# Caller ID - A Breakthrough!



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I made a discovery this past weekend that may shed some light on getting Caller ID to work. I'd like to share this information here. We've all thought that DSL or some other feature of the actual phone line was the cause of the problem, but I'm going to suggest that the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the the phone line, but is actually related to whether or not you're equipment is properly grounded or not.

I was making some adjustments to the connections to my receivers. While one of my receivers had been switched out with another device, I received a telephone call .. the Caller ID detail was showing up on my Television. As many of you know, I have been having Caller ID problems since day one, so seeing Caller ID info pop up on my screen is a rare occurrence. I made a few test calls and Caller ID continued to work for the brief time I tested.

At this point, I decided to connect all of my receivers just as they are normally connected. In the process, I got zapped by the cable coming from multiswitch. This wasn't a 110-v zap, but it still stung .. Then a lightbulb goes off :blush: .. Let me try Caller ID again. Guess what! It doesn't work anymore. I'm back to the same symptoms that I have experienced for the past 5 months.

The natural thing to do at this point is disconnect the receiver that I had just reconnected and try again. I do that and this time, Caller ID fails. That doesn't make sense. That's when it comes to me. I've never had my Dish/Coax properly grounded in the 10+ years that I've had DirecTV. Maybe, just maybe, there is enough buildup of electrical charge to cause the modem chip to be operating out of it's designated limits.

I spent the next hour or so making sure all 4 of my coax connections from my 5-LNB dish were connected via a grounding block. I then tied the grounding block to the house-ground via a 3-prong receptacle outlet. In addition, I connected a grounding wire to the physical dish. After completing all of the connections, I step back into the house and try Caller ID .. It Works! :icon_da:

This was two days ago, and EVERY SINGLE Caller ID call to this point has worked. I test-called myself a number of times on 3 different phone lines .. Still it worked. The Caller ID info appears in about 1½ rings. During the entire setup process, I never powered down either HR20 nor did I change anything with the phone line .. that, too, remained connected to the HR20. The ONLY change that I made was to ground the coax and the dish to the house-ground.

I have NOT grounded my Multiswitch separately (or even at all for that matter), I have only grounded the 4 coax connections and the dish itself. The actual grounding looks similar to the "outside" portion of the following photo:










If you are like me and having constant Caller ID issues, I'd like for you to verify that your coaxial cables and the dish are properly grounded. If they are not, then I suggest getting them properly grounded (either professionally or do-it-yourself). This may be the root of your problem.

It also may be wise to check your electrical outlets for proper grounding. You can do this by purchasing a relatively inexpensive electrical circuit tester such as the following:










For some very good information on grounding your Satellite Dish look here. Grounding things can be serious business and you should be super careful to make sure you don't get hurt.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

I will certainly check this when I am home today. What is the likelihood that the D* installer properly grounded everything at installation? Is it safe to assume that it is part of the standard inatallation procedure?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> I will certainly check this when I am home today. What is the likelihood that the D* installer properly grounded everything at installation? Is it safe to assume that it is part of the standard inatallation procedure?


It should be, but I doubt that it always works out that way. I actually told my installer not to do it (that I would do it myself). I never grounded it until this past weekend as it has never been a problem with any of my other receivers. Now I know better .


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

I have a properly grounded dish to an earth ground. I do get a notificatin of a phone call telling me that I need to contact my telephone service provider to get caller ID.

Had you not been getting this message-and does everything now work?


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

Grounding is SUPPOSED to be part of the standard install, but I had to kick the first installer off the job and have them send out another tech to get it (and several other items) done right during my AU9 upgrade.

Since a plain old POTS line (including a DSL line) is usually correctly grounded (the phone company is pretty good about that) the CID issue was probably ground loop. You might not hear the hum of a ground loop on the phone (60Hz is below the frequency response of telephone earpieces) but it might mess up CID. I suspect that one of your receiver power outlets is wired incorrectly, and grounding the coax gave the leaking current an alternative path to ground (i.e. someplace OTHER than the phone line).

BTW: Grounding the 4 incoming wires will ground everything, including the multiswitch.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

Titan25 said:


> BTW: Grounding the 4 incoming wires will ground everything, including the multiswitch.


And vice versa.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

brott said:


> Grounding things can be serious business and you should be super careful to make sure you don't get hurt.


This can't be repeated enough. Disrespecting electricity is a pretty easy way to end up barbequed.

Great work, Doug! I hope that this leads to a lot more satisfied users!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jmschnur said:


> I have a properly grounded dish to an earth ground. I do get a notificatin of a phone call telling me that I need to contact my telephone service provider to get caller ID.
> 
> Had you not been getting this message-and does everything now work?


In my case, I was only getting this message after the 5th ring. I suspect that this was more a case of a timeout rather than real information. Once I grounded, voilà everything started working exactly as I expect. It hasn't missed a Caller ID once.


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

This, I think, begins to shine a light on the fact that there are many problems, unrelated to the software-related glitches, which are going to be caused by the infinite number of variances in each owner's unique HR20 setup. 

There are so many contingencies which D* could not account for, (although you'd think the installer would) which make many functions of the box react differently than intended from person to person. Power, grounding, wiring, RF interferences, usage of other appliances...so many things which can make glitches occur that may otherwise appear to us as flaws in the box.

How great this forum has proven to be!

Now, I must report with great fanfare that with a bit of tweaking to my breaker panel, I now have DLB! Eureka!:lol:


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Nice work. I wouldn't be surprised if inadequate grounding was also the root cause for some other problems some people have been experiencing as well.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> Nice work. I wouldn't be surprised if inadequate grounding was also the root cause for some other problems some people have been experiencing as well.


Agreed. The first thing past Caller ID that came to my mind was the "tuner 2" problem that seems so prevalent. I have not had the tuner 2 problem, but it's conceivable that my phone line was grounding the HR20 and the only issue was, of course, the phone line.


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## moonman (Oct 27, 2004)

While I'm glad that the intermittent CID problem was solved for the OP, My
CID problems continue to be Off/On....the incoming dish lines and the dish itself, as well as the POTS/DSL phone lines, are all properly earth grounded
via a metal ground rod driven into the earth by the installer.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

I have suspected grounding for a VARIETY of problems with the HR20, not just Caller ID. I don't subscribe to CID from my phone company (in fact, I only have a land-line at all for my kids to make local calls with and for DirecTV connections), but my dish and all four lines coming off it are properly grounded and always have been - compared to many folks, I've had VERY few issues with the HR20, even in the Bad Olde Days of last fall.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

moonman said:


> While I'm glad that the intermittent CID problem was solved for the OP, My
> CID problems continue to be Off/On....the incoming dish lines and the dish itself, as well as the POTS/DSL phone lines, are all properly earth grounded
> via a metal ground rod driven into the earth by the installer.


But is that connected to the house-ground? Two ground rods on the opposite side of the house that are not connected may not give the desired results.

Answer #4 from http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...ingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm


> DO NOT add an independent ground rod in accordance with the installation instructions, they are wrong. The dish and cable is required to be grounded to the service grounding electrode system, and yes you can use the same ground rod as the service ground rod as you suggested, see 810.21(F)(1)(a).


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

How would it explain my situation where it worked for me about 99% of the time and then it was pretty intermittent and now is basically dead? Could a ground go bad? Also, I know the first installer didn't ground anything and it still worked in the beginning (IIRC) and then I had them come out to ground it and and it still worked.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

First and foremost, this is not presented by Doug, et all, as the only problem or solution. But as a very important one for CID and other problems. So it will not explain everyone's situation.

That said, a ground can go bad if water gets in and causes corrosion as it dries. Good grounding techniques don't go bad very often, but bad techniques likely can.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mtnagel said:


> How would it explain my situation where it worked for me about 99% of the time and then it was pretty intermittent and now is basically dead? Could a ground go bad? Also, I know the first installer didn't ground anything and it still worked in the beginning (IIRC) and then I had them come out to ground it and and it still worked.


Are all four coax cables grounded? Is the ground connection tied to the electrical (power company) ground? If you have a floating ground or as one other poster suggested earlier a ground loop then the HR20 may not be seeing the proper voltages. The computer chip has a tolerance of acceptable voltages. The difference in voltage created through the ground loop or even "hum" through the phone lines could cause Caller ID to not work properly.

Bottom line, just double check that you see both the coax cables and the dish are tied to the common house power ground - not a secondary grounding rod.


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## dconfer (Nov 18, 2005)

My dish has never been grounded and my caller id works. I have had alot of installer and none of them have ever said anything about it. I dont know anything about that stuff so I never said anything.


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## Tiebmbr (Mar 27, 2007)

dconfer said:


> My dish has never been grounded and my caller id works. I have had alot of installer and none of them have ever said anything about it. I dont know anything about that stuff so I never said anything.


It's always a good idea to have a large metal object which sitting on top of your house grounded, whether it be an antenna, a dish, or a lightning rod...they all act about the same way.


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## johnck78 (Feb 19, 2007)

I've never had CID issues, and my dish has been grounded since day 1.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

I've never had caller ID problems and have had my system properly grounded all along.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

4DThinker said:


> I've never had caller ID problems and have had my system properly grounded all along.


Checking the grounding for a Caller ID problem almost seems counterintuitive, however, I do believe that it deserves a second look for anyone that is having Caller ID problems - be it permanent or intermittent problems.


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## Woody_1 (Jan 11, 2007)

Equipment can also be effected by the voltage present between neutral and ground. Most sensitive equipment (not necessarily home equipment) specs neutral to ground to be less than .5v
A high level of electrical “noise” riding on the ground or neutral can cause some very erratic operation. 
Another good reason for a quality UPS to help isolate the neutral to ground potential, and minimize unwanted “noise”.


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## roconnell (Apr 9, 2007)

It's only been a week since I had my HD DVR installed and Caller ID has been the only thing not to work. I know for a fact my system is not grounded but it's going to be this weekend.

Thanks


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Welcome to the forums, roconnell! :welcome_s

Tom


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

brott said:


> Are all four coax cables grounded? Is the ground connection tied to the electrical (power company) ground? If you have a floating ground or as one other poster suggested earlier a ground loop then the HR20 may not be seeing the proper voltages. The computer chip has a tolerance of acceptable voltages. The difference in voltage created through the ground loop or even "hum" through the phone lines could cause Caller ID to not work properly.
> 
> Bottom line, just double check that you see both the coax cables and the dish are tied to the common house power ground - not a secondary grounding rod.


First, I know nothing about this stuff. I only knew to look for grounding because of here. I had Dish Network for a year and D* for a few years and they were never grounded and I never had any issues because of it. After getting the HR20 installed and finding out about it here, I had D* come out after the initial install and ground the system.

