# HR2x/R22 0x368: Is your Hard Drive loud?



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

This poll is an effort to quantify an issue that has been mentioned a number of times recently in this thread ..

If you have 0x368 (or higher) what do you think?


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## shedberg (Jan 20, 2007)

I voted no because it isn't for the most part. I might hear it a couple of times a day. I was much louder on the last release.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

While I voted no I'd qualify it by saying my HR20-700 sounds like a washing machine (the one that was replaced by a HR23 also was loud) but has always been that way, my HR21/22/23's are quiet, the HR22-100 is in our bedroom and all I hear is the fan on it.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

I have four HD DVRs and all of them are still virtually silent. Based on posts here and at the DirecTV support forum, I think that the vast majority of these overly loud hard drives are on the verge of failing. The newer diagnostic routines run in the background and are working overtime to attempt to troubleshoot & repair the drive, making lots of noise in the process. Folks that have replaced their DVRs have generally not had the problem again, even with the same model and software version, so I really doubt it's a systemic software bug.


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## jazzyjez (Jan 2, 2006)

I voted "loud" in the context that it's now noticeable, but wasn't prior to the recent update(s).
I have 3 HR series units... they are approx 1, 2 and 3 years old. It therefore seems to be too much of a coincidence that I never used to hear the drives (or it was extremely rare) before the recent software changes, but now it's quite apparent. Even to the point of becoming distracting if I have the audio volume low (i.e. late at night).

Added: note that I find 0x368 better (quieter/less disk activity) than its predecessor (0x345 I think) but it's still very much worse than anything before that.

Added 2: is it of any relevance that I keep my drives pretty much empty? We'll typically have only a few shows/movies recorded, then we'll watch some/most of them and will likely be back up in the 80-90% free.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

I am with Litzdog911 on this, my HR's are virtually silent also. I have never heard the one in my bedroom.


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## mikeinthekeys (Feb 10, 2007)

The last time I had a unit that I would describe as "loud" it failed and had to be replaced. Both of my HR20-700s seem to me to be very quiet.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Mine have been and continue to be near silent. The only reason I've noticed them more is because of threads reporting noise and polls such as this.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I have very sensitive hearing and yes, I can hear it from the other side of the room but it's not so loud that it's an issue.


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## LameLefty (Sep 29, 2006)

Nope, and they never have been. Even three-plus years ago when people were complaining about how loud the HR20's were, mine was never noisy. Now, it IS ever-so-slightly out of square so that when it sits on a level surface there's a tiny bit of wobble; if it's sitting JUST right, it'll make a buzz. I fixed that with a small square of notebook paper folded over and placed right under the foot. Now it's as silent as my other three HR2x's.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Loud? No...
Audible? Yes...but better than the DP release.


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## JACKIEGAGA (Dec 11, 2006)

Yes only on my HR21-100


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I have two in a cabinet so obviously I can't hear them but my HR20-700 is in the open and I can't say as I've ever hear the hard drive.

I'm sure if I sat quietly I could probably hear the drives which might be a problem if it were in my bedroom. I would figure out a way to insulate the sound though. It has to be possible? :grin:

Mike


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## bb37 (Dec 27, 2007)

I have an HR21-700 that's almost two years old and an R22 that's only about two months old. The HR21 has been noisy--I wouldn't call it loud--from Day One, though it does seem to do less thrashing with the latest NR. On the other hand, the R22 is noticeably quieter.


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

Wouldn't say loud, but it is noticable. Worst culprit is my eldest HR20-700, a tad over 3 years old now. Drive grinds randomly for short bursts. This issue did not start with x368, it started early summer.


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## mridan (Nov 15, 2006)

Both of my HR20-700's were quiet and never made any noise untill the last two software updates.0x368 is quieter but still annoying.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

The drives on our HR20-700s are not particularly loud, per se. They are "typical" disk drives, and in normal operation I don't hear them. Noise was never as issue for the first 3 years or so that we owned these DVRs.

However, the drives are definitely being worked harder by recent software releases. They go through periodic bursts of intense activity that are definitely audible from 10-15 feet away. It's incredibly annoying to hear the drive thrashing away during a quiet portion of a drama.

I should note that 368 has definitely reduced the disk thrashing episodes compared to the previous national release, but hasn't eliminated them.

(I would think that those with different DVR models wouldn't be nearly as likely to hear the noise, as they don't have the vented top panel directly above the drive).


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Quiet as a Mouse!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

Not louder just a lot more activity since that cursed update along with the increased audio/video issues.
John


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

mridan said:


> Both of my HR20-700's were quiet and never made any noise untill the last two software updates.0x368 is quieter but still annoying.


+1. The last two updates made my drive much louder than it had been over the previous years of ownership. Also, it introduced recording glitches during the drive 'thrashings' that I never had before.


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## UTVLamented (Oct 18, 2006)

I voted yes. On the occasions it gets loud that is when I see/hear the video/audio stutter.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

I voted no. Any device with a hard drive will make such noises. I realize that. It's audible of course, but not intrusive. It's an issue for some, but not for me.

I don't really care about the noise. I care about the larger issue of video freezes/audio dropouts that result from it. The disc noise is only the smoking gun. The tasks that are causing the noise have to be managed so they never interfere with playback/recording, period. The poll should be do you have video freezing/audio dropouts. I even have freezes now during 30sec slip. That's never happened until recently.


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

I don't like the previous thread being locked and hijacked. Seriously.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

nikwax said:


> I don't like the previous thread being locked and hijacked. Seriously.


There wasn't much left to say in it. It was like a merry-go-round.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

nikwax said:


> I don't like the previous thread being locked and hijacked. Seriously.


Post your comments here ..


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> There wasn't much left to say in it. It was like a merry-go-round.


so what would the purpose of this thread be then?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

nikwax said:


> so what would the purpose of this thread be then?


I'm going to guess here, but maybe to have a Poll to measure the problem of dbstalk users. :whatdidid


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Post your comments here ..


OK, my comments: the drive noise is one issue, and the video/audio impact of what is going on with the drive is either another issue or the same issue, depending on one' point of view. Some posters don't care about the noise but do care about the video stuttering, for example.

Clearly there is some heat from owners who are experiencing this and feel that DTV is not acknowledging the problem. Evidence seems to indicate that the noise (actuator arm thrashing) and the video/audio stuttering were introduced in the firmware release two versions back.

My concern, Doug, is that you have indicated clearly that you do not feel that this is a legitimate issue. Having done so, you closed the discussion thread and opened a new one that is slightly off topic or could veer off topic.

As I raised this issue on the official DTV forum and got "they all do that" as a reply, you'll have have to forgive me for being a bit concerned about the response to this. For many of us, it is a real issue, and simply because someone else has not experienced this doesn't mean we should just belt up.

Bottom line is, it is a real issue for many of us.


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## armophob (Nov 13, 2006)

Kind of a trick question. My HR20-700's have always been loud. Coffee grinding in the room loud, every now and then. But any more so with the new release? Hard to tell, I keep them both muffled with targus chill mats.


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## Argee (Oct 16, 2006)

I too have had this pop up as of a couple of updates ago on my H20-700. My H20-100 is fine, no change what so ever but the 700 will freeze and glitch if I am watching a recording and the machine goes into this disk diagnosis of whatever it is doing.

The bottom line is something in the updates caused this problem to some of the machines. It was not a burst of gama rays from Epsilon Beta but a burst of an update from DirecTV which does not agree with some of the H20-700's.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

nikwax said:


> Bottom line is, it is a real issue for many of us.


Here, here! Well said.


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## zuf (May 25, 2007)

I voted yes as I am hearing the hard drive on my DVRs a lot more than I used to. To be fair, I recently upgraded to HD, so I'm comparing my new-to-me HR21-700s with the R15-500s that they replaced. But, the R22-100 that I've had for awhile now has also gotten much louder than it used to be.

In the previous thread, I saw references to the noise being disk chatter due to increased disk activity. That's a good description for what I'm hearing as well. Clearly the hard drives are much busier than they used to be. Like others, I find it distracting during quiet parts of a show (or when the TV isn't even on for that matter).


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

I voted loud. Prior to the last two updates I had one instance of the driving making enough noise to interfere with hearing soft dialogue on a TV show and that was caused by the fan of the external hard drive enclosure. Since two updates ago the interference happens daily and for longer stretches of time than it is quiet. This most recent upgrade has brought the frequency down a bit, maybe about half the time, but that is far too much to be acceptable to me.

<rant on>For those that claim its not the updates that caused it, then how do you explain so many of us that have had these issues only after the update? Unless your the one that wrote the code, you have no leg to stand on in your argument so please stop telling me otherwise. <rant off>


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## RF_Eng (Jan 31, 2007)

Loud enough that I have to unplug the Bedroom HR20 at night else it wakes me up around 5 AM


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## CliffV (Jan 24, 2006)

I voted NO, but my 3 HR2x's are in a cabinet behind glass doors.


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## SWORDFISH (Apr 16, 2007)

Voted no. External drive in an enclosed (and vented) cabinet, never hear it at all.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Voted no. Ten HRs and I don't have that problem on any of them. Used to have it on TiVos constantly.

Rich


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## barryb (Aug 27, 2007)

I have 6 units and have never heard any of them. 

I have been following all the "loud DVR" forums here, and making a solid attempt at hearing any of my DVRs with no luck. I do hear my XBox 360, so I know it's not my hearing.


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

Not a problem for me. At times they're audible, not always. Both of my units (HR20-700) have made sounds as if the hard-drive needed to be defragged.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Could people that have DVRs in a cabinet please not vote? Obviously those DVRs aren't going to make a lot of noise. I don't think that's the intention of the poll.

If you want to vote, then open the cabinet door for a few days and see if you notice any noise.


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## nitsudima (Feb 5, 2009)

I've had my two HR23s for a couple of months now and have been pleased with their relative silence compared to the HR10-250 and HDVR2 they replaced. Fan noise is significantly less with the HR23s than with the DTiVos, and while I would occasionally hear the DTiVo hard drives (esp the HDVR2 and the R10 I still have running) during quiet scenes, I've never heard anything from the HR23s.

This may be considered off-topic (if so feel free to ignore), but can we replace the HDDs in our D* DVRs the way we could with our older DTiVo boxes? I replaced two out of my three drives when they failed in my DTiVos, and that added years to their lifespans.

I'm guessing if the loud HR2x hard drives are signs of failing drives (it certainly sounds like that could be the case in some of these instances), popping new hardware in there would be an easy way to find out for sure. I'm guessing D* won't want to replace anything until it's good and dead, so it would be nice if we could do this ourselves.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Could people that have DVRs in a cabinet please not vote? Obviously those DVRs aren't going to make a lot of noise. I don't think that's the intention of the poll.
> 
> If you want to vote, then open the cabinet door for a few days and see if you notice any noise.


It's not about whether you hear any noise or not, it's about whether you would call it "loud" or not. Everyone can vote freely based on their environment. All four of mine are in the open, including one in a bedroom. I would not use the term "loud" for any of them, but I can hear the bedroom fan and drive at times. I hear the one in the study more because it's literally 3 feet from my ears. I still wouldn't call it loud.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

My old HDVR2 was fairly loud (I don't know if it was the drive or the fan) but the sound I am getting on the HR20-700 sounds more like a rattle which comes and goes, not like a typical hard drive sound (and has been there for a few weeks but seems worse today). I did a reboot and it didn't stop during the time the DVR was "off" during that process. I pulled the power plug and the noise didn't start again until about 5 minutes after the DVR came back up.

Edit: I think the noise I heard really was a rattle. I moved the equipment in the entertainment center around a bit and right now all is quiet unless I place my ear very close to the HR20, in which case I hear a more normal combination of hard drive and fan sounds. If it stays like this, I would change my vote if that were possible.


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## TimGoodwin (Jun 29, 2004)

I have three HR20 700's and all of them are loud. The worst one is in the bedroom of course.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobnielsen said:


> My old HDVR2 was fairly loud but the sound I am getting on the HR20-700 sounds more like a rattle which comes and goes, not like a typical hard drive sound (and has been there for a few weeks but seems worse today). I did a reboot and it didn't stop during the time the DVR was "off" during that process. I pulled the power plug and the noise didn't start again until about 5 minutes after the DVR came back up.


I have three owned 20-700s. The last one I got was noisy as hell and I decided to take it apart and see what the problem was. First thing I noticed after unhooking the wires and picking it up was something rolling around inside. Found that one of the phillips head screws that are used to hold the HDD onto the bracket had fallen out and the other two screws were about to fall out too. Put the drive from an Antec into it and tightened all the screws up and it's now silent. Made in Mexico. Thanx for NAFTA again, Bubba.

Rich


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

HR20-700. In the bedroom. It wakes me up at night. I ran a hard drive diagnostic yesterday (SMART?), and it failed. I'm going to call and request a replacement.

I have a 2nd HR20-700 with an external drive and an HR22-100, but don't have issues with those. But they are in 'louder' environments, so maybe I just don't notice them.


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## mridan (Nov 15, 2006)

mridan said:


> Both of my HR20-700's were quiet and never made any noise untill the last two software updates.0x368 is quieter but still annoying.


Just wanted to add that I have an HR23-700 in my workout room,and it is completely silent.It is not in an encloser (as are both of my HR20-700's),I have sat on the floor next to it a couple of times to check for noise and nothing.No hard drive noise clicking,etc...


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

RF_Eng said:


> Loud enough that I have to unplug the Bedroom HR20 at night else it wakes me up around 5 AM


4:50am CDT today on my bedroom DVR. 10 straight minutes of grinding.


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## Tuquala (Jan 10, 2007)

Wish I could vote yes and no!! My original, still working HR21-700 has never made any noise that I am aware of, and the update hasn't introduced any change.

Recently replaced an R10 in the bedroom with an HR20-700 bought from e-Pray. During the setup and authorization it received 0368. This machine had some problem that the techs could not overcome and could not be authorized, and the parental lock could not be unlocked. Until I received the new HR22-100 to replace it, it was somewhat noisy and esp noticeable at night. Since I never had any use time with it I really don't know if it was noisy on receipt, although I don't remember it making any extra noise before it started downloading the update.

The HR22 has been totally quiet before and after the update.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

There is definitely more disk activity .. I do not see that changing, though.


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## INSIDERINFO (Nov 3, 2009)

no sounds or noise in my dvrs


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

My HR20-700 is loud to the point that it seriously interferes with my ability to enjoy watching movies/games/etc. (and I like to listen to movies loud) It is not just an increase in activity, it is much louder. On a daily basis, I wish I could just unplug the DVR to get rid of the noise. I am sometimes leaving the room to go read instead of putting up with the noise of the DVR. It is that bad. Our non HR20-700 receivers do not have this, so I assume it is limited to the HR20-700.

I also do not understand why the previous discussion was closed.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Increased disk activity does not need to mean increased noise level, if its loud enough to be that distracting, then the drive is probably going south. Seeking noise shouldnt be that loud, if you are hearing the drive whine a little that drive has bearings that are probably going bad.


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

There's no whine, it's a thrashing noise.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

nikwax said:


> OK, my comments: the drive noise is one issue, and the video/audio impact of what is going on with the drive is either another issue or the same issue, depending on one' point of view. Some posters don't care about the noise but do care about the video stuttering, for example.
> 
> Clearly there is some heat from owners who are experiencing this and feel that DTV is not acknowledging the problem. Evidence seems to indicate that the noise (actuator arm thrashing) and the video/audio stuttering were introduced in the firmware release two versions back.
> 
> ...


I voted Yes and completely agree with the above post. The noise is one issue, but the other issue (a bigger issue for me, perhaps not for everyone) is the associated hiccups observed on playback of recordings. In my view it would be more useful to have a poll about that, than about perceived loudness of hard disk drives.


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## tanasi (Nov 21, 2005)

no audible racket from my two HR23s or my HR20-100.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

nikwax said:


> ....
> My concern, Doug, is that you have indicated clearly that you do not feel that this is a legitimate issue. Having done so, you closed the discussion thread and opened a new one that is slightly off topic or could veer off topic.
> 
> As I raised this issue on the official DTV forum and got "they all do that" as a reply, you'll have have to forgive me for being a bit concerned about the response to this. For many of us, it is a real issue, and simply because someone else has not experienced this doesn't mean we should just belt up.
> ...


Here is how Doug closed that thread--very clearly indicating that he opened both a new thread _and _a poll.


Doug Brott said:


> I've opened a poll .. Let's continue discussion in the following thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=168109


When a moderator takes this level of active participation, that clearly indicates interest and legitimizes that others are having a problem. I would think that is a very good thing for you. The problem is highlighted, definitely not pushed aside.

Cheers,
Tom


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> There is definitely more disk activity .. I do not see that changing, though.


If that's the case, I will sadly most likely have to retire my workhorse HR20's...because mine are loud enough to be intrusive and reduce my enjoyment in using them.

Speaking only for myself (and my wife), of course...but any functionality/performance improvements resulting from the increased disk activity aren't worth the chattering drives that can be clearly heard from anywhere in the rooms the DVRs live in.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

Well, my issue is:

If it is a problem with a subset (or most) of HR20-700 receivers (which I really don't know for sure) and it isn't going to go away, how to I get DirecTV to replace my receiver with a different model (since you can't specify a different model when the receiver is swapped out)?

If I call DirecTV and complain about the loudness of my receiver, does that quality for an exchange? If so, how to I make sure I don't get another HR20-700 that exhibits the same problem?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

One thing I experienced a while back with my HR20-700 was that suddenly, it was "bussing' quite loud.

After careful examination, I came to realize that it was the metal-on-metal vibration of the unit and another component touching, and with the HR20 hard drive spinning and being used normally, the vibrations caused the "buzz".

When I repositioned the HR20 slightly, so that the vibration no longer could be transfered to anything else (via direct contact), the "bussing" disappeared.

It's been quite quiet now for many months since then.


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## andunn27 (Sep 24, 2007)

I have terrible hard drive noise coming from my DVR and it started after the last 2 updates. Super quiet up until then


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## KoRn (Oct 21, 2008)

Voted yes. You cannot hear it when watching tv and what not. But when it is dead silent. It is grinding away even when off. It was never like this before until these last couple major updates. So some thing has changed to cause the issue.


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## andy A (Sep 14, 2006)

Voted yes. HR20-700, started 2 updates ago with 034C and continues with 368 although not as often. Is not a continuous loudness but a sporadic loud thrashing. If I am watching a recording and the HD starts the thrashing it will sometimes cause the playback (audio & video) to stutter. I have had this HR for approx 3+ yrs.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Then I guess I have 3 HR20 hard drives that are all going bad at the same time. 

The increased disk "thrashing" will be more obvious to some than to others depending on where their receiver is located, their hearing sensitivity and what their "annoyance level" may be. I can assure you it has increased markedly since recent software updates.

As you can see by the receiver location in the picture WHY I might be able to notice it more then some others who have the receiver in location when the noise would be "damped." And yes, the noise is the same with or without the CD cases on top of the box.  I have had one HR20 or another there for years which would make it quite easy to notice a change in day to day sounds. The noise in question is "head thrashing" and not noises you might expect from a dying hard drive like ball bearing or motor sound. It used to be virtually silent, and that has been for years.

EDIT: With the most recent update (CE) it has improved somewhat but when the last NR came out it was horrible. NOW (CE) the activity is more spread apart (hours between incidences) but just as "frantic." When I had the last (current) N/R the bursts of loud activity came much more often and before this all started the box was virtually silent with regard to head "thrashing."

EDIT EDIT: This HR20-100 rarely is doing any recording and never has any programs stored on it for more then a couple hours. It's just an "in case of a conflict box" that serves a small TV in the kitchen via a 25' composite cable and my monitor with a 2' component cable.

Oh, the artwork behind the monitor is the work of my grandkids. :lol:












CCarncross said:


> Increased disk activity does not need to mean increased noise level, if its loud enough to be that distracting, then the drive is probably going south. Seeking noise shouldnt be that loud, if you are hearing the drive whine a little that drive has bearings that are probably going bad.


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## lflorack (Dec 16, 2006)

More active? Yes, absolutely. There is definitely more disk activity -- i.e., head movement/thrashing.
Is this increased activity loud enough to be considered load or distracting? No. I can hear it, but it's not loud.

HR20-700 -- Installed 04/16/07
HR20-100 -- Installed 10/13/07


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

The only noise I hear is a 1/2 second "whine" before it freezes up. HR21-700


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

I have one HR20-700 (my original from 10/06) in the MBR. Drive chatters all night. This just started happening within the last month. Starting to get annoying. This is my only unit (1 of 4) still using the stock drive and the one I notice the most.

Looking at swapping it with my H21 in my office or seeing if an external drive will be quieter.


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## VaJim (Jul 27, 2006)

I have 2 HR-21-700. One of them sounds like a power generator at times. Hummmmmmmm.:eek2:


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## Hutchinshouse (Sep 28, 2006)

Ok, this morning the HR20-700 in my bedroom was loud. Sounded like a little jackhammer.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Listen Guys, this is a New Directv Service intended to Stress your Hard Drive to see if it is Marginal so it can be replaced. And the Best part is that this is a Free Service. You didn't even have to apply for it!!! LOL!!! :lol:


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## the_batman (Sep 20, 2007)

Mine often sounds like a "coffee percolator",for those that remember those days.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

richierich said:


> Listen Guys, this is a New Directv Service intended to Stress your Hard Drive to see if it is Marginal so it can be replaced. And the Best part is that this is a Free Service. You didn't even have to apply for it!!! LOL!!! :lol:


Regardless of the sarcasm here, I will say that having drive activity is better than virtually no activity in terms of drive reliability. So there is a valid reason to exercise (or "stress") the drive at times.

That being said, the point I just stated is a side-effect, not a reason.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

THAT sounds like a bad hard-drive. Did you run the diag test? Do a reset and when you see "checking hardware" message on the screen hit SELECT button for the diag menu.



hunter65 said:


> The only noise I hear is a 1/2 second "whine" before it freezes up. HR21-700


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

There is constant drive activity when recording or buffering so I don't think lack of this periodic "frenetic drive thrashing" which hasn't existed since the dawn of the HR20 is there to increase the drive's reliability.

Bottom line is that if that is the way it has to be to process more information to give us more features, so be it. It has been brought up because it is something new and out of the ordinary that people are hearing and reporting. Those who pass it off by saying that "it's a failing hard drive" or that it "doesn't exist" are not helping matters either.

The question in the poll "Is your hard drive loud" really isn't the right question because "loud" is relative and has many factors that could mask it. Maybe it should have been something like "Are you hearing much more noticeable drive activity then you have in the past."



Doug Brott said:


> Regardless of the sarcasm here, I will say that having drive activity is better than virtually no activity in terms of drive reliability. So there is a valid reason to exercise (or "stress") the drive at times.
> 
> That being said, the point I just stated is a side-effect, not a reason.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Everyone can vote freely based on their environment.


OK -- I meant to say "loud" and not just "noise".  But these results are skewed if people say "I don't think it's loud but I have it in an cabinet all the time. So I voted no." Plus, the sudden increase in activity doesn't happen all the time. So opening the door for five seconds and listening to it isn't going to tell you anything. The problem is that it's quiet and suddenly starts making a lot of noise, and even disrupts the audio/video. It's distracting.

I'm trying to see if the manufacturers are using different model hard drives for the same exact model of DVR. I would bet that the manufacturers have part shortages or obsolescence issues, and they are using two or three different model hard drives for the same exact model number of DVR. Some hard drives are louder than others. That plus a software release that now exercises the drive could account for the sudden increase in noise in only some of the DVRs.

I doubt they're performing hard drive scans during normal operation. That would slow things down too much. Besides, the only scan that would make that much noise is the butterfly scan, and there's NO WAY anyone would be foolish enough to run that test during normal operation.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Regardless of the sarcasm here, I will say that having drive activity is better than virtually no activity in terms of drive reliability. So there is a valid reason to exercise (or "stress") the drive at times.


Nope, that's wrong. You're thinking about leaving the hard drive on a shelf for years where things might seize up. That's won't happen on a modern hard drive unless it's already defective before it goes on the shelf.

The DVR is the worse-case scenario for reliability because the drive is in constant use and inadequately ventilated. It's already in use 24x7. There's no need to further exercise it to maintain reliability.

Having said that, hard drives are supposed to tolerate this increased level of activity without any problems. So no one should be worried that this new activity will cause their DVRs to die. It would accelerate an already occurring death, though.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Absolutely right on. I've also tried a totally different drive in my owned box and it does the same thing but on that drive "normal" operation IS a slight bit louder but the "sudden" activity we are referring to is the same. Sounds like 50 squirrels with big heavy feet running around in the attic. 



bobcamp1 said:


> OK -- I meant to say "loud" and not just "noise".  But these results are skewed if people say "I don't think it's loud but I have it in an cabinet all the time. So I voted no." Plus, the sudden increase in activity doesn't happen all the time. So opening the door for five seconds and listening to it isn't going to tell you anything. The problem is that it's quiet and suddenly starts making a lot of noise, and even disrupts the audio/video. It's distracting.
> 
> I'm trying to see if the manufacturers are using different model hard drives for the same exact model of DVR. I would bet that the manufacturers have part shortages or obsolescence issues, and they are using two or three different model hard drives for the same exact model number of DVR. Some hard drives are louder than others. That plus a software release that now exercises the drive could account for the sudden increase in noise in only some of the DVRs.
> 
> I doubt they're performing hard drive scans during normal operation. That would slow things down too much. Besides, the only scan that would make that much noise is the butterfly scan, and there's NO WAY anyone would be foolish enough to run that test during normal operation.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Nope, that's wrong. You're thinking about leaving the hard drive on a shelf for years where things might seize up. That's won't happen on a modern hard drive unless it's already defective before it goes on the shelf.
> 
> The DVR is the worse-case scenario for reliability because the drive is in constant use and inadequately ventilated. It's already in use 24x7. There's no need to further exercise it to maintain reliability.
> 
> Having said that, hard drives are supposed to tolerate this increased level of activity without any problems. So no one should be worried that this new activity will cause their DVRs to die. It would accelerate an already occurring death, though.


I talking more about spinning in place not being shelved. I'd think that in general a shelved drive would be OK if stored properly and we're not talking about decades.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> OK -- I meant to say "loud" and not just "noise".  But these results are skewed if people say "I don't think it's loud but I have it in an cabinet all the time. So I voted no." Plus, the sudden increase in activity doesn't happen all the time. So opening the door for five seconds and listening to it isn't going to tell you anything. The problem is that it's quiet and suddenly starts making a lot of noise, and even disrupts the audio/video. It's distracting.


OK .. you want to skew the results towards it "being loud" by forcing folks to change their environment. I'm actually trying to determine who thinks it's loud based on how their environment is set. TBlazer for example has a setup that is similar to mine. Yeah, I hear the drive, it's 3 feet from my head. I don't consider it loud. If it were enclosed I probably wouldn't even hear it. I'm sure if you put someone else in the same location as me, they would call it loud. There are way too many variables to try and get real scientific data. You either think it's loud or you don't and that's all I'm asking.



> I'm trying to see if the manufacturers are using different model hard drives for the same exact model of DVR. I would bet that the manufacturers have part shortages or obsolescence issues, and they are using two or three different model hard drives for the same exact model number of DVR. Some hard drives are louder than others. That plus a software release that now exercises the drive could account for the sudden increase in noise in only some of the DVRs.


I suspect the difference in noise is more a factor of environment and tolerance levels than difference in drives. It would be great if the noise were more constant as it would be more like white noise than a distraction.



> I doubt they're performing hard drive scans during normal operation. That would slow things down too much. Besides, the only scan that would make that much noise is the butterfly scan, and there's NO WAY anyone would be foolish enough to run that test during normal operation.


I think you may be equating DVR data with PC data .. they are not the same thing.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> Absolutely right on. I've also tried a totally different drive in my owned box and it does the same thing but on that drive "normal" operation IS a slight bit louder but the "sudden" activity we are referring to is the same. Sounds like 50 squirrels with big heavy feet running around in the attic.


Ha funny you should bring that up .. The squirrel that jumps onto my roof in the mornings is actually louder than the HDD in my HR20-700.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

If you think that's loud, you should have heard the woodpeckers that would attack the roof of one house I had, looking for bugs.


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

Enough. I called customer service yesterday, and I'm getting a replacement shipped.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

Bluto17 said:


> Enough. I called customer service yesterday, and I'm getting a replacement shipped.


This is what I want to see. Loud or not is irrelevant, it's the audio and video issues that come with the increased activity that matter. If you're able to get that replacement what did you tell them and what did you have to do before they agreed to replace it?

I've gone through all the diagnostic routines and they show no problems. I've gotten hammered on DTV's own tech forums for stating that I believe this is caused by software so I also want to hear from those who get replacement units to see if the problems are then solved, because I'm not going to spend a whole afternoon with a csr trying to convince him to replace my device and then have the new device do exactly the same thing. Plus I have no objective evidence that I can use to prove to a csr that a replacement is needed.
John


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

I have 2 HR21s and 1 HR20 and I would have to put my ear to the box housing to hear it run. No problem with excessive noise here. My computer tower is louder by far.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

pappasbike said:


> This is what I want to see. Loud or not is irrelevant, it's the audio and video issues that come with the increased activity that matter. If you're able to get that replacement what did you tell them and what did you have to do before they agreed to replace it?


In my case I described the symptoms (frenetic disk activity accompanied by occasional freezups/stuttering of the recording being played back, said I had proved it was not a problem with the original data stream by watching the same segment again and not seeing a problem). Told them that I considered it unacceptable not to be able to reliably watch my recordings without experiencing hicccups. They then offered to replace the box. I was not asked to do any diags or reformatting. I declined the replacement, hoping for a software fix, which the CSR also said was in the works at the time (034C was current version).

Of course your mileage may vary, and mine might vary next time I call, depending on the CSR. This was a few weeks ago, before 0368 came out.


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## clay_w (Dec 7, 2003)

johnp37 said:


> I have 2 HR21s and 1 HR20 and I would have to put my ear to the box housing to hear it run. No problem with excessive noise here. My computer tower is louder by far.


To contrast, I have my pc tower a few feet from my couch and it is pretty much always on and I can't hear it but I can hear my HR20 hard drive thrashing from about 15 feet away and it is in an enclosed entertainment unit.

This probably started about a few weeks ago and is accompanied sometimes by video and audio hiccups.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

clay_w said:


> I can hear my HR20 hard drive thrashing from about 15 feet away and it is in an enclosed entertainment unit.


