# Should I try to negotiate with Dish? DirecTV would cost half what I pay for Dish.



## falconress (May 8, 2011)

I started this thread because I found nothing similar within a recent timeframe. Hope it's okay to do that. 

DirecTV Choice Ultimate would cost $36 a month for months 1-12, $51 for months 13-24, including one HD and one standard receiver, and after new subscriber discount and AAA promo. Total for 24 months: $1,044.

DishTV America’s Top 250 costs me $77 a month, including two standard receivers. Total for 24 months: $1,848.

I am with Dish for over ten years, paid with Auto Pay, and had no other contact with them. I used to have America’s Everything Pak, but about half a year ago I ditched the premiums in favor of Amazon Prime + Netflix. The main Dish quirk, that I learned to live with, is that it goes out for awhile as soon as the first raindrops fall. I’m sure DirecTV has its own quirks.

All else being equal, I don’t care which company gets my money. But all else is not equal. We recently replaced one of our TV’s with an HD TV. I contacted Dish to find out about upgrading one receiver and adding HD service. Their answer surprised me so much, it sent me looking for other ideas.

Dish said that they can’t sell me an upgraded HD receiver instead of one of our standard receivers because “at this time there are no HD receiver lease promotions.” I would have to buy an HD receiver outright, pay the monthly HD service surcharge, and also pay monthly for a third receiver, even though we only have two televisions and only need two receivers and two Smart Cards. 

When they insisted the only way I can add HD is if I agree to pay a monthly receiver charge for a third receiver I don’t need (after buying an HD receiver outright), I started looking around and found the DirecTV offer.

Considering the gap is so substantial, and would be even bigger if I did add HD to Dish, does it even pay to call Dish and try to “negotiate” a matching offer or is it just a waste of my time and theirs?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

Having switched a few times myself, I know that from purely a dollars and cents standpoint, you save money. And that is because of the new customer offers. Both do it.

As to negotiating, well when you cancel they will make some offers at the time and might negotiate a little bit otherwise as long as they think you will leave. But the offers are seldom as good as the 'new' or 'returning' customer offers.

That said, make sure you know what you get for the money. Sometimes there is equipment costs upfront because of the number and types of equipment. And there is a bit of a hassle with a switch, both because of the installation stuff, and also the differences in how each provider's equipment works.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The receiver information you describe makes no sense to me. You should be able to get a ViP722DVR as part of whatever package you choose. That will serve one HD TV and one SD TV controlled independently.

I'm not sure what impact your status as a returning customer has on eligibility for some discounts.

Maybe a somebody from DIRT can interact with you.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

falconress said:


> I started this thread because I found nothing similar within a recent timeframe. Hope it's okay to do that.
> 
> DirecTV Choice Ultimate would cost $36 a month for months 1-12, $51 for months 13-24, including one HD and one standard receiver, and after new subscriber discount and AAA promo. Total for 24 months: $1,044.
> 
> ...


Try CSR roulette.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

doesn't sound right.

try CS again, if they give you the same reply, you could try asking for the "customer loyalty" dept. 

If that fails, jumping ship is the option. direct did sort of the same to me and I left them for dish. It is all a shell game and the winner gets your money. The idea is not to give more than you have to.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Just to be clear they will not match the Direct (or any) new customer promotion. Or at least I should say they have a history of never doing that. The feeling is you got a promotion when you first signed up.

That said, I do think you can get a better deal on staying with Dish. I have two suggestions. One is as already said, go through a CSR that is on this site. They will look at your account and see what they can do. It does make a difference on your payment history and level of services I believe.

Second though, you may want to wait for the Hopper to come out and see what the cost of that will be and how it may fit your needs.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

Thanks so much to all of you who read and made suggestions. I really appreciate it. 

I made an error calculating the second year. I factored in the AAA promo discount as $10 a month, but it only goes for 20 months. So the second year would cost 40 bucks more, and of course DirecTV might raise rates across the board, including new-subscriber rates. Ultimately, though, the total DirecTV cost is still much lower by several hundred $’s than my current Dish package, which has no HD.

But I’ll admit, the thing that makes me think it’s pointless to try talking with Dish was their weird stance on the HD upgrade. I’ll try contacting the DIRT team and ask for their input before I decide. 

Thanks again.

P.S. @tampa8, what's the Hopper? We are the antithesis of power users, BTW. The Luddites would welcome us happily. So if the Hopper is something bright and shiny, I'll probably wait till it's dull and tarnished before having a look. :lol:


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

I would guess from your existing offers DISH does not value you as an existing customer. Go to Directv and save the money just remember it is a 2 year commitment so double check your calculations.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

boba said:


> I would guess from your existing offers DISH does not value you as an existing customer. Go to Directv and save the money just remember it is a 2 year commitment so double check your calculations.


While his past history and such are all part of the deal he might get from E*, you can't really tell from the offers what his account is like. Just like D*, the luck of the draw with a CSR plays as much a part of it as anything else.

When I cancelled with E*, they offered a few bucks off for a few months to stay. And I'm one that has nearly the top package, and always have 2-4 premiums involved, and buy PPVs on occasion, with nary a late payment and no real *****ing.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

boba said:


> I would guess from your existing offers DISH does not value you as an existing customer. Go to Directv and save the money just remember it is a 2 year commitment so double check your calculations.


Yeah, they really don't . We always paid with AutoPay (i.e., on time), and until recently always had the top package, so I'm not sure what it takes to get some love.

I never used pay per view or anything like that, though, and never needed more than standard receivers. Maybe they're like the credit card companies, who like customers who pay lots of interest fees more than customers who pay off their balance each month.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

If direct offers the second year at a discounted rate [ it is on their web site] can they change it at any time during the 2 year agreement?

