# Continuing discussion of Austin, TX KTBC-DT reception



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Just moving this into its own thread since I think the issue may be related only to Austin and not some global Fox problem.

Anyway as I noted in the other thread http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=73419 ...

To quickly recap, I theorize that the problem is actually a distortion harmonic caused by overdriving the 622 preamplifier with the extra-strong KVUE signal, which was interfering with KTBC just due to the frequency of the harmonic and nothing else. So I built an antenna with two dipoles tuned to just KLRU and KNVA frequencies (the "dual dipole"), since they are the weakest channels and also this skips over KVUE and should result in far lower signal level from KVUE getting into the 622. At first it worked gorgeously ... getting KTBC-DT in the 85+ signal levels and consistent performance, and knocking KVUE down to the mid 80s as well.

Last night something happened while my 622 was recording 24 and I got a bunch of dropouts on 24. Then after I watched 24 (about midnight or so) I just tuned to the channel to see what it looked like live and it was constantly dropping (not the yellow screen drop, but pixelating and skipping audio). Signal levels were the same as before when it was working great.

I still had my bowtie antenna ("bowtie") set up in the same position as it had been working for a few weeks with zero problems, so I figured, maybe my new antenna is not really fixing anything so I moved the cable back to the bowtie. That gave me constant dropouts with the yellow screen, far worse. There was no direction I could turn that antenna to get it to work. So the dual dipole is definitely better but it's not an instant cure.

Just adding some data to these experiments, I tried it with and without the attenuator. After working with it for a while I found that the direction of the dual dipole is not nearly as linear as the bowtie ... it kind of doesn't matter what direction you turn it except some positions are very peaky. The physical position of the antenna was a lot more important (room placement, now it's sitting on top of my left speaker). However, the big difference was the cable going to the antenna. Someone noted that they could pick up KTBC-DT with just the unterminated coax but that is kind of counter to good antenna theory. Since the unterminated coax is still shielded, the center conductor should be remotely immune to RF. However any RF engineer knows that the quality of shielding is generally lower the higher you go in frequency ... or more specifically, a braided shield is ineffective at higher frequencies like maybe the frequency where KTBC-DT is broadcast.

I noticed that the position of the cable really affected the signal quality A LOT. You touch it, move it, breathe on it, KTBC-DT screws up. So the shield is really not working very well. The wire is very reactive. So it is imperative to keep this wire as short as possible and if possible use a foil-shield cable to connect your cable to improve the shielding. I also suspect maybe there is a shield termination problem on the 622 which could contribute to this (haven't cracked it open but shield termination and grounding is a very difficult RF problem to solve). If the cable is picking up KTBC-DT by itself then it certainly presents a phase problem to the 622 when connected to the antenna as well, which would look and feel a lot like multipath.

Once I removed the long cable I had in between my antenna and the 622 and instead plugged in the shortest possible run of cable and fixed it so it could not move, then most of the problems went away, but I still had to be real picky about the position of the antenna, which I think is really the position of the cable connecting to the antenna.

So ... I guess my theory still stands, KVUE is at least a part of the problem IMHO. So far, picking up KVUE efficiently totally screws up KTBC-DT reception pretty much no matter what. So either you have to fine-tune the rig so that KVUE is attenuated as much as possible without dropping out the other channels (which is a very narrow range of gain/attenuation), or you have to use an antenna that stinks at picking up KVUE but is good at picking up the other channels such as the one I built. However, I also think there are other issues complicating it with respect to cabling selection, position, and maybe the 622's ability to terminate the cable shield at the upper end of the UHF band.

What's inexplicable to me so far is why it changed yesterday during 24 recording. There was no software download and nothing else changing as far as I know. Maybe the weather was affecting it (it was very humid/misty and this changes the air impedance and therefore changes the antenna tuning). Otherwise, I really don't know.

In any event, this is really an OTA tuner [hardware] design problem, if my theory is correct. Whether the hardware has software-controllable features that have not been implemented (such as a band-pass preselector in the receiver device), I don't know. If so, then maybe software update could help this issue. The shield termination issue won't be fixed by any software but in my case, it might be fixed by my soldering iron


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

I've given up on watching FOX HD until Dish starts carrying it in Austin  

I've tried attenuating until Fox is somewhere between 68-72 and I still get the audio skipping and visual artifacts every couple of seconds. Last night just for kicks I tuned to it and my signal strength was down to 66 and the show was solid for the few minutes that I watched. Seems sad to live within 10 miles of the towers and have no hope for watching OTA :nono2:


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

I vote you crack yours open and figure out what's going on...

