# Would you drop D* for FiOS? Why / why not?



## NoMax (Aug 25, 2006)

They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.

I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.

NM


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


I would get their internet service in a second. If you have Verizon for phone going FIOS wouldn't be a problem. As for TV if they are continuing to offer the special deals I would move to them. I don't care about the NFL. FIOS' channel offerings appear to be every bit as good as those of DirecTV to me.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Of course, do what's good for you. If you're having alignment problems, that may be the thing that's most important. 

I've seen FIOSTV and I'm neither impressed nor unimpressed. Their DVR is very slick but the picture quality is not any different from DIRECTV. I know that in the past there were some limitations to how many DVRs you could have in one home, if that makes a difference to you.

I recently upgraded my phone and internet to FIOS and I'll tell you, it's fast. Very fast. Not too expensive either.


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## Mertzen (Dec 8, 2006)

Ken S said:


> I would get their internet service in a second.


+1.

I'm not sure if I'd go for their TV though. I like D* and am used to their system, and seeing what's in the works for the nearby future I doubt I'd jump ship. Not that it matter since I'm moving to where Fios is decades out.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


Have you been able to figure out what is causing your dish to go out of alignment? My AT-9 with monopoles has been in service for almost 3 years now and near as I can tell based on signal levels, hasnt moved at all.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Based on advertised offers in the area I wouldn't hesitate to switch to FIOS their packaged plans beat D* so badly that there is no competetion. Now once promos are off then I could always go back to Directv as a returning customer. But alas Verizon has barely gotten us to the touch tone state of the art. DSL isn't offered never mind FIOS.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

I recently switched my Internet & phone service to FiOS. Compared with the DSL that I used to have, I love the Internet service.

I have no desire to switch my TV service to them. I currently have 3 HD DVR's. When I last checked, the pricing structure at FiOS for DVR's is more conistent with the pricing structure of Cable TV companies, where you pay more for each DVR every month. Since I got two DVR's for free and already paid the upfront fee for the third, it doesn't make any sense for me to give those DVR's back and start paying a monthly DVR fee for FiOS ones.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

If I lived in a Verizon area I would certainly consider it. But since I don't....


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

I did make the jump. I never had HD service with DirecTV, so I really can't speak to the difference in PQ on that end. On the SD side, there is a difference - which is most evident on channels that DirecTV overcompresses. But there are some channels which just suck at the source (e.g. Chiller looks just as crappy on FiOS as it did on DirecTV). From what I understand, the newer mpeg4 HD channels on DirecTV are just about on par with FiOS HD in terms of PQ - if not totally on par.

Whether or not to switch should really come down to what's important to you. If you want a more detailed list of the pros/cons of each, from my perspective, I'd be happy to provide it.

Now in terms of internet, I'll echo what others have said. Even if you don't go for their TV service, it's definitely worth going for their internet service. It's excellent. You get great speeds, with no slow periods, no throttling, and no download caps. And FiOS phone service works just fine with DirecTV (hooking up your phone line to your receiver).

Edit - and to counter one point made - no, there's no limit to the number of DVRs. Well, there's an overall limit on how many boxes you can have - but that's due to other hardware considerations. For example, under my current configuration, I can have 7 IP-addressable boxes (FiOS uses a QAM/IP hybrid architecture), and 3 non-IP addressable boxes (without the IP-addressability I can get my linear channel feeds, but don't get things like VOD or guide data on those TVs). With those 7 boxes, I can have 7 DVRs if I want. They're enhancing the hardware to expand that. Really the limitation comes from your router - the one they give you - which feeds the IP-addressable boxes with things like VOD and guide data. Newer versions of the router, from what I understand, can handle 15 boxes, meaning you can have 15 DVRs hooked up if you want.


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## jbeskow (Oct 25, 2008)

NoMax said:


> I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> NM


Why are you having problems with the dish getting out of alignment? I have had DirecTV for over 7 years in South Dakota with 80+ mile/hr winds plus hail and have never had it go out of alignment and it is also a roof mounted dish. If you have one of the big HD dishes be sure to use the 2 additional rods to mount it.

As to the FIOS it is not offered in my area yet so I haven't looked it at all.


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## dhhaines (Nov 18, 2005)

I did take a look at FIOS TV service, but to hook me up with what I have now with DirecTV would cost me more in the long run. I did get their 20/10 internet service and phone for $5 a month less then what I was paying for phone and internet before. Had to do a 1 year commitment, but since I've had verizon at this address for over 13 years, no big deal. You'll love the internet service, never had an outage in over a year, unlike cable which was out a least once a month for me. The TV service you'll have to weigh the costs as to what equipment you want.


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## profbobo (Jan 22, 2006)

I've had FiOS internet for almost 3 years and it's amazing. Their supplied router failed once and they dropped off a replacement the next day. I was able to plug directly into the CAT5 during this time. So technically, it's never gone out that I know of.

I look at their TV offerings every few months. However, like Bill, it's just a different pricing structure for the receivers. It would cost more to replicate my setup.

I have two HD DVRs with DirecTV and DVR Lifetime from the old TiVo days.

With FiOS, I'd need a Home Media DVR ($20 per month) and HD Receiver ($10 per month). The hard drive for the Home Media DVR will only do 80 Hours SD and 20 Hours HD. That is just plain terrible.

I've called FiOS and you can get cable cards and use them with TiVo or something else. $4 a month for each CC if I recall.

I guess it all depends on the setup, equipment and services you want. For me, it would cost more to go with FiOS TV.

Another reason I won't go to FiOS TV is the wife is comfortable with DirecTV, how it works, the channels, the DVR, etc. That is a biggie. 

I just with NBC33 didn't brip every few minutes with those blue video error screens and HD was a little more resilient to rain fade.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

I have Fios internet. Top notch. The main reason I didn't get Fios TV was because the DVR's can't be updated with a larger hard-drive. 20hrs HD just doesn't cut it.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

/offtopic/ You realize you can use your own "normal" router if you want, you don't need theirs.



profbobo said:


> I've had FiOS internet for almost 3 years and it's amazing. Their supplied router failed once and they dropped off a replacement the next day. I was able to plug directly into the CAT5 during this time. So technically, it's never gone out that I know of.
> 
> I look at their TV offerings every few months. However, like Bill, it's just a different pricing structure for the receivers. It would cost more to replicate my setup.
> 
> ...


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## evan_s (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm moving into a new house this weekend and we do have the option for all the Fios services now. I've ended up going with none.

Fios TV is a good product IMO. They have a large amount of HD channels including some national channels DirecTV doesn't have. They don't have the options for out market RSNs or most of the other sports packages. The biggest downsides are the DVRs which have a pretty small hard drive, 20 hours at best for HD. I've read in the past that they were working on enabling the e-sata port for expanded storage but I don't know if that's functional yet. Also their pricing structure is closer to cable where there is no upfront fee but much higher monthly fee for the additional HD-DVRs. If you have multiple hd dvrs this ends up costing more in the long run. They do have a MRV implementation but it's still has some limitations and is still being worked on. Up until recently it was only SD programs. Ultimately we ended up sticking with DirecTV since this will be our second season with Sunday Ticket.

The Fios internet packages look pretty good and I considered them but when I went to cancel my Comcast internet they gave me a great deal to keep me around (12mb package for 24.95 a month for 12 months). Comcast isn't my favorite company by any means but their service has been reliable and fast for me in the past and the deal was too good to pass up.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

can't get it here..
and at 20hrs per dvr I'd need about 15 of them


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## NoMax (Aug 25, 2006)

Internet and phone is going to FiOS - for sure.

I have 2 HR-20s and just recently received one of them for free from D* as an HR10 upgrade with no committment. I think the HR20 is probably the most advanced DVR available anywhere. I like the fact that it has expandable storage, and the additional perks like DTV2PC and MRV coming soon. My biggest complaint is the dish alignment (2X per year) - D* sends a tech out fixes it, works well for several months then I start losing 103 and the HD channels. Dish is mounted with extra support arms & all. 

If PQ isn't that different then I'd be happy to stay with D* if they fixed my issue. It's really my only frustration. . .but in the past 3 years I must have had 5 realignments and it just keeps happening. . . .I have the protection plan so it's more of a hassle than anything.

Can't wait to dump Comcast internet. . .they charge a premium because I don't use their TV - they have restrictions & caps & all. 

NM


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## SuperZ06 (Aug 20, 2008)

*Can't get FIOS in my area. I am happy with Time Warner for phone and internet service anyway. 15mbps internet speed is hard to beat.*


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> /offtopic/ You realize you can use your own "normal" router if you want, you don't need theirs.


Actually that depends on how they provision you. They can set you up as either MoCA or ethernet. Meaning they can run either coax or cat5 from the ONT to your router. If they provision you as MoCA, you need a router that can support it. But the good news is that the ONT can handle either. You could just run cat5 yourself, or you can request that they set you up as ethernet. Or if they do set you up as MoCA, then you can later run the cat5 yourself, call them and ask them to switch your ONT to ethernet, which, as I understand it, they can do remotely.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Fiber cables were laid in my area 3 years ago. According to the local/regional Verizon office....we won't see anything connected to FIOS until at least 2012 at the earliest, even though those cables are laid up to property lines.

In addition, 3 of the surrounding 9 communities currently have legal actions underway to block it, citing the cost of rights of way and also repairs.

Not an option here likely for at least 3-5 years....and I live in an area with many Millions of people.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

houskamp said:


> can't get it here..
> and at 20hrs per dvr I'd need about 15 of them


I can get 'em, but have the same storage issue as *houskamp*.

That said, my two sisters and son, who all live nearby, are very pleased with their FIOS TV service, in spite of the 20-hour limit.

While at their homes, I've spent a fair amount of time using the FIOS DVR's and they work as expected. While PQ is subjective, fact of the matter is it's as good as you'll get... they deliver unaltered and uncompressed MPEG-2 HD feeds direct from the networks (which unfortunately contributes to the storage issue). Channel offerings are comparable to DirecTV's as well.

I've been using FIOS 10/2 internet since the fall of 2006, and I can't say enough good things about it. It's been rock solid.

Also, IP bandwidth to the FIOS STB's is generous and doesn't appear to impact internet connectivity. When you select an ON DEMAND title that allows trickplay, you can start fast forwarding through it immediately, even when viewing from a non-DVR... at least last time I tried it.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

JPL has it right. I just had FIOS internet installed and they were more than happy to run Cat5. The optical network terminal (the above-mentioned ONT) does both. However, if you use your own router, there are some things you need to know. 

First of all is that if you do go to FIOSTV they will have to run you coax and you'll have to run their router. If you want, you can use your own wireless router and bridge it to theirs. 

However, this is a big thing to note...

The ONT essentially acts as a local DHCP server with a one-address range. If you unplug their router to replace it with anything else, make sure you release the IP address first. Otherwise another router will not be able to acquire its own WAN IP. I've read that verizon can release it for you — if you find someone who knows how — or if you wait 12 hours (with the old router off) the lease expires on the WAN IP and it becomes available to the new router. 

It's just much easier to remember to google "how to release IP address on verizon FIOS router" and follow those instructions before changing out a router.


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## narrod (Jul 26, 2007)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


Yes! No more rain fade.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Weve done this already:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=157258&highlight=fios

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

True, but I'm closing that old thread, so we can have a fresh start.


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## Newshawk (Sep 3, 2004)

The only way I could even get FiOS is if Verizon bought Windstream. I still wouldn't give up DirecTV, however-4 HD DVRs and NFL Sunday Ticket.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

I have had FIOS available here for some time. I stick with DirecTV because they beat Verizon hands-down on out-of-market HD sports, which is of primary interest to me. 

From what I have seen, Verizon's PQ on SD channels is much better than DirecTVs -- on HD channels, DirecTV's PQ competes well. Since I watch little SD programming anymore, that FIOS edge means little to me.

I also think that, even given their problems, DirecTV's DVRs are far ahead of the Motorola units that FIOS uses.

The lack of rain fade is a major plus for FIOS down here in Florida during the rainy season.

DirecTV's customer service is far from perfect, but it beats Verizon's (in my experience with their land-line and cellular phone services).

Considering everything, if Verizon were more competitive in the out-of-market sports area, I would strongly consider switching. I personally could live without Sunday Ticket, but not without the amount of HD games DirecTV provides in Extra Innings and Center Ice. If I weren't a sports fan, or if I was a fan only of my local teams, I would also consider switching. 

But currently, DirecTV best fits my needs.


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## say-what (Dec 14, 2006)

houskamp said:


> can't get it here..
> and at 20hrs per dvr I'd need about 15 of them


20hrs? That would never do for me.......

I'd get their internet though.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> JPL has it right. I just had FIOS internet installed and they were more than happy to run Cat5. The optical network terminal (the above-mentioned ONT) does both. However, if you use your own router, there are some things you need to know.
> 
> First of all is that if you do go to FIOSTV they will have to run you coax and you'll have to run their router. If you want, you can use your own wireless router and bridge it to theirs.
> 
> ...


Very close, but not quite. I have FiOS TV (like I said), but my internet is provisioned as ethernet. You're correct in most respects - if you get FiOS TV you have to use their router if you care about things like guide data, VOD, and widgets... However, if you have, say, TiVo, you won't care about any of those things - the guide data would come from TiVo at that point, and you get no access to either Verizon's Widgets or VOD.

All that being said, if you have TV service, and you have one of their STBs, then they can hook you up in two ways:

1) ONT -> cable splitter via coax;
Cable splitter -> router via coax (MoCA);
Cable splitter -> STBs via coax.

2) ONT -> router via cat5 (ethernet);
ONT -> cable splitter via coax;
Cable Splitter -> STBs via coax;
Router -> cable splitter via coax;

As long as the router is hooked to the splitter, you're able to use their guide data, et. al. I'm hooked up with option #2.

But, again, as you correctly point out, you can bridge in your own router - whether you go ethernet or MoCA, if you use their router. The advantage to setup #2 - if I go with all TiVo's, e.g., I can get rid of their router entirely from my setup.


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## zimm7778 (Nov 11, 2007)

I had FIOS and returned to Directv for one reason and one reason only, NFL Sunday Ticket. If FIOS ever could offer that, I would jumo back in a New York Minute.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Ok well then for the ____ time:

NO - because fios is a cheapskate & doesnt want to shell out for Sunday Ticket.


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## weaver6 (Nov 3, 2005)

I'm a cheapskate and no longer shell out for Sunday Ticket. It's just too expensive.

I would have to think about FiOS TV, but would definitely get the Internet and phone. I had FiOS at my old place. The Internet was rock solid, and the phone finally cleared up a noisy line which was just passed around the neighborhood instead of being fixed. TV wasn't offered at first, and by the time they told me it was, I had already gone HD with DirecTV (which I had previously in SD).

I moved last year and FiOS is not available, though it may be in the next couple of years.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Correct. 1hr after I was installed (MOCA) I messaged them through the DSLREPORTS.COM Fios forum and requested ethernet be enabled. 2 hours later it was done. I had Comcast for over 25 years (under various incarnations) and when I cancelled they didn't even say goodbye.



jpl said:


> Actually that depends on how they provision you. They can set you up as either MoCA or ethernet. Meaning they can run either coax or cat5 from the ONT to your router. If they provision you as MoCA, you need a router that can support it. But the good news is that the ONT can handle either. You could just run cat5 yourself, or you can request that they set you up as ethernet. Or if they do set you up as MoCA, then you can later run the cat5 yourself, call them and ask them to switch your ONT to ethernet, which, as I understand it, they can do remotely.


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## steelhorse (Apr 27, 2004)

I just got the entire fios package Monday, had been with dish for years. Happy so far, would like a better dvr, but no service has everything.
Pq is great on all channels. No artifacts like I used to see from compression. Internet is smoking fast, I had comcrap before. Price is right. All combined is a little cheaper than I was paying and they lock in for two years price wise.
They do charge too much for a lease on their boxes.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

SuperZ06 said:


> *Can't get FIOS in my area. I am happy with Time Warner for phone and internet service anyway. 15mbps internet speed is hard to beat.*


I had Road Runner with TW cable and switched to AT&T DSL. Cable was rated at 7 mbps, but I was only getting about 3.5 mbps on average. Better during the day, worse at night and weekends when everyone in the neighborhood was online. That's what I hated about cable.

Curious if you ever ran any speed tests at peak and off peak times to see if you actual get 15 mbps? With DSL I have 6 mbps service and I consistently get 5+ mbps, with no worries of who else is in the neighborhood is online. Can't get FiOS in my area, but if they ever offer AT&T U-verse, I will probably upgrade.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

All I can tell you is that every time I run a speed test with FIOS I am at last 90% of my rated speed.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

I made the jump from DirecTV to FiOS TV early this year, and I've never regretted it. Here are the resons that I like FiOS better:

1. More national HD channels than anybody. Period. Source: AVS National HD Channel Lineups
2. Better HD picture quality. FiOS is the only carrier that does not add additional compression to their HD channels. On my 55" HD plasma, there is a noticable improvement in PQ.
3. Better SD picture quality. DirecTV down-rezes and over compresses theirs. FiOS' are near DVD quality (or almost as good as upscaled SD content on HD channels). There are actually a handful of SD channels that I watch now. With DirecTV, I couldn't stand to watch any.
4. Lower overall price for TV, Internet and phone
5. Believe it or not, I prefer the FiOS DVR to DirecTV's. It's faster, has a color-coded guide, and more intuitive DVR controls.

Regarding those that want more storage capacity on their DVRs, you can use Tivo or Moxi with FiOS (the Moxi has 500GB of internal storage and supports any external drive up to 2TB). It's also rumored that Verizon will be rolling out a new FiOS DVR with a bigger hard drive. Hopefully it will support an external drive too. I'm patiently waiting for this rather than buying a Moxi or Tivo.

Being an out of market Steelers fan (6x champs baby!), I still have DirecTV for NFL Sunday Ticket. I suspend my account for the off season (I'm grandfathered in and can do so for more than the currently allowed 6 months). During football season I do have to pay for a base package in addition to NFL ST, so it costs me approximately $24 more per month than if I had DirecTV as my sole provider. The overall savings that I realize with the FiOS triple play more than makes up for this though.

Bottom line: over the years I've had Comcast, Dish Network, DirecTV and now FiOS. FiOS is simply the best TV viewing experience that I have ever had.


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## mreposter (Jul 29, 2006)

Fios looks damned attractive, especially as a triple pay package. Too bad they only offer service in such limited areas. Anybody have screen shots of their guide/DVR functions?


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## Msguy (May 23, 2003)

I will be sticking with the tried and true. The tried and true in my book is DirecTv. I've NEVER had any problems with DirecTv. Direc' has what I want and they have all that I need. NFL Sunday Ticket Only On DirecTv. Enough Said!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

FWIW, I have 10/2 FIOS internet service in New York. Attached is a speakeasy.net/speedtest I just ran against their server in Seattle. The results are virtually identical to the same test against their New York server.

For the past few months, I've been using my Vonage-supplied Motorola router as my gateway device, and using the Verizon-supplied Actiontec as a "dumb" wireless switch.

My Vonage over FIOS service has been rock-solid as well for over a year now, including faxing, so I would heartily recommend Vonage to anyone considering switching to VOIP as well as FIOS internet.


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## UTVLamented (Oct 18, 2006)

Reaper said:


> 1. More national HD channels than anybody. Period. Source: AVS National HD Channel Lineups
> 2. Better HD picture quality. FiOS is the only carrier that does not add additional compression to their HD channels. On my 55" HD plasma, there is a noticable improvement in PQ.
> 3. Better SD picture quality. DirecTV down-rezes and over compresses theirs. FiOS' are near DVD quality (or almost as good as upscaled SD content on HD channels). There are actually a handful of SD channels that I watch now. With DirecTV, I couldn't stand to watch any.
> 4. Lower overall price for TV, Internet and phone
> 5. Believe it or not, I prefer the FiOS DVR to DirecTV's. It's faster, has a color-coded guide, and more intuitive DVR controls.


I have both FIOS and Directv and agree with all of these points except #5. It's a good DVR but the lack of storage space plus the price ($16/box) makes it tough for households like mine that need 3 DVR's. Using the multi-room feature makes the storage problem worse.

Other than that, if you don't buy the sports packages, you will never miss Directv if you switch to FIOS. I get all of the HD Directv has plus Comcast Sportsnet Philly HD, WGN HD, Travel Channel HD and over 40 premium channels in HD (I get all the premiums for the low price of $30/month).


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

mreposter said:


> Fios looks damned attractive, especially as a triple pay package. Too bad they only offer service in such limited areas. Anybody have screen shots of their guide/DVR functions?


http://www22.verizon.com/Residential/FiOSTV/MediaGuide/MediaGuide.htm


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

UTVLamented said:


> I have both FIOS and Directv and agree with all of these points except #5. It's a good DVR but ... the price ($16/box) makes it tough for households like mine that need 3 DVR's.


We're a single TV/DVR household so this isn't a concern for us. I blame my wife.


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## RCY (Nov 17, 2005)

Would love to give it a look, once its available to me. I've been holding off on moving to D*s HD DVR, given the experiences of a number of folks I know (3 of 5 are having problems) and the lack of DLB capability. (There is a DLB-like capability in the works, but I'm not sure D*s impementation will meet my expectations.)

So, a FIOS DVR or a Moxi may be a winner for me, assuming FIOS ever gets to the Fullerton, CA area.


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

Would you drop D* for FiOS? Why / why not?

In a heartbeat.