Yeah, hoping to help with noise avoidance, I just moved my HR20-700 from an open shelf. It helped some, but I can still hear the periodic drive thrashing from all viewing positions in the room (from 5-15 feet). Possibly I wouldn't "hear" it if I hadn't become so sensitized to drive noise from the DVR lately.

I have had DVRs on the same open shelf for 10 years (since the first ReplayTV) and noise has never been an issue with any of them until now.


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## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

I voted yes not because the drive is particularly loud, but the fact that it is being called on for some heavy duty work which makes it heard when it is normally silent. When it is reading/writing like crazy it also causes video and/or audio stutter.

Dave


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

pappasbike said:


> This is what I want to see. Loud or not is irrelevant, it's the audio and video issues that come with the increased activity that matter. If you're able to get that replacement what did you tell them and what did you have to do before they agreed to replace it?
> 
> John


I told them the hard drive was loudly grinding, and was starting to fail.


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Regardless of the sarcasm here, I will say that having drive activity is better than virtually no activity in terms of drive reliability. So there is a valid reason to exercise (or "stress") the drive at times.
> 
> That being said, the point I just stated is a side-effect, not a reason.


Way way back (late 80's) Quantum had issues where an actuator would stop moving, they addressed that by replacing the ROM on the drive to throw in a few arm movements every few hours. Around the same time, Seagate had issues with the platters not being able to spin up from a cold start. I've not heard of any drives since then that had similar issues.

Even if this were related to the current discussion (and it's not), having the actuator thrash violently on a regular basis would serve no purpose except to generate service calls.

Can we stay on topic please?

I know I can call DTV and get my HR20-700 replaced, but if it's a firmware issue and I get another HR20-700, then I've accomplished absolutely nothing.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

Hard drive is crazy loud. Started with the update in Sept and has been veeeeeeery annoying since. Prior to that update, no problems/noise at all. Actually, came on dbstalk tonight to to find out if anyone had any insight as to when DirecTV was going to fix this very annoying and disruptive bug/problem that was introduced. This is a bit of a vent too but this noise is quickly getting old. 

Anyone have any idea when this will be fixed?


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

Bluto17 said:


> I told them the hard drive was loudly grinding, and was starting to fail.


Please come back and let us know if the problem is solved with the replacement unit. I want to see more people saying replacement units are not doing the same thing once they get the current software. I've read posts by those requesting replacements but have seen very few if any saying the issue did not reoccur with the new dvrs.
John


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## B Newt (Aug 12, 2007)

My hard drive makes noise intermittently.


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## bflora (Nov 6, 2007)

Mine has always been noisy (hr20-700).


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## OlderNDirt (Mar 17, 2007)

Unbearably loud.

I have 2 HR20-700's, one I sit within 10' of and is quiet. The other is very intrusively loud from 15' - 20'. It sits on a shelf by itself and I have tried moving it around to no avail. Even considering putting it in a closed cablinet and taking my chances with the heat.


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## theesir (Dec 10, 2007)

HR20-700- in the bedroom, on a shelf about 10 feet away.I'm in the eastern time zone and for the past couple of months, each morning, about 5:30 the harddrive sounds like it is doing its morning exercises. Enough to wake myself and my wife. Definetely a grinding noise like there is tons of writing being done to the disk. Sometimes continuous for minutes at a time. 
My wife is ready to kick me and the DVR out of the bedroom. 
By the way, we've had this DVR for a couple of years without incident and an old Tivo unit in there for 5 before that. Only recently has this become an issue.

But I guess from reading most of the posts, we are just imagining this at 5:30 every morning.


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## naijai (Aug 19, 2006)

My HR's to make some noise especially when they are reading the hard drive but normally they are all quiet except for HR23 which lets out a high pitched noise only heard by me :bang and drives me nuts at times


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

naijal, I hear that noise too sometimes, don't be disheartened.


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## d max82 (May 23, 2007)

HR20-700. Sounds like windows disk defragerment running constantly. Can be heard from othside of room.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> naijal, I hear that noise too sometimes, don't be disheartened.


If you can turn your head and make the sound go away, I think that's something to do with an oscillator, if they still use them. The first color TV, a GE, I ever bought had this problem. Damn near drove my crazy and "couldn't" be fixed.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

d max82 said:


> HR20-700. Sounds like windows disk defragerment running constantly. Can be heard from othside of room.


Six 20-700s I've got and not a peep out of any of them. How to explain this?

Rich


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

Count me as another with many A/V freezes (one HR21-100 in use since March '08), but in my case I don't hear any abnormal disk activity. Plus the thing has rebooted itself once tonight and twice last night that I know of.  Started about a month ago, about the same time many others noticed. Gotta be software IMHO. I don't want to lose the recordings I have, so I am reluctant to call DirecTV and get the standard CS response of reformatting....

I don't suppose there's any news on the next NR and the odds this will be addressed?

Thanks to all, this board is a terrific resource!


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

It's getting better, but not totally fixed yet. When lots of people start demanding replacement DVR's, it WILL be addressed. D* management will eventually connect the dots. It's just a matter of time.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> Count me as another with many A/V freezes (one HR21-100 in use since March '08), but in my case I don't hear any abnormal disk activity. Plus the thing has rebooted itself once tonight and twice last night that I know of.  Started about a month ago, about the same time many others noticed. Gotta be software IMHO. I don't want to lose the recordings I have, so I am reluctant to call DirecTV and get the standard CS response of reformatting....
> 
> I don't suppose there's any news on the next NR and the odds this will be addressed?
> 
> Thanks to all, this board is a terrific resource!


If you're getting random reboots, you might want to check all your cable connections. I had this problem and it was due to a grounding block being installed with the connectors only finger tight. Tightened them up with a 7/16 wrench, gently, and no more reboots.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Do you all realize that if you put a cheap 500G eSATA on your noisy HR, the noise should go away? Once the HR sees the eSATA, the internal drive just spins, does nothing else and can actually be disconnected (if you own your HR) without any problems. A 500G eSATA shouldn't cost more than a $100.

Rich


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

HR20-700 - Yes, loud.
HR21-200 - Not loud.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

mdavej said:


> It's getting better, but not totally fixed yet. When lots of people start demanding replacement DVR's, it WILL be addressed. D* management will eventually connect the dots. It's just a matter of time.


This is my contention also. If this isn't a software issue solvable by an update it's going to be very expensive for DTV to replace all these units. I keep having certain posters continue to tell me it's a dying hard drive that can only be corrected by being replaced. Why did all these HDs pick this software update to start dying, and if that's the case why wouldn't the CSRs from DTV just say they are aware of it and will replace our units? I still plan on waiting through one more update to see if there is a resolution, if not I will complain as much as needed to get mine replaced.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

d max82 said:


> HR20-700. Sounds like windows disk defragerment running constantly. Can be heard from othside of room.


+1


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> Do you all realize that if you put a cheap 500G eSATA on your noisy HR, the noise should go away? Once the HR sees the eSATA, the internal drive just spins, does nothing else and can actually be disconnected (if you own your HR) without any problems. A 500G eSATA shouldn't cost more than a $100.
> 
> Rich


Makes no difference. The head thrashing isn't due to the specific hard drive but to whatever the HR is doing at the time (has to be some kind of indexing). Recording or not recording doesn't matter either. Interal or exteral, tried 'em both. This isn't "standard" hard drive head activity. It's "frantic thrashing" for a period of time then stops and goes back to "normal" sounds.

Problem is, folks here are equating this issue with "fan noise" (wrong), bad hard drive (wrong), BRAND of hard drive (wrong). If your receiver is tucked away somewhere you'll never hear it and since it doesn't happen ALL the time one may have never heard it.

I believe the problem will be mostly resoved whenever the next software release comes out.


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## jgriffin7 (Feb 16, 2007)

I can only speak for the HR21-100 in my bedroom; I never, repeat never, heard the hard drive before this latest CE. Now, I'm tempted to unplug the darn thing at night.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Makes no difference. The head thrashing isn't due to the specific hard drive but to whatever the HR is doing at the time (has to be some kind of indexing). Recording or not recording doesn't matter either. Interal or exteral, tried 'em both. This isn't "standard" hard drive head activity. It's "frantic thrashing" for a period of time then stops and goes back to "normal" sounds.


Didn't remember if anyone had tried sticking an eSATA on the HRs in question.



> Problem is, folks here are equating this issue with "fan noise" (wrong), bad hard drive (wrong), BRAND of hard drive (wrong). If your receiver is tucked away somewhere you'll never hear it and since it doesn't happen ALL the time one may have never heard it.


I know the noise that you guys are talking about isn't "fan noise". And it certainly isn't "marginal" HDDs. Most of the HRs have Seagate internals and it sure isn't a bad crop of Seagates.

Mine are all out in the open and I don't hear anything abnormal going on. The HDDs are also getting blamed for the audio and video dropouts and the pixellations and I'm reasonably sure that that's not possible either. I have ten HRs and they have a total of sixteen internal and external HDDs and they ALL have the same problems. Most of the HDDs that I use are new or relatively new. So I say again: "Marginal, My Foot!".



> I believe the problem will be mostly resoved whenever the next software release comes out.


Lot's of luck with that. I have a feeling we'll be paying for the DLB NR for quite a while.

Rich


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

rich584 said:


> If you're getting random reboots, you might want to check all your cable connections. I had this problem and it was due to a grounding block being installed with the connectors only finger tight. Tightened them up with a 7/16 wrench, gently, and no more reboots.
> 
> Rich


Thanks for the advice.  I tightened everything on the grounding block this evening and we'll see what happens. Since all of the connections were pretty solid, I'm not holding my breath....


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

My Hard Drives are so Quiet that I am becoming Suspicious!!!

You guys are driving me NUTS!!!

Get a GOOD HARD DRIVE for God's Sake!!! You need a VIAGRA HARD DRIVE!!!

I have 6 DVRs and none of them are experiencing drive noise!!!

How OLD is your DVR???


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

I voted no. I've got to put my ear next to the receiver to hear the hard drive.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

... and had the protection plan order me a replacement HR DVR. I hope I don't get another HR20-700, or if I do, it doesn't exhibit this problem. I'll report back when I receive the unit and swap it out.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

Is this version the most recent GR? 

I've been complaining about this for at least a month now. All 3 of mine are loud, and now the last is experiencing video/audio pausing issues during playback. The other 2 have been doing that for a while.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

This issue has nothing to do with "normal" hard drive or HR2x noise level. My HR20's are virtually silent as well EXCEPT when this is happening. Putting your ear to the drive won't matter if you aren't there when it happens unless you glue your ear to it 24/7. 

Many responders to the question are confusing everyday normal operational noise level of fans and hard-drive (which is low) with the specific issue in question which happens at random intervals and lasts only a finite amount of time.



billsharpe said:


> I voted no. I've got to put my ear next to the receiver to hear the hard drive.


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

pappasbike said:


> Please come back and let us know if the problem is solved with the replacement unit. I want to see more people saying replacement units are not doing the same thing once they get the current software. I've read posts by those requesting replacements but have seen very few if any saying the issue did not reoccur with the new dvrs.
> John


I'm going to hook it up tonight. I'll let you know.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

mesaboy2 said:


> Thanks for the advice.  I tightened everything on the grounding block this evening and we'll see what happens. Since all of the connections were pretty solid, I'm not holding my breath....


Well, the thing behaved well last night and I actually thought for a few hours that might have done the trick, but alas this afternoon another random reboot. Boo, hiss, general disappointment. :crying:


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## azarby (Dec 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> This poll is an effort to quantify an issue that has been mentioned a number of times recently in this thread ..
> 
> If you have 0x368 (or higher) what do you think?


Mine (HR20-700) was loud (and thrashing), but last night I ran the diagnostics advanced hard drive surface test and this morning it was as quiet as could be. Disk diagnostc took about 2.5 hrs

Bob


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> Well, the thing behaved well last night and I actually thought for a few hours that might have done the trick, but alas this afternoon another random reboot. Boo, hiss, general disappointment. :crying:


Worth a try. Lots of things can apparently cause reboots.

Rich


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Worth a try. Lots of things can apparently cause reboots.
> 
> Rich


Yeah, including bad NRs with DLB I'm guessing. Thanks anyway!!! :up:


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

azarby said:


> Mine (HR20-700) was loud (and thrashing), but last night I ran the diagnostics advanced hard drive surface test and this morning it was as quiet as could be. Disk diagnostc took about 2.5 hrs


I've done that previously w/ my HR20-700 -- more than once -- but the periodic disk thrashing has always returned.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> This issue has nothing to do with "normal" hard drive or HR2x noise level. My HR20's are virtually silent as well EXCEPT when this is happening. Putting your ear to the drive won't matter if you aren't there when it happens unless you glue your ear to it 24/7.
> 
> Many responders to the question are confusing everyday normal operational noise level of fans and hard-drive (which is low) with the specific issue in question which happens at random intervals and lasts only a finite amount of time.


The problem is when it happens. The hdd will act like it struggling while recording and during playback, causing audio/video issues. The HR20 is our bedroom is 15 ft away but we can still hear it.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> I've done that previously w/ my HR20-700 -- more than once -- but the periodic disk thrashing has always returned.


How do you do this?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

mx6bfast said:


> How do you do this?


To access the advanced diagnostics, do a menu reset. After the "Just a few more seconds screen", you'll see a "receiver self-check" message. Press SELECT at that point to enter the diagnostics menu where the hard drive tests can be selected.


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## johnp37 (Sep 14, 2006)

richierich said:


> My Hard Drives are so Quiet that I am becoming Suspicious!!!
> 
> You guys are driving me NUTS!!!
> 
> ...


My HR20 and 2 HR21s have not now or ever experienced drive noise period!! Not before or since 0x0368. It seems this is an anomaly affecting random machines, obviously not all.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> Yeah, including bad NRs with DLB I'm guessing. Thanks anyway!!! :up:


Did you check every connection? I know it's a lot of work but just one or two loose connectors can cause reboots. The BBCs, for instance, can work themselves loose even tho it seems that you have tightened them up correctly. The only way to be really sure it to take that 7/16 wrench to all the connections.

Oddly, I haven't experienced any random reboots that I can blame on the DLB NR.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

johnp37 said:


> My HR20 and 2 HR21s have not now or ever experienced drive noise period!! Not before or since 0x0368. It seems this is an anomaly affecting random machines, obviously not all.


Really makes you wonder, doesn't it? I've got ten HRs on line now and none of them do it. The TiVos used to drive me nuts making those seeking noises, so I know what people are going thru. I doubt if the age of the HR makes any difference, three of my 20-700s were made in Mexico and you can't get any older than that and not a peep from them. I own all three and have large new internals in them. I've only got one HR (a 21-200) that runs on the original internal and that's quiet too, been running silently for about two years.

I don't doubt the people that have posted about the noise issues and I have little doubt that the DLB NR caused the problem just as it caused the dropouts on audio and video to begin. The dropout issues I have on all my HRs. And aside from the aforementioned 200, all have relatively new HDDs on them. Blaming the HDDs borders on the ridiculous. I've tried disconnecting my eSATAs and recording on the internals and I still get the dropouts. That's a lot of HDDs to call "marginal".

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

mesaboy2 said:


> Count me as another with many A/V freezes (one HR21-100 in use since March '08), but in my case I don't hear any abnormal disk activity. Plus the thing has rebooted itself once tonight and twice last night that I know of.  Started about a month ago, about the same time many others noticed. Gotta be software IMHO. I don't want to lose the recordings I have, so I am reluctant to call DirecTV and get the standard CS response of reformatting....
> 
> I don't suppose there's any news on the next NR and the odds this will be addressed?
> 
> Thanks to all, this board is a terrific resource!


Rebooting can be caused by many things such as "Static Electricity Buildup" due to improper grounding or by BBCs that are sporadically failing. When the BBCs Fail the DVR thinks it has a problem that may be corrected by a Reboot so it reboots to try and fix the problem. It also can be caused by a port that is going bad or a failing tuner.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

azarby said:


> Mine (HR20-700) was loud (and thrashing), but last night I ran the diagnostics advanced hard drive surface test and this morning it was as quiet as could be. Disk diagnostc took about 2.5 hrs
> 
> Bob





mx6bfast said:


> How do you do this?


To run the hard drive checks, please follow these steps:


reboot STB via Menu -> Parental, Fav's & Setup -> System Setup -> Reset -> Restart Receiver
when they see "Running receiver self-check" press select
You will see "Entering Diagnostics Mode..."
select Advanced Tests Menu -> Hard Drive utilities -> Surface Test
*Warning*: This process could take several hours to complete. You may want to run it overnight.

The good news is that every attempt is made to save programming. This is less destructive than a reformat all and could provide you with a more stable system if you are having problems that appear to be related to the hard drive.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Did you check every connection? I know it's a lot of work but just one or two loose connectors can cause reboots. The BBCs, for instance, can work themselves loose even tho it seems that you have tightened them up correctly. The only way to be really sure it to take that 7/16 wrench to all the connections.
> 
> Oddly, I haven't experienced any random reboots that I can blame on the DLB NR.





richierich said:


> Rebooting can be caused by many things such as "Static Electricity Buildup" due to improper grounding or by BBCs that are sporadically failing. When the BBCs Fail the DVR thinks it has a problem that may be corrected by a Reboot so it reboots to try and fix the problem. It also can be caused by a port that is going bad or a failing tuner.


No, I did not check anywhere but the grounding block outside. When I'm feeling industrious, or I get especially frustrated, I'll pull stuff out and look at the BBCs and any other connections. Thanks to you both!


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## pwalker (Aug 19, 2006)

I have been sitting on the sidelines patiently waiting for a fix but I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever happen. All 3 of my HR20-700's exhibit the same issues since the software upgrade - extremely noisy hard drives that can be heard from 20 feet away, audio dropouts and picture dropouts after pausing a live or recorded program.

I'm trying to be patient that DirecTV is working on a solution and that a future software update will fix the issues. 

However, is there anything that I can do in the interim? If I decide to add external SATA drives will this fix the noise issue? I don't believe there is a solve for the audio/picture dropouts but correct me if I'm wrong.

I like the HR20-700's for the built-in OTA tuner.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

pwalker said:


> However, is there anything that I can do in the interim? If I decide to add external SATA drives will this fix the noise issue? I don't believe there is a solve for the audio/picture dropouts but correct me if I'm wrong.


Using an eSATA drive does not reduce the bursts of heavy disk activity that we're seeing with recent software. It can, however, possibly reduce the noise from that activity -- depending upon the drive and enclosure chosen, and if one is able to place it is a less obtrusive location where any noise is less likely to be heard. The HR20 with the vents right over the drive isn't very good at minimizing noise from these heavy bursts of activity.

I wouldn't expect any improvements WRT the dropouts -- I only _very_ rarely see them, even during the bursts of drive activity -- but I suppose it's possible that a newer/different drive may reduce them.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> No, I did not check anywhere but the grounding block outside. When I'm feeling industrious, or I get especially frustrated, I'll pull stuff out and look at the BBCs and any other connections. Thanks to you both!


Hey, it's a lot of work. You really gotta get up on the roof and check those connections too. Even the bolts holding my original dish together were loose. The installers just put everything together finger tight and let it go at that. Do that with electrical installations and you're in for a catastrophe.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

pwalker said:


> I have been sitting on the sidelines patiently waiting for a fix but I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever happen. All 3 of my HR20-700's exhibit the same issues since the software upgrade - extremely noisy hard drives that can be heard from 20 feet away, audio dropouts and picture dropouts after pausing a live or recorded program.
> 
> I'm trying to be patient that DirecTV is working on a solution and that a future software update will fix the issues.
> 
> ...


Have patience. Members have tried the eSATA route and that doesn't solve the problem, so it's not bad HDDs. That DLB NR screwed things up and they've got to resolve the problems caused by that NR. Takes time. Last thing we need is a quick fix attempt that makes things worse.

About the audio and video dropouts, the best advice, again, is have patience. Believe it or not, this is nowhere near what we went thru three years ago. That was truly a nightmare. They'll get this fixed.

Rich


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

rich584 said:


> They'll get this fixed.


My problem is that we have no idea if DirecTV is even aware of the problem. Of course, first level tech support hasn't heard of the issue and comments from Doug on this board (although we all know he doesn't speak for DirecTV) certainly don't give me confidence that they're working on a solution....


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## RobertE (Jun 10, 2006)

MattWarner said:


> My problem is that we have no idea if DirecTV is even aware of the problem. Of course, first level tech support hasn't heard of the issue and comments from Doug on this board (although we all know he doesn't speak for DirecTV) certainly don't give me confidence that they're working on a solution....


You will rarely, if ever, get confirmation of any issues by the front line CSRs. You can ask all you want, but your not going to get anywhere.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

MattWarner said:


> My problem is that we have no idea if DirecTV is even aware of the problem. Of course, first level tech support hasn't heard of the issue and comments from Doug on this board (although we all know he doesn't speak for DirecTV) certainly don't give me confidence that they're working on a solution....


First Level Customer Service Representatives only know the Basics and Read from a Script so they don't have a Clue about the more technical issues and that should be obvious to you and everyone!!!

You always have to ask for a more Senior Person and even then I have had to ask for Customer Retention Specialist in order to get something done!!!


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> To run the hard drive checks, please follow these steps:
> 
> 
> reboot STB via Menu -> Parental, Fav's & Setup -> System Setup -> Reset -> Restart Receiver
> ...


What about the File System Verification test? Would that help as well?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mdavej said:


> What about the File System Verification test? Would that help as well?


The test that will be most useful is the surface scan as that will generally do a fix of sorts on the video portions of the disk.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

I can't believe the number of people who are saying its the drive going bad.  Two HR20-700s with relatively new external drives that just started doing the excessive seeking after the last updates. I suppose both drives just decided to go bad exactly at the same time. Yeah, right. :nono2: It should be obvious by the number of posts that there is something else going on besides rampant hard drive failures.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Really makes you wonder, doesn't it? I've got ten HRs on line now and none of them do it. ...... I don't doubt the people that have posted about the noise issues and I have little doubt that the DLB NR caused the problem just as it caused the dropouts on audio and video to begin. *The dropout issues I have on all my HRs*. .....
> Rich


Rich are you saying that you observe the freeze-ups of video/audio when playing recordings with all 10 of these HRs (since 034C and 0368), but you do not hear the frenetic disk activity?


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## heebzman (Aug 5, 2007)

> My HR20-700 is loud to the point that it seriously interferes with my ability to enjoy watching movies/games/etc. (and I like to listen to movies loud) It is not just an increase in activity, it is much louder.


This exactly what I was going to post....last night my kid and I were watching the Star Trek movie with the sound pretty loud, and I swear the damn Directv box was louder, even my kid commented about how much chattering the box was making and it wasn't even recording at the time...starting to REALLY drive me nutz

Called Directv about it and was told I had to do a total reset,wipe the drive, and see if it was still happening before I could swap the box


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The test that will be most useful is the surface scan as that will generally do a fix of sorts on the video portions of the disk.


Thanks. I ran them all anyway (except SMART Long). All PASSED. We'll see if the freezes go away now.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> Rich are you saying that you observe the freeze-ups of video/audio when playing recordings with all 10 of these HRs (since 034C and 0368), but you do not hear the frenetic disk activity?


Yes. And the only "luck" I have is usually bad luck. There used to be a few members (including me) who were convinced that the NRs "rooted out" HRs that were going bad. But at that time they were few and far between.

What I see regarding the dropouts without the strange disk noises makes me think that the two issues are not related. Other than that, I have no idea what's causing the noisy HDDs. I'm sure it's not age and I kinda doubt that the HDDs are at fault, I think it must be something in the HRs themselves that was triggered by the DLB NR.

I think we've just got to be patient and wait for a fix for both issues. What else can we do? Dish is too expensive, they wanted about $3000 to replicate my setup. They did send me a voucher for almost $700 to offset the cost, but that's still too expensive, considering D* gave me three or four HRs at no cost and a couple more at $99 each.

Cablevision is too expensive, they only have single tuner DVRs and they cost $10 each a month. I pay $45 for my ten HRs monthly and it would cost me $200 a month just to have the number of tuners I have now with Cablevision.

I hate to say this, but I've been playing with a Roku player for about three weeks and I can see a future in this sort of device. Unfortunately Verizon FIOS is the only provider that has the same type of service and I don't want to get involved with Verizon any more than I have to.

That's it. What else can you do? Have patience, this isn't the first time we've gone thru this type of thing. It's been a lot worse in the past and we survived that.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> First Level Customer Service Representatives only know the Basics and Read from a Script so they don't have a Clue about the more technical issues and that should be obvious to you and everyone!!!
> 
> You always have to ask for a more Senior Person and even then I have had to ask for Customer Retention Specialist in order to get something done!!!


I don't even bother to call up D* anymore. It's an act of futility and solves nothing.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

heebzman said:


> This exactly what I was going to post....last night my kid and I were watching the Star Trek movie with the sound pretty loud, and I swear the damn Directv box was louder, even my kid commented about how much chattering the box was making and it wasn't even recording at the time...starting to REALLY drive me nutz
> 
> Called Directv about it and was told I had to do a total reset,wipe the drive, and see if it was still happening before I could swap the box


That's a typical answer from someone who doesn't even own an HR in all likelihood. Next time you call a CSR for help ask him/her if they own an HR. I do, and they usually tell me they're saving for one and ask me all kinds of questions about them. How can you expect them to help you? They're underpaid and undertrained and really do just read off scripts.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MattWarner said:


> My problem is that we have no idea if DirecTV is even aware of the problem. Of course, first level tech support hasn't heard of the issue and comments from Doug on this board (although we all know he doesn't speak for DirecTV) certainly don't give me confidence that they're working on a solution....


They're aware of the problems. If they could solve them right now, they would. The issues will get fixed. It took a long time and a lot of work to implement the DLBs and now it's gonna take a long time and a lot of work to correct the mistakes they made.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> I can't believe the number of people who are saying its the drive going bad.  Two HR20-700s with relatively new external drives that just started doing the excessive seeking after the last updates. I suppose both drives just decided to go bad exactly at the same time. Yeah, right. :nono2: *It should be obvious by the number of posts that there is something else going on besides rampant hard drive failures*.


On the other hand...some of us who have 2 or more HR20-700's(and running every CE along the way) are not seeing this problem/noise at all.....so that pops the theory.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> On the other hand...some of us who have 2 or more HR20-700's(and running every CE along the way) are not seeing this problem/noise at all.....so that pops the theory.


I don't think so. I think that your running all the CEs "conditioned" your HRs for the DLB NR. And I think thats the one thing wrong with the testing program.

Rich


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

rich584 said:


> I don't think so. I think that your running all the CEs "conditioned" your HRs for the DLB NR. And I think thats the one thing wrong with the testing program.


My HR20-700 has run every CE since the first "Santa" release years ago. The HD activity/bursts did not begin until many months later than the first CE that included DLB. The increased HD activity (and associated noise) began immediately with a CE release from this summer.

On our second HR20-700 that stays on the NR, the same activity/noise did begin immediately with the NR that officially rolled out DLB.

Summing up: (1) the disk activity/noise did start with that NR, but it isn't DLB that is the culprit, and (2) there is no "CE conditioning" apparent in this household.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

There is a recent poster who just got DTV service recently with a new dvr and is reporting these issues. What causes some of these units to exhibit these issues and others to not exhibit them I don't know but it leaves me leery of going to the hassle of trying to get mine replaced. At this point I'm going to wait out another software update, if nothing is resolved at that point then I'll presume a replacement is the only solution( hopefully).


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

There is hope. It may be too early to tell, but after running the surface scan that Doug suggested, my frequent freezes and frantic disk activity that have plagued me for months have completely disappeared.

Thanks, Doug!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I don't think so.
> Rich


Then again.....hmmmm....this would seem to pop that bubble back towards the other two theories presented....bad drive or bad fragmentation...


mdavej said:


> There is hope. It may be too early to tell, but after running the surface scan that Doug suggested, my frequent freezes and frantic disk activity that have plagued me for months have completely disappeared.
> 
> Thanks, Doug!


Good to hear...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I believe that 90% of these cases are either a hard drive beginning to Fail with Bad or Marginal Sectors due to thin platter coatings and age wear or Defragmentation Issues that can be resolved by a Reorganization of the drive.

A software download can just accelerate these issues as I had these many many times with my 2 HR10-250s and they were resolved by running Spinrite Data Recovery Software, then backing up the drive and then replacing the failing drive and reloading the recordings. Most of the posters I have read have older DVRs that probably have a drive that is beginning to exhibit thinning of platter layers where Read/Writes can be unpredictable. In fact information on a bad sector can cause the drive to try multiply reads from various angles at varying speeds until it gets a Good Read.

If was just a bad software download then everyone would be experiencing those problems.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

richierich said:


> If was just a bad software download then everyone would be experiencing those problems.


Yes, clearly it is a combination of factors.

What I am still curious about is what is the new software doing that makes these problems noticeable (for some customers)? Before 034C there was no issue as far as I know. What did they change, and why?


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

richierich said:


> I believe that 90% of these cases are either a hard drive beginning to Fail with Bad or Marginal Sectors due to thin platter coatings and age wear or Defragmentation Issues that can be resolved by a Reorganization of the drive.


 Oh boy here we go again. Déjà vu of Tivo V1.3 and the stutters that 'had' to be bad drives but were miraculously healed with V2.0.

And as I mentioned above I have two nearly new external drives that both started doing it at the exact same time. The odds of both drives failing the same way at the same time are about nill.



richierich said:


> If was just a bad software download then everyone would be experiencing those problems.


Bzzzzz....wrong answer.:nono2: I suppose you have never heard of a bug that only occurs under certain circumstances. There are endless configuration possibilities, any one which can be the cause. To claim that everyone would have to have the problem for it to be a bug defies all logic and is ludicrous.


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## Alabamatechguy (Aug 27, 2009)

I voted no. Any computer type device with a hard drive will make such noises. I realize that. It's audible of course, but not intrusive. When the cooling fan goes to high speed it is only for a short time most of the time. It's an issue for some, but not for me.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mdavej said:


> There is hope. It may be too early to tell, but after running the surface scan that Doug suggested, my frequent freezes and frantic disk activity that have plagued me for months have completely disappeared.


Please provide a further update in due course and advise whether the "fix" was permanent or temporary.....

Also - has anyone tried a re-format, and with what results?


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

poppo said:


> Oh boy here we go again. Déjà vu of Tivo V1.3 and the stutters that 'had' to be bad drives but were miraculously healed with V2.0.
> 
> And as I mentioned above I have two nearly new external drives that both started doing it at the exact same time. The odds of both drives failing the same way at the same time are about nill.


