# If I shipped software this buggy, I'd be fired...



## mostroad (Oct 1, 2006)

I work at one of the top software companies, and this kind of quality is simply unacceptable for shipping software. I would expect it for a beta product, but I was not expecting to be a beta tester for the HR20.

The weekly software updates are similarly unprofessional. The lack of complete QA testing is really unbelievable. The regressions and new bugs are should easily be caught by adequate real-world and automated testing procedures.

When the bugs are fixed, and the software is of shipping-quality, it should be a nice piece of work, but this kind of development is really pathetic. Companies should not sell software until it is thoroughly tested and ready to ship.


----------



## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

DirecTV could use a few more good software engineers like you!


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

mostroad said:


> I work at one of the top software companies, and this kind of quality is simply unacceptable for shipping software. I would expect it for a beta product, but I was not expecting to be a beta tester for the HR20.


You are quite correct, but ...

I spent 30 years as a software engineer, also for top-notch companies (e.g. IBM). True, we would never have shipped a product with this level of quality, and you are correct in characterizing it as a "Beta" - a fairly _early_ Beta, in fact.

*BUT* in 30 years, the development teams that I worked with hardly ever shipped a product "on schedule". (The official schedules were usually overly optimistic, set by upper management, over the objections of the developers who "knew better". But the schedule slippages were hidden from the outside world, because products were not announced externally until much later than has become customary in recent years. In fact, products were typically not announced until QA certified them, around the end of Beta test.)

DirecTV was faced with a choice. The HR20 software was running late. _WAY_ late. The hardware was already in the pipeline, the marketing and support were already geared up and ready to go ... so what to do? Ship it anyway, meeting external commitments and gaining thousands of unwitting (and annoyed) Beta-testers? Or hold it back, angering thousands of customers, suppliers, and installers?

I'm slanting the alternatives a bit ... the "ship anyway" plan has numerous perils that I have not mentioned, such as "damage to reputation". But clearly, that is the plan they decided upon.

There _are_ some positives for us, here. Our feedback gets a lot more attention (and immediacy) than it would if the product were shipped in a more-or-less "completed" state (in other words, we have a better-than-usual chance to influence the software design decisions, even the "feature set"). And DirecTV found out that the demand for this product was significantly greater than anticipated - which has to be a positive, as it will affect their priorities and resources.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## skierbri10 (Sep 18, 2006)

wmccain said:


> You are quite correct, but ...
> 
> I spent 30 years as a software engineer, also for top-notch companies (e.g. IBM). True, we would never have shipped a product with this level of quality, and you are correct in characterizing it as a "Beta" - a fairly _early_ Beta, in fact.
> 
> ...


That was an excellent assessment. KUDOS!!!


----------



## cybrsurfer (Sep 17, 2006)

When you think of a computer, and entering the BIOS to disable a function or piece of hardware, you tend to get many errors or problems from disabling things in the BIOS.

I think perhaps if DirecTV enables OTA, all circuits on the motherboard will be working as designed and may resolve some issues. The unit is clearly designed to be completely enabled. Trying to keep part of the unit a sleep is certain to cause issues, most electronics are designed to be completely on.

Just a comparison thought. The HR20 is like a small computer. It has a OS, motherboard, and hard drive. So if you look at it like a computer, and you've disabled features or hidden them, then it's going to cause problems.

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking... who knows...


----------



## MikeFL (Oct 5, 2006)

skierbri10 said:


> That was an excellent assessment. KUDOS!!!


I agree this is a good aseessment. Just look at the products that have been delayed this year and the rash of SH** these companies have taken from the press and consumers alike, not to mention the impact on stock value:

Airbus A380
Microsoft Vista
Sony Playstation 3

Also look at the products that were released too early and the way the press and / or consumers has slammed them:

Toshiba HD A1
Samsung Blu-Ray player
DirecTV HR20

To be honest I think companies are in a loose / loose situation from a PR perspective; release on time and be damned or release late and be damned.

I for one am happy that they released early and I can live with the problems of being an early adopter since unlike some other companies DirecTV is at least trying to resolve the problems. Compare that to when you have a problem with your car (more common as the electronics become more complicated) and the dealer (and electronics supplier) does absolutely nothing to fix the problem.

I would also like to question which software producer has no bugs when they release software to the public? Microsoft? SAP? Apple? Symantec? HP?.......


----------



## Slip Jigs (Oct 20, 2006)

I wonder how close they're tracking post launch service and support and if the added cost to them falls within an expected or acceptable range. 

While 100% of the customers may experience some sort of issue due to an instable software release, there are probably a large percentage that doesn't generate a CSR call or a service call, replacement unit etc.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

cybrsurfer said:


> When you think of a computer, and entering the BIOS to disable a function or piece of hardware, you tend to get many errors or problems from disabling things in the BIOS.
> 
> I think perhaps if DirecTV enables OTA, all circuits on the motherboard will be working as designed and may resolve some issues. The unit is clearly designed to be completely enabled. Trying to keep part of the unit a sleep is certain to cause issues, most electronics are designed to be completely on.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right. The last line, anyway.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

cybrsurfer said:


> When you think of a computer, and entering the BIOS to disable a function or piece of hardware, you tend to get many errors or problems from disabling things in the BIOS.
> 
> I think perhaps if DirecTV enables OTA, all circuits on the motherboard will be working as designed and may resolve some issues. The unit is clearly designed to be completely enabled. Trying to keep part of the unit a sleep is certain to cause issues, most electronics are designed to be completely on.
> 
> ...


Or perhaps this will cause so many more problems that the engineers will be completely overwhelmed and take longer to fix basic functions. When troubleshooting a computer problem it is best to turn off anything that could be causing issues (IE safe mode, removing peripherals, turning of ports etc) and then slowly turn them back on one at a time. Having every possible option selected at the same time is a great way to waste time troubleshooting. TOA will be coming; rushing D to activate them will only increase the problems. Does anyone remotely think that the OTA tuners will be trouble free? Imagine the problems activating them now will cause. This forum moves fast enough as it is. I fully expect this thread to be on page 2 by the end of the day.


----------



## EMoMoney (Dec 19, 2005)

walters said:


> You're absolutely right. The last line, anyway.


Glad somebody said it and was not too hard on the guy. Worst analogy I've seen yet.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

EMoMoney said:


> Glad somebody said it and was not too hard on the guy. Worst analogy I've seen yet.


Can't blame the guy for trying, but I completely agree as you can see in my last post.:shrug:


----------



## cawgijoe (Dec 22, 2005)

MikeFL said:


> I agree this is a good aseessment. Just look at the products that have been delayed this year and the rash of SH** these companies have taken from the press and consumers alike, not to mention the impact on stock value:
> 
> Airbus A380
> Microsoft Vista
> ...


Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MikeFL said:


> I agree this is a good aseessment. Just look at the products that have been delayed this year and the rash of SH** these companies have taken from the press and consumers alike, not to mention the impact on stock value:
> 
> Airbus A380
> Microsoft Vista
> ...


Your comments don't represent the right categories.

Most reviews highly praised the HD-A1, slammed the Blu Ray
Most reviews praised Vista, blasted Playstation 3

The common demoninator there on poor ratings was Sony. Enough said.



wmccain said:


> *BUT* in 30 years, the development teams that I worked with hardly ever shipped a product "on schedule". (The official schedules were usually overly optimistic, set by upper management, over the objections of the developers who "knew better". But the schedule slippages were hidden from the outside world, because products were not announced externally until much later than has become customary in recent years. In fact, products were typically not announced until QA certified them, around the end of Beta test.)
> 
> DirecTV was faced with a choice. The HR20 software was running late. _WAY_ late. The hardware was already in the pipeline, the marketing and support were already geared up and ready to go ... so what to do? Ship it anyway, meeting external commitments and gaining thousands of unwitting (and annoyed) Beta-testers? Or hold it back, angering thousands of customers, suppliers, and installers?


So far, yours is the only realistic assessment here. You are right on. It was a business decision to get it to market. I happen to have 2 of these HR20's and have been using them for over 6 weeks with virtually NO problems. I know others in the same situation. Obviously some other folks (who tend to be far more vocal, somewhat justifiably) have not a the same great experience that many others of us have had.

The glass is half empty mentality - shouldn't have rushed it to market, frequent updates, perceived instability.

The glass is half full mentality - got to market so customers could enjoy as soon as possible, frequent updates demonstate product commitment to get it right for everyone, stable for the vast majority of users to date.

The glass is completely full - your view, my view, the realistic view - the glass is half full of water and half full of air - while most have had positive experiences, there are obviously some who have not, and clearly there is aggressive work going on to rectify those remaining issues for the minority of customers.

*Thank you *for your "real world" reasoning and assessment. It's nice to know not everyone is a ranting or whiney perfectionist for new technology that's just on the market 60 days.

By the way - yes, Microsoft, IBM, HP, and all those other companies *do have *similar buggy products out there. Maybe there's a little less passion for a bad printer or specific software application than for an HD DVR that people use in their home (some daily), and less people choose to scream about it 10 times a day.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

MikeFL said:


> I would also like to question which software producer has no bugs when they release software to the public? Microsoft? SAP? Apple? Symantec? HP?.......


Dont' forget TiVo! Early units like my T-60 had many problems including only having one tuner activated (Hmmm much like the OTA issue).


----------



## jschuman (Sep 27, 2006)

jgrade said:


> Dont' forget TiVo! Early units like my T-60 had many problems including only having one tuner activated (Hmmm much like the OTA issue).


Yep, I remember those days. I also remember how awesome it was to get the second tuner active.

With the HR20 I'm just trying to keep an optimistic viewpoint and post here when I have troubles/questions. There are lots of good workarounds/features to explore with this box.

The frequency of software updates is _good_. It means that Directv is working on the software, fixing bugs and generally _cares_ about making this receiver better.


----------



## Starrbuck (Jun 25, 2004)

As software engineers, we'd be fired for releasing code like this. That's because we work for important companies, like major hardware/software vendors, banks, financial services companies, etc. Remember this is just television. It's entertainment. Relax and the bugs will be fixed in time.


----------



## ToddD (Jun 14, 2006)

mostroad said:


> I work at one of the top software companies, and this kind of quality is simply unacceptable for shipping software. I would expect it for a beta product, but I was not expecting to be a beta tester for the HR20.
> 
> The weekly software updates are similarly unprofessional. The lack of complete QA testing is really unbelievable. The regressions and new bugs are should easily be caught by adequate real-world and automated testing procedures.
> 
> When the bugs are fixed, and the software is of shipping-quality, it should be a nice piece of work, but this kind of development is really pathetic. Companies should not sell software until it is thoroughly tested and ready to ship.


Sadly from what I've seen reported here, Beta quality on the HR 20 would be a godsend! These reports look more like Alpha quality to me. I beta test for quite a few software providers and not one of them has asked me to test anything that locks up my system or has frequent reboots.....


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

wmccain said:


> There _are_ some positives for us, here. Our feedback gets a lot more attention (and immediacy) than it would if the product were shipped in a more-or-less "completed" state (in other words, we have a better-than-usual chance to influence the software design decisions, even the "feature set"). And DirecTV found out that the demand for this product was significantly greater than anticipated - which has to be a positive, as it will affect their priorities and resources.
> 
> William C. McCain
> Palo Alto, California


Very, very good statement on the situation and I hope everyone here on the forum gets a chance to read it.

Call us beta testers or not but I really, really like the opportunity to work about as closely with the DirecTV engineers/programmer as we'll ever get. They are reading here and our posts *are* making a difference in the direction of the product and the software updates. Me like.


----------



## ToddD (Jun 14, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Very, very good statement on the situation and I hope everyone here on the forum gets a chance to read it.
> 
> Call us beta testers or not but I really, really like the opportunity to work about as closely with the DirecTV engineers/programmer as we'll ever get. They are reading here and our posts *are* making a difference in the direction of the product and the software updates. Me like.


You do make a great point....It is NICE to see DirecTv paying attention and responding.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

I guess I am getting old and crotchety but would of prefer a stable system over this form of indirect feedback thru a forum about the serious stability and usability issues. None of the stability issues or code defects associated with trick plays needed any external feedback. Any DVR needs to be able to Record, Play, FF, RW, Pause, Schedule and not crash, 99.999% of the time. D* did not need feedback to know this, this kind of functionality needs to work every time all the time for every one. If they had the basics of a DVR working and there were some minor glitches or feedback on how their UI could be better and that feedback got back to D* for enhancement, that would be great. I don't understand why it is such a good thing that D* released a DVR that can't reliably do DVR functionality, do I need to provide feedback to Boeing on making a plane fly, do I need to tell GM how to make a car go safely? Why is a positive thing that we need to tell DirecTV that their DVR is not reliable and has problems doing basic DVR functionality? The situation we are in is far different from telling GM "you know it would be nice if there was a cup holder here", it is more like telling GM you know "I need your car not to stop working when I am driving on the highway". I have not found this, for a lack of a better name, involuntary beta program, a positive experience.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

btmoore said:


> I guess I am getting old and crotchety but would of prefer a stable system over this form of indirect feedback thru a forum about the serious stability and usability issues. None of the stability issues or code defects associated with trick plays needed any external feedback. Any DVR needs to be able to Record, Play, FF, RW, Pause, Schedule and not crash, 99.999% of the time. D* did not need feedback to know this, this kind of functionality needs to work every time all the time for every one. If they had the basics of a DVR working and there were some minor glitches or feedback on how their UI could be better and that feedback got back to D* for enhancement, that would be great. I don't understand why it is such a good thing that D* released a DVR that can't reliably do DVR functionality, do I need to provide feedback to Boeing on making a plane fly, do I need to tell GM how to make a car go safely? Why is a positive thing that we need to tell DirecTV that their DVR is not reliable and has problems doing basic DVR functionality? The situation we are in is far different from telling GM "you know it would be nice if there was a cup holder here", it is more like telling GM you know "I need your car not to stop working when I am driving on the highway". I have not found this, for a lack of a better name, involuntary beta program, a positive experience.


I don't think anyone is suggesting its a "GOOD THING" that D* released the box now. Certainly none of us are running around jumping for joy, running in the streets, announcing to the world "I just got my D* POS installed!".

The suggestions that "we get to work as closely as we ever will with D* engineers" or "we have some input on the feature set", etc, are a silver lining in a dark cloud.

I'm sure if you asked 100 people on these forums if they'd rather have an HR20 that worked flawlessly, or one that works intermittently, all 100 would take the flawless one.

However, the REALITY of the situation is that's not the case for all of us. Some of us have that flawless HR20. I have one show that won't record, but it's not important, it's a late night garbage show that I thought looked interesting. Granted, I'd like it to tape, but for some reason, that one recording is flawed. Aside from that, I haven't had a single lockup, reboot, missed recording, messed up recording, etc.

I have not beta tested for anyone, at any point, but I have to imagine that it must be maddening to a point for D* when they know there are boxes out there performing near flawlessly, and there are others that are so bad they're hardly useful.

I tend to think that when the decision was made to roll out the product early, they might not have known exactly how incomplete it was. IF they were having mostly successful tests in their own testing (which is entirely possible, given the number of people we know are having successful operation in the field), it's entirely possible that they decided to roll out partially complete knowing there would be SOME problems, but not realized the expanse of those problems.

Just my .02, as a layperson looking at it from the outside.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting its a "GOOD THING" that D* released the box now. Certainly none of us are running around jumping for joy, running in the streets, announcing to the world "I just got my D* POS installed!".
> 
> The suggestions that "we get to work as closely as we ever will with D* engineers" or "we have some input on the feature set", etc, are a silver lining in a dark cloud.
> 
> ...


Stable and flawless are 2 different things, please do not put your words in my mouth.


----------



## redbirdruss (Aug 20, 2006)

My biggest issue with this product is it cannot execute it key objective: Recording High Definition MPEG 4 TV Shows.

This is absolutely unacceptable and must be resolved immediately. If this isn't resolved by next week, I am dumping DirecTV and moving to Charter Cable.


----------



## Andrew_J_M (Feb 11, 2005)

redbirdruss said:


> My biggest issue with this product is it cannot execute it key objective: Recording High Definition MPEG 4 TV Shows.
> 
> This is absolutely unacceptable and must be resolved immediately. If this isn't resolved by next week, I am dumping DirecTV and moving to Charter Cable.


Are you sure you have an HR20? Mine does just that and very well. Sometimes playback is a bit buggy but mine always records what I want.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

redbirdruss said:


> My biggest issue with this product is it cannot execute it key objective: Recording High Definition MPEG 4 TV Shows.
> 
> This is absolutely unacceptable and must be resolved immediately. If this isn't resolved by next week, I am dumping DirecTV and moving to Charter Cable.


Whay can't you record HD shows? I record them all the time.


----------



## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Andrew_J_M said:


> Are you sure you have an HR20? Mine does just that and very well. Sometimes playback is a bit buggy but mine always records what I want.


The food is terrible but the portions are huge!


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

jgrade said:


> Whay can't you record HD shows? I record them all the time.


Here are some of the documented bugs regarding recording HD / MPEG4 / Locals but I have also seen the same thing on SD too.
Records but are unwatchable
No recording, history shows "partial"

Here is more documentation
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67998&highlight=partial


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Stable and flawless are 2 different things, please do not put your words in my mouth.


I'm not quite sure how I put words in your mouth, but let me try to clarify my post a little for you.

I agree with you that D* released a product that, for many, has serious issues. I also don't doubt for a minute, as many have said, that in other work environments releasing a product in this state of development would result in some heads rolling.

My use of the term "flawless" was just to suggest that if you look at the two extremes, we would all pick the flawless extreme over the other alternative. We all want the same things you want and I don't think anyone here would suggest that the current state of affairs is a "good thing". My choice of words was in no way trying to suggest that you are demanding a box that performs flawlessly.


----------



## skyboysea (Nov 1, 2002)

mostroad said:


> I work at one of the top software companies, and this kind of quality is simply unacceptable for shipping software.
> ...
> When the bugs are fixed, and the software is of shipping-quality, it should be a nice piece of work, but this kind of development is really pathetic. Companies should not sell software until it is thoroughly tested and ready to ship.


I don't know who you work for but I worked for a top software company and know people working for other top software companies and it is common that the decision to ship is made by marketing and bean counters, not software engineers. Their objective is to ship something that bring in money no matter how many bugs are left to fix. I saw some alpha software becoming beta just moving tens of thousands of bugs to the next milestone. And the same process was used all the way to shipping with bugs that never get fixed because the pressure is on adding new features, not fix bugs.
Since it doesn't look like many people returned the HR-20 because it was not performing as expected and D* got some good revenue out of it, how can you say what they did was wrong? Maybe not up to your personal standards yes, but wrong not. It is not up to my standard either, that's why I'll wait for it to be more stable before I buy one (as I never install any new software in a production environment until it has been around for a while, no matter who produce it).


----------



## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

It is true that the HR20 has a while to go before it is a completely stable machine but you have to admit, because of our feedback and the dedication of the engineers at DirecTV, fixes are coming at a very fast pace. I would suspect that by the time the DVR reaches a very large userbase, it will be a fairly stable DVR with many of the bugs squashed thanks to us.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

btmoore said:


> Here are some of the documented bugs regarding recording HD / MPEG4 / Locals but I have also seen the same thing on SD too.
> Records but are unwatchable
> No recording, history shows "partial"
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=67998&highlight=partial


I know the issues, and I have been lucky to suffer none of them thus far (HD recording), but the original post seemed to me to be 100% failure. I could be wrong, but that is what it seemed.


----------



## whiz kid (Oct 16, 2006)

This is a funny thread, moreso I expect to those of us who have careers in the technology field (which I expect is most of us). Either way, most of the trade-offs and options have been shared here, but here are a few more to consider:

1. Embedded HW/SW devices are often released in a state where the manufacturer actually thinks they are releasing a STABLE product, yet it's not. Don't be so quick to assume that D* released this product knowing it was beta quality. Products like this are almost always a reflection of their test/QA function. Simply, if the test plans and resources were limited compared to the true complexity of the device then it could very well be that the HR20 passed with flying colors against the criteria which was deemed "complete" inside the test organization -- only to hit the "real world" and quickly learn that there are far more variables which can affect the stability and performance of the unit than anticipated.

