# How my 3rd R15 was packed and shipped



## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

This is a re-creation, as I have it hooked up, and this is actually #2 in the box to be shipped back. And the remote was in a plastic bag, but otherwise this is how I received it. No styrofoam, a single piece of bubble wrap. I picked up the box, and the receiver was sliding around. It is labeled as refurbished, but as it is the worst misbehaving of the bunch, I have my doubts. Of course, it may perhaps have been fine when it left there, but after shipping and handling, in this sort of 'packing'....... :nono2:


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess quality is _not_ job 1. It's right at about 13 or 14, next to customer satisfaction.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Looks like they are using the new hit tech packaging material.... "air" :lol: :lol: 

I can't believe that they'd ship anything that has a HD with out correctly packaging it. That's just plain dumb. I guess they don't care about shipping cost but they care about package material costs


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## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

I would bet refurb.


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## ericm31 (Dec 30, 2005)

That's exactly how my #3 receiver arrived also. Also, kinda ticked me off that I got a "re-furb" unit, considering my original unit was brand new. I just hope that maybe since it's refurbished, that it will have all the problems fixed.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Looks like whomever they have doing their refurbing needs to learn how to pack electronics. BAD BAD BAD


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## stigmata (Mar 20, 2006)

Yup, thats how I got my unit on Saturday. I was amazed at how poorly it was packaged AND that they wanted me to send my defective unit back in that box too.


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## dutch (Feb 12, 2006)

I received a replacement unit in a box that must have been submerged in water. All of the glue between the cardboard layers was gone! The box was falling apart and there was mildew covering the entire interior surface of the box. I called them and told them I wouldn’t plug it in. My next replacement was a NEW R15-500 complete with cables and remote.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Does anyone other than me see a pattern here? The R15 is about to be the largest embarrassment of any cable/sat provider. The CSRs keep saying send the unit back, but then they keep sending the "sent back" units out as replacements. Without new packaging!!!!!...or any packaging!!!!

This really means DTV is not in control at this point. The R15 should not have been release back in Nov/Dec of 2005 and even in almost April 2006 it still just plain is not reliable.

Add to that the dumping of all DTivo units in their fire sale. DTV is pretty much screwed.

This next software update better solve problems. Otherwise, the R15 may be written off in history as the Edsel of DVRs.

Aside from this, since the HR20 is suppose to be based on this software, how is the development coming when the original (R15) still doesn't work. And, for all of the R15 supporters out there, you do have to admit, the R15 doesn't work. Right?


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## sjniedz (Feb 11, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Does anyone other than me see a pattern here? The R15 is about to be the largest embarrassment of any cable/sat provider. The CSRs keep saying send the unit back, but then they keep sending the "sent back" units out as replacements. Without new packaging!!!!!...or any packaging!!!!
> 
> This really means DTV is not in control at this point. The R15 should not have been release back in Nov/Dec of 2005 and even in almost April 2006 it still just plain is not reliable.
> 
> ...


I echo these sentiments. You have to wonder where the direction of DTV is going. I just don't see them being the leaders of technology I once perceived them as being.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Aside from this, since the HR20 is suppose to be based on this software, how is the development coming when the original (R15) still doesn't work. And, for all of the R15 supporters out there, you do have to admit, the R15 doesn't work. Right?


In what aspects? With certain arguments I can say the TiVo doesn't work either...

Sure the R15 has problems... but they are getting worked on....

Does anyone have hard numbers on what the failure rate is?

Let's go back and look at the TiVo's track record when updates come out... they hae systems that "tank" at the same time as the upgrade..... They have systems that don't work..... It happens... these are not simple easy VCRs... these are complex systems, designed to work on the minimalest amount of hardware they can work on.....

Go long on to tivocommunity.com; you are going to find people that have issues...

Yes the R15 will record Repeats when I tell it not too.
Yes, it has missed recordings. 
Do I have to hit the reset button once and a while... yep....

But that is nothing "new" to DVRs... Dish's does that... Comcasts... theirs too.. TiVo... yep... even UTV has had units do it.

We here at DBS are a very small portion of the user base... and we are way out there on the edge of the bell curve with this technology.

Has the R15 gotten better since the day I got it just under 5 months ago, and did the first review.... most definently.

Is it still going to get better.... most definently.

This is still the FIRST DVR that "DirecTV" (Not Sky+) has put out there.... I have told you before, they are writing this from the ground up..... Some components may come from the sister company, but the core of the unit was written from scratch.

Even TiVo didn't get it completely rigth with the first model... heck they are onto their third generation product now. and had the Series 2 units out about two years after the Series 1's where made popular.

So to say the R15 is an embaressment on the scale of EDSEL? Not even in the ballpark yet....

------------------

To the other posts... I don't agree with the method they where shipped in...

But user Dutch.... I have gotten packaged that have been destroyed during shipping. Are you 100% possitive that the carrier didn't expose your package to the elements somehow? Do you really think that DirecTV would ship a box that was in the condition you where describing?

As for the referbs.... some referbs could simply be units returned because the users didn't like the GUI.... Or they got it, and it was the "Tivo" they thought they where getting....

Sure it should have been packed better, and you have a right to be upset about that....... But to think that DirecTV is going to "throw away" or "risk" their multi-billion dollar buisness, by cutting those types of corners.... you have got to be out of your mind...

Raise your concerns with the retention or customer service people. Let them know their shipping departments are really screwing things up....

*Time to get off the: *
:soapbox:

Listen... I don't normally do posts like that, but really...
If you are not happy with the R15... return it.. Seriously.
Be done with it... get a TiVo or a used Ultimate TV... until you are satisfied it is a product for you.

I have no problem with the complaints on the unit.... so long as they are constructive.

But bottom line... your money, your decision. Pack it up, and go with something else, or another carrier, or what have you.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl,

You know I'm not getting into a Tivo/R15 thing with you. But don't try to say "sure the R15 has problems but so do Tivos". 

