# Making the Jump to FiOS from DIRECTV



## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

I've pulled the trigger on switching to FiOS from D*. There are a few motivating factors. First, FiOS in my area has the following HD channels that D* doesn't:

The Movie Channel Xtra HD
HBO 2 HD
HBO Signature HD
HBO Family HD
HBO Comedy HD
HBO Zone HD
More Max HD
Action Max HD
Thriller Max HD
WMAX HD
@ Max HD
Five Star Max HD
Outer Max HD

Yes, I’m a premium movie channel maven!
FiOS carries most of these channels in East and West coast feeds.
They have other channels that D* doesn't too but these are the ones that matter to me.

Another motivating factor is that bundling my phone, internet and TV services with Verizon will save me about $60 per month over what I'm paying now - that's hard to argue with…

Lastly, my Internet surf speed will increase from 3 Mbps to over 10 Mbps.

I am admittedly a little nervous about shutting off D*, I’ve had it for a LONG time. I will probably continue to use it for NFL Sunday ticket though.

My installation date for FiOS is December 13th. Maybe D* will finally add some more premium HD movie channels before then, but I’m tired of waiting.


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## tcusta00 (Dec 31, 2007)

I wouldn't make the decision solely on HD choice as the playing field will level within a year I think. 

Making it based on your other factors seems smart though. I hope you're happy with it, best of luck.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

I looked long and hard at what you're doing last year. I have FIOS internet and had Verizon phone, so the switch to save money seemed obvious. However, it depends on what's important to you. In my case, the limitations of the FIOS DVR were too many to overcome, especially the fact that you couldn't have discreet IR commands (can't have 2 or more DVR's in the same room with different remote codes, can't expand the HD, etc.). At the time (not sure about now), there were many other limitations/complaints about the FIOS DVR and since recording shows is my number one priority, I had to pass. Since then, I've switched from Verizon home phone to Vonage (but still have FIOS internet), so the potential savings wouldn't have mattered anyway.
With Premiere, I have more HD premium movie channels than I can watch now, so I don't think I have any use for the extra ones, so that wasn't a factor.

It all comes down to preferences. If it's the right decision for you, that's great. Just keep in mind that there's trade offs for everything. I think tcusta's correct in that all those channels will come to D* eventually, but I think there's HD channels that FIOS won't have for a long time (i.e. Big Ten - which is more important to me than movie channels).


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

Well at least the Fios tech will be happy with your coax home runs.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Mertzen said:


> Well at least the Fios tech will be happy with your coax home runs.


As one of my neighbors recently had his Comcast outside run replaced....he and I had an interesting discusion about FIOS.

He stated that having fiber to the property box and then running copper wire to or in the home negates 75% of the benefit of having fiber at all. He said its kinda like having a drag race to the finish line, and 10 feet before the end...running into wet cement....

Well I guess since FIO won't even be here for another 3-4 years (according to them)....its a moot point. I see no reason to switch, even if it was here today.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

Good thing is you can put your directv account on hold for a few months and see if you like it.. this gives you a way out if problems occur..
Best of luck..


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

houskamp said:


> Good thing is you can put your directv account on hold for a few months and see if you like it.. this gives you a way out if problems occur..
> Best of luck..


That's a great suggestion....eliminates giong back through the whole "new customer" thingy....and its free and no harm if you then cancel.


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## Xalky (Nov 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> He stated that having fiber to the property box and then running copper wire to or in the home negates 75% of the benefit of having fiber at all. He said its kinda like having a drag race to the finish line, and 10 feet before the end...running into wet cement....


That's not entirely true. The closer the fiber optic entrance is to the premises the more bandwidth you will get in the home.

For instance, u-verse is called "fiber to the node". Where the node is a neighborhood box where the fiber connection terminates and the remainder of the data run is over copper, usually up to a maximum distance of 3000ftfrom the node. At 50 ft from the node the copper is capable of 100mbps or more. but at 2,500 ft away from the node that rate drops down to around 35mbps.

The advantage of fios is that the fiber cable usually runs right to the house. This enables pretty phenomenal data transfer rates of 100mbps or more.

U verse is capable of 2 HD feeds and 2SD feeds on a 25mbps capacity. Fios is capable of at least 4 times that amount of data. So Fios is the cats meow if your looking for an IP tv solution. U-verse is only slightly better than cable.

I'm a directv lover. As long as they keep improving and staying ahead of the competition, I'll never make the mistake of switching again.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Xalky said:


> That's not entirely true. The closer the fiber optic entrance is to the premises the more bandwidth you will get in the home.


Well around here 100' copper runs to the house and then internal of the homes are the norm.

One thing he added...unless the fiber runs right to the device, you'll always have copper bottlenecking the speed "signficantly", as long as the copper run length was over 20'.

In any case, It was just interesting to hear a cable guy actually know alot about fiber (he said our area had fiber to the property lines now for almost 5 years).


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well around here 100' copper runs to the house and then internal of the homes are the norm.


Around there, they run the fiber right to the side of the house (or in my case, into the garage).


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## Xalky (Nov 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Well around here 100' copper runs to the house and then internal of the homes are the norm.
> 
> One thing he added...unless the fiber runs right to the device, you'll always have copper bottlenecking the speed "signficantly", as long as the copper run length was over 20'.
> 
> In any case, It was just interesting to hear a cable guy actually know alot about fiber (he said our area had fiber to the property lines now for almost 5 years).


No doubt that copper is a bottleneck. The bottleneck gets more restrictive as the distance increases. 100ft away is hardly a long distance. Though it does slow it down a little, at a 100' the data transfer rate should be close to 100mbps which is pretty substantial.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I'm always learning something new every day.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As one of my neighbors recently had his Comcast outside run replaced....he and I had an interesting discusion about FIOS.
> 
> He stated that having fiber to the property box and then running copper wire to or in the home negates 75% of the benefit of having fiber at all. He said its kinda like having a drag race to the finish line, and 10 feet before the end...running into wet cement....
> 
> Well I guess since FIO won't even be here for another 3-4 years (according to them)....its a moot point. I see no reason to switch, even if it was here today.


The only slow copper in a Fios "triple-play" home is the existing POTS wiring. The fiber optic cable comes in from the street to an Optical Network Interfdace (ONI), to which your CAT 5, CAT 6 or coaxial broadband is connected. At any given time, my son and both sisters (all happy FiOS TV customers) can have close to 100 mbps of FiOS running inside their homes, 20/5 for internet, and about 8-10 mbps per tuner, via MoCA.

I haven't switched to FiOS because of cost. HD-DVR's are $15/month each (and I've got 6 right now), and their MRV solution, while somewhat cheaper, is currently limited to a single DVR master (with 2 tuners and total 40 hours programming storage).

Like Stew, I'm a FiOS/Vonage/DirecTV customer. With 6 DVR's and one STB, I'm paying about $93 month for DirecTV (without premiums), $40 for FiOs (10/2) and $25 for Vonage, total $158.

/steve


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

Reaper,

Let me know your impression once you switch over. I am thinking of getting FIOS TV as my backup TV provider, going to dump Cablevision with their latest price increase. I will be keeping D* as my main TV provider though, can't beat all the sports in HD. I already have FIOS phone and internet (20/20mbps). Good luck with your install.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

In my area, all triple play plans are great for the first 3 months to a year, then they get exponetially more expensive.. I have a cousin how has triple play, and while her phone is less expensive than a regular line, its still double my vonage account.. I have yet to see a triple play package that exictes me, because I always look long term.. I'm currently hoping U-verse internet hits my area so I can upgrade from DSL... I will never go to cable at 60+ a month... I've been on it at a neighbors, and its not fast enough to warrant the extra $35 over what I pay now...


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I switched to FIOS from DirecTV back in Feb '07 and never looked back. Verizon added a bunch of HD channels to their lineup back in September of this year and recently added the HD Extreme package which adds even more HD channels. The package only costs $10 more per month but as an added bonus they bump up your internet download speed from 5Mbps to 20Mbps as part of the upgrade. I have TV, internet, landline phone, and wireless phone all from Verizon and they combine everything into a single monthly bill, which really helps with the budgeting. Plus, I get a discount on my TV service for having the combined package.

I don't know why people include the Verizon DVR into the mix when comparing packages because it's not even in the running when it comes to available DVRs for use with FIOS. It has far too many limitations to be taken seriously. Aside from the initial upfront cost of purchasing a Tivo HD, you can get one for about the same, if not less, than the Verizon DVR when you calculate the monthly cost based on a long term prepaid plan with Tivo.

I had DirecTV for over 10 years and watched the picture quality gradually decrease over that time frame due to overcompression of the signals so they could cram more worthless channels into their lineup (i.e., worthless to me but profitable for DTV; I guess the Holy Rollers like to spend lots of money on the shopping channels )

I was in a far different situation back then than most people are in today when deciding on the two providers. DirecTV hadn't activated their mpeg4 sats with the new HD lineup at the time and I wasn't sure if I wanted to commit to two more years not knowing if the HD channels would be worth it or if their new HD DVR would live up to it's promise. The HD20 was still in it's infancy back then and was having a lot of issues. FIOS had the best picture quality by far from any provider at that time and the S3 Tivo was available so it seemed like the logical choice for me. I've been anxiously awaiting the rollout of the new HD channels and now that they're here I am still convinced I made the right call.

I'm a DVR fanatic so having a DVR I can modify to do what I want is most important to me. The HRXX DVRs turned out to be pretty good but they don't lend themselves to modifications like a Tivo does. Ironically, the latest software for the Tivos allows you to transfer videos to your PC without any hacking involved so it's an even sweeter deal than before. The HRXX models have been promised a similar feature for quite some time now but so far DirecTV hasn't lived up to their promise. I'll be surprised if the new DirecTivo models have this feature, but if they do, it will make DirecTV competitive once again in this area.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> In my area, all triple play plans are great for the first 3 months to a year, then they get exponetially more expensive..


You probably don't literally mean "exponentially." Raising even a $20/month bill to the second power would be $400/month.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

paulman182 said:


> You probably don't literally mean "exponentially." Raising even a $20/month bill to the second power would be $400/month.


No. He specifically said exponetially.:lol:

And while I'm in my editor mode, the box that FIOS uses is called an ONT (Optical Network Terminal) and not an ONI as someone stated. While it may have been interesting to hear a Comcast installer discuss fiber optics, I would have taken his info with a grain of salt considering he's talking about a major competitor. I had Comcast for wideband internet and, while it may have been faster at times, it sucks in comparison to FIOS internet (for far too many reasons, I might add, but that's another whole diatribe in itself). Not having fiber run throughout your entire house is a moot point because you don't need the wide bandwidth capability for each individual service. The internet, phone, and TV signals are all split out at the ONT and distributed via separate wires throughout your home. RG6 has more than enough bandwidth to handle the TV signals, the phone circuit uses your existing phone wiring, and the internet is distributed via either wireless connection or through a hardwired ethernet. When you try and cram all of those signals into a single RG6 cable then you will run into bandwidth limitations, which is what hurts Comcast. They do have a fiber optic backbone in most areas, but that only uses fiber between the main feed and the box out at the street. The signals to your house are carried on a coax cable from the street, which is where you lose the benefit of having fiber.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

captain_video said:


> While it may have been interesting to hear a Comcast installer discuss fiber optics, I would have taken his info with a grain of salt considering he's talking about a major competitor.


That may be true...but everything he stated has been pretty much proven to be accurate, with the debatible exception of the *actual *impact from any copper in the line run to the device. Know thy competition....nothing wrong with that.

In any case....these "Im leaving" stories crop up here all the time, just like the "I'm coming over to DirectTV from" stories.....

I guess some folks figure the news media might pick up their story or make them famous somehow if they make such an announcement.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I have FIOS internet, and it's fiber to the outdoor terminal, which is directly connected to the indoor "terminal". The indoor terminal connects via ethernet cable to my router.

There's no copper involved.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That may be true...but everything he stated has been pretty much proven to be accurate, with the debatible exception of the *actual *impact from any copper in the line run to the device. Know thy competition....nothing wrong with that.


I think you are confused on what they are telling you. RG6 can easily handle the TV signal (D* uses it). There is no copper involved for the internet- which is where the speed matters. Your neighbor is full of it on the "wet cement" comments.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> I think you are confused on what they are telling you. RG6 can easily handle the TV signal (D* uses it). There is no copper involved for the internet- which is where the speed matters. Your neighbor is full of it on the "wet cement" comments.


No confusion on my end. Perhaps you are confused.

Copper handles bandwidth differently (and slower) than fiber - see the other posts here.

As for the wet cement...others here that even have FIOS attest to that as well. Just ask any cable user on how RG6 handles bandwidth...sure it handles a signal, but has much more bandwidth limitations and lower speed than fiber.

In this area, fiber is NOT run to the homes, only to the curbside boxes...so the impact and issue of inline copper runs comes into play.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

captain_video said:


> They do have a fiber optic backbone in most areas, but that only uses fiber between the main feed and the box out at the street. The signals to your house are carried on a coax cable from the street, which is where you lose the benefit of having fiber.


