# DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features



## Earl Bonovich

*DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features*



> EL SEGUNDO & ALVISO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 31, 2007--DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSETV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ:TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the Series2(TM) platform.
> 
> Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection(TM), as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature. In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers.
> 
> "It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to exploring additional opportunities with TiVo," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc.
> 
> "DIRECTV's launch of these additional features underscores the uniqueness of TiVo's DVR service," said Naveen Chopra, vice president, Corporate Development and Strategy for TiVo.
> 
> DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo. In April 2006, both companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship through early 2010.


See the rest of the press release at: *DirecTV Investor Relations*


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## litzdog911

Very pleasant surprise!


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## tomertl

I noticed several days ago that the old "over shoot" when fast forwarding option is back! Whether you are at 1X, 2X,3X or 4X it will jump back a couple seconds. I love that feature!

Is this the featire they are talking about, and is it already here for others?


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## premio

(earl: you're link is bad, I had to cut n paste it to work)

I must admit that I'm extremely suprised to see this as we've all speculated how small the numbers of tivo units must be getting. Could the problems with the HR20 be opening the higher ups eyes to just 'outsourcing' the solution again? Granted this announcement is for the S2's, but it makes you wonder ...

Can I expect remote booking on my HR20 now? hmm


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## Earl Bonovich

tomertl said:


> I noticed several days ago that the old "over shoot" when fast forwarding option is back! Whether you are at 1X, 2X,3X or 4X it will jump back a couple seconds. I love that feature!
> 
> Is this the featire they are talking about, and is it already here for others?


That is the HR20...

The press release is about the DTivos


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## machavez00

remote booking?


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## Earl Bonovich

premio said:


> (earl: you're link is bad, I had to cut n paste it to work)


Thanks... fixed it.



premio said:


> I must admit that I'm extremely suprised to see this as we've all speculated how small the numbers of tivo units must be getting.


The SD's are still a very large population, while the HD's are decreasing rapidly



premio said:


> Could the problems with the HR20 be opening the higher ups eyes to just 'outsourcing' the solution again? Granted this announcement is for the S2's, but it makes you wonder ...


I wouldn't read into it "that" much... just the continuation of enhancing a platform, they have no intentions of "turning-off".



premio said:


> Can I expect remote booking on my HR20 now? hmm


That was already announced a whiles back... so yes... you can expect remote booking for the HR20.


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## markman07

Is Remote Booking basically a version/module like that of tivowebplus (schedule / manage) your Tivo?


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## skessel

Sorry, what DirecTV Tivo's are built on the Series2 platform? Is the HR10-250 one of them?

SK


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## Earl Bonovich

skessel said:


> Sorry, what DirecTV Tivo's are built on the Series2 platform? Is the HR10-250 one of them?
> 
> SK


The Vast majority of them... minues the very very old ones:

The HDVR2, R10, DSR704/708... there are several other models

The HR10-250 was built on the Series 2 platform.


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## Earl Bonovich

markman07 said:


> Is Remote Booking basically a version/module like that of tivowebplus (schedule / manage) your Tivo?


Yes


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## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> *DIRECTV to Introduce Additional TiVo Features*
> 
> See the rest of the press release at: *DirecTV Investor Relations*


Good news indeed and a clear acknowledgement of TiVo's value to DirecTVs bottom line.

Only a couple more months until we officially have what other TiVos have had for quite awhile now.


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## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> Good news indeed and a clear acknowledgement of TiVo's value to DirecTVs bottom line.


It's a two way street.... it also helps out TiVo, Inc.
For every account that no longer has a TiVo powered unit on it, is one less portion of the DVR fee TiVo, Inc. receives...

So it helps TiVo's bottom line as well.


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## skessel

Earl Bonovich said:


> The Vast majority of them... minues the very very old ones:
> 
> The HDVR2, R10, DSR704/708... there are several other models
> 
> The HR10-250 was built on the Series 2 platform.


Thanks Earl, I am very excited on the remote booking feature. What's the ETA for the feature on the HR20? Do we know?

SK


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## fmcbride

Any idea as to if this applies to the HR10 or just the non-HD tivos?


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## Earl Bonovich

skessel said:


> Thanks Earl, I am very excited on the remote booking feature. What's the ETA for the feature on the HR20? Do we know?
> 
> SK


No eta... it will be close to the time frame of VOD's release, from what I understand.


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## Earl Bonovich

fmcbride said:


> Any idea as to if this applies to the HR10 or just the non-HD tivos?


No definitive in the press-release...
But isolating it just to the HR10-250 would be pointless (IMHO), since that particular system is going to depreciate in value signficantly in September (aka no ability to access the new HD networks, and the SAT based ones that it can are being converted).

So I would have to put a educated guess on it being primarily the SD versions.


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## chevroletman20042000

will the remote booking use the standard phone line connecting on the tivo units? i am guessing the remote booking is like the internet scheduling?


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## spanishannouncetable

chevroletman20042000 said:


> will the remote booking use the standard phone line connecting on the tivo units? i am guessing the remote booking is like the internet scheduling?


The software update will likely enable the USB ports on S2 models, making it easy to add a wireless network connection to your DTiVos. If anything, it would make the phone connection _less_ useful, not more


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## SteveHas

Does anyone know if my Philips/Tivo models called out below Series 2 units?


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## jaywdetroit

> "It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to exploring additional opportunities with TiVo," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc.


Am I the only one here that is wondering if this means a new HD TiVo unit may be in the works?


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## MikeW

Does this mean hacked Tivos will need to lose MRV and HME to gain these features? I can use TivoWeb now to "undelete" so all I'd really miss is remote scheduling. Wouldn't be a good trade-off. 

It would make sense on D*'s part to add MRV and HME to the standard build. As they work towards IP based communications, this would encourage users to add networking to their Tivos. They could use the internet for PPV authorizations and card balance checking, eliminate the phone calls to save money on the call-ins. It would also discourage the hacker community because the box would already do what the end-users want it to do.


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## litzdog911

SteveHas said:


> Does anyone know if my Philips/Tivo models called out below Series 2 units?


Yes, the DSR7000 DirecTivos are considered "Series 2" platforms.


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## litzdog911

jaywdetroit said:


> Am I the only one here that is wondering if this means a new HD TiVo unit may be in the works?


Don't hold your breath. Although Tivo did just announce a cheaper standalone HD Tivo for use with Cable TV and CableCards.


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## SteveHas

Booya!
Sweet!
Thanks litzdog911
:hurah:


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## jaywdetroit

litzdog911 said:


> Don't hold your breath. Although Tivo did just announce a cheaper standalone HD Tivo for use with Cable TV and CableCards.


I'm certainly not going to hold my breath, but I can't help but wonder...


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## Mixer

Cool some very awesome features for my SD T* based box. I am exicted about this. 

I hope that internet sceduling can be done through phone line. Is it possible that it could be sent VIA sat like software updates are?

All in all though I am very psyched. Great job to T* and D* for working together to keep us taken care of.


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## Dusty

Earl Bonovich said:


> No eta... it will be close to the time frame of VOD's release, from what I understand.


That is a good news. This time frame is a lot closer that I hoped.

What about "recently deleted folder"? Would this be something HR20 development team is considering?


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## SoCool

I guess I better get that R10 out of the closet and shine it up!


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## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> Am I the only one here that is wondering if this means a new HD TiVo unit may be in the works?


Big difference between spending the millions to research and develop a new unit...

And adding existing code to software already designed for it... and pushing it out to update some 4,000,000 SD-DirecTivos..

More bang for the $$ with the update to the SD-DTivos


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## jal

This is good news. I hope this means that in the future, Directv will produce new Directivo boxes. Fixing up the old ones this way sure means that Directv understands the importance of Tivo to many of its customers. 

In any event, for those interested, Circuit City is selling Samsung Directivos NIB for $78 on their website right now.


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## jaywdetroit

Earl Bonovich said:


> Big difference between spending the millions to research and develop a new unit...
> 
> And adding existing code to software already designed for it... and pushing it out to update some 4,000,000 SD-DirecTivos..
> 
> More bang for the $$ with the update to the SD-DTivos


You know I like to speculate...

If you were TiVo, and you wanted to make sure you kept your foot in the door with D*, and you were writing all this new code for your S3 and your HD Tivo, wouldn't you make sure it would port to a D* box without too much hassle?

I mean - most of the hardcore R&D is done by now, isn't it?


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## anubys

This is good news...to me, it means the door is not completely shut on having a mpeg4 HD-Tivo...

it's still 99.9% shut...but there's still hope!


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## Mike D-CO5

Since John Malone controls LIberty cable and is now buying Directv , he just might let Tivo come back into the fold . Doesn't Liberty cable already have a deal with Tivo for their cable boxes? He might just think it is easier to use tivo then fix all the bugs in the news corp receivers.


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## Earl Bonovich

jaywdetroit said:


> You know I like to speculate...
> 
> If you were TiVo, and you wanted to make sure you kept your foot in the door with D*, and you were writing all this new code for your S3 and your HD Tivo, wouldn't you make sure it would port to a D* box without too much hassle?
> 
> I mean - most of the hardcore R&D is done by now, isn't it?


But not having detailed specifications on how to do that...
You are flying blind with the chipsets...

You can do it all in theory... but to actually implement it...
And have it actually work...

Sure they could realy disconnected the TiVo Series 3 software from the hardware level... made a distinct hardware abstract layer...
But did they do it?

Even if the hardcore R&D is done... DirecTV will still dictate the criteria and the feature set... and what if that R&D that was done... doesn't jive with any of the criteria...

Now that I think about it a tad more....
Then the COX version shoudl be right around the corner then... as all the heavily R&D would be done by now, to allow the T3 to work on any system.


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## Earl Bonovich

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Since John Malone controls LIberty cable and is now buying Directv , he just might let Tivo come back into the fold . Doesn't Liberty cable already have a deal with Tivo for their cable boxes? He might just think it is easier to use tivo then fix all the bugs in the news corp receivers.


Liberty Cable?

I thought Malone got rid of his shares of his COMCAST Cable-Co's (for the most part).

And he isn't "buying" DirecTV... he is swapping stock, to become the largest single share holder (35ish%)...

R15 is a "news corp" system...
HR20 is a DirecTV system...


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## sgnhaf

the fact that r15 and hr20 are 2 unique systems from same company, shows they need to have 1 system control making a system


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## Earl Bonovich

sgnhaf said:


> the fact that r15 and hr20 are 2 unique systems from same company, shows they need to have 1 system control making a system


Huh?


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## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> R15 is a "news corp" system...
> HR20 is a DirecTV system...


And neither work as well as TiVo.

It would be better to spend the $$$ to have a TiVo DirecTV HD box than to continue throwing good money after bad on the R15 and HR20.

According to the TiVo May 30th press release, there are 2,615,000 D* TiVo subscriptions out of a total 4,342,000 TiVo subscriptions. TiVo's "churn" rate was reported as 1.1%.

I left Comcast for DirecTV solely for DirecTV dual tuner TiVos. If Comcast's customer service wouldn't have been as rude and clueless, I'd still be a Comcast customer with two Series Two TiVos.

I spoke to Comcast's HQ today (Comcast's Pittsburgh customer service center is an oxymoron). My understanding is they will slowly roll out their TiVo because of the "Wii factor" - a huge demand and short supply. I strongly suspect they will woo TiVo customers on other platforms with the "We have TiVo HD with True Video On Demand. What do you have to settle for now to get HD?"

If D* cuts a deal for a TiVo HD box, you know D* will be crushed with HR20 returns. For those who have only known the R15 or HR20, they may be quite happy. But for those who have been Blessed by TiVo, the R15 and HR20 are buggy if adequate substitutes for the "Real Deal DVR".

I've yet to meet one person who has used TiVo and either the R15 or HR20 and doesn't prefer the TiVo. I do know my neighbor gave up D* because her D* TiVo died and after 5 months struggling with the R15 she just couldn't take the drama. Her VIP622 is better than my HR20 and she doesn't let me forget it.


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## Earl Bonovich

Well... that is your opinion that they don't work as well as TiVo...

So spend the $$$ on a platform, that is still pretty much controlled by that external vendor... that is throwing good money? instead of bad?

So.... TiVo has a low churn rate, what is the point?
Out of the bullk of the subscriptions for TiVo on DirecTV, they are for SD equipment..

What over whelming feature on the R15, would make you give up the SD for it? There isn't one... there is no reason to this day to give up the SD DTiVo for an R15... 

As for why you came on to DirecTV... that is your choice as a consumer.

And Comcast just willing explained to you their rollout strategy for a Box yet to reach the hands of anyone outside of a BETA program? The "Wii" factor. If I understand correctly... isn't the COMCAST version supposed to download to existing hardware? So what is the Wii factor? Can't the system download software or is there some limitation to that?

As for "true" Video On Demand... define that... what is "true" Video on Demand... 

Really... crushed with returns? What overwhelming feature would be on that TiVo unit, that all the people with a functional unit... will caused them to return it? As pointed out... people HATE change.


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## inkahauts

Chuck584 said:


> I've yet to meet one person who has used TiVo and either the R15 or HR20 and doesn't prefer the TiVo. I do know my neighbor gave up D* because her D* TiVo died and after 5 months struggling with the R15 she just couldn't take the drama. Her VIP622 is better than my HR20 and she doesn't let me forget it.


I like the HR20 Better.

The only thing Tivo does for me that the HR20 doesn't is whislist. Other than that my HR20's are far better in speed and are being launched with more new abilites all the time (than Tivo has), and from what I'm seeing, will always have more features too. The fact that Tivo has finally decided after 5 years to role out a software update that has been on stand alone units for years is, in my opinion, a sign of panic on there part of loosing all their customers to HR20's in short order, because when VOD and MPEG4 HD comes out, they aren't going to be able to access it. They will be hurting on the SD and the HD units real fast, as people start swaping them for more featured packed units.

And IMHO the only way I see tivo coming out with a new Directv box is if they charge an additional fee for its usage over Directv's, and it would have to have at least 3 major advantages, or people wouldn't go for it.

I just wish ReplayTV would partner with directv. Now that would be the box to have. Far superior to anything else out there today. They've pioneered all the best features and have the easiest GUI. If only years ago they had someone in charge of marketing and sales that new how to take over the market.


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## mnbulldog

Chuck584 said:


> And neither work as well as TiVo.


Definitely not a fact. I have two DTivos in my house and one HR20 and prefer the HR20 in every aspect except DLB. Of course, I preferred UTV over Tivo. I don't get the love of Tivo compared to other boxes that have so many more features.

I don't think this shows anything about their own boxes but rather a need for Tivo to stay alive.


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## Chuck584

inkahauts said:


> I like the HR20 Better.
> 
> The only thing Tivo does for me that the HR20 doesn't is whislist. Other than that my HR20's are far better in speed and are being launched with more new abilites all the time (than Tivo has), and from what I'm seeing, will always have more features too. The fact that Tivo has finally decided after 5 years to role out a software update that has been on stand alone units for years is, in my opinion, a sign of panic on there part of loosing all their customers to HR20's in short order, because when VOD and MPEG4 HD comes out, they aren't going to be able to access it. They will be hurting on the SD and the HD units real fast, as people start swaping them for more featured packed units.
> 
> And IMHO the only way I see tivo coming out with a new Directv box is if they charge an additional fee for its usage over Directv's, and it would have to have at least 3 major advantages, or people wouldn't go for it.
> 
> I just wish ReplayTV would partner with directv. Now that would be the box to have. Far superior to anything else out there today. They've pioneered all the best features and have the easiest GUI. If only years ago they had someone in charge of marketing and sales that new how to take over the market.


I tried a Panasonic Showstopper way back when. 

Replay had a terrific product and would have given TiVo a real run for their money.

At my age, I should know better than to make sweeping generalizations. I knew there would be people who prefer the HR20, I just haven't met any personally.

My HR20 just annoyed me again. I had it set to record ABC's show Just for Laughs last night. Two episodes back to back beginning at 8.

It didn't record the 8PM show but it did record the 8:30 PM show. It cancelled the 8PM show with (13) in parenthesis.

I looked here for similar problems. Found a thread, then checked further in the History to find more shows not recorded.

No big deal, they're all on my DSR704.


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## dthreet

I am drunk or dreaming? I would have bet money that this would never happen. All i can say is wow... Samsung Tivos on sale at Circuit City and Directv updating the usb's on the directv tivo's.


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## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> What overwhelming feature would be on that TiVo unit, that all the people with a functional unit... will caused them to return it? As pointed out... people HATE change.


TiVos do what I ask and what I expect. 

And you're right, people hate change.

I did not want to leave Comcast. But I did for DirecTV dual tuner TiVo (and Comcast CSR rudeness).



Earl Bonovich said:


> And Comcast just willing explained to you their rollout strategy for a Box yet to reach the hands of anyone outside of a BETA program? The "Wii" factor. If I understand correctly... isn't the COMCAST version supposed to download to existing hardware? So what is the Wii factor? Can't the system download software or is there some limitation to that?


I called to get a straight answer to the simple question: "Will I have to use two cable cards (at $5.99 a month each) to get dual tuner operation on the new TiVo HD box?"

It was an interesting experience as I was forwarded to several different people in different departments.

They were interested in why I was considering coming back to Comcast (Dual Tuner HD TiVo).

They were interested in why I left:

In November of 2003 Comcast made the decision to move some channels to digital to free up space. Research told them subscribers to the SciFi Channel would be most likely to add the digital service to keep the channel and most likely to embrace digital.

I called Comcast immediately on seeing the bottom screen crawler. I asked the simple quesion: "What is the least expensive package which will allow me access to SciFi channel on two Series 2 TiVos?"

The CSR began by offering the most expensive / all inclusive tier at $159 a month (I was then paying $45 a month with two TiVos and 4 VCRs hooked up to three TVs).

Again I asked: "What is the least expensive package which will allow me access to SciFi channel on two Series 2 TiVos?"

She offered a package costing $99 with several bundled premium services.

I asked for her supervisor. She hung up on me.

I had never once missed a payment or even been late with a payment in 30 years as a cable customer. Their records show I had requested only two service calls in that time frame.

I spent close to two hours talking and listening. What most impressed me was their willingness to listen and explore indepth my experience with the original cable company, TCI, and then Comcast.

It's quickly becoming a buyer's market. I called our Borough Council President and they expect to wrap up negotiations with Verizon by month's end.

I will take my time this time and look at Dish, Comcast, and Verizon FIOS and compare what is offered to my current experience with D*. Whomever best meets my needs wins.

One thing they suggested I ask D* vis a vis the 100 HD channels promised - will they be discrete 24 hour a day / 7 day a week channels or ????


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## Chuck584

mnbulldog said:


> Definitely not a fact. I have two DTivos in my house and one HR20 and prefer the HR20 in every aspect except DLB. Of course, I preferred UTV over Tivo. I don't get the love of Tivo compared to other boxes that have so many more features.
> 
> I don't think this shows anything about their own boxes but rather a need for Tivo to stay alive.


I know better than to make sweeping generalizations. Or I should. 

TiVo could not roll out the software without an agreement with DirecTV.

For me, TiVo means no drama. No missed shows. No bugs.

My HR20 decided not to record one of two back to back episodes of ABC's show Just for Laughs. The History tab says: "This episode was partially recorded because it became unavailable (13)".

It wasn't recorded at all so far as I can see.

My Philips DSR704 recorded it without issue.


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## jal

I would be thrilled if Directv came out with an MPEG IV Directivo. I have never really liked the HR20, and the reason I first came to Directv was TIVO. I still have my TIVOs, and enjoy them much more than the R15 (which I returned) and the HR20 (which I had nothing but lock-ups on for the first 9 months of having it).

IF Directv had an MPEG IV TIVO, I would be much more likely to stay after my commitment expires.


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## tiger2005

jal said:


> I would be thrilled if Directv came out with an MPEG IV Directivo. I have never really liked the HR20, and the reason I first came to Directv was TIVO. I still have my TIVOs, and enjoy them much more than the R15 (which I returned) and the HR20 (which I had nothing but lock-ups on for the first 9 months of having it).
> 
> IF Directv had an MPEG IV TIVO, I would be much more likely to stay after my commitment expires.


Agreed. I do believe that the HR20 has a few more features than the HD TiVo's, BUT the features that TiVo has and are missing on the HR20 (DLB, Wishlist, etc.) are far more important to me than the added features on the HR20.


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## jal

Well put, but don't forget about suggestions as well. I like comming home after a hard day's work, and seeing what has been selected for me. It's fun.


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## CoachGibbs

tiger2005 said:


> Agreed. I do believe that the HR20 has a few more features than the HD TiVo's, BUT the features that TiVo has and are missing on the HR20 (DLB, Wishlist, etc.) are far more important to me than the added features on the HR20.


Agreed. I'd dump the HR20 in a minute for a MPEG4 HDTivo.


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## CobraGuy

Tivo is much more seamless than the HR20. It works as advertised with very few issues...if any. 

The HR20 offers features that my Tivo doesn't. I wouldn't want to lose my networking capability that my Tivo doesn't offer.

Tivo has features the HR20 doesn't. DLB being the biggest. I still don't know why D* ignores one of the most sought after changes asked for.

If Tivo comes out with a HD box for D*, I will have one. I probably won't give up my HR20 (unless the Tivo box includes the features of the HR20 I like). 

If D* comes out with a box that has DLB and the other features that Tivo has that I like, then I won't worry about a Tivo box. But after having Tivo for years, and the HR20 for months now, I see the defiencies on both sides...but the Tivo still wins. Of course, the reason I left the Tivo was for HD and 5.1, so unless Tivo can match that, I'm staying where I'm at regardless of the HR20 problems and lack of DLB.


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## BruceS

As far as implementing the features mentioned in post #1, everything except the deleted folder is already available with any hacked D*.

I only have experience with the HR10-250, but I can do everything else mentioned already.

As far as the question about whether you will need to have a network connection for this to work, Tivo already has this working over either the phone or network connection for the S3 and AFIK all of the other S2 boxes except for the D* ones.

If using just the phone connection, you would need to register your D* box on tivo.com and do the online scheduling there. You currently can not register your D* Tivo on that box, but they should be able to change that with no problems.

Once the web connection is activated, you should be able to do it with TivoWebPlus.

I just wish that while they are doing this, they implement the ability to use the network connection instead of the phone to make the daily call to D*.


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## Earl Bonovich

dthreet said:


> I am drunk or dreaming? I would have bet money that this would never happen. All i can say is wow... Samsung Tivos on sale at Circuit City and Directv updating the usb's on the directv tivo's.