Seems to me after the initial 12 mo. promo, there is a price increase.

I would double check that, as it figures into your cost/savings.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

satcrazy said:


> If direct offers the second year at a discounted rate [ it is on their web site] can they change it at any time during the 2 year agreement?
> 
> Seems to me after the initial 12 mo. promo, there is a price increase.


Yes, the prices are different for the second year. But with the promo they are running now, even the second year gets a discount off full price. The first year, the discount is $31/month, the second year it's $16/month.

For Ultimate Choice (with 1 HD and 1 standard receiver):
Basic full rate: $71
Newbie rate, months 1-12: $46
Newbie rate, months 13-24: $61
Plus, if you sign up through AAA, there's an additional $10/month for 20 months.

Also, I assume that when they increase prices across the board, they will also increase these prices. I didn't see anything that says the prices are locked in. The discount is apparently locked in, but of course the basic rate could go up. I figured that even if it goes up 4% a year, it's still cheaper than what I'm paying Dish. Much cheaper, by hundreds of $'s. Possibly cheap enough to make the hassle worthwhile. That's what I'm trying to decide now.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

they did have a promo awhile back locking in price, which has probably expired. I think this was their answer to dish's price freeze til 2013.

If you switch, it would be interesting to read your experience/satisfaction with direct.

Can't beat the price,tho.

cheers!


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

falcon,

Your thread is pretty much identical to THIS one. You will save money as a new customer no matter where you go. When the discounts run out, nobody will match another competitors newbie deals to keep you. Sounds like you want to play the game to save money, which is fine. But DirecTV is missing a heck of a lot of HD content (~20 channels). So even though it's cheaper short term, it would really suck to have to actually watch it. So $36 for crap is a lot worse than $77 for quality, IMO.

My 2 cents.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

satcrazy said:


> they did have a promo awhile back locking in price, which has probably expired. I think this was their answer to dish's price freeze til 2013.
> 
> If you switch, it would be interesting to read your experience/satisfaction with direct.
> 
> ...


I'm kind of philosophical. Dish has its quirks, and I'm sure Direct has its own quirks. That's generally the case with lots of things in life, KWIM? Go to an HP board, they tell you Dell is the devil's handiwork. Go to a Dell board, they'll mock you for even considering HP.

I don't have any real complaint against Dish. I understand that every company will have attractive offers for new subscribers, and be less inclined to give discounts to long-time customers. Now, though, not only am I looking at lower costs with DirecTV, but Dish seems to be making it unnecessarily difficult and expensive to replace one of our receivers for an HD receiver.

I will contact someone on the DIRT team, maybe they will help try to figure out what's going on. I have a nagging feeling the CSR missed something, because her conclusion makes no sense. Why would they care if I own a third receiver, if only two are active on the account? You can hoard old receivers piled from floor to ceiling in your basement; Dish would neither know nor care. The only ones that matter are the ones that are actively on the account. At least, that's my logic.

If they come up with an acceptable solution, maybe I'll consider asking about getting a lower price. Otherwise, I think maybe the universe is telling me it's time to become someone else's new subscriber and enjoy those perks for a change.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

I don't really like debating the issues between the two providers as I think they are both great. Each has advantages and disadvantages. In terms of interest I always ask people considering each whether they like to have a lot of sports or watch a lot of movies. To those that like a lot of sports, I suggest DirecTV might be better for them. Dish might be better for those who like a lot of movies.

But I'm going to make an observation here.

IMHO being a long term Dish customer, I know I'm required to make some effort to get the best pricing available to me. For the period from February 2011 through January 2012, I paid an average of $104.47 (including taxes) for AT200 HD, 3 Premiums (HBO, Showtime, & Starz), PlatinumHD Channels, a ViP722DVR and a ViP612DVR. That required me to do a fast shuffle to be sure I got Platinum free for the Anniversary year, plus the three premiums for free for three months.

I do go the extra mile. If for a period of more than two months there is no series show I want to record on one of the three premiums, I cancel it. I order it back on when a series show that I want to watch comes on and during that period record the movie premiers I missed.

I have a feeling its going to be harder to keep the "before taxes" monthly bill average under $100. But this Forum seems to keep me aware of what deals might be possible. I use the Dish Online Chat seems to get me those discounts, albeit on a few occasions over the years I've had to play CSR Roulette.

And then there's the base package choice. I "must" subscribe to AT200 because AMC and BBCA are unavailable in AT120. But after May, I'm going to be studying to see if I can cut back that $15 a month for even just one month.

Given the limited number of shows we watch on AMC and BBCA, I'm going to have to evaluate the streaming option. I know that many prior seasons of BBCA shows are available for us to stream for free on Amazon Prime. And Netflix has acquired the rights to past episodes of "Mad Men" though that would require a new subscription and hardware considerations.


