# Mecum auctions on Discovery HD Theater phoney



## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

Video removed


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## Galaxie6411 (Aug 26, 2007)

Actually that is a very common practice especially on items with a reserve. Usually the auction company will even have a buyers number they use so people won't necessarily even know it was a no sale. Same as if the owner bid up the car himself.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Deceptive practices, otherwise known as shilling. No different than a trader bidding up the price of a stock with the expectation of selling off at a higher price, except that is illegal.


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## Galaxie6411 (Aug 26, 2007)

There is nothing illegal about it that's why. The car had a reserve I am sure and apparently it was not met. When anything has a reserve the auction company can and will bring the price up to the reserve if at all possible. You obviously have no clue as to how auctions work.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

> *Under federal law, you're required to advertise your product or service and the terms of the sale honestly and accurately.* You can't place "shill" bids on your item to boost the price or offer false testimonials about yourself in the comment section of Internet auction sites.
> 
> Federal Trade Commission (under _Tips for Sellers... Know Your Legal Obligations_ near the bottom of the page)


In my opinion, bidding up to the reserve price is deceptive. If you're not getting bids then you're not getting bids ... be honest. Shill bidding beyond the reserve price is fraud. At least below reserve there is no sale and no victim.

I'd love to see the auction price cut back to the reserve or last bid before the last shill bid when this is discovered (even if additional real bids are received). There needs to be a penalty for deception and fraud.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> I wonder why the Feds or state authorities where the auction took place didn't look into this more. Discovery should disassociate themselves with this crooked auction house.


One, you don't watch auctions much. This happens all the time. If anything was going on that was illegal or shady do you think mecum would have let them film it or even put it on the broadcast?

Two, Mecum is known, and if you watched more you would know this, for both protecting his Sellers and his Buyers. This time he was protecting a Buyer, and if there had been active bidders, he wouldn't have done it.

As for shill bids, Mecum doesn't Bid, this wasn't the owner or somebody else trying to run up the Bid, this was the Auction house using its descretion on an item. Very different, and there were no active bids. Mecum brought it up to the Reserve to bring some action, as bidding happens more when the reserve is off, or has been meet, and sellers know the item will sell. Mecum didn't charge the Seller either.
That video is a prime example of why you need to watch the entire episode, or the entire process for that car, it was explained why it happened, and this happens all the time, with all sorts of Auction houses.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

There are a lot of illegal activities that, as you say, "happen all the time". Bidding up by a shill is, at _the very least_, a deceptive practice and should not be permitted by a "reputable" broker. On the other hand, Mecum is, after all, in the _used car_ business and everyone knows what sterling reputations used car dealers have.


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## coldsteel (Mar 29, 2007)

Plus, does this belong in the Dish HD section? Looks like it'd belong in TV Talk...


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Nick said:


> There are a lot of illegal activities that, as you say, "happen all the time". Bidding up by a shill is, at _the very least_, a deceptive practice and should not be permitted by a "reputable" broker. On the other hand, Mecum is, after all, in the _used car_ business and everyone knows what sterling reputations used car dealers have.


Bidding up is Wrong, and bidding like that would be a Shill as defined in several posts. Problem is you don't see the entire auction segment, and some people aren't listening to the very little bit of the video. THERE were no bids, this was a Vendor bid.

_Term vendor bid has to do with activity at a live or online auction. In this scenario, the auctioneer is authorized to make a bid on behalf of the vendor(in this Case Mecum Auctions). Usually, this is a strategy that is intended to stimulate interest in the item that is up for bid, and encourage other attendees at the auction to begin placing their own bids on the item. In some cases, the bid may be placed as a tool to drive up the amount of the current highest bid, although the use of a vendor bid for this purpose is often discouraged_.

Since there were ZERO bids, there was no "Shill" going on. Vendor Bids are Legal, nothing shady about them at all. It would have been Shady if Mecum had done a Vendor bid to Raise the price against, Active Bidders, but since there were ZERO active Bidders, doing a Vendor Bid to remove the Reserve off, and encourage interest in the Car, is just good business, for Mecum and his Seller.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

What would be your impression of an auction if no bids were received for an item?
If the auction company cannot generate a single bid then they are not doing a good job.

