# New HDGUI and the DVR's SD outputs



## bishoph (Sep 28, 2007)

Is anyone experiencing problems with the SD outputs on their DVRs with the new HDGUI?

I have an HR20-700 and have the composite outputs hooked up to an SD Slingbox...should there be any changes to the DVR outputting to these with this new GUI?


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## Go Beavs (Nov 18, 2008)

The HDGUI will not output over the composite (or S-video) unless the DVR's resolution is set to 480i. Press and hold the EXIT button to toggle between SD and HD resolutions.


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

See this thread for workaround/solution...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2885009#post2885009


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## rawilde (Jan 23, 2007)

I just saw this post and am confused. Today, I have 2 HD DVR's and only have one connected via HDMI to a HD screen. I then use the normal 3 RCA connections to output to a video transmitter to other TV's with only a SD display. This will be a huge issue for me. Does anyone have any alternative solutions for displaying HD output and SD output at the same time?


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

A component to composite (or HDMI to composite RCA) video down-converter will do the trick.

They are available for under $50 online.

See thread link on post number three for a solution brought up by another poster.


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## rawilde (Jan 23, 2007)

Thanks! I will check that out.


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## rawilde (Jan 23, 2007)

DBSNewbie said:


> See this thread for workaround/solution...
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2885009#post2885009


I can't seem to access this thread.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

For those who are not in that group, here's the first post in that thread, with all the information you need:



NoOTA said:


> I was pretty critical of the fact that the HD GUI doesn't show right on the SD outputs w/o some RES switching back to SD on the HR21. This is a problem for those of us that have been with Direct along time (since 1998) and back then the installers use to split the SD (it was only SD) output and send the signal to another TV.
> 
> Fast forward to today: Some of us don't want to spend the money replacing SD TVs we seldom use and have the SD feed off out HR boxes sent to them. More sat receivers, a MRV fee, it all adds up. Sure sending the signal to a main TV over HDMI and the SD signal over coax to some smaller TVs may not be official supported, but for some of us, it works.
> 
> ...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rawilde said:


> I can't seem to access this thread.


It is basically linking to http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10114&cs_id=1011410&p_id=8125&seq=1&format=2


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

rawilde said:


> I can't seem to access this thread.


That thread is in the Cutting Edge forum. Be sure to read the FAQs and rules before deciding to participate.


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

That's not a solution. A solution should not require any $$$ to be spent by the end user.

I had the (*&$^ nag screen when I tried slingboxing from work today. If I sent it to SD, will I still get 16x9 format of HD shows out the composite/SVideo in a letterbox format?


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## rawilde (Jan 23, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> For those who are not in that group, here's the first post in that thread, with all the information you need:


Thanks for the info. Very informative. Don't like the fact I need to spend money and even split my HDMI signal (times 2 the DVR's I have), but there is a work-around.


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

rawilde said:


> Thanks for the info. Very informative. Don't like the fact I need to spend money and *even split my HDMI signal* (times 2 the DVR's I have), but there is a work-around.


Unless I'm not understanding your setup correctly, you wouldn't have to split your HDMI signal if you use the Component to Composite converter. The HRxx can output HD via Component and HDMI at the same time.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

dervari said:


> That's not a solution. A solution should not require any $$$ to be spent by the end user.
> 
> I had the (*&$^ nag screen when I tried slingboxing from work today. If I sent it to SD, will I still get 16x9 format of HD shows out the composite/SVideo in a letterbox format?


Well, there's also a free "solution" .... Just cycle the video output resolution to 480i or 480p.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

litzdog911 said:


> Well, there's also a free "solution" .... Just cycle the video output resolution to 480i or 480p.


Yes, that does work. Also, you can use DirectV2Pc if the PC graphics card has HDMI or S-Video output. I have both setup successfully.


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## rawilde (Jan 23, 2007)

DBSNewbie said:


> Unless I'm not understanding your setup correctly, you wouldn't have to split your HDMI signal if you use the Component to Composite converter. The HRxx can output HD via Component and HDMI at the same time.


That is true.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

dervari said:


> That's not a solution. A solution should not require any $$$ to be spent by the end user.


Expenses (or inconvenience) incurred by the customer as a side effect of D* system changes apparently is not a priority for D*... :nono2: Just look at the roll to MPEG4. I had to retire 2 [owned] high-end D* HD receivers and spend $150 to continue to use my HDTV for HD. I did talk them into 1 HR20 for free, but the bottom line is I lost a chunk of change...



litzdog911 said:


> Well, there's also a free "solution" .... Just cycle the video output resolution to 480i or 480p.


... and if you also have an HDTV connected, you drop the resolution on that too... IMHO a better solution would be suppress the big ugly grey warning for program control, Play, Pause, FF, etc. and only put the message up for request like the Guide, Playlist, Info, etc...


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

jes said:


> Expenses (or inconvenience) incurred by the customer as a side effect of D* system changes apparently is not a priority for D*... :nono2: Just look at the roll to MPEG4. I had to retire 2 [owned] high-end D* HD receivers and spend $150 to continue to use my HDTV for HD. I did talk them into 1 HR20 for free, but the bottom line is I lost a chunk of change...... /QUOTE]
> 
> I couldn't agree more! It cost me $1800 in 1994 for D*. My second biggest cash out was an HR10-250 DVR for $999.99 plus a $60 dish. I got a year of use before D* went to MP4 and forced me to the HR20 and a new dish. When the HR20 went North, I purchased a HR21-700 and an AM21 because D* removed off-air capability. Later, I added a Linksys WGA600A for the internet. Today, a D* Tech installed a new HR24-100 to replace a faulty one. He said ethernet was going away, and suggested I switch to the whole house network system for $200 plus monthly charge. I thought it a great idea, but I am tired of eating equipment costs. I think D* should start crediting equipment purchases toward upgrades.


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## tonyoci (Oct 15, 2006)

I was going to post my own thread but I'll just ask here 

The new guide simply does not work over SD. What actually happens if you press the guide ?

All this converting is pretty disappointing. I route my systems through the house over RF for other rooms (kids etc.)


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

tonyoci said:


> I was going to post my own thread but I'll just ask here
> 
> The new guide simply does not work over SD. What actually happens if you press the guide ?
> 
> All this converting is pretty disappointing. I route my systems through the house over RF for other rooms (kids etc.)


If you are not on SD resolution, a message on the screen will appear...

"This TV or its cables are not HD. To see screen graphics, press the RES key on the front of the receiver until this message no longer appears."


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

tonyoci said:


> The new guide simply does not work over SD. What actually happens if you press the guide ?
> 
> All this converting is pretty disappointing. I route my systems through the house over RF for other rooms (kids etc.)


a new HD RF modular will be pricey... :nono:


DBSNewbie said:


> If you are not on SD resolution, a message on the screen will appear...
> 
> "This TV or its cables are not HD. To see screen graphics, press the RES key on the front of the receiver until this message no longer appears."


"message" is a subtle understatement... [snip] and is not exitable. My biggest objection is why the warning box needs to be displayed every time we press the program controls, Play, Pause, FF, etc..


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

jes said:


> a new HD RF modular will be pricey... :nono:
> 
> Yes. HD RF Modulators are pricey. But, by using a component to composite down-converter (under $50) the signal can be routed to other rooms and TVs using existing SD RF modulation equipment.


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

jes said:


> "message" is a subtle understatement... the gray warning box obscures 2/3 of the screen for 15 seconds and is not exitable. My biggest objection is why the warning box needs to be displayed every time we press the program controls, Play, Pause, FF, etc..


This is the message I get on my H25. What receiver is shown in your pic? It must be different for different receivers. Since our H25 had been the only receiver which was used for both SD and HD at the same time (it's on a converter now) that was the only message I had seen. And, it only stays on screen for a couple of seconds, if not shorter.


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## tigerwillow1 (Jan 26, 2009)

When you switch to 480i to use the gui on a SD television, does the gui run at the new faster speed, or do we go back to the slo...oow GUI?


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

tigerwillow1 said:


> When you switch to 480i to use the gui on a SD television, does the gui run at the new faster speed, or do we go back to the slo...oow GUI?


Everything is the same, it just changes the resolution.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

DBSNewbie said:


> This is the message I get on my H25. What receiver is shown in your pic? It must be different for different receivers. Since our H25 had been the only receiver which was used for both SD and HD at the same time (it's on a converter now) that was the only message I had seen. And, it only stays on screen for a couple of seconds, if not shorter.


oops... my screen capture was not from NR... the one before looked like yours and IIRC _only_ stayed up for 5 seconds. ... guess I'll be getting some unpleasant reminders from the moderators... 

SD warning screen


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## rwmair (Nov 16, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Originally Posted by NoOTA:
> I was pretty critical of the fact that the HD GUI doesn't show right on the SD outputs w/o some RES switching back to SD on the HR21. This is a problem for those of us that have been with Direct along time (since 1998) and back then the installers use to split the SD (it was only SD) output and send the signal to another TV.
> 
> Fast forward to today: Some of us don't want to spend the money replacing SD TVs we seldom use and have the SD feed off out HR boxes sent to them. More sat receivers, a MRV fee, it all adds up. Sure sending the signal to a main TV over HDMI and the SD signal over coax to some smaller TVs may not be official supported, but for some of us, it works.
> ...


I've been following this thread, and the 40-or-more-page other thread on the HD gui rollout for the last week since discovering the "not-HD" message on my SD TVs once my HR23 got the GUI upgrade. Despite the fact I have a ChannelPlus modulator and other equipment sitting behind my receivers, I was resigned to getting the component-composite converter also - until I just spent 15 mins toggling thru the options - and now I'm confused.

I have a HR23 that is connected to a Sony 1080p LED-LCD TV via HDMI cable. The composite and L/R audio outs go to the modulator and that feeds other TV's in the house via coax cable. The HR23 is also set to Native-On; Original Format, as this had seemed to guarantee I'd get back to 1080i HD anytime I switched to a HD channel after we had watched something on a SD-only channel (eg BBC America).

At some stage in the past week, my wife had pressed the EXIT button when prompted on one of the SD TV's, and the unit had set itself to 480p only. However I didn't see a big effect on the main HDTV.

So, sitting in front of the Sony HDTV just now, I paused a HD program (some college football on ESPN) and cycled thru the resolution settings by pushing the front panel buttons of the HR23. The DirecTV and ESPN logos on the channel banner or progress bar were noticeably degraded when the receiver was switched to 480p, however the broadcast picture wasn't. I could just barely make out some slightly increased fuzziness in the text on the ESPN ticker at the bottom of the screen, or a player's jersey number, when on 480p compared to 1080i. But this was while sitting on the floor, 12 inches from the TV screen. When I moved to a normal viewing distance, I couldn't tell the pictures apart. However, I then changed the channel to a SD-only channel (BBC America) and the broadcast picture was highly degraded compared to the ESPN picture - as one would expect for a 480 signal on a HDTV. With the receiver set to 480p, I had expected the football on ESPN to look as fuzzy and degraded as Top Gear on BBC America - but it wasn't.

So what is going on here? Is my eyesight poor, or is something else happening when I view a HD channel with the receiver set to 480p rather than a SD channel with the same resolution setting on the receiver?? Is native-on having some effect on the HD channels? Given what I've seen, I'm tempted to just leave the receiver set to 480p only all the time (and not bother with the component-composite converter for SD feed) even tho I realize this is tantamount to heresy!

A couple of other notes where my experience differs to those above:

- when the receiver was set up properly (to output 1080i signal) and we hit the exit button, the receiver would revert to 480p (only), not 480i.

- once this was done, the "format" button on the remote could not help with toggling resolution settings. As the receiver is set to 480p ONLY after pressing the exit button (and 1080i is deselected in the resolution settings), the format button was no help as it only cycles thru the screen-size settings for 480p (presumably because I have "original format" selected in video settings), but won't switch to any other resolution - because 480p is now the only resolution checked in resolution settings!

- after setting the receiver to 480p via the exit button, I could not get it to return to 1080i again with the exit button. Even tho when using the exit button to drop down to 480p the receiver would flash up the message saying "hit exit again to return to previous settings", this would not work for me. The receiver would just issue its bleep noise you hear whenever pressing any button that is not active at that time. This is an ultra-pain, as the alternative to reconfigure the receiver to 1080i takes about 15 button presses to navigate from the menu thru to settings to HDTV Settings to receiver resolutions, with the final press of "info" to confirm that we're back to 1080i. So all of this, along with the picture experiment above, has me thinking of just leaving the receiver set to 480p only at all times.

You've got to love technology "upgrades"!!

Comments?


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## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

I just got the new GUI and have my HR20 receiver driving two displays, one an HD projector, and the other, an SD. With the_ old interface_, the receiver could output an HD (1080i) signal using the HDMI output (which goes to my projector) while _*simultaneously*_ outputting an SD (480i) signal on the NTSC composite output (which goes to my SD display). Everything worked in its respective resolution.

The _new_ interface is capable of the same with a major exception. It will _*not*_ do the channel list and some other functions on the composite (SD) output while in HD mode (it does, however, show a picture on the SD with the banner indicating that the resolution needs to be changed - the banner disappears after about 20 seconds but comes back any time a remote control function is activated such as a channel change). Of course, changing the resolution (by holding the EXIT button down a few seconds) makes the SD output work, but the HDMI output resolution is also downrezzed. It isn't too apparent since my projector uprezzes the image to 1080 again but there are notable artifacts and fine details are gone in the HD display, so goodbye true HD when in the SD mode.

I'm fortunate that I only use one display _or _the other and not both at the same time, so I can switch between resolutions with the EXIT button, but using the EXIT button to change back-and-forth is a significant complication the new GUI introduces. Those desiring both SD and HD outputs _at the same time_ (with a functioning channel list, etc.) will need to leave the resolution in HD and come off the HDMI or component output with a converter which would feed their SD display. For those folks, _*this is a serious flaw*_ which should be addressed in a future D* update!

I don't know the technical in-and-outs of the programming to achieve the new GUI, but if simultaneous HD and SD outputs were formerly obtainable under the old GUI, they should be possible with the new one unless there's a hardware problem that prevents this.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

DBSNewbie said:


> A component to composite (or HDMI to composite RCA) video down-converter will do the trick.
> 
> They are available for under $50 online.
> 
> See thread link on post number three for a solution brought up by another poster.


This is all fine well and good if you're not using the component port for another TV. I happen to be using all available ports.

I did find a shorter workaround that might work for others. Press "1" on the remote to tune to channel 1 (SD channel) then you can bring up the guide without further hassle and without messing up the previous channel resolution.

At a minimum they need to give us an override for this annoying _20 second_ "feature"


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

RBTO, I understand your umbrage, and the umbrage of others here, but I would simply suggest you temper your expectations. This is not likely to be resolved at this point. 

The old UI was always 480p and was upscaled to HD resolution. The new UI is native at all resolutions and upscaling does not take place. This is done to increase speed and legibility. 

DIRECTV folks have told me that among the entire subscriber base, the need to use HD and SD at the same time is fairly rare, and the desire for a faster, more legible UI is almost universal. 

Presuming for a moment that it isn't reasonable to expect that you can get both... which would you choose? More speed for everyone or retaining features for a few? If you said more speed for everyone, our friends at DIRECTV with their huge marketing and data gathering budgets agree with you. 

There is a solution, as detailed over and over... simply buy a component to composite converter. We buy things all the time to keep our equipment up to date. Just buy that.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

sfpegasus said:


> At a minimum they need to give us an override for this annoying _20 second_ "feature"


There is an override... press and hold {EXIT} and you will be changed to 480p resolution.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> There is an override... press and hold {EXIT} and you will be changed to 480p resolution.


You misunderstand my post. If DirecTv is going to insist on this, give us the option of suppressing the 20 second message. I'd rather nothing happen on the SD display than tolerate a 20 second message nearly every time a remote button is pressed. We can figure out a way to get to the guide if we need to.



Stuart Sweet said:


> There is a solution, as detailed over and over... simply buy a component to composite converter. We buy things all the time to keep our equipment up to date. Just buy that.


But, but, but ..... the component port is already in use.


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## JohnDG (Aug 16, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> ...If you said more speed for everyone...


What's the resolution output got to do with the speed of the menus?

Also: the 480p exit button doesn't work when trying to get back to 1080i. I have to turn the receiver off/on before I am able to toggle back to HD.

jdg


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## RBTO (Apr 11, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:
RBTO, I understand your umbrage, and the umbrage of others here, but I would simply suggest you temper your expectations. This is not likely to be resolved at this point.

*I really don't have any umbrage, only a sense of inconvenience that I can deal with. For others that use both SD & HD outputs simultaneously, it is more than an inconvenience.

I don't expect this to be resolved at this point, knowing DIRECTVs history, but I should be able to hold onto the hope that they will address this in the future and they shouldn't stonewall such a request with some of their standard excuses (not practical, no demand for such, etc., etc.).*

DIRECTV folks have told me that among the entire subscriber base, the need to use HD and SD at the same time is fairly rare, and the desire for a faster, more legible UI is almost universal.

*I can totally believe the latter, but it appears the former is may not be true, judging from the response in this thread and others (and how did they come to that conclusion being they can't detect the receiver configuration of end users?).*

Presuming for a moment that it isn't reasonable to expect that you can get both... which would you choose? More speed for everyone or retaining features for a few? If you said more speed for everyone, our friends at DIRECTV with their huge marketing and data gathering budgets agree with you.

*That's a presumption. The presumption that both might be possible also exists.*

There is a solution, as detailed over and over... simply buy a component to composite converter. We buy things all the time to keep our equipment up to date. Just buy that.

*I agree totally. That's what I would do if I used both SD & HD at the same time. My only intent originally was to point out the flaw in the new GUI, and leave room for DIRECTV to address that. If that's truly not possible, I'm more than willing to accept the new GUI as is since it does offer excellent advantages in both speed and clarity for users. However, if the flaw is addressable, then our friends at DIRECTV should have no qualms in working towards that goal.*


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm one of those that use the SD outputs simultaneously with the HD outputs, and this change is an inconvenience for me. However, I can tell you that DIRECTV is keeping close track of customer response, both in forums (here and on their own forums), and from their call centers. They did expect some amount of negative response on this issue, and so far it appears that the actual negative feedback is less than what they predicted (that from a reliable source). Assuming that is true (the negative response is at or below the predicted level), it certainly is not going to result in any change.

This also tells me that from a business perspective, DIRECTV considered the various options and made a business decision that was best for them. They recognized what Stuart pointed out - a large percentage of customers were not satisfied with the old UI, that these changes would address those issues, but at the expense of a very small percentage of customers that would be negatively impacted.

I'm also told by sources at DIRECTV that they cannot offer both HD and SD instances of the UI at the same time without a significant performance impact. I don't know whether or not they could offer an SD only UI to both HD and SD outputs, but another of Stuart's comments suggests that might also be an issue (the SD output would have to be upscaled for HD output) which gets back to possible performance issues.

So for all of us who are impacted by this change, the ball is in our court. We can adjust (using an adapter for example or adding additional receivers), or we can select another service provider that better meets individual needs. There is no single right answer/solution for everyone, it must be an individual choice. As for me, I'll adapt. I like DIRECTV.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

carl6 said:


> I'm also told by sources at DIRECTV that they cannot offer both HD and SD instances of the UI at the same time without a significant performance impact. I don't know whether or not they could offer an SD only UI to both HD and SD outputs, but another of Stuart's comments suggests that might also be an issue (the SD output would have to be upscaled for HD output) which gets back to possible performance issues.