There is no definitive statement that USB's will be updated...
All that was stated is that remote scheduling will be added, but not how it will be done.

As for the Samsung TiVos at Circuit City ... that is the same as it was this time yesterday (Before the announcement)


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## Stuart Sweet

One way or another you have to give it to DIRECTV for supporting these older receivers instead of just abandoning them.


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## wingrider01

Chuck584 said:


> I know better than to make sweeping generalizations. Or I should.
> 
> TiVo could not roll out the software without an agreement with DirecTV.
> 
> For me, TiVo means no drama. No missed shows. No bugs.
> 
> My HR20 decided not to record one of two back to back episodes of ABC's show Just for Laughs. The History tab says: "This episode was partially recorded because it became unavailable (13)".
> 
> It wasn't recorded at all so far as I can see.
> 
> My Philips DSR704 recorded it without issue.


Funny, I have the exact same issues with the HR10 that you describe on your HR20 and additionals issus such as random restarts.

My commitment is up in 2 months, unless I work a good deal on a new HR20 I am going to Dish, I own the HR10, at that time it will be introduced to a couple of loads of double-aught buck shot and resigned to the trash heap.


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## michaelancaster

Any chance of getting the "Recently Deleted Folder" feature included in a HR20 update anytime in the near future or at all?


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## bidger

mnbulldog said:


> Definitely not a fact. I have two DTivos in my house and one HR20 and prefer the HR20 in every aspect except DLB. Of course, I preferred UTV over Tivo. I don't get the love of Tivo compared to other boxes that have so many more features.
> 
> *I don't think this shows anything about their own boxes but rather a need for Tivo to stay alive.*


Bingo! Go price an HR10 on eBay right now and contrast it to the price a year ago. I'm holding onto mine for SD and local ATSC, but at some future point when all the sats have been deployed and are operational, I _may_ swap it out too. Fact is TiVo's seeing their DIREC*TV* sub revenue decrease so it's taking a stab at making their DIREC*TV* boxes more attractive. And though the features aren't available until next year, they want the announcement made now hoping people won't ditch their HR10s in the meantime.

I think TiVo sees the cable cos they have agreements with dragging their feet at actually releasing their integrated boxes and they start to think, "You know, we had it pretty good with DIREC*TV*". I don't care what those in other markets see, all I know is there are three rows of standalone TiVos in boxes along with three returns at the local Best Buy. I don't call that _flying off the shelf_.

I've detached from the _cult of TiVo_ because, as you say, I've auditioned other platforms and it didn't have me screaming and running back to TiVo. It's a fine platform, but I found it's not a necessity. I think the fact that they stand on their lonesome now as far as DVR manufacturers go says a lot about the future of that market.


----------



## Mike D-CO5

Earl Bonovich said:


> Liberty Cable?
> 
> I thought Malone got rid of his shares of his COMCAST Cable-Co's (for the most part).
> 
> And he isn't "buying" DirecTV... he is swapping stock, to become the largest single share holder (35ish%)...
> 
> R15 is a "news corp" system...
> HR20 is a DirecTV system...


 Okay who will own DIrectv when the swap is over then? I know that I have read that Charlie Ergen and John Malone are much friendlier to each other than Rupert and Charlie. I also remember one of the sites saying that John was friendly to Tivo also since he had them with his cable service.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

michaelancaster said:


> Any chance of getting the "Recently Deleted Folder" feature included in a HR20 update anytime in the near future or at all?


Most things are possible.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Mike D-CO5 said:


> Okay who will own DIrectv when the swap is over then? I know that I have read that Charlie Ergen and John Malone are much friendlier to each other than Rupert and Charlie. I also remember one of the sites saying that John was friendly to Tivo also since he had them with his cable service.


Liberty will be the largest single share holder: 35% (I believe that is the number).... so if they had to have a "defined" owner.... Liberty would be.

Which Cable Service does Malone still own?
TiVo has only been on DirecTV (as an integrated unit)... all other usages have been in StandAlone mode. (That is of course until the CTiVo is release... COMCASTs)


----------



## Lee L

Well, this makes things interesting. I was pretty much resigned to just ditching my HR10s and going only to HR20s, but if this happens on the HD DirecTiVo, I might try to still keep them running for OTA only. 

I just do not want to miss shows and posts in this thread just are not making me feel good about the HR20. Since Cable runs shows more than once, missing is not a big deal but on OTA, I have to go to Bittorrent if I miss a show and I just keep thinking that is going away one day.


----------



## jaywdetroit

tiger2005 said:


> Agreed. I do believe that the HR20 has a few more features than the HD TiVo's, BUT the features that TiVo has and are missing on the HR20 (DLB, Wishlist, etc.) are far more important to me than the added features on the HR20.


Good point, well put. I'm still a loyal convert to the HR20, when comparing it to the SD D* Tivo, but if D* authorized a new improved HD Tivo, with the new features, I would consider switching back.


----------



## Fygg

bidger said:


> Fact is TiVo's seeing their DIREC*TV* sub revenue decrease so it's taking a stab at making their DIREC*TV* boxes more attractive. And though the features aren't available until next year, they want the announcement made now hoping people won't ditch their HR10s in the meantime.


_Tivo_ is "taking a stab"???

Ok... help me get this straight.

You propose that in the past it was _tivo's_ decision not to add newer tivo features to the series 2 directv tivo platform?

And now tivo has changed their mind and has decided to add new features to the series 2 directv tivo platform?

*Directv has been willing to add these features all the while and somehow tivo has been refusing to do so? untill now?*

Tivo has made this decision in an effort to keep people from "ditching" their HR10's?

_Directv has no control on what features show up on the directv tivo platform?_ It's all *tivo's decision?*



Earl, could you shine a little light on this for us?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Fygg said:


> Earl, could you shine a little light on this for us?


Sorry... don't have the flashlight for those particular comments....

IMHO though: I am sure it was a two way street... Little TiVo, Little DirecTV...
But ultimately... it would be DirecTV that would be in control of what is on THEIR systems....

Since we don't have direct access to all the contracts, and none of us know what it took to get these features into a DirecTivo compatible version, with any other modifications as well.


----------



## Fygg

Earl Bonovich said:


> Since we don't have direct access to all the contracts, and none of us know what it took to get these features into a DirecTivo compatible version, with any other modifications as well.


Oh well. I figured if anyone would know or could find out, it would be you.

bidger seems convinced that it's all up to tivo. It seems strange that directv would have so little control over a product on their own system, especially at that level.

Then again, maybe bidger has better directv contacts than all of us.


----------



## bidger

Fygg said:


> Then again, maybe bidger has better directv contacts than all of us.


Sure don't. I'm just going by the fact that in about a month and a half a good number of MPEG 4 HD channels are coming online and the HR10 won't get any of them. I come across lots of threads/post on the 'net where folks are unloading their HR10s and I see this announcement, especially in terms of the timing, as an attempt to stave off some of the migration.


----------



## code4code5

I don't mean to sound like a whiner, but I have a simple solution... if you hate the HR20 that badly, find an HR10-250. I think that any concessions that are made by forfeiting the Tivo interface is more than made up by the multitude of Mpeg4 channels that we will see. Frankly, the only thing that I miss at all is DLB. I personally don't care for the Tivo interface mainly because I miss the PIL and PIG.

It's really not that big of a deal. It's not a perfect world. I've said my peace.

Sorry for being a buzz kill.


----------



## bonscott87

Chuck584 said:


> One thing they suggested I ask D* vis a vis the 100 HD channels promised - will they be discrete 24 hour a day / 7 day a week channels or ????




I've seen this before and I don't understand it. If there is an HD channel, DirecTV will carry it. And these will be the same HD channels that Comcast will carry, along with every other provider (assuming they want to complete).

To this day even ESPN isn't 100% HD 24 hours a day so I don't see what that matters.
SciFi channel. Probably what, half a dozen first run shows that matter that anybody actually watches? If those alone are in HD that all anyone cares about at this time.
Heck, NBC, Fox and all them aren't 100% HD 24x7 either.

Basically the statement above is just plain stupid on their part and stupid for anyone to actually take seriously.


----------



## southtexan

mnbulldog said:


> Definitely not a fact. I have two DTivos in my house and one HR20 and prefer the HR20 in every aspect except DLB. Of course, I preferred UTV over Tivo. I don't get the love of Tivo compared to other boxes that have so many more features.
> 
> I don't think this shows anything about their own boxes but rather a need for Tivo to stay alive.


I agree, I'm glad I won't have to go out and replace my SD DTivos any time soon as Tivo continues to lose money.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/companyreport?Symbol=tivo

And compared to the Motorola dvr my Dad has on Cox, the HR20 and DTivo is so much nicer. This is all good news - I hope.


----------



## Araxen

If Tivo's for Directv HD came out I would replace my HR20 in a blink.


----------



## Thaedron

CobraGuy said:


> ...
> If D* comes out with a box that has DLB and the other features that Tivo has that I like, then I won't worry about a Tivo box. But after having Tivo for years, and the HR20 for months now, I see the defiencies on both sides...but the Tivo still wins. Of course, the reason I left the Tivo was for HD and 5.1, so unless Tivo can match that, I'm staying where I'm at regardless of the HR20 problems and lack of DLB.


Very well stated. I am of the same opinion.


----------



## MikeW

bidger said:


> Sure don't. I'm just going by the fact that in about a month and a half a good number of MPEG 4 HD channels are coming online and the HR10 won't get any of them. I come across lots of threads/post on the 'net where folks are unloading their HR10s and I see this announcement, especially in terms of the timing, as an attempt to stave off some of the migration.


But it is being stated the HR10s won't get the software "upgrade". It has nothing to do with trying to extend the life of the HR10s.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

MikeW said:


> But it is being stated the HR10s won't get the software "upgrade". It has nothing to do with trying to extend the life of the HR10s.


It hasn't been stated either way, if the HR10-250's are going to get it or not.

But regardless if it does... no software update, can change the fact that it won't be able to access the new (and eventually ALL), SAT based HD programming.


----------



## Fygg

bidger said:


> Sure don't. I'm just going by the fact that in about a month and a half a good number of MPEG 4 HD channels are coming online and the HR10 won't get any of them. I come across lots of threads/post on the 'net where folks are unloading their HR10s and I see this announcement, especially in terms of the timing, as an attempt to stave off some of the migration.


It wasn't the "why" I was curious about, but your assumption that Directv somehow has no control over what features show up on the directv tivo platform and that it's all tivo's decision.

You stated it in your post so "matter of factly", as if it were simply a given.

It was so opposed to everything I have ever heard about how directv controls their client products. So much so that I had to crawl out from under my rock and post, just to make sure.


----------



## jbigbryw-1

Lee L said:


> Well, this makes things interesting. I was pretty much resigned to just ditching my HR10s and going only to HR20s, but if this happens on the HD DirecTiVo, I might try to still keep them running for OTA only.
> 
> I just do not want to miss shows and posts in this thread just are not making me feel good about the HR20. Since Cable runs shows more than once, missing is not a big deal but on OTA, I have to go to Bittorrent if I miss a show and I just keep thinking that is going away one day.


I have had 2 SD DTV Tivos and the HR10-250 and have now switched to the HR20 I have the -100 model but I have had it for over a month without any problems at all. Haven't missed anything, no reboots, etc.

So, hopefully that makes you feel better.

In fact, I had serious HDMI compatibility issues between the HR10 (went through 3 of them and it never go fixed) and my Panasonic 50" plasma. Video/Audio drop outs all the time.


----------



## bidger

Fygg said:


> It wasn't the "why" I was curious about, but your assumption that Directv somehow has no control over what features show up on the directv tivo platform and that it's all tivo's decision.
> 
> You stated it in your post so "matter of factly", as if it were simply a given.
> 
> It was so opposed to everything I have ever heard about how directv controls their client products. So much so that I had to crawl out from under my rock and post, just to make sure.


You're reading a lot into my post if you think I believe DIREC*TV* doesn't have final say over what features are offered on their receivers. However, the proposal had to start somewhere and I believe that TiVo was the party who would have initially suggested these features would be of benefit and DIREC*TV* agreed to the terms.


----------



## Fygg

bidger said:


> You're reading a lot into my post if you think I believe DIREC*TV* doesn't have final say over what features are offered on their receivers. However, the proposal had to start somewhere and I believe that TiVo was the party who would have initially suggested these features would be of benefit and DIREC*TV* agreed to the terms.


Oh, no doubt about who has final say, but according to tivo's old ceo in an conference call, the features were offered to directv just after they were released on the sa series 2 platform.

However they get there, it'll be nice to have 'em on the dtivos.


----------



## Racer88

Earl Bonovich said:


> No definitive in the press-release...
> But isolating it just to the HR10-250 would be pointless (IMHO), since that particular system is going to depreciate in value signficantly in September (aka no ability to access the new HD networks, and the SAT based ones that it can are being converted).
> 
> So I would have to put a educated guess on it being primarily the SD versions.


You make it sound like the HR10 only has value as a HD recorder and nothing else.

Let's see....R10 with 80 GB drive...HR10 with 250 GB drive...seems to me it makes it more valuable to someone that does a lot of SD recording and/or wants to keep larger archives of recordings without having to learn how to upgrade hard drives or pay outrageous prices for someone to do it for them.


----------



## sgnhaf

yikes .. that was not biased ..............................



Earl Bonovich said:


> "Well... that is your opinion that they don't work as well as TiVo...
> 
> So spend the $$$ on a platform, that is still pretty much controlled by that external vendor... that is throwing good money? instead of bad?
> 
> So.... TiVo has a low churn rate, what is the point?
> Out of the bullk of the subscriptions for TiVo on DirecTV, they are for SD equipment..
> 
> What over whelming feature on the R15, would make you give up the SD for it? There isn't one... there is no reason to this day to give up the SD DTiVo for an R15...
> 
> As for why you came on to DirecTV... that is your choice as a consumer.
> 
> And Comcast just willing explained to you their rollout strategy for a Box yet to reach the hands of anyone outside of a BETA program? The "Wii" factor. If I understand correctly... isn't the COMCAST version supposed to download to existing hardware? So what is the Wii factor? Can't the system download software or is there some limitation to that?
> 
> As for "true" Video On Demand... define that... what is "true" Video on Demand...
> 
> Really... crushed with returns? What overwhelming feature would be on that TiVo unit, that all the people with a functional unit... will caused them to return it? As pointed out... people HATE change."


----------



## richardmb

I wonder if D*is doing this because Tivo is going to be downloading there software to comcast DVR units .


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Racer88 said:


> You make it sound like the HR10 only has value as a HD recorder and nothing else.
> 
> Let's see....R10 with 80 GB drive...HR10 with 250 GB drive...seems to me it makes it more valuable to someone that does a lot of SD recording and/or wants to keep larger archives of recordings without having to learn how to upgrade hard drives or pay outrageous prices for someone to do it for them.


You are correct... it certainly does have a very good value as an SD recorder.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

sgnhaf said:


> yikes .. that was not biased ..............................


Has nothing to do with biased...

Is the opinion of the person posting, not their own opinion?

And wouldn't spending money on something done by an external vendor, instead of one that you control... couldn't that be costruded as "throwing money" in one direction?

TiVo's Churn rate doesn't have a baring on this... so why was it brought up?
As stated, there is no glaring feature on the R15, that would give a person a reason to deactivate an SD DTiVo

Person stated why they came to to DirecTV from Comcast, and again... that is action as a consumer...

And I was questioning the notion, that a COMCAST CSR would just discuss the rollout strategy for a highly anticipated product like that...

The OP, stated "true" Video On Demand... I asked for a definition of what "true" Video On Demand is...

And I challenged his statement that they would be CRUSHED by returns...

So if that is biased... ah well.. then everyone must be biased... as everyone has an opinion


----------



## Draconis

I am not surprised that this happened. After Liberty Media took over DIRECTV there is no longer any reason to continue with the NDS software. 

Guess I need to dust off the old R10 and reactivate it.


----------



## mitchelljd

great news, hope my dtivo is compatible. it's the sony model.

also, i really hope this means there is hope for bringing tivo back. in full HD!


----------



## naijai

mitchelljd said:


> great news, hope my dtivo is compatible. it's the sony model.
> 
> also, i really hope this means there is hope for bringing tivo back. in full HD!


The SAT- T60 is built on the series 1 platform


----------



## litzdog911

mitchelljd said:


> great news, hope my dtivo is compatible. it's the sony model.
> 
> ...


Afraid not. The Sony SAT-T60 is not a Series 2 platform.


----------



## bonscott87

Ratara said:


> I am not surprised that this happened. After Liberty Media took over DIRECTV there is no longer any reason to continue with the NDS software.
> 
> Guess I need to dust off the old R10 and reactivate it.


Sorry but both your statements aren't quite right. 

First, Liberty has *not* taken over DirecTV yet. Still some months away on that.

Second, DirecTV doesn't use NDS except on the R15. The HR20 does *not* use NDS so DirecTV already got rid of NDS on their newer receivers.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Interesting. Haven't had time to read the entire thread, but does this mean that D* *might* go back, or at least offer, a Tivo option again in the future? Keep the HR20 as the basic HD-DVR, and maybe offer an HR21 with Tivo for those who wouldn't mind paying a little extra for Tivo? With Liberty taking over, who knows.

Thanks


----------



## timf

Earl Bonovich said:


> You are correct... it certainly does have a very good value as an SD recorder.


Indeed it does. When I got my HR20 I moved the old HR10-250 that was on that TV to my bedroom to replace the old SAT-T60 that was there before (on an older SDTV), and the extra space is a great improvement.


----------



## Nachosgrande

So can someone outline the new features? Please?


----------



## BubbaDude

This article says the HR10 is covered by the upgrade, and speculates about a new HD-TiVo that understands MP4: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070801-updates-show-more-signs-of-new-love-between-tivo-directv.html


----------



## captain_video

Any speculation regarding a new Tivo model for DirecTV is nothing more than that - just speculation. I'd be surprised if it ever comes about simply because DTV dumped a lot of R&D money into the HR20 and came up with a product that hasn't totally pissed a lot of people off like the ill-fated R15. I don't own an HR20 but if I still had DTV I'd probably give it a shot. I jumped ship and went with Verizon back in February and picked up an S3 Tivo.

I love my Tivos but I have no aversion to switching brands if the DVR does what I want it to do. I actually prefered the ReplayTV and UTV models over Tivo, as someone else has already indicated. Unfortunately, ReplayTV didn't have a DirecTV model and UTV is no longer supported (that and the fact that the monthly charge for a UTV is double that of a DTivo). I never understood why Microsoft went to the trouble of releasing the UTV DVRs and then subsequently decided to stop supporting them in short order. Just another reason to hate Microsoft. 

I use my S3 for recording non-OTA channels and I built a 5-tuner HTPC for all my OTA HD local channel needs. The BeyondTV UI is very user-friendly but there are a few minor quirks, although nothing I can't live with.

As for the original topic, the features available in the upcoming OS update are already available to anyone with a hacked S2 DTivo. We can already undelete shows using TivoWebPlus and several other utilities (I've been able to do this for at least 4 or 5 years now). The recently Deleted folder on my S3 is a major annoyance to me and I wish it would go away.

We can also schedule programs remotely using the gotomydvr website after installing the software on our DTivos (the Zipper does this as an option). I don't really care too much for the show clipping function since I'm not too crazy about a feature that actually amputates part of my recordings. I do appreciate the fact that it lets me know when I pad other recordings that the padding will infringe upon other season passes, although this usually makes itself known when the season pass is initially set up but it won't flag conflicts later on. Any shows that will be clipped are flagged with an asterisk in the To Do list and alerts me that I need to remove the padding from the higher priority season pass. I guess I'll have to get myself one of the new Tivo HD models so I can avoid any future conflicts and keep the padding in my season passes so I don't miss anything.


----------



## Draconis

bonscott87 said:


> Sorry but both your statements aren't quite right.
> 
> First, Liberty has *not* taken over DirecTV yet. Still some months away on that.
> 
> Second, DirecTV doesn't use NDS except on the R15. The HR20 does *not* use NDS so DirecTV already got rid of NDS on their newer receivers.


Actually, NDS also wrote the *new* software for the D10's, D11's, D12, & H20's. (When the D10's originally released they had the software from their respective manufacturers and the NDS image was not ready for the H20 so LG backwards-engineered the software package.)

They are also the culprits behind the H21, and R16.

Remember at the time both DIRECTV and NDS were owned by NewsCorp, to it made sense to Murdock that NDS write the software images for the receivers. With Liberty Media taking over that relationship is no longer there.

You are correct on the HR20, DIRECTV did that software version internally.

On a side note, I have 2 of the first R15-500's that shipped back in early 2006. I have had no problems with them. I really do not see why people hate them so much. I also have a R10, which I deactivated shortly after getting the 2nd R15. The only thing I can truly give the R10 is that its menu's are easieyer to read. I also thought that the phone line requirement for software updates was horrid. I much prefer the R15's ability to download software updates from the satellites.

Again, it all boils down to personal preferance.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Ok so lets say D* goes back or offers a Tivo option again, could the HR20 handle a Tivo software download, or would they have to build a new box?

Thanks

Rekindling the love: TiVo, DirecTV announce big update, more collaboration


----------



## jal

Directv: Bring back TIVO!


----------



## carl6

Chuck584 said:


> I've yet to meet one person who has used TiVo and either the R15 or HR20 and doesn't prefer the TiVo.


Me. I prefer both the R15 and the HR20 to the Tivo, and I have used all 3. My R10 sits deactivated in my closet.

Carl


----------



## Gbsnplr

This is probably not the place to ask this question but I must anyway? My wife loves here H10-250. If I don't change that unit out will she still be able to get the programing we currently have? Or will some of this programing be moved to the new sats? Lastly, I have looked but is there a post somewhere what the new HD channels we be that we will be getting next month?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## Chuck584

theratpatrol said:


> Ok so lets say D* goes back or offers a Tivo option again, could the HR20 handle a Tivo software download, or would they have to build a new box?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rekindling the love: TiVo, DirecTV announce big update, more collaboration


From a programmer's standpoint, there is no reason I can see why TiVo wouldn't work on the HR20.

They used different chips in the new TiVo HD, which affirms they have competent programmers.

For me, TiVo on the HR20 would be "stress relief".


