject of satellite Hijacking.. Anyone remember these incidents? These are from the 80's. I did not witness any of these personally but they suspect the same guy of breaking into some radio stations and I did hear one of those incidents.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom_pirating_incident


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MrDad0330 said:


> Are we there, nyo puts D11 at 99.38. This is an exciting weekend. Mars lander at 7ish pm on Sunday and our beloved D11 about parked..maybe see some signs of life from a transponder Sunday too.. Mars and D11 woohoo


Supposedly it is parked very near its final location, with testing commencing today. Don't look for transponder additions until at least the first 30 day system tests are done.


----------



## loudo

ddobson said:


> Well since we got on the subject of satellite Hijacking.. Anyone remember these incidents? These are from the 80's. I did not witness any of these personally but they suspect the same guy of breaking into some radio stations and I did hear one of those incidents.....
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Headroom_pirating_incident


The best hijacking of all times was Captain Midnight's take over of HBO: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Midnight_(HBO)


----------



## smiddy

DirecTV 11, show us your transponders, please.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> DirecTV 11, show us your transponders, please.


Patience grasshopper (*they're green too*)...... :lol:


----------



## HoTat2

tuff bob said:


> that's the point. its not the encryption scheme that prevents receivers interoperating, because receivers from one service cannot display unencrypted channels from the other.


Hey, thanks for this info guys:

I've been trying to sort these formats out for a while now.

So to sum up, DirecTV uses "DSS" for its Ku band MPEG-2 signals, which is a proprietary transmission format.

And H.264/MPEG-4 AVC with DVB-S2 for its HD (and newer SD LiL) signals, on the Ka band which is a public standard I assume?

(Note: Although there is nothing which technically prevents using MPEG-4 AVC on Ku band as well. As with DirecTV's current temporary transmission for HD DNS west feeds on 101 and 119 for MDUs which have not yet upgraded to Ka reception capabilities).

And EchoStar ("dish network") uses the DVB-S format for its SD MPEG-2 signals on Ku band.

Then the same H.264/MPEG-4 AVC with DVB-S2 for their HD signals on Ku band as well?

Boy &#8230;I'm getting a headache from all this name soup. Time for the morning coffee. :coffee


----------



## Jeremy W

HoTat2 said:


> Boy &#8230;I'm getting a headache from all this name soup. Time for the morning coffee. :coffee


You got it all straight, though.


----------



## Juppers

HoTat2 said:


> Hey, thanks for this info guys:
> 
> I've been trying to sort these formats out for a while now.
> 
> So to sum up, DirecTV uses "DSS" for its Ku band MPEG-2 signals, which is a proprietary transmission format.
> 
> And H.264/MPEG-4 AVC with DVB-S2 for its HD (and newer SD LiL) signals, on the Ka band which is a public standard I assume?
> 
> (Note: Although there is nothing which technically prevents using MPEG-4 AVC on Ku band as well. As with DirecTV's current temporary transmission for HD DNS west feeds on 101 and 119 for MDUs which have not yet upgraded to Ka reception capabilities).
> 
> And EchoStar ("dish network") uses the DVB-S format for its SD MPEG-2 signals on Ku band.
> 
> Then the same H.264/MPEG-4 AVC with DVB-S2 for their HD signals on Ku band as well?
> 
> Boy &#8230;I'm getting a headache from all this name soup. Time for the morning coffee. :coffee


Close. Echostar doesn't use DVB-S2 though. They use 8psk Turbo FEC, which isn't a standard at all, for their MPEG-4 transmissions. Most of that is in the DVB-S2 standard except for the turbo FEC.


----------



## Jeremy W

ziltomil said:


> They use DSS with MPEG-2, and DVB-S2 with MPEG-4.


I believe that's inaccurate. IIRC, the LA HD DNS channels, which are MPEG4 Ku, are DSS.


----------



## tuff bob

HoTat2 said:


> So to sum up, DirecTV uses "DSS" for its Ku band MPEG-2 signals, which is a proprietary transmission format.


its "minorly" proprietary, in that it is based on DVB-S but has slightly different system information data.

While functionally similar in DVB-S - MPEG 2 video, MPEG-1 Layer II or AC3 audio, QPSK modulation, and identical error correction (Reed-Solomon coding and Viterbi forward error correction. However, the transport stream and information tables are entirely different from those of DVB.


----------



## sat2631

TLE #84 Perigee +8 km, Apogee -80 km



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08145.40248888 -.00000119  00000-0  00000+0 0   841
2 32729 000.0518 285.4235 0006832 266.8426 095.5125 01.00311078   773

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-24 09:39:35
Orbit # at Epoch	77
Inclination	0.052
RA of A. Node	285.423
Eccentricity	0.0006832
Argument of Perigee	266.843
Revs per day	1.00311078
Period	23h 55m 32s (1435.53 min)
Semi-major axis	42 154 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 747 x 35 804 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	95.512
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	84 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Last Month Launches

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	99.4795° W
Lat	0.0658° N
Alt (km)	35 799.900
Azm	149.4°
Elv	47.5°
RA	03h 01m 22s
Decl	-5° 11' 27"
Range (km)	37 249.453
RRt (km/s)	-0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.073
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	210.6° (149)
TA	210.6°
Orbit #	77
Mag (illum)	? (6%)
Constellation	Eri


----------



## spectrumsp

I think we're close to a touchdown! (Scoring that is, not a landing!):lol:


----------



## DCappy

Day 65.7, TLE#84, 20:00:50 since last TLE (using past 39 TLE average).

Perigee increased 8km and has 39km to go.
Apogee decreased 80km and has 18km to go.

0.2 more days or Saturday, May 24, 2:29PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up. 

Perigee = 35,747km x Apogee = 35,804km , Target 35786km.

Another small tweak or two and the testing can begin. 

:welcome_s !pride :icon_kiff :goodjob: :dance: :gott: :welcome: :dance07: :icon_da: :dance01: :blowout:


----------



## curt8403

DCappy said:


> Day 65.7, TLE#84, 20:00:50 since last TLE (using past 39 TLE average).
> 
> Perigee increased 8km and has 39km to go.
> Apogee decreased 80km and has 18km to go.
> 
> 0.2 more days or Saturday, May 24, 2:29PM to parking it. Another 2 to 4 weeks before they light it up.
> 
> Perigee = 35,747km x Apogee = 35,804km , Target 35786km.
> 
> Another small tweak or two and the testing can begin.
> 
> :welcome_s !pride :icon_kiff :goodjob: :dance: :gott: :welcome: :dance07: :icon_da: :dance01: :blowout:


2:29, what time zone?


----------



## DCappy

curt8403 said:


> 2:29, what time zone?


Based on Date/Time stamp.


----------



## curt8403

DCappy said:


> Based on Date/Time stamp.


guess it does not matter, I will be here from 2:00 Eastern til after 2:00 Pacific (having fun)


----------



## DCappy

curt8403 said:


> guess it does not matter, I will be here from 2:00 Eastern til after 2:00 Pacific (having fun)


It's only a WAG using a spreadsheet.


----------



## dms1

DCappy said:


> It's only a WAG using a spreadsheet.


At this point it is impossible to predict exactly when GSO will be reached. The change in apogee and perigee isn't a continuous event. There will be a number of burns carefully planned so that the phasing is correct - in other words making sure that the final longitude is correct. Without direct access to Boeing's plans all we can say now is "soon".


----------



## HoTat2

sat2631 said:


> TLE #84 Perigee +8 km, Apogee -80 km
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08145.40248888 -.00000119  00000-0  00000+0 0   841
> 2 32729 000.0518 285.4235 0006832 266.8426 095.5125 01.00311078   773
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 11
> NORAD #	32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-24 09:39:35
> Orbit # at Epoch	77
> Inclination	0.052
> RA of A. Node	285.423
> Eccentricity	0.0006832
> Argument of Perige 266.843
> *Revs per day	1.00311078*
> *Period	23h 55m 32s (1435.53 min)*
> Semi-major axis	42 154 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 747 x 35 804 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	95.512
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	84 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	Last Month Launches
> 
> 1DIRECTV 11
> Lon	99.4795° W
> Lat	0.0658° N
> Alt (km)	35 799.900
> Azm	149.4°
> Elv	47.5°
> RA	03h 01m 22s
> Decl	-5° 11' 27"
> Range (km)	37 249.453
> RRt (km/s)	-0.001
> Vel (km/s)	3.073
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase) 210.6° (149)
> TA 210.6°
> Orbit # 77
> Mag (illum)? (6%)
> Constellation Eri


If the revolutions per day of "1.00311078" is correct here. Shouldn't the period read maybe "23h 54m 32s" (1434.53 min.) on this TLE? Giving D11 a slightly eastward drift now?


----------



## sat2631

24 hr/day * 60 min/hr / 1.00311078 revs/day = 1435.534 min


----------



## dms1

HoTat2 said:


> If the revolutions per day of "1.00311078" is correct here. Shouldn't the period read maybe "23h 54m 32s" (1434.53 min.) on this TLE? Giving D11 a slightly eastward drift now?


No - I make 1.00311078 revs per day to correspond to a period of 23h 55 32.062s - exactly what the report says.

The correct period for GSO is 23h 56m 04s.


----------



## HoTat2

dms1 said:


> No - I make 1.00311078 revs per day to correspond to a period of 23h 55 32.062s - exactly what the report says.
> 
> The correct period for GSO is 23h 56m 04s.


OK;

I got it. But thats still a slighty eastward drift now isn't it?


----------



## halmil9

OK, now that the SAT is up when will Directv begin broadcasting HD local channels in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, VA. area? DISH is already broadcasting all local channels in HD as of May 1, 2008


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

halmil9 said:


> OK, now that the SAT is up when will Directv begin broadcasting HD local channels in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, VA. area? DISH is already broadcasting all local channels in HD as of May 1, 2008


Welcome to DBSTalk

D11 is not in place yet and turned on. It should be parked very soon and the testing will begin. It will probably be at least July before turned on.

As for when Virginia Beach will get there HD locals I am not sure if DIRECTV has given a date. Hopefully someone else will info on this for you.


----------



## koolbrz2

halmil9 said:


> OK, now that the SAT is up when will Directv begin broadcasting HD local channels in the Virginia Beach, Norfolk, VA. area? DISH is already broadcasting all local channels in HD as of May 1, 2008


Is there a way of finding out the answer to this ???


----------



## litzdog911

koolbrz2 said:


> Is there a way of finding out the answer to this ???


Not really. No specific local HD markets have been announced yet.


----------



## seern

Well I sure hope that D* decides to give the 2 largest DMA's in Virginia their locals in HD, Norfolk at 42 and Richmond at 59. After all this time I would hate to move over to Dish so I can get them. OTA does not work well for where I am in relation to the station's towers and I don't really want to pay for the install of an outside antenna.


----------



## DodgerKing

3 latest Excel graphs showing the movement over the last few TLE readings.


----------



## dduitsman

Thanks DodgerKing. I like those graphs.

dd


----------



## Sixto

In and out all weekend ... but did update post#2 with the latest ...

No need for any more projections so removed from header ...

They'll tweak the orbit a little and start the testing ...

Wish everyone a super Memorial Day weekend ...

For all intents and purposes, D11 is where it needs to be, after a 2 month journey, and now we have a few weeks of testing ...

Hopefully, more HD coming our way by the next Holiday weekend ... be some fireworks and HD!


Code:


[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#84 (05-24-2008 09:39:35) 35 747 x 35 804 km (+20.0 hours, at 65.7 days, +  8km)
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) 35,739 x 35,884 km (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) 35,600 x 36,052 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)
TLE#80 (05-22-2008 10:28:36) 35,441 x 36,299 km (+24.8 hours, at 63.7 days, - 55km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## litzdog911

Sixto has announced *IT"S ARRIVED*. HOORAY!!!


----------



## Athlon646464

!pride !pride !pride :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: !pride !pride !pride


----------



## curt8403

Athlon646464 said:


> !pride !pride !pride :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: !pride !pride !pride


and the smiley battle begins.


----------



## steveken

Please, no smiley battles! lol


----------



## tuff bob

steveken said:


> Please, no smiley battles! lol


----------



## reweiss

I'm really looking forward to 2 weeks to 3 months of "are the new channels here yet?"

   :lol:  :sure: :grin:   :icon_an: :ringo: :dance:


----------



## curt8403

tuff bob said:


>


:eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2: :nono2: :eek2:


----------



## Sixto

Perfect ...








The drift is also now down to within a few tenths of a degree.


----------



## DodgerKing

latest info shows close to stable altitude (only moving a few one hundredths of a km every few seconds) at 35748 km

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> latest info shows close to stable altitude (only moving a few one hundredths of a km every few seconds) at 35748 km
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


Yep, they just need to tweak the perigee up 39km and the apogee down 18km. It's already right at ~99.4°.

Just orbital fine tuning going on now.

The next 7-14 days will be critical. The national transponders will be somewhat easier to test. The spots need to be tested and tuned individually. Hopefully all goes well. Each bad test (if any) then adds days/weeks to the process ...

Once we see missing TLE's for a few days and the sudden arrival at 99.225° then we'll know she's almost ready. A day later we should see readings on the signal strength meter, and a week or two later should see channels.


----------



## Ed Campbell

I even have neighbors who are waiting.

Two households are dropping DISH and crossing over to D* - already completed their existing commitments and are ready to roll.


----------



## inkahauts

Ok, so now that it appears that they have permission to test this baby out at a different location than the final location, do you think we will see any signals from it, since the location is very close to its final spot, or will we be in the dark until they are done testing and move it to its final home?


----------



## bakers12

As I understand it, the FCC won't let them send anything we can receive unless D11 is within .05 degree of where it should be. D11 can send stuff that DirecTV and Boeing can receive.


----------



## mgtr

But if I had a separate dish for the purpose, I could aim it at the correct point, and receive the testing info? Or not?


----------



## tuff bob

mgtr said:


> But if I had a separate dish for the purpose, I could aim it at the correct point, and receive the testing info? Or not?


the difference between 99.2 and 99.4 wont make any difference on a slimline


----------



## Athlon646464

tuff bob said:


> the difference between 99.2 and 99.4 wont make any difference on a slimline


To quote Chris Matthews: "I feel a thrill going up my leg!"

:hurah:


----------



## sticketfan

do we know for sure if all of the channels like hdnet and espn2 and espn for example that are still on the old hd sats are going to the new sat


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

sticketfan said:


> do we know for sure if all of the channels like hdnet and espn2 and espn for example that are still on the old hd sats are going to the new sat


Yes they will be moved to the new SAT. The only question is how long after it is turned on. IMO I don't think it will be very long.


----------



## tuff bob

sticketfan said:


> do we know for sure if all of the channels like hdnet and espn2 and espn for example that are still on the old hd sats are going to the new sat


no we don't. there is certainly the LA HD DNS issue that might have slowed down the transition of those channels over to MPEG4 HD from D11.


----------



## lowmazda

Unless there was something in the latest CE that enabled viewing of 99(c), you're not going to see signals on your receiver until that is updated.


----------



## carl6

lowmazda said:


> Unless there was something in the latest CE that enabled viewing of 99(c), you're not going to see signals on your receiver until that is updated.


I don't know if it will require a firmware update, or more likely just an update to the guide data to tell our receivers to look at the new transponders. It could be done either way.

Carl


----------



## LameLefty

lowmazda said:


> Unless there was something in the latest CE that enabled viewing of 99(c), you're not going to see signals on your receiver until that is updated.


It won't require a software update. We didn't need an update to suddenly see the new CONUS beams from 99 when D10 went live.


----------



## bwaldron

Michael D'Angelo;1615972 said:


> Yes they will be moved to the new SAT. The only question is how long after it is turned on. IMO I don't think it will be very long.


Me either. The fact that they'll be providing dishes that don't look at 110 or 119 is a big clue,


----------



## steveken

Heh, as many times as thats been said in this forum, you would think everyone would know by now. Why would it take a software update just to enable a satellite? Thats just not really very practical. 

For one, it would take a lot of work and most people wouldn't see it for a while because of how slowly receivers can take their updates and all. 

And for two, even the tiniest, most innocent change can royally screw up stuff, so I can see them not really wanting to push out a national release just to update it for one satellite if they can help it.


----------



## machavez00

LameLefty said:


> It won't require a software update. We didn't need an update to suddenly see the new CONUS beams from 99 when D10 went live.


I believe that is 103.


----------



## Sixto

*We've arrived* ... just another slight tweak to the apogee to go ...



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE85)
1 32729U 08013A   08146.52581086 -.00000113  00000-0  00000+0 0   850
2 32729 000.0506 285.6583 0000649 046.3194 001.3840 01.00264061   780

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-25-2008 12:37:10[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	78
Inclination		0.051
RA of A. Node		285.658
Eccentricity		0.0000649
Argument of Perigee	46.319
Revs per day		1.00264061
Period			23h 56m 12s (1436.20 min)
Semi-major axis		42 167 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 786 x 35 792 km[/B]
Element number / age	85 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#85 (05-25-2008 12:37:10) [B]35 786 x 35 792 km[/B] (+27.0 hours, at 66.8 days, + 39km)
TLE#84 (05-24-2008 09:39:35) 35 747 x 35 804 km (+20.0 hours, at 65.7 days, +  8km)
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) 35,739 x 35,884 km (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)
TLE#81 (05-22-2008 11:46:38) 35,600 x 36,052 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 63.8 days, +159km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## crashHD

Sixto said:


> *We're arrived* ... just another slight tweak to the apogee to go ...










Woohoo!


----------



## Sixto

Also, 99.4036° W at the moment.

As the FCC Filing stated, testing can begin today.

We're golden!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

sticketfan said:


> do we know for sure if all of the channels like hdnet and espn2 and espn for example that are still on the old hd sats are going to the new sat


Any guesses as to where HDNET and HDNET movies will move to, or do you think they will stay on 78 and 79? Seems like the others have been remapped already.


----------



## LameLefty

machavez00 said:


> I believe that is 103.


Correct of course; brain-flub on my end.


----------



## tuff bob

Is it time to use the sonora to flip 99 and 103?


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> I don't know if it will require a firmware update, or more likely just an update to the guide data to tell our receivers to look at the new transponders. It could be done either way.
> 
> Carl


For sure sats and tpns define in System Table, not in 'guide data', and I bet for price of new HR2x - new software [firmware] will be spooled before you'll see new sat on your DVR/receiver's screens.


----------



## Indiana627

P Smith said:


> For sure sats and tpns define in System Table, not in 'guide data', and I bet for price of new HR2x - new software [firmware] will be spooled before you'll see new sat on your DVR/receiver's screens.


As has been stated many times, no new software was needed when we started seeing D10 at 103° last fall, so I doubt new software will be needed to see D11 at 99° now.


----------



## DodgerKing

Latest excel graph showing the last 4 TLE #'s.


----------



## Sixto

have reworded post#2 (for any newcomers) now that we're at geostationary ...

be a good time to break out the flux capacitor for spectrum analysis ... 

fairly sure test channels in engineering mode can be seen with the proper equipment.


----------



## ziltomil

Phoenix is now 2hours and 31minutes from mars at 31070km.


----------



## inkahauts

P Smith said:


> For sure sats and tpns define in System Table, not in 'guide data', and I bet for price of new HR2x - new software [firmware] will be spooled before you'll see new sat on your DVR/receiver's screens.


We do not need knew firmware to see new sats. The firmware we have will always see signals of sats that it is told it should be able to see by data being streamed from one of the sats.


----------



## steveken

ziltomil said:


> Phoenix is now 2hours and 31minutes from mars at 31070km.


huh????


----------



## steveken

Code:


1DirecTV-11(TLE85)
Lon	[B]99.4181° W[/B]
Lat	0.0344° S
Alt (km)	35 790.970
Azm	192.4°
Elv	48.9°
RA	09h 37m 47s
Decl	-5° 36' 32"
Range (km)	37 147.667
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	[B]3.074[/B]
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	173.5° (123)
TA	173.5°
Orbit #	78
Mag (illum)	? (44%)
Constellation	Sex
2Sun
Azm	287.3°
Elv	12.4°
RA	04h 13m 00s
Decl	21° 11' 35"
Lon	178.3137° E
Lat	21.1544° N
Range (km)	151 552 483
Constellation	Tau
3Moon
Azm	51.7°
Elv	-66.8°
RA	20h 53m 12s
Decl	-18° 52' 21"
Lon	68.3792° E
Lat	18.6109° S
Range (km)	401 305
Illum	67%
Phase	Last quarter
Constellation	Cap
[B][/B]

Not quite sitting still yet.


----------



## Lord Vader

steveken said:


> huh????


It's landed.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> have reworded post#2 (for any newcomers) now that we're at geostationary ...
> 
> be a good time to break out the flux capacitor for spectrum analysis ...
> 
> fairly sure test channels in engineering mode can be seen with the proper equipment.


Actually, it's not quite geostationary yet. It's slightly west of it's test slot and still slowly drifting west.... at about one degree of westward drift every 30 days. It will take a couple more small tweaks to get it geostationary at the test slot, but it's so close to geostationary now that they probably can start the transponder testing.


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> Actually, it's not quite geostationary yet. It's slightly west of it's test slot and still slowly drifting west.... at about one degree of westward drift every 30 days. It will take a couple more small tweaks to get it geostationary at the test slot, but it's so close to geostationary now that they probably can start the transponder testing.


agree.

the apogee is only off by 6km. may be fixed already.

btw, i did carefully word the post to mention the 6km difference.

will update once geo final final.


----------



## P Smith

Nothing new on a screen of spectrum analyzer.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Nothing new on a screen of spectrum analyzer.


that spectrum analyzer will be busy over the next few weeks ...


----------



## Ed Campbell

Great coverage from Pasadena and Tucson of the Phoenix landing. At least watching scientists jumping up and down along with reasoned explanations. 

Science Channel HD courtesy of D*...

Maybe we'll see them carry the launch of D12 in HD?


----------



## Sixto

DCappy said:


> *New guess is 26 more days or Saturday, May 24*. That's up from the last estimate of Wednesday, May 20.


That post is from 4/29/2008.

Not bad for a retired welder!


----------



## prospect60

Ed Campbell said:


> Great coverage from Pasadena and Tuscon of the Phoenix landing. At least watching scientists jumping up and down along with reasoned explanations.
> 
> Science Channel HD courtesy of D*...
> 
> Maybe we'll see them carry the launch of D12 in HD?


Funny to see the 180 IQ bunch acting like High Schoolers at Homecoming. I thought it was superb TV. Nerds Rule indeed.


----------



## DCappy

Sixto said:


> That post is from 4/29/2008.
> 
> Not bad for a retired welder!


It was your data that I used. Team work.

Just trying to give the working people an idea where it was and when it would get there.


----------



## DChristmann

Around my house, I've got a lot of trees, so reception from all five satellites is a bit difficult.

I could get 99, 101, and 103 perfectly, but I just had marginal reception of 110 and 119. I had the tree service come out and take off a few offending limbs from one tree, and today, I moved the dish around to see where I got the best signal. On the third try, I found a location where I got 99, 101, 103, and 119 perfectly, but 110 not at all.

I was thinking about enlisting professional help to see if they could find an even better spot for the dish, but I don't really feel like paying for someone to come out just to get me ESPN HD and TNT HD, especially if it seems likely that they'll end up on 99 or 103 Real Soon Now.

So this is really great news!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Ed Campbell said:


> Great coverage from Pasadena and Tuscon of the Phoenix landing. At least watching scientists jumping up and down along with reasoned explanations.
> 
> Science Channel HD courtesy of D*...
> 
> Maybe we'll see them carry the launch of D12 in HD?





prospect60 said:


> Funny to see the 180 IQ bunch acting like High Schoolers at Homecoming. I thought it was superb TV. Nerds Rule indeed.


Watched all of this too.....quite an achievement....gives us an appreciation for just how complex all this stuff is (that we often seem to take for granted).


----------



## smiddy

Ah man, I was hoping to see someone's post that they had telemetry on DirecTV - 11...COME ON D11, SHOW US YOUR STUFF!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Ah man, I was hoping to see someone's post that they had telemetry on DirecTV - 11...COME ON D11, SHOW US YOUR STUFF!


Dreamin......everyone reading this thread knows you won't see anything for weeks yet...


----------



## Hdhead

Guess we are there, all is quite. Everyone must be off keeping up with Phienox. 
May the Marstian summer be warm and full of global warming. Want to crack that ice and find those little Marstian microebes.


----------



## PoitNarf

Hdhead said:


> Guess we are there, all is quite. Everyone must be off keeping up with Phienox.
> May the Marstian summer be warm and full of global warming. Want to crack that ice and find those little Marstian microebes.


It's Martian, not "Marstian"  It's also microbes, not "microebes" and quiet, not quite. Are people trying to fill the spelling error void that Earl left behind? :lol:


----------



## twaller

And it's quiet not "quite".


----------



## curt8403

twaller said:


> And it's quiet not "quite".


and Phoenix.

And I do not refer to the Mars probe in my signature


----------



## bluemoon737

twaller said:


> And it's quiet not "quite".


You guys are assuming he spelled it incorrectly...it's also possible he just left out a word...he could have meant to say it's quite quiet. :lol:


----------



## GLJones

I am watching the remake of Andremoda Strain on A&E. I swear the sat that brought down the plague was that failed Dish Sat. ;-)

Jerry


----------



## smiddy

Man...where's my DirecTV 11?


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> Man...where's my DirecTV 11?


in space, where it belongs, getting ready for it's grand debut.


----------



## Sixto

yep, it's quite quiet ... the TLE makers are all out celebrating Memorial Day ...


----------



## Flyboy917

Cool. They have another new cool toy they spent millions on. Where's my TIVO?


----------



## bgottschalk

GLJones said:


> I am watching the remake of Andremoda Strain on A&E. I swear the sat that brought down the plague was that failed Dish Sat. ;-)
> 
> Jerry


I always knew they were up to something... :lol:


----------



## l8er

PoitNarf said:


> It's Martian, not "Marstian"


 Hey, maybe he's a fan of James Marsters - who has been on TV a lot recently - (Smallville, Torchwood, et. al.) - so maybe he meant Marstian.


----------



## Drew2k

Flyboy917 said:


> Cool. They have another new cool toy they spent millions on. Where's my TIVO?


I dunno, where'd you leave it? Maybe you should put Lojack on it so you can keep better track of it.


----------



## mcbeevee

Testing has started!

DIRECTV Testing New HD Satellite


----------



## Hdhead

PoitNarf said:


> It's Martian, not "Marstian"  It's also microbes, not "microebes" and quiet, not quite. Are people trying to fill the spelling error void that Earl left behind? :lol:


Math is my forte. Hated English. I love NUMBERS!


----------



## loudo

Flyboy917 said:


> Cool. They have another new cool toy they spent millions on. Where's my TIVO?


In the history section of the DirecTV archives.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

loudo said:


> In the history section of the DirecTV archives.


...and in the Smithsonian....


----------



## steveken

mcbeevee said:


> Testing has started!
> 
> DIRECTV Testing New HD Satellite


Never believe a word that Swanni says. He has proven to be a boob too many times in the past.


----------



## RobertE

steveken said:


> Never believe a word that Swanni says. He has proven to be a boob too many times in the past.


True that. At times Swanni has a hard time predicting yesterdays weather. :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

mcbeevee said:


> Testing has started!
> 
> DIRECTV Testing New HD Satellite


Swanni just reads this thread and then makes his posts a few days later.


----------



## MrDad0330

Oh my, I went in to check sat signals and there it was...many transponders sending down data from D11. I couldnt believe it. Then I realized I was looking at 103c, not 99c.....dang.... oh well


----------



## rmartinj

Thanks for the info Sixto


----------



## mcbeevee

steveken said:


> Never believe a word that Swanni says. He has proven to be a boob too many times in the past.





RobertE said:


> True that. At times Swanni has a hard time predicting yesterdays weather. :lol:





jefbal99 said:


> Swanni just reads this thread and then makes his posts a few days later.


At least my post was on topic, and had nothing to do with (mis) spelling.

:flag:


----------



## DodgerKing

mcbeevee said:


> Testing has started!
> 
> DIRECTV Testing New HD Satellite


The headline states Direct has started testing, but yet in the article there is no mention of proof that testing has actually begun. He only mentions that they got approval for testing; something many on here have already posted last week.


----------



## man_rob

Anyway...

30 days to test, (28 now) then 3 or 4 days to migrate the Sat from the testing position to it's home. New channels in July? July is the start of the 3 quarter.


----------



## Sixto

sitting pretty ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE86)
1 32729U 08013A   08148.43297461 -.00000112  00000-0  00000+0 0   863
2 32729 000.0462 286.1481 0000521 089.8286 285.8444 01.00271177   805

NORAD #			32729N
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]05-27-2008 10:23:29[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	80
Inclination		0.046
RA of A. Node		286.148
Eccentricity		0.0000521
Argument of Perigee	89.829
Revs per day		1.00271177
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 785 x 35 789 km[/B]
Element number / age	86 / 0 day(s)

[B][U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U][/B]
TLE#86 (05-27-2008 10:23:29) [B]35,785 x 35,789 km[/B] (+45.8 hours, at 68.7 days, -  1km)
TLE#85 (05-25-2008 12:37:10) 35,786 x 35,792 km (+27.0 hours, at 66.8 days, + 39km)
TLE#84 (05-24-2008 09:39:35) 35,747 x 35,804 km (+20.0 hours, at 65.7 days, +  8km)
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) 35,739 x 35,884 km (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)
TLE#82 (05-23-2008 12:00:00) 35,748 x 35,888 km (+24.2 hours, at 64.8 days, +148km)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## l8er

mcbeevee said:


> At least my post was on topic, and had nothing to do with (mis) spelling.


 It also had nothing to do with anything "new". Swanni was using info from at least 4 or 5 days ago as "news" on 5/27/08. The headline clearly said "testing has begun" but the "article" offered no evidence of that fact.

Here's an earlier post with all the "info" in the Swanni "article" from Sixto on 5/23:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1613132&postcount=2515


----------



## loudo

I don't think at this point I would get to excited about many new HD channels, in the immediate future. When you go on the DirecTV web site, all you see under HD "Coming Soon" is *ABC Family*. Before DirecTV 10 went up they were broadcasting a whole list of "Coming Soon" channels. We are not seeing any of this promotion or press releases about upcoming programing additions, this time. But, who knows, many times DirecTV just lights them up and then promotes new additions.


----------



## mcbeevee

l8er said:


> It also had nothing to do with anything "new". Swanni was using info from at least 4 or 5 days ago as "news" on 5/27/08. The headline clearly said "testing has begun" but the "article" offered no evidence of that fact.
> 
> Here's an earlier post with all the "info" in the Swanni "article" from Sixto on 5/23:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1613132&postcount=2515


All I did was post the link. It's up to you guys whether or not you believe anything about the article. Maybe I should bring up the quiet/quite debate again?


----------



## P Smith

mcbeevee said:


> All I did was post the link. It's up to you guys whether or not you believe anything about the article. Maybe I should bring up the quiet/quite debate again?


Please, since it happened on regular basis - don't bring the secondary unreliable source here ! It is sort of pollution.


----------



## MrDad0330

If testing is complete by the end of June and Dish now claiming to have 95 HD channels, i just see D sitting with a perfect bird up there for two months. Maybe do the migration from the 119 and 110 and fire up a lot of local HD markets during that time.


----------



## SteveHas

If I were in charge at D* (man that would be sweet)
I would make the lighting of D11 the biggest marketing campaign in the company's history.
150 HD channels!
No one is close, and I would make sure that every living man woman and child on earth knew it.

I would light it up n the fall for
Football
new TV season
pay per view releise of summer blockbusters, 
etc.

To add to the marketing bang

just my thouhts

(although I personally hope it happens much sooner :grin: )


----------



## l8er

mcbeevee said:


> It's up to you guys whether or not you believe anything about the article. ....


 Actually it's got nothing to do with belief or lack thereof - Swanni regularly recycles old news as "new" news on his site. The link you posted contained nothing that hadn't already been posted in this very thread several days ago.

Since it offered no new information (and even a fake headline) - there was really no point in posting it.


----------



## mitoca

Just to throw another date into the mix - I was talking to a friend that works for D* in ElSegundo this weekend. He is by no means at the decision making levels, but he said that the "big date" being discussed in meetings is August 13th. You can take what you want from that - but it is a Wednesday... and would have them ready for football season.


----------



## doctor j

Code:


DIRECTV 11 
1 32729U 08013A   08148.43297461 -.00000112  00000-0  00000+0 0   863
2 32729 000.0462 286.1481 0000521 089.8286 285.8444 01.00271177   805

Name	DIRECTV 11_86B
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-27 10:23:29
Orbit # at Epoch	80
Inclination	0.046
RA of A. Node	286.148
Eccentricity	0.0000521
Argument of Perigee	89.829
Revs per day	1.00271177
Period	23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 789 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	285.844
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	86 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

Doctor j


----------



## smiddy

Ah man, I got excited about seeing signal test stuff from teh message above...but was whiplashed back into reality reading the rest of the post.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Ah man, I got excited about seeing signal test stuff from teh message above...but was whiplashed back into reality reading the rest of the post.


Unless your first name is Direct...

And your last name is TV...

And you live in El Segundo....

Don't expect anything for another month *at the least *to show up...


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unless your first name is Direct...
> 
> And your last name is TV...
> 
> And you live in El Segundo....
> 
> Don't expect anything for another month *at the least *to show up...


 You forgot a couple of things...but sure, I'll leave it at that...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> You forgot a couple of things...but sure, I'll leave it at that...


They'll be those 0 new transponders showing up at the end of testing (just like D10)...but otherwise....my guess is mid-August before we see some channels lit up.


----------



## smiddy

Sure, maybe. 

I think we'll see signals well before that though.


----------



## Azdeadwood

smiddy said:


> Sure, maybe.
> 
> I think we'll see signals well before that though.


Directv is not going to make the same mistake as last time. They said things like 3rd quarter so we all expected everything to happen on July 1st.

This time they are saving September. *My bet is on Wednesday, September 3rd at 5 AM.*


----------



## bruinfever

<rant>Can anyone explain to me how Swanni ever makes the news or how his site is worth two cents? I have never read anything on his site related to DirecTV that I hadn't learned from this site at least a few days before. I believe at the end of his "article" he was supposed to source Sixto???</rant>


----------



## MrDad0330

Smiddy.. Im sorry for the tease...I wasnt trying to do that...honestly this morning i must of had a brain cramp and was thinking 103c was D11. I got so excited I almost ran over to the pc to tell eveyone in dbs... my mind was playing tricks on me...but i laugh about it now... I am back to reality now. September just seems so far way.....


----------



## PoitNarf

Azdeadwood said:


> *My bet is on Wednesday, September 3rd at 5 AM.*


It will be well before then, most likely mid to late June or early July.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PoitNarf said:


> It will be well before then, most likely mid to late June or early July.


Perhaps we'll see some transponder activations and related testing activity...but no new channels/programming until mid-August at the soonest....anyone want to start the pool? :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps we'll see some transponder activations and related testing activity...but no new channels/programming until mid-August at the soonest....anyone want to start the pool? :lol: :lol:


I'll put $10 on


----------



## MrDad0330

Sure, a pool, that would be fun...


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Perhaps we'll see some transponder activations and related testing activity...but no new channels/programming until mid-August at the soonest....anyone want to start the pool? :lol: :lol:


I won't put my money where my keyboard is, but I suspect that this summer we'll get a few of the national HD's like ABC Family and perhaps a few of the larger remaining DMAs will get their HD locals, plus a lot of load-balancing between D10 and D11 for the existing nationals.

After that, I think mid-August for a big fall-season rollout of much more HD makes sense: ESPN U for college football season, some of the other HBO channels, etc.


----------



## merchione

LameLefty said:


> I won't put my money where my keyboard is, but I suspect that this summer we'll get a few of the national HD's like ABC Family and perhaps a few of the larger remaining DMAs will get their HD locals, .......


I hope we get our HD locals(El Paso TX)....just ordered HD DTV.... cant wait!!!


----------



## grump

merchione said:


> I hope we get our HD locals(El Paso TX)....just ordered HD DTV.... cant wait!!!


First of all, :welcome_s

Lots of us are waiting for HD locals, so you're not alone. If you want an idea of where in the queue you _might _be, check out this thread on another forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241


----------



## dwrats_56

I would think that the next thing we hear would be a press release from Boeing or DirecTV stating control of D-11 has been turned over to DirecTV.


----------



## merchione

grump said:


> First of all, :welcome_s
> 
> Lots of us are waiting for HD locals, so you're not alone. If you want an idea of where in the queue you _might _be, check out this thread on another forum.


Damn 98th....does anyone know where D* is at on that list? 75th? 80th?


----------



## mcbeevee

merchione said:


> Damn 98th....does anyone know where D* is at on that list? 75th? 80th?


DIRECTV® HD Local Channels and RSNs by DMA Ranking


----------



## smiddy

Sirshagg said:


> I'll put $10 on


Man, I wondered where that graphic went, THANKS for REMINDING ME. :lol:


----------



## merchione

mcbeevee said:


> DIRECTV® HD Local Channels and RSNs by DMA Ranking


207. Juneau, AK....???????

98. El Paso.....??????

I wonder why Juneau came 1st?


----------



## mcbeevee

merchione said:


> 207. Juneau, AK....???????
> 98. El Paso.....??????
> I wonder why Juneau came 1st?


Directv has done a little bit of skipping around inside the dma rankings. The customers in Norfolk, VA (dma #42) are the ones that have really been ignored!


----------



## MattDing

merchione said:


> Damn 98th....does anyone know where D* is at on that list? 75th? 80th?


They definitely aren't up to 142 yet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I won't put my money where my keyboard is, but I suspect that this summer we'll get a few of the national HD's like ABC Family and perhaps a few of the larger remaining DMAs will get their HD locals, plus a lot of load-balancing between D10 and D11 for the existing nationals.
> 
> After that, I think mid-August for a big fall-season rollout of much more HD makes sense: ESPN U for college football season, some of the other HBO channels, etc.


What he said....


----------



## uscboy

I'm hoping they look at the cities Dish has covered recently and hit those quickly 
to compete - Columbia already has HD Locals from Dish now. I would love locals 
in HD on DirecTV by tailgating season...


----------



## BlueSnake

uscboy said:


> I'm hoping they look at the cities Dish has covered recently and hit those quickly
> to compete - Columbia already has HD Locals from Dish now. I would love locals
> in HD on DirecTV by tailgating season...


I'm with you on this. I live down in a valley and my OTA HD reception fluctuates. Some days it's great and some days I can't watch a thing on OTA.

Get on the ball Directv we want our Columbia locals in HD.:sure:


----------



## ziltomil

mcbeevee said:


> DIRECTV® HD Local Channels and RSNs by DMA Ranking


I'd like to contest something on that list. On the Miami section of the list they only 1 station as having HD news, but NBC6's news studio serves as WSFL's news studio also, thus, their news is HD also.


----------



## swans

uscboy said:


> I'm hoping they look at the cities Dish has covered recently and hit those quickly
> to compete - Columbia already has HD Locals from Dish now. I would love locals
> in HD on DirecTV by tailgating season...


Dish brought up Mobile's HD locals recently. If DirecTV doesn't get it together they could lose some clients as well as potential ones.


----------



## mcbeevee

ziltomil said:


> I'd like to contest something on that list. On the Miami section of the list they only 1 station as having HD news, but NBC6's news studio serves as WSFL's news studio also, thus, their news is HD also.


There is a link at the top of the page for error corrections.


----------



## freerein100

Are DMA rankings grouped by population or how are they done?


----------



## litzdog911

freerein100 said:


> Are DMA rankings grouped by population or how are they done?


Learn all about "Designated Market Areas" here ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_market


----------



## GP245

freerein100 said:


> Are DMA rankings grouped by population or how are they done?


DMAs are based upon the number of Television Homes in the area.


----------



## VARTV

mcbeevee said:


> Directv has done a little bit of skipping around inside the dma rankings. The customers in Norfolk, VA (dma #42) are the ones that have really been ignored!


Yep!


----------



## darekd

merchione said:


> Damn 98th....does anyone know where D* is at on that list? 75th? 80th?


My city is 67th and we still don't have HD locals.


----------



## curt8403

darekd said:


> My city is 67th and we still don't have HD locals.


Directv does not follow any order for local channels :sure: the process depends on negotiation with the local channels, and reaching an agreement to allow Directv to carry the locals. Some providers are playing hardball. :grin:

Contact your local stations 

(I speak only for myself in this)


----------



## DCappy

Markets are Designated Market Areas, as defined by Nielsen Media Research, and are sorted by their rank in the 2007-08 television season.

A lot of things enter into it. A higher numbered DMA may have signed contracts with Directv and therefore light up it's high definintion sooner than a lower number DMA.


----------



## Azdeadwood

Sirshagg said:


> I'll put $10 on


*Is this the Directv idea of "soon"? *

Remember we started hearing about the "*over 100 HD channels*" coming "*soon*" to Directv in *November of 2006* but didn't see any new channels until October 2007 and we still haven't reach 100 in May of 2008.

My idea of "soon would be in a few weeks, not years!

Anyway, we won't see anything until at least September 2008.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

merchione said:


> 207. Juneau, AK....???????
> 
> 98. El Paso.....??????
> 
> I wonder why Juneau came 1st?


From what I've read on here, I think D* was required to put up Alaska (and maybe HI) locals by the FCC, or something like that.


----------



## curt8403

theratpatrol said:


> From what I've read on here, I think D* was required to put up Alaska (and maybe HI) locals by the FCC, or something like that.


the agreement was there for alaska, but Alaska and Hawaii have to use HD units to get locals


----------



## curt8403

Azdeadwood said:


> *Is this the Directv idea of "soon"? *
> 
> Remember we started hearing about the "*over 100 HD channels*" coming "*soon*" to Directv in *November of 2006* but didn't see any new channels until October 2007 and we still haven't reach 100 in May of 2008.
> 
> My idea of "soon would be in a few weeks, not years!
> 
> Anyway, we won't see anything until at least September 2008.


remember, SeaLaunch had a unit blow up on launch just before D11 was originally scheduled to go up. Would you rather that Directv launch when the issue was unresolved and lose a satellite???


----------



## smiddy

I have a feeling that we're going to hear something in the next few days with regard to DirecTV 11.


----------



## machavez00

litzdog911 said:


> Learn all about "Designated Market Areas" here ....
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_market


From those maps, If I live in St John's AZ(Apache County, I have family that lives there), I'm in the Albuquerque/Santa Fe DMA. DirecTV says my locals are Phoenix DMA channels. Hmmm


----------



## bruinfever

smiddy said:


> I have a feeling that we're going to hear something in the next few days with regard to DirecTV 11.


I hope you're right but I'm not _that _optimistic...........:sure:


----------



## freerein100

It seems their numbers are low by about 40,000 people (low guestimate) Calcasieu Parish has 160,000 population


----------



## JLucPicard

Aren't there already threads dedicated to the discussion of HD and DMA's? Please, I prefer to read about the progress of the deployment of DirecTV 11 in this thread...

:backtotop


----------



## Sixto

JLucPicard said:


> Aren't there already threads dedicated to the discussion of HD and DMA's? Please, I prefer to read about the progress of the deployment of DirecTV 11 in this thread...:backtotop


Yep, items that would be news ... any Ka-lo signals from 99° (only detectable with a spectrum analyzer), 99(c) on the signal strength screen, new readings from a previously "n/a" 99(s) transponder, movement of D11 from 99.4° to 99.225°, a credible rumor...


----------



## Azdeadwood

curt8403 said:


> remember, SeaLaunch had a unit blow up on launch just before D11 was originally scheduled to go up. Would you rather that Directv launch when the issue was unresolved and lose a satellite???


Of course not. The issue is that Directv was advertising for something they did not have. They were advertising well before the planned launch and using the "soon" phrase. We have seen that from the time of the launch to actual use of the satellite takes several months. If they had been honest I wouldn't have been so irritated. I also would have waited to switch to all HD receivers.


----------



## crashHD

Azdeadwood said:


> They were advertising well before the planned launch and using the "soon" phrase.


I thought it was pretty standards use of "soon" to indicate things upcoming in the many months timeframe. It's on par with other things, like the AM21, and the 6.4a DirecTivo update.


----------



## LameLefty

crashHD said:


> I thought it was pretty standards use of "soon" to indicate things upcoming in the many months timeframe. It's on par with other things, like the AM21, and the 6.4a DirecTivo update.


AM21 soon? Why, mine is in my living room right now. 

Relax, everyone . . . "soon" is a relative term. There's a heck of a lot of HD available now to most people, and a lot more coming in the near-term. Unlike certain competitors (who are bandwidth-starved and playing clever games with numbers to inflate things), Directv has the assets in place to add a LOT of new HD programming in the weeks' timeframe, not multiple months or longer. And D12 is coming next year as well, which will only help maintain or even widen that advantage.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Soon is the best word there is


----------



## gregjones

Azdeadwood said:


> Of course not. The issue is that Directv was advertising for something they did not have. They were advertising well before the planned launch and using the "soon" phrase. We have seen that from the time of the launch to actual use of the satellite takes several months. If they had been honest I wouldn't have been so irritated. I also would have waited to switch to all HD receivers.


Which HD that was promised but not delivered made you switch earlier? Their long-term promises were always 2007 to be the year they delivered the majority of HD. They made that. Locals have been late but that is a completely different discussion. I have a perfectly good OTA antenna that picks up the stations I want.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Yep, items that would be news ... any Ka-lo signals from 99° (only detectable with a spectrum analyzer), 99(c) on the signal strength screen, new readings from a previously "n/a" 99(s) transponder, movement of D11 from 99.4° to 99.225°, a credible rumor...


using a sonora power inserter to switch 99c/s and 103c/s so you can "see" 99 with the 103 signal strength meter 

edit: assumes D11 will broadcast on the same freqs as D10. good assumption?


----------



## houskamp

tuff bob said:


> using a sonora power inserter to switch 99c/s and 103c/s so you can "see" 99 with the 103 signal strength meter
> 
> edit: assumes D11 will broadcast on the same freqs as D10. good assumption?


Ok EaglePC, settle down  :lol:


----------



## tcusta00

houskamp said:


> Ok EaglePC, settle down  :lol:


!rolling


----------



## smiddy

You guys are funny, I needed a laugh this morning, thanks for providing it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tuff bob said:


> using a sonora power inserter to switch 99c/s and 103c/s so you can "see" 99 with the 103 signal strength meter
> 
> edit: assumes D11 will broadcast on the same freqs as D10. good assumption?


I'm not putzing with my Sonora....I can wait until we see some new transponder activity in a few weeks down the road.... :eek2: :lol:


----------



## swans

gregjones said:


> Which HD that was promised but not delivered made you switch earlier? Their long-term promises were always 2007 to be the year they delivered the majority of HD. They made that. Locals have been late but that is a completely different discussion. I have a perfectly good OTA antenna that picks up the stations I want.


DirecTV promises locals for Mobile, AL by year end of 2006. I guess that is what you call soon!


----------



## FHSPSU67

"Locals have been late but that is a completely different discussion."


----------



## doctor j

Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08149.40437524 -.00000111  00000-0  00000+0 0   877
2 32729 000.0437 286.4463 0000250 112.2584 253.7724 01.00270983   811

Name	DIRECTV 11_87
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-28 09:42:18
Orbit # at Epoch	81
Inclination	0.044
RA of A. Node	286.446
Eccentricity	0.0000250
Argument of Perigee	112.258
Revs per day	1.00270983
Period	23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 788 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	253.772
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	87 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

I'd say we're really there now

Doctor j


----------



## EaglePC

smiddy said:


> Man, I wondered where that graphic went, THANKS for REMINDING ME. :lol:


I'll put my nickels on it :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Steve Robertson

I like that really soon stuff much better than just plain soon


----------



## 21hawk

swans said:


> DirecTV promises locals for Mobile, AL by year end of 2006. I guess that is what you call soon!


Springfield MO on that list, still no locals, Directv bought space for HD uplink in '06, never put one piece of equipment in it.


----------



## P Smith

So far, no new signals (!, not channels ) in Ka-Hi (L and RHCP) 99W yet .


----------



## l8er

Steve Robertson said:


> Soon is the best word there is


 Although "now" trumps "soon", 'most any time.


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> So far, no new signals (!, not channels ) in Ka-Hi (L and RHCP) 99W yet .


I wonder if they narrowed the beam confinement to the Colorado site for telemetry initially. Thanks for the update.


----------



## gregjones

FHSPSU67 said:


> "Locals have been late but that is a completely different discussion."


Yes, that is what I said. Have you ever talked to anyone at LIN or any number of other roadblocks in the way to getting a market up. LIL issues seem to be largely contractual and have little to no place in the thread regarding the placement of a new satellite.

I meant what I said and said what I meant.

I do get irritated at people commenting that DirecTV has been late on national channels. Time and again, people have complained about them being delivered in the fall of 2007 when "end of 2007" was the stated goal for years.


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> So far, no new signals (!, not channels ) in Ka-Hi (L and RHCP) 99W yet .


Don't you mean "Ka-lo" for D11 (18.3-18.8 GHz) at 99W?

You should have some readings there for "Ka-hi" (19.7-20.2 GHz) from Spaceway 2.


----------



## steveken

gregjones said:


> I do get irritated at people commenting that DirecTV has been late on national channels. Time and again, people have complained about them being delivered in the fall of 2007 when "end of 2007" was the stated goal for years.


There are people that come here to do nothing but ***** and complain. One or two people in particular comes to mind in their routine complaints of spending money just on promises of channels (local channels I believe would specifically be the reason). Sounds like people who love to be disappointed to me.

For future reference, people, don't go out and do anything or buy anything based on what is said! Well, unless you like to ***** about it, then go ahead.

Anyway, enough of this *****ing and complaining in this thread about what is or isn't in place yet. THIS IS NOT THE THREAD FOR THAT!!! WE DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT!! Please, find the appropriate thread for this topic and keep it there.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Don't you mean "Ka-lo" for D11 (18.3-18.8 GHz) at 99W?
> 
> You should have some readings there for "Ka-hi" (19.7-20.2 GHz) from Spaceway 2.


Will be gladly appreciated if you will share tpn maps for SW-1/2 and D-10/11 sats.


----------



## FHSPSU67

gregjones said:


> Yes, that is what I said. Have you ever talked to anyone at LIN or any number of other roadblocks in the way to getting a market up. LIL issues seem to be largely contractual and have little to no place in the thread regarding the placement of a new satellite.
> 
> I meant what I said and said what I meant.
> 
> I do get irritated at people commenting that DirecTV has been late on national channels. Time and again, people have complained about them being delivered in the fall of 2007 when "end of 2007" was the stated goal for years.


Sorry, I was using your quote to respond to Swans. I'm on your side


----------



## P Smith

:backtotop 

Really, enough posting offtopic !


----------



## gregjones

I can picture the parking space up there, with "Reserved for D11" painted in bright white.

I think the release of EncoreHD is looking more and more like a good indicator of when things will start lighting up.


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> Will be gladly appreciated if you will share tpn maps for SW-1/2 and D-10/11 sats.


http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv10.html

http://www.lyngsat.com/space1.html

no info for sw 1 or d11.


----------



## Bill Milford

Will this allow them to finally add PBS HD as promised what seems eons ago?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Bill Milford said:


> Will this allow them to finally add PBS HD as promised what seems eons ago?


Yes when D11 is turned on that will allow DIRECTV to start adding PBS HD to local markets. How long it will take to do is the question.


----------



## gregjones

Bill Milford said:


> Will this allow them to finally add PBS HD as promised what seems eons ago?


They announced an agreement. They never announced a timeline. Most customers are able to get PBS HD via OTA. They have not missed a deadline as they never gave one.


----------



## RAD

tuff bob said:


> http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv10.html
> 
> http://www.lyngsat.com/space1.html
> 
> no info for sw 1 or d11.


I think he (and many others) is the map that what channels are on what transponders.


----------



## loudo

Bill Milford said:


> Will this allow them to finally add PBS HD as promised what seems eons ago?


In their press release of last December 19th, they announced that the rollout of PBS HD stations would *BEGIN* in 2008.


----------



## curt8403

loudo said:


> In their press release of last December 19th, they announced that the rollout of PBS HD stations would *BEGIN* in 2008.


so still over 6 months available


----------



## doctor j

6 days after launch from SeaLaunch!

Galaxy 18
1 32951U 08024A 08148.75995762 +.00000000 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00192
2 32951 000.0399 115.6470 0025211 036.6287 241.6800 01.00635382000098

Name	GALAXY 18_19
NORAD #	32951
COSPAR designator	2008-024-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-05-27 18:14:20
Orbit # at Epoch	9
Inclination	0.040
RA of A. Node	115.647
*Eccentricity	0.0025211*
Argument of Perigee	36.629
Revs per day	1.00635382
Period	23h 50m 54s (1430.90 min)
Semi-major axis	42 063 km
*Perigee x Apogee	35 579 x 35 791 km*
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	241.680
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0019 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

All depends on how fast you wanna get there.

Doctor j


----------



## lwilli201

Could be weight has something to do with it also;

D 11 - 5923 Kg (13,058 LB)

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5385

Galaxy 18 - 4642 Kg (10,234 LB)
http://www.spacetoday.net/Summary/4192


----------



## dogs31

It's PARKED!!!!! (Yet?)


----------



## LameLefty

Mass has a LOT to do with it, as do any number of other engineering concerns: how much fuel you want to budget for transfer versus operational ops, how the spacecraft propulsion systems are designed (higher thrust versus lower thrust, longer burns versus shorter ones, efficiency/ISP of the propulsion units), plus possible limitations on the size or duration of the burns due to thermal or structural limits, etc., etc., etc. 

In short, it's ALL a tradeoff, almost all eventually boiling down to mass and power. In fact, in my opinion, the only engineering tasks more limited by available mass and power than aircraft design is spacecraft design.


----------



## curt8403

doctor j said:


> 6 days after launch from SeaLaunch!
> 
> Galaxy 18
> 1 32951U 08024A 08148.75995762 +.00000000 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00192
> 2 32951 000.0399 115.6470 0025211 036.6287 241.6800 01.00635382000098
> 
> Name GALAXY 18_19
> NORAD # 32951
> COSPAR designator 2008-024-A
> Epoch (UTC) 2008-05-27 18:14:20
> Orbit # at Epoch 9
> Inclination 0.040
> RA of A. Node 115.647
> *Eccentricity 0.0025211*
> Argument of Perigee 36.629
> Revs per day 1.00635382
> Period 23h 50m 54s (1430.90 min)
> Semi-major axis 42 063 km
> *Perigee x Apogee 35 579 x 35 791 km*
> BStar (drag term) 0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly 241.680
> Propagation model SDP4
> Element number / age 0019 / 1 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS N/A
> Diameters N/A
> Satellite group N/A
> 
> All depends on how fast you wanna get there.
> 
> Doctor j


is this post one that should be here, the sat is not a D* sat. granted it is a sat. but do we track all sats or just our own


----------



## mattgwyther

curt8403 said:


> is this post one that should be here, the sat is not a D* sat. granted it is a sat. but do we track all sats or just our own


I think the point was Galaxy 18 parking time vs. D-11 parking time.


----------



## P Smith

tuff bob said:


> http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv10.html
> 
> http://www.lyngsat.com/space1.html
> 
> no info for sw 1 or d11.


I forgot to mention - from real source preferably manufacturer or sat operator, not Lyngsat as in this case some ppl does contribute there. I was in hope HoTat2 have the real info in his hands.


----------



## tuff bob

P Smith said:


> I forgot to mention - from real source preferably manufacturer or sat operator, not Lyngsat as in this case some ppl does contribute there. I was in hope HoTat2 have the real info in his hands.


best I can do is from the FCC filing:

The DIRECTV 11 satellite will operate in the 18.365-18.53, 18.57-18.735, 28.36-28.525, and 29.26-29.425 GHz bands


----------



## mgtr

Latest news - there continues to be no news!!!!!


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> I forgot to mention - from real source preferably manufacturer or sat operator, not Lyngsat as in this case some ppl does contribute there. I was in hope HoTat2 have the real info in his hands.


Here is a graphic of the transponder layout for D10 & 11. Don't have any TP layout on the Spaceways. As they are kinda weird satellites. Outside of the fact that they downlink into the Ka-hi band of 19.7-20.2 GHz.


----------



## P Smith

Thank you, went outside with my SA to check Ka-Lo of 99W 

EDIT: tweaked the dish (1m) to get max signal from SW-2(Ka-Hi) , SA connected to the triple LNBF directly;
nothing in Ka-Lo ( L and RHCP).


----------



## tuff bob

Does that imply that D10 and D11 will use the same frequencies for CONUS?


----------



## HoTat2

tuff bob said:


> Does that imply that D10 and D11 will use the same frequencies for CONUS?


Yes. However due to their operation from different GSO slots (99 vs. 103) there is no co-channel interference. For instance, in a conventional non-SWM arrangement, the LNBF assembly sends either the 101 or 99 signals (R/LHCP). Or the 110/119/103 (R/LHCP) ones. But never both at the same time.


----------



## smiddy

RAD said:


> I think he (and many others) is the map that what channels are on what transponders.


If I ever get the right adapter for my laptop, there is a way to get the information directly from the receiver over USB. But I have been too tied up to actually run the trapline on this one.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> If I ever get the right adapter for my laptop, there is a way to get the information directly from the receiver over USB. But I have been too tied up to actually run the trapline on this one.


You're overestimated your knowledge. Forget about it.
The feedback info has been asked for, but not implemented.


----------



## Paul A

Anticipation: Nominal


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> You're overestimated your knowledge. Forget about it.
> The feedback info has been asked for, but not implemented.


Really, that bites! It was one of those things I was hopeful of doing one of these days when I get the wife and kids out of the house. Man!


----------



## smiddy

Paul A said:


> Anticipation: Nominal


Not mine! Anticipation: Exceptional!


----------



## HoTat2

Here is D11's specific downlink frequency information in chart form for both National TPs and Tracking, Telemetry, and Control ("TT&C");



















Since the specs. show the telemetry on a wide national beam. I would think a SA should be able to see something at 99W for the TT&C frequencies at least.


----------



## LameLefty

Thanks for that info. I find it incredibly interesting that the command frequencies are different from transfer orbit ops than they are for on-station ops.


----------



## tuff bob

LameLefty said:


> Thanks for that info. I find it incredibly interesting that the command frequencies are different from transfer orbit ops than they are for on-station ops.


I imagine that the on-station ops frequencies are reused for multiple orbital locations (in the same way the same frequencies are used for TV from say 110 and 119), but the transfer ops frequency cannot be reused in this way as the satellite is moving relative to the Earth ... no reason the transfer frequency cannot be reused by multiple launches, though obviously not at the same time.


----------



## LameLefty

tuff bob said:


> I imagine that the on-station ops frequencies are reused for multiple orbital locations (in the same way the same frequencies are used for TV from say 110 and 119), but the transfer ops frequency cannot be reused in this way as the satellite is moving relative to the Earth ... no reason the transfer frequency cannot be reused by multiple launches, though obviously not at the same time.


All of that is true of course.

However the specific aspects I find interesting really are the implications that you cannot share command and control frequencies among spacecraft. I would think that in this 21st century age of digital communications, it would be a simple matter to have command and telemetry streams from multiple spacecraft sharing frequencies, but that each spacecraft would be able to sort out commands addressed to it specifically versus those addressed to its neighbors, and respond appropriately. If the command and data streams were encrypted and digitally-signed using a scheme like public-key crypto it would seem to be a trivial task to share frequencies this way.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I think I'll just patiently continue to be educated by the gurus here, and also wait until signs of activated transponders appear for D11 (99).

Simce we know testing will take place for 30 days per the FCC license, there's no sense in getting to hyper about any "anticipation" until the test cycle is confirmed as successfully complete.


----------



## RunnerFL

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think I'll just patiently continue to be educated by the gurus here, and also wait until signs of activated transponders appear for D11 (99).


Same here. As far as this thread is concerned I am in sponge mode.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think I'll just patiently continue to be educated by the gurus here, and also wait until signs of activated transponders appear for D11 (99).
> 
> Simce we know testing will take place for 30 days per the FCC license, there's no sense in getting to hyper about any "anticipation" until the test cycle is confirmed as successfully complete.


Oh come now . . . you know it won't necessarily take 30 days for the testing phase and besides, before the press release goes out from Boeing or Directv, it's much more likely that someone on this forum will have signal meter readings or oscilloscope traces or leaked info from a Directv insider . . .


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> Oh come now . . . you know it won't necessarily take 30 days for the testing phase and besides, before the press release goes out from Boeing or Directv, it's much more likely that someone on this forum will have signal meter readings or oscilloscope traces or leaked info from a Directv insider . . .


...I wonder who that might be...


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> All of that is true of course.
> 
> However the specific aspects I find interesting really are the implications that you cannot share command and control frequencies among spacecraft. I would think that in this 21st century age of digital communications, it would be a simple matter to have command and telemetry streams from multiple spacecraft sharing frequencies, but that each spacecraft would be able to sort out commands addressed to it specifically versus those addressed to its neighbors, and respond appropriately. If the command and data streams were encrypted and digitally-signed using a scheme like public-key crypto it would seem to be a trivial task to share frequencies this way.


Yeah;

It would seem that way. But with radiation/reception patterns such as this for D11's TT&C subsystem are typical of other satellites. I guess there would be a tremendous problem with mutual interference if they shared common frequencies.



















Not exactly "directional antennas" to allow for any frequency reuse schemes for the TT&C I would think.


----------



## P Smith

HoTat2 said:


> Here is D11's specific downlink frequency information in chart form for both National TPs and Tracking, Telemetry, and Control ("TT&C");
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since the specs. show the telemetry on a wide national beam. I would think a SA should be able to see something at 99W for the TT&C frequencies at least.


You forget LNBF specs(AU-9, AT-9), it could cut out or substancially decrease that frequencies.


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah;
> 
> It would seem that way. But with radiation/reception patterns such as this for D11's TT&C subsystem are typical of other satellites. I guess there would be a tremendous problem with mutual interference if they shared common frequencies.
> 
> [SNIPPED GRAPHICS]
> 
> Not exactly "directional antennas" to allow for any frequency reuse schemes for the TT&C I would think.


Interesting; thanks for sharing those depictions. Yes, given that info, I can see where signal interference could be a serious issue if frequency-sharing was used.

* * *

So, as I was saying in another part of this thread, it's not like we probably won't have a Directv insider feeding us some info . . . :grin:


----------



## PoitNarf

LameLefty said:


> So, as I was saying in another part of this thread, it's not like we probably won't have a Directv insider feeding us some info . . . :grin:


Yeah right, like some DirecTV employee is going to come in this thread... maybe even giving themselves a clever name like "DirecTV-11", and spill the beans about certain things  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> All of that is true of course.
> 
> However the specific aspects I find interesting really are the implications that you cannot share command and control frequencies among spacecraft. I would think that in this 21st century age of digital communications, it would be a simple matter to have command and telemetry streams from multiple spacecraft sharing frequencies, but that each spacecraft would be able to sort out commands addressed to it specifically versus those addressed to its neighbors, and respond appropriately. If the command and data streams were encrypted and digitally-signed using a scheme like public-key crypto it would seem to be a trivial task to share frequencies this way.


I concur with this, but I suspect we're dealing with a rule set within an institution that requires further education in order to understand what the capabilities are (all of those three lettered agencies). It is easier to use the current road than to blaze the trail (we should talk about my current project some time).

I do think one day we will get there but it will take some time to blaze the trails.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think I'll just patiently continue to be educated by the gurus here, and also wait until signs of activated transponders appear for D11 (99).
> 
> Simce we know testing will take place for 30 days per the FCC license, there's no sense in getting to hyper about any "anticipation" until the test cycle is confirmed as successfully complete.


I think they can do the testing in two to four days the rest of the time allocated is for boo boos that pop up.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Oh come now . . . you know it won't necessarily take 30 days for the testing phase and besides, before the press release goes out from Boeing or Directv, i*t's much more likely that someone on this forum will have signal meter readings* or oscilloscope traces or leaked info from a Directv insider . . .


Very well said.

Sitting pretty at 99.4 ... "something" will show "soon" ...


----------



## EaglePC

can't wait to see more hd july 1st


----------



## bruinfever

Sixto said:


> Very well said.
> 
> Sitting pretty at 99.4 ... "something" will show "soon" ...


Can't "something" only show up if D11 is at 99.2W since they are not allowed to show "something" from 99.4?? You think that they will move it so soon after beginning testing? In my opinion, based upon their statements and the fact that they took it nice and slow to get D11 in its final parking position, they don't seem like they're in a hurry at all.....


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> can't wait to see more hd july 1st


If it were to occur the first week of July it'd most likely be on July 2nd since that's a Wednesday.


----------



## PoitNarf

bruinfever said:


> Can't "something" only show up if D11 is at 99.2W since they are not allowed to show "something" from 99.4??


Most of the guys here are talking about seeing various signals indicating that the transponders have been lit up for testing. You're probably correct in that we won't actually see any channels from it on our receivers until it's at 99.2, although I don't remember if those test channels that showed up with D10 were from the testing location or the final location.


----------



## Sixto

bruinfever said:


> Can't "something" only show up if D11 is at 99.2W since they are not allowed to show "something" from 99.4?? You think that they will move it so soon after beginning testing? In my opinion, based upon their statements and the fact that they took it nice and slow to get D11 in its final parking position, they don't seem like they're in a hurry at all.....


The FCC filing states that D11 can transmit Space-to-Earth within the same spectrum (18.3-18.8 GHz) for 99.4° (test) as 99.225° (final). With the proper equipment, the signal should be able to be detected.

For D10, that signal did not appear on any signal strength screen until the move to the final location, but the rumor was that some very few "special" people with "engineering cards" were able to see channels from the test location. Those with spectrum analyzers confirmed the signal.

It appears that they will be able to load up D11 with HD channels during the test period. Balance the bandwidth. Do lots of testing ...

When D10 moved from the test location to the final location, we saw transponder signals immediately on 9/12/2007. Channels were targeted to go "live" a week later on 9/19/2007, but got delayed to 9/26/2007 with the authorization issue (which we should not have this time).


----------



## crashHD

PoitNarf said:


> You're probably correct in that we won't actually see any channels from it on our receivers until it's at 99.2


<speculation>
I would think, since a dish can be off alignment by .2 degrees and still get signal, it may be possible to pick up that signal despite the fact it is at 99.4 instead of 99.2. If the receiver is not getting anything from it, I think there's another reason...like software telling it not to, or D11 may not be focused on the full conus during testing, or any other of a number or reasons<speculation>


----------



## LameLefty

crashHD said:


> <speculation>
> I would think, since a dish can be off alignment by .2 degrees and still get signal, it may be possible to pick up that signal despite the fact it is at 99.4 instead of 99.2. If the receiver is not getting anything from it, I think there's another reason...like software telling it not to, or D11 may not be focused on the full conus during testing, or any other of a number or reasons<speculation>


No need to speculate - the azimuth difference on earth for a sat at 99.4 versus 99.2 is insignificant. Your dish is probably reflecting photons from D11 to the LNB right now. But the receivers are not allowed to "see" them until Directv says so.


----------



## reweiss

HoTat2 said:


> Yeah;
> 
> It would seem that way. But with radiation/reception patterns such as this for D11's TT&C subsystem are typical of other satellites. I guess there would be a tremendous problem with mutual interference if they shared common frequencies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not exactly "directional antennas" to allow for any frequency reuse schemes for the TT&C I would think.


*That's why I love this forum. I get to learn about satellites and get to see blue prints for the "Death Star". *


----------



## RAD

Chase Carey in the Lehman call today said they would add new HD capacity in August.


----------



## Sixto

crashHD said:


> <speculation>
> I would think, since a dish can be off alignment by .2 degrees and still get signal, it may be possible to pick up that signal despite the fact it is at 99.4 instead of 99.2. If the receiver is not getting anything from it, I think there's another reason...like software telling it not to, or D11 may not be focused on the full conus during testing, or any other of a number or reasons<speculation>


What Lefty said (and per my previous post) .. we're just waiting on a real signal from space. The dish is fine ... P Smith (and others) will let us know when ...


----------



## grump

LameLefty said:


> Your dish is probably reflecting photons from D11 to the LNB right now.


Are you sure it's photons that it would be reflecting?


----------



## LameLefty

grump said:


> Are you sure it's photons that it would be reflecting?


Yes.


----------



## curt8403

grump said:


> Are you sure it's photons that it would be reflecting?


I doubt that D11 is sending out Photon (Torpedos) (Light balls) to the dishes, we would soon have no satellite dishes left


----------



## LameLefty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon


----------



## bruinfever

Sixto said:


> The FCC filing states that D11 can transmit Space-to-Earth within the same spectrum (18.3-18.8 GHz) for 99.4° (test) as 99.225° (final). With the proper equipment, the signal should be able to be detected.
> 
> For D10, that signal did not appear on any signal strength screen until the move to the final location, but the rumor was that some very few "special" people with "engineering cards" were able to see channels from the test location. Those with spectrum analyzers confirmed the signal.
> 
> It appears that they will be able to load up D11 with HD channels during the test period. Balance the bandwidth. Do lots of testing ...
> 
> When D10 moved from the test location to the final location, we saw transponder signals immediately on 9/12/2007. Channels were targeted to go "live" a week later on 9/19/2007, but got delayed to 9/26/2007 with the authorization issue (which we should not have this time).


I remember that guy from AVSForums who had the engineering card, wonder if it still works.  But when you say we'll be able to "see" something you mean with special equipment, right? The general public won't be able to "see" something, i.e. a signal on transponder 21 on 99(c), until it moves to 99.2w. Is that correct?


----------



## bonscott87

Just to note that August was mentioned on the conference call today as when D11 will light up with new HD channels. Thread on the conference call in the DirecTV General Forum.


----------



## LameLefty

bruinfever said:


> The general public won't be able to "see" something, i.e. a signal on transponder 21 on 99(c), until it moves to 99.2w. Is that correct?


The general public will be able to "see" signals on the Signal Strength screens of our receivers when Directv allows it - 99.4 or 99.2 makes no appreciable difference in azimuth angle for a fixed dish at the distance from earth's surface to GSO altitude, so that will have no effect.


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon


technical technical technical, yes microwaves are made of Photons, but Photons are usually thought of as light particles, and of course you hear the word Photon, you think of Star Trek and Photon Torpedoes, (Light balls) I hope D11 does not become the deathstar.   :lol:


----------



## hdgreg

curt8403 said:


> I doubt that D11 is sending out Photon (Torpedos) (Light balls) to the dishes, we would soon have no satellite dishes left


Better that, that getting our dishes hit with the "problem stuff" from the space station!


----------



## Sixto

bruinfever said:


> I remember that guy from AVSForums who had the engineering card, wonder if it still works.  But when you say we'll be able to "see" something you mean with special equipment, right? The general public won't be able to "see" something, i.e. a signal on transponder 21 on 99(c), until it moves to 99.2w. Is that correct?


General public, with just a receiver, will not be able to see D11 until DirecTV turns on the transponder readings. For D10, that was not until the satellite reached the final location. But the signals did appear immediately on 9/12/2007, the same day we saw the TLE with the move.

General public, with a spectrum analyzer, should have no problem seeing D11 when testing starts. You need some knowledge but it's not that hard. Personally, I don't have the proper equipment. Rather rely on P Smith and others. You don't see much other then there's a signal.

Other then that, you need special equipment and special authorization, to see anything more.


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> technical technical technical, yes microwaves are made of Photons, but Photons are usually thought of as light particles,


Not to my electrical engineering and physics professors in college . . .


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> Not to my electrical engineering and physics professors in college . . .


I wish I had Chekov's Photon collector.


----------



## colebert

Great. I'll go grab my spectrum analyzer... It's in storage right next to my snow cone machine and flux capacitator.


----------



## grump

LameLefty said:


> Not to my electrical engineering and physics professors in college . . .


I went to a state school. We couldn't afford photons.

Thanks for the clarifying my confusions.


----------



## LameLefty

grump said:


> I went to a state school. We couldn't afford photons.


Hey, so did I. That's no excuse to forget Maxwell, Planck and Einstein! 



> Thanks for the clarifying my confusions.


That's what I'm here for . . . :grin:


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> General public, with just a receiver, will not be able to see D11 until DirecTV turns on the transponder readings.


I'm so tempted to get a sonora so I can flip the 99 and 103 so I can use the D10 meters on D11 :lol:

think my wife will think I'm crazy?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> think my wife will think I'm crazy?


Yes.


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Yes.


:lol:


----------



## RAD

bonscott87 said:


> Just to note that August was mentioned on the conference call today as when D11 will light up with new HD channels. Thread on the conference call in the DirecTV General Forum.


You're a little slow today, http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1621843&postcount=2857


----------



## Mr.Pibb

grump said:


> I went to a state school. We couldn't afford photons.
> 
> Thanks for the clarifying my confusions.


Our photons kept acting like they were waves, so we had to throw them out.


----------



## curt8403

Mr.Pibb said:


> Our photons kept acting like they were waves, so we had to throw them out.


do Photons have expiration dates?


----------



## lwilli201

I hope Directv gives us a couple of test channels like they did with D10. I remember watching Dirty Jobs in glorious MPEG4.


----------



## EaglePC

to hot now to watch tv,can't wait f0r winter agian


----------



## Ken984

Where is Bschneider when we need him .


----------



## raoul5788

curt8403 said:


> do Photons have expiration dates?


No, which makes them equal to AT&T minutes! :lol:


----------



## curt8403

raoul5788 said:


> No, which makes them equal to AT&T minutes! :lol:


but they do not roll over, because if they did they would have spin, which would make them quarks


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> but they do not roll over, because if they did they would have spin, which would make them quarks


Don't lepton to the wrong conclusion.


----------



## bobnielsen

grump said:


> I went to a state school. We couldn't afford photons.
> 
> Thanks for the clarifying my confusions.


Even Heisenberg was uncertain.


----------



## K4SMX

LameLefty said:


> All of that is true of course.
> 
> However the specific aspects I find interesting really are the implications that you cannot share command and control frequencies among spacecraft. I would think that in this 21st century age of digital communications, it would be a simple matter to have command and telemetry streams from multiple spacecraft sharing frequencies, but that each spacecraft would be able to sort out commands addressed to it specifically versus those addressed to its neighbors, and respond appropriately. If the command and data streams were encrypted and digitally-signed using a scheme like public-key crypto it would seem to be a trivial task to share frequencies this way.


Those 9 rocker switches in my garage door remotes work real well for that......


----------



## ziltomil

curt8403 said:


> technical technical technical, yes microwaves are made of Photons, but Photons are usually thought of as light particles, and of course you hear the word Photon, you think of Star Trek and Photon Torpedoes, (Light balls) I hope D11 does not become the deathstar.   :lol:


but microwaves are light particles...


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> All of that is true of course.
> 
> However the specific aspects I find interesting really are the implications that you cannot share command and control frequencies among spacecraft. I would think that in this 21st century age of digital communications, it would be a simple matter to have command and telemetry streams from multiple spacecraft sharing frequencies, but that each spacecraft would be able to sort out commands addressed to it specifically versus those addressed to its neighbors, and respond appropriately. If the command and data streams were encrypted and digitally-signed using a scheme like public-key crypto it would seem to be a trivial task to share frequencies this way.


what you are talking about seems to be very much like the Ethernet standard for computer networks, the problem is that the signals have a tendency to collide, and destroy each other. do you want all the spacecraft to try to land in your back yard due to lacking other instructions.


----------



## grump

curt8403 said:


> do you want all the spacecraft to try to land in your back yard due to lacking other instructions.


Can I keep them?


----------



## Mr.Pibb

ziltomil said:


> but microwaves are light particles...


Basically...yes. Or waves depending on how you want to look at it.


----------



## curt8403

Mr.Pibb said:


> Basically...yes. Or waves depending on how you want to look at it.


they certainly create light when they hit CDs or DVDs in sufficient strength


----------



## bonscott87

RAD said:


> You're a little slow today, http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1621843&postcount=2857


How can I be slow, I live blogged it. 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129710


----------



## P Smith

Update on signals from D11:
- three hours ago I saw in Ka-Lo RHCP (IF: 250...750 MHz) two signals; at 600 and 650 MHz(IF); 
those signal was I-shape and came from noise floor a couple times for 15-30 seconds, then went off for other 20 min of my observation windows.
Wobulation is that reason or it was temporary turning on, I don't know.


----------



## RAD

bonscott87 said:


> How can I be slow, I live blogged it.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129710


Still slow, the time stamp shows I beat you by 1 minute


----------



## HoTat2

P Smith said:


> Update on signals from D11:
> - three hours ago I saw in Ka-Lo RHCP (IF: 250...750 MHz) two signals; at 600 and 650 MHz(IF);
> those signal was I-shape and came from noise floor a couple times for 15-30 seconds, then went off for other 20 min of my observation windows.
> Wobulation is that reason or it was temporary turning on, I don't know.


Hey, signs of life on Ka B-band at 99W which is obviously D11  ;

Good news, even though brief for now. Keep us posted P. Smith.

BTW, anyone happen to know the LNBF local oscillator frequency for the Ka band signals?

Shouldn't it be 18.050 GHz?


----------



## P Smith

Count LOF1 Ka-Lo IF:250...750 MHz and LOF2 for reversed Ka-Hi IF:1650...2150 MHz.

I attempt to make video from my phone, but those signals didn't reappear again for 20 min.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Update on signals from D11:
> - three hours ago I saw in Ka-Lo RHCP (IF: 250...750 MHz) two signals; at 600 and 650 MHz(IF);
> those signal was I-shape and came from noise floor a couple times for 15-30 seconds, then went off for other 20 min of my observation windows.
> Wobulation is that reason or it was temporary turning on, I don't know.


Keep it up P. Awaiting signals from space!


----------



## smiddy

raoul5788 said:


> No, which makes them equal to AT&T minutes! :lol:


That is an interesting comparison considering they have been a step function and particles tend to be on a step function themselves, very interesting. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Update on signals from D11:
> - three hours ago I saw in Ka-Lo RHCP (IF: 250...750 MHz) two signals; at 600 and 650 MHz(IF);
> those signal was I-shape and came from noise floor a couple times for 15-30 seconds, then went off for other 20 min of my observation windows.
> Wobulation is that reason or it was temporary turning on, I don't know.


Awesome...now I'm tempted to get some equipment from work so I can see too.


----------



## litzdog911

P Smith said:


> Update on signals from D11:
> - three hours ago I saw in Ka-Lo RHCP (IF: 250...750 MHz) two signals; at 600 and 650 MHz(IF);
> those signal was I-shape and came from noise floor a couple times for 15-30 seconds, then went off for other 20 min of my observation windows.
> Wobulation is that reason or it was temporary turning on, I don't know.


First signal sighting! Way to go, PSmith!


----------



## Sixto

Some new comments in the HD thread relative to the use of D11 in the short-term: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1622637#post1622637

Didn't want to go off-topic here.


----------



## man_rob




----------



## smiddy

man_rob said:


>


Yeah...Contact is a great movie. What she is doing there is in effect what most of us are doing, but with far less complex means.


----------



## MIAMI1683

smiddy said:


> Yeah...Contact is a great movie. What she is doing there is in effect what most of us are doing, but with far less complex means.


Yea she has more money.


----------



## smiddy

MIAMI1683 said:


> Yea she has more money.


Well, when you put it like that...yeah! 

Though, it would be very kewl to have the ability from home to get signals and do the analysis right there...D11 would be a special thing to show a live web meeting of nothing more than the spectrum analyzer showing the signal. I know a lot of folks here would probably go to that web site and just stare for hours.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Keep it up P. Awaiting signals from space!


Today it was LHCP signals 550 MHz and 600MHz same shape, seems they come each 15 min. Pictures posted at SatGuys.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Pictures posted at SatGuys.


Geez, man. Don't be that way . . .


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> Geez, man. Don't be that way . . .


Well, let me explain again if you didn't read my posts - the site have very tight restriction: life time limit for upload pictures is 5 MB (!) and you can't delete old pictures. I exceeded it long time ago.

Let me try









OH ! It works.


----------



## bobnielsen

Looks like unmodulated carriers, but that is at least something.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Well, let me explain again if you didn't read my posts - the site have very tight restriction: life time limit for upload pictures is 5 MB (!) and you can't delete old pictures. I exceeded it long time ago.
> Let me try.
> OH ! It works.


Thanks.

We need to fund a 24x7 webcam of a D11 spectrum analyzer!

Very nice.


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> Thanks.
> 
> We need to fund a 24x7 webcam of a D11 spectrum analyzer!
> 
> Very nice.


----------



## Sixto

man_rob said:


>


that works.

just need that guy in P Smith's house


----------



## P Smith

bobnielsen said:


> Looks like unmodulated carriers, but that is at least something.


Or TT. 
I did try use AM/NFM/WFM/SSB/CW - none yeld audible result.


----------



## merchione

sorry to get off the subject a bit...but does anyone know a email address for d*? I want to CC them a email I'm sending to Time Warner Cable


----------



## Athlon646464

merchione said:


> sorry to get off the subject a bit...but does anyone know a email address for d*? I want to CC them a email I'm sending to Time Warner Cable


I don't have an email address, but the contact page at D*'s web site is:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageIF.jsp?assetId=P4560006


----------



## HoTat2

smiddy said:


> Yeah...Contact is a great movie. What she is doing there is in effect what most of us are doing, but with far less complex means.


You know;

Shortly after that movie debuted. I was listening to a long time radio astronomer (can't recall the name now unfortunately) who appeared on a local late night radio talk show here at the time. And worked on the SETI project for a number of years.

He totally laughed off this particular portion of the movie depicted here as pure fiction. Claiming that SETI or modern radio astronomy as a whole is never done that way.

You cannot simply decide to take break and get away from the monotony of the monitoring facilities. Take some kind of portable terminal out into the field near the receiving dishes. Then plug-in somewhere and listen audibly while you relax and meditate under the stars until you surreptitiously hit upon an ET signal or some other as Jodie Foster did here. :nono:

He said no aspect of SETI is ever done audibly. But the search of the particular EM bands for an ET transmission is almost entirely controlled by computers repeatedly scanning and logging hundreds of thousands of frequencies. Which then feed the results to various GUI visual displays.

OK, :backtotop


----------



## mosoccer

merchione said:


> sorry to get off the subject a bit...but does anyone know a email address for d*? I want to CC them a email I'm sending to Time Warner Cable


Not sure if it will work but when their customer service replies it comes from [email protected] worth a shot....


----------



## smiddy

HoTat2 said:


> You cannot simply decide to take break and get away from the monotony of the monitoring facilities. Take some kind of portable terminal out into the field near the receiving dishes. Then plug-in somewhere and listen audibly while you relax and meditate under the stars until you surreptitiously hit upon an ET signal or some other as Jodie Foster did here. :nono:


Yeah, but for good film effect, it was an awesome scene none the less.



HoTat2 said:


> He said no aspect of SETI is ever done audibly. But the search of the particular EM bands for an ET transmission is almost entirely controlled by computers repeatedly scanning and logging hundreds of thousands of frequencies. Which then feed the results to various GUI visual displays.


Yes, it takes the personality out of the whole thing, abstracts it. It is done with Fourier analysis, though I wonder if audible language looks repititive enough to be considered coherent (baseband wise)...



HoTat2 said:


> OK, :backtotop


Ah man, I was having fun talking analogics...


----------



## merchione

Athlon646464 said:


> I don't have an email address, but the contact page at D*'s web site......


I guess I can copy and paste


----------



## merchione

mosoccer said:


> Not sure if it will work but when their customer service replies it comes from [email protected] worth a shot....


Thanks!


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Yes, it takes the personality out of the whole thing, abstracts it. It is done with Fourier analysis, though I wonder if audible language looks repititive enough to be considered coherent (baseband wise)...


You know, I was reading a blurb somewhere that said a truly advanced civilization might well communicate through modulated neutrinos instead of EM. Considering how low-powered most of _our_ EM comm is these days and therefore don't carry far into space, and how well neutrinos propogate through matter (such as, for instance, interstellar dust and gas), that theory might have merit.


----------



## carl6

HoTat2 said:


> He totally laughed off this particular portion of the movie depicted here as pure fiction.


That is so true for so many things in so many movies. Having a little subject matter expertise can spoil a lot if you let it. But you can also sit back, relax and enjoy when you know it's fiction anyway.

Sorry to continue the off-topic discussion, now...

:backtotop


----------



## HoTat2

LameLefty said:


> You know, I was reading a blurb somewhere that said a truly advanced civilization might well communicate through modulated neutrinos instead of EM. Considering how low-powered most of _our_ EM comm is these days and therefore don't carry far into space, and how well neutrinos propogate through matter (such as, for instance, interstellar dust and gas), that theory might have merit.


And even it turns out not to have merit. Remember there is still the prospect of "sub-space" radio which can travel faster than the speed of light by somehow propagating outside the normal space-time continuum


----------



## bobnielsen

HoTat2 said:


> You know;
> 
> Shortly after that movie debuted. I was listening to a long time radio astronomer (can't recall the name now unfortunately) who appeared on a local late night radio talk show here at the time. And worked on the SETI project for a number of years.
> 
> He totally laughed off this particular portion of the movie depicted here as pure fiction. Claiming that SETI or modern radio astronomy as a whole is never done that way.
> 
> You cannot simply decide to take break and get away from the monotony of the monitoring facilities. Take some kind of portable terminal out into the field near the receiving dishes. Then plug-in somewhere and listen audibly while you relax and meditate under the stars until you surreptitiously hit upon an ET signal or some other as Jodie Foster did here. :nono:
> 
> He said no aspect of SETI is ever done audibly. But the search of the particular EM bands for an ET transmission is almost entirely controlled by computers repeatedly scanning and logging hundreds of thousands of frequencies. Which then feed the results to various GUI visual displays.
> 
> OK, :backtotop


If anyone is interested in putting their spare computer cycles to work, check out Seti At Home.


----------



## P Smith

:backtotop
Umm, somebody told bring SA from work and verify my observations.


----------



## HoTat2

carl6 said:


> That is so true for so many things in so many movies. Having a little subject matter expertise can spoil a lot if you let it. But you can also sit back, relax and enjoy when you know it's fiction anyway.
> 
> Sorry to continue the off-topic discussion, now...
> 
> :backtotop


Yeah that's true;

The ironic thing is when Hollywood produces these types of movies that deal with the sciences. A lot of scientists and engineers who really know the truth about it may actually "enjoy" the picture. But usually as a comedy with maybe great special effects. And not as a drama as the producers intend.

And they will essentially laugh their way in mockery throughout the picture.

I will never forget watching a scene on the local news where some of the seismologists here at Caltech were really laughing, rocking, and rolling through a special screening of the TV mini-series disaster drama "10.0" put on for them.

Though they did commend the series for nice special effects.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> :backtotop
> Umm, somebody told bring SA from work and verify my observations.


yep, someone should bring home an engineering card as well


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> yep, someone should bring home an engineering card as well


I wouldn't [rush]  - wait well before we will see real tpn signals on SA screen.


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Evening Folks, just a quick question and it may already have been answered but can't locate it anywhere. If you don't have the (c) and (s) next to I believe 103, is that something I should be concerned about. Don't want to miss out on the first signal sent from D11!!!


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Evening Folks, just a quick question and it may already have been answered but can't locate it anywhere. If you don't have the (c) and (s) next to I believe 103, is that something I should be concerned about. Don't want to miss out on the first signal sent from D11!!!


I assume you have an H20 or H21 and you see SAT's 103b, 103a, and 99b?

If so it is because they have not be updated yet like the HR20/21's.


----------



## bobnielsen

You should have both of those for 103, since that is where Directv 10 is located. At this time 99 should only have (s), but (c) may show up soon. Some receiver models may still show (a) and (b), rather than (c) and (s).


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Thank you guys. You are correct I do have the H20. Will soon be going to the local BB to pick up a H21 in the next day or so. Thanks again.


----------



## PoitNarf

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> Thank you guys. You are correct I do have the H20. Will soon be going to the local BB to pick up a H21 in the next day or so. Thanks again.


I hope you're not going to buy it just to replace your current H20 which will work fine with D11...


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

PoitNarf said:


> I hope you're not going to buy it just to replace your current H20 which will work fine with D11...


No Sir, Uncle Sam has graciously sent me back some of my hard earned money and the wife has graciously allowed me to go ahead and spend some of it on a HR21.


----------



## Blurayfan

DirecTV-11 (TLE88)
1 32729U 08013A 08150.44683428 -.00000110 00000-0 00000+0 0 889
2 32729 000.0413 286.6697 0000198 116.3520 265.7639 01.00270830 822

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC) 05-29-2008 10:43:26
Orbit # at Epoch	82
Inclination 0.041
RA of A. Node 286.669
Eccentricity 0.0000198
Argument of Perigee	116.352
Revs per day 01.00270830
Period 24h 01m 08s (1441.13 min)
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	88 / 0 day(s)


----------



## HDTVFreak07

HOAGIEHEAD said:


> No Sir, Uncle Sam has graciously sent me back some of my hard earned money and the wife has graciously allowed me to go ahead and spend some of it on a HR21.


OHHH!!! Your post before last, you said "H21" but now you're saying you're going to get a DVR. I guess that's why you confused the many of us as to why you're going to replace H20 with H21.


----------



## Sixto

DVDKingdom said:


> DirecTV-11 (TLE88) ...


yep, there'll continue to be lots of TLE's while we're parked at 99.4°. Next TLE update will be when we see the move to 99.225° start.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> You know, I was reading a blurb somewhere that said a truly advanced civilization might well communicate through modulated neutrinos instead of EM. Considering how low-powered most of _our_ EM comm is these days and therefore don't carry far into space, and how well neutrinos propogate through matter (such as, for instance, interstellar dust and gas), that theory might have merit.


It is probably naive to think that the only form of communicating over long distances is via RF energy. As you highlight, we're dropping energy output due to spread spectrum. Simple inverse square law spreading and noise constants per bandwidth forces a certain limitation on distance too, given that form of technology. Another method of doing long distnace communication is going to have to emerge that will be affective over light year distances one day and then at what speed? Sending a packetize molecular message, spot beamed (so to speak) towards a location (line of sight, baring gravity or some other interferer) seems doable off the top of my head, though I foresee some challenges.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> It is probably naive to think that the only form of communicating over long distances is via RF energy.


I more of the "2 Tin cans with a string" speed... 

In any case....D11 is indeed quite a unit, and the countdown to more HD begins....

Hopefully the next 20+ days of testing result in a clear "All systems GO"...or else "All systems are Nominal". :lol:


----------



## P Smith

Looks like it time to abandon the thread ( too much noise non related to D11  ) 
and create new one: "*D11 signals activity*".


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Looks like it time to abandon the thread ( too much noise non related to D11  )
> and create new one: "*D11 signals activity*".


I would agree, except that it should be titled *D11 signs of life*
or create a new OT thread for communications discussions


----------



## smiddy

Sorry guys!

Has there been any activity on D11 to speak of?


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> Sorry guys!
> 
> Has there been any activity on D11 to speak of?


just some short term test signals.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Sorry guys!
> 
> Has there been any activity on D11 to speak of?


Just sittin parked and pretty at 99.4°.


----------



## litzdog911

smiddy said:


> Sorry guys!
> 
> Has there been any activity on D11 to speak of?


PSmith posted photos of spectrum analyzer displays here ....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129866

It's alive!


----------



## crashHD

P Smith said:


> Looks like it time to abandon the thread ( too much noise non related to D11  )
> and create new one: "*D11 signals activity*".


Still a little early for that.


Earl Bonovich said:


> Now that the SeaLaunch segment is complete...
> 
> Let's restart the discussion here... and continue tracking D11 until we see the "signal strength" on our boxes for 99 #2


----------



## LameLefty

crashHD said:


> Still a little early for that.


Nope. P Smith has already seen test signals.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Looks like it time to abandon the thread ( too much noise non related to D11  )
> and create new one: "*D11 signals activity*".





curt8403 said:


> I would agree, except that it should be titled *D11 signs of life*
> or create a new OT thread for communications discussions


Either / or......


----------



## Paul A

We need a "D11 anticipation and other posts" thread, like we had with D10. It gave some of us non-techies a chance to go blow off some steam while we waited for D10 to light up and not interfere with the techies on the sat tracking thread.

Paul


----------



## P Smith

Paul A said:


> We need a "D11 anticipation and other posts" thread, like we had with D10. It gave some of us non-techies a chance to go blow off some steam while we waited for D10 to light up and not interfere with the techies on the sat tracking thread.
> 
> Paul


NP, so use this thread for that.


----------



## crashHD

LameLefty said:


> Nope. P Smith has already seen test signals.


Yeah, but that was a spectrum analyzer. Should it really count before its the signal meter on a receiver?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

crashHD said:


> Yeah, but that was a spectrum analyzer. Should it really count before its the signal meter on a receiver?


He has a point....


----------



## litzdog911

crashHD said:


> Yeah, but that was a spectrum analyzer. Should it really count before its the signal meter on a receiver?


Sure it should count. Just because our Receivers have not yet been updated to display the new satellite's transponders doesn't mean they're not there. Fact is, testing has begun. Hopefully soon our equipment will be updated so that you don't need a spectrum analyzer to see the new signals.


----------



## Jeremy W

litzdog911 said:


> Just because our Receivers have not yet been updated to display the new satellite's transponders doesn't mean they're not there.


From what the spectrum analyzer is showing, it *does *mean they're not there. Even if DirecTV turned on the new transponders on our receivers, they wouldn't register these unmodulated signals. The "signal strength" on our receivers is simply measuring the bit-error rate of the signal, which can't be measured without forward error correction, which can't exist without a modulated signal.


----------



## HoTat2

crashHD said:


> Yeah, but that was a spectrum analyzer. Should it really count before its the signal meter on a receiver?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> He has a point....


Yes;

This was actually one of my concerns as well with necessarily reading too much into P. Smith's SA readings on B-band here. For instance, unless their "on-off" intermittent nature is a clue to testing specifically related to D11. There is another possible source for B-band emissions at 99W. "Spaceway 2," since the Spaceway satellites were actually retrofitted with a B-band subsystem used for signal back-hauling operations (the "Potter Horn" antenna retrofit once mentioned by Tom Robertson on another thread. However, I can no longer find the pinned sticky for it).

So yes, the appearance of 99(c) (or "a" for the older nomenclature) on the IRD's signal strength screens will obviously be the surest tell-all sign of D11's activity.


----------



## litzdog911

Jeremy W said:


> From what the spectrum analyzer is showing, it *does *mean they're not there. Even if DirecTV turned on the new transponders on our receivers, they wouldn't register these unmodulated signals. The "signal strength" on our receivers is simply measuring the bit-error rate of the signal, which can't be measured without forward error correction, which can't exist without a modulated signal.


But PSmith has reported seeing wideband signals as well, although intermittently. That would suggest that modulated transponders are being tested.


----------



## Jeremy W

litzdog911 said:


> But PSmith has reported seeing wideband signals as well, although intermittently. That would suggest that modulated transponders are being tested.


I don't quite understand how it would suggest that. A wideband signal doesn't necessarily mean a modulated signal.


----------



## bobnielsen

Jeremy W said:


> I don't quite understand how it would suggest that. A wideband signal doesn't necessarily mean a modulated signal.


It wouldn't have any bandwidth if it were just an unmodulated carrier. Of course, having modulation doesn't necessarily imply that the receiver could demodulate it.


----------



## ntwrkd

Where'd everyone go?:whatdidid


----------



## Ed Campbell

We're all watching the Weather Channel.


----------



## LameLefty

ntwrkd said:


> Where'd everyone go?:whatdidid


We're here but there's nothing new to report yet. Soon though . . .


----------



## davemayo

Ed Campbell said:


> We're all watching the Weather Channel.


I was up nearly half the night waiting for the hockey game to end...and watching the Weather Channel.


----------



## MIMOTech

I think that they can do lots of testing at low power. Low enough that the gain in the consumer RX system cannot decode the signal. They have the bigger dishes needed to see the low power signal. They can do much testing and verification. Also I think it takes them a while to turn up the amps. They have to get them up to temp slowly I would imagine. Avoiding therma shock is probably very high on their list.


----------



## HoTat2

ntwrkd said:


> Where'd everyone go?:whatdidid





LameLefty said:


> We're here but there's nothing new to report yet. Soon though . . .


Another reason for the recent silence on this thread is that all we could really do at this point during D11's testing and evaluation phase is rely on P. Smith's spectrum analyzer signal sightings.

But, he was always very sensitive to any off-topic deviations which took place on this lengthy thread during the many lulls in getting new information on D11's progress.

And started another one here for the SA discussions:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129866


----------



## Hdhead

How soon do you think all the locals will be off-loaded from 72.5 to the new sats? Can't wait to take a hammer to that second dish!


----------



## curt8403

Hdhead said:


> How soon do you think all the locals will be off-loaded from 72.5 to the new sats? Can't wait to take a hammer to that second dish!


perhaps in a year or less, and after you get done with the hammer, take the battered dish to a recycler


----------



## bruinfever

Man this wait is killing me............


----------



## Azdeadwood

bruinfever said:


> Man this wait is killing me............


It will be at least 2 months before anything happens and if they have any problems during testing I would expect it to be September before it is up.

Besides these channels won't be as impressive as the ones they activated at the end of last year.


----------



## tuff bob

Azdeadwood said:


> Besides these channels won't be as impressive as the ones they activated at the end of last year.


I disagree, we got ESPN and ESPN2 and ESPNU still missing on MPEG4


----------



## cwdonahue

If I can get all of my College Season Pass games in HD this season, those channels will be impressive to me!


----------



## jefbal99

cwdonahue said:


> If I can get all of my College Season Pass games in HD this season, those channels will be impressive to me!


That would take them all being produced in HD, which prolly won't happen.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Don't forget that we should also get the most if not rest of premiums in HD.


----------



## billgrayny

Also don't forget all of us here in the hinterlands who can't receive OTA due to distance or topography. And who can't get waivers for major network's HD.

We just want to get the major networks in HD from our "local" providers - here's hoping that D11 will get us there.

From the Syracuse, NY DMA - ever hopeful.


----------



## Inches

bruinfever said:


> Man this wait is killing me............


Patience Grasshopper. :slowgrin:


----------



## stepck

billgrayny said:


> Also don't forget all of us here in the hinterlands who can't receive OTA due to distance or topography. And who can't get waivers for major network's HD.
> 
> We just want to get the major networks in HD from our "local" providers - here's hoping that D11 will get us there.
> 
> From the Syracuse, NY DMA - ever hopeful.


From the Roanoke - Lynchburg, VA DMA. If they'd just go in DMA order, we'd be number 10 of the remaining DMAs without HD locals. However, if they follow the SD rollout order, I'll be waiting for a long time.


----------



## bluemoon737

stepck said:


> From the Roanoke - Lynchburg, VA DMA. If they'd just go in DMA order, we'd be number 10 of the remaining DMAs without HD locals. However, if they follow the SD rollout order, I'll be waiting for a long time.


Try same state different city...Norfolk/Va Beach is also dying for HD locals!!! I haven't looked lately, but I know we are way up the DMA food chain without HD locals.


----------



## stepck

bluemoon737 said:


> Try same state different city...Norfolk/Va Beach is also dying for HD locals!!! I haven't looked lately, but I know we are way up the DMA food chain without HD locals.


You're definitely at the top of the list in terms of DMA size. However, I suspect that terrain in the VA Beach area supports OTA HD reception.

Here, I'm 13 miles from the transmitter, and can't receive HD signals.


----------



## inkahauts

Azdeadwood said:


> It will be at least 2 months before anything happens and if they have any problems during testing I would expect it to be September before it is up.
> 
> Besides these channels won't be as impressive as the ones they activated at the end of last year.


What on earth makes you think it will be 2 months if nothing goes wrong. They asked for 30 days of testing, which will be over before the end of june. Then it will take a couple days to move it to its final position. I say we will have signal by the first or second week of July, right in time to see Encore launch their first HD channel....


----------



## DChristmann

jefbal99 said:


> That would take them all being produced in HD, which prolly won't happen.


Frankly, I would gladly settle for the ABC HD games' being in Gameplan this year, and not just the SD feeds of the same games.


----------



## Paul A

bring on more HBO channels in HD!!!!


----------



## merchione

billgrayny said:


> Also don't forget all of us here in the hinterlands who can't receive OTA due to distance or topography. And who can't get waivers for major network's HD.
> 
> We just want to get the major networks in HD from our "local" providers - here's hoping that D11 will get us there.
> 
> From the Syracuse, NY DMA - ever hopeful.


EL PASO, TX(98th DMA 28th "in line") HOPEFULL TOO!


----------



## VARTV

stepck said:


> You're definitely at the top of the list in terms of DMA size. However, I suspect that terrain in the VA Beach area supports OTA HD reception.
> 
> Here, I'm 13 miles from the transmitter, and can't receive HD signals.


Probably so...


----------



## VARTV

inkahauts said:


> What on earth makes you think it will be 2 months if nothing goes wrong. They asked for 30 days of testing, which will be over before the end of june. Then it will take a couple days to move it to its final position. I say we will have signal by the first or second week of July, right in time to see Encore launch their first HD channel....


All the HBO/MAX feeds are going HD too by the end of June. SHO recently made an announcemnet that more of their channels will be doing HD very soon...


----------



## LameLefty

Personally, I'm waiting for HBO Signature in HD.


----------



## d max82

LameLefty said:


> Personally, I'm waiting for HBO Signature in HD.


And I'm still waiting for channel 591-1 to appear in the guide.


----------



## LameLefty

d max82 said:


> And I'm still waiting for channel 591-1 to appear in the guide.


Get a Blu-Ray player; it'll save you money in the long run. 

(Not that I'd know anything about that . . . )


----------



## steveken

What is 591-1


----------



## man_rob

steveken said:


> What is 591-1


It's one of them there naughty channels.


----------



## steveken

oh, duh. I haven't ever paid for one of the other ones. I tried playboy for a couple months many years ago.


----------



## mpar1

bluemoon737 said:


> Try same state different city...Norfolk/Va Beach is also dying for HD locals!!! I haven't looked lately, but I know we are way up the DMA food chain without HD locals.


Another Virginian here. Waiting for Richmond HD locals to be added.


----------



## PoitNarf

Guess we're in the calm before the storm now eh? Anyone see any new activity from D11 yet?


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> Guess we're in the calm before the storm now eh? Anyone see any new activity from D11 yet?


Yep, lots of "calm" 

Been rock solid at 99.4 geostationary ...


----------



## ncriley

Can anyone tell me why the testing of D11 has to take place at a different orbital location than when it goes live? It seems a little weird to launch something up there and move it to within a small distance of where it is going to end up, test it and then move it to the final location. Why not just test from where it is going to reside?


----------



## curt8403

ncriley said:


> Can anyone tell me why the testing of D11 has to take place at a different orbital location than when it goes live? It seems a little weird to launch something up there and move it to within a small distance of where it is going to end up, test it and then move it to the final location. Why not just test from where it is going to reside?


I think it might be a bit easier to get the test signals from 99.4 than 99.2 which is closer to the other satellite at 99


----------



## MIAMI1683

ncriley said:


> Can anyone tell me why the testing of D11 has to take place at a different orbital location than when it goes live? It seems a little weird to launch something up there and move it to within a small distance of where it is going to end up, test it and then move it to the final location. Why not just test from where it is going to reside?


 Or maybe it's so we dont see the siganls too. I think they tell our IRD's when, but if it were there (99.2) and someone hit the wrong switch. Then everyone would see that. :eek2:


----------



## PoitNarf

Having D11 further away from the other DirecTV satellite at 99 during testing lessens any interference that they may experience during their tests.


----------



## bobnielsen

MIAMI1683 said:


> Or maybe it's so we dont see the siganls too. I think they tell our IRD's when, but if it were there (99.2) and someone hit the wrong switch. Then everyone would see that. :eek2:


The dish beamwidth is over 1 degree at Ka band, so it wouldn't know the difference between 99.2 and 99.4. I suspect that PoitNarf's answer is correct.


----------



## cartrivision

VARTV said:


> All the HBO/MAX feeds are going HD too by the end of June.


That's correct, but these ones which DirecTV currently doesn't carry are already available from HBO in HD.....

HBO2 East
HBO2 West
HBO Signature East
HBO Signature West
MoreMAX East
MoreMAX West
HBO Family East
HBO Family West
HBO Zone East
HBO Zone West
ActionMAX East
ActionMAX West
5StarMAX East
HBO Comedy East
HBO Comedy West

Additionally, these will be available from HBO in HD at the end of June......

HBO Latino East
HBO Latino West
ThrillerMAX East
ThrillerMAX West
WMAX East
@MAX East
OuterMAX East


----------



## cartrivision

bobnielsen said:


> The dish beamwidth is over 1 degree at Ka band, so it wouldn't know the difference between 99.2 and 99.4. I suspect that PoitNarf's answer is correct.


If the beamwidth is over 1 degree, then shifting it by .2 degrees isn't going to do much to lessen any interference from the other satellite at 99. If that was the reason, I would think that they would test it at least 2 degrees away.


----------



## HoTat2

cartrivision said:


> If the beamwidth is over 1 degree, then shifting it by .2 degrees isn't going to do much to lessen any interference from the other satellite at 99. If that was the reason, I would think that they would test it at least 2 degrees away.


And considering that the "other satellite" Spaceway 2 uses "A-band" (except for the possibility of some special purpose backhauling on it's B-band Potter Horn subsystem) and D11 operates on "B-band." Why should there be any mutual interference if D11 were close to Spaceway 2 during it's testing and evaluation?


----------



## curt8403

HoTat2 said:


> And considering that the "other satellite" Spaceway 2 uses "A-band" (except for the possibility of some special purpose backhauling on it's B-band Potter Horn subsystem) and D11 operates on "B-band." Why should there be any mutual interference if D11 were close to Spaceway 2 during it's testing and evaluation?


Potter Horn Subsystem? does it summon Hairy Potter (A bear planting flowers) or Harry Potter


----------



## HoTat2

curt8403 said:


> Potter Horn Subsystem? does it summon Hairy Potter (A bear planting flowers) or Harry Potter


That was the name ("Potter Horn" antenna) Tom Robertson listed it as. Spaceway 1/2 were originally designed to operate exclusively on Ka "A-band." However at some later point the original design was retrofitted include a special "B-band" package for non-broadcast use, which utilized a "Potter Horn" antenna (whatever that is) for signal backhauling purposes.

Unfortunately Tom's sticky thread noting this has been removed for some reason.


----------



## Jeremy W

d max82 said:


> And I'm still waiting for channel 591-1 to appear in the guide.


It would just be 591, not 591-1.


----------



## curt8403

HoTat2 said:


> That was the name ("Potter Horn" antenna) Tom Robertson listed it as. Spaceway 1/2 were originally designed to operate exclusively on Ka "A-band." However at some later point the original design was retrofitted include a special "B-band" package for non-broadcast use, which utilized a "Potter Horn" antenna (whatever that is) for signal backhauling purposes.
> 
> Unfortunately Tom's sticky thread noting this has been removed for some reason.


ok. just being obtuse. I think I was backhauled today, check the section on Ants in the OT.


----------



## bluemoon737

stepck said:


> You're definitely at the top of the list in terms of DMA size. However, I suspect that terrain in the VA Beach area supports OTA HD reception.
> 
> Here, I'm 13 miles from the transmitter, and can't receive HD signals.


You have a point there...OTA is usually pretty good here with only a few drop outs from time to time due to multipath.


----------



## Tom Robertson

HoTat2 said:


> That was the name ("Potter Horn" antenna) Tom Robertson listed it as. Spaceway 1/2 were originally designed to operate exclusively on Ka "A-band." However at some later point the original design was retrofitted include a special "B-band" package for non-broadcast use, which utilized a "Potter Horn" antenna (whatever that is) for signal backhauling purposes.
> 
> Unfortunately Tom's sticky thread noting this has been removed for some reason.


My thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 has been moved (and left stickied) to the DIRECTV Information forum.

Potter Horn is a simple waveguide antenna. (It looks simple, but I've read the calculations are rather complex.) P.D. Potter first described it in 1963.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

PoitNarf said:


> Having D11 further away from the other DirecTV satellite at 99 during testing lessens any interference that they may experience during their tests.


Given the penalty for interfering with an existing satellite, they're going to be very cautious.


----------



## Davenlr

Nothing the consumer has can differentiate .2 degrees, but one of you tech/ussb guys should know, what's the -3db beamwidth of their big uplink dishes? Can it differentiate .2 degrees?


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> Given the penalty for interfering with an existing satellite, they're going to be very cautious.


There would be no "penalty" for interfering with your own satellite other than pissing off your own customers if you interrupted the program they were expecting to watch.


----------



## harsh

cartrivision said:


> There would be no "penalty" for interfering with your own satellite other than pissing off your own customers if you interrupted the program they were expecting to watch.


If you assumed that, you would be wrong. Somewhere in all of the documentation at the FCC, there is mention of some major forfeiture of broadcast rights for interference.


----------



## crashHD

harsh said:


> If you assumed that, you would be wrong. Somewhere in all of the documentation at the FCC, there is mention of some major forfeiture of broadcast rights for interference.


wow...just incase you need to be told not to shoot yourself in the foot...there it is


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> If you assumed that, you would be wrong. Somewhere in all of the documentation at the FCC, there is mention of some major forfeiture of broadcast rights for interference.


Yeah, I'm sure DirecTV is going to report themselves to the FCC for interfering with their own satellite.


----------



## bakers12

I fed the latest TLE into Orbitron


Code:


DIRECTV 11 
1 32729U 08013A   08159.12348831 -.00000130  00000-0  10000-3 0   976
2 32729 000.0210 305.6928 0000342 346.4023 268.7675 01.00269070   918

That gives me a longitude of 99.4708° W right now, which is over the 0.05° tolerance the FCC allows. So if the FCC still allows testing at 99.4°W, D11 has made a strange-looking move.


----------



## K4SMX

stepck said:


> ......Here, I'm 13 miles from the transmitter, and can't receive HD signals.


With the Tidewater topography, how can that be? You need to start a thread on that issue or PM me.


----------



## D*HR-20

K4SMX said:


> With the Tidewater topography, how can that be? You need to start a thread on that issue or PM me.


That guy isn't from the Norfolk area. He's from Blacksburg (where Virginia Tech is). He was just agreeing Norfolk is the highest DMA without LiL after saying he hopes the Roanoke locals come soon after D11 lights up.


----------



## koolbrz2

D*HR-20 said:


> That guy isn't from the Norfolk area. He's from Blacksburg (where Virginia Tech is). He was just agreeing Norfolk is the highest DMA without LiL after saying he hopes the Roanoke locals come soon after D11 lights up.


You can't tell me that there is NOBODY with the knowledge of whether or not the Norfolk locals are to be lit-up on D11 AND WHEN !!
So why is this not common knowledge instead of being treated like the world's biggest secret ??


----------



## HarleyD

koolbrz2 said:


> You can't tell me that there is NOBODY with the knowledge of whether or not the Norfolk locals are to be lit-up on D11 AND WHEN !!
> So why is this not common knowledge instead of being treated like the world's biggest secret ??


There's nobody _here_ with that knowledge.

I imagine there's folks at DirecTV that know when they _want_ to light them up, but they aren't saying. (Mabye they don't give a Norfolk :hurah: ) Actually though it seems to be more of a case of if you don't make your plans common knowledge, then folks can't complain when/if you change them.

That seems to be the approach DirecTV is taking. Saying nothing until they actully turn them on. The channels will probably precede the announcement if history is any indicator. But the underlying philosophy appears to be "You can't be accused of not keeping promises if you don't make any".

And it's not just Norfolk. All the DMAs that aren't yet lit up are asking the same questions.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Yep, they probably aren't going to accounce anything till they actually do it. Look back at the HD locals that they promised to light up by the end of 2006. They still haven't lit all those up yet.


----------



## HarleyD

kevinwmsn said:


> Yep, they probably aren't going to accounce anything till they actually do it. Look back at the HD locals that they promised to light up by the end of 2006. They still haven't lit all those up yet.


That foot-in-mouth situation is probably the best reason they have for being tight lipped now. They set expectations and then failed to deliver on them. That made people madder than if they had said nothing at all.


----------



## mbuser

bakers12 said:


> I fed the latest TLE into Orbitron
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A   08159.12348831 -.00000130  00000-0  10000-3 0   976
> 2 32729 000.0210 305.6928 0000342 346.4023 268.7675 01.00269070   918
> 
> That gives me a longitude of 99.4708° W right now, which is over the 0.05° tolerance the FCC allows. So if the FCC still allows testing at 99.4°W, D11 has made a strange-looking move.


So, is this an indication that they're ready to move it to its final position? Would they need to move it away a bit then move it back the other way?


----------



## Ed Campbell

koolbrz2 said:


> You can't tell me that...


Starting a sentence in that manner deserves to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Therefore, I won't tell you.


----------



## Ken984

mbuser said:


> So, is this an indication that they're ready to move it to its final position? Would they need to move it away a bit then move it back the other way?


It doesn't really mean anything, they are at the testing slot, that is all we know. If we are lucky Bschneider will pop in and tell us when real channels are up for testing.


----------



## P Smith

Ken984 said:


> It doesn't really mean anything, they are at the testing slot, that is all we know. If we are lucky Bschneider will pop in and tell us when real channels are up for testing.


It doesn't matter who will pop up - there are no useful signals for any DVR/IRD out there.


----------



## Jeremy W

Ken984 said:


> If we are lucky Bschneider will pop in and tell us when real channels are up for testing.


When Bschneider gave us the channels on D10, they were just placeholders. There was no audio or video on any of the channels. Some of the very first true test channels were in the clear, and announced on this site.


----------



## Grydlok

HarleyD said:


> There's nobody _here_ with that knowledge.
> 
> I imagine there's folks at DirecTV that know when they _want_ to light them up, but they aren't saying. (Mabye they don't give a Norfolk :hurah: ) Actually though it seems to be more of a case of if you don't make your plans common knowledge, then folks can't complain when/if you change them.
> 
> That seems to be the approach DirecTV is taking. Saying nothing until they actully turn them on. The channels will probably precede the announcement if history is any indicator. But the underlying philosophy appears to be "You can't be accused of not keeping promises if you don't make any".
> 
> And it's not just Norfolk. All the DMAs that aren't yet lit up are asking the same questions.


A snow ball playing poker in hell.


----------



## RAD

On the Deutsche Bank call today the D* CFO said D11 coming online in 3rd quarter which is what Chase said on his call a couple weeks ago.


----------



## TechMan1959

3rd quarter starts july 1


----------



## RAD

TechMan1959 said:


> 3rd quarter starts july 1


Yea, but it also ends on September 30th, and when D11 first went up D* was saying September for going active. Sure hope it doesn't take until September to go active though.


----------



## P Smith

After week of trying to catch any activity on the D-11 sat, I start worried if there everything OK with it.

It's look strange for me - after very low activity - observed very short bursts of few non-modulated signals - the sat transponders still 'cold' what seems to me unusual.
Other sats keep 'hot' many transponder with no muxes at all perhaps by regulation of TWTA specs.
I don't like the silence - IMO, D-11 must already have fully charged batteries ( is it OK with solar panels ? is charging control circuit good too ?), should lite on all tpns (with or without modulation ); in the mode the sat should stay for few day to allow observe readiness of the most important part of his mission.

I don't like to see the 'cold turkey' in the sky!


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> After week of trying to catch any activity on the D-11 sat, I start worried if there everything OK with it.


The CFO wouldn't have reiterated "3rd quarter" *today* if they had discovered major problems that would prevent the satellite from functioning.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Think they'll have it fired up before the Olympics start?


----------



## P Smith

theratpatrol said:


> Think they'll have it fired up before the Olympics start?


Nope, the process require tpns to be ready for long before real programs transmission.


----------



## Indiana627

theratpatrol said:


> Think they'll have it fired up before the Olympics start?


Maybe that's how they'll light the Olympic cauldron - D11 will shoot a special laser beam down from orbit! :lol:


----------



## grump

Indiana627 said:


> Maybe that's how they'll light the Olympic cauldron - D11 will shoot a special laser beam down from orbit! :lol:


Can't. It's not Line of Site.


----------



## man_rob

grump said:


> Can't. It's not Line of Site.


They can bounce it off of the wayward AMC-14.

Some DirecTV execs, in a conference call did mention the addition of new HD in August. I believe somewhere in this thread is the information.


----------



## mitoca

P Smith said:


> Nope, the process require tpns to be ready for long before real programs transmission.


Not sure why not. Opening ceremonies are on August 8th. That allows for much more time that they took with D10. Though "the" date I have heard is August 13th.


----------



## P Smith

I start thinking if there are some [default] FCC rules what does not allow to run TWTA tests at full power when a sat located temporary outside designated point.


----------



## lance30276

P Smith said:


> I start thinking if there are some [default] FCC rules what does not allow to run TWTA tests at full power when a sat located temporary outside designated point.


how does this activity or lack ther-of compare to D-10?


----------



## P Smith

I don't know - missed that period.


----------



## Indiana627

grump said:


> Can't. It's not Line of Site.


A minor technicality.


----------



## PoitNarf

I'm only going to start to panic if they don't start moving D11 to it's final orbital slot until the very end of the FCC's 30 testing period.


----------



## bakers12

When I looked last night, D11 was at 99.5 degrees, in a very circular orbit and with a period that should keep it there. Has anybody looked at it today? It's still too far out of its test slot to fire up the TWTAs if it's at 99.5.


----------



## P Smith

So, when exactly the 30 days period will expire ?


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> So, when exactly the 30 days period will expire ?


I believe the test period started on May 25, so June 24 would be the expiration date.


----------



## P Smith

Lefty, any idea what is behind the cold testing D-11 ?


----------



## ddobson

grump said:


> Can't. It's not Line of Site.


Obviously you haven't read about the new CSB's on D11. Curve Spotbeam Technology means they can put the beam anywhere they want! Can even get to the olympics.... :grin:

:nono2: :eek2:


----------



## curt8403

ddobson said:


> Obviously you haven't read about the new CSB's on D11. Curve Spotbeam Technology means they can put the beam anywhere they want! Can even get to the olympics.... :grin:
> 
> :nono2: :eek2:


Graviton waves  but the new Curve Spotbeam Technology requires a Ferometal drive, with an ejectable core.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Lefty, any idea what is behind the cold testing D-11 ?


Nope, not a clue. I don't have any idea how the broadcasting systems are calibrated and tested (other than the most vague notions based on my 20 year old undergraduate electrical engineering and physics classes).


----------



## Sixto

bakers12 said:


> When I looked last night, D11 was at 99.5 degrees, in a very circular orbit and with a period that should keep it there. Has anybody looked at it today? It's still too far out of its test slot to fire up the TWTAs if it's at 99.5.


I noticed that 99.5 as well ... just doesn't seem right ... there's been a little drift day-by-day ... then noticed the 99.5 yesterday ... it's been drifting .01 every day or so ...


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I believe the test period started on May 25, so June 24 would be the expiration date.


And there have not yet been any new FCC Filings (which is good) ... knock on wood ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> I noticed that 99.5 as well ... just doesn't seem right ... there's been a little drift day-by-day ... then noticed the 99.5 yesterday ... it's been drifting .01 every day or so ...


I haven't looked, but how old is the TLE?


----------



## bakers12

LameLefty said:


> I haven't looked, but how old is the TLE?


The TLE is from the afternoon of the 8th (Sunday). At this time, it's still current. Revs per day are 1.00269 so it's fairly still, tiny bit slow/West drift. What do you bet this bird is in position next week? Reminds me of D10 the way it's moving.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I haven't looked, but how old is the TLE?


Hey Lefty. TLE 99 is time stamped after TLE 100. #99 is 6/9 (Mon) mid-day. Orbitron shows currently at 99.51. Every day it's been moving wrong way at ~.01.


----------



## P Smith

That's probably why no more signals coming from it.


----------



## grump

Sixto said:


> Hey Lefty. TLE 99 is time stamped after TLE 100. #99 is 6/9 (Mon) mid-day. Orbitron shows currently at 99.51. Every day it's been moving wrong way at ~.01.


Could that mean they are finished with testing and positioning D11 for a burn to place it into its final location?

(trying to be a "sat-half-parked" kinda guy today) :grin:


----------



## tuff bob

grump said:


> Could that mean they are finished with testing and positioning D11 for a burn to place it into its final location?


it's going the wrong way for that.


----------



## LameLefty

We'll just have to wait for the next TLE and see what's going on.


----------



## bruinfever

I've been out of the loop for a few days and just checking in. I just got really nervous seeing D11 at 99.5 and the fact that P Smith isnt seeing a consistent signal is not making me feel good right now....


----------



## MikeR7

Relax, nervous Nellies!:lol:


----------



## P Smith

I think they could use very narrow beam to LA area for tests, but that will not explain why other TWTA/dishes/PA doesn't testing. Or my rare short windows of monitoring just not in sync with real tests. Then I would say we are on same work time schedule .


----------



## Indiana627

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


Hey there good buddy, any chance you can provide us with an updated update? Really looking forward to welcoming you into my living room.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Indiana627 said:


> Hey there good buddy, any chance you can provide us with an updated update? Really looking forward to welcoming you into my living room.


Welcome in my living room as well. Thanks for the update


----------



## Ken984

last tle from Space Track


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08163.60393909 -.00000095  00000-0  10000-3 0  1005
2 32729 000.0140 334.6564 0006787 329.1842 073.7137 01.00120052   962

Orbitron shows it at 100 and headed West...something is going on, not necessarily a bad something

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-06-11 14:29:40
Orbit # at Epoch	96
Inclination	0.014
RA of A. Node	334.656
Eccentricity	0.0006787
Argument of Perigee	329.184
Revs per day	1.00120052
Period	23h 58m 16s (1438.27 min)
Semi-major axis	42 207 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 801 x 35 858 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	73.714
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	100 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	100.1928° W
Lat	0.0325° N
Alt (km)	35 848.500
Azm	191.8°
Elv	51.7°
RA	05h 06m 03s
Decl	-5° 13' 27"
Range (km)	37 033.483
RRt (km/s)	0.002
Vel (km/s)	3.072
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	133.5° (95)
TA	133.6°
Orbit #	96
Mag (illum)	? (4%)
Constellation	Ori
2Sun
Azm	199.0°
Elv	80.2°
RA	05h 21m 37s
Decl	23° 08' 58"
Lon	97.2343° W
Lat	23.1469° N
Range (km)	151 910 867
Constellation	Tau
3Moon
Azm	89.4°
Elv	-11.2°
RA	12h 13m 40s
Decl	-5° 28' 01"
Lon	5.2598° E
Lat	4.9891° S
Range (km)	397 112
Illum	61%
Phase	First quarter
Constellation	Vir


----------



## mbuser

Ken984 said:


> last tle from Space Track
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08163.60393909 -.00000095  00000-0  10000-3 0  1005
> 2 32729 000.0140 334.6564 0006787 329.1842 073.7137 01.00120052   962
> 
> Orbitron shows it at 100 and headed West...something is going on, not necessarily a bad something
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 11
> NORAD #	32729
> COSPAR designator	2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2008-06-11 14:29:40
> Orbit # at Epoch	96
> Inclination	0.014
> RA of A. Node	334.656
> Eccentricity	0.0006787
> Argument of Perigee	329.184
> Revs per day	1.00120052
> Period	23h 58m 16s (1438.27 min)
> Semi-major axis	42 207 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 801 x 35 858 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	73.714
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	100 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A
> 
> 1DIRECTV 11
> Lon	100.1928° W
> Lat	0.0325° N
> Alt (km)	35 848.500
> Azm	191.8°
> Elv	51.7°
> RA	05h 06m 03s
> Decl	-5° 13' 27"
> Range (km)	37 033.483
> RRt (km/s)	0.002
> Vel (km/s)	3.072
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	133.5° (95)
> TA	133.6°
> Orbit #	96
> Mag (illum)	? (4%)
> Constellation	Ori
> 2Sun
> Azm	199.0°
> Elv	80.2°
> RA	05h 21m 37s
> Decl	23° 08' 58"
> Lon	97.2343° W
> Lat	23.1469° N
> Range (km)	151 910 867
> Constellation	Tau
> 3Moon
> Azm	89.4°
> Elv	-11.2°
> RA	12h 13m 40s
> Decl	-5° 28' 01"
> Lon	5.2598° E
> Lat	4.9891° S
> Range (km)	397 112
> Illum	61%
> Phase	First quarter
> Constellation	Vir


Descending?


----------



## bruinfever

Ken984 said:


> last tle from Space Track
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08163.60393909 -.00000095  00000-0  10000-3 0  1005
> 2 32729 000.0140 334.6564 0006787 329.1842 073.7137 01.00120052   962
> 
> Orbitron shows it at 100 and headed West...something is going on, not necessarily a bad something


Maybe D10 and D11 are trading spaces??? Or maybe the guy at Boeing holding the remote control forgot that the directions are reversed and toggled right instead of left :eek2:


----------



## Matt9876

mbuser said:


> Descending?


They are supposed to be at 99.4 for the next 19 days for testing, after that they should park it at 99.2.

Very strange to let it drift west like that. It's probably nothing and I suspect they are spot beam testing at this point in time.


----------



## BudShark

I said it with D10 and I'll say it with D11....

There's a guy sitting at a computer right now saying... "Heh Bob, watch this... I'll drift 'er a bit and those crazies at DBSTalk will go nuts..."

As MikeR7 stated, "Relax Nervous nellies!"


----------



## doctor j

The TLE for today:



Code:


DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   08163.60393909 -.00000095  00000-0  10000-3 0  1005
2 32729 000.0140 334.6564 0006787 329.1842 073.7137 01.00120052   962

is the third TLE labeled #100
me thinks this one is just wrong.
Using it in ORBITRON does show the orbit up, out of round, and moving westward fairly substantially.
All markedly different that anything recent.

Could be an error just as some movement started but I bet it's just wrong.

Doctor j


----------



## gslater

Strange. Apogee and Perigee are up, hence the westward drift. I'm sure it will all become clear soon enough but for now it's got me scratching my head.

Edit: Hopefully the next TLE will clear it up.


----------



## Newshawk

Maybe D11 is going to rescue its cousin AMC-14?


----------



## man_rob

Matt9876 said:


> They are supposed to be at 99.4 for the next 19 days for testing, after that they should park it at 99.2.
> 
> Very strange to let it drift west like that. It's probably nothing and I suspect they are spot beam testing at this point in time.


I believe the wording in regards to the testing location was "up to 30 days", not "for 30 days". Could it be they accomplished what they needed at the test location, and are now moving it, via some complicated, but necessary path?


----------



## Tom_S

man_rob said:


> I believe the wording in regards to the testing location was "up to 30 days", not "for 30 days". Could it be they accomplished what they needed at the test location, and are now moving it, via some complicated, but necessary path?


This is probably what is going on.


----------



## cforrest

Anyone check to see if there is some new FCC filing by Directv? If by July we don't see anything from D11, then perhaps something could be wrong.


----------



## Darkscream

cforrest said:


> Anyone check to see if there is some new FCC filing by Directv? If by July we don't see anything from D11, then perhaps something could be wrong.


I could find nothing filed after the previously announced filing apropos testing for up to 30 days.


----------



## P Smith

Battery drained ? Solar panels problem ? Self-drifting ?


----------



## tunce

It's time to panic people!!!!!!!!




j/k


----------



## Sixto

cforrest said:


> Anyone check to see if there is some new FCC filing by Directv? If by July we don't see anything from D11, then perhaps something could be wrong.


No new FCC Filings.


----------



## Steve Robertson

tunce said:


> It's time to panic people!!!!!!!!
> 
> j/k


Please


----------



## PWenger

IF something is wrong...and I claim no knowledge either way...I think the fact that we aren't hearing anything is a good sign. If it was a major, fatal error, by SEC rules the shareholders would probably have to be alerted. 

You can be as secretive as you want on just about everything else, but if an issue is going to possibly effect stock prices (ie failure to deliever promised HD causes a sell off), the feds are going to be all over Directv if they fail to disclose.

Remember...the tech guys aren't the ones who released the information on the malfuctioning spot beams on D10...it was in investor news.

If I hear there is going to be a special investor teleconference or something to that effect, then I am going to start getting nervous. Otherwise, I am going to treat Directv's plans as I treat God's...I am sure there are reasons for everything, but I will never be made privy to them.


----------



## Smthkd

Its times like this that you began to miss Earl!


----------



## ddobson

:lol: Perhaps its on a collision course with the uplink center? OMG....


----------



## Steve Robertson

Smthkd said:


> Its times like this that you began to miss Earl!


Earl who ?


----------



## Sixto

Usually, a change to the perigee/apogee would be a good thing. It hopefully would mean that D11 is on the move to it's final location.

The latest TLE (#100) from 6/11/2008 (today) 2:29pm UTC shows 35 801km x 35 858km. (no longer geostationary)

But not sure the TLE can be trusted because there are 3 TLE's with #100.

An optimistic view would be that this is the start of the move to 99.2.

Just not sure until the next TLE or two ...

Last 5 TLE's:


Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08163.60393909 -.00000095  00000-0  10000-3 0  1005
2 32729 000.0140 334.6564 0006787 329.1842 073.7137 01.00120052   962
1 32729U 08013A   08162.25165378 -.00000126 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01007
2 32729 000.0159 313.4890 0000063 249.2860 047.2810 01.00269036000940
1 32729U 08013A   08160.58121096 -.00000130 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01005
2 32729 000.0184 312.0589 0000274 306.8509 108.1548 01.00269017000935
1 32729U 08013A   08161.39611449 -.00000129  00000-0  10000-3 0   996
2 32729 000.0171 312.9602 0000119 278.4257 069.8396 01.00269021   937
1 32729U 08013A   08159.66790674 -.00000131  00000-0  10000-3 0   983
2 32729 000.0200 307.5249 0000273 321.5980 128.2603 01.00269021   921


----------



## bakers12

Sixto said:


> An optimistic view would be that this is the start of the move to 99.2.


I agree. I am most optimistic right now. I remember D10 doing this sort of thing and causing all sorts of posts like these.

Of course, I could be wrong but I can dream, if nothing else. :grin:


----------



## Smthkd

Don't worry, D11 is just farting a little gas.


----------



## smiddy

D-11 will get there when it gets there.


----------



## Zepes

smiddy said:


> D-11 will get there when it gets there.


Thanks Smiddy :biggthump

:grin:


----------



## Tigerman73

It doesn't make sense to me that it would be moving westward unless they are planning on swapping out sats at 103 or possibly testing it at 103 to see if it can work better than D10 does there. If that were the case there should be some paperwork on file now or in the not too distant future. Maybe w/ the spotbeams working correctly on this one they can get the far northwest better and move D-10 to 99 and those slightly off spotbeams can serve middle america more effectively. Only D* knows for sure. I doubt there's anything wrong w/ it if it's on the move since problems w/ navigation would probably have shown up by now.


----------



## grump

P Smith said:


> Battery drained ? Solar panels problem ? Self-drifting ?


Ever seen the movie "Independence Day"? 
How about "Fifth Element"?

Everybody knows that aliens always hijack the satellites before they attack. It's just good strategy. :eek2:


----------



## dhines

grump said:


> Ever seen the movie "Independence Day"?
> How about "Fifth Element"?
> 
> Everybody knows that aliens always hijack the satellites before they attack. It's just good strategy. :eek2:


seeing that an invasion is imminent, remember what hollywood taught us in 'mar's attacks', get that god awful music on to kill the aliens.

then everything will be fine and we will be able to correctly position D11


----------



## kevinwmsn

Is there a filing that says when D11 can broadcast from its perminant home(99.2)?
Maybe they are done testing and are moving it to its final spot.


----------



## HoTat2

kevinwmsn said:


> Is there a filing that says when D11 can broadcast from its perminant home(99.2)?
> Maybe they are done testing and are moving it to its final spot.


Yes, but if the latest TLEs are correct, it's drifting in the wrong direction by moving futher west beyond it's assigned test slot of 99.4. As it should be moving east to get to get back to 99.2.

If it is being postioned to it's permanent operating slot with this current maneuver that is.

Go figure...


----------



## tuff bob

Maybe there is some other issue with the satellite so they are drifting it over to another location where there is less opportunity for interference? Though we'd expect a FCC filing for that 

Or maybe they're just letting it drift because they're not going to use it soon, save some station keeping fuel.

Who knows.


----------



## curt8403

HoTat2 said:


> Yes, but if the latest TLEs are correct, it's drifting in the wrong direction by moving futher west beyond it's assigned test slot of 99.4. As it should be moving east to get to get back to 99.2.
> 
> If it is being postioned to it's permanent operating slot with this current maneuver that is.
> 
> Go figure...


maybe Directv 11 is trying to get to the 101 slot so that it can make fun of the 101 being SD only.


----------



## P Smith

They have certain margin for drift, but definitely not unlimited.


----------



## betterdan

curt8403 said:


> maybe Directv 11 is trying to get to the 101 slot so that it can make fun of the 101 being SD only.


WTF! :thats:


----------



## Dolly

Well let's all not panic until we know what we are panicking about. I confess I know nothing about all this technical stuff.


----------



## sat2631

Seems like they lost control of it. Hope it doesn't run into anything.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> Battery drained ? Solar panels problem ? Self-drifting ?





sat2631 said:


> Seems like they lost control of it. Hope it doesn't run into anything.


If any of these things happened, they would be required to file an 8-K report with the SEC. Since they haven't, it's safe to say that none of this has happened.


----------



## smiddy

Don't worry, be happy. Be happy now!

Relax, enjoy the summer! It will get here, you'll all see <ManiacalLaughter>


----------



## hdtvfan0001

...or maybe there was a Klingon War Bird in the area.....  

In any case...things are just fine. Perhaps the monitoring data site is having an "issue".


----------



## MikeR7

Dolly said:


> Well let's all not panic until we know what we are panicking about. I confess I know nothing about all this technical stuff.


She's BAAAaaaacck!:lol:

Welcome back! I was actually concerned about you! 

Enjoying all your HD tennis?


----------



## gregjones

Perhaps there is a more fuel efficient burn to get it into final position that would require it to be a little further away. Maybe letting it drift west will allow one quick burst instead of a lot of minor adjustments. Maybe they're trying to save gas and just put it in neutral to let it coast for a while. We don't know. 

We do know that nothing major has gone wrong because they haven't file the reports that would be required if it had.


----------



## LameLefty

gregjones said:


> Perhaps there is a more fuel efficient burn to get it into final position that would require it to be a little further away. Maybe letting it drift west will allow one quick burst instead of a lot of minor adjustments. Maybe they're trying to save gas and just put it in neutral to let it coast for a while. We don't know.


Several of us know enough orbital mechanics to doubt that. 

On the other hand, I also know that TLEs are sometimes not entirely accurate - I frankly don't trust the last few element sets. If observations are made in the middle of a movement, it's quite possible the elements calculated will be significantly inaccurate.


----------



## bakers12

Two new TLEs in rapid succession:


> DIRECTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A 08164.41148624 -.00000096 00000-0 10000-3 0 1020
> 2 32729 000.0150 349.4754 0005027 330.6612 348.5093 01.00161389 968
> DIRECTV 11
> 1 32729U 08013A 08164.35241037 -.00000090 00000-0 10000-3 0 1018
> 2 32729 000.0148 344.2392 0006875 320.1771 342.9214 01.00120654 961


The shorter period shows Eastward drift.


----------



## syphix

bakers12 said:


> Two new TLEs in rapid succession:
> The shorter period shows Eastward drift.


So that's......good?


----------



## bakers12

It's an observation. I think it's good, but I'm not informed of DirecTV's plans.


----------



## HoTat2

bakers12 said:


> Two new TLEs in rapid succession:
> The shorter period shows Eastward drift.


OK... well those TLEs look better. I just wonder though, what orbital position D11 started from before these two newest TLEs here? Were the prior TLEs before these which showed a westward drift off its test slot of 99.4 to be ignored thereby placing the movement of D11 east from 99.4W? Or did D11 indeed drift west beyond 99.4W for some unknown reason and is now headed back east from maybe 99.5+ or some other?


----------



## gslater

HoTat2 said:


> OK... well those TLEs look better. I just wonder though, what orbital position D11 started from before these two newest TLEs here? Were the prior TLEs before these which showed a westward drift off its test slot of 99.4 to be ignored thereby placing the movement of D11 east from 99.4W? Or did D11 indeed drift west beyond 99.4W for some unknown reason and is now headed back east from maybe 99.5+ or some other?


Am I looking at something wrong? When I plug either of those into Orbitron, I still get westward drift from both of them and they are now past 100 degrees W. The average altitude remains above what is required for a Geostationary orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> Am I looking at something wrong? When I plug either of those into Orbitron, I still get westward drift from both of them and they are now past 100 degrees W. The average altitude remains above what is required for a Geostationary orbit.


Yes, I agree. Either they're moving things around in a _very_ unusual way, or the TLE is not accurate. 

Name	Directv 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-06-12 09:52:32
Orbit # at Epoch	96
Inclination	0.015
RA of A. Node	349.475
Eccentricity	0.0005027
Argument of Perigee	330.661
Revs per day	1.00161389
Period	23h 57m 40s (1437.67 min)
Semi-major axis	42 196 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 796 x 35 839 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	348.509
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	102 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## HoTat2

gslater said:


> Am I looking at something wrong? When I plug either of those into Orbitron, I still get westward drift from both of them and they are now past 100 degrees W. The average altitude remains above what is required for a Geostationary orbit.


Sign... read it wrong 

Your correct, ignore my previous post. If the latest TLEs are right then D11 is still headed west, strangely enough for some reason.

Guess I need a late cup of coffee to wake up more and read the TLEs more carefully.


----------



## Sixto

Last 3 TLE's (100-102) ... very unusual ... can't explain it (yet) ...


----------



## bakers12

The period (1.00161389) is shorter than satellites in geostationary orbit, usually about 1.0027. Shorter periods mean Eastward drift.

Since the orbit is a little more eccentric now, there could be Westward movement at times, but it should be offset by larger Eastward movements.


----------



## gslater

bakers12 said:


> The period (1.00161389) is shorter than satellites in geostationary orbit, usually about 1.0027. Shorter periods mean Eastward drift.
> 
> Since the orbit is a little more eccentric now, there could be Westward movement at times, but it should be offset by larger Eastward movements.


Doesn't the satellite orbit west to east (Sun rises in the East) so a shorter period would mean westward drift? Or maybe I'm getting rev's per day and period confused?

Edit: Sorry. Just went back to check and get my head straight and the number 1.00161389 is the rev's per day. Less revolutions per day means it is not keeping up with the Earth's rotation and so would drift west. In order to drift east it would have to have a higher Revolutions per day than 1.0027.


----------



## HoTat2

bakers12 said:


> The period (1.00161389) is shorter than satellites in geostationary orbit, usually about 1.0027. Shorter periods mean Eastward drift.
> 
> Since the orbit is a little more eccentric now, there could be Westward movement at times, but it should be offset by larger Eastward movements.


No, that's the mistake I keep making. The reverse is true. Any period below approx. 1.0027 means a westward drift. And any above that, an eastward one. As it refers to the number of orbits completed by the satellite in one solar day.

Therefore a period of approx. 1.0016 orbits is short of the required 1.0027 for a GSO. Which means the satellite is orbiting slower than the earth's rotation, translating into a westward drift.


----------



## Dolly

MikeR7 said:


> She's BAAAaaaacck!:lol:
> 
> Welcome back! I was actually concerned about you!
> 
> Enjoying all your HD tennis?


You better believe I have been enjoying all the HD tennis 
And thanks for the welcome back :sunsmile: Now if we can get this "issue" about D11 straighten out. I know nothing about the technical stuff so I don't even know if there is a real "issue" :lol:


----------



## bakers12

HoTat2 said:


> No, that's the mistake I keep making. The reverse is true. Any period below approx. 1.0027 means a westward drift. And any above that, an eastward one. As it refers to the number of orbits completed by the satellite in one solar day.
> 
> Therefore a period of approx. 1.0016 orbits is short of the required 1.0027 for a GSO. Which means the satellite is orbiting slower than the earth's rotation, translating into a westward drift.


DOH! I've been making that mistake for weeks now! It's "revs per day" not "days per rev."

It makes sense it should drift West because the orbit is too high.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Dolly said:


> You better believe I have been enjoying all the HD tennis
> And thanks for the welcome back :sunsmile: Now if we can get this "issue" about D11 straighten out. I know nothing about the technical stuff so I don't even know if there is a real "issue" :lol:


Dolly,

Great to see you again. Are we only going to see you when new birds go up? I think you are a closet rocket scientist


----------



## Dolly

Steve Robertson said:


> Dolly,
> 
> Great to see you again. Are we only going to see you when new birds go up? I think you are a closet rocket scientist


:lol: No I'm back for good  I was reading the thread and not understanding it until it seems there might be a problem. For some reason I'm able to pick up on a possible problem without understanding anything else


----------



## gslater

Dolly said:


> :lol: No I'm back for good  I was reading the thread and not understanding it until it seems there might be a problem. For some reason I'm able to pick up on a possible problem without understanding anything else


At this point the only problem is that we aren't on the "inside" and don't know what is going on. And it's nice to hear from you again


----------



## curt8403

I just knew that it was a mistake for the launch crew to listen to Alan Parson's Project Gemini during launch.
(Look up the lyrics)


----------



## Steve Robertson

Dolly said:


> :lol: No I'm back for good  I was reading the thread and not understanding it until it seems there might be a problem. For some reason I'm able to pick up on a possible problem without understanding anything else


You and I have a lot in common as I am the same way


----------



## curt8403

curt8403 said:


> I just knew that it was a mistake for the launch crew to listen to Alan Parson's Project Gemini during launch.
> (Look up the lyrics)


ok. lets try again..

Lyrics (Partial)
Watching waiting rising falling 
Listening calling Drifting (describes activity of the last few months)
and then
Hoping sending leaving It's Parked, P Smith has a signal, Where is it going??!


----------



## P Smith

Nope, last days I saw nothing. Quiet June.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Nope, last days I saw nothing. Quiet June.


right you had a signal about 4 days ago or a bit more, then it started drifting away


----------



## P Smith

That's my second thoughts when I saw posts about the drift out of STA point.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> That's my second thoughts when I saw posts about the drift out of STA point.


maybe they are drifting it out of slot deliberately to see if the onboard computer system can return it to the correct slot unaided?


----------



## P Smith

unlikely, FCC will punish DTV pretty hard for that, if nothing uncontrollable happened


----------



## Sixto

really find it hard to understand why D11 left geostationary.

could easily have drifted from 99.4 to 99.2. 

I need to go back and look at D10.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> really find it hard to understand why D11 left geostationary.
> 
> could easily have drifted from 99.4 to 99.2.
> 
> I need to go back and look at D10.


ya, I know, it makes me want to :crying_sa


----------



## curt8403

curt8403 said:


> ya, I know, it makes me want to :crying_sa


horrid thought, what if we are looking for a filing from directv, and the sat is still under the nominal control of boeing, and they are the ones that filed.


----------



## Sixto

Well, maybe nothing to worry about at all ...

Just looked at D10. 9/12/2007 was when we started seeing a signal.

D10 did a similar change to perigee/apogee.

D10's test location was 102.6º, final location was 102.775º


Code:


09-07-2007 10:25:33   35,786 x 35,787 km   102.5570° W
09-08-2007 11:06:39   35 785 x 35 788 km   102.5569° W
09-12-2007 08:58:31   35 791 x 35 799 km   102.7703° W
09-13-2007 10:25:57   35 766 x 35 817 km   102.8026° W
09-16-2007 09:10:05   35 783 x 35 790 km   102.7790° W
09-19-2007 05:57:39   35 786 x 35 789 km   102.7810° W
09-22-2007 08:38:45   35 781 x 35 792 km   102.7723° W
09-27-2007 09:21:33   35 782 x 35 791 km   102.7705° W


----------



## lance30276

newbie question. if the altitude is higher than geostationary orbit, then is the sat drifting west? lower than, drifting east? I've been watching that tracking site and the altitude is decreasing. does that mean it's slowing it's western drift? I might be mistaken but was it increasing its altitude earlier?
or....... does it mean it is simply increasing and decreasing due to it's not in a "perfect" orbit?


----------



## DodgerKing

lance30276 said:


> newbie question. if the altitude is higher than geostationary orbit, then is the sat drifting west? lower than, drifting east? I've been watching that tracking site and the altitude is decreasing. does that mean it's slowing it's western drift? I might be mistaken but was it increasing its altitude earlier?
> or....... does it mean it is simply increasing and decreasing due to it's not in a "perfect" orbit?


Higher altitude at the same orbital speed translates to a slower rotation because it has a larger circumference it must cover, thus a westward drift.


----------



## Sixto

Well, with D11 on the move, it's time to update the TLE history again, so we can track what's going on.

I had stopped the TLE updates on 5/28/2008 when we got to 99.4 geostationary.

Here's everything since 5/28.

It's easy to see the change in the last two days ... test location was 99.4°, final location is scheduled for 99.2°.


Code:


TLE#102(06-12-2008 09:52:32) 35 796 x 35 839 km (100.5922°)
TLE#101(06-12-2008 08:27:28) 35 800 x 35 858 km (100.5863°)
TLE#100(06-11-2008 14:29:40) 35 801 x 35 858 km (100.0831°)
TLE#99 (06-09-2008 09:30:24) 35 787 x 35 788 km ( 99.4886°)
TLE#98 (06-07-2008 16:01:47) 35 786 x 35 789 km ( 99.4716°)
TLE#97 (06-07-2008 02:57:49) 35 786 x 35 789 km ( 99.4723°)
TLE#96 (06-06-2008 19:53:36) 35 786 x 35 789 km ( 99.4658°)
TLE#95 (06-06-2008 08:10:36) 35 787 x 35 788 km ( 99.4650°)
TLE#94 (06-04-2008 10:56:07) 35 787 x 35 788 km ( 99.4547°)
TLE#93 (06-02-2008 09:46:47) 35 786 x 35 788 km ( 99.4428°)
TLE#92 (06-02-2008 17:23:25) 35 787 x 35 787 km ( 99.4462°)
TLE#91 (06-01-2008 09:21:55) 35 786 x 35 788 km ( 99.4373°)
TLE#90 (05-31-2008 08:32:28) 35 786 x 35 788 km ( 99.4324°)
TLE#89 (05-30-2008 10:59:25) 35 786 x 35 788 km ( 99.4269°)
TLE#88 (05-29-2008 10:43:26) 35 786 x 35 788 km ( 99.4212°)
TLE#87 (05-28-2008 09:42:18) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+23.3 hours, at 69.7 days, +  1km)
TLE#86 (05-27-2008 10:23:29) 35,785 x 35,789 km (+45.8 hours, at 68.7 days, -  1km)
TLE#85 (05-25-2008 12:37:10) 35,786 x 35,792 km (+27.0 hours, at 66.8 days, + 39km)
TLE#84 (05-24-2008 09:39:35) 35,747 x 35,804 km (+20.0 hours, at 65.7 days, +  8km)
TLE#83 (05-23-2008 13:38:44) 35,739 x 35,884 km (+ 1.6 hours, at 64.8 days, -  9km)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## rotomike

That worries me a little. Not nominal. 1 degree off is not good.

Mike


----------



## Dolly

rotomike said:


> That worries me a little. Not nominal. 1 degree off is not good.
> 
> Mike


To those of you who really understand what is going on just let me know when I should panic. I don't want to waste a perfectly good panic for no good reason  BTW where is Lefty?


----------



## P Smith

Correcting the orbit.


----------



## bakers12

There's only two places that D11 can operate, where it tests and where it runs. It was at its testing spot, nice and stable. The only reason to move it from there before you have to (based on the FCC test license) is to get it to where it's going.


----------



## HoTat2

If I didn’t know any better, I say they were moving D11 to the core group position at 101W. For whatever reason(s), I can’t begin to fathom.

Very strange behavior indeed…


----------



## LameLefty

HoTat2 said:


> If I didn't know any better, I say they were moving D11 to the core group position at 101W. For whatever reason(s), I can't begin to fathom.
> 
> Very strange behavior indeed&#8230;


That was my thought too - weirdness!


----------



## smiddy

I think there are so many sats up there now that there has to be some care in moving them around. I know it is still a big-sky-theory, but still, you don't want to bump into another satellite inadvertantly.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> I think there are so many sats up there now that there has to be some care in moving them around. I know it is still a big-sky-theory, but still, you don't want to bump into another satellite inadvertantly.


that might explain it.

I did feel better last night after looking at D10 and seeing a similar movement before the move to 102.775 (details above). Not as radical but it was similar.


----------



## bjamin82

According to Orbitron as of 5 min ago...


1DIRECTV 11
Lon	101.0113° W
Lat	0.0252° N
Alt (km)	35 807.830
Azm	294.5°
Elv	-25.1°
RA	01h 18m 47s
Decl	-6° 31' 14"
Range (km)	44 500.701
RRt (km/s)	0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.074
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	63.8° (45)
TA	63.9°
Orbit #	98
Mag (illum)	Not visible
Constellation	Cet
2Sun
Azm	261.9°
Elv	35.5°
RA	05h 29m 21s
Decl	23° 16' 08"
Lon	42.7213° W
Lat	23.2525° N
Range (km)	151 939 368
Constellation	Tau
3Moon
Azm	123.1°
Elv	4.5°
RA	13h 34m 45s
Decl	-15° 20' 25"
Lon	78.2551° E
Lat	14.7273° S
Range (km)	402 843
Illum	76%
Phase	Waxing gibbous
Constellation	Vir


----------



## jefbal99

bjamin82 said:


> According to Orbitron as of 5 min ago...
> 
> 1DIRECTV 11
> Lon	101.0113° W
> Lat	0.0252° N
> Alt (km)	35 807.830
> Azm	294.5°
> Elv	-25.1°
> RA	01h 18m 47s
> Decl	-6° 31' 14"
> Range (km)	44 500.701
> RRt (km/s)	0.001
> Vel (km/s)	3.074
> Direction	Ascending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	63.8° (45)
> TA	63.9°
> Orbit #	98
> Mag (illum)	Not visible
> Constellation	Cet
> 2Sun
> Azm	261.9°
> Elv	35.5°
> RA	05h 29m 21s
> Decl	23° 16' 08"
> Lon	42.7213° W
> Lat	23.2525° N
> Range (km)	151 939 368
> Constellation	Tau
> 3Moon
> Azm	123.1°
> Elv	4.5°
> RA	13h 34m 45s
> Decl	-15° 20' 25"
> Lon	78.2551° E
> Lat	14.7273° S
> Range (km)	402 843
> Illum	76%
> Phase	Waxing gibbous
> Constellation	Vir


Is that a new TLE or an extraction from the previous?


----------



## bjamin82

jefbal99 said:


> Is that a new TLE or an extraction from the previous?


I am thinking it is new, since i just got the new data file.


----------



## tuff bob

102 is still the latest on space-track


----------



## LameLefty

bjamin82 said:


> I am thinking it is new, since i just got the new data file.


It's the same one I had yesterday, so it's not new.


----------



## tuff bob

I just did a search on the FCC website and the last thing was the STA for testing:

On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations necessary *to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location* in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules.


----------



## moonman

Sixto..........since this is Friday(normal day for FCC releases), maybe you could
check the FCC site for any change requests for Direct-11 from DirecTV? I would
do it myself, except finding anything over there is a complete waste if you don't
know exactly where to look.......thanks!
EDIT...sorry tuff bob...you posted at same time as me!


----------



## Tigerman73

Have they made any filings to move the Spaceway sat at 99? If I remember right they did some adjusting to the one at 103 when 10 was getting ready to go into service. Could the move be to get 11 out of the way while they slide Spaceway over a little? That might explain the strange movement in the last few days. Just a thought.


----------



## Sixto

moonman said:


> Sixto..........since this is Friday(normal day for FCC releases), maybe you could check the FCC site for any change requests for Direct-11 from DirecTV? ...


Oh yeah, absolutely plan to. Nothing yet. And nothing the last few Friday's.


----------



## Sixto

bjamin82 said:


> According to Orbitron as of 5 min ago...


As others have mentioned, the latest TLE is #102. Same as yesterday.

The only accurate measure of location is the location at the exact timestamp of the TLE. Everything after is just an extrapolation based on the last TLE. Posted the location for each TLE in post#3136 and also in the summary post #2. Will continue to keep post#2 up-to-date as previous, now that D11 is moving again.

Gut feel tells me that we're close. no other optimistic reason for the move. Lots of negative reasons (for the move) but we'll stay positive and assume it's the move to it's final resting place.


----------



## JeffBowser

"....._final resting place." _Isn't that where dead things go ? :lol:


----------



## say-what

tuff bob said:


> I just did a search on the FCC website and the last thing was the STA for testing:
> 
> On May 20, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) request for special temporary authority for a period of 30 days commencing on May 25, 2008, to operate the DIRECTV 11 satellite (Call Sign: S2640) from the 99.4° WL orbital location to conduct in-orbit testing using the 18.3-18.8 GHz (Space-to-earth) and 28.35-28.6 GHz and 29.25-29.5 (Earth-to-Space) and to conduct telemetry, tracking and control operations necessary *to maintain the satellite at the 99.4° WL orbital location* in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules.


Here's a link to the underlying application: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els...ent&application_seq=38739&RequestTimeout=1000

Exhibit: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=89556&x=.

Based on the exhibit, DirecTV sought approval for testing during transit from 99.4 to 100.7, during operation at 100.7 and in transit from 100.7 to it's licensed location at 99.225. So I guess they're just moving from testing at 99.4 to the next phase.

Note:

Operation Start Date: 05/15/2008 
Operation End Date: 09/12/2008

Station Location: Geostationary orbit at 100.7 WL +/- 0.3 degrees, 99.4 WL


----------



## RAD

Wonder if they're going to do some testing then at 101 with D11 for what they want to do with D12?


----------



## gslater

This move makes a lot of sense now. Does anyone with a background in satellite communications have any information to share about this BSS band stuff? Sounds like they want to operate it near 101 to see if it has any impact on the Satellite at that location. Is this something they want to use for Uplink? Or is this something they think will help them expand bandwidth for delivery of programming?

Edit: This may also explain why they keep talking about August/September for Go Live, since they obviously planned on spending some time testing this "Experimental" BSS package that was added to the Satellite.


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> This move makes a lot of sense now. Does anyone with a background in satellite communications have any information to share about this BSS band stuff? Sounds like they want to operate it near 101 to see if it has any impact on the Satellite at that location. Is this something they want to use for Uplink? Or is this something they think will help them expand bandwidth for delivery of programming?
> 
> Edit: This may also explain why they keep talking about August/September for Go Live, since they obviously planned on spending some time testing this "Experimental" BSS package that was added to the Satellite.