Ok, we get it. It's a performance thing. But does it take a 20 second graphic on the SD outputs to hammer the point home? :nono:

I think that's what is most annoying to us - that constant graphic! We can probably live with workarounds to get a guide on the SD ports - we don't need reminders.

Let's compromise and give those of us who want it a method to suppress the graphic. We'll figure out the rest along the way.


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## DBSNewbie (Nov 3, 2007)

sfpegasus said:


> *This is all fine well and good if you're not using the component port for another TV. I happen to be using all available ports.*
> 
> I did find a shorter workaround that might work for others. Press "1" on the remote to tune to channel 1 (SD channel) then you can bring up the guide without further hassle and without messing up the previous channel resolution.
> 
> At a minimum they need to give us an override for this annoying _20 second_ "feature"





sfpegasus said:


> You misunderstand my post. If DirecTv is going to insist on this, give us the option of suppressing the 20 second message. I'd rather nothing happen on the SD display than tolerate a 20 second message nearly every time a remote button is pressed. We can figure out a way to get to the guide if we need to.
> 
> *But, but, but ..... the component port is already in use.*


A component splitter will do the trick or (if you want something powered),

you can use a component distribution amplifier (1 in, 4 out - with audio), which runs about $70 on Amazon.com

I use that to distribute HD in my system and it works great.

I've also got a Component to Composite converter on the above mentioned Component Amp for use on a SD Monitor in the kitchen nook. No complaints there either.

By the way, if the $70 is a bit too pricey, I'm thinking that a standard AV distribution amp like this (red, white, yellow RCA) could be used instead (to split and distribute only the red, blue, and green of the component video cable). Those are about $40 and possibly cheaper on sites like monoprice, etc.

Just be sure to keep track of which color of the component cable you had plugged in and match it up with the corresponding output.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

^^ Point(s) well taken. I thought my compromise above was a good one, though. Silly thing is -- the Sony TV in the kitchen is HD, I just happen to be using it on the composite port so I wouldn't have any additional hardware to mess with.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

RBTO said:


> For those folks, _*this is a serious flaw*_ which should be addressed in a future D* update!


It is not a flaw. DirecTV did this on purpose.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

sfpegasus said:


> But, but, but ..... the component port is already in use.


Then get another receiver to feed one of the TVs.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

rwmair said:


> At some stage in the past week, my wife had pressed the EXIT button when prompted on one of the SD TV's, and the unit had set itself to 480p only. However I didn't see a big effect on the main HDTV.


Sony eh? 

Seriously, Sony's have a lot of "sharpness" enhancing the PQ out of the box. Some prefer artificial, some dont. As for ESPN, sometimes I swear they use SD widescreen cameras and just sharpen the picture up a little.

If you want to compare the SD vs HD quality of your TV, use a channel like HDNet, HDNMovies, or Smithsonian.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

Another customer that used the modulated output to feed other TVs in my house. I spent the $54 on the converter ($54 with tax and shipping) but was not too happy about that.

I agree the banner that cover 75% of the screen for 20 seconds is obnoxious.

I for one never felt the guide was slow. Waiting for the Guide or List screens to display after pressing the corresponding button is what's slow IMO.

The HD guide is nice but the SD guide was fine too.

What happens when they plug the analog hole?

I could afford more receivers at the other TVs but the reason I don't do it is this: When watching live TV I very often pause the program or rewind up to 90 minutes (love 90 minute buffers). By using the modulated output I can go to another TV and pick up where I left off. Can't do that if the other rooms had their own receivers. If you told me the HMC could do that then I would invest in that setup. Otherwise I will just have to deal with this.

Unfortunately I will have to spend another $54 to add the converter box to my theater DVR or find a really cheap small HD TV. I have an old SD LCD that I use to schedule recordings instead of waiting for the projector to fire up. And I can't program via online or app because Directv doesn't allow padding from those methods (that I know of). I wish they would ad that option, so I can pad my NFL games.

I encourage Directv to find some sort of solution for this. An easy way to toggle between two resolutions would be nice, except when someone else is still watching the HD TV.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

nowandthen said:


> An easy way to toggle between two resolutions would be nice, except when someone else is still watching the HD TV.


Press and hold EXIT.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Can't we get these various threads merged? The one thread that has a solution is locked.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Then get another receiver to feed one of the TVs.


Condo Association won't let me run any more cable in here. I've got what I got.


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## opelap (Nov 4, 2006)

Another dissatisfied customer with this SD Banner. Guess I don't understand how the box can downres a HD video stream with no issues but cannot downres the guide with the same efficiency?

Not happy about having to spend another $50 to keep the functionality I already had.


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## Juppers (Oct 26, 2006)

They say they have done this for speed, yet I don't see this speed they are talking about. The guide is still painfully slow, and it has crippled my addional sets and slingbox. Oh yeah, and now the recording light only works occasionally. At least their software team is living up to the very low bar they have set since they started making their own pathetic software.


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## rwmair (Nov 16, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> Sony eh?
> 
> Seriously, Sony's have a lot of "sharpness" enhancing the PQ out of the box. Some prefer artificial, some dont. As for ESPN, sometimes I swear they use SD widescreen cameras and just sharpen the picture up a little.
> 
> If you want to compare the SD vs HD quality of your TV, use a channel like HDNet, HDNMovies, or Smithsonian.


OK - good point. I'll try the test again with a channel like HDNet vs a Std Def channel. I'll also "unhide SD duplicates" and contrast the SD and HD versions of the same channel.

Still, if the Sony influences the PQ itself, I don't understand why it makes ESPN-HD look good when the receiver is only outputting 480p, but can't make BBC America-SD look similarly sharp.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

rwmair said:


> Still, if the Sony influences the PQ itself, I don't understand why it makes ESPN-HD look good when the receiver is only outputting 480p, but can't make BBC America-SD look similarly sharp.


OK, first, do not compare your TV's SD vs HD capabilities using a DirecTv SD channel. They are totally over compressed and wont provide a quality comparison. You will NEVER get a DirecTV SD channel to look even as good as a DVD (also 480). I have a $500 video processor, and cannot make DirecTV SD channels look like anything but muck. It helps, but gets no where near unprocessed DVD's.

Use one of the above mentioned HD channels, and switch the DVR/receiver from 480i to 1080i using the format button (old GUI) or EXIT (new GUI) with NATIVE OFF. This will let the DVR change the resolution using the same source material, giving you a better idea of each of the resolutions, and at what point stepping up from 480 thru 1080 gives the best results on your TV. It SHOULD look progressively better on each step up.

Also note that the viewing distance vs screen size matters. There are points at which you are to far away from a given screen size to be able to notice any improvements.


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## mfryd (Jan 1, 2010)

It's a shame that DirecTV is misrepresenting the situation to their subscribers. There's an easy solution that will make everyone happy.

Obviously, the current hardware is capable of a standard definition guide overlaying a high def picture. That's what the old software did.

Although the new GUI looks good in HD, it also looks just fine in 480i. You can see for yourself by setting the receiver to 480i.




The option that would make everyone happy would be to give users an option to lock the new GUI to 480i. This would allow the GUI to appear simultaneously on the SD and HD outputs. For those of us who simultaneously use both outputs, this would solve our problem with the new GUI. Those who don't use simultaneous output, could see the new GUI in high def.


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## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

tonyoci said:


> All this converting is pretty disappointing. I route my systems through the house over RF for other rooms (kids etc.)


I do the same. I am NOT interested in paying more $$$ just because DirecTV decided that we "needed" a new GUI, although the previous one worked fine! :nono2:

I've about had my fill of DirecTV nonsense!


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## Scooter22 (Jun 22, 2007)

I keep reading about component to composite, but what about people like me who distribute video and audio over coax (RG6)? The HR20 is connected with HDMI to our 52" LCD TV and I send the audio and video over coax to my kitchen TV.
It's a 20" television that fits perfectly in a nook over the ovens. I don't want to spend more money for a smaller widescreen television. I also don't want to buy another receiver as I already have 6 running in the house as it is.

I'm going to have buy 2 converters (Component to Coax) to make this work, right?
I have cat5e and coax runs just about everywhere in my house, so I could also distribute it over the network if needed. 

I guess the component to coax converters are my best choice (read cheapest), right?


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Scooter22 said:


> I keep reading about component to composite, but what about people like me who distribute video and audio over coax (RG6)? The HR20 is connected with HDMI to our 52" LCD TV and I send the audio and video over coax to my kitchen TV.
> It's a 20" television that fits perfectly in a nook over the ovens. I don't want to spend more money for a smaller widescreen television. I also don't want to buy another receiver as I already have 6 running in the house as it is.
> 
> I'm going to have buy 2 converters (Component to Coax) to make this work, right?
> ...


What sort of "coax distribution setup" do you have? The HR20 doesn't have a Coax OUT, so you must already be using the HR20's Composite Video OUT to feed your "coax distribution" box, right? Just stick a Component-to-Composite Video Converter in between the HR20 and your "coax distribution" box input and you'll be fine.


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## Scooter22 (Jun 22, 2007)

litzdog911 said:


> What sort of "coax distribution setup" do you have? The HR20 doesn't have a Coax OUT, so you must already be using the HR20's Composite Video OUT to feed your "coax distribution" box, right? Just stick a Component-to-Composite Video Converter in between the HR20 and your "coax distribution" box input and you'll be fine.


That makes sense now. Currently, I have my HR20 connected to a composite to RF (coax) adapter then it's sent to the kitchen over RG6 and connected to the cable/antenna input on the kitchen TV.

Hmm. Wait a minute... That takes care of the video, how's it going to handle the audio portion of this?

I realize you help a LOT of members here, litzdog911, so thanks for taking the time to help me. :up:


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## Scooter22 (Jun 22, 2007)

Oy.. I think I got it figured out. Convert the component output from the HR20 with a component video to composite adapter like you said and leave the RCA (red and white) connectors hooked up to the original composite to RF adapter. 

I've made several edits on my previous post, so I'm sorry if I confused any of you.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

NFLnut said:


> I do the same. I am NOT interested in paying more $$$ just because DirecTV decided that we "needed" a new GUI, although the previous one worked fine! :nono2:
> 
> I've about had my fill of DirecTV nonsense!


Yeah, I'd get all upset over this, too, if I was you.

The nerve of those guys to eliminate a feature used by a few in favor of a feature enjoyed by virtually everyone. 



Get over it. Engineering is a series of choices. An engineer makes the best ones he thinks he can. Some of those choices will displease people. The goal is to make ones that fulfill the design parameters, will please the most, be reliable and not cost too much.

You lost. A whole lot more people won.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

Scooter22 said:


> Oy.. I think I got it figured out. Convert the component output from the HR20 with a component video to composite adapter like you said and leave the RCA (red and white) connectors hooked up to the original composite to RF adapter.
> 
> I've made several edits on my previous post, so I'm sorry if I confused any of you.


No worries. You got it. Glad to help!


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> You lost. A whole lot more people won.


Can I use this quote when they suddenly drop eSATA support? After all, it's not officially supported either.

A manager made that choice. The engineer compiles the list of pros and cons for the manager. The manager then ignores the list and makes decisions based on budgets and profit margins. 

D* had no idea how many people used that function. It was just an educated guess on their part. It wouldn't surprise me that more people use it than they thought. But the fact they took the time and money to implement the exit button workaround is not good news.

If D* can control it, a five second pop up vs. a 20 second pop-up would help at least some of the people.

With all of that said, I do think the HD GUI was needed to keep up with competitors. The fact that some people have had a reduction in functionality is an unfortunate outcome.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Can I use this quote when they suddenly drop eSATA support? After all, it's not officially supported either.


You sure they could even disable it, since its in the hardware? And they would rewrite all their "power on self-check" software to remove it? And everyone would just take their eSATA drives and pop them internally...after being ticked off for the hassle? And DirecTv would gain what?


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

It's all about increasing your monthly charges . D* has been eliminating features for many moons now. I have been a subscriber since 1994. I have seen DD surround sound added which required a new receiver and an additional monthly charge. DVR's were introduced including the HR10-250. It was obsoleted, because D* cut their partnership with TIVO and changed video compression to MP4. Cost to me was over $1000. The HR20 had OTA capabilities and composite video out. The HR21 does not. When the HR20 died, I had to purchase an AM21 adapter and a component to RF converter. If you wanted to get VOD, Gaming, Media Share and Apps, you had to run ethernet or purchase a wireless bridge adapter for each receiver or DVR. The HR21 and HR22 had ethernet pass-through. This was great because I ran my DVR and Sony PS3 from the same wireless bridge. The HR24 does not have the ethernet pass-through and the HD-UI creates a little troube for component to composite. I purchased a switch to connect the DVR and PS3 to my network. I can live with the manual switching from 1080 to 480. I suspect D* will eliminate ethernet from their future equipment and force their customers to whole-house networking. Also, I can see D* like everyone else move to the cloud data model which would permit the elimination of the HDD. It is all about the money, monthly revenue. Why do I stay with D*? Because they are better than any of the other media providers which include: Charter, Dish, Comcast, and AT&T U-verse. That's my two cents. Now let the argument begin.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

They've added many more features than they've removed or moved. Ethernet pass through was always a bad idea. They have eliminated Ethernet on the H25, but that was partly space savings.

The switch to MPEG4 was a good thing.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

No argument from me. As each progressive step in the evolution from 150 SD channels to multiple SD satellites and more channels, to high definition with even more satellites and a new compression, we upgraded. Did we have to upgrade? Nope. My original 18" dish and RCA receiver still works. I dont use it because I chose to follow the upgrade path to HD. All I really see Directv doing is adding features while simplifying (hence less cost) their boxes to match their business model.

Those like you, and I and many others on here, that use the system for complex in home distribution systems, multiple DVRs, other video devices connected... Well, we are not the norm. And I really dont think DirecTv pays to much attention to the handful of us that might be a little inconvenienced to add a box or converter here and there to maintain our systems.

The only thing I disagree with in your post, is that they will move to a cloud based model eliminating the HDD. That would imply every customer who wanted DVR service would have to maintain a hefty internet connection, and most customers in the boonies are lucky if they can get much faster than dial-up, or cell ba$ed connections. I dont see them eliminating the HDD from the DVR. I do see them switching to a solid state drive, once that device matures enough to support multiply R/W cycles without degrading.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Can I use this quote when they suddenly drop eSATA support? After all, it's not officially supported either.


Considering they have information on adding an external drive on their website I'd say it's supported. If not officially definitely more so than using all the outputs to feed multiple TVs instead of getting another receiver just to save $6 a month.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

allenn said:


> It's all about increasing your monthly charges.


No it's not. How many times does it need to be said that they did this to increase the speed of the unit???


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Davenlr said:


> You sure they could even disable it, since its in the hardware? And they would rewrite all their "power on self-check" software to remove it? And everyone would just take their eSATA drives and pop them internally...after being ticked off for the hassle? And DirecTv would gain what?


Simple. If there's a bug or easy work-around to bypass the encryption of the recorded video on external hard drives, D* would have to disable eSATA immediately to avoid being sued by pretty much every content owner. If that bug were in hardware, the disabling would be permanent. I know it's a long shot, but then again we're talking about an unexpected hardware limitation that doesn't allow them to output the GUI in HD and SD simultaneously.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> No it's not. How many times does it need to be said that they did this to increase the speed of the unit???


That's not why they did it. If it is, then they failed, as the speed increase is not consistent across the various GUI actions. They did it because their competitors are rolling out HD GUIs, and they needed to keep up with them. The speed "increase" is a nice bonus.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> Considering they have information on adding an external drive on their website I'd say it's supported. If not officially definitely more so than using all the outputs to feed multiple TVs instead of getting another receiver just to save $6 a month.


Please read the fine print on the bottom of this web page:

http://news.directv.com/2011/08/11/increase-recording-capacity-on-your-dvr-or-hd-dvr/


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

In this day and age there's just no excuse for a laggy user interface, let alone crippling the device in some manner to slightly improve it.

If the DVR isn't fast enough to run the software, then either optimize the software so it runs faster - or supply your customers with hardware that runs it correctly *WITHOUT* requiring them to lose their recordings.

Their quick and dirty kludge of disabling the SD UI overlay did not fix the responsiveness issues. 

DirecTv has had some terrific ideas in their development of their DVR, but the hardware is not keeping pace and they seem incapable of improving their s/w. 

The media player capability of the box is a great example of this, as on the surface it's very convenient but when it comes to execution it's slow, the UI is poor, it doesn't support rudimentary capabilities such as FF/REW, and when it fails it takes 5 minutes to get back to where you were. While devices like Apple TV and Roku continue to define and refine what a media player interface should look like, DirecTv hasn't touched their media player code in years.

DirecTv (and every company making consumer appliances these days) needs to ask itself that if the interface their providing was on the Apple/Android App Market, would people actually choose to download and run it? 

The UI can no longer be an afterthought soaking up CPU cycles not being used by the other operations of the DVR. If a cell phone can dedicate dual cores just to make a quarter HD UI snappy to use, then DVR manufacturers need to follow suit and provide adequate processing.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> That's not why they did it. If it is, then they failed, as the speed increase is not consistent across the various GUI actions. They did it because their competitors are rolling out HD GUIs, and they needed to keep up with them. The speed "increase" is a nice bonus.


It IS why they did it. They specifically told us that!


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Please read the fine print on the bottom of this web page:
> 
> http://news.directv.com/2011/08/11/increase-recording-capacity-on-your-dvr-or-hd-dvr/


You may want to re-read my post where I said "If not officially....".


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> It IS why they did it. They specifically told us that!


Do you believe everything you're told? Companies don't go out of their way to piss off their customer base. I have no doubt they were under orders to create a new UI because someone decided it's what they had to do for competitive purposes and when they discovered it ran unacceptably slow on their h/w in the field they took the path of least resistance, removed functionality, and tried to tell everyone it was a feature because the new UI is so much faster than the old one when in reality it's not.

They just crippled our hardware without even so much giving us an option to work in some other mode that would retain compatibility at a cost of speed.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> Do you believe everything you're told? Companies don't go out of their way to piss off their customer base. I have no doubt they were under orders to create a new UI because someone decided it's what they had to do for competitive purposes and when they discovered it ran unacceptably slow on their h/w in the field they took the path of least resistance, removed functionality, and tried to tell everyone it was a feature because the new UI is so much faster than the old one when in reality it's not.
> 
> They just crippled our hardware without even so much giving us an option to work in some other mode that would retain compatibility at a cost of speed.


I can't go into details but we got our information from a VERY reliable source. He even went into why eliminating SD graphics sped up the UI. Believe it or not, I really don't care and I'm tired of repeating myself.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Runner, I believe you. I don't know what source you heard it from, but I heard the same thing from an utterly impeachable source.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

D* is a for-profit-company. Everything they do has a profit motive. If they did not practice sound judgement and were not profitable, D* would be gone. The reason D* has eliminated things like OTA, composite output, and ethernet pass-through is to save money and protect their digital media from sharing ($$). D*'s previous GUI was the best, and their new HD-UI will keep them ahead of their competition, more customers, more money. The HR34 is a move toward streaming video and complete media control. The cloud is coming to D* soon. Why? Saves delivery and equipment costs which is the reason Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, and others are moving to the cloud. Many corporation have moved to thin client PCs which simplifies and reduces cost. I see a thin client D* receiver in our future.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

:nono2:


JonW said:


> Do you believe everything you're told? Companies don't go out of their way to piss off their customer base. I have no doubt they were under orders to create a new UI because someone decided it's what they had to do for competitive purposes and when they discovered it ran unacceptably slow on their h/w in the field they took the path of least resistance, removed functionality, and tried to tell everyone it was a feature because the new UI is so much faster than the old one when in reality it's not.
> 
> *They just crippled our hardware without even so much giving us an option to work in some other mode that would retain compatibility at a cost of speed.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> Your hardware is not crippled it just doesn't work how you want it to. It does however work how DIRECTV designed it to.
> 
> It's really not that difficult of a choice, either get converter box, get another receiver, or watch in SD. :nono2:


No, crippled is the correct term for something that used to work and then was broken and no longer works.

