# Frequency Translation Module (anytime soon?)



## Proc (Jan 19, 2006)

I noticed in another thread, Earl was mentioning something about a Frequency Translation Module and the "one wire" solution.

What is the story with FTM?

Is it a product that could be on the market soon? I take it that it would eliminate multiple coax runs into the house, thus needing one coax run like cable?

That would be nice.

Any update, timing or news on this?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Would you accept... Soon?


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Would you accept... Soon?


So should a person hold off on buying a WB616 multiswitch?


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## Proc (Jan 19, 2006)

I would accept soon.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

MikeR7 said:


> So should a person hold off on buying a WB616 multiswitch?


Maybe, maybe not.

The FTM module will require you to have FTM compatible receivers. According to a post by Earl, you won't be able to mix systems - you will either be all FTM, or all non-FTM. So unless you have nothing but HR20's right now, you will probably still need the multiswitch and the indpendent wiring to each tuner.

Whether or not there will be an "FTM decoder" that you can put with a non-FTM receiver is unknown. DirecTV just hasn't released enough information yet on what is, or will be, available.

Carl


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

How soon and what equipment if any will support this? I assume the HR-20 and D-12 will, but what about the R-15? Come on Earl, spill the beans.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

carl6 said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> The FTM module will require you to have FTM compatible receivers. According to a post by Earl, you won't be able to mix systems - you will either be all FTM, or all non-FTM. So unless you have nothing but HR20's right now, you will probably still need the multiswitch and the indpendent wiring to each tuner.
> 
> ...


You won't be able to blend them on the same line... but you can certainly mix and match in a house... some FTM and some non-FTM... just you have to wire things appropriately.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cdavis said:


> How soon and what equipment if any will support this? I assume the HR-20 and D-12 will, but what about the R-15? Come on Earl, spill the beans.


I really wish I can share it all right now... but I can't...

Soon...


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Well maybe you can answer this. Is the R-15 FTM capable or FTM compatable?


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

cdavis said:


> Well maybe you can answer this. Is the R-15 FTM capable or FTM compatable?


No. Only the H20 and HR20 are currently FTM compatible. The new D12 SD Receiver will be, too.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

ARGH, did they put any amount of effort in the R-15. So there is no SD DVR option with FTM? Isn't the H20 older than the R-15? Also I was trying to get Earl to sneakily divulge some information. Compatable to me would mean an inline splitter between the multiswitch and the R-15.


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## MikeR7 (Jun 17, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> No. Only the H20 and HR20 are currently FTM compatible. The new D12 SD Receiver will be, too.


So, if I have just H20's and HR20's no multiswitch will be needed?


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

MikeR7 said:


> So, if I have just H20's and HR20's no multiswitch will be needed?


That's my understanding. But very few FTM details have been released yet.


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## manhole (Jun 9, 2006)

How soon does "soon" mean?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

manhole said:


> How soon does "soon" mean?


I be able to let you know the answer that, shortly after I identify it myself...


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## redfiver (Nov 18, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> No. Only the H20 and HR20 are currently FTM compatible. The new D12 SD Receiver will be, too.


The new D12? is that out already? Don't know if I really care about FTM since I'm already wired up, but I'd need to switch out all of my SD units if I wanted to go to FTM. I probably would make the change to FTM just to remove some of the ugly coax cables coming down from the dish and into the basement.

And, i'd have to upgrade the old SD-Tivo to a FTM device. The only one that works is the HR20, right? I'd hate to have to pay for that upgrade without having an HDTV to put it on.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Yes, the D12 is available... I will soon have the review done (not much too it... I just have to write it).

You wouldn't "have" to upgrade the SD-TiVo... all depends on how you wire things.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

cdavis said:


> ARGH, did they put any amount of effort in the R-15. So there is no SD DVR option with FTM? Isn't the H20 older than the R-15? Also I was trying to get Earl to sneakily divulge some information. Compatable to me would mean an inline splitter between the multiswitch and the R-15.