This would be a very good time for Tom to post his thoughts. 

Edit: Anyone notice this STA for 100.7 expires on 9/12/08? Bummer.


----------



## dduitsman

say-what said:


> ...Based on the exhibit, DirecTV sought approval for testing during transit from 99.4 to 100.7, during operation at 100.7 and in transit from 100.7 to it's licensed location at 99.225. So I guess they're just moving from testing at 99.4 to the next phase.


Thanks for that info say-what. So this is planned movement... Whew! - I guess I can start breathing again.

dd


----------



## Sixto

Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08165.60000000 -.00000103  00000-0  00000+0 0  1032
2 32729 000.0170 010.3730 0001162 004.0310 003.1680 01.00243151   987

35,790 x 35,800 km

100.6945° W


----------



## doctor j

say-what said:


> Here's a link to the underlying application: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els...ent&application_seq=38739&RequestTimeout=1000
> 
> Exhibit: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=89556&x=.
> 
> Based on the exhibit, DirecTV sought approval for testing during transit from 99.4 to 100.7, during operation at 100.7 and in transit from 100.7 to it's licensed location at 99.225. So I guess they're just moving from testing at 99.4 to the next phase.
> 
> Note:
> 
> Operation Start Date: 05/15/2008
> Operation End Date: 09/12/2008
> 
> Station Location: Geostationary orbit at 100.7 WL +/- 0.3 degrees, 99.4 WL


This may explain a LOT!

This seems to be a new revelation and explains the move as a test bed for the new BSS band which can add band with to the 99-101-103 slots Directv is focusing on. This test is a big reason for the delay in lighting up the Ka signals in my opinion.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

doctor j said:


> This may explain a LOT!
> 
> This seems to be a new revelation and explains the move as a test bed for the new BSS band which can add band with to the 99-101-103 slots Directv is focusing on. This test is a big reason for the delay in lighting up the Ka signals in my opinion.
> 
> Doctor j


Yep, I agree.

From the attachment:


> Grant of this STA request will serve the public interest by providing DIRECTV
> the critical authority necessary to support its proof of concept video transmissions in the
> newly available BSS band.


----------



## gslater

So what is the BSS band? Is it above or below KA?


----------



## smiddy

JeffBowser said:


> "....._final resting place." _Isn't that where dead things go ? :lol:


!rolling now that was funny!


----------



## JeffBowser

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261



gslater said:


> So what is the BSS band? Is it above or below KA?


----------



## STEVED21

gslater said:


> So what is the BSS band? Is it above or below KA?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261


----------



## gslater

Thanks for the links. I'm trying to digest what is in that thread right now.


----------



## tuff bob

One Big Phew!!!!!


----------



## P Smith

Oh, that whole 1 GHz down shift from existing Ka 18.3...18.8 GHz. Interesting if current Ka LNBFs could be tuned to the new range by changing LOF ?


----------



## Sixto

All I can say is wow ... this D11 BSS stuff is interesting ... need time to digest this ... the latest TLE puts D11 right at that 100.7 BSS test location ...


----------



## smiddy

say-what said:


> Here's a link to the underlying application: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els...ent&application_seq=38739&RequestTimeout=1000
> 
> Exhibit: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=89556&x=.
> 
> Based on the exhibit, DirecTV sought approval for testing during transit from 99.4 to 100.7, during operation at 100.7 and in transit from 100.7 to it's licensed location at 99.225. So I guess they're just moving from testing at 99.4 to the next phase.
> 
> Note:
> 
> Operation Start Date: 05/15/2008
> Operation End Date: 09/12/2008
> 
> Station Location: Geostationary orbit at 100.7 WL +/- 0.3 degrees, 99.4 WL


If I read this right, they will be doing DBS testing at 100.7...we should see some TPs on our receivers very soon.


----------



## Sixto

Geez, D11 kept a good secret!

"In order to help develop operational data on this band, DIRECTV has added to DIRECTV 11 an experimental payload operating in the 17.3-17.7 GHz (downlink) and 24.75-25.15 GHz (uplink) bands. It has been granted an STA to operate at 100.7° W.L. ± 0.3° in order to test the interaction of 17/24 GHz BSS and Direct Broadcast Satellite (“DBS”) operations in close proximity near 101° W.L."


----------



## Ken984

Its bss band Smiddy, i doubt our receivers can pick up anything, and if they did it would probably not be a "good" thing since 101 is being fully utilized already(KU) wise.


----------



## bruinfever

Is this consistent with D11 going live in September then? Wasn't there an investor's conference call where they stated it would be July or August? And how does this explain P Smith's comments that there was something irregular about the signal readings of D11 when it was at the testing slot of 99.4? That there was no consistent signal coming from D11 during testing as there was with D10?


----------



## kevinwmsn

If D12 would go at 101, How much additional HD channels would D12 give us? D12 is built the same as D10 and D11, so that should give us more spot beams too at that location? Would we also have to upgrade our LNBs if they put D12 there?


----------



## Sixto

kevinwmsn said:


> If D12 would go at 101, How much additional HD channels would D12 give us? D12 is built the same as D10 and D11, so that should give us more spot beams too at that location? Would we also have to upgrade our LNBs if they put D12 there?


This BSS news puts a whole new spin on everything. Possibly for D12.


----------



## Sixto

BTW, that August 13th rumor is making a whole lot more sense now


----------



## cwdonahue

Looking at this from the good news side....

They left 99.4 to go to the new test location at 100.7. So, things must have been fine and dandy with the testing at 99.4. Whenever D11 does start to move back towards 99, it's to light things up and start service. That's a good thing.


----------



## smiddy

Ok, so what is BSS. Is this a digital data type of thing? The idea then is to experiment with BSS next to DBS or concurrently with the same satellite? I read it the later, but perhaps that is not right, help me understand BSS.


----------



## Sixto

cwdonahue said:


> Looking at this from the good news side....
> 
> They left 99.4 to go to the new test location at 100.7. So, things must have been fine and dandy with the testing at 99.4. Whenever D11 does start to move back towards 99, it's to light things up and start service. That's a good thing.


Very true.


----------



## gslater

cwdonahue said:


> Looking at this from the good news side....
> 
> They left 99.4 to go to the new test location at 100.7. So, things must have been fine and dandy with the testing at 99.4. Whenever D11 does start to move back towards 99, it's to light things up and start service. That's a good thing.


That's the same thing I took from this. Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like regular testing was to be at the 99.4 slot and this extended testing at 100.7 was just for the BSS band stuff. I'd say that D11 is ready for HD. We just have to wait while DirecTV tests out the BSS band package and moves her back to her permanent broadcast slot.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Ok, so what is BSS. Is this a digital data type of thing? The idea then is to experiment with BSS next to DBS or concurrently with the same satellite? I read it the later, but perhaps that is not right, help me understand BSS.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261


----------



## gslater

smiddy said:


> Ok, so what is BSS. Is this a digital data type of thing? The idea then is to experiment with BSS next to DBS or concurrently with the same satellite? I read it the later, but perhaps that is not right, help me understand BSS.


If they wanted to test BSS concurrently with DBS operations in the KA band, they could have done that at 99.4. I'm assuming that they want to test BSS operation in close proximity to another sat to make sure they won't interfere with one another.


----------



## syphix

Why didn't they file paperwork and go DIRECTLY to 100.7, test, then move to 99.4 and 99?? That would have saved fuel, requiring less moves up there..


----------



## bobnielsen

kevinwmsn said:


> If D12 would go at 101, How much additional HD channels would D12 give us? D12 is built the same as D10 and D11, so that should give us more spot beams too at that location? Would we also have to upgrade our LNBs if they put D12 there?


Or it could be in preparation for D13 or later. Since it is in a different frequency range, it would require a different LNB, possibly a different dish altogether. I suspect that D12 will be at 99 or 103 and add a bunch of spotbeam and national transponders at the frequencies which currently show up as "N/A".

If D12 were to be at 101, it might take a radically different LNB to receive the 17 Ghz band simultaneously with 12 GHz Ku.


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Why didn't they file paperwork and go DIRECTLY to 100.7, test, then move to 99?? That would have saved fuel, requiring only ONE move up there...


Because the primary test is for Ka-band operations at 99.2, not BSS at 100.7. Test the most important payload first, then check out the other stuff, then go into operations at the main slot.


----------



## bobnielsen

syphix said:


> Why didn't they file paperwork and go DIRECTLY to 100.7, test, then move to 99?? That would have saved fuel, requiring only ONE move up there...


Likely some of the testing is/was being done with equipment which is also used for D10 or the Spaceways, which would require the position to be very close to those satellites.


----------



## bobnielsen

smiddy said:


> Ok, so what is BSS. Is this a digital data type of thing? The idea then is to experiment with BSS next to DBS or concurrently with the same satellite? I read it the later, but perhaps that is not right, help me understand BSS.


BSS = Broadcast Satellite Services. It is one of the frequency bands authorized for satellite services in the FCC regulations (part 25).


----------



## Sixto

Looks like DirecTV applied for BSS licenses at several slots including 99. I wonder if D11 could use that experimental payload some day to transmit BSS from 99 when/if DirecTV gets the license.

This is all very, very interesting.


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> BSS = Boeing Satellite Systems.


Nop, Broadcasting-Satellite Service (BSS).

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261


Thanks Sixto, based on this though, BSS complements DBS, hence since Video and Audio are there, then it is possible that channel conetnt can flow in the streams.



gslater said:


> If they wanted to test BSS concurrently with DBS operations in the KA band, they could have done that at 99.4. I'm assuming that they want to test BSS operation in close proximity to another sat to make sure they won't interfere with one another.


This makes sense, if that is how they requested to do the experiement. I wonder since it seems like BSS is an extension of DBS, that our receivers can/will pick up these signals. I often wondered why the bandwidth of the SWM channels was 100 MHz since a basic transponder size was 66 MHz (ish), perhaps BSS is 100 MHz per transponder?

This is getting interesting!


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Because the primary test is for Ka-band operations at 99.2, not BSS at 100.7. Test the most important payload first, then check out the other stuff, then go into operations at the main slot.


This, of course, implies that the primary testing at 99.4 has been completed


----------



## smiddy

bobnielsen said:


> This, of course, implies that the primary testing at 99.4 has been completed


That is how I see it!


----------



## bobnielsen

Sixto said:


> Nop, Broadcasting-Satellite Service (BSS).
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261


Yeah, Google found me too much conflicting information (I have edited that post with some more stuff I found).


----------



## Iwanthd

Would this BSS allow for two-way communication between IRD and satellite?


----------



## Sixto

Digging for more stuff ...

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=88348&x=.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=88415&x=.


----------



## Dolly

dduitsman said:


> Thanks for that info say-what. So this is planned movement... Whew! - I guess I can start breathing again.
> 
> dd


No need for panic now which is good. It was nice to come into the thread and see that everything was planned after all. D11 was very sneaky


----------



## P Smith

Iwanthd said:


> Would this BSS allow for two-way communication between IRD and satellite?


Not for regular receivers.


----------



## Sixto

Here's all 3 exhibits ...

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els...ile_num=0544-EX-ST-2007&application_seq=37436


----------



## Herdfan

P Smith said:


> Interesting if current Ka LNBFs could be tuned to the new range by changing LOF ?





kevinwmsn said:


> Would we also have to upgrade our LNBs if they put D12 there?


Don't forget about the new 99-103 dish that is coming out. I wonder if the delay on it was to incorporate the new band? Same for the SWMLine.


----------



## Sixto

Didn't find this stuff previously because it's "experimental" and located with the Office of Engineering and Technology


----------



## gslater

Sixto said:


> Digging for more stuff ...
> 
> https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=88348&x=.
> 
> https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=88415&x=.


Good find. Thanks Sixto.


----------



## Sixto

gslater said:


> Good find. Thanks Sixto.


Feel so stupid we didn't find this before. It's been public all along that they were going to a BSS 101 test slot. Was public in October 2007. Just was in the "experimental" FCC database. Finding it all now. Ah well ... never looked there before ...


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> Feel so stupid we didn't find this before. It's been public all along that they were going to a BSS 101 test slot. Was public in October 2007. Just was in the "experimental" FCC database. Finding it all now. Ah well ... never looked there before ...


Yep, from the article you posted:



> ...Accordingly, DIRECTV hereby requests that the 120 day authorization it has requested become effective
> on or about May 1, 2008, and include operations at both 99 WL *and 101.6 *WL.


----------



## DodgerKing

Now we also know why the plan for station launches is not supposed to be until August or September. It does look like everything went good and fast with the 99 test and if the same happens at the 101 test slot, there should be no reason for an earlier channel launch.


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> Yep, from the article you posted:


Yep, they originally planned all this when they were expecting a launch in January. Been sitting in that other non-Satellite database for months and months.


----------



## P Smith

DodgerKing said:


> Now we also know why the plan for station launches is not supposed to be until August or September. It does look like everything went good and fast with the 99 test and if the same happens at the 101 test slot, there should be no reason for an earlier channel launch.


Doesn't.
Umm, too short for my opinion - no full throttle on Ka transponders - I'm sure it should stay on for few days to check solar panel/charging control/batteries and TWTAs under full load.
From engineering stand point I'm still concerning about full functioning the Ka payload.


----------



## cforrest

So basically they are going to test for when D12 is launched by moving D11 to 100.7 and testing. That would also explain the minimal use of fuel to get to a circular/geosynchronous orbit the last few months. The move to 100.7 and back to 99 will use some fuel up. Wonder how long they are going to test there for, but regardless, nice find Sixto. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief that there is nothing wrong with the satellite.


----------



## Sirshagg

syphix said:


> Why didn't they file paperwork and go DIRECTLY to 100.7, test, then move to 99.4 and 99?? That would have saved fuel, requiring less moves up there..


I was wondering about that one myself.


----------



## say-what

gslater said:


> Thanks for the links. I'm trying to digest what is in that thread right now.





Dolly said:


> No need for panic now which is good. It was nice to come into the thread and see that everything was planned after all. D11 was very sneaky


Glad to help put everyone's minds at ease.



Sixto said:


> Didn't find this stuff previously because it's "experimental" and located with the Office of Engineering and Technology


 For whatever reason, I just decided to go poking around the FCC site today to see what I could find and stumbled upon this. I pretty much tried searching in whatever databases I could - it would be so much easier if you could perform 1 search. I still can't find some of the other stuff people have posted in the past as I try to learn my way around the FCC site.


----------



## P Smith

cforrest said:


> So basically they are going to test for when D12 is launched by moving D11 to 100.7 and testing. That would also explain the minimal use of fuel to get to a circular/geosynchronous orbit the last few months. The move to 100.7 and back to 99 will use some fuel up. Wonder how long they are going to test there for, but regardless, nice find Sixto. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief that there is nothing wrong with the satellite.


Would be nice if could answer to my concerns in a post just above your. Preferable in technical manner.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cforrest said:


> So basically they are going to test for when D12 is launched by moving D11 to 100.7 and testing. That would also explain the minimal use of fuel to get to a circular/geosynchronous orbit the last few months. The move to 100.7 and back to 99 will use some fuel up. Wonder how long they are going to test there for, but regardless, nice find Sixto. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief that there is nothing wrong with the satellite.


I was never worried... 

*OK...maybe a tiny bit....*


----------



## man_rob

P Smith said:


> Would be nice if could answer to my concerns in a post just above your. Preferable in technical manner.


When D10 had issues with some of the spot beams, DirecTV announced it. If they were having any problems with D11, I would expect the same sort of announcement. You can speculate, and worry about your speculative concerns, but you are on the outside looking in.

All of the moves the satellite has made have been according to plans previously announced.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Would be nice if could answer to my concerns in a post just above your. Preferable in technical manner.


Think about it . . . they've been able to test all the ancillary systems for weeks already. This includes tracking and telemetry, thermal control, attitude control and propulsion ops, solar charging and battery conditioning, whether under real or simulated load.

The only thing we haven't seen evidence of is full power transponder testing on-orbit. Those almost certainly were tested on the ground prior to launch and verified via on-board diagnostics since then (even if your equipment hasn't detected a recognizable signal).

Therefore, I think that we (collectively) know less about the on-going test and verification methods than we think we do, else the move to 100.7 to test a secondary, experimental payload would not be occurring right now. The primary purpose of this satellite is Ka band broadcasts and Directv would not have been able to make its recent statements to investors if there had been a problem with the last three weeks of testing at 99.4.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Feel so stupid we didn't find this before. It's been public all along that they were going to a BSS 101 test slot. Was public in October 2007. Just was in the "experimental" FCC database. Finding it all now. Ah well ... never looked there before ...


Yep. And the Boeing Satellite Systems and Directv lurkers having been secretly laughing their butts off at us worry warts.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Yep. And the Boeing Satellite Systems and Directv lurkers having been secretly laughing their butts off at us worry warts.


Yep, was thinking that. You'd think someone would have thrown us a bone somewhere along the way ...  ... Anything to give us a hint of something else to be tested. It was all public, we just weren't looking in the usual place.


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Yep, was thinking that. You'd think someone would have thrown us a bone somewhere along the way ...  ... Anything to give us a hint of something else to be tested. It was all public, we just weren't looking in the usual place.


You would think. Oh well.


----------



## Button Pusher

Sixto said:


> Yep, was thinking that. You'd think someone would have thrown us a bone somewhere along the way ...  ... Anything to give us a hint of something else to be tested. It was all public, we just weren't looking in the usual place.


I agree.Apparently the poster D11 is not our friend.


----------



## JeffBowser

NDA's can have real bite. This was probably as closely guarded as could be, given filing requirments, due to its potential impact on and/or from the competition.


----------



## Sixto

JeffBowser said:


> NDA's can have real bite. This was probably as closely guarded as could be, given filing requirments, due to its potential impact on and/or from the competition.


It was all public info. We just weren't looking in the "experimental" filing sections.

D11 Details: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els...ile_num=0544-EX-ST-2007&application_seq=37436

Office of Engineering and Technology (OET) Experimental Licensing System: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/


----------



## JeffBowser

Right, nice place to bury something you have to legally file by law, but you don't want to shout it from the rooftops, I might imagine.


----------



## Dolly

Sixto said:


> Yep, was thinking that. You'd think someone would have thrown us a bone somewhere along the way ...  ... Anything to give us a hint of something else to be tested. It was all public, we just weren't looking in the usual place.


Oh well you were doing the best job you could and thanks for your hard work  And now that we know everything is O.K. we can look at it as being funny ourselves  My panic level is just set too low :lol:


----------



## Matt9876

We are pretty much on our own here,Most in the "loop" personal won't tell what they know as it may cost them their job. 

Competition is the main cause for the lack of information.

I'll bet everything is working at 100% on D11 and the fall TV season is going to be exciting .


----------



## P Smith

Matt9876 said:


> We are pretty much on our own here,Most in the "loop" personal won't tell what they know as it may cost them their job.
> 
> Competition is the main cause for the lack of information.
> 
> I'll bet everything is working at 100% on D11 and the fall TV season is going to be exciting .


I would accept it if there would be press release telling us: D11 finished testing [some] component at 99.6W successfully and moved to another test location for further tests with BSS payload. Blah, blah.
But knowing how the kind of silence hide other things... (really, I know the things ), I wouldn't relax this time.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> I would accept it if there would be press release telling us: D11 finished testing [some] component at 99.6W successfully and moved to another test location for further tests with BSS payload. Blah, blah.
> But knowing how the kind of silence hide other things... (really, I know the things ), I wouldn't relax this time.


There was the next best thing: last week's investor conference giving not the slightest hint of trouble, plus the recently-found FCC filings about the experimental BSS testing at (surprise!) the very location D11 has moved to.

You're being paranoid.


----------



## carl6

Just because some information appears in a public filing or document does not invalidate a non-disclosure agreement an employee or other knowledgeable person has.

I would imagine there were some folks chuckling at our worry and speculation, and others who might have wanted to "throw a bone" but couldn't, even though the "bone" might have pointed to a public filing.

It is good to see a valid reason for the movement of D11. While there was no indication of trouble, it was puzzling as to why it was going the direction it was going.

Carl
Carl


----------



## LameLefty

carl6 said:


> Just because some information appears in a public filing or document does not invalidate a non-disclosure agreement an employee or other knowledgeable person has.
> 
> I would imagine there were some folks chuckling at our worry and speculation, and others who might have wanted to "throw a bone" but couldn't, even though the "bone" might have pointed to a public filing.
> 
> It is good to see a valid reason for the movement of D11. While there was no indication of trouble, it was puzzling as to why it was going the direction it was going.
> 
> Carl
> Carl


Read my post earlier in the thread; I believe the "direction" makes perfect sense. Test the primary payload FIRST and confirm things are entirely as they need to be before doing the experimental BSS secondary payload at its assigned location. If the primary payload tests take longer than anticipated, you still have plenty of time to work out the issues before doing any secondary tests and without unduly alarming the public with delays. Yeah it takes a little bit more fuel but over 15 years worth of ops, it's not much.


----------



## MrDad0330

Pardom a dumb question. What is BSS or an experimental payload. Also, do you think there is a chance D will petition to change D11's transmissions site to be at 101.6 now and just put D12 in the 99.2 spot next year?


----------



## Sixto

MrDad0330 said:


> Pardom a dumb question. What is BSS or an experimental payload. Also, do you think there is a chance D will petition to change D11's transmissions site to be at 101.6 now and just put D12 in the 99.2 spot next year?


BSS is: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261

And tested in the following way: https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=85637&x=

Nop, the plan for D11 is: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286


----------



## LameLefty

MrDad0330 said:


> Pardom a dumb question. What is BSS or an experimental payload. Also, do you think there is a chance D will petition to change D11's transmissions site to be at 101.6 now and just put D12 in the 99.2 spot next year?


I don't mean to be rude, but the BSS questions are answered in just the last couple pages of the thread.

Anyway, basically it's another, very-recently approved set of frequencies for satellite broadcasting to the home. Directv put an experimental BSS payload onto D11 and is apparently testing that now at its current location (per the FCC documents found today).

As for transmitting from 101.6, that cannot happen. D11's primary payload is Ka band transponders and current dish/LNB combinations cannot see Ka band from anything except 99 and 103.

D12 won't be shipped for launch for at least another year, and as it's basically a spare for D10 and 11. On the other hand, it may well be retrofitted with a bigger BSS payload, depending on how the FCC rules on the pending license requests.


----------



## Smthkd

LameLefty said:


> .....D12 won't be shipped for launch for at least another year, and *as it's basically a spare for D10 and 11.* On the other hand, it may well be retrofitted with a bigger BSS payload, depending on how the FCC rules on the pending license requests.


Not quite accurate Lefty, D12 is no longer a spare and will be used for further expansion of HD. Chase Carey announced this a few months ago. D12 will officially expand D* HD capacity to 200 HD channels. However a retrofit for BSS payload is an interesting posiblilty.


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Not quite accurate Lefty, D12 is no longer a spare and will be used for further expansion of HD. Chase Carey announced this a few months ago. D12 will officially expand D* HD capacity to 200 HD channels. However a retrofit for BSS payload is an interesting posiblilty.


Yeah I know. I also know from Tom's threads about Ka band stuff, that it's not at all clear what role, exactly, D12 can fill at the existing slots and transponder assignments, given all the current sats, FCC licenses, etc. What it CAN do is serve as an in-orbit spare rather than a ground spare, off-loading some of the channels carried by the Spaceways, D10 and D12 in case of transponder failures and so forth.

But a BSS payload, coupled with a possible release of new receivers and such, could be interesting.


----------



## carl6

LameLefty said:


> Read my post earlier in the thread; I believe the "direction" makes perfect sense. Test the primary payload FIRST and confirm things are entirely as they need to be before doing the experimental BSS secondary payload at its assigned location.


I agree completely. I meant absolutely nothing adverse or contradictory by my post. Sorry if it implied otherwise.

Carl


----------



## Sixto

All making some more sense now ... (from 2006): http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-115964.​"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests authority to launch and operate a satellite to be known as DIRECTV BSS-99W in the 17/24 GHz Broadcasting Satellite Service ("17 GHz BSS") at the nominal 99° W.L. orbital location."

The future is bright ...


----------



## Paul A

So, like, it's all nominal. I can't freakin wait two more months but glad to hear there is a master plan and it appears to be right on target. Go D11!


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> All making some more sense now ... (from 2007): http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-115964.​"DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests authority to launch and operate a satellite to be known as DIRECTV BSS-99W in the 17/24 GHz Broadcasting Satellite Service ("17 GHz BSS") at the nominal 99° W.L. orbital location."
> 
> The future is bright ...


Very, very interesting indeed!


----------



## PoitNarf

Nice to see some new interesting activity in this thread


----------



## The Scotsman

Having read through the last few pages of this thread, I am seeing mention of 17 GHz. I had previously believed the Ka band was around 18 to 21 GHz. Has some additional spectrum been made available?


----------



## LameLefty

The Scotsman said:


> Having read through the last few pages of this thread, I am seeing mention of 17 GHz. I had previously believed the Ka band was around 18 to 21 GHz. Has some additional spectrum been made available?


That's the experimental BSS payload now apparently being tested at around 100.6W, as referenced in those same last few pages.


----------



## bobnielsen

The letter designations for frequency bands have changed over the years. When I was working as a microwave engineer, the accepted definition of Ku band was 12.4-18.0 GHz, K band was 18.0-26.5 GHz and Ka band was 26.5-40.0 GHz (each was based on a different size waveguide). The waveguide letter designations date back to World War II, but the military uses different designations these days and other designations are used as well.

Directv's use of the terms Ku and Ka are probably meant as a convenience. The actual allocations are DBSS (direct broadcast satellite service) and FSS (fixed satellite service). If I remember correctly, Directv obtained permission from the FCC to use portions of one of the FSS bands (there are several) for broadcasting directly to subscribers, although FSS was not originally intended for that purpose. The BSS frequency allocation is relatively new.


----------



## Sixto

Now just about geostationary at 100.7°.


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE104)
1 32729U 08013A   08166.68073632 -.00000105  00000-0  00000+0 0  1045
2 32729 000.0160 354.7900 0000667 224.3387 188.5631 01.00272062   998

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]06-14-2008 16:20:15[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	99
Inclination		0.016
RA of A. Node		354.790
Eccentricity		0.0000667
Argument of Perigee	224.339
Revs per day		1.00272062
Period			23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 784 x 35 789 km
Element number / age	104 / 0 day(s)

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#104(06-14-2008 16:20:15) [B]35,784 x 35,789 km[/B] (+25.9 hours, at 87.0 days, [B]100.70°[/B])
TLE#103(06-13-2008 14:24:00) 35,790 x 35,800 km (+28.5 hours, at 85.9 days, 100.69°)
TLE#102(06-12-2008 09:52:32) 35,796 x 35,839 km (+ 1.4 hours, at 84.7 days, 100.59°)
TLE#101(06-12-2008 08:27:28) 35,800 x 35,858 km (+18.0 hours, at 84.6 days, 100.58°)
TLE#100(06-11-2008 14:29:40) 35,801 x 35,858 km (+53.0 hours, at 83.9 days, 100.08°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## RAD

Sixto, do you mean 100.7 and not 107???


----------



## Sixto

RAD said:


> Sixto, do you mean 100.7 and not 107???


Yes.


----------



## curt8403

I have read the posts from the last few days, and reading about the testing that is being done at 100.7 (although I did not know about it) does make me feel much better. I was so worried, because D11s behavior without knowing about the testing at 100.7 made it seem that Directv had lost the D11, and that would be horrible. I thank all the posters who were able to contribute information about what was going on, and Kudos to all.


----------



## Sixto

For completeness, just went back and added all the timestamp data (+hours, +days) for TLE's #88 to #104 (today). Now everything's consistent from day 1 (for when we look back in the future someday). Had stopped when we thought we were done. But now lots more testing (BSS) and another move coming once testing completes.


Code:


TLE#104(06-14-2008 16:20:15) 35,784 x 35,789 km (+25.9 hours, at 87.0 days, 100.70°)
TLE#103(06-13-2008 14:24:00) 35,790 x 35,800 km (+28.5 hours, at 85.9 days, 100.69°)
TLE#102(06-12-2008 09:52:32) 35,796 x 35,839 km (+ 1.4 hours, at 84.7 days, 100.59°)
TLE#101(06-12-2008 08:27:28) 35,800 x 35,858 km (+18.0 hours, at 84.6 days, 100.58°)
TLE#100(06-11-2008 14:29:40) 35,801 x 35,858 km (+53.0 hours, at 83.9 days, 100.08°)
TLE#99 (06-09-2008 09:30:24) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 81.7 days,  99.48°)
TLE#98 (06-07-2008 16:01:47) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+13.1 hours, at 79.9 days,  99.47°)
TLE#97 (06-07-2008 02:57:49) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+ 7.1 hours, at 79.4 days,  99.47°)
TLE#96 (06-06-2008 19:53:36) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+11.7 hours, at 79.1 days,  99.46°)
TLE#95 (06-06-2008 08:10:36) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+45.2 hours, at 78.6 days,  99.46°)
TLE#94 (06-04-2008 10:56:07) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 76.7 days,  99.45°)
TLE#92 (06-02-2008 17:23:25) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 7.6 hours, at 75.0 days,  99.44°)
TLE#93 (06-02-2008 09:46:47) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.4 hours, at 74.7 days,  99.44°)
TLE#91 (06-01-2008 09:21:55) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.8 hours, at 73.7 days,  99.43°)
TLE#90 (05-31-2008 08:32:28) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+21.6 hours, at 72.6 days,  99.43°)
TLE#89 (05-30-2008 10:59:25) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.3 hours, at 71.7 days,  99.42°)
TLE#88 (05-29-2008 10:43:26) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+25.0 hours, at 70.7 days,  99.42°)
TLE#87 (05-28-2008 09:42:18) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+23.3 hours, at 69.7 days, +  1km)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


----------



## Dolly

I'm very happy D11 is fine  However, the talk about D12 seems to indicate that we may need new equipment from D* after D12 is up and working. That I'm not very happy about because installations can be awful! May be I'm just getting ahead of things here as I said I have a low panic level


----------



## Drew2k

Dolly said:


> I'm very happy D11 is fine  However, the talk about D12 seems to indicate that we may need new equipment from D* after D12 is up and working. That I'm not very happy about because installations can be awful! May be I'm just getting ahead of things here as I said I have a low panic level


Yes, you're getting ahead of things.


----------



## Dolly

Drew2k said:


> Yes, you're getting ahead of things.


Thanks Drew2k I needed that  I will wait until we have a D12 thread


----------



## mbuser

Sixto said:


> For completeness, just went back and added all the timestamp data (+hours, +days) for TLE's #88 to #104 (today). Now everything's consistent from day 1 (for when we look back in the future someday). Had stopped when we thought we were done. But now lots more testing (BSS) and another move coming once testing completes.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#104(06-14-2008 16:20:15) 35,784 x 35,789 km (+25.9 hours, at 87.0 days, 100.70°)
> TLE#103(06-13-2008 14:24:00) 35,790 x 35,800 km (+28.5 hours, at 85.9 days, 100.69°)
> TLE#102(06-12-2008 09:52:32) 35,796 x 35,839 km (+ 1.4 hours, at 84.7 days, 100.59°)
> TLE#101(06-12-2008 08:27:28) 35,800 x 35,858 km (+18.0 hours, at 84.6 days, 100.58°)
> TLE#100(06-11-2008 14:29:40) 35,801 x 35,858 km (+53.0 hours, at 83.9 days, 100.08°)
> TLE#99 (06-09-2008 09:30:24) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 81.7 days,  99.48°)
> TLE#98 (06-07-2008 16:01:47) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+13.1 hours, at 79.9 days,  99.47°)
> TLE#97 (06-07-2008 02:57:49) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+ 7.1 hours, at 79.4 days,  99.47°)
> TLE#96 (06-06-2008 19:53:36) 35,786 x 35,789 km (+11.7 hours, at 79.1 days,  99.46°)
> TLE#95 (06-06-2008 08:10:36) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+45.2 hours, at 78.6 days,  99.46°)
> TLE#94 (06-04-2008 10:56:07) 35,787 x 35,788 km (+41.5 hours, at 76.7 days,  99.45°)
> TLE#92 (06-02-2008 17:23:25) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 7.6 hours, at 75.0 days,  99.44°)
> TLE#93 (06-02-2008 09:46:47) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.4 hours, at 74.7 days,  99.44°)
> TLE#91 (06-01-2008 09:21:55) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.8 hours, at 73.7 days,  99.43°)
> TLE#90 (05-31-2008 08:32:28) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+21.6 hours, at 72.6 days,  99.43°)
> TLE#89 (05-30-2008 10:59:25) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+24.3 hours, at 71.7 days,  99.42°)
> TLE#88 (05-29-2008 10:43:26) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+25.0 hours, at 70.7 days,  99.42°)
> TLE#87 (05-28-2008 09:42:18) 35,786 x 35,788 km (+23.3 hours, at 69.7 days, +  1km)
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the complete history, pictorial view, and D10/Spaceway 1/D11 comparison.


So, it spent 12 days in testing at 99.4 and 4 days in transit, maybe another 10 days or so testing at 100.7, then maybe a week's transit time to 99.25. That would mean it parks right around July 1. Sound about right?


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Dolly said:


> I'm very happy D11 is fine  However, the talk about D12 seems to indicate that we may need new equipment from D* after D12 is up and working. That I'm not very happy about because installations can be awful! May be I'm just getting ahead of things here as I said I have a low panic level


 One step at a time. I think DirecTV is several paces ahead of everyone else pending the production release of D11. I can't wait.


----------



## tuff bob

Dolly said:


> I'm very happy D11 is fine  However, the talk about D12 seems to indicate that we may need new equipment from D* after D12 is up and working. That I'm not very happy about because installations can be awful! May be I'm just getting ahead of things here as I said I have a low panic level


I'm thinking all we need will be a new LNB. seems like the "110/119" stack could be replaced with Ka from 101, since we know 110/119 is replacing 72 and 95.

110/119 band > Ka from 101
110 & 119 become flex port locations
72 & 95 go away.


----------



## dragonbait

mbuser said:


> So, it spent 12 days in testing at 99.4 and 4 days in transit, maybe another 10 days or so testing at 100.7, then maybe a week's transit time to 99.25. That would mean it parks right around July 1. Sound about right?


Actually, I would not be surprised to see testing at 100.7 with this experimental payload take longer than testing done at 99.4. Testing the main payload at 99.4 should have been routine as DirecTV already had experience with D10. 

With the experimental payload DirecTV might want to gather as much data as possible since the results of this testing could impact specifications of future dish/LNB designs, receivers, and payloads on future satellites. Considering how much money would be invested into those efforts DirecTV will want the engineers of these systems to have as much data as possible.


----------



## Sackchamp56

Does anyone think with this new testing that has come to light, that the September go live date that was floating around before could actually be true?


----------



## litzdog911

Sackchamp56 said:


> Does anyone think with this new testing that has come to light, that the September go live date that was floating around before could actually be true?


None of us here really know. Should be safe to guess that it won't be _later _than September.


----------



## QuickDrop

Sackchamp56 said:


> Does anyone think with this new testing that has come to light, that the September go live date that was floating around before could actually be true?


All DirecTV's public announcements have been August/September for new HD. Any date before that was hopeful conjure by us on the forum based primary on our knowledge/experience that testing at 99.4 should be done over a month before that time and our ignorance of the other testing planned. As it turns out, DirecTV actually knows more about their satellite and plans than we do. Who would have thunk?


----------



## mgtr

I am betting on July -- based on absolutely no info, just my guess and my hope. I will not be in a postion to see new HD until about 7/24, so that is my guess.
Probably as good as any other info.


----------



## Sixto

Mostly depends on how much BSS testing is required.

Will only take a few days to get to 99.225 and then a week or two to go "live".

All depends on the duration of the testing at 100.7.

I'd still think at least by August but we'll see ...


----------



## cforrest

Wonder if P Smith can pick up anything while testing at 100.7, if so, would be good since we can see when the signals go quiet. Would perhaps give us a heads up of testing be done and the Satellite is to begin moving to its final location.


----------



## P Smith

If you'll find for me right BSS LNBF, I'll pay for it.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> If you'll find for me right BSS LNBF, I'll pay for it.


I was wondering what bandwidth the 99/103 LNBs will support. I think the L.O. is approx. 19.05 GHz so 17.3-17.7 would translate to an I.F. of 1.75-1.35 GHz (inverted). The horn just might work and we know the I.F. already works from .25-2.125 GHz.


----------



## P Smith

Can't find the post ( I recall it posted here ) with D11 transponder map picture; there was mentioned LOF1 - less then 19.05 GHz, more like 18.05 GHz


----------



## Sixto

Code:


TLE#106(06-15-2008 13:13:20) 35 783 x 35 790 km (+ 1.3 hours, at 87.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#105(06-15-2008 11:58:07) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+19.6 hours, at 87.8 days, 100.70°)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> Can't find the post ( I recall it posted here ) with D11 transponder map picture; there was mentioned LOF1 - less then 19.05 GHz, more like 18.05 GHz


You are correct. The Ka-low frequency range is 18.3-18.8 GHz and the Ka-high range is 19.7-20.2 GHz, with corresponding IF bands of 0.25-0.75 and 1.65-2.15 GHz. The 17.3-17.7 BSS band would correspond to an (inverted) IF range of 0.75-0.35 GHz, which should still work. The only question is whether the horn feed would pass this band, but I expect that it would, although it might not be optimized for that frequency range.


----------



## P Smith

I wouldn't worried about feed-horn geometry - as it cover very wide range. 

Will try to catch any signal in 350...750 MHz range by my setup.


----------



## bobnielsen

Let us know if you find anything. Hopefully the LNB doesn't have an image reject mixer.


----------



## P Smith

That's hard to say, hope some activity at low level could be registered with IRM also.


----------



## HoTat2

Seems like the confluence of factors is definitely pointing toward an eventual approximately round 3 LNB (or at least 3 satellite slot) dish solution for 99W, 101W, and 103W. With an LNB that will receive on Ka band (18.3-18.8 GHz; 19.7-20.2 GHz). Ku legacy (12.2-12.7 GHz). And the new 17/24 BSS (17.3-17.7 GHz downlink) band.

Not to say DirecTV will completely abandon 110W and 119W. But at least for the mainstream everything appears to be headed for 99, 101, 103 west longitude on three satellite broadcast bands.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> This would be a very good time for Tom to post his thoughts.
> 
> Edit: Anyone notice this STA for 100.7 expires on 9/12/08? Bummer.


All I can say, now two days later, is this is BIG news. And fully explains why D11 isn't expected to go live at its real home for another couple months.

To summarize:

A new K band frequency range (Ku and Ka are subsets of the whole band), otherwise known as the BSS range, sometimes the FSS range, or reverse band (my favorite as it is the most descriptive) was made available by the ITU for satellite allocations worldwide. The FCC has been reviewing the technical information and requests for this allocation for the past several years, as the ITU allocation time-line has been known for at least 10 years.

BSS uses downlink frequencies that are the same as the uplink frequencies for Ku, 17.3-17.8 GHz. Hence the phrase "reverse band" as it is a reverse of the Ku uplinks.

In the US, 17.7-17.8 is already allocated for other services; so DBS can only use the 400MHz from 17.3 to 17.7GHz.

The FCC and current satellite players (manufacturers, operators, and DBS providers) have been discussing how the new frequencies are to be used in DBS. Much of the discussion is very heavy technical details trying to determine how much spacing the satellites will need to minimize interference using a reasonably sized dish.

So D11 clearly has been outfitted with at least one transponder in a "reverse band" package to verify the technical data and test everyone's understanding. I would not be surprised if DIRECTV didn't put at least one NATIONAL transponder and one spotbeam transponder in the package to test both scenarios.

I'm expecting much of this data will be presented to the FCC to help finalize the FCCs satellite spacing, power, and dish requirements. (But I can also see them keeping some of the nitty gritty data as proprietary...) 

To me this is very exciting news. DIRECTV's heritage has long been one of leading new technologies to the home; from their days at Hughes and now as DIRECTV.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dolly said:


> I'm very happy D11 is fine  However, the talk about D12 seems to indicate that we may need new equipment from D* after D12 is up and working. That I'm not very happy about because installations can be awful! May be I'm just getting ahead of things here as I said I have a low panic level


D12 is a long way off. I suspect that D12 will not require new equipment for normal home reception.

That said, BSS reception will require new equipment, at least in so far as new LNBs; possibly new switches. But since the allocations haven't been made yet, expect that it will be at least 3 years before a new satellite will be launched to use those frequencies.


dragonbait said:


> Actually, I would not be surprised to see testing at 100.7 with this experimental payload take longer than testing done at 99.4. Testing the main payload at 99.4 should have been routine as DirecTV already had experience with D10.
> 
> With the experimental payload DirecTV might want to gather as much data as possible since the results of this testing could impact specifications of future dish/LNB designs, receivers, and payloads on future satellites. Considering how much money would be invested into those efforts DirecTV will want the engineers of these systems to have as much data as possible.


That is my thinking DIRECTV has to first warm up the transponders as they would any normal testing; then they get into the whole new ballgame of testing power densities, interference, dish sizes, rainfade characteristics, etc. All the time gathering data to verify their expectations.

With that data, they will be designing new dish/LNB setups for the home, potentially receivers, etc. They won't hurry this testing. 


Sixto said:


> Mostly depends on how much BSS testing is required.
> 
> Will only take a few days to get to 99.225 and then a week or two to go "live".
> 
> All depends on the duration of the testing at 100.7.
> 
> I'd still think at least by August but we'll see ...


Sounds about right to me.


----------



## tpm1999

Although exciting...all this means to HD lovers is that It will take even longer for Directv to bring more HD to us paying customers.


----------



## RAD

tpm1999 said:


> Although exciting...all this means to HD lovers is that It will take even longer for Directv to bring more HD to us paying customers.


A little short term pain for what could be some long term gain. Wouldn't it be nice to have a bunch more bandwidth that D* could use at 99/101/103 to add more HD programming vs. having to add more satellite positions that make it harder for some folks to get LOS to?


----------



## bobnielsen

tpm1999 said:


> Although exciting...all this means to HD lovers is that It will take even longer for Directv to bring more HD to us paying customers.


The price for progress.


----------



## raoul5788

Tom Robertson said:


> D12 is a long way off. I suspect that D12 will not require new equipment for normal home reception.


If it is a ka sat and goes at 101, how could it not require new equipment? The current lnb arrays will not receive ka at 101.


----------



## bobnielsen

raoul5788 said:


> If it is a ka sat and goes at 101, how could it not require new equipment? The current lnb arrays will not receive ka at 101.


Directv has never said it would go at 101. There are still available CONUS transponder slots at 103 and there will probably be some at 99 after D11 is functioning. I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up at 103, partially to fill in for the problem D10 spotbeams (while a CONUS beam and a spotbeam cannot share the same frequency, there is some latitude in being able to switch a particular transponder frequency between CONUS and spotbeam usage).


----------



## QuickDrop

tpm1999 said:


> Although exciting...all this means to HD lovers is that It will take even longer for Directv to bring more HD to us paying customers.


How does this qualify as "even longer?" DirecTV has always given Aug/Sept as the time to expect more HD channels.


----------



## raoul5788

bobnielsen said:


> Directv has never said it would go at 101. There are still available CONUS transponder slots at 103 and there will probably be some at 99 after D11 is functioning. I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up at 103, partially to fill in for the problem D10 spotbeams (while a CONUS beam and a spotbeam cannot share the same frequency, there is some latitude in being able to switch a particular transponder frequency between CONUS and spotbeam usage).


All of the talk here was about D12 going to 101. Although that means nothing since we don't determine such things, if that is where it goes, wouldn't new lnbs be needed?


----------



## bobnielsen

raoul5788 said:


> All of the talk here was about D12 going to 101. Although that means nothing since we don't determine such things, if that is where it goes, wouldn't new lnbs be needed?


Yes, but it would need to cover both Ka and Ku, which would probably be a bit of a design challenge.


----------



## jazzyjez

Just as a curious side point... last night I was thinking about the moon and its effect on the earth (tides, etc.) and wondered just how much does it affect the orbit of a satellite such as D11. Getting online this morning, I did a quick search of this thread and saw a few comments that refer to this, but I didn't find anything that says how much of an effect it is.
Is this something that needs to be routinely corrected every 28 or 14 days, or are DBS allowed to drift because of lunar and other gravitational forces, drag, solar wind(?), and other cumulative errors until such time that a correction has to be made? Perhaps these effects are so small that there are no routine adjustments and they're just done as needed.
Are there actually rules that define how far a satellite may drift before the FCC step in with a warning, or does it never even come close to that - presumably because there would simply be a customer outcry due to poor reception before that would occur?
Hey guys - once again, as with D10, this thread is a fascinating read - many thanks to the people that really take the time explaining this (we all know who they are!).


----------



## 1948GG

raoul5788 said:


> All of the talk here was about D12 going to 101. Although that means nothing since we don't determine such things, if that is where it goes, wouldn't new lnbs be needed?


'Talk'... extremely idle 'sheer speculation'..? Yes.

Listen, the basic design parameters of the 'system' are already in place. I've pointed out before, to apparently deaf ears here (I do realize that most of the folks on this 'board' are super non-technical, but really...) But that here is the basics:

The Ka frequencies/bandwidth at the 99/103 slots is MUCH more than is actually currently in use. the BLOCK converters (the Ka LNB's) are VERY wideband. The band is not 'set in stone' like the Ku/DBS frequencies at the Ku/DBS (12Ghz) are (there are lots of other terrestrial and satellite licensees crowded around that band).

The Ka band is, by contrast, the 'wild west'. A few years ago (10-20) there were all kinds of 'plans' by various companies to utilize fairly huge chunks of bandwidth in the 18Ghz Ka area. Terrestrial. Those companies are now in the dustbin of telecommunications history.

It's a 'build it and they will licenses it' situation at present. There is absolutely nothing stopping Boeing from creating a 'C' band (Ka C) further up or down from where the current A and B bands are. I think the FCC will simply bless it, and off they go. The number of actual licensed (and actual USERS) of these bands are very few, and most are extremely low power, short hops. We are deep into the age of fiber.

NO revisions or changes to current Dishs/LNB's, receivers, or any other consumer equipment would be necessary. This was obvious to any engineer from the outset of going to Ka. The ultimate advantages are so huge that many feel that at the 'end of the day' (5 years from now?), the Ku/DBS band will be abandoned by DirecTV to their competition, which will be quickly fielding the 'SuperDish18' with a huge collection of (Ku/DBS band) LNB's poking out the front. Okie Dokie.

Again, we already have the (consumer) equipment to receive more bandwidth (Ka) from the 99/103 slots. No additional equipment or modification necessary. Good to Go. Build and launch more Ka Sats. DirecTV12 and whatever.


----------



## P Smith

Not that fast, 1948GG. There are a few reasons for develop BSS instead of using current Ka in those higher ranges.


----------



## evan_s

I can't see DirecTV abandoning Ku/DBS at 101 for quite a long time. As long as they have legacy mpeg2 SD broadcasting from there and they have a large install base of existing users they won't abandon that.


----------



## HoTat2

1948GG said:


> 'Talk'... extremely idle 'sheer speculation'..? Yes.
> 
> Listen, the basic design parameters of the 'system' are already in place. I've pointed out before, to apparently deaf ears here (I do realize that most of the folks on this 'board' are super non-technical, but really...) But that here is the basics:
> 
> The Ka frequencies/bandwidth at the 99/103 slots is MUCH more than is actually currently in use. the BLOCK converters (the Ka LNB's) are VERY wideband. The band is not 'set in stone' like the Ku/DBS frequencies at the Ku/DBS (12Ghz) are (there are lots of other terrestrial and satellite licensees crowded around that band).
> 
> The Ka band is, by contrast, the 'wild west'. A few years ago (10-20) there were all kinds of 'plans' by various companies to utilize fairly huge chunks of bandwidth in the 18Ghz Ka area. Terrestrial. Those companies are now in the dustbin of telecommunications history.
> 
> It's a 'build it and they will licenses it' situation at present. There is absolutely nothing stopping Boeing from creating a 'C' band (Ka C) further up or down from where the current A and B bands are. I think the FCC will simply bless it, and off they go. The number of actual licensed (and actual USERS) of these bands are very few, and most are extremely low power, short hops. We are deep into the age of fiber.
> 
> NO revisions or changes to current Dishs/LNB's, receivers, or any other consumer equipment would be necessary. This was obvious to any engineer from the outset of going to Ka. The ultimate advantages are so huge that many feel that at the 'end of the day' (5 years from now?), the Ku/DBS band will be abandoned by DirecTV to their competition, which will be quickly fielding the 'SuperDish18' with a huge collection of (Ku/DBS band) LNB's poking out the front. Okie Dokie.
> 
> Again, we already have the (consumer) equipment to receive more bandwidth (Ka) from the 99/103 slots. No additional equipment or modification necessary. Good to Go. Build and launch more Ka Sats. DirecTV12 and whatever.


I totally disagree 1948GG;

I see no evidence that the FCC allows the Ka satellite bands to be arbitrarily increased this way.

The two 500 MHz chunks of spectrum authorized by the FCC for Ka band satellite broadcasting along with the now 400 MHz 17/24 BSS band (in the U.S.) are "set in stone" as it is with the lower frequency Ku and C bands.

*The difference being how the newer Ka, 17/24 BSS, 500/400 MHz bands are internally divided and apportioned amongst transponder assignments is left to the individual design choice of the broadcaster. And not the FCC as was done with the standard channelization of the Ku DBS and C bands.*


----------



## cartrivision

Sackchamp56 said:


> Does anyone think with this new testing that has come to light, that the September go live date that was floating around before could actually be true?


The last approximate date for D11 going live, coming from someone at DirecTV, was "August", stated at the Lehman Brothers conference on May 29th.


----------



## HelenWeathers

I am in need of education. My understanding of 1080i vs 1080p was that they both required the same basic number of bits of data for a given picture quality but the difference was in how they were "painted" on screen. 1080i had two frames containing 540 lines each (one odd lines and one even lines) that were displayed in an alternating fashion. 1080p had one frame containing 1080 lines that are displayed simultaneously. 2X540=1X1080=same amount of data/bandwidth. Yes? No?


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> really find it hard to understand why D11 left geostationary.
> 
> *could easily have drifted from 99.4 to 99.2*.
> 
> I need to go back and look at D10.


After I saw that in FCC papers (Dish request for STA at 77W), I decide to post the number:
- a location of sat on the orbit required to keep it with a max deviation +/- 0.05°.

So, no such drift (99.4 -> 99.2 ) allowed.


----------



## purtman

There are so many posts here, so I'll cut to the chase. What is the time frame for D11 to be activated? Also, where does it stand in terms of testing? Thanks!


----------



## Dave

D11 will go on line in SEPTEMBER 2008.


----------



## Smthkd

Please!!! :backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

PLEASE . . .

:backtotop:

Thank you.


----------



## dms1

jazzyjez said:


> Just as a curious side point... last night I was thinking about the moon and its effect on the earth (tides, etc.) and wondered just how much does it affect the orbit of a satellite such as D11. Getting online this morning, I did a quick search of this thread and saw a few comments that refer to this, but I didn't find anything that says how much of an effect it is.
> Is this something that needs to be routinely corrected every 28 or 14 days, or are DBS allowed to drift because of lunar and other gravitational forces, drag, solar wind(?), and other cumulative errors until such time that a correction has to be made? Perhaps these effects are so small that there are no routine adjustments and they're just done as needed.
> Are there actually rules that define how far a satellite may drift before the FCC step in with a warning, or does it never even come close to that - presumably because there would simply be a customer outcry due to poor reception before that would occur?
> Hey guys - once again, as with D10, this thread is a fascinating read - many thanks to the people that really take the time explaining this (we all know who they are!).


What you are talking about is called station-keeping, and is the continual (as in on-going over the life of the satellite) process of maintaining the correct orbit and orientation.

Typically, for a satellite in geostationary orbit, you base your calculations on the assumption that the Earth is the only object in the Universe and that it is a perfect sphere with uniform mass distribution. The gravitational effects of the sun and the moon, together with the solar wind and perturbations caused by the asymmetry of the Earth, mean that there will be a continual drift from the ideal (calculated) orbit and this is corrected when it reaches a certain pre-defined limit. What the acceptable error is will depend somewhat on the application of the satellite.

I believe that station-keeping typically requires a delta-V budget of about 50 m/s per year for a satellite in GSO, and it is this that limits the usable life of most satellites. In other words, they run out of fuel!


----------



## LameLefty

> I believe that station-keeping typically requires a delta-V budget of about 50 m/s per year for a satellite in GSO,


Interesting. I never knew what the rule-of-thumb was for GSO.



> and it is this that limits the usable life of most satellites. In other words, they run out of fuel!


Which, for those who've been following this long, strange thread for awhile, is why GSO satellite designers use technologies like XIPS (xenon ion propulsion) for station-keeping. Very low thrust and low acceleration, but tremendously high specific impulse (ISP), which is a short-hand way of referring to the efficiency of a rocket motor. A chemical engine such as the space shuttle main engine may have an ISP in the range of 360 seconds, whereas an ion engine may easily be ten times higher. Due to the very low thrust, it takes longer to achieve your desired velocity change, but you use very, very little fuel to do it.

Here's a nicely-detailed fact-sheet I found from Boeing specifically on their XIPS systems . . . great stuff for space geeks. 

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty, that is an awesome find!

Some cool details (averages of course):
4 daily burns for control in a .05° box
30 minutes of total burn a day
90% weight savings over previous chemical thrusters


Thanks!
Tom


----------



## HoTat2

jazzyjez said:


> Just as a curious side point... last night I was thinking about the moon and its effect on the earth (tides, etc.) and wondered just how much does it affect the orbit of a satellite such as D11. Getting online this morning, I did a quick search of this thread and saw a few comments that refer to this, but I didn't find anything that says how much of an effect it is.
> Is this something that needs to be routinely corrected every 28 or 14 days, or are DBS allowed to drift because of lunar and other gravitational forces, drag, solar wind(?), and other cumulative errors until such time that a correction has to be made? Perhaps these effects are so small that there are no routine adjustments and they're just done as needed.
> Are there actually rules that define how far a satellite may drift before the FCC step in with a warning, or does it never even come close to that - presumably because there would simply be a customer outcry due to poor reception before that would occur?
> Hey guys - once again, as with D10, this thread is a fascinating read - many thanks to the people that really take the time explaining this (we all know who they are!).





dewey said:


> What does this question have to do with 780p vs. 1080i resolution? Stay on topic!
> Seriously, I was hoping for an informed response to this question. thx


This entry from the Wikipedia may be helpful;

"(Artificial satellite) Station-keeping in GEO:"










Once a satellite has reached geostationary orbit, it seems natural that it should remain there. Life, of course, is not so simple because orbital perturbations cause the satellite to drift.

The principal correction required is to compensate for North-South drift. The geostationary plane (above the equator) is not aligned to the Earth's orbit round the Sun (ecliptic) or the Moon's orbit round the Earth, so the gravitational pull of the Sun and Moon drags satellites off the plane. Uncorrected, this would cause the inclination of the orbit to increase by approximately one degree per year. The average annual velocity change needed to correct this effect is about 50 m/s, which can represent 95% of the total station-keeping propellant budget.

Other drift pressures are also significant if uncorrected. East-West drift occurs because the equator is not perfectly circular, so satellites drift slowly towards one of two stable points. Solar radiation pressure, caused by the transfer of momentum from the Sun's light and infrared radiation, both flattens the orbit and disturbs the orientation of the satellite. Other factors, such as local irregularities in the gravitational field, also contribute less systematically to drift pressures.

Due to luni-solar perturbations and the ellipticity of the Earth equator, an object placed in a GEO without any station-keeping would not stay there. It would start building up inclination at an initial rate of about 0.85 degrees per year. After 26.5 years the object would have an inclination of 15 degrees, decreasing back to zero after another 26.5 years. Therefore, a lot of energy has to be devoted to maneuvers that compensate this tendency. This part of the GEO station-keeping is called North-South control.

The ellipticity of the Earth equator is causing an East-West drift if the satellite is not placed in one of the stable (75 degrees longitude east, 105 degrees longitude west) or unstable (15 degrees longitude west, 165 degrees longitude east) equilibrium points. Nevertheless, this part of GEO station-keeping, called East-West control requires significantly less amount of fuel than North-South control. Therefore, in some cases aging satellites are only East-West controlled. This would still guarantee that the satellite is always visible to a steerable antenna.

Taking into consideration the relatively long periods of operation of modern GEO satellites (up to 15 years) the delta-v expended over such a period can be substantial (about 46 m/s per year). It is therefore crucial for GEO satellites to have the most fuel-efficient propulsion system. Some modern satellites are therefore employing a high specific impulse system like plasma or ion thrusters.


----------



## ShawnL25

Too fun watching this place high jacked by resolution talk and anti-resolution talk. What I haven't seen mentioned is if D11 is still testing at 101 or if it was on the move to it's final location. 103 or 99? For awhile there where guesses as to when it would be parked and how many weeks after it would go live. I know by September 30 I'll be watching programming from D11. My question is does anyone have an educated guess as to when D11 may go live. Late July/August?


----------



## BWELL316

Did it take D10 this long to get online? Is Directv experimenting with D11 or just making sure they don't have the spotbeam issues like they did with the last one?


----------



## Ken984

BWELL316 said:


> Did it take D10 this long to get online? Is Directv experimenting with D11 or just making sure they don't have the spotbeam issues like they did with the last one?


They are experimenting with new technology. The details are somewhere in the last few pages, before the 1080 v. 720 talk got started.


----------



## LameLefty

BWELL316 said:


> Did it take D10 this long to get online? Is Directv experimenting with D11 or just making sure they don't have the spotbeam issues like they did with the last one?


According to some FCC documents found last week by others (thanks Sixto!), D11 is currently testing an experimental payload in the BSS frequency range (not its operational Ka band transponders) at 100.7 degrees W or thereabouts. It has temporary authority to test in this frequency band at this location until around mid-September.

It is expected by many, however, that it will be moved to its operational slot of 99.2 W and begin operations somewhat sooner, however, in order to support HD sports broadcasts by mid-late August.


----------



## Matt9876

Once they get over to the 99.2 slot they will have one or more hot transponders,but the software download that your box needs to see them won't be sent down till just before they go live with the new channels.

They are in no rush at this time, but it seems to me the longer they wait it gives the competition time to even the HD score.

If I were Directv I would push the gas pedal to the floor !!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Let us keep this thread on topic. Look for those other posts about resolutions in another thread.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

BWELL316 said:


> Did it take D10 this long to get online? Is Directv experimenting with D11 or just making sure they don't have the spotbeam issues like they did with the last one?


Post#2 always has the latest ...


----------



## oldfantom

Matt9876 said:


> Once they get over to the 99.2 slot they will have one or more hot transponders,but the software download that your box needs to see them won't be sent down till just before they go live with the new channels.
> 
> They are in no rush at this time, but it seems to me the longer they wait it gives the competition time to even the HD score.
> 
> If I were Directv I would push the gas pedal to the floor !!


All this geosynch stuff and TLE mumbo jumbo, I won't pretend to explain. What I do understand is the project plan. You develop a plan, you execute the plan. You execute to your milestones and your dependencies and move forward. What you don't do is change the plan as a reaction to what the market might do. Pushing the pedal to the floor sounds like a great way to miss an important sign.

Does someone have that "SOON" jpeg they can throw in here?


----------



## Sixto

oldfantom said:


> All this geosynch stuff and TLE mumbo jumbo, I won't pretend to explain. What I do understand is the project plan. You develop a plan, you execute the plan. You execute to your milestones and your dependencies and move forward. What you don't do is change the plan as a reaction to what the market might do. Pushing the pedal to the floor sounds like a great way to miss an important sign.
> 
> Does someone have that "SOON" jpeg they can throw in here?


The Plan:
Build D11 ...








Launch D11 ...








Move to Geostationary AND conserve fuel (67 days to geostationary) ...








Test D11 at 99.4 (Ka) ... 5/28-6/11 ...









Test D11 at 100.7 (BSS experimental payload) ... ongoing.

Move to 99.225 ... next.

Transmit new HD ... 3rd quarter.


----------



## Jeremy W

Matt9876 said:


> Once they get over to the 99.2 slot they will have one or more hot transponders,but the software download that your box needs to see them won't be sent down till just before they go live with the new channels.


No software download is required to see the new transponders.


----------



## steveken

Matt9876 said:


> Once they get over to the 99.2 slot they will have one or more hot transponders,but the software download that your box needs to see them won't be sent down till just before they go live with the new channels.
> 
> They are in no rush at this time, but it seems to me the longer they wait it gives the competition time to even the HD score.
> 
> If I were Directv I would push the gas pedal to the floor !!


Where do you get this stuff from man? I mean, comeon! Its been said time and again that a software update wouldn't be needed, plus it doesn't make any sense to need an update just to light up a new bird! Geez. LOL


----------



## curt8403

steveken said:


> Where do you get this stuff from man? I mean, comeon! Its been said time and again that a software update wouldn't be needed, plus it doesn't make any sense to need an update just to light up a new bird! Geez. LOL


mebee he is thinkin of the new DSS service, but not de new 99 bird.

(OH by the way, what species of Bird is it?)


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> what species of Bird is it?


Boeing 702.


----------



## steveken

hmm, looks like the mods didn't care for my reply to that question as the response is no longer there. 

Anyway, when does the next phone call take place where DirecTV tells how things are going either company wide or D11 specific? I am hoping they might tell us more about whats going on. 

And, I don't guess I followed the reason the move was made farther away from 99.4. Am I to understand that there is other equipment on the satellite that does other stuff? And that they have moved it over to where it is to test out that new equipment? What exactly does this other equipment do? And why would they waste space on D11 for this instead of sending up another satellite of some sort or something else to avoid delaying the activation of the sat? 

Just questions that have been running around my mind.


Edit: Yeah, the BSS stuff that simulated is talking about just below this message. Can someone explain to me what all that is about?


----------



## simulated

Any word on how the BSS testing has went? I'm curious to see if there was any interference for close by birds, either it be in the uplink or downlink.


----------



## spectrumsp

Since the first of the week here in Jacksonville, we have begun to see a lot of pixelation in our digital local feeds off of Directv...when you go to OTA, the signals are fine...

Could this be a result of the testing currently ongoing on D11? (I do not know which sat we receive our locals on)


----------



## petergaryr

spectrumsp said:


> Since the first of the week here in Jacksonville, we have begun to see a lot of pixelation in our digital local feeds off of Directv...when you go to OTA, the signals are fine...
> 
> Could this be a result of the testing currently ongoing on D11? (I do not know which sat we receive our locals on)


Interesting you mention that. Over in the Jacksonville, FL forum on AVS, we've been seeing a lot of reports of bad pixelation and out of synch audio for a few days now on the DirectTV feeds.

I was wonder the same thing---is this just a co-incidence or not?


----------



## syphix

Considering that D11 is at 100.7 (testing BSS close to 101), no....pixelation on HD channels would have nothing to do with D11...pixelation on regular SD channels that are fed off 101 _might_ have something to do with the BSS testing, but still not very likely.


----------



## d max82

syphix said:


> Considering that D11 is at 100.7 (testing BSS close to 101), no....pixelation on HD channels would have nothing to do with D11...pixelation on regular SD channels that are fed off 101 _might_ have something to do with the BSS testing, but still not very likely.


Jax gets SD locals off 119.


----------



## Tom Robertson

spectrumsp said:


> Since the first of the week here in Jacksonville, we have begun to see a lot of pixelation in our digital local feeds off of Directv...when you go to OTA, the signals are fine...
> 
> Could this be a result of the testing currently ongoing on D11? (I do not know which sat we receive our locals on)





syphix said:


> Considering that D11 is at 100.7 (testing BSS close to 101), no....pixelation on HD channels would have nothing to do with D11...pixelation on regular SD channels that are fed off 101 _might_ have something to do with the BSS testing, but still not very likely.


syphix is right on. Remember this testing is in a new frequency range that should not interfere with the Ka range of 99°, nor the backhauling at 101°. Likely any pixelation of your locals is related to how DIRECTV receives those signals and processes them.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

simulated said:


> Any word on how the BSS testing has went? I'm curious to see if there was any interference for close by birds, either it be in the uplink or downlink.


No word yet. My guess is testing has just started.


----------



## yuppers519

spectrumsp said:


> Since the first of the week here in Jacksonville, we have begun to see a lot of pixelation in our digital local feeds off of Directv...when you go to OTA, the signals are fine...
> 
> Could this be a result of the testing currently ongoing on D11? (I do not know which sat we receive our locals on)


Same here in upstate new york on HD locals


----------



## tkrandall

Sixto said:


> The Plan:
> Build D11 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Launch D11 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Move to Geostationary AND conserve fuel (67 days to geostationary) ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test D11 at 99.4 (Ka) ... 5/28-6/11 ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Test D11 at 100.7 (BSS experimental payload) ... ongoing.
> 
> Move to 99.225 ... next.
> 
> Transmit new HD ... 3rd quarter.


The sooner the better. I am starting to lose my 110W HD channels (ESPN, HD Theater....) due to large Oak tree growth, and I have no other viable spot on my entire property to simulteneously see 99/101/103, 110, and 119. I would like to be rid of any need for 110W or 119W.


----------



## Sirshagg

tkrandall said:


> The sooner the better. I am starting to lose my 110W HD channels (ESPN, HD Theater....) due to large Oak tree growth, and I have no other viable spot on my entire property to simulteneously see 99/101/103, 110, and 119. I would like to be rid of any need for 110W or 119W.


Firewood?


----------



## ddobson

DirecTV has killed more trees than most Papermills....


----------



## mgtr

^ Good one! I have contributed my shareof cutting.


----------



## spectrumsp

d max82 said:


> Jax gets SD locals off 119.


Just to clarify...

I did not see any pixelation off of the SD feeds, just the digital channels...we receive both analog and digital feeds from the local stations on D* here...

Are the SD and HD feeds off of the same sat?


----------



## evan_s

spectrumsp said:


> Just to clarify...
> 
> I did not see any pixelation off of the SD feeds, just the digital channels...we receive both analog and digital feeds from the local stations on D* here...
> 
> Are the SD and HD feeds off of the same sat?


Not normally. HD feeds are almost always off of 99 or 103. The only HD locals off of 110 or 119 are the NY and LA feeds.


----------



## Supervolcano

steveken said:


> hmm, looks like the mods didn't care for my reply to that question as the response is no longer there.
> 
> Anyway, when does the next phone call take place where DirecTV tells how things are going either company wide or D11 specific? I am hoping they might tell us more about whats going on.
> 
> And, I don't guess I followed the reason the move was made farther away from 99.4. Am I to understand that there is other equipment on the satellite that does other stuff? And that they have moved it over to where it is to test out that new equipment? What exactly does this other equipment do? And why would they waste space on D11 for this instead of sending up another satellite of some sort or something else to avoid delaying the activation of the sat?
> 
> Just questions that have been running around my mind.
> 
> Edit: Yeah, the BSS stuff that simulated is talking about just below this message. Can someone explain to me what all that is about?


D12 satellite is sitting in a clean room at Boeing.
They plan to launch it in another year or two.

APPARENTLY, what we think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location.

But why bother spending millions of dollars to send the satellite into orbit if their THEORIES on how well it will work turn out to not be true .... Sooooooo .... they are using D11 to test their THEORIES (since it just happens to be in the neighborhood and is not currently busy sending signals to their customers) BEFORE they bother trying to launch D12.

After they are done testing their theories at 101, they will move D11 to it's final location in the 99.2 slot and start broadcasting to their customers.

If their theories work, D12 will launch and get put in the 101 slot.

If their theories fail, D12 will either continue to sit as a "ground spare", or DirecTV will have to create another set of theories and use it for a different purpose.


----------



## LameLefty

Supervolcano said:


> D12 satellite is sitting in a clean room at Boeing.
> They plan to launch it in another year or two.
> 
> APPARENTLY, what we think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location.
> 
> But why bother spending millions of dollars to send the satellite into orbit if their THEORIES on how well it will work turn out to not be true .... Sooooooo .... they are using D11 to test their THEORIES (since it just happens to be in the neighborhood and is not currently busy sending signals to their customers) BEFORE they bother trying to launch D12.
> 
> After they are done testing their theories at 101, they will move D11 to it's final location in the 99.2 slot and start broadcasting to their customers.
> 
> If their theories work, D12 will launch and get put in the 101 slot.
> 
> If their theories fail, D12 will either continue to sit as a "ground spare", or DirecTV will have to create another set of theories and use it for a different purpose.


Not to burst a bubble I may have myself helped inflate, but Chase Carey has told investors that D12 will be launched in late 2009 to support a further expansion of HD. That's all he said - anything else is really speculation at this point.


----------



## Supervolcano

LameLefty said:


> Not to burst a bubble I may have myself helped inflate, but Chase Carey has told investors that D12 will be launched in late 2009 to support a further expansion of HD. That's all he said - anything else is really speculation at this point.


That's exactly why I said:

"APPARENTLY, what we think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location."

"Apparently" and "we think" were the operative words.


Chase Carey would look like a fool if he said what I said, only to find out the D11 tests at 100.7 wound up failing. He's leaving room in his response for their 2nd, 3rd, and probably 4th backup plans on how to expand HD bandwidth with D12.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Not all of us think D12 is going to 101°...


----------



## Supervolcano

Tom Robertson said:


> Not all of us think D12 is going to 101°...


APPARENTLY, what SOME OF US think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location.

Does that sentence satify everyone in here now?
!rolling


----------



## evan_s

Supervolcano said:


> D12 satellite is sitting in a clean room at Boeing.
> They plan to launch it in another year or two.
> 
> APPARENTLY, what we think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location.
> 
> But why bother spending millions of dollars to send the satellite into orbit if their THEORIES on how well it will work turn out to not be true .... Sooooooo .... they are using D11 to test their THEORIES (since it just happens to be in the neighborhood and is not currently busy sending signals to their customers) BEFORE they bother trying to launch D12.
> 
> After they are done testing their theories at 101, they will move D11 to it's final location in the 99.2 slot and start broadcasting to their customers.
> 
> If their theories work, D12 will launch and get put in the 101 slot.
> 
> If their theories fail, D12 will either continue to sit as a "ground spare", or DirecTV will have to create another set of theories and use it for a different purpose.


I seen no reason why D12 would end up at 101 broadcasting using BSS. It's currently configured like d10 and d11 are and would take a significant reconfiguration to be used as BSS. Not to mention there is no firm timeline as to when BSS broadcasting will actually be allowed. The most logical thing would be to put it up at 99 or 103 and use it to support more spot and conus transponders from those locations since it normally takes multiple satellites at one location to use the full available bandwidth. In this usage it should be able to be used with current dishes and receiver hardware. BSS is likely going to require new hardware but thats actually currently unknown.


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> I seen no reason why D12 would end up at 101 broadcasting using BSS. It's currently configured like d10 and d11 are and would take a significant reconfiguration to be used as BSS. Not to mention there is no firm timeline as to when BSS broadcasting will actually be allowed. The most logical thing would be to put it up at 99 or 103 and use it to support more spot and conus transponders from those locations since it normally takes multiple satellites at one location to use the full available bandwidth. In this usage it should be able to be used with current dishes and receiver hardware. BSS is likely going to require new hardware but thats actually currently unknown.


Well said...


----------



## HoTat2

Supervolcano said:


> APPARENTLY, what SOME OF US think they would like to do with it is put it in the 101 slot and use it's BBS capabilities to increase the available bandwidth at that location.
> 
> Does that sentence satify everyone in here now?
> !rolling


D12, like it's in orbit brothers D10 and D11 has no 17/24 GHz capabilities. And there are no known plans to retrofit it to operate on this band.

D11 is only carrying an experimental 17/24 BSS package to test and gather operational data on the viability of future satellite broadcasting on this band before assuming it's actual function of Ka band broadcasting at 99.225 degrees. Once the results of this test data is reviewed by the FCC, and determined to be acceptable. DirecTV will be granted a "Launch and Operate Authority"(LOA) for the construction of an apparently new series of satellites for operations on this new band, such as "BSS-99W" here;

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-115964

Reception will obviously require new customer hardware.


----------



## mattgwyther

Isn't the FCC requiring 4 degree for BSS spacing? If so putting BSS at the 101 slot eliminates the possibility for BSS at 99 & 103


----------



## Sixto

HoTat2 said:


> D12, like it's in orbit brothers D10 and D11 has no 17/24 GHz capabilities. And there are no known plans to retrofit it to operate on this band.
> 
> D11 is only carrying an experimental 17/24 BSS package to test and gather operational data on the viability of future satellite broadcasting on this band before assuming it's actual function of Ka band broadcasting at 99.225 degrees. Once the results of this test data is reviewed by the FCC, and determined to be acceptable. DirecTV will be granted a "Launch and Operate Authority"(LOA) for the construction of an apparently new series of satellites for operations on this new band, such as "BSS-99W" here;
> 
> http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-115964
> 
> Reception will obviously require new customer hardware.


Exactly.

BSS-99W has been referenced. Also saw a mild reference to BSS-103W (but there's no full document like BSS-99W).


----------



## Tom Robertson

mattgwyther said:


> Isn't the FCC requiring 4 degree for BSS spacing? If so putting BSS at the 101 slot eliminates the possibility for BSS at 99 & 103


That is to be determined. I've seen references to 2° and even 1°. My belief is that the FCC will go with 2°. And likely is exactly one of the things DIRECTV will be testing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bjlc

so the bottom line is this: WHEN is the sucker gonna LIGHT UP? when will we get some actual channels off the dopey thing? When does it add to my service..

that's the $64,000 question.


----------



## Sixto

bjlc said:


> so the bottom line is this: WHEN is the sucker gonna LIGHT UP? when will we get some actual channels off the dopey thing? When does it add to my service..
> 
> that's the $64,000 question.


Official Answer: 3rd Quarter.

Gut Feel: August

Optimistic: Mid/Late July

All depends on BSS testing plan which we have no knowledge of.


----------



## bobnielsen

The announced times have been September, August, third-quarter. Take your pick.


----------



## BEP1030

Supervolcano said:


> D12 satellite is sitting in a clean room at Boeing.
> They plan to launch it in another year or two. If their theories fail, D12 will either continue to sit as a "ground spare", or DirecTV will have to create another set of theories and use it for a different purpose.


D* could sell D12 to E*. Just joking.


----------



## Supervolcano

HoTat2 said:


> D12, like it's in orbit brothers D10 and D11 has no 17/24 GHz capabilities. And there are no known plans to retrofit it to operate on this band.
> 
> D11 is only carrying an experimental 17/24 BSS package to test and gather operational data on the viability of future satellite broadcasting on this band before assuming it's actual function of Ka band broadcasting at 99.225 degrees. Once the results of this test data is reviewed by the FCC, and determined to be acceptable. DirecTV will be granted a "Launch and Operate Authority"(LOA) for the construction of an apparently new series of satellites for operations on this new band, such as "BSS-99W" here;
> 
> http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-115964
> 
> Reception will obviously require new customer hardware.


Thanks, hadn't seen that doc or even heard of a future "BSS-99W" satellite until that post.

So this BSS testing has nothing to do with D12.

It's all about testing the BSS spectrum (?which is I suppose still theoretical as of 3rd quarter of 2006 when that seemed to be filed?) for the FCC and/or Boeing and/or possible future additions to the DirecTV satellite fleet beyond D12.


----------



## HoTat2

bjlc said:


> so the bottom line is this: WHEN is the sucker gonna LIGHT UP? when will we get some actual channels off the dopey thing? When does it add to my service..
> 
> that's the $64,000 question.


Well&#8230;

While I can sympathize with your annoyance and impatience here;

Still, D11 is hardly a "dopey thing." But is a quite sophisticated satellite. A technological marvel really. And because DirecTV has chosen to take advantage of this opportunity during D11's formal testing phase to also conduct this additional experimentation at 100.7W on the new 17/24 BSS band by using D11's platform to host this 17/24 GHz radio package. Is simply a choice DirecTV made. And is therefore not an indication of any shortcoming in D11's operational readiness to begin full broadcasting from 99.225W at any time.


----------



## smiddy

Any signals from D11 lately PSmith?


----------



## richall01

bjlc said:


> so the bottom line is this: WHEN is the sucker gonna LIGHT UP? when will we get some actual channels off the dopey thing? When does it add to my service..
> 
> that's the $64,000 question.


Where is my check! 

DirecTV has said September. My guess is they are waiting for some of the other networks (HBO's, Showtime and a few others to start in HD) and then add them all at one time. Also September is the start of NFL ST. That is when they need D11 to be up and running.


----------



## FHSPSU67

HoTat2 said:


> Still, D11 is hardly a "dopey thing." But is a quite sophisticated satellite. A technological marvel really.


Very nicely said and I'm glad somebody said it!


----------



## Ken984

BEP1030 said:


> D* could sell D12 to E*. Just joking.


E* would have no clue what to do with fully functional satellite.


----------



## Indiana627

Ken984 said:


> E* would have no clue what to do with fully functional satellite.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## jdphil99

After the BSS testing is completed and D11 moves to 99.2, will require further testing there (making sure everything is up and running, pointed in the right direction, etc) or will it be ready to go? I know it's already been tested at 99.4. I was just curious if it would need to be tested again after the move or if they just run through a quick check of everything, and it's ready to rock and roll.


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Any signals from D11 lately PSmith?


Nope, perhaps regular 5 LNBFs cluster is not capable ? :nono:


----------



## steveken

I still don't understand what this experimental payload is or what it does. I guess I may have just missed that part if it was explained in here. I just have no idea what BSS or BBS, or whatever it is, is.


----------



## LameLefty

steveken said:


> I still don't understand what this experimental payload is or what it does. I guess I may have just missed that part if it was explained in here. I just have no idea what BSS or BBS, or whatever it is, is.


It is a different frequency band that those currently in use by Directv. This band has recently been allocated for direct-to-home satellite broadcasting and Directv is using this experimental payload on the D11 satellite while parked at 100.7 W to help fill in some engineering details about how this band operates at or close to existing Ku-band satellites at the 101 location. This data will help them with their later applications for an operational BSS-band satellite some time in the future.


----------



## evan_s

steveken said:


> I still don't understand what this experimental payload is or what it does. I guess I may have just missed that part if it was explained in here. I just have no idea what BSS or BBS, or whatever it is, is.


Short explanation. BSS is a new system that is being consider to allow sat broadcasters to reuse the frequencies that where originally designated for transmitting from earth to the sat for standard dbs systems to transmit from the sat to earth to give sat broadcasters more available bandwidth. The experimental payload is a small setup to test what effect that transmitting from sat to earth at the same frequencies they use for transmitting from earth to the sat. They want to make sure it doesn't end up break the stuff thats already in place.


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> Nope, perhaps regular 5 LNBFs cluster is not capable ? :nono:


Yeah, perhaps...17/24 GHz depending on how wide the LNBs are. Where are you tapping off to receive the signal?


----------



## Darkscream

LameLefty said:


> It is a different frequency band that those currently in use by Directv. This band has recently been allocated for direct-to-home satellite broadcasting and Directv is using this experimental payload on the D11 satellite while parked at 100.7 W to help fill in some engineering details about how this band operates at or close to existing Ku-band satellites at the 101 location. This data will help them with their later applications for an operational BSS-band satellite some time in the future.


Okay I think I understand all that you say here. However....

What does all this BSS Stuff really mean to me as your average Directv user ? 
Better quality signal? 
More Channels? 
More or Better anything?

I am assuming it means something to me as a customer - or why is Directv doing this testing ? 
There surely has to be some benefit to Directv letting itself be a guinea pig here.
Or if all this testing is not for some financial or customer benefit - then why bother doing it at all.

Just curious I guess 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mattgwyther

Darkscream said:


> Okay I think I understand all that you say here. However....
> 
> What does all this BSS Stuff really mean to me as your average Directv user ?
> Better quality signal?
> More Channels?
> More or Better anything?
> 
> I am assuming it means something to me as a customer - or why is Directv doing this testing ?
> There surely has to be some benefit to Directv letting itself be a guinea pig here.
> Or if all this testing is not for some financial or customer benefit - then why bother doing it at all.
> 
> Just curious I guess
> 
> Thanks in advance.


BSS could add additional bandwidth at Directv's core satellite locations (99,101,103). What this means to us as customers is potentially more channels (in additional to the potential 200 HD capacity being advertized), potentially higher quality pictures on existing channels, and addtional services (VOD pushed from the satellite) without needing a larger dish and a second dish.


----------



## evan_s

Assuming DirecTV decides to use it it could mean any number of different things. The basic is that directv would have more bandwidth available. What they choose to do with that is up to them. They could how ever theoretically add more channels, use less compression etc.


----------



## bhelton71

mattgwyther said:


> BSS could add additional bandwidth at Directv's core satellite locations (99,101,103). What this means to us as customers is potentially more channels (in additional to the potential 200 HD capacity being advertized), potentially higher quality pictures on existing channels, and addtional services (VOD pushed from the satellite) without needing a larger dish and a second dish.


Sounds like the BSS stuff is a long way off though - ran across this when I was trying to read up on "Carry One - Carry All". The 'both parties' referenced is DirecTV and Dish.



> As both parties have attested,
> satellite construction and launch is a lengthy process, generally taking approximately four years. Both
> parties have applications for satellites in the new 17/24 GHz BSS service, but these applications are
> currently pending and it is expected that the construction of the 17/24 GHz BSS satellites will take three
> years or longer.


From: FCC Daily Business 3/27/08

So if they have started now - we should get some new stuff in 2013. Little too early for me to get that anticipatory feeling .

Hopefully they finish up the testing and get D11 in position soon.


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> Assuming DirecTV decides to use it it could mean any number of different things. The basic is that directv would have more bandwidth available. What they choose to do with that is up to them. They could how ever theoretically add more channels, use less compression etc.





bhelton71 said:


> Sounds like the BSS stuff is a long way off though - ran across this when I was trying to read up on "Carry One - Carry All". The 'both parties' referenced is DirecTV and Dish.
> 
> So if they have started now - we should get some new stuff in 2013. Little too early for me to get that anticipatory feeling .
> 
> Hopefully they finish up the testing and get D11 in position soon.


mattgwyther, evan_s, and bhelton71 are all right on. More bandwidth for more features, channels, without reaching that overcompression stage. Woohoo!

But wait--minimum of three years and new outdoor units before we'll see any of it... Ok still Woohoo! but some time down the road. 

The more timely Woohoo! is that DIRECTV still has lots of capacity at 99° and 103°. Now there is a big WOOHOO!!!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sirshagg

*woohoo!*


----------



## P Smith

Right at LNBF.


----------



## mattgwyther

Tom Robertson said:


> mattgwyther, evan_s, and bhelton71 are all right on. More bandwidth for more features, channels, without reaching that overcompression stage. Woohoo!
> 
> But wait--minimum of three years and new outdoor units before we'll see any of it... Ok still Woohoo! but some time down the road.
> 
> The more timely Woohoo! is that DIRECTV still has lots of capacity at 99° and 103°. Now there is a big WOOHOO!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


WOOHOO!!!!

Do we know for certain if the Spaceway 1 / Spaceway 2 / D10 / D11 cluster fills the entire Directv licensed KA bandwidth at 99 & 103?

Or can D12 / future sats be launched to add bandwidth at those slots with the existing customer hardware?

I know D10 has spot beam problems, I don't see D* launching D12 at 103 just to cover the faulty spot beams..... but I could be wrong.


----------



## HoTat2

bhelton71 said:


> Sounds like the BSS stuff is a long way off though - ran across this when I was trying to read up on "Carry One - Carry All". The 'both parties' referenced is DirecTV and Dish.
> 
> From: FCC Daily Business 3/27/08
> 
> So if they have started now - we should get some new stuff in 2013. Little too early for me to get that anticipatory feeling .
> 
> Hopefully they finish up the testing and get D11 in position soon.


It may be years away, but as I posted sometime earlier it appears DirecTV's ultimate goal is to eventually move all (or virtually all) of its programming and interactive services, present and future, to co-located satellite groups at 99, 101, and 103 west. And operating some or all the slots on three bands at Ku, Ka, and now 17/24 BSS. Communicating to newer subscribers on an approximately round dish, which is slightly larger than the standard 18" X 20" single slot dish today.

As for what this means for DirecTV's other satellite slots. I assume the leased transponders on Galaxy IIIC at 95W for international programming in time will simply be relinquished. And the operations at 72.5W will be returned to Canada. However what this means for the future of the 110 and 119 west slots, is anyone's guess.


----------



## mattgwyther

This might be a little off topic, but am I the only one concerned about how fast D10 "filled up"? 

If D11 fills as quickly at D10, we will be in the same limited bandwidth condition in just over a year with no more new HD channels and only D12 as a hope for relief (If it can find a broadcast position). 

It seems to me with all the new HD channels announced and speculated for D11, we are going to be really close to having channels shut down for Sunday Ticket again..... I hope I am wrong.


----------



## lance30276

mattgwyther said:


> This might be a little off topic, but am I the only one concerned about how fast D10 "filled up"?
> 
> If D11 fills as quickly at D10, we will be in the same limited bandwidth condition in just over a year with no more new HD channels and only D12 as a hope for relief (If it can find a broadcast position).
> 
> It seems to me with all the new HD channels announced and speculated for D11, we are going to be really close to having channels shut down for Sunday Ticket again..... I hope I am wrong.


i think the conversion to mpeg4 will help.


----------



## loudo

mattgwyther said:


> If D11 fills as quickly at D10, we will be in the same limited bandwidth condition in just over a year with no more new HD channels and only D12 as a hope for relief (If it can find a broadcast position).


I don't think there is as much available HD channels as there was when D10 went live. From what DirecTV's web site indicates, the only HD thing they show as coming soon, is Family Channel. Just before D10 was fired up, they were telling of all the new HD channels coming soon. Haven't heard of any such plans this time.


----------



## carl6

mattgwyther said:


> This might be a little off topic, but am I the only one concerned about how fast D10 "filled up"?


That was all part of the plan. D10 and D11 are both part of the same expansion plan to implement HD broadcasts (national and local). With D11, what is currently planned will be accomodated with some spare capacity. Over time, that spare capacity will be used to add additional service. While that is happening, plans for the launch/use of D12, as well as plans for the implementation of BSS, all will work towards the three to five year plan. By the time all of that is implemented, something else will be in the five year plan.

With proper planning, DirecTV should never run out of bandwidth. It will be added as the requirement for it appears. Of course, that assumes continued customer growth, proper cash flow, etc. That is part of a good business model.

Carl


----------



## evan_s

mattgwyther said:


> WOOHOO!!!!
> 
> Do we know for certain if the Spaceway 1 / Spaceway 2 / D10 / D11 cluster fills the entire Directv licensed KA bandwidth at 99 & 103?
> 
> Or can D12 / future sats be launched to add bandwidth at those slots with the existing customer hardware?
> 
> I know D10 has spot beam problems, I don't see D* launching D12 at 103 just to cover the faulty spot beams..... but I could be wrong.


I would assume no. Just looking at what we've got at 103s and 103c we aren't using anywhere near all the transponders we could be. Look at 101 and pretty much everything is in use 103 is no where near that. I'd imagine they could get at least 1 more sat at 99 and 103 beyond spaceway 1/2 and d10/11. D12 should fit up there nicely and d13? if they decide they need it.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mattgwyther said:


> This might be a little off topic, but am I the only one concerned about how fast D10 "filled up"?
> 
> If D11 fills as quickly at D10, we will be in the same limited bandwidth condition in just over a year with no more new HD channels and only D12 as a hope for relief (If it can find a broadcast position).
> 
> It seems to me with all the new HD channels announced and speculated for D11, we are going to be really close to having channels shut down for Sunday Ticket again..... I hope I am wrong.


D10 (almost) filled up very quickly as many channels were ready to launch at about the same time. At this point, there are fewer channels ready to launch on a national basis. DIRECTV should be in great shape now, and even better shape when D12 launches next year. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> D10 (almost) filled up very quickly as many channels were ready to launch at about the same time. At this point, there are fewer channels ready to launch on a national basis. DIRECTV should be in great shape now, and even better shape when D12 launches next year.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Do we really know how full D10 is?


----------



## RAD

Radio Enginerd said:


> Do we really know how full D10 is?


I think a good indication is that the revenue producing PPV HD channels are shut down when they have to fire up the part time RSN HD channels. If D10 still had CONUS capacity left IMHO the PPV's would still be on make a buck of two even if the PT RSN's were on.


----------



## dduitsman

carl6 said:


> With proper planning, DirecTV should never run out of bandwidth. It will be added as the requirement for it appears. Of course, that assumes continued customer growth, proper cash flow, etc. That is part of a good business model.


They keep up with the national channel capacity, but HD LIL's are a different story. Sadly I'm in DMA 132.

Has there been any plans floated or rumors about how D* plans to fill that void? Different Sats with more spotbeams? Or maybe some new technology?

dd


----------



## FHSPSU67

dduitsman said:


> They keep up with the national channel capacity, but HD LIL's are a different story. Sadly I'm in DMA 132.
> 
> Has there been any plans floated or rumors about how D* plans to fill that void? Different Sats with more spotbeams? Or maybe some new technology?
> 
> dd


No one here knows anything for sure, but most expect D11 to be providing HD LIL's for approximately another hundred DMA's. I'm in DMA 99 and am anticipating D11 giving me my HD LIL's.


----------



## feschiver

The sat pos has little to do with the spot beams.
If you have a 5LNB dish and a now receiver you can get both MPEG2 & MPEG4. Direct TV is trying to get most subs to the new receivers so they can use the older Sat's for new LIL's. IMHO


----------



## Tiger62

feschiver said:


> The sat pos has little to do with the spot beams.
> If you have a 5LMB dish and a now receiver you can get both MPEG2 & MPEG2. Direct TV is trying to get most subs to the new receivers so they can use the older Sat's for new LIL's. IMHO


sat pos,
5LMB dish,
now receiver,
both MPEG2 & MPEG2

Geez, I'm sure there's a message in there somewhere.


----------



## paulman182

What exactly is an LMB? 

Maybe you guys mean LNB.


----------



## Indiana627

FHSPSU67 said:


> No one here knows anything for sure, but most expect D11 to be providing HD LIL's for approximately another hundred DMA's.


100 DMAs - that many? Wow I didn't think it could do that much. But I hope you're correct as this summer I'm moving from DMA 50 where we have HD LIL to DMA 156 which doesn't even have SD LIL.


----------



## HoTat2

Tiger62 said:


> sat pos,
> 5LMB dish,
> now receiver,
> both MPEG2 & MPEG2
> 
> Geez, I'm sure there's a message in there somewhere.


I assume the OP meant;

"sat pos"-----> satellite position?

"5 LMB dish" ------> 5 LNB dish

"now receiver" ------> new receiver?

"both MPEG2 & MPEG2" ------> both MPEG2 & MPEG4


----------



## VARTV

loudo said:


> I don't think there is as much available HD channels as there was when D10 went live. From what DirecTV's web site indicates, the only HD thing they show as coming soon, is Family Channel. Just before D10 was fired up, they were telling of all the new HD channels coming soon. Haven't heard of any such plans this time.


Remember all... any channel that's SD-only could become an HD channel. In December, Golf/VS HD is splitting and E!-HD will launch... both shopping networks (QVC, HSN) are very close to launching HD. Many, many premium channels will be in HD by the end of June. Fox News HD?, MSNBC-HD? I'd like to see the HD West Coast feeds of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon. I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon...


----------



## CKNAV

evan_s said:


> I would assume no. Just looking at what we've got at 103s and 103c we aren't using anywhere near all the transponders we could be. Look at 101 and pretty much everything is in use 103 is no where near that. I'd imagine they could get at least 1 more sat at 99 and 103 beyond spaceway 1/2 and d10/11. D12 should fit up there nicely and d13? if they decide they need it.


D* is not using all the transponders on 103s or 103c because they can't. They only have license for the transponders that are used now. That is not going to change. You have to understand that it does not matter if the satellite has 32 transponders, it is the licenses for those transponders/frequencies that count.


----------



## feschiver

Sorry guys had to drink reg coffie not decaf so my fingers go faster than my brain:eek2:


----------



## HoTat2

CKNAV said:


> D* is not using all the transponders on 103s or 103c because they can't. They only have license for the transponders that are used now. That is not going to change. You have to understand that it does not matter if the satellite has 32 transponders, it is the licenses for those transponders/frequencies that count.


I'm not sure that there are any individual "transponder licenses" issued as such for the Ka band as it is with the Ku.

This is the major difference in the FCC's regulatory standards for this spectrum. The DBS broadcast licensee is granted the entire 500 MHz band to operate from. And they may divide the spectrum into however many channels, and of whatever transponder bandwidth configuration it chooses.

The FCC considers this a less restrictive and flexible approach which is much more amenable to meeting the specific needs of the broadcaster, as opposed to the establishment of a fixed channelization plan as with the Ku broadcast band.


----------



## Herdfan

Indiana627 said:


> 100 DMAs - that many? Wow I didn't think it could do that much. But I hope you're correct as this summer I'm moving from DMA 50 where we have HD LIL to DMA 156 which doesn't even have SD LIL.


Don't tell them. Maybe the spot will reach that far and you can keep your HD LIL.


----------



## Indiana627

Herdfan said:


> Don't tell them. Maybe the spot will reach that far and you can keep your HD LIL.


Are there any maps of how big the spot beam circles are?


----------



## steveken

VARTV said:


> ... both shopping networks (QVC, HSN) are very close to launching HD.


Geez, what we need, shopping channels in HD!!! :nono2: Too bad we can't get rid of them and get some real channels in HD. Why do we need sooooooo darned many shopping channels?


----------



## Paul A

feschiver said:


> Sorry guys had to drink reg coffie not decaf so my fingers go faster than my brain:eek2:


Eagle PC has competition


----------



## Tom Robertson

According to the press releases, the 4 satellite constellation of S1/S2/D10/D11 can support 1500 LILs, which is only 300 short of all the main SD stations. (I'm not sure of the total number of low power SD stations.) The "Carry One, Carry All" rulings will eventually affect DIRECTV, but for now, they could carry the big 5 from all the DMAs without breaking a sweat. 

Another point to remember is how flexible the Spaceway satellites are. With 16 transponders, they can fill an entire 500MHz frequency range. Or they can use 32 transponder frequencies in hopping spotbeams.

Generally speaking, I think based upon the FCC documentation, DIRECTV mostly will use 24 transponder channels per 500MHz block, a compromise between how many spotbeams vs. wasted bandwidth between transponders. But they gots lots of cool things they can do, like different sized transponders... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

steveken said:


> Geez, what we need, shopping channels in HD!!! :nono2: Too bad we can't get rid of them and get some real channels in HD. Why do we need sooooooo darned many shopping channels?


You do know that the shopping channels pay for carriage on the system and overall reduce our costs for the channels we do want? I gots no problems ignoring more of them...


----------



## evan_s

CKNAV said:


> D* is not using all the transponders on 103s or 103c because they can't. They only have license for the transponders that are used now. That is not going to change. You have to understand that it does not matter if the satellite has 32 transponders, it is the licenses for those transponders/frequencies that count.


There aren't transponder assignments for DirecTV for 99 and 103. They where just given the entire 500mhz block to use as they see fit. They can use any transponders they want. I don't expect to see a full 32 transponders since they are using more bandwidth per transponder than DBS systems but they aren't maxing out there capacity at those slots.


----------



## steveken

Tom Robertson said:


> You do know that the shopping channels pay for carriage on the system and overall reduce our costs for the channels we do want? I gots no problems ignoring more of them...


Yeah yeah yeah. LOL, I know. It just confuses me how they can all stay afloat. Guess theres all the little old ladies out there that just can't resist a new doily or more porcelain pigs. hehehehehe


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> According to the press releases, the 4 satellite constellation of S1/S2/D10/D11 can support 1500 LILs, which is only 300 short of all the main SD stations. (I'm not sure of the total number of low power SD stations.) The "Carry One, Carry All" rulings will eventually affect DIRECTV, but for now, they could carry the big 5 from all the DMAs without breaking a sweat.


So do you think DMA 156 will see some sort of LIL (it has none now) once D11 is operational? Any odds you'd care to put on this happening?


----------



## hyde76

Sorry, having a little trouble following. What's a LIL and LIN-TV and a DMA? I live in the OC, I think it's DMA #2. Is there a list somewhere? And where can I find a copy of transponder 101 so I'll understand how many spot beams can fit on a transponder?


----------



## Indiana627

hyde76 said:


> Sorry, having a little trouble following. What's a LIL and LIN-TV and a DMA? I live in the OC, I think it's DMA #2. Is there a list somewhere? And where can I find a copy of transponder 101 so I'll understand how many spot beams can fit on a transponder?


LIL = Local Into Local (providing your local channels)
LIN-TV = a company that owns about 15-20 stations across the country that up until this month would not allow D* to retransmit their stations' HD signals
DMA = Designated Market Area (NY is #1, LA is #2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Any signals from D11 lately PSmith?


I don't see any additional activity in a range 250...2000 MHz using 5 LNBFs slim dish since I post my pictures.


----------



## Herdfan

Indiana627 said:


> Are there any maps of how big the spot beam circles are?


Not of the new Ka band satellites that I have ever seen.

But it could be well worth the $150 to have an independent dealer to put up a dish to see if you can still receive them.

It all depends on how much HD LIL's are worth to you.


----------



## Jeremy W

VARTV said:


> Remember all... any channel that's SD-only could become an HD channel. In December, Golf/VS HD is splitting and E!-HD will launch... both shopping networks (QVC, HSN) are very close to launching HD. Many, many premium channels will be in HD by the end of June. Fox News HD?, MSNBC-HD? I'd like to see the HD West Coast feeds of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon. I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon...


Of the channels you've mentioned, QVC HD and Fox News HD have already launched.


----------



## bruinfever

Its about time DBSTalk gets the credit for D11 info...Thanks Sixto...
http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/20/directv-11-satellite-tests-out-17-24-ghz-bss-bands/


----------



## dduitsman

Indiana627 said:


> Are there any maps of how big the spot beam circles are?


I found this one, but it's quite old and probably just the SD spots.

dd


----------



## dduitsman

FHSPSU67 said:


> No one here knows anything for sure, but most expect D11 to be providing HD LIL's for approximately another hundred DMA's. I'm in DMA 99 and am anticipating D11 giving me my HD LIL's.


Thanks for that info. Its great news - I had misread the D* press releases to mean that the combined sat bandwidth would get us to 100 HD DMAs (rather than 100 *additional* DMAs).

I had also done the math based on the 1500 HD LIL channel count and was somewhat hopeful.

Time will tell. I assume that the spotbeams will take lots more testing and tweaking than HD Nationals - can anyone guess at a timeframe for that?

dd


----------



## Ed Campbell

Jeremy W said:


> Of the channels you've mentioned, QVC HD and Fox News HD have already launched.


Fox can't be too proud of it. There's no mention at the Fox News website and a search for Fox News Hi Def - at that site - gets nada.


----------



## Jeremy W

Ed Campbell said:


> Fox can't be too proud of it. There's no mention at the Fox News website and a search for Fox News Hi Def - at that site - gets nada.


It's not being carried very widely right now, but I've seen screenshots over on AVS.


----------



## joed32

hyde76 said:


> Sorry, having a little trouble following. What's a LIL and LIN-TV and a DMA? I live in the OC, I think it's DMA #2. Is there a list somewhere? And where can I find a copy of transponder 101 so I'll understand how many spot beams can fit on a transponder?


What's an OC?

Just kidding.


----------



## n3ntj

Jeremy W said:


> Of the channels you've mentioned, QVC HD and Fox News HD have already launched.


QVC HD? Wow.. I can name loads of stations I'd rather have in HD first.


----------



## MrDad0330

I know FoxNews in now in HD. Does anyone know when we might see in in "D"? Probably when D11 fires up. (did i answer my own question?)


----------



## bobnielsen

I suspect that you did


----------



## dduitsman

D11 will affect me the most by providing the spotbeam capacity to get me HD LIL's (hopefully) - so my questions are:

*What is the process for setting up a spotbeam transponder?*
*How long (after relocation to 99.2) will it take to get all of these new spotbeams online?*
D10 had spotbeam "issues" that took time to resolve - so using D10 as a basis is probably incorrect. Does anyone here know what a "normal" rollout for spotbeams entails?

regards & thanks,
dd


----------



## grump

Speaking of D11, does anybody have any ideas how much, if any, other carrying capacity was used up by the BSS experimentation package? Do you think it required additional transponders/antennas/circuitry or could it just be additional software that didn't take any useful payload capacity away from the primary mission (of bringing me more HD). :grin:


----------



## Jeremy W

grump said:


> Do you think it required additional transponders/antennas/circuitry or could it just be additional software that didn't take any useful payload capacity away from the primary mission (of bringing me more HD). :grin:


It's definitely not software. It required additional physical equipment on the spacecraft. But since it's for experiemental purposes, it's a very small amount of equipment. And it obviously didn't take away anything from the Ka side, because D11 has exactly the same number of Ka transponders as D10. The biggest constraint in capacity is power, and the BSS equipment won't be powered up when D11 goes live, so it's inconsequential.


----------



## Tom Robertson

grump said:


> Speaking of D11, does anybody have any ideas how much, if any, other carrying capacity was used up by the BSS experimentation package? Do you think it required additional transponders/antennas/circuitry or could it just be additional software that didn't take any useful payload capacity away from the primary mission (of bringing me more HD). :grin:


Since DIRECTV does not yet have any licenses for BSS transmissions, other than a 120 day temporary permit, I am fairly certain that package is only one to three transponders. I'm guessing one NATIONAL at the very least. Potentially one for each polarization (unless that is switched on the one transponder?), and maybe one spotbeam transponder.

My guess is they are testing broadcast power requirements to achieve radiated energy levels against dish size as well as interference issues.

Recall that the downlink frequencies for BSS is the same as the uplink for Ku. Can one satellite uplink and downlink Ku and BSS? Or can they be colocated in one orbital slot? Questions to be answered by these tests, I'm sure. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## moonman

Wow!! I guess we can't complain about the wait...the last model 702 Satellite
launched by SeaLaunch(Thuraya3, was just handed over by Boeing...launch was Jan. 15th!
-----------------
The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today announced the on-orbit handover of the Thuraya-3 Geo-Mobile satellite, which will extend Thuraya's coverage to 170 countries in Europe, Africa and Asia. Thuraya-3 is the third Boeing-built 702 Geo-Mobile satellite for Thuraya Satellite Telecommunications, a leading multiregional mobile satellite operator. The satellite was launched Jan. 15 aboard a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080623a_nr.html


----------



## Ed Campbell

_Question: I know FoxNews in now in HD. Does anyone know when we might see in in "D"? Probably when D11 fires up. (did i answer my own question?)_

Fox News HD is carried by one cable service - 2 states.


----------



## P Smith

Ed, really ? - could you continue the offtopic's line in other thread ? You doing that not first time to drift offtopic here.


----------



## Sixto

Still sitting pretty at the BSS slot, for the past week ...


Code:


TLE#113(06-23-2008 13:11:09) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+ 8.0 hours, at 95.8 days, 100.69°)
TLE#112(06-23-2008 05:12:38) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+ 1.7 hours, at 95.5 days, 100.68°)
TLE#111(06-23-2008 03:28:49) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+12.4 hours, at 95.4 days, 100.68°)
TLE#110(06-22-2008 15:07:36) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+50.1 hours, at 94.9 days, 100.69°)
TLE#109(06-20-2008 12:58:38) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+51.8 hours, at 92.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#108(06-18-2008 09:13:27) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+42.3 hours, at 90.7 days, 100.69°)
TLE#107(06-16-2008 14:56:50) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+25.7 hours, at 88.9 days, 100.70°)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## mbuser

Sixto said:


> Still sitting pretty at the BSS slot, for the past week ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#113(06-23-2008 13:11:09) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+ 8.0 hours, at 95.8 days, 100.69°)
> TLE#112(06-23-2008 05:12:38) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+ 1.7 hours, at 95.5 days, 100.68°)
> TLE#111(06-23-2008 03:28:49) 35,782 x 35,791 km (+12.4 hours, at 95.4 days, 100.68°)
> TLE#110(06-22-2008 15:07:36) 35,781 x 35,791 km (+50.1 hours, at 94.9 days, 100.69°)
> TLE#109(06-20-2008 12:58:38) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+51.8 hours, at 92.8 days, 100.70°)
> TLE#108(06-18-2008 09:13:27) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+42.3 hours, at 90.7 days, 100.69°)
> TLE#107(06-16-2008 14:56:50) 35,783 x 35,790 km (+25.7 hours, at 88.9 days, 100.70°)
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


One week sounds like enough time. Hopefully it'll start moving soon.


----------



## Sixto

mbuser said:


> One week sounds like enough time. Hopefully it'll start moving soon.


It's not clear whether the BSS testing needs days, weeks, or month+ ... they may only get one shot at the BSS testing.


----------



## MrDad0330

Oh please move east D11......please


----------



## curt8403

MrDad0330 said:


> Oh please move east D11......please


doan vorry, it vill chust as soon as dey are dun testin de new DSS test package.


----------



## Jestr40

MrDad0330 said:


> Oh please move east D11......please


We should be patient with these tests. Otherwise, in three to five years when this technology is on DTV 15 and they have problems, we will all be complaining that they should have tested it LONGER on DTV 11!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Who is going to build a radar (or laser?) tracking system in their back yard so we don't have to rely on NORAD? 

My guess is Sixto or LameLefty... 

The testing is scheduled for under 120 days, the temporary permit was 120 as a contingency (and a round number for the FCC to work with...) 

I guess I'm surprised you guys haven't formally assigned shifts to watch for TLE changes... :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Who is going to build a radar (or laser?) tracking system in their back yard so we don't have to rely on NORAD?
> 
> My guess is Sixto or LameLefty...
> 
> The testing is scheduled for under 120 days, the temporary permit was 120 as a contingency (and a round number for the FCC to work with...)
> 
> I guess I'm surprised you guys haven't formally assigned shifts to watch for TLE changes... :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


with a powerful enough system, you could burn your name on the surface of the moon, but that would be unsightly


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Who is going to build a radar (or laser?) tracking system in their back yard so we don't have to rely on NORAD?
> 
> My guess is Sixto or LameLefty...
> 
> The testing is scheduled for under 120 days, the temporary permit was 120 as a contingency (and a round number for the FCC to work with...)
> 
> I guess I'm surprised you guys haven't formally assigned shifts to watch for TLE changes... :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


yep, we got 24x7 TLE coverage here captain!


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> yep, we got 24x7 TLE coverage here captain!


shouldn't that be Major, as in Major Tom


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> Ed, really ? - could you continue the offtopic's line in other thread ? You doing that not first time to drift offtopic here.


In the immortal words of Tennessee Williams...


----------



## curt8403

Ed Campbell said:


> In the immortal words of Tennessee Williams...


at least it is not the immortal words of Tennessee Tuxedo


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> shouldn't that be Major, as in Major Tom


still looking for the schematics for the radar tracking device


----------



## tcusta00

Ed Campbell said:


> In the immortal words of Tennessee Williams...


:righton: Very diplomatically-stated.


----------



## P Smith

"I was common as dirt" , yeah, right.


----------



## raoul5788

curt8403 said:


> at least it is not the immortal words of Tennessee Tuxedo


Chumley, let's go see Mr Whoopee! Tennessee Tuxedo will not fail!


----------



## Paul A

Why are there variations in how frequently we receive TLEs? Some days we get none and other days we get three?


----------



## mph21976

Its at 100.68 now, does that mean testing is done and its on its way back to its final resting place? (It was at 100.7 when I checked a few hours ago)


----------



## Paul A

mph21976 said:


> Its at 100.68 now, does that mean testing is done and its on its way back to its final resting place? (It was at 100.7 when I checked a few hours ago)


According to the TLEs in post #2, the last time it was recorded at 100.7 was days ago. This appears to be normal drift within an acceptable range.

Paul


----------



## mph21976

Sorry, I was tracking on n2yo.com, it had it at 100.71 either saturday or sunday, so I thought it was moving east.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Paul A said:


> Why are there variations in how frequently we receive TLEs? Some days we get none and other days we get three?


While NORAD checks the satellites very often, they typically only send out a TLE when there is a shift in the orbit. If the satellite is right where it is expected at a check, there is no need for a new TLE.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Paul A

Tom Robertson said:


> While NORAD checks the satellites very often, they typically only send out a TLE when there is a shift in the orbit. If the satellite is right where it is expected at a check, there is no need for a new TLE.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thank you Tom

So what happened when D10 moved into final position and it did so under days of no TLEs. Were TLEs being blocked under a "trade secret" and if so do you think the same thing would happen this time as well with D11.

Paul


----------



## Tom Robertson

Paul A said:


> Thank you Tom
> 
> So what happened when D10 moved into final position and it did so under days of no TLEs. Were TLEs being blocked under a "trade secret" and if so do you think the same thing would happen this time as well with D11.
> 
> Paul


I remember exactly what you refer to, where we didn't have any TLE updates and suddenly "D10 was parked". Alas, I do not have any clue as to how that could happen. I would expect that database to be maintained to prevent collisions so I remain as surprised as everyone else. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Paul A

Tom Robertson said:


> I remember exactly what you refer to, where we didn't have any TLE updates and suddenly "D10 was parked".


It was approx 9/9/07 through 9/12/07 with no tle updates. Could we see a repeat? Does anyone who tracks satellites ever see blackout periods before they reach final parking positions or was that just an anomaly with D10?

Paul


----------



## DarinC

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, I do not have any clue as to how that could happen.


DirecTV folded space and time.


----------



## seltech

DarinC said:


> DirecTV folded space and time.


Must have been the Faction Paradox trying to find the Doctor :lol:


----------



## ddobson

Paul A said:


> It was approx 9/9/07 through 9/12/07 with no tle updates. Could we see a repeat? Does anyone who tracks satellites ever see blackout periods before they reach final parking positions or was that just an anomaly with D10?
> 
> Paul


Its in case they bump into another satellite while moving it. They don't want any proof that they were in the neighborhood....

:lol:


----------



## Jon J

Probably just a temporarily discharged flux capacitor.


----------



## Sixto

D10 was a very unique launch with much press coverage. IMHO, don't expect same TLE blackout conspiracy with D11.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm figuring that after the 4th of July, things will be updated and stablize.

Some folks at DirecTV are living and breathing this every day, so there are no indications for any concern.


----------



## BWELL316

seltech said:


> Must have been the Faction Paradox trying to find the Doctor :lol:


I can see it now, all of my correspondence with Directv comes with the words "Bad Wolf" in it, like at the end of Turn Left.:lol:

One questions about D11 to keep this on topic, will this Sat be working just on bringing more HD Locals or should I expect some national hd channels as well?


----------



## Tom Robertson

BWELL316 said:


> I can see it now, all of my correspondence with Directv comes with the words "Bad Wolf" in it, like at the end of Turn Left.:lol:
> 
> One questions about D11 to keep this on topic, will this Sat be working just on bringing more HD Locals or should I expect some national hd channels as well?


Nationals as well as Locals. The expected capacity of D10/D11 is 150 nationals.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BWELL316

Tom Robertson said:


> Nationals as well as Locals. The expected capacity of D10/D11 is 150 nationals.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You just made my day, Tom.


----------



## ercjncprdtv

seltech said:


> Must have been the Faction Paradox trying to find the Doctor :lol:


Doctor who???? :lol:


----------



## Argee

If D10 can handle almost 100 HD nationals, then why can't D11 do the same and make the total almost 200 nationals between the two?


----------



## Paul A

Probably because they have a lot of locals to do as well and right now there are not that many nationals to add that are broadcasting HD


----------



## LameLefty

Argee said:


> If D10 can handle almost 100 HD nationals, then why can't D11 do the same and make the total almost 200 nationals between the two?


There are still quite a few DMAs that need local HDs - D11 will have a substantial task of adding a number of the remaining DMAs and balancing out the capacities of the existing satellites to provide spare capacity in the event of transponder failure.


----------



## Marvin

LameLefty said:


> There are still quite a few DMAs that need local HDs - D11 will have a substantial task of adding a number of the remaining DMAs and balancing out the capacities of the existing satellites to provide spare capacity in the event of transponder failure.


Dumb question, but in a DMA where D* doesnt even offer SD locals, would they just skip the SD locals and add HD locals and then downrez to SD or is that not possible? Not that I want my locals given its only 2 HD Channels + whenever it wants to be HD PBS plus SD only FOX/CW, all of which I can get with a cheap antenna.


----------



## V'ger

Paul A said:


> Probably because they have a lot of locals to do as well and right now there are not that many nationals to add that are broadcasting HD


Got lots of sports packages like Sunday Ticket, etc. to put somewhere. We already see some HD PPV channels go away during heavy sports nights.

To me, 150 channels is a nice round number. I just hope that when the day comes that they need more, there is another satellite up there to provide extra bandwidth.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Marvin said:


> Dumb question, but in a DMA where D* doesnt even offer SD locals, would they just skip the SD locals and add HD locals and then downrez to SD or is that not possible? Not that I want my locals given its only 2 HD Channels + whenever it wants to be HD PBS plus SD only FOX/CW, all of which I can get with a cheap antenna.


Not at all a dumb question. As far as I can guess, no HD's LILs will be put before SD's exist. At least until the cutover happens in February. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Not at all a dumb question. As far as I can guess, no HD's LILs will be put before SD's exist. At least until the cutover happens in February.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I agree, I have NEVER seen a Single Market On Direct TV that had HD locals and no SD Locals.


----------



## smiddy

curt8403 said:


> I agree, I have NEVER seen a Single Market On Direct TV that had HD locals and no SD Locals.


I think those will be coming sometime in February-ish.


----------



## DarinC

curt8403 said:


> I agree, I have NEVER seen a Single Market On Direct TV that had HD locals and no SD Locals.


BUT, if you look at it from a logic perspective... those markets that don't yet have any locals are for the most part, fairly small. You may reach the point where the bandwidth is worth more than the cost of just giving everyone who wants locals an HD receiver. Or maybe a stripped down HD receiver that can decode the HD signal and downrez it, but saves the expense of the HD outputs. Since everything is moving in the HD direction anyway, why continue down the path of transmitting redundant (SD and HD) signals in those areas that don't yet have either?


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> Not at all a dumb question. As far as I can guess, no HD's LILs will be put before SD's exist. At least until the cutover happens in February.





curt8403 said:


> I agree, I have NEVER seen a Single Market On Direct TV that had HD locals and no SD Locals.


According to this post over at AVS Forums, the DBS companies are starting to upgrade their LRFs to take the digital 16x9 feed and center cut it to 4x3 for SD LIL. Seems if they were going to be receiving the 16x9 feed which would presumably be HD, then couldn't they add HD and SD at the same time for DMAs with no LIL currently?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129290


----------



## loudo

Indiana627 said:


> According to this post over at AVS Forums, the DBS companies are starting to upgrade their LRFs to take the digital 16x9 feed and center cut it to 4x3 for SD LIL. Seems if they were going to be receiving the 16x9 feed which would presumably be HD, then couldn't they add HD and SD at the same time for DMAs with no LIL currently?
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129290


I would think that DirecTV would use just give everyone an HD receiver, like the HR20 or 21. Then everyone could use the 16/9 or 4x3 setting and other display settings, in the receiver, that would output HD or add pillar bars to the HD signal and downgrade it to an SD signal for analog sets. That way all they would need is to have one channel in HD, for each network. People with SD TVs could use the settings on the receiver to resize it to fit the 4x3 screen. This would free up a lot of bandwidth, only needing one channel per network.

The downside to this, from DirecTV's point of view, would be the HR20 or 21 receiver is more expensive than the SD ones.


----------



## Jeremy W

loudo said:


> I would think that DirecTV would use just give everyone an HD receiver, like the HR20 or 21.


Or the R22...


----------



## Indiana627

loudo said:


> I would think that DirecTV would use just give everyone an HD receiver, like the HR20 or 21. Then everyone could use the 16/9 or 4x3 setting and other display settings, in the receiver, that would output HD or add pillar bars to the HD signal and downgrade it to an SD signal for analog sets. That way all they would need is to have one channel in HD, for each network. People with SD TVs could use the settings on the receiver to resize it to fit the 4x3 screen. This would free up a lot of bandwidth, only needing one channel per network.


Good idea! Then if the customer ever upgrades to an HDTV they'd already have all the MPEG4 HD equipment they'd need from D*. All they'd need to do then is call D* to have HD activated and start paying them the extra $9.99 HD access fee.


----------



## DarinC

I feel so invisible.


----------



## bobnielsen

I have been using my HR21 with an analog set and it works fine. I can choose between letterboxed and cropped. The only problem is that on some channels there are a bunch of white dots at the top of the signal which show up when letterboxing (some sort of digital signal in the vertical interval, as I recall).

Hopefully Directv and Dish will be able to convince the FCC that dual-carriage doesn't make sense from a bandwidth perspective.


----------



## bwaldron

bobnielsen said:


> The only problem is that on some channels there are a bunch of white dots at the top of the signal which show up when letterboxing (some sort of digital signal in the vertical interval, as I recall).


If your TV allows you to adjust overscan (some do, some do in "service mode" only, some dont) you can get rid of that.


----------



## Newshawk

bwaldron said:


> If your TV allows you to adjust overscan (some do, some do in "service mode" only, some dont) you can get rid of that.


bwaldron, I see the same thing. It only happens with 16:9 programming on a 4:3 screen where the broadcaster hasn't adjusted the masking well enough. It's info in the vertical interval (the separator between fields of a TV frame)-I believe it might be the closed captioning.


----------



## dhines

bwaldron said:


> If your TV allows you to adjust overscan (some do, some do in "service mode" only, some dont) you can get rid of that.


can you explain in more detail how to do this? i have two sony wega analog tv's where i experience this.

thanks,


----------



## curt8403

dhines said:


> can you explain in more detail how to do this? i have two sony wega analog tv's where i experience this.
> 
> thanks,


vertical hold and position


----------



## smiddy

DarinC said:


> I feel so invisible.


Uhm, you need an avatar. That would help...

Seriously though folks, what is up with DirecTV 11 already? :lol:


----------



## Tigerman73

Testing new technology at 101 for future use and an increase in capacity if it works but I bet you already knew that!!!


----------



## DarinC

smiddy said:


> Uhm, you need an avatar.


Given my last comment, how's this one?


----------



## xrobmn

DarinC said:


> Given my last comment, how's this one?


HOT!


----------



## DarinC

Is that you, George Glass?


----------



## cartrivision

dhines said:


> can you explain in more detail how to do this? i have two sony wega analog tv's where i experience this.
> 
> 
> curt8403 said:
> 
> 
> 
> vertical hold and position
Click to expand...

Actually, vertical *size* and position.... either adjustable via the on-screen service menu on newer sets or on older sets via a small variable resistor pot at the back of the set that must be turned with a small screwdriver.... either way, it may be cryptically labeled VSIZ and VPOS .


----------



## Jeremy W

I wasn't aware that D11 has overscan issues, nor that any overscan issues that may appear could be corrected by settings in it's service menu.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Uhm, you need an avatar. That would help...
> 
> Seriously though folks, what is up with DirecTV 11 already? :lol:


Not much (yet)......perhaps after the holiday testing things will pick up with more new info and perhaps parking in the final location...


----------



## smiddy

DarinC said:


> Given my last comment, how's this one?


Oh man, there's a blast from my way back past. I think I liked Charlie's Angles better. ;-)

But still, will DirecTV 11 put her in High Definition? If so, then yes, she'll do, she'll do quite nicely!


----------



## davemayo

smiddy said:


> I think I liked Charlie's Angles better. ;-)


Yeah, I loved those beautiful crime fighting babes, Right, Obtuse and Acute!!


----------



## smiddy

davemayo said:


> Yeah, I loved those beautiful crime fighting babes, Right, Obtuse and Acute!!


!rolling

Ok, trig-boy!  :lol: (no offense)


----------



## davemayo

smiddy said:


> !rolling
> 
> Ok, trig-boy!  :lol: (no offense)


Sorry, couldn't resist that softball.


----------



## smiddy

davemayo said:


> Sorry, couldn't resist that softball.


Yep, it was right down the middle of the plate, phat! :lol:


----------



## Dave

BACK ON TOPIC


----------



## Tom_S

Not for nothing. But just how is "BACK ON TOPIC" back on topic?


----------



## Drew2k

Tom_S said:


> Not for nothing. But just how is "BACK ON TOPIC" back on topic?


It's an attempt at peer-moderation, which is always on topic and is always welcome in a community such as ours, where attentions can wander and intentions can be questioned.


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> It's an attempt at peer-moderation, which is always on topic and is always welcome in a community such as ours, where attentions can wander and intentions can be questioned.


Man, you are on a roll. You better sit down and write out a book tonight, your quill runith over! 

I hope that DirecTV 11 will grace our presence soon, I'm getting antsy. (as if you can't tell already)


----------



## DishDog

Tom_S said:


> Not for nothing. But just how is "BACK ON TOPIC" back on topic?


Hey Carlin is that you?


----------



## Paul A

Much anticipation for D11, are we?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Paul A said:


> Much anticipation for D11, are we?


Some more than others.... 

But yes...geting D11 activated is a welcome event, as there are a number of LIL cities being added, as well as national HD channels - stuff many folks are anxiously awaiting.


----------



## smiddy

DirecTV 11 , where for art thou?


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> DirecTV 11 , where for art thou?


It's not playing with Juliet, unless the test goes by that name.


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> DirecTV 11 , where for art thou?


Smidster ...


Code:


TLE#117(06-27-2008 08:55:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+44.0 hours, at 99.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#116(06-25-2008 12:58:19) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+ 4.9 hours, at 97.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#115(06-25-2008 08:06:13) 35,783 x 35,791 km (+20.0 hours, at 97.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#114(06-24-2008 12:07:52) 35,784 x 35,791 km (+22.9 hours, at 96.8 days, 100.70°)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Smidster ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#117(06-27-2008 08:55:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+44.0 hours, at 99.6 days, 100.70°)
> TLE#116(06-25-2008 12:58:19) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+ 4.9 hours, at 97.8 days, 100.70°)
> TLE#115(06-25-2008 08:06:13) 35,783 x 35,791 km (+20.0 hours, at 97.6 days, 100.70°)
> TLE#114(06-24-2008 12:07:52) 35,784 x 35,791 km (+22.9 hours, at 96.8 days, 100.70°)
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


Close, but no cigar....


----------



## feschiver

still at 100.7 acording tp N2YO http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


----------



## OconRecon

Any ideas what channels are coming when this thing hits our boxes?


----------



## LameLefty

feschiver said:


> still at 100.7 acording tp N2YO http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


Don't use that site as a first resort; check here instead. That site doesn't keep up with the latest orbital elements as quickly as the folks in this thread.


----------



## LameLefty

OconRecon said:


> Any ideas what channels are coming when this thing hits our boxes?


Lots more local HD for the areas that don't have them yet, plus quite probably the NFL Sunday Ticket Superfan channels in MPEG4, more premium HDs, ESPNU HD, etc.


----------



## mcbeevee

OconRecon said:


> Any ideas what channels are coming when this thing hits our boxes?


Check "Possible plans for the DirecTV-11 Satellite" in Sixto's post #2


----------



## Paul A

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some more than others....
> 
> But yes...geting D11 activated is a welcome event, as there are a number of LIL cities being added, as well as national HD channels - stuff many folks are anxiously awaiting.


I'm going to lose my freaking mind if they don't sart moving that bird soon!

Sorry, I want more HD channels, like yesterday.

I'm losing it!!!

"Look at the pelican fly -- come on, pelican!"

Ah, I feel better now...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

We're within 60 days....not much more time to wait for more HD.....


----------



## Drew2k

There's plenty of time to wait. There's always time to wait.


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> There's plenty of time to wait. There's always time to wait.


Yeah, but waiting sucks!  I want my DirecTV 11 PLEASE!


----------



## kevinwmsn

The hardest part of the wait is for the folks who don't have HD Locals especially for those who have problems with OTA.


----------



## ddobson

Well yeah I might have chased a couple of satellites around
All it ever got me was down
Then there was *D10* that made me feel good
But never as good as I feel right now
Baby *D11's* the only one thats ever known how
To make me wanna *HD* like I wanna *HD* now

The waiting is the hardest part
Every day you see one more *post*
You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
Waiting for *D11* is the hardest part


----------



## smiddy

ddobson said:


> Well yeah I might have chased a couple of satellites around
> All it ever got me was down
> Then there was *D10* that made me feel good
> But never as good as I feel right now
> Baby *D11's* the only one thats ever known how
> To make me wanna *HD* like I wanna *HD* now
> 
> The waiting is the hardest part
> Every day you see one more *post*
> You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
> Waiting for *D11* is the hardest part


All I can say is wow! Nicely put!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

ddobson said:


> Well yeah I might have chased a couple of satellites around
> All it ever got me was down
> Then there was *D10* that made me feel good
> But never as good as I feel right now
> Baby *D11's* the only one thats ever known how
> To make me wanna *HD* like I wanna *HD* now
> 
> The waiting is the hardest part
> Every day you see one more *post*
> You take it on faith, you take it to the heart
> Waiting for *D11* is the hardest part


 :lol:


----------



## FHSPSU67

kevinwmsn said:


> The hardest part of the wait is for the folks who don't have HD Locals especially for those who have problems with OTA.


Me too! Waiting for Johnstown-Altoona, PA DMA #99. I'll even be pleased when my 72.5 SD locals get moved to a bird that I receive.


----------



## feschiver

Sorry I thought N2YO was real time


----------



## jdspencer

kevinwmsn said:


> The hardest part of the wait is for the folks who don't have HD Locals especially for those who have problems with OTA.


I get all HD OTA that's available here. However, that's not as good as it sounds. We only get ABC, CBS, Fox and PBS via antenna. I wonder what DirecTV can do for us regarding NBC, The CW and MyNetwork? I do have the four major nets via DNS, so I'm not really in a big hurry for local HD via DirecTV.


----------



## PoitNarf

Holy crap, we've past 3500 posts in this thread :eek2:


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> Holy crap, we've past 3500 posts in this thread :eek2:


True anticipation!


----------



## Dolly

Sixto said:


> True anticipation!


And I also think that is what makes this thread go off topic so much. To the dismay of the Moderators :backtotop Everyone wants news, but at this point there really isn't any news


----------



## hdtvfan0001

All I know is I'm ready for more HD channels when D11 is ready to send them.


----------



## RDH416

PoitNarf said:


> Holy crap, we've past 3500 posts in this thread :eek2:


Hopefully, the importance of delivering additional HD LIL's to presently un-served markets, along with additional national HD channels, doesn't get lost in D*'s plans.


----------



## curt8403

RDH416 said:


> Hopefully, the importance of delivering additional HD LIL's to presently un-served markets, along with additional national HD channels, doesn't get lost in D*'s plans.


I am sure that directv will not forget HD LILs for those who do not have them yet,

(Also) Golf was invented when Bandabras Took knocked the head off the Goblin chieftan Golfimbul, and it rolled down a rabbit hole.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RDH416 said:


> Hopefully, the importance of delivering additional HD LIL's to presently un-served markets, along with additional national HD channels, doesn't get lost in D*'s plans.


That won't happen....HD LIL expansion is a major part of the D11 mission.


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That won't happen....HD LIL expansion is a major part of the D11 mission.


could you say that the D11 mission is to boldly go where no man has gone before?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

curt8403 said:


> could you say that the D11 mission is to boldly go where no man has gone before?


I could, but won't 

Actually, it would be better to say D11 will go where not other Dish or cable company has gone before (on now for that matter). :lol:


----------



## Paul A

I know who I'm voting for this November.....

President D10 and VP D11 and speaker of da house - D12!

Film (in HD) at 11, that's D11

Let's light er up already!!!

Hoot!


----------



## smiddy

Paul A said:


> I know who I'm voting for this November.....
> 
> President D10 and VP D11 and speaker of da house - D12!
> 
> Film (in HD) at 11, that's D11
> 
> Let's light er up already!!!
> 
> Hoot!


Yeah, the natives are getting restless! I want my DirecTV 11 already!


----------



## Afergy

Sorry for the lazy question, but I don't want to read over 3500 post. What is the estimated date for D11 to go live?


----------



## Paul A

Welcome aboard!!!


August or September. I'm hoping July 1st but I'm an optimist who thinks the satellite is half full


----------



## Tom Robertson

Afergy said:


> Sorry for the lazy question, but I don't want to read over 3500 post. What is the estimated date for D11 to go live?


You mean with all the info we've put into the second post, we forgot that "little" detail? 

I've updated post #1 to reflect the most recent "official" early estimate of 3Q 2008. (Which matches Paul A's answer.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Paul A

Predictions anyone....


Date and time (specify time zone please)


August 13th, 6am Eastern - or 5318 more posts, wichever comes first.


Full compliment of HBO channels, Travel, and PBS. And throw in a few dozen LILs please, ah yes and the much anticipated Flipper channel in HD


----------



## Paul A

Tom Robertson said:


> You mean with all the info we've put into the second post, we forgot that "little" detail?


Ah yes, details.

Status Report Major Tom..

Anticipation: nominal (pronounced nah-mee'-nal)


----------



## Tom Robertson

Major Tom to Ground Control:
"Am I sitting in a tin can
Far above the world
Planet Earth is blue
And there's nothing I can do"

(Tho this perhaps should be more from D11, than Major Tom...) 

"all is well"

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Dave

DirectV has said September 2008. It will get here. The Sat seems to still be at 100.7. We all would like for the Sat to start transmitting today. Not going to happen any time soon. My prediction is September 3, 2008.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Based on all the information I have, I predict D11 will be hot and broadcasting to us on *****, **, 200*. 

Edit: Dang SPAM and profanity checker. Runs tighter on moderators. Guess I can't say...


----------



## Paul A

Tom Robertson said:


> Based on all the information I have, I predict D11 will be hot and broadcasting to us on *****, **, 200*.
> 
> Edit: Dang SPAM and profanity checker. Runs tighter on moderators. Guess I can't say...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

Dave said:


> DirectV has said September 2008. It will get here. The Sat seems to still be at 100.7. We all would like for the Sat to start transmitting today. Not going to happen any time soon. My prediction is September 3, 2008.


They have said several different dates since the lasunch of D11, including, "September", "August", and "3rd quarter" (which started today).


----------



## fluffybear

My guess is July 30th for D11 to start broadcasting.

I would think DirecTV would want it to have it ready in plenty of time for football season.


----------



## Azdeadwood

Dave said:


> DirectV has said September 2008. It will get here. The Sat seems to still be at 100.7. We all would like for the Sat to start transmitting today. Not going to happen any time soon. My prediction is September 3, 2008.


Based on D*'s history, since they are saying September we will see a couple of channels on September 30th and the rest in January 2009.

Come on - when has D* ever meet their promised delivery date? - Can you say NEVER!

Don't get me wrong, I like what I have with D*, it is better than Dish or Cable (or over the air) but I got so frustrated with them when they were almost a year late with the expanded HD content they promised in 2006. Besides they still have not met the "over 150 channels" promise that they made back then.


----------



## mcbeevee

Azdeadwood said:


> Besides they still have not met the "over 150 channels" promise that they made back then.


The Directv press releases stated they would have "up to 150", not "over 150". That means as soon as the first HD group lit up, they met the promise. Anyway, my prediction is D11 will startup on Aug 6, just in time for the opening ceremonies of the Olympics.


----------



## karnac

Dave said:


> DirectV has said September 2008. It will get here. The Sat seems to still be at 100.7. We all would like for the Sat to start transmitting today. Not going to happen any time soon. My prediction is September 3, 2008.


September 8th 2008, that is when the 135th largest DMA switches from analog to digital. As a test for the entire nation.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Azdeadwood said:


> Based on D*'s history, since they are saying September we will see a couple of channels on September 30th and the rest in January 2009.
> 
> Come on - when has D* ever meet their promised delivery date? - Can you say NEVER!


After being on board since ~their 3rd month, I'd say pretty much every time they published a date for an upgrade, it came through on time.

If you're whining about some of the recent delays - which involved simple impediments like delayed launches - well, go find a satellite run by Microsoft.

For me, living in rural NM, DirecTV started out as my _only_ source of a broad range of TV content - and it has continued to be the best source.


----------



## gregjones

Azdeadwood said:


> Based on D*'s history, since they are saying September we will see a couple of channels on September 30th and the rest in January 2009.
> 
> Come on - when has D* ever meet their promised delivery date? - Can you say NEVER!
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like what I have with D*, it is better than Dish or Cable (or over the air) but I got so frustrated with them when they were almost a year late with the expanded HD content they promised in 2006. Besides they still have not met the "over 150 channels" promise that they made back then.


For years, they promised "up to 150" HD channels by the end of 2007. They delivered the great majority of available HD channels prior to the end of 2007. I have never seen any published statement from DirecTV promising anything in 2006. The great majority of channels absent were not ready themselves. There are real complaints to make, but this is not one of them.

Others will complain that they took too long with D11 as well, in spite of the fact that the most optimistic promise was August 2008.


----------



## bobnielsen

Don't confuse a plan with a promise. I don't think Directv has ever made any "promises". The 150 channel plan was for 2007, but problems with Sea Launch having nothing to do with Directv delayed the launch of D11 and it became "up to 100 channels".


----------



## gregjones

bobnielsen said:


> Don't confuse a plan with a promise. I don't think Directv has ever made any "promises". The 150 channel plan was for 2007, but problems with Sea Launch having nothing to do with Directv delayed the launch of D11 and it became "up to 100 channels".


The major hurdle was the fact that 150 HD channels didn't exist in 2007.


----------



## RAD

fluffybear said:


> My guess is July 30th for D11 to start broadcasting.
> 
> I would think DirecTV would want it to have it ready in plenty of time for football season.


IMHO, if push came to shove they could probably do NFL-ST+SF HD games this year without D11 being operational. They could just continue to shut down all their PPV channels, MPEG2+MPEG4 and have plenty of room to do NLF with their existing fleet. But having D11 up and running would just make things easier for everyone.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregjones said:


> The major hurdle was the fact that 150 HD channels didn't exist in 2007.


A key point often overlooked or not mentioned...


----------



## Stephens24

Does anyone know an estimate of how many DMA's will be added with this launch?


----------



## man_rob

Also, I only remember DirecTV saying they would have the "capacity" for up to 150 channels.


----------



## mcbeevee

Stephens24 said:


> Does anyone know an estimate of how many DMA's will be added with this launch?


_DIRECTV will also expand its delivery of local HD channels to more than 100 markets, representing 84 percent of U.S. TV households._

Directv 11 Launch - press release

This does not mean DMA1 through DMA100 will be available, since they have already added some DMA's that were above 100.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mcbeevee said:


> This does not mean DMA1 through DMA100 will be available, since they have already added some DMA's that were above 100.


Correct....the startups are based on when and what carriage agreements are signed for a market...they are not necessarily in "market size order".

In any case, D11 will signficantly ramp up their capacity, and many, many more LILs will be activated as soon as feasible to do so.


----------



## loudo

gregjones said:


> For years, they promised "up to 150" HD channels by the end of 2007.


I don't think the word was "*PROMISE*", I recall them saying that they would have the capacity for 150 channels. Don't think they promised anything.


----------



## justlgi

loudo said:


> I don't think the word was "*PROMISE*", I recall them saying that they would have the capacity for 150 channels. Don't think they promised anything.


The Commercial in question 

Couple of comments:

1. He's kinda scary, WTF?
2. While he does clearly says "The CAPACITY for 150" that 150 is in pretty HUGE lettering behind him. (Just saying) ;-)
3. There is no timeframe given.
4. I don't want fishing in HD so I'm happy to wait for some quality stuff to fill that capacity.


----------



## RAD

OK, here's the original press release from DirecTV that layed out their HD expansion plan for LIL and national HD channels.

http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=286625

I don't see where they said they'd promise any specific number of HD channels being available, just that they would have the capcity for up to 150 national HD channels and 1500 HD LIL channels. This has been on ongoing argument since D* announced their plans, people reading that they'd have 150 channels, not the capacity. DirecTV did mention dates for when this would all happen but remember these were all shot to hell when the launch vehicles kept having a minor problem with actually delivering a payload into the proper orbit.


----------



## mcbeevee

RAD said:


> OK, here's the original press release from DirecTV that layed out their HD expansion plan for LIL and national HD channels.
> 
> http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=286625


Back in 2004, having 10 HD channels was considered to be "one of the most robust HD programming lineups available"...times sure have changed!


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A key point often overlooked or not mentioned...


150 National Channels are available now...


----------



## Matt9876

Look for yourself how the first 100 HD channels of capacity were used, many Pay Per View and sports channels.

http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/dtv10.html

I'm sure D11s 50 HD channels of capacity will be used much the same way.


----------



## harsh

man_rob said:


> Also, I only remember DirecTV saying they would have the "capacity" for up to 150 channels.


This is key.


DIRECTV 9/8/2004 press release said:


> The next two satellites, DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 11, will launch in early 2007. These satellites will have the capacity for more than 1,000 additional local HD channels, more than 150 national HD channels, and other new programming offerings.


Still disputed is how they count channels; how they get from the 50 or so that they advertise to the 90+ that they claim when they ostensibly have the capacity for only 75 national HD channels.

Subsequent silly claims have been offered (so many channels by Q2 2007 and Q4 2007), but generally not in the form of press releases.


----------



## harsh

Matt9876 said:


> I'm sure D12s 50 HD channels capacity will be used much the same way.


If D12 is identical to D10 and D11, there should be room for 75 National HD channels, not 50 (assuming they can come up with a slot and the attendant antenna).


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> If D12 is identical to D10 and D11, there should be room for 75 National HD channels, not 50 (assuming they can come up with a slot and the attendant antenna).


this is only a guess regarding d12, but I guess it will be carrying a large DSS package rather than a bunch of Ka transponders. This is only a guess, (This message will self destruct in 6 hours.)


----------



## Matt9876

Made a typo on previous post but heard quote from DirecTV rep. that adding D12 would put them at 200 national HD channels capacity.


----------



## Ken984

As far as we know at the moment D12 is exactly like D10, KA spots and conus, it could be retrofit with a new bss package, but that is just speculation.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> This is key.Still disputed is how they count channels; how they get from the 50 or so that they advertise to the 90+ that they claim when they ostensibly have the capacity for only 75 national HD channels.


Nowhere did D* say that each channel would do only 75 national HD channels did they. If you want to get picky the 150 claim could also mean to include national HD channels via the Ku band satellites since it says once D10/D11 go operational then they'll have 150, not that D10/D11 add 150 to the existing capacity.

And IIRC, D* can decided to use the power capacity in D10 to add more national HD channels at the expense of HD LIL which is probably what they've done since we haven't see 500 new HD LIL channels since D10 went operational.


----------



## schlar01

Bah - nevermind.


----------



## Argee

So, we can assume the Spaceways are maxed out now?


----------



## curt8403

schlar01 said:


> Bah - nevermind.


I see Bah, and I think of Wahooka


----------



## gregjones

Everyone is focused on the word promise. They did not use that word. But "promising" up to 150 is equivalent to promising 0. They had already surpassed 0. The phrase "up to" or the word "capacity" is much more significant. Had they said "at least" that would have been a problem.


----------



## JLucPicard

I can't believe this thread has degenrated into the same old argument that has been hashed, rehashed and succotashed too many times already! Can we please let that branch of the anticipatory meandering die? Please???


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Some good points are being made....but...perhaps its time to get :backtotop 

D11 is within about 60 days of its target activation timeframe - September. A target is a goal to shoot for, and motly (but not always) hit.

Based on all the eveidence to date, things are going smoothly, and activation of D11 on or around early September seems very feasible.

In terms of capacity....the new bird has more than enough to activate numerous new HD LIL channels, as well as national HD new channels. In any case, there will be lots of new HD available when D11 goes live and the channels are fired up.

The whole 150 channels thing is meaningless, as what channels are launched and is all based on a project plan already under way and in place, as well as what carriage agreements have been signed. It is what it is, and when it will be.

We can speculate all we want, but it will happen the way DirecTV plans to roll things out.

Considering how much HD we now have, especially compared to competitors, I have no concerns about either the number of channels or timeframe. In either case, with the substantial lead DirecTV has over anyone else in HD content, I suspect its pretty safe to assume they won't be relinquishing the #1 spot.

As some have pointed out - only 2 years ago, we had less than 15 HD channels.

Now we need patience and perspective for another 6-8 weeks.


----------



## ActiveHDdave

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some good points are being made....but...perhaps its time to get :backtotop
> 
> D11 is within about 60 days of its target activation timeframe - September. A target is a goal to shoot for, and motly (but not always) hit.
> 
> Based on all the eveidence to date, things are going smoothly, and activation of D11 on or around early September seems very feasible.
> 
> In terms of capacity....the new bird has more than enough to activate numerous new HD LIL channels, as well as national HD new channels. In any case, there will be lots of new HD available when D11 goes live and the channels are fired up.
> 
> The whole 150 channels thing is meaningless, as what channels are launched and is all based on a project plan already under way and in place, as well as what carriage agreements have been signed. It is what it is, and when it will be.
> 
> We can speculate all we want, but it will happen the way DirecTV plans to roll things out.
> 
> Considering how much HD we now have, especially compared to competitors, I have no concerns about either the number of channels or timeframe. In either case, with the substantial lead DirecTV has over anyone else in HD content, I suspect its pretty safe to assume they won't be relinquishing the #1 spot.
> 
> As some have pointed out - only 2 years ago, we had less than 15 HD channels.
> 
> Now we need patience and perspective for another 6-8 weeks.


Ditto !!!It's summer go out and play


----------



## flippedout

Well said hdtvfan0001 - great perspective on everything. 

Can't wait to see what comes streaming down from the sky!


----------



## evan_s

curt8403 said:


> this is only a guess regarding d12, but I guess it will be carrying a large DSS package rather than a bunch of Ka transponders. This is only a guess, (This message will self destruct in 6 hours.)


I highly doubt D12 will be used for DSS. They have already announced a launch timeframe for it and DSS hasn't even gotten to final approval status yet. They haven't maxed out their usage at 99/103 slots yet so I expect D12 to go to one of those two slots and add additional spot and conus transponders. Additionally DSS reception will probably require at least some new reception hardware on the customers end so I don't see DirecTV using DSS until they completely max out their current system using Ka at 99/103. It doesn't make any financial sense to require those types of upgrades until they are necessary.

The other thing to keep in mind is with spaceway 1 and 2 D* has a great deal of flexibility in what they provide from those sats. They can be reconfigured on the fly between a conus transponder and a small spot beam and anything inbetween. It wouldn't surprise me to see a D13 or D14 sent up with the same config as d10 and d11 to give us 2 regular sats and the spaceway sat at both 99 and 103.


----------



## Tibs

My gut is they are launching D12 because of the D10 problems with its spots.


----------



## curt8403

Tibs said:


> My gut is they are launching D12 because of the D10 problems with its spots.


what problems, does D10 have problems with it's spots? I did not know that


----------



## bobnielsen

curt8403 said:


> what problems, does D10 have problems with it's spots? I did not know that


There is not a lot of information available, but there are apparently problems with some of the spots (the northwest part of the U.S. was mentioned).


----------



## wearsch

Dave said:


> DirectV has said September 2008. It will get here. The Sat seems to still be at 100.7. We all would like for the Sat to start transmitting today. Not going to happen any time soon. My prediction is September 3, 2008.


I second this prediction. 9/3 6am Eastern. Just in time to deliver extra HD LILs for the start of the NFL season on 9/4 on NBC.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

This is a D11 thread, right?

Just checking...


----------



## smiddy

Last time I looked it was the D11 thread.


----------



## crashHD

ActiveHDdave said:


> Ditto !!!It's summer go out and play


Not always an option. Some of us don't have outdoor tvs

I farm for a living. After sweating outside all week, I find a weekend of air conditioned couch potatoing preferable to outdoor play


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This is a D11 thread, right?
> 
> Just checking...





smiddy said:


> Last time I looked it was the D11 thread.


Where were the two of you the last three pages?


----------



## Azdeadwood

gregjones said:


> The major hurdle was the fact that 150 HD channels didn't exist in 2007.


Exactly, so why did they start running ads in late 2006 promising those channels were "coming soon" when they had not even launched D10? That is my issue. They kept backing away from the promises after they got so many complaints. I bought over $7,000 worth of HD TV's based on my reasonable expectation that "soon" was within a couple of months, not the 12 months it ended up taking to get to 90 channels.


----------



## Paul A

OK, when was the last TLE.... Was it on June 28th like post #2 says?

Seems like the rocket scientists bugged out whilst this thread was diverted off course.


----------



## Paul A

Azdeadwood said:


> Exactly, so why did they start running ads in late 2006 promising those channels were "coming soon" when they had not even launched D10? That is my issue. They kept backing away from the promises after they got so many complaints. I bought over $7,000 worth of HD TV's based on my reasonable expectation that "soon" was within a couple of months, not the 12 months it ended up taking to get to 90 channels.


Really? No offense, you seem like a nice guy and I'd like to go get a beer with you sometime but it sounds like you need a lawyer or a shrink cause you aint gonna work that out here. Have that lawyer define "soon" in the courts and let me know how it goes. Maybe that lawyer can get those poor saps who bought HDDVD their money back too... Is there a lawyer in the house?

Now, where are those TLEs...


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> Where were the two of you the last three pages?


Uhm, let's see, I had a softball game and had to make dinner. I turn around to see what is up with D11 and 3 pages of other stuff. I shouldn't complain though, I've been just as bad in the past.  :eek2: :hurah: :lol: !rolling


----------



## bakers12

Azdeadwood said:


> Exactly, so why did they start running ads in late 2006 promising those channels were "coming soon" when they had not even launched D10? That is my issue. They kept backing away from the promises after they got so many complaints. I bought over $7,000 worth of HD TV's based on my reasonable expectation that "soon" was within a couple of months, not the 12 months it ended up taking to get to 90 channels.


Please don't try to open this up again. If you want to discuss D10 or HD channels from months ago, start or join a different thread. This thread is for D11.


----------



## Sixto

Paul A said:


> OK, when was the last TLE.... Was it on June 28th like post #2 says?
> 
> Seems like the rocket scientists bugged out whilst this thread was diverted off course.


Latest is #119 on 6/30. A little weird ... been 3 different 119's.


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> Latest is #119 on 6/30. A little weird ... been 3 different 119's.


Thanks Sixto,

What could be the explanation of three #119s????

Paul


----------



## Sixto

Paul A said:


> Thanks Sixto,
> 
> What could be the explanation of three #119s????
> 
> Paul


Never been a definitive answer ... also were two 117's and three 110's ...


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> Never been a definitive answer ... also were two 117's and three 110's ...


As precise as one would think these TLEs should be, sounds like someone is hitting a wee too much whiskey at mission control.

Hmmmmm..... No wonder D10 could fly around to its final parking spot without being reported.


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> this is only a guess regarding d12, but I guess it will be carrying a large DSS package rather than a bunch of Ka transponders. This is only a guess, (This message will self destruct in 6 hours.)


Given that there are no other suitable replacements for either D10 nor D11, I'm pretty sure that D12 will remain as a spare for either of the satellites.


----------



## EaglePC

this proccess is taking longer then D10 where the D11 sat 103 ,did it blow up?


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> Nowhere did D* say that each channel would do only 75 national HD channels did they.


If they have 150 combined, it is entirely reasonable to infer that they have 75 individually. They are functionally identical.


> If you want to get picky the 150 claim could also mean to include national HD channels via the Ku band satellites since it says once D10/D11 go operational then they'll have 150, not that D10/D11 add 150 to the existing capacity.


No, the claim was that D10 and D11 would have the 150 national HD channel capacity. This is exclusive of any other satellites.


> And IIRC, D* can decided to use the power capacity in D10 to add more national HD channels at the expense of HD LIL which is probably what they've done since we haven't see 500 new HD LIL channels since D10 went operational.


CONUS coverage by spotbeam array was reportedly tested and found unsatisfactory. Given that each spot covers such a small area, it would take quite a few to give CONUS coverage plus the requisite AK/HI coverage which require more than one TP each.

Remember that it takes many times the power to get similar Ka beamwidth coverage out of a spotbeam horn.


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> This is key.Still disputed is how they count channels; how they get from the 50 or so that they advertise to the 90+ that they claim when they ostensibly have the capacity for only 75 national HD channels.
> 
> Subsequent silly claims have been offered (so many channels by Q2 2007 and Q4 2007), but generally not in the form of press releases.


No Harsh, DirecTV has not announced how they are distributing channels between satellites. You are just incorrectly inferring that. No, the sats are not identical, hence the BSS testing on D11. Again you are just assuming.

Yes they made announcements about when this capacity would be available. Plans with the satellites changed for various reasons. I'd think that you, being a Dish subscriber would understand that...AMC-14 now has the value of an AMC Pacer...Regardless of the when the satellites were launched DirecTV is still firmly in the lead for HD channels, and will remain in the lead for quite a while. Unlike cable and Dish, DirecTV won't need to ultra-compress their HD in an attempt to compete. DirecTV does not plan to just keep D12 as a spare. It will be used to expand HD capacity next year.


----------



## dgsiiinc

EaglePC said:


> this proccess is taking longer then D10 where the D11 sat 103 ,did it blow up?


D11 is testing some new technology before it starts its full time job. We'll be getting new channels in September.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> If they have 150 combined, it is entirely reasonable to infer that they have 75 individually. They are functionally identical.


Please post a link that said D10/D11 ONLY would provide 150 national channel capacity. Every thing I've seen is once D10/D11 is launched that DirecTV would have the capacity for 150, not that D10/D11 ONLY would provide that.



harsh said:


> No, the claim was that D10 and D11 would have the 150 national HD channel capacity. This is exclusive of any other satellites.CONUS coverage by spotbeam array was reportedly tested and found unsatisfactory. Given that each spot covers such a small area, it would take quite a few to give CONUS coverage plus the requisite AK/HI coverage which require more than one TP each.
> 
> Remember that it takes many times the power to get similar Ka beamwidth coverage out of a spotbeam horn.


Who said anything about using spot beams to provide CONUS coverage? Satellites are built with spares which D* could have decided to use at this time for all the national HD channels that they've added.


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> Never been a definitive answer ... also were two 117's and three 110's ...


And now TLE# 120 (7/1) has two ... for clarity, I'm just using the latest timestamp for each TLE in post# 2.


----------



## smiddy

Thanks for keeping this up Sixto...it's like paint drying or grass growing around here thought lately. Hopefully we see some movement this month.


----------



## Paul A

Thanks Sixto!!!


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Thanks for keeping this up Sixto...it's like paint drying or grass growing around here thought lately. Hopefully we see some movement this month.


Paint and nice green grass in full HD!


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> Paint and nice green grass in full HD!


Wasn't that one of the Voom Channels?

Anyway, Thanks Sixto. You're the man in the know, and we appreciate your sharing it with us.


----------



## LameLefty

man_rob said:


> Wasn't that one of the Voom Channels?


You'd have to ask Harsh. Maybe that's why he's haunting this thread? :lol:



> Anyway, Thanks Sixto. You're the man in the know, and we appreciate your sharing it with us.


Yes indeed.  :goodjob:


----------



## Tigerman73

I bet we'll see some movement later this month, take a few days to drift over to 99.2 and then a couple of weeks of testing and preparation for a big August headed into football season.


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> Please post a link that said D10/D11 ONLY would provide 150 national channel capacity. Every thing I've seen is once D10/D11 is launched that DirecTV would have the capacity for 150, not that D10/D11 ONLY would provide that.


The snippet that I quoted in post 3543 in this thread speaks directly to your proposition. http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1664518&postcount=3543

The key phrase is "these satellites [in reference to D10 and D11] will have the capacity for... more than 150 national HD channels".

These are relatively simple mathematical story problems.


> Who said anything about using spot beams to provide CONUS coverage? Satellites are built with spares which D* could have decided to use at this time for all the national HD channels that they've added.


You suggested in your post 3548 that HD LIL capacity might be sacrificed for national HD channels. To do this, spotbeams would have to be converted for CONUS coverage. It isn't something you can do by blitzing a single spotbeam with an enormous amount of power.

Re-purposing spares for production work kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? As it is, if something catastrophic happens to D10, half of D*'s existing HD LIL capacity goes away and most of their national HD capacity goes with it. If you turn spares over to full-time, when anything happens, someone (perhaps everyone) will at least temporarily lose some sort of service until they squeeze more into the existing space or final orbit another satellite.

The current plan will be just fine. It simply won't meet the unreasonable expectations of the "XM's satellite was live in 44 days" set.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Re-purposing spares for production work kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? As it is, if something catastrophic happens to D10, half of D*'s existing HD LIL capacity goes away and most of their national HD capacity goes with it. If you turn spares over to full-time, when anything happens, someone (perhaps everyone) will at least temporarily lose some sort of service until they squeeze more into the existing space or final orbit another satellite.


By most estimations, at least a portion of the spare transponders on D10 are already in use as a result of the SeaLaunch delay. D11 will relieve that situation in the near-term, and D12 will expand capacity even further in about 12 - 16 months. What is so complicated about this?

And further more, why do you care?


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> The snippet that I quoted in post 3543 in this thread speaks directly to your proposition. http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1664518&postcount=3543
> 
> The key phrase is "these satellites [in reference to D10 and D11] will have the capacity for... more than 150 national HD channels".


Sorry, I miss read it.



harsh said:


> These are relatively simple mathematical story problems.You suggested in your post 3548 that HD LIL capacity might be sacrificed for national HD channels. To do this, spotbeams would have to be converted for CONUS coverage. It isn't something you can do by blitzing a single spotbeam with an enormous amount of power.
> 
> Re-purposing spares for production work kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? As it is, if something catastrophic happens to D10, half of D*'s existing HD LIL capacity goes away and most of their national HD capacity goes with it. If you turn spares over to full-time, when anything happens, someone (perhaps everyone) will at least temporarily lose some sort of service until they squeeze more into the existing space or final orbit another satellite.


Again, I never said that they would repurpose the LIL capability of the satellite for CONUS but to use the spare CONUS capaicty in D10 for the current national HD that they added. According to http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf D10 has 32 active and 12 spare national TWTA's in additon to the 5 active and 15 spare TWTA's for LIL's. Since there is only a limited amout of power available to power all this hardware D* could have decided to use the additional CONUS/national TWTA's and cut back on the LIL's to stay within their power budget. Again, I NEVER SAID TO USE HD LIL TRANSPONDERS FOR CONUS COVERAGE. And I never said that they'd used all their spares, just that they could use some of them, which they could then turn back into spares once D11 went active.

But then again, this is all guessing in both of our parts since neither of us have the inside story on what's actually happening now do we.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> By most estimations, at least a portion of the spare transponders on D10 are already in use as a result of the SeaLaunch delay. D11 will relieve that situation in the near-term, and D12 will expand capacity even further in about 12 - 16 months. What is so complicated about this?
> 
> And further more, why do you care?