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## MadScientist (Dec 1, 2004)

Hello, 
That is my post referenced too. I have decided to stay with Dish for now. I was asking for some help with my bill, and to keep me with Dish! Well Dish did help me! It's not a lot but it helps! I am now getting $10 off my bill for 16 months with no contract! I feel that dish should offer people like me and the OP a discount for being a good paying on time customer. I too have been with Dish 10+ years. This is just my .02cents!



mdavej said:


> falcon,
> 
> Your thread is pretty much identical to THIS one. You will save money as a new customer no matter where you go. When the discounts run out, nobody will match another competitors newbie deals to keep you. Sounds like you want to play the game to save money, which is fine. But DirecTV is missing a heck of a lot of HD content (~20 channels). So even though it's cheaper short term, it would really suck to have to actually watch it. So $36 for crap is a lot worse than $77 for quality, IMO.
> 
> My 2 cents.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

mdavej said:


> falcon,
> 
> Your thread is pretty much identical to THIS one. You will save money as a new customer no matter where you go. When the discounts run out, nobody will match another competitors newbie deals to keep you. Sounds like you want to play the game to save money, which is fine. But DirecTV is missing a heck of a lot of HD content (~20 channels). So even though it's cheaper short term, it would really suck to have to actually watch it. So $36 for crap is a lot worse than $77 for quality, IMO.
> 
> My 2 cents.


good point

without having to go through over 200 channels line by line, would you happen to know what hd channels are missing? I think this might influence alot of would be jumpers.

thanks


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## tommiet (Dec 29, 2005)

If saving money is the primary reason to chance, do it! Dish will never meet Directs price and you can always jump back and forth and save money. I've changed multiple times when new hardware comes out and my current provider wants an arm and a leg to upgrade.

DISH will not even think about leasing us a "HOPPER" for at least a couple of years. New customers get the new toys first. Another reason to jump to Direct. You can get a 5 tuner receiver today! 

Hmmmm... I think I need to check into this too.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

satcrazy said:


> good point
> 
> without having to go through over 200 channels line by line, would you happen to know what hd channels are missing? I think this might influence alot of would be jumpers.
> 
> thanks


I cheat. I already went through the channels line by line. 

http://jameslong.name/hdcount.html is the list by programming package (to the best of my knowledge - channels change packages occasionally).
http://jameslong.name/hdadditions.html is the list of additions each year 2008 to present (look for DISH only and DTV only images).

There is also a PDF chart that I maintain in the General Satellite forum (in this thread).

If it were not for the lists I would not know every channel. But I would be certain to check the competition for every channel that I currently watch in HD and channels that I wish were also in HD. And I'd also check the SD lineups to see if said channels were in SD or just missing from the other provider.


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## Nurseryman (Feb 2, 2012)

Thank you, James Long! That's great.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

satcrazy said:


> good point
> 
> without having to go through over 200 channels line by line, would you happen to know what hd channels are missing? I think this might influence alot of would be jumpers.
> 
> thanks


Last time I checked, DirecTV was missing the following HD channels that Dish currently has:

BBCA, Bloomberg, Centric, Cooking, DIY, E!, G4, Gala, GSN, H2, HLN, Hub, ID, Lifetime Movie, Logo, Mav, Nat Geo Wild, RedZone(?), OWN, PixL, RFD(?), Sportsman, Style(?), Tru, TCM, Veria, Epix 1, 2, 3, IndiePlex, RetroPlex

DirecTV has a lot more HD sports channels, HD premiums, 3D and the Disney/ESPN HD channels of course.

Personally, my must haves are BBCA, Cooking, G4 and TCM.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks to you both for posting the hd info.

Will save pdf for future ref.

The links were all the info anyone needs!

You composed this yourself?

So, pound for pound, if your not into sports, dish seems like the choice, correct?


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Just looking at content (not taking into account cost or type of receivers etc);

Yes, the general "rule" which honestly holds true overall, if you are really into sports you want Direct TV at the downside of not having as many channels in HD, not counting sports.

Dish, if you are not that into sports, you will still get your local sports teams, but some markets do not always get them in HD, and there are a few other shortcomings with sports as well. Dish did recently add MLB channel, and one major thing - you can get the NFLZ channel (along with lots of college sports and some other sports) for $9 a month. For alot of people that is all they need for football, at a cost much much less than with Direct and getting the whole NFL Sunday package. And taking sports out of the equation Dish has more HD channels.

Just keep in mind there are other variables as I alluded to that may or may not make a difference in choosing such as superstations, the Blockbuster package, etc. In my opinion either is better than cable for most areas.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

There is more to the decision than just the HD lineup. I'd like to see DISH do better in sports, and I see the potential of that happening this year. But one should also look at the equipment they will use to view those channels and make sure the equipment also meets their needs.

Also, go beyond the sticker price. Both providers have fees and every "special offer" has fine print. And look at your commitment. One of the things I enjoy about being out of contract is knowing that if I had to leave (and become a non-satellite subscriber) I could. I like being out of contract and have done my best from day 1 that I had DISH to stay out of contract.


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## ubankit (Jan 7, 2005)

To the OP: I would seriously consider changing based on the figures you're posting, that is not a small amount you would be saving plus there is absolutely no point, IMO, of having a hd tv and not getting able to see hd programming. (I switched from Dish to Direct a year ago because Dish dropped the cheap hd package Absolute and it was cheaper to go with Direct and Choice extra than a comparable Dish package. After my two years with Direct are up, then I'll have to evaluate and see what works best for the money).
I would contact the DIRT team and see what they can do because your incentives (if any) will depend on what kinda customer you are to Dish and they will give you a straight answer, other than that you could try Dish retention. I'm old (school), I don't wanna play the csr roulette game with any company, just give me your best deal/price without me having to play games and I'll decide what my best move is. Good luck & enjoy your hd tv!


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## Inkosaurus (Jul 29, 2011)

The trouble the CSR gave you over the upgrade doesnt sound right at all.
I used to work for dish and did the upgrades all day long, there is ALWAYS a upgrade promotion.
The question is do you currently qualify for it? I think theres a chance you didnt qualify and the agent was just afraid to out right say you dont get it, and opted to say there isnt one at all.
Bear in mind disqualifiers can be as simple as a few late payments with in the most recent months.

But that doesnt fit with the rest of the story in regards to the option to add it on as a third receiver. Honestly, i think the CSR you spoke to could have been what we call a new hire. They were probably sitting there with there ojt (on job trainer) listening in and just "faking it till you make it" lol.