There's definitely something more than just the signal strength of KTBC or just the signal strength of KVUE causing the problem (or, the 'signal' strength as shown by the 622 isn't accurate). Sometimes, getting KVUE below 100 'fixes' KTBC regardless of KTBC's strength. Sometimes, getting KTBC below 75 'fixes' it regardless of KVUE's strength. Sometimes, I can have KVUE in the 80's and KTBC in the 70's and still have dropouts. 

I'm still convinced it's software/firmware fixable, though. The facts as I know them:
- Things worked OK prior to November
- Fox made some changes - things started messing up
- Similar problem exists for Fox channels in several different markets
- HD Tivo owners experienced similar issue, fixed with firmware update
- 211 owners in the Austin area experienced similar problems, reported latest firmware update fixed his KTBC issue
- Tuner hardware in the 622 is standard stuff other makers use - nothing proprietary to Dish - and those components work fine in other applications

Those data points cause me to believe it's something that can be resolved through firmware updates. 

My biggest concern is whether Dish sees this as a problem. Their standard response is that they 'can not guarantee reception of channnels they don't provide' - fair enough but when I -can't- get reception even though everything else indicates that I should means they should work on it, imo.

I'm optimistic given we've seen issues of changes to OTA reception (both good and bad) on the 211 with the latest firmware release. Best case would be that the delay to the new firmware on the 622 was a result of them finding the issues with the 211's OTA and the 'new' firmware fixes it all. I can dream, can't I?


----------



## lujan (Feb 10, 2004)

I think this issue should be posted on a local forum instead of this general forum where most of the people are not from Austin. Try avsforum.com.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

we are also talking about it on the avsforum.

however, this is a problem specific to the VIP622. it's just as valid to post here as it is over on avsforum.

i too hope that new software fixes it because it's a pain to have to goof with the antennas all the time. building TV antennas and debugging RF problems is not exactly my favorite hobby. but the only local TV shows we watch regularly are on Fox, so I'm just working on this out of my own personal necessity.


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

lujan said:


> I think this issue should be posted on a local forum instead of this general forum where most of the people are not from Austin. Try avsforum.com.


The problem is with the 622 (other tuners have no problems here) and thus its in the 622 support forum. I appreciate the thread being here. The fact that Austin is clearly stated in the thread title should be enough to prevent someone not from Austin from unnecessary reading.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yep.. this is the right place for this type of thread. I appreciate Mr. 72 providing a recap of the details and like I said in a earlier thread. Lets keep these type of threads DMA specific so we don't intermix the issues.


----------



## zlensman (Jan 15, 2006)

Well, I'm glad I found this thread (and the prior one linked above). I had also given up watching Fox KTBC in HD on my 622. It had worked before because I remember watching 24 season 5 in HD without any dropouts or signal loss. I kept adjusting my indoor antenna to try and get the highest signal strength on KTBC, but no joy.

Yesterday, I found these thread(s). I grabbed out the inline attenuator that came with my 622, and put it between the OTA antenna and the 622. The signal strength on KTBC dropped into the low 60s, but the signal locked in solid! I recorded the Simpsons and 24 in DT/HD. No dropouts or blackouts. Lucky me -- it worked on the first try. BTW, I'm near Pflugerville, zip code 78660.

The attenuator has lowered the signal strength on all the other channels, but they all still lock in except for KAKW (Uni) which was already in the low 60s before. This is not a big deal to me, since I don't speak Spanish. I'd rather have Fox than Univision!

I hope the problem -- wherever it is -- is fixed soon so that everyone in the greater Austin metro can get KTBC and I can take out that attenuator.


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

So I guess its a game of how low can you go. I had limited success with the 68-72 suggested range but last night 66 was solid for me.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

I think any signal in the 60s will work but really it's a side issue. Attenuation is a crude solution that might work intermittently but doesn't address the root issues at all.

I think the root issue is KVUE. You need to attenuate JUST that channel. The reason attenuation works is because you are attenuating KVUE. If you're lucky, you can attenuate it to the point where KVUE is low enough, but other channels are high enough that you can still pick them up. This is a lot easier if you just attenuate ONLY KVUE.

That's my theory anyway. I don't have enough info to prove it right or wrong and hopefully I won't ever et enough info because some software fix in 4.01 will fix it by the weekend!!


----------



## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

Mr. 72 I think you meant *KVUE* on that last post, right?


----------



## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

> - 211 owners in the Austin area experienced similar problems, reported latest firmware update fixed his KTBC issue


I found this very interesting because I can report that the attenuator is still working on my 622 but I never got around to putting one on my 211 downstairs. Imagine my suprise when I found it was working well without it. But this post explains why potentially. Tonite I will look at the 211 out in my shop that is not hooked to a phoneline, if this is what happened then it should not work on Fox 7, right? The upgrades come over the phone, don't they?


