# Can the HR20 OTA Tuner Be Improved Through Software Upgrades?



## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

The HR20 is a great machine in many regards. However, the OTA tuner is very weak in my opinion based upon using other OTA tuners on other equipment using the same antenna setup. Can the HR20 tuner be improved through software updates or is this a hardware issue? Additionally, is there a diffrence in the tuning ability between the HR20-700 and the HR20-100. I am looking forward to some lively discussion regarding this issue.


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## jasonbrent (May 25, 2007)

OTA tuner works great for me with a big CM and pre-amp.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

For some time Earl had relayed to us that the hardware could not receive Low VHF, channels 2-6. 

Then one day, it could.

So what else could they do in software with the HR20's OTA tuners?

I don't know.

There is a fundemental problem with the HR20 using what appears to be a passive internal splitter between the two tuners. It seems it causes the 3 dB loss that you would expect when compared to boxes like the H20 that do not split the signal.

I bet that there is more that could be done.

- Craig


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> For some time Earl had relayed to us that the hardware could not receive Low VHF, channels 2-6.


When did I ever state it was definitively hardware?

I know a lot of people theorized that it was hardware, but *I* don't recall ever stating it was hardware..


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

As to the OP's question.

While I am certain there are probably some minor things that can be improved via software... in general the hardware is what the hardware is.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

I just got a HR20-100S installed yesterday and my opinion is that it's OTA tuners are better than my HR10's were. Just my $.02.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

Indy - They're a LOT better than the HR10.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Indy - They're a LOT better than the HR10.


That's a relief. Hopefully it will pull in the HD locals that I don't get from D* without a problem.


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## cb7214 (Jan 25, 2007)

it stinks in my opinion, when i hook it up to my Samsung plasma vs the HR20 its like night and day it drives me crazy, and the funny thing is i have bought several versions of amplified antennas and my old non amplified antenna works better then the amplified


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

wilbur_the_goose said:


> Indy - They're a LOT better than the HR10.


I just upgraded to HR20 over the weekend and have not hooked up OTA, which I will do tonight. How is it a "LOT better" than the HR10? Just curious...


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## ciscokidd979 (Aug 21, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> I just upgraded to HR20 over the weekend and have not hooked up OTA, which I will do tonight. How is it a "LOT better" than the HR10? Just curious...


In OKC...I think they are about the same...KOCO-DT 5 still has issues...


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## codewiz (May 23, 2007)

sshams95 said:


> I just upgraded to HR20 over the weekend and have not hooked up OTA, which I will do tonight. How is it a "LOT better" than the HR10? Just curious...


For me, I went from 60-70's on the HR10 to 80-90's on the HR20.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

How would we know if the HR20's OTA (ATSC) tuners can be improved unless we designed the HR20s? I would hope the ATSC tuners can be improved, but the avg person probably has no idea if this can be fixed through software or not. In other words, I don't think the question is subjective.


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## CHDinCT (Dec 23, 2006)

I voted yes based on the fact that my OTA performance deteriorated with the 15c upgrade a few weeks back. Though the poor performance - audio and video drop outs every few minutes - was on playback of a recorded show, so maybe the dvr software was to blame. Nary an issue with the H20 that it replaced.


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## cavihitts (Mar 11, 2007)

Don't know if it can be inmproved a lot through software. I'm a big fan of the hr20 and both of mine have never given me any problems but I do have to say the Sony tv does a better job with the OTA.


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## sshams95 (Sep 2, 2006)

I kept my HR10 as well...so I'm gonna spot check the signal strength on my HR10, then hook up the HR20 and compare the signal strength. I live 40 miles out of Chicago so I have the large multidirectional OTA antennas, so I get CBS-Chicago which is on a VHF band. I have no problems getting it on my HR10. I'll test it out tonight and report results tomorrow if anyone is interested.


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## Indiana627 (Nov 18, 2005)

sshams95 said:


> I just upgraded to HR20 over the weekend and have not hooked up OTA, which I will do tonight. How is it a "LOT better" than the HR10? Just curious...


For me, my NBC channel was in the 40s on the HR10 and also breaking up. Hooked up HR20-100 to same antenna with same wire and now it comes in much better. Signal is still lower than my other OTAs, but breakups are much less frequent. But fortunately for me, I know get my local NBC in HD via sat.

Also, somewhere I read the signal meters on the HR10 vs the HR20 aren't a direct correlation, meaning a 40 on the HR10 and a 40 on the HR20 don't mean the same thing. Not sure of the reason behind that, but just because your numbers on the HR20 are vastly higher doesn't necessarily mean the HR20 tuners are that much better. Signal strength of 10 or 90 - I don't care as long as the channel doesn't break up.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> I kept my HR10 as well...so I'm gonna spot check the signal strength on my HR10, then hook up the HR20 and compare the signal strength. I live 40 miles out of Chicago so I have the large multidirectional OTA antennas, so I get CBS-Chicago which is on a VHF band. I have no problems getting it on my HR10. I'll test it out tonight and report results tomorrow if anyone is interested.


A couple of my two cents:
Large antennas usually mean directional [so unless you have more than one it's not "multi"].
Signal strength readings on the HR-20, aren't, but it does show "bit error rate" [not RF power].


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> Signal strength readings on the HR-20, aren't, but it does show "bit error rate" [not RF power].


It's a bit over my head, but for those who are interested, it looks like there's a good explanation of how bit error rate is measured and calculated about halfway down this page: http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Nov03/HDTV_files/HDTV.htm /s


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Steve said:


> It's a bit over my head, but for those who are interested, it looks like there's a good explanation of how bit error rate is measured and calculated about halfway down this page: http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Nov03/HDTV_files/HDTV.htm /s


If you can understand that, you wouldn't be asking questions here, but would be answering them..:lol:


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

n3ntj said:


> How would we know if the HR20's OTA (ATSC) tuners can be improved unless we designed the HR20s? I would hope the ATSC tuners can be improved, but the avg person probably has no idea if this can be fixed through software or not. In other words, I don't think the question is subjective.


Thank you....I was waiting for someone to state the obvious.

The question should have been:

Does the OTA tuner in the HR20 still need improvement?

Asking if it should be done in software, as you noted, requires knowledge that I doubt ANYONE in the entire forum has. Silly!

Let's give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he meant does the tuner need improvement. Until he does, I ain't voting.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hasan said:


> Thank you....I was waiting for someone to state the obvious.
> 
> Asking if it should be done in software, as you noted, requires knowledge that I doubt ANYONE in the entire forum has. Silly!
> 
> Let's give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that he meant does the tuner need improvement. Until he does, I ain't voting.


I picked "not sure".


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I am sure that the question could of been stated in a better manner. However, my reason for the poll was to stimulate discussion which the poll has done to a limited degree. I voted not sure as I do not know the answer to the question that I posed. However, I do know that there are several individuals on this forum who have taken their HR-20 apart and claim to have knowlege concerning the individual components of the HR20. Furthermore, I have seen a few people on this forum who claim to have knowledge regarding software programing for hardware. Therefore, I am hopefull that some members of this forum may be able to answer the question with some personal knowledge. 

I believe the HR-20 tuner does need further improvement. Therefore, the question is whether or not it can still be improved.

If someone has both an HR20-700 and HR20-100 then they should be able to tell us if there is a diffrence between their OTA reception or their signal strength meters on the machines.

I hope the question posed continues to generate debate and if anyone has any insight to the question then I hope they will post a reply. Furthermore, if you believe that the HR-20's OTA tuner is inferior when compared to other devices then this would be a good place to express your concerns to DirecTv.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I am sure that the question could of been stated in a better manner. However, my reason for the poll was to stimulate discussion which the poll has done to a limited degree. I voted not sure as I do not know the answer to the question that I posed. However, I do know that there are several individuals on this forum who have taken their HR-20 apart and claim to have knowlege concerning the individual components of the HR20. Furthermore, I have seen a few people on this forum who claim to have knowledge regarding software programing for hardware. Therefore, I am hopefull that some members of this forum may be able to answer the question with some personal knowledge.
> 
> I believe the HR-20 tuner does need further improvement. Therefore, the question is whether or not it can still be improved.
> 
> ...


I don't think you'll find the answers your looking for. The OTA tuners are sealed within the HR-20, so even if someone removes the covers to look inside, they won't see the OTA tuner parts.
What seems to have become "common" knowledge is the HR-20 uses the LG third gen ATSC tuner chip and not the fifth gen chip(s).
This is the very difference between the H20 -100 & -600. The -600 is made by LG and does use the fifth gen chip(s).
I personally doubt software can makeup for the difference.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I am sure that the question could of been stated in a better manner. However, my reason for the poll was to stimulate discussion which the poll has done to a limited degree. I voted not sure as I do not know the answer to the question that I posed. However, I do know that there are several individuals on this forum who have taken their HR-20 apart and claim to have knowlege concerning the individual components of the HR20. Furthermore, I have seen a few people on this forum who claim to have knowledge regarding software programing for hardware. Therefore, I am hopefull that some members of this forum may be able to answer the question with some personal knowledge.
> 
> I believe the HR-20 tuner does need further improvement. Therefore, the question is whether or not it can still be improved.
> 
> .


The problem is with the question. No one here knows (unless they are an RF AND Digital engineer AND work with the specific chips in the HR20 (and most likely) are a member of the HR-20 OTA design team. We don't know whether or not it can still be improved....it is PURE SPECULATION.

What we do know is whether we THINK IT SHOULD BE IMPROVED. That is a valid question and a perfectly reasonable concern.

I think the tuner is WAY TOO PICKY. It appears to be very sensitive to multi-path, and it definitely has poor dynamic range. It is sensitive to impedance bumps. These are FACTS, not opinions, they can and have been measured.

Can these be fixed in software? No one here knows. (unless the meet the criteria I listed above)

Can these be fixed with some sort of hardware kludge? No one here knows. (ditto)

The issue is not whether the tuner(s) CAN be fixed...we need D* to tell us this. They made it "broken"...it's their job to fix it, and only they have the right design info to do so.

The issue is and always has been: Does it need fixing?

It is my opinion that it does. How and if that is done, will be "most interesting".

I will note, if you look at my prior posts about the HR20 and OTA, you will find how you, yourself with some effort can get the tuner in the HR20 to perform nearly as well as the tuners in most HDTVs. It is a LOT of work, but can be done in most cases....and I had no need for either a soldering iron or a modification of the code in the HR20, nor did I have to open the case.

Should you have to go through this much trouble for good tuner performance? Absolutely not.

If you really want the most (and need the most) out of the HR-20 OTA tuners, look up my posts ...they are very detailed, explaining exactly what to do and how to do it. It's a pain in the rear...but for me, it has been worth it.