At some point, I would expect that SD-only DVRs will no longer be offered...only the HD units. The R15 may be the last one we see from D*. Manufacturing costs for HD DVRs are no longer much higher than SD, they can't command a huge price premium from customers, and having only one DVR decreases development and support costs. A customer w/o an HDTV can use the HR20 as a high-capacity SD unit (with the advantage of getting downsampled HD content if they like)...and if/when they do upgrade to HD, they won't need a new box.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Why would you need FTM for a non-DVR? With only one tuner is there any point? Picture in Picture??


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

cdavis said:


> Why would you need FTM for a non-DVR? With only one tuner is there any point? Picture in Picture??


So that you could put it on a line coming from the FTM module, rather than directly from the dish, I'd assume. The lines coming from the FTM need to know how to "talk" to it.


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

So FTM will be via a device, say a multiswitch? I thought you would be able to go from the dish to the box without anything. Is this going to eliminate wire clutter or create more?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cdavis said:


> So FTM will be via a device, say a multiswitch? I thought you would be able to go from the dish to the box without anything. Is this going to eliminate wire clutter or create more?


It is a device... but just like some multiswitches...
It can be installed outside right next to the dish.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> Only the H20 ....... are currently FTM compatible. The new D12 SD Receiver will be, too.





cdavis said:


> Why would you need FTM for a non-DVR? With only one tuner is there any point? Picture in Picture??


My thought exactly. However, one of the theories that was well discussed back when the HMC was initially revealed at CES 2005 (yes 2005  ) was that it would have a one wire solution and that the "client" boxes would be able to communicate with the server via a "new multiswitch".

Now pure speculation would seem to lead to the D12 being set up as an "SD client" for some sort of MRV system. Same with the H20 if it is in fact FTM compatible.

Of course this is all pure conjecture.


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## kenglish (Oct 2, 2004)

Sounds kinda like a "stacker" to me.

Does it do mutiple sats, too? Or, is it just for two polarizations off one sat....which would make it a "stacker"?


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## cdavis (Aug 11, 2006)

Two questions. First, I assume that FTM capable receivers will work without the FTM device. Second, if I have a mixed system (HR-20, R-15, and SD-DVR40), what type of frankenwire scheme will I have to have?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kenglish said:


> Sounds kinda like a "stacker" to me.
> 
> Does it do mutiple sats, too? Or, is it just for two polarizations off one sat....which would make it a "stacker"?


It is not a "stacker"... in any sense.
But until I can give out all the details... that is as far as I can discuss it.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cdavis said:


> Two questions. First, I assume that FTM capable receivers will work without the FTM device. Second, if I have a mixed system (HR-20, R-15, and SD-DVR40), what type of frankenwire scheme will I have to have?


I'll answer the first one...

Considering we all have HR20's that function with the current multiswitches.... you don't have to have FTM enabled, for an FTM receiver.

As for the later... hard to explain, without giving all the details out...
Soon...


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## manhole (Jun 9, 2006)

Thanks for the info Earl... I'm glad there is still some hope left for a one-wire solution.

I understand you cannot reveal much until this is announced, but perhaps you can answer one question for me. I am interested in adding a second dish for international channels. Will FTM allow me to run the signals from both the regular dish plus the international dish to a dual tuner DVR over one cable?

Thanks again!


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

manhole said:


> Thanks for the info Earl... I'm glad there is still some hope left for a one-wire solution.
> 
> I understand you cannot reveal much until this is announced, but perhaps you can answer one question for me. I am interested in adding a second dish for international channels. Will FTM allow me to run the signals from both the regular dish plus the international dish to a dual tuner DVR over one cable?
> 
> Thanks again!


Yes...


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## kenglish (Oct 2, 2004)

OK, then I 'm guessing it's something based on the UniCable or One-Liner technology  :

http://new.johansson.be/catalog/leaflet/johanss_2luik_olt0506.pdf


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

From information that has already been published and publically released...