Here is what it looks like. I have no grounding blocks. The 4 lines come out of the dish and go to the multi-switch, which is screwed into the roof. The 6 lines come out of that and 4 of those lines coming out of the switch had a wire attached to the 2 pairs of them. The wire is attached to what I assume are grounding points on the switch. One to each side of the switch. Those 4 lines (2 pairs of 2) enter the basement through the concrete wall and the wire is attached to a water pipe in my basement. The water pipe appears to be grounded and the ground wire goes outside. As far as I can see, the dish is not grounded at all.

Let me guess, this isn't right? And of course I'm out of the warranty period for the install, but really, are we all supposed to be electrical engineers to know it's grounded correctly? I didn't even know it wasn't grounded for 3 or 4 years I had satellite.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mtnagel,

The multiswitch may be acting as your "grounding block" in this situation. That is not necessarily desirable which may be why you have intermittent issues. In addition, the pipe that you are connected to does act as a ground. However, the questions becomes - is it tied to the electrical ground for the house? If it is not, then this may be the source of your intermittent problems.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> First, I know nothing about this stuff. I only knew to look for grounding because of here. I had Dish Network for a year and D* for a few years and they were never grounded and I never had any issues because of it. After getting the HR20 installed and finding out about it here, I had D* come out after the initial install and ground the system.
> 
> Here is what it looks like. I have no grounding blocks. The 4 lines come out of the dish and go to the multi-switch, which is screwed into the roof. The 6 lines come out of that and 4 of those lines coming out of the switch had a wire attached to the 2 pairs of them. The wire is attached to what I assume are grounding points on the switch. One to each side of the switch. Those 4 lines (2 pairs of 2) enter the basement through the concrete wall and the wire is attached to a water pipe in my basement. The water pipe appears to be grounded and the ground wire goes outside. As far as I can see, the dish is not grounded at all.
> 
> Let me guess, this isn't right? And of course I'm out of the warranty period for the install, but really, are we all supposed to be electrical engineers to know it's grounded correctly? I didn't even know it wasn't grounded for 3 or 4 years I had satellite.


It should be done as follows:

Ground wire from dish to ground
Each of the 4 lines should go through a ground block
Ground block is grounded

Generally, when they install, they use an attached pair of wire with a ground wire between them. This is the wire generally used to ground the dish. The grounding should be *outside* of the house. If your dish is struck my lightning, you don't really want that current brought *inside* your house. That kind of defeats the purpose of it being grounded. So although your system may be grounded sufficiently for daily use, I might suggest getting it redone properly.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

brott said:


> mtnagel,
> 
> The multiswitch may be acting as your "grounding block" in this situation. That is not necessarily desirable which may be why you have intermittent issues. In addition, the pipe that you are connected to does act as a ground. However, the questions becomes - is it tied to the electrical ground for the house? If it is not, then this may be the source of your intermittent problems.


Correction: "intermittent" up until a few releases ago; before that rock solid.

I'm just not ready to waste too much effort trying to change the grounding around when we don't know for sure that is it. While I think grounding is a big deal, the dish is way lower than the top of the house and there is a huge tree next to the house and dish, so while there is still a chance of lightening hitting the dish, I'd say it's pretty unlikely.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

brott said:


> I made a discovery this past weekend that may shed some light on getting Caller ID to work. I'd like to share this information here. We've all thought that DSL or some other feature of the actual phone line was the cause of the problem, but I'm going to suggest that the problem has absolutely nothing to do with the the phone line, but is actually related to whether or not you're equipment is properly grounded or not.
> 
> I was making some adjustments to the connections to my receivers. While one of my receivers had been switched out with another device, I received a telephone call .. the Caller ID detail was showing up on my Television. As many of you know, I have been having Caller ID problems since day one, so seeing Caller ID info pop up on my screen is a rare occurrence. I made a few test calls and Caller ID continued to work for the brief time I tested.
> 
> ...


Congrats Doug. Great trouble shooting!


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

mtnagel said:


> Correction: "intermittent" up until a few releases ago; before that rock solid.
> 
> I'm just not ready to waste too much effort trying to change the grounding around when we don't know for sure that is it. While I think grounding is a big deal, the dish is way lower than the top of the house and there is a huge tree next to the house and dish, so while there is still a chance of lightening hitting the dish, I'd say it's pretty unlikely.


Getting struck by lightning is *always* unlikely...until it happens.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

I will add 2 cents and wait for change.
The large telecommunications company I work for is spending a massive amount of man hours revisiting all of their equipment that has worked fine for years to insure proper grounding. This has all been inspired through the findings that the new video roll out simply will not work without a completely grounded network to drain off any stray or inductive voltages.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

brott said:


> Agreed. The first thing past Caller ID that came to my mind was the "tuner 2" problem that seems so prevalent. I have not had the tuner 2 problem, but it's conceivable that my phone line was grounding the HR20 and the only issue was, of course, the phone line.


Nice try, but I seriously doubt the tuner #2 issue is grounding related.

If it was, swapping receiver for a new one wouldn't have immediately fixed it.

And it would be more of an intermittent issue like your caller ID issue where it works sometimes.

I still believe the tuner #2 issue was simply either a bad batch of tuners from manufacturer OR that one of the HR20 assembly lines wasn't properly connecting the #2 tuner or some related connection.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> I still believe the tuner #2 issue was simply either a bad batch of tuners from manufacturer OR that one of the HR20 assembly lines wasn't properly connecting the #2 tuner or some related connection.


Not a +1..but a +10000000


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Nice try, but I seriously doubt the tuner #2 issue is grounding related.


You wanna make poll on that? :lol:


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

brott said:


> You wanna make poll on that? :lol:


:uglyhamme


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

The church I went to when I was growing up had 2 power services. One on each end with there own ground. We had to run a special power line to the mixer in the back of the church because there was so much differance between the 'grounds' from one end of the building to the other that we had a severe hum.


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## 4DThinker (Dec 17, 2006)

Having the system grounded properly actually reduces the chance lightening will hit. The grounded dish, like a lightening rod, disipates the building charge. At least that's what I was taught in grade school studying Ben Franklin.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

4DThinker said:


> Having the system grounded properly actually reduces the chance lightening will hit. The grounded dish, like a lightening rod, dissipates the building charge. At least that's what I was taught in grade school studying Ben Franklin.


"Ben" wasn't sitting on the dish...
His lightening rod was to have a ground higher up so it WOULD get hit first, saving the building.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "Ben" wasn't sitting on the dish...
> His lightening rod was to have a ground higher up so it WOULD get hit first, saving the building.


You would know, I have heard you lent him the key.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just keep lobbing them up there...


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "Ben" wasn't sitting on the dish...
> His lightening rod was to have a ground higher up so it WOULD get hit first, saving the building.


The cables I have grounded inside only. I have been debating driving a ground rod for the dish and the outside runs. I agree with what I think VOS is saying. Making the dish the greatest ground potential is maybe a recipe for disaster.
But by grounding my interior lines I drain off stray voltage and static electricity.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

armophob said:


> The cables I have grounded inside only. I have been debating driving a ground rod for the dish and the outside runs. I agree with what I think VOS is saying. Making the dish the greatest ground potential is maybe a recipe for disaster.
> But by grounding my interior lines I drain off stray voltage and static electricity.


Lightning really doesn't care how well your dish is grounded. If it strikes, and you dish isn't grounded, then all of that electricity will need to find another path to ground. It's best if that path *isn't* through the coax and into your house. My suggestion is still to properly ground the dish and the lines, and most importantly, outside.....*NOT INSIDE.* The ground for the house electrical system may be inside, but you should *absolutely not ground your dish inside*. I just want that on the record in case your house ever gets struck by lightning.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

armophob said:


> The cables I have grounded inside only. I have been debating driving a ground rod for the dish and the outside runs. I agree with what I think VOS is saying. Making the dish the greatest ground potential is maybe a recipe for disaster.
> But by grounding my interior lines I drain off stray voltage and static electricity.


It's OK to drive another ground rod, but make sure it is tied in with the other ground rod - the one for the electrical service in your house. If you don't, you will create a ground-loop which is not a good thing.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> The cables I have grounded inside only. I have been debating driving a ground rod for the dish and the outside runs. I agree with what I think VOS is saying. Making the dish the greatest ground potential is maybe a recipe for disaster.
> But by grounding my interior lines I drain off stray voltage and static electricity.


Stray voltage & static won't kill you, but the trillion amp strike is a whole other beast.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> Lightning really doesn't care how well your dish is grounded. If it strikes, and you dish isn't grounded, then all of that electricity will need to find another path to ground. It's best if that path *isn't* through the coax and into your house. My suggestion is still to properly ground the dish and the lines, and most importantly, outside.....*NOT INSIDE.* The ground for the house electrical system may be inside, but you should *absolutely not ground your dish inside*. I just want that on the record in case your house ever gets struck by lightning.


I must have not made it very clear. The dish itself and the 4 cables coming from it are attached to the copper faucet pipe below due to the Florida D* installer. The grounding inside for the SWM and other electronics is directly to the house ground loop.

But, the copper pipe ground is 'fake'. In Florida new construction (possibly everywhere), buried water pipe is pvc. So the copper pipe it is connected to is just as far in the wall until an adapter to pvc is made. It is not a source of ground. My debate is to drive a ground rod and make my dish, a lower point in the roofline, the most ground potential. 
Normally when you do this procedure here in Florida (and possibly elsewhere) it is to draw the lightning to that source other than its surrounding building. Which in this case, is less desirable. A hole in my roof tiles would be less expensive than a shot through my house electrical or stereo. All of which may be mute point in a direct hit. 
Bottom line is, I have a 2 story home 100' to the left. Let them be a better ground potential during the storms than my dish.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> I must have not made it very clear. The dish itself and the 4 cables coming from it are attached to the copper faucet pipe below due to the Florida D* installer. The grounding inside for the SWM and other electronics is directly to the house ground loop.
> 
> But, the copper pipe ground is 'fake'. In Florida new construction (possibly everywhere), buried water pipe is pvc. So the copper pipe it is connected to is just as far in the wall until an adapter to pvc is made. It is not a source of ground. My debate is to drive a ground rod and make my dish, a lower point in the roofline, the most ground potential.
> Normally when you do this procedure here in Florida (and possibly elsewhere) it is to draw the lightning to that source other than its surrounding building. Which in this case, is less desirable. A hole in my roof tiles would be less expensive than a shot through my house electrical or stereo. All of which may be mute point in a direct hit.
> Bottom line is, I have a 2 story home 100' to the left. Let them be a better ground potential during the storms than my dish.


See if you can "offer" them a new lightening rod installation. Make sure there is a very large conductor to ground for them. !Devil_lol


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

If lightning actualy hits your dish it won't matter what you have it grounded to. It will burn up everything and anything hooked to it. I known people that got hit and it burned the 115v wires out of the wall..
But to prevent static build up it is very important..


