# 721 Linux drive



## kyoo

Well, I got bored today and opened up my 721. I installed RedHat 7.3 onto a junker machine I had sitting around.

I didn't pull out the harddrive from the 721, as that would void my warranty because there is a sticker keeping you from removing the drive. So, I just set the 721 on top of my PC's open case and ran a power and IDE cable into it and onto the harddrive. I connected it as a second harddrive to my PC.

I booted up Linux from the primary drive and I ran fdisk on /dev/sdc, which is the 721's drive in this instance. It appears to be a Maxtor 4G120J6 ATA UDMA w/ 2048KB Cache drive.

"fdisk -l /dev/hdc" output shows the following:


Code:


Disk /dev/hdc: 255 heads, 63 sectors, 14946 cylinders
Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 bytes

   Device Boot    Start       End    Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hdc1             1        32    256000+  83  Linux
Partition 1 does not end on cylinder boundary:
     phys=(507, 15, 63) should be (507, 254, 63)
/dev/hdc2            32     14947 119804832    5  Extended
Partition 2 does not end on cylinder boundary:
     phys=(1023, 15, 63) should be (1023, 254, 63)
/dev/hdc5            32       163   1048792+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc6           163       294   1048792+  83  Linux
/dev/hdc7           294       310    131512+  82  Linux swap
/dev/hdc8           310     14947 117575608+  83  Linux

Unfortunately, it appears that these partitions are not ext2 or ext3, but xfs. XFS is a filesystem created by SGI for IRIX, to the best of my knolwedge after 3 minute search. I'm currently downloading an SGI installer for XFS for Redhat 7.3. Then I hope to be able to mount these partitions.

I might be able to get that done before stuff needs to record tonight, but I doubt it.. If not, I'll probably attempt again tomorrow during the morning/day.

Oh, the PCI looking slot on the main board of the 721 doesn't look like it'll fit a PCI card. It's much more similar to the VESA Localbus connector, but without the ISA part. Not sure what you'd put in there. It certainly won't be the size of a standard PC expansion board, though!

I'll have my digital camera tomorrow if you want zoomed in photos of something in particular.

Ciao!
-Kyoo


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## MarkA

Sounds AWESOME! I can't believe they used a partition format that anything can even recognize! Thank Charlie!


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## Jacob S

Interesting, I do not know much about computers, but what are all of the advantages of this?


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## Danny R

By itself, knowing the file format does nothing. Its just a first step. If the file format is simular to something already on the market, it just makes it all the easier to "hack" the device. The advantages of this are numerous. One could add a larger hard drive or second drive, increasing capacity. This has been done with Tivo's for some time now.

Also it may be possible to copy the video files off and store them elsewhere, freeing up capacity yet retaining the information.

And of course there are numerous other hacks one might want to make to increase functionallity, such as networking the units.


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## James_F

Just do a search for Tivo hacks (also a Linux format). Its amazing what some people can do with this stuff.


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## Jacob S

Is it legal to do this or not legal as long as you do not hack the access of the television programming?


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## James_F

I would assume its illegal to mess with the operating system of a 721. I know that Tivo frowns on it. They seem not to worry about upgrading hard drives as long as you don't change the operating system. Its also a violation of this site to talk about hacking the hardware/software.


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## Guest

I would hazard that "hacking" as the traditional definition defines it is well within the scope of this board as long as it does not allow illegal reception of programming.

"hacking" as the media defines it is really "cracking" and encompasses things like test cards, emulators, and other such nastiness.


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## James_F

Well if Dish says you can't modify the software, then that would be hacking. If not then who cares... I don't have a 721 to look at the "fine print", but I would assume that messing with the OS would be a violation...


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## bfennema

Hmm, so /dev/hdc1 is probably /boot, thought it is a little large for that so it might be the whole / partition. /dev/hdc5 and /dev/hdc6 might be / and /usr or /usr and /home, though i dunno what you'd need a /home for.

128 megs of swap.. anyone know how much ram the thing has?

/dev/hd8 is obviously the recording partition, and might not have any filesystem persay. 

The cool thing to do would be to enable USB network adapters, plug one in, create a user account, turn on telnetd, and log into your 721.

Personally, being able to log onto a PVR and set a recording I forget from work would be a really cool feature =)


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## Guest

The GPL license of Linux overrides any superceding license Dish might want to try. 

