# "Limited Recording" Message for PPV Movie



## OA-Trader (Nov 9, 2004)

My wife does a few PPV movies every month. She just came across a message on the purchase confirmation dialog box that says "Limited Recording" in yellow. The movie is _P.S. I Love You_, which starts showing on May 6th.

I searched the threads and only came up with something for D* about limiting the amount of time you have to play the movie once you start to watch it.

Does anyone know if E* is starting this practice?

Thanks for your help.

Tony


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Apparently. There has been discussions of DRM limits on PPVs (and theoretically other content) since the beginning of the year. Looks like we're about to see the PPV limits enforced.

It seems to start 5/6 with the 5am showing of P.S. I Love You on channel 502+ and 531 HD - giving a 24 hour window to watch before November 30th.

One Missed Call on 510+ gives a 24 hour period before October 31st.
I Am Legend on 523/524 gives a 24 hour window before 9/13/08.
The Mist on 529/530 gives a 24 hour window sometime before 7/23/08.
August Rush on 532 HD gives 24 hours before 9/6/08.

The rest seem unlimited. At least the messages are clear.

PPV is apparently becoming more "per view" ... they are giving you the chance to record it days (or months) before viewing but once you start watching selected movies you have to finish in 24 hours. 

With the recent price change I don't see this helping PPV sales ... but control is what the copyright owners want!


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

All things considered, IF the selection were the same as you can get from Netflix or Blockbuster rentals... people might not mind this model since today they have to pay for a period of rental for those too. PPV also is like mail-order in that you don't have to use gasoline to pickup or return the movie.

I don't like it... but I can understand it. Now if they start trying this with other programming from premium channels or regular channels, that would start a firestorm of a backlash.


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

I just rented Bee Movie for the kids. That will be my last PPV if they start this practice. If you guys accept this, they will do it. If you just stop renting PPV, they will not implement it for very long. The power is entirely in the customer's hand. 

On the brightside, it will save me some money. 

Oh Crap! There's a bunch of guys in black suits and sunglasses running up my driveway with Dish Network Secret Service on their backs...gotta go!


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## Sat4me (May 13, 2006)

Its time for us (the consumers) to take a stand. I won't buy any more PPV if this is the case. IF we all do that, they will soon come to their senses, I think.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

Calvin386 said:


> I just rented Bee Movie for the kids. That will be my last PPV if they start this practice. If you guys accept this, they will do it. If you just stop renting PPV, they will not implement it for very long. The power is entirely in the customer's hand.
> 
> On the brightside, it will save me some money.
> 
> Oh Crap! There's a bunch of guys in black suits and sunglasses running up my driveway with Dish Network Secret Service on their backs...gotta go!


Dish doesn't have a choice in implementing this. This comes from the distributors not the providers, hence the reason you see Direct having to implement it as well.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

I guess you have to consider what PPV means... Pay Per View.... not Pay Once and View Forever. This type of PPV is already common on most cable systems, I really doubt they will stop doing it.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

This is just more Hollywood content control, the same seems to apply to movies you rent from Apple on their Apple TV or iTunes if you happen to want to watch a movie on your computer. I cannot recall if there is a time limit to begin watching it, though once you start, you have 24 hours to finish it. The supposed workaround at least on AppleTV is to pause it, then you can resume after the 24 hour window, though I would not want to trust this "feature" every-time, or on anything else you may rent.

The prices on most of the PPV's on Dish or anywhere else are way too high. You can rent from Netflix and if your prolific movie watcher and turn things around quickly, you can make a rental cost around a $1 a movie. Even Blu-ray's from Netflix are reasonable for now.

You can go to Redbox now in slews of places and get movies for $1 a night, though you do have 24 hours to watch if you don't want to get charged another $1. They say no late fee's, well, thats sort of true I guess, unless you get there after the drop off time and now your rental is $2 instead of one.

