# The 921 is a Piece of Junk and Should Be Recalled????



## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

I have just spent 3 hours recovering from another(existing) software problem........I believe it is time to sue E* for a selling a known defective product. I was recording the Rose bowl and watching it about 20mins behind(elimanate commercials) when it locked up... It was due to start a new timer after the Rose Bowl on same channel... The RB ran late.. I think when the new timer tried to fire... it somehow locked and dropped the signal. I tried to stop the recording and it would not and that channel was now black(no signal),,, I hard rebooted 4 times, soft reboot at least 6... the record light was off but it still showed recording on the guide... and now tuner 2 where i think it was recording went south... tried to run switch check and lost all signal... reboot... now only seeing 110, both 119 and 61.5 gone.. run switch check and it says tuner 2 is recording.. asks to stop but will not.... after 3 hours of trying everything .... "something worked, i got a good switch check, and download of about 2 hrs of guide...... the software is the WORST software I have every seen on a product for sale. Almost ALL freeware software is better than this... 211 has made things as bad or worse... some problems are fixed, but more things are broken..... Mark, I know you are trying but I believe this is a lost cause... either the software team is terrible or mismanaged... AND E* does not care.


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## Jeffrey (Dec 30, 2004)

The 921 is inexcusably buggy, as is the so called support when you call to complain about the unbearable signal. After 60 hours of effort and after talking to dozens, yes, dozens of Dish folks, they finally figured out the DP44 was bad (I told em that the 1st time they came out) causing bluriness and washed out skin tones. I have to wait yet another week (it has been 6 so far) because the person they sent doesn't have another DP44. The jittery video is unbearable to watch and happens on SD, HD, any video resolution, and starts minutes or a few hours after a 5 minute reboot. Oh yeah, I ordered the 34" TV and they charged my credit card on 11/26. I had several scheduled installs and they told me after I already gave up a day off each time to be here for them that they didn't have a single 34" to deliver. When they couldn't tell (during a 3 hour, 45 minute call) me when or if they would ever be able to deliver the TV, I finally gave up - six weeks.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

If the 921 were a decent box, I'd be staying with Dish. As it is... one month until I'm on D*.


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

Jeffrey: While I agree with almost all of your bash, it is simply NOT possible for a bad switch (which is either a DP*3*4 or a DP*P*44) to cause "bluriness and washed out skin tones". Sorry, no way, no how, can't happen, inconsistent with physical reality.

OTOH, my 921's SD output is exactly how you describe it and always has been.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

Another day.... same problem ...does not record(record light off) while guide show red dot for record... this time it is CDBHD on 61.5..... now no signal on 61.5 and 110 1nd 119 seem to be going south also..... I NEVER had these problems BEFORE L211..... I am trying hard reboot, switch check and we will see.. later


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

You would think all of your threats and complaints would be a good to motivator for them to fix the stuff like the OTA guide and NBR, timer bugs, OTA bugs, etc..


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## passing_ships (Aug 1, 2004)

tweaver999 said:


> Another day.... same problem ...does not record(record light off) while guide show red dot for record... this time it is CDBHD on 61.5..... now no signal on 61.5 and 110 1nd 119 seem to be going south also..... I NEVER had these problems BEFORE L211..... I am trying hard reboot, switch check and we will see.. later


 I assume you have already run the disk diagnostics?


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

very funny(disk diag).... also my 811 works fine off the same set of antenns,,, but i do think i have found a possible solution... it appears the more I ***** here about the 921 the worse it gets...however, I call E* support and after talking with the front line... they have to transfer me to advanced tech.. ask me to hold for 5 mins......... will holding( i have 921 setting on signal meter in menu) all of a sudden...... all signals from 61.5,110 and 119 start working.... recordings work.... all fixed???????????????? interesting.........I hung up.... GREAT JOB SUPPORT..... :nono: :lol:


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

tweaver999 said:


> very funny(disk diag)


Why funny?


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## tm22721 (Nov 8, 2002)

Yeah who exactly is the pirate anymore...Dish or the signal thieves ?


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## passing_ships (Aug 1, 2004)

tm22721 said:


> Yeah who exactly is the pirate anymore...Dish or the signal thieves ?


 You lost me. Please elaborate.


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## passing_ships (Aug 1, 2004)

jsanders said:


> Why funny?


 I, too, am curious as to why that was funny.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

Take a look at thread on disk diag....
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=36731

if the type of problems that most people are now seeing withe L211 are caused by disk problems it would be the first time in many years of experience i have seen this..............

no i have not run the diag..... tell me what it does and what it will fix.. then i will run it... these are s/w problems with L211...it appears to be memory leaks that cause CPU to loop and error conditions that are not handle correctly or at all.... IMO


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

You just have to do a google search to find out what that does....

http://www.santools.com/smart/SMARTMONUX-Manual.pdf


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

tweaver999 said:


> it appears to be memory leaks that cause CPU to loop and error conditions that are not handle correctly or at all.... IMO


Could you elaborate a little bit more please?