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

mtnagel said:


> Correction: "intermittent" up until a few releases ago; before that rock solid.
> 
> I'm just not ready to waste too much effort trying to change the grounding around when we don't know for sure that is it. While I think grounding is a big deal, the dish is way lower than the top of the house and there is a huge tree next to the house and dish, so while there is still a chance of lightening hitting the dish, I'd say it's pretty unlikely.


mtnagel, it is not always height that draws a lightning strike, it is voltage potential difference. If the potential of the dish is greatly different from even higher surrounding features, then lightning probably will strike the dish. Improper or no grounding can also cause a static charge to build up on the dish which eventually discharges causing havoc with the LNB's or anything else it discharges through. Proper grounding is extremely important to the long term health of the system.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

houskamp said:


> If lightning actualy hits your dish it won't matter what you have it grounded to. It will burn up everything and anything hooked to it. I known people that got hit and it burned the 115v wires out of the wall..
> But to prevent static build up it is very important..


And that is my dilemma. Do I add the grounding source in the most prone lightning area in the country. Or take a chance that I get hit and everything blows up more than if I had grounded the dish. It's like how much damage do you want, most of everything or everything.

I still welcome arguments. I have a ground rod in the garage to drive in. I am just not convinced it is in my best interest.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> See if you can "offer" them a new lightening rod installation. Make sure there is a very large conductor to ground for them. !Devil_lol


I push their metal trash cans up against their house every time I come home from work.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> And that is my dilemma. Do I add the grounding source in the most prone lightning area in the country. Or take a chance that I get hit and everything blows up more than if I had grounded the dish. It's like how much damage do you want, most of everything or everything.
> 
> I still welcome arguments. I have a ground rod in the garage to drive in. I am just not convinced it is in my best interest.


Is your coax outside?
Sure "seems" to make sense to have a large conductor to ground before entering the house.
"If your numbers up" wouldn't it make [some] sense to give it somewhere to go? 
We all know it will go where ever it wants, but it "might" limit the damage if you gave it its own path.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Is your coax outside?
> Sure "seems" to make sense to have a large conductor to ground before entering the house.
> "If your numbers up" wouldn't it make [some] sense to give it somewhere to go?
> We all know it will go where ever it wants, but it "might" limit the damage if you gave it its own path.


best hope is it burns the wires off the dish before it gets inside..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

armophob,

Everything I have discussed will do nothing for Lighting Strikes .. that happens, you're screwed. What I've suggested is for getting the Silicon chips inside the HR20 to behave properly.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

brott said:


> armophob,
> 
> Everything I have discussed will do nothing for Lighting Strikes .. that happens, you're screwed. What I've suggested is for getting the Silicon chips inside the HR20 to behave properly.


Agreed. I stand by my decision.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

houskamp said:


> best hope is it burns the wires off the dish before it gets inside..


Luckily the rain blowing at 150mph will put out the fire. I do love this place.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

armophob said:


> Luckily the rain blowing at 150mph will put out the fire. I do love this place.


Well, here's hoping for no lightning, no fire, and by all means no rain blowing at 150mph


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Is your coax outside?
> Sure "seems" to make sense to have a large conductor to ground before entering the house.
> "If your numbers up" wouldn't it make [some] sense to give it somewhere to go?
> We all know it will go where ever it wants, but it "might" limit the damage if you gave it its own path.


I am sure you have seen the same shows I have on lightning strikes. The greatest grounds like trees and poles and rooftops, send out leaders that act as potential strike points. To make my dish the biggest potential is just adding to the odds. And like housecamp says, a hit is a hit and really at that point what survives?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

brott said:


> Well, here's hoping for no lightning, no fire, and by all means no rain blowing at 150mph


Not me. I have a 1,000,000 watt hurricane magnetron running in my garage full power from June to November. I work for the phone company. Disaster is money.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Doug,

This is great work!

Ground loops and floating grounds would explain a lot. Any decent lab doing these tests will have wonderful grounding everywhere so they would never see your problems.

Your house is from 1957 with two-wire outlets and Caller ID problems. If they test what you describe in their modern lab and say you must be nuts.

Well at least that last part is true. :lol: 

My church parsonage just had a $100,000 fire caused by a floating ground doing this to an attic exhaust fan. The voltage was not enough to turn the fan, so it became a 1200 Watt space heater. 

This also explains a true quandary from the Caller ID Site Survey.

Plain Old Telephone Systems (POTS) are more likely to have Caller ID problems than DSL, VoIP, etc. DSL & VoIP by their nature are not going to have the ground loops that POTS has.

Everyone, please go get an outlet tester like Doug showed. They are a few dollars at Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, Ace, etc. Check every outlet in your home then your family and friends. It is a little more for the GFI tester that Doug shows in the picture. They simulate a person being electrocuted so that you can see that the GFI outlet will trip. You will be amazed how often GFI outlets aren't.

Even brand new construction often have incorrectly wired outlet, floating grounds,

We still have not talked about the fact that many of us have multiple receivers, some on the A side and some on the B side of our house wiring.

Doug, again great work.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> I am sure you have seen the same shows I have on lightning strikes. The greatest grounds like trees and poles and rooftops, send out leaders that act as potential strike points. To make my dish the biggest potential is just adding to the odds. And like housecamp says, a hit is a hit and really at that point what survives?


Yeah, Ben & I had a hard time selling his contraption in the early days because people didn't want the lightening being attracted to their barns. Over time though we wore them down & sold a few of them.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

leww37334 said:


> mtnagel, it is not always height that draws a lightning strike, it is voltage potential difference. If the potential of the dish is greatly different from even higher surrounding features, then lightning probably will strike the dish. Improper or no grounding can also cause a static charge to build up on the dish which eventually discharges causing havoc with the LNB's or anything else it discharges through. Proper grounding is extremely important to the long term health of the system.


Well then why don't installers do it properly? I've had 4 satellite installs (1 E* and 3 D*) and they still didn't get it right even though the sole purpose of the last one was to ground the system properly after I called to complain.

Now I'm faced with learning how to properly ground things and spending my own time and money to fix it. I'm not too excited about that thought


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## STEVEN-H (Jan 19, 2007)

I just finished grounding my slimline and four feeds into my house correctly. The installers just want to get out so fast that last thing they want is to correctly ground the system. I you asked questions you will get it is not necessary for it to be grounded to I think it is more dangerous to be grounded. I just got tired of it all and did it myself. The last guys ran the feeds into my basement across the ceiling out a side wall to a ground block, back into the basement and up to my receivers.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

brott said:


> armophob,
> 
> Everything I have discussed will do nothing for Lighting Strikes .. that happens, you're screwed. What I've suggested is for getting the Silicon chips inside the HR20 to behave properly.


It's the level of screwed that I am trying to limit for people. If your house hets hit by lightning, you've just had a very bad day. If you dish is grounded *inside*, and now your house burned down, you've just had an awful day.

Obviously the intention of this thread was to discuss the effect of proper grounding on the performance of electronics. However, if someone is going to grou nd their system, it ought to be done properly. That was my only point. Whatever path the electricity decides to take will be completely burned and destroyed. Like I said, it's best if that talkes place outside your house.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> Doug,
> 
> This is great work!
> 
> ...


I've never had a problem with either HR20s since I've had them, maybe because I had wiring re-done this past summer. Will check with ground tester when I get home and snow stops to check outside. Crazy weather!


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## Woody_1 (Jan 11, 2007)

hilmar2k said:


> It's the level of screwed that I am trying to limit for people. If your house hets hit by lightning, you've just had a very bad day. If you dish is grounded *inside*, and now your house burned down, you've just had an awful day.
> 
> Obviously the intention of this thread was to discuss the effect of proper grounding on the performance of electronics. However, if someone is going to grou nd their system, it ought to be done properly. That was my only point. Whatever path the electricity decides to take will be completely burned and destroyed. Like I said, it's best if that talkes place outside your house.


You are certainly right. We are talking about very separate things.

Grounding for the sake of "noise" reduction, floating grounds, neutral to ground potential difference is one thing.
Grounding for the sake of a lightning strike is another.

If lightning strikes your dish, your house, the tree near your house, your yard, you are likely going to loose some of your toys. A direct hit is not necessary to cause heavy localized damage due to the enormous amount of voltage involved. 
Grounding a dish for this sake may help, but voltages at that level don't always play by the normal rules. Something normally non conductive is just a minor nuisance to lightning if it is in its path.
Grounding the dish is good insurance, but no guarantee that lightning will not cause damage, inside or out.

Properly grounding the 110 outlet, with stabilized voltage (quality UPS) will help daily performance, and component longevity of sophisticated devices.

PS on the "old" lightning rod, my understanding is that the theory was to reduce the potential difference between the lightning rod area (the building the rods were attached to) and the clouds by feeding electrons up at a higher rate. 
One of the problems was that the rate couldn't always meet the need so the lightning rod turned into a great strike point for lightning. 
The lightning would follow the wire from the rod to the ground. The wire would get so hot that it could burn the area around it. I guess that's why no more rods on houses.


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## joesigg (Feb 22, 2007)

This has certainly been a "well grounded" discussion!


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> It should be done as follows:
> 
> Ground wire from dish to ground
> Each of the 4 lines should go through a ground block
> ...


While some of your suggestions are a worthwhile start, they are missing a key component, that very few in the consumer sat area are aware of.

You can ground your dish all you like and a direct hit will not be ameliorated in the slightest. The protection against a direct hit costs hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars, and is FAR more involved than a single ground rod and grounding block.

If your "dish ground" and your electric service ground are not at the same potential when a nearby strike happens, you can kiss your equipment goodbye. The only way to get your equipment/dish and electric service ground at the same "potential", i.e., GROUND is to have a low impedance path from each device to a single point ground and that ground should be a "good" ground. A single ground rod is nothing even close to a "good" ground.

Without doing this (and you can see some of my other posts on how this has to be done), here is what happens: (and I've seen it tens of times, this is not "theory"):

A nearby strike causes the electrical service ground to rise to several thousand volts. Multip0le pieces of electronic equipment connected to the service ground by single wires of small diameter (or the 3rd wire ground of the outlet) instead of copper strap or heavy (#4 or #6 copper) presents a large impedance to this rising potential. It acts like a resistor. Current flows due to the high potential difference between the dish/single ground (a poor ground, that is resting several ohms above true ground) and the electrical service ground (which has risen due to the nearby strike). You now have several THOUSAND volts of potential difference between the dish/equipment and your electrical service, which your gear and antenna are plugged into. Flash, bang, sizzle.

Because a single ground rod connected to a dish with a thin wire is such a poor ground, you could well cause more problems than you solve. The purpose of the dish ground to a single ground wire is for your personal safety in case of a line fault condition, it will not protect you against lightning or its induced surges. That is why it is called a "safety ground". It doesn't protect equipment against anything of consequence.