(and it still won't cure the missing channels problem, as the incredibly short-sighted implementation of OTA on the HR20 makes it a slave to the Guide data, which is NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate, resulting in missing channels, mis-mapped channels, great guide info for the wrong channel, etc.) This can be fixed with "good info from D*, we can answer the question: can it be fixed...you bet...but don't hold your breath based on the last six months with the EXACT same missing channels and bad guide info.

Please don't over-react to my very minor criticism of your poll....you asked an important question...just used a word that results in an impossibility of answering. Replace CAN with SHOULD and you can get an answer.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Hasan.

I am not offended by your criticism of my poll but if you are correct that only those individuals with the criteria you listed above can answer the question then I would appreciate it if they would give us some insight. I have read many posts where the poster claims to be either an insider or to know an insider. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge than me will answer the question and give us some insight. I appreciate your posts concerning improving OTA reception on the HR20 but as you stated no one should have to go through so much trouble. Clearly, the HR20 tuner needs to be improved but can it. As I stated previously, I answered not sure to my poll. If you do a poll asking if the HR20 should be improved then my answer will be yes.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

codewiz said:


> For me, I went from 60-70's on the HR10 to 80-90's on the HR20.


This is like comparing Apples to Oranges. The "signal strength" shown by each box is not calibrated. For me the HR20 does a bit better in high winds then the HR10 but otherwise I've not had a problem with either.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

> It appears to be very sensitive to multi-path, and it definitely has poor dynamic range.


I find the opposite. It functions very well in dealing with multipath. Better then my HR10 and much better then my 4 year old ATSC tuner.


> has poor dynamic range.


Could you define this please? I was aware that a tuner had "Dynamic Range" (maybe I slept that day in school ).


> mis-mapped channels


Does the box not use the PSIP to map channels? Or are you referring to the Guide not mapping the OTA channel to the PSIP defined virtual channel? I have not had a problem so am cruious which problems I am missing


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

sshams95 said:


> ... I'm gonna spot check the signal strength on my HR10, then hook up the HR20 and compare the signal strength.


Except the "signal strength" shown by each box is not calibrated. 80 on the HR10 probably does not correspond to 80 on the HR20. (In fact, from a marketing point of view the same received signal strngth should read higher on the HR20 to prove it is a better box.  ) The only way to determine if either box is better is to carefully view the same channel side-by-side and note any drop-outs, audio glitches, or other problems caused by inability to present the "bits" as transmitted to the display device.

Digital cable boxes often have a maintenance display where you are able to monitor correctable and non-correctable error counts. To bad DTV didn't include those displays iin the HR10 and HR20.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

Indiana627 said:


> Also, somewhere I read the signal meters on the HR10 vs the HR20 aren't a direct correlation, meaning a 40 on the HR10 and a 40 on the HR20 don't mean the same thing.


This is true.


> Not sure of the reason behind that,


The reason is the "signal stgrength" isn't being measured in any standard way on each box. It simply reflects what the SW designer thought 10, 20, 30, etc. should be. Most Digital TV devices are this way - not just the HR10 and HR20.

Think of 100 as meaning the tuner in the box could not do better if the signal were stronger (this can be determined by the tuner and measured for display purposes). The meaning of 100 is specific to that tuner. The meaning of the lower values is often SW dependent.

And there are many other factors which go into recovering the Digital signal besides signal strength so a reading of 100 may not result in a perfect picture.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Aug 16, 2006)

sshams95 said:


> I just upgraded to HR20 over the weekend and have not hooked up OTA, which I will do tonight. How is it a "LOT better" than the HR10? Just curious...


Easy - I get a lot more channels on my HR20 while using the exact same antenna. I'm in a tough area - 30 miles from the towers in hilly terrain. Plus, the locals favor the NJ areas at the expense of the western exurbs of Philly.

Shoot - I even get New Jersey Network PBS HD now.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Keeska said:


> I find the opposite. It functions very well in dealing with multipath. Better then my HR10 and much better then my 4 year old ATSC tuner.
> *Could you define this please*? I was aware that a tuner had "Dynamic Range" (maybe I slept that day in school ).
> Does the box not use the PSIP to map channels? Or are you referring to the Guide not mapping the OTA channel to the PSIP defined virtual channel? I have not had a problem so am cruious which problems I am missing


Dynamic range: the difference of low & high level signal capable to receive at one time.
It has been proven that the HR-20 does not pick up low level signals & also can have problems with high level signals. this shows a decreased dynamic range as compared to other ATSC tuners.
It also has proven to not reject multi-path signals as well as other ATSC tuners.
The display for signal strength is not a RF power level of any type, but a bit error rate.
Multi-path signals will show up as bouncing in the signal level screen.
Of the six different ATSC tuners I have, the HR-20 ranks at the bottom when compared to others and connected to the same source.
Another weak point with the HR-20 is the fact it doesn't scan for channels, but relies of the D* database to "know" what frequency to tune to, causing errors in "mapping" channels and lack of receiving channels that are present.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Keeska said:


> I find the opposite. It functions very well in dealing with multipath. Better then my HR10 and much better then my 4 year old ATSC tuner.
> Could you define this please? I was aware that a tuner had "Dynamic Range" (maybe I slept that day in school ).
> Does the box not use the PSIP to map channels? Or are you referring to the Guide not mapping the OTA channel to the PSIP defined virtual channel? I have not had a problem so am cruious which problems I am missing


1. I'm not comparing the HR20 to 4 year old technology, I'm comparing it to no more than 14 months.

2. Dynamic Range is the ability of the front end of the tuner (the first RF input stage and then the mixer) to respond without significant distortion to very weak and then very strong signals. In other words, what is the "range" from 'weakest' to 'strongest' that the HR20 can handle without pixellation (as a symptom of the front end or first mixer caving in). The term "tuner" refers to the OTA reception function of the Sat receiver. Surely we aren't parsing RF Amp vs Tuner (frequency selective components) vs Mixer, are we? Every receiver has an RF Amp then Selectivity circuits, then Mixer circuits, then IF amplifier circuit(s), etc. When the HR20 is presented with very weak and very strong signals, the range from the weakest to the strongest (properly handled) is defined as dynamic range. The HR20 does not have wide dynamic range.

3. The HR20 is Guide Centric...if it ain't in the guide, you aren't going to get it. I (along with MANY, MANY others) have listed and listed and listed and listed our missing channels. There is a thread specifically LISTING each person's missing channels. It was created to help D* fix the problem(s). I'm sorry, I'm not listing them again.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Hasan.
> 
> I am not offended by your criticism of my poll but if you are correct that only those individuals with the criteria you listed above can answer the question then I would appreciate it if they would give us some insight. I have read many posts where the poster claims to be either an insider or to know an insider. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge than me will answer the question and give us some insight. I appreciate your posts concerning improving OTA reception on the HR20 but as you stated no one should have to go through so much trouble. Clearly, the HR20 tuner needs to be improved but can it. As I stated previously, I answered not sure to my poll. If you do a poll asking if the HR20 should be improved then my answer will be yes.


I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for insiders insight into the tuner problems in the HR20.

I won't be doing any poll asking the obvious (from the hundreds of posts about the "picky" nature of the HR20 tuner). It is well established that the tuner in the HR20 isn't exactly "great".

Maybe your post and the subsequent discussion will catch D*'s attention. I hope so. In the mean time, all I can do is help the people who are having problems by giving them information on what to do if they want the HR20 to work as well as it possibly can (and this does start to approach pretty closely a well designed modern HDTV tuner).

99 % of HR20 users have no idea what to do about the problems with the HR20 tuner. Of those that do know what to do, they have no idea how to do it.

There are multiple variables to deal with, and they interact.

Many, if not most of the problems with the HR20 OTA tuner could have been prevented by using the 5th gen chips (and implementing them properly). That isn't the case, so now we have two avenues:

1. Nag D*

2. Optimize the HR20 ourselves.

These choices are not mutually exclusive, as many of us have discovered.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Hasan,

Could you post a link to your suggestions on how to optimize the reliability of the HR20 OTA tuner? One of the purpose of this poll and this forum is to get DirecTv's attention regarding our concerns. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around then how loud is it? I will not be holding my breath but I will remain cautiously optimistic until I hear from someone with knowledge that this quest is futile. We are all here to help each other.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Not all hardware limitations can be over come with software.


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## Hoxxx (Jun 19, 2004)

%


geaux tigers said:


> The HR20 is a great machine in many regards. However, the OTA tuner is very weak in my opinion based upon using other OTA tuners on other eq
> 
> All my local's are at least 95% most at or above 100%. I am 35 miles from the towers.
> My antenna is in the attic.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Hoxxx,

I am glad to hear that but you are one of the lucky ones. I see that you are from AZ. How is the landscape there. I only ask because if the landscape is flat then your signal would probably be better than other areas of the country. I am glad you have a very strong signal and only wish I could say the same.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Hasan,
> 
> Could you post a link to your suggestions on how to optimize the reliability of the HR20 OTA tuner? One of the purpose of this poll and this forum is to get DirecTv's attention regarding our concerns. If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around then how loud is it? I will not be holding my breath but I will remain cautiously optimistic until I hear from someone with knowledge that this quest is futile. We are all here to help each other.


I'm certainly not saying the quest is hopeless, just get yourself a big supply of patience, as only a few of the OTA problems have been treated as a priority with this box. Those that have, got solved (Low VHF, for example). Depending on which generation tuner chip(s) they used, they may or may not be able to make things any better on their end. If they can't, or if they simply won't devote the time and energy to it, then you have to do the things I've suggested in the past.

Anyone is free to search the archives for my OTA posts and filter through them to find the one(s) that give specific detail. To tell you the truth, I don't have it in me to do so any longer. As soon as I think the words D* and OTA, my teeth start to hurt. I'll help those in need, but I'm done submitting OTA suggestions (for OTA problems more than 6 months old) to D*. I've given D* all the info they need to work the problem, and I've done so repeatedly, so now I'm working (on this specific issue) with end users only and D* can read what they like of what I post.

Of course, I'll continue in the CE process and help both D* and users as much as I can, but on the specific issue of outstanding OTA issues, I'm done until I see D* tell us that they have worked on the problems and would like us to test out specific fixes.

Don't take my sharp criticism of OTA performance/issues/etc on the HR20 as bad feelings towards either D* or the HR20. I like my HR20 a LOT. I've had excellent service from D*, including replacing a lightning damaged HR20 very quickly. I get great OTA-HD recordings from my HR20 and I'm lucky that I get all Major networks. The new color scheme and layout in the latest CE is OUTSTANDING!

