# D10 Satellite TECH THREAD - HD Testing Schedule / Press Releases / Location



## Sixto

With the launch of the D10 satellite, there will be the constant question of "when will the D10 satellite go 'live' and start beaming ~100 channels of HD?"

Here's what we officially know ... will update this post as more information becomes available:

*Real-time location of D10 (cool!):* http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

*6/7/07 - D* FCC Letter #1: *http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-130667

DIRECTV 10 is fully constructed and scheduled for launch early next month (July).

DIRECTV desires to conduct *IOT for approximately four weeks* before moving the satellite slightly to its licensed position to begin commercial operations.

Specifically, DIRECTV contemplates the following schedule [with approximate dates indicated in brackets] ...

After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DIRECTV 10 will be located at 102.6° W.L. [*on or about August 17, 2007*].

After DIRECTV 10 reaches 102.6° W.L., DIRECTV will then commence IOT of the satellite [from about *August 17, 2007 to September 12, 2007*].

After IOT is completed, DIRECTV 10 will then be drifted to its assigned location over the course of approximately three days [reaching that orbital position *on or about September 15, 2007*]
*7/7/07 - Official Launch Press Release from D*: *http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1023344&highlight=

*7/7/07 - Official Launch Press Release from Boeing: *http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q3/070707d_nr.html

*7/23/07 - D* FCC Grant of Authority:* http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3445A1.txt

Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, *for thirty days commencing August 10*
*8/15/07 - D10 reaches Test Location at 102.6°:* http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

*8/16/07 - D* FCC Letter #2:* http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304

However, DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775 W.L. *on or about September 1*.
*8/20/07 - D* DVR's begin to receive "Are you High Definition Ready?" recording*

References www.directv.com/hdcheck for more information
Need 5-LNB Dish, HD Receiver (H20/HR20), and B-Band Converter Module (BBC) (or Single Wire Multiswitch- SWM)
*8/30/07 - D* FCC Grant of Authority:* http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3811A1.txt

Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for a period of 60 days commencing on *September 1, 2007*
to relocate the DIRECTV 10 satellite to 102.775º W.L. orbital location
*9/12/07 - D10 Reaches 102.775 position and first signals received on Transponder (TP) 11 for the 103(b) Satellite*


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## mhayes70

Thanks for the info Sixto!!!


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## Azalo

so we might have 100 HD channels tommorrow? cool, i'll check my guide.


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## mhayes70

Azalo said:


> so we might have 100 HD channels tommorrow? cool, i'll check my guide.


No, they said by the end of this year. We won't see any new HD channels from this Sat until or around Sept 15, 2007.


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## ohills

Azalo said:


> so we might have 100 HD channels tommorrow? cool, i'll check my guide.


!rolling


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## 1999cobra

Awesome - so when will we have, HD locals in the NorthEast kingdom - Vermont??? How about a Red Sox game in HD ???:eek2: 

Just Sayin'


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## moonman

Ch 570 just lit up


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## Sixto

The official press release:

"DIRECTV 10 Launch A Giant Leap for HD"

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1023344&highlight=


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## n3ntj

Launch was successful and looks like all is going as planned as of this morning. Was cool to see the 1 hour program last night including the launch. I think some of those people had never been on camera before. Hi.

Congrats to D* and ILS. Can't wait til D10 is turned on and put into service in Sept.

Any idea if when D10 is in its proper location and turned on and D* starts doing testing, if we'll be able to monitor anything on the ground either via signal meter for a specific transponder, for example?


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## BobbyK

The DIRECTV 10 satellite has sent its first on-orbit signals to the Boeing Mission Control Center in El Segundo, Calif., indicating that the satellite is healthy and operating normally.
http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/7351


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## Dolly

:jumpingja :sunsmile:


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## Michael D'Angelo

Thanks for the link. Sounds like great news.


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## Inches

Just took a picture of my 103 signal strength screen, so will be checking when the NA's change to a value greater than 0.


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## n3ntj

Once D10 is in its orbital slot (or before), will we be able to monitor anything relating to D10? Such as signal strength on a specific 103 deg transponder dedicated to D10?


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## ScoBuck

I'm guessing that the info is the same - but here is the link to Boeings 'official' press release.

http://www.boeing.com/ids/news/2007/q3/070707d_nr.html

good news all around (unless your charlie I think)


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## cforrest

Boeing confirmation the Satellite is in good shape & all systems go!

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q3/070707d_nr.html

*Boeing-Built DIRECTV 10 Satellite Delivers First Signals from Space*

ST. LOUIS, July 07, 2007 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today confirmed that the DIRECTV 10 satellite has sent its first on-orbit signals to the Boeing Mission Control Center in El Segundo, Calif., indicating that the satellite is healthy and operating normally.

An International Launch Services Proton Breeze M vehicle launched the satellite yesterday at 9:16 p.m. EDT (1:16 GMT July 7) from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in the Republic of Kazakhstan. The ground station in Hartebeesthoek, South Africa, reported spacecraft acquisition 9 hours, 49 minutes later.

Boeing's advanced telecommunications technology aboard the 702 model satellite will expand DIRECTV's national and local high-definition services across the continental United States, Hawaii and Alaska.

"This is the eighth satellite we've delivered for DIRECTV, which will provide unprecedented local and national high-definition television to DIRECTV customers," said Howard Chambers, vice president and general manager of Boeing Space and Intelligence Systems. "We've provided DIRECTV satellites since 1993, and we look forward to completing the on-orbit maneuvers and tests of this newest spacecraft. *Once on-orbit testing is complete, we'll hand over the satellite to DIRECTV, and they can put it into service for the 16 million DIRECTV customers who recognize the value of this space-based broadcasting system.*"

DIRECTV 10, one of three next-generation satellites Boeing is building for DIRECTV, features state-of-the-art antenna and payload subsystems and a 48-meter solar array, resulting in 18,000 watts of spacecraft power.


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## krock918316

n3ntj said:


> Once D10 is in its orbital slot (or before), will we be able to monitor anything relating to D10? Such as signal strength on a specific 103 deg transponder dedicated to D10?


I don't think so. I can't find where I read it, but I think I remember seeing that it will be parked just outside of it's orbital slot for testing. I believe the date was sometime in the middle of August for D10 to arrive in it's D* testing orbit, then it will be drifted into it's service orbit once it is done testing.

If I can find the link, I'll post it here.


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## convem24

Bring on the HD baby! This might give me a reason to get a 50 inch plasma. I can't wait until September!


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## mitchelljd

Yes i like satellites... very much!

wish tehre was a way for me to insert a Borat picture.


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## JLucPicard

mitchelljd said:


> wish there was a way for me to insert a Borat picture.


Don't bother. That's been WAY overdone already in these threads. :nono2:


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## MikeR7

ScoBuck said:


> I'm guessing that the info is the same - but here is the link to Boeings 'official' press release.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/ids/news/2007/q3/070707d_nr.html
> 
> good news all around (unless your charlie I think)


I am sure that Harsh will have something really positive to say!:lol:


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## RAD

Here's a site where you can track D10's location, http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


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## Sixto

Added Real-time location of D10 to 1st post (cool!): http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


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## HDTVsportsfan

MikeR7 said:


> I am sure that Harsh will have something really positive to say!:lol:


As always.


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## Tom Robertson

n3ntj said:


> Once D10 is in its orbital slot (or before), will we be able to monitor anything relating to D10? Such as signal strength on a specific 103 deg transponder dedicated to D10?


Possibly. It is just outside of its normal location, you might get a blip--but, the receivers are likely told to ignore the transponders right now. So you'd need a Ka-lo band signal meter to see anything.

Cheers,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

We don't need any more pix of Borat. The satellite has launched, is in orbit, he didn't help, too far OT. OK?

Thanks,
Tom


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## Tom Robertson

Merged the thread "D10 is talking to us."

Cheers,
Tom


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## Newshawk

mitchelljd said:


> Yes i like satellites... very much!
> 
> wish tehre was a way for me to insert a Borat picture.


Could we get this board delcared a Boring... er, Borat-free zone?


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## kendall

Sixto said:


> Added Real-time location of D10 to 1st post (cool!): http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


Why is the altitude & speed going down so fast. shouldn't it be going up in altitude at least? I thought it was going to be at about 23,000 miles high.


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## RAD

kendall said:


> Why is the altitude & speed going down so fast. shouldn't it be going up in altitude at least? I thought it was going to be at about 23,000 miles high.


Until it's gets to GTO the orbit is not circular so there will be variations in altitude.


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## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Until it's gets to GTO the orbit is not circular so there will be variations in altitude.


Not to pick nits (well, it IS the internet so of course we pick nits), the satellite is in a GTO (geosynchronous transfer orbit). That orbit will be circularized into a GSO (geostationary or geosynchronous orbit) over the next several days or weeks slightly east of its final orbital longitude for testing, after which its orbit will be raised very sightly, which will allow its orbital period to increase every so slightly. That will have the effect of "drifting" the satellite westward to its final orbital slot, at which time its orbital period will be increased again to match the rotational rate of the earth.


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## capecodsooner

+1

:imwith: :gott:


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## RAD

LameLefty said:


> Not to pick nits (well, it IS the internet so of course we pick nits), the satellite is in a GTO (geosynchronous transfer orbit).


Thanks for clarifying, that's what I meant, just didn't say it.


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## dhowse

No need to monitor for a satellite signal on your receiver for a couple of reasons:

1. It's not in it's operational orbital location (and won't be until testing is complete)

2. I'm sure the transponders haven't even been turned on yet. Until the batteries are fully charged and all of the bus systems have been checked out they will not bother with the payload (transponders).


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## fade2black

I know this is weird.... but I was watching the tracking site, and if its data are right, the altitude is decreasing rapidly! Gotta be wrong, right? Almost down to 10,000 miles. I checked Direct 9s, and that info seems correct. I'm sure it's wrong but it's freaking me out!!! :eek2: 
Or are we really still that non-circular yet...

Sat guys??


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## RAD

Sounds/looks OK to me: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/G/GTO.html


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## fade2black

RAD said:


> Sounds/looks OK to me: http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/G/GTO.html


Yeah, I did some checking... this is why I don't do orbital mechanics for a living!


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## SubaruWRX

Thanks for the realtime tracking I will be sure to add it to my other programs.


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## lwilli201

It will be about 22,500 miles up when it is in perment location. It is only about 16,000 miles right now. It has a way to go. All future manuvers will be done by the SC internal propultions systems.


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## Dolly

lwilli201 said:


> It will be about 22,500 miles up when it is in perment location. It is only about 16,000 miles right now. It has a way to go. All future manuvers will be done by the SC internal propultions systems.


Thanks :sunsmile: I like to get my information here  I'm a dumb bunny about all this space stuff  All of you are a big help to me :yesman: :goodjob:


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## lwilli201

Does any one know if the D10 solar panels have been deployed, or when that is going to happen?


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## Blitz68

:gott: D10


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## Sixto

Would be interesting to see easy-to-understand posts with an explanation of what exactly happens once a satellite like the D10 reaches space until the time it goes "live" in mid-September.

Been posts of GTO and GSO, but would be nice to actually understand the process step-by-step in easy-to-understand terms. What status is the D10 in now, what happens next, how does it get into GSO, how does it boost itself around or does it just drift, how does it power itself both now and later, when does it expand it's arms and legs, how does it stay in one spot forever, how does it get the signals it retransmits. 

Easy to understand language of how this all works ... to fill the time until it's "live".

Edit: I volunteer to collect all of the posts and create a step-by-step guide.


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## qlanus

RAD said:


> Here's a site where you can track D10's location, http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


Here's some place where you can get software to watch ALL the world's sats.

http://www.stoff.pl/


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## twaller

Aw....c'mon guys, this ain't rocket science.............oh.....wait a minute......it is.

Sorry.


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## Dolly

twaller said:


> Aw....c'mon guys, this ain't rocket science.............oh.....wait a minute......it is.
> 
> Sorry.


!rolling :rolling: :lol:


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## VeniceDre

Multichannel screwed up the news of the launch in their DirecTV 10 article:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6458164.html?talk_back_header_id=6450841#talkback

"The launch comes after a rocket -- carrying the company's DirecTV 11 satellite -- exploded in January on Boeing's floating Sea Launch platform in the Pacific Ocean, dealing DirecTV's HDTV strategy a potentially severe setback."

We all know that was a Dutch satellite that bit it last January, not DirecTV 11.


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## purtman

You would have thought that they would have realized that Direct11 would come *after *Direct10. Can you say "oops!"?


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## MnGuy

purtman said:


> You would have thought that they would have realized that Direct11 would come *after *Direct10. Can you say "oops!"?


Funny, the link in that story to the news of the failed launch makes it clear it was not a D* bird.


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## syphix

MODS: Can we sticky this thread as the one to look in for updates on the D10??

(thanks, mods!!







)


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## harsh

MikeR7 said:


> I am sure that Harsh will have something really positive to say!:lol:


Only if someone with a high post count (or a handle named after a satellite) offers information contrary to all of the available authoritative information.


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## man_rob

After being over Africa for a day or two, suddenly the satellite has crossed the Indian Ocean, and is almost to the Pacific.

(Unless it is just orbiting the Earth, and I just happened to catch it while it was over Africa each time?)


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## oakwcj

man_rob said:


> After being over Africa for a day or two, suddenly the satellite has crossed the Indian Ocean, and is almost to the Pacific.
> 
> (Unless it is just orbiting the Earth, and I just happened to catch it while it was over Africa each time?)


It's the latter. It's in a geosynchronous transfer orbit now. It hasn't yet gone geostationary.


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## Sixto

oakwcj said:


> It's the latter. It's in a geosynchronous transfer orbit now. It hasn't yet gone geostationary.


Per post: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=997951&postcount=43

Would like to create a step-by-step outline of D10's 2-month voyage ...

Lots of help would be greatly appreciated ...


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## harsh

RAD said:


> Here's a site where you can track D10's location, http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


That's a cool page. I have to wonder about the altitude figure though. I would have expected that the altitude was much higher than 5,000 miles at this point.


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## scsweet

harsh said:


> That's a cool page. I have to wonder about the altitude figure though. I would have expected that the altitude was much higher than 5,000 miles at this point.


If I understand GTO correctly, the altitude varies from relatlively low to high enough to reach GSO. Last night it was above the ~22000 mi that the other D* satellites live at.


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## man_rob

What was it's initial altitude? From some brief reading I gathered that a geosynchronous transfer orbit is the satellite orbiting around the Earth, slowly climbing until it reaches the necessary altitude geosynchronous stationary orbit, and this is done because you don't need an expensive, large heavy lift rocket? Or is there some other reason for the period of geosynchronous transfer orbit?


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## scsweet

man_rob said:


> What was it's initial altitude? From some brief reading I gathered that a geosynchronous transfer orbit is the satellite orbiting around the Earth, slowly climbing until it reaches the necessary altitude geosynchronous stationary orbit, and this is done because you don't need an expensive, large heavy lift rocket? Or is there some other reason for the period of geosynchronous transfer orbit?


The best description of GTO I could find is on an "Encyclopedia of Astrobiology, Astronomy and Spaceflight" website that I'm not yet allowed to post the link to (it is the first hit if you Google "daviddarling and GTO"). I've been trying to find descriptions of the maneuvers required to go from GTO to GSO but so far haven't learned much.

Hopefully someone who understands this better than I do can chime in.


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## LameLefty

Sorry, it's a math-intensive subject that requires an entire undergraduate semester to get the basics just to where you really "get" it (it's counter-intuitive in some pretty important ways). The advanced stuff, like trajectories of interplanetary probes, etc., are all MS or PhD level stuff.

Anyway, for the non-mathematically-challenged, here's a decent link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_transfer_orbit


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## man_rob

Geosynchronous Transfer Orbits (GTO)

There are many rocket boosters which are observable in "transfer" orbits. These are the orbits used to transfer the satellite from an initial low earth orbit to the final orbit. The orbit used for transfer to geostationary orbit is named appropriately enough a "geostationary transfer orbit" (GTO). A standard GTO is an orbit which requires the minimum energy to reach geostationary altitude (A Hofmann transfer ellipse). The perigee corresponds to the altitude of the initial low earth orbit parking orbit, the apogee the geostationary orbit altitude and the inclination is usually the inclination of the initial parking orbit. At apogee the payload usually fires an on-board motor to circularise the orbit and adjust the inclination to zero.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/hattonjasonp/hasohp/ORBITS.HTML


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## LameLefty

Complicating all of this is the fact that the Breeze upper stage fired several times after the initial parking orbit (not just one long burn) to place D10 into its transfer orbit. That means, basically, that the GTO that's actually being used is not necessarily anything like the Hohmann transfer orbit discussed above - which typically requires only two burns - one at to raise the parking orbit and a second to circularize it. I'm not really sure why, from an engineering perspective, ILS designed the flight profile this way, unless it has something to do with telemetry windows (they don't have a world-wide tracking network) from their booster or wanting to be able to verify certain steps in the flight plan along the way. Another possibility (one that just occurred to me) is that the Breeze engine cannot run for that long in one continuous burn without overheating the nozzle(s?) or combustion chamber. Oh, another possibility: the bigger the change between the transfer orbit and the final orbit, the higher the Delta-V must be to circularize it. So by using several smaller burns from the Breeze rather than one long burn, you can reduce the delta-V needed for the final burn. Since D10 is performing that final burn and all subsequent ones using its own internal propulsion system, that might be a very important consideration.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, this stuff really IS rocket science.


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## dwrats_56

I am pretty sure I understand the GTO and GSO difference. My simple to ask question is, for Directv 10, what is the total duration of the GTO? Both in time and number of orbits.

Surely, somebody(a rocket scientist) out there has an answer.


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## Tom Robertson

Alas, the answer might be "What Boeing and DIRECTV want it to be." If FCC, NORAD, existing junk, telemtry, etc. were no object, Proton/Briz could have put D10 directly into the right location 10 hours after launch.

Cheers,
Tom


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## LameLefty

> Alas, the answer might be


That's true. Unless there is a "mole" here in the ILS, Boeing or DirecTV mission planning groups, we may never know the reason. In fact, there may well be more than one reason.

Anyway, if you want to track D10 with your own favorite satellite tracking app, the most-recent orbital TLEs are:

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07190.18445228 .00000813 00000-0 35280+2 0 30
2 31862 21.3440 299.3907 5774086 0.3773 358.7382 1.98615716 46

If I'm reading these right (and I may not be - I usually use a computer to do this!), as of the time these were generated by NORAD, D10 was only on its 4th orbit (very long period orbit, obviously).


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## VeniceDre

MnGuy said:


> Funny, the link in that story to the news of the failed launch makes it clear it was not a D* bird.


At least they updated their story now due to feedback comments:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/...841#talkbac k


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## dwrats_56

it is interesting (to me anyway) to watch the real time tracking that was posted earlier.

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


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## Drewg5

This is cool


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## flashfast

I just thought of a crazy idea: Why not give this bird a nickname. We could gather some cool ones, then have a vote on the top 5 or so. Heck, we've been following it so close since before launch that it has become like a special family member of the DBStalk nation. 
To get the ball rolling I'll nominate the name DOLLY. Any other suggestions?


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## John4924

Tom Robertson said:


> Alas, the answer might be "What Boeing and DIRECTV want it to be." If FCC, NORAD, existing junk, telemtry, etc. were no object, Proton/Briz could have put D10 directly into the right location 10 hours after launch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Does it look like to you that it could be moving to its final position? At the present time [5:30 pm CDT] it appears that it is right on the equator, and at the correct altitude?

I am with the others here, this is cool stuff and fun to watch the progress 

Cheers,
John


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## vollmey

As I watched D10 at work today (Most of the day). I thought you know what would be cool. If D* on D11 or maybe sometime down the road decided to mount a HD camera on a sat. and whenever we wanted to we tune to a certain channel just to see what is going on at 22,000 miles up in space.

Most likely not an idea that is very likely to happen but that would be kinda neat.

Anyways thanks for the tracking site, very nice.


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## RAD

John4924 said:


> Does it look like to you that it could be moving to its final position? At the present time [5:30 pm CDT] it appears that it is right on the equator, and at the correct altitude?
> 
> I am with the others here, this is cool stuff and fun to watch the progress
> 
> Cheers,
> John


John, it's gone north and south of the equator a few times already since launch and has gone south again, plus it's way too far west yet. Relax, it's going to take a few weeks to get to it's testing location.


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## P Smith

Now I get it - it's going to do almost full circle from Pacific to Asia to Africa then will cross US and came to the testing spot 102.6W.


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## oakwcj

RAD said:


> John, it's gone north and south of the equator a few times already since launch and has gone south again, plus it's way too far west yet. Relax, it's going to take a few weeks to get to it's testing location.


And then it will be a few more weeks until it's ordered to "drift" up to its permanent location.


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## harsh

dwrats_56 said:


> it is interesting (to me anyway) to watch the real time tracking that was posted earlier.


I'm wondering how accurate this model is. I was watching earlier this morning and the satellite was about 4,500 miles above Hawaii heading East. An short while later, it had changed direction and began moving almost straight up and a little to the Southwest. As I type this, it is passing relatively close (less than 200 miles) to Echostar 2 on its way to Echostar 1. The path isn't resembling anything close to elliptical.

It would be very helpful to see the speed in a vector format.


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## bonscott87

Strange this hasn't been posted here yet. I found it on AVS hours ago.

http://www.satnews.com/stories2007/4726/

Headline: DirecTV-10 Satellite Beams Home First Signals from Space

So things are looking good so far!


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## Michael D'Angelo

bonscott87 said:


> Strange this hasn't been posted here yet. I found it on AVS hours ago.
> 
> http://www.satnews.com/stories2007/4726/
> 
> Headline: DirecTV-10 Satellite Beams Home First Signals from Space
> 
> So things are looking good so far!


In the link it says D10 and D11 will launch this year. I know D10 is already up but I wonder if D11 has now been moved up again.


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## P Smith

bonscott87 said:


> Strange this hasn't been posted here yet. I found it on AVS hours ago.
> 
> http://www.satnews.com/stories2007/4726/
> 
> Headline: DirecTV-10 Satellite Beams Home First Signals from Space
> 
> So things are looking good so far!


That's a telemetry signals.


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## digitalfreak

KABOOM!


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## P Smith

Freak out !


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## LameLefty

harsh said:


> The path isn't resembling anything close to elliptical.


Yes it is. You forget that the earth is rotating under the satellite with a period of 24 hours. Right now, the satellite has an orbital period and orbital eccentricity (basically a measure of how elliptical it is) great enough to make a ground track tracing against a static map look completely bizarre.

Here's a 3-D rendering of D10's orbit and location as of 8:24pm CDT tonight, based on the current NORAD orbital elements published for this satellite.


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## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Here's a 3-D rendering of D10's orbit and location as of 8:24pm CDT tonight, based on the current NORAD orbital elements published for this satellite.


Very interesting.

So looking at that rendering, D10 is always going up or down as it circles the earth until it's resting place. Looks like it can get fairly far and very close during each 24 hour period.

Was just trying to understand this a little better by reading: http://www.howstuffworks.com/satellite.htm

Looks like the eventual altitude will be 22,223 miles above the earth.

Curious, so as D10 revolves around the earth before getting to it's testing location, are the arms of the satellite extended and starting to do any testing, or does it need to stay closed in a shell somewhat until it gets to a safer location?


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## LameLefty

For a little more perspective, this is a rendering of D10's current position as of 8:48 pm CDT as seen from a vantage point centered on 103 degrees W over the equator. As you can see from this rendering and the previous one, the orbit is still quite eccentric (elliptical) and the orbital inclination is still not anywhere near equatorial - once the satellite is in its final position, its orbital inclination (the measure of the angle between the plane of the orbit and the equator) should be 0 degrees.


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## Dolly

It is Rocket Science :rolling: !rolling :lol:


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## LameLefty

In case anyone's interested, here's where D10 is as of 9:34 am CDT this morning, viewed from a north polar projection - this angle doesn't show the inclination of the orbit relative to the equator, but it does show the eccentricity very well.


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## scsweet

It appears the the n2yo website shows the DirecTV 10 location based on a Two line element (TLE) description of the satellite orbit that is provided by NORAD and updated daily (the TLE and last retrieval time is listed on the satellite description page on n2yo). It looks like this:

1 31862U 07032A 07191.20346221 -.00000205 00000-0 10000-3 0 50
2 31862 021.3272 299.2787 5830764 000.4942 359.9115 01.94584818 62

The two orbital descriptors that aren't well over my head are inclination (in red above) that describes the angle of the orbit to the plane of the equator and eccentricity (in green) that describes how ellptical the orbit is (the closer to zero, the more circular). For a geostationary orbit both values should be very close to zero, as seen in the TLE for DirecTV 9s:

1 29494U 06043A 07190.52151172 -.00000109 00000-0 00000+0 0 1433
2 29494 000.0096 320.9358 0003018 148.9363 263.8422 01.00271709 2759

I don't know whether DirecTV 10 will go from GTO to GSO in a single step or in multiple steps, but until we get close, the TLE may be easier to interpret than the real-time location in terms of progress.


----------



## LameLefty

Um, have you been reading my posts? I basically said the same thing. The projections I've been posting are based on the current NORAD TLEs as of the time of the projection.


----------



## ScoBuck

Final entry to DirecTV10 Blog posted:

http://www.ilslaunch.com/blog/


----------



## scsweet

LameLefty said:


> Um, have you been reading my posts? I basically said the same thing. The projections I've been posting are based on the current NORAD TLEs as of the time of the projection.


Yes, I have been reading your posts and am sorry if I offended you. Your posts and projections have helped me understand all of this. The point I was trying to make was that (as you have implied) the "real-time" information that people are trying to interpret form n2yo is only as good as the last NORAD TLE data and that a simple way of measuring progress toward the GSO (and when IOT can commence) would be to look at the inclination and eccentricity published by NORAD each day.


----------



## LameLefty

I wasn't really offended. Sorry if I sounded that way. The NORAD TLEs are actually updated twice a day usually. But I made the 3-D projections because the ground-tracks are REALLY not helpful to understanding the orbits - the orbital period is too long and the eccentricity is too great. The earth rotates beneath the sat and the ground tracks just make no sense if you can't visualize the orbit.


----------



## scsweet

LameLefty said:


> I wasn't really offended. Sorry if I sounded that way. The NORAD TLEs are actually updated twice a day usually. But I made the 3-D projections because the ground-tracks are REALLY not helpful to understanding the orbits - the orbital period is too long and the eccentricity is too great. The earth rotates beneath the sat and the ground tracks just make no sense if you can't visualize the orbit.


Thanks.


----------



## Sixto

scsweet said:


> Thanks.


LameLefty/scsweet, good stuff guys!

Keep it coming ...


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Yes it is. You forget that the earth is rotating under the satellite with a period of 24 hours. Right now, the satellite has an orbital period and orbital eccentricity (basically a measure of how elliptical it is) great enough to make a ground track tracing against a static map look completely bizarre.


Bizarre as in the satellite moving East of Hawaii at 4,500 miles altitude at about 1,700 mph and suddenly turning upward (relative to Hawaii) at 1,700mph. It took less than an hour to travel 18,000 miles up. from essentially a standing start.

Maybe I just caught the burn to leave the parking orbit.


----------



## scsweet

harsh said:


> Bizarre as in the satellite moving East of Hawaii at 4,500 miles altitude at about 1,700 mph and suddenly turning upward (relative to Hawaii) at 1,700mph. It took less than an hour to travel 18,000 miles up. from essentially a standing start.
> 
> Maybe I just caught the burn to leave the parking orbit.


Probably not. Based on the DirecTV 10 page on n2yo the TLE used to predict its position is the same as it was this morning. I'm pretty sure that we won't immediately "see" the effect of the burn on the n2yo tracing

man_rob posted a link yesterday that gave a good example of how bizarre the ground tracing of a GTO can look. I've copied the example here:


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Bizarre as in the satellite moving East of Hawaii at 4,500 miles altitude at about 1,700 mph and suddenly turning upward (relative to Hawaii) at 1,700mph. It took less than an hour to travel 18,000 miles up. from essentially a standing start.
> 
> Maybe I just caught the burn to leave the parking orbit.


Not bizarre at all in 3-D, only on a tracking plot against a static map. Highly elliptical, long period orbits do that. That's why I've been posting 3-D renderings.

As I said before, the very basics of this stuff is a semester's worth of undergraduate work. It's not intuitive at all, especially if you're trying to visualize an orbit as a ground-track on a 2-D map. The earth is rotating at a constant rate but the satellite is NOT. The period of the orbit is more or less constant (over the short term of days or weeks, usually, neglecting things like residual atmospheric drag, thruster firings, solar pressure - yes, such a thing is a factor over the long term, etc.) But within that orbit, the satellite's velocity relative to the earth's surface and its position varies greatly. The typical NASA-style flat-earth and orbit track plot doesn't work well for orbits of greater than perhaps 12 hours in period the earth's rotation makes the data all but useless for visualizing the shape of the orbital conic section. It's really only helpful if you are trying to spot the satellite visually or are trying to track its radio signals.

Here's another representation showing D10's position as of 12:52 pm CDT today. View is from 103 west, above the equator. The reddish-orange line on the globe is the plane of the orbit, and the yellow lines are a prediction plot of the ground track (see the representative GTO plot posted for comparison above).


----------



## man_rob

The ground track seems to be, to pick a random starting point: The satellite moves over Africa, then makes a U-turn over the African west coast, goes back over Africa, moves across the the Indian Ocean, crosses over Indonesia, then over the Pacific, only to do a U-turn over the eastern Pacific and head back toward Africa. (I realize that the satellite isn't actually doing U-turns, but from the ground it appears that way.)

So is the plan to let it run in this geosynchronous transfer orbit pattern until it's path crosses at the right spot, at the right altitude and then direct it to, "stop here.", or are they keeping it in the gto while they test it, and once they have finished this task, they will send it to the right spot and park it. If the latter is the case, with such a wide ground path, how long is it in range for testing before it moves away again? Or, do they run the tests from various spots along it's path?


----------



## LameLefty

As I said above, in response to one of Tom's comments, unless there's a member here who is or knows a member of Boeing's, ILS's or D*'s mission planning teams, there's no real way to know what they're doing during the time it takes to achieve their GSO testing orbit, or why they're doing this over such a long period of time. I _suspect_ they're able to test most of the onboard systems of the vehicle during this time in GTO with the exception of the operational characteristics of the transmitters and recieivers: power, thermal conditioning, telemetry, command/control, etc. Once the satellite is at its temporary GSO testing slot, they can characterize the power of the transmitters, determine the appropriate configuration for the spot beams, etc. When that is complete a few days later they can raise the orbit very slightly to a greater than 24 hrs. period so that it "drifts" westward to its final slot, then lower the altitude to match a one-day period again.

I know they'll be doing at least a couple of burns and maneuvers along the way: the inclination has to be lowered to equatorial and the orbit has to be circularized so that the period is 24 hrs (+ or -, since a day isn't exactly 24 hours long after all), and that all has to be done so that the satellite reaches it's final spot at 102.6 degrees W (or whatever the testing slot is). That's called a "phasing" problem - to make sure that the vehicle is precisely over the correct spot on the earth at the time its orbit reaches the correct +/- 24 hour period, not too far east and not too far west.


----------



## Gary Toma

This is a link *HERE *to an article in satnews.com, advising that D10 has called home and is talking to the Boeing El Segundo development group. Very good news indeed.

The article also includes this comment:
"..._DirecTV said profits rose 43 percent to $336 million this first quarter from $235 million a year earlier. Revenue increased 15 percent to $3.91 billion. It added 235,000 U.S. customers, including twice as many HDTV subscribers in the first quarter of 2006_."

In my humble experience, an increase of 43% in profits is a pretty good performance indicator.


----------



## mhayes70

gct said:


> This is a link *HERE *to an article in satnews.com, advising that D10 has called home and is talking to the Boeing El Segundo development group. Very good news indeed.
> 
> The article also includes this comment:
> "..._DirecTV said profits rose 43 percent to $336 million this first quarter from $235 million a year earlier. Revenue increased 15 percent to $3.91 billion. It added 235,000 U.S. customers, including twice as many HDTV subscribers in the first quarter of 2006_."
> 
> In my humble experience, an increase of 43% in profits is a pretty good performance indicator.


Great news!!!! Thanks for the link!!