Of course the PVR app itself is most likely not GPL, so editing that could be a voilation of Dish's license, but I don't think they can legally stop you from mucking with the OS since it's GPL'd


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## James_F

You can modify your syetem all you want, but Dish doesn't want people messing with the system and then calling them because the unit won't boot. I'm sure Chris doesn't want Dish to harp on him for letting people trade this kind of info on his board. There are plenty of other places that have this stuff. If its out of warranty, then go right ahead. I've modified my Tivo to display caller id, but if it breaks, then thats my problem. 

A violation of Dish's agreement, not the Linux agreement. There a thousands of Tivo hack sites, but I don't think this board is the place to discuss hacking Tivos or 721s.


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## bfennema

He has yet to change anything (besides the IDE cable connection) so he can't be hacking =]


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *Well if Dish says you can't modify the software, then that would be hacking.*


Who cares what they say? If Ford says that it is illegal for you to look under the hood of the car that you BOUGHT, does that mean anything in the court of law? Absolutely nothing. If you are not stealing TV programming or pirating their PVR software (not sure why or how you'd want to do that), they can scare you all they want but they don't have a legal leg to stand on.

As for using known formats. Perhaps they've just finally figured out that it's not worth to spend the time and $$$ reinventing the wheel and coming up with a new filesystem because it will be hacked eventually anyway (as Tivo, Dishplayer and 501 cases have shown). And if you use a well-known, tested and proven journaling file system like xfs, you are also likely to avoid a lot of the racing condition bugs that have plagued Dishplayer and 501


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## Guest

BTW, speaking of GPL - has anyone yet gotten them to release their modifications to the Linux kernel? If there indeed where any - it's very likely that they just took some existing kernel release, wrote a bunch of drivers for their own hardware for it (they aren't obligated to release source for that, since they are dynamically linked in and Linus's license excludes them from the GPL requirements) and their own user-level software... Anyway, someone (preferably a 721 user who actually has some rights because of his purchase) should ask them about that


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## Jacob S

I would think that if they sell whatever you are trying to accomplish and that it would cost the company money if you would do such hacking, then it would be illegal, but if it would not cost them anything, and would be like a hobby or to see what could be done, then I would think it would be legal.


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## bfennema

You own the hardware... As long as your not stealing content or violating someones copyright, your not breaking the law.

You might break your warranty though =)


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Guest _
> *
> 
> Who cares what they say? If Ford says that it is illegal for you to look under the hood of the car that you BOUGHT, does that mean anything in the court of law? Absolutely nothing. If you are not stealing TV programming or pirating their PVR software (not sure why or how you'd want to do that), they can scare you all they want but they don't have a legal leg to stand on.
> 
> As for using known formats. Perhaps they've just finally figured out that it's not worth to spend the time and $$$ reinventing the wheel and coming up with a new filesystem because it will be hacked eventually anyway (as Tivo, Dishplayer and 501 cases have shown). And if you use a well-known, tested and proven journaling file system like xfs, you are also likely to avoid a lot of the racing condition bugs that have plagued Dishplayer and 501 *


You are confusing two issues. Yes the operating system is governed by the GPL, but the software that runs the 721 isn't. This isn' t like a car where you can change the air filter and get better performance. The hardware and software is copyrighted by Dish. You cannot modify it. Therefore you are hacking the system by adding features. If you just want to load a chess game up, there there is no problem, but if you modify the system so that the game shows up on the menu, then you are hacking it.


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Guest _
> *BTW, speaking of GPL - has anyone yet gotten them to release their modifications to the Linux kernel? If there indeed where any - it's very likely that they just took some existing kernel release, wrote a bunch of drivers for their own hardware for it (they aren't obligated to release source for that, since they are dynamically linked in and Linus's license excludes them from the GPL requirements) and their own user-level software... Anyway, someone (preferably a 721 user who actually has some rights because of his purchase) should ask them about that *


I think you'd be surprised how little they modified the kernel. I had seen a post on TivoCommunity talking about the modifications to the Tivo Kernel and not much was changed. They removed much of the system so it would boot faster, but as far as them changing it, they didn't do much. I'll try and find the thread later tonight.


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by bfennema _
> *You own the hardware... As long as your not stealing content or violating someones copyright, your not breaking the law.
> 
> You might break your warranty though =) *


I am sure they own the rights to the PVR software that allows the 721 to record, play and view the signal. You'd break the warranty and the law.


