# Dish Network Satellite Transponders



## LaurenceHolbrook

Hi, brand new to this forum - I read the Dish FAQ and searched for transponder info and couldn't find much pertinent information -

How does the receiver 'know' which transponder is which?

Does each transponder on a given satellite transmit on a unique frequency?

When aligning a receiving dish, which transponder should be selected?

My receiver (ViP211k) seems to auto select transponder 6 - both 110 and 119 usually have a good signal strength on TP6, but 129 typically has nothing or a very low value - changing the transponder to say 21 and 129 typically displays a strong signal -

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The James Long website has tons of detailed information Dish satellites - The 110 Satellite info is here:

http://uplink.jameslong.name/chan110.html

For transponder 6 on 110, there is the following information:

206 110° TP 6 110.0W 12.29690 L SR: 20000 7/8 FEC QPSK DVB-S

Obviously, 110 Satellite, Transponder 6 - 
L (Left Circular Polarity)
SR: 2000 (Symbol Rate)
- 7/8 FEC (Forward Error Correction)
QPSK (Modulation format, Quadrature phase-shift keying) 
DVB-S (Digital Video Broadcasting Satellite, a standard?)

Is 12.29690 the frequency?

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I've got an analog Satellite meter which does not identify the satellite - it just starts beeping when the LNB's are receiving a satellite signal, I'm guessing the more the merrier - if the platform is level, the mast is perpindicular, the skew and altitude are correctly set, in general, if all goes well, it's a short order to rotate the dish to receive a solid signal -

It's when things go wrong, that it can get confusing very quickly - the receiver doesn't respond - a bad connection, it hasn't rescanned for available satellites or perhaps it's receiving the wrong satellite on an LNB -

How does the receiver know which satellite is being received by which LNB? -

Same question for a satellite meter - how does the meter know which satellite is being received on any given LNB?

I tried a friend's Birdog and it had one very nice feature - it identified all 3 satellites - if all three satellites are received, it's impossible to have have an LNB pointed at an incorrect satellite - at that point, if I had problems I started looking elsewhere (the receiver, connections, cable, etc) -

Has anyone used a SatHero SH200? - does it identify the received satellites? It's a $100 cheaper than a refurbished Birdog -

As a last question, after receiving good signals on all three satellites, does anyone try to peak the signal in all three by making small adjustments in skew and elevation?

Any help appreciated -

Thanks,

Larry Holbrook


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## James Long

Welcome!

Along with some satellite TV programs, every DISH transponder transmits "tables" of information about their service. Two of the most important tables are the network information table and the service description table.

The network information table (NIT) is small. It contains definitions of each transponder ... the frequency, orbital location, polarity and other parameters you list above. It also contains a basic list of channels on each transponder. The service description table (SDT) is much larger. It contains definitions of each service or channel. The service information table is how the receiver knows what transponder to tune to to receive a channel.

Say you want to watch the Dish Info channel on channel 101. A working receiver that is already picking up a DISH signal would look in the SDT and discover that the channel is on transponder ID 17 or transponder ID 921. (These are system wide transponder IDs.) Then the receiver looks at the NIT and sees that transponder ID 17 refers to transponder 17 on the satellites at 119 (119.0W 12.45728 R SR: 20000 7/8 FEC QPSK DVB-S) and transponder ID 921 refers to transponder 21 on the satellite at 72 (072.0W 12.51560 R SR: 21500 2/3 FEC 8PSK DVB-S). Your receiver would tune to the orbital location that is on your system (119 or 72) and then the transponder using the specs provided.

There are two steps in the final tuning - one is instructing the switch that feeds the signal from the satellite dish to the receiver to deliver the correct satellite and polarity. In this case the receiver would send a command for 119 "Right" polarity or 72.0 "Right" polarity. The command varies based on what switches/LNBs you have and where 119 or 72 are connected. The final step is finding the channel on the transponder itself. There is another table that is specific to each transponder that gives the final details of what video and audio streams on that transponder make up the channel tuned.

When you initially set up a dish or rescan using the Check Dish command the receiver runs through all of the commands possible for the switches/LNBs that it detects as being connected to your receiver and makes a note of what it found where. So when you come back later and ask for "119 Right" the receiver knows what command to send to get "119 Right" to be switched to the receiver.

The good news is that you do not need to know any of this ... all you need is a DISH receiver authorized for programming and the receiver will take care of the details.


There are dish aiming tools built in to the DISH receivers ... these tools will identify the satellite you have found as well as give a signal strength indication. Or you can use one of the more expensive meters that can also read the streams on the satellite to identify what signals are being received.