----------



## n3ntj

Tom Robertson said:


> Possibly. It is just outside of its normal location, you might get a blip--but, the receivers are likely told to ignore the transponders right now. So you'd need a Ka-lo band signal meter to see anything.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks.


----------



## n3ntj

fade2black said:


> I know this is weird.... but I was watching the tracking site, and if its data are right, the altitude is decreasing rapidly! Gotta be wrong, right? Almost down to 10,000 miles. I checked Direct 9s, and that info seems correct. I'm sure it's wrong but it's freaking me out!!! :eek2:
> Or are we really still that non-circular yet...
> 
> Sat guys??


Elliptical orbit initially.


----------



## man_rob

Is the ground path changing? D10 had been looping back over Africa, just brushing over the Atlantic briefly. Right now, it is almost to Brazil, after drifting westward from the African coast.


----------



## LameLefty

No, it's still in the same basic transfer orbit. They're apparently making only small corrections and adjustments to the orbit. As of this morning it's still in a very elliptical orbit with an apogee near GSO altitude, but a perigee of only a few thousand miles.

These renderings are of the current orbital position based on today's TLEs - the first is a polar projection showing how elliptical the orbit is still. The second is an equatorial projection at 103W (the final slot) showing how inclined the orbit is still.

The ground tracks are essentially the same since shortly after launch - what's happening is that the Earth's rotational period is not the same as the satellite's orbital period, so the ground tracks appear to move across the earth; a few days ago the "squiggles" were around Hawaii.


----------



## oakwcj

D*'s FCC filing indicates that the D10 won't be placed into its testing location until about August 17. What's the rationale for almost six weeks in GTO?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

oakwcj said:


> D*'s FCC filing indicates that the D10 won't be placed into its testing location until about August 17. What's the rationale for almost six weeks in GTO?


Length exposure to space, to make sure there are no other issues.

Before "bringing it in" amongst a lot of other equipment.


----------



## LameLefty

> Length exposure to space, to make sure there are no other issues.


Which is a summary of what I said, in post #96 to this thread:



> I suspect they're able to test most of the onboard systems of the vehicle during this time in GTO with the exception of the operational characteristics of the transmitters and recievers: power, thermal conditioning, telemetry, command/control, etc.


----------



## mnbulldog

I say we name her Dawn - as in Dawn of a New Age. 

mmmmm ... HD


----------



## Drew2k

mnbulldog said:


> I say we name her Dawn - as in Dawn of a New Age.
> 
> mmmmm ... HD


How about Heidi? HD ... Heidi.


----------



## P Smith

There are more considerations for bringing a sat to that semi-final GSO point : 'traffic' - you must have clear path for many turns, fuel consumption for the maneuver, ie for quick req more fuel.


----------



## Spanky_Partain

Drew2k said:


> How about Heidi? HD ... Heidi.


<= That's my dogs name!


----------



## Drew2k

Spanky_Partain said:


> <= That's my dogs name!


It was also the name of the first puppy I remember as a kid. Our dachsund named Lady had a litter, and the one we kept we named Heidi.


----------



## Diana C

Mid-August is when DirecTV will start testing...Boeing will test before that. It won't take 6 weeks JUST to get to GEO.

Also, the ground track seems to loop because the earth is moving under the satellite (at different relative speeds depending on altitude. At some point the apogee will approach the GEO target. A few orbits before that, they will start raising the perigee, so that it reaches a round GEO just as it arrives on station.


----------



## sat2631

It's been drifting for the last six days at an inclination of about 21 degrees but now it got moved to 14 degrees.

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07194.34383294 -.00000156 00000-0 10000-3 0 133
2 31862 14.6135 300.1535 4953083 359.9408 359.7613 1.75213280 02


----------



## bakers12

sat2631 said:


> It's been drifting for the last six days at an inclination of about 21 degrees but now it got moved to 14 degrees.


The eccentricity is very slightly less, too. Apparently, there's been a small orbital adjustment. I need a life. This is way too fascinating. :hurah:


----------



## MrDad0330

I am using the N2yo site to monitor the position of it but is there any way to know if everything is going ok, ie. i assume the solar panels deployed but it everything functioning at this point as it is suppose to? Also, it is far from being in a geo orbit, it is all over the place around the globe, is this normal?


----------



## Halo

MrDad0330 said:


> I am using the N2yo site to monitor the position of it but is there any way to know if everything is going ok, ie. i assume the solar panels deployed but it everything functioning at this point as it is suppose to?


Everything looks normal from the outside but it would be great if someone from Boeing could post updates. They won't deploy the solar panels until after the apogee burns.



MrDad0330 said:


> Also, it is far from being in a geo orbit, it is all over the place around the globe, is this normal?


It's still in GTO, so yes. If this launch had been by SeaLaunch (from directly on the equator) then there would be very little or no inclination. Instead of seeing the figure-eights we would see D10 going back and forth over the equator until the orbit was circularized.

Inclination is at 14.65 degrees. Still waiting to see perigee.


----------



## MrDad0330

Sorry, I just read all the posts...I should have been in here earlier to look at all the great info from your posts. I am beginning to understand why it appears to change directions, it is still hard to visulize but its coming...lol.. btw..I like Heidi for HD although D10 is fine too..


----------



## Halo

inclination: 14.65 degrees
perigee: 5117 Miles


----------



## LameLefty

As of about 9:31 am CDT today:


----------



## MrDad0330

I just sent an email to Boeing asking them if they could post events coming up for d10 and its current status...


----------



## Racer88

oakwcj said:


> D*'s FCC filing indicates that the D10 won't be placed into its testing location until about August 17. What's the rationale for almost six weeks in GTO?


The rationale is it will have a service life of approximately 15 years when it gets there vs. a much lower service life if they try to get it there any faster.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Racer88 said:


> The rationale is it will have a service life of approximately 15 years when it gets there vs. a much lower service life if they try to get it there any faster.


Seems to me that a quicker transfer orbit would have been possible with Proton/Briz than this. They wouldn't have to use the onboard propellant so the life span would remain.

I am intrigued by Earl's thought that they want to test as much as they can without the satellite being nearby other hardware.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Racer88

Not much they can test but command and control stuff until it is in it's licensed testing slot eh?

I think Earl's comments were more about making sure there isn't any control issues causing a potential collision in an already congested section of space. Not so much about any EM interference problems which is what you are maybe thinking?


----------



## sat2631

Now it's at 5.8559 degrees inclination. 

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07195.93998403 -.00000136 00000-0 10000-3 0 153
2 31862 5.8559 299.0695 2813820 1.1156 264.1136 1.38986111 03


----------



## LameLefty

Racer88 said:


> Not much they can test but command and control stuff until it is in it's licensed testing slot eh?
> 
> I think Earl's comments were more about making sure there isn't any control issues causing a potential collision in an already congested section of space. Not so much about any EM interference problems which is what you are maybe thinking?


As I pointed out a few dozen posts ago, they can (and I'm sure they are) testing command and control (which is probably quite complex), thermal control, power management and storage (which is also quite complex for modern spacecraft). Collisions are not likely - spacecraft are dozens of miles apart even in the same basic slots.


----------



## LameLefty

Based on this evening's new TLEs, the orbit now has a much lower inclination (as pointed out above), and is now MUCH more circular than before - perigee has been raised quite a bit. D10's been busy! 

Here are updated visualizations, both equatorial from 103 W, and polar (showing how much more circular the orbit has become).


----------



## John4924

I have been fascinated by the postings here concerning D10s orbit. So I did a little research on the TLEs [Two Line Element Set]. I found a couple of articles by Dr. T. S. Kelso in "Satellite Times" which answers common questions of TLEs...

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n05/

All of his columns are here:

http://celestrak.com/columns/

I am one of those geek engineers that loves learning about things I had NO interest in before July 06, 2007 

Cheers,
John


----------



## flashfast

mnbulldog said:


> I say we name her Dawn - as in Dawn of a New Age.
> 
> mmmmm ... HD


Good one. At least this discussion is in language I can understand!


----------



## LameLefty

John4924 said:


> I have been fascinated by the postings here concerning D10s orbit. So I did a little research on the TLEs [Two Line Element Set]. I found a couple of articles by Dr. T. S. Kelso in "Satellite Times" which answers common questions of TLEs...
> 
> http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/
> 
> http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n05/
> 
> All of his columns are here:
> 
> http://celestrak.com/columns/
> 
> I am one of those geek engineers that loves learning about things I had NO interest in before July 06, 2007
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Yep, celestrak.com has been a great resource for amateur sat tracking for a decade or more. I'm one of those (former) geek engineers too, but I learned this stuff back in college in the late 80's.


----------



## MrDad0330

This is the slowest speed I have seen it at.. 500mph. just off the coast of Africa.


----------



## ldmth44

All of this stuff is fine...BUT...I will be content when the bird actually goes live and I can watch the end result IN MY LIVING ROOM!!!


----------



## P Smith

MrDad0330 said:


> This is the slowest speed I have seen it at.. 500mph. just off the coast of Africa.


 It's for apogee, now check when it will pass perigee point.


----------



## MrDad0330

Boy ID, you got that right! I am watching its every move toward that 103 spot so the and get all that HD stuff down to me... Ahh that beer sounds good...


----------



## Drew2k

ldmth44 said:


> All of this stuff is fine...BUT...I will be content when the bird actually goes live and I can watch the end result IN MY LIVING ROOM!!!


I'm with you on this one. It's not exactly "wake-me-when-it's-over" for me, but I do check in to this thread all the time just to make sure there aren't any setbacks.


----------



## Dolly

Drew2k said:


> I'm with you on this one. It's not exactly "wake-me-when-it's-over" for me, but I do check in to this thread all the time just to make sure there aren't any setbacks.


Same here :righton:


----------



## mitchelljd

Drew2k said:


> I'm with you on this one. It's not exactly "wake-me-when-it's-over" for me, but I do check in to this thread all the time just to make sure there aren't any setbacks.


I am with you. I am not really interested in the little details, just want status update to make sure it is still going to get into place so we get our programming for the fall season in sept.


----------



## Smthkd

I agree!! Hey, what happen to the guy that was giving us the pictures of D10 position!! Any updates?


----------



## Drew2k

I think all of us voyeurs scared the others away! Come on back, guys with knowledge! We voyeurs will hide behind the curtains again ... just pretend we're not even here.


----------



## MrDad0330

That was LameLefty. Lame..come back, we loved those pics or the D10 orbit. I know it made me feel better...... As of 6:17PM today D10 was right on the equator below Hawaii...yippee...


----------



## Drew2k

Hey! What are they doing up there? At 5:56 PM ET, all of the New York SD locals went down! 

I'm just kidding that there's a connection between the new sat and the current NY SD local problem, at least I hope I am!


----------



## azarby

Drew2k said:


> Hey! What are they doing up there? At 5:56 PM ET, all of the New York SD locals went down!
> 
> I'm just kidding that there's a connection between the new sat and the current NY SD local problem, at least I hope I am!


Someone pushed the wrong button and DTV 10 crashed into SpaceWay2.

Just kidding

    

Bob


----------



## Tom Robertson

azarby said:


> Someone pushed the wrong button and DTV 10 crashed into SpaceWay2.
> 
> Just kidding
> 
> 
> 
> Bob


You can be put on vacation during the whole month that VOD is undergoing tests... Just kidding... Maybe... !Devil_lol !Devil_lol !Devil_lol !Devil_lol


----------



## Sixto

Spaceflight now says D11 in December 2007:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/tracking/

"On July 8, the Sea Launch consortium authorized the resumption of launches from its sea-based Odyssey platform"

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070711/68774703.html


----------



## John4924

Sixto said:


> Spaceflight now says D11 in December 2007:
> 
> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/tracking/
> 
> "On July 8, the Sea Launch consortium authorized the resumption of launches from its sea-based Odyssey platform"
> 
> http://en.rian.ru/world/20070711/68774703.html


Sixto, fwiw, they published an article a day later moving the launches back to October....

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070712/68821024.html

Don't know if that will affect launch of D11....

Cheers,
John


----------



## scsweet

Getting closer...

Space-Track.org now reports inclination 000.8805 (almost parallel to the equator) and eccentricity 0.0715327 (closer to circular). It doesn't look like n2yo has updated the TLE yet, but when it does the ground track prediction should be focused in a much narrower region around 120-130 longitude.


----------



## scsweet

John4924 said:


> Sixto, fwiw, they published an article a day later moving the launches back to October....
> 
> http://en.rian.ru/world/20070712/68821024.html
> 
> Don't know if that will affect launch of D11....
> 
> Cheers,
> John


The Thuraya-3 satellite mentioned in the article is slotted for October in SpaceflightNow (which still has D11 in December) so at least the info appears to be consistent.


----------



## John4924

scsweet said:


> Getting closer...
> 
> Space-Track.org now reports inclination 000.8805 (almost parallel to the equator) and eccentricity 0.0715327 (closer to circular). It doesn't look like n2yo has updated the TLE yet, but when it does the ground track prediction should be focused in a much narrower region around 120-130 longitude.


Cool...now if we can get lamelefty to post some new orbital pictures based on new information


----------



## LameLefty

Your wish is my command:

As per usual, we have renderings from a polar vantage point showing how much more circular the orbit is, as well as one from 103 W showing how low the inclination has become.


----------



## LameLefty

Just for perspective, I rendered the orbit using a different program - if nothing else, it sure is a lot prettier (and the celestial background is correct too).


----------



## Smthkd

LameLefty you are the MAN!!!:biggthump


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> Your wish is my command:


Looking pretty!


----------



## JeffBowser

Sweet. I see you are not lame at all, and I suspect you to actually be right-handed as well......


----------



## bonscott87

D11 is supposed to be the 2nd launch after Sealaunch's return to flight so if the first launch is in Sept/Oct range that should allow for D11 launch in Dec/Jan timeframe. More bandwitdh for more HD is a good thing.


----------



## LameLefty

> and I suspect you to actually be right-handed as well......


Nope. I am DEFINITELY a southpaw.


----------



## JeffBowser

Well, the cure for that is to turn around and look east instead of west....



LameLefty said:


> Nope. I am DEFINITELY a southpaw.


ok, I couldn't resist one more lame joke....:lol:


----------



## man_rob

LameLefty said:


> Nope. I am DEFINITELY a southpaw.


Sounds sinister to me.


----------



## Tigerman73

LameLefty said:


> Your wish is my command:
> 
> As per usual, we have renderings from a polar vantage point showing how much more circular the orbit is, as well as one from 103 W showing how low the inclination has become.


I don't know much....well frankly anything about parking satellites, but it looks to me like this thing will be parked and ready for IOT well before August 17th.


----------



## harsh

man_rob said:


> Sounds sinister to me.


How gauche!


----------



## man_rob

Tigerman73 said:


> I don't know much....well frankly anything about parking satellites, but it looks to me like this thing will be parked and ready for IOT well before August 17th.


Here's a detailed computer simulation:


----------



## KSbugeater

Sinister, gauche, two left-feet, left-handed compliment... see what we lefties have to put up with? I wish there were some way to cash in on the Politically-Correct windfall... make us a protected class, etc.

LL, that's Scorpio behind Gaea, isn't it? You're right, that is a beautiful image. Isaac Newton was a lefty...


----------



## D*HR-20

Well, to everyone who is left handed including me. All I can say is we are the only ones in our right minds everyone else is screwy and in their left minds.


----------



## man_rob

It used to be that left handedness was considered a sign of the Satan, and/or being a witch. Using the left hand was also considered a way of conjuring evil spirits, and thus deemed immoral. Because of this, left handers were often forced to hide their hand preference, and use their right hands.


----------



## LameLefty

KSbugeater said:


> Sinister, gauche, two left-feet, left-handed compliment... see what we lefties have to put up with? I wish there were some way to cash in on the Politically-Correct windfall... make us a protected class, etc.
> 
> LL, that's Scorpio behind Gaea, isn't it? You're right, that is a beautiful image. Isaac Newton was a lefty...


That is indeed the constellation Scorpio (or Scorpius) behind dear old Terra. Here's another image from just about the same vantage point and time this morning with the most interesting objects (besides DirecTV 10 of course!) labeled.


----------



## MrDad0330

It sure looks like D10 is just about circular (thanks for the pic LameLefty) and if anyone was watching today, D10 has been just a tad off the equator at about 130D most of the day and close to the 22800 altitude for geo. Looks to me like she will be parked very soon. August 15 seems too far away. Does anyone know if they had the big burn to circularized the orbit? It sure seems so. Does that mean they will deply the solar panels now?


----------



## Christopher Gould

man_rob said:


> It used to be that left handedness was considered a sign of the Satan, and/or being a witch. Using the left hand was also considered a way of conjuring evil spirits, and thus deemed immoral. Because of this, left handers were often forced to hide their hand preference, and use their right hands.


well i always heard the in the middle ages everybody did there bath stuff with the left hand, thats why you shake hands using the right hand.


----------



## JeffBowser

Tell it like it is - they wiped their arses with their bare left hand, aye. Lefty woulda had a serious problem, unless he is ambidextrous.....
:lol:

OK, another bad joke.....



Christopher Gould said:


> well i always heard the in the middle ages everybody did there bath stuff with the left hand, thats why you shake hands using the right hand.


----------



## donshan

Thanks to the experts here. I have learned a lot from this thread about orbits.

I noted that it is possible on the live link to plot two birds at the same time. Spaceway 1 is already in its slot at -102.81 and I have found it interesting to track both Spaceway1 and DirecTV 10 to watch D10 getting closer to its home.


----------



## LameLefty

A slight tweak to the orbit today - inclination is up a bit, eccentricity is down . . . I think they're phasing the orbit to ensure that when they finally completely circularize it at GSO, it's as close to the exact testing slot as possible (102.6 W, if I recall correctly).

So, today's renderings, polar and equatorial.


----------



## cb7214

you know with all the play by play everybody is giving and showing on this board every day we out to rename this thread:

DSTN

Directv Satelite Television Network

:lol:


----------



## CTJon

For those of us who can remember (and saw) ECHO1 this whole thing and orbatile maneuvering is just amazing.

ECHO1 was a big "balloon" lauched and was used to bounce signals off of. I believe it was the first communications sat.


----------



## RAD

CTJon said:


> For those of us who can remember (and saw) ECHO1 this whole thing and orbatile maneuvering is just amazing.
> 
> ECHO1 was a big "balloon" lauched and was used to bounce signals off of. I believe it was the first communications sat.


Boy, you're showing your age bringing that up (and yes I remember).


----------



## cforrest

I'll show my youth, what the heck is ECHO1? LOL!


----------



## RAD

cforrest said:


> I'll show my youth, what the heck is ECHO1? LOL!


As CTJon said, it was a big balloon, made of reflective material and they used it to bounce radio/tv signals off of. At night you could look up and see this big 'star' moving across the sky, it was really bright.


----------



## man_rob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_satellite


----------



## rahchgo

man_rob said:


> Here's a detailed computer simulation:


I love the animation. It seems to me though, that if those orange plumes are supposed to be manuvering jets, (like on a satellite, they are on the opposite side of where they should be.


----------



## Smthkd

I believe they are "turning signals" !


----------



## Ed Campbell

CTJon said:


> For those of us who can remember (and saw) ECHO1 this whole thing and orbatile maneuvering is just amazing.
> 
> ECHO1 was a big "balloon" lauched and was used to bounce signals off of. I believe it was the first communications sat.


It was aluminized mylar. I worked for the company that made the raw stock and dragged around a 60" wide roll of an end [maybe 50'] of the stuff for years. Finally got rid of it when it obviously was "old-fashioned".

Though Echo 1 was about 100' diameter, it weighed near 4 lbs..

Pretty snazzy stuff.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bonscott87 said:


> D11 is supposed to be the 2nd launch after Sealaunch's return to flight so if the first launch is in Sept/Oct range that should allow for D11 launch in Dec/Jan timeframe. More bandwitdh for more HD is a good thing.


One calendar I recall seeing DIRECTV11 as being the third launch, but that was a couple months ago. Currently, JPL has DIRECTV11 as April! But we'll start a D11 thread one of these days. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Smthkd

LameLefty whats the new position?


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> LameLefty whats the new position?


New TLEs today: orbital inclination is down to slightly more than 0.16 degrees (almost equatorial), and eccentricity down too: 0.0346 (very nearly circular). Altitude is still slightly under GSO at roughly 21,750 miles as I type but it's varying a bit since the orbit isn't precisely circular. Anyway, it's getting close.


----------



## man_rob

It seems it's ground path has become very small. While it used to go from the west Atlantic, over Africa, across the Indian Ocean, over the Pacific, it now seems to stay over the eastern Pacific, and stays very close to the equator. It also seems to be going quite slow at the moment, about 40 mph, (I'm guessing that is ground speed relative to the Earth) and very close (within a degree or so) to what it will call home. I do realize that it is the actual orbit that is the real indicator, but still the changes in the ground path are interesting.

Edit: It's now down to 9 mph.


----------



## LameLefty

Ground path is getting smaller and shorter due to the increasing orbital altitude and period - it's now taking almost as long for the satellite to orbit the earth as it does for the earth to rotate. The "angle" of the ground track (i.e., the size of the loops and whorls it was taking) is getting smaller because the orbital inclination relative to the equator is now nearly (but not quite) zero. The location of that ground track is a function of the orbital phasing - where, relative to the earth's surface, the orbital apogee and perigee are located. All of this is being coordinated to bring the satellite to relative standstill at GSO altitude right at the testing slot (102.6 W if I recall correctly), with an orbital inclination of zero degrees, or as close as possible to that.


----------



## VeniceDre

With all this info can we assume that D10 may reach 102.6 soon and begin IOT early?


----------



## LameLefty

I would say so - there's NO reason testing orbit can't be reached a lot sooner than August 15 even using the absolute minimum fuel necessary. I presume that date from the FCC filings had a lot of wiggle room built into it for short-term launch delays and any non-fatal glitches during the post-launch/pre-GSO orbital maneuvering. I would think they will at 102.6 GSO before Monday. Perhaps even by tomorrow if they really want.

In fact, I just checked and the TLEs have been updated since this morning. Inclination is up just a hair (still under 0.2 degrees) and eccentricity has been raised just a bit to make the orbit more oval - I believe these are fine-tunings to get the phasing just right for insertion into GSO at 102.6 W. No point in posting more renderings as the changes are minimal, visually, and the ground track is more or less the same right now. Per these new TLE's, D10 is at around 105.5 W and an altitude of 23,064 miles, plus or minus, and increasing fairly slowly.


----------



## MikeR7

LameLefty said:


> I would say so - there's NO reason testing orbit can't be reached a lot sooner than August 15 even using the absolute minimum fuel necessary. I presume that date from the FCC filings had a lot of wiggle room built into it for short-term launch delays and any non-fatal glitches during the post-launch/pre-GSO orbital maneuvering. I would think they will at 102.6 GSO before Monday. Perhaps even by tomorrow if they really want.


This all sounds very, very, good!!!:hurah:


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I would say so - there's NO reason testing orbit can't be reached a lot sooner than August 15 ...


Lefty, thanks so much for the thoughtful posts. Very informative.

I really look forward to every one of your posts ...

Thanks again!


----------



## VeniceDre

I'd be surprised if D10 isn't already transmitting programming just before Sept. 1st.

As per some pressers, such as History channel & TBS, a few channels have indicated they would launch their services with DirecTV on Sept. 1st.

They'll try their best to get it online by then IMHO. If they get it to 102.6 in the next couple of days they'll be ready if they keep to approx. 30 days of testing.


----------



## litzdog911

VeniceDre said:


> I'd be surprised if D10 isn't already transmitting programming just before Sept. 1st.
> 
> As per some pressers, such as History channel & TBS, a few channels have indicated they would launch their services with DirecTV on Sept. 1st.
> 
> They'll try their best to get it online by then IMHO. If they get it to 102.6 in the next couple of days they'll be ready if they keep to approx. 30 days of testing.


That would indeed be great news. Keeping fingers crossed!

And thanks for the excellent updates, Lefty!


----------



## RAD

The first post in this thread refers to a document sent to the FCC with dates in it. If Boeing does finish its testing early does D* need to go to the FCC and get permission to move D10 to 103 and start transmission or have previous filings taken care of that and they can just light it up?


----------



## VeniceDre

RAD said:


> The first post in this thread refers to a document sent to the FCC with dates in it. If Boeing does finish its testing early does D* need to go to the FCC and get permission to move D10 to 103 and start transmission or have previous filings taken care of that and they can just light it up?


Since it has always their intent to park it at 103 I believe all that was taken care of before launch in previous filings... The 102.6 filing was for temporary testing.


----------



## Dolly

Tom Robertson said:


> One calendar I recall seeing DIRECTV11 as being the third launch, but that was a couple months ago. Currently, JPL has DIRECTV11 as April! But we'll start a D11 thread one of these days.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I've seen some headlines saying D11 could launch by Dec., but of course it is hard to tell how accurate headlines are  It would be nice, if it could get done that quickly


----------



## BudShark

Does D11 getting up there in Dec. bring us anything? I doubt DirecTV has lined up enough LiL that they could fill D10 and start work on D11 that quick... and there just isn't enough national yet.

While I am all for D11 getting its lazy behind up there  - I think Dec, 1Q08, etc is a moot point with respect to services available... I may be WAY off base here though. (Happened once before - I think it was 1993...)

Chris


----------



## compnurd

D11 is supposed to light up a lot more HD locals


----------



## donshan

D11 is important to a lot of people around the country. There are 210 DMA television markets ranked by population size. With the addition of the LIL channel HD on D10 D* will have HD locals into about 75 markets plus the 100 national HD channels. 

With D11 they bring the local HD capacity up to 1500 channels which should allow LIL into all the 210 DMA markets not now severed by the D10 expansion. I live in DMA 125 and get all the four networks Plus PBS OTA, but we need D11 to get these HD locals from D*. The national HD channel capacity also goes up from 100 to 150, and although there aren't that many national HD channels yet, I am sure they will come in future years.

I have an antenna, but getting the HD locals on the satellite is important for D* to compete with cable, and some people in our area are blocked by hills from getting good OTA reception.


----------



## MrDad0330

I agree with you all in thanking LameLefty. I never followed a lauch to orbit like this and I learned a lot for all of you. Since it appears D10 is only a few minor moves until GSO, do you think the solar panels have deployed" that is the last thing I worry about, it needs that power from the solar panels. Does anyone know if that has happened yet?
Like all of you, I hope they can get it to 102.6 and begin testing and bring it onboard into our homes Sept 1st or a week or so sooner. This has all been so interesting....


----------



## MrDad0330

BTW, Does anyone know which D sat is broadcasting from the 103? That is where I am getting my locals from. Which sat is at the 99 location. Just curious...


----------



## sat2631

MrDad0330 said:


> BTW, Does anyone know which D sat is broadcasting from the 103? That is where I am getting my locals from. Which sat is at the 99 location. Just curious...


D* uses Spaceway 1 at 103 W and Spaceway 2 at 99 W longitude.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Right now Spaceway 1 is broadcasting from 103 and Spaceway 2 from 99.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Koz

I think what Budshark was saying about not having enough LiL's to need D11 for a while is this: Putting up a new LiL requires a lot more than just sat bandwidth. You also need to get complicated contracts signed and then uplink the station to the sat (and probably a ton of other stuff I don't know.) It's possible D* has done a lot of this up front and is just waiting for bandwidth, but Budshark is saying that it takes time to do these things and he's wondering if they'll even fill the D10 LiL capacity by the time D11 is ready to go.

Me, personally, I have no idea. Just trying to clear up a little board confusion.


----------



## MrDad0330

Why did D name its 99 and 103 sats Spaceway rather than Directv # ?


----------



## Smthkd

Because they we're orginally intended to be used by HUGHES NETWORK for HighSpeed Internet under a program called Spaceway but later aquired by D* and reconfigured for LIL HD!


----------



## BudShark

Koz said:


> I think what Budshark was saying about not having enough LiL's to need D11 for a while is this: Putting up a new LiL requires a lot more than just sat bandwidth. You also need to get complicated contracts signed and then uplink the station to the sat (and probably a ton of other stuff I don't know.) It's possible D* has done a lot of this up front and is just waiting for bandwidth, but Budshark is saying that it takes time to do these things and he's wondering if they'll even fill the D10 LiL capacity by the time D11 is ready to go.
> 
> Me, personally, I have no idea. Just trying to clear up a little board confusion.


Bingo... lots of logistics involved that I figure they won't fill D10 up in the 6-8-10 months it'll take to get D11 up. So while I admire getting it up early... I'm guessing its just gonna float around a while (although I'm sure they'll throw it some LiL love just so its not lonely...)

Chris


----------



## RAD

There is/was no reason that D* couldn't be doing all the infrastructure and contract work without D10 being operational. Then when D10 is ready they'd be already to go activating cities, same thing goes for D11. It's not like they've been busy adding new cities to SW1 and SW2 lately.


----------



## BudShark

RAD said:


> There is/was no reason that D* couldn't be doing all the infrastructure and contract work without D10 being operational. Then when D10 is ready they'd be already to go activating cities, same thing goes for D11. It's not like they've been busy adding new cities to SW1 and SW2 lately.


Oh I agree... I'd just be darn impressed if D* was anywhere close to turning on HD LiL for 200+ cities by Jan/Feb... thats all. Its not a big deal. The sooner they launch it and turn it on the better for us all.


----------



## Gary Toma

Smthkd said:


> Because they we're orginally intended to be used by HUGHES NETWORK for HighSpeed Internet under a program called Spaceway but later aquired by D* and reconfigured for LIL HD!


You'll be happy to know that Spaceway 3 is scheduled for launch in about a month -- August 14'th.

No impact here for DIRECTV though; this sat is specifically for use by HUGHES-NET, providing the aforementioned satellite internet service.


----------



## LameLefty

In reviewing the available documents on D10/11/12 and the basic Boeing spacecraft bus these are based on, it's not clear to me whether the maneuvers we've all watched over the last week or so have been performed with a typical chemical rocket motor or the XIPS (Xenon Ion Propulsion System) - which is a kind of electric rocket. It uses an electrical current to accelerate ionized gas. It's a very low thrust, very high-efficiency system. I think, given the amount of maneuvering that we've seen, that they must have been using the chemical apogee kick motors in the spacecraft bus. In that case, solar array deployment may very well not have occurred yet, the spacecraft operating on battery power. However, batteries are heavy and I don't believe they could power an ion system for a very long time (but I could be wrong about that).

I truly wish we had a DBSTalk "mole" inside DirecTV's or Boeing's mission management teams. I'd love to talk "shop" with the spacecraft designers and operators instead of speculating on some of this stuff.

(I used to be a spacecraft systems designer for a short time between college and graduate school).


----------



## Halo

Yeah, no way XIPS has been used yet. They are very low thrust and the maneuvers of the last few days would take very long using only XIPS. It's been bipropellants up until now, which means the solar arrays are still stowed. I guess they could go on battery power for a while but they are something like 4000 watts each, so that would not last long. 

XIPS are used more for station keeping. The older, less powerful ones needed to burn several hours a day but the newest ones are much more powerful. They do have the option of using XIPS for the last fine tuning of the orbit, which could mean a long time before it's finally parked.


----------



## PoitNarf

It's inching closer and closer according to n2yo.com. Maybe it will be at it's testing position in another couple of days?


----------



## harsh

donshan said:


> The national HD channel capacity also goes up from 100 to 150, and although there aren't that many national HD channels yet, I am sure they will come in future years.


Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


----------



## VeniceDre

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


Still more than Dish's Capacity Harsh.


----------



## dmurphy

LameLefty said:


> I truly wish we had a DBSTalk "mole" inside DirecTV's or Boeing's mission management teams. I'd love to talk "shop" with the spacecraft designers and operators instead of speculating on some of this stuff.
> 
> (I used to be a spacecraft systems designer for a short time between college and graduate school).


Can I digress for a second and ask what software you were using to make your renderings ? They look fantastic, and Mac-based to boot.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


But do both need to be up to fully support all 150 channels?  Or could there be other things planned...

Cheers,
The Riddler


----------



## GeorgeLV

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


I believe that if DirecTV is were to use the 14 conus transponders on each of those birds for HD at bitrates comparable to what is in practice at Dish Network, they could claim a LOT more than capacity for 150 HD channels. However, DirecTV also probably has some of the space reserved for future services (didn't they issue a widely mocked press release about an interactive dating service or something?)

Assuming D10 enters service as planned, I don't expect DirecTV to be in a situation where they'd have to shut off an HD feed for a sports subscriptions again for a very, very, long time.