Yes, absolutely. The symptoms started on both our HR20-700s immediately upon release of a particular software version. Attaching two new eSata drives to the units resulted in the same drive activity bursts (though the noise was much less intrusive due to quieter cases and less obtrusive drive placement).

All drives tested completely fine on DirecTV advanced drive diagnostics.

It's a software change (as Doug has confirmed). Some people with some models of DVRs (i.e., top-vented HR20's using the internal drive) in some room locations (i.e., "in the open" rather than in an enclosed shelf) will be more likely to hear the bursts of drive seek noise than will others.

I have been able to essentially eliminate the noise problem by redesigning my A/V setup and moving the HR20 to an enclosed cabinet with an external cooling fan. So now I don't have a "loud hard drive" ... but if I open the cabinet, it is still churning away periodically in a way that would be intrusive in its previous (completely open, top shelf) location.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bwaldron said:


> Yes, absolutely.


It's not "absolute".

Yes, the software may have instigated the symptoms for some users, but many users have seen NO SIGNS of this whatsoever...therefore the correction to the issue is still not validated for certain.


poppo said:


> Oh boy here we go again. Déjà vu of Tivo V1.3 and the stutters that 'had' to be bad drives but were miraculously healed with V2.0.
> 
> And as I mentioned above I have two nearly new external drives that both started doing it at the exact same time. The odds of both drives failing the same way at the same time are about nill.


Severe fragmentation on the drive, apparently "enhanced" via an update several firmware releases ago is one theory. The noise is drive head data-seeking noise. This is common on PC's that require defragmentation.

Of those that have reported the issue at their location, a number have indicated that doing the diagnositics disk cleanup has resolved that symptom.

Bottom line, only a small % of folks have experienced the problem, and a number of those have resolved it using the process Doug Brott outlined in his post previously. Folks may want to *run* that process *before* concluding they have a bad drive.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, if it is Software related and it is not happening on most DVRs I wonder what those DVRs have in common that would cause the drive noise to happen. If it was just software than all DVRs would experience it so there must be a common cause and that would be most interesting to find out (which we probably will never know).


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yes, the software may have instigated the symptoms for some users, but not all...and the correction to the issue is still not validated for certain.


The increased drive activity in the new software is likely happening for everyone; however, most people will likely not notice it at all (i.e., they are not running older vented-top HR0s in a very open location). As noted, I was able to muffle the noise to inaudible levels by changing location of the DVR. Had I had the DVR there all along, I wouldn't have ever noticed the noise myself. But with the HR20 on an open top shelf, it was VERY noticeable throughout the room.

Even among those with "in the open" HR20s, there is going to be normal variation in the drives due to manufacturing tolerances and different amounts of wear. Some unlucky folks will end up with more noise. There are also, of course, differences in hearing among us -- and different sensitivity to this type of noise.

It is also possible (even likely) that fragmentation of the drive is causing more activity/noise on some DVRs. Running the surface test (and/or the other advanced drive diagnostics) may help to ameliorate that for some folks -- though it definitely did not do so in my case: the seek noise bursts returned within a day. (If fragmentation is indeed an issue, then the DirecTV devs should have a cron job to defrag the drive on a schedule, while in standby).


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bwaldron said:


> The increased drive activity in the new software is likely happening for everyone; however, most people will likely not notice it at all (i.e., they are not running older vented-top HR0s in a very open location).


My HR20-700's are both in totally open and uncovered locations - no such noise.

Others have indicated they could hear it from as far away as another room away...it was very obvious.

I'm also confused as in another thread you indicated you experienced your issues starting "this summer", yet the 0368 national firmware was not released until about a month ago or so...whereby you stated software was "absolutely" the source. Most others indicated it "appeared" only as of 0368.

I suspect you are partially right and partially wrong.

Updated/new firmware by itself likely did not cause the smaller number of folks with these symptoms to experience the louder driver noise...especially since most people with the very same firmware did not share that experience.

However, the firmware (based on its size or some other characteristic) may have somehow been a "catalyst" to fragmentation on some user hard drives...which can cause louder-than-normal dive head noise from seeking data sprawled over larger ranges of hard disk surface than "normal".

This happens on fragmented PCs all the time, but only when they are fragmented.

For that reason, Doug Brott shared the best approach to attempt to resolve those symptoms, running the diagnostic process which does the hard drive surface test, and actually defragments data in the process. In most cases (but it's not guaranteed), it does not cause the loss of content already recorded. It takes several hours to run that test - likely an overnight task.

Several people who have run that test have indicated that the problem "went away" after performing this process. Again....there is no guarantee it will correct the problem...but a number of users have posted that it did work for them.

You indicated in another post that you have started running this test yourself on one HR20-700....so please share your results. Regardless of the outcome, it will be good information that will help others. Thanks.


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## Bluto17 (Jan 31, 2007)

Well, I installed my replacement HR20-700 over the weekend. It's a refurb built in mid-2007.

First impression - much quieter. The 'grinding' sound that my old HR20-700 was throwing out has disappeared. Although, I was awakened by excessive hard drive chirping at 3:30am this morning. 

So, the new HR20 has improved the situation. But it's not as quiet as my old HR20 was before the DLB release.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Bottom line, only a small % of folks have experienced the problem, .....


Where are you getting your numbers? 46% of the people in the poll voted it's loud. and if you read the whole thread, many said they voted no even though it was loud, just not enough to be annoying. BTW, I have run all of the HD tests (and they passed) on my drives (that I already knew were fine) and they are chruning away right now just as noisy as before the tests.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm also confused as in another thread you indicated you experienced your issues starting "this summer", yet the 0368 national firmware was not released until about a month ago or so...whereby you stated software was "absolutely" the source. Most others indicated it "appeared" only as of 0368.
> 
> I suspect you are partially right and partially wrong.


I know that comment was not directed at me, but I know you realize some people get to use the software before it goes NR.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> My HR20-700's are both in totally open and uncovered locations - no such noise.


Part of the problem is that just because some people are not having the problem, they tend to dismiss it as a hardware problem or something else. There are probably hundreds of Windows bugs I have never personally encountered, but I don't deny that that they exist for some people, especially when a significant number of people report the same issue at the same time. Like I said above, there are countless configuration possibilities. For example, maybe it's because I have my playlist sorted A-Z and the unit is running amok trying to resort everything too often. I'm just using that as an example of how one configuration change and a bug in that part of the code could affect just a particular group of people.


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## mridan (Nov 15, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> To run the hard drive checks, please follow these steps:
> 
> 
> reboot STB via Menu -> Parental, Fav's & Setup -> System Setup -> Reset -> Restart Receiver
> ...


I just did this,and my HR20-700 passed.Now lets see if it will quiet the unit and hopefully help with all the audio/video dropouts/disturbances.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mridan said:


> I just did this,and my HR20-700 passed.Now lets see if it will quiet the unit and hopefully help with all the audio/video dropouts/disturbances.


Please share your results. Thanks.

Just to set the right expectations...the unit noise and other symptoms may not be related to each other from the same source/cause.


poppo said:


> Where are you getting your numbers? 46% of the people in the poll voted it's loud.


No one is dismissing that its happened, only that the small number of people in the poll, when compared to the millions of users, as well as many thousands posting here, are indeed as small sampling of the population.


> Part of the problem is that just because some people are not having the problem, they tend to dismiss it as a hardware problem or something else.


To the contrary...no one is dismissing anything, rather, they're attempting to seek the *actual* source and resolution, as opposed to spending alot of time going down the wrong roads to address the correction.

If the problem was the firmware itself, almost everyone would see the symptoms - which has not been the case.

If the problem was hardware alone, it would be limited to a smaller number, and likely deteriorate to where we'd see more reports of total hard disk failure.

Since these units are very similar to PC's,. in that they have processors, power supplies, video components, and hard drives....one can certainly assume that some of the same kinds of symptoms found with PC's are applicable.

Hard drives have only 2 "moving" components - a motor to spin the platters and a read-write head. Therefore...any "noise" would have to come from one or the other. Each component has distinct sounds when malfunctioning, which helps diagnose the source of the problem.

Since the 0368 apparently "triggered" the sounds that others have reported here...the read-write head noises found on fragmented disks fit the diagnosis the best - are they correct in all cases? Not necessarily.

The fact that several people who first reported actually ran the surface test, (which incorporates data relocation similar to a PC's defragmentation), and these same folks then reported the noise "went away" after running that process, would lend itself to confirm that how data was stored on some hard drives with the rollout of the 0368 firmware was indeed the most likely suspect. Shy of doing bench testing in detail...there is no certainty.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Please share your results. Thanks.
> 
> Just to set the right expectations...the unit noise and other symptoms may not be related to each other from the same source/cause.


Yes, please share follow up experiences, they are very useful. I can share that the hard drive surface test did _not_ eliminate the hard drive activity bursts and associated noise on either of the HR20-700's in our household. They were quieter for a short while, but the bursts showed up again within a day or two.

I can also share that the bursts of HD activity are not associated with any A/V problems on our DVRs, though I know that they have impacted others in that way. So I am lucky in that regard. Other than the occasional bursts of noise, our two DVRs are performing as reliably as ever, and more quickly than ever before. For us, the noise is an annoyance -- sometimes significantly so -- but not a functionality/performance problem.

Also for perspective, as I have pointed out earlier, 368 has significantly reduced the number and duration of the "thrashing" episodes compared to the previous national release.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> No one is dismissing that its happened, only that the small number of people in the poll, when compared to the millions of users, as well as many thousands posting here, are indeed as small sampling of the population.


So you are basically saying the poll is flawed because it only includes people who came to this site? then I guess all gallop polls are flawed because they do not ask every single person. Every poll has a margin of error, but I think the numbers speak for themselves - something is wrong - and it's not a sudden case of mass hard drive failures.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> If the problem was the firmware itself, almost everyone would see the symptoms - which has not been the case.


This is the number one illogical statement that really peeves me. Did you not read my example above? It could be one of countless configuration settings that are different between different units. If you knew anything about software, you would know that bugs don't always manifest themselves on every machine unless the unit has absotlutely no user settings and no data ever changes. :nono2:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I believe that it is software related that just manifests problems with certain DVRs in certain environment and it would be interesting to know just what causes it but we will probably never know.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> So you are basically saying the poll is *flawed *because it only includes people who came to this site?


Let's not twist what people have *actually* stated, which was not that.

The poll is a random sample of a limited group of the main user population, consisting of those who chose to respond - just like for *any* poll here.

Likewise, no one discounted that some experienced the noise issue. To the contrary, alot of helpful ideas have been exchanged to try to root out a cause.

To diagnose a solution, one typically might first try to determine:

1) Is it isolated or mainstream with users?
2) Are there any environmental considerations?
3) Are their hardware or software (firmware) symptoms (or both)?
4) Proceed from there.

The poll helps along some of these lines...but only as far as the numbers who participate - the more the better. It's a *starting point*.

But moving beyond that...the posters here in this thread have been moving along with these kinds of steps, along with attempts to further narrow things down (such as Doug's suggested surface test process).

It's all about getting the annoyance that is plaguing some folks resolved - any we know everyone would like to see it get resolved for those who have to deal with it.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bwaldron said:


> The increased drive activity in the new software is likely happening for everyone; however, most people will likely not notice it at all (i.e., they are not running older vented-top HR0s in a very open location). As noted, I was able to muffle the noise to inaudible levels by changing location of the DVR. Had I had the DVR there all along, I wouldn't have ever noticed the noise myself. But with the HR20 on an open top shelf, it was VERY noticeable throughout the room.
> 
> Even among those with "in the open" HR20s, there is going to be normal variation in the drives due to manufacturing tolerances and different amounts of wear. Some unlucky folks will end up with more noise. There are also, of course, differences in hearing among us -- and different sensitivity to this type of noise.
> 
> It is also possible (even likely) that fragmentation of the drive is causing more activity/noise on some DVRs. Running the surface test (and/or the other advanced drive diagnostics) may help to ameliorate that for some folks -- though it definitely did not do so in my case: the seek noise bursts returned within a day. (If fragmentation is indeed an issue, then the DirecTV devs should have a cron job to defrag the drive on a schedule, while in standby).


:up:


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

poppo said:


> So you are basically saying the poll is flawed because it only includes people who came to this site? then I guess all gallop polls are flawed because they do not ask every single person. Every poll has a margin of error, but I think the numbers speak for themselves - something is wrong - and it's not a sudden case of mass hard drive failures.


The poll was probably pretty accurate around 100 votes .. Since then it's gotten more and more towards "yes, it's loud" .. which honestly probably means that more "no, it's not" voters simply aren't reading this thread, but it doesn't change the fact that @ 100 votes, it was ~1:3. I'd agree that that is not a small percentage.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bwaldron said:


> It is also possible (even likely) that fragmentation of the drive is causing more activity/noise on some DVRs. Running the surface test (and/or the other advanced drive diagnostics) may help to ameliorate that for some folks -- though it definitely did not do so in my case: the seek noise bursts returned within a day. (If fragmentation is indeed an issue, then the DirecTV devs should have a cron job to defrag the drive on a schedule, while in standby).


Yes indeed - it needs to get addressed.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

been wondering, and may be completely wrong, if there was a ext2/3 to ext4 file conversion being done on the fly. iirc many had the noise for a short time then it leveled off, just pondering out loud here 
if I get ambitious (unlikely but..) I may yank one to see what extension is in use now.


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## nikwax (Jan 1, 2007)

Alabamatechguy said:


> Any computer type device with a hard drive will make such noises.


I have to disagree. This is NOT, repeat, NOT normal drive noise by any stretch of the imagination. If you're not experiencing it, fine, but please don't trivialize the issue here.


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## bwaldron (Oct 24, 2005)

nikwax said:


> I have to disagree. This is NOT, repeat, NOT normal drive noise by any stretch of the imagination. If you're not experiencing it, fine, but please don't trivialize the issue here.


Definitional issues, I guess. It's "normal" drive noise (i.e., not a whining, squealing, or other indication of a dying drive) in the sense of intense head seeking activity-- activity which has not been typical in 3+ years with the HR20 or any prior DVR I have owned, going back to the first ReplayTV. Normal drive reading and writing noise has never been an issue with our DVRs.

Speaking for our household, it's certainly non-trivial noise. What we might accept occasionally from a PC doing heavy-duty database work in an office environment is different from what is an acceptable noise level for an A/V component in a living room, den, or --especially-- a bedroom. It's very intrusive to listen to it in an otherwise quiet room while doing something other than watching TV, or when one of the noise bursts happens during a quieter passage in a TV show. I've pretty much solved the living room noise issue by redesigning our A/V system and moving the DVR to a closed cabinet -- but I shouldn't really have had to do that, and there are temperature/cooling concerns that I had to address in doing so.

It's a challenge to the developers to continue to push the envelope in terms of features and performance on this aging (in tech years) platform. They've done a good job at that, IMHO. However, the recent drive activity bursts appear to be a byproduct, and the noise is affecting an apparently significant minority of customers. They need to keep tuning their code to avoid such disruptions as much as is realistically possible. I would almost certainly bet that they are doing so.

Probably my last words on the subject


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

I ran the surface test last night and expected it to go for hours (HR21-100). Mine completed in about 30 minutes, maybe slightly less with a status of "Successful". I was surprised it went so quick, and therefore dubious it actually worked. I immediately initiated a second surface scan and it almost immediately failed, with a 0x77 I believe. That sounded more like it! :scratchin

Since then, I still get A/V freezes and I am unable to isolate the cause of my frequent (twice or more daily) uncommanded reboots. Starting to get really frustrated.

By the way, I found loose connections on the BBCs, tightened them up and hoped to see no more reboots (alas no). The one place I have yet to go is up to the dish itself to check those connections. I know, it's on my to-do list.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

mesaboy2 said:


> Since then, I still get A/V freezes and I am unable to isolate the cause of my frequent (twice or more daily) uncommanded reboots. Starting to get really frustrated.


Couple of things, what kind of dish do you have? 5-LNB? If so, what is the signal strength on the 119° sat? Check both Tuner #1 and Tuner #1. If you are rebooting daily, you may have other issues not related to your HDD.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

nikwax said:


> I have to disagree. This is NOT, repeat, NOT normal drive noise by any stretch of the imagination. If you're not experiencing it, fine, but please don't trivialize the issue here.


I agree. I used to work in tech support and have replaced multiple hard drives on work and personal pc's so I know what hard drives should sound like. This sound is definitely not the normal sound it should be making.

I noticed it when the intro of dlb. My last Hr20 started "struggling" 2 weeks ago. Definitely a defect.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> Couple of things, what kind of dish do you have? 5-LNB? If so, what is the signal strength on the 119° sat? Check both Tuner #1 and Tuner #1. If you are rebooting daily, you may have other issues not related to your HDD.


Yes, I have the Slimline-5. HR21-100 is running 0x0368 since 11/3. I took pics of signal strengths of all sats on initial install 18 months ago--one of the smarter things I've done--and compared with readings I took last night. All xponders were same or stronger now when compared with then. I can post specifics for 119 if you don't trust me, I won't take it personally. 

I know I'm posting in a thread relating to noises, but since many have reported the noise concurrently with A/V freezes, which I also have, this seems to me to be the best place to post. In my case, I do not note any noise (it is in an enclosed entertainment center--with a temp 119 or so, before you ask), but I did note the A/V freezes began around the same time as the spurious reboots. And I've noted a small group of others also apparently experiencing the reboots. FWIW.


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## andy A (Sep 14, 2006)

I had posted earlier in this thread and voted yes and was going to edit that post about our new issues, but decided against it. Anyhowwwww..................

The hard drive in our HR20-700 bit the dust this morning. Got home from work and the misses turned the tv on and all we were getting was "no signal". Tried red button reset, and that was a no go. The box would not respond to any commands either from the front panel or remote. Finally pulled the plug, waited a bit and plugged it back in and it booted back up. Everything was fine for about an hour then the picture just......froze, and again the box would not respond to any commands either from the front panel or remote. Pulled the plug again and this time it would not pass the self check, code 14-147 is what it pulled up if I remember correctly. Tried multiple times rebooting, always with the same outcome. I did not want the hassle of trying to get a replacement HR due to the way Dtv has inadvertently locked people back into a commitment when replacing defective receivers, so I just bought another HD, beside I kind of like our old HR20-700 and the larger drive is a definite plus. 

So far I am not hearing the thrashing with the new drive like I was experiencing with the old seagate drive. Kind of reminded me of the sounds my old 74gb raptors would make when they were working hard. Over the course of the last 2 weeks the drive was starting to make a random chirping/squeaking noise in addition to the thrashing noise. The chirping noise in my experience is not a good sign and a dead drive kind of proved that assumption.

What I can say is that up until 034C our HR20-700 was quiet, 3+yrs. After 034C the random loud thrashing started, 368 diminished the thrashing but it was still there and noticeable. Both updates also led to audio and video stuttering when the drive was thrashing.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

I also answered "no" to hard drive noise. However the unit is slid in to an open cabinet above our Blu-Ray player and with two kids I may not notice it being as loud as others discuss here. 

However I have had terrible performance from the unit since the most recent software upgrade. Anything other than live TV is unwatchable (random reboots, stutters, drop outs, lockups, etc.) I have to believe that the software upgrade is a major culprit. Having said that I have lodged my "issue" with DTV and looked through this site for help. 

I have conducted multiple resets (red button, remote, plug pull), no luck. I just ran (or am running) the surface check on the internal drive now (8 hours and counting and only 25% done) - probably means dead/"ceased to be" drive? I will let it run while I am at work and see if it will complete the check. DTV suggests that I do a system reset (wipe everything) if the surface check doesn't work (which, by the way, DTV Tech. Support rep said surface check is troubleshooting feature that is not available until future software upgrades!? - I mentioned to them the surface check test discussed here and was met with silence). 

I hope the surface check will fix the problems. I am wary of a system reset wipe. I may get an external drive to see if that works. Any other suggestions would be helpful. Thanks.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I would NOT RESET EVERYTHING as it never works except to get rid of stuff you want to watch. Wait until the next NR download and see if that fixes your problem. If not then replace the internal drive which is very easy to do. Or go with an eSATA drive.

Do Not Reset Everything as that is just a desperate attempt to correct either a software problem or a hardware problem such as a failing hard drive but I have never seen it work yet.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

I started the surface scan last night, then went to bed. This morning when I turned on the TV I expected to see the results, but instead the DVR must have booted up completely and was tuned to a channel. Is that normal procedure? I had thought it would stay on the diagnostics screen waiting for user input to continue.

If this is normal, how do you find out whether the scan found any errors (besides sitting in front of the TV for a few hours watching while it scans)?


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> I started the surface scan last night, then went to bed. This morning when I turned on the TV I expected to see the results, but instead the DVR must have booted up completely and was tuned to a channel. Is that normal procedure? I had thought it would stay on the diagnostics screen waiting for user input to continue.
> 
> If this is normal, how do you find out whether the scan found any errors (besides sitting in front of the TV for a few hours watching while it scans)?


Yes, it's normal for it to reboot on it's own after a period of no activity after a successful test completion. I think (but could be wrong) that if errors are found, it will stay on that screen.

Now, while I don't think bad hard drives are the cause of the trashing problem, I do wonder if the trashing is causing drives to go bad prematurely. DirecTV NEEDS to fix this issue.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> Yes, it's normal for it to reboot on it's own after a period of no activity after a successful test completion. I think (but could be wrong) that if errors are found, it will stay on that screen.
> 
> Now, while I don't think bad hard drives are the cause of the trashing problem, *I do wonder if the trashing is causing drives to go bad prematurely*. DirecTV NEEDS to fix this issue.


"Trashing"?

Fragmentation maybe...but trashing? 

Yes - regardless - you are correct the issue needs to be addressed.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

AntonyB said:


> I started the surface scan last night, then went to bed. This morning when I turned on the TV I expected to see the results, but instead the DVR must have booted up completely and was tuned to a channel. Is that normal procedure? I had thought it would stay on the diagnostics screen waiting for user input to continue.
> 
> If this is normal, how do you find out whether the scan found any errors (besides sitting in front of the TV for a few hours watching while it scans)?


See this post by veryoldschool.

"Since to get into the menu, you stop the "normal booting", after it completes the test(s) it goes back to "square one" and boots over again.
Since I only have the stock drive(s) I'm around for the end of the tests.
"I'd think" if you got an error code [I never have] that the screen wouldn't change and therefore stay there to notify you of the error."

"Maybe I should clarify.

After the tests were completed, I had the menu up and exiting the menu was when the rebooting happened. This was much like going into the BIOS of a PC.
Now maybe the receivers will time out after "X time" on the screen, just like other menus do/will.
The long tests take ≈ 90 mins for a stock [300 GB] drive, so maybe you would need to extrapolate this for your larger drive and figure out how long it will take and then come back to view the screen.
I've sure it would be "nice" if it would simply stay on the results screen, but then wouldn't the next complaint be burn-in?"


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> "Trashing"?
> 
> Fragmentation maybe...but trashing?
> 
> Yes - regardless - you are correct the issue needs to be addressed.


I think he meant thrashing.

BTW, after a surface scan, a practically empty play list (90% free), and 24 hrs of hard drive silence, the "thrashing" has returned. I also had 1 brief freeze during a 30sec slip. No freezes during playback yet, but I'm not very hopeful


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I think he meant thrashing.
> 
> BTW, after a surface scan, a practically empty play list (90% free), and 24 hrs of hard drive silence, the "thrashing" has returned. I also had 1 brief freeze during a 30sec slip. No freezes during playback yet, but I'm not very hopeful


Sorry to hear the surface scan did not resolve your issue longer than that.

...which would seem to lead one down a path that was poo-pooed by a select few before...that there are some HR20 units that have aged to the point that they are perhaps experiencing hard drive deterioration and eventual failure.

I have seen PCs that are on 24X7 like HD DVRs...and watched hard disks fail in a 3 year timeframe in those too...so that's why I would not be surprised. Hard disks don't last forever.

That's not to say its the case for every person having drive noise, but certainly some.

The only thing I would do in that situation is to test the same unit with an eSata external drive, and see if the problem persists. If it does not show up with the new drive, it would seem further evidence that the internal drive is on its way bye-bye.

Regardless of the cause...the one thing most everyone here agrees upon is that a solution needs to be found.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> "Trashing"?
> 
> Fragmentation maybe...but trashing?


Thrashing. Excuse my typo, I thought it was obvious. 



hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...which would seem to lead one down a path that was poo-pooed by a select few before...that there are some HR20 units that have aged to the point that they are perhaps experiencing hard drive deterioration and eventual failure.


Do people keep missing the posts where folks are putting in brand new eSATA drives and having the same issue? 

As I've mentioned before I've been in the IT field for many years and we have MANY drives that have been running 24/7 for 10+ years without 'deteriorating'. And these drives are used for data-bases and other high access use. When a drive fails, it fails, it doesn't tell the software to start doing periodic massive random read/writes.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> Do people keep missing the posts where folks are putting in brand new eSATA drives and having the same issue?


Before or after the problem was reported? If its before...then that simply means that despite the physical location of the drive...the problem exists. If its after the problem started (and an eSata setup was introduced into the environment), then the drive itself is likely NOT the real source of the problem. I recall a number of posts for the first situation but none for the second.


> As I've mentioned before I've been in the IT field for many years and we have MANY drives that have been running 24/7 for 10+ years without 'deteriorating'. And these drives are used for data-bases and other high access use.


I've also been in the PC/network/software space for over 25 years...and can testify hundreds of cases of an entirely different experience...where simple routine wear and tear use of hard drives from 24X7 operation caused them first to make noises (as a "awarning sign", and then days, weeks, or months later, they fail. Checkmate.

There is consensus that there is a problem with hard drive noise for *some* users on *mostly* the HR20 models, and that *sometimes* a surface test cycle corrects the symptoms.

We all seem to agree on those things.

We also all seem to agree that a solution is needed.

Beyond that, diagnostics and how they are done are where there are varied approaches and results.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

Is there a way yet to add an esata and still keep the current shows/season passes in tact? If adding an esata would fix the problem (which I doubt) I might look into adding one of those.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Before or after the problem was reported?


Read the whole thread.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I've also been in the PC/network/software space for over 25 years...and can testify hundreds of cases of an entirely different experience...where simple routine wear and tear use of hard drives from 24X7 operation caused them first to make noises (as a "awarning sign", and then days, weeks, or months later, they fail. Checkmate.


I think some are misinterpreting the noise that people are talking about. Again, as I mentioned above, there is a difference between a drive that is failing and doing re-seeks on the bad spot and this. A bad or failing drive is often accompanied by clicking or other repetative noises. This is actual disk activity. Something is being written/read in such a manner that it is causing excessive head seeking. If you don't have the issue or have not seen/heard it first hand then you can not even speculate that it's a bad drive.

And once again I have nearly new eSATA drives on all of my HR20s, ALL doing the EXACT same thing and all starting right after a particular update. THE DRIVES ARE NOT BAD. At least they aren't yet. However, at the rate the HRs are working them over, I do wonder how long they will last.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> Read the whole thread.



Been there, done that.

Again...no signs of posts by users where an eSata was deployed *after the problem * and the noise issue was still reported as remaining *using the new drive *environment....unless you can point one out.

If I would have those symptoms, that would have been one of my first tests to see if the problem moved to the new drive.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

POPPO, I think you must have P!SSED off someone at Directv!!! :lol:

Mine are all Quiet as a Mouse. I don't even know they are there and I have 6 DVRs.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

poppo said:


> ... there is a difference between a drive that is failing and doing re-seeks on the bad spot and this. A bad or failing drive is often accompanied by clicking or other repetative noises. This is actual disk activity. Something is being written/read in such a manner that it is causing excessive head seeking. If you don't have the issue or have not seen/heard it first hand then you can not even speculate that it's a bad drive.


Well said. This definitely bears repeating. The symptoms are clearly not re-seeks due to bad spots, indicating hardware failure. It's simply a lot of read/write activity on a perfectly good drive. It comes in bursts periodically. The same activity on a pc would be considered normal. The issue is this activity is interrupting playback at times, causing the video to freeze. The noise annoys some, but my main concern is it's affect on playback.

I personally don't care if the drive chatters all day long, but the software needs to insure it NEVER interferes with playback. Whatever it's doing must be relegated to a lower priority background task. Continuing to blame the hardware without evidence (why did my scan PASS if my drive is bad?) is just letting the developer's off the hook for some poorly written code introduced a few rev's back. We need to keep the pressure on and get this fixed.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> Well said. This definitely bears repeating. The symptoms are *clearly* not re-seeks due to bad spots, indicating hardware failure. It's simply a lot of read/write activity on a perfectly good drive. It comes in bursts periodically. The same activity on a pc would be considered normal.


Not all the of reported symptoms in this thread fall within those descriptions, and with 7 pages of posts containing various cases...not so sure they are in fact "clearly not re-seeks". Some people have indicated hard drive sounds so loud they could "hear it in another room" - hardly indicative of a "perfectly good drive".

This does not appear to be a simple/single symptom issue, nor a simple/single solution answer either.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not all the of reported symptoms in this thread fall within those descriptions, and with 7 pages of posts containing various cases...not so sure they are in fact "clearly not re-seeks". Some people have indicated hard drive sounds so loud they could "hear it in another room" - hardly indicative of a "perfectly good drive".
> .


But all of these complaints from users started with 034C, and continued with 0368. Whether our hard drives are or are not "perfectly good", they were perfectly good enough to operate (a) without making an obnoxious noise and/or (b) without stuttering the playback of recordings, prior to that software update.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

I'm still not convinced it is a fragmentation problem. As I mentioned in the previous thread (or, possibly early this thread), I'm convinced it is a guide data indexing issue. We all know that guide data trickles into the unit every minute of every day. If your receiver has been on for more than 24 hours, most of that data is redundant and probably tossed away (since the unit already has guide data). Every few hours, the unit indexes the guide data for searching and adding any new guide data that has come in to the index. My belief is that the unit's processor or hard drive is being taxed during that indexing. That is the noise we hear and that could explain the stutter we see from time to time.

The loud thrashing sound I hear is almost identical to the sound the hard drive makes when it is loading guide data after a reboot (when the screen goes from 1% to 90% very quickly). That's why I think guide data and/or guide data indexing is somehow related to the problem.

My $0.02 worth...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Well, it could be that they made a change to the Guide Data Process which is not working well at all but then why wouldn't that change affect every DVR???