Until we understand the difference between a safety ground (which can be very poor in RF terms and still provide "safety"), and an RF ground (which is what lightning is...it is RF), we remain quite vulnerable to equipment damage.

Please understand, I am NOT finding fault with safety grounds, they are mandated by law/code. What they don't do is protect equipment very well.

The ground blocks commonly used provide the illusion of protection, while providing next to none against a nearby strike (not to mention a direct hit). The proper device to use at a ground buss is a fast action gas discharge tube (readily available from polyphasor, but expensive at 50 or 60 bucks EACH). Further, for them to be effective, they must be just one component in a single point ground "system".

I would venture to say that 99.9% of all consumer sat installations have VERY POOR GROUNDING technique. Running ground wires all over the place, while not paying attention to the "path" of those grounds and the impedances involved can actually cause more problems than they cure....it is pure LUCK if this kind of haphazard grounding eliminates hum or ground loops...it is just as likely to cause ground loops as to eliminate them.

Further, surge protectors don't protect very well if they don't return to ground via a low impedance path as well. (same problem as above).

So, safety grounds are NECESSARY, but not SUFFICIENT to protect equipment (and people) from lightning induced damage (which, I might add is far more common and likely than simple line faults...although both need to be addressed)

I would suggest anyone interested in protecting their equipment go to the polyphasor site (google it) and read their treatise on ground systems and lightning protection. They actually know what they are talking about and have volumes of empirical and theoretical data to back it up.

In summary: for proper protection all your "grounds" have to be at the same potential and sticking a single wire fed ground rod into the earth, is NOT going to achieve this. The single wire/single rod below dish is good for a safety ground, but has no real protection against lightning induced surges (that come in via your electrical service/AC power line).

Grounding is a complicated subject and the threat is real (in most areas of the country). Your suggestions are a start, but only a start and no one should think that the single wire/single rod is doing anything other than protecting personal safety...it does little to nothing to protect your valuable equipment.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

For folks that are having Caller ID problems - 

Has anyone else tried this technique to see if Caller ID starts working for you?


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## Animal (Apr 13, 2007)

There is a small black wire attached to the dual coax from the satellite dish attached by a clamp to my electrical box inside my basement. Also, the multiswitch is connected to the same clamp with a green ground wire. Is this a safe implementation?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Animal said:


> There is a small black wire attached to the dual coax from the satellite dish attached by a clamp to my electrical box inside my basement. Also, the multiswitch is connected to the same clamp with a green ground wire. Is this a safe implementation?


Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

Safe? From preventing a lightning strike, probably not. But it should prevent ground loops and floating ground problems for the equipment and from shocking you.

And I'm amazed at how much one needs to protect from lightning strikes.

Cheers,
Tom


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I reverted from the CE to 145 and caller ID returned, for now, at least.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s
> 
> Safe? From preventing a lightning strike, probably not. But it should prevent ground loops and floating ground problems for the equipment and from shocking you.
> 
> ...


It will protect you from "line fault conditions" and your equipment shocking you. It may or may not help with a ground loop or hum problem. It offers little to no protection against lightning strikes (nearby or direct).

A "common ground" will eliminate most ground loops and hum issues. However, what makes a common ground a "common" ground? The impedance from each piece of connected equipment to the ground "reference", which is the "common" in common ground. As long as these impedances are kept low, loops and hum are minimized. To the extent that they are not "low", both are possible, if not likely.

What makes these troublesome impedances low?

1. Wide conductors: copper strap or large wires.

2. Short runs.

3. Multiple runs: one for each piece of equipment to the "common ground reference" Don't daisy chain

You should have a "home run" from each device to the "common" ground. I'm not talking about lightning protection here, I'm only talking about "looping" and hum issues. Things should look like this: (----> is the ground runs of strap/thick wire/braid)

HR20 -----> reference common ground (RFG)
Amp-------> RFG
TV---------> RFG
DVD-------> RFG
etc.-------> RFG

It should NOT look like this:

HR20 ---->Amp---->--TV------->DVD----->Reference Common Ground

If I had ground loop or hum problems (that aren't caused by defective cables/connectors), I would use 1/2" copper strap for my home runs, or 1/4 to 1/2" wide braid (indoors only), like the braid jacket on RG-6 coax. You can get copper or tinned copper braid from a variety of sources, one of which is Amateur Electronic Supply. Do NOT use braid for outside grounding, copper strap or thick copper wire ONLY.


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## CHDinCT (Dec 23, 2006)

brott said:


> It's OK to drive another ground rod, but make sure it is tied in with the other ground rod - the one for the electrical service in your house. If you don't, you will create a ground-loop which is not a good thing.


Extending this to my antenna, do you see any issues with an OTA outside antenna with a separate outside ground rod than the one used for the dish? My dish is grounded to the electrical service ground rod, but my OTA antenna has a separate ground rod (that I installed) elsewhere do to the antenna coax entering the house in a different location than the dish coax. Given that the dish and antenna are ultimately connected at the HR20, is this an issue? I've had no caller ID issues until the last software update, now I get nada when the phone rings.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

CHDinCT said:


> Extending this to my antenna, do you see any issues with an OTA outside antenna with a separate outside ground rod than the one used for the dish? My dish is grounded to the electrical service ground rod, but my OTA antenna has a separate ground rod (that I installed) elsewhere do to the antenna coax entering the house in a different location than the dish coax. Given that the dish and antenna are ultimately connected at the HR20, is this an issue? I've had no caller ID issues until the last software update, now I get nada when the phone rings.


If they are not tied together, you could have a ground loop; and as hasan pointed out, if they are not tied together good enough, then you still may have a ground loop. You could always disconnect the coax for your antenna at the back of the HR20 and then test to see if Caller ID works. It is very possible that an OTA antenna is acting as a ground source for your HR20. Since I know that grounding issues can affect Caller ID performance, I would not be surprised if this is part of your problem.

... Now the bigger question of "why did it once work?" If the caller ID problems relate to grounding issues, what was wrong before is not more wrong now. The increase in functionality may be using more processing power in the computer chip now .. different algorithms may result in different usage patters. What was an OK voltage tolerance in the "old" scenario may now be outside of the tolerances in the "new" scenaro.

As an example, let's assume that POWER pin(s) and the GROUND pin(s) on the computer chip need to have a differential of 4.5v to 5.5v (I'm making these numbers up). If your system were improperly grounded and what you thought was 5v was actually 4.5v, then the chip would still work. Let's say something changes in the environment (weather, corrosion, more equipment added to house - pretty much anything) and that voltage differential drops to 4.0v - below the tolerance level. Now, clearly the audio/video stuff has a much better tolerance as I've never had those issues, just Caller ID. But if the differential is not within the tolerances, then unpredictable things can happen. This means that it could work sometimes and then fail sometimes.

So, in your case, I really would suggest removing the OTA connection from the back of the HR20 and check the results. I'm not a grounding expert by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, I went ungrounded for 10 years. All I know is that when I grounded my SAT coax and the SAT dish (I don't have OTA), all of a sudden the Caller ID started working - and it still does almost a week later 100% success rate.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Doug,
Part of the "ground" is "the ground"..and the moister in it adding to the conductivity...


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Unbelievable!!

Wednesday I talked to AT&T and changed our phone package for my parents so it would include Caller ID (and wound up saving about $60 from their phone/internet bill) since they didn't have it until now.

So today the Caller ID service became available.
Currently the dish, swm, and coax cables are NOT grounded.

But we happen to have an electric pipe (split from the main junction box and runs to the garage) running right past where the sat coax cables come into the house ... AND 2 of the 4 coax cables are screwed into a grounding block that's just hanging within an inch of the pipe ... so I figured I'd do some tests.

1) Call #1 - didn't show up on tv in 4 rings.
2) Touched the grounding block to the electric pipe.
3) Call #2 - showed up on the tv during first ring.
4) Pulled the grounding block away from the electric pipe.
5) Call #3 - didn't show up on tv in 4 rings.
6) Touched the grounding block to the electric pipe.
7) Call #4 - showed up on the tv during first ring.
8) Pulled the grounding block away from the electric pipe.
9) Call #5 - showed up on the tv during first ring.
10) Call #6 - showed up on the tv during first ring.
11) Call #7 - showed up on the tv during first ring.
12) Call #8 - showed up on the tv during first ring.

I'll leave the grounding block off the electric pipe for awhile to see if static builds up in the lines and disables the Caller ID again.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

A lot of interference and "noise" is running thru that pipe. It's almost like a giant antenna, lots of stuff bouncing around in there.


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## smitchell24 (Sep 22, 2005)

My caller ID was working fine til a few CE releases ago, not sure the exact one now, but yesterday I had to cut the power to do some electrical work in the room where the HR20 is located & when power was restored and the HR20 was fired back up, the Caller ID starting working again.

Haven't had a chance to check today to see if it continues to work, but could a hard reboot actually fix the caller ID issue?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

smitchell24 said:


> My caller ID was working fine til a few CE releases ago, not sure the exact one now, but yesterday I had to cut the power to do some electrical work in the room where the HR20 is located & when power was restored and the HR20 was fired back up, the Caller ID starting working again.
> 
> Haven't had a chance to check today to see if it continues to work, but could a hard reboot actually fix the caller ID issue?


Anytime the power is removed from the HR-20 for an extended period of time, it allows the chips inside to "de-voltage", so if just one input to a chip [and the wrong one for you] stays "high" when it shouldn't, you can have just what you posted.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

Coffey77 said:


> A lot of interference and "noise" is running thru that pipe. It's almost like a giant antenna, lots of stuff bouncing around in there.


Were you referring to my post?

I was implying that touching the coax's grounding block to the elctrical pipe actually FIXED the Caller ID.

While I'm posting, here's an update:
Grounding block is still not touching the pipe.
Call #9 (new caller) failed
Call #10 (my cell phone) succeeded
Call #11 (another new caller) failed
Call #12 (my cell phone) succeeded

New Theory:
So now I'm thinking that MAYBE since my receiver has already processed my cell phone's number a few times in previous test while the coax was grounded ... maybe it's still able to process that number even without the ground now?

Could this explain why the other 2 calls from new callers failed without the ground AND might explain why it sometimes works intermittently for some D* users?

I know this is a longshot, but hey, sometimes that's what troubleshooting it about, right? Thinking outside the box?

When should I try touching the grounding block to the pipe again?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Were you referring to my post?
> 
> I was implying that touching the coax's grounding block to the elctrical pipe actually FIXED the Caller ID.
> 
> ...


What is the coax grounding block connected to. You may have 2 grounding sources creating 2 ground potentials. Now we get to start using the word bonding. Bonding 2 potentially different ground sources is also desired for electronics.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> I was implying that touching the coax's grounding block to the elctrical pipe actually FIXED the Caller ID.


