# DIRECTV HD Receiver with TiVo (Official Q1 2010 Thread)



## Stuart Sweet

Even though there's been no real news about the upcoming DIRECTV-TiVo device in over a year, discussion here at DBSTalk.com has been brewing. As the new device gets closer, we'll be rebooting this thread once a quarter until we see some real hardware hit the streets.

Ground Rules:

This is not a free-for-all. Rudeness will not be tolerated.

If you harp on a particular point to the exclusion of others, your posts may be deleted.

We all acknowledge that _very little is known about the new TiVo device_ and what we've been told may no longer be current. Do not claim to "know" something if you truly do not.

This is the singular thread for all future TiVo discussion until the device is actually revealed. Other threads will be closed.

Above all, enjoy speculating and anticipating a new chapter in DIRECTV history!

September 2008 Press Release
TiVo SEC Filing


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## Stuart Sweet

Synopsis of common arguments: (in other words, this ground's already been trodden, do we have to go there again?)


Many people like the TiVo interface, especially the list guide. 
Many people are equally fond of the DIRECTV interface. 
Many people think that TiVos are easier for them to use.
Many people think that DIRECTV DVRs are easier for them to use.
Standalone TiVo devices have many features that are appealing to people. 
No guarantee has been made that any feature from a standalone TiVo will make it to the DIRECTV TiVo. 
The new device will run on DIRECTV hardware, although we don't know how that will work (we have some ideas). 
TiVo, Inc. will develop the software for the device and seems to be solely responsible for the user experience.


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## Mike Bertelson

I always find myself wondering whether the current feature set in the HR2x will be the limiting factor for the feature set in the upcoming DirecTiVo.

Can it have more features then the DVR+? IMHO, no it can't. It would kill the the HR2x completely and with all that's gone into it I doubt DirecTV would let that happen....let it begin.

Mike


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## Richierich

I hope to find out more information about the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR at the CES next week in Las Vegas.

If we find something we will let y'all know and take plenty of pictures if that's possible. If fact I will probably bring one back with me after I talk them into letting me Beta Test it.

I don't think it will have more Features than the next Directv DVR but some will be different with TIVO Functionality and hopefully it will combine the Best of Both Worlds.


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## Tom_S

MicroBeta said:


> I always find myself wondering whether the current feature set in the HR2x will be the limiting factor for the feature set in the upcoming DirecTiVo.
> 
> Can it have more features then the DVR+? IMHO, no it can't. It would kill the the HR2x completely and with all that's gone into it I doubt DirecTV would let that happen....let it begin.
> 
> Mike


Not if they charge more for it. I would stick with the HR20 if they did that no matter what features they include.


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## sbl

From Fudzilla:

DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES


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## loudo

sbl said:


> From Fudzilla:
> 
> DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES


From what we have been hearing about DirecTV's not going to be there, this article gives the appearance that they are. Wonder if it is a last minute change.


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## Movieman

MicroBeta said:


> I always find myself wondering whether the current feature set in the HR2x will be the limiting factor for the feature set in the upcoming DirecTiVo.
> 
> Can it have more features then the DVR+? IMHO, no it can't. It would kill the the HR2x completely and with all that's gone into it I doubt DirecTV would let that happen....let it begin.
> 
> Mike


Although I agree in part there is still a lot of users that would keep the HR2x. May have to do with price points or comfort. I have a buddy that wont let go of his Tivo and I really didnt care for it. Not much he can do that I cant already with the HR2x. Sure its nice but I dont think the investment would make my viewing experience any better. If Tivo brings some advanced services then I could see it doing harm to the HR2x if firmware cant match it.


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## ndole

I'm pretty interested to see just how D* will designate between an HDDVR(tivo) and the Plus HDDVR from an installation/replacement/logistical standpoint. Will every shipment of stb's to our warehouse include both HDDVR(tivo)'s and Plus HDDVR's? Up until now the guidelines for installation and replacement of receivers has been pretty straightforward. Either it's a Standard, a DVR, a HD, or an HDDVR. For awhile there we also had the DVRMP4 designation for the R22, but later the R22 was lumped in with other standard DVR's. How are these new HDDVR's going to be designated from the rest? Are they going to have any new features (obvious with the HDDVR(tivo)) that would preclude them being swapped for an HR2x on a service call?


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## hdtvfan0001

sbl said:


> From Fudzilla:
> 
> DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES


Don't hold your breath....a number of the things in that post are known innaccuracies...

But not to worry...several of us will have our feet on the ground at the CES late next week and will report actual information provided there - keeping in mind DirecTV themselves will NOT have a booth there.


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## Richierich

sbl said:


> From Fudzilla:
> 
> DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES


What Credibility does this Fudzilla have???

I am not familiar with Fudzilla.

What is Fudzilla all about?


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## smiddy

We'll have to wait for the announcements and figure out the logistics. It is a guess, but the TiVo should, you would think, interact with the DirecTV offerings. We'll see.


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## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Don't hold your breath....a number of the things in that post are known innaccuracies...
> 
> But not to worry...several of us will have our feet on the ground at the CES late next week and will report actual information provided there - keeping in mind DirecTV themselves will NOT have a booth there.


I'll be there though...


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## Mike Bertelson

Movieman said:


> Although I agree in part there is still a lot of users that would keep the HR2x. May have to do with price points or comfort. I have a buddy that wont let go of his Tivo and I really didnt care for it. Not much he can do that I cant already with the HR2x. Sure its nice but I dont think the investment would make my viewing experience any better. If Tivo brings some advanced services then I could see it doing harm to the HR2x if firmware cant match it.


It may not cause you and me to switch (for right now I can't think of a single reason to switxh) but for some of the current subscriber base and new customers (who likely get big discounts) it will be the beginning of the end...as some switch and new subs come in it would slowly take over. This is why I think the TiVo interface/feature set will have to match but not substantially exceed the current/future HD DVR+ platform...especially if it's to be on an existing HR2x.

It's a theory...:grin:

Mike


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## Alan Gordon

MicroBeta said:


> Can it have more features then the DVR+? IMHO, no it can't. It would kill the the HR2x completely and with all that's gone into it I doubt DirecTV would let that happen....let it begin.


I'm not sure how many features it will have compared to the stand-alones, but there are some things which the HR10-250 had.... which I would be surprised to not see included on the new unit... things like no limit to the amount of Season Passes offered (FANTASTIC feature), Wishlists (FANTASTIC FEATURE).

One feature said to be included on the new unit is TiVo KidZone. If the TiVo fee is not that bad (say $3 to $5 extra a month), and TiVo were to play this feature up, I could see a lot of parents going for the TiVo just for this feature.

~Alan


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## TheRatPatrol

I want to a new DVR with 4 tuners and quad PIP.


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## Syzygy

There will be lots of reasons to switch. The one at the peak of my consciousness right now: A true Instant Replay button that goes back 8 seconds immediately -- rather than the "DVR Plus" button that waits for 2 to 4 seconds and then goes back 5, resulting in an actual movement of only 1 to 3 seconds.

Or, speaking of buttons, a real Slo-mo button.


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## Draconis

loudo said:


> From what we have been hearing about DirecTV's not going to be there, this article gives the appearance that they are. Wonder if it is a last minute change.


DIRECTV may be a no-show again this year, but that does not mean TiVo is not going to be there. I'm going to have to check the exhibitors list.

--- edit ---

Yep, TiVo is going to be there. I'll make sure I drop by their booth and I'll post anything interesting I find.

http://myces.bdmetrics.com/CDT-6277933/TiVo-Inc-/Details.aspx


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## Richierich

Syzygy said:


> There will be lots of reasons to switch. The one at the peak of my consciousness right now: A true Instant Replay button that goes back 8 seconds immediately -- rather than the "DVR Plus" button that waits for 2 to 4 seconds and then goes back 5, resulting in an actual movement of only 1 to 3 seconds.
> 
> Or, speaking of buttons, a real Slo-Mo Button.


And a CLEAR BUTTON that truly CLEARS and doesn't EXIT.

And REAL DUAL LIVE BUFFERS without having to invoke them and pause before going to the other tuner.


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## Syzygy

richierich said:


> ... And REAL DUAL LIVE BUFFERS without having to invoke them and pause before going to other tuner.


Cross your fingers for that one. DirecTV's partial implementation of DLB was forced by their marketing folks, who insist on access to the background tuner for acquiring VOD. I think these same folks will require TiVo to give them access to the background tuner -- although I hope not.


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## Stuart Sweet

I don't have any evidence the marketing folks were involved, do you?


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## Syzygy

It's an educated guess. In fact, even if you were to swear on a stack of bibles that marketing folks were _not _involved in choosing to use the background tuner for acquiring VOD, I couldn't force myself to believe it.

I just hope they keep their cotton-pickin' hands off the new TiVo. (I hope that's not too politically incorrect, saying cotton-pickin'.)


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## DogLover

Syzygy said:


> It's an educated guess. In fact, even if you were to swear on a stack of bibles that marketing folks were _not _involved in choosing to use the background tuner for acquiring VOD, I couldn't force myself to believe it.
> 
> I just hope they keep their cotton-pickin' hands off the new TiVo. (I hope that's not too politically incorrect, saying cotton-pickin'.)


The old DirecTivos had no problem using the background tuner for showcases. I wouldn't think that Tivo would handle the VOD downloading any different than the old showcases; they would just download for longer. (Why reinvent the wheel?)


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## Syzygy

You're right, DogLover. I remember that, with the old SA TiVo, I would sometimes find one of the tuners on a channel that must've been used to record Showcase material (or advertisement clips) during the night.


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## Doug Brott

sbl said:


> From Fudzilla:
> 
> DirecTV HD TiVo announcement likely at CES


Whoa! talk about Fear *Uncertainty* and Deception .. DIRECTV will not be at CES2010 .. The fact that the article says that DIRECTV will be pulling out all of the stops @ CES is a clear indication that there is a lot more wishful thinking in that article than facts.


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## ndole

Doug Brott said:


> Whoa! talk about Fear *Uncertainty* and Deception .. DIRECTV will not be at CES2010 .. The fact that the article says that DIRECTV will be pulling out all of the stops @ CES is a clear indication that there is a lot more wishful thinking in that article than facts.


Sounds like a bunch of Fudgezilla.


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## hdtvfan0001

ndole_mbnd said:


> Sounds like a bunch of Fudgezilla.


Bogusarama....

There will be several DBSTalkers there who will be able to testify first hand (like last year) that DirecTV will not be exhibiting at the CES.

Any announcements will likely have to come in the future from one or both of the partners on this project.


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## Richierich

And I will be taking lots of pictures as well as my Comrades in Arms!!!

Armed with Digital Cameras, going Crazy, looking at the latest Man Toys!!!

Why would our wives let us go there??? What were they thinking???

This could get EXPENSIVE!!! :lol:


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## sbl

Fudzilla is a tech news site started by a former contributing editor to the UK tech news site The Inquirer. I don't follow Fudzilla regularly.


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## Movieman

Syzygy said:


> Cross your fingers for that one. DirecTV's partial implementation of DLB was forced by their marketing folks, who insist on access to the background tuner for acquiring VOD. I think these same folks will require TiVo to give them access to the background tuner -- although I hope not.


Wont be a problem if they make a Whole Home Solution with 4 tuners. I know I can wish though.


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## kevinturcotte

For me to switch, it's basically got to be an HR10-250 with MPEG-4 support, SWM support, and MRV (Preferably with built in DECA). Wishlists are an absolute MUST for me to switch. Additional tuners would be nice, but since it's supposed to run on Directv hardware, I doubt that will happen. It also HAS to have an RF remote. And DVR fee would have to be per ACCOUNT, not per DVR like Tivo does with their stand alone models.


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## kevinturcotte

Movieman said:


> Wont be a problem if they make a Whole Home Solution with 4 tuners. I know I can wish though.


I still don't get this whole DVR with only 2 tuners. Let's shove 200 HD channels down their throat, but only allow them to record 2 of them at a time! Granted, I don't need a 200 tuner HD DVR (Not that I'd complain lol), but it should have at least 4 tuners, preferably 6, and even better, 8!


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## smiddy

kevinturcotte said:


> I still don't get this whole DVR with only 2 tuners. Let's shove 200 HD channels down their throat, but only allow them to record 2 of them at a time! Granted, I don't need a 200 tuner HD DVR (Not that I'd complain lol), but it should have at least 4 tuners, preferably 6, and even better, 8!


More than 2 yes, I totally agree, but I can't imagine needing more that 3 for our family, so 4 would be enough to cover our family. I think 6 or 8 would be overkill for most folks. Of course, we could all have more than one DVR too.


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## fairsailing

I have an old DTV Tivo Series 1 which is still in daily use. I use the Tosliink Optical connection for audio. What is the likelihood that the new HD TiVo will carry this connector type? TIA.


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## Shades228

fairsailing said:


> I have an old DTV Tivo Series 1 which is still in daily use. I use the Tosliink Optical connection for audio. What is the likelihood that the new HD TiVo will carry this connector type? TIA.


So far optical cables have still been put on equipment as standard. With the advent of HDMI I'm guessing that it will eventually go away but given that component with optical is still a common setup I wouldn't expect that to disappear any time soon.


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## hdtvfan0001

kevinturcotte said:


> I still don't get this whole DVR with only 2 tuners. Let's shove 200 HD channels down their throat, but only allow them to record 2 of them at a time! Granted, I don't need a 200 tuner HD DVR (Not that I'd complain lol), but it should have at least 4 tuners, preferably 6, and even better, 8!


I have *more* than 4 tuners via multiple HD DVRs.

As much as I'd love to get that 20 HD channels you reference, I don't see it delivered here...and they certainly wouldn't be "forcing it down my throat" when it happens. 

In contrast, I still don't get the *lust* some folks have for Tivo...

Unless they dispose of their historical cartoon user interface and add some *significant* storage and enhanced capabilities....my HR2x series HD DVR's will be more than just fine here.


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## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unless they dispose of their historical cartoon user interface and add some *significant* storage and enhanced capabilities....my HR2x series HD DVR's will be more than just fine here.


I personally don't understand or do ritual killing either, but some cultures enjoy it. While this is an extreme case of diversity, we don't need to understand or agree with differences, we should however allow folks the opportunity to be diverse without angst.


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## Syzygy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ... I still don't get the *lust* some folks have for Tivo...


Over 10 years' experience with TiVo (over 5 with the HR10-250) leads me to expect these improvements over the HR2x, _at a minimum_:

• Quick response to remote button presses at all times (and especially in the first few seconds after playback starts).
• No arbitrary limit to the number of Season Passes.
• No Press-and-hold functions that don't always engage but sometimes engage by accident.
• Searching that works consistently (going 11 or more days out and including all matches).
• Searches that obey a list of channels under the customer's control.
• Search-result lists that don't refresh themselves for no reason.
• True "Dual Live Buffers" rather than "DoublePlay".
• Instant Replay that goes back 8 seconds, and does it immediately (and doesn't play the new sound before displaying the new picture).
• A Pause button that acts immediately.
• A dedicated Slow Motion key.
• A real Clear button rather than a combination Exit-or-Clear button.
• A progress bar that shows how long a recording is when it's truncated (say, by rain fade).
• A more polite progress bar.
• Better-behaved autocorrection.
• Closed Captioning that stays on during FF1.
• Ability to use manual recording to capture what's in a buffer.
• Ability to change the Guide's sort order with one button press.
• Easier access to the To Do List, the series manager, and manual recording.
• Menus and lists that remember where you were.
• A button (Skip?) that goes directly to the top/bottom of a list.
• Buttons (Channel up/down) that go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list.


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## bdcottle

For those that want a DirecTivo HD (those that don’t want one, please don’t answer, you’ll just muck up the results) which option would you choose if you had a choice.
1) $200.00 up front lease fee and two year commitment.
2) $400.00 up front lease fee and no commitment.
3) $400.00 purchase cost and two year commitment.
4) $600.00 purchase cost and no commitment.


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## Syzygy

I'd choose #1. Leasing gets me free/cheap replacements, and a new two year commitment is no problem for me. (Seems like a no-brainer.)


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## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In contrast, I still don't get the *lust* some folks have for Tivo...


I think it depends on HOW one uses a DVR.

I NEVER understood why someone would want a DVR until I decided to _TRY_ a TiVo. To me it was a glorified VCR, until I realized TiVo made TV my way. Though I have come to depend on standard DVR features (like the ability to record) which meant that the HR2x were a neccessity for my DirecTV account, I still don't get that same feeling with the HR2x as I do with my TiVos.

If the price is right, I will most likely replace two current DirecTiVos with the new one... but I have YET to determine if I will replace my HR2xs yet. It will most certainly be dependent on the specs of the new TiVo, as well as the specs of the HR2xs when it's time for me to make my decision. It's also possible that I may choose to keep at least one HR2x in order for me to take part in CE.

At this time, there is only four things I like about the HR2x better than the current TiVos I use. The ability to pad back-to-back programs on the same channel. The ability to bookmark. The ability to see conflicts in the To Do List, and the space meter. Though not counted among the features, CE (mentioned above) is a positive as well.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unless they dispose of their historical cartoon user interface and add some *significant* storage and enhanced capabilities....my HR2x series HD DVR's will be more than just fine here.


I STRONGLY PREFER TiVo's user interface over DirecTV's. Is TiVo's cartoony... somewhat, but then I always thought Windows XP was as well. To me, it works for what it is. While I think DirecTV has made great strides in their GUI since the HR20 came out, DirecTV's first GUI for the HR20 made it look like it was something that came out of the 80s. Sure, it has been improved since then, but it still doesn't look very modern.

I'm not sure what you mean by "*significant storage*"? There is a stand-alone TiVo out there with a 1TB hard drive in it... and the ability to add an eSATA hard drive to it... which adds to the internal hard drive instead of replacing it like the HR2x does. I would think that DirecTV would allow TiVo to at least have a 500gb internal drive like the HR23-700... and I'm not sure why they would have a problem with the use of an eSATA drive... particularly if TiVo uses it like DirecTV does (replacing the internal hard drive instead of in addition to).

As far as Enhanced Capabilities, it all depends on your taste.

For those parents out there with little kids, I can't imagine any of them not _*LOVING*_ TiVo KidZone (said to be coming to the NEW DirecTiVo).

Though I would not normally consider it to be an "Enhanced Capability", the ability to have more than 50 Season Passes is definately a GREAT capability.

I STILL miss WishLists on my HR23....

I could go on, but again, it all depends on one's taste.

~Alan


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## Shades228

Wishlists are the only thing that I have on my wishlist for the HR series.


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## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> • Searches that obey a list of channels under the customer's control.


Though I may question some of your other things on the list... the above stands out to me.

I wonder if DirecTV will require TiVo to do otherwise?

~Alan


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## Syzygy

Yes, Alan, I worry about that too. 

I feel that one can never underestimate the evil in a marketer's mind -- and that feeling has surely been reinforced by DirecTV's behavior over the years.


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## dodge boy

Movieman said:


> Wont be a problem if they make a Whole Home Solution with 4 tuners. I know I can wish though.


but I have 5 DVRs right now and that would be 10 tuners.... :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> Over 10 years' experience with TiVo (over 5 with the HR10-250) leads me to expect these improvements over the HR2x, _at a minimum_:
> 
> • Quick response to remote button presses at all times (and especially in the first few seconds after playback starts).
> • No arbitrary limit to the number of Season Passes.
> • No Press-and-hold functions that don't always engage but sometimes engage by accident.
> • Searching that works consistently (going 11 or more days out and including all matches).
> • Searches that obey a list of channels under the customer's control.
> • Search-result lists that don't refresh themselves for no reason.
> • True "Dual Live Buffers" rather than "DoublePlay".
> • Instant Replay that goes back 8 seconds, and does it immediately (and doesn't play the new sound before displaying the new picture).
> • A Pause button that acts immediately.
> • A dedicated Slow Motion key.
> • A real Clear button rather than a combination Exit-or-Clear button.
> • A progress bar that shows how long a recording is when it's truncated (say, by rain fade).
> • A more polite progress bar.
> • Better-behaved auto correction.
> • Closed Captioning that stays on during FF1.
> • Ability to use manual recording to capture what's in a buffer.
> • Ability to change the Guide's sort order with one button press.
> • Easier access to the To Do List, the series manager, and manual recording.
> • Menus and lists that remember where you were.
> • A button (Skip?) that goes directly to the top/bottom of a list.
> • Buttons (Channel up/down) that go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list.


Nice list there.

The items I highlighted in blue seem quite minuscule or are actually so small in difference that I'm not sure any change is really needed - but I respect that this is *your* wish list.

As one who also lived with an HR10-250 before for almost 4 years myself...the Doubleplay/DLB differences seem much more a matter of style than substance....but that's just me.

I would hope that you will indeed see a number of these items in the new DirecTV Tivobox...as they were in the HR10 before.

Thanks for sharing the list. 


Alan Gordon said:


> I think it depends on HOW one uses a DVR.


Totally agree Alan.

In my case, everyone in this household seems to have "outgrown" the Tivo "look and feel". Even Mrs HDTVFAN, who respectfully has the technology sophistication of a spoon, thinks the old Tivo was "much too primitive once we all learned how to use it".

I suspect a household with youngins D) would welcome the previous "look and feel", as it was indeed very easy to learn and use.

My guess, however, is that Tivo will realize that things have changed over the years, both in terms of the skill sets of users, as well as expectations for capabilities...and the new Tivobox will likely be a mix of "old" and "new".

That will likely make alot of folks happy in the end.


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## kevinturcotte

Alan Gordon said:


> At this time, there is only four things I like about the HR2x better than the current TiVos I use. The ability to pad back-to-back programs on the same channel. The ability to bookmark. The ability to see conflicts in the To Do List, and the space meter. Though not counted among the features, CE (mentioned above) is a positive as well.


I had forgotten about those. I REALLY like the back-to-back programs on the same tuner, though again, more than 2 tuners would help alleviate this lol I see NO reason why Tivo couldn't, and shouldn't include this in ALL their DVRs though. And if for some reason it IS Directv patented (Seems funny nobody has done it), I would think they could include it in the forthcoming MPEG-4 DirecTivo.


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## kevinturcotte

dodge boy said:


> but I have 5 DVRs right now and that would be 10 tuners.... :lol:


Give me the ability to record a show on a different DVR FROM the DVR I'm currently on when there's a conflict, and that would be a step in the right direction. Letting the receiver automatically do it itself when it comes to Series Links would be closer yet!


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## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> Over 10 years' experience with TiVo (over 5 with the HR10-250) leads me to expect these improvements over the HR2x, _at a minimum_:
> 
> • Ability to use manual recording to capture what's in a buffer.


I must not understand this one. I thought I do this all the time on my HR2x's. Heck, I've even gotten the half hour show at the backend of the 90 min buffer...unless I don't understand what you meant which is entirely possible.

Mike


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## Syzygy

MicroBeta said:


> I must not understand this one. I thought I do this all the time on my HR2x's. Heck, I've even gotten the half hour show at the backend of the 90 min buffer...unless I don't understand what you meant which is entirely possible.


I just tried this on my HR21 again the other day, and it wouldn't work (although it always pretends that it works). I'm talking about *manual recording*. The backup method is to rewind into the buffer a little ways and press Record. This avoids using the manual recording interface, but you can't capture exactly what you want if the material you want isn't correctly aligned with the schedule because of a live event, or if it's only a fragment of a long show. The HR10-250 does what I want it to do.


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## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> I just tried this on my HR21 again the other day, and it wouldn't work (although it always pretends that it works). I'm talking about *manual recording*. The backup method is to rewind into the buffer a little ways and press Record. This avoids using the manual recording interface, but you can't capture exactly what you want if the material you want isn't correctly aligned with the schedule because of a live event, or if it's only a fragment of a long show. The HR10-250 does what I want it to do.


Now I'm really confused.

Are you saying it's easier to do a manual recording for something in the buffer rather then pressing the record button because that's what I always do?

What is "correctly aligned with the schedule" mean?

I must be seriously missing something. 

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> Now I'm really confused.
> 
> Are you saying it's easier to do a manual recording for something in the buffer rather then pressing the record button because that's what I always do?
> 
> What is "correctly aligned with the schedule" mean?
> 
> I must be seriously missing something.
> 
> Mike


I got lost on that too....so its not just you Mike....


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## Alan Gordon

MicroBeta said:


> I must be seriously missing something.


Let's say a sporting event runs 15 minutes long into a 30 minute program which screws up the guide information. The HR23 would record the last 15 minutes of the sporting event and the first 15 minutes of the 30 minute program. You could record the 30 minute program with a 15 minute padding, but you've now taken up 15 minutes worth of space on your DVR.

TiVo allows you to tell it what times in the buffer you want it to start and end.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In my case, everyone in this household seems to have "outgrown" the Tivo "look and feel". Even Mrs HDTVFAN, who respectfully has the technology sophistication of a spoon, thinks the old Tivo was "much too primitive once we all learned how to use it".


Is TiVo the most sophisticated looking GUI out there? No. Are there enhancements TiVo could add? Sure!

That being said, I'm the exact opposite. I always feel like I'm going backward when I switch from my TiVo Series 3 to the HR2x. The only times I've wished I was watching something on the HR2x was on a few times where I wish I had been able to add padding... or times where I wish I had been able to add a bookmark.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I suspect a household with youngins D) would welcome the previous "look and feel", as it was indeed very easy to learn and use.


I don't know anyone with youngins (that's a Southern word, y'all!) who have a TiVo, but I agree.

My Grandmother and Mom have areas in which they are technically inclined, but STB's are not one of them, and both took to TiVo right from the start. I wouldn't want to guess how annoying it would be to teach them the HR2x GUI.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> My guess, however, is that Tivo will realize that things have changed over the years, both in terms of the skill sets of users, as well as expectations for capabilities...and the new Tivobox will likely be a mix of "old" and "new".
> 
> That will likely make alot of folks happy in the end.


My stand-alone TiVos have gained several new capabilities over the years... some of which have come AFTER DirecTV added them to the HR2x GUI, so I'm hoping that some of DirecTV's other features will become TiVo features in the future.

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> Is TiVo the most sophisticated looking GUI out there? No. Are there enhancements TiVo could add? Sure!
> 
> That being said, I'm the exact opposite. I always feel like I'm going backward when I switch from my TiVo Series 3 to the HR2x.
> 
> I don't know anyone with youngins (that's a Southern word, y'all!) who have a TiVo, but I agree.
> 
> My Grandmother and Mom have areas in which they are technically inclined, but STB's are not one of them, and both took to TiVo right from the start. I wouldn't want to guess how annoying it would be to teach them the HR2x GUI.
> 
> My stand-alone TiVos have gained several new capabilities over the years... some of which have come AFTER DirecTV added them to the HR2x GUI, so I'm hoping that some of DirecTV's other features will become TiVo features in the future.
> 
> ~Alan


Guess I'm not a tree hugger....was glad to get away from the old Tivo unit and its Fred Flintstone age GUI.

But since my 8 year old Grandson, 19 year old daughter, and technologically dysfunctional spouse all have had learned the HR2x HD DVRs in less than an hour each....guess it can't be too tough for the youngins' in this neck of the woods. :lol:

Nothing wrong with having different tastes though....so hopefully the next Tivobox meets your expectations on both the GUI and functional fronts.


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing wrong with having different tastes though....so hopefully the next Tivobox meets your expectations on both the GUI and functional fronts.


Personally, I'm "rooting" for the HR2x to make enough changes between now and the time of release for the TiVo, that I won't even care that it's out.

I just don't have a lot of faith in that happening...

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

Alan Gordon said:


> Personally, I'm "rooting" for the HR2x to make enough changes between now and the time of release for the TiVo, that I won't even care that it's out.
> 
> I just don't have a lot of faith in that happening...
> ~Alan


Yeah and I bet your Grandmother and Mom would like to have The Travel Channel in HD!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> Personally, I'm "rooting" for the HR2x to make enough changes between now and the time of release for the TiVo, that I won't even care that it's out.
> 
> I just don't have a lot of faith in that happening...
> 
> ~Alan


Ye of little faith. 

Assuming the new Tivobox shows up 2Q 2010 some time as speculated...there's plenty of time for lots to happen on the HR2x front in the interim.

In the end, we all want to see the HR2x units perform well and maximize a great viewing experience for everyone.


----------



## Sixto

Just a reminder for those walking the hallways later in the week ... and peaking into dark areas ... and listening at the bar ... 

My top-10, (I know others had lots of additional questions):

Will the new TiVo firmware only run on new hardware (not available for HR23 or prior)?
Assuming only on new hardware, will you be able to a download upgrade from the DirecTV developed firmware, to the TiVo firmware?
Will the TiVo code support DirecTV MRV (stream), or TiVo MRV (copy/play), or Both?
Will TiVo MRV inter-operate with non-TiVo MRV?
HD GUI? with Picture-in-Guide (PIG)?
TiVo2Go?
New Peanut with colored buttons? How about TiVo Glo?
DLB as it has always been?
TiVo Desktop Support (2.8 or later) for Music/Video/Photos?
Assuming, but may want to confirm ... SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21
Or just have the TiVo guy/gal just casually check off yes/no on a napkin.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Just a reminder for those walking the hallways later in the week ... and peaking into dark areas ... and listening at the bar ...
> 
> My top-10, (I know others had lots of additional questions):
> 
> Will the new TiVo firmware only run on new hardware (not available for HR23 or prior)?
> Assuming only on new hardware, will you be able to a download upgrade from the DirecTV developed firmware, to the TiVo firmware?
> Will the TiVo code support DirecTV MRV (stream), or TiVo MRV (copy/play), or Both?
> Will TiVo MRV inter-operate with non-TiVo MRV?
> HD GUI? with Picture-in-Guide (PIG)?
> TiVo2Go?
> New Peanut with colored buttons? How about TiVo Glo?
> DLB as it has always been?
> TiVo Desktop Support (2.8 or later) for Music/Video/Photos?
> Assuming, but may want to confirm ... SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21
> Or just have the TiVo guy/gal just casually check off yes/no on a napkin.


Printed out your list to take along you know where. :lol:


----------



## smiddy

Sixto said:


> Just a reminder for those walking the hallways later in the week ... and peaking into dark areas ... and listening at the bar ...
> 
> My top-10, (I know others had lots of additional questions):
> 
> Will the new TiVo firmware only run on new hardware (not available for HR23 or prior)?
> Assuming only on new hardware, will you be able to a download upgrade from the DirecTV developed firmware, to the TiVo firmware?
> Will the TiVo code support DirecTV MRV (stream), or TiVo MRV (copy/play), or Both?
> Will TiVo MRV inter-operate with non-TiVo MRV?
> HD GUI? with Picture-in-Guide (PIG)?
> TiVo2Go?
> New Peanut with colored buttons? How about TiVo Glo?
> DLB as it has always been?
> TiVo Desktop Support (2.8 or later) for Music/Video/Photos?
> Assuming, but may want to confirm ... SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21
> Or just have the TiVo guy/gal just casually check off yes/no on a napkin.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Printed out your list to take along you know where. :lol:


I'll make sure hdtvfan0001 and I get these and other questions answered!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I'll make sure hdtvfan0001 and I get these and other questions answered!


DBSTalk team-work in action.


----------



## smiddy

Yep! :lol:


----------



## loudo

You guys that are going to CES, have a safe trip, and we look forward to your reports.


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Ye of little faith.
> 
> Assuming the new Tivobox shows up 2Q 2010 some time as speculated...there's plenty of time for lots to happen on the HR2x front in the interim.


Over the years, I've seen the amount of complaints I have regarding the HR2x dwindle... something I try HARD to stress over the years... making sure the folks at DirecTV know how much I appreciate their hard work... in spite of my criticisms.

That being said, while I can see DirecTV continue to improve the HR2x... I have reasons to not have a lot faith in _SOME_ of my issues being changed/improved.

~Alan


----------



## kevinturcotte

smiddy said:


> I'll make sure hdtvfan0001 and I get these and other questions answered!


Check to see if it'll be an RF remote, or IR only


----------



## Richierich

Sixto said:


> Just a reminder for those walking the hallways later in the week ... and peaking into dark areas ... and listening at the bar ...
> 
> My top-10, (I know others had lots of additional questions):
> 
> Will the new TiVo firmware only run on new hardware (not available for HR23 or prior)?
> Assuming only on new hardware, will you be able to a download upgrade from the DirecTV developed firmware, to the TiVo firmware?
> Will the TiVo code support DirecTV MRV (stream), or TiVo MRV (copy/play), or Both?
> Will TiVo MRV inter-operate with non-TiVo MRV?
> HD GUI? with Picture-in-Guide (PIG)?
> TiVo2Go?
> New Peanut with colored buttons? How about TiVo Glo?
> DLB as it has always been?
> TiVo Desktop Support (2.8 or later) for Music/Video/Photos?
> Assuming, but may want to confirm ... SWM, DoD, Interactive, AM21
> Or just have the TiVo guy/gal just casually check off yes/no on a napkin.


I'm making a list because the NEW MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO is the Number One Item on my Agenda as hdtvfan001 is taking pictures I will have to find out where the TiVo booth is so I can direct him there while he is snapping pictures incessantly.

Can't wait to get there as we are 6 days from blasting off from Hartsfield Airport.


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> I'm making a list because the NEW MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO is the Number One Item on my Agenda as hdtvfan001 is taking pictures I will have to find out where the TiVo booth is so I can direct him there while he is snapping pictures incessantly.


While not exactly DirecTV-related, it's possible that TiVo could choose to debut their new "TiVo Premiere" DVRs at CES.

With rumored GUI changes being made to this unit, it might be interesting to check out in case some of these changes end up making it to the DirecTiVo.

Either way, it certainly would be fun to speculate! 

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> While not exactly DirecTV-related, it's possible that TiVo could choose to debut their new "TiVo Premiere" DVRs at CES.
> 
> With rumored GUI changes being made to this unit, it might be interesting to check out in case some of these changes end up making it to the DirecTiVo.
> 
> Either way, it certainly would be fun to speculate!
> 
> ~Alan


Assuming we are allowed to actually view things, let alone view things closely....yes....we may see some interesting things at the CES this coming weekend.


----------



## Richierich

If anyone else has any more questions to ask the TiVo folks if we get a chance to talk to them, let me or hdtvfan0001 know as I am keeping a List of Questions to ask them so I don't forget anything.

I will be buying one as soon as it comes out so I am definitely interested in finding out as much as possible about this new DIRECTIVO.


----------



## bondheli

At this late hour Directv is still not on the CES exhibitors list, so unless they're sharing the stage with tivo, they aren't going to be there. Dish network is though, strange that Dish would be there and DTV wouldn't.


----------



## SledgeHammer

I was a Tivo lover and dispised the HR2x's when I was forced to switch to them. But, I've had it for 2yrs now, and its not that bad . It does pretty much everything my HR10-250 did. Yes, it still has some glitches that annoy me. I've learned to live without DLB and just record everything and toggle between them that way. I remember, I used to DLB all the time on my Tivo, but I kind of doubt I'll go back to that method. I haven't yet.

Only thing that REALLY sucks about the HR2x's is that they ripped out the OTA (to make more $$$ of course). I'd hope the Tivo unit sticks it back in, but from everything we've heard, it'll be the same exact hardware.

I doubt I'd pay any extra $$$ per month to get a Tivo back. If it just involves buying a new box (a one time charge), thats one thing, but an extra $5 / month? Not a chance in heck.

Only other area where my HR10-250 was superior was in looks. The HR10-250 had a very smooth and elegant look to it. The HR2x's look like they got beat with an ugly stick... a whole bunch of times.


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> Yeah and I bet your Grandmother and Mom would like to have The Travel Channel in HD!!!


I'm not sure they've ever watched the SD channel... besides, they don't have an HD receiver... perhaps when the new DirecTiVo comes out.

In my 15 years (well, 15 years in March) with DirecTV (though DirecTV only credits me with 5-7 years...dang Pegasus), I believe I have only watched the channel once or twice.



SledgeHammer said:


> Only other area where my HR10-250 was superior was in looks. The HR10-250 had a very smooth and elegant look to it. The HR2x's look like they got beat with an ugly stick... a whole bunch of times.


I prefer the looks of the HR2xs over the HR10-250.

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bondheli said:


> At this late hour Directv is still not on the CES exhibitors list, so unless they're sharing the stage with tivo, they aren't going to be there. Dish network is though, strange that Dish would be there and DTV wouldn't.


Not that strange...same as last year.

It's a matter of where a company wants to spend their marketing dollar.

DirecTV is still growing subscribers, just successfully got their latest HD satellite launched are preparing to start up industry leading capacity, and keeps coming up with new things each year (new Tivobox in 2010 for one thing)....so it would seem other Dish would have more need to promote themselves at a vendor conference like CES.

In addition, last year.....DirecTV did have some people there, but not in a dedicated booth.

There's no reason to believe that they will be there in a booth this year.


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In addition, last year.....DirecTV did have some people there, but not in a dedicated booth.


Maybe my memory is hazy, or I'm thinking of another company, but I'm wanting to say that one year when DirecTV was not in attendance, they still made some announcements?!?!  

There could be more talk regarding the 3-D channel. Personally, I'd like to see DirecTV make some HD-LIL announcements for later this year during CES, but they may wait until D12 has been tested more thoroughly.

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

Last year I saw some folks from one company I can't recall right now but they were walking around talking and answering questions and they didn't have a booth so Directv could have some personnel there checking everything out and answering questions.


----------



## RAD

I thought I read somewhere what Robert Mercer from DirecTV would be in Vegas and that it was expected that he's make some press announcements from there.


----------



## Syzygy

To those asking questions at CES: Please, please try to find out whether the new DirecTiVo will allow the customer to manage the list of Channels I Receive -- and whether searching will honor that list as it has in the past. In other words, will DirecTV's evil design for the HR2x be prevented from affecting TiVo software?


----------



## smiddy

kevinturcotte said:


> Check to see if it'll be an RF remote, or IR only


Will do!


----------



## smiddy

Syzygy said:


> To those asking questions at CES: Please, please try to find out whether the new DirecTiVo will allow the customer to manage the list of Channels I Receive -- and whether searching will honor that list as it has in the past. In other words, will DirecTV's evil design for the HR2x be prevented from affecting TiVo software?


I'll ask it in a more subtle fashion.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> I'll ask it in a more subtle fashion.


No kidding....subtle usually works a whole lot better.


----------



## Syzygy

To be fair to me (I'm not that unsubtle in face-to-face conversation), the "In other words" part was meant for local eyes only.  Certainly not for those of DirecTV.


----------



## kevinturcotte

smiddy said:


> Will do!


Also, if it will be RF, will it take BOTH RF and IR commands (Unlike the HR2x)?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> To be fair to me (I'm not that unsubtle in face-to-face conversation), the "In other words" part was meant for local eyes only.  Certainly not for those of DirecTV.


No problemo....


----------



## smiddy

It's all good!


----------



## woollybully

My wishlist (in addition to the other suggestions):

Tivo Guide instead of non-DVR friendly DTV guide.
Ability to permanently disable the light ring on the front of the HR2x.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

:welcome_s woollybully!

Electrical tape does wonders for the front panel lights


----------



## kevinturcotte

Why don't they just say the heck with it and let US design the receiver? :lol:


----------



## woollybully

Stuart Sweet said:


> :welcome_s woollybully!
> 
> Electrical tape does wonders for the front panel lights


Pretty ugly on the silver ones though. I thought about pulling off the cover and snipping the lights. If they whine about warranty blah blah I can just threaten to cancel my service altogether.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

kevinturcotte said:


> Why don't they just say the heck with it and let US design the receiver? :lol:


I suspect things are a bit too far along for that to happen.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ah, that's what the silver duct tape is for


----------



## Richierich

woollybully said:


> My wishlist (in addition to the other suggestions):
> 
> Tivo Guide instead of non-DVR friendly DTV guide.


AMEN to that Suggestion. I love the User Friendly TiVo Guide where I can Highlight a particular channel and see what is on or will be on for the next 4 or 5 hours.

Then tab down to the next channel and do the same.


----------



## Beerstalker

It's not exactly the same richierich, but did you know that you can hit highlight the current show on a specific channel in the guide and then hit the left button to highlight the channel number/name and then hit info. It will then give you a list of all upcoming shows on that channel. I believe you can then hit the left button and it will go back to the standard guide, where you can select another channel, hit info and it will list that channels upcoming shows, etc.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Beerstalker said:


> It's not exactly the same richierich, but did you know that you can hit highlight the current show on a specific channel in the guide and then hit the left button to highlight the channel number/name and then hit info. It will then give you a list of all upcoming shows on that channel. I believe you can then hit the left button and it will go back to the standard guide, where you can select another channel, hit info and it will list that channels upcoming shows, etc.


Knowing him (as I do)....I bet you just taught him something new today. :lol:


----------



## Richierich

Beerstalker said:


> It's not exactly the same richierich, but did you know that you can hit highlight the current show on a specific channel in the guide and then hit the left button to highlight the channel number/name and then hit info. It will then give you a list of all upcoming shows on that channel. I believe you can then hit the left button and it will go back to the standard guide, where you can select another channel, hit info and it will list that channels upcoming shows, etc.


Yes Beer Stalker I use the INFO BUTTON just for that very reason as it comes closest to simulating that experience but then you have to wait for it to populate the screen and then do it all again for the next channel.

The TiVo Guide was so much faster and visually easier to view at a glance.

Let's say I want to watch Golf and I don't know which Local Channel it is on.

I go to Channel 2 and look at the listing around 3:00 P.M. to 4:00 P.M., No Golf. I then go to Channel 5 and do the same, then Channel 11, then Channel 46 and I find the Golf Event and then I Select and Record it.

Of course I have a Series Link for it but some Golf Events are not covered by the Series Link so I have to search manually and yes, I can use the Smart Search Feature if they get it to work right in the future.

By the way, just What is Your Favorite Beer? (And don't just say Cold Beer).


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Knowing him (as I do)....I bet you just taught him something new today. :lol:


Didn't learn anything new as I use that Feature alot and was really glad when someone shared it with me about 6 months ago.

By the way, FanBoy, you are only 643 Posts behind at this time!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Didn't learn anything new as I use that Feature alot and was really glad when someone shared it with me about 6 months ago.
> 
> By the way, FanBoy, you are only 643 Posts behind at this time!!!


642...glad you like that feature.

Thanks.


----------



## Beerstalker

richierich said:


> Yes Beer Stalker I use the INFO BUTTON just for that very reason as it comes closest to simulating that experience but then you have to wait for it to populate the screen and then do it all again for the next channel.


Just wanted to make sure, as it took me a few weeks before I figured that out (originally it was one feature I missed from my Comcast box until I figured that out). It is definitely kind of slow though, as I think it is actually running a search for that channel rather than just looking at the guide info and re-organizing it.



richierich said:


> By the way, just What is Your Favorite Beer? (And don't just say Cold Beer).


I'd probably have to go with Coors Original (at least as far as Macrobrews, it's hard to choose a favorite microbrew). I usually have to go with Budweiser around here though as the bars and grocery stores don't carry Coors OG often, and when they do it tends to be old.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Now I just know I'm gonna have to corner those Tivo folks at the CES this coming weekend....:lol:


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now I just know I'm gonna have to corner those Tivo folks at the CES this coming weekend....:lol:


I am going to ask them if the hard drive will be replaceable and will it be as easy as the HR2X DVR. With the HR10-250 you had to run BlessTiVo software and it was not easy.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> I am going to ask them if the hard drive will be replaceable and will it be as easy as the HR2X DVR. With the HR10-250 you had to run BlessTiVo software and it was not easy.


Yeah....like they'll let you in the room to ask those kinds of questions....:lol:


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yeah....like they'll let you in the room to ask those kinds of questions....:lol:


Never Ever Count Out The Silver Tongued FOX!!!

You can ask my wife about that as I constantly amaze her and yes Bribery still works in 2010!!! :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Never Ever Count Out The Silver Tongued FOX!!!
> 
> You can ask my wife about that as I constantly amaze her and yes Bribery still works in 2010!!! :lol:


:imwith:

OK....I have a new plan....:lol:


----------



## Syzygy

Beerstalker said:


> [Using the INFO button to list all of a channel's shows] is definitely kind of slow though, as I think it is actually running a search for that channel rather than just looking at the guide info and re-organizing it...


Yes, it's definitely using the regular search method. If you stay in the list long enough, you'll get to see it refresh for no reason, just as the HR2x does in all other searches (even including the Sort Programs by Category option in the Guide).


----------



## Sixto

Listening to today's 42 minute TiVo CEO presentation now ...

The usual TiVo "leadership" stuff at the beginning ...

Lots of talk of the Dish litigation ...

Now AT&T and Verizon litigation ... at 23 mins ...


----------



## Sixto

3% of costs towards subscriber acquisition .... money better spent on R&D for partnerships ...

Best Buy very important ... later this year ... bundling ... 

Comcast deployment ... delay was caused by infrastructure (not TiVo software) ... resolved late 2009 ... much more error-free now ... excited ... Comcast committed ... next is tru2way ... some TiVo exclusive markets ... at 31 mins ...

Cox ... early trials ... near future ...

International ... 

Television behavior of consumers ... enhancement of experience ... at 35 mins ...

Audience Research ... 

TV everywhere ... 

No discussion of DirecTV. 

Format of discussion was moderator driven. Moderator never asked about DirecTV and DirecTV was only referenced once, in the same sentence as Comcast and others.

Discussion was made by Tom Rogers (TiVo CEO) at 20th Annual Global Entertainment, Media & Telecommunications Conference, January 5, 2010; The Palace Hotel, San Francisco, CA


----------



## tuff bob

well that sounds ugly for us Tivo lovers


----------



## hdtvfan0001

tuff bob said:


> well that sounds ugly for us Tivo lovers


They don't cover everything on every such presentation. Their last one specifically reiterated the DirecTV plans.

We may learn more when a few of us onsite at the CES later this week/weekend attempt to see what we can learn there.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They don't cover everything on every such presentation. Their last one specifically reiterated the DirecTV plans.
> 
> We may learn more when a few of us onsite at the CES later this week/weekend attempt to see what we can learn there.


Is TiVo a part of the RVU Alliance? Humm!?! :scratchin


----------



## CJTE

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They don't cover everything on every such presentation. Their last one specifically reiterated the DirecTV plans.
> 
> We may learn more when a few of us onsite at the CES later this week/weekend attempt to see what we can learn there.


I don't believe Tivo/DirecTV are at the show this year.
I guess maybe I SHOULD have gone today and gotten a jump start on you guys before you get into town (as well as clear up whatever this badging issue is).


----------



## smiddy

CJTE said:


> I don't believe Tivo/DirecTV are at the show this year.
> I guess maybe I SHOULD have gone today and gotten a jump start on you guys before you get into town (as well as clear up whatever this badging issue is).


I was of the impression that TiVo would be there.

EDIT: http://myces.bdmetrics.com/CDT-6277933/TiVo-Inc-/Details.aspx


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CJTE said:


> I don't believe Tivo/DirecTV are at the show this year.
> I guess maybe I SHOULD have gone today and gotten a jump start on you guys before you get into town (as well as clear up whatever this badging issue is).


Tivo is there as an exhibitor and has rooms reserved. DirecTV does not.

What we be learned remains to be seen....but yes...being there some time over the Thursday - Sunday timeframe coming up is a plust to at least attempt to find out what's going on there these days. Several of us will be there, and hope to report back if and what we learn.


----------



## Mike Greer

Been away for a while - I'm sure I was missed! 

Now that Sunday Ticket is over I'm back to the 'Should I stay or should I go' dilemma with DirecTV and Tivo is a big part of the question. I have given up on the HR2x ever improving and just have to accept that if I stay I'll have to live with it :eek2: or switch to the DirecTivo if it is ever released.

I'm interested in how this new mysterious Tivo will stack up against Dish Network hardware. If they can give Dish a run for the money people like me would have no reason to consider Dish Network. If they just duplicate HR2x box then what's the point? Sure some people like the Tivo interface but how big of a deal is that?

Here's hoping that the new DirecTivo will have basic features like:

Speed - bet you didn't see that coming! :lol: Speed would include things like being able to quickly scroll through anything - the guide, recorded shows, menus etc. None of that lovely 'Please Wait' screen either!

IR and RF remote - at the same damn time! Why this is beyond the capabilities of the HR boxes is crazy. I want to be able to use my RF remote AND my Sling!

Reliable External Expansion - More like Dish - why not have internal and external drives both live?

Usable Trick play - Slow motion is useless on the HR boxes - hopefully not a problem on any Tivo.

OTA / more steams - I know this isn't going to happen but I would give up much cash and features if I could record 2 satellite steams and 2 OTA streams while watching a previous recording like the Dish 722k can do. I can dream right?

Networking - A Tivo version of MRV - that's actually functional - would be a way to get around the 2 recording limit the HR and current Tivo boxes have. I know it is supposed to be coming soon to the HR receivers but I suspect having a working MRV without Tivo is a long way off. 

I still have hope for the Tivo being an improvement for DirecTV but it doesn't look good. You'd think Tivo would have already had a press release with such big news. Those of you at CES don't let them off easy!


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike Greer said:


> Networking - A Tivo version of MRV - that's actually functional - would be a way to get around the 2 recording limit the HR and current Tivo boxes have. I know it is supposed to be coming soon to the HR receivers but I suspect having a working MRV without Tivo is a long way off.


Not as far off as you might think .. There is a possibility (perhaps 50/50) that you will be able to see MRV in January


----------



## smiddy

Doug Brott said:


> Not as far off as you might think .. There is a possibility (perhaps 50/50) that you will be able to see MRV in January


That's like a coin flip away, maybe!


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> Yes, it's definitely using the regular search method. If you stay in the list long enough, you'll get to see it refresh for no reason, just as the HR2x does in all other searches (even including the Sort Programs by Category option in the Guide).


Again, it refreshes when it crosses a time boundary. If you start searching at 5:59, it will show you a list of shows that are still showing at that time. A minute later, it refreshes the list to be accurate to the current time.

I don't like it either but that doesn't make it "for no reason."


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> Not as far off as you might think .. There is a possibility (perhaps 50/50) that you will be able to see MRV in January


But please note, Doug, that Mike said "a *working* MRV without Tivo is a long way off."


----------



## Syzygy

gregjones said:


> Again, [a search list] refreshes when [the HR2x] crosses a time boundary. If you start searching at 5:59, it will show you a list of shows that are still showing at that time. A minute later, it refreshes the list to be accurate to the current time.
> 
> I don't like it either but that doesn't make it "for no reason."


You post this claim repeatedly, in spite of the fact that refreshing usually happens at odd times like 3:08pm, and (in the case of the Sort Programs by Category option) when nothing is recording. Wake up and smell the coffee!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> You post this claim repeatedly, in spite of the fact that refreshing usually happens at odd times like 3:08pm, and (in the case of the Sort Programs by Category option) when nothing is recording. Wake up and smell the coffee!


Agreed...and we have no control over the refresh times either....but just need to understand it happens.


----------



## jacmyoung

Syzygy said:


> But please note, Doug, that Mike said "a *working* MRV without Tivo is a long way off."


That is why he is wrong, a working MRV without TiVo is here, from the DirecTV presentation it appears they will roll it out soon, like Doug said.

Although if I read those new Sling gigs from the CES, it seems DISH is taking the wireless MRV route. Will see how that works out.


----------



## Movieman

One thing I got a chance to try over the holidays was a Tivo box at one of my buddies houses. The feature that he should me that I found pretty neat with that it would find programs similar to the ones that he watches and record them. At first I thought it could be annoying to have all these downloads that I personally didnt record but he should be that once its fine tuned its pretty damn good. He had programs that I didnt know about and would have like to have seen them in their first seasons.


----------



## JBernardK

jacmyoung said:


> That is why he is wrong, a working MRV without TiVo is here, from the DirecTV presentation it appears they will roll it out soon, like Doug said.
> 
> Although if I read those new Sling gigs from the CES, it seems DISH is taking the wireless MRV route. Will see how that works out.


"is here" = "it appears they will roll it out soon"


----------



## Syzygy

Movieman said:


> One thing I got a chance to try over the holidays was a Tivo box at one of my buddies houses. The feature that he should me that I found pretty neat with that it would find programs similar to the ones that he watches and record them. At first I thought it could be annoying to have all these downloads that I personally didnt record but he should be that once its fine tuned its pretty damn good...


I think you're referring to the [in]famous Suggestions feature shared by all TiVos. I used to like it, but only because the suggested programs gave me a feeling for how much disk space remained. After the first year, I hardly ever actually watched any of those shows.

The HR10-250 has a Deleted Items folder, which serves a similar purpose -- as a poor mans' space meter -- so we have Suggestions disabled on that machine.


----------



## Daniel

Movieman said:


> One thing I got a chance to try over the holidays was a Tivo box at one of my buddies houses. The feature that he should me that I found pretty neat with that it would find programs similar to the ones that he watches and record them. At first I thought it could be annoying to have all these downloads that I personally didnt record but he should be that once its fine tuned its pretty damn good. He had programs that I didnt know about and would have like to have seen them in their first seasons.


People have a love/hate relationship with TiVo Suggestions. Some people love it, some hate it. Personally, it is one of the features that I miss since my last DirecTiVo died.

The theory is that suggestions will keep your TiVo full of stuff you might want to watch, which is why they never put in an available space indicator.

Suggestions will never cause one of the programs that you record to be deleted and they will be deleted before anything else to free up space for a scheduled recording. You _can _turn it off if you want.

Now where is that new DirecTiVo HD!


----------



## cartrivision

Can anyone who has seen a "current generation" non-DirecTV Tivo in action tell me if they still interrupt audio and video during a lot of their user initiated GUI operations (like the DirecTV R10's did) or do they PIP the picture like the HR2x's do? 

If they still go silent/pictureless during some of the GUI operations, that would be a deal-breaker that would prevent me from even considering getting one of the new DirecTV Tivo boxes.


----------



## JB1073

My series 3 Tivo keeps live or recording playing in background (PIP) when doing a search or pick recordings. My series 2 still kills everything playing when you hit the guide button. If you hit the Tivo button to search internet or look at prior recordings, both kill everything you are watching.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Cartrivision, you might want to contact Capmeister about that. His article, here, details his recent experiences with the new TiVo.


----------



## jacmyoung

JBernardK said:


> "is here" = "it appears they will roll it out soon"


Strangly in this case the above is correct


----------



## kevinturcotte

JB1073 said:


> My series 3 Tivo keeps live or recording playing in background (PIP) when doing a search or pick recordings. My series 2 still kills everything playing when you hit the guide button. If you hit the Tivo button to search internet or look at prior recordings, both kill everything you are watching.


Is there an option to stop that? I don't want a PIG and anything like that!


----------



## Sixto

Be interesting to see if there's any TiVo news after 12 midnight ET.

Last night there were lots of other embargo's lifted at midnight.

We'll see ...


----------



## ATARI

Sixto said:


> Be interesting to see if there's any TiVo news after 12 midnight ET.
> 
> Last night there were lots of other embargo's lifted at midnight.
> 
> We'll see ...


I'm not staying up.

See you back here tomorrow morning.


----------



## Syzygy

Well, here it is 20 minutes after 12 midnight ET, and there seems to be no breaking TiVo news. Oh, well...


----------



## CJTE

Mike Greer said:


> Been away for a while - I'm sure I was missed!
> 
> Now that Sunday Ticket is over I'm back to the 'Should I stay or should I go' dilemma with DirecTV and Tivo is a big part of the question. I have given up on the HR2x ever improving and just have to accept that if I stay I'll have to live with it :eek2: or switch to the DirecTivo if it is ever released.


Please go where ever you find the best value. If you aren't finding that with DirecTV, then why are you still here?
(I'm not finding that with DirecTV but my only other option is Dish so I'm sitting tight).



Mike Greer said:


> I'm interested in how this new mysterious Tivo will stack up against Dish Network hardware. If they can give Dish a run for the money people like me would have no reason to consider Dish Network. If they just duplicate HR2x box then what's the point? Sure some people like the Tivo interface but how big of a deal is that?


What features of the Dish receivers do you like so much?
And are those features still available after the whole infringement deal tivo brought to dish (which I didn't follow very closely).



Mike Greer said:


> Here's hoping that the new DirecTivo will have basic features like:
> 
> Speed - bet you didn't see that coming! :lol: Speed would include things like being able to quickly scroll through anything - the guide, recorded shows, menus etc. None of that lovely 'Please Wait' screen either!


:lol: You want a tivo with speed? Are you ON speed!?



Mike Greer said:


> IR and RF remote - at the same damn time! Why this is beyond the capabilities of the HR boxes is crazy. I want to be able to use my RF remote AND my Sling!


I think the Tivo will have this. But what do I know...



Mike Greer said:


> Reliable External Expansion - More like Dish - why not have internal and external drives both live?


You know you have to pay a fee for that right? I think it's a one time fee though...



Mike Greer said:


> Usable Trick play - Slow motion is useless on the HR boxes - hopefully not a problem on any Tivo.


Can't really comment on that as I dont use slow motion.



Mike Greer said:


> OTA / more steams - I know this isn't going to happen but I would give up much cash and features if I could record 2 satellite steams and 2 OTA streams while watching a previous recording like the Dish 722k can do. I can dream right?


Yup.



Mike Greer said:


> Networking - A Tivo version of MRV - that's actually functional - would be a way to get around the 2 recording limit the HR and current Tivo boxes have. I know it is supposed to be coming soon to the HR receivers but I suspect having a working MRV without Tivo is a long way off.


DirecTVs HD DVRs are working on this. What most people seem to understand is that everyone has to develop this a little bit different otherwise they'll get nailed for copyright infringement. Like DirecTVs SWiM technology... IIRC DirecTV developed the technology that Dish's receivers use for single lines to the DVRs, Dish got it patented, and DirecTV had to go back to the drawing board.



Mike Greer said:


> I still have hope for the Tivo being an improvement for DirecTV but it doesn't look good. You'd think Tivo would have already had a press release with such big news. Those of you at CES don't let them off easy!


They haven't said anything thus far and the pre-show is over... (Eastern time that is... Pacific time they've still got 2 hours and 20 minutes. And Nevada is in the Pacific time zone).


----------



## Alan Gordon

Daniel said:


> The theory is that suggestions will keep your TiVo full of stuff you might want to watch, which is why they never put in an available space indicator.


Personally, I think TiVo should add a free space indicator. The HR2x is able to differentiate between programs marked KUD and others... I think TiVo could easily keep track of what is a Suggestion and what isn't.



cartrivision said:


> Can anyone who has seen a "current generation" non-DirecTV Tivo in action tell me if they still interrupt audio and video during a lot of their user initiated GUI operations (like the DirecTV R10's did) or do they PIP the picture like the HR2x's do?
> 
> If they still go silent/pictureless during some of the GUI operations, that would be a deal-breaker that would prevent me from even considering getting one of the new DirecTV Tivo boxes.


The current TiVos on the market work the same as the HR10-250 in regards to PIP and the like. The guide overlaps the live screen... but you can still hear it. Other menu options end the audio.

The ComcasTiVo however has a PIG and PIL, so it's possible that the DirecTV version may have the same thing. If the DirecTiVo has this, I'm HOPING that there is an option for it to be turned off. The PIL on the HR2x can be a PITA... and the PIG can sometimes be as well.

~Alan


----------



## jbjorgen

I'm so looking forward to this. I miss my DirecTivo


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> Personally, I think TiVo should add a free space indicator. The HR2x is able to differentiate between programs marked KUD and others... I think TiVo could easily keep track of what is a Suggestion and what isn't.


I may be wrong, but one of the issues I believe I read with this is due to the various compressions on different cable companies. As a result it doesn't know exactly how big a show will be before it records it. This of course is a problem since there is no real way to guess how much space you will need for an upcoming show which would lead to complaints of why did show A delete when I had 8 gigs free to record show B.

Now there are various software options you can use such as KMTTG or TivoPlaylist which will connect to your Tivo and tell you approximately how much free space you have. It isn't 100% accurate though due to how Tivo handles recordings.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> I may be wrong, but one of the issues I believe I read with this is due to the various compressions on different cable companies. As a result it doesn't know exactly how big a show will be before it records it. This of course is a problem since there is no real way to guess how much space you will need for an upcoming show which would lead to complaints of why did show A delete when I had 8 gigs free to record show B.
> 
> Now there are various software options you can use such as KMTTG or TivoPlaylist which will connect to your Tivo and tell you approximately how much free space you have. It isn't 100% accurate though due to how Tivo handles recordings.


Good points on the stand-alones, but since some cableco STBs and the HR2xs have a meter, TiVo could probably add one to their cable versions (ComcasTiVo, the Cox version) and the new DirecTiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

CJTE said:


> :lol: You want a tivo with speed? Are you ON speed!?


My TiVo Series 3 is consistently faster than my HR20-700/HR23-700. The only areas where they are faster is the GRID Guide and the Season Pass Manager/Series Link Prioritizer... and the TiVo Series 3 is faster at those than my HR10-250.

There's one other comparison I could make regarding speed, but any comparison I make would be referencing something I'm not allowed to (at this time).

~Alan


----------



## smiddy

jacmyoung said:


> That is why he is wrong, a working MRV without TiVo is here, from the DirecTV presentation it appears they will roll it out soon, like Doug said.
> 
> Although if I read those new Sling gigs from the CES, it seems DISH is taking the wireless MRV route. Will see how that works out.


DiSH by virtue of their purchase of Sling Media, could implement Slingbox into their DVRs, but that would have to be sometime this year.

I will try to find out as much as I can about the DirecTV-TiVo DVR. I suspect it would have to be backward compatible with current offerings though...but you never know.


----------



## CJTE

smiddy said:


> I will try to find out as much as I can about the DirecTV-TiVo DVR. I suspect it would have to be backward compatible with current offerings though...but you never know.


Makes 2 of us. I wonder if Tivo is going to be hiding deep in a conference room somewhere or if they'll be out on the exhibit floor?
And whether they'll mention anything about their DirecTV combo unit....

And I also wonder how long this bet you lost is supposed to go on for...?


----------



## hancox

Brennok said:


> I may be wrong, but one of the issues I believe I read with this is due to the various compressions on different cable companies. As a result it doesn't know exactly how big a show will be before it records it. This of course is a problem since there is no real way to guess how much space you will need for an upcoming show which would lead to complaints of why did show A delete when I had 8 gigs free to record show B.
> 
> Now there are various software options you can use such as KMTTG or TivoPlaylist which will connect to your Tivo and tell you approximately how much free space you have. It isn't 100% accurate though due to how Tivo handles recordings.


You're close - it had to do with compression, but not as an estimate (at least that way)

Actually had more to do with D* and HD-Lite for HD, and not wanting to have to admit that they were down-rezzing (and, thus, taking up less space).


----------



## hdtvfan0001

CJTE said:


> Makes 2 of us. I wonder if Tivo is going to be hiding deep in a conference room somewhere or if they'll be out on the exhibit floor?
> And whether they'll mention anything about their DirecTV combo unit....
> 
> And I also wonder how long this bet you lost is supposed to go on for...?


They have both an exhibit "area" (not in the main halls though), as well as a couple conference rooms there. Smiddy, RichieRich, and I will be among a group there who will be "looking around" to see what we can see and hear what we can hear.

Their location provides them with more of a "controled audience experience", or so I heard the other night on a CNET summary.

I took that to mean they can make sure who sees what.


----------



## Mike Greer

CJTE – 

Well, um, I plan on going where I find the best value. Because of Sunday Ticket I am/was stuck with DirecTV. I’m hoping that the new Tivo will make DirecTV the best value. My only problem with DirecTV is the HR2x DVRs. I’d be happy with the Dish Network hardware and price but want DirecTV programming. Too much to ask I guess….

I think I listed the features I care about –

Speed – I used to have a DirecTivo and the ‘Please wait’ sucked but other than that it was ‘faster’ than the HR boxes. 
Easily add additional storage space
IR/RF working at the same time
OTA and ability to record 4 streams at once (Dreaming I know but if Dish can why can’t DirecTV)
Fully functional Tivo equivalent of MRV
Trick play that works without annoying delays

Hopefully those that are attending the show will post some good news today although it does seem like we may be in for an even longer wait than most had hoped. Let’s keep our fingers crossed!


----------



## loudo

smiddy said:


> DiSH by virtue of their purchase of Sling Media, could implement Slingbox into their DVRs, but that would have to be sometime this year.
> 
> I will try to find out as much as I can about the DirecTV-TiVo DVR. I suspect it would have to be backward compatible with current offerings though...but you never know.


MRV is a great feature, but having Slingbox type unit built in the unit would even be better, allowing you to view channels, as well as recorded data. I have a Slingbox attached to my HR20-700 and would love to see DirecTV build a similar product right into the DVR.


----------



## Richierich

I have two Slingboxes and I just love them especially being able to view them when I am on Vacation via the Internet.


----------



## jacmyoung

smiddy said:


> DiSH by virtue of their purchase of Sling Media, could implement Slingbox into their DVRs, but that would have to be sometime this year.
> 
> I will try to find out as much as I can about the DirecTV-TiVo DVR. I suspect it would have to be backward compatible with current offerings though...but you never know.


I am surprised none of you have found TiVo yet.


----------



## Richierich

jacmyoung said:


> I am surprised none of you have found TiVo yet.


What exactly does that statement mean?


----------



## LameLefty

richierich said:


> What exactly does that statement mean?


I kind of took it with a religious context . . . :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> I kind of took it with a religious context . . . :lol:


:lol: Me too.


----------



## Syzygy

What?! Is Jeebus expected to appear at CES?


----------



## Sixto

seems awfully quiet ...


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> seems awfully quiet ...


Things may "pick up" this weekend...


----------



## Stuart Sweet

In the meantime, let's not bump this thread unnecessarily.


----------



## Sixto

meant to say awfully quiet at CES.

somewhat news that there's been no news.

companies usually announce early and then spend next few days talking.

with the silence, not so sure anything will be demonstrated, but may need to wait another day before judging.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> meant to say awfully quiet at CES.
> 
> somewhat news that there's been no news.
> 
> companies usually announce early and then spend next few days talking.
> 
> with the silence, not so sure anything will be demonstrated, but may need to wait another day before judging.


For what its worth....the Tivo locations there are CES are near the top of the target list for visitation this weekend by several of us....we intend to not only find out whatever we can, but share as well. 

They might be intentially "laying low" for a formal announcement some time after CES...


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...They might be intentially "laying low" for a formal announcement some time after CES...


You mean unlike the last year's CES?


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They might be intentially "laying low" for a formal announcement some time after CES...


It seemed like the "Premiere" and "Premiere XL" had a chance of being announced. Maybe not. Or maybe later.


----------



## RAD

CNBC had Tivo CEO on for an interview and not one mention of DirecTV/Tivo.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Not terribly surprising...

My formal prediction (and honestly, I hope I'm wrong) ...

The people at the TiVo booth will say that the new device is "on track" and there will be very little else there. Sadly that would represent no change from last year.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not terribly surprising...
> 
> My formal prediction (and honestly, I hope I'm wrong) ...
> 
> The people at the TiVo booth will say that the new device is "on track" and there will be very little else there. Sadly that would represent no change from last year.


I'm guessing you may very well be correct....but have no hesitation to probe a bit further....

*<Man Tossed from CES for Asking too many Questions - film at 11>*


----------



## Richierich

Syzygy said:


> What?! Is Jeebus expected to appear at CES?


Yes, I will be there bit INCOGNITO!!! :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...The people at the TiVo booth will say that the new device is "on track" ...


Are you sure about that?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Of course not. It's a prediction. Predictions are not statements of fact.


----------



## Sixto

1 year ago, was expecting a TiVo big splash at CES ... zippo.

this year, thought maybe TiVo would finally have a big splash at CES ... nothing so far.

interesting.

IMHO, thinking DirecTV would prefer for TiVo to not announce/show anything until DirecTV is ready to announce any non-TiVo future offering.

But then they did allow UEI to make an announcement today, so we'll see ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> IMHO, thinking DirecTV would prefer for TiVo to not announce/show anything until DirecTV is ready to announce any non-TiVo future offering.
> 
> But then they did allow UEI to make an announcement today, so we'll see ...


Makes me anxious to see the H24/HR24...

~Alan


----------



## Lee L

Stuart Sweet said:


> Of course not. It's a prediction. Predictions are not statements of fact.


Stuart, is it possible to just close this thread if and when TiVo ever does make an announcement and open another one with a title indicating such? THat way we will not have to keep wading through endless speculation to get real info, if it ever does happen.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If there is a real announcement, it will be in its own thread and this one will be closed. This one's just to keep the excitement up


----------



## Richierich

According to the Directv/TiVo Contract TiVo can not release the Directivo DVR until Directv releases their DVR which we think will be the HR24-750 or whatever.

So I expect to see the HR24 probably around March 2010 and then shortly thereafter around July 2010 we will probably see the New Directivo DVR.

That's my Prediction. Take it with a little grain of salt. :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> According to the Directv/TiVo Contract TiVo can not release the Directivo DVR until Directv releases their DVR which we think will be the HR24-750 or whatever.
> 
> So I expect to see the HR24 probably around March 2010 and then shortly thereafter around July 2010 we will probably see the New Directivo DVR.
> 
> That's my Prediction. Take it with a little grain of salt. :lol:


Sorry I have been so fixated on the new DirecTiVo but did not realize its time line will be a few months after the HR24.

So what did DirecTV say about their HR24? I must have missed it when they announced the HR24 will be rolled out in March. What are the differences between the HR24 and my current HR21? More ways to find out what my viewing habit is? If so it wouldn't be a pretty scene I can tell you that, it will really screw up the advertisers' plans


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The HR24 has not been announced, but the model number has shown up in other press releases. There's been no official word about that device.


----------



## ziggy29

Anyone here know how the standalone TiVos (current series) pull in OTA channel guide information and information about which channels to display? If a new DirecTiVo would allow a real OTA channel scan and not the lousy hack job that the HR20 and AM21 use for OTA, I'd definitely be an early adopter.


----------



## Alan Gordon

ziggy29 said:


> Anyone here know how the standalone TiVos (current series) pull in OTA channel guide information and information about which channels to display? If a new DirecTiVo would allow a real OTA channel scan and not the lousy hack job that the HR20 and AM21 use for OTA, I'd definitely be an early adopter.


The Stand-Alone TiVos pull in guide information via phone line or ethernet. I'm sure the DirecTiVo will work the same way every DirecTV receiver works (from the satellite).

However, yes, the stand-alones offer OTA channel scanning (without program information) just like the HR10-250 did... though for me it's rarely needed as unlike the HR10-250, I can get guide data for channels from MULTIPLE DMAs and not just the two that you can get with the HR10-250/HR2xs.

~Alan


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> The HR24 has not been announced, but the model number has shown up in other press releases. There's been no official word about that device.


Any guess when it might be out?


----------



## Richierich

I just gave you my Guess based on alot of discussion here in this forum but no one knows for sure and if they do they can not discuss it until it is Official.

I am guessing around March 2010.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Any guess when it might be out?


All the financial reports listed and/or public information points to some time in 2010, but no specific month.


----------



## Beerstalker

With the way UEI's announcement talks about a "live demo" I wonder if they will have an H24/HR24 at their booth? (Although it may be hidden from view if they do)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Beerstalker said:


> With the way UEI's announcement talks about a "live demo" I wonder if they will have an H24/HR24 at their booth? (Although it may be hidden from view if they do)


They may not require one to do a "demo"....many demos are done with all sorts of smoke and mirrors. 

But if I get the chance, I may take a peak in their booth this weekend....


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> Any guess when it might be out?


I don't think anyone really knows .. That being said .. Let's get back to the TiVo .. Thanks.


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think anyone really knows .. That being said .. Let's get back to the TiVo .. Thanks.


I figured since richierich projected the new TiVo to be four months after the HR24... Oh well.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I figured since richierich projected the new TiVo to be four months after the HR24... Oh well.


Like Doug said...no one really *knows*.....other than a new Tivobox would be 2nd in line for release.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> I figured since richierich projected the new TiVo to be four months after the HR24... Oh well.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Like Doug said...no one really *knows*.....other than a new Tivobox would be 2nd in line for release.


richierich is an asset to this site but as far as I know has no more insight into future receivers than anyone else here.

That being said, let's get back to topic please.


----------



## cartrivision

richierich said:


> According to the Directv/TiVo Contract TiVo can not release the Directivo DVR until Directv releases their [new] DVR...


Where was that little tidbit publicly disclosed?


----------



## Richierich

It was disclosed here in this forum a couple of weeks ago and I will find it and disclose it to you as I found that to be quite interesting but what I would expect from Directv. 

I believe it was in a Financial Statement Filing to the FCC regarding Directv/TiVo Contractual Obligations.

If I were Directv's Management I wouldn't want a DIRECTIVO DVR coming out right before my DVR is released or it would kill the sales of my OWN DVR.

Basic Sales Strategy.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> It was disclosed here in this forum a couple of weeks ago ...


So someone does know something. Sorry I thought you knew, I guess it was someone else.


----------



## sbl

From what I read elsewhere, TiVo does not even have a booth on the CES show floor. They have a press room.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

If it's like last year it's not really a press room, it's a meeting room where they can show their wares. DIRECTV did a similar thing two years ago, although DIRECTV's was easier to find.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> If it's like last year it's not really a press room, it's a meeting room where they can show their wares. DIRECTV did a similar thing two years ago, although DIRECTV's was easier to find.


I recall those photos.... 

Yes, the Tivo folks actually have 3 rooms there, and its really a "show your wares" area away from the main, large exhibit hall area....I'll be heading there Saturday for a looksie...


----------



## jautor

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I recall those photos....
> 
> Yes, the Tivo folks actually have 3 rooms there, and its really a "show your wares" area away from the main, large exhibit hall area....I'll be heading there Saturday for a looksie...


Don't bother. It was my first stop this morning, but unlike every past CES, the TiVo rooms are "appointment-only private meetings". Zero for us to see, although they will give you a TiVo plush if you need another one...

Jeff


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jautor said:


> Don't bother. It was my first stop this morning, but unlike every past CES, the TiVo rooms are "appointment-only private meetings". Zero for us to see, although they will give you a TiVo plush if you need another one...
> 
> Jeff


No bother....thanks for the heads up...

However....sometimes its not what you know but who you know....we'll see what happens.


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No bother....thanks for the heads up...
> 
> However....sometimes its not what you know but who you know....we'll see what happens.


I've got my fingers crossed for you...


----------



## Doug Brott

jautor said:


> Don't bother. It was my first stop this morning, but unlike every past CES, the TiVo rooms are "appointment-only private meetings". Zero for us to see, although they will give you a TiVo plush if you need another one...
> 
> Jeff


This is not a good sign ..


----------



## Draconis

jautor said:


> Don't bother. It was my first stop this morning, but unlike every past CES, the TiVo rooms are "appointment-only private meetings". Zero for us to see, although they will give you a TiVo plush if you need another one...
> 
> Jeff


Found that out the hard way, but the wife likes the TiVo plushie.


----------



## Doug Brott

Draconis said:


> Found that out the hard way, but the wife likes the TiVo plushie.


Thanks for dropping by .. Would they let you sign up for an appointment later or was it invitation only?


----------



## Draconis

Doug Brott said:


> Thanks for dropping by .. Would they let you sign up for an appointment later or was it invitation only?


Invitation only, the only thing they would do for me was put me on a email list in case some info on it was released.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I don't give up so easily, and also made the advanced "list"...so we'll see what happens.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:



> I don't give up so easily, and also made the advanced "list"...so we'll see what happens.


Looking forward to some info on this .. the lack of anything at all at this point is a very good indication that we are at least 6 months out if not longer.

As an example, DISH announced the ViP 922 at last years CES and is just now getting into what may be a roll out phase. (one year later)

If we don't see anything this CES I might join Stuart in his prediction of Q1/2011 ..


----------



## hdtvfan0001

If we get ANY news....this will be the place that gets it first!


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Looking forward to some info on this .. the lack of anything at all at this point is a very good indication that we are at least 6 months out if not longer.
> 
> As an example, DISH announced the ViP 922 at last years CES and is just now getting into what may be a roll out phase. (one year later)
> 
> If we don't see anything this CES I might join Stuart in his prediction of Q1/2011 ..