The convenience factor of PPV is being washed away by price increases and limitations. These ID-10-T's in Hollywood would make (IMHO) far more $$ if they had a reasonable rental fee or PPV fee, because it would entice far more people to do it, but no, they think that just because a movie at the theatre is now $9-10 a ticket, a PPV of a recent release or rental should cost 1/3 or 1/2 that it seems... 

There should also be some sort of scale, based on reviews, box office, that will lower the prices of some rentals based on some level of popularity. While this can be really ambiguous of course, some movies new or not, are not worth a full price rental.


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

Slamminc11 said:


> Dish doesn't have a choice in implementing this. This comes from the distributors not the providers, hence the reason you see Direct having to implement it as well.


True but it goes from the consumer straight up the ladder. If no one purchases PPV then Dish will no longer buy it from the distributors.

As a consumer, you get exactly what you will accept. This is true in all buisness.


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## Slamminc11 (Jan 28, 2005)

Calvin386 said:


> True but it goes from the consumer straight up the ladder. If no one purchases PPV then Dish will no longer buy it from the distributors.
> 
> As a consumer, you get exactly what you will accept. This is true in all buisness.


Your inference in your original post is that it is coming from Dish,


Calvin386 said:


> If you guys accept this, they will do it. If you just stop renting PPV, they will not implement it for very long. The power is entirely in the customer's hand.


and:


Calvin386 said:


> Oh Crap! There's a bunch of guys in black suits and sunglasses running up my driveway with Dish Network Secret Service on their backs...gotta go!


 and not the distributor which is what I was pointing out.


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## puck (Feb 29, 2004)

This practice is exactly why I stopped buying Comcast on Demand movies at my other house.

You rent a movie at 6:00 PM, something comes up and you can't finish the movie. You don't get home from work until after 7:00 the next day and you have to buy the movie again. No chance.

I was one of the pioneer subscribers to Netflix. Looks like I'm heading back.


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## Directv superwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

OA-Trader said:


> My wife does a few PPV movies every month. She just came across a message on the purchase confirmation dialog box that says "Limited Recording" in yellow. The movie is _P.S. I Love You_, which starts showing on May 6th.
> 
> I searched the threads and only came up with something for D* about limiting the amount of time you have to play the movie once you start to watch it.
> 
> ...


the movie networks decided that consumers where enjoying the movies to much and to often for the 3.99 to cover the true cost of paying tom cruise 25 million for standing in front of a green screen so all movie ppv not wrestling or adult just movies will disappear in 24 hours


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Directv superwoman said:


> the movie networks decided that consumers where enjoying the movies to much and to often for the 3.99 to cover the true cost of paying tom cruise 25 million for standing in front of a green screen so all movie ppv not wrestling or adult just movies will disappear in 24 hours


I am happy to see that on E* at least it is not all movies yet, and the 24 hour countdown does not start until the recording is first started. I recomend that we all try to only purchace movies without the limits maybe then they get the message.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

James Long said:


> Apparently. There has been discussions of DRM limits on PPVs (and theoretically other content) since the beginning of the year. Looks like we're about to see the PPV limits enforced.
> 
> It seems to start 5/6 with the 5am showing of P.S. I Love You on channel 502+ and 531 HD - giving a 24 hour window to watch before November 30th.
> 
> ...


I see on my guide where in yellow it says limited recording but, where on your guide do you see the "watch by" date listed?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I would not mind this much if we start to see more "same day as dvd" releases or even "same day as theater releases" like what Mark Cuban is proposing.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

jclewter79 said:


> I see on my guide where in yellow it says limited recording but, where on your guide do you see the "watch by" date listed?


Press the order button. A detailed screen comes up with all the restrictions that apply to that movie, before you actually have to pay for it.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Directv superwoman said:


> the movie networks decided that consumers where enjoying the movies to much and to often for the 3.99 to cover the true cost of paying tom cruise 25 million for standing in front of a green screen so all movie ppv not wrestling or adult just movies will disappear in 24 hours


You've got the right idea. We're paying for three things - high priced stars, expensive special effects, and extremely high marketing expenses. If you want these things, you'll have to pay for it. I generally won't watch most of Tom Cruise's recent movies.