It was designed to support simultaneous output, that's why it did it from inception. You could argue that it was not designed with an HD UI in mind.

I have no clue why you guys keep going out of your way to TRY to apologize for DirecTv.

Oh, and btw, you forgot another option I have ... which is to cancel my service and switch to FIOS which is less expensive, offers a much quicker DVR, a HD UI, and supports simultaneous multiple outputs without kludges or bugs. Oddly enough they don't support multiple remote ID codes, but I can work around that. Their NBA league pass offering is grossly inferior, but hey, as you say thin clients are the future and if they'd clean up the app some I'd gladly watch the games using my Roku.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Runner, I believe you. I don't know what source you heard it from, but I heard the same thing from an utterly impeachable source.


I wish they wasted less time prepping you guys for their impending PR crisis and more time adding an option that let things continue to work like they used to do for those who need it.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> No, crippled is the correct term for something that used to work and then was broken and no longer works.
> 
> It was designed to support simultaneous output, that's why it did it from inception. You could argue that it was not designed with an HD UI in mind.
> 
> ...


It was not designed to be installed or supported that way. The absence of enforcement of something is not the same as condoning it to be considered something that you're entitled to.

Good luck with FIOS.



JonW said:


> I wish they wasted less time prepping you guys for their impending PR crisis and more time adding an option that let things continue to work like they used to do for those who need it.


There's no PR work here some of us have people we can talk to so we know real reasons for changes. Some of us post those reasons for others to know. I can't speak for others but when I post them it's so people understand. If people choose to not agree or like it then that's their issue.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

JonW said:


> you forgot another option I have ... which is to cancel my service and switch to FIOS.


It's a free country. If you don't like the hardware as it is now delivered, then you should do this by all means.

I am certain DirecTV won't care. Users in your position, especially users who refuse to implement relatively easy work arounds, are few. The majority of folks like the change to the new HD GUI. Heck, the vast majority of users have no idea the SD outputs were alway live on their HD receiver in the past but aren't now.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> It's a free country. If you don't like the hardware as it is now delivered, then you should do this by all means.
> 
> I am certain DirecTV won't care. Users in your position, especially users who refuse to implement relatively easy work arounds, are few. The majority of folks like the change to the new HD GUI. Heck, the vast majority of users have no idea the SD outputs were alway live on the HD receiver in the past but aren't now.


Ahh, another apologist.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

No. DirecTV doesn't give a flying **** about me, either.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> It was not designed to be installed or supported that way. The absence of enforcement of something is not the same as condoning it to be considered something that you're entitled to.
> 
> Good luck with FIOS.


I can't recall DirecTv "condoning" anything I've done with their DVRs.

I'm "entitled" to everything the box did when I purchased it.



Shades228 said:


> Good luck with FIOS.


Thanks!



Shades228 said:


> There's no PR work here some of us have people we can talk to so we know real reasons for changes. Some of us post those reasons for others to know. I can't speak for others but when I post them it's so people understand. If people choose to not agree or like it then that's their issue.


Which is acting as an unofficial PR outlet for DirecTv, and helping to protect their interests. I'm sure they'd post the information they wanted users to understand themselves, but then they'd have to actually answer for their decisions. :O


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Ladies and Gentlemen, 

Let's talk about the topic, not each other. 

If a person chooses to go with a different provider, if this is the breaking point for them, let's respect that and wish them well honestly, not sarcastically. 

There are many multichannel providers and if this latest update means DIRECTV isn't for you, that's ok.


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## adkinsjm (Mar 25, 2003)

"JonW" said:


> I can't recall DirecTv "condoning" anything I've done with their DVRs.
> 
> I'm "entitled" to everything the box did when I purchased it.
> 
> ...


You don't own the box.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> I can't go into details but we got our information from a VERY reliable source. He even went into why eliminating SD graphics sped up the UI. Believe it or not, I really don't care and I'm tired of repeating myself.


So the HR20 runs a bit slower, the HR24 has a marginal speed increase, the other boxes show some speed increase but nothing earth-shattering, and D* developed and rolled out a major software change primarily for speed? I'm just having a tough time believing it.

I'm sure supporting both GUIs made the boxes slower, so they threw out the SD GUI. If D* was backed into that corner, then that's the correct decision. Because unless something drastic happened during development, it was HD or bust. That way, they can show pretty pictures (not movies) of their sharp, crisp GUI just like their competitors do.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

adkinsjm said:


> You don't own the box.


It don't see how that matters, I'm not looking to sue them. I'm looking for them to fix a feature they broke and not just brush their removal of it under the rug.

Ever hear the saying ... "the customer is always right?". It's not a legal term, it's a way of handling customer service in order to build a business the right way.

btw, I noticed my play list navigated much faster when I had my other DVR unplugged. Maybe DirecTv should just eliminate the multi-room viewing option to improve speed? That'd be so much simpler than say adding an option to let the user decide if they want a combined or separate play list ...


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

JonW said:


> ...... I'm looking for them to fix a feature they broke and not just brush their removal of it under the rug.
> 
> Ever hear the saying ... "the customer is always right?". It's not a legal term, it's a way of handling customer service in order to build a business the right way....


I agree with you on this one. I have been a subscriber since 1994, and I have seen many features disappear which in most cases has cost me $$. The new HD-UI is great, but it did cost those of us that use multi-room SD viewing additional equipment and manual adjustments for its continued use. I think D* is pushing MRV which is why they have slowly made component to composite more difficult. This started when the composite output was deleted from the HR21 DVR. I would not be surprised to see the component outputs deleted. Times, they are a changing. It is all about the $$$.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

DIRECTV never advertised the fact that you could use any of their HD receivers to control multiple TV's. DIRECTV never authorized or supported any installations setup in this manner with their HD receivers. So they never took anything from you. What they did is made a change that betters the experience for people using their products the way they're intended to be used.

This UI has been going on for awhile and major markets are already on it. This thread has more people saying how they didn't do anything wrong than they did. There's a reason for that and it's that it's impact on overall viewers is negligible.

You should just focus on the fact that for a long time you were able to do something and it saved you money. You can choose to continue to do it if you want but it requires you to do something. However you never lost a feature that was sold to you.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Shades228 said:


> However you never lost a feature that was sold to you.


 Three words: HR10-250 (TIVO) and antenna. I think $1060 was a costly lost feature! I would be happy to sell the DVR to you for $500, and I will throw in the antenna.

The SD issue is small change. I spent approx $2000 for equipment to join the D* club in 1994. I think they are the best media provider today which is why I have stayed with them. But I respectfully disagree with your premise that it is ok to remove features and not credit the customer for their expense. If you don't want people to use something, then don't put it on the equipment.

Recently, I purchased a network adapter from D*, so I could get VOD. Now D* wants me to eat the adapter expense and add MRV. I guess the past expenses will prevent my investing in future enhancements. I do not know how much you have invested in D*, but it sounds like you are an employee and not a customer. D* would be well served to practice "The customer is always right". Times they are a changing. Remember Block Buster? Have a nice day!


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Shades228 said:


> DIRECTV never advertised the fact that you could use any of their HD receivers to control multiple TV's. DIRECTV never authorized or supported any installations setup in this manner with their HD receivers. So they never took anything from you. What they did is made a change that betters the experience for people using their products the way they're intended to be used.


Actually, the new GUI looks pretty bad when downconverted to SD. The experience is worse. The fonts are a little too small, the PIG has shrank, and the white/gray on black is a strain to read. Ironically, the HD GUI has not downloaded on the box connected to the HDTV, though I suspect it will look nice on that large TV. But some of us live in MPEG4-local markets and can't afford to upgrade all their TVs to HD. It looks bad on a 36" SD set in letterbox mode.

Also, some installers actually did perform the unsupported installations without telling the customer they were unsupported. I think D* should give these people a credit to offset the cost of the converter box and be done with it.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> DIRECTV never advertised the fact that you could use any of their HD receivers to control multiple TV's. DIRECTV never authorized or supported any installations setup in this manner with their HD receivers. So they never took anything from you. What they did is made a change that betters the experience for people using their products the way they're intended to be used.


lol, you make it sound like I tore open the box and soldered video outputs to the circuit board.

Stop making excuses for them.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> lol, you make it sound like I tore open the box and soldered video outputs to the circuit board.
> 
> Stop making excuses for them.


He's not making excuses, he's providing facts. Just because you don't like the facts it doesn't make them excuses.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Ok just the facts: D* removed the documented TOSLINK port from the HR34. Since I need the optical and the digital ports, please suggest a non-monetary solution. I am not alone on this one, because another member has started a thread about the missing TOSLINK port.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

allenn said:


> Ok just the facts: D* removed the documented TOSLINK port from the HR34. Since I need the optical and the digital ports, please suggest a non-monetary solution. I am not alone on this one, because another member has started a thread about the missing TOSLINK port.


You are needing two digital audio outputs? Is that what I am reading here? And one has to be optical?

How about one of these: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=6261&seq=1&format=2
plugged into a coax to optical converter.

This board is screwing up links...here is the data:



> 6inch RCA Female to 2-RCA Male Digital Coaxial Splitter Adapter
> 
> Quantity
> 
> ...


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> He's not making excuses, he's providing facts. Just because you don't like the facts it doesn't make them excuses.


The only "fact" is DirecTv removed a standard feature that many of their customers (including me) were relying on.

For another user of the service to say anything beyond "that sucks, I hope they find a way to fix that for you guys" is highly questionable.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Davenlr said:


> You are needing two digital audio outputs? Is that what I am reading here? And one has to be optical?
> 
> How about one of these: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=6261&seq=1&format=2
> plugged into a coax to optical converter.
> ...


An RCA Y-cable works great for standard audio, but probably not for digital audio because it's 75 ohm terminated like video.


----------



## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

JonW said:


> An RCA Y-cable works great for standard audio, but probably not for digital audio because it's 75 ohm terminated like video.


Well, their website lists it as a digital splitter cable, so guess a phone call to them would provide the answer. I dont know...never had to have two separate digital audio inputs.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> The only "fact" is DirecTv removed a standard feature that many of their customers (including me) were relying on.
> 
> For another user of the service to say anything beyond "that sucks, I hope they find a way to fix that for you guys" is highly questionable.


There was no "feature" removed, get over it.


----------



## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

JonW said:


> In this day and age there's just no excuse for a laggy user interface, let alone crippling the device in some manner to slightly improve it.
> 
> If the DVR isn't fast enough to run the software, then either optimize the software so it runs faster - or supply your customers with hardware that runs it correctly *WITHOUT* requiring them to lose their recordings.
> 
> ...


AMEN!! The best summary of the issues I've seen...


----------



## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> There was no "feature" removed, get over it.


What do you call the TOSLINK port if it is not a feature? My Denon AVR has two digital input ports: TOSLINK and digital co-axial. I have an HR34 and another device which only has digital co-axial. How do I connect them to the AVR? Remember no additional bucks. Unlike you, some of us don't have unlimited funds to cover the costs of D*s changes.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

allenn said:


> What do you call the TOSLINK port if it is not a feature?


That's a completely different argument.


----------



## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

allenn said:


> Ok just the facts: D* removed the documented TOSLINK port from the HR34. Since I need the optical and the digital ports, please suggest a non-monetary solution. I am not alone on this one, because another member has started a thread about the missing TOSLINK port.


How can something be "removed" from the HR34 if it was never there to begin with? Other newer HD Receivers also no longer have optical audio outputs. And the H25 doesn't even have an ethernet port.

As you already know, there's no "non-monetary solution" to your dilemma.


----------



## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

litzdog911 said:


> How can something be "removed" from the HR34 if it was never there to begin with?.....


 Very funny! You cannot remove something which was not there to begin with. It is a matter of semantics which you knew before the comment was made. You got the point. Thanks for the laugh! Have a great day!


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

litzdog911 said:


> How can something be "removed" from the HR34 if it was never there to begin with? Other newer HD Receivers also no longer have optical audio outputs. And the H25 doesn't even have an ethernet port.
> 
> As you already know, there's no "non-monetary solution" to your dilemma.


Sure there is. It's the get up and swap the cable out yourself solution.



JonW said:


> Is your goal to get the thread locked? Attacking fellow users/customers with legitimate issues with the latest s/w update is not staying on topic.


Thought you were going to FIOS?


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

allenn said:


> Very funny! You cannot remove something which was not there to begin with. It is a matter of semantics which you knew before the comment was made. You got the point. Thanks for the laugh! Have a great day!


Take it to the HR34 threads that are out there. This doesn't have anything to do with the HDGUI.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> Thought you were going to FIOS?


I've been running both for a while now. It's a pain in the rear to work off a 4TB backlog ...


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Over the history of the HR line, there have been several iterations where one model may have coaxial, another may have toslink, this is nothing new, not all the boxes have both, and usually when one gets removed its the toslink output. Nothing new here. With the majority of users using HDMI for their HD setups(I DIDNT say all), its a completely unnecessary connection.


----------



## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

OK, let's all take a minute and breathe. We have a very legitimate topic here and I want to keep this thread open. 

Moving forward, your posts will be deleted without warning if you address each other's motives or actions instead of discussing the topic. 

Thanks for understanding.


----------



## SparkyX (Jul 15, 2009)

If anyone was waiting, Monoprice's "Component (YpbPr) to Composite Converter" just came back into stock. The stock notification email I received said there were 119 in stock. $49.80 out the door with USPS Priority shipping.

www .monoprice .com/products/product.asp?p_id=7114

(Sorry for the munged URL. Less than five posts y'know.)


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

When I bought a Honda Element in 2004, it had a sunroof. Looking at a new one in 2011, I noticed the sunroof had been removed in favor of better roll-over protection.

My first computer had a serial jack. Now try to find a computer with one. Instead, there are USB and HDMI connections. I still use a serial connection all the time. Many whole house stereo systems and some remote programming devices use serial connections. I have to use a USB to serial adapter to make them work.

How long has it been since you've seen a car with a manual choke? On an older car, I liked them. A manual choke makes it run better initially.

I hate self service check-out counters at markets. I want some 17 year old pimple faced kid to bag my groceries. That's becoming harder and harder to find.

I don't find timers on coffee pots as common as they once were. I want my Mr. Coffee to have my cup of jo ready when I roll out of bed.

If I was God, all stereos would have bass, treble and balance controls. Now a lot of them don't, especially home theater receivers.

Features come and features go. It's the way of the world.


----------



## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

Stuart Sweet said:


> OK, let's all take a minute and breathe. We have a very legitimate topic here and I want to keep this thread open.
> 
> Moving forward, your posts will be deleted without warning if you address each other's motives or actions instead of discussing the topic.
> 
> Thanks for understanding.


Great idea. Now that we've all had an opportunity to vent, how about we propose some solutions? And how can we get them implemented? I'll start:

1) shorten the 20-second graphic display?
2) eliminate the graphic display entirely? (we get it and we're living with it)


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

sfpegasus said:


> Great idea. Now that we've all had an opportunity to vent, how about we propose some solutions? And how can we get them implemented? I'll start:
> 
> 1) shorten the 20-second graphic display?
> 2) eliminate the graphic display entirely? (we get it and we're living with it)


20 seconds is a bit long, agreed. I don't think you can eliminate it though because on down the road they'll have new customers and this is how they tell them about it.


----------



## JohnDG (Aug 16, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> With the majority of users using HDMI for their HD setups(I DIDNT say all), its a completely unnecessary connection.


Information request only: using HDMI to connect the TV, what do you use to separately connect your AVR? Or do you always turn on your AVR when you want to watch TV?

jdg


----------



## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> 20 seconds is a bit long, agreed. I don't think you can eliminate it though because on down the road they'll have new customers and this is how they tell them about it.


I think down the road they can shorten it. It's 20 seconds long now to give the customers the time to read it. Also, it's to remind the installer to not do that. After three months or so, everyone will know if existing installations have been impacted by the removal of the feature, and installers will be aware as well. After that, the message just needs to be a friendly reminder, and 5 seconds is long enough for that.


----------



## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> When I bought a Honda Element in 2004, it had a sunroof. Looking at a new one in 2011, I noticed the sunroof had been removed in favor of better roll-over protection.
> 
> Features come and features go. It's the way of the world.


Yeah, but nobody removed the sunroof on your car in the middle of the night!


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Yeah, but nobody removed the sunroof on your car in the middle of the night!


Bingo.

The solution is simple. Give us an option that let's the DVR present an SD compatible UI out all ports. If even Verizon was able to pull this off with their new HD UI, I'm sure DirecTv's s/w engineers can manage it. Heck, the old Verizon UI wasn't even widescreen.

Kick the bean counters to the side and let the engineers do their job.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

sfpegasus said:


> Great idea. Now that we've all had an opportunity to vent, how about we propose some solutions? And how can we get them implemented? I'll start:
> 
> 1) shorten the 20-second graphic display?
> 2) eliminate the graphic display entirely? (we get it and we're living with it)


Here are the following solutions:


Buy an adapter
Ignore the message
Change the resolution when on that TV
Get a receiver for that room
Cancel service
Everything else was discussed ad naseum when we were testing this and it came up that DIRECTV chose to put an message and a 1 button solution to change the resolution as the fix.


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

JohnDG said:


> Information request only: using HDMI to connect the TV, what do you use to separately connect your AVR? Or do you always turn on your AVR when you want to watch TV?
> 
> jdg


My dvr is not connected directly to my tv, it is only connected through my avr. My avr automatically turns on when the tv turns on, BUT my avr also has HDMI pass-thru so it doesnt need to be on to watch tv through my dvr as long as it was on the input I want to watch when it was shut off. So I don't have anything to separately connect my dvr to my avr.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV folks have told me that among the entire subscriber base, the need to use HD and SD at the same time is fairly rare, and the desire for a faster, more legible UI is almost universal.


(1) They never asked ME. Did I miss where DirecTV actually ASKED their customers how they use the product? I have a fairly sophisticated setup, but I am more than certain that even amongst rather unsophisticated subscribers there are a large number who (a) have run coax from their sole DVR to share to another room or three (heck .. I have several family members doing this at their homes right now), and (b) are doing (a) because they're too broke to spring for another DVR.

My guess is that DirecTV is doing this to force people to pay for MRV (which I have NO interest in, thank you!).