That clears it up for me...now jwe ust have to all wait until D11 is "alive" for transmission of more Natonal HD and HD LIL's.

Patience is a virtue.


----------



## Ext 721

"spare" transponders are like spare tires...and this is a 32-wheeler, frequency-wise. You can't take the 2 spares from an 18 wheel big rig, slap them on the axles, and expect the truck to run faster on 20.  

The spares are there in case one of the approved frequency transponders goes out and needs to be replaced. They cannot be used to add national channels, because they would conflict with frequencies already being used.


----------



## RAD

Ext 721 said:


> "spare" transponders are like spare tires...and this is a 32-wheeler, frequency-wise. You can't take the 2 spares from an 18 wheel big rig, slap them on the axles, and expect the truck to run faster on 20.


Bad comparison. Spare tires don't provide any additional power.



Ext 721 said:


> "The spares are there in case one of the approved frequency transponders goes out and needs to be replaced. They cannot be used to add national channels, because they would conflict with frequencies already being used.


What frequencies would it conflict with? If D* said that frequency range x-y was going to be used for a bunch of local HD spots but then decided to not use them for local HD spots they could use them for national HD, there would be no conflict.


----------



## Dave

Could someone please direct me to DirectV's annoucement that D10 & D11 were needed for the capacity of up to 150 channels? I rememeber DirectV saying that with satellite D10 they would have the capacity for 150 channels. Nothing was mentioned about needing D11 for this. So please help me out and point me to DirectV's official announcement that they would need both satellites for this.
I see alot of speculation on here about this. But I have never seen DirectV's announcement anywhere about this.


----------



## say-what

Dave said:


> Could someone please direct me to DirectV's annoucement that D10 & D11 were needed for the capacity of up to 150 channels? I rememeber DirectV saying that with satellite D10 they would have the capacity for 150 channels. Nothing was mentioned about needing D11 for this. So please help me out and point me to DirectV's official announcement that they would need both satellites for this.
> I see alot of speculation on here about this. But I have never seen DirectV's announcement anywhere about this.


http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=300485
DIRECTV 11, the tenth owned and operated satellite in the DIRECTV fleet, will be maneuvered into a circular orbit at 99.2 degrees West longitude and when tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations in early September, providing capacity for up to 50 additional national HD channels

http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=286355
After the spacecraft is maneuvered into a circular orbit at 103 degrees West longitude and tests are completed, it is expected to begin operations in early September, delivering the first of up to 100 national HD channels by year-end. The DIRECTV 10 satellite's powerful transponder payload includes spot beam capacity that will enable DIRECTV to expand its local HD channel services to up to 75 markets this year


----------



## Ext 721

Ext 721 said:


> "spare" transponders are like spare tires...and this is a 32-wheeler, frequency-wise. You can't take the 2 spares from an 18 wheel big rig, slap them on the axles, and expect the truck to run faster on 20.
> 
> The spares are there in case one of the approved frequency transponders goes out and needs to be replaced. They cannot be used to add national channels, because they would conflict with frequencies already being used.


To clarify what I mean...you can't use a spare transponder frequency for a national channel while it is in use doing something else. Yes, you can take one frequency off-line for spot-beam, and use it for nationals. This is like changing a tire with a spare...not adding a new tire.


----------



## RAD

Ext 721 said:


> To clarify what I mean...you can't use a spare transponder frequency for a national channel while it is in use doing something else. Yes, you can take one frequency off-line for spot-beam, and use it for nationals. This is like changing a tire with a spare...not adding a new tire.


Better comparison. Better yet, you change a tire on a race car from a rain tire to a slick tire, both still let the race go but have to different purposes.


----------



## Dave

Say_What

Thank you for the post pointing to these 2 satellites capacity. I was having problems finding them. Just wanted to show some non believers that have been posting where DirectV has made these statements and the links for them. Once again thank you for your help.


----------



## ActiveHDdave

crashHD said:


> Not always an option. Some of us don't have outdoor tvs
> 
> I farm for a living. After sweating outside all week, I find a weekend of air conditioned couch potatoing preferable to outdoor play


 I spend most of my day on rooftops fixing those darn AC units while I am sweating it out on a 120 degree black rubber roof. Still I like to get out and enjoy the great outdoors, Like tonight just before dark I will be going on a 6 mile run. Tomorrow biking.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That clears it up for me...now jwe ust have to all wait until D11 is "alive" for transmission of more Natonal HD and HD LIL's.
> 
> Patience is a virtue.


Hey, who said anything about wanting to be virtuous? :eek2:

I'll be waiting though less patiently that others but more than some. Bring on DirecTV 11, *PLEASE*!


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> Hey, who said anything about wanting to be virtuous? :eek2:
> 
> I'll be waiting though less patiently that others but more than some. Bring on DirecTV 11, *PLEASE*!


we have all become a bit too greedy for new HD channels.

Back in my day we did not have HD channels, We did not even have color channels, we had Black and White channels that were all static like, and they burned our eyes, but we were glad of them, and we liked it.


----------



## Ernie

man_rob said:


> .......
> No, the sats are not identical, hence the BSS testing on D11. Again you are just assuming.


They are pretty close to identical. If you flip between the technical data for D10 and D11 at the FCC, its hard to find any significant differences. All I could find is different "service areas" for the spot beams and different uplink frequencies for the spot beams. I noticed that the 8 phase performance data is only specified for D10. I will assume that is clerical error.

The BSS testing at 101 used an existing channel pair (T0022 and R0022) for the test. I'll make an assumption here and guess that the test is more of a test of the D* earthstation's antenna than it is of the bird.

Ernie


----------



## carl6

curt8403 said:


> we have all become a bit too greedy for new HD channels.
> 
> Back in my day we did not have HD channels, We did not even have color channels, we had Black and White channels that were all static like, and they burned our eyes, but we were glad of them, and we liked it.


Ah yes. And the test pattern that ran for at least a half hour before the start of the broadcast day so you could adjust your set so the display came close to resembling what was transmitted to it. Carrier with no signal at 6 am. Test pattern at 6:30 am. First show of the day at 7 am. Something like that anyway.

Carl


----------



## bobnielsen

And before the test pattern came on you could occasionally receive some distant stations. I once picked up an Oklahoma station on channel 2 from Southern California.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> D11 will relieve that situation in the near-term, and D12 will expand capacity even further in about 12 - 16 months. What is so complicated about this?


Are there any frequencies available for D12 to use in your scheme?


----------



## harsh

bakers12 said:


> If you want to discuss D10 or HD channels from months ago, start or join a different thread. This thread is for D11.


As D10 is virtually identical to D11, it is a much better basis on which to frame theories than a couple of hints from a financial conference call.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I can verify some details that you all have pretty much have finally come to agreements upon anyway:


At the time of order, D10/D11/D12 were all very nearly identical from what I can tell in the redacted contract. Who knows if the redacted portions actually hid a minor detail, but the original FCC filings for D10 and D11 were also identical.
D11 obviously underwent a last minute addition/change for BSS testing. It could have been as simple as taking one spare Ka transponder and making it a BSS transponder. (BTW, it really isn't _that_ simple, at the very least the feedhorn has to be completely replaced.)
Even after D11 is parked and up, there are spare frequencies that are currently used for backhauling and such, that could be used for broadcast to home in the 99° and 103° orbital slots. D12 will be going to one of those because...
The current family of dishes can't receive Ka (or BSS) at 101°. I don't expect DIRECTV to put anything at 101° for quite some time--we'd hear about the new LNBs first. 
And BSS is still some ways from being allocated. D12 will not be BSS (at least to the home), too much expense reconfiguring and too high a risk that the FCC won't have the approvals done in time.

That all said, there is a chance that D11's BSS package includes a BSS "holder". A transponder or two to "use" the BSS space in case DIRECTV is allocated something soon. And that D12 might also get such a BSS package. FCC allocations come with a time limit. Use it or lose it. By putting a holder transponder in place, they satisfy the Use requirement (and likely gain more backhauling capacity) until a full fledged system of dishes, switches, satellites, uplink, and downlink facilities can be engineered, and put into the home install channels.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ernie

Tom Robertson said:


> ....
> D11 obviously underwent a last minute addition/change for BSS testing. It could have been as simple as taking one spare Ka transponder and making it a BSS transponder. (BTW, it really isn't _that_ simple, at the very least the feedhorn has to be completely replaced.)


If you look at the STA (at fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-150543), it just appears to be an using an existing LIL transponder on R0022/T0022.

.......


> And BSS is still some ways from being allocated. D12 will not be BSS (at least to the home), too much expense reconfiguring and too high a risk that the FCC won't have the approvals done in time.


That is what RB-1,...,RB-5 seem to be about (FCC filings SAT-AMD-20080114-00013 thru SAT-AMD-20080114-00017)

Ernie


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> LameLefty said:
> 
> 
> 
> D11 will relieve that situation in the near-term, and D12 will expand capacity even further in about 12 - 16 months. What is so complicated about this?
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any frequencies available for D12 to use in your scheme?
Click to expand...

Of course there are. The spot beam frequencies can be used many times over as long as they cover different "spots", plus if they use D12 to cover more spots with fewer transponder "channels" (i.e. less of the total available licensed spectrum), that frees up (adds to) the available national coverage spectrum in addition to adding to the total bandwidth available for spot beam broadcasting.

As LameLefty said.... "What is so complicated about this?"


----------



## feschiver

When does the FCC license end for the D11 testing at 100.7


----------



## Ken984

feschiver said:


> When does the FCC license end for the D11 testing at 100.7


It was up to 120 days, so it could go on till September.


----------



## Sixto

feschiver said:


> When does the FCC license end for the D11 testing at 100.7


"DIRECTV requests authority for these operations for up to one hundred twenty (120) days, beginning on or about May 15, 2008"

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=89556&x=


----------



## man_rob

Ernie said:


> They are pretty close to identical. If you flip between the technical data for D10 and D11 at the FCC, its hard to find any significant differences. All I could find is different "service areas" for the spot beams and different uplink frequencies for the spot beams. I noticed that the 8 phase performance data is only specified for D10. I will assume that is clerical error.
> 
> The BSS testing at 101 used an existing channel pair (T0022 and R0022) for the test. I'll make an assumption here and guess that the test is more of a test of the D* earthstation's antenna than it is of the bird.
> 
> Ernie


The two satellites are quite similar, but not identical, hence the differences in their testing plans. They didn't test BSS on D10, because it doesn't have the experimental payload on board. It's a test of the satellite payload, hence it being called an experimental payload.


----------



## Jeremy W

Ernie said:


> If you look at the STA (at fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-150543), it just appears to be an using an existing LIL transponder on R0022/T0022.


That STA request you linked to has nothing to do with the BSS testing. The document very clearly states that the LIL transponder they want to test is Ka. They can't use a Ka transponder to do BSS.


----------



## mystic7

bobnielsen said:


> And before the test pattern came on you could occasionally receive some distant stations. I once picked up an Oklahoma station on channel 2 from Southern California.


Yeah, I remember being absolutely amazed one day to be picking up Channel 8 from Connecticut all the way in the Bronx. And, of course, anyone old enough can still hear the last few refrains of the Star Spangled Banner, followed immediately by "Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..." That piercing electronic tone presumably meant to wake our parents who fell asleep in front of the tv.


----------



## raoul5788

mystic7 said:


> Yeah, I remember being absolutely amazed one day to be picking up Channel 8 from Connecticut all the way in the Bronx. And, of course, anyone old enough can still hear the last few refrains of the Star Spangled Banner, followed immediately by "Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..." That piercing electronic tone presumably meant to wake our parents who fell asleep in front of the tv.


Channel 7 or 9 went off the air before channel 8? Weird! I do remember getting the Philadelphia channel 3 after the Hartford channel 3 went off the air.


----------



## JLucPicard

OMG - I wish SOMETHING would happen with D11 (something good, mind you!) that would get people talking about D11! These wild wanderings are making me think of not checking out this thread, but I don't want to miss any actually D11 news.

Oh well.


----------



## man_rob

JLucPicard said:


> OMG - I wish SOMETHING would happen with D11 (something good, mind you!) that would get people talking about D11! These wild wanderings are making me think of not checking out this thread, but I don't want to miss any actually D11 news.
> 
> Oh well.


I'm happy that nothing bad has happened. Let them test the heck out of that thing, but just get it right.

Remember the AMC-14 debacle?


----------



## jefbal99

JLucPicard said:


> OMG - I wish SOMETHING would happen with D11 (something good, mind you!) that would get people talking about D11! These wild wanderings are making me think of not checking out this thread, but I don't want to miss any actually D11 news.
> 
> Oh well.


Any major news will prolly make the front page


----------



## JLucPicard

man_rob said:


> Remember the AMC-14 debacle?





jefbal99 said:


> Any major news will prolly make the front page


I'm not talking about major news, or some catastophic occurrence because I'm sure people would be posting new (duplicate, triplicate, quadruplicate?) threads for at least two days thinking it hasn't been posted yet and has slipped by all the people that are keeping close tabs on this thing.

I'm just talking about the possible "looks like D11 has started moving again" type posts. You know, posts actually talking about the progress of D11? Like I guess this thread was meant for? Not more discussion of DMAs and how many channels DirecTV "promised".


----------



## JeffBowser

I would tend to agree, Cap't, but in the absence of news, what else ? I don't think no posts at all is preferable. I find it amusing to watch people get all wound up over meaningless side-bar issues, personally.


----------



## DarinC

JeffBowser said:


> ... in the absence of news, what else ? I don't think no posts at all is preferable. I find it amusing to watch people get all wound up over meaningless side-bar issues, personally.


Especially considering that the basis of the whole topic is simply about gaining the ability to watch even more meaningless TV.


----------



## doctor j

Ernie said:


> If you look at the STA (at fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-150543), it just appears to be an using an existing LIL transponder on R0022/T0022.
> 
> Ernie


One way of interpreting this is that D-11 has finished BSS testing at 100.7 and wants to quickly test Ka spots at 101 (100.7) as another piece of future options ie Ka on D-12 at 101.
The STA is for two days in this next week THEN maybe to 99.4 to LIGHT UP after the 4th.

Hopeful anyway.

Doctor j


----------



## LameLefty

JeffBowser said:


> I would tend to agree, Cap't, but in the absence of news, what else ? I don't think no posts at all is preferable. I find it amusing to watch people get all wound up over meaningless side-bar issues, personally.


I find it amusing that Harsh spends so much time worrying about D11 and D12 at all . . .


----------



## erosroadie

doctor j said:


> One way of interpreting this is that D-11 has fininished BSS testing at 100.7 and wants to quickly test Ka spots at 101 (100.7) as another piece of future options ie Ka on D-12 at 101.
> The STA is for two days in this next week THEN maybe to 99.4 to LIGHT UP after the 4th.
> 
> Hopeful anyway.
> 
> Doctor j


I know this is probably very redundant...but what is the current thinking/knowledge/fact concerning what D-11 is actually going to broadcast? More missing locals (including PBS HD), all the HD for Sports Packages (such as Sunday Ticket), additional channels (which ones), etc...? And what is the current thinking/speculation/fact about when this bird will be switched on?


----------



## smiddy

DarinC said:


> Especially considering that the basis of the whole topic is simply about gaining the ability to watch even more meaningless TV.


No, not meainingless TV, you didn't say that TV was meaningless did you? Ah man, and here I was thinking everything has meaning...wait, or was that that everything has no meaning. I forget! But hey, it will be nice to sit around and drink a cold one and watch more HD when DirecTV 11 shows us its goodies, right?


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> One way of interpreting this is that D-11 has fininished BSS testing at 100.7 and wants to quickly test Ka spots at 101 (100.7) as another piece of future options ie Ka on D-12 at 101.
> The STA is for two days in this next week THEN maybe to 99.4 to LIGHT UP after the 4th.
> 
> Hopeful anyway.
> 
> Doctor j


That's what I get from reading that document, so we should be looking for D11 to start moving to it's final orbital slot by late next week.


----------



## curt8403

smiddy said:


> No, not meainingless TV, you didn't say that TV was meaningless did you? Ah man, and here I was thinking everything has meaning...wait, or was that that everything has no meaning. I forget! But hey, it will be nice to sit around and drink a cold one and watch more HD when DirecTV 11 shows us its goodies, right?


get a big tall cold one, a huge bag of snacks, then sit back and watch the Boston Pops on the 4th...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Anyone looking for live transmissions from D11 in July will most likely be very disappointed. Initial testing appears on target and proceeding, but then they'll have to move it (2 days to park), and then further testing in its permanent location for a number of weeks. That all alone puts things into August.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Anyone looking for live transmissions from D11 in July will most likely be very disappointed. Initial testing appears on target and proceeding, but then they'll have to move it (2 days to park), and then further testing in its permanent location for a number of weeks. That all alone puts things into August.


I guess thats what I don't understand. Why don't they park it in its final location after launch, and then test it from there? And what all testing is there to do? You either get a signal or you don't.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Methinks there won't be much testing at the final parking spot. Days at most, not weeks, is my thinkin'

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Methinks there won't be much testing at the final parking spot. Days at most, not weeks, is my thinkin'
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


everyone think about getting a good supply of your favorite beverage, and we will all toast D11 online when it lights up


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Methinks there won't be much testing at the final parking spot. Days at most, not weeks, is my thinkin'
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hope you're right Tom - Happy 4th (and CE night tonight).


----------



## Sixto

D10 began transmitting, and we saw transponder signals, within a day of arrival at final spot. "Live" HD channels started two weeks later .... may be similar ... just waiting on the move back from 100.7 ... happy 4th!


----------



## Indiana627

D11 is going to be for me like D10 was to all of us: when D10 lit up it was like Christmas for all of us, and since I'm going to be soon suspending my account while we move and I likely won't get it turned back on until September or later, D11 should be lit by then, so I'll have a brand new sat beaming down glorious HD when I reactivate my D* service. Can't wait!


----------



## mcbeevee

erosroadie said:


> I know this is probably very redundant...but what is the current thinking/knowledge/fact concerning what D-11 is actually going to broadcast? More missing locals (including PBS HD), all the HD for Sports Packages (such as Sunday Ticket), additional channels (which ones), etc...? And what is the current thinking/speculation/fact about when this bird will be switched on?


Sixto's post #2 will give you a synopsis of D11.


----------



## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> Methinks there won't be much testing at the final parking spot. Days at most, not weeks, is my thinkin'
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


That was my thought as well, because I would have assumed that when it was parked the first time, they tested it from there before moving the bird to the 2nd test spot. So now that they're nearing end of testing at the 2nd spot, they move back to the first (final) spot and can pretty much to a quick test and fire it up. (How's that for keeping the technical fine points out of the picture?)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> That was my thought as well, because I would have assumed that when it was parked the first time, they tested it from there before moving the bird to the 2nd test spot. So now that they're nearing end of testing at the 2nd spot, they move back to the first (final) spot and can pretty much to a quick test and fire it up. (How's that for keeping the technical fine points out of the picture?)


We may start to see some transponder activity like D10, but that's not the same as channels being activated (I still think that won't happen until late August some time.

On the other hand...seeing some new transponder activity will be good for a couple thousand posts here (10% of which will be smiddy  ) :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

New channels will be very much like D10's fire up--as much dependent upon the provider getting clean signal to DIRECTV as anything else. 

Hopefully everyone has more experience this time around so most of the new channels will come from people already used to the process--hence quicker.  Woohoo! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> New channels will be very much like D10's fire up--as much dependent upon the provider getting clean signal to DIRECTV as anything else.
> 
> Hopefully everyone has more experience this time around so most of the new channels will come from people already used to the process--hence quicker.  Woohoo!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK...my optimism just grew about 50 basis points.


----------



## kevinwmsn

Do you think they would load the balance D10 and D11 before they add more national channels?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I don't think they will need to. I think they'll launch more channels as quickly as they can. More channels equals more bragging rights. 

They will likely balance their risk, which doesn't equate to balancing their load. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We may start to see some transponder activity like D10, but that's not the same as channels being activated (I still think that won't happen until late August some time.
> 
> On the other hand...seeing some new transponder activity will be good for a couple thousand posts here (10% of which will be smiddy  ) :lol:


I hope you meant that with the utmost love and affection you always do. :lol:

Dude, I know I seem too anxious, but hey what am I supposed to do? I love this thing and I want more HD, so bring DirecTV 11 on line and satisfy my itch, come on! :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> ...
> 
> They will likely balance their risk, which doesn't equate to balancing their load.


Whoa Tom, you sound like a Program Manager...or a pervert.  I err on the side of the PM.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I hope you meant that with the utmost love and affection you always do. :lol:


We love ya man.... 

So sit back, relax, and just wait for the HD channel avalanche to arrive. 

Soon.


----------



## Drew2k

smiddy said:


> Isatisfy my itch, come on! :lol:


That evokes just all sorts of unpleasant images, so I'll just root for D11 to phone home this month, make us all happy, and give Smiddy something to ... scratch ... about. :lol: :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

You guys are all gettin' punchy! :lol:

Happy (early) Independence Day, folks! :goodjob:

!pride


----------



## MrDad0330

Anyone think they may want D11 up and running for the Olympics? 8-8-08


----------



## curt8403

MrDad0330 said:


> Anyone think they may want D11 up and running for the Olympics? 8-8-08


that will not happen, sorry
too soon


----------



## FHSPSU67

LameLefty said:


> You guys are all gettin' punchy! :lol:
> 
> Happy (early) Independence Day, folks! :goodjob:
> 
> !pride


Right back at ya, Lefty! And all dbstalkers!
!pride


----------



## Paul A

JLucPicard said:


> OMG - I wish SOMETHING would happen with D11 (something good, mind you!) that would get people talking about D11! These wild wanderings are making me think of not checking out this thread, but I don't want to miss any actually D11 news.
> 
> Oh well.


This is calm compared to D10 anticipation!!!!!


----------



## Paul A

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Anyone looking for live transmissions from D11 in July will most likely be very disappointed. Initial testing appears on target and proceeding, but then they'll have to move it (2 days to park), and then further testing in its permanent location for a number of weeks. That all alone puts things into August.


Exactly, placing us precisely at my predicition

August 13th, 6am Eastern - or 5318 more posts, wichever comes first.


----------



## Sixto

Paul A said:


> Exactly, placing us precisely at my predicition
> 
> August 13th, 6am Eastern - or 5318 more posts, wichever comes first.


8/13 has been the rumored date for a while ...

Personally, I'm thinking a week or two earlier (before the Olympics start) ... but it all depends on the BSS testing ...


----------



## Paul A

hdtvfan0001 said:


> On the other hand...seeing some new transponder activity will be good for a couple thousand posts here (10% of which will be smiddy  ) :lol:


Here is to our anticitption bro and leader - smiddy!!!

Green Grog All Around!!!


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> 8/13 has been the rumored date for a while ...
> 
> Personally, I'm thinking a week or two earlier (before the Olympics start) ... but it all depends on the BSS testing ...


Well, do you want to believe rumors - OR FACT!


----------



## smiddy

If anyone is wondering what channels DirecTV 11 could potentially display on your lovely HDTVs, check this thread out.


----------



## Ed Campbell

The only channel not yet available in HD for the Olympics is MSNBC.

They'll use NBC, CNBC, UHD...perhaps Bravo will finally offer HD content?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> If anyone is wondering what channels DirecTV 11 could potentially display on your lovely HDTVs, check this thread out.


Yep Smiddy, great job, added to post#2 earlier today ... still need to also add the link to the "Current HD" thread. Your thread is very complimentary to the other. Very nice.


----------



## Jeremy W

MrDad0330 said:


> Anyone think they may want D11 up and running for the Olympics? 8-8-08


We already have every HD channel that will carry Olympic content, so I can't imagine any reason why DirecTV would choose that arbitrary deadline.


----------



## Hdhead

curt8403 said:


> that will not happen, sorry
> too soon


Curt, What is your best guess?


----------



## mcbeevee

Jeremy W said:


> We already have every HD channel that will carry Olympic content, so I can't imagine any reason why DirecTV would choose that arbitrary deadline.


Maybe Directv is planning a few special channels like they did for the Masters.


----------



## Herdfan

Jeremy W said:


> We already have every HD channel that will carry Olympic content, so I can't imagine any reason why DirecTV would choose that arbitrary deadline.


The could launch a ton of LIL's to provide NBC's coverage in HD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If they park D11 at 99 by 7/31/08, there's really nothing that would stop them from firing it up in time for the Olympics, if they intend on having some special channels like they did for the Masters and US Open.


----------



## Drew2k

Ed Campbell said:


> The only channel not yet available in HD for the Olympics is MSNBC.
> 
> They'll use NBC, CNBC, UHD...perhaps Bravo will finally offer HD content?


You forgot USA.


----------



## Drew2k

Jeremy W said:


> We already have every HD channel that will carry Olympic content, so I can't imagine any reason why DirecTV would choose that arbitrary deadline.


Is there a list of NBC channels somewhere showing what will or won't be providing Olympics coverage? In the past, NBC did use MSNBC for Olympics, but MSNBC is not yet available in HD on DIRECTV ...


----------



## gpg

Drew2k said:


> Is there a list of NBC channels somewhere showing what will or won't be providing Olympics coverage? In the past, NBC did use CNBC and MSNBC for Olympics, and they're not yet available in HD on DIRECTV ...


CNBCHD has been available for months on channel 355, but MSNBC is only available in SD. AFAIK, NBCU doesn't even offer an HD MSNBC feed.


----------



## Drew2k

gpg said:


> CNBCHD has been available for months on channel 355, but MSNBC is only available in SD. AFAIK, NBCU doesn't even offer an HD MSNBC feed.


My bad ... I never watch CNBC!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

And perhaps they may offer special channels that address concurrent events that people may want to see...in some cases, there could be as many as 4 things going on at the same time which would not necessarily be handled by their current NBC group channel(s).


----------



## Drew2k

From Multichannel News yesterday, NBC did just acquire four channels for extended coverage of sports. I didn't see if these would be in HD or not...

Earlier in the week, NBC acquired the World Championship Sports network and rechristened it Universal Sports, and it's slated to carry Olympic coverage. So far only available in NY and LA on cable.

Coming soon to DIRECTV? D11 - we need you!

Source: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6575599.html?desc=topstory



> NBC Rings In Olympic Channels
> 
> Operators Agree To Carry Hoops, Soccer, Foreign-Language Nets During Games
> By R. Thomas Umstead -- Multichannel News, 7/3/2008 12:32:00 PM
> 
> NBC Sports has secured significant distribution for four new Olympics-based channels that will launch in August, according to company officials.
> 
> It's unclear, however, whether the channels are part of a far-reaching NBC Universal deal with operators that will provide cable operators carriage rights to future Olympics games in 2010 and 2012.


Source: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6574430.html?q=Universal+Sports



> Universal Sports Rolls Out In NY, LA
> 
> Former WCSN Service Gains Foothold Before Olympics With Time Warner, Cablevision, Comcast
> By Mike Reynolds -- Multichannel News, 6/30/2008 1:03:00 PM
> 
> Just a couple of weeks after becoming a significant shareholder in World Championship Sports Network, NBC Universal's rechristened Universal Sports service has rang up a six-fold increase in distribution.
> 
> Universal Sports, which carries Olympics-style sports fare, is now available in more than 13 million TV households via carriage contracts covering the New York and Los Angeles DMAs.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> From Multichannel News yesterday, NBC did just acquire four channels for extended coverage of sports. I didn't see if these would be in HD or not...
> 
> Earlier in the week, NBC acquired the World Championship Sports network and rechristened it Universal Sports, and it's slated to carry Olympic coverage. So far only available in NY and LA on cable.
> 
> Coming soon to DIRECTV? D11 - we need you!
> 
> Source: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6575599.html?desc=topstory
> 
> Source: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6574430.html?q=Universal+Sports


Good catch! 

That's just what I was referencing....and if D11 is parked by the end of the month...this could all happen...more Olympics in HD...


----------



## seern

Not that D* is taking it into account, but Olympic coverage would be a great selling point to start D11 on.


----------



## Jeremy W

Drew2k said:


> Earlier in the week, NBC acquired the World Championship Sports network and rechristened it Universal Sports, and it's slated to carry Olympic coverage. So far only available in NY and LA on cable.


It's also available OTA in Detroit on 20-2.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Drew2k said:


> You forgot USA.


That's why I put in the "..." 

Can't be bothered to keep track of all the corporate mash-ups.


----------



## BlackHitachi

Herdfan said:


> The could launch a ton of LIL's to provide NBC's coverage in HD.


I hope so!! I would love to see Medford Locals!:joy:


----------



## Tom B

Ed Campbell said:


> The only channel not yet available in HD for the Olympics is MSNBC.
> 
> They'll use NBC, CNBC, UHD...perhaps Bravo will finally offer HD content?


Not sure what the plan is this year, but in 2004 there were some events on Telemundo. I'm pretty sure that I still don't get that in HD.


----------



## steveken

BlackHitachi said:


> I hope so!! I would love to see Medford Locals!:joy:


Oh boy, I bet a flood of "I would love to see them in ..... as well" will start now. :roundandr


----------



## harsh

BlackHitachi said:


> I hope so!! I would love to see Medford Locals!:joy:


At DMA rank 140, you likely have a long way to go. Then there's the issue of carriage agreements...

Who knows, they may come soon and they may come with all of the big four (unlike Portland, OR).


----------



## BlackHitachi

harsh said:


> At DMA rank 140, you likely have a long way to go. Then there's the issue of carriage agreements...
> 
> Who knows, they may come soon and they may come with all of the big four (unlike Portland, OR).


Yea i know i'm in the 140 th but there are alot above my DMA who still don't have All five Big HD channels!! We do also i keep hearing about this 1500 local channels.. So i figure why not?? From my phone call D* has already signed agreements with all stations here! Who knows i might get lucky!


----------



## BlackHitachi

steveken said:


> Oh boy, I bet a flood of "I would love to see them in ..... as well" will start now. :roundandr


Oh boy you are probably right!


----------



## harsh

BlackHitachi said:


> also i keep hearing about this 1500 local channels..


Back in 2004, DIRECTV planned to have _capacity_ for more than 1500 HD LIL (250+ on Spaceway 1, 250+ on Spaceway 2, 500+ on D10 and 500+ on D11).

Here we are in 2008 and they've managed to float somewhere around 400 HD LIL channels with ostensibly 2/3rds of their capacity in place (possibly less some D10 capacity that didn't survive the trip).

I'm thinking that they're waiting for the final results on D11 so they can shuffle things around and fill in the bad spots with the Spaceways.


----------



## JLucPicard

Man, as cute as your avatar is, it sure is fitting with your propensity to jump into DirecTV threads and poop!

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying you're right. But as a Dish Network subscriber your posts, in the DirecTV threads anyway, sure sound a lot like DirecTV did you wrong somehow. Sometimes it just amazes me.

Sorry, :backtotop


----------



## Dave

With D11 coming on line within the next 55 to 60 days. Anyone figure they will have the 1500 locals they been advertising for 4+ years? If they do this would be at least (6) SIX channels for every DMA in the country. Personnely I do not believe DirectV will ever accomplish this. {:nono2: :nono2: :nono2: Four plus years and counting.}


----------



## curt8403

Dave said:


> With D11 coming on line within the next 55 to 60 days. Anyone figure they will have the 1500 locals they been advertising for 4+ years? If they do this would be at least (6) SIX channels for every DMA in the country. Personnely I do not believe DirectV will ever accomplish this. {:nono2: :nono2: :nono2: Four plus years and counting.}


Directv recently got the LIN channels, I think that over the next year they will get locals in HD for every market that has locals in HD. (admittedly that is wishing)


----------



## Ed Campbell

Of course, it's not OT if we're hearing from a venerable DISH Troll.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Ed Campbell said:


> Of course, it's not OT if we're hearing from a venerable DISH Troll.


I'd be a whole lot more concerned if I were a Dish user, as to where Dish is going to come up with the bandwidth to approach 150 HD LIL markets and 150HD National channels by Spring 2009. Right now - it ain't there....and there's nothing planned to be live and in place by then either.

On the other hand, I know where DirecTV is going to have that capacity, and with D12, they will have even more...

So now that we've gotten past any trolling...

:backtotop


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'd be a whole lot more concerned if I were a Dish user, as to where Dish is going to come up with the bandwidth to approach 150 HD LIL markets and 150HD National channels by Spring 2009. Right now - it ain't there....and there's nothing planned to be live and in place by then either.
> 
> On the other hand, I know where DirecTV is going to have that capacity, and with D12, they will have even more...
> 
> So now that we've gotten past any trolling...
> 
> :backtotop


trolling is great however, when you are after walleye/


----------



## hdtvfan0001

curt8403 said:


> trolling is great however, when you are after walleye/


Actually its WALLe 

:backtotop *(strike two)*


----------



## Drew2k

Following up on earlier posts about NBC's Olympic channels and whether D11 will be up in time to deliver them in HD, I saw an NBC commercial today:

They'll be providing 1400 hours broadcast across 7 networks:

*NBC
CNBC
USA
Universal HD*
MSNBC
Oxygen
Telemundo

The bottom three are not available yet in HD on DIRECTV. Will D11 be up by 08.08.08? I'm not a fortune-teller ...

The commercial didn't mention the two channels NBC recently acquired, so I don't know how they fit into NBC's plans, but the commercial also mentioned over 3,000 hours of coverage would be available on NBCOlympics.com ...


----------



## seern

UHD is in the HD extra pack, which I have never subscribed to. Might have to for the Olympics.


----------



## cforrest

seern said:


> UHD is in the HD extra pack, which I have never subscribed to. Might have to for the Olympics.


Wait til the Olympics start, that channel might be available without subscribing to the extra pack during the Olympics.


----------



## jbuch

Does anyone know if 72.5 is supposed to be going bye-bye shortly after the new satellite is up and running? I would love to eliminate the 2nd dish.


----------



## wearsch

jbuch said:


> Does anyone know if 72.5 is supposed to be going bye-bye shortly after the new satellite is up and running? I would love to eliminate the 2nd dish.


That is one of many theories that have been floated on this thread. As a fellow 72.5 user, I would love it if their desire to consolidate moved the Fayetteville/Fort Smith DMA up a few slots on the list of upcoming HD LILs.


----------



## steveken

Wow, I am sure glad they put Little Rock on the 110 sat.


----------



## smiddy

Hey guess what? My butt itches!


----------



## P Smith

smiddy said:


> Hey guess what? My butt itches!


Yeah, the thread converted into Dumb-Dumbest contest.


----------



## Newshawk

steveken said:


> Wow, I am sure glad they put Little Rock on the 110 sat.


What?


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> Yeah, the thread converted into Dumb-Dumbest contest.


Mostly placeholders and subtle bumps.


----------



## Ken984

steveken said:


> Wow, I am sure glad they put Little Rock on the 110 sat.


There are no locals on the 110 from DirecTV.


----------



## purtman

Somebody mentioned an Aug. 13 guess earlier as to when D11 will go live. Is this just a guess because of the Olympics? Do we have any legit estimations of D11? Thanks!


----------



## Sixto

purtman said:


> Somebody mentioned an Aug. 13 guess earlier as to when D11 will go live. Is this just a guess because of the Olympics? Do we have any legit estimations of D11? Thanks!


"3rd quarter" has been the official answer.

Someone posted that a friend was in a meeting at DirecTV and 8/13 was the date. Pure rumor though.

With spotbeam testing this week, been a chance that D11 will move after the test. But it all depends on when the BSS testing completes.

Post#2 has the latest ...


----------



## bobnielsen

Those who have authoritative information aren't talking. Directv may not even have a firm date they would commit to, although I am sure there is an unannounced target.


----------



## Jeremy W

purtman said:


> Do we have any legit estimations of D11?


No estimation is really more legit than any other. Nobody that has inside info is sharing.


----------



## purtman

Jeremy, bobnielsen, and Sixto, Thanks! I respect your opinions rather than some who try to see what sticks on the wall, so to speak!


----------



## Sixto

Lots of interesting BSS stuff in this FCC filing from last week (most of which we knew but re-confirmed) ...

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-283460A1.pdf


----------



## moonman

A bit off topic I know, but for those that might be looking for some live action,
SeaLaunch's webcam is active with the upcoming launch of Dish's Echostar XI satellite.
http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/
Sea Launch is now preparing for the launch of the EchoStar XI direct broadcast satellite this July. On this mission, a Zenit-3SL vehicle will lift the 5,511 kg (12,150 lb) spacecraft - the measured separated mass - to Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit, from the launch pad on the Odyssey Launch Platform, positioned on the Equator in the Pacific Ocean. Built on a Space System/Loral 1300-series platform, EchoStar XI will support the expansion of DISH Network capacity to customers throughout the United States.

http://www.sea-launch.com/current_launch.htm


----------



## SParker

moonman said:


> A bit off topic I know, but for those that might be looking for some live action,
> SeaLaunch's webcam is active with the upcoming launch of Dish's Echostar XI satellite.
> http://www.navigon.net/sl/pictures/
> Sea Launch is now preparing for the launch of the EchoStar XI direct broadcast satellite this July. On this mission, a Zenit-3SL vehicle will lift the 5,511 kg (12,150 lb) spacecraft - the measured separated mass - to Geosynchronous Transfer Orbit, from the launch pad on the Odyssey Launch Platform, positioned on the Equator in the Pacific Ocean. Built on a Space System/Loral 1300-series platform, EchoStar XI will support the expansion of DISH Network capacity to customers throughout the United States.
> 
> http://www.sea-launch.com/current_launch.htm


Hopefully a fully successful launch this time. Speaking of that is amc-14 toast now?


----------



## steveholtam

AMC-14 is now owned by our govt. and SLOWLY being moved somewhere useful. Slowly like in YEARS!


----------



## rey_1178

nothing new on the D11?


----------



## Sixto

rey_1178 said:


> nothing new on the D11?


gonna test a spotbeam this week ...

post#2 has the latest ...


----------



## Dave

Why DirectV will not be ready to turn on D11 until September 2008.
The major reason is that they requested and were given permission a long time ago to test BSS at 100.7 for up to (120) days. Testing did not start there until May 15, 2008. So do the math and see what date you will come up with.:nono: :nono: :nono:


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Lots of interesting BSS stuff in this FCC filing from last week (most of which we knew but re-confirmed) ...
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-283460A1.pdf


That's really interesting - a few companies (DTV, E, Pegasus, Intelsat ) start a race for an occupation best slots using BSS scheme. It would be crowded over there soon.


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> That's really interesting - a few companies (DTV, E, Pegasus, Intelsat ) start a race for an occupation best slots using BSS scheme. It would be crowded over there soon.


Are you including Pegasus Satellite TV? Better known to former customers as Pegasucks!

After D* resumed carriage of the customers originally doled out to Pegasus, the latter foundered on the edge of bankruptcy until they were bought out by DirecTV.

A few of us, here, survived those unhappy years of bondage = less service, higher prices.


----------



## gregjones

Dave said:


> Why DirectV will not be ready to turn on D11 until September 2008.
> The major reason is that they requested and were given permission a long time ago to test BSS at 100.7 for up to (120) days. Testing did not start there until May 15, 2008. So do the math and see what date you will come up with.:nono: :nono: :nono:


Up to 120 days does not mean it will last 120 days. It means that it will last no more than 120 days without a separate filing.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Dave said:


> Why DirectV will not be ready to turn on D11 until September 2008.
> The major reason is that they requested and were given permission a long time ago to test BSS at 100.7 for up to (120) days. Testing did not start there until May 15, 2008. So do the math and see what date you will come up with.:nono: :nono: :nono:


It most likely won't take 60 days let alone 120.


----------



## msmith

Dave said:


> Why DirectV will not be ready to turn on D11 until September 2008.
> The major reason is that they requested and were given permission a long time ago to test BSS at 100.7 for up to (120) days. Testing did not start there until May 15, 2008. So do the math and see what date you will come up with.:nono: :nono: :nono:


I dunno. If they're testing a Ka spotbeam at 100.7 this week, it implies to me that they're done with BSS testing. I suspect it'll be headed back to 99 next week, and perhaps live in August.


----------



## cartrivision

FHSPSU67 said:


> Dave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why DirectV will not be ready to turn on D11 until September 2008.
> The major reason is that they requested and were given permission a long time ago to test BSS at 100.7 for up to (120) days. Testing did not start there until May 15, 2008. So do the math and see what date you will come up with.:nono: :nono: :nono:
> 
> 
> 
> It most likely won't take 60 days let alone 120.
Click to expand...

And BSS testing most likely has been completed since DirecTV just last week requested permission from the FCC to do Ka testing at 100.7W for two days this week.

I interpret that request as saying that DirecTV has finished with BSS testing and wants to do 2 days of Ka testing at the test slot before moving to 99W next week and starting to broadcast from it's final orbital slot.


----------



## computersecguy

Is there any reason that they would be testing Ka spot beams from 100.7 and not from the 99.225? Could this be more of a test of Ka and BSS on the same bird, i.e. D12 gets a production BSS package and starts broadcasting from the 100.7 location with a Ka for spot capacity?


----------



## dragonbait

msmith said:


> I dunno. If they're testing a Ka spotbeam at 100.7 this week, it implies to me that they're done with BSS testing. I suspect it'll be headed back to 99 next week, and perhaps live in August.


The new test does not rule out continued testing of BSS. The new test could just as easily imply that DirecTV wants to test Ka with BSS and/or Ku.


----------



## cartrivision

dragonbait said:


> The new test does not rule out continued testing of BSS. The new test could just as easily imply that DirecTV wants to test Ka with BSS and/or Ku.


It doesn't rule out BSS testing continuing, but the last minute filing for the Ka test less than a week ago coupled with only two days of Ka testing being requested, suggests that all of the originally planned BSS testing has been completed and that DirecTV decided to get in a final two days of previously unplanned Ka testing before moving the satellite from the test slot to it's final operational slot.

I think that D11 will be at 99W (or moving in that direction) by the end of next week.


----------



## cartrivision

steveholtam said:


> AMC-14 is now owned by our govt. and SLOWLY being moved somewhere useful. Slowly like in YEARS!


I'd guess that it's not going to get in much of a more useful orbit than where it is now. They already made significant changes in it's inclination and eccentricity&#8230; probably using up the majority of what was supposed to be final positioning and station keeping fuel to do some of what the failed launch vehicle did not do, but despite having moved significantly towards a geostationary orbit (compared to where it was just after launch), it still remains in a highly elliptical and highly inclined orbit which I doubt can be improved much more. That doesn't mean that it is completely useless in it's current orbit&#8230;. just that it isn't always overhead for any point on earth and that it has to be dynamically tracked by any uplink or downlink stations since it isn't stationary.


----------



## ziltomil

Does anyone know if this new filing supercedes and precludes the previous filing? e.i. these 2 days of Ka testing prevent them from further testing BSS without refiling for authorization?


----------



## P Smith

Ed Campbell said:


> Are you including Pegasus Satellite TV? Better known to former customers as Pegasucks!
> 
> After D* resumed carriage of the customers originally doled out to Pegasus, the latter foundered on the edge of bankruptcy until they were bought out by DirecTV.
> 
> A few of us, here, survived those unhappy years of bondage = less service, higher prices.


Nope. Different one.

"Pegasus Development DBS Corporation"


----------



## The Scotsman

I got an automated phone call today from DirecTV, telling me they're cutting off my 'long distance' HD locals in the 80's channel number range. The recording said D* are obligated by law to do this, because my local market will be providing HD locals by that date. At present, we get ABC and Fox in HD from D* originated from the local broadcasters. The message also said I should call their 1-800 number with any questions. I did call the 1-800 number and the CSR had no knowledge of any new services being uplinked from my local area. He even denied there was a new satellite up there, still being tested. I live in Stroudsburg PA, so my local market is Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. Perhaps there is a plan to have D11 offering new services on or before the 7th of August. Fingers crossed.


----------



## lwilli201

The Scotsman said:


> I got an automated phone call today from DirecTV, telling me they're cutting off my 'long distance' HD locals in the 80's channel number range. The recording said D* are obligated by law to do this, because my local market will be providing HD locals by that date. At present, we get ABC and Fox in HD from D* originated from the local broadcasters. The message also said I should call their 1-800 number with any questions. I did call the 1-800 number and the CSR had no knowledge of any new services being uplinked from my local area. He even denied there was a new satellite up there, still being tested. I live in Stroudsburg PA, so my local market is Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. Perhaps there is a plan to have D11 offering new services on or before the 7th of August. Fingers crossed.


Got the same call. I got FOX East HD back before my big 4 locals went HD. I am supprised I have had the East feed this long.


----------



## cartrivision

ziltomil said:


> Does anyone know if this new filing supercedes and precludes the previous filing? e.i. these 2 days of Ka testing prevent them from further testing BSS without refiling for authorization?


There is nothing to indicate that last Tuesday's filing reverses or invalidates any previous testing authority that has been granted by the FCC, but it does seem to suggest that DirecTV has finished up all of the other testing covered by all of the previously filed requests and decided to request permission to test one last thing for just two days before they move the satellite to 99W and go "operational".


----------



## Steve615

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132634



The Scotsman said:


> I got an automated phone call today from DirecTV, telling me they're cutting off my 'long distance' HD locals in the 80's channel number range. The recording said D* are obligated by law to do this, because my local market will be providing HD locals by that date. At present, we get ABC and Fox in HD from D* originated from the local broadcasters. The message also said I should call their 1-800 number with any questions. I did call the 1-800 number and the CSR had no knowledge of any new services being uplinked from my local area. He even denied there was a new satellite up there, still being tested. I live in Stroudsburg PA, so my local market is Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. Perhaps there is a plan to have D11 offering new services on or before the 7th of August. Fingers crossed.


----------



## raoul5788

lwilli201 said:


> Got the same call. I got FOX East HD back before my big 4 locals went HD. I am supprised I have had the East feed this long.


I got it, too. I thought because the local NBC is an O & O, I would be able to keep the out of market channel, but I guess not.


----------



## Dave

Probably just means they have completed some carriage issue with the large corps. Didn't they just make a deal with a very large corp for locals?


----------



## Sixto

Noticeable change to D11 ... appears to be very tight geostationary (35,787 x 35,787) for spotbeam test (or a TLE hiccup) ... 


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE125)
1 32729U 08013A   08190.54275888 -.00000119  00000-0  10000-3 0  1257
2 32729 000.0145 016.5598 0000087 190.4628 174.5018 01.00270840  1238

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B]07-08-2008 13:01:34[/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	123
Inclination		0.015
RA of A. Node		16.560
Eccentricity		0.0000087
Argument of Perigee	190.463
Revs per day		1.00270840
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B]35 787 x 35 787 km[/B]
Element number / age	125 / 0 day(s)

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#125(07-08-2008 13:01:34) [B]35,787 x 35,787 km[/B] (+ 5.8 hours,at 110.8 days, [B]100.70°[/B])
TLE#124(07-08-2008 07:15:17) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+47.5 hours,at 110.6 days, 100.71°)
TLE#123(07-06-2008 07:42:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+48.8 hours,at 108.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#122(07-04-2008 06:55:23) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+19.9 hours,at 106.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#121(07-03-2008 10:59:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+46.7 hours,at 105.7 days, 100.70°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## woj027

I'm not sure if a BSS conversation is supposed to happen here, but since D11 is/was testing the new technology I'd give it a shot.

Does anyone have an idea (guess, wild guess) about how the future BSS system will be integrated?

Will we have a super BBC that helps convert the signal? 
Will our reciever/dish get everything we need as is? 
Will we need new receivers? 
What is the timeline for BSS (if it does work)? (2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs)
What about frogs?

I asked this here because the BSS thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261 is closed


----------



## keithtd

Can someone remind me which Sat # D11 will come up under "Signal Strength" and the transponder assignments namely local HD spots?
TIA.


----------



## computersecguy

keithtd said:


> Can someone remind me which Sat # D11 will come up under "Signal Strength" and the transponder assignments namely local HD spots?
> TIA.


Depends on your system. It should either show up as 99A or 99C. C is the designator for conus on some of the newer receivers and HR models.

I don't think anyone knows what channels will be associated with which transponders quite yet. If they do, I hope they share so we will all know what festivus will bring.


----------



## smiddy

woj027 said:


> I'm not sure if a BSS conversation is supposed to happen here, but since D11 is/was testing the new technology I'd give it a shot.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea (guess, wild guess) about how the future BSS system will be integrated?
> 
> Will we have a super BBC that helps convert the signal?
> Will our reciever/dish get everything we need as is?
> Will we need new receivers?
> What is the timeline for BSS (if it does work)? (2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs)
> What about frogs?
> 
> I asked this here because the BSS thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261 is closed


I think Tom Robertson is in the best position to answer your questions but I will take a stab at these since you did ask for a WAG.

I beleive BBCs will be a thing of the past considering the newer technology has them included, so to speak (actually totally different design). The idea is that those higher frequencies (17 GHz and 24 GHz for BSS) get down converted to useable frequencies. The SWM take care of this downconversion by allocating channels, this is with both the SWM ODU LNB and stand alone SWM. A similar type of equipment will be required for the downconversion of those specific frequencies. There is also the likelyhood that an entirely new LNB would be needed too, however the reflector dish for the current antenna should cover what is needed since they are higher frequencies (smaller wavelength in the same area means more power). I think a firmware change to the SWM would help it maintain and enhance capability to what is needed for BSS combined with a new, probably higher bandwidth LNB, parked where DirecTV 11 is currently parked. Though I would say this technology is being pushed, it won't be mature enough for at least 5 years and perhaps 7 years.

As for frogs, I like them with a decent butter sauce. 

Tom, please interject your thoughts...


----------



## smiddy

keithtd said:


> Can someone remind me which Sat # D11 will come up under "Signal Strength" and the transponder assignments namely local HD spots?
> TIA.


The expectation on the HR2x series is it will show up as 99c with a similar number of transponders as DirecTV 10 on 103c, though I don't think DirecTV knows what transponders they intend to use for what yet. This from what I've reaad here and experienced in September of last year is that these will pop up one day when DirecTV wants you to see them.


----------



## evan_s

woj027 said:


> I'm not sure if a BSS conversation is supposed to happen here, but since D11 is/was testing the new technology I'd give it a shot.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea (guess, wild guess) about how the future BSS system will be integrated?
> 
> Will we have a super BBC that helps convert the signal?
> Will our reciever/dish get everything we need as is?
> Will we need new receivers?
> What is the timeline for BSS (if it does work)? (2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs)
> What about frogs?
> 
> I asked this here because the BSS thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261 is closed


Most of this is currently unknown.

The BBC takes the signal that the dishes multiswitch converts to the 250-750mhz range and pushes it up to higher frequency that the receiver can tune normally. This really has nothing to do with the specific tech used by the satellites and is more about fitting everything into the stacking plan. Currently the stacking plan is pretty full and getting BSS working would probably require a new stacking plan, maybe with a slimline 3 that doesn't have spots in the stacking plan for 110/119 or SWM. SWM would require an updated firmware but the units aren't designed to be updated in the field currently.

The Dish is probably ok since this is actually closer to the original DBS frequencies than the new ka sats are. The LNB probably isn't set up to receive those frequencies and would probably need to be replaced.

New receivers less likely to be required since the LNB can take any signal it receives and convert it into a range that the receiver can handle. An updated SWM would almost guarantee that our current receivers that handle SWM would be fine.

As far as timeframe goes it's really hard to tell. The government hasn't even finalized how or when companies will be able to use BSS which was part of the purpose of the testing. Beyond that DirecTV has quite a bit of bandwidth still left to be utilized in the KA slots and personally I expect to see D12 and another sat launched before those are really maxed out. That puts us to probably 2010 or so.


----------



## Sixto

D11 conus ("c") transponders will be 99(c) ... spotbeam ("s") transponders will be 99(s) ... on HR2x receivers ... H2x receivers still have the old format of (a) and (b) ...


----------



## Hdhead

Nice article and pics from where D11 was hatched!

http://spaceflightnow.com/sealaunch/echostar11/tour/


----------



## JLucPicard

Hdhead said:


> Nice article and pics from where D11 was hatched!
> 
> http://spaceflightnow.com/sealaunch/echostar11/tour/


What I'm reading in that article has to do with EchoStar 11. Am I missing something?


----------



## Tom Robertson

woj027 said:


> I'm not sure if a BSS conversation is supposed to happen here, but since D11 is/was testing the new technology I'd give it a shot.
> 
> Does anyone have an idea (guess, wild guess) about how the future BSS system will be integrated?
> 
> Will we have a super BBC that helps convert the signal?
> Will our reciever/dish get everything we need as is?
> Will we need new receivers?
> What is the timeline for BSS (if it does work)? (2yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs)
> What about frogs?
> 
> I asked this here because the BSS thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87261 is closed


If BSS is used for the general population, DIRECTV will definitely need to replace or augment the dish/LNB (perhaps just the LNB), and quite likely some switches and receivers (this part is a guess).

The trick is where will the BSS downlink frequencies fit into the current stack plans of downlinked signals? Perhaps DIRECTV can go into higher frequencies above 2,150MHz? Perhaps they will create switchs/LNBs that use more signals to select which stack of LNBs the receivers will request.

Timeline is likely no less than 3 years and likely not much more than 5 years after the FCC makes its final allocations of orbital slots. But... that 5 years might be how soon DIRECTV starts using the signals and not necessarily to the home. DIRECTV might start using them as backhauls first.

Frogs are ugly in my opinion, but a very necessary part of the global economy... 

I'll re-open the thread now that things are warming up again.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## milfab

Tom Robertson said:


> If BSS is used for the general population, DIRECTV will definitely need to replace or augment the dish/LNB (perhaps just the LNB), and quite likely some switches and receivers (this part is a guess).
> 
> The trick is where will the BSS downlink frequencies fit into the current stack plans of downlinked signals? Perhaps DIRECTV can go into higher frequencies above 2,150MHz? Perhaps they will create switchs/LNBs that use more signals to select which stack of LNBs the receivers will request.
> 
> Timeline is likely no less than 3 years and likely not much more than 5 years after the FCC makes its final allocations of orbital slots. But... that 5 years might be how soon DIRECTV starts using the signals and not necessarily to the home. DIRECTV might start using them as backhauls first.


I have no technical expertise but I guess an optical connection between LNB and receivers (or special switches?) could give a permanent solution.

I cannot post a link. There is an article the May issue of Tele-Satellite magazine or just google for 'Global Invacom Optical LNB'.

Whether Directv will use this technology or not I have no idea. Just posting this to let you know.


----------



## tuff bob

SWM LNB's is the fix, the receivers request a transponder ID and gives an SWM channel number and the LNB sorts out getting that to the receiver. It potentially is a limitless solution in terms of satellites.


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> SWM LNB's is the fix, the receivers request a transponder ID and gives an SWM channel number and the LNB sorts out getting that to the receiver. It potentially is a limitless solution in terms of satellites.


Yep, certainly the easy way future wise.

Geez, I wonder if DirecTV thought of that ...


----------



## evan_s

tuff bob said:


> SWM LNB's is the fix, the receivers request a transponder ID and gives an SWM channel number and the LNB sorts out getting that to the receiver. It potentially is a limitless solution in terms of satellites.


SWM LNB is one of the solutions but it won't ever be the only one. It simply can't serve all possible installs. The 8 tuners is plenty for most home setups but is simply impossible for it to handle more than 8 tuners ever. Some sort of other solution will have to be devised for MDU's, homes with more than 8 tuners and other similar situations where 8 tuners isn't enough. SWM LNB will probably become the standard install for home setups but there will always need to be another option.


----------



## keithtd

Sixto said:


> D11 conus ("c") transponders will be 99(c) ... spotbeam ("s") transponders will be 99(s) ... on HR2x receivers ... H2x receivers still have the old format of (a) and (b) ...


If I read you right then I'm getting signals from D11 on transponders 1-6 on 99(s).


----------



## Jeremy W

evan_s said:


> Some sort of other solution will have to be devised for MDU's, homes with more than 8 tuners and other similar situations where 8 tuners isn't enough.


MFH2/MFH3 would be that solution. Already devised, already in place at many installations.


----------



## Jeremy W

keithtd said:


> If I read you right then I'm getting signals from D11 on transponders 1-6 on 99(s).


Those signals are from Spaceway 2, not D11.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> MFH2/MFH3 would be that solution. Already devised, already in place at many installations.


Well---yes and no. The stackplan from the dish to the SWM still needs adjusting. The SWM to the receiver might not (tho I wonder if the SWM might need a software upgrade to handle the new stack plan. Or is that already in the protocol somehow?)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## SPACEMAKER

It's been so long since they launched D11 that I forgot about it.


----------



## Sixto

keithtd said:


> If I read you right then I'm getting signals from D11 on transponders 1-6 on 99(s).


As Jeremy inferred, (c) and (s) are not satellite specific ... multiple satellites can fill the transponder list ... 99(s) today is just the Spaceway ... soon to also be D11 ...


----------



## Sixto

SPACEMAKER said:


> It's been so long since they launched D11 that I forgot about it.


111.7 days to be exact ... 

according to the last TLE ...


Code:


TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## SPACEMAKER

Sixto said:


> 111.7 days to be exact ...
> 
> according to the last TLE ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


:lol: Nice.


----------



## Fibertec

Tom Robertson said:


> If BSS is used for the general population, DIRECTV will definitely need to replace or augment the dish/LNB (perhaps just the LNB), and quite likely some switches and receivers (this part is a guess).
> 
> The trick is where will the BSS downlink frequencies fit into the current stack plans of downlinked signals? Perhaps DIRECTV can go into higher frequencies above 2,150MHz? Perhaps they will create switchs/LNBs that use more signals to select which stack of LNBs the receivers will request.
> 
> Timeline is likely no less than 3 years and likely not much more than 5 years after the FCC makes its final allocations of orbital slots. But... that 5 years might be how soon DIRECTV starts using the signals and not necessarily to the home. DIRECTV might start using them as backhauls first.
> 
> Frogs are ugly in my opinion, but a very necessary part of the global economy...
> 
> I'll re-open the thread now that things are warming up again.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Isn't it also possible that the BSS band may never be used for Sat. to end user use, and only for used as a new frequency for back hauling locals and content providers?


----------



## evan_s

Tom Robertson said:


> Well---yes and no. The stackplan from the dish to the SWM still needs adjusting. The SWM to the receiver might not (tho I wonder if the SWM might need a software upgrade to handle the new stack plan. Or is that already in the protocol somehow?)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks that was my point. I don't know how MF3 handles it but MF2 still requires something to get all the signals from the dish to the swm8's that are powering the MF2 system. Currently the stack plan is very full and doesn't really have any slots open. Because of the way the swm tech works it needs access to all possible signals so it can send what ever transponder the receivers request. Even if they did come up with another signaling option you would still need an updated swm with probably 6 inputs so it could have every possible signaling option at once. I also have a hard time seeing them taking 110/119 out of the stack plan for a MF2 system if those are going to be used for locals and foreign language options.










As you can see once D11 is functional all 12 500mhz spots in the stack will have something in them and any future orbital slots/frequencies (bss) would require a change to fit them in and a SWM8 would have to have some way to read them from the sat. Ka-Hi and Ka-Low are 2 different frequency bands, 18.3-18.8GHz and 19.7-20.2GHz. So D* has tons of bandwidth to use there. Based on the stack plan and that the spots can work with out the bbc that would indicate that the spots are on the Ka-Hi and the conus are on the Ka-Lo which makes sense.

If I was to guess I'd assume the receiver just requests an orbital slot and transponder based on a channel mapping or something similar and the SWM8 has enough intelligence in it to know where in the stack that is. Since the stack plan doesn't impact the way the signal is sent out of the SWM8 and it always has access to the entire stack I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be handled entirely by the SWM8 but I have nothing to prove one way or another so could be completely wrong.

Fibertec-

Yes it is possible D* may never use BSS for the general population since it already has the equivalent of 5 full orbital slots from just 99/101/103. It actually ends up being more than that because the ka bands can be used more efficiently with larger transponders and newer technology.

Dish on the other hand I expect to see jumping on BSS as soon as they can since they haven't gone for any of the Ka stats that D* has. I don't know off hand what dish has but some quick digging showed they had 110/119 and 129 with some transponders on 110/119 being allocated to DirecTV and not them. Obviously a lot less for them to work with.


----------



## bobnielsen

Tom Robertson said:


> Well---yes and no. The stackplan from the dish to the SWM still needs adjusting. The SWM to the receiver might not (tho I wonder if the SWM might need a software upgrade to handle the new stack plan. Or is that already in the protocol somehow?)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If it were limited to an integrated SWMLine-type dish, the switching could be done with more than 4 inputs and the quadrastate 13/18v + 22kHz logic wouldn't be necessary. A new LNB configuration would be needed in any case, so the accompanying SWM could easily have more capability than the current model.


----------



## Paul A

evan_s said:


> which makes sense.


Indubitably


----------



## Tom Robertson

Fibertec said:


> Isn't it also possible that the BSS band may never be used for Sat. to end user use, and only for used as a new frequency for back hauling locals and content providers?


Yes, this is definitely a possibility. Or BSS could be used for some completely different type of service altogether.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

evan_s said:


> Thanks that was my point. I don't know how MF3 handles it but MF2 still requires something to get all the signals from the dish to the swm8's that are powering the MF2 system. Currently the stack plan is very full and doesn't really have any slots open. Because of the way the swm tech works it needs access to all possible signals so it can send what ever transponder the receivers request. Even if they did come up with another signaling option you would still need an updated swm with probably 6 inputs so it could have every possible signaling option at once. I also have a hard time seeing them taking 110/119 out of the stack plan for a MF2 system if those are going to be used for locals and foreign language options.
> ...


Sorry, didn't mean to ignore your post. You were correct then and even more detailed in this post. 

"That's a negative Ghost rider, the [stack] pattern is full." 

Yeah, they can't get rid of 110/119 for exactly the reasons you mention.

The only place I know of is up, 4 more blocks at 2,350 to 2,850MHz which would cover Ka at 101... 

Or advanced DiSeq switching rather than stack plans but there are still lots of issues there too.

In other words, it will be interesting 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Or advanced DiSeq switching rather than stack plans but there are still lots of issues there too.


I don't understand how DiSeq could solve the problem, since the SWM needs to be able to see every satellite location at all times.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> I don't understand how DiSeq could solve the problem, since the SWM needs to be able to see every satellite location at all times.


Actually a SWM only needs to see 9 blocks of transponders at one time. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually a SWM only needs to see 9 blocks of transponders at one time.


Hah, excellent point!


----------



## RobertE

Tom Robertson said:


> Sorry, didn't mean to ignore your post. You were correct then and even more detailed in this post.
> 
> "That's a negative Ghost rider, the [stack] pattern is full."
> 
> Yeah, they can't get rid of 110/119 for exactly the reasons you mention.
> 
> The only place I know of is up, 4 more blocks at 2,350 to 2,850MHz which would cover Ka at 101...
> 
> Or advanced DiSeq switching rather than stack plans but there are still lots of issues there too.
> 
> In other words, it will be interesting
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Also keep in mind that all external SWM units have two flex ports. While currently used for the 72.5 & 95 sat positions, they could be used for other things. Hence the name Flex Port instead of 72.5 & 95 in.


----------



## Fibertec

RobertE said:


> Also keep in mind that all external SWM units have two flex ports. While currently used for the 72.5 & 95 sat positions, they could be used for other things. Hence the name Flex Port instead of 72.5 & 95 in.


So how does the "Flex Ports" fit into the current stack plan, do they only use 200mhz in between one of the current groupings?


----------



## tuff bob

evan_s said:


> SWM LNB is one of the solutions but it won't ever be the only one. It simply can't serve all possible installs. The 8 tuners is plenty for most home setups but is simply impossible for it to handle more than 8 tuners ever.


That's not really true. There's no reason why DirecTV couldn't devise a "dual output" SWM LNB, so each of the feeds can serve up to 8 tuners.


----------



## P Smith

The SWM detail speculation required its own thread - would our Mods move all the SWM related posts into new thread and help to keep the tread on topic ?!


----------



## Steve Robertson

P Smith said:


> The SWM detail speculation required its own thread - would our Mods move all the SWM related posts into new thread and help to keep the tread on topic ?!


Great idea


----------



## Tigerman73

Sixto said:


> 111.7 days to be exact ...
> 
> according to the last TLE ...
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
> 
> [URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


Keep an eye on this one, it's moved off it's tight positioning for the spotbeam testing, we may be at the beginning of a move if they are done with testing at 101.


----------



## merchione

man it feels like its taking forever!!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> The SWM detail speculation required its own thread - would our Mods move all the SWM related posts into new thread and help to keep the tread on topic ?!





Steve Robertson said:


> Great idea


I think we've already crossed the bridge at this point, but yes folks .. please let's get :backtotop .. SWM discussions really shouldn't be here.


----------



## Sixto

Tigerman73 said:


> Keep an eye on this one, it's moved off it's tight positioning for the spotbeam testing, we may be at the beginning of a move if they are done with testing at 101.


oh yeah, I gotta start trackin that new satellite ... what's it's name ... oh yeah, D11 ... 

btw, leanin towards that 35,787 x 35,787 TLE as a TLE "hiccup" but you never know ... it might have really tightened for a few hours ... also, is starting to drift slightly (100.72° at today's TLE) ...



Code:


TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## QuickDrop

I'm not sure if this is on topic, but in this thread about the HD extra pack and the Olympics http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132761&page=2 Satelliteracer is claiming MPEG 4 versions of those channels will launch later this month. Unless there's room on D10 DirecTV would rather use for simulcasts than new channels...


----------



## cforrest

Guess D* will hopefully move D11 into place in the next few weeks. Once that happens, E* and the 17 new HD channels they just announced for August 1st will be trumped by D* with D11 turned on and adding HD.


----------



## keithtd

Jeremy W said:


> Those signals are from Spaceway 2, not D11.


Dang, got my hopes up!


----------



## merchione

RAD said:


> Could this be a nice hint from Satelliteracer that D11 will be up by the end of the month for new programming, http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1674265&postcount=29


Thats sounds very promising!!!!! nice find


----------



## Ed Campbell

cforrest said:


> E* and the 17 new HD channels they just announced for August 1st...


Have they announced which channels they'll be taking down to provide the bandwidth?


----------



## cartrivision

QuickDrop said:


> I'm not sure if this is on topic, but in this thread about the HD extra pack and the Olympics http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132761&page=2 Satelliteracer is claiming MPEG 4 versions of those channels will launch later this month. Unless there's room on D10 DirecTV would rather use for simulcasts than new channels...


So given that Satelliteracer is a pretty reliable source, I think that we will see the first new channels from D11 on July 23rd... probably starting with MPEG4 mirrors of the various MPEG2 HD channels, and then on July 30th, hopefully some actual new HD channels (HBO, MAX,Trav) that have been only SD or not there at all up until now.


----------



## cartrivision

Ed Campbell said:


> Have they announced which channels they'll be taking down to provide the bandwidth?


Dish will probably just further down-res and overcompress everything to make it all fit.


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> Dish will probably just further down-res and overcompress everything to make it all fit.


sorta like Uverse?


----------



## Sixto

That one short post by satelliteracer may tell us everything we need to know ... 

The TLE's will tell us very soon.


----------



## smiddy

Man, now I'm getting excited...I hope there is good news with the next TLE...come on DirecTV 11, we want more HD!


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> That one short post by satelliteracer may tell us everything we need to know ...
> 
> The TLE's will tell us very soon.





smiddy said:


> Man, now I'm getting excited...I hope there is good news with the next TLE...come on DirecTV 11, we want more HD!


Do you think with yesterdays announcement by E* we'll see new HD's sooner then later?


----------



## mcbeevee

theratpatrol said:


> Do you think with yesterdays announcement by E* we'll see new HD's sooner then later?


I hope so. I'm sure Directv does not wan't Dish to pass them up on the HD channel count, even if it is temporary!


----------



## Sixto

theratpatrol said:


> Do you think with yesterdays announcement by E* we'll see new HD's sooner then later?


The marketing strategy is probably all set. Either they're going to make a splash prior to E* to steal their thunder, or shortly afterwards to slap them down. Probably pro's and con's of each strategy.

Or it may just depend technically on when they're ready. They could have went "live" a month ago but decided that their future (BSS testing) is very important for their subscribers.

They seem to be talking of very strategic view with D11. Nice to see a company planning for the future instead of worrying about a few weeks of marketing hype or short term goals.

We'll know very soon.


----------



## mhayes70

Sixto said:


> That one short post by satelliteracer may tell us everything we need to know ...
> 
> The TLE's will tell us very soon.


Yeah, it is looking like according to satelliteracer and his post lately that we will be seeing channels from D11 within the next 2 weeks. I am so excited!!!! :joy:


----------



## Sixto

mhayes70 said:


> Yeah, it is looking like according to satelliteracer and his post lately that we will be seeing channels from D11 within the next 2 weeks. I am so excited!!!! :joy:


He did follow it up with another post: "You're reading a bit too much into it, but certainly many more HD channels are on their way and soon."

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1675206&postcount=5

All depends on the definition of "soon"


----------



## mhayes70

Sixto said:


> Her did follow it up with another post: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1675206&postcount=5
> 
> All depends on the definition of "soon"


Very true. But, whenever they get here I am ready.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

Soon? Did somebody say SOON?


----------



## Sixto

Also, using D10 as a reference ... from the day the move starts, they could be "live" within 7-10 days (if they wanted/needed to) .... if they started moving today, 7/23 6am is easy. 

But, they surely have a plan, and it will be whatever the plan is, as we watch from the outside.

7/30, 8/6, or latest 8/13 seem more likely at the moment. We'll see ...


----------



## Steve Robertson

mhayes70 said:


> Very true. But, whenever they get here I am ready.


I love the word SOON


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Nice to see a company planning for the future instead of worrying about a few weeks of marketing hype or short term goals.


The heavily hyped long term goal was to have had D11 up and running a year ago.


----------



## Sixto

Steve Robertson said:


> I love the word SOON


Satelliteracer also said "I definitely meant the end of this month."

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1674483&postcount=34

There are other options for UHD in MPEG-4. They could do on existing satellite but that just doesn't seem likely. Certainly seems like a reference to D11.


----------



## mhayes70

Sixto said:


> Satelliteracer also said "I definitely meant the end of this month."
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1674483&postcount=34
> 
> There are other options for UHD in MPEG-4. They could do on existing satellite but that just doesn't seem likely. Certainly seems like a reference to D11.


Yes, that is the post that got my hopes up.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Sixto said:


> Satelliteracer also said "I definitely meant the end of this month."
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1674483&postcount=34
> 
> There are other options for UHD in MPEG-4. They could do on existing satellite but that just doesn't seem likely. Certainly seems like a reference to D11.


I guess we will find out in the next 20 days. I just hope the ESPN'S go to MPEG 4


----------



## mhayes70

Steve Robertson said:


> I love the word SOON


Oh, yes... One of my favorite words on this board. :lol:


----------



## JLucPicard

harsh said:


> The heavily hyped long term goal was to have had D11 up and running a year ago.


:beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

Sometimes I wonder why you even post. Then I wind up wondering why I even read them.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> The heavily hyped long term goal was to have had D11 up and running a year ago.


A year ago? No, that was D10. Did you miss the big to-do last fall when we got all that great HD? :lol:

Sure, Directv DID want to have D11 launched a lot sooner than this spring, however. Maybe you missed it, but it was the Ukrainians who were responsible for those manufacturing flaws in the Zenit first stage that had the "uncontrolled combustion event" on its launch platform, something nobody foresaw or planned for.

And by the same token, I'm sure E* didn't want their leased bird stranded in a useless orbit but since you apparently don't know, it IS rocket science. 

Do please go troll somewhere else.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> The heavily hyped long term goal was to have had D11 up and running a year ago.


Lefty said it very well ...

A satellite explodes on the SeaLaunch platform and somehow DirecTV has failed their customers? Geez. Not worth the energy to debate this here.

Actually, a short-sighted company might have then rushed D11 to "live". But, nop, DirecTV stayed steady with the plan ... performing BSS testing just as scheduled to best prepare for the future ...


----------



## FHSPSU67

LameLefty said:


> A year ago? No, that was D10. Did you miss the big to-do last fall when we got all that great HD? :lol:
> 
> Sure, Directv DID want to have D11 launched a lot sooner than this spring, however. Maybe you missed it, but it was the Ukrainians who were responsible for those manufacturing flaws in the Zenit first stage that had the "uncontrolled combustion event" on its launch platform, something nobody foresaw or planned for.
> 
> And by the same token, I'm sure E* didn't want their leased bird stranded in a useless orbit but since you apparently don't know, it IS rocket science.
> 
> Do please go troll somewhere else.


Extremely well done, LameLefty!
:goodjob:


----------



## JLucPicard

LameLefty,

Not surprisingly, you said it SOOOO much better than I did!


----------



## Sirshagg

flyingtigerfan said:


> Soon? Did somebody say SOON?


someone said the magic word.


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> Satelliteracer also said "I definitely meant the end of this month."
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1674483&postcount=34
> 
> There are other options for UHD in MPEG-4. They could do on existing satellite but that just doesn't seem likely. Certainly seems like a reference to D11.


Is it realisticly possible to ge the sat in the right position in this timeframe?


----------



## QuickDrop

Sixto said:


> Her did follow it up with another post: "You're reading a bit too much into it, but certainly many more HD channels are on their way and soon."
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1675206&postcount=5
> 
> All depends on the definition of "soon"


It's difficult to ascertain what Satelliteracer meant by that post. The poster he was responding to seemed to believe that DirecTV would match the channels Dish says they will offer beginning Aug. 1 (Some of which, D* doesn't even offer in SD), plus add additional channels by then. I don't believe DirecTV business model is as knee-jerk as that. My one hesitation is that an inside source, which Satelliteracer has definitely established himself as being, basically revealing when D11 will go live is somewhat strange. At the same time, I can't believe that D* would simulcast the HD Extra Pack channels in Mpeg-4 unless they were certain they had HD capacity to play with.


----------



## Ed Campbell

JLucPicard said:


> :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Sometimes I wonder why you even post. Then I wind up wondering why I even read them.


The basic function of a troll has never been to provoke thought or discussion. More like a persistent whine. Like a mosquito near your ear.


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> Is it realistically possible to ge the sat in the right position in this timeframe?


Yes.

Takes 1-3 days to get to 99.225. D10 showed signal same day. D10 was to go "live" within a week but had unrelated authorization issue which pushed things back a week. 7-10 days from arrival is technically doable.

Totally depends on what testing/setup is still required.


----------



## Sixto

QuickDrop said:


> It's difficult to ascertain what Satelliteracer meant by that post. The poster he was responding to seemed to believe that DirecTV would match the channels Dish says they will offer beginning Aug. 1 (Some of which, D* doesn't even offer in SD), plus add additional channels by then. I don't believe DirecTV business model is as knee-jerk as that. My one hesitation is that an inside source, which Satelliteracer has definitely established himself as being, basically revealing when D11 will go live is somewhat strange. At the same time, I can't believe that D* would simulcast the HD Extra Pack channels in Mpeg-4 unless they were certain they had HD capacity to play with.


He seemed to be implying that UHD and other MPEG2 legacy HD channels would be "live" by the end-of-July.

Seems very unlikely to transition to MPEG4 on the existing non-D11 satellites. Possible, but very unlikely.


----------



## QuickDrop

Ed Campbell said:


> The basic function of a troll has never been to provoke thought or discussion. More like a persistent whine. Like a mosquito near your ear.


From what I've seen of his posts, Harsh is more a contrarian than a troll. Though when your position is always to disagree with the company line, regardless of the facts, it is sometimes hard to tell the difference.


----------



## Sixto

Today's FCC filings:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-283608A1.pdf

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1637A1.pdf​Spot beam testing was approved:"On July 7, 2008, the Satellite Policy Branch granted special temporary authority to DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) for a period of two days between July 7, 2008 and July 11, 2008, to conduct in-orbit testing of DIRECTV 11 satellite using the 29.437 GHz uplink (Earth-to-space) and 18.732 GHz downlink (space-to-Earth) frequencies at the 100.7 W.L. orbital location, using the Los Angeles downlink spot beam ..."​


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> Yes.
> 
> Takes 1-3 days to get to 99.225. D10 showed signal same day. D10 was to go "live" within a week but had unrelated authorization issue which pushed things back a week. 7-10 days from arrival is technically doable.
> 
> Totally depends on what testing/setup is still required.


Cool. Thx


----------



## mbuser

Sixto said:


> Today's FCC filings:http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-283608A1.pdf
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1637A1.pdf​Spot beam testing was approved:"On July 7, 2008, the Satellite Policy Branch granted special temporary authority to DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC (DIRECTV) for a period of two days between July 7, 2008 and July 11, 2008, to conduct in-orbit testing of DIRECTV 11 satellite using the 29.437 GHz uplink (Earth-to-space) and 18.732 GHz downlink (space-to-Earth) frequencies at the 100.7 W.L. orbital location, using the Los Angeles downlink spot beam ..."​


So, since today is the 11th, spot beam testing should be completing (or already completed) and 11 should be ready to start its move.


----------



## Sixto

mbuser said:


> So, since today is the 11th, spot beam testing should be completing (or already completed) and 11 should be ready to start its move.


as long as the BSS testing is complete ... they have authorization for 120 days from 5/15/2008 to test BSS ... all depends on how far along they are ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> as long as the BSS testing is complete ... they have authorization for 120 days from 5/15/2008 to test BSS ... all depends on how far along they are ...


I bet they have been testing both payloads side by side during these couple of days to check for interference of collocated payloads at or near the same location in space.


----------



## bobnielsen

Patience, gang! The testing at 100.7 will pay off in the long term and it is a one-time chance to do this.

To paraphrase Orson Welles, they will activate no satellite before its time.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> The heavily hyped long term goal was to have had D11 up and running a year ago.


You mean planned, not hyped. I've been a DirecTV customer since long before HD was even thought of coming from DirecTV, and I've never experienced any of this "hype" that you speak of. Perhaps you got wind of DirecTV's plans and hyped it up in your own mind and then got disappointed when the plans changed.


----------



## Jon J

When installing a new HR21 for me yesterday, the tech said the new satellite is "pinging" rather than sending a video signal when a fault showed up on one of the diagnostic screens. Wonder where he came up with that?


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> A year ago? No, that was D10. Did you miss the big to-do last fall when we got all that great HD? :lol:


Here's some of the aforementioned hype for those who weren't paying attention:


DIRECTV "Dramatic Expansion" press release said:


> The next two satellites, DIRECTV 10 and DIRECTV 11, will launch in early 2007.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Here's some of the aforementioned hype for those who weren't paying attention:


Yes, and then a satellite blew up (yes, exploded!) on the launchpad. As you can expect, that caused some plans to change.


----------



## Sirshagg

Absolutely shocking that an explosion on the launch pad delayed this a bit.


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> Absolutely shocking that an explosion on the launch pad delayed this a bit.


Yep ...









http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/31/sea-launch-explosion-may-delay-directvs-100-hd-channels/


----------



## Sixto

And now back to awaiting the completion of BSS testing ...


----------



## DarinC

I'm going to stop by the grocery store on the way home. Is my trip to Kroger now "heavily hyped"?


----------



## mhayes70

DarinC said:


> I'm going to stop by the grocery store on the way home. Is my trip to Kroger now "heavily hyped"?


:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> Sirshagg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it realistically possible to ge the sat in the right position in this timeframe?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Takes 1-3 days to get to 99.225. D10 showed signal same day. D10 was to go "live" within a week but had unrelated authorization issue which pushed things back a week. 7-10 days from arrival is technically doable.
> 
> Totally depends on what testing/setup is still required.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct. If we see movement by the 20th, we still could make the "end of month". (And here's hoping we see movement much sooner than that...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> Here's some of the aforementioned hype for those who weren't paying attention:


The lack of a link, date, and more complete context for your quoted supposed "hype" doesn't serve to make your point very well, but regardless, as I said earlier, you need to accept the fact that the original announced schedule for upgrading DirecTV's HD infrastructure changed. Due to many factors including some outside of DirecTV's control such as the Sea Launch failure, DirecTV's originally announced plans were changed and/or delayed.

Evidently to you, that means that DirecTV didn't live up to their "hype".... get over it.


----------



## harsh

cartrivision said:


> You mean planned, not hyped.


I mean hyped. DIRECTV saw to it back in September 2004 that this "Dramatic Expansion" was national news. The news appeared in fish wrappers and on the evening television news everywhere. Mitch Stern, then president and CEO of DirecTV Inc. (not to be confused with The DIRECTV Group, Inc. headed by Chase Carey) proclaimed "Today's announcement is one of the most significant in the history of DIRECTV."

Other terms scattered throughout the press release: massive, next generation, historic, largest, most powerful, state-of-the-art,

Lots of superlatives = hype. Hype is pretty easy to execute. Plans... not so much.

The funniest part of this was the reference to a "single small dish".

The expansion plan was, in almost all ways, a good thing.

Making people aware that DIRECTV was making bold moves was a good thing.

When the plans are substantially realized, it will be a good thing.


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/31/sea-launch-explosion-may-delay-directvs-100-hd-channels/


I'll bet that DirecTV knew that that was going to happen when they "hyped" their satellite launch plans, but knowing of the future launch failure, they figured that they would have a good excuse for not living up to their "hype".

!rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> I mean hyped. DIRECTV saw to it back in September 2004 that this "Dramatic Expansion" was national news. The news appeared in fish wrappers and on the evening television news everywhere. Mitch Stern, then president and CEO of DirecTV Inc. (not to be confused with The DIRECTV Group, Inc. headed by Chase Carey) proclaimed "Today's announcement is one of the most significant in the history of DIRECTV."
> 
> Other terms scattered throughout the press release: massive, next generation, historic, largest, most powerful, state-of-the-art,
> 
> Lots of superlatives = hype. Hype is pretty easy to execute. Plans... not so much.
> 
> The funniest part of this was the reference to a "single small dish".
> 
> The expansion plan was, in almost all ways, a good thing.
> 
> Making people aware that DIRECTV was making bold moves was a good thing.
> 
> When the plans are substantially realized, it will be a good thing.


Now here's some good hype that won't be realized for a long, long time.


> AMC-14 is an advanced, high-powered Ku-band BSS satellite, designed for multiple missions to operate across the orbital arc from 61 to 119 degrees West. As the third satellite dedicated to AMERICOM2Home, the spacecraft has been optimized to provide Direct-to-Home video services. After the launch, SES AMERICOM will complete the testing of all spacecraft systems and ready the satellite for continental U.S. service from 61.5 degrees West by EchoStar Corporation (EchoStar).
> 
> The AMC-14 satellite provides 8.2 kilowatts of power to the communications payload, which consists of thirty-two 24 MHz Ku-band transponders. In addition, the spacecraft carries a demonstration phased array antenna that enables coverage shaping while the satellite is in orbit. The mission is not dependent upon the experimental array; nonetheless, it gives both AMERICOM and EchoStar an opportunity to test this next generation technology. The designated mission of AMC-14 is to expand the bandwidth resources needed to increase the number of high definition and other services offered by EchoStar nationwide.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> I mean hyped. DIRECTV saw to it back in September 2004 that this "Dramatic Expansion" was national news. The news appeared in fish wrappers and on the evening television news everywhere. Mitch Stern, then president and CEO of DirecTV Inc. (not to be confused with The DIRECTV Group, Inc. headed by Chase Carey) proclaimed "Today's announcement is one of the most significant in the history of DIRECTV."
> 
> Other terms scattered throughout the press release: massive, next generation, historic, largest, most powerful, state-of-the-art,
> 
> Lots of superlatives = hype. Hype is pretty easy to execute. Plans... not so much.
> 
> The funniest part of this was the reference to a "single small dish".
> 
> The expansion plan was, in almost all ways, a good thing.
> 
> Making people aware that DIRECTV was making bold moves was a good thing.
> 
> When the plans are substantially realized, it will be a good thing.


Er, did you forget the part where there was very little content to fill two satellites in early 2007, or the fact that absent the Sea-Launch issue they're only 3 - 6 months behind plans made 4 years ago? Plans involving literally billions of dollars in infrastructure investment?

Geez, I've said it before and say it again: stop trolling this thread. Give it a rest.


----------



## MikeR7

LameLefty said:


> Er, did you forget the part where there was very little content to fill two satellites in early 2007, or the fact that absent the Sea-Launch issue they're only 3 - 6 months behind plans made 4 years ago? Plans involving literally billions of dollars in infrastructure investment?
> 
> Geez, I've said it before and say it again: stop trolling this thread. Give it a rest.


There is a "HARSH" type of person in every crowd, and on every message board I've ever frequented. They thrive off the fact that you(and others here) respond to him in this fashion.

It would be better to ignore him(or put him on ignore) than to continue to berate him for posting as it only feeds his ego more.

If the mods allow his posts to stand, then the best thing is to pay him no mind. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Thanks Sixto, good catch sir, I look forward to the testing ending SOON and we get more HD SOON!


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> I mean hyped. DIRECTV saw to it back in September 2004 that this "Dramatic Expansion" was national news. The news appeared in fish wrappers and on the evening television news everywhere.


National news? Evening television news? I've never seen anything on national news about future plans television service providers. But what ever. DirecTV "saw to it"? You are suggesting that they control the media? They issue press releases. It's there on their web site for anyone to read. If any news agent wants to report it, that's up to them. But if you think they have so much control that they can ensure their releases get broad coverage in general media, you are mistaken. I've NEVER seen their releases outside of specific interest forums, like this one.



> Other terms scattered throughout the press release: massive, next generation, historic, largest, most powerful, state-of-the-art,


Do you disagree with any of that? Over the past three years, they have launched four new satellites with technology and capacity that dwarfs what had been done in the past by satellite television providers. In the context of the industry, I don't see any of that as exaggeration. If you were to have stepped back to just a couple of years prior to this press release, and suggested that DirecTV (or Dish) would have the capability to have all the local and national HD channels they have, in the timeframe they have provided them in, no one would have believed you. It wasn't that long ago that it was believed that satellite would not be able to compete in the HD world, as it was believed that the bandwidth required would not be practically attainable. If you think hard about the discussions that went on in the community in the late 90s and early 00s, it's pretty amazing how much things have changed.



> When the plans are substantially realized, it will be a good thing.


Didn't that already happen? Despite the fact that D11 isn't yet online, DirecTV has _already_ surpassed the other providers, even cable. There is not a LOT of worthwhile HD programming that is available that they aren't providing, right now. I'm having a really hard time understanding what your issue is. And why the majority of your posts are complaining about DirecTV, when you aren't even a customer. :scratch:


----------



## dbmaven

MikeR7 said:


> There is a "HARSH" type of person in every crowd, and on every message board I've ever frequented. They thrive off the fact that you(and others here) respond to him in this fashion.
> 
> It would be better to ignore him(or put him on ignore) than to continue to berate him for posting as it only feeds his ego more.
> 
> If the mods allow his posts to stand, then the best thing is to pay him no mind. :lol:


 :righton: Thus speaks the truth. :righton:


----------



## Ed Campbell

MikeR7 said:


> There is a "HARSH" type of person in every crowd, and on every message board I've ever frequented. They thrive off the fact that you(and others here) respond to him in this fashion.
> 
> It would be better to ignore him(or put him on ignore) than to continue to berate him for posting as it only feeds his ego more.
> 
> If the mods allow his posts to stand, then the best thing is to pay him no mind. :lol:


Thanks for reminding me of "ignore". It's literally been years since I've thought of using that forum feature. I guess that means there haven't been as many trolls as back in the day.

ENGAGE!


----------



## LameLefty

Ed Campbell said:


> Thanks for reminding me of "ignore". It's literally been years since I've thought of using that forum feature. I guess that means there haven't been as many trolls as back in the day.
> 
> ENGAGE!


Back in my Usenet days, we'd use <PLONK!> on the space newsgroups. So I am going to HARSHly plonk someone . . .

<PLONK!>

Ah, that felt good.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

OK, let's quit beating the dead horse that's beating the dead horse.

Dead horses beating dead horses. Yep, better get Chiller HD up there.


----------



## dbmaven

Ed Campbell said:


> Thanks for reminding me of "ignore". It's literally been years since I've thought of using that forum feature. I guess that means there haven't been as many trolls as back in the day.
> 
> ENGAGE!


Indeed - the only downside is that any posts by others that contain quotes from an ignored user still show up.

The best way to deal with them is "manual ignore", aka "self-control". More difficult than any automated tool, certainly - but actually more fulfilling.....


----------



## HelenWeathers

n2yo.com is showing D11 at 100.73 currently. I know that's drifting in the wrong direction..... but it's the most off station the sat has been in a while now.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> I mean hyped. DIRECTV saw to it back in September 2004 that this "Dramatic Expansion" was national news. The news appeared in fish wrappers and on the evening television news everywhere.


Harsh, if you want to have any credibility, you are going to have to stop making laughable claims, like expecting us to believe that DirecTV's announced timetable for it's future HD satellite appeared "on the evening television news everywhere".

Even ignoring your imaginative claims about television coverage of DirecTV's plans, I doubt that more than a few newspapers even ran a story based on DirecTV's press release. This may come as a surprise to you, but the general population doesn't consider the planned launch dates of satellites that telecommunications companies have coming up to be newsworthy, and very few news outlets other than specialty tech news outlets would even consider running a story based on DirecTV's press release about their future satellite plans.


----------



## Brandon428

I hate to ask a question that's probably been asked 1,000 times in this thread but when is D11 expected to go live?


----------



## cartrivision

Brandon428 said:


> I hate to ask a question that's probably been asked 1,000 times in this thread but when is D11 expected to go live?


Before the end of July.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

cartrivision said:


> Before the end of July.


...and my check's in the mail...


----------



## Sixto

HelenWeathers said:


> n2yo.com is showing D11 at 100.73 currently. I know that's drifting in the wrong direction..... but it's the most off station the sat has been in a while now.


It's been drifting slightly for the past couple of TLE's.

Post#2 has the details.

BTW, n2yo is not real-time.


----------



## RobertE

LameLefty said:


> Back in my Usenet days, we'd use <PLONK!> on the space newsgroups. So I am going to HARSHly plonk someone . . .
> 
> <PLONK!>
> 
> Ah, that felt good.


Now thats a trip down memory lane.


----------



## P Smith

Brandon428 said:


> I hate to ask a question that's probably been asked 1,000 times in this thread but when is D11 expected to go live?


It is alive now.


----------



## Brandon428

P Smith said:


> It is alive now.


Are you being sarcastic,or what your saying is D11 is already broadcasting signals?


----------



## Sixto

Brandon428 said:


> Are you being sarcastic,or what your saying is D11 is already broadcasting signals?


See post#2


----------



## Brandon428

Sixto said:


> See post#2


Thanks.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> It's been drifting slightly for the past couple of TLE's.
> 
> Post#2 has the details.
> 
> BTW, n2yo is not real-time.


But it is drifting the wrong way....


----------



## Sixto

DodgerKing said:


> But it is drifting the wrong way....


Yep, wasn't implying a drift to 99.225, just confirming that the drift was more then just today.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Seems very unlikely to transition to MPEG4 on the existing non-D11 satellites. Possible, but very unlikely.


Why? If the channel is going to go MPEG4 only, it seems entirely reasonable to do it in place.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> Why? If the channel is going to go MPEG4 only, it seems entirely reasonable to do it in place.


While technically possible, just seems "unlikely" based on DirecTV's previous practices.

Also, thought I read somewhere along the way, that MPEG4 needed to be on a transponder by transponder basis. Think I saw that somewhere.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> Why? If the channel is going to go MPEG4 only, it seems entirely reasonable to do it in place.


Because it's more customer friendly and less risky to get the MPEG4 version up and running concurrently with the existing MPEG2 version. Plus, that gives them more time to gently encourage their MPEG2-only customers to upgrade their equipment to avoid losing the channel, while still giving the majority of their customers the benefits of MPEG4 before all those MPEG2 customers are upgraded.

It's the best of both worlds. That's a luxury that DirecTV can afford to provide to their customers with the abundance of bandwidth that they will have with D11 online.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> Why? If the channel is going to go MPEG4 only, it seems entirely reasonable to do it in place.


There's no advantage to doing that, and a couple disadvantages... Keeping them in place means either adding redundant MPEG4 streams, to 110/119, or replacing the existing MPEG2 streams with MPEG4 streams. There's no way they could replace the MPEG2 streams by the end of the month... they can't possibly be done upgrading all MPEG2 HD customers to MPEG4 hardware by then, and they wouldn't just shut them down without more time to do that. There are technical limitations to adding the MPEG4 streams redundantly to their current locations, including lack of space.

So if they can't put the MPEG4 streams on the existing satellites, the only other logical answer are: they are putting them on an existing Ka satellite (D10), or D11 will be ready by the end of the month. If there is space on D10, why wait 'till now? There's really no answer that makes sense, other than they expect that D11 to be ready by the end of the month. We know it's certainly possible, but we should know pretty soon.


----------



## smiddy

It is starting to get very exciting around here. The next move is DirecTV's to make. Let's see what happens.


----------



## merchione

smiddy said:


> It is starting to get very exciting around here. The next move is DirecTV's to make. Let's see what happens.


WE WANT THE GOODNESS!:stickman: WE WANT THE GOODNESS!:stickman: WE WANT THE GOODNESS!:stickman:


----------



## rey_1178

are we currently pointing to this new sat when it goes online or do we have to readjust our dish?


----------



## gpg

rey_1178 said:


> are we currently pointing to this new sat when it goes online or do we have to readjust our dish?


A 5-lnb dish should already be aimed correctly.


----------



## rey_1178

thank you


----------



## Sixto

rey_1178 said:


> thank you


If you get good readings with 101 and 103(c)-D10 then 99(c)-D11 should be fine.


----------



## tyjudd

But what new channels are coming???


----------



## Sixto

tyjudd said:


> But what new channels are coming???


Post#2 has possible plans for D11 ...


----------



## tyjudd

thanks!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I believe this is the part of the story where King Julien utters "How long is this going to take?".  

OK...we're inside of 60 days one way or the other before someone sees some new channels someplace...so we should all just "Smile and Wave" at D11 until the actual live date.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> While technically possible, just seems "unlikely" based on DirecTV's previous practices.


At some point, they're going to have to "cut the cord". This coddling of MPEG2 HD customers is costing them. The offers to come over to the MPEG4 side are out there and about as compelling as they are going to get.

As D11 is about 940Km away (and drifting further), it seems like there must be some other methodology in play to allow satelliteracer's claims come to pass.

It appears to have taken 35.8 days (day 75.0 to day 110.8) to square up at 100.70W from 99.40W (1.3 degrees traveled) so it doesn't seem likely that the longer return trip from 100.73+W to 99.225W (1.505+ degrees to go) will happen in three weeks.

Options:

1. Use set-aside space on D10 (assuming any exists)
2. Convert at least one transponder worth of MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 in situ
3. Run the throttle to the firewall and hope not to overshoot


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> At some point, they're going to have to "cut the cord". This coddling of MPEG2 HD customers is costing them. The offers to come over to the MPEG4 side are out there and about as compelling as they are going to get.


How is it costing them? Right now they still lead the compition on the number of HD channels being carried. And if D11 does go active before 8/1 they have a good chance to continue to be the leader. By not doing a blanked upgrade they continue to let folks on their own which helps reduce their costs. I haven't seen a flood of post for folks saying they're going to E* for their lineup, if they've going it's because they want the HD Only package to reduce their costs.


----------



## mbuser

harsh said:


> It appears to have taken 35.8 days (day 75.0 to day 110.8) to square up at 100.70W from 99.40W (1.3 degrees traveled) so it doesn't seem likely that the longer return trip from 100.73+W to 99.225W (1.505+ degrees to go) will happen in three weeks.


The trip to 100.7 took less than three days.


----------



## Sixto

harsh said:


> At some point, they're going to have to "cut the cord". This coddling of MPEG2 HD customers is costing them.


1. It appears that the plan has been all along to transition the 9 legacy MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 when D11 is "live". They needed bandwidth for all 9 channels in both MPEG2 and MPEG4 during some transition period. The most likely scenario was to wait for D11, which was delayed due to the SeaLaunch explosion.

2) It takes just a few days to move a couple of degrees. D10 took 2-3 days to move from test to final, and D11 took 2-3 days to move from 99.4 to 100.7. As mentioned previously, that one TLE with 34,787 x 34,787 may have just been a TLE inconsistency because that was the only TLE with a different perigee/apogee over 20+ TLE period. D11 got to 100.7 very quickly, and based on D10, it should get to 99.225 rather quickly.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> 2) It takes just a few days to move a couple of degrees. D10 took 2-3 days to move from test to final, and D11 took 2-3 days to move from 99.4 to 100.7. As mentioned previously, that one TLE with 34,787 x 34,787 may have just been a TLE inconsistency because that was the only TLE with a different perigee/apogee over 20+ TLE period. D11 got to 100.7 very quickly, and based on D10, it should get to 99.225 rather quickly.


I was counting from square to square as opposed to slot to slot. Shouldn't he wiggling around to get to apogee=perigee should be considered? The TLEs are projections after all.


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> How is it costing them? Right now they still lead the compition on the number of HD channels being carried.


It isn't about the competition. It is about offering their customers what they've been clamoring for.

Will they lose customers? Probably not. Will they lose some momentum in their HD Leader campaign? Probably.

Of course the customers have been clamoring for lots of HD channels that don't exist, but to not carry ones that do costs you something in terms of Blue Sky. It doesn't much matter how many NFL, NHL and NBA channels they carry right now.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> At some point, they're going to have to "cut the cord". This coddling of MPEG2 HD customers is costing them. The offers to come over to the MPEG4 side are out there and about as compelling as they are going to get.


That day is coming. But they didn't start actively contacting customers to make the switch until a couple months ago (that's when I started getting letters and calls), but even then, they haven't been "Upgrade by x/x/xx or you will no longer get HD". They wouldn't try to cram all those upgrades into a couple of months. There is absolutely no need for them to do so. Putting the EXISTING MPEG2 HD on 99/103 isn't even a significant benefit to them until they have the smaller 99/101/103 dish available.



> Options:
> 
> 1. Use set-aside space on D10 (assuming any exists)
> 2. Convert at least one transponder worth of MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 in situ
> 3. Run the throttle to the firewall and hope not to overshoot


4. Leave things as they are at least until D11 is ready.

What benefits are there to options 1-3?

Personally, *I* am very anxious for them to move the existing MPEG2 to 103/99, because I just recently upgraded to Ka capability, and I lost 110/119 because my tree situation requires a two-dish setup. I COULD have gotten the proper components to integrate my existing 110/119 dish with the new 99/101/103 dish, but once I learned they were moving to the new sats in a few months, I decided it wasn't worth the effort to get those handful of channels for such a short time period. But my situation is going to an extremely rare case. Most can probably see all the sats. Most of those that can't probably already did what they had to do for a multi-dish install. I just happened to switch during a small window where the upcoming move was known about, but hasn't yet happened.

There are benefits to moving all the HD to the new sats... they can use a smaller dish for most new installs; they can move some internationals and locals off of leased space over to 110/119, and they can become a more viable option to customers who can't see 110/119. But none of that is so important that it can't wait a couple months.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> It isn't about the competition. It is about offering their customers what they've been clamoring for.
> 
> Will they lose customers? Probably not. Will they lose some momentum in their HD Leader campaign? Probably.
> 
> Of course the customers have been clamoring for lots of HD channels that don't exist, but to not carry ones that do costs you something in terms of Blue Sky. It doesn't much matter how many NFL, NHL and NBA channels they carry right now.


If we're only taking about days or a couple weeks, if at all, IMHO I don't see them loosing any momentum. Not to the point that they need to spend millions to do a swap to buy them that time.

Especially when you compare them against their compition in the DBS field which was behind for months and then had to pull existing channels in order to add new ones.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> Of course the customers have been clamoring for lots of HD channels that don't exist, but to not carry ones that do costs you something in terms of Blue Sky. It doesn't much matter how many NFL, NHL and NBA channels they carry right now.


You are applying a Dish paradigm to DirecTV. When have you ever seen DirecTV jumble things around in desperation to keep a marginal lead for a very short time? They have had a long term plan that has been unveiling over the past several years. You think all of a sudden they are going to be flailing around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to make last minute changes to their plan just because Dish is going to overcompress some channels to have a lead for a few weeks? (assuming you actually believe the ARE going to have a lead for a few weeks) Dish had all the Voom channels for a couple years while DirecTV calmly moved towards THEIR goal. You think at the last minute they're going to have a menopause attack?


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> 4. Leave things as they are at least until D11 is ready.
> 
> What benefits are there to options 1-3?


The benefits to the first two options is that they may be able to comfortably make all of this happen in the time frame claimed by satelliteracer.

I'm offering ideas on how the claim can be fulfilled quickly, not necessarily the best way.


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> If we're only taking about days or a couple weeks, if at all, IMHO I don't see them loosing any momentum.


It has been a rather long dry spell since any new national HD programming has been added. Satisfaction decays exponentially with time.


----------



## tcusta00

harsh said:


> It has been a rather long dry spell since any new national HD programming has been added. Satisfaction decays exponentially with time.


How is this relevant to the conversation? Shoo, fly.


----------



## DodgerKing

DarinC said:


> You are applying a Dish paradigm to DirecTV. When have you ever seen DirecTV jumble things around in desperation to keep a marginal lead for a very short time? They have had a long term plan that has been unveiling over the past several years. You think all of a sudden they are going to be flailing around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to make last minute changes to their plan just because Dish is going to overcompress some channels to have a lead for a few weeks? (assuming you actually believe the ARE going to have a lead for a few weeks) Dish had all the Voom channels for a couple years while DirecTV calmly moved towards THEIR goal. You think at the last minute they're going to have a menopause attack?


Something else to add. If Dish does take the HD lead in channel count at the beginning of August and advertise that they have more HD than any other provider, all Direct has to do is use an advertising scheme of their own. There is no need for Direct to panic. No matter how they count the channels, if both providers used the SAME counting criteria, Direct will still be in the lead as far as the number of HD channels.

I can see their advertising statement looking something like this:

"_Dish may claim to have more HD channels than us, but they are falsely leading the public by using inaccurate and misleading counting methods. Dish includes part time game only RSNs as part of their total, while we at Direct do not. These particular RSNs are, for the most part, only available to the subs within the RSN's regional market. If we at Direct counted our channels the same way Dish is doing to include these same channels, our HD channel count would be well over 100. Don't let Dish fool you with there distortions. Direct is the true HD leader, no matter how you choose to count._" - made up Direct advertising quote


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> When have you ever seen DirecTV jumble things around in desperation to keep a marginal lead for a very short time?


Certainly DIRECTV doesn't have to go out of their way to meet the promises of satelliteracer. I'm just applying what I think I understand to figure out how they might meet that milestone on the schedule that satelliteracer offered.

The discussion shouldn't involve DISH Network other than in an illustration of availability of desired national HD channels that are not carried by DIRECTV. Humans are funny about wanting some of that greener grass.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> The benefits to the first two options is that they may be able to comfortably make all of this happen in the time frame claimed by satelliteracer.


Regardless of how reliable he (or she) may be, it is a rumor unless and until it is either confirmed by DirecTV, or it happens. You have come up with scenarios that COULD make the rumor technically _possible_, but they aren't _likely_ scenarios. We are saying the most _likely_ scenario that can make the rumor true is that D11 will be available in that timeframe. I would bet money that either: D11 will be live by the end of the month, OR the rumor does not materialize.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> It has been a rather long dry spell since any new national HD programming has been added. Satisfaction decays exponentially with time.


Three months and four days, since ESPN News, Disney and Toon Disney, guess my definition of a long dry spell and yours differ a bit.


----------



## DarinC

RAD said:


> Three months and four days, since ESPN News, Disney and Toon Disney, guess my definition of a long dry spell and yours differ a bit.


In my single years I had sexual dry spells that lasted longer than that. No _new_ HD in three months? Phhhhhh!


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> D11 will be live by the end of the month, OR the rumor does not materialize.


You should have put a smiley after that.

Quite a few seem to have hung their hats on D11 being up and running (either by 8/1/08 or 8/8/08) based on satelliteracer's statement. I've investigated several ways it could be done and I'm not at all convinced that it can at this point.


----------



## tcusta00

harsh said:


> You should have put a smiley after that.
> 
> Quite a few seem to have hung their hats on D11 being up and running (either by 8/1/08 or 8/8/08) based on satelliteracer's statement. I've investigated several ways it could be done and I'm not at all convinced that it can at this point.


You've made your prognostication. Thanks for your input, now why don't you mosey on back to the Dish side and revel in the HD goodness you have instead of making waves over here.


----------



## Sixto

DarinC said:


> I would bet money that either: D11 will be live by the end of the month, OR the rumor does not materialize.


I agree.


----------



## curt8403

I would much rather have a slightly longer wait, and give Directv the chance to get everything right, than to rush things and then have something go wrong. We have nearly a 100 channels now. It is not like we have nothing to watch right now. New channels will come, and they will be good. Exercise patience.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> You should have put a smiley after that.


I'm completely serious. I'm not saying to hang your hat on D11 being live by the end of the month. I'm simply saying that if it's NOT live by the end of the month, I don't believe rumor that the MPEG2 channels will be available in MPEG4 by the end of the month will materialize.

I'd say: there's a 50% chance that D11 will be live by the end of the month, a 49% chance that the rumor doesn't materialize, and a 1% chance that the MPEG2 channels go to MPEG4 before D11 lights up.


----------



## Sixto

DarinC said:


> I'm completely serious. I'm not saying to hang your hat on D11 being live by the end of the month. I'm simply saying that if it's NOT live by the end of the month, I don't believe rumor that the MPEG2 channels will be available in MPEG4 by the end of the month will materialize.
> 
> I'd say: there's a 50% chance that D11 will be live by the end of the month, a 45% chance that the rumor doesn't materialize, and a 5% chance that the MPEG2 channels go to MPEG4 before D11 lights up.


You have my money on your side of the table ... 

I might even go 60/35/5 based on satelliteracer's track record ...


----------



## DarinC

You will see I put more thought into it, and revised my numbers while you were posting.  Honestly, I wouldn't have guessed that it'd be up by the end of the month. But apparently satelliteracer has a good rep, so I'm trusting that and giving it a decent (50%) chance.


----------



## LarryFlowers

I wish the moderators would close this thread and let it lay until D11 goes live. It has become useless speculation and a place for people with no valid information to stir the pot.

DirecTV will activate it when they are ready to and not before. Dish Networks recent move is irrelevant to the case. Congratulations to their clients on getting some much needed expansion in their HD capability. WHEN DirecTV activates D11 and begins adding channels we can all sit back and gloat about how we are once again the HD leader.


----------



## Sixto

LarryFlowers said:


> I wish the moderators would close this thread and let it lay until D11 goes live. It has become useless speculation and a place for people with no valid information to stir the pot.
> 
> DirecTV will activate it when they are ready to and not before. Dish Networks recent move is irrelevant to the case. Congratulations to their clients on getting some much needed expansion in their HD capability. WHEN DirecTV activates D11 and begins adding channels we can all sit back and gloat about how we are once again the HD leader.


Expect news within days (hopefully) ...


----------



## Sixto

He (Satelliteracer) continues to be aggressive ...

Minutes ago: "Stay tuned...happening soon".

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1677203&postcount=2


----------



## DarinC

LarryFlowers said:


> I wish the moderators would close this thread and let it lay until D11 goes live. It has become useless speculation and a place for people with no valid information to stir the pot.


If you don't enjoy the fun, you can always just bookmark Post #2. It's pretty much all the pertinent info of the thread with the nonsense taken out.


----------



## bobnielsen

DodgerKing said:


> Something else to add. If Dish does take the HD lead in channel count at the beginning of August and advertise that they have more HD than any other provider, all Direct has to do is use an advertising scheme of their own. There is no need for Direct to panic. No matter how they count the channels, if both providers used the SAME counting criteria, Direct will still be in the lead as far as the number of HD channels.
> 
> I can see their advertising statement looking something like this:
> 
> "_Dish may claim to have more HD channels than us, but they are falsely leading the public by using inaccurate and misleading counting methods. Dish includes part time game only RSNs as part of their total, while we at Direct do not. These particular RSNs are, for the most part, only available to the subs within the RSN's regional market. If we at Direct counted our channels the same way Dish is doing to include these same channels, our HD channel count would be well over 100. Don't let Dish fool you with there distortions. Direct is the true HD leader, no matter how you choose to count._" - made up Direct advertising quote


Several of the Directv HD RSNs (the -1 channels) are still part-time, game-only, so that argument won't work.

Edit: They are not counted in the 95, so nevermind


----------



## Sixto

bobnielsen said:


> Several of the Directv HD RSNs (the -1 channels) are still part-time, game-only, so that argument won't work.


The part time HD RSN's are not in the 95.

Official 95: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## DodgerKing

bobnielsen said:


> Several of the Directv HD RSNs (the -1 channels) are still part-time, game-only, so that argument won't work.


Yes it does because Direct does not count those as part of their total.


----------



## Paul A

DodgerKing said:


> Something else to add. If Dish does take the HD lead in channel count at the beginning of August and advertise that they have more HD than any other provider, all Direct has to do is use an advertising scheme of their own. There is no need for Direct to panic. No matter how they count the channels, if both providers used the SAME counting criteria, Direct will still be in the lead as far as the number of HD channels.
> 
> I can see their advertising statement looking something like this:
> 
> "_Dish may claim to have more HD channels than us, but they are falsely leading the public by using inaccurate and misleading counting methods. Dish includes part time game only RSNs as part of their total, while we at Direct do not. These particular RSNs are, for the most part, only available to the subs within the RSN's regional market. If we at Direct counted our channels the same way Dish is doing to include these same channels, our HD channel count would be well over 100. Don't let Dish fool you with there distortions. Direct is the true HD leader, no matter how you choose to count._" - made up Direct advertising quote


How would excess compression that degrades picture quality fly with the marketing efforts, if indeed that is what e* is doing.

It's one thing to have quantity, it's a whole other thing to have quality.

I'm glad we are getting both!


----------



## DodgerKing

Paul A said:


> How would excess compression that degrades picture quality fly with the marketing efforts, if indeed that is what e* is doing.
> 
> It's one thing to have quantity, it's a whole other thing to have quality.
> 
> I'm glad we are getting both!


This was jut one possible marking tool, made up by me, that Direct may use if they feel they need to (which I do not think they do) just to counter the temporary claim by Dish that Dish is the HD leader.

They can use the PQ and compression issue as well, but I think that will just fly over the head of most potential subs.


----------



## cartrivision

DarinC said:


> If you don't enjoy the fun, you can always just bookmark Post #2. It's pretty much all the pertinent info of the thread with the nonsense taken out.


I agree. No need to shut sown a thread just because an uninformed troll is hanging around. I think it's kind of fun watching him make a fool of himself, like when he claimed that DirecTV original launch plans for D10 and D11 were reported on the evening TV newscasts all across the country.

I really enjoyed his recent statement&#8230; "I've investigated several ways that [D11 could be operational by 8/1] and I'm not at all convinced that it can at this point."

LOL! I'd love to see what kind of research went into that "investigation", considering that one of the conclusions that came out his investigative work is that it would take about 30 days to move D11 from it's test slot to 99W. I guess his crack investigation team missed the fact that it took just a few days to move it from near 99W to it's test slot.

I say, let any ignorant trolls spout off with their made up "facts" and theories. It's fun to see what nonsense they will come up with next.


----------



## curt8403

we could always send a







after


----------



## QuickDrop

DodgerKing said:


> "_Dish may claim to have more HD channels than us, but they are falsely leading the public by using inaccurate and misleading counting methods. Dish includes part time game only RSNs as part of their total, while we at Direct do not. These particular RSNs are, for the most part, only available to the subs within the RSN's regional market. If we at Direct counted our channels the same way Dish is doing to include these same channels, our HD channel count would be well over 100. Don't let Dish fool you with there distortions. Direct is the true HD leader, no matter how you choose to count._" - made up Direct advertising quote


It would would be simpler than that. Just run an ad with "According to Dish Network's own math, DirecTV now has 115 HD channels." (Or how many part time FSN channels they're not counting.) Dish Network claiming over 100 channels would be a gift to DirecTV's marketing.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Sorry to come back to the reality of business; but, DirecTV is outselling DISH by a factor 3 or 4 or 5 over the last few quarters. There's no one with sound business sense investing in DISH as opposed to DirecTV - unless they're hoping for a bargain that falls out of the bottom of the market.

Millions of subscribers are voting with their dollar$.

Sometime in the next couple of weeks or months - it doesn't matter which - D11 will become an additional positive in that equation for DirecTV.


----------



## RAD

To continue the off topic posting, it will be interesting to see what numbers D* and E* post for the 2nd quarter to see of the thrend continues of if the economic slowdown has also caught up with D*.


----------



## cartrivision

QuickDrop said:


> It would be simpler than that. Just run an ad with "According to Dish Network's own math, DirecTV now has 115 HD channels." (Or how many part time FSN channels they're not counting.) Dish Network claiming over 100 channels would be a gift to DirecTV's marketing.


Exactly. What's with the nonsensical talk of DISH possibly taking over the title of "HD Leader" from DirecTV? Even if D11 doesn't go live before 8/1, DISH is still going to be trying to catch up with DirecTV.

Then there's the fact that DISH will be adding more HD channels on 8/1 not by expanding capacity with a new satellite but by squeezing them into what is believed to be an already full section of their broadcasting bandwidth. I fully expect to see complaints of over-compression and degraded picture quality on DISH's HD channels as soon as they try to squeeze more than a dozen new channels into their existing satellite broadcasting spectrum.


----------



## DarinC

Even if dish were to have more HD than DirecTV on 8-1, and even if D11 didn't go live until 9-1 (which I would consider to be a worst case outside of it blowing a head gasket on the way to 99), I just don't think DirecTV really cares if they have a lead for a month, regardless of how you count. It certainly wouldn't be worth investing in a marketing campaign over. In the grand scheme of things, Dish's bump in channel numbers isn't a big deal to DirecTV or their customers.


----------



## DodgerKing

QuickDrop said:


> It would would be simpler than that. Just run an ad with "According to Dish Network's own math, DirecTV now has 115 HD channels." (Or how many part time FSN channels they're not counting.) Dish Network claiming over 100 channels would be a gift to DirecTV's marketing.


I like it...simple and to the point.


----------



## Herdfan

DarinC said:


> But apparently satelliteracer has a good rep, so I'm trusting that and giving it a decent (50%) chance.


I would say that if he posted it, then it was correct at the time. Things can change, but he has been pretty much spot on.


----------



## Dave

Back On Topic Please!!!!!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Dave said:


> Back On Topic Please!!!!!!!


Amen.

DirecTV has more HD channels and will continue to do so over Dish, despite Dish's "creative bookkeeping" tactics to make it look like they have 100 channels when they really don't. If DirecTV counted channels the same way Dish does, Dish would still be behind. Dish also have all sorts of compression issues right now trying to duct-tape their offering. This is a DirecTV thread. Enough on all that already.

D11 is nearing the final off-location testing, and Sixto is doing a superb job of keeping us informed of movements and activities.

Let's just sit tight for a short time longer, and we'll see D11 shuffle over to 99 for its final testing and then activation.


----------



## cwdonahue

What's the latest TLE? Testing should have finished on Friday, so is D11 on the move to HOME?


----------



## FHSPSU67

See post #2 in this thread.


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson, I know it is uncouth, but can you ask DirecTV what the plans are for DirecTV 11, seeing as you have an inside contact with them? :grin:


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Tom Robertson, I know it is uncouth, but can you ask DirecTV what the plans are for DirecTV 11, seeing as you have an inside contact with them? :grin:


Very unlikely they'd let the tipper release any info obtained, especially with the E* 8/1 announce and D11 being so close ... Satelliteracer may be the best source at this point ... "Still a little bit of time.....I'd think in terms of weeks. (posted 7/12 5pm ET)" ...


----------



## Drew2k

Sixto said:


> Very unlikely they'd let the tipper release any info obtained, especially with the E* 8/1 announce and D11 being so close ... Satelliteracer may be the best source at this point ... "Still a little bit of time.....I'd think in terms of weeks. (posted 7/12 5pm ET)" ...


To put this in context, the response was about local HD expansion. To extend that, if local HDs are being introduced in "weeks", the nationals could be coming around the same time...


----------



## Sixto

Drew2k said:


> To put this in context, the response was about local HD expansion. To extend that, if local HDs are being introduced in "weeks", the nationals could be coming around the same time...


Yep, and the specific reference was to D11 and the UHD thread had "The MPEG4 versions of those will launch later this month".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Tom Robertson, I know it is uncouth, but can you ask DirecTV what the plans are for DirecTV 11, seeing as you have an inside contact with them? :grin:


Turning it on I suppose.... 

*(I get a bit silly when I've somehow just managed to figure out how to get my Slingbox working again with my new router...)*


----------



## Tom Robertson

smiddy said:


> Tom Robertson, I know it is uncouth, but can you ask DirecTV what the plans are for DirecTV 11, seeing as you have an inside contact with them? :grin:


The plans? Turn up D11 in it's home parking spot and bring lots of HD channels to good little boys and girls who are DIRECTV clients... leaving Dish to try yet another interesting version of advanced channel counting.

If you want details:
1) finish testing BSS
2) move D11
3) lite the fires
4) uplink
5) downlink
6) enable receivers



Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> The plans? Turn up D11 in it's home parking spot and bring lots of HD channels to good little boys and girls who are DIRECTV clients... leaving Dish to try yet another interesting version of advanced channel counting.
> 
> If you want details:
> 1) finish testing BSS
> 2) move D11
> 3) lite the fires
> 4) uplink
> 5) downlink
> 6) enable receivers
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


You forgot Step 7....Smiddy jumping up and down...


----------



## raw121

Sixto said:


> Yep, and the specific reference was to D11 and the UHD thread had "The MPEG4 versions of those will launch later this month".





Sixto said:


> "Still a little bit of time.....I'd think in terms of weeks. (posted 7/12 5pm ET)"


Not to get to picky, but the item you linked earlier is about HD Locals in this thread 
D11 and Local Expansion


----------



## Sixto

raw121 said:


> Not to get to picky, but the item you linked earlier is about HD Locals in this thread
> D11 and Local Expansion


D11 is D11. When they go "live", they go "live". We care about D11.


----------



## Dave

Are we going to see a big move for the next TLE. This is another 2 to 4 days without one so far. Maybe good things will happen as far as move this week for D11????


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You forgot Step 7....Smiddy jumping up and down...


Yep, I will have to take pictures when it occurs. 

Com'n big D11!


----------



## uncrules

Tom Robertson said:


> The plans? Turn up D11 in it's home parking spot and bring lots of HD channels to good little boys and girls who are DIRECTV clients... leaving Dish to try yet another interesting version of advanced channel counting.
> 
> If you want details:
> 1) finish testing BSS
> 2) move D11
> 3) lite the fires
> 4) uplink
> 5) downlink
> 6) enable receivers
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Didn't you forget to put the dates beside each line item?


----------



## doctor j

2 days since last tle.
MAYBE today will show "the move"????

doctor j


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yep, I will have to take pictures when it occurs.
> 
> Com'n big D11!


I just think of you when I think of D11...hopefully I don't just get green screen images on the new HD channels...


----------



## merchione

Do you think D* will offer new HD packages like E*did now with all the HD channels we will have?


----------



## timmac

Who put that in the muffin house?


----------



## xrobmn

timmac said:


> Who put that in the muffin house?


 huh?


----------



## rey_1178

merchione said:


> Do you think D* will offer new HD packages like E*did now with all the HD channels we will have?


I think once they get the premiums they want up there and some new national HD then yes i think they'll come up with some nice HD packages IMHO.


----------



## RAD

merchione said:


> Do you think D* will offer new HD packages like E*did now with all the HD channels we will have?


IMHO, nope D* won't do it. I think E* needed to come up with a package like that to help keep their subs with them for the time when D* was kicking their a** with HD channels.


----------



## gregjones

Dish has been trying to spin a weaker position since September. They are doing anything they can to get press attention to pull it away from DirecTV. I don't bring this up to bash Dish, but to point out the reason they made the package.

That package was a press-release. Not a lot of savings, not a lot of advantage. It could have easily read, "We take away a lot of channels offered only in SD and make you pay much more per channel to have this package."

Is there any advantage to DirecTV offering such a package?


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just think of you when I think of D11...hopefully I don't just get green screen images on the new HD channels...


You've got to...Move It, Move It! Yeah, green and sassy! I will be one happy ogre when DirecTV 11 shows signs of life on my systems, I'll tell you!


----------



## doctor j

Past midday of 3rd day since last TLE.
My anxiety level says the next TLE will show D-11 parked!

Doctor j


----------



## cartrivision

doctor j said:


> 2 days since last tle.
> MAYBE today will show "the move"????
> 
> doctor j


It's actually now almost 3 and a half days since the last TLE.

TLE #129 was timestamped 07-11-2008 10:11:30 UTC. The time now is 07-14-2008 19:04:00 UTC. The last TLE data is from very early last Friday morning (local time).


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> It's actually now almost 3 and a half days since the last TLE.
> 
> TLE #129 was timestamped 07-11-2008 10:11:30 UTC. The time now is 07-14-2008 19:04:00 UTC. The last TLE data is from very early last Friday morning (local time).


As of July 15, Echostar is launching a big dirty bird, which seems to be headed for 110W

I hope D11 goes live before the big dirty bird shows up


----------



## P Smith

SO much hate for Dish ...eh ? So typed "big dirty bird" two times.


----------



## Ken984

Newest TLE shows it still at 100.74, and fairly stationary.



Code:


1 32729U 08013A   08193.42466027 -.00000110 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01299
2 32729 000.0260 022.0712 0000669 168.2998 151.4679 01.00270747001250

1DIRECTV 11
Lon	100.7426° W
Lat	0.0521° N
Alt (km)	35 784.960
Azm	192.8°
Elv	51.6°
RA	08h 43m 33s
Decl	-5° 12' 36"
Range (km)	36 975.755
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	301.5° (214)
TA	301.5°
Orbit #	128
Mag (illum)	? (6%)
Constellation	Hya
2Sun
Azm	249.2°
Elv	65.8°
RA	07h 38m 09s
Decl	21° 31' 44"
Lon	118.1120° W
Lat	21.5254° N
Range (km)	152 060 495
Constellation	Gem
3Moon
Azm	103.5°
Elv	-33.4°
RA	16h 50m 47s
Decl	-27° 25' 45"
Lon	19.3763° E
Lat	27.1456° S
Range (km)	410 089
Illum	87%
Phase	Waxing gibbous
Constellation	Oph

Name	DIRECTV 11
NORAD #	32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2008-07-11 10:11:30
Orbit # at Epoch	125
Inclination	0.026
RA of A. Node	22.071
Eccentricity	0.0000669
Argument of Perigee	168.300
Revs per day	1.00270747
Period	23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 784 x 35 790 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	151.468
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0129 / 3 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Ed Campbell

P Smith said:


> SO much hate for Dish ...eh ? So typed "big dirty bird" two times.


More like bemused disdain.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> SO much hate for Dish ...eh ? So typed "big dirty bird" two times.


not for dish, for the satellite. Loral you know. So Big Dirty Bird refers to the satellite, not dish itself


----------



## Paul A

Ken984 said:


> Newest TLE shows it still at 100.74, and fairly stationary.


NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

We will return to our regulary scheduled wait momentarily...

in 3, 2, 1... wait

Are we there yet?


----------



## cashoe

The latest TLE looks timestamped 7/11, can't really be called recent, can it?

Name DIRECTV 11
NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
Epoch (UTC) 2008-07-11 10:11:30


----------



## DCappy

Ken984 said:


> Newest TLE shows it still at 100.74, and fairly stationary.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08193.42466027 -.00000110 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01299
> 2 32729 000.0260 022.0712 0000669 168.2998 151.4679 01.00270747001250
> 
> 1DIRECTV 11.........................
> 
> Name DIRECTV 11
> NORAD # 32729
> COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC) 2008-07-11 10:11:30
> Orbit # at Epoch 125............
> 
> This TLE is 3 and a half days old.:grin:


----------



## cartrivision

DCappy said:


> Ken984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newest TLE shows it still at 100.74, and fairly stationary.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08193.42466027 -.00000110 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01299
> 2 32729 000.0260 022.0712 0000669 168.2998 151.4679 01.00270747001250
> 
> 1DIRECTV 11.........................
> 
> Name DIRECTV 11
> NORAD # 32729
> COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC) 2008-07-11 10:11:30
> Orbit # at Epoch 125............
> 
> This TLE is 3 and a half days old.:grin:
> 
> 
> 
> And what's wierd its that it was about 1 day old by the time it showed up on space-track.org.
Click to expand...


----------



## harsh

doctor j said:


> Past midday of 3rd day since last TLE.
> My anxiety level says the next TLE will show D-11 parked!


TLEs are supposed to change with every change in orbit. My guess is that you'll see at least three more TLEs before D11 hits final orbit There need to be at least two: one for heading in the right direction and one for slipping it into place.


----------



## Ken984

That is the last one listed at SpaceTrack. When they do that generally there is another one fairly soon after with a much newer timestamp.


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> TLEs are supposed to change with every change in orbit. My guess is that you'll see at least three more TLEs before D11 hits final orbit There need to be at least two: one for heading in the right direction and one for slipping it into place.


I would think that after tomorrow you will be too busy with the new echostar to care about D11


----------



## Darkscream

At this rate the new E* Bird will be operational before D11.

129 Days since launch ! Glad to see there is no hurry or anything but this is getting a bit ridiculous now ! IMHO. 



curt8403 said:


> I would think that after tomorrow you will be too busy with the new echostar to care about D11


----------



## Tom Robertson

Darkscream said:


> At this rate the new E* Bird will be operational before D11.
> 
> 129 Days since launch ! Glad to see there is no hurry or anything but this is getting a bit ridiculous now ! IMHO.


Now that we know about the extra testing (for a very good and cool purpose) we can understand the delays those cause.

And this testing will benefit all the satellite players (including the FCC, Dish, DIRECTV, manufacturers, etc.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Darkscream

I agree and would have had no problem with E* doing months (and months) of testing with their new bird ( to benefit us all )- but methinks that it will be in position and operational quicker than you can say "Competitive Advantage" 

BTW as an aside and totally Off The Topic is this thread the biggest one in terms of posts that there has been at DBSTalk ? Just inquisitive is all.



Tom Robertson said:


> Now that we know about the extra testing (for a very good and cool purpose) we can understand the delays those cause.
> 
> And this testing will benefit all the satellite players (including the FCC, Dish, DIRECTV, manufacturers, etc.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## curt8403

Darkscream said:


> I agree and would have had no problem with E* doing months (and months) of testing with their new bird ( to benefit us all )- but methinks that it will be in position and operational quicker than you can say "Competitive Advantage"
> 
> BTW as an aside and totally Off The Topic is this thread the biggest one in terms of posts that there has been at DBSTalk ? Just inquisitive is all.


poster said he is not an echostar person so changed the comment


----------



## Darkscream

curt8403 said:


> Another Dish (Echostar) lurker (or Troll)


Neither (Not one) and thanks for the comment(Not really)

 (  )


----------



## curt8403

Darkscream said:


> Neither (Not one) and thanks for the comment(Not really)
> 
> (  )


ok. comment officially retracted.


----------



## Drew2k

Ken984 said:


> *Newest TLE* shows


Apropos of nothing: Reading this quickly made me hungry, because *Nestle* is oh so tasty ...


----------



## curt8403

Drew2k said:


> Apropos of nothing: Reading this quickly made me hungry, because *Nestle* is oh so tasty ...


reading too fast/


----------



## Paul A

Darkscream said:


> BTW as an aside and totally Off The Topic is this thread the biggest one in terms of posts that there has been at DBSTalk ? Just inquisitive is all.


This one was pretty big!!! Lot more pent up demand back then for the motherload of HD expansions

D10 Satellite - HD Anticipation and other posts ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... Last Page) 
lwilli201 09-21-07 02:42 PM
by Earl Bonovich
8,832 Posts
625,611 Views DIRECTV General Discussion


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> Newest TLE shows it still at 100.74, and fairly stationary ...


geez, you guys got me all excited ... was out all day ... then see a "new" TLE posted ... geez, it's the same one ... no TLE has been posted today ... same TLE as in post#2 from Friday ... oh well ...


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> geez, you guys got me all excited ... was out all day ... then see a "new" TLE posted ... geez, it's the same one ... no TLE has been posted today ... same TLE as in post#2 from Friday ... oh well ...


Well Sixto, you know that can only mean ONE thing...

OK, maybe two.

She's moving and they aint telling us. Tomorrow is the day... She's gonna be in parking mode and let's hope she parrallel parks better than my wife!

Anticipation = Nomeeeenal


----------



## K4SMX

cashoe said:


> The latest TLE looks timestamped 7/11, can't really be called recent, can it?
> 
> Name DIRECTV 11
> NORAD # 32729
> COSPAR designator 2008-013-A
> Epoch (UTC) 2008-07-11 10:11:30





Paul A said:


> Well Sixto, you know that can only mean ONE thing...
> 
> OK, maybe two.
> 
> She's moving and they aint telling us. Tomorrow is the day... She's gonna be in parking mode and let's hope she parrallel parks better than my wife!
> 
> Anticipation = Nomeeeenal


Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


----------



## l8er

K4SMX said:


> Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


 Only if you think the men in black are after you 24/7 and believe there's a conspiracy theory to explain everything that happens to everyone everywhere. 

(Sorry, fractured neck two weeks ago - doing fine but heavily medicated.)


----------



## purtman

K4SMX said:


> Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


I thought the same thing.


----------



## Sixto

K4SMX said:


> Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


This siutation is very similar to D10.

Hoepfully the same result.


----------



## doctor j

I believe several days of TLE's will appear together.
On paper looks like all was reported BUT she'll be at 99.225 and ready to go.
Now about 4 days since last TLE.
Isn't it ironic Sea Launch ready with new EchoStar bird for about midnight tonight!?

Doctor j


----------



## Paul A

K4SMX said:


> Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


It's true - 3.5 days no TLE, then blamo! Eagle PC spots the first transponder readiing


----------



## dmurphy

Paul A said:


> It's true - 3.5 days no TLE, then blamo! Eagle PC spots the first transponder readiing


You know, I never did get my $5 from EaglePC .... ;-)


----------



## MIAMI1683

Allright Sixto, 

Are we there yet?


----------



## Sirshagg

K4SMX said:


> Isn't it true that all TLE info mysteriously disappeared during the transfer from testing position to final position for D10?


I definitely remember the same thing.


----------



## merchione

Sirshagg said:


> I definitely remember the same thing.


how long was that? a week 3 days?


----------



## LameLefty

merchione said:


> how long was that? a week 3 days?


I remember it as well, but I don't think it was an entire week.


----------



## MIAMI1683

You guys aren't wrong. D10 just "popped" up in its final location. Then they posted a TLE. I remeber that. I also remember coming to check here and having to read 16 pages on it. Som Come on D11 let's go. We need to smoke Dish again!


----------



## katzeye

merchione said:


> how long was that? a week 3 days?


I seem to remember that it was about 4 to 5 days


----------



## jdphil99

Looking at the TLE's in post #2, it took approx. 4 days to move from 99.4 to 100.7, so is it reasonable to assume it would take about the same time back to 99.2?


----------



## Matt9876

My H20 unit only picks up 99(b) spot beam with six transponders.

Someone owes me an apology about not needing a software update to see 99(c).

If you can get 99(c) on the HRxx unit check for a hot transponder, I think D11 is about to go live.


----------



## tcusta00

Matt9876 said:


> My H20 unit only picks up 99(b) spot beam with six transponders.
> 
> Someone owes me an apology about not needing a software update to see 99(c).
> 
> If you can get 99(c) on the HRxx unit check for a hot transponder, I think D11 is about to go live.


Huh? What???? I'm getting goosebumps here. What info do you have??


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm just sitting on hold waiting for the "Sixto Report"...  

Then I crack open the champagne.


----------



## tcusta00

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm just sitting on hold waiting for the "Sixto Report"...
> 
> Then I crack open the champagne.


Good idea. 

and congrats to Sirshagg on 4k posts! Maybe we can all celebrate with some shiny new HD! :balloons:


----------



## MIAMI1683

tcusta00 said:


> Good idea.
> 
> and congrats to Sirshagg on 4k posts! Maybe we can all celebrate with some shiny new HD! :balloons:


 Well maybe with atleast new transponders. WOOHOO come on D11......


----------



## Sirshagg

Looks like we were in the dark for 3.5 - 4 days on D10. 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1104366&postcount=2181

Hoever if it is moving I suspect it may take longer this time as D11 is further away (no?) from it's planned spot.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm just sitting on hold waiting for the "Sixto Report"...
> 
> Then I crack open the champagne.


Nothing yet.

Still same TLE.

Nothing since 7/11 10am UTC.

If it is indeed moving, we may see a transponder signal before a TLE. With D10, we saw a transponder signal very shortly after the TLE.

This is exactly like D10 so far ... the only doubt is ... D10 has only 1 TLE update within past 5 days so neither D10 nor D11 are getting updates often.


----------



## curt8403

A little off topic, (sorry) but the new Echostar bird is sitting on the launch pad about ready to go. That means people like Harsh will be busy all day and probably will not be posting here in the Directv boards for a while. I hope that all goes well and it keeps the Dish people in their own yard for a while.


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Nothing yet.
> 
> Still same TLE.
> 
> Nothing since 7/11 10am UTC.
> 
> If it is indeed moving, we may see a transponder signal before a TLE. With D10, we saw a transponder signal very shortly after the TLE.
> 
> This is exactly like D10 so far ... the only doubt is ... D10 has only 1 TLE update within past 5 days so neither D10 nor D11 are getting updates often.


:scratch: :crying_sa :icon_cry: :bang


----------



## RAD

curt8403 said:


> A little off topic, (sorry) but the new Echostar bird is sitting on the launch pad about ready to go. That means people like Harsh will be busy all day and probably will not be posting here in the Directv boards for a while. I hope that all goes well and it keeps the Dish people in their own yard for a while.


Also hope the new bird goes up, the AMC mess was enough for the poor E* folks.

BTW, according to http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/142373-echo-ii-gone.html#post1446229 there MAY be an issue with Echostar II that happened yesterday, maybe Harsh can go help them fix that problem.


----------



## curt8403

RAD said:


> Also hope the new bird goes up, the AMC mess was enough for the poor E* folks.
> 
> BTW, according to http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/142373-echo-ii-gone.html#post1446229 there MAY be an issue with Echostar II that happened yesterday, maybe Harsh can go help them fix that problem.


Hmm I wonder, Is Harsh a space cowboy?


----------



## LameLefty

According to my sources, Echostar is having a Very Bad Day today.


----------



## Sirshagg

LameLefty said:


> According to my sources, Echostar is having a Very Bad Day today.


They tried cramming one too many HD channels per transponder and the sat threw a fit? :lol:


----------



## Steve615

I don't know,but how about this crew? 



curt8403 said:


> Hmm I wonder, Is Harsh a space cowboy?


----------



## MIAMI1683

LameLefty said:


> According to my sources, Echostar is having a Very Bad Day today.


 Is that Sat. used for HD. if so can they keep thier 100 count?


----------



## rey_1178

IF they have another problem with a launch that will be one more nail in the coffin.


----------



## curt8403

rey_1178 said:


> IF they have another problem with a launch that will be one more nail in the coffin.


one is lead to wonder if all the posts in this message board from Dish Lurkers / Trolls has caused a cosmic case of Bad Karma


----------



## Sirshagg

rey_1178 said:


> IF they have another problem with a launch that will be one more nail in the coffin.


I'm sure the marketing folks would find some way to spin it as a good thing.


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


> I'm sure the marketing folks would find some way to spin it as a good thing.


like:

Dish Network now has 3 nails in it's coffin, with only 15 more nails to go.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, lets keep Dish Network discussions in the Dish forums. Both sides have their supporters and detractors, btw.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom:

I agree - I'm interested in our sats...which is what this thread's all about.


----------



## smiddy

Has anyone seen the transponders pop up on their satellite setups yet? I'm thinking it will be this afternoon...and some test signals at 6:00 am EST tomorrow. 

Come on DirecTV 11, where's the love?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Isn't it about time for another Sixto update?? :lol:


----------



## MIAMI1683

AirRocker said:


> Isn't it about time for another Sixto update?? :lol:


 I can feel the excitment growing for us. Come on Sixto bring us home now.


----------



## smiddy

AirRocker said:


> Isn't it about time for another Sixto update?? :lol:


Yeah, where's that TLE Mr.? 

Seriously Sixto, you make it enjoyable to come here and check out the progress. Thanks for putting up with us punks!


----------



## I WANT MORE

smiddy said:


> Has anyone seen the transponders pop up on their satellite setups yet? I'm thinking it will be this afternoon...and some test signals at 6:00 am EST tomorrow.
> 
> Come on DirecTV 11, where's the love?


Only 99s on my HR20 700
9 0 37 0 0 0 NA NA


----------



## smiddy

Thanks for the update I WANT MORE! Unfortunately my Slingbox software can't be used here at work.  So I can not tell.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Thanks for the update I WANT MORE! Unfortunately my Slingbox software can't be used here at work.  So I can not tell.


I have a feeling we'll need another National version rollout to have the transponders appear....just a hunch...


----------



## Matt9876

I WANT MORE said:


> Only 99s on my HR20 700
> 9 0 37 0 0 0 NA NA


We need that guy with the Ka scope to look for us.

(s) is for spot beam


----------



## I WANT MORE

smiddy said:


> Thanks for the update I WANT MORE! Unfortunately my Sling box software can't be used here at work.  So I can not tell.


I can relate to that. My company won't give me administrative access to load my Sling box on my laptop. Hopefully they will release it for Blackberry soon. Now back to watching for transponder activity. Hope I don't get burn in on the plasma.


----------



## gregjones

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have a feeling we'll need another National version rollout to have the transponders appear....just a hunch...


It was my understanding that the signal meter transponder readings were part of the stream and would not require new software. I believe this has been discussed and verified before.


----------



## Darkscream

Given D*'s propensity for doing things on Wednesdays - wouldn't tomorrow morning make more sense as to when we might see a signal ?

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have a feeling we'll need another National version rollout to have the transponders appear....just a hunch...


Naw, just a signal to enable it in the Software


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregjones said:


> It was my understanding that the signal meter transponder readings were part of the stream and would not require new software. I believe this has been discussed and verified before.


Assuming the code for the proper screens to be there already there, are we?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the code for the proper screens to be there already there, are we?


Wishful thinking maybe??  But even if it is there... I doubt it will be enabled right away...


----------



## iceturkee

i'm not sure what i'm looking for these days but i just noticed a 103 (s) and a 103 (c) in addition to 99 (s), 101, 110 and 119. the 103 (c) is pinging zero's.


----------



## Curtis0620

iceturkee said:


> i'm not sure what i'm looking for these days but i just noticed a 103 (s) and a 103 (c) in addition to 99 (s), 101, 110 and 119.


You want to see a 99 (c).


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

iceturkee said:


> i'm not sure what i'm looking for these days but i just noticed a 103 (s) and a 103 (c) in addition to 99 (s), 101, 110 and 119.


D11 will be 99(c) or 99(a) on the H2x's.


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> Isn't it about time for another Sixto update?? :lol:


yep, it is about time ... 

been about time since yesterday 

D11 is in stealth mode at the moment ...


----------



## Matt9876

Michael D'Angelo;1681065 said:


> D11 will be 99(c) or 99(a) on the H2x's.


Correct !! +1


----------



## iceturkee

Michael D'Angelo;1681065 said:


> D11 will be 99(c) or 99(a) on the H2x's.


thanks....didn't think it would be at 103 but was secretly hoping!


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Yeah, where's that TLE Mr.?
> 
> Seriously Sixto, you make it enjoyable to come here and check out the progress. Thanks for putting up with us punks!


It's been fun ... almost there ... man, I sure hope that next TLE shows progress ... hate to see a "punk" riot ...


----------



## merchione

how long after we see 99(c) or 99(a) start to see something? i.e. new channels?


----------



## Matt9876

merchione said:


> how long after we see 99(c) or 99(a) start to see something? i.e. new channels?


I have a feeling this time it will occur at the same time or maybe one day apart.

Smith P. has a scope that can read the new birds Ka signals."I'm waiting for his report"


----------



## Sixto

Matt9876 said:


> I have a feeling this time it will occur at the same time or maybe one day apart.
> 
> Smith P. has a scope that can read the new birds Ka signals."I'm waiting for his report"


first we will see a TLE at 99.225.

Then we will see 99(c) with some readings ...

The readings will probably flucuate for a few days ...

We will then see channels on a Wednesday at 6am after at least a week (could be longer) ...

Step 1 and 2 can happen simultaneously or in reverse order depending on the TLE releases ...


----------



## Dave

Over at Satellite Tracker for 20:28 on July 15, 2008.

Latitude 0.05 degree
Longitude -100.74 degree
Right Ascension 9h 27m
Declination -6 degree 8 degree 51"
Azmimuth 161.31
Elevation + 50.96 degree
Speed 0
Altitude 35784.61


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> Wishful thinking maybe??  But even if it is there... I doubt it will be enabled right away...


It might already be there....just needs to get the signal from D11.....just like with D10 last time for the 103 transponders....If the speculation is right....we should see something in the next 48 hours in terms of a "sign" that D11 is parked and in final test mode...


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> Over at Satellite Tracker for 20:28 on July 15, 2008.
> 
> Latitude 0.05 degree
> Longitude -100.74 degree
> Right Ascension 9h 27m
> Declination -6 degree 8 degree 51"
> Azmimuth 161.31
> Elevation + 50.96 degree
> Speed 0
> Altitude 35784.61


believe nothing.

there is no new TLE as of this moment in time.

that's all a projection based on a 4 day old TLE.


----------



## Dave

So I would say it is still at 100.74 for now.


----------



## Dave

I thought Satellite Tracker was suppose to be in real time. Surely they would not make guess or projections 4 days out.


----------



## grump

Dave said:


> Over at Satellite Tracker for 20:28 on July 15, 2008.
> 
> Latitude 0.05 degree
> Longitude -100.74 degree
> Right Ascension 9h 27m
> Declination -6 degree 8 degree 51"
> Azmimuth 161.31
> Elevation + 50.96 degree
> Speed 0
> Altitude 35784.61


This is merely a calculation of where the satellite should be based on the last TLE, not real tracking data.


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> So I would say it is still at 100.74 for now.


Not necessarily.

Anything, anything could have happened since Friday at 10:11am UTC.


----------



## Sixto

Dave said:


> I thought Satellite Tracker was suppose to be in real time. Surely they would not make guess or projections 4 days out.


It's not real time.

The only real-time is the exact instant of the TLE, at the TLE timestamp. Everything after is just a projection.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Anything, anything could have happened since Friday at 10:11am UTC.


I believe......I believe..... :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:  :lol:


----------



## Dave

I done the check over at: www.n2yo.com if that helps any?


----------



## LameLefty

Dave said:


> I done the check over at: www.n2yo.com if that helps any?


No. Nothing outside NORAD and its Russian and Chinese equivalents can be considered "real time."

Those are PREDICTIONS based upon the last published orbital data, propagated over time. That is ALL.


----------



## curt8403

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe......I believe..... :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:  :lol:


echoing the cowardly Lion "I do believe ..... I do believe...."


----------



## DarinC

curt8403 said:


> echoing the cowardly Lion "I do believe ..... I do believe...."


Hopefully soon it will be Madeline Kahn's "It's true! It's true!"


----------



## cebbigh

I've been following along here without commenting for a long time because I really don't have anything informative to add. Still don't but I just feel a need to say that I appreciate the information and speculation so far. It's been a fun ride and a good learning experience!


----------



## cartrivision

Dave said:


> So I would say it is still at 100.74 for now.


I would guess that it's currently moving towards 99W or already there.



Dave said:


> I thought Satellite Tracker was suppose to be in real time. Surely they would not make guess or projections 4 days out.


Absolutely they would "guess". That's exactly what they do at that site. They guess where it is now based on it's last known trajectory (which is now 4 days old). If DirecTV has fired the thrusters on the satellite since the web site got the last set of data that they use to project it's current position, their guess will be wrong.


----------



## gregjones

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the code for the proper screens to be there already there, are we?


We don't need new code to be there to see a new channel, either. It has been discussed before and the consensus was that no new code was required to see new transponders.

This is not a guess on my part, but a recounting of the statements of those much more familiar with the software.


----------



## P Smith

Matt9876 said:


> I have a feeling this time it will occur at the same time or maybe one day apart.
> 
> Smith P. has a scope that can read the new birds Ka signals."I'm waiting for his report"


Checking, checking ... no new signals since my last picture posted.


----------



## Sixto

As a point of reference ... as you can see ... D11 is not that far behind in updating ...


Code:


SPACEWAY 1
1 28644U 05015A   [B]08195.54385260[/B] -.00000094  00000-0  10000-3 0  5681
2 28644 000.0327 183.8987 0000110 059.0505 141.7138 01.00271256 11863
SPACEWAY 2
1 28903U 05046B   [B]08192.45859844[/B] -.00000122  00000-0  10000-3 0  4876
2 28903 000.0425 230.4614 0000552 168.3704 315.8747 01.00271352  9809
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   [B]08195.54385108[/B] -.00000094  00000-0  10000-3 0  2013
2 31862 000.0290 175.7431 0000375 216.4496 352.5921 01.00271178  3757
SPACEWAY 3
1 32018U 07036A   [B]08191.54720522 [/B]-.00000151  00000-0  10000-3 0  1305
2 32018 000.0149 126.6126 0000349 241.5514 021.7165 01.00270764  3431
DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A   [B]08193.42466027[/B] -.00000110 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01299
2 32729 000.0260 022.0712 0000669 168.2998 151.4679 01.00270747001250

BTW, there are other DirecTV satellites with 08196 updates ...


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Checking, checking ... no new signals since my last picture posted.


you are checking, and we are waiting. when we get a signal, there will be a cheer that perhaps will be heard across the country?


----------



## bobnielsen

gregjones said:


> It was my understanding that the signal meter transponder readings were part of the stream and would not require new software. I believe this has been discussed and verified before.


I recall that is what happened with D10. There is a new national software release for the Hr20/21 being tested as part of the CE program, but it appears to be aimed at fixing some of the problems discovered with 0x235 and 0x251.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregjones said:


> This is not a guess on my part, but a recounting of the statements of those much more familiar with the software.


I would be one of those...

There were 2 National Release updates in the weeks leading up to D10 having transponders appear.

What is different this time is that the original date for D11 to be parked for final testing was mid-August, and now we're talking about late July. In the mean time....the last NR was pulled due to flaws...it is being aggresively fixed and internally tested.

The code may or may not already be there to present the new transponder signal level screens. They get "activated" (aka turned on) by DirecTV on their end.

No one knows for sure publically...but with the changes to the D11 parking (sooner) combined with the last NR (later), there may be some potential mismatch. In theory, we would have been looking at testing the next round of firmware, with the 0251 series in place (but since they had a major flaw, it was held back for further testing).

There's alot of dynamics going on...I'm simply pointing out that the situation with D11 is a bit different thatn it was with D10, so its not safe to *assume* the new screens will appear at the same time as before.


----------



## MudMover

LameLefty said:


> No. Nothing outside NORAD and its Russian and Chinese equivalents can be considered "real time."
> 
> Those are PREDICTIONS based upon the last published orbital data, propagated over time. That is ALL.


Well that's not exactly true....when on console...I get ISS position as long as we're AOS. With a software package called BEV (Bird's Eye View)...I can even tell you where it is over the Earth.


----------



## LameLefty

MudMover said:


> Well that's not exactly true....when on console...I get ISS position as long as we're AOS. With a software package called BEV (Bird's Eye View)...I can even tell you where it is over the Earth.


Sure, but then again you're not the average Joe Sixpack sitting at home doing this as a hobby either. Given your listed location, I can guess pretty much what "console" you may be referring to.

In principle, with a sextant, a stop watch and some known physical constants I could calculate the orbit of the ISS pretty accurately too. 

(I helped design some of the stuff now on-orbit on the ISS - please don't try to get too pedantic.  )


----------



## curt8403

I would just love to see 50 new channels of HD Test patterns go live while we want for new hd channels to become available. Of course I also own a bridge in Brooklynn


----------



## Sixto

Very little change 



Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE128)
1 32729U 08013A   08197.44898760 -.00000108  00000-0  10000-3 0  1284
2 32729 000.0241 028.0282 0000206 139.1417 187.4379 01.00273620  1290

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		07-15-2008 10:46:32
Orbit # at Epoch	129
Inclination		0.024
RA of A. Node		28.028
Eccentricity		0.0000206
Argument of Perigee	139.142
Revs per day		1.00273620
Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	128 / 0 day(s)

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
TLE#125(07-08-2008 13:01:34) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 5.8 hours,at 110.8 days, 100.70°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 32729U 08013A   08197.44898760 -.00000108  00000-0  10000-3 0  1284
> 2 32729 000.0241 028.0282 0000206 139.1417 187.4379 01.00273620  1290
> 
> details coming ...


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


>


that is what I call very slobbery details.


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> that is what I call very slobbery details.


updated post ... very little movement ... heading out to dinner ...


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> updated post ... very little movement ... heading out to dinner ...


the D11 satellite is headed out to dinner???? Oh Man if that was so we would all have to head for the hills


----------



## dwrats_56

Sixto said:


> updated post ... very little movement ... heading out to dinner ...


BUTT, moving closer
to 99.225


----------



## Matt9876

Going to the right direction and back where it was 22 days ago..


----------



## Indiana627

Anyone else catch during the MLB pregame tonight when they showed the D* blimp that they said "soon to have over 130 of your favorite HD channels this summer" (or something like that). Come on D11!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Indiana627 said:


> Anyone else catch during the MLB pregame tonight when they showed the D* blimp that they said "soon to have over 130 of your favorite HD channels this summer" (or something like that). Come on D11!


If its on a blimp...it must be true...  :lol:


----------



## kw2957

Indiana627 said:


> Anyone else catch during the MLB pregame tonight when they showed the D* blimp that they said "soon to have over 130 of your favorite HD channels this summer" (or something like that). Come on D11!


I was literally just about to post this, but you beat me to the punch!


----------



## purtman

Sixto, it may be just "a little" movement, but it is movement.

The next question is where does D* come up with its "over 130" number? Does this mean we'll soon have RFD in HD? YEAH!!! LOL!


----------



## Interceptor

purtman said:


> Sixto, it may be just "a little" movement, but it is movement.
> 
> The next question is where does D* come up with its "over 130" number? Does this mean we'll soon have RFD in HD? YEAH!!! LOL!


Hey! It's a satellite, not a potty trained toddler! 

Bring on the "Big Joe Polka Show"! HM4HPNHD (Happy music for happy people in Hi Def) :lol:


----------



## kw2957

purtman said:


> Sixto, it may be just "a little" movement, but it is movement.
> 
> The next question is where does D* come up with its "over 130" number? Does this mean we'll soon have RFD in HD? YEAH!!! LOL!


Haha! Dutch Oven! (_The Soup_ reference).


----------



## Sixto

dwrats_56 said:


> BUTT, moving closer
> to 99.225


Experience tells us that the move will be somewhat dramatic. Big change to the TLE and then slight changes to settle in at the final location. That little change of a few hundredths isn't much ...


----------



## DarinC

That depends on when the TLE was vs. when they hit the thrusters. If that last TLE was taken just after it started to move, it could very well be a dramatic change tomorrow.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Experience tells us that the move will be somewhat dramatic. Big change to the TLE and then slight changes to settle in at the final location. That little change of a few hundredths isn't much ...


I'm following your every TLE report with baited breath....  :lol:


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Indiana627 said:


> Anyone else catch during the MLB pregame tonight when they showed the D* blimp that they said "soon to have over 130 of your favorite HD channels this summer" (or something like that). Come on D11!


I've got goose bumps! Smiddy where are you?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

theratpatrol said:


> I've got goose bumps! Smiddy where are you?


Not far away for sure.


----------



## Drew2k

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm following your every TLE report with baited breath....  :lol:


Perhaps you'd prefer to wait with *bated* breath ... I don't even want to think what you'd be using for *bait*!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> Perhaps you'd prefer to wait with *bated* breath ... I don't even want to think what you'd be using for *bait*!


You caught that huh....the "baited" thing was a reference to "baiting" one particular green Orge fellow back here...


----------



## dragonbait

Did someone say bait? Do we need some bait to get get D11 to move to 99.225? I have never been bait for a sat before though.


----------



## MudMover

LameLefty said:


> Sure, but then again you're not the average Joe Sixpack sitting at home doing this as a hobby either. Given your listed location, I can guess pretty much what "console" you may be referring to.
> 
> In principle, with a sextant, a stop watch and some known physical constants I could calculate the orbit of the ISS pretty accurately too.
> 
> (I helped design some of the stuff now on-orbit on the ISS - please don't try to get too pedantic.  )


And guessing...you'd probably be right.....and not being "pedantic" at all...just saying more than anything....as an amateur radio operator...I often track satellites...

What stuff did you help design? Payloads or Systems?


----------



## betterdan

I'm waiting with stink bait breath.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You caught that huh....the "baited" thing was a reference to "baiting" one particular green Orge fellow back here...


I'm lurking, no real update though.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

smiddy said:


> I'm lurking, no real update though.


Yeah... but 130 HD channels?!?!? :eek2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I'm lurking, no real update though.


I tried to tell people that...  


AirRocker said:


> Yeah... but 130 HD channels?!?!? :eek2:


Figured that would get more of a rise myself....but lets just wait a bit longer, and we can all hoot and holler. :lol:


----------



## loveshockey

P Smith said:


> Checking, checking ... no new signals since my last picture posted.


which picture is that?


----------



## smiddy

AirRocker said:


> Yeah... but 130 HD channels?!?!? :eek2:


That's 150 Nationals Man!


----------



## cartrivision

purtman said:


> Sixto, it may be just "a little" movement, but it is movement.
> 
> The next question is where does D* come up with its "over 130" number? Does this mean we'll soon have RFD in HD? YEAH!!! LOL!


Hopefully, we'll have a lot of the 22 HBO/MAX channels that are available in HD but not currently carried by DirecTV.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Has anyone got the time (and software) to run this TLE forward a few days? What will it say?

(I used to have that software for D10, two laptops ago.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

I didn't know such a thing existed. I may have to research this a bit.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Has anyone got the time (and software) to run this TLE forward a few days? What will it say?
> 
> (I used to have that software for D10, two laptops ago.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


It's moving east very very slowly.... not fast enough to meet their "130 HD channels this summer" promise without an increase in eastward speed.


----------



## cartrivision

smiddy said:


> I didn't know such a thing existed. I may have to research this a bit.


Google and download "Orbitron".


