# Sticky  Over-the-Air Digital Reception Issues and Discussion



## Stuart Sweet

This is a thread for general discussion of local reception issues. Some additional changes are going to be happening after July 2009, when "nightlight" stations finally turn off their analog signals.


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## RAD

They've switched from their temporary UHF assisgnment back to the VHF-Hi (Ch 7). However they're now at lower power and will be for a few weeks until a new antenna gets installed. Where I used to be able to get them on OTA tuners I can't now and even seeing occasional breakup's via DirecTV HD LIL.


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## SayWhat?

I'm between 3 DMAs and have to rotate the antenna to be able to 'see' the two others. I've seen people mention having multiple antennas pointing in different directions, but how do you connect 3 antennas to one TV/STB? Is there some kind of signal combiner?


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## PlanoEd

Is any one in the Dallas area having problems receiving 8-1 from antenna. I get 
8-2 and 8-3 from antenna. I get 8 from satellite. Thanks


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## damps

What controls a HR20/100 for OTA digital channels when they move frequency? Richmond, VA Channel 12 moved from 54 back to 12 after June 12th but their 2 OTA 12.1 and 12.2 still appear to be pointed to their temporary location as attempts to view either show "Searching for OTA signal". I have cleared and reinitialized the OTA channels several times and I have also reset the HR20/100 several times across several days without recovery. Does the HR20/100 have a rescan or are they controlled directly by some data table that may not yet be updated. I know they are working as I can see them on another tv with a converter box off of the same antenna. Not a showstopper by any means but just curious why as it was the only glitch I saw at the transition. Thanks. Andy


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## BattleZone

They are controlled by a data table that must be updated by DirecTV, based on information passed by the station to Tribune. The best path to correct any errors is to contact the STATION in question, as they are the ones with the authority to get the table updated. Calling DirecTV directly won't get you anywhere; they'll only make changes initiated by the station.


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## RAD

It looks like WWBT-DT is now on channel 12 (don't know what it was using before the analog shutdown). So the question is has DirecTV not upgraded the tables yet for your location or have they and your antenna or something else is causing reception problems (like is your antenna a VHF/UHF or UHF only)? Can you move the HR20 to the same location as the digital converter that's working to see if it's something in your home wiring?


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## damps

I am going to assume it's a data table issue. I will wait a while before trying again. I believe the issue is related to the change of frequency as all other Richmond signals off the same antenna are good on the HR20/100 and on a converter box on the same antenna everything is ok for all channels after a rescan to get new frequency. Thanks for the confirmation.


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## HIPAR

WPVI on RF6 is experiencing major DTV problems in Philadelphia. Seems that you could climb to the top of their 1000 foot tower and 'holler' farther than they can transmit. :lol:

Now, many viewers cannot receive their DTV signal while they had no problems with the analog signal. When I lived in Cherry Hill NJ, I had no problem receiving WPVI (RF6) with a telescoping whip antenna on a battery powered Sony TV. 

The transmission power levels calculated by the FCC account for the greater power efficiency of 8VSB digital waveform. So, even with lower DTV power, parity in coverage should have been maintained.

The situation puzzles me. What is wrong?

a) Is the 8VSB/NTSC power advantage only demonstrable in the laboratory
b) Is there a technical malfunction at the WPVI transmitter
c) Does the much touted impulse noise on VHF low band prevent receivers from locking on scan

Can increasing power help? Maybe in areas where viewers are receiving a signal that's breaking up. But doubling power provides 3 dB. Is 3 dB enough to go from not a trace of signal to fully locked? 

I'm thinking ABC/Disney might be in deep 'doo-doo' with the DTV transition. Apparently they are having similar problems with RF7 at Chicago. Not good in two of the four top DMA's. 

I'm glad I'm not the engineer in charge. 

--- CHAS


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## cmtar

Everything for me stayed the same, i did rescan though because my channel 9, (WTVM) is pixelated, still is after rescan.


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## SayWhat?

Atmosphere must be just right this morning. I'm getting more out of Nashville and some of the Evansville channels are even locking in reflected (antenna pointed away).


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## SayWhat?

And I'm getting a lock (about 70%) on 11.1 and 11.2 WHAS out of Louisville which is about 150 air miles.

I'm sure that won't last though.


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## hobie346

Called D* to complain about bad channel mappings for the three channels. CSR thought that I was calling to complain about the digital converter boxes and informed me that D* doesn't handle them. It went downhill after that.

Still waiting for the correct channel mapping to get downloaded.


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## waynebtx

Ch 38-1 not showing up it our loc fox.


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## Upstream

HIPAR said:


> WPVI on RF6 is experiencing major DTV problems in Philadelphia. Seems that you could climb to the top of their 1000 foot tower and 'holler' farther than they can transmit. :lol:
> 
> Now, many viewers cannot receive their DTV signal while they had no problems with the analog signal. When I lived in Cherry Hill NJ, I had no problem receiving WPVI (RF6) with a telescoping whip antenna on a battery powered Sony TV.
> 
> The transmission power levels calculated by the FCC account for the greater power efficiency of 8VSB digital waveform. So, even with lower DTV power, parity in coverage should have been maintained.
> 
> The situation puzzles me. What is wrong?
> 
> a) Is the 8VSB/NTSC power advantage only demonstrable in the laboratory
> b) Is there a technical malfunction at the WPVI transmitter
> c) Does the much touted impulse noise on VHF low band prevent receivers from locking on scan
> 
> Can increasing power help? Maybe in areas where viewers are receiving a signal that's breaking up. But doubling power provides 3 dB. Is 3 dB enough to go from not a trace of signal to fully locked?
> 
> I'm thinking ABC/Disney might be in deep 'doo-doo' with the DTV transition. Apparently they are having similar problems with RF7 at Chicago. Not good in two of the four top DMA's.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not the engineer in charge.
> 
> --- CHAS


The reports that I hear are that people just a few miles from the transmitter are having problems receiving Philadelphia channel 6. It sounds like it is more than just a power problem.


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## dorfd1

Upstream said:


> The reports that I hear are that people just a few miles from the transmitter are having problems receiving Philadelphia channel 6. It sounds like it is more than just a power problem.


the dtvanswers webstie would say those people need new antennas.


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## machavez00

Many stations that went back to VHF are running lower power while their full power transmitters are being built.


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## HIPAR

Upstream said:


> The reports that I hear are that people just a few miles from the transmitter are having problems receiving Philadelphia channel 6. It sounds like it is more than just a power problem.


The current thinking:

With some converter boxes, rescans are not replacing the old channel settings. The FCC is reporting channels are being found after two scans are performed; the first one without an antenna connected clears the memory then the second scan with the antenna connected finds the channels correctly.

--- CHAS


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## Upstream

I live about 50 miles northeast of Phila. WPVI-6 has the strongest signal I can receive from Philadelphia.


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## Link

In my parents local area, the CBS station was always the strongest on channel 10 while other stations on channnels 2 and 38 were weaker. Since the switch, 10 is using digital VHF 10 while the two others use UHF channels. With an outside antenna about 30 miles away, they all come in fine, but with an indoor antenna that picked up all 3 before the switch now only picks up the UHF ones and it is a VHF/UHF antenna. I tried a different one for them with a better design for VHF and higher amplification but still no signal at all on the VHF station...

I'm beginning to wonder if all stations should be UHF digital and do away with VHF altogether.


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## Link

HIPAR said:


> WPVI on RF6 is experiencing major DTV problems in Philadelphia. Seems that you could climb to the top of their 1000 foot tower and 'holler' farther than they can transmit. :lol:
> 
> Now, many viewers cannot receive their DTV signal while they had no problems with the analog signal. When I lived in Cherry Hill NJ, I had no problem receiving WPVI (RF6) with a telescoping whip antenna on a battery powered Sony TV.
> 
> --- CHAS


I don't understand why the #1 station in Philadephia would choose to stay on the VHF low band when I've read so many things about reception issues with it.


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## dhhaines

Upstream said:


> I live about 50 miles northeast of Phila. WPVI-6 has the strongest signal I can receive from Philadelphia.


 Strange. I'm 12 miles southeast and WPVI-6 is the only station I can't get. All other Philly stations are coming in at 60% +. Before the switchover WPVI had the strongest signal.


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## HIPAR

HIPAR said:


> The transmission power levels calculated by the FCC account for the greater power efficiency of 8VSB digital waveform. So, even with lower DTV power, parity in coverage should have been maintained.


Here's the latest coverage prediction for the Philadelphia DMA .. big file WPVI is on page 29:

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report_0609/Philadelphia_PA.pdf

Not only is coverage maintained but viewership is expanded. The decision makers at ABC most probably were swayed by these kinds of engineering studies. I believe the analysis was conducted in good faith.

So what technical parameter was in such gross error for the model? Is it real world multipath that obviously couldn't be modeled? The noise?

I would think impulse nose would generate complaints about annoying checkerboard breakups.

Notwithstanding impulse noise or RF interference during extended propagation, there's something fundamentally wrong.

_Tis a puzzlement_ 

--- CHAS


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## msmith

dorfd1 said:


> the dtvanswers webstie would say those people need new antennas.


That's what the WPVI 6 e-mail people told me.

I got analog 6 snowy but watchable on the SAME antenna just before the switch occurred. I also got WPVI-DT on the UHF channel at over 90% signal strength. Now I get 41% signal strength and it fails to lock.


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## msmith

HIPAR said:


> The current thinking:
> 
> With some converter boxes, rescans are not replacing the old channel settings. The FCC is reporting channels are being found after two scans are performed; the first one without an antenna connected clears the memory then the second scan with the antenna connected finds the channels correctly.
> 
> --- CHAS


I don't think so. I'm using a Sony LCD screen with built-in ATSC receiver. It is clearly showing frequency 6 on the diagnostics screen.


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## dhhaines

msmith said:


> That's what the WPVI 6 e-mail people told me.
> 
> I got analog 6 snowy but watchable on the SAME antenna just before the switch occurred. I also got WPVI-DT on the UHF channel at over 90% signal strength. Now I get 41% signal strength and it fails to lock.