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *You are confusing two issues. Yes the operating system is governed by the GPL, but the software that runs the 721 isn't. *


First of all, I didn't even mention GPL in that post, so I'm definitely not confusing the two at all...



> *
> This isn' t like a car where you can change the air filter and get better performance. The hardware and software is copyrighted by Dish. You cannot modify it. Therefore you are hacking the system by adding features. If you just want to load a chess game up, there there is no problem, but if you modify the system so that the game shows up on the menu, then you are hacking it. *


Nope. I am sure that the design of the card is copyrighted and patented by Ford as well. Doesn't mean it is illegal for you to modify it. Now it would be illegal for you to change the air filter and then start building and selling these cars as your own models, just as it would be illegal for you to modify existing software and sell new copies of it as your own. It is NOT illegal for yout modify and tinker with it for your own purposes as long as your modifications are not helping you steal someone else's copyrights. There is absolutely no law the prevents you from doing that.


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> 
> You are confusing two issues. Yes the operating system is governed by the GPL, but the software that runs the 721 isn't. This isn' t like a car where you can change the air filter and get better performance. The hardware and software is copyrighted by Dish. You cannot modify it. Therefore you are hacking the system by adding features. If you just want to load a chess game up, there there is no problem, but if you modify the system so that the game shows up on the menu, then you are hacking it. *


Actually, if they were good little X-Windows programmers you may just be able to modify a resource file to add xboard to the menu =)


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## DmitriA

BTW, reading off data from the harddrive would not even involve modifying any of Dish's software, so I don't see how ANYONE can see that action as being illegal


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Guest _
> *
> 
> First of all, I didn't even mention GPL in that post, so I'm definitely not confusing the two at all...
> 
> *


Uh in your second post... Read it.



> *
> 
> Nope. I am sure that the design of the card is copyrighted and patented by Ford as well. Doesn't mean it is illegal for you to modify it. Now it would be illegal for you to change the air filter and then start building and selling these cars as your own models, just as it would be illegal for you to modify existing software and sell new copies of it as your own. It is NOT illegal for yout modify and tinker with it for your own purposes as long as your modifications are not helping you steal someone else's copyrights. There is absolutely no law the prevents you from doing that. *


It is illegal to modify the computer code. You could reverse engineer a chip, but if you hacked into the chip to change how much air was mixed in, that would be illegal. As I said, you could upload any software to the drive, you just can't hack into the code and modify it. Just because you don't profit from it doesn't mean its legal. Maybe your example is flawed.:shrug:


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by DmitriA _
> *BTW, reading off data from the harddrive would not even involve modifying any of Dish's software, so I don't see how ANYONE can see that action as being illegal *


Its not. In fact its the only way to increase your HD space. We are talking about changing the functionality of the receiver. Adding games, telneting it to record programs and the such. I think you'd void your warranty, but you can read the drive.


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by bfennema _
> *
> 
> Actually, if they were good little X-Windows programmers you may just be able to modify a resource file to add xboard to the menu =) *


Maybe, I'm sure they have modified it so you can't. But that said, I have a Tivo, not a 721, so I haven't looked at it.


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> 
> I am sure they own the rights to the PVR software that allows the 721 to record, play and view the signal. You'd break the warranty and the law.  *


I'm sure the MPEG decoding is all done in hardware =)

And changing their software would violate Echostars copyright (or at least trying to distribute the changes. I have no idea what the software license for the 721 looks like) =)

Now, upgrading the kernel to say, 2.4.19 for example wouldn't be breaking the law, but could quite possible really hose up your box the next time their is an update =)


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *Uh in your second post... Read it.*


Just did. Please tell me where exactly in it I showed any confusion between kernel and user-level code and its licensing?



> *It is illegal to modify the computer code.*


Mind backing that statement up with the exact reference to the law that make this action illegal?


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by DmitriA _
> *BTW, reading off data from the harddrive would not even involve modifying any of Dish's software, so I don't see how ANYONE can see that action as being illegal *


I'm certain the copyright owners of all the recordings you've made would like it to be illegal for you to read their recordings off the disc =)


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## DmitriA

> _Originally posted by bfennema _
> *I'm certain the copyright owners of all the recordings you've made would like it to be illegal for you to read their recordings off the disc =) *


Distribute it, yes, definitely illegal. Break encryption or other types of copyright protection to read it off (if they are indeed encrypted which is unlikely given that they are not on Dishplayer and 501), yes again. Barring those 2 cases, it is not (yet) illegal for you to do it.