In our area, they bring the fiber right into the home. I've got what essentially looks like a fat TOS-Link cable coming into the ONT in my garage. The ONT has CAT5 and coaxial eithernet ports for the router/set top box distribution system, along with POTS phone connections. /steve


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No confusion on my end. Perhaps you are confused.


No. I'm not. You are getting your information from a cable guy. You keep talking about copper being run to each device (its not). See Steve's post above on the installation at his house.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> No. I'm not. You are getting your information from a cable guy. You keep talking about copper being run to each device (its not). See Steve's post above on the installation at his house.


You *are *confused:

1) While the information originated from a "cable guy", it has been reaffirmed by actual users.

2) While Steve stated he has fiber run all the way to the house, *many* others (including the 1500 residents of my neighborhood), do not. Nationwide, fiber to the house is the exception.

Therefore, based on #1 and #2 above, the impact of copper inline remains very much in play as an issue...and its pretty well established that copper handles less bandwidth than fiber, so....

At least some of the specific value and benefit of FIOS is lost (how much is about the only debate here) *if *you do not have fiber run all the way to the house, in the house, and to the device you are connecting.

As for the value of these kinds of thread "announcements" of people coming and going to a service...that's entirely another debate...


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## swans (Jan 23, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I have FIOS internet, and it's fiber to the outdoor terminal, which is directly connected to the indoor "terminal". The indoor terminal connects via ethernet cable to my router.
> 
> There's no copper involved.


You mean that ethernet cables don't have copper in them anymore?:eek2:


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You *are *confused:
> 
> 1) While the information originated from a "cable guy", it has been reaffirmed by actual users.
> 
> ...


You can run 1 gigabit ethernet over 300 feet of CAT5/CAT6 cable, so I don't see copper from the pole to the house as an issue at all, since that's about 10x the bandwidth a typical FiOS home requires (at 20/2 internet and 10mpbs per tuner). /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

swans said:


> You mean that ethernet cables don't have copper in them anymore?:eek2:


Yes...they typically do...


Steve said:


> You can run 1 gigabit ethernet over 300 feet of CAT5/CAT6 cable, so I don't see copper from the pole to the house as an issue at all, since that's about 10x the bandwidth a typical FiOS home requires (at 20/2 internet and 10mpbs per tuner). /steve


From the street...100' of copper to a house, and then 50'-150' of copper IN the house definitely comes into play.

Visualize a funnel (fiber)...it holds a lot, right up until you get to the bottom part (copper)...it only lets so much through, no matter how big the top part is...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> From the street...100' of copper to a house, and then 50'-150' of copper IN the house definitely comes into play.


That's 250 feet. More than enough to carry 1 gigabit ethernet. Sure the fiber is capable of more, but the home only needs 1/10 of what the copper can deliver now. /steve


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## JLucPicard (Apr 27, 2004)

captain_video said:


> I don't know why people include the Verizon DVR into the mix when comparing packages because it's not even in the running when it comes to available DVRs for use with FIOS. It has far too many limitations to be taken seriously. Aside from the initial upfront cost of purchasing a Tivo HD, you can get one for about the same, if not less, than the Verizon DVR when you calculate the monthly cost based on a long term prepaid plan with Tivo.


I'm very happy that your switch to FIOS has worked out so well for you.

I've been "looking in from the outside" more out of curiosity than anything else because FIOS isn't available in my area anyway, but some of the things I've read would lead me to believe that, aside from possibly internet service, I would not make the switch. The main reason for that? DVRs.

I may not necessarily have the facts completely straight (because I haven't scrutinized them closely because it's not an option for me anyway), but it seems there may be some limitation to the number of actual HD feeds available? Plus, if the only real choice for a decent HD DVR is the TiVo, I know that I wouldn't be thrilled at all with paying $13+ a month - or even whatever that may be discounted somewhat on a longer term plan - for the service.

I currently have 5 HD DVRs (6 if you count the HR10-250). That's at least ten tuners of HD content. Those 5 HD DVRs cost me $25 a month total. If I had the equivalent with the TiVo boxes, I would be paying around something like $40 a month - and that's only if the service could actually provide me that many HD feeds, which DirecTV does easily right now. And that doesn't even take into account the $1500 (at a minimum?) that it would cost me to acquire the TiVo boxes - which is far less than it cost me to obtain the DVRs I have right now (most of them free).

I have no doubt that FIOS is a great choice for a lot of people. From the sigs I've seen on this board, it seems like multiple DVRs is the norm and not the exception, so it may not be such a great alternative for a lot of folks.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As one of my neighbors recently had his Comcast outside run replaced....he and I had an interesting discusion about FIOS.
> 
> He stated that having fiber to the property box and then running copper wire to or in the home negates 75% of the benefit of having fiber at all. He said its kinda like having a drag race to the finish line, and 10 feet before the end...running into wet cement....
> 
> Well I guess since FIO won't even be here for another 3-4 years (according to them)....its a moot point. I see no reason to switch, even if it was here today.


With all due respect to your neighbor, that's just nonsense. First off, that fiber allows me to run internet and phone OUTSIDE of the TV spectrum. Traditional cable has to use QAM space for things like internet, voice, guide data, and VOD. Verizon doesn't. They can use all 870MHz of their TV spectrum for live TV programming. Internet and phone are on different frequencies. In addition, they run guide data and VOD (as well as their widgets feature) in the IP feed, meaning, like I said, that the TV spectrum is used purely for live TV feeds.

Second, fiber doesn't have issues with signal loss, like traditional cable does. Fiber doesn't degrade - it doesn't break down, it's impervious to stuff like atmospheric interference, other electrical interference, and water. About the only thing you can do to fiber to hit performance is to break it. Traditional signal loss can cause problems with your TV viewing. Verizon doesn't have that issue - the signal is powered at your house - so there is no issue with your signal being too weak.

Next, fiber can transfer data at a much higher rate than copper can. Right now Verizon runs BPON in most of its markets. They're migrating to GPON which will allow them to quadruple their speeds.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

JLucPicard said:


> I'm very happy that your switch to FIOS has worked out so well for you.
> 
> I've been "looking in from the outside" more out of curiosity than anything else because FIOS isn't available in my area anyway, but some of the things I've read would lead me to believe that, aside from possibly internet service, I would not make the switch. The main reason for that? DVRs.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with the FiOS DVR, IMO, except that disk storage can't easily be increased. It is a feature-rich device with a kick-ass UI that is very responsive. The issue for me is pricing. DirecTV PLUS HD DVR package is $73/month. Add 4 HD DVR's and one HD STB, and that's $93/month. Verizon's "Extreme HD" plan is $58/month. 4 HD DVR's are $64 and one HD STB is $10, total $132/month. Big difference.

/steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> With all due respect to your neighbor, that's just nonsense.


Forget my neighbor....but its not nonsense....the "funnel effect" of bandwidth slowdown is a reality.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I'd like to put some clarifications here - I see some wrong information contained in this thread. First, to hdtvfan's point - I'm not sure where you get the information that you run copper from the pole to the house (assuming I'm reading your posts correctly - I may not be). FiOS is 100% FTTP (fiber to the premises - aka FTTH - fiber to the home). Fiber runs all the way to your home for every FiOS install. Period.

Second, to some other points about no coax being involved for internet - that's not entirely true. Older internet connections are hooked up via ethernet - that's how mine is hooked up. Newer installations are 100% MoCA - aka coax for internet connections.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Reaper said:


> I've pulled the trigger on switching to FiOS from D*.
> I am admittedly a little nervous about shutting off D*, I've had it for a LONG time. *I will probably continue to use it for NFL Sunday ticket though.*
> 
> My installation date for FiOS is December 13th. Maybe D* will finally add some more premium HD movie channels before then, but I'm tired of waiting.


It could get expensive to keep NFL ST. I believe you have to at least subscribe to a basic package to get NFL ST. So at minimum you will have to pay $29.99/mo for the family package + the cost of NFL ST for the few months of the season.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Forget my neighbor....but its not nonsense....the "funnel effect" of bandwidth slowdown is a reality.


My 'nonsense' response was to the comment that you lose 75% of the benefit of fiber if you funnel it down to copper. That IS just nonsense. Fiber gives you gobs of benefits over full coax.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Forget my neighbor....but its not nonsense....the "funnel effect" of bandwidth slowdown is a reality.


Yes, but how does that apply to this discussion, since even a "slowed down" bandwidth is at least an order of magnitude more than is required to deliver the service? And that's assuming you are correct and it's not FTTH in your area. /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> I'd like to put some clarifications here - I see some wrong information contained in this thread. First, to hdtvfan's point - I'm not sure where you get the information that you run copper from the pole to the house (assuming I'm reading your posts correctly - I may not be). FiOS is 100% FTTP (fiber to the premises - aka FTTH - fiber to the home). Fiber runs all the way to your home for every FiOS install. Period.


Sorry to disagree, but local ordinances don't allow fiber to the house here without a special "building and grounds" exception, which is curently not being allowed by our county of 4+ Million people.

Verizon has been in the local papers alot the past 6 months talking about their future FIOS infrastructure.....4 cities in the county are actually filing an injunction to prohibit Verizon from "digging up our county" for new fiber cabling. This includes to the house.

It may be OK there, but it is estimated 5 years away here, and may never even happen with these limitations.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Sorry to disagree, but local ordinances don't allow fiber to the house here without a special "building and grounds" exception, which is curently not being allowed by our county of 4+ Million people.
> 
> Verizon has been in the local papers alot the past 6 months talking about their future FIOS infrastructure.....4 cities in the county are actually filing an injunction to prohibit Verizon from "digging up our county" for new fiber cabling. This includes to the house.
> 
> It may be OK there, but it is estimated 5 years away here, and may never even happen with these limitations.


I'm confused, then. You said that FiOS MAY be there in a few years... how is it possible that Verizon is running FiOS in your neighborhood... if they're not in your neighborhood yet? I'm guessing all this means that FiOS currently ISN'T in your neighborhood, correct? If that's the case, then what I wrote is still correct - FiOS is currently 100% FTTP. I don't even know if their current architecture allows for FTTN (which is what you're talking about).

Edit - just reread what you wrote. What you're saying makes no sense. You're arguing against my point that FiOS is 100% FTTP, because your local ordinances don't allow for it, but then you said FiOS isn't there yet. My point still very much holds - FiOS is 100% FTTP! There are zero cases (currently) of Verizon running FTTN for FiOS. Will that change in the future? I have no idea. They've talked about possibly going FTTN for more rural areas. What will happen when Verizon wants to start laying fiber in your area? I have no idea. It could be that they just decide it's not worth the effort, and move on. But until you can point me to a single case where FiOS is actually run as FTTN, you are incorrect on this one.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> I'm confused, then. You said that FiOS MAY be there in a few years... how is it possible that Verizon is running FiOS in your neighborhood... if they're not in your neighborhood yet?


Verizon has made application to run the infrastructure cabling 5 years prior to proposed availability of this service (cabling to homes, some throroughfares, and in new subdivisions). Its being met with extensive legal and other public opposition.

Bellsouth (now AT&T) already ran fiber throughout the county years ago, but just to curbsides, and only in about 60% of the entire county.

We have almost 5 Million in the county area, so there is alot of discussion and dialog on this topic here....most of it seemingly in opposition to "massive digging".

But my main point was that unless the issue of runing fiber to the home is resolved, people won't get the full benefit of FIOS here becuase the copper parts of the run will indeed slow down the speeds. Engineers here for the county (who are actually promoting the idea) have confirmed this as well.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Verizon has made application to run the infrastructure cabling 5 years prior to proposed availability of this service (cabling to homes, some throroughfares, and in new subdivisions). Its being met with extensive legal and other public opposition.
> 
> Bellsouth (now AT&T) already ran fiber throughout the county years ago, but just to curbsides in about 60% of the entire county.


So your neighborhood doesn't have FIOS (due to local laws), but you are still claiming that FIOS isn't run to the home?


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> So your neighborhood doesn't have FIOS (due to local laws), but you are still claiming that FIOS isn't run to the home?


Read it again....that's not at all what was said. 

Copper is run to homes in the county from curbside connections.


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Verizon has made application to run the infrastructure cabling 5 years prior to proposed availability of this service (cabling to homes, some throroughfares, and in new subdivisions). Its being met with extensive legal and other public opposition.
> 
> Bellsouth (now AT&T) already ran fiber throughout the county years ago, but just to curbsides in about 60% of the entire county.


Running fiber to the curbside (either on the pole or underground) is the first step. They do that wherever they run FiOS. But at some point they activate the service in the area, and you have to get installed. When they install you they run fiber from the curbside to your home. That's the way it's currently set up. Will that change? I have no idea. Like I said, their current architecture doesn't even allow for FTTN hook-ups. I'm not sure what will happen when Verizon takes you guys to court over this (which, I'm betting they will). They've hit this kind of opposition before, and they've always won - the reason? Every property has an easement just for these types of services. Hell, I have a pole in the back corner of my yard. Because of that I HAVE to provide access to my backyard to any and all such companies (phone, electric, cable, etc.), no questions asked (I've had my share of mornings where I've woken up to a guy walking across my back yard, ladder in toe, to service the pole).