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Nope.. updates come over the dish.. It is not because you 211 has not been updated. But plot thickens.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

jas88 said:


> Mr. 72 I think you meant *KVUE* on that last post, right?


yeah you are right ... i'll edit.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Last night there were constant dropouts during AI for the first half hour or so. What a pain this is! Here's to hoping 4.01 magically fixes it.


----------



## jas88 (Feb 8, 2007)

OK, I agree, updates must come over the dish, because the shop 211 is also working just fine and has the same software version as the one in the house that is hooked up to a phone line. Whatever they did, it definitely fixed the problem on both of my 211s. Why can't they do this to the 622?


----------



## cwc (Jan 28, 2007)

I also have a 211 in addition to the 622 and both are tapped connected to the same OTA antenna. Since the latest sw update on the 211, KTBC is much better, not perfect yet, but better. I have yet to see the the signal go to zero like it used to, and still does on the 622, but I haven't seen a yellow page loss of signal warning. What ever was changed in the sw certainly helped but I still get occasional pixelation.

CW in CP


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

Considering the 211 used to exhibit this behaviour and was at some point fixed lead me to think there is hope for the 622.

Does anyone know if Dish is aware of the problem with the 622 in Austin? I imagine emails reporting problems like this are pretty much ignored, but maybe Dish corporate policy is better than most.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Well, if you call and talk to a tech support rep at Dish, and you tell them about the issue with KTBC in Austin, I bet their response will be, "really? wow! this is the first we have heard of it! let me file a report.". And of course this issue has been reported to them many times but I think either they are ignoring it completely (unlikely) or the support reps don't have any clue what issues have or have not been reported (more likely).


----------



## brantlew (Mar 19, 2007)

I originally posted this in the "OTA dropout" thread but just found the new Austin specific thread.


Excellent analysis Mr 72! This is a really annoying issue for us Austinites and I think you have really nailed it. I live in South Austin (Slaughter/Manchaca) and have also gone through a series of antenna installations to try and resolve my reception issues. Same story here - I've got the 622 and a roof mounted DB2 with all my reception levels above 78 and Fox at 95 but with frequent drops. I don't want to attenuate everything because I easily lose KNVA 54 once it drops into the low 70's so the selective attenuation of KVUE seems to be the best solution. I don't mind constructing a custom antenna but I am not much of an RF engineer. Can you post a how-to for constructing your custom antenna tuned to UHF 22 & 49. I know it involves cutting and attaching metal elements tuned to specific frequencies but I would feel much more confident just following a guide written by someone who knew what the heck they were doing. I think this would help a bunch of us here in Austin.

Thanks.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

OK, if 4.01 doesn't fix it, then I'll whip up a how-to.


----------



## Traveler62 (Nov 20, 2006)

Does this station transmit the Gemstar TV Guide data or does anyone know of a list of stations that do? The station I have trouble with (KCPT) does and just curious if theres a link. Most Public TV stations have the contracts for TV Guide, but I noticed on a partial list of Texas, there was a CBS channel being used. The list didn't mention Austin.


----------



## UT_Texan (Dec 9, 2004)

With L401,
looking good thus far this morning. Watched Fox for 15 minutes no dropouts, no pixellation, no audio issues. Not conclusive but definitely promising.


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

YEA! Now if i could only get L4.01 on at least one of my 622s like i was supposed to last night!!!


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

well i'm not on the L401 list and my reveiver is not in the right range so tough luck for me for a coupla weeks i guess. but alas with my tricky antenna, it's working pretty solid for me. FOX is solid but KNVA is iffy with the attenuator.


----------



## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

Just to confirm. I got the new 4.01 beta software for my 622. 
I had major problems with KTBC7- FOX before the download.
FOX is now solid! No problems with any break-ups. All other stations are (still) solid as well. I'm in the Pflugerville/Round Rock area.

I hope they leave the OTA stuf as-is, now that it is all working.


----------



## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

Just got a nice note from "Bugs" at E*. They thanked me for my beta report and confirmed that "we have gotten several reports that Austin OTA's are better, good to know".

They really are reading these reports!


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

Yep - same here. I recorded '24' OTA last night with no attenuators and it worked great. First time I've been able to do that.


----------



## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

A strange thing just happened. 

The Beta fixed my KTBC, but broke the "Tricks" features.

Tonight when I came home my KTBC was having problems locking again. However, the "tricks" stuff on my receiver was working better. I suspect that I may have taken a new download last night or today. 

Are others having problems with KTBC today, after having it fixed with the beta???


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok guys.. Lets get this clear... L4.01 is not beta. The call Mark made was not for Beta Testers. The call was for people to be included in the first wave of downloads to provide feedback Dish can use to determine to stop or continue rolling out. I am sure this list was used in conjunction with call center feedback etc. 

