# I think E is about to have a crisis



## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Fact is I believe its already in full swing.

Their inept, overworked clueless software group is trying to cope with
replacing nearly all the receiver models at once.

I hear the 921 is having more software problems and may be delayed futher. Of
course they can always do what they have done in the past and ship them with
known unworking software

But now its troubles all over. 921, 811, 322, 522, heck the only stable current
box is the 510. Even the now discontinued 721 has some serious bugs since the
latest software download. The 310s appear OK, with only minor issues/

Software trying to cope with so many problems at once might be a good thing.
Sometimes things need a full blown collapse to get fixed Perhaps someone at
Dish will decide its time to fix that department.

If they dont do something fast were going to be watching bug reports from all
the new models.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Their inept, overworked clueless software group is trying to cope with
> replacing nearly all the receiver models at once.


Bob,

I know some of the people in DISH's software group and NONE of them are inept or clueless. Over worked, yes, but that is the corporate culture at DISH as it is in MANY companies now days.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish by your constant blasting of DISH employees. If you wish to post your problems about service, fine, but your constant putdowns of some good people at DISH who are working their tails off is getting very, very old.

You have been saying for many, many months that you are going to drop DISH but you keep coming up with excuses why you aren't switching. Your latest excuse is that you are waiting for a new subscriber deal on DirecTV's HD TiVo model. New models are very seldom discounted and you know that and a year from now you will likely STILL be posting excuses why you haven't switched. If DirecTV does have a discount on TiVo HD receivers you will come up with some other excuse why you are switching. Some of us believe that you won't switch because then you won't have reason to complain (and Bob likes to complain).

Bob, if you are THAT unhappy with DISH switch NOW and be done with it and STOP saying things about people that you know nothing about.

The deals on the DirecTV TiVos are very good and might not get better than they are now.


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## JBKing (Mar 23, 2002)

I'm confused.... Is this a new crisis, or are we still talking about the merger crisis, or maybe even the PVR fee crisis?


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Bill, my bad attitude is because my $500 721 requires at least once daily rebooting. Somehow after a nearly YEARS DELAY the promised software upgrade causes the remote to quit working on the guide and rebooting is the only way to watch tv

Ok I am not being nice to the software team. But dont I have good reason? Admittely clueless and inept was a bad phrase. SORRY!

I will revise that to say incapable of producing stable software for whatever reasons...................

On my D conversion, and BTW I told a nice E tech rep this last night I have to get a tree here trimmed a lot or removed. I absolutely dont want the dish on my roof. I got a price of $600 and were really broke. Honestly our finances are in crisis mode at the moment. I suggested to jen we go back to cable for awhile and we E Bay our E system a 721 and 2 508s. certinally no one that knows me would want to buy my boxes

Because of the $$$ issues lots of stuff is on hold.

As i told a buill collector you want my van? It has 370,000 miles on it. This is NOT the time for unnecessary spending. 

She said she cant survive with a PVR


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

JBKing said:


> I'm confused.... Is this a new crisis, or are we still talking about the merger crisis, or maybe even the PVR fee crisis?


new crisis watching E introduce a entire line of buggy products all at once.


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## boba (May 23, 2003)

Bob I switched to Directv in July I got three receivers free and installation free( of course I am the dealer of record so I got paid for it). In August I used the FFDVR promotion to get a TiVo for $99.00. Now if you sold you buggy 721 on Ebay could you get at least $200 for it? If you could you just paid for your TiVo and three receivers. I haven't had to reboot my Tivo in two months of usage. If you need more hard drive space Tivo can be easily upgraded and with specials on Hard Drives can be done relatively cheaply. Stop complaining and do something you already know DISH isn't going to help you.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

boba said:


> If you sold your buggy 721 on Ebay could you get at least $200 for it.


Lately, 721s are selling for between $450-$530 on eBay.



boba said:


> Stop complaining and do something. You already know DISH isn't going to help you.


