# WWMT - West Michigan can not recieve CBS HD



## eeguy (Sep 24, 2008)

WWMT HD is not broadcast on the Dish network. 
I have heard many reasons from the Dish representatives I have talked to in customer service. Most focus on contract disputes or the sub-channel infringements with WOOD TV 8
I was told that I could connect my OTA or roof-top terrestrial antenna to receive it and record the local channels they do not carry.

Don't Bother - they block WWMT TV 3 from being received. They do allow all the rest of the local "Over the Air" terrestrial transmissions to be received - but not TV 3.

My HDTV receives WWMT no problem using the same antenna - the Dish receiver blocks it. The DISH Customer Service Representative told me to call WWMT to straighten out the problem! How dumb is that??


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## RasputinAXP (Jan 23, 2008)

Er, I'm not aware that the antenna input can be 'told' to 'block' any signal..


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## eeguy (Sep 24, 2008)

All OTA programs I do receive are highlighted in yellow.
They must have some control to put them in the guide, and fill in the programming if available. 
The other local stations are still highlighted in yellow but have "digital service" instead of the name of the show" This clearly demonstrates some kind of real time control.
I can also record any of the OTA programs as if they were from the satellite. 
All this for everything OTA except WWMT


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

eeguy said:


> All OTA programs I do receive are highlighted in yellow.
> They must have some control to put them in the guide, and fill in the programming if available.
> The other local stations are still highlighted in yellow but have "digital service" instead of the name of the show" This clearly demonstrates some kind of real time control.
> I can also record any of the OTA programs as if they were from the satellite.
> All this for everything OTA except WWMT


You need to subscribe to locals.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Channel 3 OTA is not blocked on DISH receivers. If it isn't appearing in your guide then it was missed when you scanned in your channels. Assuming Channel 3's digital signal reaches your location and you have an outdoor antenna connected properly - to add the channel go to Menu-6-9, choose "ADD LOCALS" and choose "Transmit Channel 02".

The FCC's idea of coverage for that signal can be found here. 6.9 kW at 305m isn't much of a signal.

The eventual 25 kW signal at 257m will be better (see here), but you will have to wait until TV8 vacates their old analog channel.

WWMT's Transition Plan

Not receiving TV3 OTA isn't a DISH issue, it is a under powered broadcaster issue.

If you want the EPG data (a separate problem to actually receiving the signal) you will need to subscribe to locals - only $5 per month.


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## eeguy (Sep 24, 2008)

Let's be logical - 

If it was a poor signal why would all my DTV's connected to the same antenna be able to receive WWMT with no problem?

If it was missed, why can I not add it manually (shows signal strength = 0 for 3 and 2)?

If the antenna were not connected properly, how am I receiving all other locals through the Dish DVR?

I already subscribe to the locals, however Dish and WMMT will not play together, and DISH has publiccly announced that it will not carry the WWMT HD programming

The LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS - DISH is BLOCKING WMMT on it DVR receivers.

PS - DISH customer service already has had me both scan the locals, and add it manually - both a "NO-GO" after several attemtps


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## JR_Baas (May 5, 2005)

I receive WWMT via an antenna. Granted, it is not the best signal, but I can receive it. My 722 picks it up a lot better than my 942 did.


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## olds403 (Nov 20, 2007)

It is possible that the tuners in your televisions are more sensitive than the one in the satellite box. There are differences, maybe your antenna provides enough signal for the others but not for the dish tuner. If your television gets it okay connect the antenna to the tv directly and watch through the antenna input on your tv, no big deal. I highly doubt there is some type of conspiracy at work, I am sure dish has better things to worry about than a small OTA station in west michigan.


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

eeguy said:


> The LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS - DISH is BLOCKING WMMT on it DVR receivers.


No, that is the paranoid conclusion. As noted, others are receiving WWMT via OTA on DISH receivers.

What is your signal strength for "Transmit Channel 07"? What are your signal strengths on the other DTV tuners (channel 7 WOOD vs channel 2 WWMT)? Where are you (city, area of city)?


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## tsmacro (Apr 28, 2005)

Actually the tuner in my tv pulls in more channels than the tuner in my satellite box and all this time I thought the logical conclusion was that the tuner in my tv was just better. Silly me I should've known it was because Dish was blocking the channels they didn't want me to have!! :lol:


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## swissy (Oct 26, 2007)

I receive WWMT just fine on my 622. They have a poor signal and an even worse channel assignment. I use a RS medium range yagi in the attic and no amplification. "Signal strength" (which isn't really signal strength) is usually in the 70's.

