# Dish or DTV ??? Need suggestions



## Tuckster (Nov 13, 2007)

I just found out I cannot get my local stations in HD with DTV so I need an OTA antenna and their box will not accept an OTA antenna so .... I'm considering Dish. I remember readind sometime ago that Dish HD PQ was not up to Cable or DTV. Anyone care to comment on DISH ???? 

Thanks for your help.


----------



## archer75 (Oct 13, 2006)

It's generally said that Dish PQ is better than Direct or cable. I can say that it's true for SD content. I haven't seen any difference in HD content. And yes, I have had both services in the same day on the same TV to compare. 
Direct receivers don't have a OTA port? I had the old HD Tivo box and it had a port. I didn't know their newer ones didn't.


----------



## Jim5506 (Jun 7, 2004)

DishNetworks HD picture quality is quite good.

What type of display do you have?

Only if you have a high end 1080 i or p display will you be able to see much difference between a 1080X1920 picture and a 1080X1440 picture. In fact most HDTV's resolve at 1080X1280 interlaced or 720X1280 progressive. 

Technically most of DishNetworks HD channels are 1080X1440, and it is rumored that the new DirecTV channels are 1080X1920i, so DirecTV's picture is finer, but 75% of all HDTV's can't see the difference, especially if your HDTV is 720p.


----------



## drded (Aug 23, 2006)

I've had both and I've yet to see reliable statistics that the Dish is better than Direct in PQ. Just saying so don't make it so. Put the two side by side and see how many people can reliably pick one or the other.

Go to one of the satellite TV companies that have both and compare. See for yourself and then decide.

Both companies have receivers and DVRs that offer OTA connections.

Dave


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Yep agree. PQ is a very subjective thing and can even fluctuate between channels. So depending on a persons viewing habits, equipment, location, and their own perceptions PQ opinions are made.

Personally I would start with your expected viewing habits and then compare companies based on that. If both companies meet your viewing needs then I would start looking at equipment and prices to determine which one to go with. 

From what I can tell from reading this boards is most people will be happy with the PQ delivered from either company.

As for the OTA issue. Appears the H21 does not have OTA but there is still one model of the H20 available that does offer an OTA connection. As for E* OTA, I find it works very well with my installation and is nicely integrated into the EPG.

One big plus on the E* side for OTA users is the ability to recorde three HD streams at one time. One OTA and two HD Sat.


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

archer75 said:


> It's generally said that Dish PQ is better than Direct or cable. I can say that it's true for SD content. I haven't seen any difference in HD content. And yes, I have had both services in the same day on the same TV to compare.
> Direct receivers don't have a OTA port? I had the old HD Tivo box and it had a port. I didn't know their newer ones didn't.


coming from Charter i didn't notice a difference in HD quality...except on the VOOM channels for some reason...but I did notice better SD quality from E* on my regular tv...my not my dlp...sd sucks from both companies on my HDTV


----------



## Tuckster (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses. I have a 720p PJ so it sounds like the PQ issue won't be a factor. 
I think I'll give D* (Dish) a call and see what they have to offer. Do you know if they require a 2 year committment also ??


----------



## markyd21 (Mar 28, 2006)

Tuckster said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I have a 720p PJ so it sounds like the PQ issue won't be a factor.
> I think I'll give D* (Dish) a call and see what they have to offer. Do you know if they require a 2 year committment also ??


Do 18 month commitment if you want all the perks like free in home service plan for 12 months, $50 credit on your first bill, free dish mover. Most retailers will force you into an 18 month just because they are financially responsible if you cancel, but if you go directly to dish you can bypass this issue.


----------



## markyd21 (Mar 28, 2006)

OH! And Welcome to DBSTALK!!!!


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Tuckster said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I have a 720p PJ so it sounds like the PQ issue won't be a factor.
> I think I'll give D* (Dish) a call and see what they have to offer. Do you know if they require a 2 year committment also ??


E* = Dish (EchoStar)
D* = DirecTV

And I forgot to give you a warm welcome.. my bad... :welcome_s to DBSTalk.