 I honestly don't think it's an antenna problem. I have a VHF/UHF antenna that when I rotated it I could pull in both NYC and Philly stations on the old analog VHF frequencies. I can't get any signal from the "new" WPVI-DT signal at all.:nono2: ALL other Philly and even Atlantic City are coming in above 60%. There is interference or something with WPVI's signal.


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## Upstream

On the other hand, I am near New Brunswick, and my Sony flatscreen shows about 70% signal strength on WPVI when I point my antenna (attic antenna) toward Philadelphia. I can't get digital channel 3 at all. and on channel 10 the HD channel (10.1) breaks up while the non-HD subchannels are fine.


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## HIPAR

They turned their pretransition UHF transmitter back on!

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/dtvconversion/BO116478/

--- CHAS


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## Kenkong586

I'm having issues with dolby digital sound from OTA. On some channels (not all) the audio cuts in and out via Coaxial to surround sound. If I listen via tv speakers through HDMI, no sound issues at all. The video is flawless even with the sound issues. I'm not sure if it's the coaxial output from the tv or reception. If it is reception, all the levels seem fine and as previously stated, video is flawless. Any thoughts or advice?


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## William1

Here in Richmond VA, channel 12 (WBBT) is staying on VHF 12 at a low power of 6 Kw (I think). Not sure of the particulars but many are not getting a signal at all and should be, appears to be a signal radiation issue. I know they and the FCC are working on it.
I've spoken wit the FCC and was told that several major markets are experiencing the same problems (Boston, Chicago and others) also.


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## William1

dhhaines said:


> Strange. I'm 12 miles southeast and WPVI-6 is the only station I can't get. All other Philly stations are coming in at 60% +. Before the switchover WPVI had the strongest signal.


This is about the same scenario we are having here with ch12


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## sat4r

PlanoEd said:


> Is any one in the Dallas area having problems receiving 8-1 from antenna. I get
> 8-2 and 8-3 from antenna. I get 8 from satellite. Thanks


I live west of the DFW metroplex and 8-1 comes in well for me, new antenna installed after last years hail storm.I dont receive 4-2 Fox radar however 4-1 comes in strong.Is Foxes radar channel down?


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## Jim5506

All subchannels on any one main channel are carried on the same carrier (to be repetitive), so if the signal the station is transmitting is properly multiplexed, you will receive all subchannels with the same picture quality and same signal strength.

A missing subchannel indicates the station has a problem in their multiplexer. Some digital tuners may be able to decode even a crappy signal, evidently yours cannot.

I'd call the station and tell them you see 8.2 and 8.3 but not 8.1 and see if they eventually fix it. They probably will not admit to any error on their part, but plant the seed in their minds anyway.


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## Mrmiami

Link said:


> I don't understand why the #1 station in Philadephia would choose to stay on the VHF low band when I've read so many things about reception issues with it.


We have the same problem here in Albany, NY with the same channel number (6 WRGB) they were on channel 39 before the change over on 6/12 but then switched back to VHF Low Band 6 now at 13 miles from the tower 771 searching for signal!!! Before the switch 100% pinned at all times with zero problems on channel 39 assignment. Now were being told because it's low band 6 we need to add another "special" low band antenna because the antennas that were "specifically" designed for digital TV start at channels 7-69. What a bright idea huh? The reasoning behind it, if you can call it that is because we are more or less surrounded by mountains the VHF Low signal can better reach into those mountains so the suburb dwellers can receive WRGB's signal. It also gives the channel the ability to do it at less power and utilize some of the equiptment they already had in place for the analog signal.....hmm, NOW I think were getting a little closer to the "REAL TRUTH" it saves them money!!! Why else could you justify catering to a population of 20 homes per square mile vs 600 per square mile in the urban setting. What pisses me off the most though is that when Digital TV was initially purposed and approved *ALL DIGITAL TV BROADCAST WERE TO BE DONE IN THE UHF SPECTRUM ONLY AND THAT IS HOW DIGITAL READY ANTENNAS WERE DESIGNED.* Once broadcasters stopped stomping their feet, dragging their heals to make the changeover (it was a fight they couldn't win) they thought of ways they could save the extra funds by using current equipment in the VHF spectrum. Waivers were granted by the FCC thus throwing the additional cost of having to add another antenna or duel antenna back to the consumer. Now they have taken this even one step further by using the VHF LOW Band so gone are the days of only having to add one ugly appendage to your roofline, theres just no way around it now, if you want that additional one or two extra low band channels, you'll have to add a second antenna, joiner/combiner, extra coax and yes......extra cost.


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## Upstream

Mrmiami said:


> What pisses me off the most though is that when Digital TV was initially purposed and approved *ALL DIGITAL TV BROADCAST WERE TO BE DONE IN THE UHF SPECTRUM ONLY AND THAT IS HOW DIGITAL READY ANTENNAS WERE DESIGNED.*


I don't think that is true. I'm pretty sure that the intent always was to make use of VHF and UHF frequencies once the digital transition was complete.

But most VHF stations got temporary UHF frequencies to simulcast digital signals while continuing to transmit analog signals on their VHF frequencies. So before the final transistion, while analog channels continued to use the VHF frequencies, all of the digital stations were on temporary assignment on UHF.

Some antenna companies and retailers, in order to make an extra buck, started selling special "Digital Antennas" and told customers that they needed to replace their existing antennas. Those "digital antennas" were UHF-only antennas, because they were cheaper to make and ship, and because they looked very different from the typical VHF antenna that people had. The different looking antenna reinforced the perception that your old antenna was no longer sufficient.

But the intent always was for digital stations to occupy both VHF and UHF frequencies. And in some markets, where a VHF frequency was available, those VHF frequencies were assigned for digital broadcast even before the final transistion. In the New York market, for example, WNJB was assigned Channel 8 for its digital broadcast in May 2001, and they continued to broadcast analog on their original channel 58. After the final transition, they turned off their analog channel 58, and continued digital on channel 8. So they are a station that actually moved from UHF to VHF.


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## Jerry Springer

Upstream said:


> On the other hand, I am near New Brunswick, and my Sony flatscreen shows about 70% signal strength on WPVI when I point my antenna (attic antenna) toward Philadelphia. I can't get digital channel 3 at all. and on channel 10 the HD channel (10.1) breaks up while the non-HD subchannels are fine.


Attic antennas do not work well with the new DTV UHF reception.

Even a piece of flashing 6 inches wide will block the signal.

Although the building materials will not block the signal from going through the walls of the house. The moisture on top of the roof and the moisture under the shingles and the moisture in the wood will. A plastic vent stack will not block the signals, but the moisture inside of the pipe will.

UHF is line of sight.

If you really want to receive it, you have to mount your antenna outside of the house and as high up as you can get it. About 10 feet higher than the highest thing in your neighborhood works best.

Trees, leaves on trees, buildings more than 4 stories tall, hills and mountains will all block UHF signals.

You also have to use a large UHF / VHF antenna if you live in a fringe area.

Pre amplifiers are a must if you wish to connect more than two televisions or if your antenna wire is more than 50 feet long.


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## Jerry Springer

Kenkong586 said:


> I'm having issues with dolby digital sound from OTA. On some channels (not all) the audio cuts in and out via Coaxial to surround sound. If I listen via tv speakers through HDMI, no sound issues at all. The video is flawless even with the sound issues. I'm not sure if it's the coaxial output from the tv or reception. If it is reception, all the levels seem fine and as previously stated, video is flawless. Any thoughts or advice?


Most televison stations are not done switching their equipment from analog to digital and some are still transmitting on temporary transmitters and on temporary towers.

After the switch is complete, some stations reception will get better and as their transitions complete, some stations problems with break ups will either get worse or better.

Some old analog television programs do not translate well to digital and you get blocks in the pictures, blurred pictures and start and stop audio.

Some converter boxes such as the Zenith DTT 900 has internal clock problems where the sound doesn't always match the picture.

At this point, there isn't much that can be done about it.


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## scooper

Mrmiami said:


> *ALL DIGITAL TV BROADCAST WERE TO BE DONE IN THE UHF SPECTRUM ONLY AND THAT IS HOW DIGITAL READY ANTENNAS WERE DESIGNED.*


And that statement RIGHT THERE is completely wrong, it was NEVER intended to be only UHF for several years now. There are between 400- and 500 (maybe as many as 600) stations now broadcasting on VHF digitally, to varying degrees of success. There have been several places where you could have found out "the truth" (AVSForum being a prime source) (Antennaweb.org another). If you blindly believed the advertising about only needing a UHF antenna and didn't check it for yourself - I'm sorry - now go fix your problem.

Screaming and arguing about it is not going to help.


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## n3ntj

Anyone else out there in the Harrisburg or Phily areas having issues with OTA reception of several channels? I can get WCAU 10.2 fine, but get only 771 on 10.1. Same for WGAL 8.1 and 8.2. The subchannel 8.2 comes in fine, but only 771 on 8.1.

I get all of these stations perfectly fine (90%+) on the TV's ATSC tuner. I rebooted numerous times and even reset the OTA setup and started over.

I can't get WPVI 6.1 at all (HR20 or TV's tuner).. I guess the 30 kW power level they are now at, still doesn't reach me. I even built a wire dipole for ch 6 (85 MHz).


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## rlgold88

I have an issue for my local Fox 2 from ota. I have an antenna on the house I have it split 7 different ways first to a 4 way splitter from there 

1 out goes directly to Hr20-100 no signal for fox 2 (searching for signal)

another out goes to a 3 way splitter for TV, Hr20-700 and Hr20-100 reception great 

next out goes to a 2 way splitter for a HDTV Box and an digital converter box Both have NO signal for fox 2 only. tried another splitter same issue. other channels great reception

Last out goes to an HDTV great reception.

All other local channels reception are in the 90's-100 including Fox 2 on the components I have reception. Fox 2 is the only channel that gives me the issue on some of my equipment.