----------



## Jhon69

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


Well once D11 is up and running and Directv needs more bandwith.I would just imagine that D12 will get the call to go up.Remember Directv ordered triplets.:group: 

P.S. Plus D9s is already up there also.


----------



## Halo

Launching D12 wouldn't increase their available bandwidth because the KA license slots at 99.2 and 102.8 will already be filled by D10,D11,Spaceway1 and Spaceway2.

Even though D12 is listed as a ground spare, I expect that it will be launched soon after D10 and D11 near capacity. None of the other sats in the Directv fleet could provide in-orbit redundancy if something happened to D10 or D11 (D9S does have KA capability, but nothing close to D10 and D11). D12 would also allow them to double up the signal power for many transponders, further reducing the effect of rain fade. They would also gain a small amount of extra bandwidth because the higher signal power allows less Forward Error Correction.

If they do need to expand capacity after 99.2 and 102.8 are full, I expect that their KA license at 101 would be the place. It would require a new dish (or at least a new LNB), and almost certainly require the SWM. The current 5LNB already stacks to 250MHZ-2150MHZ. I doubt they would want to stack another 500MHZ above that.

Directv10 is looking great. The next thing to keep our fingers crossed is that the solar arrays and antenna reflectors deploy correctly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Jhon69 said:


> Well once D11 is up and running and Directv needs more bandwith.I would just imagine that D12 will get the call to go up.Remember Directv ordered triplets.:group:
> 
> P.S. Plus D9s is already up there also.


Well, D9s is pretty limited in its ability to serve the home. Its Ka transponders are 250MHz wide! (S1's are 625MHz wide right now, the widest I've ever seen to the home, a Ku band transponder is 29MHz wide, IIRC.)

It will be interesting to see how DIRECTV expands next. D12 would need a Ka slot to broadcast from. All three DIRECTV has will be in use, tho 101 won't be to the home. But can the AT9/AU9 dishes serve both Ku and Ka from the same satellite slot, where does that fit on the stacking of the frequencies down to the receives, etc?

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


Or D* could be focusing on national HD content with D10, and D11 could bring more locals, (PBS HD anyone?) and 50 additional national channels.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> Understand that DIRECTV 11 is identical to DIRECTV 10 and as such, represents half of the "more than 150 national HD channels" of capacity. DIRECTV is claiming 100 by year's end, but some regular channels will have to be shut down at times to make way for higher priority (premium sports) channels.


Not true, remember D*'s doing 20 national HD channels right now so D10/D11 represent something less then 150. And that doesn't take into account the future conversion of the existing MPEG2 HD channels to MPEG4 with D* might also be taking into account for the 150 number.


----------



## RAD

When it comes to future capacity don't forget, both D* and E* have applied with the FCC to be able to use the same Ku frequencies for downlinks that they're using for uplinks which could provide a big shot in the arm for more capacity. I haven't heard anything recently on that request, has anyone else?


----------



## harsh

VeniceDre said:


> Still more than Dish's Capacity Harsh.


DIRECTV's projected capacity isn't as large as Echostar's existing capacity.


----------



## rrrick8

D10 is almost stopped. Down to 10 M/H


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> Well, D9s is pretty limited in its ability to serve the home. Its Ka transponders are 250MHz wide!


Can they do Ka from the same slot that they are doing Ku from a receiving standpoint?


----------



## harsh

Halo said:


> D12 would also allow them to double up the signal power for many transponders, further reducing the effect of rain fade.


As long as they don't share the same frequencies (and signals that hot are allowed), this might be possible. They can't double up on the same frequencies without causing phase cancellation.


----------



## BudShark

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's projected capacity isn't as large as Echostar's existing capacity.


Not to get into a mine is bigger than yours discussion... 

.... but there's a lot DirecTV can do over just launching these couple of sats. There has not been as many reports about DirecTVs testing of MPEG4 "squeeze" as there has of Dish's squeeze of 7-8 channels/TP. In addition - there hasn't been much talk about the "turning" off of MPEG2 SD channels and having SD subscribers simply watch a downconverted SD channel - (well Dish has discussed this at times - especially with the suggested all MPEG4 service)...

Anyhow - all these things open up a lot more bandwidth and capabilities going forward. My point is I think it is safe to say that both services will be able to offer all the HD channels we care about for the foreseeable future - and likely have plans in place for dealing with the point where the bandwidth becomes squeezed again.

Its just good that for the next 2-3 years we (hopefully) won't have to listen to capacity bantoring anymore.

Chris


----------



## harsh

rrrick8 said:


> D10 is almost stopped. Down to 10 M/H


Again, I wish they had some sort of vector representation on the speed. As I was just looking at the track, it was moving at 19mph but the altitude was changing at better than 240mph (1 mile higher every 15 seconds).


----------



## harsh

BudShark said:


> There has not been as many reports about DirecTVs testing of MPEG4 "squeeze" as there has of Dish's squeeze of 7-8 channels/TP.


Squeezing their existing HD bandwidth to MPEG2 might allow them to add five or six HD channels, but they would have to forsake the non-MPEG4 HD customer base entirely. It remains to be seen whether D* was counting on MPEG4 to deliver their projected capacity.


----------



## man_rob

rrrick8 said:


> D10 is almost stopped. Down to 10 M/H


It slows down and speeds up, but it is almost there. Soon dozens and dozens of channels with HD goodness will be beaming down to us.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Again, I wish they had some sort of vector representation on the speed. As I was just looking at the track, it was moving at 19mph but the altitude was changing at better than 240mph (1 mile higher every 15 seconds).


Just google for a satellite tracking program and input the TLE's. You can see the orbit for yourself if you can't visualize it in your head. Remember, the whole idea of a GSO is that the ground speed relative the earth's surface is zero.


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> Can they do Ka from the same slot that they are doing Ku from a receiving standpoint?


I've asked myself this question from two angles: 1) Can the do Ka from the same slot with the AT9/AU9? 2) Can it be done at all with a single dish?

My answer for #1 is I don't think so, partly in that the stack plan doesn't seem to permit for this kind of arrangement. Mediocre argument, I admit, but to me it seems telling.

As for #2, I suspect one dish could be made to support both Ka and Ku from a single satellite orbital slot (and still be within requirements for home use), but I do not know enough to be sure. I don't think the feedhorn would be a problem given the triple they have now for 99, 101, and 103. The LNB circuitry should be possible. But I don't know if the input waveguides can be arranged in one feedhorn.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

I downloaded a software called Orbitron, its free and can track the satellite in real time, like n2yo does, n2yo would eventually use all my resources and id have to restart the page. Go here for the software.
http://www.stoff.pl/


----------



## JeffBowser

I'd be very leery of trusting software from a Polish, or any Eastern European, source....



Ken984 said:


> I downloaded a software called Orbitron, its free and can track the satellite in real time, like n2yo does, n2yo would eventually use all my resources and id have to restart the page. Go here for the software.
> http://www.stoff.pl/


----------



## LameLefty

Back when I still used DOS and then Windows, I used a free program from the late Dave Ransom called STS Orbit Plus - it will still run under XP if you want to try it. It's very accurate but not terribly user-friendly. On my Macs I use either MacDoppler Lite (I don't need amateur radio control functions) or Starry Night Pro 5 (I haven't upgraded to 6 yet and may not). Both are capable of tracking satellites but they have vastly different target audiences and presentations.


----------



## VeniceDre

harsh said:


> DIRECTV's projected capacity isn't as large as Echostar's *existing* capacity.


Then why all the juggling as of late? Why are the HD channels HD-Lite now?


----------



## RAD

If you look at the total amount of transponder/frequency linceses and leases E* has now they probably do. But I prefer to not have to play the games of having two or more satellite dishes in order to receive the programming. I've seen one to many posts from someone that can't receive progamming from 129 or was pointing to one satellite and E* added something new to another and now they have make changes (IIRC the latest was an Ohio RSN that had it's HD channel added and folks can't get it without repointing a dish or adding another one). I also wonder how long all those Canadian leases are good for, you would think at one time the folks north of the border would want those back.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

harsh said:


> Squeezing their existing HD bandwidth to MPEG2 might allow them to add five or six HD channels, but they would have to forsake the non-MPEG4 HD customer base entirely. It remains to be seen whether D* was counting on MPEG4 to deliver their projected capacity.


Yes, of course D* will "forsake" the MPEG-2 HD customers. That's always been part of the plan.


----------



## Ed Campbell

harsh said:


> It remains to be seen whether D* was counting on MPEG4 to deliver their projected capacity.


Right. Pushing out the HR20's and discontinuing the HR10 was just a logistics exercise.


----------



## VeniceDre

We should have a party for Harsh when he becomes a DirecTV subscriber.

:balloons:


----------



## harsh

VeniceDre said:


> Then why all the juggling as of late? Why are the HD channels HD-Lite now?


Seems to be the industry standard, doesn't it?


----------



## man_rob

My bandwidth is bigger than yours!

Not uh! 

Whatever. Just be happy about all the new HD we'll have come Sept.


----------



## VeniceDre

harsh said:


> Seems to be the industry standard, doesn't it?


That used to be Dish subscriber's war cry... "Our HD PQ is better than your's"... Now you guys have HD-Lite and people have complaining about it...

Last I checked my MPEG4 feeds were full rez... look just like my OTA locals... Plus the Baseball games I see on MPEG4 CH 96 look noticeably better than their HD MPEG2 counterparts that sometimes show up on CH 95.


----------



## BudShark

Not that I am ever the voice of reason - but we probably need to quickly veer off the path this thread is going.

It is highly valuable for its purpose - which shouldn't be comparing D* and E* capacity plans or HD resolutions...



Chris


----------



## LameLefty

In an effort to salvage the thread before it goes off the rails . . .

(No new TLEs today so far, just another pretty picture)


----------



## moonman

D* is moving Spaceway1 just a tad, in order to test Direct10.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3322A1.pdf
It's only a few miles...don't know if they want to avoid "bumping" heads,
or avoid radio interferance while testing, or why they need to??


----------



## P Smith

Both things considered.


----------



## DIRECTV-10

Man - what a great ride so far. Hope you all are as anxious as I am to begin service.

From above..............


D10


----------



## Tom Robertson

DIRECTV10, hope the time lag hasn't gotten too great for meaningful conversation.  Glad you've managed to fit into your very busy scheduled a hiya to us here. Fly high, fly proud. And live a long, bright life.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## FHSPSU67

I would like to echo Tom's sentiments! It's been a great and interesting ride for this retired EE.


----------



## RAD

According to N2YO it's at 102.82 and speed is 0.2MPH, very close to it's 102.6 testing position. Considering the doc D* sent the FCC said it would reach it's testing location about 8/17 at least to me it looks like they'll be able to get things going by early September if not sooner, based on 30 day test period.


----------



## lwilli201

RAD said:


> According to N2YO it's at 102.82 and speed is 0.2MPH, very close to it's 102.6 testing position. Considering the doc D* sent the FCC said it would reach it's testing location about 8/17 at least to me it looks like they'll be able to get things going by early September if not sooner, based on 30 day test period.


It appears that it is going over 200 MPH, but it is slowing. Not sure what the .06 mi/s stands for. (At 6:45 CT)


----------



## RAD

lwilli201 said:


> It appears that it is going over 200 MPH, but it is slowing. Not sure what the .06 mi/s stands for. (At 6:45 CT)


Just passing what N2YO said, it has speed as 0.46mi/h
which I take as miles per hour.


----------



## harsh

RAD said:


> According to N2YO it's at 102.82 and speed is 0.2MPH, very close to it's 102.6 testing position.


Fifteen minutes later, it seems to be headed straight for Earth at 200mph. Just another in along line of apogees.

There is also the issue that popped up Tuesday where DIRECTV was granted permission to move Spaceway F1 over 33 miles to the West. Hopefully this is just a side thruster maneuver.


----------



## bnash972

It's coming. JUST got this email...

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR HD EQUIPMENT

DIRECTV is excited about the future of HD and looking forward to bringing you more channels.

In order to access future HD programming, you must have a B-Band Converter (BBC) module connected to your HD receiver. (If you have a DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR, you will need two BBCs.) Because current DIRECTV® HD channels do not require a BBC, it may not have been installed, but you will need a BBC installed by this fall.

If you haven't already checked to see if you need a BBC, visit directv.com/bbc for instructions and how to get a BBC sent to you free of charge. Don't miss out on a minute of exciting new HD programming from DIRECTV—check your receiver today.


----------



## RAD

harsh said:


> Fifteen minutes later, it seems to be headed straight for Earth at 200mph. Just another in along line of apogees.
> 
> There is also the issue that popped up Tuesday where DIRECTV was granted permission to move Spaceway F1 over 33 miles to the West. Hopefully this is just a side thruster maneuver.


DOH, was tracking D10 and SW1 and had the SW1 data up, dang not as close as I thought. Sorry.


----------



## loudo

bnash972 said:


> It's coming. JUST got this email...
> 
> IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR HD EQUIPMENT
> 
> DIRECTV is excited about the future of HD and looking forward to bringing you more channels.
> 
> In order to access future HD programming, you must have a B-Band Converter (BBC) module connected to your HD receiver. (If you have a DIRECTV Plus® HD DVR, you will need two BBCs.) Because current DIRECTV® HD channels do not require a BBC, it may not have been installed, but you will need a BBC installed by this fall.
> 
> If you haven't already checked to see if you need a BBC, visit directv.com/bbc for instructions and how to get a BBC sent to you free of charge. Don't miss out on a minute of exciting new HD programming from DIRECTV-check your receiver today.


They have been emailing this and calling customers about the C-Band Converters for months. They have called me twice about them.


----------



## morgantown

loudo said:


> They have been emailing this and calling customers about the C-Band Converters for months. They have called me twice about them.


"B-band converters" (i.e., BBC's)   . Just typing C-Band makes me think about those huge dishes of yesterday .


----------



## loudo

morgantown said:


> "B-band converters" (i.e., BBC's)   . Just typing C-Band makes me think about those huge dishes of yesterday .


Ouch!! My bad. I guess I just miss my 12 foot BUD to much, have it on the brain, I meant B-Band.


----------



## LameLefty

Slightly tweaked orbit again according to tonight's new TLE's. No major changes, however.


----------



## MrDad0330

They havent moved Spaceway 1 yet, it is at 102.82 and it has been given permission to move to 102.885. I guess then they will nudge D10 into 102.6. It is east of that position now as of 10:28am today. Look for Spaceway 1 to move which should signal D10 is ready to be put into its testing slot. C'mom D, move those buggers....


----------



## Smthkd

Updates Anyone??!! LameLefty! Do your magic babe!!


----------



## LameLefty

Nothing exciting to report yet - tonight's new TLEs are not changed much from yesterday's. Still minor tweaks to get phasing right at minimal cost in fuel, I think.


----------



## VeniceDre

moonman said:


> D* is moving Spaceway1 just a tad, in order to test Direct10.
> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3322A1.pdf
> It's only a few miles...don't know if they want to avoid "bumping" heads,
> or avoid radio interferance while testing, or why they need to??


I could be wrong but it looks like Spaceway 1 is moving to it's temporary location at 102.885 to make room for DirecTV 10 testing... It was steady at 102.82 last night, now it's at 102.83 and drifting at just over 5 miles per hour.

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=28644


----------



## Smthkd

I think your right!


----------



## LameLefty

Another minor tweak to D10's orbit - the inclination is down very slightly, as is eccentricity, but they are still in no hurry to finalize it in its testing slot.


----------



## RobertE

So who has the sign up sheet for transponder watch duty? :grin: 

Lite that baby up!


----------



## MrDad0330

Well, I hate to point this out but Spaceway 1 has been at 102.82 and 102.83 for the past 5 days so I dont think they have begun the process yet.. dang...move it and bring home D10 to its slot. 
Do any of you think we will be able to see transponders coming to life from D10 when they begin testing? Also, since it appears the major orbit corrections have taken place, have they deployed the solar panels? Once I know that has happened, we have passed the last deployment issue not to mention the fact without the solar panels deployed, D10 will die in a month or so. Any word on whether that has happened?


----------



## MrDad0330

it is moving at 4+mph..when it gets to 102.84 then I think we may have something. I seen it at both 102.82 and 102.83 at different times over the past days. The speed is interesting though...


----------



## VeniceDre

MrDad0330 said:


> it is moving at 4+mph..when it gets to 102.84 then I think we may have something. I seen it at both 102.82 and 102.83 at different times over the past days. The speed is interesting though...


Yeah it's been at stationary until this morning... That's why I pointed out the speed change.


----------



## Dolly

MrDad0330 said:


> Well, I hate to point this out but Spaceway 1 has been at 102.82 and 102.83 for the past 5 days so I dont think they have begun the process yet.. dang...move it and bring home D10 to its slot.
> Do any of you think we will be able to see transponders coming to life from D10 when they begin testing? Also, since it appears the major orbit corrections have taken place, have they deployed the solar panels? Once I know that has happened, we have passed the last deployment issue not to mention the fact without the solar panels deployed, D10 will die in a month or so. Any word on whether that has happened?


:girlscrea You mean we are still not out of the woods with D10 yet :eek2:


----------



## RobertE

While Spaceway 1 is barely moving, D10 has been trucking across the sky. Its currently at 99.3 and moving west at 300 or so MPH. Earlier today it was at 96 and moving around 400.


----------



## LameLefty

> Its currently at 99.3 and moving west at 300 or so MPH. Earlier today it was at 96 and moving around 400.


Ground speed is irrelevant.  All that tells you is that the vector relative to the ground is more perpendicular at this particular part of the orbit than at another point in the orbit.

Also, since all the tracking we do (whether via the web like a lot of you guys, or by a stand-alone sat tracking application) is based on Space Command's published TLEs which are updated every 12 to 24 hours usually, we are almost certain to miss the circularization of the orbit until hours after the fact, whenever it happens.


----------



## VeniceDre

MrDad0330 said:


> it is moving at 4+mph..when it gets to 102.84 then I think we may have something. I seen it at both 102.82 and 102.83 at different times over the past days. The speed is interesting though...


Spaceway 1 is at 102.84 right now!.. And the speed is over 5 mph again... I think they are slowing moving it over the course of the next few days.

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=28644


----------



## Teamfour

What is a LiL?


----------



## BobbyK

local in local.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LIL is Local into local. Where the providers resend local channels back to you via their satellite feed so you don't have to pick them up via air.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Ground speed is irrelevant.  All that tells you is that the vector relative to the ground is more perpendicular at this particular part of the orbit than at another point in the orbit.


Ground speed is completely relevant as the orbit comes closer to final. When the eccentricity of the orbit goes away, the ground speed is all that is left.


----------



## harsh

RobertE said:


> While Spaceway 1 is barely moving, D10 has been trucking across the sky.


Spacway F1 only needs to move about 30 miles, so it doesn't need to go particularly fast. They cannot risk interrupting the signal or there will be severe penalties.


----------



## dwrats_56

VeniceDre said:


> Spaceway 1 is at 102.84 right now!.. And the speed is over 5 mph again... I think they are slowing moving it over the course of the next few days.
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=28644


OOOPPSSS!!! it is back at 102.83... and the speed is < 4 mph.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Ground speed is completely relevant as the orbit comes closer to final. When the eccentricity of the orbit goes away, the ground speed is all that is left.


When the eccentricity goes away all that's left is a circular orbit - if the orbital period is not 1 day, it doesn't matter that eccentricity is (almost) zero, because the orbit will be too slow or too fast. As soon as it's adjusted at all, the eccentricity will no longer be that close to zero and you'll have a specific apogee and perigee again until the orbit is re-circularized.

Ground speed as shown on these websites is irrelevant because you have no idea where on a 2-D map the apogee or perigee of the orbit is "located" and ground speed (without a directional component) is meaningless. It will be different all the time until the orbit is finalized. I've explained it all over and over and you keep missing the point.


----------



## morgantown

I understand what you're saying Lefty -- keep the good info coming when you have the time.


----------



## VeniceDre

dwrats_56 said:


> OOOPPSSS!!! it is back at 102.83... and the speed is < 4 mph.


Yeah it's toying with me!


----------



## MrDad0330

Im getting bored with all this waiting. Spaceway is doesnt seem to be doing anything out of the ordinary and D10 just fiddles. It is more east than it has been, 94 now. I dont know if they want it there to drift in back to 102.6 but I wish something would happen..


----------



## Smthkd

Yeah, I sick and tired of waiting too! I've waited for 4 years patiently and now this last month and 2 weeks are the longest ever! I WANT MY HD DAGNABIT!


----------



## Aramaea

Up here in Alaska we need 2 of the 1.2 m dishes for HD. One with a 99/101/103 LNB Kit and one with a 110/119 LNB Kit. Are there any plans of putting the HD channels that are on the 110/119 satellite, so that it is accesable by using a single 1.2m dish with a 99/101/103 LNB kit?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Aramaea said:


> Up here in Alaska we need 2 of the 1.2 m dishes for HD. One with a 99/101/103 LNB Kit and one with a 110/119 LNB Kit. Are there any plans of putting the HD channels that are on the 110/119 satellite, so that it is accesable by using a single 1.2m dish with a 99/101/103 LNB kit?


:welcome_s to DBSTalk

Yes at some point the HD channels that are on 110 and 119 will be move to MPEG4 and either SAT 99 or 103. We don't know when yet. A guess from a few people on here is within a year after the new HD channels start.


----------



## P Smith

No, but new D10/D11 at 99W and 103W will have new HD MPEG-4 [H.264] channels.


----------



## CUIllini

morgantown said:


> I understand what you're saying Lefty -- keep the good info coming when you have the time.


I don't have a clue what you're saying lefty :lol:


----------



## Dolly

CUIllini said:


> I don't have a clue what you're saying lefty :lol:


You can add me to your group :blush: All I understand is that D10 is not yet where it is supposed to be


----------



## LameLefty

Dolly said:


> You can add me to your group :blush: All I understand is that D10 is not yet where it is supposed to be


At this point, that's all that really matters, isn't it? :grin:

Another couple of tweaks to the orbit yesterday and today - it's ever slightly more circular (and less elliptical) but the inclination is a fraction higher. They are doing this VERY slowly and deliberately and I'd love to get a definitive answer why. My guess is to save fuel rather than any complications with on-orbit testing, but who knows?


----------



## BudShark

They are doing it to annoy us... we know that ILS watched the site, we know that DirecTV watches this site, perhaps someone tipped off Boeing and they are toying with us.

Overheard at Boeings Control Center:
Engineer 1
"Heh watch this - I'll tweak it a bit and those guys at DBSTalk will go nuts..." 

Engineer 2
"Yeah yeah... now slow it down..."

Engineer 1
"Haha... yeah that got them... all right, lets hold it steady for a day and watch them pull their hair out cuz the bird ain't moving but its not parked..."

Engineer 2
"This is great! Too bad we're both on vacation next week and won't be around to watch them go crazy over no movement. Good thing we built a couple extra weeks into the deployment plan - gives us time to mess with their heads AND take a vacation!"


----------



## Button Pusher

Good one BudShark!!rolling :rolling: :rotfl:


----------



## mhayes70

BudShark said:


> They are doing it to annoy us... we know that ILS watched the site, we know that DirecTV watches this site, perhaps someone tipped off Boeing and they are toying with us.
> 
> Overheard at Boeings Control Center:
> Engineer 1
> "Heh watch this - I'll tweak it a bit and those guys at DBSTalk will go nuts..."
> 
> Engineer 2
> "Yeah yeah... now slow it down..."
> 
> Engineer 1
> "Haha... yeah that got them... all right, lets hold it steady for a day and watch them pull their hair out cuz the bird ain't moving but its not parked..."
> 
> Engineer 2
> "This is great! Too bad we're both on vacation next week and won't be around to watch them go crazy over no movement. Good thing we built a couple extra weeks into the deployment plan - gives us time to mess with their heads AND take a vacation!"


That is hilarious!!!! !rolling


----------



## Newshawk

BudShark said:


> They are doing it to annoy us... we know that ILS watched the site, we know that DirecTV watches this site, perhaps someone tipped off Boeing and they are toying with us.
> 
> Overheard at Boeings Control Center:
> Engineer 1
> "Heh watch this - I'll tweak it a bit and those guys at DBSTalk will go nuts..."
> 
> Engineer 2
> "Yeah yeah... now slow it down..."
> 
> Engineer 1
> "Haha... yeah that got them... all right, lets hold it steady for a day and watch them pull their hair out cuz the bird ain't moving but its not parked..."
> 
> Engineer 2
> "This is great! Too bad we're both on vacation next week and won't be around to watch them go crazy over no movement. Good thing we built a couple extra weeks into the deployment plan - gives us time to mess with their heads AND take a vacation!"


This reminds me of that exchange between Michael Keaton (Henry) and Randy Quaid (Michael) in the movie "The Paper":



> Henry: When did you get so paranoid?
> Michael McDougal: When they started plotting against me.


----------



## Reggie3

That was good Bud


----------



## Bill Johnson

BudShark said:


> ...we know that DirecTV watches this site...


Why would they do this? What would they accomplish? Would our posts have any effect on what they do? Would they try to get their views into our discussions? Or would they just be in a watch and listen mode?

I've sometimes wondered about this!


----------



## RAD

Bill Johnson said:


> Why would they do this? What would they accomplish? Would our posts have any effect on what they do? Would they try to get their views into our discussions? Or would they just be in a watch and listen mode?
> 
> I've sometimes wondered about this!


If you haven't yet, you might want to check out the "Cutting Edge" section in the D* forum. D*'s watching this site very closely while a number of us install prerelease software and assist them with testing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Bill Johnson said:


> Why would they do this? What would they accomplish? Would our posts have any effect on what they do? Would they try to get their views into our discussions? Or would they just be in a watch and listen mode?
> 
> I've sometimes wondered about this!


My guess is we're entertaining. 

Another part of my guess is that we represent a good source of feedback. Everyone wants some inkling of how they are doing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## John4924

Tom Robertson said:


> My guess is we're entertaining.
> 
> Another part of my guess is that we represent a good source of feedback. Everyone wants some inkling of how they are doing.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


There are definitely some "entertainers" here Tom! :lol:

Maybe we could get Directv10 to post some new information?

What say ye, Directv10...can you add to our entertainment during these dog days of summer?

Cheers,
John


----------



## LameLefty

Another day, another few tweaks of the orbit. The only interesting thing is how far east the satellite is now from where we want it to be. I'm not sure why it's where it is - I have a suspicion but it's hard to explain without the math and I haven't had time to check it out. Anyway, today's rendering is kind of pretty, even if it's not very instructive. :lol:


----------



## Tigerman73

LameLefty said:


> Another day, another few tweaks of the orbit. The only interesting thing is how far east the satellite is now from where we want it to be. I'm not sure why it's where it is - I have a suspicion but it's hard to explain without the math and I haven't had time to check it out. Anyway, today's rendering is kind of pretty, even if it's not very instructive. :lol:


My guess is maybe there's less stuff around where it's at and they have it there while they get it slowly pulled into position and once they have everything correct on the orbit they'll bump it up or down slightly in whatever direction it needs to go to let it drift right into it's testing slot. That's if the webpage showing the satellite drifting up and down and up and down is correct. You wouldn't want it to bump into the other sats from 99 to 110 as you level out it's orbit.


----------



## LameLefty

Tigerman73 said:


> My guess is maybe there's less stuff around where it's at and they have it there while they get it slowly pulled into position and once they have everything correct on the orbit they'll bump it up or down slightly in whatever direction it needs to go to let it drift right into it's testing slot. That's if the webpage showing the satellite drifting up and down and up and down is correct. You wouldn't want it to bump into the other sats from 99 to 110 as you level out it's orbit.


If you haven't read the entire thread, that webpage is merely showing a 2-dimensional representation of a 3-D orbit in space - the earth is rotating beneath the satellite at the same time (and in the same direction, in this case) as the satellite as it moves in its path around the earth. The period of the orbit is not 24 hours and so the relative motion of the earth's surface as compared to the satellite's position at any given time is what results in the "drifting up and down" depicted on that site.


----------



## MrDad0330

Ahhh.. I am drifting off to sleep. Not to long ago I couldnt wait to log on to see where D10 was and its progress. Now, nothing of interest is happening and Spaceway hasnt moved either. Oh well, Sept is coming but this was fun watching D10 but with its lack of progress, I just am tuning out...


----------



## Dolly

MrDad0330 said:


> Ahhh.. I am drifting off to sleep. Not to long ago I couldnt wait to log on to see where D10 was and its progress. Now, nothing of interest is happening and Spaceway hasnt moved either. Oh well, Sept is coming but this was fun watching D10 but with its lack of progress, I just am tuning out...


Well I thought it wasn't supposed to be ready to go with the Channels until mid-Sept? What do you want this is only July 28th


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dolly said:


> Well I thought it wasn't supposed to be ready to go with the Channels until mid-Sept? What do you want this is only July 28th


I want teams, yes teams, of people working on this round the clock with HD channels turned up, well tomorrow, of course. But I'd settle for "Hall of Fame Game" next weekend. :lol:

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

Tom Robertson said:


> I want teams, yes teams, of people working on this round the clock with HD channels turned up, well tomorrow, of course. But I'd settle for "Hall of Fame Game" next weekend. :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Get that SciFi and Speed channels up ASAP


----------



## John4924

Tom Robertson said:


> I want teams, yes teams, of people working on this round the clock with HD channels turned up, well tomorrow, of course. But I'd settle for "Hall of Fame Game" next weekend. :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


YES! I believe our own "New Orleans Saints" are in that game! 

However, I used to watch ALL of the games on the NFL Network in glorious HD on channel 95 last season. Did this not work in Salt Lake City?

Cheers,
John


----------



## MrDad0330

Dolly,
I know, I know, I am just like a lttle kid begging to come down stairs on Christmas morning and being told by my parents....wait a couple more weeks. What I think would help is if D would keep us posted as to what is going on, time tables, health of D10 and so on. I mean, they televised the launch and to a lay person..you think "oh great, its up and ready" Truth is it takes so much time to get it all positioned and tested but if it wasnt for LameLefty and some others, we wouldnt have a clue what was going on. 
D keeps very tight lipped on things like this but for some of us that are technically interested, it would be great to have them tell us more rather than have us guessing. Give me another piece of candy...lol


----------



## LameLefty

Another day, another update - more teeny tweaks to inclination and eccentricity but nothing exciting to report. Today's rendering is quite beautiful, however.


----------



## Dolly

MrDad0330 said:


> Dolly,
> I know, I know, I am just like a lttle kid begging to come down stairs on Christmas morning and being told by my parents....wait a couple more weeks. What I think would help is if D would keep us posted as to what is going on, time tables, health of D10 and so on. I mean, they televised the launch and to a lay person..you think "oh great, its up and ready" Truth is it takes so much time to get it all positioned and tested but if it wasnt for LameLefty and some others, we wouldnt have a clue what was going on.
> D keeps very tight lipped on things like this but for some of us that are technically interested, it would be great to have them tell us more rather than have us guessing. Give me another piece of candy...lol


:lol: May be that is my problem--I'm not technically interested. All I want to know is if D10 is "alive and well" up there. You know it didn't die or explode or anything awful like that. You can see the extent of my technical interest :blush:


----------



## MrDad0330

Dolly,
Im the same way but taking part in this forum has taught me a lot technically but I am far from that. I even sent a guy at Boeing a short email just to get some info from him but I guess I was too low on the feeding chain to warrant a response.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Another day, another update - more teeny tweaks to inclination and eccentricity but nothing exciting to report. Today's rendering is quite beautiful, however.


First thanks for your updates.

From what you have observed will a steady continued pace of "more teeny tweaks to inclination and eccentricity" be fast enough to bring D10 to its correct test location in the 19 days remaining until the D* scheduled arrival date of August 17?

Or is there still some significant short burst orbit transfer event still required?

For example, D10 has been steadily moving East vs. earth longitude. What do they need to do to the orbit to get the observed longitude relative to earth moving back West?

I am still learning.


----------



## Richi

donshan said:



> First thanks for your updates.
> 
> From what you have observed will a steady continued pace of "more teeny tweaks to inclination and eccentricity" be fast enough to bring D10 to its correct test location in the 19 days remaining until the D* scheduled arrival date of August 17?
> 
> Or is there still some significant short burst orbit transfer event still required?
> 
> For example, D10 has been steadily moving East vs. earth longitude. What do they ed to do to the orbit to get the observed longitude relative to earth moving back West?
> 
> I am still learning.