Why:
1. They offer the best picture quality
2. Travel Channel HD
3. See reason 2


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## SuperZ06 (Aug 20, 2008)

RACJ2 said:


> I had Road Runner with TW cable and switched to AT&T DSL. Cable was rated at 7 mbps, but I was only getting about 3.5 mbps on average. Better during the day, worse at night and weekends when everyone in the neighborhood was online. That's what I hated about cable.
> 
> Curious if you ever ran any speed tests at peak and off peak times to see if you actual get 15 mbps? With DSL I have 6 mbps service and I consistently get 5+ mbps, with no worries of who else is in the neighborhood is online. Can't get FiOS in my area, but if they ever offer AT&T U-verse, I will probably upgrade.


*Speedtests are misleading because of PowerBoost. Speed tests range from 25mbps to 35 mbps. Average downloads from EasyNews are a solid 14 mbps over several hours. It seems in my neighborhood day or night makes no difference. I am very happy with Time warner and RoadRunner. My wife works from home and we relies on the internet connection. Rock solid.*


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

I have FIOS internet, but not TV. A friend of mine works for Verizon so of course has everything. I watch TV regularly at his house, so here are my comments:
SD picture quality better than DirecTV, not that I watch SD very much. Some channels are just bad on both services, I guess it's "garbage in, garbage out".
HD locals either seem the same as DirecTV or better. They should be better on FIOS because FIOS uses the MPEG-2 signals from the local stations without encoding them to MPEG-4. 
National HD channels, no consistent difference.
DVR - not so good. Very limited recording time (made worse, as was posted, by the signals being MPEG-4 which takes a lot of space). 

Verizon's customer service is very erratic - this comment from a Verizon employee! You sometimes get shunted around between th different groups because they can't decide where the fault lies.


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## xmguy (Mar 27, 2008)

Verizon FiOS will NEVER come to my small city/town. So No. But even if they DID. I wouldn't switch. The "Whole house DVR" is not something I would like. 

BTW. 1,000 POSTS!


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Reaper said:


> I made the jump from DirecTV to FiOS:
> 
> 1. More national HD channels than anybody. Period. Source: AVS National HD Channel Lineups
> 
> I still have DirecTV for NFL Sunday Ticket.


1. That chart doesnt include the 23 HD RSNs directv has.
2. Since u still have directv some of the time u really only jumped half way.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

RACJ2 said:


> I had Road Runner with TW cable and switched to AT&T DSL. Cable was rated at 7 mbps, but I was only getting about 3.5 mbps on average. Better during the day, worse at night and weekends when everyone in the neighborhood was online. That's what I hated about cable.
> 
> Curious if you ever ran any speed tests at peak and off peak times to see if you actual get 15 mbps? With DSL I have 6 mbps service and I consistently get 5+ mbps, with no worries of who else is in the neighborhood is online. Can't get FiOS in my area, but if they ever offer AT&T U-verse, I will probably upgrade.


I've run speed tests at every time day and night - I've seen no degredation of speed at all. It can be 5 AM or 5 PM, and I still get 20 Meg down and 4.7 - 4.9 Meg up.


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## wiggum1 (Aug 20, 2006)

I have had D* for just over ten years. I recently had a technical issue and the response from D* was so poor, I decided to try FiOS TV. I find it to be a significant improvement over D*. 

1. On my 46" LCD and my 92" projection screen FiOS has a significantly sharper image. It was instantly noticeable. 
2. For almost exactly the same price I was paying for HBO and Starz, I get 43premium HD movie channels. (I still don't understand why D* offers one or two HBO HD channels when FiOS and cable have 14).
3. When I unplug the DVR, I don't have to wait ten minutes for it to reboot. 

I had three DVRs with D* and now I have one. I am concerned about storage, but 70% of what I had on my DVRs got deleted without watching it anyhow.

As I read all of the comments, I see the same loyality I have had for ten years. I suggest you get over it. There is something better, much better.


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## jmunick1 (Jan 1, 2007)

I have their internet service but not their TV or phone. I have D* for NFLST. I use lingo for voice.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

wiggum1 said:


> 3. When I unplug the DVR, I don't have to wait ten minutes for it to reboot.


The reason for this is pretty cool. I read an interview with one of their senior VPs where he talked about how integrated FiOS is. The reason the STBs come back so quick (and they do - my STB is up and running in less than a minute from being unplugged) is because most of the data isn't stored on your STB. When you search, e.g., you're not searching the TV listings on your STB. You're searching directly against their servers. Ditto when you access VOD listings. And even when the box comes back from a reboot, it loads a few days of data right away, but as you scroll forward in the guide, it will continually upgrade your TV listings, and does so remarkably quickly. Just keep going forward in the guide and you're up to 2 weeks of guide data in a couple minutes. Their take is that it's cheaper to have their servers do that work than to have souped up STBs do the same work.

This is one of the things that Verizon is starting to exploit, btw - their network. For example, just like DirecTV, they have remote DVR booking. But from what I understand, Verizon's has more functionality. I can set up recordings, and series from the web. But I can also set up my favorites lists, manage my parental controls, and manage my recordings (delete existing/scheduled recordings e.g.). They've also just rolled out more integrated widgets. I can now do some (very limited, I admit) stuff on facebook and twitter from my TV. Those services, per their announcement, will expand over time, to the point where you'll be able to download customized widgets to your STB (they took a page out of Apple's iphone ap store).

They now not only have a service to feed digital music and pictures from your PCs to your DVR, but you can now do the same with video - both home video, and also video from some internet sources (e.g. YouTube).

They've also announced the creation of a sling-like functionality. Not sure when that's rolling out, but I get the sense that it's happening soon. In my mind, that network connectivity is a biggie. Verizon clearly understands that and is moving very quickly to exploit that. All those analysts that panned the cost of FiOS, and the need to run fiber to the home, just missed that.


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## Boston_bill (Jul 23, 2009)

Ive considered switching but FIOS isnt available on my street even though my parents have it a mile away. I got D* through Verizon.
From what Ive seen they have at least as good of a channel lineup as us D*ers have except for NFL ST and RSN'S. They pay alot less than I do for phone, interenet and TV. I also love Verizon's customer service as opposed to D*


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

dcowboy7 said:


> 1. That chart doesnt include the 23 HD RSNs directv has.
> 2. Since u still have directv some of the time u really only jumped half way.


The RSNs, by their very definition, are not national channels - they're *regional* sports networks. While D* offers them nationally, even if you subscribe to them and, for example, MLB Extra Innings, you're still subject to out of market blackouts - which are common.

The list also doesn't include PPV channels, which D* uses to pad their HD channel count.

I have to get my NFL ST somewhere, either at home or in a sports bar. Next year it'll probably be the latter.


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## Boston_bill (Jul 23, 2009)

Reaper said:


> I have to get my NFL ST somewhere, either at home or in a sports bar. Next year it'll probably be the latter.


This could be my last year with ST also. If it goes over $300 next year it's goodbye.


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## eahmjh (Dec 2, 2006)

I signed up for FIOS phone and internet. We had phone problem with the caller ID on the D boxes. We had other phone related issues because of distance from the CO. We had [email protected] cable and once a month had to do a factory reset on the cable box and just had bad service. FIOS phone solved all our phone related issue including caller ID. Internet service has been rock solid and reliable. I sometime work from home and to get to all our server need the reliable service.

Now TV was another issue. I found no difference in HD service but thought the SD service was a bit worse. Also we would loose too many features, like Caller ID (this is big one for the wife) and thing like local channel mapping. What I mean is that ABC is channel 8 SD and the same number on D. So channel 8 is channel 8 either SD or HD. With FIOS local channel ABC SD is 8 but channel ABC HD is like 508. The wife is real slow to change and since we have been with since "96 she has all her favorite channel memorize by heart.

We also had big internet relate problems also. Just after installation I tested the download speed by downloading WinXP SP2 (about 200+MB) and as the download started and about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way would crash and lock up the route. Force to power down and back up. Never could download SP2. Said no to TV and their router. Just accept the D-Link wireless router they gave me and nar a problem since. So no TV service here. On demand never worked right either, in that if you paused it and restarted it, it would go back to the beginning. Hum...

Keeping D and rain fade is OK since it don't rain that much in Texas. Lik'en what we got and keepin it so.


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## kjsmithtx (Jul 28, 2006)

Thought about it but NFL ST is holding me hostage.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

If it were available here (it is not, and is not expected), I would get it for internet. For TV, I'm perfectly happy with DirecTV.


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## djrobx (Jan 27, 2009)

> Regarding those that want more storage capacity on their DVRs, you can use Tivo or Moxi with FiOS (the Moxi has 500GB of internal storage and supports any external drive up to 2TB). It's also rumored that Verizon will be rolling out a new FiOS DVR with a bigger hard drive. Hopefully it will support an external drive too. I'm patiently waiting for this rather than buying a Moxi or Tivo.


You can do that ... but TiVo Series 3 is not cheap. You either have to hand over a ridiculous truckload of money for lifetime service or be stuck with a big recurring fee, after having shelled for equipment PLUS renting CableCARDs. After all that you're on the hook for any hardware failures once the warranty expires.

I find it completely revolting that a Verizon, a company on the cutting edge of fiber to the home delivery, can't bother to include a DVR with the sort of storage needed to timeshift a reasonable amount of that gorgeous, minimally compressed MPEG2 HD. AT&T's U-verse hard drives aren't much bigger (recently upgraded to 250gb), but since they use highly compressed MPEG-4, it's not as bad.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

I switched to FIOS back in Feb of 2007, several months before DirecTV activated any of their mpeg4 HD channels. I was in a situation where I had to decide whether or not to swap out my HDTivos for the DTV HD-DVR and get locked into another 2-year commitment based on a service that was only speculation at the time. Nobody had seen any mpeg4 content broadcast by DirecTV and I didn't want to get stuck with a service I wasn't happy with. The early HR20's were problematic and I wasn't too keen on dropping my Tivos for a piece of crap. Fortunately, many of the bugs have since been worked out and the HR20/HR21 series has worked out fairly well for most people based on what I've read.

The series 3 Tivos were the only DVR option available with FIOS other than the Motorola QIP-6416 that Verizon was using. I had no desire to go with the Moto box so the Tivo was really my only viable choice. I had internet service with Comcast that was costing me about $60/month (ironically, it would have been cheaper to have both basic cable and internet from Comcast). The FIOS internet was just too tempting to pass up and I was tired of Comcast's lousy service so getting the FIOS internet was a no-brainer.

I ended up getting the basic TV package with HBO, two standard STBs and one HD box. I eventually upgraded to the HD Extreme package when it became available. I bought two S3 Tivos and committed to a 3-year deal with each one. I prepaid for three years on the 1st Tivo and added the 2nd one a few months later. Lifetime service wasn't being offered at that time. With the prepaid plan averaging about $8.31 monthly for the 1st Tivo and two cablecards costing $2.99 each (I'm still grandfathered in under the original rate), I was paying about the same, if not slightly less, than what the Verizon HD-DVR would cost. The 2nd S3 Tivo cost me even less with the 3-year commitment and the reduced monthly fee with the MSD. 

Program costs were pretty much of a wash. I also got the landline phone service for about $30/month with unlimited long distance and caller ID so I saved money on my phone bill. Having the TV, phone, and internet gave me an additional discount on my TV service. I already had Verizon wireless so I was able to get all four services on a single monthly bill.

The internet is blazingly fast and the best I've ever used. I would switch to FIOS for this reason alone. The TV service is outstanding and the picture quality is as good as anything I've seen from Comcast in HD. I have not seen anything from DirecTV in the way of mpeg4 HD so I can't make any comparison with their current service. Since I'm using (S) cablecards with my two S3 Tivos I have no 2-way communication for VOD services nor do I get the FIOS program guide on my Tivos. I use the Verizon STBs very sparingly so I can't comment on them with any level of expertise. 

Did I mention that I also get about 12 local channels in HD vs. 4 that DirecTV is offering? Although it took a good while, FIOS now offers the same, if not more, HD channels as DirecTV. The FIOS installers and numerous techs I've dealt with have been topnotch. I installed all of my own dishes for DirecTV so I've had few interactions with any of their techs, and the ones I did meet weren't worth a darn. Verizon has been very quick to respond to any service requests (usually had someone there in a matter of hours and sometimes as little as 30 minutes after I called). It could take you weeks to get someone from DirecTV to show up. This is probably more of a regional thing with Verizon so YMMV.


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

djrobx said:


> You can do that ... but TiVo Series 3 is not cheap. You either have to hand over a ridiculous truckload of money for lifetime service or be stuck with a big recurring fee, after having shelled for equipment PLUS renting CableCARDs. After all that you're on the hook for any hardware failures once the warranty expires.
> 
> I find it completely revolting that a Verizon, a company on the cutting edge of fiber to the home delivery, can't bother to include a DVR with the sort of storage needed to timeshift a reasonable amount of that gorgeous, minimally compressed MPEG2 HD. AT&T's U-verse hard drives aren't much bigger (recently upgraded to 250gb), but since they use highly compressed MPEG-4, it's not as bad.


See my above post regarding costs of the S3 Tivo vs. the FIOS DVR. The lack of storage capacity was a dealbreaker for me and what ultimately pushed me in the direction of Tivo. FYI - when you prepay for a multi-year commitment you get a discount on the service. That discount is maintained even after the commitment period expires. My 3-year prepaid commitment works out to $8.31 monthly for the Tivo service. When the 3-year period runs out I will be billed $8.31 per month by Tivo. Granted, I paid for the 3-year plan when it was being offered for $199 and my cablecard fees are grandfathered in at the lower rate of $2.99 apiece vs. the current $3.99 monthly fee. Even so, I'll be able to use my S3 Tivos for six years before the cost exceeds what a lifetime subscription would have run me. My 2nd S3 Tivo will enjoy a longer service period before I hit the break even poitn of the lifetimefee due to the reduced monthly cost with the MSD @ $6.95/month.

Tivo hardware failures are usually hard drive related over 95% of the time. Replacing a Tivo hard drive is ridiculously easy with the current software tools available (even a caveman could do it) so your argument is moot. I've voided the warranty of every Tivo I've owned and never had to deal with a warranty replacement from Tivo because any problems were easily fixed by either replacing the hard drive or reinstalling the software.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

Time for a rhetorical question... do they offer the NFLST?


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## captain_video (Nov 22, 2005)

braven said:


> Time for a rhetorical question... do they offer the NFLST? There in lies my answer to if I'd switch to FIOS.


No. Sports packages are the one area where DirecTV essentially holds a monopoly, although I think Dish is trying to play catch-up. FWIW, I'm able to watch every game for my local football team (Ravens) without the need for the NFLST. With anywhere from 3-5 games on the networks every Sunday, Sunday Night Football, and Monday Night Football, plus the NFL channel in HD and various games on Thursdays and Saturday nights, I get all the football I will ever need. Obviously, if you are not living in the same region as your favorite team then the NFLST could be a dealbreaker for you.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

SuperZ06 said:


> *Average downloads from EasyNews are a solid 14 mbps over several hours. It seems in my neighborhood day or night makes no difference. I am very happy with Time warner and RoadRunner. .*


That's great, maybe its the PowerBoost that helps. You read about my speed issues with RoadRunner. My brother has RR in another state and he confirmed what I experienced, only his results were worse. He's rated for 10 mbps w/o PowerBoost, but on speed tests he is only getting around 4 mbps. Not sure why RR is so bad in some areas. Maybe they upgrade their equipment in areas that they have heavy competition?



Steve said:


> FWIW, I have 10/2 FIOS internet service in New York. Attached is a speakeasy.net/speedtest I just ran against their server in Seattle. The results are virtually identical to the same test against their New York server.
> 
> My Vonage over FIOS service has been rock-solid as well for over a year now, including faxing, so I would heartily recommend Vonage to anyone considering switching to VOIP as well as FIOS internet.


My speed comments were about cable internet and I definitely experienced degradation at peak times. With the fiber optic technology that FiOS uses, I would expect it to remain close to the rated speed.


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## braven (Apr 9, 2007)

captain_video said:


> No. Sports packages are the one area where DirecTV essentially holds a monopoly, although I think Dish is trying to play catch-up. FWIW, I'm able to watch every game for my local football team (Ravens) without the need for the NFLST. With anywhere from 3-5 games on the networks every Sunday, Sunday Night Football, and Monday Night Football, plus the NFL channel in HD and various games on Thursdays and Saturday nights, I get all the football I will ever need. *Obviously, if you are not living in the same region as your favorite team then the NFLST could be a dealbreaker for you.*


Ding ding ding ding ding, we have a winner!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> Verizon's customer service is very erratic - this comment from a Verizon employee! You sometimes get shunted around between th different groups because they can't decide where the fault lies.


Ya, at the end of the day, you're still dealing with the old "phone company" mentality. :lol: I have to think they'll catch up with the times sooner or later, tho.

Regarding the DVR storage issue, I wonder if the recent court victory by Cablevision over the studios will allow Verizon to employ a similar tactic? I.e., have users schedule recordings via diskless STB's, but record and store them on Verizon servers, instead of locally. With the bandwidth capacity available into the home that FIOS provides, where the recordings are actually stored could be virtually transparent to the customer, like it is now when watching FIOS VOD.

A Verizon spokesman was recently quoted as saying that they could theoretically deliver 400 MBPS into the home.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


Verizon doesn't cover my specific area for phone service (although they are all around me). If they did cover my area, I'd only switch to FIOS if they offered the HD RSNs (like D* does) and offered the sports packages (namely, MLB EI and NHL CI both in HD). I don't see Verizon FIOS doing the first item and they won't be covering my area anytime soon, so I guess I'm staying with D*. Embarq services my local phone area and they won't be going FIOS anytime soon.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

braven said:


> Ding ding ding ding ding, we have a winner!


Yep!


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## JayB (Mar 19, 2007)

Cincinnati Bell has just done a re-work of their fiber to the home web site - it looks like they're moving out the testing phase with just a few apartment buildings/complexes around town to a general roll-out, so I checked it out. They'll probably get me to switch from TW Business Class (10mb/s) internet to CBs fastest 30mb/s (synchronous! My Windows Home Server's gonna like that!), and maybe get me to switch from Vonage to them for phone (if I can keep the same number - the reason I went with Vonage is that CB wouldn't let me keep it when I moved). But for TV? Naw, I don't think so - in comparison their HD lineup is pretty sucky - no Smithsonian, a single HBO, a single Showtime, you have to pay extra for HGTV-HD and Food-HD. Even TW has a better selection.


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## Jimmy 440 (Nov 17, 2007)

Only if they had every regional RSN in D'd sports pack.Unlike others in different threads,I love the sports pack.


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## Daggett (Mar 20, 2008)

Steve said:


> Regarding the DVR storage issue, I wonder if the recent court victory by Cablevision over the studios will allow Verizon to employ a similar tactic? I.e., have users schedule recordings via diskless STB's, but record and store them on Verizon servers, instead of locally. With the bandwidth capacity available into the home that FIOS provides, where the recordings are actually stored could be virtually transparent to the customer, like it is now when watching FIOS VOD.


One thought I've had for some time is that they could literally keep a running record of every channel for several months or more on central servers. Want to see any random show at any time from any channel? No problem, just select the channel and time and you can see the recorded program, streamed right to your house, it would be like a 100 tuner dvr with unlimited space. And it would be pretty cheap to implement too, the box would be little more than a transceiver and decoder, and you'd only need a couple hundred petabytes of storage. I see the ultimate future of TV as being extremely VOD-esque, witnessed by the popularity of NetFlix on demand and the like.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

TBlazer07 said:


> I have Fios internet. Top notch. The main reason I didn't get Fios TV was because the DVR's can't be updated with a larger hard-drive. 20hrs HD just doesn't cut it.


This was one of my reasons. I am moving in 2 weeks. I am having Fios internet installed, and was considering trying their TV, but $20 for a DVR? That I can't put my 1TB drive on and upgrade? No thanks.

That, and I have some loyalty to DirecTV. I will say that rainfade has been a problem of late, but I'm hoping it has been my location and this new location since there are no trees in the way will make it easier on me.


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## VHS or Beta (Feb 22, 2008)

There are two big issues with FiOS for me here in the NYC metro which are total deal killers for me, if I'm correct about them:

1. No MSG HD (MSG Network carries the New York Knicks, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils and Buffalo Sabres) 

2. No MSNBC at all

I don't care how many HD channels are in their lineup altogether, there goes half my TV viewing with their failure to carry just those two. Can anyone with FiOS in NYC/NJ confirm?


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

VHS or Beta said:


> There are two big issues with FiOS for me here in the NYC metro which are total deal killers for me, if I'm correct about them:
> 
> 1. No MSG HD (MSG Network carries the New York Knicks, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils and Buffalo Sabres)
> 
> ...


I do know that Verizon is suing Cablevision for the ability to carry MSG HD. This is the Dolan's fault, not Verizon's.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

djrobx said:


> You can do that ... but TiVo Series 3 is not cheap. You either have to hand over a ridiculous truckload of money for lifetime service or be stuck with a big recurring fee, after having shelled for equipment PLUS renting CableCARDs. After all that you're on the hook for any hardware failures once the warranty expires.
> 
> I find it completely revolting that a Verizon, a company on the cutting edge of fiber to the home delivery, can't bother to include a DVR with the sort of storage needed to timeshift a reasonable amount of that gorgeous, minimally compressed MPEG2 HD. AT&T's U-verse hard drives aren't much bigger (recently upgraded to 250gb), but since they use highly compressed MPEG-4, it's not as bad.