Ok.. also.. If you have L4.01.. You have what you had before. Dish would never upload another L4.01 secretly to your box. Just does not happen.. You have the same software you had when L4.01 just hit your box. Something external is either creating your new experience or some other reason but it is not because you got a new download. 

Sorry for being blunt Scooters.. My intention is not to pick on you. .. This comes up a lot so wanted to be pointed. 

L4.01 was never a beta.. 
Only one L4.01 exists in the wild. 

Ok... Hopefully this clears things up..


----------



## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

Ron: I understand. My problem is that the box was doing one thing right after the early "beta" download and is doing a different thing today.... How do it do that?
Yes, it could be atmospherics, but I don't think so. Yes, the Trick stuff feels different than yesterday. Yes, I did a reboot before and after I had the newest problems, etc. 

Even if it is the same version, I still think that it is possible that they sent the 4.01 to me again. I assume that the beta was targeted toward my specific receiver. I also assume that the main rollout was sent to a number series of receivers- mine wasn't "excluded" and it was sent the software again.

If I did get the download a second time, is it possible that is "took"differently in my specific box during the second load?

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I'm here to learn.

I posted here to see if any of the others in the (so-called) beta release have found the same thing. 

In any case, I've updated the beta-bugs folks. I got a frendly response to my initial bug report. It will be interesting to see how they respond to my update.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

most likely the difference in your reception is weather-related. mine varies hugely based on weather conditions. that's why any solution on this box that requires the signal levels to be in some narrow range is unacceptable, since that will require re-tuning on a daily, or sometimes hourly, basis.

when the air changes (mostly moisture content, sometimes temperature, and certainly rain or fog), then the tuning of the antenna changes, at both ends (transmitter and receiver).


----------



## Grandude (Oct 21, 2004)

Scooters said:


> Ron: I understand. My problem is that the box was doing one thing right after the early "beta" download and is doing a different thing today.... How do it do that?
> Even if it is the same version, I still think that it is possible that they sent the 4.01 to me again. I assume that the beta was targeted toward my specific receiver. I also assume that the main rollout was sent to a number series of receivers- mine wasn't "excluded" and it was sent the software again.
> 
> If I did get the download a second time, is it possible that is "took"differently in my specific box during the second load?


I would expect that once a box gets the download, a flag is set in the box so it will no longer take that download. Otherwise, all boxes would be getting a new download all the time.

Now, maybe those of us that got on the beta list actually got a slightly different download than the rest of the 'normal' users and that flag didn't get set, so when the normal 401 download came to our series, it then downloaded the 'normal' 401 software. But I doubt that this is so......

Hopefully someone in the know will answer this inquiring question!


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

As of last night, my FOX OTA reception was still working great with 4.01. Signal strength in the lower 90's with no drop outs.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Grandude said:


> I would expect that once a box gets the download, a flag is set in the box so it will no longer take that download. Otherwise, all boxes would be getting a new download all the time.
> 
> Now, maybe those of us that got on the beta list actually got a slightly different download than the rest of the 'normal' users and that flag didn't get set, so when the normal 401 download came to our series, it then downloaded the 'normal' 401 software. But I doubt that this is so......
> 
> Hopefully someone in the know will answer this inquiring question!


Yeah... I can assure you that there is not two version of L4.01.. L4.01 is L4.01.. I am sure Mark will correct me if I am wrong in my conclusion. Having different versions of the same code based would be a logistical nightmare and something embedded software development orginizations would not do. Seen enough pushes to know Dish definitely would not do this.

As to Scooters experience. One thing I have notice in the past is that sometime a release takes a few days to settle on a receiver. It acts flaky then goes away? Why? really not sure, but it is not because a secret update occurs. I think it is more likely something in side the box did not get reset properly and overtime it gets worked out. That is why I usually suggest if after a download things act flaky try a hard reset (Pull power cord, wait about 10 minutes and plug things back in).

Well that is my take on what possible scooters experience could then again it could be something else. Is it possible the his 622 felt something was wrong and re-downloaded the image, but I doubt it. If you look at the counters in the diagnostic section I believe there is a previous version counter. I would expect that to show L4.01 if the box was reimaged. I am pretty certain this is not the case, but checking the counters for the previous version should clear the doubt up.


----------



## pjm877 (Apr 27, 2003)

well I was watch some of the idol and all good an lock. I get 100 for Sig level. 

I did confirm that what ever they did fixed the 622 as my 942 still has the problem.. I passed that along to the pre-release people. 

And as I understand it ... this was in no way anything to with a BETA. It was a pre-release, what testers would call a "Release Candidate".. no big problems... Ship it.  

now if they would port that fix over to the 942... it would be great... 

later


----------



## Scooters (Mar 15, 2003)

I got another reply from the Beta-Bugs at E*. 

They confirm what you are saying, that there was no second "push" of the release and there is only one version of the software out there.