I agree, DO something.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

jen wants a high def tv, and thats not in the budget. charging with her motto debts fine everyone has debt dont worry about it is what got us to where we are today

Thus I refuse to spend anything right now, it would lead to more overspending.

You have NO IDEA how bad this is. I am thinking about a 2nd job to try and survive. new system is at the bottom of the list right now....


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## kstevens (Mar 26, 2003)

Hey, this topic was started by Bob, do you expect anything else but complaints?



Ken


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

Bob, if you're in that dire of a financial situation, why are you spending $60 a month or whatever on satellite TV? At the very least, you could eBay all your Dish equipment for $400 or so then sign up for D* on one of the free installation/$99 Tivo deals and have about the same monthly bill and be a few hundred bucks ahead. Or if you can't get D* because of the tree, get cable for a few months and use the money from you Dish equipment to trim the tree.

And no offense, but if you're really in that dire of a financial situation, your wife needs to get a clue and realize that there are more important things in life than a PVR, like paying the mortgage and putting food on the table.

Dennis


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## bdlitzne (Feb 7, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> jen wants a high def tv, and thats not in the budget. charging with her motto debts fine everyone has debt dont worry about it is what got us to where we are today
> 
> Thus I refuse to spend anything right now, it would lead to more overspending.
> 
> You have NO IDEA how bad this is. I am thinking about a 2nd job to try and survive. new system is at the bottom of the list right now....


Bob,
1). Let Jen know who wears the pants in the family.
2). Borrow your neighbors chain saw and cut down tree.
3). Get a second job if you have to. Be happy you have a van.
4). Ebay your equipment if you're not happy with it.
5). Stop all unecessary spending. 
6). Stop worrying.

Bern :wizardhat


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## mattyro (Nov 26, 2002)

I have never,not once,not ever turned on,turned off,rebooted, re-shoed, or re-anythinged my 2 year old SA Tivo. Why is that?? Is there something about satellite technology that doesnt interface with Tivo well? Heck, I used my SA with a blaster for my Hughes Gaebo-- not a problem whatsoever. I was shocked to hear that a Directivo had to be rebooted. Then again I was at TIVO Community and its obvious Tivo is not the stable, trouble-free units we think they are.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Actually, I've never had any trouble with any of my equipment... 721, 501, 301, 5000, 2800, 3800, UTV.

Bob wants something for nothing. Please don't feed the trolls, because that is what he is.


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## JustinK (Sep 2, 2002)

Well put Neil


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Bob, the only crisis and nightmare around here is *you*.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> Bob wants something for nothing. Please don't feed the trolls, because that is what he is.


Bingo. We have a winner. He is obviously not satisfied whith the multitude of problems he has caused for people on this board in the past and is attempting to cause more.

Solution... Sell ALL your Dish stuff. Get a free D* system. Chop down the tree. Use the wood for heating the house in the winter, thus saving more $$. Then go make a pest of yourself somewhere else.


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## DishDude1 (Apr 13, 2002)

I am really sick of bob's posts.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Call me a pest, nuisance or whatever. You have to admit others are having the tech problems I appear to discover first. Truly E has made me what I am today.

I will drop this for now. Hopefully the new boxes will come out on schedule and be stable with the features everyone agrees should be there right out of the box.

But if theres lots of complaints and troubles about the new boxes it will not be from me for two good reasons. We dont have the bucks and besides I will not invest in any new E equiptement.

For everyones sake I HOPE I am wrong, but has E EVER introduced a bug free PVR from the first introduction? I heard things arent going well


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Richard King said:


> Bingo. We have a winner. He is obviously not satisfied whith the multitude of problems he has caused for people on this board in the past and is attempting to cause more.
> 
> Solution... Sell ALL your Dish stuff. Get a free D* system. Chop down the tree. Use the wood for heating the house in the winter, thus saving more $$. Then go make a pest of yourself somewhere else.


HEY, THE PROBLEM WASNT ME! I wasnt breaking any rules. I feel bad about scotts departure but even Chris said it wasnt my fault!