I rate the HR20 a strong B+ at this point. I rate the OVERALL OTA experience a D or at best a C-, because of missing channels, inability to scan channels and pickiness of the tuner. One can make the tuner a strong B+, with enough effort, but I'm sure not going to change my rating of the tuner based on what one has to go through to get the most of it.


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## KCCardsfan (Apr 18, 2007)

CHDinCT said:


> I voted yes based on the fact that my OTA performance deteriorated with the 15c upgrade a few weeks back. Though the poor performance - audio and video drop outs every few minutes - was on playback of a recorded show, so maybe the dvr software was to blame. Nary an issue with the H20 that it replaced.


I too saw a difference after 15c, I have two (out of 17) channels that were in the high 80's before 15c and they are now in the low 60's. I know it's in the HR20 because the signal level on my TV has not changed & I swapped the coax between the two.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

CHDinCT and KCCardsfan,

Thanks for the insight. Hopefully based upon your observations the HR20 OTA Tuner can be improved through software upgrades. If you can make something worse it only reasons that you can make something better.


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## pdawg17 (Jul 17, 2006)

For me, the HR20 is better than the HR10 in pulling in channels but worse with multipath...with my NBC 11-1 the HR10 was fairly weak but would stay high enough to pull in the channel...with the HR20, the signal strength is in the 90s but the multipath makes it lose all signal completely from 11-1 and the only way to fix it is to do a reboot of the box...then several days later it loses it again...


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

The HR-20 may be better in some regards than the HR10-250's OTA tuner except in the area of multipath. However, most other electronics (Tv's, receivers, etc.) have better OTA tuners than the HR20's tuner. Stating that the HR20 has a better tuner than the HR10-250 is like stating the snail is faster than the garden slug. The fact is that neither one is going to break any land speed records anytime soon.

The HR20's tuner needs to be improved but can it?


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Dynamic range: the difference of low & high level signal capable to receive at one time.


Sensitivity is the word used to describe the ability to receive low level signals.


> It has been proven that the HR-20 does not pick up low level signals


Maybe you have proven it to yourself but I find this not to be true. The sensitivity of the HR20 is better then the HR10 in side by side comparisons I have done and in comparisions I have observed. For you it may be less sensitive but not for others. Please do not make over-reaching statements.


> It also has proven to not reject multi-path signals as well as other ATSC tuners.


For you perhaps. As you probably know, multipath is the biggest problem when receiving ATSC OTA. This is a result of the design choosen by the FCC. The technology to reject multipath interference when receiving/processing ATSC has taken great leaps in the past year. I just finished a multiplath test with the HR20, HR10, a couple of SONY TVs and a couple of stand alone ATSC tuners. Due to the nature of multipath the results vary depending on which channel is being tuned but the HR20 is among the best at rejecting multipath interference. The best was a stand alone ATSC tuner using the latest multipath rejection technology. The HR20 was consistently 2nd or 3rd. So it is pretty good but not state of the art.


> Multi-path signals will show up as bouncing in the signal level screen.


As will other problems. Multipath is not the only cause of the bouncing signal strength.


> Of the six different ATSC tuners I have, the HR-20 ranks at the bottom when compared to others and connected to the same source.


We obviously have far different experiences.


> Another weak point with the HR-20 is the fact it doesn't scan for channels, but relies of the D* database to "know" what frequency to tune to, causing errors in "mapping" channels and lack of receiving channels that are present.


This is obviously a major design flaw. So far I have been luck and all of the local channels are in the guide.


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## Radio Enginerd (Oct 5, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> The HR20 is a great machine in many regards. However, the OTA tuner is very weak in my opinion based upon using other OTA tuners on other equipment using the same antenna setup. Can the HR20 tuner be improved through software updates or is this a hardware issue? Additionally, is there a diffrence in the tuning ability between the HR20-700 and the HR20-100. I am looking forward to some lively discussion regarding this issue.


As an Enginerd, I can say confidently that the OTA tuner(s) will probably always have an issue with multipath.

They can make changes to SW to increase or decrease sensitivity I suppose but hardware is hardware and will be the limiting factor.

I don't have a problem with it although I know many do.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Keeska said:


> Sensitivity is the word used to describe the ability to receive low level signals.
> 
> We obviously have far different experiences.
> This is obviously a major design flaw. So far I have been luck and all of the local channels are in the guide.


You can talk about sensitivity all you like, but sensitivity is NOT dynamic range. Sensitivity is ONE COMPONENT of the dynamic range equation.

Dynamic Range in dBm = Blocking Level (in dBm - Receiver Sensitivity (in dBm))

So, if the receiver has a Sensitivity of - 137 dBm

and

if the receiver front end starts distorting at -95 dBm

then

The Dynamic Range is -95 dBm - (-137 dBm) = +42 dB

The issue we are discussing when we use the term "dynamic range" is the strong signal handling capability of the HR20 compared to its sensitivity. This is traditionally expressed as the difference between the WEAKEST SIGNAL that can be decoded and the STRONGEST SIGNAL that can be TOLERATED before distortion sets in.

This is called "Dynamic Range". The HR20 has poor dynamic range.

There are other measures of front end strength like Two Tone Intermodulation Distortion, Gain Compression and 3rd Order Intercept....all of which express in one form or another the ability of the front end or mixer of a receiver to deal with strong signals. Properly implemented, these are all expression of dynamic range.

Raw sensitivity is only ONE measure of a good receiver performance. It does no good to have outstanding sensitivity if the slightest increase in signal level above that raw low sensitivity causes the receiver to start distorting.

It is the "window" between the lowest signal level that can produce a viewable picture and the strongest signal that can be tolerated before pixellation starts that is being called "dynamic range".

Please stop changing the equation. All of us using the term dynamic range, knew exactly what we were talking about and you jumping in and trying to redefine a well established engineering variable to nothing more than sensitivity is misleading. (and plain wrong)


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Keeska said:


> We obviously have far different experiences.


I think Hasan has done a good job "explaining" to you.
As for our "different experiences", I will just comment that I've been testing receivers for 30 years, and while I don't know everything, I do know receiver testing & specs. FWIW


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Okay, I don't know nothing about nothing. But didn't a recent software release enable the HR20 to now receive VHF channel 2 in Chicago when it couldn't before? If that's the case, then the answer to this question is YES. The OTA tuner can be improved via software upgrades.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Okay, I don't know nothing about nothing. But didn't a recent software release enable the HR20 to now receive VHF channel 2 in Chicago when it couldn't before? If that's the case, then the answer to this question is YES. The OTA tuner can be improved via software upgrades.


Yes it did, but it could also be said that the tuner was limited by software before.
I don't know what the problem was, but it could have been the "tuning code", where did simply wasn't tuning to those frequencies. If this was the case, then it didn't improve how well the tuner performs as a RF tuner [sensitivity, compression, dynamic range, etc.], but only that it never got the correct data to work right.
It is very hard for software to make up for a hardware [chip] limitations. If on the other hand, the software is defective, then fixing it will show an improvement.


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## David Carmichael (Mar 12, 2007)

OAT - Software update fixed most of my single digit channel troubles (while not really single digit but a 2 to 9 "dash" 1(or what ever the sub channel is))

But I still have one bit of trouble....

My HR20-10S does not want to save my "OTA" settings if there is a power loss or a system reboot/reset!

I have to go through the whole 15-25 minute process of scanning the airwaves, deleting channels not received in my market area, since the spot beam of the channel listing gives all channels with in a 150 miles of my zip code. 

With the storm season going on even with a battery back up, I was with out power for longer than my battery back up would support the DVR (two hours max)..... I just wished that the software would write my setting for the "OTA" setting to the harddrive and save them.

--David


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

David Carmichael said:


> OAT - Software update fixed most of my single digit channel troubles (while not really single digit but a 2 to 9 "dash" 1(or what ever the sub channel is))
> 
> But I still have one bit of trouble....
> 
> ...


This seems strange to me as I lose power for hours, but have never needed to redo my OTA settings with my twin -700s.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

If the OTA tuner was not picking up a station before a software upgrade but the same OTA tuner then picks up the station after a software upgrade then software did improve the tuner. Am I missing something here. One poster stated that the OTA tuner had not been improved by software in this situation because the software was limiting the hardware and the actual hardware had not changed. I am not a NASA engineer but it would appear to me that the tuner can be improved through software upgrades based upon various posters comments.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> If the OTA tuner was not picking up a station before a software upgrade but the same OTA tuner then picks up the station after a software upgrade then software did improve the tuner. Am I missing something here. One poster stated that the OTA tuner had not been improved by software in this situation because the software was limiting the hardware and the actual hardware had not changed. I am not a NASA engineer but it would appear to me that the tuner can be improved through software upgrades based upon various posters comments.


I'm not trying to belittle anybody here, and let me put it in my "Blonde speak":
If the knob on my radio was broken and I couldn't tune to a station. Then someone came and fixed the knob on the radio, would that be "improving it"?
One way of looking at it would be "yes" it is improved, and another would be that since just the knob was broken, the radio itself didn't improve where is would now receive weaker signal than it did before, just that it would now be "controlled" better to receive what [radio wise] it always could [except for the broken knob].
Since it's a digital chip, it need the right software to perform. At the basic level in chips, they're analog so "software" can't change their nature. They do what they can do by design. If the chip needs a capacitor or an inductor value changed to make it better, then no amount of software will change this.


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## n3ntj (Dec 18, 2006)

Steve said:


> It's a bit over my head, but for those who are interested, it looks like there's a good explanation of how bit error rate is measured and calculated about halfway down this page: http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Nov03/HDTV_files/HDTV.htm /s


Thanks for posting the link, Steve. Some really good information!


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm not trying to belittle anybody here, and let me put it in my "Blonde speak":
> If the knob on my radio was broken and I couldn't tune to a station. Then someone came and fixed the knob on the radio, would that be "improving it"?
> One way of looking at it would be "yes" it is improved, and another would be that since just the knob was broken, the radio itself didn't improve where is would now receive weaker signal than it did before, just that it would now be "controlled" better to receive what [radio wise] it always could [except for the broken knob].
> Since it's a digital chip, it need the right software to perform. At the basic level in chips, they're analog so "software" can't change their nature. They do what they can do by design. If the chip needs a capacitor or an inductor value changed to make it better, then no amount of software will change this.


I'm not sure about "Blonde speak" but to go Old School on you, myself and many other users are interested in results. If someone fixed the knob on you radio then I would say that your radio was improved. Computers were just computers until Microsoft and Apple came along. I understand your point but the question is: Can the HR20 tuner be improved through software upgrades?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I'm not sure about "Blonde speak" but to go Old School on you, myself and many other users are interested in results. If someone fixed the knob on you radio then I would say that your radio was improved. Computers were just computers until Microsoft and Apple came along. I understand your point but the question is: Can the HR20 tuner be improved through software upgrades?