I've been some what quiet since the latest upgrade and I've been listening. It seems to me there have been quite a few problems, dead systems, black screens since this update appeared. I sure don't know why, but it doesn't seem DTV wants to know why when CSRs simply say "we'll send you a new one" not even packaged correctly. This just plain ain't right. If DTV doesn't take control of this run-away train soon, they won't be able to. It will not have anything to do with what we here say. It will have everything to do with what the market says.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> This is still the FIRST DVR that "DirecTV" (Not Sky+) has put out there.... I have told you before, they are writing this from the ground up..... Some components may come from the sister company, but the core of the unit was written from scratch.


Earl,

With all due respect, if this is the "FIRST DVR that DirecTV (Not Sky+) has put out there" then why does the CEO of DirecTV say this is a NDS DVR (the same company that built the Sky+ DVR) and so does the NDS website.

I am all for constructive commentary and choosing a different DVR as well... But to keep on saying that DirecTV wrote this from the ground up is contrary to every public comment made by DirecTV and NDS. I don't see why this is such an "issue" that it does seem to be.

I'll get off my soapbox as well  .

FWIW, I sincerely doubt DirecTV would intentionally just throw a reciever (any reciever) in a flimsy box without taking proper care. Do people get lazy (at DirecTV or FedEx -- you betcha) but that is something that really needs to be brought to DirecTV's attention so they can fix it.

Just like commentary here is supposed to help DirecTV see the problems that users face... so they can fix them too.


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## Bud33 (Jan 26, 2006)

I really don't understand all the bashing. There seems to be only a few names doing all the complaining.
I have 2 R-15's. One I got in December and the other in Feb.
The December unit has had to be reset once. So far the Feb. unit has not failed.
I guess it is because I am new the DVR's and to dumb to screw them up!!!


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

I've had DVR's first from Dish back in 2000 or so, then with Comcast pretty much continuously since then. Before the DCT6412 came out, I had one of Comcast single tuner DVRs (can't recall the model number). And when the DCT6412 came out, I jumped on it. The 6412 (as we discussed before) certainly had/has issues, but NONE of the several models from Dish and Comcast have been anywhere near as bad as this POS. And, yes, Earl, I am having Dish installed tomorrow, at which point I will call D-TV and cancel. I mentioned in another post that the last CSR I spoke to when this one was craptastic right out of the gate, offered to send me an R10.
Earl, I've not been around here that long, so please don't take this as an attack, but do you work for D-TV, or just a big fan? The info you have posted has been very helpful, but you do seem to feel that D-TV can do no wrong!  Myself, I feel that if I am paying for a service, I should be receiving what I pay for. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned...... and it has gotten to where I truly dread going to try and watch TV. Plain old TV works fairly well, but the DVR doesn't come close. I agree that unless they can pull a rabbit out of a hat, the R15 will live on in infamy.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolf: I know you are not going to get into the "When TiVo came out..."

That isn't my intent... just sounds that way. I am not trying to use it for "justification", but more from a historical point of view. The DVRs in general, accross the board, all have had similar to issues to the R15.... TiVo just get's singled out for the same reasons it is the "top dog" in DVRs.

I know the market will dictate the survival of the products... Hence why I try (sometimes too much) to point out the "other" argument, when there are so many people and posters on the other side of the fence.... To at least be a voice, to bring some balance.

We cool?

--------------

Morgan;

All I can say... I haven't seen the exact statements by the CEO... not saying they don't exist. But if they come from "reports" or "summary" type articles, then their may be pieces to equation missing.... If anything we know of in these forums and the internet, typed word can be very easily "selectively" edited to say one thing, when the original content was another.

I am not saying you or anyone else is right or wrong, but what I put out there is what I have been told by my contact....... I know my contact will see this thread, and will correct me if I am wrong... And If I am.... good... I don't like being wrong, and have a very good sauce that I put on my crow when I have to eat it...

We Cool?

-----------------
Bud...

Nature of the forum boards... there are plenty of "bashers" out there...
*BUT* the majority of people in this thread, are not the "bashers"... in fact they are very sensible voices in the arguments...

Big difference

--------------
Masterwolfe

Nope, I don't work for DirecTV... and to a marginal degree... I hope I never do. Don't get me wrong, as a software developer, I would salivate at a chance to work on a product like the R15... that would just be freaking awsome.

But, no... for the record... I am NOT a DirecTV employee.

And I have pointed out where DirecTV has done wrong... Started with the Series 1 DTivos, follwed by the Series 2, then the R10 and then the R15.... I don't try to hide squat about any of the boxes.... Not my "job", and it isn't the "role" I try to play in this crazy community world.

I am sure there will be a post or two (okay maybe more), where I may not "admit" something.... but across my 10,000 post between here and TCF and other forums... I would like to think that at least I have been objective enough to not "deny" anything about the box.... but at least try to put it into an alternative context.

I am fan of the technology that is out there.... If the R15 doesn't materialize... then so be it... If the HR20 doesn't materialize..... so be it... the HMC, or the Home Theater system....

If it get's to the point that I can't get what I want out of my DirecTV systems, I will leave... just like you are. The latest Dish products to appear promising..... 
But right now... my eyes are set on the Microsoft Media Center... with of course a DirecTV tuner 

That is where the next level of geeks will get to play...

You my friend, have goten a spectacularly raw deal... Either a conspiracy against you, or just an amazing stroke of bad luck.... But where you differ, is that you have a voice here and we have seen it...and other have seen it...

So to a degree you have made a difference.

Good luck with you adventures to Dishnetwork.... may it go smoother then your R15 experiencr...

We Cool?


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

Thanks for 'splaining, Earl . Of course we cool! I don't know, my gf thinks I am a grouch with such things, cause truth is, I DO have little patience. I want something to work, and work NOW, darnit! . 