But yeah contact Dish again, you can try CSR roulette or contacting a DIRT member here. Alternatively if you want some real time answers i highly suggest going to the website and chatting with an agent. The Chat Agents are all employees who have been with Dish for awhile and know there way around the system very well, most of these guys know what there talking about.

That said though if you are still looking to upgrade if you want it to be free there are some things that need to be taken into account.

Free upgrades require

2 year contract
Credit card check (they will put a dollar hold and can use the one on file already with your permission).
Potential installation cost: This depends on whether or not you have the protection plan on your account or are willing to add it if you dont. 
High tier accounts : Free install with protection plan
Mid tier accounts : 15$ with protection plan.
All accounts without protection plan pay 95$ unless you negotiate otherwise 


About lowering your price, negotiating with front line CSR's wont get you anywhere theres nothing they can offer that will be to your liking, unless you like pay per view coupons.
As said earlier though loyalty can help out, you can probably get 10$ off for 12 , or if your lucky maybe a 15$x12.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

falconress said:


> P.S. @tampa8, what's the Hopper?


Hopper is Dish's new whole-home DVR system with HD output to all TVs. It has 3 satellite tuners, and during prime time one of those can be set to record the entire lineup of the 4 major broadcast networks (if carried in HD by Dish). One Hopper can support 3 Joey client boxes over the home's existing coax. Two Hoppers can support 4 Joeys with a shared DVR list.

It's expected to be out this (read "next") quarter for new and existing customers.

http://www.dish.com/hopper
http://www.dishuser.org/xip813.php
http://www.dishuser.org/ces2012.php


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## Lazy Senior (Jan 24, 2005)

falconress said:


> I started this thread because I found nothing similar within a recent timeframe.


You did not look very hard. This subject was beat to death last week:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=201119

I am in the exactly the same situation as you. My contract with Dish expires in 4 weeks. I have tried to get promos from Dish with no success except for a couple of offers worth maybe $100 over a 2year contract. I plan on going back to Directv. I have churned many times, new customer promo offers are always better than what your present provider will give you. Sad but true.

Saving money talks loudly, make the switch to Directv.


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## Lazy Senior (Jan 24, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> Second though, you may want to wait for the Hopper to come out and see what the cost of that will be and how it may fit your needs.


I read all about the Hopper and Directv HR34. The HR34 is much more versatile. The Hopper is not going to be able to compete with the HR34.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Lazy Senior said:


> I read all about the Hopper and Directv HR34. The HR34 is much more versatile. The Hopper is not going to be able to compete with the HR34.


Total misrepresentation. First you have no idea what the cost of the Hopper will be. For those who do not need 5 or six tuners if the cost is less than the Direct receiver, than it IS more versatile. 
The way it works is also more versatile if you did read about it including recording all the networks on one tuner. Correct me if I am wrong, but with the Direct non DVR receiver in another room if you want to pause etc.. you need to be recording the program, live you can not. You can with the Hopper and Joeys, on up to four locations in the house.

You can add a second Hopper if needed, from posts I read you can not add a second HR34. The Hopper has a 2TB hard drive, two times larger than the HR. And, you can connect an external hard drive easily via a USB port, I don't think you can use a USB port to connect with the HR. In addition any EHD drive you had with a VIP receiver, will work with the hopper, so you can keep all your recordings.

I'd say quite versatile.


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## inazsully (Oct 3, 2006)

I would love to see a head to head comparison between the two newest flagship whole home DVR's from "D" and "E". Just on performance and what they offer, not price.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

inazsully said:


> I would love to see a head to head comparison between the two newest flagship whole home DVR's from "D" and "E". Just on performance and what they offer, not price.


I would too, I'm sure someone will. But it may not be fair to not include price. The Hopper has less tuners than the Direct model. If that's considered a plus for Direct, then price is important. If you do not need or want the extra receivers, and if the Dish Hopper is less, that has to be taken into consideration.


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## Lazy Senior (Jan 24, 2005)

tampa8 said:


> But it may not be fair to not include price.


Yes not fair at all. Right now I can get a HR34 as a new customer for $100. Right now I can get a Hopper for -- I can not get a hopper right now for ANY price. Let us not forget Dish has a past record of promises and not fulfilling them. Can you say 922.... :lol:

Mama used to tell me: A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. :lol:


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

James Long said:


> There is more to the decision than just the HD lineup. I'd like to see DISH do better in sports, and I see the potential of that happening this year. But one should also look at the equipment they will use to view those channels and make sure the equipment also meets their needs.
> 
> Also, go beyond the sticker price. Both providers have fees and every "special offer" has fine print. And look at your commitment. One of the things I enjoy about being out of contract is knowing that if I had to leave (and become a non-satellite subscriber) I could. I like being out of contract and have done my best from day 1 that I had DISH to stay out of contract.


Besides an equipment upgrade, does anyone know what else locks you in to another 2 year contract? I'll be going into my second year with dish and I want to be carefull not to make this mistake. I too like to be free of the contract after I honor my initial commitment.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tampa8 said:


> ...
> 
> You can add a second Hopper if needed, from posts I read you can not add a second HR34. The Hopper has a 2TB hard drive, two times larger than the HR. ...
> .


You can have more than 1 HR34. Also, half of the Hopper's drive is reserved space by Dish, so they both get 1TB to use.


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## VDP07 (Feb 22, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> You can have more than 1 HR34. *Also, half of the Hopper's drive is reserved space by Dish*, so they both get 1TB to use.


DISH's half is also used to store all PTAT recordings, freeing up that capacity on the user's half in the process.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

VDP07 said:


> DISH's half is also used to store all PTAT recordings, freeing up that capacity on the user's half in the process.