In my previous post, I was trying to point out alternatives to the two biggest gripes that prevent folks moving from D* to FiOS TV: lack of DVR storage and no NFL ST.

Tivo and Moxi are the alternatives to the FiOS DVR. I don't find the Tivo option particularly attractive, I hate the idiot-proof and dated interface, the in-menu ads, and the monthly subscription fees. plus I absolutely despised the DirecTivo when I had it. But that's a matter of taste, isn't it?

The Moxi on the other hand, I think that's compelling. No monthly subscription, no ads, fresh true-HD 16:9 interface. Hummita hummita! The cost is a turn off but they are offering 0% financing over 20 months, meaning that you can get one for $39.95/month (I pay $16.99/month for the FiOS HD DVR). With up to 2.5 TB of DVR storage, it's so tempting...

And, again from my previous post, it has been reported that Verizon is working on a FiOS DVR with more storage.

With U-verse you have to use AT&T's boxes, there are no alternatives.

Regarding NFL ST, I love the Steelers, and I love watching the NFL. But I watch NFL ST *17 days *out of the year, and everything else the other 348. I'll be damned if I'll allow my viewing experience to be held hostage by *4.5%* of my viewing habits. That just makes no sense to me (although it's at the heart of DirecTV's strategy, and it works oh so well). My solution? I keep DirecTV for NFL ST only, and I STILL save money compared to having D* as my sole provider.


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## VHS or Beta (Feb 22, 2008)

Reaper said:


> I do know that Verizon is suing Cablevision for the ability to carry MSG HD. This is the Dolan's fault, not Verizon's.


It doesn't matter to me whose fault it is. The question is, would I switch? On that basis, the answer is no.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

VHS or Beta said:


> It doesn't matter to me whose fault it is. The question is, would I switch? On that basis, the answer is no.


Ya. I'm sure Dolan is playing hardball with Verizon, because they represent the biggest threat to his Cablevision revenues he's ever seen. A couple of my family members and several friends I have in this area have dumped Cablevision for FiosTV. My daughter, who's also a Cablevision customer, was going to switch when her apartment building was recently wired for Fios, but decided not to, but only after she called Cablevision and they agreed to match the triple-play pricing she was going to get from Verizon.

It will be interesting to see if Verizon prevails in the courts. It seems kind of unfair that Dolan is withholding MSG HD from Verizon, but not DirecTV or Dish, who also compete with Cablevision.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Coincidentally, I just noticed this on nytimes.com. It may have a bearing on the MSG carriage issue:

*Cablevision Approves Madison Square Garden Spinoff
*July 30, 2009, 9:34 AM

Cablevision Systems said on Thursday that its board had approved a plan to spin off a basket of assets including Madison Square Garden and Radio City Music Hall in New York as a separate company.

Cablevision, a cable group controlled by the Dolan family, said in May it was considering a spinoff of the business, which also includes the New York Knicks and Rangers sports teams and the MSG and Fuse cable networks. Some analysts have estimated the stand-alone business could be worth as much as $1.5 billion.

James Dolan, the president and chief executive of Cablevision, said in a statement on Thursday that the spinoff would "create two distinct companies, each with enhanced strategic flexibility, its own defined business focus and clear investment characteristics."

Mr. Dolan will be the executive chairman of the spun-off company, which, like Cablevision, will be controlled by the Dolan family through their ownership of a special class of shares. Cablevision said it expects the spinoff to be completed by the end of the year.

The Dolan family has tried several times in the last few years to take their company private, but their efforts failed amid resistance from shareholders who were holding out for a higher price.

Some analysts believe that Cablevision's stock price is depressed because investors who want the stable cash flow of a cable business aren't interested in owning a live-event franchise like Madison Square Garden, which is scheduled for an expensive renovation in the next few years.

In Thursday's announcement, Cablevision sought to tamp down speculation that it might also be considering asset sales as well. It said it is "not considering the sale of MSG, any of MSG's businesses or any other Cablevision business at this time."


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

I have been happy with D* so I wouldn't switch. Like others, I would get FIOS internet.


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## Aztec Pilot (Oct 11, 2007)

I would not change. I am happy with D*. Though, the fact that FIOS is not in my area, adds serious weight to my decision!


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## fluffybear (Jun 19, 2004)

SPACEMAKER said:


> I have been happy with D* so I wouldn't switch. Like others, I would get FIOS internet.


+1

Fios Internet is the only thing I would be interested in


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## jonkeee (Jul 17, 2009)

If you have the option, most definitely worth the switch. Fios internet is ridiculous and you can get a pretty good deal bundling.


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## karlhenri (Sep 25, 2007)

I have FIOS internet and phone and DirecTV. 

Why am I considering changing: 
- Would save money. No question
- More premiums in HD. Let's not discuss how they show the same thing over and over. I must have HBO because of Tru Blood. But as long as I am doing that I would prefer more HD and more channel choices for the same price vs. less.

- FIOS offers TV5 (French channel) while D* still shows no desire to add any. Can't understand why because Dish has it and Cablevision has it too. Totally frustrating considering the other intenational choices they have.
- They have certain local channels that DirecTV doesn't carry

Why have I not done it yet:
- Don't want to lose the seniority with D* and whatever value it has in their eyes
- A sense (may be misplaced) that in the long run a TV first company such as DirecTV will find a way to offer a superior TV experience to a Telecom.
- Will miss certain things: Multiplex and mix Channels for Tennis and Olympics; look and feel of guides; Directv2pc etc.
- Thinking DirecTV will offer better access to soccer than FIOS
- Worried about this DVR thing

NFLST has no bearing in the decision for me. I am not a subscriber. 
-


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

I have been considering this for a while now, and I am about to suspend my directv service for a while. I am going to try fios and see if it works for me and if so, then later I will drop D*.

I've had fios for about 3 hours now, and so far it is incredible. Comparing the PQ back to back on the same monitor, FIOS is clearly superior, on both SD and HD channels (well the ones I care about and have checked). I finally get PBS channels in HD, I have a number of local channels now, in HD, and this is good.

I'm using the non-dvr HD box, and it is vastly superior to my H21. It is fast, as fast or faster than the H21 was last year when I got it - with the latest crap software updates, my H21 has gotten slower - the slow channel changes and the slow guide response has grown like a virus from the HR21. ugh. The FIOS box is wonderfully fast - any channel change I've tried occurs in under 1/2 sec, nearly instantaneously. The guide operation is also instantaneous, like a modern computer.

Oh, and the interface, wow. D* interface and guide look downright amateur compared to FIOS. No exaggeration. There is intelligent use of color, and in the guide, programs are colored according to their content - red for movies, green for sports, etc. What a concept (this was debuted how many years ago? ).

Oh, yea, NO FARKING ADS in the guide display. what a concept!

So far, I find FIOS exceptionally good. I really hope this keeps up.

One more thing, the on demand library (just the free stuff) is great - it includes a selection of movies, including a small selection of HD movies (all free), and very interestingly - there are a number of networks with programs available. My favorite, I can watch maybe 10 TCM movies on demand, free, and they start right up and just work. Excellent.

This service is great. The SD box is nice too. It's nice to have a professional looking interface for a change. And with the triple play, it's saving me 10's of dollars per month.

Finally, I am waiting for my Tivo. It's going to get better. Can't wait.


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## ntwrkd (Apr 19, 2006)

NO! My mom has Fios Tv. She does not have a dvr but there is no caller id, no MSGHD and less HD channels. They do have PBS and locals in HD but so does D* in my area. I'll take their internet in a minute. I can't wait 'til they wire up my area so I can personally yank Time Warner's internet coax from my house.
DirecTv for me!


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## 506PIR (Sep 22, 2006)

I too would quickly switch to their internet service. I'm disgusted by Time Warner in Los Angeles. Garbage! They haven't started laying out the cable yet but I've been seeing trucks a lot lately with Fios ads on the side. I would consider Fios for tv. Just depends what deals they have.


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

Reaper said:


> I made the jump from DirecTV to FiOS TV early this year, and I've never regretted it. Here are the resons that I like FiOS better:
> 
> 1. More national HD channels than anybody. Period. Source: AVS National HD Channel Lineups
> 2. Better HD picture quality. FiOS is the only carrier that does not add additional compression to their HD channels. On my 55" HD plasma, there is a noticable improvement in PQ.
> ...


After carefully reviewing the HD channel lineups I would still stick with D*. Other than the Travel Channel and couple of premiums there isn't much I am interested in as far as the additional channels. I have confidence that D* will be adding them by next year. Also when it comes to the premiums the numbers get a bit skewed due to the whole east/west thing. Those are basically duplicates as far as I am concerned. I am happy with the PQ I get from D* and I haven't had any DVR problems in ages. Also, I like The 101 (Trailer Park Boys!) as well as Hotpass and all of the special channels they add for golf Majors and Tennis.

However, I can see how Fios would be very attractive to some because it seems like a good product. If they were to offer Fios in my area (bloody unlikely) I would take a very close look at it and do a comparison at that time.


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## VARTV (Dec 14, 2006)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


Dropped cable internet as soon as FiOS was available. Landline and Internet are fiber. Staying with DirecTV *only* for NFLST-HD...


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## VARTV (Dec 14, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> However, this is a big thing to note...
> 
> The ONT essentially acts as a local DHCP server with a one-address range. If you unplug their router to replace it with anything else, make sure you release the IP address first. Otherwise another router will not be able to acquire its own WAN IP. I've read that verizon can release it for you - if you find someone who knows how - or if you wait 12 hours (with the old router off) the lease expires on the WAN IP and it becomes available to the new router.


I have a Verizon number (1-888) that goes directly to a CSR... *NO* menu prompts. Asked to release my IP addy and a minute later I was up and running. I use my own N router since I don't have FiOS TV... yet...


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

VARTV said:


> I have a Verizon number (1-888) that goes directly to a CSR... *NO* menu prompts. Asked to release my IP addy and a minute later I was up and running. I use my own N router since I don't have FiOS TV... yet...


Interesting. I wonder if something has changed recently, or if it's location (or router) dependent? I last switched routers a few months ago and had no issues getting a new IP automatically.


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## ToddinVA (Mar 5, 2006)

VHS or Beta said:


> 2. No MSNBC at all


Really?? That would be a reason to switch to them though! :lol:


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

ToddinVA said:


> Really?? That would be a reason to switch to them though! :lol:


I won't comment on the content of MSNBC, but what's written is not entirely true (that it's not available at all). Here's the deal. Right now MSNBC has an exclusive carry agreement with CableVision, in areas that are serviced by CV. So, if you live in CV area, no other cable operator (including Verizon) can offer the channel to you until that contract expires. All other FiOS areas do have MSNBC - we get it here on channel 103.

It used to be more restricted than it currently is. Because of how Verizon feeds out their national channels, they had issues in distributing the channel to customers in some states. For example, northern NJ is all served by the same Verizon VHO (video head office - sorta like a regional cable office). Since parts of Northern NJ are CV territory, at one time if you were anywhere in that region, you couldn't get the channel - even if your particular town wasn't served by CV. So, for example, my brother, who lives in Northern NJ, even though he's in Comcast territory, couldn't get the channel on FiOS. From what I understand, that's been changing. I don't know how extensive the change has been - there may still be areas in regions where CV operates where the channel is not available to FiOS customers, even if CV doesn't serve their particular town. But if you live in a town serviced by CV, you won't get the channel on FiOS until that exclusive carry contract expires.


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## ToddinVA (Mar 5, 2006)

jpl said:


> I won't comment on the content of MSNBC, but what's written is not entirely true (that it's not available at all). Here's the deal. Right now MSNBC has an exclusive carry agreement with CableVision, in areas that are serviced by CV. So, if you live in CV area, no other cable operator (including Verizon) can offer the channel to you until that contract expires. All other FiOS areas do have MSNBC - we get it here on channel 103.
> 
> It used to be more restricted than it currently is. Because of how Verizon feeds out their national channels, they had issues in distributing the channel to customers in some states. For example, northern NJ is all served by the same Verizon VHO (video head office - sorta like a regional cable office). Since parts of Northern NJ are CV territory, at one time if you were anywhere in that region, you couldn't get the channel - even if your particular town wasn't served by CV. So, for example, my brother, who lives in Northern NJ, even though he's in Comcast territory, couldn't get the channel on FiOS. From what I understand, that's been changing. I don't know how extensive the change has been - there may still be areas in regions where CV operates where the channel is not available to FiOS customers, even if CV doesn't serve their particular town. But if you live in a town serviced by CV, you won't get the channel on FiOS until that exclusive carry contract expires.


Interesting. Didn't know they had an exclusive agreement like that anywhere.


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## VeniceDre (Aug 16, 2006)

I picked up the Fios Internet service as soon as my home was wired in May. It's been golden, and with no interruption of service. I get a constant 20/5 mbps for the same price of my old TW 8/1 connection.

I've looked into myabe picking up the Fios TV but

a) No Sunday Ticket (Ya got me DirecTV)
b) It gets really expensive when you start adding multiple HD DVRs

If DirecTV ever loses it's exclusive maybe I'd consider Fios. I still toy with the idea though of having both services.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

I have half made the switch. I am still in the process of shutting down Directivo receivers while I clear them off and while I have all the promotional discounts on Fios.

I ended up going from 4 Directivos to 2 Tivo HDs with lifetime which I got at a price I couldn't pass up which is why I switched in the first place. With automatic transfers to my home server, space isn't an issue though I will probably upgrade both Tivos to 1tb drives before the fall season hits. I also bought 2 dual tuner clearqam/OTA PCIE cards for a total of $100 which I put in my Windows 7 PC which gives me 4 tuners dedicated to local programming and lets me use my 360 to stream content to a third room. 

By switching to Fios I gained HD, better Tivos, Windows 7 DVR, and it costs less per month. DirecTv without HD and Fios phone and internet cost me $250 a month while Fios triple play will cost me around $180 a month. I don't have an exact amount yet because I have only gotten my first bill yet and combined with all my initial discounts it is tough to get a bearing on what it will cost after the discounts expire. I am definitely glad I made the switch and so far several of my friends have followed.


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## Sackchamp56 (Nov 10, 2006)

I'm pretty sure we will never get fios. We still dont even have 7MB DSL. If aliens came and put down fiber runs in my town, I would get their internet. I have no desire to switch to anything other that Directv for tv and I dont want phone service.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

Absolutely, without question, it is awesome in Pittsburgh. I would be willing to eat the cancellation fee if my condo complex would get it. Mos of my area has it, (Moon Twp) the PQ is outstanding and the HD availability is amazing. Pittsburgh proper just approved Verizon to compete with COmCrap. Let's face it the HR23-700 is just ok as a DVR really not much better than the crappy Moto Boxes but at least we get a decent hard drive. Dish ViP622 and up and TiVO series 3 are heads and shoulders above (I am really missing my TiVO HD but not the Comcrap that came along with it)...


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

I'd never switch...One reason: Out-of-market HD sports.


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## Guesst925XTU (Jan 29, 2004)

FIOS isn't available here right now, but...

I would jump ship in a heartbeat if FIOS gave me my true locals (PHILA.).

I'm stuck with NYC locals (which don't give me any local news/sports/weather).

Right now if I put on my "local" news from the NYC DMA, it's all about towns in Northern NJ or NYC or CT that I've never been to. My "local" sports coverage is of teams about 3 hours away and not of the teams only 45 minutes away. My "local" weather doesn't even show me on their radar maps!


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## azblanchards (Aug 2, 2009)

We just moved to Northern Virginia and considered FIOS. In the end, we decided to do only Fios internet and not television largely because of the superior DVR capacity for Directv. That being said, if FIOS ever improves the DVR and adds the ability to add an external hard drive, i would be very tempted to add FIOS television. In the end, while we did not make the switch, the compeition can only be good for consumers. 

(One note, however: my experience with Verizon customer service has been pretty aweful. For all its faults, Directv customer service is much better IMHO.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

kimi said:


> The FIOS box is wonderfully fast - any channel change I've tried occurs in under 1/2 sec, nearly instantaneously. The guide operation is also instantaneous, like a modern computer.


If we are to believe some of the experts here it is impossible to change channels that fast on any HD system. You must be mistaken


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Ken S said:


> If we are to believe some of the experts here it is impossible to change channels that fast on any HD system. You must be mistaken


Nope, it's true - FiOS TV is VERY fast when changing channels, accessing the guide, pulling up menus, etc.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Reaper said:


> Nope, it's true - FiOS TV is VERY fast when changing channels, accessing the guide, pulling up menus, etc.


Yep, it is. It really is much faster than changing channels on my old DirecTV receivers. These boxes really are pretty fast - one comment with this. When I had my old R15s, one feature that I really liked was the mark & delete. Made sense to me - select which items you wanted to get rid of, and erase a bunch at one time. This DVR (the Verizon DVR) doesn't have anything like that. It bugged me at first, until I realized something. The only reason I needed that feature before was because the R15s were horribly slow at deleting recordings (I know, we're not talking changing channels, but I'm just using this as an example). The moto DVR, despite its flaws, is really fast with regard to that - Even if Verizon offered that feature now, I wouldn't use it, because I don't really need it.

And when we first switched to FiOS, Verizon still didn't have their own guide s/w - they still used the Microsoft s/w. The newer s/w is faster for everything, but even with the old Microsoft s/w I noticed just how much more reponsive the motorola box was. And with their new s/w, the performance has only improved. Scrolling through the guide is as close to instantaneous as I've ever seen, and channel changes are fast.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

My wife & I just test drove FiOS(TV), and we just dropped it within a week after installation. Fortunately, we will not incur any early cancellation fee, because they afforded us a 15-day cancellation window, thank god!. My wife & I just thought their HD DVR was a big time joke! We got the moto 6416 and its meager 160gig HD and all their encoding is MPEG2. My wife in only a handful of shows filled it up and she was left saying 'Where's the beef' ?!?!?! The UI guide was a joke too. No screensaver like our HR20/21s if you should leave the device unattended, not a good thing when u own a PDP. Sure they might have a lot more HD & a nice media manager service and MRV, but not going to sacrifice the aforementioned.

We had also heard that the FiOS SD programming looked better than D* SD, this is NOT the case. It looks bad on either! We dream of the day when all is HD! It'll be nice when we can have the channel guide/UI in HD too...........I've heard this is coming thru some of the posts i've read. C'mon D* make it happen sooooooooooooooner than later.


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

Ken S said:


> If we are to believe some of the experts here it is impossible to change channels that fast on any HD system. You must be mistaken


Edited:

I missed the sarcasm tag in this post, so I've deleted my response to it.

Sorry Ken.


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

texasmoose said:


> My wife & I just test drove FiOS(TV), and we just dropped it within a week after installation. Fortunately, we will not incur any early cancellation fee, because they afforded us a 15-day cancellation window, thank god!. My wife & I just thought their HD DVR was a big time joke! We got the moto 6416 and its meager 160gig HD and all their encoding is MPEG2. My wife in only a handful of shows filled it up and she was left saying 'Where's the beef' ?!?!?! The UI guide was a joke too. No screensaver like our HR20/21s if you should leave the device unattended, not a good thing when u own a PDP. Sure they might have a lot more HD & a nice media manager service and MRV, but not going to sacrifice the aforementioned.
> 
> We had also heard that the FiOS SD programming looked better than D* SD, this is NOT the case. It looks bad on either! We dream of the day when all is HD! It'll be nice when we can have the channel guide/UI in HD too...........I've heard this is coming thru some of the posts i've read. C'mon D* make it happen sooooooooooooooner than later.


Fortunately I've had exactly the opposite experience. I swapped between D* and F* on the same monitor and for several SD and HD channels, picture quality in my location was noticeably better. And I find the UI excellent - professional compared to the amateur D* UI.


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

kimi said:


> Yea, well, you don't have to believe me, but I'm not exaggerating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are completely misreading Ken's post.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Ken S said:


> If we are to believe some of the experts here it is impossible to change channels that fast on any HD system. You must be mistaken





kimi said:


> Yea, well, you don't have to believe me, but I'm not exaggerating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was just being sarcastic. He's not agreeing with the experts.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

kimi said:


> Yea, well, you don't have to believe me, but I'm not exaggerating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kimi,

I wasn't doubting your report...I've seen the same thing with changing HD channels on other services. There are some here that won't admit DirecTV is just plain slow at channel changes.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

My condo association has been a customer of Cablevision for almost 30 years and we get the family package for a steep discount, but this Tuesday Verizon FiOS will be making a pitch to a homeowners meeting to discuss FiOS and based on the resident response, the Board may consider dropping Cablevision.

I guess I'll have to start reading up on FiOS. For sure I won't drop DIRECTV, but I want to know if I can still get ClearQAM channels from FiOS to work in MediaCenter on my Vista HTPC, what kind of internet speeds I'd get (and at what cost) or if it'd just be DSL, and what Verizon charges for DVRs and installation. Even though I've peen paying for DIRECTV directly since 2003, I still have had a cable DVR all along since it only cost me an extra $10/month (above what I was already paying for cable as part of my common fees). Time to start researching ...


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

Ken S said:


> Kimi,
> 
> I wasn't doubting your report...I've seen the same thing with changing HD channels on other services. There are some here that won't admit DirecTV is just plain slow at channel changes.


Ken, I'm sorry, I misread your post. Please accept my apology.