And I really have no idea how long I'll be able to watch the HD movies I've recorded from the $10 a month premium channels and stored on my EHD.

On the other hand, I can watch the Independent Film Channel featuring award-winning independent films in wide screen (but not HD yet) as a second-tier cable channel without DRM and put those movies on DVD without noticeable loss of quality. Of course nobody paid $8 for a Coke when they didn't appear in the theaters.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

Not saying I like or support it, but I understand it for PPV.

Consider that PPV is, in many ways, intended to be similar to the theater experience. At a movie theater you pay for a ticket and you watch the movie once. In order to watch again you have to pay again. Some theaters sell tickets in advance and some theaters will let you use a ticket for an earlier show at a later show the same day if you couldn't make the early showing.. but you get one chance to watch once you enter the theater and they tear your ticket. You can't bring the stub back if you decide to take a bathroom break and miss the movie. You can get a refund if the projector breaks or something extreme happens.

PPV is meant to really be the same thing... pay once, watch once... with the exception of those "all day" deals where you pay once and can watch any airing that day. They never intended or wanted you to keep them, it just took a while for technology to catch up so they could put more restrictions.

Now if they tried to implement this on other non-PPV channels... I'd have a big problem with that. But for PPV? It seems reasonable to me if the studios want this kind of control over an intended pay-once-watch-once event.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

And you can buy a DVD or BluRay if you really want to watch the movie again and again (though sooner or later it likely will be recycled on some second-tier movie channel maybe even in HD a few years from now).


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

This is completely coming from Hollywood, and all carriers will be in the same boat soon. PPV was originally intended for people before DVRs were even on the market, and those people won't be affected by this in any way... If you subscribe to premium channels, PPV has been kind of a joke for a while anyway, because it only takes about a month or maybe 2 after PPV that movies show up on premier channels nowadays. Its not like the late 80's and early 90's when it took over a year for something to come out on VHS and then months after that before it hit PPV and then months after that to hit Premium channels, etc... Things change...


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

I wouldn't count on no additional DRM rules being announced ... perhaps a "no record" policy on certain channels or "no play after" dates being added - even to Premium channels such as HBO/Cinemax. The content owners are getting tools to enforce their desire for CONTROL.

I would count on the "rules" being as clear as they are on the affected PPVs (at least via DISH). The good news in this IS the notification on the actual events. It isn't like people are going to buy these movies with no warning that they won't last forever on the storage.

Now that the content owners are getting control, it comes down to how much their content is worth. Is it worth $4.99 to watch a PPV within 24 hours and not be able to see it again (without renting it again)? That depends on the individual and their common practices.


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## compubit (Jun 8, 2004)

(Slightly off topic, since it involves non-satellite)
My parents have AT&T U-Verse in Dallas. They recorded the John Adams mini-series on HBO on the DVR and want to archive it. I have a DVD-recorder at their house, but AT&T has the record-inhibit bit set in the signal for HBO, Cinemax, and Starz (not Showtime, the Movie Channel or Flix....), and some PPVs are also record inhibited (but others aren't).

Jim


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

HDMe said:


> Not saying I like or support it, but I understand it for PPV.
> 
> Consider that PPV is, in many ways, intended to be similar to the theater experience. At a movie theater you pay for a ticket and you watch the movie once. In order to watch again you have to pay again. Some theaters sell tickets in advance and some theaters will let you use a ticket for an earlier show at a later show the same day if you couldn't make the early showing.. but you get one chance to watch once you enter the theater and they tear your ticket. You can't bring the stub back if you decide to take a bathroom break and miss the movie. You can get a refund if the projector breaks or something extreme happens.
> 
> ...


That's very weak connection - you can't compare quality of video and audio in movie theaters with home TV sets. Count also comfortable chairs and popcorn .


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

P Smith said:


> That's very weak connection - you can't compare quality of video and audio in movie theaters with home TV sets. Count also comfortable chairs and popcorn .