But....... after I posted my last, I went into the living room to finish watch a show I had paused. Well, it wouldn't restart, I had to reset the receiver for perhaps the 5th time today.... may not sound like too many times, but considering I have spent a grand total of perhaps 2 hours in front of the idiot box today, it IS a lot. Any hoo, thanks for being cool, amigo!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

masterwolfe said:


> Thanks for 'splaining, Earl . Of course we cool! I don't know, my gf thinks I am a grouch with such things, cause truth is, I DO have little patience. I want something to work, and work NOW, darnit! .
> 
> But....... after I posted my last, I went into the living room to finish watch a show I had paused. Well, it wouldn't restart, I had to reset the receiver for perhaps the 5th time today.... may not sound like too many times, but considering I have spent a grand total of perhaps 2 hours in front of the idiot box today, it IS a lot. Any hoo, thanks for being cool, amigo!


I think you need to look for some other root cause here. I have had my box since November, I have hit the reset button 4 times, 1 for a lockup (or what I thought was) and 3 other to try and download the new software. Unless you are just being sent bad boxes right off the bat I would have to start looking at everything, dish, LNB, multiswitch, power spikes (they do nasty things to pc's) (yes some power supplys are FAR more touchy then others to these), cables and so forth. SOMETHING has got to be causing these issues.

There are just far too many people out there that have the R15 that don't have these issues for it to be a core product problem. I have said many times for the people that are having these issues there has to be some commonality. Oh and before I get the how heavy do you use it question. It's now my main and ONLY DVR so it gets quite a lot.


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## Melquiades (Feb 19, 2006)

I've had my R-15 since December and I've never had to re-set, nor has it failed to record anything I've asked it to. I don't know if I'm in the extreme minority, or the silent majority. No way to tell, really.


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## Mavrick (Feb 1, 2006)

The 2 D10 Refurbs I recieved back in Oct. last year were packaged the same way my brother in law has even recieved a refurbed D*Tivo packaged this way.

From what I have seen this seems to be D* standard way of packing refurbs just wrap a little bubble wrap around them and they will be fine.


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> I think you need to look for some other root cause here. I have had my box since November, I have hit the reset button 4 times, 1 for a lockup (or what I thought was) and 3 other to try and download the new software. Unless you are just being sent bad boxes right off the bat I would have to start looking at everything, dish, LNB, multiswitch, power spikes (they do nasty things to pc's) (yes some power supplys are FAR more touchy then others to these), cables and so forth. SOMETHING has got to be causing these issues.
> 
> There are just far too many people out there that have the R15 that don't have these issues for it to be a core product problem. I have said many times for the people that are having these issues there has to be some commonality. Oh and before I get the how heavy do you use it question. It's now my main and ONLY DVR so it gets quite a lot.


Then it would still be their issue, as they did the install...... funny too, cause they started off on a bad foot with me from the start. I had a 8-12 install scheduled, come 12:30, hadn't heard nothing from them. Guy finally shows up around 3, and basically handed me the box with a receiver (wrong one, non-dvr, at first) and says go hook this up while I install the dish. First box wasn't TOO bad, but they've gone downhill since. If I were the only one having issues, I might agree with you, but I'm not. And while perhaps lots of peeps aren't, how many peeps ARE that we don't hear about here? From what CSRs and Level 2 techs have said to me on the phone, it IS a major problem for them.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

masterwolfe said:


> Then it would still be their issue, as they did the install...... funny too, cause they started off on a bad foot with me from the start. I had a 8-12 install scheduled, come 12:30, hadn't heard nothing from them. Guy finally shows up around 3, and basically handed me the box with a receiver (wrong one, non-dvr, at first) and says go hook this up while I install the dish. First box wasn't TOO bad, but they've gone downhill since. If I were the only one having issues, I might agree with you, but I'm not. And while perhaps lots of peeps aren't, how many peeps ARE that we don't hear about here? From what CSRs and Level 2 techs have said to me on the phone, it IS a major problem for them.


To be very honest I wish I could say that a bad install would surprise me. With the horror stories I have read though it doesn't. When the guy handed me a box and told me to hook it up I would have asked if he was out of his freakin mind. Thats their job to do. There are MANY horrible install companies out there, it seems getting a good one is getting harder every day.

As for others having the issue, yes I agree there are many of them thats why I stated there has to be some commonality. So just out of curiosity why didn't you tke the R10? Thats a very good box there.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> To be very honest I wish I could say that a bad install would surprise me. With the horror stories I have read though it doesn't. When the guy handed me a box and told me to hook it up I would have asked if he was out of his freakin mind. Thats their job to do. There are MANY horrible install companies out there, it seems getting a good one is getting harder every day.
> 
> As for others having the issue, yes I agree there are many of them thats why I stated there has to be some commonality. So just out of curiosity why didn't you tke the R10? Thats a very good box there.


About the install. Ironwood does the install's in this area and absolutely will not let you hook up the box (even if you specifically ask to). That does not discount your experience in the least -- unfortunately the installs are highly variable (and one would have to expect the same from any DBS provider). The last experience I had, the installer stayed for 90 minutes and went way beyond the minimum.

As far as the returns. I have done two (one I learned later was not a DVR issue at all, and the other's decoder was fried) and never had a box come in bubble wrap. That said, the last return (fried decoder) was shipped more cheaply than the return that took place over a year ago. I do think they are trying to cut corners there.

As far as the R10, you really did miss out on that one. The R10 and other series 2 DVRs are very mature and stable. Not to say you can't get a bad box or hard drive...but on the whole they are very stable.

I'll wait for the R15 to get up to speed and use my existing TiVo's in the interim. Of course the NFLST is a huge reason for me being with DTV as well, so I'm definately biased toward DTV  .