----------



## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

I don't agree that picture quality is totally subjective. I don't know if people are saying that because they know Dish isn't as good as the new D* HD channels or if they don't know the answer....

I haven't seen E* HD yet, so I'm pretty much going on faith that it should be almost as good as my Comcast (Fantastic HD picture, but not enough channels, plus rates keep going up.) I need to make a decision tomorrow on whether I go for D* or E*. The only real thing that D* is offering at this point that I want is Speed HD, but I realize it's not really HD yet, so I'm hopeful if I go with E* they will add it soon. 

So can anyone give an objective view on the HD PQ between these services? I mostly watch ESPN and locals, and I'm interested in Voom and the Science-type channels. I've seen ESPN HD on D* in BB and CC and it looks like garbage.


----------



## drmckenzie (Aug 28, 2007)

If it helps any, I just switched from Directv (SD only), to Dish (HD & SD). Most channels are still SD (and even a lot of HD channels are mostly SD), and I was sick of the over-compressed crap Directv dishes out. Everyone talks about resolution, but compression is the thing that really kills a picture. It doesn't matter how many pixels you have if they are all the same value!

Every week, I would have to go and remove half a dozen new channels from my Directv lineup. They didn't seem to care how much they crammed into the same bandwidth. No problem -- just crank up the compression and degrade the picture some more!

Anyway, on a side-by-side comparison between numerous Directv and Dish SD channels, Dish wins by a landslide. To me this shows some integrity, since Dish hasn't succumbed to the over-compression disease.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

qsoundrich said:


> I don't agree that picture quality is totally subjective. I don't know if people are saying that because they know Dish isn't as good as the new D* HD channels or if they don't know the answer....


No problem disagreeing and my opinion had nothing to do with D* new HD channels.. I have not seen them... My opinion was based on the numerous threads (and I have read lot) discussing which one has better quality over the last year.

Also by subjective I mean from a end users point of view and personally I think it has a lot to do with a persons sensitivity to detail, equipment the persons is viewing the material, and how well the TV the person is viewing it is calibrated etc.. (Another poster mentioned this in better detail than I can). There is so many factors that go into the final quailty of the picture that is why I think whenever a PQ thread starts you here a wide variety of opinions of which is better.

Of course there are some people that have both services and therefore can do a A/B test, but even under the circumstance there are variables like individual input calibration that could effect a persons perception.

In the end.. I think most people would be very happy with PQ from either service and that is why I suggested looking at other variables to make one's decision.

As to an objective opinion.. Good luck.. I have not seen one I would consider objective since started hanging atDBSTalk. Best I think one can hope for is some good subjective opinions of people watching both offerings currently.


----------



## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

Hah thanks Ron. Seems like this site is a little better than that .us one when it comes to flame wars. Maybe I was irritated because I got stuck over there reading pages of threads where people are just being cheerleaders for one service over another.  so pointless. 

I'll probably go with Dish because it sounds like their equipment is better. The HD offerings are almost a wash at this point, and it doesn't sound like I will be disappointed with the Dish HD picture quality. I'm also hoping I'll be able to pick up PBS OTA, but that's something I could only get on cable anyway.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

archer75 said:


> It's generally said that Dish PQ is better than Direct or cable. I can say that it's true for SD content. I haven't seen any difference in HD content. And yes, I have had both services in the same day on the same TV to compare.
> Direct receivers don't have a OTA port? I had the old HD Tivo box and it had a port. I didn't know their newer ones didn't.


Yes its generally said on an E* board, just as the opposite is true on the direct forums PQ is subjective, and you wont see that much difference. Just so you know D* has added alot of channels recently, with around 20 more added today. E* will eventually get them, but its anyones guess as to when. Not telling you to get one over the other, just for your info

D* HD boxes accept OTA unless you get the HR-21 or the H-21. If you want OTA get the HR-20 or H-20


----------



## mattopia (Oct 30, 2007)

It's been about 2 years since I've seen E*'s HD -- before they began rolling out mpeg4... but hopefully I'll be able to see it again in a few hours when the installer shows up! (Looking forward to Rave HD again, hopefully they have more content now...)