If your area has underground utilities, then they have to allow for service companies to get to those utilities. If you guys win that fight (don't think it'll happen, but I guess it could), then we'll see what Verizon does. Until then, what I wrote is 100% correct - they run FTTP for all FiOS installs, which means (currently) the latency you're talking about is a moot point. Yeah, you see SOME degredation of speeds, but come on... relatively short coax runs (aka the kind found in a home) can easily handle speeds of 100Mbps.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Read it again....that's not at all what was said.
> 
> Copper is run to homes in the county from curbside connections.


By Verizon? For FiOS internet or TV? Or simply for POTS and DSL? /steve


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As one of my neighbors recently had his Comcast outside run replaced....he and I had an interesting discusion about FIOS.
> 
> He stated that having fiber to the property box and then running copper wire to or in the home negates 75% of the benefit of having fiber at all. He said its kinda like having a drag race to the finish line, and 10 feet before the end...running into wet cement....
> 
> Well I guess since FIO won't even be here for another 3-4 years (according to them)....its a moot point. I see no reason to switch, even if it was here today.


That's simply not accurate. Short copper runs (anything inside a home is considered short for this purpose) can handle incredibly high speeds. That didn't use to be the case but technical advancements have made this pretty simple. I spent 30 years with AT&T.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> But at some point they activate the service in the area, and you have to get installed. When they install you they run fiber from the curbside to your home.


Which brings us full circle to the fact that as of today, 4 cities in the county have suits to oppose this happening in my county.


Steve said:


> By Verizon? For FiOS internet or TV? Or simply for POTS and DSL? /steve


No fiber to the house (on "residential lands or lots", as the lawsuits call it) is currently permitted in this county.

By No One.

For No service.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

narrod said:


> That's simply not accurate. Short copper runs (anything inside a home is considered short for this purpose) can handle incredibly high speeds. That didn't use to be the case but technical advancements have made this pretty simple. I spent 30 years with AT&T.


So 250' or more (including curbside to a house) is a "short" copper run?

Not according to any engineers (including 2 I personally know from AT&T), multiple telecomm communications experts, or additional digital hardware gurus I've spoken with on the subject.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Which brings us full circle to the fact that as of today, 4 cities in the county have suits to oppose this happening in my county.
> 
> No fiber to the house (on "residential lands or lots", as the lawsuits call it) is currently permitted in this county.
> 
> ...


So.... you're raising a strawman argument. FiOS has degredation in speed because the coax runs from the curbside to your home is really long... which hurts the performance of FiOS in your area... but FTTP in your area isn't allowed... Which means that, since there is no FTTP in your neighborhood, there is no FiOS there either, and therefore this IS no degredation in performance that you're mentioning in any FiOS setup... Which means that your point is... what? I'm getting dizzy over this one 

As for your neighbor's comments - that doesn't really surprise me that a Comcast person knows so much about fiber - they run fiber as part of their backbone all over the place. They've long contended (around here, anyway) that they're really no different from Verizon because they have fiber too! It doesn't surprise me to have a Comcast person tell you that their architecture (which is what he's referencing) is as good as Verizon's with regard to fiber. What he's describing is their company's argument against Verizon - at least that's one of the arguments that I've seen around here (you want fiber? then come to Comcast! We have more fiber than Verizon!).


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> So.... you're raising a strawman argument. FiOS has degredation in speed because the coax runs from the curbside to your home is really long... which hurts the performance of FiOS in your area... even though there IS no FiOS currently in your area?


Now you've got it!

The OP is about how and why someone changed, and additional points were being made as to its merits. Therein, this prompted the observation on obstacles to others making the switch.

As for the Comcast's extensive fiber usage...of course, you live in Comcast's backyard.

...but now we're home.


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

I am 99.9 percent sure that I will switch to FiOS when it becomes available in my area.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now you've got it!
> 
> The OP is about how and why someone changed, and additional points were being made as to its merits. Therein, this prompted the observation on obstacles to others making the switch.
> 
> ...and now we're home.


Holy crap! I'm exhausted!  I'm going to have lunch. One thing I'll say - this discussion helped keeping me from falling asleep during one really boring... long... meeting here at work


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

man_rob said:


> I am 99.9 percent sure that I will switch to FiOS when it becomes available in my area.


Whew......


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Now you've got it!
> 
> The OP is about how and why someone changed, and additional points were being made as to its merits. Therein, this prompted the observation on obstacles to others making the switch.
> 
> ...


Actually, what prompted the entire discussion was your first post indicating that, in a FIOS install, fiber wasn't run to the house.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> Holy crap! I'm exhausted!  I'm going to have lunch. One thing I'll say - this discussion helped keeping me from falling asleep during one really boring... long... meeting here at work


I gotta give ya that one...

!rolling !rolling !rolling


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So 250' or more (including curbside to a house) is a "short" copper run?
> 
> Not according to any engineers (including 2 I personally know from AT&T), multiple telecomm communications experts, or additional digital hardware gurus I've spoken with on the subject.


Have it your way. I know what I did for a living and I know how it works.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> Actually, what prompted the entire discussion was your first post indicating that, in a FIOS install, fiber wasn't run to the house.


No...what I said that in THIS area, fiber isn't run to the house anywhere.

Again, perhaps we can start a Reading 101" class.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No...what I said that in THIS area, fiber isn't run to the house anywhere.
> 
> Again, perhaps we can start a Reading 101" class.


Perhaps we can. Reread my post then reread your FIRST post. Then show me where it says THIS area.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> But my main point was that unless the issue of runing fiber to the home is resolved, people won't get the full benefit of FIOS here becuase the copper parts of the run will indeed slow down the speeds.


Totally untrue. As I've pointed out at least twice before in this thread, 250' of copper can deliver an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the three FiOS home services will require. So your point about funneling down fiber capacity to copper is meaningless in this context, even if Verizon ever decided to run it that way. /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

raott said:


> Perhaps we can. Reread my post then reread your FIRST post. Then show me where it says THIS area.


I stand corrected...it was my second post on that topic...and repeated numerous times since...

*"Well around here 100' copper runs to the house and then internal of the homes are the norm."*


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Totally untrue. As I've pointed out at least twice before in this thread, 250' of copper can deliver an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the three FiOS home services will require. So your point about funneling down fiber capacity to copper is meaningless in this context, even if Verizon ever decided to run it that way. /steve


I guess 9 other folks that I've extensively spoken with on this spefici issue (since its a hot one in this area), all with engineering degrees or 15+ years of experience in this field, all respectfully disagree.

No harm, no foul.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I guess 9 other folks that I've extensively spoken with on this spefici issue (since its a hot one in this area), all with engineering degrees or 15+ years of experience in this field, all respectfully disagree.
> 
> No harm, no foul.


Your 9 experts claim that you can't deliver 100 mpbs bandwidth over a 250' foot copper cable into the home? /steve


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## runner26 (Apr 8, 2007)

Reaper said:


> I've pulled the trigger on switching to FiOS from D*. There are a few motivating factors. First, FiOS in my area has the following HD channels that D* doesn't:
> 
> The Movie Channel Xtra HD
> HBO 2 HD
> ...


There is one thing you are going to have to get used to as a former D* subscriber: when you call Fios with a problem they are actually interested in helping you. Fios will send out a tech who actually knows something and has some interested in solving your problem. Yep, Fios has honest-god customer service. This will be a HUGE change from D* of course and will take some getting used to. Good luck I wish I could follow you.


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

Steve said:


> Your 9 experts claim that you can't deliver 100 mpbs bandwidth over a 250' foot copper cable into the home? /steve


If they all did say that I would like to know where they received their education and training. I wonder if some are confusing UTP with Coax. While you can still do 100mpbs over UTP it is not as capable as Coax.


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## dhhaines (Nov 18, 2005)

Steve said:


> There's nothing wrong with the FiOS DVR, IMO, except that disk storage can't easily be increased. It is a feature-rich device with a kick-ass UI that is very responsive. The issue for me is pricing. DirecTV PLUS HD DVR package is $73/month. Add 4 HD DVR's and one HD STB, and that's $93/month. Verizon's "Extreme HD" plan is $58/month. 4 HD DVR's are $64 and one HD STB is $10, total $132/month. Big difference.
> 
> /steve


 Yep... the cost is the reason I didn't even consider Verizon for TV when they hooked up my FIOS internet. Which is screaming by the way compared to the Comcast cable I did have.


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## rocket69 (Oct 27, 2008)

With fios you will get better picture quality on your hd then direct. Dish picture quality is is better then directs at the moment unless you have a HR23 then its on par with dish. Also dish caries most of those chanels you are missing some of those max chanels wont come out till dec/jan for direc/dish.

One thing Fiso has that you might not like is you billing. Good luck on having the same amount billed every month with out suprises


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

narrod said:


> If they all did say that I would like to know where they received their education and training. I wonder if some are confusing UTP with Coax. While you can still do 100mpbs over UTP it is not as capable as Coax.


Cat 7 hasn't been formally approved, but it's actually spec'd for 100 _gbps_(!) over 300 foot cable run lengths. That may be even greater than fiber over short distances! :lol: I believe fiber is 2.5 gbps over long distances. /steve


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

Steve said:


> Cat 7 hasn't been formally approved, but it's actually spec'd for 100 _Gigabits_(!) over 300 foot cable run lengths. /steve


I've been retired for almost four years so I'm not current on what is now possible but I know what we could do five years ago and 100mbps was not a problem.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

RACJ2 said:


> It could get expensive to keep NFL ST. I believe you have to at least subscribe to a basic package to get NFL ST. So at minimum you will have to pay $29.99/mo for the family package + the cost of NFL ST for the few months of the season.


Yes, that's true but for those five months out of the year I would still be "saving" $30/month over what I'm paying now.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

houskamp said:


> Good thing is you can put your directv account on hold for a few months and see if you like it.. this gives you a way out if problems occur..
> Best of luck..


Yes, I plan on suspending my D* account when it's not NFL season. This will always make it easy for me to go back to D* as my primary service if I want to in the future. I've done this before; I had E* as my primary provider for a couple of years until they dropped the VOOM Networks.

FiOS has a 12 month commitment, although I can cancel at no cost within the first two weeks.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I'll actually go back to the OP's posting. First off, I came from DirecTV to FiOS as well. I've had FiOS internet for almost 3 years - even if you don't opt for their TV service, I would still highly recommend the internet connection. I have their 20/5 service, and it's fast as hell, consistent as anything (I get over 20Meg down no matter when I'm on line - every time I run a speed test I get that speed and more). The upload speed comes in around 4.5 - 4.7 (apparently that's pretty normal for their 5 meg service. Their service is really rock solid, too. I've had a whopping total of 1 internet outage in the last 3 years. And that was a short one. Oh and they currently do no throttling (that 20 meg is 20 meg for me... no bursting... no throttling), and with no download caps.

About a year and a half ago I switched to FiOS TV, and I really like it. Granted, it's not for everyone. If you're into specialty sports packs (e.g. NFL ST), FiOS isn't (currently) the best place to be. The PQ really is really amazing (they've since made a recent change with regard to SD feeds on their HD boxes, though, to soften the picture - they claim that their focus groups have shown that consumers prefer it - in a future s/w release they're going to give us the ability to adjust those settings).

I would recommend doing what one of the posters mentioned - it's what I did - suspend your DirecTV service for a while to see if you like FiOS. I also believe that Verizon has a trial period. This has changed over time - at one point it was a full 90 days. I don't know where it currently sits, so you may want to ask about that.

The two areas where Verizon needs work, in my opinion:

1) Ordering - I tell people to confirm their order a day or so after they place it. When I ordered TV service, I did that, and was really confused. The ONLY thing they got right on the order - the date of the install... everything else was wrong.

2) Billing - This HAS improved considerably, but keep an eye on your bills. Random, phantom charges have been known to crop up. For example, when I made one recent change, they signed me up for their internet security package, which I never ordered.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

inkahauts said:


> In my area, all triple play plans are great for the first 3 months to a year, then they get exponetially more expensive.


There is a one year commitment with FiOS and the price is guaranteed for that period. After that, we'll see.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

IMO this switch can be summed up in 2 points:

1. FIOS = NO NFL Sunday Ticket 

2. In a year or so  this whole issue about who has the most HD won't matter. More like, who has the most channels period and then you still find junk channels only then you can watch your junk in HD.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> I haven't switched to FiOS because of cost. HD-DVR's are $15/month each (and I've got 6 right now).


I only have a single TV so this isn't an issue for me (I'm married, what can I say?).

FiOS does offer a Home Media HD DVR that can service multiple TVs for $20/month.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Reaper said:


> There is a one year commitment with FiOS and the price is guaranteed for that period. After that, we'll see.


You'll probably actually only go up about $15-$20 /month on the TV part of the "triple play" after that first year.

I believe the only break you're getting now is the $47.99 "essentials" package for $30-$35 or so.

You still need to add on to that the $10 month for the "extreme HD" channels, if you want them in addition to the HD's in the "essentials" package. Then add whatever premiums you want (HBO, SHO, et al.), plus $16/month for each HD DVR, $10/month for each HD STB and/or $7/month for each SD STB.

If you want MRV, you pay $20/month for the host DVR, and $10/month each for the HD client boxes. I believe you can have up to 3 clients, so $50/month for 4 box MRV in HD. /steve


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> You'll probably actually only go up about $15-$20 /month on the TV part of the "triple play" after that first year.
> 
> I believe the only break you're getting now is the $47.99 "essentials" package for $30-$35 or so.
> 
> ...


