# HDTV Magazine: DIRECTV's HR20 - DVR Debate Rages On



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

*DIRECTV's HR20 - DVR Debate Rages On*



> The Debate
> As I write this, the negative/problem posts continue to stack up on DBSTalk.com, a Web forum devoted to satellite TV and its users. Since late summer, that particular forum has been ground zero for a major "debate" of sorts, one that, in essence, separated DIRECTV defenders from detractors (though to be fair, not everyone who posts is firmly on one side or the other).
> 
> ......


There is a *LOT* more in the article, then just that above...
So check out the rest of it at: *HDTV Magazine*

And let me take a moment, to thank the author (in all seriousness): Tom Starner; for authoring that article in a way that truely shows how professional of a columinst/writer... you really are.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Thanks to moonman for all posting a link to the same article.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Tom - kudos to you for getting some mainstream media attention on this.


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## MrBill64 (Aug 3, 2006)

I could not have written a better article myself. In fact, the author's description of problems mirrors mine almost to a "T". Thanks Earl for posting the link.

Bill


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

This article is anew sacred document for exactly what some of us have been trying to articulate. Excellent peice.

I particularly like this paragraph -- it sums it up nicely:

"There are those on DBSTalk.com who claim they have never had a single HR20 problem (and for reasons better left to a professional therapist, proceed to belittle others who have had problems for being "whiners " and/or "complainers"). Others give DIRECTV a pass because this is "bleeding edge" technology, so naturally some hiccups are to be expected. Another camp says complaining doesn't solve the problem, working to help DIRECTV fix things by reporting issues, etc., is the right-headed path. And my stance: No one buys (in this case, "leases") a $299 piece of home electronics gear that is clearly advertised as ready for prime time expecting to be a beta tester. A few minor early problems? Sure. But this mess? Not a chance."

Even better that this is coming from someone who has not been seriously plagued by the Black Screen problem, because he can't be acused of being another whiner...


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

If you think it's a great article you should also Digg it so it will maybe make the front page of Digg. I'll read it after lunch.


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## tbackus (Nov 21, 2006)

Very well written article. Great Journalism going on there. 

He's got my situation down too. I can live with a RBR every week or so, but when it misses recordings.... well, you try to explain it to the wife! And essentially i am stuck because of the two year commitment!


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Removed from the heat of battle (rapid-fire pro-and-con exchanges on this forum,) Mr. Starner comes up with a balanced, thoughtful article.

My compliments!


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## spolaski (Sep 12, 2006)

I take from the writing style and opinions expressed that the author of the article, Tom Starner, is the same person as tstarn, a prolific poster that is listed now as a "banned user". What gives?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

spolaski said:


> I take from the writing style and opinions expressed that the author of the article, Tom Starner, is the same person as tstarn, a prolific poster that is listed now as a "banned user". What gives?


We are working with tstarn to rectify that situation. It is a private issue.
And that is all that will be said about here in the public forum.

:backtotop


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Several comments:

As a former E* AAEP+HD sub, I survived the infamous Dishplayer debacle relatively unscathed, but others
were not so lucky. Dan Collins got so incensed with the product that he even tried to initiate a class-action
suit against EchoStar. The DP's faults were eventually resolved, but the damage had been done and many
long-time DishNetwork subs went over to D* or back to the dark side.

The question here is how long will HR20 users put up with what many have angrily termed a "POS/POC"
until they jump ship. With D*'s minimal selection of only 9 national HD channels, I would have been gone
long before the end of the year. For those of you hanging on by your fingernails, best of luck, but please
don't hold your breath waiting for D*'s promise of 100 HD channels this year -- or even in 2008, for that
matter. It ain't gonna happen.

In regard to Tom Starner's comment that _"...DIRECTV defenders say similar issues are reported on TiVo
forums, and the DVRs provided by cable companies are no more reliable."_, I happen to have two of the
Scientific-Atlanta 8300HD DVRs from Adelphia (now Comcast) and as a power-user I can report that they
are absolutely rock-solid. I can easily give both of my machines a 99.999% reliability score.

What is up with satellite receivers, I don't know, but I can think of no other CE product that wouldn't already
be piled high in the returns bin as unhappy _former_ users seek out better solutions.

Finally, perhaps disgruntled D* subs should take a serious look at that great offer from DishNetwork for new
HD subscribers -- not only a FREE HD DVR that actually works as advertised, but 30 already existing
national HD channels awaiting your HD viewing pleasure.


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## gcisko (Sep 27, 2006)

Awesome article which 100% reflects my experience with the unit. He said the same thing I have stated. Which is when the HR20 works it is awesome. But whether you have problems or not, the number of firmware downloads to point to something...

Anyway I would definately have potential HR20 users read that article first before they decide if they want it. He also correctly mentioned that the HR20 was the best option out there. For me it certainly is. So I sit tight and hope it gets fixed.


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## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

Good article. My unit has been pretty good for the first 3 months but only for light recording (only about 10 or so season passes). Its not my primary DVR. Ever since Santa and Elvis, its a hit or miss as to when its going to lock up and require the RBR. I dont really have issues with Scheduling or recording but that is dependent on the black screen or lockup. Despite some issues with HD Tivo, I've had one since Day 1 and its been a reliable DVR workhorse. I trust it completely. Its the girl you marry and have kids with and retire together.

The HR20, its like a beatiful new girlfriend that you dont know that well. On the surface, what a knock out. The sex is great. But in truth, she is cheating on you with your best friend, stealing money from your wallet and is puke bag away from being committed to a hospital for anorexia. But the sex, its too damn good so you overlook the other things.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brewer4 said:


> The HR20, its like a beatiful new girlfriend that you dont know that well. On the surface, what a knock out. The sex is great. But in truth, she is cheating on you with your best friend, stealing money from your wallet and is puke bag away from being committed to a hospital for anorexia. But the sex, its too damn good so you overlook the other things.


I really need to go home now, and spend some time with my TWO HR20s....


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## LI-SVT (May 18, 2006)

Is this HDTV site a big enough fish that D* will provide a writen response?

I wonder if enough people at a high level within D* realy understand the dilema the HR20 has put them in. I know engineering is working on the problems, but is the company as a whole moving on?


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## moonman (Oct 27, 2004)

LI-SVT said:


> Is this HDTV site a big enough fish that D* will provide a writen response?


----------------
According to the article, D* already has responded...Quote:
Company spokesman Robert Mercer would only say DIRECTV is continuing to listen to customer feedback and improve the product via software downloads. "This is our workhorse set-top going forward, so we are committed to maximizing its performance," Mercer added via email. He did not respond a request for specific statistical data on problem HR20s, nor to questions about reliability, specific issues, etc.Unquote


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

moonman said:


> ----------------
> According to the article, D* already has responded...Quote:
> Company spokesman Robert Mercer would only say DIRECTV is continuing to listen to customer feedback and improve the product via software downloads. "This is our workhorse set-top going forward, so we are committed to maximizing its performance," Mercer added via email. He did not respond a request for specific statistical data on problem HR20s, nor to questions about reliability, specific issues, etc.Unquote


Of course I'd love something that had more "truthiness" but this is consistent with what's been said over and over - everyone who matters understands how important this product is.


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

This is going to make all of the "POS" folks very happy. It's my opinion that this still does not accurately address the issue of what the real percentage is of units that are having problems.

I am disappointed in the article purely because the author is making pretty big assumptions about scope.

If all of the "noise" that's being created helps to motivate D* to address the problems that some users are having, then I suppose it's worth the assumptions that people are making.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

LI-SVT said:


> I wonder if enough people at a high level within D* realy understand the dilema the HR20 has put them in. ....... but is the company as a whole moving on?


The HR20 didn't put them in the dilema, Rupert Murdoch did. The HR20 is just the result.

As for moving on, RM called D* a Turd Bird and traded it to John Malone So the one person that is repsonsible for this mess has done an "Elvis" and has left the building.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

brittonx said:


> It still does not accurately address the issue of what the real percentage is of units that are having problems.


Only D* would have a real handle on that based on tech support reports and that could be sketchy as well.

We may not know the number, but D* thinks it is a significant enough number of subs who are having issues to release as many updates as they have.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

brewer4 said:


> ...its like a beatiful new girlfriend that you dont know that well. On the surface, what a knock out. The sex is great. But in truth, she is cheating on you with your best friend, stealing money from your wallet and is puke bag away from being committed to a hospital for anorexia. But the sex, its too damn good so you overlook the other things.


I think I actually dated her -- you too?


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## dogface (Sep 16, 2006)

Excellent article. I experienced a lot of what he described when I got mine back in September. I will say that mine has gotten significantly better with the updates. Once again excellent article.


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## brewer4 (Aug 19, 2006)

Nick said:


> I think actually dated her -- you too?


Yep I dated her. It was like living in the clouds while being punched in the gut.


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## greenwave (Oct 23, 2006)

The only part of this article I take issue with is the suggestion that the Tivo-based D* DVRs were reliable. It was because my HR10-250 COULD NOT reliably receive the Atlanta locals OTA, despite that I am no more than a mile from any of the major network towers, that decided to move to the HR20. (And coincidentally, the HR10-250, which was moved upstairs to our bedroom with only a SD tv, froze and locked up last night requiring a power disconnect and restart. And my previous SD D* Tivo died a slow death over the last year only 2+ years into service.)

Yesterday at a lunch with co-workers I asked several of them using the local cable provider here in Atlanta whether they were pleased with the performance of the cable company's HD DVR. Uniformly they said "no"; and all reported that their units failed to work properly with frequency (missed recordings; dropped signals; lock ups, etc.).

I guess my point is that some unreliability appears to be endemic to sophisticated consumer electronics, including the so-called stable DVRs on the market, and the HR20 shouldn't be held to a higher standard. All of you gadget freaks out there know and understand that new technology comes with hiccups. This isn't an apology for D*, because I am as frustrated as the next guy, but it is patently unfair to single out the HR20 as the paradigm of unreliable consumer electronics, particularly when you are comparing it in the same breath to the D* Tivo-based products. None are perfect. But even with the flaws, your lifestyle is better with them.


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

Nick said:


> Finally, perhaps disgruntled D* subs should take a serious look at that great offer from DishNetwork for new
> HD subscribers -- not only a FREE HD DVR that actually works as advertised, but 30 already existing
> national HD channels awaiting your HD viewing pleasure.


is this true? Dish's HD DVR actually works well? Or just that hope springs eternal and the grass is always greener? Seriously, if it works as you describe I'm willing to end my 10 year relationship with DTV over the HR20.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

brittonx said:


> If all of the "noise" that's being created helps to motivate D* to address the problems that some users are having, then I suppose it's worth the assumptions that people are making.


What makes you think that they are NOT motivated to get the problem resolved?


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## mssturgeon (Dec 8, 2004)

Nick said:


> Finally, perhaps disgruntled D* subs should take a serious look at that great offer from DishNetwork for new HD subscribers -- not only a FREE HD DVR that actually works as advertised, but 30 already existing national HD channels awaiting your HD viewing pleasure.


Just as a follow-up to Nick's post: the Free HD DVR offer begins February 1st, 2007:
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/news/2007/01/dish_network_offers_free_high_definition_dvr-save.php

Enjoy,

- Shane Sturgeon


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

On the flip side to that.

Isn't that for the "old" model... that Dish Network announced would be replaced this year? And then later on, described some of the new features that would be in the new model?

If you are thinking about switching (which is your right as a consumer).
Be sure to know the "shade" of green that is on the other side of fence 

As with any switch like that... do your homework.
And that goes for any switch... not just DirecTV->Dish Dish->DirecTV, SAT->Cable, ect...


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What makes you think that they are NOT motivated to get the problem resolved?


I for one have never doubted that D* is highly motivated to resolve the HR20 problems. It's a critical part of their strategy.

In my darker moments I may doubt their _ability _to do so. 

But if Dish has a working full-featured HD DVR, given their woeful history in that area, then I have to believe that D* will get there at some point. Hopefully ASAP!


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> If you are thinking about switching (which is your right as a consumer).
> Be sure to know the "shade" of green that is on the other side of fence
> 
> As with any switch like that... do your homework.
> And that goes for any switch... not just DirecTV->Dish Dish->DirecTV, SAT->Cable, ect...


Agreed 100%. Even FIOS, held out as some sort of digital nirvana by some, has its own set of hardware/install/service issues.


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## elas123 (Dec 6, 2006)

i agree with you Earl that they are working hard to get it right but, (i have no personal experience in this area but read on it) doesnt the r15 and h20 still have alot of problems that they havent fixed? i have read alot of stuff in the forums about ppl complaining directv wont fix this and wont fix that. are they going to get to the point were they say. this is the best it gets?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Each product line.. has it's own issues... and it's own symantics into getting it fixed. 

All of their current products:

D10 (all the models)
D11 (all the models)
D12 (there is only one)

H20-100 and H20-600
R15-100 ; -300; -500
HR20

All of these are active receivers, that DirecTV is working to improve... 
Some have taken a LONG time... but they are not abandoned products...


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## iceman2a (Dec 30, 2005)

Great article! He nailed it!
Now, being on the "give D* pass" side, and not having a major amount of problems, I'm running out of patiance!

D* may be motivated to fix the HR20, but at this point I don't think they are capable of fixing it!


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## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

Wow, great cumulative read...maybe this will put an end to the camp of "check your connections" people.

I think that article speaks to 95% of HR20 people (problems or not)...

I have to agree, I actually prefer the HR20 over my TIVO now, your just able to do things quicker. The HR20 is the best option, but man, it could be so much more...

Either way this shakes out, D* is going to be fine....the NFL Sunday Ticket is going nowhere and if they can deliver even half of their HD promises, they can continue to get away with the buggy HR20, as no one will be able to match their programming offerings.


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## tedb3rd (Feb 2, 2006)

nikwax said:


> is this true? Dish's HD DVR actually works well? Or just that hope springs eternal and the grass is always greener? Seriously, if it works as you describe I'm willing to end my 10 year relationship with DTV over the HR20.


Not so fast.... I'm a Dish customer since about '97 and I'm waiting for this HR20 hardware stuff to settle down before I switch back to Direct. Dish has more HD channels, yes, but the Voom channels are worthless unless you want to watch people mountain biking 24/7 (Rush HD), kung fu movies (kungfu and world cinema sometimes), bulemics walking the fashion stage (can't remember the name of the channel--just removed it from the guide completely), etc., etc. Direct, as far as I'm concerned, has all the HD channels worth paying for (except for NationalGeoHD). Also, Dish has all these [email protected]#$ fees for everything... movie packages are more expensive too.

If you're going to switch, that's your choice. I have the Vip622 and it has only occasional problems. But Dish's prices are very high because they seem to have gone for quantity (as opposed to quality) of their channels. My sub to Dish is going to be $120/month for my eqipment and for the channels I watch. Over at Direct, it comes out to about $85 (regular $ after 1 year, after the year of freebie stuff and incentive for new customers).. That's about $420/year.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I for one have never doubted that D* is highly motivated to resolve the HR20 problems. It's a critical part of their strategy.
> 
> In my darker moments I may doubt their _ability _to do so.


My concern is not their motivation or even ability. It is uncertainty. For years D* was stalled with the possible merger with E* then the NewsCorp takeover and now the Liberty takeover.

No matter what they will say publicly, there is going to be uncertainly. Employees are going to worry about their jobs, execs are going to make decisions that make them look good today and may not be in the best interests of D*, and certainly not the subs.

Then you have all the "return to TiVo" speculation whether accurate or not. The engineers and managers don't live in a vaccum. They read and hear the same things we do.

OTOH, the "return to TiVo" speculation may make them work harder to get it right before Liberty actually takes over so they can say "see what we can do".


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Nick said:


> Several comments:
> 
> As a former E* AAEP+HD sub, I survived the infamous Dishplayer debacle relatively unscathed, but others
> were not so lucky. Dan Collins got so incensed with the product that he even tried to initiate a class-action
> ...


 That was a question I had had about the DVRs that the cable companies are putting out. Are they better than the HR20? DO they have the same features? Are they reliable? We have Cablevision where I am and one of the things that made me stay with D* when I got HD in November was the fact that I had "heard" the DVRs that CV had didn't have half the features of the D*Tivo or the HR20 and were not that reliable. But I'm beginning to believe that maybe I made a mistake by not jumping ship. I actually LIKE some of the features on the HR20 and only really miss the dual tuners, but the problem is, it doesn't do ANY of the three things a DVR should do reliably. Alllow us to watch live TV, Allow us to record shows and allow us to watch recorded shows.

As for the 100 or so channels D* is promising. They had BETTER make good on this promise as this is their HUGE advertising campaign going on now. If they don't, they will wind up with lost subscribers and potentially a class action liable suit. They really put themselves out there now with this campaign. So, I'm thinking, if they are going this far, they must really mean it this time.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

lamontcranston said:


> Of course I'd love something that had more "truthiness" but this is consistent with what's been said over and over - everyone who matters understands how important this product is.


It really needs to get out to the publications that matter. Let the NY Times write an artticle in their Tech section disparaging it. Or the WSJ. Let some TV folks start bashing it. Then when it affects the bottom line (i.e. subscribers lost) they will be forced to take some serious action to quell the fears. I don't pretend to know how many resources they have working on these issues, but if it's like most big businesses, unless it impacts the bottom line and the bigwigs allocate the $$ to really fix it, we'll continue to get fixes that are more like bandaids on a gunshot wound.

It this is truly the flagship, I'd have every available resource working on fixing bugs and not worry about adding features. Get the three basic functions working flawlessly and then worry about the rest later.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Steveknj said:


> It this is truly the flagship, I'd have every available resource working on fixing bugs and not worry about adding features. Get the three basic functions working flawlessly and then worry about the rest later.


That is exactly what they are doing.
Since they enabled the long awaited OTA... and worked on for a long time ViiV... that is EXACTLY what they are doing now.

You will not see any new significant features, until the unit is stable and doing what it is supposed to.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

greenwave said:


> I guess my point is that some unreliability appears to be endemic to sophisticated consumer electronics, including the so-called stable DVRs on the market, and the HR20 shouldn't be held to a higher standard.


Why shouldn't the HR20 be held to a high standard?

1. DirecTV spokespersons have been assuring us that it is just short of flawless.

2. DirecTV has been in the DVR business as long as anyone.

3. The direct competition has plenty of inventory on a unit that has been available longer, was introduced with all of its toes and most of its fingers and more or less works as one would expect a DVR to work.

Should HR20 users feel placated by the undocumented eSATA and media client features that don't add up to a reliable DVR?


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> That is exactly what they are doing.
> Since they enabled the long awaited OTA... and worked on for a long time ViiV... that is EXACTLY what they are doing now.
> 
> You will not see any new significant features, until the unit is stable and doing what it is supposed to.


That's fantastic news. Have at it D*. The HR20 has the potential to be a great box. There's so much to like. I only wish that they put their energies into fixing the bugs before the new features already introduced, but I know for things like OTA, people were screaming just as loud.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

harsh said:


> Why shouldn't the HR20 be held to a high standard?
> 
> 1. DirecTV spokespersons have been assuring us that it is just short of flawless.
> 
> ...


I think we held the HR20 to a high standard because they were replacing a box that we all generally loved and was basically reliable and worked. I never had the HD Tivo box, but my SD Tivos over the years worked 99.5% of the time flawlessly. SO when you try and UPGRADE and it doesn't work as well as the DOWNGRADE, you are naturally disappointed. If the HR20 was replacing and even buggier DVR, then we'd probably be seeing the improvements rather than the bugs.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> and worked on for a long time ViiV....


I have to say I have a small issue with that. ViiV is not a core DVR feature. Yes, its a nice bell to ring, but the time they allocated to that could have been put to better use making the unit stable.

And while I want DLB's as much as anyone, I don't want them at the expense of stability.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> If the HR20 was replacing and even buggier DVR, then we'd probably be seeing the improvements rather than the bugs.


The E* model.:lol:


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## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

But to be fair and has often been repeated the number of people HAVING issues is a small subset of the actual number of HR20's out there. Their vocality here notwithstanding. If I had not known about dbstalk.com and I had gotten an HR20 and had the issues that many are reporting here I would have searched out on the internet for others with ideas on how to fix it. Fortunatly I have been aware of dbstalk.com for many years and even more fortunately i have two hr20's which have been functioning with almost no problems since I got them. The only thing I take umbrage to regarding this article is that it is written from a person with a lets say, LESS than positive, attitude regarding the HR20 from the start. It mentions in passing that there are a few people out there who are happy with their HR20's.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

brittonx said:


> This is going to make all of the "POS" folks very happy. It's my opinion that this still does not accurately address the issue of what the real percentage is of units that are having problems.
> 
> I am disappointed in the article purely because the author is making pretty big assumptions about scope.
> 
> If all of the "noise" that's being created helps to motivate D* to address the problems that some users are having, then I suppose it's worth the assumptions that people are making.


First of all - this guy that wrote the article is not un-biased at all. Before he was banned at this site he was a notorious slammer of the HR20. Reading his bio at the bottom of the linked article, it is hard to imagine a person who had a habit of vicious name-calling and slamming of members that took a different position than him that he is any any way involved in Human Resources.

