# Regarding the B-Band converters...



## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

Why were these things shipped separately? Why not just include them on the inside of the HR20? I haven't opened my up and probably won't, but are things really so tight in there? Or is it that they are a known item to go bad and need frequent replacement and DirecTV was just thinking ahead knowing this?


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## ckyee (Sep 12, 2006)

What does a B band do anyway? I didn't use mine.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Some early production packaging had the B-Bands excluded.

They are not "critically" necessary right now, but will be next year.

The B-Bands shift part of the Ka (or is Ku), frequency from the spectrum it is in on the RG-6 to the spectrum the receiver needs it at.


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

It's the Ka. I've read it's specifically the 250-750MHz portion. Signals on that part of the band will require the BBC.


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## LSUMBA (Feb 6, 2006)

What exactly would be on the B-Band & will they have to ship a bunch of these out for those of us that don't have the converters?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Additional pieces of the Ka signal (aka MPEG-4)
And yes, if you didn't get them in your HR20 box, they should send them to you.


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## BillyT2002 (Oct 19, 2002)

And ultimately why are they not built into the HR20???


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

Probably so they can be replaced if bad. They seem to have as high a failure rate as diplexers.


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## LSUMBA (Feb 6, 2006)

Are the HR20s the only units that will need them, or will other units (HR10) need them as well?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

The H20's need them as well..

As for why they are external... as probably in the long run, they won't be needed once FTM for consumer use is introduced.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

When FTM is introduced will it affect them? Meaning if you have them on there and don't take them off will it still work? just wondering


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Once FTM is implemented (it is a hardware thing on the consumer side)....
You would simply remove it as part of the setup


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

That what I was figuring. But what I was wondering is if they got left on would they'd cause issues or not. Basically are we going see people that say they got the FTM and now there HR20 doesn't work and we'll have to tell them to take the B band converters off the HR20?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> That what I was figuring. But what I was wondering is if they got left on would they'd cause issues or not. Basically are we going see people that say they got the FTM and now there HR20 doesn't work and we'll have to tell them to take the B band converters off the HR20?


It will happen... but then again.. FTM is going to be done by installers, or experienced users.... your average mom/pop are not going to be redoing their wiring scheme to enable FTM


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## kvitense (Sep 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It will happen... but then again.. FTM is going to be done by installers, or experienced users.... your average mom/pop are not going to be redoing their wiring scheme to enable FTM


What is FTM?

Kurt


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

Frequency Transmission Something.... 

I have to look it up at home in the manual.

Basically it is a new method to get the signal from the dish to your box.
Where they can get the ENTIRE signal on one cable... thus eliminating the need for elaborate multiswitches, and needing TWO cables to do dual recording


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## kvitense (Sep 15, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Frequency Transmission Something....
> 
> I have to look it up at home in the manual.
> 
> ...


And this will be something coming in the near future? Will we be notified? It's a hardware issue? Will DTV take care of the "upgrade"? This means we will no longer need two cables running to each DVR? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for all the answers!

Kurt


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

kvitense said:


> And this will be something coming in the near future? Will we be notified? It's a hardware issue? Will DTV take care of the "upgrade"? This means we will no longer need two cables running to each DVR? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for all the answers!
> 
> Kurt


Yes it is something comming in the future.
It is a hardware solution. but it "isn't" required. The old methods (of using multiswitches) will still work just fine.

If you want to move to the new FTM style, I am sure DirecTV would be able to accomidate you... the question is at what cost though...

And yes, you would not need two SAT feeds to each DVR..


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

The frequency transmission module will be like installing a mini cableTV headend in your house. One line to DVRs and splitters will work.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl Bonovich said:


> It will happen... but then again.. FTM is going to be done by installers, or experienced users.... your average mom/pop are not going to be redoing their wiring scheme to enable FTM


That is very true. But we have all seen storys about installers installing splitters instead of running a second line to DVR's. I can see the installer forgetting to check existing receivers. I was just curious what would happen, but I think your right that most installers will know to do this. Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## mhayes70 (Mar 21, 2006)

Am I correct in assuming that this FTM is only on the HR20 and not the R15?


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

mhayes70 said:


> Am I correct in assuming that this FTM is only on the HR20 and not the R15?


