# Should DirecTv Lessen the EDID Restrictions for Watching 3D Content?



## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Currently it appears that DirecTv is requiring some stringent EDID requirements in order to watch content in 3D. For instance in many cases you can not connect an A/V Receiver between your 3D capable HDTV and your DirecTv receiver even if the A/V Receiver is 3D compliant. DirecTv is only supporting 3D if the 3D HDTV is hooked up directly to the DirecTv receiver. Most early adopters of technology such as 3D are A/V enthusiasts who own A/V Receivers and therefor this restriction does not make sense.

Their are also several of us who own 3D ready Samsung DLP HDTVs who have bought the Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Converter and a Gefen HDMI Detective in order to watch 3D content. The EDID restrictions appear to be causing problems when watching 3D content on our HDTVs. Sometimes we can watch the 3D content and then sometimes it shows as not available. The 

Furthermore, some users have reported problems regarding 3D where they can watch pre-recorded content on their HDTVs but then their 3D HDTV tells them their TV is not 3D capable when they try to watch live 3D content.

Many of these problems are not occurring using 3D blu-ray players and other set top boxes to watch 3D. Therefore, DirecTv must be doing something with the EDID information that is preventing several 3D HDTV owners from enjoying 3D content on their HDTV. 

If a person does not own a 3D capable set then they can not watch 3D content. Therefore, having such limiting 3D EDID restriction seems counter productive to the ultimate goal of promoting 3D programing and content. What do you think?


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.

(See the history of DVD-Audio for another Hollywood SNAFU)


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.
> 
> (See the history of DVD-Audio for another Hollywood SNAFU)


If someone can explain that one to me then I am all ears. I understand HDCP and other requirements because of copy protection but how do EDID restrictions benefit anyone?


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

Is DirecTV's method stringent? Are other systems having a problem?

You have a TV that is not supported by DirecTV. You have purchased other equipment to make it work... I am not being argumentative here, but could it be the presence of everything you are using that is causing the problem?

If a TV is supported by DirecTV, and an AV receiver is 3D compliant, does it work? If it does, then DirecTV is doing nothing wrong in its implementation of EDID.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

OK, I have a little more information on this today. In addition to the EDID for 3DTV, there is also something called a Vendor Specific Infoframe (VSI). The A/V Receivers will impact both of these. 3D is not supported via A/V Receivers because most of them are not supporting 3D cleanly (despite claims). You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.

The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Geaux - You're possibly not seeing the reason for this - it's to protect intellectual property rights. I'm betting it's required by Hollywood.


I'm confused by this as well. Why would Hollywood impose restrictions on which make/model TV you view this content on? Even if they did, why would they want people using an "approved" TV to not be able to pass the signal through their surround sound receiver?

This whole situation is the biggest mess. It's as if no one really put any thought into how all this might work. DirecTV has dedicated the bandwidth for three 3d channels, yet doesn't appear interested in making it easy for those who may want to watch it. Currently, the biggest potential market for this content is going to be those who have 3d ready DLP displays which have been being sold for the past three years. But these sets require an adapter to work with the new 3d standards. The adapter is required to be directly connected to the TV. But DirecTV requires the adapter to be directly connected to the DVR. Put those two together, and you can't pass the signal through an AVR (unless you use the optical/coaxial/analog connectors, which have their own caveats). The people who may be interested in 3d are much of the same people who would have their video gear connected to good sound systems. So who are they marketing these channels to?!?

I read of one guy who had a 2010 Mitsubishi DLP, which has built in support for SBS and top/bottom formats, and therefore doesn't need the adapter. But DirecTV didn't add his TV to "the list", so they say he has to buy and connect the adapter, which he doesn't even need for his TV! :nono2:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

There's "restrictions" and there's "compliance"

The two are not mutually exclusive nor necessarily the same. The HDTV manufacturers own their part of the choices made in determining a technology in their equipment. That industry also struggles to adopt standards, resulting in further skewing of tech deployment.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.


How so? My understanding is that DirecTV receivers are the ONLY ones that don't allow you to view HD content even if a 3d display isn't detected. Some just don't care, and some offer a workaround. If DirecTV is the only 3d source that can't play through all these various receivers, why is it the receiver's fault?


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> OK, I have a little more information on this today. In addition to the EDID for 3DTV, there is also something called a Vendor Specific Infoframe (VSI). The A/V Receivers will impact both of these. 3D is not supported via A/V Receivers because most of them are not supporting 3D cleanly (despite claims). You really need to be talking to whoever made the A/V Receiver.
> 
> The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


Doug,

I am a loyal DirecTv customer. I just started this poll and thread not as an attack on DirecTv put to provoke discussion and exchange of information. However, why are all of these restrictions in place and what purpose do they serve? I understand HDCP protection but I do not understand this one. Additionally, from reading posts it appears that many others are only having problems with their equipment when using DirecTv equipment. Are the engineers working on this or do you have any more information. Thanks.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> How so? My understanding is that DirecTV receivers are the ONLY ones that don't allow you to view HD content even if a 3d display isn't detected. Some just don't care, and some offer a workaround. *If DirecTV is the only 3d source that can't play through all these various receivers, why is it the receiver's fault*?


...and yet many can view their 3D just fine....so the receiver manufacturers DO have *some* responsibility in adopting standards. Unfortunately, those same manufacturers often contribute to fighting any standards.

The same things happen with "HDMI compatibility", where some HDTVs support HDMI v1.1, others 1.3, others 1.4, and so on. When attached devices don't work....who owns the problem?

My contention is the audio/video manufacturing industry itself that promotes and encourages a mentality of ever-changing and inconsistent "standards". It sells more equipment....it also creates more problems and confusion.

The best that can be expected is for DirecTV to support as many variations of audio codecs, signal formats, etc as they can within reason. That still will not guarantee 100% compatibility.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Doug,
> 
> I am a loyal DirecTv customer. I just started this poll and thread not as an attack on DirecTv put to provoke discussion and exchange of information. However, why are all of these restrictions in place and what purpose do they serve? I understand HDCP protection but I do not understand this one. Additionally, from reading posts it appears that many others are only having problems with their equipment when using DirecTv equipment. Are the engineers working on this or do you have any more information. Thanks.


I've told you what I know .. I don't have any way to test this out myself as I do not have a 3DTV. Also, DIRECTV very rarely shares with me details of their Engineering process or other decisions.

As for "are they working on this?" My guess is that DIRECTV is following all of the specifications to a T including the VSI bit and that the AVR vendors are not. This may be something necessary for what DIRECTV is doing but not required for other sources. I really don't know. Will TOSLink for audio and HDMI out to the TV not work?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

LarryFlowers said:


> Is DirecTV's method stringent? Are other systems having a problem?
> 
> You have a TV that is not supported by DirecTV. You have purchased other equipment to make it work... I am not being argumentative here, but could it be the presence of everything you are using that is causing the problem?


Just to explain the issue to those who don't have it: DirecTV has a list of 3d TVs they support. They determine whether or not you have that TV based on the EDID info that is passed back via the HDMI connection. If you don't have that TV, *OR *if you have something else in the chain in between the DirecTV receiver and the TV that produces it's own EDID info (like many receivers and splitters), then the receiver will not allow you to tune to a 3d channel. So to answer your question, yes, it could be the presence of other gear that is causing the problem, because DirecTV has designed the system to not allow that gear. Gear that is common to home theater setups.

Other sources may give you a warning but still let you turn on 3d output, but DirecTV just gives you a message that your TV isn't 3d capable (even though it may be), and won't let you watch it. Others require a workaround. Like the PS3, which requires that you connect your 3d device to the PS3 ONCE, then once it knows you have it, you can connect it normally through your receiver, and that mode will stay enabled.

I'm still failing to see the benefit to _anyone _for locking these channels out. Even if you don't have a 3d TV, if you tune to it, you just see a picture with the image duplicated on the left/right side of the screen. Pop up a warning and say that it won't look right on a non-3d display. What's the harm?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and yet many can view their 3D just fine....


Of course. Those who don't use a reciever, and those who have a reciever that just passes along the EDID of the TV rather than having one of it's own. And _maybe _those who have a receiver that DirecTV has added to their list (though there aren't any receivers on their public list).


> so the receiver manufacturers DO have *some* responsibility in adopting standards. Unfortunately, those same manufacturers often contribute to fighting any standards.


Just to be clear here, this has NOTHING to do with standards. This is not equivalent to an HDMI handshake issue, where something should work, but standards weren't implemented properly, etc. DirecTV is not even allowing 3d mode to turn on, so there is no evidence this has anything to do with standards or compatibility. This is ONLY about DirecTV's choice in how/if they enable 3d. There is, however, evidence that IF they would allow it to turn on, that it would work just fine. Some have bought HDMI spoofers to make the DVR _think _that it's connected to a device off of their list, and that worked. And there was a day where they accidentally left one channel enabled. It worked for people on that day too.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Just curious: for those who voted "the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good"... WHY is it good?


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.


So what would make someone believe this has _anything _to do with "Hollywood" or any kind of copyright/licensing issue?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Will TOSLink for audio and HDMI out to the TV not work?


Just to answer this one, it will work, but not without potential pitfalls. In my case, my receiver has some audio and video processing circuits (Audyssey room EQ, an internal scaler, etc.). These features do cost processing cycles, and the output from the receiver is delayed relative to the input. I can turn features off, but the delay remains constant. So if video goes straight to the TV, but the audio goes through the receiver, they are no longer in sync. I also have a splitter downstream of my receiver so I can distribute a/v throughout the house (that way during TV parties if you pause/ff/etc, all rooms are in sync). I also like to use the scaler in my receiver for 480/720p content, as it's better than what's in my TV and in the DVR. Also, today's AVRs have more HDMI connections, but shrinking toslink connections. This last one I could work around by some shuffling, but the others I don't want to.

I can buy an HDMI detective fix this issue, but that's just plain silly to have to spend another $100 on a device just to trick the DVR into thinking I have something that is already there!


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

DarinC said:


> Just curious: for those who voted "the EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv for watching 3D content is good"... WHY is it good?


My guess is that some who voted no did so simply because they perceived the thread as an attack against DirecTv and its current policy. Some members of DBS.talk are very protective of DirecTv to an extent that some may say makes them yes men. This thread is only intended to foster communication, gather information, and for healthy debate.

Interesting enough, the initial no votes came in one big wave all at once and the rest of the votes in the poll have taken place at a much slower pace.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> My guess is that DIRECTV is following all of the specifications to a T including the VSI bit and that the AVR vendors are not.


That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

FWIW, Fios does not even block 3D for non-3D TVs. I can watch the one 3D on demand program and see two pictures side by side just fine. I am working on blinking really fast.

They do not autoadjust for 3D. They tell you to turn 3D on on your TV.

I think it is because DirecTV wants 3D to be seamless.


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## netraa (Mar 28, 2007)

Well, it seems that equipment suppliers have 2 choices.

1. they do what Directv has done, Here is a list, we WILL work with that list when you are connected the way we specify, we are adding additional equipment to that list that WILL work and that is where it is.

2. They do what some of the others have chosen to do, We do support 3d, your tv might work, your av might work everything might work, if it doesn't work, call the maker of the component that doesn't work or change it to something else that might work, but we don't know if that is going to work either. we do 3d but we don't guarantee anything with work with anything else in your system with our piece. 


Directv has decided to go with what they can guarantee will work and save themselves the grief of potentially 18,000,000 people coming up with billions of combination of equipment to support.....

realistically, it's tens of thousands of sets with tens of thousands of possible combos of equipment with sets built on various stages of standards that are still evolving. 

As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method. For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us. 

Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.

I guess, my personal opinion is.... this is the price to pay for being on the bleeding edge. just ask the people out there that got EDTV's.... 

Is this the right thing to do... I don't know but as a tech, the 3d calls we get now are hard enough to solve, i don't want to be out on calls where i'm having to tear into your media room guessing what part of your system is the one that's breaking things.

it is their bat, ball, and field.....


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> My guess is that some who voted no did so simply because they perceived the thread as an attack against DirecTv and its current policy. Some members of DBS.talk are very protective of DirecTv to an extent that some may say makes them yes men. This thread is only intended to foster communication, gather information, and for healthy debate.
> 
> Interesting enough, the initial no votes came in one big wave all at once and the rest of the votes in the poll have taken place at a much slower pace.


I am not sure I can agree with this conclusion. I see another side to this. I have always read your posts regarding the 3D issue.

Some facts:
1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault. 
3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?

One of the reasons I have been so vocal in my oposition to this whole 3D mess is just what we have here.

Before anyone did anything with 3D, they should have established one system, one set of standards that all manufacturers complied with.

Something else you should know. Some gentlemen who have been my friends for over 25 years are in the Home Theater business. They will tell you point blank that the audio companies have turned HDMI switching into one of the biggest messes they have ever experienced. Even the most high end manufacturers have failed utterly in compliance with specifications. These guys have no DirecTV axe to grind... they won't even install sat systems.. but they put the blame squarely where it belongs... on the audio manufacturers heads.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

netraa said:


> Well, it seems that equipment suppliers have 2 choices.
> 
> 1. they do what Directv has done, Here is a list, we WILL work with that list when you are connected the way we specify, we are adding additional equipment to that list that WILL work and that is where it is.
> 
> ...


My guess is that the current system would cause you to receive more calls.

Customer: Hey, I spent thousands on a 3D HDTV, a 3D A/V Receiver, and I can't watch 3D.

Tech: Sir, we only support 3D from your receiver to your 3D HDTV.

Customer: What do they sell 3D receivers for then?

Tech: Accept your EDID fate like a man and be happy.

Customer: Why can some of my neighbors get a funny picture on their non 3D HDTVs and I get nothing but a message telling me my 3D equipment can't handle 3D.

Tech: A glitch in the Matrix, sir.

Customer: This is glitching ridiculous.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

LarryFlowers said:


> I am not sure I can agree with this conclusion. I see another side to this. I have always read your posts regarding the 3D issue.
> 
> Some facts:
> 1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
> ...


Larry,

Yes, I have a vested interest in getting DirecTv to improve their restrictive EDID restrictions like many other 3D adopters.

The 3D picture from DirecTv on my HDTV has been stunning when it worked although why they keep on showing so much live music on N3D is beyond me.

I do agree with you regarding HDMI and some of the problems it can cause. However, HDMI on my equipment does what it is suppose to do over 90 percent of the time.

For anyone who is curious, my complete 3D setup is listed here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1265912

The EDID restrictions imposed by DirecTv are clearly affecting a lot more set ups than just mine. I would hope that DirecTv would have a vested interest in making 3D as compatible with as many of its customers equipment as possible. I believe that is all that I am asking for as well as others.

I stand by my earlier comments.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new.. Come talk to me in 5 years, when it might have begun to show real market penetration in view-ship, and all manufactures will have had 2 or 3 real generational changes in their lineups of equipment, then see how many issues of this nature we have.

Anyone else remember hop the first 2 to 3+ generations of hd sets only worked with their specific hd decoder boxes and not other manufacturers? Same thing here...


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

inkahauts said:


> I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new.. Come talk to me in 5 years, when it might have begun to show real market penetration in view-ship, and all manufactures will have had 2 or 3 real generational changes in their lineups of equipment, then see how many issues of this nature we have.
> 
> Anyone else remember hop the first 2 to 3+ generations of hd sets only worked with their specific hd decoder boxes and not other manufacturers? Same thing here...


I certainly don't remember that. When was it exactly that there were special converter boxes? Pretty much every box I have seen (and I started seriously researching HDTV in 2000 and bought an HDTV in early 2001) had component or DB15 out and every TV accepted that. It was only when DVI and HDMI started up that there began to be incompatibilities between sets and boxes.

As far as 3D. If you wait 5 years, no one will care because it is a gimmick that Hollywood is already starting to see reduced returns from. No content = no or very little home 3D. Now, if suddenly every movie is made like Avatar, things might be different, but since only someone like Cameron wants to spend that kind of money, the "3D" movies made will continue to not be much of a value add for moviegoers.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> Just to be clear here, this has NOTHING to do with standards.


It has everything to do with standards.

Even the manufacturer reps at CES this year stated this. They indicated the 3D tech market was still quite new, and that "standards were being established over time, but not yet in place." That came from a senior Panasonic 3D guru there, and was confirmed in the Samsung booth as well.

Without tech standards, you get the same mess that is out there right now with HDMI changes....equipment mismatch problems.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

inkahauts said:


> I think the biggest problem here has nothing to do with hdcp or anything else, its more a lack of true conformity among all manufacturers, and the fact that this technology is by all real standards, new..


But the issue here isn't a problem of equipment not working. As has been proven by those who use an EDID spoofer to trick the receiver into thinking it's directly connected to something on their list, the equipment works fine. The problem is, DirecTV isn't even letting you tune to a channel unless they detect you have certain things connected a certain way. And that way they want it essentially means you can't have a high end surround setup involved.


netraa said:


> Why should Directv spend millions of dollars trying to make tens of thousands of one off setups work when the standards are going to be different in 6 months, and yet again in another 6 months.


What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content. It would be a lot less costly for them to not try and micromanage a list of setups they believe will work, as opposed to just letting us turn it on. Just like they do with 24p. They didn't try to make up a list of EDID numbers of equipment they know works with 24p, they just have a system that let's you enable it by simply confirming that you can see the image if that mode is turned on.
[/quote]As Directv has shown they are going to go with a white list method instead of a black list method.[/quote]
And a perfect example of a problem with a white list is the 2010 Mitsubishis. They require that those sets have to have the 3d adapter before they'll let you watch a 3d channel, but the 2010 models don't need the adapter. They have that functionality built in.


> For example the only official support of MRV being the Directv deca. will other methods work, yes, but if it breaks don't call us.


And if that was how it worked, I'd be perfectly happy. But they just flat won't let you tune to a 3d channel unless you have something on their list, connected the way they want it connected.



LarryFlowers said:


> Some facts:
> 1. You own a TV that does not support the 3D system DirecTV is using.
> 2. You have repeatedly made the point that you can't believe they did this, ignoring the fact that the existence of multiple competing 3D standards is not DirecTV's fault.
> 3. You have apparently found some adaptive technology that allows you to get around this problem and DirecTV is supposed to adjust their system to accomodate this type of "rig"?