Scott got way to chummy with dish and lost his objectivity. I reported problems and he accused me of making them up. Untill others reported the same. Things like endless reboots.

As I said I dont remain where I am not wanted and offered to leave permanetely. If you want touchy feely dish is great, well I used to provide that before things got to where they are today.

How does the discussion of a possible future problem cause trouble here?


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> How does the discussion of a possible future problem cause trouble here?


Because it is coming for YOU. Bob, you are like the boy who cried "wolf" one too many times. Everyone is tired of it. When you start threads like this you DO look like a troll.

Bob,

Not to tell you how to run your life, but if I was having financial problems one of the first things that I would get rid of is satellite service (or downgrade if you can only get TV via satellite). It IS a luxury. The second thing that I would get rid of is that overpriced AOL service you use. If you REALLY need internet access there are other providers that are less than half of what you are paying a month. Tell your wife to stop watching so many cooking programs and get a job and help out with the finances.


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## Jerry G (Jul 12, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> Call me a pest, nuisance or whatever.


OK.



> Truly E has made me what I am today.


No. You made youself into what you are today. And as a result, regardless of what you might end of being correct about, you have zero credibility in my eyes.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Ouch!!! :blush:


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## xgrep (Aug 15, 2002)

DishDude1 said:


> I am really sick of bob's posts.


I'm not. This one (and some others) didn't do much for me, but Bob is generally considerate of others here. No fair blaming E* engineers for mgmt decisions, though.

x


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## dmodemd (Jul 5, 2002)

The problem is that Dish management has shifted into an out of control strategy to develop numerous parallel product lines with an ever increasing array of software functions.

- Open TV - what a freakin' waste. I either want to watch TV or play games/get info. If I want to do the latter I will use a computer which can do it 1000 times better!

- They are trying to juggle too many product lines... 50x, dual tuner PVRs, dual tuner dual output PVRs and non-PVRs, HD PVR... They havent even gotten the 721 right and now the 522 comes out making it obsolete - before all the features it was designed to have are finished! DSL, keyboard, etc...

This is as much as a major equipment manufacturer, not a satellite provider. Their engineering dept is just not aligned for this magnitude of work and Charlie has unrealistic expectations. They need to slow down and ease up. I know they are afraid the Tivo/D* partnership is going to eat their lunch but they just need to keep up not get ahead of them. And it only takes a couple products to keep up.

Maybe they should consider outsourcing their product development to a company that does that for a living!

Lee


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

Amen.


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## speedy882001 (Dec 17, 2002)

They tried that with Microsoft. What a waste of a product that was.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually MS only supplied the OS if I am not mistaken. Dish still did the Application work. However, I would say picking MS for a realtime embedded software at that time was a bad choice at a minimum.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Actually MS only supplied the OS if I am not mistaken. Dish still did the Application work.


The DishPlayers have two OSes. MSN does the changes to their OS and the Echostar does the changes to their OS. The big problem is that the two OSes have to "talk" to each other in real time and because DISH did not release information to MSN (according to information from some former employees) "there were a few problems" (that must be the understatement of the decade).


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Boy that is not how I heard it.. Wasn't Dish at one time threating to sue MS, because of realiability issues with there embedded OS. Memory is fading here. is DP on Windows CE or the embedded NT? Either case this was attempted when MS was just trying to get into the space. 

As for Two OSs? This does not make a lot of sense to me..... I would figure that Echostart would write the application on top of MS's embedded OS? 

by application I mean a piece of software that runs on top of an Operating System. I would be surprised if it was anything other than that.. Maybe I am wrong here. What you seem to describe is a joint collaberation to produce a embedded application. This does not jive with how MS works and does not make a lot of sense to me. 

This almost sounds like the confusion running around on JVC and Dish's relationship.


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## Bill R (Dec 20, 2002)

DISH still has a pending law suit against Microsoft. It takes YEARS to get thing like that through the bogged down court system. The OS was neither Windows CE or embedded NT. As one time, the plans were to go to Windows CE but it was too big of a memory hog and too slow.