Yes, the HR20 is the first receiver to support FTM functionality.


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

However... there will be a converter for non FTM-integrated receivers.


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## mhayes70 (Mar 21, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> However... there will be a converter for non FTM-integrated receivers.


So, does that mean that there will be a box like the B-band converter to attach to the back of the R15 to make this work?


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## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

Hm. I'm a bit confused. I got my HR-20 installed last night along with the 5-LNB dish, replacing a 3-LNB dish and old SD DirecTivo.

I've still got two coax lines running from the dish to my HR-20, but the BBC's are still in their little boxes, inside the HR-20 shipping box.

Did the installer not do something right? Should I install these inline on each of the two coax runs?


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mhayes70 said:


> So, does that mean that there will be a box like the B-band converter to attach to the back of the R15 to make this work?


Basically yes..


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

mcl said:


> Hm. I'm a bit confused. I got my HR-20 installed last night along with the 5-LNB dish, replacing a 3-LNB dish and old SD DirecTivo.
> 
> I've still got two coax lines running from the dish to my HR-20, but the BBC's are still in their little boxes, inside the HR-20 shipping box.
> 
> Did the installer not do something right? Should I install these inline on each of the two coax runs?


Keep them around... 
You can hook them up now... or wait till next year when they are needed
(aka when the new sats are launched)


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## mcl (Aug 17, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> Keep them around...
> You can hook them up now... or wait till next year when they are needed
> (aka when the new sats are launched)


Thanks Earl! I'll probably go ahead and install them now, just so I don't forget later. I'd really like to use FTM, but I'll wait until the local installers are more familiar with it and the price comes down a bit.


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

You will need them eventually. You might as well install them now so you can establish they are working and so you won't lose them.


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## talbain (Sep 6, 2006)

does it matter where they are installed along the cable run? can they be installed right before the connection to the receiver? also, do they need to be put on in a certain direction (like little box closest to receiver)?

when my h20 was installed the installer didn't put this converter on. he insisted it was worthless and that i would receive a picture just fine.

today my hr20 was installed and the installer absolutely insisted they were necessary to get a picture and refused to leave unless he installed them. after he left i removed them, remembering the first guy.


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## dervari (Dec 1, 2005)

The 2nd guy was (mostly) correct. You will need it eventually. Why bother leaving them off? Just put them on and forget about it.


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## Larry G (Apr 13, 2006)

mcl said:


> Hm. I'm a bit confused. I got my HR-20 installed last night along with the 5-LNB dish, replacing a 3-LNB dish and old SD DirecTivo.
> 
> I've still got two coax lines running from the dish to my HR-20, but the BBC's are still in their little boxes, inside the HR-20 shipping box.
> 
> Did the installer not do something right? Should I install these inline on each of the two coax runs?


At least they left yours. Installers came Friday with my HR20. They hooked it up and took everything they didn't use with them except the box it came in. B-band converters, cables, everything. Now they gotta come again and drop the convertors off. Ya gotta wonder what they're thinking?


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

talbain said:


> does it matter where they are installed along the cable run? can they be installed right before the connection to the receiver? also, do they need to be put on in a certain direction (like little box closest to receiver)?


This HR20 does come with a manual you know. The B-Band convertors also have labels on them which was they should be installed.

Yes, connect them directly to the HR20.


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## tbranan (Sep 3, 2006)

Larry G said:


> At least they left yours. Installers came Friday with my HR20. They hooked it up and took everything they didn't use with them except the box it came in. B-band converters, cables, everything. Now they gotta come again and drop the convertors off. Ya gotta wonder what they're thinking?


They were thinking: " If this guy doesn't realize we took these, we can sell em on Ebay and make a coupla extra bucks..."


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## talbain (Sep 6, 2006)

tbranan said:


> They were thinking: " If this guy doesn't realize we took these, we can sell em on Ebay and make a coupla extra bucks..."


hey you know something interesting happened yesterday after the installer left relating to this. about an hour after the guy took off, directv called me and did a brief survey with me. they asked me all kinds of questions, but a few were related to whether or not the installer asked for any money for anything or whether he left me with all of the materials in the box (unneeded cables, manuals, etc).

i thought this was very interesting since it's the first time they've ever done something like this with me. looks like they're trying to crack down on people getting fleeced by the installers...