Self generating a bid to demonstrate interest that does not exist _is_ deceptive.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

_Captain Mecum Renault:_ I'm shocked, shocked to find that shilling is going on in here!


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## Galaxie6411 (Aug 26, 2007)

You don't go to auctions much if at all then. If the interest doesn't exist then that phantom bid hurt absolutely no one because the item will not sell. I think people watch Barrett Jackson and think every auction is no reserve and do not understand the dynamics at all. Your quote referred to an internet auction, go to any on site auction and people will and can bid their own stuff up. Either they will end up paying some amount of money for the no sale or someone else will buy the item at a price they were comfortable with in the end. In reality it is no different than putting reserve on the item.

An auction company can generate a bid for anything, but they have to go to ridiculously low prices and waste valuable time messing around at a price level that is so far below reserve it will never sell. If you think this clip is the most heinous thing you have ever seen you'd shoot yourself in the head if you went to a farm or hay auction and saw what went on.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Some folks in this thread should never go to auctions, even those at major auction houses. Auctions are wild and woolly affairs, where pieces are presented, bid upon and then sold in a matter of seconds. The whole process is designed to sow confusion and uncertainty. Deception is a tool of the auctioneer. You usually don't really know the history of what you are bidding on. It is a seller's market, not a buyer's one, and the neophyte who raises his paddle or hand in a moment of doubt will often find they have just purchased something that two minutes before, they had no intention of owning.

The best advice for attending an auction is to go with certainty and a purpose. Before you walk in the building, be looking for just a few specific items, or even better, just one piece. An auction is not a place to go shopping. You will get eaten alive.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> If you only knew how silly your response is not knowing anything about me.
> 
> Here's the quote:
> 
> ...


You need to look up the term Vendor Bid. You will not find a SINGLE auction house that does English Auctions(a English Auction is an open ascending price auction) that doesn't do Vendor Bid's. Its part of the business. Doing a Vendor Bid is no more dishonest than it is to talk somebody to removing the Reserve when the price gets close to speed up the bidding. High Reserves price in a auction can cause bidding to be slow. Auction houses make NO money unless the item sells.
Once the reserve is removed or met, the auction for an item usually picks up.
You really need to research how Auctions work, and the Rules that govern how an Auction House works. YOUR posts here and your denial of how things work really makes me doubt you know more about auctions than most people here, let alone somebody who's Grandafather Runs 2 of the largest NW Machinery and Car Auctions, and has done so, since 1973. Learn the Terms, learn how a Auction house makes money, learn the bid process. A vendor bid for a owner or against Bidders, yes that would be wrong. Vendor Bid to jump start the bidding or to me a reserve auction price is NORMAL.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> Some folks in this thread should never go to auctions, even those at major auction houses. Before you walk in the building, be looking for just a few specific items, or even better, just one piece. An auction is not a place to go shopping. You will get eaten alive.


Edit original post.

Before going into a Auction, go before hand, and inspect. Rather its the day before or the morning of. NEVER go alone to an Auction, and make sure your counter part, knows your ceiling price on a item before, you start bidding, and you know thier ceiling prices. Auctions are all about fast paced action, and try to catch you up in action of it. Auctions are a great place to shop. You just have to know what you are doing before hand.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)

Totally agreed about going the day ahead and examining the merchandise. Then you can shop. I collect antique paperweights. I've found some nice buys by going a day ahead and then lying in the grass during the auction, buying just what I wanted. Nice correction, GrumpyBear. 