1. I do. But they apparently don't want me to enjoy 3d with surround sound.
2. There aren't multiple competing 3d standards. The standards for both broadcast and blu-ray have been set. We just want them to allow our equipment that conforms to these standards to be used.
3. We just want them to get out of the business of second-guessing what will and won't work, and let watch 3d on equipment that DOES work.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> It has everything to do with standards.


*This particular problem has nothing to do with standards.* Stop trying to makek this into something it's not. We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards, and works with everything else that conforms to them.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> *This particular problem has nothing to do with standards.* Stop trying to make this into something it's not. *We have equipment that meets the 3d broadcast standards*, and works with everything else that conforms to them.


Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.

THEY indicate there are only a very few standards in 3D transmission and more important...image presentation at this time, and THEY are all working toward *establishing* standards.

In some cases....this will prompt display "retrofits" (adapters) to continue to function with updated 3D that meets the latest "standards". Today, the equipment may work....but there are few standards. The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.

Here are just a few pieces that discuss the lack of establishing standards in 3D technology:

http://all3dtv.com/2009/05/3d-television-standard-to-be-proposed/

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/453045-3DTV_2010_Standards_Education_Content_Critical_To_3D_Adoption.php

http://paytvblog.verimatrix.com/2010/01/3d-tv-standards-problem-and-other-musings-from-ces/

http://www.etcenter.org/files/publications/ETC_Exec_3D_primer.pdf



DarinC said:


> What makes you think the standards are changing? Who's asking them to spend millions of dollars? All we want is to allow those of us with working 3d setups to watch 3d content.


The technology is new, and will evolve/change. It's happened over and over with other "new" offerings.

Early adopters always run the risk of getting equipment that may not be "up to speed" with later standards...Component, DVI, HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.4a just to name a few examples of evolution. It happens. It also means myriads of equipment are sold without fulfilling the "latest and greatest.

In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.

Again....saw the prototype technology at CES...and its going to have a place in the market....after all....what's the #1 "issue" folks have about 3D adoption...the glasses. What happens when those are no longer needed? More changes.

Bottom line - 3D is in its infancy, and will "grow up". That will include changes.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> I voted "good" because I don't want D* sued by Hollywood studios.


The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/sp...px?t=e1bcfddf-de4b-4bcc-ba78-96f50c86f565&f=3

I think before you can ask if DirecTV should be using EDID, we need to answer these two questions first.


Should DirecTV be following the HDMI specifications, or should they just bypass them?

By the same token, should all manufacturers follow the same set of specs so incompatibilities like this don't occur?
I'm wondering why the other manufacturers of 3D hardware aren't following all the standards.

DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.

So whose problem is this really? Is it DirecTV's for following the spec or the manufacturer of the AVR for not doing so? This could be a pretty interesting discussion. :grin:

My 2¢ FWIW.

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> The use of EDID and VSI is in compliance with the HDMI 1.4a specification. Does Hollywood anything to do with this part of the spec. I don't think so. I believe it's part of making sure eveyone is on the same page and that it all works correctly.
> 
> http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/sp...px?t=e1bcfddf-de4b-4bcc-ba78-96f50c86f565&f=3
> 
> ...


All very good points Mike.

I think DirecTV is doing the best they can to help promote a "standard" that simply is not yet established in the industry as whole. The HDMI 1.4a requirement is just the latest of attempts to do just that.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

BTW, I voted No but what I really mean is...

_No, DirecTV is just following the current HDMI 1.4a standards for 3D Television as should everyone else_

:grin:

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

GregLee said:


> That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?


Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't in compliance with the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?

Or, am I not understanding you correctly? :scratchin

Mike


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

MicroBeta said:


> Are you really trying to say it's DirecTV's fault that you can't watch 3D TV because your AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards, or are you saying the standards shouldn't be used?


No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).


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## waltm (Jan 8, 2007)

Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

GregLee said:


> No, I didn't say anything remotely like that. I said I didn't care whose fault it was. I didn't say I can't watch 3D TV (I can). I didn't say my AVR isn't following the 3D HDMI standards (AFAIK it is).


I apologize for misunderstanding. :grin:

Mike


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

waltm said:


> Couldn't D* handle this like they did with unsupported MRV? We could enter a search code to enable output of the 3D channels and just not offer any tech support if things don't work out. Possibly on a different channel number such as 106-1 instead of 106 so tech support will know if you're trying to watch with the unsupported switch set to "on" if you happen to call in?


I don't know for sure but that seems like it would take a whole lotta code that would need to be added to the firmware in order to have two different implementations of 3D.

If that's the case I can't see it happening. :shrug:

Mike


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Really? Apparently you must know something more about 3D than the manufacturers who produce the hardware or content providers.


No, I'm quite certain they are just as aware of the 3d formats that are already defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec as I am. Could _new _formats come out? Of course they could. But the ones that DirecTV is transmitting, and the ones that our equipment can handle, are already defined.



> The technology in how 3D HDTV works in a number of Mitsubishi units is different than how it works in Panasonic displays....This is further evidenced by the changes/adapters required for some of the Mitz HDTV's to "work with" 3D receivers/DVRs.....whether you want to accept that or not is fine - but it comes from the industry itself.


Again, please try to stay on topic. This has nothing to do with 3d formats, nor the various methods different TVs use to create a 3d image. The fact that Mits DLP and Panny plasma TVs work differently is moot. They BOTH accept the same standard formats defined in the HDMI spec. The fact that _older _Mits TVs require an adapter for those formats is moot. The adapter accepts the same formats defined in the spec and used by DirecTV. The topic of this thread is about DirecTV's use of an EDID "white list". That is NOT part of the spec.



> http://all3dtv.com/2009/05/3d-television-standard-to-be-proposed/


That piece is over a year old. Since then, the 3d blu-ray standard has been adopted, and the HDMI 1.4a spec has been adopted. The latter being the only one we're concerned with here, because we're only talking about getting a signal from the DirecTV receiver to our equipment. Fail.



> http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/453045-3DTV_2010_Standards_Education_Content_Critical_To_3D_Adoption.php


Yes, there is a lack of standards in 3d glasses. But that has little to do with this topic. Fail.

http://paytvblog.verimatrix.com/2010/01/3d-tv-standards-problem-and-other-musings-from-ces/Another article that pre-dates the 1.4a spec. Fail.

http://www.etcenter.org/files/publications/ETC_Exec_3D_primer.pdfAn interesting article on 3d perception, but nothing to do with getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. Fail.



> In the case of 3D....what will happen when Texas Instruments or another manufacturer finally releases "glasses free" 3D? It's not a matter if IF, its a matter of WHEN.


I wouldn't expect that to make any difference. We're talking about getting the signal from the DVR to the TV. How it gets from the TV to our eyes is yet another unrelated topic.

There is 3d content available today, and hardware that can display it. DirecTV is carrying some of that content, but they aren't making it easy to watch it. THAT is the topic.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> The only real remedy in this situation is to use TOSLink for audio and run HR to HDMI to Converter to TV directly.


The only real remedy is for DirecTV to not be so limited and selective in what they choose to support and how, in regards to 3D. They really need to allow for capable equipment in these cases. There is no need for this EDID confusion.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> DirecTV uses EDID & VSI because that's what the spec calls for and not because the are imposing some restriction of their own.


I agree, and disagree. EDID is part of the 1.4 spec, but there's nothing in the spec about maintaining a separate manually updated white list.

VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.

This simply comes down to whether DirecTV chooses to be customer friendly, or not. Following the hard line of the spec in itself suggests that you have to replace all the components in the signal chain to 1.4. But the fact remains that those formats used in broadcast 3d will work with 1.3 components just fine, as long as the TV (or an adapter connected to the TV) can understand the signal. It seems that all the other hardware makes understand this, and give the consumer an option to output the 3d signal anyway. It appears that DirecTV isn't as interested in the customer's needs as others may be. I STILL fail to see the downside to allowing a 3d signal even if their hardware can't confirm if the end device is 3d capable or not. If DirecTV is so interested in "going by the book", why didn't they do that with 24p? EDID info also contains valid timings for the display. Why rely on the customer to say "yes I can / no I can't view that format"?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> No, I'm quite certain they are just as aware of the 3d formats that are already defined in the HDMI 1.4a spec as I am.


...and those in the know also realize that the HDMI 1.4a "standard" just came out recently, and hasn't been adopted in most equipment yet....its too new. Only very new hardware supports it. 


> Again, please try to stay on topic. This has nothing to do with 3d formats, nor the various methods different TVs use to create a 3d image.


Just because you don't understand it - that there are various methods 3D HDTV's used to support watching a 3D channel - doesn't make it "off topic". 


> The fact that Mits DLP and Panny plasma TVs work differently is moot.


Really? :lol: Tell that to the thousands of folks who bought them and can't get them to function without adapters, firmware updates, or other modifications. (I'm not one of them incidently).

First you insist on standards, then in that latest statement you don't care if they are applied. You continue to contradict yourself.



> They BOTH accept the same standard formats defined in the HDMI spec. The fact that _older _Mits TVs require an adapter for those formats is moot. The adapter accepts the same formats defined in the spec and used by DirecTV. The topic of this thread is about DirecTV's use of an EDID "white list". That is NOT part of the spec.


Apparently you just don't get it that the HDMI 1.4a spec is *just one part *of the capability to view 3D HD.

You also refuse to accept the fact that most hardware out there today doesn't support HDMI 1.4a. It's only out there since earlier in 2010. You must not also be aware that the DirecTV 3D HD channels function today without HDMI v1.4a....since all HR21 and newer HD DVRs can successfully be used for 3D HD viewing with DirecTV. Those feature ONLY earlier versions of HDMI connections, further demonstrating that HDMI 1.4a is NOT the Holy Grail "requirement" as you seem to insist.

It is clear you did not carefully read the 4 links provided on the topic, as those clearly demonstrate standards are *neither well established *nor *industry adopted *on any form of wide-spread basis.

Yet a number of folks already use DirecTV 3D HD (without HDMI 1.4a).

Therefore ON TOPIC and to the OP and POLL...relaxing the EDID restrictions is nothing more than a bandaid attempt to assist in adapting other inadaquate hardware - caused mostly by the slow rollout for and basic lack of 3D HD standards as a whole.

It's all new technology....and until *true* "standards are defined, accepted, and deployed in all equipment....the early adopter issues some have reported will continue.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

DarinC said:


> I agree, and disagree. EDID is part of the 1.4 spec, but there's nothing in the spec about maintaining a separate manually updated white list.
> 
> VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.
> 
> This simply comes down to whether DirecTV chooses to be customer friendly, or not. Following the hard line of the spec in itself suggests that you have to replace all the components in the signal chain to 1.4. But the fact remains that those formats used in broadcast 3d will work with 1.3 components just fine, as long as the TV (or an adapter connected to the TV) can understand the signal. It seems that all the other hardware makes understand this, and give the consumer an option to output the 3d signal anyway. It appears that DirecTV isn't as interested in the customer's needs as others may be. I STILL fail to see the downside to allowing a 3d signal even if their hardware can't confirm if the end device is 3d capable or not. If DirecTV is so interested in "going by the book", why didn't they do that with 24p? EDID info also contains valid timings for the display. Why rely on the customer to say "yes I can / no I can't view that format"?


Ding, ding, ding! There we have it. The issue is DirecTV restrictions rather than component limitations. DirecTV should allow for more leeway in such a diverse and new technology. Your DirecTV receiver doesn't believe that you have fully capable 3D ready display? That's fine, but the customer should have the option of acknowledging that suggestion and attempting to display it anyway. If it works, great! If it doesn't...no harm done.

The Samsung 3D DLP's are just as capable as the Mitsubishi 3D DLP's. DirecTV could easily make this experience more customer friendly and I hope that they will at some point.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

True HDMI 1.4 is not required for 3D. See the Sony PS3 as an example. Those most necessary and currently needed features of 1.4 are available via 1.3.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> BTW, I voted No but what I really mean is...
> 
> _No, DirecTV is just following the current HDMI 1.4a standards for 3D Television as should everyone else_
> 
> ...


Yet they use receivers with HDMI 1.3...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DarinC said:


> VSI is a valid point. For those of us where the issue is due to including HDMI 1.3 components in the signal chain (an existing HDMI 1.3 receiver), VSI will cause a problem, because it can't reply that it's 3d capable (because technically, it's not. So I do understand your point about DirecTV just following the spec.


I'm pretty sure that this is the root of all of the problems and that it has little if anything to do with EDID.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> Yet they use receivers with HDMI 1.3...


Yup....supporting wider adoption and more "customer friendly" by eliminating a complete equipment refresh.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

Needless to say, the adoption and push for 3D has not been handled in as organized or smooth a manner as possible. That goes for just about every company involved. One and only one standard and delivery method should have been adopted before equipment was being marketed and sold. Support should have been built in for new equipment, equipment in the near future, and legacy support for perfectly capable Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP from the last couple of years. Countless companies (including Mitsubishi and Samsung) ran with and/or dropped their own ball. It will take a long time to sort out and if 3D fails entirely, that may be one of the reasons why. 

I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> Needless to say, the adoption and push for 3D has not been handled in as organized or smooth a manner as possible. That goes for just about every company involved. One and only one standard and delivery method should have been adopted before equipment was being marketed and sold. Support should have been built in for new equipment, equipment in the near future, and legacy support for perfectly capable Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP from the last couple of years. Countless companies (including Mitsubishi and Samsung) ran with and/or dropped their own ball. It will take a long time to sort out and if 3D fails entirely, that may be one of the reasons why.
> 
> I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.


I'd say I'd have to agree with ALL your points....that last one was likely an issue of timing and having to make a go/no go choice at the time the settled on their launch plans.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

In a perfect world, there should be one standard, yes. However, getting all of the Industry big-wigs together to come up with a standard clearly wasn't a priority. Everyone wanted to be first so that their "standard" would win. These sorts of fights have been happening forever. I wonder how many early adopters were angered over VHS beating Beta, Blu-Ray beating HD-DVD. This is nothing new, just a fight to get your product out first and then a realization that interoperability is important to the consumer.

It's early still and unfortunately early adopter headaches enter the picture. I'm probably 4-5 years out from getting my first 3DTV and today's glitches will be long gone at that point with all sorts of new glitches being introduced into the system.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Just because you don't understand it - that there are various methods 3D HDTV's used to support watching a 3D channel - doesn't make it "off topic".


I apparently at least understand it better than you. If you care to discuss it in a separate thread about the topic, perhaps I can enlighten you. Again, HOW a TV creates a 3d image is COMPLETELY off topic to _this _thread. A DLP and an LCD create images in very different ways. But if they can both accept a 1080p/24 signal, how it gets from the DVR to the TV is exactly the same.



> Really? :lol: Tell that to the thousands of folks who bought them and can't get them to function without adapters, firmware updates, or other modifications. (I'm not one of them incidently).


Again, completely off-topic. I've created a separate thread in an appropriate forum if you'd like to continue this.


> Apparently you just don't get it that the HDMI 1.4a spec is *just one part *of the capability to view 3D HD.


And the ONLY part that is relevant to getting the signal from the DVR to the display.



> You also refuse to accept the fact that most hardware out there today doesn't support HDMI 1.4a. It's only out there since earlier in 2010.


Apparently you haven't read all my posts.


> You must not also be aware that the DirecTV 3D HD channels function today without HDMI v1.4a....since all HR21 and newer HD DVRs can successfully be used for 3D HD viewing with DirecTV.


Yet they are using the 1.4 spec to define how 3d signals are communicated over HDMI.


> Those feature ONLY earlier versions of HDMI connections, further demonstrating that HDMI 1.4a is NOT the Holy Grail "requirement" as you seem to insist.


Again, you aren't reading my posts. I am ALL FOR allowing the signal to transmit over a 1.3 connection. But Doug's post suggested that it's the requirement of VSI that is the reason they aren't allowing 3d over 1.3 devices. VSI is part of 1.4a.



> Therefore ON TOPIC and to the OP and POLL...relaxing the EDID restrictions is nothing more than a bandaid attempt to assist in adapting other inadaquate hardware


Just to be clear, the EDID restrictions are a DirecTV thing, not something others are doing. It would be more correct to call the EDID white list a bandaid, rather than removing it being a bandaid. I fail to see how you can consider hardware "inadequate" when we are talking about allowing legit 3d capable displays to receive the 3d signal.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yup....supporting wider adoption and more "customer friendly" by eliminating a complete equipment refresh.


So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Hoosier205 said:


> I simply wish that DirecTV would have taken the same approach as Panasonic did with their 3D BD players...allow for both side by side and checkerboard formats.


Honestly, I can understand them not supporting checkerboard. Checkerboard has not won adoption. Besides, I doubt the hardware is powerful enough to convert from one to another, and if they have to choose a format to encode in, it makes sense to use the formats that are already being adopted by the industry.

But again, regardless of what format they choose, it's moot if they won't even allow the output to be enabled.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

EDID & VSI are apparently an issue for equipment that hasn’t implemented all of the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a standards.

What’s the harm in giving the user the option of allowing the 3D signal to pass or eliminating EDID & VSI?

IIUC, this would require a rewrite of the current firmware to allow the user more options...which probably requires rewriting of a substantial portion of the modules that handle 3D.

What about other parts of the 3D portion of the HDMI 1.4a standards that could affect our ability to view 3D content? Who is going to scrub the current standards and the coming updates to make sure they don’t implement anything that affects our 3D watching?

It doesn’t really seem that easy to do. How does anyone decide which parts of the standards to implement, which to ignore, and which to give the viewer the option to ignore?

I think the harm lies in all the new coding of the 3D modules in the firmware that would be required to accomplish any of this.

I don’t think DirecTV has imposed anything on us. Further, I don’t think DirecTV should lessen the requirements just because other manufactures are not implementing the same standards.

Not to mention that these standards are in their infancy. IMHO, if DirecTV follows the standards as they’re currently written, then they’ll have a leg up when those standards become more cohesive.