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## mhayes70 (Mar 21, 2006)

That's what it sounds like. I have had installers at my house before and I never got a call from Directv after they left. This might be a good thing, Directv is starting to do.


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## Larry G (Apr 13, 2006)

talbain said:


> hey you know something interesting happened yesterday after the installer left relating to this. about an hour after the guy took off, directv called me and did a brief survey with me. they asked me all kinds of questions, but a few were related to whether or not the installer asked for any money for anything or whether he left me with all of the materials in the box (unneeded cables, manuals, etc).
> 
> i thought this was very interesting since it's the first time they've ever done something like this with me. looks like they're trying to crack down on people getting fleeced by the installers...


Maybe the complaining I did Tues about the installers taking all my stuff did something for somebody other than me.


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## jstaffin (Sep 18, 2006)

One reason why the B-Band converters were not integrated into the unit's themselves is that with proper placement you can still diplex OTA on the cable as long as the diplexers are after the B-Band converter.

I have OTA diplexed to my H20, the B-Band converter is attached to the multiswitch via a 12 inch cable then the diplexer, then the run going to the room, then in the room into a diplexer and then into the receiver.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

jstaffin said:


> One reason why the B-Band converters were not integrated into the unit's themselves is that with proper placement you can still diplex OTA on the cable as long as the diplexers are after the B-Band converter.
> 
> I have OTA diplexed to my H20, the B-Band converter is attached to the multiswitch via a 12 inch cable then the diplexer, then the run going to the room, then in the room into a diplexer and then into the receiver.


The question is however, will this type of configuation still work with the BBC placed that far from the receiver when DTV actually starts using the "B" band?.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

jstaffin said:


> One reason why the B-Band converters were not integrated into the unit's themselves is that with proper placement you can still diplex OTA on the cable as long as the diplexers are after the B-Band converter.
> 
> I have OTA diplexed to my H20, the B-Band converter is attached to the multiswitch via a 12 inch cable then the diplexer, then the run going to the room, then in the room into a diplexer and then into the receiver.


So you're diplexing OTA on your sat lines and are still able to receive MPEG4 channels?


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

PoitNarf said:


> So you're diplexing OTA on your sat lines and are still able to receive MPEG4 channels?


I would assume it does, for now at least, as I'm sure that jstaffin would have stated otherwise that it either didn't work or not very well. But the question still stands, given that DTV is not yet using any "B" band transmissions to my knowledge. Will such a set-up work when they start to next year or so?.


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## PoitNarf (Aug 19, 2006)

HoTat2 said:


> I would assume it does, for now at least, as I'm sure that jstaffin would have stated otherwise that it either didn't work or not very well. But the question still stands, given that DTV is not yet using any "B" band transmissions to my knowledge. Will such a set-up work when they start to next year or so?.


From everything I've been reading, my understanding was that it wouldn't work even now. I imagine if it does work now that once the new sats are broadcasting you won't be able to get away with this. Can anyone confirm this scenario works?


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

The BBC converts the 250-750MHz signals up and out of the OTA range. If the diplexing occurs after the conversion, in theory it should work as the conflict no longer exists. It doesn't matter where in the coax between the dish/multiswitch and the receiver the BBC is placed.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

greywolf said:


> The BBC converts the 250-750MHz signals up and out of the OTA range. If the diplexing occurs after the conversion, in theory it should work as the conflict no longer exists. It doesn't matter where in the coax between the dish/multiswitch and the receiver the BBC is placed.


Well good news for those who want or have to diplex their OTA's then.

BTW does anyone have a link to an FCC Freq. allocation chart or something (assuming one exist) that actually descibes how the Ka band DBS satellite channels are layed out?. Been googling on the topic for a while now and still can't really find anything definitive much beyond the up/downlink freq. bands. Therefore I know the downlink is on two 500mhz bands at 18.3-18.8GHz ("B" band)and 19.7-20.2GHz ("A" band). But is it the same 32 (16LHCP, 16RHCP) transponder scheme as on the Ku band within each of the Ka band 500MHz blocks for a total of 64 transponders max. or some other?.