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## James_F

Specifically, the DMCA states that as of Oct. 28, 2000, "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work." Further, the DMCA says the following: 

No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product service, device component, or part thereof, that - 
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work; 

(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work; or 

(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work. 

Therefore its illegal.


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *
> It is illegal to modify the computer code. You could reverse engineer a chip, but if you hacked into the chip to change how much air was mixed in, that would be illegal. As I said, you could upload any software to the drive, you just can't hack into the code and modify it. Just because you don't profit from it doesn't mean its legal. Maybe your example is flawed.:shrug: *


Ok, I have issues with your analogy =)

Thinking back to the good old days when instead of a single chip, you had a bunch of discrete components on a PCB. Cut and jumpering the board to change the air ratio would not have been illegal. How then would doing the same thing to the chip be illegal? It's just much smaller =) Heck, you could further continue onward to the point where it's not a chip, but software. How can the method of implementation affect the legality of the action? =)

(Not to say that tampering with anything that can affect the emitions of a vehicle isn't in itself illegal) =]


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## James_F

I was talking software. I was trying to work within "Guests" car analogy. Not a good one, I admit it. I would assume if the car manufacturer had security to keep you from modifying the chip, then I'd say it was illegal. If they post the instructions/code and give you implicit rights to do so, then no.


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *Specifically, the DMCA states that as of Oct. 28, 2000, "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work." Further, the DMCA says the following:
> 
> No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide or otherwise traffic in any technology, product service, device component, or part thereof, that -
> (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work;
> 
> (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work; or
> 
> (C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work.
> 
> Therefore its illegal. *


Nope. A and C do not apply here unless your modification is something that allows you to steal copyrighted broadcast (which I already said would be illegal). Again, DMCA makes it illegal for you to modify systems if your only purpose is to steal intellectual property. If that is not the case, it's perfectly legal.


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *Specifically, the DMCA states that as of Oct. 28, 2000, "No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work."
> 
> Therefore its illegal. *


I'm sorry to say, but machine code is not a technological measure that controls access to a work. Now if their software self-decrypted or something strange like that, then you would have a case for the DMCA.

Of course, I assume their license agreement does state that you can't reverse-engineer, disassemble, and probably a bunch of other legalise their software. And since your agreeing to their license agreement when you subscribe to their service it's not like most click through software license agreements and might actually be valid (of course, if you just bought a 721 to hack on and were not a echostar subscriber you could do whatever you wanted to the thing)


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *I was talking software. I was trying to work within "Guests" car analogy. Not a good one, I admit it. I would assume if the car manufacturer had security to keep you from modifying the chip, then I'd say it was illegal. If they post the instructions/code and give you implicit rights to do so, then no. *


That depends on the PURPOSE of the bypass. If the chip contains some copyrighted information about Ford's newest secret emmission control system and the sole purpose of your modification is to steal that info, then it is illegal. However, if you are bypassing the security to make a mod to the chip to make your own car go from 0 to 60 faster, it is perfectly legal


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## James_F

I would assume Charlie has the same or more security than the Tivo has. That was my assumption. 

I think when you start it up for the first time, it makes you accept the agreement, but its been so long since I've installed it, I can't remember. 

I know that Tivo has used the DMCA to shut down sites that crack its security. Expect Dish to do the same. This isn't a hack forum, so while reading the drive is ok, I'm sure that posting information on how to circumvent the security built into the 721 isn't.


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by bfennema _
> *Of course, I assume their license agreement does state that you can't reverse-engineer, disassemble, and probably a bunch of other legalise their software. And since your agreeing to their license agreement when you subscribe to their service it's not like most click through software license agreements and might actually be valid (of course, if you just bought a 721 to hack on and were not a echostar subscriber you could do whatever you wanted to the thing) *


If you violate DishNetwork's license, it doesn't make you a criminal. The only thing that DishNetwork can do is sue you in a CIVIL COURT for violating your contract. Whether they win or not is also questionable (well, in theory anyway - considering how much $$$ Charlie has and how many lawyers he can hire for that, you probably don't have a chance) since not everything in those shrink-wrap agreements is necessarily enforcable. For example, that kind of license can say that by buying this product you agree not to sue the company for any damage the product may cause you - that kind of disclaimer is pure b.s. and has been recognized by the courts to be so


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *I know that Tivo has used the DMCA to shut down sites that crack its security. Expect Dish to do the same. This isn't a hack forum, so while reading the drive is ok, I'm sure that posting information on how to circumvent the security built into the 721 isn't. *


*sigh*
Again, that depends on WHAT the security is designed to protect. If it protects intellectual property, yes DMCA makes your hack and distribution of the hack illegal. If the security is designed to stop you from upgrading your harddrive to a larger one (as is the case with PVR501), Charlie can go to hell - you are absolutely free to bypass that security and tell the world about it. No laws are being broken here as no intellectual property is being stolen


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## James_F

So if you commit a crime, but don't get caught you're not a criminal? 