Are you starting to believe?

I have 4 recievers, each with two connections, all on various channels, so I was sending all kinds of 18v and 13v charges down toward the multiswitch & by extension, the dish. Being fully loaded, I was probably building up the charge faster than a lot of folks.

A "not working" mode may simply mean that the answer to the question is indeterminate. It may or may not work. A "working" mode would be where the answer is correct every time.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

armophob said:


> What is the coax grounding block connected to. You may have 2 grounding sources creating 2 ground potentials. Now we get to start using the word bonding. Bonding 2 potentially different ground sources is also desired for electronics.


4 RG6 cables go from dish into the house where the multiswitch is.

2 of the cables go straight from dish to multiswitch, no breaks.

2 of the cables are cut before it goes into house, then screwed into just a generic small grounding block (hanging freely), and then another 2 cables connected to other side of grounding block go into the house to the multiswitch.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> 4 RG6 cables go from dish into the house where the multiswitch is.
> 
> 2 of the cables go straight from dish to multiswitch, no breaks.
> 
> 2 of the cables are cut before it goes into house, then screwed into just a generic small grounding block (hanging freely), and then another 2 cables connected to other side of grounding block go into the house to the multiswitch.


So the grounding block is not really grounded to anything? In this area where you have been touching the electric conduit, do you have any copper water pipe you can fasten the grounding block to?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

armophob said:


> So the grounding block is not really grounded to anything? In this area where you have been touching the electric conduit, do you have any copper water pipe you can fasten the grounding block to?


I am taking an assumption that your home has copper waterpipe and not like mine with all pvc.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

armophob said:


> So the grounding block is not really grounded to anything?


Correct



armophob said:


> In this area where you have been touching the electric conduit, do you have any copper water pipe you can fasten the grounding block to?


The water and electric meters are about 10 feet away.
I haven't looked inside the water/electric closet yet, but I suppose so.
Can I ask why your asking?
 
So far, with my very limited testing, I've been suggesting that Caller ID works when I make the grounding block touch the electrical pipe.


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## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

My callerid has always only worked about 50% of the time...nothing was grounded...so I just "grounded" the swm unit with some 12 guage copper to cold water pipe to see if that helps it.
Now to a separate question...my at9 dish is screwed(self tapping screws) into a 4 inch pipe that is sticking about 25ft out of the ground...I don't know how far it goes into the earth but would this suffice as a ground.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jlancaster said:


> My callerid has always only worked about 50% of the time...nothing was grounded...so I just "grounded" the swm unit with some 12 guage copper to cold water pipe to see if that helps it.
> Now to a separate question...my at9 dish is screwed(self tapping screws) into a 4 inch pipe that is sticking about 25ft out of the ground...I don't know how far it goes into the earth but would this suffice as a ground.


The biggest issue I think (for functionality, not safety) is to have the coax tied to the electrical ground for your house. Grounding to the water pipe is not necessarily going to do that because the water pipe would need to be attached to your electrical ground at some point. If it does, then that should help.


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## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

brott said:


> The biggest issue I think (for functionality, not safety) is to have the coax tied to the electrical ground for your house. Grounding to the water pipe is not necessarily going to do that because the water pipe would need to be attached to your electrical ground at some point. If it does, then that should help.


I believe that it is about 40 later but ya know now that I think about it it might be a separate square d box that was used for a well...I will check it out because if that's the case it has its own ground/outside meter. If so should that matter?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> Correct
> 
> The water and electric meters are about 10 feet away.
> I haven't looked inside the water/electric closet yet, but I suppose so.
> ...


If you water pipe is copper all the way out of the house and into the ground it can be used as a secondary grounding source. If it is bonded to a ground rod before that even the better. If you have access to the electrical grounding block in that closet, it would be the best place to get a ground source.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

By touching the grounding block to that piece of conduit you are in essence grounding the block. The Panel itself should be bonded to the ground and then out to your grounding rod. If your panel is right there, you can stick a piece of #14 wire from the block into the panel and right to the grounding block (or usually a screw) inside the panel. This does require you to remove the front panel. You could also find the nearest electrical box and open it up - once again, being careful - and if it's *connected via conduit*, you can put your wire to a screw within the box. There is usually one hole in the back of it that is smaller and threaded in the back. You'll just have to find a screw that fits.


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## jlancaster (Feb 10, 2006)

brott said:


> Are you starting to believe?


I am a believer!!!!!

I can't believe this worked! I now get callerid on the first ring EVERYTIME!!(so far)

Thanks Doug what a GREAT find!!


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## Michael D'Angelo (Oct 21, 2006)

My system is grounded and my CID has worked perfect since I have hooked it up. I have not disconnected my ground to see if stops working because I don't want something to start screwing up.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jlancaster said:


> I am a believer!!!!!
> 
> I can't believe this worked! I now get callerid on the first ring EVERYTIME!!(so far)
> 
> Thanks Doug what a GREAT find!!


Very good .. I suspect that it will continue to work for you now. Mine still does .. every time!

Well that's 3 people (if we can count Supervolcano  ). Anybody else?


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

The real question, will it pass the litz-mus test.


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## leww37334 (Sep 19, 2005)

This really should be a sticky, or something. There is absolutely nothing you can harm by properly grounding your system, and it may improve other problems as well. Directv should also post this on their website for people who don't know of this forum.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> The real question, will it pass the litz-mus test.


I-mus got fired...:lol:


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

leww37334 said:


> This really should be a sticky, or something. There is absolutely nothing you can harm by properly grounding your system, and it may improve other problems as well. Directv should also post this on their website for people who don't know of this forum.


It could be added to tips and tricks fairly easily with a link to the OP or the article mentioned.

VOS, are we allowed to type that anymore? :lol:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> VOS, are we allowed to type that anymore? :lol:


I guess I was up way too late with IT support & need a nap.......big time.


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## macmantis (Aug 19, 2006)

I have never had any of my satellite dishes grounded and have had zero troubles. Orignally with the HR20 we had vonage and callerID was working fine. We recently switched to DSL and POTS. Ever since callerID has not worked. Because of this thread, I went out a bought a grounding block and did a weak ground connection in the house and callerID was fixed. I wonder if DirecTV had used a grounded plug on the HR20 if they would be having this trouble.

Later,
MacMantis


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

macmantis said:


> I have never had any of my satellite dishes grounded and have had zero troubles. Orignally with the HR20 we had vonage and callerID was working fine. We recently switched to DSL and POTS. Ever since callerID has not worked. Because of this thread, I went out a bought a grounding block and did a weak ground connection in the house and callerID was fixed. I wonder if DirecTV had used a grounded plug on the HR20 if they would be having this trouble.
> 
> Later,
> MacMantis


nail...head...bingo!


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## macmantis (Aug 19, 2006)

The callerID should be followed closely on the HR20-100 because it does use a grounded plug.

MacMantis


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

macmantis said:


> I have never had any of my satellite dishes grounded and have had zero troubles. Orignally with the HR20 we had vonage and callerID was working fine. We recently switched to DSL and POTS. Ever since callerID has not worked. Because of this thread, I went out a bought a grounding block and did a weak ground connection in the house and callerID was fixed. I wonder if DirecTV had used a grounded plug on the HR20 if they would be having this trouble.
> 
> Later,
> MacMantis










Another believer!

_Off Topic_

I promised myself I'd do this, so here it is. This post # marks the year in which I was born so I'm putting a screen shot here for posterity ...










Now back to your regularly scheduled thread


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

I have both the 700 and the 100. Grounds are ok. In both I get correct logging. In neither do I get pop ups.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

brott said:


> Another believer!
> 
> _Off Topic_
> 
> ...


Sorry, Doug. This is too OT, I'm going to have to delete this and every post since this one. You can file a complaint with the Birthday Posters of America.

  

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jmschnur said:


> I have both the 700 and the 100. Grounds are ok. In both I get correct logging. In neither do I get pop ups.


Clearly and sadly, this doesn't work for every situation. Who knows, maybe your phone company isn't grounded.

Cheers,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

brott said:


> Another believer!
> 
> _Off Topic_
> 
> ...


congrats..but I would have gotten there with fewer posts....:lol:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> congrats..but I would have gotten there with fewer posts....:lol:


You mean you did get there with fewer posts .. I'd hoped to reach 2k before you reached 4k (you started @3k, I started @ 1.6k) .. jeebers you lapped me twice on that round :lol:


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## jmschnur (Aug 30, 2006)

Perhaps Verizon's use of fiber instead of copper disables caller ID for Direct TV.

Exepct of course there are copper feeds to my home from their 1977 feed.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

brott said:


> You mean you did get there with fewer posts .. I'd hoped to reach 2k before you reached 4k (you started @3k, I started @ 1.6k) .. jeebers you lapped me twice on that round :lol:


Yeah, but you got to sleep more last night than I did playing with that "fun" XP issue....:lol:


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

brott said:


> _Off Topic_
> 
> I promised myself I'd do this, so here it is. This post # marks the year in which I was born so I'm putting a screen shot here for posterity ...


Put me in for the year of the monkey also.

jmschnur, it shouldn't matter but it does. Caller id is nothing but a short data burst after the first ring that the device recognizes and displays. Something about the way the HR20 is interpretating that data requires a flawless ground apparently.


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## Garand762 (Sep 27, 2006)

My caller ID has functioned flawlessly since September when the HR20 was installed. System is well grounded and my caller ID quit working with 145 update. The last call registered by the system was just before the update.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

I know we're not supposed to talk about CE's in the regular forum, but I feel this is warranted. After not logging a single call with the last CE and being very sporadic with 145 and some other previous releases, it's now back for me with the 14f CE! YEAH! 100% logging (5/5) since the download last night and 100% pop up (2/2) when I've been in front of the tv. 

I'm not trying to diminish your work Brott, but I just think it was a little too coincidental that my CID broke right after an update. And it was right after they started working on CID that mine broke.


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## barryr (Sep 28, 2006)

After reading the early entries in this thread, and having never ever seen a CID popup since owning the HR20 when it first came out, I called D* (as an A-lister) and told a supe in Tech Support about this thread. He set me up for a free service call from the local guys to come out and ground the system. 

Guy shows up, in DirecTV van and shirt, seems to know his stuff, knows nothing about this problem. I let him read the thread, then he went up and looked at my systems (that they had installed) and said, nope, not grounded. Only problem was he said he couldn't find anywhere to ground the dish near its location; listed the usual suspects, couldn't find any. I was running short on time, so we parted friends, but I'll try again. 

Barry


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## monetnj (Sep 28, 2004)

My dish is grounded both at my electric service and via a cold water pipe. As it happens, last year my dish was either hit directly or nearby by lightning (couldn't tell, just heard a VERY loud strike that literally made me jump out of my chair) and none of my D* equipment suffered damage (it did kill some other stuff in the house, but not much considering how close the hit must have been). Despite this, I couldn't get the caller ID notice to pop-up on my brand new HR20 upstairs. It seemed to log it ok, but a bit sporadically. My brand new HR20 downstairs has always worked reliably with caller ID. 