2. Also, remember -- test is almost ALWAYS under resourced, it is hard to see the short-term payback of a mega-buck lab environment and corresponding staff for a device which is not "mission critical" (nobody dies if the HR20 doesn't record Lost this week, although you might think so by some reactions...)

Does anyone know if the HW and SW are both being done internally by D* staff? Are portions being outsourced? To where (india, etc?).

I just wouldn't be so quick to assume that some conscious decision was made to release early and deal with the bugs...


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

whiz kid said:


> Does anyone know if the HW and SW are both being done internally by D* staff? Are portions being outsourced? To where (india, etc?).


The Hardware Assembly is handled by a company called Pace.
Most of the assembly (at least the initial production runs) where done in Mexico.

The software... the development team is made up of DirecTV employees, based in their offices in LA (for the most part)


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ouijal said:


> The food is terrible but the portions are huge!


Uh, the joke actually goes:

Two old ladies are in a restaurant. One complains, "You know, the food here is just terrible." The other shakes her head and adds, "And such small portions. ...


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

skyboysea said:


> I don't know who you work for but I worked for a top software company and know people working for other top software companies and it is common that the decision to ship is made by marketing and bean counters, not software engineers. Their objective is to ship something that bring in money no matter how many bugs are left to fix. I saw some alpha software becoming beta just moving tens of thousands of bugs to the next milestone. And the same process was used all the way to shipping with bugs that never get fixed because the pressure is on adding new features, not fix bugs.
> Since it doesn't look like many people returned the HR-20 because it was not performing as expected and D* got some good revenue out of it, how can you say what they did was wrong? Maybe not up to your personal standards yes, but wrong not. It is not up to my standard either, that's why I'll wait for it to be more stable before I buy one (as I never install any new software in a production environment until it has been around for a while, no matter who produce it).


I'd love to see D*'s "good revenue" figures on the HR20 release. Honestly. Between the giveaways, credits and replacements, not to mention the added costs associated with the software fixes, it would be interesting to get those numbers. Maybe in their next quarterly statement? Not sure. But my sense is that this hasn't been a profit bonanza for them, despite the shortage. Maybe at a later date, when more people have it and it's finally stable.


----------



## jgrade (Oct 1, 2006)

whiz kid said:


> 2. Also, remember -- test is almost ALWAYS under resourced, it is hard to see the short-term payback of a mega-buck lab environment and corresponding staff for a device which is not "mission critical" (nobody dies if the HR20 doesn't record Lost this week, although you might think so by some reactions...)


How about the insurmountable task of testing this machine with every television/monitor, with every video connection (HDMI, component, s-video and composite), every A/V receiver, every audio connection, every conceivable way to connect said video and audio, along with every type of dish, splitter, view of sky, coax type, length and quality. Add to that the stupid (not knowingly) things we users do that the developers couldn't possibly dream we would ever do.

The only solution would be to release this into the wild and get feedback to fix the problems as quickly as possible.

No I don't work for D nor do I own any stock and certainly have not love for them. In fact, I would gladly trade down to cable if Comcast would release a TiVo box. I like the HR-20 and think the dev team is doing their best..


----------



## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Uh, the joke actually goes:
> 
> Two old ladies are in a restaurant. One complains, "You know, the food here is just terrible." The other shakes her head and adds, "And such small portions. ...


I rushed that joke out the door before it was ready and hope to fix it over the next year or so with a series of updates.


----------



## Alvin Nuckleglazer (Oct 7, 2006)

redbirdruss said:


> My biggest issue with this product is it cannot execute it key objective: Recording High Definition MPEG 4 TV Shows.
> 
> This is absolutely unacceptable and must be resolved immediately. If this isn't resolved by next week, I am dumping DirecTV and moving to Charter Cable.


i didnt know that was its key objective but anyway i can record my mpeg4 locals just fine. user error much?


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

jgrade said:


> Dont' forget TiVo! Early units like my T-60 had many problems including only having one tuner activated (Hmmm much like the OTA issue).


True.

Problem is, they are _replacing_ a very stable and reliable HR10-250 (at least before the 6.3 upgrade ) with their in-house solution, so in some respects they've set the bar higher for themselves.

Second problem is that the experiences of many with their in-house SD DVR has not inspired a lot of confidence in their ability to deliver a bug-free and reliable DVR.

However, I'm fervently hoping that they can get there...and when OTA is turned on I am likely to give the HR20 a shot.


----------



## Kapeman (Dec 22, 2003)

ouijal said:


> I rushed that joke out the door before it was ready and hope to fix it over the next year or so with a series of updates.


Good answer!

I thought your original version of the joke was intentional, as it is more appropriate that way!


----------



## Mike770 (Mar 1, 2004)

Starrbuck said:


> As software engineers, we'd be fired for releasing code like this. That's because we work for important companies, like major hardware/software vendors, banks, financial services companies, etc. Remember this is just television. It's entertainment. Relax and the bugs will be fixed in time.


I Agree!


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ouijal said:


> I rushed that joke out the door before it was ready and hope to fix it over the next year or so with a series of updates.


LOL


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ouijal said:


> I rushed that joke out the door before it was ready and hope to fix it over the next year or so with a series of updates.


It's funny either way.


----------



## MikeFL (Oct 5, 2006)

skierbri10 said:


> That was an excellent assessment. KUDOS!!!





bwaldron said:


> True.
> 
> Problem is, they are _replacing_ a very stable and reliable HR10-250 (at least before the 6.3 upgrade ) with their in-house solution, so in some respects they've set the bar higher for themselves.
> 
> ...


I had nothing but problems with my HR10. drop-outs, pixelation, couldn't sync sound with my pre/pro. Had a "tech" out lots of times but could not determine the problem. Eventually it would not reboot at all. Now I have an HR20 and it is behaving much better than the HR10 did. Maybe I am the exception?


----------



## spunkyvision (Oct 12, 2006)

> Problem is, they are replacing a very stable and reliable HR10-250 (at least before the 6.3 upgrade ) with their in-house solution, so in some respects they've set the bar higher for themselves.


I agree 100%..If this was our first DVR it probably wouldnt be so bad but with Tivo setting the bar so high it is making this a difficult transition.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

MikeFL said:


> I had nothing but problems with my HR10. drop-outs, pixelation, couldn't sync sound with my pre/pro. Had a "tech" out lots of times but could not determine the problem. Eventually it would not reboot at all. Now I have an HR20 and it is behaving much better than the HR10 did. Maybe I am the exception?


I think maybe you are. In well over a year of operation I have never had a single problem with my HR10 (until the 6.3 upgrade, which I got rid of and immediately re-imaged back to 3.1). The HR10 w/ 3.1 is a slow machine, but I think a majority of people have found it to be reliable. There was a problem with the HDMI card on early units, but other than that I don't know of any widespread issues. There are going to be individual units w/ problematic hard drives or other QC issues, of course.

Glad your HR20 is working out for you. I will likely be joining the group of HR20 owners at some point in the foreseeable future.


----------



## ouijal (Aug 22, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> i didnt know that was its key objective but anyway i can record my mpeg4 locals just fine. user error much?


Are you a D* CSR?


----------



## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

I agree the software quality as far as basic functionality leaves a lot to be desired. As for the software design - this is the worst UI I've seen in quite a while.


----------



## 3rdGenBruin (Oct 24, 2006)

Bizarroterl said:


> I agree the software quality as far as basic functionality leaves a lot to be desired. As for the software design - this is the worst UI I've seen in quite a while.


I could not disagree more with your assessment of the UI. Compared to what? Tivo?

Just of the top of my head, here are the things that are vast UI improvements:

MiniGuide - Sometimes I want to see what's on next without leaving the show I'm watching

Menu - again, I can get to MyVOD without leaving the show I'm watching

One touch record, 2 touch series record - why in the world do I need to leave the guide in Tivo to record a show? The red circles that indicate a show is being recorded are much better than anything Tivo has done with their box

12 hour jump in the guide - makes it really easy to go a couple days out

Couple that with the system response time and I MUCH prefer this box to Tivo.

I know stability has been a problem for some, but I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. No resets. No BSODs. No missed recordings. My only issues are:


No 30s skip - I hate that they haven't (read: won't) implemented this

Time to change channels in HD

Pixelation during trick play

So what exactly about the UI is so bad?


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

3rdGenBruin said:


> 12 hour jump in the guide - makes it really easy to go a couple days out


Just an additional note on that.
You can jump to any date/time in the guide.

Just hit Menu->Date&Time


----------



## 3rdGenBruin (Oct 24, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Just an additional note on that.
> You can jump to any date/time in the guide.
> 
> Just hit Menu->Date&Time


I knew that, but what I like about the 12 hour jump is that you don't need to go the menu. Because of how responsive the guide is, you can jump 2 days ahead really, really quickly.

That is my big beef with the Tivo UI. You need to go to a menu to do anything. What I liked about UTV and I what I'm liking about the HR20 is that you can access a lot of the funcionality without leaving the screen you are on, whether that is live TV, a recorded show or the guide.

If you want to pass along a cool feature idea to your friends over at D*, how about when you are in the guide if you hit a number then slip, you instantly jump that many days in the guide.


----------



## MikeFL (Oct 5, 2006)

3rdGenBruin said:


> I could not disagree more with your assessment of the UI. Compared to what? Tivo?
> 
> Just of the top of my head, here are the things that are vast UI improvements:
> 
> ...


I agree, I think the UI is pretty good once you get used to the fact that it is different to the TIVO. I did like the List Guide as you could see more programing for each channel, but I can live with the DirecTV guide. I lot of people complain about having to press 2 buttons to get to the guide, but in comparison to switch the HR10 to stanby it was a minimum of 3 presses MENU - PAGE DOWN (to Standby) - SELECT (to switch it off). I set a macro to do this on my MX3000, but if by accident you were already in menu and pressed the macro, it would really screw things up.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> I'd love to see D*'s "good revenue" figures on the HR20 release. Honestly. Between the giveaways, credits and replacements, not to mention the added costs associated with the software fixes, it would be interesting to get those numbers. Maybe in their next quarterly statement? Not sure. But my sense is that this hasn't been a profit bonanza for them, despite the shortage. Maybe at a later date, when more people have it and it's finally stable.


Well, we have to be honest here. They are losing their shirts on the HR20 hardware wise. As they do with most if not all of their hardware. Where they are making money is that 2 year commitment to $50 a month or more, possibly much more since the HR20 is an HD box so you'll get those extra packages.


----------



## JBernardK (Aug 16, 2006)

Chris Blount said:


> It is true that the HR20 has a while to go before it is a completely stable machine but you have to admit, because of our feedback and the dedication of the engineers at DirecTV, fixes are coming at a very fast pace. I would suspect that by the time the DVR reaches a very large userbase, it will be a fairly stable DVR with many of the bugs squashed thanks to us.


Well the R15 has been out for a year or so and it still has major problems. It seem every time they fix a bug they intoduce new ones. I suspect the same thing will happen here.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

ouijal said:


> Are you a D* CSR?


Thats funny too.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, we have to be honest here. They are losing their shirts on the HR20 hardware wise. As they do with most if not all of their hardware. Where they are making money is that 2 year commitment to $50 a month or more, possibly much more since the HR20 is an HD box so you'll get those extra packages.


I was told on this forum that the only commitment made is for two years of the HD programming package, at $11 a month. I thought that I made a two-year commitment for the entire programming package. To tell you the truth, I just said "Fine with me" without even thinking, back when they literally gave me an H20 and the AL9 dish, a month before the HR20 (I had a solid Zenith MPEG2 D* receiver before that for HD). I figured, why not? I'm going to stick with D* anyway, and I probably will in all honesty (unless FIOS gets here and has a proven HD DVR). Can you clarify the two-year commitment parameters? Is it like a cellphone contract? So you aren't on the hook for your monthly fee (in my case, $113 a month), just the HD amount for 24 months?


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> I was told on this forum that the only commitment made is for two years of the HD programming package, at $11 a month. I thought that I made a two-year commitment for the entire programming package. To tell you the truth, I just said "Fine with me" without even thinking, back when they literally gave me an H20 and the AL9 dish, a month before the HR20 (I had a solid Zenith MPEG2 D* receiver before that for HD). I figured, why not? I'm going to stick with D* anyway, and I probably will in all honesty (unless FIOS gets here and has a proven HD DVR). Can you clarify the two-year commitment parameters? Is it like a cellphone contract? So you aren't on the hook for your monthly fee (in my case, $113 a month), just the HD amount for 24 months?


That's why I said 2 years at $50 a month since that is around what the base package is. Maybe it's actually $45 a month and I think there is a Spanish one that is only $39. But even if the only commitment was to the HD package at $10 a month, you still have to have Total Choice anyway so you are really still committing to it as well. 

In any case, DirecTV certainly doesn't make any money on hardware, never has anytime recently. That's why they basically give it away. They want your monthly subscription plus anything else you might get like Sunday Ticket.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> That's why I said 2 years at $50 a month since that is around what the base package is. Maybe it's actually $45 a month and I think there is a Spanish one that is only $39. But even if the only commitment was to the HD package at $10 a month, you still have to have Total Choice anyway so you are really still committing to it as well.
> 
> In any case, DirecTV certainly doesn't make any money on hardware, never has anytime recently. That's why they basically give it away. They want your monthly subscription plus anything else you might get like Sunday Ticket.


Exactly what I was trying to tell the person who was saying how can you complain if it's free. It's not free, it's just the cost of doing business to them. They make their money on the sub fees, ST, etc.


----------



## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Exactly what I was trying to tell the person who was saying how can you complain if it's free. It's not free, it's just the cost of doing business to them. They make their money on the sub fees, ST, etc.


If I were having the problems some are having and I paid 299, I'd complain a LOT.

That said, I got mine for next to nothing and have had very few (minor) problems). Actually the biggest "discomfort" I have at this point is the lack of OTA, and I need to follow my own advice, "patience"....as at least it isn't a buggy feature.:icon_lol:


----------



## DrA (Oct 25, 2006)

Without HR 20 it was not possible to record local sport teams in HD on ch 96 mpeg-4. Either 96 with bugs or no 96 until they fix all the bugs until perhaps Christmas. I take 96 with bugs anytime. You can not have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## bluedogok (Sep 9, 2006)

It isn't just D* or the software industry that faces unrealistic deadline pressure to send a product out before it is ready, it is pretty much the standard MO in every business. That is what happens when finance people control everything. We are sending projects (architecture) out in such a rapid timeframe that it can't help but come back and bite all of us in change orders. 

The sickening thing is on most of these projects the site development was done 6 months prior and they sit on it trying to get it financed for 4 months and then expect us to do CD's in 2 months while working on 2 other projects under construction. That way they get to blame everyone else instead of taking the blame. Just the American way anymore I guess......


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Most reviews highly praised the HD-A1, slammed the Blu Ray.


You must have seen a whole different set of reviews than I did! I mostly looked at reviews of the premium model, the HD-A2, but they all said it took _forever_ to boot, _forever_ to load a DVD, and crashed a lot. The consensus was, that it was rushed to market, unfinished. But there is now a firmware update available, and I understand that it is a big improvement.

My impression of the reviews was that the Samsung Blu-Ray was more stable, at least on initial release, but still imperfect. And _Sony_ chose the "other path": they have kept delaying their Blu-Ray player (along with the PS3).



whiz kid said:


> Don't be so quick to assume that D* released this product knowing it was beta quality.


There's no way they could not have known the product was unfinished, and that makes it a Beta (if not an Alpha). They released the HR20 with the OTA tuners disabled (either unimplemented or too buggy to expose) and with the eSata capability unimplemented. And while it is possible that some portions of the functionality may have "passed QA" (there must have been some kind of "sign off", with reservations) there is no doubt in my mind that the developers still had (and still have) a _long_ list of issues to address.

As others have pointed out, the good news is that they _are_ addressing those issues - and quite diligently. Also as others have pointed out, the hardware revenue from this (or any other DirecTV box) is unlikely to generate a profit (after deducting manufacturing and support, let alone marketing, costs). The two-year commitment does help their bottom line, as they ultimately make their money selling service, not hardware.

But the _real_ value of the HR20 is in simply "staying competitive". Without this box, together with the non-DVR H20, they would be unable to roll out all the new _national_ HD channels that are "on the horizon", let alone local HD channels. They are already behind Dish and most cable companies in the number of HD channels they carry, and are working hard to "catch up". You can bet their decisions are being made with the "long range" in mind, not the "short term".

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

DrA said:


> Without HR 20 it was not possible to record local sport teams in HD on ch 96 mpeg-4. Either 96 with bugs or no 96 until they fix all the bugs until perhaps Christmas. I take 96 with bugs anytime.


Agreed. I watch college sports, not pro sports, and I erroneously thought only pro games were being carried in HD on my "RSN" (Fox Sports Bay Area). To my surprise, the recent Cal-Washington football game was in HD on channel 96, and only my HR20 could receive it! (Despite a half dozen other HD receivers in the house, active and inactive, but no cable TV.)

(Sorry *3rdGenBruin*. I'm the middle generation of three generations of graduates from UC Berkeley. Cal is doing quite well in football, thank you, and I fully expect we will prevail against your Bruins a week from tomorrow.)

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## love that tv (Jul 8, 2006)

DrA said:


> Without HR 20 it was not possible to record local sport teams in HD on ch 96 mpeg-4. Either 96 with bugs or no 96 until they fix all the bugs until perhaps Christmas. I take 96 with bugs anytime. You can not have your cake and eat it too.


i agree, everyone was complaining about not having a HD DVR, and now your saying that it wasnt ready. make up your minds! either way you be complaining. give them the benifit of the doubt, at least theres a new fix about ever week to make it more stable. its not being ignored.

so everybody needs to relax!


----------



## Greenbay4 (Oct 10, 2006)

love that tv said:


> at least theres a new fix about ever week to make it more stable.


Every Week..... Yes.
More Stable..... ???


----------



## ToddD (Jun 14, 2006)

love that tv said:


> at least theres a new fix about ever week to make it more stable.


Sorry those are mutually exclusive terms. You can't refer to something as "more stable", if it needs new updates every week.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

ToddD said:


> Sorry those are mutually exclusive terms. You can't refer to something as "more stable", if it needs new updates every week.


He meant to say Stabler.:hurah: :lol: :lol:


----------



## laxcoach (Dec 7, 2005)

wmccain said:


> You are quite correct, but ...
> 
> I spent 30 years as a software engineer, also for top-notch companies (e.g. IBM). True, we would never have shipped a product with this level of quality....


From your statement, it doesn't sound like you are still at IBM, but I ahve to take issue with your characterizations of D* vs. IBM.

I beg to differ. WSAD 5.x was buggy as hell. WAS is ok but.... The JDK I have the pleasure of using, 64bit JVM on OS400 v5r3, is *horrendous*. Furthermore, I have found more bugs in the v5r3 DB2 distributed transaction layer than you would ever believe. Not one has been addressed in a patch. I can even recreate problems were the db2 engine spits out a "machine error" via JDBC. I was told that we were the first shop to "actually use all these technologies at the same time."

I'm not complaining. I'm a contractor, so it worked out quite well for me. But, let's not cast stones. IBM's support doesn't spit out patches, even for their best customers.

(BTW, my tagline has been the same for a year


----------



## mckeemike505 (May 11, 2006)

Are the people who are having the most problems the ones with the -s after the model number. Because I have 2 one I got over a month ago and have not had any problems with it. And the second HR20 that I got 2 weeks ago that was made this month has an -s after the HR20-700s is this how it is for the people with problems or does it matter? Just wanting to get a sense as to how I can have one work great and the other have problems atleast a couple times a week.

Thanks,

Mike


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

jgrade said:


> How about the insurmountable task of testing this machine with every television/monitor, with every video connection (HDMI, component, s-video and composite), every A/V receiver, every audio connection, every conceivable way to connect said video and audio, along with every type of dish, splitter, view of sky, coax type, length and quality. Add to that the stupid (not knowingly) things we users do that the developers couldn't possibly dream we would ever do.
> 
> The only solution would be to release this into the wild and get feedback to fix the problems as quickly as possible.


.. and piss off a large number of soon-to-be former customers!



> No I don't work for D nor do I own any stock and certainly have not love for them. In fact, I would gladly trade down to cable if Comcast would release a TiVo box. I like the HR-20 and think the dev team is doing their best..