They advise that they are sorry I am having the problem and that engineering is aware of it and working on it.

As I played with the unit some more last night, I found that the "Tricks" weren't much better than they were when I first got the release. However, the FOX 7 signal still is unusable.


While I am unhappy that I'm having the problems, I do feel that there is someone at Dish who is aware of the isses and is working on them.... Time will tell. I really apprecitated their reply e-mails, rather than feeling like my comments/concerns went into the "black hole" of customer support.


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

For the folks still having issues with KTBC after 4.01, where in Austin are you located, what signal levels are you getting and what kind of antenna are you using? I'm curious to see if there's any commonality to the problem.

4.01 fixed KTBC for me - or at least it's been working without the need of antenuators from Friday through the last time I looked at it last night. I'm in NW Austin - 620/2222 area about 7 miles from the antenna farm. I'm using a 'Silver Sensor' indoor antenna mounted in the attic. My signal levels for KTBC are 90+.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

i'll let you know once 4.01 makes it to my 622.


----------



## pjm877 (Apr 27, 2003)

Live 620 / 183 near lakeline mall... in the Anderson MUDD dist.

I have a Winegard Platinum HD Antenna model HD8200p mounted on a Pole outside the house ponted at 170 deg. I am getting 100 on the 622 for DTV 56 (KTBC-DT) at 10.1 miles from transmitter, and major drop outs on the 942. The Mits WS-65813 has never had problems after KTBC changed the transmitter or increased the power. 

I can even get get one of the temple stations but it being only 57 it has major weather related problems. 

later


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

anyone lose Fox in Austin recently? I was having some issues this past weekend but assumed it was because of the bad weather.

Last night I could not tune in Fox at all. I live less than 10 miles from the towers in SW Austin. I usually get the signal somewhere between 70-90 strength, and I usually mess with the antenna until I get it somewhere near 70 as it seems more stable then. However, last night I couldn't pick it up at all. Very odd...

Just thought about it though, I didn't try re-scanning. I only left it on that station (with the error message) and kept messing with the antenna, I think at one point I briefly picked it up, but couldn't lock.

Man, I hope I get an update soon that fixes this. That and DISH finally gets locals in HD here.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Well, all I can say is this. The problem with KTBC in Austin (and maybe related to KVUE) is a major pain, but shows all the signs of being an analog problem because it fluctuates so much with weather and other conditions. The weather in Austin has been herky-jerky to say the least over the past couple of weeks. Rain, thunderstorms one day, dense fog and mist all day another day, sleet the next day, then 80+ degree temps and bright sun. You know all of these conditions are different conditions for RF transmission and with a wideband antenna it will affect different stations in different ways.

For example, if the air density increases (cold), then you need a longer antenna to tune a channel. If the humidity goes up, you need a shorter antenna. Since KTBC is near the top end of most UHF antennas' ranges, then when the humidity goes up you are going to just lose signal level. Then when the temperature AND humidity go up, you will lose it even more.

So, it sounds like 4.01 may not have fully fixed the problem, right? Well if it's an analog problem, then software has slim odds of fixing it (but at least, some odds).

PhantomOG, are you on 4.01 or still on 3.66?

I have had to do a lot of tweaking of position, direction, and attenuation of my antenna to keep KTBC working consistently since the weather started to flip out. Since my antenna is built especially to avoid KVUE, sometimes I cannot get KVUE and when the weather is damp, I cannot get KNVA at all. So for this weekend to get the Spurs game on ABC, I will have to switch to my bowtie, and then quick switch back to the duallie to get the pilot of "Drive". This problem really sux! If they would just give me 4.0x then I could maybe determine if that fixes it, and if not, design a better solution than the one I am using now.

BTW Technikal, do you know anyone who lives in Steiner Ranch?


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm still stuck on 3.66 unfortunately.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Well then I think you are still having the same problem as before. The range of tuning for signal strength where KTBC works is very narrow and nearly impossible to get to work reliably. It needs to be about 68-73%, below 68% and you get intermittent drops and pixelation and over 73% you lose lock pretty frequently unless you work REAL HARD to make sure you don't pick up KVUE. I think your signal level can fluctuate 10% based on humidity and temperature alone, depending on your antenna.

The rub is that the solution to the varying signal level problem is to use a good broadband antenna like a bowtie. Unfortunately that picks up so much of KVUE that it exacerbates the KTBC problem. But the solution I employed, which is to make a no-KVUE antenna, results in wild fluctuations in signal level and if I get KTBC to work solidly all the time, then the other channels lose lock frequently. It's a no-win. Looks like 4.0x fixes it but breaks a bunch of other stuff, so again, lose-lose.