FiOS is offering a $99/month phone/TV/Internet package that includes the Extreme HD package. Premium movie channels are free for the first 90 days and $30/month after. I only need a single HD DVR so that's $15/month.

Right now I'm paying $85 for phone and Internet and about $125 for D*, for a combined cost of $210.

With FiOS I'll be paying $129 for the first 90 days and about $144 after.


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## bnglbill (Nov 29, 2006)

jpl said:


> Holy crap! I'm exhausted!  I'm going to have lunch. One thing I'll say - this discussion helped keeping me from falling asleep during one really boring... long... meeting here at work


I have to agree, I didn't get involved, but just reading all this has helped me get through a boring afternoon at work. I felt like I was watching one of those election debates. :lol:


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

Reaper said:


> I am admittedly a little nervous about shutting off D*, I've had it for a LONG time. I will probably continue to use it for NFL Sunday ticket though.


...what????

How is that going to save you money?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Since there are some questions about this, here's my take on the pricing. They're offering really great bundles right now. I just upgraded to their new extreme HD bundle. Prior to that I had a different bundle which gave me:

- Premier TV service (now defunct)
- 10/2 internet
- Freedom essentials phone

Total: $105/month for a 1 year contract (note, this obviously is the base price - doesn't include hardware, taxes, and other fees).

I've since upgraded to the new HD Extreme bundle which gives me:

- Extreme HD TV service (which gives you access to every non-premium HD and SD channel - and also, their sports pack is now gone - all of those channels are now rolled into this TV package).
- 20/5 internet
- Freedom essentials phone

Total: $110/month for a 1 year contract.

As for what happens after your contract is up - you can renew. Granted, at that point you'll have to lock into whatever the current deal is. So, if the triple play goes up to $120/month next year, then you can lock into it at that price, to renew your contract.

BTW, I have the MR DVR. Very slick. Yes, you can feed up to 3 additional clients at one time - with a grand total of 6 additional clients total. It allows you to watch 3 recordings concurrently (1 from the DVR directly, and one each on 2 other TVs). And it gives you access to some extras:

- Streaming of digital music and pictures (and soon to be video) from your PCs to your TV (the one with the DVR only).
- Access to remote DVR booking - they just added this feature for us... I can now schedule new recordings, delete existing ones, set up my favorites list, and manage my parental controls all from the web. And they JUST rolled out remote wireless DVR booking (being able to do the remote DVR stuff from your cell phone).


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

VaJim said:


> ...what????
> 
> How is that going to save you money?


During the seven months outside of NFL season I'll save the full $60/month. During the five months of the NFL season I'll have to pay an additonal $30/month for a basic D* package to access NFL Sunday Ticket. But I will STILL save $30/month compared to what I'm paying now.

So that's an approximate savings of $570 per year. Still confused?


----------



## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Oh yeah, and that $30 movie deal really is a great deal. You get every premium movie channel for that price - HBO, Cinemax, Showtime, TMC, Starz, Encore, Flix, Sundance, and IFC. Just a ridiculous number of channels. Plus you get access to those VOD offerings as part of that price. I currently just have the movie pack - which is Starz, TMC, Encore, Flix, Sundance, and IFC (no HBO or Cinemax).


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## 549 (Dec 8, 2007)

I just recently tried out FIOS. I've had DirecTV for 7 years and have been happy for the most part. FIOS just came to my area and I was going to get the internet service so I thought I would give the TV a try.

I considered for a few reasons. First it would save me money. I also liked the idea of the better On Demand options. The Multi Room DVR and better picture quality were also factors. With DTV I have been a little disappointed with the HR-DVR. Missed/Black recordings, lack of DLB, slow response times to the remote, limit of 50 series recordings.

The FIOS was nice but it really lacked a fully developed feature set. 

Pros: Picture was amazing. Channel line up was as good as DirecTV (for my purposes). Being able to watch shows On Demand was really nice. They had network shows that would only have 1 commercial for the entire episode on demand. Using the Multi Room DVR was nice as well. Being able to switch TVs and pick up from the same place in a show was great.

Cons: 

The DVR is really primitive IMO. The capacity is very small. I would estimate I could get about 12 hours of HD before it was full. I like to have a wide library of recorded shows so this didn't work. There wasn't a way to extended a recording for an individual show. You could only do this for a series recording. Usually I use this feature to record sporting events, which I am not setting up as a series recording. There wasn't a way to sort the list of recordings and often shows didn't have the actual episode information. The trick-play features also were very slow to respond when watching something not on the main TV. I could go on, but you get the idea...the DVR just didn't have a good feature set.

I was also disappointed with the On Demand library. While I liked having the feature there wasn't as much content as I expected.


So it really depends on what your interests are. If you are a heavy DVR user you may be a little disappointed with the Verizon DVR. If you like the sports packs you may also be a little dissapointed though I will say in regard to a comment earlier in Southern California FIOS does have the Big Ten Network in HD. If you are looking for Top picture quality, HBO in HD, more On Demand options then FIOS may be right for you.

After a week I called and canceled FIOS TV and went back to DirecTV (I never disconnected it).


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## man_rob (Feb 21, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Whew......


As always, a thoughtful response.

God forbid I comment on FiOS, versus DirecTV in a thread discussing such matters.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Reaper said:


> FiOS is offering a $99/month phone/TV/Internet package that includes the Extreme HD package. Premium movie channels are free for the first 90 days and $30/month after. I only need a single HD DVR so that's $15/month.
> 
> Right now I'm paying $85 for phone and Internet and about $125 for D*, for a combined cost of $210.
> 
> With FiOS I'll be paying $129 for the first 90 days and about $144 after.


Why so much for DirecTV with one DVR? In NY, there are also about $10-$15 phone taxes you need to add to the FiOS $99/month. I forget exactly how much they run. /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

man_rob said:


> As always, a thoughtful response.
> 
> God forbid I comment on FiOS, versus DirecTV in a thread discussing such matters.


Yes, full of thought....on a site pertaining to DBS...

All comments welcome...enjoy.....I've been entertained enough on this topic and have moved on....have fun...


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Why so much for DirecTV with one DVR? In NY, there are also about $10-$15 phone taxes you need to add to the FiOS $99/month. I forget exactly how much they run. /steve


Not to overstate the obvious, but the phone taxes are just for the phone service. Which means that if the OP currently has Verizon phone service, he's paying them anyway. That won't change for him. There is, however, a franchise fee that you'll need to pay for TV service - it's generally really small though (although it does vary by state) - mine's really minor. If he doesn't get Verizon phone service for this deal (say he just goes with FiOS TV and internet, but doesn't have a landline) then he doesn't get hit with those phone taxes at all.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> Not to overstate the obvious, but the phone taxes are just for the phone service. Which means that if the OP currently has Verizon phone service, he's paying them anyway. That won't change for him. There is, however, a franchise fee that you'll need to pay for TV service - it's generally really small though (although it does vary by state) - mine's really minor. If he doesn't get Verizon phone service for this deal (say he just goes with FiOS TV and internet, but doesn't have a landline) then he doesn't get hit with those phone taxes at all.


Agree. Just pointing out that $99 really isn't $99, in the interest of full disclosure.  E.g., my Vonage VOIP (prepaid for a year) is $25/month, including taxes.

So I currently pay a total of $123 ($40 for Verizon FiOS, $25 for Vonage and $48 + $10 HD to DirecTV) for the equivalent of what you get in the $124 ($99 + $15 taxes and fees + $10 extreme HD) Verizon package after 3 months. And that package will probably rise to $150-$160 after 12 months, since you'll probably pay more for each leg of the Triple-Play.

None of those numbers included costs for DVR's and STB's. /steve


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Agree. Just pointing out that $99 really isn't $99, in the interest of full disclosure.  E.g., my Vonage VOIP (prepaid for a year) is $25/month, including taxes.
> 
> So I currently pay a total of $123 ($40 for Verizon FiOS, $25 for Vonage and $48 + $10 HD to DirecTV) for the equivalent of what you get in the $114 ($99 + $15 taxes and fees) Verizon package after 3 months. And that package will rise to $130 after 12 months. /steve


Good point. I just broke it down because I read, frequently (and erroneously) that you get hit with those charges if you just get TV or internet service. I also read (again, incorrectly) that just getting their internet service causes you to get hit with the franchise fee.

I also agree that you need to do a real apples-to-apples comparison. Take the set-up that you have, and see how much it costs on one vs. the other. That's what I did - and found out that switching saved me some money. If your setup is different (e.g. if you have say 4 DVRs) then the equation obviously changes.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Reaper said:


> During the seven months outside of NFL season I'll save the full $60/month. During the five months of the NFL season I'll have to pay an additonal $30/month for a basic D* package to access NFL Sunday Ticket. But I will STILL save $30/month compared to what I'm paying now.
> 
> So that's an approximate savings of $570 per year. Still confused?


That a good savings, especially after factoring in the D* costs for NFL ST. If they had Fios in my area and the savings worked out that way for me, I know that I would switch. Ironically, my recent switch from TW cable to D* and AT&T DSL is saving me almost the exact same amount the first year (D* savings $445, AT&T DSL savings $132).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> I also agree that you need to do a real apples-to-apples comparison. Take the set-up that you have, and see how much it costs on one vs. the other.


Exactly. Before we got distracted by that copper nonsense, I think I calculated somewhere that my set-up now is $93 for 6 HD DVR's and one STB (no premiums), $25 for Vonage and $40 for FiOS. Total $158/month.

The FiOS Triple Play in NY would cost me $99 + $15 (taxes and fees) + $10 (Extreme HD) + $10 (HD STB) + $64 (4-HD DVR's)... total $189/month for months 1-3 (no Extreme HD fee), and $199/month for months 3-12. Would probably go up to $230/month for months 13 on.

I'm not sure how this equation changes if you add HD TiVo's instead of the Verizon DVR's, but I suspect that the TiVo GUIDE data subscription charges alone for 6 DVR's would be prohibitive, not to mention the outlay for the boxes. Haven't researched this, however. /steve


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Exactly. Before we got distracted by that copper nonsense, I think I calculated somewhere that my set-up now is $93 for 6 HD DVR's and one STB (no premiums), $25 for Vonage and $40 for FiOS. Total $158/month.
> 
> The FiOS Triple Play in NY would cost me $99 + $15 (taxes and fees) + $10 (Extreme HD) + $10 (HD STB) + $64 (4-HD DVR's)... total $189/month for months 1-3 (no Extreme HD fee), and $199/month for months 3-12. Would probably go up to $230/month for months 13 on.
> 
> I'm not sure how this equation changes if you add HD TiVo's instead of the Verizon DVR's, but I suspect that the TiVo GUIDE data subscription charges alone for 6 DVR's would be prohibitive, not to mention the outlay for the boxes. Haven't researched this, however. /steve


Right - I just realized - you're in the NY area. Your pricing/packages are different (I won't get into the details, but suffice to say that you guys get a better price than anyone else because Verizon is trying to attract NYC customers). For example, for me an HD STB will be $10/month. For you it would be $6. Although the DVRs are the same price.

As for tivo - you wouldn't save anything. I priced it out, and simply couldn't justify the cost. First off, like you said, you would need Tivo service, which, even if you prepay for 3 years, would cost you, I believe, about $9/month (and I think that's per DVR). Then you need cable cards. And there's the rub. Right now Verizon is JUST starting to stock up on M-cards. So you would need 2 S-cards per DVR! That's alot of money.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> Why so much for DirecTV with one DVR?


CHOICE XTRA Monthly $57.99 
HBO, STARZ!, SHOWTIME, & CINEMAX Monthly $43.00 
DIRECTV HD EXTRA PACK Monthly $4.99 
HD Access Monthly $9.99 
DIRECTV DVR Service Monthly $5.99


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

Steve,

The HD STB price is now $5.99/month in NY & N NJ, the price dropped $4/month on it. Another reason I am probably going to get them as my backup TV provider, since Cablevision is going to charge $6.50/month for their HD STB.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

cforrest said:


> Steve,
> 
> The HD STB price is now $5.99/month in NY & N NJ, the price dropped $4/month on it. Another reason I am probably going to get them as my backup TV provider, since Cablevision is going to charge $6.50/month for their HD STB.


Good to hear. $10/month for a vanilla HD box was kind of absurd, IMO, especially since they now nail you for that "extreme HD" monthly fee. And they should drop the HD DVR's to $10/month from $16, especially since you can only store 20 hours of HD programming on them. Just my .02. /steve


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

The only real concern that I have about FiOS is the small HD DVR hard drive (160 GB or about 20 hours of HD recording time). I've done a little more research online and it is rumored that Verizon will be adding external hard drive support to their late model DVRs shortly after the new year, probably via eSATA.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Reaper said:


> The only real concern that I have about FiOS is the small HD DVR hard drive (160 GB or about 20 hours of HD recording time). I've done a little more research online and it is rumored that Verizon will be adding external hard drive support to their late model DVRs shortly after the new year, probably via eSATA.