Thanks, you beat me to it!


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

sigma1914 said:


> You can have more than 1 HR34.


I should have been more specific, the two Hoppers will be able to be _combined_ so that all tuners from both can be seen by all TV's. Again, just reading from posts I don't think the HR does that. Adds to being versatile....


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

tampa8 said:


> I should have been more specific, the two Hoppers will be able to be _combined_ so that all tuners from both can be seen by all TV's. Again, just reading from posts I don't think the HR does that. Adds to being versatile....


 All Hx models can see each other and view recordings from them.


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## tampa8 (Mar 30, 2002)

Lazy Senior said:


> Yes not fair at all. Right now I can get a HR34 as a new customer for $100. Right now I can get a Hopper for -- I can not get a hopper right now for ANY price. Let us not forget Dish has a past record of promises and not fulfilling them. Can you say 922.... :lol:
> 
> Mama used to tell me: A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. :lol:


That's a different argument. And I never use a promo price for comparison. If Direct is offering that, then Dish most likely will be too for new customers.

I can't argue it isn't out yet, that's a fact.  But the assertion it can't compete with the HR34 to me doesn't ring true. It will have many wanted features the HR does not. As I said, price to me will be a determining factor. If one Hopper and each Joey costs less including any fees than one HR34 and additional receivers it would appear that will be hot item if someone is only interested in a whole home system.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> All Hx models can see each other and view recordings from them.


They can only see what is already recorded, they cannot see the upcoming schedule. That has been a complaint pretty much since the MRV came out.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

sigma1914 said:


> Also, half of the Hopper's drive is reserved space by Dish, so they both get 1TB to use.


That's not entirely true for two reasons. One, the Hopper's specs say "up to 250 hours of HD or up to 1,000 hours of SD user recordings". That amount of hours doesn't require 1TB of space. It's more likely that well over half of the Hopper's 2TB hard drive is reserved for DISH. And, if you elect to disable PTA, which is something I would do, it's my understanding you will not get that wasted space back.

Second, according to Stuart Sweet's post HERE, the HR34 has a 1TB internal drive, while the Hopper has a 2TB internal drive. Though it seems that the internal drive in the HR34 can be easily changed by the user to a 2TB drive. DISH would have a cow if the user decided to change the internal drive.

The HR34 FAQ also says, "232 hours of MPEG4 HD programming" and that's with a 1TB hard drive, which also includes DirecTV's reserved space.

Then there is the whole reliability factor of 2TB hard drives. Which apparently has a higher failure rate than the 1TB drives. I wouldn't keep anything important on the Hopper's internal drive.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

The Hopper and Joey isn't really comparable to the HR34, IMO, because the HR34 doesn't have an equal Joey counterpart unless you consider a RVU TV an equal to a Joey. A standalone receiver (H2x) adds more than a Joey because it adds it's own additional tuner to your system. Also, if you're willing to add a non DVR, you might as well add a DVR instead because a HR34 + HR24 = a HR34 + H2x = $6 in lease fees, but now you get 7 tuners.

My point is, it's not fair o compare the Hopper/Joey system to a HR34 system because they're so different in what can be done. Both are good, but different for certain users.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Hmmm. Gee I didn't know that anyone has a Hopper/Joey setup yet.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

Again, thanks to all of you. 

Everything you’ve all said has been very helpful and the various pieces of advice are excellent and I will take all of them into account. Thanks for the links, too. I did a search before posting but maybe I did it in the wrong sub-forum or didn't define it correctly, because I didn't see that other post. But I'm glad I posted anyway because all the comments have been very, very helpful.

I agree that the CSR you encounter when you call for service or to inquire about upgrades is a big part of how satisfied or dissatisfied you'll feel. I can’t help but think the one that I spoke with was somewhat clueless. Meantime, though, Raymond the Dish Network Dude was kind enough to agree to review the issue, so at least now I know it’s in the most competent hands. I hope he can bring some clarity to this and will update here with their resolution.


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## Inkosaurus (Jul 29, 2011)

satcrazy said:


> Besides an equipment upgrade, does anyone know what else locks you in to another 2 year contract? I'll be going into my second year with dish and I want to be carefull not to make this mistake. I too like to be free of the contract after I honor my initial commitment.


Generally equipment upgrades are what will cause the contract to restart, there is also a promotion floating around that lets existing customers get the BBMP for 12 months free if they agree to another contract.

Thats pretty much it though, theres no need to worry anything that increases your contract would be disclosed by the agent you speak to, assuming they like having a job


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

James Long said:


> I cheat. I already went through the channels line by line.
> 
> http://jameslong.name/hdcount.html is the list by programming package (to the best of my knowledge - channels change packages occasionally).
> http://jameslong.name/hdadditions.html is the list of additions each year 2008 to present (look for DISH only and DTV only images).
> ...


Those lists are _awesome_. Thank you so much for doing the hard work!

Raymond has already started straightening things out re the equipment upgrade. I still don't know what their requirements/terms are for what I asked for, but Raymond told me who to speak with, and I will discuss it with them later today.


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## SleekComputer (Jul 4, 2009)

falconress said:


> Also, I assume that when they increase prices across the board, they will also increase these prices. I didn't see anything that says the prices are locked in. The discount is apparently locked in, but of course the basic rate could go up. I figured that even if it goes up 4% a year, it's still cheaper than what I'm paying Dish. Much cheaper, by hundreds of $'s. Possibly cheap enough to make the hassle worthwhile. That's what I'm trying to decide now.