The FTM module will come in various models capable of supporting different quantities of receivers. A "small" home based unit may support something like 6 or 8 or 10 receivers, while larger models could support an entire multiple dwelling unit (apartment or condo building for example).

The FTM capable receiver will most likely send a specific channel request to the FTM module, which will in turn send that specific channel back to that specific receiver. You won't have all of the channels (or at least all of the odd or even transponders for a given satellite) available on the coax, but rather only those specific channels that have been requested.

A single coax from the FTM module, distributed through "standard cable wiring" (including splitters) will be able to feed FTM capable receivers. There may be special splitters, some type of smart splitter, involved, but it will still support single line splitting.

Because this is totally different from existing signal distribution, an FTM fed coax obviously would not be able to support non-FTM service, and vice-versa.

I'm not sure which web site and forums I saw all of the above, but it was from information retrieved from FCC and/or patent filings. How that evolves into what is actually presented by DirecTV when they announce and release FTM is not known, but it should at least hint at how it will work.

Carl


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Is it sort of QAM by demand ? As you probably know a tuner in each receiver accept 500 MHz bandwidth QPSK modulated signal [mux] with 10-15 channels. 
I wouldn't bet that FTM module does capable to DEMUX and send one channel per request. In what form ? QAM ?QPSK ?
For me it looks like as DishProPlus technology. We will see when it will really works.


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## La Push Commercial Codman (Jan 5, 2007)

My news little toy should work, since I had to ask DirecTV and they didn't really know. Earl Bonovich will save the day.. Or will Chris Blount. Thanks .. I always learn something hear.


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## Car1181 (Mar 30, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> At some point, I would expect that SD-only DVRs will no longer be offered...only the HD units. The R15 may be the last one we see from D*. Manufacturing costs for HD DVRs are no longer much higher than SD, they can't command a huge price premium from customers, and having only one DVR decreases development and support costs. A customer w/o an HDTV can use the HR20 as a high-capacity SD unit (with the advantage of getting downsampled HD content if they like)...and if/when they do upgrade to HD, they won't need a new box.


The problem with this is that the new price structure will require you to pay the $10.99 HD fee if you activate the HR20, whether you use HD or not.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Car1181 said:


> The problem with this is that the new price structure will require you to pay the $10.99 HD fee if you activate the HR20, whether you use HD or not.


Yes, I understand, and I can see where that would negatively impact some people. Would have hit me back when I purchased my HR10-250...I ran it off a round dish + OTA combo for quite some time.

Certainly I would prefer if that fee went away and pricing was done solely by packages, with SD+HD integrated into them. But then the package fees would just go up...

Oh -- and when I wrote that, the new pricing structure hadn't been announced. Given HD "equipment" fee, I see more reason for continuing to offer the SD DVRs.


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## bpayne (Oct 25, 2004)

litzdog911 said:


> No. Only the H20 and HR20 are currently FTM compatible. The new D12 SD Receiver will be, too.


The H20 is not FTM compatible.

I would suggest to those that don't want to wait for Earl to reveal the big secret that is "FTM", just do a search and you may find all the answers to your questions.

I've seen it in action and it's not really a secret how it works or anything. It's just not really worth talking about until it is available to the general public.

It *is* everything it is cracked up to be, however- and it even emits a lemon-fresh scent when it is exposed to direct sunlight.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

bpayne said:


> The H20 is not FTM compatible.
> 
> I would suggest to those that don't want to wait for Earl to reveal the big secret that is "FTM", just do a search and you may find all the answers to your questions.
> 
> ...


The H20 hardware is compatible; the software will be someday.

One of the biggest advantages is you'll be able to use the H20, D12, or HR20 in a house with existing coax wiring, even modestly crappy stuff with splitters, etc.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

bpayne said:


> I would suggest to those that don't want to wait for Earl to reveal the big secret that is "FTM", just do a search and you may find all the answers to your questions.