He is certainly entitled to his view, but to not realize it is slanted due to his own bias would be a big mistake. He was directly asked here where he gets his % of dissatisfied users from and had NO ANSWER.

I take his writing as just what it is - HIS OPINION ONLY.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> I have to say I have a small issue with that. ViiV is not a core DVR feature. Yes, its a nice bell to ring, but the time they allocated to that could have been put to better use making the unit stable.
> 
> And while I want DLB's as much as anyone, I don't want them at the expense of stability.


Exactly!!


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> The E* model.:lol:


But most users of the HR20 have not had experience with the E* model, but many of us have had D* Tivos which this is the replacement for.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Isn't that for the "old" model... that Dish Network announced would be replaced this year?


Dish offers exactly one HD DVR (ViP622) and one HD receiver (ViP211). Both are MPEG4 capable and both have fully functioning ATSC tuners that scan for available channels. You don't have to wait for FTM to get a single cable solution on the Dish side of the fence; their single cable solution, DishPro Plus, was implemented in their first dual tuner DVRs.


> And then later on, described some of the new features that would be in the new model?


If I'm reading the Dish forums correctly, they're talking about a two room version of the ViP211 HD receiver (ViP222). From the CES Q&A, the Dish representatives spoke of a possible dual OTA tuner ViP622 and maybe a new two room HD DVR.

As for "old" technology, how many HR10 users would have been completely content with an MPEG4 upgrade versus going to the HR20?


> As with any switch like that... do your homework.
> And that goes for any switch... not just DirecTV->Dish Dish->DirecTV, SAT->Cable, ect...


I agree heartily with this. Investigate all avenues (except maybe the Blockbuster/Netflix route). There are at least two pastures on the other side of everyone's fence.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

spolaski said:


> I take from the writing style and opinions expressed that the author of the article, Tom Starner, is the same person as tstarn, a prolific poster that is listed now as a "banned user". What gives?


I caught this also. I don't see how anyone here can view him as un-biased in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

His article is his opinion only, NO MORE, NO LESS, and should be read as just that.

Having the forum to publish info doesn't guarantee its accuracy and this is living proof.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

sorahl said:


> But to be fair and has often been repeated the number of people HAVING issues is a small subset of the actual number of HR20's out there. Their vocality here notwithstanding. If I had not known about dbstalk.com and I had gotten an HR20 and had the issues that many are reporting here I would have searched out on the internet for others with ideas on how to fix it. Fortunatly I have been aware of dbstalk.com for many years and even more fortunately i have two hr20's which have been functioning with almost no problems since I got them. The only thing I take umbrage to regarding this article is that it is written from a person with a lets say, LESS than positive, attitude regarding the HR20 from the start. It mentions in passing that there are a few people out there who are happy with their HR20's.


How do you know it's a small percentage? Seems like a high percentage of HR20 users on THIS forum have had bugs. I'll bet D* has gotten a lot of calls too. Just because you have 2 in good working order don't assume that most do.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

harsh said:


> Investigate all avenues (except maybe the Blockbuster/Netflix route). There are at least two pastures on the other side of everyone's fence.


Agreeded. So make sure to review all the comments and problems about the 622 in the http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=107 forum. I bet you can find a good number of folks over there that think that box is a POS also.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Steveknj said:


> How do you know it's a small percentage? Seems like a high percentage of HR20 users on THIS forum have had bugs. I'll bet D* has gotten a lot of calls too. Just because you have 2 in good working order don't assume that most do.


I doubt that we'll ever know what percentage of folks have or haven't had any problems. The old ROT is that folks with problems will b*tch while the ones without won't say anything.

I have also have two HR20's and yes, I've had a couple of BSD's and a couple program recordings missed/messed up, and I've had both since back in September.


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## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

Because most people don't spend their time posting on forums like we do  They actually do other things. For us to assume that WE here at dbstalk.com are a statistical representation of the country is egregiously arrogant. IF this was the true representation there would be more reputable people than tstarn writing in reputable print news outlets speaking on this.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

RAD said:


> Agreeded. So make sure to review all the comments and problems about the 622 in the http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=107 forum. I bet you can find a good number of folks over there that think that box is a POS also.


Either the Dish Network subscribers are better communicators (doubtful) or they are having a generally better experience if you use post counts as a gauge. The ViP622 problems thread has just over 220 posts. The HR20 0x10b thread has well over 600 posts.

I'm pretty sure that with both the ViP622 and HR20, there are quite a few defective units out there. A defective unit can make an otherwise happy experience pretty miserable. There's just too many shared problems with the HR20 to attribute it all to defective machines.


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## Strejcek (Sep 28, 2006)

Agreed, great article. I am in the minority of users that have not had any major problems with the HR20. Has not yet missed one recording since day one. I have only had one BSD and have only had to RBR twice. Other than that I have been very lucky, or so it seems.

I truly feel badly for the many that are having significiant problems with the HR20. All I can say is hang in there. If DTV gets this product working correctly, it will be a great piece of equipment.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

harsh said:


> Either the Dish Network subscribers are better communicators (doubtful) or they are having a generally better experience if you use post counts as a gauge. The ViP622 problems thread has just over 220 posts. The HR20 0x10b thread has well over 600 posts.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that with both the ViP622 and HR20, there are quite a few defective units out there. A defective unit can make an otherwise happy experience pretty miserable. There's just too many shared problems with the HR20 to attribute it all to defective machines.


Do note the ViP 622 has been out nearly a year. I would hope the problems with the unit would be small and minor by now.


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## mssturgeon (Dec 8, 2004)

sorahl said:


> But to be fair and has often been repeated the number of people HAVING issues is a small subset of the actual number of HR20's out there. Their vocality here notwithstanding.


Let's also not forget that the number of people vocal about a particular issue or problem are traditionally only a small subset of those actually experiencing that issue. A hard thing to quantify or prove in this case, but something to be mindful of.

- Shane


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## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

Shane, Absolutely agree. it's the flip side of my argument and no less true.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

harsh said:


> Either the Dish Network subscribers are better communicators (doubtful) or they are having a generally better experience if you use post counts as a gauge. The ViP622 problems thread has just over 220 posts. The HR20 0x10b thread has well over 600 posts.


Or E* fixed all the problems identified in the 921 and 942 when they came out with the 622. The HR20 is a box built from scratch, so maybe a better comparison would be to look at all the bug reports from all three of the E* HD DVR's? Since your profile shows you as a E* customer with a 921, did you get that STB when it first came out and if yes, how did that run? Does the HR20 has some issues, yep, but IMHO I don't think it's as bad as a number of people are making out. It's sure one site better then the E* 811 that I had, now that was and is a real POS.


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## mssturgeon (Dec 8, 2004)

I think the take-away from the article should be this:

Regardless of author bias (present or not), I see no disservice done by this article. If you are not having problems, congratulations! But that fact does little to convince those who are having problems that they should be happy. And if this article helps even one person get their box working better, that's progress.

- Shane


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

mssturgeon said:


> I think the take-away from the article should be this:
> 
> Regardless of author bias (present or not), I see no disservice done by this article. If you are not having problems, congratulations! But that fact does little to convince those who are having problems that they should be happy. And if this article helps even one person get their box working better, that's progress.
> 
> - Shane


Hey - it's America, freedom of speech. My point is that a Republican shouldn't be positioned as a Democrat, a liberal shouldn't be positioned as a conservatice, etc. If you read some of the first posts in this thread he is being positioned as UNBIASED. That is FAR from the truth, and like I said, he is entitled to speak, but its OPINION only.

Has nothing to do with what side you're on. Has to do with things/people are what they are.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ScoBuck said:


> I caught this also. I don't see how anyone here can view him as un-biased in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
> 
> His article is his opinion only, NO MORE, NO LESS, and should be read as just that.
> 
> Having the forum to publish info doesn't guarantee its accuracy and this is living proof.


Was there anything in the article you disagreed with? Regardless of the author?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Do note the ViP 622 has been out nearly a year. I would hope the problems with the unit would be small and minor by now.


The R15 has been out for 14 months. Oh, that's right. It's a SD DVR so that doesn't count.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> The R15 has been out for 14 months. Oh, that's right. It's a SD DVR so that doesn't count.


I think the R15 is in it's own alternate universe. :grin:


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I'll tell ya. The R20 will come out before the R15 is fixed.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Hey - it's America, freedom of speech. My point is that a Republican shouldn't be positioned as a Democrat, a liberal shouldn't be positioned as a conservatice, etc. If you read some of the first posts in this thread he is being positioned as UNBIASED. That is FAR from the truth, and like I said, he is entitled to speak, but its OPINION only.
> 
> Has nothing to do with what side you're on. Has to do with things/people are what they are.


Guess I feel compelled to defend myself here, since you somehow believe you have a lock on the truth when it comes to this this issue. Obviously, by saying my piece (and my view) is "far from the truth," you must be claiming to know where the truth lies, which on its face is a ridiculous assertion. What's your truth? That a teeny, weeny number of Directv customers are whining about getting a bad box, and most Directv subs are sitting home, recording and playing away, not suffering even a minor glitch in their HR20 use? And the former group should just shut up, stop complaining, and live with it. After all, they are a small minority (you know that for a fact, right?, so who cares anyway?

First of all, journalism since Ben Franklin first published has consistently tried to define objectivity and determine bias in a piece of writing, and it's always been a matter of debate whether or not ANY article can truly be unbiased. Fact is, it's almost impossible to be perfectly objective, unless you are conducting a scientific experiment, and even those can fall victim to bias. So that's a red herring, plain and simple. Any newspaper, magazine or other piece of printed material that contains journalistic writing has a bias, it's unavoidable. That's why we have Fox News and CNN, or MSNBC. They all purport to be journalists, but none can prove they are objective (though they might claim to be). Some call the New York Times liberal, others say the Wall Street Journal is conservative. So what? Doesn't mean you can't get worthwhile information from either.

And your confusing analogies aside, my initial negative posts about the HR20 came strictly from my experience in using the machine way back in September, and nothing more. Prior to that event, I had never lodged a single complaint of a serious nature with Directv, and was perfectly happy using their equipment, etc. So I had no "bias" against them one way or the other, and in fact, have been a major proponent of Directv until the HR20 happened.

When I embarked on writing this piece, my main objective was to try and characterize/delineate the state of events at DBSTalk so far, and lay them out in some sort of logical fashion. I will agree with you on this. My conclusion, that Directv blew it this time, is "biased," but that's not really the right word for it. My view/position is based on my experience and the experience of ... how many? dozens, hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands? you seem to know the truth, may be you can fill in that number. Simple as that. You are certainly welcome to state your view, which is that your HR20 works to perfection, and you're thrilled to death with it. Good for you.

I'm not really sure anyone (certainly not me) said I was an unbiased observer anyway. It's your main point, but it's really out of thin air. Nobody has described the article as an unbiased look at the situation. I tried to represent most points of view, but no one is perfect. I guess if you bother to read the piece in detail, you will see that I actually say I like the HR20, and would be fine with MINE if it worked. Seems like others, again, an unknown number, feel the same. This wasn't about Tivo vs. HR20, or any of that subjective debate.

So I'm sorry you have gotten yourself in such a lather over the issue of me being biased, when no one even said I was unbiased. In fact, I did say, right from the start, that I felt Directv clearly has made a mess of this launch for an unspecified number of subs. Could be a lot, could be a little. I did ask their spokesman to supply some specifics, but he ignored my question. Believe me, if the number of problem HR20s was a teeny, weeny proportion, Directv would be tripping over itself to release data on it (if they could indeed collect it).

As I pointed out, and so have others (including Earl), the HR20 has problems, and Directv is trying, so far with limited success, to fix those problems for the people experiencing them.

Maybe you should reread the piece, and try to understand it better, since you have seemingly missed the point.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

I think this is a very fair and reasonable article, it's good to see reporting like this. 

I am one of the lucky ones who has virtually no issues with the HR20, I have had an HR20 since just after they were available and certainly for the last few months have had no missed recordings, no lockups, just about no problems at all - and yet there are many people who have had nothing but problems with their HR20.

As someone who has managed many software development teams, the HR20 has all the signs to me of a product that was rushed to market before it was ready. Unfortunately this is not unusual. Pressures from sales and marketing nearly always overcome the protests by the development team. I think what makes it worse is that I am not convinced the approach to testing is well thought out in the first place. Some of the problems were so obvious it did not seem any testing at all had been done. The currect approach of "release candidates" is a substitute for proper beta testing but is at least getting the DirecTV team real and speedy feedback on the new releases.

I think there are two other big issues that contribute to the problem.
First, many very poor installations. Misaligned dishes, incorrect multiswitches, use of splitters (!!!!), all sorts of problems.
Second, CSRs who have no understanding of the HR20 (or the H20), the 5-lnb dish, multiswitches, MPEG-4 and all the pieces that make up this product and service. All of us who post on this and other forums have seen far too many "the CSR said no-one has ever reported this problem before" comments, when forums like this were full of posts describing the same issue. Much of the information given by CSRs is just WRONG. All this does is increase the number of calls and increase the frustration everyone feels. And I hate to think how many HR20s have been replaced (and at what expense to DirecTV) when the problems were obviously software and getting a new box could not possibly have solved the problem (including HDMI issues).

Maybe the issue is that DirecTV is still trying to test and support these products as if they were hardware when they are basically software products. Any good software company has a "knowledge base" which contains all the reports of issues with the software, and allows someone to at least see if the problem has been reported before.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

I know this isn't on topic, forgive me. 

But.....Did anyone know tstarn was this same free lance writer weeks ago?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> First of all - this guy that wrote the article is not un-biased at all. Before he was banned at this site he was a notorious slammer of the HR20. Reading his bio at the bottom of the linked article, it is hard to imagine a person who had a habit of vicious name-calling and slamming of members that took a different position than him that he is any any way involved in Human Resources.
> 
> He is certainly entitled to his view, but to not realize it is slanted due to his own bias would be a big mistake. He was directly asked here where he gets his % of dissatisfied users from and had NO ANSWER.
> 
> I take his writing as just what it is - HIS OPINION ONLY.


Couldn't let this one go. No one has ever directly asked me where I got my percentage of dissatisfied users, so I'm not sure where you came up with that idea? I did mention in the piece that the number could conservatively be 10-15 percent of HR20 users, which seems small, but represents an unacceptable number for everyone, including Directv.

I did, however, ask the head of PR at Directv for some stats on that same issue, and he ignored my request with his emailed statement (you can read it in the story on HDTVMagazine.com). I didn't really expect an answer, to be honest, but if Directv had some way to prove it was a very small percentage, those numbers would have been leaked/disseminated a long time ago. All they said back in November on CNET was that a "vast majority" of their customers were happy with it. That's a very non-specific number, no? If it's so vast, why no specifics?

And your point that my habit of "vicious name-calling" should preclude me from writing about human resources is silly. The times I turned to name-calling (though I didn't realize it was so vicious) was not because someone disagreed with my view of the HR20. In fact, that is patently untrue.

No, my name-flinging was a way of "returning fire" to a small, specific number of posters on DBSTalk who persisted in unfairly labeling people (whiners, complainers), belittling people having problems, and otherwise earning the right to be labeled by a name or description that certainly matched their obnoxious behavior. Calling someone a name or labeling someone isn't productive, to be sure, but it's hard to resist when the other person is the first to engage in that sort of behavior. I'm sure you never have "called anyone a name" in your life, right? If so, I admire your civility, sir.

Looking ahead, no more name-calling/labeling. I will take Earl's advice and put anyone who irritates me on my ignore list. Of course, you are more than welcomed to put me on yours. In fact, I encourage it. Your blood pressure will no doubt go down.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I know this isn't on topic, forgive me.
> 
> But.....Did anyone know tstarn was this same free lance writer weeks ago?


Earl certainly knew it, since I had two pieces published on tvpredictions.com, one about the HR20, and the other about "men, women and HD." But what does that matter? It's irrelevant, no?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

RAD said:


> Since your profile shows you as a E* customer with a 921, did you get that STB when it first came out and if yes, how did that run?


I got into the 921 late in the game when they were blowing them out with a Dish branded 34" HD CRT for $1000 (purchase). At the time that I purchased, I could have opted for the 942. The 921's hard drive died about a month ago and the receiver was replaced with a refurbished 921. There has been some stumbling on provisioning issues related to the guide and maybe three missed recordings in 27 months (with a _very_ light recording load).

I would say that the nastiest of issues took about four revisions to fix and it took so long because Dish was having to work overtime to deny us free guide information for locals (something that DirecTV doesn't charge for). It actually bore some similarity to the current state of the HR20 OTA situation.

I followed the progression of the HD DVRs from Comcast, DirecTV and Dish Network, but I wasn't willing to settle for the dearth of HD programming from C* or D*. Like the HR10, the 921 lacks MPEG4 capability and I'll be having to upgrade soon. Can I wait until October? Probably. Will the HR20 be fixed by then? Hopefully. Will I continue to monitor the offerings from Comcast, DirecTV and Dish? Your darn tootin'. Will I switch to Comcast just to get their perversion of TiVo? No way.

Having re-read the webzine article, I have the feeling that it was more than a little slanted. Many things that needed to be said were said, but it wasn't as balanced as it could have been. The subject of the article was supported, but perhaps at the expense of the full picture.

I'm of the opinion that too many people are having too many problems with the HR20 and it's release was premature. I probably would have made more of an issue of the alpha test stage of development and how DirecTV hasn't left any options for those who don't want to be responsible for testing an unfinished product at the expense of their viewing experience.

While there may be a hint of truth to it, I think it was pretty crass to refer to DBSTalk as the de-facto *****in' post and bug report forum for the HR20.


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Guess I feel compelled to defend myself here, since you somehow believe you have a lock on the truth when it comes to this this issue. Obviously, by saying my piece (and my view) is "far from the truth," you must be claiming to know where the truth lies, which on its face is a ridiculous assertion. What's your truth? That a teeny, weeny number of Directv customers are whining about getting a bad box, and most Directv subs are sitting home, recording and playing away, not suffering even a minor glitch in their HR20 use? And that they should just shut up, stop complaining, and live with it. After all, they are a small minority (you know that for a fact, right?, so who cares anyway?
> 
> First of all, journalism since Ben Franklin first published has consistently tried to define objectivity and determine bias in a piece of writing, and it's always been a matter of debate whether or not ANY article can truly be unbiased. Fact is, it's almost impossible to be perfectly objective, unless you are conducting a scientific experiment, and even those can fall victim to bias. So that's a red herring, plain and simple. Any newspaper, magazine or other piece of printed material that contains journalistic writing has a bias, it's unavoidable. That's why we have Fox News and CNN, or MSNBC. They all purport to be journalists, but none can prove they are objective (though they might claim to be). Some call the New York Times liberal, others say the Wall Street Journal is conservative. So what? Doesn't mean you can't get worthwhile information from either.
> 
> ...


As a former member of the media, I just want to say that you are dead-on! It is amazing how some people want to say "it's from a biased source. You can't listen to it". 
When you look at the comments, consider this:
-- I was a sportswriter and considered by some to be a big Red Sox fan and a Yankee hater. I was the biggest Yankees' fan on the staff.
-- I hear about the "liberal" media all of the time. Roughly 3/4 of the people I worked with were conservative Republicans.
-- Your New York Times comment was great. My old boss was the staunchest Republican I've ever known. He thought the best newspaper going was the New York Times. This same boss went on to become president and publisher of USA Today.
Many of these same people who claim you are biased also consider Fox News unbiased.
So don't let people get your feathers ruffled. I thought your article was pretty fair and presented both sides. Enough said! Nice job and thanks!


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tstarn said:


> I did, however, ask the head of PR at Directv for some stats on that same issue, and he ignored my request with his emailed statement (you can read it in the story on HDTVMagazine.com). I didn't really expect an answer, to be honest, but if Directv had some way to prove it was a very small percentage, those numbers would have been leaked/disseminated a long time ago. All they said back in November on CNET was that a "vast majority" of their customers were happy with it. That's a very non-specific number, no? If it's so vast, why no specifics?


In this day and age of near-instant searching of the Internet, you'll find people in high places very hesitant to give information that may some day be taken out of context. The only reason that the car manufacturers report recall numbers is because it is required by law.

As it is, we have to settle for terms like "subtantial", "non-negligible", "majority" and modified versions thereof.

Are people having problems? Yep, no doubt about it.
Is DirecTV understating the scope? Absolutely.
Is it as bad as it looks on ____ Forum? Probably not.
Is it any one of our responsibilities to balance the disinformation? Nah, leave the crusades to Billy Graham.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> I got into the 921 late in the game when they were blowing them out with a Dish branded 34" HD CRT for $1000 (purchase). At the time that I purchased, I could have opted for the 942. The 921's hard drive died about a month ago and the receiver was replaced with a refurbished 921. There has been some stumbling on provisioning issues related to the guide and maybe three missed recordings in 27 months (with a _very_ light recording load).
> 
> I would say that the nastiest of issues took about four revisions to fix and it took so long because Dish was having to work overtime to deny us free guide information for locals (something that DirecTV doesn't charge for). It actually bore some similarity to the current state of the HR20 OTA situation.
> 
> ...