----------



## sxhat (Mar 2, 2007)

The attenuators are working well for me. Thanks Mr.72 for the recommendations. I agree with you about the weather fluctuations but the 39dB attenuator locks in KTBC for me the majority of the time (although I lose KNVA 54 completely). 

Until things stable out on the 4.0x release, I happy staying with my 3.66. I look forward to the map down feature but the problems with skip forward/back would drive me nuts.


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

72,

I'm a stone's throw away from steiner ranch. 

i've not had a single issue with Fox (or any of the austin stations) since 4.01. i'm using an inexpensive indoor antenna RCA (model ANT146) from Walmart ($13)

multiple checks of 4.03 all day today reveal consistent signal strengths to what i was getting with 4.01.

I check and recheck signal strengths ALL THE TIME (think addiction), and i havent noticed changes in strength that correlate to the weather yet.

KTBC 95%
KLRU 82%
KVUE 100%
KXAN 95%
KEYE 100%
KNVA 95%

now if i could just get 4.03 on my 2nd 622!


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

FYI -

Looks like most (all?) of us have 4.03 by now. It seems to fix the problems I saw with KTBC. I plugged my bowtie back in, get all channels over 85% now and no dropouts at all on KTBC. Last night with my dual dipole I was not able to get KVUE or KNVA at all but KTBC was solid as a rock, signal quality about 70% with the attenuator.

Anyway, looks like it might be fixed. I'll keep an eye on it. Two Spurs games are OTA on KXAN and KVUE over the weekend while I'll be out of town so we'll see if I get them solid when I get back.


----------



## cwc (Jan 28, 2007)

I now have 4.03 and it appears to have fixed my KTBC-DT problem, although I have not had extensive testing time yet. I use a directional antenna in my attic and after using different amplifiers with no success, chose to wait it out and not install attenuators. When my 211 was upgraded a month or so ago and it fixed the OTA problem, I had high hopes for E* on the 622. Looks like they have don it, Hooray for them.

CW in Cedar Park


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

can't wait to get home from work and see if I've got 4.03 and if it fixes Fox for me.


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

cwc said:


> I now have 4.03 and it appears to have fixed my KTBC-DT problem, although I have not had extensive testing time yet. I use a directional antenna in my attic and after using different amplifiers with no success, chose to wait it out and not install attenuators. When my 211 was upgraded a month or so ago and it fixed the OTA problem, I had high hopes for E* on the 622. Looks like they have don it, Hooray for them.
> 
> CW in Cedar Park


4.01/4.03 has totally fixed KTBC-DT for me, too. My fear is that, based off the postings that I've read from others around the country, 4.01/4.03 seems to have messed up many people's OTAs. Fix some, ruin others...I suspect E* is going to have to further tweak the software to arrive at some sort of compromise. I expect that we may experience issues with KTBC-DT again, if E* has to jack with it further.

At least I'm happy for now.


----------



## greg97ap (Apr 13, 2007)

So has anyone continued to have KTBC problems after getting 4.03?

My 622 recieved the upgrade on Thursday and I tried out FOX 7 and I still get dropouts every 5 or 10 seconds. My signal strength shows High 80's to Low 90's.

Was there anything else I would need to do to make that signal work with the new software?


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

greg97ap said:


> So has anyone continued to have KTBC problems after getting 4.03?
> 
> My 622 recieved the upgrade on Thursday and I tried out FOX 7 and I still get dropouts every 5 or 10 seconds. My signal strength shows High 80's to Low 90's.
> 
> Was there anything else I would need to do to make that signal work with the new software?


Ok, I did have a few issues later yesterday afternoon where I thought the the problem might not be fixed. It was sporadic, mainly when my signal was under 90.

I have two 622s, got 4.01 as part of the 'beta' release, and never once have had a problem on that 622 with Fox, but my signal strength has always been around 95 on that 622. Not a single problem with either 4.01 or 4.03 on that 622 (and I had Fox on for hours Wednesday to confirm).

When I noticed the problem on my 2nd 622 (that went from 3.66 directly to 4.03 yesterday) was when my signal strength on Fox dropped to the 70s. I admit to messing around with my indoor antenna on that 622 yesterday to see what I could do to get better strengths on all the stations.

When I readjusted the antenna (and did a check switch - system was getting check switch errors, but probably from me bouncing around from channel to channel very rapidly), Fox remained around 95 and breakup ceased and has been stable since.

My opinion is that Fox seems to be working fine w/o breakups when signal is at least 90+.

If any of you want to chat with me further, PM me, and I'd be happy to call to discuss.

Hey, any of Austinites happen to be using outdoor antennas diplexed with your E* signal? Thinking about doing it here, but worried that doing so might seriously degrade my E* signal strengths. Would be great to hear your experiences...


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

My FOX OTA reception has been stable with both 4.01 & 4.03.