----------



## Drew2k

Gbsnplr said:


> This is probably not the place to ask this question but I must anyway? My wife loves here H10-250. If I don't change that unit out will she still be able to get the programing we currently have? Or will some of this programing be moved to the new sats? Lastly, I have looked but is there a post somewhere what the new HD channels we be that we will be getting next month?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


I think you meant the H*R*10-250? The HR10 will *not* be able to receiver the new HD channels that are rolling out in September. Those channels will be MPEG4 channels broadcast from the new Ka satellites, so you would need the HR20 DVR Plus in order to receive and record the new channels.

In addition, it is expected that the MPEG2 HD channels that the HR10 currently receive will be moved to MPEG4, but we don't know the exact timeframe. This means the HR10 will eventually only be able to receive HD channels via the OTA antenna.


----------



## anubys

Gbsnplr said:


> This is probably not the place to ask this question but I must anyway? My wife loves here H10-250. If I don't change that unit out will she still be able to get the programing we currently have? Or will some of this programing be moved to the new sats? Lastly, I have looked but is there a post somewhere what the new HD channels we be that we will be getting next month?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


D* has stated that they will support the current mpeg2 lineup until "all" their customers have switched/upgraded to mpeg4...I put "all" in quotes because the definition of that word is probably "critical mass"...

it's clear from D* and Tivo renewing their service contract and the recent announcement of a software upgrade that D* expects the migration to mpeg4 equipment to last at least another year or two...

as for threads...here are two...the first one is the comprehensive list, the second deal with HBO...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87235

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87235


----------



## Chuck584

Gbsnplr said:


> This is probably not the place to ask this question but I must anyway? My wife loves here H10-250. If I don't change that unit out will she still be able to get the programing we currently have? Or will some of this programing be moved to the new sats? Lastly, I have looked but is there a post somewhere what the new HD channels we be that we will be getting next month?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


The H10-250 will still work fine for SD channels. D* most likely won't make an en masse changeover of the HD channels but will do it over time.

I don't think anyone really knows how many channels or what they'll be. If they get the new sat online in September we'll be in for a treat discovering just how many we'll see.


----------



## Chuck584

wingrider01 said:


> Funny, I have the exact same issues with the HR10 that you describe on your HR20 and additionals issus such as random restarts.
> 
> My commitment is up in 2 months, unless I work a good deal on a new HR20 I am going to Dish, I own the HR10, at that time it will be introduced to a couple of loads of double-aught buck shot and resigned to the trash heap.


I've seen posts that D* is aware of the "failure to record" issue and is looking for the cause. Speculation is problems with the guide data or how their software parses the data.

I'm nearly certain D* will offer an HR20 for shipping if you make it real clear you'll leave for E*.

It costs these companies far more money to land new customers or lure back a former customer than to keep a current customer.

If you do make the decision to go with E*, wait until at least August 15th. That should see release of the VIP722 and activation of the USB port to support USB hard disks.


----------



## Chuck584

lamontcranston said:


> One way or another you have to give it to DIRECTV for supporting these older receivers instead of just abandoning them.


Being pragmatic, I don't think D* would want to alienate 2 million plus D* TiVo users.

From TiVo's point of view, updating current D* TiVo user software would be a "must" for any new relationship with D*. They'd want to staunch the flow of people giving up the D* TiVo boxes as a first step as they weren't making up the lost users with Comcast just yet.

I'd like to think D* management isn't really as clueless as the "Pointy Hair Boss" but they missed the boat going "in house" for DVR development.

They know how many people came to D* for TiVo over the years and they should be well aware of how many subscriber's they're losing over DVR issues...


----------



## Chuck584

michaelancaster said:


> Any chance of getting the "Recently Deleted Folder" feature included in a HR20 update anytime in the near future or at all?


They've already implemented the "delete all your stored content while you sleep feature"...


----------



## Chuck584

jaywdetroit said:


> Good point, well put. I'm still a loyal convert to the HR20, when comparing it to the SD D* Tivo, but if D* authorized a new improved HD Tivo, with the new features, I would consider switching back.


My HR20 decided to delete all it's content overnight (somewhere between 1 and 5.
Not a big concern as I run "parallel" Season Passes on it and my D* TiVos.

In all the years I've had TiVo, and that has been since the day of it's release, I have never, not once, lost content.

Once I'm sure the overnight deletion is just another HR20 undocumented feature and not a hardware issue, I'll be swapping in a terabyte drive. In anticiaption of the 1000 channels of HD coming before New Year.


----------



## Chuck584

bonscott87 said:


> I've seen this before and I don't understand it. If there is an HD channel, DirecTV will carry it. And these will be the same HD channels that Comcast will carry, along with every other provider (assuming they want to complete).
> 
> To this day even ESPN isn't 100% HD 24 hours a day so I don't see what that matters.
> SciFi channel. Probably what, half a dozen first run shows that matter that anybody actually watches? If those alone are in HD that all anyone cares about at this time.
> Heck, NBC, Fox and all them aren't 100% HD 24x7 either.
> 
> Basically the statement above is just plain stupid on their part and stupid for anyone to actually take seriously.


The point the competition was making, and I don't know if it is correct, is as follows:

Channel xxx carries one HD football game for 4 hours one day a week. D* counts that as an HD channel.

Through the magic "mapping" the same "frequency" is used a bit later to carry, say, a 3 hour HD soccer game. D* would count that as an HD channel, too.

The competition more or less stated that upon full and complete roll-out, without subscribing to more services, I'm likely only to pick up a handful or two (5 to 10) additional HD channels.

The competition said that by using the same creative counting, they could count each and every HD VOD program as a "channel".

So...

Where's the real beef here?

What is the new (proposed?) channel lineup?


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> It hasn't been stated either way, if the HR10-250's are going to get it or not.
> 
> But regardless if it does... no software update, can change the fact that it won't be able to access the new (and eventually ALL), SAT based HD programming.


[Putting on the Devil's Advocate Hat]

1) The HR10 doesn't have the appropriate hardware decoder.
2) It does have the ability to record any stream coming in
3) It's not impossible to do decoding in software.

So...

Decoding HD Lite in software is nowhere near as formidable a challenge as decoding true HD would be. 

Would it work? Don't rightly know but, in theory, it is possible.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> Well... that is your opinion that they don't work as well as TiVo...
> 
> So spend the $$$ on a platform, that is still pretty much controlled by that external vendor... that is throwing good money? instead of bad?


Cable companies and phone companies use boxes manufactured by outside vendors.

D* does NOT manufacture the hardware for the HR20 series, do they?

By your thinking shouldn't D* make the hardware, too? That's the bulk of the cost these, no?



Earl Bonovich said:


> So.... TiVo has a low churn rate, what is the point?


What's D*'s churn rate? 

Low churn generally means happy customer. Especially with it's with a "value added" company like TiVo.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Out of the bullk of the subscriptions for TiVo on DirecTV, they are for SD equipment..
> 
> What over whelming feature on the R15, would make you give up the SD for it? There isn't one... there is no reason to this day to give up the SD DTiVo for an R15...


Um, that's a point I've been making for how long?

What makes you think that success story wouldn't repeat on a new D* TiVo HD box?

Who has more experience designing DVR software? TiVo or D*?



Earl Bonovich said:


> As for why you came on to DirecTV... that is your choice as a consumer.


Exactly.

And it's getting more competitve with the entrance of Verizon FIOS.

There is a finite pool of potential subscribers and the company / companies who best understand the customer and serve the customer's needs will prosper and flourish.

Have you not said D* doesn't understand most of their subscribers?



Earl Bonovich said:


> And Comcast just willing explained to you their rollout strategy for a Box yet to reach the hands of anyone outside of a BETA program? The "Wii" factor. If I understand correctly... isn't the COMCAST version supposed to download to existing hardware? So what is the Wii factor? Can't the system download software or is there some limitation to that?


Comcast has how many subscribers?

I'm going to speculate here. I'm guessing Comcast and TiVo are rolling it out slowly and methodically in order to enhance their customer's experience. Going from the current OS to TiVo, for people who have never had TiVo, will be a change.

While TiVo is widely acknowledged in the press as being very intuitive, it is different. Difference can mean confusion. Roll it out in one market, log the CSR issues, develope the needed training and AI scripts, then go to next market.



Earl Bonovich said:


> As for "true" Video On Demand... define that... what is "true" Video on Demand...


How about:

VOD is Video on Demand, a service widely offered on cable and FIOS systems, currently unknown to subscriber's of D*



Earl Bonovich said:


> Really... crushed with returns? What overwhelming feature would be on that TiVo unit, that all the people with a functional unit... will caused them to return it? As pointed out... people HATE change.


I think the operative word in that paragraph is "functional". 

How many HR20 users would return these leased "make do" HD boxes for a TiVo HD box?

I'd be on the phone in a hot second for the D* HD TiVo and be well rid of the HR20. I'd be happier, you'd be happier not hearing me whine, and the world would be better for it. Blessed by TiVo you see?

The one thing my (leased) HR20 does that TiVo does not, is, for want of a better term, "overlap record" back-to-back programs on the same channel. I have really grown to like that feature and I think TiVo could easily implement it.

Oh, and the HR20 anticipated my installation of a larger HD overnight by deleting all the content on the "stock" drive. My TiVo's have always steadfastly held onto their content even when they knew a drive transplant was scheduled. Very thoughtless of my TiVos not to erase the content like the HR20 has.

I have lots of time to type because the HR20 is busy recording two HD streams I'm uninterested in to make sure it's an undocumented software feature and not a hardware problem.

I've read posts of the random reboots, stuck on reboot, lost content horror stories and thought they might be AC mains issues. My HR20 is on a rather new Cyberpower 825AVR hooked to my dual core iMac, I can safely say there was no AC mains issue in the last 24 hours. No bucks, no boosts, no interuptions.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> But not having detailed specifications on how to do that...
> You are flying blind with the chipsets...
> 
> You can do it all in theory... but to actually implement it...
> And have it actually work...
> 
> Sure they could realy disconnected the TiVo Series 3 software from the hardware level... made a distinct hardware abstract layer...
> But did they do it?
> 
> Even if the hardcore R&D is done... DirecTV will still dictate the criteria and the feature set... and what if that R&D that was done... doesn't jive with any of the criteria...
> 
> Now that I think about it a tad more....
> Then the COX version shoudl be right around the corner then... as all the heavily R&D would be done by now, to allow the T3 to work on any system.


I think we may see a new D* TiVo HD sooner rather than later.

The HR20 uses the Broadcom BCm7038. Taken from Broadcom's website:
"
The BCM7038 is an advanced dual channel HD video/audio/graphics and personal video recording (PVR) chip that enables manufacturers to economically incorporate high-quality HDTV capability and PVR features into digital televisions, cable set-top boxes, satellite receivers and HD-DVD players. The chip's dual video/audio channels simultaneously support dual televisions, with independent picture-in-picture support on main and secondary. Advanced video and graphics features, such as on-chip 3D Y/C separation circuit multi-frame de-interlacing, and quad video scalars with single pass processing, significantly improve the HD picture quality, by removing unwanted noise and artifacts from the television image. The chip supports common PVR functions such as pausing live programming, recording, and forwarding and reversing through recorded programs, as well as incorporates software drivers to support industry standard PVR platforms, *including TiVo*® and XTV™. "

taken from:
http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Digital-TV-Solutions/BCM7038

Same chipset used in the S3 Tivos.

The port onto the HR20 should be very straightforward.

I should also note, quite happily, they refer to TiVo as one of two "industry standard PVR platforms". :lol:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> [Putting on the Devil's Advocate Hat]
> 
> 1) The HR10 doesn't have the appropriate hardware decoder.
> 2) It does have the ability to record any stream coming in
> 3) It's not impossible to do decoding in software.
> 
> So...
> 
> Decoding HD Lite in software is nowhere near as formidable a challenge as decoding true HD would be.
> 
> Would it work? Don't rightly know but, in theory, it is possible.


#1 - No it doesn't have the appropirate hardware to see the 99 and 103 SAT... so even if a software patch was put in place to software decode MPEG-4... it still wouldn't see it.

#2 - It can only record, what it can see

#3 - If they did include software MPEG-4 encoding..... it would have to use it's processing power for that... instead of everything else it needs to do.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> I think we may see a new D* TiVo HD sooner rather than later.
> 
> The HR20 uses the Broadcom BCm7038. Taken from Broadcom's website:
> "
> The BCM7038 is an advanced dual channel HD video/audio/graphics and personal video recording (PVR) chip that enables manufacturers to economically incorporate high-quality HDTV capability and PVR features into digital televisions, cable set-top boxes, satellite receivers and HD-DVD players. The chip's dual video/audio channels simultaneously support dual televisions, with independent picture-in-picture support on main and secondary. Advanced video and graphics features, such as on-chip 3D Y/C separation circuit multi-frame de-interlacing, and quad video scalars with single pass processing, significantly improve the HD picture quality, by removing unwanted noise and artifacts from the television image. The chip supports common PVR functions such as pausing live programming, recording, and forwarding and reversing through recorded programs, as well as incorporates software drivers to support industry standard PVR platforms, *including TiVo*® and XTV™. "
> 
> taken from:
> http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Digital-TV-Solutions/BCM7038
> 
> Same chipset used in the S3 Tivos.
> 
> The port onto the HR20 should be very straightforward.
> 
> I should also note, quite happily, they refer to TiVo as one of two "industry standard PVR platforms". :lol:


Wanna put money on it?

There is a LOT more to software then just 1 chip in the entire system.


----------



## bonscott87

Chuck584 said:


> What is the new (proposed?) channel lineup?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87235

similar list: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851257


----------



## Tugboat

Isn't it time to pass around the crow for all those instant Tivo-haters who went absolutely out of their way to defend the HR20 as if it were on the same level as the Directivos in terms of reliability? Obviously, this move signals a renewed Tivo-Directv relationship. I'd say Liberty Media paid attention to those of us who have not had a Tivo-like experience with our HR20s (and the SD DVR too).


----------



## Earl Bonovich

When and if there is time to eat crow.... I'll have no issue eating it...

But that bird isn't even packed in a box yet to be shipped...

So when this "new found relationship" turns into nothing more then a minor updated for the aging DTiVo fleet... and nothing else comes out of it..

Be sure to offer your shipping address, so the crow can be delivered.

This is not the 1st... nor the 2nd... this is the 3rd such... 
"TiVo is back" cycle

(1st being the original extension, 2nd being the 6.x updates, this is now the 3rd).

Liberty has not taken their seats on the BOARD of DirecTV Group; They legally can not be participants in any deals or conversations, until the stock swap is approved and completed.


----------



## jal

Tugboat said:


> Isn't it time to pass around the crow for all those instant Tivo-haters who went absolutely out of their way to defend the HR20 as if it were on the same level as the Directivos in terms of reliability? Obviously, this move signals a renewed Tivo-Directv relationship. I'd say Liberty Media paid attention to those of us who have not had a Tivo-like experience with our HR20s (and the SD DVR too).


Well put. My 3 year old HR10-250 TIVO is much more reliable than my HR20, even to this day.


----------



## Tugboat

Earl Bonovich said:


> When and if there is time to eat crow.... I'll have no issue eating it...
> 
> But that bird isn't even packed in a box yet to be shipped...
> 
> So when this "new found relationship" turns into nothing more then a minor updated for the aging DTiVo fleet... and nothing else comes out of it..
> 
> Be sure to offer your shipping address, so the crow can be delivered.
> 
> This is not the 1st... nor the 2nd... this is the 3rd such...
> "TiVo is back" cycle
> 
> (1st being the original extension, 2nd being the 6.x updates, this is now the 3rd).
> 
> Liberty has not taken their seats on the BOARD of DirecTV Group; They legally can not be participants in any deals or conversations, until the stock swap is approved and completed.


Fair enough. We'll see where it all goes. But I'd be willing to put a small prop bet on a further developed Tivo-Directv partnership (an MPEG4 Tivo in some form?) down the road. Any takers?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tugboat said:


> Fair enough. We'll see where it all goes. But I'd be willing to put a small prop bet on a further developed Tivo-Directv partnership (an MPEG4 Tivo in some form?) down the road. Any takers?


I am a taker...
What's your prop bet.


----------



## bonscott87

Tugboat said:


> Obviously, this move signals a renewed Tivo-Directv relationship.


What renewed relationship? They have a contract thru 2010 to provide updates. So Tivo is doing that. Nothing more.



> I'd say Liberty Media paid attention to those of us who have not had a Tivo-like experience with our HR20s (and the SD DVR too).


As pointed out Liberty doesn't have anything to do with DirecTV at this time.


----------



## Schyler

Hoping upon hope that this update will include a bit of code to kill the neverending, soul-destroying "Daily Call" nag screen. A few months ago, my DVR80 started freezing up because of too many of these unread messages.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Schyler said:


> Hoping upon hope that this update will include a bit of code to kill the neverending, soul-destroying "Daily Call" nag screen. A few months ago, my DVR80 started freezing up because of too many of these unread messages.


Very small chance, as they haven't gotten rid of it on any incarnation of TiVo's software.


----------



## Schyler

Is that something that TiVo insists on, then? Because the HR20 thankfully has no such requirement.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Earl Bonovich said:


> This is not the 1st... nor the 2nd... this is the 3rd such...
> "TiVo is back" cycle
> 
> (1st being the original extension, 2nd being the 6.x updates, this is now the 3rd).
> 
> Liberty has not taken their seats on the BOARD of DirecTV Group; They legally can not be participants in any deals or conversations, until the stock swap is approved and completed.


Earl, as they say, the 3rd times the charm. 

And I thought the stock swap was approved, but just not "completed" yet?

And why would you be so against D* offering a Tivo option again, in addition to the HR20? The HR20 could be the "basic HD-DVR" while the Tivo would be an option for those that wanted it. You could keep your HR20's while others would be able to keep/go back to their Tivo's. No big deal, everyone would be happy, it would be a win-win situation for everyone.


----------



## Tugboat

bonscott87 said:


> What renewed relationship? They have a contract thru 2010 to provide updates. So Tivo is doing that. Nothing more.
> 
> As pointed out Liberty doesn't have anything to do with DirecTV at this time.


Doubtful Directv would even bother with an update since the Directivos are already working fine (our two are, at least). Why add any functionality at all? What difference would it make? Seems pretty strange. See you are sticking to your "Tivo will have no place at Directv once 2010 hits" mentality.

Sure, Liberty has nothing to do with Directv's decisions at this time. Say what? Is that because Earl says so? Give me a break about legality, etc.


----------



## Tugboat

theratpatrol said:


> Earl, as they say, the 3rd times the charm.
> 
> And I thought the stock swap was approved, but just not "completed" yet?
> 
> And why would you be so against D* offering a Tivo option again, in addition to the HR20? The HR20 could be the "basic HD-DVR" while the Tivo would be an option for those that wanted it. You could keep your HR20's while others would be able to keep/go back to their Tivo's. No big deal, everyone would be happy, it would be a win-win situation for everyone.


On the money. This latest announcement is much more than a rumor, it's happening. Some folks on DBSTalk don't like the fact that a Tivo-Directv relationship might be renewed because they have invested so heavily in saying and hoping otherwise.

The more choice, the happier the subscriber base. Why not at least look into an HD Tivo for MPEG4? Seems to make sense to me. If Comcast gets its Tivo interface out there, the are gonna market the crap out of it, believe me. Directv will want to be in the "me too" mode. Just look at the nonsense on HD PQ going on right now.


----------



## bidger

I'm not sure what Malone really intends to do with the company right now or in the future. Let's not forget how he got his shares, a billionaire who was quite fervent in his pursuit of DIREC*TV* became disillusioned, even calling the company "turd bird", offered the shares so that he could have more control over his primary company. For all intents and purposes, the company fell in Malone's lap.

I'm sure Malone has ideas as to what he'd like to do with DIREC*TV* and being a businessman, I'd have to assume profitability is first on the list. He could wait until the company is at its peak from a profit standpoint, both new satellites deployed and operational, 100% local-in-local US coverage, and a healthy HD package, and then sell it. Maybe he's in it for the long haul, but could find the same or similar frustrations Murdoch experienced.

Either way, I don't see how TiVo offers any significant added value. It's only netted ~ 2 million subs to this point. I think more HD is a far bigger potential for sub growth than a DVR platform.

Bottomline is, I need to hear it from Malone or a highly-placed DIREC*TV* official before I believe a MPEG 4 TiVo is imminent.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

theratpatrol said:


> Earl, as they say, the 3rd times the charm.
> 
> And I thought the stock swap was approved, but just not "completed" yet?
> 
> And why would you be so against D* offering a Tivo option again, in addition to the HR20? The HR20 could be the "basic HD-DVR" while the Tivo would be an option for those that wanted it. You could keep your HR20's while others would be able to keep/go back to their Tivo's. No big deal, everyone would be happy, it would be a win-win situation for everyone.


The stock swap has been "approved" to continue it's process... but until it is "complete"... it is not complete.

In fact, there have been a few entities that have filed "issues" (not sure what the official term is), about the stock swap... (Dish Re: BTN; Couple local station groups, ect...)

I am not "against" TiVo comming back into the fold... I just don't see it happening. You won't see me with a sour face if they do come back in, unless I got a bad BBQ sauce for the crow.

My biggest concern... would be the progress on either platform be stagnet, and we run into support/feature issues, like with RCA and wInk (which failed misserable, because only a small portion of the user base had it)... interactive, unless the new TiVo would have the same interactive engine... major feature differences between the two... that would make support of the products that much more difficult.

Confusion on sales... (especially if the feature set was different), ect....
(Which is similar to what happen when UTV and TiVo were out at the same time.... UTV didn't get that much "acceptance", and eventually had to be shutdown.... and many argue that it was a better system then both the DVR+ and TiVo...)

That is my only concern with TiVo comming back into the fold.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tugboat said:


> Doubtful Directv would even bother with an update since the Directivos are already working fine (our two are, at least). Why add any functionality at all? What difference would it make? Seems pretty strange. See you are sticking to your "Tivo will have no place at Directv once 2010 hits" mentality.


There are plenty of reasons.... to do it, and has been discused a few times in this thread



Tugboat said:


> Sure, Liberty has nothing to do with Directv's decisions at this time. Say what? Is that because Earl says so? Give me a break about legality, etc.


Do you have an understanding of how these mergers and other things take place? The legal restrictions that go on?

I hae been part of some, of magnitudes less of dollars... and their are so many restrictions it is just nuts.... the proposed new owners of our company were not even allowed to talk to the employees, until it was a done deal.