That is what is so confusing!!! 95% of the DVRs are functioning quietly and flawlessly as mine are but some are exhibiting this noisey behavior. If the Guide Data Process changed but was written to a bad sector then that could explain why there is an inordinate amount of disk activity. Who knows???


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Not all the of reported symptoms in this thread fall within those descriptions, and with 7 pages of posts containing various cases...not so sure they are in fact "clearly not re-seeks". Some people have indicated hard drive sounds so loud they could "hear it in another room" - hardly indicative of a "perfectly good drive".
> 
> This does not appear to be a simple/single symptom issue, nor a simple/single solution answer either.


You said you are not having the problem so you don't even have any first hand knowledge of what we are talking about. I've already stated that it's NOT re-seeks and so have most others. Sure there may be a random case in here of a bad drive, but the majority of the people are reporting pretty much the same thing.

As for the person that can hear it in the next room, maybe they have good hearing. Maybe the next room is not that far. If I have the TV turned off, I can hear mine in the dining room (adjacent to the living room). Technically it's another room. And my drive is perfectly fine. It's the software running amok on it that is not.

IMO you are not offering any help, only somehow trying to prove that just because YOU are not having the problem, we all have faulty hardware. I almost hope the next update hits all of your units with this issue so we can hear what your excuse will be.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

richierich said:


> Well, it could be that they made a change to the Guide Data Process which is not working well at all but then why wouldn't that change affect every DVR???
> 
> That is what is so confusing!!! 95% of the DVRs are functioning quietly and flawlessly as mine are but some are exhibiting this noisey behavior. If the Guide Data Process changed but was written to a bad sector then that could explain why there is an inordinate amount of disk activity. Who knows???


Again, where are you coming up with 95% functioning quietly and flawlessly?  The poll I'm looking at doesn't show that.

And for the last time, I don't see what is so confusing. All it takes is one setting that could be behind the problem. One bad line of code somewhere that only runs when that particular option or configuration is used. I used the A-Z sort as an example earlier. If there was a bug in that code, only people who have things sorted A-Z would have a problem. Maybe it's only people who use static IPs. It could be lots of things that would not affect everyone. I don't understand why people think all the DVRs are 'equal' just because they are running the same SW version.

And lets give it a rest on the bad sector theory. Enough of us have run the full HD diagnostics and/or have it happening to multiple machines. What, we all just happen to have bad sectors in the guide data area that also goes undetected during the multi-hour test? What are the odds of that?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> You said you are not having the problem so *you don't even have any first hand knowledge *of what we are talking about.


I haven't fallen off a cliff either, but I bet it hurts. 

Like you, I have plenty of PC, networking, and hard drive experience.

What you stated as symptoms and likely causes may indeed be on target at your location - but like you yourself stated, however, no one can speak for everyone else.



> ...but the *majority of the people are reporting pretty much the same thing*.


Have you actually read through this thread since its inception..because your statement is simply not true.

As for your repeated references to the illustrious poll - yes 164 out of several million users have reported an issue - no denying that, nor does that mean the issues aren't real. There is a indeed problem for some HD DVR users - so how about trying to help them.

That's at least what some of us are trying to do. I suspect others would appreciate it.

Lets get back on track here and work to help folks with varying degrees and symptoms of a problem.

*Game* over.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

I have continued my surface check now 23 hours @75% and counting (really) - for a drive that is now loud and has caused unwatchable results when not watching in live TV (recorded shows, rewinding a live show etc causing the typical stuttering, drop outs, reboots and lock ups. 

Should I even bother continuing the surface check? Is this a result of the software update or what? Should I get an external drive? 

By the way I have an R21-700 and about 1 3/4 years old.


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## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Don't let hdtvfan0001 get you down. 

In his magical and special world, all HR2x DVRs are consistently "above average," and no software bugs ever interfere with our continuing enjoyment of DirecTV programming.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Here are the *actual words *of posters who voted and said that they *DID* have a loud noise problem. Of note -- there is a *wide range *of symptoms and sounds.

As stated before...the source of the problem, as well as it's solution is anything but "clear".

(The last post on this list is of particular interest.)



RAD said:


> While I voted no I'd qualify it by saying my HR20-700 sounds like a washing machine





RF_Eng said:


> Loud enough that I have to unplug the Bedroom HR20 at night else it wakes me up around 5 AM





rich584 said:


> I have three owned 20-700s. The last one I got was noisy as hell and I decided to take it apart and see what the problem was. First thing I noticed after unhooking the wires and picking it up was something rolling around inside. Found that one of the phillips head screws that are used to hold the HDD onto the bracket had fallen out and the other two screws were about to fall out too.





Bluto17 said:


> HR20-700. In the bedroom. It wakes me up at night. I ran a hard drive diagnostic yesterday (SMART?), and it failed. I'm going to call and request a replacement.





hunter65 said:


> The only noise I hear is a 1/2 second "whine" before it freezes up. HR21-700





Bluto17 said:


> 4:50am CDT today on my bedroom DVR. 10 straight minutes of grinding.





Dan B said:


> My HR20-700 is loud to the point that it seriously interferes with my ability to enjoy watching movies/games/etc. (and I like to listen to movies loud) It is not just an increase in activity, it is much louder. On a daily basis, I wish I could just unplug the DVR to get rid of the noise. I am sometimes leaving the room to go read instead of putting up with the noise of the DVR. It is that bad.





andunn27 said:


> I have terrible hard drive noise coming from my DVR and it started after the last 2 updates.





VaJim said:


> I have 2 HR-21-700. One of them sounds like a power generator at times. Hummmmmmmm.:eek2:





Hutchinshouse said:


> Ok, this morning the HR20-700 in my bedroom was loud. Sounded like a little jackhammer.





clay_w said:


> To contrast, I have my pc tower a few feet from my couch and it is pretty much always on and I can't hear it but I can hear my HR20 hard drive thrashing from about 15 feet away and it is in an enclosed entertainment unit.





sonofjay said:


> Hard drive is crazy loud. Started with the update in Sept and has been veeeeeeery annoying since.





OlderNDirt said:


> Unbearably loud.
> I have 2 HR20-700's, one I sit within 10' of and is quiet. The other is very intrusively loud from 15' - 20'. It sits on a shelf by itself and I have tried moving it around to no avail.





andy A said:


> I had posted earlier in this thread and voted yes and was going to edit that post about our new issues, but decided against it. Anyhowwwww..................
> The hard drive in our HR20-700 bit the dust this morning. ... I just bought another HD, beside I kind of like our old HR20-700 and the larger drive is a definite plus. So far I am not hearing the thrashing with the new drive like I was experiencing with the old seagate drive.


----------



## Nicholsen (Aug 18, 2007)

Is the point of your post that the problem is both serious and widespread?

For what it's worth, most people interpret *bold*, ALL CAPS and *BOLD ALL CAPS* to be forms of internet "yelling," which is fundamentally just a form of bullying. It would be greatly appreciated if you would just post in regular fonts.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

I can hear my hdd grinding at times. It's not pleasant.
HR21-700


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

Well, my HR21 is having a particularly bad night. Came home to a noticeable stutter effect on all channels, not just the periodic A/V freeze but a constant jitter in everything I watch :nono:. A recorded program for the little one froze twice, and the thing has rebooted itself twice in the last 30 minutes. I guess I didn't really care about the last 8 minutes of the last 'V' for 4 months or the wife didn't care about the DWTS finale :grrr:. I am now convinced the software is the problem as I read too many posts from others with a suspiciously similar set of symptoms. D* really blew it :barf: with this one. :bang


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Nicholsen said:


> Is the point of your post that the problem is both serious and widespread?
> 
> For what it's worth, most people interpret *bold*, ALL CAPS and *BOLD ALL CAPS* to be forms of internet "yelling," which is fundamentally just a form of bullying.


My point (and supporting documentaton) is about the wide range of symptoms, as is clearly stated in the post.

Bold is used to highlight specific portions of content to which to respond, as opposed to croping out content out of context.


Nicholsen said:


> Don't let hdtvfan0001 get you down.
> 
> In his magical and special world, all HR2x DVRs are consistently "above average," and no software bugs ever interfere with our continuing enjoyment of DirecTV programming.


...and your post would be considered a personal insult attack, not to mention a total falsehood. You are helping no one.

As stated in my PM to you, please cease this behavior.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mesaboy2 said:


> Well, my HR21 is having a particularly bad night. Came home to a noticeable stutter effect on all channels, not just the periodic A/V freeze but a constant jitter in everything I watch :nono:. A recorded program for the little one froze twice, and the thing has rebooted itself twice in the last 30 minutes. I guess I didn't really care about the last 8 minutes of the last 'V' for 4 months or the wife didn't care about the DWTS finale :grrr:. I am now convinced the software is the problem as I read too many posts from others with a suspiciously similar set of symptoms. D* really blew it :barf: with this one. :bang


A question:

Is there any synchronization to the timing of the noise and the erratic video behavior (happening at the exact same time in your opinion)?

[Surely the reboots have to be frustrating]

Thanks in advance for your information.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

mx6bfast said:


> Is there a way yet to add an esata and still keep the current shows/season passes in tact? If adding an esata would fix the problem (which I doubt) I might look into adding one of those.


Can anyone answer this?


----------



## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A question:
> 
> Is there any synchronization to the timing of the noise and the erratic video behavior (happening at the exact same time in your opinion)?
> 
> ...


I'll answer from my experience: Definitely yes as regards the stuttering on playback. Sometimes I can almost predict when it's about to happen. 2 to 3 second of frenetic activity and probably no issue; much longer than that, and there's a good chance it will stutter. I believe I have stated this in my posts before.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> Can anyone answer this?


iirc all season passes need to be readded.
you basically start with a fresh system.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> Can anyone answer this?


$$ I haven't used them but I am sure if you do a search you will find weaknees.com which will back up all you shows/preferences for a fee with a few day turn around


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> A question:
> 
> Is there any synchronization to the timing of the noise and the erratic video behavior (happening at the exact same time in your opinion)?
> 
> ...


That's the one symptom I _don't_ get: excessive drive noise. My setup is in an enclosed space and my hearing isn't the best anyway, so that is possibly why I don't experience it. Even with my ear to the front of the box, I got nothin'.

Hey, if nothing else I feel better for venting a bit. :soapbox:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

AntonyB said:


> I'll answer from my experience: Definitely yes as regards the stuttering on playback. Sometimes I can almost predict when it's about to happen. 2 to 3 second of frenetic activity and probably no issue; much longer than that, and there's a good chance it will stutter.


Thank you for your added information.

One would then assume that the hard drive itself or data fragmentation conditions on it are responsible for both the noise and stuttering at your location...but that's only reasonable speculation.

Since a number of posters such as you shared this kind of data, hopefully DirecTV has collected enough information and sampling to determine a solution. Folks deserve that.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

This was originally posted by mdavej >>Well said. This definitely bears repeating. The symptoms are clearly not re-seeks due to bad spots, indicating hardware failure. It's simply a lot of read/write activity on a perfectly good drive. It comes in bursts periodically. The same activity on a pc would be considered normal. The issue is this activity is interrupting playback at times, causing the video to freeze. The noise annoys some, but my main concern is it's affect on playback. 

I personally don't care if the drive chatters all day long, but the software needs to insure it NEVER interferes with playback. Whatever it's doing must be relegated to a lower priority background task. Continuing to blame the hardware without evidence (why did my scan PASS if my drive is bad?) is just letting the developer's off the hook for some poorly written code introduced a few rev's back. We need to keep the pressure on and get this fixed.<<

This is my sentiment as well. My HR20 is no louder than it ever was, just those frequent bursts of activity that are then also noticed by the video freezes and audio dropouts on recorded playback. I believe but cannot be sure that if that "burst" of activity occurs while a recording is being made that there will be an audio/video glitch at that point during playback. Again I cannot be sure that this is not a sign of a failing hard drive but I doubt it. If it is then some official acknowledgement from DTV should be made and a replacement program implemented. If it's software as I believe it is in my case then there should be an update that corrects this and hopefully soon.

If I were having the issues that some are reporting the "loud thrashing, whining, washing machine sounding" hard drive I think I would chalk that up to a failing hard drive and do whatever I could to get a replacement. But again if that's what's going on there should be a replacement program initiated.


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## MartyS (Dec 29, 2006)

mx6bfast said:


> Is there a way yet to add an esata and still keep the current shows/season passes in tact? If adding an esata would fix the problem (which I doubt) I might look into adding one of those.





mx6bfast said:


> Can anyone answer this?


Seems like that got lost in the shuffle, so I'll try to answer to the best of my ability, but I don't have an eSata drive, and am only basing this answer on what I've read out here.

When you connect an eSata drive to an HR unit it REPLACES the internal drive. I know for sure that any shows recorded on the internal drive will not show up in the list when an eSata is attached. If the eSata is removed, I _believe_ that the original shows recorded on the internal drive will be there.

I also suspect that because the internal drive is somewhat disabled then any SL's would also need to be re-entered. Not completely sure about that, but I suspect that that might be the case.

Suggestion: if you do add an eSata, be sure to make a list of all your SL's so that if you do need to re-add them, you can do so easily and not have to work from memory.


----------



## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Nicholsen said:


> Is the point of your post that the problem is both serious and widespread?
> 
> For what it's worth, most people interpret *bold*, ALL CAPS and *BOLD ALL CAPS* to be forms of internet "yelling," which is fundamentally just a form of bullying. It would be greatly appreciated if you would just post in regular fonts.


*Bold* has never been considered a form of internet yelling, it has always meant *emphasis*...


----------



## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There is a indeed problem for some HD DVR users - so how about trying to help them.
> 
> That's at least what some of us are trying to do.


That is not what you are trying to do. You have your mind made up that it's a bad drive and that is that. Nearly ever post you make, you suggest the drive is failing. How is that helping, when people have already stated that they have run the diagnostics, or know the drive is good, or are have it happening to several machines at the same time?



hdtvfan0001 said:


> My point (and supporting documentaton) is about the wide range of symptoms, as is clearly stated in the post.


While there may be different terms used to descibe the noise, the core issue is the same

1. The unit used to be quiet
2. The unit got an uptdate
3. The unit is now a lot noisier

It does not take a rocket scientist to connect the dots. Which is more likely, a software update has a bug that is affecting a significant number of people, or a significant number of people all had their hard drives (even new ones) go bad at the exact same instant in time?

And I'll say it again, I would not be surprised to see some drives start to actually fail from the excessive thrashing. But that will be a result of the problem, not the cause.



hdtvfan0001 said:


> I haven't fallen off a cliff either, but I bet it hurts.


Maybe so, but the fact remains that you know nothing about this issue because by your own admission you don't have the problem, and have zero first hand experience of it. So any opinions you may offer are based on pure speculation, guessing, and to trying and discredit anyone who believes there is an issue with the update(s).


----------



## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

MartyS said:


> I also suspect that because the internal drive is somewhat disabled then any SL's would also need to be re-entered. Not completely sure about that, but I suspect that that might be the case.


Correct. Also any favorites have to be set also.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

1kyardstare said:


> I have continued my surface check now 23 hours @75% and counting (really) - for a drive that is now loud and has caused unwatchable results when not watching in live TV (recorded shows, rewinding a live show etc causing the typical stuttering, drop outs, reboots and lock ups.
> 
> Should I even bother continuing the surface check? Is this a result of the software update or what? Should I get an external drive?


Of course it's a product of the software updates. That DLB NR caused all these issues and the next one did little to help. Ruined two eSATAs of mine right away. Admittedly, one of them was not the best eSATA I could have bought and I was amazed that it lasted as long as it did, but the other one was a brand new WD EADS 1.5 in an Antec MX-1 and had exactly the same problem as the other one. That one should not have gone south. I ran the surface checks on both of them and it was a waste of time.

That 21-700 is a good DVR. Sounds like it's shot, tho. I'd try a cheap eSATA and see what happens. Can't hurt.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Here are the *actual words *of posters who voted and said that they *DID* have a loud noise problem. Of note -- there is a *wide range *of symptoms and sounds.
> 
> As stated before...the source of the problem, as well as it's solution is anything but "clear".
> 
> (The last post on this list is of particular interest.)


I really don't know why you included my post in your post. My problem was purely mechanical and I fixed it myself. It is running silently as are all my other nine HRs. Mine had nothing to do with the DLB NR.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Nicholsen said:


> Is the point of your post that the problem is both serious and widespread?
> 
> For what it's worth, most people interpret *bold*, ALL CAPS and *BOLD ALL CAPS* to be forms of internet "yelling," which is fundamentally just a form of bullying. It would be greatly appreciated if you would just post in regular fonts.


Typing in something in *BOLD* or using CAPS is just a way of emphasizing certain words so that the person reading the post places more emphasis or attention to those words.

Not Intended as Yelling or Bullying at all when I do it and I do it all the time!!! Along with Mulitple Exclamation Points or Question Marks depending on the post.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> That is not what you are trying to do.


As you do nothing but mis-state what others say, and also simply want to argue - welcome to my Ignore list.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> Can anyone answer this?


Yes, you can use GPARTED to copy all data from one drive to another!!!

See this Post!!! http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=167440&page=3

You may want to start on Page 1 and Read the entire thread to understand how to hook up the drives. etc. and then do the GPARTED COPY.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> Typing in something in *BOLD* or using CAPS is just a way of emphasizing certain words so that the person reading the post places more emphasis or attention to those words.
> 
> Not Intended as Yelling or Bullying at all when I do it and I do it all the time!!! Along with Mulitple Exclamation Points or Question Marks depending on the post.


Seems like yelling to me. Took me a long time to get used to your style of writing. Always felt I was getting yelled at. *YOU BRUTE!!!*. :lol:

See what I mean?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Aware of that Rich.
> 
> There was another poster who basically was attempting to lump together all noises and experiences under one simple description and also one simple source of the problem.
> 
> Yours was indeed a "colorful" one included in a long list, simply to be on of many examples whereby all noises "are not created equal". I had to giggle a bit when I read it, because I recall finding almost the same situation a few years back in one of my HR20's.


OK. Mine was NAFTA related. Thanx again to Bubba.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Seems like yelling to me. Took me a long time to get used to your style of writing. Always felt I was getting yelled at. *YOU BRUTE!!!*. :lol:
> 
> Rich


That is because you only knew of ONE WAY to TAKE IT!!! There is another Path To Enlightenment and Now You Have Found It!!! :hurah:

P.S. Don't Be So Sensitive, you BUFFOON!!! :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

CCarncross said:


> *Bold* has never been considered a form of INTERNET yelling, it has always meant *emphasis*...





richierich said:


> Typing in something in *BOLD* or using CAPS is just a way of emphasizing certain words so that the person reading the post places more emphasis or attention to those words.


Just as an added reference point - this "technique" is actually included as an acceptable practice in an e-mail etiquette book that our company provides to all employees, specifically citing that it is used to emphasize certain words within a long or detailed statement.

*THIS IS YELLING...!!!!*

Homey don't play that. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> That is because you only knew of ONE WAY to TAKE IT!!! There is another Path To Enlightenment and Now You Have Found It!!! :hurah:
> 
> P.S. Don't Be So Sensitive, you BUFFOON!!! :lol:


Aw, we're gonna get yelled at. 

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I really don't know why you included my post in your post. My problem was purely mechanical and I fixed it myself. It is running silently as are all my other nine HRs. Mine had nothing to do with the DLB NR.
> 
> Rich





rich584 said:


> OK. Mine was NAFTA related. Thanx again to Bubba.
> 
> Rich


Caught your drift.

:lol::lol::lol:

There was another poster who basically was attempting to lump together all noises and experiences under one simple description and also one simple source of the problem.

Yours was indeed a "colorful" one included in a long list, simply to be on of many examples whereby all noises "are not created equal". I had to giggle a bit when I read it, because I recall finding almost the same situation a few years back in one of my HR20's.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

Just finished surface check. It took about 27 hours (literally)! It said that no errors were found....
Still have the same issues since the software "update". Drop outs, lock ups with remote use, can't time shift or watch recorded material (unwatchable results). 

I guess I will try an eSATA and see what happens while DTV is sending me a new unit...


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

I thought I already posted this but this thread is getting excruciatingly long to search back through.

A drive with lots of activity, doesnt need to be loud. Most of us are not denying there is definitely increased drive activity, but it still doesnt mean we can hear the drive activity. A noisy drive is very often a sign of impending failure, as generally drives are not that loud no matter whether they are spinning madly or sitting idle...a properly operating drive should barely be audible unless you put your ear to it, or at least within a few feet. 

Now Rich584 still claims that a software update ruined 2 of his drives, and one was new or virtually new. Rich584, a brand new drive can fail as well, (I'm sure you've heard of DOA electronics)in fact its more likely that a brand new drive would have issues than one that hasnt had any issues in much longer use. Thats how electronics work, higher rate of failures during the new period, tapers off, then increases after a certain age is reached...and the other drive you said you were surprised it lasted as long as it did. That one probably got bit by the activity of the reboot, might have happened had you just restarted the receiver as well, no way to be sure.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Before or after the problem was reported? If its before...then that simply means that despite the physical location of the drive...the problem exists. If its after the problem started (and an eSata setup was introduced into the environment), then the drive itself is likely NOT the real source of the problem. I recall a number of posts for the first situation but none for the second.


I recall the opposite -- eSATA drives were quiet and are now suddenly noisy. I don't have time to search through this big long thread, though.

Except for the person who's eSATA drives completely died immediately after the update. I think he had a compatibility problem.

Anyway, a surface scan will detect errors on the platters but not necessarily a problem with the head assembly. A butterfly scan will quickly determine a problem with that, but that isn't an option in D*'s diagnostic screen.

Failing hard drives will generally make a relatively *quiet * very repetitive clicking sound at around 0.5 Hz, depending on the platter rotational velocity. (Bolded for emphasis). This new sound isn't that sound. It's simply the sound of intense disk activity. There's so much activity that the playback buffer gets starved and interruptions occur. That's actually impressive -- DVR hard drives don't generally need defragmentation because the hard drive can easily keep up.

The immediate solution is to find the process that's hogging the hard drive and lower its priority. Or perhaps hold it off until 3 hours of inactivity from the remote. The long term solution is to find out why the DVR wants to simultaneously store data on opposite edges of the platter. That will require some time to investigate.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> I recall the opposite -- eSATA drives were quiet and are now suddenly noisy.


That would be helpful information, if someone can confirm that's the case, please post.

I did read 4 different posts where eSata users did not experience any problems at all, and 1 momre post where they saw the problem go away after installing an eSata on a unit that experienced loud noise with their internal drive.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> A drive with lots of activity, doesnt need to be loud. Most of us are not denying there is definitely increased drive activity, but it still doesnt mean we can hear the drive activity. A noisy drive is very often a sign of impending failure, as generally drives are not that loud no matter whether they are spinning madly or sitting idle...a properly operating drive should barely be audible unless you put your ear to it, or at least within a few feet.


If I were D*, I would allow the manufacturers to use the different model hard drives even within the same model number. Obviously between models D* would allow a different hard drive to be used. It's a way to alleviate part shortages. The downside of that is that some hard drives are simply louder than others, and D* has given up control on making all the DVRs exactly the same noise level.

During a butterfly test, the hard drive is at its loudest. It's usually above the audio level printed data sheet for it as many of the techniques used to quiet the drive become useless. You can usually hear it from across the room during this test. Since no one actually uses the hard drive like this, it's not a big deal. Unless somebody actually decides to use the drive like that.

On nice quiet drives, you can't hear them no matter what they are doing. You usually have to pay a little extra for them, but they are worth it.

I still think Rich584 suffered from a new incompatibility problem. Two drives failing simultaneously?


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2268925#post2268925

eSATA user claims his eSATA drives, which were quiet, are now noisy.

Followed by my post saying that's a useful data point (which I didn't remember until now).


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2268925#post2268925
> 
> eSATA user claims his eSATA drives, which were quiet, are now noisy.
> 
> Followed by my post saying that's a useful data point (which I didn't remember until now).


Thank you!


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> . Now Rich584 still claims that a software update ruined 2 of his drives, and one was new or virtually new. Rich584, a brand new drive can fail as well, (I'm sure you've heard of DOA electronics)in fact its more likely that a brand new drive would have issues than one that hasnt had any issues in much longer use. Thats how electronics work, higher rate of failures during the new period, tapers off, then increases after a certain age is reached...and the other drive you said you were surprised it lasted as long as it did. That one probably got bit by the activity of the reboot, might have happened had you just restarted the receiver as well, no way to be sure.


Wasn't a claim, was a fact. A $600 fact. The "brand new drive" had been running quite well for almost a month and when I turned it on after the DLB NR it was doing things that just shouldn't happen. Returned it to the folks I bought it from and they ran diagnostics on it and it was bad. Got a Seagate to replace it from them.

I've been working with electronic and electrical equipment since the early 60s, I understand how things work. I have no doubt that each eSATA was adversely affected by the DLB NR.

The older one was a Cavalry RAID 2TB unit that had been working amazingly well for over a year. I gotta admit that I was surprised that it lasted that long, mainly because it was a Cavalry, but it showed absolutely no signs of failing before the DLB NR hit. It exhibited almost exactly the same symptoms as the WD Green Caviar in the Antec enclosure. Coincidence? I really doubt that. DLB NR? No doubt in my mind. Especially when you consider the sudden onslaught of dropouts and pixellations. Plus you have to consider all the people complaining about overly noisy HDDs that came about as a result of the DLB NR.

Here's what I truly believe: If that DLB NR hadn't hit, I'd still be using both of those eSATAs and nobody would be complaining about the other issues.

Rich


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would be helpful information, if someone can confirm that's the case, please post.
> 
> I did read 4 different posts where eSata users did not experience any problems at all, and 1 momre post where they saw the problem go away after installing an eSata on a unit that experienced loud noise with their internal drive.


Once again, you have selective reading. Besides the post pointed out to you above, I specifically stated several times that I am running eSATA drives on 3 HR20s that were all quiet before the update. Sheesh....take off the blinders.:nono2:


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Rich, what model DVRs took the plunge???


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> If I were D*, I would allow the manufacturers to use the different model hard drives even within the same model number. Obviously between models D* would allow a different hard drive to be used. It's a way to alleviate part shortages. The downside of that is that some hard drives are simply louder than others, and D* has given up control on making all the DVRs exactly the same noise level.
> 
> During a butterfly test, the hard drive is at its loudest. It's usually above the audio level printed data sheet for it as many of the techniques used to quiet the drive become useless. You can usually hear it from across the room during this test. Since no one actually uses the hard drive like this, it's not a big deal. Unless somebody actually decides to use the drive like that.
> 
> ...


Been running eSATAs for almost three years and it's the first time I lost two eSATAs, I've lost several after NRs. I don't have any real idea why, other than the NR did something to them. That's why I dread NRs so much and also why I have so many HRs with large internals and large eSATAs. Everything is backed up several times and nothing was lost, not even any money. And all my drives were still nice and quiet after the NR, even the two that I had problems with.

I don't remember too many NRs where there weren't HDD failures or HR failures.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> Rich, what model DVRs took the plunge???


Weren't DVRs. One was a Cavalry RAID 2TB eSATA and the other was a WD EADS Caviar Green in an Antec enclosure. Both had been working well just before the DLB NR hit. Both were on 20-700s and it wasn't the HRs that caused the problem. They both have Seagate 1.5s on them now and are running like champs.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Weren't DVRs. One was a Cavalry RAID 2TB eSATA and the other was a WD EADS Caviar Green in an Antec enclosure. Both had been working well just before the DLB NR hit. Both were on 20-700s and it wasn't the HRs that caused the problem. They both have Seagate 1.5s on them now and are running like champs.
> 
> Rich


That's horrible!

It's also the exact reason there is a current "gap" for some form of archiving content. Even if there was an encrypted "backup" capability from the internal drive to the eSata and/or vice versa...it would at least protect your stored content. There are ways to honor the copy protection mandates as well, and also limit the resotration to a specific device, so those should not be limitations.

My guess is your loss of content was a bigger "pain" than replacing the drives themselves (although that hit the pocketbook hard too). Hate to hear that happened.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would be helpful information, if someone can confirm that's the case, please post.
> 
> I did read 4 different posts where eSata users did not experience any problems at all, and 1 momre post where they saw the problem go away after installing an eSata on a unit that experienced loud noise with their internal drive.


My problem is only with my HDDVR (HR21-700) that *does* use an eSata. Before the 34 update, quiet as can be. After it noisy enough to cause the volume to have to be turned up louder than it used to be to be able to hear conversations in recordings. It was not constant, but about 75/25 noisy to quiet ratio. After the most recent update its now about 60/40 noisy.

The noise mine makes sounds like a scandisk running full tilt.

My other HDDVR (HR20-100) with no external is as quiet as it always has been, which is comparable to what my HR21 was prior to the 34 update.


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## gedwards (Mar 11, 2009)

I voted, "yes I would describe it as loud," because disk chatter was not near as noticeable on either of my R22s until the latest NR. Now both R22 dvr units have noticeable and frequent disk chatter. Both R22s are only running one tuner, so I'm hesitant to blame it on DLB.

Oddly enough, my HR21 has both tuners activated and it isn't any noisier with this NR than it has ever been.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That's horrible!
> 
> It's also the exact reason there is a current "gap" for some form of archiving content. Even if there was an encrypted "backup" capability from the internal drive to the eSata and/or vice versa...it would at least protect your stored content. There are ways to honor the copy protection mandates as well, and also limit the resotration to a specific device, so those should not be limitations.
> 
> My guess is your loss of content was a bigger "pain" than replacing the drives themselves (although that hit the pocketbook hard too). Hate to hear that happened.


Didn't lose any programming. Right now, I've got six HRs backing each other up and unless a catastrophe occurs, like the house burning down, I'll be safe in that regard. Didn't lose any money either, but I didn't like what happened and I'm still a bit angry. Of course I'm still angry at Buck Showalter and what he did to my Yankees in the 95 playoffs. 

Rich


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Data point.

I'm fairly certain I tried this before, but I did it again just for the heck of it. I did the double reboot on all of my HR20s to force a flush of the guide cache on them. I did this early yesterday morning, and ever since, the drives have been considerably quieter. There is still a lot of drive activity, but it seems like the rampant seeking (thrashing) has subsided. Now I don't know if this is a temporary fix or not, but it would seem to indicate an issue with the guide cache. Perhaps it was corrupt or just fragmented all over the place. Perhaps some others with the issue might want to try the double reboot and see if it helps. I know a single reboot did not help because it did one when I did the hard drive tests.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

Poppo, 

That is an interesting theory. I have long suspected that the bug was memory based as it sounds just like a PC that has run out of real memory and is constantly swapping memory back and forth from pagefile on the disk. A program on a PC with a memory leak can, over time, consume all the real memory and cause "disk thrashing". Your theory is interesting as it could point a similar memory cache file problem. 