Good luck with Dish and I hope your next install is much better than the last.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Morgan;
> 
> All I can say... I haven't seen the exact statements by the CEO... not saying they don't exist. But if they come from "reports" or "summary" type articles, then their may be pieces to equation missing.... If anything we know of in these forums and the internet, typed word can be very easily "selectively" edited to say one thing, when the original content was another.
> 
> ...


Earl,

I would provide some specific links if it would be helpful  . The CEO comment was from the financial presentation and directly out of Chase's mouth (during the Q&A IIRC). I listened to the whole thing just to discount the R20 rumor...FWIW.

The NDS.com site is very straight-forward about DirecTV using the XTV platform for its DVR: " NDS has already achieved significant success and industry recognition in deploying XTV-the first fully integrated PVR-on Sky digital's platform... During 2005-2006, XTV will begin powering the PVR offerings of other leading operators including US-based DIRECTV..." The only text being removed refers to other New Corp providers using NDS XTV PVR/DVR solutions.

Any search on a DirecTV DVR brings up the common refrain ...DirecTV having moved away from TiVo will now rely on News Corp subsidiary NDS for its DVR...

CNN from March 6, 2006 "DirecTV's agreement to sell TiVo to its customers will end in early 2007 and the company, which is controlled by media giant News Corp., has indicated that it soon intends to begin selling DVRs from NDS Group, another News Corp.-controlled company, to its subscribers instead." That has been reported since early 2005 in various reports (USAToday, etc.).

This is also repeated in SEC fillings for TiVo, NDS, and DirecTV.

Wikipedia: "NDS also makes the XTV PVR/DVR,which has been cumulatively deployed in more than 2 million set-top boxes. XTV is more commonly identifiable as the Sky+ system and the popular DirecTV+ system NDS has deployed..."

So...I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm trying to "bash" anyone, especially you. Do note, I don't think you ever claimed to be "bashed." But whatever code DirecTV is writing seems to be a very small portion that is highly dependent on the NDS XTV platform.

All that said, we're cool. We both want to see DirecTV succeed for various reasons. We both want a top-of-the-line DVR.

Off the sopabox...


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Don't forget the Volume Label on the HD was XTV_STR_DSK. Although it appears this may have changed with one of the software updates. Now it appears the Volume Label is "VOLUMELABE". Need to verify this with the live drive.

Maybe they're trying to "cut the cord" with XTV.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Don't forget the Volume Label on the HD was XTV_STR_DSK. Although it appears this may have changed with one of the software updates. Now it appears the Volume Label is "VOLUMELABE". Need to verify this with the live drive.
> 
> Maybe they're trying to "cut the cord" with XTV.


That might be a good thing.

It's highly likely that they used it as the base for the code and are redoing everything to fit their needs. I said at the start it was highly likely that MANY things would have to be changed because of the differences in th two sides of the pond.

I know the products from the company I used to work for still have MANY things that point to the name of the old product een the product that replaced it has nothing to do with the old. There is almost no code left that hasn't been redone from the ground up yet there are still many labels that have the old product name in it.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> That might be a good thing.
> 
> It's highly likely that they used it as the base for the code and are redoing everything to fit their needs. I said at the start it was highly likely that MANY things would have to be changed because of the differences in th two sides of the pond.
> 
> I know the products from the company I used to work for still have MANY things that point to the name of the old product een the product that replaced it has nothing to do with the old. There is almost no code left that hasn't been redone from the ground up yet there are still many labels that have the old product name in it.


I have that at my job too. They left the old folder name even on new systems. I assume they did it so they wouldn't have to write an "or" statement in software upgrades. They changed the name of the software because people had a negative image of that name with us and they deside to use a new name to say it's different (and it wasn't). I still get people complain when I have them going to program files and they see the name of the directory. They are upset that they are really using the same software when they were told it was different. The other difference is that it that it has been improved.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Don't forget the Volume Label on the HD was XTV_STR_DSK. Although it appears this may have changed with one of the software updates. Now it appears the Volume Label is "VOLUMELABE". Need to verify this with the live drive.
> 
> Maybe they're trying to "cut the cord" with XTV.


If that is true then NDS should clean up their website, SEC filings, and press releases. The last SEC filing for NDS on 1/31/06 offered:



> During the quarter DIRECTV commenced deployment of our DVR technology within their new generation set-top box. Our revenues under our set-top box technology contract with DIRECTV are substantially dependent upon the number of DVR set-top boxes manufactured and deployed. We expect such revenues to increase in the future.


After the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 the corporate big guys are personally responsible (with the whole board of directors) for these filings. Providing false information has serious consequeces. I doubt DTV, NDS, or News Corp would take the risk.

The media should also correct their reporting, and heck the DTV CEO may want to take note before his next presentation (tomorrow morning).

If it is mis-information -- then there sure is a heck of a lot of it. ...and no one except Earl (and his contact at DTV) has gotten it right.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

morgantown said:


> If that is true then NDS should clean up their website, SEC filings, and press releases. The last SEC filing for NDS on 1/31/06 offered:
> 
> After the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002 the corporate big guys are personally responsible (with the whole board of directors) for these filings. Providing false information has serious consequeces. I doubt DTV, NDS, or News Corp would take the risk.
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter if they use one line of code provided by NDS or all of them, they have a licensing agreement with them and have to pay for every box shipped.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> Doesn't matter if they use one line of code provided by NDS or all of them, they have a licensing agreement with them and have to pay for every box shipped.


[:rant:]
So, DTV had a licensing agreement with Tivo but poor little Rupert wanted life his way. That's fine. Guys like Rupert can do whatever they want. They have money. What do they care about us folks....customers.

Now DTV severs ties with Tivo, at the time being the best DVR available to the public (anyone that disagrees, let's go!) and they sign a licensing agreement with NDS, makers of the famed XTV Sky+ DVRs in the UK. A DVR that has been plagued with problems since it's inception. And better yet, this platform, that is still very young, will be the future of DTV....or NDS....or whatever.