It's been a couple years but I'm back comparing DirecTV and Dish too and you make a good point. Has anyone seen anything about a price lock? In reviewing the promo, it does say "Lock in 2 years of savings!" but no where can I find about locking the base price.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

inazsully said:


> I would love to see a head to head comparison between the two newest flagship whole home DVR's from "D" and "E". Just on performance and what they offer, not price.


It will be awhile before a completely valid comparison can be made to give the Hopper/Joey time to settle in, imo. That said there are some things that we know now, so here's my take on a comparison based on that.

D*'s HR34 - 5 tuners
E*'s Hopper - 3 tuners all the time/effective 6 tuners during PrimeTime if you use the PTAT feature.

Effectively during Prime Time, the Hopper has one more tuner.

Dish claims a study shows that Prime Time is where most of the contentions come into play as much of that programming doesn't repeat as often as cable type channels stuff does. My own useage shows that to be the case for me.

D*'s solution requires the use of full-featured receivers/DVRs at the moment (except for the very few Samsung RVU TVs) or a rumored RVU box. RVU is essentially similar to the Joey in most respects.

E* uses the Joey - a smart terminal basically.

D*'s MRV doesn't allow all to see all, for instance the todo list on the remote box.

E*'s everywhere is the same as everywhere else from the user perspective.

And from the video I saw of the Hopper/Joey operation, it appears that the GUI is much quicker on the Hopper/Joey than on the current HRs from D*.

One thing that isn't talked about much is where the Hopper fits for E*. This is all my own conjecture, but I think that at some point in time every new installation will start with single Hopper with enabling/disabling of features the customer doesn't get. (ie; HD or MRV). Big cost containment advantage for E*. Makes installs simpler, later support is easier. Then just add Joeys and/or additional Hopper to the system to make it fit.

For the power user that wants tons of tuners, D* will, as it is now, be the one to go to. Both D* and E* will fit the vast majority of installations though.

It will end up being the same as it is now. Pick the service that provides the programming you want in the locations you need it in.


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## archer75 (Oct 13, 2006)

lparsons21 said:


> It will be awhile before a completely valid comparison can be made to give the Hopper/Joey time to settle in, imo. That said there are some things that we know now, so here's my take on a comparison based on that.
> 
> D*'s HR34 - 5 tuners
> E*'s Hopper - 3 tuners all the time/effective 6 tuners during PrimeTime if you use the PTAT feature.
> ...


Don't forget the USB OTA module that adds 2 more tuners for your locals if you have an antenna.


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

archer75 said:


> Don't forget the USB OTA module that adds 2 more tuners for your locals if you have an antenna.


The info about an upcoming OTA module for the Hopper/Joey is a bit vague, so I ignored it for the moment. But if it comes and it is 2 tuner vice 1, that would be nice. And if E* does as they do now and allow for recording from the OTA in addition to the sat tuners, then it would be 5 tuners all the time.

That's one thing I never understood about the D* design going back to the HR20. 4 tuners but can only record 2 at a time seemed like a dumb decision then and still seems that way to me.

And the use of the EHD also seems like a dumb decision on D*'s part. It is one of the reasons I never considered adding an EHD to a D* HR.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Why would you need OTA when Hopper does PTAT?


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## lparsons21 (Mar 4, 2006)

For some of the sub channels I suppose. 

For me at my location, there are a few sub channels that are not in HD that have shows that I record. Not many, but a few.

I'm addicted to the teener vampire and witchcraft crap!!


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## VDP07 (Feb 22, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Why would you need OTA when Hopper does PTAT?


For use the 21 hours a day that PTAT isn't active? Or for the OTA non big 4 networks?


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

Also, OTA has better picture quality.

BTW, is it PTA or is it PTAT?

Spelling would suggest the former.


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

PrimeTime AnyTime.


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## satcrazy (Mar 16, 2011)

Inkosaurus said:


> Generally equipment upgrades are what will cause the contract to restart, there is also a promotion floating around that lets existing customers get the BBMP for 12 months free if they agree to another contract.
> 
> Thats pretty much it though, theres no need to worry anything that increases your contract would be disclosed by the agent you speak to, assuming they like having a job


Thanks for the reply!

A bit paranoid, as agents from direct [when I had direct] were not so forthcoming, and I had to ask multiple csr's before I got a direct answer. If dish discloses that info up front, will make it way easier.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

OK, quick partial update: Raymond from the DIRT team came through and hooked me up with a much more knowledgeable CSR than the clueless wonder I talked to last week. He straightened out the issue of the equipment upgrade which lowers overall costs considerably.

Just goes to show how critical the CSR frontline is. If I had believed what the first CSR said, I'd be waiting for the DirecTV installer right now. But I knew it didn't sound right, and it wasn't. The CSR I spoke with yesterday was much more helpful.

The Dish CSR wanted to look into a couple of things I asked for, so no final decision yet. Quick question, though: One of the things he talked about was that they want to give me a single duo receiver that has HD for one TV and standard definition for the other, which would eliminate the second receiver fee I’m paying. Is that the Duo VIP 222 model? That was the best I could figure out from the website, which is still a little shaky from the redesign. 

10Q


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

klang said:


> PrimeTime AnyTime.


Thanks. Just to be clear, I know what both acronyms convey. Instead I was asking is which acronym is correct.

In the time that has since passed, I had some free time to do a search over at the new DISH website. Not a lot there, but it appears that DISH prefers to use *P*rime*T*ime *A*nytime. So, PTA is the correct acronym and PTAT is wrong.

And, while both will convey the same thing here, although why not get use to using the correct acronym, when dealing with any company it's probably best to use their terminology and spelling.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

> Is that the Duo VIP 222 model? That was the best I could figure out from the website, which is still a little shaky from the redesign.


If you want a DVR, no that is not the correct receiver. A 722 or 722K http://www.dish.com/technology/receivers-dvrs/#dvr-receivers is the better choice.