Not to mention, again, that Hitachi, Panasonic, Philips, Silicon Image, Sony, Technicolor, and Toshiba are all onboard with this implementation (see the cover page & credits for the link in my previous post) as laid out in the HDMI 1.4a specification. 

All of this to say that I believe that EDID & VSI shouldn’t be removed/ignored until the standards becomes more solidified. IMO, until then they should stick to the specs as they’re laid out.

My 2¢ FWIW. :grin:

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal.


Other than you in that post, nobody said that. 

Yes....they chose to promote and delivery 3D HD based on their existing equipment (which by the way in NOT HDM1.3 either). That required the least change to the end user period.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DarinC said:


> So in other words, they don't want to have to upgrade THEIR hardware when they know perfectly well that for the types of signals they are dealing with, 1.3 is perfectly capable. But when it comes to OUR hardware, we need to be fully 1.4 compliant throughout the chain, or they won't turn on the signal.


IIRC, 1.4 lays out the specs for 3D over HDMI. Further, 1.4 has the same bandwidth requirements as 1.3 and there are no addition hardware requirements.

The bandwidth/capability requirements are nearly identical. 1.3 devices should be able to handle full 1080p 3D as laid out in the 1.4 spec. Therefore, if you're 1.3 compliant then you're 1.4 compliant...I think. :grin:

Mike


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

MicroBeta said:


> IIRC, 1.4 lays out the specs for 3D over HDMI. Further, 1.4 has the same bandwidth requirements as 1.3 and there are no addition hardware requirements.
> 
> The bandwidth/capability requirements are nearly identical. 1.3 devices should be able to handle full 1080p 3D as laid out in the 1.4 spec. Therefore, if you're 1.3 compliant then you're 1.4 compliant...I think. :grin:
> 
> Mike


That is basically my understanding as well. The additional features of 1.4 over 1.3 deal more with future tech than current tech and don't impact current 3D capabilities.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

OK .. I just found the HDMI 3D documentation for 1.4a. I think I see where the problem is and why both the AVR and DIRECTV are saying that they are correct.

You can find the spec here (need to give name/email if you want to download):
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/specification.aspx

This has to be due to the VSI. Namely, the transmission of the VSI is optional UNLESS the source device outputs a signal defined in section 8.2.3.

The AVR MFG is likely not passing this frame through to the TV at all. So there becomes a disconnect on determining support. So as MicroBeta suggests .. is DIRECTV forcing the standard wrong or is the AVR NOT enforcing the standard wrong.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Hoosier205 said:


> That is basically my understanding as well. The additional features of 1.4 over 1.4 deal more with future tech than current tech and don't impact current 3D capabilities.


It seems to me that the "3D" portion of the 1.4a spec have everything to do with the way 3D is packaged and delivered.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> The AVR MFG is likely not passing this frame through to the TV at all. So there becomes a disconnect on determining support. So as MicroBeta suggests .. is DIRECTV forcing the standard wrong or is the AVR NOT enforcing the standard wrong.


Well, I think the answer is: neither. :grin: There are two separate cases: 1.3 AVRs and 1.4 AVRs. VSI is not part of 1.3. So it's not that 1.3 AVRs are handling it _wrong_. It's just not part of their spec. As I said before, 1.3 AVRs will cause a problem, because they can't reply that they are 3d capable. That's why I said it's an issue of how customer friendly they want to be. Virtually every other manufacturer with a 3d source allows a workaround, so that people with 1.3 devices aren't left out in the cold.

The case with 1.4 receivers is completely different. I have seen posts going both ways on 1.4 receivers: some work, and some don't. Just like some 1.3 AVRs work, and some don't. In the case of 1.3 AVRs, that's simple to explain: some AVRs are mere switches. They don't process the signal. In that case, the DVR will essentially just see whatever is behind the AVR. But higher end models provide scaling and other functions that require the AVR to process the signal. Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.

But either way, it is not accommodating to customers.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

...and what happens when previous HD DVRs have an HDMI version prior to v1.3.....???


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> What's the harm in giving the user the option of allowing the 3D signal to pass or eliminating EDID & VSI?
> 
> IIUC, this would require a rewrite of the current firmware to allow the user more options...which probably requires rewriting of a substantial portion of the modules that handle 3D.


Is this based on any specific knowledge of their firmware structure? If so, I'd be interested in learning more. Obviously, they had to re-write it just to put 3d in there to start with. 3d is new. VSI is new. It apparently wasn't a difficult thing to do for other manufacturers.



> I don't think DirecTV has imposed anything on us. Further, I don't think DirecTV should lessen the requirements just because other manufactures are not implementing the same standards.


Well, no, they should do it because they are interested in providing a solution that has their customer's best interests in mind. The other manufacturers are only relevant as proof that it can be accomplished, apparently easy enough that virtually all of them are able to work something out.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

I wonder how many who voted actually have or are watching 3D, whether on DirecTV or other sources such as Bluray?

It is a common frustration among 3D owners that DirecTV unnecessarily *blocks* it's 3D signals on many setups when they do 3D just fine.

I almost bought a 3D projector until I learned DirecTV would block the 3D even though the PJ uses the same 3D format, except it is not on the "list".

Let the 3D channels through, If my setup cannot view them properly, I can call the TV manufacture.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

DarinC said:


> Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.


Wait, my apologies, I knew the answer to this going in to this thread, but got sidetracked and forgot. DirecTV _has _to be doing an EDID white list. Here's one example of someone using an HDMI Detective to "spoof" the DVR into thinking it's connected to a TV on "their list". The HDMI Detective is a 1.3 device, and I'm not aware of any updates to it to make it handle VSI info. The TV he has can actually handle the formats that DirecTV outputs, but DirecTV seems to think it needs the 3d adapter like the older models do. So he had to go off and buy a $100 device to "trick" the DVR into thinking his TV could do something it already could do.

So this doesn't _appear _to have anything to do with VSI, or DirecTV following spec. They simply came up with this goofball idea to enable 3d based on their list of what they _think _can handle a 3d signal.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DarinC said:


> Well, I think the answer is: neither. :grin: There are two separate cases: 1.3 AVRs and 1.4 AVRs. VSI is not part of 1.3. So it's not that 1.3 AVRs are handling it _wrong_. It's just not part of their spec. As I said before, 1.3 AVRs will cause a problem, because they can't reply that they are 3d capable. That's why I said it's an issue of how customer friendly they want to be. Virtually every other manufacturer with a 3d source allows a workaround, so that people with 1.3 devices aren't left out in the cold.
> 
> The case with 1.4 receivers is completely different. I have seen posts going both ways on 1.4 receivers: some work, and some don't. Just like some 1.3 AVRs work, and some don't. In the case of 1.3 AVRs, that's simple to explain: some AVRs are mere switches. They don't process the signal. In that case, the DVR will essentially just see whatever is behind the AVR. But higher end models provide scaling and other functions that require the AVR to process the signal. Now, if the situation with DirecTV receivers on 1.4 AVRs is the same, then that would suggest that DirecTV is indeed doing an EDIE white list rather than depending on using VSI.
> 
> But either way, it is not accommodating to customers.


Except for MicroHDMI I don't think there is any differences in hardware between 1.3 and 1.4. So, and IIUC, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is just as good as 1.4. Of course I've been wrong before. :grin:



DarinC said:


> Is this based on any specific knowledge of their firmware structure? If so, I'd be interested in learning more. Obviously, they had to re-write it just to put 3d in there to start with. 3d is new. VSI is new. It apparently wasn't a difficult thing to do for other manufacturers.
> 
> Well, no, they should do it because they are interested in providing a solution that has their customer's best interests in mind. The other manufacturers are only relevant as proof that it can be accomplished, apparently easy enough that virtually all of them are able to work something out.


If I understand correctly, meaning based on my own experience programming. Beyond that I have no specific knowledge about how DirecTV's receivers are programmed. However, there are different versions for each receiver, as well as different manufacturers so it's isn't a matter of changing one firmware version but rather...what, half a dozen or more? :shrug:

I know that I've never found it an easy thing to restructure how a program flows and how it interacts with the user. In my experience it always involves much more then you think it might....like I said, I've been wrong before. 

Mike


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> Except for MicroHDMI I don't think there is any differences in hardware between 1.3 and 1.4. So, and IIUC, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is just as good as 1.4. Of course I've been wrong before. :grin:


I'm pretty sure some of the added functionality of 1.4 requires new hardware, such as ethernet over HDMI. But I agree, for the most part, 3d works over 1.3, as evidenced by people using 3d sources (other than DirecTV of course) with 1.3 gear. The exception may be 3d Blu-ray... as opposed to the formats being used in broadcast, the frame-packed 3d 1080p format does appear a little different compared to a standard 1080p signal, as at least some AVRs seem to have difficulty extracting HD audio out of it. But side by side and top/bottom look just like a standard 2d signal (plus some extra header info), and seem to pass through 1.3 gear just fine.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

DarinC said:


> They simply came up with this goofball idea to enable 3d based on their list of what they _think _can handle a 3d signal.


If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

*From About.com:Home Theater:*



> *HDMI 1.3a *- In addition to the above audio improvements, HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a increase the amount of video bandwidth that can be transferred from a source to a display. This means, that in addition to the standard 24-bit color depth we are used to, HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a have the ability to transfer color depths up to 48-bits, and can accommodate resolutions much higher than the 1080p resolution standard that is in use today.
> 
> *HDMI 1.4* - HDMI version 1.4 adds practical enhancements for HDMI connectivity. If home theater components, such as HDTVs, Blu-ray Disc players, and Home Theater Receivers, are HDMI 1.4 enabled, one or more of the following features can be implemented:
> 
> ...


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"GregLee" said:


> If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.


I wouldn't call it a "mistake" rather the way it should be


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

GregLee said:


> If you mean a list of specific models, then no, I don't think that is what is being done. My previous TV was a 2009 Samsung model which could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d, but my HR24 (connected through my AVR) decided it was 3d capable, and sent it video, which I could view as two side by side frames. To make a mistake like that, it seems the HR24 must be looking at capabilities, not specific models.


Seems to me your experience would suggest the opposite. If your TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d, then that sounds like it's not the the capabilities that determined what was sent, but a mistake in their list. Just like Primetime19's 73838 model TV... that one IS capable of handling a SBS signal, but if you look at DirecTV's list, they say that it requires the adapter to view 3d. That is not the case... all the models that end in 8 are 2010 models, and those can handle SBS & T/B without the adapter. DirecTV was mistaken when they put that list together, and it just so happens that their DVRs are making the same mistake.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

DarinC said:


> I'm pretty sure some of the added functionality of 1.4 requires new hardware, such as ethernet over HDMI. But I agree, for the most part, 3d works over 1.3, as evidenced by people using 3d sources (other than DirecTV of course) with 1.3 gear. The exception may be 3d Blu-ray... as opposed to the formats being used in broadcast, the frame-packed 3d 1080p format does appear a little different compared to a standard 1080p signal, as at least some AVRs seem to have difficulty extracting HD audio out of it. But side by side and top/bottom look just like a standard 2d signal (plus some extra header info), and seem to pass through 1.3 gear just fine.


As I said before, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is as good as 1.4. 

You only need 1.4 specific hardware for things like Ethernet over HDMI, HDMI Micro connector, or 4k formats.

3D need only be firmware not hardware. IMHO, and more to the topic, that means implementing the standards inlcuding EDID and VSI...I'm just sayin' :grin:

Mike


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

MicroBeta said:


> 3D need only be firmware not hardware. IMHO, and more to the topic, that means implementing the standards inlcuding EDID and VSI...I'm just sayin' :grin:


Ah, almost forgot .. I did hear that Mitsubishi will have a firmware update for their TV sets sometime in the next few months. This should help these sets out to some degree. I wonder if the AVR manufactures will have similar updates.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Ah, almost forgot .. I did hear that Mitsubishi will have a firmware update for their TV sets sometime in the next few months. This should help these sets out to some degree. I wonder if the AVR manufactures will have similar updates.


Very interesting. 

Mike


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

MicroBeta said:


> As I said before, for the purposes of 3D TV, 1.3 is as good as 1.4.
> 
> You only need 1.4 specific hardware for things like Ethernet over HDMI, HDMI Micro connector, or 4k formats.
> 
> ...


That makes plenty of sense.

Since we have been told the HR20's are *not* 3D compatible with DirecTV, and HDMI 1.3 came out about the same time (so too late to add it into those models), then all other HD DVRs starting with the HR21 featuring v1.3 or 1.3a could be used - and in fact have firmware updated to support 3D HD.

That takes HDMI v1.4a out of play as a "standard requirement"...since it just came earlier this year. As Doug indicated, it would seem VSI Alliance requirements are more in play than anything else, in terms of how DirecTV's 3D HD works at this time.

It's also good news for those folks with Mitz units to hear that their 3D HD displays might become more compatible with firmware updates.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That makes plenty of sense.
> 
> Since we have been told the HR20's are *not* 3D compatible with DirecTV, and HDMI 1.3 came out about the same time (so too late to add it into those models), then all other HD DVRs starting with the HR21 featuring v1.3 or 1.3a could be used - and in fact have firmware updated to support 3D HD.
> 
> ...


That's a really good point.

I meant to include the HR2x hardware timeline but forgot. It really shows that 1.3 is 3D. You don't need anything to 1.4 to be able to do 3D. 

Mike


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

Doug Brott said:


> Ah, almost forgot .. I did hear that Mitsubishi will have a firmware update for their TV sets sometime in the next few months. This should help these sets out to some degree. I wonder if the AVR manufactures will have similar updates.


Maybe for some of the really high end units, but receivers under say, $800-$1000 never get new firmware from what I've seen. Most of them don;t even seem to have a port to load new FW on them.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

The 2010 Mitsubishis are supposed to get a firmware update to enable packed frame decoding (3d blu-ray). They can already do sbs and t/b, but DirecTV doesn't recognize that capability. The older models will still need the adapter. Regardless, that won't help the fact that DirecTV won't let the signal go through HDMI 1.3 processing AVRs, despite the fact that 1.3 is sufficient for 3d.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

How about a search term such as Enable3D that is hidden in the DirecTv software code. You do a search for the term and this term disables the EDID restrictions which allows that DirecTv customer to watch 3D on his equipment without the EDID restrictions. The customer by enabling this secret search term realizes that DirecTv is not supporting this feature and agrees to not call customer service if they have issues.

I am willing to be part of the beta test group for this program as I bet other DBS.talk members are as well. Any opinion regarding this?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Honestly, I don't care what form the workaround is, as long as they provide some option for customers with legacy equipment.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"geaux tigers" said:


> How about a search term such as Enable3D that is hidden in the DirecTv software code. You do a search for the term and this term disables the EDID restrictions which allows that DirecTv customer to watch 3D on his equipment without the EDID restrictions. The customer by enabling this secret search term realizes that DirecTv is not supporting this feature and agrees to not call customer service if they have issues.
> 
> I am willing to be part of the beta test group for this program as I bet other DBS.talk members are as well. Any opinion regarding this?


If this is the compromise I must make then fine with me, though I don't think it should be a beta program, rather a final deliverable version, with the understanding that incompatibility will have to be addressed by the TV/equipment manufactures.


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

GregLee said:


> That's a little vague, but maybe that's right, and DirecTV is following specs, so when you can't get your AVR to work with DirecTV 3d channels, it's the AVR's fault. But why should I care whose fault it is? Am I an HDMI enforcement officer? I just want my equipment to work to do what I want, and DirecTV is blocking a TV signal in some cases, when there is no apparent point to it. It is just very irritating. Even supposing DirecTV is within its rights to frustrate some of its customers this way, does that mean they should do it?


I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here. Their configuration says that if you do a direct connection with a compatible 3dtv then it will work fine and so far that has been proven to be true. Unfortunately all the people it works fine for aren't the ones *****ing here about a problem that is probably caused by their incompatible equipment connected between the Directv receiver and the 3D TV.

Another good example is Directv's Dolby Digital 5.1 output. If you go from a Directv receiver directly to the AV receiver DD5.1 works flawlessly. Like most other Directv customers I discovered most tv manufacturers cripple the optical/coaxial digital outputs on the tv so only OTA HD outputs to AV receivers properly and audio passed-thru doesn't. Is that Directv's fault? No. It is a nuisance? Yes. But it's still not Directv's fault. If I want proper DD5.1 audio I connect the satellite dish receiver, blu-ray player, whatever, directly to the AV receiver. If I want crippled DD audio I pass-thru the tv.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Seems the argument is "My Blu-Ray player does it .. Why can't DIRECTV" ...

The Blu-Ray player either chose to disregard the spec or ignored it completely and then works. DIRECTV has chosen to follow the spec and folks here are asking that DIRECTV NOT follow the spec. So what's right? Right is probably to follow the spec, but understandably it feels wrong.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

DarinC said:


> Seems to me your experience would suggest the opposite. If your TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d, then that sounds like it's not the the capabilities that determined what was sent, but a mistake in their list.


I don't understand your reasoning. Why would DirecTV include a 2009 model in their list, when we all know that hdmi 1.4a was not adopted until 2010 and no preceding year's models support it? Is that a possible mistake?

Besides, I didn't say my "TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d". What I said was subtly different -- that it "could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d". That model, pn42b450, according to its manual, can display in 3d a SBS 728x1024 signal. So it is "capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d." (Of course, the DirecTV boxes don't supply signals at that resolution.)


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here. Their configuration says that if you do a direct connection with a compatible 3dtv then it will work fine and so far that has been proven to be true. Unfortunately all the people it works fine for aren't the ones *****ing here about a problem that is probably caused by their incompatible equipment connected between the Directv receiver and the 3D TV.
> 
> Another good example is Directv's Dolby Digital 5.1 output. If you go from a Directv receiver directly to the AV receiver DD5.1 works flawlessly. Like most other Directv customers I discovered most tv manufacturers cripple the optical/coaxial digital outputs on the tv so only OTA HD outputs to AV receivers properly and audio passed-thru doesn't. Is that Directv's fault? No. It is a nuisance? Yes. But it's still not Directv's fault. If I want proper DD5.1 audio I connect the satellite dish receiver, blu-ray player, whatever, directly to the AV receiver. If I want crippled DD audio I pass-thru the tv.