I belive that that once the orbit has been circular, the orbit chosen will have to be a LITTLE higher than the operating orbit so the satillite will be t the chosen spot. Then the orbit will be lowered to it's nominal operating orbit.:sure: :sure:


----------



## dwrats_56

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3445A1.txt

It looks like D10 testing has been given a special dispensation to begin testing a week earlier than originally requested. Testing begins August 10.:hurah:


----------



## Steve Robertson

Sweet


----------



## greenwave

dwrats_56 said:


> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3445A1.txt
> 
> It looks like D10 testing has been given a special dispensation to begin testing a week earlier than originally requested. Testing begins August 10.:hurah:


Excellent, that's my birthday. How long is testing?


----------



## krock918316

Light that baby up!!!


----------



## MrDad0330

Thats great news! I was wondering how they would begin all the new HD channels in early Sept if they needed 30 days from its original parking date of Aug 17th.. I CANT wait.


----------



## VeniceDre

dwrats_56 said:


> http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3445A1.txt
> 
> It looks like D10 testing has been given a special dispensation to begin testing a week earlier than originally requested. Testing begins August 10.:hurah:


Good find, looks like DirecTV 10 will start testing the weekend after this coming one.


----------



## Dolly

MrDad0330 said:


> Thats great news! I was wondering how they would begin all the new HD channels in early Sept if they needed 30 days from its original parking date of Aug 17th.. I CANT wait.


Now there is some news that even I can understand  I'm glad you got your update MrDad0330 :sunsmile:


----------



## JLucPicard

Is this manuvering/control testing, etc. or actual signal beaming testing? Just control/manuvering, right?


----------



## morgantown

Well, let the next debate start...will they use all 30 days to test -- or finish testing "early." 

I'd sure like to have the opportunity to have at least one day/evening of Labor Day weekend to be a HD couch potato! I imagine that is pushing things a bit -- but it'd be nice.

I do not recall, did the hand over from Boeing to DTV occur already -- or is it still to come?


----------



## ScoBuck

To the best of my recollection - Boeing doesn't turn these things over until they are fully tested and in final GEO orbit.


----------



## Tom Robertson

And to follow-up with Scobuck's report, while _ownership_ of the satellite transferred to DIRECTV at the moment ILS intentionally lit the engines of the launch vehicle, Boeing is still under contract at this time to fully test and deploy the satellite. Then, presumably DIRECTV will run some of their tests (mostly of their procedures, I expect) and we'll magically have HD. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

Tom Robertson said:


> at the moment ILS *intentionally* lit the engines of the launch vehicle
> Cheers,
> Tom


might they do it by accident? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

houskamp said:


> might they do it by accident? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


no, but ownership does not transfer if an accident causes an engine to prematurely go boom... 

In the case of what happened with Sealaunches failure, the engine was ignited intentionally. The boom was an extra _feature_. Had it been a DIRECTV bird, they would have taken the hit   
(I think DIRECTV does insure the launch phase.)
But D10 launched safely, is flying pretty, ahead of schedule, all is great!   

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> no, but ownership does not transfer if an accident causes an engine to prematurely go boom...
> 
> In the case of what happened with Sealaunches failure, the engine was ignited intentionally. The boom was an extra _feature_. Had it been a DIRECTV bird, they would have taken the hit
> (I think DIRECTV does insure the launch phase.)
> But D10 launched safely, is flying pretty, ahead of schedule, all is great!
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Looking at D* last annual report they said they insure launches but not in orbit failures.


----------



## khoyme

JLucPicard said:


> Is this manuvering/control testing, etc. or actual signal beaming testing? Just control/manuvering, right?


Given that the FCC decision involved both C and Ku bands, doesn't that imply some testing of the signals? Ka isn't mentioned, though.

I would assume that since Boeing built both the control system and the payload system, the checkout would involve both. But any DirecTV-specific content and payload control software would likely be after handoff to the D* crew.


----------



## harsh

Tom Robertson said:


> And to follow-up with Scobuck's report, while _ownership_ of the satellite transferred to DIRECTV at the moment ILS intentionally lit the engines of the launch vehicle, Boeing is still under contract at this time to fully test and deploy the satellite.


In what peculiar way does this mesh with the "Delivered on Ground" terms of D10-12?


----------



## Tom Robertson

harsh said:


> In what peculiar way does this mesh with the "Delivered on Ground" terms of D10-12?


In the redacted contracts found on the FCC site, those terms are somewhat spelled out: DOG in this case meant ownership is transfered at the point of "intentional ignition" or in a few other clauses if DIRECTV suddenly decided to mothball a satellite which apply to D12, I bet.

But that didn't end the terms of service for Boeing for the satellites. In fact there are some terms that cover (via warranty) almost the whole expected life of the satellite--but that is mostly redacted. (Drats!) 

Does that make more sense?
Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> Looking at D* last annual report they said they insure launches but not in orbit failures.


Thanks, RAD. That is what I thought, but wasn't sure enough to post.



khoyme said:


> Given that the FCC decision involved both C and Ku bands, doesn't that imply some testing of the signals? Ka isn't mentioned, though.
> 
> I would assume that since Boeing built both the control system and the payload system, the checkout would involve both. But any DirecTV-specific content and payload control software would likely be after handoff to the D* crew.


Not only did Boeing build the satellites and the command and control facility, but they also built the broadcast centers, as I understand things. Now, the broadcast centers have likely been tested by S1 and S2, but maybe some portions are being tested now as D10 nears home port.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## wilmot3

the sat. isn't at 99 why am i showing a signal on transponder 1, it is low 15 or so ?? I received an update early this morning on my h20-100 could that have anything to do with it??


----------



## FHSPSU67

wilmot3 said:


> the sat. isn't at 99 why am i showing a signal on transponder 1, it is low 15 or so ?? I received an update early this morning on my h20-100 could that have anything to do with it??


Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2 are at 99 and 103 (not sure which is which) and are broadcasting locals.


----------



## wilmot3

ok I never had any signal there till i got the update, thanks for the reply


----------



## Tom Robertson

Spaceway 1 is at 103° and Spaceway 2 is at at 99°. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Dolly

Tom Robertson said:


> Spaceway 1 is at 103° and Spaceway 2 is at at 99°.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I'm I correct in thinking they are now where they are supposed to be? I hope all of you don't mind me in these threads because I can't even understand half of what is being said   I need a Smilie for stupid or dumb :blush:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Yes, the Spaceways are _mostly_ in their correct position. To allow D10 a bit more elbow room during testing, Spaceway 1 is nudging over just a tiny bit, then will likely move back. Kinda like moving cars around in the driveway to let someone in or out. 

And Dolly, you are a tease, but not dumb or stupid. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Dolly

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, the Spaceways are _mostly_ in their correct position. To allow D10 a bit more elbow room during testing, Spaceway 1 is nudging over just a tiny bit, then will likely move back. Kinda like moving cars around in the driveway to let someone in or out.
> 
> And Dolly, you are a tease, but not dumb or stupid.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom  But trust me when it comes to topics like these I really am dumb and stupid  Nice comparison with the cars--that I can understand :sunsmile:


----------



## FHSPSU67

Tom Robertson said:


> Spaceway 1 is at 103° and Spaceway 2 is at at 99°.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks, Tom! Now I just have to remember that they're backwards:grin:


----------



## Tom Robertson

FHSPSU67 said:


> Thanks, Tom! Now I just have to remember that they're backwards:grin:


That's exactly what I do. Thankfully, DIRECTV is consistent with D10 and D11. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hombresoto

Tom Robertson said:


> Possibly. It is just outside of its normal location, you might get a blip--but, the receivers are likely told to ignore the transponders right now. So you'd need a Ka-lo band signal meter to see anything.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I'll have to hookup my accutrak III and see if i'm getting anything on ka-low


----------



## Tom Robertson

hombresoto said:


> I'll have to hookup my accutrak III and see if i'm getting anything on ka-low


We will eagerly be waiting for your posts! 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## MikeR

I'm addicted to HD & tech gadgets...now hopefully China doesn't decide to compete with Directv.:eek2:


----------



## Ed Campbell

Warms the cockles of your heart to see tax dollars being consistently wasted.

Meanwhile, tune to CCTV9 - ch.455 - at 6PM EDT and watch the only business news program where the reporters can't contain themselves from smiling.

China is _on_ DirecTV.


----------



## Teronzhul

I installed a Slimline this morning. There was no Ka-Lo signal or I might have passed out. 

I have another hd install scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. Not sure about the rest of the week yet, but the moment I have a chance after I see a Ka-Lo signal I'll make sure to come post.


----------



## John4924

Teronzhul said:


> I installed a Slimline this morning. There was no Ka-Lo signal or I might have passed out.
> 
> I have another hd install scheduled for tomorrow afternoon. Not sure about the rest of the week yet, but the moment I have a chance after I see a Ka-Lo signal I'll make sure to come post.


OK, for those of us [like myself] that do not know any better, what is the significance of receiving Ka-Lo signal? Will this be something unique to Directv 10 and we will know that it is fired up in preparation for beaming all of this new HD? 

Thanks and cheers,
John


----------



## Ken984

Yes Ka-Lo will be coming from D10 at 103.


----------



## mx6bfast

Does that mean that SW 1 & 2 are Ka-Hi?


----------



## d max82

mx6bfast said:


> Does that mean that SW 1 & 2 are Ka-Hi?


Correct, hence the fact that you don't need the B band converters at this point.


----------



## Tom Robertson

mx6bfast said:


> Does that mean that SW 1 & 2 are Ka-Hi?


S1 and S2 have transponders for Ka-lo, but they are used for backhauling locals to the broadcast centers. D10 and D11 will be the workhorses for Ka-lo to the home.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## lbostons

Will the Ka-Hi sats eventually be changed over to Ka-Lo to transmit Mpeg4 or is that even possible? If not is it a hardware or software issue, I would assume hardware. If this has been covered previously I apologize, just trying to stay educated. Thanks


----------



## Tom Robertson

lbostons said:


> Will the Ka-Hi sats eventually be changed over to Ka-Lo to transmit Mpeg4 or is that even possible? If not is it a hardware or software issue, I would assume hardware. If this has been covered previously I apologize, just trying to stay educated. Thanks


I am pretty certain the satellite transponders are tuned to a frequency range and as such very unlikely to be adjustable from Ka-hi to Ka-lo and vice versa.

Now, as to channels, we already know DIRECTV can and will move content from one place to another as needed.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## lbostons

I sort of thought that it was a hardware issue, b/c if it was not then I am sure that the switch would already be taking place. Thanks for the information Tom.


----------



## mx6bfast

This is gonna be dumb, but what is the difference in KA-Hi and Lo? Does it have to do with the frequency?


----------



## Tom Robertson

mx6bfast said:


> This is gonna be dumb, but what is the difference in KA-Hi and Lo? Does it have to do with the frequency?


Not dumb, just ignorant (meant a good way, we can't all know everything) and you are asking to learn. Pretty smart if you asked me. 

Ka-hi and Ka-lo are the two 500MHz frequency ranges dedicated to direct to home satellite use. (The original DBS frequency range is a single 500MHz block at each satellite location.)

Shameless plug: my thread on Ka and DIRECTV http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## mx6bfast

Tom Robertson said:


> Not dumb, just ignorant (meant a good way, we can't all know everything) and you are asking to learn. Pretty smart if you asked me.
> 
> Ka-hi and Ka-lo are the two 500MHz frequency ranges dedicated to direct to home satellite use. (The original DBS frequency range is a single 500MHz block at each satellite location.)
> 
> Shameless plug: my thread on Ka and DIRECTV http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=82295
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the link. I'll read it when I get home tonight when it's not as busy as I am at work. Yet I still have time to browse dbstalk. I mean to say where I can't be interrupted. :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

mx6bfast said:


> Thanks for the link. I'll read it when I get home tonight when it's not as busy as I am at work. Yet I still have time to browse dbstalk. I mean to say where I can't be interrupted. :lol:


I fully understand. That thread is not one of the light ones. And if you follow any of the links, be prepared to jump head first into an all niter. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Tom Robertson said:


> I fully understand. That thread is not one of the light ones. And if you follow any of the links, be prepared to jump head first into an all niter.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks Tom.

Lots of great info in those posts. Cool stuff.


----------



## dwrats_56

HEY!!! Spaceway 1 is at 102.85. It has moved .02 this week.


----------



## VeniceDre

dwrats_56 said:


> HEY!!! Spaceway 1 is at 102.85. It has moved .02 this week.


It's at 102.86 now... just .025 degrees to go.


----------



## Smthkd

Nice! So on with parking D10 and start the testing process!! Woohoo!


----------



## VeniceDre

I don't know how this works but it looks like D10 has been slowly moving east again... It was in the low 90's for awhile, now it's at just about 96 degrees.


----------



## EVAC41

Sixto said:


> Edit3: *Real-time location of D10 (cool!):* http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


You are right this is Cool...


----------



## Tigerman73

VeniceDre said:


> I don't know how this works but it looks like D10 has been slowly moving east again... It was in the low 90's for awhile, now it's at just about 96 degrees.


It's beginning it's march towards the IOT slot, at it's current pace it'll be about around Monday or Tuesday the way I'm looking at it.


----------



## krock918316

Has lefty updated us in a while? Does any one know if they have circularized (I think that is the word I am looking for )the orbit yet? 

Is it actually moving towards it's spot, or is it still in a transition orbit.


----------



## oakwcj

VeniceDre said:


> I don't know how this works but it looks like D10 has been slowly moving east again... It was in the low 90's for awhile, now it's at just about 96 degrees.


That would be WEST, which is a good thing. It's moving west at about .75 degree per day. Also a good thing.


----------



## EaglePC

What if it blows up


----------



## John4924

oakwcj said:


> That would be WEST, which is a good thing. It's moving west at about .75 degree per day. Also a good thing.


But look where it is now [@ 6:00 am] 92.83 

Have to believe they are doing final tweaks to get to correct testing spot. 

And at least the orbit and period is close enough that it is staying around the middle of the USA. That has to be a good thing! 

Cheers,
John


----------



## John4924

EaglePC said:


> What if it blows up


Eagle, only good vibes here, please!


----------



## Tigerman73

Here's the latest numbers on D*10 updated as of yesterday evening:

Two Line Element Set (TLE): 


1 31862U 07032A 07214.22374122 .00000000 00000-0 10000-3 0 455
2 31862 000.1572 292.4900 0173109 011.2101 353.3463 01.00076506 13


----------



## purtman

Tigerman73 said:


> Here's the latest numbers on D*10 updated as of yesterday evening:
> 
> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07214.22374122 .00000000 00000-0 10000-3 0 455
> 2 31862 000.1572 292.4900 0173109 011.2101 353.3463 01.00076506 13


In layman's terms, what do these mean?


----------



## Steve Robertson

purtman said:


> In layman's terms, what do these mean?


Thanks for asking because I have no clue


----------



## John4924

Steve Robertson said:


> Thanks for asking because I have no clue


See my post from earlier in this thread.....

Two Line Element Sets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been fascinated by the postings here concerning D10s orbit. So I did a little research on the TLEs [Two Line Element Set]. I found a couple of articles by Dr. T. S. Kelso in "Satellite Times" which answers common questions of TLEs...

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n05/

All of his columns are here:

http://celestrak.com/columns/

I am one of those geek engineers that loves learning about things I had NO interest in before July 06, 2007

Cheers,
John


----------



## MattG

If you zoom all the way in on this map:

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

You'll see that it is definitely moving west.


----------



## bakers12

All these little movements East or West are of no importance because D10 is not in a geostationary orbit. The movements you are monitoring are based on where D10 is above the Earth, but we already know that position is not constant.


----------



## Ken984

The main number to look at is the eccentricity, that is how far from circular the orbit is. When its at 0.00000 then things start to get interesting. it has gone from 0.03xxxx this week to 0.0173109 this morning, so it is getting there. It will continue to drift east and west till they get the eccentricity to 0. Or I could be over simplifying it and if so I hope Lefty will chime in and correct me.

1 31862U 07032A 07214.22374122 .00000000 00000-0 10000-3 0 455
2 31862 000.1572 292.4900 0173109 011.2101 353.3463 01.00076506 13


----------



## bakers12

When the eccentricity gets closer to zero (it looks like we need at least a few leading zeros on the number), that means the orbit is circular and not oval. What I can't tell from the TLE numbers is how high up D10 is. Even with a circular orbit, if you're not at the right altitude (about 22,220 miles IIRC) there will still be drift.

www.n2yo.com can give you a good idea of the altitiude. Not to beat a dead horse, but the altitude will keep changing until the eccentricty is zero. Since it's close to zero, the altitude is becoming a little more constant.

Another interesting number is the one that is currently 000.1572 - two numbers to the left of the eccentricity. This is the angle of the orbit with respect to the equator. This number will also get a little closer to zero for a geostationary orbit.


----------



## JohnH

Bet they are not happy with that inclination figure. Takes a lot of fuel to correct that and starting life with that much is not good.


----------



## wilmot3

I would like to know on the tracking web page in the real time position what does the abbreviations mean (RA, DEC)


----------



## Ken984

Here is some more info from the program I am suing to watch the sat, little more detail in here than on the web page and I do not understand a lot of it but its cool to watch and compare its values to Sapceway 1 since they should be fairly similar when its in position.

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-02 05:22:11
Orbit # at Epoch	1
Inclination	0.157
RA of A. Node	292.490
Eccentricity	0.0173109
Argument of Perigee	11.210
Revs per day	1.00076506
Period	23h 58m 53s (1438.88 min)
Semi-major axis	42 220 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 111 x 36 572 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	353.346
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	45 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Last Month Launches


----------



## bakers12

The "Perigee x Apogee" is something to watch. As the eccentricity approaches zero, these two numbers will get closer to each other. If they are both at about 35787 km (22237 mi) with an inclination of zero, that's geostationary.

As long as perigee and apogee are 1,461 km (908 mi) apart, it's obviously not sitting above one spot on the ocean.


----------



## oakwcj

John4924 said:


> But look where it is now [@ 6:00 am] 92.83
> 
> Have to believe they are doing final tweaks to get to correct testing spot.
> 
> And at least the orbit and period is close enough that it is staying around the middle of the USA. That has to be a good thing!
> 
> Cheers,
> John


It's moving in a fairly narrow range. A few days ago, it was moving almost 10 degrees a day. It's now down to a little over 4 degrees a day. So, today it's moving between 93W and 97W. Tomorrow, both numbers will be about .75 Degrees further west. Of course, the orbit is being tweaked fairly frequently, but the general drift is toward 102.6.


----------



## cygnusloop

JohnH said:


> Bet they are not happy with that inclination figure. Takes a lot of fuel to correct that and starting life with that much is not good.


But, unavoidable unless you launch from very close to the equator. It's all trade-offs.

When SeaLaunch throws D11, that launch will be from a much more equatorial location, and it will start life off with a less inclined orbit.


----------



## satexplorer

D10 @ 102° W for HD only?


----------



## RAD

satexplorer said:


> D10 @ 102° W for HD only?


Actually at 103 along with Spaceway1 for national HD and local HD. Spaceway 2 and D11 at 99 for the same thing.


----------



## eburns

wilmot3 said:


> I would like to know on the tracking web page in the real time position what does the abbreviations mean (RA, DEC)


RA = Right Ascension

DEC = Declination

These are measurements of the Equatorial Coordinate System, most commonly used in astronomy.


----------



## Smthkd

Lynsat says D10 is @ 96.0°W is this correct? Does this mean that D10 is now in a circular orbit and now being moved to its testing position of 102.6?


----------



## Ken984

Right now its at 97 but its moving east again so no it is not moving to its final orbit. Still being tweaked.


----------



## harsh

satexplorer said:


> D10 @ 102° W for HD only?


Not necessarily, but you will need a receiver that knows about Ka satellites to see them.

There have been rumblings about some SD LIL coming from 99W and/or 103W.


----------



## Jeremy W

harsh said:


> There have been rumblings about some SD LIL coming from 99W and/or 103W.


There already is SD LIL for Alaska and Hawaii coming from 103.


----------



## Greyshadow2007

Jeremy W said:


> There already is SD LIL for Alaska and Hawaii coming from 103.


Actually, they're currently at 99


----------



## loudo

D* must be doing some preliminary changing around of channels. The last few days some of the channels have been going on and off line. Yesterday I has listening to XM 803, and it went down for about a half hour. Then last night my wife was watching a movie on one of the Lifetime channels and it went down. Last night the screen popped up saying, don't call us we know this is down. 

This could be just a coincidence, but it could be them moving things around.


----------



## VeniceDre

D10's had a lot of steady movement today.

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862


----------



## MAXX

Ok, I'm new here and I'll admit I skipped from page 2 to the last page. Can anyone give me an update on when we'll actually be able to view some additional HD channels?


----------



## Jeremy W

MAXX said:


> Can anyone give me an update on when we'll actually be able to view some additional HD channels?


The only thing we know for sure is that it will be in September. Exactly when, we don't know yet.


----------



## VeniceDre

MAXX said:


> Ok, I'm new here and I'll admit I skipped from page 2 to the last page. Can anyone give me an update on when we'll actually be able to view some additional HD channels?


D10 should be in it's testing slot of 102.6 by August 10th. After approximately 30 days of testing it'll drift to 102.8 and begin transmissions to DirecTV customers... Officially they are saying mid-September, but the inside track says Labor Day weekend perhaps if everything goes well.


----------



## MAXX

Thank you sir! Does the inside track have an idea what stations or how many?


----------



## VeniceDre

MAXX said:


> Thank you sir! Does the inside track have an idea what stations or how many?


Keep an eye on this list that is updated frequently:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=87235


----------



## MAXX

Thanks again!


----------



## MAXX

VeniceDre, hate to be a pain, but since you are so knowledgeable, are there plans to upgrade ESPN and ESPN2 from 720p to 1081i? If so, when? I saw in some other threads discussion about upgrading from MPEG2 to MPEG4, so I assume that has to do with the quality of the HD?

In that same discussion, they said that ESPNNews would be going HD. I did not see it in your list--D* has no plans to add it? Thanks in advance for putting up with the newb questions!


----------



## Jeremy W

MAXX said:


> are there plans to upgrade ESPN and ESPN2 from 720p to 1081i?


1080i is not an upgrade from 720p, it's just a different format. ESPN will not be changing formats for any of their channels any time soon.


MAXX said:


> In that same discussion, they said that ESPNNews would be going HD. I did not see it in your list--D* has no plans to add it?


It's in the list under Spring 2008.


----------



## Smthkd

However, ESPN did state that they would eventually uprgrade to 1080p as they see this as the future standard. The question though is when!?


----------



## Jeremy W

Smthkd said:


> However, ESPN did state that they would eventually uprgrade to 1080p as they see this as the future standard. The question though is when!?


10-20 years at the very least. ESPN just spent a ton of money on 720p, and they're still buying 720p gear. 1080p broadcasts are very far off.


----------



## MAXX

Thanks guys. That's not good news, since it seems to me that 720p is far crappier than 1080i.........


----------



## oenophile

Jeremy W said:


> 10-20 years at the very least. ESPN just spent a ton of money on 720p, and they're still buying 720p gear. 1080p broadcasts are very far off.


My understanding is that you can't even see 1080p over regular broadcast signals (too much bandwidth), so its *really* far off. 1080i or 720p for a long time.


----------



## Smthkd

Jeremy W said:


> 10-20 years at the very least. ESPN just spent a ton of money on 720p, and they're still buying 720p gear. 1080p broadcasts are very far off.


Not exactly! ESPN has been upgrading to 1080p cameras for over a year now! Do a google search and you will see!


----------



## Jeremy W

MAXX said:


> it seems to me that 720p is far crappier than 1080i.........


If you were shown a 720p and a 1080i image side-by-side at a regular viewing distance, you'd have a lot of trouble telling which was which. You've just conditioned yourself to think 720p is crappier, because in reality it is not.


----------



## Jeremy W

Smthkd said:


> Not exactly! ESPN has been upgrading to 1080p cameras for over a year now! Do a google search and you will see!


You need more than 1080p cameras to broadcast in 1080p! There is a lot of backend support equipment that can't support 1080p! Plus the cost of transmission is much higher as well!


----------



## Jeremy W

oenophile said:


> My understanding is that you can't even see 1080p over regular broadcast signals (too much bandwidth), so its *really* far off. 1080i or 720p for a long time.


1080p will never be possible over OTA MPEG2. OTA would need to transition to MPEG4 before we'd ever see 1080p. But cable channels aren't limited by the OTA specs, so they will be the first ones to do 1080p when the time comes.


----------



## Smthkd

Right! Thats the only thing they need to update but its not hard to broadcast if you use MPEG4 compression rather than current MPEG2 for Sat feeds. There is no need for OTA broadcast as ESPN is not available OTA.


----------



## MAXX

I have a very discerning eye Jeremy 

Anyway, the stuff you guys know is amazing--most of it is over my head.


----------



## Smthkd

Dang Jeremy, we think too much alike! Thats freakin scary man!


----------



## VeniceDre

MAXX said:


> In that same discussion, they said that ESPNNews would be going HD. I did not see it in your list--D* has no plans to add it? Thanks in advance for putting up with the newb questions!


ESPN News is further down the list in the Spring 2008 category. DirecTV has already agreed to carry the 4 forthcoming Disney owned HD channels launching in the spring...

ABC Family
Disney
ESPN News
Toon Disney

They will actually show sporadic exclusive HD specials from Disney, one toward the end of this month, "High School Musical 2."


----------



## Smthkd

Is it just me or does it seem like time has slowed down and its taking FOREVER to get to September!!!?


----------



## VeniceDre

Smthkd said:


> Is it just me or does it seem like time has slowed down and its taking FOREVER to get to September!!!?


Not really for me.

If it consoles you any D10 has been moving a steady .01 degrees every few minutes all day... It's pushing 98 degrees at the moment. It should hopefully be near home soon.


----------



## Smthkd

Im just anxious I guess! Like a little kid that know he's going to Disneyland the next day but keeps waking up every 5 min at night!


----------



## Tom Robertson

Actually broadcast 1080p24 (24 frames per second, ie film speed) is bandwidth possible, but still very unlikely for quite some time. Too many TVs that claim to be compliant aren't, and too few TVs even claim it.

It would more likely available in a compliant set top box that could convert the signal as needed. So that means via satellite (or cable, but who cares about cable...) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## brugg90

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually broadcast 1080p24 (24 frames per second, ie film speed) is bandwidth possible, but still very unlikely for quite some time. Too many TVs that claim to be compliant aren't, and too few TVs even claim it.
> 
> It would more likely available in a compliant set top box that could convert the signal as needed. So that means via satellite (or cable, but who cares about cable...)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I still find that my 720p on a brand new 50pz700u 1080p plasma is really not great. Only the 1080i channels show the details...the 720p doesnt look that much better than sd...but i know its not my tv because blue-ray on ps3 is spectacular.


----------



## dpcv8

what does 1080i/p v 720p have to do with the health and status of DTV 10?


----------



## Ken984

Don't look now but D10 is headed back east, slowly. They didn't tweak anything in the last cpl of days that i can tell, so its just doing the same thing over and over. Now that i look they did tweak it some today, but they upped the eccentricity some so thats going in the wrong direction.

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-02 17:00:57
Orbit # at Epoch	0
Inclination	0.192
RA of A. Node	276.286
Eccentricity	0.0223530
Argument of Perigee	29.697
Revs per day	1.00044100
Period	23h 59m 21s (1439.35 min)
Semi-major axis	42 229 km
Perigee x Apogee	34 907 x 36 794 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	166.028
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	44 / 2 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Last Month Launches


----------



## oenophile

Smthkd said:


> Not exactly! ESPN has been upgrading to 1080p cameras for over a year now! Do a google search and you will see!


OK, apologies for getting/keeping this off topic, but I have to chime in here. If you do do a google search on ESPN and 1080p, you'll see that there's one single mention of the network and 1080p. That mention was in 2004 (!), not from a reliable source or board, and even that implied pretty clearly that it wasn't going to be anytime soon. There's been nothing since.

Sorry for the digression, last post I'll make on this.

Here's a stab at bringing it back --> Is the D10 going to broadcast exclusively in MPEG4, or will it also broadcast some MPEG2 channels?


----------



## Jeremy W

oenophile said:


> Is the D10 going to broadcast exclusively in MPEG4, or will it also broadcast some MPEG2 channels?


It will be exclusively in MPEG4. There is nothing stopping it from doing MPEG2, but there is absolutely no reason to do it. Every receiver that can "see" D10 can decode MPEG4, so that's what it will broadcast.


----------



## VeniceDre

brugg90 said:


> I still find that my 720p on a brand new 50pz700u 1080p plasma is really not great. Only the 1080i channels show the details...the 720p doesnt look that much better than sd...but i know its not my tv because blue-ray on ps3 is spectacular.


I have the same set in my living room... It's great isn't it?... I might change out my office set for the 42 inch version.


----------



## VeniceDre

Now that I guess we're through the 1080p/720p debate...

:backtotop



Ken984 said:


> Don't look now but D10 is headed back east, slowly. They didn't tweak anything in the last cpl of days that i can tell, so its just doing the same thing over and over. Now that i look they did tweak it some today, but they upped the eccentricity some so thats going in the wrong direction.




Well it's still not as far east as it has been, let's see what tomorrow brings. It definately will be doing some moving by the end of the week.

I should just walk away from this thread and check back in on the morning of the 10th.


----------



## tonyn

It is true that 1080P cannot be broadcast over OTA channels. It would take approx. double the bandwidth to do so. 

MPEG-4 compression as a OTA broadcast standard is a long way off. That would require another round of FCC rulemaking, with all the tests, public notices, hearings etc. That ain't gonna happen with the digital transition already long delayed. 

Also the broadcasters have spent the last 9 years spending a ton of money doing their digital buildout and bearing the operating cost of both analog and digital facilities, for which they have not yet nor will they anytime soon recoup a penny of revenue. They naturaly would not be willing to invest yet again on encoders and transmitter exciters.

Keep in mind that OTA broadcasting is a MASS market, and research shows that most viewers claim to be satisfied with the tv they are getting now, Analog standard def. (Egad!) Even though the demand for HiDef is rapidly increasing it will still be a while before the masses are clamoring for it. I have had the sad experience of demonstrating my home theater to some friends whose reaction was "gee that's nice, when it costs only a few hundred bucks I'll look into it". 
Also the broadcasters are currently shooting themselves in the feet by doing not near enough to promote Hi Def. Holy cow Batman!

1080P at 24 frames per second is a preferred production format because it is the format that is best adaptable to conversion to most other formats. This gives the producer the flexibility to distribute their product for a variety of purposes. It transferrs directly to film, say for european distribution without the need for standards converters.


----------



## John4924

:welcome_s to the forum, tonyn, but :backtotop please...

Note that the movement this afternoon and last night is still from the TLEs from yesterday afternoon. Let's see what happens when the TLEs are updated a little later this morning. Hopefully things will change a wee bit.  

Cheers,
John


----------



## oakwcj

In its current orbit, the D10 is continuing to move west a little less than one degree per day, within a 5 degree range. It reaches its maximum west longitude at about 8:00 P.M. EDT each day. Without any changes to the orbit, it should be at 99.4 Degrees West today. It should reach 102.6 on August 9. Of course, since it is still not in a circular orbit, there are bound to be some adjustments in the next few days.


----------



## MRinDenver

Jeremy W said:


> If you were shown a 720p and a 1080i image side-by-side at a regular viewing distance, you'd have a lot of trouble telling which was which. You've just conditioned yourself to think 720p is crappier, because in reality it is not.


(I don't mean to re-hijack the thread, but we need some clairty on this)

Absolutely true. The difference between 720p/1080i is indiscerible by the human eye at anything approaching a reasonable viewing distance, assuming the same equipment and source material. The laws of optics and human anatomy still apply.

1080p would be nice, I guess, but since we still don't have 720p/1080i as the broadcast standard (480i rules until the changeover), don't expect the public or the broadcasters to be willing to dump their new equipment anytime in the next 10-15 years. Most US households currently can't "see" any digital format and probably won't until forced. And this transition has taken nearly a decade from start to Feb 09.

Another expensive upgrade just isn't going to be endorsed by anyone, except maybe the mfgrs.:lol:

Can you imagine telling Joe that his new Chinese made LCD, which he just bought to accept 1080i and cost him more than his first car, will not accept the new 1080p format?

No time soon, I am sure.