In one breath you say it's got a hint of truth, but in the next breath you call it crass for me to mention it. Why crass? The purpose was to show that Directv hasn't supplied any real avenue, short of the CSR/tech support route, which we all know is fairly worthless. Just seems odd that Directv counts on DBSTalk as its main source of feedback from HR20 users with problems, and doesn't seem to have any official place to go. Crass to say that? If you think so, fine with me.


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## EAGLES20 (Sep 8, 2005)

I have to buy a new router for my Computers in my home. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what would be the best to buy. I have the HR20 and I was told that you can get upgrades to your box through the router if you have it hooked up for it. So my home is wireless and I would just like to get the right one.
Thank You


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tstarn said:


> Earl certainly knew it, since I had two pieces published on tvpredictions.com, one about the HR20, and the other about "men, women and HD." But what does that matter? It's irrelevant, no?


Ooh! Ooh! I knew!

What difference does that make?

As long as nobody claims to be anything more than a pundit, I'm down with it.


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## linuxworks (Dec 27, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> I really need to go home now, and spend some time with my TWO HR20s....


as woody allen used to say "hey, I prefer 3; but its hard enough to get 1"


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

EAGLES20 said:


> I have to buy a new router for my Computers in my home. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what would be the best to buy. I have the HR20 and I was told that you can get upgrades to your box through the router if you have it hooked up for it. So my home is wireless and I would just like to get the right one.


HR20 updates will always come through a satellite feed.

I would recommend going with something that has wired capability as well as wireless because I don't think that the wireless solution is going to be the answer in the long run; especially if they decide to deliver HD VOD content through your network connection.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> In this day and age of near-instant searching of the Internet, you'll find people in high places very hesitant to give information that may some day be taken out of context. The only reason that the car manufacturers report recall numbers is because it is required by law.
> 
> As it is, we have to settle for terms like "subtantial", "non-negligible", "majority" and modified versions thereof.
> 
> ...


Out of context? What is the context? That there are problems, and Directv is the only source for knowing the extent of those problems. That's the context, no? Guess you are right, being honest with your customers is a quaint idea, and who are we to push back at the companies who take our money for services. Better to just let them get it fixed in their own time. relax, let it slide. Is it as bad as it looks on DBSTalk? Not sure (not as sure as you are). Guess we'll never really know, until one of the "reputable" news organizations reports otherwise. This is no crusade, just a person reflecting a situation as he sees it. Nothing more. Some people enjoy butting heads with the powers that be, others just like to sit back and let it happen. Different strokes...


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## deebeeeff (Oct 10, 2006)

brewer4 said:


> The HR20, its like a beatiful new girlfriend that you dont know that well. On the surface, what a knock out. The sex is great. But in truth, she is cheating on you with your best friend, stealing money from your wallet and is puke bag away from being committed to a hospital for anorexia. But the sex, its too damn good so you overlook the other things.


I think of it as a "two-bagger". The HR-20 is so ugly you put a bag on it and then you put a bag on your own head in case its bag falls off.:lol: :lol: That's the kind of women I get, too.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

tstarn said:


> In one breath you say it's got a hint of truth, but in the next breath you call it crass for me to mention it.


I say this because DBSTalk is not the only place to find active discussions and certainly not the most direct way to communicate with DirecTV.

Unless you're citing the results of polls that you've personally crafted on DBSTalk, you're just reporting your impressions of the din. Its okay to make such evaluations, but to cite DBSTalk as the be-all and end-all of what is (or isn't) going on is clearly not okay.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sorahl said:


> Because most people don't spend their time posting on forums like we do  They actually do other things. For us to assume that WE here at dbstalk.com are a statistical representation of the country is egregiously arrogant. IF this was the true representation there would be more reputable people than tstarn writing in reputable print news outlets speaking on this.


I think the editors of HDTVMag are very reputable people, so your comments to the contrary are, in my view, and to use your words, "egregiously arrogant."

As for my reputation, I sleep pretty well at night, considering this is about as rough as it gets, which is to say, not rough at all. Glad to see you have inside knowledge on my being reputable, or not.

And when it comes to actually doing things, I can assure you, I do actually do things, and not just post on DBSTalk.com. My background allows me to crank out these posts in lightspeed time, so I can get on to the other stuff, like hanging out at Head-Fi.com, AVS forum, etc. Just kidding.

Sooner or later, if Directv doesn't get the HR20 working, those "reputable" sources will in fact start reporting on the issue. It's just not on their radar screen yet. For the sake of all the HR20 owners who are staring at black screens and frozen boxes, I really hope that never happens.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

harsh said:


> I say this because DBSTalk is not the only place to find active discussions and certainly not the most direct way to communicate with DirecTV.
> 
> Unless you're citing the results of polls that you've personally crafted on DBSTalk, you're just reporting your impressions of the din. Its okay to make such evaluations, but to cite DBSTalk as the be-all and end-all of what is (or isn't) going on is clearly not okay.


Never conducted a poll. But I have looked at other forums, and this one seems to be the HR20 hotbed compared to the others. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

As for the most direct way to connect with Directv, been there, done that. Tired of getting the same tired non-answers. Just my experience, so I am speaking for myself on that front.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

moonman said:


> According to the article, D* already has responded...Quote: Company spokesman Robert Mercer would only say DIRECTV is continuing to listen to customer feedback and improve the product via software downloads. "This is our workhorse set-top going forward, so we are committed to maximizing its performance," Mercer added via email. He did not respond a request for specific statistical data on problem HR20s, nor to questions about reliability, specific issues, etc.Unquote


I would have preferred him saying that "we are committed to maximizing its stability and reliability". But I guess that would be admitting that it's unstable and unreliable. "Maximizing performance" means to me that you start with something good, like a good, fast race car, and then tuning it to make its performance even better. Not quite the same for the HR20.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Earl certainly knew it, since I had two pieces published on tvpredictions.com, one about the HR20, and the other about "men, women and HD." But what does that matter? It's irrelevant, no?


Well, It doesn't matter to me. I obviously frequent this forum, but I did not know. I just knew of some, lets say friction, on this site about some of your posts. That's all. It really doesn't matter, again not to me anyway. I just found it interesting.


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## anubys (Jan 19, 2006)

what are the chances that the new ownership will turn back to Tivo-based units?


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## Inkeyes (Oct 12, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> It really needs to get out to the publications that matter. Let the NY Times write an artticle in their Tech section disparaging it. Or the WSJ. Let some TV folks start bashing it. Then when it affects the bottom line (i.e. subscribers lost) they will be forced to take some serious action to quell the fears. I don't pretend to know how many resources they have working on these issues, but if it's like most big businesses, unless it impacts the bottom line and the bigwigs allocate the $$ to really fix it, we'll continue to get fixes that are more like bandaids on a gunshot wound.
> 
> It this is truly the flagship, I'd have every available resource working on fixing bugs and not worry about adding features. Get the three basic functions working flawlessly and then worry about the rest later.


This is exactly how I feel. This is a management problem, not a programming problem. They must throw more resources at these issues.

However, I sometimes get the feeling there may have been some critical engineering issue that was missed in this unit, and they may never get it to work reliably.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> I know this isn't on topic, forgive me.
> 
> But.....Did anyone know tstarn was this same free lance writer weeks ago?


Yes.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

anubys said:


> what are the chances that the new ownership will turn back to Tivo-based units?


No one knows, but it's highly unlikely based on other views posted on several threads. Maybe they could offer both the HR20 and a Tivo-based unit, and make everyone happy. But I wouldn't count on it.


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> You will not see any new significant features, until the unit is stable and doing what it is supposed to.


Works for me! That's all I expected from the beginning. Everything else is icing.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

I think the article was great  And feel that he really didn't take any hard shots at D* :nono2: He even paid some compliments on how he liked the HR20, good article all the way around.

I question if D* heads truely believe what they try to sell? Do they really believe that the problems are minimal, or small counts of users are having issues


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## moonman (Oct 27, 2004)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Thanks to moonman for all posting a link to the same article.


------------
I knew it as well, being a sub. to both this forum and HDTV mag. I also was aware of the history as well, which surprised me of the lack of rancor on
the author's part in his article...he certainly had a chance to display it if
he wished...even Earl liked it!!....Now Shane, if you see this, thanks for the
explanation on your database problem, but between the CES updates and
other articles...Your making me crazy!! ..I'm unsubbing as fast as I can!!!:lol:


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

tstarn said:


> The purpose was to show that Directv hasn't supplied any real avenue, short of the CSR/tech support route, which we all know is fairly worthless. Just seems odd that Directv counts on DBSTalk as its main source of feedback from HR20 users with problems, and doesn't seem to have any official place to go.


Exactly what I started a thread about a few weeks ago. If DirecTV is so adamant about getting the HR20 to work correctly why don't they have official representation on this board? Why is their no official way to submit a trouble report to the HR20 engineers? Earl jumped on my thread early on to assure everyone that dbstalk.com was THE place to go to provide feedback to DirecTV.

I also made the point that, although I respect Earl for what he is doing, has done and will probably continue to do, is that he is volunteering to do this and having a volunteer be the upfront person taking the shots for DirecTV is a really poor way for DirecTV to treat it's customers and just shows that they're trying to sidestep any direct responsibility.

As for the article, I don't really care whether it was biased or unbiased, it realistically described my experience with my HR20 and my experience on dbstalk.com, including the jerks who call everyone who has problems whiners, complete with a sarcastic icon.


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

TomF said:


> ......If DirecTV is so adamant about getting the HR20 to work correctly why don't they have official representation on this board?


THis isn't directed towards anyone...but can you imagine how fast a thread (if that's kinda what you're referring too) would go down hill if they had a rep on the site. It would probably get ugly quick and nothing constructive would come of it.

btw, think about the rep. Talk about getting thrown under the bus. lol....


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

tstarn said:


> I think the editors of HDTVMag are very reputable people, so your comments to the contrary are, in my view, and to use your words, "egregiously arrogant."
> 
> As for my reputation, I sleep pretty well at night, considering this is about as rough as it gets, which is to say, not rough at all. Glad to see you have inside knowledge on my being reputable, or not.
> 
> ...


I will say upfront that I am an E* sub, have 2 VIP622s, and did live through the 921 joy - with that out of the way I thought the article was well written and never claimed to be some kind of completely unbiased scientific study - you were upfront about your experiences and that's better than a lot of well known so called "reputable" columnists we all know of.

Now - in the interest of fair and unbiased journalism I think you should go out and spend as much as necessary to get a HD DVR and service from all the main competitors (E* and Cable, FIOS if available) and also invest in identical 60" 1080Plasma displays (hey, you can't tell how good the picture is with a 42" screen!!) for each source so that you can provide everyone with a completely objective comparison, which will in turn be instantly attacked by anyone who disagrees with you!


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

HDTVsportsfan said:


> THis isn't directed towards anyone...but can you imagine how fast a thread (if that's kinda what you're referring too) would go down hill if they had a rep on the site. It would probably get ugly quick and nothing constructive would come of it.
> 
> btw, think about the rep. Talk about getting thrown under the bus. lol....


Funny, I've already seen a lot of threads here go downhill fast, getting ugly quick and nothing constructive coming out of it. 

Having a rep worked for TiVo on the tivocommunity forums. Of course, the mood there was much more upbeat because people actually helped each other solve problems and weren't saddled with a flawed box that DirecTV/TiVo was desperately trying to fix.

As for being thrown under the bus, any responsible company has PR people whose job it is to be the public face for a company, good or bad. DirecTV seems to be ignoring us on that front. Having a couple of DirecTV engineers who are familiar with the HR20 that can actually present their view of the improvement process would go a long way to give DirecTV some credibility. I'm still just absolutely amazed that DirecTV thinks that the best way to communicate with customers who are attempting to use their "flagship product" and giving them ~$100/mo is on an independent public forum with a volunteer front man. Again, I mean no disrespect for Earl, but look at the position that DirecTV has him in. Earl willingly plays that role and tries to be a moderator as well. Why aren't they willing to take the heat directly?


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## HDTVsportsfan (Nov 29, 2005)

TomF said:


> ....... Having a couple of DirecTV engineers who are familiar with the HR20 that can actually present their view of the improvement process would go a long way to give DirecTV some credibility. I'm still just absolutely amazed that DirecTV thinks that the best way to communicate with customers who are attempting to use their "flagship product" and giving them ~$100/mo is on an independent public forum with a volunteer front man. Again, I mean no disrespect for Earl, but look at the position that DirecTV has him in. Earl willingly plays that role and tries to be a moderator as well. Why aren't they willing to take the heat directly?


I admit, It would interesting to see how that work out. And of course to hear there thoughts and comments and some of the issues they are having to work thru. It may not get anything fixed any faster, but none the less still interesting.

But again, I don't think they could say a whole lot that would satisfy some of the members here. Some of them seem to have some serious issues. No matter what comments they make (D*), it would never be the "right" answer or response.

I'll let Earl speak for himself inrefernece to the other piece of your post.


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## Sah (Jul 17, 2006)

I think the article was well written and realistically described what has been going on with the HR20. I think D* ought to thank its lucky stars for NFL Sunday Ticket. If not for ST, we'd have jumped ship shortly after "upgrading" to the HR20. Fourteen software updates since September and still buggy? What an unimpressive flagship product!


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## mssturgeon (Dec 8, 2004)

moonman said:


> Now Shane, if you see this, thanks for the
> explanation on your database problem, but between the CES updates and
> other articles...Your making me crazy!! ..I'm unsubbing as fast as I can!!!:lol:


Hi moonman. Not sure what your handle is on our site, or what database problem you are referring to (it has been a busy week as you can tell). Feel free to email me: shane (at) hdtvmagazine.com to refresh my memory.

Kudos to Tom on the article. I'm glad it has resonated with so many. He also has a weekly sports column he's writing for us. Should anyone care to check it out, here is the latest installment: http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2007/01/hd_sports_weekly_-_january_11th_2007.php

Enjoy,

- Shane


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

TomF said:


> I'm still just absolutely amazed that DirecTV thinks that the best way to communicate with customers who are attempting to use their "flagship product" and giving them ~$100/mo is on an independent public forum with a volunteer front man. Again, I mean no disrespect for Earl, but look at the position that DirecTV has him in. Earl willingly plays that role and tries to be a moderator as well. Why aren't they willing to take the heat directly?


Here is the thing... They didn't ASK me for anything. Seriously.
I was doing this "type" of thing for a long time over at TiVoCommunity...
And at that point... I had no TiVo connections, nor DirecTV connections..

I just tried to help with what I knew from learning.

Then when I moved over to DBSTalk.... for the R15... I was doing the same thing... even before DirecTV got into the picture.... then I became a moderator, as the people here at DBSTalk thought I would be good at it.

Then came in the DirecTV aspect of it... and it has kinda moved to the next level. If I were to put a number on it.. I would say 90-95% of what I write is "me"... doing what what I like to do...

For what ever wacked out crazy reason... I enjoy doing this.
I am just like my late father.... he would help everyone... at sacrifice to himself (be it time, money)... be it with their car, tools, installing something, a ride, what ever....... in my own way... that is what drives me.

If something was to happen... and my contact with DirecTV ended... I would still be here... helping people as much as I could...

I am not an "official" or "unofficial" front man for DirecTV support. I do this to satisfy something in my desire level. My perks... the thanks yous.. They "you saved me".. I am sticking it out because you are here... With out you... I would have tossed it out the window.... that is what makes it worth it.

And the fact that DirecTV does actually monitor the threads... and I am allowed to acknowledge that they do... to me... speaks volumes... as they actually do give to **** about what us techy and above average user think.

I have never been a fan of "formal" representations... why? As once they become "formal", they are not as candid... they always have to be scrubbed.. .and protected... I probably don't have to explain why.

I am very fortunent to be in the position that I am. Right now... I wouldn't trade it... I am going to "adjust" it though and soon......

So, to wrap this "bio" up.... At my root... I am just one of you.
A guy with an HDTV, with an HR20... that wants it to work.

And if me spending 30-40 hours a week up here... in the forum... helps that happen... and also happens to help the next guy/gal... Well that is just a bonus.


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## jcrandall (Jun 18, 2004)

Well spoken Earl. I think EVERYONE here appreciates your efforts and MOST realize the information/relationship D* has with the forum comes from your work.

Keep it up, whether some post or not (I don't often), many many many read your information and find it VERY valuable with this emerging technology product.

The exciting thing - is what lies ahead over the next 6-9 months for the product. Talk about huge potential, it will be big this summer


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

Earl,
I have to say that I truly appreciate your efforts. I always sense level-headedness from you, even if you are a Bears' fan! LOL!!! (My wife is and I'm a Giants' fan). If people could a) post their issues in the appropriate area but also ask for help , not knock people who disagree with them, c) not put down those with issues, and d) speak in a civil manner (no profanities or any other off-colored words), this site would be even better.


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## sorahl (Oct 24, 2002)

Let me echo those words, Earl. Your presence on dbstalk has never been anything but helpful, supportive and informative. I wish the same could be said for everyone who participates. This whole thread is starting give me the same feeling as an issue the board had years ago that ended up in another 'satellite' related site being born.  What's the point of discourse if you just ended getting attacked...


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Thank you for the words...
But this is not about me.... If you want, send me a PM... BUT this thread is not about that...

This about the health discussion/debate about the HR20...
And the article that Tom wrote... that IMHO... Accurately reflected the 4 month history of the HR20 and the forum..

The HR20 is what it is.... but we wall want it to be come what it can be...

So.... The imortal moderator words...

:backtotop


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## brittonx (Dec 26, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What makes you think that they are NOT motivated to get the problem resolved?


Earl,
I'm one of the ones who feels they are actually very motivated to get it right. If you listen to the D* folks at CES this sounds like their "bet the farm" box. Is it currently reliable enough to fill that roll? I'd say certainly not. I haven't had any problems but there are certainly enough issues out there that they need to keep at it (which they are most certainly doing).

I suppose my comment was meant to say that the "noise" should help ensure they keep their eye on the ball.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tstarn said:


> No one knows, but it's highly unlikely based on other views posted on several threads. Maybe they could offer both the HR20 and a Tivo-based unit, and make everyone happy. But I wouldn't count on it.


Bingo!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

anubys said:


> what are the chances that the new ownership will turn back to Tivo-based units?


...what are the chances DTV wants a DVR that works?


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

sorahl said:


> Let me echo those words, Earl. Your presence on dbstalk has never been anything but helpful, supportive and informative. I wish the same could be said for everyone who participates. This whole thread is starting give me the same feeling as an issue the board had years ago that ended up in another 'satellite' related site being born.  What's the point of discourse if you just ended getting attacked...


Your idea of public discourse is to call me disreputable, someone you don't even know (it's in an earlier post, where you responded to my article)? Interesting concept. I'd say you are in the distinct minority in terms of "getting attacked" on this thread. You actually "attacked" first. I merely defended myself from your criticisms, and also let you know that my reputation is, as far as I know, in decent shape. Perfect? No. Decent shape? Yes.

And overall, I'd say this thread has been decent as well.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I think the subject of this thread says it all. It's a debate. No one takes it personal. After all, it's a friggen DVR....opps, it wants to be a friggen DVR. :lol:


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

I think those who frigg their DVR...well they've already talked about her...

Yes, for some reason, Directv actually does care about: 1) their flagship, 2) their customers, and 3) want to make money. Who could figure. 

Imagine if you will (mind you, this is my imaginations, not gospel) a company that had a relationship with a vendor. The relationship went very well for a few years, both companies did very well. But then something started not going well. Maybe the vendor want too much money. Maybe the company wanted changes the vendor wasn't willing to make; changes the company needed to reduce their costs (like by having a consistent UI across multiple platforms...)

So company decides to amicably part ways with vendor and signs an agreement but no longer buys vendors stuff. And company tries to outsource with a sister company as a vendor.

But, well some users here know that didn't work quite as well as anyone would have liked either. So company said, we will own and eat our own dog food. No more outsourcing, we'll get it done.

Time passes, supplies of Vendors product are running short. Then comes the Christmas of HD. This was THE year for HD. Can't order more of Vendor's stuff, assembly lines have been shutdown, agreements couldn't be made in time (not even on the quiet), so company either: loses tons of money and customers by not having a product; or loses some money and some customers _and_ makes some new customers by releasing a product that isn't quite ready (tho company might think its closer than the debate here implies.)

Ooops, company now has a VERY short window to fix. And, I do not imagine this part, company really does want to make _the kickass dvr experience_. Know anyone programmer/geek/hardware person who wants to make "the mediocre, doesn't work, dvr?" Pride and care for the customer means they are working their butts off. Good luck gals and guys.

So I guess we all want the same thing, a darn good DVR, with kickass programming. And some want a more intimate experience with their DVRs, but I'll...um...not go there....

Cheers,
Tom


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## TomF (Sep 20, 2006)

For the record, I am not and have not ever "attacked" Earl for anything. I applaud what he is attempting to do.

My whole point, which I must be unable to articulate, since SOME people seem to be unable to get it, is that DirecTV is doing US, the HR20 customers, a disservice by using a public forum as the "unofficial" way to communicate our problems. And for using Earl, self-sacrificing as he is, as the "unofficial" conduit of information from DirecTV.