As an experiment today, I connected my phone line upstairs to one of those in/out modem lines on my surge suppressor. Called in several times to the house line with my cell phone and the notices appeared every time on my upstairs HR20. Some of you with issues might give that a try. I'll keep everyone posted if anything further develops.


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## mtnagel (Sep 18, 2006)

monetnj said:


> As an experiment today, I connected my phone line upstairs to one of those in/out modem lines on my surge suppressor. Called in several times to the house line with my cell phone and the notices appeared every time on my upstairs HR20. Some of you with issues might give that a try. I'll keep everyone posted if anything further develops.


Wow, I never even thought of that. My UPS has that, but I don't use it. I wish you would have posted last week when my CID wasn't working. It's working perfectly now, so I'm afraid to even touch anything. I think I'll just leave it until I have problems again.


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## monetnj (Sep 28, 2004)

mtnagel said:


> Wow, I never even thought of that. My UPS has that, but I don't use it. I wish you would have posted last week when my CID wasn't working. It's working perfectly now, so I'm afraid to even touch anything. I think I'll just leave it until I have problems again.


Glad I could help. Just got my HR20 on Tuesday and this weekend was the first time I had a chance to troubleshoot. Have no idea why this works. Perhaps others could chime in and offer a possible explanation?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

monetnj said:


> Glad I could help. Just got my HR20 on Tuesday and this weekend was the first time I had a chance to troubleshoot. Have no idea why this works. Perhaps others could chime in and offer a possible explanation?


Earlier a post or two talked about floating grounds and how the chips inside electronic equipment require certain voltages to work properly, voltages that are measured relative to their ground or zero point. If the ground for the phone company is at a different level than the dish than the HR20 or worse yet, different for muliple receivers, then things will break until all the grounds get bonded to one common zero level.

In Brotts case, the phone ground was different enough from the HR20 ground that the HR20 modem chip couldn't lock in on the Caller ID data while the phone line was ringing. By tying all his grounds together correctly, the modem could capture the data.

Using a UPS on the HR20 and the phone line can ground both the HR20 and the phone line to the same zero point. Same effect.

CID phones typically only have to deal with the phone company ground, not the ground of the dish, the wall outlet, etc. so they can work properly all the time.

HTH,
Tom


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> CID phones typically only have to deal with the phone company ground, not the ground of the dish, the wall outlet, etc. so they can work properly all the time.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom


Tom.. in a "POTS" what is grounded? 
It uses 48 Volts DC on a twisted pair, so what can be grounded and not lose the 48 VDC?


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## SG24 (Jul 13, 2006)

When DTV originally installed my system they installed those little boxes with the phone jacks to hook my box to. Now both appear to be dead so CID doesn't work on my HR20 and my old HR10 never called in properly.

Any ideas on why it would just stop working out of the blue? And is that a DTV fix or a Verizon fix?

:\


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Tom.. in a "POTS" what is grounded?
> It uses 48 Volts DC on a twisted pair, so what can be grounded and not lose the 48 VDC?


Actually, POTS uses negative 48 volts as the battery, the positive side is tied to ground at the central office.

Carl


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

carl6 said:


> Actually, POTS uses negative 48 volts as the battery, the positive side is tied to ground at the central office.
> 
> Carl


Thanks...since I never worked for the phone company, I wondered..
This would mean the "phone ground" at my house is more for over voltage protection through the "carbons"?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> Tom.. in a "POTS" what is grounded?
> It uses 48 Volts DC on a twisted pair, so what can be grounded and not lose the 48 VDC?


POTS is a bit (but not much) more complicated than that. One lead is Tip the other Ring. (forgive if i'm going too basic, just trying to find the common starting point.)

Ring is tied to earth ground at the house entry point. Perhaps you've had problems with the phone lines when all you get is a hum not a dial tone. that can be a ground fault.

When phone rings, the phone company impresses 120v AC onto the phone line to activate the ringer. The CID info is buried in that 120v AC.

Once the connection is made, Tip is -48dc relative to ring and hopefully ground--and even better yet, the same ground as the HR20. 

Now, I do not know what magic the phone company uses to prevent the many different ground points from causing problems. Surely someone knows.

Cheers,
Tom


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Thanks...since I never worked for the phone company, I wondered..
> This would mean the "phone ground" at my house is more for over voltage protection through the "carbons"?


As someone who does work for the phone company, this is not the normal fix for CID troubles. It is this particular device that reacts poorly to the 2 conditions. Improper grounding and CID service. The proper grounding techniques for receiving the CID are work a rounds to a flawed device. There is probably not one phone in anyones house that has a grounded plug. And all get the CID fine. Something about the wiring in this device demands the grounding to make it work correctly.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

armophob said:


> As someone who does work for the phone company, this is not the normal fix for CID troubles. It is this particular device that reacts poorly to the 2 conditions. Improper grounding and CID service. The proper grounding techniques for receiving the CID are work a rounds to a flawed device. There is probably not one phone in anyones house that has a grounded plug. And all get the CID fine. Something about the wiring in this device demands the grounding to make it work correctly.


But phones are only grounded to the ring ground. They aren't also connected to other possible grounds that might be different: dish "ground", room ground (if the outlet isn't tied to the house ground properly), even switch ground.

Cheers,
Tom


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## thxultra (Feb 1, 2005)

Garand762 said:


> My caller ID has functioned flawlessly since September when the HR20 was installed. System is well grounded and my caller ID quit working with 145 update. The last call registered by the system was just before the update.


Same issue here. Caller id worked when I first got my hr-20 and ever sense I got the 145 update it stopped working. It worked fine on my old h20 as well. I think something in the update effected caller id.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> But phones are only grounded to the ring ground. They aren't also connected to other possible grounds that might be different: dish "ground", room ground (if the outlet isn't tied to the house ground properly), even switch ground.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


True, but this is not the first piece of video equipment that displays CID. Although I do not know enough about their history to know if this has been a common problem with all devices of this nature.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

armophob said:


> True, but this is not the first piece of video equipment that displays CID. Although I do not know enough about their history to know if this has been a common problem with all devices of this nature.


What [in my mind] keeps floating to the surface is: isn't this the first receiver from D* that doesn't use a three pronged power cord?
I've worked a long time in developing new equipment. I've seen "shooting yourself in the foot" taken to such a "fine art" that we would use small caliber bullets so as to only shoot off part of our toe [so we could repeat doing it again, and again, &...].
Here's what I'm thinking: the CID group did their work fine, but the power supply group made a change for some reason that didn't use a grounded plug. Each part works fine on the bench in the lab [been there, done that], but in final integration the "lack of" ground wasn't noticed. Some work because the chassis doesn't float high enough above ground & others do, so adding grounds will lower "the float" to a level that works.
Maybe the "thing to do" is to add a connection to the power ground [as with a three prong power cord].
I don't have CID so I can only "speculate". Take this FWIW


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

armophob said:


> True, but this is not the first piece of video equipment that displays CID. Although I do not know enough about their history to know if this has been a common problem with all devices of this nature.


I don't think anyone is claiming that the HR20 is necessarily doing it the right way. In fact, what we have seen seems to indicate that the HR20 has tolerances that to restrictive. Other devices do just fine. My old trusty SAT-T60 (which has died .. may it RIP) did not have a problem with getting Caller ID information (using a hack) and it was connected exactly the same way as my HR20s are connected now.

To me, it is clear that the HR20 needs to see a ground path that "makes sense" or it will have issues .. clearly there are folks that disagree with that statement .. but it is what I believe.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Doug: see ^^^


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## RMSko (Aug 23, 2006)

My system is properly grounded, but caller ID does not work properly. With me, caller ID ALWAYS works whenever I do a RBR, but then it stops working a day or two later and doesn't begin working again until I do a s/w update or RBR.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

My Caller ID is still going strong

I recently grounded my DISH and Coax as in the photo









The Ground Source (Green) is a standard receptacle. I connected the copper grounding wire there and you can see it come down the wall (circled in orange). I have two grounding blocks and both are tied together with a copper grounding wire. There is also a small grounding wire attached to the side of two of the Coax cables (top of the grounding blocks). This wire goes up to the dish and is attached physically to the side of the dish.

The splitter that you see is for a special application and is working exactly as desired. The splitter nor the multiswitch (off to the left in the photo) are not grounded other than via the COAX wires that are there for the Satellite signal. I am ONLY connected to the house ground. There are no other grounding rods or water pipes that I connect to .. I only connect the Satellite ground to receptacle as you see in the photo.

This may not work for everyone, but since I made this change a week and a half ago, I have gone from virtually never working to 100% success rate. I'm a believer.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I still wonder what would happen if the ground was from the HR-20 chassis to the AC ground at the wall plug [as with most of the other D* equipment] like the H-20?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I still wonder what would happen if the ground was from the HR-20 chassis to the AC ground at the wall plug [as with all of the other D* equipment] like the H-20?


Neither my HR10-250 nor my SAT-T60 (both TiVos) have a 3-prong power cord. My (now dead) SAT-T60 had a hacked Caller ID routine that worked all of the time despite my lack of grounding.

That being said, I do think that the HR20 could benefit from a solid ground via the Power Cord.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

brott said:


> Neither my HR10-250 nor my SAT-T60 (both TiVos) have a 3-prong power cord. My (now dead) SAT-T60 had a hacked Caller ID routine that worked all of the time despite my lack of grounding.
> 
> That being said, I do think that the HR20 could benefit from a solid ground via the Power Cord.


OK, I'll change "all" to "most" as what I have does, but I don't "all" of the D* product line.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm properly grounded, and my CID is out most of the time. It still logs it, but it almost never pops up on my screen anymore.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

brott,

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, *but my Caller ID is still hit n miss*, even after I finally took the time to run a 12 AWG solid copper ground wire from SWM8, to dish wire grounding block #1, to dish wire grounding block #2, to the main eletrical pipe coming out of the ground that feeds the house (on the same copper clamp the phone was grounded to by the phone company).

I've stayed out of this thread since my original posts (even though it was hit n miss back then) because I didn't run that line through the SWM and the second grounding block, nor all the way to the actual electrical input pipe, until today.

But now that I did all the work (aside from grounding the actual AU9 dish), the Caller ID is still not showing me the love that it should be.

There's no apparent rhyme or reason as to when it works or doesn't.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
:shrug:

P.S. - When it fails, it's not logging in the log or showing on-screen.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> brott,
> 
> I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, *but my Caller ID is still hit n miss*, even after I finally took the time to run a 12 AWG solid copper ground wire from SWM8, to dish wire grounding block #1, to dish wire grounding block #2, to the main eletrical pipe coming out of the ground that feeds the house (on the same copper clamp the phone was grounded to by the phone company).
> 
> ...