Thanks


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## Gary Toma (Mar 23, 2006)

greywolf said:


> The BBC converts the 250-750MHz signals up and out of the OTA range. If the diplexing occurs after the conversion, in theory it should work as the conflict no longer exists. It doesn't matter where in the coax between the dish/multiswitch and the receiver the BBC is placed.


Is there a 'polarity' issue with the BB Converters? In my case, it would be physically preferable to install the BB Converters with the mail coax connector plugged into my coax wall jack, leaving the female end of the BB Converters able to connect to the final 4-foot cables that connect to the HR20 Sat inputs.

So the question: Will the BB Converters work properly if they're installed "backwards"???

Thanks in advance for the help.....


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

highly doubt it will work backwards..


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## 69RoadRunner (Feb 17, 2006)

gct said:


> Is there a 'polarity' issue with the BB Converters? In my case, it would be physically preferable to install the BB Converters with the mail coax connector plugged into my coax wall jack, leaving the female end of the BB Converters able to connect to the final 4-foot cables that connect to the HR20 Sat inputs.
> 
> So the question: Will the BB Converters work properly if they're installed "backwards"???
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.....


Just plug them directly into the back of the HR20.


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

You could attach them near the wall with a short piece of coax and use a barrel connector at the other end to add coax.


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## surfbird (Sep 10, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> That what I was figuring. But what I was wondering is if they got left on would they'd cause issues or not. Basically are we going see people that say they got the FTM and now there HR20 doesn't work and we'll have to tell them to take the B band converters off the HR20?


alot of times on installation (h20) your signal will drop up to 18 pts.. they do need to be on the hr20s & as I stated "lord knows where" that the boyfriend-tech was proud to say the signal strength stayed high on the hr20s as high on the standard d11s did.. so that was a good sign..

oh.. i ordered my hr20 too.. install for 10/7.. sorry.. I had to throw that it.


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## cw18306 (Sep 23, 2006)

Do the B-band converters improve the exsisting signal strengths? My signals are good but I am curious if they would improve when I put the on. The 103a & b seem a little low.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

cw18306 said:


> Do the B-band converters improve the exsisting signal strengths? My signals are good but I am curious if they would improve when I put the on. The 103a & b seem a little low.


No, they're not an amplifier and should have no effect on your signal readings.


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## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

cw18306 said:


> Do the B-band converters improve the exsisting signal strengths? My signals are good but I am curious if they would improve when I put the on. The 103a & b seem a little low.


They will cause at least a small loss in signal to noise ratio.


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## cw18306 (Sep 23, 2006)

litzdog911 said:


> No, they're not an amplifier and should have no effect on your signal readings.


What are optimum readings I should be getting on 103 a & b. Are they normally lower than the others?


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

cw18306 said:


> Do the B-band converters improve the exsisting signal strengths? My signals are good but I am curious if they would improve when I put the on. The 103a & b seem a little low.


No.


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## matto (Sep 1, 2006)

cw18306 said:


> What are optimum readings I should be getting on 103 a & b. Are they normally lower than the others?


I'm getting 97 on both of the transponders I see on 103a.


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## litzdog911 (Jun 23, 2004)

cw18306 said:


> What are optimum readings I should be getting on 103 a & b. Are they normally lower than the others?


You would need to ask someone in your same "spot beam" area, otherwise you cannot compare readings. My Seattle readings will be totally different from yours for the 99-deg and 103-deg satellites.


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## Kimmer (Dec 5, 2006)

I had the HR20 installed last Friday - the installer (a new guy only with the co. one month) did not install these two b band converter module thingys. Said he never uses them and the picture comes in so we don't need it. I called CS and the young lady there had no clue - surprise, surprise. 

Can anyone tell me if I really need them or not?? 

Thanks!!!


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## Tom Robertson (Nov 15, 2005)

Welcome to the forums, Kimmer. :welcome_s

Do you need them today, perhaps not. Will you need them in the future? Yes

With the new HD signals D* going to send by the middle and end of 2007, D* will be using frequencies that will use every bit of bandwidth that coax has, even into the range used by standard and cable TV. Some of these are lower than the tuners built into the HR20 (and H20, too) can handle, so when the BBC receives a signal from the HR20, the BBC boosts the frequency range up into a tunable frequency.