THEY chose to give TiVo the boot, because they were so smug that they coud do it themselves, and even bragged that it would "be better than TiVo."

Funny. Every time I pressed a button, or scheduled a recording on any of the six TiVos that I have owned, they ALWAYS worked flawlessly!!


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> i didnt know that was its key objective but anyway i can record my mpeg4 locals just fine. user error much?


Well, there's a large portion of 27 pages worth of posts that would disagree with your flawless experience.

Oh .. and those 27 pages? That's just for the most recent update!

There are MANY, MANY people who are having serious problems with this machine, ESPECIALLY with the mpeg4 locals!


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

laxcoach said:


> From your statement, it doesn't sound like you are still at IBM, but I have to take issue with your characterizations of D* vs. IBM. I beg to differ. WSAD 5.x ...


I left IBM in 1981. I was there for 12 years during the "heyday of the mainframe" (1969-1981). The year I left was the year that the IBM PC was introduced. I "retired" from the software industry in 1999.

In those days of yesteryear, IBM produced some fairly high-quality software. And a few real stinkers, too, but not on _my_ watch! Though it is "all but forgotten" now, _all_ IBM software before the IBM PC was "open source" (the source code for all IBM software was available on both microfiche and magnetic tape, although the licensing terms were very strict).

IBM's first non-PC "executable code only" product, APL2, was released in 1982, shortly after I left. I _was_ involved with APL (and related products), but not with the decision to keep the source code unpublished! DB2 was also developed at the lab where I worked, but not by me, and it was first released after I left.

I am *absolutely not* "casting stones" at DirecTV! I believe that they made the right decision to release the HR20 when they did, even knowing that the software was unfinished. As I said in my _first_ post in this thread, software development nearly always takes longer than the schedules set by management. (See Windows Vista for the example _du jour_.)

The main difference between nowadays and "yesteryear" is that nobody can keep a project secret anymore. Schedules get leaked, very publicly, or even formally announced in (for example) CES press releases. Then when the schedule is not met, as it usually is not, the vendor has to decide whether or not to release an unfinished product or hold off until it is in better shape. It's a "Hobson's Choice", a lose-lose proposition. And numerous recent examples exist of vendors who chose each of the two options.

Only, sometimes, the downside of one choice is clearly "less bad" than the downside of the other. In the case of the HR20, as I said, I believe that DirecTV _did_ choose the "least unfavorable alternative".

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> THEY chose to give TiVo the boot, because they were so smug that they could do it themselves, and even bragged that it would "be better than TiVo."


I agree that dumping TiVo looks to us like a bad decision, but we really don't know what went on "behind the scenes". Probably there was plenty of fault on _both_ sides: arrogance and greed on the part of DirecTV, inflexibility and greed on the part of TiVo.

I was a very early adopter of TiVo (mid 1999) and I still have four of their boxes. I would have preferred that DirecTV had continued the TiVo platform, as it sets a high standard for reliability and "user friendliness".

On the other hand, as others in this thread have pointed out, TiVo has become a bit "set in their ways" and apparently not open to new and better ways of doing things (in the software industry, this used to be called "NIH", which stands for "not invented here"). Others have offered lists of numerous improvements that the HR20 has that even the latest TiVo (the Series3) does not. Two of them stand out in my mind: the ability to record directly from the program guide, and the ability to navigate menus while still watching the video and hearing the audio.

William C. McCain
Palo Alto, California


----------



## wmccain (Jan 9, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> There are MANY, MANY people who are having serious problems with this machine, ESPECIALLY with the mpeg4 locals!


I enjoyed the USC-OSU game (a cliff-hanger of an upset) in MPEG4 HD on Saturday afternoon on my local "RSN".

Worked just fine - other than the fact that just before the game I had to use the "red button" to reboot the HR20 because it had locked up and would not change channels (in fact, would not respond to any buttons on the front panel or the remote).

Oh well ... you have to take the bad with the good. I do believe "all this will pass" and we will eventually have a very nice HD DVR ... sometime around the next vernal equinox (my seat-of-the-pants estimate).

Bill


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

NFLnut said:


> Well, there's a large portion of 27 pages worth of posts that would disagree with your flawless experience.
> 
> Oh .. and those 27 pages? That's just for the most recent update!
> 
> There are MANY, MANY people who are having serious problems with this machine, ESPECIALLY with the mpeg4 locals!


Unfortunately, many of these posts are redundant "over and over" statements from the same people. I suspect the 10's of thousands of people without problems don't take the time to share that good news (why bother). Only a handfull here post our no problem experiences just to offset the distorted 27 pages you reference. Also, its interesting to note that the source of these problems can be cables, poor installs, HDMI incompatibility (the biggest % and often based on problems with TV set HDMI generational issues no matter what the source), and other factors, many of whikch are not rooted in the HR20. There's 2 units here at my location - *not one problem *scheduling, recording, or playing here. I can also testify for 12 others who have the same excellent experience. Maybe I they should start posting their counter-experiences. With another firmware update coming very, very soon, many of the remainng nuisance issues may also reduce the HMDI and related problems. This box is 60 days old and having 10's of thousands of units out there within that short timeframe - certainly, even if it's 98% perfect...there's 200-400 bad boxes out there.


----------



## fdeitz (Sep 23, 2006)

They can't even get the time zone change right. A manual recurring recording I had scheduled for 1:30 PM Monday - Friday is now showing up as 12:30 PM! So of course I delete that and put it back in for the correct time. Guess what, now we're back to the old problem where it won't schedule that recording again. It took a lot of work to get it scheduled in the first place. Can't set a series record for this show since it doesn't recognize the repeats correctly and would record it 3 times a day. Frustrating! How hard is it to keep recording something at the same time each day?? This is something this box seems to be unwilling to do properly. It is one of the most BASIC functions of a DVR.


----------



## Alvin Nuckleglazer (Oct 7, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> Well, there's a large portion of 27 pages worth of posts that would disagree with your flawless experience.
> 
> Oh .. and those 27 pages? That's just for the most recent update!
> 
> There are MANY, MANY people who are having serious problems with this machine, ESPECIALLY with the mpeg4 locals!


i didnt say my experience has been flawless. there are some bugs but i have not run into any "serious problems" using the hr20. it has recorded everything i have asked it to, no lockups, and i have yet to reboot it. those many many people you speak of, i would bet the vast majority of them, either have a hardware issue/incompatibility or its an user error problem. 
with that being said, it doesnt take away the fact that you are having problems. im curious though as to why you are still using the hr20? if its that bad i would have returned it long ago and went back to tivo. or are you one of those types of people that enjoys having problems and being able to complain about them?


----------



## Bizarroterl (Oct 20, 2006)

3rdGenBruin said:


> I could not disagree more with your assessment of the UI. Compared to what? Tivo?


I run an IT department for a 200+ user company. I'm continually evaluating software for functionality, supportability, and usability.

So I'm comparing it to everything I've evaluated over the last couple years.

IE - Do a search on a show. Then you decide you want to record the entire series. You select record and it's marked for recording - but only one showing. How do you get it to record the series? There is no on screen clue for how this is done. Yes, if you know where to go and what to push then you have it, but that's how you work around a poor interface.

Another example - I set up my favorites to use a custom list. This list was intiated with channels I receive. "This Old House" was selected to be recorded as a series (by someone else). Episodes appeared in the to be recorded list but never recorded. I discoverd why it wasn't recording - I don't get that channel. Why did it let somone set up a recording for a channel we don't get? A good user interface wouldn't include a channel you don't get when you select "Channels I receive" and a good interface would warn you if you tried to record something you don't receive.


----------



## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

redbirdruss said:


> My biggest issue with this product is it cannot execute it key objective: Recording High Definition MPEG 4 TV Shows.
> 
> This is absolutely unacceptable and must be resolved immediately. If this isn't resolved by next week, I am dumping DirecTV and moving to Charter Cable.


redbirdruss,

They have singled out you and 100 of your friends. They like the rest of us and has given us great HR-20's that work.

TiVo will love you at $800 a unit and only $13 per month per unit. Add in the low cost of Charter Cable and it will only be about $50 extra a month.

Good luck with your new TiVo!

_I got to go. The Bears will be on HD local MPEG4. They come in great!_

- Craig


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> They have singled out you and 100 of your friends. The rest of us have great HR-20's that work.
> 
> TiVo will love you at $800 a unit and only $13 per month per unit.


LOL :lol:

I'm with you.

After 170 hours of *flawless* scheduling, recording, and viewing...the HR20 keeps going, and going, and going.....

Your tips make it even more powerful. Thanks for all your efforts. 

Once OTA is activated (countdown now is in weeks, instead of months)....we can all laugh at the $800 Tivo folks... :hurah:


----------



## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> This box is 60 days old and having 10's of thousands of units out there within that short timeframe - certainly, even if it's 98% perfect...there's 200-400 bad boxes out there.


I find it interesting that people want to attribute problems other people are having that they themselves have not seen to either user error or bad boxes, even though release notes for previous updates show at least 22 non-HDMI related software fixes for problems in the software. Earl has even himself stated that DirecTV found a recording AND a playback bug, both of which were fixed as one line item in 0xDC, and hurried out the door because they wanted to fix the basic functionality problems in their software as soon as possible, even without resolving all of the new issues they had created at the time.

I certainly believe it's possible for some people to have not experienced any serious issues with their HR20s, but I'm not even sure why they would be here posting over and over that the software works fine for them, unless they have some financial interest in the success of the box. I only searched for and found this forum when I got frustrated with the initial significant problems I was experiencing. I could see users posting positive reviews in certain threads, but what is the need to clutter up the software release issue thread, whose avowed purpose is to get information from the userbase about issues they are having with the software? I don't think any information can be gleaned from the numbe of people posting either way on this forum as to how many installed users are or are not having problems currently, and frankly to a certain extent I don't care how many others are or are not having problems...I just care that the service that I am paying DirecTV to provide is not reliable enough for me yet.

I pretty strongly believe that they are making significant progress overall with the udpates so far, but it is not yet at what I would consider an acceptible service level. Once it is, I plan to have a discussion with DirecTV about how they plan to recompense me for the promised service that they failed to deliver.

As far as other companies releasing significantly buggy products in the past, although I don't believe this should ever be an acceptable policy, if you pay a flat fee for a product which eventually gets it's bugs resolved you have eventually received the product you initially paid for, and there is relly a very small impact overall. If you are paying a monthly fee for a service however, it is common policy for the service provider to refund the fees involved during the period they fail to provide adequate service, usually without users even having to ask. A move like this on DirecTV's part would go a long way to restoring my previously very positive feeling about DirecTV and their service. I'd say right now I'm more inclined to at least look into other options, which I haven't done in 6 years.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unfortunately, many of these posts are redundant "over and over" statements from the same people. I suspect the 10's of thousands of people without problems don't take the time to share that good news (why bother). Only a handfull here post our no problem experiences just to offset the distorted 27 pages you reference. Also, its interesting to note that the source of these problems can be cables, poor installs, HDMI incompatibility (the biggest % and often based on problems with TV set HDMI generational issues no matter what the source), and other factors, many of whikch are not rooted in the HR20. There's 2 units here at my location - *not one problem *scheduling, recording, or playing here. I can also testify for 12 others who have the same excellent experience. Maybe I they should start posting their counter-experiences. With another firmware update coming very, very soon, many of the remainng nuisance issues may also reduce the HMDI and related problems. This box is 60 days old and having 10's of thousands of units out there within that short timeframe - certainly, even if it's 98% perfect...there's 200-400 bad boxes out there.


What happened to the 14 other flawless boxes you used to mention (it's down to 12, huh?). And can you explain, once and for all, why D* keeps sending major download fixes if only 200-400 people (your estimate) are having problems? It doesn't compute. Seems a lot of work and effort, no? Why not just replace those 200-400 boxes with flawless units, much like the one you currently enjoy (and those other 12-14 users you keep mentioning)?

We do agree about one thing: When the HR20 works, it's a very cool piece of gear. But denying that any serious problem exists on this launch continues to be unsupportable. People are having problems, and they are not the same dozen or so people reporting them over and over on this forum. Just admit there are problems, and let people vent if they want to.

Maybe everyone who is having serious recording/reliability problems really is just jealous that you have had such a wonderful experience with your HR20s. Yeah, that's the ticket. It's just jealousy. C'mon. Admit there are problems, and for some (I'd wager more than 200-400 across the country), they are very aggravating, frustration issues. Enough with the "mine is perfect" mantra already.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unfortunately, many of these posts are redundant "over and over" statements from the same people. I suspect the 10's of thousands of people without problems don't take the time to share that good news (why bother). Only a handfull here post our no problem experiences just to offset the distorted 27 pages you reference. Also, its interesting to note that the source of these problems can be cables, poor installs, HDMI incompatibility (the biggest % and often based on problems with TV set HDMI generational issues no matter what the source), and other factors, many of whikch are not rooted in the HR20. There's 2 units here at my location - *not one problem *scheduling, recording, or playing here. I can also testify for 12 others who have the same excellent experience. Maybe I they should start posting their counter-experiences. With another firmware update coming very, very soon, many of the remainng nuisance issues may also reduce the HMDI and related problems. This box is 60 days old and having 10's of thousands of units out there within that short timeframe - certainly, even if it's 98% perfect...there's 200-400 bad boxes out there.


And redundant "over and over" is re-redundant.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> i didnt say my experience has been flawless. there are some bugs but i have not run into any "serious problems" using the hr20. it has recorded everything i have asked it to, no lockups, and i have yet to reboot it. those many many people you speak of, i would bet the vast majority of them, either have a hardware issue/incompatibility or its an user error problem.
> with that being said, it doesnt take away the fact that you are having problems. im curious though as to why you are still using the hr20? if its that bad i would have returned it long ago and went back to tivo. or are you one of those types of people that enjoys having problems and being able to complain about them?


He, like every other person who is having serious issues with the box, wants the stupid thing to work. Simple, no? Can you comprehend that? I'm sure if you were having serious issues, you would have "went" back to Tivo by now, rather than register your dismay with D* about their less-than-reliable new box.


----------



## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

tstarn said:


> What happened to the 14 other flawless boxes you used to mention (it's down to 12, huh?).


Actually, to be fair, it's his 2 and 12 others to which he is referring. However, in some places he claims that these 14 boxes are in three different states, and in other places, he claims they are all locally in Atlanta...where he claims to live in one forum, but in this forum only calims to have 'connections'. He also claims to have never touched the reset button...EXCEPT when he claims to have used it in earlier posts to fix a problem he had after a software download with his HDMI connection...oh wait, nevermind he has never had one single problem according to other posts.

Just wanted to be fair.


----------



## Alvin Nuckleglazer (Oct 7, 2006)

tstarn said:


> He, like every other person who is having serious issues with the box, wants the stupid thing to work. Simple, no? Can you comprehend that? I'm sure if you were having serious issues, you would have "went" back to Tivo by now, rather than register your dismay with D* about their less-than-reliable new box.


yes if i was having the amount and magnitude of problems this guy is reporting i would have returned the box weeks ago. take a look at his posting history. of the 60 or so posts about 99% of them are complaints or him whining that the hr20 is not a tivo. 
now answer me this einstein: how is posting over and over again how bad the hr20 is helping this guy or his problems? imo he is either a tivo shill or the type of person that just likes to complain about things. your less-than-reliable comment is your own opinion. mine and other's opinions differ. if that is upsetting to you either get some counseling or try and deal with it on your own.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Unfortunately, many of these posts are redundant "over and over" statements from the same people. I suspect the 10's of thousands of people without problems don't take the time to share that good news (why bother). Only a handfull here post our no problem experiences just to offset the distorted 27 pages you reference. Also, its interesting to note that the source of these problems can be cables, poor installs, HDMI incompatibility (the biggest % and often based on problems with TV set HDMI generational issues no matter what the source), and other factors, many of whikch are not rooted in the HR20. There's 2 units here at my location - *not one problem *scheduling, recording, or playing here. I can also testify for 12 others who have the same excellent experience. Maybe I they should start posting their counter-experiences. With another firmware update coming very, very soon, many of the remainng nuisance issues may also reduce the HMDI and related problems. This box is 60 days old and having 10's of thousands of units out there within that short timeframe - certainly, even if it's 98% perfect...there's 200-400 bad boxes out there.


First, I seriously question your claim that there are "10's of thousands" of these boxes in the hands of D* customers! Second, you can put your fingers in your ears, hum loudly, and close your eyes, but the problems that are being posted here are NOT "over and over" statements from "the same people." You also have to realize that most of your "10's of thousands" of D* customers who have this boat anchor don't run over to the WWW and post their frustrations about this "box o' lead" on the DBSTalk forume!! I would bet that 99.9% of all "lucky" owners of this box don't even know this site exists!!

Besides, EVERY time I press the IR button, I EXPECT it to work as designed! Not result in a locked up machine that takes 47 key presses, and a possible reboot, to get it to just work again!

You ABSOLUTELY HAVE to be a D* employee, or a stockholder to be the D* apologist on this boat anchor!

D* seriously screwed up in their ambition to save one freaking dollar per subscriber!! I've been a D* subscriber since 1995. A TiVo owner since Feb 2000. While I WILL say that there are a few enhancements that I DO like with this box (looking at the ToDo List, running a search, and looking at the list of recordings without completely exiting Live TV) that I would like to see TiVo move to, the simple fact that in almost every respect, this machine fails at even being a simply FUNCTIONING DVR, has me close to looking again at cable!! And I SWORE that I would NEVER do business with them again!

Cable, and in some respects E*, have an advantage over D* in the fact that they already offer more HD programming. Add to that, cable is much cheaper and offers more for the buck right now! If it wasn't for NFL-Sunday Ticket, I would probably have made the jump back to cable by now. I am even questioning if the loss of ST would be worth it to have more HD the other 6 days of the week!

Don't get me wrong. I HOPE that D* succeeds. I have been a big proponent of D* and have gotten many of my family, friends, and associates to switch to them over the last 12 years. But they are failing MISERABLY in several respects! This dunderheaded decision to design their own DVRs .. in MY opinion .. has been a COLOSSAL failure!


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> yes if i was having the amount and magnitude of problems this guy is reporting i would have returned the box weeks ago. take a look at his posting history. of the 60 or so posts about 99% of them are complaints or him whining that the hr20 is not a tivo.
> now answer me this einstein: how is posting over and over again how bad the hr20 is helping this guy or his problems? imo he is either a tivo shill or the type of person that just likes to complain about things. your less-than-reliable comment is your own opinion. mine and other's opinions differ. if that is upsetting to you either get some counseling or try and deal with it on your own.


You say you would have went to Tivo by now, and you are calling me einstein? And that's "others' " not "other's", einstein. Tivo shill? Yeah, we'd al be wasting our time on this forum pointing out serious flaws in the HR20 (in terms of it working properly) because we are all a bunch of Tivo shills, or we just like to complain. I'll let your words speak for themselves. "Mine's and other's" opinions are different than yours, no doubt, but it's got nothing to do with being Tivo shills or chronic complainers. It's got to do with HD DVRs that don't work properly. Okay, einstein?


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

I love this forum:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Twosted said:


> I love this forum:lol: :lol: :lol:


Me too.


----------



## bflatmajor (Sep 8, 2006)

Feel the love!!! :lol: 

I really wonder if an unhappy user of the hr20 has a mental breakdown could he/she sue D*. :lol:

Due to my location and reading the post on this forum, I've postponed getting an hr20, I'll stick with the h20 and wait.

I had the previous hd-dvr and it was also having hdmi issues. I don't want to go down that path again.


----------



## Alvin Nuckleglazer (Oct 7, 2006)

tstarn said:


> You say you would have went to Tivo by now, and you are calling me einstein? And that's "others' " not "other's", einstein. Tivo shill? Yeah, we'd al be wasting our time on this forum pointing out serious flaws in the HR20 (in terms of it working properly) because we are all a bunch of Tivo shills, or we just like to complain. I'll let your words speak for themselves. "Mine's and other's" opinions are different than yours, no doubt, but it's got nothing to do with being Tivo shills or chronic complainers. It's got to do with HD DVRs that don't work properly. Okay, einstein?


are you not reading my posts or is it a comprehension problem with you? i was agreeing with you that if i had the amount of problems the other poster had i would have went back to my reliable,blessed tivo. ive noticed that when you dont have a valid point or argument to make you comment on posters spelling and grammar. its no wonder you cant operate your dvr. hey maybe you andyour other imcompetent friend can get together and help each other readi the manual? maybe you will get it to work?