----------



## greg97ap (Apr 13, 2007)

Thanks for the reply. Actually Thursday afternoon there were many dropouts but for some reason Friday, I was getting KTBC with a signal in the 90's and no dropouts after watching for a 1/2 hour. 
So hopefully things are working. 
I mainly was worried it wouldn't be fixed in time for Football season because that would not be good if NFL on FOX wouldn't work in HD. 
Lets just hope it doesn't break again before then.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

The signal should not have to be in the 90s. I also have gotten dropouts with 4.03. I have not had a chance to diagnose or experiment. This is with my bowtie antenna and no attenuator. Might switch back to the "skip KVUE" antenna and see how that does.

See ya-


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

OK I moved stuff around and checked it out etc. It's definitely better but I still think KVUE signal is causing a problem. The no-KVUE antenna makes things work much better and I still get KVUE at over 90% (KTBC about 85% really solid). The only thing is I can't consistently get KNVA but I may be able to fine tune the position of the antenna and get it to come in.

So I think there may still be something wrong, but it's much better.


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

I have yet to have a problem on my 622 that got the original 'beta' 4.01 release (and has since been updated to 4.03).

The only time i had issues with my 2nd 622 that went from 3.66 directly to 4.03 on 4/12 
was for a brief period on the afternoon of 4/12. Both have been rock solid for KTBC except for that brief period on 4/12.

I'm not using an attenuator antenna, just an RCA cheapie on one tv, and, actually, the UHF antenna that dish provides for the UHF remote on the other tv!


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

KTBC-FOX in Austin is losing lock intermittently on me today, right here as I type this. It recorded "Drive" last night without more than just a few occasional hiccups.

'24' coming up tonight. We'll see how it goes!


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

72,

When I saw your post, I tuned into KTBC at 5:33pm to about 6pm, and I didnt get any drop-outs during that time. Not sure if you were still getting them during this 27 min period...

My signal strength at that time was 95-96%. Just thought I'd add my observations to yours.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

yeah KTBC worked without a hitch all evening last night so maybe it was just some temporary problem.


----------



## TechniKal (Nov 4, 2003)

24 and AI has recorded perfectly for me from KTBC OTA the last few weeks.

The only breakups I see on anything are 'Planet Earth' - which seems to lose a 1/2 second of video/audio every 30-40 minutes. For some reason, '24' recorded off A&E HD off the same 129 sat work just fine.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

I have seen the same breakups on PE.. Might be a stream related issue. Rob and I actually did a content comparison and it appeared that the breakups were happening in the same location on a episode we checked.


----------



## jhr2112 (Dec 31, 2006)

Just got the new software update 4.01 , Fox is fixed! I will say that Dish Network needs to work on training their Tech support and keep them up to date. I called 3 times and every time they acted like they had never heard of this problem which you would think would be in the account notes. My business sells Dish as a sideline and I'm amazed at how bad the tech and activation service are. I wish they would move those services back to the US.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

well, FWIW, I don't think it's "fixed".

If you have a good broadband antenna and an amplifier enough to get the signal levels for all channels to 100%, then Fox is still not going to come in consistently. There's still a problem there, but it's very much improved with 4.03 and probably "fixed" for the majority of users in Austin.

I cannot get KTBC to come in consistently with my bowtie antenna. I have to use the antenna that skips over KVUE. With the bowtie, all channels come in over 90% but KVUE is 100% and I think it is overdriving. With a broad band antenna, you still may have to use attenuators or whatever to knock KVUE down enough to where it doesn't interfere with KTBC, but the range of usable operation is about 10x as wide now as it used to be with 3.6x. However it is still very difficult with a broadband antenna to get both KVUE attenuated enough, and also still get KNVA to come in at all.


----------



## FitzAusTex (Jan 30, 2007)

72,

My KVUE is ALWAYS at 100% (as usually is KEYE), and I am not having any issues with KTBC since 4.01/4.03 (other than on 4/12 while i was changing out/repositioning antennas.) I've got Fox at 95%, PBS at 82% NBC at 95% and CW at 95%, yet I'm not using an antenna that 'skips' over KVUE to my knowledge.

I'm not disputing that you're still have some issues, but i'm not really sure why you're arriving at the conclusion that just because your bowtie isnt working for Fox, that only an antenna that skips over KVUE is the solution. It may be so, but not necessarily, Have you tried antennas other than the bowtie and the KVUE skipping ones? I'm using two indoor antennas and not having issues with either of my 622s.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

Fitz,

I'm pretty certain KVUE is one big cause of the problem. KVUE comes in at my place at well over 95% even with an antenna built specifically to avoid it. It dropped 20% signal level between the bowtie (broadband antenna) and the antenna built to skip KVUE while the signal level of KTBC and KLRU increased when switching antennas.