My input based on what I've seen over 2 years on HD is that nothing beats OTA broadcasts. Make sure you set up an OTA antenna regardless of which provider you go with -- if you can. With D* you're likely to not get OTA as I believe they are delivering mostly HR21's right now which do not have OTA support. You can, of course, just use your OTA tuner in your TV as well, with no DVR.

Either way, welcome!!


----------



## booger (Nov 1, 2005)

mattopia said:


> Make sure you set up an OTA antenna regardless of which provider you go with -- if you can.


Why couldn't you setup an OTA? The city I live in is in a hole so to speak and trees block the direction of digital transmissions yet I still get 12 digital channels with a great picture.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

drmckenzie said:


> If it helps any, I just switched from Directv (SD only), to Dish (HD & SD). Most channels are still SD (and even a lot of HD channels are mostly SD), and I was sick of the over-compressed crap Directv dishes out. Everyone talks about resolution, but compression is the thing that really kills a picture. It doesn't matter how many pixels you have if they are all the same value!
> 
> Every week, I would have to go and remove half a dozen new channels from my Directv lineup. They didn't seem to care how much they crammed into the same bandwidth. No problem -- just crank up the compression and degrade the picture some more!
> 
> Anyway, on a side-by-side comparison between numerous Directv and Dish SD channels, Dish wins by a landslide. To me this shows some integrity, since Dish hasn't succumbed to the over-compression disease.


when did you switch?


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

mattopia said:


> My input based on what I've seen over 2 years on HD is that nothing beats OTA broadcasts. Make sure you set up an OTA antenna regardless of which provider you go with -- if you can. With D* you're likely to not get OTA as I believe they are delivering mostly HR21's right now which do not have OTA support. You can, of course, just use your OTA tuner in your TV as well, with no DVR.


Definitely agree here. OTA is still top dog in terms of PQ. But when I have done a A/B toggle on my 722 the difference between that and my Dish HD locals in my configuration gap has definitely closed over the last year.


----------



## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

Seems DTV added 5 more channels today, but none of them have any HD content yet, and what HD content they DO have will end up on MHD (for VH1 and MTV.) 

Biography is a different story, as it will go HD at the end of the month.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

qsoundrich said:


> Seems DTV added 5 more channels today, but none of them have any HD content yet, and what HD content they DO have will end up on MHD (for VH1 and MTV.)
> 
> Biography is a different story, as it will go HD at the end of the month.


what makes you think that? Videos, sure. But the original series wont.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

> In some areas its true they are sending out more HR-21's however there is also plans(ive heard) to release an external tuner that hooks up through the USB port.(dont ask me why, it makes no sense to me either)


This to me does not make any sense at all. You have OTA in a box already, you have software already for it, and you opt to put it external. Hmm makes me wonder how the integration would be and why do that to save a minimal per box cost. hmmmm I would really be suprised to see such a device appear but who knows maybe one will.

_Mod: note.. Appears in replying I made a oops and this post appeared as a response from msmith when in was my response._


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> This to me does not make any sense at all. You have OTA in a box already, you have software already for it, and you opt to put it external. Hmm makes me wonder how the integration would be and why do that to save a minimal per box cost. hmmmm I would really be suprised to see such a device appear but who knows maybe one will.
> 
> _Mod: note.. Appears in replying I made a oops and this post appeared as a response from msmith when in was my response._


silence the D* guy huh ron? no problem

edit: Im not sure how close this is to being released and even if it actually will, its just what ive heard. Doesnt make much sense to me either


----------



## drmckenzie (Aug 28, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> when did you switch?


A couple of months ago....


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

drmckenzie said:


> A couple of months ago....


so it was before all of the new HD channels were launched? or before they were broadcasting HD on many of them anyway. I thought the argument looked like it was based on Pre-Mpeg4 HD. Its alot different and better now. They have TONS of bandwidth. 
Edit: i see that you also had SD only with D* my apologies. However even that has seemed to improve(to me anyway) since the new launch, not sure why.