How can a memory leak cause the "CPU to loop"? What area do you think is leaking memory? What error conditions do you think are not being handled properly? If you have some theories, we would love to hear about them.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

do you have the source code?????


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

by the way.. i ran the diags..... HD shows now problems......


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

tweaver999 said:


> do you have the source code?????


I don't need the source code to be able to ask you why you think there are "memory leaks that cause CPU to loop" or why you think there are "error conditions that are not handle correctly or at all".

However, for you to make such baseless claims ideally does require examining some code, or at the very least some observations to develop a theory. You have given neither.

Maybe I should ask you that question, "Do you have the source code?" Do you have any observations with which you can produce a logical theory as to why you think "memory leaks that cause CPU to loop", or why you think there are "error conditions that are not handle correctly or at all".

If you have some ideas about what you think is happening, and why, we would all like to know.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

jsanders said:


> I don't need the source code to be able to ask you why you think there are "memory leaks that cause CPU to loop" or why you think there are "error conditions that are not handle correctly or at all".
> 
> However, for you to make such baseless claims ideally does require examining some code, or at the very least some observations to develop a theory. You have given neither.
> 
> ...


Well you have some excellent points that I tend to usually throw out when people make such statements. Also when people claim that it should take a month to do NBR and a month to port NBR or statments that adding this or that feature should be trivial. Without source code and a intimate knowledge of the architecture it would be hard to determine where the reliability issues are coming. It could be flaky hardware. Wide variations in manufacturing.

There is one piece of evidence that to me indicates the 921 is leaking memory. If it is true that the 921 reboots itself every night this is usually and indication of a memory leak with a work around. In the early days this was common procedure with NT. There could be other reasons why the 921 reboots itself nightly but that is one possibility.

As for memory leaks causing the CPU to loop? Not sure what that means. CPU loops to me usually occur when a while, for, etc... loop does not properly exit. Or possible some nested code then eventually blows the stack. I don't see any occurance of what would look like a blown stack. Over time I have seen times where the 921 freezes for a bit. This can be caused by process or thread locking on a resource. But, other things could also cause this behavior.

Point is without knowledge of the code base, statements regarding software issues within the 921 are opinions at best. They may or may not be true. Most likely not including mine above.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Well you have some excellent points that I tend to usually throw out when people make such statements. Also when people claim that it should take a month to do NBR and a month to port NBR or statments that adding this or that feature should be trivial. Without source code and a intimate knowledge of the architecture it would be hard to determine where the reliability issues are coming. It could be flaky hardware. Wide variations in manufacturing.


Ha ha ha ha ha. Funny WeeJavaDude. :lol: 
What I wanted here was for tweaver999 to be specific, not just talking out of his neck. The statements I made about NBR taking a month was a far different scenario. I told you a lot about the environment in that case. I explained why it would largely be environment independent as well. I thought calling yourself WeeJavaDude was ironic, since any JavaDude should be familiar with platform independence. I talked about the limitations of the UI in the 921, and how I would limit that to just one added radio button to keep things simple. I wrote a subroutine that did the basic functionality with linked lists, and I explained places that it could be called from. I was very specific about how I could make an estimate of a month to get the basic functionality working. I have also told the Eldon people to call me (on more than one occasion) if they want some help. I asked you specific questions about what more you wanted as too. I don't recall any response btw. Regardless, I was specific enough that a programmer could look at what I did and agree or disagree and explain why they agreed or disagreed with an equal amount of detail. That is far different than making claims without any basis.



WeeJavaDude said:


> There is one piece of evidence that to me indicates the 921 is leaking memory. If it is true that the 921 reboots itself every night this is usually and indication of a memory leak with a work around. In the early days this was common procedure with NT. There could be other reasons why the 921 reboots itself nightly but that is one possibility.
> 
> As for memory leaks causing the CPU to loop? Not sure what that means. CPU loops to me usually occur when a while, for, etc... loop does not properly exit. Or possible some nested code then eventually blows the stack. I don't see any occurance of what would look like a blown stack. Over time I have seen times where the 921 freezes for a bit. This can be caused by process or thread locking on a resource. But, other things could also cause this behavior.


That is great, if enough people throw ideas out, we might be able to reach a conclusion. Yes, reboots could indicate a memory leak or something. The point is that you have at given some theory and supporting details about a cause and effect relationship. Variables are put on the stack with some processors when a function is called (an exception is the powerpc, c compilers put the first variable in r3). Blowing out the stack could change a counter variable causing an endless loop. Especially if they did it like this:

unsigned long count = 0;
for( ; count != kMaxCnt; count++)

vs.

for( ; count < kMaxCnt; count++)

I also agree with you that these types of things are unlikely to happen.