I've never thought about having your companion being your stop at an auction. I've always gone with someone else because I'm a big chicken. I usually don't bid too much because I don't want to look like an idiot to them. Still, I've also learned the hard way to sit on my hands. I own a couple of really crappy paperweights.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Carl Spock said:


> Totally agreed about going the day ahead and examining the merchandise. Then you can shop. I collect antique paperweights. I've found some nice buys by going a day ahead and then lying in the grass during the auction, buying just what I wanted. Nice correction, GrumpyBear.
> 
> I've never thought about having your companion being your stop at an auction. I've always gone with someone else because I'm a big chicken. I usually don't bid too much because I don't want to look like an idiot to them. Still, I've also learned the hard way to sit on my hands. I own a couple of really crappy paperweights.


Sitting on my hands is the HARDEST thing to do. When I was younger my dad would just thump me. I am bigger now, so we thump each other, to keep each other in check. Having your partner, (and who goes alone?) know your price, helps as when you go over they ask you why? If you can't explain to them why, you get that sheepish look and stop bidding. Or at least I do.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Galaxie6411 said:


> Your quote referred to an internet auction, go to any on site auction and people will and can bid their own stuff up. Either they will end up paying some amount of money for the no sale or someone else will buy the item at a price they were comfortable with in the end. In reality it is no different than putting reserve on the item.


When the FTC says something is illegal, I'll take _their_ word for it.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> You are completely wrong. You maybe shouldn't talk about things you don't know about so definitively so as to leave no doubt about your lack of actual knowledge. You've obviously never been in the business or with a real and reputable auction house. Until you do, maybe you should talk about things you actually know about.


Please Explain why there is an industry term in the Auction Business Called Vendor Bid.
Please define this process and explain how a vendor bid is anything other than, generating interest in the item.
Please explain how a Vendor bid, a Acution industry practice, is dishonest in anyway shape or form, when it is used, when there are no current bids going on.
If you are really involved with, or know anything about Auctions, you would be more upset with Mecum for discounting thier commission to help make a sale, and make people think they can get other auction houses do the samething.


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## Carl Spock (Sep 3, 2004)




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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

_Touché!_

The definitive post on this topic. Well done, *ebaltz*.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> Only shady, fly-by-night auctions do business using practices such as your so-called "vendor bid". The only true auction is a no reserve auction. All others are just fake, and bidders should be aware of that. Never bid, register to bid or otherwise participate in reserve auctions or ones who use "vendor bid".
> 
> A car, or anything for that matter is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. "But I put $100k into my car so it must be worth more than that!" Nope, it is only worth what someone will pay for it. If you don't like that fact of the world, then you shouldn't be buying and selling cars or restoring them.
> 
> Lesson to be learned from anyone wishing to buy a collector car at auction, only deal with no reserve auction companies, stay away from places like Mecum. Caveat Emptor


Very nice private message, Eblatz. Well as for who I am, I am somebody who knows how real auctions work. You from your posts and private message are somebody who doesn't know how auctions work, and just have some sort of Ax to grind. Just say you don't like Mecum, thats pretty easy to do. Just say you have no idea what a Vendor Bid is, and just say you don't know much about high end acution, and are more proficent in, in repo, crashed, towed away Auctions for items.

As for staying away from Auction houses that have Reserve pricing, you will be very, very, very, limited on you Acution places. I would be scared to go to acution houses that had no reserves as that would mean very clearly, people have done Zero appraisels before hand, and there are few or NO subject experts to rate an item. Even low end consignment acutions have reserve pricing, so wake up and smell the coffee, or go back to the tow yard, steal all the useable parts, and then auction off your cars.

Oh and please stay away from, the following, Shady, fly by night acution houses. All have reserve prices and all use VENDOR BID's. When you registar for real auctions, you are informed of the house rules and in the house rules you will see clearly printed, Reserve Pricing and how it works, and the houses right to use Vendor Bid's.
Christies
Sotheby's
Skinners
Doyle's
Bonham and Butterfield's
Heritage 
Susanina's Auctions
DuMouchelle Auction Galleries
Kruse Auction
Bunte Auction Services
Stanton's
Tom Harris Marshall Town
Leslie Hindman Auctioneers
LelandLittle Auction and Estate Sales
John Moran Auctioneers Inc.
Priddy's Auction Galleries
Forsythes' Auctions