The DishPlayer and its OSes are not what you think and I got my information from some "insiders" (who are now outsiders). You got to remember that the design of the DishPlayer goes back to 1997 (it was released in May, 1999). I'm sure if it was being done now it would be as you say, one OS and applications running on top of that. That is the way the 721 is. The OS is LINUX and there are applications running on top. The weather feature that they added Oct. 13th is one of those applications and just one example of what can be done on a box like the 721 and 921 in the future. The OS on the 921 is also LINUX and the HD stuff is just another "wrapper" around the OS.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Interesting Bill. I was not aware of this and find this very interesting. Odd thing for MS to embark in, but maybe this was a way of building up expertise in an area without at lot of MS risk. 

Anyway.. Starting to diverge here.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Did you read today about the stock price drop and E missing the holiday season because of product introduction delays?


You laughed at me here but I was all too accurate.

The good news this mess will definetely get charlie to pay LOTS of attention to this departmnent which needs a major overhaul.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bob, 

The fact that E*'s Stock dropped due to outlook forcast does not equate to the number of product releases combined with bug ridden software resulting in product delays. Think you are stretchen it abit and no the sky is not falling. It however might be a indication of an overall slowdown of new subs. Will be interesting to see how Hughes does on its next Q report. 

Stock drop does not equate to company demise... Just my opinion.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well the delayed new models equaled the loss of the holiday selling season.

Caused by the inability of the software group...........

Thats my point. In no way did I ever say this would kill the company.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Bob,

Delayed Product Release != Inability of Software Group.

I work in a company whose product is currently delayed and a number of this issues are not software at all. So making this jump is a bit far. Software tends to be the last in the queue because it is hard to do software without stable hardware. <<< But that is not the point >>>

Well I guess I should have stated...

Stock drop does not equal company crises. <<Sorry I miss spoke>>>


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## dbronstein (Oct 21, 2002)

They made $35 million and added 285,000 subscribers last quarter. <sarcasm>Sounds like a company in crisis to me.</sarcasm>

Dennis


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

The numbers werent nearly as good as expected, D beat E for the first time in a long time. Charlie admitted he didnt do a good job.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> The numbers werent nearly as good as expected, D beat E for the first time in a long time. Charlie admitted he didnt do a good job.


that doesn't sound like a company in crisis to me. Yeah, they have some problems. Most companies go through phases like that. But if you're still making money.... well I don't think I'd be worried about the sky falling. I'm not a cheerleader for E* - but I think they are stronger than you think. It's what they do to address the problems which will make or break the company. I would not throw in the towel on E* just yet.


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## Mike D-CO5 (Mar 12, 2003)

I think that Charlie better get his loose ends tied up before Rupert gets control of Directv next year. 

He better come up with some good solid working software for all of his receivers. He better put a fire under his engineers to get the new receivers out as soon as possible. I think he better think seriously of buying Tivo or their software and using their software in his dvrs. Namebased recordings and season passed are what people want. This is also what will even out the playing field between directv's dvr and Dish's dvr. 

He better learn to delegate some of the tasks to qualified people but better also follow up on them to make sure they are doing the tasks asked of them. In short he better get a clue to what are Dish's weaknesses and work to minimize these and maximize Dish's strengths. 

You can't go on NOT LISTENING TO YOUR CUSTOMERS FOREVER!! These message boards on these sat topics are a microcosim of what the average satellite - literate customer thinks. Notice , I didn't say average Joe 6-pack customer. If Dish and Charlie would listen and address the concerns , bugs, questions, that some of these board members talk about, then we could be the best publicity that Dish could ever have. Good word of mouth on the reliability of receivers and their software, the ease in use of their dvrs, etc , could be the biggest boost that Dish could ask for. Think of all the new customers we could bringing for Dish, if as a company they addressed these problems and corrected them once and for all. 