The transponder your receiver selects for aiming is the one you are currently watching. If you were watching channel 101 from a western arc dish (119) you'll see transponder 17 when you start the point dish screen. Each satellite location has a "main transponder" that can be used for aiming but I find that it is best to check several or all transponders on each location to get the best aim.


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## LaurenceHolbrook

Excellent reply - I sincerely thank you James for your prompt response - and I think I got the gist of what you have said -

I do apologize for taking so long to reply - with all the information you supplied I was able to do some more researching and have pretty much gained the knowledge and understanding I was looking for - 

Other than avoiding spot beam transponders, what is considered 'aiming' or main transponders apparently is largely a matter of conjecture - 

When aligning a two LNB dish (110, 119), apparently some think that aiming for 110 yields better overall results because the 110 satellite tends to be a bit 'weaker' signal wise - and tweaking becomes a bit complicated - if the 110 is dead on and the 119 signal path is a midge high, a tiny rotation tweak (clockwise from behind the dish) while lowering the signal path to the 119 will also raise the signal path to the 110 and would require a 'matching' reduction in elevation to maintain the same signal path to the 110 - 

With a three LNB dish, presumably aiming for 119 (the center LNB) would be the best approach - which only leaves a minor rotation to perhaps improve the 110 and 129 -

One question remains: How does the receiver (ViP211k) select an LNB? 

Apparently older style receivers (with two LNB dishes) used a voltage to switch from one transponder to another - I couldn't find/figure out how a three LNB receiver selects the LNB - my ViP211k has all three LNB's connected to one coax which connects to the receiver -

Perhaps this question belongs in the receiver forum -

Again, I want to thank for a most useful reply - the best always

Larry


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## TheGrove

James is the expert so I'm sure he will chime in. But I believe on a 3 LNB system there is a switch built into the dish that is used to switch between the LNB's.


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## James Long

I have not looked in to the signalling between the receiver and the dish, although Larry is correct that the most basic control on the oldest LNBs is a change in voltage to select polarity. Selecting between different orbital locations (110 vs 119 vs 129 or 61.5 vs 72.7 vs 77 or a combination with other locations) is now done by a more complicated switch. Most LNBs have a switch built in to the package. Or external switches can be used.

As long as my receiver knows how to change the orbital location and polarity I am happy. 

I try to aim for best signal from all the orbital locations I care about. Sometimes one must sacrifice one location to get another stronger.


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## P Smith

Latest DP or DPP ext/int switches controlling by regular DiSEq cmds if you want select a port. Legacy switches has proprietary cmds, see Kevin Cimmerman discovery.


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## scooper

As for the nuts and bolts on aiming a Dish - I would choose transponders that are "CONUS" , and look for the weakest one. When aiming, you would then maximize the signal strength. The one hitch with aiming a dish is that it takes small movements to make a go/go-go on recieiving.

When aiming a multi LNB dish - James had it right that sometimes you sacrifice a little signal on one slot to get a little better on the other. The only way to do a "no-compromise" system is to use individual dishes / LNBs and external switches for each slot that you need to recieve. This is possible today, but most people don't want 2-3 or more dishes on their house  .

There are some locations (notably in Alaska) where they not only use individual dishes, but they are "oversized" compared to what the lower 48 would use for a dish. Aiming these monsters is probably an exercise in patience.


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## P Smith

> Aiming these monsters is probably an exercise in patience


nope, not harder then one LNBF 18-24" dish


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## RBA

P Smith said:


> nope, not harder then one LNBF 18-24" dish


I think scooper was referring to 4-6' dishes. Larger dishes have a narrower field of view so adjustment is a little harder.


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## P Smith

RBA said:


> I think scooper was referring to 4-6' dishes. Larger dishes have a narrower field of view so adjustment is a little harder.


I don't know what he has been referencing, but we are talking about 3-4' dishes max; yes, the diagram is narrower then for 18-24" dishes, but not that far to compare with 4-6' reflectors
lets be reasonable, after all ...


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## James Long

scooper said:


> There are some locations (notably in Alaska) where they not only use individual dishes, but they are "oversized" compared to what the lower 48 would use for a dish. Aiming these monsters is probably an exercise in patience.





P Smith said:


> nope, not harder then one LNBF 18-24" dish


One of the benefits of 9 degree DBS spacing is the aim does not have to be as accurate. On a single small DBS dish aiming at 4 degrees or more of sky is not a problem. Small DBS dishes were designed for the inaccurate aim.

If one is using normal Ku dishes designed for 2 degree spaced satellites (the single LNB dishes scooper is referring to) the aim has to be more accurate. "Larger" is relative when one is moving from 18" DBS dishes to a 36" dish one is talking twice the diameter and a much tighter aim.