I thought the new DirecTiVo was announced before the last years' CES.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I thought the new DirecTiVo was announced before the last years' CES.


Originally announced in a simple form June 2008..."reintroduced" January 2009 with more details.


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> You post this claim repeatedly, in spite of the fact that refreshing usually happens at odd times like 3:08pm, and (in the case of the Sort Programs by Category option) when nothing is recording. Wake up and smell the coffee!


The folks that schedule shows no longer stick to the half-hour marks for start and end times. They manipulate the schedules specifically to lock-in audience. This often leaves people in a situation where shows start a few minutes before or after the half-hour, despite their regular time slot. This is the same reason we have automatic padding built into the software now. It accommodates for the fact that the networks cheat the begin and end times of the shows.

You hate the HR2x. We got that in your first dozen posts. But that doesn't change the fact that the behavior of these refreshes is easily explained. I hate the design too, but it is fairly obvious that it is not random.

I want the TiVo to be a great product. It will either be so good that I switch to it or it will be so good that it will exert market pressure on the HR2x line to fix the shortcomings it presents. Either way, the customers win. But some issues are a distinct trade-off. This may be one where the choice is between good user experience and up-to-date information. Fixing problems like this elegantly takes time. I'm hoping the TiVo developers can use existing code to move past some of these hurdles and not delay their release.


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> I thought the new DirecTiVo was announced before the last years' CES.


9/2/2008 signed. 9/3/2008 announced.


----------



## Richierich

So maybe a Q3 2010 is a little more realistic or maybe even Q4 2010.

Hopefully, we can find someone to answer that question at least.


----------



## David Ortiz

jautor said:


> Don't bother. It was my first stop this morning, but unlike every past CES, the TiVo rooms are "appointment-only private meetings". Zero for us to see, although they will give you a TiVo plush if you need another one...
> 
> Jeff


<-- proud owner of new (to me) TiVo plush doll.


----------



## bondheli

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I don't give up so easily, and also made the advanced "list"...so we'll see what happens.


How'd you do that, are you press? :contract:


----------



## Sixto

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If we get ANY news....this will be the place that gets it first!


I wish you, the smidster, and richie great luck.

It has been 493 days since the announcement and we have seen ZERO credible information of any kind.

Nothing. Nada. Not even the slightest bit of information in 493 days.

Any info you post would be the first on the internet anywhere. 

No pressure on ya!


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I thought the new DirecTiVo was announced before the last years' CES.


Let me clear the air a little .. I touched a ViP 922 @ CES 2009 .. there wasn't even a picture or a fuzzy description of the HD DIRECTV TiVo at the show last year.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> ... there wasn't even a picture or a fuzzy description of the HD DIRECTV TiVo at the show last year.


No different 365 days later.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Originally announced in a simple form June 2008..."reintroduced" January 2009 with more details.


September 3, 2008 I think was the date with 2nd Half of 2009 release .. Poof! that's definitely gone now. The current 15 months from announcement to product is only going to turn into 21-28 months it looks like. 2 years after the announcement (on paper)?


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> No different 365 days later.


Nope .. so does this mean another year of nothing? I'm thinking maybe. I'll wait and see what the weekend warriors come back with.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> Nope .. so does this mean another year of nothing? I'm thinking maybe. I'll wait and see what the weekend warriors come back with.


They spent $6M+ on development in 2009 (thru first 9 months) so hopefully they're working on something. 

I'll give them credit, they sure are good at keeping a secret.

Maybe Boygenius should get involved to get some info!


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Are they actively keeping a secret or is it simply not important enough for them to put the PR people on it?


----------



## Mike Greer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Are they actively keeping a secret or is it simply not important enough for them to put the PR people on it?


Pretty disappointing...

You'd think being able to tap into DirecTV's giant customer base would be a big deal for them.

I'm not sure how the major stock holders and employees of Tivo can get any sleep at night. If the Dish Network legal thing goes Tivo's way we're talking paradise and huge bucks for Tivo... If it goes Dish Network's way everything goes downhill from the there! I would be trying to get as many of DirecTV's customers using Tivo boxes ASAP!


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> I'll give them credit, they sure are good at keeping a secret.


I'm beginning to think that there is a very simple reason for this to be true.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I'm beginning to think that there is a very simple reason for this to be true.


Agreed.

A major investment and major deployment opportunity - lots at stake.

Mums the word is likely the required practice.

But that said....I'll still see what we can see and hear what I can hear starting tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> A major investment and major deployment opportunity - lots at stake.
> 
> Mums the word is likely the required practice.
> 
> But that said....I'll still see what we can see and hear what I can hear starting tomorrow afternoon.


I could be wrong but I don't think that is what Doug meant!


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike Greer said:


> I could be wrong but I don't think that is what Doug meant!


your not wrong .. It's pretty easy to keep something quiet when it doesn't exist.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Anybody think the actual software if completely written, and they're just waiting for the new hardware?


----------



## LameLefty

kevinturcotte said:


> Anybody think the actual software if completely written, and they're just waiting for the new hardware?


I doubt it. A real-time system like a DVR is generally tied in pretty tightly to the hardware it runs on. I'm sure they have dev boxes and such but they won't be able to tune it into their typically-glossy overall experience without production hardware, or boxes very close to it.


----------



## Mike Greer

Doug Brott said:


> your not wrong .. It's pretty easy to keep something quiet when it doesn't exist.


:lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> your not wrong .. It's pretty easy to keep something quiet when it doesn't exist.


Then somebody better figure out where $6 Milllion + went the past year...


----------



## LameLefty

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then somebody better figure out where $6 Milllion + went the past year...


That's an awful lot of plushies . . .


----------



## Syzygy

Someone said here recently that D* will need a few months to sell their new box (which will be capable of running either their own firmware or the TiVo system) without any competition or interference from TiVo -- so they may be insisting that there be absolutely no TiVo rumors or vaporware that might hurt their sales.

Unfortunately, that would put TiVo at the mercy of D*'s development group.


----------



## Mike Greer

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then somebody better figure out where $6 Milllion + went the past year...


If they really spent $6 million + on the new DirecTivo last year - and they don't/won't give any specifics about anything (features/dates etc) then the future looks dark for Tivo.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Someone said here recently that D* will need a few months to sell their new box (which will be capable of running either their own firmware or the TiVo system) without any competition or interference from TiVo -- so they may be insisting that there be absolutely no TiVo rumors or vaporware that might hurt their sales.
> 
> Unfortunately, that would put TiVo at the mercy of D*'s development group.


Seriously!? Let's just squash this rumor right now .. It's not true.

As far as I know, TiVo has what they need to move forward .. If things are stalled it's not because DIRECTV called up TiVo and asked them to be hush, hush so that DIRECTV can sell a few receivers .. Remember, DIRECTV will make money regardless of whether it's an HR2x or a TiVo branded receiver. So far the new TiVo is still vaporware .. has anyone seen one yet? Hopefully the guys going to CES will see something so that they can at least confirm that it's not vaporware.


----------



## smiddy

kevinturcotte said:


> Anybody think the actual software if completely written, and they're just waiting for the new hardware?





LameLefty said:


> I doubt it. A real-time system like a DVR is generally tied in pretty tightly to the hardware it runs on. I'm sure they have dev boxes and such but they won't be able to tune it into their typically-glossy overall experience without production hardware, or boxes very close to it.


Standard development practice is to run hardware and software in parallel as much as possible, so a surrogate platform for code development would ensue and then they would be integrated together once each is done. That is where the hiccups happen, thus causing delays.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> If they really spent $6 million + on the new DirecTivo last year - and they don't/won't give any specifics about anything (features/dates etc) then the future looks dark for Tivo.


Keeping proprietary information confidential is not new or unique by any means. It's just that some companies are better at it than others.

I wouldn't make any opinion one way or another, or rush to judgement, based on what we DON'T know, as opposed to what we do know...which is limited.


----------



## smiddy

Ok, dumb bunny question here, slap me if you wanna; what the heck is a plushie and do I want one? :shygrin:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Ok, dumb bunny question here, slap me if you wanna; what the heck is a plushie and do I want one? :shygrin:


We'll get one...a stuffed pillow-like Tivo-logo thingy.


----------



## kevinturcotte

What I'm thinking is, Tivo has a working HR24 (Or whatever the Tivo hardware will run on), and the Tivo software itself is ready for release. However, the Directv software (For those who don't wish to have Tivo) isn't ready yet, and is still in testing.


----------



## kevinturcotte

smiddy said:


> Ok, dumb bunny question here, slap me if you wanna; what the heck is a plushie and do I want one? :shygrin:


http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-Doll-Plush-Ornament/dp/B001NTM0W8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1262980550&sr=8-3 Similar to this, only a little larger.


----------



## Mike Greer

I think Dick Cheney may be in on this... I just hope he left his gun in the car this time.

Seriously - If the new DirecTivo was going to happen any time soon wouldn't it be big news at CES? 

Tivo is not a company the size of Comcast, DirecTV or Dish Network - getting access to DirecTV's subscribers has to be a huge deal. If they haven't been able to show anything for this long something's got to be up.


----------



## LameLefty

kevinturcotte said:


> What I'm thinking is, Tivo has a working HR24 (Or whatever the Tivo hardware will run on), and the Tivo software itself is ready for release. However, the Directv software (For those who don't wish to have Tivo) isn't ready yet, and is still in testing.


I doubt that scenario very, very much.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Mike Greer said:


> Seriously - If the new DirecTivo was going to happen any time soon wouldn't it be big news at CES?


Likely only if they choose it to be so, and DirecTV concurs - they are partners on this.


----------



## jacmyoung

How come none of you guys in Vegas bet on this DVR not announced? You could have made some money. I am sure you could have placed a bet on this one in Vegas.

Too bad you may not be able to bring back any news, but at least we can all get free beer.


----------



## Syzygy

I'll bet  that no betting line has been established on whether or not the new DVR will be announced. That would be because, outside of DBSTalkers and AVS folks, no one is even thinking about it.


----------



## Mike Greer

Syzygy said:


> I'll bet  that no betting line has been established on whether or not the new DVR will be announced. That would be because, outside of DBSTalkers and AVS folks, no one is even thinking about it.


That seems to include Tivo also!:lol:


----------



## Sixto

My speculation ... based on everything read since 9/2008.

The TiVo firmware will only run on some new unannounced hardware.

TiVo spent $6.2M on development during the first 9 months of their current fiscal year. This appears to be a MAJOR project, and they are spending considerable dollars. Of which DirecTV is paying for all of the development up-front, and being made whole later through reduced payments to TiVo.

The coding takes TIME. While it may be a port of the Series3/TiVo HD firmware, they need to add a ton of stuff. MRV the DirecTV way. SWM. AM21 support. Maybe DirecTV DoD. Interactive applications. Lots of stuff.

1) The coding may be mostly complete, TiVo wanted to announce at CES, but DirecTV would prefer to not announce at CES.

or

2) The coding may be mostly complete, but TiVo wanted to wait to make a big splash at another time.

or

3) Just not ready yet and it's going to be a while.

I bounce back and forth between #1 and #3.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> How come none of you guys in Vegas bet on this DVR not announced? You could have made some money. I am sure you could have placed a bet on this one in Vegas.
> 
> Too bad you may not be able to bring back any news, but at least we can all get free beer.


Because you *lose* money in Vegas....everybody knows that.... :lol:

...and more important.... What happens in Vegas....


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> The TiVo firmware will only run on some new unannounced hardware.


I have no hard evidence either way, but still, I do not believe the above statement to be true.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Because you *lose* money in Vegas...


Not if you bet against any real news from TiVo. We all sensed that before the CES.



> ...and more important.... What happens in Vegas...


Not with the CES, you want to make sure what happens at the CES is known everywhere, unless as Doug said, if you have nothing to begin with.


----------



## Sixto

Doug Brott said:


> I have no hard evidence either way, but still, I do not believe the above statement to be true.


wow. if they need to go back then it may be even harder with support for both old hardware and anything new in the future, unless anything new is similar to the old.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Not if you bet against any real news from TiVo. We all sensed that before the CES.
> 
> Not with the CES, you want to make sure what happens at the CES is known everywhere, unless as Doug said, if you have nothing to begin with.


Not with Tivo.... 

But your roving reporters will be tackling people in the aisles, duct taping them as required, and finding out what we can.....:eek2::eek2::lol:


----------



## Lee L

Doug Brott said:


> I have no hard evidence either way, but still, I do not believe the above statement to be true.


So you are thinking that the existing boxes will run the TiVo SW? Or that the TiVo box is a totally different animal?

It just seems so much more logical to me that they are waiting on a new piece of DirecTV hardware that can run DirecTVs SW as well as TiVo. Especially given the press releases that mention the term "new box" but also worded like it was just software.


----------



## Syzygy

Sixto said:


> My speculation ... The TiVo firmware will only run on some new unannounced hardware...





Doug Brott said:


> I have no hard evidence either way, but still, I do not believe the above statement to be true.


I'm with Sixto. Maybe Doug thinks it's easy to write software that works well on all the flavors of HR2x boxes that are out there now, but I see much evidence that D* has failed to do it. (For example, note how some models were sluggish with one release, and then other models were sluggish with the next release.) I'd hate to see TiVo engineers forced to try it.

Besides, there's TiVo's requirement that their software be run only on TiVo-badged boxes.

I think there'll be a new box, and only that box will be able to run TiVo software. It'll run D* firmware as well -- in which case the box will be different only because it won't have the little TiVo guy on its front escutcheon.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> I'd hate to see TiVo engineers forced to try it.


Well, since you seem to think Tivo's engineers are so much more competent than DirecTV's, maybe they'd do a better job?


----------



## Syzygy

Jeremy W said:


> Well, since you seem to think Tivo's engineers are so much more competent than DirecTV's, maybe they'd do a better job?


Yeah, I actually thought of that! 

But why should they have to try? It's a fool's errand, and it would have a very good chance of failure.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> But why should they have to try? It's a fool's errand, and it would have a very good chance of failure.


They did it in the past. DirecTV's various Tivo receivers were all made by different companies with slightly different designs, just like the HR2x. But I bet you forgot about that in your never-ending quest to bash the HR2x.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tivo's doing the firmware, DirecTV is providing the hardware plaform (a "next generation" one according to the original press release).

So its really quite simple - they are partners, they work together and have a joint project plan to deliver this thingy in 2010. That much has been know for over a year.

Beyond that....it's all speculation.


----------



## Syzygy

Jeremy W said:


> They did it in the past. DirecTV's various Tivo receivers were all made by different companies with slightly different designs, just like the HR2x. But I bet you forgot about that in your never-ending quest to bash the HR2x.


I'll admit it; that fact never entered my mind.

So, it seems you're stipulating that the TiVo engineers that accomplished that feat are in fact superior to present-day D* engineers, who cannot accomplish a similar feat.

Or maybe those old SD DVRs "with slightly different designs" weren't very different from each other after all. And maybe the HR2x's have been allowed to be *too* different from each other.

Or, maybe HD DVRs (with barely capable hardware) are much harder to program for speed and responsiveness than the SD DVRs were.

No matter which tack you take, the conclusion should be: Don't try to write software that covers all the (HD) bases!


----------



## Doug Brott

Lee L said:


> So you are thinking that the existing boxes will run the TiVo SW? Or that the TiVo box is a totally different animal?
> 
> It just seems so much more logical to me that they are waiting on a new piece of DirecTV hardware that can run DirecTVs SW as well as TiVo. Especially given the press releases that mention the term "new box" but also worded like it was just software.


I don't believe I've ever suggested a different animal ...


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> I'm with Sixto. Maybe Doug thinks it's easy to write software that works well on all the flavors of HR2x boxes that are out there now, but I see much evidence that D* has failed to do it. (For example, note how some models were sluggish with one release, and then other models were sluggish with the next release.) I'd hate to see TiVo engineers forced to try it.


I definitely didn't say anything about running on more than one box type. But still I have no hard evidence, only tea leaves.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Tivo's doing the firmware, DirecTV is providing the hardware plaform (a "next generation" one according to the original press release).
> 
> So its really quite simple - they are partners, they work together and have a joint project plan to deliver this thingy in 2010. That much has been know for over a year.
> 
> Beyond that....it's all speculation.


Well, I don't know that they said "next generation" .. Here's the quote:

DIRECTV.com


> Under the terms of the non-exclusive arrangement, DIRECTV and TiVo will work together to develop a version of the TiVo(R) service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform. The product will support the latest TiVo and DIRECTV features and services, including TiVo's Universal Swivel Search and TiVo KidZone. TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.


If you want to read "new HD DVR" as "next generation," then feel free .. I read it as a "TiVo Branded HD DVR" and nothing more. I read "DIRECTV's broadband-enable HD DVR platform" as an existing piece of hardware (some HR2x box with TiVo software). Will it be a yet-to-be-released model? Maybe, but with development likely well under way over the past 6-8 months wouldn't we have seen this elusive new hardware by now from DIRECTV if it were available in some form (even prototype) 8 months ago? Seems suspect to me to think that TiVo would develop something for hardware they don't have access to. The older boxes (including HR23-700) are readily available pretty much since the initial announcement (perhaps HR23 was slightly later).

I just think that TiVo will have chosen one (perhap more, but probably just one) of the models HR21 or HR23 and will code to that platform. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily right because I can't get anyone to give me cold hard facts :lol: .. But, this is my thought process. I would be surprised if TiVo were available on a yet to be released hardware, but I suppose it could happen.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> So, it seems you're stipulating that the TiVo engineers that accomplished that feat are in fact superior to present-day D* engineers, who cannot accomplish a similar feat.


Tivo's platform was more mature, even back then. As the HR2x is maturing, the difference in performance between the models is getting smaller.


Syzygy said:


> Or maybe those old SD DVRs "with slightly different designs" weren't very different from each other after all. And maybe the HR2x's have been allowed to be *too* different from each other.


They were just as different as all of the the HR2x models are.


Syzygy said:


> Or, maybe HD DVRs (with barely capable hardware) are much harder to program for speed and responsiveness than the SD DVRs were.


I am getting so sick of repeating this: if the HR2x hardware is barely capable, then the Tivo Series 3 and Tivo HD hardware is just as barely capable, since it's exactly the same. If you're going to say that DirecTV is using inferior hardware, then you have to say the same thing about Tivo.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I just think that TiVo will have chosen one (perhap more, but probably just one) of the models HR21 or HR23 and will code to that platform. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily right because I can't get anyone to give me cold hard facts :lol: .. But, this is my thought process. I would be surprised if TiVo were available on a yet to be released hardware, but I suppose it could happen.


Of course...they also originally said *2009* in that same document....:lol:


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Given the timing of the statement, it would have been perfectly reasonable to presume the HR23 was the "next generation HD DVR."


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> ... I read "DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform" as an existing piece of hardware (some HR2x box with TiVo software)...


Point of order.

What is a "platform"? Maybe it's the _gestalt_ of all DirecTV receivers and DVRs, plus the sats and their uplinks, and so on...

Or maybe it's just the _idea_ of DVRs and receivers being linked together via broadband in your home.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Point of order.
> 
> What is a "platform"? Maybe it's the _gestalt_ of all DirecTV receivers and DVRs, plus the sats and their uplinks, and so on...
> 
> Or maybe it's just the _idea_ of DVRs and receivers being linked together via broadband in your home.


You're welcome to parse that idea all you want .. I think we've been there, done that a few times already ..

I'll lay it out simple .. I think (don't know for sure and not confirmed) that the TiVo software will be on either an HR21 or HR23 hardware device .. I will be surprised if it's not.

Of course the cosmetics will be different since it will be branded TiVo (per documents we have seen).


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> I'll admit it; that fact never entered my mind.
> 
> So, it seems you're stipulating that the TiVo engineers that accomplished that feat are in fact superior to present-day D* engineers, who cannot accomplish a similar feat.
> 
> Or maybe those old SD DVRs "with slightly different designs" weren't very different from each other after all. And maybe the HR2x's have been allowed to be *too* different from each other.
> 
> Or, maybe HD DVRs (with barely capable hardware) are much harder to program for speed and responsiveness than the SD DVRs were.
> 
> No matter which tack you take, the conclusion should be: Don't try to write software that covers all the (HD) bases!


You forgot the possibility that some of the models were manufactured poorly or had inferior components (up to spec on paper but not as reliable in the field).

Including a less reliable hard drive, for example, could account for quite a number of issues. None of those issue can ever be addressed adequately in software.


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> I'll lay it out simple .. I think (don't know for sure and not confirmed) that the TiVo software will be on either an HR21 or HR23 hardware device .. I will be surprised if it's not.


I'll be very surprised if the TiVo software runs on an HR21. That would knock my socks off, but not in a good way.


----------



## gregjones

Actually, the $6 million was spent coding a calendar app for the new TiVo software so they could tell how far behind schedule they were.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> I'll be very surprised if the TiVo software runs on an HR21. That would knock my socks off, but not in a good way.


The HR21 and the Tivo HD are the same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same. Same.

There would be nothing surprising about it at all.


----------



## Syzygy

Good use of cut-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste, Jeremy!


----------



## gregjones

In all seriousness, though, it takes more time to develop an integrated box than a standalone. TiVo has production code that has to meet nobody's expectations but their own. Another party, be it Comcast or DirecTV, adds complexity. Add to that the specific concerns that DirecTV's contracted contract providers have regarding licensed content and it may take a while for all parties to be happy.

The other significant culprit in these kinds of projects is feature creep. Instead of just porting the Series 3 code (now somewhat old) over, the temptation is there to make everything a little bit better. 

DirecTV has a history sometimes of releasing software too soon (Early HR2x). TiVo has a history of releasing software well behind schedule. DirecTV and TiVo together have a history of releasing software VERY much behind schedule.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> Good use of cut-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste-and-paste, Jeremy!


Actually, I typed out every word in that post. No lazy shortcuts for me! :lol:


----------



## ATARI

I still stand by my prediction of last summer:

HR24 hardware, running TiVo or D* firmware, but not interchangeable.

D* will release their's first, followed in a couple months with the TiVo branded one.


----------



## dennisj00

richierich said:


> So maybe a Q3 2010 is a little more realistic or maybe even Q4 2010.
> 
> Hopefully, we can find someone to answer that question at least.


Rich,

I should have taken the bet with you when you guaranteed you'd have one by July 4.

I remember telling you that you didn't specify which year!!!

Enjoy the show!

d


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> Given the timing of the statement, it would have been perfectly reasonable to presume the HR23 was the "next generation HD DVR."


Also very true.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Tivo's doing the firmware, DirecTV is providing the hardware plaform (a "next generation" one according to the original press release).
> 
> So its really quite simple - they are partners, they work together and have a joint project plan to deliver this thingy in 2010. That much has been know for over a year.


I thought it was to deliver this thing in the "second half of 2009". It then was changed to "spring 2010"...I don't think it has been known for over a year the plan was changed to "2010", "2010" in fact was the most recent plan.



> Beyond that....it's all speculation.


I'd simply say...it's all speculation.


----------



## Sixto

Oh boy ... to speculate that TiVo is going to make a splash and announce the "new" TiVo on hardware from Q4-2008 ... geez, I don't know ...

Unless ...

You can download the new firmware to any HR2x in the country.

But all debate up to now has considered that option very unlikely.

Again, if they're going to be shipping "new" TiVo on new-build HR23's (first introduced in Q4-2008) ... oh boy ... 

I'll stick with the future box speculation.


----------



## Albie

smiddy said:


> Ok, dumb bunny question here, slap me if you wanna; what the heck is a plushie and do I want one? :shygrin:


Plushies are the non-beads, non-plastic, non-light up like crap, I throw off the float every Feb or early March to thousands of screaming, yelling, out of their minds adults and children alike (even though the rest of the year they are mostly quite normal otherwise). 

And some of those plushies might even be dumb bunnies.


----------



## Albie

Tivo seems to be the anticipators dream and the impatients nightmare. 

For the Standalones - Still waiting on the Tivo Premier

For the Cable TV crowd - Comcast is still waiting to release it beyond the New England test area. Cox Cable still waiting on the first glimpse anywhere.

Directv - Still waiting on first glimpse.

My question at this point would be - Where in the priority queue is the Directivo project?


----------



## jaywdetroit

Albie said:


> ...
> 
> My question at this point would be - Where in the priority queue is the Directivo project?


VAPORWARE

Seriously, by the time we actually see this product, if we ever do, it's going to be obsolete.

I admit to being clueless to the answer, But is it really that difficult to port this software to a new box?? What's the delay, if not a 'business' decision?


----------



## Alan Gordon

Albie said:


> Tivo seems to be the anticipators dream and the impatients nightmare.





Albie said:


> For the Standalones - Still waiting on the Tivo Premier


It's expected that the TiVo Premiere is the Best Buy unit (expected this Spring)... in which case it has been known about for a couple/few months, but the name TiVo Premiere only popped up a little over a week ago. It's possible you're thinking of the TiVo Series 4... which does not have an expected timeline, and the only thing that is known about it to my knowledge is that it will support tru2way.



Albie said:


> For the Cable TV crowd - Comcast is still waiting to release it beyond the New England test area. Cox Cable still waiting on the first glimpse anywhere.


Unless I'm unaware of something, I'm not sure how TiVo can be blamed for Comcast not offering it in more of their area.

As for Cox, TiVo is having to make the software support some STBs which quite frankly I'm amazed even has the power to run the TiVo software.



Albie said:


> Directv - Still waiting on first glimpse.


I've heard rumors that it's in testing. Would be interesting to know if that's true.



Albie said:


> My question at this point would be - Where in the priority queue is the Directivo project?


Since the ComcasTiVo is already released (software updates aside), I suspect the DirecTiVo is probably behind the TiVo Premiere, but ahead of Cox and the TiVo Series 4.

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> if they're going to be shipping "new" TiVo on new-build HR23's (first introduced in Q4-2008) ... oh boy ...


Nobody aside from us nerds are going to know that it's 2008 hardware. I don't see what the problem would be. The outside will look different, that's all that 99.9999% of subscribers will ever see or care about in the slightest bit.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Nobody aside from us nerds are going to know that it's 2008 hardware. I don't see what the problem would be. The outside will look different, that's all that 99.9999% of subscribers will ever see or care about in the slightest bit.


The more and more I think about it, you are absolutely correct.

It just seems sad ... 2010 firmware deserves 2010 hardware! 

But since the HR23 reference spec is very similiar to the TiVo HD, maybe it's a good first port.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> It just seems sad ... 2010 firmware deserves 2010 hardware!


The way Tivo works, although the firmware will have been built in 2010, it'll still be 1999 firmware.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jaywdetroit said:


> I admit to being clueless to the answer, But is it really that difficult to port this software to a new box?? What's the delay, if not a 'business' decision?


I would think one of the main issues is making the software compatible with DirecTV's interactive features and DirecTV's version (sigh!) of MRV.

There also the question as to how many changes does DirecTV want. The ComcasTiVo has multiple differences compared to the stand-alones.... which I can only assume came at the request of Comcast.



Jeremy W said:


> The way Tivo works, although the firmware will have been built in 2010, it'll still be 1999 firmware.


Surely TiVo is more than 9 years AHEAD of DirecTV's units...  

NOTE: Though I prefer the TiVo interface over DirecTV's GUI, I do wish to stress that I'm not putting down the people at DirecTV who have improved the HR2x considerably since I leased my first, but rather that like beauty, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Given the timing of the statement, it would have been perfectly reasonable to presume the HR23 was the "next generation HD DVR."


Very possible!

The TiVo announcement (linked to by Doug Brott) was dated September 3rd, 2008. The First Look Document for the HR23-700 was posted on November 2nd, 2008.

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

Well, I'm off to Vegas to see if I can find out anything about this new DIRECTIVO box. See y'all later. Pictures will be forthcoming!!!


----------



## jaywdetroit

no Gnewwws.... is bad Gnewwwws...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Given the timing of the statement, it would have been perfectly reasonable to presume the HR23 was the "next generation HD DVR."


Would be interesting to know if there will be a TiVo option on the Server Box though...

~Alan


----------



## Ken_F

Alan Gordon said:


> Would be interesting to know if there will be a TiVo option on the Server Box though...


I can't imagine that TiVo would be happy if DirecTV furnished them a dual-tuner HR24 design based on the older BCM7335/BCM7400/BCM7405, and then a few months later, released a 4-6 tuner "multi-room server" design with their own software running on one of Broadcom's next-generation 1080p60-capable SoCs.

TiVo would face resource constraints on the older hardware that DirecTV did not on the newer "server" DVR. Many new customers would simply opt for the 4-6 tuner box with RVU that could serve low-cost (and potentially feeless), tuner-less boxes throughout the home. Others would opt for the newer box simply because it had full 1080p60 output, a feature not possible on older hardware. In that situation, I don't see how TiVo could compete.


----------



## bakerfall

Ken_F said:


> I can't imagine that TiVo would be happy if DirecTV furnished them a dual-tuner HR24 design based on the older BCM7335/BCM7400/BCM7405, and then a few months later, released a 4-6 tuner "multi-room server" design with their own software running on one of Broadcom's next-generation 1080p60-capable SoCs.
> 
> TiVo would face resource constraints on the older hardware that DirecTV did not on the newer "server" DVR. Many new customers would simply opt for the 4-6 tuner box with RVU that could serve low-cost (and potentially feeless), tuner-less boxes throughout the home. Others would opt for the newer box simply because it had full 1080p60 output, a feature not possible on older hardware. In that situation, I don't see how TiVo could compete.


Tivo will compete because they are Tivo. A whole home DVR solution probably won't impact them much, especially since the new DirecTivos will likely have MRV as well.

Bottom line is that the tivo software is going to cost some premium over the standard D* software and the people willing to pay that to get the Tivo OS back are not going to be dissuaded by hardware improvements that may or may not be visible to them.

As several people have stated, the specs between the HR20 and the Tivo HD are the same, so I'm fairly confident Tivo can produce a very good product on the current platform.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I have some good news and bad news from those of us who met yesterday onsite here at the CES (still here today).

The good news - we did indeed (without invitation) get into the multiple rooms held by TIVO at CES. We got our t-shirts, plushies, pens, and plenty of other Tivo-ish stuff.

We also spent about 20 minutes talking with several folks in that area, who continued to state that the new DirecTV Tivobox was still "being released in 2010".

Now the bad news - they had nothing to show, nothing on display (other than general Tivo marketing materials, and promo items. 

Nothing - no hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.

But we got in to talk to them....but frankly....learned very little new, except more confirmation of a "2010" date and continued speculation...


----------



## ATARI

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have some good news and bad news from those of us who met yesterday onsite here at the CES (still here today).
> 
> The good news - we did indeed (without invitation) get into the multiple rooms held by TIVO at CES. We got our t-shirts, plushies, pens, and plenty of other Tivo-ish stuff.
> 
> We also spent about 20 minutes talking with several folks in that area, who continued to state that the new DirecTV Tivobox was still "being released in 2010".
> 
> Now the bad news - they had nothing to show, nothing on display (other than general Tivo marketing materials, and promo items.
> 
> Nothing - no hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.
> 
> But we got in to talk to them....but frankly....learned very little new, except more confirmation of a "2010" date and continued speculation...


That's disappointing to hear. But thanks for checking none-the-less.


----------



## damondlt

Well , atleast its coming.


----------



## Syzygy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.


"Things?" If that's exactly the word they used, it begs the question "what things?" (which I'm confident you asked).

In the absence of more detail, I feel free to assume that it's likely to be "DirecTV things" (Hardware? Software?) rather than TiVo's software.


----------



## LameLefty

Syzygy said:


> "Things?" If that's exactly the word they used, it begs the question "what things?" (which I'm confident you asked).
> 
> In the absence of more detail, I feel free to assume that it's likely to be "DirecTV things" (Hardware? Software?) rather than TiVo's software.


Why are you so quick to point the finger anywhere but at TiVo (who, apparently, can do no wrong)?


----------



## Syzygy

And why are you so quick (< 2 minutes) to leap to their defense?


----------



## LameLefty

Syzygy said:


> And why are you so quick (< 2 minutes) to leap to their defense?


Nice strawman.  I posted when I saw your post. If I hadn't seen it for two hours, I'd still ask the question.

Nonetheless, the question remains: why do you immediately blame Directv? How long has it been since TiVo last delivered a successful product? (And by "successful" I mean one that actually returned something on its investment) How much of their income in the last couple of years has come from product design, sales and engineering support rather than in patent litigation, licensing and obtaining money from deeper-pocket corporations?

In the meantime, Directv has launched a billion dollars worth of satellites, fielded millions of H/HR2x boxes, and has a subscriber base that has grown even in the face of a bad economy.

Now again, why exactly do you assume Directv is the party at fault here?


----------



## bdcottle

My guess would be that they are having the same problem with MPEG4 that both E* and D* are having. Audio drop-out recovery.


----------



## Syzygy

Syzygy said:


> "Things?" If that's exactly the word they used, it begs the question "what things?" (which I'm confident you asked).
> 
> In the absence of more detail, I feel free to assume that it's likely to be "DirecTV things" (Hardware? Software?) rather than TiVo's software.





LameLefty said:


> In the meantime, Directv has launched a billion dollars worth of satellites, fielded millions of H/HR2x boxes...
> 
> Now again, why exactly do you assume Directv is the party at fault here?


Citing DirecTV's millions of H[R]2x boxes -- all of which are burdened by rotten firmware -- is unconvincing. If D* had not broken faith with the many who paid around $900 for access to D*'s set of HD channels, the HR2x boxes would've been MPEG-4 TiVo boxes, and their customers would be far more satisfied than they are now, because those boxes would work better and more ergonomically.

My "I feel free to assume..." line was a throwaway, indicating that I'm still bitter about D*'s betrayal (made much worse by D*'s abysmal failure to write software that's even half as competent as what TiVo would've provided).

My main interest is to get an answer to the question "what things?"


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> "Things?" If that's exactly the word they used, it begs the question "what things?" (which I'm confident you asked).
> 
> In the absence of more detail, I feel free to assume that it's likely to be "DirecTV things" (Hardware? Software?) rather than TiVo's software.


I've said it in the past and I will say it again .. This is TiVo's task to make it work or not .. This is not DIRECTV holding up TiVo ..


----------



## Alan Gordon

For the record, I do *NOT* blame DirecTV for the lack of the new DirecTiVo by now. I put that squarely on TiVo's shoulders.

It's possible that changes required by DirecTV might be partially responsible for the hold-up, but still TiVo for taking so long to make it work.

HOWEVER, I do want to comment on your question:



LameLefty said:


> In the meantime, Directv has launched a billion dollars worth of satellites, fielded millions of H/HR2x boxes, and has a subscriber base that has grown even in the face of a bad economy.


DirecTV is a multi-channel video provider. TiVo is a GUI/firmware provider for all intents and purposes.

Yes, DirecTV has launched a billion dollars worth of satellites, but why would TiVo?

Sure, they fielded millions of HR2x (I left out the H2x units), but if you wanted an HD-DVR with DirecTV, that's what you had to get it. I'm not saying that most people would have chosen TiVo, it's probably the other way around, BUT I wanted to bring that up.

As far as the subscriber base goes, yes, TiVo charges too much for their service as stand-alones goes, and then add on all the issues that are not their fault (SDV, OnDemand, etc)...



LameLefty said:


> Nonetheless, the question remains: why do you immediately blame Directv? How long has it been since TiVo last delivered a successful product? (And by "successful" I mean one that actually returned something on its investment) How much of their income in the last couple of years has come from product design, sales and engineering support rather than in patent litigation, licensing and obtaining money from deeper-pocket corporations?


As far as how you mean "successful", once again, I state TiVo charges too much for their service as stand-alones goes, and then add on all the issues that are not their fault (SDV, OnDemand, etc), and it's pretty easy to see why TiVo is not as successful as DirecTV.

However, there are still people out there who consider TiVo to be the best DVR on the market. I'm one of those people. However, the DirecTV HR2x is definately my second favorite DVR I've ever used which speaks a lot for DirecTV (as well as the Cutting Edge team, IMHO), and I've seen TiVo add features which I'm sure was due to the HR2x having it... but there are still issues where DirecTV lags well behind... which may not be an issue for some folks, but can be a PITA for others.

So by your definition of successful, sure, TiVo is no success, but then again, there are several McDonald's in the city of Albany, GA, but Backyard Burger's only location went out of business... yet if you wanted a quality burger, Backyard Burger was the one you went to! 

~Alan


----------



## Ken_F

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing - no hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.


This is consistent with RCN's statement last month that their [new] TiVo rollout was delayed from early January to late February.



bakerfall said:


> As several people have stated, the specs between the HR20 and the Tivo HD are the same, so I'm fairly confident Tivo can produce a very good product on the current platform.


I don't think the current hardware is relevant to this discussion. TiVo is not supporting the current HR2x equipment.

Many months ago, TiVo moved most of its resources from the current hardware and software platform to its next-generation hardware and software platform. The old software platform was built almost entirely in C, as necessary for them to achieve adequate performance on the older hardware. For the past year, they've done much of their work in xml, flash, actionscript, etc.

I expect the next DirecTiVo to share the same menu navigation metaphor, but with a more modern look and different underpinnings. I expect it only on the TiVo Premiere and the next DirecTV DVR platform, both of which should feature comparable hardware like the TivoHD and HR21/HR22/HR23.


----------



## Syzygy

"HR24?" Several people have jumped on the bandwagon to assume that's the name of the next-generation DVR from DirecTV. I hope it's not true. A "next-generation" DVR deserves a name that differentiates it clearly from the older generation. It should not find itself lumped into the catch-all "HR2x" moniker.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not terribly surprising...
> 
> My formal prediction (and honestly, I hope I'm wrong) ...
> 
> The people at the TiVo booth will say that the new device is "on track" and there will be very little else there. Sadly that would represent no change from last year.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> I have some good news and bad news from those of us who met yesterday onsite here at the CES (still here today).
> 
> The good news - we did indeed (without invitation) get into the multiple rooms held by TIVO at CES. We got our t-shirts, plushies, pens, and plenty of other Tivo-ish stuff.
> 
> We also spent about 20 minutes talking with several folks in that area, who continued to state that the new DirecTV Tivobox was still "being released in 2010".
> 
> Now the bad news - they had nothing to show, nothing on display (other than general Tivo marketing materials, and promo items.
> 
> Nothing - no hardware of any kind. They told us they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected", and they were not ready in time for CES.
> 
> But we got in to talk to them....but frankly....learned very little new, except more confirmation of a "2010" date and continued speculation...


I hate it when I'm right.


----------



## Syzygy

Actually, Stuart, those two quotes tell us that you might not have been pessimistic enough.

You predicted the people at the TiVo booth would say that the new device is "on track."

However, they reportedly said they originally planned to have some things to see, but "things were taking longer than expected."

As a sage once said, _"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get." _


----------



## Brennok

bakerfall said:


> Tivo will compete because they are Tivo. A whole home DVR solution probably won't impact them much, especially since the new DirecTivos will likely have MRV as well.
> 
> Bottom line is that the tivo software is going to cost some premium over the standard D* software and the people willing to pay that to get the Tivo OS back are not going to be dissuaded by hardware improvements that may or may not be visible to them.


I would disagree somewhat. I think for those who Tivo matters or is preferred and have no other reasons to stay with DTV will leave or have already left. Of all the people who prefer Tivo over other DVRs I know 7 out of 15 people who are still with Directv. One only stays because they are under contract and two stay for Sunday Ticket, but also refuse to make the jump to HD as a result. The other 4 are waiting to see because they aren't in a rush to switch to HD yet and they already have multiple DirecTivos.

The other 7 households have switched to Fios or Brighthouse Cable with Tivo HDs and one just switched so is currently using the Fios multiroom DVR since it is free for 90 days.

I think the ones remaining would probably jump ship to Fios or the cable company if the new Tivo came out and it didn't offer what Directv or the stand alone offered when they went to upgrade.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I've said it in the past and I will say it again .. This is TiVo's task to make it work or not .. This is not DIRECTV holding up TiVo ..


...and the visit to the Tivo room pretty much confirmed that...


Syzygy said:


> "HR24?" Several people have jumped on the bandwagon to assume that's the name of the next-generation DVR from DirecTV. I hope it's not true. A "next-generation" DVR deserves a name that differentiates it clearly from the older generation. It should not find itself lumped into the catch-all "HR2x" moniker.


Not sure you're correct on that, as the Tivobox has not been branded, labeled, or even presented anywhere. Once a prototype surfaces someplace, sometime....we will know more.


----------



## Tom_S

Syzygy said:


> "Things?" If that's exactly the word they used, it begs the question "what things?" (which I'm confident you asked).
> 
> In the absence of more detail, I feel free to assume that it's likely to be "DirecTV things" (Hardware? Software?) rather than TiVo's software.


Actually a late TiVo is the most reliable thing they do. I've said from the beginning this would take at least a year longer then the estimate.


----------



## Syzygy

Brennok said:


> Of all the people who prefer Tivo over other DVRs I know 7 out of 15 people who are still with Directv...
> 
> 7 households have switched to Fios or Brighthouse Cable with Tivo HDs and one just switched so is currently using the Fios multiroom DVR since it is free for 90 days.
> 
> I think the ones remaining would probably jump ship to Fios or the cable company if the new Tivo came out and it didn't offer what Directv or the stand alone offered when they went to upgrade.


Where you and your friends live, there's a FiOS option. If I had that option I'd jump ship too.


----------



## Doug Brott

Tom_S said:


> Actually a late TiVo is the most reliable thing they do. I've said from the beginning this would take at least a year longer then the estimate.


You are likely to be closer than me .. I said a quarter late (for sure) .. and we're already into that time period now. With the DIRECTiVo a no show for a second year now .. I'm ready to jump on Stuart's bandwagon and call it Q1/2011. That's a LONG LONG time. DIRECTV has some exciting things coming up that may simply make the TiVo moot.


----------



## Syzygy

Some exciting things, Doug? The only things that would excite me are freedom from all those bugs and freedom from pushy VOD/PPV hawking.


----------



## jacmyoung

Brennok said:


> I would disagree somewhat. I think for those who Tivo matters or is preferred and have no other reasons to stay with DTV will leave or have already left. Of all the people who prefer Tivo over other DVRs I know 7 out of 15 people who are still with Directv. One only stays because they are under contract and two stay for Sunday Ticket, but also refuse to make the jump to HD as a result. The other 4 are waiting to see because they aren't in a rush to switch to HD yet and they already have multiple DirecTivos.
> 
> The other 7 households have switched to Fios or Brighthouse Cable with Tivo HDs and one just switched so is currently using the Fios multiroom DVR since it is free for 90 days.
> 
> I think the ones remaining would probably jump ship to Fios or the cable company if the new Tivo came out and it didn't offer what Directv or the stand alone offered when they went to upgrade.


Your story flies in the face of the stats, because while TiVo has lost tens of thousands of DirecTiVo subs per quarter in the past few years, TiVo's core subs also went down, though only at a few thousand each quarter.

If your story were correct, we would have seen at least half of the lost DirecTiVo subs became new TiVo core subs, meaning TiVo's core sub count would have increased by tens of thousands in the last quarters. This is not even remotely close to the truth.

Most of those DirecTiVo subs simply got free HDDVR upgrades, moved on to the DirecTV HRXXs.


----------



## CJTE

Syzygy said:


> Some exciting things, Doug? The only things that would excite me are freedom from all those bugs and freedom from pushy VOD/PPV hawking.


Because we're all sure that any Tivo platform wouldn't push VOD/PPV...

Please. I'd place a bet that the Tivo's will have ads in the guides just like DirecTVs HD DVRs do.


----------



## Syzygy

I'm thinking about search-result pollution. Are you thinking TiVo will force you to wade through VOD/PPV programs when searching?


----------



## CJTE

Syzygy said:


> I'm thinking about search-result pollution. Are you thinking TiVo will force you to wade through VOD/PPV programs when searching?


Depends on how the search results are formed.
Obviously DirecTVs search results are what I would call, 'filterless', meaning damn near anything shows up. (Except for some hiccups in smart search).

Who's to say that Tivo's results will be better?


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Some exciting things, Doug? The only things that would excite me are freedom from all those bugs and freedom from pushy VOD/PPV hawking.


TiVo does a bit of their own hawking ..


----------



## Brennok

jacmyoung said:


> Your story flies in the face of the stats, because while TiVo has lost tens of thousands of DirecTiVo subs per quarter in the past few years, TiVo's core subs also went down, though only at a few thousand each quarter.
> 
> If your story were correct, we would have seen at least half of the lost DirecTiVo subs became new TiVo core subs, meaning TiVo's core sub count would have increased by tens of thousands in the last quarters. This is not even remotely close to the truth.
> 
> Most of those DirecTiVo subs simply got free HDDVR upgrades, moved on to the DirecTV HRXXs.


As someone else pointed out I have access to Fios along with most of my friends and family so I am not surprised this isn't the case everywhere or doesn't mesh with the stats. Also most of my friends and family either had Series 1 or Series 2 Tivo units prior to switching to Directv, but a few of them had Directv since the beginning and bought Directivos either before the software update to allow dual tuners or when Sound Advice had the 100 hour units on clearance when they were getting out of the satellite business.

Some of them jumped back to Tivo when Sears had their clearance sales and they bought them for $79 or so. Then again I have friends who are nuts and have only used versions of Media Center starting with XP though with Windows 7 I joined them though I have Tivo HDs also since the cablecard tuners aren't out yet.

With this I am not surprised I am in the minority and our stats don't mesh with the trends. We don't fit most of the trends based off stats. I also don't believe my experiences will apply to those that don't care about Tivo or favor HD over Tivo. I do believe they may apply to those who do care, have working SD Dtivos, and haven't upgraded to HD yet. When they are ready to upgrade, if the new Tivo is sub par especially compared to what is available as a stand alone unit, I could see them making the switch then.


----------



## Syzygy

CJTE said:


> Who's to say that TiVo's search results will be better?


Maybe you're forgetting that TiVo's search results *are* better *now*. I rely on my HR10-250 to find shows that my HR21 consistently fails to find. And of course TiVo currently doesn't pollute its search results, and allows me to limit the set of channels to be searched.


----------



## bonscott87

Syzygy said:


> I'm thinking about search-result pollution. Are you thinking TiVo will force you to wade through VOD/PPV programs when searching?


Huh? It is very easy to eliminate VOD or PPV from search results. I don't know of any way to get rid of pause ads on Tivo though. Let me know when you figure that one out. :lol:


----------



## Brennok

bonscott87 said:


> Huh? It is very easy to eliminate VOD or PPV from search results. I don't know of any way to get rid of pause ads on Tivo though. Let me know when you figure that one out. :lol:


I have never understood the complaint of pause ads especially since they can be hidden. Yes you have to do so each time or use a programmable remote to set a macro, but whenever I pause something it is to get up and do something or because I am otherwise distracted from the screen. I don't pause the tv and stare at it. Now if I go to use slow motion I can hide the ad so it isn't in the way. Then again I have always been one who never felt the need for a 30 second skip and always just fast forwarded through the commercials.


----------



## kelkin

For what it's worth, I went back to Cablevision a year ago mainly because I wanted the Tivo interface back, and wanted the features the Tivo has that the DTV-HR20's don't have such as Netflix streaming, etc. I have to admit, I do miss being part of the CE program and due to a few reasons I'm considering going back to DirecTV. I was going to wait for the new Tivo to come out, but due to the Scrips removal of programming from Cablevision which is 95% of what my girlfriend watches.. I may come back early.

I'm excited to see what new functionality has been added to the HR20/HR21 since I've been gone.. I may find out as soon as tomorrow night..
-Keith


----------



## MycroftHolmes

For me it's not just the inclusion of PPV and VOD, which I know can be eliminated, but the fact that the results are returned in chronological order. I would prefer for them to be returned in alphabetical order and to be grouped by title. When I had a DirecTiVo I would often do a search for “Movies” to see what was coming up in the next two weeks or so. I can no longer do that easily. I have to wade through pages of duplicate titles. I have to scroll several pages just to get to movies that haven’t started yet. Also it’s very difficult to even determine if I’m able to get the movie in the list because only the channel number is displayed, not the name or logo of the channel. I wouldn't even mind the inclusion of PPV and VOD if I could get the titles grouped and then, if I'm interested, dig deeper to see when and what channels it's playing on.

So overall despite the fact that there are things I love about my Directv DVR, search is surely not one of them. TiVo’s search fit my needs better.


----------



## Syzygy

bonscott87 said:


> Huh? It is very easy to eliminate VOD or PPV from search results...


Will you stop that?

You've been posting repeatedly that it's easy (now *very* easy) to eliminate VOD or PPV from search results, when it isn't.

I'm sure you know you can't eliminate VOD *and* PPV with NNOT because it allows only one word after it. And who wants to enter NNOT PPV or NNOT VOD or CCHAN 200 550 after every search? (Plus you'd still be getting hits on channels you can't get.)


----------



## sigma1914

Syzygy said:


> Will you stop that?
> 
> You've been posting repeatedly that it's easy (now *very* easy) to eliminate VOD or PPV from search results, when it isn't.
> 
> I'm sure you know you can't eliminate VOD *and* PPV with NNOT because it allows only one word after it. And who wants to enter NNOT PPV or NNOT VOD or CCHAN 200 550 after every search? (Plus you'd still be getting hits on channels you can't get.)


It is easy...typing is a breeze since it can be done like texting with number keys. NNOT PPV is 66 (slight pause) 66 (slight pause) 666 8 space 7 (slight pause) 7 (slight pause) 888.


----------



## mjbvideo

sigma1914 said:


> It is easy...typing is a breeze since it can be done like texting with number keys. NNOT PPV is 66 (slight pause) 66 (slight pause) 666 8 space 7 (slight pause) 7 (slight pause) 888.


It's easy? Your kidding, right? It's hard to tell when people are pulling your leg in these forums.

Average users would never consider this method easy...


----------



## Nicholsen

sigma1914 said:


> It is easy...typing is a breeze since it can be done like texting with number keys. NNOT PPV is 66 (slight pause) 66 (slight pause) 666 8 space 7 (slight pause) 7 (slight pause) 888.


Why didn't I think of this before? It's completely intuitive and user friendly!

(slight pause)

:lol::lol::lol:

I hope this was intended as sarcasm. My HR21 won't even accept a 3 digit channel change correctly.


----------



## Tom_S

Doug Brott said:


> You are likely to be closer than me .. I said a quarter late (for sure) .. and we're already into that time period now. With the DIRECTiVo a no show for a second year now .. I'm ready to jump on Stuart's bandwagon and call it Q1/2011. That's a LONG LONG time. DIRECTV has some exciting things coming up that may simply make the TiVo moot.


Don't get me wrong, I'm sure TiVo will release something this year. It will probably be a compelling and probably superior product, however with all the time that has gone by I am finding it very difficult to care anymore.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm sure TiVo will release something this year. It will probably be a compelling and probably superior product, however with all the time that has gone by I am finding it very difficult to care anymore.


While I'm flying home from CES in a few hours....I learned alot with my Tivo fanboy  at my side (Richierich)...he loves Tivo, so he shares the same kind of interest in all this as many of you do.

Having spoken to a number of folks on the ground here...it became repeatedly obvious:

1) "Something this year" - depends who you ask...I'd guess 50/50 chance by 12/2010.

2) "Compelling and probably superior" - certainly it will be something more in the Tivo world than the past...more like "new and improved" might fit better...superior remains to be seen.

3) The longer it takes to come out, as you stated.....the longer other things may be desirable in its place.


----------



## Steve

If we ever have a "_post and reply of the month_" contest, I'd like to nominate these two *standouts*! :lol:



sigma1914 said:


> It is easy...typing is a breeze since it can be done like texting with number keys. NNOT PPV is 66 (slight pause) 66 (slight pause) 666 8 space 7 (slight pause) 7 (slight pause) 888.





Nicholsen said:


> Why didn't I think of this before? It's completely intuitive and user friendly!
> 
> (slight pause)
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> I hope this was intended as sarcasm. My HR21 won't even accept a 3 digit channel change correctly.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And that, friends, ends another chapter of "As the TiVo Turns." 

In seriousness, I'm saddened that TiVo had nothing to show and nothing to talk about. This does not seem like a company that wants to sell consumer electronics. It's hard to say what they do really want, but my total guess is that they want to leverage the TiVo name and TiVo brand for use on Motorola cable boxes and Broadcom-based devices for people who want a TiVo-branded option. The problem is, they are perpetually starved for R&D funds while waiting for their settlement from Dish.


----------



## Syzygy

Tom_S said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm sure TiVo will release something this year. It will probably be a compelling and probably superior product, however with all the time that has gone by I am finding it very difficult to care anymore.


Tom, I like the way you think!

Except that I wonder why you qualified _superior _with _probably. _The HR2x sets a *very* low bar! Did you mean _"probably superior to other DVRs in general?"_ That'd make sense to me.

_"Very difficult to care anymore?"_ Every time my HR21 lies to me, saying no upcoming showings are available, I care. Every time my HR21 fails to respond to a keypress, I care. Every time I have to manually cancel heaps of rerun recordings, I care. Every time Instant Replay goes back only one or two seconds, I care. Every time I press Exit too late and get dumped into Live TV, I care.

In fact, I can't wait! (Not literally, of course.  I have to wait.)


----------



## tonyd79

Doug Brott said:


> TiVo does a bit of their own hawking ..


A bit? That is a bit of an understatement.

How about an ad on just about every screen you pop up, including PAUSE?

Tivo has long since gotten littered all over the place.

Neither DirecTV nor Tivo are at the point where they annoy me, though. That is left to Comcast's DVRs where you are almost forced to wade through an ad on every scroll of the guide and they are not in line.


----------



## Tom_S

Syzygy said:


> Tom, I like the way you think!
> 
> Except that I wonder why you qualified _superior _with _probably. _The HR2x sets a *very* low bar! Did you mean _"probably superior to other DVRs in general?"_ That'd make sense to me.
> 
> _"Very difficult to care anymore?"_ Every time my HR21 lies to me, saying no upcoming showings are available, I care. Every time my HR21 fails to respond to a keypress, I care. Every time I have to manually cancel heaps of rerun recordings, I care. Every time Instant Replay goes back only one or two seconds, I care. Every time I press Exit too late and get dumped into Live TV, I care.
> 
> In fact, I can't wait! (Not literally, of course.  I have to wait.)


Well, at first I was very unhappy with the HR20. It would lock-up, reboot, miss recordings, unwatchable recordings, etc. But due to the efforts of DirecTV and the CE program I find it very satisfying. I think my original HR20 is a responsive and enjoyable experience.

I have been interested in what TiVo would bring out, and I think it will probably be superior, but TiVo has decided to NOT TELL ME ONE DAMN THING! This makes me wonder what features will be included and how it will work in general. In essence, not to care anymore.


----------



## Doug Brott

With the new HD DIRECTiVo being a no-show @ CES .. We'll just have to continue talking about it. Vaporware simply cannot be superior at this point in time ..


----------



## tuff bob

Nicholsen said:


> My HR21 won't even accept a 3 digit channel change correctly.


I get so annoyed with that!


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> And that, friends, ends another chapter of "As the TiVo Turns."
> 
> In seriousness, I'm saddened that TiVo had nothing to show and nothing to talk about. This does not seem like a company that wants to sell consumer electronics. It's hard to say what they do really want, but my total guess is that they want to leverage the TiVo name and TiVo brand for use on Motorola cable boxes and Broadcom-based devices for people who want a TiVo-branded option. The problem is, they are perpetually starved for R&D funds while waiting for their settlement from Dish.


I know you guys do not agree, but I am still convinced that the delay has a lot to do with DirecTV more than TiVo. As lack of focus as TiVo has shown in the recent past, there is no way TiVo is screwing up this major development from a technical standpoint, TiVo needs the renewed DirecTV penetration.

But DirecTV does not need TiVo. It is proven because while DirecTV has been shedding TiVo subs by the tens of thousands, it continues to gain net subs in the 200K range each quarter. DirecTV's initial agreement with TiVo had to do with their lack of DVR platform at that time to compete with DISH and Comcast, also in great part to avoid litigation. Neither of the problems exists any more. DirecTV's own HR platform is clearly accepted by their subs, and it also now owns ReplayTV IPs.

Despite many TiVo folks believe DirecTV is bind by the TiVo contract to meet some milestones, the fact of the matter is, if DirecTV takes a passive approach there is nothing TiVo can do about it, TiVo cannot publicly dispute DirecTV's handling of the agreement, if they do TiVo's stock will tank. DirecTV can comfortably drag this thing out without much fear of any backlash from TiVo. TiVo has no other option.

Of course DirecTV does not have to drag it out, if it decides the new DirecTiVo is a good thing to roll out, they can do so in a heart beat. There is nothing magical about adding the MPEG4 capability to a DirecTiVo DVR, everything else is already mature TiVo technology existing on the MPEG2 DirecTiVo DVRs.


----------



## Alan Gordon

sigma1914 said:


> It is easy...typing is a breeze since it can be done like texting with number keys. NNOT PPV is 66 (slight pause) 66 (slight pause) 666 8 space 7 (slight pause) 7 (slight pause) 888.


LOL!!

It's only January, but I nominate this post for the "Best Post Of The Year" category! 

NOTE: I see Steve already said something similar. I second his nomination!



tonyd79 said:


> A bit? That is a bit of an understatement.
> 
> How about an ad on just about every screen you pop up, including PAUSE?
> 
> Tivo has long since gotten littered all over the place.
> 
> Neither DirecTV nor Tivo are at the point where they annoy me, though. That is left to Comcast's DVRs where you are almost forced to wade through an ad on every scroll of the guide and they are not in line.


While I agree that neither DirecTV or TiVo ads annoy me, I'm confused by how many ads you think pop up on TiVo? I don't really get that many ads on my Series 3... In fact, I probably get less on it than my HR2xs... not that I get many on it either...



MycroftHolmes said:


> So overall despite the fact that there are things I love about my Directv DVR, search is surely not one of them. TiVo's search fit my needs better.


There are areas where TiVo is superior. There are issues where the HR2x is superior. There are areas where it depends on the user's preferences, but I would have a hard time believing ANYONE who claimed DirecTV's search functions were better than TiVo's.



Doug Brott said:


> DIRECTV has some exciting things coming up that may simply make the TiVo moot.


::::::::::Crossing Fingers::::::::::​
~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jacmyoung said:


> I know you guys do not agree, but I am still convinced that the delay has a lot to do with DirecTV more than TiVo. As lack of focus as TiVo has shown in the recent past, there is no way TiVo is screwing up this major development from a technical standpoint, TiVo needs the renewed DirecTV penetration.
> 
> But DirecTV does not need TiVo. It is proven because while DirecTV has been shedding TiVo subs by the tens of thousands, it continues to gain net subs in the 200K range each quarter. DirecTV's initial agreement with TiVo had to do with their lack of DVR platform at that time to compete with DISH and Comcast, also in great part to avoid litigation. Neither of the problems exists any more. DirecTV's own HR platform is clearly accepted by their subs, and it also now owns ReplayTV IPs.
> 
> Despite many TiVo folks believe DirecTV is bind by the TiVo contract to meet some milestones, the fact of the matter is, if DirecTV takes a passive approach there is nothing TiVo can do about it, TiVo cannot publicly dispute DirecTV's handling of the agreement, if they do TiVo's stock will tank. DirecTV can comfortably drag this thing out without much fear of any backlash from TiVo. TiVo has no other option.
> 
> Of course DirecTV does not have to drag it out, if it decides the new DirecTiVo is a good thing to roll out, they can do so in a heart beat. There is nothing magical about adding the MPEG4 capability to a DirecTiVo DVR, everything else is already mature TiVo technology existing on the MPEG2 DirecTiVo DVRs.


I'd say that your interpretation of the tea leaves is as valid as any other. Personally I tend to think it's more of the other way around, that DIRECTV has provided the hardware and software that they needed to provide long ago, and TiVo's having a tough time making it work. Ultimately this seems like it was the case with the Comcast-Tivo and I have no reason to believe it's any different here.


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> Personally I tend to think ... TiVo's having a tough time making it work. Ultimately this seems like it was the case with the Comcast-Tivo and I have no reason to believe it's any different here.


Apples and oranges.

Comcast-TiVo: Mixture of average and substandard hardware; difficult merging of two software regimes.

DirecTV-TiVo: One single state-of-the-art box; no need to run two software platforms together in the same box.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy, unless you are privy to more information than I have, you don't know what platform the new TiVo will run on. All I know is that the Comcast-Tivo was supposed to be a simple port and it took 3 years. Now the same people are trying to port the TiVo software again. 

As far as state-of-the-art or not... well here's the way I think it boils down. 

If they use the HR22/HR23 architechture then they are dealing with the same processor and a lot of the same support chips as their own product. If they are waiting for some unreleased hardware that might not have the same chipset, that will take them longer. 

If it were me I'd be using the HR22/HR23 architecture to get a product out and then maybe developing a 2nd-gen product based on something newer.

Or are you saying the HR22/HR23 architecture is state-of-the-art? That would be the first time you admitted it


----------



## ffemtreed

tuff bob said:


> I get so annoyed with that!


Its a remote issue, you need to change your batteries...... I bet you heard that one before...... LMFAO!!!!


----------



## bakerfall

Stuart Sweet said:


> Syzygy, unless you are privy to more information than I have, you don't know what platform the new TiVo will run on. All I know is that the Comcast-Tivo was supposed to be a simple port and it took 3 years. Now the same people are trying to port the TiVo software again.
> 
> As far as state-of-the-art or not... well here's the way I think it boils down.
> 
> If they use the HR22/HR23 architechture then they are dealing with the same processor and a lot of the same support chips as their own product. If they are waiting for some unreleased hardware that might not have the same chipset, that will take them longer.
> 
> If it were me I'd be using the HR22/HR23 architecture to get a product out and then maybe developing a 2nd-gen product based on something newer.
> 
> Or are you saying the HR22/HR23 architecture is state-of-the-art? That would be the first time you admitted it


Has it been ruled out that this will be a downloadable upgrade to existing hardware? It seems to me that from Tivos standpoint, that would give them the highest potential for subscribers in the shortest amount of time possible.


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> Syzygy, unless you are privy to more information than I have, you don't know what platform the new TiVo will run on.
> :
> Or are you saying the HR22/HR23 architecture is state-of-the-art? That would be the first time you admitted it


I don't have more information, just (un)educated guesses.

I was saying the HR22/HR23 architecture is state-of-the-art, *compared to Comcast's boxes*, and given the cost constraints D* applied to its manufacture. Maybe I should have said "better" or "modern" or "nearly state-of-the-art."  But I still hope that the new TiVo runs on even better hardware.

My complaints are directed at the D* software.


----------



## Doug Brott

bakerfall said:


> Has it been ruled out that this will be a downloadable upgrade to existing hardware? It seems to me that from Tivos standpoint, that would give them the highest potential for subscribers in the shortest amount of time possible.


I'm not 100% sure .. but I'm pretty darn close to 100% sure. So yeah, there's always a chance.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> Comcast-TiVo: Mixture of average and substandard hardware; difficult merging of two software regimes.
> 
> DirecTV-TiVo: One single state-of-the-art box; no need to run two software platforms together in the same box.


But a common theme .. TiVo delayed. Why is it always a conspiracy? The simplest answer is usually the correct answer. The most likely answer is that TiVo just can't get it done as fast as they would like to get it done. But somehow it's Comcast's fault or DIRECTV's fault that TiVo can't produce.


----------



## bakerfall

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not 100% sure .. but I'm pretty darn close to 100% sure. So yeah, there's always a chance.


Even if it's field installable it would be better. At the very least, some form of swap out would be good.

I invested in 4 HR2X boxes when Tivo went away (I still have 3 of those including a full price HR10) and I really do not want to have to start over from a cost standpoint if I make the switch back.


----------



## Tom_S

Stuart Sweet said:


> If they use the HR22/HR23 architechture then they are dealing with the same processor and a lot of the same support chips as their own product. If they are waiting for some unreleased hardware that might not have the same chipset, that will take them longer.


You know, hearing this again really annoys me. If the HR20 series is so similar exactly WTF is taking so long. I agree that they SHOULD have tailored their current software to run on the available right now hardware. Instead of, well, whatever the hell they are doing.

At this point I don't even want it anymore.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> There is nothing magical about adding the MPEG4 capability to a DirecTiVo DVR, everything else is already mature TiVo technology existing on the MPEG2 DirecTiVo DVRs.


I'm going to disagree with Stuart's belief that your reading of the tea leaves is as valid as any other as the above is simply not true.

TiVo needs to add DirecTV's interactive features... something that TiVo would have difficulty porting over. It's a lot more difficult than simply making an MPEG4 TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not 100% sure .. but I'm pretty darn close to 100% sure. So yeah, there's always a chance.


There's been a lot of see-sawing about this over the last couple of years. It would be nice if we were able to at least hear something concrete about this part.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Tom_S said:


> If the HR20 series is so similar exactly WTF is taking so long...


Basic DirecTV MPEG4 support, and maybe DirecTV MRV (DLNA), and DirecTV-on-Demand, and SWM support, and AM21 support, and support for interactive applications, and maybe DECA support ... and maybe I missed a few ... tough to understand what's in and what's not ... and maybe an HD GUI ...

And the standard port of the base code ... and the strip out of anything that will not be supported ...


----------



## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm going to disagree with Stuart's belief that your reading of the tea leaves is as valid as any other as the above is simply not true.
> 
> TiVo needs to add DirecTV's interactive features... something that TiVo would have difficulty porting over. It's a lot more difficult than simply making an MPEG4 TiVo.
> 
> ~Alan


Not sure I agree with that. There's probably a large % of the DirecTV viewing audience that would have been content with an MPEG-4 version of the HR10-250. I.e., a basic "recording/tv-watching" appliance, offering no other bells or whistles.


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> There's been a lot of see-sawing about this over the last couple of years. It would be nice if we were able to at least hear something concrete about this part.
> 
> ~Alan


It would have been nice to see at least a picture of the device at CES ..


----------



## bakerfall

Tom_S said:


> You know, hearing this again really annoys me. If the HR20 series is so similar exactly WTF is taking so long. I agree that they SHOULD have tailored their current software to run on the available right now hardware. Instead of, well, whatever the hell they are doing.
> 
> At this point I don't even want it anymore.


The fact that it's taken them longer than anticipated = you don't want it anymore?

I understand that the delays have been frustrating, but this logic doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Tom_S said:


> You know, hearing this again really annoys me. If the HR20 series is so similar exactly WTF is taking so long. I agree that they SHOULD have tailored their current software to run on the available right now hardware. Instead of, well, whatever the hell they are doing.
> 
> At this point I don't even want it anymore.


Heck, you're right. (That's right, I said Heck!)

It should be done by now. It should have been done last year. After all, DIRECTV MPEG4 support for that chipset is mature, and the chips are the same as the current TiVo standalone. So what the heck? (Oh golly I'm on a roll.)

I just don't know.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> Not sure I agree with that. There's probably a large % of the DirecTV viewing audience that would have been content with an MPEG-4 version of the HR10-250. I.e., a basic "recording/tv-watching" appliance, offering no other bells or whistles.


Agreed!

However, we know that the new TiVo is supposed to have TiVo Search (which I just found out something cool about the other day) and TiVo KidZone.

I'm just guessing that DirecTV will probably want the new TiVo to have access to DoD... which TiVo offers (well, VoD) on their stand-alones, but DirecTV will probably want the individual screens like their receivers do... and not like TiVo's implementation. I would also imagine that DirecTV might want to require that TiVo offers access to some of their other interactive features. The ComcasTiVo has several features not available on the stand-alone TiVos. It's very possible DirecTV might want to do the same. Let's also not forget that DirecTV might want TiVo to support THEIR version of MRV instead of the (IMHO, preferable) TiVo version of MRV... as well as other features.

It's also possible that if the new TiVo Premiere is going to have a GUI re-design, that TiVo might want to wait and offer it on the DirecTV box as well...

~Alan


----------



## sigma1914

mjbvideo said:


> It's easy? Your kidding, right? It's hard to tell when people are pulling your leg in these forums.
> 
> Average users would never consider this method easy...





Nicholsen said:


> Why didn't I think of this before? It's completely intuitive and user friendly!
> 
> (slight pause)
> 
> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> I hope this was intended as sarcasm. My HR21 won't even accept a 3 digit channel change correctly.


It was sarcasm...Heck, it took me 20 minutes to type the post because I was trying to remember what letters were which numbers. :lol:


----------



## tuff bob

ffemtreed said:


> Its a remote issue, you need to change your batteries...... I bet you heard that one before...... LMFAO!!!!


yeah, well except my brand new remote with brand new batteries does it - directv must be sending bad batteries :lol:

the HR's clearly don't prioritize listening for the remote high enough.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> It would have been nice to see at least a picture of the device at CES ..


Indeed!

On one hand, I like the idea of separate boxes.

On the other hand, I like the idea of being able to upgrade my current HR2x boxes should I decide to go the TiVo route on them. The other boxes I plan to upgrade to the new TiVo are already TiVos, so I'd need new ones for them regardless. I'd also like to know, so I can determine whether or not to push for my grandmother to go ahead and get an HD-DVR to replace her SD-TiVo... in the knowledge that she can upgrade to a TiVo later.

I also get a kick out the line in the press release (linked to in the first post):



PRNewswire-FirstCall said:


> Like prior products developed by TiVo and DIRECTV, the new HD offering will be marketed and *sold* by DIRECTV nationally to its entire customer base as part of its growing portfolio of brand name video offerings. Specific consumer pricing and packaging will be announced in conjunction with DIRECTV's launch of the product.





tuff bob said:


> yeah, well except my brand new remote with brand new batteries does it - directv must be sending bad batteries :lol:


Yeah, I miss the old TiVo remote as well. One that actually worked the first time you hit the button... and it had better RF capability too! 

~Alan


----------



## Tom_S

bakerfall said:


> The fact that it's taken them longer than anticipated = you don't want it anymore?
> 
> I understand that the delays have been frustrating, but this logic doesn't make sense to me.


Simple, I have moved on. I can understand delays, but c'mon. They should have had it out by now, are they not in the business to make money? This does not help their reputation.


----------



## Syzygy

Tom_S said:


> Simple, I have moved on...


I understand. But if, one day, you receive a postcard from TiVo saying "I'm ready, at long last. Will you marry me?" ... I'm sure you'll seriously consider taking the big step.


----------



## bakerfall

Tom_S said:


> Simple, I have moved on. I can understand delays, but c'mon. They should have had it out by now, are they not in the business to make money? This does not help their reputation.


That's my question I guess, moved on to what? Did you not have an HR2X before and now you do? I for one have had an HR20 since it launched and while I'm using them and would like the Tivo to come out, I have nowhere to "move on" to, unless I dump D* and switch to Media Center.


----------



## Ken_F

Stuart Sweet said:


> Syzygy, unless you are privy to more information than I have, you don't know what platform the new TiVo will run on. All I know is that the Comcast-Tivo was supposed to be a simple port and it took 3 years.


There are always technical issues, but the DirecTV situation is not at all comparable to the Comcast situation.

The existing standalone and DirecTiVo software was written in C, with much of the code shared between the two platforms. The Comcast software was not a simple port. It had to be re-written from the ground up in Java to run on Comcast's TV Navigator middleware. At the time this agreement was made, that middleware was not suitable for TiVo's needs. Developers spent much of their time finding workarounds to make their software work in an acceptable fashion, as they waited and waited for promised changes to TV Navigator. Some of those changes were dependent on other firmware updates. Changes to the firmware and TV Navigator were not always as expected.

Less of a factor, although still an issue, were the hardware constraints noted by a previous poster.



Tom_S said:


> You know, hearing this again really annoys me. If the HR20 series is so similar exactly WTF is taking so long. I agree that they SHOULD have tailored their current software to run on the available right now hardware. Instead of, well, whatever the hell they are doing.





Stuart Sweet said:


> It should be done by now. It should have been done last year. After all, DIRECTV MPEG4 support for that chipset is mature, and the chips are the same as the current TiVo standalone. So what the heck? (Oh golly I'm on a roll.)
> 
> I just don't know.


I do know. TiVo knows the current software isn't good enough to make the DirecTiVo a success.

TiVo is not bringing the existing standalone/DirecTiVo platform to DirecTV. The existing platform is ten years old, and was originally designed for obsolete hardware. TiVo patched its software over and over to support new hardware and add new features, while preserving backward compatibility, and now they have a kludge that is difficult and expensive to maintain. No one understands everything that is in it, and few understand all the dependencies necessary to implement certain improvements. In that regard, their situation is similar in some respects to what Palm faced 3-5 years ago.

TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months. This software platform is free from most baggage, and much more suitable for new and future-generation hardware. This platform is able to integrate and support modern technologies developed for the web, and requires fewer resources to update and maintain. It's supposed to be nearing completion, although my sources are purposely vague on that. Few know exactly what it looks like, or what new features it adds, and those that do aren't talking. This is fact, not speculation.

I thought TiVo might debut the new platform on the "TiVo Premiere" standalone at CES, but that didn't happen.


----------



## jaywdetroit

What are the possibilities that D* could get Tivo's software logic, to add 'Suggestions' (pre-recorded shows based on what the software 'thinks' you will like) to it's own DVR platform?

Now that we have DLB, that is the only Tivo feature left that I really miss.


----------



## Jeremy W

Ken_F said:


> TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months. This software platform is free from most baggage, and much more suitable for new and future-generation hardware.


Now *that* is some very interesting news. My lack of interest has been based upon the new DVR being the same warmed-over crap they've been serving up for 10 years. If DirecTV's new Tivo-based DVR is a whole new Tivo platform, they may be able to grab my attention.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

jaywdetroit said:


> What are the possibilities that D* could get Tivo's software logic, to add 'Suggestions' (pre-recorded shows based on what the software 'thinks' you will like) to it's own DVR platform?
> 
> Now that we have DLB, that is the only Tivo feature left that I really miss.


I've heard nothing about TiVo features like that migrating over to the DIRECTV boxes.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Ken_F said:


> There are always technical issues, but the DirecTV situation is not at all comparable to the Comcast situation.
> 
> The existing standalone and DirecTiVo software was written in C, with much of the code shared between the two platforms. The Comcast software was not a simple port. It had to be re-written from the ground up in Java to run on Comcast's TV Navigator middleware. At the time this agreement was made, that middleware was not suitable for TiVo's needs. Developers spent much of their time finding workarounds to make their software work in an acceptable fashion, as they waited and waited for promised changes to TV Navigator. Some of those changes were dependent on other firmware updates. Changes to the firmware and TV Navigator were not always as expected.
> 
> Less of a factor, although still an issue, were the hardware constraints noted by a previous poster.


Thanks for the lesson, Ken! 



Ken_F said:


> TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months. This software platform is free from most baggage, and much more suitable for new and future-generation hardware. This platform is able to integrate and support modern technologies developed for the web, and requires fewer resources to update and maintain. It's supposed to be nearing completion, although my sources are purposely vague on that. Few know exactly what it looks like, or what new features it adds, and those that do aren't talking. This is fact, not speculation.
> 
> I thought TiVo might debut the new platform on the "TiVo Premiere" standalone at CES, but that didn't happen.


Honestly, I've read something in the last few days which seems to support what you've said.

~Alan


----------



## Nicholsen

Ken_F said:


> TiVo knows the current software isn't good enough to make the DirecTiVo a success.
> 
> TiVo is not bringing the existing standalone/DirecTiVo platform to DirecTV. The existing platform is ten years old, and was originally designed for obsolete hardware. TiVo patched its software over and over to support new hardware and add new features, while preserving backward compatibility, and now they have a kludge that is difficult and expensive to maintain. No one understands everything that is in it, and few understand all the dependencies necessary to implement certain improvements. In that regard, their situation is similar in some respects to what Palm faced 3-5 years ago.
> 
> TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months. This software platform is free from most baggage, and much more suitable for new and future-generation hardware. This platform is able to integrate and support modern technologies developed for the web, and requires fewer resources to update and maintain. It's supposed to be nearing completion, although my sources are purposely vague on that. Few know exactly what it looks like, or what new features it adds, and those that do aren't talking. This is fact, not speculation.