You can call me sarcasm-impaired until I get better.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

texasmoose said:


> My wife & I just test drove FiOS(TV), and we just dropped it within a week after installation. Fortunately, we will not incur any early cancellation fee, because they afforded us a 15-day cancellation window, thank god!. My wife & I just thought their HD DVR was a big time joke! We got the moto 6416 and its meager 160gig HD and all their encoding is MPEG2. My wife in only a handful of shows filled it up and she was left saying 'Where's the beef' ?!?!?! The UI guide was a joke too. No screensaver like our HR20/21s if you should leave the device unattended, not a good thing when u own a PDP. Sure they might have a lot more HD & a nice media manager service and MRV, but not going to sacrifice the aforementioned.
> 
> We had also heard that the FiOS SD programming looked better than D* SD, this is NOT the case. It looks bad on either! We dream of the day when all is HD! It'll be nice when we can have the channel guide/UI in HD too...........I've heard this is coming thru some of the posts i've read. C'mon D* make it happen sooooooooooooooner than later.


Their DVR has extremely limited capacity. That seems to be the most major flaw in the service, which is why many also buy a Tivo. That should change later this year, but I agree that you should decide based on what they have NOW rather than what will be promised later.

The set top box has a screen saver. But no caller ID.

Your TV has a problem where all SD looks like garbage. Many HDTVs do. Many don't (including old NTSC TVs), and with those TVs you can tell FIOS is better.

At least you had 15 days to cancel (I thought it was 30) and didn't have to enter into a contract, rather than having zero days to cancel and getting stuck with a two year lease.


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## Ken S (Feb 13, 2007)

kimi said:


> Ken, I'm sorry, I misread your post. Please accept my apology.
> 
> You can call me sarcasm-impaired until I get better.


kimi,

Not a problem...I've misread a post or two in my time as well.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> My condo association has been a customer of Cablevision for almost 30 years and we get the family package for a steep discount, but this Tuesday Verizon FiOS will be making a pitch to a homeowners meeting to discuss FiOS and based on the resident response, the Board may consider dropping Cablevision.
> 
> I guess I'll have to start reading up on FiOS. For sure I won't drop DIRECTV, but I want to know if I can still get ClearQAM channels from FiOS to work in MediaCenter on my Vista HTPC, what kind of internet speeds I'd get (and at what cost) or if it'd just be DSL, and what Verizon charges for DVRs and installation. Even though I've peen paying for DIRECTV directly since 2003, I still have had a cable DVR all along since it only cost me an extra $10/month (above what I was already paying for cable as part of my common fees). Time to start researching ...


Just to answer some of your questions:

1) Yes, Verizon carries some channels in the clear. These include all locals (SD, HD, local access, digital subchannels) and music channels (Music Choice and Urge Radio). How easy it is to get it to work via MediaCenter - no idea. I've never done that.

2) FiOS internet is not DSL, if that's what you're asking. My experience has been on par with everyone else's on here - speed is consistent (no slow periods, no throttling, no download caps), and the service really is rock solid (1 outage in 3 1/2 years for me). In terms of speeds, they just upgraded their speed tiers. I think the lowest tier is now 15/5. If you bundle, though, you'll need to go with the speed tied into that bundle to get the discount (e.g. their latest Extreme HD triple play includes 25/15 internet).

3) Installation prices are generally waived for standard installs. If you go for more than 3 cable outlets, you will pay some money per outlet. There is an activation fee, but that's generally waived if you order on line.

4) Cost of their STBs, currently:

a) SD STB (non-DVR): $6/month.
b) HD STB (non-DVR: $10/month (unless you're in NY or Northern NJ, where the price is $6/month).
c) DVR (stand-alone): $16/month.
d) Home Media DVR (allows for multi-room viewing): $20/month.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

kimi said:


> Fortunately I've had exactly the opposite experience. I swapped between D* and F* on the same monitor and for several SD and HD channels, picture quality in my location was noticeably better. And I find the UI excellent - professional compared to the amateur D* UI.


Me too Kimi. I look at DirecTV's UI now and it looks so amaturish compared to FiOS'. People that switch from D* (and other services) just need to take some time to get used to it. It's different, but quite good.

Verizon is also reportedly working on a true-HD 16:9 interface.

If only they would increase DVR storage. I don't mind too much because my wife and I just manage our recordings more aggresively, but it really costs Verizon customers that they could otherwise pull from D* and E*.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

I live in the City of Philadelphia and have been a DirecTV subscriber for 9 years. If Fios is wired here I would reluctantly jump to Fios. Why? As a victim of the Philadelphia Comcast Loophole - I get very very few Flyers and Phillies games. So to get back Comcast Sporstnet I would go to Fios. I just can't stomach being a cable customer again.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> I just can't stomach being a cable customer again.


Hate to break it to you but Verizon Fios TV is a cable service. The FCC classifies it as cable TV and the technology Verizon uses is similar to what the cable companies use. Main difference is it's a pure fiber FTTH service rather than a HFC network like most traditional cable companies have. Now AT&T U-Verse, that's a totally different beast being an IP based service.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve Mehs said:


> Hate to break it to you but Verizon Fios TV is a cable service. The FCC classifies it as cable TV and the technology Verizon uses is similar to what the cable companies use. Main difference is it's a pure fiber FTTH service rather than a HFC network like most traditional cable companies have. Now AT&T U-Verse, that's a totally different beast being an IP based service.


I think he meant being a 'traditional' cable customer again. Even Verizon's latest slate of ads focus on cable vs. fios. Yes, technically it is cable, but there's more of a distinction between say Comcast and FiOS than just the FTTH vs. HFC. Verizon's system employes a pretty extensive amount of network connectivity for your home set-up. The fact that the guide data and VOD are IP-based, e.g., makes them pretty different from what Comcast does. Yes, the linear feeds are QAM, just like traditional cable, but their overall architecture does differ.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

Steve Mehs said:


> Hate to break it to you but Verizon Fios TV is a cable service. The FCC classifies it as cable TV and the technology Verizon uses is similar to what the cable companies use. Main difference is it's a pure fiber FTTH service rather than a HFC network like most traditional cable companies have. Now AT&T U-Verse, that's a totally different beast being an IP based service.


I prefer to think of it as fiber-optic TV. That way I sleep better at night.

I could also quibble that Verizon is not a cable company, it's a telephone company. So I would call it telco TV rather than cable TV.

But seriously, I only care about one thing and that is the QUALITY of my TV service, and FiOS is aces in my book.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

jpl said:


> Just to answer some of your questions:
> 
> 1) Yes, Verizon carries some channels in the clear. These include all locals (SD, HD, local access, digital subchannels) and music channels (Music Choice and Urge Radio). How easy it is to get it to work via MediaCenter - no idea. I've never done that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the responses jpl! I was out walking my dog today and ran into a board member and we chatted about the upcoming meeting with Verizon. It seems that Verizon is willing to run FiOS for free and will pay us $75K on top of that ... but we MUST commit to at least 90% (of over 500 units) signing on. Since it took almost 2 years to get only 66% approving a loan to fix 30-year old leaky roofs, I don't have high hopes we'll have a successful meeting Tuesday. Time will tell ...


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> The fact that the guide data and VOD are IP-based,


My cabe is IP based that way too. Each cable box is assigned an IP address from Time Warner, the IP can be viewed by playing around in the hidden diagnostic menus on the cable box. For VOD, the cable box sends out a request to the TW servers and a few seconds later the VOD content start playing. I can't imagine Comcast is much different



> I could also quibble that Verizon is not a cable company, it's a telephone company.


But they are providing a cable TV type of service. In the eyes of the government they are offering a cable service and are subject to the same rules and regulations. But yes Verizon is still a telco. Just like how cable companies offer phone service. Comcast and Time Warner are still cable companies, even though they are quickly becoming some of the two largest phone providers in the country.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve Mehs said:


> My cabe is IP based that way too. Each cable box is assigned an IP address from Time Warner, the IP can be viewed by playing around in the hidden diagnostic menus on the cable box. For VOD, the cable box sends out a request to the TW servers and a few seconds later the VOD content start playing. I can't imagine Comcast is much different


Actually, yes, Comcast is different. They're pure QAM - with their guide data and VOD. They don't run IP for any of their video stuff. How do I know? Because for a while Verizon offered up free 'digital adapters' for customers when they shut off their analog feeds. Those digital adapters were actually Motorola DCT700 STBs. Verizon called them 'digital adapters' because they don't support guide data, VOD or widgets over FiOS. But this is the same box that Comcast used extensively in this area for basic digital customers - including quite a few that I know - and it most definitely supports guide data and VOD for those Comcast customers. If you look up the specs on the box, you'll see that it does support guide data and VOD... but as QAM only (which is why I couldn't get guide data or VOD on my DCT700). Comcast was forced to give up offering the box when the seperable security requirement went into effect 2 years ago. My overall point is that it was pretty well understood what the poster meant. No offense, but it sounded like you were just splitting hairs.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Steve Mehs said:


> Hate to break it to you but Verizon Fios TV is a cable service.


Sort of. The FCC have defined them as such, but they have been given temporary waivers for some of the things required for cable.

Plus, they are not a member of CableLabs, so the cable companies don't think Verizon is a cable company.

Finally, who cares? Anything is better than traditional cable service.


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> Thanks for the responses jpl! I was out walking my dog today and ran into a board member and we chatted about the upcoming meeting with Verizon. It seems that Verizon is willing to run FiOS for free and will pay us $75K on top of that ... but we MUST commit to at least 90% (of over 500 units) signing on. Since it took almost 2 years to get only 66% approving a loan to fix 30-year old leaky roofs, I don't have high hopes we'll have a successful meeting Tuesday. Time will tell ...


Verizon always runs FIOS for free, why would they charge the building? The board has 2 agreements to sign, a right-of-way agreement (how they'll bring the fiber into the units) & a marketing agreement. Usually with the marketing agreement, depending on what the board allows Verizon to do, door tags or setting up a stand in the lobby, the board gets btwn $50-$75/unit. No idea where the commit to 90% signing on and why you guys are asking for $75K?? Seems nuts & I haven't seen that anywhere, even in my brother's bldg in NYC, which has probably over 500 units. I have dealt with Verizon myself, getting the condo bldg I live in wired years ago, since I was sick of Cablevision. Now every unit owner has a choice in our building of either Cablevision or FIOS. Regardless, best of luck and hope the board members are not trying for a cash grab from Verizon, won't work & no choice for the unit owners.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

cforrest said:


> Verizon always runs FIOS for free, why would they charge the building? The board has 2 agreements to sign, a right-of-way agreement (how they'll bring the fiber into the units) & a marketing agreement. Usually with the marketing agreement, depending on what the board allows Verizon to do, door tags or setting up a stand in the lobby, the board gets btwn $50-$75/unit. No idea where the commit to 90% signing on and why you guys are asking for $75K?? Seems nuts & I haven't seen that anywhere, even in my brother's bldg in NYC, which has probably over 500 units. I have dealt with Verizon myself, getting the condo bldg I live in wired years ago, since I was sick of Cablevision. Now every unit owner has a choice in our building of either Cablevision or FIOS. Regardless, best of luck and hope the board members are not trying for a cash grab from Verizon, won't work & no choice for the unit owners.


I never said the Association was asking for $75K, I said they [Verizon] would pay us that. Verizon threw that in as in incentive, as well as the 90% buy-in. We are not a single building, though, we are over 500 total units in over 55 buildings, with between 4 and 8 units per building. I forget how many square miles we cover, but we're big and as private property have always had to pay for upgrades and even maintenance. When a water main burst a few years ago, that required a special assessment to each homeowner, so most of us expected we'd have to pay Verizon to come into the community. Instead, they are actively seeking us out and I have a feeling we'll be sticking with Cablevision and use the Verizon offer to get a better contract when the CV contract expires in 2011...


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

Since VZ offered it, I would take the money, but take less money & have them lower the buy-in rate or do away with it. Why is it that your condo can't have both services? Exclusive agreements were ruled void by FCC anyway. Makes no sense to lock the whole property to one provider IMO. Regardless, best of luck with it.


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

cforrest said:


> Since VZ offered it, I would take the money, but take less money & have them lower the buy-in rate or do away with it. Why is it that your condo can't have both services? Exclusive agreements were ruled void by FCC anyway. Makes no sense to lock the whole property to one provider IMO. Regardless, best of luck with it.


I just came back from the meeting a short while ago. Our condo bylaws and declarations mandate that the Association provides "cable service", so it would require 80% majority vote to drop the provision entirely OR to switch to use Verizon over Cablevision. However, we can also keep Cablevision AND subscirbe individually to Verizon FiOS if we wanted.

The offer: They will pay $150/unit if we sign an exclusivity contract or $75/unit for non-exclusivity contract (marketing exclusivity, not provider exclusivity) if 90% of the units agree to let Verizon build a "conduit path" to each unit. That's the whole shebang ...

Once they get the path in place, then it's up to each individual homeowner to choose to sign-up for FiOS, or to wait until the Cablevision contract runs out and see if 80% of the community elects to negotiate a discounted base service with Verizon, dropping Cablevision.

I'm hoping we can do this, as they are claiming I can get dedicated internet speeds, the phone service AND bundle DIRECTV with that and get triple-play rates**.. so I can have my FiOS and ... eat it too! 

**As an existing DIRECTV customer I don't know if I'd qualify, but it's worth a look...


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## DawgLink (Nov 5, 2006)

Like some of you all, I am in an MDU apartment complex with DirecTV and we have NO HD. Yes, no HD....I use an antenna to get locals which fits me fine. Internet is a mess as the MDU group gives TERRIBLE internet service and Verizon DSL gives MAX 3mbs DSL which suits me fine but is like...5x less then my last internet service provider.

I bring this up here because the Apartment Manager has told us that a FiOS agreement is coming soon.

I am VERY excited


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Drew, I think you might be splitting a hair that the association isn't. Verizon FIOSTV comes over a wire, so by their definition, wouldn't that be considered "cable service?" 

You and I can agree here that FIOSTV is a QAM-over-fiber solution and not a traditional cable service, but are the people in your condo so picky?


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## Drew2k (Aug 16, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Drew, I think you might be splitting a hair that the association isn't. Verizon FIOSTV comes over a wire, so by their definition, wouldn't that be considered "cable service?"
> 
> You and I can agree here that FIOSTV is a QAM-over-fiber solution and not a traditional cable service, but are the people in your condo so picky?


I actually agree with you Stuart. The Bylaw would stand as being met with either FiOS or Cablevision as the provider, but the problem is that the Board has said they can't just drop Cablevision to switch to FiOS without putting it up for a community vote (thus the 80%), and we can't drop the Bylaw without the 80% vote either. I think they are unwilling to switch from Cablevision to Verizon without community input because so many folks use Cablevision for internet and voice and get discounts, so it would be some upheaval to suddenly have Cablevision TV service yanked without community approval, as those discounts would disappear.

On top of that, because installation of the "conduit path" requires access to each unit and it has to be coordinated so that all 8 units in a building are serviced the same day, the Board has decided that even continuing to pursue a FiOS option has to be put up for community vote, as if enough people are not willing to let the "conduit path" be installed then Verizon will walk.

I volunteered to be on a homeowner task force putting together a Q&A on the offer, as I'm of the opinion this adds value to the community as we'd be pre-wired for FiOS, Cable and in many cases, DIRECTV, and we'd have the ability to shop between Cablevision and Verizon for the better package/rates for internet and phone. Bundling DIRECTV with Verizon is also a plus for several of the homeowners here, so to me it's a win-win and should not be summarily dismissed without a comprehensive presentation to the homeowners. Look at me ... suddenly I'm a community activist!


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

Drew2k said:


> However, we can also keep Cablevision AND subscirbe individually to Verizon FiOS if we wanted.
> 
> The offer: They will pay $150/unit if we sign an exclusivity contract or $75/unit for non-exclusivity contract (marketing exclusivity, not provider exclusivity) if 90% of the units agree to let Verizon build a "conduit path" to each unit. That's the whole shebang ...


That's similar to what they did in my daughter's co-op complex last year (with hundreds of apartments). Cablevision was already installed in each building. Verizon paid some amount of money to come in and put a FIOS connection port in every apartment. Each apartment is now free to subscribe to either service. (The existing Cablevision service was not subsidized at all by the monthly maintenance.)

My daughter was going to switch to FIOS, but when she called Cablevision, their retention folks agreed to lower her monthly charges to match Verizon "triple-play" pricing, so she stayed with them.


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## cforrest (Jan 20, 2007)

Drew2k said:


> I just came back from the meeting a short while ago. Our condo bylaws and declarations mandate that the Association provides "cable service", so it would require 80% majority vote to drop the provision entirely OR to switch to use Verizon over Cablevision. However, we can also keep Cablevision AND subscirbe individually to Verizon FiOS if we wanted.
> 
> The offer: They will pay $150/unit if we sign an exclusivity contract or $75/unit for non-exclusivity contract (marketing exclusivity, not provider exclusivity) if 90% of the units agree to let Verizon build a "conduit path" to each unit. That's the whole shebang ...
> 
> ...


Glad to hear, hope they allow Verizon in so unit owners can decide if they want FIOS on their own or not. As far bundling FIOS internet and Phone with Directv, not going to happen if your local franchise authority has approved TV to be offered by Verizon. You can do what I did, if you like, put Directv on the Verizon bill and get $6 off per month. I have FIOS triple play and Directv all on one bill. Happy to be able to kick Cablevision out of my unit completely. In any event, best of luck Drew.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

I'm in the customer service biz & 1 thing is 4 sure, D* has better customer service than Verizon. The Verizon salesperson said, after having upgraded from the FiOS Double Freedom, If I wasn't completely satisfied with the FiOS Triple Play that I could cancel within 15-days without penalty & revert back to my original FiOS Double Freedom package. Well we weren't happy w/the Triple and when i called to revert back & they pulled the plug on my internet bandwidth. Prior to the upgrade i was @ 20/5 for my internet, now they say that speed is no longer available and they put me @ the current package speed, which is 15/5. Not that i ever get the full bandwidth potential on either my desktop or laptop and i've optimized both for maximum bandwidth. It's just the principle of the thing & they failed to deliver yet again on their promises.

They also started a new 1 year agreement from the day I reverted back to the FiOS Double, what a joke............not that we're giving up the FiOS phone/internet anytime soon, but again not as originally promised. One time a ways back we had contemplated removing the phone, but they said if we did our internet price would go up $10(obviously removing the bundle we lost the discount). The kicker was if we pulled the plug on the phone service we could only pay for FiOS internet, via recurring automatic debit of our bank account. Again, not very customer friendly IMO.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

J D Power shows in all areas that have Verizon FiOS, the Customer satisfaction in higher than DirecTV in all cases. The only service rated higher by customers was ATT U-verse, whcih topped all regions it was available. Texasmoose's opinion is not the typical opinion. even for being in the "customer service" industry.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2008204.pdf


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

My only comment on the customer service front for FIOS... is that they are promising this free netbook to people who sign up for different FIOS packages, but no one can tell me exactly what packages qualify. I have FIOS phone and internet and some folks at Verizon say that will qualify, some say that I wasn't a new verizon customer (having POTS before) so I don't qualify, some say that only having phone, internet AND TV qualifies, and some say that I qualify for a $99 netbook. 

The bottom line is everyone agrees that I will, or will not, get some sort of information in my bill in 2-3 months, and whatever that is, will be the final answer. Really?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> My only comment on the customer service front for FIOS... is that they are promising this free netbook to people who sign up for different FIOS packages, but no one can tell me exactly what packages qualify. I have FIOS phone and internet and some folks at Verizon say that will qualify, some say that I wasn't a new verizon customer (having POTS before) so I don't qualify, some say that only having phone, internet AND TV qualifies, and some say that I qualify for a $99 netbook.
> 
> The bottom line is everyone agrees that I will, or will not, get some sort of information in my bill in 2-3 months, and whatever that is, will be the final answer. Really?


Yeah, that's my biggest beef with Verizon. It's like two different companies with regard to this. Their techs are really good - all those who I've dealt with were all top-notch... Yeah, you get your share of bone-heads in customer service in answering technical questions, but overall, on the technical side of things, they're really good.

On the billing side... well, that's another story. I'm convinced that that's why they're not higher on that JD Power & Assoc. rating. I will say this - they have improved. Their bill is at least readable now (in the past it was a mishmash of line items - and triple play discounts were far from obvious - instead of getting one big discount on the bill, you'd get lots of tiny discounts all over the place - rebates, if you will, on various fees that you pay), and they seem to be having fewer billing issues overall. They've also more standardized their billing cycles, which helps. In the past your TV, internet, phone, and cell could all be on different cycles, even if they were all on one bill.

But their billing customer service still leaves much to be desired. I had one question about one bill that I had. I believed I knew the answer and just wanted confirmation. I called, and got someone who was very clueless. She asked 'did I answer your question?' I said 'well, to be totally honest... no, you didn't... but that's ok... thanks for trying.' I hung up, and went to the web - I did an on-line chat with one of their reps, and got the answer I was looking for very quickly. Their on-line reps seem to have more on the ball with this kind of information, so now my first course is to do the on-line chat with them. They have improved... but they still have a ways to go on this front.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

I believe I read somewhere in the FCC paperwork that if you can get service that is cheaper than cable, fios,etc., they have to let you get the cheaper service. No-one can force you to use a more expensive service. Will have to read again when I get home.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

LinkNuc said:


> J D Power shows in all areas that have Verizon FiOS, the Customer satisfaction in higher than DirecTV in all cases. The only service rated higher by customers was ATT U-verse, whcih topped all regions it was available. Texasmoose's opinion is not the typical opinion. even for being in the "customer service" industry.
> 
> http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2008204.pdf


I'm a FiOS TV customer and I can unequivocally say that it is the best TV service that I've ever had, so in principle I agree with you LinkNuc. However customer satisfaction is not purely a function of customer service, it's a function of the entire user experience.