----------



## TheRatPatrol

cartrivision said:


> It's moving east very very slowly.... not fast enough to meet their "130 HD channels this summer" promise without an increase in eastward speed.


"More power, more power!!"

"I'm giving her all shes got!"

 :grin:


----------



## Sirshagg

smiddy said:


> That's 150 Nationals Man!


130 = 150  
what kind of new math is this?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Without having seen the blimp myself, I could see them saying 130 this summer and up to 150 capacity. Tho I don't happen to know what the 130 might be at this point.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

cartrivision said:


> Google and download "Orbitron".


Thanks, I've downloaded it and installed it. Very nice program for tracking DirecTV 11.


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> Without having seen the blimp myself, I could see them saying 130 this summer and up to 150 capacity. Tho I don't happen to know what the 130 might be at this point.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Some of them are these.


----------



## harsh

It seems odd that the orbit is still substantially geo. Usually when satellites move, they go into a more distant or nearer orbit and coast so they don't have to burn fuel to execute a lateral "move".


----------



## purtman

We don't know what the readings were for the prior three days. They could have been off a little and this latest move could be part of a large shift.


----------



## cartrivision

Sirshagg said:


> 130 = 150
> what kind of new math is this?


Who said they were stopping at 130? The ad said 130 "this summer".


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> It seems odd that the orbit is still substantially geo. Usually when satellites move, they go into a more distant or nearer orbit and coast so they don't have to burn fuel to execute a lateral "move".


I don't know what you are trying to say since the way to execute a "lateral move" is by a very efficient burn that moves it to a higher or lower orbit, which then causes the lateral move.


----------



## geagles

It is Wednesday, It is almost 5am, and I am waiting Turn It On, Turn It On.


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Has anyone got the time (and software) to run this TLE forward a few days? What will it say?
> 
> (I used to have that software for D10, two laptops ago.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Yep, just did.

Current TLE would never get us there.

Gets it to 100.56 after about a month, then heads back the other way.

They haven't started the move yet. (at least with the last TLE# 128).

BTW, TLE #128 is after #129 (there probably will be another #129).


----------



## merchione

just when we think its getting close....who knows when its going to light up


----------



## Smthkd

Well they need to hurry up before Dish still the show with the success of Echo XI.


----------



## Indiana627

Tom Robertson said:


> Without having seen the blimp myself, I could see them saying 130 this summer and up to 150 capacity. Tho I don't happen to know what the 130 might be at this point.


The blimp didn't have "130 HD channels" written on it, Joe Buck read that promo as they showed the blimp on air. Something like "Tonight's aerial footage brought to you by Directv (show blimp), where you can get up to 130 HD channels this summer."

Just trying to clear up any confusion and hopefully not creating more.


----------



## CKNAV

Smthkd said:


> Well they need to hurry up before Dish still the show with the success of Echo XI.


For what? Echo XI is going to 110 position to replace the satellite that is already there. It does not give E* any more bandwith.


----------



## arxaw

This thread should be called "D11 Sat: Post-*Separation Anxiety*"


----------



## merchione

Indiana627 said:


> The blimp didn't have "130 HD channels" written on it, Joe Buck read that promo as they showed the blimp on air. Something like "Tonight's aerial footage brought to you by Directv (show blimp), where you can get up to 130 HD channels this summer."
> 
> Just trying to clear up any confusion and hopefully not creating more.


I saw the blimp at that that time it said switch to directv call 1-800-DIRECTV and thats when he said "over 130 HD channels this summer".


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

arxaw said:


> This thread should be called "D11 Sat: Post-*Separation Anxiety*"


Nice! :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If Joe Buck made the announcement...and if he knows as much about the HD channels as he does baseball....we may be getting anywhere between 100 and 150 HD channels.  

As I said before...if it was on the blimp...count on it...if Joe Buck said it... :eek2: :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg

AirRocker said:


> Yeah... but 130 HD channels?!?!? :eek2:





smiddy said:


> That's 150 Nationals Man!





Sirshagg said:


> 130 = 150
> what kind of new math is this?





cartrivision said:


> Who said they were stopping at 130? The ad said 130 "this summer".


I don't think anyone stated they are stopping at 130. Apparently 130 was announced and that somehow turned into 150. What I'd really like to know is: Did the ad/blimp say *up to* 130 or did it say 130.


----------



## tcusta00

Are there even 30 more HD channels in existence (worth carrying, that is) at the moment?


----------



## Sirshagg

Indiana627 said:


> "Tonight's aerial footage brought to you by Directv (show blimp), where you can get up to 130 HD channels this summer."
> 
> Just trying to clear up any confusion and hopefully not creating more.


Sigh!. We already have up to 130 HD channels.


----------



## MIAMI1683

tcusta00 said:


> Are there even 30 more HD channels in existence (worth carrying, that is) at the moment?


 Maybe. It would be nice to get all the premiums up and running. HBO, Encore, and MAX at least.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sirshagg said:


> I don't think anyone stated they are stopping at 130. Apparently 130 was announced and that somehow turned into 150. What I'd really like to know is: Did the ad/blimp say *up to* 130 or did it say 130.


The confusion is that some people are taking the 150 by the end of the year promotion from Direct and the 130 by the end of summer advertisement during the All Star game to mean the same thing. It really isn't that complicated. The end of the summer comes before the end of the year. They will have 130 by the end of the summer and then later have 150 by the end of the year. One must get to 130 before they can get to 150.


----------



## DodgerKing

tcusta00 said:


> Are there even 30 more HD channels in existence (worth carrying, that is) at the moment?


Some of these "30 HD Channels" may include the part time RSNs that will be turned over to full time. Whether they are worth carrying is a matter of opinion.


----------



## harsh

cartrivision said:


> I don't know what you are trying to say since the way to execute a "lateral move" is by a very efficient burn that moves it to a higher or lower orbit, which then causes the lateral move.


I'm saying that moving to a lower orbit is the way to go about sliding East, but if you look at the TLE, the apogee and perigee didn't change appreciably.

Perhaps this TLE is a TLE correction and little more.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto, when the thread dirfted to 'numbers' again and again, could you please particiapte and post same type of tracking info in Echostar XI thread ?


----------



## harsh

CKNAV said:


> For what? Echo XI is going to 110 position to replace the satellite that is already there. It does not give E* any more bandwith.


It does when the satellite it replaces (E8) moves to another slot. The beauty of Ku satellites is that you can move them anywhere in the fleet and they'll look just like any other satellite. There are only two slots in the sky (99W and 103W) that you can use the last four (and eventually a fifth) Ka satellites that DIRECTV has launched.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> There are only two slots in the sky (99W and 103W) that you can use the last four (and eventually a fifth) Ka satellites that DIRECTV has launched.


And those of us with lots of trees really appreciate that.


----------



## Sirshagg

DarinC said:


> And those of us with lots of trees really appreciate that.


That's what chainsaws are for


----------



## DarinC

The day I put television over a nice greenspace is the day I need to start getting out more.


----------



## harsh

tcusta00 said:


> Are there even 30 more HD channels in existence (worth carrying, that is) at the moment?


Worth carrying is a matter of perspective. Is a channel that doesn't have any HD "worth carrying" or could the bandwidth better be spent on improving the SD version's quality for all subscribers to enjoy?

Worthwhile HD content is obviously not a major criterion for DIRECTV to carry a "HD" channel. It is much more likely influenced by name familiarity and complex carriage agreements.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Worth carrying is a matter of perspective. Is a channel that doesn't have any HD "worth carrying" or could the bandwidth better be spent on improving the SD version's quality for all subscribers to enjoy?
> 
> Worthwhile HD content is obviously not a major criterion for DIRECTV to carry a "HD" channel. It is much more likely influenced by name familiarity and complex carriage agreements.


Parts of what you say are true.

That said...DirecTV has been working on additional carriage agreements with various providers for quite some time...and continues to negotiate more all the time. The difference is that they will soon be in a position to actually *deliver* them, unlike those other sat folks.

To your last point, as a Dish user, I'm sure your opinion of "worthwhile HD" differs from most folks here, which is why you use Dish. The debate as to what channels are "worthwhile" is neverending, and belongs elsewhere in another thread, perhaps the "Compare DirecTV and Dish" thread.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The debate as to what channels are "worthwhile" is neverending, and belongs elsewhere in another thread, perhaps the "Compare DirecTV and Dish" thread.


Certainly the issue could (and doubtless will) be debated, but I'm completely baffled how it could (or should) be a DIRECTV .vs. DISH Network issue.

The issue of what is a good channel is carrier independent.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Certainly the issue could (and doubtless will) be debated, but I'm completely baffled how it could (or should) be a DIRECTV .vs. DISH Network issue.
> 
> The issue of what is a good channel is carrier independent.


Not necessarily, depending on which carrier actually delivers it. That's only true if both offer the same HD channel discussed.

In any case...this thread is about DirecTV's D11...

..and now back to your regularly scheduled programming...


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sixto, when the thread dirfted to 'numbers' again and again, could you please particiapte and post same type of tracking info in Echostar XI thread ?


Tracking D11 to conclusion ... then off to watch lots more HD (and update the DirecTV HD Thread) ...

Will leave the Echostar XI tracking to the DISH faithful (may comment along the way if time permits but really just focused on DirecTV) ...

No new D11 info yet today ...


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> Tracking D11 to conclusion ... then off to watch lots more HD (and update the DirecTV HD Thread) ...
> 
> Will leave the Echostar XI tracking to the DISH faithful (may comment along the way if time permits but really just focused on DirecTV) ...
> 
> No new D11 info yet today ...


Don't forget about D12 - coming soon to an orbit near you


----------



## merchione

Sirshagg said:


> Don't forget about D12 - coming soon to an orbit near you


when is the launch date for D12?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

merchione said:


> when is the launch date for D12?


2009. I believe some time in the 2nd half of the year.


----------



## bwaldron

Sirshagg said:


> That's what chainsaws are for


Not when the trees are on a neighbor's property. Then, chainsaws could cause "issues."


----------



## Sirshagg

bwaldron said:


> Not when the trees are on a neighbor's property. Then, chainsaws could cause "issues."


That's what realtors are for _(I've got my priorities straight)_ :lol:


----------



## tonyd79

Sirshagg said:


> I don't think anyone stated they are stopping at 130. Apparently 130 was announced and that somehow turned into 150. What I'd really like to know is: Did the ad/blimp say *up to* 130 or did it say 130.


The DirecTV provided copy that Joe Buck read said "over 130" not "up to 130."


----------



## Tigerman73

bwaldron said:


> Not when the trees are on a neighbor's property. Then, chainsaws could cause "issues."


That's what nighttime is for, either that or they go on vacation and their trees just fell in a freak storm while you were gone.


----------



## Drew2k

Yeah, Joe Buck wasn't making stuff up off the top of his head - he was handed the promotional material to read and then he read it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tonyd79 said:


> The DirecTV provided copy that Joe Buck read said "over 130" not "up to 130."


Why am I not surprised he read it wrong... 

:backtotop

I would like to speculate that the first "sighting" (based on a transponder appearance) from D11 comes some time next week.


----------



## n3ntj

I also heard him say "over 130".. when I heard that, I RW and verified it. That was the only time during the game (at least to the 12th inning when I went to bed) that he re-read that promo. Everything else about D* was the 'if you consider yourself a sports fan...' promo which didn't mention HD channels.


----------



## man_rob

All these folks with DVRs, and not one recorded this? If you did, post it!!


----------



## ddobson

bwaldron said:


> Not when the trees are on a neighbor's property. Then, chainsaws could cause "issues."


Yes, then you have to drill small holes in the tree trunk and inject roundup to slowly kill the tree.

That or buy and release some beavers and put collars on them and put an invisible fence around the tree.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Let me try this again...  

:backtotop 

I would like to speculate that the first "sighting" (based on a transponder appearance) from D11 comes some time next week.


----------



## cartrivision

tcusta00 said:


> Are there even 30 more HD channels in existence (worth carrying, that is) at the moment?


For starters, there are more than 20 HD HBO/MAX channels currently available that DirecTV doesn't carry.


----------



## tcusta00

cartrivision said:


> For starters, there are more than 20 HD HBO/MAX channels currently available that DirecTV doesn't carry.


Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a few of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


----------



## LameLefty

tcusta00 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a lot of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


I'd love to have HBO Signature in HD. I have hopes for D11 in this regard. Time will tell. The rest would be nice to have, but HBO Signature is aweseome and NEEDS to be in HD. Soon.


----------



## bozzaj

Umm... Do you have the same DirecTV as I do? Out of those 15 channels, I only have 2 in HD. HBO East, HBO West (Both "HBO"), Max East and Max West (Both "Max").

That leaves 13 channels I don't have in HD.



tcusta00 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a lot of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


----------



## RAD

tcusta00 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a lot of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


That shows 15 channels, from what I see D* only has 4 of them, I couldn't call that "a lot".


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> It does when the satellite it replaces (E8) moves to another slot. The beauty of Ku satellites is that you can move them anywhere in the fleet and they'll look just like any other satellite. There are only two slots in the sky (99W and 103W) that you can use the last four (and eventually a fifth) Ka satellites that DIRECTV has launched.


Wow! That's pretty impressive. So DISH can move their satellites anywhere and DirecTV can only move their's where they are licensed to broadcast from? Who at the FCC did Charlie have to ______ to get that kind of treatment? :lol:

Also, I thought that E8 was being replaced because there were problems with it's performance. So DISH plans to use a crippled satellite elsewhere as part of their main fleet?


----------



## bozzaj

RAD said:


> That shows 15 channels, from what I see D* only has 4 of them, I couldn't call that "a lot".


Actually, only 2 of them. Both of those have duplicates - East and West feeds are the same channel.


----------



## tcusta00

RAD said:


> That shows 15 channels, from what I see D* only has 4 of them, I couldn't call that "a lot".


Sorry, I'll change the "a lot" to "a few" - bad diction on my part. But it's certainly not "over 20" that we _don't _have - it's actually well under... that was my point. 

and brings us back to my original point... are there actually 30 channels in HD that we don't have that we'd actually want? Let's say there's 15 premiums. What's left? Travel, FBN, and a few others maybe. I'm asking if there are really 30 more channels, right now, that we want...


----------



## bobnielsen

tcusta00 said:


> It's certainly not "over 20" that we _don't _have - it's actually well under... that was my point.
> 
> and brings us back to my original point... are there actually 30 channels in HD that we don't have that we'd actually want? Let's say there's 15 premiums. What's left? Travel, FBN, and a few others maybe. I'm asking if there are really 30 more channels, right now, that we want...


Smiddy is making a list. 39 so far and counting. I'm sure that there must be at least one viewer who wants each of them.


----------



## Curtis0620

Lifetime; Lifetime Movie; Hallmark; Hallmark Movie; WGN; QVC; Foxnews; AMC; IFC; Outdoor 2; ABC Family; RFD; TCM; Planet Green; ESPNU (Aug).


----------



## tcusta00

bobnielsen said:


> Smiddy is making a list. 39 so far and counting.


As soon as I saw World Fishing Network on there I !rolling.... hold on while I catch my breath.

And there's 15 Vooms in there... I'll pass.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Tracking D11 to conclusion ... then off to watch lots more HD (and update the DirecTV HD Thread) ...
> 
> Will leave the Echostar XI tracking to the DISH faithful (may comment along the way if time permits but really just focused on DirecTV) ...
> 
> No new D11 info yet today ...


The thread become unmanageble by members or mods. 

And while nothing happening with d11 ... 
Just for start post your regular format data - skip those haters (Dish vs Dtv ppl) posts. I'm thinking someone with your skills who never participate in DTV threads could have good start by that.


----------



## cartrivision

tcusta00 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a lot of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


Below is a list of 22 HBO/MAX HD channels that DirecTV does not carry. Eight of them are west coast mirrors, but still, that leaves 14 unique HD HBO/MAX channels that DirecTV doesn't carry.

HBO2 East
HBO2 West
HBO Signature East
HBO Signature West
MoreMAX East
MoreMAX West
HBO Family East
HBO Family West
HBO Zone East
HBO Zone West
ActionMAX East
ActionMAX West
5StarMAX East
HBO Comedy East
HBO Comedy West
HBO Latino East
HBO Latino West
ThrillerMAX East
ThrillerMAX West
WMAX East
@MAX East
OuterMAX East


----------



## kw2957

cartrivision said:


> Below is a list of 22 HBO/MAX HD channels that DirecTV does not carry. Eight of them are west coast mirrors, but still, that leaves 14 unique HD HBO/MAX channels that DirecTV doesn't carry.
> 
> HBO2 East
> HBO2 West
> HBO Signature East
> HBO Signature West
> MoreMAX East
> MoreMAX West
> HBO Family East
> HBO Family West
> HBO Zone East
> HBO Zone West
> ActionMAX East
> ActionMAX West
> 5StarMAX East
> HBO Comedy East
> HBO Comedy West
> HBO Latino East
> HBO Latino West
> ThrillerMAX East
> ThrillerMAX West
> WMAX East
> @MAX East
> OuterMAX East


Nice list. Thanks!


----------



## tcusta00

cartrivision said:


> Below is a list of 22 HBO/MAX HD channels that DirecTV does not carry. Eight of them are west coast mirrors, but still, that leaves 14 unique HD HBO/MAX channels that DirecTV doesn't carry.
> 
> HBO2 East
> HBO2 West
> HBO Signature East
> HBO Signature West
> MoreMAX East
> MoreMAX West
> HBO Family East
> HBO Family West
> HBO Zone East
> HBO Zone West
> ActionMAX East
> ActionMAX West
> 5StarMAX East
> HBO Comedy East
> HBO Comedy West
> HBO Latino East
> HBO Latino West
> ThrillerMAX East
> ThrillerMAX West
> WMAX East
> @MAX East
> OuterMAX East


Well, 13 is different than over 20 - that's all I'm saying.


----------



## Matt9876

D11 sat channels list speculation MPEG4 HD:	

HBO HD Channel 70
SHO HD Channel 71
ES2 HD Channel 72
ESP HD Channel 73
UHD HD Channel 74
TNT HD Channel 75
HDTH HD Channel 76
HDNM HD Channel 78
HDN HD Channel 79
CBSWHD Channel 391
NBCWHD Channel 393
ABCWHD Channel 397
FOXWHD Channel 399 
NFLST Sports 
ActionMax HD
PBS HD
CBS College Sports HD
Lifetime HD
Encore HD
HBO 2 HD 
HBO Comedy HD
HBO Family HD
HBO Latino HD
HBO Signature HD
HBO West HD
HBO Zone HD
Starz Comedy HD
Starz Edge HD
Starz Kids HD
Stars Family HD
Travel Channel HD
Hallmark Movie Channel HD
WGN America HD 
Lifetime Movie Network HD
RFD HD 
Outdoor Channel HD
ABC Family HD
Planet Green HD
Fox News HD
Crime & Investigation Network HD
QVC HD
Lifetime HD
AMC HD
BBC American HD
Comedy Central HD
Encore HD 
Hallmark Movie Channel HD
World Fishing Network HD
Several PPV HDs
Several Sports Channels.


This is based on info in this forum and the mpeg 2 to mpeg 4 conversion.


----------



## merchione

Matt9876 said:


> D11 sat channels list speculation MPEG4 HD:
> 
> HBO HD Channel 70
> SHO HD Channel 71
> ES2 HD Channel 72
> ESP HD Channel 73
> UHD HD channel 74
> TNT HD Channel 75
> HDTH HD Channel 76
> HDNM HD Channel 78
> HDN HD Channel 79
> CBSWHD Channel 391
> NBCWHD Channel 393
> ABCWHD Channel 397
> FOXWHD Channel 399
> NFLST Sports
> ActionMax HD
> CBS College Sports HD
> Lifetime HD
> Encore HD
> HBO 2 HD
> HBO Comedy HD
> HBO Family HD
> HBO Latino HD
> HBO Signature HD
> HBO West HD
> HBO Zone HD
> Starz Comedy HD
> Starz Edge HD
> Starz Kids
> Stars Family
> Travel Channel HD
> Hallmark Movie Channel HD
> WGN America HD
> Lifetime Movie Network HD
> RFD HD
> Outdoor Channel HD
> ABC Family HD
> Planet Green HD
> Fox News HD
> Crime & Investigation Network HD
> QVC HD
> Lifetime HD
> AMC HD
> BBC American HD
> Comedy Central HD
> Encore HD
> Hallmark Movie Channel HD
> WGN America HD
> World Fishing Network
> Several PPV HDs
> Several Sports Channels.
> 
> This is based on info in this forum and the mpeg2 to mpeg 4 conversion.


cool thanks... Nice list


----------



## man_rob

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Let me try this again...
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> I would like to speculate that the first "sighting" (based on a transponder appearance) from D11 comes some time next week.


I'm sure when something happens, the main topic will come back with a fury. In the meantime, what do you want, endless posts asking "Has anyone gotten a signal yet?" with the reply, "nope."? Or maybe you'd prefer post ofter post of, "Maybe July, maybe August, maybe September?" Nothing is much is happening at this moment, so we are speculating on what channels the new sat will bring us.


----------



## cartrivision

tcusta00 said:


> Well, 13 is different than over 20 - that's all I'm saying.


It's still a very significantly lopsided don't carry to carry ratio, and although I don't necessarily want every west coast feed in that list, I would like the west version of a few of the main ones like we have now on the SD premium channels, so that makes the don't carry to carry ratio even larger.


----------



## Hdhead

n3ntj said:


> I also heard him say "over 130".. when I heard that, I RW and verified it. That was the only time during the game (at least to the 12th inning when I went to bed) that he re-read that promo. Everything else about D* was the 'if you consider yourself a sports fan...' promo which didn't mention HD channels.


Here is the proof!


----------



## Ed Campbell

Both Fox and Setanta have access to HD soccer in the UK, France, Scotland, etc.. Drives me nuts watching a match in SD - especially the really drab SD Fox offers - and the UK announcer is saying "Tune to channel 408 to watch the match in High Definition".


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Hdhead said:


> Here is the proof!


Looks like he got it right.

Case dismissed. 

Now all we need is D11 to say hello or something, and the fun begins... :hurah:


----------



## Sirshagg

tcusta00 said:


> Wow, I didn't know that. According to HBO's website there are only these in HD, a few of which we already get in HD on DirecTV.


Heck DirecTv doesn't even give us 9 of these in SD now!


----------



## uncrules

Remember that Showtime is adding 8 more HD channels in August.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/premium060108.htm



> Showtime says it will add eight new High-Definition channels in August, bringing its overall HD channel total to 12.
> 
> That's according to an article by Multichannel News.
> 
> Showtime officials also tell Multichannel News that it will add another 10 high-def channels by the first quarter of 2009.
> 
> Not be outdone, HBO executives tell the publication that all 26 of its channel feeds will be high-def by the end of June. The network has already launched 19 different HD channels.
> 
> Additionally, HBO says it plans to offer all content in high-def by the end of this year. Currently, the pay network broadcasts about 85 percent of its programming in HD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Wasn't sure, so now that we have that all clear, where's D11?


Now Tom.....you know the answer better than most - up there... 

The real question is *when is D11 *(active)?


----------



## RobertE

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now Tom.....you know the answer better than most - up there...
> 
> The real question is *when is D11 *(active)?


Soon.

Duh :lol:


----------



## Indiana627

DIRECTV-11 said:


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


Any news you can share with us? Any updates to pass along?

And make sure to look out for EchoStar XI up there! Wouldn't want you two to bump into each other.


----------



## dhines

Ed Campbell said:


> Both Fox and Setanta have access to HD soccer in the UK, France, Scotland, etc.. Drives me nuts watching a match in SD - especially the really drab SD Fox offers - and the UK announcer is saying "Tune to channel 408 to watch the match in High Definition".


true. the real issue isn't the content, it is the technical cability to provide HD content; golTV, setanta and FSC just don't have it.

sucks, but such is life.

sorry, thought i would post something on topic to avoid getting flamed . . .

so anyone getting signal yet? lol


----------



## JLucPicard

Indiana627 said:


> Any news you can share with us? Any updates to pass along?
> 
> And make sure to look out for EchoStar XI up there! Wouldn't want you two to bump into each other.


Ah Crap, Indy!  You had me all excited there for a second until I found the post you quoted was two months old! :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

Indiana627 said:


> DIRECTV-11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.
> 
> 
> 
> Any news you can share with us? Any updates to pass along?
> 
> And make sure to look out for EchoStar XI up there! Wouldn't want you two to bump into each other.
Click to expand...

Why bother asking him? Anything specific that DIRECTV-11 has posted here about himself has been wrong. I think that the other people here who have been reading the tea leaves in the last week have a better idea when "soon" is than he does.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Cartrivision, why be so mean? He's a nice person having fun, sharing what he knows; tho sometimes his sources get superseded by ongoing adjustments. (And he's got good sources.)

Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

<Moderator note> This thread has become a wide ranging discussion about D11, what it might help DIRECTV do, how channels might be affected, etc. There was a topic discussing MPEG2 to MPEG4 conversions, that I decided to move into its own thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133403

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RobertE said:


> Soon.
> 
> Duh :lol:


I had that coming.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I had that coming.


Yes, you did, now shape up Mr. 

I liked the one I read earlier this morning that this read should be D11 Seperation Anxiety, I mean wow, that so spells it out (sorry I can't recall who wrote, kudos)!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yes, you did, now shape up Mr.
> 
> I liked the one I read earlier this morning that this read should be D11 Seperation Anxiety, I mean wow, that so spells it out (sorry I can't recall who wrote, kudos)!


...or pehaps HD Channel Deficiency Syndrome.... 

D11.....move that bus.....:lol:


----------



## smiddy

Oh, it's a Syndrome, but I would think Mental Dementia over HD Hyper Wantage.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

CKNAV said:


> For what? Echo XI is going to 110 position to replace the satellite that is already there. It does not give E* any more bandwith.


And Echostar 2 has failed at 148.



Hdhead said:


> Here is the proof!


That link didn't work for me, it said I had to register.


----------



## Ernie

Sixto said:


> ...
> 
> No new D11 info yet today ...


The national release of 0x254 and 0x255 (last night for me) might be the news we are waiting for.

Ernie


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Oh, it's a Syndrome, but I would think Mental Dementia over HD Hyper Wantage.


...and its contagous...


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and its contagous...


I caught it a long time ago...can you tell? :hurah:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I caught it a long time ago...can you tell? :hurah:


Sure...turning Green is one of the symptoms....

The other is D11 waiting withdrawl.

I've caught it recently myself.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure...turning Green is one of the symptoms....
> 
> The other is D11 waiting withdrawl.
> 
> I've caught it recently myself.


Yep, I thought so! 

Now, looking at Orbitron I can see it is on a slow boat to 99.225, now at 100.6655.

It needs to speed up darn it!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yep, I thought so!
> 
> Now, looking at Orbitron I can see it is on a slow boat to 99.225, now at 100.6655.
> 
> It needs to speed up darn it!


It will my friend...it will.....

They could make that move in one note, uh, one day... if they wanted to....


----------



## smiddy

I hope so...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I hope so...


We're down to days before parking......I can just feel it in my bones....or maybe....its lumbago...


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We're down to days before parking......I can just feel it in my bones....or maybe....its lumbago...


Ok, I'll trust you then, since its lumbago... 

1.4 degrees to move and power up and start sending glorious channels our way, let's do it DirecTV 11...come on!


----------



## grump

smiddy said:


> Ok, I'll trust you then, since its lumbago...
> 
> 1.4 degrees to move and power up and start sending glorious channels our way, let's do it DirecTV 11...come on!


So, at geosynchronous orbit, anybody know what 1.4 degrees is in feet, meters or miles? My trig is a little rusty.


----------



## Drew2k

bozzaj said:


> Actually, only 2 of them. Both of those have duplicates - East and West feeds are the same channel.


But they're not simulcasts, and that's significant when discussing bandwidth, because in real-time DIRECTV is using bandwidth for 4 HBO HD channels. It just happens that two of the channels have content that was shown three hours earlier on the other two channels.

After D11 goes live, I wonder if we eventually could see some new West coast feeds for the other premium channels ...


----------



## grump

grump said:


> So, at geosynchronous orbit, anybody know what 1.4 degrees is in feet, meters or miles? My trig is a little rusty.


Ok, maybe no trig needed. Let's see...

26,199 mile radius for geosync. Circumference would therefore be about 164608 miles.
So, then (164608 * 1.4 degrees) / 360 (the degrees in a circle) ~= 640.
That means D11 would have to travel about 640 miles to get home.

I know, I know, that's overly simplified, but it at least gives me a notion.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

grump said:


> Ok, maybe no trig needed. Let's see...
> 
> 26,199 mile radius for geosync. Circumference would therefore be about 164608 miles.
> So, then (164608 * 1.4 degrees) / 360 (the degrees in a circle) ~= 640.
> That means D11 would have to travel about 640 miles to get home.


I think I'm going to be ill...... :lol:

I just had a flashback to high school math......NOT a pleasant experience.....


----------



## LameLefty

grump said:


> Ok, maybe no trig needed. Let's see...
> 
> 26,199 mile radius for geosync. Circumference would therefore be about 164608 miles.
> So, then (164608 * 1.4 degrees) / 360 (the degrees in a circle) ~= 640.
> That means D11 would have to travel about 640 miles to get home.
> 
> I know, I know, that's overly simplified, but it at least gives me a notion.


Off the top of my head that sounds plausible. I did the math during the D10 anticipation last summer and estimated it about 45 miles per tenth of a degree - I think someone had asked how far apart D10 and Spaceway 1 could be and both still be considered "at" 103. Your result correlates with my remembered numbers.


----------



## Sirshagg

LameLefty said:


> Off the top of my head that sounds plausible. I did the math during the D10 anticipation last summer and estimated it about 45 miles per tenth of a degree - I think someone had asked how far apart D10 and Spaceway 1 could be and both still be considered "at" 103. Your result correlates with my remembered numbers.


Yeah, but apparently you can't be trusted :grin: 
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1683271&postcount=99


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Now, looking at Orbitron I can see it is on a slow boat to 99.225, now at 100.6655 ...


Current TLE does not lead to 99.225 ... need a major adjustment which hasn't happened yet ...

The current TLE would take it to 100.55 on 8/15 and then back the other way ...

No move yet ... and no new TLE today (as of now).

BTW, there was a D10 TLE update today ... just nothing for D11 ...


----------



## smiddy

I suspect then since the Orbitron app is using that very CE it is making adjustments based on the orbit projected by the TLE, yes? 

Just when I think I've got this stuff figured out, I realize how much I don't


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> I suspect then since the Orbitron app is using that very CE it is making adjustments based on the orbit projected by the TLE, yes?
> 
> Just when I think I've got this stuff figured out, I realize how much I don't


Yep.


----------



## cartrivision

Ernie said:


> The national release of 0x254 and 0x255 (last night for me) might be the news we are waiting for.
> 
> Ernie


Well there is certainly a reason that they rushed out 0x251 without it going through the normal testing channels first, and after that backfired and they had to abort the national release of 0x251, they then rushed to national release of 0x254 which has the show stopping "freeze-up after pause" bug.

It sure seems that somebody has been pushing for a new national release to be distributed to the HR2x community sooner than later, and the push seems to be causing some of the normal QA procedures to be bypassed.

Is this push related to an imminent lighting up of D11? Who knows?

I'll bet that we'll have yet another national release real soon to fix the show stoppers in the latest one.


----------



## l8er

cartrivision said:


> Well there is certainly a reason that they rushed out 0x251 without it going through the normal testing channels first, and after that backfired and they had to abort the national release of 0x251, they then rushed to national release of 0x254 which has the show stopping "freeze-up after pause" bug.


 I haven't been sleeping much lately, so between 0x251 and 0x254, I saw 0x235 get pushed back out to at least some boxes (mine is an HR20-700).


----------



## cartrivision

l8er said:


> I haven't been sleeping much lately, so between 0x251 and 0x254, I saw 0x235 get pushed back out to at least some boxes (mine is an HR20-700).


Yep I read about that here, but just days later, evidently someone decided that they needed something that was in 0x251 and 0x254 to be out there ASAP more than they needed the stability of 0x235.


----------



## smiddy

DirecTV 11 we need a new TLE with GOOD NEWS, show us that you're moving to your final location, *PLEASE*!


----------



## jdphil99

With apologies to Dire Straits, I want a T....L....Eeeeeeeeee.


----------



## FHSPSU67

smiddy said:


> DirecTV 11 we need a new TLE with GOOD NEWS, show us that you're moving to your final location, *PLEASE*!


Smiddy, I took the liberty of modifying your post and I'm sure you'll agree:lol:


----------



## smiddy

FHSPSU67 said:


> Smiddy, I took the liberty of modifying your post and I'm sure you'll agree:lol:


I was going to go green, but I figured DirecTV Blue was more appropriate. :lol: Thanks!


----------



## FHSPSU67

Yeah, I guess we have two shots at it working, now


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Still standing by for the good news via the "Sixto report".


----------



## merchione

:welcome: very nervous I hate waiting!!


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Still standing by for the good news via the "Sixto report".


Glad you are still an optimist about D11...

I'm just frustrated by how long this entire process has taken. I know that it is Rocket Science we are dealing with here, but lets get this dog and pony show on the road.

My wife is always bugging me about the travel channel in HD and she doesn't get why we watched a successful launch back in March and still don't have any service from this new bird. I've tried to explain the testing and fuel savings and everything else, but i've even given up now.

It will happen when it happens and when it happens, hopefully we'll get another new HD expansion


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Still standing by for the good news via the "Sixto report".


That has a nice ring to it... "The Sixto Report"... :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Oh, HD expansion is coming, its the when that is killing us all.


----------



## smiddy

AirRocker said:


> That has a nice ring to it... "The Sixto Report"... :lol:


I concur, or should I say? I second that, anyone want to move to motion?


----------



## man_rob

Maybe a lottery will bring HD sooner. Oh wait, we should have had last month. "Lottery in June, HD will be heavy soon."


----------



## Sixto

"Patience, grasshopper" ...


----------



## tcusta00

smiddy said:


> I concur, or should I say? I second that, anyone want to move to motion?


Motion to confirm "The Sixto Report" as official... all in favor.... AYE! AYE! AYE! AYE! 
The "ayes" have it.

*CLUNK*

This proceeding is adjourned pending further information on the next Sixto Report.


----------



## smiddy

I'm having a deck installed this week and the boards being used are in HD: http://www.gaf.com/Content/GAF/DECKRES/Product-CT-HD.html


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tcusta00 said:


> Motion to confirm "The Sixto Report" as official... all in favor.... AYE! AYE! AYE! AYE!
> The "ayes" have it.
> 
> *CLUNK*
> 
> This proceeding is adjourned pending further information on the next Sixto Report.


My gosh...what have I done.... :eek2: :eek2: :lol: :lol:


----------



## smiddy

tcusta00 said:


> Motion to confirm "The Sixto Report" as official... all in favor.... AYE! AYE! AYE! AYE!
> The "ayes" have it.
> 
> *CLUNK*
> 
> This proceeding is adjourned pending further information on the next Sixto Report.


Roger that, over and <cough> under!  :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Roger that, over and <cough> under!  :lol:


You may be glad to know that I have refrained from echoing my famous line on this topic - "How loing is this going to take".


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

*The Sixto Report: D11 Sat Status Discussion*

!rolling

Nice!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> *The Sixto Report: D11 Sat Status Discussion*
> 
> !rolling
> 
> Nice!


It seems only fitting that with my 6000th post I take credit for this change, even though I had virtually nothing to do with it.  :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sixto

AirRocker said:


> *The Sixto Report: D11 Sat Status Discussion*
> 
> !rolling
> 
> Nice!


I gotta figure out how to build one of these NORAD satellite tracking devices (to remove the middle-man) ... 

May need to win the lottery first ...


----------



## LameLefty

Love the new thread title . . . :lol:


----------



## afulkerson

:jumpingja :engel10: :new_popco :joy: :icon_hug: :balloons:


AirRocker said:


> *The Sixto Report: D11 Sat Status Discussion*
> 
> !rolling
> 
> Nice!


----------



## Tom Robertson

"Give us Sixto minutes, we'll give you the world."

"News at Sixto."

"Updates every Sixto the hour."

Sixto meets D11 and 150 HD was born...


----------



## bobnielsen

"The Joy of Sixto"


----------



## PoitNarf

You're all getting a little loopy :lol: 

What's the consensus on a new TLE being released sometime today?


----------



## bobnielsen

To paraphrase Orson Welles, "We will release no TLE before its time."


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

PoitNarf said:


> You're all getting a little loopy :lol:


hdtvfan started it! :sure:



PoitNarf said:


> What's the consensus on a new TLE being released sometime today?


Yeah Sixto! Bring on another TLE!!


----------



## kw2957

smiddy said:


> I'm having a deck installed this week and the boards being used are in HD: http://www.gaf.com/Content/GAF/DECKRES/Product-CT-HD.html


Haha! What's next? HD Grills and barbecuing utensils?! :hurah: :grin: :hurah:


----------



## Sixto

PoitNarf said:


> What's the consensus on a new TLE being released sometime today?


Rather random but mid-day ET has been more often then other times ... but impossible to predict ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> "Give us Sixto minutes, we'll give you the world."
> 
> "News at Sixto."
> 
> "Updates every Sixto the hour."
> 
> Sixto meets D11 and 150 HD was born...


Now I know what Dr. Franenstein felt like...  :lol: :lol:


----------



## merchione

The new title only seems fit:goodjob:


----------



## Hdhead

Sixto - we need a podcast! Daily update, could be a winner!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I almost feel like I owe Sixto an apology for putting him in this predicament...on the other hand...his name is now "in lights".  :lol:


----------



## man_rob

The Satellite Channel, with D11 updates on the Sixtos.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I almost feel like I owe Sixto an apology for putting him in this predicament...on the other hand...his name is now "in lights".  :lol:


Been a total team effort all along the way ...

We're real close now ...

If anybody spots a new TLE, feel free to post, they're totally random, and 24x7 monitoring during the sunny summer is an adventure ...

Looking forward to the next "report" ...


----------



## P Smith

If you idling a litlle bit, would you check E-11 also ?


----------



## timmac

who put that in the muffin house?


----------



## dragonbait

Sixto said:


> If anybody spots a new TLE, feel free to post, they're totally random, and 24x7 monitoring during the sunny summer is an adventure ...


I am surprised no one has put together a small program that checks for new TLEs every few minutes and then notifies them when a new one is found.


----------



## Dave

My prediction for today will be that D11 is still in the 100.66 area. I know we are all wanting it to go places. But it would seem that DirectV is in no hurry to get there. I am still holding to a Sept. 3, 2008 time frame for D11 to go live. Remember DirectV set this all in motion years ago. Please be very very patient.


----------



## DarinC

Dave said:


> My prediction for today will be that D11 is still in the 100.66 area. I know we are all wanting it to go places. But it would seem that DirectV is in no hurry to get there. I am still holding to a Sept. 3, 2008 time frame for D11 to go live.


My prediction is your prediction will be incorrect.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dragonbait said:


> I am surprised no one has put together a small program that checks for new TLEs every few minutes and then notifies them when a new one is found.


I'd be surprised if such a program is already NOT being used be several people. Based on previous data posted here....there's pretty strong evidence some folks are following things very closely.

I know Sixto is...


----------



## bruinfever

The Sixto Report...Very Nice


----------



## jdspencer

I have signal strength readings on 99s TPs 1, 3 and 6 with my HR20-100 NR 0x235.

Mean anything?


----------



## curt8403

jdspencer said:


> I have signal strength readings on 99s TPs 1, 3 and 6 with my HR20-100 NR 0x235.
> 
> Mean anything?


nope S is spotbeam. you are looking at a spaceway sat, not D11


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'd be surprised if such a program is already NOT being used be several people. Based on previous data posted here....there's pretty strong evidence some folks are following things very closely.
> 
> I know Sixto is...




Getting notified of the update is the easy part ...

Dropping everything at a moments notice and posting a summary here is the "fun" part ... the TLE can be released at any instant 24x7 ...

Been a total team effort as usually at least one of 4-5 people have been near a computer at each update ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Get notified of the update is the easy part ...
> 
> Dropping everything at a moments notice and posting a summary here is the "fun" part ...


Its what you live for, and we whine about.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Its what you live for, and we whine about.


Yep ... with LameLefty providing the rocket science expertise ... and Ken984 has been great with posting TLE's within 3-4 minutes when others (including myself) are elsewhere ...


----------



## smiddy

NICE! The Sixto Report: D11 Sat Status Discussion

Three cheers for Sixto! Hip hip, hurray! Hip hip, hurray! Hip hip, hurray!

:cheers:

So, I will be checking for TLEs every once in a while, but I think I will put together a TLE checker program this evening so I can get an email once a new one pops up (or is that out?)!


----------



## kw2957

So, just to refresh my memory, what should I be looking for in the Satellite strengths on an HR21-100?? I'm a bit confused because someone asked about an H21, etc.


----------



## Sixto

kw2957 said:


> So, just to refresh my memory, what should I be looking for in the Satellite strengths on an HR21-100?? I'm a bit confused because someone asked about an H21, etc.


When D11 lights up ... there will be 99(c) for the new national HD transponders ... and 99(s) should have new readings eventually for the new HD LIL ... on the HR2x boxes.


----------



## bigskyirish

This may be the wrong thread in which to ask this question, but given that all the D11 experts seem to be hanging out here, I figured it might be better than starting a new one. As far as adding local SD DMAs when D11 goes live, does DirecTV typically make any type of announcement as to which markets will be added or do the locals just suddenly show up in those markets? If they do make an announcement, do they typically wait until after the satellite goes live?


----------



## curt8403

bigskyirish said:


> This may be the wrong thread in which to ask this question, but given that all the D11 experts seem to be hanging out here, I figured it might be better than starting a new one. As far as adding local SD DMAs when D11 goes live, does DirecTV typically make any type of announcement as to which markets will be added or do the locals just suddenly show up in those markets? If they do make an announcement, do they typically wait until after the satellite goes live?


announcements will be made after the sat is live, and most likely about 3 weeks or so before broadcast begins


----------



## Tigerman73

DarinC said:


> My prediction is your prediction will be incorrect.


My prediction will be there will be more predictions and I predict that one of those prediction will predict correctly.


----------



## merchione

The scroll on the HD page on D*.com it shows MTV2 HD and BET HD those must be the first channels we might get.....


----------



## jlhoyt13432

Tigerman73 said:


> My prediction will be there will be more predictions and I predict that one of those prediction will predict correctly.


Predictably


----------



## DarinC

LOL, I'm imagining a collective sigh of disappointment.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

merchione said:


> The scroll on the HD page on D*.com it shows MTV2 HD and BET HD those must be the first channels we might get.....


Sure hope they can do better than that...  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sure hope they can do better than that...  :lol:


they will, don't worry...be happy!


----------



## Tom Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I almost feel like I owe Sixto an apology for putting him in this predicament...on the other hand...his name is now "in lights".  :lol:


I made the change, both to have some fun and to honor Sixto for his outstanding efforts. I know how much effort it can be, I did similar for S2 and D10 (and not nearly as well as he's doing.) 

I also thank Lamelefty and ken984 for their excellent help and input.

Good job guys!
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> I made the change, both to have some fun and to honor Sixto for his outstanding efforts. I know how much effort it can be, I did similar for S2 and D10 (and not nearly as well as he's doing.)
> 
> I also thank Lamelefty and ken984 for their excellent help and input.
> 
> Good job guys!
> Tom


...and he and I already PMed each other and everything is cool.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and he and I already PMed each other and everything is cool.


You are the kewlest, move-it, move-it! 

Now, back to TLE hunting!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Now, back to TLE hunting!


Me thinks its still going to be some time next week before D11 earns a parking ticket.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Me thinks its still going to be some time next week before D11 earns a parking ticket.


I hope not, I hope it is WAY sooner!


----------



## petergaryr

merchione said:


> The scroll on the HD page on D*.com it shows MTV2 HD and BET HD those must be the first channels we might get.....


That would be too funny. MTV2 before MTV even shows any HD. :lol:

I have hopes for greater things.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I could tell everyone... but unless I was very lucky, I'd be wrong...


----------



## merchione

petergaryr said:


> That would be too funny. MTV2 before MTV even shows any HD. :lol:
> 
> I have hopes for greater things.


it also shows MTV HD too


----------



## DarinC

I wonder if that was not intended to be shown yet. When I go to their site, I don't see those in the scroll, as if they've "fixed" it. I see the currently carried networks (including MTV) but not MTV2 nor BET.


----------



## merchione

DarinC said:


> I wonder if that was not intended to be shown yet. When I go to their site, I don't see those in the scroll, as if they've "fixed" it. I see the currently carried networks (including MTV) but not MTV2 nor BET.


I just went back and logged in and the scroll is going the other direction but i can still see them


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I hope not, I hope it is WAY sooner!


We all do...but then...I'm more of a realist than an optimist... 


Tom Robertson said:


> I could tell everyone... but unless I was very lucky, I'd be wrong...


No more wrong than the rest of us... :lol:


----------



## n3ntj

DarinC said:


> LOL, I'm imagining a collective sigh of disappointment.


I hear ya, brother.


----------



## kevhow

DarinC said:


> I wonder if that was not intended to be shown yet. When I go to their site, I don't see those in the scroll, as if they've "fixed" it. I see the currently carried networks (including MTV) but not MTV2 nor BET.


I noticed them earlier today. It's not the scroll on the front page... it's the one in the HD channels section.


----------



## DarinC

kevhow said:


> It's not the scroll on the front page... it's the one in the HD channels section.


My bad... I was looking for it on the "HD Overview" page, and when I couldn't find it, I just wrote it off. Then when I visited again through the main page, I saw THAT scroll, and figured that was the one in question. I see the other one on the "channels" page.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> I made the change, both to have some fun and to honor Sixto for his outstanding efforts. I know how much effort it can be, I did similar for S2 and D10 (and not nearly as well as he's doing.)
> 
> I also thank Lamelefty and ken984 for their excellent help and input.
> 
> Good job guys!
> Tom


I love the name change.

Thank you Sixto for all the information. You've made it fun to track progress.


----------



## curt8403

Radio Enginerd said:


> I love the name change.
> 
> Thank you Sixto for all the information. You've made it fun to track progress.


Yea, Sixto the Hero of the (High Def) resolution.


----------



## loudo

OK, I guess it is time to bring these out, for all of those that just can't wait.










:lol: :grin: :hurah: :slowgrin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

loudo said:


> OK, I guess it is time to bring these out, for all of those that just can't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :grin: :hurah: :slowgrin:


Can someone get that in a 55 gallon drum?  :lol:


----------



## merchione

loudo said:


> OK, I guess it is time to bring these out, for all of those that just can't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :grin: :hurah: :slowgrin:


thats funny Shhhh:lol:


----------



## Smthkd

OK stop pushing that _______ around you Drug dealers!


----------



## harsh

loudo said:


> OK, I guess it is time to bring these out, for all of those that just can't wait.


It has been about a year since those things last hit the streets.


----------



## curt8403

harsh said:


> It has been about a year since those things last hit the streets.


does that mean they are street drugs?


----------



## DodgerKing

curt8403 said:


> does that mean they are street drugs?


Actually, it is generic viagra.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We all do...but then...I'm more of a realist than an optimist...


I'm a guy who's glass is always full. :hurah:


----------



## smiddy

loudo said:


> OK, I guess it is time to bring these out, for all of those that just can't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: :grin: :hurah: :slowgrin:


!rolling That is friggin way kewl man! I need a couple of bottles of those and a beer.


----------



## rey_1178

smiddy said:


> !rolling That is friggin way kewl man! I need a couple of bottles of those and a beer.


LOL!


----------



## merchione

smiddy said:


> !rolling That is friggin way kewl man! I need a couple of bottles of those and a beer.


NICE!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> !rolling That is friggin way kewl man! I need a couple of bottles of those and a beer.


Perhaps we can arrange D11 to send a signal to start up a private I V ...

Boy...streching those :backtotop segways are getting tougher and tougher...


----------



## dbmaven

Tom Robertson said:


> I made the change, both to have some fun and to honor Sixto for his outstanding efforts. I know how much effort it can be, I did similar for S2 and D10 (and not nearly as well as he's doing.)
> 
> I also thank Lamelefty and ken984 for their excellent help and input.
> 
> Good job guys!
> Tom


Hear! HEAR!!

I don't post much (if at all) - but I follow this thread on a daily basis.

Well said, Tom.


----------



## loudo

harsh said:


> It has been about a year since those things last hit the streets.


Yes, they were really popular, just before D10 went live.


----------



## P Smith

:backtotop 
:backtotop 
:backtotop


----------



## smiddy

I just checked, no new TLE yet...


----------



## merchione

P Smith said:


> :backtotop
> :backtotop
> :backtotop


yes please with some news


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> :backtotop
> :backtotop
> :backtotop


This from the poster who also said this:


P Smith said:


> If you idling a litlle bit, would you check E-11 also ?


hmm....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I just checked, no new TLE yet...


The next TLE with some real movement will be <cough>...<cough>...<cough>........ 
hold on.....:eek2:  I am have something in my throat....


----------



## kw2957

Tom Robertson said:


> This from the poster who also said this:
> 
> hmm....


Ohhh, the irony!


----------



## curt8403

kw2957 said:


> Ohhh, the irony!


he has E11 TLEs now. and BTW he is active on both sides (which is cool)


----------



## LameLefty

merchione said:


> yes please with some news


With apologies to _The Matrix_ . . .

There is no news.


----------



## curt8403

LameLefty said:


> With apologies to _The Matrix_ . . .
> 
> There is no news.


maybe so, but No News Unnews and unnews unhappy


----------



## purtman

Sixto, you may want to update post #2. It says it's holding steadying at 100.7.

... Sixto kid ... was a friend of mine ...doo dooo doo doo 
... He updated tle's along the Rio Grande ...doo dooo doo doo


----------



## hdtvfan0001

That's it...I'm staying up all night
to await the next Sixto Report

I just know that.....that....
that there will be another......uh....uh....
update coming along about D11 any time now......

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## smiddy

TLE ME Sixto...[William Shatner Voice and Inflection = ON] Must..get..a..new..T..L..E..Spock, where's Scotty?

[Leonard Nemoy Voice and Inflection = ON]
Captain, he's got a wienie stuck in the warp drive and he can't go no faster!

[Scotty Voice and Inflection = ON]
Aye Cap'n, you gotta wie bit o'mustard?

:lol:


----------



## purtman

Smiddy, I don't think that was Scotty. I believe that was Sulu. LOL!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, don't make me close this thread until Sixto sends me a PM about news...

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, don't make me close this thread until Sixto sends me a PM about news...
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


Agreed....this is a family show...lets keep things "family". 

I decided that with 3 cans of Coke and a good pillow, that would help me stay awake all night to check for the next Sixto Report....

<snoring sound> Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## smiddy

No new TLE...I keep checking though!


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks Tom. There is a watercooler forum for casual chat, after all ... 

(You guys are causing me a lot of time trying to keep up with all these new posts, only to find out there's no "new" in the posts.) 

By the way, to keep this on topic, congrats Sixto on the thread dedication!


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm also ask that there be no more posts "No more TLE's". Sixto does an awesome job, we don't need to tell each other how often we hit F5 on Norad's site.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Yep, all is quiet ... and nothing to report ... last TLE still the same ...

And thanks for all the kudos ... total team effort!


----------



## purtman

Sixto, how often do they update the TLEs? I thought it was daily and I also thought it was sometime around mid-day. However, based on some of the postings here, it seems like some people are expecting more. Is that the case or just a bunch of over-zealous posters? Thanks for a) a great job and b) taking the initiative to update this post.


----------



## MudMover

Sixto:

I know this is a "bit off topic"...and I sincerely apologize...but I've got access to the TLEs....and can get them from the same site (nice site, by the way....I'm an amateur radio operator)....but I can't figure out where you get the below data from. Specifically the longitudinal coordinate. Is that from Space Track too? 

NORAD # 32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A 
Epoch (UTC) 07-15-2008 10:46:32
Orbit # at Epoch	129
Inclination 0.024
RA of A. Node 28.028
Eccentricity 0.0000206
Argument of Perigee	139.142
Revs per day 1.00273620
Period 23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis 42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 787 km
Element number / age	128 / 0 day(s)

Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)
TLE#125(07-08-2008 13:01:34) 35,787 x 35,787 km (+ 5.8 hours,at 110.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#124(07-08-2008 07:15:17) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+47.5 hours,at 110.6 days, 100.71°)
TLE#123(07-06-2008 07:42:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+48.8 hours,at 108.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#122(07-04-2008 06:55:23) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+19.9 hours,at 106.6 days, 100.70°)
TLE#121(07-03-2008 10:59:40) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+46.7 hours,at 105.7 days, 100.70°)
TLE#120(07-01-2008 12:15:56) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+26.4 hours,at 103.8 days, 100.70°)
TLE#119(06-30-2008 09:54:50) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+45.4 hours,at 102.7 days, 100.70°)
TLE#118(06-28-2008 12:32:34) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+27.6 hours,at 100.8 days, 100.70°)


----------



## mgtr

I have been out of contact for several weeks whle traveling. I see that the new news on D11 is no news. I see that the new HD info is no new HD news.
Reminds me of the dizzy blonde who shows up at the baseball game in the 8th inning and asks what is the score? Answer - nothing to nothing. Oh great, she gushes, I haven't missed anything!
Seriously, do we have any basis for forecasting a date when we get new HD on D*? After all, howerver many channels they provide are not enough.
I want Howdy Doody remastered into HD on a 24/7 basis!


----------



## Dolly

mgtr said:


> I have been out of contact for several weeks whle traveling. I see that the new news on D11 is no news. I see that the new HD info is no new HD news.
> Reminds me of the dizzy blonde who shows up at the baseball game in the 8th inning and asks what is the score? Answer - nothing to nothing. Oh great, she gushes, I haven't missed anything!
> Seriously, do we have any basis for forecasting a date when we get new HD on D*? After all, howerver many channels they provide are not enough.
> I want Howdy Doody remastered into HD on a 24/7 basis!


!rolling "I haven't missed anything!" That is great :lol: If this weren't already Sixto's Thread that would be a great title for this thread. When D11 goes live is anyone's guess and believe me there has been plenty of guessing  BTW great technical job Sixto


----------



## Sixto

purtman said:


> Sixto, how often do they update the TLEs? I thought it was daily and I also thought it was sometime around mid-day. However, based on some of the postings here, it seems like some people are expecting more. Is that the case or just a bunch of over-zealous posters? Thanks for a) a great job and b) taking the initiative to update this post.


Thx. TLE's are not released at any regular interval. Sometimes once per day, and sometimes not. Sometimes twice in a day. There have been approximately 129 TLE's in ~124 days. Usually between 10am-2pm ET but not always ... Post #2 shows the exact time between TLE's ...


----------



## Sixto

MudMover said:


> Sixto:
> 
> I know this is a "bit off topic"...and I sincerely apologize...but I've got access to the TLEs....and can get them from the same site (nice site, by the way....I'm an amateur radio operator)....but I can't figure out where you get the below data from. Specifically the longitudinal coordinate. Is that from Space Track too?


The data is from Orbitron.


----------



## Sixto

Will be on the road for next several hours ... watch the store! ... hopeful for another update soon but you never know ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Will be on the road for next several hours ... watch the store! ... hopeful for another update soon but you never know ...


Store watched....but don't be long...


----------



## EricRobins

All these posts remind me of Seinfeld - All about NOTHING.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

EricRobins said:


> All these posts remind me of Seinfeld - All about NOTHING.


Until SOMETHING is activated...then it will be all about ALOT of new HD.


----------



## feschiver

while the Boss is away it is time to move
SIXTO is gone letts watch D11 MOVE:grin:


----------



## Sixto

feschiver said:


> now that SIXTO is gone letts watch D11 MOVE:grin:


Store open ...  ... nothing new ...


----------



## rey_1178

damn!


----------



## merchione

double damn


----------



## smiddy

Drat!


----------



## Sixto

Regular Friday FCC Filing info moments ago ... nothing new DirecTV-wise (only E* 11 & XM):

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1690A1.pdf


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Regular Friday FCC Filing info moments ago ... nothing new DirecTV-wise (only E* 11 & XM):
> 
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1690A1.pdf


Drat.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Drat.


We actually may prefer nothing new FCC-wise.

Just move it to 99.225 (as already filed) and broadcast!

Anything else would be a change most likely ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> We actually may prefer nothing new FCC-wise.
> 
> Just move it to 99.225 (as already filed) and broadcast!
> 
> Anything else would be a change most likely ...


I can live with that.

If that occurs, we'll certainly know very soon....there's that "s" word again....


----------



## Sirshagg




----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


>


...in case you missed my previous reference.... :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the "clarification".  :lol:


----------



## Steve Robertson

I hate that f'n word


----------



## smiddy

Steve Robertson said:


> I hate that f'n word


There is no f in that word.


----------



## Tigerman73

Has D10 been updated since the last 11 update on the 15th? It should be moving soon and if we're blacked out from that it may be in the process like D10 did when it suddenly arrived.


----------



## Steve Robertson

smiddy said:


> There is no f in that word.


Good point my mistake


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve Robertson said:


> Good point my mistake


Sfoon.


----------



## Paul A

It just has to be moving now to its parking spot, it just has to be.


----------



## jefbal99

Paul A said:


> It just has to be moving now to its parking spot, it just has to be.


That's what everyone assumed last weekend when there was a 5 day gap between TLEs...

and its what everyone will still be assuming until Monday when we get a TLE that has it at 100.71 and then another 4 days and bang 100.67 and then another 5 days and 100.69...

Rinse and repeat


----------



## Curtis0620

Since 7/31 is only 13 days away. It has to be soon.


----------



## smiddy

Has there ever been a TLE over the weekend?


----------



## dwrats_56

smiddy said:


> Has there ever been a TLE over the weekend?


Sure, there was even one on a holiday. July 4th and July 6th


----------



## Paul A

jefbal99 said:


> That's what everyone assumed last weekend when there was a 5 day gap between TLEs...
> 
> and its what everyone will still be assuming until Monday when we get a TLE that has it at 100.71 and then another 4 days and bang 100.67 and then another 5 days and 100.69...
> 
> Rinse and repeat


Ya but one of these times I'm going to be right. :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Paul A said:


> Ya but one of these times I'm going to be right. :lol:


I think that's called the "Smiddy Principle".


----------



## syphix

Curtis0620 said:


> Since 7/31 is only 13 days away. It has to be soon.


Why?? Has DirecTV stated that D11 will be "live" on 8/01?

I'm late to the party...why the "July 31st deadline"?


----------



## Sixto

dwrats_56 said:


> Sure, there was even one on a holiday. July 4th and July 6th


The other consideration is that the release of the TLE is sometimes hours after the time stamp of the TLE ... not unusual to have a TLE released with a timestamp from a many hours ago ... very unpredictable ...


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Why?? Has DirecTV stated that D11 will be "live" on 8/01?
> 
> I'm late to the party...why the "July 31st deadline"?


DirecTV has stated "3rd Quarter".

A reliable poster (Satelliteracer) has stated that some new LIL and possibly legacy HD in MPEG4 may appear by the end of this month (See post#2).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> DirecTV has stated "3rd Quarter".
> 
> A reliable poster (Satelliteracer) has stated that some new LIL and possibly legacy HD in MPEG4 may appear by the end of this month (See post#2).


We're gonna sit here awaiting any updates (as usual)....if it gets too late...just send out an e-mail to everyone...my blackberry is set on stun if it hears anything...  :lol:


----------



## HIGHWAY

D11 will be live on 8/6


----------



## henryld

I must admit that I got excited about D10 but some of you people need help.:lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Yes, I resemble that remark...


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, I resemble that remark...


me too


----------



## LameLefty

henryld said:


> I must admit that I got excited about D10 but some of you people need help.:lol:


I'm letting Smiddy and Co. take most of the heat this time - I'm keeping it all inside. :grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I'm letting Smiddy and Co. take most of the heat this time - I'm keeping it all inside. :grin:


Stomach tied in knots....not a pretty picture...not even in HD....


----------



## kevinwmsn

Everybody was excited when D10 was going to go live. We went from having very few HD channels to a bunch of HD channels. I'm excited for D11 coming online, cause I like others want their locals in HD. By searching on forum, there are people here who have problems picking up their locals OTA. Other things we are excited about is getting more premium channels in HD.


----------



## P Smith

Anyone can see where the sat - just click HERE.


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Stomach tied in knots....not a pretty picture...not even in HD....


You had better hope that the stomach x-rays are HD.


----------



## DodgerKing

HIGHWAY said:


> D11 will be live on 8/6


This a guess or do you know something we don't?


----------



## henryld

kevinwmsn said:


> Everybody was excited when D10 was going to go live. We went from having very few HD channels to a bunch of HD channels. I'm excited for D11 coming online, cause I like others want their locals in HD. By searching on forum, there are people here who have problems picking up their locals OTA. Other things we are excited about is getting more premium channels in HD.


Your excused...


----------



## Drew2k

Curtis0620 said:


> Since 7/31 is only 13 days away. It has to be soon.





syphix said:


> Why?? Has DirecTV stated that D11 will be "live" on 8/01?
> 
> I'm late to the party...why the "July 31st deadline"?





Sixto said:


> DirecTV has stated "3rd Quarter".
> 
> A reliable poster (Satelliteracer) has stated that some new LIL and possibly legacy HD in MPEG4 may appear by the end of this month (See post#2).


Third quarter ends 8/31, not 7/31.


----------



## Sirshagg

Drew2k said:


> Third quarter ends 8/31, not 7/31.


:scratch: Uuuuuhh - you want to rethink that?


----------



## JLucPicard

Drew2k said:


> Third quarter ends 8/31, not 7/31.





Sirshagg said:


> :scratch: Uuuuuhh - you want to rethink that?


Third quarter on my calendar ends 9/30. CRAP - am I using the wrong calendar again???


----------



## Drew2k

Q1 = Jan, Feb, Mar
Q2 = Apr, May, Jun
Q3 = Jul, Aug, Sep
Q4 = Oct, Nov, Dec

Would you look at that!

Ok, so I just didn't want Sixto to feel bad. 

Yea, yeah, that's it.


----------



## Sixto

Drew2k said:


> Q1 = Jan, Feb, Mar
> Q2 = Apr, May, Jun
> Q3 = Jul, Aug, Sep
> Q4 = Oct, Nov, Dec
> 
> Would you look at that!
> 
> Ok, so I just didn't want Sixto to feel bad.
> 
> Yea, yeah, that's it.


yep, official line from DirecTV was 3rd quarter (by 9/30) while Satelliteracer hint was 7/31 ... I'm betting closer to 7/31 then 9/30.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think that's called the "Smiddy Principle".


Hey, I resemble that remark, especially when DirecTV 11 is concerned. 

EDIT: Crap, I sound like Tom (see above), god forbid. :eek2:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> yep, official line from DirecTV was 3rd quarter (by 9/30) while Satelliteracer hint was 7/31 ... I'm betting closer to 7/31 then 9/30.


Still thinking 8/4/08....we'll see. We may see D11 get parked next week though...have to keep watching the nightly Sixto report. 


smiddy said:


> Hey, I resemble that remark, especially when DirecTV 11 is concerned.


D11 and Smiddy are only a transponder apart....


----------



## syphix

DodgerKing said:


> This a guess or do you know something we don't?


I believe he's guessing...a good guess based on speculation on this forum: 8/6/08 is the first Wednesday (historically the day that DirecTV turns channels on) after 8/1.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Anyone can see where the sat - just click HERE.


If only they were as up to date as Sixto!


----------



## dennisj00

Is DirecTVs 3rd quarter on calendar?


----------



## Jeremy W

dennisj00 said:


> Is DirecTVs 3rd quarter on calendar?


No, but they're referring to the calendar year not their fiscal year. DirecTV's fiscal year runs from October 1st to September 30th, so we're in their fiscal Q4 right now.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Another day....another TLE.


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Another day....another TLE.


or lack there of


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV's fiscal year runs from October 1st to September 30th, so we're in their fiscal Q4 right now.


The DirecTV Group, Inc. fiscal year runs January 1st through December 31st.

The quarter calendar is as Drew2k described.


----------



## utbronco

Sorry to be a dunce and I'm sure that somewhere here my ?? is answered.
What will the Satellite designation be on my HD receiver for D11. Thanks!!


----------



## davring

I believe it will be 99c.


----------



## Paul A

Odds that a TLE today will show D11 in its parking spot = 99.225%

Odds for new HD by:

Wed 7-23 5%
Wed 7-30 40%
Wed 8-6 40%
Wed 8-13 10%
Wed 8-20 5%


----------



## harsh

Paul A said:


> Odds that a TLE today will show D11 in its parking spot = 99.225%


I want some of what you're smokin'.

The satellite has to move much more decisively than TLE #128 suggests just to get where it is going; much less park there.

ps: your "odds" should be additive as you used the term "by". If you had used the term "on", your table would be more appropriate.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

utbronco said:


> Sorry to be a dunce and I'm sure that somewhere here my ?? is answered.
> What will the Satellite designation be on my HD receiver for D11. Thanks!!





davring said:


> I believe it will be 99c.


On the HR2x's it will be 99c.

On the H2x's it will be 99a.


----------



## davring

Michael D'Angelo;1687057 said:


> On the HR2x's it will be 99c.
> 
> On the H2x's it will be 99a.


Forgot they still make non-DVR tuners


----------



## purtman

harsh said:


> The satellite has to move much more decisively than TLE #128 suggests just to get where it is going; much less park there.


We don't know where it was on July 12 through 14. That move in TLE#128 could be much more decisively than you think.


----------



## HIGHWAY

DodgerKing said:


> This a guess or do you know something we don't?


this is a guess but directv is going to have more locals in hd in august. this from directv. they need d11 for this.


----------



## nd bronco fan

HIGHWAY said:


> this is a guess but directv is going to have more locals in hd in august. this from directv. they need d11 for this.


Will D11 allow them to address any of the markets that they are currently not carrying any locals in with the added capacity? Such as Bismarck, North Dakota. Or is it not a capacity issue and they are just not planning on carrying any here.


----------



## harsh

purtman said:


> That move in TLE#128 could be much more decisively than you think.


TLEs are not snapshots. They are a complex equation designed to predict the motion of a satellite. With each burn, there _should be_ a new TLE issued forecasting the movement of the satellite as a result of the burn.

Absent a new TLE, it is not unreasonable to assume that there haven't been any changes to the orbital model.


----------



## harsh

nd bronco fan said:


> Will D11 allow them to address any of the markets that they are currently not carrying any locals in with the added capacity? Such as Bismarck, North Dakota. Or is it not a capacity issue and they are just not planning on carrying any here.


Given that DIRECTV doesn't carry your SD LILs, it is safe to assume that it is a bandwidth cost/benefit issue today. The three dollars that they don't get from each subscriber in your DMA probably doesn't cover the cost.

Only DIRECTV knows for sure whether they plan on carrying your LIL. Representatives at your local stations may be willing to tell you if they've been in negotiations.

Being ranked #158 out of 210 doesn't bode well, but there are eight smaller markets already served (of which two are federally mandated).


----------



## l8er

harsh said:


> .... Absent a new TLE, it is not unreasonable to assume that there haven't been any changes to the orbital model.


 From past history (D10) it is also not unreasonable to assume there have been satellite changes with no corresponding TLE being issued. But then again, perhaps it is best to assume nothing.


----------



## Jon D

harsh said:


> TLEs are not snapshots. They are a complex equation designed to predict the motion of a satellite. With each burn, there _should be_ a new TLE issued forecasting the movement of the satellite as a result of the burn.
> 
> Absent a new TLE, it is not unreasonable to assume that there haven't been any changes to the orbital model.


Yeah. Like like with D10. Oh. Wait..


----------



## Matt9876

Jon D said:


> Yeah. Like like with D10. Oh. Wait..


Yeah I'm not falling for it this time

Just wait till Sixto says it's parked and then I'll get excited.:grin:


----------



## JayPSU

What makes sense to me that would correlate what we've heard from those "in the know" is that D11 will start heading back this week and be parked by the beginning of next week. Then they can start loading some of the mpeg 4 versions of channels we already have, and then on July 30th they can go live for us. Then August 6th they might start adding more locals and nationals. To me, this sounds like the best guess of a time table.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

JayPSU said:


> What makes sense to me that would correlate what we've heard from those "in the know" is that D11 will start heading back this week and be parked by the beginning of next week. Then they can start loading some of the mpeg 4 versions of channels we already have, and then on July 30th they can go live for us. Then August 6th they might start adding more locals and nationals. To me, this sounds like the best guess of a time table.


Other than using August 4th instead of August 6th...that's pretty much been my estimate - but based on not having any TLE's to support the specific "parking" date...that's speculation on my part.


----------



## mbuser

JayPSU said:


> What makes sense to me that would correlate what we've heard from those "in the know" is that D11 will start heading back this week and be parked by the beginning of next week.


I've been following this thread for the past couple of weeks, but have seen no statements like that, only lots of conjecture.


----------



## LameLefty

mbuser said:


> I've been following this thread for the past couple of weeks, but have seen no statements like that, only lots of conjecture.


No, you're seeing informed supposition based on comments from people who, based on past history (e.g., Satelliteracer) really DO know what's going on. There's a difference.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> No, you're seeing informed supposition based on comments from people who, based on past history (e.g., Satelliteracer) really DO know what's going on. There's a difference.


Of course...that excludes me...I couldn't tell a TLE from a toaster.  :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course...that excludes me...I couldn't tell a TLE from a toaster.  :lol:


Toaster?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> Toaster?


Thanks. Now I see...

Good thing I'm not trying to point D11 in the right direction.  :lol:


----------



## ohpuckhead

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course...that excludes me...I couldn't tell a TLE from a toaster.  :lol:


I'm not reading 175 pages.....what IS a TLE?:read:


----------



## syphix

TLE: Two Line Elements

Two lines of numbers that indicate the position and orbit info of an item tracked by NORAD.

Latest TLE for DirecTV 11:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE128)
1 32729U 08013A   08197.44898760 -.00000108  00000-0  10000-3 0  1284
2 32729 000.0241 028.0282 0000206 139.1417 187.4379 01.00273620  1290

Some info can be seen in the numbers themselves, but a program like Orbitron helps see what the satellite is doing and where it is.


----------



## Dave

My (PREDICTION) for todays location of D11 is, it is at the area of 100.66 still. Just my good faith guess for today.


----------



## doctor j

No TLE in 5 days!
Only one in 9 days?
Certainly peculiar!?

Doctor j


----------



## l8er

Dave said:


> My (PREDICTION) for todays location of D11 is, it is at the area of 100.66 still. Just my good faith guess for today.


n2yo.com already has it speeding past 100.64.


----------



## Dave

n2yo has had it in that approx location for 5 to 6 days. It isn't speeding to anywhere right now.


----------



## PoitNarf

Dave said:


> n2yo has had it in that approx location for 5 to 6 days. It isn't speeding to anywhere *relative to the earth* right now.


I fixed your statement


----------



## Dave

Thank You PoitNarf,

I like everyone here would love for D11 to be moving to 99.2. But right now it is not. I am also like everyone here waiting on more HD from DirectV. But they have there own schedule and are not letting anyone here in on it. I am holding to my predition of D11 going on line to the masses as Sept. 3, 2008. I do hope it is sooner rather than later. But right now I am sticking to my prediction. 
Yes I do wish it would happen tomorrow just as everyone on here does.


----------



## DarinC

Dave said:


> I like everyone here would love for D11 to be moving to 99.2. But right now it is not.


I don't see how you can determine that. N2YO is anything but live. They just make predictions based on the same TLEs everyone else has, and we all know there hasn't been a new one in days. N2YO is useful for satellites that are operating under their normal path, but not for ones that are changing course.


----------



## l8er

Dave said:


> n2yo has had it in that approx location for 5 to 6 days.


 Not true. It was at 100.66 early in the week, 100.65 about midweek and now at 100.64 for the past couple of days. The speeding comment was tongue in cheek. The numbers I quote are correct, because I've been home with a fractured neck 24/7 and have been logging the numbers for the past 2 weeks.


----------



## purtman

l8er said:


> Not true. It was at 100.66 early in the week, 100.65 about midweek and now at 100.64 for the past couple of days. The speeding comment was tongue in cheek. The numbers I quote are correct, because I've been home with a fractured neck 24/7 and have been logging the numbers for the past 2 weeks.


Is that avatar the picture of you breaking your neck? Just kidding, of course. Hope you get better soon.


----------



## Tom Robertson

l8er said:


> Not true. It was at 100.66 early in the week, 100.65 about midweek and now at 100.64 for the past couple of days. The speeding comment was tongue in cheek. The numbers I quote are correct, because I've been home with a fractured neck 24/7 and have been logging the numbers for the past 2 weeks.


May you be healed soon! How about both you healed and D11 parked, like tomorrow? 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## l8er

Tom Robertson said:


> May you be healed soon! How about both you healed and D11 parked, like tomorrow?


 I'm ready, but how 'bout D11?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alas, I honestly do not know. 

Some data points from the past: DIRECTV has been known to drift satellites at .1°/day tho D11 drifted to 100.7° at a bit over .2°/day. So in roughly 6 days from the start, D11 could be home. 

Lets hope it started 5 days ago 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Lets hope it started 5 days ago


Sure hope so ... 

Nothing new ... hopefully tomorrow ...

P.S. Also been no TLE updates for D10 either (since 7/16).


----------



## Drew2k

Thanks Sixto. I really hope we can all just be patient and wait for some good news from our good friends monitoring the TLEs.


----------



## gewi

For what it is worth, my local video store was told Mobile, AL would get HD locals on September 17.


----------



## kevinwmsn

gewi,

Where did you hear that one from? I've emailed the local channels and they don't know anything about a launch date. We were also told in 2006 we would have HD locals.


----------



## smiddy

I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.


----------



## kw2957

smiddy said:


> I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.


!!!!

Regarding what???

This is exciting me! Thanks Smiddy!


----------



## JLucPicard

smiddy said:


> I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.





kw2957 said:


> !!!!
> Regarding what???
> This is exciting me! Thanks Smiddy!


I would take a closer look at the smiley at the end of his post. Does it mean anything, or doesn't it?


----------



## purtman

smiddy said:


> I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.


where will we find this?


----------



## Paul A

I know, I know...

The sun will come out, tomorrow, bet your botton dollar, come what may...

Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away.


Where's Eagle PC when you need him??? I hope he's monitoring the Transponders..

It's getting real close!!!


We're going on a trip, We're going on a trip. It's thrilling to be filling with such wide anticipation. 

Packing the suitcases, and counting all the daysez. Nearly as exciting as the actual vacation.

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? My excitement is getting stronger... 
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I really cant wait much longer...

Moose A Moose, D11, and Zee


----------



## harsh

Paul A said:


> It's getting real close!!!


The latest TLE doesn't bear that out. It is forecast to be many miles away and moving at a relative snail's pace. If you look back a few pages, I believe Sixto ran the model out a couple of months at the current course and speed to get to the destination.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> The latest TLE doesn't bear that out. It is forecast to be many miles away and moving at a relative snail's pace. If you look back a few pages, I believe Sixto ran the model out a couple of months at the current course and speed to get to the destination.


The problem is that the latest TLE isn't very recent so we have no idea if there has been no recent maneuvers or if D11 has been maneuvered into place during an unusually long period of no TLEs, the same as what happened with D10.


----------



## EaglePC

nothing new ha


----------



## Drew2k

smiddy said:


> I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.


You're making an announcement? A company is making an announcement? Where should one look for said announcement?


----------



## bleggett29

EaglePC said:


> nothing new ha


are we close?? just done a signal test on my hr21.
i see 14 transponders at 99c. all are at 0% but am I seeing d11?


----------



## CoachGibbs

bleggett29 said:


> are we close?? just done a signal test on my hr21.
> i see 14 transponders at 99c. all are at 0% but am I seeing d11?


I was actually seeing a signal from transponder 5 for like 30 seconds on 99c and then it dissapeared. I haven't been paying much attention lately, so I don't know if this has been happening for a while now or not.


----------



## Grydlok

99C is showing up. All zeros but showing up. We are close.


----------



## Grydlok

bleggett29 said:


> are we close?? just done a signal test on my hr21.
> i see 14 transponders at 99c. all are at 0% but am I seeing d11?


This is the same thing that happen when D10 moved into place.


----------



## RobertE

Grydlok said:


> 99C is showing up. All zeros but showing up. We are close.


Same here. 99c is now on the HR20-700.


----------



## The Scotsman

CoachGibbs said:


> I was actually seeing a signal from transponder 5 for like 30 seconds on 99c and then it dissapeared. I haven't been paying much attention lately, so I don't know if this has been happening for a while now or not.


I am also seeing 14 transponders on 99(c) with 0% on all. Very encouraging.


----------



## say-what

Oh yeah, 99(c) showing with 14 transponders in my signal tests also - now to get signals instead of 0's


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

I just check via my Slingbox from work and I too have 99(c).


----------



## MIAMI1683

Michael D'Angelo;1688617 said:


> I just check via my Slingbox from work and I too have 99(c).


 Dam i need a slingbox. I am already at work :nono2: . Come on D11.


----------



## purtman

Smiddy, what's the announcement?


----------



## syphix

I see no reason why 99(c) would show up with 14 transponders if D11 was NOT in place... 

But I'm just a lowly thread lurker, so what do I know?... 

If history shows (i.e., D10), D11 is parked (or nearly parked) at home and ready to go within days (read: 7-14 days).


----------



## bjamin82

99c showing in South Florida...


----------



## LameLefty

Well, now THIS is progress!


----------



## TimGoodwin

Cool! Nothing better then more, and more HD!


----------



## Indiana627

bjamin82 said:


> 99c showing in South Florida...


That's a BEAUTIFUL picture!


----------



## Hdhead

Gotta love the number ZERO!


----------



## TimGoodwin

Hdhead said:


> Gotta love the number ZERO!


I also would love to see a few high 90's in there too!!


----------



## richall01

My H20-600 is now showing 99(a) and 99(b) all 0's


----------



## fingerstyle

Real novice.....what does it mean that Satellite 99c shows up in the signal test?


----------



## feschiver

Zero is a placement number isnt it


----------



## loudo

fingerstyle said:


> Real novice.....what does it mean that Satellite 99c shows up in the signal test?


It is probably not an actual signal from the satellite, but a software upgrade adding it to the signal strength software, in our receivers. But it is a good sign, of things to come.


----------



## syphix

I'd MUCH rather see this...










But 0's will do for now!


----------



## katzeye

I've got it too.
Even if it is just from the software, at least it means things are happening!


----------



## bjamin82

loudo said:


> It is probably not an actual signal from the satellite, but a software upgrade adding it to the signal strength software, in our receivers. But it is a good sign, of things to come.


Not necessarily... I am running on a software version from June... so no software update. And 99c wasn't there two days ago... I usually check every few days.


----------



## Grydlok

syphix said:


> I'd MUCH rather see this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But 0's will do for now!


Actually if you got 99 on all 14 transponders you would have a problem. So I don't really think you would want that.


----------



## katzeye

bjamin82 said:


> Not necessarily... I am running on a software version from June... so no software update. And 99c wasn't there two days ago... I usually check every few days.


I did just check the signal meter and got no signal....


----------



## syphix

Grydlok said:


> Actually if you got 99 on all 14 transponders you would have a problem. So I don't really think you would want that.


Explain why...99(c) is a CONUS, not spotbeams. Why wouldn't I want high signal on all the CONUS beams? I currently get 90+ on all available transponders of 103(c) with no ill effects...


----------



## loudo

bjamin82 said:


> Not necessarily... I am running on a software version from June... so no software update. And 99c wasn't there two days ago... I usually check every few days.


Channels and satellites can be added on daily updates. I was referring those software updates, not to system software updates.


----------



## LameLefty

loudo said:


> Channels and satellites can be added on daily updates. I was referring those software updates, not to system software updates.


That's an update in the Guide data, basically telling the box which satellites to show or hide in the signal test screens.


----------



## bjamin82

LameLefty said:


> That's an update in the Guide data, basically telling the box which satellites to show or hide in the signal test screens.


Good to know.


----------



## Grydlok

syphix said:


> Explain why...99c is a CONUS, not spotbeams. Why wouldn't I want high signal on all the CONUS beams?


It not possible. 99 all across the board would mean a hardware problem.


----------



## bjamin82

Grydlok said:


> It not possible. 99 all across the board would mean a hardware problem.


Why isn't it possible? I am not following... Are you strictly talking about 99c? or from any sat?


----------



## jefbal99

Holy crap, i never thought it would get there....

Too bad I'm at work and can't see it for myself...

I know that 99a/c wasn't there yesterday because I was finishing a re-wiring job on my coax and checked all my signals.

Sixto, any TLEs showing it parked?


----------



## Grydlok

bjamin82 said:


> Why isn't it possible? I am not following... Are you strictly talking about 99c? or from any sat?


Any sat. Different transponders give off varying signal strengths depending where you are in the country. You would prefer a signal range.


----------



## woj027

i have a 98 on transponder 2 the rest are zeros on 99(c). roughly 05:37 Pacific Std Time

well by the time I typed this it has now become "Had" a 98 on transponder 2 on 99 (c). Nothing there now.

Any suggestions what channels we might be looking at for first signs of life?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

loudo said:


> It is probably not an actual signal from the satellite, but a software upgrade adding it to the signal strength software, in our receivers. But it is a good sign, of things to come.





LameLefty said:


> That's an update in the Guide data, basically telling the box which satellites to show or hide in the signal test screens.


Agreed that they probably just activated it to see if they got the confirmation to turn on the reception when its ready. Its a good sign, but an early one.


MIAMI1683 said:


> Dam i need a slingbox. I am already at work :nono2: . Come on D11.


Yes...you do.

Before I got mine, I wondered why I needed one, and now I have used it for all sorts of things since. Have it on the work laptop right now.

This is all another routine interim step, before we see D11 activated for real. Good news indeed.


----------



## MIAMI1683

woj027 said:


> i have a 98 on transponder 2 the rest are zeros on 99(c). roughly 05:37 Pacific Std Time
> 
> well by the time I typed this it has now become "Had" a 98 on transponder 2 on 99 (c). Nothing there now.
> 
> Any suggestions what channels we might be looking at for first signs of life?


 I think we are looking for readings on all the transponders first. That should be a sign of life.


----------



## LameLefty

MIAMI1683 said:


> I think we are looking for readings on all the transponders first. That should be a sign of life.


Confirmed, repeatable readings on _any_ of them will be a sign of life. We had a similar situation with D10 . . . mostly zeros except for one or two that came on for anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours, with signals varying all over the place as I recall.


----------



## Hdhead

Are the transponders designated with n/a to be used for spotbeams?


----------



## PhilS

I bet we'll see a couple of channels in HD for the Olympic Games coverage within two weeks.


----------



## MIAMI1683

PhilS said:


> I bet we'll see a couple of channels in HD for the Olympic Games coverage within two weeks.


 Not sure about that, but you never know. When D10 lit, we had "test channels" for a while. This helped them "fine tune" the signals. I would bet we get Encore HD and the announcement that the MPEG-2 feeds are going to be shut down and the date first.


----------



## LameLefty

Hdhead said:


> Are the transponders designated with n/a to be used for spotbeams?


No. Spotbeam transponders show up on the 99(s) ("s" for spotbeam) page of signal readings. These are just the national beams expected from D11. "N/a" readings may be replaced with real numbers if D11 lights up more transponders or may be reserved for later use with D12 - only Directv knows for sure and of course, they're not telling.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

YES, more HD coming soon!!! 

I woke up yesterday and my blue lights were lit up, so my unit did a reset sometime Saturday night, I wonder if this has something to do with it? Hmmmm......


----------



## LameLefty

theratpatrol said:


> YES, more HD coming soon!!!
> 
> I woke up yesterday and my blue lights were lit up, so my unit did a reset sometime Saturday night, I wonder if this has something to do with it? Hmmmm......


Nope. My boxes haven't reset since last weekend's CEs so a reset this past weekend is coincidental.


----------



## FHSPSU67

No more doubts - New CE S/W is not required for acquisition of a new Satellite.


----------



## Sixto

Great progress this morning.

Yep, 99(c) showing up. All zeros so far.

No TLE update yet, but with 99(c) showing up it must be close, very close!


----------



## Tiger62

theratpatrol said:


> YES, more HD coming soon!!!
> 
> I woke up yesterday and my blue lights were lit up, so my unit did a reset sometime Saturday night, I wonder if this has something to do with it? Hmmmm......


My blue lights lit up this morning at 7:30 AM CDT but software is still 0X255. (HR21-100)

Now, @8:10 AM, it's re-setting again. Puzzling.

At 8:17, it seems to be stuck on "Just a few more seconds". I'm going to do a RBR.


----------



## texasbrit

FYI on my H21 D11 is showing as satellite 99(a), on my DVRs it's 99(c). Zero signals on all 14 transponders.


----------



## syphix

EXPERTS: what is the turnaround time from parking to delivering new HD channels? Since D11 is identical to D10, would the turnaround time be shorter?


----------



## katzeye

So does anyone actually (officially or technically) know if this is correlated to the satellite or software?


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> EXPERTS: what is the turnaround time from parking to delivering new HD channels? Since D11 is identical to D10, would the turnaround time be shorter?


D11 Could go "live" by 7/30 if all transponders started transmitting today, certainly by 8/6 or the original rumor of 8/13.

D11 originally was to go "live" within 10 days, but got pushed back a week due to unrelated issue. 7/30 is doable.


----------



## bjamin82

LameLefty said:


> No. Spotbeam transponders show up on the 99(s) ("s" for spotbeam) page of signal readings. These are just the national beams expected from D11. "N/a" readings may be replaced with real numbers if D11 lights up more transponders or may be reserved for later use with D12 - only Directv knows for sure and of course, they're not telling.


I thought 99s was from one of the Spaceways? Are they going to be from both?


----------



## DarinC

syphix said:


> Since D11 is identical to D10, would the turnaround time be shorter?


If nothing else, I would think turnaround would be shorter simply because it's already been to 99 once, tested, sent to 101, tested some more, then sent back to 99. Granted, the testing @ 101 was unrelated to it's service @ 99, but at this point, most of the operational aspects of the satellite should be well tested by now.


----------



## Sixto

katzeye said:


> So does anyone actually (officially or technically) know if this is correlated to the satellite or software?


It's the signal strength readings for D11. The screens were turned on via software (guide data). Next step is to receive "live" transponder signals.


----------



## dettxw

Sorry if this has already been posted....

*Boeing delivers 4th High-Definition TV satellite to DIRECTV

Space & Intelligence Systems today announced that DIRECTV Inc. has taken on-orbit delivery of the DIRECTV 11 satellite, which will continue to expand DIRECTV's industry-leading lineup of high-definition television channels and services to millions of households in the United States.

Sea Launch launched DIRECTV 11 on March 19 on a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket from the launch services company's equatorial launch site in the Pacific Ocean. (Boeing is a 40 percent partner in Sea Launch.) The newest spacecraft in DIRECTV's fleet will begin transmitting additional national high-definition signals for the nation's leading satellite TV provider, and expand DIRECTV's HD platform to up to 150 national channels and local HD channels in well over 100 markets by this fall.

"The Boeing and DIRECTV teams worked together to ensure that this satellite and its systems are ready to begin broadcasting television programs in high definition into homes throughout the United States," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "The spacecraft was handed over eight days ahead of schedule, and we are pleased to have a role in assisting DIRECTV with the expansion of their service to customers."

DIRECTV 11 is the fourth Ka-band Boeing 702 satellite built for DIRECTV at Boeing's satellite manufacturing facility in El Segundo, Calif. The facility encompasses approximately 1,000,000 square feet and is the largest state-of-the-art dedicated satellite factory in the world.*


----------



## Sixto

bjamin82 said:


> I thought 99s was from one of the Spaceways? Are they going to be from both?


99(c) is D11.

99(s) was Spaceway-2 and will also be D11. Sharing. Different spot beams though.


----------



## oldengineer

I'm getting 96 0 95 24 56 0 on the 6 spots on 99s. Is this significant?


----------



## katzeye

Dettxw- I hadn't seen that yet. When was that dated?


----------



## bjamin82

Sixto said:


> 99(c) is D11.
> 
> 99(s) was Spaceway-2 and will also be D11. Sharing. Different spot beams though.


Got It... Is there a thread somewhere that maps position to sat? i.e 99c=D11.... I have been looking for one on here but haven't found it.


----------



## msmith

oldengineer said:


> I'm getting 96 0 95 24 56 0 on the 6 spots on 99s. Is this significant?


No. That's a different satellite, which has been there for quiet a while.


----------



## Sixto

oldengineer said:


> I'm getting 96 0 95 24 56 0 on the 6 spots on 99s. Is this significant?


That's most likely Spaceway-2.

We're waiting on 99(c) to verify D11. 99(s) is shared by Spaceway-2 and D11.


----------



## Sixto

bjamin82 said:


> Got It... Is there a thread somewhere that maps position to sat? i.e 99c=D11.... I have been looking for one on here but haven't found it.


Smiddy recently started a thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133540

(c) is CONUS - national HD

(s) is Spotbeam - Local-in-Local (LIL)


----------



## jefbal99

dettxw said:


> Sorry if this has already been posted....
> 
> *Boeing delivers 4th High-Definition TV satellite to DIRECTV
> 
> Space & Intelligence Systems today announced that DIRECTV Inc. has taken on-orbit delivery of the DIRECTV 11 satellite, which will continue to expand DIRECTV's industry-leading lineup of high-definition television channels and services to millions of households in the United States.
> 
> Sea Launch launched DIRECTV 11 on March 19 on a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket from the launch services company's equatorial launch site in the Pacific Ocean. (Boeing is a 40 percent partner in Sea Launch.) The newest spacecraft in DIRECTV's fleet will begin transmitting additional national high-definition signals for the nation's leading satellite TV provider, and expand DIRECTV's HD platform to up to 150 national channels and local HD channels in well over 100 markets by this fall.
> 
> "The Boeing and DIRECTV teams worked together to ensure that this satellite and its systems are ready to begin broadcasting television programs in high definition into homes throughout the United States," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "The spacecraft was handed over eight days ahead of schedule, and we are pleased to have a role in assisting DIRECTV with the expansion of their service to customers."
> 
> DIRECTV 11 is the fourth Ka-band Boeing 702 satellite built for DIRECTV at Boeing's satellite manufacturing facility in El Segundo, Calif. The facility encompasses approximately 1,000,000 square feet and is the largest state-of-the-art dedicated satellite factory in the world.*


Do you have a link to this Press Release?


----------



## Sixto

jefbal99 said:


> Do you have a link to this Press Release?


Nothing today on Yahoo or DirecTV web-site or Boeing web-site ...

Edit: press release just appeared at 9:45am ET


----------



## BlueSnake

Does anyone know if D11 is actually parked in it's final spot yet?


----------



## jefbal99

BlueSnake said:


> Does anyone know if D11 is actually parked in it's final spot yet?


Reading the press release, I would assume yes, but no TLE to confirm it


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Nothing today on Yahoo or DirecTV web-site or Boeing web-site ...


It's listed at the top of this page:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/

But the link is broken. I suspect someone posted something a little bit early. 

EDITED: nevermind, the link works again.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html



> Boeing Delivers 4th High-Definition TV Satellite to DIRECTV
> 
> ST. LOUIS, July 21, 2008 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today announced that DIRECTV Inc. has taken on-orbit delivery of the DIRECTV 11 satellite, which will continue to expand DIRECTV's industry-leading lineup of high-definition television channels and services to millions of households in the United States.
> 
> Sea Launch launched DIRECTV 11 March 19 on a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket from the launch services company's equatorial launch site in the Pacific Ocean. (Boeing is a 40 percent partner in Sea Launch.) The newest spacecraft in DIRECTV's fleet will begin transmitting additional national high-definition signals for the nation's leading satellite TV provider, and expand DIRECTV's HD platform to up to 150 national channels and local HD channels in well over 100 markets by this fall.
> 
> "The Boeing and DIRECTV teams worked together to ensure that this satellite and its systems are ready to begin broadcasting television programs in high definition into homes throughout the United States," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "The spacecraft was handed over eight days ahead of schedule, and we are pleased to have a role in assisting DIRECTV with the expansion of their service to customers."
> 
> DIRECTV 11 is the fourth Ka-band Boeing 702 satellite built for DIRECTV at Boeing's satellite manufacturing facility in El Segundo, Calif. The facility encompasses approximately 1 million square feet and is the largest state-of-the-art dedicated satellite factory in the world.
> A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32.1 billion business with 71,000 employees worldwide.
> ###


----------



## Sixto

BlueSnake said:


> Does anyone know if D11 is actually parked in it's final spot yet?


No, nothing official.

Been no NORAD (TLE) update since 7/15/2008.

Hopeful of an update today!

Or we may see a signal first!


----------



## katzeye

BlueSnake said:


> Does anyone know if D11 is actually parked in it's final spot yet?


We're all waiting it find out... No one knows...
I don't remember how many days since the last TLE.
Either way, it should be very soon.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> It's listed at the top of this page:
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/
> 
> But the link is broken. I suspect someone posted something a little bit early.


Ha. Wasn't there 5 minutes ago. They must be updating the link now.


----------



## syphix

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html

Works just fine now. 

Is that "official" enough?


----------



## katzeye

jefbal99 said:


> Reading the press release, I would assume yes, but no TLE to confirm it


Doesn't Boeing do all of the "flying" of the satellite?
If so, the handover would dictate that the satellite is parked.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html
> 
> Works just fine now.
> 
> Is that "official" enough?


Yep.

D11 must be at 99.225. They wouldn't have a press release if it didn't move.

Awaiting TLE update and signal readings ...


----------



## waynebtx

Got all 0 on 99c here in South Texas.


----------



## Sixto

katzeye said:


> Doesn't Boeing do all of the "flying" of the satellite?
> If so, the handover would dictate that the satellite is parked.


Yes, you would assume so but we await confirmation ...


----------



## merchione

dettxw said:


> Sorry if this has already been posted....
> 
> *Boeing delivers 4th High-Definition TV satellite to DIRECTV
> 
> Space & Intelligence Systems today announced that DIRECTV Inc. has taken on-orbit delivery of the DIRECTV 11 satellite, which will continue to expand DIRECTV's industry-leading lineup of high-definition television channels and services to millions of households in the United States.
> 
> Sea Launch launched DIRECTV 11 on March 19 on a Sea Launch Zenit-3SL rocket from the launch services company's equatorial launch site in the Pacific Ocean. (Boeing is a 40 percent partner in Sea Launch.) The newest spacecraft in DIRECTV's fleet will begin transmitting additional national high-definition signals for the nation's leading satellite TV provider, and expand DIRECTV's HD platform to up to 150 national channels and local HD channels in well over 100 markets by this fall.
> 
> "The Boeing and DIRECTV teams worked together to ensure that this satellite and its systems are ready to begin broadcasting television programs in high definition into homes throughout the United States," said Craig Cooning, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "The spacecraft was handed over eight days ahead of schedule, and we are pleased to have a role in assisting DIRECTV with the expansion of their service to customers."
> 
> DIRECTV 11 is the fourth Ka-band Boeing 702 satellite built for DIRECTV at Boeing's satellite manufacturing facility in El Segundo, Calif. The facility encompasses approximately 1,000,000 square feet and is the largest state-of-the-art dedicated satellite factory in the world.*


Nice thanks! here we go people!!!!!!


----------



## Sixto

Let's not post any more satellite signal strength readings until someone has a signal other then zero on one of the transponders at 99(c) ...

For a HR2x, there now should be zeros for transponders 1-14 for 99(c). Only post if you have something different.


----------



## BlueSnake

I saw an 88 for a few seconds on transponder 8 of 99c. Then it went away.


----------



## DodgerKing

Scott, from satelliteguys, says he has official confirmation that D11 is officially parked.


----------



## BlueSnake

Currently 89 on transponder 8 of 99c:hurah:

Gone again. Guess it will be spotty.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sounds like you guys are finally seeing the wait come to an end ..


----------



## GP245

Real Time Satellite Tracking is showing D11 is currently at 100.64 degrees,


----------



## DarinC

Which just goes to show how "real" that is. :sure:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Sounds like you guys are finally seeing the wait come to an end ..


...almost...

Then there's the "what channels will be lit up" and "which channels will be first" and finally the "what channels are still coming" phases..... :lol:


----------



## jefbal99

GP245 said:


> Real Time Satellite Tracking is showing D11 is currently at 100.64 degrees,


n2yo is behind, its based off the latest TLE that was 7/15...

The next TLE will have the updated location


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Good stuff! Too bad I'm at work and can't see all the 0's...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

GP245 said:


> Real Time Satellite Tracking is showing D11 is currently at 100.64 degrees,


If you're referring to n2yo, that is not "real time"...


----------



## Doug Brott

GP245 said:


> Real Time Satellite Tracking is showing D11 is currently at 100.64 degrees,


That "real-time" is just a calculation based on the same data Sixto has been watching .. which hasn't been available since 7/15.


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, just a reminder, any "real-time tracking" type site like n2yo is NOT "real-time!" They are using the same NORAD/Space Command two-line orbital element sets that the rest of us are and propagating them into the present - the "current" public TLEs are about 6 days and counting out-of-date, so the tracking sites are NOT a reliable source unless the element sets are current.


----------



## Doug Brott

LameLefty said:


> Okay, just a reminder, any "real-time tracking" type site like n2yo is NOT "real-time!" They are using the same NORAD/Space Command two-line orbital element sets that the rest of us are and propagating them into the present - the "current" public TLEs are about 6 days and counting out-of-date, so the tracking sites are NOT a reliable source unless the element sets are current.


Besides, I don't know about other folks, but I find Boeing to be a credible source.


----------



## dbmaven

Doug Brott said:


> Besides, I don't know about other folks, but I find Boeing to be a credible source.


Exactly.

This is similar to what was experienced with D10 in so many ways.
Effectively a "blackout" of TLE data for several days, new signal strength menu showing all 0's, Boeing announcement...... It may be another day or 2 before TLEs show up.

Maybe one particular naysayer can now go watch Echostar XI.....


----------



## seltech

So you guys are seeing the 99(c) in the signal strengths on your recievers? I still only see the 99(b) nothing else (the spaceway sat)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Besides, I don't know about other folks, but I find Boeing to be a credible source.


or Sixto....


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

seltech said:


> So you guys are seeing the 99(c) in the signal strengths on your recievers? I still only see the 99(b) nothing else (the spaceway sat)


It should show up as 99(a) on your H21...


----------



## Sixto

Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE129)
1 32729U 08013A   08203.60000000 -.00000118  00000-0  00000+0 0  1299
2 32729 000.0350 076.8670 0001892 177.7280 161.9040 01.00273712  1363

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		07-21-2008 14:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	136
Inclination		0.035
RA of A. Node		76.867
Eccentricity		0.0001892
Argument of Perigee	177.728
Revs per day		1.00273712
Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 794 km
Element number / age	129 / 0 day(s)


[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35 778 x 35 794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## seltech

AirRocker said:


> It should show up as 99(a) on your H21...


hrmm, currently I only see one 99 sat on my reciever and its 99(b). Waiting for the 2nd one to show up. Is there anything that I need to do by any chance?


----------



## syphix

<Navin>
THE NEW TLE'S ARE HERE! THE NEW TLE'S ARE HERE!!
</Navin>


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> D11
> 1 32729u 08013a 08203.60000000 -.00000118 00000-0 00000+0 0 1299
> 2 32729 000.0350 076.8670 0001892 177.7280 161.9040 01.00273712 1363
> 
> details coming ...


Parked at 99.2  :goodjob:



Code:


1Directv 11
Lon	99.2119° W
Lat	0.0121° S
Alt (km)	35 793.230
Azm	292.9°
Elv	-24.2°
RA	03h 39m 22s
Decl	-6° 34' 22"
Range (km)	44 388.879
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.074
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	164.7° (117)
TA	164.7°
Orbit #	136
Mag (illum)	Not visible
Constellation	Eri
2Sun
Azm	254.7°
Elv	36.5°
RA	08h 05m 23s
Decl	20° 20' 14"
Lon	37.1432° W
Lat	20.3209° N
Range (km)	151 995 606
Constellation	Cnc
3Moon
Azm	25.4°
Elv	-42.5°
RA	22h 33m 46s
Decl	-7° 58' 48"
Lon	179.7814° E
Lat	7.3142° S
Range (km)	392 511
Illum	90%
Phase	Waning gibbous
Constellation	Aqr


----------



## Sixto

It's there. Updating ...


----------



## say-what

LameLefty said:


> Parked at 99.217  :goodjob:


Wooooooo Hooooooo :icon_da:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> It's there. Updating ...


NOW I believe.


----------



## katzeye

Sixto said:


> It's there. Updating ...


Woo Hoo, Sir, I say Woo Hoo.
That is all...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

seltech said:


> hrmm, currently I only see one 99 sat on my reciever and its 99(b). Waiting for the 2nd one to show up. Is there anything that I need to do by any chance?


It should show up on its own... DirecTV may not have sent the signal to the H2x line to have the signal meter for that satellite show up yet...


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sixto said:


> It's there. Updating ...


:dance01:


----------



## mcbeevee

LameLefty said:


> Parked at 99.217  :goodjob:


Is that the final location, or does it still need a small bump to 99.225?

:jump3:


----------



## seltech

:goodjob: :allthumbs :icon_hroc


----------



## Sixto

Updated previous post:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE129)
1 32729U 08013A   08203.60000000 -.00000118  00000-0  00000+0 0  1299
2 32729 000.0350 076.8670 0001892 177.7280 161.9040 01.00273712  1363

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		07-21-2008 14:24:00
Orbit # at Epoch	136
Inclination		0.035
RA of A. Node		76.867
Eccentricity		0.0001892
Argument of Perigee	177.728
Revs per day		1.00273712
Period			23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis		42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 778 x 35 794 km
Element number / age	129 / 0 day(s)


[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35 778 x 35 794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)
TLE#126(07-09-2008 11:08:35) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.1 hours,at 111.7 days, 100.72°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## LameLefty

mcbeevee said:


> Is that the final location, or does it still need a small bump to 99.225?
> 
> :jump3:


It need a little bit of tweaking - the eccentricity isn't entirely damped out from the move, but it's close enough to begin location testing at or around its operational slot. Expect channels soon, I would think. Almost certainly within the next ten days, just as Satelliteracer predicted.


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> The latest TLE doesn't bear that out. It is forecast to be many miles away and moving at a relative snail's pace. If you look back a few pages, I believe Sixto ran the model out a couple of months at the current course and speed to get to the destination.


You must be like psychic man! ...or not, 

Anyway, Soon it will be time to break out the ice cream!










130 channels this summer!!!


----------



## Matt9876

Just to recap the last few pages:

If you own a Hxx unit D11 will show up on 99(a) "currently all zeros" 
If you own a HRxx unit D11 will show up on 99(c/a) 

(s/b) is a spot beam not the D11 bird.


----------



## jefbal99

mcbeevee said:


> Is that the final location, or does it still need a small bump to 99.225?
> 
> :jump3:


Looks like its not quite circular yet, so there may be a bump to 99.225


----------



## LameLefty

man_rob said:


> You must be like psychic man! ...or not,
> 
> Anyway, Soon it will be time to break out the ice cream!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 130 channels this summer!!!


He's just trolling - just put him on "Ignore" and you'll be able to miss out on lovely "gems" like that.


----------



## petergaryr

Just for fun I checked my HR20-700....and 99(c) is awake here in North Florida. SOON.


----------



## katzeye

I remember that D10 had issues in between parking and switch on, but does anyone remember the time frame?


----------



## bjamin82

AirRocker said:


> It should show up on its own... DirecTV may not have sent the signal to the H2x line to have the signal meter for that satellite show up yet...


I see 99a on my H23-600


----------



## LameLefty

katzeye said:


> I remember that D10 had issues in between parking and switch on, but does anyone remember the time frame?


It had to do with an issue with one or more particular spotbeams and trying to maximize the use of the satellite and balance the load given that problem. As I recall it delayed full rollout of the national HD channels for a few weeks, but I'm sure Sixto or someone has the detailed timeline handy. Barring any similar problems, D11 should be ready to go much more quickly.


----------



## merchione

:icon_hroc :icon_hroc *YEAH BABY!!!!!!!*


----------



## jefbal99

katzeye said:


> I remember that D10 had issues in between parking and switch on, but does anyone remember the time frame?


D10 issues were with spot beams and then getting the authorizations set up for the receivers.

No issues at the test spots this time...


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> It had to do with an issue with one or more particular spotbeams and trying to maximize the use of the satellite and balance the load given that problem. As I recall it delayed full rollout of the national HD channels for a few weeks, but I'm sure Sixto or someone has the detailed timeline handy. Barring any similar problems, D11 should be ready to go much more quickly.


The delay was a software authorization problem. D11 could go "live" 7/30. D11 originally was to go "live" 7-10 days after parked.


----------



## MIAMI1683

LameLefty said:


> It had to do with an issue with one or more particular spotbeams and trying to maximize the use of the satellite and balance the load given that problem. As I recall it delayed full rollout of the national HD channels for a few weeks, but I'm sure Sixto or someone has the detailed timeline handy. Barring any similar problems, D11 should be ready to go much more quickly.


 As usual Lefty you are correct. D10 was delayed but not very much. Now D11 will be lit by next week  . Hopfully :lol: :lol:


----------



## cforrest

Murphy's law, D11 will probably go live on 7/30 since I'll be taking an early AM flight to Vegas. Doesn't it always work that way? haha


----------



## katzeye

Sixto said:


> The delay was a software authorization problem. D11 could go "live" 7/30. D11 originally was to go "live" 7-10 days after parked.


Ah yes, Wednesday Morning. Always Wednesday.


----------



## n3ntj

Things are getting exciting.. can't wait for more HD. Crossing my fingers that all goes well with testing and that D11 is put into service very soon.


----------



## msmith

cforrest said:


> Murphy's law, D11 will probably go live on 7/30 since I'll be taking an early AM flight to Vegas. Doesn't it always work that way? haha


And I'll be out of town with the church youth group trip.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> The delay was a software authorization problem. D11 could go "live" 7/30. D11 originally was to go "live" 7-10 days after parked.


Thanks Sixto.

My definition of "live" is seeing reception on transponders with at least 1 or more channel....but that's just me. I still hold to my 8/4/08 guestimate of that activity....but am awaiting the expert information here as always.


----------



## tunce

Any active contracts with HD channels that you guys know of that will be lit up on D11?


----------



## syphix

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I still hold to my 8/4/08 guestimate of that activity....but am awaiting the expert information here as always.


B-b-b-ut 8/4 is a _MONDAY_....DirecTv has a history of honoring Wednesdays with channel lit-ups.



> *Peter Gibbons:* Let me ask you something. When you come in on Monday, and you're not feelin' real well, does anyone ever say to you, 'Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays'?
> *Lawrence:* No. No, man. S#*%, no, man. I believe you'd get your ass kicked sayin' something like that, man.


----------



## katzeye

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Sixto.
> 
> My definition of "live" is seeing reception on transponders with at least 1 or more channel....but that's just me. I still hold to my 8/4/08 guestimate of that activity....but am awaiting the expert information here as always.


I would have to assume for many of us "live" means new channels being turned on.


----------



## Matt9876

katzeye said:


> Ah yes, Wednesday Morning. Always Wednesday.


So True !

14 transponders, times 5 HD channels per transponder = 70 HD channels !!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> B-b-b-ut 8/4 is a _MONDAY_....DirecTv has a history of honoring Wednesdays with channel lit-ups.


Today's a Monday.


----------



## seern

A question for someone who is a little confused.  

We are seeing 14 transponders on 99 (a/c). Does this mean there are only 14 conus transponders on D11, or is this just what they are going to currently use?

OK, one more, when the spots go live will we see more then the number of transponders that are currently active on 99 (b/s)?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Sixto.
> 
> My definition of "live" is seeing reception on transponders with at least 1 or more channel....but that's just me. I still hold to my 8/4/08 guestimate of that activity....but am awaiting the expert information here as always.


Yep, agree, for clarity, D11 could start transmitting new national HD channels on 7/30 at 6am. Very likely for 8/6 or 8/13, but certainly possible for 7/30. It all depends on the internal DirecTV timeline. Seems like they may want to beat DISH's 8/1 date for their new channels.

This all does seem to match Satelliteracer's timeline of "end-of-month" (July).


----------



## syphix

Matt9876 said:


> So True !
> 
> 14 transponders, times 5 HD channels per transponder = 70 HD channels !!


Remember: some of those will probably be used up by HDNet, HDNet Movies, Universal HD, ESPN/ESPN2 HD, TNT-HD, HBO-HD, and SHO-HD moving to D11.


----------



## MIAMI1683

katzeye said:


> I would have to assume for many of us "live" means new channels being turned on.


 For me live is active transponders and stable. They could "balance the load" between D10 and D11 before they light up any "new" channels. Also local DMA's should start to light up. Whoever D* has carriage agreements with will know shortly about when D11 is going live!


----------



## Sixto

seern said:


> A question for someone who is a little confused.
> 
> We are seeing 14 transponders on 99 (a/c). Does this mean there are only 14 conus transponders on D11, or is this just what they are going to currently use?
> 
> OK, one more, when the spots go live will we see more then the number of transponders that are currently active on 99 (b/s)?


14 national transponders is what was expected.


----------



## moonman

It's official: Boeing turns control of Direct-11....
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html


----------



## syphix

moonman said:


> It's official: Boeing turns control of Direct-11....
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html


Posted four pages ago:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1688773&postcount=4465

Welcome to the festivus, though!


----------



## LameLefty

moonman said:


> It's official: Boeing turns control of Direct-11....
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html


Man, we posted that _pages and pages_ ago!


----------



## Doug Brott

moonman said:


> It's official: Boeing turns control of Direct-11....
> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html





LameLefty said:


> Man, we posted that _pages and pages_ ago!


plus it's on the DBSTalk.com home page


----------



## merchione

katzeye said:


> I would have to assume for many of us "live" means new channels being turned on.


That is correct sir


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Yep, agree, for clarity, D11 could start transmitting new national HD channels on 7/30 at 6am. Very likely for 8/6 or 8/13, but certainly possible for 7/30.


I was figuring perhaps about 8/4, in time for migrating some of the MPEG2 channels over, as well as perhaps a new local or two - all in time for the Olympics 8/8...but that's just speculation.

I know technically the bird is "live" in terms of its active operation, but I added the view that actual 1 channel transmission or more would demonstrate the business purpose "live" for D11.

In any case...things are actually ahead of schedule.


----------



## Ken984

Wow a guy tries to get some work done and everything goes nuts. Congratulations DirecTv and Boeing. Thanks to Sixto for doing a masterful job with the news and tech stuff for this massive thread!

Now for more HD!!!


----------



## merchione

Ken984 said:


> Wow a guy tries to get some work done and everything goes nuts. Congratulations DirecTv and Boeing. Thanks to Sixto for doing a masterful job with the news and tech stuff for this massive thread!
> 
> Now for more HD!!!


Yes Sixto Thank You for all the updates and getting us though this launch!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Thanks Sixto!! :goodjob:


----------



## doctor j

Glad to be part of FESTIVUS!!!!
99 c on in Alabama.

MAYBE Wednesday??!!

Doctor j


----------



## jefbal99

AirRocker said:


> Thanks Sixto!! :goodjob:


:righton:


----------



## JoeNY72

I have an H21-200 and as of this morning have all 0's on my 99(a) readings. 


Joe


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So just wondering out loud if we're close to the point of a new D11 thread on "what channels, when" and what future channels....maybe some kind of: 

"Now that D11 is in place, what channels?" thread.....just asking...


----------



## katzeye

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So just wondering out loud if we're close to the point of a new D11 thread on "what channels, when" and what future channels....maybe some kind of:
> 
> "Now that D11 is in place, what channels?" thread.....just asking...


I thought smiddy already started a version of that thread
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095

Of course the short answer is. "We need all of them"


----------



## mhayes70

AirRocker said:


> Thanks Sixto!! :goodjob:


:goodjob: Great Job Sixto and all his helpers!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

katzeye said:


> I thought smiddy already started a version of that thread
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095
> 
> Of course the short answer is. "We need all of them"


That's only a sorta-kinda thread of channel availability....

I'm talking about

"What Channels are on D11 " sorta-kinda thread...where we can discuss or share what is activated, and perhaps what may be forthcoming.

The other thread is super, but an open inventory of what new HD channels are available, not necessarily which ones we will see.


----------



## LameLefty

mhayes70 said:


> :goodjob: Great Job Sixto and all his helpers!!!


I believe he prefers the term "minions" . . . :lol:


----------



## katzeye

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's only a sorta-kinda thread of channel availability....
> 
> I'm talking about
> 
> "What Channels are on D11 " sorta-kinda thread...where we can discuss or share what is activated, and perhaps what may be forthcoming.
> 
> The other thread is super, but an open inventory of what new HD channels are available, not necessarily which ones we will see.


So, does anyone in here have any REAL information?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

katzeye said:


> So, does anyone in here have any REAL information?


Sixto.  LameLefty. 

...and perhaps some others...


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So just wondering out loud if we're close to the point of a new D11 thread on "what channels, when" and what future channels....maybe some kind of:
> 
> "Now that D11 is in place, what channels?" thread.....just asking...


I'll be updating the "DirecTV HD - Current Listing" thread soon, hopefully very soon ...


----------



## katzeye

Sixto said:


> I'll be updating the "DirecTV HD - Current Listing" thread soon, hopefully very soon ...


Oh, now you are just playing with us...
so cruel.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sixto.  LameLefty.
> 
> ...and perhaps some others...


Nah, I just make very informed suppositions based on stuff I know (general spacecraft engineering), past history, or stuff that makes sense in context. Once in a great while I _do_ get tidbits thrown my way from lurkers who really _are_ in a position to know, but not about upcoming new channels.

Other than that, I'm just a regular "outsider."


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> 14 national transponders is what was expected.


So far, no signals in a IF range 250...750 MHz using Slim dish..


----------



## tcusta00

Sixto said:


> I'll be updating the "DirecTV HD - Current Listing" thread soon, hopefully very soon ...


 Thread subscription added. :lol:


----------



## JohnJ

Fairly newbie here and I am amazed at all the detail, work, and info you guys ferret out. 

This new satellite is to do two major things for Directv, add National HD capacity and increase Local Channel Offerings. With the new satellite in place will both things happen together or will Directv try and bring up National capacity and work on Locals over time? 

Thanks for all that you guys do.


----------



## mauijiminar

katzeye said:


> We're all waiting it find out... No one knows...
> I don't remember how many days since the last TLE.
> Either way, it should be very soon.


What is a TLE?


----------



## TimGoodwin

I'm getting an 86 on transponder 6 on 99 (c) for a second or so then it goes away.


----------



## syphix

I'm going to lunch...someone page me if D11 lights up!


----------



## LameLefty

mauijiminar said:


> What is a TLE?


Two Line Element set - a standard format of numbers for describing in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth. These are calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.


----------



## Paul A

harsh said:


> The latest TLE doesn't bear that out. It is forecast to be many miles away and moving at a relative snail's pace. If you look back a few pages, I believe Sixto ran the model out a couple of months at the current course and speed to get to the destination.


WHATEVER!


----------



## LameLefty

Paul A said:


> WHATEVER!


What? Harsh is wrong _again_ about something to do with Directv? Say it's not so! :lol:


----------



## vurbano

Norfolk DMA 43 HD LIL please D*?


----------



## mcbeevee

LameLefty said:


> Two Line Element set - a standard format of numbers for describing in detail a spacecraft's trajectory around the earth. These are calculated and published by the U.S. government regularly.


Maybe the TLE definition should be part of Sixto's post #2, since it has been asked many times in this thread.


----------



## rey_1178

JohnJ said:


> Fairly newbie here and I am amazed at all the detail, work, and info you guys ferret out.
> 
> This new satellite is to do two major things for Directv, add National HD capacity and increase Local Channel Offerings. With the new satellite in place will both things happen together or will Directv try and bring up National capacity and work on Locals over time?
> 
> Thanks for all that you guys do.


:welcome_s :newbie:


----------



## merchione

vurbano said:


> Norfolk DMA 43 HD LIL please D*?


If my info is correct they will be added


----------



## Sixto

mcbeevee said:


> Maybe the TLE definition should be part of Sixto's post #2, since it has been asked many times in this thread.


It is. The TLE description has been there, right before the data. Will make it more visible. Thx.


----------



## LameLefty

mcbeevee said:


> Maybe the TLE definition should be part of Sixto's post #2, since it has been asked many times in this thread.


Probably, but if you follow these kinds of threads often, you know pretty much no one (newbies that is) reads the whole thing - they just jump to the last page and take off. :nono2:


----------



## raoul5788

LameLefty said:


> What? Harsh is wrong _again_ about something to do with Directv? Say it's not so! :lol:


Speaking of Harsh, where is the little ray of sunshine? He hasn't posted since early this morning! I wonder why?


----------



## Tigerman73

LameLefty said:


> What? Harsh is wrong _again_ about something to do with Directv? Say it's not so! :lol:


But you don't understand, D* was supposed to have this sat up and running over a year ago. They can't do anything right! :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> I'll be updating the "DirecTV HD - Current Listing" thread soon, hopefully very soon ...


Thanks.


----------



## Tigerman73

raoul5788 said:


> Speaking of Harsh, where is the little ray of sunshine? He hasn't posted since early this morning! I wonder why?


Since D* is about to spank that E* booty again, he's tucked tail and run. I'm sure given enough time he'll find something negative and be back before you know it. :grin:


----------



## VaJim

merchione said:


> If my info is correct they will be added


..When?? :lol:


----------



## bjamin82

I don't know if anyone has seen this yet...

http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10420775&returnExpertiseCode=

Not the first post, the reply from the "Tech"


----------



## Inches

merchione said:


> :icon_hroc :icon_hroc *YEAH BABY!!!!!!!*


Got one!!! If only until the next scan...


----------



## grump

bjamin82 said:


> I don't know if anyone has seen this yet...
> 
> http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10420775&returnExpertiseCode=
> 
> Not the first post, the reply from the "Tech"


He's not a Directv Tech, just a customer. Probably got those rumors from DBSTalk.


----------



## katzeye

bjamin82 said:


> I don't know if anyone has seen this yet...
> 
> http://forums.directv.com/pe/action...read?rootPostID=10420775&returnExpertiseCode=
> 
> Not the first post, the reply from the "Tech"


It appears that "texasbrit" is just a fan and not an insider, best I can tell.


----------



## bjamin82

katzeye said:


> It appears that "texasbrit" is just a fan and not an insider, best I can tell.


yea... i saw his profile after i posted the link


----------



## braven

raoul5788 said:


> Speaking of Harsh, where is the little ray of sunshine? He hasn't posted since early this morning! I wonder why?


I'll admit it. That made me giggle.


----------



## John4924

VaJim said:


> ..When?? :lol:


_SOON!_

Where is eaglepc??:lol:


----------



## VeniceDre

Doug Brott said:


> Sounds like you guys are finally seeing the wait come to an end ..


I forgot to post, "So I got a haricut this weekend..." :lol:


----------



## man_rob

John4924 said:


> _SOON!_
> 
> Where is eaglepc??:lol:


I think we've graduated to 
*REALLY, REALLY SOON!* 
now.


----------



## texasbrit

bjamin82 said:


> yea... i saw his profile after i posted the link


Yes, it's me: I am one of the techknow guides at DirecTV forum and you will also see my posts here. 
I am just like everyone else, picking up info where I can. satelliteracer's posts on this forum are interesting though, since he is an "insider".


----------



## LameLefty

I hope we get some solid continuous Tps showing up by tonight but who knows? I am out of the office for work for the remainder of the day. 'Til then, carry on!

And in the immortal words of the great American Beavis, "May we all have Tp for our . . ." er, idiot boxes!


----------



## Doug Brott

man_rob said:


> I think we've graduated to
> *REALLY, REALLY SOON!*
> now.


----------



## bigref

OK I am confused. I have 2 h20's and only am showing 99a and 99b?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I hope we get some solid continuous Tps showing up by tonight but who knows? I am out of the office for work for the remainder of the day. 'Til then, carry on!
> 
> And in the immortal words of the great American Beavis, "May we all have Tp for our . . ." er, idiot boxes!


Yeah...yeah...yeah...thats it...yeah...yeah (in beavis voice)...


----------



## jefbal99

man_rob said:


> I think we've graduated to
> *REALLY, REALLY SOON!*
> now.


and when we see a solid TP or two will we then graduate to a third really?


----------



## katzeye

LameLefty said:


> I hope we get some solid continuous Tps showing up by tonight but who knows? I am out of the office for work for the remainder of the day. 'Til then, carry on!
> 
> And in the immortal words of the great American Beavis, "May we all have Tp for our . . ." er, idiot boxes!


!rolling


----------



## jefbal99

bigref said:


> OK I am confused. I have 2 h20's and only am showing 99a and 99b?


99a is D11

on the HR2Xs its 99s and 99c
on the H2Xs its 99b and 99a


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bigref said:


> OK I am confused. I have 2 h20's and only am showing 99a and 99b?


99a on your H20 is comparible to 99(c) on the HRx series of DVR's for the D11 transponder range...


----------



## FHSPSU67

John4924 said:


> _SOON!_
> 
> Where is eaglepc??:lol:


Eagle PC flew in for a short visit earlier this morning


----------



## jared52

bigref said:


> OK I am confused. I have 2 h20's and only am showing 99a and 99b?


That's what you want to see on the H2x's. 99(a) is 99(c) on the HR2x's I think.

EDIT: Wow, I was slow!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> It is notable that D10's handover was never formally announced by Boeing.


But then...neither was Echostar 2 by its manufacturer...


----------



## syphix

Any insiders (Satelliteracer?) have knowledge of a "test channel", like what we had with D10?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Inches said:


> Got one!!! If only until the next scan...


Curious how many tries you gave it before one came up...I've been running about 2 a minute on 99(c), with all zeros...


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Curious how many tries you gave it before one came up...I've been running about 2 a minute on 99(c), with all zeros...


my god, 2 a minute?

slow down before you blow up your HR2X


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> my god, 2 a minute?
> 
> slow down before you blow up your HR2X


Mouse...meet slingbox remote....


----------



## jefbal99

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Mouse...meet slingbox remote....


i need a slingbox...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jefbal99 said:


> i need a slingbox...


Everyone does... 

They just don't all know it... :lol:

Perhaps they can put one on D12? :eek2:  :hurah:


----------



## MikeR7

I just had a signal on TP 7, and then it disappeared


----------



## MIAMI1683

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Everyone does...
> 
> They just don't all know it... :lol:
> 
> Perhaps they can put one on D12? :eek2:  :hurah:


 I have been looking at them for a while. Once I move maybe. Now I will need a switch too cause I have used up all of my ports on my router.


----------



## MikeR7

I have a SB, but it's no good at work because the sys admin blocks it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MikeR7 said:


> I have a SB, but it's no good at work because the sys admin blocks it.


Job hunting time?  :lol:

It's all a matter of priorities.


----------



## Hdhead

Does anyone recall the test channel numbers used by D10? I remember testing that came and went at various times before the networks went "live"on their permanent designated channel numbers.


----------



## VeniceDre

Hdhead said:


> Does anyone recall the test channel numbers used by D10? I remember testing that came and went at various times before the networks went "live"on their permanent designated channel numbers.


Wasn't it in the 9000s? maybe 9700


----------



## merchione

VaJim said:


> ..When?? :lol:


*SOON*


----------



## hdtvfan0001

VeniceDre said:


> Wasn't it in the 9000s? maybe 9700


Seems about right..


----------



## MikeR7

480/481 they are still there


----------



## MikeR7

oh, the ones way up there, cant remember


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

There were some in the 9300's... and something like 498...


----------



## VeniceDre

MikeR7 said:


> 480/481 they are still there


Different test channels. I recall 9300 being Nat Geo channel while they were testing... The we had to wait a few weeks for it even after D10 went live. :lol:

I still remember the Fishing village and Whale documentaries they had on that 1st night.


----------



## Dave

JOhnJ,

Welcome aboard dbstalk. As you can see you picked an exciting day to make your first post. We have been waiting excitedly since this past March to see any kind of number at all coming from D11. I for one and very glad to say that my prediction from yesterday did not come true. If you have any questions, concerns or just want to ask a question just jump right in. I think this is the best satellite forum board going on anywhere. The knowledge is so vast of the boards memebers you will be amazed as many are, including myself.

Once again welcome aboard dbstalk.


----------



## VeniceDre

BTW

Does this mean I have to stock up on Diet Coke, Beer, and snacks again for the chat room?

Those late night chats sessions for D10 were crazy!


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> If the model is any good, it should be able to synthesize snapshots at any point in time.The key phrase here is "reasonable prediction" which is not a record of the actual position at any point in time.


As has been stated here before, the prediction can't be accurate when an artificial force is applied to it. NO TLE is going to be accurate on a space object that has active thrusters.

The biggest question is: knowing the potential of inaccuracies with predictions based on TLEs in a situation like this, why did you continue to make predictions based on TLEs?


----------



## dettxw

I zipped up and got this pic of D11 for you all.


----------



## DarinC

dettxw said:


> I zipped up and got this pic of D11 for you all.


Well no wonder we're getting zeros... the antennas are pointing in the wrong direction!


----------



## Steve615

Just checked for 99 (c) on both of our HR20-700s here and see the same results.
14 TPs ( Nos. 1-14 ) with 0% signal strength currently.
TPs 15-32 showing N/A.



The Scotsman said:


> I am also seeing 14 transponders on 99(c) with 0% on all. Very encouraging.


----------



## RichardMcCarty

Why are the new channels always made live on Wednesdays?



katzeye said:


> Ah yes, Wednesday Morning. Always Wednesday.


----------



## Sixto

As a point of reference ...

We received our first signal from D10 on Wednesday 9/12/2007.

D10 was scheduled to go "live" on Wednesday 9/19/2007. 

Because of a last-minute "authorization issue", got pushed to Wednesday 9/26/2007.

Very possible for 7/30/2008, unless DirecTV has other plans for 8/6 or 8/13 being a better day.


----------



## mcbeevee

RichardMcCarty said:


> Why are the new channels always made live on Wednesdays?


My guess is Wednesday is a low volume call day for the CSR's, so they can handle the extra calls for the new channels (if needed).


----------



## dgsiiinc

Wednesday is a great day for pushing patches, uploading content and modifying services. Late enough that staff can be prepared for potential issues and early enough that those issues can be resolved prior to the end of the work week.


----------



## bakerfall

MikeR7 said:


> I have a SB, but it's no good at work because the sys admin blocks it.


I use the free service at logmein.com to connect to my home PC and then launch my slingbox. It's totally inadequate for actually watching TV, but for checking status, recordings, etc, it's completely functional.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bakerfall said:


> I use the free service at logmein.com to connect to my home PC and then launch my slingbox. It's totally inadequate for actually watching TV, but for checking status, recordings, etc, it's completely functional.


I've always said for every lock there's a key... 

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## MikeR7

bakerfall said:


> I use the free service at logmein.com to connect to my home PC and then launch my slingbox. It's totally inadequate for actually watching TV, but for checking status, recordings, etc, it's completely functional.


Just tried logmein.com when I got back here to work after lunch at home. They have that site blocked too!:lol:


----------



## I WANT MORE

MikeR7 said:


> I have a SB, but it's no good at work because the sys admin blocks it.


+1
I just don't understand employers these days.


----------



## MudMover

LameLefty said:


> Hey if Harsh wants to get pedantic, I can put my aerospace and mechanical engineering degree up against his (along with my posting history here) any time.
> 
> Of course it's not a literal snapshot, but then again, neither is it a "model." It is an actual mathematical depiction of an orbit at a specific moment in time (e.g., a "snapshot.")
> 
> The "model" itself is something called the SGP4/SDP4 model, which uses this mathematical depiction. But I'm sure Harsh already knows that.


Hey..I see your aerospace and mechanical engineering and call you with my electrical engineering and Amateur radio experience...(including multiple radio contacts on satellites.)

Just kidding...you're talking good words there!


----------



## woj027

Didn't the Boeing Report say they are turning the Sat over 8 days early? 

If so would we have expected to have service on 7/30 just one or two days after turnover? 
Or would we have expected 8/6?


----------



## HDTVFreak07

Man, I'm checking two forums the last few days. One is this one in anticipation of D11 to go live and the other is on AT&T Wireless in anticipation of getting Windows Mobile 6.1 for my AT&T Tilt phone. PLUS, my business is awful slow which makes this anticipation unbearable!


----------



## Sixto

woj027 said:


> Didn't the Boeing Report say they are turning the Sat over 8 days early?
> 
> If so would we have expected to have service on 7/30 just one or two days after turnover?
> Or would we have expected 8/6?


The original rumor (for a few months) was 8/13.

The new rumor has been 7/30, so that DISH never has the lead. But just a guess. May still be 8/13 or 8/6.

My money is on 7/30.


----------



## woj027

As usual, thanks Sixto.


----------



## DarinC

HDTVFreak07 said:


> the other is on AT&T Wireless in anticipation of getting Windows Mobile 6.1 for my AT&T Tilt phone.


Strange place to get it, but thanks for the heads up.


----------



## hancox

Sixto said:


> My money is on 7/30.


Either that or the 31st, but I think you're right.


----------



## Steve Robertson

My money is on SOON


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But then...neither was Echostar 2 by its manufacturer...


Echostar 2 was built by Lockheed Martin, so I wouldn't have expected its handoff to be announced by Boeing.


----------



## beakor

what exactly happens after boeing turns over the bird to d*?


----------



## Sixto

beakor said:


> what exactly happens after boeing turns over the bird to d*?


The bird is then ready (and fully tested) for commercial use.


----------



## NorfolkBruh

So I'm reading a 29 for about 3 seconds on this one!


----------



## Hdhead

beakor said:


> what exactly happens after boeing turns over the bird to d*?


D* writes Boeing a BIG check. :grin:


----------



## tcusta00

483,000 views...

As a side note... this thread has been looked at (roughly) every 11 seconds, on average) since it opened four months ago. :eek2:

Boy, do we love our HD! :lol:


----------



## Sirshagg




----------



## grump

Hdhead said:


> D* writes Boeing a BIG check. :grin:


I hate those things. They're so hard to fold up and fit in your wallet.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> Echostar 2 was built by Lockheed Martin, so I wouldn't have expected its handoff to be announced by Boeing.


That's why I didn't name Boeing...I said "by its manufacturer"...


----------



## ub1934

tcusta00 said:


> 483,000 views...
> 
> As a side note... this thread has been looked at (roughly) every 11 seconds, on average) since it opened four months ago. :eek2:
> 
> Boy, do we love our HD! :lol:


* Am now showing 14 transponders on 99c , got a sig. on transponder # 4 of 100 for 1 or 2 sec & then it went away .:hurah: *


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's why I didn't name Boeing...I said "by its manufacturer"...


Indeed and I wasn't paying attention.

Lockheed Martin has never been in the habit of announcing handovers, so it isn't unexpected that E2 wasn't announced.


----------



## P Smith

NorfolkBruh said:


> So I'm reading a 29 for about 3 seconds on this one!


I'm pretty sure you got some blips from local radars or so.

We should see real signals at West Coast first ( a hint - El Segundo ).


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure you got some blips from local radars or so.
> 
> We should see real signals at West Coast first ( a hint - El Segundo ).


While interesting in theory, since several of us had that same blip at the same time, that either had to be one very powerful radar or the simpler solution of D11 testing 

(Yes, I had TP 3 at 50 for a few seconds.)

Woohoo!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Chaos

If I remember from D10, we should start seeing signal popping in and out and at different levels for a couple of days while they adjust for the optimum power levels from each of the transponders.


----------



## DEF

47,59,58 on 1,3 and 5 in Ohio.


----------



## NorfolkBruh

And as they say... the simple solution is usually the most accurate... except when discussing rocket science! lololol :lol:


----------



## DarinC

P Smith said:


> I'm pretty sure you got some blips from local radars or so.


I wouldn't think local radar could give you a reading on the receiver. The "signal strength" meters on most DBS receivers I'm aware of aren't really measuring signal strength so much as signal quality. I would expect local radar to appear pretty much as jibberish to a DBS receiver, and therefore not show any signal "strength".


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> While interesting in theory, since several of us had that same blip at the same time, that either had to be one very powerful radar or the simpler solution of D11 testing
> 
> (Yes, I had TP 3 at 50 for a few seconds.)
> 
> Woohoo!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have real job to do rather then watch a screen 24/7 .


----------



## tuff bob

just saw an 83 on tp8


----------



## Tom Robertson

(Sniff) How quickly they grow up. So recently I was with m'boy as he was wrapped in proper Packer color swaddling blankets awaiting a cab ride home. Now he's all grown up, ready to shine and spread joy throughout the DIRECTV land. I'm so proud. (sniff, sniff.)

My last picture with him:









(From my thread How I spent my Winter Vacation) 

Happy for m'boy,
Tom


----------



## bruinfever

Just checked in today...FINALLY, some signs of life drom D11!!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> (Sniff) How quickly they grow up. So recently I was with m'boy as he was wrapped in proper Packer color swaddling blankets awaiting a cab ride home. Now he's all grown up, ready to shine and spread joy throughout the DIRECTV land. I'm so proud. (sniff, sniff.)


And so far it has flown ..


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> I wouldn't think local radar could give you a reading on the receiver.


RADAR usually employs frequencies from 8GHz to 40GHz. It is conceivable that RADAR (or a harmonic) might show up on a satellite receiver.


----------



## merchione

vurbano said:


> Norfolk DMA 43 HD LIL please D*?





VaJim said:


> ..When?? :lol:


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=131690


----------



## mhayes70

Tom Robertson said:


> (Sniff) How quickly they grow up. So recently I was with m'boy as he was wrapped in proper Packer color swaddling blankets awaiting a cab ride home. Now he's all grown up, ready to shine and spread joy throughout the DIRECTV land. I'm so proud. (sniff, sniff.)
> 
> Happy for m'boy,
> Tom


:lol:


----------



## Steve615

With people now reporting various signal strengths from D11,what are the odds that we may see some "TEST" channels showing up in the guide sometime soon? 

BTW,still seeing all 0% strengths on TPs 1-14 here.


----------



## Newshawk

harsh said:


> RADAR usually employs frequencies from 8GHz to 40GHz. It is conceivable that RADAR (or a harmonic) might show up on a satellite receiver.


Except that the angles are all wrong. The entire dish is designed to look at a group of points in space, not receive any RF form any angle. The radar would have to be in the same sight line as the satellite for the LNB to see it, unless it was strong enough to bleed through into the LNB from the side.

It's got to be D11.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Blips on signal strength are very short, sometimes just seconds right now. We should see them settle to full strength in a couple days, I'm thinking.

Woohoo! They're coming! They're coming! 

Cheers,
Tom

(You know, I can understand why I got so excited about the first group, yet I'm almost just as excited for this group. Interesting... Now back to our regularly scheduled Woohoos!)


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Tom Robertson said:


> Blips on signal strength are very short, sometimes just seconds right now. We should see them settle to full strength in a couple days, I'm thinking.
> 
> Woohoo! They're coming! They're coming!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> (You know, I can understand why I got so excited about the first group, yet I'm almost just as excited for this group. Interesting... Now back to our regularly scheduled Woohoos!)


Settle down Tom... It's just radar...


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> RADAR usually employs frequencies from 8GHz to 40GHz. It is conceivable that RADAR (or a harmonic) might show up on a satellite receiver.


Yes, I understand that radar can be in the same frequency range as DBS, and these transmissions can actually be received by the LNB. My point, however, is that the signal "strength" meters in DBS receivers are actually considering signal quality... they incorporate the signal to noise ratio into the reading. A radar transmission, if picked up by the receiver, is considered noise, not a valid signal that it understands. Given no other valid (satellite) transmissions, I would expect a radar signal to not show up at all. If stray radar signals were received in addition to the satellite transmission, it would actually _reduce_ the reading in the signal strength screen, not increase it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve615 said:


> With people now reporting various signal strengths from D11,what are the odds that we may see some "TEST" channels showing up in the guide sometime soon?
> 
> BTW,still seeing all 0% strengths on TPs 1-14 here.


Likewise...I've done about 100 spot updates readings on Tuner 1 alternating with Tuner 2...all zeros here this afternoon every time I checked.Even at checking as many as 8 times per minute...still all zeros...so its a hit-or-miss endeavor.


----------



## machavez00

add me to the list, 99(c) is on the screen


----------



## bobojay

Thing is, even with all this new HD programming, there's still very little that's worth watching! Mostly reruns from SD programming.


----------



## Sixto

Today is a happy day. 

For those with HD receivers, we will soon see much more HD. 

For those lacking HD LIL, many more LIL markets will soon be lit up.

Can we have a nice sunny summer afternoon, and possibly move the TLE chatter to the "Harsh against the World" thread ... 

A beautiful day it is!


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Today is a happy day.
> 
> For those with HD receivers, we will soon see much more HD.
> 
> For those lacking HD LIL, many more LIL markets will soon be lit up.
> 
> Can we have a nice sunny summer afternoon, and possibly move the TLE chatter to the "Harsh against the World" thread ...
> 
> A beautiful day it is!


You took the words right out of my mouth Sixto!


----------



## mhayes70

Sixto said:


> Today is a happy day.
> 
> For those with HD receivers, we will soon see much more HD.
> 
> For those lacking HD LIL, many more LIL markets will soon be lit up.
> 
> Can we have a nice sunny summer afternoon, and possibly move the TLE chatter to the "Harsh against the World" thread ...
> 
> A beautiful day it is!


I totally agree.


----------



## davring

bobojay said:


> Thing is, even with all this new HD programming, there's still very little that's worth watching! Mostly reruns from SD programming.


They are just paving the road, the traffic will come.


----------



## dogs31

I always enjoy coffee while watching radar. - Dark Helmet


----------



## DodgerKing

bobojay said:


> Thing is, even with all this new HD programming, there's still very little that's worth watching! Mostly reruns from SD programming.


The station has to be there first


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Happy Day.


----------



## bjamin82

dogs31 said:


> I always enjoy coffee while watching radar. - Dark Helmet


----------



## Tom Robertson

And we think this thread gets lots of hits... the poor signal meters on the receivers nationwide must be getting exhausted....

(I'll call DIRECTV and see if they can play a song on the 8 notes of TP 1-8...) !rolling


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> And we think this thread gets lots of hits... the poor signal meters on the receivers nationwide must be getting exhausted....
> 
> (I'll call DIRECTV and see if they can play a song on the 8 notes of TP 1-8...) !rolling


Great idea Tom...right now the flatline of 0's is getting a bit old... :lol:


----------



## t-stark

From Tom
(I'll call DIRECTV and see if they can play a song on the 8 notes of TP 1-8...) 

Directv contacted me and I will be building a mountain from mashed potatoes


----------



## bleggett29

Dang! 12 pages of posts since I first posted about my sighting of D11 this morning. Unlike others, I haven't seen anything other than a bunch of 0's. I'm still waiting for something above 0.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Every forum I belong to has these types of people. All they do is instigate, and all you do by responding is encourage it. You are as much to blame as he is.....


----------



## dogs31

This is bigger than "Dark Knight". To quote the words from Joker "Let's put a smile on that face."


----------



## Inches

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Curious how many tries you gave it before one came up...I've been running about 2 a minute on 99(c), with all zeros...


I initially checked and while the 0's were scrolling on TP 7 there was a 96, I looked away and read something on the computer screen and looked back at the TV and there was a 0. Was it one of those am I dreamin' moments? I went to 99(s) and let it fill while getting the camera and switched back to to 99(c) and there was a 96 again so I took a picture. After I took the picture (about 10 seconds) it changed to a 0. Tried it a few more times and got the 96 on another TP, took the picture and then quit.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Inches said:


> I initially checked and while the 0's were scrolling on TP 7 there was a 96, I looked away and read something on the computer screen and looked back at the TV and there was a 0. Was it one of those am I dreamin' moments? I went to 99(s) and let it fill while getting the camera and switched back to to 99(c) and there was a 96 again so I took a picture. After I took the picture (about 10 seconds) it changed to a 0. Tried it a few more times and got the 96 on another TP, took the picture and then quit.


Thanks...that's what I figured....a sneeze may cause one to miss seeing things...so it is kinda hit-or-miss...

Soon enough...we'll probably start seeing more solid numbers on one or more transponders..this stugg is D10 dejavu..


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks...that's what I figured....a sneeze may cause one to miss seeing things...so it is kinda hit-or-miss...
> 
> Soon enough...we'll probably start seeing more solid numbers on one or more transponders..this stugg is D10 dejavu..


Or.... maybe you're just too slow....


----------



## curt8403

AirRocker said:


> Or.... maybe you're just too slow....


dozens have seen, but thousands who have not seen, have believed. Blessed be those who have not seen but have believed.
:grin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> Or.... maybe you're just too slow....


Yeah...that could be it..in the mean time...gotta go back to watching transponders...

...its what I live for today...


----------



## Dolly

curt8403 said:


> dozens have seen, but thousands who have not seen, have believed. Blessed be those who have not seen but have believed.
> :grin:


All I have seen is zeros, but I still believe  And here I thought I was the only one wearing out my receiver checking for numbers  :lol: Does anyone remember E.T.? Come on D11 call home


----------



## cygnusloop

curt8403 said:


> dozens have seen, but thousands who have not seen, have believed. Blessed be those who have not seen but have believed.
> :grin:


Amen!
:gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: 
:bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott:
:gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown: :gott: :bowdown:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yeah...that could be it..in the mean time...gotta go back to watching transponders...
> 
> ...its what I live for today...


I need a slingbox!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> I need a slingbox!!


I've been telling you that now for some time.

Now D11 has proven it all over again...conform! :lol: :lol:


----------



## cajunbug

curt8403 said:


> dozens have seen, but thousands who have not seen, have believed. Blessed be those who have not seen but have believed.
> :grin:


Songs like a slogan from a particular presidential candidate.

:angel:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I've been telling you that now for some time.
> 
> Now D11 has proven it all over again...conform! :lol: :lol:


I shoulda listened to you a year ago when you first told me... :lol:

(now if they would just hurry up with that iPhone sling app )


----------



## I WANT MORE

And BlackBerry


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> I shoulda listened to you a year ago when you first told me... :lol:
> 
> (now if they would just hurry up with that iPhone sling app )


In the mean time...as I play "toggle the tuner" on the signal level screens.... 

I'm just thinking happy thoughts about all the new HD from D11....

Ahhhhhhhhhh........


----------



## LameLefty

Wow, I'm out of the office working in another town for a few hours and five pages of posts! Holy moley. 

Still all zeros on my signal meters but in the immortal words of Mulder, "I want to believe."


----------



## curt8403

cajunbug said:


> Songs like a slogan from a particular presidential candidate.
> 
> :angel:


I would love to be president. My campaign slogan would be "I will do whatever I want, whenever I want, and that should be enough of a change for anyone."


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> I know that there will be an announcement tomorrow morning around 6:30 am CST.


So who is smiddy hanging out with? 

He makes the post above and then at 6:26am ET, we get a post of 99(c).

Smiddy a clairvoyant? or holding back on us? or just lucky?


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> So who is smiddy hanging out with?
> 
> He makes the post above and then at 6:26am ET, we get a post of 99(c).
> 
> Smiddy a clairvoyant? or holding back on us? or just lucky?


I was gonna ask that earlier today....

C'mon smiddy....who do you know...what MORE do you know??


----------



## Sirshagg

harsh said:


> No....


Might I suggest that a new thread be started "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE" and this debate can be continued there.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


> Might I suggest that a new thread be started "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE" and this debate can be continued there.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> So who is smiddy hanging out with?
> 
> He makes the post above and then at 6:26am ET, we get a post of 99(c).
> 
> Smiddy a clairvoyant? or holding back on us? or just lucky?


He called it. Smiddy seems to really know what he is talking about!

Smid, give us more details! You are proving to be a reliable source!


----------



## Sixto

Added this TLE info earlier to post#2:http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/​
Discussion can continue in the referenced "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE" thread. 

Enjoy ...


----------



## Newshawk

Sixto said:


> Can we have a nice sunny summer afternoon, and possibly move the TLE chatter to the "Harsh against the World" thread ... !


I've looked all over and can't find that thread... :sure:


----------



## FHSPSU67

I'm getting intermittent, but consistent numbers (39-52) nearly every other scan on TP's 3, 4, or 5. Never more than one at a time.
Closer and Closer!


----------



## urnote96

just a quick question....do you guys look at your signal strengths everyday or are ya just bored....


----------



## man_rob

Sixto said:


> Added this TLE info earlier to post#2:http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/​
> Discussion can continue in the referenced "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE" thread.
> 
> Enjoy ...


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!


----------



## HDTVFreak07

urnote96 said:


> just a quick question....do you guys look at your signal strengths everyday or are ya just bored....


Or maybe, maybe I - I - I have no life. :nono:


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Holy crap, I disappear for a few meetings in the afternoon and return to this... Can someone summorize in 1 post what the heck is going on?

Is this like when 103c went live and we all watched TP4?


----------



## Radio Enginerd

urnote96 said:


> just a quick question....do you guys look at your signal strengths everyday or are ya just bored....


No, I work a 9-5 but I press F5 every 3 seconds to see if I've missed anything.


----------



## Sirshagg

last few hundred posts - sat is essentially parked, no steady readings on TP's, what is a TLE war. Did I miss something?


----------



## woj027

Radio Enginerd said:


> Holy crap, I disappear for a few meetings in the afternoon and return to this... Can someone summorize in 1 post what the heck is going on?
> 
> Is this like when 103c went live and we all watched TP4?


Nothing really is going on. Lots of reports of short bursts of readings on TP's but no video, no nothing. Lots of exictement. No Action.

We've been spending our time talking about the Finer points of TLE's


----------



## syphix

QUESTION (wow...a post actually related to D11...): what satellite tells our boxes to allow metering of a new satellite? Like when D10 started to light up, or now...when D11 is almost ready to begin talking. Prior to today, we weren't able to even register 0's on 99(c)...what changed that? A signal from 99(c) itself, or from 101?...or a different one?


----------



## henryld

A dumb question. If 99c is conus why can't everyone see these little short test bursts.?


----------



## DodgerKing

henryld said:


> A dumb question. If 99c is conus why can't everyone see these little short test bursts.?


You can. You just have to get a little lucky and check at the exact time.


----------



## syphix

henryld said:


> A dumb question. If 99c is conus why can't everyone see these little short test bursts.?


Most likely because your metering the wrong transponder at the wrong split second...seriously.

I have yet to see anything on 99(c), but get wonderful signal on 99(s) and 103(c), so I have no doubts of 99(c) coming up fine once things settle down.


----------



## jodyguercio

henryld said:


> A dumb question. If 99c is conus why can't everyone see these little short test bursts.?


Everyone might be seeing them and just not know it as they may not all be looking at their sig strength at the same time....just a guess.


----------



## evan_s

syphix said:


> QUESTION (wow...a post actually related to D11...): what satellite tells our boxes to allow metering of a new satellite? Like when D10 started to light up, or now...when D11 is almost ready to begin talking. Prior to today, we weren't able to even register 0's on 99(c)...what changed that? A signal from 99(c) itself, or from 101?...or a different one?


It should be coming down as part of the guide and channel data that currently come from either 101 or 119.


----------



## curt8403

henryld said:


> A dumb question. If 99c is conus why can't everyone see these little short test bursts.?


because they are there, and ftttpt/ they are gone. it's a matter of being in the right place at the right second


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sirshagg said:


> Might I suggest that a new thread be started "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE" and this debate can be continued there.


Done: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133780

:

So this means all discussion of the metaphysical or existential nature of TLEs can continue there. TLEs about D11 can remain here.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

Thank you for cleaning the thread, Tom. :up:

Are we there yet??


----------



## BoxLunchAtTheY

Yummy!


----------



## LameLefty

I got nuthin'.


----------



## HIGHWAY

99c i have 0s


----------



## GP245

17 is Odd,

While 22 is Even!


----------



## Sirshagg

GP245 said:


> 17 is Odd,
> 
> While 22 is Even!


But 22 - 17 = 5 
and 5 is prime!!!


----------



## man_rob

LameLefty said:


> I got nuthin'.


----------



## Sirshagg

So I'm kinda curious on something...

Using a slimline dish I'm getting good signal strength on 103 (including D10), 110, 101, and 119. Is it safe to say that I'll be good on 99 too? Note: My locals are on 103 so to the best of my knowledge I currently get nothing from 99.

My gut tells me it would probably be very difficult to aim the slimline such that 4 locations come in good but not the 5th.


----------



## evan_s

If you are getting all other sats, 103c especially, at good levels you should be set on 99c.


----------



## syphix

If you get 101, 103, 110, and 119, it's fair to assume you will get 99.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sirshagg said:


> So I'm kinda curious on something...
> 
> Using a slimline dish I'm getting good signal strength on 103 (including D10), 110, 101, and 119. Is it safe to say that I'll be good on 99 too? Note: My locals are on 103 so to the best of my knowledge I currently get nothing from 99.
> 
> My gut tells me it would probably be very difficult to aim the slimline such that 4 locations come in good but not the 5th.


Wise gut.


----------



## syphix

Those testing 99(c)...are they in California or Colorado? Did we determine that last time with D10? Just curious as to when they are done with their "testing" for the day and go home...


----------



## sticketfan

if i can't get sat 119 because of trees, will i have a problem with the new sat. i am in vermont. one reason i look forward to the new sat is the movement of the stations frome the 119. i hope i will not be left in the dark again


----------



## syphix

sticketfan said:


> if i can't get sat 119 because of trees, will i have a problem with the new sat. i am in vermont. one reason i look forward to the new sat is the movement of the stations frome the 119. i hope i will not be left in the dark again


99 is on the opposite side of 119...so hopefully not. If you get 110, 103, and 101...you will get 99 (read: _should_). Now, if they decide to put a satellite up at 121, you might be SOL...


----------



## smiddy

purtman said:


> Smiddy, what's the announcement?


http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html

I hope this answer some of the mail, sorry I was away all day in training.


----------



## Draconis

Good link *smiddy*, have another.

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=70508


----------



## syphix

smiddy said:


> http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080721b_nr.html
> 
> I hope this answer some of the mail, sorry I was away all day in training.


That's not an answer as to how you knew that announcement was coming today at that particular time...


----------



## P Smith

syphix said:


> Those testing 99(c)...are they in California or Colorado? Did we determine that last time with D10? Just curious as to when they are done with their "testing" for the day and go home...


El Segundo.


----------



## keithtd

Just saw TP3 at 33


----------



## VaJim

vurbano said:


> Norfolk DMA 43 HD LIL please D*?


...actually we're number 42...thank you


----------



## MIAMI1683

syphix said:


> That's not an answer as to how you knew that announcement was coming today at that particular time...


 You have to trust that he had a gut feeling.


----------



## Fibertec

DIRECTV 11
Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:01:50 GMT
Latitude: 0.03°
Longitude: -99.22°
Right Ascension: 14h 21m 28s
Declination: -6° 55' 12''
Azimuth: 190.83°
Elevation: +45.48°
Altitude [km]: 35779.31
Altitude [miles]: 22183.17
Speed [km/s]: 0
Speed [miles/s]: 0
Eclipsed? NO

Check this out!!!


----------



## MIAMI1683

Fibertec said:


> DIRECTV 11
> Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:01:50 GMT
> Latitude: 0.03°
> Longitude: -99.22°
> Right Ascension: 14h 21m 28s
> Declination: -6° 55' 12''
> Azimuth: 190.83°
> Elevation: +45.48°
> Altitude [km]: 35779.31
> Altitude [miles]: 22183.17
> Speed [km/s]: 0
> Speed [miles/s]: 0
> Eclipsed? NO
> 
> Check this out!!!


 Cetainly looks good to me!


----------



## Sixto

Fibertec said:


> DIRECTV 11
> Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:01:50 GMT
> Latitude: 0.03°
> Longitude: -99.22° ... Check this out!!!


Welcome to the discussion.

The latest TLE (posted this morning), would put D11 at 99.22 this evening. Actually, 99.2282 at this moment, assuming no changes. But we do expect some minor correction to get D11 to an exact geostationary orbit. This morning's TLE was slightly off at 35,778 x 35,794 km.


----------



## smiddy

syphix said:


> That's not an answer as to how you knew that announcement was coming today at that particular time...


Yep, you are right...how could _I_ that?  Hey, wasn't it funny how the transponder page came up too?


----------



## smiddy

I just saw the new TLE pop up too...good catch...we're getting closer now!


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> That's not an answer as to how you knew that announcement was coming today at that particular time...


maybe Smiddy has become an insider


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> maybe Smiddy has become an insider


Maybe he's always been the "Ogre on the Inside" . . . hmmmm . . . :grin:


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> Blips on signal strength are very short, sometimes just seconds right now. We should see them settle to full strength in a couple days, I'm thinking.
> 
> Woohoo! They're coming! They're coming!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> (You know, I can understand why I got so excited about the first group, yet I'm almost just as excited for this group. Interesting... Now back to our regularly scheduled Woohoos!)


And again - you see no DTV signals from D11 because:
a) the sat not parked yet
b) antennas doesn't oriented yet
c) TWTAs not warmed up yet
D) I don't see any signal on spectrum analyzer's screen ! 
E) D11 should yeld his start time for testing to E11 at 138.5W.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

LameLefty said:


> Maybe he's always been the "Ogre on the Inside" . . . hmmmm . . . :grin:


A good Ogre never reveals his sources...


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> And again - you see no DTV signals from D11 because:
> a) the sat not parked yet
> b) antennas doesn't oriented yet
> c) TWTAs not warmed up yet
> D) I don't see any signal on spectrum analyzer's screen !


I can't speak to the rest, but your (a) is incorrect, or at least incorrect enough. The small amounts of drift in the current TLE over the past few hours are insignificant for national transponders. Is it enough to interfere with spot aiming? Could be, I don't know. But D11 is "parked" from the perspective of most people, even if another small tweak or two are ultimately required.


----------



## SParker

I saw one poster say they got a 33 signal anyone else get a reading?


----------



## gulfwarvet

curt8403 said:


> maybe Smiddy has become an insider


or..............

a very lucky gut feeling :grin: 

good job Smiddy, thanks for the info.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> I can't speak to the rest, but your (a) is incorrect, or at least incorrect enough. The small amounts of drift in the current TLE over the past few hours are insignificant for national transponders. Is it enough to interfere with spot aiming? Could be, I don't know. But D11 is "parked" from the perspective of most people, even if another small tweak or two are ultimately required.


Post#4741 should tell you about a) condition. Uh ?


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> And again - you see no DTV signals from D11 because:
> a) the sat not parked yet
> b) antennas doesn't oriented yet
> c) TWTAs not warmed up yet
> D) I don't see any signal on spectrum analyzer's screen !