You might need to ask the engineers at D*, PACE, RCA & LG to get your answer.

If there is still a "missing" channel then yes. [The knob]
If the channel doesn't come in, most likely, no. [The hardware]


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

I can pick up a more 'stable' image/signal through the HR20 than I can through my TV's antenna...

I'm using a powered indoor antenna and I'm about 25-30 miles from the towers in my area.

All in all, I think the HR20 tuner is very good .


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I am glad that some on this forum have positive results concerning the OTA tuner on the HR20. I have a Sharp LCD that has an OTA HD tuner built in. The tuner on the Sharp is superior to the tuner on the HR20. That is my experience. There is never any pixelation or drop outs on the Sharp and the signal is consistant. I wish I could say the same concerning the HR20.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I am glad that some on this forum have positive results concerning the OTA tuner on the HR20. I have a Sharp LCD that has an OTA HD tuner built in. The tuner on the Sharp is superior to the tuner on the HR20. That is my experience. There is never any pixelation or drop outs on the Sharp and the signal is consistant. I wish I could say the same concerning the HR20.


The OTA tuner in the HR-20 will look good if your "other tuner" is really crappy.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> The OTA tuner in the HR-20 will look good if your "other tuner" is really crappy.


Good point, black and white television was cutting edge when all of your neighbors only had radio.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Maybe a poll should be done comparing the HR20 OTA tuner to other OTA tuners in general. Any thought or comments. However, that still does not help with the improvement of the HR20 tuner unless this issue becomes a priority for DirecTv.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Maybe a poll should be done comparing the HR20 OTA tuner to other OTA tuners in general. Any thought or comments. However, that still does not help with the improvement of the HR20 tuner unless this issue becomes a priority for DirecTv.


I think the reason there has been no poll is because it is universally accepted that the HR20 OTA tuner is not great. I would be astonished if less than 90% of the respondents indicated the HR20 was better than the tuner in any recent HDTV.

That aside....we get polled to death...and we wouldn't learn much from the results. D* already knows the tuner has had a lot of complaints.

It would be very easy to do an objective poll...only two choices are needed:

Is your HR20 OTA-HD tuner better or worse than the tuner in your stand alone HDTV?

The only problem I see is that it is probably unnecessary, and may irritate people who think there are already too many polls, so why ask the obvious?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Maybe a poll should be done comparing the HR20 OTA tuner to other OTA tuners in general. Any thought or comments. However, that still does not help with the improvement of the HR20 tuner unless this issue becomes a priority for DirecTv.


"other" would be too "general" IMO.
Some users like it because it works & others don't because it doesn't work.
We "know" it doesn't work well with weak, too strong or heavy multi-path signals.
Since these conditions are quite common, "I think" the answer is: it doesn't work well.
LG keeps improving the ATSC tuner chip. The fifth generation chip has been out for over 18 months. It has been discussed by the HDTV industry to improve the over all "health" along with MPEG-4 usage. D* picked up the MPEG-4, had LG make the H20-600, but "dropped the ball" on the rest of their lineup.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> "other" would be too "general" IMO.
> Some users like it because it works & others don't because it doesn't work.
> We "know" it doesn't work well with weak, too strong or heavy multi-path signals.
> Since these conditions are quite common, "I think" the answer is: it doesn't work well.
> LG keeps improving the ATSC tuner chip. The fifth generation chip has been out for over 18 months. It has been discussed by the HDTV industry to improve the over all "health" along with MPEG-4 usage. D* picked up the MPEG-4, had LG make the H20-600, but "dropped the ball" on the rest of their lineup.


Very Old School,

I agree with you regarding DirecTv not using the 5th generation ATSC OTA chip. However, I hope that the HR20 tuners can be improved through software upgrades.

Here is an example. I own a first generation HD DVD player from Toshiba. (HD-D1). Toshiba has drastically improved their 1st Gen HD DVD players through software upgrades. The players now have more features, are more stabile (less disc playing problems, etc), and are faster. The hardware has not changed but the software has and it has made a big diffrence.

DirecTv has done a good job of spooling out software upgrades for the HR20 but the tuner is still very poor in my opinion. I do not know if the tuner can be improved through software. DirecTv may or may not know if the tuner can be improved through software. However, DirecTv made the decision to not use the 5th genaration OTA chips and therefore it is their responsibilty to find a solution.

DirecTv states on their web site that you can receive OTA HD channels using their equipement which includes the HR20. Cable usually provides your local station in HD in most areas where DirecTv does not unless you live in a few specific locations. Therefore DirecTv needs to fix their OTA reception if it can be fixed.

The purpose of this thread is to hopefully get DirecTv's attention regarding this issue.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

*geaux tigers*, I think we're in complete agreement.
I do hope the OTA tuner could be improved with some software "tweak", I'm just not holding my breath for it, for all of the reasons I'd posted.
I've worked places that the software guys were to make everything "right" with workarounds to hardware limitations. In this case I really don't think there is anything that can make a significant improvement other than fixing: the guide database and having it scan for channels it can get. Both of these are a software issue & not limited by the actual hardware used in manufacturing.
I will be one of the first to stand up and say "I was wrong" if D* could make reception improvements.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> *geaux tigers*, I think we're in complete agreement.
> I do hope the OTA tuner could be improved with some software "tweak", I'm just not holding my breath for it, for all of the reasons I'd posted.
> I've worked places that the software guys were to make everything "right" with workarounds to hardware limitations. In this case I really don't think there is anything that can make a significant improvement other than fixing: the guide database and having it scan for channels it can get. Both of these are a software issue & not limited by the actual hardware used in manufacturing.
> I will be one of the first to stand up and say "I was wrong" if D* could make reception improvements.


Very Old School,

We are in agreement and I hope your wrong as well. However as I have stated I am not sure. It sure would be nice to have an LG HR20-600 with a great OTA tuner. Is there is a DirecTv insider reading this thread, we sure would appreciate some insider information.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

I may be wrong but if I remember correctly from my old submarine navy days, a 3db loss may not seem significant BUT that would equate to a _*50% DECREASE* in power!_ If this is so, that is a HUGE signal reduction at the splitter!

Norfolk



Milominderbinder2 said:


> For some time Earl had relayed to us that the hardware could not receive Low VHF, channels 2-6.
> 
> Then one day, it could.
> 
> ...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

NorfolkBruh said:


> I may be wrong but if I remember correctly from my old submarine navy days, a 3db loss may not seem significant BUT that would equate to a _*50% DECREASE* in power!_ If this is so, that is a HUGE signal reduction at the splitter!
> 
> Norfolk


You are remembering correctly, but there is not other way to split a signal in two for equal power down both legs. I hope you also remember a 44 dB signal to noise ratio verses a 47 dB signal to noise ratio is still very acceptable for a received signal.


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## NorfolkBruh (Jun 9, 2007)

VOS... I do remember that but SnR is not the same as power. IF this is a hardware issue then why didn't "they" design this with an amp circuit with a simply 1/0 (on/off) for when the tuner is active? There would not have been any power loss and the SnR would be significantly higher. The cost for a transistor would have been less then a penny per unit for the anticipated millions of units created!

With respect to this threads' question, I don't see how a software change would make any significant difference in trans/rcv pwer at the unit but it COULD improve SnR (which from what I am reading is already sufficient for the unit). BUT if the rcv power isn't sufficient then no matter what the SnR, the unit can't process it (the signal) adequately.

Just a thought!

Norfolk



veryoldschool said:


> You are remembering correctly, but there is not other way to split a signal in two for equal power down both legs. I hope you also remember a 44 dB signal to noise ratio verses a 47 dB signal to noise ratio is still very acceptable for a received signal.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

NorfolkBruh said:


> VOS... I do remember that but SnR is not the same as power. IF this is a hardware issue then why didn't "they" design this with an amp circuit with a simply 1/0 (on/off) for when the tuner is active? There would not have been any power loss and the SnR would be significantly higher. The cost for a transistor would have been less then a penny per unit for the anticipated millions of units created!
> 
> With respect to this threads' question, I don't see how a software change would make any significant difference in trans/rcv pwer at the unit but it COULD improve SnR (which from what I am reading is already sufficient for the unit). BUT if the rcv power isn't sufficient then no matter what the SnR, the unit can't process it (the signal) adequately.
> 
> ...


It's not that simple (one transistor). Doing something that cheap and simple would only result in poorer performance than one had with the 3 dB passive splitter loss. Care has to be taken to preserve dynamic range, noise figure and resistance to overload. Jamming in one transistor is NOT going to do this. The solution proposed is worse than the problem it purports to cure. Beware of the law of unintended consequences.

By far, the best and most cost-effective solution in this RF application is a passive splitter. If one needs to improve SNR, do it at the right place (at the antenna). Doing it at the end of a 40 to 100 foot length of lossy coax is moronic. The place for the "transistor" being debated is out at the antenna, not in the HR20. Out there it becomes a low noise preamp (with proper safeguards for noise figure and overload). The net improvement in this approach would be between 5 and 12 dB (depending on total coax loss in the run from the antenna to the HR20) in REAL sensitivity...making the paltry splitter loss inconsequential.

Maybe I just missed what is being discussed. If I did, please accept my humble apologies, and ignore my ravings.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

NorfolkBruh said:


> I may be wrong but if I remember correctly from my old submarine navy days, a 3db loss may not seem significant BUT that would equate to a _*50% DECREASE* in power!_ If this is so, that is a HUGE signal reduction at the splitter!
> 
> Norfolk


3 dB loss at the antenna would be HUGE. 3 dB loss at the splitter of the HR20 tuner is NOT.

Sensitivity is properly established at the antenna (see my other post). Saying that the power reduction of 50% is huge is very misleading. I lose 7 dB inside the house...and it means NOTHING. Why? Because I set the sensitivity BEFORE the loss using a low noise preamp....losses AFTER a low noise preamp are inconsequential. 3 dB and 50% power reduction are saying the same thing....one just "sounds" more dramatic than the other. For those of us used to working in RF terms, the dB scale is MUCH more revealing. 3 dB loss at the antenna is terrible. 5 to 7 dB loss in the feedline is terrible. 3 dB loss at a splitter is trivial, because it is so far down the "sensitivity chain".

All of this is pretty meaningless if you have a very strong signal in the first place, wherein you can tolerate a 6 to 10 dB loss and not see any difference in Bit-Error-Rate anyway.

If it isn't meaningless, then the place to look is not at the HR20 splitter...it is BEFORE the splitter. Here is the "right" way to do it:

Antenna > 18" jumper > Low Noise Preamp > 50 to 100' of coax > HR20 (or more splitters and then the HR20.)