I am curious; do you have OTA locals setup on your receiver? Do you have more than 1 set of locals if you do? (i.e. in my area I have Providence, RI & Boston, MA setup in my guide so I can get guide data for both areas).

If it is guide cache related as you suspect then it shouldn't be too long before the problem returns once your guide fully repopulates.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

sonofjay said:


> I am curious; do you have OTA locals setup on your receiver? Do you have more than 1 set of locals if you do? (i.e. in my area I have Providence, RI & Boston, MA setup in my guide so I can get guide data for both areas).
> 
> If it is guide cache related as you suspect then it shouldn't be too long before the problem returns once your guide fully repopulates.


Yes, I have OTA locals, but only 1 set.

And yes, I am wondering if the problem will return in a few days when the guide fully repopulates and starts purging/adding. However, since some HR20-700 folks say they don't have the problem, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

poppo said:


> And yes, I am wondering if the problem will return in a few days when the guide fully repopulates and starts purging/adding. However, since some HR20-700 folks say they don't have the problem, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


I don't think the problem will return if it was caused by Corrupt Guide Data and what you did by rebooting twice resolved the problem.

I also wonder how many DVRs making Noise have Corrupt Guide Data!!!

I also wonder if they could be fixed by Forcing another download twice to clear or flush the Corruped Guide Data so it could be rebuilt correctly.

Perhaps this is why only a few posters are experiencing this anomaly while running on the same model DVR with the same software as others who are not experiencing this problem at all.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

richierich said:


> I don't think the problem will return if it was caused by Corrupt Guide Data and what you did by rebooting twice resolved the problem.
> 
> I also wonder how many DVRs making Noise have Corrupt Guide Data!!!
> 
> ...


IF that was the problem, then you are right, it should not return. But if there is another issue, it might. Only time will tell. I think by the end of the weekend I will have a good idea.

I was hoping some others that are having the problem can try the double reboot (reboots have to be done within 30 minutes) to see if it helps them. It would be best do do it at night after the last scheduled recording to give the guide time to repopulate and the to do list a chance to rebuild.

And yes, it could explain why everyone is not experiencing it. But again, this is just speculation at this point. I certainly don't want to declare it fixed prematurely.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Indeed it is Speculation but it makes alot of sense to me and I have seen this problem before where the Corrupted Guide Data caused DVRs to Lock Up (remember 10/06/08 when everyone was locking up and had to pull the Power Plug to Reboot the unresponsive DVR) or to experience thrashing, or hard drive noise, or sluggishness because CPU was busy waiting for the hard drive to do it's thing with corrupted guide data that it was trying to Index but couldn't).

I has this problem twice years ago with my 2 HR10-250s and this Corrupted Guide Data scenario rather nicely explains why all of a sudden my 2 Perfectly Good DVRs went South!!!

If I had just known that all I had to do was to Reboot Twice within 30 minutes to Remove the Corrupted Guide Data, I would have been happy!!!


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

guide data is easiest way to get drive breaking code in place....


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

David MacLeod said:


> guide data is easiest way to get drive breaking code in place....


Seems to be!!! Directv got that one figured out pretty good!!! :lol:


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

poppo said:


> I was hoping some others that are having the problem can try the double reboot (reboots have to be done within 30 minutes) to see if it helps them. It would be best do do it at night after the last scheduled recording to give the guide time to repopulate and the to do list a chance to rebuild.


Very interesting theory.

I "accidentally" did a double reboot last week when initiating the hard disk surface scan (missed the right place to enter diagnotics mode on the first boot, so had to restart a second time).

Since then it *seems *that the frenetic disk activity has been less, but not virtually zero (as it was before 0x034C). I have not been around the last few days, so will pay close attention in the coming week and post whether (a) the noise has really abated and (b) the hiccups on playback have been curtailed or not.

And FWIW - I have local SAT and local OTA channels in my guide data.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> I "accidentally" did a double reboot last week when initiating the hard disk surface scan (missed the right place to enter diagnotics mode on the first boot, so had to restart a second time).
> 
> Since then it *seems *that the frenetic disk activity has been less, but not virtually zero (as it was before 0x034C).


Did the unit completely boot up after the first reboot? I 'think' it has to be a compete boot (back to live TV) for the double reboot to flush the guide cache.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

poppo said:


> Did the unit completely boot up after the first reboot? I 'think' it has to be a compete boot (back to live TV) for the double reboot to flush the guide cache.


Yes, pretty sure it did. I had missed the point to enter the diags, so then I waited till I had a normal live picture and then went back into the menu to restart again. Now, whether that was sufficient, not sure. No doubt the guide was still loading at that point.

What is the theory behind needing a *double *re-boot? What does that accomplish that a single re-boot does not?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

It Flushes the Guide!!! 

We don't know the technical aspects of it but it has been recommended from time to time by moderators to clear up Corrupted Guide Data Issues,


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> Yes, pretty sure it did. I had missed the point to enter the diags, so then I waited till I had a normal live picture and then went back into the menu to restart again. Now, whether that was sufficient, not sure. No doubt the guide was still loading at that point.
> 
> What is the theory behind needing a *double *re-boot? What does that accomplish that a single re-boot does not?


Yes, 2 restarts within 30 minutes causes the guide data to be flushed resulting in a fresh start. A single restart will keep the guide data which is usually desired.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

Did hard drive surface test, SMART test (short), & file system test and no problems. Then did the reboot, waited until live video, and then rebooted immediately again. Constant disk "chatter" and noise bug still occurs. 

I have noticed it seems to go through cycles. For example the past 3 hours it has become worse and lots of "grinding" between the start and 10 minutes past the hour. (1-1:10, 2-2:10). This may just be coincidence and but I'll monitor more this weekend.


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## 1kyardstare (Jan 11, 2008)

My 1 1/2 year old, 21-700 which I reported in this forum was making louder noises, unwatchable when time shifting, watching recorded shows etc. Did all the routine troubleshooting (28 hour surface check, double reboots, red button reboots, unplugging reboot). All with no help. DTV diagnosed it as a bad hard drive (which coincidentally? happened after the software update). 

I received a new HD DVR 22-100 yesterday. So far no issues. All seems like it is working well.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

David MacLeod said:


> guide data is easiest way to get drive breaking code in place....


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

CCarncross said:


>


+1 on the Wink!!! I thought there was a Conspiracy going on!!!


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

I can now report that the "double-reboot" within 30 minutes (clearing the guide data cache) did not solve the problem. Tonight I again observed the stuttering on playback, accompanied by some frenetic hard disk activity. 

I can also say that the surface scan diagnostic did not help either, since I performed that at the same time I did the double restart.

I do believe that the frequency of the frenetic disk activity (and thus the playback stuttering) has decreased since the double restart and surface scan, whether permanently or temporarily remains to be seen.

For some reason that I can't possibly explain, the easiest way for me to reproduce the stuttering is to watch a recording of an HD show on channel 76 (HD Theater). For example, watching a recording of 2009 World Rally Championships Highlights is a good test case - it's very likely to stutter (and replaying the same segment proves that it was a transient playback problem).

In contrast, every night I record and then playback the ABC Nightly News in HD on the ABC local affiliate (SAT channel), and I have never once seen this problem during that show.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

After 4 days since I did the guide flush, mine have still remained significantly quieter. Not as quiet as they used to be, but better. There still seems to be just as much drive activity, just not as much extreme head seeking. As I mentioned above it was as if the heads were having to go from one end of the platter to the other continuously when the thrashing was taking place. So perhaps the guide data was just fragmented all over the place. I still believe this is an issue that needs to be looked into, but at least for now it does not sound like my drives are getting ready to fly apart.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> I can now report that the "double-reboot" within 30 minutes (clearing the guide data cache) did not solve the problem. Tonight I again observed the stuttering on playback, accompanied by some frenetic hard disk activity.
> 
> I can also say that the surface scan diagnostic did not help either, since I performed that at the same time I did the double restart.


Same here. Except that it is no quieter than it was before the surface scan test or the double reboot. In other words neither of these to efforts changed the drive noise and thrashing problem.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

AntonyB said:


> I can now report that the "double-reboot" within 30 minutes (clearing the guide data cache) did not solve the problem. Tonight I again observed the stuttering on playback, accompanied by some frenetic hard disk activity.
> 
> I can also say that the surface scan diagnostic did not help either, since I performed that at the same time I did the double restart.
> 
> ...


Try recording something from 281 instead...I dont use any of the channels mapped in the 70's anymore for ANY recordings...


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

CCarncross said:


> Try recording something from 281 instead...I dont use any of the channels mapped in the 70's anymore for ANY recordings...


Since that channel is MPEG-2 maybe that has something to do with it so it would be better for you to record something in a higher range that is MPEG-4 such as channel 281 which is the MPEG-4 version of HD THEATER.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

poppo said:


> After 4 days since I did the guide flush, mine have still remained significantly quieter. Not as quiet as they used to be, but better. There still seems to be just as much drive activity, just not as much extreme head seeking. As I mentioned above it was as if the heads were having to go from one end of the platter to the other continuously when the thrashing was taking place. So perhaps the guide data was just fragmented all over the place. I still believe this is an issue that needs to be looked into, but at least for now it does not sound like my drives are getting ready to fly apart.


But do you still see stuttering on playback?

BTW I pretty much agree with your description of how the hard drive "sounds" since the double reboot; however I still see some playback stuttering.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

richierich said:


> Since that channel is MPEG-2 maybe that has something to do with it so it would be better for you to record something in a higher range that is MPEG-4 such as channel 281 which is the MPEG-4 version of HD THEATER.


I've experienced it both OTA and mpeg-4 channels


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> I've experienced it both OTA and mpeg-4 channels


How about MPEG-2 stuff in the 70s???


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

Well to update my status, I am experimenting with replacing the enclosure. More specifically the fan portion of my MX1 to see if that is the cause of the increased noise. I am getting some noise from it, but I think it may be the drive as well. Antec is mailing a replacement lower tray (which includes the fan) at no cost. Should be here by the end of the week. I'll report back with what I find.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

richierich said:


> How about MPEG-2 stuff in the 70s???


I haven't tried those since they are not in my custom guides.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

richierich said:


> Since that channel is MPEG-2 maybe that has something to do with it so it would be better for you to record something in a higher range that is MPEG-4 such as channel 281 which is the MPEG-4 version of HD THEATER.


I didn't know 76 was MPEG-2.

Does it burden the DVR more to playback an MPEG-2 recording than an MPEG-4 recording? In other words, is this a possible explanation why I see the stuttering more on channel 76 recordings than on MPEG4 recordings? I know MPEG-2 uses much more data per frame so presumably it needs a faster bitrate on playback to sustain the video stream.

I will quickly add that I definitely did experience stuttering on the MPEG-4channels as well, back with 0x034C and possibly still with 0x0368. But now, after clearing the guide cache and doing the surface scan, it may be that I only see the problem with MPEG-2 material - I'm not sure though.

Even if that's true, it's not an acceptable situation, but narrowing it down further might help us and DirecTV to diagnose and resolve.


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

This fairly new "problem" as usual came with a version "upgrade" a few versions ago. The hard drive starts thrashing every 20 seconds or so, then the picture freezes while the disk is busy. The last version "upgrade" changed the problem from lousy to very annoying. (annoying only if you are trying to watch tv)


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jjohns said:


> This fairly new "problem" as usual came with a version "upgrade" a few versions ago. The hard drive starts thrashing every 20 seconds or so, then the picture freezes while the disk is busy. The last version "upgrade" changed the problem from lousy to very annoying. (annoying only if you are trying to watch tv)


You know, I have a hard time believing the numbers based on your lackluster comments. If you truly had a thrashing every 20 seconds and this thrashing resulted in a picture freeze then using the transitive property your picture would be freezing every 20 seconds.

If this were happening to me, it would neither be lousy or very annoying .. It would be completely unwatchable. Perhaps your 20 seconds number is not accurate.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> You know, I have a hard time believing the numbers based on your lackluster comments. If you truly had a thrashing every 20 seconds and this thrashing resulted in a picture freeze then using the transitive property your picture would be freezing every 20 seconds.
> 
> If this were happening to me, it would neither be lousy or very annoying .. It would be completely unwatchable. Perhaps your 20 seconds number is not accurate.


While what I have experienced has been frequent but not as bad as 20 seconds, once it starts happening you can hear the hard drive thrashing for up to 5 minutes at a time causing multiples audio/video drop outs. If I rewind the dropout isn't there.

I've done the hard drive SMART scans, and surface scans, and less than a week later the hd-dvr in our bedroom is making all kind of sounds again. So much that it is louder than my wife's snoring.


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> But do you still see stuttering on playback?


I never really had the stuttering on playback. I had it pause like it locked up for a few seconds once, but that was it. For me, it's mostly just been the noisy head seeking during those periods of extreme disk activity. And I can still hear it, it's just not as loud as before. It does seem to be getting a bit noisier again though.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

On mine, the thrashing happens every few hours or so and can last 10-15 minutes at a time. What is amazing is when it isn't thrashing, the drive is very quiet and "sounds normal." When it gets loud, it becomes very obvious. As for stuttering, I get that from time to time. As for now, when the box is recording two HD programs, I try not to watch TV and leave it alone for fear of glitching the recordings.

Update (for those who care): I received a refurb from DirecTV last week to replace my HR20 and hopefully get rid of the noise. Unfortunately, the refurb ran for about 10-12 minutes before I started having intermittent "searching for signal on tuner 2" messages. Double checked everything, unplugged the darn thing and put my HR20 back in service. I just don't trust DirecTV's quality control of refurb receivers anymore. So, I'm back with you guys waiting/praying for a software fix, patch or update.


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## kylegreen1435 (Dec 1, 2009)

my directv hr23 is very quiet my 6412 motorola dvr is extremely loud


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## gully_foyle (Jan 18, 2007)

If the noise is a solidly metallic clicking or ticking that comes in bursts (or has progressed to constant), then it may be a drive that is failing. Metallic sounds from inside a drive are generally bad news.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

Has anyone who participates in the CE's seen any reference to this bug in any of the latest CE release notes/fixes? I do not follow the CE's anymore but would jump back in to work at correcting this very annoying bug and help resolve this for the next NR.

Thanks.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

gully_foyle said:


> If the noise is a solidly metallic clicking or ticking that comes in bursts (or has progressed to constant), then it may be a drive that is failing. Metallic sounds from inside a drive are generally bad news.


This isn't that kind of sound.


sonofjay said:


> Has anyone who participates in the CE's seen any reference to this bug in any of the latest CE release notes/fixes? I do not follow the CE's anymore but would jump back in to work at correcting this very annoying bug and help resolve this for the next NR.


I'm gonna CE one of our boxes this weekend and see if it makes any difference. It might take me a few days to accurately report back though.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Folks, please no discussion of CE releases outside of the CE forum.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MattWarner said:


> Update (for those who care)


One thing I can say for a lot of us: We care about what happens after you post. Nothing worse than reading about someone's problems and then getting no feedback about what happens. Believe me, we care.



> I received a refurb from DirecTV last week to replace my HR20 and hopefully get rid of the noise. Unfortunately, the refurb ran for about 10-12 minutes before I started having intermittent "searching for signal on tuner 2" messages. Double checked everything, unplugged the darn thing and put my HR20 back in service. I just don't trust DirecTV's quality control of refurb receivers anymore. So, I'm back with you guys waiting/praying for a software fix, patch or update.


That was a very wise thing to do. Keeping the HR20 until you were sure the replacement worked, I mean. I don't believe that much, if any, refurbishing goes on at the contractor that D* uses. I think they just repackage them and send them back out. You wouldn't believe the replacements I've received. Some of them fell apart as I was removing them from the box.

I've decided not to accept any replacements unless I get exactly the model I want (yes, there is a way to do that) and have started buying my own extra HRs on eBay and Craigslist. I've bought four and have had no problems with any of them. They are all activated and ready to replace any HR that fails.

A bit expensive, but less stressful than going thru "replacement roulette". 

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

+1.


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## primetime (Mar 23, 2007)

I don't notice it on the two HR20's in the lower levels of the house but the one in my bedroom sounds like it grinding coffee all through out the night. It is the newest of the 3 HR20's I have, but I don't know off hand if it is a -100 or -700 model. 

I don't remember it being this loud initially, it is probably a year old now. Lately, at night I hear it grinding away from the other side of the room especially when it is turned off.

Edit: I should add the other two have external hard drives so that probably accounts for their quiet operation in addition to being in nosier rooms relative to the bedroom in the middle of the night. Regardless though, the grinder in the bedroom is quite loud.


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## mgroups (Apr 28, 2007)

I have switched from my eSATA to the internal drive and back a few times over the last several days. Both thrash periodically. The internal drive used to be quiet relative to the fan noise (before I got the eSATA). Now I hear the drive churning from across the room when it is in thrashing mode. I used to have to put my ear right up against the eSATA in order to check whether the HR20-100 was booting to it after a reset. I can now hear it across the room when it thrashes, though it is not as loud as the internal drive. I think that the internal drive thrashing sounds louder than the eSATA drive thrashing due to the HR box resonating and amplifying the noise. I suspect that some people with eSATA drives have the thrashing and don’t notice it.

I don’t want to lose either my HR20 or my eSATA drive that has over 700 GB of recordings because if either fails, my recordings are lost. This is not normal read/write activity. The drives are taking a beating. So I just got a new eSATA drive to use as a sacrificial drive until the problem is resolved by D*. It is grinding intermittently, the same as the others.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

primetime and mgroups - Do you also notice any stuttering of video/audio (brief pauses) on playback of your recordings, perhaps at the same time as you notice the excessive hard disk drive activity?


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## mgroups (Apr 28, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> primetime and mgroups - Do you also notice any stuttering of video/audio (brief pauses) on playback of your recordings, perhaps at the same time as you notice the excessive hard disk drive activity?


Generally not more than usual, but I may not have not been noticing if there is a correlation. I might be getting off topic here but I fairly often have those problems with mpeg2 channels and seldom with mpeg4. For example, quite often when I record HBO channel 70 I get video and/or audio glitches including short freezes. That never happens on channel 504, even with the same movie on the name night. Unfortunately, I like to have my TV speakers on at the same time as my surround system because the TV speakers fill in the midrange my receiver lacks. The TV and receiver sound are synchronized on channel 70 but slightly off with an echo effect on channel 504 and other mpeg4 movie channels. This has been noticable since D* started broadcasting mpeg4 so it is not entirely if at all caused by the recent hard drive thrashing phenomenon.

Anyway, I am off topic here and would appreciate it if anyone could direct me to a forum where this mpeg2/mpeg4/synch issue is discussed. By the way, the mpeg2 audio/vidio glitches happen with both of my eSATA drives and the internal drive but might be a bit worse with the eSATAs.


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## primetime (Mar 23, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> primetime and mgroups - Do you also notice any stuttering of video/audio (brief pauses) on playback of your recordings, perhaps at the same time as you notice the excessive hard disk drive activity?


This particular HD DVR is hooked to a standard def TV so I only watch and record the SD channels. I got the DVR for free through Mover's Connection when I moved last year so I took the HD version in anticipation of upgrading that TV.

Anyway, I haven't noticed any problems with audio or pauses or even video issues while watching the unit. I only have a single sat line running to it as well.

I notice the hard drive grinding away all night when the unit is off and I am trying to sleep. At first I thought it was due to the increased software updates we all went through but it has continued to grind away every night even in off or standby mode. I don't notice the noise when watching TV since the TV volume may cover it up but there haven't been issues thus far with playback or live TV.

I will say this unit has rebooted itself or needed me to unplug it a few times when initially turned on which is rare ,if ever, for the other two HR20's which use external hard drives. Once the unit is rebooted it runs fine.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> primetime and mgroups - Do you also notice any stuttering of video/audio (brief pauses) on playback of your recordings, perhaps at the same time as you notice the excessive hard disk drive activity?


I don't have that excessive HDD activity problem on any of my ten HRs, but I do have the audio and video dropouts and the pixellations. I gather that is what you mean by "stuttering". If it is, I don't think the two problems are related.

I use both internals and external HDDs and have removed the externals and still get the dropouts and pixellations on the internals. That's sixteen HDDs and none of them make any noise. Some of the internals that I've tried are in HR20-700s that were made in Mexico and you can't get an HR older than that. Leads me to believe that the age of the unit has little to do with these issues.

Rich


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## SlimyPizza (Oct 14, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> primetime and mgroups - Do you also notice any stuttering of video/audio (brief pauses) on playback of your recordings, perhaps at the same time as you notice the excessive hard disk drive activity?


Absolutely! In fact, the only time I experience the "stuttering" of A/V on playback is when the HDD begins its excessive churning operation. After the HDD activity has passed I can go back and replay the "stuttered" section of the programming and it plays just fine. This all began a couple of NRs ago on my HR20-700.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Wow, that's amazing. I have the same exact problem as the rest of you guys. It's really incredible how all our hard drives can fail at the exact same time, even brand new external ones. What's even more amazing is that they can work perfectly well for long periods of time too. They must be using magical hard drives that break and repair themselves spontaneously and aren't controlled by D*'s lousy software at all, but by some magical mysterious force that keep all these failures in perfect sync with other hard drives across the country.

But seriously, could their be certain hardware rev's within the HR20-700 line affected by the recent software releases? That could explain why some are having issues and others aren't.

I'd have replaced my DVR by now, but, like the rest of you guys, I need OTA and don't need another 2 yr commitment. I guess we'll just have to tough this one out.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

I also get a 'crunching' hard drive noise sometimes when watching pre-recorded shows and when it happens, the program stops for a second or so. This has been going on for a few months on my HR20-700. I don't record much on the HR22-100, so I wouldn't really notice it on that one.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

rich584 said:


> I don't have that excessive HDD activity problem on any of my ten HRs, but I do have the audio and video dropouts and the pixellations. I gather that is what you mean by "stuttering". If it is, I don't think the two problems are related. Rich


Rich - the problem I and some others see definitely correlates to the excessive hard drive activity (see just the last 3 posts from slimypizza, mdavej , and n3ntj for example).

I think there are at least two similar but different problems going on (and I see both).

Problem 1. Stuttering on playback of a recording (or during chase-play i.e. watching some minutes behind live TV). This manifests as brief (from fraction of a second to couple of seconds) pauses, then un-pauses, of both video and audio. The picture does NOT break up or pixelate. It behaves just as if I had hit pause (sometimes as if I had hit pause multiple times in a very short interval). The hard disk drive activity is excessive at the same time. When you re-play the same segment, you don't see the same problem i.e. the stuttering is not on the recording.

Problem 2. Corrupted video and audio stream on the recording. This manifests a little differently - here I see picture break up / pixelation for similar periods (fraction of a second up to one second or so) and the audio pauses also. But on re-play, the exact same problem is visible in the same spot, i.e. this problem was on the recording. Was it on the original live broadcast? I don't know.

Problem 1 definitely began with 0x034C (couple of months ago). I think Problem 2 began then as well, but less certain on its timing.

Last point about Problem 1: Previously, the HDD thrashing was VERY evident (audibly) so it was easy to correlate to the stuttering. After I did the surface scan and cleared the guide cache, the HDD thrashing has reduced and is less noisy when it thrashes (I'm at 1.5 weeks and counting). But I still can correlate excessive HDD activity with Problem 1 occurence (I just have to listen more carefully for it now).

Antony.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

For anyone interested, I am still having my issues (audio/video freezes, uncommanded reboots, and stuttering) but have just hunkered down and am riding the storm. I never had the noise or excessive hard drive activity, but then I may just not be hearing it. This after diagnostic surface scans, back-to-back reboots (the kind *I* initiate) to flush guide data, tightened connections, and anything else I can think of. Using original internal drive also.

And btw by stuttering I mean the video "steps" as an overtaxed PC video card might do: at regular intervals, maybe every second or so, the video stops for a fraction of a second. Very obvious and hard to watch, especially on camera pans.

I sent a nastygram e-mail to D*, hoping to not have to deal with a standard script over the phone, and they responded by turning on Showtime for a few months and asking me to call in. I guess they bought some more patience from me. Much more, though and I will look like this: :jump3:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> Rich - the problem I and some others see definitely correlates to the excessive hard drive activity (see just the last 3 posts from slimypizza, mdavej , and n3ntj for example).
> 
> I think there are at least two similar but different problems going on (and I see both).


That's the conclusion I have come to since I don't get the noisy HDDs at all. I've been reading their posts wondering if a fix will do anything. I've also read posts where the HDDs or HRs have been changed out and the problems persist. And all because people wanted DLBs so very badly. I'm not gonna change my mind about that.



> Problem 1. Stuttering on playback of a recording (or during chase-play i.e. watching some minutes behind live TV). This manifests as brief (from fraction of a second to couple of seconds) pauses, then un-pauses, of both video and audio. The picture does NOT break up or pixelate. It behaves just as if I had hit pause (sometimes as if I had hit pause multiple times in a very short interval). The hard disk drive activity is excessive at the same time. When you re-play the same segment, you don't see the same problem i.e. the stuttering is not on the recording.


I've checked an rechecked and it's always on the recording on my HRs. It would seem that, in your case, the excessive chattering is causing the dropouts. Still seems odd that it's not on the recording the second time you play it back, but I've seen that before.



> Problem 2. Corrupted video and audio stream on the recording. This manifests a little differently - here I see picture break up / pixelation for similar periods (fraction of a second up to one second or so) and the audio pauses also. But on re-play, the exact same problem is visible in the same spot, i.e. this problem was on the recording. Was it on the original live broadcast? I don't know.


That's what I get. No real way to tell if it was on the live broadcast unless you have someone else watching on another TV hooked up to a different HR. I'd be willing to bet it's on the live broadcast, tho. Leaving my HRs unplugged overnight ameliorated that problem. I had it so bad after the DLB NR that I thought I was gonna have to dump all my precious 20-700s.



> Problem 1 definitely began with 0x034C (couple of months ago). I think Problem 2 began then as well, but less certain on its timing.


Yup, that was the DLB NR. That's exactly when it started. Wrecked a fairly expensive 2TB eSATA and a brand new 1.5 WD EADS HDD in an Antec. Both had been working properly until that NR came down.



> Last point about Problem 1: Previously, the HDD thrashing was VERY evident (audibly) so it was easy to correlate to the stuttering. After I did the surface scan and cleared the guide cache, the HDD thrashing has reduced and is less noisy when it thrashes (I'm at 1.5 weeks and counting). But I still can correlate excessive HDD activity with Problem 1 occurence (I just have to listen more carefully for it now).


Just out of curiosity, do you have very large To Do lists? In the range of 150-175. I know that folks with small kids have these extremely large To Do lists and they have been adversely affected. Seems that if they get them down to a much lower figure some of their problems subside.

Keep the faith, Antony, this will get fixed. I hope. We gotta have patience.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> For anyone interested, I am still having my issues (audio/video freezes, uncommanded reboots, and stuttering) but have just hunkered down and am riding the storm. I never had the noise or excessive hard drive activity, but then I may just not be hearing it. This after diagnostic surface scans, back-to-back reboots (the kind *I* initiate) to flush guide data, tightened connections, and anything else I can think of. Using original internal drive also.
> 
> And btw by stuttering I mean the video "steps" as an overtaxed PC video card might do: at regular intervals, maybe every second or so, the video stops for a fraction of a second. Very obvious and hard to watch, especially on camera pans.
> 
> I sent a nastygram e-mail to D*, hoping to not have to deal with a standard script over the phone, and they responded by turning on Showtime for a few months and asking me to call in. I guess they bought some more patience from me. Much more, though and I will look like this: :jump3:


Patience. Gotta have patience. I truly believe this will all get sorted out and fixed.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

If these problems are caused by "Static Electricity Buildup" due to Improper Grounding then unplugging the DVR would cause them to act okay once the "Static Electricity Buildup" has bled off or dissipated. Also, replacing the hard drive would cause them to act okay if the static electricity had a chance to bleed off while you were installing the drive.

However, if the grounding problem is not fixed then the problem will come right back. I had my phone system go out and the lady from Bellsouth told me to unplug the phones for 20 minutes and then plug them all back in.

I thought she was crazy but to humor her I did that and lo and behold the phones worked perfectly once I had plugged them back in.

Tom Robertson had his Caller ID go out and he unplugged his unit for a period of time and plugged it back in and got his Caller ID back working fine.

"Static Electricity Buildup" can exhibit some Strange Problems and result in unpredictable behavior with electronics. The solution is to have someone who is experienced with proper grounding check your system to see if it is the Culprit.

I'm not saying that this is the case but it could be a possibility worth checking out.

Just trying to help.

Also, there is another problem that can mimic bad or failing hard drive systoms and that is a Failing or Marginal Power Supply Unit that works okay and then intermittently doesn't supply enough power to the drive which causes pixellation, hiccups, rebooting, stuttering, pauses, etc.

Just another thing to think about.

I had a link to a company that can repair or replace a failing or bad power supply unit.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mdavej said:


> But seriously, could their be certain hardware rev's within the HR20-700 line affected by the recent software releases? That could explain why some are having issues and others aren't.
> 
> I'd have replaced my DVR by now, but, like the rest of you guys, I need OTA and don't need another 2 yr commitment. I guess we'll just have to tough this one out.


That's my theory. On other products I've worked on, I've allowed part substitutions due to shortages or obsolescence issues. I didn't change the model #. The serial # would tell me which parts that unit has without opening it up.

Also, replacing a defective DVR does not renew your commitment. But you'll have to make sure that they don't "accidentally" do it anyway. Also, you could end up with the same problem anyway.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> Problem 2. Corrupted video and audio stream on the recording. This manifests a little differently - here I see picture break up / pixelation for similar periods (fraction of a second up to one second or so) and the audio pauses also. But on re-play, the exact same problem is visible in the same spot, i.e. this problem was on the recording. Was it on the original live broadcast? I don't know.


I have noted the time on the hd-dvr when I heard the thrashing, and gone to a recording and at the same time had dropouts as if I lost OTA signal. So it is affecting recordings in more than one way. I am getting what looks like dropouts from OTA stations I haven't had dropouts in years. 