----------



## krock918316

Come on guys....It's not that hard to start a new thread.

:backtotop

Edit: Someone has started a new thread. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93919


----------



## Ken984

oakwcj said:


> In its current orbit, the D10 is continuing to move west a little less than one degree per day, within a 5 degree range. It reaches its maximum west longitude at about 8:00 P.M. EDT each day. Without any changes to the orbit, it should be at 99.4 Degrees West today. It should reach 102.6 on August 9. Of course, since it is still not in a circular orbit, there are bound to be some adjustments in the next few days.


Oak is dead on the money here, it got just over 99.4 and started back east around 8 EST.


----------



## GeorgeLV

Jeremy W said:


> 1080p will never be possible over OTA MPEG2. OTA would need to transition to MPEG4 before we'd ever see 1080p. But cable channels aren't limited by the OTA specs, so they will be the first ones to do 1080p when the time comes.


Well, only if you mean 1080p60. There is plenty of 1080p24 or 1080p30 that is encapsulated in 1080i60 with 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown right now.


----------



## Jeremy W

GeorgeLV said:


> Well, only if you mean 1080p60.


Of course. Nobody is going to upgrade all of their gear to 1080p just to do 1080p24 or 1080p30.


----------



## Smthkd

OK OK! :backtotop Does anybody have a clue why D10 still have not made its way torward 102.6 yet? The closer I seen it get was 99.7w then it started heading east again and have not turn back yet! Even Lynsat has it over by 92w?


----------



## Ken984

It is slowly moving West, even though it moves back East each day it is moving farther West and less East. They are still circularizing the orbit. It SHOULD be in the proper spot towards Thursday, since they requested to test starting on the 10th.


----------



## VeniceDre

Spaceway 1 is now at 102.87.


----------



## Smthkd

Okay, thanks guys and nice updates about SW1 also!!!


----------



## harsh

Remember that while the n2yo.com site claims to offer "Real Time Satellite Tracking", the information isn't derived from real-time telemetry. It is based on a sophisticated function that projects the position of the satellite. As such, the numbers you see may change inexplicably one way or the other as the function is updated.


----------



## man_rob

VeniceDre said:


> Spaceway 1 is now at 102.87.


That makes sense, as D* got FCC permission to start testing on D10 starting this Fri., Aug. 10.

I hope the rumors are true that D* expects to be done testing by Labor Day Weekend.


----------



## VeniceDre

man_rob said:


> That makes sense, as D* got FCC permission to start testing on D10 starting this Fri., Aug. 10.
> 
> I hope the rumors are true that D* expects to be done testing by Labor Day Weekend.


Spaceway 1 is supposed to end up at 102.885 to give D10 some room for testing... Spaceway has moving about .01 each day for the past few days...

It should be at 102.885 tomorrow or Wednesday.


----------



## ScoBuck

man_rob said:


> That makes sense, as D* got FCC permission to start testing on D10 starting this Fri., Aug. 10.
> 
> I hope the rumors are true that D* expects to be done testing by Labor Day Weekend.


First off, they are NOT RUMORS. This info is on the FCC filing as posted in the OP of this thread:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-130667

And the date listed for insertion into permanent orbit is September 15th. The 2 week delay has to to with the 2 week delay of the launch.


----------



## man_rob

ScoBuck said:


> First off, they are NOT RUMORS. This info is on the FCC filing as posted in the OP of this thread:
> http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-130667
> 
> And the date listed for insertion into permanent orbit is September 15th. The 2 week delay has to to with the 2 week delay of the launch.


Are you saying that D* is sticking to the Sept. 15 date, even though they got permission to start testing a week earlier than on the said document? Is it possible that they might also seek permission to move D10 into it's permanent slot earlier (Say around Labor Day Weekend as rumored)?


----------



## Jeremy W

man_rob said:


> Is it possible that they might also seek permission to move D10 into it's permanent slot earlier (Say around Labor Day Weekend as rumored)?


It is absolutely possible, and they would definitely be granted permission if they did ask.


----------



## bakers12

Has anyone been getting TLE (two-line element) tracking data from http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/? D10 is no longer in its first 30 days, so the data has been moved out of the "new satellite" link, but I don't know where it's been moved to.

Edit: It looks like I can find the data at http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862.


----------



## donshan

Jeremy W said:


> It is absolutely possible, and they would definitely be granted permission if they did ask.


Like everyone else I am eager for D10 to become operational ASAP, and Labor Day would be great!. However, I expect they will follow their announced schedule as closely as possible.

I am a retired project manager in a totally different field than satellites, but I am quite sure Boeing and DirecTV have a carefully prepared set of detailed step by step procedure books tied to a master schedule. Each person involved has one or more sub-tasks to be done at specific times on that schedule. If this project is like some I managed, the people involved have other programs they work on in addition to D10, so they may not be available for D10 work until their assigned exact date in the approved "Project Plan Schedule". Right now they may not be working on the D10 project, and will pick up their subtask job on their assigned "scheduled date".

Coordinating all the technical skills of multiple people requires care, since they don't want any mistakes. If you have ever watched NASA's control room you see dozens of people in charge of multiple subsystems. Each does their job following the exact step and time on a written procedure page, scheduled in proper sequence that has been reviewed many times and given a final "GO" some time ago. Any changes to any procedure require a complete review and a new round of approvals and signoffs.

Changing a carefully planned project schedule at the last minute could lead to a dangerous error and I doubt they will do it just to be a bit early. Their may be "hold time" built into the schedule that would allow early completion if there are no problems at all. It would be nice if everything went perfectly, but this rarely happens. I can wish however!


----------



## man_rob

donshan said:


> Like everyone else I am eager for D10 to become operational ASAP, and Labor Day would be great!. However, I expect they will follow their announced schedule as closely as possible.
> 
> I am a retired project manager in a totally different field than satellites, but I am quite sure Boeing and DirecTV have a carefully prepared set of detailed step by step procedure books tied to a master schedule. Each person involved has one or more sub-tasks to be done at specific times on that schedule. If this project is like some I managed, the people involved have other programs they work on in addition to D10, so they may not be available for D10 work until their assigned exact date in the approved "Project Plan Schedule". Right now they may not be working on the D10 project, and will pick up their subtask job on their assigned "scheduled date".
> 
> Coordinating all the technical skills of multiple people requires care, since they don't want any mistakes. If you have ever watched NASA's control room you see dozens of people in charge of multiple subsystems. Each does their job following the exact step and time on a written procedure page, scheduled in proper sequence that has been reviewed many times and given a final "GO" some time ago. Any changes to any procedure require a complete review and a new round of approvals and signoffs.
> 
> Changing a carefully planned project schedule at the last minute could lead to a dangerous error and I doubt they will do it just to be a bit early. Their may be "hold time" built into the schedule that would allow early completion if there are no problems at all. It would be nice if everything went perfectly, but this rarely happens. I can wish however!


Except, they've already changed it. They are going to start testing it this Friday, a week earlier than what was planned.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Donshan,

Thanks for the information. I am sure they will do what is right and not light them up till they know that everything is working right as has been the case in the past from what I rtemember anyways.


----------



## kaysersoze

donshan said:


> Like everyone else I am eager for D10 to become operational ASAP, and Labor Day would be great!. However, I expect they will follow their announced schedule as closely as possible.
> 
> I am a retired project manager in a totally different field than satellites, but I am quite sure Boeing and DirecTV have a carefully prepared set of detailed step by step procedure books tied to a master schedule. Each person involved has one or more sub-tasks to be done at specific times on that schedule. If this project is like some I managed, the people involved have other programs they work on in addition to D10, so they may not be available for D10 work until their assigned exact date in the approved "Project Plan Schedule". Right now they may not be working on the D10 project, and will pick up their subtask job on their assigned "scheduled date".
> 
> Coordinating all the technical skills of multiple people requires care, since they don't want any mistakes. If you have ever watched NASA's control room you see dozens of people in charge of multiple subsystems. Each does their job following the exact step and time on a written procedure page, scheduled in proper sequence that has been reviewed many times and given a final "GO" some time ago. Any changes to any procedure require a complete review and a new round of approvals and signoffs.
> 
> Changing a carefully planned project schedule at the last minute could lead to a dangerous error and I doubt they will do it just to be a bit early. Their may be "hold time" built into the schedule that would allow early completion if there are no problems at all. It would be nice if everything went perfectly, but this rarely happens. I can wish however!


I think you are absolutely correct here, but the key point is the detailed master schedule they are following is probably not the same as what they send to the FCC. Since FCC approval for anything takes time they would most likely ad some cushion into the dates they supply to the FCC.


----------



## donshan

man_rob said:


> Except, they've already changed it. They are going to start testing it this Friday, a week earlier than what was planned.


Thanks. I had forgotten post #311 above with this FCC notice which changed the June 5 original plan, so to remind others too here is the post link above found by dwrats_56 :

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1025044&postcount=311

FCC quote:


> effective Date: 07/23/2007Grant of Authority
> Special Temporary Authority
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
> Nature of Service: Other
> On July 23, 2007, the Policy Branch granted with conditions the request of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") for special temporary
> authority (STA), File No. SAT-STA-20070607-00078. Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for thirty days commencing August 10,
> 2007, to operate the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the102.6º W.L. orbital location after launch to conduct in-orbit testing (IOT) using the
> 29.250-29.500 GHz/28.350-28.600 GHz (uplink) and 18.300-18.800 GHz (downlink) frequencies and to conduct telemetry, tracking and
> command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink), 18.30025 GHz and 18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary
> to maintain the satellite at that location and to drift the satellite to its assigned orbital location at 102.8° W.L. following the end of IOT. This
> authorization is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment
> to grant, and the Commission's rules.


By changing plans back in July they had time to revise their working schedules. And as I said it is "normal" to build in some "hold" time at certain points to solve problems, and if there are few to none, then beat the schedule. Upper management NEVER complains about early completion or getting the job done under budget!

I am just surprised that, just 3 days before this FCC testing window begins, D10 has not already arrived at its test slot. If I were managing the IOT testing phase I would feel better today if D10 were already at its slot and stable. They are cutting this pretty close in IMHO!


----------



## Smthkd

Just checked www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 and they show D10 at 101.11w and it continues to slow down!!


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Just checked www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 and they show D10 at 101.11w and it continues to slow down!!


Yep. The TLE's haven't been updated today, but I expect one or two tweaks tonight and tomorrow to slide it into the GSO test slot.


----------



## PoitNarf

LameLefty said:


> Yep. The TLE's haven't been updated today, but I expect one or two tweaks tonight and tomorrow to slide it into the GSO test slot.


----------



## cygnusloop

donshan said:


> Coordinating all the technical skills of multiple people requires care, since they don't want any mistakes. If you have ever watched NASA's control room you see dozens of people in charge of multiple subsystems.


While NASA planning and operations may look very calm on the surface, the kind of rescheduling and re-tasking of resources that you commented about is constantly going on under the surface. It's really quite chaotic (I'm not saying that's how it should be, just that that is how it is).

In my line of work I have had the opportunity to spend a great deal of time at various NASA centers, particularly NASA Goddard Spaceflight Center, and one thing you are absolutely correct about is how much they love their piles of paper with procedures and scheduling information on them, that must be signed off on by multiple parties. The problem is, by the time you get your hands on said schedule, it's already been superseded by a revised version. Sometimes, I think the "N" in NASA stands for "Knucklehead". Wait, that starts with a "K"..... 

I guess my point is that I hope D*/Boeing's operation staff is more organized than NASA's.


----------



## LameLefty

Okay, folks. Fun stuff is coming. New TLEs tonight have eccentricity and inclination way down and D10 at around 101.9 as I write.


----------



## PoitNarf

LameLefty said:


> Okay, folks. Fun stuff is coming. New TLEs tonight have eccentricity and inclination way down and D10 at around 101.9 as I write.


I'm guessing that means the orbit is becoming increasingly circular?

Once D10 is parked for testing, how long is it estimated that the testing will take?


----------



## LameLefty

PoitNarf said:


> I'm guessing that means the orbit is becoming increasingly circular?


Increasingly circular (it was already close to circular but now it's getting REALLY close to circular.  Also, inclination is much closer to exactly equatorial, which is just as important. If you compare the orbital elements for D10 to other satellites in the constellation, you see that there's still some work to be done (eccentricity is still about two orders of magnitude - a hundred times - bigger than it needs to be, and inclination needs to be much closer to zero. Nonetheless, in absolute terms, it's pretty close. 



> Once D10 is parked for testing, how long is it estimated that the testing will take?


Don't know for sure. Several weeks at least, followed by a few days to move it to the final slot.


----------



## PoitNarf

You continue to be an invaluable resource in this thread Lefty, thanks


----------



## moonman

TLE's:
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07219.54775424 -.00000071 00000-0 00000+0 0 460
2 31862 000.1528 283.7460 0067936 024.8052 103.9330 00.99902936 06
-----------------------
History:
Catalog Number Common Name International Designator Country (Key) Launch Date Launch Site (Key) Decay Date Period Incl. Apogee Perigee RCS Latest Data 
22930 DIRECTV 1 (DBS 1) 1993-078A US 1993-12-18 FRGUI 1436.11 0.02 35795 35778 316.228 Last Elset 
23192 DIRECTV 2 (DBS 2) 1994-047A US 1994-08-03 AFETR 1459.9 0.61 36293 36210 794.328 Last Elset 
23598 DIRECTV 3 (DBS 3) 1995-029A US 1995-06-10 FRGUI 1436.12 0.03 35797 35777 137.83 Last Elset 
24748 DIRECTV 6 (TEMPO 2) 1997-011A US 1997-03-08 AFETR 1454.06 1.43 36256 36019 158.489 Last Elset 
25937 DIRECTV 1R 1999-056A US 1999-10-10 SEAL 1436.12 0.03 35798 35777 11.5545 Last Elset 
26985 DIRECTV 4S 2001-052A US 2001-11-27 FRGUI 1436.09 0.01 35799 35774 0.01 Last Elset 
27426 DIRECTV 5 (TEMPO 1) 2002-023A US 2002-05-07 TTMTR 1436.11 0.02 35802 35772 7.5644 Last Elset 
28238 DIRECTV 7S 2004-016A US 2004-05-04 SEAL 1436.08 0.03 35797 35776 0.01 Last Elset 
28644 SPACEWAY 1 2005-015A US 2005-04-26 SEAL 1436.11 0.01 35788 35786 0.01 Last Elset 
28659 DIRECTV 8 2005-019A US 2005-05-22 TTMTR 1436.1 0.02 35797 35776 15.9961 Last Elset 
28903 SPACEWAY 2 2005-046B US 2005-11-16 FRGUI 1436.1 0.01 35787 35786 0.1 Last Elset 
29494 DIRECTV 9S 2006-043A US 2006-10-13 FRGUI 1436.11 0.01 35796 35778 0.1 Last Elset 
31862 DIRECTV 10 2007-032A US 2007-07-07 TTMTR 1438.27 0.17 36722 34936 17.9244 Last Elset 
31863 BREEZE-M DEB (TANK) 2007-032B CIS 2007-07-07 TTMTR 263.92 46.06 14193 310 11.299 Last Elset 
31864 BREEZE-M R/B 2007-032C CIS 2007-07-07 TTMTR 715.64 21.29 35457 4792 12.6099


----------



## bbaleno

does anyone know, if the message on 499 will change from searching for sat to something else when they light up the bird. or will everything just pop on when it gets to its final destination


----------



## bakers12

Where were you able to find the TLE for D10? The only source I've got right now is http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862 and they have the old data. I can't find it on http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/ (they must be hiding it).


----------



## LameLefty

bakers12 said:


> Where were you able to find the TLE for D10? The only source I've got right now is http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862 and they have the old data. I can't find it on http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/ (they must be hiding it).


I got it straight from Celestrak's source: NORAD! www.space-track.org

It's no longer in the last 30 days' launches, it's not quite in GSO yet so it's not with them, and it's not in the list of 100 brightest, etc. It'll be in one of the sets once it settles down.


----------



## moonman

bakers12 said:


> Where were you able to find the TLE for D10? The only source I've got right now is http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862 and they have the old data. I can't find it on http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/ (they must be hiding it).


------------------------
Sorry.....you need DOD access to get the data....
The Space-Track.Org website provides access to satellite orbital data
received from Department of Defense (DoD). This is the same data, with
the same latency that has been provided by the NASA Orbital Information
Group (OIG) website for many years. This orbital data consists of
Two-Line Element (TLE) sets, Satellite Catalog Messages, Project Tip
Messages, Satellite Decay Messages, Predicted Decay Forecasts, Satellite
Box Scores, and Satellite Reports.
-------------------------
'tho some data is classified, commercial satellite data in general is not.
Here is what you see when trying to access the site:
Welcome to Space-Track
There are currently 62677470 TLE in the database
Last Update: Wed Aug 8 01:56:37 2007 GMT

Due to existing National Security Restrictions pertaining to access of and use of U.S. Government-provided information and data, all users accessing this web site must be an approved registered user to access data on this site.


----------



## bakers12

Thanks for the info. I guess I'll just wait a couple hours and get the data like everyone else. :raspberry


----------



## LameLefty

moonman said:


> ------------------------
> Due to existing National Security Restrictions pertaining to access of and use of U.S. Government-provided information and data, all users accessing this web site must be an approved registered user to access data on this site.


It's not that hard. I've been registered for years.


----------



## bakers12

It sounds like they'll run a background check or something. I'd hate for them to find out about that... um... never mind. :engel07:


----------



## Smthkd

Im registered to! I did this about 4 years ago when the Spaceway sats were being prepared!


----------



## Tom Robertson

bakers12 said:


> It sounds like they'll run a background check or something. I'd hate for them to find out about that... um... never mind. :engel07:


When I registered to get the spaceway data, I just had to have a US email and US IP address. Was not a problem at all.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Jeremy W

bbaleno said:


> does anyone know, if the message on 499 will change from searching for sat to something else when they light up the bird. or will everything just pop on when it gets to its final destination


Yes, once D10 is operational channel 499 will be able to display a success message instead of the searching for sat message.


----------



## John4924

LameLefty said:


> I got it straight from Celestrak's source: NORAD! www.space-track.org
> 
> It's no longer in the last 30 days' launches, it's not quite in GSO yet so it's not with them, and it's not in the list of 100 brightest, etc. It'll be in one of the sets once it settles down.


Lefty, the n2yo site still shows an apogee of 37103 km and perigee of 34089 km. This is still over 3000 km difference. Does the NORAD site you are looking at show these converging?

And thanks for all of your informative posts 

Cheers,
John


----------



## Ken984

These are the latest figures I can find.

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-07 13:08:45
Orbit # at Epoch	0
Inclination	0.153
RA of A. Node	283.746
Eccentricity	0.0067936
Argument of Perigee	24.805
Revs per day	0.99902936
Period	24h 01m 23s (1441.38 min)
Semi-major axis	42 268 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 603 x 36 177 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000000000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	103.933
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	46 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary

Looking at those the difference between per and ap is about 500km.


----------



## LameLefty

Hi John - the n2yo site is now using the latest elset (it had not been updated as of last night). So to the extent that the elements are still correct, that's right - there's still a substantial difference between apogee and perigee (eccentricity). Remember a few things, however: first, in absolute terms, they are very close to being where they need to be. A few relatively small tweaks can circularize that orbit pretty much whenever they want. They are adjusting inclination, apogee and perigee in order to make sure that whenever they DO finalize things, it will be right where they want it. The second thing to realize is that satellite tracking for civilian/non-satellite operators is really not real-time. They can manuever dozens of times between updates to the elsets. I would not be surprised at all to see updates elements tonight or tomorrow night showing them right where they need to be, with us having missed all the small interim steps.


----------



## John4924

Has anyone else received a form letter from D* indicating that you need to have your BBCs installed by September 1 to receive the NEW HD channels? What got my attention was the date of Sept 1, and NOT Sept 15.

I received this notification in the mail yesterday. Just curious if anyone else received the same.

Cheers,
John


----------



## JeffBowser

I got the letter a week or so ago. I took the opportunity to order myself a couple free spare BBC's and upgrade an old RCA box to an HR20.


----------



## PoitNarf

John4924 said:


> Has anyone else received a form letter from D* indicating that you need to have your BBCs installed by September 1 to receive the NEW HD channels? What got my attention was the date of Sept 1, and NOT Sept 15.
> 
> I received this notification in the mail yesterday. Just curious if anyone else received the same.


They've been on an aggressive campaign to make sure the BBCs are connected on users receivers for several weeks now. They've sent out letters and have even made phone calls to customers if I remember correctly.


----------



## Tom Robertson

PoitNarf said:


> They've been on an aggressive campaign to make sure the BBCs are connected on users receivers for several weeks now. They've sent out letters and have even made phone calls to customers if I remember correctly.


I've received a letter, emails, phone calls, and heard that fresh off the assembly line receivers have a big sticker warning people to install the BBCs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## man_rob

John4924 said:


> What got my attention was the date of Sept 1, and NOT Sept 15.
> Cheers,
> John


Another hint that the new HD channels are coming before mid Sept.?


----------



## JeffBowser

Yep, big ol' sticker, almost completely covering the air vents on top. :nono2:



Tom Robertson said:


> I've received a letter, emails, phone calls, and heard that fresh off the assembly line receivers have a big sticker warning people to install the BBCs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


----------



## Mavrick

JeffBowser said:


> Yep, big ol' sticker, almost completely covering the air vents on top. :nono2:


That is unless you get the hr20-100 then you have no air vents on top to cover.


----------



## d max82

John4924 said:


> Has anyone else received a form letter from D* indicating that you need to have your BBCs installed by September 1 to receive the NEW HD channels? What got my attention was the date of Sept 1, and NOT Sept 15.
> 
> I received this notification in the mail yesterday. Just curious if anyone else received the same.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


No letter, but I did order 2 bbc from the internet page on saturday morning. I recieved 5 individually mailed bbc monday via fedex. So they sent them out on a saturday and sent them fedex overnight 5 times over so D* spent a crap load of money to get them here, so something must be on the "real soon" horizon.


----------



## Dolly

d max82 said:


> No letter, but I did order 2 bbc from the internet page on saturday morning. I recieved 5 individually mailed bbc monday via fedex. So they sent them out on a saturday and sent them fedex overnight 5 times over so D* spent a crap load of money to get them here, so something must be on the "real soon" horizon.


Now that is what we like to hear "real soon" :sunsmile:


----------



## Steve Robertson

Dolly said:


> Now that is what we like to hear "real soon" :sunsmile:


Dolly I like real soon as well but it is all relative. We have been waiting 3 years so real soon at this point could be another month or 2 but I am with you, it would be nice to have Labor day weekend.


----------



## Dolly

Steve Robertson said:


> Dolly I like real soon as well but it is all relative. We have been waiting 3 years so real soon at this point could be another month or 2 but I am with you, it would be nice to have Labor day weekend.


What a great Holiday weekend that would be :sunsmile: But I know D can't rush things :nono2: We certainly don't want anything to go wrong at this point :girlscrea


----------



## donshan

Just noted on n2yo.com that D10 passed 102 west at about 11:20AM PDT, and is now at -102.03 longitude and still moving west!


----------



## John4924

donshan said:


> Just noted on n2yo.com that D10 passed 102 west at about 11:20AM PDT, and is now at -102.03 longitude and still moving west!


Now let's see if it stops at its testing position of 102.6?


----------



## Steve Robertson

Dolly said:


> What a great Holiday weekend that would be :sunsmile: But I know D can't rush things :nono2: We certainly don't want anything to go wrong at this point :girlscrea


I would rather have them get it right than roll it out and have problems we have waited this long so it will be ready when it is ready but that would make for a good weekend although with the lobster and clam bake I am doing for 30 people probably won't have much time for tv.


----------



## MrDad0330

I just noticed that too. I havent been paying that much attention over the last days as it just seemed to be taking forever. I am not sure if they will get it there today. I dont think its at 0 over the equator either, a few more tweeks.. where is LameLefty when we need him... Does anyone know it we will see additional transponder numbers light up on the 103 position on our HR20s when they begin testing? 
I guess D11 will go much faster to its slot being that its being put up by Sea Launch at the equator....


----------



## Ken984

current position as far as my software can predict.
1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.1121° W
Lat	0.0613° S
Alt (km)	36 175.780
Azm	195.2°
Elv	51.2°
RA	08h 59m 34s
Decl	-5° 16' 50"
Range (km)	37 392.053
RRt (km/s)	-0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.050
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	187.6° (133)
TA	187.5°
Orbit #	1
Mag (illum)	? (2%)
Constellation	Hya


----------



## M3 Pete

Tom Robertson said:


> I've received a letter, emails, phone calls, and heard that fresh off the assembly line receivers have a big sticker warning people to install the BBCs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I never got any messages, but did just get an HR20. Packed in the HR20 box were two BBCs, and there was a big sticker on the protective foam covering the unit showing how to install them.

I can't imagine that satellite location info is a matter of national security. It's not like anyone without the independent ability to track the satellites is going to be able to do anything about them, even if they were military satellites.

But I guess we don't want to simply give military secrets away for free ...


----------



## VeniceDre

It's been heading west most of the day the past few days. At around 5:00 PM Pacific Time it starts drifiting back East though... Hopefully it stays put today instead of drifitng East this evening.


----------



## LameLefty

donshan said:


> Just noted on n2yo.com that D10 passed 102 west at about 11:20AM PDT, and is now at -102.03 longitude and still moving west!


Ken's post is correct - the ny2o site isn't using the latest TLEs. D10 is at about 101.43 as I type.


----------



## Ken984

Looking at the wrong bird sorry.


----------



## Ken984

Sorry again wrong info. was looking at spaceway 1.


----------



## LameLefty

Just an update based on current TLE's (if the sat hasn't maneuvered since then - and it might have!): D10 is at 101.71 W and continuing to drift westward sloooooooowly.


----------



## VeniceDre

LameLefty said:


> Just an update based on current TLE's (if the sat hasn't maneuvered since then - and it might have!): D10 is at 101.71 W and continuing to drift westward sloooooooowly.


http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

Has it just hitting 102.6 a couple minutes ago with speed decreasing.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Ken's post is correct - the ny2o site isn't using the latest TLEs. D10 is at about 101.43 as I type.


Yes, I appreciated your earlier posts about the lag times and infrequent updates at n2yo, and thanks for your continuing more accurate updates.

We are all waiting to hear it has reached its testing slot. :hurah:


----------



## Drew2k

Tom Robertson said:


> I've received a letter, emails, phone calls, and heard that fresh off the assembly line receivers have a big sticker warning people to install the BBCs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I've not received any letters, emails or phone calls. I wonder what DIRECTV is trying to tell me by not telling me anything! 

Just kidding. They must have read my setup and know I didn't need the BBCs. :lol:


----------



## John4924

fyi...Spaceway 1 is now at 102.88  

So I think we must be getting close...


----------



## VeniceDre

John4924 said:


> fyi...Spaceway 1 is now at 102.88
> 
> So I think we must be getting close...


Damn, you beat me to the post.


----------



## Richi

Earl has stated that D10 is supposed to last for 15 years. I assumed that 15 years was to enable the sat to manuver up and down as required to maintain it in the proper location and orientation. D10 was initially scheduled to be launched form an equitorial loction, meaning that VERY LITTLE gas would be needed to place it at the equator. As we all know, D10 WAS launched form a high inclination, meaning that a LOT OF GAS has been used to place it about the equator. Now here comes the ticker, how much gas will remain in this bugger and how much usefull time will remain after it is placed at the desired location?


----------



## VeniceDre

Richi said:


> Earl has stated that D10 is supposed to last for 15 years. I assumed that 15 years was to enable the sat to manuver up and down as required to maintain it in the proper location and orientation. D10 was initially scheduled to be launched form an equitorial loction, meaning that VERY LITTLE gas would be needed to place it at the equator. As we all know, D10 WAS launched form a high inclination, meaning that a LOT OF GAS has been used to place it about the equator. Now here comes the ticker, how much gas will remain in this bugger and how much usefull time will remain after it is placed at the desired location?


Do you mean equatoral position as in Sea Launch? D10 was always Kazakhstan, D11 is Sea Launch which is now Late December 2007/January 2008 due to accident earlier this year.


----------



## Richi

VeniceDre said:


> Do you mean equatoral position as in Sea Launch? D10 was always Kazakhstan, D11 is Sea Launch which is now Late December 2007/January 2008 due to accident earlier this year.


I believe D10 was to be Sea Launch.....before it went BOOM.... soooo D10 was sent to Kazakhstan and D11 was recheduled to be Sea Launch ed...


----------



## bbaleno

When it reaches its testing slot would we get any signal from it, or will it be just out of sight?


----------



## VeniceDre

Richi said:


> I believe D10 was to be Sea Launch.....before it went BOOM.... soooo D10 was sent to Kazakhstan and D11 was recheduled to be Sea Launch ed...


D10 was always Kazakhstan w/ ILS

D11 was always Sea Launch, the "boom" delayed it from late summer to winter.


----------



## Jeremy W

bbaleno said:


> When it reaches its testing slot would we get any signal from it, or will it be just out of sight?


I'd imagine that the dish isn't picky enough that it just wouldn't see it, but that doesn't mean our receivers will show a signal from it. They won't "know" about D10's transponders until it's just about ready to go, and that's when we'll actually see a signal on our receivers.


----------



## Ken984

It got to 103.1251 and started back East. Unless the TLE has been updated since 8CDT.


----------



## bbaleno

another dumb question

will the n/a on the signal strength meter for 103 get replaced? how many conus transponders does it have. (Im to lazy to look it up)


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

bbaleno said:


> another dumb question
> 
> will the n/a on the signal strength meter for 103 get replaced? how many conus transponders does it have. (Im to lazy to look it up)


As DIRECTV starts adding new HD channels you will start getting signals on the transponders that are showing N/A as they add more and more.


----------



## Jeremy W

bbaleno said:


> will the n/a on the signal strength meter for 103 get replaced? how many conus transponders does it have.


They will become active when D10 is done with it's testing and ready to provide us with our brand new HD channels. Both D10 and D11 have 14 CONUS transponders.


----------



## bbaleno

An tis a paaa sion


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> It got to 103.1251 and started back East. Unless the TLE has been updated since 8CDT.


Since it is all I have, I have been following D10 and Spaceway 1 on n2yo.com. They have been updating their TLE data under the "details" link with the following at 6 PM PDT ( the same as your 8CDT) I note they are updating these data each hour at the top of the hour.



> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07219.54775424 -.00000071 00000-0 00000+0 0 460
> 2 31862 000.1528 283.7460 0067936 024.8052 103.9330 00.99902936 06
> 
> Last time retrieved: August 09 2007 01:00 UTC
> 
> More details about DIRECTV 10


At 6:40 PDT they list longitude as -103.12 which is the same reading they showed about 6:15 PDT so it is nearly stopped in longitude drift based on no changes in 40 minutes and their speed data. They show a speed of 12.72 mph but I saw readings below 9 around 6 PM

I know almost nothing about this so perhaps you can interpret for me.


----------



## morgantown

bbaleno said:


> An tis a paaa sion


+100


----------



## LameLefty

donshan said:


> Since it is all I have, I have been following D10 and Spaceway 1 on n2yo.com. They have been updating their TLE data under the "details" link with the following at 6 PM PDT ( the same as your 8CDT) I note they are updating these data each hour at the top of the hour.
> 
> At 6:40 PDT they list longitude as -103.12 which is the same reading they showed about 6:15 PDT so it is nearly stopped in latitude drift based on no changes in 40 minutes and their speed data. They show a speed of 12.72 mph but I saw readings below 9 around 6 PM
> 
> I know almost nothing about this so perhaps you can interpret for me.


Nope, that data is obsolete. That site hasn't updated its TLE set since last night. Around mid-morning or so a new set was published (if you have Space-Track access you can get it).

THOSE elements show D10 at 102.06 W and drifting slowly east. This set has not yet been updated - I will check again through the night and into tomorrow.

EDITED again to correct my east-west - I've been tracking this thing all day and missed apogee at 6:22 or so this evening.