The truth is that Verizon's customer service is truly horrible. Their billing is also terrible. Fortunately, I rarely have to contact them so it doesn't detract signifigantly from my overall experience.


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## LinkNuc (Jul 4, 2007)

Actually if you break down the surveys into its Cutomer Serivce Ratings, FiOS is #1in the East, in a tie for #2 in South and #2 Tied for #2 in the West. The customers have spoken.

I personally think the only worse CS I got than D* is Comcast. But to be honest I've hade Comcrap, D* E* and TWC, they all suck. I am hoping that Verizon finished my complex becasue everyone around me has fiOS and it is awesome

http://www.jdpower.com/telecom/ratings/television-service-ratings


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## kd3yt1 (Mar 25, 2008)

Would I switch - in a second!!

I am not a sports fan so NFL ST does not even interest me and most important - I am sick of the slow guide and slow switching channels. It will be while though here, as I live in a rural area, and of course we will be one of the last to get FIOS.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

LinkNuc said:


> Actually if you break down the surveys into its Cutomer Serivce Ratings, FiOS is #1in the East, in a tie for #2 in South and #2 Tied for #2 in the West. The customers have spoken.
> 
> I personally think the only worse CS I got than D* is Comcast. But to be honest I've hade Comcrap, D* E* and TWC, they all suck. I am hoping that Verizon finished my complex becasue everyone around me has fiOS and it is awesomehttp://www.jdpower.com/telecom/ratings/television-service-ratings


I can't get FiOS, but will someday be able to get U-verse. What really surprised me is that U-verse is #1 in 3 regions and not listed in the fourth. Also, Verizon FiOS is actually alone in second place when you look at the graphs. Link: Ratings - Article & Graph

Even in the other ratings I have seen about D* being #1, the % of people that are happy is around 70%. So what does that tell you about any of the providers support, its not great. Link: Ratings


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

LinkNuc said:


> Actually if you break down the surveys into its Cutomer Serivce Ratings, FiOS is #1in the East, in a tie for #2 in South and #2 Tied for #2 in the West. The customers have spoken.
> 
> I personally think the only worse CS I got than D* is Comcast. But to be honest I've hade Comcrap, D* E* and TWC, they all suck. I am hoping that Verizon finished my complex becasue everyone around me has fiOS and it is awesome
> 
> http://www.jdpower.com/telecom/ratings/television-service-ratings


Huh, maybe they ALL suck. 

Seriously though, D*'s and E*'s customer service were much better in my opinion. With them I always got someone that could help me right off the bat. With Verizon I have to be passed around to multiple people. And some of their answers have been ludicrous.

But still, I love FiOS.


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## boxster99t (Mar 9, 2008)

kd3yt1 said:


> Would I switch - in a second!!
> 
> I am not a sports fan so NFL ST does not even interest me and most important - I am sick of the slow guide and slow switching channels. It will be while though here, as I live in a rural area, and of course we will be one of the last to get FIOS.


The thing is, Fios' DVR is usually rated #3 behind Dish and Directv. It was a big reason why I did not switch to Fios 18 months ago. Plus, unless there's a way to hang an external drive on Fios unit, the capacity is very small. I'm spoiled with 1TB ESATA drives hanging off each of my DVR's. 

But I did consider Fios--it's been in my neighborhood for years, as we were in one of the early rollout areas. If DVR's are not important to you, most folks I've talked to like Fios from a picture quality standpoint.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

boxster99t said:


> The thing is, Fios' DVR is usually rated #3 behind Dish and Directv. It was a big reason why I did not switch to Fios 18 months ago. Plus, unless there's a way to hang an external drive on Fios unit, the capacity is very small. I'm spoiled with 1TB ESATA drives hanging off each of my DVR's.
> 
> But I did consider Fios--it's been in my neighborhood for years, as we were in one of the early rollout areas. If DVR's are not important to you, most folks I've talked to like Fios from a picture quality standpoint.


With FiOS, you could get a Moxi with 500 GB internal storage and add *6 TB* of external storage.


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

LinkNuc said:


> Actually if you break down the surveys into its Cutomer Serivce Ratings, FiOS is #1in the East, in a tie for #2 in South and #2 Tied for #2 in the West. The customers have spoken.
> 
> I personally think the only worse CS I got than D* is Comcast. But to be honest I've hade Comcrap, D* E* and TWC, they all suck. I am hoping that Verizon finished my complex becasue everyone around me has fiOS and it is awesome
> 
> http://www.jdpower.com/telecom/ratings/television-service-ratings


You really think this survey(not a recent one @ that) is indicative of customers' sentiment with various platforms of the broadcast industry?


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## texasmoose (May 25, 2007)

With all the latest technology available the best FiOS can offer is an archaic HD DVR with no option for an external HD solution and no native pass through?!?!?! Some of their vendors provide them with mpeg 4 encoded movies, of which they have to re-encode to Mpeg 2 format??!?! Not very efficient to say the least. Maybe when they get these 'Cisco' HD DVRs(by the end of the year one Verizon tech told me) they'll truly be a force to be reckoned with and lets hope by then they'll have better firmware upgrade support implementation. In that regard, D* is 2nd to none.............


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

texasmoose said:


> You really think this survey(not a recent one @ that) is indicative of customers' sentiment with various platforms of the broadcast industry?


2008 is an old survey? The thing is, this isn't the only survey showing FiOS on top. Consumer Reports showed the same thing (based off of consumer surveys) - despite the fact that they showed horrible ratings for their billing. There was another satisfaction survey that showed the same thing (trying to remember who conducted it). Look, DirecTV is a great service - they always come in at or near the top... and their customer growth is indicative of that. I don't think anyone here is disparaging that. But to ignore a survey that's as well respected as JD Power & Associates is silly. Especially since the survey that DirecTV crows about (ACSI) doesn't include U-Verse or FiOS in its rankings. I don't begrudge DirecTV doing that - it's called marketing. They're going to go with the results that put them in the best light. But there really is no denying how customers view services like U-Verse and FiOS. Are they everyone's cup of tea? Of course not. Will those ratings last? Who knows - time will tell.


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## wesmills (Apr 7, 2003)

I would switch and have switched. DirecTV doesn't let me use TiVo with their HD service; FiOS does. (Yes, we're one of _those_ households :lol Having never seen DirecTV's HD I can't comment on relative picture quality, but I can say that my initial contacts with Verizon--along with the install--went quite smooth. Then again, I've never had a problem with DirecTV either. When I got DirecTV, self-install or hiring a local installer was what everybody did so I nicely avoided all the install/setup problems people report here. Basically, we switched because we wanted TiVo _and_ HD, so that meant FiOS TV. (Time Warner hasn't wired our address yet, but, yeah...)

In other news, the landlord in our new place is awesome. Not only does he aggressively not care if we have a dish, he lets us mount them (yes, with threaded fasteners and everything) on the roof. When he was out supervising the installation of a ladder to the roof, he said "I'm having it put up for if we need to do maintenance on the A/C or if any of you would like to have a dish or antenna."


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

Some parts of this thread are funny. I can say that the PQ out of my fios and now tivo boxes are noticeably superior to what I got out of the D* Boxes. Comparing the two SD boxes, D* just isn't in the same league as FIOS. We've had FIOS for only 3 days, and already we appreciate the guide speed and layout so much that there is no way we are going to continue with D*. Even comparing the HD non-DVR boxes head to head, the FIOS box is dramatically better to use. Comparing the HR22 to the TIVO HD is just unfair - the HR22 works like a windows 98 computer compared to, well, anything you can buy today from microsoft or apple. 

It's been fun being here with you guys as a D* customer, but my relationship with D* is going to end now. D* was fine, far better than the cable alternative in my area, but FIOS is just a heck of a lot better (because it is at least a little better in so many ways) than D* that it just doesn't make sense in my situation to choose D* over FIOS. 

I have to say that the inability to own my own DVR and have control over my own equipment is a significant factor driving me from D*. If the D* DVR wasn't crap, like every other DVR box I've seen from a provider, it would likely be a different story (I have not and will not be testing out the FIOS DVR). 

Good luck everyone.


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

kimi said:


> Some parts of this thread are funny. I can say that the PQ out of my fios and now tivo boxes are noticeably superior to what I got out of the D* Boxes. Comparing the two SD boxes, D* just isn't in the same league as FIOS. We've had FIOS for only 3 days, and already we appreciate the guide speed and layout so much that there is no way we are going to continue with D*. Even comparing the HD non-DVR boxes head to head, the FIOS box is dramatically better to use. Comparing the HR22 to the TIVO HD is just unfair - the HR22 works like a windows 98 computer compared to, well, anything you can buy today from microsoft or apple.
> 
> It's been fun being here with you guys as a D* customer, but my relationship with D* is going to end now. D* was fine, far better than the cable alternative in my area, but FIOS is just a heck of a lot better (because it is at least a little better in so many ways) than D* that it just doesn't make sense in my situation to choose D* over FIOS.
> 
> ...


Tell 'em like it is Kimi!


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

kimi said:


> Comparing the HR22 to the TIVO HD is just unfair - the HR22 works like a windows 98 computer compared to, well, anything you can buy today from microsoft or apple.
> 
> FIOS is just a heck of a lot better (because it is at least a little better in so many ways) than D* that it just doesn't make sense in my situation to choose D* over FIOS.
> 
> ...


Enjoy! It sounds like you have picked the best alternative for you and I don't question why you are switching. That's why competition is good, it pushes all providers to get better.

I have to agree with you that the HR DVR is not my favorite part of the D* package. What I enjoy about D* is the sports packages they provide, because they have the most games in HD. That's why D* is my favorite provider! Couldn't switch to FiOS, U-verse or cable, until they can offer a similar product.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Reaper said:


> Tell 'em like it is Kimi!


As I mentioned in my prior post, everyone picks a provider for a reason. Nobody has to tell us like it is. Since they aren't even available for most of us and they lack the sports programming many of us desire, a fast nice looking interface is meaningless.

And while you were at it, why didn't you "tell Kimi like it is" on your thoughts about his Tivo DVR's?



Reaper said:


> Tivo and Moxi are the alternatives to the FiOS DVR. I don't find the Tivo option particularly attractive, I hate the idiot-proof and dated interface, the in-menu ads, and the monthly subscription fees. plus I absolutely despised the DirecTivo when I had it. But that's a matter of taste, isn't it?


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

RACJ2 said:


> As I mentioned in my prior post, everyone picks a provider for a reason. Nobody has to tell us like it is. Since they aren't even available for most of us and they lack the sports programming many of us desire, a fast nice looking interface is meaningless.
> 
> And while you were at it, why didn't you "tell Kimi like it is" on your thoughts about her Tivo DVR's?


Whoa, no offense intended there RACJ2 but it's pretty clear to me at least that while DirecTV had the best technology in terms of delivering TV service for years, they no longer do. To each their own though.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

Reaper said:


> Whoa, no offense intended there RACJ2 but it's pretty clear to me at least that while DirecTV had the best technology in terms of delivering TV service for years, they no longer do. To each their own though.


I understand that the HRxx is not the best, but we'll wait to see what RVU does for D*. Every provider has their pluses and minuses. The most important things in choosing a provider are availability, program content, cost and reliability. I understand that you are both happy with FiOS and as I said before, competition makes things better for everyone. Just look all the HD channels the TW cable customers in NYC now have, since FiOS became available in that area.


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## DodgerKing (Apr 28, 2008)

FiOS is in my area and I have been thinking about switching, but there is one reason I wont...The very reason I am using DirecTV as we speak...I cannot take FiOS with me. 

I am currently up at our place in Mammoth Lakes (were it is currently snowing btw---yes, snowing in August) watching my DirecTV, which we bring with us when we come up here.


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## kimi (Mar 12, 2008)

RACJ2 said:


> A
> And while you were at it, why didn't you "tell Kimi like it is" on your thoughts about her Tivo DVR's?


LOL. Kimi is a finnish, _male_ name. =)

Google Kimi Raikkonen.


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## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

My answer to this question would have been a resounding "no" up until this morning, when I read the comments made by DirecTV's interim CEO about no more movie channels.

I'll keep some kind of DirecTV package so I can get Sunday Ticket, and Fios will not be here in my lifetime. But if it were, it very well could get a big chunk of my TV dollars.


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## RACJ2 (Aug 2, 2008)

kimi said:


> LOL. Kimi is a finnish, _male_ name. =)
> 
> Google Kimi Raikkonen.


Ooops, I apologize... I'll correct that post.


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## dreadlk (Sep 18, 2007)

Would I drop D* for FIOS?
 That's like asking would I Drop my wife and instead have the Top three women in Miss America sleeping in my bed every night 
Tough choice


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## celticpride (Sep 6, 2006)

If verizon had NBA league pass i would switch and get me a tivo,of course directv might have their tivo before verizon gets the nba league pass,so i might just stay with directv.


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## Grydlok (Mar 31, 2007)

I thought this was the same thread. 
I made the switch but I still have my D account.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

Reaper said:


> I do know that Verizon is suing Cablevision for the ability to carry MSG HD. This is the Dolan's fault, not Verizon's.


I was at the county fair today (or is it yesterday now) and they were pushing Fios pretty hard. Some Verizon sales dweeb tried to give me literature on the service, I said do you have MSG HD, the guy says no and starts to babble on how the owners of MSG are being unfair. BS! This is America, Cablevision shouldn't have to offer their channel to the competition, and quite frankly they were stupid for coming to terms with DirecTV.

Should KFC be forced to sell their secret recipe to Boston Market? If you owned a Pizza Shop and created a unique pizza or wing sauce that became an instant hit, should you be forced to sell your recipe to every pizza joint in the country? The Dolans own the channel, they should have every right to say who gets to carry it and who doesn't, and really, on what planet does it make sense to give your competition your golden egg? This is the reason why I pray to God Comcast Sports Net Philly is NEVER lit up on E* or D*.

And I do find it ironic how Verizon is *****ing about big bad Cablevision. Not so much fun when they're not the ones in control and the shoe is on the other foot. Who is Verizon? A company that has been around for 9 years as end result of the merger between Bell Atlantic and GTE. Who was Bell Atlantic? One of the (and later on 2 of them after they bought out NYNEX) 7 RBOCs that were split off from the original AT&T. Really a company whose roots can be directly traced to the largest monopoly in American history has no room to talk. Verizon can shut the hell up as they continue to bleed POTS customers and cry to the government when they had a hand in screwing the American public over for nearly a century as AT&T and they still do it today under the name Verizon Communications.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve Mehs said:


> I was at the county fair today (or is it yesterday now) and they were pushing Fios pretty hard. Some Verizon sales dweeb tried to give me literature on the service, I said do you have MSG HD, the guy says no and starts to babble on how the owners of MSG are being unfair. BS! This is America, Cablevision shouldn't have to offer their channel to the competition, and quite frankly they were stupid for coming to terms with DirecTV.
> 
> Should KFC be forced to sell their secret recipe to Boston Market? If you owned a Pizza Shop and created a unique pizza or wing sauce that became an instant hit, should you be forced to sell your recipe to every pizza joint in the country? The Dolans own the channel, they should have every right to say who gets to carry it and who doesn't, and really, on what planet does it make sense to give your competition your golden egg? This is the reason why I pray to God Comcast Sports Net Philly is NEVER lit up on E* or D*.
> 
> And I do find it ironic how Verizon is *****ing about big bad Cablevision. Not so much fun when they're not the ones in control and the shoe is on the other foot. Who is Verizon? A company that has been around for 9 years as end result of the merger between Bell Atlantic and GTE. Who was Bell Atlantic? One of the (and later on 2 of them after they bought out NYNEX) 7 RBOCs that were split off from the original AT&T. Really a company whose roots can be directly traced to the largest monopoly in American history has no room to talk. Verizon can shut the hell up as they continue to bleed POTS customers and cry to the government when they had a hand in screwing the American public over for nearly a century as AT&T and they still do it today under the name Verizon Communications.


So.... when News Corp owned DirecTV, it would have been ok for them to withhold all the Fox suite of channels from CableVision? You would have been ok with that, right? Or maybe TWC should be able to withhold all the Time Warner channels. I'm sure you would be fine with that too, right? Verizon's take is that they're looking for some consistency in the regulations.

This is NOT the same as Pizza Hut not selling their pizza to a competitor. The FCC regs on this issue come down to handling the case of: what do you do when one company owns both a channel, and the means for distributing that channel? THAT'S what the FCC regs are designed to address.

I know you have a personal axe to grind against Verizon, but just echoing the lines that CableVision has used (that a company the size of Verizon doesn't need help in terms of competition) doesn't make them any more valid.

Besides, what Verizon is doing would, if successful, be a boon to many people on this forum. They're essentially asking the FCC (if you read what Verizon's pushing for) to effectively get rid of the terrestrial loophole. It's not just Verizon who would benefit. So would DirecTV, Dish, and any other cable system which is being denied RSNs because of that loophole.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

> So.... when News Corp owned DirecTV, it would have been ok for them to withhold all the Fox suite of channels from CableVision? You would have been ok with that, right? Or maybe TWC should be able to withhold all the Time Warner channels. I'm sure you would be fine with that too, right? Verizon's take is that they're looking for some consistency in the regulations.


As long as it didn't violate any current contracts, I would not see a problem with it. But News Corp owned D* for such a short time I don't think many contract renewals came up during their ownership. And you've got plenty of conspiracy theorists who already think Time Warner is purposely withholding the additional Cinemax channels from satellite, even though Time Warner Cable is split off from Time Warner Inc. And deep in my heart I secretly hope they are. The only consistency there should be is if I don't want to sell you something, I should have every right to refuse you service. That's what it boils down to.



> This is NOT the same as Pizza Hut not selling their pizza to a competitor. The FCC regs on this issue come down to handling the case of: what do you do when one company owns both a channel, and the means for distributing that channel? THAT'S what the FCC regs are designed to address.


It sure is hell the same thing. If I owned a pizzeria I'd own the channel (sauce) and the means of distributing that channel (the pizza shop), I don't need or want a government origination to interfere with my business by telling me I need to open it up to the competition.



> I know you have a personal axe to grind against Verizon, but just echoing the lines that CableVision has used (that a company the size of Verizon doesn't need help in terms of competition) doesn't make them any more valid.


Keeping a leg up on your competition is not valid enough?



> Besides, what Verizon is doing would, if successful, be a boon to many people on this forum. They're essentially asking the FCC (if you read what Verizon's pushing for) to effectively get rid of the terrestrial loophole. It's not just Verizon who would benefit. So would DirecTV, Dish, and any other cable system which is being denied RSNs because of that loophole.


No, it would be a terrible tragedy, that yet again the government would interfere with free enterprise. This is a bigger issue then a RSN being offered on Verizon's glorified cable service, it's about American business as a whole. The pigs at Verizon just don't like the fact they're the ones on the opposite side of the fence this time, it serves them right, what comes around goes around.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

They're not refusing to sell to those companies they will if they put in a fiber uplink and they wouldn't have a choice. What they're doing is making it more cost ineffective for their competition not outright refusing. DirecTV has the NFLST as exclusive so it's no different. They should let the markets sort themself out in this aspect. It's been ok so far. If they do force the loophole to be closed all they have to do is ask ESPN pricing and everyone will balk at it. You can't force them to provide it to others if they don't want to.


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## Steve Mehs (Mar 21, 2002)

As much as I also dislike DirecTV, and think what they've done with the pricing of Sunday Ticket is ridiculous, there is a difference. Sunday Ticket was opened up to all providers, every MSO had the opportunity to get Sunday Ticket, but they didn't want to pay. DirecTV outbid the competition and therefore has exclusivity.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

Shades228 said:


> They're not refusing to sell to those companies they will if they put in a fiber uplink and they wouldn't have a choice. What they're doing is making it more cost ineffective for their competition not outright refusing. DirecTV has the NFLST as exclusive so it's no different. They should let the markets sort themself out in this aspect. It's been ok so far. If they do force the loophole to be closed all they have to do is ask ESPN pricing and everyone will balk at it. You can't force them to provide it to others if they don't want to.


So what you're saying is that Verizon could have MSGHD if they wanted to, but V* doesn't want to spend the money to run fiber?

Well, D* ran fiber and they have MSGHD now, so if V* wants it that bad, then they need to spend the money.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Steve Mehs said:


> As much as I also dislike DirecTV, and think what they've done with the pricing of Sunday Ticket is ridiculous, there is a difference. Sunday Ticket was opened up to all providers, every MSO had the opportunity to get Sunday Ticket, but they didn't want to pay. DirecTV outbid the competition and therefore has exclusivity.


The teams that the RSN represents did the same thing they opened up bids to see who would pay them the most. However the market was much smaller when the foot got in the door. Now they just renew that contract with vigor because they know it's what is keeping a large amount of their male customer base.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

TheRatPatrol said:


> So what you're saying is that Verizon could have MSGHD if they wanted to, but V* doesn't want to spend the money to run fiber?
> 
> Well, D* ran fiber and they have MSGHD now, so if V* wants it that bad, then they need to spend the money.


I don't believe that's correct. Verizon, as far as I know, hasn't balked at running fiber. They did it here in Philly to get CSN Philly.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Steve Mehs said:


> As long as it didn't violate any current contracts, I would not see a problem with it. But News Corp owned D* for such a short time I don't think many contract renewals came up during their ownership. And you've got plenty of conspiracy theorists who already think Time Warner is purposely withholding the additional Cinemax channels from satellite, even though Time Warner Cable is split off from Time Warner Inc. And deep in my heart I secretly hope they are. The only consistency there should be is if I don't want to sell you something, I should have every right to refuse you service. That's what it boils down to.
> 
> It sure is hell the same thing. If I owned a pizzeria I'd own the channel (sauce) and the means of distributing that channel (the pizza shop), I don't need or want a government origination to interfere with my business by telling me I need to open it up to the competition.
> 
> ...