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> with that being said, it doesnt take away the fact that you are having problems. im curious though as to why you are still using the hr20? if its that bad i would have returned it long ago and went back to tivo. or are you one of those types of people that enjoys having problems and being able to complain about them?


Well, Mr "Knuckleglazer" .. we weren't given a CHOICE, dimwit (which I only call you because you are the one calling names around here)! If we want to watch the D* signal without going through D/A conversion, then we are STUCK with this boat anchor! I requested an HR10 when I got my new TV in August and wanted to "upgrade"  to HD! I was told that they were out of the HR10! I'm also not given a choice if I want to get my HD locals via sat!

So, you can stroll through this board and sling names at people, like "Einstein," which I guess is a compliment, because based on YOUR "logic," you are definitely NOT an "Einstein!!"

And if you don't like reading complaints about this machine, then I would suggest that you find another board to troll, because based on the subsequent software releases which create more problems than the previous, the strife here will continue for a LONG time! I will be the first to compliment D* if they EVER get this box up to the reliability standards that were set by TiVo! (and no .. I have no connection to TiVo other than I've been a very satisfied customer who's been paying them every month for over six years!)

Try THINKING BEFORE you post!


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> Well, Mr "Knuckleglazer"


What exactly is a "Knuckleglazer"? I've heard of "Knuckledragger", that's what we call the mechanics at my job.:lol: :lol:


----------



## Alvin Nuckleglazer (Oct 7, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> Try THINKING BEFORE you post!


try reading your user manual.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> try reading your user manual.


I've read the manual. Cover to cover! It's amazing to me that the buttons on the remote DON'T consistently perform the functions (without locking up the machine) that the MANUAL states that they will!

Any more suggestions, or do you just want to continue being a shill for D*?


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> are you not reading my posts or is it a comprehension problem with you? i was agreeing with you that if i had the amount of problems the other poster had i would have went back to my reliable,blessed tivo. ive noticed that when you dont have a valid point or argument to make you comment on posters spelling and grammar. its no wonder you cant operate your dvr. hey maybe you andyour other imcompetent friend can get together and help each other readi the manual? maybe you will get it to work?


It's not your advice, it's your tone. You seem to think anyone complaining is a whiner, no matter what their issue. Actually, the HR20 I have works fairly well, but it's just not reliable. That's my main gripe. It freezes fairly fairly regularly, so the reset button has become as important as the on/off switch. Reading the manual has nothing to do with it. But you're right, I don't comprehend your logic, tone, or attitude towards people who are having issues worse than mine. Truth is, if my HR20 were running as advertised, I wouldn't have ever visited DBStalk in the first place (found it when I Googled "HR20 problems"). Sure that's true of many people on this forum. Getting tips and tricks is all well and good, but there aren't that many things a DVR needs to do well to keep most owners happy. Basic recording and playback would be a great start. That's all people ask. So disparaging them for having problems is really unnecessary.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Alvin Nuckleglazer said:


> try reading your user manual.


If I did what the instructions said I would not be listening to Dolby Digital. You have to do the exact opposite of the instructions in order to hear DD audio.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bflatmajor said:


> Feel the love!!! :lol:
> 
> I really wonder if an unhappy user of the hr20 has a mental breakdown could he/she sue D*. :lol:
> 
> ...


Smart move.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Just to add my two cents to this conversation... I have an HR20 that has behaved ALMOST flawlessly, and I do not doubt for a minute that there are people out there having problems with the machine, and again, given D*'s response, I don't doubt that there are ACTUAL problems with the machine, not just "user error" as has been suggested more than once.

I won't go so far as to call the people complaining on this board "whiners", as again there are REAL problems with this box, that some experience and some do not.

My frustration with the people complaining are those (not all of you, mind you) who simply post "My box is a POS I'm going back to TIVO". Quite obviously the box, under certain circumstances, is relatively stable. Under other circumstances, it is not. The purpose of the many threads here detailing the problems with the box is to provide as much information as possible to D* (who IS monitoring these threads). A post whose sole purpose is to complain about the box does nothing but stir the pot.

I understand the need to vent at times, but take the half a minute to provide some detail as to what's going on, EXACTLY, as it may serve to help D* in some small way, and I would argue that it would limit the ire of the people reading these threads.

I understand that people are experiencing problems and they want to voice their displeasure, however, it does come off a bit "whiney" when it's a one line post about "how awful this box is and I never should have bought it, I'm switching to Dish".


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Just to add my two cents to this conversation... I have an HR20 that has behaved ALMOST flawlessly, and I do not doubt for a minute that there are people out there having problems with the machine, and again, given D*'s response, I don't doubt that there are ACTUAL problems with the machine, not just "user error" as has been suggested more than once.
> 
> I won't go so far as to call the people complaining on this board "whiners", as again there are REAL problems with this box, that some experience and some do not.
> 
> ...


I understand your point, and it's a fair one. But the documented problems within the HR20 threads are out there, in spades. It's getting so just trying to keep up with all the maze of issue/bugs/minor annoyances is getting confusing. Just read through all the post-download threads, and you will get plenty of data from frustrated users. Point is, most people buy gear expecting it to work, right? When it doesn't, some may have the right tech knowledge/background to explain it in detail, others don't. That latter group, most of whom do not post in forums, are the ones really feeling the pain - especially if their last DVR experience was a very good one. So they come here and vent. Will it make the problems go away any faster, probably not. Will calling D* help them? Not likely. Can they get a replacement/alternative box (unless they already own one)? Not with the current shortage. Anyway, I agree that the HR20 threads are getting repetitive, and the great HR20 debate is coming to a standstill. And I also believe everyone on this site - no matter what side they are on at this point - hopes that D* gets the thing working reliably so we can all get back to using the box, watching the tube, and living life.

We're just not there yet.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I understand your point, and it's a fair one. But the documented problems within the HR20 threads are out there, in spades. It's getting so just trying to keep up with all the maze of issue/bugs/minor annoyances is getting confusing. Just read through all the post-download threads, and you will get plenty of data from frustrated users. Point is, most people buy gear expecting it to work, right? When it doesn't, some may have the right tech knowledge/background to explain it in detail, others don't. That latter group, most of whom do not post in forums, are the ones really feeling the pain - especially if their last DVR experience was a very good one. So they come here and vent. Will it make the problems go away any faster, probably not. Will calling D* help them? Not likely. Can they get a replacement/alternative box (unless they already own one)? Not with the current shortage. Anyway, I agree that the HR20 threads are getting repetitive, and the great HR20 debate is coming to a standstill. And I also believe everyone on this site - no matter what side they are on at this point - hopes that D* gets the thing working reliably so we can all get back to using the box, watching the tube, and living life.
> 
> We're just not there yet.


I agree with you 100% that we bought (or otherwise received) the equipment expecting it to work. And I realize that many of the threads of a whole lot of information from frustrated users, much of it useful, much of it not. I realize that many of the users probably don't know what information might be pertinent to the people trying to solve the problems. In all honesty, I'm not sure how useful my feedback would be if I were having problems.

I don't find the posts where people "tried' to be tiresome. In fact, I thnk in some instances, the feedback of a novice can be more useful than the feedback of an expert. I find that in my line of work (commercial printing) I tend to come up with solutions to problems we face BECAUSE of my inexperience, as opposed to IN SPITE OF my inexperience. Because I'm not hung up on "the way it should work", I can look at a problem and see solutions to it that the more experienced guys don't notice, because "it doesn't make any sense".

So I think that the posts by frustrated non professionals can have some little jewels of information that might prove useful, only because we aren't hung up on how the code controlling this might affect the code for that, and how this interacts with that.

The new threads which consist of one line about how the poster is going to throw the box out the window are the ones which get tiresome...

As you pointed out, there are SO MANY posts that it gets to be hard to sort through what's what, and those kind of posts just make it that much more difficult.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I agree with you 100% that we bought (or otherwise received) the equipment expecting it to work. And I realize that many of the threads of a whole lot of information from frustrated users, much of it useful, much of it not. I realize that many of the users probably don't know what information might be pertinent to the people trying to solve the problems. In all honesty, I'm not sure how useful my feedback would be if I were having problems.
> 
> I don't find the posts where people "tried' to be tiresome. In fact, I thnk in some instances, the feedback of a novice can be more useful than the feedback of an expert. I find that in my line of work (commercial printing) I tend to come up with solutions to problems we face BECAUSE of my inexperience, as opposed to IN SPITE OF my inexperience. Because I'm not hung up on "the way it should work", I can look at a problem and see solutions to it that the more experienced guys don't notice, because "it doesn't make any sense".
> 
> ...


Makes sense. Excuse me while I toss my HR20 out the window. Is joke.

Let's just hope they get it fixed, so we can all relax and get back to serious business, aka time shifting (in HD, that is).


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

tstarn said:


> It's not your advice, it's your tone. You seem to think anyone complaining is a whiner, no matter what their issue. Actually, the HR20 I have works fairly well, but it's just not reliable. That's my main gripe. It freezes fairly fairly regularly, so the reset button has become as important as the on/off switch. Reading the manual has nothing to do with it. But you're right, I don't comprehend your logic, tone, or attitude towards people who are having issues worse than mine. Truth is, if my HR20 were running as advertised, I wouldn't have ever visited DBStalk in the first place (found it when I Googled "HR20 problems"). Sure that's true of many people on this forum. Getting tips and tricks is all well and good, but there aren't that many things a DVR needs to do well to keep most owners happy. Basic recording and playback would be a great start. That's all people ask. So disparaging them for having problems is really unnecessary.


Add me to the list of people who would have never posted on this forum (no offense, Earl) had I not had the MAJOR problems that I have had the last month! I have better things to do than to post on a "problem" forum!

However, you can bet that every time that this thing locks up when I am trying to something simple like use the REPLAY function, or the FF button, or try to catch back up to "Live," I'm going to come here and post! That is because we have been told over and over that the D* folks ARE reading this forum! Since I have no way to complain directly to the dunderheads who are screwing up the software other than to post here, people like "Nuckleglazer" and "HDTVfan" or whatever their names are, better get used to the complaints from those of us who are not having the "puppy dogs and butterflies" experience that they apparently are!

If tomorrow they released new software that eliminated all of these CORE FUNCTIONALITY bugs, you would find my backside posting FAR less, if at all!


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> Makes sense. Excuse me while I toss my HR20 out the window. Is joke.
> 
> Let's just hope they get it fixed, so we can all relax and get back to serious business, aka time shifting (in HD, that is).


For the love of god, would you just quit with your whining already! 

Besides... I don't know what you're all complaining about. My box works perfect. if yours doesn't it must be user error, right?

Seriously, though, I do think that D* is on the path to getting it right. And certainly, releasing an incomplete product and then relying at least in part on a message board to solve the problems is probably not the greatest business plan, but they ARE working on it, and I DO belive they're on the right path.


----------



## Peapod (Oct 14, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Seriously, though, I do think that D* is on the path to getting it right. And certainly, releasing an incomplete product and then relying at least in part on a message board to solve the problems is probably not the greatest business plan, but they ARE working on it, and I DO belive they're on the right path.


I hear ya Sharkie. Let's see what the next software update brings.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> For the love of god, would you just quit with your whining already!
> 
> Besides... I don't know what you're all complaining about. My box works perfect. if yours doesn't it must be user error, right?
> 
> Seriously, though, I do think that D* is on the path to getting it right. And certainly, releasing an incomplete product and then relying at least in part on a message board to solve the problems is probably not the greatest business plan, but they ARE working on it, and I DO belive they're on the right path.


I'm not betting the house on it just yet! Or holding my breath for longer than twelve seconds.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

NFLnut said:


> I'm not betting the house on it just yet! Or holding my breath for longer than twelve seconds.


I suppose it is easier to be optimistic for those of us who haven't had the major problems that some others have had. I don't necessarily think that the next software release will solve all our problems, or maybe even the next several software releases. Obviously there are so many different scenarios at play here that it's been a challenge trying to chase down these problems. I don't know if the problems D* is having chasing down the bugs in this system are normal or not, but they are definately struggling to this point.

I don't know how fair a representation this board is of the public in general, but I would say that for every 1 poster who has good luck with the HR20, there are at least 2 who have had back luck. Given the results of the software updates to date, I think we're probably looking at several months before we see those numbers turning around to the point where more people are happy than are not. I think certainly there are going to be those holdouts who dislike the box simply because it's not TIVO, but I do think that D* is at least heading down the path to having more people happy than not.

I do think you have to give it at least fifteen seconds if you're going to hold your breath though.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I suppose it is easier to be optimistic for those of us who haven't had the major problems that some others have had. I don't necessarily think that the next software release will solve all our problems, or maybe even the next several software releases. Obviously there are so many different scenarios at play here that it's been a challenge trying to chase down these problems. I don't know if the problems D* is having chasing down the bugs in this system are normal or not, but they are definately struggling to this point.
> 
> I don't know how fair a representation this board is of the public in general, but I would say that for every 1 poster who has good luck with the HR20, there are at least 2 who have had back luck. Given the results of the software updates to date, I think we're probably looking at several months before we see those numbers turning around to the point where more people are happy than are not. I think certainly there are going to be those holdouts who dislike the box simply because it's not TIVO, but I do think that D* is at least heading down the path to having more people happy than not.
> 
> I do think you have to give it at least fifteen seconds if you're going to hold your breath though.


It's refreshing to read a post like this with a realist view on the entire situation. Kudos on your insight


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I do think you have to give it at least fifteen seconds if you're going to hold your breath though.


:lol:

For the record .. I'm not completely down on D* . I too have a dream that some day we may all have nothing but flawless execution of all DVR functions and button presses. I don't even expect it to be cleaned up by next Thursday (I'm giving them til the third Thursday of November  ). I still think that D* is the best provider out there. I just think they major screwed up with the release of this box and the subsequent software releases.

I also think that they would have made less trouble for themselves by releasing this thing back in, say, May or June. The fact that they released it at both the beginning of the long-awaited Fall premiere season AND (more importantly for me) the beginning of NFL and college football has only magnified the frustrations that we are having! Maybe they had no choice, but it still magnifies the frustrations that their customers may be having with this machine. It sure seems that they had plenty of time!


----------



## ktabel01 (Aug 19, 2006)

Right on with the release date. With ESPN offering so much HD b/w NFL and college, and their channel being one most affected by the 771 error, DTV has royally hosed many customers. Better get it fixed by this Thursday, big time game.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

I may have had a breakthrough today. For the first time, decided to unhook the HDMI cable for component. Reset the box. So far, even with all my trick play shenanigans during game time, it didn't freeze or otherwise go batty. First time that has happened. Can it all be the component thing? Anyone having issues with component cables? Seems too easy, but possible in my specific situation, I suppose (Hitachi plasma).


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I may have had a breakthrough today. For the first time, decided to unhook the HDMI cable for component. Reset the box. So far, even with all my trick play shenanigans during game time, it didn't freeze or otherwise go batty. First time that has happened. Can it all be the component thing? Anyone having issues with component cables? Seems too easy, but possible in my specific situation, I suppose (Hitachi plasma).


I've seen other posts where people go from HDMI to component and have a more stable box as a result.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> I've seen other posts where people go from HDMI to component and have a more stable box as a result.


I guess I just wanted the HDMI to work, but I can certainly live with component for now. Eager to see if that's it, seems way too easy. Someday I will put the HDMI back on, if this fixes the issues.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I guess I just wanted the HDMI to work, but I can certainly live with component for now. Eager to see if that's it, seems way too easy. Someday I will put the HDMI back on, if this fixes the issues.


Definitely does seem too easy of a fix, but hopefully it works out for you in the long run. HDMI seems to be nothing but a mess so far. This is what happens when all the manufacturers don't follow specs 100%.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> Definitely does seem too easy of a fix, but hopefully it works out for you in the long run. HDMI seems to be nothing but a mess so far. This is what happens when all the manufacturers don't follow specs 100%.


Thanks. Of course, now that I posted, within an hour I'll need to hit the reset button (hope not). Lock-ups are my main issue now (no more BSOD, dropped/canceled recordings, etc.), so not as bad as others here.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

tstarn said:


> I may have had a breakthrough today. For the first time, decided to unhook the HDMI cable for component. Reset the box. So far, even with all my trick play shenanigans during game time, it didn't freeze or otherwise go batty. First time that has happened. Can it all be the component thing? Anyone having issues with component cables? Seems too easy, but possible in my specific situation, I suppose (Hitachi plasma).


I suggested you go component about 3 weeks ago.  
And this has been suggested this to many, many people. It's not a golden fix for all problems but sure does clear up a lot.

Yea I know, HDMI is "supposed" to work but HDMI is nothing but trouble for just about any consumer electronic device that uses it. Why bang your head on the wall with HDMI when you don't have to?

It's like the guy that goes to the doctor and says "when I do this my arm hurts" and the doctor then says "then don't do that!"


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I may have had a breakthrough today. For the first time, decided to unhook the HDMI cable for component. Reset the box. So far, even with all my trick play shenanigans during game time, it didn't freeze or otherwise go batty. First time that has happened. Can it all be the component thing? Anyone having issues with component cables? Seems too easy, but possible in my specific situation, I suppose (Hitachi plasma).


I use component video exclusive, and I have seen the following bugs.

Unwatchable Recordings (negative time code no trick plays) (4 OR 6 TIMES)
771 BUG (3 TIMES)
Lost recording (partial bug) (3 TIMES)
Hung interface 1 time (video played in PIP box but no control, required restart)
Partial Hung interface 1 time (guide, list, menu all work but nav buttons do not required restart)


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> I suggested you go component about 3 weeks ago.
> And this has been suggested this to many, many people. It's not a golden fix for all problems but sure does clear up a lot.
> 
> Yea I know, HDMI is "supposed" to work but HDMI is nothing but trouble for just about any consumer electronic device that uses it. Why bang your head on the wall with HDMI when you don't have to?
> ...


Then why didn't they disable HDMI like they did OTA?


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Then why didn't they disable HDMI like they did OTA?


Probably because people like me have never had HDMI issues. I swear they must have tested it using my exact same TV nd model because it has worked from day one for me.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> It's refreshing to read a post like this with a realist view on the entire situation. Kudos on your insight


I appreciate that... Especially from one whose name seems to pop up in just about every thread and who has a pretty good handle on what's going on. And of course, it is easier to look at the whole situation in a good light when all is going well. I'm not sure I'd have such a level head about it if I was having some of the troubles that others have had... Just human nature there.



NFLnut said:


> :lol:
> 
> For the record .. I'm not completely down on D* . I too have a dream that some day we may all have nothing but flawless execution of all DVR functions and button presses. I don't even expect it to be cleaned up by next Thursday (I'm giving them til the third Thursday of November  ). I still think that D* is the best provider out there. I just think they major screwed up with the release of this box and the subsequent software releases.
> 
> I also think that they would have made less trouble for themselves by releasing this thing back in, say, May or June. The fact that they released it at both the beginning of the long-awaited Fall premiere season AND (more importantly for me) the beginning of NFL and college football has only magnified the frustrations that we are having! Maybe they had no choice, but it still magnifies the frustrations that their customers may be having with this machine. It sure seems that they had plenty of time!


That's an interesting theory as far as the release date goes. I see where you're coming from, but given that D* hasn't been able to turn the problems in the field around without creating more problems, I'm not sure that had they released the box in May or June that we'd be in any better position than we are today. Perhaps they would have worked out more of the bugs if their beta test started earlier, but ... who knows. I do agree with you though that the timing of the release is adding to the frustration. I can only imagine what my reaction would have been 10 years ago if I was in your shoes! The NFL has lost alot of its luster for me in the last several years, so I'm not interested in watching too many of those games - and so I don't have so many of those problems..



Wolffpack said:


> Then why didn't they disable HDMI like they did OTA?