I am just guessing, but I don't think the answer to: "When will it be available?" is out there.


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## bpayne (Oct 25, 2004)

You do have a point. 

I suppose late 2007 would be too obvious of a guess.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I'm betting that SWM or FTM will be announced after this past week and before Christmas. Now, I can't pin down if before or after Valentine's Day; Memorial Day; Independence Labor Day; Veteran's Day; or Arbor day. (If I left off your favorite holiday, forgive me, this was meant to be in a hurry and funny.) 

Cheers,
Tom


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

The so-far unasked question is, "How much will it cost?"


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

watch these forums for details on pricing too...(this is not a hint, not officially that is...)


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## kevandju (Jan 22, 2007)

I work for a commercial installer of DirecTV and we do mostly large campuses and condos. We currently do bulk programming and every channel analog, now with HD and the fact that we are getting some higher end customers they want more channels and everything else.

So we are almost to the point where we are going to dump DTV and go to Dish because of their QAM system. DTV's L-Band system isn't practical in a campus environment or cost effective for that matter.

So my question, is DTV and their FTM product a competitive solution to the Dish QAM system? Will FTM work in a standard cable plant that only goes up to 860mhz? Thanks for any answers on this. I know everyone is kind of vague on what it will do and all the capabilities, but I don't want to switch our whole billing system and customer service dept. if we don't have to.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kevandju said:


> I work for a commercial installer of DirecTV and we do mostly large campuses and condos. We currently do bulk programming and every channel analog, now with HD and the fact that we are getting some higher end customers they want more channels and everything else.
> 
> So we are almost to the point where we are going to dump DTV and go to Dish because of their QAM system. DTV's L-Band system isn't practical in a campus environment or cost effective for that matter.
> 
> So my question, is DTV and their FTM product a competitive solution to the Dish QAM system? Will FTM work in a standard cable plant that only goes up to 860mhz? Thanks for any answers on this. I know everyone is kind of vague on what it will do and all the capabilities, but I don't want to switch our whole billing system and customer service dept. if we don't have to.


I would highly recommend that you contact DirecTV's MDU department.

FTM is not the same as QAM, technically.
But functionally, should give you similar results.

However, you would need front-end equipment, that I just have ZERO information on. The stuff that I have seen and heard about, are definently not designed for MDU enviornments... but the "technology" of FTM, certainly is.


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## kevandju (Jan 22, 2007)

Great, thanks for the info, we have been waiting for a DTV solution that would work in a typical cable frequency range (up to 860mhz) and they have been feeding us with the L-Band stuff, not grasping that we would have to place at least 4 times the amplifiers in the field and replace every splitter and tap to pass up to 3ghz.

We are going out to meet DTV in the Denver area in early February so hopefully we can find out more then.


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## YankeeFan (Jan 31, 2006)

Hey Earl! Can you spill the beans yet? about FTM that is....


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

YankeeFan said:


> Hey Earl! Can you spill the beans yet? about FTM that is....


Not yet... I am getting closer though.


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## Reifel Tower (Oct 18, 2006)

How 'bout now?


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## TimGoodwin (Jun 29, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Not yet... I am getting closer though.


Close as maybe by the end of January?


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## YankeeFan (Jan 31, 2006)

Are we there yet???


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Before or after the SB, Bear fan?

Cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

tibber said:


> Before or after the SB, Bear fan?
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Probably after.


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## MyDogHasFleas (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm actually not just curious about this information, I'm planning a switch from Cable to DBS soon (next few weeks), and am trying to decide between Dish and DirecTV. I like DirecTV's programming better than Dish, but I like Dish's technology better than DirecTV. 

A single-cable hookup between 2-tuner DVR and sat dish is one of the things they have, as a standard with any DishPro Plus technology. They call it "bandstacking" I think. This is very attractive to me as I have a pre-wired home with only one RG6 cable per room. I don't want to have to run more cable than I have to. (The cable is 2500 MHz rated.) 