Does anyone know (these are meant to be serious questions posed in a fun format).
a) how parked does it have to be to be parked for testing and warmup?
b) how parked does it have to be to start orienting the antennas (and can the blips be orientation tests?)
c) could the TWTAs be warming whilst it was travelling? (Or could these blips be the warmup cycle?)
D) P Smith, does your spectrum analyzer record?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## loudo

SParker said:


> I saw one poster say they got a 33 signal anyone else get a reading?


I think it would be a safe bet to say that the testing crew has gone home for the night and I doubt if we see any more readings until they return, to work, in the AM.:nono2:


----------



## P Smith

(d) - nope, it's not a precision lab device what cost XX grands 

As to TWTA, I know how the process doing on ground tests, should be same out there.


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> (d) - nope, it's not a precision lab device what cost XX grands
> 
> As to TWTA, I know how the process doing on ground tests, should be same out there.


Fair 'nuff, I fully can understand the $$$$$ for a recording unit. 

Share, share, share  What is the process for warming up a TWTA, I'm very interested! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tuff bob

I saw a very brief 83 on tp 8 this morning, pretty sure i saw something on tp 6 as well.


----------



## kw2957

loudo said:


> I think it would be a safe bet to say that the testing crew has gone home for the night and I doubt if we see any more readings until they return, to work, in the AM.:nono2:


Yep, you're probably right.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

curt8403 said:


> maybe Smiddy has become an insider


Lucky guess for sure....


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Post#4741 should tell you about a) condition. Uh ?


Actually, that was pointed out in post #4502. 

It doesn't change my "close enough" though. It also doesn't make those short blips on the satellite signal tests that people have been seeing magically go away.


----------



## P Smith

You should remember how inertial platforms operating while an object maneuvering . So, we should wait for parking at that point, stabilizing/orienting the 'bus' and point antenna(s) to right spots then turn on power of TWTAs and start measuring where that beam(s) goes then tweak, etc. Just rough plan.


----------



## Drew2k

TWTA? Maybe spelling out an acronym the first time it's used every 5 pages would be helpful for lunkheads like me! It's bead enough it took all evening to catch up with the mega "It's alive" thread! :lol:


----------



## smiddy

I would suspect that the TWTAs have heaters already on considering the temperatures that high up, cold soaking would take a long time (read days) to make certain that the temperature was right as not to cause temperature shock. Though it is likely that they are not ready yet and could be a day or two before they are. It would be nice to have a feed on the telemetry link to see what they see.


----------



## davemayo

Drew2k said:


> TWTA? Maybe spelling out an acronym the first time it's used every 5 pages would be helpful for lunkheads like me! It's bead enough it took all evening to catch up with the mega "It's alive" thread! :lol:


Google is your friend. Traveling wave tube amplifiers?


----------



## smiddy

Drew2k said:


> TWTA? Maybe spelling out an acronym the first time it's used every 5 pages would be helpful for lunkheads like me! It's bead enough it took all evening to catch up with the mega "It's alive" thread! :lol:


http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf

Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA).


----------



## P Smith

It is scrambled.


----------



## smiddy

Bummer!


----------



## smiddy

P Smith said:


> It is scrambled.


Can you decern the symbol rate?


----------



## Drew2k

davemayo said:


> Google is your friend. Traveling wave tube amplifiers?


Yes, as are all the good folks here at DBSTalk, who I was counting on to translate "TWTA" beyond four other words that when taken alone I have no problem with, but used together really do point out how much of a lunkhead I am.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> I would suspect that the TWTAs have heaters already on considering the temperatures that high up, cold soaking would take a long time (read days) to make certain that the temperature was right as not to cause temperature shock. Though it is likely that they are not ready yet and could be a day or two before they are. It would be nice to have a feed on the telemetry link to see what they see.


Hmmm . . . curiouser and curiouser . . .

Methinks the ogre has been holding out on us!


----------



## crashHD

smiddy said:


> Traveling Wave Tube Amplifiers (TWTA).


= transponder ?


----------



## bobnielsen

smiddy said:


> I would suspect that the TWTAs have heaters already on considering the temperatures that high up, cold soaking would take a long time (read days) to make certain that the temperature was right as not to cause temperature shock. Though it is likely that they are not ready yet and could be a day or two before they are. It would be nice to have a feed on the telemetry link to see what they see.


Not necessarily. I recall when I was working on the early Hughes synchronous satellites that the combination of solar radiation and the vacuum of space can be managed to achieve temperatures on the same order of those on Earth. The biggest thermal issue we had was during the few days a year when the satellites are eclipsed for a short time. Of course, the devil is in the details.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> Hmmm . . . curiouser and curiouser . . .
> 
> Methinks the ogre has been holding out on us!


Maybe a little... 



bobnielsen said:


> Not necessarily. I recall when I was working on the early Hughes synchronous satellites that the combination of solar radiation and the vacuum of space can be managed to achieve temperatures on the same order of those on Earth. The biggest thermal issue we had was during the few days a year when the satellites are eclipsed for a short time. Of course, the devil is in the details.


I will have to dig to find out, though you are correct, there are multiple ways to manage thermal properties.


----------



## Ernie

smiddy said:


> I would suspect that the TWTAs have heaters already on considering the temperatures that high up, cold soaking would take a long time (read days) to make certain that the temperature was right as not to cause temperature shock. Though it is likely that they are not ready yet and could be a day or two before they are. It would be nice to have a feed on the telemetry link to see what they see.


They were certainly on during the in-orbit tests. No need to turn them off once they are on. Cycling would have a more detrimental effect than leaving them.

Ernie


----------



## smiddy

Ernie said:


> The were certainly on during the in-orbit tests. No need to turn them off once they are on. Cycling would have a more detrimental effect than leaving them.
> 
> Ernie


Agreed!


----------



## grump

P Smith said:


> (d) - nope, it's not a precision lab device what cost XX grands
> 
> As to TWTA, I know how the process doing on ground tests, should be same out there.


You could point a webcam at it and stream the video somewhere...


----------



## P Smith

Ernie said:


> The were certainly on during the in-orbit tests. No need to turn them off once they are on. Cycling would have a more detrimental effect than leaving them.
> 
> Ernie


Not true - by FCC rules a satellite cannot transmit signals during a move exclude TT&C channels.


----------



## Newshawk

P Smith said:


> Not true - by FCC rules a satellite cannot transmit signals during a move exclude TT&C channels.


That doesn't mean they aren't on. They could be in standby.


----------



## P Smith

Well, I'd like to hear some technical details of 'standby' mode TWTA:
Vstby, Istby, Pstby, etc


----------



## Jeremy W

Drew2k said:


> Yes, as are all the good folks here at DBSTalk, who I was counting on to translate "TWTA" beyond four other words that when taken alone I have no problem with, but used together really do point out how much of a lunkhead I am.


Essentially, the TWTA is the device that takes the signal being received from Earth and amplifies is so that it can be sent back down. The TWTA is part of the transponder, and each transponder has it's own TWTA.


----------



## Ernie

P Smith said:


> Not true - by FCC rules a satellite cannot transmit signals during a move exclude TT&C channels.


It's an amplifier. If there's no input (which is easy to arrange), there is no output. So it can be on without emitting any output.

Ernie


----------



## syphix

No one must be awake on the west coast quite yet ...nothing showing up yet...


----------



## loudo

syphix said:


> No one must be awake on the west coast quite yet ...nothing showing up yet...


They haven't had their coffee yet. You know how you need that in the morning to get going.
:coffee


----------



## geagles

Amazing, 114 vacumn tubes. Wow! Did not think I would ever hear of using that technology again. So are transistors a thing of the past. lol. But what the heck, an amplifier is an amplifier. If it works don't knock it. Get up Southern California. Get to work and do your thing. The whole country is waiting.


----------



## davemayo

Drew2k said:


> Yes, as are all the good folks here at DBSTalk, who I was counting on to translate "TWTA" beyond four other words that when taken alone I have no problem with, but used together really do point out how much of a lunkhead I am.


I had no idea what it meant either. Still don't, even though I now know what the acronym stands for.


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> I recall when I was working on the early Hughes synchronous satellites that the combination of solar radiation and the vacuum of space can be managed to achieve temperatures on the same order of those on Earth. The biggest thermal issue we had was during the few days a year when the satellites are eclipsed for a short time. Of course, the devil is in the details.


Slight aside: that's one reason why the shuttle orbiter, as a system, is so technically challenging. The avionics are mostly air-cooled (though some are mounted to cold-plates for liquid cooling). If the vehicle loses pressure, that's pretty much it, even if the crew are in suits. Many early unmanned Russian probes and satellites used to pressurize the avionics compartments because it was easier to air-cool the equipment than to do it with cold-plates and/or radiative cooling.

Part of the problem with comsats is the pointing requirements - unlike some other types of spacecraft, you can't use a "BBQ roll" mode to help with the heat load on one part of the spacecraft. Obviously, however, they've managed to work it out over the years.


----------



## FHSPSU67

I'm seeing signal flashes in high 40's on Tp's 3,4 and 5.


----------



## DarinC

P Smith said:


> by FCC rules a satellite cannot transmit signals during a move exclude TT&C channels.


But when is a satellite considered to be no longer "moving", and simply doing housekeeping? Yesterday's TLE shows it still needs some tweaking, but I wouldn't think that would be considered a "move". And we don't really know when it was "close enough". We only think this all just happened yesterday because that's when the receivers were updated to show those transponders. Since Boeing has issued a release saying they've handed it over to DirecTV, I would think any moving it's doing at this point to be considered housekeeping. The fact that people are seeing signal blips certainly supports the fact that it _is_ transmitting.


----------



## cashoe

We can assume it is "close enough" since we know that there is no problem receiving a signal from 99.225 with the same lnb's that are "aimed" at 99.00. 
Since 99.21 is within an arc between the two positions that sounds like "close enough" to me.

Oh yeah, there are those pesky "test signals" people are seeing to let us know it it within operational sight as well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

P Smith said:


> Well, I'd like to hear some technical details of 'standby' mode TWTA:
> Vstby, Istby, Pstby, etc





davemayo said:


> I had no idea what it meant either. Still don't, even though I now know what the acronym stands for.


I thought we had a separate "Nerd" thread now for the techno-babble discussions... :eek2:  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Theoretically, if max load is used, about 70 HD channels can reside on DirecTV 11 national transponders.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Theoretically, if max load is used, about 70 HD channels can reside on DirecTV 11 national transponders.


Aren't they using about 60 or so on D10 right now, with the rest off the other sats?


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Aren't they using about 60 or so on D10 right now, with the rest off the other sats?


Yes, but they are using more transponders too (assuming what we see in the test screens are correct). Some tranponders only have two channels and other have 5.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yes, but they are using more transponders too (assuming what we see in the test screens are correct). Some tranponders only have two channels and other have 5.


MPEG2 / MPEG4 mix?


----------



## Sixto

Best guess is that D10 has 77 full-time national HD channels and 35+ part-time RSN's.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Best guess is that D10 has 77 full-time national HD channels and 35+ part-time RSN's.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


I just knew you would have the info...


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> MPEG2 / MPEG4 mix?


All MPEG4 I think. The MPEG2 channels are on another satellite if I recall right.


----------



## DarinC

hdtvfan0001 said:


> MPEG2 / MPEG4 mix?


I don't think there is ANY MPEG2 on the Ka Sats.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DarinC said:


> I don't think there is ANY MPEG2 on the Ka Sats.


Neither did I...but I read a few posts in another thread where they were indicating some folks thought there were....it didn't make sense to me that it would be the case.


----------



## smiddy

I suspect we'll see the conversion of the last MPEG2 channels to MPEG4 in the coming days (read before September-ish).


----------



## syphix

Only channel I _really_ want is Travel Channel HD...is there space enough for that channel? 

When they move the MPEG2 HD's over to D11 as MPEG4's, are they immediately turning the MPEG2's off? i.e., are the days literally numbered?.... <30 days?

Can R15/R22's see MPEG4 SD channels (i.e., no more MPEG2 SD channel additions)?


----------



## smiddy

syphix said:


> Only channel I _really_ want is Travel Channel HD...is there space enough for that channel?
> 
> When they move the MPEG2 HD's over to D11 as MPEG4's, are they immediately turning the MPEG2's off? i.e., are the days literally numbered?.... <30 days?


I would say they are numbered, but I don't know when the actual shut off of MPEG2 will be. Probably will ocrrespond with financial months and contracts.


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Best guess is that D10 has 77 full-time national HD channels and 35+ part-time RSN's.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378





hdtvfan0001 said:


> I just knew you would have the info...


He always does!


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Can R15/R22's see MPEG4 SD channels (i.e., no more MPEG2 SD channel additions)?


R15's are MPEG2-only. I would think that the R22, being apparently based off the HR21 design minus the HD capability, would be able to see MPEG4 programming, if Directv were inclined to add new SD channels in MPEG4 for bandwidth reasons.


----------



## smiddy

LameLefty said:


> R15's are MPEG2-only. I would think that the R22, being apparently based off the HR21 design minus the HD capability, would be able to see MPEG4 programming, if Directv were inclined to add new SD channels in MPEG4 for bandwidth reasons.


This is an interesting thought considering the plan is the narrow down the number of LNBs to three, it makes sense to use MPEG4 for everything, then squeeze everything onto the satellites from 99 to 103.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Whoa! Let us not take this thread into MPEG2 v. MPEG4 on SD. There have been enough threads on that. And the word is that it is not in anyone's plans. 

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## smiddy

Sorry Tom, that wasn't my intention. Just kind of talking and thinking outloud, so to speak.

BTW, I'm still getting 0 for now, I have been watching both DVRs and both of their tuners...no boil yet.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

You know what they say about a watched transponder.... :scratchin

:lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> R15's are MPEG2-only. I would think that the R22, being apparently based off the HR21 design minus the HD capability, would be able to see MPEG4 programming, if Directv were inclined to add new SD channels in MPEG4 for bandwidth reasons.


Yes, the R22 is capable of receiving MPEG4 SD channels. There are a few of these which have been added recently using Directv 10.


----------



## ziltomil

P Smith is totally like "Who you gonna trust? Me or your lying eyes!?"


----------



## LameLefty

ziltomil said:


> P Smith is totally like "Who you gonna trust? Me or your lying eyes!?"


The Eagles "Lyin' Eyes" . . .


----------



## Tom Robertson

Guys, remember we're not here to talk about each other, we're hear to talk about satellites, specifically D11.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## DarinC

bobnielsen said:


> Yes, the R22 is capable of receiving MPEG4 SD channels. There are a few of these which have been added recently using Directv 10.


Sorry, I know this thread has plenty of OT posts, but are these "new" SD channels that aren't available to Ku customers, or are they mirrors of existing SD channels? I had no idea there were any. If it's the latter, I wonder why? Unless they are SD channels that are being transitioned off of 110/119.


----------



## drx792

DarinC said:


> Sorry, I know this thread has plenty of OT posts, but are these "new" SD channels that aren't available to Ku customers, or are they mirrors of existing SD channels? I had no idea there were any. If it's the latter, I wonder why? Unless they are SD channels that are being transitioned off of 110/119.


no they are SD locals for certain places. I believe D11 will carry these too.


----------



## Tom Robertson

DarinC said:


> Sorry, I know this thread has plenty of OT posts, but are these "new" SD channels that aren't available to Ku customers, or are they mirrors of existing SD channels? I had no idea there were any. If it's the latter, I wonder why? Unless they are SD channels that are being transitioned off of 110/119.


The new MPEG4 SD channels are only locals, and only in a DMA at a time basis. Some are/will be moved from 72.5, some are new DMA's being brought up in SD.

No SD nationals are being or planned to be in MPEG4.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## FHSPSU67

smiddy said:


> BTW, I'm still getting 0 for now, I have been watching both DVRs and both of their tuners...no boil yet.


Just a suggestion - what I'm doing to see momentary (15 sec) signals with regularity.
1. Bring up signal test for 99c and allow to run thru all 14 tps.
2. Press + to go to sat 99s


----------



## syphix

drx792 said:


> no they are SD locals for certain places. I believe D11 will carry these too.


NEW SD locals for markets/channels previously not carried.

Back to our previously scheduled programming...


----------



## DarinC

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for wandering OT for me.


----------



## LameLefty

FHSPSU67 said:


> Just a suggestion - what I'm doing to see momentary (15 sec) signals with regularity.
> 1. Bring up signal test for 99c and allow to run thru all 14 tps.
> 2. Press + to go to sat 99s


Um, won't that just show you signals from the spotbeams on Spaceway 2? Is there another step?


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> No SD nationals are being or planned to be in MPEG4.


Ok...that's the answer I was looking for. I figured that they may be adding MPEG4 SD nationals on D10/D11, but I can certainly understand why they wouldn't: not enough MPEG4 receivers out there....yet.


----------



## FHSPSU67

smiddy said:


> BTW, I'm still getting 0 for now, I have been watching both DVRs and both of their tuners...no boil yet.


Just a suggestion - what I'm doing to see momentary (15 sec) signals with regularity.
1. Bring up signal test for 99c and allow to run thru all 14 tps.
2. Press + to go to sat 99s
3. Immediately press - to go back to 99c & wait for all 14 tps to copmplete
4. If still no sig, press (- minus) to go to Sat 119
5. Immediately press + to go back to 99c
6. repeat.


----------



## Tom Robertson

On an HR2x, I just flip transponders. 

Sometimes I just let the transponders cycle thru a few times.


----------



## FHSPSU67

LameLefty said:


> Um, won't that just show you signals from the spotbeams on Spaceway 2? Is there another step?


Sorry, my computer posted prematurely
My complete proc is in post #4820.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> On an HR2x, I just flip transponders.
> 
> Sometimes I just let the transponders cycle thru a few times.


I flip tuners...still all 0's so far since yesterday....


----------



## PoitNarf

FHSPSU67 said:


> Just a suggestion - what I'm doing to see momentary (15 sec) signals with regularity.
> 1. Bring up signal test for 99c and allow to run thru all 14 tps.
> 2. Press + to go to sat 99s
> 3. Immediately press - to go back to 99c & wait for all 14 tps to copmplete
> 4. If still no sig, press (- minus) to go to Sat 119
> 5. Immediately press + to go back to 99c
> 6. repeat.


You guys have far too much time on your hands :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PoitNarf said:


> You guys have far too much time on your hands :lol:


Multitasking...you'll be glad to know I'm using the Slingbox to do it...


----------



## FHSPSU67

PoitNarf said:


> You guys have far too much time on your hands :lol:


But I just got a 56 on TP 4. Strengths have been increasing since mid-yesterday from mid 30's to mid 40's and now mid 50's. Always TP's 3, 4 ,5 or 6.

[edit] Just got a 56 on TP 2.
and a 60 on TP2.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Multitasking...you'll be glad to know I'm using the Slingbox to do it...


You too? The Slingbox rocks!


----------



## MIAMI1683

LameLefty said:


> You too? The Slingbox rocks!


 I am sooooo jealous. I really need a sling box. I was getting all Zero's last night, and I can't check them again untill after 6:30 eastern  .


----------



## drbonbi

Using an H21-200 I see on 99° (b) TP2 96, TP 3 87, TP 4 94, TP 5 89, TP 6 96.

I assume TP = transponder.

Dana


----------



## syphix

Slingbox saves my sanity...gives me something other than work to do. 

I feel like I'm sitting at a slot machine, though: hitting "Tuner +"....waiting....ugh. Hitting "Tuner +"....waiting......ugh.

Is there any rhyme or reason as to why one transponder might take longer to return a "0" than another? Some times a transponder will QUICKLY spit back a "0", while others might take a second...


----------



## LameLefty

MIAMI1683 said:


> I am sooooo jealous. I really need a sling box. I was getting all Zero's last night, and I can't check them again untill after 6:30 eastern  .


Don't be - I'm still seeing all zeros when I check. But the Slingbox does let me watch ISS EVA's and shuttle launches from work, so I dig it.


----------



## loudo

syphix said:


> Ok...that's the answer I was looking for. I figured that they may be adding MPEG4 SD nationals on D10/D11, but I can certainly understand why they wouldn't: not enough MPEG4 receivers out there....yet.


Are any of the current SD receivers capable of receiving MPEG4 signals??


----------



## Doug Brott

FHSPSU67 said:


> Just a suggestion - what I'm doing to see momentary (15 sec) signals with regularity.
> 1. Bring up signal test for 99c and allow to run thru all 14 tps.
> 2. Press + to go to sat 99s
> 3. Immediately press - to go back to 99c & wait for all 14 tps to copmplete
> 4. If still no sig, press (- minus) to go to Sat 119
> 5. Immediately press + to go back to 99c
> 6. repeat.


Lather. Rinse. Repeat.


----------



## Doug Brott

loudo said:


> Are any of the current SD receivers capable of receiving MPEG4 signals??


No .. R22 is it.


----------



## merchione

99(c) 0's 
99(s) 0's still


----------



## LameLefty

loudo said:


> Are any of the current SD receivers capable of receiving MPEG4 signals??


The R22, apparently, but that's it.


----------



## FHSPSU67

drbonbi said:


> Using an H21-200 I see on 99° (b) TP2 96, TP 3 87, TP 4 94, TP 5 89, TP 6 96.
> 
> I assume TP = transponder.
> 
> Dana


You want 99 (a), not spot beams from Spaceway 2 on 99 (b).
99 (a) has a total of 14 TP's.
And yes, TP = Transponder.


----------



## Matt9876

For the H20 and H21 it will be on 99(a) 14 transponders currently reading all zero. 

For the HR20 and HR21 it will be on 99(c) or 99(a)

(b)=spotbeam not D11 
(s)=spotbeam not D11 

Blips in signals have been reported "probably testing of D11" but every time I check on them nothing but zero.


----------



## Hdhead

FHSPSU67 said:


> But I just got a 56 on TP 4. Strengths have been increasing since mid-yesterday from mid 30's to mid 40's and now mid 50's. Always TP's 3, 4 ,5 or 6.
> 
> [edit] Just got a 56 on TP 2.
> and a 60 on TP2.


Do you live near 3-Mile Island? :grin:


----------



## FHSPSU67

Hdhead said:


> Do you live near 3-Mile Island? :grin:


Hmmm! About a 100 miles:lol:
Most important thing is I'm retired and have the time!


----------



## Jeremy W

geagles said:


> Amazing, 114 vacumn tubes. Wow! Did not think I would ever hear of using that technology again.


Vacuum tubes are still used in pretty much all high-powered transmitters, including TV and radio stations.


----------



## LameLefty

I have a theory about why some people can see these short "blips" and others cannot, and why some can see them by repeatedly flipping from tuner to tuner or sat to sat in the test screens: the Guide data stream has told the boxes to reveal 99(c) but has not told the boxes to actually reveal the test results, but by rapidly flipping settings as we are doing, some people have been able to get the box to reveal data before it sort of realizes it's not supposed to be showing it, causing it to display zeros again. Kind of like glitching a videogame where you can sometimes walk "into" a wall and whatnot.

Anyway, it's just a theory - feel free to shoot it down, all.


----------



## LameLefty

Jeremy W said:


> Vacuum tubes are still used in pretty much all high-powered transmitters, including TV and radio stations.


Vacuum tubes (or "valves" for my UK friends) are still used routinely in good guitar amps. My Fender Blues Junior is a fantastic little 15W tube amp.


----------



## mhayes70

I have 99 (c) showing up on both my HR20's with 0's. But, I get only 99 (s) and no 99 (c) on my HR21.


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I have a theory about why some people can see these short "blips" and others cannot, and why some can see them by repeatedly flipping from tuner to tuner or sat to sat in the test screens: the Guide data stream has told the boxes to reveal 99(c) but has not told the boxes to actually reveal the test results, but by rapidly flipping settings as we are doing, some people have been able to get the box to reveal data before it sort of realizes it's not supposed to be showing it, causing it to display zeros again. Kind of like glitching a videogame where you can sometimes walk "into" a wall and whatnot.
> 
> Anyway, it's just a theory - feel free to shoot it down, all.


Sounds like a good theory.

I've just checked sporadically and always get zeros. Haven't tried continual second-by-second checks. That could explain it ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Sounds like a good theory.
> 
> I've just checked sporadically and always get zeros. Haven't tried continual second-by-second checks. That could explain it ...


If Sixto's getting zeros...it must be so. 

I guess its time to sit back and await some sort of "sign" of more activity than the "slot machine" effect of hit-or-miss....maybe we can start to focus on the speculation of the first activity with D11. I'm of the believe that the offloading of the MPEG2 HD channels to the new bird into MPEG4 might be one item...channel by channel.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Nice in theory, but my gut tells me DIRECTV would tell the receivers to just display N/A instead.


----------



## syphix

mhayes70 said:


> I have 99 (c) showing up on both my HR20's with 0's. But, I get only 99 (s) and no 99 (c) on my HR21.


Hmm. Try rebooting the HR21 to get fresh guide data...and 99(c).


----------



## grump

LameLefty said:


> I have a theory about why some people can see these short "blips" and others cannot, and why some can see them by repeatedly flipping from tuner to tuner or sat to sat in the test screens: the Guide data stream has told the boxes to reveal 99(c) but has not told the boxes to actually reveal the test results, but by rapidly flipping settings as we are doing, some people have been able to get the box to reveal data before it sort of realizes it's not supposed to be showing it, causing it to display zeros again. Kind of like glitching a videogame where you can sometimes walk "into" a wall and whatnot.
> 
> Anyway, it's just a theory - feel free to shoot it down, all.


Equally likely is that it's a bug showing a partial result from the satellite you are switching from.


----------



## tunce

I got 97 on TP6 for 99(c) on my HR20!


----------



## tunce

...now a 91 on TP2!


----------



## levibluewa

here  ...on all tps (99a, h20-100)


----------



## tunce

Of course now I get all zeros - but that's to be expected.


----------



## tunce

89 on TP5.

Just to inform y'all.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since different folks are getting different transponder activity at different times on different units...perhaps...

It might be the right time to look to *only* get reports from folks who have some level of steady transponder activty.


----------



## waynebtx

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since different folks are getting different transponder activity at different times on different units...perhaps...
> 
> It might be the right time to look to *only* get reports from folks who have some level of steady transponder activty.


Mine are steady at zero.


----------



## Curtis0620

Do you think they are getting things ready for tomorrow? It is Wednesday.


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Vacuum tubes (or "valves" for my UK friends) are still used routinely in good guitar amps. My Fender Blues Junior is a fantastic little 15W tube amp.


Unfortunately, there aren't that many vacuum tube manufacturers left. Most of the current ones are in China or Russia.


----------



## syphix

How can the same people get numbers repeatedly, but others can't get anything at all?? Weird....


----------



## tunce

Curtis0620 said:


> Do you think they are getting things ready for tomorrow? It is Wednesday.


I would not think so - to quick.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

waynebtx said:


> Mine are steady at zero.


There's one in every crowd...  

One could make a case than a "reading" of 0 is a non-reading.....


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Unfortunately, there aren't that many vacuum tube manufacturers left. Most of the current ones are in China or Russia.


Yep. That's probably why Fender just bought Groove Tubes last month.

Steady on zeros here too.


----------



## timmac

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There's one in every crowd...
> 
> One could make a case than a "reading" of 0 is a non-reading..... [/QUOTE
> 
> Albeit, not a very good case. Zero is a value. For instance.. could you tell me what your transponders are reading right now? Would you answer zero or no reading?
> 
> Who put that in the muffin house?


----------



## DarinC

LameLefty said:


> I have a theory about why some people can see these short "blips" and others cannot...


Personally, I think it's just luck of the draw. The receivers can only test one transponder at a time. I think it's just luck of having a transponder briefly active while the receiver is looking at that particular one. I've only had the HR21 for a few weeks, so maybe there's a feature I'm not aware of, but to the best of my knowledge they scan the whole block. If there was a way to lock it to looking at one transponder like the older receivers did, perhaps there'd be more consistent reports if everyone watched the same one. Again, just assuming the new ones can't based on what I remember in the signal strength screen. If the satellite isn't quite properly oriented yet, it could also affect some on the fringe. I haven't even had my TV on at all this week, so I could say if I've gotten any "hits" or not.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

*Technocrat quiz of the day:*

Since the 99 Sat and the 103 sat are theoretically about equadistant from the 101 sat...should be expect signal levels comparable to the 103 transponders when D11 is activated?

*(Or alternative question # 2...how much wood could a woodchuck chuck...?)*


----------



## Darkscream

Okay - A Quick Question..

Not to doubt the voracity of these blip signals or anything but...

What is the point at this time for D* to even bother trying to hide these signals when they could have done so much more efficently by simply not letting thse 99c signal screens be seen at this point.

What is the point of any subterfuge with regard to these signals ?


Personally I have no blips and I ( for one) would feel a lot better if Sixto, Lame Lefty or Tom were the ones reporting seeing them.

Not to offend anyone of course


----------



## msmith

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *(Or alternative question # 2...how much wood could a woodchuck chuck...?)*


As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood.


----------



## merchione

Darkscream said:


> .....
> Personally I have no blips and I ( for one) would feel a lot better if Sixto, Lame Lefty or Tom were the ones reporting seeing them.
> 
> Not to offend anyone of course


*2ND*


----------



## Tom Robertson

Darkscream said:


> Okay - A Quick Question..
> 
> Not to doubt the voracity of these blip signals or anything but...
> 
> What is the point at this time for D* to even bother trying to hide these signals when they could have done so much more efficently by simply not letting thse 99c signal screens be seen at this point.
> 
> What is the point of any subterfuge with regard to these signals ?
> 
> Personally I have no blips and I ( for one) would feel a lot better if Sixto, Lame Lefty or Tom were the ones reporting seeing them.
> 
> Not to offend anyone of course


I thought I had reported seeing blips. 

I had a blip on TP7 this morning, several on various TPs yesterday. I don't bother reporting each as they disappear faster than even Earl can type... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MikeR7

Tom Robertson said:


> I thought I had reported seeing blips.
> 
> I had a blip on TP7 this morning, several on various TPs yesterday. I don't bother reporting each as they disappear faster than even Earl can type...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Who is this Earl you speak of?:lol:


----------



## Darkscream

Okay then that is good enough for me 

However - why are they blips and why are they trying to suppress anyone seeing them ( if they are ).

Sometimes all this cloak and dagger is getting a little bit irrational - IMO.



Tom Robertson said:


> I thought I had reported seeing blips.
> 
> I had a blip on TP7 this morning, several on various TPs yesterday. I don't bother reporting each as they disappear faster than even Earl can type...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Hdhead

Darkscream said:


> What is the point at this time for D* to even bother trying to hide these signals when they could have done so much more efficently by simply not letting thse 99c signal screens be seen at this point.


I think D* views this forum as a free instantaneous verification service to ensure that the signal strength is strong and evenly distributed from coast to coast. Therefore they want us to see there testing so they can better tweak and calibrate their equipment. And maybe even throw us a curve ball or two!


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> Nice in theory, but my gut tells me DIRECTV would tell the receivers to just display N/A instead.


OK, there is a proposal:
- ask nicely Doug Brott to create new poll with using his nice application/DB what show on US map our info
- all ppl reporting the 'blips' must fill out that data entry form
- we will see where are the 'signals' exist.

I'm pretty sure, the result will reveal:
- most of the observarion located close to big cities, airfields, military facility, electrical stations, radars, etc.


----------



## MikeR7

P Smith said:


> OK, there is a proposal:
> - ask nicely Doug Brott to create new poll with using his nice application/DB what show on US map our info
> - all ppl reporting the 'blips' must fill out that data entry form
> - we will see where are the 'signals' exist.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, the result will reveal:
> - most of the observarion located close to big cities, airfields, military facility, electrical stations, radars, etc.


Non of those here where I live. How close are you thinking to an airfield?


----------



## katzeye

P Smith said:


> OK, there is a proposal:
> - ask nicely Doug Brott to create new poll with using his nice application/DB what show on US map our info
> - all ppl reporting the 'blips' must fill out that data entry form
> - we will see where are the 'signals' exist.
> 
> I'm pretty sure, the result will reveal:
> - most of the observarion located close to big cities, airfields, military facility, electrical stations, radars, etc.


Ohhh that sounds like a challenge... 
time for a non-scientific study
maybe we could do a google map.


----------



## Darkscream

Maybe you are right and that would certainly seem logical.

However they might get better feedback if their testing was not so far playing hide and seek with blips and lucky dips 



Hdhead said:


> I think D* views this forum as a free instantaneous verification service to ensure that the signal strength is strong and evenly distributed from coast to coast. Therefore they want us to see there testing so they can better tweak and calibrate their equipment. And maybe even throw us a curve ball or two!


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> Nice in theory, but my gut tells me DIRECTV would tell the receivers to just display N/A instead.


Anyone remember when D10 appeared in the receivers, the "0"'s would fill in very quickly like they were put in as placeholders and the receiver was not actually checking the signal strength. The after we started seeing blips, it took longer to fill in as the receiver was actually looking for signal.

Edit: I am locked on 81 on TP 5. It doesn't show up on the screen with all the TP's, but if you go to the Signal Meters page, it is there. Just bumped to 92. Looks like they are testing power settings.


----------



## I WANT MORE

We are in for a nice surprise @ 6:00 AM EST tomorrow.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Darkscream said:


> Okay then that is good enough for me
> 
> However - why are they blips and why are they trying to suppress anyone seeing them ( if they are ).
> 
> Sometimes all this cloak and dagger is getting a little bit irrational - IMO.


If they wanted to hide them, we wouldn't see them at all. DIRECTV would tell the receivers to continue to show N/A at this time. It's actually a way for them to show that it's coming.  (Or to give them something to laugh at whilst we puzzle it out.) 

Why are they blips? My guess is that it is for a couple reasons:
1) To very quickly test for interference with other satellites in the region. Interference would be bad. 
2) To slowly bring up the power of the tests to measure the effective radiated power on the ground. They are not allowed to exceed the speed limit. 
3) To also test the edges and alignment. 
4) I also wonder if this is part of the "warm up" the equipment needs to go thru?

Mostly this is all being very cautious with their signals and their effects. Sure everything "should" be correct from the tests on the ground, but ... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MikeR7

they are popping up on odd transponders as we speak 
88 0 86 0 88 0 91 0
90 0 87 0 0 0 0


----------



## MikeR7

this cannot be radar!!!!!


----------



## MIAMI1683

hdtvfan0001 said:


> *Technocrat quiz of the day:*
> 
> Since the 99 Sat and the 103 sat are theoretically about equadistant from the 101 sat...should be expect signal levels comparable to the 103 transponders when D11 is activated?
> 
> *(Or alternative question # 2...how much wood could a woodchuck chuck...?)*


 In theory if you have good signal levels on all of the other sats. Then you should have goos signel levels on the 99C too. In theory that is. If not it's going to be time for a realignment. Unless of course you are like me and moving next month. So since I have to install my SWM I will be tweaking my signals a bit too.


----------



## katzeye

I started one in Google maps, search for
*Direct TV-D11 Transponder Blips*


----------



## P Smith

I still looking thru the thread and can't find rational [technical] explanation - why D11 would be in that mode when ppl around the country see the sporadic blips ?


----------



## MikeR7

wow now they are in the 90's


----------



## Tom Robertson

I WANT MORE said:


> We are in for a nice surprise @ 6:00 AM EST tomorrow.


Man, are you gonna get challenged for a pronouncement like this... 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sirshagg

I WANT MORE said:


> We are in for a nice surprise @ 6:00 AM EST tomorrow.


My $.02 - The odds of D11 showering us with glorious new HD tomorrow are slim and none, and slim is nowhere to be found.


----------



## MikeR7

arent you guys seeing these?


----------



## MikeR7

I think they are testing using me!! And they are not disappearing still there after a couple of minutes


----------



## flyingtigerfan

I have mid-80s on all odd transponders on 99c in South Carolina except 13.


----------



## P Smith

Tom, I would concurr - I saw how initial tests conducted at 99.2W by the D11 - TOTALLY DIFFERENT !


----------



## MikeR7

92 0 91 0 92 0 94 0
95 0 91 0 0 0


----------



## MikeR7

woopee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tvjay

I see signals on odd transponders too. Signals are pretty much on par with my 103(c) signal strengths.


----------



## Curtis0620

MikeR7 said:


> 92 0 91 0 92 0 94 0
> 95 0 91 0 0 0


That enough for 30 channels.


----------



## MikeR7

sorry, but I have to go back to work. Hope you all get them soon


----------



## I WANT MORE

MikeR7 said:


> arent you guys seeing these?


91 0 86 66 0 84 0 86 0 82 0 0 0


----------



## houskamp

Tom Robertson said:


> If they wanted to hide them, we wouldn't see them at all. DIRECTV would tell the receivers to continue to show N/A at this time. It's actually a way for them to show that it's coming.  (Or to give them something to laugh at whilst we puzzle it out.)
> 
> Why are they blips? My guess is that it is for a couple reasons:
> 1) To very quickly test for interference with other satellites in the region. Interference would be bad.
> 2) To slowly bring up the power of the tests to measure the effective radiated power on the ground. They are not allowed to exceed the speed limit.
> 3) To also test the edges and alignment.
> 4) I also wonder if this is part of the "warm up" the equipment needs to go thru?
> 
> Mostly this is all being very cautious with their signals and their effects. Sure everything "should" be correct from the tests on the ground, but ...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


5. Too watch and see how much havoc they can cause here :hurah:


----------



## mjlthuston

I'm getting 69-72 readings on TP 1,3,5,7,9,11 in Western MT.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Mike, this thread moves too fast for my typing (and checking) skills.

I'm seeing the same transponders and at roughly the same levels.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Darkscream

I am now a believer...

80's on 1,3,5,7, 9 and 11


----------



## Steve615

It's alive here too.
95 0 95 0 93 0 94 0
93 0 94 0 0 0


----------



## waynebtx

MikeR7 said:


> arent you guys seeing these?


For the first time seeing 80.s on the odd TPs.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The levels are going up and down...here's a quick peak...


----------



## Darkscream

and these are steady signals not blips.


----------



## R.I Matt

On my HR21 200 at approx 1:45 EST. 

95 0 89 0 94 0 88 0 
93 0 86 0 0 0




Mine are also steady signals.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Herdfan said:


> Anyone remember when D10 appeared in the receivers, the "0"'s would fill in very quickly like they were put in as placeholders and the receiver was not actually checking the signal strength. The after we started seeing blips, it took longer to fill in as the receiver was actually looking for signal.


Hi y'all!

I've been sick (as well as dealing with other numerous problems lately), but I checked my signals multiple times yesterday (when I wasn't at work), and though I didn't get any signals yesterday, it hung up on a transponder or two twice during the day yesterday when all the other ones went straight to "0".

The same thing happened with D10...

~Alan


----------



## Fish Man

Tom Robertson said:


> Man, are you gonna get challenged for a pronouncement like this...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Actually, a bunch of people in this forum are going to be ranting about how "DirecTV _promised_ us" something at 6:00 AM tomorrow, and that they "lied to us." :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

And the guys in the control room are all laughing at all these posts...

Guys in the control room, thanks for giving us an opportunity to amuse you. 

Or "thank you, sir. May I have another." :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jlancaster

PSmith just curious...are you getting any signals on your sa?


----------



## syphix

91 0 97 0 89 0 88 0
91 0 87 0 0 0

Lake Lillian, MN 56253

Tom - they might be laughing, or they might be reading...interested in the signal strength in different parts of the CONUS.


----------



## bjamin82

Holding Steady going on 15 minutes now...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Levels here are only in the 79-84 range...nothing showing in the 90's....

101 all 92+
110 all 90+
119 all 95+
103 all 85+

Turn up the power guys....


----------



## PaulieORF

I've got low 80s on most of the odd transponders. These are the lowest signals I have on any satellite, all others are high 80s to upper 90s. I know it's early and they are still tweaking, just figured I'd mention.


----------



## say-what

Well it's about time

95 0 94 0 92 0 93 0
92 0 92 0 0 0


----------



## MikeR7

OK, back at work. Since I was the first to post the steady signals, I am now famous like EaglePC too, right?:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## katzeye

I can't keep track, is everyone hitting on the same transponders? The odd numbered transponders?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

1-8 94 0 90 0 94 0 91 0
9-16 95 0 91 0 0 0 0


----------



## Darkscream

Yes - seems like that is the case.



katzeye said:


> I can't keep track, is everyone hitting on the same transponders?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

katzeye said:


> I can't keep track, is everyone hitting on the same transponders?


Yes...only different levels....may have something to do with their location....


----------



## drbonbi

From my H21 @ 1:50 PM, steady strength 99° (a):

90 0 83 0 89 0 83 0
87 0 81 0 0 0

Dana


----------



## Darkscream

even tps lighting up now


----------



## dbmaven

All TPs just lit up while I was typing

92 62 86 58 91 68 86 68
91 59 85 59 0 0


----------



## Darkscream

1 to 12 all alive now


----------



## syphix

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Levels here are only in the 79-84 range...nothing showing in the 90's....
> 
> 101 all 92+
> 110 all 90+
> 119 all 95+
> 103 all 85+
> 
> Turn up the power guys....


Glad to see I'm not the only one registering lower on 99(c)...even though 99(s) shows 98 at the strongest...so I know I'm aligned to 99...(granted, it's a spot beam...)

CRANK 'ER UP!!! 

Now:
90 89 87 84 89 88 87 86
90 88 86 83 0 0

Lake Lillian, MN 56253


----------



## Pop72&9

Low to mid 80's on all odd tp's. Let the fun begin.


----------



## Darkscream

and signals on even TP's getting stronger


----------



## johnb1963

evens in upstate ny h20-600


----------



## Hdhead

Holy sh** Batman.


----------



## Darkscream

1 to 12 all in 80's for me now


----------



## say-what

Wow, everything but 13 & 14 just lit in the mid 90's for me


----------



## flyingtigerfan

All TPs now up in SC except 13 and 14.


----------



## syphix

This is oddly deja vu from D10!! Getting excited over "numbers"....


----------



## waynebtx

My HR20 showing mid 80.s as will as my HR21 and H23, this is a good thing


----------



## TerryB

I put my cheeseburger down on the table and it started to steam.
I think they got the power high enough now!

TerryB


----------



## syphix

Rising a bit across the board...

91 92 87 86 89 89 87 88
90 91 86 85 0 0


----------



## PaulieORF

I'm a big worried about these low numbers, since I see others have much higher...


----------



## LameLefty

Wow! 

My 'net connection at home must be down or something so I lost my Slingbox for now. Good to see confirmation of readings though! Woohoo! 

Now, someone was saying there was no way to get new channels by August 1? I wonder if they would stick to that opinion?


----------



## bwaldron

waynebtx said:


> My HR20 showing mid 80.s as will as my HR21 and H23, this is a good thing


Same here -- mid to high 80's on 1-12.


----------



## bjamin82

95+ on all except for 13&14


----------



## waynebtx

flyingtigerfan said:


> All TPs now up in SC except 13 and 14.


Same here in South Texas


----------



## katzeye

LameLefty said:


> Wow!
> Now, someone was saying there was no way to get new channels by August 1? I wonder if they would stick to that opinion?


Did Sixto ever update the channels carried (or upcoming) thread? He was threatening to yesterday? It would seem that we would have some info on that before channels started appearing.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

PaulieORF said:


> I'm a big worried about these low numbers, since I see others have much higher...


You may need a dish realignment but I would not worry about it until we start receiving channels from D11.

When we started to first receive signals from D10 I had very low signals and they went up a lot once we started receiving channels.


----------



## ajwillys

LameLefty said:


> Now, someone was saying there was no way to get new channels by August 1? I wonder if they would stick to that opinion?


Personally, I agree with there won't be new channels before September. Not because they don't have the capacity but because of a little thing called the Olympics happening between now and September that they would like to have lots of extra capacity for. I bet they will do some seriously sweet interactive content for it given what they did for other recent sporting events combined with a whole new satellite of free bandwidth.


----------



## stansher

78-90 western Oregon


----------



## FHSPSU67

1-8 95 94 91 92 93 88 88 91
9-14 93 86 89 87 0 0


----------



## Hdhead

Reporting a GO for new channel launch here from western Wisconsin. High 80's on all transponders except 13 & 14.


----------



## LameLefty

ajwillys said:


> Personally, I agree with there won't be new channels before September. Not because they don't have the capacity but because of a little thing called the Olympics happening between now and September that they would like to have lots of extra capacity for. I bet they will do some seriously sweet interactive content for it given what they did for other recent sporting events combined with a whole new satellite of free bandwidth.


The implication was that the satellite couldn't technically be ready, not that something might pre-empt the bandwidth. Besides, with 12 transponders lit and (apparently) getting ready, that's up to 60 channels worth.


----------



## syphix

ajwillys said:


> Personally, I agree with there won't be new channels before September. Not because they don't have the capacity but because of a little thing called the Olympics happening between now and September that they would like to have lots of extra capacity for. I bet they will do some seriously sweet interactive content for it given what they did for other recent sporting events combined with a whole new satellite of free bandwidth.


Interactive channels, etc. take little bandwidth (see: The Masters interactive)...and the NBC owned channels already are in HD*.

Ok....many are: CNBC-HD, USA-HD, Universal HD, and NBC HD (in many markets). They others carrying coverage don't even have HD counterparts: MSNBC, Oxygen & Telemundo.


----------



## msmith

Did anybody look for test channels?


----------



## Darkscream

My guess for lighting up new channels in Wed. August 6th.

Mainly because that date that they want to close down them Distant HD channels seems like a rather arbitrary date (Aug 7th ) I mean why then and not Aug 1st. ?

And that means before the olympics as well.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Groundhog45

I'm getting 85 to 94 on 1 thru 12. And they're changing without refreshing or changing tuners.


----------



## I WANT MORE

88 91 85 83 85 88 81 82
85 80 82 79 0 0 Na Na


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

msmith said:


> Did anybody look for test channels?


I really doubt they have anything mapped to where we can see it yet...


----------



## bwaldron

msmith said:


> Did anybody look for test channels?


I don't have a test card


----------



## waynebtx

Wonder if they will do some test CHs like they did for D10.


----------



## HD30TV

Mid 90s and very high 80s on 1-12, 0s on 13 & 14.


----------



## shamus46

80+ on 1-12 here in Upstate NY. :hurah:


----------



## Curtis0620

Any new spots on 99(s)?


----------



## levibluewa

1-8: 86-88-80-82-83-86-80-81
9-16: 80-85-78-78-00-00-n/a-n/a

Yeah !!!


----------



## Sirshagg

msmith said:


> Did anybody look for test channels?


I think they were something like 480 and 481 for D10?


----------



## bwaldron

waynebtx said:


> Wonder if they will do some test CHs like they did for D10.


Less need to, since the install-related issues (including BBCs) that were anticipated for D10 should basically be covered by now.


----------



## mjlthuston

69 - 76 in Western MT. Does this mean I need a dish alignment?


----------



## HD30TV

1-8; 95 94 92 91 95 93 92 89
9-14; 95 92 89 85 0 0

[Tuner: 2]

1-8; 95 94 95 91 95 92 91 88
9-14; 95 92 90 85 0 0

[Tuner: 1]

(viewed from eastern Iowa)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Now getting all of them 77 up to 94....


----------



## I WANT MORE

msmith said:


> Did anybody look for test channels?


What were the test channel numbers for D10? Wasn't it in the 1000's? I remember watching a taxi cab game show (cash cab) on a test channel.


----------



## waynebtx

Sirshagg said:


> I think they were something like 480 and 481 for D10?


That souds about right.


----------



## HIGHWAY

low 90s i said it was going to light up on aug 6 with hd locals


----------



## bwaldron

mjlthuston said:


> 69 - 76 in Western MT. Does this mean I need a dish alignment?


I'd wait until things settle down, if you're good on the other birds.


----------



## PaulieORF

Michael D'Angelo;1691105 said:


> You may need a dish realignment but I would not worry about it until we start receiving channels from D11.
> 
> When we started to first receive signals from D10 I had very low signals and they went up a lot once we started receiving channels.


Okay, now I've got values for all TPs between 75 and 89, so things seem to be on the upswing!


----------



## LameLefty

Sirshagg said:


> I think they were something like 480 and 481 for D10?


I seem to remember like 9300 and 9301 or something . . . but anyway, I doubt they will turn on "public" test channels visible to those without engineering cards. The rationale for last summer was to throw us all a bone as well as to get reports of problems with BBCs, MPEG4 encoders for the new nationals, etc. I suspect they've got a lot of that stuff pretty well figured out now.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I really had the urge to say "Number 5 is alive"...but held back....

*D11 is alive....*


----------



## d max82

94 94 96 96 94 92 98 96
0 90 94 89 - - 

Some of you need to go peak your dishes )


----------



## drbonbi

Mine are all in the 80s and 90s now. My last 78 just went to 80.

Dana


----------



## FHSPSU67

I think it was 9300 for real video, 480-499 for test channels.
[edit} Sorry, LameLefty, I was doing too many things to see your post. 9300-9301 is correct.


----------



## syphix

d max82 said:


> 94 94 96 96 94 92 98 96
> 0 90 94 89 - -
> 
> Some of you need to go peak your dishes )


Based on YOUR readings, you'd need to....0 on Tp # 9?


----------



## bwaldron

d max82 said:


> 94 94 96 96 94 92 98 96
> 0 90 94 89 - -
> 
> Some of you need to go peak your dishes )


While they're testing you'll see some fluctuations -- and possible differences in different parts of the country.


----------



## LameLefty

FHSPSU67 said:


> I think it was 9300 for real video, 480-499 for test channels.


Yeah, that sounds right. The couple of 9300 channels had video and sound, the others were purely "virtual" channels at first, to see if you had BBCs installed and what not - either you saw the message that the box generated in response to the signal or you didn't. Later, they added a placard and accompanying music to those simpler tests.


----------



## DCSholtis

70s to the high 80s here for me on 99(c) with a few zeros sprinkled in.


----------



## d max82

I know I was just being funny.

Strange thing is as soon this thread started blowing up a minute ago my slingbox just quit working, possibly the dbstalk.com checking to see if I got D11 yet effect? :lol:


----------



## Darkscream

13 lit up


----------



## bwaldron

Tr. 13 just popped on with a reading here.


----------



## syphix

Before:
91 92 87 86 89 89 87 88
90 91 86 85 0 0

Now:
90 91 86 86 88 89 86 87
89 91 86 86 92 0


----------



## stansher

13 is now 88


----------



## imbie

This is all great news.. BUT I need the new Slimline3 dish to see D11. Anything on its availability?


----------



## PoitNarf

Weeeeeee 

Btw, 14 more posts till #5000 in this thread :lol:


----------



## SParker

91 92 87 88 91 92 88 89
91 91 87 86 95 0


----------



## waynebtx

LameLefty said:


> I seem to remember like 9300 and 9301 or something . . . but anyway, I doubt they will turn on "public" test channels visible to those without engineering cards. The rationale for last summer was to throw us all a bone as well as to get reports of problems with BBCs, MPEG4 encoders for the new nationals, etc. I suspect they've got a lot of that stuff pretty well figured out now.


Just checked and 480 and 481 are the BBC test .


----------



## loudo

Signal Strengths from Central Maine:


----------



## bwaldron

stansher said:


> 15 is now 88


15 is N/A on mine. 

Think you mean 13.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Since they are just lighting up the transponders for us to see...I suspect there may be some further tweaking going on/needed.

All of the even transponders, for example, appear to be higher than the odd ones - seeing this on multiple DVRs.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

TP 13 now up.


----------



## stansher

bwaldron said:


> 15 is N/A on mine.
> 
> Think you mean 13.


Yes, 13


----------



## hdtvfan0001

1-14 now lit up here...


----------



## bwaldron

14 now up.


----------



## BimmerImmer

In MKE it's:

88 95 88 94 89 93 88 92
91 94 88 88 95 0


----------



## Darkscream

14 is now lit up too


----------



## LameLefty

imbie said:


> This is all great news.. BUT I need the new Slimline3 dish to see D11. Anything on its availability?


No you don't unless your situation is markedly unusual. The AT-9 and AU-9 "Slimline" can both see 99 and 103 just fine.


----------



## stansher

14 @ 89


----------



## boelters

TP 14 now up!


----------



## johnb1963

all lit up here. I have low readings a few 60's, 50's and a 43. could this be because a heavy storm just left the area


----------



## bslange2

I have tp 14!

84 92 83 91 83 90 82 90

81 86 84 91 87 91 n/a n/a


----------



## Darkscream

Just the opposite here - not much but the evens are slightly lower.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since they are just lighting up the transponders for us to see...I suspect there may be some further tweaking going on/needed.
> 
> All of the even transponders, for example, appear to be higher than the odd ones - seeing this on multiple DVRs.


----------



## waynebtx

Yep just got all 14 lit up here now


----------



## bwaldron

johnb1963 said:


> all lit up here. I have low readings a few 60's, 50's and a 43. could this be because a heavy storm just left the area


Sure, if the clouds are in the way a bit.


----------



## VeniceDre

I'm at client's and I was checking the Tps. Surprised to see all 14 lit up. 70s-80s here.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

I have signals on ALL transponders. 84 and on up.


----------



## HIGHWAY

all are on


----------



## PoitNarf

We just passed post #5000 in this thread btw :eek2:


----------



## WoofusMaximus

Checking via Slingbox (central NC here):

1-8: 93 95 89 93 89 89 86 91 
9-14: 89 88 88 91 92 91

(Me, I'm just happy to get DTV back: had to get my old installer to install the newer dish, since the standard DTV installation guy wouldn't do it. Doh.)

WoofusMaximus


----------



## syphix

14 is my strongest....94.

91 93 87 87 89 89 87 88
90 91 88 88 92 94


----------



## flyingtigerfan

And that's all of them. 14 up too.


----------



## bwaldron

Another Festivus awaits


----------



## I WANT MORE

Are there DMAs that have already been notified that their HD locals will be lit up with the activation of D11?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since they are just lighting up the transponders for us to see...I suspect there may be some further tweaking going on/needed.
> 
> All of the even transponders, for example, appear to be higher than the odd ones - seeing this on multiple DVRs.


I hate to do the self-quote...but the posts here are fast and furious.

I just looked at about 20 other posters' results here...and there is a clear difference between the even number (higher) and odd number (lower) transponder levels.

I'm sure that's something they'll be working on...


----------



## bwaldron

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I hate to do the self-quote...but the posts here are fast and furious.
> 
> I just looked at about 20 other posters' results here...and there is a clear difference between the even number (higher) and odd number (lower) transponder levels.
> 
> I'm sure that's something they'll be working on...


Not all -- no real pattern here. if anything, my odds are a point higher on average.

But yes, they're working on things


----------



## Darkscream

Getting a lot more fluctuation on TP2 than any other one- goes up and down within a 8 point range.


----------



## bjamin82

95+ on all 14


----------



## syphix

Do even Tp's power strength affect odd Tp's? i.e., if they raise 2, does it lower 1?


----------



## HD30TV

(eastern Iowa)

[Tuner: 1]

1-8; 95 95 93 91 95 92 91 88
9-14; 95 92 92 88 96 95


----------



## hdtvfan0001

It is nice to see that apparently we have all 14 transponders working.

If I were one of the folks without LIL yet (not me...I already have them), and up near the top of the list...I'd really be getting excited about now.... :hurah:


----------



## richall01

BINGO !!

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


----------



## Curtis0620

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It is nice to see that apparently we have all 14 transponders working.
> 
> If I were one of the folks without LIL yet (not me...I already have them), and up near the top of the list...I'd really be getting excited about now.... :hurah:


Has there been any changes to 99(s)?


----------



## imbie

LameLefty said:


> No you don't unless your situation is markedly unusual. The AT-9 and AU-9 "Slimline" can both see 99 and 103 just fine.


It is unusual.. currently a SD setup, pointing at 101 only. Waiting to upgrade to HD as soon as slimline3 and D11 is available. I gotta lotta trees but can probably get away with 99 101 103. I dont want to mess with 110 and 119, so any hints on when slimline3 is coming?


----------



## PWenger

I know this is off topic, and I know this is premature, but I must admit, I just subscribed to the old "New HD Channels" thread. Can't wait to see that first email saying that Stuart has posted!!

I now return this thread to the people who know what they are talking about...with thanks to all who have helped me geek out here.


----------



## Sirshagg

richall01 said:


> BINGO !!
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=32729


Well, now it's official


----------



## Darkscream

Not for me - still 6 TP'S and really, really slooow ! 



Curtis0620 said:


> Has there been any changes to 99(s)?


----------



## BlueSnake

95+ on all transponders, WOOHOO!


----------



## BlueSnake

OK all tp's lit, what's the chance of new channels tomorrow?


----------



## jrodfoo

Hopefully 7/30 is the Magic Day  I doubt it for tomorrow. Probably a weeks worth of testing/tweaks


----------



## MikeR7

Just for the record, it was post #4880 that first spotted the steady signals.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## daniellee

Mid-Georgia

92 95 92 95 92 92 93 95
92 94 95 94 95 95

I think the storm last night knocked my dish into alignment.


----------



## VARTV




----------



## Darkscream

Congrats 



MikeR7 said:


> Just for the record, it was post #4880 that first spotted the steady signals.
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## DarinC

imbie said:


> It is unusual.. currently a SD setup, pointing at 101 only. Waiting to upgrade to HD as soon as slimline3 and D11 is available. I gotta lotta trees but can probably get away with 99 101 103. I dont want to mess with 110 and 119, so any hints on when slimline3 is coming?


I also have a lot of trees... I previously used a two dish setup: one to see 101, and one to see 110/119. I recently got upgraded to see the Ka satellites. I'm using the current slimline even though it can't see 110/119. Just because it has the LNBs for 110/119 doesn't mean that it has to be able to see those sats. It might be a little bigger than the upcoming 3 sat slimline, but it will let you see 99/101/103 TODAY, rather than waiting. If you want something a little smaller, you could always change it out later.


----------



## cashoe

I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring here and make a guess that we'll see some new stuff tomorrow. 

Why fire up all 14 tp's only to leave them idling for over a week. If the carriage agreements are in place, or were worded to allow for carriage on bandwidth availability instead of date specific, then let the channels loose.


----------



## JayPSU

cashoe said:


> I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring here and make a guess that we'll see some new stuff tomorrow.
> 
> Why fire up all 14 tp's only to leave them idling for over a week. If the carriage agreements are in place, or were worded to allow for carriage on bandwidth availability instead of date specific, then let the channels loose.


To put channels on them in a testing mode...test channels.


----------



## MikeR7

Darkscream said:


> Congrats


:icon_da:


----------



## Darkscream

Hard to argue with this logic and heaven knows this Bird has had more testing than you can poke a stick at 



cashoe said:


> I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring here and make a guess that we'll see some new stuff tomorrow.
> 
> Why fire up all 14 tp's only to leave them idling for over a week. If the carriage agreements are in place, or were worded to allow for carriage on bandwidth availability instead of date specific, then let the channels loose.


----------



## Albie

Now that D11 ihas lit up and is now *old news *isn't it time to start the D12 speculation thread?

O.K, so I am stuck at work and have no slingbox to join in the fun. 

Congrats to MikeR7


----------



## syphix

cashoe said:


> I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring here and make a guess that we'll see some new stuff tomorrow.
> 
> Why fire up all 14 tp's only to leave them idling for over a week. If the carriage agreements are in place, or were worded to allow for carriage on bandwidth availability instead of date specific, then let the channels loose.


Someone will need to find the old D10 thread, but don't be surprised if they turn them off tonight. And don't be surprised if they DO take until next Wednesday or the week after for actual channel additions. It takes more than firing up a satellite to get these things done.


----------



## jrodfoo

Yeah I think they will want to beat the Aug 1st Dish Date  So I'm going to say July 30th.


----------



## bwaldron

syphix said:


> Someone will need to find the old D10 thread, but don't be surprised if they turn them off tonight. And don't be surprised if they DO take until next Wednesday or the week after for actual channel additions. It takes more than firing up a satellite to get these things done.


Yeah, I would definitely be surprised to see anything tomorrow. I'd imagine they'll be taking time to test the uplinks and make sure everything is good to go before we consumers see the channels.

I'd bet next Wednesday...but hey, DirecTV, prove me wrong!


----------



## cashoe

Why beat the competition by a day when you can beat them by a week and a day?


----------



## Steve Robertson

I still say soon


----------



## bwaldron

cashoe said:


> Why beat the competition by a day when you can beat them by a week and a day?


Because if there turns out to be a glitch, the negative publicity and customer service issues would be ungood.


----------



## bwaldron

Steve Robertson said:


> I still say soon


I believe you're correct.


----------



## tcusta00

bwaldron said:


> Because if there turns out to be a glitch, the negative publicity and customer service issues would be ungood.


Ungood is a good way of putting it! :lol: It would be a publicity nightmare, to say the least. I also think there's close to no chance of going live tomorrow, a day after being handed the keys... but what do I know, I'm no rocket scientist.


----------



## Tigerman73

Let them have their we're number 1 advertising ready to go and then pull the rug out from underneath them just as they are getting ready to run it.....ooops better pull that misleading add.


----------



## feschiver

Directv told FCC 7 to 10 days after receiving it would start so July 30.:sure:


----------



## DodgerKing

Why hasn't Smith posted in a while? 


He is probably out looking for radars??? :lol:


I wish I was at home so I can check my readings. Oh well!


----------



## cashoe

Awww, Just trying to get others to buy in to "The Power of Positive Thinking"


----------



## Curtis0620

cashoe said:


> Awww, Just trying to get others to buy in to "The Power of Positive Thinking"


I think just an announcement of what they're going to add and when would be good enough for me.


----------



## ziltomil

GUYS! IT'S JUST RADAR! lol

my signals are between 94 and 96


----------



## loudo

Curtis0620 said:


> I think just an announcement of what they're going to add and when would be good enough for me.


Surprises are more fun. :lol:


----------



## DarinC

bwaldron said:


> Because if there turns out to be a glitch, the negative publicity and customer service issues would be ungood.


But from that perspective, mirroring the current MPEG2 channels is a perfect thing to start off with. If there's a glitch, well, it's just a mirror. Go watch them on 110/119.


----------



## bwaldron

cashoe said:


> Awww, Just trying to get others to buy in to "The Power of Positive Thinking"


No problem...but as we have seen in the past, some people get their hopes up and don't respond well when they are dashed.


----------



## waynebtx

ziltomil said:


> GUYS! IT'S JUST RADAR! lol
> 
> my signals are between 94 and 96


Thats one big radar to be hitting everone lol


----------



## rey_1178

my signals are low between 34-45%. do i adjust something right now or do i wait?


----------



## bwaldron

waynebtx said:


> Thats one big radar top ve hitting everone lol


Clearly a devious ploy by Dish!


----------



## Curtis0620

rey_1178 said:


> my signals are low between 34-45%. do i adjust something right now or do i wait?


Is there rain in your area right now?


----------



## PWenger

I say tomorrow...just so I can read a dozen or so posts at 6:01 am by certain people (*Cough* Harsh *Cough*) about how Directv promised us channels and they obviously they were lying/incompentent/retasking the satellite to spy on UFOs/only transmitting subliminal signals to shop at Walmart.

By the way, after I read all those posts, I plan on calling directv and demanding a partial refund for all the channels I wished I would get...


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> my signals are low between 34-45%. do i adjust something right now or do i wait?


I saw you post this on another site as well. I wouldn't worry. When D10 first started getting signals my readings where very low as well. Once we got live channels it jumped up to the 80's and 90's.


----------



## rey_1178

Curtis0620 said:


> Is there rain in your area right now?


no it's sunny


----------



## bwaldron

rey_1178 said:


> my signals are low between 34-45%. do i adjust something right now or do i wait?


I'd wait, but that does seem low compared to other reports from FL. How are your signals on the other satellites?


----------



## shamus46

1-14 now lit up here...


----------



## bwaldron

rey_1178 said:


> no it's sunny


But there may be clouds in the signal path. Are your 103c readings as high as usual?


----------



## rey_1178

DodgerKing said:


> I saw you post this on another site as well. I wouldn't worry. When D10 first started getting signals my readings where very low as well. Once we got live channels it jumped up to the 80's and 90's.


Hay dodger i won't worry about it then. thanks


----------



## rey_1178

bwaldron said:


> But there may be clouds in the signal path. Are your 103c readings as high as usual?


103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


----------



## Curtis0620

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


that's too low. You need your dish re-aligned. I'm in central florida and get 88-96 on 103(c).


----------



## Ken984

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


You need that dish peaked, 103c should be in the 90s.


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


That is pretty low. You will get a signal with those low readings, but may get more interference than usual. I would probably call to get a realignment simply because of your 103 readings.


----------



## bigref

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


58-75% is too low for a normal reading from live sats


----------



## rey_1178

bwaldron said:


> I'd wait, but that does seem low compared to other reports from FL. How are your signals on the other satellites?


103c is between 58-75%
119 from 97-100
110 from 93-95
101 from 88-97

good bad?


----------



## Tigerman73

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


I would say your low and need a repeaking as long as there aren't any storms off in the distance in your LOS.


----------



## waynebtx

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is ranging from 58-75% as usual.


If thoses are your usual reading from 103 then i would call in and get the dish realined.


----------



## rey_1178

DodgerKing said:


> That is pretty low. You will get a signal with those low readings, but may get more interference than usual. I would probably call to get a realignment simply because of your 103 readings.


shouldn't i be able to do this or is peaking a 5lnb dish difficult?


----------



## bwaldron

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is between 58-75%
> 119 from 97-100
> 110 from 93-95
> 101 from 88-97
> 
> good bad?


103c should be higher -- though the Ka signals from that bird drop from the 90's to zero quite quickly, I'd still want a little more fade margin than that. Shouldn't take much tweaking to get there, given your other signals are good.


----------



## dbmaven

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is between 58-75%
> 119 from 97-100
> 110 from 93-95
> 101 from 88-97
> 
> good bad?


All the others are good. What do you get on 99(s) ? (I'm thinking maybe a flaky BBC ?)


----------



## Curtis0620

99s is weak here in florida. Do you mean 103(s)?


----------



## bruinfever

I am officially sold on a slingbox. I just need to buy it before D12 goes up


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> shouldn't i be able to do this or is peaking a 5lnb dish difficult?


If you have the right equipment. It is not as easy as aligning those old 1 lnb dishes with the beeping hughes boxes.


----------



## rey_1178

dbmaven said:


> All the others are good. What do you get on 99(s) ? (I'm thinking maybe a flaky BBC ?)


no i just switched the lnb yesterday to the newer swm lnb. the signals did improve just a bit from before but it looks like i need to get up there and i'm guessing barely move it and see the reaction.


----------



## doctor j

Birmingham:

95 95 93 94 95 94 93 95

94 94 95 94 94 95

Ready and waiting

doctor j


----------



## doctor j

Birmingham:

95 95 93 94 95 94 93 95

94 94 95 94 94 95

Ready and waiting

doctor j


----------



## waynebtx

Think that the mid 80.s iam getting could be because of the hurricane we have out in the gulf.


----------



## merchione

Finally home to join the party!

92 93 92 94 91 92 94 94
92 92 94 94 92 94

West Texas


----------



## tunce

All - mid to upper 80's here.


----------



## Curtis0620

rey_1178 said:


> no i just switched the lnb yesterday to the newer swm lnb. the signals did improve just a bit from before but it looks like i need to get up there and i'm guessing barely move it and see the reaction.


Did you remove the BBC? I don't think they're needed with the SWM. are they?


----------



## MattDing

I wonder what the signal strengths are like in Birmingham, AL.

Anybody know?


----------



## dcowboy7

i copied this awhile back....is it still the same ?

Satellite transponders (32 total at 101º) (spotbeams dont matter 4,12,18,20,26,28) unsensitive, some 0's
[Most of your standard definition channels are beamed from 101ºW]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (3 total at 110º) (No spotbeams) unsensitive
[Several HD channels are beamed from 110ºW]
1-8 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA #
9-16 NA # NA # NA NA NA NA

Satellite transponders (11 total at 119º) (29 is a spotbeam) unsensitive, some 0's
[A few HD channels, local SD, Spanish package
17-24 NA NA NA NA NA # # #
25-32 # # # # # # # #

Satellite transponders (6 total at 99º(s)) (All are spotbeams)
[Local HD channels for some cities]
1-8 # # # # # # NA NA
[Note: these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(s)) (All are spotbeams)
[Local HD channels for some cities]
1-8 # # # # # # NA NA
9-16 NA NA NA NA NA NA # #
17-24 # # # # # # # #
[Note: these can be very slow to appear]

Satellite transponders (16 total at 103º(c))
[Most national HD channels]
1-8 # # # # # # # #
9-16 # # # # # # NA NA
17-24 # NA NA NA NA # NA NA


----------



## Matt9876

doctor j said:


> Birmingham Al :
> 
> 95 95 93 94 95 94 93 95
> 
> 94 94 95 94 94 95
> 
> Doctor j


Same here in Knoxville Tn


----------



## rey_1178

Curtis0620 said:


> Did you remove the BBC? I don't think they're needed with the SWM. are they?


yes i did. i went up on the roof and moved the dish 1/8 of an inch to the right. i now get on 103c from 87-96 and on 99c from 80-86. i think i'll move it a little more to the right.


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> yes i did. i went up on the roof and moved the dish 1/8 of an inch to the right. i now get on 103c from 87-96 and on 99c from 80-86. i think i'll move it a little more to the right.


Kuwl...


----------



## LameLefty

Be careful, there's more to peaking the dish than just altitude (up/down) and azimuth (left/right) adjustments. You also have to worry about tilt. Just make sure you can undo whatever you do if you make it worse.


----------



## bcushman

sticketfan said:


> if i can't get sat 119 because of trees, will i have a problem with the new sat. i am in vermont. one reason i look forward to the new sat is the movement of the stations frome the 119. i hope i will not be left in the dark again


I only have DirecTV at my place in Wells River, VT. Am in RI now - can you check and see if your getting signals at your location? Won't be back to VT until Aug 3rd and am going crazy here!


----------



## rey_1178

DodgerKing said:


> Kuwl...


i got one tp for 99c to go to 91. i think i'm gonna leave it alone already. let me tighten those bolts up. you think those numbers are good enough? this would explain how quickly i was experiencing rain fade. 103c now ranges between 87 and 96 99c from 83 to 91


----------



## P Smith

Here is real pictures of D11 tpns.


----------



## mike_augie

thats is fine to self adjust ..just a word of advised from experience ..mark your starting point when it is now just incase you get it moved to far or it "slips"


----------



## sadude39

My readings here in San Antonio are very low compared to what I am reading from everyone else....Am I in serious trouble here?

22 53 24 47 22 49 26 50
22 52 26 53 22 54


----------



## cebbigh

99c
1-94
2-90
3-87
4-83
5-94
6-91
7-88
8-85
9-93
10-92
11-88
12-84
13-94
14-91


----------



## SWORDFISH

I know this was discussed in the past, but I can't find the thread. My odd TP are ok, my even TP are a bit low. What do I need to adjust to bring the evens up without screwing up the odds? 99(c) :

90 79 88 80 86 77 91 76 
86 77 85 76 89 79

I also have the same problem on 103(c) :

91 76 85 73 82 71 83 68
81 66 85 65 83 62
81 xx xx xx xx 76

The remainder of the sats, all TP are in the 88-100 range.


SF


----------



## drx792

99c Readings:
97 97 95 96 96 94 95 96 95
96 95 95 95 97 96

AND ITS RAINING OUT RIGHT NOW!


----------



## tcusta00

sadude39 said:


> My readings here in San Antonio are very low compared to what I am reading from everyone else....Am I in serious trouble here?
> 
> 22 53 24 47 22 49 26 50
> 22 52 26 53 22 54


Now now, let's not start this... give it time, if your signals are fine on the other satellites you're going to be fine on this one too since it's smack in the middle of the rest of em. Premature speculation of disorientation is gonna give you an ulcer for no good reason. Wait til the thing lights up for real and then get an ulcer.


----------



## Matt9876

sadude39 said:


> My readings here in San Antonio are very low compared to what I am reading from everyone else....Am I in serious trouble here?
> 
> 22 53 24 47 22 49 26 50
> 22 52 26 53 22 54


If it's not trees or bad weather you need an alignment !!

Must go above 70 to get a stable HD picture, slimline should be in the 90s,sidecar around 85.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

wow... I go to lunch and look what I miss out on! 

:lol:

Good stuff though!!! Bring on the HD!


----------



## tcusta00

Matt9876 said:


> If it's not trees or bad weather you need an alignment !!
> 
> Must go above 70 to get a stable HD picture, slimline should be in the 90s,sidecar around 85.


It's not even live yet and you're giving him this advice? :nono2:


----------



## JohnJ

"if your signals are fine on the other satellites you're going to be fine on this one too since it's smack in the middle of the rest of em. Premature speculation "

You know I had this when I was younger, damn I thought I had licked that problem after 4 kids.

Good job of reporting to all.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

tcusta00 said:


> It's not even live yet and you're giving him this advice? :nono2:


Seriously guys... Let's not go tweaking our dishes just yet...


----------



## P Smith

msmith said:


> DirecTV would find them useful. They are aiming the satellite transponders, and these readings are from all over the country.


Don't worry - they have enough authorized and better trained ppl/setups around all 50 states.
They can't relay to such uncontrollable group!


----------



## rey_1178

i think i'm good guys. thanks all for the help  99c 83%-91%


----------



## msmith

P Smith said:


> Don't worry - they have enough authorized and better trained ppl/setups around all 50 states.
> They can relay to to such uncontrollable group!


OK. Let's ask the question another way.

Why does it bother you so much?


----------



## rey_1178

P Smith said:


> Who need the 1000s individual signal level reading ?!
> 
> ENOUGH!


hay, get off the roof and drink some lemonade baby


----------



## gizzorge

SWORDFISH said:


> I know this was discussed in the past, but I can't find the thread. My odd TP are ok, my even TP are a bit low. What do I need to adjust to bring the evens up without screwing up the odds? 99(c) :
> 
> 90 79 88 80 86 77 91 76
> 86 77 85 76 89 79
> 
> The remainder of the sats, all TP are in the 88-100 range.
> 
> SF


My transponders look a lot like that right now. a few 90s, mostly 80s, and some 70s.


----------



## P Smith

Tom,
Could you create NEW thread: "D11 signal level around the World" and move all the posts there ?


----------



## Mertzen

SWORDFISH said:


> I know this was discussed in the past, but I can't find the thread. My odd TP are ok, my even TP are a bit low. What do I need to adjust to bring the evens up without screwing up the odds? 99(c) :
> 
> 90 79 88 80 86 77 91 76
> 86 77 85 76 89 79
> 
> I also have the same problem on 103(c) :
> 
> SF


You just need minor dish peaking. It is fairly common to have one side of the TP's to be lower [ most of the times even ones ] when the dish is slightly off.


----------



## ub1934

*All 14 on 99c are in the mid 90s here .*


----------



## Paul A

Looks like the natives are restless...

More HD for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## iceturkee

Curtis0620 said:


> 99s is weak here in florida. Do you mean 103(s)?


our locals are on 103(s). i don't believe we have any locals on the 99 spotbeam!


----------



## Matt9876

tcusta00 said:


> It's not even live yet and you're giving him this advice? :nono2:


With confirmed readings like this from West Texas!!!

92 95 92 95 92 92 93 95
92 94 95 94 95 95

I think he may have a real problem with his low numbers.

Just wait it out and see if they improve


----------



## bjlc

boy there's not a dry handkerchief in the DBS Talk right now.. and not one of you is crying. 


I haven't seen this type of excitement since AOL allowed the first set of forums to have private room. 

unbelievable.


----------



## tcusta00

Matt9876 said:


> With confirmed readings like this from West Texas!!!
> 
> 92 95 92 95 92 92 93 95
> 92 94 95 94 95 95
> 
> I think he may have a real problem with his low numbers.
> 
> Just wait it out and see if they improve


You took those readings at the exact same time as he did? The bird isn't live yet - they've been flipping it on and off since yesterday. No need to tell him he needs a dish adjustment.

Let's everyone take a deep breath and *relax*.


----------



## Steve Robertson

It will be up and running soon


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> Tom Robertson ?


Why does it bother you so much? This is like Christmas morning to many of these people, let them show their excitement and stop telling them there is no Santa.


----------



## cartrivision

ajwillys said:


> Personally, I agree with there won't be new channels before September. Not because they don't have the capacity but because of a little thing called the Olympics happening between now and September that they would like to have lots of extra capacity for. I bet they will do some seriously sweet interactive content for it given what they did for other recent sporting events combined with a whole new satellite of free bandwidth.


No offense, but that is about one of the most illogical theories on the timing of new HD that I have seen here. They couldn't find enough sources for additional Olympic content (beyond the handful of channels already carried in HD that will have Olympic content) to require more than a very small fraction of the HD capacity of D11.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I deleted some duplicates btw.

I know you'll all REAL happy, but we probably only need a few confirmations that the readings are really happening. 

If you have 99(c) numbers below 60, consider a realignment but don't do anything just yet.

After things settle, if they are below 75-ish, you might consider a realignment--but settle means at least a few weeks from now! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## n3ntj

Last evening, I went into the Setup screen on my HR20-700 and looked to see what I could find on the 99(c) satellite regarding signal strengths. I got an 88 signal strength on transponder 6, I believe. All others were zero.

I would assume either it was a weird glitch or D11 is parked very near where it needs to be and they were doing some testing at that particular time? This was approx. 7pm EDT last evening.


----------



## d max82

bjlc said:


> boy there's not a dry handkerchief in the DBS Talk right now.. and not one of you is crying.
> 
> I haven't seen this type of excitement since AOL allowed the first set of forums to have private room.
> 
> unbelievable.


AOL private chat rooms....... Now those were the good ole days.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ajwillys said:


> Personally, I agree with there won't be new channels before September. Not because they don't have the capacity but because of a little thing called the Olympics happening between now and September that they would like to have lots of extra capacity for. I bet they will do some seriously sweet interactive content for it given what they did for other recent sporting events combined with a whole new satellite of free bandwidth.


There will be new channels before September. And more new channels in September (tho those might be mostly LILs.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## 2Guysfootball

hr21-700
Low on 99(c)86{tp7} tuner2
Low on99(c)88{tp7} tuner1
High on both tuners 95

H20-600 99(a)
Low 90 {tp7}
high 95


----------



## houskamp

This thread's done anyways.. time for the "New Channels Spotted" thread


----------



## FHSPSU67

n3ntj said:


> Last evening, I went into the Setup screen on my HR20-700 and looked to see what I could find on the 99(c) satellite regarding signal strengths. I got an 88 signal strength on transponder 6, I believe. All others were zero.
> 
> I would assume either it was a weird glitch or D11 is parked very near where it needs to be and they were doing some testing at that particular time? This was approx. 7pm EDT last evening.


I saw the same thing yesterday afternoon and evening (TP's 1-6), and also from this morning until they all lit up within about 5 mins this afternoon.


----------



## LameLefty

houskamp said:


> This thread's done anyways.. time for the "New Channels Spotted" thread


Pretty much. Now for true gluttons for punishment, check out the [mod edit for politeness (tom)] arguing about the definition of "snapshot" over and over again in the "Nerd Wars: What is a TLE?" thread. Un-fraking-believable. :nono2:

I'm done with that one, so as far as I'm concerned, let's bring on more HD! 

But before we leave this one entirely, anyone uncover any launch agreements between Directv and the major commercial launch provides for D12 yet? As we look, please consider that Proton has had a very bad run of luck since the D10 launch.


----------



## Sixto

Just got out of meeting and slinged in ... all 90's for transponders 1-14 at home ... will update post#2 in a little while ... yahoo!

BTW, no new TLE today ...


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> Just got out of meeting and slinged in ... all 90's for transponders 1-14 at home ... will update post#2 in a little while ... yahoo!
> 
> BTW, no new TLE today ...


Not to worry - I'm sure you weren't the only one checking.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Cripes! I've been watching Hertha Berlin v. Liverpool, pre-season friendly [which means slooow] and I've been missing all this excitement. Let me run back to the living room.

*I'm back, phew!* Running 74-81 with thunderstorms all round us. Individual readings bouncing a couple points, I presume because of the storms.

Can't check the HR20-100 in the guesthouse because our visitors have the blinds down for an afternoon snooze. Though that's a newer receiver and a slimline dish and usually runs a tad higher. I have an HR20-700, one of the first + a sidecar.


----------



## P Smith

Why I don't see any speculations regarding 16 active transponders while receiver's menu show only 14 ?


----------



## cartrivision

cashoe said:


> I'm gonna toss my hat in the ring here and make a guess that we'll see some new stuff tomorrow.
> 
> Why fire up all 14 tp's only to leave them idling for over a week. If the carriage agreements are in place, or were worded to allow for carriage on bandwidth availability instead of date specific, then let the channels loose.


I'd guess maybe some test channels tomorrow, and some actual new HD channel rollouts by 7/31. I sure hope that DISH didn't spend a lot of money on a new advertising campaign touting themselves as the HD leader when they roll out a dozen new HD channels in August.


----------



## Curtis0620

P Smith said:


> Why I don't see any speculations regarding 16 active transponders while receiver's menu show only 14 ?


2 spot beams maybe?


----------



## cartrivision

P Smith said:


> Tom,
> Could you create NEW thread: "D11 signal level around the World" and move all the posts there ?


Please don't. Those posts are completely on topic in a thread about the status of D11.


----------



## rey_1178

cartrivision said:


> Please don't. Those posts are completely on topic in a thread about the status of D11.


+1


----------



## Tom Robertson

Don't worry, I didn't and don't plan to create another thread.

I will ask again (since this thread moves so fast) that we try not post anymore readings unless you are seeing things below 60% right now--that would be a call for re-alignment consideration.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## oldengineer

I'm reading 80-90 on all 14 transponders. Its cloudy and rainy here.


----------



## ehollins

Is there any speculation on what additional HD channels that we'll get when D11 comes online? I know that it is pure speculation at this point, but I really want Comedy Central HD!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

ehollins said:


> Is there any speculation on what additional HD channels that we'll get when D11 comes online? I know that it is pure speculation at this point, but I really want Comedy Central HD!


Check out this thread.... http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Why I don't see any speculations regarding 16 active transponders while receiver's menu show only 14 ?


Posed such a question in your D11 signals thread... (where you first mentioned 16 TPs.)


----------



## cartrivision

ehollins said:


> Is there any speculation on what additional HD channels that we'll get when D11 comes online? I know that it is pure speculation at this point, but I really want Comedy Central HD!


I've heard that most of the capacity will be used for a new premium package.. "Shoppers HD Extravaganza" that will provide out of market coverage of every infomercial that airs on every local affiliate around the country. To make best use of the HD channels that will be used to transmit this programming, all the infomercials will be stretched to 16:9 format and upconverted to 1080i. Included in the package will be 4 different "shopping mix" channels.... one for coin shopping, one for knife shopping, one for jewelry shopping, and an "everything else" mix channel.


----------



## ActiveHDdave

Holy crap! You people are nerds!!!!


----------



## Tom Robertson

ActiveHDdave said:


> Holy crap! You people are nerds!!!!


Thank you.


----------



## puffnstuff

99c all below 60 , 103c 60-70's


----------



## hdtvfan0001

ActiveHDdave said:


> Holy crap! You people are nerds!!!!


I believe the term "Geek" is more trendy these days, thank you very much.


----------



## DarinC

cartrivision said:


> I've heard that most of the capacity will be used for a new premium package.. "Shoppers HD Extravaganza" ... Included in the package will be 4 different "shopping mix" channels....


Yes, I accidently leaked this a week or so ago. DirecTV told us "something better" was coming. They are very excited about it, and now it's about to be unveiled!!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

ActiveHDdave said:


> Holy crap! You people are nerds!!!!


I'm with hdtvfan... I prefer "geek"...


----------



## LameLefty

ActiveHDdave said:


> Holy crap! You people are nerds!!!!


We do try . . .


----------



## Tom Robertson

puffnstuff said:


> 99c all below 60 , 103c 60-70's


Definitely consider re-aligning your dish. 103(c) is stable enough to be a good indicator of bad. You'll have rainfade issues and other problems with sparkles or pixel blocking.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## fluffybear

low to mid-70's here on both 99 and 103, guess it might be time to call and have them send someone out to realign the beast..


----------



## puffnstuff

Tom Robertson said:


> Definitely consider re-aligning your dish. 103(c) is stable enough to be a good indicator of bad. You'll have rainfade issues and other problems with sparkles or pixel blocking.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I have rain fade issues all the time . The thing that sucks is, I have had them out here 3 times in the last 3 months and the guy never can get it right


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

puffnstuff said:


> I have rain fade issues all the time . The thing that sucks is, I have had them out here 3 times in the last 3 months and the guy never can get it right


Request a supervisor this time...


----------



## waynebtx

sadude39 said:


> My readings here in San Antonio are very low compared to what I am reading from everyone else....Am I in serious trouble here?
> 
> 22 53 24 47 22 49 26 50
> 22 52 26 53 22 54


Iam only 160 miles SW of you and Getting Mid 80.s what reading are you getting on your 103? if there low also i would check about a realinement. My 103 are in the Mid 90.s .


----------



## rrrick8

Getting all 80's+ here in Illinois


----------



## bjamin82

fluffybear said:


> low to mid-70's here on both 99 and 103, guess it might be time to call and have them send someone out to realign the beast..


95+ for 99c
95+ for 103c


----------



## sadude39

waynebtx said:


> Iam only 160 miles SW of you and Getting Mid 80.s what reading are you getting on your 103? if there low also i would check about a realinement. My 103 are in the Mid 90.s .


My 103 is only in the 70's, so I guess I should not be surprised at my low 99(a) numbers. It does sound like a realignment is called for in the future when they get the new satellite transmitting new channels. Glad to get a good comparison from someone in my area. Thanks.


----------



## Tom Robertson

puffnstuff said:


> I have rain fade issues all the time . The thing that sucks is, I have had them out here 3 times in the last 3 months and the guy never can get it right


Don't sign the paperwork until the numbers are above 85 on 103 and 99 conus. (have a soft drink handy for him too.) 

Good luck,
Tom


----------



## Radio Enginerd

cartrivision said:


> I've heard that most of the capacity will be used for a new premium package.. "Shoppers HD Extravaganza" that will provide out of market coverage of every infomercial that airs on every local affiliate around the country. To make best use of the HD channels that will be used to transmit this programming, all the infomercials will be stretched to 16:9 format and upconverted to 1080i. Included in the package will be 4 different "shopping mix" channels.... one for coin shopping, one for knife shopping, one for jewelry shopping, and an "everything else" mix channel.


Great response! :lol:


----------



## oakwcj

My D10 readings have always been in the 70-80 range. D11 is coming in about 10 points higher. We had a long discussion when D10 came on line about lower signal readings on the West Coast, particularly in Northern California, and with some suggestion that the Cal Amp LNB might be the culprit. I had a supervisor try to tweak the D10 readings, but he could not get them any higher. Even so, I've had virtually no problems with the MPEG4 channels, and plenty with the MPEG2 HD channels, even though I get readings in the 90's on 110 and 119.


----------



## waynebtx

sadude39 said:


> My 103 is only in the 70's, so I guess I should not be surprised at my low 99(a) numbers. It does sound like a realignment is called for in the future when they get the new satellite transmitting new channels. Glad to get a good comparison from someone in my area. Thanks.


Your welcome. Here to help where i can


----------



## PaulieORF

Okay I just got home. This is sort of weird. On my HR21-100 I am getting readings from as low as 77 to as high as 86, but on my H21-100 I am getting readings no lower than 86, and as high as 99 (these are readings on 99c/a of course). In the meantime, All of my signals on the other satellites are pretty consistant between both of my receivers. Any idea why 99c/a would vary so greatly, but not the others?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Swap BBCs to see if that changes things.


----------



## Ed Campbell

Aren't we due for whatsisname to post at his blog that he's heard a reliable rumor from a secret source that DirecTV will be lighting up D11, real soon?


----------



## katzeye

PaulieORF said:


> Okay I just got home. This is sort of weird. On my HR21-100 I am getting readings from as low as 77 to as high as 86, but on my H21-100 I am getting readings no lower than 86, and as high as 99 (these are readings on 99c/a of course). In the meantime, All of my signals on the other satellites are pretty consistant between both of my receivers. Any idea why 99c/a would vary so greatly, but not the others?


I have the same readings on my HR20-700


----------



## PaulieORF

Tom Robertson said:


> Swap BBCs to see if that changes things.


Just swapped one of my HR21's BBCs with the one from my H21, and I am still seeing the same numbers for each box, respectively. I mean it's not a big deal because my lowest number I'm dealing with here is 77, but was more curious to see if anyone else was seeing differences between their receivers.


----------



## houskamp

Ed Campbell said:


> Aren't we due for whatsisname to post at his blog that he's heard a reliable rumor from a secret source that DirecTV will be lighting up D11, real soon?


Not for a week or two :lol:


----------



## waynebtx

PaulieORF said:


> Just swapped one of my HR21's BBCs with the one from my H21, and I am still seeing the same numbers for each box, respectively. I mean it's not a big deal because my lowest number I'm dealing with here is 77, but was more curious to see if anyone else was seeing differences between their receivers.


My HR21-100 reads about 5 lower than my HR20-700 been that way since i got the HR21.


----------



## Steve615

Latest readings for 99 (c).
92 95 93 95 91 92 92 95
92 93 94 95 94 95


----------



## bigboyman2

Man, I'm glad I visit here often. All of our knowlege base says nothing about the D11 except the day that it launched. Nothing about it lighting up or any sort of tests(yet, anyway).


----------



## syphix

Surprised we haven't seen a post from DIRECTV-11 him/herself.

Last post (5/07/08):
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1587004&postcount=1967


> Hey folks - sorry I haven't been able to write in a while, but I am sure you understand that I have been very busy up here.
> 
> To update all of you, everything so far is right on the money - and I see that they will be putting on the brakes and parking me in a matter of a few days.
> 
> All of my systems are go, my power is nominal, and I am close to getting signal down to your homes and businesses.
> 
> I will be in touch REAL SOON.


----------



## sticketfan

my hr20-100's are reading all high 70's for the 99c, i am located in vermont


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PaulieORF said:


> Just swapped one of my HR21's BBCs with the one from my H21, and I am still seeing the same numbers for each box, respectively. I mean it's not a big deal because my lowest number I'm dealing with here is 77, but was more curious to see if anyone else was seeing differences between their receivers.


For what its worth....I suspect the numbers will probably get "tweaked" in the days ahead a bit as testing continues.

In checking my 3 HD DVRs and 2 HD receivers...

The 3 HD DVRs and 1 receiver all have:

2 transponders with a 78 (the low readings)
5 transponders in the 92+ range
7 transponders in the 82-89 range

My other receiver has:

1 transponders with a 79 (the low reading)
6 transponders in the 92+ range
7 transponders in the 84-89 range

My point is that *despite all of these being connected to the same 5LMB dish and SWM unit, the readings all vary slightly*, with 4 devices being pretty much the same (the odd number transponders are the lower of the 2 sets on all units, by the way). The 5th device has a slightly higher reading on most transponders.

I suspect that before we all get too zoned in on the levels, we wait until perhaps a channel or two are transmitted using D11, as there will be tweaking for a bit until that time.


----------



## xrobmn

rey_1178 said:


> 103c is between 58-75%
> 119 from 97-100
> 110 from 93-95
> 101 from 88-97
> 
> good bad?


Good:
119 from 97-100
110 from 93-95
101 from 88-97

Bad:
103c is between 58-75%

If you are a brave person, there are some documents and information in the Installation threads. I managed to get on the roof, not kill myself by falling two stories, and now get 90-100 on every sat and every transponder (couldn't tweak it like that again if I had to).


----------



## seern

For my H20-100, I have not checked the HR21-700 yet, I am getting between 81 and 94. Half the transponders are over 90. What has me real excited though, is that 99b has signals on 4 of the 6 transponders. I have never gotten anything but zeros on it before. One is 94, one in the mid 60's and the other 2 around 30. I have hope for the HD lil's here in Richmond. 

OK, HR21 now checked. For 99c, slightly stronger then the H20. For 99 b/s I have a 94 on tp4 from both units. Boy, I hope this means my HD locals soon coming from tp4.


----------



## LameLefty

Home now - my signals are all upper 80s - low 90s. Interestingly, my locals are also on 99 (tp 2 I'm sure) and my signal is about 97 right now under the same conditions. So that leads me to believe they're not tweaking yet.


----------



## bruinfever

LameLefty said:


> Home now - my signals are all upper 80s - low 90s. Interestingly, my locals are also on 99 (tp 2 I'm sure) and my signal is about 97 right now under the same conditions. So that leads me to believe they're not tweaking yet.


From what I understand, spotbeam signals are much stronger than conus signals and easier to peak. I only have high 70's to low 80's here in Los Angeles on 103C yet I have a 98 reading on TP2 for 103s


----------



## Radio Enginerd

syphix said:


> Surprised we haven't seen a post from DIRECTV-11 him/herself.
> 
> Last post (5/07/08):
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1587004&postcount=1967


I think the person behind DirecTV11 actually works at DirecTV now.


----------



## bwaldron

waynebtx said:


> My HR21-100 reads about 5 lower than my HR20-700 been that way since i got the HR21.


That is my experience as well -- my HR21-100 is a bit lower across the board than my HR20-700s.


----------



## henryld

Radio Enginerd said:


> I think the person behind DirecTV11 actually works at DirecTV now.


Naahh.... couldn't be....could it??


----------



## syphix

bwaldron said:


> That is my experience as well -- my HR21-100 is a bit lower across the board than my HR20-700s.


Hmmm....my HR21-700 is reading 99(c) slightly HIGHER than my HR20-700.

HR20-700's average: 88
HR21-700's average: 91



Radio Enginerd said:


> I think the person behind DirecTV11 actually works at DirecTV now.


WHAT?? Now, you might as well tell me that there's no such thing as Santa Claus, too....



Seriously, though...I completely missed that! But now see it clearly.


----------



## mgtr

I am as excited as the next person to get more HD, but, to paraphrase Winston Churchill -- Never have so many paid so much attention to so little.


----------



## Sixto

mgtr said:


> I am as excited as the next person to get more HD, but, to paraphrase Winston Churchill -- Never have so many paid so much attention to so little.


First provider in the galaxy to enable up to 150 national HD channels. A mighty big deal in these parts!


----------



## rey_1178

mgtr said:


> I am as excited as the next person to get more HD, but, to paraphrase Winston Churchill -- Never have so many paid so much attention to so little.


indeed. a very exciting day for us


----------



## bwaldron

syphix said:


> Hmmm....my HR21-700 is reading 99(c) slightly HIGHER than my HR20-700.


I don't have an HR21-700 to check with.

Point is, different receiver & DVR models appear to be "calibrated" slightly differently in terms of signal quality reported.


----------



## bwaldron

mgtr said:


> I am as excited as the next person to get more HD, but, to paraphrase Winston Churchill -- Never have so many paid so much attention to so little.


Oh, I've seen groups of people obsess over far lesser things.


----------



## uscboy

I'm getting everywhere from a 75 to a 64 on the transponders for 99c... shouldn't 
I be getting better numbers like I do for the other satellites, especially in the 
Southeast with a clear blue sky?

I do have a SWM installed.


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> First provider in the galaxy to enable up to 150 national HD channels. A mighty big deal in these parts!


Easy to say.
A little more difficult to prove.


----------



## DodgerKing

Interesting...My first two transponders have readings in the 40's while all of the others range from 74-95. My 103 is now in the 70 - 80 range, last I checked it was in the 90's.


----------



## tcusta00

uscboy said:


> shouldn't
> I be getting better numbers like I do for the other satellites


The satellite isn't live yet - worry when it's live.


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> Easy to say.
> A little more difficult to prove.


Very easy to prove.


----------



## VaJim

gettings some decent numbers (80's & 90's) in SE VA on 99c. 


Now what?


----------



## harsh

bruinfever said:


> From what I understand, spotbeam signals are much stronger than conus signals and easier to peak.


This assumes that you're situated in the center of the spotbeam. The signal falls off pretty quickly as you go towards the perimeter.


----------



## katzeye

Radio Enginerd said:


> I think the person behind DirecTV11 actually works at DirecTV now.


I don't want to sound naive, but are you implying that our old friend Ea...umm Santa Claus, was D11?


----------



## curt8403

katzeye said:


> I don't want to sound naive, but are you implying that our old friend Ea...umm Santa Claus, was D11?


He was not/


----------



## katzeye

curt8403 said:


> He was not/


Well it would explain why he had to go away. He is now out in space in Geosynchronous orbit! :lol:


----------



## msmith

I'm getting 82-91 here, evens a smidge lower than odds.

Hamilton NJ 08610


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

Is it "safe" to presume that if most of your other satellite TP readings are in the low 90's to 100 range, that once 99(a/c) is done with the tweaking, it also should be transmitting at those numbers?


----------



## cartrivision

Radio Enginerd said:


> I think the person behind DirecTV11 actually works at DirecTV now.


Nah.... the only times when Earl posted behind the scenes info, it was authorized and accurate. The posts of "DirecTV11" have been neither.


----------



## curt8403

katzeye said:


> Well it would explain why he had to go away. He is now out in space in Geosynchronous orbit! :lol:


the real D-11 person is and was and will ever be a rocket scientist (Satellite Scientist)


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> First provider *in the galaxy* to enable up to 150 national HD channels. A mighty big deal in these parts!





Sirshagg said:


> Easy to say.
> A little more difficult to prove.





Sixto said:


> Very easy to prove.


_Really???_


----------



## Sixto

Sirshagg said:


> _Really???_


Soon


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


> _Really???_


the galaxy is a really big big place. there are bound to be other planets that are inhabited with intelligent beings that have or had over 200 HD channels or the local equivalent.


----------



## rey_1178

curt8403 said:


> the galaxy is a really big big place. there are bound to be other planets that are inhabited with intelligent beings that have or had over 200 HD channels or the local equivalent.


!rolling


----------



## bwaldron

curt8403 said:


> the galaxy is a really big big place. there are bound to be other planets that are inhabited with intelligent beings that have or had over 200 HD channels or the local equivalent.


Yep. Though SETI hasn't yet detected any HD transmissions of CSI-Mars, it doesn't mean it's not out there...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bwaldron said:


> Yep. Though SETI hasn't yet detected any HD transmissions of CSI-Mars, it doesn't mean it's not out there...


From some of the passengers in the cards I passed going out to get dinner tonight...I *know* we are not alone here... 

But then...they probably carry around their own set of rabbit ears on their heads to get OTA... :lol:


----------



## Piratefan98

I bet they DO get 200 HD channels on Mars. And further, they probably don't PAY for leased equipment, and they probably don't have 24 MONTH COMMITMENTS, and the installers probably show up ON TIME. And those martian CSR's ..... honest and forthright, to a fault.

Oh, for life on Mars.

Jeff


----------



## syphix

Aliens don't broadcast in HD. They broadcast in hologram.

And we will, too....."soon".


----------



## Sirshagg

curt8403 said:


> the galaxy is a really big big place. there are bound to be other planets that are inhabited with intelligent beings that have or had over 200 HD channels or the local equivalent.


Thank you.


----------



## houskamp

Piratefan98 said:


> I bet they DO get 200 HD channels on Mars. And further, they probably don't PAY for leased equipment, and they probably don't have 24 MONTH COMMITMENTS, and the installers probably show up ON TIME. And those martian CSR's ..... honest and forthright, to a fault.
> 
> Oh, for life on Mars.
> 
> Jeff


can't breathe there but thats just a minor problem :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So anyway.......

Hear anything new about D11 lately.....................................


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway.......
> 
> Hear anything new about D11 lately.....................................


no. the same old signals coming in after being parked at 99 for so long. we need progress people!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway.......
> 
> Hear anything new about D11 lately.....................................


I hear it's broadcasting in 1080p... but only former DirecTV customers can receive it.. :sure:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> I hear it's broadcasting in 1080p... but only former DirecTV customers can receive it.. :sure:


OOOOooooooooooooo....no TurboHD for you young man.


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> OOOOooooooooooooo....no TurboHD for you young man.


how fast is turbo hd? :heybaby:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

rey_1178 said:


> how fast is turbo hd? :heybaby:


Fast...really fast.....and your Samsung would really like it...


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So anyway.......
> 
> Hear anything new about D11 lately.....................................


Well, I was wondering earlier eek2: :nono2: :nono:   ) and a thought occured to me eek2: :nono2: :nono:   ).

Is D10 full?

Don't get me wrong, I seriously doubt that we'll be getting new channels tomorrow (though I would LOVE to see next week's episode of "The Middleman" in HD instead of SD), as well as seriously doubting we'll see any MPEG4 mirrors of MPEG2 channels tomorrow, BUT could DirecTV have left some free space on D10 (just in case) until D11 got parked?

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

AirRocker said:


> I hear it's broadcasting in 1080p... but only former DirecTV customers can receive it.. :sure:


I thought that referred to the number of Peas in the split pea soup. as in 1,080 peas


----------



## Doug Brott

Oh my .. folks are just gonna be slap happy for a while I think ..


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> BUT could DirecTV have left some free space on D10 (just in case) until D11 got parked?
> 
> ~Alan


I'm sure its not fully loaded...but.....some of the stuff on there will be off-loaded to D11, so they'll both have some "spare tire" space when all the channel additions/changes are done.


----------



## syphix

Alan Gordon said:


> Is D10 full?


Speculation of D10's fullness goes both ways: some say yes, and proof is the turning off of PPV-HD's when sports channels begin lighting up for multiple games. Others say no...and, well....give almost no "proof" at all. 

I'm guessing it is full...at least on its CONUS beams.


----------



## rey_1178

this thread is getting full


----------



## Paul A

mgtr said:


> I am as excited as the next person to get more HD, but, to paraphrase Winston Churchill -- Never have so many paid so much attention to so little.


Good smokes, those Winstons and Churchills

Smoke em if you got em.

Now D11, it's time to light em up!!!

More HD: Nominal


----------



## VeniceDre

Just got back home. Mid to high 80s on my AT9 Sidecar in So Cal.


----------



## curt8403

Piratefan98 said:


> I bet they DO get 200 HD channels on Mars. And further, they probably don't PAY for leased equipment, and they probably don't have 24 MONTH COMMITMENTS, and the installers probably show up ON TIME. And those martian CSR's ..... honest and forthright, to a fault.
> 
> Oh, for life on Mars.
> 
> Jeff


they would have to have all that.

They have to stay out of the sun, it only burns their skin
Sky's full of poison, and the Atmospheres too thin.


----------



## Alan Gordon

curt8403 said:


> they would have to have all that.
> 
> They have to stay out of the sun, it only burns their skin
> Sky's full of poison, and the Atmospheres too thin.


You're assuming they have skin?
You're assuming they don't breath poison?
You're assuming they need a heavy atmosphere?

*EDIT:* WHOOPS! I get it now...

BTW, thanks folks for the info on D10.

~Alan


----------



## purtman

Doug Brott said:


> Oh my .. folks are just gonna be slap happy for a while I think ..


Too late. They're already there.


----------



## purtman

Signals from 82-89 in Kansas City.


----------



## Cable_X

purtman said:


> Signals from 82-89 in Kansas City.


Same here and the sky is very overcast!


----------



## DarinC

syphix said:


> I'm guessing it is full...at least on its CONUS beams.


Oh no, they could certainly cram a TON more on there. But not without making them look like crap.


----------



## markp

Rochester, New York checking in....(Fairport, NY 14450 to be exact)

My HR21 readings are as follows...mostly cloudy at 8:25PM

94 93 92 91 90 90 91 91
91 85 87 87 85 89

Looks like I may be in good shape. Now bring me my HD Locals  


P.S. Any other Rochesterians out there?


----------



## psweig

I hope I don't have a big problem.3 HRs are getting upper 80s on odd transponders only...

86,0,82,0,85,0,80,0
83,0,82,0,88,0, N/A N/A

.... and the rest is N/A. This is on two 700s and one 100.


----------



## pjsauter

markp said:


> P.S. Any other Rochesterians out there?


Down the Thruway in Syracuse. Hoping to get my locals in HD soon, too. Been a long wait since March 19!


----------



## VeniceDre

psweig said:


> I hope I don't have a big problem.3 HRs are getting upper 80s on odd transponders only...
> 
> 86,0,82,0,85,0,80,0
> 83,0,82,0,88,0, N/A N/A
> 
> .... and the rest is N/A. This is on two 700s and one 100.


Could be a multiswitch prob. What are you using?


----------



## LameLefty

rey_1178 said:


> how fast is turbo hd? :heybaby:


It made the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs . . .


----------



## VeniceDre

Quick observation here. D11 was in it's slot and tested before moving over to 101 for some other testing. Now it's back, and showing strong readings across the board.

With D10 there were a lot of hurdles for activation, MPEG4 testing, account activation issues that we don't have to worry about this time around.

*Tomorrow is Wednesday.*

What are chances we will see something tomorrow?


----------



## mhaines1

Signals all in high 80s to mid 90s here in Northern VA.

I want to thank everyone for all of the posts to this forum! I am a newbie to all of this and feel like a kid at Christmas time! This is SO exciting!


----------



## Sixto

VeniceDre said:


> Quick observation here. D11 was in it's slot and tested before moving over to 101 for some other testing. Now it's back, and showing strong readings across the board.
> 
> With D10 there were a lot of hurdles for activation, MPEG4 testing, account activation issues that we don't have to worry about this time around.
> 
> *Tomorrow is Wednesday.*
> 
> What are chances we will see something tomorrow?


All good points but I'd say unlikely for tomorrow. Possible but unlikely.

Next Wednesday seems likely.

Seems like they'd want at least a week to tweak, tune, and balance everything.


----------



## dcowboy7

VeniceDre said:


> What are chances we will see something tomorrow?


23.7% chance.


----------



## Alan Gordon

dcowboy7 said:


> 23.7% chance.


And there's only a 52.3% chance of that! 

~Alan


----------



## DodgerKing

Alan Gordon said:


> And there's only a 52.3% chance of that!
> 
> ~Alan


And a 90.2% chance of your 52.3% being correct...


----------



## Neural762

Sixto said:


> All good points but I'd say unlikely for tomorrow. Possible but unlikely.


Hey, I found D11's channel - check out 696-1 in the guide.


----------



## curt8403

Neural762 said:


> Hey, I found D11's channel - check out 696-1 in the guide.


the -1 suggests that it is an alt channel. test channels are normally in the 480s and 490s. maybe that is D11 sport lite?:sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

VeniceDre said:


> Quick observation here. D11 was in it's slot and tested before moving over to 101 for some other testing. Now it's back, and showing strong readings across the board.
> 
> With D10 there were a lot of hurdles for activation, MPEG4 testing, account activation issues that we don't have to worry about this time around.
> 
> *Tomorrow is Wednesday.*
> 
> What are chances we will see something tomorrow?


Perhaps I can put it this way--I'm not planning on getting up at 3:50am MT tomorrow morning...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## steveken

DodgerKing said:


> And a 90.2% chance of your 52.3% being correct...


90% of all statistics are made up. . Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## Sixto

Neural762 said:


> Hey, I found D11's channel - check out 696-1 in the guide.


That is funny!


----------



## steveken

he was being a wisebutt.


----------



## Dolly

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way--I'm not planning on getting up at 3:50am MT tomorrow morning...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hey Tom when should we be getting up early? As I remember it we had a few false starts with D10 :lol:


----------



## curt8403

steveken said:


> he was being a wisebutt.


so D11 is sitting at the bottom of San Francisco Bay?


----------



## katzeye

markp said:


> Rochester, New York checking in....(Fairport, NY 14450 to be exact)
> 
> My HR21 readings are as follows...mostly cloudy at 8:25PM
> 
> 94 93 92 91 90 90 91 91
> 91 85 87 87 85 89
> 
> Looks like I may be in good shape. Now bring me my HD Locals
> 
> P.S. Any other Rochesterians out there?


Alfred, Southern Tier.
Your signals make my signals jealous :sure:


----------



## DodgerKing

Neural762 said:


> Hey, I found D11's channel - check out 696-1 in the guide.


:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

"Statistician Blues" , Todd Snider






Statistician's Blues

They say 3 percent of the people use 5 to 6 percent of their brain
97 percent use 3 percent and the rest goes down the drain
I'll never know which one I am but I'll bet you my last dime
99 percent think we're 3 percent 100 percent of the time

64 percent of all the world's statistics are made up right there on the spot
82.4 percent of people believe 'em whether they're accurate statistics or not
I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt
I need another double shot of something 90 proof
I got too much to think about

Too much to think about
Too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about

They say 92 percent of everything you learned in school was just bull**** you'll never need
84 percent of everything you got you bought to satisfy your greed
Because 90 percent of the world's population links possessions to success
Even though 80 percent of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population
Drinks to an alarming excess
More money, more stress

It's too much to think about
Too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about
Pick it now

84 percent of all statisticians truly hate their jobs
They say the average bank robber lives within say about 20 miles of the bank that he robs
There's this little bank not far from here I've been watching now for a while
Lately all I can think about's how bad I wanna go out in style

And it's too much to think about
Too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about
That's right
It's too much to think about
Amen
It's too much to think about


----------



## Stewpidity

99(c)

85 89 95 92 93 86 94 90
91 88 94 90 95 91


----------



## Dolly

LameLefty said:


> "Statistician Blues" , Todd Snider
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statistician's Blues
> 
> They say 3 percent of the people use 5 to 6 percent of their brain
> 97 percent use 3 percent and the rest goes down the drain
> I'll never know which one I am but I'll bet you my last dime
> 99 percent think we're 3 percent 100 percent of the time
> 
> 64 percent of all the world's statistics are made up right there on the spot
> 82.4 percent of people believe 'em whether they're accurate statistics or not
> I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt
> I need another double shot of something 90 proof
> I got too much to think about
> 
> Too much to think about
> Too much to figure out
> Stuck between hope and doubt
> It's too much to think about
> 
> They say 92 percent of everything you learned in school was just bull**** you'll never need
> 84 percent of everything you got you bought to satisfy your greed
> Because 90 percent of the world's population links possessions to success
> Even though 80 percent of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population
> Drinks to an alarming excess
> More money, more stress
> 
> It's too much to think about
> Too much to figure out
> Stuck between hope and doubt
> It's too much to think about
> Pick it now
> 
> 84 percent of all statisticians truly hate their jobs
> They say the average bank robber lives within say about 20 miles of the bank that he robs
> There's this little bank not far from here I've been watching now for a while
> Lately all I can think about's how bad I wanna go out in style
> 
> And it's too much to think about
> Too much to figure out
> Stuck between hope and doubt
> It's too much to think about
> That's right
> It's too much to think about
> Amen
> It's too much to think about


!rolling We have officially crossed over to the Twilight (Sp?) Zone :lol: Or is it we are boldly going where no man has ever been


----------



## jodyguercio

AirRocker said:


> I hear it's broadcasting in 1080p... but only former DirecTV customers can receive it.. :sure:


Very true....:lol:


----------



## curt8403

Dolly said:


> Irolling We have officially crossed over to the Twilight (Sp?) Zone :lol: Or is it we are boldly going where no man has ever been


neither.. we are in an episode of a very old series called Quark.


----------



## Sixto

An item that's been bugging me for a long time. Related to the question about D10 being full or not.

D10 currently shows 16 national transponders. Originally, like D11, the specs and FCC Filings show the plan was 14 national transponders for D10 and D11.

D10 currently has 77 national HD channels and 35+ game-only RSN's. 

Assuming approximately 5 HD channels per transponder, they have room for 80 national channels. Maybe they're squeezing more then 5 when you have some HD channels with mostly non-HD content, and they do turn off PPVHD when the games are on.

So it does look like D10 is full.

Is it safe to assume that they enabled transponders 15 and 16 by taking frequencies that they had set aside for spot beams?

And now with D11 going "live", they'll take D10 back down to 14 national transponders, take those two transponders and re-use those frequencies within spotbeams in every market? and move those national channels to D11? and move many RSN's to D11 to remove the need to turn off PPVHD.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Is it safe to assume that they enabled transponders 15 and 16 by taking frequencies that they had set aside for spot beams?
> 
> And now with D11 going "live", they'll take D10 back down to 14 national transponders, take those two transponders and re-use those frequencies within spotbeams in every market? and move those national channels to D11? and move many RSN's to D11 to remove the need to turn off PPVHD.


I think your assumptions are sound.


----------



## paule123

Woohoo!

99(c) from Cleveland on HR20-700, 9:35 pm ET:

96 96 89 90 95 95 88 91
95 95 88 88 96 95 NA NA


----------



## Sirshagg

VeniceDre said:


> *Tomorrow is Wednesday.*
> 
> What are chances we will see something tomorrow?


7/23 - 2% 
7/30 - 75%
8/06 - 20%
Other - 3%


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> And now with D11 going "live", they'll take D10 back down to 14 national transponders, take those two transponders and re-use those frequencies within spotbeams in every market?


Wouldn't that depend on how much damage was done to D10's spot beams?

~Alan


----------



## davros74

Readings on my HR21-100 for 99(c):

94 94 87 88 91 91 87 87
89 88 88 86 92 90

This from eastern Iowa (Cedar Rapids).


----------



## RD in Fla

Just checked 99(c) on one of my HR20-700s, all TPs in the 40's, I'm in the 85-97 range on all other birds, including 103(c). Is it possible to have high numbers on all other sats. and be that low on 99(c)? I don't receive anything from 99(s) and I am located in SW Florida. Any thoughts on what adjustment to make to my dish would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Wouldn't that depend on how much damage was done to D10's spot beams?
> 
> ~Alan


All depends on whether they turned on the 15th and 16th transponders because a) they needed the bandwidth because D11 was delayed, or b) had spot beam problems which freed up the bandwidth?

Thinking more "a" then "b".


----------



## jaficker

Its coming alive in Lewiston, ID on 99(c)
61 70 58 61 63 69 59 61
62 69 60 61 65 67 n/a n/a


----------



## gregjones

curt8403 said:


> the galaxy is a really big big place. there are bound to be other planets that are inhabited with intelligent beings that have or had over 200 HD channels or the local equivalent.


Dish signed an agreement with those parts of the galaxy allowing eventual distribution of those channels when our technology matches theirs. Though not offered in some areas (Earth), Dish will count those channels as part of their HD package immediately.


----------



## DodgerKing

RD in Fla said:


> Just checked 99(c) on one of my HR20-700s, all TPs in the 40's, I'm in the 85-97 range on all other birds, including 103(c). Is it possible to have high numbers on all other sats. and be that low on 99(c)? I don't receive anything from 99(s) and I am located in SW Florida. Any thoughts on what adjustment to make to my dish would be appreciated. Thanks.


If your others are fine, I wouldn't worry too much. I had 40 readings on the first two transponders for 99c. I left the screen up for a few minutes and watched the numbers change, they eventually changed to over 80.


----------



## VeniceDre

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way--I'm not planning on getting up at 3:50am MT tomorrow morning...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Remembering the morning of 9/19 very well... A lot of cranky tired people in the chat room.

:lol:


----------



## pbg

question for the experts:

I have a H20-100 and thought I'd check my signals for a pulse on D11. As it turns out, I'm not even showing a 99(c) Got 99(a) and 99(b) but no 'c'. I rebooted the box but still no 'c'

any ideas?
thanks,
pbg


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Thinking more "a" then "b".


Hopefully!

~Alan


----------



## bjamin82

pbg said:


> question for the experts:
> 
> I have a H20-100 and thought I'd check my signals for a pulse on D11. As it turns out, I'm not even showing a 99(c) Got 99(a) and 99(b) but no 'c'. I rebooted the box but still no 'c'
> 
> any ideas?
> thanks,
> pbg


99c is for HRx models... 99a is for Hx models So you are good to go.


----------



## raoul5788

pbg said:


> question for the experts:
> 
> I have a H20-100 and thought I'd check my signals for a pulse on D11. As it turns out, I'm not even showing a 99(c) Got 99(a) and 99(b) but no 'c'. I rebooted the box but still no 'c'
> 
> any ideas?
> thanks,
> pbg


The H series boxes show 99a for D11. The HR boxes show it as 99c.


----------



## The_Geyser

curt8403 said:


> neither.. we are in an episode of a very old series called Quark.


I forgot about that show!


----------



## pbg

bjamin82 said:


> 99c is for HRx models... 99a is for Hx models So you are good to go.


thanks ...That makes sense - I think-

Nothing great here: 99(a)
60,78,51,70,57,77,52,69
57,76,56,70,62,80


----------



## boggaf05

Looking at 99a on H20-100 I've got 0's all the way.


----------



## purtman

Now if D* bumps a bunch of these new channels next Wednesday on July 30, how ticked does everybody think Charlie Ergen will be?


----------



## Herdfan

I hope they didn't spend a bunch of money touting themselves as the HD Leader.:lol:


----------



## Chaos

So, it looks like they've stabilized transponder strengths already. Who's got an engineering card to see whether they've put test channels up already in prep for a possible Wednesday or Thursday festivus???


----------



## TheRatPatrol

If we need to peak, which satellite should we peak on, 99c, 103c, or 101?

Getting high 60's on 99c and high 70's on 103c. I've never had any issues with 103c though, never lost any HD channels. Got high 80's and low 90's on 101/110/119.

Thanks


----------



## Deels1

HR20-100 (the rebooting never ends, til replacement arrives via FedEx tomorrow)

My numbers on D11 look almost too high.

99 (c)

99 96 97 96 97 95 96 96

96 96 96 96 98 97


----------



## bobnielsen

theratpatrol said:


> If we need to peak, which satellite should we peak on, 99c, 103c, or 101?
> 
> Getting high 60's on 99c and high 70's on 103c. I've never had any issues with 103c though, never lost any HD channels. Got high 80's and low 90's on 101/110/119.
> 
> Thanks


99 or 103. The beamwidths are tighter for Ka than for Ku. They should all track.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

bobnielsen said:


> 99 or 103. The beamwidths are tighter for Ka than for Ku. They should all track.


Ok if you peak those 2, will it mess up 110/119 though?

Thanks again.


----------



## Jeremy W

Chaos said:


> So, it looks like they've stabilized transponder strengths already. Who's got an engineering card to see whether they've put test channels up already in prep for a possible Wednesday or Thursday festivus???


Festivus is always on Wednesday, and Tom has all but confirmed that this Wednesday is out of the question. So it'll be next Wednesday.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> Festivus is always on Wednesday, and Tom has all but confirmed that this Wednesday is out of the question. So it'll be next Wednesday.


I'd be very happy to find out I was reading the wrong tea leaves...


----------



## Jeremy W

Tom Robertson said:


> I'd be very happy to find out I was reading the wrong tea leaves...


I think we all would!


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Festivus is always on Wednesday, and Tom has all but confirmed that this Wednesday is out of the question. So it'll be next Wednesday.


Yep, timing seems similar to D10 which showed signal on 9/12 and was originally to go "live" 7 days later. Gives them some time to get the channels balanced properly.

Be very surprised if they rushed any channels tomorrow. No need to rush.

Getting those channels up before Dish's 8/1 new channels is probably a priority, and Wednesday 7/30 works out well.


----------



## davemayo

Sixto said:


> Yep, timing seems similar to D10 which showed signal on 9/12 and was originally to go "live" 7 days later. Gives them some time to get the channels balanced properly.
> 
> Be very surprised if they rushed any channels tomorrow. No need to rush.
> 
> Getting those channels up before Dish's 8/1 new channels is probably a priority, and Wednesday 7/30 works out well.


Congrats Sixto on your 2,000th post. About 1999 of them were in this thread, I think.


----------



## Davenlr

Theratpatrol: If 103 is good, its probably aimed ok. Check your mount to make sure its still plumb, and verify the tilt is set correctly.


----------



## bobojay

Lowest 86 and highest 98 here in KC......


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> Yep, timing seems similar to D10 which showed signal on 9/12 and was originally to go "live" 7 days later. Gives them some time to get the channels balanced properly.
> 
> Be very surprised if they rushed any channels tomorrow. No need to rush.
> 
> Getting those channels up before Dish's 8/1 new channels is probably a priority, and Wednesday 7/30 works out well.


There are a couple of "opportune moments":
1) 7/30 before Dish brings up their new HD channels
2) 8/6 before the Olympics
3) 8/6 (again) before the Investor's webcast

Tomorrow--a great day as far as I'm concerned


----------



## carl6

I was away for over a week, and came back to find this thread well over one hundred pages longer than when I left. I have scanned it briefly but made no effort to read every post.

A fundamental question: If I recall correctly, with both the 103 satellites and the 99 satellites, 99c and 99s do not refer to a specific satellite, but rather to the conus beams from that orbital slot and the spot beams from that orbital slot (ditto 103s and c). In fact, either could come from either satellite. DirecTV can map any transponder on either satellite to any of the "s" or "c" transponder indicators.

If that is in fact true (and I think it is), how exactly does anyone know if the transponder readings that you are seeing are from a particular satellite (D11 in this case)?

Carl


----------



## Sixto

99(c) is D11

99(s) is D11 and/or Spaceway-2

103(c) is D10

103(s) is D10 and/or Spaceway-1

(c) is Conus, national HD

(s) is Spotbeam, Local-in-Local (LIL) HD


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Davenlr said:


> Theratpatrol: If 103 is good, its probably aimed ok. Check your mount to make sure its still plumb, and verify the tilt is set correctly.


Thanks


----------



## JLucPicard

katzeye said:


> I don't want to sound naive, but are you implying that our old friend Ea...umm Santa Claus, was D11?


Oh my heck! Are you telling me that EaglePC was D11???? :lol:


----------



## JayPSU

The only possibility I see for new channels this week is possibly lighting up the mpeg 4 versions of current channels like HBO, Showtime, ESPN, ESPN 2, etc. Channels they already have up in mpeg 2 in case there's a problem.


----------



## DodgerKing

JayPSU said:


> The only possibility I see for new channels this week is possibly lighting up the mpeg 4 versions of current channels like HBO, Showtime, ESPN, ESPN 2, etc. Channels they already have up in mpeg 2 in case there's a problem.


I was thinking the same. They can test without much of an issue. If ESPN mpeg 4 still has some bugs, then ESPN mpeg 2 will still be working.


----------



## purtman

bobojay said:


> Lowest 86 and highest 98 here in KC......


Sounds like you had a better installer than we did. It took us eight tries before they admitted that 60s and 70s on the other sats was not okay.
We're up near Liberty and not a hill or tree nearby.


----------



## Hoxxx

boggaf05 said:


> Looking at 99a on H20-100 I've got 0's all the way.


Just checked now 
1-8 70 80 64 75 69 78 66 75
9-16 71 80 69 75 74 81 n/a n/a 
17-24 all n/a
25-32 all n/a

looking good.


----------



## bjamin82

DodgerKing said:


> I was thinking the same. They can test without much of an issue. If ESPN mpeg 4 still has some bugs, then ESPN mpeg 2 will still be working.


Has anyone heard or have gotten any confirmation on what will be the first channels to light up? New channels... Not counting existing channels moving over from mpeg2 to mpeg4 and the premiums.


----------



## Jeremy W

bjamin82 said:


> Has anyone heard or have gotten any confirmation on what will be the first channels to light up?


Nobody's posted anything on here yet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bjamin82 said:


> Has anyone heard or have gotten any confirmation on what will be the first channels to light up? New channels... Not counting existing channels moving over from mpeg2 to mpeg4 and the premiums.


I've heard no word. And likely couldn't say anything anyway.


----------



## VeniceDre

Tom Robertson said:


> I've heard no word. And likely couldn't say anything anyway.


I'll give you my source if you give up your source(s) :lol:

Fun times... I put a call in, that has yet to be returned  , but I did get my haircut


----------



## bjamin82

DirecTV is currently "updating" their website.


----------



## purtman

What's interesting about this upgrade is that I don't recall everybody getting good signals on the new sat and then just staying there. There was a lot of tweaking going on, checking of the BBCs and other stuff. Just my own two cents. I'm sure D* would love to move a bunch of channels live before August 1, stealing Charlie Ergen's thunder. E* has already announced the August 1 date. D* hasn't, so any new channels could not be considered a change of tune to beat E*.


----------



## EaglePC

1080p bring it on...
don't make us suffer (Dish Network)


----------



## bjamin82

purtman said:


> What's interesting about this upgrade is that I don't recall everybody getting good signals on the new sat and then just staying there. There was a lot of tweaking going on, checking of the BBCs and other stuff. Just my own two cents. I'm sure D* would love to move a bunch of channels live before August 1, stealing Charlie Ergen's thunder. E* has already announced the August 1 date. D* hasn't, so any new channels could not be considered a change of tune to beat E*.


They have already taken it down from their website...

http://www.dishnetwork.com/turbo_is_coming/index.shtml

Click below link to see what was their.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1690375&postcount=20


----------



## SParker

What the heck is turbo? Is that 1080p? I didn't think any TV provider was going to do 1080p..


----------



## jacksonm30354

Shouldn't we see new transponders light up, even if just 0's, on 99(s) as well. D11 has spotbeams onboard too.


----------



## bjamin82

SParker said:


> What the heck is turbo? Is that 1080p? I didn't think any TV provider was going to do 1080p..


To my understanding..there is no programing in 1080p... so it doesn't matter if Dish says they are broadcasting it in 1080p or their set to box makes our tv info screens say 1080p... I doubt it will full 1080p.


----------



## bjamin82

jacksonm30354 said:


> Shouldn't we see new transponders light up, even if just 0's, on 99(s) as well. D11 has spotbeams onboard too.


Right, but the spots might not be pointed in your direction.


----------



## P Smith

carl6 said:


> I was away for over a week, and came back to find this thread well over one hundred pages longer than when I left. I have scanned it briefly but made no effort to read every post.
> 
> A fundamental question: If I recall correctly, with both the 103 satellites and the 99 satellites, 99c and 99s do not refer to a specific satellite, but rather to the conus beams from that orbital slot and the spot beams from that orbital slot (ditto 103s and c). In fact, either could come from either satellite. DirecTV can map any transponder on either satellite to any of the "s" or "c" transponder indicators.
> 
> If that is in fact true (and I think it is), how exactly does anyone know if the transponder readings that you are seeing are from a particular satellite (D11 in this case)?
> 
> Carl


DTV have complicated schema for mapping sat/tpns of SW-1 or SW-2, just brief look: 103a have 64 phy tpns [1..64], mapped to 6 logical [1...6] and use 3 freqs for tune to any channel there. 103b [D10] is pretty simple - used tpns 1...14,17,22.


----------



## P Smith

bjamin82 said:


> To my understanding..there is no programing in 1080p... so it doesn't matter if Dish says they are broadcasting it in 1080p or their set to box makes our tv info screens say 1080p... I doubt it will full 1080p.


After a few long threads full of debates and words "never 1080p will be on sats" it's COMING SOON from Dish !!!!!

[I understand frustration of DTV crowd, but that's how Dish will spur their business.]


----------



## bjamin82

P Smith said:


> After a few long threads full of debates and words "never 1080p will be on sats" it's COMING SOON from Dish !!!!!
> 
> [I understand frustration of DTV crowd, but that's how Dish will spur their business.]


:lol: Doesn't matter... The only thing Dish will have in 1080p is their guide. You have to have a network actually broadcasting in 1080p to have a channel in 1080p.

Quote from... http://www.hdtvsolutions.com/hdtv_reference_guide.htm

1080p Broadcasting Standard? Many HDTVs on the market feature a new 1080p resolution, which is 1920x1080 pixels rendered progressively, or all at once. This resolution standard is actually better than any current broadcasts offered, with 1080i being the closest. Will HDTV eventually be broadcast in 1080p? While some television network executives have expressed an interest in pursuing 1080p, there are many issues that have to be addressed before it becomes feasible. Some of the major issues include the increased bandwidth required to broadcast 1080p, the required upgrade of television cameras and other broadcast equipment, and the limited benefit to existing 720p/1080i HDTV owners who would not be able to see the increased resolution. Because of these and other reasons, it will be 5-10 years before 1080p can even be considered and there is a chance that 720p/1080i will be the major broadcast standard for decades.

You can also check http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=35735


----------



## purtman

bjamin82 said:


> DirecTV is currently "updating" their website.


It's back up. But no additional HD info.


----------



## P Smith

We are going off topic (Tom probably will spin off it into new thread) but we are only two midnight owls.

It will works - yes, new DVR will be there later this year and next, bandwidth is not an issue ( think of VOD kind ), we have the FullHD TV sets ready !


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith is correct that Dish has posted (and subsequently removed) a page talking about Turbo HD which is VOD, PPV, and IPTV (apparently) in 1080p. No other details other than it was to begin August 1.

Any other disucssion about Turbo HD should go to the Dish Forums.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## jacksonm30354

bjamin82 said:


> Right, but the spots might not be pointed in your direction.


New TP's should still show up as 0's and not NA's. I am saying we should see 99c and it should have high numbers but some of those NA's on 99s should now have numbers, even if it is just 0.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The spots haven't been enabled in the receiver tests yet. DIRECTV may or may not be testing spots behind the scenes.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## or270

Didn't the last couple of rounds of HD Channels added happen on Wednesday mornings.


----------



## bruinfever

or270 said:


> Didn't the last couple of rounds of HD Channels added happen on Wednesday mornings.


they almost always happen on Wednesday but if you're hoping for today you'll be disappointed.....


----------



## nd06irish

It appears everyone was right. No new channels this morning.


----------



## loudo

EaglePC said:


> 1080p bring it on...
> don't make us suffer (Dish Network)


I don't think either DirecTV or DISH has a receiver on the market, capable of receiving 1080p. 720p and 1080i, but not 1080p.


----------



## syphix

6 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes, 11 seconds until our next chance at new HD!!


----------



## wearsch

Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I have to ask) but with the HDMI connectivity, I believe enabling 1080p output would just require a software update. And if I read correctly, the "Turbo" page was touting Blu-ray quality movies on VOD. It sounds to me like 1)No broadcast tv in 1080p, and 2)1080p is possible but only for PPV movies via VOD. And sorry E* fans, but I highly doubt that's anything that D* couldn't easily replicate.

As for D11, I'm ready for 7/30 go live. On a side note, I'm very impressed by the dedication from those who get up early just to check for new channels. I have to get up anyway for work.


----------



## loudo

wearsch said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I have to ask) but with the HDMI connectivity, I believe enabling 1080p output would just require a software update.


Not sure, but thought I had read some time ago, in a different thread, that it would require a hardware upgrade to get 1080p. Software upgrade would be nice. But, another question is, how much more bandwidth will 1080p require, than 1080i does?


----------



## ShawnL25

Other than switching the MPEG2 channels over and ABCFamily HD does anyone know what Channels they will start with first? Encore HD and Fox News HD seem the most likley candidates. I would imagine that it will be close to what we experienced last year, a few every week for awhile. So my prediction is the above on 7/30 and the HBO's on 8/6. List of HD coming soon provided at the 8/6 investors meeting, HD Wednesdays spreadout from here to December!


----------



## rey_1178

wearsch said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (not that I have to ask) but with the HDMI connectivity, I believe enabling 1080p output would just require a software update. And if I read correctly, the "Turbo" page was touting Blu-ray quality movies on VOD. It sounds to me like 1)No broadcast tv in 1080p, and 2)1080p is possible but only for PPV movies via VOD. And sorry E* fans, but I highly doubt that's anything that D* couldn't easily rep


You're right. the xbox360 only needed a software update to display 1080p. i don't see why that wouldn't be the case for DTV. any ways back to the topic. i don't know about any one else here but my signals for 99c went up 5 points on each tp from yesterday. adjustments?


----------



## raoul5788

This is a post from the DPUC website in CT. There are some new, to me, hd channels that may be among the new lauches for Directv.

"Effective Tuesday, July 29, 2008, Cablevision will launch 15 High Definition (HD) services: AMC HD, Animal Planet HD, Discovery HD, Fox News HD, FX HD, Hallmark Movie Channel HD, IFC HD, Nickelodeon HD, Science Channel HD, Speed Channel HD, Spike HD, The Weather Channel HD, TLC HD, Travel Channel HD and We HD. All Commercial and Residential customers subscribing to Family Cable and above, or the iO Package and above for the Hallmark Movie Channel and Science Channel HD or iO Silver and above for IFC HD will be able to enjoy the new HD programming."


----------



## PaulieORF

raoul5788 said:


> This is a post from the DPUC website in CT. There are some new, to me, hd channels that may be among the new lauches for Directv.
> 
> "Effective Tuesday, July 29, 2008, Cablevision will launch 15 High Definition (HD) services: AMC HD, Animal Planet HD, Discovery HD, Fox News HD, FX HD, Hallmark Movie Channel HD, IFC HD, Nickelodeon HD, Science Channel HD, Speed Channel HD, Spike HD, The Weather Channel HD, TLC HD, Travel Channel HD and We HD. All Commercial and Residential customers subscribing to Family Cable and above, or the iO Package and above for the Hallmark Movie Channel and Science Channel HD or iO Silver and above for IFC HD will be able to enjoy the new HD programming."


Cablevision seems to see a need to add 15 more channels the day before D11 channels are predicted to go up. Coincidence?


----------



## dhhaines

Wow... this thread grew 6 pages since yesterday! 

As of this morning the sat at 99c had all TP on with a signal strength of between 88 and 96 on my HR20-700.

Any news at all on when and what channels are coming?


----------



## or270

syphix said:


> 6 days, 22 hours, 57 minutes, 11 seconds until our next chance at new HD!!


Didn't they turn them on last couple of times at 6:00am pacific time or was 3:00am I cannot remember.


----------



## syphix

or270 said:


> Didn't they turn them on last couple of times at 6:00am pacific time or was 3:00am I cannot remember.


6:00am Eastern, so 3:00am Pacific.


----------



## Hdhead

No new HD today. Have to suffer through another week of CNN. You do the math!


----------



## Steve Robertson

dhhaines said:


> Wow... this thread grew 6 pages since yesterday!
> 
> As of this morning the sat at 99c had all TP on with a signal strength of between 88 and 96 on my HR20-700.
> 
> Any news at all on when and what channels are coming?


SOON


----------



## VARTV

ShawnL25 said:


> Other than switching the MPEG2 channels over and ABCFamily HD does anyone know what Channels they will start with first? Encore HD and Fox News HD seem the most likley candidates.


If you go to DirecTV's HD page, there are logos for BET-HD and MTV2-HD... http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3420007


----------



## dhhaines

Steve Robertson said:


> SOON


Soon with news or soon with new HD??? 

And what is your definition of soon


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dhhaines said:


> Soon with news or soon with new HD???


Yes.

*(My definition of SOON is too far away minus 1 day)*


----------



## FHSPSU67

Tom Robertson said:


> Perhaps I can put it this way--I'm not planning on getting up at 3:50am MT tomorrow morning...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


No, you just stayed up until 3:50 AM!

[edit] 3:50 AM EDT, 1:50 AM MDT.


----------



## jefbal99

need to peak my dish, 70s and 80s on 103c 60s-70s on 99c...

Still have 90s on the KU birds


----------



## syphix

VARTV said:


> If you go to DirecTV's HD page, there are logos for BET-HD and MTV2-HD... http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3420007


GREAAAT....another couple of music channels that never actually broadcast any HD programming...

Channels I can't wait for:

1. Travel Channel HD
2. More premium movies in HD
3. The legacy HD's (HDNet, HDNet Movies, etc.) in MPEG4


----------



## Jon J

What could cause the signal strengths on 99(c) on my HR20 to be consistently about 10 points higher than my HR21?


----------



## NorfolkBruh

!pride Well gents, geeks, nerds, ladies, rocket scientists... all! Plenty of NEW HD is a good thing... getting LOCAL HD is betta! 
*
Right cheah in No-foke Virginny my local stations is now in HD!! 50 glorious inches of HD in the TV room! *
:group: reach:​
OH... translation... Seems to me that here in Norfolk, VA we now have locals in HD!!

Also got some new download at 2:31am... download 0x254... no idea what it means except some of these morning news folks wear LOTS of make up!! lololol

NorfolkBruh!


----------



## Steve Robertson

dhhaines said:


> Soon with news or soon with new HD???
> 
> And what is your definition of soon


I am just going by what I am always told SOON is a word used a lot around here. I guess it could mean 1 hour or 1 month and everything in between.

I really hate the word soon as to me it says nothing. Soon to you may mean someting different then it does to me.

I think soon should be banned:lol:


----------



## DarinC

NorfolkBruh said:


> !OH... translation... Seems to me that here in Norfolk, VA we now have locals in HD!!


Just to make sure I understand your translation... you're getting new HD channels via satellite that you didn't get yesterday?


----------



## dhhaines

Steve Robertson said:


> I am just going by what I am always told SOON is a word used a lot around here. I guess it could mean 1 hour or 1 month and everything in between.
> 
> I really hate the word soon as to me it says nothing. Soon to you may mean someting different then it does to me.
> 
> I think soon should be banned:lol:


 I agree!

Coming SOON to an HDTV near you...... fill in your favorite channel here .....


----------



## VARTV

DarinC said:


> Just to make sure I understand your translation... you're getting new HD channels via satellite that you didn't get yesterday?


I'm in the same market... no HD LILs for me... yet...


----------



## Bofurley

Actually here is what Swanni said:

Will DIRECTV Add HD Channels Early?
The company's new satellite is expected to become operational in September.
By Swanni

Washington, D.C. (July 23, 2008) -- DIRECTV has hinted strongly that its new HD satellite won't be operational until September, meaning it would be unlikely that the satcaster would add more high-def channels before then.

However, there are some indications that the satellite, which was launched in March, could be ready earlier than expected, perhaps as early as mid-August.

If so, it could mean that DIRECTV, which now has 95 national HD channels, could expand its high-def lineup to well over 100 channels next month. The company says the new satellite will give it the capacity to offer up to 150 national HD channels.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Clearly they have been tweaking things overnight...as I now have 7 of my transponders in the 90+ range and all the rest in the 80 - 90 range...a very noticable increase over yesterday.


----------



## NorfolkBruh

DarinC said:


> Just to make sure I understand your translation... you're getting new HD channels via satellite that you didn't get yesterday?


*Yes... that is what I mean. My channel 3 (WTKR) CBS station is IDENTICAL to channel 3-1 (WTKR HD)!*

Maybe it's hopeful wishing but danged ifn it don't both look the same! BUT VARTV is FAR smarter then I in this arena so I'm willing to admit it's my hopeful wishing... danged if it don't look sat chan 3 don't look clearer today then y'day!


----------



## DarinC

Poor Swanni... YA THINK?!?! You think they're going to have active transponders in July, then wait until September to start using them? It may take a bit to tweak them, but not 5+ weeks!


----------



## DarinC

NorfolkBruh said:


> *Yes... that is what I mean. My channel 3 (WTKR) CBS station is IDENTICAL to channel 3-1 (WTKR HD)!*
> 
> Maybe it's hopeful wishing but danged ifn it don't both look the same!


You seem to be getting something different than VARTV. If you turn off the option to hide SD duplicates, do you see two satellite versions of channel 3? If you scroll foward to prime time in the guide, do you see HD shows on channel 3?


----------



## VARTV

NorfolkBruh said:


> *Yes... that is what I mean. My channel 3 (WTKR) CBS station is IDENTICAL to channel 3-1 (WTKR HD)!*
> 
> Maybe it's hopeful wishing but danged ifn it don't both look the same! BUT VARTV is FAR smarter then I in this arena so I'm willing to admit it's my hopeful wishing... danged if it don't look sat chan 3 don't look clearer today then y'day!


I'm still not seeing this... All three of my HD receivers are still getting SD only for locals...


----------



## VARTV

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Clearly they have been tweaking things overnight...as I now have 7 of my transponders in the 90+ range and all the rest in the 80 - 90 range...a very noticable increase over yesterday.


I also noticed higher numbers this morning...


----------



## NorfolkBruh

DarinC.... I do truly hate you! lolololol You are right... when I scroll to 9pm Criminal Minds on 3-1 is HD but on channel 3 it is not... 

HOPE DASHED! My eyes are making the glorious digital look clearer! >sigh<

NorfolkBruh


----------



## dbmaven

PaulieORF said:


> Cablevision seems to see a need to add 15 more channels the day before D11 channels are predicted to go up. Coincidence?


Cablevision announced those several weeks ago - no coincidence and no cause/effect relationship with D11...or DISH.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DarinC said:


> Poor Swanni... YA THINK?!?! You think they're going to have active transponders in July, then wait until September to start using them? It may take a bit to tweak them, but not 5+ weeks!


He might, but the rest of the world knows better.


----------



## LameLefty

My signals are up only a point or two across the board under partly-cloudy skies - all ranging from 90 - 93. It'll do.


----------



## bobnielsen

NorfolkBruh said:


> DarinC.... I do truly hate you! lolololol You are right... when I scroll to 9pm Criminal Minds on 3-1 is HD but on channel 3 it is not...
> 
> HOPE DASHED! My eyes are making the glorious digital look clearer! >sigh<
> 
> NorfolkBruh


When they do become HD, the guide will show the channel by its call letters instead of something like NO3.


----------



## DodgerKing

Bofurley said:


> Actually here is what Swanni said:
> 
> Will DIRECTV Add HD Channels Early?
> The company's new satellite is expected to become operational in September.
> By Swanni
> 
> Washington, D.C. (July 23, 2008) -- DIRECTV has hinted strongly that its new HD satellite won't be operational until September, meaning it would be unlikely that the satcaster would add more high-def channels before then.
> 
> However, there are some indications that the satellite, which was launched in March, could be ready earlier than expected, perhaps as early as mid-August.
> 
> If so, it could mean that DIRECTV, which now has 95 national HD channels, could expand its high-def lineup to well over 100 channels next month. The company says the new satellite will give it the capacity to offer up to 150 national HD channels.


Where do you think Swanni gets these rumors from?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> My signals are up only a point or two across the board under partly-cloudy skies - all ranging from 90 - 93. It'll do.


I saw a much higher jump here...up to 6 points on some transponders, but in general:

*NOW:*

In checking my 3 HD DVRs and 2 HD receivers...

The 3 HD DVRs and 1 receiver all have:

7 transponders in the 92+ range
7 transponders in the 82-89 range

My other receiver has:

8 transponders in the 92+ range
6 transponders in the 84-89 range

*BEFORE:*

In checking my 3 HD DVRs and 2 HD receivers...

The 3 HD DVRs and 1 receiver all had:

2 transponders with a 78 (the low readings)
5 transponders in the 92+ range
7 transponders in the 82-89 range

My other receiver had:

1 transponders with a 79 (the low reading)
6 transponders in the 92+ range
7 transponders in the 84-89 range


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bobnielsen said:


> When they do become HD, the guide will show the channel by its call letters instead of something like NO3.


Yes, because despite being the new HD LIL channels (with the call letters), not all programming will be in HD, it will be based on the network or local programming mix.


----------



## DarinC

NorfolkBruh said:


> DarinC.... I do truly hate you!


Story of my life. But another thing to try if you get confused again  is to put the receiver in native mode, and see what resolution it's outputing on that channel. I'm not sure if ANY channel ever changes their resolution... if they're 1080i, they are always 1080i, even if they are broadcasting an SD show.


----------



## DodgerKing

DarinC said:


> Story of my life. But another thing to try if you get confused again  is to put the receiver in native mode, and see what resolution it's outputing on that channel. I'm not sure if ANY channel ever changes their resolution... if they're 1080i, they are always 1080i, even if they are broadcasting an SD show.


OT: You are very knowledgeable, but when I look at that Avatar picture it become difficult to take you seriously. All I can think of is, "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha", in a whining voice. :lol:


----------



## DarinC

It's tough being the middle child.


----------



## doctor j

Spent more time with several models looking at 99 (c)/(b).

Good signals on HR-20 700, HR-21-100.

Good signal on H-23 600 but some transponders flash 90's then go to 0 , as next scan goes by that transponder fixes a 90's and the next transponder flashes then goes to zero etc. Curious?!

H20-100 not certain if this is a CE issue. It is on latest 4090 software.
However all Ka transponders read 0.
99 (b) and 103(a). all 0's. All MPEG 4 HD channels received ok
99 (a) and 103(b). all 0's. All local LIL's ok.
So signal strength scan is faulty. Haven't tried individual channels yet.
Reset. No changes. Haven't checked 103 (a) too recently but scan did work in past.

No #'s on D-10 or D-11 but getting all channels?

Doctor j


----------



## bwaldron

doctor j said:


> Good signal on H-23 600 but some transponders flash 90's then go to 0 , as next scan goes by that transponder fixes a 90's and the next transponder flashes then goes to zero etc. Curious?!


That's just an artifact due to software -- I used to see it often with early versions of software on my HR21-100 (and still do every once in awhile). Sometimes the software just "times out" too early when getting a reading. If you look at the individual transponder test screen, you won't see the transient zeros.


----------



## cforrest

PaulieORF said:


> Cablevision seems to see a need to add 15 more channels the day before D11 channels are predicted to go up. Coincidence?


More like Cablevision put a PR out a day after Verizon's FIOS TV put out a PR adding around 23 channels, 15 in HD. Coincidence? LOL Cablevision doesn't try to compete with D* in HD, they are focused on FIOS TV.


----------



## man_rob

DodgerKing said:


> Where do you think Swanni gets these rumors from?


Look at this page:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4580004


----------



## merchione

DodgerKing said:


> Where do you think Swanni gets these rumors from?


Not from this board thats for sure!


----------



## Malibu13

VARTV said:


> I'm still not seeing this... All three of my HD receivers are still getting SD only for locals...


No HD Locals here south of the border either.


----------



## dhhaines

merchione said:


> Not from this board thats for sure!


 :scratchin


----------



## seminoles2425

DarinC said:


> Just to make sure I understand your translation... you're getting new HD channels via satellite that you didn't get yesterday?


I live in Portsmouth, VA(same tv market as Norfolk, VA) and none of the locals I receive from Directv are in HD but the locals from DishNetwork and Cox Cable are in HD.


----------



## merchione

seminoles2425 said:


> I live in Portsmouth, VA(same tv market as Norfolk, VA) and none of the locals I receive from Directv are in HD but the locals from DishNetwork and Cox Cable are in HD.


Here's a list of some that will get their locals in HD once D11 is running...
Baton Rouge
Boise
Burlington, VT
Charleston, SC
Colorado Springs
Dayton, OH
Des Moines
El Paso
Fort Smith, AR
Harlingen-Weslaco-Brownsville-McAllen, TX
Lincoln, NE
Norfolk
Richmond
Rochester, NY
Savannah
South Bend-Elkhardt, IN
Springfield, MA
Syracuse, NY
Tallahassee
Toledo
Yakima
Youngstown, OH

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=131690


----------



## Ed Campbell

Bofurley said:


> Actually here is what Swanni said:
> 
> Will DIRECTV Add HD Channels Early?
> The company's new satellite is expected to become operational in September.
> By Swanni...blah, blah.


He could've said that much in April or May.


----------



## dgordo

merchione said:


> Here's a list of some that will get their locals in HD once D11 is running...
> Baton Rouge
> Boise
> Burlington, VT
> Charleston, SC
> Colorado Springs
> Dayton, OH
> Des Moines
> El Paso
> Fort Smith, AR
> Harlingen-Weslaco-Brownsville-McAllen, TX
> Lincoln, NE
> Norfolk
> Richmond
> Rochester, NY
> Savannah
> South Bend-Elkhardt, IN
> Springfield, MA
> Syracuse, NY
> Tallahassee
> Toledo
> Yakima
> Youngstown, OH
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=131690


That list can't be correct. Des Moines doesn't even have a HD LRF yet.


----------



## doctor j

doctor j said:


> H20-100 not certain if this is a CE issue. It is on latest 4090 software.
> However all Ka transponders read 0.
> 99 (b) and 103(a). all 0's. All MPEG 4 HD channels received ok
> 99 (a) and 103(b). all 0's. All local LIL's ok.
> So signal strength scan is faulty. Haven't tried individual channels yet.
> Reset. No changes. Haven't checked 103 (a) too recently but scan did work in past.
> 
> No #'s on D-10 or D-11 but getting all channels?
> 
> Doctor j


Not many people on CE H-20's or any non DVR for that matter.

Should I post the anomaly (NOT nominal) on the H-20 100 Ka signal strength as an issue in the CE thread or wait till channels actually broadcasting on D-11. It is the same anomaly for D-10 now and 103 conus. As noted no signal on any spotbeam Ka's either.

Doctor j


----------



## merchione

dgordo said:


> That list can't be correct. Des Moines doesn't even have a HD LRF yet.


I sure hope it is


----------



## mgtr

doctor j said:


> Spent more time with several models looking at 99 (c)/(b).
> 
> Doctor j


Any chance that you will be posting pictiures of the models?


----------



## GregLee

I'm losing signal on 13+ channels. Is it connected with D11 somehow do you think? The only problem channel that I'm sure about the timing on is 309, and that was okay up through yesterday, but now it has bad breakup of the picture and intermittent 771 messages. When I noticed the problem, I checked all the channels in my favorites list. All the HD channels are fine[*], but other channels with loss of signal are: 246, 256, 261, 272, 302, 303, 326, 328, 329, and some in the 600s. [*] Except for HD 292 and 621, which I never have gotten any signal for -- old problem.

My signal levels for 99(c) range from 77-85, for 99(s) are 0,100,0,100,0,100. For 101 I get several levels in the 40s. I haven't looked at the levels in months, so I don't know when the 101 levels got so low.

I'm in Hawaii with 2 1.2 meter dishes.


----------



## Doug Brott

DarinC said:


> Poor Swanni... YA THINK?!?! You think they're going to have active transponders in July, then wait until September to start using them? It may take a bit to tweak them, but not 5+ weeks!


I haven't heard. My contacts have been quiet .. said something about watching TV


----------



## Tom Robertson

GregLee said:


> I'm losing signal on 13+ channels. Is it connected with D11 somehow do you think? The only problem channel that I'm sure about the timing on is 309, and that was okay up through yesterday, but now it has bad breakup of the picture and intermittent 771 messages. When I noticed the problem, I checked all the channels in my favorites list. All the HD channels are fine[*], but other channels with loss of signal are: 246, 256, 261, 272, 302, 303, 326, 328, 329, and some in the 600s. [*] Except for HD 292 and 621, which I never have gotten any signal for -- old problem.
> 
> My signal levels for 99(c) range from 77-85, for 99(s) are 0,100,0,100,0,100. For 101 I get several levels in the 40s. I haven't looked at the levels in months, so I don't know when the 101 levels got so low.
> 
> I'm in Hawaii with 2 1.2 meter dishes.


The channels you list are all from 101° (unless they are the HD versions.) Have your 101° dish realigned; 40s won't do. 

Good luck,
Tom


----------



## JayPSU

Still must be some bugs to work out with D11 as my signal strengths from it are still currently ranging from 28-42 here in central Ohio. My signal from 103c is in the 90's, so I don't think it's a peaking issue.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I haven't heard. My contacts have been quiet .. said something about watching TV


Good one! :lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Good one! :lol:


Hey, I'm looking forward to what the new sat might bring .. It's hard to tell if anyone else is


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Hey, I'm looking forward to what the new sat might bring .. It's hard to tell if anyone else is


Oh yeah....bring on the new HD.....the LILs for those folks waiting all this time to be added, as well as the new National HD.....

I figure that my postings and Smiddy's alone should drop maybe 10% because of less time from watching all the new HD content.


----------



## speedy4022

merchione said:


> Here's a list of some that will get their locals in HD once D11 is running...
> Baton Rouge
> Boise
> Burlington, VT
> Charleston, SC
> Colorado Springs
> Dayton, OH
> Des Moines
> El Paso
> Fort Smith, AR
> Harlingen-Weslaco-Brownsville-McAllen, TX
> Lincoln, NE
> Norfolk
> Richmond
> Rochester, NY
> Savannah
> South Bend-Elkhardt, IN
> Springfield, MA
> Syracuse, NY
> Tallahassee
> Toledo
> Yakima
> Youngstown, OH
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=131690


I hope this list is correct as well.


----------



## MIAMI1683

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Oh yeah....bring on the new HD.....the LILs for those folks waiting all this time to be added, as well as the new National HD.....
> 
> I figure that my postings and Smiddy's alone should drop maybe 10% because of less time from watching all the new HD content.


 Nah that won't happen. Now you'll need a bigger drive for you DVR's. That way you can post here, and watch later :lol: :lol: .


----------



## Drew2k

PaulieORF said:


> Cablevision seems to see a need to add 15 more channels the day before D11 channels are predicted to go up. Coincidence?


Cablevision's had a notice on their web site about these new channels for almost 2 months ...

http://optimum.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/optimum.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=359


----------



## ycebar

Does anyone know how many hd lils will be added to d11


----------



## GregLee

Tom Robertson said:


> The channels you list are all from 101° (unless they are the HD versions.) Have your 101° dish realigned; 40s won't do.


Now that it's light out, I see heavy clouds in the direction of the satellites, so I'm thinking it was a storm at sea. Several of my channels are back now. Sorry I posted here.


----------



## psweig

GregLee said:


> I'm losing signal on 13+ channels. Is it connected with D11 somehow do you think? The only problem channel that I'm sure about the timing on is 309, and that was okay up through yesterday, but now it has bad breakup of the picture and intermittent 771 messages. When I noticed the problem, I checked all the channels in my favorites list. All the HD channels are fine[*], but other channels with loss of signal are: 246, 256, 261, 272, 302, 303, 326, 328, 329, and some in the 600s. [*] Except for HD 292 and 621, which I never have gotten any signal for -- old problem.
> 
> My signal levels for 99(c) range from 77-85, for 99(s) are 0,100,0,100,0,100. For 101 I get several levels in the 40s. I haven't looked at the levels in months, so I don't know when the 101 levels got so low.
> 
> I'm in Hawaii with 2 1.2 meter dishes.


Hey, you took my even transponder signals


----------



## henryld

ycebar said:


> Does anyone know how many hd lils will be added to d11


Don't know how many but see post #5378 for a list of citys to be added.


----------



## raoul5788

Drew2k said:


> Cablevision's had a notice on their web site about these new channels for almost 2 months ...
> 
> http://optimum.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/optimum.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=359


That may be, but it was just posted to the CT DPUC website yesterday.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MIAMI1683 said:


> Nah that won't happen. Now you'll need a bigger drive for you DVR's. That way you can post here, and watch later :lol: :lol: .


Already upped the drives in anticipation...


----------



## Doug Brott

I can't wait for ESPN in MPEG4 ..


----------



## mcbeevee

ycebar said:


> Does anyone know how many hd lils will be added to d11


_With the additional capacity, DIRECTV will also expand its delivery of local HD channels to more than 100 markets, representing 84 percent of U.S. TV households. _

DIRECTV 11 Satellite Launch Press Release


----------



## kramerboy

JayPSU said:


> Still must be some bugs to work out with D11 as my signal strengths from it are still currently ranging from 28-42 here in central Ohio. My signal from 103c is in the 90's, so I don't think it's a peaking issue.