I have no inside information, but this is an explanation that makes sense to me. As the HR2X continues to evolve (evolution is sometimes different than improvement), the new TiVo will need to have most of the HR2x features, be highly reliable, and do some cool stuff that the HR2s can't do (like powerful content search and easy web TV access).

A "state of the art" DVR needs to do content over the web (Hulu, YouTube, etc.), NetFlix on Demand (even though it competes in some limited ways with D* VOD offerings) and probably OTA as well.

What power users want is one box that "finds" desired content everyone and brings it to one place. That is value added that is worth some extra $$.


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> ... I do know. ...


And that's why I have always enjoyed reading each and every one of your posts.


----------



## ziggy29

Nicholsen said:


> A "state of the art" DVR needs to do content over the web (Hulu, YouTube, etc.), NetFlix on Demand (even though it competes in some limited ways with D* VOD offerings) and probably OTA as well.


Probably so. It's pretty obvious that these methods of content delivery are converging. The problem is that the more methods you have (OTA, cable, satellite, broadband Internet), the harder (and costlier) it is to handle everything.

The current S3 TiVos, for example, already have Netflix download capabilities -- if I ever decide to ditch D* because of costs, we do already have a Netflix subscription and we'd probably want to use an OTA TiVo/Netflix box together with some online broadband-delivered video on demand. (We have Verizon DSL here so we also get ESPN360, for example.)

At some point I think there will be "winners" and "losers" and some technologies will become obsolete, though perhaps not fully so for another decade or two.


----------



## smiddy

Ken_F said:


> I thought TiVo might debut the new platform on the "TiVo Premiere" standalone at CES, but that didn't happen.


Their meeting room was less than stellar. The way it was explained to me was that they were there to build business relationships and there would be no hardware demonstrations. Everyone in their exhibit was excited about the DirecTiVo but no one had anything that was concrete that I could report.  I did get my kids their stuffed TiVo thingies, and a T-Shirt.  My 2 year old loves it, I took pictures of her hugging it this morning.


----------



## bidger

smiddy said:


> Their meeting room was less than stellar. The way it was explained to me was that they were there to build business relationships and there would be no hardware demonstrations.


Kinda contradicts the purpose of those huge TiVo blow-ups outside the center you featured in your photos. TiVo used those to draw folks to them, then when folks arrived and excitedly asked, "What do you have for us TiVo?!", their response was "Our business card. Take a couple and feel free to distribute them. We're here to network".


----------



## cartrivision

jacmyoung said:


> Your story flies in the face of the stats, because while TiVo has lost tens of thousands of DirecTiVo subs per quarter in the past few years, TiVo's core subs also went down, though only at a few thousand each quarter.
> 
> If your story were correct, we would have seen at least half of the lost DirecTiVo subs became new TiVo core subs, meaning TiVo's core sub count would have increased by tens of thousands in the last quarters. This is not even remotely close to the truth.
> 
> Most of those DirecTiVo subs simply got free HDDVR upgrades, moved on to the DirecTV HRXXs.


While I have no idea how many former DirecTV Tivo customers jumped to other providers who support Tivo, your argument of "proof" that it hasn't happened makes no sense. You incorrectly assume that Tivo's net subscriber loss means that they haven't gained any new subscribers. That simply is not true. All that subscriber loss number that you referenced means is that greater numbers of old/existing Tivo subscribers churned out than the number of new subscribers that Tivo has signed up.


----------



## kevinturcotte

cartrivision said:


> While I have no idea how many former DirecTV Tivo customers jumped to other providers who support Tivo, your argument of "proof" that it hasn't happened makes no sense. You incorrectly assume that Tivo's net subscriber loss means that they haven't gained any new subscribers. That simply is not true. All that subscriber loss number that you referenced means is that greater numbers of old/existing Tivo subscribers churned out than the number of new subscribers that Tivo has signed up.


I LOVED the Tivo, but didn't jump ship, simply because the HR20 mostly satisfied me, and Directv satisfies me MUCH more than cable. However, I am very interested to see a new DirecTivo unit. Whether or not I'll actually get some though, or stick with Directv's format, remains to be seen.


----------



## jacmyoung

cartrivision said:


> While I have no idea how many former DirecTV Tivo customers jumped to other providers who support Tivo, your argument of "proof" that it hasn't happened makes no sense. You incorrectly assume that Tivo's net subscriber loss means that they haven't gained any new subscribers. That simply is not true. All that subscriber loss number that you referenced means is that greater numbers of old/existing Tivo subscribers churned out than the number of new subscribers that Tivo has signed up.


I can pull up all the stats to prove it again for you, but my comment was very specific to the story Brennok used, and since he apparently admitted his story was in direct contrast to the norm, end of the story.


----------



## Tom_S

bakerfall said:


> That's my question I guess, moved on to what? Did you not have an HR2X before and now you do? I for one have had an HR20 since it launched and while I'm using them and would like the Tivo to come out, I have nowhere to "move on" to, unless I dump D* and switch to Media Center.


Moved on from not liking the HR20 to liking it. If the TiVo came out a year ago I might have bought it, but now, don't see the need.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Tom_S said:


> Moved on from not liking the HR20 to liking it. If the TiVo came out a year ago I might have bought it, but now, don't see the need.


Depends for me. If they can give me an MPEG-4 HR10 with SWM support, MRV, and VOD, I'd probably jump just for the Wishlists. If it has more than 2 tuners, even better!!!


----------



## cartrivision

jacmyoung said:


> I can pull up all the stats to prove it again for you, but my comment was very specific to the story Brennok used, and since he apparently admitted his story was in direct contrast to the norm, end of the story.


Actually, I really doubt that you you could pull up any stats that match your claim that DirecTV customers haven't become core Tivo customers, given the fact that you are erroneously assuming that a decline in the net number of "core subscribers" means that no new core subscribers were added... which is simply wrong.... end of story.


----------



## Alan Gordon

smiddy said:


> Their meeting room was less than stellar. The way it was explained to me was that they were there to build business relationships and there would be no hardware demonstrations. Everyone in their exhibit was excited about the DirecTiVo but no one had anything that was concrete that I could report.  I did get my kids their stuffed TiVo thingies, and a T-Shirt.  My 2 year old loves it, I took pictures of her hugging it this morning.


It'd be interesting to know what Dave Zatz found out:

Zatz Not Funny

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Who's jealous of Smiddy's kids...


----------



## jacmyoung

cartrivision said:


> Actually, I really doubt that you you could pull up any stats that match your claim that DirecTV customers haven't become core Tivo customers, given the fact that you are erroneously assuming that a decline in the net number of "core subscribers" means that no new core subscribers were added... which is simply wrong.... end of story.


There was only one story told, it ended after he admitted his story was in contrast to the trend. What is your story?

Now in the 3rd quarter, TiVo added 34k new core subs, lost 79k core subs, with a net of 45k core sub loss. It also lost a net 269k "MSOs/Broadcasters" subs, which were mostly DirecTiVo subs. If his story were correct, at least half of the 269k would have become new TiVo core subs, that would have been a 135k core sub additions from DirecTV alone, yet TiVo only added 34k new core subs, even if we assume they all came from the defecting DirecTV TiVo subs, which is highly unlikely, but even if true, only 13% of the 269K decided to become core TiVo subs.

What happened to the other 235k DirecTiVo subs? Most of them simply upgraded to DirecTV's own hardware. Now you know why DirecTV is not working so hard on the new DirecTiVo DVR. Feeling better now?


----------



## Brennok

jacmyoung said:


> Now in the 3rd quarter, TiVo added 34k new core subs, lost 79k core subs, with a net of 45k core sub loss. It also lost a net 269k "MSOs/Broadcasters" subs, which were mostly DirecTiVo subs.


One thing to keep in mind also from what I have read is Tivo does count lifetime subscriptions after so long as a lost sub. I believe they use 3 years as the guide since after 3 years that is approximately when the lifetime sub begins to cost them money versus making them money. This of course means it can be difficult to track actual numbers since some of those lost subs may be people with lifetime series 2 who previously added a series 3/Tivo HD when they became available.

At this point I think for some users Tivo could release a base DirecTivo that records HD and they would be happy. Then over time they could patch in the other features like the interactive channels similar to how they patched in dual tuners originally. The current SD users waiting to upgrade don't use those features currently since they can't, but then again some of the software may require more of a rewrite to implement some of these features cleanly.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Brennok said:


> At this point I think for some users Tivo could release a base DirecTivo that records HD and they would be happy. Then over time they could patch in the other features like the interactive channels similar to how they patched in dual tuners originally. The current SD users waiting to upgrade don't use those features currently since they can't, but then again some of the software may require more of a rewrite to implement some of these features cleanly.


Exactly. Give me a RELIABLE, rock solid box like the HDVR2s I had, give me back my Wishlists, SWM support, MPEG-4 support, MRV, and I'm happy. More than 2 tuners would make me even happier!


----------



## Jeremy W

Brennok said:


> At this point I think for some users Tivo could release a base DirecTivo that records HD and they would be happy. Then over time they could patch in the other features like the interactive channels similar to how they patched in dual tuners originally.


DirecTV would never allow them to release a DVR with core functionality missing.


----------



## Brennok

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV would never allow them to release a DVR with core functionality missing.


I know but one can wish. I don't really consider not being able to use the interactive channels though core functionality but then again I never was able to use them when I had Directv.


----------



## jacmyoung

Brennok said:


> ... I believe they use 3 years as the guide since after 3 years that is approximately when the lifetime sub begins to cost them money versus making them money. ...


If TiVo intentionally stops counting those subs, it seems it is intentionally trying to hide the revenue loss from those subs? Regardless though, I know some of you TiVo folks will try to find any excuse to wish for the new DirecTiVo to become reality. I have no problem at all if such new TiVo box becomes available soon, just that you should know the numbers show that most TiVo subs aren't that fanatic about TiVo, they have no problem switching to a different brand.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Brennok said:


> I know but one can wish. I don't really consider not being able to use the interactive channels though core functionality but then again I never was able to use them when I had Directv.


They could completely remove the interactive features, and I probably wouldn't even notice lol


----------



## Jeremy W

Brennok said:


> I don't really consider not being able to use the interactive channels though core functionality


Many people wouldn't, but DirecTV does.


----------



## bdcottle

If Tivo can fix the MPEG4 audio dropout problem, that alone would be reason enough for me to jump ship. I would love to hear all of a program again. It's been about 6 months for me. My current dropout rate in 10 min ave. If anybody can fix it I think Tivo can. Directv is a sat co. Tivo is a dvr co.


----------



## smiddy

bidger said:


> Kinda contradicts the purpose of those huge TiVo blow-ups outside the center you featured in your photos. TiVo used those to draw folks to them, then when folks arrived and excitedly asked, "What do you have for us TiVo?!", their response was "Our business card. Take a couple and feel free to distribute them. We're here to network".


Yep, I'm not saying I'm a fanboy, but the misses was excited to find something out as she loved the HR10-250, so I was hoping to get her some news, but nope, nadda.  The toy though my daughter loves it, see below.


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> Regardless though, I know some of you TiVo folks will try to find any excuse to wish for the new DirecTiVo to become reality.


I could say something about the above, but I digress.



Brennok said:


> At this point I think for some users Tivo could release a base DirecTivo that records HD and they would be happy. Then over time they could patch in the other features like the interactive channels similar to how they patched in dual tuners originally.





Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV would never allow them to release a DVR with core functionality missing.





Brennok said:


> I know but one can wish. *I don't really consider not being able to use the interactive channels though core functionality but then again I never was able to use them when I had Directv.*


Agreed! There are features I consider to be part of a DVR's "core functionality" missing from the HR2x, and others which I would consider "core functionality" LONG BEFORE interactive features.

The only Interactive feature that I really even use is not intentional (Local On The 8's). I think it's a BRILLIANT idea... and the first use of interactivity on DirecTV that I really like... but I probably wouldn't even miss it if it was gone... like I would other functions that I miss on the HR2x today (and yes, there would be HR2x features I would miss on the TiVo as well).

However, I do agree with Jeremy, as DirecTV appears to love their interactive features, so I suspect that any TiVo release will come AFTER TiVo incorporates them into the release firmware.




smiddy said:


> The toy though my daughter loves it, see below.


AWESOME! 

~Alan


----------



## smiddy

Alan Gordon said:


> It'd be interesting to know what Dave Zatz found out:
> 
> Zatz Not Funny
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Who's jealous of Smiddy's kids...


Those look kewl...see the photo of my daughter, she's pretty happy.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Just watching the Tivo opening video on youtube-I miss the Tivo sounds lol Actually making me consider purchasing a Series 3 and jumping ship lol


----------



## jacmyoung

smiddy said:


> Those look kewl...see the photo of my daughter, she's pretty happy.


Now that little cute face almost convinced me to buy a TiVo, she was that good


----------



## carl6

Smiddy, I think I see a new avatar in your near future.


----------



## smiddy

carl6 said:


> Smiddy, I think I see a new avatar in your near future.


Perhaps, she's a cutie for sure. I have another week of this one before I change.


----------



## wingrider01

Syzygy said:


> I understand. But if, one day, you receive a postcard from TiVo saying "I'm ready, at long last. Will you marry me?" ... I'm sure you'll seriously consider taking the big step.


yup to the shredder with the postcard....


----------



## hdtvfan0001

smiddy said:


> Yep, I'm not saying I'm a fanboy, but the misses was excited to find something out as she loved the HR10-250, so I was hoping to get her some news, but nope, nadda.  The toy though my daughter loves it, see below.


Geee....your cute daughter is holding something that looks awefully familar. 

Two of those fuzzy guys are sitting right here too.

It was, however, somewhat disappointing to make it all the way to the Tivo meeting rooms (yes....per Stuart, it was indeed a "healthy walk distance"), and then manage to get into the room and look around, meet and greet 5 different people in the Tivo area, and other than giveaway items....look at empty display shelves and walls with nothing more than logos.

They actually had adjoining rooms...and other than a number of boxes in the back...not much more to see.

If you read between the lines of what we were told...and looking at the rooms that were there (and probably cost them a pretty penny to reserve at CES and have the large Tivochair outside out front for promotion)...it seemed pretty obvious that they originally intended to have things to present or at least view, but the timing probably didn't work out.

Our DBSTalkers on site made it a point to get into this area, and were disappointed to find as little as we did.


----------



## tuff bob

Alan Gordon said:


> Yeah, I miss the old TiVo remote as well. One that actually worked the first time you hit the button... and it had better RF capability too! ~Alan


Especially now they have that stupid channel 1. It's about impossible to get the HR to accept a -1 entry first time, normally it sticks at XXX- and then seems to ignore the press for a while, then it finally sees the 1 and then switches to channel 1 which is very annoying, since it starts ignoring keypresses while it loads up the channel 1 app.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> What is Wrong with wanting to see what TiVo has to offer us in the form of a New DIRECTIVO DVR with some great features from TiVo and some great features and functionality from the DIRECTV PLATFORM?


I already said there was nothing wrong with that had you read my one post earlier.



> I was supposedly the First Person to Buy & Activate an HR10-250 DIRECTIVO DVR back on April 12, 2004. I loved TiVo and could be considered by many to be a TiVoHolic.
> 
> However, since then I have seen great strides in the Directv HR2X Series of DVRs and I am no longer OBSESSED with having to have a DIRECTIVO DVR. I have since retired 2 of my HR10-250s.
> 
> However, when the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR comes out I will buy it and play with it and see how it performs.
> 
> Doesn't mean I don't still like my HR2X DVRs as they still need some improvement and enhancements which are coming (as was pointed out when we talked to Directv Personnel at CES during the past 2 days).
> 
> DIRECTV is doing a great job of improving and enhancing their own HR2X DVR but there have been problems along the way just as TiVo had with the HR10-250. I went thru a myriad of birth pangs with that device but I stuck with it and it turned into a great DVR.
> 
> Well, the same thing is happening with the HR2X DVRs and people are not happy until it is perfected. That takes time.
> 
> I will be very curious to see how this Hybrid Box works When and If it comes out.
> 
> Bottom Line: I just want to be able to Watch What I Want, When I Want To Watch It. I am very close to being able to do that right now with my 6 HR2X DVRs but I am anticipating that they will continue to get better and then maybe the next New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR may just be a Moot Point unless it can deliver alot more Features and Functionality without breaking the bank.


You are one of those I called "not that fanatic about TiVo" persons then, again had you read my one post earlier, you wouldn't have wasted so much time trying to refute my comments because we are in agreement


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Folks, please take this sort of discussion to private messages. This is an anticipation thread about TiVo, not about the conversation between jacmyoung and richierich.


----------



## bidger

smiddy said:


> Yep, I'm not saying I'm a fanboy, but the misses was excited to find something out as she loved the HR10-250, so I was hoping to get her some news, but nope, nadda.


Well, I know you didn't go there as a "fanboy", but someone looking to cull info, both for yourself and those us with an interest @ DBSTalk. I'm not one of those who'll throw down the money as soon as the unit's available, but I would like to know more about it. It's a widely held notion that TiVo wishes to release at least two new units sometime this year; the Best Buy-exclusive standalone units and the DirecTV-integrated. I can understand not having those units, but how about the COX cable unit to display? It's four and a half years since they signed on and they're still in beta?! It's one thing to work at your own pace, but at some point it becomes do or die. Swag only gets you so far. There were companies there that had cable cards (Ceton), networked cable card solutions (Silicon Dust), even 1080p satellite delivery (XStreamHD). The notion that all TiVo could just do a "meet and greet", for those that agreed to NDA, doesn't reflect well on them, IMO.

ETA: Your little girl is seven shades of adorable, btw.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

bidger, I agree with you. That's not consistent with a company that wants to sell to customers, is it? It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> bidger, I agree with you. That's not consistent with a company that wants to sell to customers, is it? It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


That's literally the impression we were left with as we walked away from the CES on site meeting rooms.


----------



## bidger

Stuart Sweet said:


> bidger, I agree with you. That's not consistent with a company that wants to sell to customers, is it? It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


Which could very well be what they want to do, Stu. I'm sure that for them dealing only with software would definitely lighten their load. But then you consider the fiasco that was LiquidTV. I'm not sure who thought that TiVo would have an inroad into the PC DVR market, given the fact that there are so many other free and low cost options, but that's already been left by the wayside, AFAIK. And there were the issues when TiVo was first deployed on the Comcast boxes, so it's not always easy porting your software to other companies boxes.

TiVotees are calling for a new model with Tru2way...etc., cable lingo I don't really comprehend.  S3 owners who didn't have a lifetime unit to transfer over have, or will, come to the end of their initial three year agreement. If a subscription free PC solution is available that will cost them about the same as re-upping with TiVo, they might jump. Landscape is changing and it'll be interesting to see how TiVo handles it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The only plus that came from our on site visits at CES is that we feel that it is indeed no longer a matter of "if"....rather..."when and what".

There was plenty of confirmation there is work in progress, but little in terms of any target/release dates.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> bidger, I agree with you. That's not consistent with a company that wants to sell to customers, is it? It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


That's precisely the TiVo _Harvard Business School_ case study "mistake" I'd write up.

If instead of trying to have it both ways, TiVo simply produced "free" branded software for Comcast, Cablevision, DirecTV, Dish, et al., they could today be charging each company who wanted to use it a modest fee per DVR household and making money hand over fist... and it would have been a win/win/win for TiVo/MSO's/subscribers, IMHO.

I have no idea what today's numbers are, but 40 million current US DVR households sounds about right. If 90% were TiVo, at $1/month/home, that would amount to over $400 million in annual revenue for them. I think that's about triple what they're projected to report as service and technology revenues in 2009.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


ComcasTiVo
DirecTiVo
CoxTiVo (doesn't exactly have the same amount of pizazz, does it?)

Not to mention others as well...

Sounds to me like you're absolutely right...

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

Steve said:


> That's precisely the TiVo _Harvard Business School_ case study "mistake" I'd write up.
> 
> If instead of trying to have it both ways, TiVo simply produced "free" branded software for Comcast, Cablevision, DirecTV, Dish, et al., they could today be charging each company who wanted to use it a modest fee per DVR household and making money hand over fist... and it would have been a win/win/win for TiVo/MSO's/subscribers, IMHO.
> 
> I have no idea what today's numbers are, but 40 million current US DVR households sounds about right. If 90% were TiVo, at $1/month/home, that would amount to over $400 million in annual revenue for them. I think that's about triple what they're projected to report as service and technology revenues in 2009.


I'm confident that if TiVo had not been so arrogant in the early days of it's evolution that things would be much different today than they are.


----------



## jacmyoung

The reason TiVo can't get $1/mo. from those content carriers is because no one wants to pay TiVo the $1/mo. when they can provide their own DVRs. DirecTV is no exception.

It has been my opinion DirecTV announced the new DirecTiVo DVR at a "significantly higher fee" on 9/3/08, one day before the 9/4/08 TiVo. v. E* hearing, to put pressure on E* to accept an unfavorable term in a settlement with TiVo, for competitive reason. That was a good move on the DirecTV part. Of course E* did not settle with TiVo.

Since then DirecTV never again mentioned this new DVR. I say DirecTV will continue to delay this thing because there is no indication DirecTV wants to pay a "significantly higher fee", at least not the first one to pay such high fee. They hoped E* would but it did not happen.

I have been with DirecTV for two years now, paying the least amount of DVR fee for 4 HDDVRs with MRV and all the goodies. The $20 total monthly hardware fee can't be any lower anywhere else for 4 HDDVRs. You don't get to keep the fees so competitive by paying other companies "significantly higher fees". *It is my anticipation* that DirecTV will not likely start to pay such higher fees unless they are forced to.


----------



## Doug Brott

"significantly higher fees" can be passed on to the consumer which is what many of us think will be the case. DIRECTV may in fact get the same $$ from TiVo per receiver that they get for their own receivers .. The upcharge may be something that goes fully to TiVo .. I just don't think anyone really knows any details at this point, but certainly I don't see how "significantly higher fees" really play a part in this between DIRECTV & TiVo. It's already agreed to and water under the bridge.


----------



## kevinturcotte

Stuart Sweet said:


> bidger, I agree with you. That's not consistent with a company that wants to sell to customers, is it? It's a lot more like a company that wants to sell branded software to other companies.


That is what they REALLY want anyway, isn't it?


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> ... It's already agreed to and water under the bridge.


But the water will not reach subs' spigots if the new DVR is not rolled out

I am not saying I do not see DirecTV DVR fees to go up, just that if they roll out this new TiVo DVR our fees will go up more.


----------



## Albie

kevinturcotte said:


> That is what they REALLY want anyway, isn't it?


If you look at the statements from Tom Rodgers over the last 2-3 ears I think TIVO is desperately looking to get out of the hardware business and focus solely on producing software and middleware and the business of mining and selling of viewer preference data. They find themselves in something of a bind as they do not yet have any massive rollouts of their software (Comcast, Cox, DirecTV) and are still somewhat encumbered by having to support their own hardware.


----------



## smiddy

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Geee....your cute daughter is holding something that looks awefully familar.
> 
> Two of those fuzzy guys are sitting right here too.
> 
> It was, however, somewhat disappointing to make it all the way to the Tivo meeting rooms (yes....per Stuart, it was indeed a "healthy walk distance"), and then manage to get into the room and look around, meet and greet 5 different people in the Tivo area, and other than giveaway items....look at empty display shelves and walls with nothing more than logos.
> 
> They actually had adjoining rooms...and other than a number of boxes in the back...not much more to see.
> 
> If you read between the lines of what we were told...and looking at the rooms that were there (and probably cost them a pretty penny to reserve at CES and have the large Tivochair outside out front for promotion)...it seemed pretty obvious that they originally intended to have things to present or at least view, but the timing probably didn't work out.
> 
> Our DBSTalkers on site made it a point to get into this area, and were disappointed to find as little as we did.


She enjoyed talking to you last night! She's such a darling...I am glad you got home safely. Now hopefully this evening I can get to work on more writing of our adventure.


----------



## Albie

jacmyoung said:


> But the water will not reach subs' spigots if the new DVR is not rolled out
> 
> I am not saying I do not see DirecTV DVR fees to go up, just that if they roll out this new TiVo DVR our fees will go up more.


I think the speculation is that the TIVO service/box will be an added charge per unit that only people who want the TIVO software/box will be required to pay over and above the current DVR fee.


----------



## Albie

smiddy said:


> She enjoyed talking to you last night! She's such a darling...I am glad you got home safely. Now hopefully this evening I can get to work on more *writing of our adventure*.


The adventures of HDTVfan, Smiddy and RichieRich? Certainly there has to be a punchline in there somewhere

Seriously I am eagerly awaiting reading your about your experiences and impressions of this years show.


----------



## jacmyoung

Albie said:


> I think the speculation is that the TIVO service/box will be an added charge per unit that only people who want the TIVO software/box will be required to pay over and above the current DVR fee.


If so there will be less people out of the already dwindling DirecTiVo subs that will be willing to upgrade to such a new TiVo DVR, and this might just be one more reason why DirecTV is not in any hurry to roll out this thing.


----------



## Richierich

Albie said:


> The adventures of HDTVfan, Smiddy and RichieRich? Certainly there has to be a punchline in there somewhere
> 
> Seriously I am eagerly awaiting reading your about your experiences and impressions of this years show.


It was Great but alot of What Happens In Vegas Stays In Vegas mainly because when you wake up from a hangover you can't remember everything you did!!! :lol:

The CES Stuff we can share for the most part.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> If so there will be less people out of the already dwindling DirecTiVo subs that will be willing to upgrade to such a new TiVo DVR, and this might just be one more reason why DirecTV is not in any hurry to roll out this thing.


It doesn't matter if DirecTV is in a hurry or not since Tivo's not ready.


----------



## Richierich

From sources that can't be disclosed, they are not even ready to test it because of the Slowness of TiVo to Implement their side of the equation.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Albie said:


> The adventures of HDTVfan, Smiddy and RichieRich? Certainly there has to be a punchline in there somewhere
> 
> Seriously I am eagerly awaiting reading your about your experiences and impressions of this years show.


That'll be in the "other thread" with the collaborative report.

The Tivo room visit was a disappointment, as they had virtually nothing to see. After all the hype and anticipation, not to mention using my head as a battering ram to get in - it was much less than expected.

As for the overall show - it was very informative on many (other) fronts.


smiddy said:


> She enjoyed talking to you last night! She's such a darling...I am glad you got home safely. Now hopefully this evening I can get to work on more writing of our adventure.


Smiddy's daughter is quite charming on the phone.

Glad to see the Tivo Squishie is headed to a nice home with her.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> I'm confident that if TiVo had not been so arrogant in the early days of it's evolution that things would be much different today than they are.


That may be written on TiVo's tombstone in the not too distant future...


----------



## Richierich

DIRECTV should have bought them 2 or 3 years ago and why is a Mystery even to the DIRECTV EMPLOYEES I talked to at CES!!!

It would have been cheaper than a lawsuit settlement!!! :lol:


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> DIRECTV should have bought them 2 or 3 years ago and why is a Mystery even to the DIRECTV EMPLOYEES I talked to at CES!!!
> 
> It would have been cheaper than a lawsuit settlement!!! :lol:


What lawsuit settlement? There will not be any lawsuit or settlement between TiVo and DirecTV, they have an agreement not to sue, also DirecTV bought ReplayTV for almost nothing. There is no way TiVo dares to sue DirecTV for infringement.

DirecTV employees of course will say it was TiVo's fault. Do you really expect them to say DirecTV just wants to drag it out?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> What lawsuit settlement? There will not be any lawsuit or settlement between TiVo and DirecTV, they have an agreement not to sue, also DirecTV bought ReplayTV for almost nothing. There is no way TiVo dares to sue DirecTV for infringement.


Tivo's plenty engaged with the Dish folks in court for some time now, and DirecTV crafted and consummated a partner agreement - avoiding all that mess.

I guess the point was that had they bought the Tivo company, not only would that agreement and any commitments related to it be less costly in the long run, but they would also be in the drivers seat on patent infringement suits toward other technology integrators.

Woulda....coulda....shoulda....


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Tivo's plenty engaged with the Dish folks in court for some time now, and DirecTV crafted and consummated a partner agreement - avoiding all that mess.
> 
> I guess the point was that had they bought the Tivo company, not only would that agreement and any commitments related to it be less costly in the long run, but they would also be in the drivers seat on patent infringement suits toward other technology integrators.
> 
> Woulda....coulda....shoulda....


Is there ever an estimate on how much DirecTV has spent on TiVo related services so far?


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Tivo's plenty engaged with the Dish folks in court for some time now, and DirecTV crafted and consummated a partner agreement - avoiding all that mess.
> 
> I guess the point was that had they bought the Tivo company, not only would that agreement and any commitments related to it be less costly in the long run, but they would also be in the drivers seat on patent infringement suits toward other technology integrators.
> 
> Woulda....coulda....shoulda....


And Yes They Could Be Jerking Dish's Chain Right Now!!!

Can't believe they didn't do it years ago when the stock was cheap!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Is there ever an estimate on how much DirecTV has spent on TiVo related services so far?


Not exactly...but public presentations indicated some real $$$ (more than $6 Million in 9 months last year) have already been spent on the DirecTV Tivobox software side. No one publically knows the total amount to date.


----------



## Richierich

jacmyoung said:


> What lawsuit settlement? There will not be any lawsuit or settlement between TiVo and DirecTV, they have an agreement not to sue, also DirecTV bought ReplayTV for almost nothing. There is no way TiVo dares to sue DirecTV for infringement.
> 
> DirecTV employees of course will say it was TiVo's fault. Do you really expect them to say DirecTV just wants to drag it out?


You missed my whole point which HDTVFAN001 pointed out.

You buy TiVo then you avoid a Lawsuit and enjoy any benefits of a Lawsuit with Dish.

Even the Directv Employees I have spoken with thought that it would be a Done Deal but it never happened and they could have bought it for cheap!!!


----------



## loudo

richierich said:


> DIRECTV should have bought them 2 or 3 years ago and why is a Mystery even to the DIRECTV EMPLOYEES I talked to at CES!!!
> 
> It would have been cheaper than a lawsuit settlement!!! :lol:


That may be a twinkle in the eye of DirecTV, maybe they are just waiting for the value of TIVO to drop.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> You missed my whole point which HDTVFAN001 pointed out.
> 
> You buy TiVo then you avoid a Lawsuit and enjoy any benefits of a Lawsuit with Dish.
> 
> Even the Directv Employees I have spoken with thought that it would be a Done Deal but it never happened and they could have bought it for cheap!!!


How cheap? Consider that TiVo had a poison pill.


----------



## Richierich

loudo said:


> That may be a twinkle in the eye of DirecTV, maybe they are just waiting for the value of TIVO to drop.


The Value of TiVo Stock had dropped almost out of sight and it was a Steal and what were they thinking.

I even spoke to a Directv person who acknowledged the same thing and he said he was amazed that Directv didn't gobble up TiVo but now it is alot more expensive to do.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

In any case...the Tivobox is still on the radar...


----------



## Doug Brott

richierich said:


> You missed my whole point which HDTVFAN001 pointed out.
> 
> You buy TiVo then you avoid a Lawsuit and enjoy any benefits of a Lawsuit with Dish.
> 
> Even the Directv Employees I have spoken with thought that it would be a Done Deal but it never happened and they could have bought it for cheap!!!


Seems like a plan on the surface, but remember, DIRECTV & TiVo now have agreements through 2015 with an option to extend that to 2018 .. It's a significant point in time. Bottom line, DIRECTV might decide that they want to buy TiVo at some point, but simply put - they don't have to do that.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In any case...the Tivobox is still on the radar...


That is the Good News but the Bad News is that the RADAR extends way way out into the Future where Vaporware exists and I HOPE that it is MUCH more than that.

It would seem to as they have jointly spent alot of money so far but we have nothing to show for it at this time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Seems like a plan on the surface, but remember, DIRECTV & TiVo now have agreements through 2015 with an option to extend that to 2018 .. It's a significant point in time. Bottom line, DIRECTV might decide that they want to buy TiVo at some point, but simply put - they don't have to do that.


All so very true.

It was nice to hear the Tivo folks at CES tell us "2010", but until we see some tangible prototype....its TBD (to be determined)...


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It was nice to hear the Tivo folks at CES tell us "2010", but until we see some tangible prototype....its TBD (to be determined)...


After hdtvfanooo1 & smiddy walked away from the Booth I was still engaged in a conversation with a Directv person who stated something very interesting. He said you may not see it until after 2010 which disappointed me but then with the reasoning he gave which I can not divulge at this time I could understand why he said what he said.

So we can Speculate all we want to but until we actually know the DVR is being tested we will all just be discussing VAPORWARE at this point in time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> So we can Speculate all we want to but until we actually know the DVR is being tested we will all just be discussing VAPORWARE at this point in time.


Agreed. Speculation is all we have still at this point.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Agreed. Speculation is all we have still at this point.


I kinda thought that's what this thread was all about...speculating about the possibilities of the upcoming DirecTiVo...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> I kinda thought that's what this thread was all about...speculating about the possibilities of the upcoming DirecTiVo...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> 
> Mike


Yup...and what we learned at CES is that we have little new from there to add to that effort here *at this time*.


----------



## Richierich

MicroBeta said:


> I kinda thought that's what this thread was all about...speculating about the possibilities of the upcoming DirecTiVo...I'm just sayin' :grin:
> Mike


Yes and Ain't It Fun To Speculate & Postulate & Pontificate but right now I think it is closer to Vaporware than Reality and I hope that changes soon.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All so very true.
> 
> It was nice to hear the Tivo folks at CES tell us "2010", but until we see some tangible prototype....its TBD (to be determined)...





richierich said:


> Yes and Ain't It Fun To Speculate & Postulate & Pontificate but right now I think it is closer to Vaporware than Reality and I hope that changes soon.


I think 2010 is really unlikely, folks. Just my guess, but without even a prototype to show, do you really think they'll get it together this year?

Rich, I don't know if it's really vaporware... you may be right though. My money is just on it coming out so late that no one cares.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think 2010 is really unlikely, folks. Rich, I don't know if it's really vaporware... you may be right though. My money is just on it coming out so late that no one cares.


There is certainly some truth in what you speak.. on all those fronts.


----------



## carl6

richierich said:


> He said you may not see it until after 2010


Look at the positive side, it gives everyone more time to speculate :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

carl6 said:


> Look at the positive side, it gives everyone more time to speculate :lol:


!rolling


----------



## Richierich

Doug Brott said:


> You are likely to be closer than me .. I said a quarter late (for sure) .. and we're already into that time period now. With the DIRECTiVo a no show for a second year now .. I'm ready to jump on Stuart's bandwagon and call it Q1/2011. That's a LONG LONG time. DIRECTV has some exciting things coming up that may simply make the TiVo moot.


Well, from what I heard at CES and not from the TiVo Booth is that it will be more like Q2 2011 if even by then. And that is from someone who is very knowledgeable about these things, trust me and I was the only one around to hear it but he stated it twice in our conversation with some other interesting reasoning behind it that I can't share at this time.

When someone tells me something Off The Record and asks for Confidentiality then that is exactly what they will get as Libras are very Loyal and True to their Word. 

Also, this statement from Ken_F backs up in essence what I heard:

"TiVo knows the current software isn't good enough to make the DirecTiVo a success.

TiVo is not bringing the existing standalone/DirecTiVo platform to DirecTV. The existing platform is ten years old, and was originally designed for obsolete hardware. TiVo patched its software over and over to support new hardware and add new features, while preserving backward compatibility, and now they have a kludge that is difficult and expensive to maintain. No one understands everything that is in it, and few understand all the dependencies necessary to implement certain improvements. In that regard, their situation is similar in some respects to what Palm faced 3-5 years ago.

TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months. This software platform is free from most baggage, and much more suitable for new and future-generation hardware. This platform is able to integrate and support modern technologies developed for the web, and requires fewer resources to update and maintain. It's supposed to be nearing completion, although my sources are purposely vague on that. Few know exactly what it looks like, or what new features it adds, and those that do aren't talking. This is fact, not speculation.

I thought TiVo might debut the new platform on the "TiVo Premiere" standalone at CES, but that didn't happen."

This makes alot of sense as to why we are not even seeing a Directivo Prototype at the CES this year. Maybe at CES 2011. So I am with Stuart on this one that we will not see it before 2011.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think 2010 is really unlikely, folks. Just my guess, but without even a prototype to show, do you really think they'll get it together this year?
> 
> Rich, I don't know if it's really vaporware... you may be right though. My money is just on it coming out so late that no one cares.


I'm guessing that it will come out in Q2 2011 or later from what I heard but I could be wrong.

Also, I do think it is probably further along than Vaporware but as Ken states they are having to build it from the ground up and not just on the old chassis that they had before.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> I'm guessing that it will come out in Q2 2011 or later from what I heard but I could be wrong.
> 
> Also, I do think it is probably further along than Vaporware but as Ken states they are having to build it from the ground up and not just on the old chassis that they had before.


If this is even true (I doubt so), then TiVo only has itself to blame. Like Stuart said, 18 months from now it will be too late even if it is the most advanced DVR. It is not as if everyone else will be at a standstill without rolling out their new hardware.

The more likely scenario is TiVo has given up on being a DVR company. Rogers said himself lately that people should think TiVo as a DVR company to be history.


----------



## Richierich

jacmyoung said:


> If this is even true (I doubt so), then TiVo only has itself to blame. Like Stuart said, 18 months from now it will be too late even if it is the most advanced DVR. It is not as if everyone else will be at a standstill without rolling out their new hardware.


That is why Directv does not seem to be concerned at this time with the New DIRECTIVO DVR competing with their own HR2X Series of DVRs particularly with the HR24 DVR rolling out.

I did ask him why Directv would allow a Directivo DVR to come out and compete with their DVRs and he just laughed and said "Is it out, yet?" and "Will it be out and when?". So apparently they are not concerned at this stage of the game and then by then who knows how good the HR2X box will be and if it is anything like the HMC30 it will be lightning fast and a Great DVR to compete with anything out there.


----------



## NFLnut

richierich said:


> That is why Directv does not seem to be concerned at this time with the New DIRECTIVO DVR competing with their own HR2X Series of DVRs particularly with the HR24 DVR rolling out.
> 
> I did ask him why Directv would allow a Directivo DVR to come out and compete with their DVRs and he just laughed and said "Is it out, yet?" and "Will it be out and when?". So apparently they are not concerned at this stage of the game and then by then who knows how good the HR2X box will be and if it is anything like the HMC30 it will be lightning fast and a Great DVR to compete with anything out there.


I will end my 14 year relationship with DirecTV if they DON'T get the new DirecTiVo out sooner than later! This HR20 is absolutely THE worst consumer experience I have had in my life! I absolutely HATE this thing! My 8 year old DirecTiVo still works flawlessly, and this HR20 is a boat anchor! Button presses are either ignored or just slower than molasses. That's just the beginning of my frustration.

So they can act all smug in their "Is it out yet?" nonsense, but they will lose THIS customer if they don't get the new DirecTiVo out! TiVo's interface might be old in the tooth, and I hope they make some changes to it, but I seriously cannot tolerate this HR20 boat anchor a whole lot longer!


----------



## Richierich

Trust me as I am not a Directv FanBoy but I like alot of things that they do but I am not happy at the things that they are not doing.

However, I can truthfully say that after being at CES and seeing the Demos and talking to the Senior Directv Personnel and not just some Front Line Reps that they are going to offer so much stuff technologically advanced that you will be AMAZED!!!

I have waited for months to see alot of improvement and I have seen some but 2010 will present some DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS that I think will Silence alot of Negative Talk.

I am willing to BET on it!!!


----------



## Syzygy

richierich said:


> Senior Directv Personnel [implied] that they are going to offer so much stuff technologically advanced that you will be AMAZED!!!


What exactly is this amazing stuff? Will it improve the finding and recording of TV shows and series? If not, I don't care.

I don't want to access the Internet, download movies, or display photos or PC-based stuff using a DirecTV box. I don't want any frills at all.

I just want software that works. The HR2x has never worked satisfactorily, as everyone here knows well. I don't believe for a nanosecond that it ever will. I expect more feature creep, additional bugs, and no attention to previous bugs.

That's why the only thing worth waiting for is the MPEG-4 TiVo. No matter how long it takes.


----------



## Brennok

richierich said:


> Trust me as I am not a Directv FanBoy but I like alot of things that they do but I am not happy at the things that they are not doing.
> 
> However, I can truthfully say that after being at CES and seeing the Demos and talking to the Senior Directv Personnel and not just some Front Line Reps that they are going to offer so much stuff technologically advanced that you will be AMAZED!!!
> 
> I have waited for months to see alot of improvement and I have seen some but 2010 will present some DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS that I think will Silence alot of Negative Talk.
> 
> I am willing to BET on it!!!


For me to be amazed and willing to come back to Directv, it would take more then I can ever see them doing. This isn't due to any hatred of Directv, but more that I can't see them offering anything to compete with the setup I have and will have at the prices I pay.

It would also have to be significant for me to consider spending an extra $60 a month for Directv over Fios.


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> What exactly is this amazing stuff? Will it improve the finding and recording of TV shows and series? If not, I don't care.
> 
> I don't want to access the Internet, download movies, or display photos or PC-based stuff using a DirecTV box. I don't want any frills at all.
> 
> I just want software that works. The HR2x has never worked satisfactorily, as everyone here knows well. I don't believe for a nanosecond that it ever will. I expect more feature creep, additional bugs, and no attention to previous bugs.
> 
> That's why the only thing worth waiting for is the MPEG-4 TiVo. No matter how long it takes.


You know, I haven;t had any issues for recordings in probably 2 years.... I am not doubting you have had issues, but don't lump e in and say we all do....

What shows has your hr not recorded lately that a tivo would have?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> What exactly is this amazing stuff? Will it improve the finding and recording of TV shows and series? If not, I don't care.
> 
> I don't want to access the Internet, download movies, or display photos or PC-based stuff using a DirecTV box. I don't want any frills at all.
> 
> I just want software that works. *The HR2x has never worked satisfactorily, as everyone here knows well. * I don't believe for a nanosecond that it ever will. I expect more feature creep, additional bugs, and no attention to previous bugs.
> 
> That's why the only thing worth waiting for is the MPEG-4 TiVo. No matter how long it takes.


Then any new HD DVR offering may not be of value to you....if you are so dis-satisfied.

The global statement highlighted above in your post does not, in fact, represent "everybody". I know of dozens and dozens of people personally who would totally disagree with your view of the HR2x HD DVR world.

That's not to say your view of things is any less valuable, but these kinds of blanket statements are plain wrong.


----------



## Syzygy

I repeat, _"The HR2x has never worked satisfactorily, as everyone here knows well." _And the only likely solution is its eventual replacement with the MPEG-4 TiVo.

It's true that _"everyone knows"_ even if you think it works for *you *(not caring about constantly sluggish response, limited season passes, or searches that find both too much and too little at the same time) -- because there's no way you can be unaware that there are many others for whom it doesn't work satisfactorily.

I didn't list "missed recordings" within the parentheses, but that's a problem I myself have experienced, even recently. I've become accustomed to having to check the Guide every night to make sure the HR21 hasn't screwed up again. (I never have to check up on my HR10.)


----------



## LameLefty

Syzygy said:


> I repeat, _"The HR2x has never worked satisfactorily, as everyone here knows well." _And the only likely solution is its eventual replacement with the MPEG-4 TiVo.


This kind of blanket, totally subjective nonsense statement is absurd. Furthermore, if you have such faith in the Church of TiVo, whatever will you do when 2010 comes and goes without a sign of its resurrection?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

LameLefty said:


> This kind of blanket, totally subjective nonsense statement is absurd. Furthermore, if you have such faith in the Church of TiVo, whatever will you do when 2010 comes and goes without a sign of its resurrection?


While I refrain as best I can from using this kind of term in any post...in this case it fits like a glove.....

*+1*

The HR2x series has been very solid for many users, and for many years...so I guess not EVERYBODY would agree after all. My 3 HR2x boxes alone would strongly disagree, if they could talk themselves....so they let me do their talking for them.


----------



## tuff bob

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The HR2x series has been very solid for many users, and for many years...so I guess not EVERYBODY would agree after all. My 3 HR2x boxes alone would strongly disagree, if they could talk themselves....so they let me do their talking for them.


And there are people like me that try to change the channel to 2-1 by pressing two dash one and end up on the customer information channel most of the time because the box doesn't prioritize listening to key presses. so incredibly frustrating too!


----------



## jacmyoung

His wording does make it correct to argue it was not a blanket statement.

"The HR2X" (singular) clearly depicts his own DVR, and since he has been complaining about it to everyone, it is reasonable to say everyone knows well his DVR is bad.

I don't know if he ever replaced the hardware to try to fix it, therefore I can't agree that it can never be fixed. Sometimes it may not even be the DVR's fault, incorrect wiring can cause problems such as not grounding the cables propoerly.

The HR2Xs do suffer slow remote response issues, I think it is fair to say everyone knows this problem. This IS a blanket statement BTW.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think we can say with some confidence that Syzygy will be a lot happier when/if the new TiVo product comes out, and that he won't be happy with his HR2x. That's what choice is about and I respect his choice.

As for jacmyoung, I can only say that not everyone feels the HR2x has remote response issues. I know plenty of people do but not everyone does.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> I think we can say with some confidence that Syzygy will be a lot happier when/if the new TiVo product comes out, and that he won't be happy with his HR2x. That's what choice is about and I respect his choice.
> 
> As for jacmyoung, I can only say that not everyone feels the HR2x has remote response issues. I know plenty of people do but not everyone does.


Both fair statements IMHO as well.

Thanks for leveling the discussion.


----------



## Syzygy

LameLefty said:


> This kind of blanket, totally subjective nonsense statement is absurd. Furthermore, if you have such faith in the Church of TiVo, whatever will you do when 2010 comes and goes without a sign of its resurrection?


What's "subjective" is a view that the HR2x works satisfactorily *in general* just because you yourself don't perceive any faults in it. What's irrational is the need to deny those well-publicized faults repeatedly, as if the denials, repeated often enough, will make the faults go away.

Whatever will I do when 2010 comes and goes without a sign of TiVo's resurrection? (Well put, btw.) I'll wait some more, putting up with my disobedient HR21 and somewhat content with my reliable HR10 even after D* steals away with the last of the MPEG-2 HD channels.


----------



## Syzygy

jacmyoung said:


> ... I don't know if he ever replaced the hardware to try to fix it, therefore I can't agree that it can never be fixed. Sometimes it may not even be the DVR's fault, incorrect wiring can cause problems such as not grounding the cables properly.
> 
> The HR2Xs do suffer *slow remote response* issues, I think it is fair to say everyone knows this problem. This IS a blanket statement BTW.


Thank you for that, jacmyoung.

I believe you'll agree that, even if they're not aware of it, everyone has the other two problems that I grouped with sluggish response: limited *season passes*, and *searches* that find both too much and too little at the same time.

None of those faults can be fixed, IMO, by replacing the hardware. However, 6 weeks after getting my Mexican HR21, it was replaced with an Indonesian HR21 because of (1) spontaneous restarts triggered by the TV going on and (2) a dim and fuzzy HD picture. (Interestingly, the CSR wanted to deflect blame for the bad picture, but quickly scheduled a replacement when told of the spontaneous restarts.)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

*END OF LINE.*

This is not an HR2x complaint thread. I've let it go on long enough. If one of you wants to start one elsewhere, that's fine. This is not that thread.

Next one's an infraction, I promise.


----------



## Doug Brott

NFLnut said:


> I will end my 14 year relationship with DirecTV if they DON'T get the new DirecTiVo out sooner than later! This HR20 is absolutely THE worst consumer experience I have had in my life! I absolutely HATE this thing! My 8 year old DirecTiVo still works flawlessly, and this HR20 is a boat anchor! Button presses are either ignored or just slower than molasses. That's just the beginning of my frustration.
> 
> So they can act all smug in their "Is it out yet?" nonsense, but they will lose THIS customer if they don't get the new DirecTiVo out! TiVo's interface might be old in the tooth, and I hope they make some changes to it, but I seriously cannot tolerate this HR20 boat anchor a whole lot longer!


Some of us are now speculating Q1/2011 .. I guess it depends on your definitions of "sooner" as to whether that means you will end your relationship with DIRECTV or not.


----------



## Syzygy

Before CES, I thought Q1/2011 was a pessimistic view; now, unfortunately, it seems optimistic to me. 

But I'll still wait, because my reliable HR10 (attached to a 30" HDTV and capable of receiving a couple of HD locals) provides some satisfaction.


----------



## Richierich

NFLnut said:


> So they can act all smug in their "Is it out yet?" nonsense, but they will lose THIS customer if they don't get the new DirecTiVo out!


This Gentleman was not being SMUG but being very honest and upfront with me and realistically stating when he thought it might be out.

He even does not know for sure as he has not seen the Directivo DVR to start testing with it. It was just an Educated Guess on his part and I was thankful that he shared that opinion with me.

I also want to point out that He did not have to Share any of this knowledge with me or hdtvfan0001 or smiddy. He was very polite, forthcoming and seemed very interested that we were there and had alot of knowledge about the DVR and it's functionality.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> This Gentleman was not being SMUG but being very honest and upfront with me and realistically stating when he thought it might be out.
> 
> He even does not know for sure as he has not seen the Directivo DVR to start testing with it. It was just an Educated Guess on his part and I was thankful that he shared that opinion with me.


I thought the new hardware should be provided by DirecTV, not TiVo, so if he did not have the hardware to start testing yet, whose fault was that?

Please, you did not mean had the hardware been ready for TiVo, TiVo would not have some kind of firmware ready at least for testing by now?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I thought the new hardware should be provided by DirecTV, not TiVo, so if he did not have the hardware to start testing yet, whose fault was that?
> 
> Please, you did not mean had the hardware been ready for TiVo, TiVo would not have some kind of firmware ready at least for testing by now?


It is a joint partnership....DirecTV will specifiy and/or provide the hardware component, and Tivo will provide the firmware/software component.

Both parties will need to be near completion before any prototype can be tested, and then put into production - they have not reached that stage yet, or so we were told by *both* the Tivo and DirecTV folks at the CES.


----------



## Richierich

I was referring to Directv providing them with the hardware and then they apply their firmware/software and after testing it to their satisfaction, they hand it off to Directv for their testing.


----------



## Syzygy

richierich said:


> I'm guessing that it will come out in Q2 2011 or later from what I heard but I could be wrong...





richierich said:


> This Gentleman was not being SMUG but being very honest and upfront with me and realistically stating when he thought it might be out.
> 
> He even does not know for sure as he has not seen the Directivo DVR to start testing with it. It was just an Educated Guess on his part and I was thankful that he shared that opinion with me.
> 
> I also want to point out that He did not have to Share any of this knowledge with me or hdtvfan0001 or smiddy. He was very polite, forthcoming and seemed very interested that we were there and had alot of knowledge about the DVR and it's functionality.


Putting these two widely separated posts together, I'd like to assume that "This Gentleman" was the source for "it [the new TiVo] will come out in Q2 2011 or later."

Is my assumption correct?


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Please, you did not mean had the hardware been ready for TiVo, TiVo would not have some kind of firmware ready at least for testing by now?


Look at the Tivo Premiere box, which is their own hardware. Still vaporware, and you can't blame DirecTV on that one.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Putting these two widely separated posts together, I'd like to assume that "This Gentleman" was the source for "it [the new TiVo] will come out in Q2 2011 or later."
> 
> Is my assumption correct?


I'll give you my reason for now saying Q1/2011 .. It's been 1 year since we first thought that there MIGHT be something from TiVo on the DIRECTV front. Seemed to be almost a given that there would be something at CES this year. NADA other than "we still expect it in 2010" and it seems that was kinda iffy in how it was said (based on posters, not first hand experience) .. I don't know when it will be out, but just based on all of the intel, 12 months from now seems a lot more likely now than it did 2-3 weeks ago.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> I'll give you my reason for now saying Q1/2011 .. It's been 1 year since we first thought that there MIGHT be something from TiVo on the DIRECTV front. Seemed to be almost a given that there would be something at CES this year. NADA other than "we still expect it in 2010" and it seems that was kinda iffy in how it was said (based on posters, not first hand experience) .. I don't know when it will be out, but just based on all of the intel, 12 months from now seems a lot more likely now than it did 2-3 weeks ago.


I believe that based on our most recent direct information onsite at CES, your assessment is accurate and as up-to-date as can be.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> I was referring to Directv providing them with the hardware and then they apply their firmware/software and after testing it to their satisfaction, they hand it off to Directv for their testing.


Had DirecTV already handed them the new generation of hardware in the first place?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Had DirecTV already handed them the new generation of hardware in the first place?


I was with Rich onsite...and they simply did not tell us the answer to that question, nor would I have anticipated them to do so - that's part of the inner workings of the project, which they would typically not make "public" in any form.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Doug Brott said:


> I'll give you my reason for now saying Q1/2011 .. It's been 1 year since we first thought that there MIGHT be something from TiVo on the DIRECTV front. Seemed to be almost a given that there would be something at CES this year. NADA other than "we still expect it in 2010" and it seems that was kinda iffy in how it was said (based on posters, not first hand experience) .. I don't know when it will be out, but just based on all of the intel, 12 months from now seems a lot more likely now than it did 2-3 weeks ago.


My reasoning is simpler than that... presuming that everything TiVo's ever done has taken twice as long as the public expected, I looked at the year since the last announcement and doubled it


----------



## smiddy

NFLnut said:


> I will end my 14 year relationship with DirecTV if they DON'T get the new DirecTiVo out sooner than later! This HR20 is absolutely THE worst consumer experience I have had in my life! I absolutely HATE this thing! My 8 year old DirecTiVo still works flawlessly, and this HR20 is a boat anchor! Button presses are either ignored or just slower than molasses. That's just the beginning of my frustration.
> 
> So they can act all smug in their "Is it out yet?" nonsense, but they will lose THIS customer if they don't get the new DirecTiVo out! TiVo's interface might be old in the tooth, and I hope they make some changes to it, but I seriously cannot tolerate this HR20 boat anchor a whole lot longer!


How much longer are you willing to wait and I'll let you know if you will be leaving DirecTV.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Stuart Sweet said:


> My reasoning is simpler than that... presuming that everything TiVo's ever done has taken twice as long as the public expected, I looked at the year since the last announcement and doubled it


Both the Comcast Tivo project and Series 3 were over a year behind their original target release dates....so there is plenty of evidence to support your views too - that would make both you *and* Doug right on, despite different reasons.


----------



## loudo

The question is, "Are we close enough to say SOON". :hurah:


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I was with Rich onsite...and they simply did not tell us the answer to that question, nor would I have anticipated them to do so - that's part of the inner workings of the project, which they would typically not make "public" in any form.


Then why so many people blame TiVo for not making the new DVR ready? We don't even know if DirecTV ever made that new hardware ready for TiVo in the first place.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Then why so many people blame TiVo for not making the new DVR ready? We don't even know if DirecTV ever made that new hardware ready for TiVo in the first place.


Complex projects overshoot target dates all the time. When there are two parties involved, it makes it even more complex. I work in such an environment, and despite everyone's best efforts..the simply take longer than expected.

I don't point fingers....it just happens, even with the best efforts and best of intentions by all parties. I suspect the same may hold true in this case.


----------



## Richierich

I predict when the HR24 comes out you will not care any longer about the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR because it will satisfy alot of your complaints with one exception.

You will be so Happy and you will not be able to complain and that may cause a problem for you and others who like to constantly complain.

What if it works so Great that you no longer yearn for your Directivo???

What will you do then?

I believe you will have to seach hard to find something to complain about then and hopefully you will be very happy. Doesn't mean you can't still buy a Directivo and have both.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Complex projects overshoot target dates all the time. When there are two parties involved, it makes it even more complex. I work in such an environment, and despite everyone's best efforts..the simply take longer than expected.
> 
> I don't point fingers....it just happens, even with the best efforts and best of intentions by all parties. I suspect the same may hold true in this case.


All I am saying is, in this case people can't blame TiVo for the delay unless we are fairly certain DirecTV had already provided TiVo with the new generation of hardware. But if we simply take a look at the DirecTV server we have seen at the CES, it was still a "prototype", it is not unreasonable to speculate that maybe DirecTV has not made the new hardware ready for TiVo to seriously start to implement the new DirecTiVo DVR testing.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can not comment other that to say that I am "fairly certain."


----------



## Richierich

jacmyoung said:


> But if we simply take a look at the DirecTV server we have seen at the CES, it was still a "prototype", it is not unreasonable to speculate that maybe DirecTV has not made the new hardware ready for TiVo to seriously start to implement the new DirecTiVo DVR testing.


How do you know it was just a "Prototype"? I don't. We assumed that it was a Prototype but we don't know how close to being a Finished Product it is.

I would bet my "House" that TiVo has the Hardware and is now doing their job at creating the software but remember how long Directv has been perfecting this HR2X DVR (over 2 years) and do you think TiVo can start from the scratch and build a totally new system according to Directv Specs in less than the 2 years it has taken Directv. I for one do not think so.

I think it will be about the same timeline so that leaves us a year out. So I am looking to see it Q1 2011.


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> I predict when the HR24 comes out you will not care any longer about the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR because it will satisfy alot of your complaints with one exception.


I'm still recovering from the completion of a project at work, and quite frankly, I haven't cared to reply to many of the posts the last couple of days. Not to mention I've been busy debating which Series Links I need to delete to make room for "Southland", "24", "The Human Target", and "Caprica". 

HOWEVER, the above got my attention! Are you saying that the HR24 is a different animal than the HR20/21/22/23?

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm still recovering from the completion of a project at work, and quite frankly, I haven't cared to reply to many of the posts the last couple of days. Not to mention I've been busy debating which Series Links I need to delete to make room for "Southland", "24", "The Human Target", and "Caprica".
> 
> HOWEVER, the above got my attention! Are you saying that the HR24 is a different animal than the HR20/21/22/23?
> 
> ~Alan


Yes!!! With a much Better and Faster Chipset!!!


----------



## LameLefty

richierich said:


> I predict when the HR24 comes out you will not care any longer about the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR because it will satisfy alot of your complaints with one exception.
> 
> You will be so Happy and you will not be able to complain and that may cause a problem for you and others who like to constantly complain.
> 
> What if it works so Great that you no longer yearn for your Directivo???
> 
> What will you do then?
> 
> I believe you will have to seach hard to find something to complain about then and hopefully you will be very happy. Doesn't mean you can't still buy a Directivo and have both.


Watch your quotes there, Rich. I'm not Syzygy - he's the one pining for an MPEG4 TiVo, not me.


----------



## Richierich

LL, you are right. I wanted to grab the original quote from syzygy and not from you but the point is I think he will forget about alot of his complaints if this DVR does what I think it will do.

Sorry about that. I corrected my Post.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm still recovering from the completion of a project at work, and quite frankly, I haven't cared to reply to many of the posts the last couple of days. Not to mention I've been busy debating which Series Links I need to delete to make room for "Southland", "24", "The Human Target", and "Caprica".
> 
> HOWEVER, the above got my attention! Are you saying that the HR24 is a different animal than the HR20/21/22/23?
> 
> ~Alan





richierich said:


> Yes!!!


Of course...we know it will have a higher number , and be newer....but since we haven't actually seen one...that's about all we know for certain.

It's very safe to assume, however, that if its the "next generation" unit, it will contain some new elements of some kind, just like all previous version changed over time.


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> All I am saying is, in this case people can't blame TiVo for the delay unless we are fairly certain DirecTV had already provided TiVo with the new generation of hardware


We can't blame Tivo, a company whose name appears in the dictionary next to the word delay, without overwhelming evidence, but blaming DirecTV is fine. :nono2:

It's clear to anyone who is not a Tivotee/DirecTV basher that Tivo is at least mostly responsible for the delay, if not completely responsible.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> We can't blame Tivo, a company whose name appears in the dictionary next to the word delay, without overwhelming evidence, but blaming DirecTV is fine. :nono2:
> 
> It's clear to anyone who is not a Tivotee/DirecTV basher that Tivo is at least mostly responsible for the delay, if not completely responsible.


I guess without a joint and/or individual partner project plans in our hands...it would be impossible to *accurately* assess who is contributing to any delay.

Therefore any finger pointing in any direction is meaningless, without that data.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Therefore any finger pointing in any direction is meaningless, without that data.


Finger pointing by outsiders like us is meaningless in any situation, no matter how much data you have. But it's fun! :lol:


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> Finger pointing by outsiders like us is meaningless in any situation, no matter how much data you have.


I'd certainly have to agree with most of your post...the part above...


----------



## Syzygy

richierich said:


> I predict when the HR24 comes out you will not care any longer about the New MPEG-4 DIRECTIVO DVR because it will satisfy alot of your complaints with one exception.
> 
> You will be so Happy and you will not be able to complain and that may cause a problem for you and others who like to constantly complain.
> 
> What if it works so Great that you no longer yearn for your Directivo???
> 
> What will you do then?
> 
> I believe you will have to seach hard to find something to complain about then and hopefully you will be very happy. Doesn't mean you can't still buy a Directivo and have both.


Now that I know the "you" in the first sentence is me, I have to ask: What is that "one exception", Rich?

BTW, I'd love, love, love it if the D* software satisfied most of my complaints at some point. But seriously, folks, who among you expects them to fix almost all -- or even half -- of their outstanding problems?

(And, as I said recently, I don't care for spiffy features; I merely hope core DVR functionality will work reliably.)


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> (And, as I said recently, I don't care for spiffy features; I merely hope core DVR functionality will work reliably.)


I've been there with my 2 HR20-700's and HR21-200 for some time.

But the Tivobox firmware will be from Tivo, so it will be interesting to see how that all turns out, and how it satisfies the users preferring their product.


----------



## jacmyoung

Jeremy W said:


> Finger pointing by outsiders like us is meaningless in any situation, no matter how much data you have. But it's fun! :lol:


I don't think a DirecTV sub is an outsider in this discussion.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> I don't think a DirecTV sub is an outsider in this discussion.


I believe it was clear Jeremy referenced that WE were the outsiders.


----------



## jacmyoung

richierich said:


> LL, you are right. I wanted to grab the original quote from syzygy and not from you but the point is I think he will forget about alot of his complaints if this DVR does what I think it will do...


At the meantime he will have to live with his issues, but for how long? My guess is sooner than Q1/11 if the new DirecTiVo is at Q1/11?


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I believe it was clear Jeremy referenced that WE were the outsiders.


Just you know I am a DirecTV sub.


----------



## Nicholsen

Stuart Sweet said:


> My reasoning is simpler than that... presuming that everything TiVo's ever done has taken twice as long as the public expected, I looked at the year since the last announcement and doubled it


Stuart is probably right on this, which is very disappointing news.

That is nothing new in the software business. Anyone who doubts that should read the classic from the 70's, _The Mythical Man/Month_.


----------



## jacmyoung

Nicholsen said:


> Stuart is probably right on this, which is very disappointing news...


Stuart's 09/10 is a lot better than Q1/11. Unless I missed out on another announcement after 09/08.


----------



## Nicholsen

richierich said:


> Trust me as I am not a Directv FanBoy but I like alot of things that they do but I am not happy at the things that they are not doing.
> 
> However, I can truthfully say that after being at CES and seeing the Demos and talking to the Senior Directv Personnel and not just some Front Line Reps that they are going to offer so much stuff technologically advanced that you will be AMAZED!!!
> 
> I have waited for months to see alot of improvement and I have seen some but 2010 will present some DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS that I think will Silence alot of Negative Talk.
> 
> I am willing to BET on it!!!


richierich -

I greatly appreciate your posting from CES, which I think was generally "fair and balanced."

However, I don't think I there are any "features" that can be added to the HR series that are going to make me a believer.

I get most of my programing (other than movies, where the "season pass" logic, program descriptions, remote response and the 30 sec skip are largely irrelevant) on the HR 10-250.

Given the continuing "BRRRP" problems on network rebroadcast and the continuing problems with my HR21, I don't see the HR2X series working for me as a primary receiver in the future.

I have a good friend who has only only OTA (with a slightly better picture than D*), Hulu and NetFlix. His bill will be about $35 a month if he pays for a new TIVo. I will be at about $135 under the new price plan. For that kind of money, I want a "premium" DVR that I enjoy using and can brag about to my friends.


----------



## Brennok

Syzygy said:


> Now that I know the "you" in the first sentence is me, I have to ask: What is that "one exception", Rich?


I am curious too, but I would guess the fact that it isn't a Tivo.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Just you know I am a DirecTV sub.


I think you totally misunderstood Jeremy's post.

ANYONE other than DirecTV themselves and Tivo are outsiders to their partnered project. We all are.


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> Yes!!! With a much Better and Faster Chipset!!!





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Of course...we know it will have a higher number , and be newer....but since we haven't actually seen one...that's about all we know for certain.
> 
> It's very safe to assume, however, that if its the "next generation" unit, it will contain some new elements of some kind, just like all previous version changed over time.


I was under the assumption from Richie's posts, that he had more than a little reason to believe the HR24 will be an improvement over the previous generations of DirecTV HD-DVRs.... and not just from a speed perspective (which is definately needed), but also from a usability standpoint... something which interests me considerably.

Of course, it may be a "moo" point (it's what cows think) to me anyway... as even if the HR24 is far superior to the HR2xs, I can't see me ordering a DVR online from Value Electronics (or somwehere) to replace my two DirecTiVos and HR20/HR23.... but I'd still find it interesting to know either way... especially now when I'm considering whether to replace one of my SD-TiVos with an HD-DVR, or wait for the new TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## JBernardK

So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others. Then TiVo could get a bunch of shills to go on forums and claim that the box was great or that it will be RSN. They could post complicated "workarounds" for the features that don't work. You could even have a special forum for certain people to get updates before anyone else--call it "cutting" something or other.

Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I think you totally misunderstood Jeremy's post.
> 
> ANYONE other than DirecTV themselves and Tivo are outsiders to their partnered project. We all are.


Well then I must disagree. By virtue of DirecTV and TiVo not part of this discussion, if he was correct we will have to admit this discussion is meaningless, but fun, for that matter the whole forum is meaningless, but fun, since companies do not participate in the discussions, only the users.

I doubt you want to admit that


----------



## Richierich

Alan Gordon said:


> Of course, it may be a "moo" point (it's what cows think) to me anyway... as even if the HR24 is far superior to the HR2xs, I can't see me ordering a DVR online from Value Electronics (or somwehere) to replace my two DirecTiVos and HR20/HR23.... but I'd still find it interesting to know either way... especially now when I'm considering whether to replace one of my SD-TiVos with an HD-DVR, or wait for the new TiVo.
> ~Alan


I would wait until the HR24 comes out and then see if it delivers everything you want. Listen to others as they post about their opinion of the HR24's performance.

If it doesn't deliver the things you want or deem important, then wait until the Directivo box comes out which could be before 2011 but I would put my money on Q1 2011.

However, TiVo could get their act together and have it out before then so don't engrave the Q1 2011 in stone from either me or Stuart or whomever as it is all speculation.

I will buy an HR24 and a New Directivo DVR to see how they both perform.


----------



## Nicholsen

JBernardK said:


> So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others. Then TiVo could get a bunch of shills to go on forums and claim that the box was great or that it will be RSN. They could post complicated "workarounds" for the features that don't work. You could even have a special forum for certain people to get updates before anyone else--call it "cutting" something or other.
> 
> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.


This is my nomination for best post of 2010.


----------



## Richierich

JBernardK said:


> So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others.
> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.


I think TiVo is taking the Right Approach to getting it Right and that is why I think that it will take longer than anticipated because I used to a programmer and I know that Mr. Murphy is always lurking out there just waiting to cast his net over the project.

I think Directv rushed the HR23-700 to Market without waiting for the right chipset and that is why the HR2X Series is having alot of problems that can be eliminated by a Faster Better Chipset.

Will that eliminate all problems? No! But it will eliminate those problems caused by an overworked processor.


----------



## LameLefty

JBernardK said:


> So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others. Then TiVo could get a bunch of shills to go on forums and claim that the box was great or that it will be RSN. They could post complicated "workarounds" for the features that don't work. You could even have a special forum for certain people to get updates before anyone else--call it "cutting" something or other.


Who you calling a "shill"? 



> Come on, *If TiVo releases a new box *it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.


Fixed your post.

!rolling


----------



## Richierich

LameLefty said:


> Who you calling a "shill"?
> 
> Come on,* If *TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.
> 
> Fixed your post.
> 
> !rolling


Very Good Double L!!! :lol:


----------



## JBernardK

I was referring to the past so there is on "if".


----------



## Jeremy W

jacmyoung said:


> Well then I must disagree. By virtue of DirecTV and TiVo not part of this discussion, if he was correct we will have to admit this discussion is meaningless, but fun, for that matter the whole forum is meaningless, but fun, since companies do not participate in the discussions, only the users.


The discussion in this thread is ultimately meaningless. People whining about the project taking too long isn't going to make it take any less time.

This forum overall, however, is not meaningless. We know that DirecTV employees monitor certain threads, and there are things that get discussed that can actually lead to change. This just isn't one of them.


----------



## Richierich

Jeremy W said:


> The discussion in this thread is ultimately meaningless. People whining about the project taking too long isn't going to make it take any less time.
> 
> This forum overall, however, is not meaningless. We know that DirecTV employees monitor certain threads, and there are things that get discussed that can actually lead to change. This just isn't one of them.


Thank You Jeremy for Enlightening Me As I Was Totally In The Dark Until I Read Your Post!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

jacmyoung said:


> Well then I must disagree. By virtue of DirecTV and TiVo not part of this discussion, if he was correct we will have to admit this discussion is meaningless, but fun, for that matter the whole forum is meaningless, but fun, since companies do not participate in the discussions, only the users.
> 
> I doubt you want to admit that


Again....I believe you missed the point.

The original point was that pointing fingers at one party or other in the partnership between DirecTV or Tivo for any delays was meaningless by anyone else other than those parties, because only THEY have the actual project plan information and would have FACTS that reflect reasons for any delay.

Various folks here want to say its DirecTV hardware or Tivo software causing delays - put in simple terms - ONLY THEY WOULD KNOW.


----------



## Richierich

I have to Second that Motion!!!

Only Directv and TiVo truly know what is holding up the project!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

richierich said:


> Only Directv and TiVo truly know what is holding up the project!!!


Exactly.

So perhaps we all can resume to discussions of *what* & *when* to anticipate, as opposed to why.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> I have a good friend who has only only OTA (with a slightly better picture than D*), Hulu and NetFlix. His bill will be about $35 a month if he pays for a new TIVo. I will be at about $135 under the new price plan. For that kind of money, I want a "premium" DVR that I enjoy using and can brag about to my friends.


I don't doubt your figures at all, but to be clear, you are talking about the distribution of programming .. OTA vs. SAT .. So it's not really about the DVR and technically it's $35 vs. $5/month for the receiver and then $0 (via OTA) vs. $130/month for programming (via Sat) .. But I do get what you are trying to say here.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others. Then TiVo could get a bunch of shills to go on forums and claim that the box was great or that it will be RSN. They could post complicated "workarounds" for the features that don't work. You could even have a special forum for certain people to get updates before anyone else--call it "cutting" something or other.
> 
> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.


Nice backhanded slap  .. the numbers don't lie .. There are a LOT of HR2x out there .. TiVo? .. Not so much. I think most people that want a TiVo are pining for the day it will be released and certainly the hope is that it is both now and perfect .. It's doubtful that either can be met right away.


----------



## Alan Gordon

JBernardK said:


> So what do you guys want? Perhaps TiVo should release the box before it is finished with bugs and features that are lame or don't work and then let you guys "help" them debug it and have weekly updates that fix some things and break others. Then TiVo could get a bunch of shills to go on forums and claim that the box was great or that it will be RSN. They could post complicated "workarounds" for the features that don't work. You could even have a special forum for certain people to get updates before anyone else--call it "cutting" something or other.
> 
> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs. Most of all, it records and plays back what you have programmed it to do.




I've made no secrets that I prefer TiVo over the HR2x. Over the years, the HR2x has made steps that have certainly lessened the distance between the two units, but the lack of certain features still relegates it to second place.

However, I'm quick to stand up for the HR2x when it's treated me right, and I rarely have things not record when it's supposed to. Probably 3 times over the course of my time with the HR2x... which is probably around 3 or 4 years now. Yes, it's probably a couple more times than I've had the TiVos fail, but not enough to constitute a pattern... or even a concern of mine.

HILARIOUS POST though! 



Doug Brott said:


> Nice backhanded slap  .. the numbers don't lie .. There are a LOT of HR2x out there .. TiVo? .. Not so much.


No offense, Doug, but the above is a pet peeve of mine, so I have to open my mouth.

What do the numbers have to do with anything?! McDonald's has billions served, but I question anybody who would consider them to be top quality.

~Alan


----------



## LameLefty

Alan Gordon said:


> No offense, Doug, but the above is a pet peeve of mine, so I have to open my mouth.
> 
> What do the numbers have to do with anything?! McDonald's has billions served, but I question anybody who would consider them to be top quality.
> 
> ~Alan


_Au contraire_ . . . their french fries, when fresh, are the best in the world.


----------



## Alan Gordon

LameLefty said:


> _Au contraire_ . . . their french fries, when fresh, are the best in the world.


I was speaking in general terms.... as in their entire menu as a whole.

I'm in total agreement regarding the fries! 

I'm quite fond of their crispy chicken ranch BLT (minus the tomato) when fresh. Their hot fudge sundae and cinnamelt is pretty good, and I have no complaints regarding their breakfast menu as well, BUT as far as burgers go, they're not even in my top ten.

~Alan


----------



## ATARI

JBernardK said:


> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs.


Relatively speaking, yes.

But the first iteration of the DirecTivo had lots of bugs. I remember.

In fact, the first iteration of any semi-complex system is going to have a lot of bugs.

That's why I am done being an early adopter. I now wait a year for the kinks to get worked out and the price to drop.


----------



## ATARI

Alan Gordon said:


> I was speaking in general terms.... as in their entire menu as a whole.
> 
> I'm in total agreement regarding the fries!
> 
> I'm quite fond of their crispy chicken ranch BLT (minus the tomato) when fresh. Their hot fudge sundae and cinnamelt is pretty good, and I have no complaints regarding their breakfast menu as well, BUT as far as burgers go, they're not even in my top ten.
> 
> ~Alan


Their fries, their southwest chicken salad and their iced coffee (which I swear has crack cocaine in it).

Thanks a lot, now you've made me hungry.


----------



## Alan Gordon

JBernardK said:


> Come on, when TiVo releases a new box it has very few bugs.





ATARI said:


> Relatively speaking, yes.
> 
> But the first iteration of the DirecTivo had lots of bugs. I remember.


Let's also not forget when the HR10-250s were updated a few years back... not quite sure what that TiVo programmer was smoking, but I'm assuming he's either been fired... or has been put on the programming team for either the new DirecTiVo, or the Cox TiVo... 

~Alan


----------



## jacmyoung

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> So perhaps we all can resume to discussions of *what* & *when* to anticipate, as opposed to why.


First off, speculate who might be more responsible for the delay is not an entirely baseless game, there are signs and logic one can use to speculate, the only problem is those who love TiVo will not like to hear any signs that may point the finger at TiVo, those who love DirecTV will not like to hear any signs that may point the finger at DirecTV.

This is a speculative thread, if anticipating "why" is meaningless, then anticipating "what" and "when" is equally meaningless, because just as little as we know "why", we also know little "what" and "when".

But if we can at least be allowed to speculate "why", that may lead to a more useful speculation of "what" and "when". Give you an example, if it is likely TiVo's delay not DirecTV's, one can say as soon as TiVo steps up the pace, this new DVR can see the light of the day very soon, but if it is likely DirecTV's delay, no matter now hard TiVo tries, it may not matter. Why? Because DirecTV is in the driver's seat in this game, not TiVo.

Therefore IMHO speculating "why" is no less meaningful than speculating "what" and "when". Maybe they are all meaningless, but no one is less than the others.


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> [...] the numbers don't lie .. There are a LOT of HR2x out there .. TiVo? .. Not so much...