> Problem 1 definitely began with 0x034C (couple of months ago). I think Problem 2 began then as well, but less certain on its timing.


I first noticed it on one of our hd-dvr's just after DLB went NR. I'm not sure if this was that release or not.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you have very large To Do lists? In the range of 150-175. I know that folks with small kids have these extremely large To Do lists and they have been adversely affected. Seems that if they get them down to a much lower figure some of their problems subside.


No, I don't - just mediocre size, 30 to 35 typically. But I appreciate the suggestion.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> I have noted the time on the hd-dvr when I heard the thrashing, and gone to a recording and at the same time had dropouts as if I lost OTA signal. So it is affecting recordings in more than one way. I am getting what looks like dropouts from OTA stations I haven't had dropouts in years.
> 
> I first noticed it on one of our hd-dvr's just after DLB went NR. I'm not sure if this was that release or not.


So just to clarify - in this situation, you did NOT see any problems with the live TV feed, but you DID see the problem when you later played back the recording and it was definitely repeatable (i.e. the recording was corrupted). Did I get this right?

Yes, the DLB NR 0x034C was when the thrashing behavior began - for those who suffer from it.

thanks,
Antony.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I guess no one read my post or cares if their problem could be related to "static electricity buildup" or a bad or failing power supply unit.

Very Interesting!!!!


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

richierich said:


> I guess no one read my post or cares if their problem could be related to "static electricity buildup" or a bad or failing power supply unit.
> 
> Very Interesting!!!!


I'm pretty sure that the HDD issues people are observing have nothing to do with static electricity.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

richierich said:


> If these problems are caused by "Static Electricity Buildup" due to Improper Grounding then unplugging the DVR would cause them to act okay once the "Static Electricity Buildup" has bled off or dissipated. Also, replacing the hard drive would cause them to act okay if the static electricity had a chance to bleed off while you were installing the drive.
> 
> However, if the grounding problem is not fixed then the problem will come right back. I had my phone system go out and the lady from Bellsouth told me to unplug the phones for 20 minutes and then plug them all back in.
> 
> ...


Actually it was not I who had a callerID problem but another use. 

I have reported that static electricity buildup from winds across the dish can cause problems if not discharged properly by grounding the dish lines and switches.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

So maybe it is due to Directv's last software release and will be hopefully corrected by the next software release.


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## mgroups (Apr 28, 2007)

Another observation: I almost always tune my HR20 to an XM radio station before going to bed to give the hard drive a rest. I have been doing that since shortly after I got the DVR because it eliminated nearly all the drive activity (other than spinning) except when something was recording on the other tuner. Now when I do it, making sure both tuners are on XM channels, I get some of the “new” hard drive noise. It is not the normal continuous and quiet write noise but rather a distinct clunk or two about every two seconds but not at precisely regular intervals, with an occasional whir in between; nor is it the intermittent loud grinding that occurs when not tuned to XM. The drive activity light on the eSATA enclosure does not flicker under this condition. 

I don’t know the significance of this if any, since it already seems apparent that the loud noises are not record/playback write/read noise, but I thought I’d mention it in case it helps D* with diagnosis of the problem.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

richierich said:


> So maybe it is due to Directv's last software release and will be hopefully corrected by the next software release.


Well, as of today, I'm on the 6th version since the problem started, and the problem is as bad as ever (half-second video freezes every few minutes). Sadly, I've come to the conclusion D* has no intention of fixing this problem. They're more interested in adding more and more crap no one needs than making a functional DVR. I guess they're just trying to kill off the HR20 and force everyone to upgrade. I can't wait for U-verse.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> Sadly, I've come to the conclusion D* has no intention of fixing this problem.


Then you've come to the wrong conclusion. 

They are aware of the reports such as yours, and anxious to address any related issues - you could likely assume they are working on it somehow so that it gets resolved as soon as feasible.

Also, since only a % of folks have seen the problem, it made diagnostics a bit tougher, but you can have more faith that things will improve.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Then you've come to the wrong conclusion.
> 
> They are aware of the reports such as yours, and anxious to address any related issues - you could likely assume they are working on it somehow so that it gets resolved as soon as feasible.
> 
> Also, since only a % of folks have seen the problem, it made diagnostics a bit tougher, but you can have more faith that things will improve.


hdtvfan0001 - It's encouraging to hear this is still being actively addressed. If other information from users who see the problem is needed to help debug this, I for one am happy to provide it (and I sense that others are too). So please let us know what other data, or even experiments, might help the diagnosis.

Antony.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mdavej said:


> Well, as of today, I'm on the 6th version since the problem started, and the problem is as bad as ever (half-second video freezes every few minutes). Sadly, I've come to the conclusion D* has no intention of fixing this problem. They're more interested in adding more and more crap no one needs than making a functional DVR. I guess they're just trying to kill off the HR20 and force everyone to upgrade. I can't wait for U-verse.


This stuff takes patience. Better that they take their time and do it right or hurry up and screw something else up. While these issues are new, we've gone thru periods like this before and they've always fixed the problem. There's no reason to believe that this won't get fixed. Of course if you call D* and talk to the first CSR you get who has to read off a script, you're gonna get the impression that no one at D* is aware of the problems. They monitor this forum and they know about the problems. Just have patience.

Rich


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They are aware of the reports such as yours, and anxious to address any related issues - you could likely assume they are working on it somehow so that it gets resolved as soon as feasible.
> 
> Also, since only a % of folks have seen the problem, it made diagnostics a bit tougher, but you can have more faith that things will improve.


This is the first post I've seen that actually acknowledges D* is aware and working on a fix. I hope it's true. Despite my frustration, I really don't want to dump D* if I don't have to.

Here's an interesting new data point. If I pause the live buffer for a few minutes and then resume playback, I never get a freeze, no matter how much drive activity I hear. In other words, all disc activity for buffering, playback and guide indexing never interferes with playback of the buffer. It only interferes when playing back recordings. So whatever they're doing to give buffer playback highest priority, they need to also do for playback of recordings.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

mdavej said:


> Sadly, I've come to the conclusion D* has no intention of fixing this problem.


Its amazing to read some of the completely irrational statements that get made when people arent thinking clearly....

:nono2:


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

CCarncross said:


> Its amazing to read some of the completely irrational statements that get made when people arent thinking clearly....
> 
> :nono2:


6 versions and absolutely NO change makes it a very rational statement. Add to that the fact that the first several pages of this thread are full of denials that the problem even exists. And those that do acknowledge it exists blame it on failing hardware. So it's very rational to conclude if all the D* insiders here deny the problem, then D* themselves likely deny the problem. At least some change in playback behavior would indicate they are working on a fix. No change indicates they are not working on it. The only changes I've seen in all these versions are the addition of more and more useless features, and no reduction in video freezes. I have no idea if all the people saying "don't worry, they're working on it" have any evidence or are just speculating. The only hard evidence I have is what I see with my own eyes.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Here's an interesting new data point. If I pause the live buffer for a few minutes and then resume playback, I never get a freeze, no matter how much drive activity I hear. In other words, all disc activity for buffering, playback and guide indexing never interferes with playback of the buffer. It only interferes when playing back recordings. So whatever they're doing to give buffer playback highest priority, they need to also do for playback of recordings.


That is in interesting. Unfortunately I have done that test and see different results.

In my case I have still seen stuttering during playback in chase-play i.e when playing back from the buffer a few minutes behind live TV (and I was not recording that show). I proved it was a playback issue by re-playing the same segment and not seeing the problem the second time.

I will do more of this to see if the frequency of occurence is less than when I am playing back a recording, in case it helps.

Antony.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> That is in interesting. Unfortunately I have done that test and see different results.
> 
> In my case I have still seen stuttering during playback in chase-play i.e when playing back from the buffer a few minutes behind live TV (and I was not recording that show). I proved it was a playback issue by re-playing the same segment and not seeing the problem the second time.
> 
> ...


Are you still running the national release software? If so, then this is hopeful. It may indicate they have indeed changed something.


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

mdavej said:


> 6 versions and absolutely NO change makes it a very rational statement. Add to that the fact that the first several pages of this thread are full of denials that the problem even exists. And those that do acknowledge it exists blame it on failing hardware. So it's very rational to conclude if all the D* insiders here deny the problem, then D* themselves likely deny the problem. At least some change in playback behavior would indicate they are working on a fix. No change indicates they are not working on it. The only changes I've seen in all these versions are the addition of more and more useless features, and no reduction in video freezes. I have no idea if all the people saying "don't worry, they're working on it" have any evidence or are just speculating. The only hard evidence I have is what I see with my own eyes.


6 versions? if that is true then I think its possible you are not on national release and your issues should be posted in a different forum.
this all started, for most, on 034c which was the NR right before this present NR.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> This is the first post I've seen that actually acknowledges D* is aware and working on a fix. I hope it's true. Despite my frustration, I really don't want to dump D* if I don't have to.
> 
> Here's an interesting new data point. If I pause the live buffer for a few minutes and then resume playback, I never get a freeze, no matter how much drive activity I hear. In other words, all disc activity for buffering, playback and guide indexing never interferes with playback of the buffer. It only interferes when playing back recordings. So whatever they're doing to give buffer playback highest priority, they need to also do for playback of recordings.


The key to solving this is to use the diagnostic report information in the ISSUES THREAD, and then explain the symptoms. ISSUES threads are followed by DirecTV much more closely than discussion threads.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

David MacLeod said:


> 6 versions? if that is true then I think its possible you are not on national release and your issues should be posted in a different forum.
> this all started, for most, on 034c which was the NR right before this present NR.


Correct .. Anything .. ANYTHING .. related to Cutting Edge Versions needs to be posted in the Cutting Edge forums, not here.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Are you still running the national release software? If so, then this is hopeful. It may indicate they have indeed changed something.


Yes I am running the latest NRs only. As mentioned by Dave MacLeod, the problem began with 034C. It continued, albeit to a lesser extent IMO, with 0368.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

David MacLeod said:


> 6 versions? if that is true then I think its possible you are not on national release and your issues should be posted in a different forum.
> this all started, for most, on 034c which was the NR right before this present NR.


I was gonna make that same comment, David. All mine were fine before the DLB NR (034c). If he's really had that problem for six NRs, there's definitely something wrong other than what he suspects.

Rich


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The key to solving this is to use the diagnostic report information in the ISSUES THREAD, and then explain the symptoms. ISSUES threads are followed by DirecTV much more closely than discussion threads.


I did that with the first few versions (sending diagnostic reports), but gave up when I didn't see any changes at all in later releases.

I'll start a new thread in the appropriate forum.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I did that with the first few versions (sending diagnostic reports), but gave up when I didn't see any changes at all in later releases.
> 
> I'll start a new thread in the appropriate forum.


There already is an ISSUES thread.

The MODS start those.

There is one for EVERY release.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

I just noticed how few people voted on the poll. Over 6600 people viewed the poll and about 430 people voted? If only 200+ folks are having problems with loud HDDs, as the poll shows, would that (I can't believe I'm gonna say this) not point to HDDs that are actually shot?

I just activated a 20-700 today and the HDD is silent. Eleven HRs, all with silent HDDs, 17 HDDs in all that are quiet. I've been convinced that the noisy HDDs would be salvaged, but the numbers seem to point to a rash of bad HDDs. I lost two eSATAs after the DLB NR so I can understand that HDDs can be destroyed functionally by an NR. And it's happened to me before. Usually lose something with some of the NRs. Some are benign. 

Perhaps if a few of you with the worst symptoms were to get replacements that didn't make noise, that would satisfy the argument.

Rich


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> There already is an ISSUES thread.
> 
> The MODS start those.
> 
> There is one for EVERY release.


Fantastic. Then you'll have no reason to post in my worthless thread.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I just noticed how few people voted on the poll. Over 6600 people viewed the poll and about 430 people voted? If only 200+ folks are having problems with loud HDDs, as the poll shows, would that (I can't believe I'm gonna say this) not point to HDDs that are actually shot?
> 
> I just activated a 20-700 today and the HDD is silent. Eleven HRs, all with silent HDDs, 17 HDDs in all that are quiet. I've been convinced that the noisy HDDs would be salvaged, but the numbers seem to point to a rash of bad HDDs. I lost two eSATAs after the DLB NR so I can understand that HDDs can be destroyed functionally by an NR. And it's happened to me before. Usually lose something with some of the NRs. Some are benign.
> 
> ...


Some of us have been saying the same things Rich, but criticized, insulted, and basically told there is no way this could be. I happen to agree with you, but those with problems seem to be convinced its the firmware/software....which many of us know makes no sense at all.....since everyone would then be seeing the same things (which is not the case).

Personally.....with the HR20's being about 3 1/2 years old and running 24 X 7, and realizing DVRs share most of the same components as PCs....seeing a few hundred hard drives begin to fail at this age in their life among hundreds of thousands in the field is not really surprising. Those less in age may simply have a defective hardware component....it happens.

This is not to discount, minimize, or dismiss the problem, simply to point out that hard drives are mechanical devices...and when run for years and years 24 X 7, the eventually can fail....so not a shocker.

Like you, I also have 2 HR20-700's that are of the same 3 1/2 year age without any of the reported problem symptoms. I look at that as my being lucky so far...not unique.

If and when *my* DVR device (I have 3 in total right now) has the kinds of loud noise issues, and after I go through and do a series of tests, I would call DirecTV and report the problem with the intent of getting a replacement unit.

One last point - some have proposed that power may be a contributor, which is also a viable explanation. Hard drives with inconsistent, unclean, and failing (power supply) problems also can show these same kinds of noise and other symptoms. Those of us with experience dealing with thousands of PCs have also seen power supplies fail and/or begin to be faulty in their output...resulting in various components (including video cards and hard drives) perform below standard or even fail.

Clearly the release of the firmware may have had an impact, but is not the cause....otherwise we'd all see it. I suspect it simply may have helped "bring to light" those with pending hard drive issues" via alot of new data being stored with the firmware pushout.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Some of us have been saying the same things Rich, but criticized, insulted, and basically told there is no way this could be. I happen to agree with you, but those with problems seem to be convinced its the firmware/software....which many of us know makes no sense at all.....since everyone would then be seeing the same things (which is not the case).
> 
> Personally.....with the HR20's being about 3 1/2 years old and running 24 X 7, and realizing DVRs share most of the same components as PCs....seeing a few hundred hard drives begin to fail at this age in their life among hundreds of thousands in the field is not really surprising. Those less in age may simply have a defective hardware component....it happens.
> 
> ...


Some of us have always been of the opinion that each NR will "root" out HRs that are ready to fail, but in this case the DLB NR seemed to reach many people. I was really surprised when I looked at the poll numbers yesterday that so few people had actually voted for noisy HDDs.

Now I have to pose this question: Does anyone that is having the noisy HDD problem have more than one noisy HDD? Positive answers would probably change my opinion once again. The two HDDs that I had go bad after the DLB NR got dumped immediately, but they exhibited different symptoms than have been posted by others. After all these years with DVRs I've got a pretty good idea what a bad HDD does and mine did just that. But they didn't make the noises that have been reported.

Rich


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I just noticed how few people voted on the poll. Over 6600 people viewed the poll and about 430 people voted? If only 200+ folks are having problems with loud HDDs, as the poll shows, would that (I can't believe I'm gonna say this) not point to HDDs that are actually shot?


At this point, the poll has a bias simply because the folks visiting the thread now are likely actively seeking a thread about "loud" drives. However, @ about 100 votes, the poll was very likely random enough to still be accurate. That was 1 out of 3 saying that the HDD is "loud" for whatever reason. So, regardless of you want to play the statistics games, I think it's safe to say that a significant number of folks have taken notice of this.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> At this point, the poll has a bias simply because the folks visiting the thread now are likely actively seeking a thread about "loud" drives. However, @ about 100 votes, the poll was very likely random enough to still be accurate. That was 1 out of 3 saying that the HDD is "loud" for whatever reason. So, regardless of you want to play the statistics games, I think it's safe to say that *a significant number *of folks have taken notice of this.


It appears we're all on the page there...


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## jdwatson (Oct 1, 2006)

I've grown used to the loud drive sound, but I'm rather intolerant of the video freeze and audio drop out. On my DVR this problem occurs at any level of free-space. Sometimes, I can rewind and wait for the disk to quiet down and then re-start the program/show but that doesn't always work.

I have one of the original HR20-700 DVRs.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> At this point, the poll has a bias simply because the folks visiting the thread now are likely actively seeking a thread about "loud" drives. However, @ about 100 votes, the poll was very likely random enough to still be accurate. That was 1 out of 3 saying that the HDD is "loud" for whatever reason. So, regardless of you want to play the statistics games, I think it's safe to say that a significant number of folks have taken notice of this.


Could you clarify this. I've been involved in a lot of quality control programs and I know that this is not enough to reach any conclusion but that some HDDs are failing. I really expected a much larger amount of votes on the poll, but the low numbers point only to failing HDDs. I think. But if a couple people post that they have two or more HRs with this problem, then I'd have to rethink my conclusion. What bothers me is the number of IT folks who have posted and said that it doesn't sound like a bad HDD.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jdwatson said:


> I've grown used to the loud drive sound, but I'm rather intolerant of the video freeze and audio drop out. On my DVR this problem occurs at any level of free-space. Sometimes, I can rewind and wait for the disk to quiet down and then re-start the program/show but that doesn't always work.
> 
> I have one of the original HR20-700 DVRs.


I really don't think the two issues are related. I get the audio and video dropouts on all my HRs and have no noisy HRs. That's what leads me to this conclusion.

Rich


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Now I have to pose this question: Does anyone that is having the noisy HDD problem have more than one noisy HDD? Positive answers would probably change my opinion once again. The two HDDs that I had go bad after the DLB NR got dumped immediately, but they exhibited different symptoms than have been posted by others. After all these years with DVRs I've got a pretty good idea what a bad HDD does and mine did just that. But they didn't make the noises that have been reported.


3 20's


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> 3 20's


All three make the same type of noise? Sound alike?

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I have TWO HR20-700s and they are both relatively quiet. They appear to be refurbished units so they probably have a relatively new drive that hasn't experienced alot of 24/7 use or none at all before I got them.

However, it is my opionion that several things can be at play here. If you had units that were close to being Marginal because of a Marginal Hard Drive or a Marginal or Failing Power Supply unit and you introduced software code that abnormally stressed the DVR and it's hard drive then this could be enough to push them over the edge to where they are closer to Failing Completely.

If you have a Marginal Power Supply unit and you unplug it for awhile it will then continue to operate many many times as a perfectly good power supply unit until it heats up long enough to cause it to perform marginally or to fail altogether. 

If you have a Marginal Power Supply unit that is operating marginally or supplying varying amounts of power to the motherboard, hard drive, etc. it could cause alot of the symptoms I am hearing about. Some units have had the Power Supply replaced and operate perfectly after that. Some just had to be tweaked to increase their power supply output. However, they need to be replaced as they are symptomatic of failing and the tweaking will just help them for awhile until they fail completely.

Also, "static electricity buildup" can cause abnormal functions of electronics particularly hard drives and their associated electrical components such as a motherboard, etc. As I stated before "static electricity buildup" due to improper grounding caused my telephone system to quit working completely. The technician told me to unplug it for 20 minutes or so and plug it back in and then it worked perfectly. I was very very skeptical of this solving my problem but it did and I have studied more about it since then.

So some may have problems coming from one of these issues as they all tend to exhibit the same type of behaviour that mimics the symptoms of a hard drive failing.

Most of the units that have been reporting problems seem to be HR20-700s so maybe they are over 3 years and they are starting to fail and this software has stressed them to the point where they are making noise indicative of an overtaxed unit that may be very close to failing.

There are my thoughts and I just wanted to share them with you. You may find them enlightening or maybe not.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Could you clarify this. I've been involved in a lot of quality control programs and I know that this is not enough to reach any conclusion but that some HDDs are failing. I really expected a much larger amount of votes on the poll, but the low numbers point only to failing HDDs. I think. But if a couple people post that they have two or more HRs with this problem, then I'd have to rethink my conclusion. What bothers me is the number of IT folks who have posted and said that it doesn't sound like a bad HDD.
> 
> Rich


Rich, first "views" is not single individuals. I don't know that it adds each time you come into the thread, but I'm sure that you count as a new view each day you come into the thread. It's likely more often than that even.

Secondly, drive characteristics vary (some are truly louder than others) and peoples tolerance levels vary as well. So while I think my drives are not loud, if someone were to drop by my house, they might say that it is loud. This is in no way a scientific poll I don't think you can ready anything into the results other than to say that this issue is affecting a non-insignificant portion of the population.

Do I think the situation will improve? Yes. Will everyone? doubtful.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> All three make the same type of noise? Sound alike?


Yes.

#1 started with DLB
#2 started a few weeks ago
#3 started about a week after #2. #3 we have had about 2 or 3 months.

#2 sounds the worst. It has woken us up at night.

Run SMART and surface scans on all of them and no errors.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

richierich said:


> Most of the units that have been reporting problems seem to be HR20-700s so maybe they are over 3 years and they are starting to fail and this software has stressed them to the point where they are making noise indicative of an overtaxed unit that may be very close to failing.


#1 and 3 700's, #2 100


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Hopefully if this is a problem with the software then they will fix it in the next NR!!!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richierich said:


> Hopefully if this is a problem with the software then they will fix it in the next NR!!!


Agreed.

But then if they next NR is pushed out, and some folks still have the problem...I suppose we'll have further evidence its not the firmware after all.

Looking forward to having it corrected for those who have had to deal with it, regardless of how its addressed. My money is still on it being a hardware issue....we'll see.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

OK, now this is weird. Up to now I've been testing with the least possible drive activity, and I get freezes and bursts of drive noise pretty regularly. Well, today I was recording 2 HD programs while watching a third. Guess what. No freezes. No bursts of audible drive activity. I know the drive is working really hard, but it's quiet as a mouse and as smooth as silk. Haven't tried double play while playing back a recording, but I'm guessing that would work fine too.

So I have a new theory. If I'm playing back one program with nothing else going on (besides the live buffer), more time is alloted for background tasks (indexing, or whatever). But with a lot of record/playback tasks going on, there's much less time for background stuff, so it's not done and hence can't interfere. I assume guide data is stored physically far away from the video data. So any indexing would require rapidly jumping back and forth from the guide area of the drive to the video area, hence the noise. Heavy recording/playback would all be in the same general area, so not much noise. 

At least I have a work-around (record 2 other programs during playback) until D* fixes this.


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## jdwatson (Oct 1, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I really don't think the two issues are related. I get the audio and video dropouts on all my HRs and have no noisy HRs. That's what leads me to this conclusion.
> 
> Rich


We only get video/audio drop out (in good weather) if the drive is chunking. It's not the noise that causing the problem, it's drive. Since there's no "drive activity" LED on my box, the way I know the drive is getting a lot of activity is by the sound it makes. When there's a lot of disk activity, I lose (note, not loose) audio and video.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

On unit #3, 40 minutes into Glee 6 a/v pause's and each time I hear the hdd making a sound.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

mdavej said:


> OK, now this is weird. Up to now I've been testing with the least possible drive activity, and I get freezes and bursts of drive noise pretty regularly. Well, today I was recording 2 HD programs while watching a third. Guess what. No freezes. No bursts of audible drive activity. I know the drive is working really hard, but it's quiet as a mouse and as smooth as silk. Haven't tried double play while playing back a recording, but I'm guessing that would work fine too.
> 
> So I have a new theory. If I'm playing back one program with nothing else going on (besides the live buffer), more time is alloted for background tasks (indexing, or whatever). But with a lot of record/playback tasks going on, there's much less time for background stuff, so it's not done and hence can't interfere. I assume guide data is stored physically far away from the video data. So any indexing would require rapidly jumping back and forth from the guide area of the drive to the video area, hence the noise. Heavy recording/playback would all be in the same general area, so not much noise.
> 
> At least I have a work-around (record 2 other programs during playback) until D* fixes this.


Funny you should post this tonight. Although I have noted no notable drive noise ever, I have regular issues with video freezes, stutters, and even uncommanded reboots. One of the few--if not only--times today I had no problems and everything was smooth was a 20-minute period or so a couple of hours ago. Guess what my HR21-100 was doing? Yep, two recordings at once. In my case, though, I was watching one of those recordings live also--not watching a third (recorded) program. At the time I noted how well it was working and wondered to myself.

Thinking aloud: was something in the DLB NR modified or optimized for the case of two simultaneous recordings (of which DLB is one form), and did that somehow mess things up for the other states--one recording or none?

Probably just a coincidence, though. I may play around with this some more....


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## jjohns (Sep 15, 2007)

Extrememly loud - ever since the last "upgrade version".
Please hurry with the Tivo-D* model. . . I want this version=bug train to stop.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Wow, the silence is deafening, in more ways than one (in this thread and on my DVR). Is it because of my miraculous self-repairing hard drive which I can now make fail or work perfectly at will?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

mdavej said:


> Wow, the silence is deafening, in more ways than one (in this thread and on my DVR). Is it because of my miraculous self-repairing hard drive which I can now make fail or work perfectly at will?


YES!!!


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Patience. Gotta have patience. I truly believe this will all get sorted out and fixed.
> 
> Rich


Well, I guess I'm officially out. The thing won't go more than 3 minutes tonight without a picture freeze of 30 seconds or more. Happens on live feeds, and is especially bad on recorded programs. I bet it froze two dozen times while I went through a single episode of FlashForward earlier tonight. What a piece of junk. When it's not frozen, the picture stutters. And once when it froze, it did an uncommanded reboot. Intolerable. DirecTV will be getting a call from me post haste. 

BTW, recording two programs at once (see four posts back) did not improve anything, so there goes that theory.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

mesaboy2 said:


> BTW, recording two programs at once (see four posts back) did not improve anything, so there goes that theory.


I'm not running the same version as you. So there is hope.


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## mesaboy2 (Mar 11, 2008)

mdavej said:


> I'm not running the same version as you. So there is hope.


For you maybe!


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mdavej said:


> I'm not running the same version as you. So there is hope.


I have the -700. I doubt your luck will last, but hope it does. I've seen the stuttering when doing the same thing that you are doing. In fact when the problems were first reported after the DLB NR came out, several folks reported that the problem was worse when they simultaneously recorded and played back.

I think you just got lucky in that the frenetic disk I/O isn't happening at the same time.....yet.

I'll keep my fingers crossed though.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Rich, first "views" is not single individuals. I don't know that it adds each time you come into the thread, but I'm sure that you count as a new view each day you come into the thread. It's likely more often than that even.


I realize that. I considered that when I posted. Out of over 6,000 "viewers", I doubt if there are as many as 2,000 individuals. And that is another reason why I changed my mind about the noise issue. If I had a noisy HDD, I'd now consider it shot.



> Secondly, drive characteristics vary (some are truly louder than others) and peoples tolerance levels vary as well. So while I think my drives are not loud, if someone were to drop by my house, they might say that it is loud. This is in no way a scientific poll I don't think you can ready anything into the results other than to say that this issue is affecting a non-insignificant portion of the population.


I understand it's subjective. But, all my seven 20-700s have HDDs that are far quieter than the fans. None of my four 21s make any noise at all. With my luck, I'd expect all of them to be bouncing off the shelves, but all are silent and three are in bedrooms. I agree that this problem is affecting a "non-significant" portion of the folks who use HRs.

But, if a few members post that they have several HRs that are noisy, I'd have to reassess my conclusion. To have, say, three HRs making those noises in one home kinda makes me think something else is going on. And we still have to consider all those IT folks who insist that they know what a failing HDD sounds like and that's not what they are hearing.

Right now, with the info we have, I'll agree that this isn't a significant problem and should be addressed by getting a replacement.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Yes.
> 
> #1 started with DLB
> #2 started a few weeks ago
> ...


Wow. Didn't expect that. OK, that's one person. Anybody else?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jdwatson said:


> We only get video/audio drop out (in good weather) if the drive is chunking. It's not the noise that causing the problem, it's drive. Since there's no "drive activity" LED on my box, the way I know the drive is getting a lot of activity is by the sound it makes. When there's a lot of disk activity, I lose (note, not loose) audio and video.


I don't see why that wouldn't happen. What I'm saying is that I don't have any noisy HDDs issues and get the audio and video dropouts. I think that if I had an HDD that was banging and clanging, I'd expect something else to happen. Such as what you report. I still don't thing the two issues are related.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just telling you what I see on my HRs. I think the audio and video dropouts are a widespread issue and, while they seem to manifest themselves on noisy HDDs, those HDDs might well be the cause of them, but they are not causing my issues. I'm convinced that my issues are a result of the DLB NR which took out two HDDs of mine. I quickly replaced them.

Rich


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Rich, do you keep your DVRs on an open shelf or inside an enclosure?


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## jusfive (Dec 8, 2009)

i never hear mine it is quiet, but ever since the update recently i get freezes and hiccups with sound playing unaffected in the background along with pixelation.... frustrating!!!


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I think that if I had an HDD that was banging and clanging, I'd expect something else to happen.


It's not banging and clanging as if the drive is going bad, it seems like hard constant writing.



rich584 said:


> And we still have to consider all those IT folks who insist that they know what a failing HDD sounds like and that's not what they are hearing.
> 
> Right now, with the info we have, I'll agree that this isn't a significant problem and should be addressed by getting a replacement.


I'm an IT person and know what a failing hdd sounds like, and this isn't it. It is a significant problem when you have programs saved on the dvr that either don't come on much from months back, or movies saved from free previews/previous subscriptions to packages.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Rich, do you keep your DVRs on an open shelf or inside an enclosure?


Most are open on at least three sides. Two are in a cabinet, but I keep the doors open and the back has several three inch holes that I drilled in it. I'd hear the noise, I had basically the same setup with my twelve TiVos and the "seeking" noise drove me crazy when I was just reading or trying to grab a nap. Right now I'm sitting with a 20-700 about eighteen inches from my left ear and it is silent.

In my main viewing room, I have four 20-700s that are on glass selves and open on four sides and I don't even notice the fan noise when reading. No "seeking" noises.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

jusfive said:


> i never hear mine it is quiet, but ever since the update recently i get freezes and hiccups with sound playing unaffected in the background along with pixelation.... frustrating!!!


Yeah, that's what I get. It is frustrating. And I only watch recorded shows and the dropouts and pixellations are always recorded. And come at the worst possible moments.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> It's not banging and clanging as if the drive is going bad, it seems like hard constant writing.


Do you have really large To Do lists? Shows for kids and stuff like that that fills up the To Do lists?