What do you think is my problem? 
any suggestions appreciated
Thanks Rob


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## Jim5506

We need your location (TVFool report), antenna, coax run lengths and any pre-amps you are running?

What is the RF channel of FOX 2?


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## rlgold88

Jim5506 said:


> We need your location (TVFool report), antenna, coax run lengths and any pre-amps you are running?
> 
> What is the RF channel of FOX 2?


here is the info fromtv fools







Not sure if the above link is going to work but this is the tvfool report.
Fox 2 Transmitter Profile Detail
WJBK-DT (Digital)
Channel: 7 (2.1)
Network: Fox
Maximum ERP: 27.200 kW
Coordinates: 42.460591 -83.213817

NOTE: The vertical dimensions in this profile have been exaggerated in order to make the terrain features more visible. This is merely an approximation based on the information available from the FCC database.

Effective ERP: 25.182 kW (Adjusted according to your location)
Distance: 7.8 miles Azimuth: 213 degrees Compass: 220 degrees

Distance from antenna to ground block 30-35 ft est 
from ground block to 4 way splitter 10 ft
the outs from the 4 way are from 10 smallest length to 50 largest length

On the equipment I get fox 2 in they show a reception sterength of 95-100 but receive no signal on other equipment weird.
Thanks for the help 
Rob report from tv fools try this one http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=74fa802d74c729


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## Jim5506

Try swapping some connections, move the Hr20-100 to the connection on the 4 way splitter that goes to the HDTV.

You might also swap the receivers around, move the Hr20-100 that gets no signal to the connection where the other Hr20-100 does get signal.

The results of these little experiments might give us some clue of what is happening.


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## harsh

You have split the signal far too many times before it gets to the TV and converter. It isn't how many outlets you create but a decided cutting down of the signal with each splitter.

The first splitter leaves you with about 20% of the antenna signal on each leg. The 3-way leaves you with 5% of the signal and the 2-way nets you about 2% of what the antenna is putting out. Putting in more splitters multiplies the reduction in signal as opposed to being additive. 20% (4-way) X 25% (3-way) X 40% (2-way) = 2% (remaining signal a round-number WAG based on insertion loss and other inefficiencies).

As a test, you could try coupling in a cable directly from the antenna to the devices that don't seem to be working and see if it is indeed signal loss that is the problem. At your distance, there may also be some multipath issues or problems with your cabling network acting like an antenna (creating other multipath issues)

The failure on the DIRECTV equipment is a discussion for a DIRECTV forum as there are other issues involved with being able to receive a channel or not. There you could check the signal using the DTV converter.


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## Tower Guy

rlgold88 said:


> I have an issue for my local Fox 2 from ota.
> 
> What do you think is my problem?


FM interference.


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## rlgold88

Thanks guys
I tried one of the converter box to a direct line from the 4 way splitter. where the tv is connected TV gets Fox 2 100 percent reception 
after connecting the converter box to tv I still did not get Fox 2 2-1 in (no signal) but all other channels 100 percent reception. 
I reconnected ant cable to TV and fox2 is back on 100 % reception along with all the other locals.

I understand that for each splitter I will lose db all the splitters are of decent quility and cable and connections are excellent quility. I have great reception on all channels except for Fox2 from the equipment that dont see that signal. The equipment that see the Fox 2 signal show 100 pecent. 



I just dont know why only that one channel is a problem. 
I guesse my next step is to take out all splitteres and go directly to the equipment that dont get the reception on fox 2 and see if that works? Or do you suggest something else?
Thanks Rob


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## SayWhat?

I'd try cable straight from the antenna to each of the problem devices even if it means laying it out across the floor temporarily.

Avoid conventional splitters. Use powered distribution amps in your case. They can split the signal with no loss, maybe even some gain.


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## rlgold88

I went directly from antenna (by passing all splitters) to the compnents that dont get fox 2. They still had an issue. 
So I put splitters back and just for the heck of it I decided to reset channel search on the converter and HDTV box and for some reason that was the trick because I get Fox 2 in with 100% Now I have reset numerous times and it didnt work but this time it worked????
Next I reset the HR-20 and I now get 2-1 but the sub 2-2 gets (searching for signal).

Now what is strange is I have reset those numerous times this time it worked.

I guesse some of the boxes are finikie. 

Thanks for the help
Rob


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## nnnn3950

before the dtv switch I received all the over the air channels on my dtv converter box. 3.1, 5.1, 7.1, 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 15.1, 45.1. 61.1

After that the analog signal went out so did half the stations. 8.1, 10.1, 12.1 and recently 5.1. 

I read about digital ready antennas being the problem. but it still doesn't explain why I lost those station and had them before.

Any ideas?


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## CCarncross

nnnn3950 said:


> before the dtv switch I received all the over the air channels on my dtv converter box. 3.1, 5.1, 7.1, 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 15.1, 45.1. 61.1
> 
> After that the analog signal went out so did half the stations. 8.1, 10.1, 12.1 and recently 5.1.
> 
> I read about digital ready antennas being the problem. but it still doesn't explain why I lost those station and had them before.
> 
> Any ideas?


Do you have a strictly UHF antenna or a VHF/UHF model? Did any of your stations change to VHF? YOu might want to check at antennaweb.org or tvfool to see what changed.


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## n3ntj

I've given up on getting WPVI 6.1 from Philly. I've tried several VHF antennas, including 2 that I built tuned specifically for 85 MHz. One has approx. 6.2 dB gain and I get no PSIP info about 70 miles west of Philly. WPVI raised their power to 30 kW and still no go. Not sure if the power increase has helped the large majority of people closer to Philly that still couldn't get the WPVI signal. I think the only chance I still have is if WPVI decided to go back to UHF. The Philly UHF stations are much stronger here (with a UHF antenna, of course).


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## nnnn3950

CCarncross said:


> Do you have a strictly UHF antenna or a VHF/UHF model? Did any of your stations change to VHF? YOu might want to check at antennaweb.org or tvfool to see what changed.


I have a VHF/UHF antenna. I live 80 miles from the stations towers. But on antennaweb.org it says I only get channels 7.1. I get more then what they say. I contacted FCC to try to find out what was going on they said I should be thankful for what i have. But like I said I got those channels perfectly fine before they turned off analog and again those are DTV Channels and not analog channels. That's what puzzles me.

What about there reception strength?


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## n3ntj

When did Antennaweb.org change from listing the stations you may get to only showing the very local stations? I am near Phily, Baltimore, and DC and can get many of these stations OTA, in addition to those in my market (Harrisburg/Lancaster, PA). Now when I use antennaweb.org, however, only the Harrisburg stations show up on their list.


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## CCarncross

nnnn3950 said:


> I have a VHF/UHF antenna. I live 80 miles from the stations towers. But on antennaweb.org it says I only get channels 7.1. I get more then what they say. I contacted FCC to try to find out what was going on they said I should be thankful for what i have. But like I said I got those channels perfectly fine before they turned off analog and again those are DTV Channels and not analog channels. That's what puzzles me.
> 
> What about there reception strength?


Most likely what has happened is they are operating at a much lower power than they were b4 the analog cutoff...Several of my stations are actually operating at lower power than b4 they cutoff the analog signal...


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## ChrisPC

D* finally updated their channel mapping for Nashville. They added the new ThisTV subchannel on 5.3.


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## Jerry Springer

The way that the FCC designed the power limitations of the new DTV is that the reception range is about 60 miles.

In the analog days there were two effectively transmitters for the TV 
station.

A transmitter for the video and a transmitter for the audio.
The video transmitter was Amplitude Modulation see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC

The audio was FM at a much lower power.

The reason that the video was a higher power is that AM is more susceptible 
to noise requiring a stronger signal at the receive and a higher power 
output of the video transmitter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_station
"In North America, full-power stations on band I (channels 2 to 6) are 
generally limited to 100 kW analog video (VSB) and 10 kW analog audio (FM), 
or 20 kW digital (8VSB) ERP. Stations on band III (channels 7 to 13) can go 
up by 5dB(W) to 316 kW video, 31.6 kW audio, or 63.2 kW digital. Low-VHF 
stations are often subject to long-distance reception just as with FM. 
There are no stations on channel 1.

UHF, by comparison, has a much shorter wavelength, and thus requires a 
shorter antenna, but also higher power. North American stations can go up 
to 5000 kW ERP for video and 500 kW audio, or 1000 kW digital. Low channels travel further than high ones at the same power, but UHF does not suffer from as much electromagnetic interference and background "noise" as VHF, making it much more desirable for TV.

Despite this, in the U.S., the FCC is took another large portion of this band (channels 52 to 69) away, in contrast to the rest of the world, which has been taking VHF instead. 

This means that some stations left on VHF will be harder to receive after the analog shutdown". 

UHF communications are more "line of sight" communications than lower 
frequency VHF.
It is sort a like having a sound vs a light. 
If you make sound it radiates in all directions, around buildings, through walls, down into holes (valley).

Shining a light does not go around corners or through walls and if it is a 
pinpoint light it doesn't go down into the valleys.

The earth is round and eventually the beam of light, UHF TV the beam will 
no longer touch the earth but go up into the sky.

Here is some information concerning line of sight and how it effects TV
http://www.softwright.com/faq/support/earth_curvature_values.html

http://www.ian-ko.com/ET_Surface/UserGuide/ETS_LOS_Discussion.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon

The height of the transmitting antenna is factored into the power output of 
the TV station.
The power output for TV & FM is rated in ERP (Effective Radiated Power)
There are a number of factors the go into this calculation.
Several Key items are:
Height of Antenna. listed both as HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain) and 
AMSL (Height Above Mean Sea Level)

Gain of antenna: Just like your receiving antenna has gain in db so does 
the transmitter.
Remember 3db gain is equivalent to doubling the output power. or 1/2 the 
electric consumption expense.

Silly people who live around Philadelphia and watched analog television and does not understand how digital television works will always be disgruntled and wonder why I cannot receive this station anymore.