I for one do not care who's fault it is as long as someone comes up with a solution. I offered one idea concerning a hidden search term that would I believe offer a fair and practical solution. DirecTv is a good company but like any company their is always room for improvement and I believe that 3D is an area where there is room for improvement. If people did not complaint then how would anyone know their is a problem.

Additionally, what may impact one person may not impact another. I realize that you can't make everyone happy. DirecTv can not turn a non 3D capable HDTV into a 3D capable HDTV. However, I believe that DirecTv can allow 3D capable equipment including legacy 1.3 equipment to watch its 3D broadcasts by either improving its software or giving more control to the user.

Furthermore, I am not asking for DirecTv to support something that is not on their official list. I use wired cat-5e for MRV rather than DECA. I understand that DirecTv does not officially support non DECA connections and I am fine with that. I also understand that the DirecTv receivers are not capable of producing a 3D Checkerboard signal and I am fine with that as 3D Checkerboard is not one of the officially approved 3D formats. What I am not good with is an EDID / VSI scheme that prevents perfectly capable 3D equipment from working with DirecTv's equipment.


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## High def mon (Aug 7, 2004)

I sure hope someone from Dish picks up on this thread!!!


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> I don't agree with the other posters that Directv is at fault here.


I think it's remarkable that the blame game here is so popular, even when I've explicitly said otherwise, it's still assumed that I must be playing it.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"High def mon" said:


> I sure hope someone from Dish picks up on this thread!!!


If by that you mean once DISH starts doing 3D they may do it differently, therefore DirecTV may change too, I agree. Competition can change things generally for the benefit of the consumers.


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## ffemtreed (Jan 30, 2008)

These issues are exactly why I refuse to purchase any type of 3D TV. 

If I can't have my AV receiver between my TV and Source there is a problem that the industry needs to fix. I am not interested in running additional cables as half ass workarounds because DTV can't be compliant with the rest of the world.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Hey Darin, how've you been?


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

spartanstew said:


> Hey Darin, how've you been?


You're messed up and shoot it into public instead of PM to him.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Not sure what you're trying to say (or if it's English), but...

Lighten up, Francis.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

P Smith said:


> You're messed up and shoot it into public instead of PM to him.


...what?


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> How about a search term such as Enable3D that is hidden in the DirecTv software code. You do a search for the term and this term disables the EDID restrictions which allows that DirecTv customer to watch 3D on his equipment without the EDID restrictions. The customer by enabling this secret search term realizes that DirecTv is not supporting this feature and agrees to not call customer service if they have issues.
> 
> I am willing to be part of the beta test group for this program as I bet other DBS.talk members are as well. Any opinion regarding this?


Doug or others with pull,

Would DirecTv be receptive to something like this?


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

As you can see from the number of posts I am new to this forum..but have been a DirectTv customer for over 14 years. This particular thread has been very informative and a bit confusing. So let me know if I understand correctly…
1.	DirectTV being the leader that they are has partnered with Panasonic to be the first to provide 3D content to its customers. Panasonics interest is that they are now producing 3D Blu-ray players and have released their first 3D capable HDTVs and realize that they can sell more of them if some 3D content was actually available. As part of this partnership Panasonic is providing the content for the n3D ch 103. 

2.	I assume that Panasonic also provided the expertise for the 3D firmware updates to DirectTVs DVRs so that they will work seamlessly with the new Panasonic TVs. This firmware includes the ability to do a handshake with the TVs to identify if a TV is 3D capable using the model number or other identifier (EDID). This handshake also enables the TV to automatically switch to 3D mode (at least for the Panasonic TVs) which makes everything work seamlessly for Panasonic customers who don’t use an AVR , bypass the AVR or who recently upgraded to an HDMI 1.4 compliant AVR. If the DVR does not receive this EDID then it disables the 3D channels (they go gray with a message about compatibility)


3. This handshake can only be accomplished if the DVR is connected directly to the qualified TV or if through an AVR it must be HDMI 1.4 capable. The only legacy 3D ready TVs are select Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP models dating back as far as 2007. These legacy TVs require an adaptor to convert the newly established 3D signal types to a checkerboard format which is required by DLP TVs. The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format. (They will require a firmware update to be able to decode the 3D Blu-ray format.)

4.	Now the problem is that for those customers who use AVRs in their systems a vast majority of them are the legacy HDMI 1.3 models (edit) which supply their own EDID to the DVR which indicates that the AVR is not 3D capable (edit) which requires these customers to bypass their AVRs for the DTV DRV signal or to do some other workaround even though their HDMI 1.3 AVRs are fully capable of passing the 3D signal to the TV..They just don't send an EDID indicating 3D functionality to the DVR.

5.	If DTV eliminates the EDID check and the handshake the 3D signal could be sent through the legacy AVRs to any TV. The problem with this is that the Panasonic customers would have to manually switch their TVs to 3D mode so the seamless operation is lost. 

6.	So what we are asking is that DTV provide some sort of toggle so the EDID 3D functionality check can be turned off for those of us with who wish to continue to use our HDMI 1.3 AVRs or who have legacy 3D ready TVs. Or perhaps even better they could do the programming to do the handshake if a proper EDID is sent or skip the handshake if a non 3D function EDID is detected?

If my understanding of all this is correct , this fix doesn’t seem all the difficult to implement..


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

raclevel said:


> If my understanding of all this is correct , this fix doesn't seem all the difficult to implement..


I could see where you might get some of these impressions...

There exists a group of people who invested in 3D televisions that are older and do not use the format that DirecTV has decided to pursue. Understandable these people are not happy with this.

Some of the individuals have found various ways to deal with the problem with some success.

Adding other equipment to the process, such as AVR's appears to interfere with the solution they have found.

What seems to be escaping everyone is the fact that a) DirecTV picked a format to support b) only a very small group of people are affected by the problem because c) hardly anyone is watching 3D at all in the first place.

Should 3D actually become a major selling item in the future, DirecTV has already positioned itself to supply programming in the format that seems to be the dominant format.. at least all the manufacturers seem to building equipment to support it... and since so few people invested in 3D in the unsupported format, I would consider it unlikely that DirecTV is going to make a changes from its current approach notwithstanding the desires of the people who would like to see it so.

Based just on the poll for this thread we are talking about a group of people that is statistically small.

People are just starting to buy 3D capable hardware (that is compliant) and it is being sold at premium prices in economic times that positively suck. It is still a risky purchase.

Even among manufacturers that are using the same 3D format, the glasses aren't necessarily interchangeable. Panasonic glasses are working on Samsung but the reverse is not true.

2 standards have been set.. Blu-Ray 3D specifications are complete. HDMI specifications are complete. TV specs are NOT, at least 2 manufacturers, Toshiba & Hitachi are working on a completely different 3D format.

If someone buys a 3D Blu-Ray player 3D TV today, these will work together and DirecTV's implementation of 3D will work as well, so as 3D sales come into some semblence of the mainstream DirecTV is well positioned.

Keep in mind, the entire universe of 3D TV owners who are also DirecTV subscribers is a statistically insignificant universe. There are enormous hurdles ahead for any large adoption of 3D. I do not see DirecTV expending an enormous effort into deviating from the current specifications.

It would be much easier for the small group of people to connect in such a way as to eliminate the AVR problem and deliver audio from the TV to the AVR instead of from the HD DVR to the AVR. It wouldn't be the best implementation but it would work and considering their tv's weren't supported in the first place a reasonable solution.

If I were DirecTV I would be leary of deviating from my planned course, particularly when there is no way of knowing what other methods may come along to bring these older TV's into compliance with the current standards.


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## HerntDawg (Oct 6, 2008)

3D what?


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

HerntDawg said:


> 3D what?


Much like HDTV, you can now get 3DTV that can also do HDTV. :lol: It's newfangled stuff.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

raclevel said:


> As you can see from the number of posts I am new to this forum..but have been a DirectTv customer for over 14 years. This particular thread has been very informative and a bit confusing. So let me know if I understand correctly&#8230;
> 1.	DirectTV being the leader that they are has partnered with Panasonic to be the first to provide 3D content to its customers. Panasonics interest is that they are now producing 3D Blu-ray players and have released their first 3D capable HDTVs and realize that they can sell more of them if some 3D content was actually available. As part of this partnership Panasonic is providing the content for the n3D ch 103.
> 2.	I assume that Panasonic also provided the expertise for the 3D firmware updates to DirectTVs DVRs so that they will work seamlessly with the new Panasonic TVs. This firmware includes the ability to do a handshake with the TVs to identify if a TV is 3D capable using the model number or other identifier (EDID). This handshake also enables the TV to automatically switch to 3D mode (at least for the Panasonic TVs) which makes everything work seamlessly for Panasonic customers who don't use an AVR , bypass the AVR or who recently upgraded to an HDMI 1.4 compliant AVR. If the DVR does not receive this EDID then it disables the 3D channels (they go gray with a message about compatibility)
> 3. This handshake can only be accomplished if the DVR is connected directly to the qualified TV or if through an AVR it must be HDMI 1.4 capable. The only legacy 3D ready TVs are select Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP models dating back as far as 2007. These legacy TVs require an adaptor to convert the newly established 3D signal types to a checkerboard format which is required by DLP TVs. The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format. (They will require a firmware update to be able to decode the 3D Blu-ray format.)
> ...


Good morning raclevel, and welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s

Although you say you are a bit confused, I think you have the discussion well in hand. 

However, Doug Brott suspects the problem is with VSI and EDID. He explains in this post...

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2549385#post2549385

I'm not sure anyone of us knows for sure what the issue is but it is an interesting discussion. 

Mike


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## nc88keyz (Aug 12, 2007)

this thread is making my head hurt, but i agree with searching for "enable 3d" or "uneidecheck". We've used this work around before and avoid support. At least let us test it out for a while before introducing it mainstream firmware. 

However with that said, I would like to see "enable3d" code more because in a dreamworld that would mean that my HR20s would deliver 3d Magically!!!!

j/k


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

LarryFlowers said:


> ...If I were DirecTV I would be leary of deviating from my planned course, particularly when there is no way of knowing what other methods may come along to bring these older TV's into compliance with the current standards.


In a nutshell, since the 3D market is so small, DirecTV, a pioneer in providing 3D content, should further limit the 3D base in the hope that it will have a better chance for success


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Hoosier205 said:


> There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.


As is done when you want to record a 3d program but have no 3d TV connected. You're warned that it may not be possible to watch it on your TV, then asked if you want to record it anyway. Before I got my 3d TV, I recorded several programs that way.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

LarryFlowers said:


> There exists a group of people who invested in 3D televisions that are older and do not use the format that DirecTV has decided to pursue. Understandable these people are not happy with this.


Some brand new Mitsubishi DLPs are also problematic, including some models on DirecTV's supported list.


> Adding other equipment to the process, such as AVR's appears to interfere with the solution they have found.


Adding an AVR, even in some cases a 2010 model AVR, can prevent watching DirecTV 3D on any 3D TV, not just certain older models, due to DirecTV blocking the video.



> Based just on the poll for this thread we are talking about a group of people that is statistically small.


It's not correct to assume that only those affected by DirecTV's blocking 3D signals when some of their customers need to see them would vote to support those customers with a problem. You don't have a problem, so you don't care, I understand -- but not everyone thinks that way. I happen to have a new 2010 AVR that seems so far to be transparent to DirecTV's 3D checking. But I still think DirecTV should accommodate those customers who are having a problem.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Hoosier205 said:


> There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.


I think I have to agree with this opinion. I've been following this discussion trying to understand the issues. I wanted to form an informed opinion.

I don't have a 3D TV, nor am I likely to buy one for many years. We replaced our main TV within the last few months, and specifically chose not to pay more for a 3D TV. (My personal opinion is that 3D is a fad that will fade, but I've been wrong before and will be again.)

Having seen many post over the years with people having HDMI handshaking and 1080p/24 issues, I have to say that I don't think you can count on AVR or TV manufacturers to follow any set of standards consistantly.

They want a seamless process for their customers. They want it to be easy. However, because they have to coordinate/communicate with other company's units, they just can't control the whole process. While that means more work and support for DIRECTV, I think that is the only customer friendly option they have is to allow a (nonsupported) work around for customers to force play the 3D programs.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Doug or others with pull,
> 
> Would DirecTv be receptive to something like this?


I don't even have to ask to know the answer to this question ..


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

raclevel may be new, but there was some good stuff in his comments ..

But the "easy" fix .. (1) not really so easy in the nuts and bolts, BTW and (2) seems the point DIRECTV is trying to make is reliability .. bypassing the required checks does nothing to improve the reliability. Perhaps if you think on the micro level, but from a macro perspective (you know, in the grand scheme of things), following the standards are where it is. Seems devices simply need to properly support HDMI 1.4a and that that is not exactly the case for some of thes AVRs.



MicroBeta said:


> Good morning raclevel, and welcome to DBSTalk. :welcome_s
> 
> Although you say you are a bit confused, I think you have the discussion well in hand.
> 
> ...


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

jacmyoung said:


> In a nutshell, since the 3D market is so small, DirecTV, a pioneer in providing 3D content, should further limit the 3D base in the hope that it will have a better chance for success


So NOT following standards is the right choice?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> But the "easy" fix .. (1) not really so easy in the nuts and bolts, BTW and (2) seems the point DIRECTV is trying to make is reliability .. bypassing the required checks does nothing to improve the reliability. Perhaps if you think on the micro level, but from a macro perspective (you know, in the grand scheme of things), following the standards are where it is. Seems devices simply need to properly support HDMI 1.4a and that that is not exactly the case for some of thes AVRs.


But here's what I don't understand from reading this thread and maybe I'm missing something.

Customer A has a 3DTV, D*, 3D BD, and an AVR.

D* to 3DTV works
3D BD to 3DTV works
3D BD to AVR to 3DTV works
D* to AVR to 3DTV doesn't work.

Why? It's not an issue with the display. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the AVR and it doesn't seem to be an issue with the BD player. The only issue is with the D* receiver.

If this is some standard, then why isn't anybody else using it?


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Doug Brott" said:


> So NOT following standards is the right choice?


In a way, yes. The concept is sometimes called "backward compatibility". A standard practice when a new tech is introduced.

Imagine when the HDMI standard was first introduced, all the HDTVs with component-only connections were made useless for HD content, what would that have done to HDTV?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

spartanstew said:


> If this is some standard, then why isn't anybody else using it?


That's the million dollar question ..

Is DIRECTV wrong for following the standard or are the other vendors wrong for NOT following the standard?


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> So NOT following standards is the right choice?


Some time the technically "wrong" choice is the best business choice.

Do the standards really say that "if you can't determine that a device is 3D capable, you can't try to send them a 3D signal and let the view decide if it is correct"?


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Seems devices simply need to properly support HDMI 1.4a and that that is not exactly the case for some of thes AVRs.


There may be some ambiguity in this discussion about whether the problem AVRs are those like the 2010 Onkyos which purport to support HDMI 1.4a, but apparently don't "exactly" "properly" support it, or whether they are pre-2010 models which don't even purport to support HDMI 1.4a. HDMI 1.4a wasn't adopted until this year. Not everyone who didn't happen to buy a new AVR in the last few months is willing to accommodate DirecTV's ideas about standards by replacing their otherwise capable AVRs, which in some cases were quite expensive. (Luckily, I did need a new AVR at just the time when AVRs supporting HDMI 1.4a first became available, and my needs for amplification are modest.)


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

This has little to nothing to do with 1.4a. DirecTV simply made a choice and made the issue more complicated than necessary.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Hoosier205 said:


> This has little to nothing to do with 1.4a. DirecTV simply made a choice and made the issue more complicated than necessary.


Support of the side-by-side 3D format DirecTV uses was made mandatory for 3D display devices by HDMI 1.4a, and detecting whether a display device does support that format is what is being discussed in this thread. So it has everything to do with 1.4a.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

I think it's important to understand that 3D is only a portion of HDMI 1.4a. 

On the other hand, something can be HDMI 1.4a and not implement some or all of the 3D portions of the spec.

Is something is 1.4a and is 3D, doesn’t mean it’s done completely...I’m just sayin’ :grin:

Mike


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

GregLee said:


> Support of the side-by-side 3D format DirecTV uses was made mandatory for 3D display devices by HDMI 1.4a, and detecting whether a display device does support that format is what is being discussed in this thread. So it has everything to do with 1.4a.


...no...you just don't get it. I give up. This is a conversation which should be taking place at AVS rather than here. That much is painfully obvious.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

GregLee said:


> Support of the side-by-side 3D format DirecTV uses was made mandatory for 3D display devices by HDMI 1.4a, and detecting whether a display device does support that format is what is being discussed in this thread. So it has everything to do with 1.4a.


Incorrect, that doesn't seem to be what the discussion is about at all.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"Hoosier205" said:


> ...no...you just don't get it. I give up. This is a conversation which should be taking place at AVS rather than here. That much is painfully obvious.


If the discussion is about 3D the technology, then maybe, but if the discussion is about one of the DirecTV's policies, I think this is a better place to be.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

MicroBeta said:


> On the other hand, something can be HDMI 1.4a and not implement some or all of the 3D portions of the spec.


I'm no expert on the details of HDMI, but my information is that 3D display and repeater devices (AVRs) conforming to 1.4a must support the 3D side-by-side format used by DirecTV. This was made a mandatory part of the spec for the first time by HDMI 1.4a. Do you know different?


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I don't even have to ask to know the answer to this question ..


Don't keep us in suspense.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

DirecTv's EDID / VSI system is not working properly. Some people who are using compliant equipment hooked up the way DirecTv states they want it hooked up can not watch 3D while others as evidenced by this post:

"I have my H24-100 connected to our VIZIO VM230XVT. This LCD TV supports all resolutions up to 1080P/60, but does not support 3D. The H24 handshake process incorrectly identifies my TV as 3D capable and in the misc menu says it supports 3D resolutions of 480i/480p/1080i. Tuning to chan 103, etc shows two full images in a side by side mode. I'm not sure if this is a VIZIO HDMI problem or an H24 HDMI problem, but I dumped a report anyway."