(2) The new guide is hardly legible from a distance, even with a fairly large screen, and I don't notice that much of a speed improvement. I want the old one back if it means that I don't have to down-res the HDTV in the living room that my wife is watching while I watch in the office.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

NFLnut said:


> (1) They never asked ME. Did I miss where DirecTV actually ASKED their customers how they use the product? I have a fairly sophisticated setup, but I am more than certain that even amongst rather unsophisticated subscribers there are a large number who (a) have run coax from their sole DVR to share to another room or three (heck .. I have several family members doing this at their homes right now), and (b) are doing (a) because they're too broke to spring for another DVR.
> 
> My guess is that DirecTV is doing this to force people to pay for MRV (which I have NO interest in, thank you!).
> 
> (2) The new guide is hardly legible from a distance, even with a fairly large screen, and I don't notice that much of a speed improvement. I want the old one back if it means that I don't have to down-res the HDTV in the living room that my wife is watching while I watch in the office.


Almost all of the major markets are done and quite a bit of the secondary markets are completed as well. Go through this thread and count how many are upset and how many have just said they need to purchase an adapter. You won't need more than 2 hands.

They didn't ask because they don't need to. As it was stated many times it was never an authorized setup. Even if there were 18,000 customers with this setup you're talking less than .1% of their consumer base is impacted and I think 18k is being generous. I would bet it's less than 5k.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> Almost all of the major markets are done and quite a bit of the secondary markets are completed as well. Go through this thread and count how many are upset and how many have just said they need to purchase an adapter. You won't need more than 2 hands.
> 
> They didn't ask because they don't need to. As it was stated many times it was never an authorized setup. Even if there were 18,000 customers with this setup you're talking less than .1% of their consumer base is impacted and I think 18k is being generous. I would bet it's less than 5k.


How many D* subscribers use this board? I would say that it would be close to 0.01%.

Your premise is ridiculous.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


----------



## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


Oh come on. That's unrealistic. DirecTV made some conscious design choices to speed up the user interface with native HiDef graphics. Extensive testing was done for several months before this was rolled out. I'm pretty sure they never expected 100% of their customers to be happy about it, but DirecTV will have to deal with any fall out. And we get to decide if we like the changes, can live with changes, or jump ship. I won't be jumping ship


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

NFLnut said:


> How many D* subscribers use this board? I would say that it would be close to 0.01%.
> 
> Your premise is ridiculous.


I'm sure a mod could give you how many unique views hit this thread. In fact a google search pops right to it. You could also check DIRECTV's forum's and other sites. You'll find the same thing. It's common to want it to be more impactful so you feel that you have more of a voice. I get it but it doesn't change the fact that if you opened a poll, begged and pleaded, and then linked the poll to every site you could possibly think of you wouldn't get a number larger than 5% of those that disconnect in a month.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


Perhaps you should read this thread: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=200129

Given the fact that they could have changed the font and someone would have been negatively impacted somehow. So they're doing the best thing they can for their business. They're doing something for the majority and not the minority.


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


All I can say is wow. I would have never though in a million years that someone would actually think that could be true in modern society. Shocking. :eek2:

Modern companies have millions of customers, every change that is made affects someone. Using your flawed logic nothing could ever be changed ever.

Come to think about it, I'm actually appalled that someone could actually think that could be even remotely true.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


That's insane...


----------



## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> I think down the road they can shorten it. It's 20 seconds long now to give the customers the time to read it. Also, it's to remind the installer to not do that. After three months or so, everyone will know if existing installations have been impacted by the removal of the feature, and installers will be aware as well. After that, the message just needs to be a friendly reminder, and 5 seconds is long enough for that.


That and they could make it smaller.


----------



## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


Usually in these situations, as I keep saying, the provider gives a credit to the few customers negatively impacted. Call D* and say you don't like the new GUI, and request a credit to help cover the box. Even something like 3 months free Showtime.

FYI, one customer negatively impacted is 100% correct when you're dealing with something like the ADA. You can face millions in fines. But for something like this, not as much.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> Modern companies have millions of customers, every change that is made affects someone. Using your flawed logic nothing could ever be changed ever.


Actually, you're drawing conclusions and applying "flawed logic".

The goal of any company when trying to improve a product that is AUTOMATICALLY UPDATED WITHOUT CONSENT should be to avoid negatively impacting their customer base.

What you guys are arguing is something along the lines of "acceptable losses" ... which is the sort of thinking that got Ford Motors in to so much trouble. Fortunately, my DVR isn't going to kill me if I can't bring up the UI over my Slingbox.

So, the question here is whether DirecTv even tried to avoid the potential damage ... and I see no evidence of this. All I've seen was a pre-emptive viral PR campaign to try to contain damages and some hasty kludges.

Sorry, press-hold doesn't get it done and I'm pretty sure I pointed that out well before they implemented it.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Usually in these situations, as I keep saying, the provider gives a credit to the few customers negatively impacted. Call D* and say you don't like the new GUI, and request a credit to help cover the box. Even something like 3 months free Showtime.


I could, but it wouldn't fix the problem. Heck, even if they promised me 3 free STBs for life to hook up to my 2 other TVs and my Slingbox, I'd probably turn them down because I have no interest in adding all that equipment.


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

JonW said:


> One customer negatively impacted is one too many.


A famous misquote of Abraham Lincoln comes into play here:

_You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time._

Come to think of it, *JonW* would probably agree to the accurate quote, where you substitute "fool" for "please".

The quote works both ways.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> A famous misquote of Abraham Lincoln comes into play here:
> 
> _You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time._


I'm sure many a Ford Pinto customer was comforted by that quote as they burned to death because Ford decided it would be cheaper to just pay off the lawsuits than address the defect in the car.

It's not about whether you can please all the people all the time, it's about whether you try.


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

You keep trying to equate these two.

A video output being turned off is not the same as dying in a car fire.

The engineering considerations are completely different. What an engineer might accept as an inconvenience to a customer they should never accept in a life and death situation.

You do a disservice to your argument by going so over the top.


----------



## rlnoonan (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm one of the people that uses the SD output on both of my receivers to send to and older TV elsewhere in the house. I was pretty upset by the message and current solution, but I'll just byte the bullet and get the converter. It wouldn't be the first time I've adapted my setup to D* (and I'm sure it won't be the last).

I do wish that D* would have made the message time shorter. 20 seconds is very annoying. I get why they want it there, but why can't they have an option in setup where we can shorten it or turn it off? That would mean that the user has definitely seen the message and understands, but doesn't want to see the message anymore. Seems like a solution that would work for everyone.

As for the new HD GUI, I really like the look of it. The old GUI looked pretty cheezy for 2012. I have HR20s and it doesn't seem much faster.


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Carl Spock said:


> When I bought a Honda Element in 2004, it had a sunroof. Looking at a new one in 2011, I noticed the sunroof had been removed in favor of better roll-over protection.





bobcamp1 said:


> Yeah, but nobody removed the sunroof on your car in the middle of the night!


But how would anybody ever know if a *sun*roof was removed in the middle of the night?

Got you there, Mr. Smarty Pants. 

That's what you get for trying to argue logic with Carl Spock!

j/k


----------



## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Carl Spock said:


> But how would anybody ever know if a *sun*roof was removed in the middle of the night?
> 
> Got you there, Mr. Smarty Pants.
> 
> ...


Well, what if they turned your sunroof into a moonroof instead? :grin:


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> It's not about whether you can please all the people all the time, it's about whether you try.


They not only tried to please people they did please people, we got speed out of our boxes.


----------



## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> So, the question here is whether DirecTv even tried to avoid the potential damage ... and I see no evidence of this. All I've seen was a pre-emptive viral PR campaign to try to contain damages and some hasty kludges.


If a company spends the time to implement a kludge, that means they are at least aware of the issue. They probably did at least investigate the correct fix. Very few companies removes a feature from an existing product without some thought behind it, even if the feature is unsupported.

If you wouldn't even accept free boxes from D* to address the issue, then there is not much more I can say. Perhaps you should look into another provider. FIOS doesn't have this issue, and Dish touts this feature all the time.


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> Well, what if they turned your sunroof into a moonroof instead? :grin:


Well...well...well...

#time for a snappy come-back

_Oh, yeah?_


----------



## billt1111 (Aug 16, 2006)

Has anyone noticed a deepening of blacks on regular programming with the new UI, particularly on the HR24? Both my wife and I noticed that the video quality of many, if not most, programs have improved for the better. Is it just our group-think imagination?


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

billt1111 said:


> Has anyone noticed a deepening of blacks on regular programming with the new UI, particularly on the HR24? Both my wife and I noticed that the video quality of many, if not most, programs have improved for the better. Is it just our group-think imagination?


Optical Illusion due to the darker UI. If it were a specific channel or show it's possible the broadcaster changed some settings but if you think it's universal it's just you two.

Chances are it's because it doesn't "light up" the room as much as the older UI which was brighter overall due to colors.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

billt1111 said:


> Has anyone noticed a deepening of blacks on regular programming with the new UI, particularly on the HR24? Both my wife and I noticed that the video quality of many, if not most, programs have improved for the better. Is it just our group-think imagination?


My theory is it just seems like the quality has gotten better. Our eyes are so used to seeing the really harsh, bright, blue and they adjust accordingly and now that the UI isn't so "in your face" our eyes can relax.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> You keep trying to equate these two.
> 
> A video output being turned off is not the same as dying in a car fire.
> 
> ...


So let me see. Are you saying Abe wasn't talking about car defects, that his quote was actually intended to address the elimination of DVR features?


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> If a company spends the time to implement a kludge, that means they are at least aware of the issue. They probably did at least investigate the correct fix. Very few companies removes a feature from an existing product without some thought behind it, even if the feature is unsupported.


Yes, I'm sure they thought about it ... and said screw it, it's not worth our effort to make the DVR work right. That doesn't make the kludge acceptable. 10 years ago, perhaps when cramming a UI in to these boxes was a small miracle, but not in this day and age.



bobcamp1 said:


> If you wouldn't even accept free boxes from D* to address the issue, then there is not much more I can say. Perhaps you should look into another provider. FIOS doesn't have this issue, and Dish touts this feature all the time.


Don't worry. I can take care of myself. That doesn't change my interest in seeing this issue addressed and not brushed under the rug.


----------



## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> Yes, I'm sure they thought about it ... and said screw it, it's not worth our effort to make the DVR work right. That doesn't make the kludge acceptable. 10 years ago, perhaps when cramming a UI in to these boxes was a small miracle, but not in this day and age.
> 
> Don't worry. I can take care of myself. That doesn't change my interest in seeing this issue addressed and not brushed under the rug.


It was addressed and a resolution was put in. That resolution was the banner and the option to press exit to change the resolution. Just because you're not happy with the resolution doesn't change the fact that it wasn't addressed.

So at this point all of the information is out there and now you just get to make a choice of what you are going to do. If you're expecting DIRECTV to change it's resolution then prepare to continue to be disappointed.


----------



## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

This thread is like beating a dead DVR!


----------



## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

JonW said:


> So let me see. Are you saying Abe wasn't talking about car defects, that his quote was actually intended to address the elimination of DVR features?


I think we can all agree Lincoln should have stayed away from anything called Ford.


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

allenn said:


> This thread is like beating a dead DVR!


Except it's not dead. The problem still exists. Their current "solution" doesn't solve anything. And DirecTv can still fix it in the future.

Someone with authority just has to recognize that it's an ongoing problem and authorize the s/w engineers to fix it.

For that to happen, customers effected by the problem need to keep reporting it and not get scared off by other customers who seem taken aback that someone might take issue with a DirecTv decision to remove a feature they were using ... *gasp*


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> I think we can all agree Lincoln should have stayed away from anything called Ford.


:lol:


----------



## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> They not only tried to please people they did please people, we got speed out of our boxes.


And nobody is asking you to give that up.


----------



## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

JonW said:


> It's not about whether you can please all the people all the time, it's about whether you try.


Reminds me of an old story...



> An old man, a boy & a donkey were going to town. The boy rode on the donkey & the old man walked. As they went along they passed some people who remarked it was a shame the old man was walking & the boy was riding. The man & boy thought maybe the critics were right, so they changed positions.
> 
> Later, they passed some people that remarked, "What a shame, he makes that little boy walk." They then decided they both would walk! Soon they passed some more people who thought they were stupid to walk when they had a decent donkey to ride. So, they both rode the donkey.
> 
> ...


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> Except it's not dead. The problem still exists. Their current "solution" doesn't solve anything. And DirecTv can still fix it in the future.


What you don't seem to get is that they did this on purpose. That means they've chosen not to "fix it in the future". There's no fix, it was done intentionally. The sooner you come to grips with that the sooner your blood pressure can go back down.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> And nobody is asking you to give that up.


Yes, YOU are. By asking for things to go back to the way they were so you can use your SD outputs at the same time as using HD outputs you're asking for them to sacrifice speed plain and simple.


----------



## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

JonW said:


> Except it's not dead. The problem still exists. Their current "solution" doesn't solve anything. And DirecTv can still fix it in the future.
> 
> Someone with authority just has to recognize that it's an ongoing problem and authorize the s/w engineers to fix it.
> 
> For that to happen, customers effected by the problem need to keep reporting it and not get scared off by other customers who seem taken aback that someone might take issue with a DirecTv decision to remove a feature they were using ... *gasp*


I rather feel this thread has become a "beat a dead horse" thread also. I am one of those who has posted that this is pretty much a closed subject as far as DIRECTV is concerned - it was a conscious business decision and customer feedback so far has been within predicted, and acceptable, levels.

But then I think back a few short years ago to the dual live buffer issues. DIRECTV did absolutely state that DLB was not going to happen in the HR series. But eventually it did (or at least a close derivative of it). So that clearly shows that decisions can be changed.

There is however a pretty important difference between that example and this issue. The lack of DLB response was apparently not within "acceptable levels" (a presumption on my part).

As a customer who is personally not happy with the push and hold exit solution (because of sling use), I would like to see something more. But I don't expect to, and it is very obvious I won't. As a result, it is time (past time) to accept what is now the way these systems work, and move on in my own way. I have choices - I can buy a converter, I can stop using sling, I can leave DIRECTV (don't plan to), lots of choices. But to continue to complain is not a choice that will result in anything and will only be a waste of my time and energy. And thus, we have returned to "dead horse" status here.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

:beatdeadhorse:

I got the new HD GUI last night. I knew this issue was coming from this post, but didn't appreciate the 20 second banner until last night. Of course Santa brought me a replacement HD tv, so now I guess it is time to move that old faithful 32" Sony flat screen CRT. Damn thing weighs about 100 lbs.


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## hdthebest (Sep 10, 2007)

trh said:


> :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> I got the new HD GUI last night. I knew this issue was coming from this post, but didn't appreciate the 20 second banner until last night. Of course Santa brought me a replacement HD tv, so now I guess it is time to move that old faithful 32" Sony flat screen CRT. Damn thing weighs about 100 lbs.


126 lbs actually I moved mine last weekend.LOL


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> They not only tried to please people they did please people, we got speed out of our boxes.


What you mean we, Kimosabe?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, YOU are. By asking for things to go back to the way they were so you can use your SD outputs at the same time as using HD outputs you're asking for them to sacrifice speed plain and simple.


I don't believe for one second there's not a way to fix the issue and retain whatever speed increases the HD GUI brought


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I don't believe for one second there's not a way to fix the issue and retain whatever speed increases the HD GUI brought


Then I guess you're smarter than anyone at DirecTV... Or would you like to buy some swamp land in Florida?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Although you're probably right, it has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with priorities.

Are you trying to tell me that nobody else has an HDGUI that can be sent over composite?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Are you trying to tell me that nobody else has an HDGUI that can be sent over composite?


A composite output is SD only, so yeah no HD could go out over composite. Also, if there is someone who has a GUI that can be SD and HD at the same time over 2 separate outputs doesn't mean that the chips in the H2X's and HR2X's are capable of doing so without a speed decrease.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I didn't say the end result had to be HD (might want to re-read the previous post or reflect back on the intelligence comment).

If the chips are taxed, then perhaps they should relieve the strain some other way (pandora, youtube, etc., etc.). What about the HR34? That's a brand new box design. The chipset in it, can't handle it either? It's either not true, or very poor planning/design. Take your pick


And even if all of that is true, which I doubt, they could still give customers the option to choose which GUI they want (as some other providers do), thereby satisfying everyone.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I didn't say the end result had to be HD (might want to re-read the previous post or reflect back on the intelligence comment).


You said exactly what I quoted "HDGUI sent over composite". If it's sent over composite it can't be HD, it would have to be SD.



spartanstew said:


> If the chips are taxed, then perhaps they should relieve the strain some other way (pandora, youtube, etc., etc.). What about the HR34? That's a brand new box design. The chipset in it, can't handle it either? It's either not true, or very poor planning/design. Take your pick


How is removing a YouTube search going to help with graphics generation speed? Especially when YouTube isn't even in use when the guide is being generated.

The HR34 *MAY* be capable, no one has said for sure, but you know how DirecTV likes to keep everything the same. For all we know the HR24 is capable too (they were fast with the old GUI) but the HR21's aren't, etc.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> You said exactly what I quoted "HDGUI sent over composite". If it's sent over composite it can't be HD, it would have to be SD.


But D* can't send it at all (and you know that). Guess what, I can send an HD signal via composite and I do it all the time. The end result is SD, but the signal travels perfectly fine. For some reason, the HDGUI doesn't have that capability. You have to start the source as SD. And you know that's exactly what I'm talking about, but you have placed yourself in a position of the great defender on this and now result to trying to catch people in symantic arguments.



RunnerFL said:


> How is removing a YouTube search going to help with graphics generation speed? Especially when YouTube isn't even in use when the guide is being generated.


Don't know, but I'm sure there's a solution, those were merely examples of things that they might consider removing (or stopping development of), if the chipsets are that weak.



RunnerFL said:


> The HR34 *MAY* be capable, no one has said for sure, but you know how DirecTV likes to keep everything the same. For all we know the HR24 is capable too but the HR21's aren't, etc.


Yes, for all we know, they're all capable of it.

It's not a hard concept. This issue could be fixed in probably several different ways if D* chose to. But they choose NOT to. For whatever reason. It's not a matter of bad chip sets, intelligence, speed, or anything else. And I'm sure you know that, but just like D* makes choices, you choose to be the all out defender on this issue.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> But D* can't send it at all (and you know that). Guess what, I can send an HD signal via composite and I do it all the time. The end result is SD, but the signal travels perfectly fine. For some reason, the HDGUI doesn't have that capability. You have to start the source as SD. And you know that's exactly what I'm talking about, but you have placed yourself in a position of the great defender on this and now result to trying to catch people in symantic arguments.


Point is you can't put an HD signal through composite, it must be converted to SD first. And I'm not the "great defender" of anything, keep your personal attacks out of this.



spartanstew said:


> Don't know, but I'm sure there's a solution, those were merely examples of things that they might consider removing (or stopping development of), if the chipsets are that weak.


They weren't very good examples....



spartanstew said:


> It's not a hard concept. This issue could be fixed in probably several different ways if D* chose to. But they choose NOT to. For whatever reason. It's not a matter of bad chip sets, intelligence, speed, or anything else. And I'm sure you know that, but just like D* makes choices, you choose to be the all out defender on this issue.


As it's been said many times DirecTV put some thought into this and did their best to make it work but couldn't. This information came from a VERY reliable source, as you know. You just choose to dwell on it because you now have to fork out more money, sorry but that's the facts.

And again, not a defender and keep your personal attacks out of the thread.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> Point is you can't put an HD signal through composite, it must be converted to SD first.


Hmm, then how come I can select HD resolution (and only HD resolution) on my DVR for a program and it gets sent over composite just fine? But the same can't be done with the GUI?