As I said 4 days ago here, if D* had not broken faith with those like me who paid around $900 for the first HD DirecTiVo, those HR2x boxes would've been MPEG-4 TiVo boxes instead (and DirecTV's customers would be far more satisfied than they are now).


----------



## ejjames

LameLefty said:


> _Au contraire_ . . . their french fries, when fresh, are the best in the world.


McDonald's hint: If you want to make sure your fries haven't been sitting around; askfor "no salt". They will most likely have to make a new batch, and you can always add your own.Talk about off topic! Sorry.


----------



## Iluv2watch

*New DirecTv HD Tivo DVR service will cost $12.99 per month per unit*

Since I am waiting for the new DTV HD Tivo, I called TIVO and asked "WHEN". They couldn't say "WHEN", but they did comment about the TIVO DVR service:

Customers will still pay DTV per month for programming as usual. 
And 
the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service. 
So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> As I said 4 days ago here, if D* had not broken faith with those like me who paid around $900 for the first HD DirecTiVo, those HR2x boxes would've been MPEG-4 TiVo boxes instead (and DirecTV's customers would be far more satisfied than they are now).


If Tivo hadn't been so arrogant .. I'd say you would be right.


----------



## Doug Brott

Iluv2watch said:


> *New DirecTv HD Tivo DVR service will cost $12.99 per month per unit*
> 
> Since I am waiting for the new DTV HD Tivo, I called TIVO and asked "WHEN". They couldn't say "WHEN", but they did comment about the TIVO DVR service:
> 
> Customers will still pay DTV per month for programming as usual.
> And
> the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service.
> So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!


Well, I believe that you were actually told this .. However, I don't believe that it is actually true .. It might be, but I'm pretty sure that even the diehard TiVotees would balk at that pricing thus making it a non-starter.


----------



## Jeremy W

Iluv2watch said:


> Customers will still pay DTV per month for programming as usual.
> And
> the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service.
> So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!


I *highly* doubt this information is correct. At the very least, DirecTV would be the one collecting the fees.


----------



## Syzygy

Iluv2watch said:


> ... And the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service.
> 
> So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!





Doug Brott said:


> Well, I believe that you were actually told this .. However, I don't believe that it is actually true .. It might be, but I'm pretty sure that even the diehard TiVotees would balk at that pricing thus making it a non-starter.


That's me, a diehard TiVotee, and Doug is right; I'd definitely *not* pay $25.98 extra per month to *anyone* for the two HD TiVos I would need.


----------



## celticpride

Heck if they did that i'd be better off going to verizon buying my own tivo and paying the $3.00 for a cable card!,thats why i dont think the $12.99 price is correct,at least i hope not!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Well, I believe that you were actually told this .. However, I don't believe that it is actually true .. It might be, but I'm pretty sure that even the diehard TiVotees would balk at that pricing thus making it a non-starter.


Agreed - even many of the loyalist Tivo fans would likely balk at that kind of monthly number.

Curious to know the source of that rumored information as well.


----------



## CJTE

So whom amongst us still thinks they're going to be able to download the Tivo O/S onto their current hardware?


----------



## bidger

Doug Brott said:


> Well, I believe that you were actually told this .. However, I don't believe that it is actually true .. It might be, but I'm pretty sure that even the diehard TiVotees would balk at that pricing thus making it a non-starter.


I have to agree. Standalone users pay $12.95/mo. for the first unit, but pay $9.95/mo. for additional. Personally, I think that's ridiculous and IMO TiVo has never gotten the additional unit pricing to my liking, but that seems even more ludicrous. If this is true, they'd be better off not releasing it.


----------



## jacmyoung

Iluv2watch said:


> *New DirecTv HD Tivo DVR service will cost $12.99 per month per unit*
> 
> Since I am waiting for the new DTV HD Tivo, I called TIVO and asked "WHEN". They couldn't say "WHEN", but they did comment about the TIVO DVR service:
> 
> Customers will still pay DTV per month for programming as usual.
> And
> the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service.
> So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!


If this is true coming out of TiVo, i.e. this is TiVo's official line, then I must say you have convinced me more than anyone else has been able to do here, this is TiVo's fault

I highly doubt though the CSRs knew what they were talking about.


----------



## loudo

It's hard to believe that they have set a price, for service, for a unit that no one has even seen yet.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well it's not an official statement but... it did come from TiVo Inc. so it's as close as we've gotten. I have to say though, that would be a suicidal business decision for them. It seems to me that the market for a DIRECTV-based TiVo would be pretty small if you have to pay a premium to buy/lease, then pay an additional fee on top of the DIRECTV fee. 

If that's really the case, maybe TiVo would be better off with a unified product that included CableCard and DIRECTV support, to minimize manufacturing costs. They'd never sell enough of the dedicated product.


----------



## Ken_F

Iluv2watch said:


> *New DirecTv HD Tivo DVR service will cost $12.99 per month per unit*
> 
> Since I am waiting for the new DTV HD Tivo, I called TIVO and asked "WHEN". They couldn't say "WHEN", but they did comment about the TIVO DVR service:
> 
> Customers will still pay DTV per month for programming as usual.
> And
> the customers will also have to send a check $12.99 per month per unit to Tivo for DVR service.
> So, if a customer has 2 DTV HD TIVO units, they would pay $25.98 to Tivo for DVR service! OUCH!


TiVo customer service does not have any information _whatsoever_ on the next DirecTiVo.

*Customer service simply told you what it would cost to use the existing TiVo service -- i.e. a standalone Series2 TiVo -- with DirecTV.*



Stuart Sweet said:


> Well it's not an official statement but... it did come from TiVo Inc. so it's as close as we've gotten.


There's no reason to entertain such nonsense. TiVo CSRs know about as much about the DirecTiVo as the average DirecTV CSR knows about the HR2*4* (i.e. nothing).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, you're probably right.

But it goes to show that a lot of companies have misinformed CSRs, doesn't it? If TiVo were really interested in this product, then they would probably want to address this information being posted on a public forum... yet another reason to think that we won't be seeing it any time soon.


----------



## jacmyoung

Ken_F said:


> TiVo customer service does not have any information _whatsoever_ on the next DirecTiVo.
> 
> *Customer service simply told you what it would cost to use the existing TiVo service -- i.e. a standalone Series2 TiVo -- with DirecTV.*
> 
> There's no reason to entertain such nonsense. TiVo CSRs know about as much about the DirecTiVo as the average DirecTV CSR knows about the HR2*4* (i.e. nothing).


You obviously know more than most people, may I ask who do you think is more responsible for the delay so far?


----------



## Sixto

jacmyoung said:


> You obviously know more than most people, may I ask who do you think is more responsible for the delay so far?


Bottom of post# 355 may be the answer.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

And you know, that all may be true. It's as compelling a story as any other. It still puts the blame squarely at TiVo's feet for not keeping the code modern, though, doesn't it?


----------



## Syzygy

Four days ago, when I read the penultimate paragraph of Ken_F's authoritative-sounding post, I was very happy to hear that _"TiVo has devoted most of its resources to a new platform for the past 18+ months." _I realize how hard it is for any software development group to start over again; hardly anyone ever does it. Kudos to TiVo!

But all a DirecTV-lover can think of is "here's another opportunity to blame TiVo for something." It's the old pop-psychology chant, "DirecTV's not OK, but then TiVo's not OK either."


----------



## Stuart Sweet

So now we're hauling out transactional analysis and using it to put words in my mouth? 

Nice try. 

If TiVo deserves credit for undertaking an overhaul of its code, then it deserves equal blame for not doing it sooner. I compare it to Apple, another consumer electronics manufacturer with a niche product. Their original product ran on the Motorola 68k series processor, and then when they moved to the IBM/Motorola PowerPC, their OS was a cobbled together mess. System 7 had some interesting ideas but it sure wasn't what it should have been, and OS 8 and OS 9 merely kept things going. 

Then OS X came out. First of all this was a complete reimagining of what the Apple OS should be. It owed as much to Nextstep as it did to previous Mac OS's. It was a hard road, but Apple persevered and continued to offer Classic support...

all the time developing what they really wanted, which was an Intel version of OS X. They developed ahead of the need, not behind it. And you know, I don't have a lot good to say about Apple, but they keep their developers looking forward. 

If, as Ken F says, TiVo realized what a pain it would be to port their old software to a new platform, be it an interpreted one like Java or a compiled one, they should have immediately begun their program to develop this new, platform-independent software... back in 2005 or 2006. 

If TiVo undertook the task of rewriting its core app in 2008, then great for them, but you can't gloss over the fact that they should have started earlier. 

Whatever they did or didn't do, I'm not a TiVo insider. In fact I wish them well but I really don't care what they do. But in the meantime I'm not going to ignore the conclusion that the delay is still due to TiVo.


----------



## texasmoose

All I'm hopeful for is that this new collaberation will feature the current TiVo functionality of offloading/archiving content to my PC. But, I'm sure the powers that be are scared of this because of DRM management.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

texasmoose, given the climate at DIRECTV, I'd be extraordinarily surprised to see that feature.


----------



## jacmyoung

Sixto said:


> Bottom of post# 355 may be the answer.


I read that post before, thought he was just joking. But now it appears people take it at least semi seriously, so my response is:

Pee on the floor then bend over and have a good look at yourself (a Chinese student once explained it to me BTW), do you even have any luxury to be choosy? Just beg DirecTV for an MPEG4 hardware and plug some ##$% software in, slap a TiVo logo on. You don't have time to be such a snob.

If you are on the edge of a cliff, do you even care what kind of straw are you going to grab?


----------



## Ken_F

Stuart Sweet said:


> But it goes to show that a lot of companies have misinformed CSRs, doesn't it? If TiVo were really interested in this product, then they would probably want to address this information being posted on a public forum... yet another reason to think that we won't be seeing it any time soon.


I don't think you can reasonably conclude anything from that.

The CSRs at TiVo only learn about new products 2-4 weeks before release, if that. The same thing goes for DirecTV and many other CE vendors. If CSRs know anything firm about an upcoming product, then you know release is imminent. The fact that they don't know anything only tells you release is at least 2-4 weeks out.



jacmyoung said:


> You obviously know more than most people, may I ask who do you think is more responsible for the delay so far?


I have no inside knowledge about the features, functionality, or status of the DirecTiVo or any other TiVo product.

There is only speculation of delay at this point. As far as we know, the product is still on schedule and there is no delay to their internal timeline. People are making too much of the DirecTiVo's absence at CES; it is not in DirecTV's interest to allow demos until both the hardware and software are ready to ship. DirecTV did not show the HR24, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about its status either.

People are speculating about the reasons for an _assumed_ delay, which is a bit ridiculous. If there is an actual delay, there are too many unknowns to speculate which party bears the most responsibility. We have no idea what requirements DirecTV set for the product, nor do we know how far TiVo is in meeting those requirements. Excluding members under NDA, we know nothing about the stability or maturity of the next DirecTV DVR hardware platform.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Ken_F said:


> (...) Excluding members under NDA, we know nothing about the stability or maturity of the next DirecTV DVR hardware platform.


Or even the meaning of the words "next DIRECTV DVR hardware platform."


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> [...] If, as Ken F says, TiVo realized what a pain it would be to port their old software to a new platform, be it an interpreted one like Java or a compiled one, they should have immediately begun their program to develop this new, platform-independent software... back in 2005 or 2006.
> 
> If TiVo undertook the task of rewriting its core app in 2008, then great for them, but you can't gloss over the fact that they should have started earlier...


To me it seems the advent of TiVo's "start-from-scratch" may have coincided with their agreement with DirecTV to build the new MPEG-4 DirecTiVo. Probably, TiVo couldn't have undertaken the task without DirecTV's cash influx. That would explain why it didn't start back in 2005 or 2006.


----------



## SledgeHammer

Alan Gordon said:


> I rarely have things not record when it's supposed to.


Hmm... thats funny.

I have an HR20-100. Its running the current (or last or whatever) national release (I dropped out of the CE program a long time ago cuz I really had better things to do then weekly updates that broke stuff and erased guide info).

Anyways...

Just last week, I wanted to record a program on BIO. Knowing BIO is the worst channel there is when it comes to stretching SD content for the HD channel, BUT noting the 2010 production date, I wasn't sure if the program would be real HD or stretched HD. So I set my DVR to record both the HD and SD versions of the show from 8pm to 9pm on BIO and BIOHD.

You know what my retarded DVR ended up doing?

1) It recorded BIO SD from 8:00pm to 8:01pm
2) It recorded BIO HD from 8:01pm to 9:00pm

The 59 min HD version was of course stretched .

Why it only recorded one minute of the SD version is beyond me. I've seen that bug before though.


----------



## Brennok

Stuart Sweet said:


> If TiVo undertook the task of rewriting its core app in 2008, then great for them, but you can't gloss over the fact that they should have started earlier.


I wonder and I may be completely off on this but is it possible that up until 2008 Broadcom didn't have a chipset that could justify a complete rewrite? Maybe someone more informed may know, but if the chipset isn't there I would imagine it would be tough to try to do a rewrite until hardware was in hand.

In someways and maybe incorrectly I assume it would be similar to game developers trying to write code for a game for the next generation of the Xbox 360 or PS3. Until they actually know what the hardware can do and how it does it, could they really program for it beyond the basics if they could even do that?


----------



## Doug Brott

Ken_F said:


> People are speculating about the reasons for an _assumed_ delay, which is a bit ridiculous. If there is an actual delay, there are too many unknowns to speculate which party bears the most responsibility. We have no idea what requirements DirecTV set for the product, nor do we know how far TiVo is in meeting those requirements. Excluding members under NDA, we know nothing about the stability or maturity of the next DirecTV DVR hardware platform.


Well, the DIRECTV/TiVo announcement did mention 2nd half of 2009:

Directv.com


> TiVo will develop the new HD DVR for an expected launch in the second half of 2009.


I'm sure there are semantics here, but on the surface I'd already say that the delay is no longer "assumed" but fact.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> To me it seems the advent of TiVo's "start-from-scratch" may have coincided with their agreement with DirecTV to build the new MPEG-4 DirecTiVo. Probably, TiVo couldn't have undertaken the task without DirecTV's cash influx. That would explain why it didn't start back in 2005 or 2006.


Considering TiVo's financial status these last few years (how long ago did they get Dish money?), one has to wonder if they simply didn't have enough (programmer) manpower to work on all their irons in the fire (ComcasTiVo, CoxTiVo, etc...)

Simply put, while I commend TiVo's (rumored) forward thinking, my TiVo Series 3 still works great, so I have trouble understanding why it's that bad of a thing that TiVo took so long to start...

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

I have worked in IT as a Programmer/Consultant for more than 30 years and I would say about 90% of all Major Projects I have worked on Never met the First Initial Deadline.

Murphy's Law will jump up and bite you in a Heartbeat so you might as well factor that into the equation but alot of the time Upper Management makes decisions for Timelines that are just Unrealistic to the Lower Level Coders and managers who really know the technical problems that will be faced and that there are many that we will not know until they surface.


----------



## Ken_F

Doug Brott said:


> Well, the DIRECTV/TiVo announcement did mention 2nd half of 2009:
> 
> Directv.com


That PR was issued 9/2008. The TiVo CEO has said "early 2010" or "2010" for the better part of the last year.

Members are speculating on a new delay, not the original delay.


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> Considering TiVo's financial status these last few years (how long ago did they get Dish money?), one has to wonder if they simply didn't have enough (programmer) manpower to work on all their irons in the fire (ComcasTiVo, CoxTiVo, etc...)


Others have said that TiVo is still waiting for the balance of the money from Dish (plus interest) -- something about Dish appealing the judgment. So I presume TiVo is currently strapped for cash, and has been for quite a while.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Ken_F said:


> People are speculating about the reasons for an _assumed_ delay, which is a bit ridiculous. *If there is an actual delay, there are too many unknowns to speculate which party bears the most responsibility. We have no idea what requirements DirecTV set for the product, nor do we know how far TiVo is in meeting those requirements.* Excluding members under NDA, we know nothing about the stability or maturity of the next DirecTV DVR hardware platform.


My feelings exactly...



Stuart Sweet said:


> If, as Ken F says, TiVo realized what a pain it would be to port their old software to a new platform, be it an interpreted one like Java or a compiled one, they should have immediately begun their program to develop this new, platform-independent software... back in 2005 or 2006.
> 
> If TiVo undertook the task of rewriting its core app in 2008, then great for them, but you can't gloss over the fact that they should have started earlier.


Too easy! 



Alan Gordon said:


> I rarely have things not record when it's supposed to.





SledgeHammer said:


> Hmm... thats funny.


I don't know what to tell you. I have issues with the HR2x... the 50 Series Link limit is a particular point of anger these last couple of weeks, and I could talk of other issues, some big, some little, but it's pretty reliable for me on the recordings. I have no complaints there... 

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

richierich said:


> I have worked in IT as a Programmer/Consultant for more than 30 years and I would say about 90% of all Major Projects I have worked on Never met the First Initial Deadline.
> 
> Murphy's Law will jump up and bite you in a Heartbeat so you might as well factor that into the equation but alot of the time Upper Management makes decisions for Timelines that are just Unrealistic to the Lower Level Coders and managers who really know the technical problems that will be faced and that there are many that we will not know until they surface.


That doesn't just go for programming projects either. Trust me, I know...

~Alan


----------



## Ken_F

Syzygy said:


> Others have said that TiVo is still waiting for the balance of the money from Dish -- something about Dish appealing the judgment. So I presume TiVo is currently strapped for cash, and has been for quite a while.


TiVo received ~$104 million back in October, 2008. An additional ~$300 million is pending the appeal.


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> That PR was issued 9/2008. The TiVo CEO has said "early 2010" or "2010" for the better part of the last year.
> 
> Members are speculating on a new delay, not the original delay.


Exactly.

And it was recently that Tom said "early 2010".

Was trying to find a exact quote a few days ago. It wasn't in the last analyst call. I need to look back further.


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> ... the 50 Series Link limit is a particular point of anger these last couple of weeks, and I could talk of other issues, some big, some little, but it's pretty reliable for me on the recordings. I have no complaints there...


I do have complaints about missed recordings and lack of any History info about them... but remember, this isn't a thread for complaining about the HR2x.


----------



## Doug Brott

Sixto said:


> Exactly.
> 
> And it was recently that Tom said "early 2010".
> 
> Was trying to find a exact quote a few days ago. It wasn't in the last analyst call. I need to look back further.


Oh, it could still happen .. I've just lost a little bit of faith in TiVo's timeline since there wasn't much about the STB @ CES.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> I do have complaints about missed recordings and lack of any History info about them... but remember, this isn't a thread for complaining about the HR2x.


It often seems like a thread to complain about TiVo...

In the last week, a "discussion" broke out on TiVo Community Forum regarding a poster's issues with his TiVo HD. Apparently, these issues are not specific to him, but not exactly widespread either. Other posters spoke up about how these issues, while serious, were not widespread. That's kind of how I feel about the above. I'm sorry these are happening to you, but I'm lucky in that my HR2x DVRs are reliable.

My only complaints regarding the HR2x are related to the lack of features which I miss from TiVo. I have similar complaints regarding TiVo lacking features that my HR2x has, but they are (usually) of lesser importance to me, personally. These issues I have (against both DVRs) are the same across all boxes.

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> Oh, it could still happen .. I've just lost a little bit of faith in TiVo's timeline since there wasn't much about the STB @ CES.


You are not alone....the almost-rehearsed answer at CES of "its still coming in 2010", and no demo anything onsite certainly didn't add any encouragement that its coming any time soon.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Brennok said:


> I wonder and I may be completely off on this but is it possible that up until 2008 Broadcom didn't have a chipset that could justify a complete rewrite?


The TiVo Series 3 and DIRECTV HR20 DVR are both based on the Broadcom chips and they were out before 2008.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy said:


> To me it seems the advent of TiVo's "start-from-scratch" may have coincided with their agreement with DirecTV to build the new MPEG-4 DirecTiVo. Probably, TiVo couldn't have undertaken the task without DirecTV's cash influx. That would explain why it didn't start back in 2005 or 2006.


So do I understand properly that in your opinion, TiVo, the company, was too weak to keep their code properly up to date and instead relied on low-cost patches? If so then once again that's poor business development and has nothing to do with DIRECTV, other than they were bailed out by DIRECTV just in time.


----------



## Syzygy

Stuart Sweet said:


> So do I understand properly that in your opinion, TiVo, the company, was *too weak* to keep their code *properly* up to date and instead relied on *low-cost patches*? If so then once again that's poor business development and has nothing to do with DIRECTV, other than they were *bailed out* by DIRECTV just in time.


Low blows. It seems that you can't restrain yourself from leaping at TiVo's jugular whenever it seems that they have the same difficulties in maintaining software that every other company has. (BTW, patches are very dangerous binary-code overlays; I'm sure TiVo's software changes were made in the source code.)

And to think, *I'm* the one who gets accused of being too vitriolic about D*'s software mistakes.


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> So do I understand properly that in your opinion, TiVo, the company, was too weak to keep their code properly up to date and instead relied on low-cost patches? If so then once again that's poor business development and has nothing to do with DIRECTV, other than they were bailed out by DIRECTV just in time.


TiVo unlike most companies, has a huge cash reserve ($600M the latest, comparatively speaking of course) and low or no debt, these two points have been talked about over and over in their quarterly conferences. Maybe they are waiting for the appeals court decision and see if E*'s $200M will turly be theirs, before making a commitment on any big projects, if so, it can take a year to find out if the last appeal is any indication, even if the appeals court decision goes their way.


----------



## Shades228

I wouldn't say it's a low blow. Replay was better than both dvr's and look how well that turned out for them as a company on their own. TiVo made some very bad business decisions when they thought they were going to be kings of DVR. 

I would be surprised if we see this by Q3 if at all. I think the closer we get to DirecTV launching it's next line of receivers is when TiVo will just decide to load their software onto it.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Shades228 said:


> I wouldn't say it's a low blow. Replay was better than both dvr's and look how well that turned out for them as a company on their own. TiVo made some very bad business decisions when they thought they were going to be kings of DVR.


Very true.

In fact, had Comcast not come to their rescue about that very same time with a new contract for their services...Tivo would likely be extinct now.

They were flirting with bankruptcy at that time, and its not all that long ago either.

The DirecTV agreement, along with the Comcast one....provided a life line.


----------



## Richierich

Patching happens all the time in the software development arena until you reach a point where you have to JUSTIFY to Upper Management that it is in their Best Interest to invest the money to rewrite the entire system.

Upper Management doesn't understand why but after a while when you say you can't do this or we can't do that because our coding is antiquated then finally they become convinced enough to spend the money and time and resources to redo the whole system.

Apparently, TiVo reached that Point In Time and Senior Management agreed that they needed to spend the resources (that they now had) to Upgrade their software.

It is always a decision that involves Money (alot of money), Resources and Time. Not an easy decision for a Senior Manager to make if his job depends upon the success of the project.


----------



## Brennok

Stuart Sweet said:


> The TiVo Series 3 and DIRECTV HR20 DVR are both based on the Broadcom chips and they were out before 2008.


Correct but different versions of the Broadcom chips is my point. Many of the newer Broadcom chips from what I have read added things that weren't on the original chips in addition to improving things that were already there.


----------



## Ken_F

Taking the example of Palm, it was not possible for them to create the Pre's WebOS at a substantially earlier date as the technology did not exist. Webkit did not exist, nor did the processor and graphics chipsets necessary to run it at an acceptable performance on a mobile device.

If you have not seen the Boxee box in action, you may want to take a look at the video demos linked *here* and *here*. That's an example of a newer hardware platform running a Flash-based UI. That sort of interface was not possible on a low-cost CE device until recently.

I don't know when we'll see something like that on a DVR, but you're not likely to see it on any platform engineered back in 2006 or 2007.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Ken_F said:


> If you have not seen the Boxee box in action, you may want to take a look at the video demos linked *here* and *here*. *That's an example of a newer hardware platform running a Flash-based UI.* That sort of interface was not possible on a low-cost CE device until recently.
> 
> I don't know when we'll see something like that on a DVR, but you're not likely to see it on any platform engineered back in 2006 or 2007.


Hmm.... 

TiVo Rumor: TiVo to Incorporate Flash Into a New UI?

Series 4 to be called "Tivo Premiere"? 

~Alan


----------



## wingrider01

richierich said:


> I have worked in IT as a Programmer/Consultant for more than 30 years and I would say about 90% of all Major Projects I have worked on Never met the First Initial Deadline.
> 
> Murphy's Law will jump up and bite you in a Heartbeat so you might as well factor that into the equation but alot of the time Upper Management makes decisions for Timelines that are just Unrealistic to the Lower Level Coders and managers who really know the technical problems that will be faced and that there are many that we will not know until they surface.


please post the name so that I know never to contact that company for a major project.

Of the last 5 major projects that where bid out to consulting firms 4 of the 5 hit targeted deadline with all functionalty intact and working, the 5th one the consulting company is paying a hefty penalty per month until the project is completed to specifications. 3 of the 4 successfully completed project came in under budget and early - they got a bonus for proper completetion.


----------



## wingrider01

Ken_F said:


> Taking the example of Palm, it was not possible for them to create the Pre's WebOS at a substantially earlier date as the technology did not exist. Webkit did not exist, nor did the processor and graphics chipsets necessary to run it at an acceptable performance on a mobile device.
> 
> If you have not seen the Boxee box in action, you may want to take a look at the video demos linked *here* and *here*. That's an example of a newer hardware platform running a Flash-based UI. That sort of interface was not possible on a low-cost CE device until recently.
> 
> I don't know when we'll see something like that on a DVR, but you're not likely to see it on any platform engineered back in 2006 or 2007.


if flash based, another reason to stay as far away as possible


----------



## Richierich

wingrider01 said:


> please post the name so that I know never to contact that company for a major project.
> 
> Of the last 5 major projects that where bid out to consulting firms 4 of the 5 hit targeted deadline with all functionalty intact and working, the 5th one the consulting company is paying a hefty penalty per month until the project is completed to specifications. 3 of the 4 successfully completed project came in under budget and early - they got a bonus for proper completetion.


I have worked for about 10 or 12 Fortune 500 Companies as a Consultant and this has happened repeatedly so you must be very lucky or work for a very smart company.

Ever heard of Coca Cola or Bellsouth Mobility or SunTrust Bank or NationsBank??? It happens especially when Upper Management keeps throwing in WishLists.

Okay, Back To Topic!!!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

wingrider01 said:


> please post the name so that I know never to contact that company for a major project.
> 
> Of the last 5 major projects that where bid out to consulting firms 4 of the 5 hit targeted deadline with all functionalty intact and working, the 5th one the consulting company is paying a hefty penalty per month until the project is completed to specifications. 3 of the 4 successfully completed project came in under budget and early - they got a bonus for proper completetion.


Its apparently time to bring *Mr. Sign *back regarding the DirecTV Tivobox discussion. 

:backtotop


----------



## bdcottle

I think it’s nice that some of you like your HR2x, but to me that is like leasing a car from Texaco. I’m sure Texaco would make their car as fuel efficient as possible. (cough, 50 sl limit, cig broke, cough)

DirecTv is a satellite co, Tivo is a dvr co. I would prefer my dvr come from a drv co.

So ya, I can’t wait for the DirecTivo HD. And I would prefer to own my DirecTivo HD.

And as far as the HR24 goes, my HR21 has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I find it hard to take another byte from the Directv dvr.


----------



## Richierich

bdcottle said:


> So ya, I can't wait for the DirecTivo HD. And I would prefer to own my DirecTivo HD.
> 
> And as far as the HR24 goes, my HR21 has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I find it hard to take another byte from the Directv dvr.


I would wait until the HR24 comes out and monitor how people here and elsewhere report about it's performance and then make a decision whether or not it is for you or do you prefer to wait until the Directivo DVR comes out.

If it works as I think it will I am not sure you will want to wait another 6 months or so until you can get your hands on a more expensive Directivo DVR. I will get an HR24 and a New Directivo DVR and play with both of them.

If it is Lightning Fast with 4 tuners and alot of other software problems have been resolved then you may want to rethink your position or you may want to just wait for the more expensive Directivo DVR. I like to Own my units also so I can change out the internal drive for a larger one from the gitgo. Just a thought.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bdcottle said:


> DirecTV is a satellite co, Tivo is a dvr co. *I would prefer my dvr come from a dvr co*.


Then you have a challenge.

Tivo is predominantly a DVR *software* company.

They license their product to various cable and sat folks. They also have a hardware partner to manufacture a couple of Tivo-branded DVRs. They manufacture no hardware themselves.

But for the most part, they are a software company - that's also where they hold their patents and do most of their work....software.


----------



## loudo

bdcottle said:


> DirecTv is a satellite co, Tivo is a dvr co. I would prefer my dvr come from a drv co.


Not sure what your definition of a DVR company, but if you are referring to hardware, they don't manufacture their own DVRs. DirecTV DVRs are made by companies that manufacture DVRs, and TIVO is the same way. TIVO's hardware has been manufactured by companies like Phillips, Sony, Hughes, Humax and a few others, some of the same companies that have manufacturer DirecTV receivers.

DirecTV programmers write the software for their receivers and TIVO programmers write the software for theirs. By combining the best of both, we hope that it will develop a superior product. Sometimes this backfires and to many cooks spoils the soup. Time will tell. Until I see the final product and its features I won't make a judgment on the new receiver.


----------



## Jeremy W

loudo said:


> DirecTV programmers write the software for their receivers and TIVO programmers write the software for theirs. By combining the best of both, we hope that it will develop a superior product.


DirecTV programmers are not working on Tivo's software.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV programmers are not working on Tivo's software.


Which is what *loudo* actually said in his post - Tivo programmers work on Tivo software.


----------



## Jeremy W

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Which is what *loudo* actually said in his post - Tivo programmers work on Tivo software.


And then he said:


loudo said:


> By combining the best of both, we hope that it will develop a superior product.


There is no combining of anything.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Jeremy W said:


> And then he said:
> 
> There is no combining of anything.


Tivo software with DirecTV-supplied hardware....which is what will be happening. I suspect that's the "best of both worlds combining" he was referencing.

At least that's how I read it all along.

We're all good now.


----------



## Syzygy

It would be good to know how much influence TiVo has had on the _design _of the next-gen hardware. Of course, neither TiVo nor D* is _building _the box, but I'd feel much better if all of TiVo's possible hardware concerns were being met.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Syzygy said:


> It would be good to know how much influence TiVo has had on the _design _of the next-gen hardware.


Since we now know that a next generation DirecTV HD DVR and a new Tivobox are coming out in 2010 (based on the very same base hardware platform)....my guess the answer is next to Zero.

The Tivo software for the newer Tivo-based Comcast box also required Tivo to conform to the hardware specifications/capabilities, and not the other way around.


----------



## Sixto

Reading all this negative stuff here is somewhat disappointing.

Personally, I wish TiVo the best of luck.

It's not like we're talking FiOS, or AT&T , or Dish, or some competitor ... this is just another flavor of DVR for our favorite TV provider ... supported and tightly integrated with our service.

Having another option, from one of the inventors of the technology, is great, whenever it's ready. They should just do whatever it takes to get it right the first time. No one wants to deal with a rushed product with massive bugs.

The TiVo fans will be happy.

Those that just want the same DVR they had for SD will be happy.

And from past experience, competition is good ... and those who prefer the DVR+ firmware will probably also benefit. The DVR+ development team might have some added pressure to outperform the other option.

All good stuff.

We all win.

And good luck to TiVo. No need being negative about a DVR company developing a product for my favorite TV provider.


----------



## Ken_F

Sixto said:


> Having another option, from one of the inventors of the technology, is great, whenever it's ready. They should just do whatever it takes to get it right the first time. No one wants to deal with a rushed product with massive bugs.
> 
> The TiVo fans will be happy.
> 
> Those that just want the same DVR they had for SD will be happy.
> 
> And from past experience, competition is good ... and those who prefer the DVR+ firmware will probably also benefit. The DVR+ development team might have some added pressure to outperform the other option.
> 
> All good stuff.
> 
> We all win.
> 
> And good luck to TiVo. No need being negative about a DVR company developing a product for my favorite TV provider.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Sixto said:


> Reading all this negative stuff here is somewhat disappointing.
> 
> Personally, I wish TiVo the best of luck.
> 
> The TiVo fans will be happy.
> 
> Those that just want the same DVR they had for SD will be happy.
> 
> And from past experience, competition is good ... and those who prefer the DVR+ firmware will probably also benefit. The DVR+ development team might have some added pressure to outperform the other option.
> 
> We all win.


All true.

The news of this rolling slowly is disappointing, but everything still points to a time where it will indeed happen.

With the advent of a next generation DirecTV HD DVR *and* a new Tivobox....there will be choices....but there simply are no losers.

Naysayers need not apply.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> It would be good to know how much influence TiVo has had on the _design _of the next-gen hardware. Of course, neither TiVo nor D* is _building _the box, but I'd feel much better if all of TiVo's possible hardware concerns were being met.


I don't think it will be on a next-gen box .. so TiVo would have no influence .. They use the specs that are available to them.


----------



## dennisj00

Let me say I really liked my Sony Tivos.

Let me say I missed some features when I got my HR20, but the HD was great.

Let me say . . .there is no HD Tivo for DirecTV and it looks like it will be another year before it becomes reality - if ever.

Let me say there have been significant improvements in the HR series since I got my first HR20. I now have 4 HR2xes and am very pleased with them. Other than the SL limit which has never been a factor for us, I can't think of a show stopper - obviously since I am still paying monthly for all of them.

Let me say, complaining on a forum feels good but like my daddy said, "Wish in one hand and xxxxx in the other" isn't going to make the HR better for you. Figure out what your box needs to perform correctly.

If it's not corrected, cancel your subscription.

Or wait on the HD Tivo and miss a LOT of HD programming.

Let me say, I'm still interested in the HD Tivo but I'm not holding my breath.


----------



## loudo

Jeremy W said:


> And then he said:
> 
> There is no combining of anything.


I don't think TIVO software people will be writing new software 100%. I think the practical way would be to incorporate the current DirecTV software (tuner control, unit control, Media Share, TV Apps and anything else non DRV) together with the TIVO DVR features, into one software package.

Only my speculation, but "Why reinvent the wheel", just improve it to make it better.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Reading all this negative stuff here is somewhat disappointing.
> 
> Personally, I wish TiVo the best of luck.
> 
> It's not like we're talking FiOS, or AT&T , or Dish, or some competitor ... this is just another flavor of DVR for our favorite TV provider ... supported and tightly integrated with our service.
> 
> Having another option, from one of the inventors of the technology, is great, whenever it's ready. They should just do whatever it takes to get it right the first time. No one wants to deal with a rushed product with massive bugs.
> 
> The TiVo fans will be happy.
> 
> Those that just want the same DVR they had for SD will be happy.
> 
> And from past experience, competition is good ... and those who prefer the DVR+ firmware will probably also benefit. The DVR+ development team might have some added pressure to outperform the other option.
> 
> All good stuff.
> 
> We all win.
> 
> And good luck to TiVo. No need being negative about a DVR company developing a product for my favorite TV provider.


:bowdown::bowdown: :righton::righton:  :righton::righton: :bowdown::bowdown:​


Sixto said:


> Reading all this negative stuff here is somewhat disappointing.


Honestly, the only reason I'm even posting on this thread lately is because I was extremely disappointed to read such negative remarks about TiVo... and wanted to even the odds. Sure, their units have their faults, but so do the HR2xs.

Since the premiere of the HR2x (which was released later than announced as well, BTW), the HR2x has added many features available on TiVo DVRs. During the same course of time, TiVo has added several features previously available on the HR2x. This is still going on today...

I've said before that I will most likely replace two of my DirecTiVos with the new units. I have no intentions of replacing my HR2x HD-DVRs. If TiVo does a good job with the new unit, that may change, but at this time, I'm just extremely greatful to soon have a choice.

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think it will be on a next-gen box .. so TiVo would have no influence .. They use the specs that are available to them.


Richierich has said that the DirecTV guys at CES told him about a new box coming with a Lightning Fast Chipset.

Do you believe it? If you do, do you imagine that it'll be available for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's?

(I believe that writing code for the new, more capable hardware may be what's slowing up both companies.)


----------



## Syzygy

loudo said:


> I don't think TIVO software people will be writing new software 100%. I think the practical way would be to incorporate the current DirecTV software (tuner control, unit control, Media Share, TV Apps and anything else non DRV) together with the TIVO DVR features, into one software package.
> 
> Only my speculation, but "Why reinvent the wheel", just improve it to make it better.


I'm all for incorporating DirecTV features like *user-settable recording defaults, one-touch Record, one-touch Keep, bookmarks, 90-minute buffers, triple-tap text entry, icons like (R), (R))) and [HD] in lists and the Guide* -- and maybe an available-space meter (not really needed if there is either a Deleted Items folder or a Suggestions folder)... but it looks from here like DirecTV's current code has been modified so much that it has become unmaintainable. Anyway, according to Ken_F, TiVo's code is going to be new from the ground up (pretty much).

BTW, I think they should omit TV Apps -- not worth the trouble.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> Richierich has said that the DirecTV guys at CES told him about a new box coming with a Lightning Fast Chipset.
> 
> Do you believe it? If you do, do you imagine that it'll be available for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's?
> 
> (I believe that writing code for the new, more capable hardware may be what's slowing up both companies.)


Yes, I do believe this .. I may not be right because this is the sort of information that I'm usually not privy to and I haven't been told .. But I do believe exactly what you have stated here.


----------



## Syzygy

Syzygy said:


> Richierich has said that the DirecTV guys at CES told him about a new box coming with a Lightning Fast Chipset.
> 
> Do you believe it? If you do, *do you imagine that it'll be available for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's?*
> 
> (I believe that writing code for the new, more capable hardware may be what's slowing up both companies.)





Doug Brott said:


> Yes, I do believe this .. I may not be right because this is the sort of information that I'm usually not privy to and I haven't been told .. But I do believe exactly what you have stated here.


Just to be sure... a spiffy new box for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's??? _That's _what you expect to happen?


----------



## jacmyoung

Syzygy said:


> Just to be sure... a spiffy new box for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's??? _That's _what you expect to happen?


How much more do you want him to say?


----------



## Brennok

Syzygy said:


> Just to be sure... a spiffy new box for DirecTV's new DVR but not for TiVo's??? _That's _what you expect to happen?


I could see it happening based off the demo of the RVU DVR at CES. Tivo never joined the RVU alliance as far as I know, but Directv did which to me means the next chipset they use may be the newest one by Broadcom that incorporates RVU.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> I'm all for incorporating DirecTV features like: .


I doubt DirecTV has the patents on any of the features you listed, so I don't see any reason why TiVo couldn't incorporate some of them across the board.... BUT I do have to ask, what do you mean by icons in lists and the Guide???????????

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> I doubt DirecTV has the patents on any of the features you listed, so I don't see any reason why TiVo couldn't incorporate some of them across the board.... BUT I do have to ask, what do you mean by icons in lists and the Guide???????????
> 
> ~Alan


I suspect the cross licensing agreement between DIRECTV and TiVo works both ways, so if DIRECTV has any Patents that TiVo could use I would expect it to be OK. Having not seen the agreements I can't really say for sure, but that is what I would expect.


----------



## jacmyoung

Alan Gordon said:


> I doubt DirecTV has the patents on any of the features you listed, so I don't see any reason why TiVo couldn't incorporate some of them across the board.... BUT I do have to ask, what do you mean by icons in lists and the Guide???????????
> 
> ~Alan


The "look and feel" is protected by Trade Dress Statute which basically says you are liable if you mislead the consumers by imitating other products' look and feel which may lead the person to think he is using the other product. What is behind the scene is not covered, such as the DB function. But DB could be covered by a patent.

In this case TiVo and DirecTV has a "no sue" agreement, but I don't think it allows (or is it appropriate) for TiVo to make the UI and functions look like DirecTV's.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> I suspect the cross licensing agreement between DIRECTV and TiVo works both ways, so if DIRECTV has any Patents that TiVo could use I would expect it to be OK. Having not seen the agreements I can't really say for sure, but that is what I would expect.


Interesting!



jacmyoung said:


> The "look and feel" is protected by Trade Dress Statute which basically says you are liable if you mislead the consumers by imitating other products' look and feel which may lead the person to think he is using the other product. What is behind the scene is not covered, such as the DB function. But DB could be covered by a patent.
> 
> In this case TiVo and DirecTV has a "no sue" agreement, but I don't think it allows (or is it appropriate) for TiVo to make the UI and functions look like DirecTV's.


I was not referring to the UI. Quite frankly put, I've never been a "fan" of DirecTV's GUI, so I would hope TiVo wouldn't copy them. 

However, as I have said in the past, DirecTV has added features available on the TiVo to their HD-DVR... which were not originally there... and TiVo has added features to their HD-DVRs that were previously available on the HR2xs.

Going over Syzygy's list, he lists eight features, several ones of which are not exclusive to DirecTV's DVRs, and others which are common in other forms of consumer devices:

*1. User-Settable Recording Defaults:* I'm not sure if DirecTV has the exclusive on this as far as DVRs are concerned, but I don't believe offering this feature would exactly be copying DirecTV.
*2. One-Touch Record:* I never saw what was so fantastic about this on DVRs myself, but I had this on my VCR, and DVD Recorder, so I doubt DirecTV is the only DVR maker to offer this feature.
*3. One-Touch Keep:* I'm wanting to say I've seen this on another DVR, but I could be wrong. Again, I don't really understand the interest, but to each their own.
*4. Bookmarks:* More and more of my Blu-rays are offering this feature, so I don't really consider it to be just a DVR feature.
*5. 90-Minute Buffers:* I've read that some cableco DVRs (and I think the ComcasTiVo is one of them) only have 20 minutes. Given the fact that 90 minutes is a competitive number given TV programming, I don't really see that as copying either.
*6. Triple-Tap Text Entry:* Given our society's obsession with texting, I would find it hard to believe that one could call it copying as well.
*7. Icons In Lists And The Guide:* ??????? I still don't understand what he meant by this, so I can't comment on it.
*8. Available-Space Meter:* Cableco DVRs have this, so DirecTV doesn't hold an exclusive.

The two features on the HR2x I like that TiVo doesn't have (other than Bookmarks listed above) are the ability to pad back-to-back recordings on the same channel, and the displaying of conflicts in the To Do List don't really seem like features that would be copying DirecTV either, but rather adding features to remain competitive.

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> ... BUT I do have to ask, what do you mean by [the DirecTV feature you call] icons in lists and the Guide?


The (R), (R))) and [HD] icons. My nearly 6-year-old HD DirecTiVo doesn't have anything like them.



jacmyoung said:


> The "look and feel" is protected by Trade Dress Statute which basically says you are liable if you mislead the consumers by imitating other products' look and feel...


From my list, I would've thought it was clear I wasn't wishing for a similar look and feel. In fact, I don't appreciate DirecTV's "look" (except for the aforementioned icons ).


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> ... The two features on the HR2x I like that TiVo doesn't have (other than Bookmarks listed above) are the ability to pad back-to-back recordings on the same channel, and the displaying of conflicts in the To Do List don't really seem like features that would be copying DirecTV either, but rather adding features to remain competitive.


I like those two DirecTV features too; I just thought my list was getting too long as it was, and decided not to include them.

I left out two more DirecTV features that I'd like on my TiVo: 
• Easier access to Closed Captioning 
• Series Options and View Upcoming available directly from the detail screen of a show that has already been recorded


----------



## jacmyoung

My use of "look and feel" may be confusing, the trade dress protection basically make it liable for a product and service to cause confusion by the user, misleading him to think it is the other product/service he is using.

An easy example is how the remote is designed. Most remotes are alike, keys are similar, even the number of key strokes, which is fine, as long as your remote is not too much like the next one for it to be mistaken by you as another brand remote when you use it. There are always some differences from brand to brand to eliminate such confusion, same as how the guide looks, how the icons are arranged. There can certainly be similarities but not straight copying of most functions.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> The (R), (R))) and [HD] icons. My nearly 6-year-old HD DirecTiVo doesn't have anything like them.


I personally prefer TiVo's *O* icon for record over the *(R)* icon. The *(R)))* icon is pretty cool, but is less important for me when I can have unlimited Season Passes.

I'm assuming you mean the *[HD]* icon in the Playlist, because didn't the HR10-250 have *[HD]* icons in the Guide? My HR10-250 is now used for SD content, so I can't remember, but I know the TiVo Series 3 has them in the Grid Guide.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> I left out two more DirecTV features that I'd like on my TiVo:
> 
> • Easier access to Closed Captioning: *Currently Available On Stand-Alone TiVos.*
> • Series Options and View Upcoming available directly from the detail screen of a show that has already been recorded: *Currently Available On Stand-Alone TiVos... sorta...*


~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> I personally prefer TiVo's *O* icon for record over the *(R)* icon. The *(R)))* icon is pretty cool, but is less important for me when I can have unlimited Season Passes.
> 
> I'm assuming you mean the *[HD]* icon in the Playlist, because didn't the HR10-250 have *[HD]* icons in the Guide? My HR10-250 is now used for SD content, so I can't remember, but I know the TiVo Series 3 has them in the Grid Guide.


I did a double-take and then a triple-take on reading this. How could I have missed the *O* and *[HD]* icons in the Guide? 

But I checked the HR10 and verified that it has no icon at all to indicate _scheduled_ recordings, either in its Guide or in any of its lists. Programs that are _currently_ being recorded do have an *O* icon, but only in Now Playing and the To Do List.

Also, I verified that there is no *[HD]* icon in the "List Guide", which is the one I always use. Just now I switched to the "Grid Guide" and for the first time I saw *[HD]* and *[LB]* icons on the HR10. But these icons appear in no other lists, just the Grid Guide, while the HR2x has *[HD]* icons all over the place.

BTW, I'm glad the HR2x doesn't use the *[LB]* icon anywhere. "Letterboxed" does appear in descriptions, sometimes even together with "High Def."


----------



## jacmyoung

I am surprised no one here caught the analyst's comment about their sense that the new DirecTiVo will come out "in weeks".


----------



## Doug Brott

jacmyoung said:


> I am surprised no one here caught the analyst's comment about their sense that the new DirecTiVo will come out "in weeks".


Source?


----------



## Deezul

jacmyoung said:


> I am surprised no one here caught the analyst's comment about their sense that the new DirecTiVo will come out "in weeks".


It will come on "in weeks." That just means it's going to be more than one week from now.  If they had said "a week" or "a month" I'd be happy...


----------



## jacmyoung

Doug Brott said:


> Source?


TiVo had meetings with Lazard Capital on Friday, today I saw this from Investors Village Board:



> TIVO: Recap of management meetings, positives aside from patent
> 
> Notable time to meet investors. At a time when we and investors anxiously await the
> outcome of a key appeals court decision in the longstanding patent dispute with Dish
> Network, which could be issued at any moment now, TiVo VP of business development
> Naveen Chopra took a day with us to meet investors. Since there is nothing of substance
> that can be said about the pending patent litigation, the meetings focused on TiVo's
> business initiatives, and reasons to be optimistic, whatever way the courts rule.
> 
> DirecTV deal. Chopra reiterated that an HD DirecTV box is coming this year, and that
> TiVo will be paid minimum guarantees even if the box is delayed, which is not expected.
> *Our sense was that the TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV could be coming in weeks, although Chopra could not be that specific*. The new DirecTV deal will carry much higher fees than the legacy deal. There is an option for DirecTV to potentially pay more to acquire satellite TV exclusivity, and lock out Dish Network. That could give TiVo leverage over Dish, should it prevail in court.
> 
> Other deals. Comcast is still expected to ramp up this year, followed by Cox. Virgin is
> seen as the key international deal, with a ramp up seen beginning later this year. TiVo
> believes the RCN deal positions it to become the DVR of choice for small cable
> operators. Best Buy later this year is expected to start marketing the TiVo DVR
> extensively as a way to promote its online offerings.
> 
> Long-term vision, the Google of TV. Chopra believes that the long-term future for
> TiVo is to become the Google of TV - the search interface that does the best job of
> helping consumers find content, wherever it is stored, locally in their settop box, on the
> web, or in a service provider's network. A history of collaboration with Google to
> provide YouTube access via TiVo, and to sell market research data to Google, makes
> this an interesting thought for TiVo.
> 
> We continue to see a wide range of possibilities for TiVo shares. Our BUY and $13
> PT had been predicated as a low-risk play on the possibility of a settlement with Dish
> Network. At this point, however, it appears that the time for settlement is past, and TiVo
> will either win or lose the patent decision. We still see the decision as a tossup. Our PT
> reflects a scenario-based sum-of-the-parts analysis. We see TiVo shares in the worst case
> worth close to $5, and in the best case worth $28. Risks include the possibility of a
> meaningful legal setback, or settlements on terms that prove disappointing to investors.


Much of the meeting was TiVo trying to calm the investors, without committing to the new DirecTiVo other than saying this year, even implying if not this year they would still receive minimum guarantees. But Lazard took it beyond what TiVo said, by "sensing" it coming out "in weeks".


----------



## Alan Gordon

jacmyoung said:


> Much of the meeting was TiVo trying to calm the investors, without committing to the new DirecTiVo other than saying this year, even implying if not this year they would still receive minimum guarantees. But Lazard took it beyond what TiVo said, by "sensing" it coming out "in weeks".


Would be great news if the TiVo guy said it instead of Lazard...

~Alan


----------



## Richierich

If it were coming out in "weeks" as in a month or two, then you would think that TiVo would have been excited to showcase at least a working mockup or Prototype of the New MPEG-4 Directivo DVR. There was NADA, Nothing and even no hints so why wouldn't you try to stir up excitement for this new product by at least Demoing a Prototype to at least have something to show and talk about.

DUH!!! Bad Strategy if it is indeed coming out in "weeks" but I rather doubt it.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

> Our sense was that the TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV could be coming in weeks, although Chopra could not be that specific.


That hardly sounds like it's set in stone.


----------



## Richierich

Stuart Sweet said:


> That hardly sounds like it's set in stone.


"Our sense was that the TiVo HD DVR for DirecTV could be coming in weeks, although Chopra could not be that specific." That sounds like a non-committal statement meant to be Vague and Arbitrary while sounding Optimistic to the Untrained Eye which to me means it has to be more than 6 months out and probably more like a year.

Q1 2011!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> Programs that are _currently_ being recorded do have an *O* icon, but only in Now Playing and the To Do List.


That's incorrect!

Programs currently being recorded have the *O* icon in the Grid Guide. You are correct about the rest though.



Syzygy said:


> Also, I verified that there is no *[HD]* icon in the "List Guide", which is the one I always use.


Correct! I use the List Guide on the HR10-250 because the Grid Guide is so SLOW... but the TiVo Series 3 Grid Guide is as fast (or faster sometimes) than the HR2x, so I use it and only use the List Guide when I want to see ahead.

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Whose Series 3 prepaid will be running out this Summer...


----------



## grins

Well, harumph, I was hoping for a new DirecTiVo soon. What is the current speculation on the HR24 release date? June? September? 3 days before the new TiVo box?

thanks y'all


----------



## jacmyoung

Stuart Sweet said:


> That hardly sounds like it's set in stone.


I agree, I was just reporting it.


----------



## Jeremy W

grins said:


> What is the current speculation on the HR24 release date?


We have absolutely no information on the HR24 release date.


----------



## Doug Brott

grins said:


> Well, harumph, I was hoping for a new DirecTiVo soon. What is the current speculation on the HR24 release date? June? September? 3 days before the new TiVo box?
> 
> thanks y'all


This is of course NOT a thread about the HR24, so this will be the final word ..

There is no release date set for any new DIRECTV receivers (HR2x or TiVo) ..


----------



## Richierich

Use the Search Function for "HR24" and you will find tons of info about it and lots of speculation on it's release.


----------



## grins

Sorry Doug, but that's why I asked for speculation; the advanced speculators seem to be in this thread 

RR, this thread is the top hit for HR24, so...

Thanks again


----------



## ATARI

grins said:


> Sorry Doug, but that's why I asked for speculation; the advanced speculators seem to be in this thread
> 
> RR, this thread is the top hit for HR24, so...
> 
> Thanks again


So it is.

And the second one is the D* media server thread (which is not the HR24).


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Maybe that's because there's no news of the HR24 either.


----------



## grins

Way down in the 7th hit, there's this bit of speculation from Ken_F, mentioning late Feb early March for the HR24 in the penultimate paragraph.

And with that, I retreat into my lurker's cave


----------



## DMG

After seeing the iPad introduction keynote yesterday I'm wondering/hoping/praying that TiVo introduces the ability to do remote viewing on the iPad. That would be incredible!


----------



## Jeremy W

DMG said:


> After seeing the iPad introduction keynote yesterday I'm wondering/hoping/praying that TiVo introduces the ability to do remote viewing on the iPad. That would be incredible!


Unless I've missed something, Tivo doesn't even have the ability to do remote viewing on a PC. Why would they introduce the ability for a niche device before the PC?


----------



## JBernardK

Remote viewing no, but remote playback of recorded programs, yes. You could use a slingbox and hook it up to your TiVo or even your Directtv receiver and view on iPad.


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> Remote viewing no, but remote playback of recorded programs, yes.


What's the difference?


JBernardK said:


> You could use a slingbox and hook it up to your TiVo or even your Directtv receiver and view on iPad.


You could hook a SlingBox up to anything and watch it from most mobile devices, but that's irrelevant.


----------



## JBernardK

Jeremy W said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> You could hook a SlingBox up to anything and watch it from most mobile devices, but that's irrelevant.


You can watch watch recorded programs from your PC but not live programs--that is the difference.

Why is it irrelevant? He wanted to watch TV on his iPad and that is good solution.


----------



## Jeremy W

JBernardK said:


> You can watch watch recorded programs from your PC but not live programs--that is the difference.


Tivo offers remote viewing of recorded programs? This is the first I've heard of that...


----------



## tonyd79

Jeremy W said:


> Tivo offers remote viewing of recorded programs? This is the first I've heard of that...


No, you can download them to your PC (if the copy guard setting, whatever it is called) is not set and carry your PC anywhere you want to go.

There is no live streaming from the Tivo. Dish/Sling, yes. Tivo no. Unless it is a hack I haven't heard of.

BTW, I gave up on transferring to the PC from the TIVO since Comcast copy protects everything except network TV.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Jeremy W said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> You could hook a SlingBox up to anything and watch it from most mobile devices, but that's irrelevant.


It's doubly irrelevant since the SlingPlayer for iPhone doesn't even let you use 3G.


----------



## Deezul

JBernardK said:


> You can watch watch recorded programs from your PC but not live programs--that is the difference.


Sure you can, but it's kludgy. I sent my D* box to record a show, then started watching it on my PC. It was more or less live, maybe a few seconds delay.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Well, apparently TiVo is making headway in ONE of their partnerships:

Beta Testers For RCN

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

I was talking with my Grandmother earlier today about how I wanted to upgrade her SD-TiVo to HD once the new TiVo comes out... and knowing there was no information about the new TiVo in some of the usual places, I still did some Google searches just to pass the time while I'm waiting on someone... and I found some interesting comments:

Latest Update on the DirecTV TiVo HD

While that post was from last month, DirecTV has even gone so far as to say the first half of this year multiple times this past week on Twitter... which means nothing since it was originally supposed to come out in 2009.... but I thought it was interesting that they are saying the 1st half of 2010 given how we've heard nothing but "2010" lately...

~Alan


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> I was talking with my Grandmother earlier today about how I wanted to upgrade her SD-TiVo to HD once the new TiVo comes out... and knowing there was no information about the new TiVo in some of the usual places, I still did some Google searches just to pass the time while I'm waiting on someone... and I found some interesting comments:
> 
> Latest Update on the DirecTV TiVo HD
> 
> While that post was from last month, DirecTV has even gone so far as to say the first half of this year multiple times this past week on Twitter... which means nothing since it was originally supposed to come out in 2009.... but I thought it was interesting that they are saying the 1st half of 2010 given how we've heard nothing but "2010" lately...
> 
> ~Alan


Keep in mind that the folks tweeting for DirecTV are marketing folks. They are going to type in whatever was on the last glossy sheet they received. I would not consider this an update or validation. I would consider it no more prescient than timing announced in Access magazine (which we proved last year was made inaccurate by a long publishing lead-time).


----------



## bonscott87

gregjones said:


> Keep in mind that the folks tweeting for DirecTV are marketing folks. They are going to type in whatever was on the last glossy sheet they received. I would not consider this an update or validation. I would consider it no more prescient than timing announced in Access magazine (which we proved last year was made inaccurate by a long publishing lead-time).


Exactly. Last year they were tweeting it would be out in 2009. Until Tivo officially announces a new date then the "official" word is still early 2010.

However we know better then that.


----------



## Alan Gordon

gregjones said:


> Keep in mind that the folks tweeting for DirecTV are marketing folks. They are going to type in whatever was on the last glossy sheet they received. I would not consider this an update or validation. I would consider it no more prescient than timing announced in Access magazine (which we proved last year was made inaccurate by a long publishing lead-time).





Alan Gordon said:


> While that post was from last month, DirecTV has even gone so far as to say the first half of this year multiple times this past week on Twitter... *which means nothing* since it was originally supposed to come out in 2009.... but I thought it was interesting that they are saying the 1st half of 2010 given how we've heard nothing but "2010" lately...


I bolded and underlined the above for effect.

I was bored... I noticed that on Twitter, and I posted it... stating that it meant nothing.

I did not consider it to be an update or validation (????)... especially the latter. Why would I consider it validation?! 



bonscott87 said:


> Until Tivo officially announces a new date then the "official" word is still early 2010.
> 
> However we know better then that.


While I don't expect it in the next few months... which is my definition of early 2010, I still have to ask: We do?

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

bonscott87 said:


> Exactly. Last year they were tweeting it would be out in 2009. Until Tivo officially announces a new date then the "official" word is still early 2010.
> 
> However we know better then that.


Actually, those of us at CES who spoke firsthand with the Tivo folks there (as reported) firmly responded with a "still some time in 2010" when asked for a delivery date for any new DirecTV Tivobox. Since that came in January...it's the most recent confirmation of any Tivo-stated public target.

That was also stated the end of last year a number of times....so "*some time in 2010*" is the only verified and confirmed date we have...nothing more specific.


----------



## mrac

Here is link to the TiVo site stating "It's official!"

http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/index.html


----------



## hdtvfan0001

mrac said:


> Here is link to the TiVo site stating "It's official!"
> 
> http://www.tivo.com/dvr-products/tivo-partners/tivo-directv/index.html


Yup...there's that "in 2010" again....


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Has anyone counted how many times that link has shown up?



Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> Has anyone counted how many times that link has shown up?
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


It's been there since I signed up during the past decade in 2008. 

Well before CES 2009.


----------



## codespy

I signed up last decade too, not one tweet back.

Does TiVo manufacture their own standalone boxes or if not what company does it for them?

The DirecTiVo's had several manufacturers.


----------



## loudo

codespy said:


> I signed up last decade too, not one tweet back.
> 
> Does TiVo manufacture their own standalone boxes or if not what company does it for them?
> 
> The DirecTiVo's had several manufacturers.


They are made for them by various manufacturers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiVo#Hardware_anatomy


----------



## DMG

Stuart Sweet said:


> It's doubly irrelevant since the SlingPlayer for iPhone doesn't even let you use 3G.


It does now 

I expect Slingbox on the iPad to be HUGE and there's no doubt that the DVR providers need to embrace a model where the content they store will be viewed on something besides a TV that is directly connected to the DVR.

Of course over time (5? 10? 15? years) it will probably be mostly irrelevant because streaming Internet delivery will be the primary way we receive content.

David


----------



## RAD

DMG said:


> It does now
> 
> I expect Slingbox on the iPad to be HUGE and there's no doubt that the DVR providers need to embrace a model where the content they store will be viewed on something besides a TV that is directly connected to the DVR.
> 
> Of course over time (5? 10? 15? years) it will probably be mostly irrelevant because streaming Internet delivery will be the primary way we receive content.
> 
> David


Unless you live in an area where AT&T or TWC are your only ISP's and they implement usage caps and metered billing.


----------



## Sixto

"TiVo has... something to announce March 2 in NYC":http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/tivo-has-something-to-announce-march-2-in-nyc/​Probably not DirecTV related but interesting none-the-less.


----------



## Ken_F

CrunchGear reported this:



> The most important: a move to full HD menus, improved search, and the phasing out of Series 2 hardware.


[Source]


----------



## Hoosier205

Ken_F said:


> CrunchGear reported this:
> 
> [Source]


It's too bad DirecTV couldn't think of that themselves. Heaven forbid they actually utilize the additional screen space available.


----------



## Jeremy W

Hoosier205 said:


> It's too bad DirecTV couldn't think of that themselves. Heaven forbid they actually utilize the additional screen space available.


We have no idea what the GUI will look like on DirecTV's next-gen hardware. They haven't said anything about it yet.


----------



## Hoosier205

Jeremy W said:


> We have no idea what the GUI will look like on DirecTV's next-gen hardware. They haven't said anything about it yet.


I know. It's just too bad they haven't already done something with the current-gen hardware GUI.


----------



## Jeremy W

Hoosier205 said:


> It's just too bad they haven't already done something with the current-gen hardware GUI.


Look how long it's taken Tivo to do this, and DVR development is all they do. I'm sure an HD GUI is coming to DirecTV, and I'm pretty sure we'll see it this year.


----------



## celticpride

Someone over at tivo community says the anouncement is D* related,well i'm sure we'll hear more rumors between now & then.


----------



## Doug Brott

celticpride said:


> Someone over at tivo community says the anouncement is D* related,well i'm sure we'll hear more rumors between now & then.


It would be nice to get a definitive date .. everything to this point has been conjecture .. I've already given up on my first projected date even though it hasn't occurred yet.


----------



## Brennok

celticpride said:


> Someone over at tivo community says the anouncement is D* related,well i'm sure we'll hear more rumors between now & then.


I know I saw that as one of the possible predictions, but nothing to confirm it. I could see them doing it though as something like here is our new TiVo with the new HD UI and it will be available also on the new HD DirecTiVo available later this year.


----------



## houskamp

Doug Brott said:


> It would be nice to get a definitive date .. everything to this point has been conjecture .. I've already given up on my first projected date even though it hasn't occurred yet.


 SOON :lol:


----------



## loudo

houskamp said:


> SOON :lol:


I was wondering how long it would be before we saw that word. :eek2:


----------



## bonscott87

I have a feeling it will just be their new GUI...Tivo Premier I think they call it?

However, if they don't announce details on the new DirecTivo HD box I think it's a *really* safe bet that it ain't happening this year.


----------



## Brennok

TiVo Premiere is expected just to be the new DVR based off the instruction sheet. I don't know if there is a codename for the new UI. 

Some sites are reporting we may see a qwerty remote and some type of slingbox type features.


----------



## NFLnut

inkahauts said:


> You know, I haven;t had any issues for recordings in probably 2 years.... I am not doubting you have had issues, but don't lump e in and say we all do....
> 
> What shows has your hr not recorded lately that a tivo would have?


Well, I can speak for myself, that I have had this HR20 since August 2006 and it is nearly as buggy and glitchy as it was when it was new. It is SLLLLOOOOWWWW to respond to button-presses and often doesn't respond at all. My 9 year old DirecTiVo with the stock drive ALWAYS responds instantaneously.

I don't care if they introduce software that downloads every piece of video from the internet, washes my car at night, and makes my laundry brighter. I *want* a DirecTV HD-DVR that merely instantaneously responds to button presses. And after 4 years of constant vaporware promises from DirecTV, and their DVR team breaking previously fixed bugs in order to give us "new features," I am pretty certain that will NEVER happen!

Count me in as anxiously waiting for the new HD-DirecTiVo that gives me mpeg4 recordings. TiVo knows how to code a DVR. DirecTV does *NOT*!


----------



## tonyd79

NFLnut said:


> Well, I can speak for myself, that I have had this HR20 since August 2006 and it is nearly as buggy and glitchy as it was when it was new. It is SLLLLOOOOWWWW to respond to button-presses and often doesn't respond at all. My 9 year old DirecTiVo with the stock drive ALWAYS responds instantaneously.
> 
> I don't care if they introduce software that downloads every piece of video from the internet, washes my car at night, and makes my laundry brighter. I *want* a DirecTV HD-DVR that merely instantaneously responds to button presses. And after 4 years of constant vaporware promises from DirecTV, and their DVR team breaking previously fixed bugs in order to give us "new features," I am pretty certain that will NEVER happen!
> 
> Count me in as anxiously waiting for the new HD-DirecTiVo that gives me mpeg4 recordings. TiVo knows how to code a DVR. DirecTV does *NOT*!


Hahahaha.

I have a "current" Tivo in an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10.

Good luck hoping that a new DirecTV Tivo will solve your "problems."

BTW, my HD Tivo has rebooted and hung more than my HR boxes in the last two years. HD does funny things to DVRs.

I love reading these threads just to see how many people thing Tivo has it all solved. They do not. Their current software is buggy and slow and inconsistent and updates have pretty much trickled down to one a year.


----------



## Syzygy

NFLnut said:


> ... I *want* a DirecTV HD-DVR that merely instantaneously responds to button presses. And after 4 years of constant vaporware promises from DirecTV, and their DVR team breaking previously fixed bugs in order to give us "new features," I am pretty certain that will NEVER happen!
> 
> Count me in as anxiously waiting for the new HD-DirecTiVo that gives me mpeg4 recordings. TiVo knows how to code a DVR. DirecTV does *NOT*!





tonyd79 said:


> Ha. I have ... an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10. Good luck hoping that a new DirecTV Tivo will solve your "problems." [M]y HD Tivo has rebooted and hung more than my HR boxes in the last two years. *HD does funny things to DVRs*...


Well put, NFLnut! I agree totally.

Tony, I think it may be MPEG-4 that does funny things to DVRs. Even so, I'm sure TiVo's engineers can code rings around D*'s. And as for those infrequent updates: Maybe each of your HD TiVo's updates has been thoroughly vetted, so that the update doesn't create more problems than it solves!


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> Hahahaha.
> 
> I have a "current" Tivo in an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10.
> 
> Good luck hoping that a new DirecTV Tivo will solve your "problems."
> 
> BTW, my HD Tivo has rebooted and hung more than my HR boxes in the last two years. HD does funny things to DVRs.
> 
> I love reading these threads just to see how many people thing Tivo has it all solved. They do not. Their current software is buggy and slow and inconsistent and updates have pretty much trickled down to one a year.


I have a TiVo Series 3... which is not only faster than my HR10-250, but more often that not, almost always consistenly faster than my HR23-700 & HR20-700, nor do I experience any of the problems you speak of with my TiVo Series 3.

~Alan


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> [...] I have a "current" Tivo in an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10 [...]





Alan Gordon said:


> I have a TiVo Series 3... which is not only faster than my HR10-250, but more often that not, almost always consistenly faster than my HR23-700 & HR20-700 [...]


FWIW, *Tony's* TiVo HD is based on the same Broadcom chipset as the HR21/22/23. *Alan's* TiVo Series 3 is based on the same Broadcom chipset as the HR20's.


----------



## DMG

A friend at work is friends with two people who work at TiVo, one of whom works on the new DirecTivo. According to him, the March TiVo announcement will include the new DirecTivo.

I take this all with a grain of salt since it is a friend of a friend, etc. But I am hopeful that we'll have some actual information soon, rather than essentially no information for the last ~year.


----------



## Gunnyman

Getting tired of waiting. The new HDTiVo is Duke Nukem Forever.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I think that's actually a pretty accurate statement.


----------



## oldfantom

Gunnyman said:


> Getting tired of waiting. The new HDTiVo is Duke Nukem Forever.


Wired MAgazine will be thrilled. They seem lost in their annual vaporware article now that the Duke is dead (long live the Duke).


----------



## NFLnut

tonyd79 said:


> Hahahaha.
> 
> I have a "current" Tivo in an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10.
> 
> Good luck hoping that a new DirecTV Tivo will solve your "problems."


The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. The HR2*'s DON'T!

Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

NFLnut said:


> The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. *The HR2*'s DON'T*!
> 
> Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


Interesting....my HR20-700's (2) have been working fine now for almost 4 years, as has my HR21-200 for about 2 years now.

In contrast - the HR10-250 I had prior to that was bug-laden, and caused me the reverse frustration you seem to have.

Assuming the new Tivobox is released in 2010 as speculated and previosuly announced....it will indeed be interesting to see if it is the all-saving device some think it might be.


----------



## slimoli

I am a tivo fan, had the HR10-250 and the S3 with cable. At this point, I would say the HR2x is as good if not better than the TiVo. The MRV is working very well and the implementation is better than the "downloading' system. TiVo takes a looong time to add features and I bet the first version will be very basic. A good question is how is the TiVo/Comcast setbox doing ? I heard awful things about the performance. 

I have 3 HR22-100 and don't have anything to complain about. The new features already available in the NR are very good and will get better soon. The new receiver (HR24 ?) will probably be faster and work even better with MRV.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

NFLnut said:


> The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. The HR2*'s DON'T!
> 
> Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


Have you actually used an HR20? I sold my 2 HR10-250's (for which I paid $999 each) years ago and I've never regretted it.

Keep in mind that I was a TiVo fanboy and was actually a beta tester way back when we first got 2 tuners.


----------



## loudo

NFLnut said:


> The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. The HR2*'s DON'T!
> 
> Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


Wow!! Your lucky. I have two HR20s and they work just fine. I have a HR10-250 that doesn't receive any MPG4 HD, making it useless to me.


----------



## Alan Gordon

loudo said:


> Wow!! Your lucky. I have two HR20s and they work just fine. I have a HR10-250 that doesn't receive any MPG4 HD, making it useless to me.


The lack of MPEG4 is most likely due to the fact that MPEG4 HD didn't exist on DirecTV when the HR10-250 came out... and DirecTV apparently didn't let TiVo make a MPEG4 version to replace it. 

~Alan


----------



## loudo

Alan Gordon said:


> The lack of MPEG4 is most likely due to the fact that MPEG4 HD didn't exist on DirecTV when the HR10-250 came out... and DirecTV apparently didn't let TiVo make a MPEG4 version to replace it.
> 
> ~Alan


That will be corrected with the new unit.


----------



## Alan Gordon

loudo said:


> That will be corrected with the new unit.


Exactly! 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

With the rumor being that TiVo will announce something next week, I get curiouser and curiouser what hardware reference spec they use, HR23-style or something newer. Not even sure we'll know until someone actually gets one.


----------



## Richierich

loudo said:


> Wow!! Your lucky. I have two HR20s and they work just fine. I have a HR10-250 that doesn't receive any MPG4 HD, making it useless to me.


Yeah, I noticed that my 2 HR10-250s don't receive MPEG-4 either so they are just collecting dust!!!


----------



## Shades228

Sixto said:


> With the rumor being that TiVo will announce something next week, I get curiouser and curiouser what hardware reference spec they use, HR23-style or something newer. Not even sure we'll know until someone actually gets one.


I can't see them using anything other than one of the two broadcom processors that are already used for DirecTV. My guess would be they use the same one as the HR20 as that's what they use in their series 3. They could of course use something different but I just see more delays, and bugs, in using something that's not currently supported.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> With the rumor being that TiVo will announce something next week, I get curiouser and curiouser what hardware reference spec they use, HR23-style or something newer. Not even sure we'll know until someone actually gets one.


I'm still anxious to see what comes from that press conference.

If TiVo gets up there and simply announces new products (TiVo Premiere, DirecTiVo), they will have overhyped it. If it's a new partnership with Hulu, they will have overhyped it. If it's TV's with TiVo built in, that's pretty cool, but rife with problems. If it's a new GUI with additional feature set, it could go either way.

I'm anxious, but I just don't see me coming away from it without being underwhelmed. It would be great though if they at least start talking about their plans with the DirecTiVo (and "TiVo Premiere") while there. That would at least make me happy.

As far as someone getting one, I imagine we'll know the details prior to someone getting one, but depending on pricing, they can pretty much count on me for two right away... possibly three if my desire to throw my HR23-700 under a bus this weekend lasts much longer...

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

richierich said:


> Yeah, I noticed that my 2 HR10-250s don't receive MPEG-4 either so they are just collecting dust!!!


Ha, ha. (I hope you had your tongue in your cheek.)

My HR10-250 gets a lot of use, by my wife, because (1) it still gets local OTA HD, (2) SD looks pretty good because it's attached to a fairly small 30" Sony tube HDTV with "Digital Image Creation", which really does enhance SD, (3) LIF and LMN aren't in HD yet on DirecTV, and most importantly ... (4) she likes the quick and friendly TiVo interface much more than the HR2x.


----------



## wingrider01

NFLnut said:


> The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. The HR2*'s DON'T!
> 
> Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


mine do, just what exactly does not work on yours? Will be a fairly expensive boat anchor when Directv asks for them back though


----------



## ATARI

TiVo's basically no-show (no news at least) at CES has put my anticipation of this upcoming press conference somewhere between "I don't care" and "I could not care less".

My HRs have been working at about 99% reliably, which is at least as good as any computer I've ever used. And I remember how buggy the first SD Directivos were. I expect the new ones to be less buggy than that, but it will take them a while to be as solid as the HRs are now.


----------



## bonscott87

wingrider01 said:


> mine do, just what exactly does not work on yours? Will be a fairly expensive boat anchor when Directv asks for them back though


Some people had problems *4 years ago* and have no current reference of experience but are still haters. Many were upset mainly with no DLB and may not even realize that the HR2x series has had DLB for a while (over a year now?) I don't know if that's his problem but it is a common thing. HR2x certainly isn't perfect and not a solution for everyone (and neither is Tivo) but there are still some out there with Tivo blinders on that can't look past and see anything else.

Personally I think Windows 7 Media Center blows them both away, but that's off topic.


----------



## Alan Gordon

ATARI said:


> TiVo's basically no-show (no news at least) at CES has put my anticipation of this upcoming press conference somewhere between "I don't care" and "I could care less".


Though there were no public announcements, Dave Zatz has said that TiVo spoke to him at CES about next week's announcement. I don't know if it was him, or someone else, but I'm wanting to say I read that others were told of the announcement as well.

I'm skeptical of TiVo's announcement as well, but not because of the no news at CES.

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

ATARI said:


> TiVo's ... upcoming press conference ... "I could care less"...


"I could care less" hits a nerve with me. Sort of a pet peeve. Usually what is meant is "I couldn't care less" -- which is the opposite.


----------



## bdcottle

NFLnut said:


> The HR10 is the "latest" DirecTiVo. And like all previous DirecTiVos, it works. The HR2*'s DON'T!
> 
> Again .. I am anxiously awaiting the next DirecTiVo, and I will then relegate this HR20 boat-anchor to dragging the bottom of the local waterways.


You're a lot more patient than I am. My commitment is up March 17. I have already purchased a VIP722 and dish so I can get rid of this pos HR21-700. When the new DirecTivo HD comes out and if it is reliable then I will probably switch to it. That is if I can get it without a commitment. D* won't get me to fall for that one again. Two years stuck with a box that has gotten progressively worse while I'm chained to it with a commitment. Not again. In the meantime, by owning my VIP722 and dish I can turn my service on and off at will.


----------



## Richierich

Why don't you just call Directv and tell them your HR21-700 quit working and get a Replacement DVR??? A lot cheaper than switching!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Some people had problems *4 years ago* and have no current reference of experience but are still haters.


I don't hate the HR2x DVRs... I like SOME of their features better than TiVos, but overall, I still find the TiVo to do more of what I'd like it to, both better and faster. I've said it before, I'll say it again, everyone uses a DVR differently... and for some, the HR2x is better for their uses, and for others, the TiVo is better for their uses.



bonscott87 said:


> Many were upset mainly with no DLB and may not even realize that the HR2x series has had DLB for a while (over a year now?)


That's incorrect. TiVo's have DLB, and DirecTV Plus DVRs have DoublePlay.

I used DLB on TiVo quite a lot (and still do on my TiVo units), but I didn't really have a problem with the lack of DLB on the HR2x DVRs, and still don't, but I have only used DoublePlay once, and never intend on using it again.



bonscott87 said:


> HR2x certainly isn't perfect and not a solution for everyone (and neither is Tivo) but there are still some out there with Tivo blinders on that can't look past and see anything else.