Hmmm... I'm only about 85 miles NE of you and my signals are ranging from 89 - 97 on all transponders.


----------



## man_rob

So is anyone looking for test channels, like those that appeared during the D10 testing phase?


----------



## Doug Brott

man_rob said:


> So is anyone looking for test channels, like those that appeared during the D10 testing phase?


I know that I cannot see any test channels at the moment


----------



## tcusta00

Doug Brott said:


> I know that I cannot see any test channels at the moment


Anyone know where to look or where they were with D10?


----------



## Tom Robertson

I've been having fun with HDNet movies lately. Would be nicer in MPEG4 crispness; can't wait!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jrodfoo

didn't we have like 6000 posts right around the time D10 went live? I can't remember, but if so, we're right on schedule


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> I know that I cannot see any test channels at the moment


Forgot to fire up the slinbox today, eh? 

Maybe you'll see them when you hop home for lunch...


----------



## bhelton71

tcusta00 said:


> Anyone know where to look or where they were with D10?


I remember 498 (and maybe 499 ) was the first 'slide' - but then there were real broadcast channels later ( remember watching Nat Geo - something about snow - might have been a Survivorman episode - they were flipping channels roughly hourly if I remember) on 9300

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=100301


----------



## Steve615

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=100599

That was from the launch of D10.I imagine if any "Test" channels show up,they should be in or near the same channel number range.




tcusta00 said:


> Anyone know where to look or where they were with D10?


----------



## LarryFlowers

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Oh yeah....bring on the new HD.....the LILs for those folks waiting all this time to be added, as well as the new National HD.....
> 
> I figure that my postings and Smiddy's alone should drop maybe 10% because of less time from watching all the new HD content.


Just 10%????? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## tcusta00

Doug Brott said:


> I know that I cannot see any test channels at the moment





Tom Robertson said:


> I've been having fun with HDNet movies lately. Would be nicer in MPEG4 crispness; can't wait!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


:scratchin :scratchin :scratchin :scratchin

Got some info for us there, big fella?


----------



## QuickDrop

man_rob said:


> So is anyone looking for test channels, like those that appeared during the D10 testing phase?


Does DirecTV need to do test channels this time around? (I've only had them for the past year so I honestly don't know.) As I remember it, there were only test channels from D10 after it seemed like there were problems with the scheduled premiere of new channels. I assumed this was due, in essence, to the use of new technology, ie the the use of Ka band, etc., to ensure everyone received the channels. There is nothing new about D11, so I would assume there won't be the same kind of problems aside from people whose dishes are slightly misaligned, and test channels would be unnecessary. If there are test channels, I do agree with those who think it will happen to those transiting from MPEG2. HDnets and UniversalHD seem suited for this since they don't have an assigned channel numbers outside the 70s in most peoples' minds.


----------



## bwaldron

QuickDrop said:


> Does DirecTV need to do test channels this time around?


No, I don't expect to see any. With D10 there were issues with bad/marginal dish installs, BBC's not installed and not working, etc. Those are pretty much resolved at this point.


----------



## bjamin82

Tom Robertson said:


> Forgot to fire up the slinbox today, eh?
> 
> Maybe you'll see them when you hop home for lunch...


Are you insinuating that there are test channels?


----------



## VeniceDre

Doug Brott said:


> I can't wait for ESPN in MPEG4 ..


I can't wait for SHO East and HBO East in MPEG4 so I can stop recording the later, and better PQ, West Coast MPEG4 feeds.


----------



## VeniceDre

bjamin82 said:


> Are you insinuating that there are test channels?


The real question is what are they testing? Are they existing channels mirrored on the new bird or new content?


----------



## bwaldron

VeniceDre said:


> The real question is what are they testing? Are they existing channels mirrored on the new bird or new content?


I'm sure the engineers are testing new channel uplinks, as well as new MPEG4 versions of existing channels (if such versions are to go live "soon").


----------



## Doug Brott

VeniceDre said:


> I can't wait for SHO East and HBO East in MPEG4 so I can stop recording the later, and better PQ, West Coast MPEG4 feeds.


You have a very good point there .. not to mention that it also takes up less space on the disk.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> I've been having fun with HDNet movies lately. Would be nicer in MPEG4 crispness; can't wait!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Nice PQ, smaller file sizes (big for those of us who don't - yet! - have eSATA setups going) . . . what's not to love?


----------



## bwaldron

Doug Brott said:


> You have a very good point there .. not to mention that it also takes up less space on the disk.


Indeed. Though for most things on those channels I will probably keep recording the west feeds, as they are less likely to conflict with other primetime recordings here on the east coast.

But it will be good to have the option at equivalent quality/space.


----------



## Curtis0620

So, this could push our HD-DVR capacity to > than 50 hours?


----------



## Ernie

loudo said:


> Not sure, but thought I had read some time ago, in a different thread, that it would require a hardware upgrade to get 1080p. Software upgrade would be nice. But, another question is, how much more bandwidth will 1080p require, than 1080i does?


If the material is 24fps, probably the same (or maybe even less depending on the resolution of source). As far as hardware goes, does anybody know for sure that the H(R)21 doesn't have a 1080p capable HDMI output chip.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

Curtis0620 said:


> So, this could push our HD-DVR capacity to > than 50 hours?


Nope. About 50 hours of MPEG4, 30 of MPEG2, and well, LOTS of MPEG2 SD. 

I'm gonna definitely be getting an eSATA disk setup soon. Anyone want to PM me with their working drives/enclosures, that would be great!


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> If the material is 24fps, probably the same (or maybe even less depending on the resolution of source). As far as hardware goes, does anybody know for sure that the H(R)21 doesn't have a 1080p capable HDMI output chip.
> 
> Ernie


Check the First Look document for the chip numbers and then the Broadcom website for tech details, but I don't recall that being part of the spec.


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> Nice PQ, smaller file sizes (big for those of us who don't - yet! - have eSATA setups going) . . . what's not to love?


Even if you have an eSATA drive, it still fills up fast. My 750Gb drive typically has less than 10% available. So smaller file sizes are always welcome.

Ernie


----------



## JayPSU

LameLefty said:


> Nope. About 50 hours of MPEG4, 30 of MPEG2, and well, LOTS of MPEG2 SD.
> 
> I'm gonna definitely be getting an eSATA disk setup soon. Anyone want to PM me with their working drives/enclosures, that would be great!


Can anyone point me to a link on here that explains how to add an additional hard drive to the HR21, can it be an external drive, and what drives would be compatible? Thanks!


----------



## Doug Brott

LameLefty said:


> Nope. About 50 hours of MPEG4, 30 of MPEG2, and well, LOTS of MPEG2 SD.


I think 200 hours is the number bandied about for the MPEG2 SD .. however, there ain't much of that on my DVR


----------



## LameLefty

JayPSU said:


> Can anyone point me to a link on here that explains how to add an additional hard drive to the HR21, can it be an external drive, and what drives would be compatible? Thanks!


Check out this forum . . . lots of eSATA info here.

http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=115


----------



## n3ntj

I know this is off topic, but can internal and ext. drives operate concurrently yet on HR20 units?


----------



## dhhaines

Ernie said:


> Even if you have an eSATA drive, it still fills up fast. My 750Gb drive typically has less than 10% available. So smaller file sizes are always welcome.
> 
> Ernie


 You either record alot of shows or every movie.:eek2: (and don't watch and delete them)

My 750g has never been lower then 35% available and we have 50 season passes plus a few movies every week.


----------



## LameLefty

Doug Brott said:


> I think 200 hours is the number bandied about for the MPEG2 SD .. however, there ain't much of that on my DVR


There's too much of it on my drive for my taste. And with AMC still not in HD, the new season of _Mad Men_ is gonna start taking up some space.


----------



## LameLefty

n3ntj said:


> I know this is off topic, but can internal and ext. drives operate concurrently yet on HR20 units?


No, one or the other.


----------



## dbmaven

n3ntj said:


> I know this is off topic, but can internal and ext. drives operate concurrently yet on HR20 units?


Nope. Plugging in the external disables the internal...more details in the thread linked above


----------



## dhhaines

Doug Brott said:


> I think 200 hours is the number bandied about for the MPEG2 SD .. however, there ain't much of that on my DVR


 The SD on a DVR in our household is on my daughters R15. I can't remember the last time I've watched, let alone recorded off an SD channel!


----------



## dcowboy7

I WANT MORE said:


> We are in for a nice surprise @ 6:00 AM EST tomorrow.


so what was the surprise ?


----------



## Ernie

LameLefty said:


> Check the First Look document for the chip numbers and then the Broadcom website for tech details, but I don't recall that being part of the spec.


That was easy. The H21, HR21 and H23 all use a Broadcom BCM7402 which supports 1080p 24/30 output.

Ernie


----------



## bhelton71

Ernie said:


> If the material is 24fps, probably the same (or maybe even less depending on the resolution of source). As far as hardware goes, does anybody know for sure that the H(R)21 doesn't have a 1080p capable HDMI output chip.
> 
> Ernie


Technically I believe the HR21 can output 1080p by way of its BCM7401. However it would also appear an HR20 cannot. So just a guess - if you are trying to keep identical feature sets across the models, I am pretty sure you would go to lengths to not enable it on the HR21.


----------



## Ernie

dhhaines said:


> You either record alot of shows or every movie.:eek2: (and don't watch and delete them)
> 
> My 750g has never been lower then 35% available and we have 50 season passes plus a few movies every week.


Too much good stuff and not enough time to watch it is my problem.

Ernie


----------



## bwaldron

bhelton71 said:


> if you are trying to keep identical feature sets across the models


They haven't completely done that (cf. the network switching on HR21 models); I don't think, however, that they will activate 1080p.


----------



## bhelton71

bwaldron said:


> They haven't completely done that (cf. the network switching on HR21 models); I don't think, however, that they will activate 1080p.


Thats true and I should have said 'comparable'.

Also I don't know how the population of HR20 vs HR21 looks either. I would imagine there are more 20's (completely biased as I have 2) but they have been out of production for a while so maybe the 21's are the majority.


----------



## dhhaines

Ernie said:


> Too much good stuff and not enough time to watch it is my problem.
> 
> Ernie


 I know what you mean, but I always thought that a 750g with ONLY 35% left was alot to watch.


----------



## dshu82

Anyone still seeing signals on 99c? My fiance told me (few hours ago, actually busy today :lol: ) that we had mid 90's.


----------



## syphix

dshu82 said:


> Anyone still seeing signals on 99c? My fiance told me (few hours ago, actually busy today :lol: ) that we had mid 90's.


More signal than ever:

91 93 87 89 90 92 88 88
91 92 88 89 94 95


----------



## bobnielsen

dshu82 said:


> Anyone still seeing signals on 99c? My fiance told me (few hours ago, actually busy today :lol: ) that we had mid 90's.


They are running between 78 and 88 on my HR20 right now. The levels bounce around a bit, so they may be making adjustments.


----------



## cartrivision

Ernie said:


> That was easy. The H21, HR21 and H23 all use a Broadcom BCM7402 which supports 1080p 24/30 output.
> 
> Ernie


As has been pointed out over and over again every time this 1080p subject comes up, 24fps source that is broadcast in 1080i, contains every bit of information that would be in a 1080p/24 encoding of the same source. 1080i/60 can deliver 1080p video at 30fps.... obviously a fast enough frame rate to deliver 1080p at 24 fps.

Is short, broadcasting 24fps film source in 1080p24 adds NOTHING in terms of additional picture information compared to 1080i.


----------



## dhhaines

bobnielsen said:


> They are running between 78 and 88 on my HR20 right now. The levels bounce around a bit, so they may be making adjustments.


 So I'm guessing that the signals are on all the time now? Hopefully that's a sign that new HD will be up on their usual Wednesday morning next week!


----------



## Jon J

Still wondering why there should be a difference in signal strengths between an HR20 and HR21 on 99(c).

Anyone?


----------



## say-what

Jon J said:


> Still wondering why there should be a difference in signal strengths between an HR20 and HR21 on 99(c).
> 
> Anyone?


Different tuners, quality and length of cable runs....

If you're talking about 2 units in your home, as long as they're close, it doesn't matter.

If you're talking about signals posted by others, well add, time of day, location in country, allignment of dish.....


----------



## dhhaines

Jon J said:


> Still wondering why there should be a difference in signal strengths between an HR20 and HR21 on 99(c).
> 
> Anyone?


 Through the years I've always had differing signal levels between different receivers.

Don't know if thats normal for all, but it's normal for me.


----------



## bruinfever

Tom Robertson said:


> Forgot to fire up the slinbox today, eh?
> 
> Maybe you'll see them when you hop home for lunch...





tcusta00 said:


> :scratchin :scratchin :scratchin :scratchin
> 
> Got some info for us there, big fella?


Someone knows something and that someone is not saying....Spit it out!!!


----------



## Doug Brott

bruinfever said:


> Someone knows something and that someone is not saying....Spit it out!!!


well, I'm heading out for lunch now .. hopefully I won't be spitting that out ..


----------



## levibluewa

304...TV LAND. Just spotted this change.


----------



## I WANT MORE

dcowboy7 said:


> so what was the surprise ?


Can't believe it took this long to get called on this.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> well, I'm heading out for lunch now .. hopefully I won't be spitting that out ..


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## bruinfever

Doug Brott said:


> well, I'm heading out for lunch now .. hopefully I won't be spitting that out ..


:hurah:


----------



## Fatboy72

levibluewa said:


> 304...TV LAND. Just spotted this change.


Noticed this earlier today myself


----------



## Radio Enginerd

You just know the mods know something right now.

Very tricksy I say.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

I just noticed all the test channels in the 480-490's... I don't venture down that far very often... How long have those been there??


----------



## LameLefty

AirRocker said:


> I just noticed all the test channels in the 480-490's... I don't venture down that far very often... How long have those been there??


They were initially setup after D10 was parked. I haven't looked up there in months.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

LameLefty said:


> They were initially setup after D10 was parked. I haven't looked up there in months.


Me neither... Have they been there that long?? Looks like 2 for 103, 101, 119, and 110 (an even and an odd for each)....


----------



## Radio Enginerd

AirRocker said:


> Me neither... Have they been there that long?? Looks like 2 for 103, 101, 119, and 110 (an even and an odd for each)....


For those of us not in front of a TV, are the airing anything?


----------



## Doug Brott

Radio Enginerd said:


> You just know the mods know something right now.
> 
> Very tricksy I say.


:sure:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Radio Enginerd said:


> For those of us not in front of a TV, are the airing anything?


Nope... Just a black screen with a blue box in the bottom right corner that says "Test 1 SAT A (101) Odd Txp 13V"


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Ok... I've scanned the entire guide... I'm not seeing what the mods are hinting at... So I'm guessing maybe they've bumped an SD channel to HD??


----------



## Doug Brott

AirRocker said:


> I just noticed all the test channels in the 480-490's... I don't venture down that far very often... How long have those been there??





LameLefty said:


> They were initially setup after D10 was parked. I haven't looked up there in months.


I haven't looked in a couple of months but I was playing around with these not that long ago. Certainly long after D10 was put into service. I don't think that these can be considered "new" at this point ..


----------



## FHSPSU67

I can say that I routinely check the 480's and they've pretty much been there since Directv 10.


----------



## krock918316

AirRocker said:


> Ok... I've scanned the entire guide... I'm not seeing what the mods are hinting at... So I'm guessing maybe they've bumped an SD channel to HD??


I can't check myself, but maybe one of the channels has been changed from MPEG2 to MPEG4?

Move the highlight in the guide all the way to the left on some of the MPEG2 HD channels, and see if it says anything about MPEG4 now? (Like ESPNHD 7x is MPEG2, but they have changed 206 to MPEG4)

Just guessing. I would check myself, but I forgot to fire up my Slingbox (wait.....that's right, I don't have one  )


----------



## lobofanina

My guess is content is already showing up on peoples receivers who have the special smart cards, just like what happened with D10. A few days after that content appeared for a select few DirecTV threw everyone else who cared a bone and began cycling new HD programming (Animal Planet, HGTV, National Geographic etc.)on a couple channels. About a week later the first new HD channels appeared permanently.


----------



## LameLefty

lobofanina said:


> My guess is content is already showing up on peoples receivers who have the special smart cards, just like what happened with D10. A few days after that content appeared for a select few DirecTV threw everyone else who cared a bone and began cycling new HD programming (Animal Planet, HGTV, National Geographic etc.)on a couple channels. About a week later the first new HD channels appeared permanently.


Oh I have no doubt folks with engineering test cards have been seeing stuff for a good while, probably since the initial tests at 99 before the temporary move to 101 and now again since the transponders all lit up.


----------



## Ernie

cartrivision said:


> As has been pointed out over and over again every time this 1080p subject comes up, 24fps source that is broadcast in 1080i, contains every bit of information that would be in a 1080p/24 encoding of the same source. 1080i/60 can deliver 1080p video at 30fps.... obviously a fast enough frame rate to deliver 1080p at 24 fps.
> 
> Is short, broadcasting 24fps film source in 1080p24 adds NOTHING in terms of additional picture information compared to 1080i.


Technically correct. However, from a marketing prospective, they are no longer being "beaten" by Blu-Ray. Thats probably enough incentive for the feature to become available sometime.

Ernie


----------



## LameLefty

Ernie said:


> Technically correct. However, from a marketing prospective, they are no longer being "beaten" by Blu-Ray. Thats probably enough incentive for the feature to become available sometime.
> 
> Ernie


They can claim whatever they want, but it's unlikely most stuff sent over IPTV, broadband VOD, or special satellite PPV feeds will have the same bitrate as a well-mastered Blu-Ray disc. I've seen some really, really excellent MPEG4 1080i HD that rivals Blu-Ray, but nothing (yet?) that beats it. I guess time will tell.


----------



## Matt9876

Whats tricky is the Engineering mode DirecTV has,weeks before D10 went active there was a long list of hidden channels in the 9000s.

With channel 9300 and 9301 becoming active to the general public.

Also 9301 was shut down a few days later if you didn't have premier/sports pak. 


I'm sure testing is in progress now and the insiders have seen video many times already from D11.

It's all about flipping the software switches and giving the public a look.

Come on DirecTV throw us a bone.


----------



## DarinC

cartrivision said:


> Is short, broadcasting 24fps film source in 1080p24 adds NOTHING in terms of additional picture information compared to 1080i.


OT, but....
There is one slight difference... if the source 24fps, broadcast in 24fps, and output as 24fps, you have the potential of judder-free video if your display _properly_ supports a 24fps content. But if it's converted to 60hz via 3:2 pulldown, you introduce judder. It is _possible_ to do a reverse pulldown then bring it back up to 120hz via 5:5 pulldown, but it appears that Faroudja has a patent on that process. I don't know if any current displays can actually do that. I think for the most part, they will treat a 60hz input as is. Of course, many displays don't even process 24hz properly (some apply 3:2 anyway, then double it to 120hz), but some do.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> As has been pointed out over and over again every time this 1080p subject comes up, 24fps source that is broadcast in 1080i, contains every bit of information that would be in a 1080p/24 encoding of the same source. 1080i/60 can deliver 1080p video at 30fps.... obviously a fast enough frame rate to deliver 1080p at 24 fps.
> 
> Is short, broadcasting 24fps film source in 1080p24 adds NOTHING in terms of additional picture information compared to 1080i.


On single full frame you are correct... but the timing is correct for the motion in frame by frame as it was in the original source.

But this is not a 1080p thread. We gots thems elsewhere.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> But this is not a 1080p thread. We gots thems elsewhere.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


But pretty soon we'll have a "Saw the first new D11 HD Channels thread"....


----------



## Tom Robertson

We already have those. We'll just use the existing one. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MIAMI1683

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But pretty soon we'll have a "Saw the first new D11 HD Channels thread"....


 alas,,,,,but who has seen it  , or them?

Edit : Has anyone is my question!


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Oh I have no doubt folks with engineering test cards have been seeing stuff for a good while, probably since the initial tests at 99 before the temporary move to 101 and now again since the transponders all lit up.


Oh, I don't think _everyone_ with engineering cards saw them at the first two test locations... I think those activations happened until yesterday.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Oh, I don't think _everyone_ with engineering cards saw them at the first two test locations... I think those activations happened until yesterday.


Shameless tease. 

Personal foul, 15 yards. Taunting.


----------



## Dolly

Believe me folks DBSTalk.Com has everything covered always :goodjob: I looked for a better Sat. Forum site and it can not be found as far as I'm concerned :sunsmile: Now to get back on topic--come on D11 let us see you in all your glory :yesman:


----------



## MIAMI1683

Tom Robertson said:


> Oh, I don't think _everyone_ with engineering cards saw them at the first two test locations... I think those activations happened until yesterday.


 Do you have to have an enginerring card right now?


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Shameless tease.
> 
> Personal foul, 15 yards. Taunting.


Thank you. It's so hard to draw that penalty these days without being outright ejected... 

And truthfully, I do not have any engineering card(s), I do not have any extra test channels from the rest of you (of course we all have the 480s and 490s), and I don't see any programming from D11 yet. (And I don't have any D11 receivers either.) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## ddobson

MIAMI1683 said:


> Do you have to have an enginerring card right now?


Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer, Today I are one


----------



## MIAMI1683

ddobson said:


> Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer, Today I are one


im still at work sorry.... Engineering :sure: !


----------



## QuickDrop

Ernie said:


> Technically correct. However, from a marketing prospective, they are no longer being "beaten" by Blu-Ray. Thats probably enough incentive for the feature to become available sometime.
> 
> Ernie


Personally, as someone who only owns 1080P sets, I hope DirecTV doesn't follow Dish in adding 1080P content. As others have and will say, it means almost absolutely nothing outside of advertisement. If they want to add one PPV in 1080P for advertisement purposes, I'll accept it, but really 1080P would do nothing but cost cost us picture quality (due to greater compression) or more national channels in 1080i or 720P, which is the resolution they are designed to be in. If an actual channel decides to broadcast in 1080P, which I highly doubt, given the limited bandwidth on most cable systems, I may change my mind. Until then, broadcasting in 1080P is merely a gimmick, designed only to give the illusion of supremacy in the HD market without actually delivering.


----------



## Doug Brott

LameLefty said:


> Shameless tease.
> 
> Personal foul, 15 yards. Taunting.


I'm sure Tom's view won't change from 15 yards back ..


----------



## kymikes

OK, I'm a bit uninformed apparently. I am seeing the new sat. signals on 99(c) on an HR21 in levels from 85 - 95. However, on my H21, on 99(a) I see mostly 0' with three transponders in the 40's. Same dish, multi-switch, etc. Does the H21 need some other software change to see the new sat.?? or have I missed a point in this lengthy thread??

Thanks for any info to the uninformed.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure Tom's view won't change from 15 yards back ..


 But whats he viewing   ?


----------



## curt8403

kymikes said:


> OK, I'm a bit uninformed apparently. I am seeing the new sat. signals on 99(c) on an HR21 in levels from 85 - 95. However, on my H21, on 99(a) I see mostly 0' with three transponders in the 40's. Same dish, multi-switch, etc. Does the H21 need some other software change to see the new sat.?? or have I missed a point in this lengthy thread??
> 
> Thanks for any info to the uninformed.


your 99(a) on the H21 is most likely the old Spaceways sat that is spotbeams. do you see a 99(B) in same unit?


----------



## Tom Robertson

MIAMI1683 said:


> But whats he viewing   ?


At this moment? DIRECTV, of course.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom Robertson said:


> At this moment? DIRECTV, of course.


well of course .. what else would it be


----------



## kymikes

curt8403 said:


> your 99(a) on the H21 is most likely the old Spaceways sat that is spotbeams. do you see a 99(B) in same unit?


I do have a 99(b) but it only has 6 transponders showing and they range from 0 (on 2) , high 40's (2) and the last two in mid 90's. This seemed like spot's but I thought I saw in an earlier post that the H21's would come in on 99(a) and it showed 14 transponders which seemed to make sense.


----------



## Tom Robertson

kymikes said:


> I do have a 99(b) but it only has 6 transponders showing and they range from 0 (on 2) , high 40's (2) and the last two in mid 90's. This seemed like spot's but I thought I saw in an earlier post that the H21's would come in on 99(a) and it showed 14 transponders which seemed to make sense.


To see D11, you should be looking at 99(a). 99(b) is the spotbeams from S2.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

I'm seeing readings on 99(c) on all 14 active transponders bouncing all over the place at the moment, from zero to lower/mid 90's, there were solid earlier today. Either someone at D*'s having a lot of fun or I have a problem.


----------



## carl6

Tom Robertson said:


> (And I don't have any D11 receivers either.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Hmmm. Maybe I should reactivate one of my D11 receivers?:lol:


----------



## Sixto

Added the best guess at the upcoming HD LIL's to the other thread.

Best guess is based on LRF's vs no-HD today ...

Also may expect more LIL within some existing markets (PBS?) ...


----------



## kymikes

Tom Robertson said:


> To see D11, you should be looking at 99(a). 99(b) is the spotbeams from S2.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, thanks for your quick response. That matches what I thought I read earlier in the thread. My original question was why I would be seeing zero's on 99(a) on the H21 while I was seeing "normal" levels on 99(c) on my HR21 but while I was typing this question, the levels on 99(a) jumped to similiar levels as the HR21 so it must just be part of "testing". Apparently some aspects of what is being tested affect the different receivers perception of signal strength in different ways. Just curious - I wasn't about to "hit the roof" at this point. Thanks again.


----------



## dem

RAD said:


> I'm seeing readings on 99(c) on all 14 active transponders bouncing all over the place at the moment, from zero to lower/mid 90's, there were solid earlier today. Either someone at D*'s having a lot of fun or I have a problem.


I see it too. They're switching on and off all over the place. I've seen as few as one left on.


----------



## seern

RAD said:


> I'm seeing readings on 99(c) on all 14 active transponders bouncing all over the place at the moment, from zero to lower/mid 90's, there were solid earlier today. Either someone at D*'s having a lot of fun or I have a problem.


No problem at your end. I noticed that my readings were a lot lower this afternoon then this am or yesterday. TP 15 & 16 are at zero most of the time. Also the spot signals I started getting yesterday off 99 b/s are not as strong. TP 4 was holding at 92, now its at 80 or less. Still based on what Sixto posted about upcoming HD locals, I am pleased to see signals off 99 b/s.


----------



## henryld

RAD said:


> I'm seeing readings on 99(c) on all 14 active transponders bouncing all over the place at the moment, from zero to lower/mid 90's, there were solid earlier today. Either someone at D*'s having a lot of fun or I have a problem.


+1. Also seeing 99s activity.


----------



## drbonbi

curt8403 said:


> your 99(a) on the H21 is most likely the old Spaceways sat that is spotbeams. do you see a 99(B) in same unit?


We've been told on this thread that 99 (c) on DVRs = 99 (a) on receivers. 99 (b) is apparently spotbeams on both.

Just repeating what's been said.

Dana


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

drbonbi said:


> We've been told on this thread that 99 (c) on DVRs = 99 (a) on receivers. 99 (b) is apparently spotbeams on both.
> 
> Just repeating what's been said.
> 
> Dana


That is correct except the spot beam SAT is 99(s) on DVR's.


----------



## rey_1178

dem said:


> I see it too. They're switching on and off all over the place. I've seen as few as one left on.


yeah they're having fun up there. i see it to.


----------



## texasbrit

seern said:


> No problem at your end. I noticed that my readings were a lot lower this afternoon then this am or yesterday. TP 15 & 16 are at zero most of the time. Also the spot signals I started getting yesterday off 99 b/s are not as strong. TP 4 was holding at 92, now its at 80 or less. Still based on what Sixto posted about upcoming HD locals, I am pleased to see signals off 99 b/s.


I don't think any of the new DirecTV11 spotbeam signals are showing up on 99(b)/(s) yet. The ones that are there are TPs 1-6 which are the transponders from Spaceway 2 at 99. The DirecTV11 ones I assume will be above TP6, which are still N/A.


----------



## drbonbi

Michael D'Angelo;1693520 said:


> That is correct except the spot beam SAT is 99(s) on DVR's.


Thanks! 

Dana


----------



## Tom Robertson

I don't have any new spotbeam TPs here either. We're not seeing any tests if they are running them. (And I suspect they are.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Did everyone give up? I figured things would have cleared up by now ..


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Doug Brott said:


> Did everyone give up? I figured things would have cleared up by now ..


:scratchin


----------



## syphix

Whoa....lost a few transponders...0's on 5, 6, 9, & 11.

EDIT: now 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13.....odd transponders (other than 1).


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Whoa....lost a few transponders...0's on 5, 6, 9, & 11.


I still have all 14.


----------



## syphix

HR20-700:
89 90 85 87 0 87 0 86
0 88 0 86 0 91

HR21-700:
91 93 87 87 88 90 87 88
91 90 88 88 91 92

What the heck??


----------



## houskamp

soooooo, will I have a sat to tweak the alignment next wed?


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> Whoa....lost a few transponders...0's on 5, 6, 9, & 11.
> 
> EDIT: now 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13.....odd transponders (other than 1).


I have been losing transponders one minute... getting them the next. There appears to be a pattern... so I doubt it's my equipment.

~Alan


----------



## PaulieORF

I'm getting screen grabs and will explain in a few minutes...


----------



## syphix

Alan Gordon said:


> I have been losing transponders one minute... getting them the next. There appears to be a pattern... so I doubt it's my equipment.
> 
> ~Alan


On a HR20-700?

My HR21 shows fine signal levels...and my HR20 shows fine signal levels when I got into the individual transponder meters...just not on the grid. Might the software/hardware on the HR20 simply skip by transponders too quickly when acquiring a "lock"?

EDIT: I'm also using an SWM...might that slow down signal acquisition (though both the HR20 & HR21 are using the SWM)?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> Did everyone give up? I figured things would have cleared up by now ..


Not me, I'm still watching DIRECTV


----------



## PaulieORF

I live in Connecticut, so I get blacked out of Mets games that are on ESPN HD. I tuned to ESPN HD on 206 just after 7:00, and saw the Phillies and Mets are playing, so naturally the game search feature came up and started searching for the game. I expected it to find that the game is on SNY HD on channel 625, but was suprised to see that it said it found the game on channel 9323, and it asked me to tune to it. See the picture below:









So I hit select on "Go to new channel" to see what this was. It sent me to ESPN HD's broadcast of the game on channel 9323 which is labeled "TEST". I can only think that this is a test channel for the MPEG 4 simulcast of ESPN HD, which I would assume is coming from D11. The channel does not show in the channel guide, and I also cannot tune to the channel by entering 9323 on my remote. A screen shot of the channel tuned in is below. What do you guys think, is this what I think it is?


----------



## HD30TV

PaulieORF said:


> I'm getting screen grabs and will explain in a few minutes...


Somebody's gonna be a hero or a goat......


----------



## HD30TV

Son of a... one time I wanna be blacked out on ESPN, and I'm not.

Can't check to confirm.


----------



## syphix

EXPERTS: how can he confirm if that channel is MPEG4/D11?

It won't allow direct dialing to it...


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> On a HR20-700?
> 
> My HR21 shows fine signal levels...and my HR20 shows fine signal levels when I got into the individual transponder meters...just not on the grid. Might the software/hardware on the HR20 simply skip by transponders too quickly when acquiring a "lock"?
> 
> EDIT: I'm also using an SWM...might that slow down signal acquisition (though both the HR20 & HR21 are using the SWM)?


Yeah, on an HR20-700.

Multiple times today, I have been getting readings on all transponders but the first six. Multiple times today, I have also been getting readings on all transponders but the first 8.

~Alan


----------



## PaulieORF

syphix said:


> EXPERTS: how can he confirm if that channel is MPEG4/D11?
> 
> It won't allow direct dialing to it...


SHall I set my HR21 to triple LNB mode and try? If I do this and this is indeed D11, it should not let me tune to this channel, right?


----------



## Doug Brott

Nice find PaulieORF


----------



## sigma1914

Dang, now I want a Slingbox!

Back to topic...Is the PQ better on the TEST channel?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

PaulieORF said:


> SHall I set my HR21 to triple LNB mode and try?


You could also remove the BBC/'s and see if you lose it.


----------



## sigma1914

syphix said:


> EXPERTS: how can he confirm if that channel is MPEG4/D11?
> 
> It won't allow direct dialing to it...


Pull the BBC?


----------



## PaulieORF

sigma1914 said:


> Dang, now I want a Slingbox!
> 
> Back to topic...Is the PQ better on the TEST channel?


I can't tell, since ESPN HD on 206 (and 73) are blacked out. It would probably be hard to tell anyway since ESPN HD is a 720p channel,which I don't think would show hardly any difference.


----------



## seern

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't have any new spotbeam TPs here either. We're not seeing any tests if they are running them. (And I suspect they are.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


OK, they why am I now getting signals on the 99 b/s tp's when I never did before?


----------



## syphix

Alan Gordon said:


> Yeah, on an HR20-700.
> 
> Multiple times today, I have been getting readings on all transponders but the first six. Multiple times today, I have also been getting readings on all transponders but the first 8.
> 
> ~Alan


I think it's a bug on the HR20's acquiring of signals for testing....it should work just fine once channels get put up.


----------



## Sirshagg

PaulieORF said:


> So I hit select on "Go to new channel" to see what this was. It sent me to ESPN HD's broadcast of the game on channel 9323 which is labeled "TEST". I can only think that this is a test channel for the MPEG 4 simulcast of ESPN HD, which I would assume is coming from D11. The channel does not show in the channel guide, and I also cannot tune to the channel by entering 9323 on my remote. A screen shot of the channel tuned in is below. What do you guys think, is this what I think it is?


I'm guessing yes and that gamesearch is an unintended back door to get to the test channel. (Looks like that feature works well!)


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Same test channel also reported here.....http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133971


----------



## Doug Brott

sigma1914 said:


> Dang, now I want a Slingbox!
> 
> Back to topic...Is the PQ better on the TEST channel?


That actually will be a good test. I wonder if I should dig out the HR10 in my closet.


----------



## HD30TV

So why wouldn't they make it available to everyone, to make sure its available to all?

What better way to test?? 


(yes, I'm a slight bit jealous)


----------



## Tom Robertson

HD30TV said:


> Somebody's gonna be a hero or a goat......


Actually, we could have one each 

Great find PaulieORF!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Doug Brott said:


> That actually will be a good test. I wonder if I should dig out the HR10 in my closet.


the picture of the marching ants on an Hr10 is probably much better with the new satellite up/


----------



## syphix

HD30TV said:


> So why wouldn't they make it available to everyone, to make sure its available to all?


As suggested, it's probably unintended...a "bug/feature" of the software -- something the guys testing D11 probably didn't write.


----------



## bhelton71

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't have any new spotbeam TPs here either. We're not seeing any tests if they are running them. (And I suspect they are.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


There might be a difference on mine - not normally much of a transponder 'watcher' - but I believe out of 6 transponders for some reason I think I previously only had signal on 2 - now I have signal on all 6 and at least 4 of them would be watchable (>60)


----------



## LameLefty

Cool find, PaulieORF. :goodjob:


----------



## bhelton71

syphix said:


> As suggested, it's probably unintended...a "bug/feature" of the software -- something the guys testing D11 probably didn't write.


I am thinking the game finder is too good for its own good maybe.

PaulieORF - good find - if its a D11 test channel thats cool and if its a 'hidden' channel on the existing sats - well its probably a bug  - does the channel show up in your guide ?


----------



## JayPSU

I tried getting game finder by seeing the Phils game on SNY which should black me out since I live in Ohio. NOPE, it lets me go there so I couldn't initiate it. Same thing when I tried it on MLB which I don't sub to...it let me in, so no game search initiated. Weird.


----------



## Tom Robertson

I bet they are just teasing us... taunting, laughing, gently laughing at our responses


----------



## Mertzen

Man this stuff is getting me all giddy. Such a shame my HR20 is gathering dust since my landlord doesn't want me to put a dish down. GRRR. Maybe at the girlfriend soon.


----------



## tcusta00

Tom Robertson said:


> I bet they are just teasing us... taunting, laughing, gently laughing at our responses


Except not gently.... it's spurting coffee out their noses laughing as they toy with our emotions. :lol:


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> I bet they are just teasing us... taunting, laughing, gently laughing at our responses


....or figuring out a way to lock the test channel out!! Glad to see D11 works!! :up: Let's light 'er up!!


----------



## PaulieORF

I removed both of my BBCs and connected the cables straight to my HR21 while I was still tuned to the channel (9323). The channel never came back on, the screen was just frozen with the 711 - searching for satellite box. I then tuned to make sure I could get another MPEG2 HD channel in (72 - ESPN2 HD) and it worked. I then tuned to channel 206 again and ran the game search (keep in mind BBCs are off) and game search just runs on end and never finishes, I gave it almost 5 minutes. I then reconnected my BBCs, ran game search, and again it found 9323 and let me tune to it.

I'm convinced, this is D11.


----------



## seern

bhelton71 said:


> There might be a difference on mine - not normally much of a transponder 'watcher' - but I believe out of 6 transponders for some reason I think I previously only had signal on 2 - now I have signal on all 6 and at least 4 of them would be watchable (>60)


It doesn't seem that the real veterans here want to address this, since I have posted several times that I am getting signals on 4 of the 6 tp's from 99 b/s when I never got any prior to 99 a/c starting to send.


----------



## syphix

JayPSU said:


> I tried getting game finder by seeing the Phils game on SNY which should black me out since I live in Ohio. NOPE, it lets me go there so I couldn't initiate it. Same thing when I tried it on MLB which I don't sub to...it let me in, so no game search initiated. Weird.


There's a free preview of Extra Innings (the baseball package). You should get virtually every game being played....through tonight.


----------



## syphix

PaulieORF said:


> I removed both of my BBCs and connected the cables straight to my HR21 while I was still tuned to the channel. The channel never came back on, the screen was just frozen with the 711 - searching for satellite box. I then tuned to amke sure I could get another MPEG2 HD channel in (72 - ESPN2 HD) and it worked. I then tuned to channel 206 again and rant he game search (keep in mind BBCs are off) and game search just runs on end and never finishes, I gave it almost 5 minutes. I then reconnected my BBCs, ran game search, and again it found 9323 and let me tune to it.
> 
> I'm convinced, this is D11.


That pretty much confirms it as being D11!! Removing the BBC's and having it come up 711 would indicate either D10 or D11...and since they have no reason to be testing ESPN-HD on D10, it's GOT to be D11!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I suspect they've got their hands full trying to methodically do system and other checks to prepare for HD LIL and National HD channel launches. 

All this other interim stuff is part of what we just happen to see along the way of tests, channel alignments and transponder tweaking.

But then....we could be getting 50 new HD channels tomorrow too......:lol: :lol:


----------



## bhelton71

seern said:


> It doesn't seem that the real veterans here want to address this, since I have posted several times that I am getting signals on 4 of the 6 tp's from 99 b/s when I never got any prior to 99 a/c starting to send.


Well - you should take my observation with some skepticism - I am really into this part of the whole operation for the second time ever (the first being D10 of course) - so I am not the most likely to notice which transponders are lit and what 'level' they are. Other than new sats coming online - couldn't normally care less about transponders - I just know they are there. 

Also they are spot beams so it really will depend where you are I assume if you would see any difference (assuming they are 'aimed' at their proper targets)


----------



## cajunbug

Getting 90s on 99(c) except TP 1,3,9,11

37+ on 99(s) on TP 5

EDIT: in Baton Rouge Market


----------



## LameLefty

I don't see a change with my transponder readings on 99(s) here in the Nashville area.


----------



## harsh

sigma1914 said:


> Is the PQ better on the TEST channel?


Pretty difficult to tell with a Slingbox as they aren't HD.


----------



## DodgerKing

Mine are all strong on tuner 2, but tuner 1 is low on the first two. When I switched the BBC's nothing changed.


----------



## PaulieORF

harsh said:


> Pretty difficult to tell with a Slingbox as they aren't HD.


I'm at home, so I was only using the Slingbox to get the screen grabs. But again, I can't compare since the REAL ESNP HD is blacked out.


----------



## joebbaseball

PaulieORF said:


> I live in Connecticut, so I get blacked out of Mets games that are on ESPN HD. I tuned to ESPN HD on 206 just after 7:00, and saw the Phillies and Mets are playing, so naturally the game search feature came up and started searching for the game. I expected it to find that the game is on SNY HD on channel 625, but was suprised to see that it said it found the game on channel 9323, and it asked me to tune to it. See the picture below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I hit select on "Go to new channel" to see what this was. It sent me to ESPN HD's broadcast of the game on channel 9323 which is labeled "TEST". I can only think that this is a test channel for the MPEG 4 simulcast of ESPN HD, which I would assume is coming from D11. The channel does not show in the channel guide, and I also cannot tune to the channel by entering 9323 on my remote. A screen shot of the channel tuned in is below. What do you guys think, is this what I think it is?


I did exactly the same thing, and the first and only thing to come to mind was an mpeg4 test. I don't have the tech. ability to prove that though. Pitcher is a little sloppy.
Joe


----------



## DodgerKing

harsh said:


> Pretty difficult to tell with a Slingbox as they aren't HD.


Also, with testing they sometimes don't put out the full rez and are constantly adjusting things so the image can actually be worse.

I remember when they were testing the science channel HD for D10 and most of the shows had about 1 inch border around the picture and the image was better than SD, but not near as good as it was once it went live.


----------



## Doug Brott

Well the town has gone bonkers with this news .. :lol:


----------



## syphix

joebbaseball said:


> Pitcher is a little sloppy.


The "_pitcher_" on the mound? Or the "_picture_" on the TV? If the _picture_ is "sloppy", explain, please....how is the picture "sloppy"?

If it's the _pitcher_, I hear "we want a pitcher, not a belly itcher" works well.


----------



## bhelton71

Doug Brott said:


> Well the town has gone bonkers with this news .. :lol:


Its like finding a golden ticket.


----------



## MikeR7

I am getting all signals on my HR20-100, but missing transponders on the HR20-700. Strange.


----------



## syphix

MikeR7 said:


> I am getting all signals on my HR20-100, but missing transponders on the HR20-700. Strange.


Try using the signal meter to jump through the transponders...I found that the HR20-700 seems to check levels too quickly on the transponder grid...doesn't seem to acquire a signal before reporting the level.


----------



## PaulieORF

I don't know if this is karma or something, but my HR21 just rebooted itself (while tuned to 9323) and now the initial setup isn't receiving any satellite signal!


----------



## syphix

PaulieORF said:


> I don't know if this is karma or something, but my HR21 just rebooted itself (while tuned to 9323) and now the initial setup isn't receiving any satellite signal!


Hmm...not good...try rebooting, and making sure your cables are completely connected (after you removed and replaced the BBC's).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

PaulieORF said:


> I don't know if this is karma or something, but my HR21 just rebooted itself (while tuned to 9323) and now the initial setup isn't receiving any satellite signal!


The transponder police have finally caught up with you...


----------



## DodgerKing

PaulieORF said:


> I don't know if this is karma or something, but my HR21 just rebooted itself (while tuned to 9323) and now the initial setup isn't receiving any satellite signal!


They probably think you were trying to steal their signal... :eek2:


----------



## PaulieORF

I checked my connections they were fine, I then unplugged for a couple of minutes and then plugged back in with no luck. I then restarted the receiver and initiated software download (02468) and it found the 255 software and starte dwonloading it, so I THINK I'm safe now..


----------



## Doug Brott

PaulieORF said:


> I don't know if this is karma or something, but my HR21 just rebooted itself (while tuned to 9323) and now the initial setup isn't receiving any satellite signal!


oops ..


----------



## Tom Robertson

+1


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> I bet they are just teasing us... taunting, laughing, gently laughing at our responses


Or freaked out that the bug allowed a channel from D11 to be seen in the wild.:lol:


----------



## PaulieORF

I actually think it was a sign from the baseball gods telling me I should tune back into NESN and watch the Red Sox in extra innings!!! I swear Red Sox, I wasn't cheating on you!!!!


----------



## houskamp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect they've got their hands full trying to methodically do system and other checks to prepare for HD LIL and National HD channel launches.
> 
> All this other interim stuff is part of what we just happen to see along the way of tests, channel alignments and transponder tweaking.
> 
> But then....we could be getting 50 new HD channels tomorrow too......:lol: :lol:


too busy selling squares on the "how soon is there a post on DBSTalk after we throw this switch?" chart :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

PaulieORF said:


> I checked my connections they were fine, I then unplugged for a couple of minutes and then plugged back in with no luck. I then restarted the receiver and initiated software download (02468) and it found the 255 software and starte dwonloading it, so I THINK I'm safe now..


If you were already at 0x255, you likely can reboot again before 90% and get up faster.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## PaulieORF

Tom Robertson said:


> If you were already at 0x255, you likely can reboot again before 90% and get up faster.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the tip!!


----------



## DodgerKing

PaulieORF said:


> I actually think it was a sign from the baseball gods telling me I should tune back into NESN and watch the Red Sox in extra innings!!! I swear Red Sox, I wasn't cheating on you!!!!


Of for attempting to watch a NY game (even though it isn't the Yanks, it is still close enough)...:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

houskamp said:


> too busy selling squares on the "how soon is there a post on DBSTalk after we throw this switch?" chart :lol:


Now that's just bad


----------



## PaulieORF

I just saw that my discovery of the probable D11 test channel was my 100th post, way to reach a (small) milestone! :goodjob:


----------



## Tom Robertson

houskamp said:


> too busy selling squares on the "how soon is there a post on DBSTalk after we throw this switch?" chart :lol:


They tried that last time. I got a note that they couldn't measure time units that small accurately enough for the pool.

So I hear they are going with who will make the first post.

Edit: oops. "I shouldn't have said that" Now people will be reporting sightings all over the place...


----------



## Tom Robertson

PaulieORF said:


> I just saw that my discovery of the probable D11 test channel was my 100th post, way to reach a (small) milestone! :goodjob:


That is awesome! (But since you've been here two years, you obviously have been watching a lot of DIRECTV and not posting...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

Any luck getting it up, PaulieORF?

(man, that sounds bad...go ahead, make a Viagra joke...)


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> Any luck getting it up, PaulieORF?
> 
> (man, that sounds bad...go ahead, make a Viagra joke...)


Especially when it is named paulieorf....


----------



## bhelton71

syphix said:


> Any luck getting it up, PaulieORF?
> 
> (man, that sounds bad...go ahead, make a Viagra joke...)


Shouldn't you get a phone number first  ?


----------



## syphix

Hey, at least I didn't ask if he needed any _help_!! 

Gee...I hope my wife doesn't surf this forum...


----------



## Tom Robertson

She might not, but blackmailers do...


----------



## Sixto

Funny ... somebody in El Segundo saying "Geez, didn't think of that!" (Gamesearch finding that hidden channel) ... cool find!  

Very nice.

Taking the BBC off somewhat clinches the D11 theory.


----------



## PaulieORF

syphix said:


> Any luck getting it up, PaulieORF?
> 
> (man, that sounds bad...go ahead, make a Viagra joke...)


I was able to get it up with relative ease, thanks for asking.

P.S. I was also able to get my HR21 working again too!!!! :hurah:


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> She might not, but blackmailers do...


[Eric Cartman]
God, I hate you guys.
[/Eric Cartman]


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Funny ... somebody in El Segundo saying "Geez, didn't think of that!" (Gamesearch finding that hidden channel) ... cool find!
> 
> Very nice.
> 
> Taking the BBC off somewhat clinches the D11 theory.


Nope, the channel 9323 coming from Net#11 ie 99(b), I saw it three days ago at least. There are more in range 9320...9401.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Nope, the channel 9323 coming from Net#11 ie 99(b), I saw it three days ago at least.


From a spotbeam?


----------



## PaulieORF

P Smith said:


> Nope, the channel 9323 coming from Net#11 ie 99(b), I saw it three days ago at least.


I thought these were all spot beams on 99b? Also, how did you get to it?


----------



## krock918316

Ok - taking a stab at my idea from earlier (about a possible mirrored channel being moved to MPEG4, D11).

Went through the guide and found something at HDTH. All of the other channels in the guide have the same channel description on both channels. Except for HD Theater:

On 76, it is listed as *HD Theater*
On 281, it is listed as *HD Theater (281)*

I can't tell on my TV if the picture quality is any better, but I thought I would throw it out there.


----------



## syphix

Might it have been remapped to D11 since then? Why "test" ESPN-HD on a D10 spotbeam??


----------



## syphix

krock918316 said:


> Ok - taking a stab at my idea from earlier (about a possible mirrored channel being moved to MPEG4).
> 
> Went through the guide and found something at HDTH. All of the other channels in the guide have the same channel description on both channels. Except for HD Theater:
> 
> On 76, it is listed as *HD Theater*
> On 281, it is listed as *HD Theater (281)*
> 
> I can't tell on my TV if the picture quality is any better, but I thought I would throw it out there.


Until somehow proven otherwise, 281 is simply a mirror of 76...still in MPEG2. It's been there for a while.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> From a spotbeam?


Can't tell.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Nope, the channel 9323 coming from Net#11 ie 99(b), I saw it three days ago at least. There are more in range 9320...9401.


Was like that 3 days ago. How about now?

What exactly is "net#11"?


----------



## krock918316

syphix said:


> Until somehow proven otherwise, 281 is simply a mirror of 76...still in MPEG2. It's been there for a while.


I know it has been there for a while (I've always blocked the 70's channels from the guide), but the mods are hinting at something


----------



## Sixto

krock918316 said:


> Ok - taking a stab at my idea from earlier (about a possible mirrored channel being moved to MPEG4, D11).
> 
> Went through the guide and found something at HDTH. All of the other channels in the guide have the same channel description on both channels. Except for HD Theater:
> 
> On 76, it is listed as *HD Theater*
> On 281, it is listed as *HD Theater (281)*
> 
> I can't tell on my TV if the picture quality is any better, but I thought I would throw it out there.


Been that way for a very long time: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## krock918316

Sixto said:


> Always been that way: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


Has the channel description always been HD Theater (281)? I understand it has always been mapped from 76.


----------



## Sixto

Need to find a gizmo that allows one to filter out one transponder at a time to map all these MPEG4 transponders ...


----------



## ncxcstud

on 99(c) i've got signals on 
i've got consistent signals on 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,12,13,14 (all between 88-94)

1,7, and 11 randomly switch from 0 to 90s


----------



## syphix

a) 76 has NOT "always" been mirrored to 281. Only since 1/6/08.

b) No, Discovery changed "Discovery HD Theater" to be "HD Theater" last September.


----------



## LameLefty

Flipping back and forth between them I can't see any difference in PQ, so I don't think that's what the Mods have been hinting about.


----------



## PaulieORF

P Smith said:


> Can't tell.


Why didn't you mention back a few days ago that you saw this? Also, how did you see channel 9323? How did you get to it?


----------



## tuff bob

Sixto said:


> Need to find a gizmo that allows one to filter out one transponder at a time to map all these MPEG4 transponders ...


a sonora power locker would allow you to isolate between 103 and 99, and the BBC's allow you to isolate conus (B band) from the 101 and (103/99) spot beam band


----------



## DodgerKing

PaulieORF said:


> Why didn't you mention back a few days ago that you saw this? Also, how did you see channel 9323? How did you get to it?


He has been very critical of D11 and has been wrong about it several times while praising E11. I don't doubt his honesty, I just doubt his interpretation of the events.


----------



## Sixto

Trying to find a photo of the internals of the center LNB of an AU9. Is it possible to somehow block the 99 satellite and only let threw 101 & 103? 

Rather have a gizmo to block frequencies but thinking of reverting to a physical means.

Trying to think this thru. If we wanted to artificially block 99, 110, and 119.


----------



## PaulieORF

DodgerKing said:


> He has been very critical of D11 and has been wrong about it several times while praising E11. I don't doubt his honesty, I just doubt his interpretation of the events.


I find it interesting that he had known about this for 3 days now, but did not post about it. I know I couldn't wait to share this with you guys.


----------



## markp

I am blacked out on 206 (Mets/Phillies) and also can get to 9323 by proceeding to the GameSearch option. Very freaking cool!

Sooo..the only folks able to get to 9323 are people blacked out on 206?


----------



## Sixto

tuff bob said:


> a sonora power locker would allow you to isolate between 103 and 99, and the BBC's allow you to isolate conus (B band) from the 101 and (103/99) spot beam band


yep, but don't have one of those. Trying to think thru the next best possible option.

Actually it's not going to do me any good since the dish is on the roof! High on the roof ... 

But someone else may be able to try whatever we come up with.


----------



## jefbal99

Can any of these people with 9323 hit guide and then left arrow to the test channel name for any information?


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> Trying to find a photo of the internals of the center LNB of an AU9. Is it possible to somehow block the 99 satellite and only let threw 101 & 103?
> 
> Rather have a gizmo to block frequencies but thinking of reverting to a physical means.
> 
> Trying to think this thru. If we wanted to artificially block 99, 110, and 119.


If you pop the plastic cover off the center LNB feedhorn on the slimline, you could stick your finger in each of the different feedhorn tubes going down to the LNBs for 99, 101, and 103.


----------



## PaulieORF

jefbal99 said:


> Can any of these people with 9323 hit guide and then left arrow to the test channel name for any information?


The channel does not show up in the guide. When you hit guide, the selected channel is one of the XM Business channels.


----------



## syphix

"Blocking 110/119" is easy on a AT-9 (sidecar): remove the sidecar. Then you can ONLY see 99/101/103. Next step, blocking 101 & 103...

Besides, removing the BBC and getting 771 proves MPEG4 off 99/103...

Or maybe P Smith can shed some light on how he knows that 9323 is NOT off 99...please explain like you would to a thread full of idiots.


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> If you pop the plastic cover off the center LNB feedhorn on the slimline, you could stick your finger in each of the different feedhorn tubes going down to the LNBs for 99, 101, and 103.


but what if the finger gets stuck?


----------



## Bosox07

jefbal99 said:


> Can any of these people with 9323 hit guide and then left arrow to the test channel name for any information?


When you open the guide when tuned to channel 9323 it is not listed.


----------



## houskamp

cartrivision said:


> If you pop the plastic cover off the center LNB feedhorn on the slimline, you could stick your finger in each of the different feedhorn tubes going down to the LNBs for 99, 101, and 103.


chineese finger trap? :lol:


----------



## cajunbug

cartrivision said:


> If you pop the plastic cover off the center LNB feedhorn on the slimline, you could stick your finger in each of the different feedhorn tubes going down to the LNBs for 99, 101, and 103.


It took over 5,600 post but finally.......we have gotten past first base and we are gettin' some action!!! :grin:


----------



## Sixto

cartrivision said:


> If you pop the plastic cover off the center LNB feedhorn on the slimline, you could stick your finger in each of the different feedhorn tubes going down to the LNBs for 99, 101, and 103.


Wish I was closer to the dish ... we need to find a volunteer ... 

Block 99, 110, and 119 ... and see what HD comes through.


----------



## Doug Brott

krock918316 said:


> I know it has been there for a while (I've always blocked the 70's channels from the guide), but the mods are hinting at something


who us? :sure:


----------



## PaulieORF

Storms in the area and I live in a condo, I don't think I'm climbin' onto the roof anytime soon. Plus, I don't know who else may have stuck their finger in those holes, so I'll play it safe!


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Wish I was closer to the dish ... we need to find a volunteer ...


We need to find a volunteer who:

a) knows what they're doing.

b) lives in this select area which is blacked out from ESPN tonight.


----------



## syphix

Doug Brott said:


> who us? :sure:


Don't fall for it, krock!! The first word in his title is "GOOFY"!!


----------



## PaulieORF

I am going to leave my HR21 tuned to 9323 tonight and see what happens, if anything. I'll watch TV in my bedroom on my H21 for now.


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> We need to find a volunteer who:
> 
> a) knows what they're doing.
> 
> b) lives in this select area which is blacked out from ESPN tonight.


Both a and b disqualify me...:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

curt8403 said:


> but what if the finger gets stuck?





houskamp said:


> chineese finger trap? :lol:


oh brother .. :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> We need to find a volunteer who:
> 
> a) knows what they're doing.
> 
> b) lives in this select area which is blacked out from ESPN tonight.


I qualify for (a) and even better, my AT-9 is mounted only about five feet off the ground on the side of my house, right into the brick, shielded from the worst winds by my fence. I chose the location so it would be easy to reach to peak or replace anything.

Too bad I don't qualify for (b).


----------



## krock918316

Doug Brott said:


> who us? :sure:


Yeah you - and your Packer fan buddy that visited D11 before her long trip.....


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> I qualify for (a)...blah, blah, blah...


Okay...I got it: LameLefty, drive to PaulieORF's house and help us figure this out.


----------



## bhelton71

ncxcstud said:


> on 99(c) i've got signals on
> i've got consistent signals on 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,12,13,14 (all between 88-94)
> 
> 1,7, and 11 randomly switch from 0 to 90s


I am seeing something like that on my HR20 also - mainly just on TP1 though - it will every other refresh drop to 0. But the signal meter stays level on 91. Sampling rate ?


----------



## uncrules

Something about this channel being on a spotbeam at 99(b) has me confused. If this channel is really on a spot beam at 99(b) that would mean it is coming from Spaceway-2. Also, we don't need BBCs to get channels from the Spaceway birds. But yet when Paulie removed his BBCs the channel went away. So since we know that D10 is at 103 it can't be a spotbeam from there. As far as I know only D10 and D11 require the BBC. So it has to be from D11 whether it is a spotbeam or conus channel.

Am I missing something?


----------



## bhelton71

krock918316 said:


> Yeah you - and your Packer fan buddy that visited D11 before her long trip.....


Did they take a Packer issued cell phone  ?

I should clarify why thats funny : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...-want-to-invest-in-his-own-cell?urn=nfl,95401


----------



## dcowboy7

bhelton71 said:


> Did they take a Packer issued cell phone  ?
> 
> I should clarify why thats funny : http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...-want-to-invest-in-his-own-cell?urn=nfl,95401


if the packers didnt register the phone its a salary cap violation on them....really.


----------



## uncrules

bhelton71 said:


> Did they take a Packer issued cell phone  ?


!rolling


----------



## DodgerKing

uncrules said:


> Something about this channel being on a spotbeam at 99(b) has me confused. If this channel is really on a spot beam at 99(b) that would mean it is coming from Spaceway-2. Also, we don't need BBCs to get channels from the Spaceway birds. But yet when Paulie removed his BBCs the channel went away. So since we know that D10 is at 103 it can't be a spotbeam from there. As far as I know only D10 and D11 require the BBC. So it has to be from D11 whether it is a spotbeam or conus channel.
> 
> Am I missing something?


As was discussed in another thread/site this could be mpeg4 testing of ESPN on D10. It is not necessarily on D11.


----------



## syphix

DodgerKing said:


> It could be mpeg4 testing of ESPN from D10 as well.
> 
> Other posters at another site explained this possibility.


True, but they could've tested an MPEG4 version of ESPN on D10 _anytime_...why now? And why didn't it get noticed until tonight??


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> True, but they could've tested an MPEG4 version of ESPN on D10 _anytime_...why now? And why didn't it get noticed until tonight??


If smith did see it three days ago it could have been there even longer??? Also, they may use D10 for some of the mpeg2 conversion channels once D11 becomes active.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> We need to find a volunteer who:
> 
> a) knows what they're doing.
> 
> b) lives in this select area which is blacked out from ESPN tonight.


I got a) and b) covered.

Just missing c)!

c) a dish that's not on the roof 3 story's up in the dark!


----------



## uncrules

DodgerKing said:


> As was discussed in another thread/site this could be mpeg4 testing of ESPN on D10. It is not necessarily on D11.


 But P Smith said that this channel is coming from 99. D10 is at 103 so it can't be from D10 unless 9323 no longer is coming from 99.


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> True, but they could've tested an MPEG4 version of ESPN on D10 _anytime_...why now?


Because they didn't need to til now?



syphix said:


> And why didn't it get noticed until tonight??


Nobody got blacked out until tonight?

BTW, I don't believe this is from D10... as I don't see what the point would be of testing a MPEG4 channel from D10 when they could be testing it from D11... which is what they should be doing.

~Alan


----------



## DodgerKing

uncrules said:


> But P Smith said that this channel is coming from 99. D10 is at 103 so it can't be from D10 unless 9323 no longer is coming from 99.


It can't come from 99 if the signal disappears once the bbc's are removed, correct?

Smith could be wrong. He was wrong about the transponder readings calling them interference.


----------



## PaulieORF

The thunderstorm that just rolled in may have cleared this up a bit, maybe.

In my bedroom I had NESN HD on (on 103c) while I had 9323 on in the living room. I lost NESN HD in my bedroom so I verified that I had all TPs from 103c down between 0 and 20, but 9323 was still working and 99c showed signal in the 60s and 70s. I lost signal on 9323 about 5 minutes later. And sure enough 99c was donw to pretty much nothing at that time. For the record 101, 110, and 119 are all still working.


----------



## Doug Brott

syphix said:


> Don't fall for it, krock!! The first word in his title is "GOOFY"!!





krock918316 said:


> Yeah you - and your Packer fan buddy that visited D11 before her long trip.....



View attachment 14677


----------



## syphix

DodgerKing said:


> It can't come from 99 if the signal disappears once the bbc's are removed, correct?


That's proof that it IS from 99/103.

EDIT: er....I read your post a different way... [Ed McMahon] You are correct, sir! [/Ed McMahon]


----------



## DodgerKing

Alan Gordon said:


> Because they didn't need to til now?
> 
> Nobody got blacked out until tonight?
> 
> BTW, I don't believe this is from D10... as I don't see what the point would be of testing a MPEG4 channel from D10 when they could be testing it from D11... which is what they should be doing.
> 
> ~Alan


Considering the signal goes away when the bbc's are removed and what you stated, it is only logical (inductive of course) to come up with a conjecture stating it must be D11?

Heck, I am even more confused now...


----------



## P Smith

Sixto said:


> Was like that 3 days ago. How about now?
> 
> What exactly is "net#11"?


On H20 it was before: net#10 become 99(a) later, #11 - 99(b).


----------



## LameLefty

DodgerKing said:


> It can't come from 99 if the signal disappears once the bbc's are removed, correct?
> 
> Smith could be wrong. He was wrong about the transponder readings calling them interference.


It could be a Ka-hi transponder from Spaceway 2 but that's REALLY unlikely, for a lot of reasons.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> On H20 it was before: net#10 become 99(a) later, #11 - 99(b).


as in older rcvrs refer to the different satellite signals as networks rather than satellites or LNB signals///


----------



## PaulieORF

P Smith said:


> On H20 it was before: net#10 become 99(a) later, #11 - 99(b).


I still haven't heard how you got to the channel....


----------



## syphix

Thinking about this logically (and not "optimistically"):

a) They are testing transponder levels on D11. _(we know this, we've seen this)_

b) ESPN-HD shows up, hidden, on a high numbered channel, only accessible by "accident". _(we know this, some have seen this)_

c) ESPN-HD is one of the legacy MPEG2-HD's that is slated to be moved to either D10 or D11 in MPEG4...soon. _(we know this, it's been stated by DirecTV that MPEG2 HD's are beging removed soon)_

d) The channel disappears if the BBC's are removed (proving either D10 or D11, or at least Ka-lo). _(we know this, PaulieORF's seen this)_

CONCLUSION: They are testing ESPN-HD on D10 or D11 in MPEG4. That's as close to a true "conclusion" as you can come. We can't say for sure D11 unless we can block 103...


----------



## P Smith

I didn't say I saw the channel(s), it was just data from APG stream.


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> Thinking about this logically (and not "optimistically"):
> 
> a) They are testing transponder levels on D11. _(we know this, we've seen this)_
> 
> b) ESPN-HD shows up, hidden, on a high numbered channel, only accessible by "accident". _(we know this, some have seen this)_
> 
> c) ESPN-HD is one of the legacy MPEG2-HD's that is slated to be moved to either D10 or D11 in MPEG4...soon. _(we know this, it's been stated by DirecTV that MPEG2 HD's are beging removed soon)_
> 
> d) The channel disappears if the BBC's are removed (proving either D10 or D11). _(we know this, PaulieORF's seen this)_
> 
> CONCLUSION: They are testing ESPN-HD on D10 or D11 in MPEG4. That's as close to a true "conclusion" as you can come. We can't say for sure D11 unless we can block 103...


do you know what an A3 channel is?


----------



## syphix

curt8403 said:


> do you know what an A3 channel is?


No. Please tell me.


----------



## PaulieORF

P Smith said:


> I didn't say I saw the channel(s), it was just data from APG stream.


You did say "I saw it three days ago at least", so I thought you meant you saw the channel.

Anyway, how are you able to see this stream of data, and what were the other channels you saw there? Also, any idea why they would be putting a simulcast of ESPN HD and other channels on spotbeams? I thought there was pretty much no room left for HD locals on the current satellites.


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> I didn't say I saw the channel(s), it was just data from APG stream.


How do you know what it was and what they were using it for? How do you know this channel isn't being used for something different now? Can you view the current data from the APG stream?


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> do you know what an A3 channel is?


I've heard the term but never a good explanation . . . do tell.


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> No. Please tell me.


A3 channels (a large number, exact count varies from day to day) are engineering channels that carry the same program as another channel (such as ESPN) they are normally not available in the guide at all, but sometimes will pop up for some unknown reason. the channel numbers for them are usually in the 9000 series. Think channel reserved for the team dugouts or pit crews in the case of nascar. so, maybe it is not a test of MPEG 4 ESPN


----------



## evan_s

syphix said:


> Thinking about this logically (and not "optimistically"):
> 
> a) They are testing transponder levels on D11. _(we know this, we've seen this)_
> 
> b) ESPN-HD shows up, hidden, on a high numbered channel, only accessible by "accident". _(we know this, some have seen this)_
> 
> c) ESPN-HD is one of the legacy MPEG2-HD's that is slated to be moved to either D10 or D11 in MPEG4...soon. _(we know this, it's been stated by DirecTV that MPEG2 HD's are beging removed soon)_
> 
> d) The channel disappears if the BBC's are removed (proving either D10 or D11, or at least Ka-hi). _(we know this, PaulieORF's seen this)_
> 
> CONCLUSION: They are testing ESPN-HD on D10 or D11 in MPEG4. That's as close to a true "conclusion" as you can come. We can't say for sure D11 unless we can block 103...


D10 and D11 are actually all Ka-lo in their down links and the Ka-Lo in the stack plan is the one that needs the BBC. The BBC moves the Ka-Lo signal from the 250-750 range (right on top of OTA) to the Ka-Hi range in the stack at 1650-2150.


----------



## PaulieORF

I can almost guarantee that what's on 9323 is not coming from 103, because it came back on 5 minutes before any channels on 103.


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> I've heard the term but never a good explanation . . . do tell.


Actually all A3 things are coming from SW-1/2 and D10/D11. Opposite to legacy [101/110/119/72.5/95] stuff.


----------



## P Smith

PaulieORF said:


> You did say "I saw it three days ago at least", so I thought you meant you saw the channel.
> 
> Anyway, how are you able to see this stream of data, and what were the other channels you saw there? Also, any idea why they would be putting a simulcast of ESPN HD and other channels on spotbeams? I thought there was pretty much no room left for HD locals on the current satellites.


I mean I saw that numbers in APG, not video/audio itself.


----------



## idigg

Can I ask a question? How do you guys know so much about this stuff? Engineers for Boeing?


----------



## P Smith

For competitors .


----------



## Sixto

PaulieORF said:


> I can almost guarantee that what's on 9323 is not coming from 103, because it came back on 5 minutes before any channels on 103.


The storm solved our sticking the finger in the LNB problem!


----------



## syphix

evan_s said:


> D10 and D11 are actually all Ka-lo in their down links and the Ka-Lo in the stack plan is the one that needs the BBC. The BBC moves the Ka-Lo signal from the 250-750 range (right on top of OTA) to the Ka-Hi range in the stack at 1650-2150.


Okay...strike that...reverse it.


----------



## PaulieORF

Sixto said:


> The storm solved our sticking the finger in the LNB problem!


The finger of God was helpful here.


----------



## curt8403

P Smith said:


> Actually all A3 things are coming from SW-1/2 and D10/D11. Opposite to legacy [101/110/119/72.5/95] stuff.


negative. perhaps for HD stuff, but I have gotten some SD A3 stuff as well (a few times) and I have only a 3 lnb dish at this time


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> For competitors .


We know you are a Dish guy and we also know you are very knowledgeable. I am not accusing you of intentionally trying to mislead us (for all I know you are an honest person), but you have been wrong about D11 before. Perhaps you are reading things wrong? How do you know this is not a test from D10 or D11?


----------



## DodgerKing

I have a question: has there been anymore TLEs lately?


----------



## curt8403

DodgerKing said:


> I have a question: has there been anymore TLEs lately?


most likely no. I think D* is busy playing with transponders and have not tried to adjust the orbit at all yet.


----------



## LameLefty

DodgerKing said:


> I have a question: has there been anymore TLEs lately?


Nope, not yet.


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> most likely no. I think D* is busy playing with transponders and have not tried to adjust the orbit at all yet.


Actually I'm pretty sure different teams are at work. Orbits are tweaked several times a day from what I read on Boeing's site about XIPS thrusters.

The thing is, the orbit tweaks are small enough to not trigger another TLE.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

PaulieORF - don't switch off that channel! There's a posting about how they might have closed the "GameSearch loophole"!
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1693952&postcount=14

Hello, DirecTV!!  We know you're reading this! :up:


----------



## PaulieORF

syphix said:


> PaulieORF - don't switch off that channel! There's a posting about how they might have closed the "GameSearch loophole"!
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1693952&postcount=14
> 
> Hello, DirecTV!!  We know you're reading this! :up:


Don't worry, I'm leaving it on.


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually I'm pretty sure different teams are at work. Orbits are tweaked several times a day from what I read on Boeing's site about XIPS thrusters.
> 
> The thing is, the orbit tweaks are small enough to not trigger another TLE.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


At least, not until: (a) the magnitude of the combined changes completely invalidates the last TLE; and/or (b) the resultant orbit is stable enough (e.g., enough time between tweaks) to result in a valid set of observations sufficient to generate a new element set.


----------



## JayPSU

As someone who was with Dish Network when D10 went up, it's REALLY exciting to be part of directv with D11 starting to fire up!


----------



## P Smith

DodgerKing said:


> We know you are a Dish guy and we also know you are very knowledgeable. I am not accusing you of intentionally trying to mislead us (for all I know you are an honest person), but you have been wrong about D11 before. Perhaps you are reading things wrong? How do you know this is not a test from D10 or D11?


That was my spectrum analyzer.


----------



## Drew2k

I'm just wondering if Doug enjoyed his lunch (hoping he didn't spit it out), and if Tom is still watching DIRECTV (of course!)....

Somewhere in there are some hints ...

If only my brain was still working at this late hour, I'd attempt to delve deeper, but alas, I'm fried!


----------



## PaulieORF

There are some more big storms to come through here tonight, I hope they don't knock out my power and lose my 9323! (I'm such a loser)


----------



## P Smith

Umm, I should add some tidbits.
Between 1pm and 8pm yesterday, some 0f 9xxx 'channels' appear on new net#10 (D11). I didn't check my logs last two days.
So, if you need full set of those channels let me know.


----------



## PaulieORF

P Smith said:


> Umm, I should add some tidbits.
> Between 1pm and 8pm yesterday, some 0f 9xxx 'channels' appear on new net#10 (D11). I didn't check my logs last two days.
> So, if you need full set of those channels let me know.


I'm assuming you can't tell what's actually on the cahnnels, just that they are there, right?


----------



## syphix

P Smith said:


> Umm, I should add some tidbits.
> Between 1pm and 8pm yesterday, some 0f 9xxx 'channels' appear on new net#10 (D11). I didn't check my logs last two days.
> So, if you need full set of those channels let me know.


Yep, I need 'em. 

Explain to a layman what "net #10" is. Why is it called "net #10"? And, are those 'channels' still there, or did they disappear?

BTW, how are you seeing the APG, especially for these "hidden" channels?


----------



## Drew2k

syphix said:


> Yep, I need 'em.
> 
> Explain to a layman what "net #10" is. Why is it called "net #10"? And, are those 'channels' still there, or did they disappear?


Here's the earlier explanation:



P Smith said:


> On H20 it was before: net#10 become 99(a) later, #11 - 99(b).


Apparently on older receivers, they were denoted differently from how we see the sats now ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Drew2k said:


> I'm just wondering if Doug enjoyed his lunch (hoping he didn't spit it out), and if Tom is still watching DIRECTV (of course!)....
> 
> Somewhere in there are some hints ...
> 
> If only my brain was still working at this late hour, I'd attempt to delve deeper, but alas, I'm fried!


Lunch was good, Thank You!


----------



## jefbal99

PaulieORF said:


> There are some more big storms to come through here tonight, I hope they don't knock out my power and lose my 9323! (I'm such a loser)


You need a UPS


----------



## PaulieORF

jefbal99 said:


> You need a UPS


I've got one, but it's too late because the game is over and 206 is no longe blacked out, so no more game search.


----------



## syphix

Maybe it wasn't D10/D11...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1694032&postcount=16


----------



## Jeremy W

syphix said:


> Maybe it wasn't D10/D11...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1694032&postcount=16


The fact that the channel went away when the BBCs were removed PROVES that it was from D10 or D11. I have heard about activity like this in the past, but just because it's happened before doesn't mean that this is exactly the same. The test channels they made public for D10 were up in the 9xxx range, too.


----------



## PaulieORF

Jeremy W said:


> The fact that the channel went away when the BBCs were removed PROVES that it was from D10 or D11. I have heard about activity like this in the past, but just because it's happened before doesn't mean that this is exactly the same. The test channels they made public for D10 were up in the 9xxx range, too.


Agreed. I saw first hand that I was unable to tune to the channel without a BBC.

We'll see what happens, or if anyone who knows for sure what' going on here can shed some light on it, or of course if we get new channels in la week!


----------



## syphix

Jeremy W said:


> The fact that the channel went away when the BBCs were removed PROVES that it was from D10 or D11. I have heard about activity like this in the past, but just because it's happened before doesn't mean that this is exactly the same. The test channels they made public for D10 were up in the 9xxx range, too.


Ahh...true...whoops...forgot the BBC...

So, we're back to either D10 or D11...so, they've been testing ESPN-HD in MPEG4 on D10, at least -- did they move testing to D11?


----------



## PaulieORF

I really wish DirecTV had some sort of diagnostic screen for the current channel, like most digital cable boxes have, which would tell you what satellite and TP you are currently on, like digital cable does with the current frequency.


----------



## Jeremy W

PaulieORF said:


> I really wish DirecTV had some sort of diagnostic screen for the current channel, like most digital cable boxes have, which would tell you what satellite and TP you are currently on, like digital cable does with the current frequency.


The older receivers could tell you, but DirecTV chose not to provide that functionality in their self-branded receivers.


----------



## Doug Brott

PaulieORF said:


> I really wish DirecTV had some sort of diagnostic screen for the current channel, like most digital cable boxes have, which would tell you what satellite and TP you are currently on, like digital cable does with the current frequency.


But then you would be an Engineer ..


----------



## Jeremy W

syphix said:


> so, they've been testing ESPN-HD in MPEG4 on D10, at least


How do you know this?


----------



## PaulieORF

I'm off to bed, I'll see what's on my TV in the morning and if it's anything interesting I'll let you know. I guess interesting woudl be something other than ESPN HD, like a dark screen even. Oh well we'll see. Good night.


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> But then you would be an Engineer ..


So there's a hidden engineering mode we can enable on our boxes with a Keyword search?


----------



## PaulieORF

Doug Brott said:


> But then you would be an Engineer ..


Good piont, I'll stay away from diganostic screens then!


----------



## P Smith

PaulieORF said:


> I'm assuming you can't tell what's actually on the cahnnels, just that they are there, right?


Correct.

So, the list of channels assigned to D11:
9320 9315 9323 9325 9333 9338 9339 9342 9344 9347 9348 9349 9350 9353 9354 9357 9358 9359 9360 9366 9369 9374 9376 9314 9315 9318 9319


----------



## Doug Brott

Jeremy W said:


> So there's a hidden engineering mode we can enable on our boxes with a Keyword search?


Nothing that I know about ..


----------



## jefbal99

P Smith said:


> Correct.
> 
> So, the list of channels assigned to D11:
> 9320 9315 9323 9325 9333 9338 9339 9342 9344 9347 9348 9349 9350 9353 9354 9357 9358 9359 9360 9366 9369 9374 9376 9314 9315 9318 9319


Was this somehow gathered from your log file?


----------



## Jeremy W

Doug Brott said:


> Nothing that I know about ..


Darn, your wording was kind of fishy, I was just taking a shot in the dark at a hidden deeper meaning.


----------



## syphix

Jeremy W said:


> How do you know this?


Somebody posted in the other thread that they've had what happened to PaulieORF happen to them several times...pushing them to a ESPN-HD channel in the 9000's -- which is the testing range for channels. Since D11 wasn't "parked" or transponders turned on until very recently, I'm only guessing he was viewing a test of ESPN-HD//MPEG4 on D10.


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Correct.
> 
> So, the list of channels assigned to D11:
> 9320 9315 9323 9325 9333 9338 9339 9342 9344 9347 9348 9349 9350 9353 9354 9357 9358 9359 9360 9366 9369 9374 9376 9314 9315 9318 9319


27 channels!

And yep, no new TLE.


----------



## P Smith

To jefbal99.

Correct.

So, if assume those 27 channels are full of video, then 27/14 = 2 channels per transponder. Should be high quality video if the bandwidth ~20 Mbps for each.


----------



## syphix

P Smith said:


> Correct.
> So, if assume those 27 channels are full of video, then 27/14 = 2 channels per transponder. Should be high quality video if the bandwidth ~20 Mbps for each.


1080p!!


----------



## bleggett29

Sixto said:


> 27 channels!
> 
> And yep, no new TLE.


26 channels----9315 is listed twice


----------



## ziltomil

P Smith said:


> Correct.
> 
> So, the list of channels assigned to D11:
> 9320 9315 *9323 *9325 9333 9338 9339 9342 9344 9347 9348 9349 9350 9353 9354 9357 9358 9359 9360 9366 9369 9374 9376 9314 9315 9318 9319


But that's the channel you said was not from D11... your posts have been confused lately.


----------



## P Smith

ziltomil said:


> But that's the channel you said was not from D11... your posts have been confused lately.


You probably skimming the thread - if you will read all my posts alone you'll find what happened last days in APG stream.
SOrry, but you confused by your self.


----------



## 66stang351

ziltomil said:


> But that's the channel you said was not from D11... your posts have been confused lately.


He said when it first appeared in his data stream it was not on D11. He checked again recently and it has changed.


----------



## syphix

1. HBO-HD
2. SHO-HD
3. ESPN-HD
4. ESPN2-HD
5. HDNet
6. HDNet Movies
7. Universal HD
8. TNT-HD
9. HD Theater
10. PPVHD Events (there's at least one still at MPEG2...)

That leaves 16 *NEW* channels...

Speculate away!


----------



## bleggett29

syphix said:


> 1. HBO-HD
> 2. SHO-HD
> 3. ESPN-HD
> 4. ESPN2-HD
> 5. HDNet
> 6. HDNet Movies
> 7. Universal HD
> 8. TNT-HD
> 9. HD Theater
> 10. PPVHD Events (there's at least one still at MPEG2...)
> 
> That leaves 16 *NEW* channels...
> 
> Speculate away!


getting confused which thread you're in----just saw this post in the "other" thread for a second or two before being deleted.
on topic---a few more HBO's, SHO's and Max's


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> 1. HBO-HD
> 2. SHO-HD
> 3. ESPN-HD
> 4. ESPN2-HD
> 5. HDNet
> 6. HDNet Movies
> 7. Universal HD
> 8. TNT-HD
> 9. HD Theater
> 10. PPVHD Events (there's at least one still at MPEG2...)
> 
> That leaves 16 *NEW* channels...
> 
> Speculate away!


They'll just move the 9 legacy. 17 new!


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> Umm, I should add some tidbits.
> Between 1pm and 8pm yesterday, some 0f 9xxx 'channels' appear on new net#10 (D11). I didn't check my logs last two days.
> So, if you need full set of those channels let me know.


I knew you were holding something back....:grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> 1080p!!


Ah...nope.


----------



## ziltomil

Yeah, it seems they are testing all the MPEG2 HD channels on D11, and the only reason some users here was able to see one of them was that it was broadcasting a sports game allowing a loophole to be used.


----------



## syphix

bleggett29 said:


> getting confused which thread you're in----just saw this post in the "other" thread for a second or two before being deleted.


Shhh!!! 



Tom Robertson said:


> Ah...nope.


I knew...hence the "".

It'd be a waste, any way: the average view cannot discern the difference between a well encoded 1080i/720p and 1080p.


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> 1. HBO-HD
> 2. SHO-HD
> 3. ESPN-HD
> 4. ESPN2-HD
> 5. HDNet
> 6. HDNet Movies
> 7. Universal HD
> 8. TNT-HD
> 9. HD Theater
> 10. PPVHD Events (there's at least one still at MPEG2...)
> 
> That leaves 16 *NEW* channels...
> 
> Speculate away!


Somebody forgot about CBS-HD East, NBC-HD East, ABC-HD, FOX-HD East! 

That should still leave plenty of room for ABC Family-HD, AMC-HD, Hallmark Movie Channel HD, CW-HD, etc...

~Alan


----------



## syphix

Alan Gordon said:


> Somebody forgot about CBS-HD East, NBC-HD East, ABC-HD, FOX-HD East!


Whoops...thought those were already on D10...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jeremy W said:


> Doug Brott said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing that I know about ..
> 
> 
> 
> Darn, your wording was kind of fishy, I was just taking a shot in the dark at a hidden deeper meaning.
Click to expand...

Seems quite translucent to me ..


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> Whoops...thought those were already on D10...


Nope! They're still MPEG2 on the KU satellites.

The West Coast versions are MPEG4 on the KU satellites (after being transitioned off of D10 shortly before ESPNNews HD, Disney-HD, and Toon Disney) were added.

~Alan


----------



## jefbal99

Alan Gordon said:


> Somebody forgot about CBS-HD East, NBC-HD East, ABC-HD, FOX-HD East!
> 
> That should still leave plenty of room for ABC Family-HD, AMC-HD, Hallmark Movie Channel HD, CW-HD, etc...
> 
> ~Alan


And the West Coast feeds that are MPEG4 but on a KU Bird


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> To jefbal99.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> So, if assume those 27 channels are full of video, then 27/14 = 2 channels per transponder. Should be high quality video if the bandwidth ~20 Mbps for each.


I'm sure they're not letting the channels run wild with bandwidth, they're probably only using their normal allotted amount.


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> You probably skimming the thread - if you will read all my posts alone you'll find what happened last days in APG stream.
> SOrry, but you confused by your self.


Which means this particular game was from D11???


----------



## syphix

DodgerKing said:


> Which means this particular game was from D11???


Yes.  Go back and look at that screenshot: it's the first image of video off D11. 

SOON.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jefbal99 said:


> And the West Coast feeds that are MPEG4 but on a KU Bird


They had to leave them on the KU satellites for a while to allow MDU's time to upgrade to the new KA dishes. Unless that time has expired or is about to, I see no reason for them to duplicate them on D11.

~Alan


----------



## steveken

JayPSU said:


> I tried getting game finder by seeing the Phils game on SNY which should black me out since I live in Ohio. NOPE, it lets me go there so I couldn't initiate it. Same thing when I tried it on MLB which I don't sub to...it let me in, so no game search initiated. Weird.


I think it might be something up with MLB games tonight. I am watching the Cubs @ Arizona right now on 640 CSNCHD. I shouldn't be getting that game as I don't pay for anything but the Sports Pak. Same thing on 671 (Nats @ Giants) and 657 (Indians @ Angels)...I shouldn't be getting those either. I really think there is some kinda freeview open on the MLB games.


----------



## steveken

syphix said:


> There's a free preview of Extra Innings (the baseball package). You should get virtually every game being played....through tonight.


Theres my answer.


----------



## DodgerKing

steveken said:


> I think it might be something up with MLB games tonight. I am watching the Cubs @ Arizona right now on 640 CSNCHD. I shouldn't be getting that game as I don't pay for anything but the Sports Pak. Same thing on 671 (Nats @ Giants) and 657 (Indians @ Angels)...I shouldn't be getting those either. I really think there is some kinda freeview open on the MLB games.


Yes. This week is a free preview week for EI.


----------



## steveken

DodgerKing said:


> Yes. This week is a free preview week for EI.


Its nice they could tell us about it. I would have been watching non-stop baseball if I had known. And it ends tonight?


----------



## DodgerKing

steveken said:


> Its nice they could tell us about it. I would have been watching non-stop baseball if I had known. And it ends tonight?


I don't know when it ends. I have EI Superfan so I have been watching it all year anyway.


----------



## Oilfan

steveken said:


> Its nice they could tell us about it. I would have been watching non-stop baseball if I had known. And it ends tonight?


I have seen multiple ads etc. Nevermind the posts on this very board.


----------



## steveken

Oilfan said:


> I have seen multiple ads etc. Nevermind the posts on this very board.


LOL, you assume I watch ads!  I haven't watched a commercial (voluntarily anyway) in a VERY long time.  I purposefully time shift damn near everything.


----------



## DodgerKing

This thread is about D11, not EI...














Unless more EI games will be coming from D11.


----------



## Newshawk

DodgerKing said:


> Unless more EI games will be coming from D11.


Not really, but more HD PPV will be available while the games are on, once D11 goes live.


----------



## bruinfever

Anyone been able to get this channel at the moment?


----------



## DodgerKing

Newshawk said:


> Not really, but more HD PPV will be available while the games are on, once D11 goes live.


There is always next year. Who knows, maybe instead of 40 HD games a week, it may be 60?


----------



## BWELL316

So is July 30th looking like the "Big day"?


----------



## petergaryr

BWELL316 said:


> So is July 30th looking like the "Big day"?


Even if it isn't, I suspect there will be some people sitting in front to their TVs at 6 AM EDST saying, "I DO believe in D11, I DO believe in D11." I may be one of them.


----------



## paulman182

I'll be on vacation, 600 miles from my TV, on July 30th.

So of course that will be the date!


----------



## sacalait

Can someone explain the difference between 99(s) and 99(c). 

I finally checked one of my receivers yesterday and the (s) was lit up like a Christmas tree with 93-98 across the board while the 99(c) was only getting a range of 60-75.


----------



## syphix

99(s) is spotbeams. You should NOT get similar signal levels on all available transponders. Some you won't get signal at all (i.e., it's not aimed at you).

99(c) is the CONUS (national) beam. You SHOULD get similar signal levels on all available transponders.


----------



## feschiver

it will take some time to point the spots


----------



## PaulieORF

I turned on my HR21 this morning (still tuned to 9323) and it's still showing the simulcast of ESPN HD, not that really expected or expect anything special to happen, so I figure I'll go back to watching TV on the HR21 tonight, and change the channel. This feels like a one night stand; last night I was all excited about it, but this morning I"m just not all that excited about keeping it around!!!


----------



## sacalait

PaulieORF said:


> I turned on my HR21 this morning (still tuned to 9323) and it's still showing the simulcast of ESPN HD, not that really expected or expect anything special to happen, so I figure I'll go back to watching TV on the HR21 tonight, and change the channel. This feels like a one night stand; last night I was all excited about it, but this morning I"m just not all that excited about keeping it around!!!


At least cook it breakfast and give it cab fare.:lol:


----------



## purtman

steveken said:


> Its nice they could tell us about it. I would have been watching non-stop baseball if I had known. And it ends tonight?


It's been all over the place.


----------



## PaulieORF

sacalait said:


> At least cook it breakfast and give it cab fare.:lol:


I'm letting her spend the day, then kicking her out tonight


----------



## syphix

QUESTION: What's to stop Dish Network from launching their 17 new HD's early, and taking _some_ steam from D11's impending light up? Just contracts?


----------



## loudo

syphix said:


> QUESTION: What's to stop Dish Network from launching their 17 new HD's early, and taking _some_ steam from D11's impending light up? Just contracts?


Even if they did launch their 17 new HD channels before D11 gets fire up, it would only leave them with a total of 62 HD channels. Their web site shows 45 current ones offered, plus the 17 new ones would be 62. DirecTV web site advertises 95. DISH would still be lagging behind.


----------



## Sixto

loudo said:


> Even if they did launch their 17 new HD channels before D11 gets fire up, it would only leave them with a total of 62 HD channels. Their web site shows 45 current ones offered, plus the 17 new ones would be 62. DirecTV web site advertises 95. DISH would still be lagging behind.


It depends on the criteria used. DirecTV shows themselves at 95 and DISH at 81.

The criteria used for DirecTV is as follows: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> It depends on the criteria used. DirecTV shows themselves at 95 and DISH at 81.
> 
> The criteria used for DirecTV is as follows: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


I was using the amounts that each one uses on their web site HD information page.

EDIT: But as look the DISH page over correctly, I see they say over 80 channels on one page and on their DishHD Absolute package only show 45.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> It depends on the criteria used. DirecTV shows themselves at 95 and DISH at 81.
> 
> The criteria used for DirecTV is as follows: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


It is simple. Dish counts their part time game only RSNs and Direct does not. If they both used the same counting standards, Direct will still be in the lead. Overall HD channels being broadcast, including part time, full time, and sports package channels, Direct blows Dish out of the water.


----------



## jefbal99

loudo said:


> I was using the amounts that each one uses on their web site HD information page.
> 
> EDIT: But as look the DISH page over correctly, I see they say over 80 channels on one page and on their DishHD Absolute package only show 45.


I believe Dish is counting their part time HD PPVs and Part time RSNs (all of the Dish RSNs are gametime only)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

When I see a list of the actual DirecTV channels and count them up...I get a real number.

Both Dish and Comcast use "*fuzzy math*" to include part-time channels in their counts to bolster their real numbers.

We'll see updated numbers, once the new National HD channels are lit up (as well as LIL's).


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> Correct.
> 
> So, the list of channels assigned to D11:
> 9320 9315 9323 9325 9333 9338 9339 9342 9344 9347 9348 9349 9350 9353 9354 9357 9358 9359 9360 9366 9369 9374 9376 9314 9315 9318 9319


I want to commend you for your honest integrity.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Looks like they are planning to have 27 channel slots for activation at first, based on P Smith's channel inventory.

Some of those will be moved channels (the MPEG2 versions of ESPN, ESPN2, etc.), with the rest perhaps brand new HD channels...and maybe a couple on hold for a short period.

In any case....I anticipate a "big bang" of new channels, probably in tiered deployment over several weeks (blocks of new ones at a time).

It will also be interesting to see if any of the new HD channels fall into the "HD Expansion Pack" grouping.

There....that should be enough new topics on D11 to keep things going for a bit... :lol:


----------



## rey_1178

At the end Direct will blow Dish out of the water again.


----------



## grump

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It will also be interesting to see if any of the new HD channels fall into the "HD Expansion Pack" grouping.


As long as they don't come out with a "HD Expansion Pack Expansion Pack", I'm happy.

:grin:


----------



## katzeye

rey_1178 said:


> At the end Direct will blow Dish out of the water again.


Yeah, of course they will. I can't seem to understand everyone's obsession with this topic. Dish already proved that they are unscrupulous when it comes to this topic. A few months back when they added a bunch of channels and sent out the press release proclaiming their superior number of channels. Only to shut off the VOOM channels a few hours later. They knew exactly what they were doing and they know that the press release was dishonest. So who really cares if they try something dishonest, we all know what is really going on. 
That said it would be cool if D* turned on D11 on Wednesday, before Dish's August 1st announcement.


----------



## Fatboy72

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It will also be interesting to see if any of the new HD channels fall into the "HD Expansion Pack" grouping.


As long as I don't have to pay extra for it, I'm fine with that. :lol:


----------



## DodgerKing

Fatboy72 said:


> As long as I don't have to pay extra for it, I'm fine with that. :lol:


That is the one thing that worries me about all of these new HD channels. I would not be surprised if Direct makes another HD tier and we have to end up paying another $5 to watch all of the HD or some of the channels we are currently watching.


----------



## jimmyv2000

i'm seeing strengths on all 14 tps NOW but theyre low!! 99a on both my h-20s


----------



## RAD

A follow on to that question, if D* adds the HD versions of HBO/Cineman channels but not the SD version would you need to pay the HD Extra package charge to get them along with the HBO or Cinemax package charge?


----------



## Matt9876

This thread is done !! 

Lock it and put it in the archives.

Thanks to all !!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DodgerKing said:


> That is the one thing that worries me about all of these new HD channels. I would not be surprised if Direct makes another HD tier and we have to end up paying another $5 to watch all of the HD or some of the channels we are currently watching.


Doubt that will happen..they have their regular HD channels and their "Expansion Pack"...there's no need or logic in going beyond that. I'd be shocked to see anything beyond that.


----------



## Doug Brott

katzeye said:


> Yeah, of course they will. I can't seem to understand everyone's obsession with this topic. Dish already proved that they are unscrupulous when it comes to this topic. A few months back when they added a bunch of channels and sent out the press release proclaiming their superior number of channels. Only to shut off the VOOM channels a few hours later. They knew exactly what they were doing and they know that the press release was dishonest. So who really cares if they try something dishonest, we all know what is really going on.
> That said it would be cool if D* turned on D11 on Wednesday, before Dish's August 1st announcement.


You know, when you've got more, you just don't have to talk about it that much .. :grin:


----------



## Elephanthead

Just don't buy the up charge. If no one buys it, they are not going to bring the satellite back down, they will lower the price. Of course you probably can't live without your fix of strechovision and non HD hd channels. Anyway more channels with no good content yes!


----------



## Fatboy72

DodgerKing said:


> That is the one thing that worries me about all of these new HD channels. I would not be surprised if Direct makes another HD tier and we have to end up paying another $5 to watch all of the HD or some of the channels we are currently watching.


I hear ya! I cant afford to give them any more money. :nono:


----------



## rey_1178

katzeye said:


> Yeah, of course they will. I can't seem to understand everyone's obsession with this topic. Dish already proved that they are unscrupulous when it comes to this topic. A few months back when they added a bunch of channels and sent out the press release proclaiming their superior number of channels. Only to shut off the VOOM channels a few hours later. They knew exactly what they were doing and they know that the press release was dishonest. So who really cares if they try something dishonest, we all know what is really going on.
> That said it would be cool if D* turned on D11 on Wednesday, before Dish's August 1st announcement.


I would love to see that! :grin:


----------



## rey_1178

this thread is done when D11 lights up everything and not a moment earlier baby! let's keep it going


----------



## jimmyv2000

is testing considered lit?


----------



## BWELL316

petergaryr said:


> Even if it isn't, I suspect there will be some people sitting in front to their TVs at 6 AM EDST saying, "I DO believe in D11, I DO believe in D11." I may be one of them.


Is wearing ruby slippers required for that? Because if it is...oh wait, never mind....:sure:


----------



## VARTV

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Looks like they are planning to have 27 channel slots for activation at first, based on P Smith's channel inventory.
> 
> :lol:


How many HD channels is DirecTV doing per transponder in mpeg4? 4??, 5??


----------



## dddeeds

Well the guide now shows that BTN 220 HD is moving to Ch# 610 @ 6AM Wed. July 30th...so definately something will be going on then I'd assume.


----------



## Matt9876

Vartv:

If they stick to 4 HD channels per transponder it gives them Very high quality 56 channels.  

If it goes to 5 HD channels per transponder you will get 70 good HD channels.


----------



## CKNAV

VARTV said:


> How many HD channels is DirecTV doing per transponder in mpeg4? 4??, 5??


5 channels per tp.


----------



## jefbal99

dddeeds said:


> Well the guide now shows that BTN 220 HD is moving to Ch# 610 @ 6AM Wed. July 30th...so definately something will be going on then I'd assume.


That is part of the planned Sports/RSN channel reorg occurring in the 600 channel block.


----------



## Sixto

dddeeds said:


> Well the guide now shows that BTN 220 HD is moving to Ch# 610 @ 6AM Wed. July 30th...so definately something will be going on then I'd assume.


That's been the schedule for a while: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4670018


----------



## jefbal99

Matt9876 said:


> If they stick to 4 HD channels per transponder it gives them Very high quality 56 channels.
> 
> If it goes to 5 HD channels per transponder you will get 70 good HD channels.


5 is what is currently being speculated for D10


----------



## merchione

Fatboy72 said:


> As long as I don't have to pay extra for it, I'm fine with that. :lol:


yeah no joke


----------



## Curtis0620

D10 = 5x16 = 80
D11 = 5x14 = 70
Total = 150


----------



## Sixto

Curtis0620 said:


> D10 = 5x16 = 80
> D11 = 5x14 = 70
> Total = 150


And you also have 35+ part-time RSN's that are balanced in there as well. Lots of channel balancing going on.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> And you also have 35+ part-time RSN's that are balanced in there as well. Lots of channel balancing going on.


Sold! 

The capacity will be there for sure.


----------



## syphix

Just wait 'til D12 goes up...ANOTHER 50+ HD channels. 

God, I love these HD wars with cable/Dish...in the end, we (the consumer) win!

Here's to never watching an SD channel again!! Hip-hip!!


----------



## jefbal99

Sixto said:


> And you also have 35+ part-time RSN's that are balanced in there as well. Lots of channel balancing going on.


and the HD PPVs that share the space with the game time only RSNs


----------



## nn8l

dddeeds said:


> Well the guide now shows that BTN 220 HD is moving to Ch# 610 @ 6AM Wed. July 30th...so definately something will be going on then I'd assume.


FSN Detroit is moving then also.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

syphix said:


> Here's to never watching an SD channel again!! Hip-hip!!


:hurah:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> Just wait 'til D12 goes up...ANOTHER 50+ HD channels.
> 
> God, I love these HD wars with cable/Dish...in the end, we (the consumer) win!
> 
> Here's to never watching an SD channel again!! Hip-hip!!


The last I looked...there were about 37-40 more HD channels as new HD channel candidates at this time...assuming DirecTV has carriage Agreements in place for all of them....so it not only be interesting to see what new ones we will actually get soon on D11, but also...next year on D12.

Hopefully by then...some of these remaining / slacker content providers will learn about digital television.


----------



## Steve Robertson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The last I looked...there were about 37-40 more HD channels as new HD channel candidates at this time...assuming DirecTV has carriage Agreements in place for all of them....so it not only be interesting to see what new ones we will actually get soon on D11, but also...next year on D12.
> 
> Hopefully by then...some of these content providers will learn about digital television.


More shopping channels:hurah:


----------



## I WANT MORE

syphix said:


> Just wait 'til D12 goes up...ANOTHER 50+ HD channels.
> 
> God, I love these HD wars with cable/Dish...in the end, we (the consumer) win!
> 
> Here's to never watching an SD channel again!! Hip-hip!!


I don't know how to spell HORAH, HOORAY or HORAY or whatever it is.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve Robertson said:


> More shopping channels:hurah:


<*in the tone of Mr. Bill*>

Oh Nooooooooooooo............. :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :lol:


----------



## MIAMI1683

Steve Robertson said:


> More shopping channels:hurah:


 How about more Cinemax channels, and Encore HD.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MIAMI1683 said:


> How about more Cinemax channels, and Encore HD.


There are a number of rumored Premium Channel additions out there on the list...rumors right now..

Anyone wanna bet if this thread hits 6000 posts first or a new HD National Channel appears first?


----------



## Sixto

Smiddy has a thread for all of the future HD discussion: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095


----------



## merchione

IFC HD would be nice



Sixto said:


> Smiddy has a thread for all of the future HD discussion: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095


Sorry


----------



## Sixto

And yep, no new TLE, but certainly expecting that D11 is geostationary at 99.225°.

Only been 1 TLE update in 9 days.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Smiddy has a thread for all of the future HD discussion: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=132095


Yup...a good list for consideration....and the total is between the 37-40 number I mentioned earlier....what a coincidence...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> And yep, no new TLE, but certainly expecting that D11 is geostationary at 99.225°.
> 
> Only been 1 TLE update in 9 days.


Sixto = TLE guru. 

*Now*...no news is good news.


----------



## Sirshagg

grump said:


> As long as they don't come out with a "HD Expansion Pack Expansion Pack", I'm happy.
> 
> :grin:


Isn't that called Superfan?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sirshagg said:


> Isn't that called Superfan?


Naaaaah.

Its the HD Lust package. 

You mean you don't have that yet? :lol:


----------



## dhhaines

Having HD programming on the HD channels would be nice.

I guess if you build it... they will eventually have HD content.


----------



## Sirshagg

RAD said:


> A follow on to that question, if D* adds the HD versions of HBO/Cineman channels but not the SD version would you need to pay the HD Extra package charge to get them along with the HBO or Cinemax package charge?


They currently have some Starz HD channels and no corresponding SD channel. I have Starz and no HD Extra pack and I get them So I'd have to guess - no.


----------



## Sirshagg

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are a number of rumored Premium Channel additions out there on the list...rumors right now..
> 
> Anyone wanna bet if this thread hits 6000 posts first or a new HD National Channel appears first?


6000 - HA! I'd lay money down on 7000!


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Sirshagg said:


> 6000 - HA! I'd lay money down on 7000!


I call... I'm all in... :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

AirRocker said:


> I call... I'm all in... :lol:


Me too....even at this pace....Channels First....7000 posts second.


----------



## petergaryr

dhhaines said:


> Having HD programming on the HD channels would be nice.
> 
> I guess if you build it... they will eventually have HD content.


Took a while but Spike, Speed and even [gasp] TBS have been adding actual HD content over the past few months. Glad we already had the placeholder.


----------



## garydean

AirRocker said:


> I call... I'm all in... :lol:


That's a string bet!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

garydean said:


> That's a string bet!


Hold em or fold em... 

I think you can count on new National HD Channels to be lit up in a timeframe measured in days, as opposed to months... (keeping in mind August has 31 days)...


----------



## gregjones

dhhaines said:


> Having HD programming on the HD channels would be nice.
> 
> I guess if you build it... they will eventually have HD content.


Because that is so obviously DirecTV's fault and not that of the channels.


----------



## gregjones

petergaryr said:


> Took a while but Spike, Speed and even [gasp] TBS have been adding actual HD content over the past few months. Glad we already had the placeholder.


Yes, as discussed before, you either get them before they have HD content or after. Would you rather complain about having to wait for content on a channel you have or about missing the content that your provider didn't carry yet?

I also prefer having the placeholder. It looks better than the SD feed and it is so much more effective to tell a channel you are disappointed in what you see on their HD feed.


----------



## syphix

petergaryr said:


> Took a while but Spike, Speed and even [gasp] TBS have been adding actual HD content over the past few months. Glad we already had the placeholder.


I'm LOVING the CSI reruns in HD on Spike! Glad to see they joined the HD party!


----------



## paulman182

I would not call the pre-HD channels "placeholders." They are legitimate HD channels that are upscaling 480i programming. It's like playing a 1950's mono song on an FM stereo station, it's still a stereo station.

We don't condemn Sci-Fi for showing black-and-white Twilight Zones, or TV Land for showing black-and-white Beverly Hillbillies. Same thing.

Back to topic, I wonder if I should postpone my vacation until week after next...


----------



## petergaryr

syphix said:


> I'm LOVING the CSI reruns in HD on Spike! Glad to see they joined the HD party!


Totally. Especially the early ones that aired before I got my first HD set in 2002.


----------



## houskamp

I wouldn't bet against 10k posts with you guys


----------



## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> I wouldn't bet against 10k posts with you guys


...and thank you for yuuuur support...


----------



## byrdpack

I still wonder when CMT MTV and VH1 will start to air HD.


----------



## Darkscream

A quick question...Out of Topic...

Has D* outlined in totality what they are doing for their Olympics coverage ?


If not - then one would have to suppose that this news will coincide with expanded Sat. capacity ( thus the lack of news so far ) and if so then that window before the Olympics begin is shrinking pretty darn fast.


Basically just July 30 is the only possible date to do that IMO.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

I'm really happy to see HD content coming from some of the channels that doesn't normally produce real HD content.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

Darkscream said:


> A quick question...Out of Topic...
> 
> Has D* outlined in totality what they are doing for their Olympics coverage ?
> 
> If not - then one would have to suppose that this news will coincide with expanded Sat. capacity ( thus the lack of news so far ) and if so then that window before the Olympics begin is shrinking pretty darn fast.
> 
> Basically just July 30 is the only possible date to do that IMO.


I'm wondering the very same.


----------



## sticketfan

bumming that x-files marathon today on scifi isnt in hd.....


----------



## Iwanthd

Darkscream-

The schedule for existing channels appears here:

http://www.hdsportsguide.com/olympics/


----------



## Darkscream

Thanks - but I do not think that D* will be content with just that - I am sure there will be Mix channels and the like ( Not to mention is MSNBC even HD right now) ?



Iwanthd said:


> Darkscream-
> 
> The schedule for existing channels appears here:
> 
> http://www.hdsportsguide.com/olympics/


----------



## merchione

Iwanthd said:


> Darkscream-
> 
> The schedule for existing channels appears here:
> 
> http://www.hdsportsguide.com/olympics/


Good site thanks!


----------



## houskamp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and thank you for yuuuur support...


I got a stalker :eek2:


----------



## Darkscream

I also notice that roughly a week before the Wimbledon Tennis and the Golf Majors D* has issued press releases tooting their own horn about their Interactive coverage of those events.

I find it hard to believe they would not want to do the same for the Olympics.

Only thing holding them back from that so far is that the said press release would have to directly refer to expanded Sat. capacity.


----------



## bobnielsen

Iwanthd said:


> Darkscream-
> 
> The schedule for existing channels appears here:
> 
> http://www.hdsportsguide.com/olympics/


The only Track and Field coverage will be the marathons? I can't believe that!


----------



## flippedout

paulman182 said:


> We don't condemn Sci-Fi for showing black-and-white Twilight Zones, or TV Land for showing black-and-white Beverly Hillbillies. Same thing.


I do, however, condemn TBS for the 'make you sick fisheye' programming they run. The baseball games look great though. Luckily in Atlanta we have Peachtree TV so we can watch all the usual TBS programming without the fisheye (they just keep the original format on non-HD programming).

Can't wait for the new channels, whatever they may be it will be more than we have now!


----------



## dhhaines

gregjones said:


> Because that is so obviously DirecTV's fault and not that of the channels.


 Nope ... never said it was Directv's fault. It would just be nice if the channels would produce more HD content. Our local NBC affiliate can't or won't even spend the money to produce the news in HD!


----------



## merchione

:backtotop


----------



## Doug Brott

merchione said:


> :backtotop


Ditto .. It's one thing to speculate about what Channels will be coming across D11, but another entirely to speculate about what shows are going to be on those channels .. :scratchin


----------



## Doug Brott

VARTV said:


> Can you imagine how much room DirecTV would have if everything they did was in mpeg4?


Good point. When this is done, I think this will this be the first time a provider is all MPEG4.


----------



## reds1963

petergaryr said:


> Totally. Especially the early ones that aired before I got my first HD set in 2002.


agree i have more of them to watch since i did not get my JVC till 
xmas 05 ,,,nice present for my self ...now i am an HD-addict i used to go to my mothers for re hab every 2 weeks SD on TWC ....now i have her hooked on HD and she loves ,,,,her TWC gives her like 30 stations which is a lot for TWC ..
she freaks when ove at my place watching the DTV..hehehe


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Transponders (99c) steady today at 84-89 on the odd numbers and 90-95 on the even transponders....haven't seen the fluctuations today that we saw yesterday.


----------



## photostudent

DodgerKing said:


> That is the one thing that worries me about all of these new HD channels. I would not be surprised if Direct makes another HD tier and we have to end up paying another $5 to watch all of the HD or some of the channels we are currently watching.


I do not think they would up the HD Access charge right now because of D11 capacity. It would more likely see them expanding HD Extra to make it more attractive. We could be reaching a point where new HD content is not going to keep up with bandwidth!


----------



## gregjones

bobnielsen said:


> Can you imagine how many SD receivers would need to be replaced?


Meanwhile, in a different thread....

We were discussing DirecTV's move to attract higher-value customers. Now that I think about it, that might help with the eventual MPEG4 conversion. If lower-value customers have a concentration of MPEG2 equipment, weeding them out would reduce their eventual hardware swap costs. Get as many customers to MPEG4 as possible, weed out as much MPEG2 as possible and then switch. I had never thought of these two as related before.


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Transponders (99c) steady today at 84-89 on the odd numbers and 90-95 on the even transponders....haven't seen the fluctuations today that we saw yesterday.


My odds and evens are all within a point of each other. You may have a dodgy 99 LNB.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

gregjones said:


> Meanwhile, in a different thread....
> 
> We were discussing DirecTV's move to attract higher-value customers. Now that I think about it, that might help with the eventual MPEG4 conversion. If lower-value customers have a concentration of MPEG2 equipment, weeding them out would reduce their eventual hardware swap costs. Get as many customers to MPEG4 as possible, weed out as much MPEG2 as possible and then switch. I had never thought of these two as related before.


"Distant" cousins.....think about it....


----------



## Ken984

Last night 99c were all 94-95. This morning they were all 95.


----------



## gregjones

LameLefty said:


> My odds and evens are all within a point of each other. You may have a dodgy 99 LNB.


I agree hdtvfan0001, the odd and even transponder readings seem fairly even. I would worry about an equipment problem.


----------



## cartrivision

Sirshagg said:


> They currently have some Starz HD channels and no corresponding SD channel. I have Starz and no HD Extra pack and I get them So I'd have to guess - no.


The question is if and when they will start making those channels available to Stars subscribers who only have SD MPEG4 receivers (like the R22). Right now you have to pay the HD Access fee (not HD Extras) to get those channels.


----------



## bwaldron

LameLefty said:


> My odds and evens are all within a point of each other.


As are mine.


----------



## MIAMI1683

cartrivision said:


> The question is if and when they will start making those channels available to Stars subscribers who only have SD MPEG4 receivers (like the R22). Right now you have to pay the HD Access fee (not HD Extras) to get those channels.


 Maybe its time for an HRxx for you :lol: :lol: .


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Transponders (99c) steady today at 84-89 on the odd numbers and 90-95 on the even transponders....haven't seen the fluctuations today that we saw yesterday.


All 40s-50s here! 

~Alan


----------



## CompiledMonkey

How are you all picking up this signal? I see 99c and other numbers being mentioned, are these the individual satellites, or something else?


----------



## Curtis0620

Signal Strength screen under System Setup. You should have:

101
110
119
99(c)
99(s)
103(s)
103(c)

they are satellite orbital locations.


----------



## cartrivision

@6: 48am...


Matt9876 said:


> This thread is done !!
> 
> Lock it and put it in the archives.
> 
> Thanks to all !!!


@7:18am...


Matt9876 said:


> Vartv:
> 
> If they stick to 4 HD channels per transponder it gives them Very high quality 56 channels.
> 
> If it goes to 5 HD channels per transponder you will get 70 good HD channels.


I contend that a thread is not "done" if people proclaiming it done are still actively posting in the thread .


----------



## HD30TV

petergaryr said:


> Took a while but Spike, Speed and even [gasp] TBS have been adding actual HD content over the past few months. Glad we already had the placeholder.


What about CBSCS? They're currently running the 2008 NCAA Tourney games continuously and have been showing 2006 and 2007 SEC football games, all which I know were originally broadcast in HD, but have yet to ever see anything but a stretched 480P rebroadcast of these said events.


----------



## VeniceDre

Alan Gordon said:


> All 40s-50s here!
> 
> ~Alan


Looks like there's some tweaking in your future. Users in the SE are all reporting high numbers off 99c. As with 103c, I have to be content with my mid to high 80s here in the SW.


----------



## mjbehren

Low 60s and 70s here... odd/even.


Mb


----------



## cartrivision

MIAMI1683 said:


> cartrivision said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question is if and when they will start making those channels available to Stars subscribers who only have SD MPEG4 receivers (like the R22). Right now you have to pay the HD Access fee (not HD Extras) to get those channels.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe its time for an HRxx for you :lol: :lol: .
Click to expand...

Already did that a year ago, but the question still stands.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

Curtis0620 said:


> Signal Strength screen under System Setup. You should have:
> 
> 101
> 110
> 119
> 99(c)
> 99(s)
> 103(s)
> 103(c)
> 
> they are satellite orbital locations.


So how do we know which location the D11 is? Is it the 99(c)?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

CompiledMonkey said:


> So how do we know which location the D11 is? Is it the 99(c)?


D11 is 99(c) on the HR2x's and 99(a) on the H2x's.


----------



## Alan Gordon

VeniceDre said:


> Looks like there's some tweaking in your future. Users in the SE are all reporting high numbers off 99c. As with 103c, I have to be content with my mid to high 80s here in the SW.


Yeah, I know!

I was concerned with my numbers last year for 103c (my SlimeLine was installed before D10 was up)... but my numbers for 99c are WELL lower than what other (somewhat nearby) people are reporting.

The numbers for 103c has NEVER been a problem as we've been in a drought the last few years, but during the last month or so, we've actually gotten some fairly decent amount of rain, and rain fade is becoming more of an issue. Given the 40s-50s I'm getting on 99c, I see it becoming even MORE of an issue.

~Alan


----------



## Curtis0620

CompiledMonkey said:


> So how do we know which location the D11 is? Is it the 99(c)?


yes, and 103(c) is D10.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

Michael D'Angelo;1694996 said:


> D11 is 99(c) on the HR2x's and 99(a) on the H2x's.


Gotcha. I'll check it out tonight and see what I can pick up.


----------



## monetnj

Once they light up D11 and move some of those MPEG2 HD stations to MPEG4, another nail will have been driven into the coffin of the HD Tivo. I wonder how long before D* starts sending out letters telling them to switch to the HR-21 or lose everything but their OTA HD? I can already see the complaint threads. Oh well, can't wait for the new HD channels!


----------



## VeniceDre

Alan Gordon said:


> Yeah, I know!
> 
> I was concerned with my numbers last year for 103c (my SlimeLine was installed before D10 was up)... but my numbers for 99c are WELL lower than what other (somewhat nearby) people are reporting.
> 
> The numbers for 103c has NEVER been a problem as we've been in a drought the last few years, but during the last month or so, we've actually gotten some fairly decent amount of rain, and rain fade is becoming more of an issue. Given the 40s-50s I'm getting on 99c, I see it becoming even MORE of an issue.
> 
> ~Alan


You'll be surprised how just a quick adjustment will bring your numbers in line. When I was testing dishes last year with the new D10 feed I discovered how sensitive it was. I could adjust the tilt a fraction and keep all my other sat sigs the same, while D10 would jump 40 pts.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

monetnj said:


> Once they light up D11 and move some of those MPEG2 HD stations to MPEG4, another nail will have been driven into the coffin of the HD Tivo. I wonder how long before D* starts sending out letters telling them to switch to the HR-21 or lose everything but their OTA HD? I can already see the complaint threads. Oh well, can't wait for the new HD channels!


DIRECTV has already been doing a free MPEG2 only HD receiver (and HD TiVo) upgrade from about a month now. There has been discussion here and they have been sending out emails and calling I believe.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

Here's a stupid question. Are there multiple satellites my dish needs a signal from in order to receive all of the channels? Or, when D11 is available, will everything switch over there and all of a sudden my dish will be picking up a signal from it exclusively?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

CompiledMonkey said:


> Here's a stupid question. Are there multiple satellites my dish needs a signal from in order to receive all of the channels? Or, when D11 is available, will everything switch over there and all of a sudden my dish will be picking up a signal from it exclusively?


As long as your SD locals come from SAT 101 (I think they do) than you will only need to receive signals from SAT's 99, 101, and 103 once the MPEG2 HD channels are moved over to MPEG4.


----------



## VeniceDre

CompiledMonkey said:


> Here's a stupid question. Are there multiple satellites my dish needs a signal from in order to receive all of the channels? Or, when D11 is available, will everything switch over there and all of a sudden my dish will be picking up a signal from it exclusively?


There are no stupid questions!

You'll still be looking at the full array of sats, not just D11.


----------



## Sirshagg

monetnj said:


> Once they light up D11 and move some of those MPEG2 HD stations to MPEG4, another nail will have been driven into the coffin of the HD Tivo. I wonder how long before D* starts sending out letters telling them to switch to the HR-21 or lose everything but their OTA HD? I can already see the complaint threads. Oh well, can't wait for the new HD channels!


The HR10 still makes for a nice SD DVR with lots of storage space.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The MPEG2 SD discussion has been moved to this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133403

Please feel free to continue that discussion there, D11 in this thread.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## bigskyirish

DarinC said:


> Converting to MPEG4 wouldn't change that (unless they wanted to give up some of the bandwidth, which I doubt they'd want to do).
> 
> Actually, I'm really surprised they haven't started moving in this direction already. For those locations that are still missing LIL, it seems to me it would be much more logical to only transmit HD LIL, and use MPEG4 receivers to downconvert for those who don't yet have HD TVs. I'm sure one day...


Speaking of DMAs that are still missing LIL, I've seen lots of predictions on when D11 will start broadcasting national HD channels (for the record, my uninformed guess is 7/30). Does anyone have any guesses when the new local markets will be announced (both SD and HD) or when they will start broadcasting?

I'm moving into a new house and waiting to decide whether to make the switch to DirecTV. Everyone was extremely helpful in a couple of other threads I posted and the consensus was to wait to see if my locals got added. I'd like to make a decision so that I have some sort of HD (whether it be D* or cable) up and running by the time the Olympics start. With my cable company's horrendous turn around time, I need to make a decision soon.


----------



## xrobmn

VeniceDre said:


> Looks like there's some tweaking in your future. Users in the SE are all reporting high numbers off 99c. As with 103c, I have to be content with my mid to high 80s here in the SW.


I'm pulling 92-97 on all ther TP's off 99C.. I guess I'm happy for the moment  (up here in the great white north)


----------



## bruinfever

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and thank you for yuuuur support...


I'm betting on 7,648 posts before this thread is closed..:sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

bruinfever said:


> I'm betting on 7,648 posts before this thread is closed..:sure:


I'm already way above 7,000 posts


----------



## computersecguy

bigskyirish said:


> Speaking of DMAs that are still missing LIL, I've seen lots of predictions on when D11 will start broadcasting national HD channels (for the record, my uninformed guess is 7/30). Does anyone have any guesses when the new local markets will be announced (both SD and HD) or when they will start broadcasting?


I haven't seen anything yet, and trust me I have been looking. I did see where the Butte/Bozeman was posted somewhere around four months before they went live on D10 last year. Guessing that since E* has picked up the Helena and Great Falls DMAs recently, I probably won't see locals for a while.

But keep in mind that some stations may be received using the OTA capabilities of the H20/HR20 units or by adding the AM21. It just depends on your locations and what is available.


----------



## bigskyirish

computersecguy said:


> I haven't seen anything yet, and trust me I have been looking. I did see where the Butte/Bozeman was posted somewhere around four months before they went live on D10 last year. Guessing that E* has picked up the Helena and Great Falls DMAs recently, we probably won't see locals for a while.
> 
> But keep in mind that some stations may be received using the OTA capabilities of the H20/HR20 units or by adding the AM21. It just depends on your locations and what is available.


I'm guessing that unfortunately, you are probably right. I saw somewhere that CBS in Billings has a signed agreement with DirecTV for both SD and HD, but I don't know about the other stations. Any idea on why Butte/Bozeman would get added before Billings or Missoula? I suppose it will all depend on just how much D11 adds in terms of new DMAs. We have no chance at HD locals, but I would settle for SD at this point.


----------



## rey_1178

Eventually we'll only need D10,D11,D12 right? no more 110 or 119 for locals? how many transponders would D12 have?


----------



## computersecguy

bigskyirish said:


> I'm guessing that unfortunately, you are probably right. I saw somewhere that CBS in Billings has a signed agreement with DirecTV for both SD and HD, but I don't know about the other stations. Any idea on why Butte/Bozeman would get added before Billings or Missoula? I suppose it will all depend on just how much D11 adds in terms of new DMAs. We have no chance at HD locals, but I would settle for SD at this point.


Actually Missoula is also carried by E*. Someone will need to confirm it, but I think the number of locals that D11 can carry is 1,500.

From what I gather, there is a lot that goes into the decision to carry a DMA and not just size. One of the main sticking points seems to be contract negotiations. I actually switched to D* last year when hearing from the stations that D* was going to beat E* to the Helena DMA.

As someone pointed out, just keep an eye on the Local Receive Facilities list on the D* site.


----------



## LameLefty

computersecguy said:


> Actually Missoula is also carried by E*. Someone will need to confirm it, but I think the number of locals that D11 can carry is 1,500.
> 
> From what I gather, there is a lot that goes into the decision to carry a DMA and not just size. One of the main sticking points seems to be contract negotiations. I actually switched to D* last year when hearing from the stations that D* was going to beat E* to the Helena DMA.
> 
> As someone pointed out, just keep an eye on the Local Receive Facilities list on the D* site.


Another factor is the market itself - how likely are the "average" household to be buying premium channels, sports subscriptions, etc. Part of the reason while small, affluent markets (think Palm Springs) might get locals before larger markets.


----------



## jefbal99

rey_1178 said:


> Eventually we'll only need D10,D11,D12 right? no more 110 or 119 for locals? how many transponders would D12 have?


D10, D11, and D12 are functionally the same for broadcasting. D11 had an BSS test package, but from a KA standpoint, they should all be equal.


----------



## VeniceDre

Looks like someone else discovered another test channel (9341) with the gamesearch backdoor.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1695124&postcount=25


----------



## Pop72&9

VeniceDre said:


> Looks like someone else discovered another test channel (9341) with the gamesearch backdoor.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1695124&postcount=25


Watching it as I post. Red Sox vs Mariners. Top of the 3rd 2 on 1 out!


----------



## loudo

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm already way above 7,000 posts


Tom, is 7000 including the ones that you have already moved to other threads? My screen shows this one is 5866.


----------



## mjlthuston

computersecguy said:


> Actually Missoula is also carried by E*. Someone will need to confirm it, but I think the number of locals that D11 can carry is 1,500.
> 
> From what I gather, there is a lot that goes into the decision to carry a DMA and not just size. One of the main sticking points seems to be contract negotiations. I actually switched to D* last year when hearing from the stations that D* was going to beat E* to the Helena DMA.
> 
> As someone pointed out, just keep an eye on the Local Receive Facilities list on the D* site.


Rumor in Missoula is E* will start carrying HD in Jan. I have a contact at one of the local stations and he said D* has a carrier agreement with the corporate headquarters, but there is no Local Recieve Facility set up (unless one is set up at the D* call center).

An installer told someone that D* locals would be available for Griz Football, but everything I've seen about installers and CSRs makes me doubt the veracity of that prediction.

I'm holding out hope that Missoula will get locals from D* because we have about 1000 people who work for D* here at the new Call Center.


----------



## merchione

:backtotop


----------



## inkahauts

computersecguy said:


> Actually Missoula is also carried by E*. Someone will need to confirm it, but I think the number of locals that D11 can carry is 1,500.
> 
> From what I gather, there is a lot that goes into the decision to carry a DMA and not just size. One of the main sticking points seems to be contract negotiations. I actually switched to D* last year when hearing from the stations that D* was going to beat E* to the Helena DMA.
> 
> As someone pointed out, just keep an eye on the Local Receive Facilities list on the D* site.


D11 can not carry 1500 HD LIL channels. D11 gives their entire system the capacity to carry 1500 HD LIL.... Big Difference. And everyone needs to remember... There is still at least one transponder on D10 for conus that will be shut off soon... (maybe 2?) According to Tom, eons ago, they have been using at least one spare transponder until D11 is up and running... Turning off that transponder will free up a lot more space for many LIL HD channels from D10 too.... (I am assuming that when they shut off the conus transponder, they will fire up additional Spot Beams and use the bandwidth there.....)


----------



## ncxcstud

I've got a question...

How long did it take DirecTV to turn on the new HD channels once people started seeing signals (consistently strong signal readings) on the 103(c) [D10] satellite? Would that be a good idea to compare to how long we might have to wait for some new HD channels (or the legacy MPEG2 channels to make the switch to MPEG4) from the 99(c) [D11] satellite?

I'm patiently waiting for the Columbia, SC DMA to get their HD LiL...


----------



## majikmarker

Wondering if I should be concerned yet. On 99c I am seeing signals that range from 44-73, yet on 99s I see 2-3 transponders and they are 95+. 

I am in the Northwest, north of Seattle. Is there still a lot of tweaking going on and if so, could my low numbers be a result of low power or aiming issues with the sat and not dish alignment?

Just wondering, as I have strong signals on every other sat.


----------



## Sixto

ncxcstud said:


> I've got a question...
> 
> How long did it take DirecTV to turn on the new HD channels once people started seeing signals (consistently strong signal readings) on the 103(c) [D10] satellite? Would that be a good idea to compare to how long we might have to wait for some new HD channels (or the legacy MPEG2 channels to make the switch to MPEG4) from the 99(c) [D11] satellite?
> 
> I'm patiently waiting for the Columbia, SC DMA to get their HD LiL...


The D10 plan was 7 days. Took 14 days due to unrelated issue. For comparison, 7 is the answer.


----------



## ncxcstud

Thanks Sixto. Hopefully that comes to pass and I'll be a happy man on July 30th...


----------



## HD30TV

Pop72&9 said:


> Watching it as I post. Red Sox vs Mariners. Top of the 3rd 2 on 1 out!


I've got it here! (and in eastern Iowa, which is really odd), but its a replay. And in SD letterbox to boot.

Oh wait, duh. No wonder it was blacked out on FSN NW. Only live games are allowed on out-of-market RSNs with the MLB EI package.


----------



## bhelton71

Sixto said:


> The D10 plan was 7 days. Took 14 days due to unrelated issue. For comparison, 7 is the answer.


I was trying to remember D10 - this brings it back:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=99005

On D10 only a small number of transponders showed up at first - and they were not very good readings. D11 in comparison is lit up like a Griswold Family Christmas. Is this because of the 'special' package they were testing at the other site - so it is arriving to its spot already powered up ?


----------



## LameLefty

bhelton71 said:


> I was trying to remember D10 - this brings it back:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=99005
> 
> On D10 only a small number of transponders showed up at first - and they were not very good readings. D11 in comparison is lit up like a Griswold Family Christmas. Is this because of the 'special' package they were testing at the other site - so it is arriving to its spot already powered up ?


I suspect it's more from the fact that it was tested once right around 99.2 already before moving the first time. That, plus experience with the same basic satellite configuration last year with D10 let them move things along more rapidly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bhelton71 said:


> I was trying to remember D10 - this brings it back:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=99005
> 
> On D10 only a small number of transponders showed up at first - and they were not very good readings. D11 in comparison is lit up like a Griswold Family Christmas. Is this because of the 'special' package they were testing at the other site - so it is arriving to its spot already powered up ?


Hard to be sure at this point. Very possibly or it might have been the problems that D10 suffered took some time to sort out. I think since D11 was already tested in a nearby location and deemed healthy, it's just ready to go! (And so am I.)

Cheers,
Tom

Edit: Yeah, what Herb said.


----------



## Ken984

majikmarker said:


> Wondering if I should be concerned yet. On 99c I am seeing signals that range from 44-73, yet on 99s I see 2-3 transponders and they are 95+.
> 
> I am in the Northwest, north of Seattle. Is there still a lot of tweaking going on and if so, could my low numbers be a result of low power or aiming issues with the sat and not dish alignment?
> 
> Just wondering, as I have strong signals on every other sat.


99s is a spotbeam and it will usually show higher readings than a conus beam 99c.
I wouldn't be overly worried yet. What are your readings on 103c?


----------



## Newshawk

inkahauts said:


> D11 can not carry 1500 HD LIL channels. D11 gives their entire system the capacity to carry 1500 HD LIL.... B


Also remember that MPEG 4 SD LiLs take up way less room than HD LiLs, so it would be feasable to have 1500 HD LiLs and still have a large amount of MPEG 4 SD LiLs. That is with counting only the two Spaceways, D10 and D11. Adding D12 into the mix next year will really shake things up!


----------



## Newshawk

CompiledMonkey said:


> Here's a stupid question. Are there multiple satellites my dish needs a signal from in order to receive all of the channels? Or, when D11 is available, will everything switch over there and all of a sudden my dish will be picking up a signal from it exclusively?


Actually, the Slimline dish looks at five satellite locations. There are at least two satellites in each slot at 99, 101 and 103, plus the "wing" satellites at 110 and 119 (not to mention the 72.5 and 95 sats, which were short term fixs until the DirecTV long range plans were completed.) The Clarke belt is really a busy place up in that neighborhood!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Just at 101°, DIRECTV has 4 satellites, AMC has one or two and is there another one? 

Soon, many people, who only get their SDs from 101°, will only need to see 99, 101, and 103 unless they get internationals as well.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## rey_1178

Tom Robertson said:


> Just at 101°, DIRECTV has 4 satellites, AMC has one or two and is there another one?
> 
> Soon, many people, who only get their SDs from 101°, will only need to see 99, 101, and 103 unless they get internationals as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


this is what i was trying to ask earlier. thanks tom


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> Just at 101°, DIRECTV has 4 satellites, AMC has one or two and is there another one?


AMC 2 & 4, I think.
http://www.lyngsat.com/101west.html


----------



## merchione

Can anyone else see any test channels?


----------



## Matt9876

merchione said:


> Can anyone else see any test channels?


Not at this time , But I'm ready with a test to confirm D11 video operation when they do turn one on.

Transponders are going on and off like light switchs for the past 30 mins.

#1,2,3,4,9,10,12 in the past few mins.


----------



## flyingtigerfan

I have the 9341 channel as well. Sox and Mariners replay, tied at 3 in the 11th. It's SD of FSN NW. Have no idea where the signal is from. Personally, I think it's from D12.

Also patiently waiting for Columbia, SC HD locals. That's two of us. Hope it's enough!

EDIT: It actually appears to be an HD feed of an SD broadcast. I have the black bars. On SD, I would not as I have it set to stretch like TNTvision.


----------



## griz

bigskyirish said:


> I'm guessing that unfortunately, you are probably right. I saw somewhere that CBS in Billings has a signed agreement with DirecTV for both SD and HD, but I don't know about the other stations. Any idea on why Butte/Bozeman would get added before Billings or Missoula? I suppose it will all depend on just how much D11 adds in terms of new DMAs. We have no chance at HD locals, but I would settle for SD at this point.


I believe that was me posting over at AVS.

I had emailed KTVQ (CBS) and they responded that. KULR (NBC) emailed me back that they did not have any agreements in place. I didn't bother with ABC and FOX since those locals are so crappy to begin with.


----------



## bigskyirish

griz said:


> I believe that was me posting over at AVS.
> 
> I had emailed KTVQ (CBS) and they responded that. KULR (NBC) emailed me back that they did not have any agreements in place. I didn't bother with ABC and FOX since those locals are so crappy to begin with.


I think you're right. I couldn't remember where I saw the info. I'm thinking that the fact that NBC does not have agreements in place doesn't bode well for us getting locals this time around.


----------



## griz

bigskyirish said:


> I think you're right. I couldn't remember where I saw the info. I'm thinking that the fact that NBC does not have agreements in place doesn't bode well for us getting locals this time around.


I thought that as well, but I believe the email said something to the effect that they hadn't been contancted by DirecTV, not that that hadn't reached an agreement.

Here's my email from KTVQ:

"Tim:

KTVQ has a contract with both Dish and DirecTV allowing them to rebroadcast our signal in both analog and digital. As of this time, only Dish Network has chosen to carry local signals. We certainly hope DirecTV decides to carry local signals, and encourage them to do so.

Monty Wallis

KTVQ-2"

Here's my email from KULR:

"Hi Tim. We're simply waiting to hear from DirecTV on their plans to launch "local into local" in the Billings market. So, at this time we're in the dark on when DirecTV will have the infrastructure in place to begin carrying local channels in the Billings market (of course that could change at any time). In a just released statement last week, the FCC adopted a new rule saying that DirecTV and DISH have until 2013 before they will be required to carry the HD signal of ALL local broadcasters. That doesn't mean DirecTV will wait that long in the Billings market but it does give them quite a bit of cushion before they need to take any action.

Hope that helps. Feel free to contact me, at your convenience, with any questions related to satellite, cable, or over-the-air coverage. We'll do our best to provide as much assistance as possible.

Regards,

Bruce Cummings
General Manager 
KULR-8 Television"

I then asked if they actually had any agreements, and received this reply:

"Good question Tim. The quick answer is "no", there are no agreements in place. There has been no official communication or discussion between DirecTV and local broadcasters, at least not KULR-8, to offer local channels. Additionally, I'm still not aware of any movement from DirecTV to build out their infrastructure in the Billings market. It seems that it took DISH about 3 months to get everything in place so once DirecTV gets their uplink site established, things could move pretty quick. Next, they need approval from each broadcaster to allow each station's local channel on their system. Those arrangements for approval have rolled out quickly in other markets so it shouldn't be any different in Billings. Finally, as you point out, DirecTV needs bandwidth space within their satellite system so this new launch (D11) may be just what is needed. Let's hope you're right about local availability sometime this year, that would be good news for all of us. As more and more people contact DirecTV about local channels in Billings, the sooner it should happen.

Let's keep in touch.

Bruce."


----------



## evan_s

Back on topic 
RobertE's post about instructions to HSPs about Slimline 3's seems to confirm that they expect at least Mpeg 4 mirrors to be active on D11 by 7/31. Can't see any other way they can plan to be installing them.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1695479&postcount=53


----------



## PaulieORF

For anyone who's interested, when I got home from work today I turned on my TV to see that the picture had frozen on the famous channel 9323.


----------



## PoitNarf

flyingtigerfan said:


> I have the 9341 channel as well. Sox and Mariners replay, tied at 3 in the 11th. It's SD of FSN NW. Have no idea where the signal is from. Personally, I think it's from D12.


D12 is still on Earth


----------



## syphix

PoitNarf said:


> D12 is still on Earth


And they can't still be testing it??

Sure, it causes a few tumors here or there when you're standing right next to it, but man....NO RAIN FADE!!


----------



## gruversm

On my H21 (99a) I get:

41 69 36 63 38 65 30 63
36 67 33 63 38 65


----------



## sadude39

gruversm said:


> On my H21 (99a) I get:
> 
> 41 69 36 63 38 65 30 63
> 36 67 33 63 38 65


those are about the same readings I get on my H20. Does this indicate that those of us with H2X receivers are receiving lower numbers than those with HR2X receivers? Has anyone looked into this as a possible problem that Directv needs to correct?


----------



## TheHaps

Hi Everyone!

I'm new here. After looking around I have to say this place is AWESOME!. So much info on the new satellite. When do you guys think we'll see new channels?


----------



## Villager

sadude39 said:


> those are about the same readings I get on my H20. Does this indicate that those of us with H2X receivers are receiving lower numbers than those with HR2X receivers? Has anyone looked into this as a possible problem that Directv needs to correct?


I had the opposite: Same dish but higher readings on the H20 than on the HR20. And, HR20 = HR21 located about 15 miles apart.


----------



## Grydlok

TheHaps said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> I'm new here. After looking around I have to say this place is AWESOME!. So much info on the new satellite. When do you guys think we'll see new channels?


:welcome_s


----------



## johnb1963

Is anyone getting any test channels on H20- 600? If so what channels?


----------



## majikmarker

Ken984 said:


> 99s is a spotbeam and it will usually show higher readings than a conus beam 99c.
> I wouldn't be overly worried yet. What are your readings on 103c?


Thanks for the reply...103c I have readings between 82-94


----------



## Pop72&9

TheHaps said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> I'm new here. After looking around I have to say this place is AWESOME!. So much info on the new satellite. When do you guys think we'll see new channels?


Welcome aboard. Dates guessed at have ranged from next Wednesday to who knows when. Being a glass half full kinda guy my guess is next Wednesday 6 am eastern.


----------



## Sixto

TheHaps said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> I'm new here. After looking around I have to say this place is AWESOME!. So much info on the new satellite. When do you guys think we'll see new channels?


Best case: 7/30 6am ET. Worst case: 8/13 6am ET.

Most money is on best case. Welcome aboard!


----------



## xxx

Sixto said:


> Best case: 7/30 6am ET. Worst case: 8/13 6am ET.
> 
> Most money is on best case. Welcome aboard!


This has me wondering. If memory serves, seems like folks with TIVO's were able to kinda give a hint as to when new channels would be activated. Seems like they could see those channels show up in their guide or in some other manner---I don't have a TIVO so I'm just basing this on memory.

Does anyone else recall the posts that detail this?

TIA!

xxx


----------



## Alan Gordon

xxx said:


> This has me wondering. If memory serves, seems like folks with TIVO's were able to kinda give a hint as to when new channels would be activated. Seems like they could see those channels show up in their guide or in some other manner---I don't have a TIVO so I'm just basing this on memory.
> 
> Does anyone else recall the posts that detail this?


Yes, people with stand-alone TiVos. Good point... I need to hook mine up! 

~Alan


----------



## Jason78

Also new here, though I've been reading this page and the topics for a while now.

Hello to everyone!

Question: I live in Youngstown Ohio and it is expected that with this new roll out, we are getting our locals in HD. Im getting signals on the 99(s) but they are only strong on 2 transponders, high 80's low 90's, while the others are in the 60's and even 40's. 
Any idea what this means?


----------



## Ken984

majikmarker said:


> Thanks for the reply...103c I have readings between 82-94


That is a little odd to have 103 that high and 99 so low, I would keep an eye on it for now. If it doesn't get better in the next few days a small tweak may be necessary.


----------



## RD in Fla

Ken984 said:


> That is a little odd to have 103 that high and 99 so low, I would keep an eye on it for now. If it doesn't get better in the next few days a small tweak may be necessary.


I have the same issue and just tried to tweak 99(c) and ended up with all 0's. Everything else stayed the same (high 80s and 90s) with the exception of 119 which also dropped into the 70s and 80s. What gives??


----------



## hdtvfan0001

RD in Fla said:


> I have the same issue and just tried to tweak 99(c) and ended up with all 0's. Everything else stayed the same (high 80s and 90s) with the exception of 119 which also dropped into the 70s and 80s. What gives??


I'm not sure I'd be adjusting much of anything at this point...especially since the levels continue to change up and down periodically as the internal testing goes on. Just today...they were steady for hours, and then started to bounce from 0 to 90 something on many transponders.

Perhaps it would be prudent to wait a bit longer for any Dish adjustments until we say several days of level stability.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

I just checked the signals for 99(c) and I'm getting mid 30s on the even numbers.


----------



## Scooter22

Alan Gordon said:


> Yes, people with stand-alone TiVos. Good point... I need to hook mine up!
> 
> ~Alan


You could save yourself the trouble and go to http://www.zap2it.com/

That should have the same guide data as your TiVo.

Scooter


----------



## RD in Fla

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm not sure I'd be adjusting much of anything at this point...especially since the levels continue to change up and down periodically as the internal testing goes on. Just today...they were steady for hours, and then started to bounce from 0 to 90 something on many transponders.
> 
> Perhaps it would be prudent to wait a bit longer for any Dish adjustments until we say several days of level stability.


You are probably right but I just couldn't resist.::grin: Oh well I will wait until some steady signals appear or programming itself.


----------



## VeniceDre

Scooter22 said:


> You could save yourself the trouble and go to http://www.zap2it.com/
> 
> That should be the same guide data as your TiVo will have.
> 
> Scooter


If I recall correctly a lot of channels showed up a few days before they were activated on D10 in the Zap2it online guide.


----------



## xxx

VeniceDre said:


> If I recall correctly a lot of channels showed up a few days before they were activated on D10 in the Zap2it online guide.


I just checked a few moments ago and unless I was doing something wrong, whcih could very well have been the case, I didn't see anything new. I wonder how many days in advance?


----------



## LameLefty

xxx said:


> I just checked a few moments ago and unless I was doing something wrong, whcih could very well have been the case, I didn't see anything new. I wonder how many days in advance?


I doubt anything would show until at least Monday or so.


----------



## purtman

xxx said:


> I just checked a few moments ago and unless I was doing something wrong, whcih could very well have been the case, I didn't see anything new. I wonder how many days in advance?


It's still about six days in advance. I believe the first time was just two-three days before. I may be wrong, but that's my best guess.


----------



## xxx

LameLefty said:


> I doubt anything would show until at least Monday or so.


True, that is, if anything will be added on the 30th or not.


----------



## purtman

Jason78 said:


> Also new here, though I've been reading this page and the topics for a while now.
> 
> Hello to everyone!
> 
> Question: I live in Youngstown Ohio and it is expected that with this new roll out, we are getting our locals in HD. Im getting signals on the 99(s) but they are only strong on 2 transponders, high 80's low 90's, while the others are in the 60's and even 40's.
> Any idea what this means?


First of all, welcome to the site. I have good news and bad news. The 99(s) is a spot beam. You won't get signals on all of them so your readings are good. That's the good news. The bad news is you're in Youngstown, OH. LOL!!! Just kidding. Hope this helps.


----------



## bakers12

Jason78 said:


> Also new here, though I've been reading this page and the topics for a while now.
> 
> Hello to everyone!
> 
> Question: I live in Youngstown Ohio and it is expected that with this new roll out, we are getting our locals in HD. Im getting signals on the 99(s) but they are only strong on 2 transponders, high 80's low 90's, while the others are in the 60's and even 40's.
> Any idea what this means?


:welcome_s 
Two transponders should give you at least 10 channels. Maybe that's enough for now. The other TPs are aimed at other cities.


----------



## kw2957

purtman said:


> The bad news is you're in Youngstown, OH. LOL!!! Just kidding. Hope this helps.


Haha. I got a chuckle out of that. :lol:


----------



## flyingtigerfan

PoitNarf said:


> D12 is still on Earth


Yeah, I know. That was my own particular brand of dry humor.


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Best case: 7/30 6am ET. Worst case: 8/13 6am ET.
> 
> Most money is on best case.....


O PLEASE O PLEASE DIRECTV 7/30


----------



## Alan Gordon

VeniceDre said:


> If I recall correctly a lot of channels showed up a few days before they were activated on D10 in the Zap2it online guide.


If I remember correctly, some of them showed on the Stand-Alone TiVos before they were shown on Zap2it.com. Some of them showed up on other things (DirecTV.com online guide, etc...), but didn't show up on the TiVo. Some of them didn't show up at all...

The reason why I said I would go ahead and set it up is that that way, when I turn it on, I'll have a page pop up should the channels be added telling me that they were added.

~Alan


----------



## John Amon

Something interesting is happening in Charlotte this pm. My HR20 has started showing the HD listing for the local channels, 3, 3-1, 3-2 etc... The HR20 is showing the HD sub channels. Charlotte has been receiving the locals in HD for awhile, (Really nice and feel for you guys that do not have). PBS and CW are listing as multiple HD channels but both have not been shown in HD. Also had mid 70- mid 80 reading on 99 (S). Wondering if DTV is moving our spotbeam to D11? Thanks everyone.


----------



## DodgerKing

John Amon said:


> Something interesting is happening in Charlotte this pm. My HR20 has started showing the HD listing for the local channels, 3, 3-1, 3-2 etc... The HR20 is showing the HD sub channels. Charlotte has been receiving the locals in HD for awhile, (Really nice and feel for you guys that do not have). PBS and CW are listing as multiple HD channels but both have not been shown in HD. Also had mid 70- mid 80 reading on 99 (S). Wondering if DTV is moving our spotbeam to D11? Thanks everyone.


It seems as though you programmed the OTA channels into the guide.


----------



## Dolly

merchione said:


> O PLEASE O PLEASE DIRECTV 7/30


7/30 would be great, but I think we can all live until 8/13. Can't we


----------



## Paul A

Dolly said:


> 7/30 would be great, but I think we can all live until 8/13. Can't we


I'm sorry Dolly, I cant. I have a tight schedule!

More HD for all!!!

Paul


----------



## mgtr

TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.


----------



## inkahauts

Newshawk said:


> Also remember that MPEG 4 SD LiLs take up way less room than HD LiLs, so it would be feasable to have 1500 HD LiLs and still have a large amount of MPEG 4 SD LiLs. That is with counting only the two Spaceways, D10 and D11. Adding D12 into the mix next year will really shake things up!


I don't expect Directv to launch an HD and an SD version of a channel ever again.. Any new SD channel will be viewed from a down resed HD feed at the box.... Other wise they'd being wasting bandwidth and I expect that when they launch SD MPEG-4 channels, they will still alot that channel the bandwidth of an HD station, so when they flip the switch... there is no space issues... and I expect that next year...


----------



## MIAMI1683

inkahauts said:


> I don't expect Directv to launch an HD and an SD version of a channel ever again.. Any new SD channel will be viewed from a down resed HD feed at the box.... Other wise they'd being wasting bandwidth and I expect that when they launch SD MPEG-4 channels, they will still alot that channel the bandwidth of an HD station, so when they flip the switch... there is no space issues... and I expect that next year...


 I think you are close to correct. With the R22, it seems like. They can just downrez the signal. The box still sees mpeg4. It just doesn't output in HD. Makes sense to me. Plus over time most people will upgrade and they won't even have to go through a conversion.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

D11....More HD....Life's good...

Mike


----------



## steveken

mgtr said:


> TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.


Woah! Thems fightin words there, boy!!!! LOL, seriously, I LOVED my TiVo and I miss it greatly!!! It really hurt when DirecTV broke with them. Their DVR's are far superior than anything I have ever seen (never got to play with Replay, so I don't know about it and there are too many pc based ones for me to know about all them). I have always secretly hoped they would bring back TiVo software to our boxes.

Anyway, Back on topic, I know. Just wanted to spill that out there. I noticed the tp's bouncing down to 0 quite a bit yesterday myself and just figured it was something weather related or possibly more testing, but still wondered about it. Haven't looked anymore today yet so I don't know if its steady here or not.


----------



## dshu82

I have been 95+ on all transponders for the last two days. Good aiming by me! Let's go for 7/30!!!!!!


----------



## davidjplatt

mgtr said:


> TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.


Bull.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mgtr said:


> TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.





davidjplatt said:


> Bull.


Giraffe.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dshu82 said:


> I have been 95+ on all transponders for the last two days. Good aiming by me! Let's go for 7/30!!!!!!


Yesterday they were flopping up and down from 0 to 90 something on various transponders as they play "lets run a transponder test" for much of the day...finally at night, things settled down.

My 99c levels are virtually even with my 103c levels, if not 1 point or so higher...

Now all we have to do is sit back and wait for the new HD channels to be turned on!


----------



## Crow159

Even transponders are all at mid to upper 80's for 99c. Odd transponders are all mid to lower 70's with the exception of TP7 and TP11 which are 67 to 69.

Is anyone also getting lower odd transponder signals? Why would the even be mid to upper 80's and the odd be that much lower? I would think if my dish needed to be tweaked that all transponders would be lower and about the same.

101,110,119, and both 103's are all in the upper 80's to mid 90's.


----------



## smiddy

*Prediction:* July 30, 2008 we will see new HD and it will be on the order of 10 - 20 channels nation wide.  Oh, and a group of locals will get added as well, but my crystal ball is failing me on the numbers on that one, perhaps 5 markets.


----------



## Curtis0620

smiddy said:


> *Prediction:* July 30, 2008 we will see new HD and it will be on the order of 10 - 20 channels nation wide.  Oh, and a group of locals will get added as well, but my crystal ball is failing me on the numbers on that one, perhaps 5 markets.


Is that 10-20 including the MPEG2 to MPEG4 channels?


----------



## smiddy

Curtis0620 said:


> Is that 10-20 including the MPEG2 to MPEG4 channels?


NEW HD, not conversions from MPEG2 to MPEG4...


----------



## Curtis0620

smiddy said:


> NEW HD, not conversions from MPEG2 to MPEG4...


Sounds good to me. Even if half will probably be HBO/Cinemax etc.


----------



## CompiledMonkey

smiddy said:


> *Prediction:* July 30, 2008 we will see new HD and it will be on the order of 10 - 20 channels nation wide.  Oh, and a group of locals will get added as well, but my crystal ball is failing me on the numbers on that one, perhaps 5 markets.


I seriously hope you're wrong about the HD locals in only 5 new markets.  I reallllllly hope they come to Richmond with D11.


----------



## Hdhead

smiddy said:


> *Prediction:* July 30, 2008 we will see new HD and it will be on the order of 10 - 20 channels nation wide.  Oh, and a group of locals will get added as well, but my crystal ball is failing me on the numbers on that one, perhaps 5 markets.


Is this an INFORMED prediction or a wet dream.:sure:


----------



## henryld

Hdhead said:


> Is this an INFORMED prediction or a wet dream.:sure:


Considering smiddy's recent history I would guess INFORMED.


----------



## texasbrit

Crow159 said:


> Even transponders are all at mid to upper 80's for 99c. Odd transponders are all mid to lower 70's with the exception of TP7 and TP11 which are 67 to 69.
> 
> Is anyone also getting lower odd transponder signals? Why would the even be mid to upper 80's and the odd be that much lower? I would think if my dish needed to be tweaked that all transponders would be lower and about the same.
> 
> 101,110,119, and both 103's are all in the upper 80's to mid 90's.


It is quite common for a slightly misaligned dish to show different signal levels for odds and evens on DirecTV10, and therefore I would expect on DirecTV11 as well. My guess is that you are not quite perfectly aligned on 101, or the dish mount is not perfectly plumb.

Just as a reference, my 99(c) currently shows signal at 94 on all transponders (first time I have ever had exactly the same signal on every transponder!). My 101 has 94-100 on every transponder except the spotbeams, 110 is 94-96, 119 is 94-100, and 103(c) is at 92-96.


----------



## harsh

mgtr said:


> TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.


TiVo = DVR that does everything a DVR must do -- consistently.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> TiVo = DVR that does everything a DVR must do -- consistently.


Not here folks...it *never* did that...the key word being *consistently*.

There's another thread to debate that issue.

In the mean time...

:backtotop


----------



## DodgerKing

mgtr said:


> TIVO = Archaic device, used by some miguided souls, similar to original Edison recordings on wax cylinders.


True that...

TiVO's are the most overrated DVR's in existence. I think it is just the name that sells the product. I still have a TiVO in one of our rooms and I now much prefer the HR**. The TiVO has too many menus and screens one must navigate through. Heck even turning the thing off via the remote requires three steps and multiple pushes of varies buttons. There is now only one thing that I prefer on the TiVO over my HR20 and that is the live duel tuners.


----------



## DodgerKing

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not here folks...it *never* did that...the key word being *consistently*.
> 
> There's another thread to debate that issue.
> 
> In the mean time...
> 
> :backtotop


Sorry, I started to reply before you posted this.

I will make this reply on topic: My HR20 can read D11 and it has fairly strong signal readings at this moment. My TiVO has no idea D11 even exists. :lol:


----------



## man_rob

smiddy said:


> *Prediction:* July 30, 2008 we will see new HD and it will be on the order of 10 - 20 channels nation wide.  Oh, and a group of locals will get added as well, but my crystal ball is failing me on the numbers on that one, perhaps 5 markets.


All hail Smiddy!!!


----------



## gregjones

Move the proTiVo and antiTiVo rants elsewhere, people.


----------



## DodgerKing

man_rob said:


> All hail Smiddy!!!


Does smiddy really know something or does he just happen to have good psychic abilities?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DodgerKing said:


> Does smiddy really know something or does he just happen to have good psychic abilities?


You're questioning someone who has 2 5LNB dishes (for ears) on his head? 

Check the avatar - case closed.


----------



## DodgerKing

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You're questioning someone who has 2 5LNB dishes (for ears) on his head?
> 
> Check the avatar - case closed.


:lol:


----------



## dcowboy7

Dolly said:


> 7/30 would be great, but I think we can all live until 8/13. Can't we


if its mostly rsns and pay channels yes i can wait....if its good channels then no.


----------



## xxx

dcowboy7 said:


> if its mostly rsns and pay channels yes i can wait....if its good channels then no.


I agree, RSN's do nothing for me, but national---well, then that's a whole different ballgame!!


----------



## Crow159

texasbrit said:


> It is quite common for a slightly misaligned dish to show different signal levels for odds and evens on DirecTV10, and therefore I would expect on DirecTV11 as well. My guess is that you are not quite perfectly aligned on 101, or the dish mount is not perfectly plumb.
> 
> Just as a reference, my 99(c) currently shows signal at 94 on all transponders (first time I have ever had exactly the same signal on every transponder!). My 101 has 94-100 on every transponder except the spotbeams, 110 is 94-96, 119 is 94-100, and 103(c) is at 92-96.


Should I adjust the dish, or are the signal levels high enough that I shouldn't have problems?

I have a slimline that I can reach, but I don't know which adjustment to make. I would hate to adjust the 99c in but have the 103 or 101 go out. I can aim a 3 LNB dish with my eyes shut, but the slimline is a little to overwhelming. Is it a lot harder to tweak than a 3 LNB?


----------



## VARTV

vurbano said:


> Norfolk DMA 43 HD LIL please D*?


Saw this on Wavy's website...


----------



## paulman182

harsh said:


> TiVo = DVR that does everything a DVR must do -- consistently.


Does that mean my HR20s are really Tivos?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm back to steady transponders for 99c this morning - the Odd ones in the 85-89 range, the Evens in the 90-95 range.


----------



## waynebtx

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm back to steady transponders for 99c this morning - the Odd ones in the 85-89 range, the Evens in the 90-95 range.


Mine are reverse of your my Odd are in the 90,s and even are in the 80,s


----------



## woj027

OK, So we have a huge list of potential channels that can light up in the very near future. 

Where are they going to go? As in, what channel numbers are they going to be mapped to?

DirecTv took the time to tell us all our RSN's were moving around, but what about these new channels? Wouldn't DirecTV have moved some channels around by now to fit the new ones in?

**I made this same post in Smiddy's "National HD Channels NOT Carried Currently " thread****


----------



## Sixto

No rhyme or reason to mine. Some high, some mid-80's. TP3 the low (85), TP13 the high (96).


Code:


 1: 92    2: 94
 3: 85    4: 92
 5: 91    6: 90
 7: 84    8: 89
 9: 95   10: 91
11: 89   12: 88
13: 96   14: 95


----------



## ncxcstud

I checked this morning and all my signal readings on 99c were between 92-95 .

Pretty good for a guy who aligned his dish totally by hand with no help whatsoever. I guess my 'guesstimation' was pretty good


----------



## smiddy

Hey, anything greater than eighty is gravy!


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Giraffe.


Zebra


----------



## petergaryr

For the benefit of new visitors, here is a a job aid for postings concerning D11:

*If channels light up on 7/30*: post the following type comments:

"I can't believe we waited this long for these channels"
"I switched from [name of carrier] to DirecTV for _this_?"
"How come [name of channel] isn't turned on??"