So, no, it doesn't have to be converted to SD first by the box (you really weren't aware of this? Aren't you an AllStar?).



RunnerFL said:


> As it's been said many times DirecTV put some thought into this and did their best to make it work but couldn't. This information came from a VERY reliable source, as you know. You just choose to dwell on it because you now have to fork out more money, sorry but that's the facts.
> 
> And again, not a defender and keep your personal attacks out of the thread.


Yes, you are the defender of this issue. Not a personal attack, just a simple observation. You fear any changes will ruin the speed which you hold so dear for some reason.

And it doesn't matter how many times it's been said, nor by whom. They could have done better. They still could do better. They just choose not to. And while I don't like wasting money, it's not about the money, it's about the fact that it's F'd and it's kludgy for many, many users. And D* doesn't care. They simply don't care about this issue. That bothers me.

Now, as you've done with every other member in this thread, I'll let you get the last word with me too, so you don't ruin your streak as GUI defender. You can continue in your little bubble believing that things are impossible, when logic would dictate that they're not. I'm done, take care.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Hmm, then how come I can select HD resolution (and only HD resolution) on my DVR for a program and it gets sent over composite just fine? But the same can't be done with the GUI?


Not without sacrificing speed... You don't get that do you?



spartanstew said:


> So, no, it doesn't have to be converted to SD first by the box (you really weren't aware of this? Aren't you an AllStar?).


Yeah, it does, you just clearly don't understand. And again with the personal attacks?



spartanstew said:


> Yes, you are the defender of this issue. Not a personal attack, just a simple observation. You fear any changes will ruin the speed which you hold so dear for some reason.


Nope, not a defender. Yep, personal attack. Yep, don't want to lose the speed we just gained.



spartanstew said:


> And it doesn't matter how many times it's been said, nor by whom. They could have done better. They still could do better. They just choose not to. And while I don't like wasting money, it's not about the money, it's about the fact that it's F'd and it's kludgy for many, many users. And D* doesn't care. They simply don't care about this issue. That bothers me.


Kludgy to you may not be kludgy to others. I think trying to run multiple tv's off of one receiver is kludgy.



spartanstew said:


> Now, as you've done with every other member in this thread, I'll let you get the last word with me too, so you don't ruin your streak as GUI defender. You can continue in your little bubble believing that things are impossible, when logic would dictate that they're not. I'm done, take care.


End the personal attacks and just put me on your ignore list if you don't like what I say.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

spartanstew, the dvr is downcoverting any video higher than 480 resolution down to 480 before it sends it out the composite output. composite video will not carry HD, never has...the guide is an overlay, it doesnt work anything like outputting the video. Hence I suspect the reason they got rid of the downconverting guide in favor of speed to redraw the overlay due to the overwhelming complaints over the last several years of how slow everything was. It is quite possible that the chips used in the HR2x series are incapable of providing the speeds they are trying for and be able to keep both overlays. It definitely time to move on from this tiresome discussion, it achieves absolutely nothing.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> And it doesn't matter how many times it's been said, nor by whom. They could have done better. They still could do better. They just choose not to. And while I don't like wasting money, it's not about the money, it's about the fact that it's F'd and it's kludgy for many, many users. And D* doesn't care. They simply don't care about this issue. That bothers me.


I agree.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

I would be more receptive to the inconvenience of using the new GUI if I was seeing the speed that some people are seeing. It scrolls lightning fast but all of the other button pushes take as long as ever.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> spartanstew, the dvr is downcoverting any video higher than 480 resolution down to 480 before it sends it out the composite output.


I realize that. My point, which obviously I didn't make clear, was that the user doesn't have to manually tell it to do so, like they do with the GUI. With all other programming, it's set it (HD output) and forget it (regardless of the connection).

And like others have noted, other than going into the guide or list and holding down the down (or up) arrow, so that I can scroll really fast (which I've done exactly once just so I could see it), I've seen no speed increases with the HD-GUI. Of course, I spend less than .5% of my time in the list or guide, as I prefer to use my DVR to watch shows, so maybe that's why. To me, hanging out in the menu's just to go fast is a bit like watching NASCAR - boring and a waste of time.

PS. The DLB discussion was dead at one point too, remember?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Well you actually stated it doesnt have to be converted to SD first by the box before its sent out via composite in post #167. It is. Since you conveniently didnt quote the important part of post: The guide is an overlay, it is entirely different than the video being output, and hence a completely different animal entirely. It is rendered, and would have to be rendered in both HD and SD resolutions, which is how it was and causing terrible menu performance, hence the change.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

CCarncross said:


> Well you actually stated it doesnt have to be converted to SD first by the box before its sent out via composite in post #167. It is. Since you conveniently didnt quote the important part of post: The guide is an overlay, it is entirely different than the video being output, and hence a completely different animal entirely. It is rendered, and would have to be rendered in both HD and SD resolutions, which is how it was and causing terrible menu performance, hence the change.


Again, obviously I didn't make myself clear, but not sure why you think that's convenient.

Every other piece of equipment I own can send a signal (HD) via HDMI and Composite - my Blu Ray player, my WDTV, etc. - at the same time. Without me (or any user) needing to change any settings or do something *manually*. In other words, the USER doesn't have to do anything or take any action to get the box to convert it - it's AUTOMATIC.

I don't care if it's an overlay on the HD picture or if it's embedded in the HD picture or how it's done. Other providers can do it (most of them), but D* can't - for whatever reason. The chipset excuse seems to be used quite a bit, but I have no idea if that's the reason or not - and I don't think you do either.

It might just be that D* doesn't want people using multiple outputs anymore. They'd rather have subscribers get additional boxes and pay additional lease fees.

I still don't understand (nor do you, or anyone else), why they don't just give the user the option of which GUI they want. Pick HD and it's just like it is now. Pick SD and it's just like it was before. Everyone wins. Wait, let me guess, it's the chipset that won't allow that, right?


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## moghedien (Dec 3, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> I don't care if it's an overlay on the HD picture or if it's embedded in the HD picture or how it's done. Other providers can do it (most of them), but D* can't - for whatever reason. The chipset excuse seems to be used quite a bit, but I have no idea if that's the reason or not - and I don't think you do either.


This might be related to the overlay issue, but when I recorded a show to my DVD recorder with the digital closed captions like I did before the HDGUI, the captions did not get passed thru the composite cable. Like the GUI, the digital captions are generated by the receiver itself, so there might be something to that theory.

BTW, have you relayed your concerns to Directv?


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> .....It might just be that D* doesn't want people using multiple outputs anymore. They'd rather have subscribers get additional boxes and pay additional lease fees.......


So you reached the same conclusion which I posted many threads ago; good for you! It is all about the $$s. D* wants you on MRV their way which is SWM, DECA, and possibly CCK. I suggest you replace all your SD TV's with HDs, because SD along with component and composite video, the stereo audio ports will be eliminated in a similar fashion as the RF output, OTA port, ethernet pass-through, and TOSLINK port. It's only money, no problem in this booming economy.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

The reason is simple. Making it so that multiple resolutions were outputted took resources that weren't worth the effort. It sacrificed more than the gain would have been.

DIRECTV engineers are smart enough to know that converters exist out there so saying this is a cash grab is either ignorant or just being said to make oneself feel better about being a victim of some sort.

So if you really think it's a cash grab then damn the man and get a converter which the man won't see a penny from!


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Shades228 said:


> So if you really think it's a cash grab then damn the man and get a converter which the man won't see a penny from!


 What happens to the RF converter when the composite video and audio ports are removed from the future D* HD-DVRs? Seems to me it is time to make the leap to HD. This is not unlike the switchover from the analog to digital tuner.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Shades228 said:


> The reason is simple. Making it so that multiple resolutions were outputted took resources that weren't worth the effort. It sacrificed more than the gain would have been.
> 
> DIRECTV engineers are smart enough to know that converters exist out there so saying this is a cash grab is either ignorant or just being said to make oneself feel better about being a victim of some sort.
> 
> So if you really think it's a cash grab then damn the man and get a converter which the man won't see a penny from!


Yes, I'm sure they knew converters exist, but they also know many people don't know they exist and many others will just opt for another box. And I don't know if that is the reason, but it seems just as likely as anything else.


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## Maruuk (Dec 5, 2007)

No one has yet been able to explain why my remote SD "Rabbit" transmitter hooked into the analog outs of my HR24-500--sent to an HDTV with analog inputs--is perfectly capable of showing the downconverted HDUI just fine for a while, then the %^&%$#@ warning blocker comes on. In other words, it can do the job just fine as is (I have 480i selected), but D* doesn't seem to know that and needs to tell me it can't by blocking my screen. And of course holding "EXIT" does nothing. Brilliant.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> What you don't seem to get is that they did this on purpose. That means they've chosen not to "fix it in the future". There's no fix, it was done intentionally. The sooner you come to grips with that the sooner your blood pressure can go back down.


What the heck are you talking about?

Of course there's a fix. There are numerous ways to address and/or fix what they've gone and broke.

The only thing standing in the way of them implementing is for someone to authorize it.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> The reason is simple. Making it so that multiple resolutions were outputted took resources that weren't worth the effort. It sacrificed more than the gain would have been.


A more accurate depiction would be to say they were under severe time constraints to release the HD UI which was unacceptably slow on the current h/w.

Now that they've released it, they can go back and come up with a better solution.

The HR20 has HDMI, Component, S-Video, Composite, and RF video outputs. Customers have always been free to use one or even all outputs at the same time. In fact, the capability is still there. They haven't disallowed anything. They just broke the UI.

And they need to fix it.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Yes, YOU are. By asking for things to go back to the way they were so you can use your SD outputs at the same time as using HD outputs you're asking for them to sacrifice speed plain and simple.


In this place we call reality, I've only asked for an option for it to work like it used to. An option you never need to turn on, if you want to be able to page through your guide faster.

Of course there are other ways they could address the problem, like for instance they could optimize their UI so it doesn't run slow like molasses and then they wouldn't have to rely on a kludge to get acceptable performance.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> A more accurate depiction would be to say they were under severe time constraints to release the HD UI which was unacceptably slow on the current h/w.
> 
> Now that they've released it, they can go back and come up with a better solution.
> 
> ...


Please post your facts to support this. I would like to see the deadline date published somewhere and I would like to see where they stated that you could do all of this in a product document.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

joed32 said:


> I would be more receptive to the inconvenience of using the new GUI if I was seeing the speed that some people are seeing. It scrolls lightning fast but all of the other button pushes take as long as ever.


Exactly! Seems I wait just as long when I press List or Guide. No speed increase that I can detect. I never felt like the scrolling was slow, once the list finally came up.

The HD guide with the exception of some pretty program pictures looks pretty much the same as the SD version. They moved some stuff around and changed the color scheme, otherwise pretty much the same. Not seeing the benefit of it being HD.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

allenn said:


> So you reached the same conclusion which I posted many threads ago; good for you! It is all about the $$s. D* wants you on MRV their way which is SWM, DECA, and possibly CCK. I suggest you replace all your SD TV's with HDs, because SD along with component and composite video, the stereo audio ports will be eliminated in a similar fashion as the RF output, OTA port, ethernet pass-through, and TOSLINK port. It's only money, no problem in this booming economy.


I'm feeding the SD to a 32" HDTV in the bedroom and a 17" HDTV in the kitchen. On those size TVs I don't have to have HD. The ability to use the SD output for me is that I can start watching live TV in one room, pause and/or rewind live tv, then go to another room and continue watching. Can't do that with separate boxes. If you could I would just get separate boxes and gladly pay Directv more money.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> Please post your facts to support this. I would like to see the deadline date published somewhere and I would like to see where they stated that you could do all of this in a product document.


Sorry, that's "inside" information from a well placed source.

Oh, no, wait a sec. Here it is:

Filed in February of 2011 as part of their annual report:

http://investor.directv.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1047469-11-1443



> Launch New User Interface to Support Multi-Screen Applications and Services. Given the importance of the User Interface, or UI, and guide to our customers to provide a friendly and fun way to navigate through hundreds of channels, *in 2011 we will launch a new HD UI which will be significantly faster than our current UI and will be displayed in crisp, easy-to-read HD format using more graphical poster art*. In addition, this UI will incorporate our industry-leading Smart Search capabilities as well as improved discovery and personalization features. We are also developing applications for mobile devices and tablets so that our customers will enjoy many DIRECTV features and functionalities both inside and outside of the home.





Shades228 said:


> ...I would like to see where they stated that you could do all of this in a product document.


Look at the back of your DVR for the "product documentation" most of us refer to when hooking up A/V equipment.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

nowandthen said:


> The HD guide with the exception of some pretty program pictures looks pretty much the same as the SD version. They moved some stuff around and changed the color scheme, otherwise pretty much the same. Not seeing the benefit of it being HD.


They've just got the box doing too many things. It's quite zippy if you remove your eSATA, pull the Satellite cables, pull off your OTA, pull off your LAN cable, etc.

Optimizing software is hard work, and the temptation is to just throw more hardware at a problem these days; but it's not very practical when they won't even guarantee us an HR24, and they have nothing in place to let us keep our recordings.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> Sorry, that's "inside" information from a well placed source.
> 
> Oh, no, wait a sec. Here it is:
> 
> ...


EoY 2011 doesn't mean that it had to happen it also doesn't mean that it had to go national. How many times has a date been moved? They've announced launch dates as required and then moved them for whatever reason.

So again I don't see anything that's a hard date stating it HAD to be done by this time.

The back of my HD DVR does not have a product document. So again please provide me a product document that states that you can use all of the outputs on a receiver at the same time and have the exact same functionality across them.

I'll save you some time because none of these items exist. What you're doing is taking pieces of information and then choosing to call them a fact to meet your interest.

So again if you think that something is going to change regarding this implimentation then you should just be prepared to be disappointed.

People come here for information so if you post something as a fact you better have something to back it up especially when it's known to be untrue already.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

nowandthen said:


> I'm feeding the SD to a 32" HDTV in the bedroom and a 17" HDTV in the kitchen. On those size TVs I don't have to have HD. The ability to use the SD output for me is that I can start watching live TV in one room, pause and/or rewind live tv, then go to another room and continue watching. Can't do that with separate boxes. If you could I would just get separate boxes and gladly pay Directv more money.


You can do that with MRV.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

sigma1914 said:


> You can do that with MRV.


To be clear: If I'm watching live TV in one room, pause it and/or rewind it, so now I'm watching delayed live TV, not recordings. I can then go to another TV and continue watching that delayed live TV program using MRV?

If so, Directv has just sold (rented) me another receiver (or two).


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

nowandthen said:


> To be clear: If I'm watching live TV in one room, pause it and/or rewind it, so now I'm watching delayed live TV, not recordings. I can then go to another TV and continue watching that delayed live TV program using MRV?
> 
> If so, Directv has just sold (rented) me another receiver (or two).


No. Only an RVU client (Samsung HDTV) can do that. With an HD DVR/Receiver you would need to press RECORD so that your original DVR was recording the show, then you could select that recording from remote DVR/Receiver and begin playback where you left off.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

sigma1914 said:


> You can do that with MRV.


It was suggested to him that he get an SD receiver for the second TV to avoid having to switch to 480p and an SD receiver can't do MRV.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228, if that's what you're going to come back with then don't even bother replying to my posts in the future. You asked. You were answered. If you don't like the responses, go waste somebody else's time.

There simply isn't a more firm commitment for a corporation then a promise to shareholders. If they miss their targets, then they're risking taking a hit to their share price. 

Everyone in the world who's ever wired up their own A/V equipment knows what to do when a piece of equipment has multiple outputs. You wire up your equipment to your choice - and fact is simultaneous output through all video outputs still works. It just works poorly. So, you're argument doesn't even make sense.


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## sfpegasus (Feb 27, 2008)

Throughout this thread, the ongoing message has been that DirecTv was looking for speed and I get that message.

I'm just not seeing it. Yes the guide scrolls faster. But that's about it. There's enough delay bringing the guide up you think it's not responding. They've made everything else so "remote intensive" it takes too long to get where you want to go. The icons for the movies, while a nice touch, are barely readable on a 50"plasma. Color choices don't seem to be consistant with readability.

I spent the whole day yesterday playing with the new interface, and I just don't see where this is an improvement of where we were. It was cool for a week but now looking back, I'm wondering "what were they thinking?"

Add on the pathetic 20 second graphic displaying on the sd units on the sd ports to tell you the obvious and it quickly becomes a more annoying system than the previous.


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## westview (Dec 27, 2011)

I am confused by all of this. If I don't use the guide on my other tv will everything work the same as always?


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

One thing I've picked up from these many posts that DirecTV programmers haven't...shorten the time for the annoying SD message! Better yet, press any key and it disappears. This simple action would go a long way toward making users happier. And it shouldn't cost any programming effort, just changing one little value for the time.

How about it DirecTV? Please!

Dave


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## Maruuk (Dec 5, 2007)

The turning NATIVE off>>then toggling FORMAT to 480p worked for me. It's a hassle but you can finally beat the obno warning blocker.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> Shades228, if that's what you're going to come back with then don't even bother replying to my posts in the future. You asked. You were answered. If you don't like the responses, go waste somebody else's time.
> 
> There simply isn't a more firm commitment for a corporation then a promise to shareholders. If they miss their targets, then they're risking taking a hit to their share price.
> 
> Everyone in the world who's ever wired up their own A/V equipment knows what to do when a piece of equipment has multiple outputs. You wire up your equipment to your choice - and fact is simultaneous output through all video outputs still works. It just works poorly. So, you're argument doesn't even make sense.


Unless the announcement to their shareholders has a monetary impact it won't impact share prices at all. The HDUI did not increase DIRECTV's stock price nor would any equipment modification unless it was an extreme situation ie losing DVR service due to patent issues. So missing a announcement of this nature wouldn't have any impact what so ever on DIRECTV's bottom line.

There's no argument I simply want you to provide a document where it states that you are allowed to use all outputs at the same time from DIRECTV. For example my tires on my car can hold up at 160 however they're only rated for 130. So just because something can doesn't mean it was designed to be supported. If I have an unexpected result at speeds higher than 130 than the manufacturer of the tire company has nothing to do with it. I can access the information on my tires and it states what it supports, by doing so it tells me what isn't supported.

So what I'm asking you for is a document that was created by DIRECTV that states you can do what you say you should and not "just because it can".



drded said:


> One thing I've picked up from these many posts that DirecTV programmers haven't...shorten the time for the annoying SD message! Better yet, press any key and it disappears. This simple action would go a long way toward making users happier. And it shouldn't cost any programming effort, just changing one little value for the time.
> 
> How about it DirecTV? Please!
> 
> Dave


The length of the message is there so that people can react to it and fix it. If it was too short it would just pop up and then by the time someone got their remote and held down exit it would be gone. Holding down exit while the OSD is not up won't change the resolution. Don't expect it to get any shorter as 20 seconds really isn't a long time when you want to do something. I can undersand when you're watching something it can be but it's not there to be ignored.


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> The length of the message is there so that people can react to it and fix it. If it was too short it would just pop up and then by the time someone got their remote and held down exit it would be gone...I can undersand when you're watching something it can be but it's not there to be ignored.


This concept might make sense if it happened the first time you turned the DVR on for the day. But, every time you change the channel, press guide, or whatever... the annoying message once again covers the screen. Don't the people in charge get it, there is nothing to fix. We want to use that output for whatever we are using it for. We don't want to change resolution. The programmers should put themselves in the users shoes instead of trying to defend this function which is annoying many users.