Yup. Pricing aside, 20 hours HD would definitely be a show-stopper for us, especially if we wanted to consider their MRV offering. That's not even a week's worth of shows for us, so if went away on vacation, we'd be out of luck. /steve


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> Yup. Pricing aside, 20 hours HD would definitely be a show-stopper for us, especially if we wanted to consider their MRV offering. That's not even a week's worth of shows for us, so if went away on vacation, we'd be out of luck. /steve


That's a good point Steve!


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## Ed Campbell (Feb 17, 2006)

So, people with fiber still pay for telephone? And they have a cellphone?

We yanked our landline soon after we switched to Skype. When I call a landline - which therefore isn't free - I pay 2¢ a minute.

We use pay-as-you-go cellphones for emergencies and whatever.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Ed Campbell said:


> So, people with fiber still pay for telephone? And they have a cellphone?


Perhaps as a sign of what's coming, early this summer, Verizon began bundling broadband access and cell service into a "double-play". /steve


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## Dolly (Jan 30, 2007)

I have to have Verizon for phone service where I live. And they may be a very good company elsewhere, but here they are awful :eek2: I'm certainly not going to get involved with Verizon for TV when they can't even provide good phone service :raspberry


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

captain_video said:


> I switched to FIOS from DirecTV back in Feb '07 and never looked back. Verizon added a bunch of HD channels to their lineup back in September of this year and recently added the HD Extreme package which adds even more HD channels. The package only costs $10 more per month but as an added bonus they bump up your internet download speed from 5Mbps to 20Mbps as part of the upgrade. I have TV, internet, landline phone, and wireless phone all from Verizon and they combine everything into a single monthly bill, which really helps with the budgeting. Plus, I get a discount on my TV service for having the combined package.


I note your speeds there, captain, because I've got Comcast as my ISP and I consistently run around 30-35Mbps down and 4-6Mbps up, and that's on their basic service. I'm not complaining about those speeds at all.


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

There is always FIOS Voice, Verizon's VOIP to replace FIOS POTS, due to roll out in 2009. No taxes on that since it is VOIP and caller ID will appear on cable boxes.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

Just wait--your muncipality or state will get around to taxing VoIP service soon enough. That happened to me with my Vonage service. A year after having that, they Emailed their customers here that they were now legally required to assess several local and state taxes.


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## djlong (Jul 8, 2002)

That's one (of many) reasons I live in NH. The legislature meets on a less than monthly basis and only gets paid a couple of hundred dollars a year. Keeps the state government in check.


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> Just wait--your muncipality or state will get around to taxing VoIP service soon enough. That happened to me with my Vonage service. A year after having that, they Emailed their customers here that they were now legally required to assess several local and state taxes.


Here in Portland OR, the powers that be are now talking about taxing the residents for trees!! :eek2: Yes, taxing for having trees.:nono2: 
So anything is possible.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> I note your speeds there, captain, because I've got Comcast as my ISP and I consistently run around 30-35Mbps down and 4-6Mbps up, and that's on their basic service. I'm not complaining about those speeds at all.


Those are impressive speeds. Are they consistent no matter when you're on line? I just know of other cable HSI service which can degrade alot during peak times. Also, do they throttle your speeds? If you're doing a heavy download, are you hitting 30 - 35 Mbps the entire time?

That, to me, has been one of the key differences between FiOS internet and other cable HSI services - consistency (same speed no matter when I get on), no throttling of any kind, and no download caps.

A recent convert from Cox HSI to FiOS did a side by side performance test, and while Cox was faster at say 10 AM, his FiOS speeds remained the same throughout the day. While Cox slid all the way down to about 1.7Mpbs down (from 30 at 10 AM) around dinner time.


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## Artwood (May 30, 2006)

How much difference in picture quality is there between SD channels on DirecTV and SD channels on FIOS?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Artwood said:


> How much difference in picture quality is there between SD channels on DirecTV and SD channels on FIOS?


I can give some input here. First off, I always thought DirecTV looked darn nice on my 27" SDTV (Sony). Comparing apples to apples (I now have FiOS SD on that TV), and while DirecTV looked darn nice, FiOS just looks much nicer. The picture is sharper, more vibrant, and just has more 'depth' to it - there's no other way to put it. I can't give a comparison on HD, since I never had HD service with DirecTV, but I have to say, on SD PQ, Verizon wins hands down.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> I can give some input here. First off, I always thought DirecTV looked darn nice on my 27" SDTV (Sony). Comparing apples to apples (I now have FiOS SD on that TV), and while DirecTV looked darn nice, FiOS just looks much nicer. The picture is sharper, more vibrant, and just has more 'depth' to it - there's no other way to put it. I can't give a comparison on HD, since I never had HD service with DirecTV, but I have to say, on SD PQ, Verizon wins hands down.


I guess it's subjective. My son and sisters all have FiOS connected to 4:3 CRTs, 42" and 50" and 55" 720p plasmas and one sony 720p projector on a 100" screen. To my eyes (20/20 corrected vision), SD looks no better or worse than on my own DirecTV-connected CRT's, or 42" and 50" plasmas. When I watch Direct SD on my 13" or 27" Sony CRT's, I get that same feeling of "vibrance and depth" that *jpl *refers to above, and I'm a pretty fussy viewer... I paid almost twice what I had to for my Fujitsu 50" plasma because of what I considered to be superior picture quality at the time.

I might feel differently one way or the other if I could view the same show side-by-side on both systems, but based on my "memory comparison", they are equal. Same with Verizon MPEG-2 HD vs. DirecTV MPEG-4. Aside from smoother trickplay with FiosTV, picture quality is identical, IMO.

/steve


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## nickg2 (Nov 28, 2005)

the one main thing that would keep me from switching from DirecTV to FIOS is that i would no longer have east/west nets. until i can no longer have them i wouldn't switch. 

which is all a MOOT point as FIOS isn't even close to being available where i live right now anyway. but if it was i would DEFINITELY get FIOS internet, hands down.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

I wonder what the price would be relative to what I'm currently paying for Comcast. I get about 25-30 megs down and 7-8 megs up for $32.95/mo. w/ Comcast. I can't complain about those speeds at that price.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> I wonder what the price would be relative to what I'm currently paying for Comcast. I get about 25-30 megs down and 7-8 megs up for $32.95/mo. w/ Comcast. I can't complain about those speeds at that price.


In my area, charter will get you about half that speed, for around 59.99 a month.. Which is why I have DSL.... (that and the fact that I literally cut the cable line from the pole to the house when I got Directv years ago... :hurah:


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

The only thing keeping me with D* right now is NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> I note your speeds there, captain, because I've got Comcast as my ISP and I consistently run around 30-35Mbps down and 4-6Mbps up, and that's on their basic service. I'm not complaining about those speeds at all.


yeah but soon Comcast will be limiting how much you can download or upload in a month, if you go over ,you will pay more

though good point, i spoke with head of Time Warner Cable LA, he said that they were going to offer higher bandwidth up and down shortly, definitely enough to compete head to head with fios, alot of their system is actually fiber.


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## mitchelljd (Aug 16, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> The only thing keeping me with D* right now is NFL Sunday Ticket.


me also, after they got rid of tivo hd, it kind of pissed me off. but now that fios is coming to my neighborhood in Q1 2009, literally they are starting to build out in january, i dont know what i will do.

I know that i will definitely get the internet from fios, but i also am curious about the tv offering. wonder if directv will offer some discounting to keep me. ie, offer up similar tv pricing.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Lord Vader said:


> I wonder what the price would be relative to what I'm currently paying for Comcast. I get about 25-30 megs down and 7-8 megs up for $32.95/mo. w/ Comcast. I can't complain about those speeds at that price.


I pay $40/month for 10/2 FiOS, unlimited. I believe I'm grandfathered, though, and new customers will pay $42.

FiOS "triple play" customers get either 20/2 or 20/5, I forget which.

One big drawback with FiOS DVR's at the moment (aside from very high monthly costs), is that you're limited to 20 hours HD storage. That's barely enough for the wife and I for a week (during "first-run" prime-time weeks), and if we go away for a week, we'd miss shows entirely. This storage issue also makes their MRV solution less desirable, IMO.

/steve


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## Upstream (Jul 4, 2006)

Artwood said:


> How much difference in picture quality is there between SD channels on DirecTV and SD channels on FIOS?


Can't speak directly to FIOS, but DirecTV's picture quality for SD has deteriorated over what it was about 8 years ago. While my perception is that DirecTV used to have DVD quality pictures in SD, it now seems to be VCR quality.

Last year I compared DirecTV picture quality to TWC at my brother-in-law's house (he has both services during football season so he can get Sunday Ticket). Comparing the same channels on the same TV, the SD picture quality for TWC was considerably better than the picture quality for DirecTV.

I recently switched from DirecTV to Comcast. The PQ on the Comcast analog SD channels is similar to the PQ on DirecTV. The PQ on the Comcast digital SD channels is much better than what I got on DirecTV.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> I guess it's subjective. My son and sisters all have FiOS connected to 4:3 CRTs, 42" and 50" and 55" 720p plasmas and one sony 720p projector on a 100" screen. To my eyes (20/20 corrected vision), SD looks no better or worse than on my own DirecTV-connected CRT's, or 42" and 50" plasmas. When I watch Direct SD on my 13" or 27" Sony CRT's, I get that same feeling of "vibrance and depth" that *jpl *refers to above, and I'm a pretty fussy viewer... I paid almost twice what I had to for my Fujitsu 50" plasma because of what I considered to be superior picture quality at the time.
> 
> I might feel differently one way or the other if I could view the same show side-by-side on both systems, but based on my "memory comparison", they are equal. Same with Verizon MPEG-2 HD vs. DirecTV MPEG-4. Aside from smoother trickplay with FiosTV, picture quality is identical, IMO.
> 
> /steve


Yeah, of course it is subjective, however I'm comparing feeds on the exact same TV. There is most noticeably a difference. I'll give a (admittedly stupid) example that convinced me. Right after we got FiOS I watched Robin Hood Men in Tights on ABC Family. That's a channel that I always thought got really overcompressed with DirecTV. There's a scene in the very beginning where you have flaming arrows going through a night sky. On DirecTV that would have been largely unwatchable (sorry, but the overcompression on that channel would have been really apparent on even that small of a screen). When I watched it on FiOS and saw zero compression artifacts, my jaw hit the floor.

This isn't just my opinion either. A co-worker who was also a long time DirecTV customer (he was the guy who convinced me to go with DirecTV) just also made the jump to FiOS. He's an SD only guy (I'm trying to convince him that he NEEDS an HD TV, but that's another story). When his DirecTV Tivo started to die, he decided that that was as good a time as any to consider switching (the idea of having ANOTHER 2 year contract with DirecTV didn't sit well with him), so he switched to FiOS. Right after he got hooked up he came over to my desk and said 'why didn't you tell me?' I said 'tell you what?' 'That the PQ on FiOS is THAT much better than what I got before!' The one advantage that FiOS has is that they don't do any additional compression. DirecTV does - especially on SD. And they don't do it evenly - some channels (e.g. ABC Family) is compressed to hell, in my opinion, while others much less so. Sure, there are some SD channels that look less than stellar on FiOS - after all: crap in, crap out. If they're overcompressed at the source (and some are), then they'll be overcompressed when they get to your TV.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> I pay $40/month for 10/2 FiOS, unlimited. I believe I'm grandfathered, though, and new customers will pay $42.
> 
> FiOS "triple play" customers get either 20/2 or 20/5, I forget which.
> 
> ...


Depends which triple play you get. If you get the one with the Essentials (basically their SD) package, you get 10/2. If you get the Extreme HD package, then you get 20/5. I have the latter, and my triple play is $110/month, which includes the TV package, freedom essentials phone (including unlimited calls), and 20/5 internet. Of course it doesn't include things like hardware, or other taxes and fees. The Essentials triple play, I believe, is either $90 or $100/month - I can't remember which, but I think it's $90.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Not very scientific, and not a FiOS to DirecTV comparison, but here's a similar ABC Family scene on channel 311 SD and 311 HD taken a little while ago, using an HR20-700 connected to a Sony 27" Wega CRT via component video cables.

I shot them using a Canon Powershot and then screen-grabbed them side-by-side on my desktop PC, for direct comparison purposes. You can barely see the "h" for "hd" bug on the right hand corner of the first attachment, but the image on the left is ABCF SD and the one on the right is ABCF HD. Both photos are unmanipulated, except for cropping and identical scaling. /steve


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## 549 (Dec 8, 2007)

Steve said:


> I pay $40/month for 10/2 FiOS, unlimited. I believe I'm grandfathered, though, and new customers will pay $42.
> 
> FiOS "triple play" customers get either 20/2 or 20/5, I forget which.
> 
> ...


I would have to agree about the storage capacity on the Verizon DVR. I tried out FIOS for 2 weeks and this was a deal breaker. Especially when you consider that you only have 1 DVR for the whole house (MRV). It filled up so quick and there was barely any programming on it.

Also the DVR just didn't have a lot of functionality. I am not a fan of DTV's HR series (I think TIVO is much better, just my opinion) but it blows away Verizon's DVR. It is difficult to navigate, doesn't give you a lot of options on how to record and display things, and the guide is more compact.