DirecTv is great when it comes to software development and testing. However, there are many loyal DBS.talk members who are of the opinion that we need to recognize there is a problem and make it better.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Hoosier205 said:


> ...no...you just don't get it. I give up. This is a conversation which should be taking place at AVS rather than here. That much is painfully obvious.


At AVS you will find Ron Jones' Basic 3D video FAQs, and you can look at his answer to "Question - Do I need a new AV Receiver (AVR) with HDMI version 1.4a inputs and output if I connect the new 3D sources thru the AVR to my 3DTV display or will my old AVR with HDMI inputs work." for a concise account of the relevance of HDMI 1.4a to this matter.


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## Lee L (Aug 15, 2002)

So, I'm confused. Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs? Is that somethign that can be changed with firmware or is it hardware? If the DirecTV boxes are not 1.4a compatible then how is any of this even an issue? Personally, I think 3D won't be sucessfull in the long run, but if I was looking, this kind of confusion would also drive me to reconsider that.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> DirecTv's EDID / VSI system is not working properly. Some people who are using compliant equipment hooked up the way DirecTv states they want it hooked up can not watch 3D while others as evidenced by this post:
> 
> "I have my H24-100 connected to our VIZIO VM230XVT. This LCD TV supports all resolutions up to 1080P/60, but does not support 3D. The H24 handshake process incorrectly identifies my TV as 3D capable and in the misc menu says it supports 3D resolutions of 480i/480p/1080i. Tuning to chan 103, etc shows two full images in a side by side mode. I'm not sure if this is a VIZIO HDMI problem or an H24 HDMI problem, but I dumped a report anyway."
> 
> DirecTv is great when it comes to software development and testing. However, there are many loyal DBS.talk members who are of the opinion that we need to recognize there is a problem and make it better.


If it's the case that DirecTV's implementation of EDID & VSI isn't working correctly then it's not a situation where you want to give the viewer the option to bypass blocking the 3D signal.

The firmware not working correctly becomes a matter of reporting specific 3D problems in the applicable issues thread and getting it problem fixed.

Giving the viewer the option to bypass DirecTV's implementation just to watch 3D would just create a work around that masks the real problem.

IMHO, if the problem is with the firmware, then bypassing it it the wrong way to get it fixed.

Mike


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

All the rhetoric 'contra' arguments sounds to me as SW Dept manager's excuses. Hear that many times.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Lee L said:


> So, I'm confused. Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs? Is that somethign that can be changed with firmware or is it hardware? If the DirecTV boxes are not 1.4a compatible then how is any of this even an issue? Personally, I think 3D won't be sucessfull in the long run, but if I was looking, this kind of confusion would also drive me to reconsider that.


No they don't. At the highest they are 1.3 compliant.

However, the 3D portions of the 1.4a specifications are software based and not really hardware based. As far as a standard high speed HDMI cable is concerned, 1.3 and 1.4 are identical.

For example, the Ethernet over HDMI or the Micro connector cables are physically different from the standard high speed cable and would require the new 1.4 compliant HDMI chip set, but the implementation of 3D only relies on the high speed HDMI. In the case of 3D, 1.3 is equivalent to 1.4 (beyond 3D is another story).

Mike


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

Hoosier205 said:


> There should be a dialog box of some sort that pops up when a display is believed to be incompatible. The user should be able to acknowledge that and attempt to display the 3D content if they wish.


I think we are narrowing down to the real issue here.....

The issue is not the 3D signal formating. All legacy DLP 3D Ready TVs require an adaptor which when in place makes the TV look just like the new 2010 3D TV models. The DTV DVR will recognize the adaptor without any problems. (the 2010 model DLPs TVs not being on the authorized list is a separate issue)

The issue is that hundreds of thousands of legacy HDMI 1.3 AVRs cannot pass the EDID information through to the DVR which requires it to provide seamless operation for a select group of newer 3D TVs. A limited number of models of HDMI 1.4(a) compliant AVRs started to become available earlier this year but the cost to upgrade can be between $500 to several thousand depending on the particular systems needs. This cost is prohibitive for many customers, especially in this economy!!!

Using myself as an example I just finished moving my main audio/visual equipment to a new location and purchased the Yamaha RX-V3900 for about $1800. The replacement model RX-V3067 will not even be available until late this year and will cost between $2K to $3K.

If the solution in the attached can be implemented then I would be able to put off this purchase for several years. I am confident that a vast majority of AVR users are in the same situation as I am...

FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...

Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Lee L said:


> Do any DirecTV reciers have HDMI 1.4a compatible outputs?


That's a difficult matter of terminology. I think the answer is yes, since HDMI 1.4a places no special requirements on 3D signal sources, other than producing one of the 3D formats of the spec. You sometimes see people answering this question the other way, because the satellite receiver HDMI chips were made for an earlier generation of HDMI processing, but the band width of those chips is irrelevant for signal sources, just so long as it is sufficient for the 1080i-compatible SbS 3D video that the DirecTV boxes are producing.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Don't keep us in suspense.


There's suspense? :shrug: I think everyone here knows the answer already, too.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

raclevel said:


> FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) But a week later they grayed out again. In the same time frame some complaints from Panasonic customers showed up in the DTV 3D tech forum because this required them to manually change their TV settings to 3D instead of it being done automatically, they were informed that it was due to "firmware glitch" and would be corrected shortlly and it was, the channels grayed out again...
> 
> Again: The above mentioned fix, would be a win win solution for all customers!!!


Some good stuff there ...


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## jwitt (Jul 6, 2007)

I agree with Geaux,
I and others have been trying to get the Mit's adapter to work with the Gefen detective with infrequent success. Recorded content from when the channels were not greyed out work fine, indicating that the equipment works. Then EDID restrictions were apparently added to the guide causing the inability to watch or record.
*Until last night !*
Kevin 6545 got it up and working with the channels lit up. I also have it working even shutting down entire system and changing channels in and out of 3d.
I believe, or hope, that DTV may be working on lessening EDID restrictions as we chat.
I wish they would communicate in someway what their intentions are and when to expect changes.
I can't speak regarding the new AVR's but it may be worth a try this morning to see if there is any difference.
I don't think much of either Mit's (Promise upgrade a few years ago.) or Samsung (No support of their 3d ready customers including lack of checkerboard on their new 3d BR players). Panasonic and DTV... Great. Just as long as the roughly 4.5 million 3d ready DLP's get access. Including Samsung sets with an EDID spoof tool.
Currently, the 3d on the large DLP's is very impressive. The sets are cheap compared to the smaller, new type, LCD's.
DTV, if your working at making it compatible, let us know...
Kevin's instructions from last night can be had here:
avsforum> 3d central > 3d displays>Mitsubishi 3d checkerboard converter+Gefen HDMI Detective= 3d on Samsung... Post #127 (Sorry, it wouldn't let me post a link due to lack of posts.)
I got the same results with a couple less resets indicated a couple posts after.
JIM


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Some good stuff there ...


So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.

Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

DogLover said:


> So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? *That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.*
> 
> Does this mean that it shouldn't be done? If I am wrong and 3D TVs become very popular, I think DIRECTV will have to consider doing this. AVRs are just too expensive and too long lived to let them stand in the way of people enjoying their 3D sets.


That does not mean it. It's just a FIX.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

There seems to be some incomplete information or logic here.

1) We know both EDID information and VSI frames are used.
2) We know a spoofer can make things work.
3) We know an adapter can make things work for some TVs.
4) We have at least one example of a TV not on the supported list that tries to work...
5) The original "supported" list did say that others will work too.

Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.

Alas, we can't "really" be certain about a white list from the fact that at least one TV worked that wasn't on the supported list. That TV might have a bogus EDID--though it does hint toward an absence of a white list.

To me the really important point was the "others might work too" clause. I'm pretty certain DIRECTV is not using a white list, but rather a stringent feature list through VSI. If the handshake isn't correct, they can't reliably support 3d. (at this time.)

That all said, the standards are still shifting. If nothing else, the interoperability parts are still being tested and defined.

Perhaps DIRECTV will permit a flag to "force enable" 3D. Or perhaps in their analysis of 3D ready TVs that they might try to force enable, they find it isn't worth that effort at this time. I don't know enough of what the VSI bits are used for. If there is anything, anything whatsoever relating to copy protection, you know DIRECTV will not create a force enable flag....

Cheers,
Tom


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

P Smith said:


> That does not mean it. It's just a FIX.


Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.

Whether you call it a FIX for something broken, or a SOLUTION, to support currently unsupported customers, doesn't really matter. It is still a cost/benefit analysis on whether it should be done. Their job is to make money. If they can make more money leaving something broke, that's what they should do. (Of course, estimating the cost/benefit of angry vs happy customers is not an exact science.)


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

raclevel said:


> The new Mitsubishi 2010 models have this adaptor function built in and are fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format.


As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.


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## waltm (Jan 8, 2007)

DogLover said:


> Sorry, if it takes more resources (more programming hours, more testing hours, etc), it is more expensive to the company. I fully understand that any company has to weigh the cost of accomodating customers against the benefit of accomodating them.


If/when they start charging a monthly fee for 3D channels then it would be in their best interest to have the programming available to the largest customer base possible. I'd bet they would find a work around then. How much money are they making from 'unsupported MRV' subscribers?



raclevel said:


> FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries.. We were all excited that the 3D channels were no longer grayed out and we could pass the signal through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs with a Side by Side video showing up on the screen (note that the Mits Adaptors were not available yet) ...


During this same time I was able to see the SbS format on my Mits DLP even tho I have an HR20-700. Wouldn't it be nice it they let us force 3D channels and I could keep my HR20 instead of having to upgrade that as well.....


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## NewForceFiveFan (Apr 23, 2010)

DogLover said:


> Some time the technically "wrong" choice is the best business choice.
> 
> Do the standards really say that "if you can't determine that a device is 3D capable, you can't try to send them a 3D signal and let the view decide if it is correct"?


By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

NewForceFiveFan said:


> By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.


Yes, the issue is complex and you won't make everyone happy. If you allow an override, you will make people with older AVRs happy, but have to support people who don't have 3D TVs and don't understand that they don't have 3D TVs.

As long as 3D TVs are a small subset of the market and they are not charging extra for 3D programming, it is hard to make a business case that they should make the change.

However, if 3D catches on and becomes very popular, I think they will be forced into making this change. There will be too many people with 3D TVs and non-compliant AVRs. (At least in this house, AVRs have a long life span.) They will have to consider a way to make that group happy.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

Tom Robertson said:


> Without knowing how the "spoofer" works, I suggest it might be spoofing the features as well as the EDID (and VSI). That would mean we could not tell if a white list is used or just a capabilities list.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


We know exactly how the "spoofer" works, and you guessed correct. It simply reads the EDID (and obviously the VSI) from a display, saves it, and always sends that particular EDID info regardless of what display is connected afterward.

The company selling the kit for Samsung DLP owners have pre-programmed the Geffen spoofer with a Mits EDID, which is compatible with Directv.

If Directv would ease up on the EDID and VSI restrictions (such as mentioned by raclevel), this would allow most HDMI 1.3 AVRs to work, and more than likely the HR20 series to work also.

Heck, put an option in the settings menu to be able to force 3D.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

GregLee said:


> As a minor note to what you've written, apparently the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs that support the SbS 3D format are not "fully capable of decoding the DTV DVR 3D format", since they still require the external Mitsubishi adapter. Some such solution as the one you discuss could solve this problem, as well.


Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

raclevel said:


> Actually the 2010 Mitsubishi DLPs do not need the adapter to decode the DVR SbS 3D format. DTV did not add them to the "White List" so they require the adaptor just to provide an acceptable EDID. But like I said in my post this is probably a separate issue to what we are trying to resolve here..


Does this mean that if you buy a new 3D capable HDTV and want to watch DirecTv in 3D you can't do it until your HDTV is added to the white list. Is that part of the 3D standard?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Again, I don't there is sufficient evidence to verify there is a whitelist. Indeed, I think there is evidence more strongly indicating there is no whitelist.

This wouldn't be the first time TV makers screwed a standard... many still don't support 1080p correctly. And HDMI was an abomination for many TV makers at first.

Cheers,
Tom


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I am not sure if DirecTv has changed the encoding for its 3D signals again but myself and others have now been able to restore the 3D broadcasts on our HDTVs. Once your DirecTv receiver believes your HDTV is not 3D capable and greys out the channels then it is very difficult to restore the 3D channels for watching. I still believe that there needs to be a work around to resolve this problem.

DirecTv if you did change the 3D encoding then please accept this thank you from a long time customer and keep up the good work. I am using my HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver to listen to programs in 5.1 but I had to switch to toslink as my HDMI sound was limited to 2.0 even though I have Dolby Digital enabled in the audio settings. If DirecTv would not rely on the EDID information to determine audio capabilities then this problem I believe would go away.

On a positive note, I am very pleased with the 3D picture when it works.


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

So this issue is just related to audio capability, nothing to do with 3D?


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

jacmyoung said:


> So this issue is just related to audio capability, nothing to do with 3D?


For some it relates more to audio capability in that they can't have their audio receiver and TV hooked up at the same time via the HDMI data stream--when watching 3D.

For many others it is purely a 3D issue on their TV.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I think the primary issue is running HDMI from STB to AVR to TV not working when STB to TV works just fine.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

There are two major issues as I see them.

1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.

2. The EDID /VSI restrictions that DirecTv uses try to determine what type of equipment you use and only allow that many audio channels to be broadcast. Many of us are limited to 2.0 audio through our HDMI connection into our A/V Receivers because of this. There is a menu selection where the customer can select to enable Dolby Digital (5.1) but the DirecTv receiver is ignoring the customers preference and using the EDID /VSI information instead to output audio instead. It is my understanding that other devices allow the user to control the audio output but this is not the system that Directv uses.

If someone else is aware of other issues then please list them as I am sure there is something I missed.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> There are two major issues as I see them.
> 
> 1. The EDID / VSI restrictions or the way DirecTv sometimes broadcasts the signal prevent those with functioning 3D equipment from sometimes being able to watch DirecTv's broadcasts of 3D channels. The channels are greyed out and are inaccessible. This problem occurs on some 3D equipment that is officially supported and some equipment that is not officially supported by DirecTv. No one seems to know whether there is an official white list of approved gear by DirecTv or not.
> 
> ...


2. I think you may be misunderstanding what the menu option does, or perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. The menu option controls PCM vs Dolby Digital, not 2.0 vs 5.1. While PCM is limited to 2.0, Dolby Digital can also be 2.0. Dolby can also be 5.1, but that depends on the broadcast. Many shows are just not broadcast in 5.1.

Are you saying that you have are seeing a shows that you know are broadcast in 5.1, and you are only getting 2.0? And is it PCM 2.0 or Dolby Digital 2.0?

I can no longer test this easily, since the only place I have an AVR also has a TV that can accept Dolby Digital. (At least I assume it does, since it can output Dolby Digital to an AVR.)


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

I think you should take the matter of DD/PCM to another thread.
:backtotop:


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Been away from the thread for a couple days, have lots to respond to!



GregLee said:


> I don't understand your reasoning. Why would DirecTV include a 2009 model in their list, when we all know that hdmi 1.4a was not adopted until 2010 and no preceding year's models support it? Is that a possible mistake? Besides, I didn't say my "TV wasn't capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d". What I said was subtly different -- that it "could in fact not display DirecTV's 3d signal in 3d". That model, pn42b450, according to its manual, can display in 3d a SBS 728x1024 signal. So it is "capable of converting a SBS signal into 3d." (Of course, the DirecTV boxes don't supply signals at that resolution.)


I simply read that as your display couldn't handle the 3d format that was being sent to it from the DirecTV receiver, yet the receiver allowed it anyway. *IF *DirecTV (and your display) are following the 1.4 3d spec by the book, and using ONLY the 1.4 spec to determine what it does and doesn't send to the display, that shouldn't happen. Not only does the handshake say whether or not it can handle 3d, it says what specific formats and resolutions it can handle. If your TV can't handle what DirecTV is sending, technically you should have gotten the same message the rest of us are getting. From the 1.4 spec: "An HDMI Source shall not send any 3D video format to a Sink that does not indicate support for that
format.". That is why I said your experience suggests a white list rather than just blindly following the HDMI signaling. It would seem more likely for DirecTV to make a mistake on a list, than for the TV to respond as supporting a signal that it can't.



Doug Brott said:


> Seems the argument is "My Blu-Ray player does it .. Why can't DIRECTV"


I wouldn't put it exactly that way&#8230; it's more "DirecTV says my TV isn't 3d capable, but it is. Other sources don't have this problem, so it's obviously an issue that can be worked around."



LarryFlowers said:


> There exists a group of people who invested in 3D televisions that are older and do not use the format that DirecTV has decided to pursue. Understandable these people are not happy with this.


Just for clarification, I think for the vast majority of us, the format isn't the issue. TI came up with a 3d format that was used on legacy 3d ready TVs, the industry ultimately went a different way, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Fortunately Mitsubishi stood by its customers and offered an adapter to convert the new formats to the old format. The issue is when customers have displays that ARE capable of the current formats (be it a new set that handles it natively, or an old set with an adapter), yet DirecTV's equipment insists that it's not a 3d device.



P Smith said:


> All the rhetoric 'contra' arguments sounds to me as SW Dept manager's excuses. Hear that many times.


Agreed. :nono2:



NewForceFiveFan said:


> By taking away the "wrong" choice Directv is protecting their business from the type of people that we put warning labels about the dangers of electricity on electronic items for.


I'm still failing to understand what kinds of "dangers" are involved here. We just want to be able to view 3d on our 3d TVs. 



MicroBeta said:


> If it's the case that DirecTV's implementation of EDID & VSI isn't working correctly then it's not a situation where you want to give the viewer the option to bypass blocking the 3D signal.
> The firmware not working correctly becomes a matter of reporting specific 3D problems in the applicable issues thread and getting it problem fixed.
> Giving the viewer the option to bypass DirecTV's implementation just to watch 3D would just create a work around that masks the real problem.