As an earlier poster said, DirecTV had a function which many of us came to rely on. They broke it. That is not progress in my mind!

Dave


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> So what I'm asking you for is a document that was created by DIRECTV that states you can do what you say you should and not "just because it can".


Like I've already told you many times, the box has always supported simultaneous output and still supports it. If there were limitations on how it works, that's what should have been documented - but there was no need, because there weren't any.

The word spread out very quickly from pre-release that the HR20-700 supported simultaneous output because customers like me asked about it and didn't like having to flip modes on the HR10.

The user's manual (something few customers even bother to do more than glance at) is irrelevant.

As for the shareholder statement, I suppose next time I'll just stick to saying "I have confidential information from a highly placed source" rather than actually provide you evidence; because for some reason you seem to think statements like that are quite satisfactory while dismissing a documented Corporate mandate as inconsequential.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

drded said:


> This concept might make sense if it happened the first time you turned the DVR on for the day.


Good user interfaces these days have an option to turn off warning messages and tips once issued.

Heck, someone using the S-Video output to archive shows to a DVD recorder, may very well welcome the lack of UI and other messages.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Shades228 said:


> Unless the announcement to their shareholders has a monetary impact it won't impact share prices at all. The HDUI did not increase DIRECTV's stock price nor would any equipment modification unless it was an extreme situation ie losing DVR service due to patent issues. So missing a announcement of this nature wouldn't have any impact what so ever on DIRECTV's bottom line.


An announcement of this sort by the CEO pretty much means it has to be done. And done by the date so announced. So, the rollout was a bit rushed, and a few things were left untidied, for me the only big one was the "Progress" bar's background. Too big, too opaque. YMMV on details. (I am HD only, and HDMI only, but of course many- perhaps most- are not.)


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

JonW said:


> ......The user's manual (something few customers even bother to do more than glance at) is irrelevant.......


I totally agree. D* user's manual is one size fits all. The manuals are not for a specific model. Recently, I purchased two new HR24-100's; and the manuals show the typical back panel for a D*'s HR DVRs. There is a disclaimer which states the diagram may be different for your particular model. The manual does not have much in the way of tech info. I have gotten most of my tech specs from DBSTALK or one of the D* resellers websites. I have user manuals dating back to 1994, and none of them stipulate what or when ports are active. There is nothing about HD or SD ports. Have a nice day!


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> The user's manual (something few customers even bother to do more than glance at) is irrelevant.


Actually, it's quite relevant if you're trying to get out of a service. You have that catch-all in the Customer Agreement you (supposedly) signed that says D* can change the service and hardware and features anytime they want and you can't even complain about it. Which of course begs the question, exactly what services and equipment were promised? And to prove that you end up looking at things that were written down, like the manuals or web pages.

If D* stopped offering DVR service altogether, and you still had an ETF, that's grounds to sue them to recover the ETF regardless of what the customer agreement says. D* is on shaky legal ground canceling a major feature like that and charge you an ETF. But this simultaneous output feature was never even written down. It wasn't promised. It's a minor feature. So the ETF most likely applies.

If you don't have an ETF, then cancel D* and be done with it. It doesn't look like it's getting fixed anytime soon.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

drded said:


> One thing I've picked up from these many posts that DirecTV programmers haven't...shorten the time for the annoying SD message! Better yet, press any key and it disappears. This simple action would go a long way toward making users happier. And it shouldn't cost any programming effort, just changing one little value for the time.
> 
> How about it DirecTV? Please!
> 
> Dave


The press any key idea doesn't work, the remote still responds to the receiver for the HD side. If you see the message, then press guide, the guide would have to come up on the HD side.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Actually, it's quite relevant if you're trying to get out of a service.


Well, like I said early on, my arguments are not legal in nature nor am I looking for any sort of a handout. If I felt like they ruined the DVR for me with these changes and wanted something out of them in terms of compensation, I suspect whining to retentions would get something done about it.

I just think they should find a way to fix it, and until they do, those of us who relied on the feature have a legit gripe that shouldn't be swept under the rug due to fear that any solution would result in slowing down the DVR.

The slowness of the DVR is an ongoing problem that DirecTv desperately needs to address before piling even more new features in to the box. Moving forward, every provider (this isn't just a problem with DirecTv) should have a program in place that permits users to upgrade to newer/faster hardware *AND* keep their recordings.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

JonW said:


> Like I've already told you many times, the box has always supported simultaneous output and still supports it. If there were limitations on how it works, that's what should have been documented - but there was no need, because there weren't any.
> 
> The word spread out very quickly from pre-release that the HR20-700 supported simultaneous output because customers like me asked about it and didn't like having to flip modes on the HR10.
> 
> ...


The manual is only irrelevant to you because it doesn't state that you can do that. If there was a product brochure, manual, press release you would be flaunting it all over to backup your argument.



Laxguy said:


> An announcement of this sort by the CEO pretty much means it has to be done. And done by the date so announced. So, the rollout was a bit rushed, and a few things were left untidied, for me the only big one was the "Progress" bar's background. Too big, too opaque. YMMV on details. (I am HD only, and HDMI only, but of course many- perhaps most- are not.)


Apparently Tom Rogers didn't get the memo on that. Every investor meeting out there states that statements made are forward thinking and can change. Read the disclosures in any investment call and you'll see them. According to Chase Carey years ago we wouldn't have SD receivers manufactured anymore. How's that working out?

I can't speak for others but as an investor I don't look at what is said in investment meetings as much as I look at the results of the company.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Shades228 said:


> Apparently Tom Rogers didn't get the memo on that. Every investor meeting out there states that statements made are forward thinking and can change. Read the disclosures in any investment call and you'll see them. According to Chase Carey years ago we wouldn't have SD receivers manufactured anymore. How's that working out?
> 
> I can't speak for others but as an investor I don't look at what is said in investment meetings as much as I look at the results of the company.


I'm talking customers, and an ongoing business. I'm also not talking contractual arrangements or SEC requirements.

It's important that what the Execs report over time is largely true. YMMV. 
Who knows if the stock price mightn't have dipped had they not started the rollout on time?!

I agree one statement being missed is no biggie, but no one wants a track record of that sort of thing.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

Not having seen a hardware block diagram and at the risk of ruffling some over-sensitive feathers... :eek2: not to mention :beatdeadhorse:

Going backwards, the outputs are all hardware. Simultaneous output is ~0 software overhead. The box knows how to down convert HD to SD, so the only thing left is where it injects/mixes the HDGUI in. It may simply be a choice that D* doesn't want to down convert the HD GUI because it degrades or shrinks it to be unacceptable in their view... How or why that happened is probably beyond our control and our input is not required (read: wanted!). reach:

IMHO the real issues are:
*Speed*, NOT! Many, including myself are not seeing the promised speed improvements. So stop trying to sell us on it...
*Loss of functionality.* The SD outputs usability have been seriously compromised by the ridiculously huge, 20 sec on screen warning. A compromise solution that would make me happy is to *not* display the warning if a program control button is pressed, Play, FF, skip, etc... That's likey a 5 minute code change that I think would go a long way in customer relations...
For me, I've already pissed away another $120, for 1 room, to fix another D* system "upgrade" side effect. ... however I now get HD on that setup... 

... we now return you to the blood bath already in progress...


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

Shades228 said:


> The manual is only irrelevant to you because it doesn't state that you can do that. If there was a product brochure, manual, press release you would be flaunting it all over to backup your argument.


Your mistake is thinking that I need to "prove" something to you or anyone.

A feature I used was forcibly removed.

Anything we've discussed beyond that is frankly irrelevant.


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## ejjames (Oct 3, 2006)

I need to dump a few programs to DVD for mom & dad so I can connect a 1.5TB esata drive to their HR24.

I'll be using my Panasonic E80H recorder with an S-Video connection.

Is it true that I have to select the 480i as the only resolution available?

Are the days of simultaneous HD/SD output gone?

Thanks,
EJ



'


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> A feature I used was forcibly removed.


Forcibly? Not quite... I'm pretty sure they didn't show up at your place with guns to take it away.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

ejjames said:


> Are the days of simultaneous HD/SD output gone?


No, you just don't get the GUI on the SD output when the resolution is set to an HD resolution.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Forcibly? Not quite... I'm pretty sure they didn't show up at your place with guns to take it away.


"By force" in this instance means not of my choosing, not whether firearms were involved. For most of the devices I own, I can choose whether to update it or not, and even revert to a previous release if I don't like something the latest firmware is doing.

Frankly, that's probably what I'd do if DirecTv gave me the option. There may be some new features down the line I'd regret not having, but the HD UI doesn't do much for me.

The old guide worked when I needed it. It was slow, but it's still slow coming up, and while speed scrolling is fun, I usually want to read what's on the screen. The amount of information in the guide was fine. The readability was fine. The combined play list is still just as slow, bringing up the menu is slower, and it takes more key presses to get around in the menus.

But I don't begrudge you guys who like it and find it faster all around, I just don't understand why you'd begrudge me some sort of an option for the unit to support what it used to to support.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

JonW said:


> "By force" in this instance means not of my choosing, not whether firearms were involved. For most of the devices I own, I can choose whether to update it or not, and even revert to a previous release if I don't like something the latest firmware is doing.


There's a big difference between "by force" and "not by my choice"...



JonW said:


> But I don't begrudge you guys who like it and find it faster all around, I just don't understand why you'd begrudge me some sort of an option for the unit to support what it used to to support.


You were given options, you just don't like them.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> Well, like I said early on, my arguments are not legal in nature nor am I looking for any sort of a handout. If I felt like they ruined the DVR for me with these changes and wanted something out of them in terms of compensation, I suspect whining to retentions would get something done about it.


D* only really cares abut your money. If you think they have ruined the DVR, let them know about it. If it's a big deal, cancel their service.

The vibe I'm getting from those that know is that it'll be a very long time, if ever, when that functionality gets restored.

If you're not going to cancel their service over this, then by definition it is not a big deal. Learn to live with it.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

ejjames said:


> I need to dump a few programs to DVD for mom & dad so I can connect a 1.5TB esata drive to their HR24.
> 
> I'll be using my Panasonic E80H recorder with an S-Video connection.
> 
> ...


S-Video by definition is 480i... regardless of the HR2Xs resolution settings. Unless you monitor SD while you setup your record, you may end up recording the stupid warning screen. If you don't monitor SD, you should probably switch to, at most, 480p while you're dumping...

The days of simultaneous HD/SD graphic interface are gone... video program information is still there, except SonicTap.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> No, you just don't get the GUI on the SD output when the resolution is set to an HD resolution.


But you do get the "not HD" message popping up (e.g., when pressing play to start the program), and need to tread carefully not to record it to the DVD.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> But you do get the "not HD" message popping up (e.g., when pressing play to start the program), and need to tread carefully not to record it to the DVD.


If someone is recording something to DVD they can set it up at night. Set your DVR to 480i, press record on your dvd recorder and press play on your DVR then go to bed. Tada!


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

:beatdeadhorse: Do you really think any minds are going to change on this thread? D* is in the business to make money. They look for things which will make them $$$$s. Sometimes features are removed like OTA input, RF output, and ethernet pass-through. Removal of these ports reduces the cost of manufacturing which puts more money into D* pockets. D* is going to eliminate SD, and what you are seeing is their first move in this direction. I used most of the things D* has removed. It has cost me many dollars for workarounds. Do I thing D* cares? NO! It is cost / benefit to the D* execs. My two cents!


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

bwaldron said:


> But you do get the "not HD" message popping up (e.g., when pressing play to start the program), and need to tread carefully not to record it to the DVD.


If backing up to DVD is not worth $50 to you then do what RunnerFL states.

If backing up to DVD but not having to deal with any more hassles is worth $50 to you then get a converter.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> There's a big difference between "by force" and "not by my choice"...


There are in fact many definitions of the word force, and usage of the phrase. Dunno why you're wasting your time arguing semantics.



RunnerFL said:


> You were given options, you just don't like them.


By DirecTv? Nope. Various end users have offered suggestions, but those suggestions don't even handle my situation.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> D* only really cares abut your money. If you think they have ruined the DVR, let them know about it. If it's a big deal, cancel their service.


D* cares about a lot of things, and they're perfectly free to change their mind on a subject, but they're certainly not going to do so unless people speak up. When I do cancel my subscription it won't just be this one thing, it'll be an accumulation of things. The fact they didn't address them in advance will be their loss, because after going to the time and expense to transition over to a new service, I'm not going to be very receptive to anything retentions has to suggest.



bobcamp1 said:


> The vibe I'm getting from those that know is that it'll be a very long time, if ever, when that functionality gets restored.


Of course ... and then a s/w manager walks in to the office one day and announces: "I know we agreed we wouldn't have to do this, but we're doing it." ... and voila the story changes.



bobcamp1 said:


> If you're not going to cancel their service over this, then by definition it is not a big deal. Learn to live with it.


Not everything that should be fixed/addressed has to be a "big deal". As I've said many times simultaneous output still works. It's just idiotic, an inconvenience, and a potential hazard that the UI will no longer come up.

Nobody has to "live with it" or "accept" a decision they don't like. This thread is specifically about that decision, customers having issues with the decision, and any suggestions to help those users deal with it.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

allenn said:


> Sometimes features are removed like OTA input, RF output, and ethernet pass-through.


Point of fact:

OTA and RF output still work great on my HR20. Just because DirecTv removed these features from certain models, they didn't go back and disable the feature in the firmware for all models.

The HR20 never had a second ethernet port...

In addition, if DirecTv supplied you with a DVR that lacked a critical feature you needed, you could always keep phoning their support line until someone agreed to send you the old model. Their reluctance to guarantee you will receive a specific model, however, is different issue with the company for another thread.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> If someone is recording something to DVD they can set it up at night. Set your DVR to 480i, press record on your dvd recorder and press play on your DVR then go to bed. Tada!


I understand, and do so. I thought that the person's question, and the original response, regarded the _necessity_ of setting the DVR to 480i to record.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I understand, and do so. I thought that the person's question, and the original response, regarded the _necessity_ of setting the DVR to 480i to record.


Ahh, gotcha.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Stuart Sweet said:


> DIRECTV folks have told me that among the entire subscriber base, the need to use HD and SD at the same time is fairly rare, and the desire for a faster, more legible UI is almost universal.


Stuart, I just spoke to a rep about this issue and he said that they've gotten more feedback about this message than they expected, so they're talking about doing something about it now. He said it would be around 3 months before they fix it though. It sounds like an option to disable that message. (Although I would think it would be better to have an option on whether to show the guide in HD or SD on all outputs, rather than just something for the message) I guess we shall see what happens in a few months.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

MISpat said:


> Stuart, I just spoke to a rep about this issue and he said that they've gotten more feedback about this message than they expected, so they're talking about doing something about it now. He said it would be around 3 months before they fix it though. It sounds like an option to disable that message. (Although I would think it would be better to have an option on whether to show the guide in HD or SD on all outputs, rather than just something for the message) I guess we shall see what happens in a few months.


Sorry to inform you but you got fluffed.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

MISpat said:


> Stuart, I just spoke to a rep about this issue and he said that they've gotten more feedback about this message than they expected, so they're talking about doing something about it now. He said it would be around 3 months before they fix it though.


There is no way a front line CSR has any inside knowledge about what is going on with DirecTV's software design team, including development production dates.

I wish I understood this need for people to make up a story out of whole cloth rather than to just say, "I don't know." I ran into it again and again in my stereo store. I'd have a young salesman who'd take something a manufacturer's rep would say in passing and turn it into a long narrative regarding the design of a product. _Whaaat?_

I think this is a more likely scenario. I bet this CSR has heard is multiple complaints the past few days about SD outputs and the new GUI. He talks about this with his fellow CSRs on break or over lunch. He finds out they are hearing complaints, too. By now it's a need for a software revision in his mind. So when you called, *MISpat*, this guy just wants to make you happy (there is a great human need to please people) and he comes up with this schedule for the change. Instead, what he could have said is, "I've heard a number of people complaining about this over the past few days. I'll pass yours on up the line. Let's see what happens."

That would have been truthful and accurate, but unfortunately, it's not human nature.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> The fact they didn't address them in advance will be their loss, because after going to the time and expense to transition over to a new service, I'm not going to be very receptive to anything retentions has to suggest.
> 
> Of course ... and then a s/w manager walks in to the office one day and announces: "I know we agreed we wouldn't have to do this, but we're doing it." ... and voila the story changes.
> 
> Nobody has to "live with it" or "accept" a decision they don't like. This thread is specifically about that decision, customers having issues with the decision, and any suggestions to help those users deal with it.


They did address it -- they put in the exit button workaround. I'm going out on a limb and saying that wasn't their first choice. But it's better than nothing.

I don't think the s/w manager can fix it. Maybe shrink the 20 seconds down to 5. It sounds like a hardware limitation to me. Now, maybe the D* s/w team can't program. The THR22-100 was programmed by Tivo and is more responsive than the D* HR22s. D* has had a long time to speed up their boxes, and they haven't been able to do it. What makes you think this time will be any different?

As long as you stick with D*, you're living with it. Everyone has told you to get the converter box. Maybe you need a component video splitter (with amplifier) as well. Or maybe switch to the THR22-100. Those are the suggestions. No one is suggesting waiting for D* to fix it, because it's very possible they may never fix it.

I think some people think D* intentionally broke it. While that may be true for the H24/HR24, I don't think it's true for the other boxes. Some people think that D* just ran out of time and might fix it later. But if you spend the time and effort to implement a workaround, that's not a good sign that the issue can easily be fixed. D* made a decision to switch to HD GUI and let the chips fall where they may. They're not going back to the SD GUI.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> They did address it -- they put in the exit button workaround.


Adding a kludge isn't what I call "addressing a problem", but as I've already suggested there's no sense arguing semantics.



bobcamp1 said:


> They're not going back to the SD GUI.


They don't have to go back. The SD GUI is still in there and working. 

btw, as I've already discussed in another post, code optimization is not something hardware companies like to fund. They prefer to focus on new features, and building faster h/w. After all, you can always sell the new customers your latest and fastest DVR.

Which is actually perfectly fine, except DirecTv doesn't have an acceptable upgrade plan. But that doesn't mean they can't, it just usually requires someone higher up to basically green light the effort. Which won't happen unless customers complain.

Marketing tends to drive s/w changes in an established product, and hence they're naturally interested in features which can drive sales and give them a competitive advantage or helps them keep up with the competition, but they don't want to lose sales or customers either.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Carl Spock;2944976
I think this is a more likely scenario. I bet this CSR has heard is multiple complaints the past few days about SD outputs and the new GUI. He talks about this with his fellow CSRs on break or over lunch. He finds out they are hearing complaints said:


> MISpat[/B], this guy just wants to make you happy (there is a great human need to please people) and he comes up with this schedule for the change.


I hear you and I can see that happening. But I'm going to hope that there's some truth to it, since D* obviously listens to customer feedback. That's pretty much the reason why we now have an HDGUI, right?


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## Donald111 (Sep 1, 2007)

If I forget to change my DVR back to 1080i will the DVR still record in HD and not SD ?


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

That's just the output. Same thing if you have it set to 1080i, it can still record 720p, or you're watching something in SD live, it can record something in the background in HD.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

MISpat said:


> I hear you and I can see that happening. But I'm going to hope that there's some truth to it, since D* obviously listens to customer feedback. That's pretty much the reason why we now have an HDGUI, right?