As far as the picture, FIOS was certainly better but I felt it was only a slight improvement over DirecTV. I am perfectly satisfied with the picture on DirecTV and don't have any major complaints about it.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

To Steve:

That's a good point, actually. The SD feed over the mpeg-4 channels would probably look alot better than the SD feed over the mpeg-2 channels on DirecTV. I never had HD with DirecTV, so I can't speak to that.

To 549:

You don't HAVE to use their MRV DVR. You can get 7 standalone DVRs if you want... or get a Tivo off the shelf. Granted, if you want the multi-room feeds with the motorola DVR, then yeah, you need a single DVR (can't feed DVR to DVR, e.g.), and I do agree with the issue with the capacity limitation. They really need a bigger harddrive.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> That's a good point, actually. The SD feed over the mpeg-4 channels would probably look alot better than the SD feed over the mpeg-2 channels on DirecTV. I never had HD with DirecTV, so I can't speak to that.


Actually, viewing it live on the Sony 27" this morning (and as you can see from my pix), there wasn't a huge difference in PQ between ABCF SD viewed on 311 vs. ABCF SD viewed on 311 HD, so unless DirecTV is compressing the heck out of ABCF HD (which I don't believe to be the case), I don't see how that same show would look better on FiOS SD at normal viewing distances. Just my .02. /steve


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Actually, viewing it live on the Sony 27" this morning (and as you can see from my pix), there wasn't a huge difference in PQ between ABCF SD viewed on 311 vs. ABCF SD viewed on 311 HD, so unless DirecTV is compressing the heck out of ABCF HD (which I don't believe to be the case), I don't see how that same show would look better on FiOS SD at normal viewing distances. Just my .02. /steve


It could be that they're not compressing it as much as they used to. I know they adjust their compression as needs arise (to free up bandwidth). I just seem to remember how much that channel would get compressed whenever I tried watching it.


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## 549 (Dec 8, 2007)

jpl said:


> To Steve:
> 
> To 549:
> 
> You don't HAVE to use their MRV DVR. You can get 7 standalone DVRs if you want... or get a Tivo off the shelf. Granted, if you want the multi-room feeds with the motorola DVR, then yeah, you need a single DVR (can't feed DVR to DVR, e.g.), and I do agree with the issue with the capacity limitation. They really need a bigger harddrive.


This is true, but my understanding is that each additional HD-DVR is $19.95/ month. I also looked into the TIVO but spending $600(per box) + $13/month was more than I wanted to spend. Additionally you lose the on-demand content with the TIVO. These are certainly other options but they weren't realist options for me at those prices.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

549 said:


> This is true, but my understanding is that each additional HD-DVR is $19.95/ month. I also looked into the TIVO but spending $600(per box) + $13/month was more than I wanted to spend. Additionally you lose the on-demand content with the TIVO. These are certainly other options but they weren't realist options for me at those prices.


You're right - either option is relatively expensive if you have a number of TVs to hook up. The stand-alone HD DVR with Verizon is $16/month. The MR DVR is $20/month. And yeah, even though the Tivos are coming down in price (I believe you can get a Tivo HD for about $250), you still have to pay for their service on top of paying for Verizon's. Not to mention that you'd need to lease cable cards for your Tivo(s), and like you said, you wouldn't have VOD.


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## Ira Lacher (Apr 24, 2002)

Ah, FIOS. Another technology that will come to Des Moines, Iowa, after it's obsolete everywhere else!


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

Ira Lacher said:


> Ah, FIOS. Another technology that will come to Des Moines, Iowa, after it's obsolete everywhere else!


They haven't even got analog cable working here yet.


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## ampman337 (Aug 24, 2007)

Lord Vader said:


> I wonder what the price would be relative to what I'm currently paying for Comcast. I get about 25-30 megs down and 7-8 megs up for $32.95/mo. w/ Comcast. I can't complain about those speeds at that price.


Not that I'm not a believer..........but would you care to share a speed test with us?


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

ampman337 said:


> Not that I'm not a believer..........but would you care to share a speed test with us?


"_Lord Vader
Join Date: Sep 20, 2004
Location: The Galactic Empire
Posts: 3,044 
User# 8818"_

Speeds must be much higher on the "Galactic Empire". Actually, I agree with ampman337, you need to run a speed test. My brother has Time Warner and it was rated for 10 Mbps, but was only getiing 3.5 Mbps.


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## skylox (Aug 10, 2008)

> I wonder what the price would be relative to what I'm currently paying for Comcast. I get about 25-30 megs down and 7-8 megs up for $32.95/mo. w/ Comcast. I can't complain about those speeds at that price.


Nice....Im geting about 25-30 down but only 3-4 up....and Im paying $49.99/month
and thats with their so called "boost" for an extra $9.99....without boost I only get 12-14 down and 1-2 up


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

I blame no one for switching service between vendors.

HDTV service tends to be a personal thing, often based on the combination or perceived value and specific interests for viewing. This topic has been addressed here countless times before.

What is often interesting, is how 2 (or more) different people see the same service in contrasting ways. 

Again, this is not surprising, as the particular interests of the viewer may be weighted differently, in terms of personal benefit or preference.

No service provider today has the "perfect" answer to providing the optimum HDTV products or service. All of them have strengths and weaknesses. In one case, it may be the number of channels, in another, the Customer Service level (or lack thereof), another still perhaps the kinds/line of programming of HD channels offered.

FIOS is indeed an intriguing means to deliver digital television. It is not, however, without its own problems. Many of these have been well documented, so there's no need to be redundant here. As a limited-availability offering, the jury is still out as to how they will compete beyond their current market areas. In my case - it won't be offered in this market until at least some time mid 2012 at the soonest.

It appears that the OP did a good job of articulating his initial experiences. He noted the lack of quality customer service and a smaller HD channel inventory, which are cited by a number of other folks who "make the switch". 

Hopefully for his sake, after perhaps a year or so of service, he remains satisfied.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It appears that the OP did a good job of articulating his initial experiences. He noted the lack of quality customer service and a smaller HD channel inventory, which are cited by a number of other folks who "make the switch".


Wrong thread. I think you want to post over here. And if you re-read his post, he said, _"Including East and West Coast feeds, FiOS has 42 HD premium movie channels compared to 15 on D*, and for just $30/month. There's no comparison really."_

And another post in that thread lists over 100 FiOS HD channels, not counting PPV or RSNs! /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> FIOS is indeed an intriguing means to deliver digital television. It is not, however, without its own problems. Many of these have been well documented, so there's no need to be redundant here.


Besides only 20 hours of HD storage, what are some of the other problems? /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> Wrong thread. I think you want to post over here. And if you re-read his post, he said, _"Including East and West Coast feeds, FiOS has 42 HD premium movie channels compared to 15 on D*, and for just $30/month. There's no comparison really."_ /steve


You are right...I meant to reference the other OP in the other thread (sich he did a thorough and great job of sharing his experience) and forgot to include the link reference....

As for the last sentence "there's no comparison"...that's a matter of opinion, and I would not share yours. The HD channel selections are very limited unless you prefer many redundant movie channels.


Steve said:


> Besides only 20 hours of HD storage, what are some of the other problems? /steve


I thought we weren't going down that road. The issues go beyond just the DVR.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You are right...I meant to reference the other OP in the other thread (sich he did a thorough and great job of sharing his experience) and forgot to include the link reference....
> 
> As for the last sentence "there's no comparison"...that's a matter of opinion, and I would not share yours. The HD channel selections are very limited unless you prefer many redundant movie channels.


You're right, it is a matter of opinion. But you put words in the Op's mouth that weren't his:


hdtvfan0001 said:


> He noted the lack of quality customer service and a smaller HD channel inventory


This post lists over 100 HD channels available on FiOS that are not PPV or RSN's, so others can judge for themselves.

_______________​


hdtvfan0001 said:


> I thought we weren't going down that road. The issues go beyond just the DVR.


If that's what you meant, then you should say that, rather than imply the FiOS platform is flawed:


hdtvfan0001 said:


> FIOS is indeed an intriguing means to deliver digital television. It is not, however, without its own problems. Many of these have been well documented


 /steve


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Steve said:


> Besides only 20 hours of HD storage, what are some of the other problems? /steve


I assume you're referring to the Motorola QIP-6416 HD DVR that Verizon uses. If so, the one other major shortcoming of that DVR is the fact that it only has a single set of IR codes, making it extremely difficult, if not darn near impossible, to have more than one of these beasts in the same room without interfering with each other's operation via remote. The inceredibly low HD capacity almost demands that more than one of these be used for the diehard timeshifting couch potato, yet the features, or lack thereof, virtually prevents this from being viable.

FWIW, I do receive over 100 HD channels with FIOS. Here's the list of channels I am able receive in HD for Howard County. I don't count any PPV channels in the mix because I don't view any PPV events or movies. I do pay for HBO and the HD Extreme package but none of the other premium channels so the actual number of HD channels I can watch without forking over any extra dough is more like 75. In reality, there's only a handful of the HD channels I watch since I get all of my HD locals via OTA antenna, although I'm really tempted to get into the World Fishing Network in HD (yep, that's a real nice one, Bubba ).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I assume you're referring to the Motorola QIP-6416 HD DVR that Verizon uses. If so, the one other major shortcoming of that DVR is the fact that it only has a single set of IR codes, making it extremely difficult, if not darn near impossible, to have more than one of these beasts in the same room without interfering with each other's operation via remote. The inceredibly low HD capacity almost demands that more than one of these be used for the diehard timeshifting couch potato, yet the features, or lack thereof, virtually prevents this from being viable.


Ya. It's boggles my mind that they haven't come up with an external drive patch yet. Verizon typically does a lot of customer research, so they have to be aware 20 hours is a serious limitation. Even if you could operate two DVR's in the same room, at $16/month per, that would be cost prohibitive for most folks. Just my .02.

/steve


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> Ya. It's boggles my mind that they haven't come up with an external drive patch yet. Verizon typically does a lot of customer research, so they have to be aware 20 hours is a serious limitation. Even if you could operate two DVR's in the same room, at $16/month per, that would be cost prohibitive for most folks. Just my .02.
> 
> Yes. According to Verizon, back in September, c|net did an "objective" NY HD count (no locals, rsns, PPV or duplicate movie channels), and FiOS TV was the clear HD leader at the time, by a count of 83 to 67.
> 
> /steve


Posted elsewhere, but I think this is a great comparison chart - and it's pretty up to date too (although I think some of their counts are off by a bit):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1058081

And hey, yeah WFN isn't my cup of tea, but I have to admit the PQ looks pretty darn amazing on that channel.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> You're right, it is a matter of opinion.
> 
> If that's what you meant, then you should say that, rather than imply the FiOS platform is flawed: /steve


It is flawed...but that was not the purpose nor more than a fraction of my overall post. 

I also stated that all services are flawed in one way or another....so where's the beef? :lol:


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It is flawed...but that was not the purpose nor more than a fraction of my overall post.


If you can't stand by a statement, why make it at all, no matter what % of a post it is? The way you phrased it, someone who may not done their homework yet might think that FiOS TV is a service they should avoid.

You said Verizon's problems were "well documented". Aside from the limited HD storage, that's news to me, and I'm simply asking for clarification. /steve


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> If you can't stand by a statement, why make it at all, no matter what % of a post it is?


Not a problem, because its true.


> The way you phrased it, someone who may not done their homework yet might think that FiOS TV is a service they should avoid.


Two weekends with someone who has used it now for over 9 months, has 2 DVRs with them, and see it in action for 6 days was enough to formulate an informed view.


> You said Verizon's problems were "well documented". Aside from the limited HD storage, that's news to me, and I'm simply asking for clarification. /steve


There have been several threads here on this topic before, and the idea was not to bring up the same-old-same-old all over again. But for the sake of satisfying your request for additional examples...here's a small sampling "offsite":

http://www.erikjheels.com/?p=690

http://community.crutchfield.com/forums/thread/47231.aspx

http://libizblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/the-fios-affair-1-year-later-no-hd/

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talk-back/269/verizon-fios-issues-problems-and-trouble

Again....I originally stated that all services have ups and downs. My main point was that FIOS, like any other, is not anywhere near the "perfect" provider that some would make it out to be. I'm not surprised....its still very new, and regionalized in availability. Perhaps in another year or two they'll have many of these things licked.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not a problem, because its true.
> 
> Two weekends with someone who has used it now for over 9 months, has 2 DVRs with them, and see it in action for 6 days was enough to formulate an informed view.
> 
> ...


So, let me get this right - you post links from a couple random guys, who had random problems, and this is symptomatic of a systemic problem with the system? Huh? The first deals with what sounds to be a bad router. What was the resolution? Hmm... doesn't say. I guess that means that it's a system-wide problem.

The second deals with a handshake issue with HDMI - an issue that's far from specific to Verizon - alot of TV manufacturers suck at providing updates to their firmware to correctly handle HDMI handshakes.

Let's see - the third deals with a lack of HD channels. Um... look at the date on that one. That one's now moot, wouldn't you say?