----------



## klegg (Oct 31, 2006)

msmith198025 said:


> so it was before all of the new HD channels were launched? or before they were broadcasting HD on many of them anyway. I thought the argument looked like it was based on Pre-Mpeg4 HD. Its alot different and better now. They have TONS of bandwidth.
> Edit: i see that you also had SD only with D* my apologies. However even that has seemed to improve(to me anyway) since the new launch, not sure why.


Here's a question. What incentive do networks have to begin broadcasting in HD? Because one provider can show it? I'd say MOST will be upconverts until more providers offer these networks in HD.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

klegg said:


> Here's a question. What incentive do networks have to begin broadcasting in HD? Because one provider can show it? I'd say MOST will be upconverts until more providers offer these networks in HD.


and I would say that MOST arent(at least the ones launched on D* so far)

The incentive is because its the way the market is moving, its cutting edge and they wouldnt want to be left behind.


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> and I would say that MOST arent(at least the ones launched on D* so far)
> 
> The incentive is because its the way the market is moving, its cutting edge and they wouldnt want to be left behind.


yep, and once one provider gets them, the others will be scrambling to play catch up. Supply must meet the demand.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

texaswolf said:


> yep, and once one provider gets them, the others will be scrambling to play catch up. Supply must meet the demand.


Exactly, in the long run its good for everyone that D* is adding these(limited hd content or not). It puts pressure on the stations to add the programming and puts pressure on E* and the cable companies to add the channels.


----------



## OneOfOne (Sep 19, 2006)

Tuckster said:


> I just found out I cannot get my local stations in HD with DTV so I need an OTA antenna and their box will not accept an OTA antenna so .... I'm considering Dish. I remember readind sometime ago that Dish HD PQ was not up to Cable or DTV. Anyone care to comment on DISH ????
> 
> Thanks for your help.


what you need is a tv with an atsc tuner and then you wont need dish or direct. dont panic.


----------



## drmckenzie (Aug 28, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> so it was before all of the new HD channels were launched? or before they were broadcasting HD on many of them anyway. I thought the argument looked like it was based on Pre-Mpeg4 HD. Its alot different and better now. They have TONS of bandwidth.
> Edit: i see that you also had SD only with D* my apologies. However even that has seemed to improve(to me anyway) since the new launch, not sure why.


They may have loosened up the compression -- and I feel glad for current subscribers. But I still have reservations, for two reasons:

1) At the rate Directv will be adding new HD channels (they claim), and the rate they traditionally add other specialty channels, that tons of bandwidth will erode pretty quickly.

2) During last three years of my service, they didn't seem to care if they gave me (and everyone else) an increasingly inferior product. I don't see that suddenly becoming OK because they now (perhaps) aren't doing it. There has to be some accountability, and if customers are willing to just forgive it, why should companies bother to act responsibly?

Sorry -- this issue is one of my "hot" buttons!


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

drmckenzie said:


> They may have loosened up the compression -- and I feel glad for current subscribers. But I still have reservations, for two reasons:
> 
> 1) At the rate Directv will be adding new HD channels (they claim), and the rate they traditionally add other specialty channels, that tons of bandwidth will erode pretty quickly.
> 
> ...


isn't D* launching another sat? or did they already?


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

texaswolf said:


> isn't D* launching another sat? or did they already?


they launched one, with another about to go up. Another is in ground storage as a spare. So i would say they have plenty of bandwidth left to use


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> they launched one, with another about to go up. Another is in ground storage as a spare. So i would say they have plenty of bandwidth left to use


Right thats what I thought the big thing was, that they launched all these channels, and still have another sat going up for more space.


----------



## klegg (Oct 31, 2006)

texaswolf said:


> yep, and once one provider gets them, the others will be scrambling to play catch up. Supply must meet the demand.


My post REALLY was a question...not an indictment of D* and their new offerings. I just started thinking about why I would think I've got any leverage against the networks/production studios.