Will FTM solve this problem for me? 

Am I going to have to wait more than a few weeks before I can get an install done using FTM???

Thanks for your answers so far Earl.

By the way, the other technology advantages that Dish has with their ViP622 DVR model:

- dual outputs for 2 independent TVs (TV2 is SD)
- can record 3 shows simultaneously (2 sat, 1 OTA)
- Dish On Demand (or whatever it's called) connect to Internet via Ethernet port, and download content to hard drive for later viewing
- External hard drive via USB port


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## jediphish (Dec 4, 2005)

MyDogHasFleas said:


> By the way, the other technology advantages that Dish has with their ViP622 DVR model:
> 
> - dual outputs for 2 independent TVs (TV2 is SD)
> - External hard drive via USB port


The HR20's outputs are all live, so you can feed a second TV. It gets a little problematic if the two TVs don't have the same aspect ratio however. Also, the HR20 has eSata.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

MyDogHasFleas said:


> Will FTM solve this problem for me?
> 
> Am I going to have to wait more than a few weeks before I can get an install done using FTM???
> 
> Thanks for your answers so far Earl.


FTM will be a solution for you, but it will be more then a few weeks before you can get it installed.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

P Smith said:


> Is it sort of QAM by demand ? As you probably know a tuner in each receiver accept 500 MHz bandwidth QPSK modulated signal [mux] with 10-15 channels.
> I wouldn't bet that FTM module does capable to DEMUX and send one channel per request. In what form ? QAM ?QPSK ?
> For me it looks like as DishProPlus technology. We will see when it will really works.


What he said.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

jedi-phish said:


> Also, the HR20 has eSata.


But eSATA is not practical for all but the bleeding edge crowd until they figure out how to have the internal drive work in conjunction with the external storage. Having to maintain multiple wish lists and swap out drives as necessary so that the right drive is available for the next program is an awful lot to ask.


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## MyDogHasFleas (Jan 4, 2007)

Earl Bonovich said:


> FTM will be a solution for you, but it will be more then a few weeks before you can get it installed.


*sigh* might have to go E* for 18 months... get a free ViP622... maybe switch in 2008 if D* rolls out all their promises...


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## MyDogHasFleas (Jan 4, 2007)

jedi-phish said:


> The HR20's outputs are all live, so you can feed a second TV. It gets a little problematic if the two TVs don't have the same aspect ratio however. Also, the HR20 has eSata.


Yeah but the 2nd TV is not independent, right? i.e. both TVs have to watch the same show. That is not very useful to me. Any set-top box does this.

And, is the eSATA actually supported? It does not mention it in the user manual as being supported.


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

MyDogHasFleas said:


> Yeah but the 2nd TV is not independent, right? i.e. both TVs have to watch the same show. That is not very useful to me. Any set-top box does this.
> 
> And, is the eSATA actually supported? It does not mention it in the user manual as being supported.


That is correct. The second TV is not independet. I feed my LCD tv in my office off the HR20 on the other side of the basement. it's rare we're using that TV and I'm in my office, and with a RF remote it works.

I would love to see DirecTV come out with the Dual Output DVR's like DISH has...


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## azphi (Apr 1, 2004)

I have an install set up for Feb 15th. I really don't want to run a second coax, should I pospone?

LouPenya


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## AlbertZeroK (Jan 28, 2006)

azphi said:


> I have an install set up for Feb 15th. I really don't want to run a second coax, should I pospone?
> 
> LouPenya


Yeah, till sometime late this summer...


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## ajwillys (Jun 14, 2006)

azphi said:


> I have an install set up for Feb 15th. I really don't want to run a second coax, should I pospone?
> 
> LouPenya


You could always just live with a single tuner til FTM becomes active. Of course it probably will be awhile until FTM is a solution. But at least just using a single tuner is better than postponing the entire install. Just a thought.