> I'm an IT person and know what a failing hdd sounds like, and this isn't it. It is a significant problem when you have programs saved on the dvr that either don't come on much from months back, or movies saved from free previews/previous subscriptions to packages.


This is what bothers me about condemning all the noisy HDDs. When the IT folks speak, I tend to believe them.

Rich


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## dc_soccerdude (Dec 26, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Yeah, that's what I get. It is frustrating. And I only watch recorded shows and the dropouts and pixellations are always recorded. And come at the worst possible moments.
> 
> Rich


HDD noise (or rather I would classify it as activity) has increased slightly but still not bad but ditto on the above!!! Drives you crazy when you miss the best play or punchline :lol: Although sometimes you can rewind and it doesn't occur in the same place.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Do you have really large To Do lists? Shows for kids and stuff like that that fills up the To Do lists?


No, not really. I think the highest # of season passes is close to 30, but not all of those are in season. The one that could have the most in the to do is the first one that had the issues, but also thrashes the least.

Just as an fyi, in both the living room and bedroom we are about 12 - 15 ft away and can hear the sounds.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> No, not really. I think the highest # of season passes is close to 30, but not all of those are in season. The one that could have the most in the to do is the first one that had the issues, but also thrashes the least.
> 
> Just as an fyi, in both the living room and bedroom we are about 12 - 15 ft away and can hear the sounds.


This adds to my confusion. I have little doubt that some of the HDDs are bad, but what are the odds of having three of them, and I gather that the noise started up right after an NR? I had my head in my one cabinet today and heard nothing but the whisper of fans. Perplexing. How's your temps?

Rich


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> This adds to my confusion. I have little doubt that some of the HDDs are bad, but what are the odds of having three of them, and I gather that the noise started up right after an NR? I had my head in my one cabinet today and heard nothing but the whisper of fans. Perplexing. How's your temps?


I'll check when I get home. They are all well ventilated. #3 which thrashes the worse is the most open, and I can walk within a foot of it at times and can't even tell the hdd is working at all. But when it starts thrashing, all bets are off.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> I'll check when I get home. They are all well ventilated. #3 which thrashes the worse is the most open, and I can walk within a foot of it at times and can't even tell the hdd is working at all. But when it starts thrashing, all bets are off.


Be interesting to see a comparison of temps when the HDD is running quietly and when it thrashes.

Rich


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> This adds to my confusion. I have little doubt that some of the HDDs are bad, but what are the odds of having three of them, and I gather that the noise started up right after an NR? I had my head in my one cabinet today and heard nothing but the whisper of fans. Perplexing. How's your temps?
> 
> Rich


Temps should ideally be in the 35-45 C range. Reliability decreases fast once the drives exceed 60 deg. in temperature and decreases slowly as temps go below 30 C.

You aren't going to be able to hear any differences across temperature unless the mfr. really really really screwed something up. I can't even imagine how they could do that.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> Temps should ideally be in the 35-45 C range. Reliability decreases fast once the drives exceed 60 deg. in temperature and decreases slowly as temps go below 30 C.
> 
> You aren't going to be able to hear any differences across temperature unless the mfr. really really really screwed something up. I can't even imagine how they could do that.


Temps for the 20-700s should range from 123-126 on the high end, no higher than 130. For the 21s, the temps are usually in the 105-110 range. I ran a 21-700 for a year at about 123 degrees and it's still functioning correctly.

I just asked that question out of curiosity, we've beaten the temp issue to death and I really don't want to start it up again.

Rich


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

I ended up replacing my hard drive and getting a new fan for my MX1 enclosure. Since changing out those two last weekend my living room has returned to its normal noise level. So now I am completely unsure what was the cause of the increased noise.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Be interesting to see a comparison of temps when the HDD is running quietly and when it thrashes.


Same temp at 126/7 for both.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

captainjrl said:


> I ended up replacing my hard drive and getting a new fan for my MX1 enclosure. Since changing out those two last weekend my living room has returned to its normal noise level. So now I am completely unsure what was the cause of the increased noise.


I'd be curious to know if the problem remains solved or returns, if you don't mind keeping us updated. In addition to swopping the HDD you presumably had to restart at least once, and possibly had the DVR powered off for a while as well....so more than one thing happened at once.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

captainjrl said:


> I ended up replacing my hard drive and getting a new fan for my MX1 enclosure. Since changing out those two last weekend my living room has returned to its normal noise level. So now I am completely unsure what was the cause of the increased noise.


Probably a bad internal drive. Almost certainly.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Same temp at 126/7 for both.


Normal for the 20s.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

captainjrl said:


> I ended up replacing my hard drive and getting a new fan for my MX1 enclosure. Since changing out those two last weekend my living room has returned to its normal noise level. So now I am completely unsure what was the cause of the increased noise.


I'm curious also to see if the problem returns but if it doesn't then I think it is fairly safe to assume that it was a case of having a marginal hard drive in the process of failing.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Probably a bad internal drive. Almost certainly.
> 
> Rich


It was not an internal drive. It was in an enclosure.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

AntonyB said:


> I'd be curious to know if the problem remains solved or returns, if you don't mind keeping us updated. In addition to swopping the HDD you presumably had to restart at least once, and possibly had the DVR powered off for a while as well....so more than one thing happened at once.


You got it. Trust me, if this one does it as well, I'll be back to vent. 

I also am contemplating putting the old drive on a different DVR and seeing if it still does it.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

captainjrl said:


> It was not an internal drive. It was in an enclosure.


I gotta pay more attention. OK, bad external drive. Troubleshooting by substitution is more than acceptable.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

captainjrl said:


> I also am contemplating putting the old drive on a different DVR and seeing if it still does it.


You will have to reformat it.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

rich584 said:


> I gotta pay more attention. OK, bad external drive. Troubleshooting by substitution is more than acceptable.
> 
> Rich


Bad drive or not, I'm pretty sure captainjrl's problems only became noticeable after the DLB NR (see #33 in this thread, #88 in 0x0368 Discussion thread), as did mine and many other folks.

If an NR can cause the problem to manifest, then another NR can fix it. That is my hope and why I am not replacing the DVR as yet.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

AntonyB said:


> If an NR can cause the problem to manifest, then another NR can fix it. That is my hope and why I am not replacing the DVR as yet.


If the NR had some bad code that overly taxed the Marginal Hard Drive then that can cause them to exhibit problems that can push them over the cliff. If the code alone was that bad then we all would have the same problems.

I can't remember how many posters have complained of the problem and then replaced their drive and now they are not experiencing the problem. In fact they don't even post any more because their problem is solved.

I know of one poster who was adamant that the download caused his problem and berated Directv until he found a loose connector. I was surprised that he even admitted that he had moved his unit and the connector had then probably become loose or slightly disconnected.

He was so embarrassed but was gracious enough to admit his fault.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

richierich said:


> If the NR had some bad code that overly taxed the Marginal Hard Drive then that can cause them to exhibit problems that can push them over the cliff...


Which makes the NR at fault. I would have been much happier keeping the NR prior to the one that caused my noise issue and my "marginal" drive. These past two NRs have added no value for me and have cost me close to $200 out of pocket.


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## captainjrl (Jun 26, 2007)

richierich said:


> You will have to reformat it.


Will just plugging it in to the other HR do it or do I need to doing something in the boot-up menu?


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

richierich said:


> I'm curious also to see if the problem returns but if it doesn't then I think it is fairly safe to assume that it was a case of having a marginal hard drive in the process of failing.


I especially like the fact that I can change my drive from marginal/failing to perfect whenever I want. It must be magic.

I keep trying to resist reading this thread because of all the utterly ridiculous theories about failing hardware, but I can't help it. It's like looking at a car accident.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

It looks like the NR pushed some hard drives over the edge. Due to the increase in intense disk activity some are seeing, that's not surprising. Others hard drives are still hanging tough but are noisy.

I'm dusting off some cobwebs here. The first HR20-700s have a Seagate DB35.1, which is a Barracuda 7200.8 in disguise with "special" DVR firmware, as I talked about in a previous post. The first HR21-200s have a Seagate DB35.3, which is a Cuda 7200.10 with special DVR firmware. 

The 7200.8 was way louder (~10 dB) than the 7200.10, and also was less reliable. The 7200.10 was no reliability champ, either. Google "Seagate ST33000831" and look at all the data recovery centers that pop up. (I gotta admit that was weird)

In the 7200.8 and later models, the drive would check for sector errors when the drive was idle for more than 30-45 seconds. Lots of people complained about it. I'm not sure the DVR firmware has this "feature" enabled, though. It also should NOT appear during DVR playback, and since the DVR is usually recording something into the buffer 24/7, I'm not sure that it would ever get activated anyway. In theory, if this were the problem, putting the DVR in standby would make the noise happen more often.

The final wildcard here is that many times the drives have different firmware revisions (or different part substitutions) within the same model, and there's no real way to tell what impacts that would have. Since very few people post their HR2x model number, it's difficult to correlate any data. 

But the randomness of symptoms is expected. Some of these drives might be flailing but are whisper quiet, others may not be. Since they weren't flailing before, D* should fix that before this software kills more failing hard drives.


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## Vinny (Sep 2, 2006)

I voted yes.

I have 2. The HR20 is extremely loud and seems to be continuously busy.
The HR23 is quiet.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

My drive is perfect/silent under the heaviest load (playback during 2 simultaneous recordings) and fails/thrashes under the lightest. This is all about the last 2 NR's poorly managing non-playback tasks. The marginal/failing hardware theory is ludicrous.


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## Lanthom (Aug 6, 2008)

My HR21 is quiet but my R22 in the bedroom sounds like a jet engine taking off.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

All 4 of my HR 20 units have became noisier since that NR release. However the noise level is no worse than they were when new so its something that has been re-introduced. Operationally they are working and testing just fine.

Don "I'm thinking is subliminal Martian messaging myself" Bolton


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Woo hoo!!! FINALLY, they fixed it!!! THANK YOU, DirecTV! Disk is loud as ever (sorry, but you'll have to get used to that), but the freezes are gone! Hang in there for the next NR, guys and gals. Your patience will be rewarded. My thread got locked so I'm posting the good news here. Hope you see it before it gets deleted.

For you armchair quarterbacks who've never experienced the problem but seem to know all about it, let me put it another way. The magical marginal/failing/self-repairing hard drives have decided to repair themselves for good. Since we know D* developers never make mistakes, it had nothing to do with software of course, just an incredible coincidence.


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## mgroups (Apr 28, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Same temp at 126/7 for both.


My HR20-100 is currently 102 degrees with the room at 68 degrees. It has never been close to 126. It's about the same whether using eSATA or internal drive.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mgroups said:


> My HR20-100 is currently 102 degrees with the room at 68 degrees. It has never been close to 126. It's about the same whether using eSATA or internal drive.


A temperature of 35C to 45C (95 to 113 F) is ideal for hard drives. But anything between 25C (77F) and 55C (131 F) is fine -- the failure rates only double in the 25-35C and 45-55C ranges.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Rich, do you keep your DVRs on an open shelf or inside an enclosure?


Forgot to mention one 21-700 that I've been running in a closed cabinet since early last year. One large hole in the back of the cabinet, but the front door is closed and the temp runs at a steady 123 degrees. No noise whatsoever. I did this because I was curious about the heat issue. Been well over a year and no problems with the much higher temp than the 21s usually run at.

Stuck my head in the cabinet and not a sound.

Rich


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## bleggett29 (Feb 2, 2008)

My experience with this issue:

**Because of hearing loss, I can't tell you if my drive was/is any louder or not.**
**DVR with problem is a 3 year old HR 21-700. Have a 2nd DVR. A 1 year old HR 22-100 without problem.**
**I don't recommend anyone do what I did unless you know there is a possibility DTV would find out and you having to pay retail value of the DVR, etc**
Not exactly sure when or which firmware it stared but it was within the past 3-4 weeks. In the beginning, ever so often, when watching a recorded show there would be a pause(A/V would freeze and unit became un-responsive) that would last about 10-20 seconds. If it did happen, it only did it once for a 1 hour recording. After a week, the 10-20 second pause increased in frequency(happened 2-3 times per hour show) and also spread to live programming and MRV. Several days after that, I started to notice recorded shows had a skip in them and the DVR started to reboot itself at least once per day. I decided several days ago to start checking the HDD temps. When the DVR was functioning normal the temp was between 105 and 113 deg. F. Right after the problem occured the temp had risen to 118-125 deg. F. Monday night I decided(going against my lease agreement) to open the unit up and used compressed air to blow away any dust, etc. which may of accumilated. To my surprise, there was very little to blow away. Once inside I noticed how easy it would be to swap out the HDD. I did some research and learned I can simply swap in a new HDD and the unit would take care of the rest. So, for the sake of just doing it, I got a 1TB Western Digital Black(wanted a Green because of lower operating temps but could only find a 500GB) for $80 and put it in. It's been running flawlessly for the past 48 hours. Although I'm capable of doing so, I opted not to xfer the contents from the old HDD. Besides not having my recordings, I had to redo my SL's. No biggie--I got a working DVR and 3x the recording space. As expected, It is running a bit hot for my liking (115-118 deg. F) but at least I don't have to go through all the BS with the CSR's getting the unit replaced. Have my fingers crossed that it lasts at least another year.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bleggett29 said:


> Monday night I decided(going against my lease agreement) to open the unit up and used compressed air to blow away any dust, etc. which may of accumilated. To my surprise, there was very little to blow away. Once inside I noticed how easy it would be to swap out the HDD. I did some research and learned I can simply swap in a new HDD and the unit would take care of the rest.


As you noted, swapping the internal HDD violates your lease agreement with DIRECTV. DBSTalk in no way recommends that anyone do this. Quite the contrary. Please keep this in mind.


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## bleggett29 (Feb 2, 2008)

Doug Brott said:


> As you noted, swapping the internal HDD violates your lease agreement with DIRECTV. DBSTalk in no way recommends that anyone do this. Quite the contrary. Please keep this in mind.


Thank you, Doug. To make things clear for everyone else: I don't recommend anyone do this even if you own your equipment. The information posted, I hope would be useful to identify and eliminate the problem in the future.


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## christo76 (Sep 12, 2006)

Been trying to ignore the loud activity noises coming from the dvr hoping that new NR's would fix it, but now after a month+ its just annoying. I really notice it at times like right now, when the dvr is off and I have the computer displaying on the tv, so its quiet in here. The DVR sounds at times like its operating at 110%. If I run a defrag or virus scan or some other thing that I let use maximum resources on my computer, its sound much quieter that the DVR does.

Its really annoying during softer dialogue and I hear I. I have to keep peering thinking I am going to see the Activity light on my PC going nuts, but its sitting there quiet and its just the DVR. Even re-arranged the room, so I now sit about 16 feet away from the TV/DVR and still here it clear as day.

I have an HR20-700 that is as old as they come, so it could be the HDD but thats ridiculous if they can issue an NR that is gonna push it over the edge.

Another odd thing, is lately, if I hit the dash button, it says I have SWiM attached, but I don't.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> Stuck my head in the cabinet and not a sound.
> 
> Rich


 You'd have to stick your head in when it's "thrashing" or you'll think it never does. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" :lol:

It's not continuous. It happens at random times and sometimes lasts for long periods of time even when nothing is being recorded. It happens to all my HR's (they are all HR20's) and they ALL have had their drives replaced and the "thrashing" has not stopped. Well, it did for maybe 2 weeks then returned as bad as ever but that can't be discussed in this forum.

For those who say people stopped mentioning it so it means it got better, that isn't necessarily the case. Many people stopped discussing it because how many times can you repeat the same thing? Doesn't mean it went away. 

EDIT: A lot of people also think the "loudness" we are discussing is the normal "operating sound" of the DVR's hard drive. The issue in question is that the hard drive suddenly and randomly starts an excessive amount of activity (head thrashing). When it is not going through this period of "thrashing" it is perfectly and completely silent even while recording 2 shows. The fact it is inside a metal case and not very well "insulated" for silence makes it worse because the case amplifies the sound. My guess is it would be much less noticible in an external case.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

The attached MP3 file was just recorded next to my HR20-100 which sits about 12" from me. it was recorded using my IPHONE's VOICE RECORDER APP which is not very sensitive. The IPHONE generated "M4A" file was converted to an "MP3".

This HR20-100 has nothing recorded on it and was not in the process of recording anything (it's just a spare that sits mostly unused). This sound just started and has been going for around 10 minutes so far. This is the 2nd (different) hard drive that has been in this box both with the same sound.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

That's pretty much what mine sounds like. It's not any louder than it ever was just a lot longer duration of this activity which makes me more aware of it. When this is going on it affects live viewing as well as recorded playback - I will get a momentary video freeze and audio dropout sometimes accompanied by pixelation. One or two people have expressed some confidence that the new national release whenever it comes will correct this. I certainly hope so because this has gone on way too long.
John


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> The attached MP3 file was just recorded next to my HR20-100 which sits about 12" from me. it was recorded using my IPHONE's VOICE RECORDER APP which is not very sensitive. The IPHONE generated "M4A" file was converted to an "MP3".
> 
> This HR20-100 has nothing recorded on it and was not in the process of recording anything (it's just a spare that sits mostly unused). This sound just started and has been going for around 10 minutes so far. This is the 2nd (different) hard drive that has been in this box both with the same sound.


Huh, I've never heard any of my 12 HRs do that. Eight are 20-700s and lately have developed the urge to "seek" but not at that level of sound. My 21-700 are occasionally "seeking". This just started in the last week or so. I just got thru activating my latest 20-700 and it's silent.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

pappasbike said:


> That's pretty much what mine sounds like. It's not any louder than it ever was just a lot longer duration of this activity which makes me more aware of it. When this is going on it affects live viewing as well as recorded playback - I will get a momentary video freeze and audio dropout sometimes accompanied by pixelation. One or two people have expressed some confidence that the new national release whenever it comes will correct this. I certainly hope so because this has gone on way too long.
> John


I'm one of those "confident" people. I'm also wrong a lot, so you can take my opinion for what it's worth. :lol:

Rich


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> Huh, I've never heard any of my 12 HRs do that. Eight are 20-700s and lately have developed the urge to "seek" but not at that level of sound. My 21-700 are occasionally "seeking". This just started in the last week or so. I just got thru activating my latest 20-700 and it's silent.
> 
> Rich


Like I said, you have to be there when it happens. It's not continuous.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

I agree with TBlazer07's description. The mp3 soundbite resembles my sound too. Also, just because I have not bothered to complain about it here for a few weeks does not mean it has gone away.....no change whatsoever with my HR20-700. Still waiting for the next NR to see if it improves. I am interested (yet saddened) to read that - at least for this poster - replacing the hard drive(s) did not solve the problem. I think that we have heard from one or two other folks who replaced their DVR and no longer have the problem. 

TBlazer07 - do you also experience stuttering of video/audio on playback of recordings while the hard drive is being so active?


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

I have my HR22-100 with eSATA turned OFF, hasnt been turned on for three days. The eSATA drive light has been going crazy for 3 days now. What on earth could the receiver be doing? I have a HTPC as well, and even while recording a 1080i program, and rescanning all the import folders, the drive light doesnt flash as much as my HR22's.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Hopefully everyone gets a new National Release update some time soon, so that it might address this lingering issue for the folks who have had to deal with it.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

AntonyB said:


> I agree with TBlazer07's description. The mp3 soundbite resembles my sound too. Also, just because I have not bothered to complain about it here for a few weeks does not mean it has gone away.....no change whatsoever with my HR20-700. Still waiting for the next NR to see if it improves. I am interested (yet saddened) to read that - at least for this poster - replacing the hard drive(s) did not solve the problem. I think that we have heard from one or two other folks who replaced their DVR and no longer have the problem.
> 
> TBlazer07 - do you also experience stuttering of video/audio on playback of recordings while the hard drive is being so active?


Absolutely no stuttering. All I have are HR20's so replacing the HR20's with HR21's, 22'3. 23's might help but I want to keep my OTA.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hopefully everyone gets a new National Release update some time soon, so that it might address this lingering issue for the folks who have had to deal with it.


Do you know something we don't? I hope we can get a NR that would fix it. I did a secret society thing and while the a/v have all but disappeared as of 2 weeks ago, the thrashing is still there.



Davenlr said:


> I have my HR22-100 with eSATA turned OFF, hasnt been turned on for three days. The eSATA drive light has been going crazy for 3 days now. What on earth could the receiver be doing?


Virus


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mx6bfast said:


> Do you know something we don't? I hope we can get a NR that would fix it. I did a secret society thing and while the a/v have all but disappeared as of 2 weeks ago, the thrashing is still there.


I know they know about the reports, and I know they work to eradicate those kinds of things...that's what I know.

Since its been a while since the last NR, one might think another will be approaching some time in the near term.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

TBlazer07 said:


> Absolutely no stuttering. All I have are HR20's so replacing the HR20's with HR21's, 22'3. 23's might help but I want to keep my OTA.


Are these noises from the internal drives? A reason many of us may not be hearing the noise is our drives may be in external enclosures that are much quieter than when using the stock drive. I cannot hear any of my DVR drives over ambient noise in my house possibly due to the fact that they are all in MX-1 enclosures, and they have excellent noise dampeners, much better than any of my PCs or the the internal drives in the DVRs themselves. I can assure you my drive is working just as hard as the next guys, but I cant hear it due to the much quieter operation of the MX-1 enclosure.

I did notice that your in your mp3 that it sounded like your mouse clicks were louder than the hard drive seeking noise was....


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I've got one eSATA External Drive Enclosure and 5 other DVRs with Internal Drives and mine are very Quiet. I have one in my bedroom about 12 feet from me and I can't hear it at night so that is why it is hard for us to fully comprehend what might be going on.

I understand that they are experiencing loud noises from their DVR but why is a real mystery.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> I've got one eSATA External Drive Enclosure and 5 other DVRs with Internal Drives and mine are very Quiet. I have one in my bedroom about 12 feet from me and I can't hear it at night so that is why it is hard for us to fully comprehend what might be going on.
> 
> I understand that they are experiencing loud noises from their DVR but why is a real mystery.


I gotta feeling that a lot of those loud drives are shot. I had a problem like that with Cavalry eSATAs when I first started using eSATAs and quickly went thru eight of them in succession. Noisy as hell, but they all worked properly, by that I mean they recorded and played back properly, but there was no living with the noise they made. I took a couple apart and there was nothing wrong with the installation, just loud, really LOUD HDDs. The next generation of Cavalrys were noise free and I am still using one. Must be close to a year and a half old and still whisper quiet and has no fan.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

That is why I try to buy Quality Drives and I do not go cheap.

Just bought a WD20EADS today for $200 and it will be here tomorrow.

Bought an "OWNED" HR23-700 on Ebay also so I can install the WD20EADS in it and then I will have 4 Terabytes or 4,000 Gigibytes of Storage Capacity in my 2 HR23-700s so I should be ready to Rock n Roll.

It's hard to understand these people who have these noises and blame it solely on software when I have 6 DVRs of 3 different models, HR23-700, HR21-700 and 2 HR20-100s all which are so quiet I don't even know they are there.

However, I guess it's possible that under certain conditions with certain DVRs it could be causing these issues and loud drive noises.

Maybe Corrupted Guide Data, who knows. Hope they get it fixed with the next NR.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

CCarncross said:


> Are these noises from the internal drives? A reason many of us may not be hearing the noise is our drives may be in external enclosures that are much quieter than when using the stock drive. I cannot hear any of my DVR drives over ambient noise in my house possibly due to the fact that they are all in MX-1 enclosures, and they have excellent noise dampeners, much better than any of my PCs or the the internal drives in the DVRs themselves. I can assure you my drive is working just as hard as the next guys, but I cant hear it due to the much quieter operation of the MX-1 enclosure.
> 
> I did notice that your in your mp3 that it sounded like your mouse clicks were louder than the hard drive seeking noise was....


Yes, internal drives. I definately agree, that very well may be the key. I have 2 750gig and 2 1TB, all WD drives. I have had the "noise" with the stock drives as well. Also I believe it is mostly HR20's with the problem. I don't like using external drives (more cables to come loose, more boxes for my wife to bump when she dusts etc). I had these in MX1's long ago but went internal for reasons mentioned above.

Those clicks were not mouse clicks, they may have been my office chair which is quite loud.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hopefully everyone gets a new National Release update some time soon, so that it might address this lingering issue for the folks who have had to deal with it.


 Hopefully it might address the stuttering some folks are having that goes with the "thrashing" but I highly doubt it will address the "thrashing" itself.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

richierich said:


> It's hard to understand these people who have these noises and blame it solely on software when I have 6 DVRs of 3 different models, HR23-700, HR21-700 and 2 HR21-100s all which are so quiet I don't even know they are there.


Maybe because you don't have any HR20's ?

As for blaming it "soley on software" maybe because it was not happening for YEARS then suddenly started on all boxes within minutes of a specific update? Nahhh, that couldn't be it.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I made a typo and it was supposed to be 2 HR20-100s instead of 2 HR21-100s.

I just corrected my post.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Maybe because you don't have any HR20's ?
> 
> As for blaming it "soley on software" maybe because it was not happening for YEARS then suddenly started on all boxes within minutes of a specific update? Nahhh, that couldn't be it.


I've got four 20-700s with 1.5 internals (all owned) and the other day I reported that they started stuttering (seeking?), but that has stopped and all are quiet now. Just bought another 20-700, picked it up last week and it is eighteen inches from my head on a shelf and I can't hear anything coming from it. I'm on the verge of buying one of the 5900RPM Seagate 2TB Barracudas. I've seen one post that lauds them and read numerous reviews that revile them. Anyone else got one? Amazon's got them for $179 right now.

By the way, what are the HDDs seeking? I can sorta understand PCs reaching out and seeking "something", but what does an HR "seek" and why can't it find whatever it is "seeking". (If you're gonna answer this question, please use language that I can understand. Telling me the extrapolation of the interpolation is causing the waveguide to deflect the framistan means nothing to me. There must be a simple answer that everyone can understand.)

Rich


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

rich584 said:


> By the way, what are the HDDs seeking?


While I will be the first to say I have no idea what the DVR drive is doing when it is thrashing, I suspect it has something to do with guide data and/or indexing that data.

As I have stated many pages back, I can imagine the following: guide data comes into the DVR bit by bit 24 hours a day. Some of that data is new and is written to the hard drive. Every 2 hours (ish, maybe 3 or 4 hours?), a job starts that reindexes the guide data (so that searching can be faster). While it goes thru 900(?) channels of guide data for 12 to 14 days, it may also be recording two HD programs and playing back a previously recorded HD program. Combine all that together and you get the noise I have described.

Note: The thrashing happens even when nothing is recording, but we know that the current channel is being buffered, so that could still cause the heads to jump from one part of the drive to another over and over again.

Also, all the DirecTV tests I've run on the drive have come back clean. I've cleared guide data multiple times. Usually, after the guide data is cleared, the thrashing goes away for 24 hours or so. That makes since if there is that much less guide data to index every (x) hours.

However, many state that their HR20-700 units don't have excessive noise. So, I really think it is a combination of a specific hard drive (brand/model/firmware) that is causing all the noise.

My $0.02 worth... while I wait for DirecTV to quiet my drive.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

MattWarner said:


> While I will be the first to say I have no idea what the DVR drive is doing when it is thrashing, I suspect it has something to do with guide data and/or indexing that data.
> 
> As I have stated many pages back, I can imagine the following: guide data comes into the DVR bit by bit 24 hours a day. Some of that data is new and is written to the hard drive. Every 2 hours (ish, maybe 3 or 4 hours?), a job starts that reindexes the guide data (so that searching can be faster). While it goes thru 900(?) channels of guide data for 12 to 14 days, it may also be recording two HD programs and playing back a previously recorded HD program. Combine all that together and you get the noise I have described.
> 
> ...


+1


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I've got four 20-700s with 1.5 internals (all owned) and the other day I reported that they started stuttering (seeking?), but that has stopped and all are quiet now. Just bought another 20-700, picked it up last week and it is eighteen inches from my head on a shelf and I can't hear anything coming from it. I'm on the verge of buying one of the 5900RPM Seagate 2TB Barracudas. I've seen one post that lauds them and read numerous reviews that revile them. Anyone else got one? Amazon's got them for $179 right now.
> 
> By the way, what are the HDDs seeking? I can sorta understand PCs reaching out and seeking "something", but what does an HR "seek" and why can't it find whatever it is "seeking". (If you're gonna answer this question, please use language that I can understand. Telling me the extrapolation of the interpolation is causing the waveguide to deflect the framistan means nothing to me. There must be a simple answer that everyone can understand.)
> 
> Rich


It happens randomly at random times so there is no way to really say "it never happens" unless you sit in front of all of them most of the day. Unfortunately I have a lot of free time on my hands. 

I firmly believe it is indexing data most of which you don't see at this time. It's not really "seeking" specific data but (IMO) it's "indexing" (ordering) lots of data, like if you have a database with 25,000 entries and need to resort them by ascending date rather then descending date.

That's why I never use the term "seeking" but use "thrashing." Seeking might be construed as looking for data which it can't find due maybe to a bad hard-drive while "thrashing" is just the hard-drive indexing LOTS of new data it has just obtained from DirecTV.

The sound of a hard drive that is having "seeking" problems, IMO, would be quite different then the "thrashing.' Seeking would be more repetitive with the same sound over and over because it can't read a bad sector.


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## rmullin (Sep 6, 2007)

Thrashing, indeed. Both of our HR20's make loud thrashing noises day and night, whether in use or not. And of course it happened just after the last software "upgrade" so I guess the thrashing is just an undocumented feature.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> I firmly believe it is indexing data most of which you don't see at this time. It's not really "seeking" specific data but (IMO) it's "indexing" (ordering) lots of data, like if you have a database with 25,000 entries and need to resort them by ascending date rather then descending date.
> 
> The sound of a hard drive that is having "seeking" problems, IMO, would be quite different then the "thrashing.' Seeking would be more repetitive with the same sound over and over because it can't read a bad sector.


Then, why don't I have this problem with my 6 DVRs?

Why are there alot more of us not having this problem by far if it is simply doing a job of indexing Guide Data. I don't hear this problem on any of my DVRs so there has to be something else going on.

Maybe because your Guide Data is Corrupt and maybe has to be reloaded?

Who knows but if it was simply Directv software indexing code then we would all be having this problem.

This is a very strange anomaly.


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## labatt79 (Jan 16, 2008)

I just recently noticed the noise of my HR20-700. Same as some others, it makes the thrashing noise even when it isn't recording anything or even playing any recorded shows. Using the internal hard drive, but haven't tried clearing the guide. That will be the first thing I do.