While I'm partly in agreement with you, the simple fact is, if there are people on here who prefer the HR2x and do not like TiVo, there are those on here who prefer the TiVo, and do not like the HR2x.

I've been quite vocal about my opinion over the years in my preference for TiVo, but that over the years, the margin of which has decreased.



bonscott87 said:


> Personally I think Windows 7 Media Center blows them both away, but that's off topic.


I still want to get an OTA tuner for my computer to play with that... but I haven't gotten around to purchasing it yet...

~Alan


----------



## bdcottle

richierich said:


> Why don't you just call Directv and tell them your HR21-700 quit working and get a Replacement DVR??? A lot cheaper than switching!!!


The problems I have with the HR are design problems. Will the replacement fix the 50 series limit, will it fix this.


----------



## Syzygy

bonscott87 said:


> Some people had problems *4 years ago* and have no current reference of experience but are still haters...


Scott's post is an attempt to minimize complaints about the HR2x and denigrate the complainers. No doubt, however, Scott can still recall my 11-03-09 response to his post about "die hard Tivoites" in last quarter's edition of this thread: *A partial list of my outstanding issues*.

For a more complete list, see the 09-02-09 thread *A compendium of HR2x software problems*. None of these problems has been addressed.

I regard missed recordings as a huge problem. (My HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.) My HD DirecTiVo never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to.

But on a day-to-day basis, the sluggish response stands out as a constant irritation.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> *A partial list of my outstanding issues*.





Syzygy said:


> • Search results include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get.


DirecTV has recently added Smart Search... a feature I'm sure you have used. Well, guest what, TiVo currently has TiVo Search in public beta. TiVo Search is basically Smart Search. Sure DirecTV has some things different than TiVo, and vice versa... things which I wish both units did (in their own ways).

TiVo Search includes VOD as well. Sure, you can use regular Search as well, but I suspect it's only a matter of time before TiVo Search takes over and becomes the only Search function.

I'd be HIGHLY surprised if the new DirecTiVo did not have TiVo Search included... maybe not at launch, but most likely soon after.

Personally, I'm glad to have the VOD result included, but like you, I hate how the PPV results are done. I would not have a problem with it if they bunched them all together in ONE folder, but when I did a recent Smart Search for Kristen Bell on my HR23-700, I got over 500 results (due to "Couples Retreat") and had to scroll (very slowly) to the bottom to find what I was looking for.

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> TiVo Search includes VOD as well. Sure, you can use regular Search as well, but I suspect it's only a matter of time before TiVo Search takes over and becomes the only Search function.


That's sad news to me, Alan, but thanks for the info anyhoo. At least TiVo Search can optionally exclude PPV, right? I hope it honors your own CIG list. And I hope your suspicion that regular Search will disappear is not borne out.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> For a more complete list, see the 09-02-09 thread *A compendium of HR2x software problems*. None of these problems has been addressed.





Syzygy said:


> • Big separate partition to hold PPV/VOD shows you'll never buy


I'd be surprised if the new DirecTiVo doesn't have the same partition. While I'd like the option to "OPT OUT", I think it's a really SMART idea of DirecTV's.



Syzygy said:


> • Unsupported add-on disk storage (eSATA) disables the internal disk drive and is subject to erasure


Unfortunately, TiVo's implementation is worse. You can use the eSATA in conjunction with the internal drive, but then it records a show to both drives. If the power goes out, you lose everything.

While I'd LOVE for the eSATA drive to simply be used as a storage device (in other words, you can move programs over to the drive if you're running out of room on your internal drive), and the programs appear on the Playlist/Now Playing List similar to the way they do now when using MRV.

However, between DirecTV's implementation and TiVo's, I strongly prefer DirecTV's implementation. When the new DirecTiVo comes out, I'd LOVE for it to be DirecTV's implementation, but I won't hold my breath.



Syzygy said:


> • The progress bar covers 15% of the screen (TiVo's covers about 3%)


Though I can't remember how it is when RWing or FFing, the stand-alone TiVo bar when paused (and I think when playing) is now larger as well. You can hit the down arrow to make it smaller, but I generally leave it larger because I like why TiVo did it.

TiVo gives you an option to "EXPLORE THIS PROGRAM" (or something like that) via TiVo Search. You can check out Cast Filmographies (not quite to the extent of DirecTV's unfortunately) and an Episode Guide (if it's a TV series) which is real handy.

The Episode Guide is an exceptionally handy feature as I just started catching up with a new TV series... and some of the recordings I have are reruns, so they're out of order. Sure, I could check IMDB, but this way I can check it without getting up (lazy, right?). It can also come in handy because you can set up Wishlists for specific episodes through this feature.



Syzygy said:


> • Closed Captioning uses only low-resolution fonts with jagged edges (maybe "Subtitling" is better)


I hate DirecTV subtitles... and much prefer CC on the HR23-700. Try switching fonts, and playing around... as I prefer the CC on the HR23-700 to the TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> That's sad news to me, Alan, but thanks for the info anyhoo. At least TiVo Search can optionally exclude PPV, right? I hope it honors your own CIG list. And I hope your suspicion that regular Search will disappear is not borne out.


As my TiVo Series 3 is OTA only, I can't comment about PPV, but yes, as with any TiVo, *YOU* pick which channels you want to get results from. Whether or not the new DirecTiVo will have that, I don't know.

As for the VOD results, I don't understand your disappointment, as it doesn't clutter up the results like PPV? *I personally like it*. The only issue I have with TiVo Search is that it starts up slower (due to graphics) than regular Find Programs To Record, but once it's up (a matter of seconds slower), there's not a whole lot of difference, and it's still in Beta, so it's possible it may get better in the future.

~Alan


----------



## cebbigh

I have one major criteria for my decision if I choose to go with the new Tivo. Syzygy hit my first wish on the head: Searches that obey a list of channels under the customer's control. If that isn't allowed I'm not interested. I can think of no good reason why the HR2x doesn't permit it. Booleans are fine, but until the cchan command allows multiple groupings of channels it doesn't do what I want.

I had Tivo for about 1 year with Fios and I can honestly say there are things I like better about the HR2x. Like still being able to see a picture while messing around with the remote checking what else is on. 

Neither Tivo or the HR2x do a good job with favorites lists. What I'd like is full control with at least 4 lists like Dish has. The HR2x prearranged categories would be okay but someone isn't doing their housekeeping very well because there are 6 HD channels that don't populate in any of them: HDNM, HGTVHD, COMHD, UHD, HDTV, ABCFHD. If they could fix this and allow me to blank out channels during searches I'd be a happy camper.


----------



## ATARI

Syzygy said:


> "I could care less" hits a nerve with me. Sort of a pet peeve. Usually what is meant is "I couldn't care less" -- which is the opposite.


Fixed.

Seeing the graphic helped.


----------



## Richierich

bdcottle said:


> The problems I have with the HR are design problems. Will the replacement fix the 50 series limit, will it fix this.


That is why I have 2 HR23-700s in my Den so I have 100 Series Limit and lots of space as I added a 2 TB to one of them and a 1 TB to the other. So I can record 4 things at once or watch one and record 3.


----------



## bonscott87

Syzygy said:


> Scott's post is an attempt to minimize complaints about the HR2x and denigrate the complainers. No doubt, however, Scott can still recall my 11-03-09 response to his post about "die hard Tivoites" in last quarter's edition of this thread: *A partial list of my outstanding issues*.


Not at all. It's aimed squarely and directly at the few who haven't touched a DirecTV DVR in 2-3 years and still complain about them as if nothing has changed.

Either way I have no horse in this race anymore, I dropped DirecTV over a month ago and I'm OTA and streaming only.  I don't care how either DVR does in the future.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

NFLnut said:


> Well, I can speak for myself, that I have had this HR20 since August 2006 and it is nearly as buggy and glitchy as it was when it was new. It is SLLLLOOOOWWWW to respond to button-presses and often doesn't respond at all. My 9 year old DirecTiVo with the stock drive ALWAYS responds instantaneously.
> 
> I don't care if they introduce software that downloads every piece of video from the internet, washes my car at night, and makes my laundry brighter. I *want* a DirecTV HD-DVR that merely instantaneously responds to button presses. And after 4 years of constant vaporware promises from DirecTV, and their DVR team breaking previously fixed bugs in order to give us "new features," I am pretty certain that will NEVER happen!
> 
> Count me in as anxiously waiting for the new HD-DirecTiVo that gives me mpeg4 recordings. TiVo knows how to code a DVR. DirecTV does *NOT*!


If I recall correctly, my HR10-250 was taking about 3 minutes to validate a record request. And forget re-ordering season passes - that could take up to a half hour!


----------



## qprhooligan

Sure are a lot of HR* receiver fans in this thread that is about Tivo units. Don't worry folks DTV isn't going to stop making them even if tivo units become available. I for one like tivo better and will switch, if that upsets you too bad. I liked my old tivo better than I like my HR21, so I will try the new receiver and if it isn't as good I'll go back to the HR.


----------



## Steve

wilbur_the_goose said:


> If I recall correctly, my HR10-250 was taking about 3 minutes to validate a record request. And forget re-ordering season passes - that could take up to a half hour!


I found my HR10's to be an order of magnitude more responsive after the 6.x update. IIRC, re-ordering 35-40 SP's took 15-30 seconds, down from several minutes under 3.x.

I was pretty impressed by the speed-up, considering the 166 mhz CPU speed and relatively small amount of RAM found in those boxes.


----------



## loudo

qprhooligan said:


> Sure are a lot of HR* receiver fans in this thread that is about Tivo units. Don't worry folks DTV isn't going to stop making them even if tivo units become available. I for one like tivo better and will switch, if that upsets you too bad. I liked my old tivo better than I like my HR21, so I will try the new receiver and if it isn't as good I'll go back to the HR.


I think there are more people that are in a wait and see mode. My old TIVO had features that I liked as well as ones I disliked, and the same goes for my current HR20s. I know I will wait and see what features the unit has, and how much more is the TIVO unit going to cost me. Also, when it first comes out I am sure it will like any other new receiver, have some bugs in it that will get worked out over a period of time. I am not ready to plug one in right away. Kind of like, people used to think Toyota made a good car, but many have a different opinion about that recently.

Another thing to take into consideration. Many of us have the no charge DVR fee, with the older Premier package. If we go from our HR2X receiver to the TIVO unit how much more will that bring up our monthly bill.

You can put me in the "Wait and See" column.


----------



## Alan Gordon

wilbur_the_goose said:


> If I recall correctly, my HR10-250 was taking about 3 minutes to validate a record request. And forget re-ordering season passes - that could take up to a half hour!


It doesn't take me very long to validate a record request, so I can't comment on that.

You are correct regarding the Season Pass Manager. My HR20-700 and HR23-700 are not only consistently faster than my HR10-250, but by a considerable margin. They also beat the TiVo Series, but by a considerably SMALLER margin.

The HR20-700 and HR23-700 are also considerably faster than my HR10-250 when using GRID GUIDE. The TiVo Series 3 is Grid Guide is probably about equal to my HR23-700, maybe a little faster, but is probably about equal to the HR20-700.

Find Programs To Record is faster on my HR10-250 than my HR20-700/HR23-700, but TiVo Search on my TiVo Series 3 starts up slower than Smart Search on my HR20-700/HR23-700, but is faster using the on-screen keyboard than my HR23-700/HR20-700. The ability to use your remote to spell out what your looking for gives the HR2x DVRs the speed to beat the other TiVo DVRs if you're good at texting. Me, I'm probably faster using the on-screen keyboard.

My HR10-250 (and TiVo Series) are faster at everything else though.

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Who would buy a Toyota if he was car shopping...


----------



## ndole

Alan Gordon said:


> It doesn't take me very long to validate a record request, so I can't comment on that.
> 
> You are correct regarding the Season Pass Manager. My HR20-700 and HR23-700 are not only consistently faster than my HR10-250, but by a considerable margin. They also beat the TiVo Series, but by a considerably SMALLER margin.
> 
> The HR20-700 and HR23-700 are also considerably faster than my HR10-250 when using GRID GUIDE. The TiVo Series 3 is Grid Guide is probably about equal to my HR23-700, maybe a little faster, but is probably about equal to the HR20-700.
> 
> Find Programs To Record is faster on my HR10-250 than my HR20-700/HR23-700, but TiVo Search on my TiVo Series 3 starts up slower than Smart Search on my HR20-700/HR23-700, but is faster using the on-screen keyboard than my HR23-700/HR20-700. The ability to use your remote to spell out what your looking for gives the HR2x DVRs the speed to beat the other TiVo DVRs if you're good at texting. Me, I'm probably faster using the on-screen keyboard.
> 
> My HR10-250 (and TiVo Series) are faster at everything else though.
> 
> ~Alan<~~~~~~~~~~Who would buy a Toyota if he was car shopping...


:hb: Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

ndole_mbnd said:


> :hb: Alan


* THANK YOU! *​
~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who'd like to get off early enough to actually relax on his birthday...


----------



## ndole

..that might be what she said.


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm anxious, but I just don't see me coming away from it without being underwhelmed. It would be great though if they at least start talking about their plans with the DirecTiVo (and "TiVo Premiere") while there. That would at least make me happy.


Well based on everything I have read from various sites and just fun guessing. I doubt I won't be underwhelmed, but I figure we will have some of the following announcements.

- Tivo Premiere which runs a new UI and a newer broadcom chip on sale March 4th. This will also be the same unit which will be badged the Best Buy TiVo and RCN TiVo.
The TiVo Premiere will have a 320gb hard drive and a price at or below $250 with a cheaper model at Best Buy. The Best Buy model will have a higher subscription fee though to offset the hardware costs. The Premiere XL is less likely since they haven't really tried to clear out the XL as much so they may wait longer. I could also see them releasing the Premiere XL with a 1.5TB or 2TB drive at $599 since they dropped the XL to $499 MSRP. Best Buy does have them on clearance, but they aren't available online so you can only check by going in store. Amazon is still selling the XL at 399 and still has stock unlike the HD.

- Qwerty Remote
- Release date for DirecTivo
- more online content like crackle and possibly other sites with a similar model to Craspa which goes ad-supported in April 2010 in Australia. Very small chance this could be Hulu based off TiVo recently asked in a poll on facebook about it as a feature. 
- New Wireless N Adapter with Moca support
- more features on Tivo.com


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> Well based on everything I have read from various sites and just fun guessing. I doubt I won't be underwhelmed, but I figure we will have some of the following announcements.


*You're a lot more hopeful than I am...*​


Brennok said:


> - Tivo Premiere which runs a new UI and a newer broadcom chip on sale March 4th. This will also be the same unit which will be badged the Best Buy TiVo and RCN TiVo.


While there are rumors that TiVo will have a new GUI, we don't know if the TiVo Premiere will. Rumors, sure, but just rumors. I'd love for them to make SUBTLE changes... but just as long as they stay away from the ComcasTiVo GUI.

As for the RCN TiVo? Click Here



Brennok said:


> The TiVo Premiere will have a 320gb hard drive and a price at or below $250 with a cheaper model at Best Buy. The Best Buy model will have a higher subscription fee though to offset the hardware costs. The Premiere XL is less likely since they haven't really tried to clear out the XL as much so they may wait longer.


I wouldn't be surprised to see a larger hard drive in the Premiere, but I suspect the XL will simply have the same 1TB drive as the TiVo HD-XL.

The last thing TiVo needs is a higher DVR fee...



Brennok said:


> - Qwerty Remote


... more than likely there will eventually be an app for that... I'm sure.



Brennok said:


> - Release date for DirecTivo


I'd love for it to at least be mentioned...



Brennok said:


> - more online content like crackle and possibly other sites with a similar model to Craspa which goes ad-supported in April 2010 in Australia. Very small chance this could be Hulu based off TiVo recently asked in a poll on facebook about it as a feature.


I wonder how long it will be until TiVo adds VUDU now that Walmart has purchased them. I suspect we'll continue to see additional online services on the stand-alones (sadly, not on DirecTV).



Brennok said:


> - New Wireless N Adapter with Moca support


That's two things! We know a Wireless N adapter is coming though... just not necessarily next week....

~Alan


----------



## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> [...]You are correct regarding the Season Pass Manager. My HR20-700 and HR23-700 are not only consistently faster than my HR10-250, but by a considerable margin. They also beat the TiVo Series, but by a considerably SMALLER margin [...]


I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here, due to the difference in approaches.

Unless something's changed recently, the HR2x Series Manager doesn't completely update the TO DO List for hours or sometimes days after you re-order SL priorities. In fact, sometimes a re-ordered show will record correctly without ever showing up in TO DO. So even though you get back control of the HR2x UI immediately after re-ordering the Series Manager, it's difficult to determine when the task actually completed for comparison purposes.

TiVo makes you wait a few seconds, but immediately shows you the effect of any changes you've made. So any time you look at TO DO, you know exactly what will or won't record and can make further adjustments, if need be.


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> *You're a lot more hopeful than I am...*​


Nah if that was the case I would have said a 4+ tuner home server Tivo with streaming capabilities plus near instant transfers.  None of these announcements will really push me to buy now or really get me excited about a new TiVo.



Alan Gordon said:


> While there are rumors that TiVo will have a new GUI, we don't know if the TiVo Premiere will. Rumors, sure, but just rumors. I'd love for them to make SUBTLE changes... but just as long as they stay away from the ComcasTiVo GUI.


True but based off some of the tipsters to engadgethd and other sites they said the new UI started off as fixes for the series 3. They also said it was as fast as the UI was back on the series 2. This could mean potentially they also roll out the update to the series 3 models. While most companies want you to buy new hardware, TiVo loses money on hardware so it only makes sense if the series 3 models can support it as well as the tipsters claim to roll it out.

Don't forget there was the UI video on EngadgetHD back from 2008 so it has potentially been in the works for a while. I haven't seen the Comcast UI so it might just be that they are showing.



Alan Gordon said:


> As for the RCN TiVo? Click Here
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to see a larger hard drive in the Premiere, but I suspect the XL will simply have the same 1TB drive as the TiVo HD-XL.


I figure 320gb since that is what the RCN model was announced to have back when it was originally mentioned and also I believe the overseas models use 320gb now. If the Premiere has 320gb and the XL has 1TB it will make even less sense if the price gap is the same as the HD to HD XL. Then again it is TiVo.



Alan Gordon said:


> The last thing TiVo needs is a higher DVR fee...


I don't see this happening across the board but only on the Best Buy TiVo based off some survey screenshots I saw from TiVo. They didn't mention the Best Buy specifically but did mention things that pointed towards the direction. If I remember correctly, the month to month options they asked were hardware at 199 with 14.99, 149 with 16.99 or 99 with 19.99.

I agree though but until TiVo figures out a way to make money off the hardware I don't see it going away.



Alan Gordon said:


> ... more than likely there will eventually be an app for that... I'm sure.


I don't know how much I believe it, but if the UI is new and easy to add programs/apps onto it then it would make sense especially if they have noticed the popularity of other programs over Tivo Desktop.



Alan Gordon said:


> I'd love for it to at least be mentioned...


I go back and forth because they may not want to draw attention away from the stand alone units now. They may just end up saying it is scheduled for later this year. Then again if the boxes are ready to go I could see them mentioning in passing without much focus.

I wonder how long it will be until TiVo adds VUDU now that Walmart has purchased them. I suspect we'll continue to see additional online services on the stand-alones (sadly, not on DirecTV).



Alan Gordon said:


> That's two things! We know a Wireless N adapter is coming though... just not necessarily next week....
> 
> ~Alan


Yeah but I swear I remember reading or hearing a podcast mention based off the limited details that it could do more than just wireless and sounded like it could also be a bridge. I want to say it also had some type of power supply. This would make sense since if they didn't go with the newest Broadcom chip with Moca built in they could offer Moca on an additional networking device. This allows them to keep the TiVo at a lower price and then for those who need it can buy the adapter.

I think they are going to be announcing as much as they can since they have been quiet for so long. At least that is what I would do with the tagline inventing the DVR was only the warm-up.

Some of this they may not even go into specifics and mention for later release depending on how far everything is. Oh well I will know how many new TiVos I am buying versus Ceton cards come the 2nd.


----------



## Avery

The Tivo sounds from pushing buttins like thumbs up or down is all I need to make me switch back to Tivo.


----------



## hancox

Steve said:


> I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here, due to the difference in approaches.
> 
> Unless something's changed recently, the HR2x Series Manager doesn't completely update the TO DO List for hours or sometimes days after you re-order SL priorities. In fact, sometimes a re-ordered show will record correctly without ever showing up in TO DO. So even though you get back control of the HR2x UI immediately after re-ordering the Series Manager, it's difficult to determine when the task actually completed for comparison purposes.
> 
> TiVo makes you wait a few seconds, but immediately shows you the effect of any changes you've made. So any time you look at TO DO, you know exactly what will or won't record and can't make further adjustments, if need be.


bingo. one of the more annoying "habits" of the HR2x, when compared to the HR10-250.

Honestly, if I could just have an HR10-250 with:

MPEG4 support
The same OTA scanning (to avoid the design flaw of the HR2x)
Picture in guide

...I would likely buy it.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> True but based off some of the tipsters to engadgethd and other sites they said the new UI started off as fixes for the series 3. They also said it was as fast as the UI was back on the series 2. This could mean potentially they also roll out the update to the series 3 models. While most companies want you to buy new hardware, TiVo loses money on hardware so it only makes sense if the series 3 models can support it as well as the tipsters claim to roll it out..
> 
> Don't forget there was the UI video on EngadgetHD back from 2008 so it has potentially been in the works for a while. I haven't seen the Comcast UI so it might just be that they are showing.


That's NOT the ComcasTiVo.

That GUI you linked looks like TiVo Search, but brought GUI wide. Hopefully, that's either false, or they've refined it considerably, as I like it fine for TiVo Search, but not across the board.



Brennok said:


> I figure 320gb since that is what the RCN model was announced to have back when it was originally mentioned and also I believe the overseas models use 320gb now. If the Premiere has 320gb and the XL has 1TB it will make even less sense if the price gap is the same as the HD to HD XL. Then again it is TiVo.


Perhaps....



Brennok said:


> I don't see this happening across the board but only on the Best Buy TiVo based off some survey screenshots I saw from TiVo. They didn't mention the Best Buy specifically but did mention things that pointed towards the direction. If I remember correctly, the month to month options they asked were hardware at 199 with 14.99, 149 with 16.99 or 99 with 19.99.


Perhaps adding options for a lower up-front fee with higher monthly fees until AFTER the unit is payed off? If so, that's smart... but if it remains that high afterwards, not smart.



Brennok said:


> I don't know how much I believe it, but if the UI is new and easy to add programs/apps onto it then it would make sense especially if they have noticed the popularity of other programs over Tivo Desktop.


With the ability to use your "smart" phone as a Blu-ray player remote, I can see TiVo eventually adding that feature as well.

You can already use some third-party programs to do some TiVo Desktop functions, but I wasn't talking about TiVo Desktop. Quite frankly, it still works the best for me out of all the other things I've tried.



Brennok said:


> I go back and forth because they may not want to draw attention away from the stand alone units now. They may just end up saying it is scheduled for later this year. Then again if the boxes are ready to go I could see them mentioning in passing without much focus.


If they talk about a new GUI, and the DirecTiVo will have it, I wouldn't be surprised of a mention. If they announce new products, they could mention an updated timetable.

Otherwise, I'm not expecting anything.



Brennok said:


> Yeah but I swear I remember reading or hearing a podcast mention based off the limited details that it could do more than just wireless and sounded like it could also be a bridge. I want to say it also had some type of power supply. This would make sense since if they didn't go with the newest Broadcom chip with Moca built in they could offer Moca on an additional networking device. This allows them to keep the TiVo at a lower price and then for those who need it can buy the adapter.


Makes sense to me...



Brennok said:


> I think they are going to be announcing as much as they can since they have been quiet for so long. At least that is what I would do with the tagline inventing the DVR was only the warm-up.


That's my hope.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> I think you may be comparing apples and oranges here, due to the difference in approaches.


Due to the fact that the units are two different units, any comparison is technically apples and oranges!  

However, I was referring to the fact that on the TiVo, once you've finished re-ordering the Season Pass Manager, you have to wait until it's finished. On the HR10-250, this could take a while. The TiVo Series 3 speeds this up considerably, but still takes a _little_ time. On the HR2x, you can immediately go back to what you're doing.

So... in that way, the HR2x is faster.



Steve said:


> Unless something's changed recently, the HR2x Series Manager doesn't completely update the TO DO List for hours or sometimes days after you re-order SL priorities. In fact, sometimes a re-ordered show will record correctly without ever showing up in TO DO. So even though you get back control of the HR2x UI immediately after re-ordering the Series Manager, it's difficult to determine when the task actually completed for comparison purposes.
> 
> TiVo makes you wait a few seconds, but immediately shows you the effect of any changes you've made. So any time you look at TO DO, you know exactly what will or won't record and can't make further adjustments, if need be.


I've never had an issue with the slowness of Season Pass Manager. Since I don't have to deal with a Season Pass limit, most of my shows are kept pretty much how I like it. Once in a blue moon, I might venture into there.

I did have an issue with it once (prior to 6.x firmware) where it seemed to take forever, but only the one time.

HOWEVER, a constant complaint I've heard over the years (particularly from those who prefer the HR2x) was the slowness of the Season Pass Manager on TiVo DVRs, so I felt it important to stress the fact that for the user, doing what one has to do in the Manager sections of the respective DVRs, the HR2x is indeed faster than TiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> That's NOT the ComcasTiVo.
> 
> That GUI you linked looks like TiVo Search, but brought GUI wide. Hopefully, that's either false, or they've refined it considerably, as I like it fine for TiVo Search, but not across the board.


Well it is about 2 years old so I wouldn't be surprised if it has been updated. They seemed to have quit on the TiVo search beta or shifted gears over to the UI. I almost wonder now if it was a way to test how the series 3 hardware handled the change to see if it was possible in a real world setting to roll it out. Maybe they will have a classic option if they do change the UI lol.



Alan Gordon said:


> You can already use some third-party programs to do some TiVo Desktop functions, but I wasn't talking about TiVo Desktop. Quite frankly, it still works the best for me out of all the other things I've tried.


If you haven't you should give KMTTG a try. I find for transferring from the Tivo it is the best. The author will also add features if he can if there is something it is missing. For example he just added Tivo Web Plus support to delete shows after a successful transfer because one user wanted it for his series 2.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

The upside is that we'll likely know at least some actual facts in the near future, and those who are looking forward to the new Tivobox will have something to look forward to. 

I can't help believe that any new unit will have at least some nice new capabilities or features that will please those who favor that brand.


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Scott's post is an attempt to minimize complaints about the HR2x and denigrate the complainers. No doubt, however, Scott can still recall my 11-03-09 response to his post about "die hard Tivoites" in last quarter's edition of this thread: *A partial list of my outstanding issues*.
> 
> For a more complete list, see the 09-02-09 thread *A compendium of HR2x software problems*. None of these problems has been addressed.
> 
> I regard missed recordings as a huge problem. (My HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.) My HD DirecTiVo never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to.
> 
> But on a day-to-day basis, the sluggish response stands out as a constant irritation.


I don't think that is what he is doing at all...

I haven't had an issue with a missed recording in 3 years... I have 6 HR's... I am not saying you don't have issues, but don't assume that since you do, the majority of people do, because my guess is it is rare.... to have that particular problem...

Half of your list (or more) aren't actual issues.. they are your thoughts on the way it should work differently than the way it does.. Don't confuse the two, they are fundamentally different. I hate the Tivo GUI... But I don't say that they have issues because of the way they are designed.. that wouldn't be fair to say.

I will say, speed is the number one issue with all of the units, but the hr20 are much faster than the others... Hopefully, they can speed them up some more....


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> Well it is about 2 years old so I wouldn't be surprised if it has been updated. They seemed to have quit on the TiVo search beta or shifted gears over to the UI. *I almost wonder now if it was a way to test how the series 3 hardware handled the change to see if it was possible in a real world setting to roll it out.* Maybe they will have a classic option if they do change the UI lol.


*That makes a tremendous amount of sense.*

I love TiVo's current GUI... and, in my opinion, any changes to the GUI should be to simply make it sleeker. In other words, let's see TiVo (new GUI) do to TiVo (current) with what Windows (7) did to Windows (XP).



Brennok said:


> If you haven't you should give KMTTG a try. I find for transferring from the Tivo it is the best. The author will also add features if he can if there is something it is missing. For example he just added Tivo Web Plus support to delete shows after a successful transfer because one user wanted it for his series 2.


I don't really transfer from the TiVo much... only every now and then. TiVo Desktop works great for music and photos, and I have one second-hand TiVo program (forget the name) which works great for displaying video.



inkahauts said:


> I haven't had an issue with a missed recording in 3 years... I have 6 HR's... I am not saying you don't have issues, but don't assume that since you do, the majority of people do, because my guess is it is rare.... to have that particular problem...


This reminds me of a recent discussion on TiVoCommunity.com. Quite a few people are having some issues with their TiVoHDs, but quite a few people aren't having those issues.

I've read enough complaints about problems with the HR2x DVRs, to say it's not rare enough, but agree that the majority don't have these issues.

As for me? Well... my HR2x DVRs are pretty darn reliable. I may have a ton of complaints about them (and have spoken about some of them on more than one occasion), but they do pretty well recording what I tell it to.

~Alan


----------



## Brennok

Looks like Businessweek now has an article also on the March 2nd announcement. No real news, but they are thinking search might now include youtube and other online content.

tivo may offer set top box that combines web fare tv listings


----------



## Sixto

TiVo Premiere, XL DVRs show up in Best Buy systems for $299, $499; due March 27: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/25/tivo-premiere-xl-dvrs-show-up-in-best-buy-systems-for-299-49/


----------



## sigma1914

Sixto said:


> TiVo Premiere, XL DVRs show up in Best Buy systems for $299, $499; due March 27: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/25/tivo-premiere-xl-dvrs-show-up-in-best-buy-systems-for-299-49/


Great news for cable users...still nothing for Directv Tivo fans.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> Looks like Businessweek now has an article also on the March 2nd announcement. No real news, but they are thinking search might now include youtube and other online content.
> 
> tivo may offer set top box that combines web fare tv listings


If TiVo's big announcement is that they are bringing TiVo Search out of beta, I have two thoughts.

1. I stand by my earlier belief... in that I will be completely underwhelmed.
2. Did I miss DirecTV's press conference in which the teaser was "We didn't create the DVR, but...."

~Alan


----------



## celticpride

cool 1080p , finally on demand! but no qwerty remote? the endgadet page says standard remote,also tivo service $8.31 a month =$99.72 a year,didnt it use to be around $129.00 a year ?


----------



## sigma1914

celticpride said:


> cool 1080p , finally on demand! but no qwerty remote? the endgadet page says standard remote,also tivo service $8.31 a month =$99.72 a year,didnt it use to be around $129.00 a year ?


"As low as" $8.31...


----------



## celticpride

I can only assume the directv tivo will have the same features? If not getting on demand on an HD tivo with verizon fios sounds to good to me to pass up.


----------



## bonscott87

sigma1914 said:


> "As low as" $8.31...


Most likely with a 2 or 3 yr commitment if I remember correctly. LOL.

EDIT: Yep, 3 yr commitment. Just look at the Tivo site for costs. 3 yr plan at $299 works out to $8.31 per month. After 3 yrs you renew into an annual plan at $129 a yr.

Man, glad I pay $0 on my HTPC and not much more up front then what a high end Tivo HD would cost up front and it can do soooooo much more then a Tivo can. Makes that look like a better and better decision every day.


----------



## Alan Gordon

celticpride said:


> cool 1080p , finally on demand! but no qwerty remote? the endgadet page says standard remote,also tivo service $8.31 a month =$99.72 a year,didnt it use to be around $129.00 a year ?


If you prepay for 3 years, or sign a 3 year contract, that's the fee.



celticpride said:


> I can only assume the directv tivo will have the same features? If not getting on demand on an HD tivo with verizon fios sounds to good to me to pass up.


The DirecTiVo will most likely NOT have access to Amazon OnDemand (since that can be money taken away from DirecTV). I doubt YouTube, MusicChoice, and others will be included either. The DirecTiVo will MOST LIKELY have access to DoD (DirecTV OnDemand) though...

I doubt they meant OnDemand with your local cableco, but rather from TiVo's partners (Amazon, NetFlix, Blockbuster, MusicChoice, YouTube).

~Alan


----------



## TheRatPatrol

> Also possible: TiVo will launch a new retail HD DVR that *would be compatible with both cable and satellite*; its current retail HD DVR can only be used with cable.


Now that would be way cool.


----------



## Sixto

TheRatPatrol said:


> Now that would be way cool.


very unlikely. very. (0% chance).


----------



## dirtyblueshirt

Sixto said:


> very unlikely. very. (0% chance).


Also economically not feasible, since wouldn't the DVR be required to have at least two completely different tuning modules, if not more, depending on your service? I'm sure it's TECHNICALLY feasible, but your TiVo would be about as big as a PC and require lots of power and ventilation...


----------



## Doug Brott

dirtyblueshirt said:


> ...and require lots of power and ventilation...


much of which would be a complete waste for most people .. no reason for two sets of tuners when most people would have either cable or satellite but not both. (just reiterating your thought)


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Sixto said:


> very unlikely. very. (0% chance).


Yeah I know, but still would be kind of cool.


----------



## Brennok

celticpride said:


> cool 1080p , finally on demand! but no qwerty remote? the endgadet page says standard remote


I don't see any mention of standard remote. I only see them mentioning there is no info.

Then again they say no mention of hard drive size, but the Premiere will obviously have a 320gb drive based off 43 HD hours and the XL will still have a 1TB drive since it still has 150 hours. It could be they end up including it in the XL like the Glo remote. It probably depends on what if anything uses it and how much it is needed.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> I don't see any mention of standard remote. I only see them mentioning there is no info.


When you enlarge the Best Buy information, it lists the remote as standard... even for the XL.

Though I may never buy one, I hope DirecTV sells (optionally) a premium TiVo remote as well for the DirecTiVo unit.



Brennok said:


> Then again they say no mention of hard drive size, but the Premiere will obviously have a 320gb drive based off 43 HD hours and the XL will still have a 1TB drive since it still has 150 hours. It could be they end up including it in the XL like the Glo remote. It probably depends on what if anything uses it and how much it is needed.


Yep! Good job on the hard drive guesses...

~Alan


----------



## usnret

If/when DTV comes out with a Tivo DTV DVR, would one be able to MRV between it and a DTV HD DVR and a Tive HD?? Wishful thinking I know, but it would be kinda neat.


----------



## bonscott87

usnret said:


> If/when DTV comes out with a Tivo DTV DVR, would one be able to MRV between it and a DTV HD DVR and a Tive HD?? Wishful thinking I know, but it would be kinda neat.


Pretty much 0% chance of that (to a Tivo HD that is). DRM and all that.


----------



## Jeremy W

bonscott87 said:


> Pretty much 0% chance of that (to a Tivo HD that is). DRM and all that.


Tivo would/will have to implement the same DRM on their DVR for DirecTV, so in reality there wouldn't be much stopping them from putting it on the Tivo HD as well. Aside from DirecTV not letting them, of course.


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> When you enlarge the Best Buy information, it lists the remote as standard... even for the XL.
> 
> Though I may never buy one, I hope DirecTV sells (optionally) a premium TiVo remote as well for the DirecTiVo unit.


Oh ok, on my screen the text is so blurred it is tough to make out. I wonder if they scrapped the Qwerty remote or if it will be offered separately like they offer the Glo Remote. Either way it makes sense to include similar hardware from a cost cutting perspective.


----------



## celticpride

I have a feeling you'll have to buy the qwerty remote seperatly at a premium price, that is if they even make one.


----------



## jal

Well, its March 2. Let's hope we hear something about the new Directivo! Posts over at tivocommunity.com are rumoring a release by the end of this month.


----------



## Brennok

From what Zatz has said, the embargo will lift around 7:00 PM since that is when the presentation is supposed to start.


----------



## ffemtreed

jal said:


> Well, its March 2. Let's hope we hear something about the new Directivo! Posts over at tivocommunity.com are rumoring a release by the end of this month.


I doubt that, but it would be nice.


----------



## johnp37

I understand the FBI, CIA, NSA, CTU, Justice Dep't. Dep't of Homeland Security, and Interpol have collectively decided to make any information about the DirecTivo Top Secret Classified For Eyes Only Restricted Access. That is why nobody has heard anything about it. Apparently it has been a national security issue for sometime now.:lol:


----------



## Doug Brott

Psssst .. I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the new DIRECTV TiVo .. well, at least not in a way that would say it's coming any time soon.


----------



## Brennok

TiVo has always been really good about keeping secrets. The only leaks we have seen so far have been tipsters or BB leaks and those were only after the invite was out there. 

As far as a release by the end of the month, I don't see it since they will be focusing on getting the Premiere out there. They don't have any HD on hand and they are OOS at Best Buy so they need to really get that product out. Not that they don't need to get the DirecTivo out also, but I don't see them trying to roll out two new units at the same time just from a support angle.


----------



## Doug Brott

Looks like the big announcement for today ... Not DIRECTV related ...

CNET.com


> TiVo on Tuesday officially announced two new DVRs that offer an updated user interface and enhanced integration and search capabilities for online video. The TiVo Premiere and TiVo Premiere XL models will cost $300 and $500, respectively, when they ship in April; like all previous TiVo models, they'll also require a monthly, yearly, or lifetime service fee as well.


So .. Back to anticipating.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> CNET.com


Pretty boring announcement (as I predicted).

Still, it will be interesting to see if the new HD-GUI... with PiG and PiL and space meter will make it to the DirecTiVo...

Dave Zatz kind of sums my feelings up perfectly...

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Other then maybe another tuner, certainly looks like a cool box, and wonder what people were expecting.

Faster processor, HD GUI, PiG, Space meter, new remote, looks like some sort of ability to tag programs by user ...

Wonder if the DirecTV equivalent will be built on similar firmware.

http://www.engadget.com/photos/tivo-premiere-ui-gallery/#2760471


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> looks like some sort of ability to tag programs by user ...


Thanks for the link Sixto... I hadn't seen those pictures yet. That feature seems VERY cool!

One photo from that link looks extremely cool as well. While I'm against the inclusion of a PiL (or any other Pi outside of a PiG... seriously, TiVo, what the crap were you thinking?), I really like (what appears to be) the ability to check the To Do List from the Now Playing List... as well as (what appears to be) the ability to group soon to be deleted items.

Can someone with more technical know-how than me make a decent comparison between the Broadcom BCM7413 and what the HR2x DVRs use?

~Alan


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Is there a video of the presentation anywhere?

Thanks


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Wonder if the DirecTV equivalent will be built on similar firmware.


I would be shocked if it wasn't. Tivo would be foolish to debut this new UI, and then crap out a box a few months later with the old UI.

I think that "Discovery Bar" across the top is a hideous waste of screen space. I'd take DirecTV's guide ads over that mess any day.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:



> I would be shocked if it wasn't. Tivo would be foolish to debut this new UI, and then crap out a box a few months later with the old UI.


Seems like the new TiVo HD GUI needs the faster processor, but there's been some debate relative to the hardware spec for the future DirecTV TiVo. We'll see.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> I think that "Discovery Bar" across the top is a hideous waste of screen space. I'd take DirecTV's guide ads over that mess any day.


While I'm not a fan of the bar in every area of the GUI, nor do I find it necessary for the graphics to be that large since it's being used in an HD GUI, I actually LIKE the IDEA of the "Discovery Bar"... and it certainly fits with TiVo's feature set over the years (unlike the addition of a PiL or PiM).

I've played around with it at home on my TiVo Series 3 (via Tivo Search).

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Hmmm. Video. Seems slow. http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/tivo-premiere-hands-on/​
Look at screen transitions.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Hmmm. Video. Seems slow. http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/tivo-premiere-hands-on/​
> Look at screen transitions.





EngadgetHD said:


> You sure wouldn't see that it's running in Flash at first blush, since the UI is quite responsive and "native" feeling, with live streams of video playing without a hitch. The biggest hint that there's a big amount of reliance on the internet is *the fact that the choked connection here was causing thumbnails and even some UI icons to take a little while to pop in.* The rep we spoke with said that TiVo is still considering what elements exactly they'll be caching.


~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> ~Alan


Yep, saw that, but the simple transition to show the playlist was slow.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Seems like the new TiVo HD GUI needs the faster processor, but there's been some debate relative to the hardware spec for the future DirecTV TiVo. We'll see.


I know there's been debate, and I've always been on the side of the debate that believes the new DirecTivo will be using the faster processor. So having the new UI fits perfectly with my thoughts.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Yep, saw that, but the simple transition to show the playlist was slow.


It will be interesting to see if modifying which elements are cached speed things up.

The TiVo Premiere appears to (like the DirecTV DVRs do these days) rely heavily on artwork... a feature that I like when it doesn't slow things down considerably. Given the expectations that the HR24 will considerably speed up the DirecTV DVRs, I have hope that TiVo can do the same (given the updated horsepower).

However, I will state for the record that the video showing the TiVo Premiere going into the Playlist was faster than the amount of time it sometimes takes my HR23-700 to go into it's Playlist.

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> However, I will state for the record that the video showing the TiVo Premiere going into the Playlist was faster than the amount of time it sometimes takes my HR23-700 to go into it's Playlist.
> 
> ~Alan


And that was with a new latest-and-greatest processor ... wonder what the DirecTV GUI would do on the same processor ...


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> And that was with a new latest-and-greatest processor ... wonder what the DirecTV GUI would do on the same processor ...


Hey, as I said on the Hx24 thread, I'd LOVE to be able to swap my HR23-700/HR20-700 for an HR24... but I'm not going to pay $199 a piece to do so...

~Alan


----------



## say-what

Sixto said:


> Hmmm. Video. Seems slow. http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/tivo-premiere-hands-on/​
> Look at screen transitions.


Wow, not impressed. Wouldn't trade any of my HR2x's for that.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

Cool remote control though.

QWERTY so thats how you say it


----------



## P Smith

That's not cool:


> The BCM7413 is a multi-format IPTV SoC that is *optimized *to support *SD and ED* output resolutions, *HDMIv.1.3/HDCP1.2 (up to 480p/576p*) and video DAC support for S-video and composite video.


while decoder is good enough:


> Advanced multi-format decoder supporting the following:
> - HD/SD H.264/AVC Main and High Profile to Level 4.1 (HD), Level 3.1 (SD)
> - HD/SD AVS Jizhun Profile Levels 2.0, 4.0, and 6.0 (720p and 1080i for HDTV)
> - VC-1 Advanced Profile @ Level 3, Simple and Main Profile
> - HD/SD MPEG-2 Main Profile at Main and High levels
> - SD MPEG-4 P2 SP/ASP
> - HD DivX® 3.11/4/5/6


and cores look nice:


> # 400-MHz Dual-Core CMT MIPS32®/16e class processor
> # 64-bit DDR2 800-MHz DRAM controller


----------



## Jeremy W

P Smith said:


> That's not cool


It's strange wording, but the chip fully supports HD.


----------



## P Smith

Decoder - yes, but optimization is not.


----------



## Ken_F

P Smith said:


> That's not cool:


I don't think the first half of that product description is correct.



Alan Gordon said:


> Can someone with more technical know-how than me make a decent comparison between the Broadcom BCM7413 and what the HR2x DVRs use?


The TiVo Premiere has 2.5x to 3x the CPU performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20. Most of Broadcom's newer 65nm SoCs also offer 2.5x to 3x the 2D performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20, but I don't know if that applies to the BCM7413.

Broadcom offers drivers with hardware accelerated Flash for their new SoCs, but the maturity level of those drivers is unclear.


----------



## Sixto

Ken_F said:


> I don't think the first half of that product description is correct.
> 
> The TiVo Premiere has 2.5x to 3x the CPU performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20. Most of Broadcom's newer 65nm SoCs also offer 2.5x to 3x the 2D performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20, but I don't know if that applies to the BCM7413.
> 
> Broadcom offers drivers with hardware accelerated Flash for their new SoCs, but the maturity level of those drivers is unclear.


Ken_F,

Any thoughts on the NXP CX25401 rumored for DirecTV?http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1671.html​
NXP's HD DVR chipset for DIRECTV HR24 DVRs incorporates:
- CX24500 High Definition SoC with DVR support
- CX24118A advanced modulation digital satellite tuners
- CX24127 dual-DVB-S2 and QPSK set-top box demodulator
- CX20548 modem Direct Access Arrangement (DAA)


----------



## djrobx

It's taken over 10 years for TiVo to get a space meter. The UI in that video looks terrible. It's as if TiVo got molested by Windows Media Center (Vista ring and all). 

No thanks.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Ken_F said:


> The TiVo Premiere has 2.5x to 3x the CPU performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20. Most of Broadcom's newer 65nm SoCs also offer 2.5x to 3x the 2D performance of the TiVo Series3 and HR20, but I don't know if that applies to the BCM7413.


Given the performance jump... what are your thoughts about the speed being shown in the EngadgetHD.com video?

Given the specs of the horsepower involved and the fact that it seemed like it was downloading certain icons (like the HD tags, etc.) on almost every page they went to, it seemed to me, that a lot of unnecessary items were being downloaded from the internet with each page... and that better management of them would considerably speed up the unit.

I too am interested in your thoughts regarding the NXP CX25401?

~Alan


----------



## inkahauts

Just watched the video.. I don;t even no where to begin, so I don;t thin I will.. Looks like they have decided they want to try and catch up to the HR's... Maybe they figured they'd need to do that before they released a Directv Tivo...


----------



## kiljoy

I like that interface, but hate the picture in the Now Play-um... My Shows list. That said, I'm leaning more and more toward dropping DirecTV and going with an all-HTPC solution instead of paying for this and re-upping.

Given adequate caching, I don't think the speed of the pictures populating would be an issue, but the screen where they went to a show and it took time for the options to populate kind of worries me. Either way it's obviously a helluva lot more responsive than my HR22s, even with no caching.

I'll listen to the users of the unit, but I like it quite a bit so far.

Tony


----------



## wingrider01

kiljoy said:


> I like that interface, but hate the picture in the Now Play-um... My Shows list. That said, I'm leaning more and more toward dropping DirecTV and going with an all-HTPC solution instead of paying for this and re-upping.
> 
> Given adequate caching, I don't think the speed of the pictures populating would be an issue, but the screen where they went to a show and it took time for the options to populate kind of worries me. Either way it's obviously a helluva lot more responsive than my HR22s, even with no caching.
> 
> I'll listen to the users of the unit, but I like it quite a bit so far.
> 
> Tony


Have some issues with the HTPC - I do run one for movies on a SAN

1. Downloading of shows through Netflix, etc - they are still testing bandwidth caps in my area, this could be a major issue
2. Have read where netflix, redbox, etc are instituting a 28 day delay on new releases avialable from specific movie studios - again a major issue
3. in my case OTA is like watching a show in a 1960 era TV, reception is horrible

Me I like the new HR24 and DECA, hoping to score the setup from Directv to the point I am willing to enter into a 2 year commitment for the first time since 2000


----------



## tonyd79

Hmm. A lot of the Tivo leaning over the HR2X's has been the love affair with the Tivo interface. Now Tivo has completely thrown the GUI away with the new Premiere. I would assume they also threw away the guts and have pretty much started over, so the vaunted Tivo reliability may still be there or may not (I think it went away with the HD model from my personal experience but YMMV). So, what makes someone demand Tivo anymore?


----------



## Tom_S

kiljoy said:


> I like that interface, but hate the picture in the Now Play-um... My Shows list. That said, I'm leaning more and more toward dropping DirecTV and going with an all-HTPC solution instead of paying for this and re-upping.
> 
> Given adequate caching, I don't think the speed of the pictures populating would be an issue, but the screen where they went to a show and it took time for the options to populate kind of worries me. Either way it's obviously a helluva lot more responsive than my HR22s, even with no caching.
> 
> I'll listen to the users of the unit, but I like it quite a bit so far.
> 
> Tony


I'm with you there. I'm all setup and just waiting for the CETON 4 tuner card to come out. Scheduled for this month. I already get cable, it's included with my phone and internet so all I have to do is get a cablecard for $2/month and drop my $140 /month sat bill. Done and done.

I have been playing with a Clear QAM card which gets me all the locals, the Windows 7 Media Center really does work well. Can't wait to try it out with the cablecard.


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> Just watched the video.. I don;t even no where to begin, so I don;t thin I will.. *Looks like they have decided they want to try and catch up to the HR's...* Maybe they figured they'd need to do that before they released a Directv Tivo...


I'm curious as to your meaning?

TiVo does need to catch up to the HRs, but the HRs also need to catch up to TiVo.

Where do you think the TiVo is trying to catch up to the HR?

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> Hmm. A lot of the Tivo leaning over the HR2X's has been the love affair with the Tivo interface. Now Tivo has completely thrown the GUI away with the new Premiere. I would assume they also threw away the guts and have pretty much started over, so the vaunted Tivo reliability may still be there or may not (I think it went away with the HD model from my personal experience but YMMV). So, what makes someone demand Tivo anymore?


While I'm disappointed by the lack of channel logos in the Playlist (Seriously, TiVo, there's a lot of wasted space), and the addition of a PiL (please let there be a way to turn that off), and some cosmetic changes I would have made, I not only prefer the GUI of the new TiVo over the HR2x, there are a lot of changes to the GUI I prefer over the TiVo Series 3.

I do agree with you regarding reliability though... not necessarily about the TiVoHD as I've never used one, and my TiVo Series 3 works great, but rather about the TiVo Series4 (AKA Premiere) which is still an unknown comodity.

As for what makes people demand TiVo anymore?!


Unlimited Series Links
Wishlists
Episode Guides

Those are two of the biggies on my list. The lack of a PiL would have been on the list, but unless TiVo adds an option to turn it off, that appears to be going away. I could think of others, but until more thorough reviews of the new TiVo are out, I'll hold off.

~Alan


----------



## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> [...] As for what makes people demand TiVo anymore?!
> 
> 
> Unlimited Series Links
> Wishlists
> Episode Guides
> 
> Those are two of the biggies on my list. The lack of a PiL would have been on the list, but unless TiVo adds an option to turn it off, that appears to be going away. I could think of others, but until more thorough reviews of the new TiVo are out, I'll hold off.


Re: that short list, unlimited SL's can be worked-around on the HR2x by using keyword AUTORECORDS that include several show titles on the same channel in a single query, so not an issue for me. And since MRV, I spread out my recordings over several boxes, so I no longer bump into the 50 limit on any one DVR, even with "standard" SL's. Just my experience. I realize others' MMV.

I replicate wishlists with keyword searches/AUTORECORDS as well. E.g., I don't know when PBS is going to air an old _Inspector Morse_ episode, so I have a standing AUTORECORD *AALL inspector morse* that every now and then surprises me when an episode appears in my PLAYLIST. Alternately, I can simply run that "saved search" weekly to see if any new episodes are in the GUIDE data.

What are "episode guides"? If they were a feature on my HR10-250's, I forgot what they were. :scratchin Sucks getting old! :lol:


----------



## tonyd79

Alan Gordon said:


> While I'm disappointed by the lack of channel logos in the Playlist (Seriously, TiVo, there's a lot of wasted space), and the addition of a PiL (please let there be a way to turn that off), and some cosmetic changes I would have made, I not only prefer the GUI of the new TiVo over the HR2x, there are a lot of changes to the GUI I prefer over the TiVo Series 3.


Seriously, how can you judge a GUI by a few pictures? The purpose of a GUI is not to look good but to be easy to use and have things where you need them to be in action. I saw nothing that tells me how good or bad the GUI is and when a lot of Tivo-yearners yearned for the Tivo GUI, they were talking about the current cartoon version. That is gone.


----------



## Daniel

http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188664&site=lr_cable&f_src=lightreading_gnews



> The new platform won't be available to DirecTV Group Inc. (NYSE: DTV) subscribers, since the satellite TV giant uses an older version of TiVo software in its DVRs. But Rogers said TiVo is creating a new software for DirecTV DVRs that will add some new functions.
> 
> "Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo," he said.


So we don't get the new UI either...


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Just another reason to ignore DirecTiVo. 

Mike


----------



## hancox

Daniel said:


> http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188664&site=lr_cable&f_src=lightreading_gnews
> 
> So we don't get the new UI either...


Erm, so what are they waiting for, then?


----------



## bonscott87

hancox said:


> Erm, so what are they waiting for, then?


No kidding. Now that we know this new HD DirecTivo is based off of a 10 year old GUI I *really* don't understand the delay now. By the time they do get it to market it just won't matter anymore (if it still does now as it is).


----------



## loudo

The worse thing about the HR10-250, was that horrible guide. Besides it taking for ever to do anything. But I am sure we will see some improvements.


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> The worse thing about the HR10-250, was that horrible guide [...]


If you mean the "TiVo-style" guide, it's one of the few features I _still_ miss after 3 years away from the HR10. Different strokes...


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Tom_S said:


> I'm with you there. I'm all setup and just waiting for the CETON 4 tuner card to come out. Scheduled for this month. I already get cable, it's included with my phone and internet so all I have to do is get a cablecard for $2/month and drop my $140 /month sat bill. Done and done.
> .


Some cable systems hit you for outlet and cable card HD fee as well. and you may need 2 SDV tuners (1 can only do 2 tuners) as well (free for now)

and the included with my phone and internet likely has way less channels then what your $140 sat bill has.


----------



## Hoosier205

Epic fail by TiVo


----------



## loudo

Steve said:


> If you mean the "TiVo-style" guide, it's one of the few features I _still_ miss after 3 years away from the HR10. Different strokes...


Not that one, the other one with the big ugly bars.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> No kidding. Now that we know this new HD DirecTivo is based off of a 10 year old GUI I *really* don't understand the delay now [...]


Agree. I'm now thinking the "delay" must have been to port it to the HR24, which sports a new chip-set the folks at TiVo may not have been familiar with.

Otherwise, if it was going to run on a particular HR21/22/ or /23 model, it would seem to me the old HR10 s/w _could_ have been ported reasonably quickly to one of those MPEG-4 capable boxes, since the TiVo HD's used the same BCM chipsets. An MPEG-4 HR10 would probably have satisfied a lot of customers who just wanted basic recording/playback capability.


----------



## Steve

loudo said:


> Not that one, the other one with the big ugly bars.


Ya. Their "grid" guide was pretty poor, IIRC.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

More on the new TiVo


----------



## Tom_S

JoeTheDragon said:


> Some cable systems hit you for outlet and cable card HD fee as well. and you may need 2 SDV tuners (1 can only do 2 tuners) as well (free for now)
> 
> and the included with my phone and internet likely has way less channels then what your $140 sat bill has.


Only $2 fee for the cable card. No need for SDV, only will miss NHL Network. Yes way less channels, but only 1 or 2 that I have ever watched. Worth the $140 savings.


----------



## SledgeHammer

So, uh... if its the old GUI and no QWERTY remote, what exactly is the point? $5/month or whatever sounds like a lot for whats essentially going to be a TiVO skin loaded on a HR2x. Doesn't sound like its going to offer anything worth even $0.01 extra per month.


----------



## ATARI

SledgeHammer said:


> So, uh... if its the old GUI and no QWERTY remote, what exactly is the point? $5/month or whatever sounds like a lot for whats essentially going to be a TiVO skin loaded on a HR2x. Doesn't sound like its going to offer anything worth even $0.01 extra per month.


Exactly.


----------



## bonscott87

SledgeHammer said:


> So, uh... if its the old GUI and no QWERTY remote, what exactly is the point? $5/month or whatever sounds like a lot for whats essentially going to be a TiVO skin loaded on a HR2x. Doesn't sound like its going to offer anything worth even $0.01 extra per month.


I think many agree with you (I do). But what the diehard Tivotees say is that just because it is the Tivo UI then people will pay more. While there are a few out there that will I think it's been proven over the past few years that this is not the case with the general user population. Any DVR is a "Tivo" and they won't see the point of paying extra..."I've already got a Tivo, I'm confused...why pay more for this one?". And so if this is just the old 10 yr old GUI slapped on an HR2x with a few Tivo only features like suggestions and wishlists for extra $$$...well....it's just not going to sell well in my opinion.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

Tom_S said:


> Only $2 fee for the cable card. No need for SDV, only will miss NHL Network. Yes way less channels, but only 1 or 2 that I have ever watched. Worth the $140 savings.


No need for SDV?

At any time they can move any channel to SDV.


----------



## SledgeHammer

bonscott87 said:


> I think many agree with you (I do). But what the diehard Tivotees say is that just because it is the Tivo UI then people will pay more. While there are a few out there that will I think it's been proven over the past few years that this is not the case with the general user population. Any DVR is a "Tivo" and they won't see the point of paying extra..."I've already got a Tivo, I'm confused...why pay more for this one?". And so if this is just the old 10 yr old GUI slapped on an HR2x with a few Tivo only features like suggestions and wishlists for extra $$$...well....it's just not going to sell well in my opinion.


I had a Tivo for 5yrs and never once used wishlists. I tried triple thumb up'ing all my programs for a while and the suggestions would just get more and more bizarre. So I stopped bothering .

I think even if Tivo got the new GUI on it, theres not much point. I'm not paying extra money just to get rid of some jaggies.

I don't think I would pay extra for the QWERTY remote either. Yeah, it might be a bit more convienient then the ouija board, but not $5/month more convienient. If it was a one time $50 purchase, then yeah maybe.

I really don't think there is anything Tivo could offer **ME** to pay extra per month. I wouldn't pay extra for the Tivo "skin", the QWERTY remote, suggestions, wishlists, dual live buffers, MRV, etc.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

SledgeHammer said:


> I don't think I would pay extra for the QWERTY remote either. Yeah, it might be a bit more convienient then the ouija board, but not $5/month more convienient. If it was a one time $50 purchase, then yeah maybe.


Whoa, are you saying that theres a $5.00 a month "rental" fee for this remote, you can't just buy it?


----------



## Duke3K

Wow - I can't believe this - after this long wait and all the excitement - guess what - we D* users are right back where we started.....

Rogers was quoted in a Light Reading article as saying:

_The new platform won't be available to DirecTV Group Inc. (NYSE: DTV) subscribers, since the satellite TV giant uses an older version of TiVo software in its DVRs. But Rogers said TiVo is creating a new software for DirecTV DVRs that will add some new functions.

"Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo," he said. _

See: Lightreading post at :

lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188664&site=lr_cable


----------



## bonscott87

TheRatPatrol said:


> Whoa, are you saying that theres a $5.00 a month "rental" fee for this remote, you can't just buy it?


No, I believe what he is saying is that assuming the new Tivo box will cost an extra $5 a month (we don't know the actual charge yet) that in effect if the QWERTY remote was your main reason for going with a Tivo, is that then worth $5 a month?

I think anyone interested in the new Tivo will have to make that decision.

Are suggestions worth $5 a month.
Are whishlists worth $5 a month.
Is feature X and losing HR2x feature Y worth $5 a month.

And so forth.

And now being that it's going to be the same old tired GUI that list is going to be even shorter.

Suggestions - Just as often turned off on a Tivo then used. Probably not that big of a seller.

Wishlists - I actually found the HR2x search just as powerful in most situations and even better in some. So again, just how much "better" is the Tivo whishlist worth per month?

More season passes - 50 limit currently on the HR2x. One does have to wonder that if the new Tivo is on the same hardware if it won't also have the same limit? But if not, again, how many people are currently constrained by the 50 limit? Sure there are some, but if it were a lot DirecTV most certainly would have dedicated resources to up that limit 3 yrs ago on the HR2x platform. Thus I don't think it's that big of an issue really.

Tivo Kid Zone - Worth the extra monthly and up front cost? Maybe for a few.

Tivo UI itself - Again, there may be a few diehards that will pay, but the vast majority don't care. Just ask the tens and tens and tens of millions of cable/Fios/Uverse DVR customers. They just want it to record and play back. And they all do that. They don't care what it looks like.

I could go on but this is already sounding like a negative post. But in the end it really is because Tivo has really dropped the ball here. Not only are they going to be over a year late they are now building it on very old technology which isn't going to inspire anyone but the biggest diehards to buy it and pay the extra monthly. It's destined to be doomed before it even hits the streets at this rate.


----------



## SledgeHammer

TheRatPatrol said:


> Whoa, are you saying that theres a $5.00 a month "rental" fee for this remote, you can't just buy it?


As Bonscott said, I meant, you need the box for the remote. So essentially, you're paying $5/month (or whatever) for a remote cuz the box itself is the same.

EDIT: ACTUALLY... think about it... the DVR itself will cost about $299 (my guess) or more... PLUS $5/month... PLUS $50 (my guess) for the remote.

So... thats a $350 remote + $5/month "battery & Infared Spectrum Rental fee"


----------



## Doug Brott

The only reason we are thinking that there will be an additional fee is that TiVo will be getting "significantly" more for their services. If DIRECTV has to pay TiVo for the service on @ least each household with a TiVo, then it would stand to reason that there will be some sort of upcharge. However, significantly more may simply mean that DIRECTV offered to give $2 instead of $1 per TiVo household .. There are still some SD TiVo households. In fact, I still have one, but alas I also have Lifetime DVR service. Doubt TiVo is getting anything from me.


----------



## kiljoy

wingrider01 said:


> Have some issues with the HTPC - I do run one for movies on a SAN
> 
> 1. Downloading of shows through Netflix, etc - they are still testing bandwidth caps in my area, this could be a major issue
> 2. Have read where netflix, redbox, etc are instituting a 28 day delay on new releases avialable from specific movie studios - again a major issue
> 3. in my case OTA is like watching a show in a 1960 era TV, reception is horrible
> 
> Me I like the new HR24 and DECA, hoping to score the setup from Directv to the point I am willing to enter into a 2 year commitment for the first time since 2000


Downloading shows, yeah, I'm a Netflix subscriber but really if I need a show, I'll torrent it. The movies and a 28-day delay, well, I can get them in the mail, but most of the movies I enjoy wouldn't even be impacted by a 28-_year_ delay so again, no issue. As for OTA, I'm at the top of a hill 3 miles from the transmitters on top of the next hill over, I think I'll be fine.

As for the comments about the old GUI on the forthcoming DirecTiVo, I'd have to echo the comments here. The old interface (even if it's the Series 3/HD interface) on HR24 hardware don't exactly make me eager to pony up more bucks for a service that's seeming increasingly redundant. I must admit my anticipation for this device is waning quickly and when (if?) the box comes out and users report the same audio dropouts, high susceptibility to rain-fade, and frequent lockups of the hardware I currently use (and upon which the DirecTiVo will be built), then I can't see me wanting to go to it.

Honestly, I liked the old (SD) DirecTivo GUI and featureset a lot, but for me the clincher was that it was absolutely rock-solid and my HR22 has not been. For the same price, I'd take the TiVo and deal with reliability on par with the HR22, but I can't see me paying for it.

Tony


----------



## Stuart Sweet

At this point I doubt that the TiVo will use HR24 hardware, that receiver's not even out yet. Given the age of the press releases, the platform they referred to was probably the HR22 or HR23.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point I doubt that the TiVo will use HR24 hardware, that receiver's not even out yet. Given the age of the press releases, the platform they referred to was probably the HR22 or HR23.


If you're right, then by their lack of quick action, TiVo really let a golden window of opportunity to poach any new HR2x subscribers slip by, IMHO. Especially those HDVR2, R10 and HR10 holdouts that finally switched to HR2x's in the past year.

If I were a TiVo shareholder, I'd be very unhappy with them right now, especially since Mr. Rogers is stating his business model is based on subscriber revenues and not hardware sales.


----------



## JBernardK

Duke3K said:


> Wow - I can't believe this - after this long wait and all the excitement - guess what - we D* users are right back where we started.....
> 
> Rogers was quoted in a Light Reading article as saying:
> 
> _The new platform won't be available to DirecTV Group Inc. (NYSE: DTV) subscribers, since the satellite TV giant uses an older version of TiVo software in its DVRs. But Rogers said TiVo is creating a new software for DirecTV DVRs that will add some new functions.
> 
> "Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo," he said. _
> 
> See: Lightreading post at :
> 
> lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188664&site=lr_cable


I think we may be misreading rogers quote. there are still lots of TiVo's being used by directTV customers and I think he is referring to these. Note he is using the present tense. I do not think it necessarily refers to the up and coming HD TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

JBernardK said:


> I think we may be misreading rogers quote. there are still lots of TiVo's being used by directTV customers and I think he is referring to these. Note he is using the present tense. I do not think it necessarily refers to the up and coming HD TiVo.


Not quite sure how you could say that based on this comment:


> Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel. It's based on the classic TiVo.


Certainly there is room for a fresher version, but it's an update of the same ol' stuff it seems.


----------



## oldfantom

Steve said:


> If you're right, then by their lack of quick action, TiVo really let a golden window of opportunity to poach any new HR2x subscribers slip by, IMHO. Especially those HDVR2, R10 and HR10 holdouts that finally switched to HR2x's in the past year.
> 
> If I were a TiVo shareholder, I'd be very unhappy with them right now, especially since Mr. Rogers is stating his business model is based on subscriber revenues and not hardware sales.


It seems to me that they are turning into a company that makes money on their patents. In that regard, they are profiting off the HR2X platform.

The more time goes by, the less likely I am to switch. My only HR gripe I have right now is the 50 Series link. The longer I stay away from Tivo, the less problem I have with the D* DVR. In my heart of hearts, i know it is not great technology, but it is paid for and it gets the job done with a few quirks I am getting used to dealing with.


----------



## Lee L

Stuart Sweet said:


> At this point I doubt that the TiVo will use HR24 hardware, that receiver's not even out yet. Given the age of the press releases, the platform they referred to was probably the HR22 or HR23.


So, even though the words "New box" were used at least twice, you still think they were talking about HR22/23?

If the HR24 has better processing speed, all the more reason to think they will just have TiVo on that, if they ever actually do anything at all.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> Re: that short list, unlimited SL's can be worked-around on the HR2x by using keyword AUTORECORDS that include several show titles on the same channel in a single query, so not an issue for me. And since MRV, I spread out my recordings over several boxes, so I no longer bump into the 50 limit on any one DVR, even with "standard" SL's. Just my experience. I realize others' MMV.


First of all, I'm not getting into how some people manage to do workarounds for the SL limit. It's crap... I understand it works, but it's crap!

I want the ability to have as MANY Series Links/Season Passes as I want. DirecTV may add that later to their newer boxes, but as for right now, they simply do not offer the ability to do so.

As for MRV, three comments. One being that I want the ability to manage my Series Links/To Do List from ONE ROOM. Sure, I have MRV set up in the other room, but I rarely record stuff on it... just a few programs due to tuner conflicts.

Two: Not everyone has MRV... in fact, once DirecTV starts charging for it, I may not have it anymore.

Three: A person with MRV may only have one HD-DVR... so for some people, MRV won't help them much.



Steve said:


> I replicate wishlists with keyword searches/AUTORECORDS as well. E.g., I don't know when PBS is going to air an old _Inspector Morse_ episode, so I have a standing AUTORECORD *AALL inspector morse* that every now and then surprises me when an episode appears in my PLAYLIST. Alternately, I can simply run that "saved search" weekly to see if any new episodes are in the GUIDE data.


I have over 100 Wishlists on my TiVo Series 3 (they used to be on my HR10-250).

Ignoring for a minute an issue I have with AUTORECORDs... which I won't go into as I'm not sure if it's a CE issue or there on the NR, if I did AUTORECORDs for every item on my list, my HR23 would most likely be constantly recording... and I'd have to go through my Playlist constantly deleting stuff... something I have no interest in doing.

As for searching goes, I'm not inputting over 100 items weekly to see what's on.



Steve said:


> What are "episode guides"? If they were a feature on my HR10-250's, I forgot what they were. :scratchin Sucks getting old! :lol:


It was not on the HR10-250.... but is available on the Series 3 and has moved front and center on the Series 4. Will be interesting to see if it's one of the new functions on the DirecTiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Lee L said:


> So, even though the words "New box" were used at least twice, you still think they were talking about HR22/23?
> 
> If the HR24 has better processing speed, all the more reason to think they will just have TiVo on that, if they ever actually do anything at all.


Yes I do, for three reasons:

(1) There is no HR24 outside of protected enclaves spread throughout the US.

(2) Presuming that they started development sometime around this press release, which uses the words "the new HD platform," it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the new HD platform they were referring to the HR22 or HR23 platform.

(3) According to this thread, the still-unseen HR24 does not use the same Broadcom chipset as previous TiVo products, while the HR23 and HR22 do. It seems far more logical that TiVo would develop for a chipset it already knows. Although, I will admit that the extraordinary delay could be caused by the choice to code for a completely unknown processor.

Is it "possible" that the new TiVo will use the underlying hardware of the currently vaporous HR24? Heck, it's possible that they'll use a platform based on an Atari 800. Possible, but unlikely.

(That's right, I said "heck.")


----------



## Tom_S

JoeTheDragon said:


> No need for SDV?
> 
> At any time they can move any channel to SDV.


I asked about that. If in the future I need access to SDV then I can pickup a tuning adapter at no charge.


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> Seriously, how can you judge a GUI by a few pictures? The purpose of a GUI is not to look good but to be easy to use and have things where you need them to be in action. I saw nothing that tells me how good or bad the GUI is and when a lot of Tivo-yearners yearned for the Tivo GUI, they were talking about the current cartoon version. That is gone.


Sure, the purpose of a GUI is to get from POINT A to POINT B in a easy and intuitive way.... but if that's all a GUI is, someone could simply make a layout (ala DOS) with with all options available on screen... or like how Disney provided a FEATURE guide on some of their Blu-ray/DVD releases.

Maybe it's because I work with graphics in my job, but I consider how the GUI looks to at least be of some value.

Also, I saw TONS of pictures of TiVo's new GUI.... enough to know pretty much how things are laid out.

It's been said that the new DirecTiVo will be the old look. I have no problem with that... but as for the "TiVo-yearners", I doubt ANYONE would have been complaining "Gee... I wish the GUI was more cartoony".

~Alan


----------



## Steve

oldfantom said:


> It seems to me that they are turning into a company that makes money on their patents [...]


You may be right. And TiVo shareholders are probably very happy with the 60% jump in share price today based on a ruling in one of their current patent litigation suits.


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> First of all, I'm not getting into how some people manage to do workarounds for the SL limit. It's crap... I understand it works, but it's crap!
> 
> I want the ability to have as MANY Series Links/Season Passes as I want. DirecTV may add that later to their newer boxes, but as for right now, they simply do not offer the ability to do so.
> 
> Ignoring for a minute an issue I have with AUTORECORDs... which I won't go into as I'm not sure if it's a CE issue or there on the NR, if I did AUTORECORDs for every item on my list, my HR23 would most likely be constantly recording... and I'd have to go through my Playlist constantly deleting stuff... something I have no interest in doing.
> 
> As for searching goes, I'm not inputting over 100 items weekly to see what's on...


I'm glad someone besides me said "it's crap" first. I use Keyword Autorecords heavily; I have only about 30 SLs, but I would need somewhere around 70 were it not for those combo Autorecords. But I hate having to search the groups in my Playlist -- such as "AANY Bang CSI Flashpoint Ghost NCIS TTITLE CCHAN 4" -- to see what's been recorded. And I hate having to prune all the unwanted reruns that the Keyword Autorecords catch; that bug has been present since Sep '09 (0x034c) and still exists in the current NR (0x03a8).

On my HR10-250, I used to have over 140 Season Passes (including Wishlist Autorecords) and nearly 100 non-recording Wishlists. And the searches the Wishlists represented actually found all the matches that were possible, unlike the HR2x. (It's my wife's HR10-250 now, and we use its Search mainly to find premieres, which the HR2x also sucks at.)

As for MRV, I have only one HR2x. Even if I were ever to have two MRV-capable boxes, I wouldn't pay extra for something that other providers bundle in.


----------



## ATARI

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes I do, for three reasons:
> 
> (1) There is no HR24 outside of protected enclaves spread throughout the US.
> 
> (2) Presuming that they started development sometime around this press release, which uses the words "the new HD platform," it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the new HD platform they were referring to the HR22 or HR23 platform.
> 
> (3) According to this thread, the still-unseen HR24 does not use the same Broadcom chipset as previous TiVo products, while the HR23 and HR22 do. It seems far more logical that TiVo would develop for a chipset it already knows. Although, I will admit that the extraordinary delay could be caused by the choice to code for a completely unknown processor.
> 
> Is it "possible" that the new TiVo will use the underlying hardware of the currently vaporous HR24? Heck, it's possible that they'll use a platform based on an Atari 800. Possible, but unlikely.
> 
> (That's right, I said "heck.")


Perhaps #3 is the reason for the delay. TiVo has the code pretty much done for the HR24, but are waiting for DirecTV to launch the hardware.

Although the 8-bit TiVo solution has my vote!!


----------



## NFLnut

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Have you actually used an HR20? I sold my 2 HR10-250's (for which I paid $999 each) years ago and I've never regretted it.
> 
> Keep in mind that I was a TiVo fanboy and was actually a beta tester way back when we first got 2 tuners.


I have been living in absolute hell with an HR20 since August 2006! Does that answer your question?

I was a TiVo standalone owner when they were ~$1000. I bought two DirecTiVos practically the day they were released. I "may have" participated in a (cough) Beta test (/cough) leading up to dual tuners (I "may have" signed a nondisclosure agreement :-\ ).

There are things I like about the HR20 interface over the TiVo. Being able to peruse the List or schedule a recording without exiting Live TV or a recording is nice, for one. Unfortunately, I can't get the List to come up most of the time, because the HR20 is so SLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWW and nonresponsive that it takes about eight tries to get it to do so! Every time I try to change channels on this POC, t takes eight tries .. for example, say I want to change to channel 529, I first enter "5." It either never responds, or it responds SLOOOOWWWWLY resulting in another press of "5" about 5 seconds later and then I get channel "55." It takes about a minute or two of futile efforts, getting various results of "55" or "59" or "95" or "295" just to get it to go to the channel I want. And this has been going almost every time I attempt to change channels since August 2006. So pardon me if I'm not exactly thrilled with the HR20! And that's just the channel change frustration. There are plenty more. So while they are inventing bells and whistles, they STILL are ignoring getting BASIC FUNCTIONALITY right before moving along!

I never had any of these problems with any of the TiVos (and those SD DirecTivos are still chugging with stock drives from 8/2001) that I own!


----------



## inkahauts

Doug Brott said:


> Not quite sure how you could say that based on this comment:
> 
> Certainly there is room for a fresher version, but it's an update of the same ol' stuff it seems.


I have a feeling that part of the reason it won;t be based on the newest premier is that software seems to be very into online streaming shows and movies, etc, via netflix, and so on, something Directv won;t do since its got its own VOD system.. That would be contrary to logic....


----------



## kiljoy

inkahauts said:


> I have a feeling that part of the reason it won;t be based on the newest premier is that software seems to be very into online streaming shows and movies, etc, via netflix, and so on, something Directv won;t do since its got its own VOD system.. That would be contrary to logic....


I honestly think you're correct, but at the same time there's a lot of value to keeping a consistent look and feel across a brand (particularly a niche brand like TiVo). Even if you took out all the streaming stuff and just kept the DVR functions in the new GUI, it'd be adequate and modern-looking.

Tony


----------



## TBlazer07

Stuart Sweet said:


> Yes I do, for three reasons:
> 
> (1) There is no HR24 outside of protected enclaves spread throughout the US.
> 
> (2) Presuming that they started development sometime around this press release, which uses the words "the new HD platform," it's perfectly reasonable to presume that the new HD platform they were referring to the HR22 or HR23 platform.
> 
> (3) According to this thread, the still-unseen HR24 does not use the same Broadcom chipset as previous TiVo products, while the HR23 and HR22 do. It seems far more logical that TiVo would develop for a chipset it already knows. Although, I will admit that the extraordinary delay could be caused by the choice to code for a completely unknown processor.
> 
> Is it "possible" that the new TiVo will use the underlying hardware of the currently vaporous HR24? Heck, it's possible that they'll use a platform based on an Atari 800. Possible, but unlikely.
> 
> (That's right, I said "heck.")