The only one that I consider a legitimate beef is the final article - and not even all of it. The issue with billing - that's one area where Verizon really does suck. I've never had any serious billing issues (a very minor one a few months ago, which was quickly taken care of). But the 'not subscribed' issue? You mean that TV providers aren't allowed to create new tiers? Did the guy LOSE any channels that he had? Um, no he didn't. He was grandfathered into those channels. What he also doesn't say, is that the first suite of new HD channels - and there were some 50 of them - were also grandfathered into his old package. So, Verizon added some 70+ HD channels, and the first 50 or so were grandfathered into his old package. I fail to see the issue here. Verizon didn't do what DirecTV did and say 'you know those HD-only channels that you really like and already have? Well, guess what? You get to pay an extra $10 a month for them!' Nope - that's not what they did at all - they added a boatload of new HD channels, and gave everyone who was with the old package access to a large majority of them. How horrible!

What you're hitting here are incidental problems. If I comb through this forum I'll bet I find analogous ones for DirecTV. None of these (aside from their billing) indicates any real issue with FiOS at all.

Is FiOS perfect? No, of course not. There are nits that I have:

1) Their billing, like I said, sucks - I know way too many people who've had to deal with billing problems, even if my experience has been really good.

2) Their on-line ordering system, while improved, still leaves much to be desired.

3) I wish that their DVRs had more space on them, and there is some functionality that I miss from my DirecTV days (mark & delete, searching by channel, autorecord).

4) I think their equipment prices are a tad too high, but they make up for it by making their service cheaper than most out there.

But things like bad equipment? All providers have that issue. Thinks like handshake issues with HDMI? I wish that wasn't a problem, but it is - across the board. Lack of HD offerings? Not a problem anymore.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not a problem, because its true.
> 
> Two weekends with someone who has used it now for over 9 months, has 2 DVRs with them, and see it in action for 6 days was enough to formulate an informed view.


Once again, it would be nice to know what issues you observed that led to your statement. You have yet to personally cite one example to back up your comments.



> There have been several threads here on this topic before, and the idea was not to bring up the same-old-same-old all over again. But for the sake of satisfying your request for additional examples...here's a small sampling "offsite":


Yes, there have been several threads on this topic on this site, with no significant operational issues mentioned, so I'm still not sure what "same-old-same-old" you refer to, relative to the discussions we've had here.

But enough of this... to those who may be considering FiOS, based on hours I have spent using my son's and both sister's FiOS installations, I can say that depending on your needs, FiOS is an excellent option. When deciding which way to go, however, if you record a lot or HD, you'll need to keep in mind that you can only store 20 hours worth of shows on a single box. The up side is that it's uncompressed MPEG-2 HD, so the trick play is smooth as silk. And if you need several DVR's, they are costly... $16/month apiece, though there is no "up front" capital layout, as there may be with DirecTV, depending on what kind of deal you negotiate. /steve

/steve


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Verizon has the best TV delivery platform in the country, hands down. The CPE could be better, but that's something that can be fixed relatively easily down the road. They started off with an excellent base platform, which is what's important. That's where AT&T dropped the ball with U-verse. The platform, fundamentally, is just crap.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> So, let me get this right - ......
> 
> What you're hitting here are incidental problems.


They're called examples, which is what was asked for....I can share hundreds more of them if you'd like, but again, for those who chose *not* to actually read original statement (and/or understand it)....

I wished the person well and stated that *every* service has issues, and FIOS is not *anywhere near *immune from problems either.

By the way...you apparently didn't bother read past the first page or so of those threads - had you done so... you would have easily and clearly seen there is alot more substance and additional testimonials there and more recent information as well. Hardly "incidental".

As for what I observed firsthand, it was inconsistent performance from the HD DVR, occasional signal breakup during one ABC sports event, and an HD presentation that was no better or no worse than Dish or DirecTV on a $7000 plasma which had been ISF calibrated only 3 weeks earlier.

My point is simply *FIOS is neither perfect / void of flaws*. Why not keep it simple and *agree to disagree*.

I respect that you clearly think its great, aut I disagree that it also has its flaws like any other service.

In the spirit of a reasonable discussion, lets just move on. I've more than made my point, and I beleive you have as well....perhaps we can give others "the floor" here.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> As for what I observed firsthand, it was inconsistent performance from the HD DVR [...]


More disparaging comments with no specific examples. Not helpful at all to anyone who comes to this thread for information about the topic.


> ... occasional signal breakup during one ABC sports event, and an HD presentation that was no better o,r no worse than Dish or DirecTV on a $7000 plasma which had been ISF calibrated only 3 weeks earlier.


Irrelevant to the discussion. We know that Verizon delivers the equivalent of an unaltered OTA MPEG-2 HD signal, so it represents the present state of the art of HD TV. Whether or not it compares to Dish or DirecTV is not relevant to this discussion, IMO, unless PQ is significantly worse, and that's never been suggested by any review of the FiOS service I have ever seen.

/steve


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I've had FIOS for about 22 months now and have experienced only a few issues. I've had intermittent internet problems due to the use of a bittorrent client. I have since learned that this causes problems with their router due to an undersized NAT table which overflows quite easily, resulting in loss of connectivity for several minutes. There are workarounds posted on the net for this issue.

The one major PITA I experienced was trying to get my long distance service switched over to Verizon from AT&T. The problem came from both sides and it took my about five months to get something straightened out that should have been a simple task.

I can't say I've had any problems with my TV service, but then I don't have any of their STB's connected to the TV I watch. I do have one HD STB and two standard STB's elsewhere in the house but I rarely use them myself. The HD box got hung up once or twice but a brief shutdown followed by a reboot fixed it. I dismissed their DVR right off the bat after researching it and finding out the shortcomings. I bought a couple of S3 Tivos and I was a happy camper again.

I've had Verizon wireless for many years and I'm satisified with the service. I've also had AT&T and Cellular One (now Cingular) and so far I like Verizon the best. The only reason I mention the other services is because I get all of them on a single bill (i.e., phone, internet, TV, and wireless).


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

captain_video said:


> I can't say I've had any problems with my TV service, but then I don't have any of their STB's connected to the TV I watch. I do have one HD STB and two standard STB's elsewhere in the house but I rarely use them myself. The HD box got hung up once or twice but a brief shutdown followed by a reboot fixed it. I dismissed their DVR right off the bat after researching it and finding out the shortcomings. I bought a couple of S3 Tivos and I was a happy camper again.


I guess you signed-up before they rolled-out the new UI last year. I thought the old interface left much to be desired as well. The 20 hours HD is still a huge issue tho.

How does the monthly TiVo S3 fee compare to the $16/month Verizon gets for the DVR's? Also, can I ask what Verizon charges you for the cablecard, and do you need two cards per S3 if you want to use dual tuners? TIA. /steve


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## thomas_d92 (Nov 29, 2004)

How can Fios be the best delivery system of tv in the country when area wise it only covers about 10 percent of the country. I am in Verizon territory here in Ca. but no fios in my future for a long time. Fios is only available in large metro areas . How about bringing it ti the rural areas of the country.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They're called examples, which is what was asked for....I can share hundreds more of them if you'd like, but again, for those who chose *not* to actually read original statement (and/or understand it)....
> 
> I wished the person well and stated that *every* service has issues, and FIOS is not *anywhere near *immune from problems either.
> 
> ...


Wait a sec - who the hell claimed that it was a perfect system? I haven't read that on here or on any other forum. Yeah it has its flaws, and I read your posting just fine. The slant of your posts was that FiOS, as a system, has SYSTEMIC problems - you even said you wanted to see how it would hold up longer term as the product matures. Yet the examples you gave show nothing of the sort. They're all (aside from billing) incidental problems that happen WITH EVERY PROVIDER. You made it sound like there was something specific with FiOS that was problemattic, but you gave examples that plague every provider.

Have I had issues with FiOS? Yes. Did I have issues with DirecTV? Yes! Were either of those sets of issues show-stoppers? No. Is FiOS lacking in some areas? Yes - I thought the OP did an excellent job of comparing FiOS to DirecTV. You say that the system has flaws and then put a link to a forum by some random guy who had an issue with his router?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Steve said:


> More disparaging comments with no specific examples. Not helpful at all to anyone who comes to this thread for information about the topic.


I don't know what your problem is...but firsthand viewing of an HD delivery system that does not live up to its hype is not disparaging, its eye-ball testimonial experience. You keep insisting on examples...and I posted a number of them, and then you blow them off as irrelevant. Sorry....no cake for you....as you'd eat that too.    


thomas_d92 said:


> How can Fios be the best delivery system of tv in the country when area wise it only covers about 10 percent of the country.


Indeed a great question without a great answer...


jpl said:


> The slant of your posts was that FiOS, as a system, has SYSTEMIC problems - you even said you wanted to see how it would hold up longer term as the product matures.


No...what I saw firsthand is that it still has some systemic problems...pixellation and others...and also posted other accounts of those who also saw this and other things....I stated that we'll see how this all works out, as this is a newer offering compared to others.

You yourself indicated you had issues with FIOS, so that's nothing new. That's not to say its any different to other offerings....but its also not the holy grail that a number of posters make it out to be with comments like "hands down better" and the like. It plainly is NOT.

I believe its far too early to tell if FIOS will even make it as a national service, and also if it will provide the level of service expected by most at a competitive price. It may, but its too soon to tell for certain on both counts. They also, like would be expected for a newer technology, need to iron out the kinks.

It's like if any flaw is identified, the FIOS fanboys come unglued about it like we insulted their mothers or something...get a grip. 

As for the gentleman who indicated he made a switch....best wishes to him. Hope it works out to his satisfaction.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I don't know what your problem is...but firsthand viewing of an HD delivery system that does not live up to its hype is not disparaging, its eye-ball testimonial experience. You keep insisting on examples...and I posted a number of them, and then you blow them off as irrelevant. Sorry....no cake for you....as you'd eat that too.
> 
> Indeed a great question without a great answer...
> 
> ...


I don't have an issue with people criticizing the system. It's just a TV system. I have no emotional attachment to it. But when I see someone make statements like you made, I think they should be backed up with more than just incidental examples.

As for your personal viewing of it... again, that's totally subjective. You saw it for a very brief period of time, and for a small number of channels, and you didn't compare it to anything (side by side). The artifacts you saw could have been caused by any number of things which have nothing whatsoever to do with FiOS... or it could have been due to a minor issue that you saw that day.

When I see terms like 'hands down' in describing it as being better, it's almost always for a specific item - e.g. I used it when I described the SD PQ when compared to DirecTV. I ran them side by side for several days on the same stinking TV, and in every case the SD on FiOS was not only better, but obviously so. In that case FiOS was better, hands down.

I also keep reading about how it's not a national system. You're right - it doesn't have the footprint of DirecTV, but they've been growing faster (in total numbers) than any other provider out there. They had a net gain of nearly a quarter million subscribers in the 3rd quarter. It's hard to make the case that they're a marginal player anymore.

Again, I have no personal stake in this. I'm not a Verizon employee, and I was a very happy DirecTV subscriber for years. And if they weren't such sticklers about their pricing for their HD DVR, I would still be a DirecTV subscriber.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ... You keep insisting on examples...and I posted a number of them...


I'll invite others to be the judge if you have, because I obviously have comprehension issues. /steve


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

thomas_d92 said:


> How can Fios be the best delivery system of tv in the country when area wise it only covers about 10 percent of the country.


I fail to see what being the best system technologically has to do with the area the system covers.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> I don't have an issue with people criticizing the system. It's just a TV system. I have no emotional attachment to it. But when I see someone make statements like you made, I think they should be backed up with more than just incidental examples.


I offered to submit hundreds more...the 5 threads I cited actually represent over 50 points of information - not incidental....but how much of the same kinds of testimony does it take to make the basic point that FIOS has issues....had I taken that approach, I then would have been criticized for overkill. No winning that battle...so I chose to cut off the documentation at that point as "made" and not beat a dead horse. If someone really needs the testimony of 100+ people to testify to various "issues" before they can get past the first step of the 12 step program (denial), than I suggest they do their own research....just Google FIOS problems, FIOS issues, or FIOS limitations...and you'll find plenty of threads on the topic. My purpose has not been to drill home that topic until the cows come home. It was to make the point that there are some "issues" on FIOS, and contrary to the poster who made the "hands down" superiority claim based on opinion alone, there is evidence to the contrary. It should not require the Spanish Inquisition to accept that as a possiblity.



> As for your personal viewing of it... again, that's totally subjective. You saw it for a very brief period of time, and for a small number of channels, and you didn't compare it to anything (side by side). The artifacts you saw could have been caused by any number of things which have nothing whatsoever to do with FiOS... or it could have been due to a minor issue that you saw that day.


*You are absolutely right *that my personal direct viewing - which by the way, consisted of timeframes over 2 different weekends with a total of 6 days, averaging perhaps 6-7 hours per day (a total of about 36-40 hours or so) is subjective. In viewing most (but not all) of their HD channels, I certainly saw enough to formulate a subjective opinion, *no less or no more *in value to those who think its the cats meow. 

You are also correct (*thank you*) and also very objective in your views as a customer, to validate its non-national availability as a limitation at this time. That's not a criticism, its an observation. Of course that will change over time, and they may very well overcome many of the issues that others have identified.