The power of the digital station is lower than the analog because the digital is going to take up more available channels - some for the real station and some for the translators and the FCC took away a large part of the useable bands for reception.

The goal is to have as many channels as possible in as small a space as possible.

With all the cell phones and pagers and WIFI, police, fire, news something had to give up some of it's bandwidth to allow more space for the other mobile communications. So you gained some telephone service and you lost some television service. That's all well and good for important people who HAS to have cell phone, but does nothing for a person like me - who doesn't give a damn if all the cell phones in the world stopped working today!

I cringe everytime I see a young person walking around with a cell phone to their ear, like they are someone important. The world is full of idiots.


----------



## Jerry Springer

Here is a calculator for Friis Transmission Equation

http://www.random-science-tools.com/electronics/friis.htm

Enter in transmit power, transmit antenna gain, receiver antenna gain, received power, range, frequency and wavelength and it will tell you how much power you can expect to receive at your location.

The numbers on the edge of the report - which is generated by your address and antenna height on the TV Fool report is a generalized estimation of how much power you can expect to receive at your location.

Once you get past -80 nm (db) - you can pretty much forget it!

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90


----------



## n3ntj

Is anyone in the Philly market having problems receiving WYBE (35.x) using an HR20-700? I can receive it at 80%+ on my tv's tuner but only get 771 message (no signal) on the HR20. The other Philly stations I can get on the tv tuner, I can get on the HR20-700.

I wonder if the HR20-700 isn't mapping WYBE correctly. This has been going on for months.


----------



## BernieL

I am in the Atlanta Area and use an OTA antenna as well as subscribe to Dish Network locals. In Atlanta, the guide shows almost exclusively the main channel, e.g., XX.1. The other subchannnels just say DTV service. A friend in Panama City, Florida gets almost all the subchannel information on the Dish Guide in his area. Does anyone know why Dish does not show subchannels in a major city like Atlanta, but does so for a smaller city in Florida?


----------



## Jerry Springer

n3ntj said:


> Is anyone in the Philly market having problems receiving WYBE (35.x) using an HR20-700? I can receive it at 80%+ on my tv's tuner but only get 771 message (no signal) on the HR20. The other Philly stations I can get on the tv tuner, I can get on the HR20-700.
> 
> I wonder if the HR20-700 isn't mapping WYBE correctly. This has been going on for months.


Everyone in the Philly market is having problems with the DTV transition.

If you go up the page and read what I posted, you will see how the signal is transmitted.

A polite way to explain why you are having problems is due to the fact that WPVI is on real channel 6. The power level is 30.20 Kw

WZPA is even worse on channel 2 with a .045 Kw.

WHYY is on channel 12 - at 20 Kw

For the most part, all the other stations is on UHF.

If you lived in downtown Philly, you would have about 45 gettable stations, if you had a antenna that was a large antenna that was higher then everything else around you. For the most part, there is no co channel interference. But there is enough adjacent channels that multipath plays havoc with your signals.

Anytime you have a building that is more then 3 stories high between you and the signal, you will have problems trying to receive the signal.

Yes the power level is down from the analog signal, but it does not take as much power to transmit as far with digital as it did with analog. Again - look at my previous post.

UHF does not go through steel reinforced concrete very well if at all.

The FCC knows that there is a problem, but there is no short term solution to the problem. VHF - especially around channel 6 is affected by FM radio signals in the same area in about the same frequency as the television signals. There is no way to use a pre amplifier in the Philly market.

The only advice I can give you is to forget everything you knew about analog television and listen to anyone that has experience with digital communications and do what they say.

Put your antenna outside, at least 10 feet above the main roof of your house.

Point the antenna directly at the market you wish to receive.

Use a large antenna, not something that looks like it came in a box of cereal.

Use the best RG 6 coax you can get your hands on and the best F type crimp on terminals.

Good Luck!

For all the apartment dwellers who lives on the wrong side of the apartment building, sorry - but you are out of luck!


----------



## Jerry Springer

BernieL said:


> I am in the Atlanta Area and use an OTA antenna as well as subscribe to Dish Network locals. In Atlanta, the guide shows almost exclusively the main channel, e.g., XX.1. The other subchannnels just say DTV service. A friend in Panama City, Florida gets almost all the subchannel information on the Dish Guide in his area. Does anyone know why Dish does not show subchannels in a major city like Atlanta, but does so for a smaller city in Florida?


My brother was down there for two months doing a job at a local power plant and he said that the main cable channels did not show the sub channels.

He also said that when he did a rescan of the digital television, he picked up the sub channels when he was down in Florida. Crystal River

The reason why all cable companies do not carry the sub channels is due to the fact that there is only so much bandwidth available to the cable companies to use for transmission of cable television.

Instead of wasting that bandwidth on channels that they could never recoup their investment, most cable companies choose to only carry the most important local channels to keep more room for all the home shopping network channels that does pay to be on air.

Just like you might have read for my advice for the op that lives in the Philly area, if you have 48 - 52 gettable channels in the area, how many of them are you going to be willing to carry on your program schedule? There is only so much room, especially when you count the High Def signals that they are broadcasting simulcasting while the standard definition channels are running the same program side by side.

In time, Standard definition will be dropped and everyone will be forced to pay for the High Def channels, if they want them or not.

If you want to watch the sub channels, I would suggest that you spend the money to purchase a good television antenna and wire and build your own system for local programming. That's what I did and I can tell you that the Sat Dish is hardly on anymore.


----------



## n3ntj

*OTA -Philadelphia, PA DMA*

Can anyone in the Philly market with the HR20 tell me if they have issues with WYBE?

I can't get WBYE-DT 35.x channels on my HR20-700 although these stations show a 90% signal strength on my tv's tuner and are watchable there. Same antenna connected to the TV and HR20. I only get 771 on the HR20. This has happened for a while. Rebooting and redoing the OTA setup doesn't fix it. Any idea if this is a mapping issue on my HR20? How do I get D* to see if this is a mapping issue?


----------



## Jerry Springer

Here is a evaluation by PC Magazine
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2096897,00.asp

Basically it is not without its faults.

Signal strength has nothing to do with reception due to the fact that no manufacturer calibrates their signal strength meters to other manufacturers or even posts what it is equal to in DBI or DBM..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBm

My guess is that either your television antenna is too small or not directional enough or not mounted in a proper place or pointed in the right direction.

Can you give us a TV Fool report and address so we can look at your reception issues.

We also need to know the make and model and year of the antenna you are using, Which type of amplification - if any and splitters and wire used in your system.

You are there and I am here and there is no way for me to guess what it wrong with your set up.

One other guess is multipath, where more then one signal - of the original signal is reaching the tuner at the same time.

As we all know, with a digital signal, all being ones and Zero's, if you corrupt the data coming into the tuner, it is worse then having no data at all.

Are you sure that you are talking about WBYE - that is a AM radio station 1370 - Calera, Alabama, USA

WYBE is not all that powerful, at 450 Kw, but it is a UHF station and could probably be received on a paper clip.


----------



## machavez00

lost KAET 8.1 and sub channels (no longer in guide) after resetting OTA. I did a reset because I was getting searching for signal for 7.2


----------



## Jerry Springer

machavez00 said:


> lost KAET 8.1 and sub channels (no longer in guide) after resetting OTA. I did a reset because I was getting searching for signal for 7.2


So what is your question?


----------



## machavez00

just saying


----------



## n3ntj

Jerry Springer said:


> Here is a evaluation by PC Magazine
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2096897,00.asp
> 
> Basically it is not without its faults.
> 
> Signal strength has nothing to do with reception due to the fact that no manufacturer calibrates their signal strength meters to other manufacturers or even posts what it is equal to in DBI or DBM..
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBm
> 
> My guess is that either your television antenna is too small or not directional enough or not mounted in a proper place or pointed in the right direction.
> 
> Can you give us a TV Fool report and address so we can look at your reception issues.
> 
> We also need to know the make and model and year of the antenna you are using, Which type of amplification - if any and splitters and wire used in your system.
> 
> You are there and I am here and there is no way for me to guess what it wrong with your set up.
> 
> One other guess is multipath, where more then one signal - of the original signal is reaching the tuner at the same time.
> 
> As we all know, with a digital signal, all being ones and Zero's, if you corrupt the data coming into the tuner, it is worse then having no data at all.
> 
> Are you sure that you are talking about WBYE - that is a AM radio station 1370 - Calera, Alabama, USA
> 
> WYBE is not all that powerful, at 450 Kw, but it is a UHF station and could probably be received on a paper clip.


Yes, indeed I am talking about WYBE-DT 35.1 (w/ 3 subchannels) from Philly. They transmit on RF channel 34. I just find it strange that I can get a 85~90% signal on my TV's ATSC tuner and then unplug the RG-6 out of the TV and plug it into the HR20's ATSC tuner and get no signal (only 771). The antenna is a homebrew UHF yagi antenna that I built and tuned using an HP Network Analyzer at work. I am an RF Engineer. There was no null at the ch. 34 freqs and I did try another length of RG-6 just to see if somehow the coax length was resonant at the ch 34 freq.

I can get the various other UHF Philly digital TV stations (except for 61.x) with signals ranging from about 60%~100% on the TV and HR20's tuners. I have a 20dB gain amp in line b/w the UHF antenna and TV/HR20.

I have the antenna tweaked for max signal for the Philly stations (since most of them are all in the same location). Again, since I get an 85~90% signal on my TV's ATSC tuner (it is maxed out regarding it's aiming for max signal), I don't think it's an aim issue as to the 771 on the HR20. Due to the performance on the TV's tuner, I can think of nothing to explain the 771s other than a crappy tuner in the HR20.