I've been in beta test programs with major international corporations. Engineers have come to my house, observed the problems I have had, discussed things with me and replaced test products as they are being improved. In other cases, I have had a direct line to the development engineers to ask questions and provide feedback. All of these products have been more stable and reliable in their beta testing than the HR20 is in its public release. I didn't have to pay for these products while they were in beta test and I didn't have to pay a monthly fee to continue to test these products. And I must do a good job because I've been asked again and again to participate.

That's why I say that DirecTV has been completely irresponsible by not owning up to their mistakes with the HR20 and being straight with customers who are paying them hundreds of dollars a year. They are "hiding" behind this forum and behind Earl so they don't have to do or say anything "official" about the problems. Most of their "official" front line customer contacts, the CSRs, won't admit that there are problems and seem unable to provide a proper response to problems.

I think that DirecTV got in way over their heads with this product and they are not responsible enough to own up to their mistakes. If they are really serious about fixing these problems, they would provide a means to submit a trouble report directly to them, assign a case number to it and provide feedback.

Other companies have made mistakes and publicly owned up to them. They have then opened customer hotlines to deal directly with affected customers. On their websites they have made statements about their problems and provided instructions for recourse. This is the responsible thing to do, instead of hiding their heads in the sand and pretending the problems don't exist.

I'm also not against this forum. I've participated in lots of forums for all sorts of topics and products. I'd love to see this forum be the type of forum for HR20 users like tivocommunity forums is for TiVo owners. But it's not, because there is no other place for frustrated, angry and fed up HR20 customers to go to seek help. I'm very disappointed in DirecTV for thinking that this forum is the only way to remedy problems with the HR20 ("unofficially", that is).


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tibber said:


> I think those who frigg their DVR...well they've already talked about her...
> 
> Yes, for some reason, Directv actually does care about: 1) their flagship, 2) their customers, and 3) want to make money. Who could figure.
> 
> ...


Well, I can speak from experience where we had a small office that did our own programming. It worked fine and met the needs of our clients. We were then purchased by a large, NYSE listed company which also had their own group of programmers. Our internal programmers were laid off and we were forced to use corporate programmers to "save $$$". In fact the charge back rate was more than double the actual hourly rate we paid our internal programmers (which were now looking for jobs). We received absolutely no response from the new, corporate programming group even though they charged us twice as much. We couldn't get anything done, no fixes, no enhancements since the corporate programmers knew nothing about our business and we had no direct management control over them (even though we were all part of the same happy corporate family).

End result was that our clients moved elsewhere. Moved to other companies that could provide the services and quick response we provided at one time. Eventually our entire division was shut down because "we lost the contracts".

Tom, unless you were in those meetings, don't make assumptions. Things can go many different ways.


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## saleen351 (Mar 28, 2006)

I don't agree, this box is no different than buying a car in it's 1st model year, you should have known better and HD and HD dvr's are ahead of the mainstream.


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## HardCoder (Dec 15, 2006)

Nick said:


> I happen to have two of the Scientific-Atlanta 8300HD DVRs from Adelphia (now Comcast) and as a power-user I can report that they are absolutely rock-solid.


I'd rather watch a 13" black and white television with rabbit ears than give Comcast another dime. Actually, I'd rather gnaw my own leg off. That doesn't make my HR-20 and R-15 work any better though.


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## spexet (Jan 12, 2007)

A few comments from a first-time poster and DirecTivo SD user...

1. It seems to me that DirecTV needs to get its priorities in order with the HR20. Are they offering a DVR? A media center extender? A device to "get weather information, lottery results, and horoscopes onscreen"? (That comes from their own website.) Just my opinion, but I think they need to make sure the DVR part of the program is actually working correctly before they try to tackle anything else. 

2. According to the chef Emeril Lagasse: "The customer is not a guinea pig." If the customer is paying, then they deserve to get WORKING product. Playing with all these interim software releases is fine and dandy, but don't charge people money for it.

3. As new management takes over the company, I'd suggest that they examine their long-term business strategy with respect to the HR20. Right now, they're offering a box that is, rightly or wrongly, noted for being unreliable. On top of that, they expect me (the customer) to pay BOTH a large up-front fee AND a rental fee, and I don't even own the box? Fanatics may be willing to go through this, but I suspect that most potential customers will go elsewhere.


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## Knon2000 (Nov 20, 2006)

Sah said:


> I think the article was well written and realistically described what has been going on with the HR20. I think D* ought to thank its lucky stars for NFL Sunday Ticket. If not for ST, we'd have jumped ship shortly after "upgrading" to the HR20. Fourteen software updates since September and still buggy? What an unimpressive flagship product!


NFL Sunday Ticket IS the only reason that we still are with D*.
We have had numerous problems with the HR10's at our house. Luckily we have been relatively trouble free on the HR20, but it still hurts me to spend money on an account that gives me problems just recording a simple show.
I am very happy that they at least seem to be trying to correct the problems that people are experiencing with the "flagship unit", just wish they would be trying to fix the problems with the HR10 with as much aplomb. 
Anyway, NFL Sunday Ticket is the only thing keeping me as a premium subscriber. I have actually considered pulling the plug on the programming, going to the bare minimum, and just keeping one receiver for NFL ST, and switching to Cable, but that thought horrifies me since our cable provider is pretty lame, even compared to D*. Dish is not an option, since they nickel and dime you to death, for comparable packages.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Well, I can speak from experience where we had a small office that did our own programming. It worked fine and met the needs of our clients. We were then purchased by a large, NYSE listed company which also had their own group of programmers. Our internal programmers were laid off and we were forced to use corporate programmers to "save $$$". In fact the charge back rate was more than double the actual hourly rate we paid our internal programmers (which were now looking for jobs). We received absolutely no response from the new, corporate programming group even though they charged us twice as much. We couldn't get anything done, no fixes, no enhancements since the corporate programmers knew nothing about our business and we had no direct management control over them (even though we were all part of the same happy corporate family).
> 
> End result was that our clients moved elsewhere. Moved to other companies that could provide the services and quick response we provided at one time. Eventually our entire division was shut down because "we lost the contracts".
> 
> Tom, unless you were in those meetings, don't make assumptions. Things can go many different ways.


Indeed, they most certainly can. I too have seen the problems you mention. I've seen companies change from insource and outsource and back on a frequency so regular, you can map it on the calendar.

I do not mean to imply: 1) this did happen, you're very right, I don't know; 2) this was the "right" or "wrong" thing to do, only time will give some insight; or 3) that I got it all figured out. I know I left out "the other side" of the stories, which also could make interesting imaginations. But this was just a D* imagination, not Tivos nor NDSs. 

Besides, my posting was already too long, you want me to include all this other stuff too? 

Cheers,
Tom


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## anubys (Jan 19, 2006)

brittonx said:


> Earl,
> I'm one of the ones who feels they are actually very motivated to get it right. If you listen to the D* folks at CES this sounds like their "bet the farm" box.


I totally agree...the problem with bets is: sometimes, you lose!

any competent manager should have a fall-back position...you always hedge your bets with SOMETHING...this is how I interpreted the extension of the Tivo contract a few months ago...I saw it as a way to ward off future litigation as well as an extension of support until they got the HR20 right (that was also a good indication that the HR20 was not on schedule, which we now know is true)...

But, there is also the hope that Tivo is management's fall-back (bet hedging) option in case their bet on the HR20 is a loss...


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## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

I just don't get it based on my experience with this DVR that I have used since Oct. 14, 2006.

Some background:

I have never owned a DVR provious to the HR20, so my perspective is based on this box only.

I don't record alot of programs, maybe two a week and I don't do anything "fancy" with it. All I ask is that it record the program I want so I can watch it later.

So far through all the updates, my HR20 has locked up only twice. Red-button reboot and I'm back in business. It has recorded everything I have asked it to and I have been able to playback with no issues.

It's done all that I have asked it to do.

I don't doubt that there are issues and people have had probems, I personally have not based on the above.

Just my .02.......please don't flame me.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Good post, Tom.



tibber said:


> So company decides to amicably part ways with vendor and signs an agreement but no longer buys vendors stuff. And company tries to outsource with a sister company as a vendor.


Assuming that this would result in a DVR at least as good as that from the previous vendor, and in a timely fashion.

Bad assumption, as it turns out. And users are paying the price, though some lucky ones aren't having problems.


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## perilous (Sep 4, 2006)

sorahl said:


> But to be fair and has often been repeated the number of people HAVING issues is a small subset of the actual number of HR20's out there. Their vocality here notwithstanding. If I had not known about dbstalk.com and I had gotten an HR20 and had the issues that many are reporting here I would have searched out on the internet for others with ideas on how to fix it. Fortunatly I have been aware of dbstalk.com for many years and even more fortunately i have two hr20's which have been functioning with almost no problems since I got them. The only thing I take umbrage to regarding this article is that it is written from a person with a lets say, LESS than positive, attitude regarding the HR20 from the start. It mentions in passing that there are a few people out there who are happy with their HR20's.


AMAZING!!! ANOTHER one whose box is working fine, thinks there are only a "small subset" of people with real issues, and why all the fuss???!!!! Thanks for your enlightening post!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, back to reality....


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Guess I feel compelled to defend myself here, since you somehow believe you have a lock on the truth when it comes to this this issue. Obviously, by saying my piece (and my view) is "far from the truth," you must be claiming to know where the truth lies, which on its face is a ridiculous assertion. is


OBVIOUSLY - you are out of context COMPLETELY. I *NEVER* SAID YOUR PIECE OR VIEW WAS "FAR FROM THE TRUTH". AFTER you re-read, if you don't agree with this statement, please post where I'm wrong about this.

*What I DID say* was, to be presented as UNBIASED (as you were be OTHER posters in this thread) was "FAR FROM THE TRUTH". In fact the rest of your response to me BACKS THAT UP - so thank you.

Also, if you would take the time to read my posts here, *I ALSO SAID you ARE entitled to your OPINION,* I have no problem with your point of view.

But frankly, you were suspended/banned for NASTY language and name calling and talking down to people, that is NOT ACCEPTABLE IMO.


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

perilous said:


> AMAZING!!! ANOTHER one whose box is working fine, thinks there are only a "small subset" of people with real issues, and why all the fuss???!!!! Thanks for your enlightening post!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Now, back to reality....


Were you expecting people to complain "Crap! My HR20 works okay!"? Didn't think so.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> I think this is a very fair and reasonable article, it's good to see reporting like this.
> 
> I am one of the lucky ones who has virtually no issues with the HR20, I have had an HR20 since just after they were available and certainly for the last few months have had no missed recordings, no lockups, just about no problems at all - and yet there are many people who have had nothing but problems with their HR20.
> 
> ...


This is such a perfect response I couldn't just let it go. I'd be curious as to what your setup is that you've had no major errors? I'm thinking part of the problem is that there are SO many different configurations out there that it's virtually impossible for D* to test everything. But, I agree with you, their approach seems lacking and the folks on the front lines simply don't know how to handle this other than to send out a new box. If this is simply a software issue, then the same event, should trigger the same results AS LONG AS the enviroment is exactly the same thing that caused the same exact error. In some cases that's as simple a bug that will happen in all cases. In others, it might be a specific setup that triggers this (OTA being used, HDMI vs. Component, MPEG4 vs. MPEG2, maybe even the brand of TV giving off a certain current which causes bugs. That's why I agree, the D*s approach to not having a public beta until now was wrong, especially for something being created from scartch. There's only so much that can recreated in a lab. In my job, we work with a piece of software that keeps killing a Windows service. The Vendor has NEVER seen it before, but we are a rather large company with an environment that it larger than most of their customers. The Vendor is having a real tough time trying to replicate the error and it's been going on for months now. So my point is, it's HARD to really determine these errors in the lab, but they need to work on figuring out the cause, rather than to keep patching.

Now, about the article and bias...In my case, ALL I have to compare to is my various D* Tivo boxes, from the old Sony T60 S1 box on up to the latest incarnation (HR10?) In the 3-4 years I've had those boxes, I rebooted those boxes maybe 4-5 times for lockups. It never missed a show it was supposed to record, and it played back shows relatively flawlessly. There were the occassional voice dropouts, and pixelation, but I always figured that was more atmospheric than a problem with the box. So, the TiVos gave us VERY high expectations of this box. Am I wrong to have expected that, or should I have looked this as if I'm on the bleeding edge? I'm not sure. I guess similar things will be happening to Microsoft when Vista is released.

I don't have a problem with the HR20s interface, I actually like some things better than TiVo, so you can see I'm rooting for this to work. I think it's just that we all loved the Tivo, a lot of us were upset that D* jettisoned them to create their own box, and that the box doesn't work reliably. But I have faith that by the time we get all these new HD channels, the HR20 will be relatively solid. At least that is my hope.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

My opinion of the HR20 is in a state of flux. I was a real fanboy initially.

But months are flying by, update after update, and large numbers of users are still having significant problems. My small problems are becoming more irritating with the passage of time, and I am becoming concerned that real issues could be around the corner for me.

I never considered "occasional" reboots an issue, until they turned into "daily" reboots. I once would have said "Love the HR20, no problems!" Now, I say "My HR20 works OK, no real issues..." as my anxious voice trails off.

My R15s and H20 still all work great.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> This is such a perfect response I couldn't just let it go. I'd be curious as to what your setup is that you've had no major errors?


I have an H20, an HR20, an HR10 and three regular SD receivers. I never power any of them down. Dish to multiswitch is about 70 feet, multiswitch to receivers about the same. RG-6 throughout. The four cables from my dish go into a WB68 multiswitch and then four of the outputs from the WB68 go into a Terk 5x8. So I have four outputs from the WB68 to drive "new" receivers, and then eight outputs from the Terk to drive "old" receivers. 
This means that I do not rely on my receivers to drive the dish signalling, the Terk 5x8 is driving the voltage/tone signalling through the WB68. I know other people have suggested that at least some of the problems can be placed at the door of the WB68 being unpowered; if you use stacked multiswitches like I have, or a Sonora power locker, this will avoid any of those problems. I have OTA using a CM4228/CM7777 combination through a four-way splitter to my receivers.

I do not have Sunday Ticket although I do have NHL center ice. I have not had a blank screen, a "searching for satellite", missing tuner, a missing recording, or a lockup since at least the beginning of November maybe longer. I am currently running the "Elvis" 0115 download. My HR20 is typically running about 70% full, almost all HD, some of it MPEG-4 and some MPEG-2 OTA.
Oh, and ALL my recordings are setup through the guide, single programs or series linksI never set up a recording using search. I know it has been suggested that some of the problems are associated with using search.

I do see some of the same "inconvenience" bugs everyone else reports - unstable trick play on occasions (particularly at the end of a recording), "pinky", recordings apparently starting late and finishing early (compared with the HR10), one problem with the OTA guide data (which prevents me watching a station I never watch anyway!), audio loss transitioning from stereo to DD5.1 and back when going to/from commercials, series links recording old episodes instead of just first-run, there are probably others but I can't remember them right now.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Was there anything in the article you disagreed with? Regardless of the author?


Wolff - EXTREMELY FAIR QUESTION, and thanks for asking.

Here is what I have a problem with (THESE ARE QUOTES FROM THE ARTICLE): my reply is in RED

I admittedly fall into the DIRECTV detractor camp on this one (and I am an A+ DIRECTV sub, with a high monthly outlay and an 8-year history). Oddly enough, my HR20 is even currently working. For whatever reason (the HD Gods are smiling on me? Dumb luck?), my HR20 has worked for the past month or so after some early, and very irritating, problems.

Ok, so you must agree that there are people that may NOT be experiencing problems I take it. Why the comment abut needing a therapist? That's my problem with your style of attack. My opinion, if a person has had no real problem, why does it disturb you to hear them post it?

And my stance: No one buys (in this case, "leases") a $299 piece of home electronics gear that is clearly advertised as ready for prime time expecting to be a beta tester. A few minor early problems? Sure. But this mess? Not a chance.

As you previously said yours is working, this at this time seems to contradict previous quote. Why in your opinion would many have no or little problem (including yourself) while others report major problems? Is is hardware or software, or maybe user issues also?

Most of the issues have been resolved? Hardly. Remember, that statement was posted on Nov. 3! Of course, there are satisfied subs out there who have fared well with their HR20s, but even if only 15-20 percent are having the recurring reliability problems (downloads notwithstanding), it's still way too many (though my hunch is the number is higher).
Since you say your issues have been resloved, why is it hardly? I would like to know your reasoning why some (including yours) is better, others are not). You also make a bold statement if 'only 15-20%' WHERE DO YOU GET THAT NUMBER? You then say you even think its higher. WHERE DO YOU GET THAT NUMBER? See - this is where I believe your BIAS is in play. My answer is more like Earls - if even 1 doesn't work its not good. But to state a rather LARGE number WITHOUT any backup is wrong IMO

There's little doubt a significant number of subscribers will hit the boiling point (of course, some already have) if the HR20 isn't fixed real soon
Not sure I agree with this - what is a significant number? Hearing the answer to this would let me know if the statement makes sense.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> I have an H20, an HR20, an HR10 and three regular SD receivers. I never power any of them down. Dish to multiswitch is about 70 feet, multiswitch to receivers about the same. RG-6 throughout. The four cables from my dish go into a WB68 multiswitch and then four of the outputs from the WB68 go into a Terk 5x8. So I have four outputs from the WB68 to drive "new" receivers, and then eight outputs from the Terk to drive "old" receivers.
> This means that I do not rely on my receivers to drive the dish signalling, the Terk 5x8 is driving the voltage/tone signalling through the WB68. I know other people have suggested that at least some of the problems can be placed at the door of the WB68 being unpowered; if you use stacked multiswitches like I have, or a Sonora power locker, this will avoid any of those problems. I have OTA using a CM4228/CM7777 combination through a four-way splitter to my receivers.
> 
> I do not have Sunday Ticket although I do have NHL center ice. I have not had a blank screen, a "searching for satellite", missing tuner, a missing recording, or a lockup since at least the beginning of November maybe longer. I am currently running the "Elvis" 0115 download. My HR20 is typically running about 70% full, almost all HD, some of it MPEG-4 and some MPEG-2 OTA.
> ...


But that's exactly the kind of thing D* needs to look at. You have a fairly sophisticated system set up. Is that typical of what those folks who are having no issues have? There has to be some common denominator that causes this on some, and not on others.

I can live with the inconvenience bugs. In many cases there are workarounds, in other cases, such as audio dropout, it might not be the HR20 at all. It's the stability of the system and it's ability to do the DVR core features that is puzzling.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

TomF said:


> DirecTV is doing US, the HR20 customers, a disservice by using a public forum as the "unofficial" way to communicate our problems. And for using Earl, self-sacrificing as he is, as the "unofficial" conduit of information from DirecTV.


No, D* is doing US and itself a disservice by allowing HR20 customers to talk to CSR's. I have no issues with D* using this forum for feedback from a few of us diehard DVR fans.

The problem is how D* is treating the vast majority that don't even know what a forum is. D* should have a dedicated Tier 2 group dedicated to the HR20. As soon as a customer calls in and mentions an issue with an HR20, they get transferred to the HR20 group.

And this group should be well trained on this box and be forced to spend the first 15 minutes of their shift reading this forum.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> No, D* is doing US and itself a disservice by allowing HR20 customers to talk to CSR's. I have no issues with D* using this forum for feedback from a few of us diehard DVR fans.
> 
> The problem is how D* is treating the vast majority that don't even know what a forum is. D* should have a dedicated Tier 2 group dedicated to the HR20. As soon as a customer calls in and mentions an issue with an HR20, they get transferred to the HR20 group.
> 
> And this group should be well trained on this box and be forced to spend the first 15 minutes of their shift reading this forum.


Your absolutely right. Does D* even HAVE a tier 2 support? I've only dealt with the first response CSRs and Customer Retention. Many large companies have teir 2 support based on certain core prodcuts. IIRC MS has setup specific support streams for their new releases on many ocassion. At least if you speak to someone who's intimate with the hardware, they can get a good feel as to EXACTLY what the isse is and what is causing it. They can ask the right questions and might be smart enough to veer off the support script to troubleshoot. I work support and have both been a CSR type and a manager, and to me any CSR or level 2 support person worth his/her salt is smart enough to see when the script is not helping and knows the prodcut well enough to understand what the issue is. I have not called a D* CSR about any of my HR20 issues because I rely more on my good friends here to give me answers, or, in the case of Earl, to present our issues to D*. It's far more effective and takes a lot less time. That is the problem when large companies skimp on customer support. D* has done that, especially since the Murdoch resgime started, whether it be poor CSR, or barely qualified installers. While perhaps we can give D* the benefit of the doubt for the HR20, what we cannot condone is shoddy customer service.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

well, i dunno what the dispute is. i have an hr20. and it isnt reliable.

have to reboot it, remote issues and have had more problems.  i wish they would bring back a tivo option for those of us who want it.

but im not crying over it. i think its an ok machine, but this is like a beta machine, which isn't literally ready for primetime. 

so what? its just a dvr and the world will go on. this isn't a big slam, i just wish the product could have been designed to actually be reliable. not semi-reliable.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> Does D* even HAVE a tier 2 support?


Yes they do. They also used to have a dedicated DVR group but I am not sure if it still exists. The problem with the DVR group was you still had to do the script with the CSR first and if rebooting/C&D, etc didn't work, then you got escalted.