Now you are correct about those agreements, but the Tivo and ReplayTV have set precidence. Maybe not in the courts, but not many websites have wanted to challenge them on it. I HATE the DMCA as much as anyone and would love to see a supreme court challenge!


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *So if you commit a crime, but don't get caught you're not a criminal?*


Here we go again :-(
Can you tell me exactly what crime you are committing (i.e. what law violating) if your modification does not allow you to steal any intellectual property but only, for example, allows you to use a larger harddrive? DMCA is not applicable for reasons I've already outlineda bove.



> [QB]Now you are correct about those agreements, but the Tivo and ReplayTV have set precidence. Maybe not in the courts, but not many websites have wanted to challenge them on it. I HATE the DMCA as much as anyone and would love to see a supreme court challenge! [/B]


I don't know much about the Tivo and ReplayTV hacks. What exactly have they done?


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## bfennema

> _Originally posted by Guest _
> *
> 
> *sigh*
> Again, that depends on WHAT the security is designed to protect. If it protects intellectual property, yes DMCA makes your hack and distribution of the hack illegal. If the security is designed to stop you from upgrading your harddrive to a larger one (as is the case with PVR501), Charlie can go to hell - you are absolutely free to bypass that security and tell the world about it. No laws are being broken here as no intellectual property is being stolen *


Never attribute to security what can be explained by programmer lazyness =)


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Guest _
> *
> 
> Here we go again :-(
> Can you tell me exactly what crime you are committing (i.e. what law violating) if your modification does not allow you to steal any intellectual property but only, for example, allows you to use a larger harddrive? DMCA is not applicable for reasons I've already outlineda bove.*


I never said you couldn't add a larger hard drive. I know I have with my Tivo. We were talking about modifying the software to allow access to digital files.


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## MarkA

"Who cares what they say? If Ford says that it is illegal for you to look under the hood of the car that you BOUGHT, does that mean anything in the court of law? Absolutely nothing. If you are not stealing TV programming or pirating their PVR software (not sure why or how you'd want to do that), they can scare you all they want but they don't have a legal leg to stand on."

In the free world, yes. But in America we have the DMCA which denies us our God-given right to look "under the hood" of our software as has been mentioned. It's sad really. And unconstitional.


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## James_F

Right, but until someone challenges it, you have to abide by it. Why put this forum in jepardy?


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## Guest

> _Originally posted by James_F _
> *I never said you couldn't add a larger hard drive. I know I have with my Tivo. We were talking about modifying the software to allow access to digital files. *


Well, it's sure as hell wasn't what I was talking about. Because what you are talking about is clearly illegal. But in the case of the Dishplayer and PVR501, that's not even necessary because the files are not protected in any form and thus no modification to the software is necessary. You simply figure out what the format of the files is (which is what people have done) and read them off.


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## bfennema

My question is, why would echostar care what you do to your box as long as your not stealing programming (which is where they make their money, correct?)


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## MarkA

Because they are run by corporate America. If you add a drive - it means they can't sell you a replacement with a larger drive (that's just one example of course)


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## MarkA

Plus, it should also be noted at another reason is that if you figure out the code just to add a drive for example, it means the hackers who want to steal programming have less work to do...


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## James_F

Because they have invested time any money into adding new features. Why would anyone upgrade to the new receivers if they could download updates from the internet? Let say Ecostar came out with a 730 which had broadband access. All the 721 owners would be angry, but they would have to upgrade to get the new featues. Put if someone hacked the software to allow you to use the internet with the 721, then why would you upgrade? I assume they will add internet free of charge, but you never know of other upgrades... If you let someone modify the software, then you open yourself up to DMCA violations.