When a company gets as big as Dish is now it is time to delegate to qualified subordinates some of the day to day things and add accountability to these subordinates also. But this company should never forget that word of mouth through customers and retailers is what built Dish in the first place. Never forget that they are your boss. Without them Dish Network would be a bunch of useless satellites in space waiting to be sold to the highest bidder. 

It's time to spend the money to address these and all problems out there once and for all and make your long time customers out there happy. Happy customers spend more and tell more people about said service. And of course unhappy customers tell twice as many people out there churn and tell all that can listen about bad service and so on and so on..... :soapbox:


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well said, besides good bug free software would save big bucks on csr support


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Mike D-CO5 said:


> I think that Charlie better get his loose ends tied up before Rupert gets control of Directv next year.


Ok, Ill bite. I'm curious why you think Rupert getting control of D* would be good for D* or for the customers. They seem to be doing very well right now without him. And Direct tv as part of Ruperts "empire" could ultimately be bad news for those switching from Dish to Direct TV.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

Bob Haller said:


> Well said, besides good bug free software would save big bucks on csr support


I agree that good, bug free software would be great - its called quality. I would also like my netscape software to be bug free (its not - persistent email bug), I would like my Pinnacle video editing software to be bug free (its not), not to mention the weekly updates to fix holes in Windows, ... etc. Buggy software is epidemic in the US. Its not just a Dish problem. And I can't honestly say my current Dish loads are that bad.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Yeah but by all reports here E bugs are epidemic while D bugs are mostly minor and most bug fixes dont generate new ones.

I am glad we have two companies to compare...........

Never thought I would say that


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

pjmrt said:


> I agree that good, bug free software would be great - its called quality. I would also like my netscape software to be bug free (its not - persistent email bug), I would like my Pinnacle video editing software to be bug free (its not), not to mention the weekly updates to fix holes in Windows, ... etc. Buggy software is epidemic in the US. Its not just a Dish problem. And I can't honestly say my current Dish loads are that bad.


Give Mozilla or Firebird a try.. You will find them more stable than Netscape and tab browsing rocks!!! As for bugs.. There is no software in the world that is bug free. Some are better than other and it is not just a US problem.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2003)

WeeJavaDude said:


> Some are better than other and it is not just a US problem.


I've had a TiVo DVR since August, 2000. It has worked flawlessly the whole time.

I have also owned an ExpressVu 5100 DVR since February of this year (Equivalent to the 501). I have to reboot it every couple of weeks.

I've owned numerous DISH Network receivers since 1996. They've all had software bugs and hardware "issues" that have resulted degraded performance or worse.

Some ARE better than others.


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## Bob Haller (Mar 24, 2002)

Well E had microsoft to blame for the dishplayer bugs. They have no one to point a finger at with all the later models since they are all in house.


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## Neil Derryberry (Mar 23, 2002)

Bob Haller said:


> Yeah but by all reports here E bugs are epidemic while D bugs are mostly minor and most bug fixes dont generate new ones.
> 
> I am glad we have two companies to compare...........
> 
> Never thought I would say that


I'm not neccesarily a E* cheerleader, but the bugs found in some E* receivers are not epidemic. My 721 works just fine. You should just take the plunge and go to D* instead of choosing to do nothing. You've got options, and you choose to give yourself and others an ulcer over your inability to make a decision.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Jaspear said:


> I've had a TiVo DVR since August, 2000. It has worked flawlessly the whole time.
> 
> I have also owned an ExpressVu 5100 DVR since February of this year (Equivalent to the 501). I have to reboot it every couple of weeks.
> 
> ...


Intersting Data point. I have had my 2 508s for about 8 months and have not required to reboot them. My understanding is that the 501 seemed to have some stability issues. Guess the point here is that mileage may vary. I can't speak towards the TIVO since I have no personal experience.


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## pjmrt (Jul 17, 2003)

ditto here - I have a 721, a dishplayer 7200 and a 301. I had to reboot the dishplayer after the last s/w download - otherwise have not rebooted anything in the last several months. The bug seems selective on which machines it picks on. Hey - Dish discovers the Smart Bug!


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