I appreciate your feedback, comments, and observations. As a customer, I also respect the fact that you can remain objective and post thoughtful information for all of us to learn from.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I'm not looking for VOLUME of critique. I'm looking for validity. Look at the postings you included. One guy complained that his VOD wasn't working - likely a router problem. That's equipment failure - not something specific to FiOS. Next up a guy who was having HDMI handshake issues. Again something NOT specific to Verizon. Then you had someone who complained that they didn't have enough HD - that's now a totally moot point (over 100 HD channels plus nearly 1000 HD VOD titles puts that one to bed). And finally you had a guy gripe about two things primarily - one was billing, which I agreed sucks. The second is that he complained that Verizon had the temerity to add channels and not grandfather him into those channels - again, something that EVERY provider, including DirecTV, has done.

Like I said, I don't think their service is perfect. I don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread - it's TV service. It fits the bill for me. I like it alot, but again, it's TV srevice. They're not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but to make the point that FiOS isn't ready for prime time, you have to actually give examples of issues that are specific to Verizon. Or at least problems that are much more prevelent with Verizon than with other providers. What you gave were examples of problems that ALL providers have. So, if Verizon isn't ready for prime time, then neither is Comcast, or DirecTV, or Dish, or... take your pick. They ALL have those problems.

It's not a question of whether or not Verizon has issues. Of course they have issues. I never claimed otherwise. All providers have issues. But the question is - is it any worse with Verizon than with other providers? From my perspective, the answer is 'no'. In terms of those issues, they're on par with all the other providers out there. They're growing at an astronomical rate, which can lead to growing pains (some of those I've seen too), but they seem to be handling that growth better than most companies are able to.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

jpl said:


> It's not a question of whether or not Verizon has issues. Of course they have issues. I never claimed otherwise.
> 
> All providers have issues. But the question is - is it any worse with Verizon than with other providers? From my perspective, the answer is 'no'. In terms of those issues, they're on par with all the other providers out there. They're growing at an astronomical rate, which can lead to growing pains (some of those I've seen too), but they seem to be handling that growth better than most companies are able to.


I would agree with you, and never disputed that they are any less than (other than the territories they cover) than any other provider. My contention was that they also were not any better. A few *other* posters chimed in with their rhetorical "hands down" superior and other such comments. That is what was up for dispute.

You and I seem to be on the same page. Enjoy your FIOS please.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I would agree with you, and never disputed that they are any less than (other than the territories they cover) than any other provider. My contention was that they also were not any better. A few *other* posters chimed in with their rhetorical "hands down" superior and other such comments. That is what was up for dispute.
> 
> You and I seem to be on the same page. Enjoy your FIOS please.


Sounds like we can end this (hopefully) on a note of agreement. If anyone expects perfection from any of these providers, then they're going to be sorely disappointed. I expect issues to crop up from time to time. Unfortunately I know people like that - they get worked up when something small goes wrong.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I fail to see what being the best system technologically has to do with the area the system covers.


From a technological standpoint, fiber to the premises offers an abundance of relatively cheap and extremely reliable 2-way bandwidth between the customer and the provider, so Verizon has put the infrastructure in place to offer some "Jetsons-like" features in the near future.

E.g., what if the next FiOS STB came with an HD video camera attached to it? And you could videoconference with your other FiOS TV friends or relatives? You could watch them on your 50" or larger display in full 720p or better, and hear them in PCM digital. Think grandparents who don't live near their grandkids might enjoy using something like that? /steve


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

Steve said:


> I guess you signed-up before they rolled-out the new UI last year. I thought the old interface left much to be desired as well. The 20 hours HD is still a huge issue tho.
> 
> How does the monthly TiVo S3 fee compare to the $16/month Verizon gets for the DVR's? Also, can I ask what Verizon charges you for the cablecard, and do you need two cards per S3 if you want to use dual tuners? TIA. /steve


I can't comment on the UI update because I rarely interface with a Verizon STB except on extremely rare occasions. I do seem to recall that I didn't particularly care for the newer UI but didn't really give it much thought. Their DVR quickly fell out of contention for my use when I saw how limited it was, not to mention all of the negative press it gets from seasoned DVR owners/users.

With a 3-year prepaid plan for the 1st S3 Tivo plus two cablecards, I'm currently paying about $14.25 per month. The 2nd S3 costs me slightly less with a 3-year commitment and MSD. The Verizon DVR currently costs $15.99 per month, IIRC.

I'm grandfathered into the original $2.99 monthly fee for my cablecards and yes, I do use two of them per Tivo for the dual tuners. The M-cards were not available when I signed up with FIOS. I don't know if they are currently available but with the cost of the truck roll vs. the couple of bucks I'd save each month it would take me several years to recoup the expense of making the change so it's very unlikely I'd make the switch.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve said:


> From a technological standpoint, fiber to the premises offers an abundance of relatively cheap and extremely reliable 2-way bandwidth between the customer and the provider, so Verizon has put the infrastructure in place to offer some "Jetsons-like" features in the near future.
> 
> E.g., what if the next FiOS STB came with an HD video camera attached to it? And you could videoconference with your other FiOS TV friends or relatives? You could watch them on your 50" or larger display in full 720p or better, and hear them in PCM digital. Think grandparents who don't live near their grandkids might enjoy using something like that? /steve


I do agree with that. I think their architecture will give them a hell of an advantage in the future. And it's not just the fiber - when you add in a high-speed wireless connection, they're going to have an architecture that will be hard to beat. They're already starting to roll out some of those features - things like remote (and wireless) DVR booking, e.g. I know DirecTV has something like that too (at least the remote part), but I think it's just a matter of time until you're able to have remote (and wireless) viewing as well. Watch stuff recorded on your DVR from any computer or from your cell phone.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

captain_video said:


> Their DVR quickly fell out of contention for my use when I saw how limited it was, not to mention all of the negative press it gets from seasoned DVR owners/users.


I think the negative press was in regards to the old UI. The new UI is pretty slick, IMO. Search term entry is very cool, e.g. That said, there's no getting around the 20 hour HD limitation. That's a show-stopper, IMO.

Thanks for the pricing details. So it sounds like HD TiVo vs. FiOS HD DVR is a wash monthly. You do have to factor in the initial outlay for the TiVo boxes, however. /steve


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## Albie (Jan 26, 2007)

jpl said:


> I do agree with that. I think their architecture will give them a hell of an advantage in the future. And it's not just the fiber - when you add in a high-speed wireless connection, they're going to have an architecture that will be hard to beat. They're already starting to roll out some of those features - things like remote (and wireless) DVR booking, e.g. I know DirecTV has something like that too (at least the remote part), but I think it's just a matter of time until you're able to have remote (and wireless) viewing as well. Watch stuff recorded on your DVR from any computer or from your cell phone.


Is fiber to the home using a hybrid QAM/IP based architecture system any more advanced than than using fiber to the node then copper to the home using a pure IP based system? I think that will be the real battle for the future. Can AT&T find a way to dramatically increase bandwidth using copper? Will the QAM portion of Verizon's system become a detriment to efficient delivery to the point they have to do a massive plant/STB upgrade to move their system to a pure IP or better system.
And even more will each company's wireless divisions remain the cash cows they are now to continue funding these very expensive system build outs until they become self sufficient from a cash flow standpoint?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Albie said:


> Is fiber to the home using a hybrid QAM/IP based architecture system any more advanced than than using fiber to the node then copper to the home using a pure IP based system? I think that will be the real battle for the future. Can AT&T find a way to dramatically increase bandwidth using copper? Will the QAM portion of Verizon's system become a detriment to efficient delivery to the point they have to do a massive plant/STB upgrade to move their system to a pure IP or better system.
> And even more will each company's wireless divisions remain the cash cows they are now to continue funding these very expensive system build outs until they become self sufficient from a cash flow standpoint?


I believe FTTH is currently about 2.5 gbps. To your point about fiber to copper, as little as CAT 5E copper can deliver 10 gbps over 100 meters (and much further for CAT 6 and CAT 7), so there would be no loss, even if the nearest fiber was 2-3 times further away.

I don't think it makes any difference from a transport standpoint if the delivery system is currently a mix of QAM and IP. Packets are packets. If they wanted to deploy pure IP hardware, the infrastructure in place is the same.

When I got wired for FiOS internet about 3 years ago, the installer told me it cost Verizon about $3k per house on my street to provide service, so they are still losing money on me at $40/month. Not sure what those numbers are like today. They seem to be in the process of covering every square inch of the NY metropolitan area at this time and lower Westchester county, where I live. /steve


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> Watch stuff recorded on your DVR from any computer or from your cell phone.


To that point, there are reports today of Blackberry-based Sling player trials. As you know, Sling is now owned by Dish. /steve


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

For the record, yeah running the QAM/IP architecture does give them more room to play with. Since things like guide data and VOD do come in via the IP portion of their feed, for now all the QAM space can be used for linear tv feeds. They are migrating to all IP, however. Not sure when. And I think they're latest QAM expansion will put that on hold for some time. There's no need to make that jump for at least the next 3 - 4 years. They currently have plenty of room for channel expansion.

As for the FTTN architecture of someone like AT&T, I think they're going to have real bandwidth crunch issues going forward. That's because they run twisted pair from the node to your house - basically it's TV over DSL. Which is why they have that obnoxious limit of how many channels you can watch in your house at one time. While they're finding ways to increase the bandwidth on that twisted pair, at some point they're going to hit a real ceiling. Fiber doesn't give you that limitation. Upgrade the equipment at the CO, and the ONT (optical network terminal) on your house, and you can keep increasing transmission speeds. Their migration from BPON to GPON alone will quadruple speeds, which is why Verizon is starting to talk about rolling out 100 Mbps residential internet service in select markets starting next year - they've been busy upgrading to GPON in many of their markets.

In terms of installation costs, that $3k/month sounds alot higher than what I'd heard elsewhere. I understand that it used to be around $1200/customer on average (longer fiber runs will naturally be more expensive), but improvements in fiber production have driven that cost way down. I believe it's about half that number today.... maybe less. But then again, I have no hard information to back that up - just info that I've read on line in some fios forums. I know that they haven't yet turned a profit on FiOS, but I believe they're getting close to doing that.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

jpl said:


> In terms of installation costs, that $3k/month sounds alot higher than what I'd heard elsewhere.


That number was given to me by the FiOS installer back in '06, when my house was wired. IIRC, he said that's what they told him during his FiOS classes. I'm sure those costs have dropped dramatically since.

Those numbers may also vary by township, based on what kind of deal Verizon has cut locally. /steve


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## Artwood (May 30, 2006)

So let me get this straight: FIOS doesn't add additional compression to SD channels or HD channels?

DirecTV compresses SD channels out the wazoo making them unwatchable so they can use MPEG-4 and magically deliver fantastic additionally compressed HD channels?

And since they can deliver so many more channels of variously compressed SD and HD than FIOS can deliver non additionally compressed SD channels and HD channels that means we should shout hallelujah and be happy with a trillion DirecTV channels of less resolution than that sent by the sources?

I'm sure glad I bought an HD set--saw what the channels looked like on DISH before they added additional compression like DirecTV does--

Because now I can be happy with less resolution and alot more channels because I'm not confronted with choosing FIOS or not choosing FIOS because it isn't available where I live!

Is something wrong with this picture?!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Artwood said:


> DirecTV compresses SD channels out the wazoo making them unwatchable so they can use MPEG-4 and magically deliver fantastic additionally compressed HD channels?


Actually, if DirecTV someday delivers SD channels in MPEG-4, the quality might improve, because they can deliver the same channels with less compression without using add'l bandwidth. And if you check out my post #119 earlier in this thread, you'll see that DirecTV's SD PQ isn't bad at all. Perhaps it's recently improved and folks may not have realized it, but having come from analog cable years ago, I never had a problem with it.

And to my eyes (20/20 vision), MPEG-4 HD offers virtually identical PQ to the OTA MPEG-2 HD I get from the Empire State Building in NY (what I believe to be the source of the DirecTV NY/East Coast feeds***), when viewed on my 50" plasma from about 10-12 feet away. The only difference I see is the smoothness of the trickplay, but that's the nature of MPEG-4 vs. MPEG-2. /steve

***_In this January '07 article, DirecTV's CTO states that they are, in some cases, MPEG-4 encoding the source feeds, rather than re-encoding the MPEG-2 feeds. I don't know if that's the case in my market._


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm a big DirecTV fan but to my eyes, analog cable looks wonderful when there is a good, strong signal and no interference is present.

Of course, those two requirements were never met on the cable I once had.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Steve said:


> Actually, if DirecTV someday delivers SD channels in MPEG-4, the quality might improve, because they can deliver the same channels with less compression without using add'l bandwidth.


Any improvements would be marginal, since MPEG-4's efficiency breaks down at the low bitrates of DirecTV's SD. Which is probably why DirecTV won't even bother with it.


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## Jhon69 (Mar 28, 2006)

paulman182 said:


> I'm a big DirecTV fan but to my eyes, analog cable looks wonderful when there is a good, strong signal and no interference is present.
> 
> Of course, those two requirements were never met on the cable I once had.


Well I don't know if it's DirecTV or just the provider,but it seems when the channels are going HD we are receiving a downrezzed HD signal on my R22-100.It makes an SD picture that is far superior to regular SD.


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