....here is an acceptable compromise for runs of 40' or less:

Antenna > 40' coax > Low Noise Preamp > Splitter(s)> Attenuator > HR20 et al

Notice in no case was it necessary or even desirable to internally overcome the losses in the HR20 splitter. It's a non-problem.

If your signal is very, very weak, then the low noise preamp MUST go at the antenna.

Also note, that in each case I am specifying a LOW NOISE PREAMP, not the garden variety distribution amps that are so ubiquitous in the TV world. They have terrible noise figures (killing sensitivity) and their gain is not well managed.

Doing OTA installations correctly requires substantive knowledge, not speculation and hope. (or believing advertising claims) Doing OTA to maximize HR20 performance requires a LOT of adjustment. It can be done and the results can be very, very good. If your HR20 does a good job right out of the box, count yourself as quite fortunate. If not, there are concrete things you can do, and NONE of them include worrying about the paltry loss of the HR20's internal splitters.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Does anyone know what specific OTA tuner is used by the HR20. I have read threads where the type is speculated upon, but I have not seen anything concrete. Thanks.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> As for our "different experiences", I will just comment that I've been testing receivers for 30 years, and while I don't know everything, I do know receiver testing & specs. FWIW


You have 5 years on me.  On the other hand I was reporting my recent (within the last month) tests which should appear in print in a few months. Please point me to your tests and we can compare results.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Keeska said:


> You have 5 years on me.  On the other hand I was reporting my recent (within the last month) tests which should appear in print in a few months. Please point me to your tests and we can compare results.


My testing is done in the shadow of three 300' mountain ridges between my antenna and the towers 62 miles away. While this isn't "normal" user conditions, it does show each receiver's "weaken/strength" to weak and multi-path signals.

Hasan's work I'm sure would be of greater benefit for you to compare yours with.


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## Keeska (Feb 10, 2007)

hasan said:


> You can talk about sensitivity all you like, but sensitivity is NOT dynamic range. Sensitivity is ONE COMPONENT of the dynamic range equation.
> 
> Dynamic Range in dBm = Blocking Level (in dBm - Receiver Sensitivity (in dBm))
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Everyone was using the term Dynamic range without indicating which of the two parameters was the problem (orr if both were) Saying the tuner has poor dynamic range without specifying which of the two meastured values it has trouble with is not saying a lot.

So what is your measured value for each parameter in the Dynamic range equation you show?


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Up until two days ago I would have agreed that the HR20 OTA tuner was a disaster.

I have had the HR20-700 since January 5, but it was June 2 before I got around to replacing the 30-year-old twin lead to my 20-year-old VHF/UHF roof antenna with a coax connection. I was then able to receive Los Angeles area HDTV stations, which are 28.5 miles from my house. The signal strength varied from 51% to 100%, but actual reception of channels was non-existent or intermittent at best, even on the 100% signal strength channels. 

When I checked OTA signal strength I noticed that only one OTA tuner was working. I called DirecTV Thursday and finally convinced the CSR to send a truck out, scheduled for Friday morning between 8 and 12. Techs arrived about 11 am and confirmed that only one tuner was working, but initially stated that the condition was normal, as there was only one OTA antenna connection on the back of the HR20. After a phone conference with their office they pulled a new HR20-700 from the truck and installed it, but said that if testing showed only one tuner connected on the new box they would reinstall the old one. Fortunately the new box showed two working tuners.

I am now receiving all the LA HD locals and subchannels. I am especially happy to get KCAL 9 in HD, which carries many Dodger games, and both PBS HD channels KCET and KOCE, which carry separate programming. OTA HD on the network channels appears to be a slightly better picture than on the satellite. OTA also shows up a couple of seconds ahead of the satellite signal.

My point is that a defective box may be the cause of at least some of the OTA problems reported. This doesn't really answer the question about improving the OTA tuner through software, but it certainly can be improved through hardware 

I am well satisfied with the phone response, the overnight scheduling, and the work done by the technicians. :dance01:

Bill


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

billsharpe said:


> Up until two days ago I would have agreed that the HR20 OTA tuner was a disaster.
> 
> I have had the HR20-700 since January 5, but it was June 2 before I got around to replacing the 30-year-old twin lead to my 20-year-old VHF/UHF roof antenna with a coax connection. I was then able to receive Los Angeles area HDTV stations, which are 28.5 miles from my house. The signal strength varied from 51% to 100%, but actual reception of channels was non-existent or intermittent at best, even on the 100% signal strength channels.
> 
> ...


Bill,

I am glad to hear that you are able to receive all of your stations. I live in Shreveport, LA and am able to receive most of my HD OTA channels. However, the channels have frequent dropouts and the signal is weak at times. However, I have a Sharp LCD hooked up the same way as I have my 4 other HR-20s hooked up and the tuning on the Sharp is rock solid with no dropouts. I also receive all of my HD OTA channels using ths Sharp. The Sharp tuner allows me to receive all of the HD channels even if they are not listed as stations broadcasting in your area. (sub channels, etc.) The HR-20 will not let you manually add channels if they are not listed as broadcasting from their guide information. That is the reason that myself and others on this forum believe the HR20 tuner needs to be improved.


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> ...I have had the HR20-700 since January 5, but it was June 2 before I got around to replacing the 30-year-old twin lead...


You were using twin lead?

I did not even mention in the _HR20 FAQ_ not to use twin lead. I just could not imagine that someone would try to use wire from the 1960's. I will get them updated!

300 Ohm twin lead is the absolute worst care for multipath.

Wow. In the words of Homer Simpson, "I need a beer!"

- Craig


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> You were using twin lead?
> 
> I did not even mention in the _HR20 FAQ_ not to use twin lead. I just could not imagine that someone would try to use wire form the 1960's. I will get them updated!
> 
> ...


It doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be, but you are right. In 99.9% of all installations it is the source of a ton of problems. For all its promise of lower loss (and it is MUCH, MUCH lower loss than coax), it is often not realized due to improper installation. Add to that that twin lead loss increases DRAMATICALLY with moisture accumulation on the plastic dielectric and one can see that the combination of cable run restrictions (must be kept away from all metal by several inches, must not bend at sharp angles, very susceptible to wire fatigue/breakage) and unrealized performance gains over coax have destined twin lead to the garbage bin of history!

I can't tell you the number of very poor twin lead installations I have seen in the past. I would venture to say that nearly every one of them violated one of the issues I noted above. It's a wonder any of them worked at all....which is mostly a credit to how strong signals were in the first place!


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

Milominderbinder2 said:


> You were using twin lead?
> 
> I did not even mention in the _HR20 FAQ_ not to use twin lead. I just could not imagine that someone would try to use wire from the 1960's. I will get them updated!
> 
> ...


No, I wasn't using twin lead to try to get OTA HD stations. The twin-lead had been there for 30+ years and hadn't been used except for FM radio reception for about 20 years. I didn't try to get the OTA HD stations until June 2, when I switched to coax. I had a week of misery until I got the defective box replaced. Then all was fine.

Bill


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

When will DirecTv allow us to manually add stations for OTA purposes. That is a software upgrade that would improve our enjoyment of receiving OTA stations using the HR20.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

I want to make sure I understand this. On the HR20 you can't just scan for HD OTA channels? They have to be in the guide? Is that correct?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> I want to make sure I understand this. On the HR20 you can't just scan for HD OTA channels? They have to be in the guide? Is that correct?


Yes


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

bto4wd said:


> I want to make sure I understand this. On the HR20 you can't just scan for HD OTA channels? They have to be in the guide? Is that correct?


It was my understanding that you can scan for ota hd.. and i heard that the actual local tuner is better than that of my old hughes hd tivo...


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> When will DirecTv allow us to manually add stations for OTA purposes. That is a software upgrade that would improve our enjoyment of receiving OTA stations using the HR20.


That's the 64K question and no one has a clue when or EVEN IF they will add it.


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

so what tuner is better the old hughes hd tivo tuner or the direct tv dvr hr 20-700.. also u can scan for hd ota with this box...


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

eddy13 said:


> It was my understanding that you can scan for ota hd.. and i heard that the actual local tuner is better than that of my old hughes hd tivo...


Well, yes, you can scan for OTA HD (or strictly speaking Digital TV) but the receiver will only list the stations it finds in Tribune's database rather than all the ones that may currently be within your reception range.

I can't vouch for how good the HD20 tuner is compared with others, as my 3-year-old Samsung TV is only HDTV capable and needs help (from cable, satellite, ATSC tuner) to get any HD signals.

Bill


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> Well, yes, you can scan for OTA HD (or strictly speaking Digital TV) but the receiver will only list the stations it finds in Tribune's database rather than all the ones that may currently be within your reception range.
> 
> I can't vouch for how good the HD20 tuner is compared with others, as my 3-year-old Samsung TV is only HDTV capable and needs help (from cable, satellite, ATSC tuner) to get any HD signals.
> 
> Bill


I can't tell for sure what you're saying, but NO you cannot scan for OTA stations that are not in the guide with the HR20.

Maybe you were referring to the other box. The HR20 isn't scanning OTA in the traditional sense...it is merely reading data files. Scanning means it actually goes out on RF and looks for digital signatures. This is DOES NOT do....and it should.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

You're saying that the HR20 is searching the Tribune database rather than scanning for RF signals.

If that's the case then it seems you'd need hardware changes for the scan capability.

At any rate in the LA area the stations found include the ones I'm interested in -- two separate PBS HD feeds and KCAL, which carries local news and some Dodger games in HD.

Bill


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> You're saying that the HR20 is searching the Tribune database rather than scanning for RF signals.
> 
> If that's the case then it seems you'd need hardware changes for the scan capability.
> 
> ...


It would be a "pure software" routine. Tune to "x" is there a signal, yes/no. Tune to "x+1" is there a signal.........


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

billsharpe said:


> You're saying that the HR20 is searching the Tribune database rather than scanning for RF signals.
> 
> If that's the case then it seems you'd need hardware changes for the scan capability.
> 
> ...


The HR20 tuner has a signal meter. Therefore, it seems like it should also be able to scan for channels since it has a meter to detect signals. Would this be correct logic?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> The HR20 tuner has a signal meter. Therefore, it seems like it should also be able to scan for channels since it has a meter to detect signals. Would this be correct logic?


See ^^^^ yes it could.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> You're saying that the HR20 is searching the Tribune database rather than scanning for RF signals.
> 
> If that's the case then it seems you'd need hardware changes for the scan capability.
> 
> ...