I really think that D* thought the box was better than it is.... Obviously they knew OTA wasn't ready, and maybe I'm a bit naive, but I think they felt like the rest of the features were *pretty* good. I don't think for a second they had a perfect record in their testing, but they probably felt like if they were perfect X% of the time, then they could release it and deal with what small fallout they would have. Then it got into the real world where for every 100 users, there are probably 100 different combinations of TV/Audio/Video/etc. I use HDMI to the TV, optical to my audio receiver, S-Video out to my DVD Recorder, and I've had no problems... There's just so many different variations that it's impossible to test for them all. That's not to exonerate D* from the fact that they released a box that is causing so many problems for so many people. It's been mentioned before that release dates are pushed by people who aren't directly involved in the production of a machine, and that often the engineers are forced to release a product before their ready. Obviously that has happened here, I just think given the expanse of problems, they had to be mistaken as to just how far along they were with their testing.

Going back to my background in commercial printing, we've seen equipment manufacturers almost go under as a result of releasing a stinker of a product. Granted D* is in a much different situation where they really make their money off our subscriptions, but, to release a product that is as bad for so many people as the HR20 has been, means either D* is so confindent in their market position that they don't really care how much fallout they have to deal with, or there were mistakes made in the evaluation of the product and it wasn't as ready as they thought when they did make the decision to release. That's my take on it, anyway...


----------



## bluedogok (Sep 9, 2006)

Since mine was installed on Monday I have had no issues, it recorded my HD local just fine yesterday (ABC - OU-Missouri game) but I also had my SD-DirecTivo box record it at the same time just in case. Mine is hooked up HDMI and my DVD player is also with no problems.

My clock adjusted just fine.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I suggested you go component about 3 weeks ago.
> And this has been suggested this to many, many people. It's not a golden fix for all problems but sure does clear up a lot.
> 
> Yea I know, HDMI is "supposed" to work but HDMI is nothing but trouble for just about any consumer electronic device that uses it. Why bang your head on the wall with HDMI when you don't have to?
> ...


I didn't want to lose the incremental PQ, but no choice now. As for HDMI's general failing, I have an HDMI Sony DVD player, and it hasn't had a stumble connected to my Hitachi. Those are the only two HDMI devices I have. My other plasma, a Sony, has DVI and it's connected to an H20 (not a single issue) via component (using the DVI for a Denon upconverting DVD player).

We'll see if it holds. Seems like some others have used component and still had the same issues plaguing HDMI users. Guess the move back to HDMI will just be a hit or miss prop, assuming the component cable switch chases away the bugs (fpr the most part). Also, I am just using the basic component cable that came with the box. From my readings, the "quality" component cable (paying $100-plus for one) is mostly myth. From the PQ I see, not sure spending more on a cable is going to make a major difference. Plus, I hope some day to return to the HDMI connection.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I appreciate that... Especially from one whose name seems to pop up in just about every thread and who has a pretty good handle on what's going on. And of course, it is easier to look at the whole situation in a good light when all is going well. I'm not sure I'd have such a level head about it if I was having some of the troubles that others have had... Just human nature there.
> 
> That's an interesting theory as far as the release date goes. I see where you're coming from, but given that D* hasn't been able to turn the problems in the field around without creating more problems, I'm not sure that had they released the box in May or June that we'd be in any better position than we are today. Perhaps they would have worked out more of the bugs if their beta test started earlier, but ... who knows. I do agree with you though that the timing of the release is adding to the frustration. I can only imagine what my reaction would have been 10 years ago if I was in your shoes! The NFL has lost alot of its luster for me in the last several years, so I'm not interested in watching too many of those games - and so I don't have so many of those problems..
> 
> ...


I've said as much in earlier posts, maybe not as politely, and was chastised for it. Main counter-argument is the D* had no pre-release issues, and those having problems are a slim minority. Tough to discern, but I think the issues are much more widespread. Of course, D* is not going to admit it on the record (if they rushed it out the door). But user reviews at CNET and Circuit City at least show that those buyers have suffered through the problems reported here. But CNET itself rated the box at 8.1 out of 10, though the reviewer did mention that he had some issues and expected them to be cleared up soon. As we know, they have not for many users. HDMI? Software? Hardware? Ugh.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

No one to date has validated that most, if not all of the prblems reported are caused by the HR20, especially since others don't seem to have the same issues and other sources could cause specific problems.

Here is a new thread addressing that issue:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=705490#post705490

Don't assume it's necessarily the firmware/software.


----------



## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Seriously, though, I do think that D* is on the path to getting it right. And certainly, releasing an incomplete product and then relying at least in part on a message board to solve the problems is probably not the greatest business plan, but they ARE working on it, and I DO belive they're on the right path.


They may stumble onto it somehow by luck, but after watching the R15 for almost a year, and now this, it looks to me like they need a complete overhaul of their software process to really get on the right path. Right now they're almost as likely to introduce a problem as to fix a problem in any given update.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No one to date has validated that most, if not all of the prblems reported are caused by the HR20, especially since others don't seem to have the same issues and other sources could cause specific problems.
> 
> Here is a new thread addressing that issue:
> 
> ...


I read your post, and you do make some valid points, but, I would argue that just because it's good in some instances and not in others, don't assume it's necessarily NOT the firmware/software.

As you stated yourself in your post, with complex technology, it takes only one weak link to throw a loop in the whole process. And while you may be correct that it is the HR20's interaction with a user's particular situation that is causing problems, I don't think that means the HR20 is good as is.

Assume for a moment that you have 3 users, one with a "good" setup, one with a "better" setup, and one with "optimal" setup. If only the user with an "optimal" setup has success, I would argue that the box still has some weak points that need to be addressed. With any piece of hardware or software that is released, it needs to be able to operate under a variety of circumstances, not just under the 1 optimal setup under which it was tested.

Obviously, as you stated, the box itself is running the same hardware and software for the most part, so the problems are not inherent to the box itself. The problems result from the box being placed within different variable sets, and if it's unable to operate within those variable sets, D* has to take action - and they have.

I think the fact that you're seeing these updates rolled out so quickly and addressing such a wide variety of issues points to the fact that D* understands there are still weak spots in the box. If they felt the box was good as is, they'd be working on the few minor bugs people have pointed out, as opposed to devoting so much effort to overall system stability.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I read your post, and you do make some valid points, but, I would argue that just because it's good in some instances and not in others, don't assume it's necessarily NOT the firmware/software.


All good points. I'm taking the position that even though I don't experience any of the reported issues to date, I still would like to help narrow the potential problems so that everyone can enjoy the HR20. Random bugs/issues are the biggest pain in the a-- to diagnose, so my other thread was meant to help people try to eliminate as many candidate reasons as possible down to 1-2 potential sources (which may end up being the HR20 in some cases).

Thanks for your great comments.


----------



## paulman182 (Aug 4, 2006)

There are so many variables I feel it is impossible for those of us who had no part in engineering the software to determine what is pertinent and what is not.

I have had no missed or unplayable recordings, and no issues with the playback at all. About once per week the unit totally locks up and requires a reset.

But here are some facts about my HR20 that would not apply to all:

1. No MPEG4.
2. Two month old, current model TV w/HDMI
3. No SLs
4. HD never more than 20% full
5. New dish and cable install
6. Cooling fan exhausting heat from top of HR20
7. Virtually never pause live programming
8. Virtually never use commercial slip
9. Virtually never use search feature
10. Seldom record live sporting events
11. Recordings are deleted as soon as they are viewed

We do not know how many, if indeed any, of these factors have a bearing on the reliability of the HR20, but any of them could be a factor.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

All comes back to the title of the thread...if any of us that work in comsumer focused companies caused its own clients/customers to be this frustrated and ticked off...we would be fired!!! No doubt. I like the HR20 when it works...I like it better than TIVO...problem is, I cant trust it. I have to set the TIVO upstairs to make backup recordings in SD becaues the HR20 has missed a handful of shows. locked up or does some other strange thing that will screw it up. Does it happen everday? NO...Does it happen often? NO...but it does happen sporadically, which is what makes it so frustrating. Its a love/hate relationship (multiple lockups during a NFL Sunday Ticket HD party will cause you to curse D* like you never have before)

Again, I think the HR20 has great potential to be the best DVR out there...however, I paid $199 for this thing and cant think of anything else I have purchased in my life for that price that is SO UNPOLISHED and OCCASSIONALY PROBLEMATIC. Again, we would be fired...case closed. 

And to my dismay, I have held about 500 shares of D* for the last 2 years as I think by late 2007, if they can get it all right, no one will be able to touch their HD offerings (again, big IFs)...shocking part is, over all this time, the stock is up about $4 per share over the past few months...Go figure...

With an update likely coming this Wednesday, we shall see what the programmers at D* have been up to the past couple weeks (hopefully more than playing XBOX 360)....


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> All good points. I'm taking the position that even though I don't experience any of the reported issues to date, I still would like to help narrow the potential problems so that everyone can enjoy the HR20. Random bugs/issues are the biggest pain in the a-- to diagnose, so my other thread was meant to help people try to eliminate as many candidate reasons as possible down to 1-2 potential sources (which may end up being the HR20 in some cases).
> 
> Thanks for your great comments.


I'm of the same mind as you are. My HR20 has been nearly flawless to this point. I have one recording that I threw on there just because there's all that recording space and it looked vaguely interesting, and it won't record. Other than that, the shows that I WANT (my wife would argue NEED) to see, they've all gone perfect.

I'm not sure why posts on one side or the other of this issue turn into pissing matches so quickly. Regardless which side of the issue you are on, it can't be denied that some people have problems and some do not. And yet, if someone suggests "Here are some potential causes for problems, have you checked them out", they turn into raving lunatics. And on the other side, if someone suggest they've tried it all and haven't had any luck, the user with the good box turns into the lunatic...

As I said earlier in this thread, the posts with people throwing hissy fits like my 2 year old get really old, really fast. I think we're all adults here (or mostly adults), though you wouldn't know it by reading some of the idiotic junior high retorts that get thrown about when someone disagrees with your position.

If people would realize that there are ACTUAL problems occurring on a number of boxes currently in use, and would spend some time actually considering those problems, we might be able to provide some useful information to whatever D* employees are tracking these forums.

I applaud your effort to try and do just that. Though, as I said, I differ slightly on my take, and I believe that many of the problems are attributable to the HR20 - insomuch as it doesn't play well with other components that may be in users systems.... but that's a minor difference between our stances. I do think that if people would check the few things you pointed out and verify that they're all up to par, it would serve to help determine where the actual problems lie.

Instead, as I've pointed out before, a fair number of users experiencing problems refuse to do any of that simple troubleshooting before damning the HR20 itself. Spend the little bit of time to confirm that you haven't actually done something to make the box unhappy, THEN come tell us what a P.O.S. you have sitting next to your TV.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

cookpr said:


> All comes back to the title of the thread...if any of us that work in comsumer focused companies caused its own clients/customers to be this frustrated and ticked off...we would be fired!!! No doubt. I like the HR20 when it works...I like it better than TIVO...problem is, I cant trust it. I have to set the TIVO upstairs to make backup recordings in SD becaues the HR20 has missed a handful of shows. locked up or does some other strange thing that will screw it up. Does it happen everday? NO...Does it happen often? NO...but it does happen sporadically, which is what makes it so frustrating. Its a love/hate relationship (multiple lockups during a NFL Sunday Ticket HD party will cause you to curse D* like you never have before)
> 
> Again, I think the HR20 has great potential to be the best DVR out there...however, I paid $199 for this thing and cant think of anything else I have purchased in my life for that price that is SO UNPOLISHED and OCCASSIONALY PROBLEMATIC. Again, we would be fired...case closed.
> 
> ...


I think we'd all agree with you on some level. I do not work in the industry, and don't claim to know the inner workings, but it seems to be a pretty good consensus that if someone released a product with this many problems, heads would roll. Of course, who's to say heads haven't rolled.

And I agree with you as well on the box itself. The more I use it, the more I like it. I would like the dual buffer, but that's not a deal breaker for me personally. Other than that, everything else with the box I think I like better than my TIVO boxes.

As to the stock, who knows. I would guess that in large part, it does have to do with the release of the HR20. I know that I bought the box not knowing about the problems with it. I only learned of them when I came searching for information on the RSNs in HD. If I hadn't had that programming question, I never would have looked for this forum, because my box has been so good to this point. Given the number of users who have bought or are going to buy this box sight unseen, and in all likelihood, without doing any homework, D* is bound to get a boost from it...


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I'm of the same mind as you are. My HR20 has been nearly flawless to this point. I have one recording that I threw on there just because there's all that recording space and it looked vaguely interesting, and it won't record. Other than that, the shows that I WANT (my wife would argue NEED) to see, they've all gone perfect.
> 
> I'm not sure why posts on one side or the other of this issue turn into pissing matches so quickly. Regardless which side of the issue you are on, it can't be denied that some people have problems and some do not. And yet, if someone suggests "Here are some potential causes for problems, have you checked them out", they turn into raving lunatics. And on the other side, if someone suggest they've tried it all and haven't had any luck, the user with the good box turns into the lunatic...
> 
> ...


AMEN, AMEN and AMEN. :righton:

The thread heading alone is someone looking for a verbal fight. I'm with you, brother.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I'm of the same mind as you are. My HR20 has been nearly flawless to this point. I have one recording that I threw on there just because there's all that recording space and it looked vaguely interesting, and it won't record. Other than that, the shows that I WANT (my wife would argue NEED) to see, they've all gone perfect.
> 
> I'm not sure why posts on one side or the other of this issue turn into pissing matches so quickly. Regardless which side of the issue you are on, it can't be denied that some people have problems and some do not. And yet, if someone suggests "Here are some potential causes for problems, have you checked them out", they turn into raving lunatics. And on the other side, if someone suggest they've tried it all and haven't had any luck, the user with the good box turns into the lunatic...
> 
> ...


Well-reasoned argument, but I have a feeling some, not all, of those people (and I was one early in the release cycle) have already followed your advice. We just got fed up trying to troubleshoot the problems and when it got right down to it, eventually threw in the towel and pulled out the POS description. Give some people credit. In my case, and others, it wasn't a matter of just plugging it in and punching a few buttons. It was after we honestly tried to use the documentation/features, as well as check out the connectivity and other issues (and wait for those all-important software downloads), that irritation turned to anger/frustration/POS references.

In fact, I don't think the HR20 is a POS right now, as maybe my switch to component yesterday has calmed the box down. Jury is still out on that. I do believe that what has really been at the crux of the hostility between HR20 lovers and haters (the extreme positions) is that early on, the haters/sufferers vented their hostility at D* and the HR20 in these threads. They did not launch personal attacks/wiseass cracks at the people whose HR20s were working as advertised. But then what happened is some people among those who had successfully working HR20s (no need to name names, because everyone knows who they are) lashed out at those having problems on a personal level, so the HR20 haters responded in kind. I know that's how I felt early in the process. From there, things escalated.

Does that make sense? A group of unhappy users/customers had problems, and blasted D* and its new machine publicly in these threads. Well, D* doesn't return fire on forums (or even admit there are problems publicly), but many of those who haven't had any problems (and some who had minor problems) did in fact fire back, make disparaging comments about users with problems, etc. So what did those people do? They responded in kind.

Check back on the threads. See if I am wrong. I only ever launched vitriol at someone personally because their tone/message was "you're an idiot because you don't like the HR20." I know early on Earl and I got into it because I posted an anti-D* diatribe, and he rushed D*'s defense. In that case, maybe he wasn't attacking me, but I could not figure out why he and others felt compelled to defend D* under the circumstances. Sure they were trying, but that's no reason to bend over backwards defending them.

I initially came to this forum because I was having problems from day one (I Googled HR20 problems and here I was). Those issues may be gone, they may not be gone. When they are permanently fixed, my guess is the HR20 threads will fizzle. And I do really appreciate all the technical information I've learned since coming here. I'm not a software developer or programming, just a gadget junkie who likes new toys. I have to say, among the dozens of toys I've acquired (notice I didn't say bought) over the years, the HR20 is the most aggravating in a landslide.

Warning: This next section is not a Tivo endorsement, and I could care less about losing Tivo. I certainly am not, to quote one of those early perjorative terms used by one of those HR20 backers, a "Tivo hugger."

But I have had non-HD Tivos (standalone and Directivos) for 5-6 years, and never once felt compelled to visit a forum trying to solve a problem. Why? Simple. I never had a single problem in that timespan. I'd wager most other here having problems are in the same boat. Of course, there are parallel forums for Tivo owners with problems, but I can only speak from my experience with Tivo-based DVR reliability.

Now, with the HR20, here I am. That speaks volumes to me about the difference in the user experience for the HR20, whatever the explanation/excuse D* can cook up (or whatever the truth really is). In fact, I stayed away from the R15 for that very reason. And I'm glad I did. I just didn't have the willpower when it came to recording HD (and I never thought paying $500-plus for an HR10 was worth it. Instead, I used my trusty Zenth STB to watch HD in real time).

As for dropping D* because of the HR20, I do like the company, bottom line. I think they treat people well in general. Certainly, they make amends when things go wrong (which seems to be more often than not lately). But on this one, they clearly muffed the punt. Just waiting to see if they can get it right. If not, someday I will in fact move to Verizon FIOS or E* or Comcast, since I'm not a ST sub.

For now, they should get a fair chance to clean up their mess.

Sorry for the long response. But I felt it needed to be said.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

tstarn said:


> Sorry for the long response. But I felt it needed to be said.


I respectfully read and appreciated your post. My....we've all come a long way (me included).


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

No flames, but there a way too many comments in here about those that have not had many problems thinking somehow its a wiring or allignment issue or something the user has done to cause problems.

Those kind of arguments are pathetic. If you are telling me I cant flip through the Sunday Ticket HD channels frequently with the Player Trackeer enabled, thats a load of phooey. Or that I need to 'be careful' or 'move slowly' when going from MPEG 2 to MPEG 4 HD...c'mon...

Oh wait, I forgot that I dont have the HDMI cable plugged in...wow, all problems solved


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

I actually agree with you 100% tstarn. Perhaps my eloquence (or lack thereof) got in the way of getting that point across...

For those users who are having troubles, and they've tried troubleshooting to what extent they can, and still have troubles, air your complaints. I'm all for that. While I don't have the same problems, and empathy is not necessarily my strong suit, I understand that at some point you've done all you can and still aren't satisfied and there needs to be some venting.

My ONLY two complaints have been (1) those users who don't take the time to try and troubleshoot their system. They have a problem - in some cases, even MINOR problems - and then come out and declare their eternal damnation of the box. ANd (2) the childish back and forth between users with no problems and those with problems. I understand that at some point when you get flamed enough times, you're not going to put up with it anymore. That goes the same for either side of the argument. THere do seem to be a handful of people who come out of the woodworks for any thread and post their juvenile retorts.....

I'm neither a D* hater nor a D* apologist. I personally really like my box, but I'm also realistic enough to understand that there are those users who are having legitimate issues, and I'm just trying to do my part to get that point across, in an effort to try and help come to solutions for those of you who ARE having those issues.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I'm not sure why posts on one side or the other of this issue turn into pissing matches so quickly. Regardless which side of the issue you are on, it can't be denied that some people have problems and some do not. And yet, if someone suggests "Here are some potential causes for problems, have you checked them out", they turn into raving lunatics. And on the other side, if someone suggest they've tried it all and haven't had any luck, the user with the good box turns into the lunatic...


Repeating here from other posts, it isn't the customer's job to try this and try that. DTV released a new dish with much higher cabling requirements that was previously needed. DTV needs to take some responsibility in this area by also looking into dish/multiswitch/cabling/connector problems.

If I purchase new software for my PC it states the system requirements. I'm responsible for making sure my PC meets those requirements. Is DTV making clear what the cabling requirements are for the HR20 or are they just selling units to whoever orders one?

I've got a cable tester that will check coax as well as CAT-x wiring for shorts. Doesn't each installer have something like this that they can use to test the cabling from the dish to the receiver when they're installing an AT9?

Again, the buck stops at DTV. They need to step up to the plate and show they can resolve these problems.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

cookpr said:


> No flames, but there a way too many comments in here about those that have not had many problems thinking somehow its a wiring or allignment issue or something the user has done to cause problems.
> 
> Those kind of arguments are pathetic. If you are telling me I cant flip through the Sunday Ticket HD channels frequently with the Player Trackeer enabled, thats a load of phooey. Or that I need to 'be careful' or 'move slowly' when going from MPEG 2 to MPEG 4 HD...c'mon...
> 
> Oh wait, I forgot that I dont have the HDMI cable plugged in...wow, all problems solved


I agree with you that there have been posts to that affect. My only point in brining HDTVfan's post into the conversation was that there is the POTENTIAL that the issues he pointed out could lead to problems. Obviously if you've ruled out those issues, one HAS to jump to the conclusion that the HR20 is to blame.