You don't think DirecTV would have provided TiVo with an HR24 to develop on? Heck , if they gave one to a bunch of CE'rs you might just think TiVo has one. That could possibly be a major reason it's taking so long to release. Frankly, I can't imagine them releasing it on anything but the latest hardware.


----------



## kiljoy

TBlazer07 said:


> You don't think DirecTV would have provided TiVo with an HR24 to develop on? Heck , if they gave one to a bunch of CE'rs you might just think TiVo has one. That could possibly be a major reason it's taking so long to release. Frankly, I can't imagine them releasing it on anything but the latest hardware.


On the one hand, sure, I'd think TiVo would want to develop on the latest hardware. On the other, they didn't bother to incorporate an interface that's been in development for about two years, so...

Tony


----------



## Mike Bertelson

TBlazer07 said:


> You don't think DirecTV would have provided TiVo with an HR24 to develop on? Heck , if they gave one to a bunch of CE'rs you might just think TiVo has one. That could possibly be a major reason it's taking so long to release. Frankly, I can't imagine them releasing it on anything but the latest hardware.


I think developement of the TiVo software probably predates the potential hardware in the potential HR24. At least according the dates on the press releases and the NXP info on the supposed chip.

Based on that I'm still thinkin' it's the HR23....but I've been wrong before. :grin:

Mike


----------



## hdtvfan0001

MicroBeta said:


> I think developement of the TiVo software probably predates the potential hardware in the potential HR24. At least according the dates on the press releases and the NXP info on the supposed chip.
> 
> Based on that I'm still thinkin' it's the HR23....but I've been wrong before. :grin:
> 
> Mike


Agree - we know that the DirecTV new Tivobox project has been underway for over 18 months now, based on various public filings and reports.


----------



## Tom_S

NFLnut said:


> I have been living in absolute hell with an HR20 since August 2006! Does that answer your question?
> 
> I was a TiVo standalone owner when they were ~$1000. I bought two DirecTiVos practically the day they were released. I "may have" participated in a (cough) Beta test (/cough) leading up to dual tuners (I "may have" signed a nondisclosure agreement :-\ ).
> 
> There are things I like about the HR20 interface over the TiVo. Being able to peruse the List or schedule a recording without exiting Live TV or a recording is nice, for one. Unfortunately, I can't get the List to come up most of the time, because the HR20 is so SLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWW and nonresponsive that it takes about eight tries to get it to do so! Every time I try to change channels on this POC, t takes eight tries .. for example, say I want to change to channel 529, I first enter "5." It either never responds, or it responds SLOOOOWWWWLY resulting in another press of "5" about 5 seconds later and then I get channel "55." It takes about a minute or two of futile efforts, getting various results of "55" or "59" or "95" or "295" just to get it to go to the channel I want. And this has been going almost every time I attempt to change channels since August 2006. So pardon me if I'm not exactly thrilled with the HR20! And that's just the channel change frustration. There are plenty more. So while they are inventing bells and whistles, they STILL are ignoring getting BASIC FUNCTIONALITY right before moving along!
> 
> I never had any of these problems with any of the TiVos (and those SD DirecTivos are still chugging with stock drives from 8/2001) that I own!


It still always blows my mind when people that came from the old DirecTivo units complain the HR20 is slow. Those TiVos were slow as sh--! I have NEVER regretted dumping those slugs.


----------



## hancox

MicroBeta said:


> I think developement of the TiVo software probably predates the potential hardware in the potential HR24. At least according the dates on the press releases and the NXP info on the supposed chip.
> 
> Based on that I'm still thinkin' it's the HR23....but I've been wrong before. :grin:
> 
> Mike


You're likely right, but if you are, this is shockingly bad.

In my mind, I can justify the delay of delivery of the new Tivo on:

1) New hardware (HR24)
2) New UI (which we now know isn't coming)
3) Both (again, not coming)

If this is indeed the old OS on "old" kit (says the guy that has 2 HR20's  ), again, WHAT IS THE WAIT FOR?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> It still always blows my mind when people that came from the old DirecTivo units complain the HR20 is slow. *Those TiVos were slow as sh--! I have NEVER regretted dumping those slugs*.


That was my same experience in transitioning to the HR2x units as well, but some other folks certainly can have other views on it. I saw "retiring" my HR1-250 as a very welcome event, but others still enjoy theirs. Clearly a mixed bag views on this.


----------



## Deezul

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That was my same experience in transitioning to the HR2x units as well, but some other folks certainly can have other views on it. I saw "retiring" my HR1-250 as a very welcome event, but others still enjoy theirs. Clearly a mixed bag views on this.


I've held on to one of the two HR10-250s I had to hopefully use as an excuse to get a good deal once the new DirecTiVo is out. And for one TiVo feature the HR2Xs don't have - Closed Captioning staying on with FF1. I haven't had a chance to play with any of the newer TiVos, but if the new ones offer that, I'll be getting one immediately.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

TBlazer07 said:


> (...) Frankly, I can't imagine them releasing it on anything but the latest hardware.


That's funny, because that's exactly what I imagine. Given that they've admitted they won't be using the latest TiVo UI, why is it such a stretch to think that they're behind in the hardware department too?

I can state with metaphysical certitude that TiVo began developing its DIRECTV HD DVR a long, long time before anyone at DBSTalk saw an HR24. And I'm not conceding that anyone at DBSTalk has seen a real, working HR24, not even the guys who made the video.


----------



## Steve

Given how well the H24 is running what appears to be the existing Hxx software environment (based on my understanding of the comments by the first lookers), I'm guessing there are programming tools or tricks available that make porting from the BCM to the NXP platform possible.

Otherwise, if DirecTV had to do a total re-write for the H24, why preserve the SD GUI?


----------



## Mike Bertelson

hancox said:


> You're likely right, but if you are, this is shockingly bad.
> 
> In my mind, I can justify the delay of delivery of the new Tivo on:
> 
> 1) New hardware (HR24)
> 2) New UI (which we now know isn't coming)
> 3) Both (again, not coming)
> 
> If this is indeed the old OS on "old" kit (says the guy that has 2 HR20's  ), again, WHAT IS THE WAIT FOR?


The only thing I can think of that might cause a delay is...maybe DirecTV wants TiVo to include DoD, MRV, and some other functionality to maintain the feature set across all the HR2x's.

In that case they would have to produce an OS that is trying to keep up with a moving target. Maybe they haven't gotten to a point close enough to each other in functionality that works yet.

Of course I'm assuming DirecTV would want the new DirecTiVo to be able to use the current features. Some of which are revenue streams for DirecTV...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Other than that, I got nothin'. :shrug:

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Maybe they just don't have enough coders to support all the hardware they're developing.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Maybe they just don't have enough coders to support all the hardware they're developing.


Then there's that. :grin:

Mike


----------



## bonscott87

NFLnut said:


> I have been living in absolute hell with an HR20 since August 2006! Does that answer your question?
> 
> I was a TiVo standalone owner when they were ~$1000. I bought two DirecTiVos practically the day they were released. I "may have" participated in a (cough) Beta test (/cough) leading up to dual tuners (I "may have" signed a nondisclosure agreement :-\ ).
> 
> There are things I like about the HR20 interface over the TiVo. Being able to peruse the List or schedule a recording without exiting Live TV or a recording is nice, for one. Unfortunately, I can't get the List to come up most of the time, because the HR20 is so SLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOWWW and nonresponsive that it takes about eight tries to get it to do so! Every time I try to change channels on this POC, t takes eight tries .. for example, say I want to change to channel 529, I first enter "5." It either never responds, or it responds SLOOOOWWWWLY resulting in another press of "5" about 5 seconds later and then I get channel "55." It takes about a minute or two of futile efforts, getting various results of "55" or "59" or "95" or "295" just to get it to go to the channel I want. And this has been going almost every time I attempt to change channels since August 2006. So pardon me if I'm not exactly thrilled with the HR20! And that's just the channel change frustration. There are plenty more. So while they are inventing bells and whistles, they STILL are ignoring getting BASIC FUNCTIONALITY right before moving along!
> 
> I never had any of these problems with any of the TiVos (and those SD DirecTivos are still chugging with stock drives from 8/2001) that I own!


Almost sounds like you've never got it replaced? If not you should do so ASAP (as in 3 yrs ago) because HR20's are pretty fast. What you describe sounds like a bad IR receiver. Get it replaced and be happy.


----------



## Ed Campbell

"Maybe they just don't have enough coders to support all the hardware they're developing."

The numbers considered adequate astound me. I watched the Charlie Rose interview with Paul Otellini and the CEO on Intel noted as an aside - something like "people forget we need a certain amount of software to be built in as a command set for our chips. We keep about 5,000 coders on the payroll for that."

Phew!


----------



## TBlazer07

Stuart Sweet said:


> That's funny, because that's exactly what I imagine. Given that they've admitted they won't be using the latest TiVo UI, why is it such a stretch to think that they're behind in the hardware department too?
> 
> I can state with metaphysical certitude that TiVo began developing its DIRECTV HD DVR a long, long time before anyone at DBSTalk saw an HR24. And I'm not conceding that anyone at DBSTalk has seen a real, working HR24, not even the guys who made the video.


Thinking logically, the extra long delay could simply be caused by (as you say) being behind in programming for the new hardware. It's also logical to assume the HR24 series has been in development with "breadboard" units available to TiVo LONG before anyone in CE ever got their field test boxes. While I have no knowledge if anyone in CE does or does not have an HR24, one would have to be pretty naive to think they do not at this point.

That being said, I no longer really care. It's been so long I no longer miss the TiVo lineup. My wife still does just a little but even she's been mostly converted.


----------



## BillyT2008

The big reason I will switch to the new TIVO box when it is made available is that I do not want to be limited to 50 season passes. There is no good reason for the limit.

As for the UI, I'm a UI minimalist and thus I prefer most of the DirecTV UI to the Tivo UI as I perceive the DirecTV UI to have less of a screen presence.

My ultimate DVR UI would never display anything on my HDTV, but all of the UI would be displayed on an OLED screen on an iPad sized remote control. Unfortunately I'm 47 years old and may not live long enough to ever see anyone implement this concept correctly as per my vision for it.

I also want to see all screen bugs outlawed - not because I fear screen burn-in (my Samsung UN46B8500 is mostly immune from it, I think) - but, instead because I just don't want to see anything else on the screen other than what is being broadcast.


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## Sixto

Have always thought that it would take a while for TiVo to support: Port of some new TiVo level to whatever hardware platform was selected plus adding DirecTV MPEG4, SWM, AM21, Interactive Apps, MRV streaming, DirecTV on Demand. 

I guess it's an open question whether the TiVo unit will be TiVo-style MRV or DirecTV-style MRV, or none. But DirecTV-style MRV did take 15+ months.


----------



## D-Bamatech

_"Their [DirecTV's] next implementation of us is not going to have this look and feel," said TiVo's Peter Aquino. "It's based on the classic TiVo."_

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/DIRECTV/TiVo/DirecTV_TiVo_Wont_Be_Premiere/4347


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> I have a feeling that part of the reason it won;t be based on the newest premier is that software seems to be very into online streaming shows and movies, etc, via netflix, and so on, something Directv won;t do since its got its own VOD system.. That would be contrary to logic....


All you do is replace Amazon (and other services) with DirecTV OnDemand. Sure, DirecTV might not have as much available, but it would still be easier to do.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom_S said:


> It still always blows my mind when people that came from the old DirecTivo units complain the HR20 is slow. Those TiVos were slow as sh--! I have NEVER regretted dumping those slugs.


Back when I first got my HR20, I noticed a speed upgrade withn the HR20.

Since that time, I've found out that my HR10-250 is faster at pretty much every function than my HR23-700... and is basically equal to my HR20-700 in speed.

I'd probably faint if I got HR10-250 speed on my HR23-700. 

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Almost sounds like you've never got it replaced? If not you should do so ASAP (as in 3 yrs ago) because HR20's are pretty fast. What you describe sounds like a bad IR receiver. Get it replaced and be happy.


I've had three HR2x units over the years... an HR20-100, HR20-700, and an HR23-700. Of those three units, I've had the same problems over the years. The HR23-700 is particularly bad about it.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> Have always thought that it would take a while for TiVo to support: Port of some new TiVo level to whatever hardware platform was selected plus adding DirecTV MPEG4, SWM, AM21, Interactive Apps, MRV streaming, DirecTV on Demand.


+1

This has been my thinking as well...

~Alan


----------



## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> [...] Since that time, I've found out that my HR10-250 is faster at pretty much every function than my HR23-700... and is basically equal to my HR20-700 in speed [...]


That observation doesn't surprise me at all. I had four HR10's and never thought they were slow, except when watching the To Do List "hourglass" after adding or re-ordering Season's Passes under the 3.x software. The 6.x update took care of that, tho. IIRC, the HR10-250 sports a 167 mhz CPU with either 64mb or 128mb of RAM, depending on revision.

I think an MPEG-4 version of the HR10 would still be a very useful basic recording and TV-watching "appliance" for a lot of folks, especially if memory and CPU-speed were doubled or tripled by current HR2x hardware.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'd agree with you, Steve, and if it were half the price of the HR2x with no additional monthly cost beyond that of the HR2x, it might be a good entry level DVR. But without so many of the HR2x's features, I couldn't see paying _more_ for an HR10 with MPEG-4 capabilities.


----------



## Steve

Stuart Sweet said:


> [...] But without so many of the HR2x's features, I couldn't see paying _more_ for an HR10 with MPEG-4 capabilities.


I hear ya and couldn't agree more. The TiVo logo alone no longer warrants a premium price, IMHO. Tho if they gave me an MPEG-4 HR10 that also supported MRV, I'd probably be willing to pay the same as I would for an HR2x with more bells and whistles.

Of course, I say that without knowing what the forthcoming DirecTV "whole home" DVR experience will be. It it's a 2 TB box capable of four simultaneous recordings that can support 5-6 diskless clients, I'd sign-up for that in a heartbeat.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> That observation doesn't surprise me at all. I had four HR10's and never thought they were slow, except when watching the To Do List "hourglass" after adding or re-ordering Season's Passes under the 3.x software. The 6.x update took care of that, tho. IIRC, the HR10-250 sports a 167 mhz CPU with either 64mb or 128mb of RAM, depending on revision.


Yeah, prior to the 6.x update, I'd say the HR20-700 might still be faster than the HR10-250 instead of just equal. The HR23-700 however would still be slower.



Steve said:


> I think an MPEG-4 version of the HR10 would still be a *very useful basic recording and TV-watching "appliance" for a lot of folks*, especially if memory and CPU-speed were doubled or tripled by current HR2x hardware.


I've always been a firm believer in different strokes for different folks, and the bolded part above just strengthens that as that has always been my thoughts regarding the HR2x DVRs.



Stuart Sweet said:


> I'd agree with you, Steve, and if it were half the price of the HR2x with no additional monthly cost beyond that of the HR2x, it might be a good entry level DVR. But without so many of the HR2x's features, I couldn't see paying _more_ for an HR10 with MPEG-4 capabilities.


Back when I got my HR10-250, I paid $399 to own it. Back when I got my HR20, I waited until I could get it for free since I was losing functionality and leasing the unit. Since that time, DirecTV has improved the HR2x considerably, so I would pay $100 for a HR20/HR24... and $0 for the models in between.

While I don't like paying an upfront fee for a leased item (and that goes for the $100 mentioned above as well), I'd pay $200 for a DirecTV and a $3-$5 extra (per account) fee for the TiVo. More than that, it'd be tough. If the TiVo was fully featured, I'd probably pay more $$$.



Steve said:


> Of course, I say that without knowing what the forthcoming DirecTV "whole home" DVR experience will be. It it's a 2 TB box capable of four simultaneous recordings that can support 5-6 diskless clients, I'd sign-up for that in a heartbeat.


As I've stated before... I like the idea myself... but not the possible issues it could bring with it.

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Mr. Gordon, you and I agree on the idea that it's good to have choices. It seems like we'd choose differently, but I see nothing wrong with that.


----------



## inkahauts

TBlazer07 said:


> You don't think DirecTV would have provided TiVo with an HR24 to develop on? Heck , if they gave one to a bunch of CE'rs you might just think TiVo has one. That could possibly be a major reason it's taking so long to release. Frankly, I can't imagine them releasing it on anything but the latest hardware.


Problem is, you don't want to program based on hardware that might be changing, when you have to almost start from scratch, because they have never programed a DVR to work with DirecTV and SWM, MPEG-4, MRV, etc... on the directv platform that we have today.. The old HR10 could not be used as a jumping off point... So since we still haven;t seen an HR24 yet, I would venture that it was too early in its infancy of being developed from a hardware standpoint to use to create software for.. Its not like computers, these things are coded far more specifically for their internal parts and such... Thats why I think saying it'd be based on a product that has yet to see the light of day is at best a 50/50 prospect at this point.


----------



## inkahauts

hancox said:


> You're likely right, but if you are, this is shockingly bad.
> 
> In my mind, I can justify the delay of delivery of the new Tivo on:
> 
> 1) New hardware (HR24)
> 2) New UI (which we now know isn't coming)
> 3) Both (again, not coming)
> 
> If this is indeed the old OS on "old" kit (says the guy that has 2 HR20's  ), again, WHAT IS THE WAIT FOR?


Tivo has probably been trying to get their new premier out first... and they are probably having a lot harder time making tivo work with all the new things directv has since the last time they created a directv receiver, like swm, mpeg-4 decoding off of sat, 1080p, and so on... There is a lot more than than was before, that they have no experience with. And they are probably not going to release a unit before they get some of the bigger kinks worked out like directv did with the hr20s...

And everyone does realize that the HR10 was came out about a year later than it was supposed too, so this is nothing new form Tivo...


----------



## inkahauts

Alan Gordon said:


> All you do is replace Amazon (and other services) with DirecTV OnDemand. Sure, DirecTV might not have as much available, but it would still be easier to do.
> 
> ~Alan


IF they did what I think they did, not that easy.. I think they created a system that when you start a search, it searches a lot for sites, and then will offer up all the places that you can view from.. thats not acceptable for Directv, which means their entire searching system and databases would have to be changed in the way they execute a search, meaning this isn't a simple replace a with b and your done.. Its a rewrite, if they did what I think they did.. And who knows about licensing agreements for this software and the search and providers they may have signed...


----------



## inkahauts

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm curious as to your meaning?
> 
> TiVo does need to catch up to the HRs, but the HRs also need to catch up to TiVo.
> 
> Where do you think the TiVo is trying to catch up to the HR?
> 
> ~Alan


I know of nothing that he HRs need to do to catch up with the tivos.. Unless your making an argument for season pass limit, (which I have a way around myself)..

But its nice to see they have added the IMDB info and pics, which DIrectv has had for a little while, the PIG which makes me assume they have made the machine more open to multi tasking by the user, which you have been able to do with the HRs from day one, as well as replaytvs, and ultimate tvs, but have never been able to do with tivos... Their biggest hold back IMHO....

However, I would have to play with it some, because they may have made it too difficult to navigate by giving people too many options on some of the things they did, and made it more difficult to figure out what your actually doing at any one time.. Not sure...


----------



## SledgeHammer

Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Gordon, you and I agree on the idea that it's good to have choices. It seems like we'd choose differently, but I see nothing wrong with that.


Well, honestly, there is no point in having a choice (as for as equipment goes). I'm guessing you've been on DTV at least as long as I have. Don't you remember how it was in the beginning? There were about 20 different receivers people could choose from at any given time. Everybody and their mamma and their mammas mamma made one. Lots of manafacturers even made multiple models of essentially the same thing. Sony? They had the A50, the A55, the B50, the B55, the SAT-T60, etc. Toshiba had a bunch too. Hughes had about 10,000 different boxes.

DTV did the right thing by taking away all the licenses. Sonys boxes were no better then Toshibas, etc. They were all the same thing in a different chasis.

There should simply be a standard def, a standard def DVR, a hi def and a hi def DVR. Dunno why you would need more then that.


----------



## SledgeHammer

inkahauts said:


> Tivo has probably been trying to get their new premier out first... and they are probably having a lot harder time making tivo work with all the new things directv has since the last time they created a directv receiver, like swm, mpeg-4 decoding off of sat, 1080p, and so on... There is a lot more than than was before, that they have no experience with. And they are probably not going to release a unit before they get some of the bigger kinks worked out like directv did with the hr20s...
> 
> And everyone does realize that the HR10 was came out about a year later than it was supposed too, so this is nothing new form Tivo...


Whats so hard about slapping a Tivo skin on a DirecTV box? Thats all it is. Not like Tivo is modding the hardware or OS.


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## Jeremy W

SledgeHammer said:


> Whats so hard about slapping a Tivo skin on a DirecTV box? Thats all it is. Not like Tivo is modding the hardware or OS.


The OS is totally different.


----------



## JoeTheDragon

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, honestly, there is no point in having a choice (as for as equipment goes). I'm guessing you've been on DTV at least as long as I have. Don't you remember how it was in the beginning? There were about 20 different receivers people could choose from at any given time. Everybody and their mamma and their mammas mamma made one. Lots of manafacturers even made multiple models of essentially the same thing. Sony? They had the A50, the A55, the B50, the B55, the SAT-T60, etc. Toshiba had a bunch too. Hughes had about 10,000 different boxes.
> 
> DTV did the right thing by taking away all the licenses. Sonys boxes were no better then Toshibas, etc. They were all the same thing in a different chasis.
> 
> There should simply be a standard def, a standard def DVR, a hi def and a hi def DVR. Dunno why you would need more then that.


dump the SD boxes and go all HD / mpeg 4


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## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> IF they did what I think they did, not that easy.. I think they created a system that when you start a search, it searches a lot for sites, and then will offer up all the places that you can view from.. thats not acceptable for Directv, which means their entire searching system and databases would have to be changed in the way they execute a search, meaning this isn't a simple replace a with b and your done.. Its a rewrite, if they did what I think they did.. And who knows about licensing agreements for this software and the search and providers they may have signed...





Alan Gordon said:


> All you do is replace Amazon (and other services) with DirecTV OnDemand. Sure, DirecTV might not have as much available, but it would still be easier to do.





inkahauts said:


> IF they did what I think they did, not that easy.. I think they created a system that when you start a search, it searches a lot for sites, and then will offer up all the places that you can view from.. thats not acceptable for Directv, which means their entire searching system and databases would have to be changed in the way they execute a search, meaning this isn't a simple replace a with b and your done.. Its a rewrite, if they did what I think they did.. And who knows about licensing agreements for this software and the search and providers they may have signed...


OK, I concede that writing the software may be more difficult than simply swapping them out. The last time I wrote software, I wasn't even in my teens yet.

My point was simply that instead of bringing up results for Amazon, you bring up results for DirecTV OnDemand.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> I know of nothing that he HRs need to do to catch up with the tivos.. Unless your making an argument for season pass limit, (which I have a way around myself)..


There are many areas where the TiVos are superior. There are areas where the HR2x are superior.

You are correct that one of the ways the TiVo is superior is the lack of limits on Series Links. It's great that you have a way around, but I prefer not having to work around something.

The search functions on the TiVo are superior as well.

Though the HR2x units have surpassed the previous DirecTiVo units in cast information, the stand-alone TiVo's are superior to the HR2x units... which makes the search functions on the stand-alone TiVos even better than the search functions on the DirecTiVo's.



inkahauts said:


> But its nice to see they have added the IMDB info and pics, which DIrectv has had for a little while


TiVo has had filmographies (and pictures) on their stand-alones via TiVo Search prior to DirecTV adding it in either a NR or a CE.... though DirecTV was first in putting them in the program information. It's not the first time TiVo has added, or modified a feature that DirecTV had first.

BTW, the above was another way in which DirecTV caught up with TiVo, and a way in which TiVo is catching up with DirecTV.

A way in which TiVo needs to catch up with DirecTV, is that the filmographies are apparently limited to what Amazon has available via their OnDemand service.... whereas DirecTV appears to get their information from Tribune.... providing a better detailed resume.

Another way in which DirecTV needs to catch up with TiVo is the ability to set autorecords for filmographies results.



inkahauts said:


> the PIG which makes me assume they have made the machine more open to multi tasking by the user, which you have been able to do with the HRs from day one, as well as replaytvs, and ultimate tvs, but have never been able to do with tivos... Their biggest hold back IMHO....


I'm happy to see a PiG on the TiVo Premiere. I'm not happy to see a PiL and PiM... HELLO... it's a DVR people! Hopefully they will allow an option to turn it off.



inkahauts said:


> However, I would have to play with it some, because they may have made it too difficult to navigate by giving people too many options on some of the things they did, and made it more difficult to figure out what your actually doing at any one time.. Not sure...


I'm not happy with some of the re-naming, and some of the options could be more easily described... but it doesn't appear to be any more difficult to me.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Mr. Gordon, you and I agree on the idea that it's good to have choices. It seems like we'd choose differently, but I see nothing wrong with that.


That's what makes the world go 'round! 



SledgeHammer said:


> Well, honestly, there is no point in having a choice (as for as equipment goes). I'm guessing you've been on DTV at least as long as I have. Don't you remember how it was in the beginning? There were about 20 different receivers people could choose from at any given time.


Aah yes... the good old days! 



SledgeHammer said:


> Sonys boxes were no better then Toshibas, etc. They were all the same thing in a different chasis.


While there were multiple models that were the same in different exteriors... particularly during the HD STB days, not all boxes were the same... and some units were FAR superior to others.



SledgeHammer said:


> There should simply be a standard def, a standard def DVR, a hi def and a hi def DVR. Dunno why you would need more then that.


CHOICES.

~Alan


----------



## JBernardK

SledgeHammer said:


> Well, honestly, there is no point in having a choice (as for as equipment goes). I'm guessing you've been on DTV at least as long as I have. Don't you remember how it was in the beginning? There were about 20 different receivers people could choose from at any given time. Everybody and their mamma and their mammas mamma made one. Lots of manafacturers even made multiple models of essentially the same thing. Sony? They had the A50, the A55, the B50, the B55, the SAT-T60, etc. Toshiba had a bunch too. Hughes had about 10,000 different boxes.
> 
> DTV did the right thing by taking away all the licenses. Sonys boxes were no better then Toshibas, etc. They were all the same thing in a different chasis.
> 
> There should simply be a standard def, a standard def DVR, a hi def and a hi def DVR. Dunno why you would need more then that.


And how is that good for the customer??


----------



## mitchelljd

I find it sad that the word on the street is that Directv's new HD Tivo box will be
1- based on the old tivo architecture, not new software they just announced
2- may not have any network functionality. No Netflix, Blockbuster or Netflix streaming

I have some very important capabilities that it looks like directv is preventing full capability of many functions
1- is there going to be the ability of MRV?
2- any tivo 2 go capabilities? Mac 2 Tivo? ability to backup content to Disc. hard drive on home network and more.
3- Directv on demand? full directv capability

i want a fully functional Tivo for directv, not a


----------



## bonscott87

mitchelljd said:


> I find it sad that the word on the street is that Directv's new HD Tivo box will be
> 1- based on the old tivo architecture, not new software they just announced


Definitely a puzzler there and a blunder by Tivo IMHO.



> 2- may not have any network functionality. No Netflix, Blockbuster or Netflix streaming


We already knew it wouldn't have Netflix and so forth. That directly competes with DirecTV. Now if DirecTV were to sign a deal with Netflix then sure, it will be in there. But since DirecTV is coming out with a new service to compete with Netflix, we already knew it wouldn't be there. But most certainly it will have network functionality, it just has to be the DirecTV platform. Which again we already knew from the press release in 2008.



> I have some very important capabilities that it looks like directv is preventing full capability of many functions
> 1- is there going to be the ability of MRV?


That we don't know. If there is it would be the DirecTV version, see above.



> 2- any tivo 2 go capabilities? Mac 2 Tivo?


Again, I think we already know the answer to this is no. Any type of "2 Go" capabilities would the DirecTV version, if one exists.



> ability to backup content to Disc. hard drive on home network and more.


No way that is going to happen. DirecTV wont' allow it due to DRM and you can pretty much count on these being very hard to hack. Heck, the delay may be just that, Tivo can't find a way to make their own boxes unhackable. :lol:



> 3- Directv on demand? full directv capability


One would think that is a requirement.


----------



## harsh

mitchelljd said:


> 2- any tivo 2 go capabilities? Mac 2 Tivo? ability to backup content to Disc. hard drive on home network and more.


Not going to happen.

In fact, I'll bet none of these were contemplated. There may have been a fleeting moment spent dreaming about DIRECTV2Mac.

It is important to consider that while these features exist in current TiVo software, their use is decidedly limited based on content and will likely become more limited as time goes on.


----------



## MNT

The release of the TiVo Premiere makes it pretty clear to me that satellite companies should be bound by the same rules as the cable companies, with regard to making their programming available on any certified hardware that wants to support it. All my complaints about the Directv DVR would be solved if I could just stick a Directv access card in a TiVo Premiere. I imagine TiVo would be crazy for that idea -- it's Directv that wants us locked into their boxes.


----------



## Doug Brott

SledgeHammer said:


> Whats so hard about slapping a Tivo skin on a DirecTV box? Thats all it is. Not like Tivo is modding the hardware or OS.





Jeremy W said:


> The OS is totally different.


It's quite possible that much of that OS is being written for the flash area as well vs. being on disk. I'm sure DIRECTV (or TiVo for that matter) doesn't want to have the system bee hackable ..


----------



## P Smith

I pretty sure original development done using disk OS, but getting into beta stage the code made flash only.


----------



## Doug Brott

MNT said:


> The release of the TiVo Premiere makes it pretty clear to me that satellite companies should be bound by the same rules as the cable companies, with regard to making their programming available on any certified hardware that wants to support it. All my complaints about the Directv DVR would be solved if I could just stick a Directv access card in a TiVo Premiere. I imagine TiVo would be crazy for that idea -- it's Directv that wants us locked into their boxes.


If only the world were so simple .. That TiVo Premiere of yours would cost a lot more (and be much bigger) if it had Satellite tuners in addition to Cable Tuners. There there would be a lot of other technical issues to be considered as well to make use on DISH or DIRECTV .. and for what? Still the bulk of the customers would take the homegrown stuff.

This doesn't even consider the likely limiting effect such legislation would have on improving technology. DIRECTV has switched from the old 3-LNB system to a switched 5-LNB HD system to a Single Wire distribution system and all of this in just the past 5ish years. I don't think the current cable card system has worked, I don't think a new and improved version of it will work either.


----------



## Doug Brott

P Smith said:


> I pretty sure original development done using disk OS, but getting into beta stage the code made flash only.


This doesn't sound unreasonable.


----------



## Doug Brott

mitchelljd said:


> I find it sad that the word on the street is that Directv's new HD Tivo box will be
> 1- based on the old tivo architecture, not new software they just announced
> 2- may not have any network functionality. No Netflix, Blockbuster or Netflix streaming
> 
> *I have some very important capabilities that it looks like directv is preventing full capability of many functions*
> 1- is there going to be the ability of MRV?
> 2- any tivo 2 go capabilities? Mac 2 Tivo? ability to backup content to Disc. hard drive on home network and more.
> 3- Directv on demand? full directv capability
> 
> i want a fully functional Tivo for directv, not a


It's not clear what the final product will look like, but one thing is for sure .. The ball is in TiVo's court.


----------



## Alan Gordon

mitchelljd said:


> I find it sad that the word on the street is that Directv's new HD Tivo box will be
> 1- based on the old tivo architecture, not new software they just announced
> 2- may not have any network functionality. No Netflix, Blockbuster or Netflix streaming
> 
> *I have some very important capabilities that it looks like directv is preventing full capability of many functions*
> 1- is there going to be the ability of MRV?
> 2- any tivo 2 go capabilities? Mac 2 Tivo? ability to backup content to Disc. hard drive on home network and more.
> 3- Directv on demand? full directv capability
> 
> i want a fully functional Tivo for directv, not a





Doug Brott said:


> It's not clear what the final product will look like, but one thing is for sure .. The ball is in TiVo's court.


If you're replying to the part of his post that you bolded. I disagree!

I seriously doubt DirecTV will allow Netflix and Amazon streaming. It's possible they would allow YouTube, but I'm not sure about MusicChoice.

I also doubt we'll see TiVo2Go capabilities on the new unit.

I also expect the hard drive space usage (showing how much space a recording takes up of the hard drive) to be missing.

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> I don't think the current cable card system has worked, I don't think a new and improved version of it will work either.


It hasn't. The FCC has admitted that it's a failure and has been looking for input on something to replace it.

Besides the fact that many cable companies are already abandoning cable cards for other technologies like SDV and most likely the FCC regulation on having cable cards has probably hurt the cable industry moving to new technologies in a similar fast fashion as you mention DirecTV has.

This is a high technology industry. What is the "norm" now will be obsolete in 2 years. The FCC should *not* be mandating anything technology wise like cable cards when all it does in the end is hurt consumers, not help, by stopping or slowing innovation. Heck, if all of a sudden the FCC said that Tru 2 Way was the new standard we all know it will probably be done and off to something new in 2-3 years. But if it's regulation then all of a sudden things come to a halt in terms of getting new and better technology to the consumer.


----------



## mitchelljd

harsh said:


> Not going to happen.
> 
> In fact, I'll bet none of these were contemplated. There may have been a fleeting moment spent dreaming about DIRECTV2Mac.
> 
> It is important to consider that while these features exist in current TiVo software, their use is decidedly limited based on content and will likely become more limited as time goes on.


honestly, if i can get all this functionality on Tivo boxes that work with Cable... and Directv may be so damn stubborn to prevent the content being used as we see fit. when i can get the same damned channels via CABLE. i may just switch.

as a consumer, i don't want to be locked into a service which is well... screwing consumers on capabilities which other providers do NOT block out. Sorry but i don't buy any of the reasons being labeled from Directv or offered on as reasons.

People want to pay for content and the ability to use it as they see fit in their own home. this is what Tivo is offering ... which is the real reason to have it instead of Directv's HR series devices. sorry, i want to be empowered to be able to use content as i see fit. no sharing over internet, but just be able to enjoy. keep for later.

Oh well, with how Directv is doing at adding national HD channels... i may be making a move shortly away from them. just depends on what their Tivo box will look like.

sorry gang, many of you can rationalize restrictions on use as reasonable. but it that is like sticking heads in the dirt to ignore progress. times are a changing. and people want to be able to use their paid for content ... have ability to use it on many of their devices. and not be restricted. outside of having a hard drive on a DVR, it is like people at directv are stomping on all the rights people have from recording content onto simple things like Betamax/VHS, DVD and now Blu-Ray or hard drives.

This is an important issue and it feels like Directv is getting more closed and it isn't something i will financially support.

if broadcasters set restrictions on programs via flags, it is one thing. but if Directv is doing a content flag on everything and blocking technology, i just wont be ok with that


----------



## bidger

You might want to check at TCF for how many customers have to deal with a "Copy Never" flag on their digital channel recordings set by their cable systems before you migrate.


----------



## harsh

bidger said:


> You might want to check at TCF for how many customers have to deal with a "Copy Never" flag on their digital channel recordings set by their cable systems before you migrate.


Due diligence is hard. It is easier to hope for your ideal and scream bloody murder when it doesn't turn out that way.


----------



## bonscott87

bidger said:


> You might want to check at TCF for how many customers have to deal with a "Copy Never" flag on their digital channel recordings set by their cable systems before you migrate.


No kidding. The reason the restriction is there is because of Hollywood/MPAA. DirecTV itself could care less but they need to play nice with Hollywood and the channel providers.

Now that cable is going all digital (or more and more digital every day) cable is placing the same restriction on much of the content. So the all mighty Tivo might have the *ability* to copy content to a computer or mobile device, but what good does that do you when the cable company prevents it in the first place? If you are lucky to have a cable system that doesn't set the copy never flag then good for you. But don't expect that to last, especially if it's one of the big ones like Comcast, Time Warner, Charter or Cox.

I doubt many agree with it, but there isn't much we can do about it.


----------



## bonscott87

harsh said:


> Due diligence is hard. It is easier to hope for your ideal and scream bloody murder when it doesn't turn out that way.


Yea, why would anyone want to actually do research into why things are the way they are.


----------



## bonscott87

mitchelljd said:


> sorry gang, many of you can rationalize restrictions on use as reasonable. but it that is like sticking heads in the dirt to ignore progress. times are a changing. and people want to be able to use their paid for content ... have ability to use it on many of their devices. and not be restricted. outside of having a hard drive on a DVR, it is like people at directv are stomping on all the rights people have from recording content onto simple things like Betamax/VHS, DVD and now Blu-Ray or hard drives.
> 
> This is an important issue and it feels like Directv is getting more closed and it isn't something i will financially support.
> 
> if broadcasters set restrictions on programs via flags, it is one thing. but if Directv is doing a content flag on everything and blocking technology, i just wont be ok with that


Might want to get your facts straight. Most people here would agree with you that it's bunk. But it is the way it is, talk to the MPAA if you'd like to get it changed. DirecTV is just "following orders" so to speak in their contracts. They lock it down just so there isn't any problem. Now that cable is moving digital and can do the same thing they are as the MPAA is putting pressure on them to do it. The MPAA is like the mafia, you either do it "for your own good" or else you won't get access to the latest movies for your PPV/On demand offerings, or your next contract won't get renewed at a rate you feel is fair, you know, all that good stuff.

This restriction will always be with us, nothing we can do about it unless you can somehow convince the government to step in and put an end to it. Like that will happen with the MPAA lobby.


----------



## texasmoose

All i want to know is if the new Tivo D* collaboration is going to measure up to spec with the new TiVo Premiere?


----------



## bidger

texasmoose said:


> All i want to know is if the new Tivo D* collaboration is going to measure up to spec with the new TiVo Premiere?


The link that D-Bamatech provided a few pages back. Doesn't look like it.


----------



## texasmoose

bidger said:


> The link that D-Bamatech provided a few pages back. Doesn't look like it.


that's pretty wack then:nono2:, guess im going to Fios & getting the premiere as soon as my contract expires in a couple months. I'll also save about $50 a month on the triple play bundled savings.


----------



## bonscott87

texasmoose said:


> All i want to know is if the new Tivo D* collaboration is going to measure up to spec with the new TiVo Premiere?


Why would it? It's going to be on DirecTV hardware, not the Tivo Premier hardware. We've known that since the original press release in 3rd quarter 2008.

None of this is really anything new over what we knew a year and a half ago, only a confirmation that the new DirecTivo HD unit will *not* be using the Tivo Premier GUI but the old Tivo classic GUI. Hardware specs have never changed. It should be based on the HR22/23 or if we're lucky the HR24 which is much faster.

Then again from what I've seen and read, the performance of the Tivo Premier really isn't all that. It's build in Flash for crying out loud (yuk) and seems to have to poll the Internet for every little thing. They've got a lot of cleaning up to do if they don't want it to blow chunks in the performance department for the average user. You can have the fastest hardware on the planet but that doesn't mean your interface performance is going to be good if it's poorly programmed.


----------



## texasmoose

Well, I hope the HR24 fares better on this chart.


----------



## gregjones

texasmoose said:


> Well, I hope the HR24 fares better on this chart.


The chart seems fairly random. This is not a general purpose PC. It has a very clearly defined purpose, for which it was built. If they put in an overpowered chip and raised the price $100 per unit, it would be a stupid idea. All that should matter is whether the performance of its core functions falls within an acceptable range.


----------



## hancox

Well put. Also depends on if any common tasks are "instructionized" on the CPU (or thrown to a distinct chip), when comparing. Clock speed / DMIPS are only like/like for similarly-processed tasks.


----------



## Mike Greer

The chart doesn't seem to be of much use on gauging speed...

The Dish Network 622 is a boat-load faster than the HR20 in reality but on the chart they are the same!


----------



## Doug Brott

Mike Greer said:


> The chart doesn't seem to be of much use on gauging speed...
> 
> The Dish Network 622 is a boat-load faster than the HR20 in reality but on the chart they are the same!


I think that's the point the two posters before you were trying to make.


----------



## Mike Greer

Doug Brott said:


> I think that's the point the two posters before you were trying to make.


Sorry - I forgot the word 'Yep' at the beginning of that sentence..... Was attempting to agree with them.


----------



## P Smith

Mike Greer said:


> The chart doesn't seem to be of much use on gauging speed...
> 
> The Dish Network 622 is a boat-load faster than the HR20 in reality but on the chart they are the same!


Because:
a) it's the same chip (BCM7038) and the chart took just one part of it - CPU 
b) they pick just one tests - calculating some math.

But you can't compare 622 and HR20 by CPU throughput - it's just one part of "*DUAL HD DIGITAL VIDEO SYSTEM-ON-CHIP*"; add to that different stream ideology (dish using world standard - DVB, DTV - his own architecture of system data). Add to that other significant piece - code (FW), structures, etc.


----------



## Mike Greer

P Smith said:


> Because:
> a) it's the same chip (BCM7038) and the chart took just one part of it - CPU
> b) they pick just one tests - calculating some math.
> 
> But you can't compare 622 and HR20 by CPU throughput - it's just one part of "*DUAL HD DIGITAL VIDEO SYSTEM-ON-CHIP*"; add to that different stream ideology (dish using world standard - DVB, DTV - his own architecture of system data). Add to that other significant piece - code (FW), structures, etc.


Yep.


----------



## texasmoose

Obviously, there are more benchmarks, than just the processor speed benchmark, involved with any successful platform. We all know the HR2X family has been a work in progress, but you have to start somewhere. Whenever I build my own rig the first thing that I always do is start with a fast, multi-core processor. All the other things like: Chipset, FSB, RAM, hard drive, OS, video card and the like will either give me my full potential or cap it. I'm sure Tivo will constantly update firmware that will make the premiere a good choice for folks. I'm bummed that DBS peeps won't be able to enjoy it.


----------



## fairsailing

In tonight's TiVo 4th quarter conference call Tom Rogers is now saying "2nd half of the year" for the new TiVo HD DTV box. He did not provide any detail as to why.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Did he say which year?


----------



## Sixto

He actually said "latter half of the year", then "latter part of the year". 27:34 minutes into the call. 2010.

While it seems typical for project to be delayed, it's quite interesting to think about all of the comments by Tom Rogers. 

Personally, I thing I've listened to every TiVo analyst call and each call has included different words. 

Went from "2009", to "late 2009", to "2010", to now "latter part of 2010". All with no explanation. At least four calls, all different dates, and it slips every call.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Stuart Sweet said:


> Did he say which year?


Ba-Dum-Bum-Crash 

Hopefuly this year, but "latter half" is a long span. Nothing like third quarter but an entire half a year. It just seems odd to me...almost too vague. :shrug:

Soon! 

Mike


----------



## Sixto

MicroBeta said:


> Ba-Dum-Bum-Crash
> 
> Hopefuly this year, but "latter half" is a long span. Nothing like third quarter but an entire half a year. It just seems odd to me...almost too vague. :shrug:
> 
> Soon!
> 
> Mike


If you listen to his voice, he doesn't sound very confident.

Also, as I just added to the previous post, it's somewhat hard now to attach any credibility to any of these comments.

I always thought highly of Rogers, but I've now personally listened to every analyst call and the story has changed almost every call.

I'm just a casual observer at this point ... really have very little to no interest but was interested to see how it played out.


----------



## loudo

Sixto said:


> If you listen to his voice, he doesn't sound very confident.
> 
> Also, as I just added to the previous post, it's somewhat hard now to attach any credibility to any of these comments.
> 
> I always thought highly of Rogers, but I've now personally listened to every analyst call and the story has changed almost every call.
> 
> I'm just a casual observer at this point ... really have very little to no interest but was interested to see how it played out.


You notice DirecTV is not coming out with any dates.


----------



## bonscott87

loudo said:


> You notice DirecTV is not coming out with any dates.


They never have.

I've listened to every DirecTV quarterly results and conference call (other then the last couple) since the original announcement and only once has DirecTV even mentioned the word Tivo and that was about a year ago when an analyst actually asked a question about Tivo and the answer wasn't much more then what the press release in mid 2008 said.

It's been pretty obvious all along that DirecTV really could care less about the new Tivo box one way or another. And I think the longer that Tivo delays it the more DirecTV won't care about it and if Tivo isn't careful DirecTV could pull the plug on it because pretty soon it would be such a niche product that it wouldn't be worth it for DirecTV to try to support it.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Sixto said:


> If you listen to his voice, he doesn't sound very confident.
> 
> Also, as I just added to the previous post, it's somewhat hard now to attach any credibility to any of these comments.
> 
> I always thought highly of Rogers, but I've now personally listened to every analyst call and the story has changed almost every call.
> 
> I'm just a casual observer at this point ... really have very little to no interest but was interested to see how it played out.


I agree with you. The lack of confidence and credibility is what gives me pause.

Mike


----------



## Syzygy

bonscott87 said:


> It's been pretty obvious all along that DirecTV *really could care less* about the new Tivo box one way or another. And I think the longer that Tivo delays it the more DirecTV won't care about it and if Tivo isn't careful DirecTV could pull the plug on it because pretty soon it would be such a niche product that it wouldn't be worth it for DirecTV to try to support it.


_Couldn't_ care less. Pet peeve of mine. 

Anyhoo, you could be right about DirecTV maybe pulling the plug on the new Tivo box. Are they allowed to do that, or does the contract prevent it?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I'm not sure what the contract allows. But it does seem like my forecast of 1Q11 may even be optimistic.


----------



## celticpride

I would be shocked if directv were to pull the plug on tivo,as it is i'm thinking of pulling the the plug on directv.I'm wating to see what the new directivo has to offer,but if they wait to long i'll switch to fios get the new tivo premiere.


----------



## slimoli

I don't know about you guys but I'm pretty happy with the HRs now, after MRV got stable. I love TiVo and had both the 250 and the S3 when I had cable but Directv is doig a really good job developing the Hrs. I prefer the way D* implemented the MVR, for example.


----------



## RobertE

When the initial announcement was made the HR21/22 was top of the line. Since then we have seen the HR23 and before too much longer the HR24. Tivo needs to get off their backsides and put something out, or be rendered irrelevant.


----------



## Deezul

celticpride said:


> I would be shocked if directv were to pull the plug on tivo,as it is i'm thinking of pulling the the plug on directv.I'm wating to see what the new directivo has to offer,but if they wait to long i'll switch to fios get the new tivo premiere.


Since I doubt D* is losing money over the deal signed a few years ago that included cross-licensing of technology, they probably could not  care less when TiVo comes out. D* can do whatever they want with the HR2X series, knowing full well TiVo won't sue them. If and when TiVo comes out with a box, D* will put it out, but probably won't give it a big push. Why should they if it won't do MRV? I'm seriously considering dumping my last HR10 for a free HR2X swap.


----------



## tonyd79

celticpride said:


> I would be shocked if directv were to pull the plug on tivo,as it is i'm thinking of pulling the the plug on directv.I'm wating to see what the new directivo has to offer,but if they wait to long i'll switch to fios get the new tivo premiere.


Wouldn't you want to see if Tivo is still Tivo before making that decision? It is possible that the Premiere falls flat or experiences instability. It is a new ballgame on Tivo's end with a code rewrite of some level. They could be better, or they could be worse. Their reliability has slipped a bit with the HD and that was more or less just putting HD on a box. The Premiere is a bit more. (But Fios can be tempting....)


----------



## bonscott87

Syzygy said:


> Anyhoo, you could be right about DirecTV maybe pulling the plug on the new Tivo box. Are they allowed to do that, or does the contract prevent it?


If the Tivo delays are a breach of contract I'm sure DirecTV can walk. Same for Tivo the other way.

The only publicly available document I can find is the SEC filings. Here is a link: http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...tbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9NjAyMjE5MCZkb2M9Ng==

Section 9 is about Termination of the agreement. Not that dates and numbers in this document are redacted with [*] symbols.



> 9.1 Term. The term of this Agreement (the "Term") begins on the Effective Date and continues through February 15, 2015, unless extended or terminated as set forth in this Article IX. DIRECTV may, in its sole discretion, unilaterally extend the Term through February 15, 2018 by written notice to TiVo at anytime between [*] and [*].
> 
> 9.2 Termination for Material Default. Either party may terminate this Agreement if the other party materially breaches this Agreement and fails to cure such breach within sixty (60) days after receipt of written notice thereof from the non-breaching party.


So this is saying for example is if Tivo has a deadline of say Dec 31st, 2010 to have a working box for sale (just making up a date) then DirecTV could terminate the agreement within 60 days.

The next section. "TE" is the code being used for the new Tivo software on DirecTV hardware.



> 9.4 Termination for Non-TiVo Delay. TiVo shall have the right to terminate this Agreement, effective [*], upon written notice to DIRECTV by [*], if TiVo is unable to submit to DIRECTV a version of the TE Software for Final Acceptance Testing by [*] (including, but not limited to, an inability to submit a version of the TE Software caused by the parties' inability to agree on the terms of the TE Solution Statement of Work), or such later date as agreed to by the parties, based on [*], provided that TiVo [*]. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Article IX or in this Agreement, if TiVo notifies DIRECTV that TiVo is exercising its right to terminate this Agreement pursuant to this Section 9.4, then (i) DIRECTV will pay applicable DVR/PVR Service Fees through February 15, 2012; (ii) the
> TE Solution Statement of Work and any other PCR shall terminate without penalty or liability to either party related thereto, any available Development Credits will be applied toward any outstanding invoices not yet paid by DIRECTV, and DIRECTV shall pay any remaining amounts under any such outstanding invoices for work performed to date (at a pro-rata amount, according to the percentage of hours completed to the next milestone payment) within forty five (45) days; (iii) all licenses to use TiVo trademarks and to distribute TiVo Technology with respect to the TE Solution and any DIRECTV TE Receiver will terminate as of the date of termination notice from TiVo under this Section 9.4 (provided that DIRECTV may continue to support, maintain and otherwise service existing Legacy Combination Receivers solely to the extent provided in Section 9.5 below); and (iv) any Development Credits under 3.14 not applied to outstanding invoices under subsection (ii) above will be forfeited and Section 3.14 will terminate.


So this is basically saying that Tivo can end the agreement for a "non-Tivo" delay. So let's say LG is supposed to make the hardware for this but doesn't get it out in time. Tivo can then terminate the agreement.

The only question though would be if DirecTV were to walk and tell Tivo to stuff it, is that only for the new box or would it be for the whole agreement (which includes support for current legacy boxes and their no sue clause). So for DirecTV they probably would just let the receiver "die on the vine" so to speak due to Tivo delays then actually terminate the whole agreement. Unless they were paying millions to Tivo despite continued delays. I'd have to think at some point it would come to a head.

But anyway, in the end it's all speculation on our part. Of course that's fun for us.


----------



## ejjames

Am I correct in assuming a new Tivo will not be DIRECTV2PC compatible?


----------



## say-what

ejjames said:


> Am I correct in assuming a new Tivo will not be DIRECTV2PC compatible?


Since the new DirecTIVO doesn't exist yet, no one knows what feature set it will have.


----------



## Sixto

DirecTV may be ok with the delay. They now have the non-sue clause for many years to come.


----------



## la24philly

long live bon scott this past feb was his 30th anniversary of his death,

a whole lotta rosie


----------



## Syzygy

bonscott87 said:


> ... The only question though would be if DirecTV were to walk and tell Tivo to stuff it, is that only for the new box or would it be for the whole agreement (which includes support for current legacy boxes and their no sue clause). So for DirecTV they probably would just let the receiver "die on the vine" so to speak due to Tivo delays then actually terminate the whole agreement. *Unless they were paying millions to Tivo despite continued delays.* I'd have to think at some point it would come to a head.
> 
> But anyway, in the end it's all speculation on our part. Of course that's fun for us.


But they've _already_ paid millions to Tivo (and I guess they may still be paying millions) for them to develop the TE code for the MPEG-4 TiVo.


----------



## harsh

Deezul said:


> I'm seriously considering dumping my last HR10 for a free HR2X swap.


Don't wait too long. You're not going to get an award for holding out unless TiVo manages to pull the new design out sooner than many expect.

Make sure you understand whether or not a commitment extension will be part of any deal you strike.


----------



## SledgeHammer

As much as I loved Tivo back in the day with my SAT-T60 and then my HR10-250, I think Tivo is pretty much irrelevant these days. Sorry, but its true . Whats Tivo going to offer that your cable DVR or DTV DVR or Dish DVR doesn't? Sure there will be some gadget guys / die-hards who will jump on the new Tivo no matter how much it costs, but with the economy, I think most people think what they have is "good enough". My parents have a cable DVR and its pretty bad. Tiny HD, bad UI, etc. But its good enough for them they say. I dunno, but the fact that Tivo blew chunks on thier earnings speaks volumes. I don't want to be a Tivo hater, but a company who is hemoraging money isn't going to be saved by a QWERTY remote . Either way, we ain't getting the QWERTY remote anyways.

I'd be surprised if DTV didn't pull the plug on the Tivo. They pulled the plug on the PC interface they "promised" a few years ago too.

Some of you want the "options", but hey, as big as this board is, its about .0001% of DTVs customer base, so I doubt they pay much attention .


----------



## Doug Brott

While DIRECTV has the Replay Patents, I'm sure they are quite happy with the current non-litigation agreement which extends through that ever important 2018 date. I don't see DIRECTV doing anything other than what was negotiated in the contracts. The $36-million for replay has given DIRECTV leverage for a continued relationship that is very unlikely to be altered for the next 8+ years.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> While DIRECTV has the Replay Patents, I'm sure they are quite happy with the current non-litigation agreement which extends through that ever important 2018 date. I don't see DIRECTV doing anything other than what was negotiated in the contracts. The $36-million for replay has given DIRECTV leverage for a continued relationship that is very unlikely to be altered for the next 8+ years.


It light of the recent Tivo vs Dish lawsuit events....DirecTV's arrangement has obviously proven to be a smart move back when it was consummated (to avoid similar situations.

Now they can simply focus their attention on getting the new Tivobox done when its all ready.


----------



## ATARI

RobertE said:


> When the initial announcement was made the HR21/22 was top of the line. Since then we have seen the HR23 and before too much longer the HR24. Tivo needs to get off their backsides and put something out, or be rendered irrelevant.


All the HRs need at this point is an HD GUI and TiVo will be dead to me.


----------



## Alan Gordon

slimoli said:


> I don't know about you guys but I'm pretty happy with the HRs now, after MRV got stable. I love TiVo and had both the 250 and the S3 when I had cable but Directv is doig a really good job developing the Hrs. I prefer the way D* implemented the MVR, for example.


While I'm a LONG WAY from happy as far as the HRs are concerned, I prefer the way DirecTV is doing MRV as well.

For those of you going "WHOA! Who hijacked Alan's account?", I still would like the option of moving content from one DVR to another DVR on the same account in case one was replacing a DVR or something... BUT for general MRV use, yeah, I too prefer DirecTV's implementation.



Sixto said:


> DirecTV may be ok with the delay. They now have the non-sue clause for many years to come.


Agreed! I doubt DirecTV could care less about when the new DirecTiVo comes out.

As for me, I'm disappointed. My HR23-700 can be a PITA on some days and I was really hoping to replace it with a DirecTiVo. I was also wanting to upgrade my Grandmother to HD, but I'm not sure she'll care too much for the HR2x. 

~Alan


----------



## gully_foyle

ejjames said:


> Am I correct in assuming a new Tivo will not be DIRECTV2PC compatible?


I hope not. D2PC is a great annoyance on my network since it advertises shares that are largely unavailable.


----------



## Tom_S

Sixto said:


> He actually said "latter half of the year", then "latter part of the year". 27:34 minutes into the call. 2010.
> 
> While it seems typical for project to be delayed, it's quite interesting to think about all of the comments by Tom Rogers.
> 
> Personally, I thing I've listened to every TiVo analyst call and each call has included different words.
> 
> Went from "2009", to "late 2009", to "2010", to now "latter part of 2010". All with no explanation. At least four calls, all different dates, and it slips every call.


This is fairly amazing that they don't seem to have any clue how long it takes to produce a DVR, especially since they are only a DVR company! They are currently 18 months off and growing, WTF is that!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> This is fairly amazing that they don't seem to have any clue how long it takes to produce a DVR, especially since they are only a DVR company! They are currently 18 months off and growing, WTF is that!


In reality....they have evolved to becoming mostly a DVR software company that partners with hardware manufacturers and third parties to deliver a Tivo-only branded product.

That renders the possibility of missing target delivery dates a grander situation, with development and testing being less predictable in that environment.


----------



## Tom_S

hdtvfan0001 said:


> the possibility of missing target delivery dates a grander situation


Dude, we're talking years. They need to get a grip on their development.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom_S said:


> Dude, we're talking years. They need to get a grip on their development.


The current Tivo software has been in development about 18 months or so to date, based on the public information on payments made from DirecTV to Tivo in financial reports.

Since they are designing something from the ground up on DirecTV-specified hardware...that is not at all surprising.


----------



## houskamp

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The current Tivo software has been in development about 18 months or so to date, based on the public information on payments made from DirecTV to Tivo in financial reports.
> 
> Since they are designing something from the ground up on DirecTV-specified hardware...that is not at all surprising.


 Highly doubt it would be a "ground up" design.. they already are used to the broadcom chips and should know how to write most of the software.. just the interface to the sat tuners would be new..


----------



## hdtvfan0001

houskamp said:


> Highly doubt it would be a "ground up" design.. they already are used to the broadcom chips and should know how to write most of the software.. just the interface to the sat tuners would be new..


Then that would make one wonder why they've spent millions and taken this long...


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then that would make one wonder why they've spent millions and taken this long...


Based on public statements, we know DirecTV has paid TiVo millions since the new agreement was struck back in the fall of 2008, but no one outside of the T*/D* negotiations may know what the $$$ are actually for. E.g., it's possible the "development" payments made by DirecTV are in reality licensing fees that TiVo's accountants choose to describe as something else.

IIRC, the prior TiVo/DirecTV agreement had DirecTV paying TiVo for "maintenance and support" through 2010, and I'm sure this new agreement supercedes that.


----------



## gregjones

RobertE said:


> When the initial announcement was made the HR21/22 was top of the line. Since then we have seen the HR23 and before too much longer the HR24. Tivo needs to get off their backsides and put something out, or be rendered irrelevant.


Hasn't this been the only major issue with TiVO, though? Their SD DirecTiVo ended up considerably behind their standard TiVos. Their time-to-market on these devices is killing them. You cannot release today's functionality two years later and expect to have a huge impact.

Yes, some people will buy it because of a logo or a few specific features but there is a much worse problem out there for TiVo. When they entered the market, the expectations were low. They set the standard and did a fine job of it. But since the last time they released a DirecTV product, consumers have much higher expectations. The consumer is much more sophisticated now than then. Giving them the functionality of two years ago today will not fly. For TiVo, it will kill the one thing they really need right now: repeat customers.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> Based on public statements, we know DirecTV has paid TiVo millions since the new agreement was struck back in the fall of 2008, but no one outside of the T*/D* negotiations may know what the $$$ are actually for. E.g., it's possible the "development" payments made by DirecTV are in reality licensing fees that TiVo's accountants choose to describe as something else.
> 
> IIRC, the prior TiVo/DirecTV agreement had DirecTV paying TiVo for "maintenance and support" through 2010, and I'm sure this new agreement supercedes that.


Good point - without the actual "project plan" in hand...no one really knows what the timelines are, or what the expectations have really been between the 2 partners on this....for all we know....things are totally on target or perhaps totally off target.


----------



## Sixto

Clearer view of the processor chart from a few days ago:http://hd.engadget.com/2010/03/09/the-processor-in-the-tivo-premier-is-over-twice-as-fast-as-the-s/​









Previous post: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2383786


----------



## Syzygy

SledgeHammer said:


> As much as I loved Tivo back in the day with my SAT-T60 and then my HR10-250, I think Tivo is pretty much irrelevant these days. Sorry, but it's true . What's Tivo going to offer that your cable DVR or DTV DVR or Dish DVR doesn't?


Funny you should ask.

My HR10 never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to. OTOH, my HR21 frequently fails to honor a Series Link. Occasionally my HR21 references a SL to reinstate a scheduled recording even after I've cancelled it in order to record a lower-priority show. It has even recorded a spot-beamed local SD show instead of the requested spot-beamed local HD version, although SD channels are hidden. For six months now, Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" have been recording reruns too. Finally, my HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.

I never have to follow up behind my HR10 to make sure our recording requests will be honored. With the HR21, however, the constant threat of robotic insolence demands eternal vigilance, in the To Do List and in the Guide.

My HR10 responds with dependable alacrity to each push of a remote button. Trick play is always quick-acting and pleasant to use. There are only two places I can think of where the HR10 is slow: processing re-ordered Season Passes and navigating the grid-style guide.

When I need to search into next week, or get search results that aren't polluted by VOD/PPV/CIDG, I have to use my HR10.

A shortened list of other reasons to prefer TiVo:
• No arbitrary limit to the number of Season Passes.
• No Press-and-hold functions that sometimes engage by accident.
• Search-result lists that don't refresh themselves for no reason.
• True "Dual Live Buffers" rather than "DoublePlay".
• Instant Replay that goes back 8 seconds, does it immediately, and doesn't play the new sound before displaying the new picture.
• A Pause button that acts immediately.
• A dedicated Slow Motion key.
• A real Clear button rather than a combination Exit-or-Clear button.
• A progress bar that shows how long a recording is when it's truncated (say, by rain fade).
• A more polite progress bar.
• Better-behaved autocorrection.
• Closed Captioning that stays on during FF1.
• Ability to change the Guide's sort order with one button press.
• Easier access to the To Do List, the series manager, and manual recording.
• Menus and lists that remember where you were.
• A button (Skip) that goes directly to the top/bottom of a list.
• Buttons (Channel up/down) that go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> Clearer view of the processor chart from a few days ago:http://hd.engadget.com/2010/03/09/the-processor-in-the-tivo-premier-is-over-twice-as-fast-as-the-s/​
> Previous post: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2383786


On a related note, I found this post by *bkdtv* over at TCF very informative and relevant to the differences between the HR21/22/23 and the HR20.

Figures 2 and 3 show the difference in h/w architecture and system performance between the Tivo HD and Tivo Series 3. I'm pretty sure these two models share the same basic chipset and MOBO architecture as the HR21 and HR20 respectively.


----------



## JBernardK

Syzygy said:


> Funny you should ask.
> 
> My HR10 never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to. OTOH, my HR21 frequently fails to honor a Series Link. Occasionally my HR21 references a SL to reinstate a scheduled recording even after I've cancelled it in order to record a lower-priority show. It has even recorded a spot-beamed local SD show instead of the requested spot-beamed local HD version, although SD channels are hidden. For six months now, Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" have been recording reruns too. Finally, my HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.
> 
> I never have to follow up behind my HR10 to make sure our recording requests will be honored. With the HR21, however, the constant threat of robotic insolence demands eternal vigilance, in the To Do List and in the Guide.
> 
> My HR10 responds with dependable alacrity to each push of a remote button. Trick play is always quick-acting and pleasant to use. There are only two places I can think of where the HR10 is slow: processing re-ordered Season Passes and navigating the grid-style guide.
> 
> When I need to search into next week, or get search results that aren't polluted by VOD/PPV/CIDG, I have to use my HR10.
> 
> A shortened list of other reasons to prefer TiVo:
> • No arbitrary limit to the number of Season Passes.
> • No Press-and-hold functions that sometimes engage by accident.
> • Search-result lists that don't refresh themselves for no reason.
> • True "Dual Live Buffers" rather than "DoublePlay".
> • Instant Replay that goes back 8 seconds, does it immediately, and doesn't play the new sound before displaying the new picture.
> • A Pause button that acts immediately.
> • A dedicated Slow Motion key.
> • A real Clear button rather than a combination Exit-or-Clear button.
> • A progress bar that shows how long a recording is when it's truncated (say, by rain fade).
> • A more polite progress bar.
> • Better-behaved autocorrection.
> • Closed Captioning that stays on during FF1.
> • Ability to change the Guide's sort order with one button press.
> • Easier access to the To Do List, the series manager, and manual recording.
> • Menus and lists that remember where you were.
> • A button (Skip) that goes directly to the top/bottom of a list.
> • Buttons (Channel up/down) that go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list.


Excellent observation. I'm sure TiVo could have had a box that had all the failings of the HR series a year or more ago. You can do it quick or you can do it right!


----------



## Alan Gordon

houskamp said:


> Highly doubt it would be a "ground up" design.. they already are used to the broadcom chips and should know how to write most of the software.. just the interface to the sat tuners would be new..





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then that would make one wonder why they've spent millions and taken this long...


I still believe it has a lot to do with getting some of DirecTV's features working right... like Interactive features... as well as MRV.



gregjones said:


> Their SD DirecTiVo ended up considerably behind their standard TiVos.


I've always heard that DirecTV didn't want some of the features their stand-alones had, and that's why the DirecTiVo's were far behind.

~Alan


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Well, DIRECTV was not interested in making the receivers hackable, so that limited some of the features. As far as other features like Home Media Option that were legitimately available on SA TiVos but not DirecTivos... well who knows. Maybe they just didn't see the point in dealing with the support.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Well, DIRECTV was not interested in making the receivers hackable, so that limited some of the features. As far as other features like Home Media Option that were legitimately available on SA TiVos but not DirecTivos... well who knows. Maybe they just didn't see the point in dealing with the support.


The 6.x firmware update did manage to at least FINALLY bring some features like "Recently Deleted" and others, BUT there are multiple features (like extended cast information, episode numbers, etc.) which simply don't make a lot of sense leaving out.

As far as Home Media goes, it may be that DirecTV didn't want to have to deal with the studios or networks. TiVo will most likely have to switch to streaming sometime in the future as well... because more and more people are having difficulty with the HMO option on their stand-alone TiVo units. A shame really as I have had MULTIPLE times over the years where I could have used an HMO function with DirecTV. 

However, one area which I'm sure DirecTV was the reason behind the removal of a feature is the Space Usage meter on the Stand-Alone TiVos.

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Syzygy said:


> Funny you should ask.
> 
> My HR10 never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to. OTOH, my HR21 frequently fails to honor a Series Link. Occasionally my HR21 references a SL to reinstate a scheduled recording even after I've cancelled it in order to record a lower-priority show. It has even recorded a spot-beamed local SD show instead of the requested spot-beamed local HD version, although SD channels are hidden. For six months now, Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" have been recording reruns too. Finally, my HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.
> 
> I never have to follow up behind my HR10 to make sure our recording requests will be honored. With the HR21, however, the constant threat of robotic insolence demands eternal vigilance, in the To Do List and in the Guide.


Honestly, sounds like you just need a new box. I would have replaced it years ago if I had those recording issues. Most do not have these issues that you are having thus stands to reason you have a bad box. I had an HR20 and HR21 for over 3 years and never once did it miss a recording.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> <snip>
> My HR10 never "forgets" to record whatever I ask it to. OTOH, *my HR21 frequently fails to honor a Series Link.* Occasionally my HR21 references a SL to reinstate a scheduled recording even after I've cancelled it in order to record a lower-priority show. It has even recorded a spot-beamed local SD show instead of the requested spot-beamed local HD version, although SD channels are hidden. For six months now, Keyword Autorecord SLs that specify "First Run Only" have been recording reruns too. Finally, my HR21 recently refused, without explanation, to honor an explicit request to record a single show. The show appeared in my To Do List, to be recorded a few hours in the future, but the next morining there was no trace of the show whatsoever in any list -- and no repeat showings existed.
> <snip>


There certainly sounds like there's something wrong with your receiver. My HR's have only missed a recording if there was priority conflict, and it was usually my fault. Routinely missing SLs is very unusual and you should really investigate that. Wow, I would never put up with that. I don't blame you for being frustrated.

Mike


----------



## Syzygy

Syzygy said:


> ... my HR21 frequently fails to honor a Series Link. Occasionally my HR21 references a SL to reinstate a scheduled recording even after I've cancelled it in order to record a lower-priority show. It has even recorded a spot-beamed local SD show instead of the requested spot-beamed local HD version, although SD channels are hidden...





bonscott87 said:


> Honestly, sounds like you just need a new box. I would have replaced it years ago if I had those recording issues. Most do not have these issues that you are having thus stands to reason you have a bad box. I had an HR20 and HR21 for over 3 years and never once did it miss a recording.





MicroBeta said:


> There certainly sounds like there's something wrong with your receiver. My HR's have only missed a recording if there was priority conflict, and it was usually my fault. Routinely missing SLs is very unusual and you should really investigate that. Wow, I would never put up with that. I don't blame you for being frustrated.


Do either of you have experience with Keyword Autorecord SLs? I should've made it clear that my missed recordings, as well as the other two recording problems in the above quote fragment, have occurred recently *only* with Keyword Autorecord SLs. I believe that Autorecording based on searches is chock full of bugs, and I don't even think the problems will ever be addressed. (Another such bug, which I failed to list, is that an *AALL <episode name>* can work in search mode but fail to autorecord.)

I think that regular SLs work much better. (Except that they often omit from the To Do List some shows that repeat throughout the week, but record them anyway. -- "So you thought I dropped the ball? Surprise!")

Believe me, I'd much rather use regular SLs than Keyword Autorecord SLs, but the 50-SL limit prevents that.

If you guys could assure me that Keyword Autorecord SLs don't miss recordings, I'd consider trying to swap out my HR21. But I think all the problems with Autorecord are in the software.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Syzygy said:


> Do either of you have experience with Keyword Autorecord SLs? I should've made it clear that my missed recordings, as well as the other two recording problems in the above quote fragment, have occurred recently *only* with Keyword Autorecord SLs. I believe that Autorecording based on searches is chock full of bugs, and I don't even think the problems will ever be addressed. (Another such bug, which I failed to list, is that an *AALL <episode name>* can work in search mode but fail to autorecord.)
> 
> I think that regular SLs work much better. (Except that they often omit from the To Do List some shows that repeat throughout the week, but record them anyway. -- "So you thought I dropped the ball? Surprise!")
> 
> Believe me, I'd much rather use regular SLs than Keyword Autorecord SLs, but the 50-SL limit prevents that.
> 
> If you guys could assure me that Keyword Autorecord SLs don't miss recordings, I'd consider trying to swap out my HR21. But I think all the problems with Autorecord are in the software.


I don't have much experience with Keyword Autorecord SLs. I have two dvr's in the living room so I don't have any problems with the number of SLs.

How does TiVo handle Keyword Autorecords? I never used my DirecTiVo's that way. I've always had season passes.

Mike


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy said:


> If you guys could assure me that Keyword Autorecord SLs don't miss recordings, I'd consider trying to swap out my HR21. But I think all the problems with Autorecord are in the software.


All I can say is that in my years of using Autorecords, I have not had a missed recording with them since about May of 2007. I only have four but they work perfectly every time. Autorecords are far more sensitive to bad guide data from the content creators and perhaps that is why mine have been ok and yours haven't been as satisfying.


----------



## DogLover

Syzygy said:


> Do either of you have experience with Keyword Autorecord SLs? I should've made it clear that my missed recordings, as well as the other two recording problems in the above quote fragment, have occurred recently *only* with Keyword Autorecord SLs. I believe that Autorecording based on searches is chock full of bugs, and I don't even think the problems will ever be addressed. (Another such bug, which I failed to list, is that an *AALL <episode name>* can work in search mode but fail to autorecord.)
> 
> I think that regular SLs work much better. (Except that they often omit from the To Do List some shows that repeat throughout the week, but record them anyway. -- "So you thought I dropped the ball? Surprise!")
> 
> Believe me, I'd much rather use regular SLs than Keyword Autorecord SLs, but the 50-SL limit prevents that.
> 
> If you guys could assure me that Keyword Autorecord SLs don't miss recordings, I'd consider trying to swap out my HR21. But I think all the problems with Autorecord are in the software.


I don't use them extensively, but I've never missed any. However, there have been releases where they don't show up in the ToDo list until they actually start recording. (It does seem to be a bug that returns periodically.)

Obviously, you would have to do some testing to see if you trusted it enough to use them extensively.


----------



## bonscott87

Same here, I didn't have too many autorecords but the ones I had worked great. They were for sports only and I did use the CCHAN qualifier on them to keep them on the specific channels I wanted so I don't know if that made it better or not then a more "general" search which I assume is what Syzygy might be doing. 

Also never ran into the 50 series limit, we just don't watch that much TV I guess. Most we ever had, even on our old DirecTivos was about 40 and that kept us watching TV solid most nights. But I certainly understand those that need more. Obviously (at least to me) with 9-10 million customers with HR2x's the 50 limit isn't a common complaint. If it was I would suspect they would have done something about it a couple years ago.


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Do either of you have experience with Keyword Autorecord SLs? I should've made it clear that my missed recordings, as well as the other two recording problems in the above quote fragment, have occurred recently *only* with Keyword Autorecord SLs. I believe that Autorecording based on searches is chock full of bugs, and I don't even think the problems will ever be addressed. (Another such bug, which I failed to list, is that an *AALL <episode name>* can work in search mode but fail to autorecord.)
> 
> I think that regular SLs work much better. (Except that they often omit from the To Do List some shows that repeat throughout the week, but record them anyway. -- "So you thought I dropped the ball? Surprise!")
> 
> Believe me, I'd much rather use regular SLs than Keyword Autorecord SLs, but the 50-SL limit prevents that.
> 
> If you guys could assure me that Keyword Autorecord SLs don't miss recordings, I'd consider trying to swap out my HR21. But I think all the problems with Autorecord are in the software.


I use ARSL constantly, and have never had these issues, but mostly for sports.... I did set up one of your ARSLs that you said was causing issues on one of my units and I'll let you know what its doing this weekend, and beyond as time goes by and it has more of a chance to go through more and more guide data....


----------



## Shades228

The new TiVo is using ARSL?


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## ify.qual

Yep, do the internet search read the articles, the new DirecTV Tivos will be based on the what they call "TIVO Classic" not anything in the new SERIES 4's Premiere or Pemiere XL. I did some digging and found out this was DirecTV's decision, not Tivo's.

Once again DirecTV knows having a full TIVO would sour people to their own DVR.

The Consumer and choice looses again.


----------



## Doug Brott

ify.qual said:


> Yep, do the internet search read the articles, the new DirecTV Tivos will be based on the what they call "Classic" not anything in the new Premiere or Pemiere . I did some digging and found out this was DirecTV's decision, not Tivo's.
> 
> Once again DirecTV knows having a full TIVO would sour people to their own DVR.
> 
> The Consumer and choice looses again.


Welcome to last week .. Oh, and this was a TiVo decision, has nothing to do with DIRECTV.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> Welcome to last week .. Oh, and this was a TiVo decision, has nothing to do with DIRECTV.


2 issues, though.

Premiere vs. "classic tivo" = likely Tivo's decision

Full (i.e. SA Tivo) functionality vs. watered-down = likely D* decision, if not a combo.


----------



## ify.qual

Doug Brott said:


> Welcome to last week .. Oh, and this was a TiVo decision, has nothing to do with DIRECTV.


Nope


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> 2 issues, though.
> 
> Premiere vs. "classic tivo" = likely Tivo's decision
> 
> Full (i.e. SA Tivo) functionality vs. watered-down = likely D* decision, if not a combo.


I'm sure we can argue till the cows come home about what "full" means. Do I think the SA & DIRECTV versions are going to have exactly the same features? No, but the Premiere and the S2 Standalone TiVo don't have the same features either .. Is that DIRECTV's fault?

I'm sure that DIRECTV doesn't want the TiVo's to be hackable like previous iterations of TiVo. That alone will mean that the DIRECTV version won't have "full functionality" in some folks minds. Will DIRECTV's version be "watered-down?" :shrug: .. All I know is that there better be enough features tossed in to make it worthwhile. Contrary to what others are saying, I can see Netflix as being a potential option .. IF .. there is an additional TiVo fee to DIRECTV for these receivers, then it would stand to reason that some of the flashy features might be available.