Your example is flawed. The pizza shop example doesn't hold here because in this case you're talking about a fixed product. Yeah, Verizon could start their own RSN for NY, but they couldn't carry any of the local sports teams. Those sports teams are a fixed asset, and one that a community spends alot of money on.

Let's use a somewhat different example. Let's say your town only allows ONE mall from which a pizza place can operate. You own said mall. I want to come in and set up shop, but you say 'too bad... I'm going to have the only pizzaria available in that mall.' I'm effectively prohibited from competing against you. That's the difference here. Professional sports teams have local franchises. They are a part of the community. The community spends alot of money on them. To give one company exclusive access to those franchises is what's at issue here. This is totally different than you and I having competing pizza shops. In my example you effectively stop any competition. I'm about as much of a free market guy as you can get - the example you used doesn't hold.


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## pinkertonfloyd (Jun 5, 2002)

Well, I dropped D* today for Surewest IPTV... so far I like the Surewest Service... the guide is about 100 times faster, the picture quality seems to be good. (no stutters ont eh local channels), and the DVR seems fine (it's 160GB, but they're MPEG4, so it doesn't do much worse than the HR20 I had with DTV.

Fun thing was cancelling with DTV, they spend about 10 minutes reading a script of all of the fees that can be imposed on your account... and could happen for as much as 6 months after the cancel. IE: They need the boxes back (of course), they will scan teh cards to make sure they don't have pending PPV, and havent been "modified". 

Funny thing is my auto-pay went in before I cancelled, and they told me it will take up to 8 weeks to refund...

Oh well... I was with Dish for 9 Years, and DTV for 5... it's going to be weird without a dish on the roof.

BTW: Pricing was quite good... I got HDDVR's 2 rooms, Digital Phone Service (with 500 minutes free long distance a month) , and 15Mb UP/Down Internet for $120/mo. Have all of the channels plus music but minus premiums.


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## patman99 (Mar 20, 2009)

I'd switch to FIOS in a heartbeat if it were available in my area just so I could get my Philly sports back. Unfortunately for me, I live in an older neighborhood that is much further down the list of priorities for Verizon. So for now, I just have to keep saying my prayers every night that D* and Comcast can reach an agreement.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

Simple answer. No. I have DirecTV mostly for out of town sports and Fios does not have the NFL and while it has the other packages, it has minimal HD (and the HD they have on EI doesn't look all that good). I am seriously thinking of going Fios for phone and internet (and some local programming at an incremental cost) to replace Comcast.


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## susanandmark (Feb 15, 2007)

Not yes, but hell yes! I'd jump to FIOS in a minute. The Internet speed and HD selection is pretty amazing. That having been said, it's a totally moot point, as our poodunk area doesn't even have real cable available at this point (I've looked into it lately and the "cable" we can get looks like a redistributed sat head-end from a no-name company; comes in on a wire to your house, but it's basically like a hotel-level service of about 50-60 channels, total), so I'd expect FIOS sometime around the point where my two-year-old graduates college when FIOS is akin to dial-up.


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

dreadlk said:


> Would I drop D* for FIOS?
> That's like asking would I Drop my wife and instead have the Top three women in Miss America sleeping in my bed every night
> Tough choice


Dude, just buy a bigger bed. 

I'm not a big sports guy. Better picture and HD choices are my main concerns. If both are equal, deciding factor is price.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

What bit rate capability is typically devoted to each residence for the TV side of a FIOS service? In other words, how many simultaneous HD streams can it supply? In contrast, U-verse, which is only fiber to the node then DSL to the residence, only supports 1 or 2 (if you are close enough to the box) HD streams.


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## gfrang (Aug 30, 2007)

No there is no Fios in my area and if it was i wouldn't have any reason to switch.


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## Xsabresx (Oct 8, 2007)

I would definitely pick them up for internet. Still on the fence about TV. I really have no reason to switch that. I am not sure that it is ever coming to SA though (at least not in the near future). Someone told me about SA being a hub for AT&T and the grid being full (or something to that effect), so we may still be years away.


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

Not that FIOS will EVER be available in my area (Verizon just sold out regular POTS all over Maine to a local company), but I would definitely get their internet and phone. As far as Tv, it's a possibility, though they'd DEFINITELY have to increase their DVRs to at least 1 TB hard drives, and preferably allow recording of more than 2 channels at the same time. Also, allow more than 1 HD DVR on the account for backup (Not sure if they limit this or not).


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

kevinturcotte said:


> Not that FIOS will EVER be available in my area (Verizon just sold out regular POTS all over Maine to a local company), but I would definitely get their internet and phone. As far as Tv, it's a possibility, though they'd DEFINITELY have to increase their DVRs to at least 1 TB hard drives, and preferably allow recording of more than 2 channels at the same time. Also, allow more than 1 HD DVR on the account for backup (Not sure if they limit this or not).


better off with FairPoint than many of us are with TDS.


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> better off with FairPoint than many of us are with TDS.


Vonage and Time Warner are even better than Fairpoint!


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## curt8403 (Dec 27, 2007)

what is your opinion of the giant 3 ft by 3 ft box that fios mounts on your house. 
Have they dug up and wrecked your yard?


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## Dave DFW (Jun 11, 2008)

We've had Fios in the area for some time now. I will use Fios for internet and phone, but when I priced all the line items I would need to have tv equivalent to what D* provides, it was more expensive. I also prefer the D* progam lineup.

I have Verizon phone and dsl and at one point they were a reseller for D* in direct competition with Fios.


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## bpaulson (Jul 12, 2009)

I think they've enabled the esata port on the DVR's with FIOS now so you're able to expand the storage space.

I'm not sure what I'd do... I love DirecTV so I'm guessing I probably wouldn't switch (charter's internet around here is actually very good and at a very good price so I can't complain.)


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## UTVLamented (Oct 18, 2006)

I currently have both Directv and FIOS TV. Picture quality is equal on HD channels. FIOS is a little better on SD. If you are a sports package fan you can't drop Directv, they have many more games in HD than FIOS. Also the FIOS DVR does not have enough capacity and costs $16/month. If you are not a sports fan and money is your driving factor FIOS is a competitive service especially with a triple play deal. They have tons of premium movie channels in HD.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

patman99 said:


> I'd switch to FIOS in a heartbeat if it were available in my area just so I could get my Philly sports back. Unfortunately for me, I live in an older neighborhood that is much further down the list of priorities for Verizon. So for now, I just have to keep saying my prayers every night that D* and Comcast can reach an agreement.


Actually if you live in Wilmington, it wasn't Verizon that's to blame. They wanted to roll into the city, but the city said 'no'. And now that they've all but stopped their roll-out into new areas (beyond fulfilling their existing franchise agreements in places like NYC, DC, and Philly), chances are small that you'll get it within the next few years.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> what is your opinion of the giant 3 ft by 3 ft box that fios mounts on your house.
> Have they dug up and wrecked your yard?


Excuse me, but what the heck are you talking about? Are you referring to the ONT (optical network terminal)? If that's the case, then your dimensions are off by quite a bit. Mine is probably about 18" x 12". Not too much bigger than the NID that it replaced actually. Besides, are you really trying to convince people with satellite dishes on their houses that having a box that's a fraction of the size is too big? Not sure if that's the best argument to make on a dbs forum, to be honest.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> What bit rate capability is typically devoted to each residence for the TV side of a FIOS service? In other words, how many simultaneous HD streams can it supply? In contrast, U-verse, which is only fiber to the node then DSL to the residence, only supports 1 or 2 (if you are close enough to the box) HD streams.


Verizon employs a QAM/IP hybrid architecture for FiOS. The linear TV feeds, in other words, come in the same way traditional cable does. That's to say - all channels are carried concurrently. Meaning - there's really no limit on the number of HD feeds you can access at one time. The only limitation that they have is driven by the router that they use. That's where the IP portion comes in - things like guide data, VOD, and widgets come in via the IP feed - the router is a combo router/NIM, which ties into your cable splitter via coax. As a result all of their STBs (with the exception of what they call the 'digital adapter') is ip addressable. The router can handle 7 ip addressable devices. So, if I get 7 DVRs... I can access 14 HD feeds with those all at the same time. Or if I have more money than Trump, I could get 7 3-tuner Moxis and get 21 feeds... Plus I can have 3 non-ip addressable devices (the so-called digital adapter) - but because they're not ip-addressable, they don't get guide data, VOD, or widgets. On top of that, local channels come in in the clear, so if I have a TV with a QAM tuner I can get those channels without the need for a set top box. And there's no real limit on those feeds. The only real limit has to do with the signal strength of course.

Oh, and new versions of the router can handle 15 ip-addressable devices.

But because the ONT supplies the electrical signals for all your services (converts the fiber to copper), and because the ONT is powered by your house, the signal comes in very strong. So strong in fact that many people (and I have this on one of my boxes too) have to have the signal attenuated.

This architecture is about to undergo a bit of a change, though. Since Verizon is running low on available QAM slots for new channels, they're going to start carrying channels via IP.

BTW, your question, for right now, is valid for things like VOD. If someone is watching VOD, does my internet speed take a hit? Actually... no... well, it's 'no' up to a point. The ONT automatically adjusts your internet speed (up to a maximum, which depends on the generation of box you have - in most markets it's 50 Mbps, but will soon be 100 Mbps) when someone starts watching VOD. Way back when I had 5/2 internet service with them (I now have 25/15, and will soon have 35/35) I would notice an improvement of my internet speed whenever someone watched VOD. Yup... use VOD, and my internet speed actually went up. The ONT compensates up to that maximum.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

bpaulson said:


> I think they've enabled the esata port on the DVR's with FIOS now so you're able to expand the storage space.
> 
> I'm not sure what I'd do... I love DirecTV so I'm guessing I probably wouldn't switch (charter's internet around here is actually very good and at a very good price so I can't complain.)


Sorry for so many posts on this thread, but when there are questions I can answer, I take the opportunity. To correct what you wrote - no Verizon hasn't enabled the esata ports on their DVRs. Not yet. They're supposed to do that on the next gen boxes (by cisco) coming out this year. I can understand the confusion, though. Initially, Verizon used the 6xxx series of HD QIP boxes by Motorola. Those boxes (e.g. the 6416 HD DVR) don't have esata ports at all. Then when the FCC regulation with regard to separable security went into effect, Verizon was forced to move to a box that could accept a cable card. Thus was born the 7xxx series of those boxes (e.g. the 7216 HD DVR). THOSE boxes do have esata ports on them, but they're not active... unfortunately.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Nope.

FIOS in been in my neighborhood for about 5 years now, and I'm still here (although I do have FIOS internet).

Their TV service is more expensive (for my situation) and their DVR's suck.


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## VARTV (Dec 14, 2006)

curt8403 said:


> what is your opinion of the giant 3 ft by 3 ft box that fios mounts on your house.
> Have they dug up and wrecked your yard?


My box is inside my garage... is nowhere near "3 ft by 3 ft" you stated and after a week you couldn't see where they laid the fiber to my house...


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I can tell you that FIOS for internet and D* for TV is a great combo.


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## gphvid (Jun 19, 2007)

Well, I can see the crews installing the FIOS cables on the streets below me and know that they will probably make the run down ours this summer. I am also curious not only about FIOS internet but the cost for it, or for phone/internet bundle. And what are the speeds that people are getting with FIOS internet?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

gphvid said:


> Well, I can see the crews installing the FIOS cables on the streets below me and know that they will probably make the run down ours this summer. I am also curious not only about FIOS internet but the cost for it, or for phone/internet bundle. And what are the speeds that people are getting with FIOS internet?


Verizon has started moving heavily to - man, the word is eluding me right now... - they're moving to speeds that are the same up and down (hence me moving to 35/35 internet speed soon - the 'soon' btw is due to the fact that I'm moving to a new house, and they treat moves like new customers, so I'm forced to move to a new bundle).

I've had FiOS internet for 4 years now, and it is simply the best internet service out there. I had them for nearly 18 months along with DirecTV TV service before I eventually went with FiOS TV (FiOS TV didn't become available in my area for a year after I got internet), and whoever posted that the two are a great combination (DirecTV and FiOS internet) is right. FiOS phone service, btw, works just fine with DirecTV service. Anyway, their internet service is just rock solid. I've had one very minor outage in those 4 years. They don't have download caps. There is no throttling. There are no slow periods... none. I can do a speed test at 5 in the afternoon and I will get my full speed. The lack of throttling is just great, too. I had to download some s/w, and man did it fly.

You can check out their bundles on line. They now have a VoIP service (FiOS Digital Voice) available, and can be bundled in, or you can go with traditional phone service with them.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I can tell you that FIOS for internet and D* for TV is a great combo.


Agreed, and adding Vonage makes an even better trio.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> Agreed, and adding Vonage makes an even better trio.


I love Vonage too. That said, Verizon started offering a "digital voice" service in my area and a $60/month 15/5 internet + phone double-play, with no add'l taxes. It's a variation on VOIP. You have what is essentially POTS service in the home, but once it reaches Verizon, it gets converted to VOIP.

I recently switched back to Cablevision for my internet service, because I was only getting 10/2 from FiOS for $42/month and Cablevision offered me 15/2 for $29.95/month with no committment. When my Vonage annual service expires, I may give Verizon's DP a try.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

jpl said:


> I've had FiOS internet for 4 years now, and it is simply the best internet service out there. I had them for nearly 18 months along with DirecTV TV service before I eventually went with FiOS TV (FiOS TV didn't become available in my area for a year after I got internet)


What is the downstream bitrate supported for the FiOS TV?


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> What is the downstream bitrate supported for the FiOS TV?


Can't answer that, but will say that Verizon has publicly stated they can support up to 400 mbps total into a FiOS home over the existing infrastructure.

Looks like they have bandwidth to burn. My mom recently went with their "quadruple play" and without her even asking, they gave her 35/20 internet as part of the deal!


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## ctaranto (Feb 7, 2008)

spartanstew said:


> Agreed, and adding Vonage makes an even better trio.


I'd agree adding VoIP to it makes it a better trio, but Vonage? IMO, over priced, under quality.

I've been with Vonage (2 years), VoicePulse (2 years), and now VOIPo (3 months). By far, VOIPo is the best I've experienced for price, features, quality, and customer service.

I'm still waiting for fios to be put on my street. My town has it, but the development we're in has underground utilities - we'll be the last ones to get it. Currently suffering with Comcast throttled internet.

-Craig


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

ctaranto said:


> [...] By far, VOIPo is the best I've experienced for price, features, quality, and customer service. [...]


Never heard of VOIPo before I read your post, but I must say, it looks impressive! If it's as reliable as Vonage has been for me for the past couple of years (0 outages and no issues with voice quality, faxing or alarm monitoring), it's certainly beats Vonage's pricing, at $100/year prepaid!


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Steve said:


> Can't answer that, but will say that Verizon has publicly stated they can support up to 400 mbps total into a FiOS home over the existing infrastructure.
> 
> Looks like they have bandwidth to burn. My mom recently went with their "quadruple play" and without her even asking, they gave her 35/20 internet as part of the deal!


That makes U-verse look lame.


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## Skyboss (Jan 22, 2004)

NoMax said:


> They're laying the fiber in my neighborhood as I type this. Wonder if anyone had any real world experiences with D* vs FiOS. I think D* has been good to me but I have had repeated problems with my roof mounted dish going out of alignment. I also have been told by some that the PQ with FiOS is vastly superior to D*.
> 
> I apperciate sharing any thoughts / experiences.
> 
> NM


We're in the same boat. I have U-Verse and Cox as an option when my contract expires in September. Cox needs to step up content, and they have time and they need to deliver on the Tivo promise or they are off my list. U-Verse is appealling right now, but DirecTV has a chance to keep me if they get their head out of the sand.

What I'd really like to see is an al a carte trim down package with locals + majro news networks + sports (ESPN, NFL and Big Ten), but I'd like to be a billionaire too.

Whoever can deliver the programing at a reasonable cost will win in September. Sunday Ticket mess + other price hikes put Direct on the edge of the frying pan for me. We'll have to see see.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Steve said:


> I love Vonage too. That said, Verizon started offering a "digital voice" service in my area and a $60/month 15/5 internet + phone double-play, with no add'l taxes. It's a variation on VOIP. You have what is essentially POTS service in the home, but once it reaches Verizon, it gets converted to VOIP.


I tried FIOS' VOIP about 18 months ago and did not like it all. Lost many calls and got rid of it within 30 days.



ctaranto said:


> I'd agree adding VoIP to it makes it a better trio, but Vonage? IMO, over priced, under quality.
> 
> I've been with Vonage (2 years), VoicePulse (2 years), and now VOIPo (3 months). By far, VOIPo is the best I've experienced for price, features, quality, and customer service.


We all have our own opinions. Vonage has every feature I would need, I've never had to contact customer service (so don't care about that), and the quality is fantastic - zero issues.

There might be cheaper alternatives, but since my company pays for my phone, that doesn't matter to me either.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

The FIOS VOIP was horrible. That's why I switched to Phone Power.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> The FIOS VOIP was horrible. That's why I switched to Phone Power.


This isn't their old VOIP (Voicewing, IIRC). It's something new they just rolled-out in NY... maybe elsewhere as well. Like I said, it's only VOIP from the central office. From your home to there, it's like the "freedom" service.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Skyboss said:


> We're in the same boat. I have U-Verse and Cox as an option when my contract expires in September. Cox needs to step up content, and they have time and they need to deliver on the Tivo promise or they are off my list. U-Verse is appealling right now, but DirecTV has a chance to keep me if they get their head out of the sand.
> 
> What I'd really like to see is an al a carte trim down package with locals + majro news networks + sports (ESPN, NFL and Big Ten), but I'd like to be a billionaire too.
> 
> Whoever can deliver the programing at a reasonable cost will win in September. Sunday Ticket mess + other price hikes put Direct on the edge of the frying pan for me. We'll have to see see.


Keep in mind U-verse can only support 1, maybe 2 if you are close enough, HD streams at one time.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

Interesting article today. Very expensive for Verizon to keep rolling out Verizon, this is also why when customers roll off the promotional price it's a big hit.

At any rate, article today suggests they will stop building out FIOS territories

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16036/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=DemOfB4y


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## Reaper (Jul 31, 2008)

curt8403 said:


> what is your opinion of the giant 3 ft by 3 ft box that fios mounts on your house.
> Have they dug up and wrecked your yard?


As many posters have already noted, you grossly exaggerate the size of the FiOS ONT.

On the other, the unused satellite dishes and off-air antenna on my roof are quite large...


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> What is the downstream bitrate supported for the FiOS TV?


Not sure I understand the question. See my previous post - they don't use IP for linear TV feeds. They run mpeg-2 QAM for all their video, and they only carry 2 HD channels per QAM channel - which means they can carry all channels without doing any additional compression. As for the VOD feeds, not sure what they use for those feeds. I believe most are coming down in the 15 Mbps range... depending on the channel. I do have to say that the PQ for their VOD is on par with their linear feeds, and for some channels (e.g. Starz) I think it's superior.


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## rhipps (Apr 7, 2008)

No way. I need D* for my motorhome. And they have always treated me well.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> I tried FIOS' VOIP about 18 months ago and did not like it all. Lost many calls and got rid of it within 30 days.
> 
> We all have our own opinions. Vonage has every feature I would need, I've never had to contact customer service (so don't care about that), and the quality is fantastic - zero issues.
> 
> There might be cheaper alternatives, but since my company pays for my phone, that doesn't matter to me either.


If you used their VoIP service 18 months ago, then you were using their older service - Voicewing. Which, from what I understand, sucked. They recently came out with a new service called FiOS Digital Voice. As far as I know it's been rolled out to all markets - when I put in my order to transfer my service, and I went through the 'bundle' page, it gave me the option to select either Digital Voice, or their standard Freedom Essentials (their POTS service). Price-wise, there's no difference between the two, except for the taxes/fees that come along with POTS.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Satelliteracer said:


> Interesting article today. Very expensive for Verizon to keep rolling out Verizon, this is also why when customers roll off the promotional price it's a big hit.
> 
> At any rate, article today suggests they will stop building out FIOS territories
> 
> http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16036/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=DemOfB4y


Again, I apologize for the multiple posts. Anyway, this is kinda old news. They hinted at it for a while, and came right out late last year and indicated that this is what they're doing. They want to get their penetration rate in existing markets up to 40% before considering a second major roll-out. The only newish rollouts that are happening are in cities in which they already have franchise agreements (NYC, DC, Philly, etc.).

As for them taking hits when promotional pricing ends... yeah, that's an issue for all providers. Note, though, that Verizon has recently updated its ETF fees to be more in line with other providers. It's now $350 dollars, pro-rated for every month on contract. Although you don't HAVE to get a contract if you don't want one. Fortunately for them their churn rate is really really low - and they continue to add customers at a good clip.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

jpl said:


> As for them taking hits when promotional pricing ends... yeah, that's an issue for all providers


The chips falling after a year or two of promotional pricing are what's keeping me with FiOS Internet 20/5, FiOS Phone (POTS) and DirecTV. I am out of contract with DirecTV and it's VERY tempting to jump on a $89 package that would include Phone, Internet and TV with FiOS. However, I realize that on the horizon I will pay virtually the same as I do now with DirecTV but with 2 tuners to record from vs 6 with DirecTV. TiVO Premiere Series 4 looks great but from what I read, you can't stream to other FiOS receivers. You can only do a transfer so I guess you need more than 1 after all and that's a substantial amount of money to spend. OTOH, I already have the DirecTV HD DVRs. Sorry for thinking aloud.