I think the escalation needs to be immediate. If you mention HR20, then you are escalted.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> No, D* is doing US and itself a disservice by allowing HR20 customers to talk to CSR's. I have no issues with D* using this forum for feedback from a few of us diehard DVR fans.
> 
> The problem is how D* is treating the vast majority that don't even know what a forum is. D* should have a dedicated Tier 2 group dedicated to the HR20. As soon as a customer calls in and mentions an issue with an HR20, they get transferred to the HR20 group.
> 
> And this group should be well trained on this box and be forced to spend the first 15 minutes of their shift reading this forum.


Completely agree. It's a waste of time talking to most CSRs about the HR20. What is worse, they won't admit they don't know the answers. It's all about meeting the "number of calls per hour" target that the CSRs probably have.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Wolff - EXTREMELY FAIR QUESTION, and thanks for asking.
> 
> Here is what I have a problem with (THESE ARE QUOTES FROM THE ARTICLE): my reply is in RED
> 
> ...


1. The therapist comment was directed at anyone who calls people whiners and/or complainers because the latter had the audacity to call the HR20 a POS/POC. And it happened over and over again. (I didn't like it, so I often responded in kind. In retrospect, it was a bad idea. But sometimes, you fight fire with fire.) No need for details, because it happened. Why someone feels compelled to label others in that manner makes no sense to me. Those folks were clearly venting about their HR20s, and didn't need someone ridiculing them for it. The POS/POC people were calling a machine, not other people, names. Get it? There's a difference.

2. My personal experiences aside, there are still people having the same major problems, and the article was focused on them as well. And if you read my postscript, my HR20 has reverted to the "irritating" state with black screens and freezes. So when I initially wrote the piece, mine WAS working. But I had no real confidence it would continue to work. My postscript indicates I was right on that front.

3. Just because my issues had been fixed (at the time) didn't mean the rest had been fixed for other users. In fact, the posts here indicated that many people were continuing to have severe problems with their HR20s.

Oh, I purely speculated that 10-15 percent number, and kept it on the low side, for the sake of argument. It could be 1 percent, could be 30. But it is SOME percentage, we just don't know the actual number. I asked the main PR person at Directv for stats, and he sidestepped the question. The entire bias issue is ridiculous, as I already explained. My so-called bias is that my HR20 hasn't worked from the get-go, not consistently anyway. What do you base your opinions on? Someone else's experience? You use the term bias as if it were akin to murder. We all carry "bias" around with us, based on our experience. No?

4. For me, "significant" is enough people to generate the hundreds of posts on this forum, and the potential number of irate phone calls Directv has received about the HR20. Another significant number is 14, the number of software patches/downloads that have been either disseminated (or not) so far (check Earl's list). Is that number significant enough for you? Earl has already stated in his posts that the HR20 has problems. There is no debate about that fact.

The real debate is whether or not Directv has handled the situation in the best interests of its customers. I don't believe it has, others disagree. But your hostile tone from the start definitely let us all know that you believe Directv has done a great job, and the HR20 is perfectly fine for an acceptable number of Directv customers. I guess you can say that's your bias


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Steveknj said:


> But that's exactly the kind of thing D* needs to look at. You have a fairly sophisticated system set up. Is that typical of what those folks who are having no issues have? There has to be some common denominator that causes this on some, and not on others.
> 
> I can live with the inconvenience bugs. In many cases there are workarounds, in other cases, such as audio dropout, it might not be the HR20 at all. It's the stability of the system and it's ability to do the DVR core features that is puzzling.


I don't know, you may be correct about the more sophisticated installs having less problems. I had a solid installation from the beginning, apart from the first 99/103 LNBs failing in the first 24 hours; I basically followed the installer around, talking about DirecTV, install issues and so on. He had done about 15 AT-9 installs but it was only his second HR20. My dish is properly mounted with the monopoles so it has stayed aligned even in Texas storms. 
At first I recorded everything on my HR10 as well as on the HR20, as a backup, but stopped doing that in early November.

The audio dropouts are either a problem at the station or my receiver is taking a few seconds to switch between stereo and DD, I have not had the time to investigate.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> OBVIOUSLY - you are out of context COMPLETELY. I *NEVER* SAID YOUR PIECE OR VIEW WAS "FAR FROM THE TRUTH". AFTER you re-read, if you don't agree with this statement, please post where I'm wrong about this.
> 
> *What I DID say* was, to be presented as UNBIASED (as you were be OTHER posters in this thread) was "FAR FROM THE TRUTH". In fact the rest of your response to me BACKS THAT UP - so thank you.
> 
> ...


As I said, I only "talked down" to people who insulted others on this forum. In my view, they deserved it. But I am refraining from that in the future, because it's a waste of time anyway.


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## katesguy (Jan 12, 2007)

Article was dead on- I am sitting here waiting for the 4th visit from a Sat install company to try to get locals working in HD. I get up each morning and do a RBR. I am intriqued by the Dish offering also. How do I get the $299 back? Can I take it back to Circuit City?


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

*Thanks for the article.*

I've been with D* for almost 10 years and got a HR10-250 right at the start. When I read D*'s CEO state at CES that an MPEG4 upgrade path was going to be essentially cost free, I e-mailed DirecTV.

They said they'd call me next week to discuss.

After reading the article, I'll be happily staying with my 2 HR10-250's until the HR20 is a stable product or until another better solution is made available by VZ's FIOS folks.

The sad thing is that Comcast (who I don't like) just announced TiVo on their Motorola DVR within a few months. Gawd, how I wish D* and TiVo just could have gotten along :nono2:

Thanks so much for posting the article and saving me from the wrath of my family!


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> *Thanks for the article.*
> 
> I've been with D* for almost 10 years and got a HR10-250 right at the start. When I read D*'s CEO state at CES that an MPEG4 upgrade path was going to be essentially cost free, I e-mailed DirecTV.
> 
> ...


Be careful, because they are now reporting problems with the HR10-250 and all other Directivos as well. Check this out...http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333326

We have two R10s, but only 7 season passes. So far, no problems. I think Earl has something posted about it here on DBSTalk as well, but I don't have the link.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

1) This thread was started in the General Forum... Then moved to HR20, so a "redirector can be created", and then moved back....

2) As for the "status" of tstarn... I stated it earlier in the thread... that it was an issue between him... and DBSTalk... not an issue for public discussion.

*ANYONE* and I don't care who you are... bring it up again, in the public forum (any where... and not just this thread)... you will have a similar situation.

:backtotop

or else this thread will be closed.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) This thread was started in the General Forum... Then moved to HR20, so a "redirector can be created", and then moved back....
> 
> 2) As for the "status" of tstarn... I stated it earlier in the thread... that it was an issue between him... and DBSTalk... not an issue for public discussion.
> 
> ...


Works for me.


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## Steveknj (Nov 14, 2006)

Herdfan said:


> Yes they do. They also used to have a dedicated DVR group but I am not sure if it still exists. The problem with the DVR group was you still had to do the script with the CSR first and if rebooting/C&D, etc didn't work, then you got escalted.
> 
> I think the escalation needs to be immediate. If you mention HR20, then you are escalted.


Agreed. When I supported a product, I made sure that I KNEW everything I could possibly know about the product script or no. And if I didn't know the answer, I would find out, even if it took calls to the engineers to get the answer. If D* is sticking by their statement that this is their "flagship" then they need to do everything in their power to support it as if it was. I might go as far as to setup an HR20 hotline.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> 1) This thread was started in the General Forum... Then moved to HR20, so a "redirector can be created", and then moved back....
> 
> 2) As for the "status" of tstarn... I stated it earlier in the thread... that it was an issue between him... and DBSTalk... not an issue for public discussion.
> 
> ...


Fine with me!


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

texasbrit said:


> I don't know, you may be correct about the more sophisticated installs having less problems. I had a solid installation from the beginning, apart from the first 99/103 LNBs failing in the first 24 hours; I basically followed the installer around, talking about DirecTV, install issues and so on. He had done about 15 AT-9 installs but it was only his second HR20. My dish is properly mounted with the monopoles so it has stayed aligned even in Texas storms.
> At first I recorded everything on my HR10 as well as on the HR20, as a backup, but stopped doing that in early November.
> 
> The audio dropouts are either a problem at the station or my receiver is taking a few seconds to switch between stereo and DD, I have not had the time to investigate.


Cabling/Setup differences does sound as if it could play an important part except for those whose units have worked fine for months and then go south after a new software update. No changes in the setup, only new software and blam, their unit now demonstrates problems.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Be careful, because they are now reporting problems with the HR10-250 and all other Directivos as well. Check this out...http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=333326
> 
> We have two R10s, but only 7 season passes. So far, no problems. I think Earl has something posted about it here on DBSTalk as well, but I don't have the link.


I have 2 HR10-250's and the work fine. Record everything I need, speed is good. There have been some issues with 6.3a/b that seem to revolve around having a full/nearly full drive. But it's OK.

(D*"s software quality assurrance team must really stink, though. The TiVo code is written by TiVo but signed off on by D*. The HR20 code is also signed off by D*. If you ask me, the primary culprit in this fiasco is D*'s Head of Quality)

Good enough for me not to switch until the birds are sucessfully launched and D*'s expanded HD offerings actually start to materialize.

I'm figuring that the HR20 will be a lot more stable by that time. Heck, if it isn't, D* may have a mass exodus on their hands. (keep in mind that I think they'll get there - eventually :nono: )


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I have 2 HR10-250's and the work fine. Record everything I need, speed is good. There have been some issues with 6.3a/b that seem to revolve around having a full/nearly full drive. But it's OK.
> 
> (D*"s software quality assurrance team must really stink, though. The TiVo code is written by TiVo but signed off on by D*. The HR20 code is also signed off by D*. If you ask me, the primary culprit in this fiasco is D*'s Head of Quality)
> 
> ...


Good plan, and there is a posted workaround if your HR10-250s start missing recordings: You have to reboot the box and then force a call to re-index the guide. This is the recipe I found:

Quick fix
1. Restart the recorder
2. Force a call to the DVR service
3. Wait about 2 hours
4. Smile when you see all SP recordings have returned

Repeat these steps every 48 hours, according to the people on the Tivo board.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

tstarn said:


> Good plan, and there is a posted workaround if your HR10-250s start missing recordings: You have to reboot the box and then force a call to re-index the guide. This is the recipe I found:
> 
> Quick fix
> 1. Restart the recorder
> ...


That'll work.

Me, I'm just looking at the recording History screen from the To-Do List, and checking for shows that aren't going to record that should (usually says that"someone modified the season pass".... yeah, sure). I then use "record this episode also" on those.

It's worked for me the past few weeks, though I hate to have to babysit the machine. (I feel a little better if I think back to the days of VCRs)


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

greenwave said:


> The only part of this article I take issue with is the suggestion that the Tivo-based D* DVRs were reliable. It was because my HR10-250 COULD NOT reliably receive the Atlanta locals OTA, despite that I am no more than a mile from any of the major network towers, that decided to move to the HR20. (And coincidentally, the HR10-250, which was moved upstairs to our bedroom with only a SD tv, froze and locked up last night requiring a power disconnect and restart. And my previous SD D* Tivo died a slow death over the last year only 2+ years into service.)
> 
> Yesterday at a lunch with co-workers I asked several of them using the local cable provider here in Atlanta whether they were pleased with the performance of the cable company's HD DVR. Uniformly they said "no"; and all reported that their units failed to work properly with frequency (missed recordings; dropped signals; lock ups, etc.).
> 
> I guess my point is that some unreliability appears to be endemic to sophisticated consumer electronics, including the so-called stable DVRs on the market, and the HR20 shouldn't be held to a higher standard. All of you gadget freaks out there know and understand that new technology comes with hiccups. This isn't an apology for D*, because I am as frustrated as the next guy, but it is patently unfair to single out the HR20 as the paradigm of unreliable consumer electronics, particularly when you are comparing it in the same breath to the D* Tivo-based products. None are perfect. But even with the flaws, your lifestyle is better with them.


I don't think the HR-20 is being held to a higher standard. Excepting the last couple weeks when DirecTV (arguably TiVo, but under D*'s supervision) broadly screwed up the TiVo boxes too, the TiVo units were vastly more reliable for most customer. Were they 100% for everyone? Definitely not -- and on that point I agree that's an unrealistic standard for any of these boxes. But the broad complaints over the HR-20 are in a whole different league than TiVo or even cable co DVR's. Your problem with TiVo is related to recording a specific set of OTA channels. But arguably a majority of HR-20 users are having EVERY show they record start failing once a box enters a corruption phase. D* has even more or less acknwoeldged this -- their spokespersons don't of course, but their service tech's won't even send out new units when people report these total failures anymore because they say they know it is a software issue and it would be a "waste" to send another unit "because it will probably have the same problem."

You're obviously not going to believe me and these threads always degenerate into a war between supposed "defenders" and "detractors" but it is what it is. I think the overall market noise speaks better than either of our our individual experiences and the general vibe from this articles and boards all over the Internet is that the HR-20 has a higher degree of failure issues than your average bear...


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bwaldron said:


> That'll work.
> 
> Me, I'm just looking at the recording History screen from the To-Do List, and checking for shows that aren't going to record that should (usually says that"someone modified the season pass".... yeah, sure). I then use "record this episode also" on those.
> 
> It's worked for me the past few weeks, though I hate to have to babysit the machine. (I feel a little better if I think back to the days of VCRs)


I believe Earl has received an update on the Tivo missing SP issues. Should be fixed this weekend with an update coming. Is that correct Earl?


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## TheKnobber (Dec 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What makes you think that they are NOT motivated to get the problem resolved?


I don't think the problem is motivation. Any company that releases fourteen software updates over the course of a few months is clearly motivated. I think the problem is lack of talent. I don't say this in a mean way, I say it to be accurate. Its pretty clear based on the patterns of bugs that the software engineers and possibly QA staff lack the ability to solve the deeper problems. I've seen this over and over again in my 20 years of managing software teams. One very talented engineer can do what 10 mediocre engineers can never do no matter how hard they try. Its like playing chess at a high level. You have to have the ability, otherwise no matter how many games you play, you are still going to get crushed.

It seems clear that a change in strategy is required. I would urge the Director in charge of the software team to bring in a few very high powered software contractors who are highly recommended and give them free reign for two months. I would also hire additional QA staff, as it appears that the current staffing level is not enough to cover the broad array of testing required to catch some of these serious problems that should have been caught before release to the public.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

14 releases in a few months demonstrates a software development practice at CMM level 1.

CMM level 1 is also known as "chaos" among us professionals.

If you're interested, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model#Level_1_-_Initial


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Sometimes it takes a bad press release to get attention to the people that need to see it.

It would not surprise me if others have seen management that sometimes do not pass things up and have a hard time being candid with their boss. We will never know if that is what is happening with D* or not.

But a article that really does call the kettle black is a wake up call that affects the company as a whole, even financially. That is where it hurts.

I didn't see anything in the article that I would disagree with. It was well written and put together on what has been seen and reported.

Am I going to throw the towel in on my HR20? Probably not.

I truly believe articles of this type need to be published so the owners of the product need to be held accountable for decisions that are made. I am willing to bet that the reigns have been tightened and people are under extreme pressure to make the HR20 the flagship it was intended to be.

Did they release the HR20 to early? Perhaps. The line is sometimes drawn in the wrong spot when management says "Get it out the door!" and the QA team says, "It's not ready." It is usually not the QA team that wins the argument. The development team has a deadline and management will usually hold the team to that deadline.

This is a never ending debate and it will not be solved here.

It will be solved a D*.

I say keep the articles true and publish them. Keep D* accountable!


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> I believe Earl has received an update on the Tivo missing SP issues. Should be fixed this weekend with an update coming. Is that correct Earl?


And if that is correct, is this going to be the same staggered-type rollout they have been using? My two owned HR10s just got the 6.3b update Monday night, and my leased HR10 just got it last night (Thursday). I hope I won't have to wait nearly that long again to fix the SP problem.

Of course, if there is no fix in the works, I'll just have to wait longer!:grin:


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Let's look at this another way:

DirecTV under Hughes - not perfect, but pretty darn good. 

DirecTV under News Corp - continued SNAFUS, reduction in quality and increase in price.

I really hope Liberty can fix the mess. Obviously, it's only TV, but it does kinda act as a metaphor for so many buyouts in the last few years... They only benefit a few while customers and employees suffer... "Greed is Good", as the movie Wall Street said.


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## moonman (Oct 27, 2004)

Wolffpack said:


> I believe Earl has received an update on the Tivo missing SP issues. Should be fixed this weekend with an update coming. Is that correct Earl?


http://news.com.com/Customers+miffe...blems/2100-1038_3-6150142.html?tag=html.alert


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> 14 releases in a few months demonstrates a software development practice at CMM level 1.
> 
> CMM level 1 is also known as "chaos" among us professionals.
> 
> If you're interested, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Maturity_Model#Level_1_-_Initial


Wilbur,

Hmmm...interesting thought. By itself, 14 releases in a few months, seems inconclusive. In D* favor is that some did not go all the way national, which is a process, repeated, and shows some feedback influencing the process.

On the other hand, 108 did go public and 115 continued. And a software organization can not achieve CMM 2 on its first full project.

On the other, other hand, we ain't really got good views inside D* practices. They very well could be doing everything it takes to become CMM 5 as soon as they get enough projects under their belt.

And it sure seems safe to say their QA processes can't yet truly capture what users are really doing in the real world. Which, again, seems inconclusive for CMM categorization.

Ah well, this is an interesting aspect to the situation.

Cheers,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> Sometimes it takes a bad press release to get attention to the people that need to see it.
> 
> It would not surprise me if others have seen management that sometimes do not pass things up and have a hard time being candid with their boss. We will never know if that is what is happening with D* or not.
> 
> ...


This is a very good point. While my article didn't run in the NYT or on any "mainstream" website like CNET, sooner or later, that HDTVMagazine article, the posts on this forum and other less mainstream communications outlets will "filter up" to more mainstream pubs and online news outlets (it's already happening). Eventually, if we keep at it, it will create even more pressure on Directv to get their flagship DVR up to snuff. And that was probably the main reason I decided to write the piece. Sometimes things build slowly, but eventually, a groundswell will cause changes. I know they are working hard, but while working hard is admirable, working smart makes for better outcomes. Seems like Directv needs more of the latter to solve this problem. We can all agree we want them to succeed.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> I believe Earl has received an update on the Tivo missing SP issues. Should be fixed this weekend with an update coming. Is that correct Earl?


Not exactly...

From what I have been told, and this is really for another thread.
As that TiVo, Inc... has identified the issue... and is working on the appropriate fix for it... which may ultimate result in new software downloads for the DTivo units. If/When that may happen... the details are not known yet.

In the mean time, they have identified a work around, that should reduce/eliminate the issue until the appropriate fix can be put in place.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

So how much is really known about the hardware itself.

I have yet to see anyone post that the same Broadcom chipset is used in any other machines.

Maybe it's not the software as much as it is the hardware needing repair in software.

Spanky


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Spanky_Partain said:


> So how much is really known about the hardware itself.
> 
> I have yet to see anyone post that the same Broadcom chipset is used in any other machines.
> 
> ...


A dish person, who likely would know given his position, indicated that the Vip622 and the HR20 are very similar, using at least many of the same chips.

Cheers,
Tom


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## mrshermanoaks (Aug 27, 2006)

TomF said:


> I also made the point that, although I respect Earl for what he is doing, has done and will probably continue to do, is that he is volunteering to do this and having a volunteer be the upfront person taking the shots for DirecTV is a really poor way for DirecTV to treat it's customers and just shows that they're trying to sidestep any direct responsibility.


yes, yes, yes.....

Earl, it doesn't mean we don't appreciate you. But DirecTV should have some official spokespeople doing some of this posting.


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

Nick said:


> Several comments:
> 
> The question here is how long will HR20 users put up with what many have angrily termed a "POS/POC" until they jump ship. With D*'s minimal selection of only 9 national HD channels, I would have been gone
> long before the end of the year. For those of you hanging on by your fingernails, best of luck, but please don't hold your breath waiting for D*'s promise of 100 HD channels this year -- or even in 2008, for that
> ...


Right on the money. Apparently the cable companies can make a product that works and has video on demand and in some instances has better HD quality that D* will ever offer.

Wonder if anyone at Liberty actually read this article and cares?


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> The sad thing is that Comcast (who I don't like) just announced TiVo on their Motorola DVR within a few months. Gawd, how I wish D* and TiVo just could have gotten along :nono2:




Comcast getting TIVO technology? My God man that is the best news ever...
Damn, I only have Time Warner and FIOS. Now if FIOS only offered an RF remote. I'd already be gone.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

S. DiThomas,
Absolutely. Comcast customers will soon have a choice as to which DVR software you use - TiVo or the native software. Different software, same hardware.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Comcast seems to be "getting it right".


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

tibber said:


> A dish person, who likely would know given his position, indicated that the Vip622 and the HR20 are very similar, using at least many of the same chips.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Good info tibber, looks like they are having some similar issues, but it does appear to be a little more reliable.

I can only speculate that it would be a development effort with this information.