And while I do think there is some validity to his points in regards to checking those issues, I personally think that even if one of those items checked leads to further stability, there is still fault to be laid on the HR20. The equipment HAS to perform under a wide variety of variables, and if it does not, regardless of what you may do to your particular system to eliminate offending variables, that to me is a workaround, not an end all solution. The end all solution is when D* gets the software and hardware to a point where it can handle the different variables thrown at it and it performs as designed.

In my opinion, the suggestions as to different setups to try are simply stopgaps that may or may not provide you a little bit of stability until D* gets it right. No more, no less.


----------



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Is DTV making clear what the cabling requirements are for the HR20 or are they just selling units to whoever orders one?


What percentage of customers do you think would actually "know" what kind of cable they have. More specifically... how many would know if they have solid-copper core cable?

Maybe less then 1% (that is a guess on my part).

I would then think it would be probably less then 10% then understood what pieces they had already installed (how the wire goes from the dish to their box, is there a multiswitch or an amp in the line), ect.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Repeating here from other posts, it isn't the customer's job to try this and try that. DTV released a new dish with much higher cabling requirements that was previously needed. DTV needs to take some responsibility in this area by also looking into dish/multiswitch/cabling/connector problems.
> 
> If I purchase new software for my PC it states the system requirements. I'm responsible for making sure my PC meets those requirements. Is DTV making clear what the cabling requirements are for the HR20 or are they just selling units to whoever orders one?
> 
> ...


True enough.

However, as we can all see, DTV has NOT stepped up to the plate to this point, and so unfortunately, it does fall at our feet to try and find solutions. Is it right, No, not at all. We've all said multiple times that we got this equipment expecting it to work, and it does not.

We do have to play the hand that's dealt us though, and at this particular point in time, that means we have a product that works under some circumstances and not under others, and D* has been unable to figure out what the differences are, and so we're left to discuss it in these forums and try to come up with solutions for ourselves.

To that end, all I'm asking is for a little bit of effort on the part of those having problems. If you don't want to do that, you're certainly entitled not to, but at some point, the complaints will fall on a deaf ear. To an extent, they already do, as many here have stopped reading many of the threads based solely on the title and their anticipation of what they might find inside.

With a little effort, the users with problems *MAY* find some respite while D* works on a more permanant solutions. Maybe you won't. Maybe you'll try all the suggestions and still have issues, as is bound to be the case at times. There are some people here with a wealth of experience who MIGHT be able to lend some assistance, but without details on the part of the people with problems, it's really a shot in the dark. The more information provided the better the chances someone might have some useful input.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I agree with you that there have been posts to that affect. My only point in brining HDTVfan's post into the conversation was that there is the POTENTIAL that the issues he pointed out could lead to problems. Obviously if you've ruled out those issues, one HAS to jump to the conclusion that the HR20 is to blame.
> 
> And while I do think there is some validity to his points in regards to checking those issues, I personally think that even if one of those items checked leads to further stability, there is still fault to be laid on the HR20.


If someone has a faulty Amplifier for audio, faulty internal home coax, faulty power sources, faulty or incorrect cables hooked up to equipment....explain to me again, how this is the fault of D*TV or the HR20......???

Jumping to conclusions is all to common and far too easy.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> If someone has a faulty Amplifier for audio, faulty internal home coax, faulty power sources, faulty or incorrect cables hooked up to equipment....explain to me again, how this is the fault of D*TV or the HR20......???
> 
> Jumping to conclusions is all to common and far too easy.


I fail to see any scenario in which a faulty audio amplifier is going to cause your recordings to NOT record. It may give you problems with your audio (which is one complaint I see fairly regularly here). In which case, if you solve your audio problem by checking your cabling, there is still fault to be laid on the HR20 for not recording programs correctly.

That's all I mean in saying there is still fault to be laid on the HR20. We know there are issues that can be attributed to the HR20 itself. Recordings at times not recording correctly, or sporting events deleting immediately after recording. So to say that the HR20 is perfect is certainly not fair. Nor is it fair, as you've pointed out, to lay ALL the blame for ALL the problems on the HR20. There's enough blame to go around for everyone.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I actually agree with you 100% tstarn. Perhaps my eloquence (or lack thereof) got in the way of getting that point across...
> 
> For those users who are having troubles, and they've tried troubleshooting to what extent they can, and still have troubles, air your complaints. I'm all for that. While I don't have the same problems, and empathy is not necessarily my strong suit, I understand that at some point you've done all you can and still aren't satisfied and there needs to be some venting.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Time to get some work done.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What percentage of customers do you think would actually "know" what kind of cable they have. More specifically... how many would know if they have solid-copper core cable?
> 
> Maybe less then 1% (that is a guess on my part).
> 
> I would then think it would be probably less then 10% then understood what pieces they had already installed (how the wire goes from the dish to their box, is there a multiswitch or an amp in the line), ect.


Correct. When the installer brings out the AT9 and receiver he/she should check the existing wiring. If problems are found the customer should be made aware of the problem and given options to fix those problems or not install.

I've had the original installer and two followup trips and my dish/coax is still not properly grounded. I doubt there are many installers out there that are inspecting the existing environment or actually testing continuity of the cabling prior to installation. Shouldn't this be done for every AT9 installation?


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What percentage of customers do you think would actually "know" what kind of cable they have. More specifically... how many would know if they have solid-copper core cable?
> 
> Maybe less then 1% (that is a guess on my part).
> 
> I would then think it would be probably less then 10% then understood what pieces they had already installed (how the wire goes from the dish to their box, is there a multiswitch or an amp in the line), ect.


You are correct, I had to insist that they replace my copper clad steel RG6 with copper core. The install techs keep insisting that my copper clad steel RG6 was just fine. I told them that they needed to document that if they did not want to replace the cable, they ended up replacing the cable.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I fail to see any scenario in which a faulty audio amplifier is going to cause your recordings to NOT record.


Nothing. You are mapping this one of a list of potential problem sources to a different problem. It affects audio results (as you pointed out).


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Nothing. You are mapping this one of a list of potential problem sources to a different problem. It affects audio results (as you pointed out).


Maybe I don't express myself as well as I could, but this was my point in saying that it is possible to go through your list of suggestions and find more stability for your system while still being left with problems that are attributable to the HR20.

The two are not mutually exclusive. One might find problems listed in your post, while STILL experiencing other issues. And those other issues don't automatically constitute a bad box.

My own opinion of the situation is that it's not realistic to assume that the box is completely stable or even mostly stable, and that the majority of the problems out there are because of faulty components within an installation.

It is entirely possible for a persons AV system to be 100% perfectly set up, and for that persons HR20 to behave improperly within that setup. It is NOT immediately assumable that the box is therefore bad. Because of the unfinished nature of the box, it's entirely possible that the software or firmware of the box are responsible AND fixable by an update at a later time.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Maybe I don't express myself as well as I could, but this was my point in saying that it is possible to go through your list of suggestions and find more stability for your system while still being left with problems that are attributable to the HR20.
> 
> The two are not mutually exclusive. One might find problems listed in your post, while STILL experiencing other issues. And those other issues don't automatically constitute a bad box.


That's certainly reasonable and fair. Likewise, its not right to assume that the first source of the problem is the HR20 either, if all of the other variables have not been properly checked and eliminated as suspects. Sounds like we're on the same page.


----------



## HiDefGator (Nov 20, 2005)

If I shipped software this buggy I'd be fired too. But then my software does something more important than record television shows. It seems to be clear by now that no one in this industry thinks a DVR needs to be right when it first ships. If you don't want to deal with buggy software wait a year before buying one. It's sad but true.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> That's an interesting theory as far as the release date goes. I see where you're coming from, but given that D* hasn't been able to turn the problems in the field around without creating more problems, I'm not sure that had they released the box in May or June that we'd be in any better position than we are today. Perhaps they would have worked out more of the bugs if their beta test started earlier, but ... who knows. I do agree with you though that the timing of the release is adding to the frustration.


The problem is .. WE are their Beta testers! They didn't ASK us to be Beta testers. But we are nonetheless. DirecTV doesn't HAVE a Beta program. And this is the problem. From what I have heard, they insisted that TiVo have rigorous Beta testing and even then after the test was complete, they sometimes waited months before giving the go-ahead. And again from what I've heard, TiVo Beta testers got a free gift for the trouble.

Now, DirecTV just mass ships out a brand new DVR, bugs and all, and inflicts all of the troubles on their paying customers! Why the double-standard?



> I can only imagine what my reaction would have been 10 years ago if I was in your shoes! The NFL has lost alot of its luster for me in the last several years, so I'm not interested in watching too many of those games - and so I don't have so many of those problems..


Although my team hasn't been very exciting for most of the last 14 years, I still follow them week-in/week-out. This box provides a great picture, but the usability of it is extremely frustrating!


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Instead, as I've pointed out before, a fair number of users experiencing problems refuse to do any of that simple troubleshooting before damning the HR20 itself. Spend the little bit of time to confirm that you haven't actually done something to make the box unhappy, THEN come tell us what a P.O.S. you have sitting next to your TV.


I pressed a button. I actually expected the box to instantly respond by committing the action that the manual states that the button should. It didnt. The machine locked up. This has happened about 75% of the time.

Therefore, I am officially confirming that at its current state, the box IS a boat anchor! (that gives a really good HD picture .. just don't dare press a button on the remote!)


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What percentage of customers do you think would actually "know" what kind of cable they have. More specifically... how many would know if they have solid-copper core cable?
> 
> Maybe less then 1% (that is a guess on my part).
> 
> I would then think it would be probably less then 10% then understood what pieces they had already installed (how the wire goes from the dish to their box, is there a multiswitch or an amp in the line), ect.


That's the problem. I have set up and installed every piece of D* equipment myself since 1995. Therefore, I guess that I would consider myself an "advanced user." I never had a problem -- at least, I never had a problem that was related to cabling or some other variable. The only issues I ever had is that the Sony receiver I paid $1000 for back in 1996 failed and I had to pay $100 in 1998 to get a new one. The other issue is that once or twice I had to replace a connector at the LNB because all of the sudden I was getting nothing on one receiver.

For the HR20, D* didn't even give me an option to install it myself. I actually asked if they could ship it to me and self-install, and they told me that it was not possible, nor allowed.

D* sent out an installer made certain that every sat, including the 99, was giving readings in the mid- to high-90s, and that everything was working properly.

So... those who are trying to say that D* customers who are having problems should check their cbling, yada yada blah blah, are really unnecessarily pushing the blame from D* and upon the paying customer. That is ridiculous!

And for the record .. my cabling is just fine, and all sats/transponders are reading in the mid-90s. I almost guarantee that it's not a problem with the cabling! It's a software problem. And that's why we pay D* >$100/month (+$350/yr for NFL-ST and Superfan). Therefore, it's THEIR problem. Not mine.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

Right on! I'm getting sick and tired of the blame getting shifted as far as possible from their lousy software engineers as possible. GIVE ME A BREAK. it's not my cabling. ITS THE SOFTWARE.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

matto said:


> Right on! I'm getting sick and tired of the blame getting shifted as far as possible from their lousy software engineers as possible. GIVE ME A BREAK. it's not my cabling. ITS THE SOFTWARE.


Same here. Software and HDMI incompatibility (in my specific case, it seems). We'll see how this week's big download goes. Prediction: Download or not, we'll be having same arguments, uh discussion, next week. This whole forum (HR20 Q&A) is starting to morph into Groundhog Day.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> That's the problem. I have set up and installed every piece of D* equipment myself since 1995. Therefore, I guess that I would consider myself an "advanced user." I never had a problem -- at least, I never had a problem that was related to cabling or some other variable. The only issues I ever had is that the Sony receiver I paid $1000 for back in 1996 failed and I had to pay $100 in 1998 to get a new one. The other issue is that once or twice I had to replace a connector at the LNB because all of the sudden I was getting nothing on one receiver.
> 
> For the HR20, D* didn't even give me an option to install it myself. I actually asked if they could ship it to me and self-install, and they told me that it was not possible, nor allowed.
> 
> ...


I agree NFLNut. That's the real point. DTV wants their so called installers to do the job yet those guys are incompetent and can't even properly gound a dish.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

tstarn said:


> This whole forum (HR20 Q&A) is starting to morph into Groundhog Day.


You want a better example, go look at the R15 side. Less than 30 days to the one year anniversary of that DVR and we're still having problems.

After a year of DVR releases and two very failed DVR product releases maybe DTV needs to get out of the DVR market and start talking nice to Tivo.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> I pressed a button. I actually expected the box to instantly respond by committing the action that the manual states that the button should. It didnt. The machine locked up. This has happened about 75% of the time.
> 
> Therefore, I am officially confirming that at its current state, the box IS a boat anchor! (that gives a really good HD picture .. just don't dare press a button on the remote!)


If your receiver is really doing that you should call DirecTV and get a replacement sent to you. No way it should be doing that.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

matto said:


> Right on! I'm getting sick and tired of the blame getting shifted as far as possible from their lousy software engineers as possible. GIVE ME A BREAK. it's not my cabling. ITS THE SOFTWARE.


No doubt there are those who would try to shift blame from the box to your personal setup.

I don't deny for a second that the box has issues. I do believe though, that two things can be equally true. The machine can have issues, but there can also be other issues which may be caused by other factors. I pointed out to HDTVfan in response to his list of suggestions that a faulty cable or fault audio amp may be a potential cause of audio problems, but obviously doesn't cause your box to skip recordings.

Here's my take: For the sake of argument, let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Assume for this argument that faulty cabling between the dish and the receiver might cause signal fade which would contribute to lockups and missed recordings. Replacing the cabling with a higher quality cabling that meets the specs D* has for this box may reduce signal fade to the point that you miss fewer recordings and lock up less.

That doesn't mean the cabling was causing your problems. It means that my investigating other avenues, you've found a stopgap that lessens your problems until D* gets their box to the point it needs to be. If the signal fades, problems return, and you're no better off than you were before.

Taking the time to try and find the "optimal" configuration within the parameters of your own system may provide some stability. That's not to deflect blame from D* and their engineers, where the blame most certainly belongs. However, lets also be realistic here. Your issues likely aren't going to be fixed with the next software release. Or the one after that, or maybe even the one after that.

All this means that if you are having problems with your system, you are left with 3 choices. Option 1, do nothing, live with a machine that doesn't work, come here and post your complaints. Option 2, go somewhere else to get your TV service. Or, option 3, start screwing around to see if there's anything you can do within your system to make it behave better. It's been said that some users have better luck with component than they do with HDMI. WE ALL KNOW HDMI SHOULD WORK, but the reality of the situation is that in many cases it does not, and you may have better luck with another connection. If you're having audio problems, perhaps it has to do with the way your audio device and the HR20 are communicating and a different connection, while not preferable, may provide you some respite from your problems.

I know it's not the ideal answer, and I wish I had the magical answer as to why my system works while you have problems. I know you just want your system to work. I know you're aggravated with D* and the product they've rolled out. I'm not saying you shouldn't be, or that your own error is causing your problems. I realize the box has problems which affect you directly.

Sorry for the long response, but just because there are suggestions out there that you check cabling and connections and so on doesn't mean that we're trying to shift blame from D*. Anyone who claims that the box has no issues is foolish, but under certain circumstances the box is behaving mostly well. There are those of us for whom it is behaving well who just want to pass along whatever information we can which might allow you to improve your situaiton. I understand these aren't the answers you want, but we're dealing with a flawed product which in all likelihood will remain flawed for at least the near future. Sadly, because of D*'s difficulty in getting the problems fixed to this point, the onus falls on you, the end user, to try and figure out if you can modify your circumstances in order to gain yourself some stability.

This is the sad state of affairs that we find ourselves in. It's a stupid, stupid, answer, I know. It's madness that you, the consumer, know more about the problems than the CSRs who you might call for help. It's completely ludicrous that you know more about the specifications of the machine than the installers who are entrusted to install your machine, and who D* mandates you MUST use. I don't for one second think that D* should get a free pass for any of this. But there are people here who are trying to give you constructive input which you may be able to put to good use. It may solve absolutely nothing. It may be that your given set of parameters doesn't avail itself to stability given the current state of the HR20.

If you've already done so and had no luck, you're left at the mercy of D* to try and solve your problems, and this post is not directed to you. But there are those who may not have tried any of the workarounds suggested, and there are those who undoubtedly will come in search of help when their HR20 is installed in the coming months and doesn't work, and these posts may prove helpful to them down the road.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> You want a better example, go look at the R15 side. Less than 30 days to the one year anniversary of that DVR and we're still having problems.
> 
> After a year of DVR releases and two very failed DVR product releases maybe DTV needs to get out of the DVR market and start talking nice to Tivo.


I'm sure the "other" side has plenty of specious (legal term, you gotta love it) arguments that the R15 and the HR20 are not comparable. But I did read through the R15 threads (and other reviews) and that's why I still have R10s (3 of them). Scary, to think we could be having the same discussion a year from now. Any thoughts on how this might be different in the press, considering all that DTV is laying on the HR20's success from a competitive POV? Seems whatever provider (cable, satellite, fiber optic, etc.) gets the HD DVR right first for 99.9 percent of its customers will make some real competitive inroads.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> I'm sure the "other" side has plenty of specious (legal term, you gotta love it) arguments that the R15 and the HR20 are not comparable. But I did read through the R15 threads (and other reviews) and that's why I still have R10s (3 of them). Scary, to think we could be having the same discussion a year from now. Any thoughts on how this might be different in the press, considering all that DTV is laying on the HR20's success from a competitive POV? Seems whatever provider (cable, satellite, fiber optic, etc.) gets the HD DVR right first for 99.9 percent of its customers will make some real competitive inroads.


Sadly, I see the distinct possibility, given D*s track record to date, that we may be having these discussions for some time. 

As to the competitive inroads... I think in large part D* is banking on the new birds accomplishing that for them. If they can actually deliver the programming they claim is possible with the new satellites, they would become far and away the leading provider of HDTV - assuming of course that someone else doesn't make a huge jump in their HD offerings

If D* has twice or three times the HD content of it's competitors, don't you think that there are alot of consumers who would live with a buggy DVR in order to get that content, as opposed to going to a competetor with a stable product but fewer offerings?


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> No doubt there are those who would try to shift blame from the box to your personal setup.
> 
> I don't deny for a second that the box has issues. I do believe though, that two things can be equally true. The machine can have issues, but there can also be other issues which may be caused by other factors. I pointed out to HDTVfan in response to his list of suggestions that a faulty cable or fault audio amp may be a potential cause of audio problems, but obviously doesn't cause your box to skip recordings.
> 
> ...


With all due respect Sharkie, I'd venture that most people here who have had problems are already following the basic guidelines as set forth in the D* documentation to use the HR20. And that should be enough. Next thing someone will suggest that to get an HR20 to work properly, you need to take an online certification course or something along those lines. I;m kidding, of course. But...it's a consumer product, nothing more. It should work, or D* should fix it fast, for everyone who has leased one. It's not about being an early adopter, that's a red herring. Buying a new product doesn't make you an early adopter, or beta tester, or whatever.

Check out the posts on the issues/problems many R15 owners have had for NEARLY a year! Another problematic DTV DVR, and it didn't even have the MPEG 4 issues to deal with.

Sure you are a decent, nice person. But in this case, I can't agree that while D* fiddles (yes, we know, the next download is coming), the rest of us (with problems) deserve to burn, or concoct our own fixes if possible.

As for your choices, believe me, if there was a viable alternative, I would be heading in that direction. Having said that, I will seriously consider FIOS when it comes to town. Sure there are others who will consider their options if the HR20 doesn't work for them within a month or two (or after football season).