Is that why we got it?

Besides being way too slow, what was the feedback from customers?

I doubt most people even realized the old UI wasn't HD. It didn't switch resolutions, it filled the screen, it looked nice, etc.

I got the impression we got the HD UI as more of a marketing/competitive issue. I mean for instance Verizon's UI didn't even used to fill a 16:9 screen. It was a joke.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Donald111 said:


> If I forget to change my DVR back to 1080i will the DVR still record in HD and not SD ?


Yes; it will record in 720p, 1080i, or SD, depending on the source it's receiving, not output settings.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

JonW said:


> I got the impression we got the HD UI as more of a marketing/competitive issue. I mean for instance Verizon's UI didn't even used to fill a 16:9 screen. It was a joke.


The IMG 1.9 on a 7xxx series box is 16:9 and HD. On an old box in the 6xxx series it's 4:3 and SD (I think).

For $40 (or free if you can convince your local store), you can swap the old box for the new one. And yes all the ports work all the time with no restrictions or messages.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

JonW said:


> Is that why we got it?
> 
> Besides being way too slow, what was the feedback from customers?


I'm mainly referring to all the talk about getting an HD GUI here.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

MISpat said:


> I'm mainly referring to all the talk about getting an HD GUI here.


Well, once we knew we were getting one it generated a lot of talk, but I don't remember a bunch of threads calling for a true HD UI. Certainly the speed of the UI has been and remains a significant issue for many customers.


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> The IMG 1.9 on a 7xxx series box is 16:9 and HD. On an old box in the 6xxx series it's 4:3 and SD (I think).
> 
> For $40 (or free if you can convince your local store), you can swap the old box for the new one. And yes all the ports work all the time with no restrictions or messages.


I have the 7232 so it's up to snuff and I'm fully aware I can use all the ports at the same time without limitation. 

I don't think I could consider going to Verizon if they didn't introduce IMG 1.9. They've made a lot of progress.

However, I thought users with older DVRs were getting the new UI as well?

There sure were a lot of complaints about it: users who could no longer read the fonts, or who thought it made their unit much slower.

Being able to drop in to a Verizon store and walk out with their latest DVR for $40 is great, but they still have the same issue that you can't retain your old recordings on the new box.

I do wonder if my 7232 broke down whether I could still use my external eSATA if I could somehow get the 7232's cable card swapped out, but I digress.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Shades228 said:


> Holding down exit while the OSD is not up won't change the resolution.


It changes the resolution on mine even if the message isn't on the screen.

For what it's worth, shortening the time wouldn't even appease everyone (nor would it for me)... they still would not be able to see the guide or the recorded programs list on the SD outputs.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

MISpat said:


> It changes the resolution on mine even if the message isn't on the screen.
> 
> For what it's worth, shortening the time wouldn't even appease everyone (nor would it for me)... they still would not be able to see the guide or the recorded programs list on the SD outputs.


Changes that way for me too.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

MISpat said:


> It changes the resolution on mine even if the message isn't on the screen.
> 
> For what it's worth, shortening the time wouldn't even appease everyone (nor would it for me)... they still would not be able to see the guide or the recorded programs list on the SD outputs.


Does the closed captioning show up on the SD outputs if the machine is in HD mode?


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## moghedien (Dec 3, 2007)

Church AV Guy said:


> Does the closed captioning show up on the SD outputs if the machine is in HD mode?


The Directv-generated digital captions do not get sent over the SD outputs, but the line 21 captions are sent, so if your TV is setup to display CC1, CC3, etc, they will be displayed.

If you have a Component-to-composite adapter, it will enable you get the Directv digital captions, but the line 21 analog captions will be gone.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

moghedien said:


> The Directv-generated digital captions do not get sent over the SD outputs, but the line 21 captions are sent, so if your TV is setup to display CC1, CC3, etc, they will be displayed.
> 
> If you have a Component-to-composite adapter, it will enable you get the Directv digital captions, but the line 21 analog captions will be gone.


:nono2:
I use the SD outputs to feed my DVD recorders. I was all ready to get the component-to-composite down converter that has been discussed here because of the SD/HD issue. Now that you say the closed captions are not going to transfer! That ruins the whole thing for me. I use closed captioning a lot, and I cannot really see making DVDs without the CC infomation being present! I don't want them to be hardcodded into the video like if I had turned on the Directv-generated digital captions, or the closed captions with the receiver. I want the option of turning them on and off with the television. Now that is no longer an option?

Thanks again, DirecTV!


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> :nono2:
> I use the SD outputs to feed my DVD recorders. I was all ready to get the component-to-composite down converter that has been discussed here because of the SD/HD issue. Now that you say the closed captions are not going to transfer! That ruins the whole thing for me. I use closed captioning a lot, and I cannot really see making DVDs without the CC infomation being present! I don't want them to be hardcodded into the video like if I had turned on the Directv-generated digital captions, or the closed captions with the receiver. I want the option of turning them on and off with the television. Now that is no longer an option?
> 
> Thanks again, DirecTV!


If you're using a component to composite adapter you'll get the CC because CC goes out over component.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

moghedien said:


> The Directv-generated digital captions do not get sent over the SD outputs, but the line 21 captions are sent, so if your TV is setup to display CC1, CC3, etc, they will be displayed.
> 
> If you have a Component-to-composite adapter, it will enable you get the Directv digital captions, but the line 21 analog captions will be gone.





Church AV Guy said:


> :nono2:
> I use the SD outputs to feed my DVD recorders. I was all ready to get the component-to-composite down converter that has been discussed here because of the SD/HD issue. Now that you say the closed captions are not going to transfer! That ruins the whole thing for me. I use closed captioning a lot, and I cannot really see making DVDs without the CC infomation being present! I don't want them to be hardcodded into the video like if I had turned on the Directv-generated digital captions, or the closed captions with the receiver. I want the option of turning them on and off with the television. Now that is no longer an option?
> 
> Thanks again, DirecTV!





RunnerFL said:


> If you're using a component to composite adapter you'll get the CC because CC goes out over component.


I'll confirm that the component to composite converter box will work for closed captioning. I have the component to composite converter and I get both closed caption outputs, the "Directv subtitles" and "Closed Captioning". So you should be good to go.

However I still call bogus on the reason for defeating the guide output on the SD outputs, as the guide is no faster than it was, at least for me. Scrolling is faster (don't really care), but it still takes too long for the guide and List to come up. Net loss and it cost me extra $.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

Incidentally, in response to this change in the UI, I called directv to voice my concern. Their update forced me to purchase a new cable to run to a secondary TV that was previously hooked up via an s-video connection off my home theater room's Directv HD receiver. The first response from the tech rep. Was that they really didn't support having more than one TV hooked up to each receiver. HUH? After setting him straight on that matter I first requested a credit for the cost of a new 50' component cable (found a good one for $30 via amazon.com). More importantly, I strongly suggested they do away with that asinine message about the "not HD" message, since the receivers all come with standard def outputs as well as two HD connections, and for those of us who use both types we are already aware that we are using a non-HD signal to one or more TVs. Stop dummying up these receivers!

Don't forget! Call directv to get your credit for purchasing a new cable!


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

NaperDan said:


> ...After setting him straight on that matter I first requested a credit for the cost of a new 50' component cable (found a good one for $30 via amazon.com)...


You paid too much.  Only $18.51. http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10235&cs_id=1023507&p_id=2178&seq=1&format=2


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

The last mono price cable I bought couldn't carry the signal that far. In any case though, get the directv reps on the line and give them feedback.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

]

For those who have gone the RF converter or other workaround route due to using a standard def TV, Directv may still give you a credit, but maybe not full. I have been with D since inception, which made getting my money back easier. It still cannot hurt to ask, and the more we can get to ask, the sooner they'll realize that there is an issue, and the sooner they'll work out a solution that is less expensive for their own bottom line.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"jes" said:


> Expenses (or inconvenience) incurred by the customer as a side effect of D* system changes apparently is not a priority for D*... :nono2: Just look at the roll to MPEG4. I had to retire 2 [owned] high-end D* HD receivers and spend $150 to continue to use my HDTV for HD. I did talk them into 1 HR20 for free, but the bottom line is I lost a chunk of change...
> 
> ... and if you also have an HDTV connected, you drop the resolution on that too... IMHO a better solution would be suppress the big ugly grey warning for program control, Play, Pause, FF, etc. and only put the message up for request like the Guide, Playlist, Info, etc...


D needs to understand that the grey warning has got to go altogether. For those who have gone the RF converter or other workaround route due to using a standard def TV, Directv may still give you a credit, but maybe not full. I have been with D since inception, which made getting my money back easier. It still cannot hurt to ask, and the more we can get to ask, the sooner they'll realize that there is an issue, and the sooner they'll work out a solution that is less expensive for their own bottom line.

Bottom line for us, the users, is get on the phone and ask for credit for expenses incurred in fixing it on our end, until they fix it on theirs.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"DBSNewbie" said:


> If you are not on SD resolution, a message on the screen will appear...
> 
> "This TV or its cables are not HD. To see screen graphics, press the RES key on the front of the receiver until this message no longer appears."


It's the "exit" button.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"JohnDG" said:


> What's the resolution output got to do with the speed of the menus?
> 
> Also: the 480p exit button doesn't work when trying to get back to 1080i. I have to turn the receiver off/on before I am able to toggle back to HD.
> 
> jdg


Really? It works on all of mine.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"Stuart Sweet" said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> Let's talk about the topic, not each other.
> 
> ...


Here! Here!


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## JohnDG (Aug 16, 2006)

NaperDan said:


> Really? It works on all of mine.


I didn't take the time to debug what combo of equipment was connected and powered on, etc., that caused the issue. I no longer use this feature anyways: I just toggle the resolution into 480i using the resolution button when working on the DVD recorder.

jdg


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"Directv never advertised the fact that you could use any of their HD receivers to control multiple TV's. DIRECTV never authorized or supported any installations setup in this manner with their HD receivers. "


I beg to differ. Just the mere fact that multiple outputs will work simultaneously negates that statement. Add to that installer hookups to multiple TVs from one receiver...


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"Carl Spock" said:


> When I bought a Honda Element in 2004, it had a sunroof. Looking at a new one in 2011, I noticed the sunroof had been removed in favor of better roll-over protection.
> 
> My first computer had a serial jack. Now try to find a computer with one. Instead, there are USB and HDMI connections. I still use a serial connection all the time. Many whole house stereo systems and some remote programming devices use serial connections. I have to use a USB to serial adapter to make them work.
> 
> ...


Andy?


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"Shades228" said:


> Here are the following solutions:
> 
> [*]Buy an adapter
> [*]Ignore the message
> ...


Yeah....until the Misses tries to watch a show in the workout room!


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"NFLnut" said:


> How many D* subscribers use this board? I would say that it would be close to 0.01%.
> 
> Your premise is ridiculous.


I would say less than that figure.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

NaperDan, just a quick word of advice...you can multi quote posts rather than replying to each post with a new post.


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## NaperDan (Jun 9, 2009)

"sigma1914" said:


> NaperDan, just a quick word of advice...you can multi quote posts rather than replying to each post with a new post.


Yeah, I know. I'm just catching up. Haven't been on for a while, and this new iPhone app...

There aren't too many issues that bother me. This one went too far.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

NaperDan said:


> Yeah, I know. I'm just catching up. Haven't been on for a while, and this new iPhone app...
> 
> There aren't too many issues that bother me. This one went too far.


But you got it resolved, so it's all good.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

:icon_lame :soapbox: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: 
!rolling :rant: :bang 

I think that about says it all! Have a great day!


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> If you're using a component to composite adapter you'll get the CC because CC goes out over component.





nowandthen said:


> I'll confirm that the component to composite converter box will work for closed captioning. I have the component to composite converter and I get both closed caption outputs, the "Directv subtitles" and "Closed Captioning". So you should be good to go.
> 
> However I still call bogus on the reason for defeating the guide output on the SD outputs, as the guide is no faster than it was, at least for me. Scrolling is faster (don't really care), but it still takes too long for the guide and List to come up. Net loss and it cost me extra $.


I ran some tests yesterday with the Monoprice component to composite converter shown here. It did not seem to convert the closed captions. What device are you using? This implies that the CC info (the line 21 analog captions) are in fact being sent on the component outputs, even at HD resolutions. I'll have to run some additional tests. I was beginning to despair.

Is it possible that the slowly upcoming DirecTivo device will not have this guide/resolution interaction problem. If it does not, then changing to that might be the solution.

I have spent over $700 in distribution amplifiers, converters, and cables because of this change to the way DirecTV handles simultaneous output. I just want the stuff to work the way it did for me before the new GUI.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Church AV Guy said:


> :nono2:
> I use the SD outputs to feed my DVD recorders. I was all ready to get the component-to-composite down converter that has been discussed here because of the SD/HD issue. Now that you say the closed captions are not going to transfer! That ruins the whole thing for me. I use closed captioning a lot, and I cannot really see making DVDs without the CC infomation being present! I don't want them to be hardcodded into the video like if I had turned on the Directv-generated digital captions, or the closed captions with the receiver. I want the option of turning them on and off with the television. Now that is no longer an option?


In response to your earlier question to me, the closed captions do not show up on my screen on the analog outputs when in HD mode.

Regarding what you said in this post, are you saying that you used to be able to record to DVD with the closed captioning on the D* receiver turned off, but then when playing the DVD you could turn them on via your TV?


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

MISpat said:


> In response to your earlier question to me, the closed captions do not show up on my screen on the analog outputs when in HD mode.
> 
> Regarding what you said in this post, are you saying that you used to be able to record to DVD with the closed captioning on the D* receiver turned off, but then when playing the DVD you could turn them on via your TV?


Yes, definitely. The captioning was not visible on screen, but when I turned the captioning on with the television, while watching a DVD that I had made previously, the television then displayed the captions. If you turn the captioning off on the television, then they turned off again, not visible on screen.

I have two HR22-100s, and one HR21-700. I just ran a test and I do not detect any caption information in the component outputs of the two HR22s, at any output resolution. My DVD player puts the captioning information in its component outputs, and my television can display that information (when CC1 is turned on) but it was unable to display any captioning using the component outputs of my DirecTV receivers. I haven't tried to HR21 because it's much harder to get to.

Does anyone know for certain if ANY of the DirecTV receivers output the closed captioning information on its component outputs?

Back to the possibility of getting a DirecTivo it seems.



NaperDan said:


> D needs to understand that the grey warning has got to go altogether.


If they made a disable command for this nearly full screen warning popping up ALL THE TIME whenever a button is pushed on the remote, it would be workable. It's like they are deliberately being annoying. It's in the software, just FIX IT--give us an option to turn it off!!


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

Church AV Guy said:


> Does anyone know for certain if ANY of the DirecTV receivers output the closed captioning information on its component outputs?
> 
> !


I have the HR22-100. I bought the Monoprice #7114 Component (YpbPr) to Composite Converter. The HR22 component output plugs into the 7114 inputs. The 7114 composite output plugs into into a rather old Channelvision CVT1 Stereo-II modulator set to channel 22 (not that that matters). I never change the resolution on the HR22. It is always set to 1080i. I can go to any of my other TVs that are set to channel 22 and see the guide without getting the ginormous warning message. The resolution of the guide isn't the greatest but you can read it.

Directv offers two CC options, "Directv Subtitles" and "Closed Captioning". I tested both versions and they both work. I can see both versions on any of my TVs that are tuned to channel 22 (SD output from modulator). Again, the HR22 is always set to 1080i so yes, CC is output over composite, the 7114 will convert it to component. By testing CC, I mean I turn on CC via the INFO button then select CC. I did not record anything then turn on my TVs CC to see if the CC was there. So I cannot confirm that the CC signal is passing within the video signal, only that I can turn on the HR22's CC and see it on the down converted and modulated SD signals.

I had to adjust the gain settings on the Channelvision modulator. The converter seems to pump up the signal level. The picture looked brighter and was overdriven. But after some fussing around i got a reasonable picture. Can't say that it is quite as good as before, but good enough for now. Maybe more fussing around would improve it further.

I find myself dreaming about an HD modulator. That would be nice!


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> Does anyone know for certain if ANY of the DirecTV receivers output the closed captioning information on its component outputs?


My parents have an HR20 and an HR21, and both are hooked up to their respective HDTV's using component cables, and both show closed captioning.

So does the H21, also hooked up with component.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

I'm not making myself clear here. I KNOW that if I select closed captioning on the HR22, the receiver puts the text into the video stream permanently changing the picture. What I am asking is if there is a receiver that PASSES the imbedded captioning information invisibly to the television, so I can turn the captions on and off with the television alone? That way I can record the unaltered video with the captioning information available for me to turn off and on via the television when I play back the DVD. 

From what I can tell, the HR22 does not include the imbedded captioning information in the component video output, just the S-Video and composite video outputs.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

Church AV Guy said:


> Does anyone know for certain if ANY of the DirecTV receivers output the closed captioning information on its component outputs?


on my HR20-100, viewing an HD program
HDMI, Component shows D* captions. (both types)
S-Video and composite, no captions on from D*. CC data in the video signal.

drop to 480p, all outputs show D* captions. (both types)
S-Video and composite, CC data in the video signal.

I can't confirm CC data in the video signal on HDMI or Component...


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

The line 21 CC data is only on analog outputs(composite, s-video, and component), its written into the standard IIRC. The reason many modern devices offer their own built-in CC, like D*'s solution, is because there is no line 21 CC data in the digital stream(HDMI connection), it is not part of the standard, but CC data was some kind of govt.(FCC I believe) requirement IIRC.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Church AV Guy said:


> What I am asking is if there is a receiver that PASSES the imbedded captioning information invisibly to the television, so I can turn the captions on and off with the television alone? That way I can record the unaltered video with the captioning information available for me to turn off and on via the television when I play back the DVD.


That's what I thought you were getting at. I never knew you could do this. I just tried a DVD that I recorded from my HR24 prior to the HDGUI and my TV did not allow me to turn on closed captions. But it was originally recorded onto a DVD-RW, ripped to my PC's hard drive, and then used IFOedit to set the widescreen flag before burning to DVD-R. Do you know if I lost the captions at that point?


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

So, yet another reason why DirecTv should go back and find a better way to address the problem and that there isn't a $50 solution that solves the bug for all customers.


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## moghedien (Dec 3, 2007)

Church AV Guy said:


> What I am asking is if there is a receiver that PASSES the imbedded captioning information invisibly to the television, so I can turn the captions on and off with the television alone? That way I can record the unaltered video with the captioning information available for me to turn off and on via the television when I play back the DVD.


The Directv receiver will pass the imbedded captions to your TV over the SD(composite) outputs just fine. The problem begins with the composite/component adapter removes the embedded captions. So if you want the embedded captions, don't use the component/composite adapter. But that leaves you with no guide, just the "your cables are not HD" message. To get the embedded captions and the guide at the same time, you will need to set the Directv receiver to 480i resolution before your DVD recorder records your show.