I don't perceive the issue being that EDID and VSI aren't working correctly. It's simply that the way it was designed eliminates the possibility of backwards compatibility. It's not "broken" per se, it's just written with the assumption that the consumer has bottomless pockets and doesn't mind upgrading their entire system every time the HDMI organization comes up with a new standard. Fortunately, most manufacturers have recognized that this isn't in the best interest of their customers, and have provided a workaround for this particular part of the spec.



raclevel said:


> If DTV eliminates the EDID check and the handshake the 3D signal could be sent through the legacy AVRs to any TV. The problem with this is that the Panasonic customers would have to manually switch their TVs to 3D mode so the seamless operation is lost &#8230;
> FWIW, I'm pretty sure DTV tried to fix this issue in early July by removing the EDID checks but changed back when they recieved complaints from several customers who were using new Panasonic 3D TVs. This is just a guess based on observation and various tech forum entries..





DogLover said:


> So that means that they'd have to find a way to make other configurations work, without breaking the "automatic" nature of the Panasonic TV's and other working configurations? That does mean that it would likely be a more complex fix, which means likely a more expensive fix.


I'm not convinced that allowing a work-around and having 3d autoswitch are mutually exclusive. The spec says that a source won't send a signal that the connecting device doesn't report that it supports. The "problem" occurs when the DirecTV receiver is connected to a device that doesn't report back that it's capable of the 3d signal it's trying to send. In that case, it just won't even send the video signal to the device. ALLOWING the signal to go anyway shouldn't change the way things work for newer TVs that understand (and respond to) the handshake. If the header information says it's a 3d signal, they should autoswitch. It seems much more likely to me that the issue a couple weeks ago was that somehow, those channels simply got coded that they weren't 3d. Therefore, the auto-switch didn't happen, and the receiver didn't care whether or not the device it was connected to was 3d.



Doug Brott said:


> Is DIRECTV wrong for following the standard or are the other vendors wrong for NOT following the standard? &#8230;
> The Blu-Ray player either chose to disregard the spec or ignored it completely and then works. DIRECTV has chosen to follow the spec and folks here are asking that DIRECTV NOT follow the spec. So what's right? Right is probably to follow the spec, but understandably it feels wrong. &#8230;
> So NOT following standards is the right choice?


It's interesting that this is being portrayed as some type of right/wrong or even "moral" issue. It seems much more simple (or at least tangible) to me: The HDMI organization put a rule in the 1.4 spec that essentially says that a source device shall not send a signal to an end device that the end device can't understand. On the surface, that seems very logical, just like it's very logical to not send a 24p signal to a display that can't handle it. The problem, of course, is that you COULD end up in a situation where the source is sending a signal that can't be displayed, and once you do that, it's difficult to fix because you can no longer see the interface to switch it back to something that works. And I'm sure that the rule was intended with the good intention of preventing such a situation. The problem obviously is that without an override, you are essentially forcing customers to upgrade equipment that doesn't need to be upgraded. Fortunately, many manufacturers have recognized this potential pitfall, and have enabled a work-around for their customers.

In the case of DirecTV, the risk is particularly benign, because the formats they use LOOK like a regular HD signal. Sending a frame-packed signal (e.g. 3d Blu-ray) to a display that can't handle it could likely cause the screen to go black. But the formats DirecTV uses simply results in a (side by side, or potentially top/bottom) double image. You can still view and make out the image, so it's easy to fix if you accidentally enable it on a 2d display. Even if they were to use a format in the future that could potentially result in a black screen on a non-HD display, they already have a workaround for that for 24p. You say you want that format, but it doesn't stick until you've confirmed that it actually works. If you don't don't confirm the change (after not being able to see the prompt in how to respond saying you do), it reverts back to the "normal" format. Simple.

We're not talking about anything significant here. It's not (or shouldn't be) something controversial like abortion or religion. We're simply asking for a workaround (like other manufacturers have allowed) to allow some backwards compatibility so we don't have to go off and replace perfectly good receivers that don't have any problem relaying the signal. Technically, it wouldn't even violate any "rules". DirecTV receivers aren't 1.4 devices. They are simply using the standards the industry (and the 1.4 spec) have adopted. That doesn't mean they have to adopt every part of 1.4. In fact, they CAN'T adopt every part of 1.4, because the hardware isn't capable. Why is this such a big deal? 

And last, but not least:


spartanstew said:


> Hey Darin, how've you been?


A bit frustrated, but otherwise well. Hope all is well with you too!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

P Smith said:


> I think you should take the matter of DD/PCM to another thread.
> :backtotop:


Except for the fact that it might apply to a 3D conversation...

If the optical output is not accepted as 5.1 because the TV is hooked up via HDMI to achieve 3D, it applies. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

DarinC said:


> That is why I said your experience suggests a white list rather than just blindly following the HDMI signaling. It would seem more likely for DirecTV to make a mistake on a list, than for the TV to respond as supporting a signal that it can't.


Apparently I still haven't managed to be clear. I wasn't suggesting that my TV responded as supporting a signal that it can't. I was suggesting the DirecTV box checked that the TV accepted a SbS 3D format, which it does, but that it didn't occur to the DirecTV engineers to also check that the TV accepted that format in a 1080i resolution. After all, it is a rather arcane issue -- did you know that a TV would accept a SbS 3D signal but only at a 768x1024 resolution? But the point is that it is only possible to understand the mistake if one assumes the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, not specific models.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

GregLee said:


> did you know that a TV would accept a SbS 3D signal but only at a 768x1024 resolution? But the point is that it is only possible to understand the mistake if one assumes the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, not specific models.


Yes, apparently we are still disconnecting.  I didn't know what specific resolutions your TV accepted, and it shouldn't matter for the purpose of this conversation. I'm simply saying that if the DirecTV box is looking at capabilities, it shouldn't have sent your TV a signal that it couldn't handle. That's as much a part of VSI as 3d or no 3d. In fact, if your TV is that old, it shouldn't be 1.4, and therefore shouldn't even be able to respond to VSI (as VSI is new to 1.4).

In other words, if VSI is the issue, how is it that the DVR allowed a 3d signal to it? It shouldn't be able to respond any better than an HDMI 1.3 AVR. Unless, of course, the occurance you're speaking of was during those few days a couple weeks ago when some 3d channels were "open". In that case, it's all moot.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DarinC said:


> I wouldn't put it exactly that way&#8230; it's more "DirecTV says my TV isn't 3d capable, but it is. Other sources don't have this problem, so it's obviously an issue that can be worked around."


Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin

It's the AVR that DIRECTV is saying isn't 3D capable and is technically accurate because it's not getting the right response information. When plugged directly into the TV I thought that this issue was non existent as long as the TV is truly compatible.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin


No, that's MY issue, but it's not everyone's issue.


> When plugged directly into the TV I thought that this issue was non existent as long as the TV is truly compatible.


2010 Mitsubishis are truly compatible with DirecTV's 3d format, yet it still says they aren't even when directly plugged in to the TV.

But again, even in the case of an AVR, the TV is 3d capable, and the AVR is perfectly capable of relaying that signal. It's not a compatibility issue from the equipment's perspective, it's an issue of the DVR being able to CONFIRM compatibility. We're simply asking for the option to say "yes, there is indeed a 3d display at the other end of that AVR".


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Isn't this only a problem when going through the AVR? :scratchin


No, it isn't. But why do you ask that? Is the idea that if all the problems could be traced to use of an AVR, then DirectTV could just say: "We don't support AVRs. Don't use an AVR. Not our fault."?

I'm not giving up my AVR. Not ever.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

GregLee said:


> No, it isn't. But why do you ask that? Is the idea that if all the problems could be traced to use of an AVR, then DirectTV could just say: "We don't support AVRs. Don't use an AVR. Not our fault."?
> 
> I'm not giving up my AVR. Not ever.


I had to give up on my old AVR, didn't support HDMI.

By the same token, if my current AVR can't be upgraded to support 3D, I just might have to upgrade it too--along with the TV. 

I don't think DIRECTV is saying "no AVRs, ever." They are saying that most AVRs don't support 3D correctly.

Cheers,
Tom


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

The bottom line is, the top priority for DirecTV is to get its 3D channels to play on as many sets as possible, not to try to conform to some arbitrary standards which its own receivers cannot even meet 100%.

I wonder if Panasonic required this as one of the conditions to sponsor the 3D programming on DirecTV?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> I don't think DIRECTV is saying "no AVRs, ever." They are saying that most AVRs don't support 3D correctly.


I don't think they're even saying that. Because most of them should support the the formats DirecTV is using, assuming they could already handle HD. I think DirecTV simply took the 3d section of 1.4 and applied it literally, without much thought about the pitfalls.


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

DarinC said:


> I don't think they're even saying that. Because most of them should support the the formats DirecTV is using, assuming they could already handle HD. I think DirecTV simply took the 3d section of 1.4 and applied it literally, without much thought about the pitfalls.


Actually they used the 1.3 standards to accomplish that which the standards were meant to accomplish. 

Unfortunately, most AVRs apparently [edit] don't know how to pass these frames thru. So you have to see if you can upgrade the firmware (possible for some of them) or upgrade to a 3D compatible AVR.

Just like upgrading to HDMI some time ago...

Cheers,
Tom


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually they used the 1.3 standards to accomplish that which the standards were meant to accomplish.


Doug has suggested that the problem is due to VSI. VSI isn't a part of 1.3. Are you suggesting that the issue has nothing to do with VSI?



> Unfortunately, most AVRs apparently know how to pass these frames thru.


Why is that unfortunate? 



> Just like upgrading to HDMI some time ago...


Except that it's not like that.  Upgrading to HDMI brought capabilities that the former connections didn't provide. In this case, the capabilities are already there, but DirecTV won't let us use them.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

To me, the issue is very clear. DirecTV is blocking something that they really have no reason to block. Sending the 3D signalling to switch the TV to 3D mode is great, but there's absolutely no reason to block the content from being displayed if a 3DTV isn't detected.

I have a 3DTV, and it works just fine with DirecTV's 3D content. But I still don't see why anyone should be excluded.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> To me, the issue is very clear. DirecTV is blocking something that they really have no reason to block. Sending the 3D signalling to switch the TV to 3D mode is great, but there's absolutely no reason to block the content from being displayed if a 3DTV isn't detected.
> 
> I have a 3DTV, and it works just fine with DirecTV's 3D content. But I still don't see why anyone should be excluded.


so you subscribe to the notion to just send it along .. What if I were to turn my non-3DTV onto a 3D channel. Clearly my TV wouldn't respond with a "Yeah, I'm a good TV" so what would I see? Will it fix itself when I change to another channel? What if it doesn't?

So the potential pitfalls with allowing a free for all on the 3D channels are legacy HD sets showing a garbled mess (snow, static, :shrug or worse.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> What if I were to turn my non-3DTV onto a 3D channel. Clearly my TV wouldn't respond with a "Yeah, I'm a good TV" so what would I see?


You'd see two images, side-by-side.


Doug Brott said:


> Will it fix itself when I change to another channel? What if it doesn't?


It will, because it's a standard picture. It's not going to hurt your TV.


Doug Brott said:


> So the potential pitfalls with allowing a free for all on the 3D channels are legacy HD sets showing a garbled mess (snow, static, :shrug or worse.


Legacy sets will show a side-by-side image. That's it. No garbled mess, no snow, no static. The attached image is exactly what it would look like.

DirecTV could even pop up a message if a 3DTV isn't detected, warning the viewer that they may see a "scary" side-by-side image on their screen. I really don't see the big deal.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

DogLover said:


> 2. I think you may be misunderstanding what the menu option does, or perhaps I don't understand what you are saying. The menu option controls PCM vs Dolby Digital, not 2.0 vs 5.1. While PCM is limited to 2.0, Dolby Digital can also be 2.0. Dolby can also be 5.1, but that depends on the broadcast. Many shows are just not broadcast in 5.1.
> 
> Are you saying that you have are seeing a shows that you know are broadcast in 5.1, and you are only getting 2.0? And is it PCM 2.0 or Dolby Digital 2.0?
> 
> I can no longer test this easily, since the only place I have an AVR also has a TV that can accept Dolby Digital. (At least I assume it does, since it can output Dolby Digital to an AVR.)


I will try to be very clear. In the menu under System Setup there is an Audio option. Under the Audio option there is a Dolby Digital option. The Dolby Digital option gives you the choice to turn Dolby Digital On or Off. It states "When set to On, Dolby Digital will play for programs that offer it. If your TV or stereo doesn't support Dolby Digital set to Off which will play standard audio (PCM)."

My A/V receiver supports Dolby Digital through both HDMI and toslink. I therefor have the setting set to On under the Dolby Digital option. My HDTV is a 3D ready DLP HDTV and therefor I need the Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Checkerboard converter to watch 3D on my HDTV. The 3DA-1 is listed as being supported by DirecTv for 3D.

When I am not using the 3DA-1 I am able to get Dolby Digital 5.1 through my A/V Receiver using the HDMI connection. However, when I use the 3DA-1 I am limited to 2.0 audio through HDMI on a broadcast that was previously broadcasting 5.1. If DirecTv would allow follow the user selection from the menu rather than the EDID information then myself and others would be able to enjoy Dolby Digital 5.1 through our A/V Receivers using the HDMI connection. I can get 5.1 through the toslink connection but one of the benefits of HDMI is being able to run one cable from your gear for simplification. Additionally, in my case I had to unplug a piece of equipment from a toslink connection on my A/V Receiver in order to be able to plug in my DirecTv HR24-500 into a toslink input on the A/V Receiver.

Other 3D capable gear allows the user to select the audio configuration. For instance one person told me his TIVO hooked up to cable broadcasts 5.1 over HDMI using a setup involving a 3DA-1 and 3D. If DirecTv would follow the selection made by the customer then this would not be an issue in my opinion.

On a positive note, I want to think DirecTv for making some changes to the way it broadcasts 3D as several of us are now once again able to watch 3D again. We appreciate Directv listening to its customers and improving its product.


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## DogLover (Mar 19, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> I will try to be very clear. In the menu under System Setup there is an Audio option. Under the Audio option there is a Dolby Digital option. The Dolby Digital option gives you the choice to turn Dolby Digital On or Off. It states "When set to On, Dolby Digital will play for programs that offer it. If your TV or stereo doesn't support Dolby Digital set to Off which will play standard audio (PCM)."
> 
> My A/V receiver supports Dolby Digital through both HDMI and toslink. I therefor have the setting set to On under the Dolby Digital option. My HDTV is a 3D ready DLP HDTV and therefor I need the Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Checkerboard converter to watch 3D on my HDTV. The 3DA-1 is listed as being supported by DirecTv for 3D.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I'm still not clear if you are saying that it is outputing PCM 2.0 or Dolby 2.0, but it doesn't really matter if you know that without the converter you are getting Dolby 5.1 through HDMI.

This actually makes some sense with a situation that I had with my previous TV. It was an old DLP that used a DVI connection. With DVR to AVR to DVI-TV, the audio was not played by the AVR when only HDMI was connected. I also had to use toslink. The AVR manual said that might happen with DVI TVs, so I blamed the AVR. No, I'm wondering if this was an EDID info problem. (I may have never tried setting the DVR to PCM, since I just assumed it was a limitation of the AVR.)


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> You'd see two images, side-by-side.
> 
> It will, because it's a standard picture. It's not going to hurt your TV.
> 
> ...


(1) many folks, especially those here @ DBSTalk, would accept this dual screen. It's a necessary evil so that 3DTVs work as well as expected.

(2) many other folks would, in fact, be "scared" by this (rightfully so or not) and would ultimately call DIRECTV asking for it's removal or to "fix" the station. Additionally the content would still be there and (quite frankly) DIRECTV may not have the licensing rights to show the content to non-3D subscribers. This becomes a legal issue as well if that's true (again regardless of "right" or "wrong").

Long term, I think everyone would agree that TV & AVR vendors as well as DIRECTV getting things fixed to the real standards is the best choice. At some point TVs, AVRs and all other A/V equipment should work with the "real" 3D.

Things will get better as compatibility increases.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> many other folks would, in fact, be "scared" by this (rightfully so or not) and would ultimately call DIRECTV asking for it's removal or to "fix" the station.


That's why they could put up a warning message. Or have a setting buried in the menus somewhere, with a disclaimer when you enable it. I'd even be happy with a search term like they use for 30-second skip. Anything aside from an outright block would be an improvement.


Doug Brott said:


> Additionally the content would still be there and (quite frankly) DIRECTV may not have the licensing rights to show the content to non-3D subscribers. This becomes a legal issue as well if that's true (again regardless of "right" or "wrong").


I'd find it incredibly hard to believe that DirecTV's 3D carriage terms include such language, especially since no other provider has the same limitations. I also can't see why the content providers would care.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> I'd find it incredibly hard to believe that DirecTV's 3D carriage terms include such language, especially since no other provider has the same limitations. I also can't see why the content providers would care.


just a thought .. it may not be an issue.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> (1) many folks, especially those here @ DBSTalk, would accept this dual screen. It's a necessary evil so that 3DTVs work as well as expected.
> 
> (2) many other folks would, in fact, be "scared" by this (rightfully so or not) and would ultimately call DIRECTV asking for it's removal or to "fix" the station. Additionally the content would still be there and (quite frankly) DIRECTV may not have the licensing rights to show the content to non-3D subscribers. This becomes a legal issue as well if that's true (again regardless of "right" or "wrong").
> 
> ...


That is why I suggested a secret search term several posts back. Normal DirecTv customers don't use secret search terms but DBStalk / DirecTv customers do. A win - win solution.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> What if I were to turn my non-3DTV onto a 3D channel. Clearly my TV wouldn't respond with a "Yeah, I'm a good TV" so what would I see? Will it fix itself when I change to another channel? What if it doesn't?


People have posted plenty of ways to deal with this, many/most of which DirecTV is already doing in some fashion or another. It could be just like it does when you try to record a 3d show (we don't detect a 3d TV... tune to channel anyway?), it could be handled in the HD resolution screen like 24p (press "-" if you see a see a 3d image), an allow 3d when not detected keyword, etc. This isn't a difficult issue.