My TV internal tuners do a better job than the 622, but all in all, I get the channel just fine. I get more audio drops on the 622, but that's not your issue.


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## Rduce (May 16, 2008)

eeguy said:


> WWMT HD is not broadcast on the Dish network.
> I have heard many reasons from the Dish representatives I have talked to in customer service. Most focus on contract disputes or the sub-channel infringements with WOOD TV 8
> I was told that I could connect my OTA or roof-top terrestrial antenna to receive it and record the local channels they do not carry.
> 
> ...


Your assertion is groundless, I live in Kalamazoo and use a rooftop antenna connected to my 722 and I am able to receive WWMT perfectly fine, with the signal meter pegged out at 100%! The signal will become better next year when they move to a new channel to deliver their digital signal... Your best bet is that something is interferring with your signal other than DISH!


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## eeguy (Sep 24, 2008)

It is very encouraging that someone is receiving WWMT through the DISH receiver.

Of all the channels I receive OTA through the DISH receiver, the weakest is 54 with a signal strength of 64. Th rest are in the 70s or pegged at 100%. 

My HD TVs do drop audiu on 54 but WMMT is fine. 

After another hour with DISH customer service and quoting that there are people in this fourm that receive WWNT through their DISH receive/DVR - they agreed to send a new receiver. Thanks guys!!!
I should receive it within 5 business days.
I'll let you know if it works


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

eeguy said:


> I should receive it within 5 business days.
> I'll let you know if it works


It won't make a difference.


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## peak_reception (Feb 10, 2008)

I get WWMT through a rooftop antenna fed into a 622. i don't really need to go through the 622 except that i can record stuff this way (though without DISH locals it's harder to do). And surprisingly the 622 has a better ATSC tuner than my 42" JVC.


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## eeguy (Sep 24, 2008)

I rented an SWR meter and a FSM. For those of you who are not an EE, SWR stands for Standing Wave Ration and FSM stands for Field Strength Meter. Effectively I measured the signal of WWMT coming from my antenna at the connector to the Dish receiver.

I have a strong signal, which means, the antenna is good, the line is good, and I am delivering a good signal to my VIP722 DVRs.

Both my original and replacement 722 do not receive WWMT channel 3 (transmit number 2). Other signals from the gun Lake transmission tower are received no problem. My HD TV receives it no-problem.

DISH representatives on the phone give up, and say that a technician will not hel.

In the end DISH lied. When I signed up, they said DISH would supply all my current local channels in HD the same ones I was receiving from Comcast with full DVR capability. That never happened

I have no idea how you other people got your Dish VIP 722 DVR receiver to pick up WWMT channel 3, but it sure isn't happening here in Grand Rapids at my house. You must know something I don't

They lied again when they said as a silver HD package subscriber , I could purchase the 61.5 additional dish, the I would then get all my local channels in HD. True - except for WWMT - They lied about that one.

They lied again, when they said I could get WWMT if I purchased an external terrestrial antenna and connected to the VIP 722 DVR True except for WWMT, they lied about that one too.

I don't expect DISH will start telling the truth any time soon. So I give up ! ! 
Anybody know if Direct TV delivers local HD channels and a decent DVR (50 hours of time or more)?


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## James Long (Apr 17, 2003)

Yes, it is all a vast conspiracy to deprive you ... and only you .. of WWMT's HD signal.  

WWMT HD is not on DISH because the station's owners decided to withhold the signal. I suggest you boycott WWMT until they agree to be carried. 

DirecTV can offer you HD locals in Grand Rapids. I won't speak for the quality (or lack thereof, whatever the case may be) of their DVR products. We have a forum for that.


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## mipo777 (Aug 15, 2008)

So my dad was going to subscribe to HD turbo bronze with locals in GR Michigan. Will he be recieving the CBS signal in SD because he is paying $5 for locals or no because he is gettign the turbo package. Not getting CBS will be a deal breaker I imagine. Please help was he has an install on Tues.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

mipo777 said:


> So my dad was going to subscribe to HD turbo bronze with locals in GR Michigan. Will he be recieving the CBS signal in SD because he is paying $5 for locals or no because he is gettign the turbo package. Not getting CBS will be a deal breaker I imagine. Please help was he has an install on Tues.


Go to the Dish Network web site, plug in his address and it'll tell you what he gets, what's available in HD and what distants (if any) he's eligible for.


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## mipo777 (Aug 15, 2008)

Redlinetire said:


> Go to the Dish Network web site, plug in his address and it'll tell you what he gets, what's available in HD and what distants (if any) he's eligible for.