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## klang (Oct 14, 2003)

Blowgun said:


> Thanks. Just to be clear, I know what both acronyms convey. Instead I was asking is which acronym is correct.
> 
> In the time that has since passed, I had some free time to do a search over at the new DISH website. Not a lot there, but it appears that DISH prefers to use *P*rime*T*ime *A*nytime. So, PTA is the correct acronym and PTAT is wrong.
> 
> And, while both will convey the same thing here, although why not get use to using the correct acronym, when dealing with any company it's probably best to use their terminology and spelling.


It appears you are correct, Dish is using Prime Time Anytime. The other seems to be the one used by on the internet fora so far.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

thomasjk said:


> If you want a DVR, no that is not the correct receiver. A 722 or 722K http://www.dish.com/technology/receivers-dvrs/#dvr-receivers is the better choice.


Thanks. Actually, we don't need a DVR. The HDTV was a gift for my marvelous mom, whose TV watching consists mainly of Jeopardy, old British sitcoms on PBS, and CNN.

I downloaded the manual for the Duo 222K and am studying it. I'm starting to think that maybe it would be better to get two separate receivers. I'd like to keep things simple because of my Mom, but if we want HD, we have no choice but to change our obsolete equipment, no matter which provider I choose. She doesn't really need the HD but it's ridiculous to have a fantastic television and not use its capabilities. With HD, she will be able to see Saint Alex Trebek's pores close-up :lol:.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

SleekComputer said:


> It's been a couple years but I'm back comparing DirecTV and Dish too and you make a good point. Has anyone seen anything about a price lock? In reviewing the promo, it does say "Lock in 2 years of savings!" but no where can I find about locking the base price.


So you noticed that too, huh? I just saw something interesting on DirecTV's site, though, 
on the page about the 2012 price increase.


> Please note: Our price adjustments affect only our regular, non-promotional rates. If you're currently paying a promotional price for your DIRECTV base package, you will continue to pay this price for the remainder of your promotional period.


I don't know what constitutes the "promotional period." It could be the three months of free premium channels, or the $31 discount in months 1-12, and/or the $16 discount in months 13-24. I imagine they'd try to define it as narrowly as possible, but one year sounds about right. If it comes to that, I'd definitely verify before signing on, though.

It's not the exact phrase "locked in prices" but it does seem like new customers won't be subject to the Feb 9 across-the-board rate increase.


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## thomasjk (Jan 10, 2006)

falconress said:


> Thanks. Actually, we don't need a DVR. The HDTV was a gift for my marvelous mom, whose TV watching consists mainly of Jeopardy, old British sitcoms on PBS, and CNN.
> 
> I downloaded the manual for the Duo 222K and am studying it. I'm starting to think that maybe it would be better to get two separate receivers. I'd like to keep things simple because of my Mom, but if we want HD, we have no choice but to change our obsolete equipment, no matter which provider I choose. She doesn't really need the HD but it's ridiculous to have a fantastic television and not use its capabilities. With HD, she will be able to see Saint Alex Trebek's pores close-up :lol:.


If you want HD for two TVs then the 222 is still not what you want. It supports HD for one TV and SD for the second TV. For independent viewing two 211's would be the best way to get HD for two TV's with independent viewing. The 211 can be converted to a DVR if desired by adding an external hard drive, a $40.00 fee per account.


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

Blowgun said:


> BTW, is it PTA or is it PTAT?
> 
> Spelling would suggest the former.


When I asked one of the demonstrators a specific question, she told one of the tech people I was asking about "P T A T."

Not that this helps the original question.


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## SleekComputer (Jul 4, 2009)

falconress said:


> So you noticed that too, huh? I just saw something interesting on DirecTV's site, though,
> on the page about the 2012 price increase.
> 
> I don't know what constitutes the "promotional period." It could be the three months of free premium channels, or the $31 discount in months 1-12, and/or the $16 discount in months 13-24. I imagine they'd try to define it as narrowly as possible, but one year sounds about right. If it comes to that, I'd definitely verify before signing on, though.
> ...


I've sent them an e-mail asking for clarification. I'll post back when I hear something.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> Why would you need OTA when Hopper does PTAT?


I think Echostar and DISH designers wonder the same thing.PTAT is not the cure all DISH may think it is with the over the air broadcasters now providing several subchannels per channel.


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## falconress (May 8, 2011)

SleekComputer said:


> I've sent them an e-mail asking for clarification. I'll post back when I hear something.


Thanks. I'm curious what they'll say. The more sources for verification, the better. Meantime, though, it looks like the "promotional period" for locked-in prices is 24 months.

I managed to get the OnlineChat feature, and here is what he wrote: 


> James: I would be happy to answer your question regarding our services.
> James: Yes, for the new customer they have to sign up for 24 months agreement.
> You: I understand. But my question is, DirecTV states that rates will remain the same throughout the period of the promotional price for new subscribers, even if they increase rates elsewhere. The promotional offer has savings for the whole 24 months, does that mean that the rate is locked in for the entire time?
> James: Yes, you are absolutely right.


Here is the screenshot. _(Mods, I hope I did that right, seemed like it belonged in the DirecTV area). _

Also, I was checking something on JetBlue's "partner offers" page, and found this:


> Lock in two years of savings on every package at DIRECTV.com
> EXPIRATION: 02/08/2012
> (2000 TrueBlue points *)


Lessons learned, whether for signing on with Dish or with DirecTV:
(1) It pays to be accurately informed about the fine print. On this issue, the difference isn't a lot of money, but still. When a rep is giving reasons to stay with their company, and they tell me "the other guy's rates will be going up each year," it's helpful to know that this is not quite the whole picture.