----------



## lwilli201

D10 has 32 national transponders and 8 spares. How many of these transponders will be active right away is not known.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf


----------



## Ken984

That is the same TLE that i have and it is moving very slowly East now, its 849 pm and here are my readings.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	103.1187° W
Lat	0.0944° S
Alt (km)	35 775.960
Azm	197.0°
Elv	50.8°
RA	16h 00m 26s
Decl	-5° 22' 19"
Range (km)	37 012.805
RRt (km/s)	-0.020
Vel (km/s)	3.079
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	293.6° (208)
TA	292.9°
Orbit #	1
Mag (illum)	? (61%)
Constellation	Oph
2Sun
Azm	295.7°
Elv	-9.1°
RA	09h 14m 20s
Decl	16° 00' 06"
Lon	154.0014° E
Lat	16.0032° N
Range (km)	151 679 734
Constellation	Cnc
3Moon
Azm	343.3°
Elv	-28.0°
RA	05h 48m 58s
Decl	27° 29' 11"
Lon	103.1343° E
Lat	28.3095° N
Range (km)	380 102
Illum	19%
Phase	Waning crescent
Constellation	Tau


----------



## LameLefty

Ken that data is obsolete, if you mean the elset that n20 is using.


----------



## Renard

lwilli201 said:


> D10 has 32 national transponders and 8 spares. How many of these transponders will be active right away is not known.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf


Hence my question, if D10 has 32 national transponders and i think 55 spot beams transponders, how it is going to work to show all these transponders on the HR20
32 transponders on D10, so far 7 on Spaceway
32+7=39, but there is only 32 transponders on the Hr20  :eek2: 
I don't even count the spot beams transponders in it
The same thing will apply for D11 and the other Spaceway on 99  
Maybe i am missing something


----------



## PoitNarf

Renard said:


> Hence my question, if D10 has 32 national transponders and i think 55 spot beams transponders, how it is going to work to show all these transponders on the HR20
> 32 transponders on D10, so far 7 on Spaceway
> 32+7=39, but there is only 32 transponders on the Hr20  :eek2:
> I don't even count the spot beams transponders in it
> The same thing will apply for D11 and the other Spaceway on 99
> Maybe i am missing something


Are you referring to the signal strength test screens? If you go there on a H20 or HR20 you will notice 2 different "networks" for 99 and 103.


----------



## RAD

Just because it has 32 national transponders doesn't mean that they'll fire all of them up, they ususally keep a number as spares since they can fail.


----------



## Renard

PoitNarf said:


> Are you referring to the signal strength test screens? If you go there on a H20 or HR20 you will notice 2 different "networks" for 99 and 103.


Yes
By 2 different networks you mean 99b and 103a
Is there a 99a and a 103b in the menu?


----------



## PoitNarf

Renard said:


> Is there a 99a and a 103b in the menu?


Right now no, but there will be very soon.


----------



## Renard

PoitNarf said:


> Right now no, but there will be very soon.


Ok this is the thing i was missing, so we will get this with a new software update or automatically when they will turn on the transponders on D10.


----------



## Ken984

LameLefty said:


> Ken that data is obsolete, if you mean the elset that n20 is using.


Yeah, I just dont have a new set to put into my program...bummer.


----------



## LameLefty

Here's the current published data:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07220.65843818 -.00000091 00000-0 10000-3 0 475
2 31862 000.1502 285.3625 0048856 025.1453 142.2278 01.00044336 09


----------



## Ken984

Thanks Lefty, got it loaded now.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	101.8755° W
Lat	0.0659° S
Alt (km)	35 718.700
Azm	194.8°
Elv	51.2°
RA	17h 13m 35s
Decl	-5° 21' 03"
Range (km)	36 933.686
RRt (km/s)	-0.012
Vel (km/s)	3.082
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	309.5° (219)
TA	309.1°
Orbit #	0
Mag (illum)	? (75%)


----------



## MIAMI1683

You guys rock on this. I have read this thread everyday and the info is tremendous. thanks again.


----------



## PoitNarf

Are we there yet? :lol:


----------



## Tom Robertson

VeniceDre said:


> Richi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Earl has stated that D10 is supposed to last for 15 years. I assumed that 15 years was to enable the sat to manuver up and down as required to maintain it in the proper location and orientation. D10 was initially scheduled to be launched form an equitorial loction, meaning that VERY LITTLE gas would be needed to place it at the equator. As we all know, D10 WAS launched form a high inclination, meaning that a LOT OF GAS has been used to place it about the equator. Now here comes the ticker, how much gas will remain in this bugger and how much usefull time will remain after it is placed at the desired location?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean equatoral position as in Sea Launch? D10 was always Kazakhstan, D11 is Sea Launch which is now Late December 2007/January 2008 due to accident earlier this year.
Click to expand...

VeniceDre is correct, but there was quite a bit of confusion from the launch calendars as to which was being launched from where/when. The calendars did not change because of the engine failure aboard Sea Launch, but the calendars did come to agreement.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

Renard said:


> Hence my question, if D10 has 32 national transponders and i think 55 spot beams transponders, how it is going to work to show all these transponders on the HR20
> 32 transponders on D10, so far 7 on Spaceway
> 32+7=39, but there is only 32 transponders on the Hr20  :eek2:
> I don't even count the spot beams transponders in it
> The same thing will apply for D11 and the other Spaceway on 99
> Maybe i am missing something


The transponders are used in pairs for national beams and there will be 14 national transponders.

We will not see new satellites, but the two satellite maps at 99° and 103° will suddenly be complete with few or no N/A's showing.

And the firmware in the receivers should not have to change. The receivers will be told that new transponders are available to test with new channel assignments for the new channels as they are turned up.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## sat2631

I would think channel 499 would be the first that is seen. Then they could get feedback on how everyone is receiving it and check if the BBC is working. Maybe on Saturday.


----------



## Jeremy W

sat2631 said:


> I would think channel 499 would be the first that is seen. Then they could get feedback on how everyone is receiving it and check if the BBC is working. Maybe on Saturday.


Not a chance.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Here's the current published data:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07220.65843818 -.00000091 00000-0 10000-3 0 475
> 2 31862 000.1502 285.3625 0048856 025.1453 142.2278 01.00044336 09


Thanks Lefty!. Maybe n2yo.com is monitoring this thread as they were quite misleading posting old data just with a new date every hour! Anyway I just checked them again and they have the same TLE data you posted now being used ( I bet they copied it from you  :



> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07220.65843818 -.00000091 00000-0 10000-3 0 475
> 2 31862 000.1502 285.3625 0048856 025.1453 142.2278 01.00044336 09
> 
> Last time retrieved: August 09 2007 05:00 UTC


With that TLE at 10:38 PM PDT, they have D10 at longitude - 102.74 , Latitude 0.02, altitude 35604.66km ( 22074.88mi) and speed 111.71 km/h69.29 mi/h)

This is looking like they will be ready by Friday!
Edit update: watched a bit more and it is drifting East and at 10:55 PM PDT Longitude is -102.69. The test slot is to be near -102.6 I believe.


----------



## EaglePC

is the sat home to rest yet


----------



## donshan

EaglePC said:


> is the sat home to rest yet


Not yet. Let's see what Lefty comes up with Thursday (tomorrow).


----------



## Dolly

This reminds me of what young children say on trips--"Are we there yet?" :lol:


----------



## betterdan

It also reminds me of another thing children say on trips-- "I gotta pee!"


----------



## John4924

Sixto started this thread on the launch date of 06-July [just over a month ago] and look how many views! Over 58,500 in like 34 days!  This has to be a new world record, no? :lol:

I think we can see where all the interest is presently at dbstalk 

So when this baby is fired up, I guess we move to D11? :lol:

Cheers,
John


----------



## LameLefty

Nothing new yet this morning from NORAD. I suspect we missed a maneuver or two yesterday and/or overnight since the orbital elements were last calculated, but I will monitor Space-Track throughout the day until they issue new ones.


----------



## Steve Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Nothing new yet this morning from NORAD. I suspect we missed a maneuver or two yesterday and/or overnight since the orbital elements were last calculated, but I will monitor Space-Track throughout the day until they issue new ones.


Thanks for all the updates you are doing a great job.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Nothing new yet this morning from NORAD. I suspect we missed a maneuver or two yesterday and/or overnight since the orbital elements were last calculated, but I will monitor Space-Track throughout the day until they issue new ones.


I too want to thank you for explaining a complex subject that was totally new to me. Well done!


----------



## donshan

Dolly said:


> This reminds me of what young children say on trips--"Are we there yet?" :lol:


Yup! However the answer is that "this is just the second leg of a long trip and, we are not there yet!".

Some very important milestones are still ahead before we get our HD pictures, such as "does this bird power up without any problems?"


----------



## LameLefty

Okay - update time. New TLE's today:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07221.12453447 -.00000096 00000-0 10000-3 0 490
2 31862 000.1479 284.0825 0049829 023.7273 312.8653 01.00079126 02

As I type, D10 is at 101.3 and drifting VERRRRRY slowly west. I'm sure there will be more small maneuvers today before the elements are updated again.


----------



## Dolly

donshan said:


> Yup! However the answer is that "this is just the second leg of a long trip and, we are not there yet!".
> 
> Some very important milestones are still ahead before we get our HD pictures, such as "does this bird power up without any problems?"


Oh please don't even think about that :nono2: Can you image what that would be like? It is probably D's biggest nightmare right now :girlscrea And BTW a big thanks to LameLefty for all his hard work on this :sunsmile:


----------



## M3 Pete

John4924 said:


> Sixto started this thread on the launch date of 06-July [just over a month ago] and look how many views! Over 58,500 in like 34 days!  This has to be a new world record, no? :lol:
> 
> I think we can see where all the interest is presently at dbstalk
> 
> So when this baby is fired up, I guess we move to D11? :lol:
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Considering we have been promised more HD channels for the last three years, and I've given D* almost $400 during that time for the privilege of having only a handful of HD channels, I'd say that most of us are very anxious to see where we are at with the new stuff. Especially considering a bunch of us recently got our MPEG4 receivers and 5 LNB dishes, we want to see the payoff!

I check this thread several times a day. Since I rarely have anything to add, I just lurk. But I thank everyone for their contributions, this thread really helps satisfy my curiosity as to the question: "Are we there yet?" 

Or as I used to say as a little kid: "How longer?"


----------



## Ken984

This is current as of Lefty's last TLE calculated at 12:30 pm CDT. Its moving West and slightly South of the equator.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	101.6996° W
Lat	0.0220° S
Alt (km)	36 048.850
Azm	194.5°
Elv	51.3°
RA	07h 49m 57s
Decl	-5° 15' 17"
Range (km)	37 256.773
RRt (km/s)	0.004
Vel (km/s)	3.058
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	170.7° (121)
TA	170.8°
Orbit #	1
Mag (illum)	? (5%)
Constellation	Mon


----------



## LameLefty

Sorry, Ken! New ones already: 

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07221.20079891 .00000000 00000-0 10000-3 0 502
2 31862 000.1486 283.4294 0050387 025.5263 339.1417 01.00058075 14

D10 is at 102.04 W and still drifting westward.


----------



## dwrats_56

In my boredom with the lack of HD programming today, I found this on the FCC website.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-275677A1.txt

The FCC has approved Special Temporary Authority TWICE. here is the important stuff from the above document.

Date Effective: 07/31/2007
Class of Station:
Grant of Authority
Special Temporary Authority
DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
Special Temporary Authority is GRANTED for a period of 60 days beginning July 31, 2007 and ending September 28, 2007.
Points of Communication:
E070123SES-STA-20070625-00862 E
Date Effective: 07/31/2007
Class of Station:
Grant of Authority
Special Temporary Authority
DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
Special Temporary Authority is GRANTED for a period of 60 days beginning July 31, 2007 and ending September 28, 2007.

I was not able to find any details. My uneducated guess is that it has something to do with DIRECTV 10 and SPACEWAY 1. :scratch:


----------



## Ken984

New position with relation to the new TLE at 2:45 pm CDT.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.1894° W
Lat	0.0883° S
Alt (km)	36 042.380
Azm	195.4°
Elv	51.1°
RA	10h 04m 04s
Decl	-5° 19' 46"
Range (km)	37 262.273
RRt (km/s)	-0.005
Vel (km/s)	3.058
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	203.5° (144)
TA	203.3°
Orbit #	2
Mag (illum)	? (3%)


----------



## LameLefty

New TLE's AGAIN today - Boeing is keeping NORAD busy today. 

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07221.54785944 -.00000098 00000-0 10000-3 0 500
2 31862 000.1557 283.4187 0040219 022.7594 106.9644 01.00103549 01

Current position is 102.42W and still moving westward.


----------



## VeniceDre

LameLefty said:


> New TLE's AGAIN today - Boeing is keeping NORAD busy today.
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07221.54785944 -.00000098 00000-0 10000-3 0 500
> 2 31862 000.1557 283.4187 0040219 022.7594 106.9644 01.00103549 01
> 
> Current position is 102.42W and still moving westward.


I know there are differences in what www.n2yo.com is reporting but should they be discounted?

They also had D10 at 102.42W moving west at about 68 mph... now at 102.49 with speed at 60 mph and continuing to decrease.


----------



## donshan

VeniceDre said:


> I know there are differences in what www.n2yo.com is reporting but should they be discounted?
> 
> They also had D10 at 102.42W moving west at about 68 mph... now at 102.49 with speed at 60 mph and continuing to decrease.


I am regarding n2yo as "approximate".

After some searching I discovered the "details" link for D10 on n2yo.com lists the TLE data they are using, and the time updates every hour, but the data do NOT change. It is not clear when they update their TLE data, so I feel n2yo.com gives an "approximate" status, primarily since the D10 orbit is being tweaked just a little each time. Once last night n2yo updated their TLE data to match Lefty's latest TLE data and then I felt better about their site.

As of just now their TLE data is old, so IMHO I would say n2yo data is accurate to state that D10 is around 102 W and moving West, but we should discount the decimals. They will probably have the data close some of the time, but inaccurate at other times. If they update the TLE data it will be different.

I have a science career background (energy R&D) but am just learning about this orbit stuff so I will just wait for Lefty or Ken.


----------



## LameLefty

VeniceDre said:


> I know there are differences in what www.n2yo.com is reporting but should they be discounted?
> 
> They also had D10 at 102.42W moving west at about 68 mph... now at 102.49 with speed at 60 mph and continuing to decrease.


Unless they maintain their own data sets, the source of the data they are using is the same as everyone else's: NORAD. Now, there ARE some seriously-dedicated folks who make detailed, meticulous visual (and sometimes radio) observations of satellites and derive oribital elements themselves for fun - Google for a fellow named Ted Molzcan and his buddies - but NORAD does it with big radars, computerized optical trackers, etc., and publishes it (for unclassified stuff) several times a day. Sites like Celes-Trak have permission to republish it but I don't know how often he updates his info - once a day or twice or whatever. If you sign up for a Space-Track account, you can cut out the middlemen and get the data to plug into your own sat-tracking programs (and there are many available).

In any case, click on the details for the D10 on the n2y0 site and you can see while element set (elset) they are using. The ones I posted a little while ago are the latest available from NORAD.


----------



## harsh

dwrats_56 said:


> In my boredom with the lack of HD programming today, I found this on the FCC website.


I'm pretty sure that these are a summary of the STAs for Spaceway 1 and DIRECTV 10 that we're familiar with.


----------



## MrDad0330

Can it be assumed that they have deployed the huge solar panels yet to power up our bird? Or do they have to make the final tweeks? I am getting excited again after a week or so of being rather numb..... it looks like we are just about there....
Thanks to all of you for making this so interesting...for sure D never tells us much..


----------



## Tom Robertson

MrDad0330 said:


> Can it be assumed that they have deployed the huge solar panels yet to power up our bird? Or do they have to make the final tweeks? I am getting excited again after a week or so of being rather numb..... it looks like we are just about there....
> Thanks to all of you for making this so interesting...for sure D never tells us much..


I do not know for certain, but my expectations (ie guesses) are that the solar panels and transponder reflectors have been deployed and even somewhat tested. Full power testing and edge verification of the national and spot beams can't be tested until the satellite is in final orbit. But if all the controls have been thoroughly checked out, these last bits could be fairly quick.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Sixto

Chase Carey today: "Looking toward the second half of 2007, clearly our headline event will be our launch of really what will be the best and largest selection of HD channels that customers ever imagined, which will really enable us to leapfrog our competition. *Everything is going well with our new satellite*, which launched about a month or so ago.

Today we have agreements in place with about 90 channels, and continuing to work on more so we are adding to that. We will launch with an HD package with over 70 channels around the end of the third quarter. Again, the difference there is some of the channels need a couple more months to get their HD stream online, and we do expect over the coming months, between the end of the third quarter and the end of the year, we'll get to the 100 channels that we talked about. So we will launch with really a fabulous HD package, the 70-plus channels and then over a couple of months build to the 100 channels that really we think will define us in a unique way competitively in the marketplace. "

http://media.seekingalpha.com/article/44085


----------



## PoitNarf

I'm liking what I'm hearing


----------



## LameLefty

102.6 at this very moment, assuming the TLE's are still accurate. 

Of course, the reality is that there have probably been a number of small burns this evening or will be starting right around now, to finalize that orbit.


----------



## jrodfoo

right on schedule


----------



## doctor j

www.n2yo.com 
has spaceway 1 at 102.89
this should be the temp position in the FCC STA of 102.885
D-10 should be ready to drop into its geostationary position to begin testing
hopefully on time tomorrow!!!

Doctor j


----------



## VicF

"We will launch with an HD package "... I hope they are not planning to try jacking the price way up just to get the HD. That would be a real piss off that would cost them customers.


----------



## davring

D* stated in a press release that there would be no immediate price increase for the HD package. In reality I would not be surprised to see an increase next year.


----------



## tonyn

Do any of you folks know who does the Telemetry Tracking and Control of the D* fleet of satellites? Is Boeing controlling D-10 now, and will they keep TT&C of it on-going? Is Hughes involved at all?

Tony


----------



## Dolly

PoitNarf said:


> I'm liking what I'm hearing


I love what I'm hearing :heart: :sunsmile:


----------



## harsh

davring said:


> D* stated in a press release that there would be no immediate price increase for the HD package. In reality I would not be surprised to see an increase next year.


Perhaps they'll follow in the footsteps of E* and have two HD packages: grandfathering the current HD package and a more expensive MPEG4 HD package.

If they don't the MPEG2 crowd will be howling at the top of their lungs.


----------



## harsh

tonyn said:


> Do any of you folks know who does the Telemetry Tracking and Control of the D* fleet of satellites?


I think I read where D* does their own TT&C of the satellites that are in service.


----------



## Tom Robertson

tonyn said:


> Do any of you folks know who does the Telemetry Tracking and Control of the D* fleet of satellites? Is Boeing controlling D-10 now, and will they keep TT&C of it on-going? Is Hughes involved at all?
> 
> Tony


Welcome to the forums, tonyn! :welcome_s

Harsh is correct, once Boeing's initial deployment and testing are done, DIRECTV handles the T&C. Often there is a press announcement indicating successful deployment and turnover to DIRECTV; I expect we'll see that in another week or two.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ed Campbell

VicF said:


> I hope they are not planning to try jacking the price way up just to get the HD. That would be a real piss off that would cost them customers.


I've asked that question a couple of times of CSR's and Retention and always get the answer that there is no plan to increase the charge for HD access at this time.


----------



## bonscott87

harsh said:


> Perhaps they'll follow in the footsteps of E* and have two HD packages: grandfathering the current HD package and a more expensive MPEG4 HD package.
> 
> If they don't the MPEG2 crowd will be howling at the top of their lungs.


Why bother? They will be shutting MPEG2 HD down by middle to end of next year anyway so why bother with separate packages and what not. Doesn't make any sesne.


----------



## EaglePC

102.65

roughly short maybe move a little more today


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> 102.65
> 
> roughly short maybe move a little more today


Let me drive this thing it will be in position within 10 seconds:lol:


----------



## Jazzmo

I don't know much about how this stuff works, but when the bird is in its final location, will the HR20 satellite signals show that we are getting a signal from it right away? Will the BB Converter channel no longer show searching for satellite as well?


----------



## PoitNarf

Jazzmo said:


> I don't know much about how this stuff works, but when the bird is in its final location, will the HR20 satellite signals show that we are getting a signal from it right away? Will the BB Converter channel no longer show searching for satellite as well?


No, probably not the second it slides into it's final position. You'll know when it's live guys, especially if you check this site often. We're in the home stretch, won't be much longer now


----------



## Ken984

No it will take a while before they turn it all on and test it, and then they have to move it to its final location, so we won't see any signals from it till the very end.


----------



## wilmot3

there won't be any signal during testing then? If not than how do they test it, different signal than normal?


----------



## EaglePC

its going to home to rest - by the end of the day FRIDAY we need a 10th of a move,maybe not to like to Sunday


----------



## n2deep2bn

EaglePC said:


> its going to home to rest - by the end of the day FRIDAY we need a 10th of a move,maybe not to like to Sunday


What? What are you saying here makes no sense?


----------



## wilmot3

what will the final position be?


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> No it will take a while before they turn it all on and test it, and then they have to move it to its final location, so we won't see any signals from it till the very end.


I agree. D10 is the first D* satellite of this specific design to be launched . First, I expect Boeing has a long list of items to verify to check that in orbit performance operational details are "nominal" before turning D10 over to the D* testing staff who then can begin checking a ton of details too.

As I understand it ( and others chime in too) Boeing has a warranty in their contract with D* to deliver a working D 10 in orbit. Boeing will want to check everything out to be sure they have met all the terms of their contract. Only then does D* get to start configuring it for HD service. Assuming there are no glitches they can put "OK"s in every check box soon.

Everyone wants flawless HD channels in September. We need patience


----------



## Ken984

Its a 702 bus so its a known design, it shouldn't be a lot of extra testing for Boeing (at least I hope not!).

The sat will test at 102.6 and it will then move to 102.8 for final broadcasting position.


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> Its a 702 bus so its a known design, it shouldn't be a lot of extra testing for Boeing (at least I hope not!).
> 
> The sat will test at 102.6 and it will then move to 102.8 for final broadcasting position.


Yes, I just meant they need to measure all the systems and document a number of things for QA purposes, and hopefully all of them are exactly as expected. There is big money involved here and QA procedures and documentation take some time. Boeing would want their own set of performance data, and that will take some time. They may already have a lot of that data collected. In short terms Boeing wants to get final payment and no legal disputes over performance.


----------



## liverpool

Don't forget that the launch was delayed by 2 weeks for extra testing hopefully this might mean less testing needs to be done now.


----------



## harsh

bonscott87 said:


> Why bother? They will be shutting MPEG2 HD down by middle to end of next year anyway so why bother with separate packages and what not. Doesn't make any sesne.


It makes sense if there is a substantial population of MPEG2-only HD receivers left in the wild.

Where did you find the MPEG2 HD shutdown window?


----------



## harsh

liverpool said:


> Don't forget that the launch was delayed by 2 weeks for extra testing hopefully this might mean less testing needs to be done now.


The launch was delayed because Boeing was late to deliver the goods.


----------



## RAD

wilmot3 said:


> there won't be any signal during testing then? If not than how do they test it, different signal than normal?


OK, just a guess here, but they could be using the 'production' signals for their testing but just not tell the MPEG4 receivers to look for those transponders. If you notice, the sat signal test doesn't show 0 for all those other transponders, just NA, bet when they turn them on for production those NA will be changed to numbers.


----------



## donshan

RAD said:


> OK, just a guess here, but they could be using the 'production' signals for their testing but just not tell the MPEG4 receivers to look for those transponders. If you notice, the sat signal test doesn't show 0 for all those other transponders, just NA, bet when they turn them on for production those NA will be changed to numbers.


 I agree. As I see it, D* already instantly controls every channel on each customer's receiver in order to activate just the specific channels they are paying for and to control things by zip codes. It should be very easy for them to just block all the new HD channels to our receivers until they are completely ready to send out a signal to activate them. They should be able to fully test each channel on their systems without allowing our receivers to be "authorized" to receive them. Software is very flexible.


----------



## Tom_S

harsh said:


> It makes sense if there is a substantial population of MPEG2-only HD receivers left in the wild.
> 
> Where did you find the MPEG2 HD shutdown window?


I'm sure D* wants all those old receivers swapped out. If they broadcast MPEG2(For which there is no space left anyway) it will only prolong it. They want that bandwidth back. They need it for SD(Of which there are DEFINITELY a substantial amount of receivers left) .


----------



## LameLefty

New TLEs today, finally:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07222.45054483 -.00000108 00000-0 10000-3 0 511
2 31862 000.1449 283.3735 0035700 021.6880 073.4683 01.00175095 369

D10 is currently at 102.57. Surprisingly (to me, anyway), they have not yet fully circularized the orbit.


----------



## Ken984

Yeah I would have thought they would have it parked by now. Getting closer though, per v ap is down to 300km or so.

Name	DIRECTV
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-10 10:48:47
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination	0.145
RA of A. Node	283.373
Eccentricity	0.0035700
Argument of Perigee	21.688
Revs per day	1.00175095
Period	23h 57m 28s (1437.47 min)
Semi-major axis	42 192 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 663 x 35 964 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	73.468
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	51 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

Current position as of 3pm CDT

1DIRECTV
Lon	102.5365° W
Lat	0.0923° S
Alt (km)	35 941.860
Azm	196.0°
Elv	51.0°
RA	10h 22m 18s
Decl	-5° 20' 51"
Range (km)	37 168.015
RRt (km/s)	-0.005
Vel (km/s)	3.064
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	212.0° (150)
TA	211.8°
Orbit #	36
Mag (illum)	? (4%)


----------



## RobertE

PoitNarf said:


> No, probably not the second it slides into it's final position. You'll know when it's live guys, especially if you check this site often. We're in the home stretch, won't be much longer now


Oh yeah, you'll be able to tell for sure when it goes live. How? If your not a member, you see a lot of "server too busy" messages. :grin:

PSA - Spend the $15 and be a member.


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> Yeah I would have thought they would have it parked by now. Getting closer though, per v ap is down to 300km or so.


I have been wondering for several days why it was not "parked" already since the 30 day on orbit testing program approved by the FCC was supposed to begin today. I am sure they want to meet that September announced date.

Questions if anyone has info :-

Do the small orbit corrections still remaining matter right now ?

Or stated differently, is the remaining location drift small enough that they could proceed with up-linkdown-link testing of all the systems and transponders etc. or is more positional stability required.

Perhaps they could finalize the orbit while testing?

Just curious if this remaining small orbit issue might lead to a startup delay of the national channels that cover the whole USA.


----------



## lwilli201

First off, no testing can be done until the solar panels are deployed. I have not heard that that has happened. The maneuvering fuel on board has to last 15 years. Using to much, to fast could reduce the lifetime of the sat. Getting the sat into position using the least amount of fuel is important. D11 will be in position faster because it will be an equatorial launch.


----------



## MattWarner

lwilli201 said:


> First off, no testing can be done until the solar panels are deployed. I have not heard that that has happened.


Good question... Shouldn't the panels have deployed by now? I mean, has this thing been running on batteries for almost 30 days? I mean, it isn't using a whole bunch of power to be in 'safe' mode, but it is running receive and transmit radios to relay telemetry to the ground right?

-Matt


----------



## M3 Pete

lwilli201 said:


> First off, no testing can be done until the solar panels are deployed. I have not heard that that has happened. The maneuvering fuel on board has to last 15 years. Using to much, to fast could reduce the lifetime of the sat. Getting the sat into position using the least amount of fuel is important. D11 will be in position faster because it will be an equatorial launch.


a friend of mine works in aerospace and designed some experiments for a military satellite. He told me the batteries only last about 30 days (or maybe less) without solar panels. Could they really be relying on battery power all this time?

I'll admit that D10 is likely to be a very different design, and I'm no spacecraft engineer. I'll also admit that my friend's satellite never "woke up" after launch, and thus he launched a very expensive rock into orbit. :nono2: (this is why he told me that the batteries only last a short time without solar power, as the chance of "awakening" the satellite grew dimmer as time went on)

Obviously they have control over D10, so it's "awake." My only question is whether there could be any difficulty in deploying the panels if they have not done so yet.


----------



## sat2631

D10 first reached an orbit with less than 0.2 inclination after 11 days on Jul 18 so it should have deployed the solar panels soon after that.


----------



## computersecguy

Are we there yet? This is starting to feel like watching a pot boil...


----------



## Dolly

computersecguy said:


> Are we there yet? This is starting to feel like watching a pot boil...


You can't do that because a watched pot never boils


----------



## tpayne105

I am doing the signal strength and on the 99 satellite, I get the following...

6 total transponders at 99(b)

1 -8 0 0 0 72 0 64


on the 103 satellite, I get the following:

7 total transponders at 103 (a)

1-8 98 0 89 0 96 0 N/A N/A
9-16 all N/A

17-24 0 Than all N/A....

Does this mean anything???

ok..I think it doesn't...just read about the spot beams....guess we are all a bit excited...LOL


----------



## computersecguy

Dolly said:


> You can't do that because a watched pot never boils


but it might be getting close.. I know that n2yo isn't the greatest but it currently shows the bird on the equator at 102.87... but the speed still seems to be hot at just over 43mph.. could this be the final pass to hit the target?


----------



## Ken984

The TLE that they are using is old, I am sure they have new TLEs out by now, but I don't have access we need Lefty to chime in with them.


----------



## love that tv

have they begun testing? because MHD is now off the guide, so im assuming that it has been moved over to D10 sat for testing


----------



## Interceptor

Ken984 said:


> The TLE that they are using is old, I am sure they have new TLEs out by now, but I don't have access we need Lefty to chime in with them.


Latest Elset:

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07223.33343847 -.00000098 00000-0 10000-3 0 523
2 31862 000.1428 283.9474 0021190 022.3803 030.4956 01.00119222 369

I did notice one interesting thing. Space-Track updated the elset at least three times on Thursday, but only once yesterday, and only once so far today. Must have been expecting more adjustments on Thursday.


----------



## donshan

The fact that the TLEs are still changing indicates to me that "we are not there yet", AND they are working on it so we need to be patient.

I was Google searching for any Boeing info about what is involved during their on-orbit testing phase of other satellite launches and found the link below where Boeing announced the official transfer of Spaceway 2 over to DirecTV on April 19, 2006 at the completion of testing. I noticed that the on-orbit testing phase lasted 5 months as Spaceway 2 was launched on November 16, 2005.

So that indicates that the announced schedule for D!0 being operational by mid September is quite fast. We should be glad D10 isn't taking 5 months.

http://www.boeing.com/ids/news/2006/q2/060419c_nr.html



> ST. LOUIS, April 19, 2006 -- Boeing [NYSE:BA] today announced the handover of the Spaceway F2 satellite to DIRECTV, Inc., the second of four Boeing satellites that will provide DIRECTV with the capacity to broadcast hundreds of local and national high definition (HD) channels, positioning DIRECTV as the nation's leading provider of HD programming.
> 
> Spaceway F2 joins its sister satellite, Spaceway F1, as part of a massive capacity expansion that will enable DIRECTV to deliver more than 1,500 local HD channels and more than 150 national HD channels by the end of 2007. The Spaceway F2 satellite began broadcasting local HD programming to DIRECTV customers in eight new markets today and will begin broadcasting to an additional 16 markets by mid-year. DIRECTV launched 12 HD local markets last year on Spaceway F1.
> 
> "Spaceway F2 has successfully completed all on-orbit testing and is starting service across the United States," said Stephen T. O'Neill, president of Boeing Satellite Systems International, Inc. "The satellite joins the Boeing-built Spaceway F1 satellite to dramatically expand digital and HD programming. Together, the Spaceway satellites are the vanguard of DIRECTV's new fleet of spacecraft and include advanced capabilities such as adaptable spot beams and reconfigurable routing."
> 
> Launched by Arianespace on Nov. 16, 2005, from the Guiana Space Center in Kourou, French Guiana, Spaceway F2 is the seventh Boeing-built satellite for DIRECTV. Boeing is building DIRECTV 10, DIRECTV 11 and an on-ground spare that will enable DIRECTV to significantly expand its delivery of local and national HD programming to customers across the continental United States, Hawaii and Alaska in 2007.


One other item I found was an SEC filing by Boeing on their launch of the Sirius satellite radio bird. The on-orbit test plan was Appendix D, but had been deleted to keep it proprietary. Keeping on-orbit testing details private is probably Boeing policy. I did note that the "on-orbit test plan" was 78 pages long.

So, I am as anxious as anyone else for news, but am not surprised that we are not getting much right now. If we don't hear something by September 15 I will start to worry.