I've been a part of a corporation that told us to stop using the vendor that provided the best bang for the buck, best dollar value and best product so that we can pull those services from an internal unit. Those deals never ending up helping the end user. Be that a user in the field, or a customer.

I've been in a room where a VP of {his ego} says, "Hey, don't we have some guys in Virgina that did something like this 5 years ago?", and have some else say "Sure we do, and they have nothing to work on right now." and the VP says "Great, cancel this contract you have with this third party vendor and start working with our guys in Virgina.". That is a true story. We were forced to dump a perfectly good vendor and go internal for services that were 25% of what we were getting with the vendor and the internal charge rate was 50% more than the vendor was charging us.

OK....ok....I'm done.

[/:rant: ]

In the end, DTV/News Corp stocks and market share will reflect this decision.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Okay... Okay...

We are arguing over points that none of us... including me, have any first hand knowledge of. We have all either got it from some one else, or from a website, or from an investor note, or from where ever.

Does it ultimately matter where the code comes from or who wrote what? 
Not to us the end users.... we just need it to work.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Okay... Okay...
> 
> We are arguing over points that none of us... including me, have any first hand knowledge of. We have all either got it from some one else, or from a website, or from an investor note, or from where ever.
> 
> ...


Well, it does matter if it's not working, right? Quite honestly, at this point I think everyone is just looking for a unit that is stable. Being stable means it works reliably and the same for everyone. The R15 doesn't do that.

Yes, we need it to work. Earl, you've mentioned you are a software developer, as am I. So you must know if you start working with a program that had basic flaws and tried to modify that core code without starting completely over you can run into a no win situation. Possibly after months of trying to get it to work you give up and start over.

So, I submit to all, the origins of the R15 are as important as it's current state.

If NDS made a basic error in selecting the filesystem, OS or hardware upon which SKY+ or it's children are based, then the R15 and possibly the HR20 have a very long road ahead of them. When did the first SKY boxes appear? At least a couple of years ago, correct? So development on those boxes probably started a year or two before they appeared. Would we be back to 2002, 2003 by then? How old is this technology? Really?

Saying it doesn't matter where the code comes from is like saying it doesn't matter who one's parents are, or what one's education is. The current product is based on past history. The hardware is set, the OS is set, the filesystem is set. As you mention, we don't know anything. So, for all we do know, the limitations we're seeing and problems some experience are inherent to the NDS product, thus the R15 and could end up being difficult, if not impossible, for DTV to fix without dumping the original NDS platform all together.


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

morgantown said:


> About the install. Ironwood does the install's in this area and absolutely will not let you hook up the box (even if you specifically ask to). That does not discount your experience in the least -- unfortunately the installs are highly variable (and one would have to expect the same from any DBS provider). The last experience I had, the installer stayed for 90 minutes and went way beyond the minimum.
> 
> As far as the returns. I have done two (one I learned later was not a DVR issue at all, and the other's decoder was fried) and never had a box come in bubble wrap. That said, the last return (fried decoder) was shipped more cheaply than the return that took place over a year ago. I do think they are trying to cut corners there.
> 
> ...


So far so good with Dish. And I did think very hard about the R10, but the whole experience left a very bad taste in my mouth, to be honest. And I will majorly miss the Fox Sports channel lineup DTV has, the primary reason I chose them over Dish in the first place. I lived in AZ for a number of years and am a huge Diamondbacks fan. Ah well, I'll live


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

masterwolfe said:


> So far so good with Dish. And I did think very hard about the R10, but the whole experience left a very bad taste in my mouth, to be honest. And I will majorly miss the Fox Sports channel lineup DTV has, the primary reason I chose them over Dish in the first place. I lived in AZ for a number of years and am a huge Diamondbacks fan. Ah well, I'll live


Good to hear things are back to "normal" with Dish. At the end of the day it is all just banter about TV and DVR's...and it is still the end of the day .

Here's to better luck with it all!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Saying it doesn't matter where the code comes from is like saying it doesn't matter who one's parents are, or what one's education is. The current product is based on past history. The hardware is set, the OS is set, the filesystem is set. As you mention, we don't know anything. So, for all we do know, the limitations we're seeing and problems some experience are inherent to the NDS product, thus the R15 and could end up being difficult, if not impossible, for DTV to fix without dumping the original NDS platform all together.


I didn't mean it like that.

I ment more like.... We here in the forum can continue to hash it over and over and over... but until an authoritative voice who was part of the process chimes in... me will never know EXACTLY what came from where. So we should spend much more time debating it....


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I didn't mean it like that.
> 
> I ment more like.... We here in the forum can continue to hash it over and over and over... but until an authoritative voice who was part of the process chimes in... me will never know EXACTLY what came from where. So we should spend much more time debating it....


Do you care if this thread is the designated point for that... I'd rather not have a new thread with NDS, etc. in the title as it would probably be too much of a distraction on the board. Perhaps some "quiet " discussion here would be better for all...seriously.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Otay...


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Alrighty then. 

Since the R15 obviously "at least" began its life as an XTV DVR and DTV wants to roll-out all of the other XTV stuff: XTV to go, HomeNet, Media Center.... Would it not be much to think that modifying the XTV code too much would make integrating with the other XTV stuff difficult, at best? Not to mention paying NDS for XTV and and using "only one line of code" would be a monumental waste of cash...

Check out the clip at the NDS.com homepage if you have not already. It shows a US fox station bragging about all the great things that can be done with NDS software (and shows clips right off of a DirecTV unit).