The scan for channels is already available in the hardware. It was once implemented in software, taking advantage of the hardware capabilities (in internal D* testing). It caused some catastrophic problems and was removed (software). Hopefully they will get it right and put it back in. If you have a manual, you will notice that it says in the manual that it will scan OTA for channels.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> You're saying that the HR20 is searching the Tribune database rather than scanning for RF signals.
> 
> If that's the case then it seems you'd need hardware changes for the scan capability.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying....and no, it needs no hardware changes to scan. It's purely a software issue, see my prior post.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

Thanks for the input. So once again, to answer the OPs question, it seems that the OTA Tuner (or total operation/use of the tuner) could be improved by software if D* turned OTA scanning back on.


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

hasan said:


> Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying....and no, it needs no hardware changes to scan. It's purely a software issue, see my prior post.


Yes, it's logical that the OTA tuners should be able to scan for stations. But I see a problem with having stations listed if there is no program information for the station, i.e. no listing in the Tribune database.

How would you schedule a recording of a future program on such a station other than using manual time recording? You'd also need an alternate source of program information to know what programs you wanted to record and when they were on.

In the LA area, at least, the concern is hypothetical. It appears that all local digital channels are in the database. The only ones missing are those that aren't on the air yet.

One (and there were many others) reason I got rid of my Time Warner DVR was that the set lost all program scheduling information for several days, making it impossible to schedule future programs for recording on any channel.

Bill


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

billsharpe said:


> Yes, it's logical that the OTA tuners should be able to scan for stations. But I see a problem with having stations listed if there is no program information for the station, i.e. no listing in the Tribune database.
> 
> How would you schedule a recording of a future program on such a station other than using manual time recording? You'd also need an alternate source of program information to know what programs you wanted to record and when they were on.
> 
> ...


On D* tuners that do scan: "regular programing" is what is listed in the guide.


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## sadmaker (Sep 16, 2006)

how does the HR-20 OTA reception compare to that of the H-20?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

sadmaker said:


> how does the HR-20 OTA reception compare to that of the H-20?


Not nearly as good. The HR20 is much pickier about signal quality (not just strength), and the HR20 won't scan for stations....the H20 will.

That said, the HR20 can be made to work pretty darn well, if you are willing to invest the time and effort to do so. It shouldn't be required, but that's a shoulda, woulda, coulda mantra that I'm not interested in getting into.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

sadmaker said:


> how does the HR-20 OTA reception compare to that of the H-20?


Equal to the -100 & much poorer than the -600.


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

Ok I have my old tivo which is the hughes hd tivo I bought it like 2 yrs ago.. Now with that tivo I would scan ota locals and set season pass on all my fav shows that i saw in the guide.. are u telling me that I will not be able to scan for ota locals with my new hr20-700 and I will not receive a guide with shows information that i can set certain shows for season pass.. I will always prefer local ota rec over direct tv locals in hd due to the quality... a. can i scan for ota locals if not then how do i get the ota locals show up and b.. will i see a guide info on all shows for my ota locals where i can set for season pass.. also has anyone compared the ota signal tuner from the hr 20-700 to the hd hughes tivo.. is the tuner about the same...


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

eddy13 said:


> Ok I have my old tivo which is the hughes hd tivo I bought it like 2 yrs ago.. Now with that tivo I would scan ota locals and set season pass on all my fav shows that i saw in the guide.. are u telling me that I will not be able to scan for ota locals with my new hr20-700 and I will not receive a guide with shows information that i can set certain shows for season pass.. I will always prefer local ota rec over direct tv locals in hd due to the quality... a. can i scan for ota locals if not then how do i get the ota locals show up and b.. will i see a guide info on all shows for my ota locals where i can set for season pass.. also has anyone compared the ota signal tuner from the hr 20-700 to the hd hughes tivo.. is the tuner about the same...


No scan for channels in the HR20. The D* database determines which OTA stations you get. If it's right, your good. If it's wrong your SOL until they fix it. I've been waiting 6 months for 3 corrections.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

eddy13 said:


> Ok I have my old tivo which is the hughes hd tivo I bought it like 2 yrs ago.. Now with that tivo I would scan ota locals and set season pass on all my fav shows that i saw in the guide.. are u telling me that I will not be able to scan for ota locals with my new hr20-700 and I will not receive a guide with shows information that i can set certain shows for season pass.. I will always prefer local ota rec over direct tv locals in hd due to the quality... a. can i scan for ota locals if not then how do i get the ota locals show up and b.. will i see a guide info on all shows for my ota locals where i can set for season pass.. also has anyone compared the ota signal tuner from the hr 20-700 to the hd hughes tivo.. is the tuner about the same...


Let's try it again:
You can setup your OTA channels with the HR-20 & they will show up in the guide with the info.
Now what is different is: instead of looking for the RF signals to see if there is a channel coming through your antenna, the HR-20 will read from the D* database using your Zip code. If there is a station you can get, but it isn't in the D* database, it won't show up in your guide & you can't tune to it. So you can't get it [though it is there coming in on your antenna].
If there is an error in the D* database, this will also cause you not to get a station.
"Other" receivers will scan for the channels and then compare what it finds to the D* database & if it doesn't match, will show the station and also in the guide will list it as "regular programing". The HR-20 will not.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Very Old School,

How much better is the tuner in your H20-100 vs. your HR20-700.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Very Old School,
> How much better is the tuner in your H20-100 vs. your HR20-700.


"To me" they are the same [but it scans for signals].
It's the -600 that has the "great" OTA tuner.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> "To me" they are the same [but it scans for signals].
> It's the -600 that has the "great" OTA tuner.


I meant to ask vs. the H20-600.


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

ok do u guys know if the hr 20 700 would it ever scan for ota with software updates.. also does anyone here have the hr 20 with the miami guide what locals would i get...


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

ok let me get this right... my local ota channels are predetermined by the tribune.. so are u saying that if i setthe hr20 on season pass for a local ota channel program to record all season will it have any interruptions.. with my old hd tivo i never missed a single recording through season pass through ota as the signal was never lost or the guide was never misinformed... so is it safe to season pass all of my favorite ota programs with the hr20 ota tuner...


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

k so if my channels are there in the tribune does that mean that i will be able to record on a season pass my programs on that channel just like i did with my old hd tivo and never miss a recording.. im beginning to think that it might be a mistake to let go of my hughes hd tivo which scanned for all my ota channels..


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

eddy13 said:


> k so if my channels are there in the tribune does that mean that i will be able to record on a season pass my programs on that channel just like i did with my old hd tivo and never miss a recording.. im beginning to think that it might be a mistake to let go of my hughes hd tivo which scanned for all my ota channels..


I beleive you should be able to set up a season pass using this system but if the channel is not on Tribune but if it is not then you are SOL.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

eddy13 said:


> ok let me get this right... my local ota channels are predetermined by the tribune.. so are u saying that if i setthe hr20 on season pass for a local ota channel program to record all season will it have any interruptions.. with my old hd tivo i never missed a single recording through season pass through ota as the signal was never lost or the guide was never misinformed... so is it safe to season pass all of my favorite ota programs with the hr20 ota tuner...


I've been doing it for months and it works very well. If there are errors in the guide data stream (for example whether or not a show is a repeat or not), then you will get some additional programs recorded that shouldn't be.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

eddy13 said:


> ok do u guys know if the hr 20 700 would it ever scan for ota with software updates.. also does anyone here have the hr 20 with the miami guide what locals would i get...


It could scan ota channels if they turned the feature on or re-worked the code. That code was in the HR20 when they were testing it internally, and the manual for the HR20 says it scans for channels.

The problem is the feature when tested internally caused some terrible problems and they shut it down.

Whether it ever gets turned on again, no one is talking. I sure wish they would turn it back on.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

hasan said:


> It could scan ota channels if they turned the feature on or re-worked the code. That code was in the HR20 when they were testing it internally, and the manual for the HR20 says it scans for channels.
> 
> The problem is the feature when tested internally caused some terrible problems and they shut it down.
> 
> Whether it ever gets turned on again, no one is talking. I sure wish they would turn it back on.


Can Earl or someone with their ear close to the track let us know if DirecTv is working on this problem. The OTA scan is obviously a software problem.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Testing 1,2,3


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bump


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Very Old School -

I will see your bump and raise you one bump.


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## eddy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

my hr 20 is having prob locking up my channel 4,6,7 and 10.. I get signal readings in the 85 to 90 range but get frequent drop outs.. I think it may be a multipath prob since my hr10-250 hd tivo in the sam spot locks up all signals without signal drops...
can amps or powered dist switches help out with multipath prob
I will see your bump and raise you one bump.[/QUOTE]


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

eddy13 said:


> my hr 20 is having prob locking up my channel 4,6,7 and 10.. I get signal readings in the 85 to 90 range but get frequent drop outs.. I think it may be a multipath prob since my hr10-250 hd tivo in the sam spot locks up all signals without signal drops...
> can amps or powered dist switches help out with multipath prob


You already have a thread where you're asking the questions/problems for help.
Please don't double post in multiple threads. It just make everything harder to give help, & read all of your information.
"We read them all".


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

eddy13 said:


> my hr 20 is having prob locking up my channel 4,6,7 and 10.. I get signal readings in the 85 to 90 range but get frequent drop outs.. I think it may be a multi path prob since my hr10-250 hd tivo in the sam spot locks up all signals without signal drops...
> can amps or powered dist switches help out with multi path prob
> I will see your bump and raise you one bump.


[/QUOTE]

The problem handling multi path is one of the major complaints regarding the HR20OTA tuners. I am hoping that the multi path problem and others problems can be helped through software upgrades. I wish I had some good advise for you. I do not think that a power amp will help with a multi path problem but I may be wrong. Good luck.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

eddy13 said:


> my hr 20 is having prob locking up my channel 4,6,7 and 10.. I get signal readings in the 85 to 90 range but get frequent drop outs.. I think it may be a multipath prob since my hr10-250 hd tivo in the sam spot locks up all signals without signal drops...
> can amps or powered dist switches help out with multipath prob


Eddy,

I recommend everyone take their OTA questions to their local DMA thread over at AVSForum.com. The folks there know the specifics or the locals you receive, their frequencies, possible multipath problems and other known problems. The folks here at DBSTalk don't.

For Miami check out: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10805373#post10805373

If you don't know the specific thread for your location/DMA check the master list at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241

SAT issues can be addressed here just fine, but the AVSForum.com local threads have engineers from the local stations answering questions openly and not through super secret sources.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

bto4wd said:


> Eddy,
> 
> I recommend everyone take their OTA questions to their local DMA thread over at AVSForum.com. The folks there know the specifics or the locals you receive, their frequencies, possible multipath problems and other known problems. The folks here at DBSTalk don't.
> 
> ...


That is a very good suggestion but please continue to post here. The only way we can get DirecTv's attention is to let our voices be heard.


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## kevinwmsn (Aug 19, 2006)

I added extra zip codes to pick up channels out of my DMA.