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Sadly, I see the distinct possibility, given D*s track record to date, that we may be having these discussions for some time.
> 
> As to the competitive inroads... I think in large part D* is banking on the new birds accomplishing that for them. If they can actually deliver the programming they claim is possible with the new satellites, they would become far and away the leading provider of HDTV - assuming of course that someone else doesn't make a huge jump in their HD offerings
> 
> If D* has twice or three times the HD content of it's competitors, don't you think that there are alot of consumers who would live with a buggy DVR in order to get that content, as opposed to going to a competetor with a stable product but fewer offerings?


Not really. I think the major networks, some movie channels and a smattering of HD channels (HDNET, etc.) are plenty of HD for me. I'd rather have a reliable DVR. Can't speak for other consumers. Of course, that's not a comment on people who just want an HD receiver, not a recorder. My H20 has been working fine in the bedroom (except for the 8MM effect on locals), the little time I really use it.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

tstarn said:


> But in this case, I can't agree that while D* fiddles (yes, we know, the next download is coming), the rest of us (with problems) deserve to burn, or concoct our own fixes if possible.


I don't think for one second that you deserve to concoct your own fix. I agree with you 100% that D* should fix these problems and fix them fast.

I'm just not confident that D* can do that. They haven't been able to fix them fast up till now, and, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I am one who feels D* is on the right path, but I just don't see it being a quick fix. We're in it for the long run.

Which means, right or wrong, like it or not, D* is leaving you to concoct your own fixes if you want to gain anymore reliability.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Sadly, I see the distinct possibility, given D*s track record to date, that we may be having these discussions for some time.
> 
> As to the competitive inroads... I think in large part D* is banking on the new birds accomplishing that for them. If they can actually deliver the programming they claim is possible with the new satellites, they would become far and away the leading provider of HDTV - assuming of course that someone else doesn't make a huge jump in their HD offerings
> 
> If D* has twice or three times the HD content of it's competitors, don't you think that there are alot of consumers who would live with a buggy DVR in order to get that content, as opposed to going to a competetor with a stable product but fewer offerings?


In the end, I don't care what HDTV programming DTV has if they can't deliver a dependable HD DVR. They aren't there yet.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't think for one second that you deserve to concoct your own fix. I agree with you 100% that D* should fix these problems and fix them fast.
> 
> I'm just not confident that D* can do that. They haven't been able to fix them fast up till now, and, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I am one who feels D* is on the right path, but I just don't see it being a quick fix. We're in it for the long run.
> 
> Which means, right or wrong, like it or not, D* is leaving you to concoct your own fixes if you want to gain anymore reliability.


I think DTV is on the right path as far as programming (not software) goes. They will win on that front. Given that, I think DTV is WAY over their head in the venue of DVR development/software programming/testing. They're babes in the woods....so to speak. Their coding and testing procedures need a complete overhaul. Folks currently in charge of these units need to go. It would be a shame for DTV to have the best offerings available in cable or SAT yet they can't get either of their DVRs to work correctly.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> I think DTV is on the right path as far as programming (not software) goes. They will win on that front. Given that, I thing DTV is WAY over their head in the venue of DVR development/software programming/testing. They're babes in the woods....so to speak. Their coding and testing procedures need a complete overhaul. Folks currently in charge of these units need to go. It would be a shame for DTV to have the best offerings available in cable or SAT yet they can't get either of their DVRs to work correctly.


I agree with you 100% on the programming aspect.

IF (and it's a really, really big IF given their track record) DTV can get the HR20 stable, I think it's a nice DVR. Obviously in its current state where it can't be relied upon to record, that can't be said about it. I do actually like the DVR though. There are some features that would be nice to see added. I'm personally dying for OTA since I have no HD locals via D*. All in all though, I have actually been pleasantly surprised by the HR20. IF D* can address the weaknesses in the box, I think they'll put themselves in a really good position, with great programming and solid hardware.

If they can't manage to get it stable, I think you're right. It really puts them in a bad position with good programming but awful hardware with which to view it.

I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll get the HR20 under control. Maybe it's naive, and maybe I'll be singing a different tune if the next software release makes my HR20 start acting naughty, but at this particular moment in time, I have some optimism for the future....

Only time will tell on that one, I suppose.


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> You want a better example, go look at the R15 side. Less than 30 days to the one year anniversary of that DVR and we're still having problems.
> 
> After a year of DVR releases and two very failed DVR product releases maybe DTV needs to get out of the DVR market and start talking nice to Tivo.


The R15 indeed does not inspire confidence in the HR20 becoming stable and bug-free anytime soon.

I don't see D*admitting defeat and going back to Tivo (though I would dearly love having a Tivo MPEG4 box).

If they throw enough money at the platform (including hiring sufficient programming talent), they should eventually get their boxes where they need to be.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> In the end, I don't care what HDTV programming DTV has if they can't deliver a dependable HD DVR. They aren't there yet.


I agree with you. I'm just curious as to how many others out there might do just that. They're probably NOT the users who would be frequenting these boards. But I wonder if there are "casual" TV viewers who would opt for programming over stable hardware.

Probably not an answer we'll get here, as many of us are here specifically to find out why the HR20 doesn't do what it's supposed to do. If there are users that don't care about the instability, they probably aren't here looking for answers and adding to the conversations....


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

SHARKIE_FAN (and others).........ITS THE SOFTWAREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.....my boxes (DVR or not) have worked flawlessly for 7 years (364 weeks)...that is until that past 7 weeks with my new shiny HD DVR....

Stop this "its your cable" nonsense....or this early adopter nonsense...or that its groundbreaking techonolgy BS...

*IT IS THE SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

cookpr said:


> SHARKIE_FAN (and others).........ITS THE SOFTWAREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.....my boxes (DVR or not) have worked flawlessly for 7 years (364 weeks)...that is until that past 7 weeks with my new shiny HD DVR....
> 
> Stop this "its your cable" nonsense....or this early adopter nonsense...or that its groundbreaking techonolgy BS...
> 
> *IT IS THE SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


Do you actually read the posts? No one is denying the box is flawed. We understand that the software has issues.

But there are documented reports of people using different connections and achieving some stability from their machine.

It's not perfect, but it's a start. If switching from HDMI to Component can get someone from 5 lockups a week to 2, why would you not want to try it?

We're not saying that the cable is causing your problems. OBVIOUSLY the software is buggy and causing a conflict with that persons HDMI connection. But if you can switch a cable here and there to lessen your headaches, it's at least a stopgap until D* can get it fixed.

I've said more than once that anyone who claims the problem is NOT the box is a fool. But two things can be equally true. YOu can have a POS box and you may also be able to find a more stable box by connecting it in different configurations.


----------



## cookpr (Aug 24, 2006)

^^Fair enough....but using component over HDMI is not a solution, nor is removing the bband converters, its a workaround.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

cookpr said:


> ^^Fair enough....but using component over HDMI is not a solution, nor is removing the bband converters, its a workaround.


That is the truth. Amen, brother! Workarounds are not solutions.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Sadly, I see the distinct possibility, given D*s track record to date, that we may be having these discussions for some time.
> 
> As to the competitive inroads... I think in large part D* is banking on the new birds accomplishing that for them. If they can actually deliver the programming they claim is possible with the new satellites, they would become far and away the leading provider of HDTV - assuming of course that someone else doesn't make a huge jump in their HD offerings
> 
> If D* has twice or three times the HD content of it's competitors, don't you think that there are alot of consumers who would live with a buggy DVR in order to get that content, as opposed to going to a competetor with a stable product but fewer offerings?


Live with a buggy DVR for two, three or even ten times the content and I can't just sit down with the remote and watch? No Thanks.

I keep Cablevision Basic Cable for backup and to feed my Tivo Standalone. They have some things I'd like to see, their prices seem Ok, darn shame for them that many of their channels have a bad picture and their DVR is no better.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

cookpr said:


> ^^Fair enough....but using component over HDMI is not a solution, nor is removing the bband converters, its a workaround.


Agreed, 100%. It is NOT a solution, nor will it ever be. BUt given the state of the box, it's a workaround which may serve as a stopgap until (if) D* can get their stuff together.

That's the only point I've been personally trying to get across. While the suggestions you see are NOT the end all fix, they may (or may not) serve to lessen your issues.

It's not right, the onus SHOULD be on D* to fix it, but at the rate they're going, sadly, the onus falls on YOU, the end user whose box doesn't perform as it should, to find workarounds which may help your particular situation.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> Agreed, 100%. It is NOT a solution, nor will it ever be. BUt given the state of the box, it's a workaround which may serve as a stopgap until (if) D* can get their stuff together.(


As long as DTV doesn't see the workarounds as a fix and don't work on the problem any further.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> As long as DTV doesn't see the workarounds as a fix and don't work on the problem any further.


I don't know how D* operates, beyond what I've experienced as a customer, but to leave it as it is right now, or even in a state SIMILAR to what it is now would be idiotic. Personally, I don't see how they could call such workarounds a fix and move onto other problems... but one can never say for sure...

Like most of you, I expect the box to work. Regardless of how I hook it up, to this component or that one, I expect it to work. I've had my DTivo hooked up a half dozen ways since I bought it 3 or 4 years ago. As my other AV equipment grows and evolves, I've made use of different connections. I expect this box to do the same.

I can only ASSUME that D* is working towards creating a product stable enough that this would be the case... To do otherwise would be foolhardy, IMHO.


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> I don't know how D* operates, beyond what I've experienced as a customer, but to leave it as it is right now, or even in a state SIMILAR to what it is now would be idiotic. Personally, I don't see how they could call such workarounds a fix and move onto other problems... but one can never say for sure...
> 
> Like most of you, I expect the box to work. Regardless of how I hook it up, to this component or that one, I expect it to work. I've had my DTivo hooked up a half dozen ways since I bought it 3 or 4 years ago. As my other AV equipment grows and evolves, I've made use of different connections. I expect this box to do the same.
> 
> I can only ASSUME that D* is working towards creating a product stable enough that this would be the case... To do otherwise would be foolhardy, IMHO.


We can all only hope.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

HDMI issues are also caused by bad software. It's still the software.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

matto said:


> HDMI issues are also caused by bad software. It's still the software.


We're all aware of that. We've already established that. The point is that by bypassing the HDMI you may find some stability for the box.

That doesn't mean the cable CAUSED the problem - it means you've worked around a known issue with the D* software.

For the umpteenth time, most of us suggesting that you check cabling and the likes are NOT in any way suggesting that your cabling is the SOURCE of your problems. What we're suggesting is that the software has bugs, and by checking or swapping cabling, you MAY be able to stabilize your machine to some extent. It is NOT a long term SOLUTION. It is a STOPGAP. Nothing more.


----------



## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

I have to wonder if Rupert's other DVRs in other countries work OK or do they have the same kind of problems. I also wonder if the new models are based on those or if they were already in development prior to his purchase. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that he is rolling his own DVRs over in england too.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> We're all aware of that. We've already established that. The point is that by bypassing the HDMI you may find some stability for the box.
> 
> That doesn't mean the cable CAUSED the problem - it means you've worked around a known issue with the D* software.


point taken. i am getting a little sensitive about the whole onus that's been shifted from D* QA to the customer, that's all. I will try to restrain my jihad


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> If your receiver is really doing that you should call DirecTV and get a replacement sent to you. No way it should be doing that.


Based on a multitude of people posting the same glitches over and over, it is apparent that it is software related! Not the hardware!


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

matto said:


> point taken. i am getting a little sensitive about the whole onus that's been shifted from D* QA to the customer, that's all. I will try to restrain my jihad


Agreed. They have pawned off the onus on the customer, which sucks.

It's funny, among all the "early adopter" talk, they mention all the other products you might buy early and be prone to problems. But, if you buy a car in its first model year, you take it to the dealer and THEY FIX IT. You take it the day it misbehaves and they work on it, and give it back to you.

Instead, with this product, they drop it off on your door and it may or may not work. If not, just keep your pants on because an update will be coming. If it does work, everyone do a happy dance.


----------



## NFLnut (Sep 29, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I don't see D*admitting defeat and going back to Tivo (though I would dearly love having a Tivo MPEG4 box).


Maybe/maybe not. But I would have loved it if they hadn't severed the relationship just prior to the switch to mpeg4! That way, those of us who wanted to stay on the TiVo platform could do so and still be able to receive HD-Locals.

I am still using my two original DSR6000's. They may not have the new bells and whistles like folders, mp3 and picture storage, etc, but then I am not interested in storing mp3's and pictures on my DVR (folders would be nice, but are not a deal-breaker for me). Therefore, if I had to make my DirecTiVo w/ mpeg4 capability last for a few years without upgrading, that would be fine. All I want is a stable box that records, stores, and plays back television without glitches. But I also want a box which doesn't go through D/A conversion prior to storage (i.e. a standalone).

Now I know, based on the fact that at the current state that TiVo won't be building any new DirecTiVos, but a guy can dream! :grin:


----------



## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> It's funny, among all the "early adopter" talk, they mention all the other products you might buy early and be prone to problems. But, if you buy a car in its first model year, you take it to the dealer and THEY FIX IT. You take it the day it misbehaves and they work on it, and give it back to you.


Yes. Not to mention that they made the decision to build a new model "vehicle" from scratch, rather than work with their partner to refine and extend a proven performer.

In dropping Tivo, D* placed the onus squarely upon themselves to produce DVRs that work at least as well and reliably as the Tivos they replaced...hopefully even better.

I haven't given up hope that they'll get there...but I'm not optimistic. For now I stay with my HR10-250, and read this board with interest.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

NFLnut said:


> Based on a multitude of people posting the same glitches over and over, it is apparent that it is software related! Not the hardware!


Jeese I'm sorry. If it was totally a software thing then everyone would have the same problems which they obviously do not. There is something with your box and how it interacts with the software causing the issue. I only suggested getting a new box because you can have one fed-exed to you in a couple days and see if that box is better (as it has worked for some). Why not try and see instead of banging your head on the desk with the same problem?

Same thing I tell people with HDMI that have trouble that refuse to try using component. Why keep stressing yourself when a solution/workaround could be 5 minutes away. If you have HDMI and you have any kind of trouble, try component. The problem may very well be the HR20 HDMI software talking with the TV's HDMI software. That's obvisous. And then report your TV specs in the bug thread. But in the meantime you may be bug free.

But what do I know...


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Jeese I'm sorry. If it was totally a software thing then everyone would have the same problems which they obviously do not. There is something with your box and how it interacts with the software causing the issue. I only suggested getting a new box because you can have one fed-exed to you in a couple days and see if that box is better (as it has worked for some). Why not try and see instead of banging your head on the desk with the same problem?
> 
> Same thing I tell people with HDMI that have trouble that refuse to try using component. Why keep stressing yourself when a solution/workaround could be 5 minutes away. If you have HDMI and you have any kind of trouble, try component. The problem may very well be the HR20 HDMI software talking with the TV's HDMI software. That's obvisous. And then report your TV specs in the bug thread. But in the meantime you may be bug free.
> 
> But what do I know...


Agree on this one, since my HDMI to component move has been working for, oh, 72 hours now - a record without a freeze-up. In fact, despite the obvious analog to digital conversion issue, if component continues to deliver, I won't go back to HDMI at all. Of course, I hope the next download doesn't wreck my run, even if it is just a few days.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Jeese I'm sorry. If it was totally a software thing then everyone would have the same problems which they obviously do not.


Not quite. Any complex application, given enough different bugs, can produce widely different symptoms to the end user. Some users may experience no problems and others can experience problems caused by many different bugs, each on it's own maybe not that bad, but when combined all hell breaks loose.

If there were just a few bugs that manifested themselves in the screen in which they reside, everyone would experience the same problems and they could be easily fixed. But if three different screens, with three different bugs all add up, the fourth screen, without any bugs, could be the screen that hangs/freezes.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Why keep stressing yourself when a solution/workaround could be 5 minutes away.


Because if the customers shut up and use the workaround, the company will assume:

1) The problem no longer exists, and is therefore unimportant, or
2) The customers do not care, and the problem is therefore unimportant.

The solution is not, "Stop using the functionality you paid for, and instead use this kludge to get around a broken aspect of this product".

The solution is, "Complain long, loud, in as many fora and with as many means possible until the company gets the point that this is absolutely, positively unacceptable to their customers, and they fix it immediately."

When your new car stops working, you don't take the bus and hope the company issues a recall or sends you official notice of the problem and details on how to get it fixed. You take it back to the dealership and demand the problem be fixed immediately. When the dealership fails to deliver, you rally the support of other customers with the same or similar problems with the product and the vendor's inability and/or unwillingness to address the problems. You raise awareness of the problems and your concerns in multiple venues, and keep it raised until the problems are addressed to the customers' satisfaction. You address your complaints via formal channels to oversight organizations and regulatory bodies.

You don't just roll over, hide your head, and hope it all goes away. As popular as that may be with consumers today, there's a large segment of the buying public that simply will not take this sort of thing, and will continue to complain until the basic functionality of the product is fixed, and becomes reliable.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

mcl said:


> Because if the customers shut up and use the workaround, the company will assume:
> 
> 1) The problem no longer exists, and is therefore unimportant, or
> 2) The customers do not care, and the problem is therefore unimportant.
> ...


Just my .02, but if I was in that position, I would stop using the functionality in an effort to secure my sanity, AND complain long, loud, and hard in as many different ways as possible.

We're not suggesting that you roll over and play dead while D* takes it to you. We're suggesting that there may be scenarios under which your box in it's current state would perform better. Take advantage of them, as this is the only HD DVR you're going to get from D* for the forseeable future. In the mean time, while you employ your workarounds, ***** and moan at D* daily until they get the problem fixed and you can go back to using the product as designed.

It blows my mind that you would bypass solutions which would stabilize your machine simply to get your point across to D*. Why? They're not in your home looking at how your system is hooked up. Hook it up in whatever manner gets you the best performance, while doing everything within your power to convey to D* the message that the box they've released is absolutely, positively incomplete and unusable. They have no way of knowing that you've employed workarounds while you continue to voice your displeasure.

When your new car stops working and you take it to the dealer to have them fix it, at which point the dealer alerts the manufacturer of an issue which requires a recall, do you park your car while the manufacturer gets its ducks in a row in order to issue the recall to have your car fixed, or do you continue to drive your car AND continue to hound dealer and/or manufacturer until the recall is complete and your car is fixed. You're suggesting that they park their car and complain to D* until it's fixed. I say drive that sonofa***** into the ground and complain to D*.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

Sharkie_Fan said:


> It blows my mind that you would bypass solutions which would stabilize your machine simply to get your point across to D*. Why? They're not in your home looking at how your system is hooked up. Hook it up in whatever manner gets you the best performance


I think that's the point that a lot of people are trying to make: The method that's supposed to provide the best performance DOESN'T WORK!

Personally, I don't use HDMI. I bought a commercial-grade plasma back before HDMI (or even HDCP) were realities. I've got component, and a VGA port.

The problems I DO have include an inability to manually record shows, buffers that freeze, recorded programs that have to be restarted repeatedly before both the audio and video play because one or the other isn't working, disappearing to-do items, mysteriously cancelled recordings, and a workaround that wipes all guide data.

What, pray tell, are the "workarounds" for those issues, exactly?


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

an hr10


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

matto said:


> an hr10


Back! Back in your box, you!


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

mcl said:


> I think that's the point that a lot of people are trying to make: The method that's supposed to provide the best performance DOESN'T WORK!
> 
> ...
> 
> What, pray tell, are the "workarounds" for those issues, exactly?


The point we are trying to make is that WE UNDERSTAND THE METHOD THAT IS SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE THE BEST PERFORMANCE DOESN"T WORK. No one is disputing that fact.

The particular workaround we were discussing here was HDMI flaws, and the fact that many have found switching to component connections improves their stability. That is the specific workaround which bonscot87 was referring to when you said that the consumer should not employ those workarounds because it conveys the message to D* that the problem is unimportant.

No one is suggesting that these work for everyone. They are suggestions which have had positive results for some. If one tries switching the cables, one of two things will happen. EIther it will help or it wont. In either case, it really hasn't cost you anything. If your box is one that is behaving horribly, it can't really get any worse, can it? So if some suggestion in the forums applies to your situation, give it a try, and you may or may not have some success.

In the mean time, we all understand that nothing works as it is supposed to, and we anticipate reading posts to that affect each and every day until the box DOES work as it's supposed to.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

I've always suggested what makes sense if you have an HDMI issue.