In any case, the HD DVR, mulitroom flexibility and space makes DirecTV a clear winner. The prospect of the end of promotional pricing keeps me from ignoring that.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

ctaranto said:


> I'd agree adding VoIP to it makes it a better trio, but Vonage? IMO, over priced, under quality.
> 
> I've been with Vonage (2 years), VoicePulse (2 years), and now VOIPo (3 months). By far, VOIPo is the best I've experienced for price, features, quality, and customer service.
> 
> ...


I've been with Vonage for just over 4 years and am very satisfied with them. One big thing: they have a LOT of features, a few of which are extremely important to me.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Satelliteracer said:


> Interesting article today. Very expensive for Verizon to keep rolling out Verizon, this is also why when customers roll off the promotional price it's a big hit.
> 
> At any rate, article today suggests they will stop building out FIOS territories
> 
> http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16036/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=DemOfB4y


I think VZ made a ton of mistakes with FIOS. Take my home in the exurbs of Philly. We don't have any poles here - everything is buried. In "month 1", VZ added fiber terminals every 4-5 homes. They finish in "month 2". So I call to get the internet service and in "month 4" they finally come out.

I live in a townhouse and they end up having to dig a trench from my ONT to the box - about 300'. They bring out 2 trucks on two different days and I finally get my internet service in "month 5". (the internet service is great).

My next door neighbor orders FIOS in "month 7". Guess what - two trucks, another trench.

Not very smart - they should've done fiber to every house and switched folks to VZ internet phone service and almost have given away the TV service for a year or so. But VZ is so entrenched as a POTS that they can't adjust.

VZ may be the Kodak of the 2010's.


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## Satelliteracer (Dec 6, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I think VZ made a ton of mistakes with FIOS. Take my home in the exurbs of Philly. We don't have any poles here - everything is buried. In "month 1", VZ added fiber terminals every 4-5 homes. They finish in "month 2". So I call to get the internet service and in "month 4" they finally come out.
> 
> I live in a townhouse and they end up having to dig a trench from my ONT to the box - about 300'. They bring out 2 trucks on two different days and I finally get my internet service in "month 5". (the internet service is great).
> 
> ...


Their subscriber costs are enormous, but they can cover it with their wireless revenues which are also enormous. But the amount of money it takes to build out a FIOS area is mind boggling in terms of how much they are paying in labor, equipment, etc, etc.


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## AmyBluesoul (Mar 26, 2010)

Pricewise, DirecTV is better than Verizon FIOS, and if you have DirecTV you can likely bundle with Verizon and get discounts and new equipment to stay with Direct rather than going to Verizon. I'd get their internet though.


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## Skyboss (Jan 22, 2004)

tkrandall said:


> Keep in mind U-verse can only support 1, maybe 2 if you are close enough, HD streams at one time.


Really not that big an issue. The way D is going to push the HR24/H24 setup is:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/directv/technology/multiroom

_Record 2 shows while watching 2 others_

Obviously I'd want two of the faster DVRs in the set up, but I'm kinda done buying equipment. Seems thats all I ever do to keep up. I'm on my 10th receiver I think at this point.


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## QuickDrop (Jul 21, 2007)

Satelliteracer said:


> Interesting article today. Very expensive for Verizon to keep rolling out Verizon, this is also why when customers roll off the promotional price it's a big hit.
> 
> At any rate, article today suggests they will stop building out FIOS territories
> 
> http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16036/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=DemOfB4y


As a D* subscriber, I find this more worrisome than interesting. I'm in a Verizon area, but don't yet have Fios available and currently use Verizon DSL. Considering that D* uses my Internet connection for VOD, if Verizon doesn't expand the Fios network, I might be stuck with a limited download speed or choosing Comcast.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I think VZ made a ton of mistakes with FIOS. Take my home in the exurbs of Philly. We don't have any poles here - everything is buried. In "month 1", VZ added fiber terminals every 4-5 homes. They finish in "month 2". So I call to get the internet service and in "month 4" they finally come out.
> 
> I live in a townhouse and they end up having to dig a trench from my ONT to the box - about 300'. They bring out 2 trucks on two different days and I finally get my internet service in "month 5". (the internet service is great).
> 
> ...


What you're describing is probably not cheaper, actually. Each fiber run is expensive. When FiOS started rolling out, their cost was something like $4,000/subscriber to sign up. Granted, it's now a fraction of that, but you're talking about running alot of fiber to alot of homes. If they only get a penetration rate of 20% in your development, that's alot of wasted money. It's really no different than cable, in that regard. Comcast doesn't go around running coax to every home on the off-chance that everyone is going to subscribe.

Plus there's the factor of homeowners getting pissed off. Can you imagine a customer who didn't order FiOS having their front-yards dug just to run fiber for a service they may never get? Tick someone off like that and you may never get them as a customer.

Finally, there's the issue of the legality of it. They may not be allowed to do something like that - I would imagine that depends on the agreement they set with each township. Especially here in PA - if you're on copper phone service, they can't force you to switch. We're about to sell our home... the new owners could call Verizon tomorrow and demand copper be reinstalled for phone. Guess what? PA state law requires that Verizon comply in those cases (when ownership of the phone service at a home changes parties).

One last comment - POTS does NOT automatically = copper. Verizon offers both POTS and VoIP via FiOS. I have their Freedom Essentials FiOS Phone service, which is very much POTS service.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

AmyBluesoul said:


> Pricewise, DirecTV is better than Verizon FIOS, and if you have DirecTV you can likely bundle with Verizon and get discounts and new equipment to stay with Direct rather than going to Verizon. I'd get their internet though.


Well... that really depends on your setup, actually. Plus the $5/month savings you get for bundling DirecTV with Verizon really isn't on par with the savings you have with a triple/quad play. For example, right now, for my triple play, when all is said and done (including taxes/fees/hardware) I pay around $170/month for all three services. That includes:

- Freedom Essentials POTS phone service (yes, that cost includes all the fees), which gives me unlimited calling around the country.
- 25/15 internet
- Their former Extreme HD TV package (not to be confused with their newer package), which includes all their non-premium SD and HD channels (including all of their non-premium sports channels - e.g. no MLB EI in that price).
- The movie pack - add on that gives me: Starz, Showtime, TMC, IFC, Sundance, Flix, Encore - 47 SD channels, and most of them in HD, along with all the VOD for said services.
- In terms of hardware I have their HD Multiroom DVR, and an HD STB for a second room.

Somehow, I don't think, if I got something equivalent with DirecTV, I would be paying that little. I'd guess that my cost would probably be north of $200/month.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

jpl said:


> Well... that really depends on your setup, actually. Plus the $5/month savings you get for bundling DirecTV with Verizon really isn't on par with the savings you have with a triple/quad play. For example, right now, for my triple play, when all is said and done (including taxes/fees/hardware) I pay around $170/month for all three services. That includes:
> 
> - Freedom Essentials POTS phone service (yes, that cost includes all the fees), which gives me unlimited calling around the country.
> - 25/15 internet
> ...


$64.99 Verizon Freedom Essentials Double Bundle (Phone & FiOS Internet 20/5) + DirecTV TC Plus + HD+ DVR+HBO (-$10 cred/yr) Show/Starz 2/1 ($13): 4 rooms: 3 DVRS [2 HD/1 SD DVR]+ 1 HD Rcv [so 3 rooms using MRV/4 tuners (200 HD hours)]>

So Directv is about $111 right now + the Verizon $64.99= $176.

I'm not going to keep those premiums long term either.

I can't see what switching would do for me in the long run.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I just wish VZ would stop pitching the phone service. All I want is internet and wireless, and they can't seem to get a "bundle" for that combination. Even if I were to add TV, they STILL keep pitching telephone service.

That's what I meant about being like Kodak. The world was moving to digital photography, and Kodak kept pitching film. Today, film is a dying industry and Kodak is in a world of hurt (I know - most of my family lives in Rochester, home of Kodak)


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

No I would not dump D*, they have too many sports that I watch in HD. Plus I don't have Fios or Uverse available here anyways, and I don't see them coming now after reading the article Satelliteracer linked to.

BTW, I'm surprised a lot of you still have a land line. I dumped mine 3 or 4 years ago now and don't miss it at all. I just didn't see paying for two phones worth it, one I hardly ever used and got mostly telemarketers calling me on. Cell all the way.


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

TheRatPatrol said:


> No I would not dump D*, they have too many sports that I watch in HD. Plus I don't have Fios or Uverse available here anyways, and I don't see them coming now after reading the article Satelliteracer linked to.
> 
> BTW, I'm surprised a lot of you still have a land line. I dumped mine 3 or 4 years ago now and don't miss it at all. I just didn't see paying for two phones worth it, one I hardly ever used and got mostly telemarketers calling me on. Cell all the way.


Cell phones are nice, *IF* you can get a signal where you live, and if they didn't want to charge an arm and a leg every month for them. I pay Vonage $30 a month, and can call anywhere in North America I want, 24/7 if I want.


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## TheRatPatrol (Oct 1, 2003)

kevinturcotte said:


> Cell phones are nice, *IF* you can get a signal where you live, and if they didn't want to charge an arm and a leg every month for them. I pay Vonage $30 a month, and can call anywhere in North America I want, 24/7 if I want.


True, but you can't take a land line with you.


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## Lord Vader (Sep 20, 2004)

With Vonage you pretty much can. Plus, with a cell phone and a landline, I'm set.

I use a Vonage feature that I love--Simulring. When my landline phone rings, my cell phone rings simultaneously, effectively giving me a landline extension wherever I am located.

One big reason I still have a landline? 911 service. That time spent trying to tell a cell phone operator where you are can mean the difference between life and death.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

jpl said:


> Not sure I understand the question. See my previous post - they don't use IP for linear TV feeds. They run mpeg-2 QAM for all their video, and they only carry 2 HD channels per QAM channel - which means they can carry all channels without doing any additional compression. As for the VOD feeds, not sure what they use for those feeds. I believe most are coming down in the 15 Mbps range... depending on the channel. I do have to say that the PQ for their VOD is on par with their linear feeds, and for some channels (e.g. Starz) I think it's superior.


I'm a bit ignorant of how QAM works, but if they can get two HD channels per QAM channel at one time, how many simultaneous QAM channels can they push to a residence?


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

Skyboss said:


> Really not that big an issue. The way D is going to push the HR24/H24 setup is:
> 
> http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/content/directv/technology/multiroom
> 
> _Record 2 shows while watching 2 others_


Many households would want at least the ability to support the simultaneous recording/watching of 4 HD streams at one time (2 DVRs) plus maybe watch another 1 or 2 live. This is no issue with DBS, you only need enough boxes/DVRs to support it. The single household server boxes introduce a new limitation that I am not so sure I am excited about.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Lord Vader said:


> I use a Vonage feature that I love--Simulring. When my landline phone rings, my cell phone rings simultaneously, effectively giving me a landline extension wherever I am located.


I use Google Voice for that. Got to pick my own phone number and if someone calls it, every phone I have rings (cell, home, office). Should be the last phone number I ever have.


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## uncrules (Dec 20, 2005)

It looks like future rollouts of FiOS maybe stopping.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/27/verizon-shelves-plans-for-future-fios-rollouts-relocations-to-m/



> 'Tis fun while it lasted, yeah? Verizon's FiOS has provided a much-wanted (or much-needed, some would argue) sliver of competition in markets that were previously offered just one or two ISP options, and the wicked fast speeds available through the fiber-based service were just one big stream of cherries-on-top. We've personally noticed that the company has slowed down the rate at which it blasts out releases trumpeting new FiOS and FiOS TV markets, and now we know why: an Associated Press report notes that the operator has canned all public plans about expanding its FTTH home network, though it will continue to build-out where it had previously announced service (Washington, D.C., New York City and Philadelphia, namely). Of course, Verizon never stated that it would be making FiOS a nationwide service, but after hitting at least some sections of 18 states, we had high hopes that it would keep on keepin' on. Unfortunately, it looks like you'll be forced to move to FiOS-heavy Massachusetts, or simply gaze endlessly from your apartment window knowing that you'll never feel the warm glow of a FiOS wire.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

They do make it hard to resist.

Typical day like today: 2 Solicitations in the Mail:

Get FiOS Internet (15/5, higher speeds up to 50 down for addl fee) Phone (Freedom Essentials) and FiOS TV (Extreme HD) for $69.99 for months 1-6 and $99.99 for months 7-24. "You'll save $420".

Order online and save an additional $5 for 2 years.

I feel myself cracking.:nono2:


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

mikeny said:


> They do make it hard to resist.
> 
> Typical day like today: 2 Solicitations in the Mail:
> 
> ...


My mom is the ideal customer as far as Verizon is concerned. She took advantage of a similar deal and when she added HBO to the TV package, they upped her internet to 35/20 without her even asking! :lol: She also bundled in two cell phones and an extra land-line she needs for business use (she's a realtor). With one multi-room DVR and two add'l boxes (3 HD locations total), she pays about $240/month for the whole shebang, all on one bill. 12 month commitment, 2-year price guarantee.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

Steve said:


> My mom is the ideal customer as far as Verizon is concerned. She took advantage of a similar deal and when she added HBO to the TV package, they upped her internet to 35/20 without her even asking! :lol: She also bundled in two cell phones and an extra land-line she needs for business use (she's a realtor). With one multi-room DVR and two add'l boxes (3 HD locations total), she pays about $240/month for the whole shebang, all on one bill. 12 month commitment, 2-year price guarantee.


That's awesome. My last 'One Bill' which incudes FiOS Internet 20/5, Freedom Essentials Phone, Cellular(Nationwide Loyalty Fam Share 550 min -4 lines) and DirecTV came to about $324.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

tkrandall said:


> I'm a bit ignorant of how QAM works, but if they can get two HD channels per QAM channel at one time, how many simultaneous QAM channels can they push to a residence?


Ah... ok. QAM is just a method for carrying digital data on coax via an electrical signal. Each QAM channel is 6 MHz wide, and can carry data at a rate of ~40Mbps. So, if you're running MPEG-2 (which Verizon does), you can carry 2 HD channels worth of data (or 8-9 SD channels) in a QAM slot (since mpeg-2 HD peaks at around 19.4Mbps) without having to do any additional compression. Comcast went to 3 HD channels per QAM, which is why their quality took a hit - you can squeeze in as many channels per QAM slot as you want, but that just means start bit-starving your feeds.

With QAM all channels are carried at the same time - you're not switching feeds every time you change the channel - so that coax is carrying all your channels at once. Which means... the number of channels you can carry depends on how 'wide' your QAM space is.

Now, with traditional cable, even in high capacity areas, you're looking at a max width of ~750MHz. Divide that by 6, and you get the number of QAM slices. But traditional cable carries some analog channels (each analog channel also takes up 6MHz of bandwidth), so some of that 'width' isn't used for digital feeds. And for the part that IS used for digital feeds, part of THAT is used for the ancellary digital data that needs to come across - guide data, VOD, interactive stuff, internet, voice. Now one solution to this bandwidth issue is to increase the width of your QAM space. Cable companies are looking at 1GHz service, but doing that isn't cheap. Coax can handle frequency ranges well in excess of 1GHz, but the degree of signal drop-off per linear foot is directly proportional to the frequency of the signal. Go to a higher frequency and you need to boost the signal more to get it to everyone's house. Plus alot of the hardware out there already (splitters and the like) aren't spec'd to handle frequencies that high, so all of that would need to be replaced too.

Verizon does use QAM for its linear TV feeds. However, because they run fiber to the home, they ONLY use QAM for the linear TV feeds (this is why it drives me nuts when someone tells me that FiOS is really no different than traditional cable setups). Since the fiber can handle orders of magnitude more data than coax, they run all of their other digital feeds outside their QAM space - things like guide data, VOD, widgets, phone and internet all come in via the IP feed... not through the QAM feed.

On top of that because Verizon powers the coax at your house, they can easily run a higher signal width than most cable companies - right now their QAM space is 870MHz wide. Finally, FiOS TV is all digital - they used to have some analog channels, but those are gone. Digital channels take up alot less room than analog, so by getting rid of all their analogs, they freed up a tremendous amount of space. If you do the math, you'll see that Verizon currently has about 135 QAM channels available to it on FiOS. And every single one is JUST for carrying linear TV feeds.

Because they have that space, they don't do any additional compression on their TV channels - they run 2 HD channels per QAM slot, like I mentioned. So, say they dedicate 100 QAM slots just for HD programming. That means they can carry 200 HD channels, and they would have enough room left over (35 QAM slots) to carry ~300 SD channels on top of that. All carried concurrently. That's not how Verizon broke things down - they carry alot more SD channels than that, which means they can top out at ~140 - 150 HD channels today. BTW, because Verizon decided to make all channel lineups consistent across markets, they have an additional limitation. They have to allow enough QAM slots to meet their largest local market. That is, because not all markets have the same number of local channels, they had to take the one with the largest number, and apply that across the board. So, if they have 20 QAMs just for locals in their largest market, they have to reserve the same for all their other markets as well, whether they use them or not.

The next step for FiOS is to move to IP for some linear TV feeds. From what I understand, they're going to move some channels to IP. But for now, there is no limit as to how many HD channels you can access at one time.


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## kevinturcotte (Dec 19, 2006)

jpl said:


> Ah... ok. QAM is just a method for carrying digital data on coax via an electrical signal. Each QAM channel is 6 MHz wide, and can carry data at a rate of ~40Mbps. So, if you're running MPEG-2 (which Verizon does), you can carry 2 HD channels worth of data (or 8-9 SD channels) in a QAM slot (since mpeg-2 HD peaks at around 19.4Mbps) without having to do any additional compression. Comcast went to 3 HD channels per QAM, which is why their quality took a hit - you can squeeze in as many channels per QAM slot as you want, but that just means start bit-starving your feeds.
> 
> With QAM all channels are carried at the same time - you're not switching feeds every time you change the channel - so that coax is carrying all your channels at once. Which means... the number of channels you can carry depends on how 'wide' your QAM space is.
> 
> ...


So IP would limit the number of HD channels you can access at once? And IP wouldn't work with Tivo, would it?


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

kevinturcotte said:


> So IP would limit the number of HD channels you can access at once? And IP wouldn't work with Tivo, would it?


Yes, it would. How many that would be... depends on the network in your area. They need to get to GPON at the least to make full IP possible. Which I think is pretty much the standard everywhere, though. Although, your ONT would need to be able to handle GPON to make that possible. That being said, I recently read an article where Verizon ran a test of the next generation of PON, where they're running some ridiculous amount of data down. I forget what the bitrate was, but it was several orders of magnitude larger than what they can handle today.

I don't know about the IP working with TiVo, to be honest. I know that TiVo can't handle the VOD interactivity today, but that's true whether the VOD is handled via QAM or IP. I believe TiVo recently came out with something to allow them to work with SDV, so I can't imagine it would be that hard to upgrade those boxes to allow for IP. One thing that might slow Verizon's desire down to go for partial IP - as long as the third party boxes (TiVo, Moxi) don't support IP, they would technically be in violation of the FCC's separable security requirements, and would be subject to a fine.

Although it looks like the FCC may have slackened off with enforcement of that regulation. Last year Verizon sent everyone a letter saying that the cost of SD boxes, for new subscribers, would be going up effective July 1st. that date was key - because that's the date that their temporary waiver for separable security on SD boxes was set to expire. Which means that the cost increase was likely due to the fact that they would need to move to a new generation of boxes that could accept cable cards. So I figured that the increased cost was due to that change-over. Well, the price increase never happened... and the next gen of boxes never came about. What's more, they're still offering the 'digital adapters' - QAM only boxes that would not be allowed under this FCC regulation. But they're very much available. Which tells me that the FCC has slackened off on enforcing that regulation, so I really have no idea if Verizon would still be penalized for offering up IP feeds for some channels.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

mikeny said:


> They do make it hard to resist.
> 
> Typical day like today: 2 Solicitations in the Mail:


For the first 3 years I lived in my current house, not only did they have a table/tent set up at Albertsons, so that they talked to you every time you went grocery shopping, they also went door to door at least once per month and sent mailers every week.

I haven't seen them at Albertsons or door to door in a couple of years, but I still get the mailers every week.


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## hoyty76 (Oct 17, 2007)

Yes, I did a little over a month ago. Was with DirecTV since 2000 but just got tired of paying $400 for RedZone HD. I had FIOS Internet for almost 2 years, I was at 20/20 now at 35/35 for my servers. I use my Series 3 TiVo and will soon use Windows 7 Media Center and Quad Tuner. One of the many bonuses is that FIOS doesn't enable the no copy bit on ANYTHING (even HBO / Sho) so I can do whatever I want with any recording on my TiVo. It is nice to have an archive of HD movies that are totally unencrypted. Another bonus is the increased picture quality. HDNet on DirecTV doesn't compare on FIOS. 19 MB solid all the time signal rate. Yes I know DirecTV is now MPEG4 so bit rate isn't comparable but I am getting what HDNet sends period.