If the 921 becomes unresponsive, there are a lot of things that can happen. 
Maybe an interrupt got masked improperly causing the remote control to become unresponsive. Maybe, as you said, a semaphore or something else is blocking a task from using a resource causing a large interrupt latency.

We are going to be wrong most of the time, but if we make some claims and we back them with observations, then we can toss it around and either discount the idea or reinforce it. It can't be easily done unless we are as specific as possible.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

jsanders said:


> Ha ha ha ha ha. Funny WeeJavaDude. :lol:
> What I wanted here was for tweaver999 to be specific, not just talking out of his
> neck.


I fully agree with you about providing some basis for statements made. I was not saying that you did not provide details. You did. However, without intimate knowledge of how the 921 operates, I don't have the insight to argue one way or another if your specific have merit. I personally think two many assumptions have to be made and regarding making an NBR time estimate. That is my opinion.



jsanders said:


> The statements I made about NBR taking a month was a far different scenario. I told you a lot about the environment in that case. I explained why it would largely be environment independent as well. I thought calling yourself WeeJavaDude was ironic, since any JavaDude should be familiar with platform independence. I talked about the limitations of the UI in the 921, and how I would limit that to just one added radio button to keep things simple. I wrote a subroutine that did the basic functionality with linked lists, and I explained places that it could be called from. I was very specific about how I could make an estimate of a month to get the basic functionality working. I have also told the Eldon people to call me (on more than one occasion) if they want some help. I asked you specific questions about what more you wanted as too. I don't recall any response btw. Regardless, I was specific enough that a programmer could look at what I did and agree or disagree and explain why they agreed or disagreed with an equal amount of detail. That is far different than making claims without any basis.


Yes you did tell me about the enivronment in general if I recall, but since these details are not public one does not know what tools, libraries, and os support is included in 921 build. For the record, I am very well aware of platform independece. Not sure if I remember the one radio button point, but that is cool. Yes you mentioned places that it could be called from, but it is my opinion that assumptions are made that these places exist.

As to being specific enough, I think the saying "the devil is in the details" applies here. Yes you did provide some arguments and details, but I still stand on my argument that unless one knows true specifics as to the nature of the code and environment a good estimate cannot be made. I have seen poor estimates get made all the time because of environment, tools, etc assumpitions. This is a shoe horn situation and none of us know how modular the code base is.

I did take a look at your arguments, but felt it would lead to a slippery slope and choose not to go down it. I didn't spend a lot of time analysing your subroutine because personally I think there is a lot more in NBR than just a basic subroutine. That is my opinion and I am sure it differs from yours.



jsanders said:


> That is great, if enough people throw ideas out, we might be able to reach a conclusion. Yes, reboots could indicate a memory leak or something. The point is that you have at given some theory and supporting details about a cause and effect relationship. Variables are put on the stack with some processors when a function is called (an exception is the powerpc, c compilers put the first variable in
> .<< Removed to conserve space >>


Nothing wrong with that.. Opinions are always a good thing.


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## Sundance (Mar 6, 2004)

Those damn memory leaks, I'm sick of cleaning up after my 921 every morning 

I second all the above, I just do not understand how they can 1) sell a POS like this and get away with and 2) sit there on the Chats and talk about what a great machine it is. It is truly a sad state of affairs.


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## tweaver999 (Jul 9, 2004)

just an update.. finally got thru to a very knowledgable guy in the VA support group... we checked everything.. ground loops on OTA and phone line etc..... but also, he advised I put a small UPS on the 921,,, i had a surge protector... but since the UPS... a lot of the signal loss problems appear to have gotten better L211 still has all the same problems.. but now at least I can live with the nightly reboot to recover memory or :whatever"... so anyway a slight drop in power to the 921 seems to cause havoc...only been 3 days now... but I was rebooting 6-10 times every night.....


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## Ronald K (Jan 11, 2004)

211 is the worst yet. Now if I record a current show, I can not stop the recording unless I pull the card.


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## The Guv (Dec 14, 2004)

Ronald K said:


> 211 is the worst yet. Now if I record a current show, I can not stop the recording unless I pull the card.


I've had my 921 since early December and this is the only technical problem I had.

I manually recorded one show and could not get the recording to stop. Since it was late and I was headed to bed, I let the darn thing record overnight (it was a non-HD program) before I called up *E support.

They said that this had never happened before (yeah right) and they directed me to hold the power button for 10-15 seconds for the machine to reboot.

While that solved the immediate problem, I tried again to use the record button on the remote to record the current program and the problem happened again (could not stop recording without booting the system).

This should not be happening.

No problems at all when I use the program guide or manual timer ahead of time to record programs though.


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## HailScroob (Aug 3, 2004)

Ronald K said:


> 211 is the worst yet.


Yes!

Yes. Yes. Yes.


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