Why do I feel like people are just trying to come up with reasons why it can't/shouldn't be done? :shrug:


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## jacmyoung (Sep 9, 2006)

"geaux tigers" said:


> That is why I suggested a secret search term several posts back. Normal DirecTv customers don't use secret search terms but DBStalk / DirecTv customers do. A win - win solution.


Well since it appears DirecTV has already made some changes, let's hope we are on our way to a better future


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

DarinC said:


> Doug has suggested that the problem is due to VSI. VSI isn't a part of 1.3. Are you suggesting that the issue has nothing to do with VSI?
> 
> Why is that unfortunate?
> 
> Except that it's not like that.  Upgrading to HDMI brought capabilities that the former connections didn't provide. In this case, the capabilities are already there, but DirecTV won't let us use them.


 Ooops! my bad. I've corrected my post:
Unfortunately, most AVRs apparently [edit] don't know how to pass these frames thru.

My understanding, from DIRECTV, is that hdmi 1.3 (or 1.3a?) created the VSI frames. That they were not a 1.4 invention. I'll try to check.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DarinC said:


> People have posted plenty of ways to deal with this, many/most of which DirecTV is already doing in some fashion or another. It could be just like it does when you try to record a 3d show (we don't detect a 3d TV... tune to channel anyway?), it could be handled in the HD resolution screen like 24p (press "-" if you see a see a 3d image), an allow 3d when not detected keyword, etc. This isn't a difficult issue.
> 
> Why do I feel like people are just trying to come up with reasons why it can't/shouldn't be done? :shrug:


well rather than back doors, let's start with hardware situations that may be broken

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182213


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

waltm said:


> If/when they start charging a monthly fee for 3D channels then it would be in their best interest to have the programming available to the largest customer base possible. I'd bet they would find a work around then. How much money are they making from 'unsupported MRV' subscribers?
> 
> During this same time I was able to see the SbS format on my Mits DLP even tho I have an HR20-700. Wouldn't it be nice it they let us force 3D channels and I could keep my HR20 instead of having to upgrade that as well.....


Now that I think about it I also had an HR20-700 when I saw this. If a way to override the 3d TV check was put into place and this allowed all the HR20s out there to work I would think this would be a huge incentive for DTV to implement one of the suggested solutions. They currently have to replace all those HR20s when a customer adds a 3D TV. And 3D is just now starting to catch on...


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Tom Robertson said:


> My understanding, from DIRECTV, is that hdmi 1.3 (or 1.3a?) created the VSI frames. That they were not a 1.4 invention.


My understanding is that the Vendor Specific InfoFrame wasn't _defined _until 1.4. 1.3 may have had a packet reserved for it, but there was not yet any definition for it. And as per the hdmi spec, any infoframe that is not defined will not be transmitted. If they were defined in CEA-861-D, then it would have been allowed. But as far as I can tell, CEA-861-D still doesn't contain any 3d specs, so the HDMI organization added some in 1.4.
[/QUOTE]



Doug Brott said:


> well rather than back doors, let's start with hardware situations that may be broken
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182213


That is a good idea. My 3d adapter still hasn't arrived. I'm confident that it won't work through my AVR based on postings by others with similar equipment, but I"ll hold of on posting there until I can confirm first hand.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

DarinC said:


> My understanding is that the Vendor Specific InfoFrame wasn't _defined _until 1.4. 1.3 may have had a packet reserved for it, but there was not yet any definition for it. And as per the hdmi spec, any infoframe that is not defined will not be transmitted.


I believe you are correct on all those understandings.

HDMI v1.4, and more so 1.4a, work to pin down those definition requirements.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote from Darin C:

"That is a good idea. My 3d adapter still hasn't arrived. I'm confident that it won't work through my AVR based on postings by others with similar equipment, but I"ll hold of on posting there until I can confirm first hand.[/QUOTE]

My Mitsubishi 3D-A1 3D converter works going through my A/V Receiver using the HDMI connection. However, I only get stereo, 2.0 sound. Mitsubishi put EDID restrictions on its converters where the converter would only work for Mitsubishi HDTVs. They said this was so they would not have to offer support for non Mitsubishi HDTVs but I believe that they did not want Samsung 3D ready DLP owners to benefit from their product. Samsung was the only other company that made 3D ready DLP HDTVs that would be compatible with such a product. Mitsubishi could of required customers to have the serial numbers of their HDTVs ready when calling in if that was their real purpose in my opinion. Don't get me wrong as Samsung is the most culpable as they chose not to support their existing customers.

Mitsubishi screwed everyone by doing this. In order to use the 3DA-1 officially it has to be connected directly to a Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV. Unofficially, if you have a Samsung 3D ready DLP or want to use your A/V Receiver then you need to purchase a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus and program the EDID of one of the supported EDIDs into the Gefen.

However, the sound from HDMI is only 2.0 PCM because DirecTv is using the EDID information to determine what audio format to send out rather than the customers selection from the audio menu from the DirecTv Receiver. The 3D checkerboard signal from the 3DA-1 is compatible with HDMI 1.3 equipment unlike the other 3D signals. Therefore, Mitsubishi screwed its own customers by putting in the EDID checks into the converter because now Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV owners need to buy a Gefen in order to use their A/V Receiver.

If DirecTv would use the customers audio selection rather than the EDID information for audio selection then this problem would go away. Others who use a 3DA-1 have indicated that they own other gear that allows the user to determine the audio rather than the EDID so I know this is possible.

By the way, I am not looking for official support from either Mitsubishi or DirecTv when using these products as I know that it is not officially supported but the fix seems so simple that it sure would be nice for DirecTv to do it. Additionally, I do not see how a fix would impact anyone else negatively.

Again, I appreciate the changes that DirecTv has made to their 3D Broadcasts so far that has allowed many of us to once again watch 3D.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> However, I only get stereo, 2.0 sound.


I'm having a hard time figuring this out. "2.0 sound" would ordinarily refer to Dolby Digital 2.0 sound -- is that what you mean? Or do you mean 2 channel pcm sound?


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

GregLee said:


> I'm having a hard time figuring this out. "2.0 sound" would ordinarily refer to Dolby Digital 2.0 sound -- is that what you mean? Or do you mean 2 channel pcm sound?


2.0 sound can either be Dolby Digital 2.0, two-channel stereo, or two-channel, pcm. Regardless of which specific flavor, it is 2.0 rather than 5.1.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Hoosier205 said:


> 2.0 sound can either be Dolby Digital 2.0, two-channel stereo, or two-channel, pcm. Regardless of which specific flavor, it is 2.0 rather than 5.1.


Well, as usual, you don't understand the issue. geaux tigers says he wants the sound format to be chosen by the receiver's menu choice, but there is no menu that allows a selection between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1. And two channel pcm is not referred to as "2.0", because it would imply a contrast with "2.1". But "pcm 2.1" would have to have a band limited third channel, and there is no such pcm format in use. There is no point in band-limiting a pcm channel.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

GregLee said:


> I'm having a hard time figuring this out. "2.0 sound" would ordinarily refer to Dolby Digital 2.0 sound -- is that what you mean? Or do you mean 2 channel pcm sound?


I checked my A/V Receiver and it shows that the sound over the HDMI input is PCM. I edited my post to reflect that. The same channel over toslink is Dolby Digital 5.1. I hope this clears everything up.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

How big of a problem is this really? I started this thread 24 hours back, but it's mostly empty. That is the thread that DIRECTV is going to monitor for specific "broken" situations.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> How big of a problem is this really? I started this thread 24 hours back, but it's mostly empty.


Please be patient. Putting together a cogent problem report is work, and you know, we're not getting paid for this. We just have to squeeze it in.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

GregLee said:


> Please be patient. Putting together a cogent problem report is work, and you know, we're not getting paid for this. We just have to squeeze it in.


 .. OK


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

GregLee said:


> Well, as usual, you don't understand the issue. geaux tigers says he wants the sound format to be chosen by the receiver's menu choice, but there is no menu that allows a selection between DD 2.0 and DD 5.1. And two channel pcm is not referred to as "2.0", because it would imply a contrast with "2.1". But "pcm 2.1" would have to have a band limited third channel, and there is no such pcm format in use. There is no point in band-limiting a pcm channel.


I am well aware of that. Nice try though.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

The number of audio channels 1.0 mono all the way to 5.1 is determined by the program material you are watching. However, in the DirecTv menu under the audio settings there is an option to set Dolby Digital on or off. On is suppose to send a Dolby Digital and off sends a PCM signal. However, DirecTv when using a Mitsubishi 3DA-1 is automatically sending a 2.0 PCM signal over the HDMI output regardless of anything else. My preference would be for DirecTv to honor the audio selection of the customer.

I hope I have explained this issue in a simple straight forward manner but apparently I have not as some people still seem confused by the issue.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> However, DirecTv when using a Mitsubishi 3DA-1 is automatically sending a 2.0 PCM signal over the HDMI output regardless of anything else.


How do you know this? Is the sound format shown on your receiver's display? What exactly is shown? Does the receiver indicate the number of pcm channels? I don't mean to be doubting your conclusions, but I feel insecure not knowing the actual evidence.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

GregLee said:


> How do you know this? Is the sound format shown on your receiver's display? What exactly is shown? Does the receiver indicate the number of pcm channels? I don't mean to be doubting your conclusions, but I feel insecure not knowing the actual evidence.


My A/V receiver is an Onkyo TX-SR805. The LCD on the front displays the source of the audio (HDMI or Digital), the Number of Channels (1.0 - 7.1), and the type (Dolby Digital, PCM, DTS-HD, etc.). When the 3DA-1 is connected I only receive PCM 2.0 when connected to my DirecTv HR24-500 when watching a show that is broadcasting Dolby Digital 5.1. When the 3DA-1 is removed then I receive Dolby Digital 5.1. Dolby Digital is set to on in the menu settings of the HR24-500 both times.

Therefor, my hypothesis is that the DirecTv receiver is only using the EDID information from the 3DA-1 which tells the DirecTv Receiver to send a PCM 2.0 signal because it believes it is hooked up to a Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV that is only capable of broadcasting a stereo signal.

Does anyone else have a different hypothesis besides this? Greg, what is your hypothesis?

If DirecTv followed the audio selection that was made by the customer then I believe this problem would go away. Any thoughts on this?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I'm not sure that DIRECTV is using the EDID to control the audio type.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> ... send a PCM 2.0 signal because it believes it is hooked up to a Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTV that is only capable of broadcasting a stereo signal.
> 
> Does anyone else have a different hypothesis besides this? Greg, what is your hypothesis?


I don't have a theory. I just can't quite make sense of yours. Why do you say a Mitsubishi HDTV would only be "capable of broadcasting a stereo signal"?


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I'm not sure that DIRECTV is using the EDID to control the audio type.


Doug,

If you could ask then that would be a big help. Thanks.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Doug,
> 
> If you could ask then that would be a big help. Thanks.


already have ..

Generally speaking, the checks that are done include things like this:

-) Does the TV support 3D?

-) Does the TV support 1080i, 1080p24, 720p60?

-) Does the TV support automatic switching between SD/HD & 3D?


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> -) Does the TV support 1080i, 1080p24, 720p60?


My HR24 reports that my TV supports only one 3D resolution: 1080i. Is this a bug? Will there be 3D from DirecTV at 1080p24 and 720p60?


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

GregLee said:


> My HR24 reports that my TV supports only one 3D resolution: 1080i. Is this a bug? Will there be 3D from DirecTV at 1080p24 and 720p60?


:shrug: Always possible I assume ...


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> already have ..
> 
> Generally speaking, the checks that are done include things like this:
> 
> ...


Could you ask if the EDID information also asks what audio the HDTV supports. The only reason I believe that it is Directv limiting the audio rather than Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Converter is this. One 3DA-1 user told me his cable box TIVO passed 5.1 audio when connected to his 3DA-1 and his A/V Receiver. According to him his A/V Receiver passed 5.1 through the HDMI connection. He is using a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus to allow him to use his A/V Receiver with the 3DA-1. Thanks for checking on this.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Could you ask if the EDID information also asks what audio the HDTV supports. The only reason I believe that it is Directv limiting the audio rather than Mitsubishi 3DA-1 3D Converter is this. One 3DA-1 user told me his cable box TIVO passed 5.1 audio when connected to his 3DA-1 and his A/V Receiver. According to him his A/V Receiver passed 5.1 through the HDMI connection. He is using a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus to allow him to use his A/V Receiver with the 3DA-1. Thanks for checking on this.


That's the "already have" in the post you quoted.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> That's the "already have" in the post you quoted.


Thanks for checking. However, it puzzles me why other equipment such as a TIVO will output Dolby Digital 5.1 through the 3DA-1 while the DirecTv Receivers only output 2.0 PCM when connected to the 3DA-1.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

geaux tigers said:


> However, it puzzles me why other equipment such as a TIVO will output Dolby Digital 5.1 through the 3DA-1 while the DirecTv Receivers only output 2.0 PCM when connected to the 3DA-1.


To me the situation isn't puzzling. It pretty much mirrors the situation with 3d video. Based on the reports, it sounds like the 3DA-1 only reports back 2 channel capability through it's EDID data (or perhaps it doesn't report any audio capability, and therefore the signal defaults to basic 2 channel audio). That's not too surprising, since you would probably expect it to essentially mirror the audio capabilities of the TV that it's being connected to, and they do only have two speakers.

What IS puzzling is the recurring suggestion that it would be wrong for DirecTV to not follow the HDMI standards and offer a workaround for situations where those "rules" are problematic, yet it's suggested that they don't check the audio at all. After all, there are "rules" in the HDMI standard for audio that are very similar to the ones for video as far as not passing a signal that the sink can't handle:


> A Source shall read the EDID 1.3 and first CEA Extension to determine the capabilities supported by the Sink. Additional extensions may be read to discover additional capabilities. The Source is responsible for any format conversions that may be necessary to supply audio and video in an understandable form to the Sink. However, it is permitted for a Source to transmit Basic Audio (see Section 7.2.6) to a Sink that does not indicate support for Basic Audio.


To me, it seems much more likely that DirecTV is again following the HDMI spec to the letter, but they were simply in error in communicating that to Doug. The rules do exist for a reason, it's just that the spec doesn't include any contingency for configurations that fall outside of a "per spec" configuration. Many people have become painfully aware that HDMI isn't the panacea of a/v component connections that it was first hoped it would be. Sure, there's now theoretically a single cable with sufficient bandwidth and security where there used to be multiple cables, but it has introduced its own set of headaches that didn't exist before. That's probably why so many manufacturers are offering "looser" restrictions: the spec as written just doesn't work for some configurations. _Hopefully _DirecTV will follow suit once they better understand the situation.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

DarinC said:


> To me the situation isn't puzzling. It pretty much mirrors the situation with 3d video. Based on the reports, it sounds like the 3DA-1 only reports back 2 channel capability through it's EDID data (or perhaps it doesn't report any audio capability, and therefore the signal defaults to basic 2 channel audio). That's not too surprising, since you would probably expect it to essentially mirror the audio capabilities of the TV that it's being connected to, and they do only have two speakers.
> 
> What IS puzzling is the recurring suggestion that it would be wrong for DirecTV to not follow the HDMI standards and offer a workaround for situations where those "rules" are problematic, yet it's suggested that they don't check the audio at all. After all, there are "rules" in the HDMI standard for audio that are very similar to the ones for video as far as not passing a signal that the sink can't handle:
> 
> To me, it seems much more likely that DirecTV is again following the HDMI spec to the letter, but they were simply in error in communicating that to Doug. The rules do exist for a reason, it's just that the spec doesn't include any contingency for configurations that fall outside of a "per spec" configuration. Many people have become painfully aware that HDMI isn't the panacea of a/v component connections that it was first hoped it would be. Sure, there's now theoretically a single cable with sufficient bandwidth and security where there used to be multiple cables, but it has introduced its own set of headaches that didn't exist before. That's probably why so many manufacturers are offering "looser" restrictions: the spec as written just doesn't work for some configurations. _Hopefully _DirecTV will follow suit once they better understand the situation.


Darin,

Your guess regarding what is really going on is the same as mine. I keep on asking the questions and I keep on getting very short answers back. I am trying to be as diplomatic as I know how and I do appreciate the changes that DirecTv has made so far. Technology such as this needs to have some user selectability. Of course in the audio menu they give you the control and the EDID takes it away. Maybe, everything is being controlled by HAL.

HAL: You selected Dolby Digital in the audio menu but you really don't want that. My readings indicate you can not handle that.

DirecTv Customer: I really do want that as I have an A/V Receiver that can handle Dolby Digital 5.1 plus a whole lot more over HDMI.

HAL: I know what's best for you and thank you for being a DirecTv customer?

One day I guess my GPS will be allowed to navigate my car even if the GPS has faulty data.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I know very little here .. I'm doing what I can to help believe it or not. So far there hasn't been an upswell of people with complaints, but there are a few folks that are having issues.

I'm waiting for a more definitive answer on the audio but I certainly don't expect it before tomorrow and it may be a few days.

What I do know is that consistent & reliable experience is going to be more likely with DIRECTV than any kind of kludge. It is also possible that there are defects in the current software that need to be corrected because DIRECTV is doing something different than they think they are doing. This is where specific hardware and additional information can be useful.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> I know very little here .. I'm doing what I can to help believe it or not. So far there hasn't been an upswell of people with complaints, but there are a few folks that are having issues.
> 
> I'm waiting for a more definitive answer on the audio but I certainly don't expect it before tomorrow and it may be a few days.
> 
> What I do know is that consistent & reliable experience is going to be more likely with DIRECTV than any kind of kludge. It is also possible that there are defects in the current software that need to be corrected because DIRECTV is doing something different than they think they are doing. This is where specific hardware and additional information can be useful.


Doug,

Anything you can find out is greatly appreciated. My interest is in DirecTv improving its product which will of course benefit myself and others. I have posted at the new thread that was established and have encouraged others to do the same.