IMHO it was NDS, it is NDS, it will be NDS a year from now.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

WOW I didn't know that all that new tech, including the Home Media Center was based off NDS software. Now I'm not sure they be able to really correct things. I mean if they can't correct it on the other side of the pond and they are using the same stuff they really can't sway from the path of that technology or the software. I wonder if the bugs/issues with lockups and missed shows are just going to be a normal for the R15 since the SKY+ box has been out for a while and still have issues. Don't get me wrong I know they are working hard on it but if the problem is in the base of the software I don't think patching it will help. I'm really glad that I'm not an R15 programer and I'm thankful for all there work, but if it turns out to be the base software I don't think they'd tell us nor would they be able to replace it.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> WOW I didn't know that all that new tech, including the Home Media Center was based off NDS software. Now I'm not sure they be able to really correct things. I mean if they can't correct it on the other side of the pond and they are using the same stuff they really can't sway from the path of that technology or the software. I wonder if the bugs/issues with lockups and missed shows are just going to be a normal for the R15 since the SKY+ box has been out for a while and still have issues. Don't get me wrong I know they are working hard on it but if the problem is in the base of the software I don't think patching it will help. I'm really glad that I'm not an R15 programer and I'm thankful for all there work, but if it turns out to be the base software I don't think they'd tell us nor would they be able to replace it.


Sky+ was introduced in 2001. IIRC, TiVo was introduced in 1999.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Alrighty then.
> 
> Since the R15 obviously "at least" began its life as an XTV DVR and DTV wants to roll-out all of the other XTV stuff: XTV to go, HomeNet, Media Center.... Would it not be much to think that modifying the XTV code too much would make integrating with the other XTV stuff difficult, at best? Not to mention paying NDS for XTV and and using "only one line of code" would be a monumental waste of cash...
> 
> ...


Uhhhh just so you know the one line of code was to make a point. I have no idea and neither does anyone else most likely outside of the dev teams have any real idea of how much code is new or old.

We can hve this discussion until everyone of our fingers fall off from typing and it will never change that fact.

Many of here are in this profession and we know some of the monumently stupid decisions people make based on things that make even less sense then what their about to do.

My guess is that you will see the base of the NDS product there with all new modules plugged in to work with the distribution system the DirecTV uses. There are many differences between the BSkyB system and DirecTVs systems so there is much of the code that would have to be rewritten to accomodate those. For those who say oh thats a breeze I say look at how long it's taking TiVo to port to work with Comcast.

I also would actually like to know is the hardware in our R15 the same or different then whats inside the NDS boxes? Yes I know the tuners and such would have to be different, I am talking more about the CPU, Memeory and things of that nature.

Ok I am doing running on and on now. 

Thank you - Driver though (anyone know what thats from?)


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Clint Lamor said:


> I also would actually like to know is the hardware in our R15 the same or different then whats inside the NDS boxes? Yes I know the tuners and such would have to be different, I am talking more about the CPU, Memeory and things of that nature.


Here's a link to some info I came across when I was originally looking for R15 info. Not sure how accurate it is.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I also would actually like to know is the hardware in our R15 the same or different then whats inside the NDS boxes? Yes I know the tuners and such would have to be different, I am talking more about the CPU, Memeory and things of that nature.


Slightly more up-to-date info: http://www.pace.co.uk/corporate/products/prodinfo.asp?PID=TDS470N

Chip sets are same company and quite similar. CPU's 166 to 200.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Sky+ was introduced in 2001. IIRC, TiVo was introduced in 1999.


Ok, I didn't know it was that long ago. All that time and they sit haven't been able to build a stable box?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Ok, I didn't know it was that long ago. All that time and they sit haven't been able to build a stable box?


At the risk of starting another one of "those discussions", it's another reason why some folks have a difficult time accepting the "well, it's not too bad for DTVs first DVR" point of view.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> At the risk of starting another one of "those discussions", it's another reason why some folks have a difficult time accepting the "well, it's not too bad for DTVs first DVR" point of view.


I don't want to start one of those either but I just got a chance to look at NDS's website and I think I finally understand why someone could say that with some merit.

If I understand this correctly NDS is providing the XTV "O/S"(for lack of a better term) and D* has to write there own "software program" to work with NDS's "O/S". Almost like Firefox or Netscape making a program to work with windows. Do I have this right?

If this is the case I wonder if the real problem is XTV "O/S" or the D* and SKY "software" programers?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I don't want to start one of those either but I just got a chance to look at NDS's website and I think I finally understand why someone could say that with some merit.
> 
> If I understand this correctly NDS is providing the XTV "O/S"(for lack of a better term) and D* has to write there own "software program" to work with NDS's "O/S". Almost like Firefox or Netscape making a program to work with windows. Do I have this right?
> 
> If this is the case I wonder if the real problem is XTV "O/S" or the D* and SKY "software" programers?


I think that's pretty much it. There are portions developed by NDS and portions by DTV. In my eyes, the items needed, and items that could be pulled from the SKY+/NDS would be:


An embedded RTOS. Perhaps QNX, Wind River's VxWorks or LynxOS. For those techie folks that are interested you can find more here. I would guess this was already decided by NDS and DTV is working on the same platform. I would be VERY suprised if NS built it's own RTOS given so many proven options available.
A filesystem capable of handling the large data streams and throughput required. While I cannot verify this, I'm 90% sure the R15 is running a FAT32 based filesystem called ERTFS from ESBNet. This could be ERTFS Pro (Fat32 with extensions) or ERTFS Pro+64 (Fat64). Again, I would guess this was a decision made in the early stages of the SKY+ box development and migrated from NDS to DTV and the R15.
Access card logic. That's gotta be a DTV written module.
Guide data logic. I'm not sure where the SKY+ gets it's guide data but probably not Tribune. So my guess here is that DTV started with the guide code from NDS and made changes to fit it's source and format of the guide data. As I would also guess the guide data provided to the SKY+ boxes may not be as complete as the data from Tribune that Tivo uses and I'm hoping the R15 is using. This could explain First Run/Repeat problems as perhaps there never was code from NDS to handle the better quality of data that the R15 is now receiving from Tribune. If they are.
GUI. Again I'd guess DTV started with the NDS code and made their own changes for viewing and language pleasure. Language? Yes. Remember while the UK and us speak English, we don't speak it the same. While screenshots from the Sky+ boxes look somewhat like the R15 they have many differences. I would also guess that DTV wanted to start migrating toward a common GUI "look" between its DVRs and non-DVR receivers. Thus start with the basics but make it your own.
SLs/TDLs. Don't know here. Would DTV start over or again start with what NDS already had build and has been working on since what, 1999 or 2000? It was released in late 2001. Some clues point to using the same code. TDL needs to be rebuilt every time the unit is reset. Could also cause problems again with the level of guide data available to the R15 versus the SKY+ if my guesses above are close.