No, ToGo content .. That could be a problem. DIRECTV has shown itself to be a very conservative company with respect to digital rights. Regardless of whether or not this is the right decision, it's one that DIRECTV has been very consistent with. As long as digital rights can be maintained, I'm sure anything is possible. But a free-for-all mentality regarding content .. That will not be allowed.

I'm actually pretty confident that when (if) the new DIRECTiVo comes to fruition .. that it will have some nice whizbang features. If it doesn't .. then what was the whole point (from TiVo's perspective).


----------



## Doug Brott

ify.qual said:


> Nope


OK .. Since you said it, it must be true 

Care to elaborate?


----------



## Steve

Notes 11 and 12 in this TCF post explain why the TiVo Premiere platform needs the add'l horsepower of the BCM7413 to run the Flash-based features and generate the HD GUI. For this reason, the TiVO Series 3 and HD boxes won't be able to run the new UI, and probably the same reason the HR series won't be able to run it either.

According to TCF's *bkdtv*, TiVo engineers tried to get the "Premiere" GUI running on the generation 3 TiVo boxes, but were unable to.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure we can argue till the cows come home about what "full" means. Do I think the SA & DIRECTV versions are going to have exactly the same features? No, but the Premiere and the S2 Standalone TiVo don't have the same features either .. Is that DIRECTV's fault?


1) why argue? If it's not an SA Tivo with D* tuners, essentially, many will consider it "watered down" Honestly, doesn't matter to me at all, not sure why you think I'm arguing. I'm on the record as saying an HR10 with MPEG4 tuners would make me consider purchasing it. It gets around enough of the HR2x's design flaws (50 series limit, OTA database madness) to make it an interesting question for me.

2) For the record, I think it's Earl's fault. :hurah: What a silly rhetorical question.



Doug Brott said:


> I'm sure that DIRECTV doesn't want the TiVo's to be hackable like previous iterations of TiVo. That alone will mean that the DIRECTV version won't have "full functionality" in some folks minds. Will DIRECTV's version be "watered-down?" :shrug: .. All I know is that there better be enough features tossed in to make it worthwhile. Contrary to what others are saying, I can see Netflix as being a potential option .. IF .. there is an additional TiVo fee to DIRECTV for these receivers, then it would stand to reason that some of the flashy features might be available.
> 
> No, ToGo content .. That could be a problem. DIRECTV has shown itself to be a very conservative company with respect to digital rights. Regardless of whether or not this is the right decision, it's one that DIRECTV has been very consistent with. As long as digital rights can be maintained, I'm sure anything is possible. But a free-for-all mentality regarding content .. That will not be allowed.
> 
> I'm actually pretty confident that when (if) the new DIRECTiVo comes to fruition .. that it will have some nice whizbang features. If it doesn't .. then what was the whole point (from TiVo's perspective).


I still don't buy any "rights management" BS. If Tivo has managed to exist this long without having their pants sued off, anyone else should be able to do the same. Obviously, DMCA isn't based in any kind of sensical reality, so YMMV :grin:


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hancox said:


> 2) For the record, I think it's Earl's fault. :hurah: What a silly rhetorical question.


I hope you know another Earl...


----------



## Jeremy W

hancox said:


> I still don't buy any "rights management" BS. If Tivo has managed to exist this long without having their pants sued off, anyone else should be able to do the same.


Tivo doesn't have to worry about being a TV provider. Nothing they're doing is illegal, but that doesn't mean the content providers like it. DirecTV has to answer to the content providers, which creates a whole different playing field.


----------



## hancox

Earl Bonovich said:


> I hope you know another Earl...


Sorry - the ridiculousness of the question required a similarly ridiculous answer. Sorry if the "silly" and :hurah: wasn't clear enough 

Fine - it's Chase Carey's fault. Better?


----------



## bonscott87

Jeremy W said:


> Tivo doesn't have to worry about being a TV provider. Nothing they're doing is illegal, but that doesn't mean the content providers like it. DirecTV has to answer to the content providers, which creates a whole different playing field.


Plus the fact that Tivo is such a small player in the market it's not worth going after them at this point. But you have the main point...DirecTV, Dish and so forth have to get their content from the very people they would make mad by allowing digital copies of the content. Thus the MPAA have companies like DirecTV "by the balls" so to speak and DirecTV has taken the road of not rattling the chains on this issue.


----------



## Steve

hancox said:


> [...] If Tivo has managed to exist this long without having their pants sued off, anyone else should be able to do the same. Obviously, DMCA isn't based in any kind of sensical reality, so YMMV :grin:


Not sure I get the point here. TiVo does respect copy protection flags, doesn't it?


----------



## hancox

Steve said:


> Not sure I get the point here. TiVo does respect copy protection flags, doesn't it?


Yes, but the same legal precedent that allows for Tivo to do all of those snazzy things *should* apply to D* (and others) as well. Many here seem too quick to bring up "DRM" as a reason for some things D* lacks, and I don't buy it.


----------



## Jeremy W

hancox said:


> Yes, but the same legal precedent that allows for Tivo to do all of those snazzy things *should* apply to D* (and others) as well. Many here seem too quick to bring up "DRM" as a reason for some things D* lacks, and I don't buy it.


*Legally*, DirecTV could do everything Tivo does and probably more. But this has nothing to do with the law, and everything to do with their relationships with content providers.


----------



## Steve

hancox said:


> Yes, but the same legal precedent that allows for Tivo to do all of those snazzy things *should* apply to D* (and others) as well. Many here seem too quick to bring up "DRM" as a reason for some things D* lacks, and I don't buy it.


But the reverse is true as well. "DRM" is a reason for some things TiVo lacks, like the ability to MRV certain showings that are not a problem on the HR2x platform.


----------



## gregjones

Jeremy W said:


> *Legally*, DirecTV could do everything Tivo does and probably more. But this has nothing to do with the law, and everything to do with their relationships with content providers.


Ding Ding Ding. Correct.

Tivo does not have to negotiate with the companies that have their content redistributed because of the ToGo functionality. They have nothing to lose. DirecTV has everything to lose.


----------



## ATARI

Doug Brott said:


> Welcome to last week .. Oh, and this was a TiVo decision, has nothing to do with DIRECTV.


More likely a mutual decision.


----------



## ATARI

gregjones said:


> Ding Ding Ding. Correct.
> 
> Tivo does not have to negotiate with the companies that have their content redistributed because of the ToGo functionality. They have nothing to lose. DirecTV has everything to lose.


BINGO!


----------



## hancox

gregjones said:


> Ding Ding Ding. Correct.
> 
> Tivo does not have to negotiate with the companies that have their content redistributed because of the ToGo functionality. They have nothing to lose. DirecTV has everything to lose.


So what? Neither did Napster. Protected them, eh?

I know, it's apples and oranges, but think about it: One of the providers could easily cite DMCA and eliminate some pieces of Tivo functionality almost instantaneously. It hasn't happened.


----------



## Jeremy W

hancox said:


> So what? Neither did Napster. Protected them, eh?


Apples and oranges. Like I said, Tivo isn't doing anything that's illegal. Napster was.


hancox said:


> One of the providers could easily cite DMCA and eliminate some pieces of Tivo functionality almost instantaneously. It hasn't happened.


It hasn't happened because Tivo isn't violating any portion of the DMCA.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Wouldn't TiVo2GO be akin to a VCR or recordable DVD? You can record it and keep it forever. That's why I don't like the restrictions with DirecTV2PC. 

It seems to me that if I recorded something it should be mine, but it isn't. :scratchin

How many people did you know in the '80s-'90s that had extensive VCR libraries of movies they recorded from various channels? I know I knew a few.

Mike


----------



## Earl Bonovich

hancox said:


> Sorry - the ridiculousness of the question required a similarly ridiculous answer. Sorry if the "silly" and :hurah: wasn't clear enough
> 
> Fine - it's Chase Carey's fault. Better?


Oh I took it all in fun... hence the wording of the reply...


----------



## Jeremy W

MicroBeta said:


> Wouldn't TiVo2GO be akin to a VCR or recordable DVD?


Yes, it's perfectly within your fair use rights.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Same here, I didn't have too many autorecords but the ones I had worked great. They were for sports only and I did use the CCHAN qualifier on them to keep them on the specific channels I wanted so I don't know if that made it better or not then a more "general" search which I assume is what Syzygy might be doing.
> 
> Also never ran into the 50 series limit, we just don't watch that much TV I guess. Most we ever had, even on our old DirecTivos was about 40 and that kept us watching TV solid most nights. But I certainly understand those that need more. Obviously (at least to me) with 9-10 million customers with HR2x's the 50 limit isn't a common complaint. If it was I would suspect they would have done something about it a couple years ago.


I never set any of my Wishlists on my DirecTiVo's to record. I'd rather just look at them and set up records whenever I choose to... one of the reasons why AUTORECORD is worthless to me.

However, another serious issue with Autorecords is that each one takes up space on your Series Links.

For instance, a few minutes ago, I was looking at my "Firefly" Blu-ray set... so I decided, in order to make sure DirecTV hadn't changed this since the last time I tried it, to set up up Autorecords for Nathan Fillion and Summer Glau... two Wishlists currently on my TiVo Series 3. To start with, I tried a Smart Search for Summer Glau... which yielded NO RESULTS. I then tried "Firefly"... which yielded results in the form of a KEYWORD for "Serenity", and I was then able to set up an Autorecord for SG. I then went up to to Nathan Fillion in the Cast & Crew section of "Serenity" and tried to set it up when I was informed that I didn't have room to add that Autorecord.

I had 49 Series Links set prior to starting this. Summer Glau made it 50... leaving no room for a Nathan Fillion Autorecord.

~Alan


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> 1) why argue? If it's not an SA Tivo with D* tuners, essentially, many will consider it "watered down" Honestly, doesn't matter to me at all, not sure why you think I'm arguing. I'm on the record as saying an HR10 with MPEG4 tuners would make me consider purchasing it. It gets around enough of the HR2x's design flaws (50 series limit, OTA database madness) to make it an interesting question for me.


My point was that "we" (a.k.a DBSTalk members) would have a difficult time agreeing on what "Full functionality" meant. That's all. I wasn't even remotely suggesting that you personally were arguing.



> I still don't buy any "rights management" BS. If Tivo has managed to exist this long without having their pants sued off, anyone else should be able to do the same. Obviously, DMCA isn't based in any kind of sensical reality, so YMMV :grin:


DIRECTV has proven itself to be conservative with respect to Digital Rights .. Does that make it "right?" I don't know. I can certainly see room for more portability. I'm not even defending their stance .. just stating what it is.

Heck, if DIRECTV came out with a portable viewing capability I'd hop right on board with that. They've done this with their NFL Sunday Ticket already so it's not entirely out of the question.


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> I had 49 Series Links set prior to starting this. Summer Glau made it 50... leaving no room for a Nathan Fillion Autorecord.


How would you feel if the 50 limit weren't there?


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> ... I then went up to to Nathan Fillion in the Cast & Crew section of "Serenity" and tried to set up [a second Autorecord] when *I was informed that I didn't have room* to add that Autorecord.
> 
> I had 49 Series Links set prior to starting this. Summer Glau made it 50... leaving no room for a Nathan Fillion Autorecord.


When you were informed that you didn't have room for a 51st SL, did you have to abandon your search in order to delete an old SL, and then did you have to recreate the search? Or did the BACK button get you back into the search sequence? (Aside to D* fanboys: Yep, I do realize that my HR10 doesn't have the very useful BACK button. Sometimes I wish it did. Maybe the next DirecTiVo will.)

Back in 2008 I had 45 to 50 SLs and heard that my HR21 would be more responsive if I had 30 to 40. So I gradually reduced my SL count to around 35 (using combo keyword Autorecords), and my HR21 did indeed seem a little snappier. Or maybe it was just my imagination. 

What about your experience? Could you maybe cancel some SLs which show (0) upcoming, as a trial?


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I realize there's nothing to say about TiVo, but let's keep it to topic, at least marginally


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> How would you feel if the 50 limit weren't there?


I'm not quite sure I understand the question.

The 50 Series Link limit is certainly one of my biggest complaints about the HR2x DVRs... so obviously the removal of the limit would make me happier.

For those keeping track, my other biggest gripes are:


*No comparable feature to Wishlists.* Sure, there is Autorecord, but I want the ability to simply save a search instead of setting it to record.
*Inferior Cast & Crew information.* The HR2x DVRs have now surpassed the DirecTiVo's in regard to Cast & Crew information I'm pleased to say, but they still trail considerably behind stand-alone TiVo's. Doing a search on the TiVo can on occasion bring dozens of results more than the DirecTV DVRs do.
*SPEED!* Yes, it appears that the HR24 may have fixed this issue, but that doesn't do me a lot of good. I actually PAID (unintentionally) for the HR23-700 last year, so I'm not going to go out and spend $200 for an HR24 after I spent $200 on an HR23-700 which is less than a year old. I'll also lump the DirecTV remote into this one as well. It sucks!
*PiL & PiM.* Seriously people... whose bright idea was it to put a PiL and a PiM on a DVR? It's a great feature on an STB, but NOT on a DVR. Some people like it, so at least offer an OPTION to turn it off for those who don't watch much live TV.
*Lack of an ability to omit channels.* A few weeks ago, I did a search for Kristen Bell. My search brought up 500 results due to "Couples Retreat" being on PPV... the result I was looking for was one of the choices on the bottom of the results... which meant I was there for probably ten minutes or more trying to find ONE PROGRAM. Earlier, I did a keyword search for a program and I got results from the porn channels. Not cool people!

Sure, there are other things I'd like to see on the HR2x DVRs... like a recently deleted folder (ala TiVo), Episode Guide (ala TiVo), HD GUI, the ability to set up Autorecords for shows/movies (not currently airing) listed in Filmographies, the ability to MOVE content from one DVR to another, the ability to CANCEL DoublePlay, no OTA restrictions, better parental controls (ala TiVo), MRV customization (particularly if they plan on charging for it), and several other things which escape me right now, but the above are my main issues.

If there were no 50 Series Link limit, I'd not only have one more of my biggest gripes to cross off the list, but one of the biggest.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> When you were informed that you didn't have room for a 51st SL, did you have to abandon your search in order to delete an old SL, and then did you have to recreate the search?
> 
> Or did the BACK button get you back into the search sequence? (Aside to D* fanboys: Yep, I do realize that my HR10 doesn't have the very useful BACK button. Sometimes I wish it did. Maybe the next DirecTiVo will.)


I don't know... I didn't try. As I said, the only reason I did the Autorecords was to see if DirecTV had changed anything since the last time I tried. I didn't want to criticize them for something they didn't deserve. 



Syzygy said:


> Back in 2008 I had 45 to 50 SLs and heard that my HR21 would be more responsive if I had 30 to 40. So I gradually reduced my SL count to around 35 (using combo keyword Autorecords), and my HR21 did indeed seem a little snappier. Or maybe it was just my imagination.
> 
> What about your experience? Could you maybe cancel some SLs which show (0) upcoming, as a trial?


Too much trouble...

I could reduce the Series Links to 0... and it might REALLY speed up, but then there goes one of my favorite DVR features. 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

Alan Gordon said:


> The 50 Series Link limit is certainly one of my biggest complaints about the HR2x DVRs... For those keeping track, my other biggest gripes are ...


You had an interesting list.

50: I've always wondered why people cared about the 50 limit. 

Wishlists: Always turned that off right away.

Cast & Crew: Had forgot TiVo had that. Guess I didn't use it much.

Speed: Yep, speed is good. Very important.

PiG/PiL: Love it. Could never go back to without it. I'm always browsing the guide or list while watching. Constantly.

Search: Do maybe a search a week. Rarely. Most recordings are series links. Try to keep it below 20 or it's too much to watch.

Recently Deleted: Would love that.

Episode Guide: Hmmm.

HD GUI: Seems like it might be nice but speed is most important and wouldn't want it to slow anything down. Just want to be able to get to things instantaneously.

Autorecords: Have never set one up. Ever.

Move content DVR to DVR: A MUST. Please.

Cancel Doubleplay: Don't care I guess. DP has been fine.

OTA: Never used it.

Parental Controls: Don't care.

MRV Customization: DVR Selection Please.


----------



## uber_geek

Anyone remember the days when people were paying $1k-$1500 for a HR10-250?! ... I just remember that it was launched around Christmas, and the unit had almost hit Elmo status on Ebay. #reminisce


----------



## Sixto

uber_geek said:


> Anyone remember the days when people were paying $1k-$1500 for a HR10-250?! ... I just remember that it was launched around Christmas, and the unit had almost hit Elmo status on Ebay. #reminisce


Yep, I bought two. Still have them in storage.


----------



## loudo

uber_geek said:


> Anyone remember the days when people were paying $1k-$1500 for a HR10-250?! ... I just remember that it was launched around Christmas, and the unit had almost hit Elmo status on Ebay. #reminisce


It hurts my wallet when I think about what I paid for that first unit.


----------



## Richierich

Yes, I paid dearly for mine and I was one of the First Ones to get one because I had it Overnighted to me which again cost me dearly but it was worth it and alot of excitement generated by it even though it led to a lot of birthing pains such as we go thru with the HR2X DVRs.

I got mine on April 22, 2004 only because I had it Overnighted but it was indeed fun as alot of posters at Tivocommunity.com PMed me about the unit. Kinda like waiting for the HR24 and the next DIRECTIVO DVR!!!

I paid over $1,000 including shipping for mine but it was worth it as we had anticipated this DVR for about one year and there was so much speculation about what it would have functionally. Alot of Fun Anticipating!!!

And Yes I remember chatting with you Earl from time to time about this and other things related to Audio and Video. Also, at AVS Forum.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

uber_geek said:


> Anyone remember the days when people were paying $1k-$1500 for a HR10-250?! ... I just remember that it was launched around Christmas, and the unit had almost hit Elmo status on Ebay. #reminisce


The pre-order started right around Christmas.
The boxes didn't ship till late April.

And yes, I am one of the ones that paid $1k


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I am one of the ones who said, "Are you fracking kidding me?" and secretly wished he could shell out the $1k.


----------



## Sixto

Just found my first order from December 2004 :


Code:


SKU: 	 	 	hr10-63
Product: 	  	DirecTV HR10-250 HD TiVo Upgraded to 63 HD Hours
Quantity: 	  	1
Item price: 	  	$ 1,299.00

Delivery: 	  	FedEx Standard Overnight

Subtotal: 	  	$ 1,299.00
Shipping cost: 	  	$ 75.32
Tax: 	  		$ 0.00
TOTAL: 	  		$ 1,374.32

2nd order was June 2004 for another $999.


----------



## Steve

Sixto said:


> Just found one of my orders June 2004 :
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Hughes DIRECTV® HD Receiver/Digital Video Recorder (Up to 200 hours)
> 
> DTV/HR10250
> 
> subtotal:
> $999.99
> 
> shipping:
> $15.60
> 
> total sales tax:
> $88.87
> 
> total current purchase:
> $1,104.46


Same here. I got my first one at Circuit City.

I actually thought it was a bargain, because I paid $750 for my first 30 GB TiVo "Series One" five years earlier. I recently found the shipping box with the Amazon invoice still inside it.

I can't find the receipts for my Sat-T60's, but I'm pretty sure those set me back at least $400 each.


----------



## Sixto

Steve said:


> Same here.
> 
> I actually thought it was a bargain, because I paid $750 for my first 30 GB TiVo "Series One" in 1999. I recently found the shipping box with the Amazon invoice still inside it.
> 
> I can't find the receipts for my Sat-T60's, but I'm pretty sure those set me back at least $400 each.


Actually just updated the post with the first one. Upgraded: 1299! ouch


----------



## Richierich

I thought there was a One Hundred Dollar Reduction for the First So Many Customers and I believe I got mine for $999.99 minus the $100 from Robert at Valueelectronics.com.


----------



## RAD

Boy, I remember those days, checking on updates from Robert at Value Electronics on when he was expecting his big shippment. And the list at TivoCommunity on who had what order number there and who's received one. Then the posts that the CircuitCity web site was showing they were available, they out of stock and then back in stock again. Yea, the $1K was a bit high but I justified it to myself think how I had spend $500 for a Mits HD receiver that I was getting a box that had much more capabilities.


----------



## bonscott87

Good list Alan.



Alan Gordon said:


> [*]*No comparable feature to Wishlists.* Sure, there is Autorecord, but I want the ability to simply save a search instead of setting it to record.


Hmmmm, have you tried the "Recent Searches" option on the search screen? It's basically a "saved search" which you can use. I used these all the time to find movies or sports I didn't want autorecorded. I only used autorecord on 2 of my searches, the rest were just here ready to be run anytime. The one feature missing though from Tivo is the ability to run them all at once.



> [*]*PiL & PiM.* Seriously people... whose bright idea was it to put a PiL and a PiM on a DVR? It's a great feature on an STB, but NOT on a DVR. Some people like it, so at least offer an OPTION to turn it off for those who don't watch much live TV.


I also do wish it was an option to turn off for those that want to but we really liked it in our household. But the reason is it there is if you look at the STB landscape across the industry, including DVRs, this is a feature of virtually all of them *except* Tivo. However even Tivo is getting into the game, the Comcast Tivo has it. And the upcoming Tivo Premier even has it. But I do believe I did read there would be an option to turn it off. Would be good for DirecTV to follow suit.



> [*]*Lack of an ability to omit channels.* A few weeks ago, I did a search for Kristen Bell. My search brought up 500 results due to "Couples Retreat" being on PPV... the result I was looking for was one of the choices on the bottom of the results... which meant I was there for probably ten minutes or more trying to find ONE PROGRAM.


Have you tried adding NNOT PPV to the end of your search? I'm pretty sure this would eliminate any PPV showing up.
OR put in a CCHAN range that doesn't include the 100's, thus no PPV will show up (and no VOD either).


----------



## Steve

richierich said:


> I thought there was a One Hundred Dollar Reduction for the First So Many Customers and I believe I got mine for $999.99 minus the $100 from Robert at Valueelectronics.com.


I actually live in the same town as Robert but got on his "waiting list" too late, so my Circuit City pre-order came in first. I think I bought all my other's from DirecTV, a couple more at bust-out retail, but IIRC, they gave me some programming credits to help ease the pain.


----------



## Steve

bonscott87 said:


> I also do wish it was an option to turn off for those that want to but we really liked it in our household. But the reason is it there is if you look at the STB landscape across the industry, including DVRs, this is a feature of virtually all of them *except* Tivo. However even Tivo is getting into the game, the Comcast Tivo has it. And the upcoming Tivo Premier even has it. But I do believe I did read there would be an option to turn it off. Would be good for DirecTV to follow suit.


Ya. According to this, the SLOMO key apparently toggles the Premiere PIG/PIL off or on. Or you can permanently turn it off under settings.

I thought it funny that TiVo actually implemented PRESS/HOLD of REW/FF for jump to beginning/end on the new remote. Let's see if it works any better for them.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> You had an interesting list.





Sixto said:


> 50: I've always wondered why people cared about the 50 limit.


Some of us have more than 50 series we'd like to record. Another thing to add too is that I watch several cable series that run for several episodes, and then go on hiatus... and so on... so being able to keep those Series Links even when the show isn't on, means I don't have to worry about when it comes back. For instance, two programs I watch on the HR10-250 ("White Collar" and "Psych") just ended their season. On my HR10-250, I can keep the Season Passes and when the new episodes start, it will show up.

Another thing too is that some channels like SciFi tend to air some older shows from time to time in mini-marathons. Shows I enjoy watching from time to time. I currently have several of these shows as Season Passes on my HR10-250. I don't have room to do this on my HR2x DVRs.



Sixto said:


> Wishlists: Always turned that off right away.


You're apparently thinking of Suggestions. While I LOVE Suggestions, and enjoyed them immensely on my TiVos, given the HD space that HD takes up, I have them turned off on my TiVo's I own now as well.

As for Wishlists, I have over 100 on my TiVo Series 3. I love being able to see when my favorites actors/actresses are appearing in stuff... stuff I might not even be aware of without Wishlists. While I'm not a big fan of the late night talk shows, they can also be VERY helpful in finding out when yours favorites will be appearing on them.

The other TiVo fans I know... my Mom and my Grandmother love them as well. My grandmother likes them as they enable her to find old movies with some of her favorite actors of yesteryear.

I was the second person I know to get a DVR... and whenever I would tell people about it, Wishlists was one of the features they found the most interesting.



Sixto said:


> Cast & Crew: Had forgot TiVo had that. Guess I didn't use it much.


I use it constantly on my TiVo Series 3... both in checking guest stars for an episode... and in Wishlists results. Rarely use it on my HR2x.



Sixto said:


> Speed: Yep, speed is good. Very important.






Sixto said:


> PiG/PiL: Love it. Could never go back to without it. I'm always browsing the guide or list while watching. Constantly.


I like PiG. PiL and PiM is moronic! I never liked the idea, but after having the endings of several shows ruined for me, I hate it.

When I see that my HR2x is recording something... I turn on my TV, my AVR, and then my HR23-700... all the while looking down. I immediately pause it, then check the bottom of the screen (while trying not to pay attention to what else is on the screen... to see if it's recording whatever channel I'm currently sitting on. If it is... I then hit Playlist.... continuing not to look at the PiL while I select whatever program it is that I want to view.

I understand there are those (like you) who like it... but at least offer an option for those of us who don't like to have endings ruined... and feel stupid having to look down whenever we turn our DVRs on.

P.S.: The ComcasTiVo has PiG (YAY!), PiL (BOO!) and PiM (BOO!) as well as the TiVo Premiere. I'd be shocked if the DirecTiVo didn't as well. 



Sixto said:


> Search: Do maybe a search a week. Rarely. Most recordings are series links. Try to keep it below 20 or it's too much to watch.


I rarely use Search as well. Wishlists on TiVo are great, but the Search feature on the HR2x's suck!



Sixto said:


> Recently Deleted: Would love that.


I've only had a couple of instances with the HR2x where I wished I had it, but it's a nice feature to have nonetheless.



Sixto said:


> Episode Guide: Hmmm.


Great feature! I've used it on my TiVo quite a bit this year... and I'm glad to see that TiVo is bringing this feature to the forefront more with the TiVo Premiere.



Sixto said:


> HD GUI: Seems like it might be nice but speed is most important and wouldn't want it to slow anything down. Just want to be able to get to things instantaneously.


If given a choice, I agree... but there are many products out there with HD GUIs which don't seem to have speed issues.



Sixto said:


> Autorecords: Have never set one up. Ever.


Aside from testing purposes one week, and earlier today's checking to see whether or not DirecTV had changed the way it worked, I haven't either.



Sixto said:


> Move content DVR to DVR: A MUST. Please.






Sixto said:


> Cancel Doubleplay: Don't care I guess. DP has been fine.


A couple of times I have activated DP by accident... thereby taking up room on my HD when I was low on space... thereby causing something I was recording later that night to not record due to low disk space.



Sixto said:


> OTA: Never used it.


Apparently you have HD-LIL! 



Sixto said:


> Parental Controls: Don't care.


As someone who doesn't have kids, it's not really big on my list either, but as someone who knows MANY people with kids, I wouldn't recommend the HR2x for it's parental controls. Honestly, why TiVo doesn't advertise it's TiVo KidZone feature more is beyond me. With the new DirecTiVo coming with TiVo KidZone, TiVo would be wise to advertise this feature over the HR2x DVRs.



Sixto said:


> MRV Customization: DVR Selection Please.


I could probably think of at least a half dozen things I'd like MRV to do over what it does now. If they intend on charging for MRV, I hope they intend to offer better customization.

~Alan


----------



## loudo

Alan Gordon said:


> Some of us have more than 50 series we'd like to record. Another thing to add too is that I watch several cable series that run for several episodes, and then go on hiatus... and so on... so being able to keep those Series Links even when the show isn't on, means I don't have to worry about when it comes back. For instance, two programs I watch on the HR10-250 ("White Collar" and "Psych") just ended their season. On my HR10-250, I can keep the Season Passes and when the new episodes start, it will show up.


Alan, you must do a lot of watching to have that many recorded series. I have about 10 on one receiver and my wife has about 5 on another. Between them and the premium movies we record, it keeps us well fed with video to watch. It would be interesting to see what the average amount series that subscribers record.


----------



## Richierich

I have the ability to have 300 Series Links with my 6 DVRs which is one nice thing about having multiple DVRs and with MRV it it all Transparent but I don't think I could ever use more than 60 or 70 Series Links. I think I only have about 40 or more but I do manually do a lot of Recording Setups as I Browse Shows that are coming up!!!


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Good list Alan.


Thanks!



bonscott87 said:


> Hmmmm, have you tried the "Recent Searches" option on the search screen? It's basically a "saved search" which you can use. I used these all the time to find movies or sports I didn't want autorecorded. I only used autorecord on 2 of my searches, the rest were just here ready to be run anytime. The one feature missing though from Tivo is the ability to run them all at once.


Recent Searches only saves the last 25. For someone with over 100 Wishlists on their TiVo, it simply isn't comparable. Even if I was someone that only wanted 25 Wishlists, there are actions you can do on the HR2x which will delete older searches. As I said, it simply isn't comparable.



bonscott87 said:


> I also do wish it was an option to turn off for those that want to but we really liked it in our household. But the reason is it there is if you look at the STB landscape across the industry, including DVRs, this is a feature of virtually all of them *except* Tivo. However even Tivo is getting into the game, the Comcast Tivo has it. And the upcoming Tivo Premier even has it. But I do believe I did read there would be an option to turn it off. Would be good for DirecTV to follow suit.


I may not understand the mindset of the individuals who like it, but I've certainly found on here and TiVo Community that it's a popular feature.

*There needs to be a feature to turn it off though...*



bonscott87 said:


> Have you tried adding NNOT PPV to the end of your search? I'm pretty sure this would eliminate any PPV showing up.
> OR put in a CCHAN range that doesn't include the 100's, thus no PPV will show up (and no VOD either).


I REFUSE to do the whole NNOT PPV or CCHAN crap!

I've often mentioned on this thread that I really want to upgrade my Grandmother to HD, and I really want to replace her TiVo with another TiVo. I can see me explaining NNOT PPV or CCHAN to her.  

BTW, while I have no interest in bringing up PPV results, I like VOD results being brought up as long as CIG works.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> Ya. According to this, the SLOMO key apparently toggles the Premiere PIG/PIL off or on. Or you can permanently turn it off under settings.


There needs to be even more customization than that. I like PiG, but not PiL/PiM.



richierich said:


> I have the ability to have 300 Series Links with my 6 DVRs which is one nice thing about having multiple DVRs and with MRV it it all Transparent but I don't think I could ever use more than 60 or 70 Series Links. I think I only have about 40 or more but I do manually do a lot of Recording Setups as I Browse Shows that are coming up!!!


Not everybody has 6 DVRs. Some people have multiple DVRs, but not want certain DVRs to record certain programs. Some people want their main DVR to do the majority of the work.

It's great when people can work around roadblocks... but not everybody has that ability... and some simply don't want to go to the extra trouble associated with workarounds.



loudo said:


> Alan, you must do a lot of watching to have that many recorded series. I have about 10 on one receiver and my wife has about 5 on another. Between them and the premium movies we record, it keeps us well fed with video to watch. It would be interesting to see what the average amount series that subscribers record.


I have multiple series on my HR10-250 at any given time that have no upcoming episodes. One of the great things about DVRs is that you can set it, and in most cases, forget about it. Unfortunately, for those of us who do watch a lot of television... or those who like to experiment with multiple programs, the 50 Series Link limit can severely limit that great DVR feature.

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Alan Gordon said:


> I REFUSE to do the whole NNOT PPV or CCHAN crap!


Why not? Is it just the principle of the thing that you won't use the tools provided to you? When these options where added they made the HR2x searches more powerful then a Tivo wishlist, at least for me and what I looked for. Then again I have never once in 10 years searched on an actor's name to find movies by them. I just don't care, I have too much to watch as it is with my 30 season passes and Netflix. 

What's funny is now that I don't have DirecTV and use Windows Media Center I see that DirecTV took a lot from WMC in terms of searching. In fact I think Windows 7 Media Center with a couple plugins kicks both Tivo and DirecTV's butt in terms of DVR interface overall. Seriously, it's that good.



> I've often mentioned on this thread that I really want to upgrade my Grandmother to HD, and I really want to replace her TiVo with another TiVo. I can see me explaining NNOT PPV or CCHAN to her.


Explain what. Just set them up for her and she won't know how it happens.  
But your point is well taken. I was a long time advocate that DirecTV needs to put those boolean operators in the search GUI so that you don't need a math degree to understand them.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Why not? Is it just the principle of the thing that you won't use the tools provided to you?


Pretty much...

Look, with TiVo... I was able to weed out the PPV channels. I didn't have to type in all this stuff to omit PPV... I could set it once and forget it.



bonscott87 said:


> When these options where added they made the HR2x searches more powerful then a Tivo wishlist, at least for me and what I looked for. Then again I have never once in 10 years searched on an actor's name to find movies by them. I just don't care, I have too much to watch as it is with my 30 season passes and Netflix.


That's great for you, but it's one of my favorite features... one I know both my Mom and Grandmother use, and something that everybody I told about LOVED.

We disagree about the HR2x searches being more powerful though...



bonscott87 said:


> What's funny is now that I don't have DirecTV and use Windows Media Center I see that DirecTV took a lot from WMC in terms of searching. In fact I think Windows 7 Media Center with a couple plugins kicks both Tivo and DirecTV's butt in terms of DVR interface overall. Seriously, it's that good.


I really like aspects of the WMC. I'm sure I'd dislike others as well... but I could see me potentially agreeing with you... at least partly anyway.



bonscott87 said:


> Explain what. Just set them up for her and she won't know how it happens.


Sometimes it wouldn't be an issue, but I could see it being a problem if I'm at work and she wants me to do a Search for her...  



bonscott87 said:


> But your point is well taken. I was a long time advocate that DirecTV needs to put those boolean operators in the search GUI so that you don't need a math degree to understand them.


Or better yet, an option to either omit PPV from Search Results... or at the very least... bunch all PPV results into a folder instead listing each PPV airing as a result.

~Alan


----------



## bonscott87

Alan Gordon said:


> We disagree about the HR2x searches being more powerful though...


Well, I think it's a case by case basis. I'll give my example. I could never use the Tivo Wishlist to record sports. Reason is that it would always record off the lowest channel number if there were multiple matches.

So if I had my wishlist for my Red Wings, if they were on both my RSN and ESPN (this was back in the days the NHL was ESPN of course) it would record the game on ESPN which I would never want, I want my RSN announcers. So I never autorecorded the wishlist and instead used it as a saved search and choose the games manually every couple weeks. Was actually not a big deal, but I couldn't autorecord.

Now on the HR2x I can simply limit the search to a certain channel or channel range. Thus I can target the autorecrod search to just my RSN or a group of them. This then allowed me for the first time in years to actually autorecord my Red Wings games without me manually checking it every week. In addition I took advantage of the advanced boolean search terms so that a single autorecord search would record not only the game but also the pre-game show and not record the post game. Could never do that with a Tivo wishlist.

Now granted, this is probably a targeted search but for sports anyway, you can definitely get more powerful searched on the HR2x. Maybe not so much for actors and directors and such.

Anyway...


----------



## trainman

Alan Gordon said:


> Recent Searches only saves the last 25. For someone with over 100 Wishlists on their TiVo, it simply isn't comparable. Even if I was someone that only wanted 25 Wishlists, there are actions you can do on the HR2x which will delete older searches. As I said, it simply isn't comparable.


...and on the TiVo, you can get one combined list of the upcoming programs that match all of your Wishlists. I took advantage of that feature at least once a week when I had TiVo. With the HR2x, you have to check all the "Recent Searches" individually.

I do like the Boolean search options on the HR2x, though. If the HR2x software added some manner of "saved search" functionality similar to the way the TiVo Wishlist works, I probably would no longer be interested in switching back to TiVo.


----------



## Skyboss

loudo said:


> It hurts my wallet when I think about what I paid for that first unit.


My wife reminds me of this every so often.... Anytime I buy something new now its:

"WTF do we need this for? Another doorstop?":nono2:

D has cost me dearly. Not only in fees, but also in gadget purchasing credibility.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Now granted, this is probably a targeted search but for sports anyway, you can definitely get more powerful searched on the HR2x. Maybe not so much for actors and directors and such.


TiVo has improved their Wishlists on the stand-alones (I think)... so it's possible you might not have the same issue anymore... though it's probably still the same.

Still... I've never really done anything like your example since, for one thing, I don't use Autorecords... nor do I watch sports _much_.



trainman said:


> ...and on the TiVo, you can get one combined list of the upcoming programs that match all of your Wishlists. I took advantage of that feature at least once a week when I had TiVo. With the HR2x, you have to check all the "Recent Searches" individually.
> 
> I do like the Boolean search options on the HR2x, though. If the HR2x software added some manner of "saved search" functionality similar to the way the TiVo Wishlist works, I probably would no longer be interested in switching back to TiVo.


Unfortunately, on the stand-alones, they only allow a combined list of XX number of Wishlists anymore. I'm still ticked at them for doing this. 

~Alan


----------



## Syzygy

trainman said:


> ... If the HR2x software added some manner of "saved search" functionality similar to the way the TiVo Wishlist works, I probably would no longer be interested in switching back to TiVo.


I'll remain *very* interested in switching back to TiVo as long as the dozen major bugs and 60+ design deficiencies remain in the HR2x software. (I've listed all of them elsewhere. And most of those issues have existed for the life of the HR2x series.)

Being a software designer and coder has made me intolerant of incompetent software.


----------



## Doug Brott

Syzygy said:


> I'll remain *very* interested in switching back to TiVo as long as the dozen major bugs and 60+ design deficiencies remain in the HR2x software. (I've listed all of them elsewhere. And most of those issues have existed for the life of the HR2x series.)
> 
> Being a software designer and coder has made me intolerant of incompetent software.


Many of those design deficiencies on your list are personal preferences ..


----------



## Brennok

Alan Gordon said:


> TiVo has improved their Wishlists on the stand-alones (I think)... so it's possible you might not have the same issue anymore... though it's probably still the same.


They have added several options to the Wishlists on the Tivo HD. I don't use them often anymore because most of what I record is only on a single channel.



Alan Gordon said:


> Unfortunately, on the stand-alones, they only allow a combined list of XX number of Wishlists anymore. I'm still ticked at them for doing this.
> 
> ~Alan


I hadn't heard they had added a limit, but that may be due to the hardware. I know wishlists were always one of the things that contributed most to slowdown since it had to search all the guide data.


----------



## gregjones

Syzygy said:


> I'll remain *very* interested in switching back to TiVo as long as the dozen major bugs and 60+ design deficiencies remain in the HR2x software. (I've listed all of them elsewhere. And most of those issues have existed for the life of the HR2x series.)
> 
> Being a software designer and coder has made me intolerant of incompetent software.


Most of these are personal preferences. A few are design flaws (Channels I Get and 50 Series Limits). I'm a systems analyst and have designed software for the last 20 years. Having a pedigree doesn't mean we agree. Tivo and the HR2x platform are both designed well. Both have deficiencies.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Brennok said:


> I hadn't heard they had added a limit, but that may be due to the hardware. I know wishlists were always one of the things that contributed most to slowdown since it had to search all the guide data.


They have. It worked fine on my TiVo Series 3 until a firmware update a year or two ago. Hopefully they will allow change that in a future update, as well as not having a limit on the TiVo Premiere or DirecTiVo.

~Alan


----------



## Nicholsen

Doug Brott said:


> Many of those design deficiencies on your list are personal preferences ..


Your point being that (i) you are tired of Syzygy or (ii) the HR2x only has roughly 30+ major bugs and design deficiencies?

Most of the HR2x units are painfully slowwwww (see the discussion about the amazing speed of the new HR24), and none of them can figure out what channels they get.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Nicholsen said:


> Your point being that (i) you are tired of Syzygy or (ii) *the HR2x only has roughly 30+ major bugs and design deficiencies*?


Please share that list.

Thank you.


----------



## Richierich

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Please share that list.
> 
> Thank you.


Yes, Please Share That List, Nicholsen, as I am very curious what would be on it!!!


----------



## Nicholsen

Success has a thousand fathers, but the HR2x is an orphan (well, perhaps just an Epic Fail).

I will take Syzygy's list and allow you to drop the least serious 30 items of your choice. It's by far the best list I have seen to date, and I think you have seen it too. I only wish D* would work on the items on the list, like the "channels I get" bug

The clear point of my post is that even if a majority of Syzygy's 60 to 72 items are "preferences," that still leaves roughly 30 major design flaws and bugs. That is no way to win an argument.

I could maintain and post a list of my own, but the time I spend watching the ( "please wait...") screen cuts into my free time, and my list would just be a crib of Syzygy's in any case. 

I am still waiting for the magic NR that was going to solve all of the speed issues with the HR2x series. However, It would appear with the release of the speedy HR24 that even DirecTV now appears to acknowledge that the HR21, 22 and 23 are simply underpowered and too slow.


----------



## Steve

Probably better to discuss *Syzygy's *"list" in its original thread, no? Just my .02.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=164125


----------



## inkahauts

Nicholsen said:


> Success has a thousand fathers, but the HR2x is an orphan (well, perhaps just an Epic Fail).
> 
> I will take Syzygy's list and allow you to drop the least serious 30 items of your choice. It's by far the best list I have seen to date, and I think you have seen it too. I only wish D* would work on the items on the list, like the "channels I get" bug
> 
> The clear point of my post is that even if a majority of Syzygy's 60 to 72 items are "preferences," that still leaves roughly 30 major design flaws and bugs. That is no way to win an argument.
> 
> I could maintain and post a list of my own, but the time I spend watching the ( "please wait...") screen cuts into my free time, and my list would just be a crib of Syzygy's in any case.
> 
> I am still waiting for the magic NR that was going to solve all of the speed issues with the HR2x series. However, It would appear with the release of the speedy HR24 that even DirecTV now appears to acknowledge that the HR21, 22 and 23 are simply underpowered and too slow.


I don't see design flaws, I see design differences than what he wants.. The unit works the way it is designed... There are 2 real issues IMHO.. Number one, speed can be an issue, especially on hr21 and latter models... (not the hr24 though, thankfully) The other is not even an HR issue, but rather a directv system issue with CIG......

Everything else is a want in change of operation more than anything else.. I am not disagreeing with them per se, because many of them I'd like to see changed/implemented as well, but to call them failures because it doesn't work the way You want it too... Nope, not an acceptable argument in any realistic discussion... An epic failure of an argument if there ever was one..

I for one hope Directv does see another tivo come out, so people who hate the hr's can get one of those things that has what I believe is one of the worst interfaces on the planet for any GUI based system for adults... And then everyone will be happy! Frankly, one GUI will never make everyone happy, I don't care what its for...


----------



## Nicholsen

*Originally posted by Syzygy*

Here's my list of more than 60 HR2x inadequacies. If I've left out any material defect or annoyance, please help me out.

I've tried to include every design deficiency, annoyance and plain stupidity in the HR2x software that I could recall. Except for the DoublePlay item, I've experienced each of these defects with my HR21s (two in succession), and as far as I can tell none of them have been fixed yet. (The fact that search results unavoidably include VOD shows and channels you don't get is intentional, driven by marketing.) A few lucky people may not have seen everything I've seen; maybe they use fewer features, or maybe they have a box that's fast enough for their tastes (the HR20s are said to be faster).

I haven't included complaints about cosmetics; these would be purely matters of opinion. Most of these items (but not all) are better on a TiVo, but the main intent of this list isn't to praise that elegant DVR interface, but rather to indict the HR2x's. To defenders of the D* faith: Please, please refrain from the usual (and predictable) denials.

••• Slow Reaction
• A new Series Link or Autorecorded Search can take days to correctly schedule all its recordings
• An Autorecorded Search re-executed from the Prioritizer usually returns very few of the possible matches
• Missed recordings are still happening (even when the Series Link is long-established)
• The entire UI is so slow that keys are ignored, or acted on too late (and it's probably not because the hardware is inadequate)
• Press-and-hold functions work only sometimes
• Press-and-hold functions, when they work, take way too long to engage
• Press-and-hold functions sometimes engage when you least expect it
• Instant Replay goes back only 5 seconds, and sometimes takes 2 or 3 seconds to act, leading you to press it too many times
• You can't pause a recording on the right frame unless you anticipate and press the Pause key early
• All remote button presses are ignored for the first few seconds after playback starts
• Entering letters with the numeric keypad frequently generates mistakes

••• Recording
• Series Links are limited to 50 (and the interface is even slower if you use all 50)
• No way to tell what channel the background tuner was on when nothing is recording
• DoublePlay won't continuously buffer the background tuner (after two hours)
• Big separate partition to hold PPV/VOD shows you'll never buy
• Unsupported add-on disk storage (eSATA) disables the internal disk drive and is subject to erasure
• Manual recording is unnecessarily difficult, requiring too many keypresses
• No way to enter a 3-digit channel number when recording manually
• Manual recording can't be used to capture what's in the foreground buffer
• End-padding of recordings is limited to certain arbitrary amounts; for example, pads of 3, 4, and 10 minutes aren't allowed
• Start-padding of recordings is even more limited (1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 minutes); 15, 20 and 30 minutes would be nice [new]
• The only way to see a long Prioritizer item (without the "...") is to make it do its (usually ineffective) search
• History list gives incorrect reasons for a show's cancellation or deletion
• Neither channel name nor number can be seen in the History list 'til you view the detail screen [new]

••• Searching
• Search results don't always include all matches
• Search results in general include all channels: VOD shows, PPV channels, and all the channels you can't get
• Person and Keyword searches produce lists that contain channel numbers but not channel names
• Keyword searches are limited to 50 characters, and the TTITLE and CCHAN operators are unnecessarily long
• There have been no improvements for keyword search expressions in spite of many good suggestions
• Channel searches require that you know the first few letters of the channel name; you can't search for Red Zone, for example
• Autorecording based on keyword searching records PPV channels and a few channels you can't get
• Search-result lists refresh themselves for no reason, and sometimes restart from the beginning
• The list of Recent Searches is limited to 25, so you must frequently recreate them [new]

••• User Interface
• No dedicated Slow Motion key
• No dedicated Clear key; Exit clears, but might dismiss the program you're watching
• The Dash (-) key is wasted on a useless "Recorder OK?" function; it could've been the Clear key
• The Dash (-) key can be pressed twice to delete items from some lists but not from others [new]
• The Active key is another wasted button; it also wastes your time when pressed by accident
• Autocorrection after FF goes way too far backwards after all 3 speeds (and when pressing Pause in live TV)
• Stepping after a pause requires multiple presses of the >> button
• The progress bar does not go away by itself when you single-step
• The progress bar covers 15% of the screen (TiVo's covers about 3%)
• There's no way (like TiVo's backdoor) to make the progress bar disappear by itself quickly
• Pressing Play twice to make the progress bar disappear often makes it reappear instead [new]
• The progress bar shows a recording as complete no matter how much of it was lost to rain fade
• Closed Captioning uses only low-resolution fonts with jagged edges (maybe "Subtitling" is better)
• Closed Captioning does not stay on during FF1
• Show's full name (without the "...") isn't shown in the blank area at the top of the To Do List or the History list
• I'd miss TiVo's backdoor elapsed-time display if I didn't have a plasma TV
• The Format key can't change the way an HD channel is displayed when the TV Ratio is set to 16:9, yet it cycles through all the options

••• Navigation
• Too many keypresses required to get to the To Do List, the Prioritizer, or Manual recording
• No way (Ch up/down?) to go directly to the previous/next detailed show description in any list
• Returning from a detailed show description to a list takes too much time refreshing the list
• Now Playing doesn't remember where you were [new]
• The Prioritizer doesn't remember where you were [new]
• Recent Searches doesn't remember where you were [new]
• No menu remembers where you were in it [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in the To Do List [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Now Playing [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of the Prioritizer [new]
• No way to go quickly to the top or bottom of Recent Searches [new]
• No way to go quickly to the end of the History list [new]
• No way to skip to a given date in History [new]

••• Miscellaneous
• Occasionally jittery sound (brrrpp) and picture
• Screen saver is jumpy and gets interrupted by flashes of an unrecognizable full-screen image [new]
• Search for Titles: Kool & the Gang is listed only as "& the Gang, Kool"
• Search for Titles: Jackson 5 is listed only as "5, Jackson"
• Any bug fix is usually kept secret, referred to only generically as "UI Polishing" (for example)
• The HR2x user interface is an award-losing interface.

Most of these problems have been reported over and over by many users. While they haven't been fixed, several unrequested and fairly useless features have been added.


----------



## Nicholsen

inkahauts said:


> I don't see design flaws, I see design differences than what he wants.. The unit works the way it is designed... There are 2 real issues IMHO.. Number one, speed can be an issue, especially on hr21 and latter models... (not the hr24 though, thankfully) The other is not even an HR issue, but rather a directv system issue with CIG......
> 
> Everything else is a want in change of operation more than anything else.. I am not disagreeing with them per se, because many of them I'd like to see changed/implemented as well, but to call them failures because it doesn't work the way You want it too... Nope, not an acceptable argument in any realistic discussion... An epic failure of an argument if there ever was one..
> 
> I for one hope Directv does see another tivo come out, so people who hate the hr's can get one of those things that has what I believe is one of the worst interfaces on the planet for any GUI based system for adults... And then everyone will be happy! Frankly, one GUI will never make everyone happy, I don't care what its for...


How is the slo-mo on your HR?

Most people find the HR slo-mo implementation useless.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> Your point being that (i) you are tired of Syzygy or (ii) the HR2x only has roughly 30+ major bugs and design deficiencies?
> 
> Most of the HR2x units are painfully slowwwww (see the discussion about the amazing speed of the new HR24), and none of them can figure out what channels they get.


Or the point being .. I can play the same game ..

I get the "slow" thing, the best you'll find is that I did say once (when one round) that the "next release would be better" .. this was when everything was 2x painfully slow .. Things improved and they will continue to improve, but the speed is what it is today. Other than the new HR24, You'll be hard pressed to find once where I said it was "fast."

That being said .. The things I do are generally non-burdensome. I bring up the playlist and I start a program .. trick play works great and I'm happy with the performance. HR24 is better than HR23.

Past that .. There are a few annoyances for me, but it's all good. I'll work towards pushing for the things I'd like to see, but that's about it. I'm definitely not gonna run around and say there are "X" deficiencies .. That's not the way I do it. My method would be .. Oh, that's great, but perhaps we could have 1 or 2 of these X things added/fixed .. then I'd do it all over again once we've passed that threshold.


----------



## loudo

Nicholsen said:


> Originally posted by Syzygy
> My wife continues to use our HR10-250, mostly for SD even though it's attached to an HDTV (Sony tube), because its interface is so friendly and fast. Eventually we hope to have two MPEG-4 TiVos.


My wife was very attached and comfortable with our HR10-250, and didn't want to upgrade to the HR20, but when she couldn't get some of the channels we could on the other DRV (HR20), she agreed to change. I tried for a while to get her to change but it took not getting channels she wanted to pry it away from her.

Recently I mentioned to her that a new TIVO unit is being developed and she was not even interested in it, as again she is used to the HR20 and its features, and is very comfortable using it.

The big issue with many people is the fact that they are comfortable with a particular unit and don't want to have to learn how to use one that is different.

When the new unit comes out I will look at it and weigh it by the following items, not because it has a TIVO logo on it:
1. How much more is the cost of the unit and are there any additional monthly DVR fees for the new unit.
2. What features it has versus those of the HR20.
3. How easy is it for others to learn to use the functions and features of the unit. I know it will not have the OTA tuners that the HR20 has.
4. I will compare it to the features of it to my current HR20-700 and see if it is worth the change over.

After that review I will make my decision on changing or not. Until you even see the unit and its features, I don't understand how anyone could make a decision on buying one, other than they like the name TIVO.


----------



## GregLee

Nicholsen said:



> *Originally posted by Syzygy*
> 
> Here's my list of more than 60 HR2x inadequacies.


Good list. (But I like my HR20-700 and H21-100.) My wife reports that FF, which she uses a lot, is snappier on this latest release for the HR20.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

inkahauts said:


> I don't see design flaws, I see design differences than what he wants.. The unit works the way it is designed... There are 2 real issues IMHO..


*+1*

If the diehard Tivo cravers are looking for something else....they can get a Tivo any day they wish. More power to ya.

For those waiting for the new DirecTV Tivobox - nothing wrong with that either. Then again, other than the Tivo UI...the differences will likely NOT be as much as some folks think (especially compared with the HR24, as its being reported in the First Look).


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> [...]If the diehard Tivo cravers are looking for something else....they can get a Tivo any day they wish. More power to ya.
> 
> For those waiting for the new DirecTV Tivobox - nothing wrong with that either. Then again, other than the Tivo UI...*the differences will likely NOT be as much as some folks think (especially compared with the HR24*, as its being reported in the First Look).


What TiVo/HR differences go away with the HR24?


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Steve said:


> What TiVo/HR differences go away with the HR24?


The real question is: Other than the GUI, what significant differences are left?


----------



## Steve

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The real question is: Other than the GUI, what significant differences are left?


Agree. I thought you had spotted some new HR24 UI or operational features and I was just curious what they were.


----------



## Sixto

The HR24 has removed any desire that I had for the new TiVo. And there was some desire, which is now just a curiosity.

As posted earlier, just 5 years ago spent $1299 for the 63 hour DirecTiVoHD, so definitely was a TiVo enthusiast at one point. Also had one of the first Series3's in September 2006.

Currently, I have multiple HR20-700's, an HR21-200, the 2006 Series3, and the HR24.

I have spent some time side-by-side comparing the Series3 to the HR24, with the most recent test leading me to question why I would ever go back to TiVo on DirecTV, especially considering that the new box will be based on the old UI, which basically may be a scaled back Series3.

I might possibly get one DirecTV TiVo box if TiVo2Go and TiVo Desktop is supported, which is basically what I use the Series3 for. Today I can take any recording on the road with me, with a simple transfer from the Series3.

Relative to the UI, I could never go back. The HR24 is just so responsive and easy to use.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

I'm anxious to see what the new HMC will offer.


----------



## Doug Brott

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The real question is: Other than the GUI, what significant differences are left?


The 50-series limit is a big turn off for some folks. While it has never affected me personally, I'm willing to call that one significant.


----------



## ibmman69

I planned to wait for the new DTV Tivo, but I may signup before it is released. If I signup before the new Tivo is released, how do I insure I receive the new HR24?


----------



## Doug Brott

ibmman69 said:


> I planned to wait for the new DTV Tivo, but I may signup before it is released. If I signup before the new Tivo is released, how do I insure I receive the new HR24?


You should at least wait until the HR24s are being distributed .. It's not clear when that will be yet.


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The real question is: Other than the GUI, what significant differences are left?


I'm not going to go over them again right now, but I think I've done a fairly good job of listing SEVERAL significant differences... 

~Alan


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Doug Brott said:


> The 50-series limit is a big turn off for some folks. While it has never affected me personally, I'm willing to call that one significant.


Yup - that one's real for sure. It doesn't affect me either, and with MRV, it won't in the future either.

But I can understand how for some folks it is important.


----------



## Alan Gordon

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yup - that one's real for sure. It doesn't affect me either, and with MRV, it won't in the future either.
> 
> But I can understand how for some folks it is important.


Absolutely. One thing to keep in mind is that with there being a charge, not everybody will have MRV... and with the advent of MRV, the 50-Series Link limit becomes even more of an issue as some people might not see a need for more than one HD-DVR.

~Alan


----------



## P Smith

TheRatPatrol said:


> I'm anxious to see what the new HMC will offer.


According current spooling FW 0x028C, the device is based on well known BCM7038 with Server-centric SW.


----------



## bonscott87

Doug Brott said:


> You should at least wait until the HR24s are being distributed .. It's not clear when that will be yet.


And even then the only way to be sure you get a 24 would be to get one in a store. If you order from DirecTV you'll just get whatever is on the truck that day.

BUT this may be a bit different with the 24 since it's built with MRV in mind. Perhaps if you specify it will be an MRV install they will ensure 24's. But that is just wild speculation at this point.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

P Smith said:


> According current spooling FW, the device is based on well known BCM7038 with Server-centric SW.


You can tell that from what's spooling?

You also thought the NXP CX24500 in the HR24 was undoubtedly a Broadcom chip so what makes you so sure?

Mike


----------



## Alan Gordon

MicroBeta said:


> You can tell that from what's spooling?
> 
> You also thought the NXP CX24500 in the HR24 was undoubtedly a Broadcom chip so what makes you so sure?


Do we know for sure that it's not? 

Right now... only the HR24-500 has had some details released.

~Alan


----------



## P Smith

MicroBeta said:


> You can tell that from what's spooling?
> 
> You also thought the NXP CX24500 in the HR24 was undoubtedly a Broadcom chip so what makes you so sure?
> 
> Mike


I did explain that time - a few manufacturers making H[R]24 models.

Answer: Clearly visible "BCM7038" words in binary file.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Alan Gordon said:


> Do we know for sure that it's not?
> 
> Right now... only the HR24-500 has had some details released.
> 
> ~Alan


According to the press releases and articles linked in the First Look thread, the NXP chip is in the HR24 DVRs. It stands to reason that it's the whole HR24 series.

Mike


----------



## P Smith

I will wait to first look with heatsink removed for each model H24 and HR24 before continue the discussion.


----------



## Alan Gordon

MicroBeta said:


> According to the press releases and articles linked in the First Look thread, the NXP chip is in the HR24 DVRs. It stands to reason that it's the whole HR24 series.


Wasn't there another article from another company stating that it too would be providing chips for the HR24... or am I confused?! 

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Alan Gordon said:


> Wasn't there another article from another company stating that it too would be providing chips for the HR24... or am I confused?!
> 
> ~Alan


Yes, a company called Trident Micro which has aquired the NXP chip.

http://www.tridentmicro.com/producttree/stb/satellite-stb/cx2450x/



> DVB/DIRECTV® compliant back-end HDTV decoder


It's the same chip which has apparently passed between companies. There are a few sources on the web that say this is the chip for the HR24.

The question is which platform the DirecTiVo will be on and my money is the HR23. :grin:

Mike


----------



## Alan Gordon

MicroBeta said:


> Yes, a company called Trident Micro which has aquired the NXP chip.
> 
> http://www.tridentmicro.com/producttree/stb/satellite-stb/cx2450x/
> 
> It's the same chip which has apparently passed between companies. There are a few sources on the web that say this is the chip for the HR24.


OH... I could have sworn there was another. Oh well! 



MicroBeta said:


> The question is which platform the DirecTiVo will be on and my money is the HR23. :grin:


I keep hoping that's not true. TonyD has already been quite vocal about the performance of the TiVoHD (with the same chips)... which is not surprising given my own feelings about the HR23 (how could anything bad happen to that number?  ).

I guess... maybe if the new DirecTiVo is neutered considerably from the stand-alones that MAYBE it might not matter... but then there are the DirecTV features it needs to add. 

~Alan


----------



## Mike Bertelson

P Smith said:


> I will wait to first look with heatsink removed for each model H24 and HR24 before continue the discussion.


I don't think you can remove the heat sink. It doesn't look like it has any releases. It seems to use an adhesive/conductive compound. I'm not sure that it would be very easy and might damage something.

Mike


----------



## Sixto

The other company was Entropic. They do the MoCA.

NXP (now Trident Micro) for processor. Entropic for Coax Networking.


----------



## Mike Bertelson

Alan Gordon said:


> OH... I could have sworn there was another. Oh well!
> 
> I keep hoping that's not true. TonyD has already been quite vocal about the performance of the TiVoHD (with the same chips)... which is not surprising given my own feelings about the HR23 (how could anything bad happen to that number?  ).
> 
> I guess... maybe if the new DirecTiVo is neutered considerably from the stand-alones that MAYBE it might not matter... but then there are the DirecTV features it needs to add.
> 
> ~Alan


There was also a press release from NXP which states.



> NXP Semiconductors today announced that its complete High Definition (HD) digital video recorder (DVR) satellite system on chip (SoC) solution has been adopted by DIRECTV, the world's most popular television service, to develop the next generation of HD DVR satellite receivers. The new *HR24 DVR *enables DIRECTV customers to easily share high-quality, high-definition digital entertainment and data throughout the home over the existing coax cable infrastructure.


http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1671.html

That pretty much locks it up for me. That is the chip in the HR24s.

Mike


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> The other company was Entropic. They do the MoCA.
> 
> NXP (now Trident Micro) for processor. Entropic for Coax Networking.


Nah... I'm pretty sure it's just my memory playing tricks on me... 

~Alan


----------



## Sixto

There are other ways to be fairly certain of the NXP processor.

There are other support chips that make up the NXP solution, and the first look does vaguely look like it contains one. Can't 100% confirm without a better photo, but looks like NXP on one of the chips, and Entropic on another.


----------



## Richierich

According to NXP, the NXP CX24500 Chipset only supports MPEG-2 Decoding and no mention of MPEG-4 Decoding so there must be another Support Chipset that Decodes MPEG-4 from Directv.


----------



## Jeremy W

richierich said:


> According to NXP, the NXP CX24500 Chipset only supports MPEG-2 Decoding and no mention of MPEG-4 Decoding


H.264 is MPEG-4, which the CX24500 does.


----------



## Richierich

Jeremy W said:


> H.264 is MPEG-4, which the CX24500 does.


Thanks for the Info but why don't they just Specify it as MPEG-4?


----------



## Jeremy W

richierich said:


> Thanks for the Info but why don't they just Specify it as MPEG-4?


MPEG-4 is a collection of standards. H.264 is a specific standard, also known as MPEG-4 AVC.


----------



## balboadave

Is there any chance the new TiVo box will be based on the HR24, or even just be the software running on an actual HR24? That would make this a slam dunk decision for me.


----------



## ATARI

balboadave said:


> Is there any chance the new TiVo box will be based on the HR24, or even just be the software running on an actual HR24? That would make this a slam dunk decision for me.


The consensus I get is that it will be the HR23. But nobody knows for sure. Only time will tell.


----------



## Syzygy

If the new TiVo box is not "based on" the HR24, but instead on the HR23, there'll be a lot of unhappy people who've been waiting for about two years — for close to nothing (or "thanks for nothing").

As someone who is often repulsed by the HR2x's slovenly software, I would still find it hard to justify buying (oops, leasing) a slow MPEG-4 TiVo if a twice-as-fast HR24 is available at the same time.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> If the new TiVo box is not "based on" the HR24, but instead on the HR23, there'll be a lot of unhappy people who've been waiting for about two years - for close to nothing (or "thanks for nothing").


If it's based on the HR23, then it'll be the same as the Tivo HD. What is so difficult to understand about that?


----------



## Syzygy

Jeremy W said:


> If it's based on the HR23, then it'll be the same as the Tivo HD. What is so difficult to understand about that?


You're taking a very condescending tone. Did I say it was "difficult to understand?"

What might be difficult, in this age of rapid obsolescence, is for nerds like me to settle for older, slower hardware - even if it's accompanied by (presumably) state-of-the-art software. (WRT "state-of-the-art," I'm thinking of TiVo's scheduling and searching methods as well as ergonomics, not necessarily a high-def UI.)


----------



## Syzygy

If the following statement (from AVSForum) is true, and the HR23 is indeed discontinued, it could be because (1) no more are being made, or (2) they're all destined to be TiVos. Which could it be?


Beerstalker said:


> ... If you check out DBSTalk.com it is widely reported by the installers/resellers/etc. that hang out there that the HR23 was discontinued a while ago and the HR22 was the only old receiver still being produced. All of the HR2X models are still being sent out as refurbs though.


----------



## dsw2112

Syzygy said:


> If the following statement (from AVSForum) is true, and the HR23 is indeed discontinued, it could be because (1) no more are being made, or (2) they're all destined to be TiVos. Which could it be?


It's likely just due to the added cost of the wideband tuners. With D* going to the SWM approach the added expense does not make sense...


----------



## RobertE

Syzygy said:


> If the following statement (from AVSForum) is true, and the HR23 is indeed discontinued, it could be because (1) no more are being made, or (2) they're all destined to be TiVos. Which could it be?


More fud. Great. 

HR23s were still rolling of the production line in late Novemember.
New HR22s & HR23s are still being sent out through the distribution channel.
Tivo is late (behind schedule as always), so I seriously doubt that any significant amount of hardware is being sent their way.


----------



## Syzygy

RobertE said:


> More fud. Great.
> 
> HR23s were still rolling off the production line in late November...


Interesting. Could you check back soon (at your convenience, of course) to see if HR23s are *still* rolling off the production line?


----------



## Beerstalker

RobertE said:


> More fud. Great.
> 
> HR23s were still rolling of the production line in late Novemember.
> New HR22s & HR23s are still being sent out through the distribution channel.
> Tivo is late (behind schedule as always), so I seriously doubt that any significant amount of hardware is being sent their way.


Really? I am pretty sure I have read on here many times that the HR23 was discontinued. They said that since D* has gone the route of SWM there was no reason to keep supporting the added cost of the wideband tuners in the HR23. They stopped making it and kept making the HR22 instead. They also didn't bother putting wideband tuners in the HR24 for the same reason.

If this is wrong I am sorry and I will go back and correct my posts at AVSForum.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

In this case I believe RobertE is privy to some information that the rest of us may not have. I know HR23 production had stopped at one point, but there's every reason to believe it could have restarted. 

At any rate, I don't think HR23 production, per se, has a whole lot to do with TiVo's apparent inability to deliver a product in Q1-2010.


----------



## RobertE

Beerstalker said:


> Really? I am pretty sure I have read on here many times that the HR23 was discontinued. They said that since D* has gone the route of SWM there was no reason to keep supporting the added cost of the wideband tuners in the HR23. They stopped making it and kept making the HR22 instead. They also didn't bother putting wideband tuners in the HR24 for the same reason.
> 
> If this is wrong I am sorry and I will go back and correct my posts at AVSForum.


I have in front of me a new in box, HR23 made on 11/23/2009. I'll put up a picture as soon as I can get my bluetooth working.


----------



## Syzygy

I see. The evidence is a new HR23 made on 11/23/2009. So it's not known whether the HR23 has been discontinued since then.


Stuart Sweet said:


> At any rate, I don't think HR23 production, per se, has a whole lot to do with TiVo's apparent inability to deliver a product in Q1-2010.


It has to do with whether the HR23 is going to be repurposed as TiVo's new product (which of course I'd hate to see happen).


----------



## Beerstalker

RobertE said:


> I have in front of me a new in box, HR23 made on 11/23/2009. I'll put up a picture as soon as I can get my bluetooth working.


No need for a picture I trust you. I was just wondering if production may have stopped after November and you weren't aware but someone else was. I'm not sure how long ago it has been since I started reading comments about the HR23 being discontinued.


----------



## RobertE

Syzygy said:


> I see. The evidence is a new HR23 made on 11/23/2009. So it's not known whether the HR23 has been discontinued since then.
> 
> It has to do with whether the HR23 is going to be repurposed as TiVo's new product (which of course I'd hate to see).


Correct. Last day of production could have been 11/24, could have been yesterday, could be next month.

Until we see a full transistion to Hr24s, I think it's premature to call either the HR22 or the HR23 discountinued at this time.


----------



## Beerstalker

Syzygy said:


> I see. The evidence is a new HR23 made on 11/23/2009. So it's not known whether the HR23 has been discontinued since then.
> 
> It has to do with whether the HR23 is going to be repurposed as TiVo's new product (which of course I'd hate to see happen).


As far as the TIVO goes it really wouldn't be much of a difference if it was based on the HR21, HR22, or HR23. All three of those units share pretty much the same hardware with the exception of the hard drives (HR21 has a smaller drive, HR22 and HR23 have the same size hard drive) and the wide band tuners that were used in the HR23.

The big question is does the Tivo use the hardware from the HR21-HR23 series, or the new HR24 series. As of right now nobody knows (or at least the people who do know aren't allowed to tell us).


----------



## grooves12

Beerstalker said:


> The big question is does the Tivo use the hardware from the HR21-HR23 series, or the new HR24 series. As of right now nobody knows (or at least the people who do know aren't allowed to tell us).


How different is the hardware of the HR24?? It uses the same codebase as the other HR2X series, right?? If so, then even IF Tivo was developing for the HR23, there should be no reason that the same software couldn't be run on the HR24, if not directly, than with minimal modifications.


----------



## Syzygy

grooves12 said:


> ... even IF Tivo was developing for the HR23, there should be no reason that the same software couldn't be run on the HR24, if not directly, than with minimal modifications.


I was aware of that. I just hope TiVo hasn't somehow got itself stuck into a contractual requirement to use HR21 or HR22 or HR23 hardware. And that DirecTV will allow TiVo to use the HR24 box.


----------



## Doug Brott

grooves12 said:


> How different is the hardware of the HR24?? It uses the same codebase as the other HR2X series, right?? If so, then even IF Tivo was developing for the HR23, there should be no reason that the same software couldn't be run on the HR24, if not directly, than with minimal modifications.


It's a different chipset .. Will that matter? :shrug:


----------



## bonscott87

grooves12 said:


> How different is the hardware of the HR24?? It uses the same codebase as the other HR2X series, right?? If so, then even IF Tivo was developing for the HR23, there should be no reason that the same software couldn't be run on the HR24, if not directly, than with minimal modifications.


Same thing could be said that since the HR21/22/23 is the same hardware as the Tivo HD that Tivo should be able to port with minimal modifications yet it's on continual delay. Each quarterly call the Tivo CEO says "it'll be out in 6 months" basically.


----------



## loudo

RobertE said:


> More fud. Great.
> 
> HR23s were still rolling of the production line in late Novemember.
> New HR22s & HR23s are still being sent out through the distribution channel.
> Tivo is late (behind schedule as always), so I seriously doubt that any significant amount of hardware is being sent their way.


Last month I was installing a home theater system in a home and they were also having a DirecTV DVR installation done, at the same time. The unit the tech installed was an HR20-700. So there are still some of those around. I am sure there are not any in production but they are still distributing them.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Syzygy said:


> I was aware of that. I just hope TiVo hasn't somehow got itself stuck into a contractual requirement to use HR21 or HR22 or HR23 hardware. And that DirecTV will allow TiVo to use the HR24 box.


Truly, no one here knows. But if they began development with an HR21, HR22, or HR23, moving to an HR24 might take a lot of work. Many of the chips are different.

I can only say this, I'll be extraordinarily surprised if something shows up in the next ten days, so Q1-10 is now done.


----------



## Jeremy W

Syzygy said:


> You're taking a very condescending tone.


I sure am. You and others constantly talk about how awesome Tivo is, but then you bash the HR23 hardware when it's exactly the same as the Tivo HD. It's ridiculous, and you Tivotees should be happy to get a Tivo on the HR23 platform.


----------



## RobertE

Ok, got the ancient camera working.

Here is the receiver sticker with the RID, SN & barcodes partially redacted.


----------



## sigma1914

Jeremy W said:


> I sure am. You and others constantly talk about how awesome Tivo is, but then you bash the HR23 hardware when it's exactly the same as the Tivo HD. It's ridiculous, and you Tivotees should be happy to get a Tivo on the HR23 platform.


Tivo can stay gone for all I care. Tivotees just stare at me dumbfounded when I tell them I have *5* Tivos fail on me in an 6 year period, but have had the same 2 HR20s going strong for about 3.5 years.


----------



## grooves12

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yup - that one's real for sure. It doesn't affect me either, and with MRV, it won't in the future either.
> 
> But I can understand how for some folks it is important.


Actually, I think MRV would make the issue MORE significant for some people. If they only have one DVR and have several people using a single DVR from different rooms, it would make the limit pop up more often.


----------



## Doug Brott

Saw this comment from DIRECTV on facebook today:


> John, the new Tivo box is still tentatively scheduled for the first half of 2010. More information will be posted here.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

grooves12 said:


> Actually, I think MRV would make the issue MORE significant for some people. If they only have one DVR and have several people using a single DVR from different rooms, it would make the limit pop up more often.


If you have 50 per DVR...I just don't see how that would be the case.


----------



## curt8403

Doug Brott said:


> Saw this comment from DIRECTV on facebook today:


since the first half is nearly half over, does that mean about 3 months? Holding my breath til I become a smurf.


----------



## RAD

Now wouldn't this be interesting, rumor that Dish is looking into buying Tivo, http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2010/03/24/tivo-rallies-on-dish-bid-rumor/ .

So if by some chance that really does happen I wonder what effect would that have on DirecTV/Tivo STB's?


----------



## Doug Brott

That would be an interesting turn of events .. Hmmmm.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I wouldn't be terribly surprised by it, since it seems Dish has exhausted a lot of other options. At that point you'd have to wonder if they would just buy TiVo and kill the hardware out of spite.


----------



## damondlt

RAD said:


> So if by some chance that really does happen I wonder what effect would that have on DirecTV/Tivo STB's?


I hope nothing.
I have a few Older Tivos that I'd like to keep on using. They work better then that R16 POC. The R10 is Much faster then th R16, My Hughes HDVR2 is as well, and I just rebuilt that one. So I hope nothing Dish Does effects the old Directv Tivos.


----------



## dpeters11

Stuart Sweet said:


> I wouldn't be terribly surprised by it, since it seems Dish has exhausted a lot of other options. At that point you'd have to wonder if they would just buy TiVo and kill the hardware out of spite.


But then they'd have the patents. The only reason DirecTV is not infringing is because they have a deal with Tivo, right? I'd think that deal would go out the window, or not be renewed, then DirecTV is in the position Dish is now.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The current agreements with TiVo don't expire until 2018. That would give DIRECTV plenty of time to re-engineer anything that would require the use of those shared patents. There's no reason to think those agreements would be nullified by a purchase of TiVo Inc.

Although I'm not deeply immersed in the Dish v. TiVo argument, it's my understanding that Dish was already able to re-engineer its newer DVRs so they didn't infringe on TiVo's patents. So it is possible.


----------



## dpeters11

Stuart Sweet said:


> The current agreements with TiVo don't expire until 2018. That would give DIRECTV plenty of time to re-engineer anything that would require the use of those shared patents. There's no reason to think those agreements would be nullified by a purchase of TiVo Inc.
> 
> Although I'm not deeply immersed in the Dish v. TiVo argument, it's my understanding that Dish was already able to re-engineer its newer DVRs so they didn't infringe on TiVo's patents. So it is possible.


Didn't realize the agreement went out that long. We might not be using DVRs (or at least as we know them) in eight years. Last I heard though, a judge ruled earlier this month that Dish's re-engineering wasn't sufficient.


----------



## P Smith

RAD said:


> Now wouldn't this be interesting, rumor that Dish is looking into buying Tivo, http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2010/03/24/tivo-rallies-on-dish-bid-rumor/ .
> 
> So if by some chance that really does happen I wonder what effect would that have on DirecTV/Tivo STB's?


He is "invented" the rumor from distant past when the litigation started and many of us rumored it. Yeah, big news, right.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

I can't help but thinking that DIRECTV could do a better job in the next 8 years if they needed to.


----------



## Doug Brott

Stuart Sweet said:


> The current agreements with TiVo don't expire until 2018. That would give DIRECTV plenty of time to re-engineer anything that would require the use of those shared patents. There's no reason to think those agreements would be nullified by a purchase of TiVo Inc.
> 
> Although I'm not deeply immersed in the Dish v. TiVo argument, it's my understanding that Dish was already able to re-engineer its newer DVRs so they didn't infringe on TiVo's patents. So it is possible.


Isn't that when the Patents expire?


----------



## jaywdetroit

I am going to make a prediction: DirecTV HD Tivo, August/September 2010


----------



## Sixto

jaywdetroit said:


> I am going to make a prediction: DirecTV HD Tivo, August/September 2010


9/3/2010 rings a bell.


----------



## P Smith

If dish will not capture tivo balls early, muuuhahhah !


----------



## Sixto

Engadget TiVo Premiere Review: http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> Engadget TiVo Premiere Review: http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/24/tivo-premiere-review/


Complete garbage! It can't even display menu options without significant lag. What a joke. I'd take an HR2x over that any day of the week.


----------



## Sixto

Jeremy W said:


> Complete garbage! It can't even display menu options without significant lag. What a joke. I'd take an HR2x over that any day of the week.