So the notion that Liberty would be working out deals, and extensions with a third party vendor of this magnitude... come on now...
What if they work out something, and then the stock swap gets nixed at last moment... then what happens?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Tugboat said:


> On the money. This latest announcement is much more than a rumor, it's happening. Some folks on DBSTalk don't like the fact that a Tivo-Directv relationship might be renewed because they have invested so heavily in saying and hoping otherwise.
> 
> The more choice, the happier the subscriber base. Why not at least look into an HD Tivo for MPEG4? Seems to make sense to me. If Comcast gets its Tivo interface out there, the are gonna market the crap out of it, believe me. Directv will want to be in the "me too" mode. Just look at the nonsense on HD PQ going on right now.


As pointed out... this is the 3rd such announcement... and the first two have lead to nothing more, then (The 2nd, and now this 3rd)...

So pardon us for not screaming from top of the moutain that the savior has returned...

There a SIGNIFICANT issues, based on historical reasoning... to not have a 2nd vendor...

Let's wait and see what the Comcast TiVo is going to be like, before banking on it.... they can market the "crap" out of it... but if it is "crap" (because of what ever modifications COMCAST has requested), are the cries going to be out there... "Bring TRUE TiVo to COMCAST"... going to be just as loud, and as proud as the ones that are here on the DirecTV side.

There MUST be a reason why... TWC, DishNetwork, Charter, Cablevision, and other carriers... are NOT using TiVo... are they all "as dumb" as people are painting TiVo.

Where is the COX version of the TiVo... it has been what a year since it's announcement... and there hasn't be as much as a sniff on it's progress.

The COMCAST one has taken over TWO years... and it is not even in a consumer's home yet...

Look at the T3... all the fan fair... and then boom when it is released...
What is one of the first posts: WHERE ARE ALL THE OTHER TIVO FEATURES?

So... why don't you sit back... and enjoy the announcement for what it actualy contains... enjoy speculating some... but don't be too broken hearted if this turns out to be nothing more then, just an extension of life for a 5+ year old hardware/software platform.


----------



## MikeR

Tugboat said:


> On the money. This latest announcement is much more than a rumor, it's happening.


It's not happening today or in the near future....



> _By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 7/30/2007_
> All of TiVo's product development right now is oriented toward cable," said Jeff Klugman, senior vice president of TiVo's service-provider and advertising engineering division. "As a company, we are focused on supporting the cable industry."
> 
> Added Klugman: "None of our product development is going to satellite."


http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6463882.html


----------



## Fygg

Earl Bonovich said:


> There MUST be a reason why... TWC, DishNetwork, Charter, Cablevision, and other carriers... are NOT using TiVo... are they all "as dumb" as people are painting TiVo(?)


Sure there's a reason! We've had years and years of their competitors and the media and telling us and any one else that'll listen that "tivo is just a dvr". (As a matter of fact, just stick that phrase in google and see how many articles pop up.) And if "tivo is just a dvr", why pay tivo when you could do it yourself? They keep telling us that tivo is nothing special at all.

I'm not going to argue that point. I'm just offering that up as a reason why, just to answer that one question.

Once you know what a tivo can actually do, some of those statements can be rather comical. Also, I HAD to reply to have a chance to use this quote from one of the many "tivo is just a dvr" articles:


> TiVo, the poster child of technological advancement for companies like Direct TV, *is really nothing more than a middle-aged woman in a designer dress - with plastic surgery.* The technology behind TiVo is really just a tweaked DVR, or digital video recorder.


I swear! It's real!!!

http://www.vectorpedia.com/news.php?CatID=34&ArtID=55304

What a HOOT!!!!


----------



## rahvin

Earl Bonovich said:


> There a SIGNIFICANT issues, based on historical reasoning... to not have a 2nd vendor...


Pardon me while I come out of the woodwork, but I'll tell you something you don't know, which is how Malone and Liberty Media run their business. He's a ruthless believer in growth. When Liberty Media took over the LA Times newspaper in the early 90's it had won 19 Pulitzer prizes, was either the top ranked or second highest ranked paper in the country (depending on who you asked of course) it was also making a PROFIT of $200million a year. He immediately slashed journalist staff and started sourcing most of the stories through the AP. Within 2 years less than 5% of the original journalists remained and the paper had been reduced to something similar to other papers around the country. He increased his profit substantially in the short term. In an interview the reason cited for doing what he did is that papers are in general in decline due to the internet, and it didn't matter that the LA Times was profitable in the short term, costs needed to be cut NOW to keep profitability in the future.

What I expect will happen once he has control is that he's gonna put the numbers to the costs of all those in house programmers (not just their salaries either), then he's going to compare that support costs of both the Tivo's and the internal stuff and he's going to price shop the TIVO software on the HR20, and although remote possibly a new S3 Tivo for DirecTV. And based on where the finances come out he's going to cut, and cut big. I would imagine (although I won't predict) that the internal costs far exceed a subcontracted feature based contract with a small yearly service fee for security updates etc... This is especially true as he won't ever be able to get rid of the in house programmers if features need to be added because he has to engineer everything from scratch and this type of programming isn't the type of stuff you can hire out unless you buy a complete product.

It's rare in any industry where it make sense to start from scratch where you can buy completed pieces on the open market for cheaper than you can do it yourself. Software engineers are expensive, amortized long term costs will likely reveal that it's twice as cheap to hire Tivo than build the stuff in house. And given Liberty Media's relentless drive for profitability we will either see an immediate sale of DirecTV as an unprofitable enterprise or Malone's gonna cut heads left and right.

Either way I think your prediction that the TIVO option doesn't make sense financially is shaky at best. I would agree with you if by XX date every programmer was fired but that's not what you appear to think is going to happen. Your statement leads me to believe that you think it's cheaper to retain all these in house programmers for eternity rather than buy features from Tivo as needed. In that regard I think Tivo will beat in house options hands down. As I said, the times where it's cheaper to build it in house are extremely rare, and the only times it really works is when you bring the programmers in write the application and fire them all and work on security updates only. (and in most cases it's only the most severe that you fix). Malone runs his business very differently than any previous owner of DirecTV, regardless of what happens it's going to be painful for the employee's, that I guarantee.


----------



## bidger

Maybe one aspect Malone will take into consideration is the TiVos tend to be hacked and that's not true of the in-house DVRs.


----------



## jal

rahvin said:


> Pardon me while I come out of the woodwork, but I'll tell you something you don't know, which is how Malone and Liberty Media run their business. He's a ruthless believer in growth. When Liberty Media took over the LA Times newspaper in the early 90's it had won 19 Pulitzer prizes, was either the top ranked or second highest ranked paper in the country (depending on who you asked of course) it was also making a PROFIT of $200million a year. He immediately slashed journalist staff and started sourcing most of the stories through the AP. Within 2 years less than 5% of the original journalists remained and the paper had been reduced to something similar to other papers around the country. He increased his profit substantially in the short term. In an interview the reason cited for doing what he did is that papers are in general in decline due to the internet, and it didn't matter that the LA Times was profitable in the short term, costs needed to be cut NOW to keep profitability in the future.
> 
> What I expect will happen once he has control is that he's gonna put the numbers to the costs of all those in house programmers (not just their salaries either), then he's going to compare that support costs of both the Tivo's and the internal stuff and he's going to price shop the TIVO software on the HR20, and although remote possibly a new S3 Tivo for DirecTV. And based on where the finances come out he's going to cut, and cut big. I would imagine (although I won't predict) that the internal costs far exceed a subcontracted feature based contract with a small yearly service fee for security updates etc... This is especially true as he won't ever be able to get rid of the in house programmers if features need to be added because he has to engineer everything from scratch and this type of programming isn't the type of stuff you can hire out unless you buy a complete product.
> 
> It's rare in any industry where it make sense to start from scratch where you can buy completed pieces on the open market for cheaper than you can do it yourself. Software engineers are expensive, amortized long term costs will likely reveal that it's twice as cheap to hire Tivo than build the stuff in house. And given Liberty Media's relentless drive for profitability we will either see an immediate sale of DirecTV as an unprofitable enterprise or Malone's gonna cut heads left and right.
> 
> Either way I think your prediction that the TIVO option doesn't make sense financially is shaky at best. I would agree with you if by XX date every programmer was fired but that's not what you appear to think is going to happen. Your statement leads me to believe that you think it's cheaper to retain all these in house programmers for eternity rather than buy features from Tivo as needed. In that regard I think Tivo will beat in house options hands down. As I said, the times where it's cheaper to build it in house are extremely rare, and the only times it really works is when you bring the programmers in write the application and fire them all and work on security updates only. (and in most cases it's only the most severe that you fix). Malone runs his business very differently than any previous owner of DirecTV, regardless of what happens it's going to be painful for the employee's, that I guarantee.


Excellent post!


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> Wanna put money on it?
> 
> There is a LOT more to software then just 1 chip in the entire system.


By that reasoning Windows should only run on one CPU with one support chipset.
By that reasoning I can't have Apple's OS/X running on my Inspiron 6400
By that reasoning Linux shouldn't have been ported to just about every CPU ever made including the Broadcom chipset in question.

Consider these verifiable facts:

1) The Broadcom chip has the drivers to handle TiVo right now.
2) The Broadcom chip is used in S3 TiVo
3) TiVo uses a different chipset in the new TiVo HD
4) TiVo has ported their software to Motoroal boxes for Comcast

It sure looks to me like TiVo's software engineers have the talent to do the job.

In theory, D* could keep the current OS for people like you who don't like TiVo.

In theory, D* could keep current and future D* TiVo fans happy by offering TiVo on the HR20.

To offset the expense, they could implement a new "choice" fee. Say a half a buck a month. They could use the procedes from the fee to fund the selected software development. Then the market could decide.

Software is not a mystery, it is a well defined science. The primary factor in how well the software does it's designed function couples specification with implementation.

Once the specifications are drawn, the engineering begins. Ten engineers may well tackle the same job using different paths. One or several engineers may be very talened and use "best practice". Some may get to the same end by a long and convoluted path with many false starts and falls along the way.

I understand you have a very close relationship with D* and, perhaps, have a close relationship with one or more people on the D* software team. Please understand I am not attacking you or them.

I'm simply saying TiVo knows DVRs. They have a long track record of success. No TiVo product has ever had the myriad issues on a continuing basis.

The HR20 is currently the only choice for D* HD. If a D* TiVo competitor shows up, well, doesn't competiton drive innovation?

Let the market place decide. D* knows, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that D* customers embrace TiVo for SD. Have you not said there is no reason for D* SD customers to move from the TiVo box to the in-house box?

Why would they expect it to be different for HD? Give us, the customer, the people who pay for the service, the option to decide which we like best.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> As pointed out... this is the 3rd such announcement... and the first two have lead to nothing more, then (The 2nd, and now this 3rd)...
> 
> So pardon us for not screaming from top of the moutain that the savior has returned...
> 
> There a SIGNIFICANT issues, based on historical reasoning... to not have a 2nd vendor...
> 
> Let's wait and see what the Comcast TiVo is going to be like, before banking on it.... they can market the "crap" out of it... but if it is "crap" (because of what ever modifications COMCAST has requested), are the cries going to be out there... "Bring TRUE TiVo to COMCAST"... going to be just as loud, and as proud as the ones that are here on the DirecTV side.
> 
> There MUST be a reason why... TWC, DishNetwork, Charter, Cablevision, and other carriers... are NOT using TiVo... are they all "as dumb" as people are painting TiVo.
> 
> Where is the COX version of the TiVo... it has been what a year since it's announcement... and there hasn't be as much as a sniff on it's progress.
> 
> The COMCAST one has taken over TWO years... and it is not even in a consumer's home yet...
> 
> Look at the T3... all the fan fair... and then boom when it is released...
> What is one of the first posts: WHERE ARE ALL THE OTHER TIVO FEATURES?
> 
> So... why don't you sit back... and enjoy the announcement for what it actualy contains... enjoy speculating some... but don't be too broken hearted if this turns out to be nothing more then, just an extension of life for a 5+ year old hardware/software platform.


I get it.

You don't like TiVo.

You wish TiVo would fail.

If TiVo goes away, the HR20 will look good why?

TiVo just won't go away.

So just bash TiVo some more while they continue to explore options with D* competitors. That goes a long way toward making the HR20 a wonderful, bug free product.


----------



## Chuck584

rahvin said:


> Pardon me while I come out of the woodwork, but I'll tell you something you don't know, which is how Malone and Liberty Media run their business. He's a ruthless believer in growth. When Liberty Media took over the LA Times newspaper in the early 90's it had won 19 Pulitzer prizes, was either the top ranked or second highest ranked paper in the country (depending on who you asked of course) it was also making a PROFIT of $200million a year. He immediately slashed journalist staff and started sourcing most of the stories through the AP. Within 2 years less than 5% of the original journalists remained and the paper had been reduced to something similar to other papers around the country. He increased his profit substantially in the short term. In an interview the reason cited for doing what he did is that papers are in general in decline due to the internet, and it didn't matter that the LA Times was profitable in the short term, costs needed to be cut NOW to keep profitability in the future.
> 
> What I expect will happen once he has control is that he's gonna put the numbers to the costs of all those in house programmers (not just their salaries either), then he's going to compare that support costs of both the Tivo's and the internal stuff and he's going to price shop the TIVO software on the HR20, and although remote possibly a new S3 Tivo for DirecTV. And based on where the finances come out he's going to cut, and cut big. I would imagine (although I won't predict) that the internal costs far exceed a subcontracted feature based contract with a small yearly service fee for security updates etc... This is especially true as he won't ever be able to get rid of the in house programmers if features need to be added because he has to engineer everything from scratch and this type of programming isn't the type of stuff you can hire out unless you buy a complete product.
> 
> It's rare in any industry where it make sense to start from scratch where you can buy completed pieces on the open market for cheaper than you can do it yourself. Software engineers are expensive, amortized long term costs will likely reveal that it's twice as cheap to hire Tivo than build the stuff in house. And given Liberty Media's relentless drive for profitability we will either see an immediate sale of DirecTV as an unprofitable enterprise or Malone's gonna cut heads left and right.
> 
> Either way I think your prediction that the TIVO option doesn't make sense financially is shaky at best. I would agree with you if by XX date every programmer was fired but that's not what you appear to think is going to happen. Your statement leads me to believe that you think it's cheaper to retain all these in house programmers for eternity rather than buy features from Tivo as needed. In that regard I think Tivo will beat in house options hands down. As I said, the times where it's cheaper to build it in house are extremely rare, and the only times it really works is when you bring the programmers in write the application and fire them all and work on security updates only. (and in most cases it's only the most severe that you fix). Malone runs his business very differently than any previous owner of DirecTV, regardless of what happens it's going to be painful for the employee's, that I guarantee.


Thank you for coming out of the woodwork. 

You've made excellent points.


----------



## Chuck584

bidger said:


> Maybe one aspect Malone will take into consideration is the TiVos tend to be hacked and that's not true of the in-house DVRs.


Um, okay.

The TiVo community embraces enhancement to functionality through use of the GPL which does not result in theft of services and this is a bad thing how?

I can install two drives in my TiVo, a terrabyte each, for 1400+ hours of SD storage and this is a bad thing how?

Um, if I put a terabyte drive in my HR20, did I just "hack" it?

Um, okay.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> When and if there is time to eat crow.... I'll have no issue eating it...
> 
> But that bird isn't even packed in a box yet to be shipped...
> 
> So when this "new found relationship" turns into nothing more then a minor updated for the aging DTiVo fleet... and nothing else comes out of it..
> 
> Be sure to offer your shipping address, so the crow can be delivered.
> 
> This is not the 1st... nor the 2nd... this is the 3rd such...
> "TiVo is back" cycle
> 
> (1st being the original extension, 2nd being the 6.x updates, this is now the 3rd).
> 
> Liberty has not taken their seats on the BOARD of DirecTV Group; They legally can not be participants in any deals or conversations, until the stock swap is approved and completed.


I'm going to write a letter tomorrow to Malone and outline my experience with the HR20 as compared to my experience with the Philips DSR704 and Samsung SIR-4120R.

No opinion, just a side by side comparison.

Not that he'd listen to someone who is just a customer...


----------



## bidger

Sweet Jesus, what is this, the "Chuck584 thread"?! So you liked what rahvin posted, was it really f&$#ing necessary to quote it _twice_?! You could have edited your original quote to add your appreciation.

And if you knew the history of the D-TiVo you'd be aware that there was a hack that added a phony "Lifetime Service" entry for Account Status. That "theft of service" enough for ya? Um...okay?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> I get it.
> 
> You don't like TiVo.
> 
> You wish TiVo would fail.
> 
> If TiVo goes away, the HR20 will look good why?
> 
> TiVo just won't go away.
> 
> So just bash TiVo some more while they continue to explore options with D* competitors. That goes a long way toward making the HR20 a wonderful, bug free product.


If I didn't like TiVo... I wouldn't have spent over $3,000 on their hardware over the last 7 years... nor would I have just installed one at my Mother's home... or continue to work with my other family members.

I have never once said I wish TiVo will fail... not once.

You just seem not to understand... that TiVo is not the end-all-be all...
That there are alternatives out there... and the world will not come to an end if TiVo doesn't return to DirecTV.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> By that reasoning Windows should only run on one CPU with one support chipset.
> By that reasoning I can't have Apple's OS/X running on my Inspiron 6400
> By that reasoning Linux shouldn't have been ported to just about every CPU ever made including the Broadcom chipset in question.
> 
> Consider these verifiable facts:
> 
> 1) The Broadcom chip has the drivers to handle TiVo right now.
> 2) The Broadcom chip is used in S3 TiVo
> 3) TiVo uses a different chipset in the new TiVo HD
> 4) TiVo has ported their software to Motoroal boxes for Comcast
> 
> It sure looks to me like TiVo's software engineers have the talent to do the job.
> 
> In theory, D* could keep the current OS for people like you who don't like TiVo.
> 
> In theory, D* could keep current and future D* TiVo fans happy by offering TiVo on the HR20.
> 
> To offset the expense, they could implement a new "choice" fee. Say a half a buck a month. They could use the procedes from the fee to fund the selected software development. Then the market could decide.
> 
> Software is not a mystery, it is a well defined science. The primary factor in how well the software does it's designed function couples specification with implementation.
> 
> Once the specifications are drawn, the engineering begins. Ten engineers may well tackle the same job using different paths. One or several engineers may be very talened and use "best practice". Some may get to the same end by a long and convoluted path with many false starts and falls along the way.
> 
> I understand you have a very close relationship with D* and, perhaps, have a close relationship with one or more people on the D* software team. Please understand I am not attacking you or them.
> 
> I'm simply saying TiVo knows DVRs. They have a long track record of success. No TiVo product has ever had the myriad issues on a continuing basis.
> 
> The HR20 is currently the only choice for D* HD. If a D* TiVo competitor shows up, well, doesn't competiton drive innovation?
> 
> Let the market place decide. D* knows, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that D* customers embrace TiVo for SD. Have you not said there is no reason for D* SD customers to move from the TiVo box to the in-house box?
> 
> Why would they expect it to be different for HD? Give us, the customer, the people who pay for the service, the option to decide which we like best.


TiVo only has "success" so far with hardware help build and design.
COMCAST TiVo will be their first attempt to stuff their software, into a hardware platform... that wasn't designed for TiVo from the ground up.

As for your PC/Computer examples... that is like comparing Kumkwats to Grapefruits... they are both Citrus... but all the factors are not even remotely the same.

Software development is "far" from a science... sure it follows rules and procedures... it is just as much an "art" as a lot of things....

You do have the choice... you can chose a different provider... and the DVR of your choice... that allone drive competition, and innovation.,


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> I'm going to write a letter tomorrow to Malone and outline my experience with the HR20 as compared to my experience with the Philips DSR704 and Samsung SIR-4120R.
> 
> No opinion, just a side by side comparison.
> 
> Not that he'd listen to someone who is just a customer...


Need a pen?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> Um, okay.
> 
> The TiVo community embraces enhancement to functionality through use of the GPL which does not result in theft of services and this is a bad thing how?
> 
> I can install two drives in my TiVo, a terrabyte each, for 1400+ hours of SD storage and this is a bad thing how?
> 
> Um, if I put a terabyte drive in my HR20, did I just "hack" it?
> 
> Um, okay.


As pointed out... those hacks.. did leave to ability to enable LIFETIME without a legit subscription... so yes... there is a theft of service.

Other hacks, have also lead to the extraction of the video contents on the hard drive... which circumvents the digital encryption... which is a security and a violation of LAW.... So yes... there are plenty of bad things about how "wide open" the TiVo platform is.

If you put a terabyte drive in your HR20... No that really isn't a hack... but you did violate your lease by doing it.,


----------



## gtaker

rahvin said:


> Pardon me while I come out of the woodwork, but I'll tell you something you don't know, which is how Malone and Liberty Media run their business. He's a ruthless believer in growth. When Liberty Media took over the LA Times newspaper in the early 90's it had won 19 Pulitzer prizes, was either the top ranked or second highest ranked paper in the country (depending on who you asked of course) it was also making a PROFIT of $200million a year. He immediately slashed journalist staff and started sourcing most of the stories through the AP. Within 2 years less than 5% of the original journalists remained and the paper had been reduced to something similar to other papers around the country. He increased his profit substantially in the short term. In an interview the reason cited for doing what he did is that papers are in general in decline due to the internet, and it didn't matter that the LA Times was profitable in the short term, costs needed to be cut NOW to keep profitability in the future.
> 
> What I expect will happen once he has control is that he's gonna put the numbers to the costs of all those in house programmers (not just their salaries either), then he's going to compare that support costs of both the Tivo's and the internal stuff and he's going to price shop the TIVO software on the HR20, and although remote possibly a new S3 Tivo for DirecTV. And based on where the finances come out he's going to cut, and cut big. I would imagine (although I won't predict) that the internal costs far exceed a subcontracted feature based contract with a small yearly service fee for security updates etc... This is especially true as he won't ever be able to get rid of the in house programmers if features need to be added because he has to engineer everything from scratch and this type of programming isn't the type of stuff you can hire out unless you buy a complete product.
> 
> It's rare in any industry where it make sense to start from scratch where you can buy completed pieces on the open market for cheaper than you can do it yourself. Software engineers are expensive, amortized long term costs will likely reveal that it's twice as cheap to hire Tivo than build the stuff in house. And given Liberty Media's relentless drive for profitability we will either see an immediate sale of DirecTV as an unprofitable enterprise or Malone's gonna cut heads left and right.
> 
> Either way I think your prediction that the TIVO option doesn't make sense financially is shaky at best. I would agree with you if by XX date every programmer was fired but that's not what you appear to think is going to happen. Your statement leads me to believe that you think it's cheaper to retain all these in house programmers for eternity rather than buy features from Tivo as needed. In that regard I think Tivo will beat in house options hands down. As I said, the times where it's cheaper to build it in house are extremely rare, and the only times it really works is when you bring the programmers in write the application and fire them all and work on security updates only. (and in most cases it's only the most severe that you fix). Malone runs his business very differently than any previous owner of DirecTV, regardless of what happens it's going to be painful for the employee's, that I guarantee.