----------



## Jerry Springer

n3ntj said:


> Yes, indeed I am talking about WYBE-DT 35.1 (w/ 3 subchannels) from Philly. They transmit on RF channel 34. I just find it strange that I can get a 85~90% signal on my TV's ATSC tuner and then unplug the RG-6 out of the TV and plug it into the HR20's ATSC tuner and get no signal (only 771). The antenna is a homebrew UHF yagi antenna that I built and tuned using an HP Network Analyzer at work. I am an RF Engineer. There was no null at the ch. 34 freqs and I did try another length of RG-6 just to see if somehow the coax length was resonant at the ch 34 freq.
> 
> I can get the various other UHF Philly digital TV stations (except for 61.x) with signals ranging from about 60%~100% on the TV and HR20's tuners. I have a 20dB gain amp in line b/w the UHF antenna and TV/HR20.
> 
> I have the antenna tweaked for max signal for the Philly stations (since most of them are all in the same location). Again, since I get an 85~90% signal on my TV's ATSC tuner (it is maxed out regarding it's aiming for max signal), I don't think it's an aim issue as to the 771 on the HR20. Due to the performance on the TV's tuner, I can think of nothing to explain the 771s other than a crappy tuner in the HR20.


I guess I didn't cover that subject on this forum.

Not all tuners are the same and not all signal strength meters are the same because there is nothing to calibrate one against the other and the manufacturers are not held to any standard when they install a signal strength meter in their tuner.

If you have the equipment, you might want to do a field survey and find out just how much signal is available at your location.

Type in the address in a TV Fool Report and send me the coordinates for your home location and the height of antenna and I will take a look at it if you want. I am not saying that I am any more educated then you are. All I am saying is that 4 eyes are better then 2.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

As far as a cheap converter box goes, I have had very good success with the Channel Master CM 7000 and the Zenith DTT 900 - 901

But neither of them are still being made or sold by the manufacturer. When the coupon program ended, so did production. Most manufacturers were just out for the $40 coupon and was not as concerned by the quality and felt that even if the consumer did not like the box, the government still paid them $40 to make it and throw it in the garbage - which is where most of them belonged. The HR 20 is no exception.


----------



## n3ntj

I am located near 40.109182, -76.497269. Antenna is up about 35' and very similar to the CM4228. I've actually also tried the CM4228 (just to compare) and had very similar results. It is pointed towards Philly and locked in position for max signal from the Philly UHF stations. I can get KYW (3.1), WCAU (10.1), WPHL (17.1), WTFX (29.1), WPSG (57.1) all with 80%+ signals on the TV and HR20 tuners. The issue is with WYBE (35.1) on the HR20.

As I said earlier, the stations come in great on the TV's tuner but no signal at all for 35.x on the HR20 ATSC tuner. About the only thing left to try is a different length of RG-6 coax just to see if there is a resonance issue with the HR20's ATSC tuner at RF ch. 34 (WYBE's RF channel).


----------



## swise

Long time reader, first time poster. We live in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton DMA. Just recently the ABC affiliate (16) converted their local translator to digital so we can now use the HR20-700 to receive the off-air signal. The problem is we receive 16-1 with no problems (using an attic antennae) but we cannot receive 16-2, even though we have the same signal strength on both, on either HR20-700. However we can receive both 16-1 and 16-2 on our H20-100. Directv said they would escalate the problem to engineering but I don't hold out much hope. Does anyone have any idea what the problem could be?


----------



## CCarncross

try to do a complete reset of the antenna settings then redo the setup....the H20 will actually scan for channels, none of the others will, they just use a databse of what you should be able to recieve based on zip code. It's also possible that Tribune hasnt corrected the channel "database" for your area yet. There's a good chance this is not really a D* issue at all...


----------



## swise

Thanks for the reply. Since we have already contacted Directv does that mean tribune will be contacted by Directv? We have redone the setup so many times we could do it in our sleep. thanks for your help.


----------



## CCarncross

Just to be clear, you actually reset the antenna settings, and set them up again from scratch, or you just re-ran the antenna setup? Believe it or not they actually seem to work differently, and most had to do the complete antenna reset, then redo it, just redoing it didnt work unless it was accompanied by the reset b4hand. There's got to be someone else out there from your DMA that can chime in and say if they are experiencing the same issue. YOu are better off calling your local station and make sure the station engineer has reported the change..What does it show at www.zap2it.com for your local stations? If it's not listed Tribune doesnt have the correct info meaning your local station dropped the ball most likely.


----------



## swise

Yes we reset settings and then reran the antennae setup. What should it say at zap2it? Should it show 3 different ABC, one for 16 from directv, one for 16-1 over the air and one for 16-2 over the air? I have never used the web site.

Just checked Zap2it and both 16-1 and 16-2 are listed under broadcast.


----------



## KRK

I am having a strange issue where my receiver won't play any OTA signal. I just recently moved to San Angelo, TX, and I no longer receive my locals from DirecTV, so I must resort to OTA. 

I only get 3 HD Channels here. When using my HTPC, I can usually get good reception on 2 of the 3, and spotty to good on the 3rd, however, when hooking up to my HR20, I am only showing signal on 1 channel. While that is a problem, that isn't the problem I am reporting here. The problem is, on the 1 channel I do get, it shows as 100% signal strength, however, when I tune to that channel, I only get a black screen. When I tune to the other 2 channels with the HR20, I receive a "searching for signal" or whatever the on screen message is.


----------



## KRK

Ok.. so I put up a new antenna and now get 100% on all 3 channels on the PC, however, I still do not receive anything on the HR20. I actually got a little bit of a signal on another channel through the HR20, I think maybe up to 35%, the other channel still showing 100%, and the 3rd channel still at 0. I do not get anything on any channel, including the channel that show 100% strength. I mentioned before it was just a black screen, but after further review, it does give me the "searching for signal" error on that channel as well.


----------



## harsh

I'm going to assume that you told DIRECTV of your change of address.

Have you asked them to send you (or initiated online) a "rehit"?


----------



## KRK

DirecTV is aware of the new location, though I'm not sure that should matter being I am talking about OTA reception. I had an installer come out to put up the new dish for me last weekend, and I saw on Monday or Tuesday the old Locals disappear from my guide, so all is good with things on DirecTV's end.

I am guessing that there is just something wrong with my HR20 because the signal coming in from the antenna is a good signal as indicated by my HTPC being able to receive all 3 channels at nearly 100% signal strength. The only other thing could be is if the HR20 isn't looking for the OTA signal on the right frequency, and maybe that is what you are talking about, however, that is based off what the local networks report to DirecTV I believe. Is there any way to manually add channels with the HR20?


----------



## harsh

KRK said:


> Is there any way to manually add channels with the HR20?


No! The HR20, H20 and indeed any H(R)21-3 series receiver equipped with an AM-21 can only receive what DIRECTV tells it it can receive at the frequencies in their database. If your HR20 didn't get the whole message, it may be trying to tune the wrong frequencies.

In view of this widely recognized stupidity, I suggest you request a "re-hit".

The other possible issue is that you have too much signal. How far away are your broadcast towers (tvfool.com or antennaweb.org will tell you)?


----------



## KRK

I am between 12 and 27 miles. I tried a "re-hit" that didn't work, I also tried a complete "Initial Setup" of the antenna section with no luck. I have attached the summary information from TvFool.


----------



## harsh

You're kinda between a rock and a hard place for KLST being 90 degrees out from everything else.

Chances are that you don't need much of antenna if you're in a "topographically challenged" (flat) location as I envision most of Iowa. You might try a lesser antenna that you have laying around (ie rabbit ears, UHF loop/bowtie or a short piece of coax).


----------



## KRK

After further review of what DirecTV is showing I have, compared to both TVFool and also what my PC is picking up. DirecTV has channels listed incorrectly, so I am guessing they are being reported incorrectly to them. They are listing my channels as follows:

17-2 for NBC - Should be 3-1
13-2 for Fox - Should be 6-1

CBS is showing correct, but not picking up enough of a signal.


----------



## harsh

Depending on the gain parameters of your antenna, you may be able to point somewhere around 50 degrees and "split the difference".


----------



## KRK

Ok. so I finally got my issues resolved, and as an FYI for anyone else who may move to a different location and have to resort to OTA.

If the channels shown in your antenna setup do not match what you should be getting for your zip code, a simple "re-hit" from directv will not fix it. Re-running the Initial Setup will not fix it either. You have to do a complete reset in the Antenna Setup page, where it deletes and resets everything, asks you to put in a " - " to confirm, etc...

I am finally seeing the correct channels, however, my signal is very week and I can only get NBC. This still seems odd as I have 100% signal strength for my tuner in my PC, but oh well. Maybe a new antenna setup will fix it.

thanks to those that helped me out.


----------



## David HDDX

Hello:
I hope there are some who can help. You're answers will help decide if the DMA in the title should be attempted from the reception area in the title. The attachment will give you an idea of Rx location and AGL.

Has anyone in the area been able to get the NY DMA since the Switch?

TIA for your time and input.

David HDDX


----------



## lwilli201

Anyone know if KSHB/KMCI in Kansas City are at full power yet. I think I heard a while back that they had problems with the transmission lines to the tower. They were also moving the antennas on the tower. What is the scoop?


----------



## David HDDX

Jay Nix , Director of Engineering
By Phone (weekday business hours): 816-932-4176
By Fax: 816-932-0976
By E-mail: [email protected]

Or mail your concern to the following address: 
Jay Nix , Director of Engineering
KMCI-TV
4720 Oak Street
Kansas City, MO 64112-2236


----------



## Jim5506

David HDDX said:


> Hello:
> I hope there are some who can help. You're answers will help decide if the DMA in the title should be attempted from the reception area in the title. The attachment will give you an idea of Rx location and AGL.
> 
> Has anyone in the area been able to get the NY DMA since the Switch?
> 
> TIA for your time and input.
> 
> David HDDX


It is receivable (according to the TVFool report), but the main problem will be the strength of the local transmissions.

Several considerations, do you want all 4 channels or are you shooting for one or two? CBS and FOX are the easiest on VHF-high, ABC and PBS are UHF.

To get FOX and CBS, I'd use a VHF 7-13 antenna like the Winegard YA 1713 or the Antennas Direct Y10-7-13 with a Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp (good overload resistance).

To get the weaker UHF's on RF channels 34 and 42 probably a 91-XG which may need the preamp also (join them with a UVSJ then the HDP-269 pre-amp).