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> The fact that the TLEs are still changing indicates to me that "we are not there yet", AND they are working on it so we need to be patient.
> 
> I was Google searching for any Boeing info about what is involved during their on-orbit testing phase of other satellite launches and found the link below where Boeing announced the official transfer of Spaceway 2 over to DirecTV on April 19, 2006 at the completion of testing. I noticed that the on-orbit testing phase lasted 5 months as Spaceway 2 was launched on November 16, 2005.
> 
> So that indicates that the announced schedule for D!0 being operational by mid September is quite fast. We should be glad D10 isn't taking 5 months.
> ....
> 
> One other item I found was an SEC filing by Boeing on their launch of the Sirius satellite radio bird. The on-orbit test plan was Appendix D, but had been deleted to keep it proprietary. Keeping on-orbit testing details private is probably Boeing policy. I did note that the "on-orbit test plan" was 78 pages long.
> 
> So, I am as anxious as anyone else for news, but am not surprised that we are not getting much right now. If we don't hear something by September 15 I will start to worry.


The Spaceways are unique satellites, the first if a new family, and have very innovative features that needed more testing. D10 and D11 are much more conventional satellites with well known and well understood technology so should be testable in the 1 to 2 month range assuming all goes well. (And the recent adjustments to the calendars moving things up, indicates things are going well.)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## donshan

Tom Robertson said:


> The Spaceways are unique satellites, the first if a new family, and have very innovative features that needed more testing. D10 and D11 are much more conventional satellites with well known and well understood technology so should be testable in the 1 to 2 month range assuming all goes well. (And the recent adjustments to the calendars moving things up, indicates things are going well.)
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the added info and I agree things are going well so far. My experience with D* since 1999 is that there never seems to be any specific date notifications of new channels. The new channels just pop on suddenly and I expect that to happen heretoo.

Edit: Do D10 and D11 have the same spot beam LIL technology as Spaceway 1 and 2 used? D!0 and D11 are the first MPEG-4 aren't they? Or did the Spaceways start MPEG-4?


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> Thanks for the added info and I agree things are going well so far. My experience with D* since 1999 is that there never seems to be any specific date notifications of new channels. The new channels just pop on suddenly and I expect that to happen heretoo.
> 
> Edit: Do D10 and D11 have the same spot beam LIL technology as Spaceway 1 and 2 used? D!0 and D11 are the first MPEG-4 aren't they? Or did the Spaceways start MPEG-4?


Actually D8 and D9 were likely the first MPEG4 satellites, but are only used for backhaulling local channels to the broadcast centers.

S1 and S2 were the first MPEG4 to the homes and only via spotbeams. While technically capable of CONUS coverage, it takes too much power away from everything else.

D10 and D11 are very much able to do spotbeams, tho via more conventional Travelling Wave Tube Amplifier transponder (TWTA), not the really cool phased array that the Spacesways use. (The Spaceways can adjust the size, shape, strength, and number of spotbeams instantly on demand!)

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## qlanus

Interceptor said:


> Latest Elset:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07223.33343847 -.00000098 00000-0 10000-3 0 523
> 2 31862 000.1428 283.9474 0021190 022.3803 030.4956 01.00119222 369
> 
> I did notice one interesting thing. Space-Track updated the elset at least three times on Thursday, but only once yesterday, and only once so far today. Must have been expecting more adjustments on Thursday.


FWIW - I use a satellite tracking program, Orbitron, which automatically pulls down updated TLE files. Today is the first time I've seen Directv 10 appeared in the 'geo' TLE file automatically.

Perhaps we're now 'there'.


----------



## RAD

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually D8 and D9 were likely the first MPEG4 satellites, but are only used for backhaulling local channels to the broadcast centers.
> Cheers,
> Tom


Tom, did you really mean to say that since there is no such thing as an MPEG4 satellite.


----------



## Tom Robertson

RAD said:


> Tom, did you really mean to say that since there is no such thing as an MPEG4 satellite.


You are correct at the detail level, but step up 5,000 feet higher and my loose use of terminology isn't so inaccurate. 

Yes, MPEG4 encoding can be utilized on any of the satellites. But DIRECTV has only used it to the home on S1 and S2 with a soon on D10. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Interceptor

qlanus said:


> FWIW - I use a satellite tracking program, Orbitron, which automatically pulls down updated TLE files. Today is the first time I've seen Directv 10 appeared in the 'geo' TLE file automatically.
> 
> Perhaps we're now 'there'.


I noticed that, too. However, the data that Orbitron is pulling from celestrak and Space-Track through the update feature is still the data from yesterday. If you go directly to Space-Track's website and look it up manually, it will give the current set. I've been manually inserting the data into Orbitron.

Mike


----------



## Ken984

With that latest TLE eccentricity is way down. Ap v per is down to less than 200km now..getting closer..

Name	DIRECTV10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-11 08:00:09
Orbit # at Epoch	36
Inclination	0.143
RA of A. Node	283.947
Eccentricity	0.0021190
Argument of Perigee	22.380
Revs per day	1.00119222
Period	23h 58m 17s (1438.28 min)
Semi-major axis	42 208 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 740 x 35 919 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	30.496
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	52 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## LameLefty

Yeah, Ken's right - not "there" yet but getting closer. A true GSO will have zero difference between apogee and perigee, or very very close within the limits of reason - Earth isn't exactly circular and there are some masscons (mass concentrations) at various points inside the earth that create very minor perturbations in orbits due to the tiny variance in gravity. But anyway, once the eccentricity drops to about 50 times lower (four leading zeros rather than two), we'll be "there" in all practical sense.

I will also note, however, that the recent tweaks to the orbit are occurring in such a way as to keep the sat oscillating relatively close to it's intended test and final slots. I suspect a lot of basic testing is already going on.

P.S. Sorry for being out of the loop on updates today - my daugher's select soccer team had their first games this weekend in our lovely 102 degree heat today and we just got home. Ugh.


----------



## MikeR

LameLefty said:


> P.S. Sorry for being out of the loop on updates today - my daugher's select soccer team had their first games this weekend in our lovely 102 degree heat today and we just got home. Ugh.


Thanks lefty for the update - I feel like my 4 year old - "are we there yet"? every 2 minutes.

Kick back and enjoy the meteor shower.


----------



## P Smith

donshan said:


> Thanks for the added info and I agree things are going well so far. My experience with D* since 1999 is that there never seems to be any specific date notifications of new channels. The new channels just pop on suddenly and I expect that to happen heretoo.
> 
> Edit: Do D10 and D11 have the same spot beam LIL technology as Spaceway 1 and 2 used? D!0 and D11 are the first MPEG-4 aren't they? Or did the Spaceways start MPEG-4?


Video compression technology have nothing to do with spacecrafts or RF equipment.


----------



## DawgLink

I have not the slightest clue what 99% is being said but I did see "almost there" at one point so that's good


----------



## Dolly

DawgLink said:


> I have not the slightest clue what 99% is being said but I did see "almost there" at one point so that's good


Congrats you are 1 percentage point lower than I am  But like you I understood "almost there" :sunsmile:


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> Yes, MPEG4 encoding can be utilized on any of the satellites. But DIRECTV has only used it to the home on S1 and S2 with a soon on D10.


I'm glad you corrected that Tom, as I was planning on correcting you since DirecTV's first use of MPEG4 encoding was actually from one of the satellites at either 101, 110 or 119.

However, like you said, their first use of MPEG4 encoding to the home was done via spot-beams from the first SpaceWay to Detroit, and the first use of MPEG4 encoding was only available at CES via a SPECIAL DirecTV receiver!

~Alan


----------



## EaglePC

My Reciever is funny H20 - 600 Software X014
Satellite 101* (A) : OK
Satellite 119* (B): OK
Satellite 110* (C): OK
Satellite 99* NETWORK 10): FAILED "is the the new sat D 10" ???
Satellite 99* NETWORK 11): OK
Satellite103* NETWORK 14): FAILED
Satellite 103* NETWORK 15): FAILED


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan Gordon said:


> I'm glad you corrected that Tom, as I was planning on correcting you since DirecTV's first use of MPEG4 encoding was actually from one of the satellites at either 101, 110 or 119.
> 
> However, like you said, their first use of MPEG4 encoding to the home was done via spot-beams from the first SpaceWay to Detroit, and the first use of MPEG4 encoding was only available at CES via a SPECIAL DirecTV receiver!
> 
> ~Alan


That was the thrust of my first post. It was D8 at 101 but for backhauling purposes. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## donshan

P Smith said:


> Video compression technology have nothing to do with spacecrafts or RF equipment.


Thanks, I appreciate your post and still have a lot to learn about how this works. I do video editing and basically understand how MPEG codecs work in a PC. but almost nothing about what goes on electrically in the satellite.

It would then be much like broadcast HDTV then, except in different RF bands. The digital data in whatever form (MPEG-x) is encoded by DirecTV on the ground before the uplink to the satellite and then it is rebroadcast on the satellite's RF frequency to our dish for decoding in our receivers? ( and pardon if I don't have the terminology just right )


----------



## Alan Gordon

Tom Robertson said:


> That was the thrust of my first post. It was D8 at 101 but for backhauling purposes.


Actually, I was referring to:

DIRECTV Demonstrates World's First Live MPEG-4 AVC HD Transmission via Satellite; Advanced Transmission and Compression Technology will Support Massive Expansion of Programming

That was January 6th, 2005. DirecTV 8 was launched in May of 2005 (per your "DirecTV and KA" thread)... but as I said before, it was not delivered to subscriber's homes... only to CES.

~Alan


----------



## Ken984

EaglePC said:


> My Reciever is funny H20 - 600 Software X014
> Satellite 101* (A) : OK
> Satellite 119* (B): OK
> Satellite 110* (C): OK
> Satellite 99* NETWORK 10): FAILED "is the the new sat D 10" ???
> Satellite 99* NETWORK 11): OK
> Satellite103* NETWORK 14): FAILED
> Satellite 103* NETWORK 15): FAILED


D10 is going to 103 actually 102.8. H20 has had some issues with the tests on the KA sats so you may want to check your software version and see if its one of the known issues.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Alan Gordon said:


> Actually, I was referring to:
> 
> DIRECTV Demonstrates World's First Live MPEG-4 AVC HD Transmission via Satellite; Advanced Transmission and Compression Technology will Support Massive Expansion of Programming
> 
> That was January 6th, 2005. DirecTV 8 was launched in May of 2005 (per your "DirecTV and KA" thread)... but as I said before, it was not delivered to subscriber's homes... only to CES.
> 
> ~Alan


Ok,  I'll accept the update. In fact, I'll work your post into the KA thread. Thanks.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## n2deep2bn

Everything looks good. Testing should be going on now.


----------



## EaglePC

n2deep2bn said:


> Everything looks good. Testing should be going on now.


OK the BIRD is where it should be finally.
lets lock this thread and start a new D10 Test Results Thread:hurah:


----------



## Interceptor

EaglePC said:


> OK the BIRD is where it should be finally.
> lets lock this thread and start a new D10 Test Results Thread:hurah:


I don't think we're exactly there yet. But, I'm really interested in seeing what tweaks they made today. Still looking for another elset.


----------



## GeorgeLV

EaglePC said:


> My Reciever is funny H20 - 600 Software X014
> Satellite 101* (A) : OK
> Satellite 119* (B): OK
> Satellite 110* (C): OK
> Satellite 99* NETWORK 10): FAILED "is the the new sat D 10" ???
> Satellite 99* NETWORK 11): OK
> Satellite103* NETWORK 14): FAILED
> Satellite 103* NETWORK 15): FAILED


You are using an old software release that groups the transponders differently than the current terminology. The software version 0x2024 is currently being deployed on the H20-600 so check you signal strengths again once you receive the update.

Currently Spaceway S1 services the 103 orbital position on transponders 1-6 and 17.
Currently Spaceway S2 services the 99 orbital position on transponders 1-6.

The new satellite DirecTV 10 will service the 103 orbital position, and would presumably carry programming on the inactive transponders.


----------



## EaglePC

GeorgeLV said:


> You are using an old software release that groups the transponders differently than the current terminology. The software version 0x2024 is currently being deployed on the H20-600 so check you signal strengths again once you receive the update.
> 
> Currently Spaceway S1 services the 103 orbital position on transponders 1-6 and 17.
> Currently Spaceway S2 services the 99 orbital position on transponders 1-6.
> 
> The new satellite DirecTV 10 will service the 103 orbital position, and would presumably carry programming on the inactive transponders.


08/12/2007 1:17AM
I forced updated reset reciever 0,2,4,6,8 The software still is version 0x0F14


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> 08/12/2007 1:17AM
> I forced updated reset reciever 0,2,4,6,8 The software still is version 0x0F14


Yes, cause there hasn't been any new NR for the H20 yet. There was a CE for the H20-100 earlier in the weekend, but those windows have passed.

The bird will be online soon guys, I don't know why some of you salivate about being able to do a signal strength test against it. We probably won't be able to do that until the end of the month anyways. Patience, we're almost there


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I sure hope a NR update shows up for the H20-600 some time soon......


----------



## hdtvfan0001

DawgLink said:


> I have not the slightest clue what 99% is being said but I did see "almost there" at one point so that's good





n2deep2bn said:


> Everything looks good. Testing should be going on now.


They had me at *hello*. :lol:


----------



## MattWarner

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They had me at *hello*. :lol:


That gave me an idea. How about when D10 gets into final position and a couple of days before they light up the new HD channels, they make channel 499 say "Hi! I'm D10, the new HD DirecTV satellite. I just moved into the neighborhood and thought I'd come by to introduce myself."



-Matt


----------



## GeorgeLV

EaglePC said:


> 08/12/2007 1:17AM
> I forced updated reset reciever 0,2,4,6,8 The software still is version 0x0F14





PoitNarf said:


> Yes, cause there hasn't been any new NR for the H20 yet. There was a CE for the H20-100 earlier in the weekend, but those windows have passed.


0x2024 for H20-600 is a national rollout release. It has been deployed to the west coast and assuming a major problem isn't discovered, everybody should be getting it eventually. I you missed the CE release of this version, you will not be able to force the update, it will just show up when DirecTV decides to push the update to your region.

See http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94224 for more details.


----------



## PoitNarf

GeorgeLV said:


> 0x2024 for H20-600 is a national rollout release. It has been deployed to the west coast and assuming a major problem isn't discovered, everybody should be getting it eventually. I you missed the CE release of this version, you will not be able to force the update, it will just show up when DirecTV decides to push the update to your region.


It's rare to catch me off guard about something like this :lol:

Thanks for the correction 

Anyway, what's the latest word on D10? When do you sat tracking junkies expect this puppy to be parked for testing finally?


----------



## Interceptor

Alright everybody!

Check out today's elset for DTV10!

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07224.32450678 -.00000111 00000-0 10000-3 0 531
2 31862 000.1400 284.1947 0015077 024.4252 025.7406 01.00221204 377 

23 hr. 56 min. period. And less than 127 km perigee x apogee
Looks like we might be there! Or at least darn close!    

Mike


----------



## houskamp

ok guys, who's got the extra dish so we can see when they start testing? :lol:


----------



## Ken984

Thanks Interceptor, yep its getting much closer...latest info.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.9848° W
Lat	0.0811° S
Alt (km)	35 859.290
Azm	196.8°
Elv	50.9°
RA	09h 59m 52s
Decl	-5° 20' 43"
Range (km)	37 092.546
RRt (km/s)	-0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.070
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	202.7° (144)
TA	202.7°
Orbit #	37
Mag (illum)	? (2%)


Name	DIRECTV10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-12 07:47:17
Orbit # at Epoch	37
Inclination	0.140
RA of A. Node	284.195
Eccentricity	0.0015077
Argument of Perigee	24.425
Revs per day	1.00221204
Period	23h 56m 49s (1436.82 min)
Semi-major axis	42 179 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 737 x 35 864 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	25.741
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	53 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## LameLefty

Beat me to it. :lol:


----------



## bobnielsen

houskamp said:


> ok guys, who's got the extra dish so we can see when they start testing? :lol:


It should be within the beamwidth of the dish now, but seeing anything might be difficult because the software is set to N/A for all of the transponders except 17. A signal on that one might start showing up, however. I believe that the reason 17 is there is to enable the channel 499 BBC test (which gives a searching message because there isn't anythong to receive yet. It would be nice if they actually uplinked some sort of notice to 499 declaring the BBC works! A software update will be needed before the receivers will show any other transponders.


----------



## Tom Robertson

bobnielsen said:


> It should be within the beamwidth of the dish now, but seeing anything might be difficult because the software is set to N/A for all of the transponders except 17. A signal on that one might start showing up, however. I believe that the reason 17 is there is to enable the channel 499 BBC test (which gives a searching message because there isn't anythong to receive yet. It would be nice if they actually uplinked some sort of notice to 499 declaring the BBC works! A software update will be needed before the receivers will show any other transponders.


If by software update you mean a fresh download of the firmware, that would be incorrect. If you mean sending updates for the mapping of the satellite transponders, then you would be correct. The receivers just need to be told what new transponders are available for the existing satellite locations and then mappings of channels numbers to transponders.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

are we there yet ?


----------



## generalpatton78

EaglePC said:


> are we there yet ?


Were looking for parking.


----------



## EaglePC

generalpatton78 said:


> Were looking for parking.


almost @ the movies


----------



## generalpatton78

Tom Robertson said:


> If by software update you mean a fresh download of the firmware, that would be incorrect. If you mean sending updates for the mapping of the satellite transponders, then you would be correct. The receivers just need to be told what new transponders are available for the existing satellite locations and then mappings of channels numbers to transponders.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


What should we be looking for? I'm getting 3 90 somethings on 99b and some 80s on 103a. I don't have locals over sat but have been told Saint Louis spot beams hit my area.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The just barely turned adult grandkids can wait long enough now. The 9year old grandkid could but would fidget a lot. The 5 year old and 2 year old, not a chance.

And their grandfather is about to start fidgeting himself--but I've waited much longer than they have already. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

generalpatton78 said:


> What should we be looking for? I'm getting 3 90 somethings on 99b and some 80s on 103a. I don't have locals over sat but have been told Saint Louis spot beams hit my area.


same here singnals ohmy popping up everywhere 99 and 103

are they here yet.....there coming
:hurah:


----------



## Tom Robertson

generalpatton78 said:


> What should we be looking for? I'm getting 3 90 somethings on 99b and some 80s on 103a. I don't have locals over sat but have been told Saint Louis spot beams hit my area.


My bet is the very first sign will be a posting here at DBStalk.com.  Likely a whole new thread even.

But the first sign will otherwise be a whole lot more transponders on satellite location 103° will no longer be N/A. What I don't know is if they will be all or mostly zeros or immediately populated with real signal strengths.

So check the 103 satellite signals early and often. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Dolly

hdtvfan0001 said:


> They had me at *hello*. :lol:


+1 :lol:


----------



## EaglePC

26 pages its going to be a 100 page topic

aliens are rolling in


----------



## Dolly

EaglePC said:


> 26 pages its going to be a 100 page topic
> 
> aliens are rolling in


:lol: :rolling: !rolling Would someone just say the word "park"? Please :angel: :sunsmile:


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dolly said:


> :lol: :rolling: !rolling Would someone just say the word "park"? Please :angel: :sunsmile:


park


----------



## EaglePC

parked


----------



## Dolly

EaglePC said:


> parked


Thanks :sunsmile: I should have said say the word "parked":blush: I couldn't even get that right so you know how much of this thread I have understood :blush:


----------



## generalpatton78

Are all of you (21hawk, 2Guysfootball, ajayrav, brutis, carpetman, drded, EaglePC, Ed Campbell, HDbruce, Interceptor, JetsCuseFan, justice2, kilopapa, mwg47x, n2deep2bn, outoftime, rock819, sciullid, slinger45) just going to watch or post :lol:


----------



## EaglePC

watch and post eating popcorn drinking rootbeer 7 transponders lit up on 103 full force of a 95 singnal


----------



## MikeR

EaglePC said:


> watch and post eating popcorn drinking rootbeer 7 transponders lit up on 103 full force of a 95 singnal


Are you watching MHD yet?:lol:


----------



## EaglePC

MHD here hurrah! you missed it it was a a flash satellite blown up


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Earth isn't exactly circular and there are some masscons (mass concentrations) at various points inside the earth that create very minor perturbations in orbits due to the tiny variance in gravity.


Masscons are stationary in the frame of reference of a geosynchronous orbit. The sun and moon are still moving though.


----------



## 2Guysfootball

generalpatton78 said:


> Are all of you (21hawk, 2Guysfootball, ajayrav, brutis, carpetman, drded, EaglePC, Ed Campbell, HDbruce, Interceptor, JetsCuseFan, justice2, kilopapa, mwg47x, n2deep2bn, outoftime, rock819, sciullid, slinger45) just going to watch or post :lol:


Its better to be thought a fool
then to speak and remove all doubt.

And as far as Satellite geo orbit I have no clue what 75% all this means

:nono2:


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> Masscons are stationary in the frame of reference of a geosynchronous orbit. The sun and moon are still moving though.


True but they do perturb the Earth's gravitational field. From the position of the satellite, therefore, the center of mass of the earth isn't the exact centroid of the oblate spheroid (the "shape") of the earth. Even though the a GSO satellite is motionless relative to the surface, it IS still rotating around the center of mass of the earth, it's just that the surface is moving at the same angular rate. That difference in locations, combined with gravitational effects from the moon (and to a lesser extent the sun) can cause perturbations. And the effect of the difference between the earth's center of mass and its geodetic centroid is different for each GSO slot. And furthermore, major seismic events (such as the massive earthquake/tsunami a few years ago) change the earth's center of mass measurably, and again, that effect is different on each slot.

Besides which, D10 isn't quite in GSO yet. So there.


----------



## Ed Campbell

watch, watch, watch, lurk, check 499, check 103, watch, lurk, watch, lurk, check 499, check 103, lurk...


----------



## justice2

generalpatton78 said:


> Are all of you (21hawk, 2Guysfootball, ajayrav, brutis, carpetman, drded, EaglePC, Ed Campbell, HDbruce, Interceptor, JetsCuseFan, justice2, kilopapa, mwg47x, n2deep2bn, outoftime, rock819, sciullid, slinger45) just going to watch or post :lol:


Not sure what you want to know. Maybe you want to come by my pool and drink beer. or maybe you have nothing to do but sit at your computer and pump yours


----------



## MikeR

EaglePC said:


> MHD here hurrah! you missed it it was a a flash satellite blown up


I thought for sure it would be "Video killed the radio star"


----------



## generalpatton78

justice2 said:


> Not sure what you want to know. Maybe you want to come by my pool and drink beer. or maybe you have nothing to do but sit at your computer and pump yours


!rolling :welcome_s


----------



## donshan

2Guysfootball said:


> Its better to be thought a fool
> then to speak and remove all doubt.
> 
> And as far as Satellite geo orbit I have no clue what 75% all this means
> 
> :nono2:


I am fairly new on this forum but am here to learn and share when I can. I have a hobby in amateur astronomy and have had D* since 1999. However I also know only very little about the workings of Satellites and orbits, but find it a fascinating subject. I have expertise in many areas, but not this one. I hope there is no such thing as a foolish question, politely stated by someone asking for explanations.

I think Will Rogers quote applies here:



> You know everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
> 
> Will Rogers, New York Times Aug. 31 1924
> US humorist & showman (1879 - 1935)


I see some real experts posting here, and I have asked some questions, occasionally goofed and misstated something in my post, but I have always learned a lot from replies and the occasional corrections of my posts. I sincerely appreciate the help.

So to share a bit of what I have learned I found this link which defines TLE and thanks to Lefty I can now read how circular the orbit of D10 is . Thats progress for me.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html


----------



## TechMan1959

bobnielsen said:


> It should be within the beamwidth of the dish now, but seeing anything might be difficult because the software is set to N/A for all of the transponders except 17. A signal on that one might start showing up, however. I believe that the reason 17 is there is to enable the channel 499 BBC test (which gives a searching message because there isn't anythong to receive yet. It would be nice if they actually uplinked some sort of notice to 499 declaring the BBC works! A software update will be needed before the receivers will show any other transponders.


Ok a short time ago about 3:15 CDT transponder 17 lite up with 95% and checking channel 499 I got the message saying BBC's not working, about 20 min later it was back 0% on 17 and BBC's working.
Is this the kind of things we can expect


----------



## Tom Robertson

TechMan1959 said:


> Ok a short time ago about 3:15 CDT transponder 17 lite up with 95% and checking channel 499 I got the message saying BBC's not working, about 20 min later it was back 0% on 17 and BBC's working.
> Is this the kind of things we can expect


Yup. All this and more. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## generalpatton78

Tom Robertson said:


> Yup. All this and more.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Oh Tom are you telling us we can't have the super secret code for this either? :hurah:


----------



## FHSPSU67

EaglePC said:


> 26 pages its going to be a 100 page topic
> 
> aliens are rolling in


And over 70,000 views:eek2:


----------



## Tom Robertson

generalpatton78 said:


> Oh Tom are you telling us we can't have the super secret code for this either? :hurah:


It's no secret: While watching live TV press 4 9 9 ENTER 

(For those receivers that still have the blue gui, you might try this sequence: 4 9 9 ENTER) 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## BobbyK

This is on 99b at 6pm...95 on tp 2 and 92 on tp 6.


----------



## LameLefty

BobbyK said:


> This is on 99b at 6pm...95 on tp 2 and 92 on tp 6.


99 doesn't matter - D10 is going to 102.8 when it's in its final orbital slot. Which it isn't yet. 

Besides, I get four or five 99b's in the upper 90's because my MPEG4 locals come from Spaceway 2.


----------



## Tom Robertson

BobbyK said:


> This is on 99b at 6pm...95 on tp 2 and 92 on tp 6.


Since D10 is at 103°, all activity on 99° is either Spaceway 2, adjusting spotbeams or the stealth Echostar satellite. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## bbaleno

I was just wondering how far 1 degree was at the equator. It looks like directv 10 is playing ping pong.


----------



## BobbyK

LameLefty said:


> 99 doesn't matter - D10 is going to 102.8 when it's in its final orbital slot. Which it isn't yet.
> 
> Besides, I get four or five 99b's in the upper 90's because my MPEG4 locals come from Spaceway 2.


It matters to me. Thats where my locals will come from. I just though they were starting to turn them on sense D10 was up.


----------



## computersecguy

Argh... so are you guys saying that I should be seeing something on the 103a now? Is the MHD really up and running? I am so lost...

Here is the deal. I have the 5lnb H20-100 with CE x202a software. I am still getting a blank screen for 499, and I have all transponders on 103a N/A. I do show signal OK on 103(a) and have about a 94% signal on transponder 0. Should I be seeing something different now? 

thanks for the assistance. I have found this thread to be very enlightening.


----------



## upnorth

BobbyK said:


> It matters to me. Thats where my locals will come from. I just though they were starting to turn them on sense D10 was up.


And that will be from the D11 bird not scheduled for launch untill December of 2007 and will begin programminng 1st quarter of 2008.


----------



## morgantown

computersecguy said:


> Argh... so are you guys saying that I should be seeing something on the 103a now? Is the MHD really up and running? I am so lost...
> 
> Here is the deal. I have the 5lnb H20-100 with CE x202a software. I am still getting a blank screen for 499, and I have all transponders on 103a N/A. I do show signal OK on 103(a) and have about a 94% signal on transponder 0. Should I be seeing something different now?
> 
> thanks for the assistance. I have found this thread to be very enlightening.


499 should be a black screen saying "searching for satellite," you'd get a blue screen telling you how to order the BBC's if they were not connected. Nothing is being sent to us from the new bird at 103 since it is not at its final position and is in the testing phase.

Try again around Labor Day weekend (or later).


----------



## generalpatton78

morgantown said:


> 499 should be a black screen saying "searching for satellite," you'd get a blue screen telling you how to order the BBC's if they were not connected. Nothing is being sent to us from the new bird at 103 since it is not at its final position and is in the testing phase.
> 
> Try again around Labor Day weekend (or later).


Morgan check a page page and you will see 1DIRECTV10 Lon 102.9848° W. It's not like most of us are expecting MHD to pup up lol (I'm sure some due) but I think everybody else here is just checking there 103 sat to see if we get readings. Somebody pointed out it would be interesting to see about 499 since it's suppose to be a 103 sat. Somebody else pointed out 499 is at 103 transponder 17. EaglePC said for a few minutes he had a signal on that transponder.


----------



## BobbyK

upnorth said:


> And that will be from the D11 bird not scheduled for launch untill December of 2007 and will begin programminng 1st quarter of 2008.


Actually Pensacola hd locals will come from sw2 not D11.....thats what tec-support told me last year.


----------



## morgantown

generalpatton78 said:


> Morgan check a page page and you will see 1DIRECTV10 Lon 102.9848° W. It's not like most of us are expecting MHD to pup up lol (I'm sure some due) but I think everybody else here is just checking there 103 sat to see if we get readings. Somebody pointed out it would be interesting to see about 499 since it's suppose to be a 103 sat. Somebody else pointed out 499 is at 103 transponder 17. EaglePC said for a few minutes he had a signal on that transponder.


(Obviously) I don't read every post. But hey, something else to look for I guess. Thanks for the head's-up.

I really thought the testing part was supposed to be a little farther off. But, as they said in Armegeddon, "it's a big a$$ sky up there." We see a fair amount of it with these dishes even if it is just a sliver of a degree -- X 5 with the slimline.

Although, I must admit I was checking the 103 signal strengths yesterday just out of curiosity myself.


----------



## PoitNarf

morgantown said:


> Although, I must admit I was checking the 103 signal strengths yesterday just out of curiosity myself.


I declare all of you legally insane :lol:

I'll know when to bother looking once you other crazies tell me to


----------



## houskamp

+1


----------



## Ken984

Weird thing is, with the same TLE as n2y0 my software shows it a a different spot...maybe they have updated TLE but are not posting it on the details page when they get it. My software shows it at 103.12 right now and n2y0 shows it at 104.27


----------



## generalpatton78

Everybody should now stop checking so that John from Cin can record.


----------



## LameLefty

Ken984 said:


> Weird thing is, with the same TLE as n2y0 my software shows it a a different spot...maybe they have updated TLE but are not posting it on the details page when they get it. My software shows it at 103.12 right now and n2y0 shows it at 104.27


I'd bet the calculation engine behind the n2yo site just isn't as accurate. There's about zero probability that the site has an elset that no one else does. NORAD has only issued one update today and that was a long time ago.


----------



## Tom Robertson

And even when parked, the satellites drift .05 +/- Unless everyone checks their programs at exactly the same moment, they will show different locations. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Tom Robertson

computersecguy said:


> Argh... so are you guys saying that I should be seeing something on the 103a now? Is the MHD really up and running? I am so lost...
> 
> Here is the deal. I have the 5lnb H20-100 with CE x202a software. I am still getting a blank screen for 499, and I have all transponders on 103a N/A. I do show signal OK on 103(a) and have about a 94% signal on transponder 0. Should I be seeing something different now?
> 
> thanks for the assistance. I have found this thread to be very enlightening.


According to your profile, I could see a possibility that your receiver won't see any spotbeams except one aimed at you. A lot of empty out there. I don't see very many spotbeams and those few, but the SLC, are very weak.

As to why you are getting a purely blank screen I don't understand. I'll have to check my HR20-100 tomorrow. The last time I looked, I was getting the standard issue 771 error.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## PoitNarf

Channel 499 now yields absolutely no message and just a blank screen on my H21. HR20-700 still gets searching for signal message though.


----------



## Dolly

PoitNarf said:


> Channel 499 now yields absolutely no message and just a blank screen on my H21. HR20-700 still gets searching for signal message though.


I forgot to check Channel 499, but I am getting transponders. They are low numbers, but they are there


----------



## Dolly

I checked Channel 499 on my HR20-700 and I'm still getting searching for signal also.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Blitz68 said:


> Does anyone know if Boeing has turned it over to D* yet?


I haven't seen anything yet that indicates Boeing has completed their in-space testing. I expect we'll see that soon. And shortly after that we'll see some signs of DIRECTV testing.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## rock819

Is the bird close enough to being parked that we should know in a couple of days, or are we another week or two away? Also is there an update from norad on where the bird really is at this time ?


----------



## LameLefty

rock819 said:


> Is the bird close enough to being parked that we should know in a couple of days, or are we another week or two away? Also is there an update from norad on where the bird really is at this time ?


No updated elset from NORAD yet today. Based on yesterday's TLEs (which may well be outdated), D10 is currently at 103.04 W.