Spanky


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> S. DiThomas,
> Absolutely. Comcast customers will soon have a choice as to which DVR software you use - TiVo or the native software. Different software, same hardware.
> 
> I can't believe I'm saying this, but Comcast seems to be "getting it right".


I would like to hope so, but I'm not holding my breath yet. Two concerns: 1) Comcast and TiVo first announced their partnership almost two years ago and are way, way behind their original ETA. Of course with CES and all the other new announcements, they are going to refresh that message, but I'll believe it when I see a national roll-out ("test markets" won't impress me either)...

2) More importantly, I am disappointed to hear they will simply port TiVo software onto the existing Motorola boxes. Three reasons -- a) That sounds like a recipe for trouble. It sounds like they may have to code a square peg into a round hole which given all the trouble they have had recently with code revisions on native hardware, is asking a lot. b) The Motorola boxes only have 120 gig HD's. I had one for 6 months last year. The software sucked. But it had terrible capacity for HD; c) Have they specifically announced they will provide the HD version of TiVo? I have not seen this. If so, that is one less problem, but until I see it first hand from an official quote or press release, I wouldn't make that asusmption.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

anubys said:


> what are the chances that the new ownership will turn back to Tivo-based units?


Liberty has some stock in Tivo. so it is a possibility.

I would love to have Tivo back ! but who knows. directv is notoriously stubborn. but of course there is new ownership now.


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

mitchelljd said:


> Liberty has some stock in Tivo. so it is a possibility.
> 
> I would love to have Tivo back ! but who knows. directv is notoriously stubborn. but of course there is new ownership now.


I know they'll make alot of people very pleased if they went back to Tivo.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Araxen said:


> I know they'll make alot of people very pleased if they went back to Tivo.


...and some that would be quite disappointed.


tstarn said:


> Works for me.


Welcome back Tom.

Despite us perhaps tangling from time to time, I have seen you emerge in more of a balanced state, and commend you.

We welcome your insights (again).

Hopefully all of our "debates" in the near future will be all about what the heck goodies can be added to this unit, as opposed to firmware update "issues".


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and some that would be quite disappointed.
> 
> Hopefully all of our "debates" in the near future will be all about what the heck goodies can be added to this unit, as opposed to firmware update "issues".


Pardon my apparent ignorance - why would anyone be disappointed with TIVO software? Does anyone here think the HR20 DTV homebrew software does a better job?

I for sure don't and I am not realy a power user - I record about 10-15 shows a week use no search features (since they stink or oh yea they don't work on the HR20) and don't have any sports packages. I just want a DVR that works, doesn't lock up and doesn't need rebooting every few days or so.

Tivo delivered that AND MORE with their software and apparently D*'s hardware (am I wrong here)?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

S. DiThomas said:


> Pardon my apparent ignorance - why would anyone be disappointed with TIVO software? Does anyone here think the HR20 DTV homebrew software does a better job?


Yes. I love the HR20 GUI far better then Tivo. Both record what I tell it (well actually the DirecTivo's *haven't* been recording things correctly for about a month now). I'll be in the process of replacing all the rest of my DirecTivo's in the house to HR20's this year, funding allowed.


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

Meanwhile, there are folks like me out here -- frankly, who doesn't visit this site as often as I used to because I don't need to. A few upgrades back, what problems I had with the HR20 went away. I visit now and again just to see what's passing.

I doubt my hardware is different from anyone else. The software upgrades worked.

Trolls who say their crystal ball tells them what D* will NOT offer in 6 months or 12 months -- deserve the title. I think I can say that approaching 13 years as a D* customer and 24 years online.

Sweeping generalities rooted in parochial experience and knowledge are nothing more. Telling me about all the wonders promised by Comcast > when they offer me fewer HD channels than D* and their "local" HD carriage doesn't include CBS -- is an example. Their practices are no more uniform nationally than are those that D* is able to offer with the mpeg4 rollout.

Prices and value varying according to who owns D*? I had to pay $1000 to get my HR10 in the first couple of months on the street > and it was replaced 3 times in a year before it worked. My HR20 was free.

I see no need to discuss something as subjective as TiVo v. HR20 GUI. Suffice it to say, I've given away my TiVo-based DVR's.

I think most of the criticisms offered are legit and often -- often -- the manner of criticism is apt and appropriate. Some of it I find pointless and repetitive -- especially from those who persist in refusing to do a complete reformat and reboot -- or request a replacement. We certainly did it often enough with the HR10.

Thank you, Earl, for having the patience of Job. You get to deal with D* -- and consumer/experts.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Yes. I love the HR20 GUI far better then Tivo. Both record what I tell it (well actually the DirecTivo's *haven't* been recording things correctly for about a month now). I'll be in the process of replacing all the rest of my DirecTivo's in the house to HR20's this year, funding allowed.


Just as an FYI, they apparently fixed that Directivo glitch overnight. Check the last 10-15 posts ...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4769497#post4769497


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## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Yes. I love the HR20 GUI far better then Tivo. Both record what I tell it (well actually the DirecTivo's *haven't* been recording things correctly for about a month now). I'll be in the process of replacing all the rest of my DirecTivo's in the house to HR20's this year, funding allowed.


I agree. With the execption of DLB, which is by no means a deal breaker for me, I MUCH prefer the HR20 over TIVO. DLB was nice when the wife didn't want to watch one of my sporting events and the 2nd tuner was busy recording another show. She could watch whatever program she wanted and I could get the "highlights" of the sports during the commercials.

Other than that one minor feature, I find the HR20 to be superior in nearly every aspect. That's strictly my own personal view based on my own usage.... and I LOVED my TIVO. I just happen to love my HR20 more.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

S. DiThomas said:


> Pardon my apparent ignorance - why would anyone be disappointed with TIVO software? Does anyone here think the HR20 DTV homebrew software does a better job?


I much prefer the GUI, menu structure etc., with the HR20 and R15 than Tivos. Have both and rarely turn the Tivo on anymore.

My R15's (2 of them) and my HR20 are all currently working good and giving me no problems, although I did have one R15 fail due to heat issues.

Carl


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

S. DiThomas said:


> Pardon my apparent ignorance - why would anyone be disappointed with TIVO software? Does anyone here think the HR20 DTV homebrew software does a better job?


You are by no means ignorant.

But there is a general consensus that the Tivo software was (rightfully) "dumbed down" for the original generation of DVR users, in comparison to the newer GUI's found in the HR20 and Dish boxes.

My H10-250 was a royal pain, had contant issues of reliability with lockups, and similar problems also reported by hundreds and hundreds of other users. If you read the threads on the Tivocommunity site, you'll see there are tons of others in the same boat, long before their most recent firmware debacle.

For a first round, the H10 wasn't bad...and *at the time*, the GUI made sense.

In round two, the HR20 GUI is better to many folks, or so they are all saying in various posts. But everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions on what "works" for them.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

carl6 said:


> I much prefer the GUI, menu structure etc., with the HR20 and R15 than Tivos. Have both and rarely turn the Tivo on anymore.
> 
> My R15's (2 of them) and my HR20 are all currently working good and giving me no problems, although I did have one R15 fail due to heat issues.
> 
> Carl


Carl,

Not picking on you, and a question to everyone, do you consider the lack of functioning First Run/Repeat logic as acceptable? I'm not sure how the HR20 works, but one of the reasons I deactivated my R15 was that it still records every show I have setup as a SL on DSC, TLC, SCiFI, Food Network and FX last time I checked. Does anyone out there have a HR20 or R15 that truly is working as well as a Tivo at First Run/Repeats with all channels?

Carl you make the statement that "My R15's (2 of them) and my HR20 are all currently working good and giving me no problems...". I see FR/REPs as a major problem but maybe you don't. Or I'm missing something?


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## Dbadone (Nov 9, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Carl,
> 
> Not picking on you, and a question to everyone, do you consider the lack of functioning First Run/Repeat logic as acceptable? I'm not sure how the HR20 works, but one of the reasons I deactivated my R15 was that it still records every show I have setup as a SL on DSC, TLC, SCiFI, Food Network and FX last time I checked. Does anyone out there have a HR20 or R15 that truly is working as well as a Tivo at First Run/Repeats with all channels?
> 
> Carl you make the statement that "My R15's (2 of them) and my HR20 are all currently working good and giving me no problems...". I see FR/REPs as a major problem but maybe you don't. Or I'm missing something?


Both my R15's work great no problems with the first run/repeats everything works as promised.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

I've been a loyal DirecTv subscriber since its birth, when it was only available in a couple test market cities. Over the years, I've enjoyed the nearly seamless quality of service and diversity of programming. 

With DirecTv's implementation of TiVo, I was overjoyed, because my SD TiVos performed flawlessly. They have NEVER suffered a single problem, and their elegant user interface easily enticed my wife and young daughter. Even the bean shaped remote was a pleasure to hold. 

Now, I have an HR20, and can honestly say I've never experienced a more flawed device in my life. How could such a high profile, respected company, facing ever increasing competition, allow a device like this to ever be sold? Surely they knew it was deeply flawed, and if they didn't know before customers did, that's equally damning. 

Never has the bloom of excitement and anticipation of a new high end electronics purchase been so abruptly extinguished by the performance of the product.

After convincing my wife that HDTV was the way to go, she also is now entirely satisfied with the SD recordings of our old TiVos. Anything to avoid the endless glitches of the new recorder. Despite software updates (including the most recent "test" version that hasn't been nationally released yet), the device still is unable to record a show free of continual audio and video dropouts. It's so irritating to watch that even I've returned to the old TiVos to record my favorite shows. 

Sure, the HR20 DVR is great when it works (ie, isn't recording anything), but for $299 merely for the right to pay a monthly lease for a device DirecTv owns and eventually wants back (even though it only has a 90 day warranty), and a new 2-year commitment to DirecTv that starts when I turn the HR20 on, I'd say my expectation is that the DVR should work fairly consistently or never be sold to me. I'd like to watch TV, not struggle with a recorder. If this were a VCR or something I owned instead of leased, I'd have literally taken a sledgehammer to it already, splattering its guts all over my garage floor. 

Some of the early HR20 adopters seem to enjoy the endless tinkering involved with using this device, posting endlessly flatulant reports to various blogs about successful reboots and nuanced improvements from various software revisions. 

But there are many more still who simply will dump DirecTv, as I will, and move to Dish, cable or FIOS. 

If ever there was a product that cried out for a class action lawsuit, the HR20 is it. Since the device does not work as specified, I see my new 2-year commitment as void. If DirecTv disagrees, perhaps a massive lawsuit is necessary to convince them. 

Complaints to DirecTv customer service fall on deaf ears. "Our unit is just like a TiVo," the voice on the phone cheerfully tells me. "Yeah, and I suppose an MP3 player with audio dropouts is just like an iPod," I reply.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Dbadone said:


> Both my R15's work great no problems with the first run/repeats everything works as promised.


Can you let me know what programs on SciFi, Discovery, Food Network or TLC you have setup as SLs and as First Runs?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> Carl,
> 
> Not picking on you, and a question to everyone, do you consider the lack of functioning First Run/Repeat logic as acceptable? I'm not sure how the HR20 works, but one of the reasons I deactivated my R15 was that it still records every show I have setup as a SL on DSC, TLC, SCiFI, Food Network and FX last time I checked. Does anyone out there have a HR20 or R15 that truly is working as well as a Tivo at First Run/Repeats with all channels?


Wolf,

I can't say for the R15 cause I don't have one. But the HR20 hasn't had any problems with first runs. I've never seen anything other then spotty complaints and most of those are due to bad guide data that would trip up a Tivo as well.

Series lists I have from those channels you list:
Both Stargates, BSG, Eureka, Dresdin Files, Dr. Who
Everday Italian, 30 minute meals, Emeril, Iron Chef America
and quite a few more.

First runs on the HR20 work great.

You really should see if DirecTV will give you a great upgrade deal for an HR20 over the R15.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

My HDVR2 (Tivo), now retired, wasn't all that great about not recording reruns. My R15 and HR20 (although limited experience with the latter) seem to do better.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> But there are many more still who simply will dump DirecTv, as I will, and move to Dish, cable or FIOS.
> 
> If ever there was a product that cried out for a class action lawsuit, the HR20 is it. Since the device does not work as specified, I see my new 2-year commitment as void. If DirecTv disagrees, perhaps a massive lawsuit is necessary to convince them.


And there are quite a huge number of subs (myself included) that aren't having problems and are really quite satisfied. And I don't see any huge number of people that are going to leave D*, not when they will shortly have the most robust HD offering available anywhere.

Listen, I am NOT saying many (whatever small PERCENTAGE of the overall HR20 uses base that may be) are not having problems (obviously some are). But what I don't understand is why some do, some don't. Is is possibly related to how a person utilizes it maybe?

What I can tell you for a fact is that I have mine set to record 2 different shows EVERY time they are on - and that they have NOT once failed to record the show, and that I have not had a single recording that I have not been able to watch.

Maybe its perception, This is my first experience in having a DVR - I never had TIVO. I use it to record and play, I see others who mention other features, frankly I don't use them, maybe therein also lies some of the issue.

I have had to re-boot a couple of times in the 4 months I have them (I have 2), but just like ANY digital device (including my PC) I take that as SOP. It has never been to a point that I feel is out of control by any means.

Believe me, even though I am overall a very satisfied D* customer, if these things were NOT to my level of satisfaction, I wouldn't be saying this - I'd be first on line to get mine replaced. I'm just not having real issues. And, others of my friends and neighbors have HR20s also, none of them are complaining or seem to have any real problems.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But there is a general consensus that the Tivo software was (rightfully) "dumbed down" for the original generation of DVR users, in comparison to the newer GUI's found in the HR20 and Dish boxes.
> 
> My H10-250 was a royal pain, had contant issues of reliability with lockups, and similar problems also reported by hundreds and hundreds of other users. If you read the threads on the Tivocommunity site, you'll see there are tons of others in the same boat, long before their most recent firmware debacle.
> 
> ...


Where are you getting the idea of a "concensus" that the TiVo GUI was dumbed down and is inferior to the HR-20 and Dish boxes? I think there is strong opinions on both sides, but I would say on average I have seen more posts favoring the TiVo GUI over the HR-20. Don't get me wrong -- there are many posts in favor of the HR-20, so I am not trying to diss it. But to suggest this is a concensus is just contrary to the widely available evidence (of posts) online...

My wife and I have used both, BTW. Putting aside the the HR-20 for us is completely unreliable (needs to be reset about every other day and about half the shows record corrupted -- but this is also a widely reported issue for many people and there's nothing to do but wait for the fix), I think the HR-20 interface is fine and has a few things definitely nicer than TiVo's. But overall we strongly prefer the TiVo interface. So that is our opinion. Others feel the the opposite. But to suggest that one is widely held as better is just silly...


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## cbeckner80 (Apr 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you let me know what programs on SciFi, Discovery, Food Network or TLC you have setup as SLs and as First Runs?


And I sit here at this moment as my R-15 gleefully records a Law and Order REPEAT :nono2: I've debated if I should get an HR20 or not; but I think I'll Waite a while.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Citivas said:


> Where are you getting the idea of a "concensus" that the TiVo GUI was dumbed down and is inferior to the HR-20 and Dish boxes? I think there is strong opinions on both sides, but I would say on average I have seen more posts favoring the TiVo GUI over the HR-20. Don't get me wrong -- there are many posts in favor of the HR-20, so I am not trying to diss it. But to suggest this is a concensus is just contrary to the widely available evidence (of posts) online...
> 
> My wife and I have used both, BTW. Putting aside the the HR-20 for us is completely unreliable (needs to be reset about every other day and about half the shows record corrupted -- but this is also a widely reported issue for many people and there's nothing to do but wait for the fix), I think the HR-20 interface is fine and has a few things definitely nicer than TiVo's. But overall we strongly prefer the TiVo interface. So that is our opinion. Others feel the the opposite. But to suggest that one is widely held as better is just silly...


Yep. Certainly no consensus that the HR20 is better. Or that is is awful -- there are things I definitely like about the HR20, and will live comfortably with the box when it is stable (I really would like dual buffers, though).

But simpler and more intuitive does not mean "dumbed down." The Tivo interface, while by no means perfect, is actually quite refined. In general, I prefer it. I also expect/hope that the HR20 GUI will become more refined over time. It's not a religious issue with me, at all.

What _is_ crucial to me is recording & playback stability, and even with its recent issues, the HR10 is still performing better on that count for me. I will be very happy when that changes.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bobnielsen said:


> My HDVR2 (Tivo), now retired, wasn't all that great about not recording reruns. My R15 and HR20 (although limited experience with the latter) seem to do better.


Okay.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> First runs on the HR20 work great.


Seems to be more and more the case. Needless to say it ain't working on the R15, guess it never will.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

cbeckner80 said:


> And I sit here at this moment as my R-15 gleefully records a Law and Order REPEAT :nono2: I've debated if I should get an HR20 or not; but I think I'll Waite a while.


Others also reported the holiday repeats of CSI, Shark and CSI:NY all being recorded while mine didn't. But again, that's the R15. The ugly toad faced step brother of the HR20 which gets all the new shoes, shirts and jackets, gets to stay up later at night and doesn't have to finish his vegetables.

Actions speak louder than words....oh wait, DTV doesn't ever offer any words, that's right. So actions speak louder than nothing. R15 customers seem more and more to mean nothing to DTV. :eek2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Citivas said:


> But to suggest this is a concensus is just contrary to the widely available evidence (of posts) online...


I guess it depends which dozens of threads and message boards we each read....


> My wife and I have used both, BTW. Putting aside the the HR-20 for us is completely unreliable (needs to be reset about every other day and about half the shows record corrupted --


It will be interesting to see if the release candidate many of us got tonight end up in a national release soon for everyone...based on about 100 posters in the chat room after their downloads and tests - very encouraging so far - this appears to be the most solid firmware to date. We should no more in the next 24 hours or so. If so, it means they got the HR20 about right after 120 days - less time than the H10-250 was stabilized.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It will be interesting to see if the release candidate many of us got tonight end up in a national release soon for everyone...based on about 100 posters in the chat room after their downloads and tests - very encouraging so far - this appears to be the most solid firmware to date. We should no more in the next 24 hours or so. If so, it means they got the HR20 about right after 120 days - less time than the H10-250 was stabilized.


Wow, it must be nice to live on the HR20 side of the tracks. Get a RC on the 8th and then again on the 13th. Boy I wish my Mom & Dad could afford to live on your side of the tracks. We get a new release on 12/08 and still not everyone on the R15 side has it. You guys are so lucky. :grin:


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Wow, it must be nice to live on the HR20 side of the tracks. Get a RC on the 8th and then again on the 13th. Boy I wish my Mom & Dad could afford to live on your side of the tracks. We get a new release on 12/08 and still not everyone on the R15 side has it. You guys are so lucky. :grin:


I have an HR10 as well as an HR20 (not to mention the SD units). Sometimes lately I feel like I'm living in the _middle_ of the tracks


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Carl,
> 
> Not picking on you, and a question to everyone, do you consider the lack of functioning First Run/Repeat logic as acceptable? I'm not sure how the HR20 works, but one of the reasons I deactivated my R15 was that it still records every show I have setup as a SL on DSC, TLC, SCiFI, Food Network and FX last time I checked. Does anyone out there have a HR20 or R15 that truly is working as well as a Tivo at First Run/Repeats with all channels?
> 
> Carl you make the statement that "My R15's (2 of them) and my HR20 are all currently working good and giving me no problems...". I see FR/REPs as a major problem but maybe you don't. Or I'm missing something?


The only series I was recording that had been recording both FR/REP is now working properly. That was the Tonight Show. I have several series (all on the major networks, none on DSC, TLC, Scifi, etc.) and all are properly recording first run only.

As for the HR20, have not really had time to evaluate that, as it's only been up and running a couple of days now.

Carl


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ... If so, it means they got the HR20 about right after 120 days - less time than the H10-250 was stabilized.


I'm just happy DirecTv didn't use customers as its testing department. Thank goodness they're working out the bugs behind closed doors with test dummies, like Ford and Boeing do.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess it depends which dozens of threads and message boards we each read....
> 
> It will be interesting to see if the release candidate many of us got tonight end up in a national release soon for everyone...based on about 100 posters in the chat room after their downloads and tests - very encouraging so far - this appears to be the most solid firmware to date. We should no more in the next 24 hours or so. If so, it means they got the HR20 about right after 120 days - less time than the H10-250 was stabilized.


The 10-250 was more stable day 1 for most people than the HR-20 is after 120 days so far, so I don't know where that's coming from. None of these DVR's have ever been 100 percent for all people, and I can guarantee you that even after D* fixes the major stability issues that are affecting many people, there still will be cases where specific boxes doing specific things have issues and those minority of owners declare it still unstable in general. It appears this was the case with the 10-250 for you. But the 10-250 didn't need CNet posting special notices updating its review or magazine articles detailing the mess. There's no way I'm going to convince you so I won't really try -- the scale of the HR-20's stability issues just aren't in the same league with the 10-250 or any other DVR box I have ever heard on released before. That's not a bash -- it will probably be a great box someday and already is for those without the major issues. But I just don't see the point in defending it be re-writing history...


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> I'm just happy DirecTv didn't use customers as its testing department. Thank goodness they're working out the bugs behind closed doors with test dummies, like Ford and Boeing do.