Who was comparing quality of audio and video? I was merely comparing the pay-once-watch-once aspect of PPV similar to the movie theater purchase.

Although with that in mind... a nice clean HD PPV compares favorably in my house to a scratched up movie at the local theater sometimes... and popcorn is cheaper made at home + my chair is a lot more comfortable AND I can pause for bathroom breaks without missing anything.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

I never did purchase PPV until I got the DVR, matter of fact that was the value of PPV it was a dollar cheaper than on demand and I could keep it on my hard drive as long as I wanted too.


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## geoff (Jan 3, 2004)

No to sound silly, but doesn't PPV stand for PAY PER VIEW, which means you should pay for it every time you watch it, it's not PTR (Pay to Record). If you want to watch it 500 times, Use your DVD recorder, or get out the old VHS machine and record it when you watch it!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

geoff said:


> No to sound silly, but doesn't PPV stand for PAY PER VIEW, which means you should pay for it every time you watch it, it's not PTR (Pay to Record). If you want to watch it 500 times, Use your DVD recorder, or get out the old VHS machine and record it when you watch it!


Nope. It doesn't means change rules during a game is right business. And it was your personal opinion having no value to the case.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

geoff said:


> If you want to watch it 500 times, Use your DVD recorder, or get out the old VHS machine and record it when you watch it!


Options that may go away in the future as DRM is implemented further.



P Smith said:


> Nope. It doesn't means change rules during a game is right business. And it was your personal opinion having no value to the case.


The rules of the game are SET on a daily basis. Sometimes those rules are the same as the day before. There is no contract guaranteeing that PPVs will be freely recordable and never expire forever. When you make the purchase is the point where you make the agreement.

On Monday, no doubt, someone recorded a PPV that remains on their hard drive and will be viewed as many times as they want whenever they want until it is removed from the hard drive by the user. At that moment in time the rules were set to allow that. On Tuesday certain movies had a restriction ... clearly stated on the screen as "limited recording" with the exact terms of the contract (expiry date and 24 hour viewing window once playback is started). The rules are now set for those movies.

The rules have not changed for movies recorded Monday or two years ago ... the deal remains the same. The rules are just set differently now (for certain content).


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

We as customers will receive exactly what we will accept. If we do not accept these terms they will be removed.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

I would doubt that the terms will be removed in the foreseeable future. I had cable for 7 years previous to E* and they had the 24hr. view window on PPV during that whole time. Within a years time the majority of E* customers will have forgotten there ever was unlimited viewing and new customers will never know it existed.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Calvin386 said:


> I just rented Bee Movie for the kids...If you just stop renting PPV...


I'm still trying to figure out just how one goes about "renting" a PPV. When I'm done, to whom do I return my PPV?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

geoff said:


> No to sound silly, but doesn't PPV stand for PAY PER VIEW, which means you should pay for it every time you watch it, it's not PTR (Pay to Record). If you want to watch it 500 times, Use your DVD recorder, or get out the old VHS machine and record it when you watch it!


What is the difference between your burned dvd and my copy on a hard drive?


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

I can't remember the last time I bought any PPV - it had to be before we got our 625, though.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

jclewter79 said:


> What is the difference between your burned dvd and my copy on a hard drive?


Don't know about him, but in my case it would be picture and sound quality - not as good on the recorded DVD.


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

HobbyTalk said:


> I would doubt that the terms will be removed in the foreseeable future. I had cable for 7 years previous to E* and they had the 24hr. view window on PPV during that whole time. Within a years time the majority of E* customers will have forgotten there ever was unlimited viewing and new customers will never know it existed.


That is because the cable customers accepted the 24hr PPV limit by continuing to purchase the PPV's.

If E* customers continue to purchase the PPV's with the restrictions, E* will keep the limits in place. If E* customers stop purchasing PPV's with viewing restrictions, The limits will be removed.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

Doubtful. What I would expect is that eventually there would be less stuff available as PPV.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Calvin386 said:


> That is because the cable customers accepted the 24hr PPV limit by continuing to purchase the PPV's.
> 
> If E* customers continue to purchase the PPV's with the restrictions, E* will keep the limits in place. If E* customers stop purchasing PPV's with viewing restrictions, The limits will be removed.