A couple of things to think about:

1. The content must've been produced in a format that translates well to HD. Haven't most TV series only been produced in this format for a few years?

2. I would assume D* and E* represents only a smidgeon of the TV viewing populous, therefore, I'm not sure they are putting ALOT of pressure on the networks.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

klegg said:


> My post REALLY was a question...not an indictment of D* and their new offerings. I just started thinking about why I would think I've got any leverage against the networks/production studios.
> 
> A couple of things to think about:
> 
> ...


A smidgeon yes by overall raw numbers, but very good national coverage, and even the smidgeon is several,several million customers.


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

klegg said:


> My post REALLY was a question...not an indictment of D* and their new offerings. I just started thinking about why I would think I've got any leverage against the networks/production studios.
> 
> A couple of things to think about:
> 
> ...


by "others", i meant satellite and cable companies all together...the biggest marketing campaign going on by most of these companies is HD...whether it be number of channels or quality.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

texaswolf said:


> Right thats what I thought the big thing was, that they launched all these channels, and still have another sat going up for more space.


yeah thats it. E* is in the middle of doing the same thing, just will take a little time to get there


----------



## klegg (Oct 31, 2006)

texaswolf said:


> by "others", i meant satellite and cable companies all together...the biggest marketing campaign going on by most of these companies is HD...whether it be number of channels or quality.


I agree with everything you guys are saying, but let's think of the "raw numbers". Sheesh, we're not even a blip on the map compared to the other providers combined that are OBVIOUSLY no where near D* or even E* in their abillity to show HD content. I'm thinking of this from a business philosophy. If I own a network, I have to weigh the cost vs. the return. I'm not sure the return would meet the cost yet, unless I just want to be on the "bleeding edge"...

Just a thought...


----------



## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

klegg said:


> I agree with everything you guys are saying, but let's think of the "raw numbers". Sheesh, we're not even a blip on the map compared to the other providers combined that are OBVIOUSLY no where near D* or even E* in their abillity to show HD content. I'm thinking of this from a business philosophy. If I own a network, I have to weigh the cost vs. the return. I'm not sure the return would meet the cost yet, unless I just want to be on the "bleeding edge"...
> 
> Just a thought...


true...only thing i can think is that they are making the early jump for when HDTVs aren't really a "choice" anymore?


----------



## klegg (Oct 31, 2006)

texaswolf said:


> true...only thing i can think is that they are making the early jump for when HDTVs aren't really a "choice" anymore?


I think you are right. I guess we just ALL need to hope cable gets on board soon, so we will get TONS of HD content...


----------



## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Tuckster said:


> I just found out I cannot get my local stations in HD with DTV so I need an OTA antenna and their box will not accept an OTA antenna so .... I'm considering Dish. I remember readind sometime ago that Dish HD PQ was not up to Cable or DTV. Anyone care to comment on DISH ????
> 
> Thanks for your help.


All my DirecTv HD boxes have an ATSC tuner and accept an antenna. Which receiver do you have?

As for PQ, stick with OTA. Both D* and E* compress and downrez the crap out of their HD channels. Once you see OTA HD, you will never go back.

If you have to choose between Dish and DirecTV for HD programming, go with DirecTV. They have more channels for less money.


----------



## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

I agree about the OTA vs Dish or Direct. I use OTA except for Fox(XETV), something about that Signal along the border I keep losing it here in Carlsbad. 

The HR20 from D* has the OTA, the HR21 does not have OTA. 

I would find some Friends that have each, as no company has a demo floor that I have seen or heard of, and compare the HRXX, vs ViPXXX DVR. I was on the fence getting ready to jump to D* until I compared Hardware. Dish wins that one hands Down, D* wins hands down on HD channels. Not comparing HD content, not comparing SD Upconvert, discounting HD PPV. Just in channels I like to watch and would watch, and can get D* wins. Staying with Dish as Family and I agree the Hardware, features and interface are hands down Better on the ViP. Most of the top Wishlist features for the D* HD recievers are real Features on the ViP.