Have you RBR'd today?
Do you have an Ohm meter to read chassis to AC ground [wall plug]?


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I was thinking of mentioning trying to run a new phone line with shielded cable. Might be getting too much leakage into the line. Grounding could have corrected some of the "noise" by diverting it to the source. Maybe just too much electrical equipment. If you have it running along with other wires, try isolating it. I still think it has quite a bit to do with the HR20 though.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

Mine just started working again on last Thursday. Nothing changed, so software or hardware changes, it just started working again.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> brott,
> 
> I know this isn't what you wanted to hear, *but my Caller ID is still hit n miss*, even after I finally took the time to run a 12 AWG solid copper ground wire from SWM8, to dish wire grounding block #1, to dish wire grounding block #2, to the main eletrical pipe coming out of the ground that feeds the house (on the same copper clamp the phone was grounded to by the phone company).


Thanks for taking the effort .. It sounds like you are fully grounded.

You have all Coax from the Dish going through the grounding block? Is the grounding between the Dish & the SWM or between Receiver and the SWM?

If you say "yes" and then "between Dish & Multiswitch," then perhaps you can try one last thing .. Drop the ground connection between the SWM & the the grounding blocks just to see if it starts working. No reboot, just check it out.

Did any of the Coax lines zap you when you were disconnecting/reconnecting them?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Oh, and I'm sure that the problem is still related to this whole grounding issue .. correcting it, on the other hand, is by no means a simple task. If the hardware were a bit more robust inside the HR20, I don't think that this problem would persist either.


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## CHDinCT (Dec 23, 2006)

Stupid question, but if the HR-20 logs the incoming calls correctly, but doesn't pop a CID display, doesn't that indicate a software issue and not a signal issue? I'm going to check my log tonight to see if all calls are there. My caller ID has not worked but a few times since the 145 update on 3/30.


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Have you RBR'd today?


No, because that seems to make it work for a few days no matter how it was/wasn't grounded.



veryoldschool said:


> Do you have an Ohm meter to read chassis to AC ground [wall plug]?


1.2 ohms



Coffey77 said:


> I was thinking of mentioning trying to run a new phone line with shielded cable. Might be getting too much leakage into the line. If you have it running along with other wires, try isolating it.


Tried running a new line temporarily through hallway, didn't help.



Coffey77 said:


> Maybe just too much electrical equipment.


Doubt that.
I only have 8 things plugged into that wall's UPS.
TV, HR20, SWM-8, Clock, Samsung TS-160, Laptop, Air Purifier, Lamp.

Only other things even in this room are a little space heater and a network switch.



brott said:


> You have all Coax from the Dish going through the grounding block? Is the grounding between the Dish & the SWM or between Receiver and the SWM?


2 RG6 coax go from dish to grounding block #1 then to SWM.
2 RG6 coax go from dish to grounding block #2 then to SWM.



brott said:


> If you say "yes" and then "between Dish & Multiswitch," then perhaps you can try one last thing .. Drop the ground connection between the SWM & the the grounding blocks just to see if it starts working. No reboot, just check it out.


Disconnected ground from SWM.
No Caller ID.



brott said:


> Did any of the Coax lines zap you when you were disconnecting/reconnecting them?


I didn't disconnect any coax lines.
I only disconnected the ground from the SWM.
No jolts.

Back when I installed grounding block #2, I didn't touch the coax wire, so I have no idea.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

Ok so I'm embarrassed to say this but I guess I'm a big person to admit this so...

My cid had not worked since I got the box 2 months ago...I finally decided to play around with things and I realized the DSL filter was on backwards...after I switched it around I got my first CID notification ...the interesting thing though is that the reason I had not checked this sooner is that I had an HR10-250 (hacked) and its CID worked 100% of the time with the filter backwards - but not the HR20...we'll see how long it works for though


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## jstaffin (Sep 18, 2006)

moonman said:


> While I'm glad that the intermittent CID problem was solved for the OP, My
> CID problems continue to be Off/On....the incoming dish lines and the dish itself, as well as the POTS/DSL phone lines, are all properly earth grounded
> via a metal ground rod driven into the earth by the installer.


Don't be too sure, unless that ground rod that your installer put in is also bonded (wired to) the same ground as the receiver (the stuff your outlets are grounded to) they may have a different potential and a ground loop can still occur due to the differing potentials, With electronics it is important that all devices in a system share a common ground.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jstaffin said:


> With electronics it is important that all devices in a system share a common ground.


In "Blonde speak": so they don't become the ground [for everything else].


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Do you have an Ohm meter to read chassis to AC ground [wall plug]?


What kind of reading is acceptable here, btw? TIA. /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> What kind of reading is acceptable here, btw? TIA. /s


In a perfect world it would be zero.
In the real world, there will be some resistance due to the length of the wire.
Super Volcano measured 1.8 Ohms on his.
As soon as I say "X", I will be wrong, so as low as you can get & less than 5 Ohms would be my guess.

Now is the time for the posts saying this is wrong.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> In a perfect world it would be zero.
> In the real world, there will be some resistance due to the length of the wire.


My old-fashioned multitester has an ohms adjust calibration that lets me zero it out to compensate for the length of the wires. I just measured my problematic CID HR20's chassis against wall outlet screw, and chassis against sat cable connector, and both read 0 ohms. Guess I'm as grounded as I need to be, no? /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> My old-fashioned multitester has an ohms adjust calibration that lets me zero it out to compensate for the length of the wires. I just measured my problematic CID HR20's chassis against wall outlet screw, and chassis against sat cable connector, and both read 0 ohms. Guess I'm as grounded as I need to be, no? /s


"That" meter has an adjustment for your leads. When done right you should be able to measure the resistance of the wire to ground too.
In any case, it looks like you're good and the ground is near. [if you were on the right scale as zero meg-ohm or zero kilo-ohm aren't the same as zero ohms].


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> "That" meter has an adjustment for your leads. When done right you should be able to measure the resistance of the wire to ground too.
> In any case, it looks like you're good and the ground is near. [if you were on the right scale as zero meg-ohm or zero kilo-ohm aren't the same as zero ohms].


I was on the right scale. x1 ohms (vs. x10, x100, or x1000). Thx.

So now I know I've been properly grounded all along. CID *still *not working more than 12-60 hours after a reboot!  /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> I was on the right scale. x1 ohms (vs. x10, x100, or x1000). Thx.
> 
> So now I know I've been properly grounded all along. CID *still *not working more than 12-60 hours after a reboot!  /s


Getting a -100 is about all that is left.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Getting a -100 is about all that is left.


Or hoping it's not about the 3 prong plug, and there's a CID fix in the 0146 s/w that's not present in the 0x14f s/w. /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> Or hoping it's not about the 3 prong plug, and there's a CID fix in the 0146 s/w that's not present in the 0x14f s/w. /s


Well, I want a sunny day too. Maybe we'll get both soon.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

There needs to be a "data dump".
So what have we learned or seen so far?
The -100 seems to have no problems.
The -700 comes & goes with some units.
Grounding can help the -700, but not in every case. The -100 three prong plug can be duplicated with a chassis ground on the -700, which does or doesn't fix the problem.
Rebooting can make it work for a while.
The 0x146 software is only a "modified to fit" version of the 0x145.

What could this mean? 
The internal circuits of the -700 act like there could be an open collector that is floating.
RBR reset it. 
Some units may have a washer under a screw, grounding a board better than others, While the others may need the screw tightened more to make a good ground [bad board layout].
I once had a motherboard that wouldn't boot, unless I pressed down on it with my finger. This was fixed with a screw driver.
These are sealed, so no screw driver.

Well, just some thoughts as I go back to raking up leaves in the rain [and why I stopped to do this].


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> There needs to be a "data dump".
> So what have we learned or seen so far?
> The -100 seems to have no problems.
> The -700 comes & goes with some units.
> ...


Are you sure 0x146 might not have a fix that isn't in 0x145?

Guess we could add to the list that the modems in the -100 and -700 may be different models or from different OEM's.

I like your washer idea. Might be something an adventurous soul could explore further... (Doug, are you there? :lol: ) /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> Are you sure 0x146 might not have a fix that isn't in 0x145?


Earl said....cause I ain't a software guy...


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## Supervolcano (Jan 23, 2007)

FWIW - I did finally reboot the hr20 today, still no caller id


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Supervolcano said:


> FWIW - I did finally reboot the hr20 today, still no caller id


I think it's a given in your case, that there is a loose screw...:lol:

[Sorry SV but I just had to...]


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## The_Geyser (Nov 21, 2005)

I was home long enough this weekend to check grounding. Yes a loose ground connection fixed my CID! Thanks!


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> I think it's a given in your case, that there is a loose screw...:lol:
> 
> [Sorry SV but I just had to...]


:hurah: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> I think it's a given in your case, that there is a loose screw...:lol:
> 
> [Sorry SV but I just had to...]


+2


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## roconnell (Apr 9, 2007)

So in summary..what should I make sure everything is grounded?
Dish?
multiswitch?
HR20.-700 chassis ?
Any spliters ?
How bout running the phone line into a surge protector for some grounding on that line?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

roconnell said:


> So in summary..what should I make sure everything is grounded?
> Dish?
> multiswitch?
> HR20.-700 chassis ?
> ...


"I would" make sure the HR-20-700 chassis is grounded [which can be done with ground block on the coax, or @ the dish, or with a chassis screw (as they are all connected with the coax)].
Also if you can, route your phone line through a surge protector. After that ...there is no more to do.


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## Stang 38L (Jan 22, 2007)

Well after reading this, I went down and looked at my setup. It was never grounded and my caller id has never worked on my box. So I went out, bought a grounding block and installed it. My caller ID now works too! Amazing how this would cause it start working.


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## aquafuzz (Jan 17, 2007)

Stang 38L said:


> Well after reading this, I went down and looked at my setup. It was never grounded and my caller id has never worked on my box. So I went out, bought a grounding block and installed it. My caller ID now works too! Amazing how this would cause it start working.


This is sort of for all that the grounding helped. Before grounding did the 700 log any call? If so was it when it was in standby and not in live tv mode?

Im on my second 700 and both had the same problem. The CID worked fine while in standby but not while watching live tv. I forgot how far back but I use to get the "call local phone company" message but that went away with one of the CE's that I downloaded.

To date with the latest CE the CID logs in standby and not in live tv mode.

To ground the 700 are you using a screw on the back of the box and grounding it to a ground block in line with one of the sat in cables? As far as the dish mine was never grounded. What would make a good ground? As my dish is about 20ft from any outside electrical box or water line.