More powerful preamps will almost certainly overload.


----------



## David HDDX

Jim5506 said:


> It is receivable (according to the TVFool report), but the main problem will be the strength of the local transmissions.
> 
> Several considerations, do you want all 4 channels or are you shooting for one or two? CBS and FOX are the easiest on VHF-high, ABC and PBS are UHF.
> 
> To get FOX and CBS, I'd use a VHF 7-13 antenna like the Winegard YA 1713 or the Antennas Direct Y10-7-13 with a Winegard HDP-269 pre-amp (good overload resistance).
> 
> To get the weaker UHF's on RF channels 34 and 42 probably a 91-XG which may need the preamp also (join them with a UVSJ then the HDP-269 pre-amp).
> 
> More powerful preamps will almost certainly overload.


Jim,
Thanks for the equipment advice. 
Here is what's going up by _my_ calculations:
Winegard HD7697P for $100 with little more than 50 feet of quality RG6 to a Pioneer Kuro tuner.
In my walk around the 'hood, I have seen a decent amount of antennas (old) with various aimpoints. Not a one had an amp., regardless of the three possible aimpoints, and few had a rotor.
I think that I have done all I can without a rooftop assay. A much less expensive system will work for the locals, but the challenge (moreso today in the digital domain) is NY.
It would be so nice to hear from folks in the Electric City about their experiences. Let's hear it, Scrantoneers!


----------



## BREVARDTV

Can i use a directv am-21 on a h-23-600 and who has the best price on it thanks in advance


----------



## lman12

I need a recommendation and I hope this is the right place to post. I live in Central New Jersey in a Townhouse. I have had an OTA digital antenna installed for the past 7 years. Until recently I have been able to pick up all digitial TV stations from Philly and New York City. Recently my RG-6 coax wire from the rooftop antenna to my pre amp became loosened and I lost the ability to receive the channels. The antenna is on the roof approximatley 30 feet up. I cannot get to it (I don't have a ladder nor am I handy).

I have been trying to find a tv installer or repair company in central NJ (around the New Brunswick, North Brunswick, Somerset, Piscataway, Bridgewater areas) that will essentially come out to my place and JUST re-run the coax (I can buy another preamp). Once again the antenna is secured with great guide wires, the rotor works and all I really need is the wire from the antenna leads to the tv rerun. 

Can anybody recommend anybody to help???


----------



## mfc90125

Hi, I'm brand new to this type of channel receiving, but for some reason I have never been able to access KVIE in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento area). I've tried about 10 different indoor amplified antennas and have run the surveys on tvfool to make sure I can receive KVIE, all with no success. Many times, I've been unable to receive other local stations in the evening like KMAX-31 which shows as having the strongest signal on the Fool survey! 

Currently, I'm using an RCA Indoor Amplified Antenna M61004 with my Samsung PN58C550 and have run through that unit's air channel setup - it has a QAM/OTA/NTSC tuner. It's the version Sears used in its OTA demos and receives the most stations out of the 10 I've tried. 

I'm willing to insall an attic or outdoor antenna, but I want to make sure I understand how to actually tune to these types of stations. I have a feeling I'm missing something very simple.

Any insights would be appreciated.


----------



## David HDDX

mfc90125 said:


> Hi, I'm brand new to this type of channel receiving, but for some reason I have never been able to access KVIE in Rancho Cordova (Sacramento area). I've tried about 10 different indoor amplified antennas and have run the surveys on tvfool to make sure I can receive KVIE, all with no success. Many times, I've been unable to receive other local stations in the evening like KMAX-31 which shows as having the strongest signal on the Fool survey!
> 
> Currently, I'm using an RCA Indoor Amplified Antenna M61004 with my Samsung PN58C550 and have run through that unit's air channel setup - it has a QAM/OTA/NTSC tuner. It's the version Sears used in its OTA demos and receives the most stations out of the 10 I've tried.
> 
> I'm willing to insall an attic or outdoor antenna, but I want to make sure I understand how to actually tune to these types of stations. I have a feeling I'm missing something very simple.
> 
> Any insights would be appreciated.


A VHF lo/hi UHF combo antenna of modest size on the roof, with quality RG6 factory terminated cable, pointed in one direction should get you the signals you require for the major networks in the Sacramento market. It sounds like your indoor antenna is either malfunctioning or there is not enough signal exactly where you have it. Beware amplified antennas. They can amplify the wrong thing and blow what you really want right out of the water. Try shutting the amp off first as you seem to be in a strong territory.

Good luck!


----------



## mfc90125

David HDDX said:


> A VHF lo/hi UHF combo antenna of modest size on the roof, with quality RG6 factory terminated cable, pointed in one direction should get you the signals you require for the major networks in the Sacramento market. It sounds like your indoor antenna is either malfunctioning or there is not enough signal exactly where you have it. Beware amplified antennas. They can amplify the wrong thing and blow what you really want right out of the water. Try shutting the amp off first as you seem to be in a strong territory.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks - I'll give that a shot and report back.


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## harsh

If you lose the strongest stations at night, there's a good chance that you shouldn't be using an amplified antenna. With digital channels, too much can be just as bad as too little. Digital cannot survive multipath.

Are you sure about the model number on your antenna? The only thing I was able to find with that model number was a Philips signal splitter.


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## mfc90125

UPDATE: I think my antenna model is ANT1251. I did try turning off the antenna during various points of the day, and I could not receive PBS any better. In fact, I lost many stations after turning the unit off.


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## harsh

You don't want to turn the antenna off -- you want to turn the gain down. More often than not, when you turn an amplified antenna off, they provide no signal at all.


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## David HDDX

harsh said:


> You don't want to turn the antenna off -- you want to turn the gain down. More often than not, when you turn an amplified antenna off, they provide no signal at all.


The unit in question has no potentiometer. It is either amplifying or not.

http://audiovox2.info/docs/rca_acc/man/ANT1251_DOC_OM.PDF

Since the OP has tried this with little success, I suggest shortening and lengthening the VHF aerials and repositioning of said aerials, and moving the whole unit around would be the last best hope for DTV. There is no try, there is only do or not do.


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## hoophead

Is anyone else in the Madison, WI area having trouble with vary fluctuations with Madison's UHF channels? I have a UHF-only antenna since early summer and for about the last month from day to day the signal strengths will go from the low 70's and then to upper 80's and two of the channels will go up to 100 other days.

Very frustrating because when they get to the low 70's the signal drops off/on and that I do not understand what it could be.


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## Davenlr

hoophead said:


> Is anyone else in the Madison, WI area having trouble with vary fluctuations with Madison's UHF channels? I have a UHF-only antenna since early summer and for about the last month from day to day the signal strengths will go from the low 70's to upper 80's and two of the channels will go up to 100.
> 
> Very frustrating because when they get to the low 70's the signal drops off/on and that I do not understand what it could be.


Assuming the following things: Your antenna and coax connections are all secure, no loose or corroded parts, or water ingress into the coax, and the antenna is firmly mounted where it cannot move in the wind, then...

Two things can cause your issue... Multipath or Skip. Multipath will USUALLY be there all the time, however, if the signal level of the station is increased due to nightly tropospheric enhancement, if could show up as multipath. The other thing would be you are receiving a weak(er) signal on the same channel from another city, which is causing interference to your primary signal.

If you are over 60 miles from the transmitter, then you are more than likely using some tropospheric enhancement to pick up the station. In the winter, that enhancement is generally much less prevalent.

If you post the TIME of DAY where you have the best signal, and the time you have problems with the signal breaking up, that would be helpful. If I was to guess, your signal is at its worse between 11am and 3pm?

You can check this site to see if there is any enhancement. If you notice REDs and YELLOWS from a direction other than the path between you and the transmitter, check for cities in the path of the REDS and YELLOWS and see if they have transmitters on the same channels as the ones you are having problems with.

http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na

As I am typing this, you have quite a bit of enhancement going on the SE Wisconsin. If you are having the problem right now, then compare the map currently, to what it looks like when the signals are good, and you will start seeing a pattern.


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## hoophead

Davlnr
Thanx for the post...I really dont understand most of the stuff you just mentioned, but I am about 40 miles practically due east of Madison and all 4 channels, well at least 3 are within walking distance of each other and the last one a mile or two farther west. So, I looked at that map of enhancements over WI. Does that move out or ?? Hoping, if that is the problem that maybe it wont last forever. My Winegard antenna is 3yrs old and I had someone look at it when I repointed it from Milwaukee and swapped out a 5' mast with a 10' chain link fence top rail and ensured it was secure. Not aware of any cities w/ transmitters on the same channels. I will make a point to chart times of good and bad signal strengths and get back to you sometime down the road after the holidays.


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## Davenlr

So you are around Whitewater? Waukesha? Yea, just check that map when you are having problems, and see if there is always a red/yellow patch over you when it is, or vice versa. When I lived in Waukesha, I had problems with skip coming in over Lake Michegan from Michegan. Checking w9wi.com I see that there are stations in Western Michegan on channels 11, 19, 26, and 50 which coincide with the atsc channels of your Fox, NBC, ABC, and CBS channels from Madison. If that is the case, it might be possible to de-aim your antenna, by pointing it about 15-20 degrees north of the actual Madison transmitter direction, to put the Michegan stations in the sharp null most yagi antennas have at either side of the rear of them. If you are using a bowtie type antenna, then disregard that.

If it is skip from Michegan causing your problems, your only option then would be to increase your forward gain with a different antenna, which making sure the new one has at least as high a Front/Back ratio as your current antenna. Two antennas would fit that bill, the XG91 or an 8 bay screen. Problem with the XG91 is it wont have much if any gain on channel 11. The 8 bay screen should do ok.


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## hoophead

I am in Watertown, about 9miles north of interstate between Milwaukee and Madison.
What am I supposed to be looking at when I go to site *w9wi.com*? All I see is a bunch of options.

Again, I looked at that map of enhancements over WI. Does that ever move out or ?? Hoping, if that is the problem that maybe it wont last forever.