I have to agree with him, I work for a company that is cutting the IT staff it is cheaper to outsource, they don't have to pay the benefits to the employees it they are gone ( health and pension).. direct tv core business is delivering you a broadcast stream.. that is profit, if tivo is cheaper than doing it in-house then they will outsource it ...Just look at Boeing the 787 is made in different countries and put together here in the US ....


----------



## MikeR

Chuck584 said:


> I'm going to write a letter tomorrow to Malone and outline my experience with the HR20 as compared to my experience with the Philips DSR704 and Samsung SIR-4120R.
> 
> No opinion, just a side by side comparison.
> Not that he'd listen to someone who is just a customer...


Maybe they will listen to this customer that already sent a letter, praising their efforts with the HR20, and the desire never to see a return of TiVo software on their platforms.

Also, this is all moot at this point, if you forget....


> By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 7/30/2007
> All of TiVo's product development right now is oriented toward cable," said Jeff Klugman, senior vice president of TiVo's service-provider and advertising engineering division. "As a company, we are focused on supporting the cable industry."
> 
> Added Klugman: "*None of our product development is going to satellite." *


----------



## Tugboat

Earl, you are now an M&A expert too? There are subtle ways for new ownership to direct their about to be acquired company, legal or not.

I know it's tough to face marketplace realities when you have buddied up with the "old" Directv, but as others have posted, things are going to change dramatically when Malone takes over, and it won't take long. I am hardly alone in thinking that either (and on balance, it won't necessarily be great for Directv subs). But on the Tivo front, just read over this piece from Ars Technia (see link). Why would Directv bother to make this announcement six months before it happens? Because they didn't want to be left out of the news when cable companies start offering a Tivo interface, etc. (just read the piece below).

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...e-signs-of-new-love-between-tivo-directv.html

It must be hard to finally have to admit you possibly bet on the wrong horse, aka the HR20. Sure, the race is still on, but it looks like the stone cold lock of Directv dumping Tivo for its own DVRs is no longer a fait accompli. It only makes sense, using logic posted here by others and on news sites, that if its cheaper to partner up with Tivo for an HD solution/option, Malone and his gang are going make it happen.

If you think Directv's decision to add functionality to the old Directivos had no input from Maffei and Malone, however subtle or clandestine, you are even more naive than I thought.

You could still be right as to the HR20 being the only Directv HD DVR in the future, but I would say the smoke signals are not blowing your way. This isn't just #3 in a series of small Tivo/Directv-related events of the recent past. This one is much more meaningful, IMO. The next logical step is building more partnerships, and one that could include HD.



Earl Bonovich said:


> There are plenty of reasons.... to do it, and has been discused a few times in this thread
> 
> Do you have an understanding of how these mergers and other things take place? The legal restrictions that go on?
> 
> I hae been part of some, of magnitudes less of dollars... and their are so many restrictions it is just nuts.... the proposed new owners of our company were not even allowed to talk to the employees, until it was a done deal.
> 
> So the notion that Liberty would be working out deals, and extensions with a third party vendor of this magnitude... come on now...
> What if they work out something, and then the stock swap gets nixed at last moment... then what happens?


----------



## Tugboat

So the announcement that Directv will send down Directivo functionality updates is not happening? It was a hoax? That's what is happening. Guess you missed the point. And if Directv came to Tivo and asked them to start developing some HD solutions, I'm sure Jeff Klugman would say "no thanks." Right.



MikeR said:


> It's not happening today or in the near future....
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6463882.html


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Nope... not a M&A expert... I just stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night.

But do know a bit about common sense... If you think they are already "tinker" and working out deals... before the ink is dry... Do you know how many other companies out there would be pointing that out already?

But I guess you are the M&A expert... 

Lets see where it all goes... But hey... If you are right... and that new MPEG-4 DTiVo comes down the pipe (be it 2,3,4 years from now)..

I'll say congrats... and let you know how all the HD channels have been for the previous years...

Promise one thing... seriously...
In two years from now... when there is still no new deal... no new MPEG-4 DTiVo... you will at least come back, and visit...


----------



## Chuck584

MikeR said:


> Maybe they will listen to this customer that already sent a letter, praising their efforts with the HR20, and the desire never to see a return of TiVo software on their platforms.
> 
> Also, this is all moot at this point, if you forget....
> Quote:
> By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 7/30/2007
> All of TiVo's product development right now is oriented toward cable," said Jeff Klugman, senior vice president of TiVo's service-provider and advertising engineering division. "As a company, we are focused on supporting the cable industry."
> 
> Added Klugman: "None of our product development is going to satellite."


So DirecTV and TiVo were both lying to us when they made this announcement the following day?

"EL SEGUNDO & ALVISO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 31, 2007--DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSETV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ:TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), will *develop a software upgrade *to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the Series2(TM) platform."

Please note I added the highlighting in the above quote.


----------



## Tugboat

Earl Bonovich said:


> Nope... not a M&A expert... I just stayed at a Holiday Inn express last night.
> 
> But do know a bit about common sense... If you think they are already "tinker" and working out deals... before the ink is dry... Do you know how many other companies out there would be pointing that out already?
> 
> But I guess you are the M&A expert...
> 
> Lets see where it all goes... But hey... If you are right... and that new MPEG-4 DTiVo comes down the pipe (be it 2,3,4 years from now)..
> 
> I'll say congrats... and let you know how all the HD channels have been for the previous years...
> 
> Promise one thing... seriously...
> In two years from now... when there is still no new deal... no new MPEG-4 DTiVo... you will at least come back, and visit...


I will, I definitely will. And I will be the first to admit the HR20 won the war. Though I am not dumping my HR20 and leaving Directv in the interim, since I have a year left on my "lease, so I, just like you, will be enjoying all those HD channels ... mysterious video blackouts, audio stuttering, lousy trick play and all.

On the other hand, if there is a Tivo-based HD DVR available via Directv come next September, I will make the switch to it and remain a Directv sub. If not, I'll consider my options and make the best decision I can make. But I won't blindly pledge my allegiance to Directv, that I do know.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> As pointed out... those hacks.. did leave to ability to enable LIFETIME without a legit subscription... so yes... there is a theft of service.


Please cite your source for that statement.

So far as I am aware, TiVo has never indicated in a SEC filing that "hacking" would have or even could have any impact on their corporate performance. They have noted such yet to happen things such as the proposed changes to the GPL may have an impact.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Other hacks, have also lead to the extraction of the video contents on the hard drive... which circumvents the digital encryption... which is a security and a violation of LAW.... So yes... there are plenty of bad things about how "wide open" the TiVo platform is.


There is a difference between decoding a video stream and decrypting a video stream. Did TiVo ever win judgement against anyone in this issue or has any law enforcement agency prosecuted this alleged violation?



Earl Bonovich said:


> If you put a terabyte drive in your HR20... No that really isn't a hack... but you did violate your lease by doing it.,


I've read the lease. Please cite the section which prohibits this.

If the unit were under warranty (it isn't), it might void the warranty.

It is well established consumer practice to enhance performance of owned and leased equipment through the replacement of, or addition to, the leased equipment.

If you lease a car, can you put "pimp" wheels and tires on it? Can you install an aftermarket stereo? Can you install aftermarket speakers? Can you install an aftermarket GPS unit?

Every major electronics retailer sells hard disks, DVD drives, memory, video cards, power supplies, etc. which consumers routinely install into their owned or leased equipment. Case law supports the consumers right to do so without voiding the warranty.

Changing the drive in the HR20 was quicker than changing a drive in my PC. Can you see a judge ruling in DirecTV's favor when the whole replacement process took less than five minutes including the time to hook up my wrist ground, work mat ground, and ground the unit?


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> TiVo only has "success" so far with hardware help build and design.
> COMCAST TiVo will be their first attempt to stuff their software, into a hardware platform... that wasn't designed for TiVo from the ground up.


I love your choice of words. "...stuff their software into a hardware platform.."

Do you know the size of the TiVo package as opposed to the Comcast package?
By what measure? Compiled code size? Total lines of code? Percent processor idle time?



Earl Bonovich said:


> As for your PC/Computer examples... that is like comparing Kumkwats to Grapefruits... they are both Citrus... but all the factors are not even remotely the same.


You're an Electrical Engineer and have studied the circuit design of the units in question and speak with Expert Witness authority?

The HR20 and TiVo and Comcast Motorola boxes are, first and foremost, computing platforms. They have CPU, memory, mass storage, and an OS.

Again, Linux has been ported to far more CPUs than any other, has been done so largely through the efforts of volunteers worldwide, and is, in fact, used by the Broadcom chip. Or are you saying Broadcom has mislead us by saying it is running a Linux kernel?



Earl Bonovich said:


> Software development is "far" from a science... sure it follows rules and procedures... it is just as much an "art" as a lot of things....


As I said, many paths to the same destination. Some solutions more elegant (TiVo) than others (HR20). That doesn't change the underlying fact that software is developed from an established, prefined concrete set of rules based on hard science. It doesn't matter whether I write assembler, C, Java, or HR20 Supersecret Special Compiler. All must compile to code the CPU understands.

The CPU in the HR20 is the same Broadcom CPU as in TiVo. The Broadcom has TiVo drivers. Both boxes have memory. Both boxes have mass storage (hard drives).

Tell me, in engineering terms, the specific differences between the HR20 and TiVo Series 3? Different [fill in the blank with some meaningful in terms of electrical engineering or software engineering.

A more proper analogy would be one is an orange grown in Calfornia and the other an orange grown in Florida.



Earl Bonovich said:


> You do have the choice... you can chose a different provider... and the DVR of your choice... that allone drive competition, and innovation.,


And again, TiVo as a "value added service provider" has a lower churn rate the DirecTV (a service provider).

That should tell you what?

Homework for you, as you are very close to DirecTV.

What portion of TiVo's churn rate is directly related to DirecTv replacing D* TiVo units with D* in-house units because D* has no replacement D* TiVo units to offer?


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> Need a pen?


No thanks.

I use Word with an integrated spell checker. 

It's nearly out of my system. I've written more letters to companies this week than I have in the past 10 years.

With the company I work for, if we mishandled customers as bad as several of the companies I've dealt with this week, we'd be back in bankruptcy instead the object of a buyout.

I enjoyed D* for more than 3 years until I decided to get HD. No complaints. One call for service for failed multiswitch. Programs recorded as expected...

I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the E* order taker would have gotten the order right and brought two VIP622s...


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> Please cite your source for that statement.


For one example: The main forum that worked to develop most of the hacks for the TiVo: www.dealdatabase.com

Is a thread specifically mentioning, the discussions...
http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55188&highlight=theft+service

But there is no "source to cite"... as it is a known fact in the community discussing the hacks... and the sites that want to stay running... forbid it's discussion.

So if you want to say it never happen, or doesn't exist.. well then you are nieve...



Chuck584 said:


> So far as I am aware, TiVo has never indicated in a SEC filing that "hacking" would have or even could have any impact on their corporate performance. They have noted such yet to happen things such as the proposed changes to the GPL may have an impact.


Doesn't mean it doesn't exist... they have taken measure to protect their property... Including altering the systems to stop the alterations (but people find a way around it)... including in their latest release... braking all the exisitng tools to expand the hard drive... (which was then easily adapted by the community



Chuck584 said:


> There is a difference between decoding a video stream and decrypting a video stream. Did TiVo ever win judgement against anyone in this issue or has any law enforcement agency prosecuted this alleged violation?


Again.. just because no one has been prosecuted.. doesn't make it illegal.
Do your homework on the hacks.... To enable extraction, you have to first in stall hacks that stops the encryption... at that is the violation... circumventing digital encryption... facts are facts...



Chuck584 said:


> I've read the lease. Please cite the section which prohibits this.
> 
> If the unit were under warranty (it isn't), it might void the warranty.


The moment you open the case... you are voiding yoru warranty... and in essence voiding your lease... try to expalin that to DirecTV when they bill you the $800, when the seal is broken... or the upgraded drive is still in there.



Chuck584 said:


> It is well established consumer practice to enhance performance of owned and leased equipment through the replacement of, or addition to, the leased equipment.
> 
> If you lease a car, can you put "pimp" wheels and tires on it? Can you install an aftermarket stereo? Can you install aftermarket speakers? Can you install an aftermarket GPS unit?


As I understand car leases... for the most part.... yes... you can't alter the vehical.. doesn't mean people don't. You an't install wheels and tires, or change the stereo or speakers... and if that GPS is mounted.. no you can't do that either... as you don't own the car..



Chuck584 said:


> Every major electronics retailer sells hard disks, DVD drives, memory, video cards, power supplies, etc. which consumers routinely install into their owned or leased equipment. Case law supports the consumers right to do so without voiding the warranty.


Name some other "leased" equipment out there?
On "leased" computers in businesses... you are not allowed to alter the equipment, by installing internal components... heck some don't even allow you to install the software, or external devices...

Can you knock out the wall of your "leased" apartment, because you wanted to make more space? Heck... you can't even paint the wall in a "leased" apartment or home...

Please cite your case law... where someone can alter a leased piece of property (which isn't there)...

So please... site your case law.



Chuck584 said:


> Changing the drive in the HR20 was quicker than changing a drive in my PC. Can you see a judge ruling in DirecTV's favor when the whole replacement process took less than five minutes including the time to hook up my wrist ground, work mat ground, and ground the unit?


Well great... you are a real dynamo with replacing hard drives then.

Actually... can you see your face, when you open the bill for $800, and having to prove that you didn't open it? and didn't damage anything? when you are asking for it to be replaced...


----------



## SBacklin

I still have my old Series2 TiVos. The HDDs were starting to make noise so I called in a few months back to get replacement ones sent out. They sent me the D* DVRs. While it was nice. Those boxes just have a serious lag problem and I hate not having the FF correction capability of the TiVos. I read the part of them adding new features. Does this mean they are keeping their relationship with TiVo going? I thought about going back to my TiVo units. Do you guys think that I will be able to request replacements that are the TiVo units? Standard Definition units.....I don't have HD TV sets yet. LOL


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Chuck584 said:


> I love your choice of words. "...stuff their software into a hardware platform.."
> 
> Do you know the size of the TiVo package as opposed to the Comcast package?
> By what measure? Compiled code size? Total lines of code? Percent processor idle time?


Yah... I kinda like stuff it in there...

Does it matter? you are trying to fit what ever the code is... into a system that was designed for it... thus you have to work with in those constraints.
You can't just recall them and add stuff to the boxes...

So yes... stuff is the term I sued



Chuck584 said:


> You're an Electrical Engineer and have studied the circuit design of the units in question and speak with Expert Witness authority?


Computer Engineer/Science.... so yes... I have studied circuit designs, and have to work with in constraints of a system... including have to introducing software not originally designed for the systems.



Chuck584 said:


> The HR20 and TiVo and Comcast Motorola boxes are, first and foremost, computing platforms. They have CPU, memory, mass storage, and an OS.
> 
> Again, Linux has been ported to far more CPUs than any other, has been done so largely through the efforts of volunteers worldwide, and is, in fact, used by the Broadcom chip. Or are you saying Broadcom has mislead us by saying it is running a Linux kernel?


Yes, they are computers... but they are not PCs.
They have specific hard designed and put together, for their specific intent.
The softare/hardware teams have to work together in dedicated systems...

Their CPU's are tiny in comparson to a PC's... memory is also limited, we are not talking GB's of memory here... storage and OS... yep... they all are there.

A++ for linux to run on multiple platforms... but Linux is just the OS... not the applications that run on top of it... and where am I saying anything that a Linux kernel is not running the Broadcom?



Chuck584 said:


> As I said, many paths to the same destination. Some solutions more elegant (TiVo) than others (HR20). That doesn't change the underlying fact that software is developed from an established, prefined concrete set of rules based on hard science. It doesn't matter whether I write assembler, C, Java, or HR20 Supersecret Special Compiler. All must compile to code the CPU understands.


How long have you been writing software?

Yes... at the end of the day, it get's translated to machine level, 0's and 1's ultimately... that part is science and concrete set of rules..

But that is not where programming done anymore... it is done on a higher level. And I will argue with you... that "programming" is as much an art as it is science...



Chuck584 said:


> The CPU in the HR20 is the same Broadcom CPU as in TiVo. The Broadcom has TiVo drivers. Both boxes have memory. Both boxes have mass storage (hard drives).
> 
> Tell me, in engineering terms, the specific differences between the HR20 and TiVo Series 3? Different [fill in the blank with some meaningful in terms of electrical engineering or software engineering.
> 
> A more proper analogy would be one is an orange grown in Calfornia and the other an orange grown in Florida.


So they share the same processor... do they share the video modulation?
Do they share the same ATSC tuners? or the same SATA chipset...
Do they share the same IR interface, and/or the same front panel interface..
Do they share the same DirecTV tuner interfaces...

or all the other chipsets inbetween...

So even if they share the same core processor... doesn't mean you can just drop it on there...



Chuck584 said:


> And again, TiVo as a "value added service provider" has a lower churn rate the DirecTV (a service provider).
> 
> That should tell you what?
> 
> Homework for you, as you are very close to DirecTV.
> 
> What portion of TiVo's churn rate is directly related to DirecTv replacing D* TiVo units with D* in-house units because D* has no replacement D* TiVo units to offer?


Not a clue in the world.. nor would I ask it, because I know I wouldn't get an answer...

Here is a question for you...
Where would TiVo be today... if it wasn't for the DirecTV subsribership?
How much of TiVo's subscriber base is still in DirecTV....

If TiVo is that amazing... the end-all b-all ... why are the SA's still lagging WAY behind in numbers?

The SA's have always worked with every carrier out there...
The new Digital boxes... are supposed to be the "alternative" choice for the cable-co's... what has there penetration been like?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

SBacklin said:


> I still have my old Series2 TiVos. The HDDs were starting to make noise so I called in a few months back to get replacement ones sent out. They sent me the D* DVRs. While it was nice. Those boxes just have a serious lag problem and I hate not having the FF correction capability of the TiVos. I read the part of them adding new features. Does this mean they are keeping their relationship with TiVo going? I thought about going back to my TiVo units. Do you guys think that I will be able to request replacements that are the TiVo units? Standard Definition units.....I don't have HD TV sets yet. LOL


FF correction, for the R15 it is going to be introduced in the next software version (expected next week)... It is already there in the HR20.

There are no new SD-DTiVo's being manufactured, and they are not sending out , if they have any left.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

> FF correction, for the R15 it is going to be introduced in the next software version (expected next week)...


Great news. Thanks for letting us know Earl. I must say I already like the R15 but it is getting better and better with every update.

Earl do you know if the next update will be for all of them?


----------



## SBacklin

Earl Bonovich said:


> FF correction, for the R15 it is going to be introduced in the next software version (expected next week)... It is already there in the HR20.
> 
> There are no new SD-DTiVo's being manufactured, and they are not sending out , if they have any left.


I hope this update next week has fixes for the overall leg in the system....especially when using the menus. It is really nice to hear that the FF correction capability is coming within a week. Is that a for sure time table?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

BMoreRavens said:


> Great news. Thanks for letting us know Earl. I must say I already like the R15 but it is getting better and better with every update.
> 
> Earl do you know if the next update will be for all of them?


It is expected.. but won't know for sure until late next week


----------



## Earl Bonovich

SBacklin said:


> I hope this update next week has fixes for the overall leg in the system....especially when using the menus. It is really nice to hear that the FF correction capability is coming within a week. Is that a for sure time table?


It is a good bet, that there is a CE planned for next week.
have you downloaded the latest? as it does a fantastic job of eliminating some of the lag...

But this really is for conversation over in the CE forum, not here in the TiVo thread.


----------



## bto4wd

Earl Bonovich said:


> The moment you open the case... you are voiding yoru warranty... and in essence voiding your lease... try to expalin that to DirecTV when they bill you the $800, when the seal is broken... or the upgraded drive is still in there.


Not quite. Based on:

D* Customer Agreement or the
D* Equipment Lease Addedum...

There is no such condition. You cannot "tamper" with the HR20 (and replacing the drive would be considered tampering) but no where does it mention in these two documents that you cannot crack the case.

You also mention the seal. It's not on all units. Both of the -100s I received have no seal. The refurb -700 I received does have a seal that states "Warranty VOID if broken or removed". So I could see how that would void the 90 day warranty. But no reference anywhere that opening the case violates the terms of the lease agreement.

If I've missed something, please point me to the correct reference.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> For one example: {references to alleged theft of service hacks removed - don't do it, won't do it, don't approve of it - Chuck}
> 
> But there is no "source to cite"... as it is a known fact in the community discussing the hacks... and the sites that want to stay running... forbid it's discussion.


But there is no "source to cite"... as it is a known fact in the community discussing the UFOs developing the HR20 ... and the sites that want to stay running... forbid it's discussion.

A known fact like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?

Or are you asserting somene has circumvented D*s encryption cards?



Earl Bonovich said:


> So if you want to say it never happen, or doesn't exist.. well then you are nieve...


Has anyone in the direct employ of D* ever said in a public forum that this is a fact and D* has suffered lost of revenue through theft of service?

URL or other published source please.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Doesn't mean it doesn't exist... they have taken measure to protect their property... Including altering the systems to stop the alterations (but people find a way around it)... including in their latest release... braking all the exisitng tools to expand the hard drive... (which was then easily adapted by the community


I'll have to accept your word for it. So far as I know neither TiVo nor D* has indicated this is an issue which would cause them harm or loss. That being said, I hardly read every press release and SEC filing by the companies so I may have just missed it.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Again.. just because no one has been prosecuted.. doesn't make it illegal.


I think you mistyped the above. 

If someone engaged in illegal activity was costing me money through theft of service I'd insist on the law being enforced. Or are you saying D* isn't properly looking out for shareholders by allowing theft of service as an acceptable cost of doing business?



Earl Bonovich said:


> Do your homework on the hacks.... To enable extraction, you have to first in stall hacks that stops the encryption... at that is the violation... circumventing digital encryption... facts are facts...


So TiVoToGo is an unauthorize hack?

Oh my...



Earl Bonovich said:


> The moment you open the case... you are voiding yoru warranty...


Agreed.

Moot point in any event. The warranty is only 90 days and that expired some time back.