*If channels do not light up on 7/30*: post the following type comments:

"Well, DirecTV lied to us again."
"I can't believe they missed another deadline."
"More broken promises."

Please do not post anything that would indicate you understand how much of an effort goes into launching, testing and broadcasting from a satellite. Also, ignore any official DirecTV documents that refer to September as the time to expect new channels.


----------



## VaJim

VARTV said:


> Saw this on Wavy's website...


Thanks....I had not seen this.

fall 2008..? Not soon enough.


----------



## texasbrit

Crow159 said:


> Should I adjust the dish, or are the signal levels high enough that I shouldn't have problems?
> 
> I have a slimline that I can reach, but I don't know which adjustment to make. I would hate to adjust the 99c in but have the 103 or 101 go out. I can aim a 3 LNB dish with my eyes shut, but the slimline is a little to overwhelming. Is it a lot harder to tweak than a 3 LNB?


Your 60s are a bit too low for comfort, if I were you I might try to fine tune the dish a little. Once you have the slimline in basic alignment, you can fine tune it without too much difficulty, assuming it is level (check the bubble level). Don't try to fine tune for 99c, concentrate initially on 103c. If 101 and 103c are good, 99c should be good also.
You won't have to go through a full alignment, but you should read the AU9 installation manual http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/Slimline_Dish_Installation_Manual.pdf, and also watch the install video (segment 3 of http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp and also http://retailer.directv.com/dws/content/TRN_Slimline_backassembly_20107.wmv ). Some of this is for the older AT9 5-lnb dish but the principles still apply.

By adjusting the azimuth and elevation fine tuning you should be able to improve your 103c signals so they are in the high 80s/90s. You should find that this improves your 101/119 signals also. If everything is set up correctly you should find your 99c signals improve significantly.


----------



## dhhaines

petergaryr said:


> For the benefit of new visitors, here is a a job aid for postings concerning D11:
> 
> *If channels light up on 7/30*: post the following type comments:
> 
> "I can't believe we waited this long for these channels"
> "I switched from [name of carrier] to DirecTV for _this_?"
> "How come [name of channel] isn't turned on??"
> 
> *If channels do not light up on 7/30*: post the following type comments:
> 
> "Well, DirecTV lied to us again."
> "I can't believe they missed another deadline."
> "More broken promises."
> 
> Please do not post anything that would indicate you understand how much of an effort goes into launching, testing and broadcasting from a satellite. Also, ignore any official DirecTV documents that refer to September as the time to expect new channels.


Great.... 

Now they won't even have to type.... just cut and paste.


----------



## Sixto

Nothing new FCC-wise today:SAT-00540: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284056A1.pdf

SAT-00541: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1737A1.pdf​


----------



## katzeye

texasbrit said:


> If 101 and 103(c) are good, 99(c) should be good also.


Hmmm, My 101 and 103 signals are great(Mid 90's), but I have been getting consistent high 70's-mid 80's on my 99(c)


----------



## sadude39

I am still concerned about my 99(a) readings. All week they have been around 30 on odd transponders and 60 on even transponders. Very little if any fluctuation over time. My 103 signals have always been in the 70's. From readings I see here in this forum, I am way off and appear to need a realignment. I know when I had my slimline installed 2 years ago, it was geared towards the 101 satellite, since at that time there was no Directv 10 launched yet. Is it too early for me to call and get someone out here to realign my dish? Or just wait and see if my numbers change once the 99(a) becomes operational with programming?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

sadude39 said:


> I am still concerned about my 99(a) readings. All week they have been around 30 on odd transponders and 60 on even transponders. Very little if any fluctuation over time. My 103 signals have always been in the 70's. From readings I see here in this forum, I am way off and appear to need a realignment. I know when I had my slimline installed 2 years ago, it was geared towards the 101 satellite, since at that time there was no Directv 10 launched yet. Is it too early for me to call and get someone out here to realign my dish? Or just wait and see if my numbers change once the 99(a) becomes operational with programming?


More so with those 103 readings, and potentially the 99 readings..it does, in fact, appear that you may want to think about getting the alignment.


----------



## Alan Gordon

petergaryr said:


> For the benefit of new visitors, here is a a job aid for postings concerning D11:


You forgot:

"There's nothing in HD on this channel"
"Great, another 'S T R E T C H - O - V I S I O N' channel"
"Where's the Voom channels?" 
"When's my HD-LIL going to be available?"

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who will soon be starting a petition to ban mgtr from this site!


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Nothing new FCC-wise today:SAT-00540: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-284056A1.pdf
> 
> SAT-00541: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-1737A1.pdf​


What does that mean, Sixto?


----------



## Alan Gordon

syphix said:


> What does that mean, Sixto?


I believe he's referring to the fact that there is no information about DirecTV's D11 transmission plans yet.

~Alan


----------



## syphix

Does something need to be filed with the FCC when they plan to turn D11 "live"?


----------



## swans

Alan Gordon said:


> "When's my HD-LIL going to be available?"


Couldn't have said it better!


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Does something need to be filed with the FCC when they plan to turn D11 "live"?


No, D11 is all set.

No news is good news.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> No, D11 is all set.
> 
> No news is good news.


Good. Cool.

Great weather for us here this weekend + D11 still not lit up = golfing. 

Now, NEXT weekend...I hope it rains!


----------



## Doug Brott

DodgerKing said:


> Does smiddy really know something or does he just happen to have good psychic abilities?


Actually, I think both are true .. however .. In this case, I'm not sure that it applies


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, I think both are true .. however .. In this case, I'm not sure that it applies


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What a "Kissinger" statement that was....


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> No, D11 is all set.
> 
> No news is good news.


Oh! I could have sworn that in the past, DirecTV would ask permission (once the satellite was in place) from the FCC to broadcast from it?

I know it's just a formality, but I could have sworn they did this.

Am I mixed up, or have they already received this and I missed it?

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> Oh! I could have sworn that in the past, DirecTV would ask permission (once the satellite was in place) from the FCC to broadcast from it?
> 
> I know it's just a formality, but I could have sworn they did this.
> 
> Am I mixed up, or have they already received this and I missed it?
> 
> ~Alan


I think you are correct. A formality, but a necessary one.


----------



## crawdad62

Newbie here. What exactly does all this mean? I'm referring to signal readings on 99c? I checked mine and the lowest reading I got was 88 and I believe the highest was 97. Are you saying that some people that are getting perfectly acceptable signals now (now meaning channels that are received not just satellite signals on a test screen) might not when the new satellite goes "live?"

Obviously I haven't been here long enough to read through this whole thread  but wouldn't it be safe to say any new channels that go out will be HD channels? I don't see the benefit of increasing capacity to carry SD broadcasting. 

Anyway just curious on what's going on.


----------



## smiddy

Doug Brott said:


> Actually, I think both are true .. however .. In this case, I'm not sure that it applies


Now that is an interesting statement...it depends on what IT is. :hurah:

I can't wait until next Wednesday...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

crawdad62 said:


> Newbie here. What exactly does all this mean? I'm referring to signal readings on 99c? I checked mine and the lowest reading I got was 88 and I believe the highest was 97. Are you saying that some people that are getting perfectly acceptable signals now (now meaning channels that are received not just satellite signals on a test screen) might not when the new satellite goes "live?"
> 
> Obviously I haven't been here long enough to read through this whole thread  but wouldn't it be safe to say any new channels that go out will be HD channels? I don't see the benefit of increasing capacity to carry SD broadcasting.
> 
> Anyway just curious on what's going on.


:welcome_s

It all means that (based on your signal levels in your post), you are well positioned to sit back and relax for the day DirecTV turns on more new HD Channels. The satellite is still undergoing various testing.

Many of us here are anticipating/speculating as to when we will see the first signs of new HD Channels...and yes....the new ones should all be in HD


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> Oh! I could have sworn that in the past, DirecTV would ask permission (once the satellite was in place) from the FCC to broadcast from it?
> 
> I know it's just a formality, but I could have sworn they did this.
> 
> Am I mixed up, or have they already received this and I missed it?
> 
> ~Alan


I'm not aware of anything else DirecTV needs to do, but I need to go back and double-check.

They already have approval to transmit from 99.225."On March 19, 2008, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, Inc.'s request for modification for the DIRECTV 11 satellite. Accordingly, DIRECTV is authorized to relocate the DIRECTV 11 satellite from the 99.200° W.L. orbital location to the 99.225º W.L. orbital location and to operate at that location in the Ka-band (18.3-18.8/19.7-20.2 GHz (Downlink) and 28.35-28.60/29.25-30.00 GHz (Uplink)). This authorization is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in the application, the attachment to the grant, and the Commission's rules."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-608A1.pdf​I do not remember anything else for D10.

They did need approval for the "special" D11 testing but they already have approval for 99.225.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Thanks Sixto...that means we are now in "wait and see" mode for new HD.


----------



## nj1313

We're almost there...July 30th here we come!


----------



## nj1313

#6000!!!!!


----------



## crawdad62

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :welcome_s
> 
> It all means that (based on your signal levels in your post), you are well positioned to sit back and relax for the day DirecTV turns on more new HD Channels. The satellite is still undergoing various testing.
> 
> Many of us here are anticipating/speculating as to when we will see the first signs of new HD Channels...*and yes....the new ones should all be in HD*


Well that's good new! Glad to be here BTW.


----------



## man_rob

smiddy said:


> Now that is an interesting statement...it depends on what IT is. :hurah:
> 
> I can't wait until next Wednesday...


4 days and a wake-up until new HD!!!


----------



## VARTV

VaJim said:


> Thanks....I had not seen this.
> 
> fall 2008..? Not soon enough.


Wouldn't December 19th be considered Fall???


----------



## bakers12

VARTV said:


> Wouldn't December 19th be considered Fall???


Party-pooper!


----------



## Doug Brott

nj1313 said:


> #6000!!!!!


I could make that not true, you know


----------



## davring

Doug Brott said:


> I could make that not true, you know


You would be run out of Dodge


----------



## ddobson

Alan Gordon said:


> Oh! I could have sworn that in the past, DirecTV would ask permission (once the satellite was in place) from the FCC to broadcast from it?
> 
> I know it's just a formality, but I could have sworn they did this.
> 
> Am I mixed up, or have they already received this and I missed it?
> 
> ~Alan


Since the transponders are already active (i.e. we all have signal strength and quality), technically they are broadcasting. So they hopefully already have that permission.


----------



## baker60

First post. I'm impressed with the knowledge of everyone in this forum. Have been following it for months. Have (3) H21-200 receivers with 99(a) readings of 89-96. I understand that is good. Which 103 readings are D10 on the H21 receivers.


----------



## Cobra

maybe I missed something about the h-20 receivers, but my hr21-200 I have awesome readings from the new sat, but my h20-100 shows all 0's is that normal? sorry if this has been covered and I missed it


----------



## Tom Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> nj1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> #6000!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I could make that not true, you know
Click to expand...

With all the VERY off topic posts, I'm quite likely to make it not true. Sorry.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

Some one let me know when it's officialy parked (not wobbling), I need to tweak my dish yet


----------



## petergaryr

Alan Gordon said:


> You forgot:
> 
> "There's nothing in HD on this channel"
> "Great, another 'S T R E T C H - O - V I S I O N' channel"
> "Where's the Voom channels?"
> "When's my HD-LIL going to be available?"
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who will soon be starting a petition to ban mgtr from this site!


Yes, of course, how could I have forgotten the old standards. :lol:


----------



## jodyguercio

baker60 said:


> First post. I'm impressed with the knowledge of everyone in this forum. Have been following it for months. Have (3) H21-200 receivers with 99(a) readings of 89-96. I understand that is good. Which 103 readings are D10 on the H21 receivers.


Baker I believe that the conus reading would be on 103(a) and the spot beams would be on 103(b).

:welcome_s


----------



## jodyguercio

Cobra said:


> maybe I missed something about the h-20 receivers, but my hr21-200 I have awesome readings from the new sat, but my h20-100 shows all 0's is that normal? sorry if this has been covered and I missed it


No that is not normal, have you tried to reset via the menu?


----------



## woj027

One more try.


OK, So we have a huge list of potential channels that can light up in the very near future. 

Where are they going to go? As in, what channel numbers are they going to be mapped to?

DirecTv took the time to tell us all our RSN's were moving around, but what about these new channels? Wouldn't DirecTV have moved some channels around by now to fit the new ones in?

**I made this same post in Smiddy's "National HD Channels NOT Carried Currently " thread****


----------



## FHSPSU67

Cobra said:


> maybe I missed something about the h-20 receivers, but my hr21-200 I have awesome readings from the new sat, but my h20-100 shows all 0's is that normal? sorry if this has been covered and I missed it


Sent you a PM.


----------



## dhhaines

woj027 said:


> One more try.
> 
> OK, So we have a huge list of potential channels that can light up in the very near future.
> 
> Where are they going to go? As in, what channel numbers are they going to be mapped to?
> 
> DirecTv took the time to tell us all our RSN's were moving around, but what about these new channels? Wouldn't DirecTV have moved some channels around by now to fit the new ones in?
> 
> **I made this same post in Smiddy's "National HD Channels NOT Carried Currently " thread****


 From what I gather there won't be any "new" HD channels per say. Just HD versions of the SD channels we have. Which means the will have the same channel numbers.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.:sure:


----------



## Tom Robertson

woj027 said:


> One more try.
> 
> OK, So we have a huge list of potential channels that can light up in the very near future.
> 
> Where are they going to go? As in, what channel numbers are they going to be mapped to?
> 
> DirecTv took the time to tell us all our RSN's were moving around, but what about these new channels? Wouldn't DirecTV have moved some channels around by now to fit the new ones in?
> 
> **I made this same post in Smiddy's "National HD Channels NOT Carried Currently " thread****


DIRECTV will most likely continue the same scheme they have used for HD todate:
1) if a mirror of an existing SD channel, the new channel will be the same number.
2) if an almost mirror of an existing SD channel, but not quite identical programming all the time, it will be SD channel followed by a DASH 1
3) if a HD channel with no SD counterpart, they will most likely find a channel number as close as possible to a proper grouping. The new Starz channels went this way.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

dhhaines said:


> From what I gather there won't be any "new" HD channels per say. Just HD versions of the SD channels we have. Which means the will have the same channel numbers.
> 
> Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.:sure:


I could see some premium channels, from HBO for instance, that might not have an SD counterpart.

But I truly do not know if that is going to happen or not.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## woj027

Thanks. 

As far as I can tell and remember HBO stops at 509 and Stars starts at 512. if we add the NEW HBO's from Smiddy's list they would fill 510 and 511. I just wasn't sure what would happen if any of the channels were going to be squeezed in between others.

maybe i'm just too worried about the new channels.


----------



## jodyguercio

woj027 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> As far as I can tell and remember HBO stops at 509 and Stars starts at 512. if we add the NEW HBO's from Smiddy's list they would fill 510 and 511. I just wasn't sure what would happen if any of the channels were going to be squeezed in between others.
> 
> maybe i'm just too worried about the new channels.


I think 510 and 511 are being used by HBO right now..


----------



## Herdfan

woj027 said:


> As far as I can tell and remember HBO stops at 509 and Stars starts at 512. if we add the NEW HBO's from Smiddy's list they would fill 510 and 511. I just wasn't sure what would happen if any of the channels were going to be squeezed in between others..


509 is the old HBOHD mirror, so it is available. 511 is HBOL, so unless they move it to the hispanic channel area, 509 and 510 are the only ones available.


----------



## baker60

jodyguercio said:


> Baker I believe that the conus reading would be on 103(a) and the spot beams would be on 103(b).
> 
> :welcome_s


Thanks, That explains some of the "0" readings on the spot beams and the "92" and up on the conus 103(a). Thanks again.


----------



## Curtis0620

Herdfan said:


> 509 is the old HBOHD mirror, so it is available. 511 is HBOL, so unless they move it to the hispanic channel area, 509 and 510 are the only ones available.


HBO Comedy and HBO Zone will fit in there nicely.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> I could see some premium channels, from HBO for instance, that might not have an SD counterpart.
> 
> But I truly do not know if that is going to happen or not.


I mentioned in another thread that Hallmark Movie Channel is supposed (last I heard) to be added in SD and HD... and I'm going to assume at the same time, but it's possible that the HD could be added before the other.

Currently, DirecTV broadcasts the West Coast HD-DNS on seperate numbers from their SD counterparts (why?), so I would expect the East Coast HD-DNS to be mirrored in MPEG4 (YAY!!) the same way(?). In other words:

CBS-SD East (380)
CBS-HD East (390)

I believe around the time that DirecTV 10 lit up, there was a listing of HDNet Movies in the 250s (which makes sense given the movies area), but the 250s are full right now.... so I'm not sure WHERE HDNet and HDNet Movies will be moving to.

All the other MPEG2 HD channels are already mapped to their SD counterparts or seperate (259/281).

~Alan


----------



## rey_1178

wow! has there ever been a larger thread than this one? impressive! :grin: by the way has directv ever added a channel on a different day than wed?


----------



## DarinC

Tom Robertson said:


> DIRECTV will most likely continue the same scheme they have used for HD todate ...


And what about the (reliably) rumored mirroring of legacy HD in MPEG4? Is it safe to assume those would keep the same upper channel numbers they are on now (so change the upper channel numbers from being a mirror of the lower channel numbers, to being a separate MPEG4 transmission)? If so, I guess someone like me, who doesn't have LOS to 110/119, will know when those channels switch from a MPEG2 guide duplication to a separate MPEG4 transmission.


----------



## doctor j

Cobra said:


> maybe I missed something about the h-20 receivers, but my hr21-200 I have awesome readings from the new sat, but my h20-100 shows all 0's is that normal? sorry if this has been covered and I missed it


I have a H20-100 with all 0's on all Ka sats yet all authorized channels are coming in fine.
Nationals, LIL's and Sports Ch's.
What software version are you on.
I'm on a CE 4090 ,I think, and just attributed it to new software .
Older versions the signal strenghts worked.

Doctor j


----------



## Alan Gordon

ddobson said:


> Since the transponders are already active (i.e. we all have signal strength and quality), technically they are broadcasting. So they hopefully already have that permission.


I'm not crazy, and I'm not making stuff up (though I could be mixed up), but I remember some application asking for permission (after they're parked, but before they start offering customers service from that satellite) to broadcast.

~Alan


----------



## FHSPSU67

doctor j said:


> I have a H20-100 with all 0's on all Ka sats yet all authorized channels are coming in fine.
> Nationals, LIL's and Sports Ch's.
> What software version are you on.
> I'm on a CE 4090 ,I think, and just attributed it to new software .
> Older versions the signal strenghts worked.
> 
> Doctor j


Same situation here w/ 0x4090.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm not crazy, and I'm not making stuff up (though I could be mixed up), but I remember some application asking for permission (after they're parked, but before they start offering customers service from that satellite) to broadcast.
> 
> ~Alan


I think, "though [you] could be mixed up", that you might be thinking of some requests to slightly modify the final orbital slot a tiny bit. I think that is all done; they have all the need for full HD ahead.

Woohooga! Full HD Ahead!
Aye, Cap'n, Full HD Ahead!

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

rey_1178 said:


> wow! has there ever been a larger thread than this one? impressive! :grin: by the way has directv ever added a channel on a different day than wed?


I _think_ one of the channels added to D10 had a hiccup and was added on Thursday instead of on Wednesday along with the rest of that batch.


----------



## nj1313

LameLefty said:


> I _think_ one of the channels added to D10 had a hiccup and was added on Thursday instead of on Wednesday along with the rest of that batch.


From my recollection, there were some channels that were added on a Monday back in October 2007.


----------



## Steve Robertson

rey_1178 said:


> wow! has there ever been a larger thread than this one? impressive! :grin: by the way has directv ever added a channel on a different day than wed?


Yup this one http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=838060

Keep in mind this is the continuation of the original thread that had over 1 million hits.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> I think, "though [you] could be mixed up", that you might be thinking of some requests to slightly modify the final orbital slot a tiny bit. I think that is all done; they have all the need for full HD ahead.


Not what I was thinking of, but I'll drop the subject since it's not important! 

~Alan


----------



## wmj5

I have a H20-100 and a couple of days ago I was't getting anything on 99a, I just checked it and I am getting 81 and up in the high 90's, on 99b only get tp 1-81 and tp 5 80, so they must be going to do something. upstate south carolina.


----------



## Alan Gordon

nj1313 said:


> From my recollection, there were some channels that were added on a Monday back in October 2007.


MHD was added on a Thursday.
A collection on a Monday (10-15-2007)
NBA HD on a Monday.
CSTV HD and Tennis Channel HD on a Friday.

Of course, years ago, they were all willy nilly. Some were added on a Saturday! 

~Alan


----------



## I WANT MORE

Woohooga! Full HD Ahead!
Aye said:


> Roger, Go with throttle up.


----------



## VaJim

VARTV said:


> Wouldn't December 19th be considered Fall???


...yes...knowing our area (largest metro no DTV HD..largest metro no pro sports)


----------



## Tom Robertson

VaJim said:


> ...yes...knowing our area (largest metro no DTV HD..largest metro no pro sports)


Move to Green Bay. They have awesome HD and fantastic pro sports.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Tom Robertson said:


> Move to Green Bay. They have awesome HD and fantastic pro sports.


 But the don't have brett Favre anylonger...so its just OK pro sports


----------



## Tom Robertson

MIAMI1683 said:


> But the don't have brett Favre anylonger...so its just OK pro sports


Don't go to the chatroom now or tonight...


----------



## DodgerKing

Alan Gordon said:


> I mentioned in another thread that Hallmark Movie Channel is supposed (last I heard) to be added in SD and HD... and I'm going to assume at the same time, but it's possible that the HD could be added before the other.
> ~Alan


Which is probably why they moved TVland???


----------



## Alan Gordon

DodgerKing said:


> Which is probably why they moved TVland???


Well, I don't know.

If you look at where TV Land was... there's now a string of kid/tween/teen channels, so I think it has more to do with that than any thing else.

I don't know WHERE HMC will go?!

~Alan<~~~~~~Who knows he is off-topic....


----------



## VaJim

Tom Robertson said:


> Move to Green Bay. They have awesome HD and fantastic pro sports.


...and freeze?

no thanks


----------



## hdtvfan0001

VaJim said:


> ...and freeze?
> 
> no thanks


But its a dry cold... 

You can even get a good signal up there....seen it in person.


----------



## kw2957

DodgerKing said:


> Which is probably why they moved TVland???


I also happened to notice, going ahead in the guide, that on Ch. 301 where it says "TV Land has moved to Ch. 304", the message changes to "To Be Announced" on Weds. morning at 6am ET!!! Could this be a D11 sign? Only time will tell.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

kw2957 said:


> I also happened to notice, going ahead in the guide, that on Ch. 301 where it says "TV Land has moved to Ch. 304", the message changes to "To Be Announced" on Weds. morning at 6am ET!!! Could this be a D11 sign? Only time will tell.


There are a bunch of those changes underway (as announced some time ago).

Yes, it is the beginning of work being done to re-arrange things with D11 now in place.

More to come...including more HD channels.


----------



## kw2957

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There are a bunch of those changes underway (as announced some time ago).
> 
> Yes, it is the beginning of work being done to re-arrange things with D11 now in place.
> 
> More to come...including more HD channels.


So, do you think that the guide message changing on Wednesday at 6am has anything to do with D11, or is this purely coincidental??


----------



## Pop72&9

kw2957 said:


> So, do you think that the guide message changing on Wednesday at 6am has anything to do with D11, or is this purely coincidental??[/QUOTE
> I believe HDTVFAN is pulling on our sat dish just a bit.


----------



## harsh

paulman182 said:


> Does that mean my HR20s are really Tivos?


That means that the best HR20s are as good as any TiVo. Unfortunately, there are a lot of HR2x that are less than the best to their masters.


----------



## henryld

harsh said:


> That means that the best HR20s are as good as any TiVo. Unfortunately, there are a lot of HR2x that are less than the best to their masters.


Wrong thread but until we get DLB's I respectfully disagree with your first assertion.


----------



## tuff bob

henryld said:


> Wrong thread but until we get DLB's I respectfully disagree with your first assertion.


Half a DLB, half a DVR


----------



## Sixto

Per the question of when HD has been added:


Code:


(a) 10 - old MPEG2(Ku) (prior to      9/26/2007)
(b) 21 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  9/26/2007)
(c) 11 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/ 3/2007)
(d)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 10/ 4/2007)
(e)  4 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/10/2007) 
(f) 18 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/15/2007)
(g)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/17/2007) 
(h)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 10/26/2007)
(i)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/29/2007) 
(j)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/31/2007) 
(k) 30 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/14/2007) 
(l)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/28/2007) 
(m)  7 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 12/ 5/2007) 
(n)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 12/20/2007)
(o)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 12/28/2007)
(p)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  1/23/2008) 
(q)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon  3/31/2008) 
(r)  3 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  4/ 2/2008) 
(s)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri  4/ 4/2008) 
(t)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched     ~4/16/2008) 
(?)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched      ?/ ?/????)

All details in the other thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## JayPSU

Sixto said:


> Per the question of when HD has been added:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> (a) 10 - old MPEG2(Ku) (prior to      9/26/2007)
> (b) 21 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  9/26/2007)
> (c) 11 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/ 3/2007)
> (d)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 10/ 4/2007)
> (e)  4 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/10/2007)
> (f) 18 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/15/2007)
> (g)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/17/2007)
> (h)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 10/26/2007)
> (i)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/29/2007)
> (j)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/31/2007)
> (k) 30 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/14/2007)
> (l)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/28/2007)
> (m)  7 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 12/ 5/2007)
> (n)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 12/20/2007)
> (o)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 12/28/2007)
> (p)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  1/23/2008)
> (q)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon  3/31/2008)
> (r)  3 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  4/ 2/2008)
> (s)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri  4/ 4/2008)
> (t)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched     ~4/16/2008)
> (?)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched      ?/ ?/????)
> 
> All details in the other thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


One large festivus on a Monday (10/15/07). Is that a possibility?


----------



## Sixto

JayPSU said:


> One large festivus on a Monday (10/15/07). Is that a possibility?


Yep. 

3 of 4 were on a Wed ...


----------



## Jeremy W

JayPSU said:


> One large festivus on a Monday (10/15/07). Is that a possibility?


I feel like a lot of the channels listed as being added on that Monday are listed incorrectly. I could have sworn that FSN Detroit, for example, was launched on 9/26/2007.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> I feel like a lot of the channels listed as being added on that Monday are listed incorrectly. I could have sworn that FSN Detroit, for example, was launched on 9/26/2007.


Yee of little faith 

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1214813&postcount=2


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Yee of little faith


It was a long time ago! :lol:


----------



## rey_1178

Sixto said:


> Per the question of when HD has been added:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> (a) 10 - old MPEG2(Ku) (prior to      9/26/2007)
> (b) 21 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  9/26/2007)
> (c) 11 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/ 3/2007)
> (d)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 10/ 4/2007)
> (e)  4 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/10/2007)
> (f) 18 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/15/2007)
> (g)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/17/2007)
> (h)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 10/26/2007)
> (i)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon 10/29/2007)
> (j)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 10/31/2007)
> (k) 30 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/14/2007)
> (l)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 11/28/2007)
> (m)  7 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed 12/ 5/2007)
> (n)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Thu 12/20/2007)
> (o)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri 12/28/2007)
> (p)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  1/23/2008)
> (q)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Mon  3/31/2008)
> (r)  3 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Wed  4/ 2/2008)
> (s)  1 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched Fri  4/ 4/2008)
> (t)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched     ~4/16/2008)
> (?)  2 - D10 MPEG4(Ka) (launched      ?/ ?/????)
> 
> All details in the other thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


so according to this list we should see some new hd tonight


----------



## DodgerKing

Jeremy W said:


> It was a long time ago! :lol:


In a galaxy far far away!


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> so according to this list we should see some new hd tonight


That would be Saturday. If Friday, it would have been this morning.


----------



## rey_1178

DodgerKing said:


> That would be Saturday. If Friday, it would have been this morning.


hay it's morning somewhere right?


----------



## DodgerKing

rey_1178 said:


> hay it's morning somewhere right?


In a galaxy far far away...


----------



## Smthkd

Just a thought but shouldn't a mod change the title of this thread to "Parked" now instead of nearly?!!!


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> Just a thought but shouldn't a mod change the title of this thread to "Parked" now instead of nearly?!!!


We actually do not yet have a TLE that officially shows "parked".

Waiting.


----------



## Jason78

purtman said:


> First of all, welcome to the site. I have good news and bad news. The 99(s) is a spot beam. You won't get signals on all of them so your readings are good. That's the good news. The bad news is you're in Youngstown, OH. LOL!!! Just kidding. Hope this helps.


Thanks man! Good joke too! :lol:


----------



## purtman

VARTV said:


> Wouldn't December 19th be considered Fall???


Yes, but the ads have been saying "over 130 HD channels this summer".


----------



## smiddy

purtman said:


> Yes, but the ads have been saying "over 130 HD channels this summer".


...summer ends when?


----------



## purtman

smiddy said:


> ...summer ends when?


Here in Kansas City, it seems like it ends in December. It's too freakin' hot. After moving from New England nearly four years ago, we're waiting for our first winter.

I hope summer ends next Wednesday.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> ...summer ends when?


September 22nd at 11 something PM EST


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> September 22nd at 11 something PM EST


No need to worry. I'm guessin that it will be very warm and summery when we hit 130 HD channels ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> No need to worry. I'm guessin that it will be very warm and summery when we hit 130 HD channels ...


My take as well...but someone asked....


----------



## Sixto

The guy producing the D11 TLE's fell asleep (in a deep coma) ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> The guy producing the D11 TLE's fell asleep (in a deep coma) ...


Or else he's busy doing something else... 

Move....that.....bus.....


----------



## P Smith

Today lucky numbers for Net#10 (D11):

9320 9321 9315 9323 9324 9325 9327 9328 9329 9330 9331 9333 9338 9339 9341 9342 9344 9346 9347 9348 9349 9350 9352 9353 9354 9355 9357 9358 9359 9360 9363 9366 9369 9370 9374 9376 9314 9316 9318 9319

Total: 40.


----------



## Steve615

Thanks for the update.It looks like Engineering is still quite busy testing channels. 



P Smith said:


> Today lucky numbers for Net#10 (D11):
> 
> 9320 9321 9315 9323 9324 9325 9327 9328 9329 9330 9331 9333 9338 9339 9341 9342 9344 9346 9347 9348 9349 9350 9352 9353 9354 9355 9357 9358 9359 9360 9363 9366 9369 9370 9374 9376 9314 9316 9318 9319
> 
> Total: 40.


----------



## Jeremy W

Steve615 said:


> It looks like Engineering is still quite busy testing channels.


They need to be ready by 6am Eastern on Wednesday!


----------



## geagles

D* is testing their Sat., I'm testing my receiver. Time for two to marry up and get life started, then wait for a little D12 to come along. Until then I will be watching, and once again, waiting, reading, anticipating, guessing. Guess at my age it gives me something to do other than play my old 45rpm wax. lol.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> They need to be ready by 6am Eastern on Wednesday!


Or so it has been rumored.


----------



## DodgerKing

P Smith said:


> After one hour parsing by hands got this table:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 9314 TEST PPV 2/Occ 11 		PPV 2/Occ 11 (D11) 	tv:test9314.ch
> 9316 TEST PPV 5/Occ 8 		PPV 5/Occ 8 (D11) 	tv:test9315.ch
> 9318 TEST 						tv:hdt9318.ch
> 9319 TEST 			HD Net (D11) 		tv:hdnet.ch
> 9320 TEST 						tv:hdnetmv.ch
> 9321 TEST 						tv:famhd.ch
> 9315 TEST TNT HD		TNT HD (D11) 		tv:tnthd9315.ch
> 9323 TEST ESPN HD		ESPN HD (D11) 		tv:espnhd9323.ch
> 9324 TEST 						tv:foxhdrm9324.ch
> 9325 TEST DNS ABCW HD 		DNS ABCW HD (D11) 	tv:kabcdt.ch
> 9327 TEST 			FSN Pittsburgh HD (D11) tv:fsphd9327.ch
> 9328 TEST 						tv:foxhdss.ch
> 9329 TEST 			FSN North HD (D11) 	tv:fxhdno2.ch
> 9330 TEST 			FSN Arizona HD (D11) 	tv:foxhdaz9330.ch
> 9331 TEST 			FSN Midwest HD (D11) 	tv:fsnhdmw9331.ch
> 9333 TEST MSG			MSG HD (D11) 		tv:msghd9333.ch
> 9338 TEST SAC MNT 		SAC MNT (D11) 		tv:kqcadt9338.ch
> 9339 TEST 			HBO HD East (D11) 	tv:hbohd9339.ch
> 9341 TEST 			FSN Northwest HD (D11) 	tv:fsn9341.ch
> 9342 TEST ESPN2 HD 		ESPN2 HD (D11) 		tv:espn2hd9342.ch
> 9344 TEST 						tv:show9344.ch
> 9346 TEST 						tv:sunnet.ch
> 9347 TEST DNS NBCE 		DNS NBCE HD (D11) 	tv:wnbcdt9347.ch
> 9348 TEST DNS FOXE HD 		DNS FOXE HD (D11) 	tv:wnywdt9348.ch
> 9349 TEST DNS ABCE HD 		DNS ABCE HD (D11) 	tv:wabcdt9349.ch
> 9350 TEST DNS CBSE HD 		DNS CBSE HD (D11) 	tv:wcbsdt9350.ch
> 9352 TEST 			FSN Ohio HD (D11) 	tv:fsohhd9352.ch
> 9353 TEST DNS FOXW HD 		DNS FOXW HD (D11) 	tv:kabcdt9353.ch
> 9354 TEST 						tv:uhd9354.ch
> 9355 TEST 			FSN Florida HD (D11) 	tv:fsnflhd9355.ch
> 9357 TEST PPV 4/Occ 9		PPV 4/Occ 9 (D11) 	tv:test9357.ch
> 9358 TEST PPV13/Occ13 		PPV13/Occ13 (D11) 	tv:test9358.ch
> 9359 TEST PPV14/Occ14 		PPV14/Occ14 (D11) 	tv:test9359.ch
> 9360 TEST PPV15/Occ15 		PPV15/Occ15 (D11) 	tv:test9360.ch
> 9363 TEST 						tv:fsnoh29363.ch
> 9366 TEST DNS NBCW HD 		DNS NBCW HD (D11) 	tv:knbcdt.ch
> 9369 TEST DNS CBSW HD 		DNS CBSW HD (D11) 	tv:kcbsdt9369.ch
> 9370 TEST 			FSN South HD (D11) 	tv:fso9370.ch
> 9374 TEST 						tv:toondhd.ch
> 9376 TEST HD PUSH 		PUSH HD (D11) 		tv:test9376.ch


With this it appears that next week will mainly be mpeg2 conversions and RSN full time conversions. The only new channels listed are ABCFamily and Push.


----------



## RAD

DodgerKing said:


> With this it appears that next week will mainly be mpeg2 conversions and RSN full time conversions. The only new channels listed are ABCFamily and Push.


Or it was just easier for them in their hardware setup to just use some existing channels for testing and the compare the current D10 vs. D11 signals.


----------



## bwaldron

DodgerKing said:


> With this it appears that next week will mainly be mpeg2 conversions and RSN full time conversions.


I wouldn't say that...especially as at least some of the RSNs listed don't even exist as 24/7 channels yet. We shouldn't read too much into things at this point.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bwaldron said:


> I wouldn't say that...especially as at least some of the RSNs listed don't even exist as 24/7 channels yet. We shouldn't read too much into things at this point.


+1


----------



## miller24

Let's go WGN!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I think the one thing that has gone somewhat understated in all this is just how smoothly the launch, deployment, and preparation for activation of D11 have all gone.

We tend to take these things for granted, and there is alot that can go wrong (but hasn't with D11)....just ask the Dish folks. :eek2: 

In any case, it looks like we are inside of 30 or less days before we start seeing some new HD LIL's and new National HD channels launched. My...how we've come a long way from 5 HD channels to where we are now.


----------



## philherz

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We tend to take these things for granted, and there is alot that can go wrong (but hasn't with D11)....just ask the Dish folks. :eek2:


New to this topic...what happened to the Dish folks???


----------



## Sirshagg

philherz said:


> New to this topic...what happened to the Dish folks???


A few months ago a dish launch failed.


----------



## purtman

What is "Push"?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

purtman said:


> What is "Push"?




Huh? Can you be more specific on your question?


----------



## Sixto

purtman said:


> What is "Push"?


"Push" is most likely Movie's Now.


----------



## purtman

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Huh? Can you be more specific on your question?


"Push" was listed in the HD channel list above. Sixto responded, but thanks anyways. Thanks, Sixto.


----------



## smiddy

I assume no new TLE...right?! Man...I wish they'd update more frequently.


----------



## dcowboy7

Sixto said:


> "Push" is most likely Movie's Now.





purtman said:


> What is "Push"?


i thought its a lamaze channel. :hurah:


----------



## Sirshagg

dcowboy7 said:


> i thought its a lamaze channel. :hurah:


Do we _really_ need that in HD?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> I assume no new TLE...right?! Man...I wish they'd update more frequently.


Yep. No new TLE. Been many updates for D10 and E11. Nothing for D11.


----------



## Sixto

Just a thought ...

Based on the D11 channel data in the other thread, starting to re-think the rollout schedule.

Maybe we get both dates. 7/30 and 8/13 (the original big rollout date).

On the first date, they light up 40 channels of bandwidth on D11. The 9 legacy HD, 2 new channels (Fox News, ABC Family), the 8 MPEG4 DNS's, a couple of D10 channels (MSG, ToonDisney), 1 Movie's Now, 6 PPV HD from D10, and 12 new full-time RSN's.

This would start the move, balance the bandwidth, and keep DirecTV ahead of DISH.

Then on the 2nd date, they add all the new cool stuff (HBO and other premiums!).

Just a thought ...


----------



## Azdeadwood

Sixto said:


> Just a thought ...
> 
> Based on the D11 channel data in the other thread, starting to re-think the rollout schedule.
> 
> Maybe we get both dates. 7/30 and 8/13 (the original big rollout date).
> 
> On the first date, they light up 40 channels of bandwidth on D11. The 9 legacy HD, 2 new channels (Fox News, ABC Family), the 8 MPEG4 DNS's, a couple of D10 channels (MSG, ToonDisney), 1 Movie's Now, 6 PPV HD from D10, and 12 new full-time RSN's.
> 
> This would start the move, balance the bandwidth, and keep DirecTV ahead of DISH.
> 
> Then on the 2nd date, they add all the new cool stuff (HBO and other premiums!).
> 
> Just a thought ...


And MAYBE I will win the Lottery today!

Who knows? - Directv knows and they aren't saying.


----------



## katzeye

Sixto said:


> Just a thought ...
> 
> Based on the D11 channel data in the other thread, starting to re-think the rollout schedule.
> 
> Maybe we get both dates. 7/30 and 8/13 (the original big rollout date).
> 
> On the first date, they light up 40 channels of bandwidth on D11. The 9 legacy HD, 2 new channels (Fox News, ABC Family), the 8 MPEG4 DNS's, a couple of D10 channels (MSG, ToonDisney), 1 Movie's Now, 6 PPV HD from D10, and 12 new full-time RSN's.
> 
> This would start the move, balance the bandwidth, and keep DirecTV ahead of DISH.
> 
> Then on the 2nd date, they add all the new cool stuff (HBO and other premiums!).
> 
> Just a thought ...


Why would they use up so much bandwidth of D11 with channels that are already on D10? Is there a need to balance the load? Wouldn't the bandwidth on taken off of D10 be taken by new channels eventually?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Just a thought ...


The readings P Smith got, as well as the details on the specificc channels would certainly support your theory....which is more solid than any speculation.


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The readings P Smith got, as well as the details on the specificc channels would certainly support your theory....which is more solid than any speculation.


Yep, the theory is based totally on P Smith's wonderful new data.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Yep, the theory is based totally on P Smith's wonderful new data.


But it makes more sense than anything else to date.


----------



## Sixto

katzeye said:


> Why would they use up so much bandwidth of D11 with channels that are already on D10? Is there a need to balance the load? Wouldn't the bandwidth on taken off of D10 be taken by new channels eventually?


The 9 legacy in MPEG4 is new bandwidth.

The 2 new HD channels are new.

The 12 part-time RSN's to full-time RSN's is new. Currently sharing somewhat with PPVHD on D10.

The 8 MPEG4 Ka DNS's are new.

The other 9 may be to free up some space on D10 for other channels that better belong on D10 or maybe just to balance bandwidth for picture quality.


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> Just a thought ...
> 
> Based on the D11 channel data in the other thread, starting to re-think the rollout schedule.
> 
> Maybe we get both dates. 7/30 and 8/13 (the original big rollout date).
> 
> On the first date, they light up 40 channels of bandwidth on D11. The 9 legacy HD, 2 new channels (Fox News, ABC Family), the 8 MPEG4 DNS's, a couple of D10 channels (MSG, ToonDisney), 1 Movie's Now, 6 PPV HD from D10, and 12 new full-time RSN's.
> 
> This would start the move, balance the bandwidth, and keep DirecTV ahead of DISH.
> 
> Then on the 2nd date, they add all the new cool stuff (HBO and other premiums!).
> 
> Just a thought ...


But the thing is, even if they don't add anything at all, they are still ahead of Dish if both providers used the same counting criteria.


----------



## purtman

dcowboy7 said:


> i thought its a lamaze channel. :hurah:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> The 9 legacy in MPEG4 is new bandwidth.
> 
> The 2 new HD channels are new.
> 
> The 12 part-time RSN's to full-time RSN's is new. Currently sharing somewhat with PPVHD on D10.
> 
> The 8 MPEG4 Ka DNS's are new.
> 
> The other 9 may be to free up some space on D10 for other channels that better belong on D10 or maybe just to balance bandwidth for picture quality.


And we've always thought two D10 national transponders (10+ channels) will be turned off to revert back to the original plan of 14 national. Reuse the frequencies for LIL HD.

Later ... out in the real HD today ...


----------



## harsh

smiddy said:


> I assume no new TLE...right?! Man...I wish they'd update more frequently.


No new TLE. It is coming due though as they're typically issued every 4-6 days. D10 seems to get updated every three days (unless something else is going on).


----------



## OlderNDirt

Just wondering based on recent posts:

Being in the Lincoln, NE, DMA, I was watching the 99s signal meters for levels that might indicate locals going live when D11 goes live. Seeing nothing there (yet at least), I happened to check sisgnals on 103s and am showing strong signals (95-100 on 5 transponders, a 77 on one transponder, and 0's on the remaining 10 non-N/A transponders). I hope this is a good sign for locals really soon (there's that nasty word again) from the Lincoln DMA on D*.

Based on Sixto's post, might this also indicate the movement of nationals from D10 so the room opened up for more locals from there?


----------



## Alan Gordon

OlderNDirt said:


> Just wondering based on recent posts:
> 
> Being in the Lincoln, NE, DMA, I was watching the 99s signal meters for levels that might indicate locals going live when D11 goes live. Seeing nothing there (yet at least), I happened to check sisgnals on 103s and am showing strong signals (95-100 on 5 transponders, a 77 on one transponder, and 0's on the remaining 10 non-N/A transponders). I hope this is a good sign for locals really soon (there's that nasty word again) from the Lincoln DMA on D*.
> 
> Based on Sixto's post, might this also indicate the movement of nationals from D10 so the room opened up for more locals from there?


I believe I'm having the same thing happening to me... check my post here.

~Alan


----------



## rey_1178

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think the one thing that has gone somewhat understated in all this is just how smoothly the launch, deployment, and preparation for activation of D11 have all gone.
> 
> We tend to take these things for granted, and there is alot that can go wrong (but hasn't with D11)....just ask the Dish folks. :eek2:
> 
> In any case, it looks like we are inside of 30 or less days before we start seeing some new HD LIL's and new National HD channels launched. My...how we've come a long way from 5 HD channels to where we are now.


agreed! congratulations to D on what looks like a flawless launch of a new satellite. :goodjob:


----------



## Jeremy W

katzeye said:


> Why would they use up so much bandwidth of D11 with channels that are already on D10? Is there a need to balance the load?


It is believed that D10 is currently using transponders that were meant to be spares to bring us all of the HD channels we have now. Obviously, DirecTV wants to have those spares back to being actual spares ASAP, so this intial balancing will probably allow that to happen.


----------



## Paul A

Are we there yet?

I really cant wait much longer.


----------



## uncrules

I for one will be disappointed if all we get out of D11 is replication of existing channels and the conversion of part time RSNs to full time. While E* adds a bunch of new HD premiums channels, it doesn't seem like D* is going to add a lot of new channels. I'll wait to see actually comes before I pass final judgment but I don't like how it looks right now. I'm underwhelmed.


----------



## syphix

uncrules said:


> I for one will be disappointed if all we get out of D11 is replication of existing channels and the conversion of part time RSNs to full time. While E* adds a bunch of new HD premiums channels, it doesn't seem like D* is going to add a lot of new channels. I'll wait to see actually comes before I pass final judgment but I don't like how it looks right now. I'm underwhelmed.


Calm down, grasshopper...we'll get there. We always knew that D11 could first light up legacy MPEG2 HD's and make part time RSN's full time. We'll get there...MANY more HD's are on the way with D11.

And remember: DirecTV's original statement of when D11 was to go "live" was SEPTEMBER. We weren't "promised" anything earlier. Anything prior to that is just gravy.


----------



## P Smith

I would say counting TEST channels and forecast different things.
We don't know why DTV pickup the channels, could be just for _testing_ purpose.
I understand all ppl itching for share own thoughts, but so far all future assignments are pure speculation with a uncertain base on the current signals, better say on APG data.


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> Calm down, grasshopper...we'll get there. We always knew that D11 could first light up legacy MPEG2 HD's and make part time RSN's full time. We'll get there...MANY more HD's are on the way with D11.
> 
> And remember: DirecTV's original statement of when D11 was to go "live" was SEPTEMBER. We weren't "promised" anything earlier. Anything prior to that is just gravy.


Yes, I strongly urge patience. rewards will come, and remember, Happiness Runs.


----------



## purtman

P Smith said:


> I would say counting TEST channels and forecast different things.
> We don't know why DTV pickup the channels, could be just for _testing_ purpose.
> I understand all ppl itching for share own thoughts, but so far all future assignments are pure speculation with a uncertain base on the current signals, better say on APG data.


Remember we had some channels that showed up on the test channels (NHL Channel was one) and others that weren't on the test list that showed up on D-Day. 
I would agree with P Smith. It's all speculation at this point.


----------



## Alan Gordon

uncrules said:


> I for one will be disappointed if all we get out of D11 is replication of existing channels and the conversion of part time RSNs to full time. While E* adds a bunch of new HD premiums channels, it doesn't seem like D* is going to add a lot of new channels. I'll wait to see actually comes before I pass final judgment but I don't like how it looks right now. I'm underwhelmed.


To each their own. Of the HD channels out there, ABC Family is the only one I'm really missing. I will look forward to having Hallmark Movie Channel as well as having AMC-HD for "Mad Men"... though I have yet to watch S1 on Blu-ray yet... so I may just wait and catch S2 on Blu-ray as well.

However, I'd LOVE for increased picture quality on some of the MPEG2 HD channels (HDNet Movies, UniversalHD, etc...) as well as the ability to fit more on my HR20 (the above channels plus ABC-HD East, CBS-HD East, and HDNet).

Other than that, my HD-LIL (as well as SD-LIL, sorta), which I'm not holding my breath for (DMA #146), and a CW HD-DNS feed would be the only other excitement for me!

~Alan


----------



## harsh

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think the one thing that has gone somewhat understated in all this is just how smoothly the launch, deployment, and preparation for activation of D11 have all gone.


Given about half the gestation period of a human baby, you would think that not too many feathers would have be ruffled.

As for the overall smoothness, we really don't know what did or didn't happen aside from "systems nominal".


----------



## lovswr

Paul A said:


> Are we there yet?
> 
> I really cant wait much longer.


_Aaanticpa-a-ation! It's making me waaaiit!_

Ok all you 4 err... I mean 40 year old plus kids! Don't make me turn this car around!


----------



## uncrules

syphix said:


> Calm down, grasshopper...we'll get there. We always knew that D11 could first light up legacy MPEG2 HD's and make part time RSN's full time. We'll get there...MANY more HD's are on the way with D11.
> 
> And remember: DirecTV's original statement of when D11 was to go "live" was SEPTEMBER. We weren't "promised" anything earlier. Anything prior to that is just gravy.


I understand that, but if one assumes there are 70 HD channels that can be put on D11 (14 transponders with 5 channels each) they would've already used 40 of that 70 and only added two non RSN national HD channels.

If you look a smiddy's list of available HD channels (excluding Voom because I don't think D* will ever carry them) there are 25 available. Only two of those (ABC Family and Fox News) are in the initial list that P Smith gave us. So the remaining 23 would fill up 30 of the remaining spots.

We know that more HD channels are on the way. ESPNU and eight Showtime channels are coming in August. Encore isn't on Smiddy's list but it is suppose to be available soon. Chiller HD is coming later this year too. That's at least 11 more coming that I know about.

11 + 23 is greater than 30. There are some channels that won't make the cut. I'd rather see D* drop some of the HD PPVs and not convert so many part time RSNs to full time and give us more of the national HD channels instead.

Edit to remove Hallmark from my future list. It was already part of Smiddy's list I referenced.


----------



## uncrules

Alan Gordon said:


> To each their own. Of the HD channels out there, ABC Family is the only one I'm really missing. I will look forward to having Hallmark Movie Channel as well as having AMC-HD for "Mad Men"... though I have yet to watch S1 on Blu-ray yet... so I may just wait and catch S2 on Blu-ray as well.
> 
> However, I'd LOVE for increased picture quality on some of the MPEG2 HD channels (HDNet Movies, UniversalHD, etc...) as well as the ability to fit more on my HR20 (the above channels plus ABC-HD East, CBS-HD East, and HDNet).
> 
> Other than that, my HD-LIL (as well as SD-LIL, sorta), which I'm not holding my breath for (DMA #146), and a CW HD-DNS feed would be the only other excitement for me!
> 
> ~Alan


I like the conversion of the MPEG2 channel to MPEG4. I want better PQ on those channels too. But I get all of the premium movies channels so they matter to me more than RSNs


----------



## syphix

I think HD channel launches are happening a bit faster than any cable or satellite provider anticipated. Everyone and their mother want to launch an HD version of their channel, suddenly!

That said, DirecTV is the HD leader...and they are poised to remain the HD leader for some time (D12 is set to launch in 2009, adding _another_ 50+ HD nationals and 100's of HD-LiL's). Dish's XI is almost parked and lit (some say by early September!), so the race is on...and we, the consumer, are the winners. DirecTV is the place to be for HD. 'nuff said.


----------



## P Smith

Sixto, do you recall from your digging thru TLEs, what difference in altitude of satellite allow it to travel between GSO slots with speed 0.5/1.0/2.0 degree per day ?
It should be around 50...100 km by my quick math, but I'd like to hear real numbers.

Or LameLefty could show his orbital mechanics computation skills .


----------



## P Smith

syphix said:


> I think HD channel launches are happening a bit faster than any cable or satellite provider anticipated. Everyone and their mother want to launch an HD version of their channel, suddenly!
> 
> That said, DirecTV is the HD leader...and they are poised to remain the HD leader for some time (D12 is set to launch in 2009, adding _another_ 50+ HD nationals and 100's of HD-LiL's). Dish's XI is almost parked and lit (some say by early September!), so the race is on...and we, the consumer, are the winners. DirecTV is the place to be for HD. 'nuff said.


You forgot to mention it will agile crippy economics now - more HD channels, more expensive HDTV sets, more electronic components, more plastic manufacturing, and so on.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Sixto, do you recall from your digging thru TLEs, what difference in altitude of satellite allow it to travel between GSO slots with speed 0.5/1.0/2.0 degree per day ?
> It should be around 50...100 km by my quick math, but I'd like to hear real numbers.
> 
> Or LameLefty could show his orbital mechanics computation skills .


I COULD do the math but I'm giving myself the weekend off! My head hurts from all the hubbub. :grin:


----------



## P Smith

LameLefty said:


> I COULD do the math but I'm giving myself the weekend off! My head hurts from all the hubbub. :grin:


OK, I can wait for Monday.


----------



## Alan Gordon

uncrules said:


> I like the conversion of the MPEG2 channel to MPEG4. I want better PQ on those channels too. But I get all of the premium movies channels so they matter to me more than RSNs


I get none of the premium movie channels and I'm not really a sports guy, and most of the other channels (with the exception of the VOOM channels) available have VERY little HD content on them... not that I watch most of them much anyway.

I believe that the Cinemax package needs to be rounded out a lot more, but other than that, the other premium channels are so repetitive that it shouldn't matter a whole lot (if you have an HD DVR anyway).

~Alan


----------



## TheRatPatrol

uncrules said:


> eight Showtime channels are coming in August. Encore isn't on Smiddy's list but it is suppose to be available soon.


I wonder if we'll see a rearrangement of the movie channels (like we did with the sports channels) to make room for all these new HD channels?


----------



## 2wheels4me

Regarding transmissions of HD content stations, I haven't seen much discussion of bringing on local PBS and/or the major east coast/west coast PBS stations. All I think everyone currently gets its SD. If I understand (as a noob) the each area's locals would be spot-beamed and perhaps big coastal stations nationally transponded via CONUS???? 

Sixto - any prognosis?


----------



## dogs31

syphix said:


> Calm down, grasshopper...we'll get there. We always knew that D11 could first light up legacy MPEG2 HD's and make part time RSN's full time. We'll get there...MANY more HD's are on the way with D11.
> 
> And remember: DirecTV's original statement of when D11 was to go "live" was SEPTEMBER. We weren't "promised" anything earlier. Anything prior to that is just gravy.


I think that has been bumped up to next week. D10 went live in September.


----------



## Christopher Gould

uncrules said:


> I understand that, but if one assumes there are 70 HD channels that can be put on D11 (14 transponders with 5 channels each) they would've already used 40 of that 70 and only added two non RSN national HD channels.
> 
> If you look a smiddy's list of available HD channels (excluding Voom because I don't think D* will ever carry them) there are 25 available. Only two of those (ABC Family and Fox News) are in the initial list that P Smith gave us. So the remaining 23 would fill up 30 of the remaining spots.
> 
> We know that more HD channels are on the way. ESPNU and eight Showtime channels are coming in August. Encore isn't on Smiddy's list but it is suppose to be available soon. Chiller HD is coming later this year too. That's at least 11 more coming that I know about.
> 
> 11 + 23 is greater than 30. There are some channels that won't make the cut. I'd rather see D* drop some of the HD PPVs and not convert so many part time RSNs to full time and give us more of the national HD channels instead.
> 
> Edit to remove Hallmark from my future list. It was already part of Smiddy's list I referenced.


don't forget that between D10 ans D11 they can do up to150 national channels, i haven't been keeping track of how many each has right now. then D12 is suppose to add another 50 national channels


----------



## Alan Gordon

Christopher Gould said:


> don't forget that between D10 ans D11 they can do up to150 national channels, i haven't been keeping track of how many each has right now. then D12 is suppose to add another 50 national channels


Actually, last I heard, D10 and D11 was downgraded to 130 channels. Perhaps to open up more spot beams on D11 to make up for D10's bad ones?

~Alan


----------



## petergaryr

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, last I heard, D10 and D11 was downgraded to 130 channels. Perhaps to open up more spot beams on D11 to make up for D10's bad ones?
> 
> ~Alan


Can't you just hear someone complaining that there are _only_ 130 to watch???!!

These days I barely have time to keep up with the shows I recorded on the maybe 10 channels I typically watch.


----------



## mbuser

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, last I heard, D10 and D11 was downgraded to 130 channels. Perhaps to open up more spot beams on D11 to make up for D10's bad ones?
> 
> ~Alan


You sure about that? DirecTV has stated plans to have 130 HD channels by the end of this year. I don't believe that means it's all they can carry, just all they anticipate having carriage agreements for.


----------



## Alan Gordon

petergaryr said:


> Can't you just hear someone complaining that there are _only_ 130 to watch???!!


Oh yeah, definately!

"When is DirecTV going to add the World Poker Channel HD? Dish already has it!"

Seriously though, DirecTV could have placeholders (upconverted channels like MTV/VH1) for just about EVERY single SD channel they offer as well as an option of picking up the token HD-only channel every now and then until D12 gets up.

~Alan


----------



## FHSPSU67

dogs31 said:


> I think that has been bumped up to next week. D10 went live in September.


Not officially - Directv has said nothing as far as moving it up, but most people here believe certainly in the next 2 weeks. Most probably Wednesday, July 30.


----------



## curt8403

calculation 
130 channels to watch
24 hrs per day
calculates out to 11 minutes per channel and no repeats per day
I think that is more than enough for any viewer


----------



## DarinC

curt8403 said:


> I think that is more than enough for any viewer


I think over 90% of what I would actually watch is already available in HD via DirecTV now. Out of everything in the list of HD channels not yet carried by DirecTV, the only things I would expect to ever watch are: The Travel Channel, the extra HBO channels, and IFC. I am MUCH more interested in getting the legacy HD channels moved to D11 than I am about any new channels. Personally, I would rather they DIDN'T try to cram too much in. But of course, everyone likes something different.


----------



## harsh

TLE #130:

DIRECTV 11
1 32729U 08013A 08208.33440185 -.00000126 00000-0 00000+0 0 1307
2 32729 000.0079 078.7853 0001824 059.1979 187.5777 01.00313326 1400

Drifting towards 99.11 (still edging in the wrong direction).
Eccentricity is up a tiny bit.

Time stamp is 8:01:32 Zulu Saturday.


----------



## harsh

curt8403 said:


> 130 channels to watch


This requires that you subscribe to premiere and HD Extra. Anything less and your available channels drop off fast.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> This requires that you subscribe to premiere and HD Extra. Anything less and your available channels drop off fast.


Not only that, but you actually have to subscribe to DirecTV.


----------



## curt8403

DarinC said:


> Not only that, but you actually have to subscribe to DirecTV.


Lets back off on Harsh a bit please. he is trying to be helpful, and I count it good that he is on friendly terms with Directv.


----------



## Sixto

Latest TLE from above ... just catching up on thread ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE130)
1 32729U 08013A   08208.33440185 -.00000126  00000-0  00000+0 0  1307
2 32729 000.0079 078.7853 0001824 059.1979 187.5777 01.00313326  1400

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		07-26-2008 08:01:32
Orbit # at Epoch	140
Inclination		0.008
RA of A. Node		78.785
Eccentricity		0.0001824
Argument of Perigee	59.198
Revs per day		1.00313326
Period			23h 55m 30s (1435.50 min)
Semi-major axis		42 153 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 767 x 35 783 km
Element number / age	130 / 0 day(s)

Lon			99.2116° W
Lat			0.0248° S
Alt (km)		35 782.090

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35 767 x 35 783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35 778 x 35 794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)
TLE#127(07-10-2008 12:13:58) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+25.1 hours,at 112.8 days, 100.72°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## Dolly

DarinC said:


> Not only that, but you actually have to subscribe to DirecTV.


+1 !rolling Someone throw the dog a bone so it will run back to the Dish site  Back on topic--do we really think D*
will have D11 go live in July? When this whole subject started about when D11 would go live D* at first said late 3rd quarter. I don't consider the end of July as late 3rd quarter myself.


----------



## curt8403

Dolly said:


> +1 !rolling Someone throw the dog a bone so it will run back to the Dish site  Back on topic--do we really think D*
> will have D11 go live in July? When this whole subject started about when D11 would go live D* at first said late 3rd quarter. I don't consider the end of July as late 3rd quarter myself.


for shame. would you rather have Harsh Bashing Directv???


----------



## cartrivision

DarinC said:


> Not only that, but you actually have to subscribe to DirecTV.


I think that Harsh has a point... to take his logic one step further, for non-subscribers DirecTV effectively has zero HD channels. I guess that makes DISH the HD leader. :lol:


----------



## cartrivision

curt8403 said:


> Lets back off on Harsh a bit please. he is trying to be helpful, and I count it good that he is on friendly terms with Directv.


I'm not sure how pointing out that you don't get certain HD channels if you don't subscribe to them is "helpful". It's just dumb.


----------



## n3ntj

mbuser said:


> You sure about that? DirecTV has stated plans to have 130 HD channels by the end of this year. I don't believe that means it's all they can carry, just all they anticipate having carriage agreements for.


Actually, the D* ad that Joe Buck read said "By the end of summer."


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Mods,

Any chance we can create a locked thread that folks could subscribe to that Sixto could use to provide a general status (daily/weekly or as things change)?

This discussion thread is AWESOME, it's just difficult to find "an update" when something changes.

Yes, no, maybe so?

I just think it be cool so when new channels light up, Sixto (or a mod) can post to the locked thread and I can get an email if I wish.  Kinda like the CE announcement thread.

My 2 cents for what they're worth.


----------



## evan_s

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, last I heard, D10 and D11 was downgraded to 130 channels. Perhaps to open up more spot beams on D11 to make up for D10's bad ones?
> 
> ~Alan


130 channels was promised this summer that doesn't how ever mean that D10 and D11 can't and won't still deliver 150 channels by the end of the year. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. In fact it's the exact opposite in that they support each other. 130 stations this summer is a stepping stone to 150 by the end of the year.


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> I think he was just trying to say that you will not get all the HD without subscribing to the entire package.


A point that is obvious to anyone with enough brain cells to subscribe to DirecTV. He was simply bashing DirecTV, something he does (with varying amounts of subtlety) in every post he makes in the DirecTV forums. I see no reason to defend him.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Radio Enginerd said:


> This discussion thread is AWESOME, it's just difficult to find "an update" when something changes..


The first post of the thread is updated with the "important" updates! 

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

uhm second post.


----------



## syphix

However you look at it, going from 10 to 100-150 HD channels in about 400 days is awesome! Hell, the SIRIUS/XM merger took longer!!


----------



## bwaldron

syphix said:


> Hell, the SIRIUS/XM merger took longer!!


Through no fault of the two companies.


----------



## Alan Gordon

evan_s said:


> 130 channels was promised this summer that doesn't how ever mean that D10 and D11 can't and won't still deliver 150 channels by the end of the year. The two statements are not mutually exclusive. In fact it's the exact opposite in that they support each other. 130 stations this summer is a stepping stone to 150 by the end of the year.


I have read 130 "total" in several places, but it's EXTREMELY possible that THEY were confused by the 130 this Summer.

~Alan


----------



## purtman

When Joe Buck mentioned it during the MLB All-Star game, he said "over" 130 HD channels. Then again, he can't pronounce Xavier Nady's first name either.


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> Not only that, but you actually have to subscribe to DirecTV.


Unthinkable!


----------



## Sixto

It's nice to see a well run professional organization just go about their business ...

It's obvious that D11 could have been "live" within weeks. Just look as E11. Instead, DirecTV took the long-term view and conserved fuel, to benefit D11 and DirecTV customer's long-term. (This isn't a knock on DISH, it's just the path that DirecTV choose).

Then they could have gone directly to 99.4, tested quick, and went "live" Nop, again, they decided to take the long-term view, and spent a considerable amount of time (a month!) testing the future BSS capabilities.

So now they're finally at 99.2 and they could just throw the switch on massive HD but it looks like they're continuing to take the pragmatic approach:

1) You need the 8 DNS HD channels in MPEG4. The NY 4 will go directly to Ka MPEG4 (within some transition period), and the LA 4 first went thru a Ku MPEG4 transition (to help the MDU's) and now they'll go Ka MPEG4.

2) The 9 legacy MPEG2 need to go Ka MPEG4. Looks like they're up right now in test mode, will go "live" shortly, and they'll also be some transition simulcast period. All good stuff.

3) There are currently 35+ part-time RSN's on D10 and during games they need to shut down PPV HD. Well, it looks like about 12 will be converted to full-time and now PPV HD can be full-time 24x7.

4) There were two transponders on D10 (17 & 22) that were not part of the original national HD plan. They were put into play when D11 got delayed. That's 10 channels of bandwidth and it took away from HD LIL which can now be replicated dozens of times thru spotbeams across America. So now they move those 10 channels (or so) to D11.

5) They're starting to roll-out "Movie's Now". Nice to see a full time HD feed on D11.

6) There were a couple of channels that were supposed to be available a while ago. Looks like Fox News and ABC Family might finally be here next week.

So all of the above is housekeeping. Legacy MPEG2 transitions. D10/D11 balancing. MPEG4 DNS, couple new channels ...

Once it's all done, maybe next Wednesday, then they can look for the big-bang a week or two later with the new HBO's or Showtimes's or lots more HD stuff.

All just a natural well-designed progression ...

Now, some folks may take shots at this, but personally it's nice to follow the professionally progress of a leader ... and it all makes logical sense ...

They'll be lots more cool HD soon but you gotta have the basics in place first ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

Please, let us return this discussion to D11. This is not a discussion of members here, their programming or video providers.

:backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

To clarify the ads, Upto 150 nationals supported by D10/D11 is a superset of upto 130 channels by the end of the summer. They are not mutually exclusive. 

(and big numbers either way.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> He was simply bashing DirecTV, something he does (with varying amounts of subtlety) in every post he makes in the DirecTV forums.


You have a fatal flaw of automatically assuming that everything I say is a dig at DIRECTV. My statement was a caveat to those who are reading these claims of big numbers that they will get significantly less HD channels than most have been throwing numbers around seem to have suggested. On average, they will get less than one third the 130 national HD channels by subscribing to HD Access. Here's a detail of the channel count by package:

Family Package: 9 national HD channels
Choice: 32 national HD channels
Choice Extra 35 national HD channels

Note: These counts don't include multiple feeds of BTN, PPV nor VOD.

That's not a dig -- it is a head's up for those who may not be as familiar with how it all works.


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Instead, DirecTV took the long-term view and conserved fuel, to benefit D11 and DirecTV customer's long-term.


As I offered earlier, this may be necessary due to tighter station keeping tolerances of a Ka spotbeam sporting satellite. It would be interesting to know if Boeing's projections about fuel consumption are holding true for D10 given that it gets a bump every three days.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> As I offered earlier, this may be necessary due to tighter station keeping tolerances of a Ka spotbeam sporting satellite. It would be interesting to know if Boeing's projections about fuel consumption are holding true for D10 given that it gets a bump every three days.


From the Boeing Xips info, I actually think it gets bumped even more often. As in several times a day in tiny, tiny amounts.

Those bumps don't accumulate into enough difference against the current TLE that we only get new TLEs every three or four days.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## uncrules

Sixto said:


> 1) You need the 8 DNS HD channels in MPEG4. The NY 4 will go directly to Ka MPEG4 (within some transition period), and the LA 4 first went thru a Ku MPEG4 transition (to help the MDU's) and now they'll go Ka MPEG4.


I know Lyngsat isn't always accurate, but according to them the west coast HD DNS are already KA on D10.

http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/dtv10.html

If they aren't on D10, then what satellite are they on?


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> From the Boeing Xips info, I actually think it gets bumped even more often. As in several times a day in tiny, tiny amounts.
> 
> Those bumps don't accumulate into enough difference against the current TLE that we only get new TLEs every three or four days.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


do all those tiny tiny bumps use tiny tiny amounts of fuel?


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> do all those tiny tiny bumps use tiny tiny amounts of fuel?


Yes with tiny, tiny amounts of electricity to heat the fuel to bump strength.


----------



## Sixto

Anybody know if there's a limit to the size of a post?

Trying to update post#2 with the latest from today and getting weird results. Thinking maybe the post is getting too big.


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes with tiny, tiny amounts of electricity to heat the fuel to bump strength.


so the fuel tanks are being sucked dry one molecule at a time? :lol: does not bode well for the life of the satellite unless Boeing and Directv knew that it would take constant course corrections.


----------



## cartrivision

harsh said:


> As I offered earlier, this may be necessary due to tighter station keeping tolerances of a Ka spotbeam sporting satellite. It would be interesting to know if Boeing's projections about fuel consumption are holding true for D10 given that it gets a bump every three days.


Given that even after letting D11 drift quite a bit off its exact parking spot (according to a very recent TLE), the signal levels coming from D11 haven't dropped noticeably, your theory doesn't seem to be a good one.

As of this morning's TLE, D11 was off-station by more than the Ku satellites are allowed to drift, so there is no evidence of a necessity of tighter station keeping requirements for the Ka sats than are used for the other sats.


----------



## Christopher Gould

curt8403 said:


> so the fuel tanks are being sucked dry one molecule at a time? :lol: does not bode well for the life of the satellite unless Boeing and Directv knew that it would take constant course corrections.


yes thet know thats why the satellite has a design life, the solar panels making juice and the fuel tanks, normal 10 to 15 years.


----------



## curt8403

Christopher Gould said:


> yes thet know thats why the satellite has a design life, the solar panels making juice and the fuel tanks, normal 10 to 15 years.


well that is better than trying to use a Maxwell's Demon Engine to adjust the orbit.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sixto said:


> Anybody know if there's a limit to the size of a post?
> 
> Trying to update post#2 with the latest from today and getting weird results. Thinking maybe the post is getting too big.


Yes, there is a limit. I've copied your post, #2 in this thread 2 times, becoming posts #3 and #4 in the thread. You can now break up the data however you'd like for current, archive, etc. type posts.

I suggest using titles on the three to help everyone as well.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, there is a limit. I've copied your post, #2 in this thread 2 times, becoming posts #3 and #4 in the thread. You can now break up the data however you'd like for current, archive, etc. type posts.
> 
> I suggest using titles on the three to help everyone as well.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Perfect. Thanks!


----------



## Tom Robertson

curt8403 said:


> so the fuel tanks are being sucked dry one molecule at a time? :lol: does not bode well for the life of the satellite unless Boeing and Directv knew that it would take constant course corrections.


I'm thinking that after having done this for a few years now, Boeing, DIRECTV, and Loral (D8 and D9's manufacturer) have a small idea of the life of a satellite and the course corrections necessary. 

Methinks that the whole purpose of the XIPs technology was to have a lighter, more reliable, and perhaps smaller package on board for ongoing daily nudges so they could have more transponders for us.   

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

uncrules said:


> I know Lyngsat isn't always accurate, but according to them the west coast HD DNS are already KA on D10.
> 
> http://www.lyngsat.com/hd/dtv10.html
> 
> If they aren't on D10, then what satellite are they on?


The MPEG4 versions of the West Coast HD DNS feeds were on D10 until the day when they shut off the MPEG2 feeds. They then moved the MPEG4 feeds to 119 (or a mixture of 110 and 119?) and then added the Disney-HD, ESPNNews HD, and Toon Disney-HD to D10.

The reason (other than adding a few HD channels) for the move to 119 was to give MDUs who didn't have the SlimLine installed a little more time.

~Alan


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm thinking that after having done this for a few years now, Boeing, DIRECTV, and Loral (D8 and D9's manufacturer) have a small idea of the life of a satellite and the course corrections necessary.
> 
> Methinks that the whole purpose of the XIPs technology was to have a lighter, more reliable, and perhaps smaller package on board for ongoing daily nudges so they could have more transponders for us.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I am thinking "To the Stars by Hard Ways", but "To the Stairs by Hard Ways" seems more reasonable. Ad Astria per absurdia


----------



## uncrules

Alan Gordon said:


> The MPEG4 versions of the West Coast HD DNS feeds were on D10 until the day when they shut off the MPEG2 feeds. They then moved the MPEG4 feeds to 119 (or a mixture of 110 and 119?) and then added the Disney-HD, ESPNNews HD, and Toon Disney-HD to D10.
> 
> The reason (other than adding a few HD channels) for the move to 119 was to give MDUs who didn't have the SlimLine installed a little more time.
> 
> ~Alan


Thank you.


----------



## jeffwltrs

386 ABC NY is on! Is this coming from D-11?


----------



## ziltomil

Sixto said:


> It's obvious that D11 could have been "live" within weeks. Just look as E11. Instead, DirecTV took the long-term view *and conserved fuel*, to benefit D11 and DirecTV customer's long-term. (This isn't a knock on DISH, it's just the path that DirecTV choose).


That idea doesn't have merit. 
When D11 launched it had a 250kmx36000km orbit, then they increased it to 400x41000km. They intentionally overshot the desired alt by ~5000km. What actually happened is that directv used more fuel to get D11 parked later, about more than 100m/s dv.


----------



## DodgerKing

ziltomil said:


> That idea doesn't have merit.
> When D11 launched it had a 250kmx36000km orbit, then they increased it to 400x41000km. They intentionally overshot the desired alt by ~5000km. What actually happened is that directv used more fuel to get D11 parked later, about more than 100m/s dv.


The maneuvers were necessary for the testing in several locations. Doing it the way they did it saved fuel. If one wants the bird to drift west, then they simply increase the orbital radius. This saves more fuel than actually pushing west. They could have rushed it and used a lot of fuel to push it west and then east again.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ziltomil said:


> That idea doesn't have merit.
> When D11 launched it had a 250kmx36000km orbit, then they increased it to 400x41000km. They intentionally overshot the desired alt by ~5000km. What actually happened is that directv used more fuel to get D11 parked later, about more than 100m/s dv.


Gravity wells are marvelous things...


----------



## P Smith

Sixto, I would remark to one technical aspect - the shapes of D11 tpns are not in spec; they need to narrow each one or/and tune filters to prevent cross interference.


----------



## ziltomil

DodgerKing said:


> The maneuvers were necessary for the testing in several locations. Doing it the way they did it saved fuel. If one wants the bird to drift west, then they simply increase the orbital radius. This saves more fuel than actually pushing west. They could have rushed it and used a lot of fuel to push it west and then east again.


I think you are referring something other than I am. I talking about them using more fuel to get to geo-orbit, while you seem to think standard orbital maneuvers to change station once in geo is an example of them saving fuel.


Tom Robertson said:


> Gravity wells are marvelous things...


Are you referring to the Oberth effect?


----------



## Tom Robertson

ziltomil said:


> I think you are referring something other than I am. I talking about them using more fuel to get to geo-orbit, while you seem to think standard orbital maneuvers to change station once in geo is an example of them saving fuel.
> 
> Are you referring to the Oberth effect?


:lol: Can you tell me, I don't know. I'd have to search to be sure. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Those bumps don't accumulate into enough difference against the current TLE that we only get new TLEs every three or four days.


My postulate is is a pet theory. I wondered why D10 had such a high TLE update frequency compared with other satellites. We won't know for a while whether it is the case or not, but it is more interesting than speculating substantially without basis on when D11 will go online.


----------



## syphix

I'm thinking of starting a poll...

WHICH DO YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING:

A) WATCHING HDTV

B) WATCHING THIS THREAD/FORUM FOR D11 UPDATES?


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> I'm thinking of starting a poll...
> 
> WHICH DO YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING:
> 
> A) WATCHING HDTV
> 
> B) WATCHING THIS THREAD/FORUM FOR D11 UPDATES?


Be sure to add a category of watching HD whilst pressing F5


----------



## Radio Enginerd

curt8403 said:


> uhm second post.


Yeah, I got that, but you can't subscribe to this thread and have it email when something is changed because every time someone posts anything you'd get an email. It completely defeats the purpose.


----------



## Tom Robertson

There is a subscription thread for new HD, that will be updated when channels are sighted.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tiger62

Tom Robertson said:


> There is a subscription thread for new HD, that will be updated when channels are sighted.


And just where might this new thread be located?


----------



## John4924

If I read Sixto's first posting about what will be on D11, for me, this only means 2 "new" channels, Foxnews HD, and ABC Family HD. The other bit about moving legacy channels, permanent RSN's [I don't subscribe to any sports packages], moving the national network channels, etc., have no bearing on what I receive.

So is all of this excitement over 2 "new" channels? Or am I missing something
here, and there are more "new" channels on the way?

Thanks and cheers,
John


----------



## Ed Campbell

What it means for the next few weeks [as some of us hope] your description is correct. A tidying up and transfer to better technology all round. An important step for the geeks in this crowd.

Then - my guess - as the new seasons are ready to start, the new channels are introduced. the only wild card being introductions associated with the Olympics.


----------



## Azdeadwood

syphix said:


> I'm thinking of starting a poll...
> 
> WHICH DO YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING:
> 
> A) WATCHING HDTV
> 
> B) WATCHING THIS THREAD/FORUM FOR D11 UPDATES?


B

Of course I'm sure many of us have a similar setup: A dual monitor/HD TV on my computer that lets me read this thread and watch HD TV at the same time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

John4924 said:


> If I read Sixto's first posting about what will be on D11, for me, this only means 2 "new" channels, Foxnews HD, and ABC Family HD. The other bit about moving legacy channels, permanent RSN's [I don't subscribe to any sports packages], moving the national network channels, etc., have no bearing on what I receive.
> 
> So is all of this excitement over 2 "new" channels? Or am I missing something
> here, and there are more "new" channels on the way?
> 
> Thanks and cheers,
> John


That's "phase 1" speculation, if you will.

Just like with D10, they will roll things out over several phases/groupings most likely....as opposed to just lighting up a bunch of channels all at once.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> Be sure to add a category of watching HD whilst pressing F5


Old Chinese secret......


----------



## arxaw

Tiger62 said:


> And just where might this new thread be located?


In DirecTV Programming & Services.


----------



## Tiger62

arxaw said:


> In DirecTV Programming & Services.


Oh. Well, that certainly narrows it down!


----------



## davemayo

Tiger62 said:


> Oh. Well, that certainly narrows it down!


It likely will be a sticky at the top of the page. Like this one.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=97211

Shouldn't be hard to find.


----------



## I WANT MORE

Can anyone tell me what may be on transponders 17 and 19 on the 103 spot beam? I have not noticed these before and don't believe that I have been receiving anything via spot beam in my area. I now have 90s on these two.


----------



## texasbrit

I WANT MORE said:


> Can anyone tell me what may be on transponders 17 and 19 on the 103 spot beam? I have not noticed these before and don't believe that I have been receiving anything via spot beam in my area. I now have 90s on these two.


TP17 you will always have had. TP19 is a spotbeam from DirecTV10 carrying HD locals for someone. It's not possible to know whose HD locals they are.


----------



## Sixto

A new TLE update ... TLE# 131 ... exact same timestamp as #130 (yesterday) ... very, very close to parked ... and the TLE is still a day old:


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE131)
1 32729U 08013A   08208.33440185 -.00000120  00000-0  00000+0 0  1312
2 32729 000.0189 098.1133 0001844 143.9569 083.4746 01.00271444  1402

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B][SIZE="3"]07-26-2008 08:01:32[/SIZE][/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	140
Inclination		0.019
RA of A. Node		98.113
Eccentricity		0.0001844
Argument of Perigee	143.957
Revs per day		1.00271444
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B][SIZE="3"]35 779 x 35 794 km[/SIZE][/B]
Element number / age	131 / 1 day(s)

Lon			[SIZE="3"][B]99.2039° W[/B][/SIZE]
Lat			0.0303° S
Alt (km)		35 785.280

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35,778 x 35,794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)
TLE#129(07-11-2008 10:11:30) 35,784 x 35,790 km (+22.0 hours,at 113.7 days, 100.73°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## DodgerKing

Sixto said:


> A new TLE update ... TLE# 131 ... exact same timestamp as #130 (yesterday) ... very, very close to parked ... and the TLE is still a day old:


Which tells us that the TLE's are not always accurate.


----------



## LameLefty

DodgerKing said:


> Which tells us that the TLE's are not always accurate.


A TLE is generated after a series of observations over time - for orbits that so very close to GSO already, each observation will give data that varies only a tiny bit from the previous set of data. So after two or three or however many teeny tiny changes in position/velocity/altitude, etc., an automated system will integrate the data and spit out a TLE. Of course, given that tiny little changes are being made all day long to work the "almost GSO" orbit into one that is "really GSO", the data points that are being taken to integrate into a TLE are almost automatically a little bit wrong. But given that the changes are really small, the current and target orbits are very close to one another, and that the satellite GNC (guidance, navigation and control) knows where it is itself, the little inaccuracies don't matter to anyone but us chickens here on this thread.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

So D11 may indeed be parked at this moment...he just doesn't know it (yet) officially.  

In any case....solid signal levels here again today, and just awaiting the new HD, as are a few couple of Million other folks. :lol:


----------



## raoul5788

Alan Gordon said:


> The MPEG4 versions of the West Coast HD DNS feeds were on D10 until the day when they shut off the MPEG2 feeds. They then moved the MPEG4 feeds to 119 (or a mixture of 110 and 119?) and then added the Disney-HD, ESPNNews HD, and Toon Disney-HD to D10.
> 
> The reason (other than adding a few HD channels) for the move to 119 was to give MDUs who didn't have the SlimLine installed a little more time.
> 
> ~Alan


Lyngsat doesn't list those channels on 119. More to the point, if they are mpeg4 _*and*_ ka, they can't be there since 119 doesn't carry ka signals.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> There is a subscription thread for new HD, that will be updated when channels are sighted.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for that, I completely forgot about it. I'm still subscribed from earlier this year.

Easy to loose track of all these threads...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Radio Enginerd said:


> Easy to loose *track of all these threads*...


That's my second job.  :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


It's about time you rolled out of bed. 

So you want to start the D12 anticipation thread now, do ya? :lol:

Let's let this one fizzle out first (soon).


----------



## Radio Enginerd

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It's about time you rolled out of bed.
> 
> So you want to start the D12 anticipation thread now, do ya? :lol:
> 
> Let's let this one fizzle out first (soon).


:lol:

So all of your crystal balls are saying Wednesday? Is that when this thread will "fizzle out"?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Radio Enginerd said:


> :lol:
> 
> So all of your crystal balls are saying Wednesday? Is that when this thread will "fizzle out"?


Some have said so.... 

But I also anticipate a phased launch of the total number of all the new stuff....stay tuned (pun intended)... :lol:


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


Warn me first so I can stick a placeholder in there ... 

Or maybe I should just create one with everything we know so far ...


----------



## TheRatPatrol

syphix said:


> I'm thinking of starting a poll...
> 
> WHICH DO YOU SPEND MORE TIME DOING:
> 
> A) WATCHING HDTV
> 
> B) WATCHING THIS THREAD/FORUM FOR D11 UPDATES?


You forgot

C) BOTH A and B

Some of us have TV's in the office, or laptops in living/AV rooms.


----------



## Jeremy W

raoul5788 said:


> Lyngsat doesn't list those channels on 119. More to the point, if they are mpeg4 _*and*_ ka, they can't be there since 119 doesn't carry ka signals.


Lyngsat is not an authoritative source. The channels are on 119, and they are MPEG4. They are obviously Ku, not Ka.


----------



## LameLefty

smiddy said:


> Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


So, Ogre-man, start throwin' us some freakin' bones! 









Such as . . . . who's Directv contracted for the launch?


----------



## harsh

Jeremy W said:


> Lyngsat is not an authoritative source. The channels are on 119, and they are MPEG4.


Are you sure about channels on 119W being MPEG4?


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> Are you sure about channels on 119W being MPEG4?


The LA HD DNS channels, absolutely. The rest are MPEG2.


----------



## Rob77

smiddy said:


> Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


Still trying to get through all the stuff here....but somehow I knew smiddy would be the one to ask this question :lol:


----------



## raoul5788

Jeremy W said:


> Lyngsat is not an authoritative source. The channels are on 119, and they are MPEG4. They are obviously Ku, not Ka.


Absolutely true about Lyngsat! My locals have been up for over two years on 103, but aren't listed. Regardless, Lyngsat does show the LA dns on 103 in mpeg4 and ka. Why would they also be on 119 in mpeg4 and ku? Do you have a source for your information?


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Since this thread will die in the next couple of days, will the D12 thread start shortly thereafter?


Thread created: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134248

Will update the thread over the next few days with everything we know so far.


----------



## smiddy

Kewl Sixto, you do wonderful work sir!


----------



## texasbrit

Jeremy W said:


> Lyngsat is not an authoritative source. The channels are on 119, and they are MPEG4. They are obviously Ku, not Ka.


I was pretty sure theLA DNS MPEG-4 channels were from 103. I had thought they were on DirecTV10 but I have a suspicion they could be on Spaceway I TP17 since this seems to be a "pseudo-CONUS" transponder.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> So, Ogre-man, start throwin' us some freakin' bones! Such as . . . . who's Directv contracted for the launch?


Bet its SeaLaunch.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Thread created: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134248
> 
> Will update the thread over the next few days with everything we know so far.


...and then close it for a year...  :lol:


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and then close it for a year...  :lol:


Nah ... there will be fillings ... launch partner ... stack plan speculation ... lots of unknown's to be discovered


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Bet its SeaLaunch.


I hope you're right. ILS has had problems with the Breeze upper stages of the last couple launches. If I'm remembering correctly, I think the last fully successful launch from them was D10.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Nah ... there will be fillings ... launch partner ... stack plan speculation ... lots of unknown's to be discovered


I know....just pulling your string....you do a super job with that post!


----------



## Drew2k

Sixto said:


> Nah ... there will be fillings ... launch partner ... stack plan speculation ... lots of unknown's to be discovered


I would love if you could be given some king of privilege to update a locked thread, because then we could have a locked "Sixto Report for D12" we could subscribe to just to get news updates, and then a separate D12 discussion thread for Q&A, with the "A" eventually being added to the Sixto Report!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Drew2k said:


> I would love if you could be given some king of privilege to update a locked thread, because then we could have a locked "Sixto Report for D12" we could subscribe to just to get news updates, and then a separate D12 discussion thread for Q&A, with the "A" eventually being added to the Sixto Report!


Great idea!


----------



## HoTat2

raoul5788 said:


> ...Why would they also be on 119 in mpeg4 and ku? Do you have a source for your information?


There're up on 119 (and 101 as well IIRC) in MPEG-4 (DSS transmission format) on an interim basis for the sake of the slower MDU operators who have not yet converted their housing units to MFH-2/3 systems. But still have tenant subscribers with MPEG-4 capable receivers and need the Los Angeles HD DNS signals.


----------



## texasbrit

HoTat2 said:


> There're up on 119 (and 101 as well IIRC) in MPEG-4 (DSS transmission format) on an interim basis for the sake of the slower MDU operators who have not yet converted their housing units to MFH-2/3 systems. But still have tenant subscribers with MPEG-4 capable receivers and need the Los Angeles HD DNS signals.


Yes, you are absolutely right - I had forgotten about the "temporary" channels created specially to give the MDU operators the DNS signals.


----------



## syphix

Sixto should just be made Moderator, already! 

PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?

YAY OR NAY?

(my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


+1

He would better be able to modify and control his own satellite status threads...


----------



## GP245

Jeremy W said:


> Lyngsat is not an authoritative source. The channels are on 119, and they are MPEG4. They are obviously Ku, not Ka.


The L.A. HD stations have already been removed from 119 - just try to find 81, 83, etc.

When they were there, they, as with the NY HD network affiliates (Owned stations to be correct), were transmitted using MPEG 2.

They're gone from L.A. and soon we will have the N.Y. stations also removed - that is why I just had to update my dish and my receiver here in N.Y.C. - no longer will they be on 119 and no longer in MPEG 2 - all N.Y. HDs, as already with L.A. stations, will only be available via MPEG 4 on a different satellite.


----------



## kw2957

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


YAY ONE MILLION TIMES!


----------



## Fatboy72

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


Yay! :up:


----------



## houskamp

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


Why would we punish him? :lol:


----------



## mcbeevee

Drew2k said:


> I would love if you could be given some king of privilege to update a locked thread, because then we could have a locked "Sixto Report for D12" we could subscribe to just to get news updates, and then a separate D12 discussion thread for Q&A, with the "A" eventually being added to the Sixto Report!


:up: :up:


----------



## Alan Gordon

raoul5788 said:


> Lyngsat doesn't list those channels on 119. More to the point, if they are mpeg4 _*and*_ ka, they can't be there since 119 doesn't carry ka signals.


Channels 391, 393, 397, and 399 are all MPEG4. They were on D10 (KA) at 103 until DirecTV shut off the MPEG2 feeds of the channels (81, 83, 87, 89) on 119 (KU). Now they are MPEG4 and KU on 119.



GP245 said:


> The L.A. HD stations have already been removed from 119 - just try to find 81, 83, etc.


As I said above, they are now being broadcast on channels 391, 393, 397, and 399 on 119 (KU).



GP245 said:


> When they were there, they, as with the NY HD network affiliates (Owned stations to be correct), were transmitted using MPEG 2.


Channels 81, 83, 87, and 89 were transmitted using MPEG2. Channels 391, 393, 397, and 399 are transmitted using MPEG4.



GP245 said:


> They're gone from L.A. and soon we will have the N.Y. stations also removed - that is why I just had to update my dish and my receiver here in N.Y.C. - no longer will they be on 119 and no longer in MPEG 2 - all N.Y. HDs, as already with L.A. stations, will only be available via MPEG 4 on a different satellite.


DirecTV currently has the NYC stations available locally to NY on one of the SpaceWay satellites (most likely still) in MPEG4, nationally on channels 80, 82, 86, and 88. DirecTV currently has these channels in MPEG4 uplinked to D11, soon to be available nationally on channels 390, 392, 396, and 398.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


Thanks for the compliments but I'm good ... Tom, Doug, Stuart, and Michael do a wonderful job!

Like it just the way it is.

And now back to D11 ...


----------



## Groundhog45

Drew2k said:


> I would love if you could be given some kind of privilege to update a locked thread, because then we could have a locked "Sixto Report for D12" we could subscribe to just to get news updates, and then a separate D12 discussion thread for Q&A, with the "A" eventually being added to the Sixto Report!


Another great idea from *Drew2k.* Certainly there is a way to implement this.


----------



## seern

Well my hoping for my local hd lil's just got stronger when the station I watch for news (local NBC affiliate WWBT Ch 12) started hd broadcasting this weekend. Come on D11 lets get fired up. :sure:


----------



## smiddy

syphix said:


> Sixto should just be made Moderator, already!
> 
> PROPOSITION #D10D11D12:
> SHOULD SIXTO BE MADE MODERATOR?
> 
> YAY OR NAY?
> 
> (my vote: YAAAAAAYYYYY!!!!)


If he wants it, YEAH!


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> If he wants it, YEAH!


Nop, I'm good. 

Back to D11 ...


----------



## purtman

Sixto said:


> T. Tom, Doug, Stuart, and Michael do a wonderful job!


+1


----------



## purtman

Sixto, what is the update from today? I saw 7/27 in the headline but not in the text (other than the tle, of course).


----------



## sundude90

I have MPEG 4 receivers and I can see signals for D11. I do NOT have a HD package. I was wondering if I would receive any channels from D11 even though I do not have the HD package?


----------



## computersecguy

sundude90 said:


> I have MPEG 4 receivers and I can see signals for D11. I do NOT have a HD package. I was wondering if I would receive any channels from D11 even though I do not have the HD package?


No. While your receiver may see the channels, since it isn't authorized for your receiver, they will not be displayed. It is just like the various premium packages.

The HD access package is what allows the receivers to show HD channels. There is an extra pack that adds additional HD channels, but is not required.


----------



## sundude90

I wish there was Channels that I could watch and receive that even though I do not have the HD Package, but I do have MPEG 4 receivers and can receive Signals from this D11.


----------



## Alan Gordon

sundude90 said:


> Will I be able to receive any channels from D11, if I do NOT have the HD package but I DO have MPEG 4 Receivers????


If you already have SD-LIL, no.

If you don't already have SD-LIL... then it's possible DirecTV could offer them from D11.

~Alan


----------



## sundude90

What is SD- LIL. What channel is that on?? Any more info about that please let me know. Email me!! [email protected]


----------



## Sixto

purtman said:


> Sixto, what is the update from today? I saw 7/27 in the headline but not in the text (other than the tle, of course).


Updated to clarify that the 40 test channels are hidden and also added words describing the phase-1/phase-2 ...


----------



## LameLefty

sundude90 said:


> What is SD- LIL. What channel is that on?? Any more info about that please let me know. Email me!! [email protected]


SD-LIL is not a channel. It's an acronym for "Standard Definition Local-into-Local," which means regular non-HD local channels rebroadcast into your market via satellite.


----------



## sundude90

Can anyone tell me if I can get any SD- LIL in my area? Or could I get any on D11?

04609- Zipcode


----------



## D*HR-20

sundude90 said:


> Can anyone tell me if I can get any SD- LIL in my area? Or could I get any on D11?
> 
> 04609- Zipcode


You have SD-LiL already from either D10, Spaceway-1, or Spaceway-2 in SD MPEG4. The SD-LiL are your local stations like ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, and the CW.


----------



## harsh

D*HR-20 said:


> You have SD-LiL already from either D10, Spaceway-1, or Spaceway-2 in SD MPEG4.


Bar Harbor is in the Bangor DMA (#152). The SD LIL are on Spaceway 2 (99.2W) and they require an R22, H20, H21, H23, HR20, HR21 or HR21Pro and a 5LNB dish.

Here's a link to the SD LIL qualification page: DIRECTV Locals


----------



## loudo

sundude90 said:


> Can anyone tell me if I can get any SD- LIL in my area? Or could I get any on D11?
> 
> 04609- Zipcode


To find out what locals you can get, go to this page and enter your zip code: http://directv.com/DTVAPP/packProg/...6_A&_DAV=-1&_dynSessConf=-6490621261898150082

To find out what the RSN(s) are for your area, go here and enter your zip code: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageIF.jsp?assetId=P3000004


----------



## jlancaster

harsh said:


> Bar Harbor is in the Bangor DMA (#152). The SD LIL are on Spaceway 2 (99.2W) and they require an R22, H20, H21, H23, HR20, HR21 or HR21Pro and a 5LNB dish.
> 
> Here's a link to the SD LIL qualification page: DIRECTV Locals


OT Any one from Maine would know that it's called bah hahbah...and of course you know that its also called Bang-gor not bang-er. If it ends in an vowel put an "r" there and if it ends with an "r" take it out and replace it with an "ah".


----------



## Groundhog45

Hey guys. I finally found out what TLE means:

Acronym	Definition
TLE	Tactical Legion of Enforcers (gaming clan)
TLE	Tag Logical Element (IBM AFP Structured Field)
TLE	Target Location Error
TLE	Taxe Locale d'Équipement (French: special local construction tax)
TLE	Team Laser Explosion (Weebl & Bob forum)
TLE	Technology & Livelihood Education
TLE	Temperature-Limited Emission
TLE	Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
TLE	Temporal Logic Expression
TLE	Temporary Lodging Expense
TLE	Thai Language Edition (Thailand)
TLE	The Leading Edge
TLE	The Learning Equation
TLE	The Living End (band)
TLE	The Long Emergency (book by Jim Kunstler)
TLE	Thin-Layer Electrophoresis
TLE	Threaded Large End
TLE	Time Limit Exceeded
TLE	Tire Lube Express (Wal-Mart)
TLE	Track Localization Error
TLE	Traffic Law Enforcement (police)
TLE	Traffic Logging Equipment
TLE	Transfer Line Exchanger
TLE	Transient Luminous Events
TLE	Transmission-Line Effect
TLE	Transponder-Lightpath Edge
TLE	Treaty Limited Equipment
TLE	Trusted Link Enterprise
TLE	Turbo Linear Equalization
TLE	Two Line Elements (for satellite tracking)
TLE	Type Load Editor (transportation)
TLE	Tourisme Luxe Economic
TLE	Transactional Learning Environment
TLE	True Learning Environment

Sorry. Back to D11.


----------



## dennisj00

Groundhog45 said:


> Hey guys. I finally found out what TLE means:
> 
> Acronym	Definition
> TLE	Tactical Legion of Enforcers (gaming clan)
> TLE	Tag Logical Element (IBM AFP Structured Field)
> TLE	Target Location Error
> TLE	Taxe Locale d'Équipement (French: special local construction tax)
> TLE	Team Laser Explosion (Weebl & Bob forum)
> TLE	Technology & Livelihood Education
> TLE	Temperature-Limited Emission
> TLE	Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
> TLE	Temporal Logic Expression
> TLE	Temporary Lodging Expense
> TLE	Thai Language Edition (Thailand)
> TLE	The Leading Edge
> TLE	The Learning Equation
> TLE	The Living End (band)
> TLE	The Long Emergency (book by Jim Kunstler)
> TLE	Thin-Layer Electrophoresis
> TLE	Threaded Large End
> TLE	Time Limit Exceeded
> TLE	Tire Lube Express (Wal-Mart)
> TLE	Track Localization Error
> TLE	Traffic Law Enforcement (police)
> TLE	Traffic Logging Equipment
> TLE	Transfer Line Exchanger
> TLE	Transient Luminous Events
> TLE	Transmission-Line Effect
> TLE	Transponder-Lightpath Edge
> TLE	Treaty Limited Equipment
> TLE	Trusted Link Enterprise
> TLE	Turbo Linear Equalization
> TLE	Two Line Elements (for satellite tracking)
> TLE	Type Load Editor (transportation)
> TLE	Tourisme Luxe Economic
> TLE	Transactional Learning Environment
> TLE	True Learning Environment
> 
> Sorry. Back to D11.


Actually, if you Google 'tle', 4 of the first page entries (starting with #3) deal with satellite or ISS topics.

So you can ignore all the other topics. Unless you weren't looking for satellite related topics.


----------



## Dave

DirectV's site is down right now. Any chance they are going to add new channels to the HD list on the web site for early tommorrow morning? Maybe FOX NEWS HD?


----------



## Tom Robertson

Not likely given their normal launching on Wednesday mornings.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## DodgerKing

According to P Smith, two MLB EI channels were moved to D11.



P Smith said:


> Back to the topic:
> 
> Today new channes appears on 99b:
> MLBHD, 732,
> MLBHD, 734.
> 
> Number of test channels reduced to 24.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=129866&page=8


----------



## Jeremy W

DodgerKing said:


> According to P Smith, two MLB EI channels were moved to D11.


The next time 732-1 will have programming on it is Wednesday. That helps to solidify Wednesday as the D11 go live date.


----------



## Brandon428

Jeremy W said:


> The next time 732-1 will have programming on it is Wednesday. That helps to solidify Wednesday as the D11 go live date.


Nice observation.


----------



## DodgerKing

Jeremy W said:


> The next time 732-1 will have programming on it is Wednesday. That helps to solidify Wednesday as the D11 go live date.


And Thursday for 734-1


----------



## Jeremy W

DodgerKing said:


> And Thursday for 734-1


Sorry, I got mixed up. 732-1 is Sunday 8/3, and 734-1 is Thursday.


----------



## P Smith

DodgerKing said:


> According to P Smith, two MLB EI channels were moved to D11.


Sorry, took old file for processing.
Today list:

TEST, 9314,
TEST, 9316,
TEST, 9318,
TEST, 9319,
TEST, 9320,
TEST, 9321,
TEST, 9315,
TEST, 9323,
TEST, 9324,
TEST, 9325,
TEST, 9327,
TEST, 9328,
TEST, 9329,
TEST, 9330,
TEST, 9331,
TEST, 9333,
TEST, 9338,
TEST, 9339,
TEST, 9341,
TEST, 9342,
TEST, 9344,
TEST, 9346,
TEST, 9347,
TEST, 9348,
TEST, 9349,
TEST, 9350,
TEST, 9352,
TEST, 9353,
TEST, 9354,
TEST, 9355,
TEST, 9357,
TEST, 9358,
TEST, 9359,
TEST, 9360,
TEST, 9363,
TEST, 9366,
TEST, 9369,
TEST, 9370,
TEST, 9374,
TEST, 9376,


----------



## Sixto

P Smith said:


> Sorry, took old file for processing.
> Today list ...


Looks great!

Same list as last time. 40 channels of bandwidth ... whew!

Hopefully 7/28/08 is like 10/15/2008, or else we wait for Wednesday ...


----------



## xxx

Sixto said:


> Looks great!
> 
> Same list as last time. 40 channels of bandwidth ... whew!
> 
> Hopefully 7/28/08 is like 10/15/2008, or else we wait for Wednesday ...


Is there a good possibility that tomorrow (7/28) will BE the day or Wednesday. I know that DTV has a history and pattern of launching on Wednesday's, but was just curious as I started to see the 28th floating around.

Also, what are the 40 hidden channels anyway or is there anyway of knowing.

Also, is anyone seeing anything new popping up in their TIVO's??


----------



## Jeremy W

xxx said:


> Also, what are the 40 hidden channels anyway or is there anyway of knowing.


P Smith has to do some hand sorting of his log files to find out what the channels actually are. He did it a couple days ago, and posted the results a few pages back.


----------



## xxx

Jeremy W said:


> P Smith has to do some hand sorting of his log files to find out what the channels actually are. He did it a couple days ago, and posted the results a few pages back.


I beleive I saw that, but didn't know if things had changed since then, or were added onto, etc. I really am hoping that the first big bang will be national HD instead of RSN's, etc.

But as the saying goes, all good things come to those........


----------



## Tom Robertson

...watch DIRECTV


----------



## Alan Gordon

xxx said:


> Also, is anyone seeing anything new popping up in their TIVO's??


Not at this time...

However, there was a ton of channel additions to D10 that weren't listed on TiVo, and some of them were only added a day or two before.

I'll check again before I leave for work in the morning...

~Alan


----------



## Dolly

xxx said:


> I beleive I saw that, but didn't know if things had changed since then, or were added onto, etc. I really am hoping that the first big bang will be national HD instead of RSN's, etc.
> 
> But as the saying goes, all good things come to those........


I don't believe I saw that and I did try to do searches on the Forum to find it, but I couldn't  Anybody have a guess as to how many pages back this information is? This thread is so long :eek2:


----------



## xxx

Dolly said:


> I don't believe I saw that and I did try to do searches on the Forum to find it, but I couldn't  Anybody have a guess as to how many pages back this information is? This thread is so long :eek2:


I believe it is post number 141....page 6.....whew :lol:


----------



## Jeremy W

xxx said:


> I believe it is post number 141....page 6.....whew :lol:


Yep. Not this thread, though: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1698269&postcount=141


----------



## syphix

xxx said:


> Is there a good possibility that tomorrow (7/28) will BE the day or Wednesday. I know that DTV has a history and pattern of launching on Wednesday's, but was just curious as I started to see the 28th floating around.


Nothing popped up today...so, we wait...


----------



## FHSPSU67

Jeremy W said:


> P Smith has to do some hand sorting of his log files to find out what the channels actually are. He did it a couple days ago, and posted the results a few pages back.


Caveat: For Directv 10, Fox Sports Pittsburgh HD was used in these types of tests, but I never got FSP as part of the initial rollouts-came a month or more later. So just because a channel is being tested on D11 does not necessarily mean that it's one of the new channels.


----------



## mhking

Looking at the "favorites" list, it shows "All channels" as 892, while "Channels I get" is only 699. Is there a way to look at the others that are not visible to me?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Looks like they're either balancing the load or using current channels to test D11, and of course moving over the MPEG2 channels. I don't see and new channels listed really?

Anyone know what these 2 channels are?

SAC MNT (D11) tv:kqcadt9338.ch
PUSH HD (D11) tv:test9376.ch


----------



## DodgerKing

theratpatrol said:


> Looks like they're either balancing the load or using current channels to test D11, and of course moving over the MPEG2 channels. I don't see and new channels listed really?
> 
> Anyone know what these 2 channels are?
> 
> SAC MNT (D11) tv:kqcadt9338.ch
> PUSH HD (D11) tv:test9376.ch


The first one is the my network channel for Sacramento. I believe Push is a premium channel.


----------



## bwaldron

theratpatrol said:


> SAC MNT (D11) tv:kqcadt9338.ch


Sacramento KQCA (My Network TV)


----------



## DodgerKing

mhking said:


> Looking at the "favorites" list, it shows "All channels" as 892, while "Channels I get" is only 699. Is there a way to look at the others that are not visible to me?


They usually appear gray in the guide, but there is no "Channels I Don't Get" option.


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE132)
1 32729U 08013A   08209.47661749 -.00000124  00000-0  00000+0 0  1324
2 32729 000.0184 096.5532 0001915 142.1088 139.1996 01.00271039  1426

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B][SIZE="3"]07-27-2008 11:26:19[/SIZE][/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	142
Inclination		0.018
RA of A. Node		96.553
Eccentricity		0.0001915
Argument of Perigee	142.109
Revs per day		1.00271039
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[SIZE="3"][B]35 779 x 35 795 km[/B][/SIZE]
Element number / age	132 / 1 day(s)

Lon			[SIZE="3"][B]99.2140° W[/B][/SIZE]
Lat			0.0276° S
Alt (km)		35 792.380

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#132(07-27-2008 11:26:19) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35,778 x 35,794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)
TLE#128(07-15-2008 10:46:32) 35,785 x 35,787 km (+96.6 hours,at 117.7 days, 100.68°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## syphix

DodgerKing said:


> The first one is the my network channel for Sacramento. I believe Push is a premium channel.


PUSH is most likely a "hidden" channel where Movies Now! movies are recorded at times when your DVR is unused.


----------



## sbl

jlancaster said:


> OT Any one from Maine would know that it's called bah hahbah...and of course you know that its also called Bang-gor not bang-er.


Almost. It's BAN-gor. No g in the first syllable. (Lived there for many years.)


----------



## cb7214

Jeremy W said:


> P Smith has to do some hand sorting of his log files to find out what the channels actually are. He did it a couple days ago, and posted the results a few pages back.


I can't find that post could you reference it jeremy?

Correction:

I did find it thanks jeremy


----------



## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> Not at this time...
> 
> However, there was a ton of channel additions to D10 that weren't listed on TiVo, and some of them were only added a day or two before.
> 
> I'll check again before I leave for work in the morning...


Nothing new this morning...

~Alan


----------



## jared52

Well according to the press release that's in the Programming forum, the new channels won't go live until August 14 and there's another post with a big list of local channels that are coming and Decatur-Huntsville, AL isn't on it but Dothan, AL is. Go figure. I'm glad I can get my locals OTA.


----------



## nj1313

jared52 said:


> Well according to the press release that's in the Programming forum, the new channels won't go loive until August 14 and there's another post with a big list of local channels that are coming and Decatur-Huntsville, AL isn't on it but Dothan, AL is. Go figure. I'm glad I can get my locals OTA.


Could you post a link to your information?

Thanx


----------



## VARTV

jared52 said:


> Well according to the press release that's in the Programming forum, the new channels won't go loive until August 14 and there's another post with a big list of local channels that are coming and Decatur-Huntsville, AL isn't on it but Dothan, AL is. Go figure. I'm glad I can get my locals OTA.


Yeah... not a lot of national channels at all (minus the RSNs)...


----------



## syphix

I'm hoping people don't get too disappointed if/when D11 doesn't light up with channels (MPEG2->MPEG4 conversions or otherwise) this Wednesday...we may need to wait a little bit (Aug. 14).


----------



## Tom Robertson

jared52 said:


> Well according to the press release that's in the Programming forum, the new channels won't go live until August 14 and there's another post with a big list of local channels that are coming and Decatur-Huntsville, AL isn't on it but Dothan, AL is. Go figure. I'm glad I can get my locals OTA.





nj1313 said:


> Could you post a link to your information?
> 
> Thanx


Here is an appropriate quote from that Press Release:


> DIRECTV will also transmit all of its HD programming in the MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding standard, by the end of this month - the first to do so in the industry.


The thread is http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134302

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## jared52

Both posts are in the DirecTV programming forum.

Info on national channels

Info on local channels


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> Here is an appropriate quote from that Press Release:
> 
> 
> 
> DIRECTV will also transmit all of its HD programming in the MPEG-4 Advanced Video Coding standard, by the end of this month - the first to do so in the industry.
Click to expand...

Wow....scratch what I said about nothing "lighting up" this Wednesday. Nothing NEW perhaps, but MPEG2->MPEG4 conversions of legacy HD's! Nice!!


----------



## Steve Robertson

ESPN finally going over to MPEG 4 is great news


----------



## egould

I, for one, am thrilled. I realize we are not looking at a rush of new channels like last fall, but I have a tree blocking 119 and have not been able to receive ESPN2HD. Plus, I am looking forward to the conversion of the MPEG-2's to MPEG-4. Good times.


----------



## nj1313

egould said:


> I, for one, am thrilled. I realize we are not looking at a rush of new channels like last fall, but I have a tree blocking 119 and have not been able to receive ESPN2HD. Plus, I am looking forward to the conversion of the MPEG-2's to MPEG-4. Good times.


Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


----------



## Smthkd

YES!!!


----------



## Steve Robertson

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


Yes a very big difference from my observations


----------



## bwaldron

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


Given the amount of compression that DirecTV has to apply to the MPEG2 channels, yes there is...especially on certain types of content.


----------



## nj1313

bwaldron said:


> Given the amount of compression that DirecTV has to apply to the MPEG2 channels, yes there is...especially on certain types of content.


Nice!:hurah:


----------



## egould

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


I notice a big difference. Other posters have noted the difference in quality when highlights of games broadcast on MPEG-4 channels like NESN are shown on Sportscenter. It's noticeably fuzzier.


----------



## baker60

jared52 said:


> Well according to the press release that's in the Programming forum, the new channels won't go live until August 14 and there's another post with a big list of local channels that are coming and Decatur-Huntsville, AL isn't on it but Dothan, AL is. Go figure. I'm glad I can get my locals OTA.


The "peanut capital" wins out. You can't figure this out. I also get good OTA's, but would like it better if I didn't have to switch imputs to go from locals to nationals and back to locals. Life is so "unfair".


----------



## drx792

I have a question about D11's capacity....

We know D10 gave us the up to 100 HD stuff. And we're about there now. The SAT is basically full and they have to turn off PPV for sports.
D11 gives us the up to 150...but wait they are the same sats....shouldnt that be 200 or is there a smaller amount of TP Licenses?

Anyway with all the PPV they are adding and RSN's(23 thats almost half!) and then with the Sports Packages being all MPEG4 it seems like 150 will be reached too easily, and we'll be in the same situation with having to turn off certain streams until D12.


----------



## mbuser

August 14 is a Thursday. So why is that the announced date instead of August 13as has been rumored for a while?


----------



## mcbeevee

drx792 said:


> I have a question about D11's capacity....
> 
> We know D10 gave us the up to 100 HD stuff. And we're about there now. The SAT is basically full and they have to turn off PPV for sports.
> D11 gives us the up to 150...but wait they are the same sats....shouldnt that be 200 or is there a smaller amount of TP Licenses?


You have to factor in the 1,500 HD LIL channels, so the -combined- capacity of D10 & D11 is 150 HD channels and 1,500 HD LIL's.


----------



## evan_s

drx792 said:


> I have a question about D11's capacity....
> 
> We know D10 gave us the up to 100 HD stuff. And we're about there now. The SAT is basically full and they have to turn off PPV for sports.
> D11 gives us the up to 150...but wait they are the same sats....shouldnt that be 200 or is there a smaller amount of TP Licenses?
> 
> Anyway with all the PPV they are adding and RSN's(23 thats almost half!) and then with the Sports Packages being all MPEG4 it seems like 150 will be reached too easily, and we'll be in the same situation with having to turn off certain streams until D12.


D10 is actually a little bit beyond full right now. They are using 2 Transponders that where intended for Spot channels for Conus right now which is why 103c has 16tps and 99c only has 14. The 100 HD channels also included the legacy Mpeg2 hd channels from 110/119 in the count so when you factor those in it's not hard to see how the Conus HD capacity for D10 and D11 is intended to be around 75 channels each. Interestingly they are only saying 200 hd channels once D12 is launched which leads me to believe we'll see even more HD LILs once D12 is launched since they would obviously have more conus capacity if they wanted/needed to use it at that point.


----------



## Tom Robertson

drx792 said:


> I have a question about D11's capacity....
> 
> We know D10 gave us the up to 100 HD stuff. And we're about there now. The SAT is basically full and they have to turn off PPV for sports.
> D11 gives us the up to 150...but wait they are the same sats....shouldnt that be 200 or is there a smaller amount of TP Licenses?
> 
> Anyway with all the PPV they are adding and RSN's(23 thats almost half!) and then with the Sports Packages being all MPEG4 it seems like 150 will be reached too easily, and we'll be in the same situation with having to turn off certain streams until D12.


My guess is D10 will back down 2 national transponders to it's original request now that D11 is up. And that will enable it to carry more LILs, so all four together will carry 1500 LILs.

Edit: What evan_s said. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


A while back (DirecTV may have upped the bandwidth given since then), it was discovered that the MPEG2 versions of HBO HD East (70, 501, 509), Showtime-HD East (71, 537, 54?), and HDNet Movies (78) were being given around 5-7 mbps bitrates a piece... which is LOW for MPEG2. As I said above, DirecTV may have upped the bandwidth given to each channel since then, but I imagine it is still quite low.

I don't know how much bandwith DirecTV will give the MPEG4 versions, but MPEG4 versions at the same amount of bandwidth should be MUCH improved over the bit-starved MPEG2 versions.

~Alan


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Any chance D11 (or D10) could start showing new MPEG-4 SD channels?


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> A while back (DirecTV may have upped the bandwidth given since then), it was discovered that HBO HD East (70, 501, 509), Showtime-HD East (71, 537, 54?), and HDNet Movies (78) were being given around 5-7 mbps bitrates a piece. As I said above, DirecTV may have upped the bandwidth given to each channel, but I imagine it is still quite low.
> 
> ~Alan


But as discussed previously, bandwidth is not the only important factor in picture quality. An MPEG2 channel compressed in the same way as the current MPEG2 channels with 5-7 Mbps bitrate will look bad. There are other circumstances where a similar bitrate using a different compression scheme could look significantly better.

So, yes, those low bitrate MPEG2 streams were bad. But you can't compare MPEG2 bitrates to MPEG4 bitrates and get any credible comparison.


----------



## Drew2k

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


One difference is that MPEG-4 recordings take up less disk space, so you could squeeze some more recordings on the drive by migrating MPEG-2 recordings to the MPEG-4 channels...


----------



## gregjones

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Any chance D11 (or D10) could start showing new MPEG-4 SD channels?


It is possible, but would mean paying attention to a few items. First, there aren't many new SD channels out there. Second, any channel offered in MPEG4 is only available to MPEG4 equipment. So the great majority of SD customers out there would get no benefit whatsoever. The SD customers that did see them would be the slim number of them with MPEG4-capable SD equipment.

Unless DirecTV has decided to push SD customers to MPEG4 fairly aggressively, I do not see a lot of incentive for it. The marketing would be too confusing to gain any advantage. It would contain a whole paragraph explaining why you had to have HD equipment or a specific receiver for an SD channel.


----------



## gregjones

Drew2k said:


> One difference is that MPEG-4 recordings take up less disk space, so you could squeeze some more recordings on the drive by migrating MPEG-2 recordings to the MPEG-4 channels...


And that is the primary reason I am glad my DMA is on the new list to be carried in HD LIL by the end of the year. All but one local station is rock solid via OTA, but I would rather conserve hard drive space on the recordings. I already use the west coast (MPEG4) feeds of the premium channels expressly for this purpose.


----------



## xxx

I don't know whether it was just me getting my hopes up or what, but I was really looking forward to clicking that link that spoke about the national HD and seeing that:

Fox News
Lifetime
Travel
Hallmark
QVC
All Starz/HBO/Showtime/Max Channels
Planet Green

(I know some of which I named is included in the press release but those are the ones that came off the top of my head....)

And anything else I may be missing that we were all looking forward to receiving since D10 

wasn't really spoke about. I kind of get the impression that D11 is being more geared towards RSN's, PPV Sports, and LIL's.

Am I correct or missing the whole picture about national HD.

Thanks so much!


----------



## Alan Gordon

gregjones said:


> So, yes, those low bitrate MPEG2 streams were bad. But you can't compare MPEG2 bitrates to MPEG4 bitrates and get any credible comparison.


I wasn't comparing MPEG2 bitrates to MPEG4 bitrates?

My point was that some of DirecTV's MPEG2 HD channels are/were horribly compressed, and that the MPEG4 versions shouldn't be. That's all!

~Alan


----------



## DarinC

nj1313 said:


> Is there really that much of a difference between MPEG-2 and MPEG-4?


You also have to consider that getting that content onto 99/101/103 allows DirecTV to start using the less expensive Slimline-3 dish for the vast majority of installs going forward.


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> I wasn't comparing MPEG2 bitrates to MPEG4 bitrates?
> 
> My point was that some of DirecTV's MPEG2 HD channels are/were horribly compressed, and that the MPEG4 versions shouldn't be. That's all!
> 
> ~Alan


I know you weren't. But someone not as familiar could have easily taken that meaning from the words in your post.


----------



## Alan Gordon

gregjones said:


> I know you weren't. But someone not as familiar could have easily taken that meaning from the words in your post.


I edited it a little to hopefully explain things better.

~Alan


----------



## mcbeevee

xxx said:


> I don't know whether it was just me getting my hopes up or what, but I was really looking forward to clicking that link that spoke about the national HD and seeing that:


This is just the first press release for the new HD channels. There will be more channels added later.


----------



## hyde76

Has anyone considered that the channels noted in the press release were there because of some agreement with DTV that they be part of the press release?


----------



## gregjones

hyde76 said:


> Has anyone considered that the channels noted in the press release were there because of some agreement with DTV that they be part of the press release?


I have considered that a lot of people are angry about a press release when we only have to wait two days (three at the outside) to get a pretty good deal of perspective.

This is a press release with specific dates in it. DirecTV's press releases tend to be somewhat understated compared to their competitors. For instance, saying that the new satellite would be live in September when we can see the signals now.

Can we at least wait to see what shows up this week before flaming them? How many dozens of posts have complained about HD channels still being MPEG2? Now they announce an end to that and they are shouted down for doing too little.


----------



## Sirshagg

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Any chance D11 (or D10) could start showing new MPEG-4 SD channels?


Yes and no - see http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133403 for a more complete discussion of this topic.


----------



## mcbeevee

Now we can start speculating what the 3 channels not listed in the press release for 30 new HD channels are going to be (23 RSN's + Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD = 27).


----------



## paco1986

So when should we expect to see the HD resolution slide coming from D11? Any ideas? Soon?!:lol:


----------



## DarinC

mcbeevee said:


> Now we can start speculating what the 3 channels not listed in the press release for 30 new HD channels are going to be (23 RSN's + Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD = 27).


That should be 7 new channels, but some are PPV.


----------



## syphix

DarinC said:


> That should be 7 new channels, but some are PPV.


Just some thoughts...

a) They are adding 30+ channels _beginning_ Aug. 14th. Not all may be added that Thursday morning.

b) Out of those 30+ channels, 4 are HD networks, and 23 are RSN's...totaling 27. Leaving 3+ for "other" channels. But they ALSO state that they will be the "clear HD leader with *130 HD channels*. And they currently state they are at 95.

130 (where we're going) - 95 (where we are) = 35 (the channel gap).

35 (the channel gap) - 27 (the listed channels in the PR) = 8 (mystery channels)

Are all 8+ going to be PPV-HD's (something they mention but give no indication of how many are coming...)?? Will all 8 be added >8/14, or will some be "soft launched" this Wednesday? Just speculation...


----------



## DarinC

Um, yeah, I can't add. My point was that it's really 35+ channels, to get to 130, but the difference between 30 & 35 is 5, and 5+3 = 8, not 7.


----------



## Jon D

DarinC said:


> That should be 7 new channels, but some are PPV.


It's tough to speculate. These press releases in the past have not always been indicative of the final outcome. What we should take from this is what we already know. The Sat is ready and a whole bunch more HD is going to be coming over the summer and fall. It'll be interesting to see what shows up wednesdays or thursdays or whenever they light up new channels this time.


----------



## DarinC

Yes, I think the point is we have at _least_ 8 channels to speculate about.


----------



## syphix

DarinC said:


> Yes, I think the point is we have at _least_ 8 channels to speculate about.


Some of which _will_ be PPV-HD's...I, for one, would be even more disappointed if _all_ of them turned out to be...


----------



## Jon D

syphix said:


> Some of which _will_ be PPV-HD's...I, for one, would be even more disappointed if _all_ of them turned out to be...


I think they will add whatever channels they have ready to go and fill the rest up with HD PPV. After that, they will keep adding the channels as they finalize the contracts and whatever else they have to do. I'm pretty sure there is enough room to add all the currently available HD channels and not run out of room until a short time before D12 is ready to go. Besides, they can always pull a few HD PPVs if they get in a bind again.


----------



## DarinC

I wonder how much revenue they get with PPV. Especially since the 24hr rule. I wonder what percentage of PPV buyers have DVRs. If it's a majority, are all those redundant time-shifted feeds _really_ necessary?


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> You also have to consider that getting that content onto 99/101/103 allows DirecTV to start using the less expensive Slimline-3 dish for the vast majority of installs going forward.


As DIRECTV has no HD only package, this is going to be a painfully slow process that cannot begin until D12 is up and running. I'm also not convinced that they can carry everything they have now along with what they've promised on three slots.


----------



## DarinC

I'm not sure I follow you. You think there will be something left on 110/119 that will require them to continue using the SL-5 for most installs?


----------



## gregjones

harsh said:


> As DIRECTV has no HD only package, this is going to be a painfully slow process that cannot begin until D12 is up and running. I'm also not convinced that they can carry everything they have now along with what they've promised on three slots.


What does the one have to do with the other? Having an HD-only package just means that some people don't get some SD channels.

Also, keep in mind that three slots does not equate to three satellites.


----------



## benmusic

Here is my thought on the new channels. Since sports is #1, I think that they want to get as many RSN's up and running as they can, to be ready for the upcoming seasons of football, basketball, hockey, and maybe even some olympic coverage. After that, between now and the end of the end of the year, they will fill in around 20 more national channels. That should about do it until next year when D12 goes up.
Sounds like a plan to me.

Ben Music


----------



## Dave

I believe the only reason DirectV made this announcement today was because Verizon came out first and said they now have 100 HD channels. 
After Verizon's announcement was when DirectV came out with there public announcement. 
So perhaps we actually have Verizon to thank for pushing DirectV into some kind of announcement now.
As some have said, me included we did not think D11 would go live until September.


----------



## gregjones

benmusic said:


> Here is my thought on the new channels. Since sports is #1, I think that they want to get as many RSN's up and running as they can, to be ready for the upcoming seasons of football, basketball, hockey, and maybe even some olympic coverage. After that, between now and the end of the end of the year, they will fill in around 20 more national channels. That should about do it until next year when D12 goes up.
> Sounds like a plan to me.
> 
> Ben Music


I think, more than anything, that they are trying to get rid of the workarounds they had from limited bandwidth:
get rid of RSN/PPV sharing (full-time RSN, full-time PPV)
get rid of lower quality MPEG2 HD broadcasts on MPEG4 equipment (mirror MPEG2 channels with MPEG4 channels)
get rid of extra transponder usage on D10 (giving back the two not originally planned for national HD usage)

I think anything that happens beyond that is happening as time permits. It isn't a bad methodology: fix the problems you knowingly created before adding to them.


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> As DIRECTV has no HD only package, this is going to be a painfully slow process that cannot begin until D12 is up and running. I'm also not convinced that they can carry everything they have now along with what they've promised on three slots.


Other than the HD signals already announced to be mirrored in Mpeg 4 by the end of the month there is no reason your average HD subscriber needs to see 110/119. A standard SD customer only needs to see 101 unless their locals are on 119 or 72.5. 72.5 is going away and indications seem to be they will be handled by 99 or 103 using mpeg4. 110/119 is most likely going to be taking over the international load once the mpeg2 mirrors get shut off. Keep in mind that between 110 and 119 DirecTV has around half a DBS allocation. Most of this bandwidth is currently used up by mpeg2 hd channels with the remainder being locals on spots and the spanish channels.

The Slimline 3 is already set to start deployment by the end of the month which was how I knew the mpeg4 mirrors would be up by the end of the month before this press release.

DirecTV has TONS of bandwidth at 99/101/103. They have the full dbs slot at 101 and the full allocation for Ka at both 99 and 103. The Ka allocation has 2 500mhz blocks at both slots. In addition to having 2 500mhz slots the ka bands also don't have fixed transponder sizes allowing DirecTV to use fewer larger transponders which leads to more usable bandwidth from the 500mhz blocks compared to DBS. Combine that with newer encoding systems used on the Ka sats and the Mpeg4 compression and DirecTV has plenty of bandwidth to play with at those slots.

I expect that by the time DirecTV has filled up the 2500mhz of bandwidth they have at 99/101/103 currently BSS will be a reality adding another 800-1200mhz for DirecTV at these same 3 slots (400mhz at 2 or 3 slots).


----------



## curt8403

gregjones said:


> I think, more than anything, that they are trying to get rid of the workarounds they had from limited bandwidth:
> 
> get rid of RSN/PPV sharing (full-time RSN, full-time PPV)
> get rid of lower quality MPEG2 HD broadcasts on MPEG4 equipment (mirror MPEG2 channels with MPEG4 channels)
> get rid of extra transponder usage on D10 (giving back the two not originally planned for national HD usage)
> I think anything that happens beyond that is happening as time permits. It isn't a bad methodology: fix the problems you knowingly created before adding to them.


and just think of NFL sundays. They will not have to Chop the PPVS anymore


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> As DIRECTV has no HD only package, this is going to be a painfully slow process that cannot begin until D12 is up and running.





DarinC said:


> I'm not sure I follow you. You think there will be something left on 110/119 that will require them to continue using the SL-5 for most installs?


Yes, harsh, please explain yourself. On Wednesday, the need for 110 and 119 on the majority of installs will be removed. So what use would the SL-5 have?


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> Yes, harsh, please explain yourself. On Wednesday, the need for 110 and 119 on the majority of installs will be removed. So what use would the SL-5 have?


mAYBE sl5 IS THE ONly dish that is in the wild right now??


----------



## VandyCWG

gregjones said:


> I think, more than anything, that they are trying to get rid of the workarounds they had from limited bandwidth:
> get rid of RSN/PPV sharing (full-time RSN, full-time PPV)
> get rid of lower quality MPEG2 HD broadcasts on MPEG4 equipment (mirror MPEG2 channels with MPEG4 channels)
> get rid of extra transponder usage on D10 (giving back the two not originally planned for national HD usage)
> 
> I think anything that happens beyond that is happening as time permits. It isn't a bad methodology: fix the problems you knowingly created before adding to them.


I actually was thinking this....fix what was already wrong, then add stuff.

+1 GregJones


----------



## timmac

What a jolt in the anticipation meter! 8 Channels, I think some people were hoping they would get 8 channels just of HBO. I personally don't care, although I was hoping for more HD, this is really a let down.

Who put that in the muffin house?


----------



## yankeesfan

I read earlier that if the odd and even transponder readings are different it might be an installation problem, and after checking my signal strengths, the odds are in the 66-71 range whereas the evens are in the 78-80 range on each of the HD receivers. My 103 readings are in the mid to high 80s with no difference between odds and evens so is this something D* will have to fix once D11 goes live?


----------



## freerein100

Isn't one of the 8 going to be ESPNUHD


----------



## bobnielsen

Jeremy W said:


> On Wednesday, the need for 110 and 119 on the majority of installs will be removed. So what use would the SL-5 have?


SD locals already on 119 plus the 72.5 locals and 95 international channels which will be moving once 110/119 bandwidth is available.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bobnielsen said:


> SD locals already on 119 plus the 72.5 locals and 95 international channels which will be moving once 110/119 bandwidth is available.


72.5 locals will apparently be moving to 99/103.

So, only people with locals on 119 and international channel customers will need 119... hence why many people will not need 119.

~Alan


----------



## John4924

When Directv changes the legacy channels [ESPN, TNT, etc] to mpeg4 by the end of this month [this Thursday], will someone be able to "know" that they are now mpeg4? How will we know?

Thanks & cheers,
John


----------



## Lucid504

John4924 said:


> When Directv changes the legacy channels [ESPN, TNT, etc] to mpeg4 by the end of this month [this Thursday], will someone be able to "know" that they are now mpeg4? How will we know?
> 
> Thanks & cheers,
> John


If you unplug your bbc and the channel still comes in its not in mpeg 4


----------



## syphix

John4924 said:


> When Directv changes the legacy channels [ESPN, TNT, etc] to mpeg4 by the end of this month [this Thursday], will someone be able to "know" that they are now mpeg4? How will we know?


They'll look better.  Especially with high action or "low light" programs.

(...and what Lucid said )


----------



## dcowboy7

syphix said:


> They'll look better.  Especially with high action or "low light" programs.
> 
> (...and what Lucid said )


and take up less dvr space.


----------



## EaglePC

so weds august 6,2008 we have new channels from d-11?


----------



## syphix

EaglePC said:


> so weds august 6,2008 we have new channels from d-11?


Um...where did you get _that_ date??

30 July - MPEG2 get mirrored to MPEG4.
14 Aug - new HD's, as posted in the PR.


----------



## Sixto

Now that things have calmed down ...

Quick review of today re: D11 ...

1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.

2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.

3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.

4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.

5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's (ignoring the 1 "Push" Movie's Now for now since it's a hidden channel)

So we have 35 new.

Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.

Minus 6 HD PPV (ignoring the 1 Movie's Now) gives us 17 new.

And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.

And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.

They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.

That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.

13 channels of HD goodness!

Assuming the math above is correct ... 

*Edit:* Added the 1 Movie's Now HD Channel found by P. Smith. Count now 12, not 13.

*Edit2:* Reverted back to the 13. Ignoring the "push" Movie's Now as it's hidden.


----------



## John4924

syphix said:


> Um...where did you get _that_ date??
> 
> 30 July - MPEG2 get mirrored to MPEG4.
> 14 Aug - new HD's, as posted in the PR.


This IS eaglepc 

and I never did get my $5


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> Quick review of today re: D11 ...
> 
> 1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.
> 
> 2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.
> 
> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.
> 
> 4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.
> 
> 5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's.
> 
> So we have 35 new.
> 
> Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.
> 
> Minus 6 HD PPV gives us 17 new.
> 
> And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.
> 
> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


NOW I'm getting excited!!! :up:

AS FOR WHY OTHER CHANNELS WEREN'T LISTED IN THE PRESS RELEASE, perhaps contracts have not yet been completely finalized, or transmissions of those channels "perfected" (to paraphrase Tom)...they have a little over two weeks to get there.

And a LOT can happen in two weeks, as we all know.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> NOW I'm getting excited!!!


Me too.

I tried to be conservative and make reasonable assumptions and the answer is 17. Can't imagine where the math is wrong unless there's more PPV, or the logic for the 95 changes, or Satelliteracer is wrong (but he's never been wrong before).

Can certainly think of several reasons why all of the channels aren't in the press release. Mostly marketing/PR reasons but could be contractual as well.


----------



## syphix

No offense to Satelliteracer, but DirecTV _really_ should update/amend the press release...it still states "additional 23 RSN's", not "total"...


----------



## BigJ52

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> Quick review of today re: D11 ...
> 
> 1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.
> 
> 2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.
> 
> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.
> 
> 4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.
> 
> 5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's.
> 
> So we have 35 new.
> 
> Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.
> 
> Minus 6 HD PPV gives us 17 new.
> 
> And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.
> 
> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


Good work Sixto, makes sense to me. Hopefully it turns out that way.


----------



## EaglePC

thanks guys for the accurate information.


----------



## EaglePC

John4924 said:


> This IS eaglepc
> 
> and I never did get my $5


its good to be back everytime something is exciting on dbstalk


----------



## DarinC

John4924 said:


> When Directv changes the legacy channels [ESPN, TNT, etc] to mpeg4 by the end of this month [this Thursday], will someone be able to "know" that they are now mpeg4? How will we know?


I will know. When I got upgraded to the SL-5, I lost LOS to 110/119. When I start getting those channels again, they changed them.


----------



## DarinC

Sixto said:


> the answer is 17.


I thought it was 42?


----------



## syphix

DarinC said:


> I will know. When I got upgraded to the SL-5, I lost LOS to 110/119. When I start getting those channels again, they changed them.


Oh, and you can also just remove the "sidecar" if you have an AT-9 dish. The sidecar only picks up 110/119 (as I learned earlier this year when strong wind blew my sidecar off...)









I guess once the MPEG2's are transferred, I could just remove the whole sidecar and it's arm...hmmm.....I'll make my OWN "Slimline3"!


----------



## evan_s

syphix said:


> Oh, and you can also just remove the "sidecar" if you have an AT-9 dish. The sidecar only picks up 110/119 (as I learned earlier this year when strong wind blew my sidecar off...)
> 
> I guess once the MPEG2's are transferred, I could just remove the whole sidecar and it's arm...hmmm.....I'll make my OWN "Slimline3"!


Actually just removing the sidecar isn't a good idea. With a Slimline or an AT9 the 119 signal is still used to provide the guide data when you are viewing a channel on 103c or 103s. Removing the sidecar will prevent it from receiving that guide data. Apparently the slimline3 will be putting 101 in the place of 110/119 in the stack plan so 103c/s will still be able to receive the guide data. Your AT9 missing the sidecar won't know to do that.

Not getting the guide data won't cause immediate problems but it isn't a good long term situation.


----------



## Albie

syphix said:


> I guess once the MPEG2's are transferred, I could just remove the whole sidecar and it's arm...hmmm.....I'll make my OWN "Slimline3"!


Wouldn't that make it a Fatline3? 

Isn't the reflector bigger than the Slimline?


----------



## cartrivision

Sixto said:


> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.


All the above makes sense and sounds perfectly logical, so now the big question is why doesn't someone over at DirecTV get off their but, do their job, and correct the press release?


----------



## GP245

And when it doesn't work, you can
call it a Flatline!


----------



## John4924

syphix said:


> Oh, and you can also just remove the "sidecar" if you have an AT-9 dish. The sidecar only picks up 110/119 (as I learned earlier this year when strong wind blew my sidecar off...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess once the MPEG2's are transferred, I could just remove the whole sidecar and it's arm...hmmm.....I'll make my OWN "Slimline3"!


Dude, this looks really cold there! Are you north of the Artic Circle or something? 

Seriously, when you figure out your custom "slimline" let me know, because I have a sidecar just like yours.

Cheers,
John


----------



## Dolly

I hadn't had a chance to get on here, but I thought something must be up. Because I followed those test channels through the guide. They say they are test channels up to the date of 8/10, but on 8/11 those channels no longer say test channels they say "to be announced". So I figured from that our wait is just about over :sunsmile:


----------



## Dolly

Jeremy W said:


> Yep. Not this thread, though: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1698269&postcount=141


Thanks for the link Jeremy  And thanks to P. Smith for all that hard work :goodjob:


----------



## syphix

Sixto, LameLefty, other experts: would it be safe to remove the sidecar on an AT-9 dish after the MPEG4 transfer (assuming your locals aren't on 110/119)? In my linked to thread, there were claims that the MPEG4 guide data comes down 119...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1549960&postcount=41

Are they/have they moved that data stream to 99/103 yet (considering the impending release/installs of Slimline3's)?



Dolly said:


> I hadn't had a chance to get on here, but I thought something must be up. Because I followed those test channels through the guide. They say they are test channels up to the date of 8/10, but on 8/11 those channels no longer say test channels they say "to be announced". So I figured from that our wait is just about over :sunsmile:


Could just be that your guide data ends on 8/10. Check again tomorrow.


John4924 said:


> Dude, this looks really cold there! Are you north of the Artic Circle or something?
> 
> Seriously, when you figure out your custom "slimline" let me know, because I have a sidecar just like yours.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


This was back in April which (in Minnesota) is still "winter"...especially this year! It didn't warm up until early/mid JUNE!!

BTW, it's 84° now...and humid as hell.


----------



## dbmaven

cartrivision said:


> All the above makes sense and sounds perfectly logical, so now the big question is why doesn't someone over at DirecTV get off their but, do their job, and correct the press release?


Because if they did, none of this exciting conversation would be taking place.
And then they wouldn't be able to read these threads and laugh their backsides off at the misinformation, rampant speculation, innuendo, etc, etc.

DirecTV needs their amusement, too!


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> Sixto, LameLefty, other experts: would it be safe to remove the sidecar on an AT-9 dish after the MPEG4 transfer (assuming your locals aren't on 110/119)? In my linked to thread, there were claims that the MPEG4 guide data comes down 119...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1549960&postcount=41
> 
> Are they/have they moved that data stream to 99/103 yet (considering the impending release/installs of Slimline3's)?


I'm not the guy on this question, sorry! I have very little clue about the Guide data stream except that I thought it was on 101 only, so what do I know?


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> Sixto, LameLefty, other experts: would it be safe to remove the sidecar on an AT-9 dish after the MPEG4 transfer (assuming your locals aren't on 110/119)? In my linked to thread, there were claims that the MPEG4 guide data comes down 119...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1549960&postcount=41
> 
> Are they/have they moved that data stream to 99/103 yet (considering the impending release/installs of Slimline3's)?
> 
> Could just be that your guide data ends on 8/10.  Check again tomorrow.


You can't remove the sidecar this week unless you use a SWM for all your receivers. The SL3, SWM, and SWMline all use 101's guide data, but the SL5 dishes still use 119.

(Also if your SD locals come from 119, you might want your sidecar.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> You can't remove the sidecar this week unless you use a SWM for all your receivers. The SL3, SWM, and SWMline all use 101's guide data, but the SL5 dishes still use 119.
> 
> (Also if your SD locals come from 119, you might want your sidecar.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


If I use an SWM I'm fine, though? Even on the legacy ports on SD DVR's (R15's)? Do R15's et al (i.e., non-MPEG4 receivers) need to see 119 for guide data?

Lemme see if I have this right:

IF:
a) no locals come from 119, and
b) you use an SWM for HR2x's,
THEN:
removal of the "sidecar" will do no harm.

EDIT (to add): I don't care either way...I'm just curious.


----------



## evan_s

syphix said:


> Sixto, LameLefty, other experts: would it be safe to remove the sidecar on an AT-9 dish after the MPEG4 transfer (assuming your locals aren't on 110/119)? In my linked to thread, there were claims that the MPEG4 guide data comes down 119...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1549960&postcount=41


The info is already present in http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133958

Tom Robertson specifically states not to remove the sidecar several times and verifies my guess that 101 will just replace 110/119 in the stack plan for guide data when watching a 103 channel.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> Quick review of today re: D11 ...
> 
> 1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.
> 
> 2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.
> 
> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.
> 
> 4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.
> 
> 5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's.
> 
> So we have 35 new.
> 
> Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.
> 
> Minus 6 HD PPV gives us 17 new.
> 
> And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.
> 
> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


Any speculation what those 13 maybe? What other HDs out there that are still not mentioned? The HBO suit? Fox News, what else?


----------



## Dolly

syphix said:


> Sixto, LameLefty, other experts: would it be safe to remove the sidecar on an AT-9 dish after the MPEG4 transfer (assuming your locals aren't on 110/119)? In my linked to thread, there were claims that the MPEG4 guide data comes down 119...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1549960&postcount=41
> 
> Are they/have they moved that data stream to 99/103 yet (considering the impending release/installs of Slimline3's)?
> 
> Could just be that your guide data ends on 8/10. Check again tomorrow.This was back in April which (in Minnesota) is still "winter"...especially this year! It didn't warm up until early/mid JUNE!!
> 
> BTW, it's 84° now...and humid as hell.


No the guide clearly says those channels are no longer test checks as of 8/11, however, they just say "to be announced" so that doesn't mean anything is going to be on them by 8/11. Because there are other channels where you see "to be announced", but I thought it was good news that they were no longer called "test channels"


----------



## miller24

jacmyoung said:


> Any speculation what those 13 maybe? What other HDs out there that are still not mentioned? The HBO suit? Fox News, what else?


WGN AMERICA HD!


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> If I use an SWM I'm fine, though? Even on the legacy ports on SD DVR's (R15's)? Do R15's et al (i.e., non-MPEG4 receivers) need to see 119 for guide data?
> 
> Lemme see if I have this right:
> 
> IF:
> a) no locals come from 119, and
> b) you use an SWM for HR2x's,
> THEN:
> removal of the "sidecar" will do no harm.
> 
> EDIT (to add): I don't care either way...I'm just curious.


Since the R15 won't tune to 110/119, yes your summary is spot on.

And I'm glad you ask--I'm happy to help with your curiosity and someone else's caring who might not ask. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

John4924 said:


> When Directv changes the legacy channels [ESPN, TNT, etc] to mpeg4 by the end of this month [this Thursday], will someone be able to "know" that they are now mpeg4? How will we know?


Well, MPEG4 versions of HDNet and HDNet Movies will probably have channel numbers in the 200s/300s. East Coast HD-DNS will probably join the West Coast HD-DNS in the 390s.

Plus, the majority D ) of them will take up less room on our DVRs.

~Alan


----------



## syphix

Tom Robertson said:


> Since the R15 won't tune to 110/119, yes your summary is spot on.
> 
> And I'm glad you ask--I'm happy to help with your curiosity and someone else's caring who might not ask.


Great to hear! Looks like I'm heading up to the roof later this week. I'll post my results of no longer having a "sidecar" and any adverse effects I encounter (I hope none!).

With the release of the Slimline3, are they moving that data stream off 119 (perhaps to 99/103) or is there some reason they would keep it there?


----------



## Jeremy W

syphix said:


> With the release of the Slimline3, are they moving that data stream off 119 (perhaps to 99/103) or is there some reason they would keep it there?


The guide data is already at 101, but when you're using a 5LNB dish and viewing programming from 103, you're not getting anything from 101 at all. So they had to replicate the guide data at 119 so that the receiver would be able to see it while you're watching programming from 103. The SL3 puts 101 in place of 119 in the stack plan, so the receiver will always be able to see 101, and thus the guide data.


----------



## syphix

Jeremy W said:


> The SL3 puts 101 in place of 119 in the stack plan, so the receiver will always be able to see 101, and thus the guide data.


The SWM does the same thing as the SL3?


----------



## Tom Robertson

syphix said:


> The SWM does the same thing as the SL3?


To a degree. The SWM has one channel dedicated to the Guide data transponder on 101. Less than the whole 101 stack plan, but you have the important part of the concept. 

Remember, there are a whole lot of SL5 dishes out there. Guide data will be on 119 for a long time as near as I can tell. 

And for a fair amount of time there will be SD locals on 119 who will need guide data from 119.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

What you guys discussing is misinterpretation came from some not-so-technical CSR to one member here. 
So far APG data spooling from 101W for 101W/99W/103W, but for populate APG for 72.5W/95W/110W/119W you'll need good signal from specific tpn of corresponding sat. BTW, APG chunks locate on 101W for LiL also, plus there are a few transponders at 101W carry parts of APG.


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> So far APG data spooling from 101W for 101W/99W/103W, but for populate APG for 72.5W/95W/110W/119W you'll need good signal from specific tpn of corresponding sat.


You're misinterpreting what we're talking about. Yes, guide data for 99/101/103 comes from 101, but it also comes from 119. It has to, because when a receiver is tuned to 103 it can't see 101 anymore. If 119 didn't have the guide data, a receiver that was left on 103 for an extended period of time would eventually lose all of it's guide data.


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


Good work once again!


----------



## smiddy

syphix said:


> Oh, and you can also just remove the "sidecar" if you have an AT-9 dish. The sidecar only picks up 110/119 (as I learned earlier this year when strong wind blew my sidecar off...)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess once the MPEG2's are transferred, I could just remove the whole sidecar and it's arm...hmmm.....I'll make my OWN "Slimline3"!


Awesome picture man! That is a classic photo, one that needs to be saved for posterity.


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> You can't remove the sidecar this week unless you use a SWM for all your receivers. The SL3, SWM, and SWMline all use 101's guide data, but the SL5 dishes still use 119.
> 
> (Also if your SD locals come from 119, you might want your sidecar.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom (or anyone else),

Which scenario describes how the guide data is placed on the satellites that are used to distribute guide data:

1) The guide date is duplicated in its entirety on every transponder on the satellite (implying that the receiver can only receive guide data from the transponder containing the channel that the receiver is tuned to).

2) The guide data is duplicated on one odd and one even transponder on the satellite (implying that the receiver can tune and receive program+guide data simultaneously from more than one transponder at a time (non-DVRs), or more than two transponders at a time (DVRs).

3) The guide data is distributed across many different transponders on the satellite (with the same implication of #2 above).

4) Other????


----------



## jeffwltrs

syphix said:


> If I use an SWM I'm fine, though? Even on the legacy ports on SD DVR's (R15's)? Do R15's et al (i.e., non-MPEG4 receivers) need to see 119 for guide data?
> 
> Lemme see if I have this right:
> 
> IF:
> a) no locals come from 119, and
> b) you use an SWM for HR2x's,
> THEN:
> removal of the "sidecar" will do no harm.
> 
> EDIT (to add): I don't care either way...I'm just curious.


Not that there important, but, what about XM channels?


----------



## curt8403

cartrivision said:


> Tom (or anyone else),
> 
> Which scenario describes how the guide data is placed on the satellites that are used to distribute guide data:
> 
> 1) The guide date is duplicated in its entirety on every transponder on the satellite (implying that the receiver can only receive guide data from the transponder containing the channel that the receiver is tuned to).
> 
> 2) The guide data is duplicated on one odd and one even transponder on the satellite (implying that the receiver can tune and receive program+guide data simultaneously from more than one transponder at a time (non-DVRs), or more than two transponders at a time (DVRs).
> 
> 3) The guide data is distributed across many different transponders on the satellite (with the same implication of #2 above).
> 
> 4) Other????


I assume Option 2 based on my experience


----------



## dcowboy7

jeffwltrs said:


> Not that there important, but, what about XM channels?


blasphemy....i :heart: xm.


----------



## Christopher Gould

evan_s said:


> Other than the HD signals already announced to be mirrored in Mpeg 4 by the end of the month there is no reason your average HD subscriber needs to see 110/119. A standard SD customer only needs to see 101 unless their locals are on 119 or 72.5. 72.5 is going away and indications seem to be they will be handled by 99 or 103 using mpeg4. 110/119 is most likely going to be taking over the international load once the mpeg2 mirrors get shut off. Keep in mind that between 110 and 119 DirecTV has around half a DBS allocation. Most of this bandwidth is currently used up by mpeg2 hd channels with the remainder being locals on spots and the spanish channels.
> 
> The Slimline 3 is already set to start deployment by the end of the month which was how I knew the mpeg4 mirrors would be up by the end of the month before this press release.
> 
> DirecTV has TONS of bandwidth at 99/101/103. They have the full dbs slot at 101 and the full allocation for Ka at both 99 and 103. The Ka allocation has 2 500mhz blocks at both slots. In addition to having 2 500mhz slots the ka bands also don't have fixed transponder sizes allowing DirecTV to use fewer larger transponders which leads to more usable bandwidth from the 500mhz blocks compared to DBS. Combine that with newer encoding systems used on the Ka sats and the Mpeg4 compression and DirecTV has plenty of bandwidth to play with at those slots.
> 
> I expect that by the time DirecTV has filled up the 2500mhz of bandwidth they have at 99/101/103 currently BSS will be a reality adding another 800-1200mhz for DirecTV at these same 3 slots (400mhz at 2 or 3 slots).


D* could also add the 500mhz Ka at 101 if the want too


----------



## Jeremy W

curt8403 said:


> I assume Option 2 based on my experience


Yep.


----------



## syphix

jeffwltrs said:


> Not that there important, but, what about XM channels?


Other than the Spanish channels that you don't get with a normal subscription (i.e., requires a Spanish programming package), they're all on 101.

PDF link:
http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14425&d=1214793880

According to that PDF, the only channels I'd lose are 871 (Aguila), 873 (no longer available), 874 (Vibra), 875 (Caricia), and 876 (Viva) -- none of which I get in my current subscription anyway. I would still get 872 (Caliente), the only "free" Spanish channel: it's on 101.


----------



## dcowboy7

no one has posted in 21 minutes....whats the deal ?


----------



## jeffwltrs

dcowboy7 said:


> no one has posted in 21 minutes....whats the deal ?


They are watching HD PPV's!


----------



## BEP1030

I'm currently watching FSNNW 687.1 (Mariner VS. Rangers) and the PQ is the best I've ever seen suggesting the game is being broadcasting in MPEG-4 format. Anyone out there seeing the difference?


----------



## jeffwltrs

It does look very good! But, I'm more than 10 feet away!


----------



## Jeremy W

BEP1030 said:


> I'm currently watching FSNNW 687.1 (Mariner VS. Rangers) and the PQ is the best I've ever seen suggesting the game is being broadcasting in MPEG-4 format. Anyone out there seeing the difference?


687-1 has been MPEG4 from D10 since day one.


----------



## syphix

BEP1030 said:


> I'm currently watching FSNNW 687.1 (Mariner VS. Rangers) and the PQ is the best I've ever seen suggesting the game is being broadcasting in MPEG-4 format. Anyone out there seeing the difference?


Um...yes....687-1 was already known to be MPEG4...along with every other FSN/"RSN"...


----------



## DodgerKing

I wish you guys could see ESPN mpeg4. Man it is much better than their current mpeg2 feed. 

Currently watching it on 9323.


----------



## loudo

Is it my TV, or is the picture quality better on many of the SD stations lately?


----------



## jeffwltrs

DodgerKing said:


> I wish you guys could see ESPN mpeg4. Man it is much better than their current mpeg2 feed.
> 
> Currently watching it on 9323.


Keep rubbing it in! I get EI and can get a black screen! I bet you are correct about PQ!


----------



## mgtr

Help me out here -- if D* just willy-nilly switches a channel from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, then aren't the people with MPEG-2 equipment only shut out of getting that channel? If it doesn't work this way, how does it work?


----------



## Jeremy W

mgtr said:


> Help me out here -- if D* just willy-nilly switches a channel from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, then aren't the people with MPEG-2 equipment only shut out of getting that channel? If it doesn't work this way, how does it work?


Everyone with old MPEG2 HD equipment will continue to get the channels in the 70s for a little while longer. MPEG4 subscribers will get them, as they currently do, on the real channel numbers with increased quality.


----------



## bobnielsen

mgtr said:


> Help me out here -- if D* just willy-nilly switches a channel from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4, then aren't the people with MPEG-2 equipment only shut out of getting that channel? If it doesn't work this way, how does it work?


That's why they have been aggressively trying to get them to upgrade (including new free receivers).


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.


Sixto, thanks for the info on this, I was a little confused as I thought we already had 20+ HD RSN's already. So you're saying we're going to get 23 full time HD RSN's then?

The only question I have (and sorry if this has been asked already in the other thread, I haven't had a chance to read the 11 pages over there yet) is can the current HR's output 1080p, or will we have to get new equipment?

Thanks


----------



## curt8403

theratpatrol said:


> Sixto, thanks for the info on this, I was a little confused as I thought we already had 20+ HD RSN's already. So you're saying we're going to get 23 full time HD RSN's then?
> 
> The only question I have (and sorry if this has been asked already in the other thread, I haven't had a chance to read the 11 pages over there yet) is can the current HR's output 1080p, or will we have to get new equipment?
> 
> Thanks


they will not do 1080P


----------



## Jeremy W

theratpatrol said:


> we're going to get 23 full time HD RSN's then?


Yes.


theratpatrol said:


> can the current HR's output 1080p, or will we have to get new equipment?


The current belief is that they can, and new equipment will not be needed. But there is no solid evidence.


----------



## cartrivision

jeffwltrs said:


> Not that there important, but, what about XM channels?


Which brings up another point, with the Sirius buyout of XM approved by the FCC last Friday, I wonder if those channels will at some point change to Sirius channels, or go back to being from some other (not sat-rad) provider.


----------



## loudo

Jeremy W said:


> Everyone with old MPEG2 HD equipment will continue to get the channels in the 70s for a little while longer. MPEG4 subscribers will get them, as they currently do, on the real channel numbers with increased quality.


They have been working on getting all of the old MPG2 HD receivers (H10 & HR10 and older) out of circulation for some time now. I am sure they are close to doing it by now.


----------



## Jeremy W

cartrivision said:


> Which brings up another point, with the Sirius buyout of XM approved by the FCC last Friday, I wonder if those channels will at some point change to Sirius channels, or go back to being from some other (not sat-rad) provider.


Sirius did not "buy out" XM, they merged. The XM service is not going away, the two services will be combined.


----------



## Jeremy W

loudo said:


> They have been working on getting all of the old MPG2 HD receivers (H10 & HR10 and older) out of circulation for some time now. I am sure they are close to doing it by now.


They definitely are, and I can't see MPEG2 HD lasting past the end of the year.


----------



## curt8403

Jeremy W said:


> They definitely are, and I can't see MPEG2 HD lasting past the end of the year.


I tend to think that any mpeg2 units left will eventually have a rather smashing party


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!


Searched around a bit....and it sounds like D* will be "inflating" the numbers a bit with HD PPV's, just to get to 130...
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1702791&postcount=375


Satelliteracer said:


> The additional ones in August will be things like more pay per view HD channels and such, or anything last minute that will be added that wasn't ready in time for the release (if anything).


Color me disappointed if that's true...


----------



## cartrivision

Jeremy W said:


> Yes.
> 
> The current belief is that they can, and new equipment will not be needed. But there is no solid evidence.


There is pretty solid evidence that the chipset in the HD DVRs can output 1080p/24 and 1080p/30 but not 1080p/60.


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Searched around a bit....and it sounds like D* will be "inflating" the numbers a bit with HD PPV's, just to get to 130...
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1702791&postcount=375
> 
> Color me disappointed if that's true...


Would be alot of PPV. I've now assumed 7 based on P. Smith's data. Said 6 earlier today but left out Movie's Now. Even with 7, that's 16 other new channels. Unless we're missing some unknown piece of information.


----------



## syphix

Sixto said:


> Would be alot of PPV. I've now assumed 7 based on P. Smith's data. Said 6 earlier today but left out Movie's Now. Even with 7, that's 16 other new channels. Unless we're missing some unknown piece of information.


That's what has me both scratching and shaking my head...I _really_ hope they aren't adding *19* PPV HD's...that would be a waste, in ANYONE'S book.

My only hopes (right now) are that Satelliteracer doesn't know of other channels coming on board (because he works in the sports channels, right?)...or is not telling us something...


----------



## cartrivision

Jeremy W said:


> Sirius did not "buy out" XM, they merged. The XM service is not going away, the two services will be combined.


Well, given the fact that XM shareholders are going to be given 4.6 shares of Sirius stock for their XM stock, I'd call it a buyout, but it's all just semantics, and calling it a merger or a buyout won't change the fact that the current Sirius CEO is going to be the CEO of the "merged" companies.

While nothing that is branded as "XM" right now is going to go away immediately, eventually most or all of the music stations will be from one common source under the control of Sirius, even though they will have to be simulcast on both systems for many years to come.


----------



## hdgreg

Am I "high"? I see Espn news in hd....is this new?:sure:


----------



## Sixto

hdgreg said:


> Am I "high"? I see Espn news in hd....is this new?:sure:


Was new on April 2nd.


----------



## DarinC

So maybe you aren't high now, but were up until now.