Thanks for all your help,

aquafuzz


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## kram (Sep 3, 2006)

I've had my HR-20 since last October and have had absolutely *no * CID problems with any software release to date -- that is, until two nights ago. Out of the blue, CID simply stopped working! I couldn't believe it. Did an RBR and that seemed to fix the problem.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

aquafuzz said:


> To ground the 700 are you using a screw on the back of the box and grounding it to a ground block in line with one of the sat in cables? As far as the dish mine was never grounded. What would make a good ground? As my dish is about 20ft from any outside electrical box or water line.
> Thanks for all your help,
> aquafuzz


Good ground:
If your coax are tight, then the ground block will ground your dish & receiver as the coax is connected to both.
You can ground the dish by attaching a wire to it [which is just what the coax shield is doing] & run it to ground.
You can use a screw on the receiver chassis to ground [again the grounded coax is doing this also as it too is connected to the chassis].

The ground point needs to be the house electrical ground.

The coax ground block is primary & the other two really won't make any difference [if the coax is tight to the other two components].


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## aquafuzz (Jan 17, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Good ground:
> If your coax are tight, then the ground block will ground your dish & receiver as the coax is connected to both.
> You can ground the dish by attaching a wire to it [which is just what the coax shield is doing] & run it to ground.
> You can use a screw on the receiver chassis to ground [again the grounded coax is doing this also as it too is connected to the chassis].
> ...


Well thats what just finished doing. And still nothing, no CID

Will back to the beginning.

Thanks


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## hlvrsn (Jun 19, 2007)

Just wanted to thank everyone for the info. Have an HR20 where the caller id never worked. Other receivers did. Grounding blocks were installed from beginning. Went out and bought an APC surge protector and ran phone line through it and caller id has been working for three weeks.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hlvrsn said:


> Just wanted to thank everyone for the info. Have an HR20 where the caller id never worked. Other receivers did. Grounding blocks were installed from beginning. Went out and bought an APC surge protector and ran phone line through it and caller id has been working for three weeks.


It kind of makes one wonder how much AC [60 cycles] was on your phone line. Humm...


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## Goodwin (Jun 19, 2007)

moonman said:


> While I'm glad that the intermittent CID problem was solved for the OP, My
> CID problems continue to be Off/On....the incoming dish lines and the dish itself, as well as the POTS/DSL phone lines, are all properly earth grounded
> via a metal ground rod driven into the earth by the installer.


IMPORTANT!
If the ground rod is not connected to the building ground, the installation violates the National Electric Code.

This provides a great opportunity for ground loops that could fry your equipment!


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## txtommy (Dec 30, 2006)

My system is also properly grounded and has been since installation. The CID problems have come and gone with new versions of software. It is working fine now but did not with the three previous CE's. Nothing has changed in my setup except for software.


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## jaybee2 (Nov 20, 2007)

I'm having Caller ID problems on a 2 week old install. I suspect that it's related to not being properly grounded.

My electrical system is from the early 1960s and is certainly out of date. I have ungrounded electrical service in that all of the outlets are the two pronged type. I see various grounding rods driven into the ground near my house with wires leading away to the various grounding connectors on cold water pipes in the basement. Closer inspection to my uneducated eye appears that they are the result of various systems that have been added to the house over the years (phone, internet, cable).

I had some electrical work done when we moved in about 10 years ago and I inquired about updating the electrical system and it sounded way too expensive (it still does!). The electrician suggested placing Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) outlets to each circuits to offer some level of safety protection.

Given my set up, I'm sure that my hopes of "grounding" the dish properly are challenging. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding how to improve my current system while avoiding potential "floating ground" situations that may create more problems than they solve?

Keep in mind that I'm only marginally informed regarding such matters and while I might be able to follow what you're talking about, the breadth of my knowledge and experience is only marginal at best. :scratchin

Thanks for any insight you can lend.


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## coleco (Nov 26, 2007)

I apologize to all if I am asking something that was explained earlier. I just don't have the time right now to go through 7 pages of posts on this subject but I got scared reading the first page or so.
Briefly, is there a way I can tell if my system is grounded. (a test, device, visual inspection, etc.) I seriously doubt that the installers grounded it at all. They were perplexed over every issue of the install including where was the roof on the house, what is a ladder for, etc. It was a disasterous 6 hour install that was supposed to take 2 hours and they left pissed after their manager came and @#$ them out. So.... I am noticing short cuts they took while here including leaving tools, spliced cable all over the place, etc. While I appreciate how hard they worked, it was clearly too big a job and I doubt they grounded appropriately. (But I could be wrong and hope I am). 


Actually I guess I could have done some searching in the time it took me to type this. But now that I did I may as well submit it. Thanks everyone.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

jaybee2 said:


> I'm having Caller ID problems on a 2 week old install. I suspect that it's related to not being properly grounded.
> 
> My electrical system is from the early 1960s and is certainly out of date. I have ungrounded electrical service in that all of the outlets are the two pronged type. I see various grounding rods driven into the ground near my house with wires leading away to the various grounding connectors on cold water pipes in the basement. Closer inspection to my uneducated eye appears that they are the result of various systems that have been added to the house over the years (phone, internet, cable).
> 
> ...


Best bet it to get a clamp for a water pipe.. ground to that..


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## HighVoltage (Nov 27, 2007)

It sounds like what everyone in the thread had been alluding towards is a common-mode voltage issue.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/2045


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## sunsfan (Jan 5, 2007)

hlvrsn said:


> Just wanted to thank everyone for the info. Have an HR20 where the caller id never worked. Other receivers did. Grounding blocks were installed from beginning. Went out and bought an APC surge protector and ran phone line through it and caller id has been working for three weeks.


I did not think this would work......ran the phone line through my APC UPS/Surge Protector and.....BEHOLD.....CID works!!!!!

This forum is the best :hurah:


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## jaybee2 (Nov 20, 2007)

sunsfan said:


> I did not think this would work......ran the phone line through my APC UPS/Surge Protector and.....BEHOLD.....CID works!!!!!
> 
> This forum is the best :hurah:


I gave that a shot and it didn't work (unfortunately) but as I've stated, I think my situation is somewhat of a challenge.

And yes, this forum _is_ the best!


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## bt-rtp (Dec 30, 2005)

Some others have posted that adding a ground connection to a multiswitch causes pixelation. This is not required or needed.

So the grounding should be limited to only the ground block and the antenna mount.


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## jaybee2 (Nov 20, 2007)

bt-rtp said:


> Some others have posted that adding a ground connection to a multiswitch causes pixelation. This is not required or needed.
> 
> So the grounding should be limited to only the ground block and the antenna mount.


As I stated earlier, as best I can tell, the only grounding going on as it relates to the Dish is a green wire from the antenna to the mast, which is a pole mount that's buried in the ground. I'll make another inspection but I believe that to be the case.

Since none of the electrical is grounded, I'm not sure how to approach getting all of the components at the same potential.


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

jaybee2 said:


> I'm having Caller ID problems on a 2 week old install. I suspect that it's related to not being properly grounded.
> 
> My electrical system is from the early 1960s and is certainly out of date. I have ungrounded electrical service in that all of the outlets are the two pronged type. I see various grounding rods driven into the ground near my house with wires leading away to the various grounding connectors on cold water pipes in the basement. Closer inspection to my uneducated eye appears that they are the result of various systems that have been added to the house over the years (phone, internet, cable).
> 
> ...


You state that updating the electrical system sounded too expensive. Consider this. The very real possibility of overloading circuits whether you may be aware of it or not and causing a fire and burning down your home with a possible loss of life. I would strongly suggest that you beg, borrow(not steal) get a loan, whatever it takes, but get your electrical system up to code, NOW! Are you willing to risk the alternative?


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## steve053 (May 11, 2007)

moonman said:


> While I'm glad that the intermittent CID problem was solved for the OP, My
> CID problems continue to be Off/On....the incoming dish lines and the dish itself, as well as the POTS/DSL phone lines, are all properly earth grounded
> via a metal ground rod driven into the earth by the installer.


I'm in the same boat as moonman. Properly grounded system, and still have intermittant CID problems.


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## Getteau (Dec 20, 2007)

pdawg17 said:


> Ok so I'm embarrassed to say this but I guess I'm a big person to admit this so...
> 
> My cid had not worked since I got the box 2 months ago...I finally decided to play around with things and I realized the DSL filter was on backwards...after I switched it around I got my first CID notification ...the interesting thing though is that the reason I had not checked this sooner is that I had an HR10-250 (hacked) and its CID worked 100% of the time with the filter backwards - but not the HR20...we'll see how long it works for though


I got my R21 earlier this week and the only time Caller ID worked was after I ran a systems test. Then, it only picked up 2 calls. After checking all my grounds, I saw this post and decided to look at my DSL filter. Sure enough, mine was backwards as well. Funny thing is that it worked fine on my R15. Hopefulluy that fixes my issue.

Long time lurker, first time poster and I just want to say you guys are amazing. Thanks for all the tips and help.


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## bakers12 (May 29, 2007)

*Getteau,*
:welcome_s to the forums!


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## coota (Apr 10, 2007)

I have an H21 and a HR20. The HR20 caller ID has worked perfectly for months, now all of a sudden it has stopped working. The H21 in the bedroom continues to work perfectly. Does anyone have any idea what the problem may be? I have checked the setup and caller ID is turned on.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

coota said:


> I have an H21 and a HR20. The HR20 caller ID has worked perfectly for months, now all of a sudden it has stopped working. The H21 in the bedroom continues to work perfectly. Does anyone have any idea what the problem may be? I have checked the setup and caller ID is turned on.


New software? My HR21-200 updated this morning to 0x255...

From: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=133241

0x0254 is for HR20-700 and HR20-100.
0x0255 is for HR21-100, HR21-200, HR21-700, HR21Pro, and R22-100.


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## frogg (Nov 18, 2005)

My cid has worked 98% of the time on HR20-100, H21-200, and HR21-200. After the installer finished with putting up the slimline, I grounded the dish and the WB68, Now, occasionally, cid quits after an update. In these cases, I do a rbr, and then, if necessary, delete all calls from the log. Sometimes deleting all calls is the only thing that gets it going again. Don't know why that is. The other problem I had with a D10 once, was the phone line polarity was reversed at the jack. Voice worked, but cid didn't until I bought a cheap phone polarity tester at RS. My grounds all go to same ground as the phone and the electric service, and I do have a POTS/DSL filter at the demarc. I really appreciate the cid feature, although I know many don't care about it all.


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## EricJRW (Jul 6, 2008)

Wow, that sounds like some very helpful intel there!

If CID did not add so much cost to my already minimal phone bill, I would love to add it... But it seems AT&T wants to add everything in bundles (at least $10 / month last time I checked) and that was just a bit too much... Maybe I should check again!

Nope: Still $10 ($9.95) a month. (but it's not bundled)


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