For someone trying to get the best signal possible they would probably put the same effort in to precisely aiming an 18" DBS dish as they do a larger Ku dish. Perfectionists! But the tight aim required on a 2 degree dish is not required on a standard DBS dish originally designed for 9 degree spacing.


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## James Long

Getting away from Alaska ... the multiple LNB dishes that DISH uses in the lower 48 have their own issues. Eastern Arc has a satellite at 77 degrees to contend with. Which means accurately aiming an Eastern Arc dish to pick up all three locations or at least aim well enough that 77 does not interfere with reception of 72.7.

Miami Florida:
61.5°
Elevation: 53.4°
Azimuth (true): 142.1°
72.7°
Elevation: 58.7°
Azimuth (true): 163.2°
77°
Elevation: 59.7°
Azimuth (true): 172.7°

61.5 to 72.7 is 21.1° azimuth difference
72.7 to 77 is 9.5° azimuth difference
61.5 to 77 is 30.6° azimuth difference

Rochester New York:
61.5°
Elevation: 37.6°
Azimuth (true): 157.1°
72.7°
Elevation: 40.0°
Azimuth (true): 172.9°
77°
Elevation: 40.2°
Azimuth (true): 179.1°

61.5 to 72.7 is 15.8° azimuth difference
72.7 to 77 is 6.2° azimuth difference
61.5 to 77 is 22.0° azimuth difference

The same physical dish has to work in Rochester and Miami ... without any adjustments other than where the dish is pointed. What one ends up with is a dish that is designed for inaccurate aiming. Picking up satellites that may (from the ground perspective) may be 21° apart or 15° apart while picking up a third satellite that may be 9° or 6° further west. All without being able to adjust the position of the LNB on the dish, or LNB spacing.


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## P Smith

as soon you split triple LNBF dish (multifeed dish) to three separate dishes, it wouldn't be big problem to aim each one, be it 24" or 36"...48"


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## James Long

P Smith said:


> as soon you split triple LNBF dish (multifeed dish) to three separate dishes, it wouldn't be big problem to aim each one, be it 24" or 36"...48"


It is still easier to aim a single LNB DBS dish than a 2 degree Ku dish.


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## P Smith

you mean aiming to DBS sat vs FSS sat ? guess so

so, to anyone who are going to install three bigger dishes for W/E Arcs to reduce rain fade, do not worry how to aim them - it's easy !


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## scooper

RBA said:


> I think scooper was referring to 4-6' dishes. Larger dishes have a narrower field of view so adjustment is a little harder.


Precisely - Although they may use dishes even bigger than 6 feet. Having never been there, that is only conjecture on my part.


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## P Smith

Nope, the dishes are 1.2m - discussed here a few times...


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## James Long

P Smith said:


> Nope, the dishes are 1.2m - discussed here a few times...


The standard dish is ... but the "anything to get a signal" dish may vary.


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## scooper

Yeah I remember some long ago threads where some alaskans were showing us pictures of their 10 foot dishes - of course - they were not close to Anchorage or Fairbanks either.


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## LaurenceHolbrook

Whoa guys, I am an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac, OCD, anal-retentive, perfectionist, procrasinating mechanical engineer - I live alone, so I drive no one crazy but myself - My two Minature Schnauzers who don't care how goofy I am as long as I remember to feed and unfeed them let me live with them in their 30 foot dog kennel on wheels with a garage for my motorcycle, not 30 foot satellite antennas to curb rain fade - one of the reasons I live on wheels is if the kids find me, I can move - I guess I can add that if rain fade is intolerable (or any other situation for that matter), I can move - 

I threw away my spherical trig slide rule when I stopped teaching celestial navigation in the 80's - actually a lie, I never throw anything away - 

My questioning is more an attempt to be an intelligent user of standard Dish Network equipment than an expert on the details of DBS transmission - as a full time RVer, I am constantly setting up and tearing down the antenna - I'm trying to understand the tricks of the trade that will minimize problems and expedite setup of a satellite antenna - 

I had a dish soloDVR 512 with a 24X21, 2 LNB antenna (110 & 119) - Occasionally there were problems - 

1) It was difficult to tell if adjustments were improving/degrading reception because of the distance between the receiver and the antenna - occasionally I was real lucky and set the antenna next to a window on the camper - 

2) Receiver response time is aggravatingly slow - 

3) Receiver would 'hang' and not identify satellites - 

4) Assorted bad connections, cables and the like -

I bought a small portable, pocket sized TV which I could take to the antenna - I never used it - stringing another 30-50 feet of coax from he receiver to the antenna seemed like such a PITA - 

I bought an el cheapo analog satellite meter - at least I got 'instant' feedback if adjustments were aiding or hindering signal strength - this was no help in the case of wrongly ideintified satellite -