Earl Bonovich said:


> and in essence voiding your lease...


That does not follow. Where in the lease are the warranty and lease bound together to form a third legal document?

Page and paragraph, please?

Your reply did not address the original question: Where in the lease does it prohibit installation of a larger hard drive?

Page and paragraph, please?

"Essence" is a legal term?

I prefer Lucinda Williams' _*Essence*_ myself.



Earl Bonovich said:


> try to expalin that to DirecTV when they bill you the $800, when the seal is broken...


After a rash break-ins in our rather secluded neigborhood, the local detective suggested we take photos of and / or mark the equipment and other valuables with an ID number as well as record the serial number, date of purchase, place of purchase, sales slip / invoice number, etc.

I relay that in preface to saying neither the original HR20-700 the installer brought (which failed while he was still here) nor the replacement HR20-100 which has worked reasonably well had any sort of seal or sticker. Photos were printed in duplicate while the installer worked, the installer initialed both sets and was given a set for the install record. Photos were noted on workorder. They were aware of this when I scheduled the appointment.

It may sound like overkill but more than a few times in the recent past there have been issues with various company's installers / contractors and installed equipment here in the Pittsburgh area.

Should my equipment be stolen or lost to some unforeseen event, there is an accurate record of the equipment here.

While I've not been a victim of burglary, I do know what neighbors have lost and the issues they have faced in replacing the stolen equipment.



Earl Bonovich said:


> or the upgraded drive is still in there.


I'm sure I'll forget and leave it in there if I leave D* or upgrade to D* TiVo HD.

Thank you for reminding me! 



Earl Bonovich said:


> As I understand car leases... for the most part.... yes... you can't alter the vehical.. doesn't mean people don't. You an't install wheels and tires, or change the stereo or speakers... and if that GPS is mounted.. no you can't do that either... as you don't own the car..


Here in PA we have mandatory state vehicle safey inspections. All those poor guys and gals who replace worn out tires must be breaking their lease.

Just kidding, different issue. Maintenance versus "industry standard value added enhancements".



Earl Bonovich said:


> Name some other "leased" equipment out there?
> On "leased" computers in businesses... you are not allowed to alter the equipment, by installing internal components... heck some don't even allow you to install the software, or external devices...


Depends on the lease. One can't do what the lease expressly prohibits. One can do what an ordinary, reasonable person may do if (s)he owns it is the way it works here in PA.

I'm no lawyer, but reluctantly admit to a friend or two who are lawyers.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Can you knock out the wall of your "leased" apartment, because you wanted to make more space? Heck... you can't even paint the wall in a "leased" apartment or home...


So if the roof leaks, and the lease holder can't be reached, you don't have the right or obligation to 1) minimize damage to your own property and 2) effect repairs to prevent further damage?

I don't think making improvements, something which adds value to the leased property, can in any way, shape, or form be construed as damaging it.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Please cite your case law... where someone can alter a leased piece of property (which isn't there)...


I'm neither a lawyer nor do I lease equipment. It is my understanding one may do with leased equipment what one may do if it were one's own property unless expressly prohibited by the lease.

Under your thinking, unless the lease expressly permits it, you can't do it. If you lease a car, does it have to spell out you may drive it on any day of the week in any month during any weather condition with / without passengers of your choice to any destination of your choice?



Earl Bonovich said:


> So please... site your case law.


When you show me where in the D* lease I am prohibited from adding to the value of the equipment while improving the performance of their equipment in the execution of it's designed function.

Or even that it breaks the lease to crack the case.

If I have broken the lease by opening the case, you've done it many times over, freely admitted it in this public forum, and posted photos of the flagrant and wanton violtion of the lease. If you are correct it's a violation of the lease to open the case...

Or not...:lol:



Earl Bonovich said:


> Well great... you are a real dynamo with replacing hard drives then.


How long did it take you to crack open the case of the HR20-100 to provide the photographs you've published here?

I'll bet it didn't take 60 seconds even without a power screwdriver.



Earl Bonovich said:


> Actually... can you see your face, when you open the bill for $800, and having to prove that you didn't open it? and didn't damage anything? when you are asking for it to be replaced...


You have it backward.

D* would have to prove I somehow damaged the equipment by 1) opening the case, 2) was less careful than a reasoably prudent person would be, and 3) the damage was a direct result of negligence on my part.


----------



## Chuck584

bto4wd said:


> Not quite. Based on:
> 
> D* Customer Agreement or the
> D* Equipment Lease Addedum...
> 
> There is no such condition. You cannot "tamper" with the HR20 (and replacing the drive would be considered tampering) but no where does it mention in these two documents that you cannot crack the case.
> 
> You also mention the seal. It's not on all units. Both of the -100s I received have no seal. The refurb -700 I received does have a seal that states "Warranty VOID if broken or removed". So I could see how that would void the 90 day warranty. But no reference anywhere that opening the case violates the terms of the lease agreement.
> 
> If I've missed something, please point me to the correct reference.


You are quite correct except "tamper" means:

1. interfere with and damage something: to interfere with something in a way that damages it or has harmful results

2. influence something corruptly: to try to corrupt or influence somebody or affect the outcome of something
tampering with the jury

[Mid-16th century. Probably variant of temper]

taken from Microsoft's Encarta Premium / Dictionary.

The intent of installing the larger capacity hard drive is to enhance the performance (more DVR storage space) of it's design function. Nothing was done which would interfere with and damage the HR20.


----------



## litzdog911

Choice is a good thing. I truly hope we see the day when customers can choose between a Tivo-based DirecTV DVR and a non-Tivo DVR. Everyone benefits. So the fact that DirecTV and Tivo have decided to give us Tivo DVR customers a few more features is a good thing. All this speculation and banter just brings me down. Let's get back on topic.


----------



## Chuck584

Earl Bonovich said:


> Yah... I kinda like stuff it in there...
> 
> Does it matter? you are trying to fit what ever the code is... into a system that was designed for it... thus you have to work with in those constraints.
> You can't just recall them and add stuff to the boxes...
> 
> So yes... stuff is the term I sued
> 
> Computer Engineer/Science.... so yes... I have studied circuit designs, and have to work with in constraints of a system... including have to introducing software not originally designed for the systems.


Been there, done that. 

And I'm glad you sued the term stuff! It keeps lawyers happy!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is better at thinking than typing!



Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes, they are computers... but they are not PCs.
> They have specific hard designed and put together, for their specific intent.
> The softare/hardware teams have to work together in dedicated systems...
> 
> Their CPU's are tiny in comparson to a PC's... memory is also limited, we are not talking GB's of memory here... storage and OS... yep... they all are there.


Agreed then. 

Most of the difficult stuff is done in hardware instead of software. That means 400mhz CPU is more than enough, a half gb memory coupled with swap space is luxurient in terms of the Linux kernel.



Earl Bonovich said:


> A++ for linux to run on multiple platforms... but Linux is just the OS... not the applications that run on top of it... and where am I saying anything that a Linux kernel is not running the Broadcom?


It's the OS which handles the lower level functions.

As an example, "Read Data Stream" is compiled to an instruction or instructions which are executed by the OS regardless of high level langauge used. No?



Earl Bonovich said:


> How long have you been writing software?


I'm going to date myself here.

The first computer which accepted my first feeble attempt at programming used genuine core memory. Earlier, in a high school physics class, we programmed an HP desktop (the size of a 20" CRT TV) calculator with 1k memory and RPN.

I nearly got thrown out of college for hacking a Honeywell 6023 (well, really a GE) runing GCOS. Back in those days we used punched cards which were fed into a hopper. If the electon's smiled on us, we'd get the job back hours later. I read the manual for the O/S, discovered an opening, and my jobs turned around just about as soon as the hopper emptied in the reader.

The first language I learned was Fortran, then RPGII, Assember for the System 360. Added Cobol, Basic, and C.

First home computer: Imsai built from kit purchased from an ad in Scientifc American in, well before Apple. 

First purchased fully assembled home computer: Ohio Scientific Challenger C1P purchased from Triangle Electronics in Ambridge PA in 1978.

First portable computer: Osborne 1 (original tan case with ribbon keyboard), low 300s serial number. I still have this, still works, still have BDS C compiler for it, Turbo Pascal, JRT Pascal, MS Basic compiler, Fortran, Cobol, among others.

Current computers? Lots of 'em.
Favorite: iMac dual core OS/X (of course)



Earl Bonovich said:


> Yes... at the end of the day, it get's translated to machine level, 0's and 1's ultimately... that part is science and concrete set of rules..


We're agreed!

I suspect many reading this exchange don't have a clue what a ROR instruction is, let alone what a RISC chip is.



Earl Bonovich said:


> But that is not where programming done anymore... it is done on a higher level.


Yes, it is.

Back in the days when I stated, shaving one machine cycle off a process repeated a million times was something we were expected to do because core time was limited and precious.

"Critical" subroutines were coded in assembler. I still have my 360/370 Assembler textbook by Stern Sager Stern.

In my youth, the "Holy Grail" of hacking was breaking into and assuming control of Partition 0 in a 360/370.



Earl Bonovich said:


> And I will argue with you... that "programming" is as much an art as it is science...


I agree. Many paths to the same point.

From my programming viewpoint, it's how efficiently one gets the expected done. It was the difference between a "bubble" sort and a "Shell Metznerr" sort. The difference between C and Assembly.



Earl Bonovich said:


> So they share the same processor... do they share the video modulation?
> Do they share the same ATSC tuners? or the same SATA chipset...
> Do they share the same IR interface, and/or the same front panel interface..
> Do they share the same DirecTV tuner interfaces...


We've agreed things are no longer done in assembler or other low level languages.

From my point of view:

Does the processor have TiVo or Linux drivers?
Does the video modulator have TiVo or Linux drivers?
Does the ATSC tuner have TiVo or Linux drivers?
Does the SATA chipset have TiVo or Linux drivers?
Does the IR chip / interface have TiVo or Linux drivers?
Does the chip implementing the DirecTV (fill in the blank) tuner interface have TiVo or Linux device drivers.

Since we're dealing with an OS, in this case the Linux kernel embedded in the Broadcom chipset, as long as drivers exist for TiVo or Linux, I would think the TiVo port would not require the same effort as, say, back in the 80s when HRC in Toronto was porting Unix to the Motorola 6800/68000 chipset.

First one had to write a C language compiler in assembly for the target chip. Then one compiled the kernel, shell, and utilites for Unix.

By comparison, writing software to do PVR is child's play. One is not writing everything down to the chip level, one is writing in a high level language to a mature well defined OS.



Earl Bonovich said:


> or all the other chipsets inbetween...


I didn't spend much time looking at the chipset on the HR20-100.

Do you know if there are any ASICs unique to the HR20?

If not, then it becomes the question, again, of whether drivers exist for TiVo or Linux.

If there is / are unique ASICs, it would take time (and talent) to write drivers. But not so much if the driver is written in a high level language.



Earl Bonovich said:


> So even if they share the same core processor... doesn't mean you can just drop it on there...


It is, however, much easier than starting from scratch.

For the sake of argument, let's say there are 1,000 function calls or subroutines used by TiVo.
Let's say 750 of them are calls or subroutines made to chips which already have Linux support (the vast majority of chips out there).
Let's say another 100 don't have linux drivers but do have TiVo drivers because the TiVo came first and the chipset manufacturer wanted to lure TiVo.

That leaves just 150 functions or subroutines which need coded from scratch.

Same chips, writing the PVR from scratch.
750 already have Linux support.
250 which need written in house.

TiVo's programmers have a demonstrated ability to write on different chipsets (as evidenced by S2, S3, Comcast).

In house programmers?

Wait, in house can draw on News Corp's experience.

Or not.

Did they use R15 programmers on the HR20?



Earl Bonovich said:


> Here is a question for you...
> Where would TiVo be today... if it wasn't for the DirecTV subsribership?
> How much of TiVo's subscriber base is still in DirecTV....


Last question first:
As of the TiVo's May 30th press release, http://tivo.com/assets/pdfs/press/_148.pdf, the figure is 2,615,000.

TiVo and DirecTV had a mutually beneficial arrangement. DirecTV needed a DVR, TiVo had it to offer.

Now let me ask, where would DirecTV be today if they did not have a DVR back then?



Earl Bonovich said:


> If TiVo is that amazing... the end-all b-all ... why are the SA's still lagging WAY behind in numbers?
> 
> The SA's have always worked with every carrier out there...
> The new Digital boxes... are supposed to be the "alternative" choice for the cable-co's... what has there penetration been like?


TiVo has always been a "value added" service offered by the carrier or offered directly to customers for use with a carrier. TiVo is neither carrier nor content provider.

Honestly, do you think it's mere coincidence DirecTV signs a three year extension with TiVo then they go further and annonounce software upgrades for D* TiVo in the same time frame Comcast accepts the TiVo software and makes plans to roll out C TiVo?

If D* and TiVo had not agreed to the extension, wouldn't D* shut off all the D* TiVos and had to offer "downgrades" the the R15?

That's 2,615,000 of D* best customers (want to argue that D* TiVo subscribers have a higher average monthly bill than other subscribers) who would either stay with the R15 or see Comcast offering TiVo in a nice package.

I would hope the D* / TiVo relationship continues and flourishes. Customers can only win in that environment.

I would very much like to see an HD TiVo. My world will not end if that never happens.

Failing that, I'd like my HR20's bugs worked out. It's been a year now and D* has no recourse.

If Tivo had developed it under contract, D* could sue the term stuff out of them. :lol:


----------



## bonscott87

Tugboat said:


> See you are sticking to your "Tivo will have no place at Directv once 2010 hits" mentality.


Huh? Must have me confused with someone else. DirecTivo's will still function to infinity until their hard drives die. Just like Ultimate TV's are still functioning just fine to this day nearly 5 years since they died out.

The contract that is thru 2010 is for *TIVO* to continue to support the units. In other words, software updates and bug fixes.  If DirecTV deems they still need Tivo around for bug fixes beyond 2010 then they will sign another such support contract. Simple as that.


----------



## litzdog911

Chuck needs to take a chill pill.


----------



## anubys

litzdog911 said:


> Chuck needs to take a chill pill.


how many people read 1 page-long posts with multiple quotes and arguments?

Both the HR10 and the HR20 have their good points and bad points...if we have some competition to produce the best mpeg4 DVR, I welcome the development (or the hope for it)...


----------



## litzdog911

anubys said:


> how many people read 1 page-long posts with multiple quotes and arguments?
> 
> Both the HR10 and the HR20 have their good points and bad points...if we have some competition to produce the best mpeg4 DVR, I welcome the development (or the hope for it)...


+1


----------



## Chuck584

bonscott87 said:


> The contract that is thru 2010 is for *TIVO* to continue to support the units. In other words, software updates and bug fixes.  If DirecTV deems they still need Tivo around for bug fixes beyond 2010 then they will sign another such support contract. Simple as that.


I believe the contract extension through 2010 is to offer TiVo service. Had D* and TiVo not agreed to continue the contract, the D* would most likely have to replace all the D* TiVo boxes.

The contract announced on July 31st is for continued maintenance and updates to D* TiVos.


----------



## Chuck584

litzdog911 said:


> Chuck needs to take a chill pill.


Chuck needs:

an HR20 with DLB

an HR20 with working Title Autorecord

an HR20 with the ability to set "channels I receive" to what I actually subscribe to instead of everything D* has to offer

an HR20 which will properly record Season Passes (er, Series Links)

an HR20 with an improved "Search by" function

an HR20 which doesn't decide to delete all content overnight

or

An HD TiVo box


----------



## Chuck584

anubys said:


> how many people read 1 page-long posts with multiple quotes and arguments?


People who have lost the entire contents of their HR20 overnight, thus have free time on their hands with no recorded shows to watch?


----------



## Drew2k

Chuck584 said:


> Chuck needs:
> 
> an HR20 with DLB
> 
> an HR20 with working Title Autorecord
> 
> an HR20 with the ability to set "channels I receive" to what I actually subscribe to instead of everything D* has to offer
> 
> an HR20 which will properly record Season Passes (er, Series Links)
> 
> an HR20 with an improved "Search by" function
> 
> an HR20 which doesn't decide to delete all content overnight
> 
> or
> 
> An HD TiVo box


Then Chuck should spend $599 (or more) and buy a Series 3, and retnt cable cards from his cable company and pay for whatever package gets him close to what DIRECTV provides.

Or maybe instead of buying the Series 3, Chuck should buy the new lower-cost standalone TiVo HD DVR and be prepared to put up with the start-up issues that TiVo's new DVR is experiencing.


----------



## litzdog911

Drew2k said:


> Then Chuck should spend $599 (or more) and buy a Series 3, and retnt cable cards from his cable company and pay for whatever package gets him close to what DIRECTV provides.
> 
> Or maybe instead of buying the Series 3, Chuck should buy the new lower-cost standalone TiVo HD DVR and be prepared to put up with the start-up issues that TiVo's new DVR is experiencing.


+1

It's quite clear that Chuck will never be happy with his HR20.


----------



## bto4wd

Drew2k said:


> Or maybe instead of buying the Series 3, Chuck should buy the new lower-cost standalone TiVo HD DVR and be prepared to put up with the start-up issues that TiVo's new DVR is experiencing.


Are you speaking from experience here Drew? Or are you just stating there are issues with new Tivos not being a new Tivo owner?


----------



## Chuck584

Drew2k said:


> Or maybe instead of buying the Series 3, Chuck should buy the new lower-cost standalone TiVo HD DVR and be prepared to put up with the start-up issues that TiVo's new DVR is experiencing.


Chuck bought a TiVo HD. Chuck had difficulty finding one as all the local BB and CC stores sold out of first shipment. The purchase and activation mitigated the annoyance at the HR losing everything.

With just short of 4 days with it, the single startup issue was the MS cablecard as in locating and having it installed.

No issues with TiVo performance whatsoever. It's working quite nicely.

Side by side comparison of same shows recorded from D* and cable in HD reveal no difference I can see.

SD shows on D* and digital cable reveal no difference I can see.

The first showing of last night's 4400 on USA suffered rain fade on D*
USA is on analog cable, didn't look as good as D* (until storm related breakup).

Nice feature, TiVo HD will work with Verizon FIOS too. Shortly I'll have a third provider to compare.

Don't have VOD with cable with TiVo hd. Won't have VOD with FIOS either. Don't have VOD with D* either.

Fear change, accept change, or embrace change.


----------



## Chuck584

litzdog911 said:


> +1
> 
> It's quite clear that Chuck will never be happy with his HR20.


The HR20 has been out for a year. It still has unresolved issues.

As an example, I saw the ad for the show Masters of Science Fiction. I did a keyword search for the title. It didn't find it (this was back in June). I set Autorecord. It never found it. My D* TiVo did.

As an example, I have a Series Link for Star Trek: Enterprise on HDN (79). The Series Link is set to:
Episode Type: Both
Keep at Most: All
Keep Until: Disk Full
Start: 1 min Early
Stop: On-time

It has stopped recording the series. In the History, it says: Canceled. I hit the Select key to see the reason it is canceled: This showing is over. Or says it was partially recorded (not) and "(13)

Others have replicated this issue, as well is issues with Blue Clues and other shows. D* is aware of the issue.

This has not been my experience with TiVo from the first day they went on sale eight years ago.

The only time I've had issues with TiVo scheduling is when the guide data is wrong.

If they ever get the HR20's issues resolved, my only complaint would be lack of DLB.

I would add that when inquired about D* HD and the HR20, the sales reps, two of them, assured me DLB was a priority and would be implemented "sooner rather than later" and "absolutely by next football season".

Earl has stated DLB is not in the near future and isn't in active development.

You may be happy with "mostly working" and it may be adequate for your needs, it is your money.

I like to get what I pay for. But that's just me.


----------



## Drew2k

bto4wd said:


> Are you speaking from experience here Drew? Or are you just stating there are issues with new Tivos not being a new Tivo owner?


Visit the Series 3 HD forum at TiVo Community Forum and you will find lots of threads from people having problems with the new HD DVR.


----------



## anubys

Chuck584 said:


> *Chuck* likes to get what *Chuck* pays for. But that's just *Chuck*.


FYP :lol:

I don't think many people disagree with your points...but we also recognize that the HR20 has improved on the HD-Tivo in quite a few areas and also remember the growing pains the HD-Tivo had (and still has!)...the HR20 is a first generation unit but is getting support and updates and -- should this continue -- will surpass the HD-Tivo in all aspects fairly soon...


----------



## bidger

This thread makes me want to up Chuck.



bto4wd said:


> Are you speaking from experience here Drew? Or are you just stating there are issues with new Tivos not being a new Tivo owner?


Does it squash your belief that TiVo walks on water and its sh*t don't stink to hear that just like every other electronic device it can have issues out of the box? Drew's a long timer @ TCF so it's not unusual he'd be aware of something like that. I know it from the TiVo HD thread @ AVS Forum that there are issues with the Scientific-Atlanta Cable Cards. My take? It's only a big deal for those customers and if there were SA CC customers involved in the beta testing, I'd drop them from the beta list if I were TiVo.

I can respect the people who put their money where their mouth is and followed TiVo because they felt it was that important to them. I never felt that way and I can't really say that TiVo is the best DVR platform out there. If I could pop a DIREC*TV* tuner card in my MCE 2005 PC, that would be the perfect DVR solution...for me, not for everyone else. But, if I did feel TiVo with more HD was a _must have_, I'd shell out for one of the two S3s rather than expect DIREC*TV* to provide it. If I found at some future date that there was a MPEG 4-capable TiVo, I could sell the S3 and recoup a good share of my investment. But Hell, if I really loved TiVo that much I'd probably keep it. Than again, some folks have initiative and drive and will go after what they want and some folks expect someone to bring it to them.


----------



## Chuck584

anubys said:


> FYP :lol:
> 
> I don't think many people disagree with your points...but we also recognize that the HR20 has improved on the HD-Tivo in quite a few areas and also remember the growing pains the HD-Tivo had (and still has!)...the HR20 is a first generation unit but is getting support and updates and -- should this continue -- will surpass the HD-Tivo in all aspects fairly soon...


I haven't owned an HD TiVo prior to the purchase of the new "TiVo HD". I'll accept your word that the HR20 improves on HD TiVo as you have experience with it and I do not. I've owned S1 TiVos and S2 standalone and D TiVo.

I stumbled across DBSTalk looking for a way of turning off the "Blue Ring" and three failed calls to D* customer support in search of a way to shut it off. I had read the manual but didn't read each "key description" in the diagrams. That was in April.