Yep: http://www.viddler.com/explore/engadget/videos/1239/0


----------



## Sixto

For those that prefer TiVo (which is fine), it may be a good thing that the new unit will use the old UI.


----------



## Jeremy W

Sixto said:


> For those that prefer TiVo (which is fine), it may be a good thing that the new unit will use the old UI.


It's also clear why they even preserved the old UI in the first place.


----------



## jal

Well, I sure hope Dish doesn't buy Tivo. I really do wonder whether this is the possible cause of the delay. And, perhaps Directv should buy Tivo instead.


----------



## Steve

Considering the hype Mr. Rogers was trying to generate prior to launch, the UI differences between the new top level screen and the less-trafficked areas like the Series Manager are embarrassing, if you ask me. I can't believe they rushed it out the door with significant portions of the SD GUI intact.


----------



## tonyd79

What do they expect? They are putting a lot of data up there and none of it is local.

What I find funny is that the guide has the exact same amount of data that my HD Tivo has. Great use of HD GUI there (or is it still SD).

Fail.


----------



## TheRatPatrol

If E* did buy Tivo, would that have any future affect on D* DVR's?


----------



## Ken_F

tonyd79 said:


> What do they expect? They are putting a lot of data up there and none of it is local.


I don't understand why they don't follow DirecTV's approach. DirecTV plans to download MBs and MBs of logos and graphics to the DVR hard drive and then load them into the UI from there. I wonder why TiVo doesn't do the same, rather than trying to grab them on-demand over the net.


----------



## bonscott87

tonyd79 said:


> What do they expect? They are putting a lot of data up there and none of it is local.
> 
> What I find funny is that the guide has the exact same amount of data that my HD Tivo has. Great use of HD GUI there (or is it still SD).
> 
> Fail.


The guide isn't HD. Only 2 (maybe 3) of all the screens in the UI have been converted to HD with the new GUI. All the rest are still the old classic UI! I'm floored that Tivo would release such drek.

You should see the official reviews of the Tivo Premier. They are all panning it as terrible, half baked, not done, etc. Especially after Tivo made such a huge deal of it.

1) It's new faster hardware with half the CPU power disabled due to "bugs"
2) 25% done (if that) new UI 
3) New UI is dog slow. Makes the slowest HR23 seem fast.

You should see the threads on the Tivo forum. Even the most diehard Tivo owners are canceling their pre-orders and panning Tivo. Tivo may have really screwed up here.

I think people around here should watch out what you wish for in this new DirecTivo. :nono2:

Luckily (I guess) they said the new DirecTV box will use the classic UI and that is now looking like a good thing. How sad.

And it took Tivo 2 years of development to bring forth a quarter done GUI. We all know Tivo is never on time with stuff but this is redonkulous. No wonder the new DirecTivo keeps getting delayed.


----------



## bonscott87

TheRatPatrol said:


> If E* did buy Tivo, would that have any future affect on D* DVR's?


My guess is that it would have no effect at all on the DirecTV DVRs. There are contracts in place. But it would certainly put another nail in the coffin of a possible new DirecTivo HD unit coming out. With E* owning Tivo, Tivo in effect is now the competition to DirecTV, Comcast and everyone else. I wouldn't think D* and others would want to use the competitions DVR at that point. But you never know I guess.


----------



## bonscott87

I found the actual language in their SEC filing pasted below. Basically it means that if Dish (or anyone else) where to buy Tivo or gain 50%+ control of Tivo, DirecTV has the right to terminate the agreement. I'm sure there is more to it then that but DirecTV would have that option. What that would mean in total is another question (like the no sue clause, etc.)



> 4.21 Change of Control. If TiVo or a Subsidiary of TiVo undergoes a Change of Control resulting in TiVo or a TiVo Subsidiary, directly or indirectly, being controlled by [*], TiVo shall provide DIRECTV with written notice of such a Change in Control (the "COC Notice"), and DIRECTV may elect to immediately terminate this Agreement (the "Option") by providing TiVo with written notice within [*] after receiving the COC Notice (the "Termination Notice"). Such termination shall be without liability to either party. If DIRECTV does not provide TiVo with the Termination Notice within ninety (90) days of receiving the COC Notice from TiVo, then the Option shall lapse.


Change of Control is defined as such:


> 1.1 "Change of Control" means any of the following: (a) the sale, conveyance, transfer, or disposition of all or substantially all of TiVo's assets to a third party, (b) the acquisition of TiVo by a third party (whether through a merger, acquisition, consolidation or other transaction or series of transactions) the consummation of which results in a third party becoming the beneficial owner of 50% or more of the outstanding equity interests or voting power in TiVo, (c) the merger or consolidation of TiVo with or into another corporation, other than, in the case of this clause (c), an acquisition or a merger or consolidation in which holders of shares of voting capital stock of TiVo immediately prior to the acquisition, merger or consolidation will have at least fifty (50) percent of the ownership of voting capital stock of the acquiring third party or the surviving corporation in such merger or consolidation, or transaction effected solely for purpose of changing the corporate domicile of TiVo, as the case may be, immediately after the merger or consolidation; or (d) any third party or group acquires fifty (50) percent or more of the capital stock or voting power or voting stock of TiVo or any rights entitling such third party or group to elect a majority of members of the board of directors of TiVo, either directly or indirectly


Found here: http://investor.tivo.com/phoenix.zh...tbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9NjAyMjE5MCZkb2M9Ng==


----------



## carl6

bonscott87 said:


> I found the actual language in their SEC filing pasted below. Basically it means that if Dish (or anyone else) where to buy Tivo or gain 50%+ control of Tivo, DirecTV has the right to terminate the agreement.


Reading that, it does not say the terms of the agreement terminate upon such transfer of control. In other words, if DirecTV does not elect to terminate the agreement, the terms would remain valid with the new party in control.

What was posted does not specifically say that, but it also does not say the terms of the agreement would stop.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> I sure am. You and others constantly talk about how awesome Tivo is, but then you bash the HR23 hardware when it's exactly the same as the Tivo HD. It's ridiculous, and you Tivotees should be happy to get a Tivo on the HR23 platform.


Until not long ago, I was not aware of the fact that the TiVoHD was using inferior hardware compared to the TiVo Series 3. tonyd79 was the first to bring that to my attention, with Steve (I think) explaining why that was. Though not the message that first brought that to my attention, read this from tonyd79:



tonyd79 said:


> Hahahaha.
> 
> I have a "current" Tivo in an HD Tivo. It is nowhere near as responsive as my old HR10.
> 
> Good luck hoping that a new DirecTV Tivo will solve your "problems."
> 
> BTW, my HD Tivo has rebooted and hung more than my HR boxes in the last two years. HD does funny things to DVRs.
> 
> I love reading these threads just to see how many people thing Tivo has it all solved. They do not. Their current software is buggy and slow and inconsistent and updates have pretty much trickled down to one a year.


Now, do you still wonder why Syzygy does not want a TiVo using the HR23 hardware?

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

grooves12 said:


> Actually, I think MRV would make the issue MORE significant for some people. If they only have one DVR and have several people using a single DVR from different rooms, it would make the limit pop up more often.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> If you have 50 per DVR...I just don't see how that would be the case.


Actually hdtvfan0001, I've previously stated the same scenario myself (multiple times), and I think the following scenario makes the issue something DirecTV REALLY needs to correct NOW! We'll use the new models for this scenario.

Imagine a household with a family of four. They have four receivers.... one in the living room, one in the parent's bedroom, and two in the kid's room. They have one H*R*24 DVR, and three H24 receivers. If all four people have only 10 Series Links, there won't be an issue. If they all have 13, there will be.

I would imagine that in many scenarios like the above, 50 might still be fine, but I imagine the amount of scenarios where it's not alright will probably increase as well.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sixto said:


> For those that prefer TiVo (which is fine), it may be a good thing that the new unit will use the old UI.


Regardless of what was said, I expect a new GUI, just not the Premiere GUI.

Sadly, I expect to see something similar to the ComcasTiVo. 

~Alan


----------



## RAD

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually hdtvfan0001, I've previously stated the same scenario myself (multiple times), and I think the following scenario makes the issue something DirecTV REALLY needs to correct NOW! We'll use the new models for this scenario.
> 
> Imagine a household with a family of four. They have four receivers.... one in the living room, one in the parent's bedroom, and two in the kid's room. They have one H*R*24 DVR, and three H24 receivers. If all four people have only 10 Series Links, there won't be an issue. If they all have 13, there will be.
> 
> I would imagine that in many scenarios like the above, 50 might still be fine, but I imagine the amount of scenarios where it's not alright will probably increase as well.
> 
> ~Alan


IMHO the bigger issue in this scenario is that the one HR2X can stream to only one client at a time.


----------



## bonscott87

carl6 said:


> Reading that, it does not say the terms of the agreement terminate upon such transfer of control. In other words, if DirecTV does not elect to terminate the agreement, the terms would remain valid with the new party in control.
> 
> What was posted does not specifically say that, but it also does not say the terms of the agreement would stop.


Yep, I actually think that is the "default". If Dish or even IBM were to buy Tivo nothing changes in the contract they have with DirecTV (and probably any other contract they have). BUT, DirecTV has an out should they wish to use it. Also in the contract is language that Tivo can also terminate the contract under various conditions and DishTivo could exercise that right as well or they could just plain terminate for no reason and then DirecTV would be entitled to various payments/refunds as noted in the filing and probably could sue for breach of contract.

All fun stuff!


----------



## bonscott87

RAD said:


> IMHO the bigger issue in this scenario is that the one HR2X can stream to only one client at a time.


The scenario by Alan is actually more for the upcoming Home Media Server or whatever they are calling it which would likely have more then 2 tuners and perhaps operate a bit more like the Uverse setup.

From what DirecTV has said in their conference calls, the HR24 setup is basically "the next step" to the whole home media box. A beta test if you will.


----------



## Alan Gordon

RAD said:


> Now wouldn't this be interesting, rumor that Dish is looking into buying Tivo, http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2010/03/24/tivo-rallies-on-dish-bid-rumor/


What'd really be funny is if Malone bought them before Charlie does... LOL!



Stuart Sweet said:


> I wouldn't be terribly surprised by it, since it seems Dish has exhausted a lot of other options. *At that point you'd have to wonder if they would just buy TiVo and kill the hardware out of spite.*


I wondered the same thing myself... 

Years ago, if Dish Network had had a TiVo option whenever I had to switch to the HR20, I probably would have jumped on it. Now, with Dish's DVR fee so high, I wouldn't even think about switching.

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

RAD said:


> IMHO the bigger issue in this scenario is that the one HR2X can stream to only one client at a time.





bonscott87 said:


> The scenario by Alan is actually more for the upcoming Home Media Server or whatever they are calling it which would likely have more then 2 tuners and perhaps operate a bit more like the Uverse setup.
> 
> From what DirecTV has said in their conference calls, the HR24 setup is basically "the next step" to the whole home media box. A beta test if you will.


Actually, the reason I stated the HR24 and H24 instead of the HMC, is because as I (currently) only have two receivers using MRV, I wasn't thinking about RAD's statement.

While the scenario RAD brought up is certainly a bigger issue, I don't think it negates my scenario either. The HMC is a different story though as we don't know what sort of restrictions it may or may not have.

~Alan


----------



## tonyd79

bonscott87 said:


> The guide isn't HD. Only 2 (maybe 3) of all the screens in the UI have been converted to HD with the new GUI. All the rest are still the old classic UI! I'm floored that Tivo would release such drek.


I am not. I stated here somewhere before. Tivo is not Tivo anymore. Just as we have seen changes that have not always been good with DirecTV, the same has happened at Tivo.

I have played with the beta version of the new gui in terms of the new searching capability and it is clunky, requires more clicks, slow and is obviously a hardware hog. Plus, I just don't like it. I don't want pictures of movies along the top when it has nothing to do with what I am looking for. And yet they did not implement a simple helpful thing like the ABC ability of the HR2x search. Yes, they have added a qwerty remote control to the Premiere line but that sort of locks me into their remote control (I never used the peanut, never will; I always use my self-programmed universal.)


----------



## gregjones

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, the reason I stated the HR24 and H24 instead of the HMC, is because as I (currently) only have two receivers using MRV, I wasn't thinking about RAD's statement.
> 
> While the scenario RAD brought up is certainly a bigger issue, I don't think it negates my scenario either. The HMC is a different story though as we don't know what sort of restrictions it may or may not have.
> 
> ~Alan


A considerable limiting factor will still be hard drive contention unless the design is more than just "more tuners." Writing 4 streams to disk is significantly less of a problem than reading multiple streams while writing multiple streams. Any way you slice it, a single hard drive cannot handle much more than its current load of three write streams (2 tuners and VOD) plus 2 read streams (viewing and MRV). Obviously, VOD will be given the lowest priority.

A well-designed HMC will have to take disk contention into account to be effective. Otherwise, multiple HR2x boxes would be preferable.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

Seems to me this thread is about the currently vaporous TiVo device, not the currently vaporous HMC


----------



## P Smith

Stuart Sweet said:


> Seems to me this thread is about the currently vaporous TiVo device, not the currently *vaporous HMC*


Looking into spooling FW I wouldn't say so - that HMC-30 based on Broadcom chip is updating periodically.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

The point was to drive discussion back to TiVo, not pick apart my phraseology. Please allow me to be more clear:

:backtotop


----------



## Ken_F

gregjones said:


> A considerable limiting factor will still be hard drive contention unless the design is more than just "more tuners." Writing 4 streams to disk is significantly less of a problem than reading multiple streams while writing multiple streams. Any way you slice it, a single hard drive cannot handle much more than its current load of three write streams (2 tuners and VOD) plus 2 read streams (viewing and MRV). Obviously, VOD will be given the lowest priority.


The BCM7400-based Moxi DVR can record three 19.4Mbps MPEG-2 streams while streaming two 19.4Mbps streams to Moxi extenders. Similar hardware is found in the TiVo Premiere, albeit without the third-tuner.

DirecTV's MPEG-4 HD streams are only 6-12Mbps, so they should be able to do at least that much with comparable hardware.


----------



## Lee L

I will have to say, I am much less hopeful about the new DirecTiVo after seeing the massively overhyped dissapointment of the Premeire. If they think that is reinventing the DVR, I have to wonder if they really have the ability to move these outside collaborations forward any more.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This thread will be replaced at the beginning of the quarter, just to remind you.


----------



## Steve

Lee L said:


> I will have to say, I am much less hopeful about the new DirecTiVo after seeing the massively overhyped dissapointment of the Premeire. If they think that is reinventing the DVR, I have to wonder if they really have the ability to move these outside collaborations forward any more.


Good point.

Add to that they seem to be catering a bit more to the networks, with ad-popups during FF's and no Premiere 30SKIP back-door code. I assume they're extending olive branches to the networks because they're now potential TiVo audience metrics data customers.


----------



## jaywdetroit

Lee L said:


> I will have to say, I am much less hopeful about the new DirecTiVo after seeing the massively overhyped dissapointment of the Premeire. If they think that is reinventing the DVR, I have to wonder if they really have the ability to move these outside collaborations forward any more.


A (non-csr) tivo employee recently stated to me, (in response to the question, what features can we expect on the DirecTV box?)

"The premier box is going to be our top offering, but the DirecTV HD box will be good too."

I took that to mean - don't expect much. He was FAR more excited about the Premier and not at all enthusiastic about the DirecTV box. (Though he was positive about it, and didn't seem to doubt its coming release.)


----------



## Stuart Sweet

That's consistent with their position on the Comcast TiVo box.


----------



## ATARI

Sounds like a box that only die-hard TiVo fans would want.

That ain't me.


----------



## oldfantom

ATARI said:


> Sounds like a box that only die-hard TiVo fans would want.
> 
> That ain't me.


depends, if the box does MRV and, by extension, SWM + fixes some of my other HR issues (50 series link) I might choose Tivo over HR box on an upgrade. As time goes on and my personal situations change, I am becoming less and less likely to make any move. At a similar price point with the two minimum functions above, I would go Tivo.


----------



## gregjones

Ken_F said:


> The BCM7400-based Moxi DVR can record three 19.4Mbps MPEG-2 streams while streaming two 19.4Mbps streams to Moxi extenders. Similar hardware is found in the TiVo Premiere, albeit without the third-tuner.
> 
> DirecTV's MPEG-4 HD streams are only 6-12Mbps, so they should be able to do at least that much with comparable hardware.


The bandwidth is not the major factor here. You refer to a third tuner but writing is easier than reading. No process cares where you write an incoming stream (unless it is being output, in which case it already is a read stream). The more important factor is how to read multiple streams from different areas on the disk and not encounter latency.

In other words, writing 16 streams is still probably simpler than reading 8streams from different parts of the disk without encountering a delay. This is easily circumvented on small files by caching. With video files, the file size and real-time nature of them makes caching a less effective solution.

This is not new ground. Ask any database administrator worth anything and they will tell you that they consider the physical disk contention between tables, indexes and system usage.


----------



## P Smith

Sorta, just keep in mind the disk is two types of storage: a few small files with rare or occasional access (logs, tables) and huge video [TS] files with 16 MB allocation units.


----------



## Skyboss

Alan Gordon said:


> Imagine a household with a family of four. They have four receivers.... one in the living room, one in the parent's bedroom, and two in the kid's room. They have one H*R*24 DVR, and three H24 receivers. If all four people have only 10 Series Links, there won't be an issue. If they all have 13, there will be.
> 
> ~Alan


Two recording options won't work for me now - I need three programs at once. I'd need to HR units anyway. Solves the issue you are refering to as well.

Maybe they need to think about a DVR with 4 to 8 tuners, no series limit and a terrabyte drive. Makes too much sense though.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Skyboss said:


> Two recording options won't work for me now - I need three programs at once. I'd need to HR units anyway. Solves the issue you are refering to as well.


I can think of multiple nights when I need three programs recording at once as well... a couple of nights per week when four would be neccessary if I had access to The CW in HD (make it happen DirecTV!)... but that's me!

I can think of multiple people who could get by with one tuner, and more who can get by with just two. I'm not sure I know anyone (other than myself) who needs more than two.

MRV is *NOT* a solution to the 50 Series Link limit. It might be considered a workaround, but it is *NOT* a solution.

~Alan


----------



## tonyd79

Alan Gordon said:


> I can think of multiple people who could get by with one tuner, and more who can get by with just two. I'm not sure I know anyone (other than myself) who needs more than two.


Pleased to meet ya. Now you know another. Biggest reason why I have so many DVRs. I have had many times that I need more than 2 tuners to record. And often need a third just for live viewing (sports while comedies/dramas/movies/documentaries are recording).

One of my problems with the master/slave idea with whole house MRV unless there are more than 2 tuners in the master.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Pleased to meet ya. Now you know another. Biggest reason why I have so many DVRs. I have had many times that I need more than 2 tuners to record. And often need a third just for live viewing (sports while comedies/dramas/movies/documentaries are recording).
> 
> One of my problems with the master/slave idea with whole house MRV unless there are more than 2 tuners in the master.


Ya. The whole home DVR would need at least 4 tuners, based on what the Mrs. and I record. I assume in the whole home scenario that the clients can still be diskless H's, so there will always be a live tuner available.


----------



## harsh

gregjones said:


> In other words, writing 16 streams is still probably simpler than reading 8streams from different parts of the disk without encountering a delay.


Many security DVRs can handle 16 cameras without too much stress and can generate and upload a 16 channel mosaic at the same time. It is not much more than a matter of scale.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

First of all I'm not sure how that applies to a device like a DIRECTV receiver. Security cameras take low-res, low-bandwidth, unencrypted SD video, as opposed to full-resolution MPEG4 encrypted HD video. 

Second of all no security camera is made by TiVo. I think that if we have seen anything in the last week it is that TiVo seems unable to create a new device for its core market without serious speed issues; I don't know that incorporating security camera technology is the way to address this.


----------



## sigma1914

harsh said:


> Many security DVRs can handle 16 cameras without too much stress and can generate and upload a 16 channel mosaic at the same time. It is not much more than a matter of scale.


Have you ever seen a security camera picture of a suspect that was clear or didn't skip a bunch of frames? 

HD DVRs and security video is a ridiculous comparison.


----------



## gregjones

harsh said:


> Many security DVRs can handle 16 cameras without too much stress and can generate and upload a 16 channel mosaic at the same time. It is not much more than a matter of scale.


It is easy to take sixteen low resolution, low framerate feeds, build one composite and write it to disk. The problem is reading from sixteen different places on the disk simultaneously the amount of data required for HD streams.


----------



## harsh

The lesson to be learned here is that you can't magically overcome all hardware deficiencies with software (a hard lesson illustrated by the old Macintosh computers). On the other hand, if you throw proper hardware at a problem, the solution can be a simple matter of scale.

TiVo software probably isn't going to be the answer to addressing all of the limitations the HR2x series. It may nail a few of the key philosophical issues and that's what keeps the interest up.


----------



## Stuart Sweet

This is not the right place to discuss what you perceive to be the limitations of the HR2x series, nor is the right place to discuss the rather interesting evolution of the Macintosh. However, your point is taken, if I understand it properly; that you do not believe that the developers at TiVo Inc. are using fast enough hardware.


----------



## leftheaded

currently, i'm a dish subscriber, but considering a switch to directv. if i go with the current promotion (whatever it is idk) what are the odds that i'd be able to change to a tivo box when its offered?


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## spartanstew

I doubt you'd be able to swap out.


----------



## Alan Gordon

tonyd79 said:


> Pleased to meet ya. Now you know another.


I'm sorry... I meant to specify that I meant people I know "offline"... and apparently forgot to...

Obviously, I know others on here who fall into the same category as me, but then some of us are "abnormal"!   :grin:

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

leftheaded said:


> currently, i'm a dish subscriber, but considering a switch to directv. if i go with the current promotion (whatever it is idk) what are the odds that i'd be able to change to a tivo box when its offered?





spartanstew said:


> I doubt you'd be able to swap out.


This is a question I've wondered myself.

Since there will apparently be an extra charge for the TiVo service, I have wondered myself if there will be an option to "swap" for a TiVo-capable box.

~Alan


----------



## RobertE

Stuart Sweet said:


> This is not the right place to discuss what you perceive to be the limitations of the HR2x series, nor is the right place to discuss the rather interesting evolution of the Macintosh. However, your point is taken, if I understand it properly; that you do not believe that the developers at TiVo Inc. are using fast enough hardware.


I think TiVo Inc. isn't using fast enough developers for the hardware. :lol:


----------



## Mike Bertelson

I kind of think you'll be able to. It's going to be an extra charge, presumably, and I would think that TiVo isn’t going to wait for whatever percentage of new installs goes to them to build a customer base. I’ll bet that there will be a way to upgrade...just a guess but from a business stand point it makes sense.

Mike


----------



## Lord Vader

Alan Gordon said:


> I can think of multiple people who could get by with one tuner, and more who can get by with just two. I'm not sure I know anyone (other than myself) who needs more than two.


On my primary HDTV, I've got *three *HD DVRs connected (and another in the master BR, and more...). Sometimes all three of them are recording something at the same time. Trouble is, I have NO time to watch this stuff. Maybe I'll spend part of my summer break (I'm a teacher) catching up on 15 months' worth of recordings. :lol:


----------



## harsh

Stuart Sweet said:


> This is not the right place to discuss what you perceive to be the limitations of the HR2x series, nor is the right place to discuss the rather interesting evolution of the Macintosh.


As the HR2x is still thought to be the hardware basis of the new DIRECTiVo, the "official" thread for the DIRECTiVo would seem to be uniquely the right place to discuss both hardware and software aspects of the unit and how each impacts the other.


> However, your point is taken, if I understand it properly; that you do not believe that the developers at TiVo Inc. are using fast enough hardware.


They're using what DIRECTV gave them and it is up to TiVo to make what they can work. They only have control over the software.

I believe that TiVo is relatively good at managing expectations.


----------



## tonyd79

harsh said:


> I believe that TiVo is relatively good at managing expectations.


Then you have no idea what is going on with the Premiere. They built up huge expectations to deliver very little.

Or what happened with the Comcast Tivo. Again. Pretty much DOA.

Tivo is pretty much like the one hit wonder or the author who only has one book in them. They had a great idea more than a decade ago. Not much since.


----------



## wingrider01

Alan Gordon said:


> This is a question I've wondered myself.
> 
> Since there will apparently be an extra charge for the TiVo service, I have wondered myself if there will be an option to "swap" for a TiVo-capable box.
> 
> ~Alan


would guess so, for a price and a commitment


----------



## Syzygy

Alan Gordon said:


> Regardless of what was said, I expect a new GUI, just not the Premiere GUI.
> 
> Sadly, I expect to see something similar to the ComcasTiVo.


First, many screens in the Premiere GUI (those that haven't been replaced by Flash-based screens) look like those in the classic GUI. Second, the ComcasTiVo GUI also looks like the classic GUI. (I'm ignoring the PiG; I'd like to suppress it.)

Finally, I don't hate the classic TiVo GUI. While I would appreciate a hi-def GUI, or at least a new font where 'I' and 'l' (lowercase L) don't look exactly the same, TiVo's classic GUI is acceptable to me.

What would *not* be acceptable to me is a Search that forces me to wade through dozens of results for Channels I Don't Get and Channels I Don't Want in order to see the few desired results. And of course, like everyone else, I'm expecting there to be no arbitrary limit on Season Passes.


----------



## tonyd79

Syzygy said:


> What would *not* be acceptable to me is a Search that forces me to wade through dozens of results for Channels I Don't Get and Channels I Don't Want in order to see the few desired results.


Oops. Guess you haven't seen the new Tivo Search that searches the internet as well as channels you get. Want Amazon on that? How about You Tube?


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> Oops. Guess you haven't seen the new Tivo Search that searches the internet as well as channels you get. Want Amazon on that? How about You Tube?


I'm not a TiVo Premier fan, but in all fairness, if you check out #10 here, it appears you _can_ configure what outside content sources you want included in search results.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> As the HR2x is still thought to be the hardware basis of the new DIRECTiVo, the "official" thread for the DIRECTiVo would seem to be uniquely the right place to discuss both hardware and software aspects of the unit and how each impacts the other.


I think even YOU can agree that HR2x software does not equal TiVo software. This is the point Stuart was making .. Let's not go down the path of talking about the HR2x (a.k.a. DIRECTV) software here. This is not the place for that and has been rehashed over and over (yes, that is a redundant statement).



> They're using what DIRECTV gave them and it is up to TiVo to make what they can work. They only have control over the software.
> 
> I believe that TiVo is relatively good at managing expectations.


Yes, it is TiVo's responsibility to create the software .. As for managing expectations. Are you serious?

Right now people expected the TiVo Premier to be the best TiVo ever .. It comes out and even the most devoted TiVo fans are panning it. The expected awesome and got a lump of coal.

The DIRECTV TiVo was expected in late 2009 .. At a MINIMUM, it was expected to be shown @ CES2010 .. :shrug: not there. There always seems to be a consistent "in 6 months" mantra now. I've heard mid 2010, I've heard late 2010 and what some of us (skeptical at the point) folks are saying is early 2011.

One thing TiVo is doing is extending their reputation for setting the wrong expectations. If you call lying about everything "managing exceptions" then maybe, but they are not even close when it comes to product announcements. I think over the years they have done an exceptionally BAD job at managing expectations.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> I'm not a TiVo Premier fan, but in all fairness, if you check out #10 here, it appears you _can_ configure what outside content sources you want included in search results.


Not configurable in the Tivo Search version (it was beta, of course) on the Tivo HD. I am not talking about demoware, but what I have actually used on my Tivo.

And, of course, with both the HD and the Premiere, you have to wade through ads in everything and ignore a bunch of pictures along the top that you don't care about.

Sorry, I just get worked up when Tivo fans say their world will be perfect with Tivo. Far from it.


----------



## Steve

tonyd79 said:


> [...] Sorry, I just get worked up when Tivo fans say their world will be perfect with Tivo. Far from it.


I hear ya. Folks complain about the HR "50 limit" which _can_ be worked-around. What will the TiVo work-arounds be for no (Premiere) 30SKIP and ad pop-ups during FF's? If both those are the case on the new DirecTiVo, they'll be much more annoying, because they'll be in my face _every_ time I play back a recording.


----------



## tonyd79

Steve said:


> I hear ya. Folks complain about the HR "50 limit" which _can_ be worked-around. What will the TiVo work-arounds be for no (Premiere) 30SKIP and ad pop-ups during FF's? If both those are the case on the new DirecTiVo, they'll be much more annoying, because they'll be in my face _every_ time I play back a recording.


Don't get me wrong. I don't mind my HD Tivo. Far better than the cable box it replaced. But I prefer my HR2x's for just about everything. It is just the denial that Tivo is not the end all that gets me. It is a good box and preferences are preferences. But how anyone can claim Tivo will be their savior with DirecTV when Tivo is no longer Tivo and has been underdelivering for years.


----------



## David MacLeod

I would not be surprised to see this canceled.
I would be more surprised to see it come to fruition.


----------



## Syzygy

Steve said:


> I hear ya. Folks complain about the HR "50 limit" which *can *be worked-around. What will the TiVo work-arounds be for no (Premiere) 30SKIP and ad pop-ups during FF's? If both those are the case on the new DirecTiVo, they'll be much more annoying, because they'll be in my face _every_ time I play back a recording.


Steve, you introduced me and others to the combo-keyword-autorecord workaround for the 50-SL limit, and I'm happy to have *some* way around the limit... But still, no one can be happy with the resulting problems: Groups in the Playlist that make little sense, with headings whose last keyword is invisible, and no good way to ungroup the shows; all reruns getting recorded even though you specify FRO - a bug that appeared last September and seems to be here to stay.

These irritations, coupled with the well-documented search problems, are much more annoying to me than the Premiere's ad pop-ups during Pause and FF would be *if* they showed up on the new DirecTiVo. And I'm confident that there will be a TiVo Premiere workaround equivalent to Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select or 30SKIP.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Steve, you introduced me and others to the combo-keyword-autorecord workaround for the 50-SL limit, and I'm happy to have *some* way around the limit... But still, no one can be happy with the resulting problems: Groups in the Playlist that make little sense, with headings whose last keyword is invisible, and no good way to ungroup the shows; all reruns getting recorded even though you specify FRO - a bug that appeared last September and seems to be here to stay. [...]


Probably not the thread for this, but I hear ya about the deficiencies of the AUTORECORD work-around, Frank. In fact, since streaming MRV became an option, it has replaced AUTORECORD as my 50-limit work-around.

With the unified playlist, it's now almost completely transparent from which box I'm watching a recording, so I just split my recordings between two HR's which effectively gives me 4 tuners and 100 SL's. And by keeping all the CBS, NBC, USA, FXHD shows on one box and FOX, ABC, AMC, TNT on the other, I enjoy the added advantage of fully auto-padding both ends of each show. I found that using 2 networked HR's like this makes the need for a feature like TiVo's "overlap protection" moot as well.


----------



## Syzygy

Glad to hear you no longer have to use combo-keyword-autorecords, Steve. I'll say no more on this off-track subject.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Syzygy said:


> First, many screens in the Premiere GUI (those that haven't been replaced by Flash-based screens) look like those in the classic GUI. Second, the ComcasTiVo GUI also looks like the classic GUI. (I'm ignoring the PiG; I'd like to suppress it.)


THERE are MULTIPLE instances of differences in the ComcasTiVo versus previous DirecTiVos and stand-alone units... not just the PiG/PiL/PiM.



Doug Brott said:


> Yes, it is TiVo's responsibility to create the software .. As for managing expectations. Are you serious?


I was curious as to whether or not he accidentally ate some brownies he shouldn't have... 



tonyd79 said:


> And, of course, with both the HD and the Premiere, you have to wade through ads in everything and ignore a bunch of pictures along the top that you don't care about.


Maybe it's because I only use my TiVo Series 3 with OTA, but I don't have a problem with ads.

As for the pictures, not a design choice I'd make GUI wide like TiVo has done with the Premiere, but I like them in TiVo Search.



tonyd79 said:


> Sorry, I just get worked up when Tivo fans say their world will be perfect with Tivo. Far from it.


I always get worked up when I'm told there's a workaround to something! 



Steve said:


> Folks complain about the HR "50 limit" which _can_ be worked-around.


Like the above! 



tonyd79 said:


> What will the TiVo work-arounds be for no (Premiere) 30SKIP and ad pop-ups during FF's? If both those are the case on the new DirecTiVo, they'll be much more annoying, because they'll be in my face _every_ time I play back a recording.


Personally, I don't use 30SKIP... as I like to see what I would be skipping past. For instance, I might see a commercial for a new show premiering, or another show returning midseason, or from hiatus... which I have deleted from my Series Links to make room for others. There are other reasons too... one of which is if I'm watching OTA, I sometimes like to see the commercials for the 11:00 news to hear any late-breaking news. Though I don't use it, I would come near using DirecTV's 30SLIP before I'd use 30SKIP.

As for ads, like I said, maybe it's because I'm OTA only, but the majority of the time I get pop-ups are for when they are advertising an upcoming episode of a show, or a premiere of a new one and it asks you if you want to record the episode. I have seen this feature on the older DirecTiVo models, and quite frankly, I like this feature. Once in a blue moon, I'll get a pop-up for something else, but for me, it's extremely rare, and doesn't bother me in the least.

~Alan


----------



## Steve

steve said:


> Probably not the thread for this, but I hear ya about the deficiencies of the AUTORECORD work-around, Frank. In fact, since streaming MRV became an option, it has replaced AUTORECORD as my 50-limit work-around.
> 
> With the unified playlist, it's now almost completely transparent from which box I'm watching a recording, so I just split my recordings between two HR's which effectively gives me 4 tuners and 100 SL's. And by keeping all the CBS, NBC, USA, FXHD shows on one box and FOX, ABC, AMC, TNT on the other, I enjoy the added advantage of fully auto-padding both ends of each show. I found that using 2 networked HR's like this makes the need for a feature like TiVo's "overlap protection" moot as well.





Alan Gordon said:


> I always get worked up when I'm told there's a workaround to something!


Actually "workaround" is a misnomer for what I described above. Instead, I should have called it my "preferred method". 

I say this because even if there were no 50-limit, thanks to MRV and the UPL, I'd still spread my recordings over two HR's to take advantage of auto-padding, or to have an extra tuner or 2 available for the 2-3 time slots per week we need this.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> Actually "workaround" is a misnomer for what I described above. In this case, I'd call it my "preferred method".


I was mainly just messing with tonyd79... and only singled you out because you were convenient! 



Steve said:


> I say this because even if there were no 50-limit, thanks to MRV and the UPL, I'd still spread my recordings over two HR's to take advantage of auto-padding, or to have an extra tuner or 2 available for the 2-3 time slots per week we need this.


I have some recordings spread out as well, but again, to me this is something of a workaround. I want a solution, not a workaround.

Not everyone will have MRV to be able to spread recordings around...

*On a different subject, I do agree that any expectations for the new DirecTiVo should be taken with a grain of salt.

As I've stated before, even with the stated "classic" interface being used, I believe we'll see an altered "classic" interface (ala the ComcasTiVo), and who knows what DirecTV features will be included with the unit, what TiVo features will be included with the new unit, and of course, what TiVo features will be restricted with the new unit. At this point of time, the only thing we know will be included is TiVo KidZone and possibly Swivel Search...

However, I do feel pretty good that we will end up with the majority of the TiVo features previously available on (un-modified) DirecTiVos.*

~Alan


----------



## ejjames

At this point, I would accept a tivo with MPEG-4 capabilities. With this extended wait, however, we should be getting much more. My wife still uses 2 10-250's. To her they are very intuitive. Keeping my wife happy is important


----------



## am7crew

$100.00 this box never gets created/released.


----------



## Syzygy

Thanks, sucka! I'll take that bet.


----------



## tonyd79

ejjames said:


> At this point, I would accept a tivo with MPEG-4 capabilities. With this extended wait, however, we should be getting much more. My wife still uses 2 10-250's. To her they are very intuitive. Keeping my wife happy is important


Uh-oh. She may not think the new Tivo is intuitive. Or maybe she will think all DVRs are intuitive.


----------



## Steve

Syzygy said:


> Thanks, sucka! I'll take that bet.


Ya. After all the public pronouncements, the latest back in February, Mr. Rogers would have a bit of explaining to do to the SEC if they pulled the plug at this late date.


----------



## Jeremy W

Steve said:


> Ya. After all the public pronouncements, the latest back in February, Mr. Rogers would have a bit of explaining to do to the SEC if they pulled the plug at this late date.


Not really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-looking_statement


----------



## JTWestside

Doug Brott said:


> One thing *DIRECTV* is doing is extending their reputation for setting the wrong expectations. If you call lying about everything "managing exceptions" then maybe, but they are not even close when it comes to *HD Channels/products/pricing/ pretty much anything else* announcements. I think over the years they have done an exceptionally BAD job at managing expectations.


 _fixed this for you_

This was only done to make a point.

/TiVo haters gonna hate
//DIRECTV Loyalist on this site would defend DIRECTV for doing the exact same thing. _"Oh, well DIRECTV said it would be after the second Tuesday of the winter equinox ... not exactly on it ... blah blah blah ..." _


----------



## Doug Brott

JTWestside said:


> _fixed this for you_
> 
> This was only done to make a point.
> 
> /TiVo haters gonna hate
> //DIRECTV Loyalist on this site would defend DIRECTV for doing the exact same thing. _"Oh, well DIRECTV said it would be after the second Tuesday of the winter equinox ... not exactly on it ... blah blah blah ..." _


Interesting you should say that because my comments had ZERO to do with DIRECTV. Can you even show me one time when TiVo met their own announced times? Once in the history of TiVo have they actually done what they said they were going to do? Perhaps there is one, but honestly nothing is ringing a bell for me.

My point was that harsh said TiVo did a good job of managing expectations .. I was simply pointing out that that couldn't be farther from the truth.

DIRECTV wasn't even REMOTELY on my mind with those comments ....


----------



## hancox

You missed his point. He was pointing out that D* would get much more leeway on such a SNAFU here, and he's likely right (how's that ESPNU-HD rollout for tomorrow coming?)


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> You missed his point. He was pointing out that D* would get much more leeway on such a SNAFU here, and he's likely right (how's that ESPNU-HD rollout for tomorrow coming?)


You do realize that this thread is about the TiVo and not about DIRECTV missing a target. So the defense of TiVo is "Well, DIRECTV isn't perfect?"

I didn't miss the point .. I'm saying the point is irrelevant to the topic at hand.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> You do realize that this thread is about the TiVo and not about DIRECTV missing a target. So the defense of TiVo is "Well, DIRECTV isn't perfect?"
> 
> I didn't miss the point .. I'm saying the point is irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Pffft. Do you realize that his thread is about a Tivo on DirecTV, right? And, as far as I'm concerned, both parties are at fault for a late delivery, unless publicized otherwise.

His point is 100% relevant - neither party here is particularly stellar right now at managing expectations, but only one side of this dance seems to be getting heat here. Not saying who is right, but it's reasonable to note it.


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> I'm saying the point is irrelevant to the topic at hand.


In that managing expectations is substantially relative to the other players in the market space (think HD channel counts), I think it is more relevant than you're allowing.

If the new DIRECTiVo turns out to be little more than an MPEG4 HR10 features-wise, it will sting both DIRECTV and TiVo.


----------



## Doug Brott

harsh said:


> In that managing expectations is substantially relative to the other players in the market space (think HD channel counts), I think it is more relevant than you're allowing.
> 
> If the new DIRECTiVo turns out to be little more than an MPEG4 HR10 features-wise, it will sting both DIRECTV and TiVo.


OK .. then how about this .. DIRECTV is not perfect .. They make mistakes. In fact, I'm pretty sure that their announcement about ESPNU-HD being available by 3/31 will turn out to be incorrect.

As for the DIRECTV TiVo hurting DIRECTV .. I'm not sure how. DIRECTV benefits from people that want DIRECTV service - regardless of receiver. DIRECTV continues to add customers (net) despite the fact that there has never been a DIRECTV TiVo that supports MPEG4 .. TiVo is the only one that may be feeling any sting, and I have to wonder how bad that sting really is since they continue to delay.

Honestly, I think DIRECTV doesn't really care one way or the other .. If the DIRECTV TiVo doesn't come out .. :shrug: .. If it does come out .. :shrug:


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> His point is 100% relevant - neither party here is particularly stellar right now at managing expectations, but only one side of this dance seems to be getting heat here. Not saying who is right, but it's reasonable to note it.


That is because the ball is in TiVo's court .. All they have to do is finish up the software .. It's going to be on DIRECTV's hardware and regardless of whether it's the HR20, HR21, HR22, HR23 or HR24 .. TiVo has the hardware for some time.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> That is because the ball is in TiVo's court .. All they have to do is finish up the software .. It's going to be on DIRECTV's hardware and regardless of whether it's the HR20, HR21, HR22, HR23 or HR24 .. TiVo has the hardware for some time.


I tend to agree, but this could easily be flipped.

Tivo has been out, and live, with their standalones on the same basic platform forever now. The difference is with the carrier, mostly. I still think there is some blame on D*'s end here.


----------



## gregjones

hancox said:


> I tend to agree, but this could easily be flipped.
> 
> Tivo has been out, and live, with their standalones on the same basic platform forever now. The difference is with the carrier, mostly. I still think there is some blame on D*'s end here.


And that is what you are ignoring. If TiVo were only late when dealing with DirecTV, this would be a very well-appreciated point. But TiVo has a history of being late whenever they collaborate. They also have a pretty good history of being late when they work alone.

I have owned TiVos. They were great products. But ignoring the lateness of their entire product line isn't helping them.


----------



## Syzygy

harsh said:


> If the new DIRECTiVo turns out to be little more than an MPEG4 HR10, features-wise, it will sting both DIRECTV and TiVo.


Maybe, in your eyes. And the sting might be felt more by TiVo than by DirecTV (who IMO don't give a rat's ass about what you or I think).

I just wanna say that I'd be perfectly happy with an MPEG-4 HR10 with no new features - as long as it has all of the old features intact. Especially the feature where you can search *only* the channels you like, get *all* possible results over the next 11 days, and not have your perusal of the results list get interrupted by unnecessary refreshes.

(Not to forget, of course, those unlimited Season Passes.)


----------



## bonscott87

gregjones said:


> And that is what you are ignoring. If TiVo were only late when dealing with DirecTV, this would be a very well-appreciated point. But TiVo has a history of being late whenever they collaborate. They also have a pretty good history of being late when they work alone.
> 
> I have owned TiVos. They were great products. But ignoring the lateness of their entire product line isn't helping them.


Yep, this is the point, they are late with everything and can't manage expectations at all. Let's review, shall we for hancox...

1) Comcast Tivo. Was what, 2 years late and *still* to this day confined to small parts of the Comcast system. Basically to most Comcast customers it still doesn't exist some 5 years after announcement.

2) Cox Tivo. At least 2 years late and still doesn't exist.

3) New DirecTivo HD been delayed at least twice now with no end in sight just yet.

4) Tivo's own new box. Made a *huge* deal about how they were changing the world a month ago and all that for 2 modified screens in the GUI (rest have remained unchanged) and dreadfully slow. Ouch.

5) HR10-250 was late by a year I believe. Maybe only 6 months, I forget.

I could go on but I won't.


----------



## Nicholsen

Syzygy said:


> Maybe, in your eyes. And the sting might be felt more by TiVo than by DirecTV (who IMO don't give a rat's ass about what you or I think).
> 
> I just wanna say that I'd be perfectly happy with an MPEG-4 HR10 with no new features - as long as it has all of the old features intact. Especially the feature where you can search *only* the channels you like, get *all* possible results over the next 11 days, and not have your perusal of the results list get interrupted by unnecessary refreshes.
> 
> (Not to forget, of course, those unlimited Season Passes.)


+1

My HR21 dropped the buffer while I put it on hold so I could do a long business call during the second game of the NCAAs on Sunday. It decided that once the post-game show game on, you shouldn't have any need to go back to the "prior" program (i.e., the game). Fortunately the game ran late, so I got see at least the last 4 minutes of the game. I was not a happy camper!

My HR10-250 continues to run fine. Even better, there are no new bugs being introduced from the constant software upgrade cycles. I am very tempted to pick up a spare.

I would be very happy with an HR10-250 that could do MPEG4. I don't need whistles or bells, or the not so smart search on the HRs. What I would like is a basic, reliable DVR that can do HD in MPEG4.

I agree that it appears no one at DirecTV is listening to the user base.


----------



## Nicholsen

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, this is the point, they are late with everything and can't manage expectations at all. Let's review, shall we for hancox...
> 
> 1) Comcast Tivo. Was what, 2 years late and *still* to this day confined to small parts of the Comcast system. Basically to most Comcast customers it still doesn't exist some 5 years after announcement.
> 
> 2) Cox Tivo. At least 2 years late and still doesn't exist.
> 
> 3) New DirecTivo HD been delayed at least twice now with no end in sight just yet.
> 
> 4) Tivo's own new box. Made a *huge* deal about how they were changing the world a month ago and all that for 2 modified screens in the GUI (rest have remained unchanged) and dreadfully slow. Ouch.
> 
> 5) HR10-250 was late by a year I believe. Maybe only 6 months, I forget.
> 
> I could go on but I won't.


I guess the only thing worse than being slow is releasing buggy software and patching it for years while the users users suffer.

I only hope the new DirecTV Tivo box is as good as my HR10-250.


----------



## Doug Brott

Nicholsen said:


> I only hope the new DirecTV Tivo box is as good as my HR10-250.


I hope that it is as well, but you've gotta admit, the TiVo Premier isn't really helping in that department.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Nicholsen said:


> I only hope the new DirecTV Tivo box is as good as my HR10-250.





Doug Brott said:


> I hope that it is as well, but you've gotta admit, the TiVo Premier isn't really helping in that department.


Admittedly, I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the TiVo Premiere, but other than a really bone-head move of not caching several GUI graphics causing certain functions to be slower, I really haven't heard of that many issues with the Premiere.

I'd like to buy a TiVo Premiere later this year, but I intend on waiting until a sale.

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

Alan Gordon said:


> other than a really bone-head move of not caching several GUI graphics causing certain functions to be slower, I really haven't heard of that many issues with the Premiere.


It's not just graphics, it's _everything_. Including text.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> It's not just graphics, it's _everything_. Including text.


From the videos I've seen, it looks like the TEXT *ARE* GRAPHICS.

Ironically, if you look at the videos showing TiVo's classic GUI screens in action, they appear to have received the same speed boost over previous TiVo units as Doug's video for the HR24 showed over the previous HR2x models.

~Alan


----------



## JoeTheDragon

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, this is the point, they are late with everything and can't manage expectations at all. Let's review, shall we for hancox...
> 
> 1) Comcast Tivo. Was what, 2 years late and *still* to this day confined to small parts of the Comcast system. Basically to most Comcast customers it still doesn't exist some 5 years after announcement.
> 
> 2) Cox Tivo. At least 2 years late and still doesn't exist.
> 
> 3) New DirecTivo HD been delayed at least twice now with no end in sight just yet.
> 
> 4) Tivo's own new box. Made a *huge* deal about how they were changing the world a month ago and all that for 2 modified screens in the GUI (rest have remained unchanged) and dreadfully slow. Ouch.
> 
> 5) HR10-250 was late by a year I believe. Maybe only 6 months, I forget.
> 
> I could go on but I won't.


4A. LACK OF TRU2WAY in the new TIVO nice way miss out of what is needed for people who want SDV with out having to messing with sdv tuning adapters and for cable VOD and PPV.

there is lot of free VOD you will miss out on.


----------



## Alan Gordon

JoeTheDragon said:


> 4A. LACK OF TRU2WAY in the new TIVO nice way miss out of what is needed for people who want SDV with out having to messing with sdv tuning adapters and for cable VOD and PPV.
> 
> there is lot of free VOD you will miss out on.


While bonscott87 made several good points, I'm not sure it's fair to blame TiVo for the omission of Tru2Way.

~Alan


----------



## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Maybe, in your eyes. And the sting might be felt more by TiVo than by DirecTV (who IMO don't give a rat's ass about what you or I think).
> 
> I just wanna say that I'd be perfectly happy with an MPEG-4 HR10 with no new features - as long as it has all of the old features intact. Especially the feature where you can search *only* the channels you like, get *all* possible results over the next 11 days, and not have your perusal of the results list get interrupted by unnecessary refreshes.
> 
> (Not to forget, of course, those unlimited Season Passes.)


Don;t forget the wonderful thing Tivo did for you on that channel list though.. It added new channels all the time, usually infomercial channels and such, the same ones, over and over....

Tivo had its strong suits, but don;t think it didn't have its issues too..

Tivo is great for some, and bad for others... Which is why I still say its great to have 2 options for customers, and Directv is doing the right thing bring Tivo back.. someday... maybe..


----------



## inkahauts

Alan Gordon said:


> I was mainly just messing with tonyd79... and only singled you out because you were convenient!
> 
> I have some recordings spread out as well, but again, to me this is something of a workaround. I want a solution, not a workaround.
> 
> ~Alan


I actually think MRV is a better solution than higher sires link limit, because MRV in effect increases the number of tuners you have to record with for every location in your house, which raising the SL limit could never do.... and thus decreases any issues you can have with conflicts, and effectively increases your SL limit at the same im that way too...

However, it does nothing for someone who doesn't have but one box in their house...

I am thinking that the HMC30 will do that for us... Or hoping at least...


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> From the videos I've seen, it looks like the TEXT *ARE* GRAPHICS.
> 
> Ironically, if you look at the videos showing TiVo's classic GUI screens in action, they appear to have received the same speed boost over previous TiVo units as Doug's video for the HR24 showed over the previous HR2x models.
> 
> ~Alan


Granted, I haven't used a TiVo Premier. However, folks that have used an HR24 use "Fast" as the main mantra .. Folks that have used an TiVo Premier have uses "Slow" as the mantra .. It's great to have wishful thinking, but it is what it is ....


----------



## wingrider01

Nicholsen said:


> I guess the only thing worse than being slow is releasing buggy software and patching it for years while the users users suffer.
> 
> I only hope the new DirecTV Tivo box is as good as my HR10-250.


given the issues and failures I had with 3 hr10-250's that may not be a good wish. Like a boat the two happiest days of my life was when I got my first HR10 and when I finally them put it to rest and got rid of them.

The HR10 was no perfect piece of software or hardware, just people tend to gloss over that when they "fondly" recall their HR10 usage.


----------



## hancox

bonscott87 said:


> Yep, this is the point, they are late with everything and can't manage expectations at all. Let's review, shall we for hancox...
> 
> (blah blah blah)
> 
> I could go on but I won't.


Good, because you clearly missed:



> *I tend to agree*, but this could easily be flipped.


I'll make this simple - people here are being awfully cavalier in thinking this is 100% a tivo problem. There is merit in thinking that, no doubt. I'm just pointing out that the other elephant in the living room isn't a small one either, right now. Even satelliteracer has said, in context to the HBO addition lateness (see that coming up again?):



> Takes two to tango


Indeed.


----------



## Syzygy

inkahauts said:


> Don't forget the wonderful thing Tivo did for you on that channel list though.. It added new channels all the time, usually infomercial channels and such, the same ones, over and over....
> 
> Tivo had its strong suits, but don't think it didn't have its issues too..
> 
> Tivo is great for some, and *bad for others*... Which is why I still say its great to have 2 options for customers, and Directv is doing the right thing bring Tivo back.. someday... maybe..


Only an unconditional lover of DirecTV would place the blame for those constantly reappearing junk channels on TiVo. I think it's fair to say that just about everyone knows that DirecTV is responsible for deleting and re-adding these channels, which is why they reappear.

BTW, I strongly doubt that there are any "others" for whom TiVo is "bad." Yes, the HR10 does have its (tiny) issues, but they're trivial next to the mountain of boneheaded mistakes in the HR2x...
• The HR10 always forgets your position (in either a recording or the live buffer) if you've paused within 5 minutes of the end.
• FFx1 frequently (and inevitably) freezes, and then the screen may go black after a while, unless and until you press another trick play button.
• Every few months my HR10 has to be restarted, often after it complains that it hasn't been able to get schedule info because the phone connection isn't working.

Maybe DirecTV stopped allowing TiVo to update the HR10's software back when Rupert Murdoch was "the decider."


----------



## loudo

Nicholsen said:


> I only hope the new DirecTV Tivo box is as good as my HR10-250.


It better be better than the HR10-250 or I won't even consider switching over to one.


----------



## Alan Gordon

inkahauts said:


> I actually think MRV is a better solution than higher sires link limit, because MRV in effect increases the number of tuners you have to record with for every location in your house, which raising the SL limit could never do.... and thus decreases any issues you can have with conflicts, and effectively increases your SL limit at the same im that way too...





inkahauts said:


> However, it does nothing for someone who doesn't have but one box in their house...


I was going to reply to your post, but you already replied for me! 

I said a while back that I would _maybe_ consider subscribing to MRV for $3.00 if DirecTV added more customization to MRV. That hasn't happened yet, but if DirecTV offers MRV for $3.00, I'll probably force myself (against my better judgement) to get it. Should they go up in price, I'll probably drop it.

Also, I want to be able to have more than 50 Series Links on *ONE* box, MRV or not! If I want to have those Series Links mirrored on another box, that's my business.

As I've said before, "MRV is NOT a solution to the 50 Series Link limit. It might be considered a workaround, but it is NOT a solution." I also want to add that workarounds requiring an additional $3 a month isn't exactly what I'm looking for either... 

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

Doug Brott said:


> Granted, I haven't used a TiVo Premier. However, folks that have used an HR24 use "Fast" as the main mantra .. Folks that have used an TiVo Premier have uses "Slow" as the mantra .. It's great to have wishful thinking, but it is what it is ....


I have hope that once TiVo activates the second core, and programs the unit to cache additional graphics, the GUI will speed up considerably. *THAT'S WISHFUL THINKING!*

However, my previous statement was not.

Looking at the EngadgetHD videos of general GUI usage, the TiVo Premiere only appears to be slow in the areas of the GUI which have been redone. Areas of the unit in which the classic GUI still exists shows a rather large speed increase compared to the previous DirecTiVos I've had (SD & HD), as well as the stand-alones, including the TiVo Series 3, TiVo's speediest unit.

Check out videos four and five particularly for examples of what I'm talking about.

Another thing to note is that when watching the videos, it appears that even the new GUI screens fly... but only after all the graphics are loaded. TiVo really needs to cache additional graphics on the box, as well as allowing users to go ahead and use the GUI without having to wait until the Discovery Bar is finally loaded.

~Alan


----------



## harsh

Doug Brott said:


> However, folks that have used an HR24 use "Fast" as the main mantra .. Folks that have used an TiVo Premier have uses "Slow" as the mantra .. It's great to have wishful thinking, but it is what it is ....


Speed is relative. What is slow on one platform may be scary fast to users accustomed to another.


----------



## bonscott87

hancox said:


> Good, because you clearly missed:
> 
> I'll make this simple - people here are being awfully cavalier in thinking this is 100% a tivo problem. There is merit in thinking that, no doubt. I'm just pointing out that the other elephant in the living room isn't a small one either, right now. Even satelliteracer has said, in context to the HBO addition lateness (see that coming up again?):
> 
> Indeed.


Fair enough!


----------



## bonscott87

Alan Gordon said:


> Admittedly, I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the TiVo Premiere, but other than a really bone-head move of not caching several GUI graphics causing certain functions to be slower, I really haven't heard of that many issues with the Premiere.
> 
> I'd like to buy a TiVo Premiere later this year, but I intend on waiting until a sale.
> 
> ~Alan


Stop in the Tivo Premier forum over at the Tivo Community. Lot's of issues. Mostly with the new GUI being so darned slow. Hopefully Tivo will address some of them but Tivo is getting bad press and being panned by the Tivo "elite guard" now which is never a good thing. You lose those people and you might as well call it quits and just make yourself a patent holding and licensing company.


----------



## bonscott87

harsh said:


> Speed is relative. What is slow on one platform may be scary fast to users accustomed to another.


While that can be true you obviously haven't seen the Premier GUI or even watched the video reviews. It's painful.


----------



## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> [...] As I've said before, "MRV is NOT a solution to the 50 Series Link limit. It might be considered a workaround, but it is NOT a solution." [...]


I agree. I too have fallen into the trap of calling MRV a work-around for the 50-limit, and it's not.

I do believe it's a _smarter_ way to manage lots of recordings, though, since it adds tuners and allows more shows to fully autopad.

IMHO, the inconvenience of having to divide channels between two different series managers is more than made up by not having to constantly watch the TO DO list to see which shows are going to be bumped because tonight's _American Idol_ is now starting at :59, or _Grey's Anatomy_ will end at :01. This issue virtually disappears when you can throw four or more tuners at the problem. Just my .02.


----------



## Doug Brott

hancox said:


> I'll make this simple - people here are being awfully cavalier in thinking this is 100% a tivo problem. There is merit in thinking that, no doubt. I'm just pointing out that the other elephant in the living room isn't a small one either, right now. Even satelliteracer has said, in context to the HBO addition lateness (see that coming up again?):


But this is the TiVo anticipation thread, not the HD anticipation thread .. :shrug:

The ball is in TiVo's court .. It's theirs to finish or not at this point.


----------



## Steve

Doug Brott said:


> [...] The ball is in TiVo's court .. It's theirs to finish or not at this point.


Ya. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what could be behind the assertions that DirecTV is somehow at fault here. Did I miss some concrete examples of why that may be?

It certainly wasn't because DirecTV withheld any 2009 $$$, based on TiVo's public filings.


----------



## hancox

Doug Brott said:


> But this is the TiVo anticipation thread, not the HD anticipation thread .. :shrug:
> 
> The ball is in TiVo's court .. It's theirs to finish or not at this point.


sigh - talk about taking me out of context!


----------



## Doug Brott

Alan Gordon said:


> As I've said before, "MRV is NOT a solution to the 50 Series Link limit. It might be considered a workaround, but it is NOT a solution."





Steve said:


> I agree. I too have fallen into the trap of calling MRV a work-around for the 50-limit, and it's not.
> 
> I do believe it's a _smarter_ way to manage lots of recordings, though, since it adds tuners and allows more shows to fully autopad.


The 50-SLs will not be eternal .. I have never reached 40 on any of my systems so I just never see this problem.


----------



## Alan Gordon

bonscott87 said:


> Stop in the Tivo Premier forum over at the Tivo Community. Lot's of issues. Mostly with the new GUI being so darned slow. Hopefully Tivo will address some of them but Tivo is getting bad press and being panned by the Tivo "elite guard" now which is never a good thing. You lose those people and you might as well call it quits and just make yourself a patent holding and licensing company.


I was really asking what issues exist beyond the speed of the new GUI?!

I've read quite a few reviews of the TiVo Premiere, and about the only bad things I've read about it is the speed and that the TiVo Premiere isn't the huge leap forward TiVo would have you believe it is.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> I agree. I too have fallen into the trap of calling MRV a work-around for the 50-limit, and it's not.
> 
> I do believe it's a _smarter_ way to manage lots of recordings, though, since it adds tuners and allows more shows to fully autopad.
> 
> IMHO, the inconvenience of having to divide channels between two different series managers is more than made up by not having to constantly watch the TO DO list to see which shows are going to be bumped because tonight's _American Idol_ is now starting at :59, or _Grey's Anatomy_ will end at :01. This issue virtually disappears when you can throw four or more tuners at the problem. Just my .02.


Almost every time a new DVR comes out, whether it's DirecTV, TiVo, Dish Network, etc., somebody always complains that it only has two tuners.

For me, two tuners is just fine. If you want to record more, you get another DVR, and if you have DirecTV and want to watch those programs in the same room, MRV is a good solution (preferably if it was free, but oh well).

I may not like that there is a fee for it, I may want to have additional customization in MRV settings, but *I am an MRV fan*, but to me, it's not a solution to the SL limit.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon

Steve said:


> Ya. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what could be behind the assertions that DirecTV is somehow at fault here. Did I miss some concrete examples of why that may be?


In the past, I've stated that one of the reasons why I feel TiVo might be so slow regarding the new DirecTiVo is trying to implement certain DirecTV features.

That would only be DirecTV's fault in a roundabout way, and that's stretching it already, but that would be the only scenario I can really think of. 

~Alan


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## Syzygy

If I were TiVo, I would've switched platforms from the HR21/22/23 to the HR24 sometime last year; that's another possible reason for being late. 

That wouldn't be DirecTV's fault, naturally.


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## Steve

Alan Gordon said:


> In the past, I've stated that one of the reasons why I feel TiVo might be so slow regarding the new DirecTiVo is trying to implement certain DirecTV features.


I thought that too, but why not get something out the door and work on a subsequent "update" that includes MRV, e.g.? AFAIK, VOD hasn't really changed since the announcement back in the fall of '08, and PPV was already supported on the HR10.

Assuming they are porting to the similar HR21/22/23 h/w platform, it still mystifies me why they didn't "fast track" this development to stave off the loss of the hundreds of thousands of DirecTV subs they must have lost in 2009. That would have resulted in a lot more new subs (or retention of existing subs) than they'll ever get from the underwhelming Premiere platform they chose to work on instead, IMHO.

Maybe they're thinking like Frank, and have decided to wait for the HR24? Or if not, as Scott chronicled here, maybe it just takes TiVo forever to get anything done?


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## Stuart Sweet

Maybe the folks at TiVo aren't as smart as you think. 

At any rate, this thread will close after this evening and a new one will be opened.


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## Alan Gordon

Alan Gordon said:


> In the past, I've stated that one of the reasons why I feel TiVo might be so slow regarding the new DirecTiVo is trying to implement certain DirecTV features.
> 
> That would only be DirecTV's fault in a roundabout way, and that's stretching it already, but that would be the only scenario I can really think of.





Steve said:


> I thought that too, but why not get something out the door and work on a subsequent "update" that includes MRV, e.g.? AFAIK, VOD hasn't really changed since the announcement back in the fall of '08, and PPV was already supported on the HR10.


MRV is indeed an issue given the differences in MRV between the two platforms, but considering that MRV is currently only in Public Beta, I agree that they could simply work on an eventual update to include MRV.

HOWEVER, it's possible that VOD may be more complicated. While I can only assume that DoD works the same as VoD on stand-alone TiVos, DirecTV's individual channel system works rather differently than TiVo's implementation.

With Stand-Alone TiVos, VOD screens are essentially just VOD results displayed via the TiVo GUI that you access via an OnDemand menu. DirecTV offers individually branded interfaces, which if I'm not mistaken, appear to use DirecTV's Interactive functions? If I'm not mistaken as well, I'm wanting to say that I read where DirecTV once said that the individual networks have a say in designing those screens... which means DirecTV *might* want TiVo to offer the DoD channel screens like they do.

DirecTV likes to advertise their interactive features, which aside from "Local On The 8's", I have little use for, but which DirecTV appears to consider important, and in the case of GameLounge, allows them collect revenue. While stand-alone TiVos offer a few interactive games on them, my gut tells me they are written and presented differently than the way GameLounge is presented on DirecTV.

Though I do not know how valid the claims are, I believe I have read rumors that TiVo and "interactive" features are not a good mix when it comes to programming.

~Alan


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## Alan Gordon

Stuart Sweet said:


> Maybe the folks at TiVo aren't as smart as you think.


Not sure who you're replying to, but if you're talking to me, I think TiVo's made a lot of boneheaded ideas over the years, so my pedestal isn't extremely high to begin with... 

~Alan


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## tonyd79

Alan Gordon said:


> I was really asking what issues exist beyond the speed of the new GUI?!
> 
> I've read quite a few reviews of the TiVo Premiere, and about the only bad things I've read about it is the speed and that the TiVo Premiere isn't the huge leap forward TiVo would have you believe it is.
> 
> ~Alan


Well, if the box works correctly or not will have to wait until it is in the field for a while. The feature set is basically the same as current HD Tivos (they even have the HD GUI in Beta form). Reviews and first looks hardly ever find bugs. If they did, then that would be beyond bad.


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## jacmyoung

Today TiVo filed its 10K, in it it mentioned that the new DirecTiVo DVR will not be available before DirecTV's own new HDDVR is widely available. I recall many members here saying so for a long time, but this is the first time TiVo said so.


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## Stuart Sweet

A reminder that this thread will close tonight and a new one will open tomorrow.


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## RobertE

Stuart Sweet said:


> A reminder that this thread will close tonight and a new one will open tomorrow.


Do you have too? Ok about the first, the latter...not so much.


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## P Smith

With new opportunity to fulfill April 1st tradition. 


Stuart Sweet said:


> A reminder that this thread will close tonight and a new one will open tomorrow.


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## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> ...Either way, I wonder by those comments if they are they trying to shift some of the blame for the delay DirecTV's way?


That was my first thought too. I have always speculated DirecTV was not in any rush to help TiVo, now oddly enough TiVo agrees with me


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## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Today TiVo filed its 10K, in it it mentioned that the new DirecTiVo DVR will not be available before DirecTV's own new HDDVR is widely available. I recall many members here saying so for a long time, but this is the first time TiVo said so.


I'm reading the 10K, and so far, I haven't come across the statement you're referring to. Can you point me to the right section?


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## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> I'm reading the 10K, and so far, I haven't come across the statement you're referring to. Can you point me to the right section?
> 
> Meanwhile, I find it interesting they reiterated the snip I've attached below, at this late date. Unless I'm reading too much into it, it seems to imply there's still a chance a new HDTiVo may never see the light of day.
> 
> Frank's bet doesn't look as sure today as it did yesterday! :lol:





> due to the continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service in the future and our distribution deals such as Comcast, Virgin, and Cox are still in development and/or the early phases of deployment.


Link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/100331/tivo10-k.html


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## Steve

jacmyoung said:


> Link:
> 
> http://biz.yahoo.com/e/100331/tivo10-k.html


Just found the PDF on TiVo's investor site. Here's the full paragraph:

_"We expect to continue our efforts to increase our subscription base by adding new subscriptions through our TiVo-Owned direct and retail sales with the rollout of our new products and through our expanded agreement with Best Buy, as well as, our mass distribution partnerships both in the U.S. and globally. However, we still expect our overall subscription base to decrease from the prior year due to continued competition with our TiVo-Owned subscriptions and due to the continued losses in our installed base of MSOs/Broadcasters subscriptions as *DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service in the future* and our distribution deals such as Comcast, Virgin, and Cox are still in development and/or the early phases of deployment."_

It's just stating a matter of fact... DirecTV will not deploy any more HR10's or SD TiVo's prior to the launch of the HD TiVo's. No surprise. Says nothing about DirecTV holding TiVo back from introducing the new platform.


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## Steve

From that same 10k, this is the full text of a section that I wouldn't expect to see at this late date, based on Mr. Rogers public statements that the new DirecTiVo would be available late 2010:

_"*A significant part of our installed subscription base results from our relationship with DIRECTV which we expect to continue to decrease in the future due to DIRECTV's on-going support of competing DVRs.*

Although we are working with DIRECTV to develop a new high-definition DVR with TiVo for DIRECTV for launch in the future, DIRECTV does not currently have the right to manufacture and distribute TiVo DVRs to DIRECTV subscribers. As a result of this and DIRECTV's support of a competing DVR we expect the number of our DIRECTV with TiVo subscriptions to continue to decrease in the future. As a consequence of the loss of these future revenues from these DIRECTV subscribers with TiVo service subscriptions, our business may be harmed.

*We face risks in connection with our amended development and services agreements with DIRECTV for the development and deployment of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo service.*

Under the terms of our non-exclusive arrangement, we are working with DIRECTV and its suppliers to develop a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform to deliver the new HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service to DIRECTV for a launch to consumers later this year. We may face significant technological, third-party supplier and other challenges in our development of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR platform, any of which could delay or prevent us from delivering the new product. If we are unable to successfully develop this new broadband-enabled HD DVR with TiVo service for deployment by DIRECTV, we would not be able to acquire new subscribers from DIRECTV under these new agreements and our business could be harmed."_


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## Steve

I find this bit interesting as well. It describes TiVo's current relationship with DirecTV, but nowhere does it mention that DirecTV licenses any TiVo patented technology. Makes me wonder if the Replay patents DirecTV bought made it unecessary, since TiVo and Replay agreed NOT to sue each other and make the lawyers rich 7-8 years ago?

_"*DIRECTV.* DIRECTV is the largest provider of satellite television in the U.S. We have had a longstanding relationship with DIRECTV from 1999 to the present to provide the TiVo service to its customer base. As of January 31, 2010, DIRECTV represents a significant portion of our 1.1 million MSO/Broadcaster subscriptions.

DIRECTV currently pays us a recurring monthly per-household fee for access to the technology needed to provide its customers the TiVo service subject to a minimum monthly amount. We incur limited recurring expenses. We also recognize revenue from DIRECTV for engineering services work on integrated DIRECTV satellite receivers with TiVo service and the related service infrastructure. We are continuing to provide DIRECTV with engineering services related to currently installed hardware and updates and feature enhancements for existing platforms and customers.

Additionally, DIRECTV distributes TiVo advertising features on DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service. Subject to certain restrictions and exceptions, both DIRECTV and TiVo may sell this advertising and collect audience research measurement data, with each party retaining all their respective revenues generated from such sales.

DIRECTV currently does not have the right to continue to distribute DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service to new customers. Additionally, DIRECTV has added high definition programming in a format that is not compatible with the currently deployed population of TiVo-enabled high definition DVRs previously distributed by DIRECTV and is currently supporting a competing DVR platform. As a result, we have seen a reduction in the number of DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service subscriptions, a trend that we expect to continue until our new product for DIRECTV becomes available as further described below.

On September 3, 2008, the Company extended its current agreement with DIRECTV for the development, marketing, and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo service. Under the terms of this non-exclusive arrangement, TiVo is developing a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR which TiVo is working with DIRECTV with the intention to deploy this product to consumers later this year. DIRECTV, upon deployment of the HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service, is entitled to recoup, over time, a portion of certain development fees through a reduction in certain subscription fees. *The new agreement also extends the mutual covenant not to sue with respect to each company's products and services throughout the term of the new agreement.*

Under this new agreement, DIRECTV will pay a substantially higher monthly fee for households using the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo than the fees for previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. DIRECTV will continue to pay the current monthly fee for all households using only the previously deployed DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service. The fees paid by DIRECTV are subject to monthly minimum payments that escalate during the term of the agreement starting in 2010 and those minimum payments are substantially higher than in the prior agreement. The Company will continue to defer a portion of these fees as a non-refundable credit to fund mutually agreed development, with excess development work to be funded by DIRECTV. DIRECTV also has certain additional annual obligations to market and promote the new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo Service once it has launched."_


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## jacmyoung

Steve said:


> ...It's just stating a matter of fact... DirecTV will not deploy any more HR10's or SD TiVo's prior to the launch of the HD TiVo's. No surprise. Says nothing about DirecTV holding TiVo back from introducing the new platform.


Good call there, but what kind of "significant technological, third-party supplier and other challenges" can there be? DirecTV does not seem to have any of such challenges in rolling out its new HDDVRs.


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## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> Good call there, but what kind of "significant technological, third-party supplier and other challenges" can there be? DirecTV does not seem to have any of such challenges in rolling out its new HDDVRs.


Could be that the DirecTv hardware is evolving faster than the slow as molasses tivo programmers.


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## Alan Gordon

> *DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service in the future*


This seems like an almost exact quote as something that was said a year ago... :nono2:

~Alan


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## balboadave

Maybe the 10-K terminology is vague, but I'm reading that there are two products in development, one, a DirecTV platform with TiVo service, and two, a TiVo platform for DirecTV. Does anyone else get this too?



> DIRECTV will not deploy new TiVo boxes prior to the launch of the new HD DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo service in the future


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## jacmyoung

RobertE said:


> Could be that the DirecTv hardware is evolving faster than the slow as molasses tivo programmers.


They don't seem that slow on their own Premier HDDVRs, I suppose they have faced similar "challenges" working on their Premiers?


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## RobertE

jacmyoung said:


> They don't seem that slow on their own Premier HDDVRs, I suppose they have faced similar "challenges" working on their Premiers?


Look how well that turned out for them. :lol:

In all seriousness though. Tivo was able to design their hardware and write the software for the premier, that had more or less a fixed target to hit and by some accounts missed that target.

Now, if one believes the next DTivo will be based on existing D* hardware, look how much it has evolved in the last 4 years. I think that the hardware advances have and continue to outpace the programming ability of Tivo. Tivo has the Duke Nuke'm Forever syndrom. They are constantly chasing the next best thing and will continue to be vaporware until they get their collective behinds in gear.


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## Doug Brott

balboadave said:


> Maybe the 10-K terminology is vague, but I'm reading that there are two products in development, one, a DirecTV platform with TiVo service, and two, a TiVo platform for DirecTV. Does anyone else get this too?


I believe that one of those platforms is the HR10-250 and the other is the yet to be released MPEG4 DIRECTV Tivo.


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## inkahauts

Syzygy said:


> Only an unconditional lover of DirecTV would place the blame for those constantly reappearing junk channels on TiVo. I think it's fair to say that just about everyone knows that DirecTV is responsible for deleting and re-adding these channels, which is why they reappear.


Not true at all, and you apparently don't have all the facts...

The Directv Tivos are the only boxes ever made that I have seen that have this issue... All other brands (and remember, diretcv only recently started making their own units, relativity speaking) , and now the Directv branded units have not had these issues in the past.. or present... So its a Tivo issue, period. They never customized the software fully to work with Directv.

It comes from how Tivo updates its system differently than all other directv boxes.. I am not going to get into the details, but its not directv that caused this, its the way tivo checks for new channels, and can't remember from one min to the next that the new channel is the same as the old that was there a couple mins or even hours ago... But all other receivers I have ever used didn't have this issue...

Funny how people always blame DirecTV for any Tivo issues, when ALL other manufactures, and there have been many, many manufactures over the years, have never had the same issues as the tivo did...

And for the record, the best dvr was Replaytv, followed by UltimateTV, for where they where at when they where out.. More features and more advancement than any other competitor... period....


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## inkahauts

RobertE said:


> Could be that the DirecTv hardware is evolving faster than the slow as molasses tivo programmers.


Or even more difficult, they are updating their software faster, so things like MRV may be seen as a moving target for tivo, in which case, they need to get over it and leave that out if they need to and get the rest up and running and on the market if they want to stay competitive..

I don't believe their excuses simply because they have the same ones for all the same missed deadlines for all MSOs....

I really wish the people with money had put their money behind replaytv years ago... Life would have been so much better, for everyone!


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## Jeremy W

inkahauts said:


> Or even more difficult, they are updating their software faster, so things like MRV may be seen as a moving target for tivo, in which case, they need to get over it and leave that out if they need to and get the rest up and running and on the market if they want to stay competitive..


Unless DirecTV has mandated MRV as a feature in the next DirecTivo...


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## jal

balboadave said:


> Maybe the 10-K terminology is vague, but I'm reading that there are two products in development, one, a DirecTV platform with TiVo service, and two, a TiVo platform for DirecTV. Does anyone else get this too?


I agree, it's hard to figure out precisely what this means. Whoever wrote it should know. Anyone at Tivo or otherwise who has knowledge care to comment?


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## Steve

balboadave said:


> Maybe the 10-K terminology is vague, but I'm reading that there are two products in development, one, a DirecTV platform with TiVo service, and two, a TiVo platform for DirecTV. Does anyone else get this too?





Doug Brott said:


> I believe that one of those platforms is the HR10-250 and the other is the yet to be released MPEG4 DIRECTV Tivo.





jal said:


> I agree, it's hard to figure out precisely what this means. Whoever wrote it should know. Anyone at Tivo or otherwise who has knowledge care to comment?


I believe Doug's got it right and the distinction is clarified by the fourth and fifth paragraphs of the quoted material in this post above.

In the past, certain boxes only ran DirecTiVo software (_"DirecTV receivers with TiVo service"_, a.k.a. DirecTiVo's). In the future, at least one DirecTV box will be capable of running either DirecTV software or _"a version of the TiVo service for DIRECTV's broadband-enabled HD DVR."_


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