The choice is not E*s, it is a requirement of the programmers. E* held out as long as they could and was one of the last to impliment it. If they wouldn't have they would not be able to contrinue to offer PPV at all.... it has been well known that this has been coming for a number of years. Obviously the programmers are willing to accept a slight decrease in buys (if there really is a decrease) since it has been implimeted for years through other providers.

PPV patent from 1991 - http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5479508-description.html


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## J. Black (Apr 1, 2008)

Tony was this PPV movie purchased 'on-demand'? Do you have a wireless connection to your reciever?


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

phrelin said:


> Don't know about him, but in my case it would be picture and sound quality - not as good on the recorded DVD.


You are right bout that but, what I meant is that what is good for to goose is good for the gander. You should not be allowed to burn to a DVD if you are not allowed to save to a hard drive. I'll bet that soon you will not be to burn it to a DVD either.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

jclewter79 said:


> You are right bout that but, what I meant is that what is good for to goose is good for the gander. You should not be allowed to burn to a DVD if you are not allowed to save to a hard drive. I'll bet that soon you will not be to burn it to a DVD either.


That is already the case for some movies if you are using a newer burner. Some older burners do not pay attention to the flags.


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## twilliam69 (Jun 9, 2007)

jclewter79 said:


> You are right bout that but, what I meant is that what is good for to goose is good for the gander. You should not be allowed to burn to a DVD if you are not allowed to save to a hard drive. I'll bet that soon you will not be to burn it to a DVD either.


Has anyone tried to burn a movie that said limited recording without getting an error?


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

twilliam69 said:


> Has anyone tried to burn a movie that said limited recording without getting an error?


Good question. If you had a HD burner with an HDMI input, the day will come. But if you can now use the S-Video out, it'll probably work if you don't mind SD.


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## scooper (Apr 22, 2002)

HobbyTalk said:


> That is already the case for some movies if you are using a newer burner. Some older burners do not pay attention to the flags.


Possibly - I don't think PC tuner cards are following this yet, though.... I know I have means to record MPEG2 files to burn to DVD


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

I know that I once tried to record a movie from HBO directly to my burner via s-video... it wouldn't let me. My understanding is that they use maybe Macrovision or some such copy protection.

Ahhh..... maybe this is it - http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...protection-coming-to-a-download-near-you.html


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## Kheldar (Sep 5, 2004)

HobbyTalk said:


> I know that I once tried to record a movie from HBO directly to my burner via s-video... it wouldn't let me. My understanding is that they use maybe Macrovision or some such copy protection.


http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/faq/cgmsfaq.shtml:


> *HBO Copyright Protection Background*
> HBO includes a technology in its program services that provides copyright protection information to consumer electronic equipment connected to analog outputs of cable and satellite set-top boxes. The technology (CGMS-A -- Content Generation Management System for Analog) enables compliant digital recording devices to abide by federal digital encoding rules.
> 
> In accordance with the federal encoding rules, HBO and Cinemax subscribers are still able to make a single copy of HBO and Cinemax linear programming, but are not able to make any copies of HBO-On-Demand or Cinemax-On-Demand programming.


more information on CGMA-A copy protection on wikipedia


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## Unclejeff (Mar 10, 2004)

Aw shucks....most of the PPV stuff I record late at night I gotta wait in the morning to watch..after the wife goes to work...and gets deleted before she gets home, anyway.

for the rest, there is Netflix.


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## Calvin386 (May 23, 2007)

HobbyTalk said:


> Obviously the programmers are willing to accept a slight decrease in buys (if there really is a decrease) since it has been implimeted for years through other providers.
> 
> PPV patent from 1991 - http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5479508-description.html


In other words...The customers have accepted these terms by continuing to purchase the PPV's with limits.


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