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## Davenlr

Oh, nothing on w9wi. Its just a list of all the licensed transmitters and their channels. I was using it to find channels in use in Madison, what are also in use across the lake in Michigan, since those skipping in off the back of your antenna could cause the symptoms you are describing. I just clicked on Show channels by state, and clicked on Michigan to see which ones matched up with Madison.


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## gomezma1

How did you find this information? I'm using rabbit ears and I know it has alot to do with my reception. But the picture is way better than analog was.


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## Davenlr

Which information, the websites, or my conclusions? If the former, most of it was gleaned from DXing websites, www.rabbitears.info, and other ham radio sites. If the latter, it is from general experience of DXing TV over the last 40 years...I started DXing when I was 10.


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## jsquared22

I am in Washington state. My mother lives in Amarillo, TX. She is on Directv with OTA locals. I had DTV install an antenna for the locals when I switched her to DirecTV. I purchased the antenna from a local store.
Her problem is with local ABC channel. During the week she gets ABC just fine, but on the weekends she can not get ABC. I have called the ABC engineer about this problem without any help. Mother doesn't live far from the trasmitter and has a line of sight. All other local channels come in just fine.
Any help?
jsquared22


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## machavez00

Phoenix DMA
I lost some of the OTA channels I had when I reran OTA setup. (twice) These are channels I have had since OTA tuners were activated. 3.1-2, 8.1-5, and 15.1-2. I was hoping the 7.2 problem had been corrected.


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## kenglish

jsquared22 said:


> I am in Washington state. My mother lives in Amarillo, TX. She is on Directv with OTA locals. I had DTV install an antenna for the locals when I switched her to DirecTV. I purchased the antenna from a local store.
> Her problem is with local ABC channel. During the week she gets ABC just fine, but on the weekends she can not get ABC. I have called the ABC engineer about this problem without any help. Mother doesn't live far from the trasmitter and has a line of sight. All other local channels come in just fine.
> Any help?
> jsquared22


Somebody home (nearby) on weekends, using something that causes interference? Is it a VHF channel?
(Looks like KVII on RF channel 7)


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## dettxw

jsquared22 said:


> I am in Washington state. My mother lives in Amarillo, TX. She is on Directv with OTA locals. I had DTV install an antenna for the locals when I switched her to DirecTV. I purchased the antenna from a local store.
> Her problem is with local ABC channel. During the week she gets ABC just fine, but on the weekends she can not get ABC. I have called the ABC engineer about this problem without any help. Mother doesn't live far from the trasmitter and has a line of sight. All other local channels come in just fine.
> Any help?
> jsquared22





kenglish said:


> Somebody home (nearby) on weekends, using something that causes interference? Is it a VHF channel?
> (Looks like KVII on RF channel 7)


According to Wikipedia they actually broadcast on UHF channel 23, so none of the usual VHF problems should apply.
What kind of signal strength (error rate indication) does she get on the channel during the week vs. weekends?
How is reception of The CW on a subchannel (7.2)?


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## SeaBeagle

On my over the air reception at exact intervals the channel is jumpy and the sound jumps. What would cause this?

When I first hooked to the aerial to the HOPPER this did not happen. 


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## RBA

> On my over the air reception at exact intervals the channel is jumpy and the sound jumps. What would cause this?
> 
> When I first hooked to the aerial to the HOPPER this did not happen.
> 
> Sent from my iPad 4 128GB using DBSTalk mobile app


First thought is in analog days an electric fence would cause pulsing. Tell us more about your problem.


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## SeaBeagle

RBA said:


> First thought is in analog days an electric fence would cause pulsing. Tell us more about your problem.


There is not any electric fence. Nothing that's can think of that would cause this. I moved the aerial today hopefully that will help.

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## Jim5506

Are you anywhere near an airport or a weather radar station?


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## SeaBeagle

Jim5506 said:


> Are you anywhere near an airport or a weather radar station?


No the closest airport is like four miles away. A small commuter plane airport.

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## sregener

4 miles is close. 

You say regular intervals, but what are they? Minutes? Hours? What? On all channels, or just on one?

The Hopper seems to introduce glitches at the top and bottom of the hour.

The first-generation Hopper (and maybe the 2nd) also introduces glitches if it's busy doing something else - like if you're watching another program while it's recording and you use the skip or ff/rew buttons.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> 4 miles is close.
> 
> You say regular intervals, but what are they? Minutes? Hours? What? On all channels, or just on one?
> 
> The Hopper seems to introduce glitches at the top and bottom of the hour.
> 
> The first-generation Hopper (and maybe the 2nd) also introduces glitches if it's busy doing something else - like if you're watching another program while it's recording and you use the skip or ff/rew buttons.


Like every 2 seconds. Regular network stations. These are completely recorded shows that are recorded when I am not at home.

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## SeaBeagle

Now today I taped the same show at the same time on the same channel and the reception was perfect. Makes no sence.


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## kenglish

Could be some kind of battery charger or power supply.
Is there a charger on a phone close by? That could cycle on and off when the battery is fully charged.
Also, chargers on those solar cell systems (on people's roofs) can cycle on and off when they are near fully charged.


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## gov

Long shot, but I recently had a client with a TIVO connected to OTA and it would only get a few channels from the in attic antenna. I went so far as to run a cable from the TIVO to a temporary antenna I set up outdoors 100 feet from the house in a location where I could see the towers (about 35 miles).

That got them FEWER channels! And several of the channels would have 'break ups' every few seconds to minutes.

I pondered that for a bit, and grabbing at straws, went and grabbed my little box of attenuators. Tried 3dB and one channel improved slightly. Kept adding more attenuation and saw more stable reception and more channels at every increase.

I eventually got up to 22dB (!!!!!!!!!) and got them up to all the channels they wanted but one (and I had seen it from the start but lost it around 10dB of attenuation) and declared victory. Later I poked around on the internet and TIVO tuners are notorious on OTA it turns out.

They really want their missing channel, and I am thinking I am going to set up an MX4U for them, but I only have a VERY few left and apparently they don't make them anymore.

If the OP has an attenuator (LOL or a 4 or 8 way splitter and some 75 ohm term caps) might be worth a try, but it's a long shot for sure, and attenuation might delete some desired stations that are currently coming in fine.

And no, you can't have one of my MX4Us !

:coffee


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## SeaBeagle

kenglish said:


> Could be some kind of battery charger or power supply.
> Is there a charger on a phone close by? That could cycle on and off when the battery is fully charged.
> Also, chargers on those solar cell systems (on people's roofs) can cycle on and off when they are near fully charged.


None here that are left on.

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## SeaBeagle

gov said:


> Long shot, but I recently had a client with a TIVO connected to OTA and it would only get a few channels from the in attic antenna. I went so far as to run a cable from the TIVO to a temporary antenna I set up outdoors 100 feet from the house in a location where I could see the towers (about 35 miles).
> 
> That got them FEWER channels! And several of the channels would have 'break ups' every few seconds to minutes.
> 
> I pondered that for a bit, and grabbing at straws, went and grabbed my little box of attenuators. Tried 3dB and one channel improved slightly. Kept adding more attenuation and saw more stable reception and more channels at every increase.
> 
> I eventually got up to 22dB (!!!!!!!!!) and got them up to all the channels they wanted but one (and I had seen it from the start but lost it around 10dB of attenuation) and declared victory. Later I poked around on the internet and TIVO tuners are notorious on OTA it turns out.
> 
> They really want their missing channel, and I am thinking I am going to set up an MX4U for them, but I only have a VERY few left and apparently they don't make them anymore.
> 
> If the OP has an attenuator (LOL or a 4 or 8 way splitter and some 75 ohm term caps) might be worth a try, but it's a long shot for sure, and attenuation might delete some desired stations that are currently coming in fine.
> 
> And no, you can't have one of my MX4Us !
> 
> :coffee


The only thing that I know how to do is set up an outdoor aerial. I do not know anything about attenuators.

I have no one around here that knows anything about this either besides hiring someone which would be expensive.

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## sregener

The Hopper's tuners are not prone to overload.

If you watch the signal strength meter, does it jump around or does it stay stable? If it's jumping, that points to some kind of multi path. What kind of antenna are you using? Are you using a preamplifier or any other amplification? Can you post your TVFool results?


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> The Hopper's tuners are not prone to overload.
> 
> If you watch the signal strength meter, does it jump around or does it stay stable? If it's jumping, that points to some kind of multi path. What kind of antenna are you using? Are you using a preamplifier or any other amplification? Can you post your TVFool results?


The signal is like different on each channel. Now all the channels are perfect when I record them now the same.

The aerial that I am using is a RCA fiat digital multidirectional. This ratting on container is EXCELLENT. The one rated SUPERIOR was not available.

Model number ANT1600F

Sometimes the signal number does change.

No amplifier or preamp.

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## sregener

That's not a good antenna, and probably the source of your problems. Indoor reception is prone to lots of potential interference issues - lamps in your house, people moving around a room, trucks passing by outside, etc. Plus all the stuff that impacts outdoor antennas like weather conditions. Depending on your distance and topography, you may need to give serious consideration to an attic antenna or an outdoor antenna. And RCA's marketing "rating" isn't worth a hill of beans. You need Front-to-Back ratio and net gain numbers over a large number of channels to really compare antennas.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> That's not a good antenna, and probably the source of your problems. Indoor reception is prone to lots of potential interference issues - lamps in your house, people moving around a room, trucks passing by outside, etc. Plus all the stuff that impacts outdoor antennas like weather conditions. Depending on your distance and topography, you may need to give serious consideration to an attic antenna or an outdoor antenna. And RCA's marketing "rating" isn't worth a hill of beans. You need Front-to-Back ratio and net gain numbers over a large number of channels to really compare antennas.


I do not gave an attic. At first the aerial worked perfectly. Then after an put two weeks the picture on the OTA stations looked weird at times.

Which is the best aerial that you would recommend.