(2) It pays to do some research about possibly combining offers with another loyalty program to which you belong. It didn't occur to me that it might be worth checking my other loyalty programs for their "partner offers." The offers are out there and it only makes sense to combine them with the new subscription to get the best value for your family.


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## SleekComputer (Jul 4, 2009)

falconress said:


> Thanks. I'm curious what they'll say. The more sources for verification, the better.


Sorry for the delay but I did hear back from DirecTV. I'll post the info in the other thread to keep it all together.


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## tommiet (Dec 29, 2005)

BobaBird said:


> Hopper is Dish's new whole-home DVR system with HD output to all TVs. It has 3 satellite tuners, and during prime time one of those can be set to record the entire lineup of the 4 major broadcast networks (if carried in HD by Dish). One Hopper can support 3 Joey client boxes over the home's existing coax. Two Hoppers can support 4 Joeys with a shared DVR list.
> 
> It's expected to be out this (read "next") quarter for new and existing customers.
> 
> ...


Dish will make all current customers WAIT a year or longer before offering new hardware to us.... You could jump to Direct today and call back in 2 years and get a Hopper faster....


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## BobaBird (Mar 31, 2002)

The first post of the Hopper pricing thread quotes portions of the new Residential Customer Agreement showing it will be available to existing customers.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

BobaBird said:


> The first post of the Hopper pricing thread quotes portions of the new Residential Customer Agreement showing it will be available to existing customers.


Another interesting thing about the Residential Customer Agreement is when you scroll down to see the different prices the Hopper and Joey are not listed under Additional Receivers which would make me think DISH may charge a receiver fee for each receiver.?.:eek2:

http://www.dish.com/downloads/legal/residential-agreement.pdf


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## MCHuf (Oct 9, 2011)

Jhon69 said:


> Another interesting thing about the Residential Customer Agreement is when you scroll down to see the different prices the Hopper and Joey are not listed under Additional Receivers which would make me think DISH may charge a receiver fee for each receiver.?.:eek2:
> 
> http://www.dish.com/downloads/legal/residential-agreement.pdf


Without an official announcement, we still don't know the real price. But if this document is correct, then a two HDTV set-up would be $24! :eek2:

Damn, it would be cheaper to have two 722K's with EHD's and just "sneakernet" the EHD's between the two (or connect the TV2 outputs to the other tv). Add ota modules to each 722K and you've got eight tuners! You also could cover up to four tv's if you wanted to, all for $23 per month in fees.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

MCHuf said:


> Without an official announcement, we still don't know the real price. But if this document is correct, then a two HDTV set-up would be $24! :eek2:
> 
> Damn, it would be cheaper to have two 722K's with EHD's and just "sneakernet" the EHD's between the two (or connect the TV2 outputs to the other tv). Add ota modules to each 722K and you've got eight tuners! You also could cover up to four tv's if you wanted to, all for $23 per month in fees.


Now if you look under the DHA it's listed a little different as the Hopper and Joey are listed together under Additional Receivers,let's hope that one is correct?.

http://www.dish.com/downloads/legal/DHA_Agreement.pdf

But let's face it 4 TVs for $23.in receiver fees is also absurd too!.DISH the Home of Because We Can Fees!:nono2:


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## MCHuf (Oct 9, 2011)

Jhon69 said:


> But let's face it 4 TVs for $23.in receiver fees is also absurd too!.DISH the Home of Because We Can Fees!:nono2:


Yes, but Dish would be a lot cheaper for four tv's with two dvr's than a cableco. Of course the saving grace for cabelco's is that they allow cable card devices and cable card fees are usually only $3.50 each.


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## daranman (Feb 1, 2008)

Just got off the phone with retention. I had the Dish Absolute a year ago, and a 5 year customer, and was forced out of it, but they retained me with offering me the $10 and $5 savings, as well as the HD Platinum, Starz and Encore. All those dropped off, so had to figure out whether it was worth it to keep Dish just to watch a few channels, now that football season is over...and its really not for me. I called them to see what I would be offered, and all she offered me was 1/2 price on Starz, and $5 credit on the bill to stick around, maybe with Dish Family or Welcome Package. but only after I asked. I decided to see if I could just 'cut the cord', and go OTA only and put Dish on Pause for $5 per month.


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## JeffN9 (Apr 14, 2007)

I'm in the same boat as you, an ex-Absoluter whose credits are about to expire. After communicating with two different Dish representitives the most I could get was two free movies. I really can't complain too much though because I've received my share of freebies along the way. No doubt that is at least part of why they won't give me much now.

Sounds like from what I've been reading here and on other threads they have really tightened their belts when it comes to credits, etc. given to existing customers. More than ever the focus seems to be on getting new business.


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## Lazy Senior (Jan 24, 2005)

daranman said:


> Just got off the phone with retention.


Me too. My 2 year contract is up in 36 days. They would not let me cancel. Told me I can only cancel within 30 days of contract ending. So I have to wait 6 more days to cancel. All they offered me to stay is a $60 credit over a 6 month period which is peanuts compared to what Directv is offering me. I like Dish. I like it better than Directv. However $$$ talks and Directv is offering lots of $$ savings to switch.

Bye Bye Dish..... See you in 2 years maybe :lol:


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## adkinsjm (Mar 25, 2003)

DirecTV has nothing to do with Internet. It just bundles service with phone companies, with the phone company responsible for billing.


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## Blowgun (May 23, 2008)

BobaBird said:


> When I asked one of the demonstrators a specific question, she told one of the tech people I was asking about "P T A T."


Out of curiosity I called DISH and asked. I was told that it's "PTA", which is consistent with the DISH website.


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