Thanks for the help but I did that & thats where I discovered that WWMT isnt in HD. They do offer it in SD but since he's getting the HD Turbo, I don't know if he will be able to get it since he's getting an HD only package. I imagine they would turn on this one SD channel for him since they can't offer it in HD but I'm not sure. Also I thought there might be tech issues preventing it. Anyone know?


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## peak_reception (Feb 10, 2008)

eeguy said:


> All OTA programs I do receive are highlighted in yellow.
> They must have some control to put them in the guide, and fill in the programming if available.
> The other local stations are still highlighted in yellow but have "digital service" instead of the name of the show" This clearly demonstrates some kind of real time control.
> I can also record any of the OTA programs as if they were from the satellite.
> All this for everything OTA except WWMT


 If WWMT comes in fine directly to your HDTV(s) then that is strange that it wouldn't for your 722 as well. I was thinking maybe you locked out WWMT by mistake or that your antenna is lacking the longest dipoles needed for WWMT's ultra low VHF slot. But that wouldn't explain why the replacement has the same problem (on the first theory) or why your TV tuner picks up WWMT (on the second theory). So it's a mystery alright.

Recording OTA through a 622 or 722 without DISH locals is a bit more hassle. The timers have to be set manually and no guide information is given. Just "digital service." You can record without manual timers but in that case the recording just keeps going until you stop it. If you forget to stop it I think it will wipe out your unprotected archived recordings too once space runs out on the hard drive (which doesn't take long for HD on the 622).

Recording without a timer is useful for longer events like football games where you're there close to when the game starts and can be back not too long after it ends, but not very practical for short shows.

Not having a guide is a pain, but so is not having WWMT in HD or PBS at all (isn't that the case in this DMA?). And two dishes on the roof is a nuisance too, especially if you're charged for the 2nd one.

The Big Plus is that OTA HD is less compressed and offers a PQ that DISH HD locals can't match.

If I've gotten some of the above facts wrong someone can correct.


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## BNUMM (Dec 24, 2006)

PBS is available in SD on Dish. DirecTv has PBS in SD but I am not sure if they have it in HD yet. I have installed 722's in locations further from the tower than GR and they have picked up channel 3 WWMT.


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## swissy (Oct 26, 2007)

I know it is possible to have too much gain. However, you would have to be pretty close to the towers for that.

I assume you have tried to manually add the station in the "Local Setup" and checked signal strength there?


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## Todd Nicholson (Jan 7, 2007)

If you subscribe to the locals and have the Turbo HD package, you'll get both the HD and the SD versions.


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## mipo777 (Aug 15, 2008)

Todd Nicholson said:


> If you subscribe to the locals and have the Turbo HD package, you'll get both the HD and the SD versions.


Exactly what I wanted to hear. Thanks!


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## tegage (Sep 3, 2005)

I live in Grand Rapids and and watch my WWMT OTA signal via both a 622 and 722 without issue. According to both the 622 and 722 I have 100% signal strength. Even at 100%, the channel still pixelates frequently, but that is the result of a poor channel assignment. Channel 2 has a longer wavelength and is prone to interferece (or so I'm told).


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## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

There is probably something near youthat is generating RF interference that kills your WWMT signal.

That is why many stations are moving up from channels 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

It was wavy lines on the analog picture, it is no picture on digital.


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## arxaw (Jul 13, 2003)

WWMT-DT will move to highband VHF channel 8 on 2/17. That should help somewhat with impulse noise interference problems from electrical devices and area lightning. 

Although still somewhat of a problem in highband VHF chs 7 thru 13, it is not nearly as bad as lowband VHF 2 thru 6. The UHF band (chs 14 thru 51) does not have this problem.

You will need rescan for OTA channels on 2/17. D* DVRs with OTA do not scan. They rely solely on the physical/virtual channel mapping provided by TMS to D*. If TMS doesn't update the data on 2/17, DVR owners with OTA will not be able to tune any channels that move to new physical channel numbers.

WZZM-DT is also changing channels on 2/17, from UHF 39 back to their old analog channel, VHF 13.


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## tegage (Sep 3, 2005)

Jim5506 said:


> There is probably something near youthat is generating RF interference that kills your WWMT signal.
> 
> That is why many stations are moving up from channels 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
> 
> It was wavy lines on the analog picture, it is no picture on digital.


I am 1/4 miles from major power lines. I am also told that channel 2 from Chicago can interfere (given the charateristics of this channel).

I used to use a omni-directional antenna and now I use a very directional antenna. I get pixelation, but it's not bad. The station is very watchable. It will be nice when DISH picks up their HD signal and when they move channels, however.


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