That's just a quick list off the top of my head and what may still be NDS code running and what could be new or modified. As it's been mentioned, we can just keep rubbing our fingers to the nub as we don't know Jack about what's gone on between NDS and DTV. But, with the minds here, I'll bet we can come up with a pretty good guess, which may also explain why there are some features lacking from the R15 and why some bugs exist. While most may see this thread as useless, our guessing at what DTV developers have done, in conjunction with what we see in our use of the R15, just might get someone...somewhere that may stop in for a quick read an idea or two. Well, either that our we end up with nubs for fingers and join a freek show. :grin:

Does anyone know if the SKY+ have dual live buffers? From what I saw on one page, it actually has 4 tuners. Is that correct?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Very nice post Wolf, some excellent digging there. I would guess that you are correct and this is a Hybrid of old and new, I would think that DirecTV didn't start with building an OS. Doesn't make much sense as you have boxes already running an OS that is somewhat mature.

Yes I would agree there are probably many parts that are new or heavily modified to fit what DirecTV needs. In this case it's possible that many of the issues we see are likely caused by the new code using one method while the older code uses another method and these two methods stepping on each other.

I wish I knew someone who actually used a real NDS box now so we could compare notes.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Nice post Wolf,

I'll throw a few more things in.

Access card: This has been NDS area for a vary long time, so nothing new there.
Guide Data: Also an area that has been NDS dominated with their EPG. They use various partners in various areas of the globe.
Dual tuners: Just two tuners untill you get to the Media Center...only one live buffer. I wish that were not true.

Clint, if you want to look at someone that is using a "real" NDS box, check out a mirror  . Seriously, as far as using a Sky+ box, there are a few at TCF and Dan Collins over at AVS that come to mind...


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Nice post Wolf,
> 
> I'll throw a few more things in.
> 
> ...


I honestly think it's a hybrid box, I was talking the actual NDS Sky+ boxes. I have read about them on the net and seen screen shots and such. Whie they seem to share some issues, we have issues they don't and the other way around.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I honestly think it's a hybrid box, I was talking the actual NDS Sky+ boxes. I have read about them on the net and seen screen shots and such. Whie they seem to share some issues, we have issues they don't and the other way around.


But that is the point of NDS. They use their very well-defined conditional access (smart cards, etc. to prevent piracy, content protection). The middleware (EPG, etc) customizable to the customer specification -- the "skin" that the end user sees when using DirecTV or Sky+, etc. Then XTV just offers a PVR experience that is integrated with the rest of the NDS offerings.

The GUI and EPG are flexible to let the content providers differentiate themselves, and offer end users a consistent DirecTV or Sky "feel" with whatever set-top-box they are using. One would have to expect the XTV PVR software is what it is (with different skins for different providers). But, if DirecTV wants to dig down in that (XTV) code to try and have a more stable product -- then more power to them.

In the end that would be of more value to NDS than DirecTV. But me -- I still like DirecTV and want the most that a DVR can offer...so who cares how we get there, let's just get there.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

morgantown said:


> I still like DirecTV and want the most that a DVR can offer...so who cares how we get there, let's just get there.


I honestly couldn't agree more. In the end I want a stable product that does all of the major things correctly. More toys are just gravy for me.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Clint Lamor said:


> I honestly couldn't agree more. In the end I want a stable product that does all of the major things correctly. More toys are just gravy for me.


Yea, good luck explaining that to my wife -- she is not as "patient" as me. Took her about fifteen minutes to start companing about the R15.

"Why does the pause not work right...how come the FF does not work right...etc."

Somehow I think there are many other TiVoholics in the same boat as her. OTOH, most people have never even _seen_ a TiVo -- let alone become spoiled by it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

morgantown said:


> Somehow I think there are many other TiVoholics in the same boat as her. OTOH, most people have never even _seen_ a TiVo -- let alone become spoiled by it.


Oh Lord I know. The first Tivo I got was one of those, what ta F??? is this? Waste of $$$. Then she wanted her own cuz mine was recording the stupid stuff I wanted. Then, once I could get them networked, ok, get a couple more so we can record more. Now we have discussions with her family and she cannot understand how they continue to watch live TV. Neither do I.


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## nneptune (Mar 30, 2006)

ericm31 said:


> That's exactly how my #3 receiver arrived also. Also, kinda ticked me off that I got a "re-furb" unit, considering my original unit was brand new. I just hope that maybe since it's refurbished, that it will have all the problems fixed.


I agree. I received my R15 new a couple of months ago (after 9 years with DISH)..
Somehow it got screwed up, a technician came out and declared it "broken".
It was reported to Dtv, and they said they would send out another unit. I asked if it was new or a refurb. They told me it would be a refurb.
I asked them that since my R-15 is generally new, why I have to inherit someone else's ex-broken problem.
They told me it was policy. I say it's BAD NEWS!
It better arrive decently packed, or I'll moan some more until they give me something free (or new)....Yeah right!


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

HEY what happened to my thread??   all this detailed tech talk, sheesh! :hurah:



morgantown said:


> Yea, good luck explaining that to my wife -- she is not as "patient" as me. Took her about fifteen minutes to start companing about the R15.
> 
> "Why does the pause not work right...how come the FF does not work right...etc."
> 
> Somehow I think there are many other TiVoholics in the same boat as her. OTOH, most people have never even _seen_ a TiVo -- let alone become spoiled by it.