----------



## hdgreg

Sixto said:


> Was new on April 2nd.


I knew it! Eating "Cherry Garcia" gets me every time...:lol:


----------



## JayPSU

Anyone catch the Indians game on STO HD? I went to MLB EI and got it there tonight and it looked FABULOUS! Have they already started the conversion to mpeg 4, or am I just nuts?


----------



## Alan Gordon

JayPSU said:


> Anyone catch the Indians game on STO HD? I went to MLB EI and got it there tonight and it looked FABULOUS! Have they already started the conversion to mpeg 4, or am I just nuts?


No... they started the MPEG4 conversion 2 years ago.... with a large amount done last Fall! 

~Alan


----------



## Newshawk

syphix said:


> That's what has me both scratching and shaking my head...I _really_ hope they aren't adding *19* PPV HD's...that would be a waste, in ANYONE'S book.


Consider this, syphix... those PPV channels can also be considered placeholders for future national HD channels.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Newshawk said:


> Consider this, syphix... those PPV channels can also be considered placeholders for future national HD channels.


That's what I'm hoping!

The PPV channels will be added on the 14th, and on the 15th, we'll have some more HD channels! 

~Alan


----------



## syphix

Newshawk said:


> Consider this, syphix... those PPV channels can also be considered placeholders for future national HD channels.


I understand that (and they hope -- probably -- will be)...but it's a sneaky, weak way to get to "130 HD channels", IMO. A few PPV HD's, sure...but 19??


----------



## Jeremy W

cartrivision said:


> There is pretty solid evidence that the chipset in the HD DVRs can output 1080p/24 and 1080p/30 but not 1080p/60.


There was also solid evidence that it couldn't decode two MPEG4 streams, but that was later disproven as well. After that whole thing, I prefer to err on the side of caution until we have real proof, as in we can see it working.


----------



## steveken

syphix said:


> This was back in April which (in Minnesota) is still "winter"...especially this year! It didn't warm up until early/mid JUNE!!
> 
> BTW, it's 84° now...and humid as hell.


Aww, poor poor guy. I'm sorry you don't get the 100+ degree days like we do.  I looked on our local news at 6 and it still said 100 for the temp by their bug. I WISH I lived up there. hehehe


----------



## steveken

syphix said:


> If I use an SWM I'm fine, though? Even on the legacy ports on SD DVR's (R15's)? Do R15's et al (i.e., non-MPEG4 receivers) need to see 119 for guide data?
> 
> Lemme see if I have this right:
> 
> IF:
> a) no locals come from 119, and
> b) you use an SWM for HR2x's,
> THEN:
> removal of the "sidecar" will do no harm.
> 
> EDIT (to add): I don't care either way...I'm just curious.


Are R15's worth a crap? I found someone selling one for $50. Also, and this is actually somewhat on topic for once, will these non-mpeg4 receivers actually work or be worth anything in the near future? Or will they be turning off everything to get it all to mpeg4?

And Tom said "Since the R15 won't tune to 110/119, yes your summary is spot on." So, since my SD locals are on 119, then the R15 would be kinda crappy? (Assuming that it would even work in the future. I am so confused as to whether or not boxes like the R15 will work.)


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> will these non-mpeg4 receivers actually work or be worth anything in the near future? Or will they be turning off everything to get it all to mpeg4?


SD will remain MPEG2 for 5-10 years at least.


----------



## steveken

BEP1030 said:


> I'm currently watching FSNNW 687.1 (Mariner VS. Rangers) and the PQ is the best I've ever seen suggesting the game is being broadcasting in MPEG-4 format. Anyone out there seeing the difference?


I was wanting to see the Cards v. Braves game in HD, but FSN Midwest (the only other one I could get besides FSN SW) only had it in SD. I went to the channel that was showing it in HD that I *knew* I couldn't get and had it search for another version. It came up with Sports South (one of the TEST channels) with it on it. It was THE BEST HD baseball game I believe I have ever seen coming from a Fox Sports HD channel. I am going to love mpeg4 RSN's!


----------



## steveken

syphix said:


> Um...yes....687-1 was already known to be MPEG4...along with every other FSN/"RSN"...


Are you sure about that? I don't remember any other games looking anywhere as good as the ones I have seen on the TEST channels (I have only seen 2 so far on there).


----------



## mgtr

So, considering everything, I did good selling my MPEG-2 HD receivers on eBay some time ago? Good to hear that validation. Also nice to have the extra $$$.


----------



## Newshawk

Tom Robertson said:


> Since the R15 won't tune to 110/119, yes your summary is spot on.


Tom, don't you mean "Since the R15 won't tune to the _103/99_, yes your summary is spot on..."


----------



## evan_s

Christopher Gould said:


> D* could also add the 500mhz Ka at 101 if the want too


KA at 101 is at least partially being used for backhalling but could someday be used to add more bandwidth. All current indications are that it would require a new LNB but then again so would BSS. Also it would be 2 500mhz blocks at 101 assuming they used it all for broadcasting to home viewers.


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> Are you sure about that? I don't remember any other games looking anywhere as good as the ones I have seen on the TEST channels (I have only seen 2 so far on there).


Yes, all of the HD RSNs are MPEG4, and always have been.


----------



## steveken

Then what did they do to make the picture look so much better? I only keep talking about this because it honestly looks way way better than it used to. Of course, I guess I could be on something right now, but I don't think so. I just really like the way these channels look, just seem to pop more.


----------



## Drew2k

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> Quick review of today re: D11 ...
> 
> 1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.
> 
> 2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.
> 
> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.
> 
> 4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.
> 
> 5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's.
> 
> So we have 35 new.
> 
> Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.
> 
> Minus 6 HD PPV gives us 17 new.
> 
> And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.
> 
> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


Based on a later comment by SatelliteRacer in the PR thread, it sounds like the "13 channels of HD goodness!" could actually climb up anywhere from 14 to 19. SatRacer said it's very easy to add HD PPV channels and remove them for other content as it becomes available. (Paraphrased.)


----------



## Jeremy W

steveken said:


> Then what did they do to make the picture look so much better?


I can't see it, so I can't tell you.


----------



## Alan Gordon

steveken said:


> Then what did they do to make the picture look so much better? I only keep talking about this because it honestly looks way way better than it used to. Of course, I guess I could be on something right now, but I don't think so. I just really like the way these channels look, just seem to pop more.


Has anybody offered you any candy or brownies today? 

It could be that the channels are currently less compressed than the RSNs have been on D10 (since September/October anyway)...

I guess it's possible they could have gotten some better encoders as well...

~Alan


----------



## Ed Campbell

DarinC said:


> I thought it was 42?


Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything...eh?


----------



## l8er

Jeremy W said:


> SD will remain MPEG2 for 5-10 years at least.


 Why is that? (Is there a link to some info to support that idea?) I would think there'd be a point where the bandwidth being used (MPEG2 vs. MPEG4) would be more valuable than the cost getting an MPEG4 capable receiver to every sub.


----------



## Jeremy W

l8er said:


> Why is that? (Is there a link to some info to support that idea?) I would think there'd be a point where the bandwidth being used (MPEG2 vs. MPEG4) would be more valuable than the cost getting an MPEG4 capable receiver to every sub.


MPEG4's efficiency goes way down as you lower the bitrate. There are *a lot* of SD receivers out there, and it's simply not worth replacing them.


----------



## cartrivision

l8er said:


> Why is that? (Is there a link to some info to support that idea?) I would think there'd be a point where the bandwidth being used (MPEG2 vs. MPEG4) would be more valuable than the cost getting an MPEG4 capable receiver to every sub.


It will take that long to replace all of the existing MPEG2-only receivers with MPEG4 capable receivers, even with an active effort to do so.


----------



## cartrivision

Jeremy W said:


> MPEG4's efficiency goes way down as you lower the bitrate. There are *a lot* of SD receivers out there, and it's simply not worth replacing them.


The bandwidth savings of MPEG4 over MPEG2 doesn't really matter. Regardless of what that ratio is, the savings that comes from offering a channel in MPEG4 only will be 100% of the MPEG2 channel bandwidth, because they will simply shut the MPEG2 channel off and let the subscriber tune the HD MPEG4 mirror of the channel using a receiver like the R22 that displays it in SD only.


----------



## cartrivision

Jeremy W said:


> There was also solid evidence that it couldn't decode two MPEG4 streams, but that was later disproven as well. After that whole thing, I prefer to err on the side of caution until we have real proof, as in we can see it working.


I've never seen any solid evidence that said the chipset couldn't decode two MPEG4 streams, just some proclamations from a few self appointed "experts". On the other hand, my "solid evidence" comes directly from the Broadcom datasheets for their chipsets. That combined with DirecTV's announcement that they plan to start offering 1080p/24 content leads me to believe that all that is required to take advantage of the current chipset's 1080p/24 capability is software update to the current receivers.


----------



## Tom Robertson

cartrivision said:


> I've never seen any solid evidence that said the chipset couldn't decode two MPEG4 streams, just some proclamations from a few self appointed "experts". On the other hand, my "solid evidence" comes directly from the Broadcom datasheets for their chipsets. That combined with DirecTV's announcement that they plan to start offering 1080p/24 content leads me to believe that all that is required to take advantage of the current chipset's 1080p/24 capability is software update to the current receivers.


Play nice.

There were versions of the chipset documents that flat out said the chips could only handle 1 MPEG4 stream or two MPEG2 streams. Our Doug Brott found them. We didn't need self appointed "experts" either.

Subsequent versions of that document have removed that specific chart.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

l8er said:


> Why is that? (Is there a link to some info to support that idea?) I would think there'd be a point where the bandwidth being used (MPEG2 vs. MPEG4) would be more valuable than the cost getting an MPEG4 capable receiver to every sub.


Why yes, this topic has been covered at least 3 times in various threads (and more than once in this thread) .

Here is a link to the previous discussion that has been culled from this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133403

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## John4924

Sixto said:


> Now that things have calmed down ...
> 
> Quick review of today re: D11 ...
> 
> 1) The press release says "beginning 8/14/2008" ... that could mean the channels go "live" at the usual 6am on Wednesday (8/13) and then 8/14 is the first full day or maybe they're really launching on 8/14. We'll wait and see.
> 
> 2) "will launch more than 30" and "bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130". This means the answer is 35 new HD channels because today we're at 95 and on 8/14 we'll be at 130 exactly. 35 new channels.
> 
> 3) "additional 23 RSN's in HD 24 hours a day". Satelliteracer says this is a typo and it's a total of 23 RSN's. Today we have 11. That would mean 12 more. P Smith's discovery last week was 12 new RSN's on D11 so looks like the answer is 12 new full-time RSN's. It matches exactly.
> 
> 4) "by the end of this month" for the legacy 9 HD channels. This also matches the P Smith list. The 9 were already in the 95.
> 
> 5) "additional ... pay per view". This may also match the P Smith list. There were 6 new HD PPV's.
> 
> So we have 35 new.
> 
> Minus 12 RSN's gives us 23 new.
> 
> Minus 6 HD PPV gives us 17 new.
> 
> And the 8 DNS HD were already in the 95 so still 17.
> 
> *And the 9 legacy were already in the 95 so still 17.*
> They mention 4 others: Showtime Extreme HD, Showtime Showcase HD, Planet Green HD, ABC Family HD.
> 
> That brings us to 13 unaccounted for "new" HD.
> 
> 13 channels of HD goodness!
> 
> Assuming the math above is correct ...


Sixto, just one question. I read somewhere else that the 9 legacy channels would now be simulcast in mpeg2 and mpeg4. Don't you have to subtract the 9 legacy because they are now a "new" channel so to speak?

I don't know how all of this stuff works, but it seems to me that until the time they shut down the mpeg2 version, you have to count the mpeg4 as "new".

Am I thinking right? It is early in the morning. 

Thanks & cheers,
John


----------



## Sixto

John4924 said:


> Sixto, just one question. I read somewhere else that the 9 legacy channels would now be simulcast in mpeg2 and mpeg4. Don't you have to subtract the 9 legacy because they are now a "new" channel so to speak?
> 
> I don't know how all of this stuff works, but it seems to me that until the time they shut down the mpeg2 version, you have to count the mpeg4 as "new".
> 
> Am I thinking right? It is early in the morning.
> 
> Thanks & cheers,
> John


Very much doubt that any logic would count the MPEG2 and MPEG4 of the same channel as two channels. We're good.

There will be a short transition period.


----------



## Jon D

Sixto said:


> Very much doubt that any logic would count the MPEG2 and MPEG4 of the same channel as two channels. We're good.
> 
> There will be a short transition period.


I think he was trying to say that since the MPEG-2 channels are going to MPEG-4 they will take up 9 slots on D11. And was asking if we need to count those as 9 of the 30 or 35 new channels. I would say no. But, they would certainly be 9 out of the total capacity of D11.


----------



## Jon D

Jon D said:


> I think he was trying to say that since the MPEG-2 channels are going to MPEG-4 they will take up 9 slots on D11. And was asking if we need to count those as 9 of the 30 or 35 new channels. I would say no. But, they would certainly be 9 out of the total capacity of D11.


One thing I've been wondering. Is there anything that prevents an MPEG-4 signal from being shot through the existing ku sats? Could some MPEG-4 HD be put up at 110 or 119 at some point?


----------



## VARTV

cartrivision said:


> Well, given the fact that XM shareholders are going to be given 4.6 shares of Sirius stock for their XM stock, I'd call it a buyout, but it's all just semantics, and calling it a merger or a buyout won't change the fact that the current Sirius CEO is going to be the CEO of the "merged" companies.
> 
> While nothing that is branded as "XM" right now is going to go away immediately, eventually most or all of the music stations will be from one common source under the control of Sirius, even though they will have to be simulcast on both systems for many years to come.


The merge was completed overnight. New company name is Sirius XM Radio, Inc with a stock symbol of... SIRI


----------



## Sixto

Jon D said:


> I think he was trying to say that since the MPEG-2 channels are going to MPEG-4 they will take up 9 slots on D11. And was asking if we need to count those as 9 of the 30 or 35 new channels. I would say no. But, they would certainly be 9 out of the total capacity of D11.


Yep.

9 as part of the 95 channels, and 9 as part of 130. Unlikely that the count would be any other way.


----------



## egould

I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already. When they start mirroring the legacy MPEG-2 channels in MPEG-4, will the MPEG-4 capable receivers simply keep the channels in the 70's as MPEG-2 and the mirrored channels as MPEG-4? For example, will 73 (ESPNHD) be MPEG-2 and 206 MPEG-4? Or will the receivers handle this in some different way? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Sixto

egould said:


> I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already. When they start mirroring the legacy MPEG-2 channels in MPEG-4, will the MPEG-4 capable receivers simply keep the channels in the 70's as MPEG-2 and the mirrored channels as MPEG-4? For example, will 73 (ESPNHD) be MPEG-2 and 206 MPEG-4? Or will the receivers handle this in some different way? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks for the info.


Yep, that's what is expected. 70's MPEG2. non-70's MPEG4. Then 70's go away after transition period. And HDNet channels find another higher channel number most likely.


----------



## bwaldron

Jon D said:


> Could some MPEG-4 HD be put up at 110 or 119 at some point?


Yes.


----------



## egould

Sixto said:


> Yep, that's what is expected. 70's MPEG2. non-70's MPEG4. Then 70's go away after transition period. And HDNet channels find another higher channel number most likely.


Thanks, Sixto! Now I will know what to look for tomorrow at 6 a.m.!


----------



## mystic7

Other than saving drive space on a DVR is there any other benefit to mpeg4 over mpeg2? Visually speaking, that is?

Will Directv use less compression resulting in even fewer sparklies, or will they use the same amount, thereby negating any visual benefits but increasing the number of programs that will fit on a DVR? Sorry for the legal speak, I'm practicing to be a fake lawyer


----------



## syphix

mystic7 said:


> Other than saving drive space on a DVR is there any other benefit to mpeg4 over mpeg2? Visually speaking, that is?


Oh, yes. Much.


----------



## DarinC

Sixto said:


> Yep, that's what is expected. 70's MPEG2. non-70's MPEG4. Then 70's go away after transition period. And HDNet channels find another higher channel number most likely.


That's what I would have expected too, but Chris Blount posted a slightly different scenario:



Chris Blount said:


> They are going to be simulcasted.
> 
> MPEG-4 equipment will tune the MPEG-4 version.
> MPEG-2 equipment will tune the MPEG-2 version, until they are shutdown at an undetermined future date.


Not saying either one is right, or that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Just adding it for informational purposes.


----------



## mcbeevee

Sixto said:


> And HDNet channels find another higher channel number most likely.


Wonder why Directv did not reserve a couple of higher channel numbers for HDNet and HDNet Movies like they did for HD Theater (76/281)?


----------



## gregjones

DarinC said:


> That's what I would have expected too, but Chris Blount posted a slightly different scenario:
> 
> Not saying either one is right, or that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Just adding it for informational purposes.


I would have expected the scenaria where all MPEG2 channels (showing up on all channel numbers) would be replaced by an MPEG4 stream on MPEG4-capable equipment. Since these are mapped and not discrete channels, that would make sense.

The HDNet channels are a little different in that they don't exist outside of the 70s. If they built a new channel number for them that was completely separate, wouldn't that kill the ability to move scheduled recordings to the new MPEG4 stream automatically?


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> I'm not sure I follow you. You think there will be something left on 110/119 that will require them to continue using the SL-5 for most installs?


Yes. With D11, they have enough CONUS capacity to meet their stated national HD goals for 2008 and little more. In order to deliver a full palette of SD and HD national channels as required by their packaging strategy, they'll need a good chunk of the CONUS capacity that D12 brings to the table for SD programming.


----------



## DarinC

gregjones said:


> I would have expected the scenaria where all MPEG2 channels (showing up on all channel numbers) would be replaced by an MPEG4 stream on MPEG4-capable equipment. Since these are mapped and not discrete channels, that would make sense.


I dont' see how it matters either way... the MPEG2 channels will remain for some period, but there will be a new MPEG4 stream. I don't see how re-mapping both channel numbers to the MPEG4 stream conditionally based on the hardware is any easier than remapping just one of them.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> Yes. With D11, they have enough CONUS capacity to meet their stated national HD goals for 2008 and little more. In order to deliver a full palette of SD and HD national channels as required by their packaging strategy, they'll need a good chunk of the CONUS capacity that D12 brings to the table for SD programming.


I'm still not following your point. Relatively speaking, they don't even have a lot of bandwidth at 110/119 (less than one full Ku slot). Said another way, they have PLENTY of specialized content (international and small market LIL) to fill up 110/119. So given that they could completely fill up those slots with content that the vast majority of their customers don't need, why wouldn't they be able to use the SL-3 for the vast majority of their new installs?


----------



## Sixto

DarinC said:


> That's what I would have expected too, but Chris Blount posted a slightly different scenario:


There's a few scenarios:

Channels just in the 70's (HDNet Movies, HDNet)
Channels that are both in the 70's, and in SD and HD outside the 70's (ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, HBO, Showtime)
Channels in the 70's and only HD outside the 70's (Universal, HD Theater).
Also just noticed that HBO and Showtime which also had another HD channel at 509 and 543 are now gone.

The expectation was:

For scenario #1, there would be a new non-70's channel created and the 70's would remain MPEG2 during transition, and the non-70's channels would be MPEG4.
For scenario #2, the 70's would remain MPEG2 during transition, and the non-70's channels would be MPEG4 for HD. Both SD and HD have the same channel number.
For scenario #3, the 70's would remain MPEG2 during transition, and the non-70's channels would be MPEG4.
Based on Chris' feedback, maybe there's now some new way to only show the MPEG4 format for 70's and non-70's. Actually, was hopeful that the 70's would remain in MPEG2 during the transition period so that we could see the difference .


----------



## Brian Hanasky

I posted this in another thread but thought it may be relevant here as well. I noticed this morning that starting Wed at 6am the Big Ten Network HD will be moving from 220 (i think that's what it is on now) to 610.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Brian Hanasky said:


> I posted this in another thread but thought it may be relevant here as well. I noticed this morning that starting Wed at 6am the Big Ten Network HD will be moving from 220 (i think that's what it is on now) to 610.


Thanks for the heads up


----------



## Sixto

Brian Hanasky said:


> I posted this in another thread but thought it may be relevant here as well. I noticed this morning that starting Wed at 6am the Big Ten Network HD will be moving from 220 (i think that's what it is on now) to 610.


Yep, schedule was posted: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4670018


----------



## syphix

Brian Hanasky said:


> I posted this in another thread but thought it may be relevant here as well. I noticed this morning that starting Wed at 6am the Big Ten Network HD will be moving from 220 (i think that's what it is on now) to 610.


It was already listed on DirecTV's website, along with many other channel changes that have happened or are scheduled to happen.
http://www.directv.com/channelchanges


----------



## evan_s

harsh said:


> Yes. With D11, they have enough CONUS capacity to meet their stated national HD goals for 2008 and little more. In order to deliver a full palette of SD and HD national channels as required by their packaging strategy, they'll need a good chunk of the CONUS capacity that D12 brings to the table for SD programming.


As I said in my last post DirecTv has a very small amount of bandwidth relatively speaking on 110/119 when compared to what they have at 99/101/103. 110/119 combined are about half a 500mhz block and 99/101/103 total out to 5 full 500mhz blocks with most of it being the new Ka sats which are more efficient. We already know the only mainstream conus content currently coming from 110/119 will be mirrored to 99c by the end of the month from the press release. Once the mpeg2hd mirrors on 110/119 are turned off it is not expected to be used for main stream content. DirecTV has already told installers they are rolling out a 3lnb dish that will only be able to see 99/101/103 to coincide with the mpeg4 mirrors at the end of the month. ALL of directv's current standard CONUS SD is already coming from 101. The only reason a SD customer would need to see something other than 101 would be for locals or foreign language content.

If 5 full orbital slots isn't enough for DirecTV to do what it needs to do then Dish must sure be in trouble.


----------



## Sixto

Similar ... still well over a day old ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE133)
1 32729U 08013A   08210.29016131 -.00000127 +00000-0 +00000-0 0 01330
2 32729 000.0199 099.3301 0001910 138.6270 073.5754 01.00270730001425

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[SIZE="3"][B]07-28-2008 06:57:49[/B][/SIZE]
Orbit # at Epoch	142
Inclination		0.020
RA of A. Node		99.330
Eccentricity		0.0001910
Argument of Perigee	138.627
Revs per day		1.00270730
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B][SIZE="3"]35 779 x 35 795 km[/SIZE][/B]
Element number / age	0133 / 1 day(s)

Lon			[B][SIZE="3"]99.2111° W[/SIZE][/B]
Lat			0.0292° S
Alt (km)		35 784.090

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#133(07-28-2008 06:57:49) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+19.5 hours,at 130.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#132(07-27-2008 11:26:19) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#129(07-21-2008 14:24:00) 35,778 x 35,794 km (+147.6hours,at 123.9 days,  99.21°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## harsh

DarinC said:


> Relatively speaking, they don't even have a lot of bandwidth at 110/119 (less than one full Ku slot).


D12 only adds half a slot worth of bandwidth to the mix. Unless you want them to top out at 200 national HD channels, they're going to need more.

I grant you that 110W is going to be a ghost town, but there is quite a mixture of SD LIL hiding out at 119W from a relatively large number of markets. To replace 119W, there will be a great number of widely spread subscribers that will need to be upgraded. Moving the national HD off of 110W and 119W didn't lighten the load 101W.


----------



## DarinC

harsh said:


> D12 only adds half a slot worth of bandwidth to the mix. Unless you want them to top out at 200 national HD channels, they're going to need more.


D12 is irrelevent to the discussion. That has nothing to do with whether or not the SL3 can be used for the majority of installs, as opposed to using the SL5. The SL3 can see D12.



> There is quite a mixture of SD LIL hiding out at 119W from a relatively large number of markets. To replace 119W, there will be a great number of widely spread subscribers that will need to be upgraded. Moving the national HD off of 110W and 119W didn't lighten the load 101W.


No one is talking about _replacing_ 119. The question is: whether or not the content _left _on 110/119 after they move the content they are planning to move off of it will be needed by a large percentage of DirecTV customers. If not, the the majority of new installs can use the SL3. The point that I made that you were refutting was that the ability to use the dish which is less expensive and has fewer LOS limitations is an incentive for moving mainstream content off of 110/119. I still fail to see what D12 and their total HD capacity in the future has to do with any of that.


----------



## d max82

harsh said:


> Moving the national HD off of 110W and 119W didn't lighten the load 101W.


Last I checked there was still 2 HD event channels that came from 101, back about 2 UFCs ago. Moving these could lighten the load a bit at 101.


----------



## d max82

delete


----------



## d max82

delete


----------



## d max82

delete


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jon D said:


> One thing I've been wondering. Is there anything that prevents an MPEG-4 signal from being shot through the existing ku sats? Could some MPEG-4 HD be put up at 110 or 119 at some point?


Channels #391, #392, #397, and #399 are MPEG4 on the KU satellites now!

~Alan


----------



## mcbeevee

Satelliteracer has posted the changes for Thursday. New channel numbers are 306 (HDNet) and 552 (HDNet Movies).

HD Changes on July 31st


----------



## dcowboy7

d max82 said:


> Last I checked there was still 2 HD event channels that came from 101, back about 2 UFCs ago. Moving these could lighten the load a bit at 101.





d max82 said:


> Last I checked there was still 2 HD event channels that came from 101, back about 2 UFCs ago. Moving these could lighten the load a bit at 101.





d max82 said:


> Last I checked there was still 2 HD event channels that came from 101, back about 2 UFCs ago. Moving these could lighten the load a bit at 101.





d max82 said:


> Last I checked there was still 2 HD event channels that came from 101, back about 2 UFCs ago. Moving these could lighten the load a bit at 101.


1 more time !


----------



## syphix

dcowboy7 said:


> 1 more time !


Hmmmm....you're right...

94, 95 & 98 all come from 101. (according to the latest transponder maps posted here)


----------



## Sixto

mcbeevee said:


> Satelliteracer has posted the changes for Thursday. New channel numbers are 306 (HDNet) and 552 (HDNet Movies).
> 
> HD Changes on July 31st


Looks good. Exactly as expected. Off to great start!


----------



## Alan Gordon

dcowboy7 said:


> 1 more time !


He couldn't help it! I did the same thing on another thread. DBSTalk's been having problems since yesterday (I guess due to increased traffic from DirecTV's announcement).

~Alan


----------



## merchione

Sixto said:


> Similar ... still well over a day old ...


Is it almost parked?


----------



## MIAMI1683

merchione said:


> Is it almost parked?


 See Sixto's post aboue #6486. Yes it is parked. Looks like it lights up Thursday morning


----------



## d max82

Alan Gordon said:


> He couldn't help it! I did the same thing on another thread. DBSTalk's been having problems since yesterday (I guess due to increased traffic from DirecTV's announcement).
> 
> ~Alan


HAHA I'll try not to spam the forum with this post.

Syphix pointed out its not just 2 that I thought, but 4 HD channels from 101. While I'd love to see these channels transferred to mpeg4 on d11 and the sd PQ nudged up a bit at 101, I wonder if at least one of these will stay at 101. My reason, the increased resistance to rain fade on the KU side. Theres nothing I'd hate more than to have a house full of people and $55 invested in a PPV fight and have dropout due to the weather.


----------



## merchione

MIAMI1683 said:


> See Sixto's post aboue #6486. Yes it is parked. Looks like it lights up Thursday morning


Thanks..... guess he said it without saying it.


----------



## houskamp

you can always go back and delete your posts


----------



## Alan Gordon

d max82 said:


> Syphix pointed out its not just 2 that I thought, but 4 HD channels from 101. While I'd love to see these channels transferred to mpeg4 on d11 and the sd PQ nudged up a bit at 101, I wonder if at least one of these will stay at 101. My reason, the increased resistance to rain fade on the KU side. Theres nothing I'd hate more than to have a house full of people and $55 invested in a PPV fight and have dropout due to the weather.


If they wanted, they could provide a MPEG4 feed on the KU side (less bandwidth needed), but I suspect they'll simply move it off.

~Alan


----------



## houskamp

On a side note..
Just had a comcast truck pull up in front.. has "most VOD" on the side.. guess they gave up on trying for most HD :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

It's "parked enough," meaning that while the orbit isn't yet perfect, the relative motion is so tiny as to be irrelevant to operation. They've been slowly tweaking it for a bit over a week and will continue to make tiny corrections, but from our perspective we won't notice any difference.


----------



## bruinfever

There was just an earthquake here in Los Angeles and now I'm getting upper 90's on all transponders on 99c...


----------



## henryld

bruinfever said:


> There was just an earthquake here in Los Angeles and now I'm getting upper 90's on all transponders on 99c...


You weren't kidding, about the eathquake, that is.:nono:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

bruinfever said:


> There was just an earthquake here in Los Angeles and now I'm getting upper 90's on all transponders on 99c...


Free alignment... :lol:


----------



## houskamp

Bill is in the mail :lol:


----------



## curt8403

houskamp said:


> On a side note..
> Just had a comcast truck pull up in front.. has "most VOD" on the side.. guess they gave up on trying for most HD :lol:


with their own network the side of the Truck should say 
*IT'S COMCASTIC*


----------



## mbuser

So is Thursday the new Wednesday?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

mbuser said:


> So is Thursday the new Wednesday?


Guess we'll find out...


----------



## ddobson

:eek2:


bruinfever said:


> There was just an earthquake here in Los Angeles and now I'm getting upper 90's on all transponders on 99c...


Sometimes its pays not to tighten the bolts too tight....


----------



## DarinC

On his dish, or on the fault line?


----------



## Christopher Gould

evan_s said:


> KA at 101 is at least partially being used for backhalling but could someday be used to add more bandwidth. All current indications are that it would require a new LNB but then again so would BSS. Also it would be 2 500mhz blocks at 101 assuming they used it all for broadcasting to home viewers.


i could be wrong but i thought i read on here that D* only revieved half of the 101Ka, someone else got the other half.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> On a side note..
> Just had a comcast truck pull up in front.. has "most VOD" on the side.. guess they gave up on trying for most HD :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## evan_s

Christopher Gould said:


> i could be wrong but i thought i read on here that D* only revieved half of the 101Ka, someone else got the other half.


As far as I know all Ka Allocations are for the entire orbital slot but I could be wrong on that too.


----------



## inkahauts

mbuser said:


> So is Thursday the new Wednesday?


I just wonder if Espn 1 & 2 and UHD and TNT will shut down tomorrow for a day like the LA DNS feeds before they fire up on MPEG-4... making us dial in to the channels in the 80's for the day...


----------



## cartrivision

Tom Robertson said:


> Play nice.
> 
> There were versions of the chipset documents that flat out said the chips could only handle 1 MPEG4 stream or two MPEG2 streams. Our Doug Brott found them. We didn't need self appointed "experts" either.
> 
> Subsequent versions of that document have removed that specific chart.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I guess it's all in the way that you read those "Product Brief" data sheets that are on Broadcom's web site. I consider them to be a list highlighting all of the chip's "standard" and "typical use" capabilities, but not necessarily a completely comprehensive list of every possible permutation of what the chip can do.

For instance, despite the removal of that table that might have implied that the MPEG4 decoder could only decode 1 HD MPEG4 stream at a time, there is still no explicit indication on the 7411 or 7401 Product Brief sheets that they are capable of decoding two HD MPEG4 data streams&#8230;. only an indication of the decoder's maximum "encoded bitrate" capacity, which some people with more smarts than me about how these chips can be used might recognize as an indication that the decoding capacity can be used to decode multiple incoming HD MPEG4 streams as long as their combined encoded bitrate doesn't exceed the maximum encoded bitrate for the decoder.


----------



## dennisj00

cartrivision said:


> I guess it's all in the way that you read those "Product Brief" data sheets that are on Broadcom's web site. I consider them to be a list highlighting all of the chip's "standard" and "typical use" capabilities, but not necessarily a completely comprehensive list of every possible permutation of what the chip can do.
> 
> For instance, despite the removal of that table that might have implied that the MPEG4 decoder could only decode 1 HD MPEG4 stream at a time, there is still no explicit indication on the 7411 or 7401 Product Brief sheets that they are capable of decoding two HD MPEG4 data streams&#8230;. only an indication of the decoder's maximum "encoded bitrate" capacity, which some people with more smarts than me about how these chips can be used might recognize as an indication that the decoding capacity can be used to decode multiple incoming HD MPEG4 streams as long as their combined encoded bitrate doesn't exceed the maximum encoded bitrate for the decoder.


Perhaps we'll see the HR3x -- 1080p complete with DLB! That might qualify as 'something better than DLB'!!


----------



## smiddy

So, will DirecTV 11 go live tomorrow morning or not?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> So, will DirecTV 11 go live tomorrow morning or not?


I suspect we'll see some of the first wave tomorrow.....bets on the table.


----------



## smiddy

I think so too...


----------



## syphix

I bet not tomorrow (I know noth-thing!). 

I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## smiddy

Not to be mean, but I hope you are wrong too.


----------



## Steve615

smiddy said:


> So, will DirecTV 11 go live tomorrow morning or not?


The way I see it,there are two ways to know for sure.Check your channel guide at 6 AM EDT tomorrow morning,or check out this site.

http://www.dbstalk.com/


----------



## bobnielsen

Per Satelliteracer, it will be on Thursday.


----------



## smiddy

Steve615 said:


> The way I see it,there are two ways to know for sure.Check your channel guide at 6 AM EDT tomorrow morning,or check out this site.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/


Man, thanks, I wouldn't have tried either but now, you saved me, thanks! :lol:


----------



## mgtr

syphix said:


> (I know noth-thing!).


Well, you can't be all bad, since you know Hogan's Heroes.


----------



## Steve615

smiddy said:


> Man, thanks, I wouldn't have tried either but now, you saved me, thanks! :lol:


:lol: :thats: :lol: 
No problem at all smiddy.Always glad to help out when I can.


----------



## Dolly

Let me make sure I'm still in the ballpark about this--probably not  People just saying "Thursday" is mixing me up. I thought Thursday the 31th of July is when the MPEG2 goes to MPEG4 and that Thursday the 14th of August is when we get some more HD channels. Is that right or have I missed something?


----------



## 66stang351

Dolly said:


> Let me make sure I'm still in the ballpark about this--probably not  People just saying "Thursday" is mixing me up. I thought Thursday the 31th of July is when the MPEG2 goes to MPEG4 and that Thursday the 14th of August is when we get some more HD channels. Is that right or have I missed something?


Right and right.


----------



## Dolly

66stang351 said:


> Right and right.


:hurah: I'm finally right about something :lol:


----------



## trilidar

I'm sure someone's already noticed this and commented, but I can't find anything on it so I'm sharing JIC.

I was up at D* website yesterday and noticed at the top of their HD Channels page their Flash graphic shows two channels I know I'm not getting now: BET HD and MTV2 HD.

Once again, just sharing JIC no one has said anything.

Don't kill the messenger.
tril

PS-- I'd love to include a link, but unfortunately the rules here make it about impossible to contribute. You'll just have to go up there and look around.


----------



## VeniceDre

trilidar said:


> I'm sure someone's already noticed this and commented, but I can't find anything on it so I'm sharing JIC.
> 
> I was up at D* website yesterday and noticed at the top of their HD Channels page their Flash graphic shows two channels I know I'm not getting now: BET HD and MTV2 HD.
> 
> Once again, just sharing JIC no one has said anything.
> 
> Don't kill the messenger.
> tril
> 
> PS-- I'd love to include a link, but unfortunately the rules here make it about impossible to contribute. You'll just have to go up there and look around.


Those two channel icons have been on the DirecTV website since over a week.


----------



## jackm

Just got my Directv guide in the mail and on the page that highlights HD - they mentioned a show on China on the Travel Channel. Could it be coming? - Anyone else read it that way.


----------



## lovswr

Just a few more minutes (maybe). This is like X-mas !!!


----------



## spectrumsp

Anyone see anything new yet?????


----------



## DannyWilson0

just unplugged my 110/119 dish and 206 went dark:nono2: 

gotta wait till tomorrow


----------



## Pop72&9

The only thing I've noticed is channel 301 is no longer in the guide.


----------



## syphix

Nothing new, folks. Try again tomorrow (though I doubt anything "new" tomorrow, other than the MPEG2->MPEG4 conversions).


----------



## DannyWilson0

well to us out here in the middle of the pacific thats huge because for a 5lnb setup you have make your house look like a SETI station. It takes two 1.2Meter dishes one for the 99/101/103 and one for the 110/119. 

see my icon for example


----------



## glindsey

I do see 16 transponders available now on 99(s) where there were only 6 up to now...at least on my system.


----------



## Matt9876

glindsey said:


> I do see 16 transponders available now on 99(s) where there were only 6 up to now...at least on my system.


Thats good news!, things are about to light up all over


----------



## EaglePC

I see clearer HD Channels


----------



## JLucPicard

New HD Channel Lineup - 4/2/08

Is the above thread going to be used as it was with D10, or will there be another "tracking" thread to subscribe to?


----------



## mcbeevee

I had something strange happen this morning. I was watching Starz West (ch 521), and at exactly 6am (est), they started showing the YES network! The YES network is not even part of my channel package. I thought I had accidently changed channels, but the info banner still said ch 521. Changed to another channel, then back to 521, and it was still YES. At 6:05am, the channel went back to normal (Starz West).


----------



## baker60

Last night around 8:30 pm CDT, while watching TNT, my system (H21-00) rebooted and I though the PQ was much better after the reboot. Am I seeing things? I'm not sure. Did anyone else have their system reset on it's on?


----------



## richall01

Pop72&9 said:


> The only thing I've noticed is channel 301 is no longer in the guide.


301 Tv Land is now on 304. 99 HD PPV, The extra HBO HD (509) and Showtime HD (forget channel number) channels are gone.


----------



## groove93

Big 10 HD now on 610, the only thing I've noticed.


----------



## cartrivision

mcbeevee said:


> I had something strange happen this morning. I was watching Starz West (ch 521), and at exactly 6am (est), they started showing the YES network! The YES network is not even part of my channel package. I thought I had accidently changed channels, but the info banner still said ch 521. Changed to another channel, then back to 521, and it was still YES. At 6:05am, the channel went back to normal (Starz West).


Same thing happened here..... programming on ch 521 changed to the YES network feed for about 8 minutes.... so I completely missed McLovin getting punched out in the liquor store. :bonk1:

Evidently at 3am PDT they were switching around channel mappings and transponder feeds and things were out of sync for a short time.

At exactly 3am, my recording of ch 521 ended with the error, "This showing was partially recorded because the channel became unavailable", and at the same time a new recording of ch 521 began that for the first 8 minutes was the feed of YES Network which eventually switched back to the Starz feed.


----------



## syphix

groove93 said:


> Big 10 HD now on 610, the only thing I've noticed.


But BTN alternates are still on 218 (-1) and 219 (-1)?? Odd....why?


----------



## Fatboy72

Maybe it's just me, And it could be, But I believe the SD channels look a little better this morning.


----------



## katzeye

jackm said:


> Just got my Directv guide in the mail and on the page that highlights HD - they mentioned a show on China on the Travel Channel. Could it be coming? - Anyone else read it that way.


Interesting.


----------



## syphix

jackm said:


> Just got my Directv guide in the mail and on the page that highlights HD - they mentioned a show on China on the Travel Channel. Could it be coming? - Anyone else read it that way.


Hmm...interesting...

One wonders why they would list that show in their DirecTV magazine, but didn't feel confident enough to mention it in the coming channels on 8/14 (which, I assume, means it may be turned on AFTER the 14th).

What was the date of the China program?


----------



## DarinC

syphix said:


> One wonders why they would list that show in their DirecTV magazine, but didn't feel confident enough to mention it in the coming channels on 8/14


Doesn't make any less sense than showing MTV2 & BET on the HD crawl online, but not in the coming channels PR. Well, except for the difference that Travel HD *is *something you'd want to advertise. :whatdidid


----------



## jefbal99

syphix said:


> But BTN alternates are still on 218 (-1) and 219 (-1)?? Odd....why?


Because the new slots for them in the 600 range are still occupied by other channels


----------



## Jeremy W

DarinC said:


> Doesn't make any less sense than showing MTV2 & BET on the HD crawl online, but not in the coming channels PR.


Those two channels have been in the crawl since September 2007.


----------



## QuickDrop

DarinC said:


> Doesn't make any less sense than showing MTV2 & BET on the HD crawl online, but not in the coming channels PR. Well, except for the difference that Travel HD *is *something you'd want to advertise. :whatdidid


They've been showing MTV2 and BET as coming in HD off and on since they began publicizing D10's upcoming HD channels. I assume that, like ABC Family, they're channels they thought they would have bandwidth for and didn't. (Of course, they could have come to their senses and realize Viacom wasn't planning to put any HD content on those channels anyway.)

I agree with you about what DirecTV chooses to advertise. Nothing makes them seem less like "the clear HD leader" than that stupid press release.


----------



## gregjones

QuickDrop said:


> They've been showing MTV2 and BET as coming in HD off and on since they began publicizing D10's upcoming HD channels. I assume that, like ABC Family, they're channels they thought they would have bandwidth for and didn't. (Of course, they could have come to their senses and realize Viacom wasn't planning to put any HD content on those channels anyway.)


Look at the positive side: they could add the channels in a few weeks and still catch the first HD on them...two years from now.


----------



## Pop72&9

gregjones said:


> Look at the positive side: they could add the channels in a few weeks and still catch the first HD on them...two years from now.


:lol: Love the glass half full humor!


----------



## Sixto

Have updated the press release link in post#2 to the corrected press release which clarifies that the RSN additons is 12, rather then 23 ... which is good ... more room for other stuff! 

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPage.jsp?assetId=P4800004


----------



## baker60

Fatboy72 said:


> Maybe it's just me, And it could be, But I believe the SD channels look a little better this morning.


I thought MSNBC and my local channels looked better last night and they are all SD.


----------



## Doug Brott

baker60 said:


> I thought MSNBC and my local channels looked better last night and they are all SD.


Sorry, I actually don't watch enough SD to even notice this ..


----------



## Steve Robertson

Doug Brott said:


> Sorry, I actually don't watch enough SD to even notice this ..


I am with you on this one if it is not in HD I don't watch


----------



## smiddy

The only channel I watch in SD is the Travel Channel and it should be in HD _real_ soon!


----------



## Radio Enginerd

DannyWilson0 said:


> well to us out here in the middle of the pacific thats huge because for a 5lnb setup you have make your house look like a SETI station. It takes two 1.2Meter dishes one for the 99/101/103 and one for the 110/119.
> 
> see my icon for example


Won't you still need the 119 for guide data?


----------



## syphix

Steve Robertson said:


> I am with you on this one if it is not in HD I don't watch


You're missing a _few_ good shows in SD...Mad Men on AMC being one of them (which, btw, looks better on DoD than AMC-SD!). Just a few, though.


----------



## P Smith

Radio Enginerd said:


> Won't you still need the 119 for guide data?


Guide for 101 located at tp2, for Ka - tp31; if you're need 110/119/95/72.5 channels then guide taking from those sats.


----------



## baker60

Steve Robertson said:


> I am with you on this one if it is not in HD I don't watch


 Sometimes I go slumming and watch some SD!?.


----------



## Steve Robertson

syphix said:


> You're missing a _few_ good shows in SD...Mad Men on AMC being one of them (which, btw, looks better on DoD than AMC-SD!). Just a few, though.


SD is just to painful to watch these days I have enough HD on my DVR that I never need to watch SD.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

P Smith said:


> Guide for 101 located at tp2, for Ka - tp31; if you're need 110/119/95/72.5 channels then guide taking from those sats.


ahhhh, gotcha. Thanks P Smith, you're a wealth of information.


----------



## GP_23

Fatboy72 said:


> Maybe it's just me, And it could be, But I believe the SD channels look a little better this morning.


I had channel 307 on this morning first thing, since the last thing I watched on TV was the Cubbies win! and it still didn't look all that good to me, I hope DirecTV gets WGNHD soon!


----------



## evan_s

Radio Enginerd said:


> ahhhh, gotcha. Thanks P Smith, you're a wealth of information.


You are right radio enginerd. When you are tuned to a 103 channel the guide data comes from 119 unless you are using a SWM or a slimline3. You might experience some problems related to missing guide data when using a slimline 5, at9 or in this case the Hawaiian dishes with out 119 signal. In the slimline 3 thread Tom has said multiple times not to just disconnect the sidecar on the at9.

Due to the multi-dish setup needed in Hawaii I'd expect they will move to the slimline3 lnb quickly.


----------



## P Smith

Before you'll tune to ANY channel, a receiver taking APG data from those tpns for those nets/sats as I noted above.
You're should recheck your script or provide more facts.


----------



## VaJim

Please let me know when and to who to pass the banner...'Largest DMA Without Local HD' .....still waiting.....:nono:


----------



## Sixto

Similar ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE134)
1 32729U 08013A   08212.27358243 -.00000136  00000-0  00000+0 0  1343
2 32729 000.0189 093.9428 0001958 141.3563 072.2097 01.00270482  1444

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		[B][SIZE="3"]07-30-2008 06:33:57[/SIZE][/B]
Orbit # at Epoch	144
Inclination		0.019
RA of A. Node		93.943
Eccentricity		0.0001958
Argument of Perigee	141.356
Revs per day		1.00270482
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	[B][SIZE="3"]35 779 x 35 795 km[/SIZE][/B]
Element number / age	134 / 0 day(s)

Lon			[B][SIZE="3"]99.2132° W[/SIZE][/B]
Lat			0.0313° S
Alt (km)		35 783.920

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#134(07-30-2008 06:33:57) 35 779 x 35 795 km (+47.6 hours,at 132.5 days,  99.21°)
TLE#133(07-28-2008 06:57:49) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+19.5 hours,at 130.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#132(07-27-2008 11:26:19) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)
TLE#130(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,767 x 35,783 km (+113.6hours,at 128.6 days,  99.21°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


----------



## smiddy

Intersting TLEs... Is this meant to be the _Parked_ position?


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

Let's park that puppy!


----------



## tkrandall

Are 99c transponders expected to go up in strength tomorrow AM? Last few days I have been only getting low 70s to maybe 80 on 99c, about 10 points lower than I get for 103c, which runs around 83 to 93 typicallly.  Or are the 99c signals not stable/full strength yet? Just wondering if my dish needs tweaking.

My 101 and 119 Ku signals generally are in the lower-mid to upper 90s. (110 is only 50-65 due to foliage).


----------



## evan_s

P Smith said:


> Before you'll tune to ANY channel, a receiver taking APG data from those tpns for those nets/sats as I noted above.
> You're should recheck your script or provide more facts.


I assume this is directed at me.

I won't debate you here because it's not the correct thread and because you don't seem interested in any discussing and prefer to dismiss me as not knowledgeable on the subject.

I will say this. The receivers expect to see ongoing Guide information coming from 119 when tuned to a 103 channel and missing that information because you can't receive 119 can and will affect the functionality of the receiver. Anyone who wants to read more about it and discuss in it a more appropriate thread can check out http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133958


----------



## Sixto

smiddy said:


> Intersting TLEs... Is this meant to be the _Parked_ position?


tough question to answer ... you want to see 35,786 by 35,786 but it's awfully close ... certainly close enough to go "live" tomorrow ...


----------



## hasan

I'm getting low 80's for 99c, my distribution looks like this:

101 - 86%

110 - 94%

119 - 92%

99c - 84%

99s - 55% (spot beam, not intended for my location)

103s - 92%, 95%, 86% (TP 4, 17, 21, others lower)

103c - 89%

We don't have HD-LIL yet here in the Des Moines DMA, but I'm guessing we are going to get them soon and they are probably on 103s.

Back to your question, 99c is the lowest of all the sats as of this morning, but not all that far behind 101, so it will be interesting to see if things come up or stay the same for us.

(Keep in mind we are measuring a variant of Bit-Error-Rate (BER) and not Carrier to Noise ratio, so an increase in power (even if it were to take place), might make no difference at all.)


----------



## Tigerman73

hasan said:


> I'm getting low 80's for 99c, my distribution looks like this:
> 
> 101 - 86%
> 
> 110 - 94%
> 
> 119 - 92%
> 
> 99c - 84%
> 
> 99s - 55% (spot beam, not intended for my location)
> 
> 103s - 92%, 95%, 86% (TP 4, 17, 21, others lower)
> 
> 103c - 89%
> 
> We don't have HD-LIL yet here in the Des Moines DMA, but I'm guessing we are going to get them soon and they are probably on 103s.
> 
> Back to your question, 99c is the lowest of all the sats as of this morning, but not all that far behind 101, so it will be interesting to see if things come up or stay the same for us.
> 
> (Keep in mind we are measuring a variant of Bit-Error-Rate (BER) and not Carrier to Noise ratio, so an increase in power (even if it were to take place), might make no difference at all.)


Unless your getting these readings from a box that reads low like my HR21-100 does about 7 points, I would think your numbers are a bit low. You should at worst be able to get mid to high 90's on 101 along w/ mid 90's across the board on both 99 and 103c. You signal is alright but could be much better.


----------



## hawkeye1

VaJim said:


> Please let me know when and to who to pass the banner...'Largest DMA Without Local HD' .....still waiting.....:nono:


After the 44 DMAs receive their LiLs, these will be the 10 largest DMAs without locals:

64 Lexington, KY
65 Charleston, WV
67 Roanoke, VA
74 Springfield, MO
81 Columbia, SC
82 Shreveport, LA
83 Huntsville, AL; Decatur, AL
90 Jackson, MS
91 Tri-Cities, TN; Tri-Cities, VA
99 Johnstown, PA; Altoona, PA


----------



## Tom Robertson

I'm calling it parked as in at least "close enough to go live" 

Since I've gone to announcing my sleeping habits on key possibilities, unlike the last two Wednesdays, I will be up early tomorrow...


----------



## DannyWilson0

I think P smith is the one who is right on the guide data. We have been doing 1 dish installs for anyone who didn't want their home to look like some kind of command center. and that was for many customers who had HD but were willing to sacrifice the 9 legacy HD channels. P~~~~~


----------



## ATARI

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm calling it parked as in at least "close enough to go live"
> 
> Since I've gone to announcing my sleeping habits on key possibilities, unlike the last two Wednesdays, I will be up early tomorrow...


Heck, why go to bed at all? Just make it an all nighter.


----------



## Hdhead

Transponders 15-24 are now showing up on 99s. All zeros.


----------



## FHSPSU67

hawkeye1 said:


> After the 44 DMAs receive their LiLs, these will be the 10 largest DMAs without locals:
> 
> 64 Lexington, KY
> 65 Charleston, WV
> 67 Roanoke, VA
> 74 Springfield, MO
> 81 Columbia, SC
> 82 Shreveport, LA
> 83 Huntsville, AL; Decatur, AL
> 90 Jackson, MS
> 91 Tri-Cities, TN; Tri-Cities, VA
> *99 Johnstown, PA; Altoona, PA*


Thanks for the research. I'm waiting patiently at 99.


----------



## evan_s

DannyWilson0 said:


> I think P smith is the one who is right on the guide data. We have been doing 1 dish installs for anyone who didn't want their home to look like some kind of command center. and that was for many customers who had HD but were willing to sacrifice the 9 legacy HD channels. P~~~~~


I know it isn't totally broken since I have lost LOS on 119 which I why I was interested in the subject in the first place. The receiver will still get guide data when it can from 101 but that doesn't change the fact that it won't be able to get guide data when on 103. Depending on personal viewing habits and many other things this may or may not produce a noticeable effect. It's hard to say that it failed to record a show because it missed a guide data update or it doesn't have as much guide info 2 weeks out as it could have because there isn't a clear cause and effect relationship.


----------



## woj027

hawkeye1 said:


> After the 44 DMAs receive their LiLs, these will be the 10 largest DMAs without locals:
> 
> 64 Lexington, KY
> 65 Charleston, WV
> 67 Roanoke, VA
> 74 Springfield, MO
> 81 Columbia, SC
> 82 Shreveport, LA
> 83 Huntsville, AL; Decatur, AL
> 90 Jackson, MS
> 91 Tri-Cities, TN; Tri-Cities, VA
> 99 Johnstown, PA; Altoona, PA


Does anyone have a list showing the percentage of locals in each DMA? 
These 10 I assume would be 0%, but how many DMA's have 50% or even 25%? (Lets assume that Locals are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW, MNT) 
I'm just curious. Because if one of those 10 got only one local, it would fall off the list, but the viewers would still be primarly without

I know these links show the DMA's but no percentages
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65321&highlight=channel+list


----------



## n3ntj

groove93 said:


> Big 10 HD now on 610, the only thing I've noticed.


Where will the Big 10 alternate channels be? I assume after some other 600's channels move, that gaps will open up for the alternates to fit in?


----------



## gregjones

woj027 said:


> Does anyone have a list showing the percentage of locals in each DMA?
> These 10 I assume would be 0%, but how many DMA's have 50% or even 25%? (Lets assume that Locals are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW, MNT)
> I'm just curious. Because if one of those 10 got only one local, it would fall off the list, but the viewers would still be primarly without
> 
> I know these links show the DMA's but no percentages
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65321&highlight=channel+list


The only problem with that is the number of markets that have one or more of the networks outside of the main 4 on a digital subchannel. For instance, the CW affiliate in my market is shown as an SD digital subchannel on the CBS affiliate.

In other words, the explanation of the data would be longer than the actual data.


----------



## n3ntj

So, the other thing really happening tomorrow are some MPEG2 to MPEG4 migrations?


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> tough question to answer ... you want to see 35,786 by 35,786 but it's awfully close ... certainly close enough to go "live" tomorrow ...


In the world of perfection that's why I questioned it, since sometimes close is good enough. Thanks Sixto!


----------



## smiddy

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm calling it parked as in at least "close enough to go live"
> 
> Since I've gone to announcing my sleeping habits on key possibilities, unlike the last two Wednesdays, I will be up early tomorrow...


Yeah, me too. I have to be to work early though too, so I may miss something.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> In the world of perfection that's why I questioned it, since sometimes close is good enough. Thanks Sixto!


Or perhaps it'll get one more nudge overnight.... 

(Nice Avatar Smiddy...its contagious I guess  ).


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Or perhaps it'll get one more nudge overnight....


It is interesting that there have been (relatively speaking) a flurry of TLEs lately and I womdered about that as a sign of impending movement. It likely means nothing, but still I can always hope. 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> (Nice Avatar Smiddy...its contagious I guess  ).


 
Thanks, she's such a character...I'm teaching her to say Don-key! As if the donkey has done something bad.


----------



## ATARI

n3ntj said:


> Where will the Big 10 alternate channels be? I assume after some other 600's channels move, that gaps will open up for the alternates to fit in?


Maybe they'll do a 610-1 and 610-2?


----------



## paragon

FHSPSU67 said:


> Thanks for the research. I'm waiting patiently at 99.


As am I. Fortunately, the house I am buying has two large OTA antennas staying put, so I'm crossing my fingers that I can pick up the the locals with them, but I'm not too optimistic.


----------



## texasbrit

I just noticed all the DirecTV11 spotbeam transponders have appeared on my 99s/99b screens. TPs 15 thru 24. All showing zero signal here in DFW.


----------



## LameLefty

texasbrit said:


> I just noticed all the DirecTV11 spotbeam transponders have appeared on my 99s/99b screens. TPs 15 thru 24. All showing zero signal here in DFW.


Yep, someone else posted that on the previous page of the thread. I just confirmed it myself (I love the Slingbox).


----------



## I WANT MORE

Do we know which, if any, locals will launch tomorrow?


----------



## Matt9876

I WANT MORE said:


> Do we know which, if any, locals will launch tomorrow?


It won't be tomorrow,They will be working the mpeg4 conversion tomorrow and hoping not to mess anything up in the process.


----------



## pjsauter

I WANT MORE said:


> Do we know which, if any, locals will launch tomorrow?


Just saw this "breaking news" over at DTV:

Upcoming HD Local Market Launches

August: Augusta, GA.; Chattanooga, Tenn.; Lincoln-Hastings, Neb.; Rochester, N.Y.

September: Baton Rouge, La.; Burlington Vt.-Plattsburgh, N.Y.; Champaign-Springfield-Decatur, Ill.; Mobile AL-Pensacola, Fla.; Myrtle Beach-Florence, S.C.; Richmond-Petersburg, Va. ; South Bend-Elkhart, Ind.; Syracuse, N.Y.; Youngstown, Ohio

October: Boise, Idaho; Charleston, S.C.; Colorado Springs-Pueblo, Colo.; Columbia-Jefferson City, Mo.; Davenport, Iowa-Rock Island, Ill., Moline, Ill.; Dayton, Ohio; Evansville, Ind.; Fort Smith, Ark.; Greenville-New Bern-Washington, N.C.; Harlingen-Brownsville, Texas; Little Rock-Pine Bluff, Ark.; Macon, Ga.; Norfolk-Newport News, Va.; Savannah, Ga.; Springfield-Holyoke, Mass.

November: Des Moines-Ames, Iowa; El Paso, Texas; Fort Wayne, Ind.; La Crosse-Eau Claire, Wis.; Peoria-Bloomington, Ill.; Rockford, Ill.; Sioux Falls, S.D.; Traverse City-Cadillac

December: Bangor, Maine; Beaumont-Port Arthur, Texas; Butte-Bozeman, Mont.; Harrisonburg, Va.; Tallahassee, Fla.


----------



## nj1313

pjsauter said:


> Just saw this "breaking news" over at DTV:
> 
> Upcoming HD Local Market Launches
> 
> August: Augusta, GA.; Chattanooga, Tenn.; Lincoln-Hastings, Neb.; Rochester, N.Y.
> 
> September: Baton Rouge, La.; Burlington Vt.-Plattsburgh, N.Y.; Champaign-Springfield-Decatur, Ill.; Mobile AL-Pensacola, Fla.; Myrtle Beach-Florence, S.C.; Richmond-Petersburg, Va. ; South Bend-Elkhart, Ind.; Syracuse, N.Y.; Youngstown, Ohio
> 
> October: Boise, Idaho; Charleston, S.C.; Colorado Springs-Pueblo, Colo.; Columbia-Jefferson City, Mo.; Davenport, Iowa-Rock Island, Ill., Moline, Ill.; Dayton, Ohio; Evansville, Ind.; Fort Smith, Ark.; Greenville-New Bern-Washington, N.C.; Harlingen-Brownsville, Texas; Little Rock-Pine Bluff, Ark.; Macon, Ga.; Norfolk-Newport News, Va.; Savannah, Ga.; Springfield-Holyoke, Mass.
> 
> November: Des Moines-Ames, Iowa; El Paso, Texas; Fort Wayne, Ind.; La Crosse-Eau Claire, Wis.; Peoria-Bloomington, Ill.; Rockford, Ill.; Sioux Falls, S.D.; Traverse City-Cadillac
> 
> December: Bangor, Maine; Beaumont-Port Arthur, Texas; Butte-Bozeman, Mont.; Harrisonburg, Va.; Tallahassee, Fla.


somebody please take care of this clown...


----------



## dconfer

woj027 said:


> Does anyone have a list showing the percentage of locals in each DMA?
> These 10 I assume would be 0%, but how many DMA's have 50% or even 25%? (Lets assume that Locals are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW, MNT)
> I'm just curious. Because if one of those 10 got only one local, it would fall off the list, but the viewers would still be primarly without
> 
> I know these links show the DMA's but no percentages
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65321&highlight=channel+list


I was thinking the same thing. In dma 54 we only have ABC and FOX. This has been this way since Jan 3.


----------



## Darkscream

Here in Dubuque, Iowa I just noticed signals on 2 TP'S on 103s that were not previously there.

TP's 1 and 3 - though really low strength (50's).

Not sure what that all means though


----------



## fingerstyle

I just looked and couldn't find it- where do they have this hidden?


----------



## baker60

jackm said:


> Just got my Directv guide in the mail and on the page that highlights HD - they mentioned a show on China on the Travel Channel. Could it be coming? - Anyone else read it that way.


Also there are ads for special Olympics coverage on Universal HD channels 750-758 including the On Demand feature.


----------



## Jestr40

jackm said:


> Just got my Directv guide in the mail and on the page that highlights HD - they mentioned a show on China on the Travel Channel. Could it be coming? - Anyone else read it that way.


It's a good thing that is on page 21 because I can't seem to get past page 24!


----------



## glindsey

fingerstyle said:


> I just looked and couldn't find it- where do they have this hidden?


Packages/Locals/Locals in high definition/Breaking News


----------



## merchione

glindsey said:


> Packages/Locals/Locals in high definition/Breaking News


http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002


----------



## nj1313

glindsey said:


> Packages/Locals/Locals in high definition/Breaking News


Holy crap! You're right...my bad! :eek2: Click link below...

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002

I've got to wait unitl freakin' September to get locals in HD!!!!


----------



## Canis Lupus

Bring it on down baby - woot!



pjsauter said:


> October: Boise, Idaho


----------



## texasbrit

LameLefty said:


> Yep, someone else posted that on the previous page of the thread. I just confirmed it myself (I love the Slingbox).


This thread is so long, I missed it!!


----------



## swans

glindsey said:


> Packages/Locals/Locals in high definition/Breaking News


DirecTV Breaking News!

Guess I was late to the party!


----------



## andunn27

Still no Springfield, MO.  Looks like I get to wait until next year.


----------



## jlhoyt13432

booooo.................

October for Norfolk, VA

booooo..................


----------



## Hdhead

Another long wait. Hopefully we'll have our locals for Thankgiving Dinner!


----------



## bwaldron

Hdhead said:


> Hopefully we'll have our locals for Thankgiving Dinner!


I prefer turkey


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> Yep, someone else posted that on the previous page of the thread. I just confirmed it myself (I love the Slingbox).


are these new spotbeams from one of the Spaceway birds at 99? If so, then is this (and if so, how) in any way related to D11 coming on line, or just a coincidence? i.e. they were holding back on releasing some unused capacity on the spaceways for locals until they were sure D11 was working for the conus HD beams?


----------



## Rakul

nj1313 said:


> Holy crap! You're right...my bad! :eek2: Click link below...
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002
> 
> I've got to wait unitl freakin' September to get locals in HD!!!!


At least we aren't in the December group, or even worse not on the list at all.


----------



## nj1313

Rakul said:


> At least we aren't in the December group, or even worse not on the list at all.


No, but when I signed up for DirecTV last July 2007 they told me I would have local HD by December 2007...

With the DirecTV-10 having spotbeam issues, our area was screwed.

Just figured that we'd be first on the list along with any other local-HD areas that didn't get theirs by December 2007 too...


----------



## LameLefty

tkrandall said:


> are these new spotbeams from one of the Spaceway birds at 99? If so, then is this (and if so, how) in any way related to D11 coming on line, or just a coincidence? i.e. they were holding back on releasing some unused capacity on the spaceways for locals until they were sure D11 was working for the conus HD beams?


I don't believe they're from Spaceway 2. They likely have SOME excess capability there, but not ten transponders' worth. Of course, the way to confirm will be to check signals with and without a BBC once the transponders show a signal. If removing the BBC causes the signal to go to zero, it's from D11. If nothing changes, it's from Spaceway 2.


----------



## gregjones

nj1313 said:


> No, but when I signed up for DirecTV last July 2007 they told me I would have local HD by December 2007...
> 
> With the DirecTV-10 having spotbeam issues, our area was screwed.
> 
> Just figured that we'd be first on the list along with any other local-HD areas that didn't get theirs by December 2007 too...


The Richmond DMA, I believe, was beset by contract issues with the local channels.


----------



## raw121

woj027 said:


> Does anyone have a list showing the percentage of locals in each DMA?
> These 10 I assume would be 0%, but how many DMA's have 50% or even 25%? (Lets assume that Locals are ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS, CW, MNT)
> I'm just curious. Because if one of those 10 got only one local, it would fall off the list, but the viewers would still be primarly without
> 
> I know these links show the DMA's but no percentages
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65321&highlight=channel+list


99 Johnstown/Altoona - Has ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS in HD OTA. We get our SD locals from 72.5.


----------



## Rakul

gregjones said:


> The Richmond DMA, I believe, was beset by contract issues with the local channels.


While I cannot attest to all channels WBBT (NBC) has had an agreement in place for quite sometime. The Norfolk, VA DMA had issues with LIN.


----------



## Rakul

nj1313 said:


> No, but when I signed up for DirecTV last July 2007 they told me I would have local HD by December 2007...
> 
> With the DirecTV-10 having spotbeam issues, our area was screwed.
> 
> Just figured that we'd be first on the list along with any other local-HD areas that didn't get theirs by December 2007 too...


Same here, of course it was the installer who said don't bother setting up my antenna because we would have HD locals by the end of the month (this was April 2007)

I don't know if the D10 spot beams affected us or not since Richmond was never offocially announced. Just the random CSR or installer claiming they know.


----------



## tkrandall

LameLefty said:


> I don't believe they're from Spaceway 2. They likely have SOME excess capability there, but not ten transponders' worth. Of course, the way to confirm will be to check signals with and without a BBC once the transponders show a signal. If removing the BBC causes the signal to go to zero, it's from D11. If nothing changes, it's from Spaceway 2.


if they are not from the spaceway (99s) then why are they showing up on the 99s transponders (according to the guy's post) page?


----------



## DarinC

99s doesn't mean Spaceway, it means spots from the 99° slot. D11 has spots, and is also @ 99°.


----------



## curt8403

tkrandall said:


> if they are not from the spaceway (99s) then why are they showing up on the 99s transponders (according to the guy's post) page?


2 satellites at 99, both have spotbeams. hence 2 sources for 99s


----------



## bwaldron

tkrandall said:


> if they are not from the spaceway (99s) then why are they showing up on the 99s transponders (according to the guy's post) page?


I _believe_ that the 99/103(c) and 99/103(s) signify "virtual" satellites -- sets of Conus and Spotbeam transponders at that location...they may be coming from different actual satellites (i.e., Spaceways or D10 and 11 as the case may be).


----------



## nj1313

gregjones said:


> The Richmond DMA, I believe, was beset by contract issues with the local channels.


Yeah...that's what I thought until I called all of the local affiliates (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) in Richmond and each one told me that DirecTV had a contract with each affiliate and that it was DirecTV that was NOT broadcasting the channels for whatever reasons...:nono2:


----------



## tkrandall

DarinC said:


> 99s doesn't mean Spaceway, it means spots from the 99° slot. D11 has spots, and is also @ 99°.


gotcha. so 99s will be a mix of the Spaceway2 and D11 spotbeams.

As I understand it, each of the Spaceways 1 and 2, D10 and D11 have 500 mhz spectrum bandwidth for broadcasts. That is 1000Mhz at each location if I am correct, a Ka "hi" and a Ka "lo" band. Does that 1000 Mhz equate to 32 transponders, or is there 32 for each 500 mhz "band"?

I have yet to figure out why the 99 and 103 signal strength pages have so many N/A transponders, and I am trying to understand how it is set up.


----------



## gregjones

nj1313 said:


> Yeah...that's what I thought until I called all of the local affiliates (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) in Richmond and each one told me that DirecTV had a contract with each affiliate and that it was DirecTV that was NOT broadcasting the channels for whatever reasons...:nono2:


Did you also ask them when they signed it? That DMA seemed to be high on the list but then had some contracts in place. Then there were D10 spot issues and it seems the DMA missed its spot.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Now we know the HD LIL launch cities and timelines:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002


----------



## texasbrit

tkrandall said:


> gotcha. so 99s will be a mix of the Spaceway2 and D11 spotbeams.
> 
> As I understand it, each of the Spaceways 1 and 2, D10 and D11 have 500 mhz spectrum bandwidth for broadcasts. That is 1000Mhz at each location if I am correct, a Ka "hi" and a Ka "lo" band. Does that 1000 Mhz equate to 32 transponders, or is there 32 for each 500 mhz "band"?
> 
> I have yet to figure out why the 99 and 103 signal strength pages have so many N/A transponders, and I am trying to understand how it is set up.


read this sticky http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295 It will tell you everything you wanted to know - and more!


----------



## bakers12

Darkscream said:


> Here in Dubuque, Iowa I just noticed signals on 2 TP'S on 103s that were not previously there.
> 
> TP's 1 and 3 - though really low strength (50's).
> 
> Not sure what that all means though


Since those TPs are spot beams, it means they are aimed at another - but nearby - city.


----------



## tkrandall

ahh yes, I forgot about that sticky. thanks.


----------



## ddobson

Dolly said:


> :hurah: I'm finally right about something :lol:


But weren't you wrong about thinking you might be wrong... Hey don't be patting yourself on the back too quickly now.....


----------



## evan_s

99 and 103 have so many NAs because the transponder on the Ka sats are larger than the standard transponders used by DBS so less of them fit in the 500mhz allocation.


----------



## Ken984

tkrandall said:


> gotcha. so 99s will be a mix of the Spaceway2 and D11 spotbeams.
> 
> As I understand it, each of the Spaceways 1 and 2, D10 and D11 have 500 mhz spectrum bandwidth for broadcasts. That is 1000Mhz at each location if I am correct, a Ka "hi" and a Ka "lo" band. Does that 1000 Mhz equate to 32 transponders, or is there 32 for each 500 mhz "band"?
> 
> I have yet to figure out why the 99 and 103 signal strength pages have so many N/A transponders, and I am trying to understand how it is set up.


KA is not setup like KU. They can make as many transponders as they want to with the bandwidth. So while the screens show 32, it can be any number.


----------



## Malibu13

jlhoyt13432 said:


> booooo.................
> 
> October for Norfolk, VA
> 
> booooo..................


Don't bank on this list being right or wrong. They were first slated to go live in Dec. 2006 per their website, so i wouldn't take any announcement as gospel until you actually see them live. According to all sources i have contacted in this DMA, there is no reason, as far as the stations are concerned, that they all can't go live now. Agreements have been in place for quite some time now with the exception of naturally, the LIN owned stations but a recent contact with persons at those stations, leads me to believe that they are now in agreement.

Hey, almost two years since they were first announced doesn't seem too bad


----------



## Tom Robertson

tkrandall said:


> gotcha. so 99s will be a mix of the Spaceway2 and D11 spotbeams.
> 
> As I understand it, each of the Spaceways 1 and 2, D10 and D11 have 500 mhz spectrum bandwidth for broadcasts. That is 1000Mhz at each location if I am correct, a Ka "hi" and a Ka "lo" band. Does that 1000 Mhz equate to 32 transponders, or is there 32 for each 500 mhz "band"?
> 
> I have yet to figure out why the 99 and 103 signal strength pages have so many N/A transponders, and I am trying to understand how it is set up.


While the pages are setup for 32 transponders each, that is mostly a consistency. Each 500MHz block of Ku band is FCC defined as a standard 32 transponders. As you probably know, DIRECTV only has three of those at 110.

The 500MHZ blocks of Ka are undefined by the FCC. DIRECTV can use them as two big transponders or 100 teeny tiny transponders (and waste a LOT of space between them.)

The tricky part is that DIRECTV doesn't even have to make them all the same size in a block! Some can be 62.5MHz (S1/S2 in bent pipe mode) or various other sizes as they want.

So... In short don't look to the number of N/As as meaning very much at all. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## VaJim

Donnie Byrd said:


> Don't bank on this list being right or wrong. They were first slated to go live in Dec. 2006 per their website, so i wouldn't take any announcement as gospel until you actually see them live. According to all sources i have contacted in this DMA, there is no reason, as far as the stations are concerned, that they all can't go live now. Agreements have been in place for quite some time now with the exception of naturally, the LIN owned stations but a recent contact with persons at those stations, leads me to believe that they are now in agreement.


OCTOBER ...did I make someone mad at DTV? I hope not. :eek2: I'll have to renew my rabbitt ear patrol contract.:grin:


----------



## nj1313

Donnie Byrd said:


> Don't bank on this list being right or wrong. They were first slated to go live in Dec. 2006 per their website, so i wouldn't take any announcement as gospel until you actually see them live. According to all sources i have contacted in this DMA, there is no reason, as far as the stations are concerned, that they all can't go live now. Agreements have been in place for quite some time now with the exception of naturally, the LIN owned stations but a recent contact with persons at those stations, leads me to believe that they are now in agreement.
> 
> Hey, almost two years since they were first announced doesn't seem too bad


Exact same situation here in the Richmond, VA area...:nono2:


----------



## Malibu13

VaJim said:


> OCTOBER ...did I make someone mad at DTV? I hope not. :eek2: I'll have to renew my rabbitt ear patrol contract.:grin:


What's another 3 months, October will be very close to a 2 year wait from their first website announcement in Dec. 2006.


----------



## smiddy

This is fun, let's see who gets the first LiL.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

There's a big difference now -- as far as the HD LILs, compared to 2006. The sats are all now up and operational, the transponders activated, and ready to go. The only variable remaining is the station agreements themselves, and we are privy to that information. Unlike 2006, where the "intent" was to have things ready - this time they are.


----------



## Darkscream

bakers12 said:


> Since those TPs are spot beams, it means they are aimed at another - but nearby - city.


I just checked again and they are now back to 0 - but TP 17 is at Full strength (previously 0).

Beats Me.


----------



## curt8403

Darkscream said:


> I just checked again and they are now back to 0 - but TP 17 is at Full strength (previously 0).
> 
> Beats Me.


the D11 sat is playing Kangaroo


----------



## texasbrit

evan_s said:


> I assume this is directed at me.
> 
> I won't debate you here because it's not the correct thread and because you don't seem interested in any discussing and prefer to dismiss me as not knowledgeable on the subject.
> 
> I will say this. The receivers expect to see ongoing Guide information coming from 119 when tuned to a 103 channel and missing that information because you can't receive 119 can and will affect the functionality of the receiver. Anyone who wants to read more about it and discuss in it a more appropriate thread can check out http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133958


I just noticed this post and I wanted to say you are absolutely correct. As those people who are missing 119 because of trees, and post in this forum to say they have lost their guide data updates after tuning 103 for a long period of time, will testify.


----------



## mgtr

OK, this is getting close to the time when the rubber meets the road (we hope). Exactly what will happen tomorrow morning? Anything we will notice at all? For example, my PQ on ESPN at 206 has been pretty good lately, so I am uncertain what I notice immediately with a shift to MPEG4. Short of removing my BBCs, what will I notice on any channel?


----------



## posg

texasbrit said:


> I just noticed this post and I wanted to say you are absolutely correct. As those people who are missing 119 because of trees, and post in this forum to say they have lost their guide data updates after tuning 103 for a long period of time, will testify.


I hope it's a moot point, but I also have the seasonal issue with 119 due to trees. What I did to keep the guide data updated was program a macro on my cheap Sony programmable remote to the following steps: 1) Turn off TV, 2) Turn off Audio receiver, 3) Tune satellite receiver to channel 204, a 101 channel so the receiver sees guide info when not in use. I do not turn the satellite receiver off, but the "on" macro tunes the receiver to the first channel in my HD locals.


----------



## Kansas Zephyr

mgtr said:


> Short of removing my BBCs, what will I notice on any channel?


Don't remove them! You still need them.


----------



## FHSPSU67

raw121 said:


> 99 Johnstown/Altoona - Has ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS in HD OTA. We get our SD locals from 72.5.


We also have Fox8 OTA HD.
Hopefully the SD's wil be moving off 72.5 SOON!


----------



## VaJim

Donnie Byrd said:


> What's another 3 months, October will be very close to a 2 year wait from their first website announcement in Dec. 2006.


..yeah I hear ya. ...I'm still trying to figure out how smaller markets already have their HD locals.


----------



## fwlogue

VaJim said:


> ..yeah I hear ya. ...I'm still trying to figure out how smaller markets already have their HD locals.


Join the club I have been trying to figure that out for a while now


----------



## 66stang351

VaJim said:


> ..yeah I hear ya. ...I'm still trying to figure out how smaller markets already have their HD locals.





fwlogue said:


> Join the club I have been trying to figure that out for a while now


It was because of LIN...who owns 2 of the big four in Norfolk. DIRECTV finally was able to get a contract with them a few months ago. LIN was asking for a significant amount of money to carry their signal.


----------



## mcbeevee

Less than 12 hours to go before D11 becomes an "official" member of the fleet!


----------



## texasbrit

posg said:


> I hope it's a moot point, but I also have the seasonal issue with 119 due to trees. What I did to keep the guide data updated was program a macro on my cheap Sony programmable remote to the following steps: 1) Turn off TV, 2) Turn off Audio receiver, 3) Tune satellite receiver to channel 204, a 101 channel so the receiver sees guide info when not in use. I do not turn the satellite receiver off, but the "on" macro tunes the receiver to the first channel in my HD locals.


It's a lot easier than that. If you have a receiver, just set a daily autotune for the early hours of the morning, to a channel that is on 101. That will keep the guide refreshed. If you have a DVR, set two short manual recordings for every morning at 3am, to channels on 101. I believe you need to make sure tuner 1 is on 101, hence having to do two recordings. You do have to clean up by deleting the recordings though!


----------



## mystic7

Uh-oh, there's no update in post #2 of this thread today. I'm worried


----------



## syphix

mystic7 said:


> Uh-oh, there's no update in post #2 of this thread today. I'm worried


Huh? Post #2 was updated at 11:00am today with the latest TLE.


----------



## mgtr

Kansas Zephyr said:


> Don't remove them! You still need them.


Ah, you miss my point. If they switch ESPN to MPEG4, and I removed my BBC, I would get no ESPN. My question is, will I notice anything different tomorrow morning other than that? In other words, any new channels, or anything more than a marginal (in my opinion) picture improvement? I already have HD LIL, so that doesn't count for me.


----------



## curt8403

mgtr said:


> Ah, you miss my point. If they switch ESPN to MPEG4, and I removed my BBC, I would get no ESPN. My question is, will I notice anything different tomorrow morning other than that? In other words, any new channels, or anything more than a marginal (in my opinion) picture improvement? I already have HD LIL, so that doesn't count for me.


removing the BBC will result in loss of all HD period


----------



## LameLefty

curt8403 said:


> removing the BBC will result in loss of all HD period


Except for HD in Ka-hi, coming from the Spaceways (if your locals are coming from there, as mine are for instance).


----------



## Sirshagg

curt8403 said:


> removing the BBC will result in loss of all HD period


Really? I have no BBC's and I hav no problems getting all the HD channels



Spoiler



SWM baby


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sirshagg said:


> Really? I have no BBC's and I hav no problems getting all the HD channels
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> SWM baby


Yeah, I can top that. I have no BBCs and no SWM on a receiver and still get all the HD channels...



Spoiler



H23 standard HD receiver...


----------



## mgtr

curt8403 said:


> removing the BBC will result in loss of all HD period


If it is MPEG2, then the BBC isn't needed, is it?


----------



## Tom Robertson

mgtr said:



> If it is MPEG2, then the BBC isn't needed, is it?


Correct.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mgtr

Hey, folks, I thought my original question was pretty simple (maybe simple-minded?). What, if anything, will I see differnet tomorrow morning?


----------



## hyde76

Only 324 posts left to get to 7000. Can it be done before tomorrow?... Sorry, I couldn't resist.


----------



## LameLefty

mgtr said:


> If it is MPEG2, then the BBC isn't needed, is it?


Sure. Until MPEG2 HD goes away entirely, probably by the end of the year.


----------



## Sirshagg

hyde76 said:


> Only 324 posts left to get to 7000. Can it be done before tomorrow?... Sorry, I couldn't resist.


Well, That's one way to light the fire.


----------



## curt8403

Tom Robertson said:


> Yeah, I can top that. I have no BBCs and no SWM on a receiver and still get all the HD channels...
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> H23 standard HD receiver...


well of course.


Spoiler



Your units have B-bands built in


----------



## evan_s

mgtr said:


> Hey, folks, I thought my original question was pretty simple (maybe simple-minded?). What, if anything, will I see differnet tomorrow morning?


Depending on your setup you might notice the 200's versions of the channels looking better than the 70's version. You will also see the new 200+ versions for channels that didn't have them before. Over all it should be pretty transparent and probably isn't something you would have noticed on your own unless your very picky about the quality of the channels.


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


> Well, That's one way to light the fire.


Fire??? Fire Bad


----------



## Tom Robertson

mgtr said:


> Hey, folks, I thought my original question was pretty simple (maybe simple-minded?). What, if anything, will I see differnet tomorrow morning?


Depending upon your receiver models, you might see new channel numbers for some channels like HDnet and HDnet movies; and better picture quality on channels like HBO 501, ESPN 206, etc.--but only if you tune at their channel numbers that are not in the 70-79 range. Those will most likely be MPEG2 even for the new receivers.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sirshagg

it would appear this most definitely applies


----------



## CompiledMonkey

I'm so excited! I'm crossing my fingers for a better picture on ESPN when I get home on Sunday!


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


> it would appear this most definitely applies


but that looks like a snowy screen


----------



## Sirshagg

curt8403 said:


> but that looks like a snowy screen


Some transmit HD in stretchovision, others with built in snow. :hurah:


----------



## dhines

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now we know the HD LIL launch cities and timelines:
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002


what if you are not on this list?


----------



## mgtr

Tom Robertson said:


> Depending upon your receiver models, you might see new channel numbers for some channels like HDnet and HDnet movies; and better picture quality on channels like HBO 501, ESPN 206, etc.--but only if you tune at their channel numbers that are not in the 70-79 range. Those will most likely be MPEG2 even for the new receivers.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


So, the answer is that they will map the 70s MPEG2 channels to new channel numbers as MPEG4? OK, I understand.


----------



## jeffwltrs

-1! I still need BBC's!


----------



## TerryB

I'm looking forward to finally getting the MPEG4 replacements for 119. My install in early April couldn't get to LOS on the majority those channels. It has always ticked me off to get the 771 when I was looking forward to something.

TerryB


----------



## hdtvfan0001

dhines said:


> what if you are not on this list?


Then a 2008 startup of your location is not on the radar.

That doesn't prohibit something in 2009, however.


----------



## John4924

When will the first football game be on? Will it be on ESPN in our shiny new mpeg4? Does anyone know? I know the Hall of Fame game comes on soon?


----------



## curt8403

jeffwltrs said:


> -1! I still need BBC's!


everyone will still need BBCs for National channels (most of them)


----------



## 66stang351

dhines said:


> what if you are not on this list?





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then a 2008 startup of your location is not on the radar.
> 
> That doesn't prohibit something in 2009, however.


Or you already have HD LiL.


----------



## dhines

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then a 2008 startup of your location is not on the radar.
> 
> That doesn't prohibit something in 2009, however.


gotcha, thanks.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

John4924 said:


> When will the first football game be on? Will it be on ESPN in our shiny new mpeg4? Does anyone know? I know the Hall of Fame game comes on soon?


The Hall of Fame game is on NBC Sunday night. I am not sure when the first game on ESPN is.


----------



## HD30TV

mgtr said:


> Hey, folks, I thought my original question was pretty simple (maybe simple-minded?). What, if anything, will I see differnet tomorrow morning?


MPEG4 PQ should be less pixellated and sharper, compared to the now MPEG2 each channel is.

Other than that, the difference should be fairly negligible.


----------



## HD30TV

Michael D'Angelo;1707025 said:


> The Hall of Fame game is on NBC Sunday night. I am not sure when *the first game on ESPN is*.


Don't quote me, but I believe its either the the weekend following the HOF game, or that Monday.


----------



## lwilli201

Michael D'Angelo;1707025 said:


> The Hall of Fame game is on NBC Sunday night. I am not sure when the first game on ESPN is.


Preseason game on 7 August is the first ESPN NFL game.


----------



## Jimmy 440

Way too early for football ! <lol>


----------



## curt8403

Jimmy 440 said:


> Way too early for football ! <lol>


not if your name is Brett Favre


----------



## LameLefty

Jimmy 440 said:


> Way too early for football ! <lol>


It is _never_ too early for football.


----------



## justlgi

Jimmy 440 said:


> Way too early for football ! <lol>


*Blasphemy!*


----------



## Pop72&9

justlgi said:


> *Blasphemy!*


*AMEN!!!!!!!*


----------



## DarinC

HD30TV said:


> MPEG4 PQ should be less pixellated and sharper, compared to the now MPEG2 each channel is.
> 
> Other than that, the difference should be fairly negligible.


So one should be fuzzy and blocky, while the other should be sharp and smooth, but other than THAT they are pretty much the same?

:grin:


----------



## syphix

I've been recording "Weeds", "Generation Kill" and others on the WEST coast feed, just to get the benefit of MPEG4. Can't wait to change my SL's so I can watch them earlier!

DarinC: MPEG4 takes less space on your hard drive, too...


----------



## ruthiesea

LameLefty said:


> It is _never_ too early for football.


Excuse me, but I think you meant hockey (Go Lightning)!:grin:


----------



## Sirshagg

ruthiesea said:


> Excuse me, but I think you meant hockey (Go Lightning)!:grin:


To quote Pop72&9
*AMEN!!!!!!!*

Go Coyotes!!!


----------



## curt8403

ruthiesea said:


> Excuse me, but I think you meant hockey (Go Lightning)!:grin:


no they mean Football, Hockey attracts Don Rickles
(Figure it out)


Spoiler



He is always referring to people as Hockey Pucks


----------



## DarinC

syphix said:


> DarinC: MPEG4 takes less space on your hard drive, too...


Yes, I was being facetious. Apparently not very successfully.


----------



## jefbal99

ruthiesea said:


> Excuse me, but I think you meant hockey (Go *Wings*)!:grin:


Fixed your post


----------



## mgtr

LameLefty said:


> It is _never_ too early for football.


No, it is never too early for college basketball, Duke style (flame suit on).


----------



## bslange2

I turned on my TV tonight and it came on with colored bars and on channel 9329 TEST. It says that it is Cubs vs. Brewers. Is this one of the new channels they are testing?

Found out what's going on. I tuned to 206 ESPN and it says the game is blacked out. Gamesearch finds it and tunes to it, but there is no programming.

I read this happened before, so I guess it's the same thing but a different test channel.


----------



## curt8403

bslange2 said:


> I turned on my TV tonight and it came on with colored bars and on channel 9329 TEST. It says that it is Cubs vs. Brewers. Is this one of the new channels they are testing?
> 
> Found out what's going on. I tuned to 206 ESPN and it says the game is blacked out. Gamesearch finds it and tunes to it, but there is no programming.
> 
> I read this happened before, so I guess it's the same thing but a different test channel.


it does seem to be some sort of a test channel or something like that, but from what I hear, you should not be able to see that channel (Due to black out)


----------



## Sirshagg

jefbal99 said:


> Fixed your post


Yes, go Wings is right - Go AWAY! :lol:


----------



## curt8403

Sirshagg said:


> Yes, go Wings is right - Go AWAY! :lol:


if it had the right kind of wings, it could fly away


----------



## henryld

LameLefty said:


> It is _never_ too early for football.


Without DLB's, sad.:nono:


----------



## loudo

mgtr said:


> No, it is never too early for college basketball, Duke style (flame suit on).


I would only watch college basketball, if someone paid me to.


----------



## mgtr

loudo said:


> I would only watch college basketball, if someone paid me to.


I think that is unlikely, given that you live in Florida and are subjected to the Gators and that other team.


----------



## henryld

mgtr said:


> I think that is unlikely, given that you live in Florida and are subjected to the Gators and that other team.


Uhh! Wasn't there another Florida team (besides Miami) in the mix this year?


----------



## curt8403

mgtr said:


> I think that is unlikely, given that you live in Florida and are subjected to the Gators and that other team.


Doesn't Florida have to deal with Aligories, Hypotanuses, and Relevants?


----------



## lovswr

justlgi said:


> *Blasphemy!*


Dude I was thinking of this sentiment exactly. Except I was going to call him a

BLASPHEMER!

LOL


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Very comical listening to you all but let's steer this thread back to the topic at hand.

:backtotop


----------



## Sirshagg

Radio Enginerd said:


> Very comical listening to you all but let's steer this thread back to the topic at hand.
> 
> :backtotop


Are they lit yet?


----------



## Sirshagg

Are they lit yet?


----------



## Tom Robertson

We're now operating under a two page warning. 

If I go thru two pages of OT stuff, this thread is done, cooked, and closed. (And I use 40 posts per page...)

Corollary, if someone drops in a poorly veiled attempt to stay on topic whilst really off topic, thread is still closed...

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## curt8403

Radio Enginerd said:


> Very comical listening to you all but let's steer this thread back to the topic at hand.
> 
> :backtotop


and that is new signals from D11 as of tomorrow morning,

GO D11 (as Opposed to Go Colonel, which refers to Colonel Sanders doing the Funky Chicken)


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Sirshagg said:


> Are they lit yet?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## fwlogue

66stang351 said:


> It was because of LIN...who owns 2 of the big four in Norfolk. DIRECTV finally was able to get a contract with them a few months ago. LIN was asking for a significant amount of money to carry their signal.


There were plenty of other areas that had LIN hold outs and have had HD for quite a while now. Directv has had agreements in place with all other stations here for going on two years now. It has been one excuse after another as to why there is no HD locals here.


----------



## mauijiminar

fwlogue said:


> There were plenty of other areas that had LIN hold outs and have had HD for quite a while now. Directv has had agreements in place with all other stations here for going on two years now. It has been one excuse after another as to why there is no HD locals here.


Well I have been waiting in Little Rock for just as long, so I guess they will get here when they get here!


----------



## ruthiesea

What about HDMN (78) and HDN (79)? Are they going to move for MPEG4? Also, how do I get to the 9*** test channels? I get the beep when I try.


----------



## raoul5788

fwlogue said:


> There were plenty of other areas that had LIN hold outs and have had HD for quite a while now. Directv has had agreements in place with all other stations here for going on two years now. It has been one excuse after another as to why there is no HD locals here.


Here in CT we have two LIN stations, WTNH and WCTX. WTNH hd went live on Directv immediately, but WCTX hd is still not on.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

ruthiesea said:


> What about HDMN (78) and HDN (79)? Are they going to move for MPEG4? Also, how do I get to the 9*** test channels? I get the beep when I try.


I believe you need an engineering card although a few others have reported seeing the test channels so I have no idea.


----------



## Tom Robertson

ruthiesea said:


> What about HDMN (78) and HDN (79)? Are they going to move for MPEG4? Also, how do I get to the 9*** test channels? I get the beep when I try.


All the channels in the 70s will remain available for MPEG2 only HD receivers. They will also be at their normal SD channel numbers in MPEG4 on the H2x and HR2x receivers. Specifically 78 will become 552 and HDN will be 306.

All this starts in just a few hours, 6am ET tomorrow morning, 7/31.

To get the test channels in the 9000, you need either an engineering card or to try a gamesearch on a baseball game blacked out in your area. It might bounce you up to a 9000 channel.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Doug Brott

Are you ready? We're not far from unsticking this thread  

.. and that's in a good way :grin:


----------



## Drew2k

Fot the kids playing along at home, here's a summary of the MPEG2 HD to MPEG4 HD channel mappings:

*Organized by new MPEG4 location:*

73 / *206*: ESPN-HD
72 / *209*: ESPN2-HD
75 / *245*: TNT-HD
74 / *259*: Universal-HD
76 / *281*: HD Theater
79 / *306*: HDNet
70 / *501*: HBO-HD
71 / *537*: Showtime-HD
78 / *552*: HDNet Movies

80 / *390*: CBS-HD East
82 / *392*: NBC-HD East
86 / *396*: ABC-HD East
88 / *398*: FOX-HD East

90-99:

*Organized by MPEG2 location:*

*70* / 501: HBO-HD
*71* / 537: Showtime-HD
*72* / 209: ESPN2-HD
*73* / 206: ESPN-HD
*74* / 259: Universal-HD
*75* / 245: TNT-HD
*76* / 281: HD Theater
*78* / 552: HDNet Movies
*79* / 306: HDNet

*80* / 390: CBS-HD East
*82* / 392: NBC-HD East
*86* / 396: ABC-HD East
*88* / 398: FOX-HD East

90-99:


----------



## ruthiesea

Radio Enginerd said:


> I believe you need an engineering card although a few others have reported seeing the test channels so I have no idea.


Thanks, that answers that.



Tom Robertson said:


> All the channels in the 70s will remain available for MPEG2 only HD receivers. They will also be at their normal SD channel numbers in MPEG4 on the H2x and HR2x receivers. Specifically 78 will become 552 and HDN will be 306.


My only concern is that I'm showing the new MPEG4 channels on my HR20-700 except for 306 and 552. I'll have to wait until 0600. Thanks.


----------



## DarinC

Doug Brott said:


> Are you ready? We're not far from unsticking this thread


Are you sure? Harsh has already investigated several ways D11 could be live by the end of the month, and has determined they won't be able to pull it off.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

Drew2k said:


> Fot the kids playing along at home, here's a summary of the MPEG2 HD to MPEG4 HD channel mappings:
> 
> *Organized by new MPEG4 location:*
> 
> 73 / *206*: ESPN-HD
> 72 / *209*: ESPN2-HD
> 75 / *245*: TNT-HD
> 74 / *259*: Universal-HD
> 76 / *281*: HD Theater
> 79 / *306*: HDNet
> 70 / *501*: HBO-HD
> 71 / *537*: Showtime-HD
> 78 / *552*: HDNet Movies
> 
> 80 / *390*: CBS-HD East
> 82 / *392*: NBC-HD East
> 86 / *396*: ABC-HD East
> 88 / *398*: FOX-HD East
> 
> 90-99:
> 
> *Organized by MPEG2 location:*
> 
> *70* / 501: HBO-HD
> *71* / 537: Showtime-HD
> *72* / 209: ESPN2-HD
> *73* / 206: ESPN-HD
> *74* / 259: Universal-HD
> *75* / 245: TNT-HD
> *76* / 281: HD Theater
> *78* / 552: HDNet Movies
> *79* / 306: HDNet
> 
> *80* / 390: CBS-HD East
> *82* / 392: NBC-HD East
> *86* / 396: ABC-HD East
> *88* / 398: FOX-HD East
> 
> 90-99:


Very helpful, thank you.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

ruthiesea said:


> Thanks, that answers that.
> 
> My only concern is that I'm showing the new MPEG4 channels on my HR20-700 except for 306 and 552. I'll have to wait until 0600. Thanks.


The channels you are seeing are virtual/remaps of the MPEG2 versions (in the 70's). Tomorrow AM those virtual/remaps will be replaced w/ MPEG4 versions of delivered by D11.


----------



## ruthiesea

Radio Enginerd said:


> The channels you are seeing are virtual/remaps of the MPEG2 versions (in the 70's). Tomorrow AM those virtual/remaps will be replaced w/ MPEG4 versions of delivered by D11.


That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure. 
Thanks, again.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

ruthiesea said:


> That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.
> Thanks, again.


No problem, anytime.


----------



## BigJ52

Tom Robertson said:


> All the channels in the 70s will remain available for MPEG2 only HD receivers. They will also be at their normal SD channel numbers in MPEG4 on the H2x and HR2x receivers. Specifically 78 will become 552 and HDN will be 306.
> 
> All this starts in just a few hours, 6am ET tomorrow morning, 7/31.
> 
> *To get the test channels in the 9000, you need either an engineering card or to try a gamesearch on a baseball game blacked out in your area. It might bounce you up to a 9000 channel.*
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I did this on the Cubs vs. Brewers game tonight and it took me to a "TEST 206" station. Station looks pretty damn good to me. Seems like a better PQ for ESPN HD than before.

Picture also looks better with the Cubs up 7-2!


----------



## Radio Enginerd

BigJ52 said:


> I did this on the Cubs vs. Brewers game tonight and it took me to a "TEST 206" station. Station looks pretty damn good to me. Seems like a better PQ for ESPN HD than before.
> 
> Picture also looks better with the Cubs up 7-2!


As far as we know, 206 is still being delivered in MPEG2 at this time.


----------



## DodgerKing

Radio Enginerd said:


> As far as we know, 206 is still being delivered in MPEG2 at this time.


Not on the test channel.


----------



## Dolly

So if I want ESPN-HD tomorrow instead of going to Channel 206 I should go to Channel 73? Or will Channel 206 not be there to go to? I'm mixed up again now  This High Tech stuff is just too much for me


----------



## BigJ52

Dolly said:


> So if I want ESPN-HD tomorrow instead of going to Channel 206 I should go to Channel 73? Or will Channel 206 not be there to go to? I'm mixed up again now  This High Tech stuff is just too much for me


No you will want to watch 206 instead of 73. 206 will be MPEG 4, 73 will be MPEG 2


----------



## BigJ52

Radio Enginerd said:


> As far as we know, 206 is still being delivered in MPEG2 at this time.





DodgerKing said:


> Not on the test channel.


Yeah it didn't send me to the normal 206, it said TEST 206 and didn't have an ESPN logo on the banner.


----------



## carl6

curt8403 said:


> well of course.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Your units have B-bands built in


Actually, the H23 does not have built-in BBC. Rather, it has a wide-band receiver that does not need to convert the b-band signal. It receives it directly.

Carl


----------



## Dolly

BigJ52 said:


> No you will want to watch 206 instead of 73. 206 will be MPEG 4, 73 will be MPEG 2


Thanks  And great because I always use Channel 206 anyway. Isn't it nice when a plan comes together


----------



## Radio Enginerd

DodgerKing said:


> Not on the test channel.


 If you were a real friend you'd make all my cards ENG cards.


----------



## VeniceDre

Doug Brott said:


> Are you ready? We're not far from unsticking this thread
> 
> .. and that's in a good way :grin:


Show me, don't tell me.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

BigJ52 said:


> Yeah it didn't send me to the normal 206, it said TEST 206 and didn't have an ESPN logo on the banner.


hmmmmm, how did you get to TEST 206? You say it sent you there? Can you explain?


----------



## dcowboy7

t minus 5 hrs. 59 mins.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


----------



## VeniceDre

AirRocker said:


> ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


Maybe some people are planning to, I just went into the chat room and there was "DirecTV HD" subroom... Nothin but crickets though.

I've been up late keeping my girl company as she works on a design project. If I'm up still up I may stick it out, otherwise I'll just turn the TV on in the morning.


----------



## gulfwarvet

VeniceDre said:


> Maybe some people are planning to, I just went into the chat room and there was "DirecTV HD" subroom... Nothin but crickets though.
> 
> I've been up late keeping my girl company as she works on a design project. If I'm up still up I may stick it out, otherwise I'll just turn the TV on in the morning.


yes there's a special room setup that will be open all night for this mornings festivities.


----------



## smiddy

AirRocker said:


> ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


I'm usually up by 5:30, so not any earlier than normal. Though I don't usually check things on a Thursday so hopefully I'm not too foggy at that time to check.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

I'm looking forward to some X-Games action in MPEG-4 tomorrow night!!


----------



## smiddy

AirRocker said:


> I'm looking forward to some X-Games action in MPEG-4 tomorrow night!!


How about AMP and Get Out in MPEG-4?


----------



## VeniceDre

gulfwarvet said:


> yes there's a special room setup that will be open all night for this mornings festivities.


Maybe it's easier for you East Coasters to get up early, instead of us West Coasters staying up late.

I remember both of us being really, really sick last September while we waited for activation of D10. Thank God it's not a replay!


----------



## dcowboy7

VeniceDre said:


> I've been up late keeping my girl company....I may stick it out.


----------



## HD30TV

AirRocker said:


> ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


If I didn't have to work tomorrow, I would just because I'm usually up that late on days off anyway.... but since these are just channel rearrangements and not new channels, not quite excited enough to stick it out.

I know, I'm a bad HD enthusiast.


----------



## Sirshagg

AirRocker said:


> ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


I was wondering exactly the same thing.


----------



## gulfwarvet

AirRocker said:


> ok.. so who's staying up all night/getting up early??


i think i may take a pass on this time, i think i'm still recovering from when D10 lit up.


----------



## smiddy

gulfwarvet said:


> i think i may take a pass on this time, i think i'm still recovering from when D10 lit up.


That was a wild ride. I think DirecTV 11 is not so much hyped up, especially in light of the direction DirecTV is taking to bring it on line.


----------



## gulfwarvet

smiddy said:


> That was a wild ride. I think DirecTV 11 is not so much hyped up, especially in light of the direction DirecTV is taking to bring it on line.


yupper, you may indeed be correct. now in a couple weeks when the new channels comes online. this maybe will become a different story.


----------



## Sirshagg

smiddy said:


> That was a wild ride. I think DirecTV 11 is not so much hyped up, especially in light of the direction DirecTV is taking to bring it on line.


Yep, kinda tough to get all excited about the same channels just with a different compression codec. Now there's the definition of geek.


----------



## VeniceDre

dcowboy7 said:


>


I think you're trying to be dirty! :lol:


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

gulfwarvet said:


> yupper, you may indeed be correct. now in a couple weeks when the new channels comes online. this maybe will become a different story.


yep... i'm sure we will have a mad-house indeed when new channels start coming online...


----------



## VeniceDre

Could be a surprise tomorrow morning though. 

Would take the wind out of Dish's sails.


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

HD30TV said:


> If I didn't have to work tomorrow, I would just because I'm usually up that late on days off anyway.... but since these are just channel rearrangements and not new channels, not quite excited enough to stick it out.
> 
> I know, I'm a bad HD enthusiast.


We'll let it slide this time... :lol:


----------



## bruinfever

VeniceDre said:


> Could be a surprise tomorrow morning though.
> 
> Would take the wind out of Dish's sails.


That's cruel to give me hope like that....


----------



## Sixto

T minus 5


----------



## VeniceDre

bruinfever said:


> That's cruel to give me hope like that....


Hey there were some surprises on Sept. 26, 2007. Some channels popped up that the masses weren't expecting, while others we had seen on Test Channels took weeks to get activated. National Geographic anyone?

Chances are slim though.


----------



## VeniceDre

Sixto said:


> T minus 5


You put a lot of work into this thread. You must be especially proud that your baby will begin transmitting to the masses.


----------



## Doug Brott

BigJ52 said:


> No you will want to watch 206 instead of 73. 206 will be MPEG 4, 73 will be MPEG 2


I believe 206 will be MPEG2 .. on the HR10s or if an HR20 is connected to a Ku-only dish.


----------



## Sixto

VeniceDre said:


> You put a lot of work into this thread. You must be especially proud that your baby will begin transmitting to the masses.


Looking forward to it! The future is bright ...


----------



## Doug Brott

I've opened a Chat Room that should be available all night (and morning) long ..


----------



## Paul A

While I'm bummed about the rollout, it's impossible not to get excited as heck about finally flipping the switch. Congrats at all who brought D11 into, and out of, this world.

Special thanks to all the hard working folks contributing to this excellent forum!!!

More HD for all!!! And more HBO HD channels, SOON!


----------



## Igor

DIRECTV is doubling its high-def capacity. D11 seems to be of the same size of D10!!!

The switch may flip tonight to kill HD MPEG2 from our lives, but much more must be coming with such big addition. I share the excitement, more HD and SOON


----------



## Greg Alsobrook

I would also like to offer my personal thanks to Sixto for all of the hard work he has put into this thread. Even though I didn't have too much to add to this thread, I did enjoy following it and waiting on the next "Sixto Report". 

Thanks for taking time out of your day to keep us up to date Sixto! :goodjob:

Now... Let's bring on the MPEG-4 and new HD channels!!


----------



## Newshawk

Doug Brott said:


> I believe 206 will be MPEG2 .. on the HR10s or if an HR20 is connected to a Ku-only dish.


206 will be MPEG2 SD on an HR19 as it doesn't have the capability to display two different channels with the same channel number. That is a feature only the H2x and HR2x have.


----------



## VandyCWG

I for one, am very excited! I get off work at 3am CST and will hopefully be up for the switch tonight!

Exciting times here!


----------



## P Smith

We have some changes !

TEST, 136
TEST, 145
TEST, 281
TEST, 306
TEST, 552
TEST, 9321
TEST, 245
TEST, 206
TEST, 9324
TEST, 9325
TEST, 9327
TEST, 9328
TEST, 9329
TEST, 9330
TEST, 9331
TEST, 634
TEST, 58
TEST, 501
TEST, 9341
TEST, 209
TEST, 537
TEST, 9346
TEST, 392
TEST, 398
TEST, 396
TEST, 390
TEST, 9352
TEST, 9353
TEST, 259
TEST, 9355
TEST, 138
TEST, 180
TEST, 181
TEST, 139
TEST, 9363
TEST, 9366
TEST, 9369
TEST, 9370
TEST, 292
TEST, 9376


----------



## Steve615

P Smith said:


> We have some changes !
> 
> TEST, 136
> TEST, 145
> TEST, 281
> TEST, 306
> TEST, 552
> TEST, 9321
> TEST, 245
> TEST, 206
> TEST, 9324
> TEST, 9325
> TEST, 9327
> TEST, 9328
> TEST, 9329
> TEST, 9330
> TEST, 9331
> TEST, 634
> TEST, 58
> TEST, 501
> TEST, 9341
> TEST, 209
> TEST, 537
> TEST, 9346
> TEST, 392
> TEST, 398
> TEST, 396
> TEST, 390
> TEST, 9352
> TEST, 9353
> TEST, 259
> TEST, 9355
> TEST, 138
> TEST, 180
> TEST, 181
> TEST, 139
> TEST, 9363
> TEST, 9366
> TEST, 9369
> TEST, 9370
> TEST, 292
> TEST, 9376


Still looking at 40 test channels,eh?
Thanks for the update P Smith.


----------



## P Smith

Yeah, I thought someone will see the table as a source of new channels .
If you miss the point, then I will telly straight -replace SOME "TEST" names with real names where you see changes from last post.


----------



## VeniceDre

P Smith said:


> Yeah, I thought someone will see the table as a source of new channels .
> If you miss the point, then I will telly straight -replace SOME "TEST" names with real names where you see changes from last post.


 TEST, 136 PPV
TEST, 145 PPV
TEST, 281 HD Theater
TEST, 306 HD Net
TEST, 552 HD Net Movies
TEST, 9321
TEST, 245 TNT
TEST, 206 ESPN
TEST, 9324
TEST, 9325
TEST, 9327
TEST, 9328
TEST, 9329
TEST, 9330
TEST, 9331
TEST, 634 MSG
TEST, 58
TEST, 501 HBO East
TEST, 9341
TEST, 209 ESPN2
TEST, 537 SHO East
TEST, 9346
TEST, 392 East DNS
TEST, 398 East DNS
TEST, 396 East DNS
TEST, 390 East DNS
TEST, 9352
TEST, 9353
TEST, 259 Universal HD
TEST, 9355
TEST, 138 PPV
TEST, 180 PPV
TEST, 181 PPV
TEST, 139 PPV
TEST, 9363
TEST, 9366
TEST, 9369
TEST, 9370
TEST, 292 Toon Dis HD
TEST, 9376

I see 9 old MPEG2 going to MPEG4 (306 & 552 are for HDNet & Movies) also 6 PPV channels and MSG (634) & ToonDis (292) moving from D10 to D11.

I see the East Coast HD DNS feeds. That's 21 of the feeds.

And another 19 TEST feeds, 12 of which are RSNs I guess. What are the other 7?


----------



## ziltomil

P Smith said:


> We have some changes !
> 
> TEST, 136
> TEST, 145
> TEST, 281
> TEST, 306
> TEST, 552
> TEST, 9321
> TEST, 245
> TEST, 206
> TEST, 9324
> TEST, 9325
> TEST, 9327
> TEST, 9328
> TEST, 9329
> TEST, 9330
> TEST, 9331
> TEST, 634
> TEST, 58
> TEST, 501
> TEST, 9341
> TEST, 209
> TEST, 537
> TEST, 9346
> TEST, 392
> TEST, 398
> TEST, 396
> TEST, 390
> TEST, 9352
> TEST, 9353
> TEST, 259
> TEST, 9355
> TEST, 138
> TEST, 180
> TEST, 181
> TEST, 139
> TEST, 9363
> TEST, 9366
> TEST, 9369
> TEST, 9370
> TEST, 292
> TEST, 9376


306<HDNet?
58 <new channel?
552<HDNet Movies?
292<repeated mpeg4 channel, possible new channel on D10?
634<repeated mpeg4 channel, possible new channel on D10?


----------



## petergaryr

306- HDNet is live!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Yes, it is!


----------



## VandyCWG

Looks like the new ESPN is live! WOW!!! Exciting day!

edit...

OK...maybe not...now I am getting a blank / black screen. But it is happening!!!


----------



## ziltomil

206 went dark


----------



## petergaryr

281 is dark also


----------



## Pop72&9

292 is showing CNBC.


----------



## ziltomil

Pop72&9 said:


> 292 is showing CNBC.


:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Chat room is Open ..

http://chat.dbstalk.com

Double Click on the 'DIRECTV HD TV' room


----------



## petergaryr

TNT 245 is also asleep.


----------



## Pop72&9

As is 209 ESPN2


----------



## Laker44

As 259 UHD


----------



## petergaryr

Toon Disney 292 has become CNBC HD.


----------



## Bofurley

I just checked and here is SE Kansas all the channels are live:
306
352
390
396
398
209
245
281
259
552
206 on my HR29-700 but is live on my 10-250


----------



## petergaryr

206 245 and 209 are back. 281 has disappeared.


----------



## Doug Brott

Looks like the switch has been made ..


----------



## Pop72&9

petergaryr said:


> 206 245 and 209 are back. 281 has disappeared.


I've got 281


----------



## petergaryr

Pop72&9 said:


> I've got 281


Yup...just came back.


----------



## Dolly

Wow :sunsmile: What a picture and it is even raining here!


----------



## Bofurley

I just checked my channel 292 is not CNBC!
Petergaryr is your 292 still showing CNBC?


----------



## petergaryr

292 is back to Toon Disney. They must be close to done with the migration.

BTW, 306-HDNet is looking really good.


----------



## Tiger62

> On 7/31/2008 ... waiting for morning ... expecting the 9 legacy HD channels to be in MPEG4 (Ka)
> 206/73 - ESPN HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 720p
> 209/72 - ESPN2 HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 720p
> 245/75 - TNT HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 259/74 - Universal HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 281/76 - HD Theater (was Discovery HD Theater) MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 306/79 - HDNet MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 501/70 - HBO East HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 537/71 - Showtime East HD MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i
> 552/78 - HDNet Movies (a,u) MPEG4(Ka)/MPEG2(Ku) 1080i


May be a dumb question, but will those 70's channels eventually disappear, or will the MPEG4 versions be placed there? ... are they at two places now for compatibility purposes?


----------



## inkahauts

Tiger62 said:


> May be a dumb question, but will those 70's channels eventually disappear, or will the MPEG4 versions be placed there? ... are they at two places now for compatibility purposes?


they are there only for compatability purposes.. the 70's will go away soon


----------



## Piratefan98

I saw in an earlier post that some of the national channels were also doing an MPEG2 to MPEG4 transition, namely.

CBS HD East - 80 to 390
NBC HD East - 82 to 392
ABC HD East - 86 to 396
FOX HD East - 88 to 398

After seeing that, I was wondering whether you have to subscribe to a certain package to get those channels. I don't get them with Choice Xtra w/HD. Not a big deal, as my locals are in HD.

Jeff


----------



## lovswr

petergaryr said:


> 292 is back to Toon Disney. They must be close to done with the migration.
> 
> BTW, 306-HDNet is looking really good.


I concur. Just before I left for work this morning , I tuned in to 306. As the picture was just some kind of antique room, it was the vivid & saturated colors that really stood out to me. This was at about 0608 Eastern.


----------



## syphix

Good morning, D11!! Glad to hear from ya'! :up::up::up:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

lovswr said:


> I concur. Just before I left for work this morning , I tuned in to 306. As the picture was just some kind of antique room, it was the vivid & saturated colors that really stood out to me. This was at about 0608 Eastern.


Likewise here early this morning....MPEG4 HD looks mighty fine. 

D11 is alive and well.


----------



## Jimmy 440

WWOR 9 & WPIX 11 NY are gone. 771 error !!


----------



## smiddy

I can't recall the name of the cartoon, but there was a tag line that went something like this: Twizzle-twazzle twiddle dum, time for this thread to be closed.  Hey this has been a lot of fun. Thanks to Sixto for keeping us monkeys well informed and to the multitude of <cough> geeks who keep it real, you all do fantastic stuff for DBSTalk. Keep it coming and let's hope that DirecTV 12 will come <cough> SOON!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I can't recall the name of the cartoon, but there was a tag line that went something like this: Twizzle-twazzle twiddle dum, time for this thread to be closed.  Hey this has been a lot of fun. Thanks to Sixto for keeping us monkeys well informed and to the multitude of <cough> geeks who keep it real, you all do fantastic stuff for DBSTalk. Keep it coming and let's hope that DirecTV 12 will come <cough> SOON!


Or else "Johnny Five is ALIVE" 

In any case. I share you view that thanks to many contributors here, especially Sixto...we have had a terrific run, and this story is on the past page.


----------



## dshu82

Piratefan98 said:


> I saw in an earlier post that some of the national channels were also doing an MPEG2 to MPEG4 transition, namely.
> 
> CBS HD East - 80 to 390
> NBC HD East - 82 to 392
> ABC HD East - 86 to 396
> FOX HD East - 88 to 398
> 
> After seeing that, I was wondering whether you have to subscribe to a certain package to get those channels. I don't get them with Choice Xtra w/HD. Not a big deal, as my locals are in HD.
> 
> Jeff


These are only for people who cannot recieve their locals via Sat or OTA. Waivers need to be acquired from local stations to be turned on.


----------



## Piratefan98

dshu82 said:


> These are only for people who cannot recieve their locals via Sat or OTA. Waivers need to be acquired from local stations to be turned on.


Thanks!


----------



## dem

dshu82 said:


> These are only for people who cannot recieve their locals via Sat or OTA. Waivers need to be acquired from local stations to be turned on.


You may also be able to get some of them if your local stations are owned by the networks. I still get NBCE and ABCE because the corresponding locals in my market are O&O by the networks, and it was useful to have them before my locals were available via Ka/MPEG4.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Wow - another great success for DirecTV


----------



## WERA689

I'm currently watching 306 HDNet, and, while the picture is superb, it does not show up in the guide at all! When I hit the blue button, it shows channel 327 CMTHD. If I bring up the entire guide, it doesn't show 306 either.
How soon til they get this corrected?

EDIT: This turned out to be a function of my favorites list not having 306 on it yet. Once I switched to "Channels I Get", it shows properly.


----------



## jefbal99

I had to reset my H20-600 to get the new version of ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, Universal, and HD Theatre. All were just black when I would tune to them around 625am ET. HDNet and HDNet Theatre worked fine.

After the reset, all channels came in, however, the new ESPNs had horrible audio/video sync issues. It was fairly close to spot on when I left for work at 730am

I noticed that the new channel slots for the HDNets and East DNS feeds have (D11) listed when you look at the channel information.


----------



## steveken

I just noticed on my H20-600 that my 206, 209, 245, 306, and 610 were taken out of my list. Not sure why, but thought I would post that up to see if anyone else might have had that problem.


----------



## loudo

steveken said:


> I just noticed on my H20-600 that my 206, 209, 245, 306, and 610 were taken out of my list. Not sure why, but thought I would post that up to see if anyone else might have had that problem.


If you are using a favorites list, you may have to add them to the list.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

With DIRECTV11 now live, I believe it's time to retire this thread. I'll leave it open but unstuck, and I ask you to move general discussion about DIRECTV11,now properly called 99(c), to this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134636

We all owe Sixto our thanks for all his hard work here.


----------



## Steve Robertson

I guess it is time to start a D12 thread


----------



## loudo

Stuart Sweet said:


> With DIRECTV11 now live, I believe it's time to retire this thread. I'll leave it open but unstuck, and I ask you to move general discussion about DIRECTV11,now properly called 99(c), to this thread:
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134636
> 
> We all owe Sixto our thanks for all his hard work here.


Thanks to Sixto and all of you who have helped educate us during the wait. Sometime we get Off Topic, but between TO, a lot of good information was shared.


----------



## seltech

Thank you Sixto! what a ride these past couple months have been. From watching the Sea Launch footage live to following TLE's for the next 4 months, to the launch of all mpeg 4 content for the first time this morning. We get to do it all again next year


----------



## LameLefty

Stuart Sweet said:


> With DIRECTV11 now live, I believe it's time to retire this thread.


Thanks kids, it's been fun. 

Thanks again to Sixto for keeping the info correlated and up to date.

This is Lefty . . . signing off!


----------



## Sixto

Thanks for all the teamwork ... looking great this morning ... also looking forward to 8/14 ... and beyond ... and D12!


----------



## Paul A

Sixto said:


> Thanks for all the teamwork ... looking great this morning ... alos looking forward to 8/14 ... and beyond ... and D12!


GREAT JOB SIXTO!!! What a ton of dedication and work. We really appreciate it!

Paul


----------



## FHSPSU67

Thanks, Sixto and Lamelefty!
It's been a fun ride


----------



## Radio Enginerd

ziltomil said:


> 58 <new channel?


I believe 58 is KQCA My Network TV in Sacramento. I assume it's moved to D11. I tunned it and it looked great this morning.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

You da man Sixto. Thanks for all the information.


----------



## webby_s

Thanks Sixto! Great info!


----------



## HoTat2

Thanks as well Sixto;

For all the hard work and no pay of course. You really don’t get that kind of dedication from people much nowadays. Without some sort of monetary compensation anyway.

And compliments to LameLefty as well. For all his expert input on commercial satellite technology. Been a great occasion. Look forward to doing it all over again with D12.


----------



## syphix

I can't begin to thank Sixto, LameLefty, P Smith and EVERYONE who made this thread the powerhouse source of D11 info! This thread was bookmarked, and my first source for "what's up" with D11. THANKS SO MUCH!!

** CONGRATS TO DIRECTV, BOEING AND SEA LAUNCH!! PERFECT EXECUTION -- "NOMINAL"! **

There's no downside to these MPEG2->MPEG4 conversions: beautiful picture, and less bandwidth. It even makes the HD Extra package sell itself!

Now...onto more nationals and D12...


----------



## kw2957

Sixto and LameLefty-
Hats off to you both. You guys showed such dedication and commitment to keeping us in the loop with the latest happenings from D11. I learned so much from this thread and for all of that I have to say THANK YOU. 

Take a much needed break and I look forward to the adventures of D12!

~kw2957


----------



## HOAGIEHEAD

A Big *THANKS *Sixto you have been a fountain of great information. You hard work and dedication have been phenomonal. This site is better because of people like you. THANK YOU!!!


----------



## reweiss

Sixto, you've made Long Island proud (I'm a former Long Islander). Great work in keeping us all aware of the latest statuses of D11.


----------



## HIGHWAY

thank you sixto, lamelefty & p smith for info.


----------



## bruinfever

Wow, seeing this thread unstuck kinda made my heart sink for a second!! Great work Sixto for keeping us informed everyday and can't wait till D12 launches!!


----------



## raoul5788

smiddy said:


> I can't recall the name of the cartoon, but there was a tag line that went something like this: Twizzle-twazzle twiddle dum, time for this thread to be closed.  Hey this has been a lot of fun. Thanks to Sixto for keeping us monkeys well informed and to the multitude of <cough> geeks who keep it real, you all do fantastic stuff for DBSTalk. Keep it coming and let's hope that DirecTV 12 will come <cough> SOON!


It went like this: trizzle, trazzle, trozzle trome, time for this one to come home!


----------



## ddobson

This has been fun. Thanks to everyone who helped. 

Its kind of like building a house. Some of the fun is in building. Can't wait for it to be done, but when it is done there's mixed feelings. Some of the excitement is gone when its all done...

We can look forward to D-12. You guys all did an AWESOME job.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

While we're thanking everyone, honorable mention to Satelliteracer for providing some legitimate information about the offical go live of D11.


----------



## yankeesfan

I called D* this morning to add the HD Extra Pack and they told me my Burlington, VT were available in HD. I told her to add them but nothing has showed up yet but I have my fingers crossed.


----------



## gpg

Thanks to everyone who kept us informed.


----------



## Ernie

Steve Robertson said:


> I guess it is time to start a D12 thread


and a RB-1 thread


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve Robertson said:


> I guess it is time to start a D12 thread


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=134248&highlight=D12


----------



## hdtvfan0001

D11? D11?

D11 is so................so.................so...................yesterday......


----------



## dalime

Thank you to Sixto and LameLefty for keeping us so informed.


----------



## Drew2k

A big thanks to Sixto, LameLefty and the many others who provided information and patiently answered questions from dunderheads like me.... 

Off to the 99°(C) and D12 threads!


----------



## PoitNarf

I'd like to add my own big thank you to all that have contributed to this thread. You've taught many of us a whole lot!


----------



## Ed Campbell

Just adding thanks from a cranky old geek who truly appreciates the folks like Sixto who keep us on course. Especially skipping beyond the odd troll, now and then, who have anything but the best interests of D* subscribers in mind.

Y'all exemplify exactly the best reasons why we always stick with the forum.

That includes - of course - Earl who is presumably still lurking.


----------



## merchione

Thank You Sixto, lamelefty, p smith and Satelliteracer for all of your information and knowledge. Now on to the next one! D12


----------



## mcbeevee

Thanks to the sat pros in this thread. Lets hope D12 is Nom-Mee-Null, just like D11!

:righton:


----------



## smiddy

raoul5788 said:


> It went like this: trizzle, trazzle, trozzle trome, time for this one to come home!


Ding ding ding ding ding, we have a winner! Thanks!


----------



## katzeye

Thanks to all!


----------



## dcowboy7

since alot of people are:

a) getting 771s on the new mpeg4s.
b) getting 771s on wwor/wpix ny.

i guess this thread isnt done yet.


----------



## Newshawk

What a long, strange trip it's been... but now we get to reap the rewards of that trip. Thanks to all who shepherded us through the "birth" of D11. 

Let the Festivus begin!


----------



## Canis Lupus

I remember watching the launch with many of you in the Chat Room. Seems like it was actually a very short time ago. 

Thanks to all of you for monitoring the skies so earthbound users like myself didn't have to learn math. :lol: 

Thanks sixto, lamelefty, psmith and everyone else.


----------



## Button Pusher

Thanks to sixto,lamelefty and the rest that have made this thread great to read everyday!


----------



## Dolly

Drew2k said:


> A big thanks to Sixto, LameLefty and the many others who provided information and patiently answered questions from dunderheads like me....
> 
> Off to the 99°(C) and D12 threads!


Well said so I will just add my thanks :sunsmile: And Drew2k
you are not a dunderhead like I am


----------



## GlennDio

raoul5788 said:


> It went like this: trizzle, trazzle, trozzle trome, time for this one to come home!


It was tutor the turtle ... Mr.Wizard the lizard would turn him into something each espisode that Tutor thought he would like to be (e.g. a knight in King arthurs court) and then when he was about to be killed jousting he would scream for Mr. Wizard and Mr. Wizard would bring him back with "trizzle, trazzle, trozzle trome, time for this one to come home!"....and the quote "tutor, always I tell you be what you is not what you is not folks that do this is the happiest lot"!


----------



## bwaldron

GlennDio said:


> It was tutor the turtle ... Mr.Wizard the lizard would turn him into something each espisode that Tutor thought he would like to be (e.g. a knight in King arthurs court) and then when he was about to be killed jousting he would scream for Mr. Wizard and Mr. Wizard would bring him back with "trizzle, trazzle, trozzle trome, time for this one to come home!"....and the quote "tutor, always I tell you be what you is not what you is not folks that do this is the happiest lot"!


I'm feeling old...


----------



## steveken

wow, COMPLETELY off topic now.  I guess it IS time to poke this turkey and call it done. Great job everyone!!! Lovin the new content.


----------



## n3ntj

I'm waiting for D11 to turn on new HD channels and PBS HD feeds to get excited.


----------



## VeniceDre

Somebody help me here with the math here if I miss something:

So they moved (9) MPEG2 nationals over last night to D11:

ESPN
ESPN2
HDNet
HDNet Movies
UHD
HBO
SHO
TNT
Discovery HD Theater

And from P Smith's info (8) MPEG4 chans left D10 and migrated over to D11, which were 6 PPVs, MSG, & Toon Disney.

Then we have (8) West Coast and East Coast DNS + (12) RSNs going fulltime on D11.

So D11 has *37* slots already allocated.

If they keep to 5 Channels per TP does that leave us with *33 slots *for new future channels until D12 goes up?

Where does NFL Sunday ticket play in here also?

Seems like D11 is going to get full pretty fast.


----------



## Sixto

Been out most of today but may need to re-think the latest for 8/14 (more positive).

With P. Smith's latest D11 channel map, it looks like D11 now has the 9 legacy HD channels in MPEG4, 6 PPVHD's (at least 5 moved from D10), Toon Disney & MSG moved from D10, and the four East DNS. All "live".

In test, there's 4 DNS west, 1 Movie's Now, that Sacramento HD, ABC Family, and the 12 new fulltime RSN's.

So now maybe there aren't 6 new HD, just mostly moved from D10, to avoid to sharing that goes on now with the game only RSN's.

That leaves many possibilities for D11 on 8/14 ... gotta look at this further ... to make a better educated guess at 8/14 ... but it certainly looks like D10 is relieved as of right now. at least 7 channels have moved from D10.


----------



## Sixto

VeniceDre said:


> Somebody help me here with the math here if I miss something:
> 
> So they moved (9) MPEG2 nationals over last night to D11:
> 
> ESPN
> ESPN2
> HDNet
> HDNet Movies
> UHD
> HBO
> SHO
> TNT
> Discovery HD Theater
> 
> And from P Smith's info (8) MPEG4 chans left D10 and migrated over to D11, which were 6 PPVs, MSG, & Toon Disney.
> 
> Then we have (8) West Coast and East Coast DNS + (12) RSNs going fulltime on D11.
> 
> So D11 has *37* slots already allocated.
> 
> If they keep to 5 Channels per TP does that leave us with *33 slots *for new future channels until D12 goes up?
> 
> Where does NFL Sunday ticket play in here also?
> 
> Seems like D11 is going to get full pretty fast.


Just read your post after also posting.

Yep, mostly agree with the math. Gotta check channel 181, not sure that was on D10.

And there's that Movie's Now channel, and the Sacramento channel ...


----------



## rey_1178

thanks sixto and the rest of you that helped


----------



## Sixto

Figured it out ... looks like 6 PPVHD channels did move from D10 to D11, not 5.

They slightly changed the PPV HD channel assignments. Still 14 PPV HD in MPEG4, just now 8 on D10 and 6 on D11.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Figured it out ... looks like 6 PPVHD channels did move from D10 to D11, not 5.
> 
> They slightly changed the PPV HD channel assignments. Still 14 PPV HD in MPEG4, just now 8 on D10 and 6 on D11.


Thanks Sixto.

I guess what the various posts are getting at....what's left in terms of space on D10 and D11 *total *after all these moves (for National HD channels)?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks Sixto.
> 
> I guess what the various posts are getting at....what's left in terms of space on D10 and D11 *total *after all these moves (for National HD channels)?


8 moved from D10.

4 new East DNS, shutting off 110 (NBCE), 119 (CBSE, FOXE, ABCE) eventually.

4 new West DNS, shutting off 101 eventually.

9 new legacy, shutting off 110/119 eventually.

Totals 25.

12 RSN's makes 37. All on D11.

Same math as VeniceDre.

33 left assuming 5 per and only 14 transponders.

And 1 for Movie's Now.

And some space for 1080p.

And not sure if more needs to move from D10, especially if turning off 2 transponders eventually.


----------



## curt8403

Sixto said:


> 8 moved from D10.
> 
> 4 new East DNS, shutting off 101 eventually.
> 
> 4 new West DNS, shutting off 101 eventually.
> 
> 9 new legacy, shutting off 110/119 eventually.
> 
> Totals 25.
> 
> 12 RSN's makes 37. All on D11.
> 
> Same math as VeniceDre.
> 
> 33 left assuming 5 per and only 14 transponders.
> 
> And 1 for Movie's Now.
> 
> And some space for 1080p.
> 
> And not sure if more needs to move from D10, especially if turning off 2 transponders eventually.


East HD DNS from 119 not 101 
West HD DNS has been gone from 119 for months (to 103)


----------



## l8er

Thanks to all who contributed positively to the D11 thread. It's been real.


----------



## syphix

I'm confused reading this thread....

So, Sixto, there's only space for 33 more HD nationals on _both_ D10 & D11? Is that BEFORE or AFTER the 8/14 additions?

Just counted the channels in the "national HD channels NOT carried by DirecTV" thread: 25, not counting channels not launched yet (ESPNU HD, Chiller HD, etc. etc.).

Would/could DirecTV use 110/119 to transmit MPEG4 HD's (I'm guessing they can, but wouldn't because of the new Slimline3 being actively installed soon, and fewer new installs even "seeing" 110/119)?

Next fall is a LONG way away (latest timeline for D12's launch)...


----------



## xxx

I'm really confused at the whole thing now. D   

Perhaps, Sixto, you may know this. How many and what channels (national) will be launching on 8/14?

Do we have a COMPLETE list yet or are we speculating. We know from the PR that Showtimes, Planet Green, etc. will be there but wondering what is in store for us on that day. 

I think ESPNU will be launching on 8/28 or 8/31---I forget. And I am guessing that DTV will be carrying ESPNU (only wish that they wouldn't have that channel in the sports pack, but oh well)

Any light shed, will be mostly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## VeniceDre

curt8403 said:


> East HD DNS from 119 not 101
> West HD DNS has been gone from 119 for months (to 103)


I think the West HD DNS were actually moved temp to 101 but in MPEG4 to help with MDU transition. I don't think you need BBC converters connected for those. I read it somewhere here.

Either way, they are up on D11 under TEST channels so they are moving there eventually with the East Coast counterparts.


----------



## VeniceDre

syphix said:


> I'm confused reading this thread....
> 
> So, Sixto, there's only space for 33 more HD nationals on _both_ D10 & D11? Is that BEFORE or AFTER the 8/14 additions?
> 
> Just counted the channels in the "national HD channels NOT carried by DirecTV" thread: 25, not counting channels not launched yet (ESPNU HD, Chiller HD, etc. etc.).


The math I came up with that Sixto is quoting shows around 33 slots even less when you consider a couple of the other TEST channels (Movie Now, etc). It seems to me after they balance D10 to 70 channels, and they add the 12 fulltime RSNS we'll have around only 30 slots left. Maybe that's why they say "Beginning August 14, DIRECTV will launch more than 30 additional HD channels, bringing the total HD channel lineup to 130."

14 TPs x 5 Channels on D10 + 14TPs x 5 Channels on D11 = 140 Channels.


----------



## syphix

VeniceDre said:


> The math I came up with that Sixto is quoting shows around 33 slots even less when you consider a couple of the other TEST channels (Movie Now, etc). It seems to me after they balance D10 to 70 channels, and they add the 12 fulltime RSNS we'll have around only 30 slots left. Maybe that's why they say they'll start adding 30 more HD channels.


Wow...I never thought D11 would fill up that quickly!:eek2: That means that it'll be full by the end of the year! And as someone posted, how does the NFL package work in??

Well, they have space for the only five channels I want:
Travel Channel HD
WGN America HD
AMC HD
Fox News HD
and the rest of the HBO's

(ok....so that's more like 8...but they have the room!)


----------



## curt8403

VeniceDre said:


> I think the West HD DNS were actually moved temp to 101 but in MPEG4 to help with MDU transition. I don't think you need BBC converters connected for those. I read it somewhere here.
> 
> Either way, they are up on D11 under TEST channels so they are moving there eventually with the East Coast counterparts.


no, they were moved to 103 lo hence they do not need a b band,


----------



## curt8403

syphix said:


> Wow...I never thought D11 would fill up that quickly!:eek2: That means that it'll be full by the end of the year! And as someone posted, how does the NFL package work in??


let me guess. when the nfl starts, they will just compress the channels a bit more to squeeze a few more channels
but a channel that has 10% compression will not suffer much if it jumps to 12% compression


----------



## evan_s

curt8403 said:


> no, they were moved to 103 lo hence they do not need a b band,


103 lo would require a bbc. 103 hi would be the one that wouldn't need a bcc and that is currently only Spaceway and doesn't have any Conus transponders so I don't see how the DNS could be on that.


----------



## curt8403

evan_s said:


> 103 lo would require a bbc. 103 hi would be the one that wouldn't need a bcc and that is currently only Spaceway and doesn't have any Conus transponders so I don't see how the DNS could be on that.


you are correct, I should have said that they were on the 103 Lo, I always confuse the 2 bands and frequencies


----------



## Malibu13

My Thanks to all who contributed to the success of this thread and for keeping it civil (most of the time  ) It was a most interesting and very informative ride. I have been here at DBSTalk nearly 4 years now and must say that you guys are amazing with your knowledge and (speculation :lol: )

Now have fun and enjoy the new HD content.


----------



## Sixto

curt8403 said:


> East HD DNS from 119 not 101
> West HD DNS has been gone from 119 for months (to 103)


As of 7/27 ...

East DNS HD were 110 (TP12: NBCE) and 119 (TP24: CBSE, FOXE, TP32: ABCE).

West DNS HD were 101 (TP2: NBCW, ABCW, FOXW, TP24: CBSW).

Have corrected the post for East DNS.


----------



## VeniceDre

Sixto said:


> As of 7/27 ...
> 
> East DNS HD were 110 (TP12: NBCE) and 119 (TP24: CBSE, FOXE, TP32: ABCE).
> 
> West DNS HD were 101 (TP2: NBCW, ABCW, FOXW, TP24: CBSW).
> 
> Have corrected the post for East DNS.


I knew I wasn't losing my mind on WEST DNS HD being on 101, even though they switched it to MPEG4 they kept it somehow on 101 so the MDUs that hadn't upgraded to the new dish systems could still see it off 101 using the H & HR MPEG4 series boxes.


----------



## Sixto

xxx said:


> Perhaps, Sixto, you may know this. How many and what channels (national) will be launching on 8/14?


The press release says 130 on 8/14.

Currently have 95.

130-95=35.

35 new using the counting methodology from all along ...


----------



## syphix

So, after 8/14, there's only 33 slots left for HD nationals?


----------



## VeniceDre

syphix said:


> So, after 8/14, there's only 33 slots left for HD nationals?


Nope, after they add West Coast DNS and the 12 part RSNS there will be about 33 slots left.

9 MPEG2, 4 East Coast DNS, Toon Dis, MSG, 6 PPV went live on D11 this morning. Thats 21 existing channels right there, add 12 RSNs, and 4 West Coast DNS we'll be at 37 before we get to the additions. So 33 slots for new channels.

That's all based on 5 channels on each TP, and 14 TPs.


----------



## curt8403

VeniceDre said:


> Nope, after they add West Coast DNS and the 12 part RSNS there will be about 33 slots left.
> 
> 9 MPEG2, 4 East Coast DNS, Toon Dis, MSG, 6 PPV went live on D11 this morning. Thats 21 existing channels right there, add 12 RSNs, and 4 West Coast DNS we'll be at 37 before we get to the additions. So 33 slots for new channels.


remember 9 MPEG2 = 5 MPEG4


----------



## dcowboy7

syphix said:


> So, after 8/14, there's only 33 slots left for HD nationals?





VeniceDre said:


> Nope, after they add West Coast DNS and the 12 part RSNS there will be about 33 slots left.
> 
> 9 MPEG2, 4 East Coast DNS, Toon Dis, MSG, 6 PPV went live on D11 this morning. Thats 21 existing channels right there, add 12 RSNs, and 4 West Coast DNS we'll be at 37 before we get to the additions. So 33 slots for new channels.
> 
> That's all based on 5 channels on each TP, and 14 TPs.


im lost....didnt he say that ?


----------



## syphix

VeniceDre said:


> Nope, after they add West Coast DNS and the 12 part RSNS there will be about 33 slots left.
> 
> 9 MPEG2, 4 East Coast DNS, Toon Dis, MSG, 6 PPV went live on D11 this morning. Thats 21 existing channels right there, add 12 RSNs, and 4 West Coast DNS we'll be at 37 before we get to the additions. So 33 slots for new channels.


Still confused...the 8/14 additions were supposed to amount to 30+...how many will be left??


----------



## VeniceDre

curt8403 said:


> remember 9 MPEG2 = 5 MPEG4


Huh?

It has nothing to do with compression size. DirecTV is putting 5 "MPEG4" channels per TP on D10 and D11.


----------



## VeniceDre

dcowboy7 said:


> im lost....didnt he say that ?


:lol:

I think he meant after the new channel additions on 8/14. Whatever *NEW NATIONAL CHANNELS* added on the 8/14 will come out of the 33 number (Planet Green, ABC Family, the SHOs, and whatever else they add on that day.

It all depends on what they launch that day.


----------



## VeniceDre

syphix said:


> Still confused...the 8/14 additions were supposed to amount to 30+...how many will be left??


The release says they will *start* adding 30+ channels that day.

I'm shutting up now.

:lol:


----------



## syphix

VeniceDre said:


> :lol:
> 
> I think he meant after the new channel additions on 8/14. Whatever *NEW NATIONAL CHANNELS* added on the 8/14 will come out of the 33 number (Planet Green, ABC Family, the SHOs, and whatever else they add on that day.
> 
> It all depends on what they launch that day.


Do the "additional PPV HD's count? That's in the press release for 8/14...if NOT...then..

Planet Green HD
ABC Family HD
Showtime Extreme HD
Showtime Showcase HD

That's four channels out of the 33, so 29?

And if the PPV HD's count, then who knows how many will be left...D11 is filling up faster and faster!!


----------



## VeniceDre

syphix said:


> Do the "additional PPV HD's count? That's in the press release for 8/14...if NOT...then..
> 
> Planet Green HD
> ABC Family HD
> Showtime Extreme HD
> Showtime Showcase HD
> 
> That's four channels out of the 33, so 29?
> 
> And if the PPV HD's count, then who knows how many will be left...D11 is filling up faster and faster!!


Now we're on same page buddy. :lol:

I hope they don't add more than a few HD PPV channels. For chrissakes, how many do we need?


----------



## curt8403

VeniceDre said:


> Now we're on same page buddy. :lol:
> 
> I hope they don't add more than a few HD PPV channels. For chrissakes, how many do we need?


just remember a HD PPV is a bigger money maker than Planet Green


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> Wow...I never thought D11 would fill up that quickly!:eek2: That means that it'll be full by the end of the year!


Isn't that assuming that all the available transponders are activated and used?

Somehow, with 130 HD Channels...it would appear there would still be at least 4 free transponders left.

But then...I only got B's in math.  :lol:


----------



## syphix

VeniceDre said:


> Now we're on same page buddy. :lol:
> 
> I hope they don't add more than a few HD PPV channels. For chrissakes, how many do we need?


I counted (from the "HD channels not on D*" thread) 23 channels (not counting Planet Green HD and ABC Family HD)....and that's not counting channels coming up later this year (ESPNU, Chiller HD, etc. etc.). D11 will be filled before Christmas.

Now, I understand the philosophy: "Add as many PPV HD's as they need to fill D11...mine as well use the transponders/bandwidth..you're paying for it." But I hope they're willing to REMOVE PPV HD's to get NATIONAL HD's up...


----------



## syphix

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Isn't that assuming that all the available transponders are activated and used?
> 
> Somehow, with 130 HD Channels...it would appear there would still be at least 4 free transponders left.
> 
> But then...I only got B's in math.  :lol:


Four ACTIVE transponders left on D11? Or total, between D10 & D11?


----------



## mlb

syphix said:


> Now, I understand the philosophy: "Add as many PPV HD's as they need to fill D11...mine as well use the transponders/bandwidth..you're paying for it." But I hope they're willing to REMOVE PPV HD's to get NATIONAL HD's up...


Exactly. That is the issue. As long as Dish, cable, and FiOS are pushing them then they will be motivated to cut back on the PPV and add the nationals.


----------



## Drew2k

syphix said:


> Now, I understand the philosophy: "Add as many PPV HD's as they need to fill D11...mine as well use the transponders/bandwidth..you're paying for it." But I hope they're willing to REMOVE PPV HD's to get NATIONAL HD's up...


Satellite Racer did make a comment to that affect in the Press Release thread - that it's easier to put up a PPV HD channel and take it away as needed, than to remove a dedicated national HD channel.


----------



## syphix

Does D* currently count PPV HD's to get to their claimed "95 HD channels"?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

syphix said:


> Four ACTIVE transponders left on D11? Or total, between D10 & D11?


Total.....20 channels worth...


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> Does D* currently count PPV HD's to get to their claimed "95 HD channels"?


Yes. 15 of 95 are PPV-HD. All detailed here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1191378#post1191378


----------



## Doug Brott

You guys let me know when you're done calculating


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> You guys let me know when you're done calculating


I still have 24 fingers and toes to work with... 

*(True Confessions :lol: )*


----------



## Tom Robertson

Simple answer--they ain't dun yet, the pattern isn't full.


----------



## syphix

I just "calculated" that if D* were to count their 1 VOD-HD channel (Smithsonian, to be fair) and all their "part time" HD RSN's, they'd be at 115 HD's right now.

They beat Dish Network's claim of going to 114 HD's tomorrow.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

syphix said:


> Do the "additional PPV HD's count? That's in the press release for 8/14...if NOT...then..
> 
> Planet Green HD
> ABC Family HD
> Showtime Extreme HD
> Showtime Showcase HD
> 
> That's four channels out of the 33, so 29?
> 
> * And if the PPV HD's count, then who knows how many will be left...D11 is filling up faster and faster!!*


I know.

I just counted 9 HD PPV channels as of right now, and out of those 9, three of them have the same movie on.

My question is, whey do we need so many PPV channels? Instead of having the same movie on 3 different channels, and showing the same movie on the same channel through out the day, why not spread the movies out on less channels over they day? I mean we can always find the movie we want, record it and watch it later.


----------



## syphix

theratpatrol said:


> I know.
> 
> I just counted 9 HD PPV channels as of right now, and out of those 9, three of them have the same movie on.
> 
> My question is, whey do we need so many PPV channels? Instead of having the same movie on 3 different channels, and showing the same movie on the same channel through out the day, why not spread the movies out on less channels over they day? I mean we can always find the movie we want, record it and watch it later.


I love your idea, but I have a sneaky suspicion that we'd be surprised by how FEW DirecTV customers actually have a DVR...


----------



## bobnielsen

syphix said:


> I love your idea, but I have a sneaky suspicion that we'd be surprised by how FEW DirecTV customers actually have a DVR...


I suspect the percentage is much higher for those with HD than for SD.


----------



## spectrumsp

Well now...now that we have this mission accomplished, what's the launch date for D 12?


----------



## TheRatPatrol

syphix said:


> I love your idea, but I have a sneaky suspicion that we'd be surprised by how FEW DirecTV customers actually have a DVR...


Then they need to upgrade.


----------



## DodgerKing

curt8403 said:


> just remember a HD PPV is a bigger money maker than Planet Green


Seriously, how many do they need? The all pretty much show the same things.


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> I counted (from the "HD channels not on D*" thread) 23 channels (not counting Planet Green HD and ABC Family HD)....and that's not counting channels coming up later this year (ESPNU, Chiller HD, etc. etc.). D11 will be filled before Christmas.
> 
> Now, I understand the philosophy: "Add as many PPV HD's as they need to fill D11...mine as well use the transponders/bandwidth..you're paying for it." But I hope they're willing to REMOVE PPV HD's to get NATIONAL HD's up...


If they are simply using them as place holders, which allows them to make money, then I have no issues with it.


----------



## DodgerKing

syphix said:


> I just "calculated" that if D* were to count their 1 VOD-HD channel (Smithsonian, to be fair) and all their "part time" HD RSN's, they'd be at 115 HD's right now.
> 
> They beat Dish Network's claim of going to 114 HD's tomorrow.


There's my new sig. Thanks!


----------



## l8er

Doug Brott said:


> You guys let me know when you're done calculating


 Can I cipher too? I was a double knot spy in a former life.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

l8er said:


> Can I cipher too? I was a double knot spy in a former life.


You go Jethro....


----------



## DarinC

syphix said:


> So, after 8/14, there's only 33 slots left for HD nationals?


Even if that were the case, is that a huge deal? It almost seems like the numbers are becoming more important than the content. Personally, beyond Travel, and maybe a few more premiums, there's not much more HD I would watch. 80% of what's recorded on my HR _now_, I'll never get around to. I would MUCH rather they focus on quality before quantity. I'd really hate to get back to where we ended up with SD: hundreds of channels that _look _like @ss, but are less fullfilling. :nono:


----------



## syphix

@DarinC: point taken. Well said, and I _completely_ agree. I'm only waiting for about 6-8 more channels that I want (Travel Channel HD!!!), and I'm set.


----------



## DarinC

And I wasn't ragging on you... I spent a lot of time reading a thread today about the Dish PR, and it just seems like so many (on both sides) are caught up in a channel count competition. We just TODAY got rid of the last of the last of the overcompressed HD channels. Just hoping we don't go back. DirecTV wants to market themselves as a premium provider. Let's see if they mean it.


----------



## JayPSU

Honestly, all I want in addition to what we already have is the HBO/Cinemax/Starz multi-plex channels. When/IF they add those, I'll be 100% happy.


----------



## Sixto

Parked ... a little tighter ...


Code:


DirecTV-11(TLE135)
1 32729U 08013A   08214.23405301 -.00000141  00000-0  00000+0 0  1356
2 32729 000.0208 092.0612 0001405 133.9712 069.1766 01.00270629  1464

NORAD #			32729
COSPAR designator	2008-013-A  
Epoch (UTC)		08-01-2008 05:37:02
Orbit # at Epoch	146
Inclination		0.021
RA of A. Node		92.061
Eccentricity		0.0001405
Argument of Perigee	133.971
Revs per day		1.00270629
Period			23h 56m 06s (1436.10 min)
Semi-major axis		42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 781 x 35 793 km
Element number / age	135 / 0 day(s)

Lon			99.2163° W
Lat			0.0243° S
Alt (km)		35 784.310

[U]Perigee(bottom of orbit) x Apogee(top of orbit) - Target is 35,786 x 35,786 km (Circular)[/U]
TLE#135(08-01-2008 05:37:02) 35,781 x 35,793 km (+47.1 hours,at 134.5 days,  99.22°)
TLE#134(07-30-2008 06:33:57) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+47.6 hours,at 132.5 days,  99.21°)
TLE#133(07-28-2008 06:57:49) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+19.5 hours,at 130.6 days,  99.21°)
TLE#132(07-27-2008 11:26:19) 35,779 x 35,795 km (+27.4 hours,at 129.7 days,  99.21°)
TLE#131(07-26-2008 08:01:32) 35,779 x 35,794 km (+ 0.0 hours,at 128.6 days,  99.20°)

Last 5 TLE's above ... 

[URL="http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1508286#post1508286"]Post #2[/URL] has the overview and complete TLE history ...


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## LameLefty

DarinC said:


> And I wasn't ragging on you... I spent a lot of time reading a thread today about the Dish PR, and it just seems like so many (on both sides) are caught up in a channel count competition. We just TODAY got rid of the last of the last of the overcompressed HD channels. Just hoping we don't go back. DirecTV wants to market themselves as a premium provider. Let's see if they mean it.


Excellent point. It kind of reminds me of the "Megahertz Wars" between Intel, AMD and the PowerPC consortium in the 90's and early 2000's. Everyone fussing and fuming about the numbers of cycles per second their processors could churn through, but never mind graphics performance, memory and disk bandwidth, etc. It was all about who could claim the fastest clock speed. Usability and functionality took a back seat.

I agree that Directv's 30-odd remaining national HD should be plenty for the next year or so. D12 will fill in the gaps later.


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## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I agree that Directv's 30-odd remaining national HD should be plenty for the next year or so. D12 will fill in the gaps later.


I'm with ya on that....besides....we won't have to squint while watching our HD, like that other sat brand's customers...  :lol:


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## tkrandall

I vote give me quality of picture over quantity of channels.


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## TerryB

This weekend I will try a tweak of the sl5 dish to raise the 99(c) from a usable but dodgey 75-80 range up to a 90+. The other birds are between 95-100 so I'm hoping a nudge in elevation will make the numbers look better.

TerryB


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## baker60

DarinC said:


> And I wasn't ragging on you... I spent a lot of time reading a thread today about the Dish PR, and it just seems like so many (on both sides) are caught up in a channel count competition. We just TODAY got rid of the last of the last of the overcompressed HD channels. Just hoping we don't go back. DirecTV wants to market themselves as a premium provider. Let's see if they mean it.


I agree, can't watch all that's on now and have any kind of family life, to say nothing about work life. I want the channels I watch to be worth watching and to have good PQ. "E.T." looked great on channel 552 last night and what I saw of TNT and ESPN were of high PQ. D-11 certainly was worth the wait.


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## syphix

DarinC said:


> And I wasn't ragging on you... I spent a lot of time reading a thread today about the Dish PR, and it just seems like so many (on both sides) are caught up in a channel count competition. We just TODAY got rid of the last of the last of the overcompressed HD channels. Just hoping we don't go back. DirecTV wants to market themselves as a premium provider. Let's see if they mean it.


I _completely_ agree. 110%. I was hoping to just point out how surprised I was at how quickly D11 was filling up.

And, unfortunately, we're a "quantity" driven market ("size matters").


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## kd3yt1

I posted this question in a separate thread yesterday and no replies at all. Maybe you guys can answer it here as it concerns D11. Will they be adding more HD locals after the first of the years. I am in Johnstown-Altoona Pa DMA 98 or 99 and we are not on the list of the 44 to be done by end of the year.


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## syphix

kd3yt1 said:


> I posted this question in a separate thread yesterday and no replies at all. Maybe you guys can answer it here as it concerns D11. Will they be adding more HD locals after the first of the years. I am in Johnstown-Altoona Pa DMA 98 or 99 and we are not on the list of the 44 to be done by end of the year.


Only DirecTV knows the answer to that...sorry.


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## jefbal99

kd3yt1 said:


> I posted this question in a separate thread yesterday and no replies at all. Maybe you guys can answer it here as it concerns D11. Will they be adding more HD locals after the first of the years. I am in Johnstown-Altoona Pa DMA 98 or 99 and we are not on the list of the 44 to be done by end of the year.


yes


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## kymikes

kd3yt1 said:


> I posted this question in a separate thread yesterday and no replies at all. Maybe you guys can answer it here as it concerns D11. Will they be adding more HD locals after the first of the years. I am in Johnstown-Altoona Pa DMA 98 or 99 and we are not on the list of the 44 to be done by end of the year.


Will they be adding additional HD locals? Yes but who and when seems to be one of life's major mystery's. I'm in Lexington, KY DMA (#60 something) and all local majors have been broadcasting in HD and "penetration" numbers are good (opportunity metric best I can determine) and we aren't in that list either. I can't see any vehicle to determine any of the 'why's' and I am guessing that you are in a similar situation. Good luck.


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## dcowboy7

JayPSU said:


> Honestly, all I want in addition to what we already have is the HBO/Cinemax/Starz multi-plex channels. When/IF they add those, I'll be 100% happy.


ok so it sounds like u are a movie fan....then why wouldnt u want amc hd ?

or fox movie channel hd (if there is) as well ?


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## Hdhead

kd3yt1 said:


> I posted this question in a separate thread yesterday and no replies at all. Maybe you guys can answer it here as it concerns D11. Will they be adding more HD locals after the first of the years. I am in Johnstown-Altoona Pa DMA 98 or 99 and we are not on the list of the 44 to be done by end of the year.


Maybe a better question is - Does the announced locals to be added this year fill out the current capacity for D* to add more locals? Any takers? If this is the case you will have to wait for D12.


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## syphix

dcowboy7 said:


> ok so it sounds like u are a movie fan....then why wouldnt u want amc hd ?


Commercials. 


> or fox movie channel hd (if there is) as well ?


I wish their was one.


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## dcowboy7

syphix said:


> Commercials.


not with a dvr. (basically)


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## harsh

syphix said:


> Only DirecTV knows the answer to that...sorry.


But you may find someone at each of the local stations that is willing to blab.


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## l8er

dcowboy7 said:


> ...then why wouldnt u want amc hd ?
> ....


 Cutting, editing and commercials would be 3 reasons. :grin:


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## Tom Robertson

Hdhead said:


> Maybe a better question is - Does the announced locals to be added this year fill out the current capacity for D* to add more locals? Any takers? If this is the case you will have to wait for D12.


The locals thru the end of the year should not fill the entire capacity of the constellation of Ka satellites. Since DIRECTV can and does move them around as capacity comes online, it doesn't seem to matter if D11 is filled, really we're pretty sure they haven't filled the 1,500 channels capacity of the group.

As previously mentioned, the tricky part is knowing which/when.

And the local stations might have a clue--that they very well might be wrong about. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## dcowboy7

l8er said:


> Cutting, editing and commercials would be 3 reasons. :grin:


but they showed planet of the apes the other day....i would say not much is really cut and edited....plus i cann ff thru commercials.


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## Paul A

JayPSU said:


> Honestly, all I want in addition to what we already have is the HBO/Cinemax/Starz multi-plex channels. When/IF they add those, I'll be 100% happy.


I'm with you!


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## MrDad0330

My number one on the wish list is Fox News in HD. With the election coming up and how good all those Fox babes look....HD would be wonderful... in total viewing time, I probably watch ch 360 more than any other....Please "D" give us Fox New HD...or even better yet...give us that and drop CNN HD...


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## yuppers519

MrDad0330 said:


> My number one on the wish list is Fox News in HD. With the election coming up and how good all those Fox babes look....HD would be wonderful... in total viewing time, I probably watch ch 360 more than any other....Please "D" give us Fox New HD...or even better yet...give us that and drop CNN HD...


I could'nt agree with you more. PLEASE D* give us Foxnews HD


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## Old Tv Watcher

yuppers519 said:


> I could'nt agree with you more. PLEASE D* give us Foxnews HD


 Me too!


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## curt8403

Old Tv Watcher said:


> Me too!


Fox Business Network is in HD, let us all work to request that Directv add Fox news IN HD as soon as possible


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## Tom Robertson

Guys, this isn't a "Request your favorite channel" thread. We already have those.

If you're saying that this thread is done... 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Radio Enginerd

Tom Robertson said:


> Guys, this isn't a "Request your favorite channel" thread. We already have those.
> 
> If you're saying that this thread is done...
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I think you might want to put a fork in this bad boy.


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## P Smith

DONE, done.

Time to close it.


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## curt8403

P Smith said:


> DONE, done.
> 
> Time to close it.


sad to say, but I vote to close this thread as well, useful discussion has run it's course, and it will just get more crocked the longer it goes on/


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## techrep

Wait untill Monday.


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## MikeR7

curt8403 said:


> sad to say, but I vote to close this thread as well, useful discussion has run it's course, and it will just get more crocked the longer it goes on/


I agree. :lol:


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## Tom Robertson

Since I only seem to be posting warnings in this thread these days, and now the thread has become a vote about to keep the thread open, I think I'll close. 

(I don't mind the suggestions to close or not close. Thanks.)

Cheers,
Tom


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