Then I began to experience Scheduler problems and remembered this forum after again running into no help at D* customer support. They did offer to swap out the box but it wasn't (and isn't) a hardware issue.

That's when I stumbled across the DLB poll and realized Sales had just plain misrepresented the future of DLB.

As someone who wrote his first computer program close to 35 years ago, it irks me to see the D* HR20 apologists who claim DVR programming is powerful magic on mystical hardware shrouded in holy mystery.

It's not.

Earl will correct me if I'm wrong - there are no D* propriatary chips excluding the access card. The visible chips are "off the shelf commodity" units used by other companies too. The Broadcom chip is used in at least one TiVo.

Which means the problems are all software issues. And if software is more "art" than "science", D* ought to pony up and hire some masters. Finger-painting just won't do on a company's flagship product unless the product is designed and markerted to children.


----------



## Chuck584

bidger said:


> This thread makes me want to up Chuck.


Now now, play nice.



bidger said:


> ... If I could pop a DIREC*TV* tuner card in my MCE 2005 PC, that would be the perfect DVR solution...for me, not for everyone else.


That would be my ideal DVR with the exception of attaching a dual tuner DIREC*TV* box to the 1394 port on my iMac.



bidger said:


> But, if I did feel TiVo with more HD was a _must have_, I'd shell out for one of the two S3s rather than expect DIREC*TV* to provide it.


I bought one of the new TiVo HDs. I am running it on Comcast against the HR20 on D*. I'm expecting delivery of another HD Comcast DVR option this morning. Shortly I hope to also evaluate the TiVo HD on FIOS as well.

At some point I'll make the decision on which DVR / service provider best serves my needs. The decision will be based solely on the performance of the DVR and not a love or hatred of the content provider.


----------



## bidger

Chuck584 said:


> I bought one of the new TiVo HDs. I am running it on Comcast against the HR20 on D*. I'm expecting delivery of another HD Comcast DVR option this morning. Shortly I hope to also evaluate the TiVo HD on FIOS as well.


I think that's for the best since, as has been stated, the likelihood of you being satisfied with the HR20 isn't very high. I commend you for taking action and wish you luck.


----------



## SilverShadow

Chuck584 said:


> Oh, and the HR20 anticipated my installation of a larger HD overnight by deleting all the content on the "stock" drive. My TiVo's have always steadfastly held onto their content even when they knew a drive transplant was scheduled. Very thoughtless of my TiVos not to erase the content like the HR20 has.
> 
> I have lots of time to type because the HR20 is busy recording two HD streams I'm uninterested in to make sure it's an undocumented software feature and not a hardware problem.


I have to say, Chuck, your posts crack me up! Thanks for the entertainment.  BTW, I'm with you on the whole TiVo-based receiver. Just repeatedly rock solid for nearly all users -- HD20 sure seems to be the opposite.

I'm SERIOUSLY itching to upgrade to HD, but lack of dual live buffers and the massive reports of flakiness with the HR20 are holding me back. I'd certainly be willing to pay significant $ for HR10 equivalent that can decode MPEG-4...

It appears very obvious to me that the vast majority of HR20 users (that have anything to compare to) generally have a dislike (or even hatred) for the receiver -- sans a few posts. Anyone have any concrete specifics to share on why/how they they like the HR20 compared to DirecTiVos? (Sans the obvious issue about upcoming HD conent) Any of you HR20 users that subscribe to sports packages and watch multiple games, simultaneously?

SilverShadow


----------



## Earl Bonovich

SilverShadow -... FYI it HR20 and HR10 (not HD) The "H" in the model number denotes the High-Def....

To your last question (what concrete specificts to share)
Since I have owned at least 1 of every series of DTiVo....


Single Channel Overlap recording, the ability to overlap back to back recordings and not have to use the second tuner.
Single button Record / Double Button Series LInk (R or R-R)
Quick Delete (and now quick Delete of a folder) DASH-DASH
Significantly improved speed in reordering prioritizer entries
Quick Menu, instead of everything being a full menu
1 Line guide, to quickly see what is on next... when watching live (also makes it real easy to setup a following show to record, when combined with 1 button record
Caller-ID on screen
Space Indicator
Picture In "screens"; The picture in the top right corner of the screen when accessing most of the menu's of the system.
SWM/Single Cable Support (that is more along of the technology as with the MPEG-4)
Ability to output multiple video connections. I can record to a DVD-Record in 480-I; while still watching live TV in HD
It is new, but I am using it a lot now... Group playback of an entire folder. 
The interactive content... Active (for one) Weather, is a quick look... and some of ther other options in there are okay
Quick delete from ToDo list; Very handy when I am looking at shows that I have told to record duplicates of (like Avatar) and I want to get rid of them
The networking and Media Play features... and the future plans for that network connection
Different sort options in the MyPlaylist (TiVo has some, but not all of them)
Guide... Jump to Date/Time (someone has told me it is there in TiVo, but in 6+ years of using DTiVos... I never knew it was there, or used it... not sur e if it is the same or not)
On occasion, I have found the Guide Category search to be handy when looking for something to record
The 90 minute buffer is very handy, as it will usually cover an entire show.
The eSATA support is very nice, as I can tear down my TiVo upgrade PC... as you can just add the external drive to have larger capacity, rather then pay for a pre-configured drive, or go through the steps to do it... aka... I can send an email link to my friends on what to buy, instead of scheduling a day/time for them to come over for me to do the hardware upgrade
Works with my VoIP connection, So i regained the ability to purchase PPV via remote.... and got rid of the annoying "haven't called" message
The system not nagging me... asking permisson to record on the 2nd/background tuner

Those are off the top of my head, I am sure I am missing something...

As for watching two sporting events at the same time...
Never something I really do.... I watch my "primary" game (the Bears)... and the others... I may flip to during a commercial or something.... just to see what is going on.... but I have always recorded the game I want to watch...
Just to account for anything that may occur.

With sports tickers constantly going over the screen, it is fairly easy to keep upto date with what is going on in other games..... If I have a MUST watch two at once... I pull out the other TV, or have it going on a gamecast on the PC in the living room...


----------



## bto4wd

Earl Bonovich said:


> SilverShadow -... FYI it HR20 and HR10 (not HD) The "H" in the model number denotes the High-Def....
> 
> To your last question (what concrete specificts to share)
> Since I have owned at least 1 of every series of DTiVo....
> 
> 
> Single Channel Overlap recording, the ability to overlap back to back recordings and not have to use the second tuner.
> Single button Record / Double Button Series LInk (R or R-R)
> Quick Delete (and now quick Delete of a folder) DASH-DASH
> Significantly improved speed in reordering prioritizer entries
> Quick Menu, instead of everything being a full menu
> 1 Line guide, to quickly see what is on next... when watching live (also makes it real easy to setup a following show to record, when combined with 1 button record
> Caller-ID on screen
> Space Indicator
> Picture In "screens"; The picture in the top right corner of the screen when accessing most of the menu's of the system.
> SWM/Single Cable Support (that is more along of the technology as with the MPEG-4)
> Ability to output multiple video connections. I can record to a DVD-Record in 480-I; while still watching live TV in HD
> It is new, but I am using it a lot now... Group playback of an entire folder.
> The interactive content... Active (for one) Weather, is a quick look... and some of ther other options in there are okay
> Quick delete from ToDo list; Very handy when I am looking at shows that I have told to record duplicates of (like Avatar) and I want to get rid of them
> The networking and Media Play features... and the future plans for that network connection
> Different sort options in the MyPlaylist (TiVo has some, but not all of them)
> Guide... Jump to Date/Time (someone has told me it is there in TiVo, but in 6+ years of using DTiVos... I never knew it was there, or used it... not sur e if it is the same or not)
> On occasion, I have found the Guide Category search to be handy when looking for something to record
> The 90 minute buffer is very handy, as it will usually cover an entire show.
> The eSATA support is very nice, as I can tear down my TiVo upgrade PC... as you can just add the external drive to have larger capacity, rather then pay for a pre-configured drive, or go through the steps to do it... aka... I can send an email link to my friends on what to buy, instead of scheduling a day/time for them to come over for me to do the hardware upgrade
> Works with my VoIP connection, So i regained the ability to purchase PPV via remote.... and got rid of the annoying "haven't called" message
> The system not nagging me... asking permisson to record on the 2nd/background tuner
> 
> Those are off the top of my head, I am sure I am missing something...
> 
> As for watching two sporting events at the same time...
> Never something I really do.... I watch my "primary" game (the Bears)... and the others... I may flip to during a commercial or something.... just to see what is going on.... but I have always recorded the game I want to watch...
> Just to account for anything that may occur.
> 
> With sports tickers constantly going over the screen, it is fairly easy to keep upto date with what is going on in other games..... If I have a MUST watch two at once... I pull out the other TV, or have it going on a gamecast on the PC in the living room...


Earl, you can continue to list the fancy smancy features of the HR20...and that list is impressive. But one of my units missed the first 5 minutes of the news last night...not impressive. It recorded 25 minutes of that showing. No error in history, no other show recording, no one watching live tv. It was in standby. So regardless of the ability of the HR20 to properly wipe ones butt, if it can't reliably record a show it doesn't meet the basic definition of a DVR...IMO.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

bto4wd said:


> Earl, you can continue to list the fancy smancy features of the HR20...and that list is impressive. But one of my units missed the first 5 minutes of the news last night...not impressive. It recorded 25 minutes of that showing. No error in history, no other show recording, no one watching live tv. It was in standby. So regardless of the ability of the HR20 to properly wipe ones butt, if it can't reliably record a show it doesn't meet the basic definition of a DVR...IMO.


Just about everything I listed above... is the same for everyone... (VoIP is one that may not apply to everyone)

Your 5 minutes, is an issue that you are having with one of your boxes... and is not consistant accross the entire platform. As for why your's did that... no clue... 
And yes... needs to be something fixed, or at least identified to why it is occuring.

On the flip side... I didn't list in that list, that it caught ever episode of 24... something that my HR10-250 never was able to do in the time I was using it... each time in each of the seasons, I would have at least one case that the HR10-250 locked up... and since I was never home on Monday's... didn't know till I sat to watch down.

Didn't happen often, but it did.... Dose that mean the HR10-250 doesn't meet the basic definition of the DVR?

As for the HR20... I can only speek for the system I have... and the one I have had for over a year now... I haven't had any recording start late, for unexplainable reasons... I haven't had that issue, and I have lost track of the number of hours I have recorded, and watched on the same HR20 that I did the review on 1 year ago... next week.


----------



## robnielsen

Earl Bonovich said:


> SilverShadow -... FYI it HR20 and HR10 (not HD) The "H" in the model number denotes the High-Def....
> 
> To your last question (what concrete specificts to share)
> Since I have owned at least 1 of every series of DTiVo....
> 
> Single Channel Overlap recording, the ability to overlap back to back recordings and not have to use the second tuner.
> Single button Record / Double Button Series LInk (R or R-R)
> Quick Delete (and now quick Delete of a folder) DASH-DASH
> Significantly improved speed in reordering prioritizer entries
> Quick Menu, instead of everything being a full menu
> 1 Line guide, to quickly see what is on next... when watching live (also makes it real easy to setup a following show to record, when combined with 1 button record
> Caller-ID on screen
> Space Indicator
> Picture In "screens"; The picture in the top right corner of the screen when accessing most of the menu's of the system.
> SWM/Single Cable Support (that is more along of the technology as with the MPEG-4)
> Ability to output multiple video connections. I can record to a DVD-Record in 480-I; while still watching live TV in HD
> It is new, but I am using it a lot now... Group playback of an entire folder.
> The interactive content... Active (for one) Weather, is a quick look... and some of ther other options in there are okay
> Quick delete from ToDo list; Very handy when I am looking at shows that I have told to record duplicates of (like Avatar) and I want to get rid of them
> The networking and Media Play features... and the future plans for that network connection
> Different sort options in the MyPlaylist (TiVo has some, but not all of them)
> Guide... Jump to Date/Time (someone has told me it is there in TiVo, but in 6+ years of using DTiVos... I never knew it was there, or used it... not sur e if it is the same or not)
> On occasion, I have found the Guide Category search to be handy when looking for something to record
> The 90 minute buffer is very handy, as it will usually cover an entire show.
> The eSATA support is very nice, as I can tear down my TiVo upgrade PC... as you can just add the external drive to have larger capacity, rather then pay for a pre-configured drive, or go through the steps to do it... aka... I can send an email link to my friends on what to buy, instead of scheduling a day/time for them to come over for me to do the hardware upgrade
> Works with my VoIP connection, So i regained the ability to purchase PPV via remote.... and got rid of the annoying "haven't called" message
> The system not nagging me... asking permisson to record on the 2nd/background tuner
> Those are off the top of my head, I am sure I am missing something...
> 
> As for watching two sporting events at the same time...
> Never something I really do.... I watch my "primary" game (the Bears)... and the others... I may flip to during a commercial or something.... just to see what is going on.... but I have always recorded the game I want to watch...
> Just to account for anything that may occur.
> 
> With sports tickers constantly going over the screen, it is fairly easy to keep upto date with what is going on in other games..... If I have a MUST watch two at once... I pull out the other TV, or have it going on a gamecast on the PC in the living room...


I for one am a HR20 fan. I replaced my HR10 with a second HR20. One big feature that HR20 has over the HR10 is the ability to change scheduling on short notice. I've seen same day changes for programming for cancelled shows, or impromptu presidential broadcasts.


----------



## bonscott87

* Multiple Delete at once (in the Playlist hit menu and then mark and delete, pick and choose what to delete all at once)


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> [*]Guide... Jump to Date/Time (someone has told me it is there in TiVo, but in 6+ years of using DTiVos... I never knew it was there, or used it... not sur e if it is the same or not)


I know how to do that in Tivo and would love to know how in the HR20 !

I love Tivo, but I have to admit that the HR20 - with the exception of the DLB - is far better than HD-Tivo was a year into production...the speed, the esata, the multiple outputs, the native support (remember all the cries about HD-Tivo not having it?!)...makes the HR20 a really good unit...

...and it's getting regular updates and improvements are happening quickly...

and if you have problems, send it back and have them send you a new one!


----------



## Earl Bonovich

anubys said:


> I know how to do that in Tivo and would love to know how in the HR20 !
> 
> I love Tivo, but I have to admit that the HR20 - with the exception of the DLB - is far better than HD-Tivo was a year into production...the speed, the esata, the multiple outputs, the native support (remember all the cries about HD-Tivo not having it?!)...makes the HR20 a really good unit...
> 
> ...and it's getting regular updates and improvements are happening quickly...
> 
> and if you have problems, send it back and have them send you a new one!


You tell me how to do it on the TiVo... I'll tell you how on the DVR+

Okay... me first.

When in the GUIDE: Hit Menu
Then you have Date/Time ... pick the date, then the time.


----------



## philslc

Earl Bonovich said:


> When in the GUIDE: Hit Menu
> Then you have Date/Time ... pick the date, then the time.


Bless You Earl.


----------



## Drew2k

To jump to date in TiVo, hit INFO in the guide and scoll down to the date field. Then arrow left or right as needed to change dates. Arrow down one more field to time to change times.

Almost equivalent in steps to how the HR20 handles it, but I like selecting the dates better in the HR20 because the guide is still visible behind the menu.


----------



## bonscott87

And to note that you'll find all kinds of hidden gems by hitting menu in certain areas like search and the guide. 

* In the guide, left over the channel number and hit Info. It will load the entire 2 weeks guide data up for that channel. With one touch record you can setup a dozen movies on HBO to record in about a minute. Waaaaayyyyy faster then a Tivo.


----------



## anubys

Drew2k said:


> To jump to date in TiVo, hit INFO in the guide and scoll down to the date field. Then arrow left or right as needed to change dates. Arrow down one more field to time to change times.
> 
> Almost equivalent in steps to how the HR20 handles it, but I like selecting the dates better in the HR20 because the guide is still visible behind the menu.


he didn't ask you Mr. Buttinski! 

interesting, I hit Enter in guide, not INFO...but that's basically how I do it...


----------



## anubys

bonscott87 said:


> And to note that you'll find all kinds of hidden gems by hitting menu in certain areas like search and the guide.
> 
> * In the guide, left over the channel number and hit Info. It will load the entire 2 weeks guide data up for that channel. With one touch record you can setup a dozen movies on HBO to record in about a minute. Waaaaayyyyy faster then a Tivo.


now this is fantastic...if I can do that in the HR20, I might vote for it over the Tivo even without the DLB :up:


----------



## Drew2k

anubys said:


> he didn't ask you Mr. Buttinski!
> 
> interesting, I hit Enter in guide, not INFO...but that's basically how I do it...




You know what's funny? I have pressed INFO since I had my first HR10 in 2003, and never noticed it says, "Press ENTER for Guide Options". And INFO has worked the entire time!


----------



## Chuck584

SilverShadow said:


> I have to say, Chuck, your posts crack me up! Thanks for the entertainment.  BTW, I'm with you on the whole TiVo-based receiver. Just repeatedly rock solid for nearly all users -- HD20 sure seems to be the opposite.
> 
> I'm SERIOUSLY itching to upgrade to HD, but lack of dual live buffers and the massive reports of flakiness with the HR20 are holding me back. I'd certainly be willing to pay significant $ for HR10 equivalent that can decode MPEG-4...
> 
> It appears very obvious to me that the vast majority of HR20 users (that have anything to compare to) generally have a dislike (or even hatred) for the receiver -- sans a few posts. Anyone have any concrete specifics to share on why/how they they like the HR20 compared to DirecTiVos? (Sans the obvious issue about upcoming HD conent) Any of you HR20 users that subscribe to sports packages and watch multiple games, simultaneously?
> 
> SilverShadow


While I have issues with the HR20, were I in your shoes, I'd go ahead and get one to enjoy HD while we wait for something better. These days the HR20 can be had for shipping by threatening to jump ship to another carrier.

When I installed the larger hard drive, a very simple exercise in the HR20-100, the first thing I noticed was the SATA cable wasn't fully seated on the stock drive. While I doubt that was the cause of the mass deletion, it could be.

With the new drive, a Hitachi terabyte model, everything seems fine.

Again, don't let the problems with the HR20 dissaude you from getting HD. Just keep a D* TiVo or two hooked up and recording in parallel. That way you only risk missing an HD program.

To be honest, I was quite happy with the HR20 while thinking DLB was in the pipeline for very near term delivery. It's the aspect of football season with SLB which honked me off. Now with D* and TiVo playing nice, hope is alive for something wondeful in the HD world.


----------



## SilverShadow

Chuck584 said:


> To be honest, I was quite happy with the HR20 while thinking DLB was in the pipeline for very near term delivery. It's the aspect of football season with SLB which honked me off. Now with D* and TiVo playing nice, hope is alive for something wondeful in the HD world.


See, that is my primary concern also. NFL Sunday Ticket with no DLB... :nono2: Also would be frustrating when there is breaking news. I can honestly say I use DLB every day. Anyone have any insight as to why this feature, so important to so many sports package subscribers, is still missing so long after release of the product?


----------



## bonscott87

SilverShadow said:


> See, that is my primary concern also. NFL Sunday Ticket with no DLB... :nono2: Also would be frustrating when there is breaking news. I can honestly say I use DLB every day. Anyone have any insight as to why this feature, so important to so many sports package subscribers, is still missing so long after release of the product?


There is no answer to your question but there is a VERY large DLB thread in the HR20 forum where you can read all about it for the next 3 days. 

As for DLB and Sunday Ticket. When I first got HD 4 (almost 5) years ago now there were no HD DVRs. Thus no DLB. After the first couple weeks I got used to it. I'm so used to not having it now that last year with the HR20 I still didn't miss it. I honestly just don't need it. If I need it that bad I have 2 HD receivers that I can use for DLB in a way with just the press of a button on my universal remote.

But that's just me and I recommend you head over to the DLB thread. Non sense rehashing it all here.


----------



## anubys

SilverShadow said:


> I can honestly say I use DLB every day. Anyone have any insight as to why this feature,


those who know the reason, won't share it with the rest of us...all we're told is that this is not a priority for DirecTV and that they are not working on it...


----------



## EricG

jal said:


> Directv: Bring back TIVO!


I wish that were enough to make it happen!


----------



## ApK

spanishannouncetable said:


> The software update will likely enable the USB ports on S2 models,


Certainly would be nice, but do you have ANY reason to think that it's likely or, or are you just wishing out loud?

I got the DTV email concerning these features today. I'm very pleased! More for the sake of knowing my DTivo has a future than for the actual features, but that's nice, too. If the remotes scheduling in fact doesn't need a phone line, I may finally cancel my SA S2 and activate the R10 I have on standby instead...

ApK


----------



## SilverShadow

bonscott87 said:


> There is no answer to your question but there is a VERY large DLB thread in the HR20 forum where you can read all about it for the next 3 days.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks... Have already been there... Read the ENTIRE thread before posting here. Just thought someone here might have more of an inside scoop.
> 
> Thanks for the comments. Took the survey -- anything else you guys with some relationship with DTV know that I (or we) can do to 'move this along'?
> 
> Thanks.


----------



## 4DThinker

Forgive me for my stupid question.

I have a TIVO series 2 with networking, and LOVE the added network features. I also have a HDVR2 (Hughes) and HATE that it doesn't work the same way. 

Does this announcement and promised upgrade mean my HDVR2 will begin to work the same way my TIVO does? I'm getting pretty addicted to the TIVO extras, and my TIVO hasn't been hacked.


----------



## bto4wd

You can enable your HDVR2 to do many of the things your SA Tivo does. Go over to Tivocommunity.com and search on The Zipper.


----------



## litzdog911

4DThinker said:


> Forgive me for my stupid question.
> 
> I have a TIVO series 2 with networking, and LOVE the added network features. I also have a HDVR2 (Hughes) and HATE that it doesn't work the same way.
> 
> Does this announcement and promised upgrade mean my HDVR2 will begin to work the same way my TIVO does? I'm getting pretty addicted to the TIVO extras, and my TIVO hasn't been hacked.


No. They're not announcing support for any of Tivo's Home Networking features.


----------



## DChristmann

Thaedron said:


> Very well stated. I am of the same opinion.


Likewise. I've got an HR20, but pretty much only for the MPEG4 capabilities. I still prefer the TiVo interface and if an MPEG4-capable DirecTiVo were released, I'd ditch my HR20 for it.

Does the HR20 do a few things better than my DirecTiVos? Yeah. I like being able to watch live TV or a recorded program while doing stuff in the various menus. But on the whole, I like the TiVo interface better. Just personal preference. And I have a bit more confidence in the robustness of the TiVo software to operate without the annoying little glitches that occasionally spring up with my constantly-changing HR20 software.