----------



## Littledude (Aug 28, 2006)

peano said:


> All my DirecTv HD boxes have an ATSC tuner and accept an antenna. Which receiver do you have?
> .


HR20-700 has the ATSC tuner. I just saw the new HR21-700 at Costco and it does not have the ATSC tuner. The HR20s are still around so get one soon if you want an ATSC tuner with the HD DVR


----------



## peano (Feb 1, 2004)

Wow, I can't believe they took the ATSC tuner out! I am with E* now and all my old D* boxes have the OTA tuner. I was thinking of switching back to D* with all of their new HD channels.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

peano said:


> Wow, I can't believe they took the ATSC tuner out! I am with E* now and all my old D* boxes have the OTA tuner. I was thinking of switching back to D* with all of their new HD channels.


they took it out of TWO models. Not the whole line.


----------



## Dr. Don (Nov 14, 2007)

At the risk of starting a new line of thinking - I currently have Dish with their 722 box. I am having difficulties with the audio quality. I have hooked the 722 using the optical connection directly to a Lexicon DC2 and have surprising results. I get audio on the non-HD channels and NO audio on the HD channels. Lexicon claims it is because of the poor qulaity sampling rate used by Dish. The Lexicon willl reject any compression below 44.1 Khz. Does DTV suffer the same problem? So if you are comparing the two and have high end mixers then watch out for this problem.


----------



## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

msmith198025 said:


> they took it out of TWO models. Not the whole line.


Good point msmith. However, in my opinion it sets a bad precident and hopefully in the grand scheme of things they have a plan for OTA support that does not intail making it a 2nd class citizen and their thought is that Sat provides all the persons needs and the Cost of providing OTA support is not worth it.

Time will tell for I sure hope that is not the road they are going down.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

Ron Barry said:


> Good point msmith. However, in my opinion it sets a bad precident and hopefully in the grand scheme of things they have a plan for OTA support that does not intail making it a 2nd class citizen and their thought is that Sat provides all the persons needs and the Cost of providing OTA support is not worth it.
> 
> Time will tell for I sure hope that is not the road they are going down.


I actually think(although i have nothing to back it up) that they are just offering people a choice. If you need OTA, get the HR-20 if not get the 21. Not sure if there is or will be a price break for one over the other. If and when they do that the move will make sense, until then im as dumbfounded as the rest.


----------



## mattopia (Oct 30, 2007)

msmith198025 said:


> I actually think(although i have nothing to back it up) that they are just offering people a choice. If you need OTA, get the HR-20 if not get the 21. Not sure if there is or will be a price break for one over the other. If and when they do that the move will make sense, until then im as dumbfounded as the rest.


I've read at least a few threads saying that people specifically requested a HR-20 and the installer showed up with an HR-21. I think to be guaranteed an HR-20 you'd need to pick one up at a local retailer and make sure you were getting one of their few HR-20's left.

My guess is that D* is abandoning OTA support since they cover locals in a lot of markets now. I wouldn't be surprised if E* does the same when they get caught up on HD locals.


----------



## msmith198025 (Jun 28, 2007)

mattopia said:


> I've read at least a few threads saying that people specifically requested a HR-20 and the installer showed up with an HR-21. I think to be guaranteed an HR-20 you'd need to pick one up at a local retailer and make sure you were getting one of their few HR-20's left.
> 
> My guess is that D* is abandoning OTA support since they cover locals in a lot of markets now. I wouldn't be surprised if E* does the same when they get caught up on HD locals.


yeah, and my take on that is this. D* has had a record number of HD subs as of late, many of them signed up and got the HR-20 before the 21 was released. Then they discontinue the HR-20 700 making the stockpile even less and the HR-20 100 the only option for people that want OTA. Enter the 21 series. Alot of new subs are getting that in some areas simply because supply hasnt caught back up with the demand.


----------



## wase4711 (Jun 21, 2007)

if you want free equipment, and a much better HD DVR, then Dish is your choice
Direct TV has more locals in HD, and more sports choices, so if that type of programming is your goal, the go with Direct TV..


----------