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## kd4ao (Jun 12, 2004)

My HR20-600 continues to be noisy as well. I expect one day the Hard Drive will just die.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

richierich said:


> Then, why don't I have this problem with my 6 DVRs?
> 
> Why are there alot more of us not having this problem by far if it is simply doing a job of indexing Guide Data. I don't hear this problem on any of my DVRs so there has to be something else going on.
> 
> ...


I beleive you said you did NOT have any HR2*0*'s
Maybe that's the reason. All mine are HR20's. MAYBE 21,22,23,24's are better sound insulated or have different hard-drives.

#1) MAYBE some people are not there to hear it (since it happens at random times). Right now mine have been silent for hours but will start rocking and rolling sooner or later, guaranteed.

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does that mean it didn't make a sound?

#2) MAYBE some people have their boxes where it is muffled or covered so they don't notice it (cabinet, closet etc).
#3) MAYBE for some people it isn't as noticable.
#4) MAYBE it doesn't happen to everyone (or MAYBE everyone doesn't care).
#5) MAYBE it doesn't affect those with external drives. Lots of folks here have them.
#6) MAYBE it is all a figment of my imagination. :grin:

As for "reloading guide data," mine, like yours, is reloaded every Friday night at 11PM. What is a problem for some is not necessarily a problem for everyone. Just because some people notice a vibration while driving a car down the road doesn't mean it isn't there, it may just be it is more "irritating" to some people and not others.

Just because YOU don't have the issue doesn't mean that others don't and also doesn't mean everyone else's receivers are broken. I have 3 and they all do it. They did it with the stock drives and with replacement internal drives. OR Maybe I'm just lucky.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

MattWarner said:


> While I will be the first to say I have no idea what the DVR drive is doing when it is thrashing, I suspect it has something to do with guide data and/or indexing that data.
> 
> As I have stated many pages back, I can imagine the following: guide data comes into the DVR bit by bit 24 hours a day. Some of that data is new and is written to the hard drive. Every 2 hours (ish, maybe 3 or 4 hours?), a job starts that reindexes the guide data (so that searching can be faster). While it goes thru 900(?) channels of guide data for 12 to 14 days, it may also be recording two HD programs and playing back a previously recorded HD program. Combine all that together and you get the noise I have described.
> 
> ...


Thanx, Matt. That was simple and easy to understand. I'm one of those who have multiple HRs, eight 20-700s, three 21-700s and one 21-200 and have never heard that "thrashing" sound. I did get some of what I think of as "seeking" noises, those low stuttering sounds that were so prevalent on the TiVos, but that seems to have cleared up and I did hear it on both 20-700s (two units) and one 21-700 (one unit).

I never heard these sounds before and I got my first HRs in the middle of November of '06. I have mostly new HDDs, either external or internal (I own five 20-700s). These sounds were first reported after the DLB NR. Prior to that I had never read a post that mentioned HDD "thrashing".

One of the reasons I have been so happy (well, you know) with the HRs is their silence. To have that disrupted is something I don't want to endure again.

I use Seagate Barracuda HDDs in all my HRs and they have been quiet and have run very well. I can't speak to your statement about some HDDs making noise. As far as I know all my HRs have Seagate internals, I know the ones that I have put 1.5TB internals in had the small Seagate drives in them. Don't know about the 21-700s or the 20-200. I've never heard the "thrashing" and would probably consider that a "bad" HDD. I've had HDDs that clanked and banged and actually wobbled from the clanking and banging, but all of them did record and playback properly. So, I don't agree with all the people that think just because the HR plays and records with a "thrashing" HDD that the HDD is not at fault.

In the three years + that I have been using HRs, every NR did not cause problems. Most were solid and did no harm. I don't really believe that 368 caused any harm. The one before it, the DLB NR wrecked two eSATAs of mine and I have suffered thru the A/V dropouts and pixellations that I thought we would never see again. As have most of the members. I have great hope that the next NR will solve this problem.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> It happens randomly at random times so there is no way to really say "it never happens" unless you sit in front of all of them most of the day. Unfortunately I have a lot of free time on my hands.


One of the members has a quote by Rogers Hornsby that says something like "in the winter I sit a the window and wait for spring". I know exactly what that means. I can't wait for March so I can begin hitting baseballs again. Anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is that during the winter months I'm always around my HRs. I'd hear those thrashing sounds if mine were doing it. I have eight 20-700s spread all over the house and none of them do it. Believe me, I'd have heard it by now.



> I firmly believe it is indexing data most of which you don't see at this time. It's not really "seeking" specific data but (IMO) it's "indexing" (ordering) lots of data, like if you have a database with 25,000 entries and need to resort them by ascending date rather then descending date.


So why don't mine make that noise? Mine are all "loaded" with SLs and are usually at about half full.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

rmullin said:


> Thrashing, indeed. Both of our HR20's make loud thrashing noises day and night, whether in use or not. And of course it happened just after the last software "upgrade" so I guess the thrashing is just an undocumented feature.


Please, please tell us your complete HR's model number when posting. For instance HR20-100 or at least 20-100. This is not just for you, the poster I am replying to, but to all those who post.

Thanx,

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Believe me, I'd have heard it by now.
> 
> So why don't mine make that noise? Mine are all "loaded" with SLs and are usually at about half full.
> 
> Rich


That is The Million Dollar Question!!!

Also, Blazer, I corrected my post to mention that I have 2 HR20-100s (not HR21-100s) so if you read my post or my corrected post you would have known that I had corrected my statement as I had to go upstairs to look and verify exactly what the model # was.

I am here most of the time and I never hear it. I sleep with a HR21-700 12 feet from my head in top of a dresser and I NEVER EVER have heard it and neither does my wife so something peculiar is going on with you setup.

I believe you can hear it and you must believe that I don't hear mine.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> So why don't mine make that noise? Mine are all "loaded" with SLs and are usually at about half full.
> 
> Rich


 I dunno ..... you're obviously one of the chosen ones. :lol: It remains one of those unanswered mysteries of life.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

richierich said:


> Then, why don't I have this problem with my 6 DVRs?
> 
> Why are there alot more of us not having this problem by far if it is simply doing a job of indexing Guide Data. I don't hear this problem on any of my DVRs so there has to be something else going on.
> 
> ...


I've already stated that different model hard drives were used in different model DVRs. I've even stated that the HR20 hard drives are noisier in general.

I've already stated that same model hard drives have different firmware versions in them which can affect performance or noise.

This means that the different DVR models could behave differently, and that even DVRs that are the same model can behave differently.

And that's just hardware. People have different to do lists, subscriptions packages, season passes, etc., so it's guaranteed that the tasks each DVR is performing is unique at any given moment. Since it's a closed system, it shouldn't be THAT hard to track down. Since they are using Linux, though, it won't be easy.

Considering there were no posts last year about hard drive noise, and suddenly many people are complaining about it, AND everyone in the country didn't simultaneously get new DVRs, then a software change plus other unknown factors have triggered something. Not everyone has the unknown factor(s), or everyone would be complaining about it.

This kind of bug happens all the time in Windows, why is it a stretch to apply it to Linux?


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Please, please tell us your complete HR's model number when posting. For instance HR20-100 or at least 20-100. This is not just for you, the poster I am replying to, but to all those who post.
> 
> Thanx,
> 
> Rich


+1! Also, if there's a way to post WHEN the DVR was manufactured, that would help.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> I dunno ..... you're obviously one of the chosen ones. :lol: )


You know, alot of people have been telling me that lately so I am now starting to believe that maybe, just maybe, I am One of the Chosen Few!!! :lol:

Thanks for sharing that with me as now I know.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

bobcamp1 said:


> +1! Also, if there's a way to post WHEN the DVR was manufactured, that would help.


 That's a good point. It may be as simple as the way they mounted the hard drives in the case that is "amplifying" the sound which would otherwise be muted.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> I've already stated that different model hard drives were used in different model DVRs. I've even stated that the HR20 hard drives are noisier in general.
> 
> I've already stated that same model hard drives have different firmware versions in them which can affect performance or noise.
> 
> ...


Bob, I've got 20-700s that were made in Mexico. You cannot find an older HR than that and they are all silent. I also have a few 20-700s that are "younger" and made in China. All are silent.

I agree that the problem began with the DLB NR that preceded 368. I think that that should be obvious to anybody with some degree of common sense. As you said, we all didn't get new DVRs at the same time that NR came out.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> +1! Also, if there's a way to post WHEN the DVR was manufactured, that would help.


I think every HR has a date on the bottom that tells you when it came off the line. I really don't think that age has anything to do with the problems we are seeing. At least I've not seen anything that would lead me to think that age has anything to do with the problems. I will say this: After taking apart five owned 20-700s, the way they are put together is rather appalling. Of the five, I've had three with loose screws holding the HDD in place and one of them had a screw laying on the mother board. Properly tightened screws rarely come loose and certainly not in three out of five HRs.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> That's a good point. It may be as simple as the way they mounted the hard drives in the case that is "amplifying" the sound which would otherwise be muted.


I can tell you this: When properly installed as an internal, the HDD is very well mounted. Much better than the TiVo's HDDs were and better than any eSATA that I've had apart and that includes the MX-1s. The one I had with the screw laying on the mother board didn't have a snug screw in it and the HDD made a lot of noise. When I installed the 1.5 internal, the noise went away as I expected it to.

Rich


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> That's a good point. It may be as simple as the way they mounted the hard drives in the case that is "amplifying" the sound which would otherwise be muted.


Just a data point for you guys. My HR20-700 that had noticeable drive noise had it's drive mounted at 4 points. All were tight and had rubber grommets. Two were metal screws and two were plastic clips. So I'm pretty certain it was mechanically isolated. The noise would have been dampened by the grommets. The drive in question was a Seagate DB35.1 300GB Model ST3300831SCE, Firmware 3.03, Date Code 06344 (whatever that means - maybe 2006, week 34, day 4).

In any case, my noise went away a few weeks ago with a certain software release.

Bottom line is we need to wait and see what the next NR brings before we start blaming the hardware.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> That's a good point. It may be as simple as the way they mounted the hard drives in the case that is "amplifying" the sound which would otherwise be muted.


Not only would the DVRs be in the same lot and made the same way, but the hard drives (and other parts) that were put into them are also probably the same models/revisions and from the same lots. That's not guaranteed due to refurbishing, but there should be enough of a correlation to help focus in the problem.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I think every HR has a date on the bottom that tells you when it came off the line. I really don't think that age has anything to do with the problems we are seeing. At least I've not seen anything that would lead me to think that age has anything to do with the problems. I will say this: After taking apart five owned 20-700s, the way they are put together is rather appalling.
> Rich


It's not about aging components, but about what parts were used during the assembly, how they were assembled, and who assembled that specific DVR. Since some people within the same model have the issue and some don't, I think lot to lot variation may be the culprit.

Hard drives don't get noisier as they age, unless they are failing. I think something about the newer NRs is causing a previously latent problem to become active. Hard drives try to keep quiet, but most will temporarily sacrifice noise for speed when needed. Some hard drives are better at this than others, and some can even remain quiet under the most stressing conditions. Cudas are known to get a little loud under stress, but D* is using "special DVR firmware" for them, so that may affect their noise. Whether it's for the better or for worse I can't tell.

(FYI, a loose mount generates a constant buzz or hum. That's not consistent with this "new" noise.)


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## dochase (Nov 28, 2005)

One of my machines is loud as well. I can tell it is seek noise. I have been researching replacing w a bigger drive anyway. Can you use any of the newer hard drives, or are there drives specific to DVR's?


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm no expert, but I just picked up a plain old cheap seagate 500GB (double the recording time of the stock drive) and it's working fine. However it was quite painful to replace in my HR20-700. All the screws are torx, and you have to remove the front panel as well, which is tricky. I've read it's much easier to replace the drive in an HR20-100. You'll find a couple of detailed threads about the process. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone open their DVR and void the warranty


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

dochase said:


> One of my machines is loud as well. I can tell it is seek noise. I have been researching replacing w a bigger drive anyway. Can you use any of the newer hard drives, or are there drives specific to DVR's?





mdavej said:


> I'm no expert, but I just picked up a plain old cheap seagate 500GB (double the recording time of the stock drive) and it's working fine. However it was quite painful to replace in my HR20-700. All the screws are torx, and you have to remove the front panel as well, which is tricky. I've read it's much easier to replace the drive in an HR20-100. You'll find a couple of detailed threads about the process. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone open their DVR and void the warranty


Hope those are owned and not leased units - otherwise - prepare to pay a fee some time in the future for violating the warranty.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

Originally Posted by MattWarner :
"_While I will be the first to say I have no idea what the DVR drive is doing when it is thrashing, I suspect it has something to do with guide data and/or indexing that data. _"

Originally Posted by bobcamp1 : 
"_People have different to do lists, subscriptions packages, season passes, etc., so it's guaranteed that the tasks each DVR is performing is unique at any given moment. Since it's a closed system, it shouldn't be THAT hard to track down. _ "

Both good comments in my opinion, and in line with what I've been thinking in trying to reason why only some subscribers are experiencing this problem.

Perhaps we should be posting not only the specific DVR model numbers, but also other variables such as geographic location, whether we have locals off the satellite, whether we have OTA, and what other packages we subscribe to.....these would all influence the content of the guide data. Perhaps there is a common thread.....somewhere.

In my case: Northeast, Boston/New Hampshire locals from both SAT and OTA, HD channels, Total Choice Plus.

Also - the On-demand capability performs unsolicited downloads at random times (even when not "demanded" by the user!) and perhaps may cause some juggling of data on disk as a result. I did try removing my HR20 from the internet for several days as an experiment, but that made no difference, so the thrashing is not related to the actual download itself.

Antony.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hope those are owned and not leased units - otherwise - prepare to pay a fee some time in the future for violating the warranty.


Have you ever seen anyone report they had been penalized for swapping out a hard drive? Me neither. From the number of DOA DVR's I've gotten from D*, it's pretty obvious they never even look at them before passing them onto the next guy. I'm sure the D* police have better things to do than punish loyal customers who improve their hardware at their own expense.


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## dochase (Nov 28, 2005)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hope those are owned and not leased units - otherwise - prepare to pay a fee some time in the future for violating the warranty.


Both are owned HR20-100s. Purchased from craigslist AFTER confirming that they were owned. Wanted used HR20s because of the built in OTA.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Hope those are owned and not leased units - otherwise - prepare to pay a fee some time in the future for violating the warranty.


 Oh C'mon ... those scare tactics are getting real old already.  A "do it at your own risk" disclaimer is perfectly understandable or maybe even a "technically or even legally possible" to be charged but far from "prepare to pay." You'd think at LEAST one person who was charged would have posted somewhere here in the 3 or 4 years since they started leasing if that were the case. They post when they get overcharged by 10cents so you'd think SOMEONE would post they were charged $500 for returning a receiver that was opened. Sure they absolutely CAN charge, but have they?


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## David MacLeod (Jan 29, 2008)

lets not get into this whole prove or disprove penalization this again please.
it got ugly last time.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dochase said:


> One of my machines is loud as well. I can tell it is seek noise. I have been researching replacing w a bigger drive anyway. Can you use any of the newer hard drives, or are there drives specific to DVR's?


Don't know what kind of HR you have (really would make this simpler if everyone would get in the habit of calling their HRs "HR2x-xxx or just 2x-xxx. Not all drives work with all HRs). I can tell you that Seagate Barracudas with a spindle speed of 7200RPM will work with 20-700s and 21-700s and WD EADS HDDs will work with 23-700s. That I know for sure since I have 11 Seagate Cudas added to my 20-700s either externally or internally. *RichieRich* uses the WD EADS in/on his 23-700s.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mdavej said:


> I'm no expert, but I just picked up a plain old cheap seagate 500GB (double the recording time of the stock drive) and it's working fine. However it was quite painful to replace in my HR20-700. All the screws are torx, and you have to remove the front panel as well, which is tricky. I've read it's much easier to replace the drive in an HR20-100. You'll find a couple of detailed threads about the process. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone open their DVR and void the warranty


Those "torx" screws you mentioned are Torx security screws and you need Torx security wrenches to remove them. Amazon sells a kit full of them in many sizes for about $15.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Oh C'mon ... those scare tactics are getting real old already.  A "do it at your own risk" disclaimer is perfectly understandable or maybe even a "technically or even legally possible" to be charged but far from "prepare to pay." You'd think at LEAST one person who was charged would have posted somewhere here in the 3 or 4 years since they started leasing if that were the case. They post when they get overcharged by 10cents so you'd think SOMEONE would post they were charged $500 for returning a receiver that was opened. Sure they absolutely CAN charge, but have they?


I agree with you, but I really think it's foolish (no offense meant) to post about opening a leased HR and modifying it on the open forum. That's a subject that belongs on PMs or email.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I have a WD20EADS showing up on my front door step today as a matter of fact to install in a brand new Owned HR23-700 which should be here within a week also.

I have a WD20EADS in my other HR23-700 and it as worked Flawlessly for 6 months or so.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

rich584 said:


> Those "torx" screws you mentioned are Torx security screws and you need Torx security wrenches to remove them. Amazon sells a kit full of them in many sizes for about $15.
> 
> Rich


Thanks for the tip. Don't know why, but the ones on mine were plain old torx (thank goodness), so the standard bits I already had worked fine. Even though mine's only 500GB, I'm loving the extra space. richierich's 2TB must be amazing.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mdavej said:


> Thanks for the tip. Don't know why, but the ones on mine were plain old torx (thank goodness), so the standard bits I already had worked fine. Even though mine's only 500GB, I'm loving the extra space. richierich's 2TB must be amazing.


So was my 2TB before the DLB NR wrecked it. The Torx screws didn't have pins in the holes? Never seen that. Those screws are made so that ordinary Torx screws won't work. The security Torxs have a hole in them to accommodate the pins.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

It is AMAZING and after next week I will have Two HR23-700s each with a 2 TB WD20EADS in it. I will then have about 8,000 Gigabytes spread among my many DVRs and I can't wait for the next NR which should be on January 8 timeframe depending on how long it will take to roll it out Nationally.

It will probably be a Slow National Rollout though, at least that is where I would put my money if I were a betting man.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

rich584 said:


> So was my 2TB before the DLB NR wrecked it. The Torx screws didn't have pins in the holes? Never seen that. Those screws are made so that ordinary Torx screws won't work. The security Torxs have a hole in them to accommodate the pins.
> 
> Rich


I honestly don't know. I could barely see when I did it (black screws and very little light in the corner I was working in). All I know is my regular torx bit worked well enough to get them out. I got my DVR second hand years ago on ebay. Some of the screw heads were already stripped before I ever touched them. So they may not even be the original screws for all I know.

That really sucks about your drive. Do you think the current NR can still wreck a drive?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Some DVRs require the Torx Security Screwdriver and some don't. I have 2 that do and 2 that don't. I have 4 others but haven't checked them since they are leased.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mdavej said:


> I honestly don't know. I could barely see when I did it (black screws and very little light in the corner I was working in). All I know is my regular torx bit worked well enough to get them out. I got my DVR second hand years ago on ebay. Some of the screw heads were already stripped before I ever touched them. So they may not even be the original screws for all I know.


I gotta admit that I never tried a "regular" Torx wrench on any of the HR20-700s that I have opened up. I do know that with a pair of side cutters you could probably get them loose enough to take out, but it's so much easier with the "security Torx" set that I've never had to try.



> That really sucks about your drive. Do you think the current NR can still wreck a drive?


I think that eSATA was the first 2TB that was filled all the way up and dropped off unsaved programs to make room for more. On the forum, I mean. We were trying to make a point with the TenBox folks.

Nah, I think 368 is a pretty passive NR, as are most of them. The one that preceded it, the DLB NR is the one that caused the problem. That's one of the problems you face when you use eSATAs. I've lost a few to NRs over the last three years. But it's infrequent and as I said, most of the NRs are solid. I do wish that we'd get some sort of warning before an NR, something like "The northeastern states will get the new NR this weekend." Then I'd turn off my eSATAs and just let the HRs absorb the NR.

I don't think I've ever had a problem with an internal HDD following an NR. But, I guess a warning would be too much to hope for.

Rich


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## PortlandSpartan (Oct 4, 2006)

Yes. Annoyingly loud. This is a HR20-700. Recently moved it into the bedroom and have had to get up in the middle of the night and unplug it a couple of times because the disk was so loud. It's only a matter of time until I toss the piece of junk out the window.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

PortlandSpartan said:


> Yes. Annoying loud. This is a HR20-700. Recently moved it into the bedroom and have had to get up in the middle of the night and unplug it a couple of times because the disk was so loud. It's only a matter of time until I toss the piece of junk out the window.


Can't you just replace the internal drive?

Do you OWN it?


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## PortlandSpartan (Oct 4, 2006)

richierich said:


> Can't you just replace the internal drive?
> 
> Do you OWN it?


You can actually OWN DTV stuff?

I purchased it at Best Buy circa 2006 when I initially signed up with DTV.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Yes you can OWN an HR2X Directv DVR?

Most people just lease them but I own several DVRs.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

richierich said:


> Yes you can OWN an HR2X Directv DVR?
> 
> Most people just lease them but I own several DVRs.


How much does that cost?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> How much does that cost?


Depends on which model you want. *RichieRich* prefers the 23-700s and I prefer the 20-700s. I own five of them and the prices have ranged from $125 to $213 not including shipping. If you want more specific info, feel free to PM me.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Depends on which model you want. *RichieRich* prefers the 23-700s and I prefer the 20-700s. I own five of them and the prices have ranged from $125 to $213 not including shipping. If you want more specific info, feel free to PM me.
> 
> Rich


Actually, I don't like anything that begins with HR20. I've got an HR20-700 that I am going to take out of my system and replace with an HR23-700 with a 2 TB WD20EADS.

However, whatever works, gets the job done.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

My wife and I have had it with the hd-dvr in our bedroom. It has woken us up the past 3 nights grinding away. D* is sending me a replacement and should get it by the end of the week.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> My wife and I have had it with the hd-dvr in our bedroom. It has woken us up the past 3 nights grinding away. D* is sending me a replacement and should get it by the end of the week.


The problem seems to have been a little worse of late, as has the associated stuttering on playback. What happened to the new NR that some folks have suggested will fix this? I'd been hoping for a software fix for this problem. If not, then I will have to say goodbye to the HR20-700 with its integrated OTA....or buy an external drive with my own funds, just to keep the HR20.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> The problem seems to have been a little worse of late, as has the associated stuttering on playback. What happened to the new NR that some folks have suggested will fix this? I'd been hoping for a software fix for this problem.


I've used the new software on another HR20, and this particular one that I'm returning, and the thrashing is still there but the a/v stuttering has gone away. This particular HR20 I put back to NR the middle of last week after there hadn't been any improvement.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> The problem seems to have been a little worse of late, as has the associated stuttering on playback. What happened to the new NR that some folks have suggested will fix this? I'd been hoping for a software fix for this problem. If not, then I will have to say goodbye to the HR20-700 with its integrated OTA....or buy an external drive with my own funds, just to keep the HR20.


We're closer to a new NR than before .. I would not be shocked to see it start rolling out this month, but I do not have a time table yet.


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## christo76 (Sep 12, 2006)

I called Directv, to complain about the issues I have been having since the hard drive noise issues started. It has gotten much worse lately, with video/audio hiccups, especially if I pause and use the DLB.

Rather than have me quit (which I would if I have to pay for a new receiver), they are sending out a service tech, free of charge, to "troubleshoot" and replace my receiver if needed.

My question is.... Is there a good chance the new NR will fix the problem and should I just wait it out, or are the new recievers much better anyways?

I have an HR20-700 and use the OTA inputs ALOT, so I don't really want a receiver with no OTA input. Granted, they did say they would supply the off-air tuner unit, but I have no idea how well those have been working.

Anyone here have experience with OTA built-in vs add-on unit?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

christo76 said:


> I called Directv, to complain about the issues I have been having since the hard drive noise issues started. It has gotten much worse lately, with video/audio hiccups, especially if I pause and use the DLB.
> 
> Rather than have me quit (which I would if I have to pay for a new receiver), they are sending out a service tech, free of charge, to "troubleshoot" and replace my receiver if needed.
> 
> ...


Based on Doug's post...it would appear a new firmware update is not far away, but its your choice whether or not to wait.

As for a "new receiver"...they may very well replace what you have with a refurbished unit - which will likely work just fine - but won't necessarily be a newer model number.

Given you basic satisfaction with the OTA on the HR20-700 you have, and potential for an update in maybe the next couple of weeks...it might be worthwhile to wait. Your decision (as always).

Oh yeah....go Brewers.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the update on the NR, I will wait it out. I do remain rather skeptical that the stuttering is fixed if the thrashing continues unabated in this release....we shall see.


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## pappasbike (Sep 19, 2006)

I've been anxiously awaiting this new update to see if it improves my issue. It would take about a week for me to tell for sure; if I don't hear those frequent bursts of HD activity and don't see or hear those audio and video breakups I'll consider it cured. If not I will push for a replacement.
John


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

pappasbike said:


> I've been anxiously awaiting this new update to see if it improves my issue. It would take about a week for me to tell for sure; if I don't hear those frequent bursts of HD activity and don't see or hear those audio and video breakups I'll consider it cured. If not I will push for a replacement.
> John


Yes, I agree. In my case, a good test case is to record and watch MPEG-2 material, like an OTA HD show, or channel 76. If I was able to watch 2 hours of MPEG-2 programming every night for a week with no stuttering, then I would declare it fixed.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

I'll confirm what someone posted earlier. Unless something changes in the next couple of weeks, you will probably find (like I did) that the thrashing noise will continue in the next NR. Its frequency and duration haven't appeared to change. What has changed is glitching that occurred during the thrashing had almost disappeared. I say almost because I still do see it from time to time, but the glitch lasts for, maybe 1/2 second instead of the 3-4 seconds it lasted before. Much more tolerable and seems to happen less frequently as well.

I do hope they will address the thrashing drives at some point, but I wouldn't hold my breath for the next NR. But, I'd really like to be proven wrong! 


My $0.02 worth.


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## jes (Apr 21, 2007)

*Yes*
The disc noise itself is as expected, however the disc activity has recently increased... Did D* add or update the defrag routine? Obviously the more I use the system and the less free space I have, the harder a defrag routine has to work... Disc noise is the reason I don't have a DVR in the bedroom...

IMHO D* need to make standby a true standby... Spin the drive down and set a sleep timer for the next record event, minus 1 minute. Sort of the same way the old VCR record function used to work...


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

Received NR (0x395) tonight. Hard drive is as loud as before. Actually it might be even worse as the disk activity is much higher. Will check watch it for a day to see if it settles down any but nitial impressions do not show any improvement at all.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

sonofjay said:


> Received NR (0x395) tonight. Hard drive is as loud as before. Actually it might be even worse as the disk activity is much higher. Will check watch it for a day to see if it settles down any but nitial impressions do not show any improvement at all.


 Same here. All 3 of my boxes remain the same. I think we'll just have to get used to it.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Can you insulate the unit so it is not as loud???


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

richierich said:


> Can you insulate the unit so it is not as loud???


Yes, I moved the one in my bedroom into a closet and and closed the closet door. The other 2 I sat on 1" foam pads it it helped a bit.


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

Received 0x395 last night. No effect on the noise level.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

Call Directv and complain and get a New Replacement DVR!!! 

I would have done that long time ago because I am just not as Patient as you Thrashers!!! :lol:


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

mx6bfast said:


> My wife and I have had it with the hd-dvr in our bedroom. It has woken us up the past 3 nights grinding away. D* is sending me a replacement and should get it by the end of the week.


So a week into this new HR20 guess what I heard yesterday morning at 6 am? I am either the most unlucky guy when it comes to these, as that makes #4 thrashing, or there is something with the software causing this.

The new NR on all 3 has not made any improvements as I mentioned before from doing CE. In fact it has gotten even worse. I can watch a live program, and then either go back and watch it again, or come back to it to catch up and there is a high # of a/v drops like I dropped the signal. But, I had a strong signal the entire time and watched it live with no issues.

This is literally turning into a POS.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Since a new firmware version is rolling out...perhaps its time for an updated poll?


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

mx6bfast, what kind of DVRs do you have???


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

Dan B said:


> Received 0x395 last night. No effect on the noise level.


Yes, they didn't fix the noise and likely never will. But the video freezes should have gone away in this release. So if you still have freezes and/or can't live with the noise, you should pursue getting a replacement DVR or hard drive. I did the latter at my own expense ($40 for 500GB) since I didn't want a new commitment and wanted to keep my HR20 for it's OTA capability. That doubled my recording capacity from the stock drive and took care of the noise issue. Plus I can cancel as soon as U-verse comes to my street and get 40 more HD channels D* doesn't feel like carrying (I know D12 is supposed to take care of that, but I'll believe it when I see it).


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since a new firmware version is rolling out...perhaps its time for an updated poll?


Perhaps wait until the release has completely rolled out and everyone has had 48 hours to fully download all the new guide data.

Also, I wonder...of those people that have the thrashing, do all their DVR (if they have more than 1) thrash? I've seen a couple of posts where it seems like those that have the problem have it will all their DVRs? If that is consistant, that might help pinpoint whatever may be causing the problem.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

richierich said:


> mx6bfast, what kind of DVRs do you have???


2 HR20-700, 1 HR20-100. The 100 was the one that was replaced last week which started thrashing again.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> 2 HR20-700, 1 HR20-100. The 100 was the one that was replaced last week which started thrashing again.


All HR20s, huh?

After reading all these posts, I sense a pattern. I don't know if this would make the new poll way too complicated, but adding in model numbers for the DVRs would help.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mdavej said:


> So if you still have freezes and/or can't live with the noise, you should pursue getting a replacement DVR or hard drive. I did the latter at my own expense ....


What's the model number of the noisy hard drive you took out?


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> What's the model number of the noisy hard drive you took out?


HERE are the details.


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

DogLover said:


> Perhaps wait until the release has completely rolled out and everyone has had 48 hours to fully download all the new guide data.
> 
> Also, I wonder...of those people that have the thrashing, do all their DVR (if they have more than 1) thrash? I've seen a couple of posts where it seems like those that have the problem have it will all their DVRs? If that is consistant, that might help pinpoint whatever may be causing the problem.


We have an HR20-700 which is loud, and 2 R22s which do not make any noise.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Thread reset .. Continue discussion in new thread please:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=171784


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