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## DmitriA

> _Originally posted by bfennema _
> *My question is, why would echostar care what you do to your box as long as your not stealing programming (which is where they make their money, correct?) *


Well, it depends on the hack. If they hack is figuring out the format of the ifles on the HD and reading them off (no mods to software currently needed for that), they MIGHT care about it (haven't yet) because they don't want the programmers to be upset about their digital content winding up on Napster-like systems.
If it's a hack to have a larger HD, they DO care about it and have tried to technologically prevent it in the 501 because they probably want to sell more of their own PVRs that have larger HDs and also they don't want to waste support resources when HD hacks go wrong and people mess up their units (that's the official reason that they are giving, anyway)
If it's a hack to steal programming, well, it's obvious why they would be mad as hell to see you doing that...


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## DmitriA

> _Originally posted by Mark _
> *Plus, it should also be noted at another reason is that if you figure out the code just to add a drive for example, it means the hackers who want to steal programming have less work to do... *


Um, no sorry. one thing has nothing to do with the other. it is very easy to have a larger HD on the Dishplayer and to my limited knowledge it doesn't contribute one bit to hacking the smart cards on the DP


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by Mark _
> *Plus, it should also be noted at another reason is that if you figure out the code just to add a drive for example, it means the hackers who want to steal programming have less work to do... *


That is the big reason why Dish/Tivo/Microsoft don't want you messing with the software.


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## James_F

> _Originally posted by DmitriA _
> *
> 
> Um, no sorry. one thing has nothing to do with the other. it is very easy to have a larger HD on the Dishplayer and to my limited knowledge it doesn't contribute one bit to hacking the smart cards on the DP *


No, the frown on it. Look at the 721. It has a void warranty sticker on the drive. If you show people how to modify the software to add a drive, you are asking for trouble. Will the media companies sue the end user? No, they'll come after Dish.


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## MarkA

"Um, no sorry. one thing has nothing to do with the other. it is very easy to have a larger HD on the Dishplayer and to my limited knowledge it doesn't contribute one bit to hacking the smart cards on the DP"

Exactly BECAUSE it is so easy to add a hard drive. You don't NEED to figure out the software to do so. You just pop in a new drive - it automagically formats, downloads the software, and sets it up! Not so with the others which require you to learn more about the system


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## bfennema

The convergence of consumer electronics with personal computers makes this a nice gray area.

Upgrading things like processors, memory, and hard discs is considered perfectly normal for a PC.

721 - USB, x86, hard drive, video out.. Looks like a PC to me =)
It's certainly a whole lot more powerful than my first PC was.


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## DmitriA

> _Originally posted by Mark _
> *Exactly BECAUSE it is so easy to add a hard drive. You don't NEED to figure out the software to do so. You just pop in a new drive - it automagically formats, downloads the software, and sets it up! Not so with the others which require you to learn more about the system *


Um. I still don't see what the issue of upgrading HDs has to do with piracy.... But if you use your logic, Dish should make it as easy as possible for you to upgrade your harddrives, since that would eliminate piracy


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## MarkA

Yes, it would certainly reduce the potential for piracy. But not eliminate it. However, it would mean more support calls for upgrading hard drives and less people buying units with larger hard drives (look how many people kept DPs a long time after they would have replaced them if they couldn't upgrade the drive...)


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## James_F

Look, if Dish looks the other way, they are opening themselves up to litigation from media companies. A far more frightening prospect than John Smith who is bent because he can't modify the software.


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## MarkA

Of course, while touching the PVR software is a no-no, DISH is ALSO breaking the law by not releasing their modifications to the Linux kernel...


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## James_F

I doubt the Kernal modifications will amount to much. Tivo's isn't very exciting...


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## Craig Fogus

ROTFLMAO....I love your Avator Mark.  BTW, I love my new Widescreen. I'm really looking forward to the 921 to take full advantage of it. Sorry, a bit off topic.

FWIW, I doubt that Dish will say anything as long as you do not expect support from them if you "break the seal", don't try to steal anything or sell secrets, tamper with the hardware, or blame them for the thing taking over your house after you have modified it. I can hear it now, "Dave, I can't do that."


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## MarkA

Thanks for the nice avatar comments. It's rare I hear nice things on here.

What I think would be funny is if DISH isn't releasing their modifications because they built the smart card authentication right into the Linux kernel rather than the traditional seperate hardware. Then a court made them release it NO, DISH knows better than to do that - but it would be funny.


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## Jacob S

interesting. dont think dish would enforce the issue since they are breaking law themselves.


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## James_F

Dish doesn't own the Linux software, the licensed it from Broadcom. You'd have to contact Broadcom for the info.


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