Yuk, Yuk - I get it. It's only TV man.


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

I thought I could live without dual buffers in the HR20. I'd come to love them in the TiVos, but were they really a necessity?

I now think so. I recorded today's Seattle/Chicago football game, as I was out at my kid's soccer game. When I returned, the game was halfway through. I started watching the recording (ignoring the audio and video dropouts as much as possible). When the DVR concluded its scheduled 3hr recording, I was halfway through watching it.

I worried that the game may have continued beyond 3 hours, but didn't want to check, and erroneously felt it would be in the single buffer, since that was the channel I'd been recording.

But, I'd forgotten that I'd set a recording for an HDNet movie some weeks ago that unfortunately began exactly when the game recording ended. So, no buffer.

Totally my fault, and not the HR20's. But it was tough as the recording ended, tie game, with 1:54 left. And, by the time I'd realized that I'd lost the buffer, the game had already gone into OT and ended.

Wife was not happy. Lots of swear words about DirecTv not including a dual buffer in the HR20. My error, but dual buffers would definitely be a nice feature to add at some point. :nono2:


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

dhaakenson,

One way around that (I think) is to tune the "live" channel (the one you see) to the game and the second recording should record on the "blind" feed.

The drawback with that is the wonderful "picture in guide" feature that would have to be ignored/muted until you were actually viewing the recording. I personally don't have any problem with not seeing a TV picture when navigating my TiVo menus. And I prefer that for just the situation explained here. It's an OK feature on the HR20 - especially if I'm watching a recording and am reminded of an upcoming program that I want to make sure I record - but I could just as easily do without it. I know I am in the minority on that, though.


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## Budget_HT (Jun 4, 2003)

I always pad sports recordings with an extra 30 minutes or 1 hour because I have been burned in the past.

I was gone from home when the Seahawks game ended, but I happened to be in Circuit City at that time, so I did not miss much (i saw the winning field goal and several plays before that).

BTW, the local CC had no means (or perhaps undersranding of how to) showing the game in HD, even though nearly every demo HDTV has some DirecTV HD feed on it.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Budget_HT said:


> I always pad sports recordings with an extra 30 minutes or 1 hour because I have been burned in the past.
> 
> I was gone from home when the Seahawks game ended, but I happened to be in Circuit City at that time, so I did not miss much (i saw the winning field goal and several plays before that).
> 
> BTW, the local CC had no means (or perhaps undersranding of how to) showing the game in HD, even though nearly every demo HDTV has some DirecTV HD feed on it.


So did your HR20 pad it correctly?


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## S. DiThomas (Oct 8, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> Yuk, Yuk - I get it. It's only TV man.


Hey now.... its not just TV its DirecTV. Watch your mouth young man. :icon_peac

And on the subject of which OS is "dummed down" simpler or more efficient. I vote that the HR20 is more for the average less sophisticated user than a Tivo yet it sometimes is much less efficient. Given its relative lack of features and search features it is far less efficient.

The up down tab selection also seems in efficient. Expanding menus would be much simpler. Without a mouse tabs are for kids. Too many button presses for my preference. This is where the Tivo interface excelled, much fewer presses to get something done or in or out of menus and sub-menus.

I for one can never find the recording history without many menu selections.
The dual guide button press is clearly for those who need finger calesthenics.
The change record settings for a series link is much harder to use than the Tivo Season Pass.

Those to me are just a few examples but I have only a Gen 1 Tivo and have used several 10-250s.


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## ozark (Jan 10, 2007)

thanks for all the information. Been with DTV since '95; Have three HR10-250; one HD. Been thinking about 'upgrading' to HR20 but will put that on hold. Been having problems with the HD. The new software update to 6b is said to take care of this. DTV customer support said that software update should be available in st.louis this coming week. Thanks again for the help. Sure am disappointed with DTV. Would hate to change because of the football package. Regards


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ozark said:


> thanks for all the information. Been with DTV since '95; Have three HR10-250; one HD. Been thinking about 'upgrading' to HR20 but will put that on hold. Been having problems with the HD. The new software update to 6b is said to take care of this. DTV customer support said that software update should be available in st.louis this coming week. Thanks again for the help. Sure am disappointed with DTV. Would hate to change because of the football package. Regards


Welcome ozark!!!

One option I'm thinking about is that I may move to Cox with a couple of S3 Tivos and place my DTV account on hold until Football season next year. Then I'll reactivate it just for ST and then place it on hold again next winter.

If, by the time the national HD rollout that DTV is promising comes to be, the HR20 is a reliable unit, I may reconsider.

DTV has also disappointed me over the last year.


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## Sah (Jul 17, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Welcome ozark!!!
> 
> One option I'm thinking about is that I may move to Cox with a couple of S3 Tivos and place my DTV account on hold until Football season next year. Then I'll reactivate it just for ST and then place it on hold again next winter.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Didn't know one could put their D* account on hold. We've only stuck with D* through this HR20 mess because of ST. Thanks for passing along the idea!


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Permit me to play Devil's Advocate intentionally for a second...

I wonder how many staunch HR20-700 defenders would be saying the same thing if this device was, say, a Microsoft problem frought with the same bugs, crashes, etc. Bill Gates's execution would be demanded, and PCs would be thrown out of windows nationwide.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Sah said:


> Interesting. Didn't know one could put their D* account on hold. We've only stuck with D* through this HR20 mess because of ST. Thanks for passing along the idea!


I believe you can for up to 9 months at a time. Just enough time to jump between ST seasons and use up your commitment.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> Permit me to play Devil's Advocate intentionally for a second...
> 
> I wonder how many staunch HR20-700 defenders would be saying the same thing if this device was, say, a Microsoft problem frought with the same bugs, crashes, etc. Bill Gates's execution would be demanded, and PCs would be thrown out of windows nationwide.


Microsoft seems to have security flaws monthly (if not more frequently). Aside from that - the analogy is not quite on target. First, Windows is used by many times the couple of hundred thousand people now using the HR20. It is also in many more important situations than recording/playing television shows. The potential for disaster is there when it comes to PC operating systems, I'm not aware of any catostrosphic issues raised by missing a TV show. This may sound flippant, but its not, its pointing out a major difference in the 2 scenarios you set up

Also, don't you remember the almost CONSTANT complaints regarding Windows 95? Micorsoft not only survived, its THRIVES. MUCH MORE mainstream discussion, affected 10's of MILLIONS of people. PC's crashed, etc.


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## JudgeSmails (Dec 14, 2006)

The horror stories of the HR20 have helped me make the decision to put my upgrade on hold. Yes, I understand that not all are bad. But enough are bad that I refuse to get locked into a 24 month commitment and spend $200 on a non-reliable, spotty leased product. I found this article to be excellent and very informative. I would like to thank the author for tackling the subject and challenging DirecTV. 

Folks, as consumers we have the right to demand quality and reliability. This box does not offer that. It is time we let our wallets do the talking for us. I for one, will do that. My next step is I am writing a letter to DirecTV explaining why I am holding off on my upgrade and why I am now entertaining offers for HD-DVRs from competitors. I want them to know that the bad press and true life user reports from sites like this (great site by the way) do matter and that I for one will not get sucked into a bad product. 

JS


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## richa65 (Dec 4, 2006)

Great article. That's pretty much been my experience as well, however, I would disagree with him on the quality of the UI. 

"No problem with the GUI. It delivers a very good picture. It even has a couple of advantages over the TiVo GUI."

Yeah, I think the way the GUI is laid out is extremely confusing. They could have patterned the UI after the best designed consumer electronics GUI that was ever created - TIVO. But they chose to roll their own. That was a brilliant move.

Side note: Does anyone know how to edit a "Wishlist" record setting after you have set up the wishlist? Best I can tell, it can't be done and the "help desk" at DTV basically confirmed this for me.


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## Xanaduce (Jan 15, 2007)

ScoBuck said:


> Microsoft seems to have security flaws monthly (if not more frequently). Aside from that - the analogy is not quite on target. First, Windows is used by many times the couple of hundred thousand people now using the HR20. It is also in many more important situations than recording/playing television shows. The potential for disaster is there when it comes to PC operating systems, I'm not aware of any catostrosphic issues raised by missing a TV show. This may sound flippant, but its not, its pointing out a major difference in the 2 scenarios you set up
> 
> Also, don't you remember the almost CONSTANT complaints regarding Windows 95? Micorsoft not only survived, its THRIVES. MUCH MORE mainstream discussion, affected 10's of MILLIONS of people. PC's crashed, etc.


First of all you should stay on topic. I work on M$ products all day, if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have a job that I could afford DirecTV. Second of all if you're going to bash someone's product get it straight. Windows 95, windows NT, windows 2000, windows XP, and soon to be windows vista are alll separate products. You also bash the internet when you bash Microsoft as they were the ones to develop TCP/IP which for the most part is a protocol that all OS use, or are capable of using including sun, novel, Linux, Unix, etc, etc. Might I also add when you you agree to the EULA, you are agreeing to the fact the product isn't perfect, and they shall update when they please. What DirecTV has done with the HR20 isn't anywhere near as as bad as M$, but you're not comparing apples to apples, and the two have no basis at all. When you agree to the EULA the first time the pc gets turned on, they say this is our world, you're restricted by our rules and do not venture outside of them. Now not everyone buys M$ certified hardware, or M$ software to run solely n their PC. I've been a System Administrator for a medium sized business for 8+ years, and as much as I hate M$ they have their act together for a workstation client better then the rest of the competitors. I am partially responsible for running a network with multiple software vendors application installed on every work station, 9/10's of the problem exist with programmers who had nothing to do with M$ and had no business coding a program to begin with. Trying to keep those programs working properly along with the fact someone in the world continuously violates the EULA's creating malicious software is just part of it. You whine too much, you accepted the agreement

I call shenanigans, on the grounds you are ignorant. People like you have no place to talk especially when you compare an apple to an orange. We all know the orange is much more messy then the apple, yet we eat it anyway. In your situation if you hate M$ so much quit using TCP/IP, oh wait you can't maybe we should sue M$ again for a monopoly and raise the cost that much more.

Back on topic: To me the sort of service they currently offer with the product.its not the end of the world if I miss a TV show, but it makes me a very disgruntled customer to pay for service DirecTV offers, and can not follow through on. in simple terms If I cant' watch something OK, but don't tell me you have a full proof way of not missing a show, and then miss it. Every once in a while I'll be upset but I'll get over it, but when the box continuously has the same issue over and over, and I'm not the only person maybe, just maybe they need to take the product off the market and replace it with a better one. No offense to everyone who bought this box like me, you got took for your money. And they can't live up to their contract on the boxes that refuse to work.

How the beginning of the post comes into play is the fact M$ eventually fixes the issues, and doesn't make you buy a new OS. I have a feeling DirecTV is going to make you pay for another piece of hardware later that will probably work better. Now I'm sorry I interrupted this conversation, but I don't care for the ramblings of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, and his IQ is shown plainly with his lack of knowledge, spelling, and grammar. If this makes me a post Nazi, I'll understand, but point proven that you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm going to resume my search for how to get a dual inlet Tivo to work with A or multiple Satellites as I'm not satisfied with what DirecTV offers since they left the HR10-250, and unfortunately you can't find one in very many places. If someone knows where to get one brand new, please PM with where.

Later,
Jerry Powell


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Wolffpack said:


> So did your HR20 pad it correctly?


I pad several hockey games a week by 30 minutes. Never had a problem with it.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

Xanaduce said:


> First of all you should stay on topic. Jerry Powell


First of all, I was Responding to the mention of MS, I did NOT bring it up. Second, I didn't bash MS, I stated as fact that there was/is LOTS of complaints about Win95. Thats not a bash, its simple FACT.

I never mentioned ANY other MS product, so I didn't mix any up. I said MS thrives - me thinks you need to re-read. BTW, I own lots of MS stock, it has made me lots of money in the 10 years I have owned it. But that doesn't mean they are perfect, they have almost monthly patches to their browser, and also to their OS. They respond quickly, and take appropriate action in all cases that I remember.


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## cbeckner80 (Apr 19, 2006)

ScoBuck said:


> First of all, I was Responding to the mention of MS, I did NOT bring it up. Second, I didn't bash MS, I stated as fact that there was/is LOTS of complaints about Win95. Thats not a bash, its simple FACT.
> 
> I never mentioned ANY other MS product, so I didn't mix any up. I said MS thrives - me thinks you need to re-read. BTW, I own lots of MS stock, it has made me lots of money in the 10 years I have owned it. But that doesn't mean they are perfect, they have almost monthly patches to their browser, and also to their OS. They respond quickly, and take appropriate action in all cases that I remember.


Good Response.:hurah:


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## genemcd (Dec 8, 2003)

Budget_HT said:


> I was gone from home when the Seahawks game ended, but I happened to be in Circuit City at that time, so I did not miss much (i saw the winning field goal and several plays before that).


HA! Now I know it wasn't me! I programmed my "DirecTV+" box to record the exact same game with 1 1/2 hour of extra pad and the box didn't record the pad! It only recorded the 3 hours that the guide alloted for the game. I watched the game on a different set and was looking forward to watching the dramatic end again...it wasn't there! (and please - no "are you sure you did it right?" replies!)

I'll tell you guys, we've got 5 old (SD) DirecTivos and we "leased" 2 R15 boxes last April. I do computer support work for a living and I like giving technology a chance but I'm the only one in the house that does. The rest of the family won't even trust the R15's because they've failed so much. Say what you will about the old DirecTivo boxes - ours have worked a lot better than the new boxes ever have. The rest of my family are not technophiles - they want their TV and they want it to work the way it's supposed to (especially the 74 year old mum-in-law). Even if I did give it a chance, I don't like hearing the belly-aching that goes on when mum's Rachel Ray didn't record right! I was calling DTV last August to get on the waiting list for the R20's and I wasn't content with the deal they were willing to offer me so I told them I'll wait. Man, after hearing what's going on with Rupert's boxes, I'm glad I didn't start the two year ticker over again.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

Xanaduce said:


> First of all you should stay on topic. I work on M$ products all day, if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have a job that I could afford DirecTV. Second of all if you're going to bash someone's product get it straight. Windows 95, windows NT, windows 2000, windows XP, and soon to be windows vista are alll separate products. You also bash the internet when you bash Microsoft as they were the ones to develop TCP/IP which for the most part is a protocol that all OS use, or are capable of using including sun, novel, Linux, Unix, etc, etc. Later,
> Jerry Powell


Wait a minute, last I checked, TCP/IP was developed by the defense department, not Microsoft. Microsoft is very rarely an inventor of technology, they are simply the best at adapting it to the mass computer market.

As for the 'Internet', we all know Al Gore invented that, not Microsoft...


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

richa65 said:


> Great article. That's pretty much been my experience as well, however, I would disagree with him on the quality of the UI.
> 
> "No problem with the GUI. It delivers a very good picture. It even has a couple of advantages over the TiVo GUI."
> 
> ...


Good point about the GUI. I like elements of both Tivo (which we still use) and the HR20, which I have pretty much mastered at this point (and for which I am the lone user in my household). But I also am a simple "record from the guide" type of user, and don't get into massive SL numbers (I only have one right now - Letterman), because my wife is sticking with Tivo for her shows (she watches all the network stuff). So my GUI/functionality needs are limited. I prefer the Tivo guide setup to the HR20 grid, and I like the Tivo search function better, but I like the HR20 window with programming while using the guide, the percentage of the available space meter (if it's accurate, not sure about that) and the one-touch record and SL features.

So you make a good point. There are more goods than bads with Tivo relative to the HR20, but the latter does have a couple of nice additions.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

BattleScott said:


> Wait a minute, last I checked, TCP/IP was developed by the defense department, not Microsoft. Microsoft is very rarely an inventor of technology, they are simply the best at adapting it to the mass computer market.
> 
> As for the 'Internet', we all know Al Gore invented that, not Microsoft...


Sure glad you pointed this out. Was wondering if someone was going to set this straight. The last thing I have seen Microsoft develope, they charged money for it.

I'm still waiting on Al to answer the question if the internet is what caused global warming...:lol:

Tstarn, did you happen to get the 119 for your HR20?
See any improvements worth mentioning?


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

BattleScott said:


> Wait a minute, last I checked, TCP/IP was developed by the defense department, not Microsoft.


More specifically, it was DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).


> Microsoft is very rarely an inventor of technology, they are simply the best at adapting it to the mass computer market.


Microsoft waits until all the bugs are worked out and "acquires" the technology through various means. You may recall that Microsoft borrowed their TCP/IP implementation from BSD without permission.

I'm quite sure that DirecTV has "acquired" a whole lot of NDS code by hook or by crook and seems to have tripped over most of its baggage.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Xanaduce said:


> First of all you should stay on topic. I work on M$ products all day, if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have a job that I could afford DirecTV. Second of all if you're going to bash someone's product get it straight. Windows 95, windows NT, windows 2000, windows XP, and soon to be windows vista are alll separate products. You also bash the internet when you bash Microsoft as they were the ones to develop TCP/IP which for the most part is a protocol that all OS use, or are capable of using including sun, novel, Linux, Unix, etc, etc. Might I also add when you you agree to the EULA, you are agreeing to the fact the product isn't perfect, and they shall update when they please. What DirecTV has done with the HR20 isn't anywhere near as as bad as M$, but you're not comparing apples to apples, and the two have no basis at all. When you agree to the EULA the first time the pc gets turned on, they say this is our world, you're restricted by our rules and do not venture outside of them. Now not everyone buys M$ certified hardware, or M$ software to run solely n their PC. I've been a System Administrator for a medium sized business for 8+ years, and as much as I hate M$ they have their act together for a workstation client better then the rest of the competitors. I am partially responsible for running a network with multiple software vendors application installed on every work station, 9/10's of the problem exist with programmers who had nothing to do with M$ and had no business coding a program to begin with. Trying to keep those programs working properly along with the fact someone in the world continuously violates the EULA's creating malicious software is just part of it. You whine too much, you accepted the agreement
> 
> I call shenanigans, on the grounds you are ignorant. People like you have no place to talk especially when you compare an apple to an orange. We all know the orange is much more messy then the apple, yet we eat it anyway. In your situation if you hate M$ so much quit using TCP/IP, oh wait you can't maybe we should sue M$ again for a monopoly and raise the cost that much more.
> 
> ...


It's good that MS provides you with your income. Let's hope you continue to be successful with them. However, let's admit it: the first time Microsoft makes something that _doesn't_ suck, they'll call it a vacuum cleaner.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

JudgeSmails said:


> The horror stories of the HR20 have helped me make the decision to put my upgrade on hold. Yes, I understand that not all are bad. But enough are bad that I refuse to get locked into a 24 month commitment and spend $200 on a non-reliable, spotty leased product. I found this article to be excellent and very informative. I would like to thank the author for tackling the subject and challenging DirecTV.
> 
> Folks, as consumers we have the right to demand quality and reliability. This box does not offer that. It is time we let our wallets do the talking for us. I for one, will do that. My next step is I am writing a letter to DirecTV explaining why I am holding off on my upgrade and why I am now entertaining offers for HD-DVRs from competitors. I want them to know that the bad press and true life user reports from sites like this (great site by the way) do matter and that I for one will not get sucked into a bad product.
> 
> JS


Smart move (not getting the HR20 yet). In a weird way, I sort of feel sorry for the rank and file professionals who have been stuck trying to fix the HR20, when the blame really falls on senior management. No matter how this entire mess came about (and it is a mess, just read the current release candidate issue thread), someone's head should roll.

Directv now has an HR20 customer base that falls into several categories, ranging from the "I have never had a single problem" crew to the "this thing sucks" crowd - with several degrees of emotions/experiences in-between. At least now they are using the limited release candidate strategy, letting those who want to download the new "fixes" do so at their own peril. But what about all the poor people whose HR20s weren't fixed by the latest national release back on 12/15 (or were made even worse), and who have no idea when the next "national release" will arrive to make things right? The senior citizens or soccer moms who have no idea why their HR20 has got a black screen, or the instant keep delete bug.

Based on what I have read on the "issues" and "discussion" threads so far with 119, this isn't going to be "the one" that makes it all better. At least not in its current state. I hope I am wrong, believe me. but it doesn't look too promising. The whole thing smells more like a mad scramble to fix something with no idea how to do it, all being done in an atmosphere of chaos. Not good. Maybe I am overstating the case, but I don't think so somehow. Again, if we are seeing the same things in May or June, then the great debate will become a non-debate. My hope, even if it proves me wrong, is that Directv gets the HR20 fixed for everyone way before that timeframe. But it's now going on five months and counting, and still no resolution.