If this sounds like a bandaid--yeah it does to me too. Why not build a tuner that can handle the lower frequencies as well as the upper ones?

HTH,
Tom


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## Canis Lupus (Oct 16, 2006)

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=70802&highlight=b+band+converters

This should help you. There's also a thread link towards the bottom of the first page in that thread that will take you back further with more info.


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## Bad Rex (Sep 25, 2006)

greywolf said:


> The BBC converts the 250-750MHz signals up and out of the OTA range. If the diplexing occurs after the conversion, in theory it should work as the conflict no longer exists. It doesn't matter where in the coax between the dish/multiswitch and the receiver the BBC is placed.


Does anyone have any data or evidence to dispute this?

Seems like the flavor of other posts on this topic indicate that the BBC converts Ka signals into an "acceptable range" for the HR20 tuner, which may not be completely out of the way of all OTA frequencies. I myself have no idea, just asking.

Also, when FTM is available will one be able to diplex OTA with the FTM??


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## lguvenoz (Aug 23, 2006)

kvitense said:


> What is FTM?
> 
> Kurt


*F*requency *T*ranslation *M*odule

I don't know the technical details, but know that it eliminates the need for 2 lines to your DVRs (a big boon for at least 2 of my DVRs).


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## glennb (Sep 21, 2006)

You don't need them right now, they don't hurt anything so you might as well install them so you won't be wondering when you put them someday when you need them.


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## DishDog (Nov 10, 2006)

glennb said:


> You don't need them right now, they don't hurt anything so you might as well install them so you won't be wondering when you put them someday when you need them.


The first set that I put in had to be replaced by D*.

After putting in the new ones, pixelating and audio drop on numerous channels disappeard.


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## texasbrit (Aug 9, 2006)

Bad Rex said:


> Does anyone have any data or evidence to dispute this?
> 
> Seems like the flavor of other posts on this topic indicate that the BBC converts Ka signals into an "acceptable range" for the HR20 tuner, which may not be completely out of the way of all OTA frequencies. I myself have no idea, just asking.
> 
> Also, when FTM is available will one be able to diplex OTA with the FTM??


The b-band converter moves the signals to the 1650-2150Mhz range so completely away from the OTA band.

There are a few rumors about the FTM but no hard information. However there are three possibilities for OTA.
First, that the FTM will actually include OTA. To use multiswitch terminology, the FTM will have to be a "6xn" to accommodate the four cables from the dish plus the two flexport inputs, just like the WB68 is a 6x8. It COULD be a "7xn" with a port for OTA, and the OTA signal separated out in the receiver. That would be very nice, but I'm not counting on it.
Second, the FTM could output a signal that overlaps the OTA band and so there will be NO possibility of diplexing OTA. That would be unfortunate to say the least.
Thirdly, the FTM might not handle OTA but outputs a signal that leaves the OTA frequency band (below 806 Mhz today) empty. Then you could use diplexers - maybe they would have to be wider band than the ones used today - to insert the OTA signals below the FTM ones.

Has anyone got any real information about the FTM and OTA??


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## TimGoodwin (Jun 29, 2004)

Has anyone got any real information about the FTM and OTA?? 


That's what I like to know? In one of my locations I only have two coax cables there so I would not be able to add my OTA antenna in the mix but with FTM it would make it possible. So would love to know when it will be ready!


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## Milominderbinder2 (Oct 8, 2006)

Please see this old thread:

How To Diplex OTA with the AT9 dish & MPEG-4

Most importantly pelase this diagram from post 19:

Block Diagram: Sat/OTA/BBC/Diplexer

Has anyone who actually has OTA done this with their HR20 yet?

If yes, how far away is your BBC from your HR20?

I know we will really not know how this will work with Ka and FMT until next year. Does it work today with OTA and the HR20?

- Craig


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## greywolf (Jul 13, 2005)

My contacts at DirecTV say it will work as long as the BBC is in the right place, it isn't in backwards, it's indoors, and it's functioning okay.


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## RCinFLA (Oct 4, 2006)

BillyT2002 said:


> And ultimately why are they not built into the HR20???


Future tuner modules will eventual cover the whole range. Presently they are taking advantage of the volume pricing on existing tuners.


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