While I leveled my tripod table, I didn't verify that the mast was perpindicular - I think my mast had a 'forward' tilt and I kept picking up the 119 satellite on the 110 LNB - out came the spherical trig to calculate the adjustment in azimuth (which lacking any scale was merely guess work) and declination - 

I recently upgraded to Dish Pro Plus with a 24X21 Dish HD 3LNB antenna (110, 119, 129) and a ViP211k receiver - I also have a Tailgater - 

Nothing could be simpler with the Tailgater - use Dish Pointer AR on my iPhone to verify clear sky, set the Tailgater down, reboot and go - it is fair to say, that it can take a long time for the receiver to complete all it's checks, download the program guide and so on - 

The Tailgater has a mere 10 inch dish and I worry about rain fade - also the Tailgater has moving parts and I worry about them wearing out - and what if it just plain doesn't work? - I guess I should have included worrywart in my earlier unsolicited, self-appraisal -

In as much as it was free, I kept the Dish HD antenna, just in case - 

This last time (the first time I set it up on my own), I leveled the tripod table, perpindicularized (such a word?) the mast, set the elevation, skew, set the antenna on the mast, hooked up my analog meter, swung the dish to the east and the analog meter started singing like a bird - wiggled it back and forth for a minute to increase the squeal - and quit -

I had a friend's Birdog which I put on the line and it reported solid signals on all three satellites - there can be no doubt the antenna is very nicely aimed and in a matter of a couple minutes -

I can't remember all the details, but it was a disaster back at the receiver - I wasn't getting anything - tried unplugging/plugging in the receiver - I still don't think I got anything - it might have been that the receiver thought that the Tailgater was still plugged in - I can't be certain - not sure what I did next - I think disconnected/connected the antenna, not sure if receiver was on/off - somewhere along the line, the receiver went to "Checking for available satellites" - wherever, however that happened, things started to improve dramatically - there may have been a loose connection in the mix as well - 

A couple notes, the Birdog convinced me that I needn't bother fiddling with antenna - if I had only the analog meter, I would've assumed somehow I was on the wrong satellite and prolly spent hours antenna adjusting - 

I need to figure out how to make the receiver initiate 'Checking for available satellites' rather than 'Acquiring Satellite Signal' -

In as much as I borrowed the Birdog and living on a fixed income, I was looking to try and decide if there was a less expensive satellite finder meter which includes identification - 

My favorite was the EZ-SAT Satellite Meter $75 - The EZ-SAT is ideal for single LNB installations and is NOT suitable for multi LNB assemblies such as Dish Network 1000 - 

The Birdog wil do the trick, but it's $218.99 refurbished on Amazon - and all that extra stuff confuses me -

I also considered First Strike FS1 Digital Satellite Meter $158, which had decent ratings

I passed on Satlink WS-6933 DVB-S2 FTA C&KU Band Digital Satellite Finder Meter $89.99 and the SatLink WS-6908 LCD DVB-S FTA Professional Digital Satellite Finder Meter $104.92 - the ratings weren't all that good - 

I finally flipped a coin and bought a SATHERO SH200 Pocket Satellite Finder Meter DVB-S, DVB-S2, MPEG-4, CBS2 MPEG-4, ABS $123.10 - I maybe sorry, but I'm hopeful that it is simple and will give me the positive feedback that the antenna is aimed at the correct satellites with a good signal strength - I can then focus my efforts at getting the receiver to cooperate -

Jim, your comments "The good news is that you do not need to know any of this ... all you need is a DISH receiver authorized for programming and the receiver will take care of the details." and "As long as my receiver knows how to change the orbital location and polarity I am happy" didn't go unheeded - I am happy to let the receiver do the work, and I appreciate it's powerful tools when it does work - but the slow response and it's stubborn reset streak can confuse me -

In summary, I have a SatHero 200 coming to aid in satellite identification and signal strength at the antenna - I'll let all y'all know how it works out - 

If I can figure out how to force my receiver to reboot with "Checking for Available Satellites", I'll post a follow up - 

I figured out a great way to securely mount the 'Tailgater' - I'll take some pics and post details on a new thread - 

Lastly as an FYI, I also used to have and use a Hughesnet internet, which is a 'two way' satellite communication system - besides setup, limited bandwidth and high cost were detractors - I currently used cell phone networks, cheap enough if I can stay under 4GB's and virtually no setup, although reception can be terrible from time to time - 

Thanks all, y'all for the help - I really do appreciate it - you have significantly increased my understanding of DBS -

Larry


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## P Smith

If you don't set anything specific in settings of the receiver, you could reset it by choose Default and proceed to check switch after your SH200 confirmed your dish aimed to all three or two sats.


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