Avoid These Fly by night, and Shady Car Auction houses sites as well. As they also use reserve pricing and use vendor bids. Both of which are clearly written on the rules when you registar and supply your info for bidding. 
The Blackhawk Collection 
The Auction Inc 
Kruse International 
Barrett-Jackson Classic Car Auctions 
Keith McCormick's Palm Springs Auction 
Mecum Auctions 
Russo and Steele Collector Automobile Auctions 
Manheim Auctions Leake Auction Company 
Artcurial Bonhams 
H & H British Car Auctions 
Barons RM Auctions


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

GrumpyBear said:


> Avoid These Fly by night, and Shady Car Auction houses sites as well. As they also use reserve pricing and use vendor bids. Both of which are clearly written on the rules when you registar and supply your info for bidding.
> The Blackhawk Collection
> The Auction Inc
> Kruse International
> ...


I believe Barrett-Jackson is a no reserve auction company, so I believe you are in error with your list.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> I believe Barrett-Jackson is a no reserve auction company, so I believe you are in error with your list.


tsk, tsk, tsk, tsk, tsk.
Barrett-Jackson is a No reserver auction, yes, but uses VENDOR BIDDING.
So once again Stay away from Barrett-Jackson as you need to stay away from Reserve Auctions and Vendor Bid's.
Barrett-Jackson uses Vendor bidding more than most as they set opening minimum bid prices higher than others.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

GrumpyBear said:


> Barrett-Jackson uses Vendor bidding more than most as they set opening minimum bid prices higher than others.


An opening bid doesn't have the same effect on the auction as a vendor bid that is not announced as such.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

James Long said:


> An opening bid doesn't have the same effect on the auction as a vendor bid that is not announced as such.


An opening, HIGH pre-set bid Price by the Auction house is a Vendor Bid.

Doesn't matter rather, its pre-set HIGH opening Vendor bid, to ensure an item doesn't sell to far below market price/evaluation, or the opening low bid, to start the bidding. Both are Vendor Bids. A blind, deaf and dumb person, my not see it, but the rest of the bidders actually bidding, know when a Vendor Bid happens. The effect is the same, just the starting value ratio is different between the two.

Rather its the low opening bid, or a pre-set HIGH opening bid, either way once the people start bidding, vendor bids shouldn't happen, and in the 10sec video, the vendor bid didn't happen verse a bidder. Vendor Bids do happen against live bidders, and in those cases, were it is frowned on in the industry, yes sadly not illegal, I would have to agree, that it should be illegal, and its definitly WRONG.

Once again, you will not find a Auction house that doesn't use Reserve Pricing or Vendor Bids, and Most do Both, or use a High Opening bid as thier Reserve. So please, for those that want to avoid, Reserve pricing or vendor bids, avoid the above shady Acution Houses.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

GrumpyBear said:


> James Long said:
> 
> 
> > An opening bid doesn't have the same effect on the auction as a vendor bid that is not announced as such.
> ...


Excuse the pun, but an opening bid just seems like a more "open" and honest way of doing business.

This thread started out with a discussion of shill bidding - and while the now removed YouTube clip may or may not have been the best example of shill bidding the idea that bids that come from real buyers are "real" and bids that come from people trying to convince (shorten to con) buyers into thinking that there is actual interest in the item being auctioned are "deceptive".

Perhaps long time auction watchers are in on the joke and understand the deceptive activity that is just part of the auction game. That is where Discovery may want to do a better job of pre-education. When they show something such as seen in the clip IMMEDIATELY explain what is going on.

One thing is guaranteed: If that auctioneer brings down the gavel and says "SOLD for $1 million dollars" it is a lie unless the item is actually sold. Lies told in business are fraud.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

James Long said:


> Excuse the pun, but an opening bid just seems like a more "open" and honest way of doing business.
> 
> This thread started out with a discussion of shill bidding - and while the now removed YouTube clip may or may not have been the best example of shill bidding the idea that bids that come from real buyers are "real" and bids that come from people trying to convince (shorten to con) buyers into thinking that there is actual interest in the item being auctioned are "deceptive".
> 
> ...