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## Teronzhul (Sep 21, 2006)

Except that the current D11s are apparently not FTM compatible, meaning if he installs now he'll have to replace those if he is getting any sd receivers. He may want to wait for the D12s at least in that situation.


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## azphi (Apr 1, 2004)

Well we went ahead and installed the H20 with only one cable. It seems to be working fine, with only one tuner. I can't wait for the FTM hardware/software to be released...I haven't heard anything for a while, any news on an update?

LouPenya


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

What kind of expense are we looking at to use this technology?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

westernamerican said:


> What kind of expense are we looking at to use this technology?


The quote as something like "two tankfuls of gas" for earls car. Someone did the math at the time-"'bout a hundred dollars", as Rainman would say. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## westernamerican (Dec 14, 2006)

Are you saying we do or do not have to purchase additional equipment?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

westernamerican said:


> Are you saying we do or do not have to purchase additional equipment?


I do not know for certain. And as always, you mileage will vary around here. Many people will likely get it for free, many will not need it at all.

So we'll see. Soon? Earl? 
Cheers,
Tom


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

westernamerican said:


> Are you saying we do or do not have to purchase additional equipment?


I can answer that...

Yes, you will have to purchase additional equipment, (or it is part of your install).

As for when...

I am just waiting for the green light. 
Thread is done, and ready to go.


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## Drewg5 (Dec 15, 2006)

GREEN LIGHT I just had to...For the fun of it


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Drewg5 said:


> GREEN LIGHT I just had to...For the fun of it


OK, Earl.

LMAO


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## Scott B. (Jan 22, 2007)

"Yes, you will have to purchase additional equipment." - Earl Bonovich

Earl is there a website to see FTM equipment?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

johnyram said:


> "Yes, you will have to purchase additional equipment." - Earl Bonovich
> 
> Earl is there a website to see FTM equipment?


This is the best place--but the when is not yet known. In other words, even tho everyone knows about it (more or less), they haven't announced it so Earl can't talk about what he knows.

I'm guessing real soon, but we've been at the real soon stage for a couple of months now, alas.

Cheers,
Tom


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## DonCorleone (Jan 29, 2006)

Wow, that's a much more promising answer from Earl than I expected. I was thinking more like late Spring/early Summer based on previous posts, but looks like the light is shining.

Of course, now that I wired a 2nd line to my hard-to-reach room, I have no need for FTM (especially if there's a cost involved) since the other 2 rooms are easy to feed wire to, BUT it would be great to see a lot of people have better access to a second "line" as I know how frustrated I was when I only got 1 signal when I 1st got the HR20.


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## Scott B. (Jan 22, 2007)

I found this article searching for info on FTM. It's kind of technical but talks about the chips D* uses to take advantage of the FTM technology.

http://www.soccentral.com/results.asp?CategoryID=552&entryID=17484


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

johnyram said:


> I found this article searching for info on FTM. It's kind of technical but talks about the chips D* uses to take advantage of the FTM technology.
> 
> http://www.soccentral.com/results.asp?CategoryID=552&entryID=17484


Sometime local Search helpful also 
http://dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=55026&highlight=bcm4501


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## jscarpelli (Jan 20, 2007)

Earl,
I was reading through this thread and noticed many posts that read "soon". Well they were all in January and it is now November. When is "soon"?

Seriously though, when this does happen can I connect the FTM between my WB616 and my HR20's? I'm thinking this will be able for me to free up some lines to send off somewhere else in the future if needed.

Thanks in advance,
Joe


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

jscarpelli said:


> Earl,
> I was reading through this thread and noticed many posts that read "soon". Well they were all in January and it is now November. When is "soon"?
> 
> Seriously though, when this does happen can I connect the FTM between my WB616 and my HR20's? I'm thinking this will be able for me to free up some lines to send off somewhere else in the future if needed.
> ...


Look for SWM threads like this one: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=80686


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