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## ncxcstud (Apr 22, 2007)

For what it's worth...since the new GUI update, my 'signal levels' for my OTA channels have increased by 10 on all channels.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

ncxcstud said:


> For what it's worth...since the new GUI update, my 'signal levels' for my OTA channels have increased by 10 on all channels.


Has anyone else experienced this and are you using an HR20-700 or HR20-100.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Has anyone else experienced this and are you using an HR20-700 or HR20-100.


There are posting like this that come after every update, either higher or lower "numbers", but there are more variables than most keep track of that would account for it & it isn't "wide spread" across the user base.


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## David Carmichael (Mar 12, 2007)

}Cross Post{
Software upgraded in May'07 fixed my single digit HD DIGITAL signal troubles... 
Software June'07 reintroduced the single digit troubles...!!
System keeps trying to move my local channel 3-1 and 8-1 to either wrong call sign or will not tune in these channels at all!! {Again}


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Did the new CE impact the OTA tuners?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Did the new CE impact the OTA tuners?


No, nor was they any mention of it in the release notes.

Same missing channels, mis-mapped channels, wrong guide info that has been in evidence here for nearly 5 months.

All else OTA continues to work just fine.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

hasan said:


> No, nor was they any mention of it in the release notes.
> 
> Same missing channels, mis-mapped channels, wrong guide info that has been in evidence here for nearly 5 months.
> 
> All else OTA continues to work just fine.


Everything that you just mentioned is software related. I hope this becomes a priority with DirecTv soon.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Everything that you just mentioned is software related. I hope this becomes a priority with DirecTv soon.





> Same missing channels, mis-mapped channels, wrong guide info that has been in evidence here for nearly 5 months.


None of which is software in the HR-20, but all in the D* database.


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## David Carmichael (Mar 12, 2007)

David Carmichael said:


> }Cross Post{
> Software upgraded in May'07 fixed my single digit HD DIGITAL signal troubles...
> Software June'07 reintroduced the single digit troubles...!!
> System keeps trying to move my local channel 3-1 and 8-1 to either wrong call sign or will not tune in these channels at all!! {Again}


Well I have been 'resetting/rebooting' twice a day since the software upgrade..
And tonight the tuner/channel map mapped the single digit DTV channels correctly...

So now 3-1 & 8-1 are tuning in correctly....

--David


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Done of which is software in the HR-20, but all in the D* database.


Which = software doesn't it? It's not a change in the chip set is it? It's not a change that requires a recall of the unit, correct? OS, guide data or data data still = software ware. Correct?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Which = software doesn't it? It's not a change in the chip set is it? It's not a change that requires a recall of the unit, correct? OS, guide data or data data still = software ware. Correct?


While "related" to the HR-20, those "changes" would NOT be in the software IN the HR-20.
To try to put another way: if a web page is changed, it will look different to you from your computer, but it isn't anything in your computer that caused the change.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> While "related" to the HR-20, those "changes" would NOT be in the software IN the HR-20.
> To try to put another way: if a web page is changed, it will look different to you from your computer, but it isn't anything in your computer that caused the change.


Correct. But it the OTA HD reception of the HR20 can be improved without hardware changes (software/firmware or guide data) doesn't that fit the OPs original question? Basically can the OTA tuner be improved upon without getting a new box.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> Basically can the OTA tuner be improved upon without getting a new box.


Well if you can give more details to this, it would be the answer to the OP's question, that NOBODY has yet given.
So what do you know? 

Software improvements to date:
1) OTA was activated four months after the HR-20 was released.
2) Low band VHF was activated another five months later.
3)?


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Well if you can give more details to this, it would be the answer to the OP's question, that NOBODY has yet given.
> So what do you know?
> 
> Software improvements to date:
> ...


But hasn't that question already been answered? Lo VHF channels didn't work earlier but work now. So I would guess the answer is YES.

One doesn't need to know how asprin relives a headache to know it works, does one? You take an asprin, your headache goes away. In this case you get a new software release and you get HD channels you couldn't get before. DUH!

Asprin makes headaches go away and software makes the OTA HD tuner work better. So I'll give the answer from my little mind.

YES.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> I'll give the answer from my little mind.


I will agree with you on that much.
Those were the two improvements made. Since these were "defects" in the software, as I posted, these were improvements.
Now to the OP's question [not what has been done] what *can be* improved with more software is the question?
Except for some very silly "semantics", I don't see any point you're making to the OP's question: Can the HR-20 OTA tuner be improved through software?
"Can" is in reference to the future and not the past as in "has".
The HR-20 OTA tuner is in reference to the unit.
"Improved" would mean from how it is currently working.

Now does this make it clearer for you to understand the topic?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> But hasn't that question already been answered? Lo VHF channels didn't work earlier but work now. So I would guess the answer is YES.
> 
> One doesn't need to know how asprin relives a headache to know it works, does one? You take an asprin, your headache goes away. In this case you get a new software release and you get HD channels you couldn't get before. DUH!
> 
> ...


You seem to be missing a critical point that others have tried to explain, but for some reason their explanations are getting lost in the discussion.

The main complaints about the HR20 OTA tuner involve the actual tuner performance, i.e. sensitivity, selectivity, dynamic range and performance in the face of multi-path. The question the OP asked has to be considered in those terms, not whether they screwed up the code and somehow didn't have low-VHF working, or did not have OTA turned on at all. Yes, turning it on is an improvement, yes fixing the missing low-VHF channels is an "improvement" Is this what the OP meant? If so, it was a very poor question, whose answer is meaningless. Of course turning on OTA improves OTA. Of course enabling an entire set of frequencies that were missing "improves" OTA. What a silly question! The real question is now that we have OTA, now that low-VHF has been enabled CAN the HR20 tuner performance be improved ...see my answer below.

There is VERY LITTLE that they can do with the HR20 OTA tuner to affect sensitivity, selectivity, dynamic range and multi-path immunity. Those parameters are pretty much "set" by the choice of the tuner chipset. They might be able to do a little "tweaking" here or there....but no one posting here has a clue as to what tweaking could be done, unless they are an RF engineer familiar with the chipset (and its implementation), or are part of the D* design team.

The question by the OP called for nothing but SPECULATION about D* improving the HR20 OTA tuners. It used the word "CAN" ....no one knows. Those of us familiar with RF design issues have said that the chipset is the dominant factor in how the tuner is going to perform.

I don't know what more to say.

As I said earlier in the thread, the important question is SHOULD it be improved...in other words, is it lacking? The answer to that is an unequivocal YES.

If the OP's original intention was to ask if the hardware limitations of the HR20 OTA tuner chipset precluded improved tuner performance via software tweaks, then the answer is probably only a very little, and NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE, without the technical competence to address the question.

The fact is, as consumers, we don't need to know the answer to that question. If the tuner's performance doesn't meet our needs, we need to hold D*'s feet to the fire to improve it, however they can. They may reply..."this is all it can do", and in that case, the answer to the initial question is NO.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

hasan said:


> You seem to be missing a critical point that others have tried to explain, but for some reason their explanations are getting lost in the discussion.
> 
> The main complaints about the HR20 OTA tuner involve the actual tuner performance, i.e. sensitivity, selectivity, dynamic range and performance in the face of multi-path. The question the OP asked has to be considered in those terms, not whether they screwed up the code and somehow didn't have low-VHF working, or did not have OTA turned on at all. Yes, turning it on is an improvement, yes fixing the missing low-VHF channels is an "improvement" Is this what the OP meant? If so, it was a very poor question, whose answer is meaningless. Of course turning on OTA improves OTA. Of course enabling an entire set of frequencies that were missing "improves" OTA. What a silly question! The real question is now that we have OTA, now that low-VHF has been enabled CAN the HR20 tuner performance be improved ...see my answer below.
> 
> ...


If DirecTv would give us an answer then I would not feel compelled to start a thread or a poll. One of the purposes of this poll is to hold DirecTv's feet to the fire. DirecTv uses this thread to get input from us so they can improve their products. If something is not a concern to us then it is not a concern to them. DirecTv can you hear us now.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

+1 [bump]


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> +1 [bump]


I will see your bump and raise you one bump.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Does the sensitivity of the tuner on the HR20 fluctuate depending on the frequency being tuned?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Does the sensitivity of the tuner on the HR20 fluctuate depending on the frequency being tuned?


From the "chip level" I'd say no, but from the cable to the antenna the signal will. It's just the nature of cable and antennas.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Did the new CE improve the OTA tuner performance?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Did the new CE improve the OTA tuner performance?


No


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

hasan said:


> No


Hopefully, the next CE will bring good news.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Hopefully, the next CE will bring good news.


keep dreaming


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

veryoldschool said:


> keep dreaming


Dreams are what gives us hope.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

There is a new CE planned for release on 6/6 and 6/7. Hopefully, Directv will improve the OTA tuners.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I believe the new CE made my OTA reception worst. Is anyone else experiencing this?


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## cygnusloop (Jan 26, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe the new CE made my OTA reception worst. Is anyone else experiencing this?


Nothing has changed with the OTA tuners since they were enabled in December '06, except the fact that the VHF-Low channels were turned on.

My reception has been a bit worse than average the last few days, but its to due to atmospheric and topographic effects. My signals can fluctuate as much as 10%-20% with timescales of days. Nothing to do with any software release.

Hasan, or anyone else care to confirm?

Geaux tigers, I am not trying to bash your thread, I really hope there is some tweaking that D* can do to improve the OTA reception, as some of my channels are on the ragged edge. (Yes, channels that come in fine with my HDTV's tuner, so I understand your frustration). But, a drop in signal strength for a few days most likely isn't related to software.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

cygnusloop said:


> Nothing has changed with the OTA tuners since they were enabled in December '06, except the fact that the VHF-Low channels were turned on.
> 
> My reception has been a bit worse than average the last few days, but its to due to atmospheric and topographic effects. My signals can fluctuate as much as 10%-20% with timescales of days. Nothing to do with any software release.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on this. I don't believe there has been any change in the performance of OTA on the HR20 (except for the VHF-lo issue, and getting some of the station mapping errors fixed), and I don't believe there will be. It won't get better and it won't get worse. The performance of the HR20 on OTA is almost totally determined by the tuner chip, and unless the tuner chip changes (and it may do, if DirecTV gets another manufacturer like LG to build the HR20) the performance won't change.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

texasbrit said:


> I agree with you on this. I don't believe there has been any change in the performance of OTA on the HR20 (except for the VHF-lo issue, and getting some of the station mapping errors fixed), and I don't believe there will be. It won't get better and it won't get worse. The performance of the HR20 on OTA is almost totally determined by the tuner chip, and unless the tuner chip changes (and it may do, if DirecTV gets another manufacturer like LG to build the HR20) the performance won't change.