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

Interesting topic. I didn't know about this problem. You've made me curious to check out my basement workshop setup that has an HR-24 connected to the hdtv via hdmi and a dvd recorder by s-video to see if there's any difficulty. I haven't used it since before I got the hdgui on 1/24. I only use it as a spare receiver and for offloading shows to dvd. The dvd recorder is also connected to the tv by hdmi and has the ability to switch between 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p output so I don't think there should be an issue since it's converting the HR24's composite 480i input and played back store-bought and burned dvds to 1080p anyway.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> Interesting topic. I didn't know about this problem. You've made me curious to check out my basement workshop setup that has an HR-24 connected to the hdtv via hdmi and a dvd recorder by s-video to see if there's any difficulty. I haven't used it since before I got the hdgui on 12/24. I only use it as a spare receiver and for offloading shows to dvd. The dvd recorder is also connected to the tv by hdmi and has the ability to switch between 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p output so I don't think there should be an issue since it's converting the HR24's composite 480i input and played back store-bought and burned dvds to 1080p anyway.


If you use it in that manner, would it not be more convenient to hook an external drive to offload to- meaning, though, you'd have to record to it originally, but if it's a spare.... just thinking of a way to preserve HD....


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

Laxguy said:


> If you use it in that manner, would it not be more convenient to hook an external drive to offload to- meaning, though, you'd have to record to it originally, but if it's a spare.... just thinking of a way to preserve HD....


There's still a limit to how many programs you can save. When you record them to DVD, the storage is limitless, and you can edit the commercials out if you wish. (all of which I do)


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

I recommend not pressing and holding the Exit button while connected to an HDTV by HDMI cable just to see the SD Only mode. I had a lot of fun getting it back into 1080i mode. Repeatedly pressing Exit only swaps between 480i and 480p once you've engaged it. I had to go into HDTV in Settings and reselect 1080i and 1080p only. After saving that and backing out your still in 480 mode. You have to repeatedly press TV Format on Remote or in the onscreen guide when you press Info in order to get it to shift out of 480p and into 1080i again. PITA.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

moghedien said:


> The Directv receiver will pass the imbedded captions to your TV over the SD(composite) outputs just fine. The problem begins with the composite/component adapter removes the embedded captions.


I don't think this is exactly correct. My television will display embedded closed captions using component inputs, at least, at some resolutions. The HR22s do not put the captioning data out the component connections at all, at least, my television does not see any captioning data from these connections. It *MAY* be true that the Monoprice component to composite downconverter does not processs the embedded captioning infomation, but if it isn't there to start with, there is NO chance that it will end up in the composite or S-Video output.



moghedien said:


> So if you want the embedded captions, don't use the component/composite adapter. But that leaves you with no guide, just the "your cables are not HD" message.


With such a long on-screen persistance that it makes using SD almost impossible. With every fast-forward or skip button-press, the message comes up for twenty-five seconds (or so). I don't mind not having the guide or other on screen information, like the progress bar, but the persistance of that message is completely unacceptable. If they would provide an option to inhibit it, that would work out ok for me, but NO, they won't!



moghedien said:


> To get the embedded captions and the guide at the same time, you will need to set the Directv receiver to 480i resolution before your DVD recorder records your show.


ANd then I get to see my television shows in SD rather than HD! That is not an acceptable alternative! It was a programming decision by DirecTV, they can easily change it--*THAT* is the acceptable solution!


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## Christopher Gould (Jan 14, 2007)

"NewForceFiveFan" said:


> I recommend not pressing and holding the Exit button while connected to an HDTV by HDMI cable just to see the SD Only mode. I had a lot of fun getting it back into 1080i mode. Repeatedly pressing Exit only swaps between 480i and 480p once you've engaged it. I had to go into HDTV in Settings and reselect 1080i and 1080p only. After saving that and backing out your still in 480 mode. You have to repeatedly press TV Format on Remote or in the onscreen guide when you press Info in order to get it to shift out of 480p and into 1080i again. PITA.


This is not the way it works with mine. Hold exit goes 480p hold again 1080i.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

Christopher Gould said:


> This is not the way it works with mine. Hold exit goes 480p hold again 1080i.


Mine too. I did find that if you do not Exit from 480p, then you have to re-set all the formats to get 720 and 1080 back.


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## moghedien (Dec 3, 2007)

Church AV Guy said:


> I don't think this is exactly correct. My television will display embedded closed captions using component inputs, at least, at some resolutions. The HR22s do not put the captioning data out the component connections at all, at least, my television does not see any captioning data from these connections. It *MAY* be true that the Monoprice component to composite downconverter does not processs the embedded captioning infomation, but if it isn't there to start with, there is NO chance that it will end up in the composite or S-Video output.
> 
> After I got the HDGUI, but before I istalled the C/C converter, I obsevered two things:
> 
> ...


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

moghedien;2956505If you are using a DVD recorder said:


> If the recording is on your DVDR[/b], and not your DVR, you're using the DVDR to FF or skip, so the Directv message should not display. If you are not talking about using a DVDR with a Directv receiver, then why are you quoting me...


You misunderstand. The recording is not on my DVD recorder, it's on my HR22. I am playing back a recording from the HR22 ONTO the DVD recorder. Playing back my DVDs does not involve my HR22s, or DirecTV at all. While I am recording to the DVD recorder from the HR22, every time I encounter a commercial break, I fast-forward through it. This brings up the twenty second warning screen, making it very difficult to make recordings. The alternatives you have listed (which I quoted) are the only ones available to me, and neither is acceptable. I am NOT blaming you, I'm blaming DirecTV for a decision they have made in the programming of their DVRs, a programming decision that appears to be deliberately malicious.

If I want to watch a program in HD--*which I do!* then I have the twenty second warning go onto my recording (which as you say, is using the SD outputs) which I don't want. If I set the HR22 to SD, I avoid the warning screen, but then I am watching an SD picture on my 55" HDTV, which is also unacceptable. I can use the component to composite downconverter, but then the embedded closed captioning data is lost since it isn't included in the component output video stream. I can turn the captioning ON with the HR22, but then the captioning is not embedded, but visible all the time, obscuring part of the picture; and once it's recorded that way, it cannot be turned off when later viewing the DVDs.

This was not a problem with the old GUI, but impossible with the new one. I just got the next update to the GUI last evening, and the SD warning banner is still there, and still twenty seconds in persistance. If I could just disable that warning screen, it would be okay with me. I don't want to record the GUI information on my DVDs, just the program information, but certainly NOT the warning screen! After the first or second time it appears, we are aware of the issue, let us disable it please!


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

Ok, I had the chance last friday night to play with the HR24 in the basement. Both the HD-DVR and dvd recorder are connected via hdmi cable even though the connection between the hddvr and dvd recorder is composite (480i/480p).

HDMI 1: hddvr
HDMI 2: dvd recorder

When pressing Guide on Remote hdmi1 displays the guide with mini video window and hdmi2 displays the "press exit" nag screen over fullscreen video before disappearing after a few seconds if you flip between the two inputs on the tv. This annoyance also effects what the Info, List, Play, Pause, FF, RW buttons put oncreen. In order to see the the stuff while watching on the dvd recorder you do have to press-and-hold Exit on remote to engage or disengage 480p. What a pain in the ass and just makes an extra step when going to burn something to dvd. Yes you could in theory keep swapping between hdmi1 and hdmi2 but that's even more asinine. They should've just made the new HDGUI output at both HD and SD at the same time for people with setups like this.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

I leave most of my units in SD so it's easy to record to DVDR from them. They still record programming in HD. When I watch something from one of them using Whole Home from a unit that is set to 1080i I do get it in HD.


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## HerntDawg (Oct 6, 2008)

After reading the first 2 pages of posts, I could do without the HD GUI.

For no reason other reason than it is no improvement.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

HerntDawg said:


> After reading the first 2 pages of posts, I could do without the HD GUI.
> 
> For no reason other reason than it is no improvement.


When working correctly, its a vast improvement. Thats why some of us are scratching our heads trying to figure out why some are not seeing the improvements the rest of us are seeing.:scratchin


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## JonW (Dec 21, 2006)

CCarncross said:


> When working correctly, its a vast improvement. Thats why some of us are scratching our heads trying to figure out why some are not seeing the improvements the rest of us are seeing.:scratchin


A vast improvement at what?

Not updating the SD overlay lets the unit draw the screen faster, but it doesn't eliminate the time it takes to build the screen in the first place.

I've already discovered a sure fire way to speed up my HR20-700: just disconnect it from everything.

If it doesn't have to be bothered recording programs, downloading guide information, filling dual buffers, or communicating over the LAN, it's a downright speed-demon even with a 2TB hard drive.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> When working correctly, its a vast improvement. Thats why some of us are scratching our heads trying to figure out why some are not seeing the improvements the rest of us are seeing.:scratchin


I agree that it is a bit faster, but the colors are harder to read, for me and many others. Since the latest update, not only have all three of my DVRs returned to being incredibly, tortuously slow, they have eliminated two functions that many of us here used frequently, the PIG control, and the doube dash function. Add to that, the incredible SD output USELESS nag message, it seems to some of us that DirecTV is eliminating useful features. What improvements exactly are you thinking about?


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

Personally I like the colors and it's easier to read and the guide does run faster, at least for me on my HR24's. What is a PIG control and the double dash function? I think I wouldn't be so annoyed with the hdgui if the spare tv with the dvd recorder was a standard definition tube job but it's an hdtv. If it was a stand alone bluray recorder with hd inputs and outputs this wouldn't be an issue.


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## nowandthen (Nov 19, 2005)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> Personally I like the colors and it's easier to read and the guide does run faster, at least for me on my HR24's. What is a PIG control and the double dash function? I think I wouldn't be so annoyed with the hdgui if the spare tv with the dvd recorder was a standard definition tube job but it's an hdtv. If it was a stand alone bluray recorder with hd inputs and outputs this wouldn't be an issue.


Once open the guide scrolls faster, but big deal. My two HR22s are so slow now, don't know why, seems to take forever for the guide or list to come up. And every time a program starts or stops recording the tV screen goes blank for a few seconds. 

I too don't see the advantage of the HD Guide. Pretty much same look, but different colors, oh you get some pretty cover art here and there but I rarely open the menu locations that show that stuff.

I too would like to see trick play return to the PIG.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

The SD message can be eliminated with a component to composite converter which is an acceptable work-around. The HD-UI Menu, Guide, and List look better to my older eyes than the previous SD version. I do not like the slow RF remote response and the audio drop-outs when switching from SD to DD5.1. Media Share sucks. It would be nice to see Media Share fixed. My guess that hell will freeze over before any firmware is error free!


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

allenn said:


> The SD message can be eliminated with a component to composite converter which is an acceptable work-around.


Not to those of us who record to DVD because it degrades the signal quality.
It also doesn't work for someone who already uses those outputs for other purposes (ie. Slingbox, or an older HDTV with no HDMI inputs)


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

I get a kick out of how my Toshiba dvd recorder was manufactured in February 2011 but only has Composite and S-Video inputs for recording to dvd but it has hdmi, component, composite, and s-video outputs and can output on component in 480i or 480p and on hdmi in 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. Would it really have cost more to put in a second hdmi (for input) and an HD-to-SD chip in addition to the SD-to-HD. Can't wait till hdmi is the norm for input/output and all the other obsoletes go away.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> I get a kick out of how my Toshiba dvd recorder was manufactured in February 2011 but only has Composite and S-Video inputs for recording to dvd but it has hdmi, component, composite, and s-video outputs and can output on component in 480i or 480p and on hdmi in 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. Would it really have cost more to put in a second hdmi (for input) and an HD-to-SD chip in addition to the SD-to-HD. Can't wait till hdmi is the norm for input/output and all the other obsoletes go away.


It's against the law in this country. Hollywood has seen to that. HDMI and/or Component inputs on your DVD recorder and it would still only record in SD but it would help us in this instance to get rid of the nag screen. But they will not allow that.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

joed32 said:


> It's against the law in this country. Hollywood has seen to that. HDMI and/or Component inputs on your DVD recorder and it would still only record in SD but it would help us in this instance to get rid of the nag screen. But they will not allow that.


Not true. Any DVD Recorder that happens to have component inputs, and there are very very few, will record in HD. Also my HDPVR records in HD (h.264) via the component inputs.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

RunnerFL said:


> Not true. Any DVD Recorder that happens to have component inputs, and there are very very few, will record in HD. Also my HDPVR records in HD (h.264) via the component inputs.


Are you asserting that it's legal to now manufacture units or sell them in the US that have HDMI In? Or even Component?


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> Are you asserting that it's legal to now manufacture units or sell them in the US that have HDMI In? Or even Component?


No, I'm not. I'm only saying that on existing units that have that input it is possible to record HD (h.264).


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

RunnerFL said:


> No, I'm not. I'm only saying that on existing units that have that input it is possible to record HD (h.264).


Fair enough. It was only that the chain of statements might make some think that the "Not true" pertained to the future availability of component or HDMI on recording units.

Thanks, Hollywoodville!


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

RunnerFL said:


> Not true. Any DVD Recorder that happens to have component inputs, and there are very very few, will record in HD. Also my HDPVR records in HD (h.264) via the component inputs.


I think you're thinking of only computer devices for recording from component inputs. The DVD recorders which had component inputs only recorded in SD. They do however allow you to record the full widescreen picture from most cable boxes. I had a Polaroid recorder specifically for this reason... to convert component to S-video so that I could record widescreen programs into my preferred Panasonic recorder. 
In fact, I got DirecTV just so that I could eliminate that in between device. Worked great until the HDGUI... now they want me to incorporate a device in between once again.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

MISpat said:


> I think you're thinking of only computer devices for recording from component inputs.


Nope, I've seen at least 2 models that record in h.264.


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## Church AV Guy (Jul 9, 2007)

joed32 said:


> It's against the law in this country. Hollywood has seen to that. HDMI and/or Component inputs on your DVD recorder and it would still only record in SD but it would help us in this instance to get rid of the nag screen. But they will not allow that.





RunnerFL said:


> Not true. Any DVD Recorder that happens to have component inputs, and there are very very few, will record in HD. Also my HDPVR records in HD (h.264) via the component inputs.


As far as I know, and I have done a lot of research on the subject, no standalone DVD type of recorder that has been marketed and sold in the United States, has had HD recording capability. A few could record in HD from camcorders. A few had component inputs, but they would only record in SD resolution, not HD. None, ever had an HDMI input. Maybe some made for, and marketed in, other markets (Hong Kong) have this capability, but not any made for the U.S. market--that I know of.

RunnerFL, if you know of such a device, please tell me the make and model of the machine(s), and I'll pass the info along to the AVS DVD recorder forum, where many of us have been eagerly waiting for such a device, and have even sent letters to manufacturers of SD devices asking them to make a BR HD recorder for us.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Church AV Guy said:


> As far as I know, and I have done a lot of research on the subject, no standalone DVD type of recorder that has been marketed and sold in the United States, has had HD recording capability. A few could record in HD from camcorders. A few had component inputs, but they would only record in SD resolution, not HD. None, ever had an HDMI input. Maybe some made for, and marketed in, other markets (Hong Kong) have this capability, but not any made for the U.S. market--that I know of.
> 
> RunnerFL, if you know of such a device, please tell me the make and model of the machine(s), and I'll pass the info along to the AVS DVD recorder forum, where many of us have been eagerly waiting for such a device, and have even sent letters to manufacturers of SD devices asking them to make a BR HD recorder for us.


The analog loophole is closed so any new products created will have HDMI and will have to support HDCP which will not allow recording. The bottom line is that the people who make this program don't want you doing this and are making it harder and harder to do. You're also making it harder on yourself by removing commercials in the recording rather than just ffing through them on the dvd. If you did that you wouldn't have the issues you're having with the popup message.


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

You can pretty much thank the MPAA for the total lack of any HDMI removable media recordings. There are workarounds, but they all involve using a computer.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Church AV Guy said:


> RunnerFL, if you know of such a device, please tell me the make and model of the machine(s), and I'll pass the info along to the AVS DVD recorder forum, where many of us have been eagerly waiting for such a device, and have even sent letters to manufacturers of SD devices asking them to make a BR HD recorder for us.


The ones I saw were very early models and not made anymore. One was a Panasonic and I want to say the other was an LG.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

I would not be surprised if HDMI was the only out port on future DVR's. The film industry does not want you to copy media. The movie producers have tried many kinds of DRM with little success, but their latest iteration, CINAVIA, is not breakable. Many studios are embedding this into motion picture audio. Any copied movies including BluRay discs will block audio from being played. Sony's PS3 and many BluRay players contain CINAVIA DRM. D* is sure to add this protection to their content and hardware. What's the world coming to?


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

allenn said:


> their latest iteration, CINAVIA, is not breakable.


Wont take long.



> Any copied movies including BluRay discs will block audio from being played. What's the world coming to?


No viable copy to HTPC server .... No buy discs. If they think Im going back to the '90's and looking at a hard copy list of my movies, hunting for the disc, and putting it in a player...they are smoking crack.


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## MISpat (Apr 22, 2009)

allenn said:


> I would not be surprised if HDMI was the only out port on future DVR's. The film industry does not want you to copy media.


That's the point at which I'd no longer have any use for pay TV. 
And the sad thing is, people make perfect copies of their damn movies all the freakin' time using computers, so they aren't preventing ANYTHING! The only thing they will prevent are people like me who want to record sports and other TV shows, not movies.


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## allenn (Nov 19, 2005)

MISpat said:


> ...And the sad thing is, people make perfect copies of their damn movies all the freakin' time using computers, so they aren't preventing ANYTHING! The only thing they will prevent are people like me who want to record sports and other TV shows, not movies.


Yes, in most cases; you can play the videos on a personal computer, but you cannot stream the video to a DRM aware device like the Sony PS3, BluRay players, or TVs. Likewise, if you burn a BluRay disc which contains Cinavia DRM; the video's audio will not play on the device. So far, streaming hacks for Cinavia have failed. Everytime someone jailbreaks DRM, a new protection is invented. It is all about the money. Have a great day!


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

MISpat said:


> That's the point at which I'd no longer have any use for pay TV.
> And the sad thing is, people make perfect copies of their damn movies all the freakin' time using computers, so they aren't preventing ANYTHING! The only thing they will prevent are people like me who want to record sports and other TV shows, not movies.


Why do you think they want you to be able to do this? They make box sets of shows for reasons. I can understand sporting events as most teams don't have box sets of the seasons but overall anything that is going to reduce their revenue they're not going to want to have happen and will do whatever they can to stop it.

DRM is like a lock on a house. It will stop honest people but those who are truly intend on doing something it won't stop them.

For Blu-ray next year is the end of component connections and AACS will not be allowed over anything but HDMI. There's nothing making the content providers do the same thing in their boxes as well. They're already requiring DHCP compliance and it wouldn't take much to make it so that you couldn't output HD on component cables either. The new PS3 coming out already enforces this.


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

Did the "Betamax case" of the 1970's get overturned? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc

The MPAA really needs to go after the real bootleggers and not the average person that wants to record something for their own personal use on a stand-alone dvd recorder.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> Did the "Betamax case" of the 1970's get overturned? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._of_America_v._Universal_City_Studios,_Inc
> 
> The MPAA really needs to go after the real bootleggers and not the average person that wants to record something for their own personal use on a stand-alone dvd recorder.


No but as the case was well before HD was a technology in the home the case does not dictate that it has to be available in all formats. Essentially it would take someone making a new litigation against companies blocking the HDMI copying allowed to get this included with this case or as a new one.

You can still do what the Betamax case says you just can't do it in high def. They allow you to make SD copies still and there has not been any attempt to block it that I'm aware of for TV purposes.


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