Your wife sounds like my gf, she hadn't even had TV for a few years (seriously!), and I'm ashamed to say I have made her a TV/DVR addict :eek2: and a good portion of the timers set up on the new Dish box, and the old R15 assortment  are hers.

And morgantown, I did find out tonight that Dish DOES have a sports package which includes all the sports channels, so I won't miss my ballgames 

Since this thread is wandering all over the map anyhow, I'll say that I do miss some of the R15 features, but don't miss the instability. And, as my gf put it, the 625 is a bit more intuitive to operate. So a bit of give and take, I like some things about the 625 better, some about the R15 better. Bottom line is, the 625 WORKS! Well, <crossing my manipulative digits> SO FAR!


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack, thanks for the examples. I think I'm finally have a better understand of what is going on behind the scenes.

Morgantown, do you know if the Media Center can have more than 4 tuners? Is the Media Center something they are using on the other side?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

masterwolfe said:


> HEY what happened to my thread??   all this detailed tech talk, sheesh! :hurah:
> 
> Your wife sounds like my gf, she hadn't even had TV for a few years (seriously!), and I'm ashamed to say I have made her a TV/DVR addict :eek2: and a good portion of the timers set up on the new Dish box, and the old R15 assortment  are hers.
> 
> ...


The R15 worked at first too. :lol:


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

Clint Lamor said:


> The R15 worked at first too. :lol:


Oh SHUSH!!! :grin:


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Morgantown, do you know if the Media Center can have more than 4 tuners? Is the Media Center something they are using on the other side?


When they refer to Media Center it is usually the Windows PC, and really no different than here. I have yet to see a reference of a deployed "HomeNet" as NDS calls it (a.k.a. Media Center, as DTV refers to it) on Sky+. Just the same talk of "thinks to come." Same with the "to go" products (portable viewers).

XTV HomeNet offers the following advantages:
* Eight simultaneous PVR sessions from one server
* Pre-integrated middleware, conditional access, and EPG
* Extended content protection throughout the home with SVP™ (Secure Video Protection)
* Connectivity through wired or wireless IP networks
* Communication with peripheral devices
* Cost-effective deployment with thin client STBs and centralized smart card
* Launch pad for interactive applications including multi-room games, photo albums, and music jukebox

That is directly off of the NDS site (as you probably have seen). No specific mention of the # of tuners, but you can infer.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

So the Home media thing is still new to every one then. I just remember seeing that VOOM demo a while back and thinking that was a pretty cool idea. It's pretty much what I want out of my DVR/TV experience. Having one server and installing thin clients, being able to acess anywhere in the house, pausing in one room and playing in another, etc.

Is there any provider out there that offers this solution that works with ditigal cable or sat?


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

masterwolfe said:


> And morgantown, I did find out tonight that Dish DOES have a sports package which includes all the sports channels, so I won't miss my ballgames


Just curious, do you mean the sports packages, i.e. MLB Extra Innings, NHL Center Ice? If not, I hope you understand that the sportspack (or whatever dish calls it) that has all of the fox sports channels will not get you out of market pro games of any sport. You may get a couple of additional teams that are somewhat local to you, but you won't get AZ baseball games if you live in GA.


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## Mavrick (Feb 1, 2006)

Man this thread has gotten way off topic of how a refurbed reciever was packed and shipped


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Mavrick said:


> Man this thread has gotten way off topic of how a refurbed reciever was packed and shipped


Check posts 36 & 37...


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

skaeight said:


> Just curious, do you mean the sports packages, i.e. MLB Extra Innings, NHL Center Ice? If not, I hope you understand that the sportspack (or whatever dish calls it) that has all of the fox sports channels will not get you out of market pro games of any sport. You may get a couple of additional teams that are somewhat local to you, but you won't get AZ baseball games if you live in GA.


It did on D-TV, at least pre-season, and it appears to on Dish, going by Guide info, for instance watched part of a Red Sox game on NESN, and right now a Colorado/Chicago game is on CSCN........ on Dish it is called the Multi-sports package and it SEEMS to be what I want, can't afford any of the big dollar ones


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## skaeight (Jan 15, 2004)

masterwolfe said:


> It did on D-TV, at least pre-season, and it appears to on Dish, going by Guide info, for instance watched part of a Red Sox game on NESN, and right now a Colorado/Chicago game is on CSCN........ on Dish it is called the Multi-sports package and it SEEMS to be what I want, can't afford any of the big dollar ones


Yeah, unfortunatly you will only be able to see pre-season out of market games. Preseason games are usually in the clear. Regular season games will be blacked out w/ the exception of any teams that claim your area as a local market.

You will however be able to see all of the MLB games during the first week of the season and I believe one week in July when Extra Innings has a free preview week. Other than that, the sportspack / multi sports packagess are good for...um...do you like poker or maybe best damn sports show?


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

skaeight said:


> Yeah, unfortunatly you will only be able to see pre-season out of market games. Preseason games are usually in the clear. Regular season games will be blacked out w/ the exception of any teams that claim your area as a local market.
> 
> You will however be able to see all of the MLB games during the first week of the season and I believe one week in July when Extra Innings has a free preview week. Other than that, the sportspack / multi sports packagess are good for...um...do you like poker or maybe best damn sports show?


Hey masterwolfe, I'd rethink that R10 decision if I were you (told 'ya I was DirecTV biased ).

Hope it all works out, either way.


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## masterwolfe (Feb 7, 2006)

LOL well I called D-TV this morning and cancelled. And, I'd GUESS that it'd be the same with them as Dish? So I guess I'll be calling and cancelling the darned sports pack if that is the case  cause no, not a poker or BDSSOTV fan :nono:


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