+1
I've been posting this since #24


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe the new CE made my OTA reception worst. Is anyone else experiencing this?


I did some tests on this, leaving on of my HR20's on the last CE, and one on the latest, and comparing OTA reception. They were the same.


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## Capmeister (Sep 16, 2003)

texasbrit said:


> I agree with you on this. I don't believe there has been any change in the performance of OTA on the HR20 (except for the VHF-lo issue, and getting some of the station mapping errors fixed), and I don't believe there will be. It won't get better and it won't get worse. The performance of the HR20 on OTA is almost totally determined by the tuner chip, and unless the tuner chip changes (and it may do, if DirecTV gets another manufacturer like LG to build the HR20) the performance won't change.


I have noticed one channel is showing up now that didn't work at the start, but did on my H20--but that could be the station being stronger, so I can't say for certain. But the tuner isn't bad, and I think if there's danger they could make it worse, they shouldn't touch it.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> +1
> I've been posting this since #24


I know, and some people still don't believe it. Here and in the CE forum you keep seeing posts that "the latest CE ruined my OTA reception" or "my OTA seems better with this release".


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## DblD_Indy (Dec 3, 2006)

Had to vote yes, everything including OTA has improved with each update. The Real question is when to they hit the wall on what OTA improvements they can make.


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## Bob_T (Nov 28, 2006)

I am on my fourth HR20-700. The last 3 are refurbs, and the last one ( a few days ago) has a 700CR model number. All the others were 700/700Rs.

I have made a bunch of posts about being unable to receive either 8-1 or 13-1 (NBC/Fox) after some of the recent CEs/National releases.

My OTA tuners originally showed 95+ for tuner 2 on both channels, and over 50% on tuner 1. After the updates, tuner 1 no longer locked onto signals for these channels on my first refurb (the original new HR20 was DOA!).

The second refurb was able to get the signals at 98+ on both tuners, ( using )x168?). and, I could see both channels again (as well as all the other locals in Tampa from the Riverview area). However, it had other problems (lockups, repeated spontaneous reboots).

The most recent HR20 refurb has been getting similar signals to the second one, and. so far, seems to be doing it's things just fine? This was on ver. 168, and, the CE this Friday. The original software on this unit was 0xbe. It was built in Dec., 2006?

Talks with tech support repeatedly resulted in asking me to wait for a "software" fix which they said was coming. Finally, they gave in. and, demanded I get a housecall. The tech said it was a hardware problem.

Seems to me that the tuners in my last 2 refurbs were/are better than the second one, and that my problem indeed was a hardware problem. I would guess that the change in reception noted after software changes was coincidental to increasing tuner problems?


I would be interested in opinions from forum members on this.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Bob_T said:


> I am on my fourth HR20-700. The last 3 are refurbs, and the last one ( a few days ago) has a 700CR model number. All the others were 700/700Rs.
> 
> I have made a bunch of posts about being unable to receive either 8-1 or 13-1 (NBC/Fox) after some of the recent CEs/National releases.
> 
> ...


Where are you reading the "700CR model number. All the others were 700/700Rs"?
The only hardware build is HR20-700S. 
"R's or "CR"s sound like they're refurbs.
I still believe any changes in OTA are from: changes in the transmitted signal, or the
rebooting of the recorder causing it to re-detect the tuners.
The bit error percentages are at the chip level and not effected by the software. IMO


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## Bob_T (Nov 28, 2006)

VOS- in my post, I said that my first HR20 was new and all the others including the last one (-700CR) were refurbs. The new one was -700. Next came a -700R, then a -700C. All these were off the box they came in. On the current set, the label is -700, without an "S", and, a little added sticker that it is a refurb.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Bob_T said:


> VOS- in my post, I said that my first HR20 was new and all the others including the last one (-700CR) were refurbs. The new one was -700. Next came a -700R, then a -700C. All these were off the box they came in. On the current set, the label is -700, without an "S", and, a little added sticker that it is a refurb.


So what you're describing is a change from earlier "refurbs" that didn't have much more done to them other than re-boxing.
D* seems to have setup some sort of "repairing facility" that the earlier ones didn't go through.
Now I wonder if "R" are those made in Mexico & "CR" are those that were made in China?
The "S" was on the carton but not the unit as all of the -700s are silver, & I'd guess the "C" was for China also.


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## Bob_T (Nov 28, 2006)

VOS- it gets a little confusing, but, I think you may have it sorted out now.

I did not compare the info on the carton to what was on the set (which brings up a good point that it probably is a good thing to do!) until you raised the issue about the model numbers.

So far, the latest reurb is doing it's thing!


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Bob_T said:


> VOS- it gets a little confusing, but, I think you may have it sorted out now.
> 
> I did not compare the info on the carton to what was on the set (which brings up a good point that it probably is a good thing to do!) until you raised the issue about the model numbers.
> 
> So far, the latest reurb is doing it's thing!


I would pay DIRECTV to repair my HR20s with an advanced LG OTA chip.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Has the new CE improved the OTA tuner?


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Has the new CE improved the OTA tuner?


No. And there is no reason to suppose that any software change ever will.


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## bto4wd (Apr 17, 2007)

texasbrit said:


> No. And there is no reason to suppose that any software change ever will.


But reports in the CE thread suggest release do worsen OTA reception.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

bto4wd said:


> But reports in the CE thread *suggest* release do worsen OTA reception.


is the keyword, as none of it can ever be repeated.
Too many other variables [some say the opposite too]


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

With the introduction of the new HD receiver that does not have OTA, does this mean that DIRECTV is abandoning OTA?


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## Richard L Bray (Aug 19, 2006)

I keep reading where the VHF-lo issue was fixed with a prior software upgrade. Is it possible that it was only fixed for the "700's" and not the "100's"?

I had two HR20-100's installed this week (replacing an HR10-250 and a Samsung HD satellite receiver). The HR20's receive all my OTA signals except for Cleveland NBC's station (3-1 on digital channel 2). My Sony SXRD tuner receivers 3-1, my HD Tivo and Samsung received 3-1, and even my old first generation (Mits) satellite receiver would receive/process 3-1. Since all my other tuners processed digital channel 2 and both new HR20-100's won't, it appears to be some issue with the new DVR's.

Is anyone else getting the HR20-100 to receive/process digital channel 2 or 3 OTA signals? 

Any help would be appreciated.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> With the introduction of the new HD receiver that does not have OTA, does this mean that DIRECTV is abandoning OTA?


No, it doesn't.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

veryoldschool said:


> is the keyword, as none of it can ever be repeated.
> Too many other variables [some say the opposite too]


I really can't post responses to this nonsense any more. You'll have to carry the water at this point.

This thread reminds me of "My Cousin Vinny", where Pesci says, "I come from a long line of arguers"....no point, no possible conclusion, just arguing for argument's sake.

Have fun...I'm done. Anyone with REAL OTA questions, please post in a new thread, I can't bear reading this one any longer.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

This thread should just die a quite death. To the OP: we've tried repeatedly to explain to you.
Software/firmware is not going to change the limitations of the chips used if the HR-20.
Time to move on.
Please let this fade into oblivion.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Correct me if I am wrong but the H21 is DIRECTV's first HD receiver that does not support OTA. Therefore, I believe inquiring into DIRECTV's future plans concerning support of OTA is a legitimate question. Such a direction may indicate that OTA support is a not a priority for them. If that is the case then improving the OTA reception on the HR20 may not be a priority as well.


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## bobnielsen (Jun 29, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but the H21 is DIRECTV's first HD receiver that does not support OTA. Therefore, I believe inquiring into DIRECTV's future plans concerning support of OTA is a legitimate question. Such a direction may indicate that OTA support is a not a priority for them. If that is the case then improving the OTA reception on the HR20 may not be a priority as well.


If they plan to offer every digital channel/subchannel in every market, the H21 makes sense to me; otherwise not. Perhaps the addition of OTA was based on the large number of "HD-ready" sets in the past and now that most sets have tuners they feel it isn't necessary. While true, having the tuner in my HR20, along with an integrated guide is a big plus.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

The new CE for the HR20-700 has announced improved software for the OTA tuners. Lets keep our fingers crossed.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I believe that the new CE did improve the OTA tuners based upon my initial observations. Does anyone else have an opinion regarding this?


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## ksninew (Sep 30, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe that the new CE did improve the OTA tuners based upon my initial observations. Does anyone else have an opinion regarding this?


I can say that the CE I downloaded last nite improved the OTA tuners. My signal
levels have increase by 10. Now 2 stations that have been marginal with the 
HR20 have been solid reception.


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## gulfwarvet (Mar 7, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe that the new CE did improve the OTA tuners based upon my initial observations. Does anyone else have an opinion regarding this?


mine went the other way, i lost one channel. the signals has dropped around 10 to 20% especialy on turner 1 is on the higher side of the greater %.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

gulfwarvet said:


> mine went the other way, i lost one channel. the signals has dropped around 10 to 20% especialy on turner 1 is on the higher side of the greater %.


Thanks for the reply. It looks like different members have experienced different results. Does anyone know what tweaks DIRECTV made regarding the OTA tuners in the last CE?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Thanks for the reply. It looks like different members have experienced different results. Does anyone know what tweaks DIRECTV made regarding the OTA tuners in the last CE?


If it isn't listed in the release notes, then no.
I do hope you get the answer(s) you're looking for, but as you can see, this happens with every software release.


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## Coffey77 (Nov 12, 2006)

I had a tough time with this one as I believe the tuner itself is pretty much what it's going to be. If they can flash the hardware on the tuner itself maybe but other than fidgeting with the frequency within the software I don't think they can actually improve what's coming in to the back of the HR20. 85% signal is 85%. Is it tuned correctly? I'd say "no" as they've made quite a few improvements (ie Chicago channel 2.1) and I really don't know what they did to fix that but I just guess it was a frequency modulation thing... maybe allowing it to accept .0005 mhz more or less.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Coffey77 said:


> I had a tough time with this one as I believe the tuner itself is pretty much what it's going to be. If they can flash the hardware on the tuner itself maybe but other than fidgeting with the frequency within the software I don't think they can actually improve what's coming in to the back of the HR20. 85% signal is 85%. Is it tuned correctly? I'd say "no" as they've made quite a few improvements (ie Chicago channel 2.1) and I really don't know what they did to fix that but I just guess it was a frequency modulation thing... maybe allowing it to accept .0005 mhz more or less.


It sounds like the software made an improvement to OTA reception in the Chicago area so I believe that is encouraging.


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe that the new CE did improve the OTA tuners based upon my initial observations. Does anyone else have an opinion regarding this?


There's a poll addressing this very issue in the CE forum (in case you don't get 80 replies)


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