Report it in the bug thread with all the detail that Earl suggests.
Then go use component until the next software update. No sense even looking at HDMI until then, it's not going to get any better.
When the next software update comes down try HDMI again. If it works now great, you're all set. If not then once again report the details in the bug thread for that release. Then go back to component.
Rinse, repeat.

That way, as suggested by others, you are telling DirecTV that HDMI isn't working for you and in the meantime you get to enjoy your DVR with component (which honestly is not worse then HDMI).

Now if you have problems when using component this workaround isn't meant for you. You've got other issues, probably MPEG 4 related.

Probably 90% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
1) MPEG4 issues
2) HDMI issues

I probably have a bug free box so far because I have neither one.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Probably 90% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
> 1) MPEG4 issues
> 2) HDMI issues
> 
> I probably have a bug free box so far because I have neither one.


My thoughts exactly


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Probably 90% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
> 1) MPEG4 issues
> 2) HDMI issues


Uhh. You're conveniently forgetting the widespread scheduling issues with missing, 'partial', and mysteriously 'cancelled' recordings, manual recordings, the 'searching for signal' issue, and the various idiotic UI screwups like the Dolby Digital settings.

Thats a lot more than 10% for most folks.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> I've always suggested what makes sense if you have an HDMI issue.
> 
> Report it in the bug thread with all the detail that Earl suggests.
> Then go use component until the next software update. No sense even looking at HDMI until then, it's not going to get any better.
> ...


Since I don't use HDMI (and if you'd read my posts, you'd know that), and since my problems are with every recording, not just those from my locals, you're just batting .000 on this.

Probably 100% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
1) Terrible programming
2) Abysmal QA


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcl said:


> Since I don't use HDMI (and if you'd read my posts, you'd know that), and since my problems are with every recording, not just those from my locals, you're just batting .000 on this.


And like I said, you've got other issues then. I'd get a new box. That's what I would do if I was in your position.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> And like I said, you've got other issues then. I'd get a new box. That's what I would do if I was in your position.


Given the supply problems and quality control issues, what makes you think that:

1) A box is available, and
2) it'd be any better

?

I'd rather be paid for unwittingly becoming a beta-tester and QA tester for this half-baked product.

I do enough QA in my daily job. I very much don't enjoy coming home to spend my time doing it for consumer electronics manufacturers for free, much less when I'm actively paying them for the privilege of playing guinea pig.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

matto said:


> Uhh. You're conveniently forgetting the widespread scheduling issues with missing, 'partial', and mysteriously 'cancelled' recordings, manual recordings, the 'searching for signal' issue, and the various idiotic UI screwups like the Dolby Digital settings.
> 
> Thats a lot more than 10% for most folks.


Well, how about 80% then? 

Honestly though, a lot of the things you just mentioned I see posted as problems on MPEG4 locals. Thus all lumped in there.

And actually a lot of the partial, auto deleted recordings has been traced to a loss of signal during the recording or channel goes dark before the end of the recording for premium sports channels like Sunday Ticket or Center Ice. HR20 is dumb in that it decides to cancel/delete the whole recording.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcl said:


> Given the supply problems and quality control issues, what makes you think that:
> 
> 1) A box is available, and
> 2) it'd be any better
> ...


If you're not willing to try then there isn't much anyone can do for you. You're just banging your head on the wall for no reason. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Good luck.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

mcl said:


> Given the supply problems and quality control issues, what makes you think that:
> 
> 1) A box is available, and
> 2) it'd be any better
> ...


All that Bonscott is trying to say is that there are people out there (myself included) that use the HR20 frequently and who's problems are little to none. There has to be some explaination as to why some of us have reliable units while others don't.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

mcl said:


> Probably 100% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
> 1) Terrible programming
> 2) Abysmal QA


You forgot:
3) Pinheaded management.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, how about 80% then?
> 
> Honestly though, a lot of the things you just mentioned I see posted as problems on MPEG4 locals. Thus all lumped in there.
> 
> And actually a lot of the partial, auto deleted recordings has been traced to a loss of signal during the recording or channel goes dark before the end of the recording for premium sports channels like Sunday Ticket or Center Ice. HR20 is dumb in that it decides to cancel/delete the whole recording.


Well, let's see: Many people have the problems on the locals, sure. Just like they have THE IDENTICAL PROBLEMS ON THE NON-MPEG4 channels!

And a lot of the problems you mention with signal strength/loss of signal occur without signal strength problems, or loss of signal as well.

Seriously, way to abuse logic there, guy. That's tantamount to saying, "Gee. This fork in my eye really hurts when I'm in the kitchen. Whenever I'm in the kitchen with a fork in my eye, it hurts. A lot. Other people who have forks in their eye report it really hurts while they're in the kitchen. These same people, myself included, have mentioned that it hurts in other areas of the house too, but since we just built the kitchen, I'll mention that as the source of my woes. Therefore, going to the living room will make the pain magically vanish!"

I'm deeply concerned for you and your highly-selective worldview. Have you considered solipsism as a guiding philosophy in your life?


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

Twosted said:


> All that Bonscott is trying to say is that there are people out there (myself included) that use the HR20 frequently and who's problems are little to none. There has to be some explaination as to why some of us have reliable units while others don't.


Think for a second. Sit down. Take a deep breath. Let this soak through your pate.

WHY ON ZEUS' LICE-INFESTED BEARD WOULD ANYONE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THEIR UNIT GIVE A DINGO'S BOLLOCKS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR TROUBLE-FREE UNIT?!?


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

mcl said:


> Think for a second. Sit down. Take a deep breath. Let this soak through your pate.
> 
> WHY ON ZEUS' LICE-INFESTED BEARD WOULD ANYONE HAVING TROUBLE WITH THEIR UNIT GIVE A DINGO'S BOLLOCKS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR TROUBLE-FREE UNIT?!?


Woah, Dude you have issues, and I am not talking about your HR20:nono:


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

Twosted said:


> Woah, Dude you have issues, and I am not talking about your HR20:nono:


I think his point is that repeatedly pointing out that your dvr never has problems adds nothing to the diagnostic process.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

matto said:


> I think his point is that repeatedly pointing out that your dvr never has problems adds nothing to the diagnostic process.


And stating over and over how he has missed recordings does? This is a forum, you will have point and counterpoint. The trick is doing that and still being civil. He obviously is unable to do both.


----------



## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

Twosted said:


> And stating over and over how he has missed recordings does? This is a forum, you will have point and counterpoint. The trick is doing that and still being civil. He obviously is unable to do both.


Can you empathize a bit? Imagine if your DVR wasn't working quite so well.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

Twosted said:


> And stating over and over how he has missed recordings does?


When people consistently and repeatedly insist that my problems are due to an interface I never use and a signal problem I never have?

Yes. Yes it does.

When those same people consistently and repeatedly dismiss reports of those same problems in areas other than the ones that conveniently fit with the pat and trite "explanations" being offered?

Yes. Yes it does.

And as for being civil, I don't believe the level of pig-headedness and willful ignorance exhibited by that lot qualifies as "civilized", so your point it moot.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

matto said:


> Can you empathize a bit? Imagine if your DVR wasn't working quite so well.


Totally. If you read my posts in other threads I have not slammed other people who have had these problems. I know people are having legitimate issues. To deny that would be stupid. All I was trying to say is that there has to be some reason as to why some of us aren't having issues while others are having nightmare experiences.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Now if you have problems when using component this workaround isn't meant for you. You've got other issues, probably MPEG 4 related.
> 
> Probably 90% of all the problems with the HR20 can be traced to one of two things:
> 1) MPEG4 issues
> ...


BUZZZZZZZZZ!!!!! WRONG!

The following bugs occur on non MPEG2 recording and Component video setups:

Partial history / Missing recording bug
771 Bug
Unwatchable/Unplayable recording
Hung Interface/ Partial hung interface / Locked up HR20
Dolby Digital off to have on


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> Well, how about 80% then?
> 
> Honestly though, a lot of the things you just mentioned I see posted as problems on MPEG4 locals. Thus all lumped in there.
> 
> And actually a lot of the partial, auto deleted recordings has been traced to a loss of signal during the recording or channel goes dark before the end of the recording for premium sports channels like Sunday Ticket or Center Ice. HR20 is dumb in that it decides to cancel/delete the whole recording.


How does that explain Dexter on my SHO getting a Partial history and missing or the many other partial / missing recordings, are all of us who have had working systems for years just now having a sudden loss of signal?

Just where is your evidence that this problem has been traced to loss of signal.

I have had quite a few of these missing recordings they include SD, HD both MPEG4 and 2. My signal is just fine thank you. Do others find that you often make statements of fact with out understanding the situation or the facts?


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

mcl said:


> When people consistently and repeatedly insist that my problems are due to an interface I never use and a signal problem I never have?
> Yes. Yes it does.
> When those same people consistently and repeatedly dismiss reports of those same problems in areas other than the ones that conveniently fit with the pat and trite "explanations" being offered?
> Yes. Yes it does.
> And as for being civil, I don't believe the level of pig-headedness and willful ignorance exhibited by that lot qualifies as "civilized", so your point it moot.


Easy there MCL. Stop denying the fact that your problem is just a bogum HDMI cable , your machine will work better, and all will be right with the world! 

In all seriousness though, I do agree with you on this particular point. HDMI and MPEG-4 account for, I'd guess, more like 60-65% of the issues experienced. They're obviously big problems. I do think though that there is that other 35-40% which aren't directly attributable to either of those problems, and which, IMHO, it's unfounded to immediately assume are a result of a bad box.

As I've said before, even if you were to accept the argument that signal fade contributes to your problems and go out and replace the cable, it doesn't eliminate the fact that if the signal fades the box takes a crap. That is quite obviously a software issue. I can plug in and un plug my tivo box all day long and it doesn't blow up!

I do see a tendency in these forums to make the assumption that if you're having major problems it must be a bad box, an HDMI issue, or an MPEG4 issue. It could be that in your particular installation, the alignment of the stars coupled with the directionality of your receiver itself are creating a vortex of bad mojo which can only be solved by a software update yet to come...

It's been mentioned more than once on this board that this is a complex piece of equipment and even the littlest glitch can throw everything for a loop. And yet we try to narrow it down to just a few major glitches which cause all of our woes.

I work in a small office with 10 PCs, many of which are built at exactly the same time with exactly the same hardware. And yet they don't all behave the same way all the time, running the same group of applications, and in many instances modifying the same files. The same can be true here. Same equipment, same software, and yet they don't behave the same.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> How does that explain Dexter on my SHO getting a Partial history and missing or the many other partial / missing recordings, are all of us who have had working systems for years just now having a sudden loss of signal?
> 
> Just where is your evidence that this problem has been traced to loss of signal.
> 
> I have had quite a few of these missing recordings they include SD, HD both MPEG4 and 2. My signal is just fine thank you. Do others find that you often make statements of fact with out understanding the situation or the facts?


Sighhhhh. All I do is read the bug thread and you can deduce that many of the problems relate back to MPEG4 locals. Most of the reported problems with recordings are on MPEG4 locals. Sure, there are some people that have other problems on other stations.

The signal loss I'm talking about is the multipage thread about lost Sunday Ticket recordings that also happens on other sports subscriptions. It's very easy to replicate and it has happened to me. Same thing can happen due to signal loss from rain fade or just plain pulling the coax from your box. Sorry you missed that one.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcl said:


> When people consistently and repeatedly insist that my problems are due to an interface I never use and a signal problem I never have?


How many times can I suggest a new receiver? I've had a bad DirecTivo myself and had it replaced. If you don't try then you'll just keep having problems.



> When those same people consistently and repeatedly dismiss reports of those same problems in areas other than the ones that conveniently fit with the pat and trite "explanations" being offered?


Uhhh, nobody is claiming there are no problems with the HR20. There obvisouly are.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> How many times can I suggest a new receiver?
> 
> Uhhh, nobody is claiming there are no problems with the HR20. There obvisouly are.


[/QUOTE]

sound like you are almost ready for a job as a D*CSR, you just need to take that next step and totally deny that there have been any problems at all. :lol:


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

btmoore said:


> sound like you are almost ready for a job as a D*CSR, you just need to take that next step and totally deny that there have been any problems at all. :lol:


:hurah: I just don't get it. If I have a box with problems that I know aren't fixed via a software update I'm asking for a new box. I'll tell you right now that if my HR20 bombs out tomorrow I'm calling up DirecTV up for a replacement ASAP. It is a lease after all.

But if you don't want to do the simple thing and help yourself to a possible good receiver and be done with all your problems, more power to you.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

bonscott87 said:


> How many times can I suggest a new receiver? I've had a bad DirecTivo myself and had it replaced. If you don't try then you'll just keep having problems.


And, last I checked, the supply for replacements was still short, and people that have managed to get a replacement have had one, two, or more replacements that are equally as buggy.

Want to take a wild stab at why? Here's a hint:

IT'S

NOT

A

HARDWARE

PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a software problem. The firmware on the HR20s, as it stands, makes Comcast look like a paragon of software development and quality control process. Replacing the unit WILL NOT HELP. The only thing that will make the problems go away is FIXING THE IDIOTIC, BRAIN-DEAD CODE.

No amount of hardware-swapping will change that fact.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

mcl said:


> It's a software problem.


This is usually the case, but still keep in mind there's some units that are arriving with a bad 2nd tuner or hard drives that get toasted.


----------



## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

PoitNarf said:


> This is usually the case, but still keep in mind there's some units that are arriving with a bad 2nd tuner or hard drives that get toasted.


...the symptoms of which are completely different than those I and many others are experiencing.

Which is why we get so ticked off when people suggest "just get a replacement unit!" It's tantamount to "Just reinstall Windows!" "Just get a new computer!"

They're all equivalent to, "Just turn off your brain and believe that action is a substitute for actual problem-solving!"

Failing or faulty hard drives exhibit specific failure modes. So do faulty tuners.

I (and others) are more than capable of distinguishing between those failure modes and the ones we're experiencing. I daresay a good many of the people complaining here could probably design DVR hardware, and a good portion more are qualified to write DVR software. Yet more are amply qualified to QA the things.

I know for a fact at least a few people posting here with complaints fall into those categories. Myself included.


----------



## Sharkie_Fan (Sep 26, 2006)

I'm not sure poitnarf was specifically suggesting that your problems are a hardware issue. I think his point was that MOST problems reported on the board are as you pointed out software issues, but do not discount the fact that there are reported hardware problems.



mcl said:


> They're all equivalent to, "Just turn off your brain and believe that action is a substitute for actual problem-solving!"


My only comment on this is that while you are correct that action is not a substitute for actual problem-solving, it can be a nice salve for the wounds of a flawed product. It probably won't solve your problems, but (depending upon the symptoms you're experiencing) might provide some relief.

Obviously if you're certain that you don't have a hardware issue, and you're not using HDMI, then action won't get YOU anywhere... But there are those who are connected via HDMI and action MAY get them somewhere in the short term. It's not a *solution*, as you pointed out.


----------



## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

mcl said:


> And, last I checked, the supply for replacements was still short, and people that have managed to get a replacement have had one, two, or more replacements that are equally as buggy.
> 
> Want to take a wild stab at why? Here's a hint:
> 
> ...


Fine. Be stubborn. There have been many posts by people stating they had bad receivers with BSOD's, missed recordings and the like and they get a replacement and they don't have the problems anymore. That's all I'm suggesting. It's not that hard to get a replacement box and try it but obviously you are soooooo unwilling to do that you would rather just rant and rave about your crappy box for weeks on end instead of getting a good box. If a replacement is just as bad you lost nothing except you can say you tried. But if you don't try you'll never get a good box.

I'm done. This forum has just about done it for me.


----------



## jfolliard (Oct 17, 2006)

well - for what it's worth with all this HR20 bashing on this forum, I've had mine for 5+ weeks and not one single problem! Works like a charm! Am I just lucky or are the newer ones "fixed?"


----------



## tstarn (Oct 1, 2006)

jfolliard said:


> well - for what it's worth with all this HR20 bashing on this forum, I've had mine for 5+ weeks and not one single problem! Works like a charm! Am I just lucky or are the newer ones "fixed?"


Good to know. Thanks. You got one of the newer fixed ones, no doubt.


----------



## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

jfolliard said:


> well - for what it's worth with all this HR20 bashing on this forum, I've had mine for 5+ weeks and not one single problem! Works like a charm! Am I just lucky or are the newer ones "fixed?"


No bashing, just tough love 

Yours sounds like it's working better than mine. I've had mine since mid September and I've probably seen about 20+ different problems. Don't go jinxing yourself... :lol:


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

mcl said:


> Which is why we get so ticked off when people suggest "just get a replacement unit!" It's tantamount to "Just reinstall Windows!" "Just get a new computer!"


When all else fails, FORMAT C::lol:


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

mcl said:


> Because if the customers shut up and use the workaround, the company will assume:
> 
> 1) The problem no longer exists, and is therefore unimportant, or
> 2) The customers do not care, and the problem is therefore unimportant.
> ...


Agreed 100%!!!

Start using workarounds and soon DTV won't see it as a problem.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> And actually a lot of the partial, auto deleted recordings has been traced to a loss of signal during the recording or channel goes dark before the end of the recording for premium sports channels like Sunday Ticket or Center Ice. HR20 is dumb in that it decides to cancel/delete the whole recording.


Can you quote a source for this? Who has traced this to a loss of signal?


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Can you quote a source for this? Who has traced this to a loss of signal?


I don't know about the loss of signal, but I do know that the ST thing is true. If the channels goes dark before the recording ends the HR20 assumes there is something wrong and deletes it.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Twosted said:


> All that Bonscott is trying to say is that there are people out there (myself included) that use the HR20 frequently and who's problems are little to none. There has to be some explaination as to why some of us have reliable units while others don't.


So is it due to the fact that you don't have problems that you believe no one else has problems? Or the problems others report are "in their mind"?

To everyone that doesn't have problems with either the HR20 or R15, good for you. But shut up. There are folks that do have problems. Why do you find it so hard to believe that others have problems? This is amazing. What real input are you providing to this problem when all you continue to say is "I don't have problems".


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> So is it due to the fact that you don't have problems that you believe no one else has problems? Or the problems others report are "in their mind"?


Never said that. Keep reading.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Twosted said:


> I don't know about the loss of signal, but I do know that the ST thing is true. If the channels goes dark before the recording ends the HR20 assumes there is something wrong and deletes it.


According to the quote I mentioned above, bonscott seems to have knowledge regarding loss of signal that is indeed causing one problem. According to bonscott those problems were traced to a loss of signal. I'm just wondering what his source of this FACT is. Just curious.


----------



## Twosted (Sep 18, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> According to the quote I mentioned above, bonscott seems to have knowledge regarding loss of signal that is indeed causing one problem. According to bonscott those problems were traced to a loss of signal. I'm just wondering what his source of this FACT is. Just curious.


Yea I don't know. Maybe he is assuming that is what is happening because of what is happening with ST and other sports subscriptions. I myself haven't seen any post about a definitive signal loss issue causing these problems.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Fine. Be stubborn. There have been many posts by people stating they had bad receivers with BSOD's, missed recordings and the like and they get a replacement and they don't have the problems anymore. That's all I'm suggesting. It's not that hard to get a replacement box and try it but obviously you are soooooo unwilling to do that you would rather just rant and rave about your crappy box for weeks on end instead of getting a good box. If a replacement is just as bad you lost nothing except you can say you tried. But if you don't try you'll never get a good box.
> 
> I'm done. This forum has just about done it for me.


Good.


----------



## btmoore (Aug 28, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> According to the quote I mentioned above, bonscott seems to have knowledge regarding loss of signal that is indeed causing one problem. According to bonscott those problems were traced to a loss of signal. I'm just wondering what his source of this FACT is. Just curious.


This is a FACT free zone. :grin: Just a lot of I know because I know.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

One thing to add here. Why are there so many D*Fenders out there that insist there's no REAL problems? If you, yourself have no problems with your R15 or HR20 why can't you simply say "I don't have a problem"? Why must you attack anyone that does have problems and reports them here? If you don't have problems, great. But please stop this crusade attacking those that do have problems and wish to discuss or vent on this forum.


----------



## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

btmoore said:


> This is a FACT free zone. :grin: Just a lot of I know because I know.


YES!!! :uglyhamme


----------