In the end, it's just TV. I'll survive either way and it won't cause me to switch from DirecTV. But if I had my druthers, we'd see an MPEG4-capable DirecTiVo coming down the pike. Just my personal preference.

And I welcome the new features coming for the DirecTiVos.


----------



## NFLnut

Earl Bonovich said:


> The SD's are still a very large population, while the HD's are decreasing rapidly


I have 4 of them still running, thankyouverymuch. I watch about 90% SD and about 10% HD. As soon as they enable the new sats, I'm sure those numbers will change, but my SD TiVos will probably still get heavy daily use for at least a year or two more.


----------



## SockMonkey

Just got a voicemail from DirecTV regarding these up and coming Tivo updates. Thanks to my VoIP phone service, I get my voicemails emailed to me as WAV files. I converted it to mp3 and if anyone would like to hear it, it's attached. No date(s) are specified though... just "Soon."


----------



## bto4wd

Very Cool. Remote scheduling must mean activation of the USB ports for internet access.


----------



## ApK

bto4wd said:


> Very Cool. Remote scheduling must mean activation of the USB ports for internet access.


No, it does not. It might only work with a phone connection.

Any one have any inside knowledge of this? Earl?


----------



## jdmac29

ApK said:


> No, it does not. It might only work with a phone connection.
> 
> Any one have any inside knowledge of this? Earl?


Looking at the hr20 remote booking it requires a high speed internet connection, I think we will have to purchase the wireless G adapter from tivo for this feature to work on the tivo's also. No way is directv going to change the way remote booking works for there own dvr's and give tivo a special phone connection.


----------



## ApK

jdmac29 said:


> Looking at the hr20 remote booking it requires a high speed internet connection, I think we will have to purchase the wireless G adapter from tivo for this feature to work on the tivo's also. No way is directv going to change the way remote booking works for there own dvr's and give tivo a special phone connection.


The DTivo's already have a phone connection...they are 'supposed' to call in regularly, so there's no technical reason they can't do scheduling this way (I think the SA Tivo's will do that for remote scheduling if you don't have a broadband connection.)

So again, while I certainly hope it's true, until we hear from the inside sources, it's just conjecture and wishful thinking to think we'll get active USB ports and broadband support. I sure hope you're right.


----------



## jdmac29

ApK said:


> The DTivo's already have a phone connection...they are 'supposed' to call in regularly, so there's no technical reason they can't do scheduling this way (I think the SA Tivo's will do that for remote scheduling if you don't have a broadband connection.)
> 
> So again, while I certainly hope it's true, until we hear from the inside sources, it's just conjecture and wishful thinking to think we'll get active USB ports and broadband support. I sure hope you're right.


I agree but I think some of why it will have to be a high speed connnection is as if you are setting at work and you find something you want to record before you go home say in less than 2 hours and the tivo is programmed to only dial in normally in the middle of the night then a high speed connnection is the only way to go. 
From what I know about my sd tivo is that it dials in to ask about the software and then it is downloaded then by the satellite. I have the hr20 and I have the ce for the remote booking so I will see how it all works once it is completely enabled. 
Honestly tivo has had this for years with there stand alone units working with no problems from what I have read on tivocommunity.com.


----------



## dennisdh

Hi all,
I'm new to the Tivo side of dbs talk I've been a CE'er on the hr20-700 for a while and just got my secound HD tv so I hooked up my hr10-250 to my new TV. I sure miss my old tivo unit but I don't regret switching to the hr20. Tivo just has some nice features. Question is there anyway that the tivo unit will be able to utilize on demand?


----------



## litzdog911

dennisdh said:


> ..... Question is there anyway that the tivo unit will be able to utilize on demand?


Almost certainly "no". Sorry.


----------



## dennisdh

after getting my hr10-250 all setup and activated today I downloaded the "latest" software and when everything came back up I tried to go to the guide and it said I favorites wasn't setup so I went into setup and the only chose I have is channels I receive. I went into all channels and unchecked the channels I don't want to see but this seems to be a problem because I was always able to setup favorite channels until I updated my software. Any help?


----------



## CashewNutt

You know the announcement of the DTivos upcoming "features" is great in that DTV is not forgetting all of us. My big question is why those 3 features??? Remote programming is great for travelers, but that's just a few. Kinda useless when you look at the other features of a TIVO S2. What about networking for Tivo Desktop? I'd like to watch my recorded programs on my PC or convert them for my PSP . What about streaming my video to my other DTV DVR's? Now that's a great feature. It never fails that I want to watch the one program on the big screen that I recorded on the DTIVO in the bedroom, or vice versa. Where can we get our two cents in on what features really count?


----------



## Jeremy W

CashewNutt said:


> Where can we get our two cents in on what features really count?


DirecTV will never add those features to the Tivos.


----------



## man_rob

Are these updates still coming?

From the original post.



> EL SEGUNDO & ALVISO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--July 31, 2007--DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSETV), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (NASDAQ:TIVO), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), will develop a software upgrade to enhance the user experience for DIRECTV customers who have DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo(R) service built on the Series2(TM) platform.
> 
> Launching in early 2008, the new software download will provide these customers with DVR enhancements offered with the TiVo service, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection(TM), as well as DIRECTV's Remote Booking feature. In addition, DIRECTV and TiVo will continue to explore ways to bring future enhancements to DIRECTV customers with TiVo receivers.
> 
> "It is important to us that our customers with TiVo service also have access to the latest DVR technology and we look forward to exploring additional opportunities with TiVo," said Derek Chang, executive vice president, Content Strategy and Development for DIRECTV, Inc.
> 
> "DIRECTV's launch of these additional features underscores the uniqueness of TiVo's DVR service," said Naveen Chopra, vice president, Corporate Development and Strategy for TiVo.
> 
> DIRECTV and TiVo began their relationship in 2000 with the launch of the first DIRECTV DVR with TiVo. In April 2006, both companies announced an extension of their commercial and advertising relationship through early 2010.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

man_rob said:


> Are these updates still coming?
> 
> From the original post.


As far as I know... yes.


----------



## Brian Hanasky

By the time that they come everybody will have switched over to the DTV DVR's. I think they are waiting us out.


----------



## ouijal

Brian Hanasky said:


> By the time that they come everybody will have switched over to the DTV DVR's. I think they are waiting us out.


If they were doing that wouldn't they also make the DirecTIVOs act buggy and then not fix them for months upon end?

Oh wait, nevermind.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ouijal said:


> If they were doing that wouldn't they also make the DirecTIVOs act buggy and then not fix them for months upon end?
> 
> Oh wait, nevermind.


Again...

TiVo writes the software for the boxes.
DirecTV does nothing more then test, approve, then allow the install.


----------



## mikewolf13

*Is it possible*.the testing DTV is responsible for is less than it should be allowing for buggy software to be delivered?

I would not be surprised if Dtivo quality assurance is less than top of the line..

Just asking?.....


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> *Is it possible*.the testing DTV is responsible for is less than it should be allowing for buggy software to be delivered?
> 
> I would not be surprised if Dtivo quality assurance is less than top of the line..
> 
> Just asking?.....


But you would also assume that TiVo tested their software, before delivering it to DirecTV....

As to what extent DirecTV's depth goes to... And how much they reject, accept, ect... that is something between DirecTV and TiVo... that I don't have much detail on.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> But you would also assume that TiVo tested their software, before delivering it to DirecTV....
> 
> As to what extent DirecTV's depth goes to... And how much they reject, accept, ect... that is something between DirecTV and TiVo... that I don't have much detail on.


So you really can't say who is responsible.

and yes I would assume Tivo to be more responsible here, but i would not be surprised to find that where DTV is involved there less than motivated.


----------



## Steve

mikewolf13 said:


> and yes I would assume Tivo to be more responsible here, but i would not be surprised to find that where DTV is involved there less than motivated.


Since DirecTV has a software maintenance and support contract with TiVo through 2010, I'm pretty sure they'd like to get _something _back for the money they continue to pay. I know I would!  /steve


----------



## Earl Bonovich

mikewolf13 said:


> So you really can't say who is responsible.
> 
> and yes I would assume Tivo to be more responsible here, but i would not be surprised to find that where DTV is involved there less than motivated.


They are both responsible...

But if something get's past BOTH of their testing.......

There are still over 2million DTiVos out there... that is a lot of potential issues and expence to deal with if something is wrong with the update.
And DirecTV would incur most of that cost, with calls to their service center... sending out techs... ect..


----------



## dodge boy

any idea whwn this software will be available? I have 2 series 2 DTiVos.


----------



## mikewolf13

Earl Bonovich said:


> They are both responsible...
> 
> But if something get's past BOTH of their testing.......
> 
> There are still over 2million DTiVos out there... that is a lot of potential issues and expence to deal with if something is wrong with the update.
> And DirecTV would incur most of that cost, with calls to their service center... sending out techs... ect..


a) I doubt the number is that high by now 2005 had 20% DVR penetration so that's about 3MM subscribers...many have moved to dvr+ or left DTV altogether...we know annual churn is about 18% even if DVR customers ran at half that..that almost 20% of the original 3MM gone in 2 years.

b) those cost/serviceissues didn't stop them form putting out 2 DVRs..at least one I think you will admit was very buggy for alot of people..and that's the one that didn't get half the updates the other got....

c) I picture the call to the service center going someting like "let me send you a free upgrade and free HD package for 6 months...." voila sign them up for another 2 year commitment for activation,

WOnder what that conversion rate is?..there is no doubt buggy Tivo "upgrades" will help sell the conversion to DVR+


----------



## Frostwolf

mikewolf13 said:


> a)what that conversion rate is?..there is no doubt buggy Tivo "upgrades" will help sell the conversion to DVR+


Thats Why I left Dish, The 508 boxes were turned into junk and they are still junk with the lateset firmwares. And Dish says "Better tthan TIVO", ALL FALSE ADVERTISEMENTS


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I don't think DIRECTV's intent is to introduce bugs into TiVo just to get you into the DVR+ series.


----------



## ouijal

Earl Bonovich said:


> Again...
> 
> TiVo writes the software for the boxes.
> DirecTV does nothing more then test, approve, then allow the install.


Oh is that all? Sorry I cast an aspersions their way at all!

*slaps forehead*


----------



## man_rob

Can we safely say the DirecTiVo software updates have been abandoned? That's what DirecTV told a friend of mine.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

man_rob said:


> Can we safely say the DirecTiVo software updates have been abandoned? That's what DirecTV told a friend of mine.


No, they have not been abandoned.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The updates are being written by TiVo, Inc. not by DIRECTV, so it's not likely that their CSRs would be able to give a lot of updates about that.


----------



## Stephen M. Smith

Is there any update on the timeframe for release? I'm really, really hoping that this will make re-configuring all my HR10-250 season passes and wishlists on my HR21 much easier. The clock is ticking... I won't be able to have both active once my MDU goes MFH2 sometime soon.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Stephen M. Smith said:


> Is there any update on the timeframe for release? I'm really, really hoping that this will make re-configuring all my HR10-250 season passes and wishlists on my HR21 much easier. The clock is ticking... I won't be able to have both active once my MDU goes MFH2 sometime soon.


No, there is no update on the time frame.


----------



## man_rob

I emailed DirecTV, and got this response:



> Thanks for writing. The software download for DIRECTV with TiVo receivers had taken place through February 26 and will effect the Series 2 TiVo platform. Customers with a DIRECTV with TiVo Series 2 receiver will be getting enhancements, including a Recently Deleted Folder and Overlap Protection as well as other improvements.
> 
> The upgrade should automatically as long as you have a phone line connected to your DIRECTV with TiVo receiver.
> 
> I hope you find this information helpful and thank you again for writing.


I have an SD only R10. Is it considered a series 2 Tivo?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

The CSR that replied to your email is confusing to different updates.

There was an update through the end of February, which was nothing more then a maintenance release.

It is not the release that will provide the additional features.


----------



## ApK

So...I'm confused...the update everyone's waiting for, with remote scheduling and such, is that the same update that will bring the recentlty deleted folder and the overlap protection (which are both nice features that I miss from my SA tivo)? Or where those features in fact included in the feb maint rel and I should go plug in my phone line to get them?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

ApK said:


> So...I'm confused...the update everyone's waiting for, with remote scheduling and such, is that the same update that will bring the recentlty deleted folder and the overlap protection (which are both nice features that I miss from my SA tivo)? Or where those features in fact included in the feb maint rel and I should go plug in my phone line to get them?


Yes that is the same update.

None of those features are part of the update that was sent in February.


----------



## rawilson

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't think DIRECTV's intent is to introduce bugs into TiVo just to get you into the DVR+ series.


While I agree that that conspiracy theory is silly, the scenario is happeining right now. I and others I know in the Raleigh-Durham, NC area have Tivo-based DirecTV DVRs that are locking up many times a day. There are threads on TivoCommunity, DBSTalk and the DirecTV support forums about this. Every one of us that have called have been told in one way or another that we will most likely need to "upgrade".

Why would multiple people in one area be hitting this problem all at about the same time? Is there anything I can do to get DirecTV / Tivo to debug and fix this problem so I don't have to "upgrade" to a non-Tivo DVR? Is there any way DirecTV will let me out of my contract if I don't want to switch?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rawilson said:


> While I agree that that conspiracy theory is silly, the scenario is happeining right now. I and others I know in the Raleigh-Durham, NC area have Tivo-based DirecTV DVRs that are locking up many times a day. There are threads on TivoCommunity, DBSTalk and the DirecTV support forums about this. Every one of us that have called have been told in one way or another that we will most likely need to "upgrade".
> 
> Why would multiple people in one area be hitting this problem all at about the same time? Is there anything I can do to get DirecTV / Tivo to debug and fix this problem so I don't have to "upgrade" to a non-Tivo DVR? Is there any way DirecTV will let me out of my contract if I don't want to switch?


Highly unlikely you will be be allowed out of any commitment you have.

There is not much you can do to "debug" the issue, other then post your details on the forums on what you are seeing. calling ect.

As for the conspiracy theory... it is just that.
TiVo, Inc. would have to be in on it (since they write the software) and thus would be willing to lose revenue... as if you drop the last tivo off your account, they no longer get service payment for your account.


----------



## rawilson

Earl Bonovich said:


> Highly unlikely you will be be allowed out of any commitment you have.


Of course this is what I expected. I made a commitment to DirecTV. Just wish they'd honor their commitment to me. I'm convinced there's nothing wrong with my box...or the boxes of the other people in our area. Either Tivo or DirecTV or some bogus local feed has interrupted my service. My credit card is charged to DirecTV, so that's who I expect to fix it. Meanwhile, I'm paying for a receiver I can't use and I'm told I might have to convert to a DVR that I do not like. Is there no commitment owed to me from DirecTV?


----------



## Jeremy W

rawilson said:


> Is there no commitment owed to me from DirecTV?


Yes, but that commitment does not specify that they have to allow you to use a DVR that you like.


----------



## parzec

Jeremy W said:


> Yes, but that commitment does not specify that they have to allow you to use a DVR that you like.


So ??? It is still arguably a material change in goods and/or services that makes the contract voidable by the consumer.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

rawilson said:


> Of course this is what I expected. I made a commitment to DirecTV. Just wish they'd honor their commitment to me. I'm convinced there's nothing wrong with my box...or the boxes of the other people in our area. Either Tivo or DirecTV or some bogus local feed has interrupted my service. My credit card is charged to DirecTV, so that's who I expect to fix it. Meanwhile, I'm paying for a receiver I can't use and I'm told I might have to convert to a DVR that I do not like. Is there no commitment owed to me from DirecTV?


There actually is no "might", if you have the unit replaced it will be with a non-TiVo DVR, unless you find another used one.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

parzec said:


> So ??? It is still arguably a material change in goods and/or services that makes the contract voidable by the consumer.


The commitment is for service, not receiver to be used.
You can argue it... but I doubt it will get you anywhere.


----------



## jclewter79

Is there still people out there with tivo boxes that are still under contract?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

jclewter79 said:


> Is there still people out there with tivo boxes that are still under contract?


Probably... since the contract has nothing to do with a specific box.

You could have a TiVo unit on the account, but added another unit (of any type) since March of 2006... and could still be under a contract.

(My neighbor is like that... has an HR20 and HR21, but has a SD-DTivo in the bedroom).

There were still some R10's and HR10-250's being sold through out 2006, that would have carried a commitment with them.


----------



## anubys

Earl Bonovich said:


> The commitment is for service, not receiver to be used.
> You can argue it... but I doubt it will get you anywhere.


I beg to differ...since the agreement is verbal, it is left to each party to state what their state of mind was when they agreed...this is probably why DirecTV now sends you a notice of the agreement in the mail (it makes their case a little stronger, but not by much)...

at any rate, I can switch it around...DirecTV can argue the point with _me_...but I doubt it will get _them_ anywhere


----------



## manhole

Earl Bonovich said:


> There was an update through the end of February, which was nothing more then a maintenance release.


Earl,

Is there any way you can find out why those of us with Samsung Series 2 Tivo's did not receive the update that was rolled out in February? I am in dire need of that update because of frequent reboots.


----------



## rawilson

manhole said:


> Earl,
> 
> Is there any way you can find out why those of us with Samsung Series 2 Tivo's did not receive the update that was rolled out in February? I am in dire need of that update because of frequent reboots.


Beware...it's the update that appears to have caused my lockups/reboots. Incidentally, I did not belive this to be the case, but others in the Raleigh-Durham, NC area are seeing the lockups too and many claim that it is somehow due to the local feeds. Last night I did a little test. Had to unplug and replug my hung R10. Once it booted, I quickly cancelled all recordings on any local channel and changed both tuners (nice that I have that level of control) off of local channels. Well, I was able to watch a full basketball game on ESPN...the longest that receiver has lasted in about a week. Didn't check this morning to see if it's still working, but it does appear that the lockup is somehow related to accessing and/or recording off the locals....never would've believed it.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

manhole said:


> Earl,
> 
> Is there any way you can find out why those of us with Samsung Series 2 Tivo's did not receive the update that was rolled out in February? I am in dire need of that update because of frequent reboots.


All units should have gotten it.

Do you have a phone line connected?


----------



## Sirshagg

DARN! DARN! DARN! 

Every time I see this thread I think it means TiVo features coming to the HR2x platforom. :lol: :nono2:


----------



## jdmac29

Earl Bonovich said:


> All units should have gotten it.
> 
> Do you have a phone line connected?


Earl, I have had mine connected and I have checked the line connection in the menu system and all is well but I have not gotten the update either.


----------



## manhole

Earl Bonovich said:


> All units should have gotten it.
> 
> Do you have a phone line connected?


Yep, phone line has always been connected. I've been forcing daily calls in hopes of getting it, but still nothing. I have read numerous reports from this forum and TC that the Samsung models are not getting the update.


----------



## man_rob

Silence from Tivo and DirecTV. Does anyone know what is going on with this update?


----------



## Lee L

I am not sure it even matters anymore as I can;t seem to keep my HR10s from locking up every 3 days anymore. I am gald we only use them as backups or in rooms we do not use much.


----------



## man_rob

Lee L said:


> I am not sure it even matters anymore as I can;t seem to keep my HR10s from locking up every 3 days anymore. I am gald we only use them as backups or in rooms we do not use much.


My R10 has been reliable. I use it in my bedroom, but having the features advertised by DirecTV as coming in "Early '08 would be nice.


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## Kansas Zephyr

My HR10 and R10 still work without issues (always have), and have 6.3f.

I'm looking forward to remote booking! Please show up soon.


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## Lee L

In my case it is evidently some issue with recording locals in Raleigh, especially the fox station. There is a thread further down about it.


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## codespy

man_rob said:


> Silence from Tivo and DirecTV. Does anyone know what is going on with this update?


Actually, I had just emailed them this week and this is a Email C/P of what I received back from a tier 2 specialist (a portion thereof):

Subject 
TiVo software upgrades announced mid 2007 [Reference #: 080410-005690]

Discussion Thread 
Response (Brandon C ID ******) 04/11/2008 12:22 PM 
Dear Mr. Codespy,

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately we do not have any additional information beyond that in early 2008, all TiVo Series2 receivers will get a software upgrade for several enhancements to functionality. On Aug 13, 2007 certain receivers got a message regarding enhancements. To get latest information on software enhancements, your receivers should be connected to phone line. Sadly there is nothing further we can advise you of.

I have, however, forwarded your email and questions to our management team for review and consideration. I apologize that there is nothing further that we can provide you.

Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

Brandon C ID ******
DIRECTV Customer Service

Make the most of DIRECTV by registering your account on directv.com. You'll learn about exclusive online promotions, new features of DIRECTV and the latest programs and packages. Visit www.directv.com/register today. 
Customer () 04/11/2008 05:28 AM 
.

Dear Maiza or DirecTV Customer Service Rep- Thank you for the quick response, however, I am quite confused by the response. Was the February 26 response you gave meant for 2008 or 2009? If it was meant for 2008, I have had my DirecTV TiVo series 2 platform receivers plugged in continuosly through February 26, and it is now April 11th, and have not received the update with the new special features. Nor do I believe it has been released nationally. The update I received in February was for 6.3f which 
does not include these new features. Perhaps another department may be able to assist in the answer. Thank you in advance for your detailed answers, and thank you for the offer for the free upgrade on the HD mpeg4 receivers. However, my interest for now is limited to 
the series 2 platform DirecTV TiVo receiver software upgrade. Sincerely, Codespy


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## marlon1985

I have not upgrade my receiver in a long time, my question is how do I do it without phone connection sinece i dont have land line @ home?


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## inkahauts

go to a friends house and plug it in...


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## man_rob

I think we have to face the fact that this is vaporware.


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## diagonal

man_rob said:


> I think we have to face the fact that this is vaporware.


http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=393867


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## Drew2k

man_rob said:


> I think we have to face the fact that this is vaporware.





diagonal said:


> http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=393867


Or just look right witihn the Legacy forum here for the 6.3f thread, with one post in particular quoting TCF for the features discovered so far. 

*6.3f received on SD-DirecTiVo*


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## crashHD

man_rob said:


> I think we have to face the fact that this is vaporware.


If vaporware becomes visible, does that mean it has condensed, or precipitated? Is it then called liquidware?


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## hdtvfan0001

crashHD said:


> If vaporware becomes visible, does that mean it has condensed, or precipitated? Is it then called liquidware?


I believe a more accurate name might be "Fantasyware".


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## crashHD

or realityware, as it has actually appeared now.


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