The idea of HR24 + SWM + DECA is interesting now but since it would have cost me a minimum of $400 and a new 2 year contract to get it I will pass. That is if DirecTV blessed me as being allowed to get SWM upgrade. Oh and charging for MRV that I can't use on anything other than DVR, pass.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

jpl said:


> Ah... ok. QAM is just a method for carrying digital data on coax via an electrical signal. Each QAM channel is 6 MHz wide, and can carry data at a rate of ~40Mbps. So, if you're running MPEG-2 (which Verizon does), you can carry 2 HD channels worth of data (or 8-9 SD channels) in a QAM slot (since mpeg-2 HD peaks at around 19.4Mbps) without having to do any additional compression. Comcast went to 3 HD channels per QAM, which is why their quality took a hit - you can squeeze in as many channels per QAM slot as you want, but that just means start bit-starving your feeds.
> 
> With QAM all channels are carried at the same time - you're not switching feeds every time you change the channel - so that coax is carrying all your channels at once. Which means... the number of channels you can carry depends on how 'wide' your QAM space is.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Very good info.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

hoyty76 said:


> Yes, I did a little over a month ago. Was with DirecTV since 2000 but just got tired of paying $400 for RedZone HD. I had FIOS Internet for almost 2 years, I was at 20/20 now at 35/35 for my servers. I use my Series 3 TiVo and will soon use Windows 7 Media Center and Quad Tuner. One of the many bonuses is that FIOS doesn't enable the no copy bit on ANYTHING (even HBO / Sho) so I can do whatever I want with any recording on my TiVo. It is nice to have an archive of HD movies that are totally unencrypted. Another bonus is the increased picture quality. HDNet on DirecTV doesn't compare on FIOS. 19 MB solid all the time signal rate. Yes I know DirecTV is now MPEG4 so bit rate isn't comparable but I am getting what HDNet sends period.
> 
> The idea of HR24 + SWM + DECA is interesting now but since it would have cost me a minimum of $400 and a new 2 year contract to get it I will pass. That is if DirecTV blessed me as being allowed to get SWM upgrade. Oh and charging for MRV that I can't use on anything other than DVR, pass.


The TiVO Premiere looks great but does it do MRV to the other Verizon Motorola boxes? I could see wanting at least $600 worth of a couple of TiVo's. You mentioned the Windows Media Center PC but can you record FiOS with it?

It's hard for me to imagine a more flexible system than one with 2 or 3 HRs and an Hx doing MRV..at least not without spending a ton of money. So I keep leaning to DirecTV.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

mikeny said:


> The TiVO Premiere looks great but does it do MRV to the other Verizon Motorola boxes? I could see wanting at least $600 worth of a couple of TiVo's. You mentioned the Windows Media Center PC but can you record FiOS with it?
> 
> It's hard for me to imagine a more flexible system than one with 2 or 3 HRs and an Hx doing MRV..at least not without spending a ton of money. So I keep leaning to DirecTV.


I can't imagine that it does do MRV with the Moto boxes. The TiVO HD also does MRV, but you're required to go with other TiVos to make that happen - a pretty expensive proposition. The other solution is Moxi. You can get alternate boxes known as Moxi mates. Granted they're not cheap, and they're not DVRs, but they feed off the DVR - very much like Verizon's setup now with their MRV feeds. Although I don't know if the Moxi Mates are tuners in and of themselves. Meaning that your live TV feeds, I believe, come from the Moxi DVR... which makes it not exactly like Verizon's MRV feeds.

With Verizon you can get a MR DVR (Motorola) and feed recordings to your other stand-alone STBs.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

jpl said:


> I can't imagine that it does do MRV with the Moto boxes. The TiVO HD also does MRV, but you're required to go with other TiVos to make that happen - a pretty expensive proposition. The other solution is Moxi. You can get alternate boxes known as Moxi mates. Granted they're not cheap, and they're not DVRs, but they feed off the DVR - very much like Verizon's setup now with their MRV feeds. Although I don't know if the Moxi Mates are tuners in and of themselves. Meaning that your live TV feeds, I believe, come from the Moxi DVR... which makes it not exactly like Verizon's MRV feeds.
> 
> With Verizon you can get a MR DVR (Motorola) and feed recordings to your other stand-alone STBs.


Thanks for the info jpl. What if you wanted another couple of tuners to record to? They don't offer DVR to DVR MRV yet, correct? Can you even have 2 independently or do they only allow 1/home? Last question, how many people can access the DVR recordings at once?


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## hoyty76 (Oct 17, 2007)

mikeny said:


> The TiVO Premiere looks great but does it do MRV to the other Verizon Motorola boxes? I could see wanting at least $600 worth of a couple of TiVo's. You mentioned the Windows Media Center PC but can you record FiOS with it?
> 
> It's hard for me to imagine a more flexible system than one with 2 or 3 HRs and an Hx doing MRV..at least not without spending a ton of money. So I keep leaning to DirecTV.


Today you can record to Windows Media Center using ATI Cable Card controllers, however they are single tuner per cable card and quite expensive and hard to find. By May 31 Ceton will have a quad tuner cable card solution. Which means for $3.99 a month I can record 4 tuners worth and do ANYTHING I want with the content. Stream to another Windows PC, stream to an Xbox 360, download to iPod / Zune, archive to Blu-Ray whatever I want since I control the content.

The thing is I have 2 Xbox 360 and the Windows Media Center machine built already. I built it all on the promises / hopes of the HDPC-20 which was going to allow DirecTV recording to a WMC. That product was killed off. The upfront cost might be higher (might) but my monthly cost is lower. My total monthly cost for tuners / mrv / dvr is $3.99. No multiple box leasing fee, no MRV fee and no DVR fee. Oh and as a bonus I get HD for free instead of $10-16.

As far as TiVo to Moto, nope. However I don't have nor plan to ever have a Verizon / Moto STB / DVR in my house. I will freely admit that a Verizon Moto box is worse than a HR, that is why I don't use it. That is the great thing about choice. I can use a TiVo, Moxi, WMC or even just watch Clear QAM on a TV.


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## hoyty76 (Oct 17, 2007)

mikeny said:


> Thanks for the info jpl. What if you wanted another couple of tuners to record to? They don't offer DVR to DVR MRV yet, correct? Can you even have 2 independently or do they only allow 1/home? Last question, how many people can access the DVR recordings at once?


I am assuming you are asking about Moxi, if not this answer is not terribly useful. You may want to look at Moxi Options. You can have more than one DVR in a house I can't find if you can stream between DVR. You can have at least three Moxi Mates per Moxi DVR accessing either live TV or recordings.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

hoyty76 said:


> Today you can record to Windows Media Center using ATI Cable Card controllers, however they are single tuner per cable card and quite expensive and hard to find. By May 31 Ceton will have a quad tuner cable card solution. Which means for $3.99 a month I can record 4 tuners worth and do ANYTHING I want with the content. Stream to another Windows PC, stream to an Xbox 360, download to iPod / Zune, archive to Blu-Ray whatever I want since I control the content.
> 
> The thing is I have 2 Xbox 360 and the Windows Media Center machine built already. I built it all on the promises / hopes of the HDPC-20 which was going to allow DirecTV recording to a WMC. That product was killed off. The upfront cost might be higher (might) but my monthly cost is lower. My total monthly cost for tuners / mrv / dvr is $3.99. No multiple box leasing fee, no MRV fee and no DVR fee. Oh and as a bonus I get HD for free instead of $10-16.
> 
> As far as TiVo to Moto, nope. However I don't have nor plan to ever have a Verizon / Moto STB / DVR in my house. I will freely admit that a Verizon Moto box is worse than a HR, that is why I don't use it. That is the great thing about choice. I can use a TiVo, Moxi, WMC or even just watch Clear QAM on a TV.


Thanks. That is intersesting. The TiVO-TiVO, Moxi systems and the HTPC the XBox 360 setups sound like good, flexible but perhaps expensive alternatives to MRV.



hoyty76 said:


> I am assuming you are asking about Moxi, if not this answer is not terribly useful. You may want to look at Moxi Options. You can have more than one DVR in a house I can't find if you can stream between DVR. You can have at least three Moxi Mates per Moxi DVR accessing either live TV or recordings.


I was actually asking about the FiOS in house implementation of MRV there.

How many simultaneous streams can the FiOS Moto MRV HD DVR send to other Moto boxes?


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## ChrisPC (Jun 17, 2003)

FWIW, I switched from D* to U-verse for a couple of months (long enough for the rebates). The VOIP and internet are really nice, but the HD PQ doesn't match D*. I hear there's no such problem with FiOS, though. I finally went back to D* for TV, because it costs almost the same.


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## Paul Secic (Dec 16, 2003)

tkrandall said:


> What bit rate capability is typically devoted to each residence for the TV side of a FIOS service? In other words, how many simultaneous HD streams can it supply? In contrast, U-verse, which is only fiber to the node then DSL to the residence, only supports 1 or 2 (if you are close enough to the box) HD streams.


I had U-verse and quit because we had no TV for 14 hours. I'm never going back!


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

mikeny said:


> Thanks for the info jpl. What if you wanted another couple of tuners to record to? They don't offer DVR to DVR MRV yet, correct? Can you even have 2 independently or do they only allow 1/home? Last question, how many people can access the DVR recordings at once?


No on the DVR to DVR sharing for now, but I understand that's coming. Yes, you can have as many DVRs as they allow. Basically, the system, as I mentioned earlier, is spec'd for 7 IP-addressable devices (soon to be 15). Meaning I could have 7 DVRs if I wanted. In a set-up where you have multiple DVRs, and where you want MR recording access, you can only specify one DVR as the MR DVR. That's the ONLY one you can share recordings from. The other would be stand-alone. As for the number that can access it, it depends on whether you're dealing with SD or HD.

With SD, three TVs can access recordings (even access the same recording, independently - I tried this, btw, and was frankly surprised that it works) at the same time (if you include the TV with the DVR). For HD then 2 TVs can access recordings at the same time, including the TV with the DVR.

As for how many TVs can access the DVR overall - as many as have ip-enabled boxes on them. So, say I have 1 MR DVR, and 6 other set top boxes. All 6 would be able to access recordings off that DVR, just not all at the same time.

The playback is pretty nice, actually. The PQ is surprisingly good. I love the fact that when you pause/stop playback in one room, you can resume playback in another.


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## mikeny (Aug 21, 2006)

jpl said:


> No on the DVR to DVR sharing for now, but I understand that's coming. Yes, you can have as many DVRs as they allow. Basically, the system, as I mentioned earlier, is spec'd for 7 IP-addressable devices (soon to be 15). Meaning I could have 7 DVRs if I wanted. In a set-up where you have multiple DVRs, and where you want MR recording access, you can only specify one DVR as the MR DVR. That's the ONLY one you can share recordings from. The other would be stand-alone. As for the number that can access it, it depends on whether you're dealing with SD or HD.
> 
> With SD, three TVs can access recordings (even access the same recording, independently - I tried this, btw, and was frankly surprised that it works) at the same time (if you include the TV with the DVR). For HD then 2 TVs can access recordings at the same time, including the TV with the DVR.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the helpful info.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

Actually if you have a beefy enough PC, you could technically do a form of MRV from the TiVo to the FiOS set top boxes. FiOS offers a media manager that lets you stream content to their set top boxes. I don't know what codecs it uses since I am only using TiVO and Windows 7 Media Center, but I would imagine you could set up a program like KMTTG which autotransfers shows from your TiVo and then transcodes them into a format the media manager recognizes. The transcoding of course is what would be time consuming depending on what format you would need for this to work.

Also from my understanding TiVo would work with an IP gateway if the cable companies rolled it out. It wouldn't make sense not to since it was their suggestion to the FCC.

Personally I just have TiVos in every room along with a 360 at each TV so I can access Windows 7 Media Center. For me it was a wash in the upfront cost since I would have paid several hundred dollars to upgrade all of my Directv receivers to HD on Directv not to mention the money I saved on the bill for the first 6 months due to all the promotions. Even after the 6 months though I am still paying less than I was with DirecTV and FiOS phone and internet by around $80 a month. By the end of the first year I will have just about covered my cost for the TiVo HDs with lifetime.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Brennok said:


> Actually if you have a beefy enough PC, you could technically do a form of MRV from the TiVo to the FiOS set top boxes. FiOS offers a media manager that lets you stream content to their set top boxes. I don't know what codecs it uses since I am only using TiVO and Windows 7 Media Center, but I would imagine you could set up a program like KMTTG which autotransfers shows from your TiVo and then transcodes them into a format the media manager recognizes. The transcoding of course is what would be time consuming depending on what format you would need for this to work.


Sounds interesting, but I don't think it'll work. Verizon's Media Manager requires an additional piece of s/w to be up and running on your PC, and all feeds (music, pictures, home video, streaming internet video, and streaming internet radio) HAVE to go through that s/w. The internet feeds are only from specific sources (e.g. YouTube) that are recognized by that s/w (that is, I can't just tune into any internet radio feed... I have to go through the specific feeds that Verizon has set up). For the home stuff (my own digital pictures, and all), the stuff has to be fed through that s/w.

Now, in the past you had to 'scan' those files into their Media Manager s/w on your PC. They've since put an add on that will detect if you have some device hooked via USB, and will pull that in as a source. You would need to have something that would port the video to a device that can connect via USB to your PC. I don't know if TiVo can do that. But even if it can - here's the rub. Media Manager only accepts specific types of video formats. It's not meant for streaming HD video. I really don't think it can do HD at all, to be honest, although I've never tried.

And there's one final rub. Right now Media Manager only works with their DVRs. Although they're starting to roll out updates to their s/w that allow you to access it via the stand-alone HD boxes. That capability showed up (for a little while) on my HD STB, actually. Then it went away (based on other information I read, I think that was a 'misfire' from Verizon - that they didn't intend the feature to get rolled out yet, despite the fact that it worked great on my STB).


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

TiVo's form of MRV is actually a transfer and with FiOS nothing is flagged copy once so anything can be transferred off the TiVo to a PC. As it is now, people use KMTTG to autotransfer TiVo recordings while also having it strip the TiVo container so it can then cut out the commercials and all of this is done automatically by the software.

That was my point and solution though for a possible way to get TiVo recordings viewable on the FiOS DVR. Once you figure out what file format the Media Manager software supports, you would just need to convert the TiVo recording to that format which can be done automatically via KMTTG. I imagine it would work the same way Streambaby works with the TiVo or TVersity and Vuze work with the 360

You would just set the destination folder for the converted TiVo file on your PC as one the Media Manager monitors. Then any transferred and converted recording would be streamable to the FiOS DVR.

Obviously it wouldn't be the best or easiest solution, but it might work. I have no plans on using their DVR again so I won't have a chance to test it. My TiVo and 7MC setup works much better for me.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Brennok said:


> TiVo's form of MRV is actually a transfer and with FiOS nothing is flagged copy once so anything can be transferred off the TiVo to a PC. As it is now, people use KMTTG to autotransfer TiVo recordings while also having it strip the TiVo container so it can then cut out the commercials and all of this is done automatically by the software.
> 
> That was my point and solution though for a possible way to get TiVo recordings viewable on the FiOS DVR. Once you figure out what file format the Media Manager software supports, you would just need to convert the TiVo recording to that format which can be done automatically via KMTTG. I imagine it would work the same way Streambaby works with the TiVo or TVersity and Vuze work with the 360
> 
> ...


Interesting. I wasn't aware of all that. I guess it could work then. But the PQ would probably be terrible - not sure if you can even stream HD via Media Manager, and the interface, from the Verizon STB, would be really painful - you'd have to go into Media Manager on the Verizon STB, and find the recording - it would probably take several button presses just to find the recording, figure out which is the right one, and get it to play. And then you're playing it through the Media Manager piece of the s/w on the STB, which doesn't give you a full screen view. Also, I don't remember what video formats Media Manager supports.

I've looked at getting a TiVo (the new boxes look mighty nice), but the loss of VOD would be a show-stopper for me, not to mention when they start migrating channels to IP (supposed to start at some point this year). Not to get too far OT, but since this thread IS about FiOS I figured a little leeway is acceptable - do you know if TiVo will be able to support IP TV feeds at all? I believe they can handle SDV, but I wasn't sure about IP.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

I didn't know the media manager locked you into a window. I just assumed it was full screen. As far as PQ, I don't see it being any different than ripping a Blue Ray and downcoding it into a more reasonable file size for storage on a home PC/server. Also KMTTG automatically names the file based off whatever you tell it to use so for example I usually name my files Show Name_Episode #_Show Title. It also create folders per show.

Yeah from everything we know TiVo will support IP. It might require some type of software update, but TiVo is one of the companies that recommended the IP gateway to the FCC as a replacement for cable card. More info is here and here. Now if only FiOS enables IP I don't know if TiVo would put effort into supporting it. It would probably depend on what would be needed to add support.

I had a STB when I first switched to FiOS, but with all my recordings I never even used VOD so I don't miss it. I have more shows now than I can watch since all of my TiVo HDs have 150 HD hours plus the storage of my PC when needed and the 4 qam tuners in my PC until Ceton's InfiniTV 4 is out.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

No, because it isn't available here and it won't be. They've canceled all plans for further expansion.


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## jpl (Jul 9, 2006)

Brennok said:


> I didn't know the media manager locked you into a window. I just assumed it was full screen. As far as PQ, I don't see it being any different than ripping a Blue Ray and downcoding it into a more reasonable file size for storage on a home PC/server. Also KMTTG automatically names the file based off whatever you tell it to use so for example I usually name my files Show Name_Episode #_Show Title. It also create folders per show.
> 
> Yeah from everything we know TiVo will support IP. It might require some type of software update, but TiVo is one of the companies that recommended the IP gateway to the FCC as a replacement for cable card. More info is here and here. Now if only FiOS enables IP I don't know if TiVo would put effort into supporting it. It would probably depend on what would be needed to add support.
> 
> I had a STB when I first switched to FiOS, but with all my recordings I never even used VOD so I don't miss it. I have more shows now than I can watch since all of my TiVo HDs have 150 HD hours plus the storage of my PC when needed and the 4 qam tuners in my PC until Ceton's InfiniTV 4 is out.


Yeah, you could get specific about naming your episodes and all, but the way the Media Manager displays the titles would force you to keep them short if you want to tell the difference between multiple episodes.

As for the full screen, Media Manager does allow you to explode out the view - so you start in the default screen, but hit 'OK' and it takes you to a 'full screen'. But from what I've seen, full screen is 4:3. I don't think it even allows you to go 16:9... but I'm not totally positive. As for the PQ - yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess I'm used to the quality of YouTube via Media Manager (since that's video streaming that I generally do over it - I have very few home videos that I stream).

Some interesting items in those article you referenced. Some of the FCC recommendations seem ok, but allowing self-installs of cable cards, while overall a good thing, could be more trouble than they're worth. Since many real installers have problems with cable cards, I can't wait to see all the calls that are fielded due to failed self-installs of those things. And the itemizing on your bill the cable cards in devices that are provided by the cable company... what? Why? I have such a box - due to the separable security requirement, my standalone STB has a cable card in it. I'm not exactly sure what purpose itemizing that fact on my bill would serve... apart from confusing most consumers. If I lease a box from my cable company, why the hell do I care whether it has a cable card or not? And if I DO care... why do I care that it's spelled out on my bill?


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## loudo (Mar 24, 2005)

No way would I drop DirecTV for FIOS. I had to much trouble with cable systems before, and cable is cable no matter how it is delivered, coaxial or fiber cable. Plus, I wouldn't consider it because they don't offer a RSN Sports pack like DirecTV or DISH does.


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## ziggy29 (Nov 18, 2004)

I'm pretty sure FiOS will never be coming to this little town of 3,500 way out in the boonies.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

If it isn't already in your area...it ain't comin'.


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## ciurca (Apr 14, 2009)

What if the lines are down along the major arteries, but not pulled through the subdivisions or smaller roadways? Is it still possible to get FIOS down the road?

Also, for some strange reason, all the business lines in my area that qualify for VZ's 7.1mbps dsl are coming up ready for FIOS interent, but when you call, no luck.


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## Brennok (Dec 23, 2005)

jpl said:


> Some interesting items in those article you referenced. Some of the FCC recommendations seem ok, but allowing self-installs of cable cards, while overall a good thing, could be more trouble than they're worth. Since many real installers have problems with cable cards, I can't wait to see all the calls that are fielded due to failed self-installs of those things. And the itemizing on your bill the cable cards in devices that are provided by the cable company... what? Why? I have such a box - due to the separable security requirement, my standalone STB has a cable card in it. I'm not exactly sure what purpose itemizing that fact on my bill would serve... apart from confusing most consumers. If I lease a box from my cable company, why the hell do I care whether it has a cable card or not? And if I DO care... why do I care that it's spelled out on my bill?


Most people who buy cable card devices for the most part are more informed about how to do the install than the tech. More often than not we are the ones doing the actual install. On all 4 cable card installs I have been at I did all of them while the tech sat and watched because he had never done one. Most of the problems tend to be bad cards or they don't get hit correctly which is nothing the tech can solve either short of trying another card or asking over the phone for the cable company to hit the cards again. Some companies already offer self install options and you just go to the office and pick them up like a cable box. You then call in the numbers that pop on the screen and it is done.

The thought behind itemization of the cable card I believe is to make it obvious to the customer and also possibly stir some competition. Most people don't know about or take into consideration the cable card when they look at renting the box since it is included. Then when they look at third party devices they have to take into consideration they are going to have to rent a cable card also which they view as another fee instead of one they are already paying. I think their intention is to show the customer you are paying $16 for the Home Media DVR and $3.99 for the cable card. This way when they look at something like TiVo or Moxi they are comparing the $16 fee.


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