I go to both style of Auctions, and enjoy both, and end up buying more from auctions without, the artifcial opening minimum bid, and robs you of a chance to really get a deal on item. Its hard to explain to those that don't go, bidding really is an art form.

Nobody wants to be 1st on the bid, nobody wants to show to much interest in an item early, its all about decieving others in the room. People and Auction houses know an item is valued at $100. Lets say an Auctioneer opens the Bidding at $75, and will continue to drop the price until, finally somebody raises thier paddle, and the final price ends up being $115. Sometimes that same $100 item only has 1 bidder or just one knowlegable person in the room, and it falls and falls and the bidder gets it a steal price.

So what is worse, and Auction house that sets a reserve and a vendor bid from the start, on every item, robbing people from getting a really good deal? Or an Auction house that when the bidding drops to low on an item, or nobody wants to be 1st to actually, puts in a Vendor bid then, and offers somebody a chance to get an item at a great price, instead of x amount of the market value, on a unreserved item?

Everybody goes in hoping to get for(and these are numbers from a real auction)$4, a chair at a consignment auction that with a little cleaning, a trip to the Antquies Road show, they can take to Christy's and sell for several million. Yes it has happened.

Reserve Auctions and Reserve pricing have a place, and don't come as a surprise as everybody knows an item has a Reserved price. If you are not knowledgeable about the item ,move on, or hire an expert to go with you.

Some(lots actually) people make a living restoring items, and know what they have invested, they know about what the price of an item should be, and instead of dealing with the headaches of selling the item, and for the excitement of the auction, they take it to an auction, were somebody else can deal with the headache of selling it, and they can get several people involved at the sametime bidding on it. To protect themselves from an unlucky situation, they PAY $$$, to make sure that an item doesn't sell to low. Why should they have to lose lots of money because they brought an item to the wrong auction, or the timing was wrong, were they can safe guard thier investment and and can try to sell the item again at a different auction.

NOW if an Auction house Closed an item as SOLD, for any amount that would be fraud. The Video in question was edit to make sure we didn't see how the item went UNSOLD, and to the bidding continues part of the auction house.

Now somebody who was so all knowing about auctions would be able to explain all this, and would have an understanding about how all the different types of auctions and how bidding process works, before they started the thread. Auctions and Bidding in Auctions is a very complicated and exciting environment.

Now if you are looking for a REAL CRIME in the AUCTION Business. All you have to do is look at all the Gun/Jewelery Auctions. NOW THAT is a CRIME, with harsh and unusal Punishment for all husbands.


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## ebaltz (Nov 23, 2004)

http://ethisphere.com/wme2010/


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## jadebox (Dec 14, 2004)

I know how actions work. And, illegal or not, I think auctions with reserves are shady by themselves. Keeping the real minimum bid secret is dishonest. And calling a shill bid by a different name doesn't make it any less deceitful. Frankly, just because something may be legal (and commonly practiced) doesn't make it right.

-- Roger


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

ebaltz said:


> http://ethisphere.com/wme2010/


So I guess your point is all AUCTION Houses outside of Barrett Jackson are Unethical.
*Avoid the following Auction Houses*
_Christies
Sotheby's
Skinners
Doyle's
Bonham and Butterfield's
Heritage 
Susanina's Auctions
DuMouchelle Auction Galleries
Kruse Auction
Bunte Auction Services
Stanton's
Tom Harris Marshall Town
Leslie Hindman Auctioneers
Leland Little Auction and Estate Sales
John Moran Auctioneers Inc.
Priddy's Auction Galleries
Forsythes' Auctions
The Auction Inc 
Kruse International 
Keith McCormick's Palm Springs Auction 
Mecum Auctions 
Russo and Steele Collector Automobile Auctions 
Manheim Auctions Leake Auction Company 
Artcurial Bonhams 
H & H British Car Auctions 
Barons RM Auctions_


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