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## sregener

I can't tell you which one for sure because I don't know how far you are from your stations. But I'd give serious consideration to the Mohu Leaf lineup - I was very impressed with the one I tried, and reviewers have generally been very positive. I can't think of a better indoor antenna to try. But it from Amazon and if it doesn't work for you, you can return it within a month for the cost of return shipping. If you're close and have strong signals, stay away from the amplified ones. If you're further away or blocked by a lot of hills, get an amplified one. Experiment heavily with location! 2" is a long distance at the wavelengths of most television stations these days.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> I can't tell you which one for sure because I don't know how far you are from your stations. But I'd give serious consideration to the Mohu Leaf lineup - I was very impressed with the one I tried, and reviewers have generally been very positive. I can't think of a better indoor antenna to try. But it from Amazon and if it doesn't work for you, you can return it within a month for the cost of return shipping. If you're close and have strong signals, stay away from the amplified ones. If you're further away or blocked by a lot of hills, get an amplified one. Experiment heavily with location! 2" is a long distance at the wavelengths of most television stations these days.


I just remembered that I switched USB ports in which I have the OTA module plugged in. I switched that back to the front like it was before when I first installed the module.

Maybe the back USB port has some sort of conflict.

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## SeaBeagle

What makes the Leaf Aerial have such great reception compared to other aerials of the same design?


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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> What makes the Leaf Aerial have such great reception compared to other aerials of the same design?


Without cracking one open and looking inside, I don't really know the differences. But just because they all have a box shape doesn't mean they're the same inside. Quality connectors, good baluns, different materials, these things all matter and are hard to assess by looking at a box. I was very impressed with the Leaf antenna I tested, as it vastly outperformed my expectations. That's not to say it will be better for you, because indoor antennas are very unpredictable. I've seen junky ones work just fine, and I've seen situations where the best don't cut it.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Without cracking one open and looking inside, I don't really know the differences. But just because they all have a box shape doesn't mean they're the same inside. Quality connectors, good baluns, different materials, these things all matter and are hard to assess by looking at a box. I was very impressed with the Leaf antenna I tested, as it vastly outperformed my expectations. That's not to say it will be better for you, because indoor antennas are very unpredictable. I've seen junky ones work just fine, and I've seen situations where the best don't cut it.


I will purchase a Leaf Ultimate to see if there is any difference. I scan in like 13 channels.

By placing the leaf by a window will that improve on reception?

All the reviews I read owners hang theirs on a wall some place and a few behind their TVs.

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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> By placing the leaf by a window will that improve on reception?


Depends on what your window is made of and what's inside it. How hard is it to give it a try? You will almost certainly do better to place the antenna nearest the wall/window facing the directions your channels are coming from. The further away from the wall you go, typically the worse it will get. But indoor reception is not about logic or knowing the rules so much as it is experimenting until you get the desired result.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Depends on what your window is made of and what's inside it. How hard is it to give it a try? You will almost certainly do better to place the antenna nearest the wall/window facing the directions your channels are coming from. The further away from the wall you go, typically the worse it will get. But indoor reception is not about logic or knowing the rules so much as it is experimenting until you get the desired result.


The Window is made out of glass. Why would a wall be better reception than a window?

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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> The Window is made out of glass. Why would a wall be better reception than a window?


Simple, single-pane glass? No gases trapped between layers? Than a window will be great. But some windows are coated with anti-reflective layers that actually have metals in them, which reflect radio waves, and some gasses do the same thing. The tricks they use to make windows more energy efficient can make them very poor for television reception.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Simple, single-pane glass? No gases trapped between layers? Than a window will be great. But some windows are coated with anti-reflective layers that actually have metals in them, which reflect radio waves, and some gasses do the same thing. The tricks they use to make windows more energy efficient can make them very poor for television reception.


Single non pane glass. My place was designed way before all this energy saving stuff started. I also read where cloud cover will make reception not as good.

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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> I also read where cloud cover will make reception not as good.


Daytime reception is the hardest, when the sun is highest. Nighttime reception on crisp, clear nights is the best for long-distance reception. VHF channels (2-13) will be problematic during thunderstorms between you and the transmitters.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Daytime reception is the hardest, when the sun is highest. Nighttime reception on crisp, clear nights is the best for long-distance reception. VHF channels (2-13) will be problematic during thunderstorms between you and the transmitters.


Even using either the leaf or an outdoor aerial?

Another question. Since the reception is not as good sometimes. My question is on DISH anywhere does that application get the signals off or from the attached receiver or fed off the satellites to the device that DISH Anywhere is being watched on?

Maybe I can watch those bad reception channels using iPad using DISH Anywhere.

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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> Even using either the leaf or an outdoor aerial?
> 
> Another question. Since the reception is not as good sometimes. My question is on DISH anywhere does that application get the signals off or from the attached receiver or fed off the satellites to the device that DISH Anywhere is being watched on?


Lightning strikes are going to mess up channels 2-13 (real channels, not virtual) for any antenna. If you watched television in the old days, you'll remember the multi-colored lines of static that you'd see every time lighting flashed. That's interference and it's usually more than enough to disrupt a digital stream.

Daytime reception is most difficult for anyone. However, the better the antenna, or the better placed the antenna, the more signal you can stand to lose without having the signal go out. Thus, I never lose my channels with my antenna on my roof. When it was strapped to my deck, I would see occasional dropouts.

Dish Anywhere is streamed from your receiver to your iPad or other viewing device. It does not bypass your local reception issues.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Lightning strikes are going to mess up channels 2-13 (real channels, not virtual) for any antenna. If you watched television in the old days, you'll remember the multi-colored lines of static that you'd see every time lighting flashed. That's interference and it's usually more than enough to disrupt a digital stream.
> 
> Daytime reception is most difficult for anyone. However, the better the antenna, or the better placed the antenna, the more signal you can stand to lose without having the signal go out. Thus, I never lose my channels with my antenna on my roof. When it was strapped to my deck, I would see occasional dropouts.
> 
> Dish Anywhere is streamed from your receiver to your iPad or other viewing device. It does not bypass your local reception issues.


At least before this digital TV Signal change channels came in better than now. The bandwidth is too narrow on a Digital TV channel.

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## Jim5506

Every channel still has 6MHz bandwidth, same as analog.

The difference with digital is that if your signal falls below the digital cliff - no picture, on analog the picture slowly disappears into a background of snow.

I sort of wish I still lived back where I was raised, two vhf high band channels for NBC and CBS, CBS 51 miles away but LOS on a 2000 ft tower, NBC 73 miles 2 edge, but both were receivable 24/7 with a good crisp color picture back in the analog days (20-25 years ago) with the largest antenna that Radio Shack sold.

I wonder what the OTA reception is like with digital.


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## sregener

Jim5506 said:


> I wonder what the OTA reception is like with digital.


In general, if you had a fairly decent picture with analog, you'd get a perfect picture with digital. If your picture was more snow than picture (you had to defocus a bit to make out the image) then you wouldn't have digital reception. UHF is a bit worse than VHF for long-distance, but not dramatically so until you get past the radio horizon (about 60 miles over flat terrain.) Reception over 75 miles is possible with a quality antenna and above-average terrain.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> In general, if you had a fairly decent picture with analog, you'd get a perfect picture with digital. If your picture was more snow than picture (you had to defocus a bit to make out the image) then you wouldn't have digital reception. UHF is a bit worse than VHF for long-distance, but not dramatically so until you get past the radio horizon (about 60 miles over flat terrain.) Reception over 75 miles is possible with a quality antenna and above-average terrain.


Would the Leaf brand be OK or an outdoor type. I could move my RCA type indoor aerial to outside to see if that would help.

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## sregener

SeaBeagle said:


> Woul the Leaf brand be OK or an outdoor type. I could move my RCA type indoor aerial to outside to see if that would help.


Indoor antennas are not weather sealed and will corrode/degrade rapidly if left outdoors. But for a short-term test, it's worth trying.


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## SeaBeagle

sregener said:


> Indoor antennas are not weather sealed and will corrode/degrade rapidly if left outdoors. But for a short-term test, it's worth trying.


Could protect the aerial with a plastic bag so that will not happen.

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## harsh

SeaBeagle said:


> Could protect the aerial with a plastic bag so that will not happen.


Rain is not the only thing that attacks plastics and metals. UV also rots rubber and plastic (including many plastic bags).


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## kenglish

There's nothing "magic" about the Leaf antenna. Just use an outdoor version of a one-bay or two-bay "bowtie" antenna, which is designed to go outside.
They are equal.


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## SayWhat?

sregener said:


> Daytime reception is the hardest, when the sun is highest.





SeaBeagle said:


> Even using either the leaf or an outdoor aerial?


There's a lot more junk in the airwaves too. Business radio like service trucks and cabs, more cell phone traffic, more aircraft flying so more radio traffic to/from them, train communications, traffic light control signals, data to/from emergency vehicles increases, businesses uploading data to satellites (ever see the dishes on top of stores like Dollar General?), etc.


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## SeaBeagle

SayWhat? said:


> There's a lot more junk in the airwaves too. Business radio like service trucks and cabs, more cell phone traffic, more aircraft flying so more radio traffic to/from them, train communications, traffic light control signals, data to/from emergency vehicles increases, businesses uploading data to satellites (ever see the dishes on top of stores like Dollar General?), etc.


I thought those dishes were for some sort of TV reception. The cost between the Leaf and a regular outdoor aerial is about the same.

Do not know which would be better.

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## SeaBeagle

I shortened the coaxial cable on my aerial today by several feet. I will see of that makes a difference.


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## bflora

With the upcoming bandwidth auction, I hear about wealthier stations broadcasting other stations on their sub-channels so the other stations can auction off their bandwidth. My question is can a digital signal carry more than one HD channel?


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## inkahauts

bflora said:


> With the upcoming bandwidth auction, I hear about wealthier stations broadcasting other stations on their sub-channels so the other stations can auction off their bandwidth. My question is can a digital signal carry more than one HD channel?


If they give you a bad quality they can shove two 720p channels in, but realistically, no...


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