So, the thing is, the meter maxes out at 100%. So let's say I put an attenuator on there with my bowtie and I get KVUE at, say, 95%, KTBC at 75%. Now I take out the attenuator and KVUE is 100%, KTBC is 95%. KVUE is in the middle of the bowtie's band. So either the 622 is attenuating ONLY KVUE (which I am pretty sure it's not), or KVUE signal quality is really OVER 100%, as in, overdriving.

It's my theory that KVUE overdriving the 622 is one major cause of trouble with KTBC reception. KVUE NOT overdriving the 622 will not be a major cause of trouble. So if in your case, KVUE is not overdriving, then it will not be a major cause of trouble 

This condition was improved with 4.01 but not fixed 100%. 

You could make everything work reliably with 3.66 but it required a very narrow range of attenuation, antenna direction, and signal level to get it to work. With 4.01/3 the range of attenuation, antenna direction and signal level required to get them to work correctly is much, much wider. Likely wide enough to cover nearly all installations.


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

anyone else in Austin who's OTA gone to crap lately? I can't figure out what the problem is, but all my channels are much weaker than they used to be.

Fox in Austin is VHF right? not UHF?

My old indoor antenna just doesn't seem to cut it anymore, I need to start looking at new options. When the heck is Dish gonna get us locals in HD?


----------



## HotRod19579 (Jul 31, 2004)

PhantomOG said:


> anyone else in Austin who's OTA gone to crap lately? I can't figure out what the problem is, but all my channels are much weaker than they used to be.
> 
> Fox in Austin is VHF right? not UHF?
> 
> My old indoor antenna just doesn't seem to cut it anymore, I need to start looking at new options. When the heck is Dish gonna get us locals in HD?


I have always had problems with Fox in Austin. It is constantly breaking up. I have a 722 and on somedays I am able to receive Fox with no issues but on most days it is breaking up. All of my other OTA channels are great. 
I recently bought a new TV with a built in HD tuner. Although through the TV it doesn't break up as bad as the 722 it is still bad enough where you can't watch it.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

PhantomOG-

HD channels in Austin are all UHF, including Fox. It may LOOK like channel "7" but that's just mapping for a digital channel. I think it's really channel 56.

Ever since I began using my "skip KVUE" antenna Fox has come in perfectly for me. I get signal level 100 and it works without a single failure. However sometimes I have a problem with KNVA, because their signal is very weak. I don't watch any channel except KTBC most of the time from OTA. Occasionally I'll hit KXAN for the weather but other than that, we watch House, American Idol, 24 (if it ever comes back on but all year last year), etc. all with OTA and the DVR and it works absolutely 100% without a single failure in over a year.

Ever since I sorted this out by changing my antenna I quit bothering to check on the KVUE signal level. However I think it's still over 95% even with my antenna designed to skip it. I have used that channel many times for sports events lately and it works fine.


----------



## kpaustin (Jul 18, 2007)

Just adding my experience...Austin OTA HD locals on my two 622's seemed to get worse a few weeks ago (I had the rabbit ears and were constantly messing with them), so I invested in a DB2 that feeds both and is attic mounted. I now get 100% (as per the banner) on FOX, ABC, and CBS, and constant 92-93% on NBC and well as CW (54). I'm essentially at 620 and 2222, so about 8 miles NW from the transmitters. Antenna is mounted in first story attic of two story house - I have a slight view towards Austin.


----------



## Mr.72 (Feb 2, 2007)

the reason "rabbit ears" didn't work is because that's a VHF antenna and ALL of the Austin HD channels are UHF.

a cheap bowtie from Radio Shack just stuck to the back of the TV would work fine for you.


----------



## kpaustin (Jul 18, 2007)

Mr.72 said:


> the reason "rabbit ears" didn't work is because that's a VHF antenna and ALL of the Austin HD channels are UHF.
> 
> a cheap bowtie from Radio Shack just stuck to the back of the TV would work fine for you.


I should have been clearer...they were VHF dipole and rotating UHF loop combination antennas. I could always get at least ONE channel 100% with them, but would need to rotate it just a bit when tuning in a different channel. Now with the DB2 I can be lazy again.


----------



## PhantomOG (Feb 7, 2007)

Wow... I've suffered with a Philips MANT510 antenna attached to the VIP622 for a long time, thinking all antennas would be the same. I did as "kpaustin" did and bought a DB2 antenna. Amazing difference. Now all of the local channels for Austin come in at 95+ on the 622. Even the CW which was previously unwatchable because it was so weak. Man, I should have bought this antenna a long time ago.

If you have reception problems in Austin, pick up a DB2, you won't be disappointed.

Now... when the HECK are we going to get HD locals direct from DISH so I can record two local shows at the same time in HD!!!!


----------