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

Doug Brott said:


> I know very little here .. I'm doing what I can to help believe it or not. So far there hasn't been an upswell of people with complaints, but there are a few folks that are having issues.


I know, I expect there are very few people within DirecTV that even really know what's going on as far as HDMI handshakes, etc. So I know getting an informative answer may not be so simple. I wouldn't expect a lot feedback on the issue _yet_, since 3d is so new and so few people have it. But hopefully you'll get enough reports in and the whole situation can be improved _before _there's an upswell of 3d customers.

I don't think DirecTV is intentionally trying to make this difficult. They are a content distributor first, and a hardware provider only by necessity. As I mentioned in my previous post, I think DirecTV (or whoever they may sub these kinds of details out to) simply applied the HDMI spec by the letter. They don't have the experience as a hardware designer to know that HDMI needs a few "tweaks" to make it more customer friendly. As long as they have the interest, this should all be easily worked out. Us early "guinea pigs" just have to be a little patient.

What I do find _immensely _frustrating is the knee jerk reaction some here have with respect to anything they consider to be a negative implication towards DirecTV. It's as if some just immediately go into "self defense" mode without even really understanding the stance they are trying to take. I don't know why this becomes such a personal issue for some, but I find myself becoming equally irrational, and end up perceiving the attitudes of some individuals as mirroring the attitude of DirecTV.

Regardless, hopefully this is something that can easily be worked out so everyone is happy in the end. My adapter is due to be delivered on Friday, so hopefully this weekend I can do some tests and provide my own data points in the other thread.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

I hope I am not further confusing this issue but I thought I read in the AVS forum that the Gifen device was suspected of causing the audio issues. FWIW when I bypass the AVR using the optical audio connection from DVR to AVR I get 5.1 audio when viewing a 3D channel...

I'm wondering what you would get if you moved the converter and gifen device to the other side of the AVR in front of the TV and bypass the AVR for video using the optical audio from DRV to AVR. Would you then get 5.1 audio? I realize you are trying to get this set up to near normal with all devices using HDMI to AVR and one HDMI to TV but some changes in your set up might help to give more insight on what is causing this....


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

My HR24-500 rebooted on its on. So far I have been unable to reestablish the 3D signal. I wonder if Directv changed its broadcasting code again. The 3D channels are not greyed out but just will not play. My 3D recordings also will not play. I get a this TV is not 3D capable message. Anyone else having problems?


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

geaux tigers said:


> My HR24-500 rebooted on its on. So far I have been unable to reestablish the 3D signal. I wonder if Directv changed its broadcasting code again. The 3D channels are not greyed out but just will not play. My 3D recordings also will not play. I get a this TV is not 3D capable message. Anyone else having problems?


It took several trys turning the DVR on and off but I did get channel 103 to work. Note that my DVR has not reset this morning....


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

Updated information on the 2010 Mits xx838 series 3D(ready)TVs. This is from the specification fine print and also stated in their 3D Info page. It seems they are no longer planning a firmware update to make these sets fully 3D capable??

Mitsubishi 3DTVs (738 and 838 series) currently support the side-by-side 3D signal format. For support of other 3D formats, such as top-bottom and frame packing (3D Blu Ray standard), Mitsubishi 3DTVs will require the use of a 3D source device that outputs the 3D checkerboard format or a 3D source device coupled with the Mitsubishi 3D adapter. In all cases an emitter and matching 3D active shutter glasses or DLP Link active shutter glasses are required in order to view 3D content. Please refer to our web site www.mitsubsihi-tv.com for the most current information.

Gosh I would swear they used to mention a planned firmware update for the other 3D formats!!!!!!!


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

raclevel said:


> It took several trys turning the DVR on and off but I did get channel 103 to work. Note that my DVR has not reset this morning....


Could you describe specifically what you did. Did you turn it on or off or did you reboot it. As much detail as you can share would be appreciated.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

geaux tigers said:


> Could you describe specifically what you did. Did you turn it on or off or did you reboot it. As much detail as you can share would be appreciated.


I have always had some problems getting the video to display on my WD 73833 when switching form 2D channels to 3D Channels and back again. I recently discovered that if I changed the TV mode to 3D while still watching a 2D channel then switch to the 3D channel to video would display after a moment of dark screen. In the past I would have to turn the DVR off then back on to get the TV to sense the video signal. Note that my set up bypasses the AVR except using optical for audio...I have the HR22-100 model DVR...

But after your note I went to check it and had to cycle the DVR off and on several times before getting the video to display. I *did not *get the message that my tv or receiver were not 3D capable as you did but just had an extra hard time to get the video to display.

Are the lights on the Mits adaptor showing Power on and 3D mode? It almost sounds like the Gifen device might be causing the adaptor to not function....


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

Doug Brott said:


> What I do know is that consistent & reliable experience is going to be more likely with DIRECTV than any kind of kludge. It is also possible that there are defects in the current software that need to be corrected because DIRECTV is doing something different than they think they are doing. This is where specific hardware and additional information can be useful.


I have been following this and several other threads on various forums and I would like to make a suggestion:

I think Doug has made an excellent and critical point when he mentions various types of Kludge set ups and the absolute requirement for DirectTV to provide a consistent and reliable experience.. If we are to be successful in getting DirectTV to make any kind of fix to accommodate the HDMI 1.3 AVRs we need to agree on what set up we are trying to fix.

The ideal classic set up would be to have the 3D sources (DTV DVR, Blu-ray 3D players, etc) connected to an HDMI 1.4a AVR then on to a the fully functional 3DTV.

Unfortunately a very large number of customers happen to have older 3D ready TVs with HDMI 1.3 AVRs. I think our best chances of success would be to stay with the classic set up which is the 3D souce devices (DTV DVR, 3D Blu-ray player etc) connected to the HDMI 1.3 AVR then to the Mits converter in front of the 3D ready TV.. (and in the case of the Samsung 3D ready DLP owners put the Gifen HDMI spoofer between the TV and the Mits converter).

This seems to me to be the basic set up scenario this post started with and we were asking DTV to provide a way to ignore the 3D equipment check to allow the 3D signal to pass through our HDMI 1.3 AVRs to devices we knew to be 3D ready..

If we could stick to this one basic connection scenario and could convince DTV it was in their best interest to provide a 3D device or 3D function check bypass then most of the other issues like pcm audio etc would also be resolved..

As it is now we are asking DTV to fix individual set up issues which may or may not be associated with their equipment and it is way to much to expect them to understand much less to address each of our individual problems.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

Regardless of anything else, DIRECTV will ONLY be supporting side-by-side format for 3D. So any older 3D TVs that don's support side-by-side will definitely have a problem.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Doug Brott said:


> Regardless of anything else, DIRECTV will ONLY be supporting side-by-side format for 3D.


No 720p top-and-bottom 3D format?


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

raclevel said:


> If we are to be successful in getting DirectTV to make any kind of fix to accommodate the HDMI 1.3 AVRs we need to agree on what set up we are trying to fix.


Personally, I think optimizing for a specific setup is exactly what has put us in the position we are in. The reality is, everyone's situation is unique, and people shouldn't be expected to go out and buy new (sometimes very expensive) hardware, or compromise certain functionality that THEY want that may not be possible with the "standard" setup. It is perfectly understandable for DirecTV to want to only _support _specific setups. They can't be expected to understand and provie technical support for every unique configuration that may exist. I think all most of us are asking is that they don't "lock out" setups that don't fall into their definition of a standard configuration. Support one (or two, or whatever) standard setups, but allow some kind of back door to enable 3d output, with the understanding that your layout is not a "supported" configuration. We'll give you a 3d signal (and whatever number of channels of audio you're asking for), but if you can't get it to work in your system, that's your problem. If they only want to support a direct connection to a specific list of TVs, that's fine by me as long as I can still enable the output to pass through my 1.3 AVR. If that doesn't work, but the signal is being sent, then that's not DirecTV's problem. It's mine to figure out.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

DarinC said:


> I think all most of us are asking is that they don't "lock out" setups that don't fall into their definition of a standard configuration. Support one (or two, or whatever) standard setups, but allow some kind of back door to enable 3d output, with the understanding that your layout is not a "supported" configuration. We'll give you a 3d signal (and whatever number of channels of audio you're asking for), but if you can't get it to work in your system, that's your problem. If they only want to support a direct connection to a specific list of TVs, that's fine by me as long as I can still enable the output to pass through my 1.3 AVR. If that doesn't work, but the signal is being sent, then that's not DirecTV's problem. It's mine to figure out.


I agree with most of what you are saying here. But I think we sometimes get off the main goal by introducing too many configurations (Kludges). We should focus on the one goal which is to be provided a way to bypass the 3D equipment check to allow the 3D signal to pass through the HDMI 1.3 AVRs..


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

DarinC said:


> ... allow some kind of back door to enable 3d output ...


Yes, except the "back door" part of this is the kludge. That is least likely to fly. There is already a front-door-style provision for recording a 3D program, even when there is no 3D TV connected: there is a warning screen telling you that you may not be able to view the program you've asked to record, then you're asked if you want to do it anyway. If you say yes, the program is recorded. Why not do this for watching a 3D program, also, at least for the case where the output device(s) can show 1080i side-by-side format in 3D but can't necessarily switch automatically to that format? Just warn people that they may need to use their TV controls to select a 3D format.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

GregLee said:


> Yes, except the "back door" part of this is the kludge. That is least likely to fly. There is already a front-door-style provision for recording a 3D program, even when there is no 3D TV connected: there is a warning screen telling you that you may not be able to view the program you've asked to record, then you're asked if you want to do it anyway. If you say yes, the program is recorded. Why not do this for watching a 3D program, also, at least for the case where the output device(s) can show 1080i side-by-side format in 3D but can't necessarily switch automatically to that format? Just warn people that they may need to use their TV controls to select a 3D format.


This solution works for me!!!!


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## DarinC (Aug 31, 2004)

GregLee said:


> Yes, except the "back door" part of this is the kludge.


I didn't necessarily mean a back door as in a hidden secret code, but just a workaround where the customer is somehow indicating that they want that output mode even though the DVR doesn't _think _the hardware can handle it. FWIW, the existing resolution output selection is big of a "kludge" in that if DirecTV truly wanted to do everything by the HDMI book, we wouldn't be able to select any resolutions that weren't indicated by EDID info that the display can handle. But apparently DirecTV recognized the HDMI weaknesses in _this _case, and allows a way for us to manually select and confirm output resolutions based on our choice, rather than what the EDID info says.

As I've said before, I don't care WHAT the workaround is, just as long as there is one.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

DarinC said:


> I didn't necessarily mean a back door as in a hidden secret code, but just a workaround where the customer is somehow indicating that they want that output mode even though the DVR doesn't _think _the hardware can handle it. FWIW, the existing resolution output selection is big of a "kludge" in that if DirecTV truly wanted to do everything by the HDMI book, we wouldn't be able to select any resolutions that weren't indicated by EDID info that the display can handle. But apparently DirecTV recognized the HDMI weaknesses in _this _case, and allows a way for us to manually select and confirm output resolutions based on our choice, rather than what the EDID info says.
> 
> As I've said before, I don't care WHAT the workaround is, just as long as there is one.


I don't care if I come through the front door or the back door as long as they let me in the house. I also realize that Directv is only going to support the side by side 3D format only I understand that. However, currently there is the 3DA-1 which DirecTv officially supports that allows legacy 3D ready DLP HDTVs to enjoy the 3D broadcasts of DirecTv.

I am not asking for official support as I receive most of my support from DBStalk.com as I am sure most of the rest of you do as well. There are already things that DirecTv users enjoy that DirecTv does not officially support (eSata, MRV via cat5e or cat6, etc.). The great thing about all of these things is that DirecTv customers are able to enjoy expanded non officially supported features and no one is adversely impacted. An EDID work around would fall into the same category.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> I know very little here .. I'm doing what I can to help believe it or not. So far there hasn't been an upswell of people with complaints, but there are a few folks that are having issues.


The thing is that, for most of these problems, there are imperfect work-arounds. In my case, because I had the different inputs of my Mitsubishi calibrated, I made the decision to use HDMI for video and Digital Coax for audio from DirecTV a long time ago. So, I'm not currently experiencing the issues others, with similar equipment (Onkyo 805 receiver, Mitsubishi 82837 TV) are. But, if circumstances were to change, I would certainly want to have the option of connecting my DirecTV receiver through my Onkyo Receiver and be able to watch 3D content with Dolby 5.1 sound.

I've had no reason to post about problems that I'm having because A) the options that I'm currently using don't exhibit the problems and B) because, IMO, Darin and geaux tigers are doing a really good job of describing the issues and proposing possible solutions. IMO, just replying "me too" or "I agree" isn't particularly productive.


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## raclevel (Aug 3, 2010)

This is interesting, a response from MDEA explaining a little bit of how their adaptor is designed to couple with the TV and how the HDMI 1.3 AVR is providing its own EDID to the DVR. This came from a recent post on the AVS forum...

Quote from MDEA:
Our adapter is not an independent HDMI repeating device; it designed specifically to match to our TVs and becomes “one device” with the TV. It is specifically an upgrade device for the matching TVs. The TV/Adapter combination sends a single EDID.


An AV Receiver is not a simple HDMI switch or pass through device, it is a repeater that has video processing. Because of this it has its own EDID.


When a source device (Blu-ray player, Cable Box, Satellite Receiver, etc.) is connected to the AV Receiver, the source device receives the AV Receiver’s EDID analyzes the list of supported features, video formats, audio formats etc. and normally blocks everything that is not common between the AV Receiver and that source device – for instance, if the AV Receiver does not support DTS Audio in 7.1 lossless format and the Blu-ray player can support this, the Blu-ray player will still block this type of audio because the AV Receiver does not support. This is also true of 3D signals, if the AV Receiver does not support 3D, the Blu-ray player will block this type of signal. End Quote


So if we try to use a Gifen spoofer between the DVR and AVR it should be programmed with an EDID from a 3D capable AVR which has similar functionality as our existing non 3D ready AVR. I suppose the EDID information might be dynamic to reflect how we have the AVR programmed??? The solution mentioned by GregLee is sounding better all the time...


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

raclevel said:


> This is interesting, a response from MDEA explaining a little bit of how their adaptor is designed to couple with the TV and how the HDMI 1.3 AVR is providing its own EDID to the DVR. This came from a recent post on the AVS forum...
> 
> Quote from MDEA:
> Our adapter is not an independent HDMI repeating device; it designed specifically to match to our TVs and becomes "one device" with the TV. It is specifically an upgrade device for the matching TVs. The TV/Adapter combination sends a single EDID.
> ...


An EDID work around that could be controlled by the DirecTv customer from the menu is sounding better by the minute to me.


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## ljg1118 (Aug 23, 2006)

I have a 3D front projector that does all consumer 3D formats plus plus, however because it is not listed amoung those TV's supported by Directv I now have to jump through hoops to try and watch 3D content I have paid Directv to view, this is total BS and Directv may loose a subscriber from 1990 for this reason alone.

Cablevision does not have this requirement so I may walk


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

ljg1118 said:


> I have a 3D front projector that does all consumer 3D formats plus plus, however because it is not listed amoung those TV's supported by Directv I now have to jump through hoops to try and watch 3D content I have paid Directv to view, this is total BS and Directv may loose a subscriber from 1990 for this reason alone.
> 
> Cablevision does not have this requirement so I may walk


I am sorry to hear about your frustrations. Please post what hardware you are using and as many details as possible here:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=182213

According to the moderators here, DirecTv is concerned and trying to make things better but needs to know what is not working. Personally, I believe the best solution is to give the user more control over things such as enabling 3D. I am afraid that if they continue along this path then they will lose loyal customers such as yourself. Myself and others have been stating this for a while but at times I feel like we are shouting into the wind.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

ljg1118 said:


> I have a 3D front projector that does all consumer 3D formats plus plus, however because it is not listed amoung those TV's supported by Directv I now have to jump through hoops to try and watch 3D content I have paid Directv to view, this is total BS and Directv may loose a subscriber from 1990 for this reason alone.
> 
> Cablevision does not have this requirement so I may walk


Any updates on your situation?


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

ljg1118 said:


> I have a 3D front projector that does all consumer 3D formats plus plus, however because it is not listed amoung those TV's supported by Directv I now have to jump through hoops to try and watch 3D content I have paid Directv to view, this is total BS and Directv may loose a subscriber from 1990 for this reason alone.
> 
> Cablevision does not have this requirement so I may walk


What providers have EDID requirements and which ones don't?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> What providers have EDID requirements and which ones don't?


DirecTV is the only provider I'm aware of that has these ridiculous restrictions.


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## JackBarry (Aug 25, 2010)

If Direct TV wants truly to be a leader in the implementation of 3D TV, a new 3D Receiver should be offered that has 2 HDMI outputs like the new Panasonic Blu-ray Player. This would eliminate many if not all of the problems extensively covered in this forum. In addition it would allow all of their customers that do not have 1.4a AV Receivers to continue to uses their audio home theater systems and watch 3D content.

One HDMI output carrying the video direct to the TV and one HDMI output carrying the audio to the AV Receiver.


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## Hoosier205 (Sep 3, 2007)

There is no need to impose HDMI 1.4 restrictions anyway.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

JackBarry said:


> If Direct TV wants truly to be a leader in the implementation of 3D TV, a new 3D Receiver should be offered that has 2 HDMI outputs like the new Panasonic Blu-ray Player.


Supplying their customers with millions of new satellite receivers is obviously not a feasible solution. But providing a manual method of setting the receivers to send side-by-side 3D output would work and should be easy. Apparently DirecTV is not going to do that, though.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> DirecTV is the only provider I'm aware of that has these ridiculous restrictions.


If only one is enforcing a standard then the standard is not the standard.

Confucius also states that "Man who stands on toilet is high on pot".


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> If only one is enforcing a standard then the standard is not the standard.


There is no standard. DirecTV is simply trying to minimize customer service calls.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> There is no standard. DirecTV is simply trying to minimize customer service calls.


Frustrating the customer with cumbersome EDID restrictions I believe will result in more customer service calls.


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