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

Xanaduce said:


> First of all you should stay on topic. I work on M$ products all day, if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have a job that I could afford DirecTV. Second of all if you're going to bash someone's product get it straight. Windows 95, windows NT, windows 2000, windows XP, and soon to be windows vista are alll separate products. You also bash the internet when you bash Microsoft as they were the ones to develop TCP/IP which for the most part is a protocol that all OS use, or are capable of using including sun, novel, Linux, Unix, etc, etc. Might I also add when you you agree to the EULA, you are agreeing to the fact the product isn't perfect, and they shall update when they please. What DirecTV has done with the HR20 isn't anywhere near as as bad as M$, but you're not comparing apples to apples, and the two have no basis at all. When you agree to the EULA the first time the pc gets turned on, they say this is our world, you're restricted by our rules and do not venture outside of them. Now not everyone buys M$ certified hardware, or M$ software to run solely n their PC. I've been a System Administrator for a medium sized business for 8+ years, and as much as I hate M$ they have their act together for a workstation client better then the rest of the competitors. I am partially responsible for running a network with multiple software vendors application installed on every work station, 9/10's of the problem exist with programmers who had nothing to do with M$ and had no business coding a program to begin with. Trying to keep those programs working properly along with the fact someone in the world continuously violates the EULA's creating malicious software is just part of it. You whine too much, you accepted the agreement
> 
> I call shenanigans, on the grounds you are ignorant. People like you have no place to talk especially when you compare an apple to an orange. We all know the orange is much more messy then the apple, yet we eat it anyway. In your situation if you hate M$ so much quit using TCP/IP, oh wait you can't maybe we should sue M$ again for a monopoly and raise the cost that much more.
> 
> ...


Microsoft didn't develop TCP/IP. It's not even related to them. DARPA created and developed TCP/IP. Get your facts straight. Microsoft was just getting off the ground when TCP/IP was created. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start screaming holy murder. I bet you think M$ also created the Internet...lmao!

Thanks for listing your name. I know who I'll never let sys admin my systems ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tcp/ip


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## MoonBear (Nov 11, 2006)

Araxen said:


> Microsoft didn't develop TCP/IP. It's not even related to them. DARPA created and developed TCP/IP. Get your facts straight. Microsoft was just getting off the ground when TCP/IP was created. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start screaming holy murder. I bet you think M$ also created the Internet...lmao!
> 
> Thanks for listing your name. I know who I'll never let sys admin my systems ever.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tcp/ip


I thought Al Gore created the internet? :lol:


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> Sure glad you pointed this out. Was wondering if someone was going to set this straight. The last thing I have seen Microsoft develope, they charged money for it.
> 
> I'm still waiting on Al to answer the question if the internet is what caused global warming...:lol:
> 
> ...


Interesting ... the myth still lives. Al Gore never claimed to invent the internet, but if people are willing to pass on the myth, I guess some people will be gullible enough to believe he said it.


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## Araxen (Dec 18, 2005)

purtman said:


> Interesting ... the myth still lives. Al Gore never claimed to invent the internet, but if people are willing to pass on the myth, I guess some people will be gullible enough to believe he said it.


The myth is just an overused joke...like Quayle and potato spelling...Bush and the "internets"


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Besides, Al Gore was the father of the Internet. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> Sure glad you pointed this out. Was wondering if someone was going to set this straight. The last thing I have seen Microsoft develope, they charged money for it.
> 
> I'm still waiting on Al to answer the question if the internet is what caused global warming...:lol:
> 
> ...


Tell you the truth, my mysterious HR20 is back to acting normal again (except for regular audio/video dropouts on the HD channels, MPEG2 and 4). It's still annoying, especially for programming where the dialogue matters (unlike sports). But no, I did not download 119 and I won't risk it. When they force it on me, not much I can do. I am running the 12/15 download, can't remember the number. I'm not of the beta tester bent for this particular situation.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

purtman said:


> Interesting ... the myth still lives. Al Gore never claimed to invent the internet, but if people are willing to pass on the myth, I guess some people will be gullible enough to believe he said it.


"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."
- Al Gore, March 1999

He exaggerated his importance or involvement for his own political gain. Then the usual 'out of context' political responses ensued. Politics as usual, but certainly not a myth...


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

BattleScott said:


> "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."
> - Al Gore, March 1999
> 
> He exaggerated his importance or involvement for his own political gain. Then the usual 'out of context' political responses ensued. Politics as usual, but certainly not a myth...


As I said, he never claimed to be the father of the internet. However, check out these other quotes:
_* Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President (Al Gore) in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."

The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."

Joseph E. Traub, a computer science professor at Columbia University, claims that Gore "was perhaps the first political leader to grasp the importance of networking the country. Could we perhaps see an end to cheap shots from politicians and pundits about inventing the Internet?"*_

So can people stop spreading the myths?


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

purtman said:


> ... So can people stop spreading the myths?


You mean like the myth that the HR20 actually works for some people? (Just trying to get us back on topic...)


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> You mean like the myth that the HR20 actually works for some people? (Just trying to get us back on topic...)


Talk about posts SPECIFICALLY meant to inflame the thread! Or in your opinion is the topic about flaming people?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ScoBuck said:


> Talk about posts SPECIFICALLY meant to inflame the thread! Or in your opinion is the topic about flaming people?


I guess he was trying to get us to "Lighten up, Francis" using the glow of the raging flames 

Of course, using dark humor to stoke flames has an interesting sense of irony...
Tom


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

One thing related to Directv that Gore DID do was kill the News World International channel!


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

richa65 said:


> Side note: Does anyone know how to edit a "Wishlist" record setting after you have set up the wishlist? Best I can tell, it can't be done and the "help desk" at DTV basically confirmed this for me.


I was going to ask the same...I grabbed a 'record all showings' of a series that I ended up not liking and there it is on my Priorities list. Can't see any way to get rid of it.


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

Xanaduce said:


> You also bash the internet when you bash Microsoft as they were the ones to develop TCP/IP which for the most part is a protocol that all OS use, or are capable of using including sun, novel, Linux, Unix, etc, etc.


whoa, M$ did NOT develop TCP/IP, it was developed in the early 70's by the internet fathers (Robert Kahn and Vincent Cerf). As I recall, M$ was late to add an IP stack to Windows, it certainly was not part of Windows 3.1. Of the OS's that you list, Sun would have been the earliest adapter of TCP/IP.

we now return to our regularly scheduled broadcast


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

purtman said:


> As I said, he never claimed to be the father of the internet. However, check out these other quotes:
> _* Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President (Al Gore) in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."
> 
> The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."
> ...


All this from the same man who, on his way to being inaugurated in 1993, stopped at Jefferson's home in Virginia for a tour, and when walking through the rotunda that is bordered with the busts of the Founding Fathers, Gore asks sincerely, "Who are these people?"


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> All this from the same man who, on his way to being inaugurated in 1993, stopped at Jefferson's home in Virginia for a tour, and when walking through the rotunda that is bordered with the busts of the Founding Fathers, Gore asks sincerely, "Who are these people?"


Does this mean with all of the Al Gore bashing that the HR20 is now working better?


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

That depends on just how badly George W. Bush has damaged the environment through this all this so-called global warming BS.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

I'd say this thread has run it's course or....:backtotop


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I'd say this thread has run it's course or....:backtotop


Yeah, I guess the debate has raged itself out. For now...


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## purtman (Sep 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Yeah, I guess the debate has raged itself out. For now...


I agree Tstarn. My comment about the maybe the HR20 doing a little better was half in jest about the Al Gore slams, but in truth about the HR20 doing a little better. I hadn't seen many slams against the machine itself.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Here's one, then: the HR20 causes global warming. Too many people get so heated regarding its troubles that they are helping to melt the polar ice caps.

There. 'Nuff said.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2007)

Herdfan said:


> The HR20 didn't put them in the dilema, Rupert Murdoch did. The HR20 is just the result.
> 
> As for moving on, RM called D* a Turd Bird and traded it to John Malone So the one person that is repsonsible for this mess has done an "Elvis" and has left the building.


Murdoch spent years trying to get control of DTV, only to decide afterward that he didn't want it. He soured on the satellite business because it couldn't offer the bundled services the cable companies are offering. That could prove to be shortsighted. If DTV is able to roll out all of the HD content they are promising, cable subscribers could once again be switching over to satellite in droves, just as they were in the middle to late '90s when satellite systems were offering a ton of new channels that weren't available on cable.


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

purtman said:


> I agree Tstarn. My comment about the maybe the HR20 doing a little better was half in jest about the Al Gore slams, but in truth about the HR20 doing a little better. I hadn't seen many slams against the machine itself.


Yeah, not as many POS/POC posts of late. Guess we'll find out soon enough, if the latest download resolves nearly everyone's HR20 issues. On the flip side, there seems to be a lot of niggling problems still showing up in the 119 threads. Mine is back to working again (still on 10B). If and when the bug/issue reports screeching to a halt, it will all be good.

Now, they have to work on getting rid of the audio/video dropouts still in evidence on my MPEG2 and 4 channels here in Philly (and on the NYC feeds as well), which will really mean Directv has got it down. Funny, just as I typed that line, my local news, which in HD, had pixelation and sound buzzing for 2-3 secs. Problem is, not sure if its the HR20, the local station, or what. HD certainly isn't perfect yet.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tstarn said:


> Problem is, not sure if its the HR20, the local station, or what. HD certainly isn't perfect yet.


Check out your local HDTV thread over on AVSForum. See if others are reporting OTA problems. If not, it's DTVs problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=620626


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## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Check out your local HDTV thread over on AVSForum. See if others are reporting OTA problems. If not, it's DTVs problem.
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=620626


Good thread, thanks. But I realized I answered my own question. I get those dropouts on MPEG2 feeds as well (NYC network feeds, ESPN-HD, etc.), which eliminates it just being a local HD problem.

As for OTA, I don't have a prayer on the OTA front, based on where I live (in the historical area, which means there are tons of buildings, etc. blocking my tower access). And I don't feel like spending all that time and money putting another antenna on my roof (which may not work). I wish I could get OTA, though.


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## Citivas (Oct 25, 2006)

Araxen said:


> Microsoft didn't develop TCP/IP. It's not even related to them. DARPA created and developed TCP/IP. Get your facts straight. Microsoft was just getting off the ground when TCP/IP was created. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start screaming holy murder. I bet you think M$ also created the Internet...lmao!
> 
> Thanks for listing your name. I know who I'll never let sys admin my systems ever.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tcp/ip


You're right aout MS having nothing to do with TCP/IP, but the Wiki article on it gives too much credit to DARPA and Vinton Cerf. DARPA was really just the military funding vehicle for work that was almost all done at Universities by professors and grad students getting grants from the miltary. So I guess its fair to say the miltary bankrolled the development of the apranet (precursor to the Internet) and TCP/IP, but they didn't hands-on develop it. And its pretty widely known that Cerf has been given way to much credit for the initial APRANET development, for sure because he and the companies he subsequently worked for did a brilliant marketing effort, but I've always supsected it was also because his name was so cool... Anyway, Cerf was actually one of many grad students at UCLA in the late 60's working as a team on the project that led to the first package exchanges between UCLA and (memory serves it was Stanford, but it may have been Berkeley)...


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Good thread, thanks. But I realized I answered my own question. I get those dropouts on MPEG2 feeds as well (NYC network feeds, ESPN-HD, etc.), which eliminates it just being a local HD problem.
> 
> As for OTA, I don't have a prayer on the OTA front, based on where I live (in the historical area, which means there are tons of buildings, etc. blocking my tower access). And I don't feel like spending all that time and money putting another antenna on my roof (which may not work). I wish I could get OTA, though.


Ever since I got the HR20 I've had OTA feeds run either direct to the TV or through the HR20. For a while I was getting frequent bluescreens and audio problems on NBC stations, and I could put the OTA feed and the MPEG4 feed side by side (through the PIP feature of the TV, don't go thinking it's possible with the HR20) and the dropouts were almost always present on the OTA feed.

The most recent time I had serious, serious problems with dropouts and bluescreens was a football game about 2 months ago when it was later revealed that the broadcast truck had iced over, causing problems for the whole country.

My point is just that it's right to hold DirecTV accountable for issues with its own hardware, but as far as encoding or transmission issues from the source, that's another thing altogether. All they can do is try to keep that stuff from freezing or rebooting the device.


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## BattleScott (Aug 29, 2006)

purtman said:


> As I said, he never claimed to be the father of the internet. However, check out these other quotes:
> _* Vincent Cerf, a senior vice president with MCI Worldcom who's been called the Father of the Internet, "The Internet would not be where it is in the United States without the strong support given to it and related research areas by the Vice President (Al Gore) in his current role and in his earlier role as Senator."
> 
> The inventor of the Mosaic Browser, Marc Andreesen, credits Gore with making his work possible. He received a federal grant through Gore's High Performance Computing Act. The University of Pennsylvania's Dave Ferber says that without Gore the Internet "would not be where it is today."
> ...


As I said, he intentionally exaggerated his importance in the process for political posturing. He got called on the matt for it in the usual over the top political reponses. But the 'exaggerated' responses that he claimed to 'invent the internet' are no more suspect than his own exaggerated statements of involvment. 
As for the statements of support, they speak to his willingness to distribute our tax dollars freely in exchange for political support. If that makes a politician great, then we are surrounded by greatness...

That's all I have to say about this topinc in this forum as it does not belong here. PM if you wish...


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2007)

nikwax said:


> whoa, M$ did NOT develop TCP/IP, it was developed in the early 70's by the internet fathers (Robert Kahn and Vincent Cerf). As I recall, M$ was late to add an IP stack to Windows, it certainly was not part of Windows 3.1. Of the OS's that you list, Sun would have been the earliest adapter of TCP/IP.


You're right. Microsoft didn't even include networking in Windows until the release of Windows for Workgroups in 1993. Their idea of a networking protocol was NetBEUI, which wasn't even routable. And their concept of name resolution was WINS, which was essentially a Microsoft Access database that used a flat namespace. It didn't even scale up to a medium-size enterprise, let alone the Internet.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

Alright already, enough with the IP, NetBeui, NetBios, SDLC, etc garbage. Back on topic please, if you want to continue how about PM'ing each other PLEASE


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

I guess what gets me is that...in the space of 75 days....DirecTV has gone from a reliable television provider to something to be hassled with every single day, and all this began the day the HR20 walked in the door. 

October 31 - the HR20 and new dish are installed, the dish on the roof. Bad mistake on the second part of that.

December 20 - HR10 starts booting...and booting...and booting...the other two DirecTivos join the reboot dance the next day.

December 27 - after numerous red button resets, a replacement HR20 walks in the door and is set up. Next day...it requires multiple RBRs. The next day...it is returned to DirecTV and the original HR20 goes into the closet, replaced by a DirecTivo.

January 15 - large ice storm hits Austin, coating the roof-mounted dish that no one can access. Yes, I shouldn't have allowed the "installer" (who botched other parts of the install as well) to put it there.


When you put them all together it adds up to one thing...for the first time, I find myself reading the 622 forums to see whether it is a viable alternative. Now, I understand that new subs can get one free and I find I can purchase a second one for about $350. Not lease, purchase. On top of that, the Dish 1000 mounts on a standard pole that I can put in the yard or on the side of the house, within easy reaching distance.

Jeez, Direct, how did it go so bad.............so fast?


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## dhaakenson (Jan 14, 2007)

mnassour said:


> ... Jeez, Direct, how did it go so bad.............so fast?


Not sure, but based on previous posts, I'm now convinced it's Al Gore's fault. 

I have the same question, but specifically regarding the HR20 (I fortunately haven't had probs with the TiVos and definitely not suffered an ice storm).

Perhaps with Murdoch's departure, DirecTv will see the folly of its less-than-consistent DVR rollout and return to TiVo. The best way to make them understand is to call and offer a truthful account about your woes. Ask to talk with a supervisor. Seek to quit service (and back it up if given the option to drop out before the end of your 2-year commitment). When companies charge for a flawed device/service, they should expect to hear about it and be prepared to deal with the fallout. The more who call, the more they will get the message. A few postings/rants on a message board pale when compared with hitting them where it counts. Loss of $$$ often spurs a more meaningful result.

Yes, an unquantified number of people have reported troublefree or nearly troublefree HR20s. And, an unquantified number of people have reported problems, and rate them from minor to serious. Only DirecTv knows how many people have reported legitimate problems. Based on buyer feedback from a number of different sites, the number of negative reports (my opinion) seems higher than usual for a device. And I'm a firm believer that where there's smoke, there's fire.

The quickest way to convince a company that the negative reports are real is to call them and hit them in the pocketbook.

Anyone who has a sound HR20 should encourage those with flawed devices to seek a cure, as this would only strengthen DirecTv's service and products for us all.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2007)

mnassour said:


> October 31 - the HR20 and new dish are installed, the dish on the roof. Bad mistake on the second part of that.
> 
> December 20 - HR10 starts booting...and booting...and booting...the other two DirecTivos join the reboot dance the next day.
> 
> ...


The reason for installing it on the roof is that it needs a line of sight to different locations in the sky in order to see all of the different satellites that have the HD content. My dish had to be moved from the side of my house to the roof in order to get all of the HD channels.


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## ScoBuck (Mar 5, 2006)

dhaakenson said:


> Anyone who has a sound HR20 should encourage those with flawed devices to seek a cure, as this would only strengthen DirecTv's service and products for us all.


Go get 'em - seek a cure!


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

rcoleman111 said:


> The reason for installing it on the roof is that it needs a line of sight to different locations in the sky in order to see all of the different satellites that have the HD content. My dish had to be moved from the side of my house to the roof in order to get all of the HD channels.


Well, in my case it was different. I should have been able to do a lower mount as I am fortunate enough to have an adequate southern exposure, but it would have been a bit trickier. But I let an installer run roughshod over me. That won't happen again...and I hope it's a lesson to others as well.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

mnassour said:


> Well, in my case it was different. I should have been able to do a lower mount as I am fortunate enough to have an adequate southern exposure, but it would have been a bit trickier. But I let an installer run roughshod over me. That won't happen again...and I hope it's a lesson to others as well.


Some folks just forget that the customer us supposed to be right. I didn't have any issue with mine, I told him where I wanted the dish and the switch, no problem. Felt sorry for him since there was a bunch of work in the attic and it was one of those 100 degeree days when he was here.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

mnassour said:


> Well, in my case it was different. I should have been able to do a lower mount as I am fortunate enough to have an adequate southern exposure, but it would have been a bit trickier. But I let an installer run roughshod over me. That won't happen again...and I hope it's a lesson to others as well.


It's hard to understand why the installer would put the dish on the roof if he didn't have to. It's a lot of extra work to do that. Are you sure there was a line of sight to all 5 satellite locations from the ground level?

My old dish was mounted at ground level on the side of the house, which worked fine for all of the existing SD channels, but my old Dish network dish had to be mounted on the roof. When I had my DTV system upgraded to HD last month and they installed the newer elliptical dish that is needed to point to all of the satellites, I had a feeling some of the tall pine trees in our neighborhood might cause a problem. I mentioned to the installer that he might have to mount it on the roof , but he just ignored me and mounted in on the side of the house. After he left, I found that I wasn't getting any of the channels on the 119 satellite.

A second installer came out a few days later and moved the dish to the roof, which corrected the problem, but there was a lot more work involved. It took him about two hours to climb up there on a ladder, remove the old dish and install the new one, but he did the job right and everything has worked fine since then.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

rcoleman111 said:


> It's hard to understand why the installer would put the dish on the roof if he didn't have to.


Yeah, I agree. Most of them seem to do it as a last resort...but perhaps the installer doesn't like to do pole mounts (or didn't bring a pole with him). Nothing that happens with a D* install would surprise me anymore.


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## mnassour (Apr 23, 2002)

Yea, I'm really sure that he just didn't want to do a pole mount. I wonder....if I agreed to a two year extension if D* would set me up with a pole mount for free? I certainly have all the hardware I need.


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## ncc_dtvsub (Dec 16, 2006)

All: I take time here to write this to share my DTV experiences. I am a long time subscriber who only had brief interruption in DTV's service to me a few years ago (due to a move where DTV could not provide service directly). Overall, I am happy with both the HR20 and DTV. 

In all the years I have used DTV, I have only had issues with some of the contacted installers (one refused to go onto my tile roof, others just took a long time - weeks - to schedule installs or upgrades). I have never had an issue with DTV that was not handled to my satisfaction, thought at times I escalated to the customer retention department. 

I currently have several DTV receivers, now all HD, and including 2 HR20s. I did have to have DTV replace a HR20 as it would continue to have problems recording on both tuners. While I lost my recored F1 races, replacing the unit was rather painless. Since then I have only had the same basic problems as everyone else - audio drop out and black screen. However, I have found that when I experience the audio drop out, I can simply back up a few seconds and watch it as a recorded program which does not seem to suffer the audio drop out. The black screen is a pain, but if you are recoding the program it is there to watch when you come back. The only other problem I have seen is related to NFL Sunday ticket where the software DTV is adding causes the SD picture to go to 'stretch' mode which made it pretty unwatchable. I called on several occasion and DVT could not identify the problem to fix, though it was clear that it was a software glitch related to DTV NFL software overlay. After playing with the remote I found that pressing the Exit button several times it would go back to SD mode with bars. No a big deal, but I hope this is fixed for next year (or better yet all games are in HD  ) 

There are still a few HR20 pet peeves that Ill bet everyone else has as well: (1) The HR20 boots way to slow. Fixing this should be a priority. (2) It would be great to be able to get recordings off the HR20 and onto a DVD recording in a non-linear way. (3) Being able to use the internal AND external dives at the same time would be preferred. (4) The USB port should be activated for adding storage as well as networking. 

My experiences.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

ncc_dtvsub, thanks for sharing. (mean that seriously.)

Cheers,
Tom


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