----------



## houskamp

Anybody know if they opened this sat up yet?


----------



## Ken984

Not yet, we arent even sure if they are finished tweaking the orbit...need a new tle.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> I'd bet the calculation engine behind the n2yo site just isn't as accurate. There's about zero probability that the site has an elset that no one else does. NORAD has only issued one update today and that was a long time ago.


I did some Google searching and found another on-line real time orbit tracking site that I have not seen mentioned here. This post is my first attempt to do this so I would appreciate any corrections and comments as to mistakes and if this movingsattelites site is more useful than n2yo.com Thanks :

http://www.movingsatellites.com/on_track/e_track.html

This page does not list DirecTv10 in their elset data. However I found by pasting this link into the "movingsattelites" web link and clicking "update" it brings up DirecTV10 data at the bottom of the list. This currently has these data:

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/geo.txt



> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07224.32450678 -.00000111 00000-0 10000-3 0 531
> 2 31862 0.1400 284.1947 0015077 24.4252 25.7406 1.00221204 377


Then, clearing the Iridium data they have and copy/ paste the DirecTV 10 data and clicking "Start tracking" it brings up limited live data for DrecTV10 currently as:

Lat: 0.010534390274959393
Long: 103.48234235758974
Alt: 35856.00879260851

(Note these numbers are constantly changing. It me took a couple of minutes for me to copy/paste them here so they are not an instant snapshot.)

Time 13 Aug/2007

9:04: 41AM

This is the correct PDT.

The n2yo.com site seems to be using the same elset data but shows 
Lat: 0.01
Long. -104.1

The MovingSatellites values seem to be close to what LameLefty has posted and suggests n2yo has a computational error.

Is this movingsatellites site useful?


----------



## Ken984

Looks like they have the same TLE as we do at this point. Here is what Orbitron says as of 1135 am cdt.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	103.0165° W
Lat	0.0060° S
Alt (km)	35 859.920
Azm	196.9°
Elv	51.0°
RA	07h 05m 30s
Decl	-5° 15' 37"
Range (km)	37 088.630
RRt (km/s)	0.002
Vel (km/s)	3.070
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	159.0° (113)
TA	159.1°
Orbit #	38
Mag (illum)	? (10%)
Constellation	Mon


----------



## LameLefty

New elements from NORAD:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390

Currently, D10 is at 103.29 W


----------



## jrodfoo

still trying to find a parking spot


----------



## PoitNarf

jrodfoo said:


> still trying to find a parking spot


Probably doesn't want to park too far from the mall entrance :lol:


----------



## houskamp

They're just messing with us.. they've been testing for days now, just flying it up and down to confuse us :lol:


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> New elements from NORAD:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
> 2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390
> 
> Currently, D10 is at 103.29 W


What is the significance (if any) of the "eccentricity value" in line 2 increasing to 0016252 from 0015077 in the last set? It has been decreasing.

( Or am I reading it wrong! )


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> What is the significance (if any) of the "eccentricity value" in line 2 increasing to 0016252 from 0015077 in the last set? It has been decreasing.
> 
> ( Or am I reading it wrong! )


My guess is that we're seeing a quick correction orbit or two. Then it will fall into place and continue to decrease.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## donshan

houskamp said:


> They're just messing with us.. they've been testing for days now, just flying it up and down to confuse us :lol:


And maybe they still have not finished "Step 1" in their test plan titled: " Test and verify systems to move satellite into Geostationary Orbit".


----------



## PoitNarf

donshan said:


> And maybe they still have not finished "Step 1" in their test plan titled: " Test and verify systems to move satellite into Geostationary Orbit".


Just as long as they attached the cover sheet to their test plan... I don't want to hear another rant from Lumberg :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## EaglePC

vBulletin Message 
The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again.


----------



## LameLefty

The numbers that are interesting from my perspective are inclination (0.1368 from line 2) and eccentricity. Those two basically define the shape of the orbit relative to the equator and the center of the earth. The other factors are necessary for precise determination of exactly where over the surface of the earth (as measured by the lines of longitude and latitude on a globe) the orbit crosses goes from ascending (northward) to descending (southward), etc., as well as defining the coefficient of drag, which tends to slow the satellite in its orbital revolution around the earth's center of mass.

But anyway, inclination and eccentricity are the only real specific factors the spacecraft can control - by making propulsive maneuvers, increasing and decreasing velocity in various vectors, the operators can adjust the inclination and period of the orbit (and it's eccentricity, along the way - the way orbital mechanics works is that you can't change the apogee and perigee at the same time (oversimplifying here again) - you have to do it in two steps. So circular or almost-circular orbits become more eccentric or less eccentric while the maneuvers are going on. The sat operators are changing the period and location over the earth's surface by varying the eccentricity and inclination of the orbit over a long period of time.


----------



## donshan

Lefty, thanks again for a very good explanation.

It is clear that they are still "not there yet"! However all the checkout testing could be going on at the same time unless there is some FCC rule about that original authorization that they can't start testing until D10 is in its correct slot. ( That is what the language actually says) We just don't know.


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> Lefty, thanks again for a very good explanation.
> 
> It is clear that they are still "not there yet"! However all the checkout testing could be going on at the same time unless there is some FCC rule about that original authorization that they can't start testing until D10 is in its correct slot. ( That is what the language actually says) We just don't know.


Even if the transmissions are limited somewhat right now, I"m certain they are testing many of the systems on board. And for the 10 minutes each orbit the satellite is close to its home slot (just as an example), they might even be able to fire up the transponders and fully test the whole.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

took me a lot of reading even if there testing, and the sat is in place we won't see nothing any new hd channels until directv releases them ...


----------



## VeniceDre

EaglePC said:


> took me a lot of reading even if there testing, and the sat is in place we won't see nothing any new hd channels until directv releases them ...


Correct, about 3-4 weeks of testing, then activation of channels sometime in September.


----------



## Smthkd

Are we there yet?  Sorry, couldn't help it!


----------



## donshan

Tom Robertson said:


> Even if the transmissions are limited somewhat right now, I"m certain they are testing many of the systems on board. And for the 10 minutes each orbit the satellite is close to its home slot (just as an example), they might even be able to fire up the transponders and fully test the whole.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


I sure hope you are right and from the engineering view it makes sense. I just remember ( from page 1 of this thread) what DirecTV requested in their June 7 letter to the FCC and which was approved with a date change to August10 that:

"After DIRECTV 10 reaches 102.6° W.L., DIRECTV will then commence 
IOT of the satellite."

Lawyers live in a different reality to say the least. 

Perhaps they have already obtained revision of this FCC approval.



> HARRIS, WILTSHIRE & GRANNIS LLP
> Marlene H. Dortch
> June 7, 2007
> Page 2 of 2
> 
> Specifically,
> DIRECTV contemplates the following schedule [with approximate dates indicated in
> brackets]:
> • After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DIRECTV 10 will be located at
> 102.6° W.L. [on or about August 17, 2007].
> 
> • After DIRECTV 10 reaches 102.6° W.L., DIRECTV will then commence
> IOT of the satellite [from about August 17, 2007 to September 12, 2007]
> 
> • After IOT is completed, DIRECTV 10 will then be drifted to its assigned
> location over the course of approximately three days [reaching that orbital
> position on or about September 15, 2007].


----------



## bwaldron

PoitNarf said:


> Probably doesn't want to park too far from the mall entrance :lol:


Just be glad it isn't looking for handicapped parking


----------



## jrodfoo

I noticed it really slowing down now.. probably outdated info though...


----------



## Ken984

TLE should be getting updated more often but it seems that has slowed down as well. N2yo is using yesterdays set. Using the latest set I have from earlier today here is the current position.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	103.4822° W
Lat	0.0901° S
Alt (km)	35 794.720
Azm	197.6°
Elv	50.7°
RA	15h 13m 42s
Decl	-5° 21' 48"
Range (km)	37 037.622
RRt (km/s)	-0.005
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	280.7° (199)
TA	280.5°
Orbit #	39
Mag (illum)	? (47%)
Constellation	Lib


----------



## MikeR

Tom - Any pending T/C documents on the FCC site? I searched (using your Ka thread info), but to be honest - I wouldn't know if I found it.:bang 

Would they be filed under D*?


----------



## Tom Robertson

MikeR said:


> Tom - Any pending T/C documents on the FCC site? I searched (using your Ka thread info), but to be honest - I wouldn't know if I found it.:bang
> 
> Would they be filed under D*?


I'll do some searching tonight and see what I can find. And share some of the searching techniques I develop along the way. (The ones that don't work, I probably won't bother sharing.  )

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

We REALLY need those HD channels!! Tonight's lineup stinks:
a pre-season "means nothing" football game, a rerun of a David Caruso trainwreck (i.e., "CSI: Miami"), "Ghost" (for the ump-teenth time on HDNet Movies...my wife's happy, though...), a few others....

When all these channels DO appear, the networks will be starting their new seasons...and I won't have time (or space!) to watch them!!


----------



## mattgwyther

Any one remember parking the Spaceways? I seems like it took even longer to get into orbit. Wasn't SW1 first and it took FOREVER to get parked even before the extra Boeing tests.

Is D10 taking longer to park or is it just my eagerness to get those extra HD channels kicking in?


----------



## VeniceDre

mattgwyther said:


> Is D10 taking longer to park or is it just my eagerness to get those extra HD channels kicking in?


I think everyone's eager for D10 to park, test, & start broadcasting.


----------



## RAD

mattgwyther said:


> Any one remember parking the Spaceways? I seems like it took even longer to get into orbit. Wasn't SW1 first and it took FOREVER to get parked even before the extra Boeing tests.
> 
> Is D10 taking longer to park or is it just my eagerness to get those extra HD channels kicking in?


The rumor was that someone made a BIG mistake and they almost lost SW1, it took them awhile to recover from that error.


----------



## MikeR

syphix said:


> When all these channels DO appear, the networks will be starting their new seasons...and I won't have time (or space!) to watch them!!


1TB eSata and a long vacation can fix that.


----------



## mattgwyther

RAD said:


> The rumor was that someone made a BIG mistake and they almost lost SW1, it took them awhile to recover from that error.


That's right.... I remember that now.


----------



## VeniceDre

MikeR said:


> 1TB eSata and a long vacation can fix that.


Any recommendations for a 1 TB or 1.5 TB eSata setup? I want to connect one to my main HD DVR in the living room.


----------



## BobbyK

mattgwyther said:


> Any one remember parking the Spaceways? I seems like it took even longer to get into orbit. Wasn't SW1 first and it took FOREVER to get parked even before the extra Boeing tests.
> 
> Is D10 taking longer to park or is it just my eagerness to get those extra HD channels kicking in?


Google spaceway 1 and 2, you will find all you ever wanted to know about them.


----------



## syphix

RAD said:


> The rumor was that someone made a BIG mistake and they almost lost SW1, it took them awhile to recover from that error.


Wonder if that person is still employed!!:eek2:


----------



## houskamp

2-500g drives coming for mine.. got to prepare


----------



## VeniceDre

houskamp said:


> 2-500g drives coming for mine.. got to prepare


I asked my Bro about it last night (IT guy back in NYC) and he recommended waiting for the DirecTV branded drives from Western Digital (He thinks) soon... He said it was kinda like the My Books but look complimentary to the DirecTV units.

He didn't know the sizes available yet.


----------



## MikeR

VeniceDre said:


> Any recommendations for a 1 TB or 1.5 TB eSata setup? I want to connect one to my main HD DVR in the living room.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145141

<but see the first review>...."waiting for the Western Digital"; as you recommended


----------



## EaglePC

MikeR said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145141
> 
> <but see the first review>...."waiting for the Western Digital"; as you recommended


wait to like november these will be like 250.00

ARE WE THERE YET ?:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## HDTVFanAtic

syphix said:


> Wonder if that person is still employed!!:eek2:


Yes, they are now in charge of customer service.


----------



## EaglePC

were all set folks ,we are there 

ok i had to call directv for another problem waiting almost 40 mins to the tech support.he quoted yes as we know the D10 is right now in testing phase, as we might very soon see previews of HD broadcasting by next week ,he quoted alse a guaranteed channels will be in HD on Sept 17th ,he does not know what channels.


who knows anyways what we can believe what csr 's talk @ directv
seeing is believing cause were 5 yrs late- hd should had been


----------



## HDTVFanAtic

And since the bird is still in test phase (and not even in the correct orbital slot) you believed them about seeing previews of HD broadcasts from the bird next week? 

As has been proven over and over, if a CSR says it.....it's probably a lie.


----------



## EaglePC

HDTVFanAtic said:


> And since the bird is still in test phase (and not even in the correct orbital slot) you believed them about seeing previews of HD broadcasts from the bird next week?
> 
> As has been proven over and over, if a CSR says it.....it's probably a lie.


yes like somewhere here in the forum csr told them the satellite blew up yi o yi
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94710

september could even be a lie

maybe when we see it ,we will say believe us we have 100 hd 's

wonder how the cell phone was invented lol


----------



## MIAMI1683

Waiting on Lefty with new tle's


----------



## mcbeevee

HDTVFanAtic said:


> As has been proven over and over, if a CSR says it.....it's probably a lie.


:grin:


----------



## FHSPSU67

HDTVFanAtic said:


> As has been proven over and over, if a CSR says it.....it's probably a lie.


In order to be a liar, don't you have to know what the truth is?


----------



## leww37334

VeniceDre said:


> I asked my Bro about it last night (IT guy back in NYC) and he recommended waiting for the DirecTV branded drives from Western Digital (He thinks) soon... He said it was kinda like the My Books but look complimentary to the DirecTV units.
> 
> He didn't know the sizes available yet.


Hmmm, if WD is getting ready to sell D* branded drives, does that mean that D* is ready to fully enable ESATA as an additional drive to the on board drive, rather than a replacement? Hmmmm


----------



## BudShark

I'm just curious as to the price premium for a "Works with DirecTV" logo on a Hard Drive! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

MIAMI1683 said:


> Waiting on Lefty with new tle's


None yet, sorry!


----------



## since 2/96

Man...between this and the anticipation of an announcement of Springsteen tour dates, I'm goin' nuts here!


----------



## raoul5788

FHSPSU67 said:


> In order to be a liar, don't you have to know what the truth is?


Actually, yes. Lying and not telling the truth are not necessarily the same thing.


----------



## MIAMI1683

FHSPSU67 said:


> In order to be a liar, don't you have to know what the truth is?


nope that would be misinformed


----------



## houskamp

OK :backtotop are we there yet :grin:


----------



## FHSPSU67

MIAMI1683 said:


> nope that would be misinformed


Sorry, I have to agree with Raoul. Two weeks of training may make a CSR informed, but it doesn't mean they can possibly understand most things which stray from their "informed" scripts.


----------



## rock819

Any new #'s on where the bird is at today ?


----------



## Ken984

No new TLe as of yet, latest reading using a TLE from Sunday I think...

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	103.4285° W
Lat	0.0172° S
Alt (km)	35 873.190
Azm	197.6°
Elv	50.8°
RA	07h 25m 06s
Decl	-5° 16' 12"
Range (km)	37 109.841
RRt (km/s)	0.002
Vel (km/s)	3.069
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	163.3° (116)
TA	163.3°
Orbit #	40
Mag (illum)	? (9%)


----------



## rock819

SO for those of us that have been watching the bird for the last month or so it is good news to see it has slowed way down, and the altitude seems to be pretty stable as well. I only understand a fraction of what is being said but in the long run i dont care just as long as they get the bird fired up and beaming those beautiful HD signals


----------



## Ken984

The altitude is down to a fairly close range now so yes that is good, and it seems to be moving far less than it was last week, still not stationary though. I would imagine that the next TLE would be a significant change from the one I am currently using.

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-13 10:37:41
Orbit # at Epoch	39
Inclination	0.137
RA of A. Node	284.395
Eccentricity	0.0016252
Argument of Perigee	24.920
Revs per day	1.00196347
Period	23h 57m 10s (1437.17 min)
Semi-major axis	42 186 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 739 x 35 876 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	68.441
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	54 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok since I understand less .23 % of this stuff. Is it possible to test while just out of posistion. (probably a stupid question) and with all the new dates being said I had a friend switch today and they told him the 10th or so as a go live date.


----------



## Ken984

I am sure they can talk to it pretty much no matter where it is, but until its actually parked i don't think they can fire it up and test the downlink and uplinks that we would be using to receive a signal from it. They can probably have it run internal tests and relay the results back so that could help eliminate some time from the schedule.


----------



## Steve Robertson

I just hope it is by New Year's at this point.


----------



## bakers12

The FCC license allows D10 to transmit its downlinks from a particular location - actually a temporary test location, then a permanent location later. If D10 is not in its allowed location, I don't think the license is valid.


----------



## khoyme

mattgwyther said:


> Any one remember parking the Spaceways? I seems like it took even longer to get into orbit. Wasn't SW1 first and it took FOREVER to get parked even before the extra Boeing tests.
> 
> Is D10 taking longer to park or is it just my eagerness to get those extra HD channels kicking in?


Back in the days when space was empty, it was easy to park. Now, with sats on both sides, they got to parallel park it -- takes more time. :lol:    :sure:


----------



## RAD

khoyme said:


> Back in the days when space was empty, it was easy to park. Now, with sats on both sides, they got to parallel park it -- takes more time. :lol:    :sure:


Sure hope Meadow Soprano isn't driving then.


----------



## donshan

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ok since I understand less .23 % of this stuff. Is it possible to test while just out of posistion. (probably a stupid question) and with all the new dates being said I had a friend switch today and they told him the 10th or so as a go live date.


Your question about testing has come up a number of times in various forms and I don't see any definitive answer, just educated guesses ( and it is not a stupid question!). I have been wondering about it too and feel they have lot of testing work still to do and they will still be testing for several months. Here's why.

Some things I am sure they are testing now. However when I look at the D10 assortment of TWTAs ( which send down our channels) from the Boeing D10 fact sheet I ask how many of these does Boeing/D* turn on during testing and verify?:



> National/Alaska Ka-band -28 active TWTAs, 8 spares
> National/Hawaii Ka-band - 4 active TWTAs, 4 spares
> Spot Ka-band 55 active, 15 spares


They need only a few of the National TWTA's to start nationwide HD of the first channels, but if I were testing I would want to be sure they ALL are working and collect specific electrical and performance data on everyone of them from orbit when they are new, so if problems develop later with one of them they have a complete set of startup data to compare with the one acting up down the road later. It seems to me that to simultaneously actually verify that the National/Alaska ones hit North America/Alaska with adequate signal strength , and the National/Hawawii ones also hit Hawaii AT THE SAME TIME, requires a fairly stable D10 position in orbit. To simultaneously hit 55 Local channel cities is even a tougher job and I am amazed they can do it at all. It may take months to get them working.

So a variation of your question is will the National HD roll out include Hawaii too? I would assume so, and in that case they have a lot of test work to do and need to get this bird parked and stable.

I am here to learn about how D10 works too, so others with more experience with these things please correct me if I have misunderstood this. (I have experience in complex electrical power plant startups but not satellites)


----------



## John4924

WOW!! over 80,000 views thus far!

I think we know where the interest in D* is now :lol:


----------



## EaglePC

wonder if anyone is employed with D ,that is seeing this ,we belong in a lunie bin.


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> wonder if anyone is employed with D ,that is seeing this ,we belong in a lunie bin.


No kidding what is wrong with us? I just want my NESN 10 go back to 1080i instead of the downrezing they are doing to 720p.


----------



## EaglePC

ok you think we will have at least half of the 150 channels on sept 15,16,17,18 th


----------



## donshan

EaglePC said:


> wonder if anyone is employed with D ,that is seeing this ,we belong in a lunie bin.


No, but all this wild guessing is caused by Boeing/D* not releasing any official progress info on status, in sharp contrast to the information updates prior to launch of D!0 via ILS which were excellent. A weekly short statement would prevent a lot of speculation.

*Anyone at D* see that?*

The fact that over 80,000 views have been hit on this thread so far shows there is a lot of interest and D* could help a lot here with an occasional update news release.


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> ok you think we will have at least half of the 150 channels on sept 15,16,17,18 th


I have no idea but I will go with Sept 30th


----------



## wilmot3

I got a letter from d* today saying that a bbc would be needed by sept 1. Does it mean anything, probable not but thought I would share it


----------



## EaglePC

are we there yet


----------



## mike_augie

wilmot3 said:


> I got a letter from d* today saying that a bbc would be needed by sept 1. Does it mean anything, probable not but thought I would share it


they have been sending them out for a few weeks now along with phone calls to everyone..but they are trying to avoid the rush for the following weeks after words....


----------



## donshan

EaglePC said:


> ok you think we will have at least half of the 150 channels on sept 15,16,17,18 th


Still possible we will get the promised national channels for September by then. For example if D10 is parked by August 17th, the original FCC approved schedule may still apply. Perhaps we were misled by that August 10 date.

My "best guess" schedule is :

1. Wait until LameLefty and Ken agree that D10 has reached 102.6 W and the orbit can be defined as "geostationary"

2 Add 30 days for the test program(maybe a bit less)

3. Add 3 days to move D10 to its final slot

4. HD arrives!


----------



## syphix

Can someone summarize this thread up to today? Are we waiting for D10 to be "parked", or what?


----------



## mike_augie

syphix said:


> Can someone summarize this thread up to today? Are we waiting for D10 to be "parked", or what?


we are not sure there has been no new tle numbers posted as of yet ...so we are not sure if it is there or not ...it was close yesterday but with no new numbers lefty and ken cant tell us for sure yet??


----------



## Richi

From my point of view, it seems that the inclination has been reduced to LESS than .12 maybee as low to .115. Also the peregee and apogee are narrowing to the desired altitude of 35786 km.


----------



## PoitNarf

mike_augie said:


> they have been sending them out for a few weeks now along with phone calls to everyone..but they are trying to avoid the rush for the following weeks after words....


I called D* yesterday to activate my new D12 and one of the first things out of the guys mouth was "I see you have HD service. Do you have the BBCs connected?"


----------



## VeniceDre

n2yo has these TLEs from today:

"Two Line Element Set (TLE): 


1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390


Last time retrieved: August 14 2007 22:00 UTC"

Are these new and current?


----------



## Ken984

Those TLEs are from Sunday Dre, if i remember correctly. According to what i see using those, its current position is 103.7. I would bet about a nickel that there are new TLEs but so far none have been posted:-(.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	103.7243° W
Lat	0.1086° S
Alt (km)	35 830.970
Azm	198.1°
Elv	50.6°
RA	13h 11m 15s
Decl	-5° 22' 43"
Range (km)	37 079.380
RRt (km/s)	-0.005
Vel (km/s)	3.072
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	250.1° (177)
TA	249.9°
Orbit #	40
Mag (illum)	? (22%)
Constellation	Vir


----------



## VeniceDre

Ken984 said:


> Those TLEs are from Sunday Dre, if i remember correctly. According to what i see using those, its current position is 103.7. I would bet about a nickel that there are new TLEs but so far none have been posted:-(.


I wonder why they say it's updated today then?

Edit*

Yeah, you're right, comparing them they are from Sunday.


----------



## mattgwyther

Is it just me or is D10 moving in the wrong direction (away from 102.6)?


----------



## VeniceDre

Since it's been pretty much in the same area the last 24 hrs with the old TLE, I bet once we get updated sets it will be close to where it supposed to be.

I wonder what the holdup on the TLE is though?


----------



## MikeR

PoitNarf said:


> I called D* yesterday to activate my new D12....


I must have satellite on the brain. When I first read this I thought to myself. "Hmm...must be Poit is in charge of launching  the Directv 12 satellite!"


----------



## Richi

Using n2yo, you can simultaniusly track D10 and S1 on the same screen. In this fashion one can see the correalation of orbits of each satillite and how the final orbits will be.


----------



## Ken984

Yes the last set moved it farther West and it seems to be staying in the 103 area closer to 104 than 103. Hopefully we will get a new set tonight, or early tomorrow.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok so if we are not there than I am starting to wonder when. Thnak you for the info donshan this has all been informative. I have a friend who is a Manager for D* I will call him tommorrow and try to get info. He works in installs as a manager but maybe. I got another friend to switch to D* today on the whole HD capacity thing. Lefty how about some new TLE"S tonight. Still waiting on you! Thanks....


----------



## bobnielsen

VeniceDre said:


> n2yo has these TLEs from today:
> 
> "Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
> 2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390
> 
> Last time retrieved: August 14 2007 22:00 UTC"
> 
> Are these new and current?


Those are the same as at T.S. Kelso's celestrak.com. Another source is space-track.org, operated by DoD. This one requires registration and has some non-disclosure restrictions (I don't know if the data is any newer).


----------



## LameLefty

bobnielsen said:


> Those are the same as at T.S. Kelso's celestrak.com. Another source is space-track.org, operated by DoD. This one requires registration and has some non-disclosure restrictions (I don't know if the data is any newer).


Yeah, we went over that a few days ago.  I post 'em as soon as I see the update from Space-Track (from NORAD Space Command data), which is usually a few hours before Celes-Trak gets them.


----------



## Richi

Ken or LameLefty, do you happen to know what was the most easterly position for D10 approx 7 am EST? Right now I am simultaniously tracking S1,D8 and D10 to check the relative position when D10 arrives at lat 102.6 ....


----------



## Richi

I meant to say the MOST easterly longitued approx 7 am EST this morning.


----------



## TechMan1959

Ok there was a regional sales guy for directv in the store where I work this afternoon, and he said at September 15 is national HD lunch day.
New satellite are not, they are holding back space on Spaceway 1 & 2 to make it work even if something goes wrong with Directv10.


----------



## LameLefty

Assuming I got the EDT - to - UTC offset right (I always forget exactly how many hours it is -5 during DST?), D10 was at about 103.38W at 7:00 a.m. EDT.


----------



## LameLefty

TechMan1959 said:


> Ok there was a regional sales guy for directv in the store where I work this afternoon, and he said at September 15 is national HD lunch day.
> New satellite are not, they are holding back space on Spaceway 1 & 2 to make it work even if something goes wrong with Directv10.


That would explain why D* hasn't added more MPEG4 locals even though the Spaceway sats have the capacity.


----------



## trgonz

Did anyone notice the Discovery Channel (278) is showing programs in the guide as HD? It is still an SD signal...

TG


----------



## PoitNarf

trgonz said:


> Did anyone notice the Discovery Channel (278) is showing programs in the guide as HD? It is still an SD signal...


I'm seeing the same thing, it's probably just erroneous guide data.


----------



## EaglePC

Discovery Channel (278) probally airs HD programs at certain times ,DirecTV will not broadcast it at this moment


----------



## trgonz

Or just a tease... This is going to be the longest 30 days ever...


----------



## MikeR

trgonz said:


> Did anyone notice the Discovery Channel (278) is showing programs in the guide as HD? It is still an SD signal...
> 
> TG


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93843

Any reason why Space Track would not provide updated coordinates?


----------



## RAD

TechMan1959 said:


> New satellite are not, they are holding back space on Spaceway 1 & 2 to make it work even if something goes wrong with Directv10.


Sorry but I don't buy that logic. If D* could make SW1/2 do CONUS coverage why would they not use it before to provide more national HD channels for a number of months now? Put the channels up on SW1/2 and once D10 goes active then migrate them to D10 and continue HD-LIL rollouts on SW1/2. They'd be able to hold onto customers that moved to E* due to nothing new until D10 and they couldn't wait.


----------



## BobbyK

TechMan1959 said:


> Ok there was a regional sales guy for directv in the store where I work this afternoon, and he said at September 15 is national HD lunch day.
> New satellite are not, they are holding back space on Spaceway 1 & 2 to make it work even if something goes wrong with Directv10.


Did you ask him how they are going to use SW 1 and 2 [spot beams] for nationals?


----------



## LameLefty

BobbyK said:


> Did you ask him how they are going to use SW 1 and 2 [spot beams] for nationals?


SW1 and 2 used phased-array transmitters - they can be configured to pretty much any configuration of spots or even CONUS, albeit less efficiently.


----------



## bakers12

LameLefty said:


> Assuming I got the EDT - to - UTC offset right (I always forget exactly how many hours it is -5 during DST?), D10 was at about 103.38W at 7:00 a.m. EDT.


-5 hours to CDT. -4 hours to EDT.



MikeR said:


> Any reason why Space Track would not provide updated coordinates?


Space-track.org doesn't have new numbers because the orbit hasn't changed.


----------



## BobbyK

LameLefty said:


> SW1 and 2 used phased-array transmitters - they can be configured to pretty much any configuration of spots or even CONUS, albeit less efficiently.


Regional sports or anything else but not national. As someone else said, if D* could use sw 1-2 as national it would have been done months ago.


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> Assuming I got the EDT - to - UTC offset right (I always forget exactly how many hours it is -5 during DST?), D10 was at about 103.38W at 7:00 a.m. EDT.


So, did it go PAST 102.6? Will they swing it back, or is this an error in positioning (again)?


----------



## bakers12

It's going to keep moving back and forth, round and round, until its orbit is geostationary. Since the orbit hasn't changed much - eccentricity and inclination are still too high - you can't call it parked yet.

Don't worry about what its longitude and latitude are. They don't matter yet.

Watch the eccentricty to see how circular the orbit is. It needs about four leading zeroes.

Watch the inclination to see how far it's tilted off the equator. It needs to probably be under 0.1 from what I can tell.

When these numbers are close to zero, then the longitude will have some meaning.


----------



## syphix

Is D10 "late" in it's parking? Or was the aforementioned August 10th date just a guess on when it would be parked?

(sorry...just some questions from a layman...I don't understand all these rocket science mathematics!)


----------



## bobnielsen

LameLefty said:


> Assuming I got the EDT - to - UTC offset right (I always forget exactly how many hours it is -5 during DST?), D10 was at about 103.38W at 7:00 a.m. EDT.


-4 hours EDT, -5 hours for EST.


----------



## wilmot3

I would say it was probable a rough estimate.


----------



## Ken984

Since D* asked for permission to begin testing on the 10th I would say its "late" however with the lack of updates who knows where it really is right now, also what testing would they have been talking about? Uplink downlink tt&c? I would think they are moving as fast as possible to get this done and will do whatever it takes to get it online asap.


----------



## Tom Robertson

TechMan1959 said:


> Ok there was a regional sales guy for directv in the store where I work this afternoon, and he said at September 15 is national HD lunch day.
> New satellite are not, they are holding back space on Spaceway 1 & 2 to make it work even if something goes wrong with Directv10.


Not quite sure how to read the rolled eyes, but here is some reality. S1 and S2 were hoped to be able to provide some CONUS capability and there are some FCC documents to that end. But in actual use, the power draw needed to send a CONUS signal was too great so that was abandoned.

So a question might be are they holding back some spotbeam capacity? I haven't done the math, but for redundancy's sake I know that I would. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

82,938 views
798 post

that 10%

we are there now. are we there yet ?


----------



## LameLefty

BobbyK said:


> Regional sports or anything else but not national. As someone else said, if D* could use sw 1-2 as national it would have been done months ago.


From Tom's post here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=869687&postcount=4



> The two satellites are also very unique in that they do not use traditional transponders to downlink data. Instead S1, S2, (and their brother S3) each use a 1,500 element phased array to generate their downlinks as needed. The phased array is capable of creating spotbeams as small as .5° or as large as full nationwide coverage. Other unique advanced features included highly variable beam strength that automatically adjust to compensate for weather conditions in various parts of the country.


I think the reason they haven't repurposed S1 and S2 spare capacity is that they don't want to, not with D10 running only a couple months past estimates and still likely to be ready in plenty of time for the new fall programming requirements and D11 following on six months later. Configuring coverage is not trivial and I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid it if possible, especially as it might impact the phased array configurations already in use for existing locals and/or RSNs.


----------



## donshan

syphix said:


> Is D10 "late" in it's parking? Or was the aforementioned August 10th date just a guess on when it would be parked?
> 
> (sorry...just some questions from a layman...I don't understand all these rocket science mathematics!)


As far as I have seen the August 10 date comes from post no 311 by dwrats_56 which has a link to a FCC public notice which seems to modify the June 7 letter by D* lawyers to the FCC linked on page 1 of this thread moving the August 17 date a week earlier.

However, just to maintain optimism here  this "special authority" does not specifically cancel the earlier authority, so D* still has a window to get all this done sucessfully on the original plan IMHO. But they need to get this bird parked soon :



> Effective Date: 07/23/2007Grant of Authority
> Special Temporary Authority
> DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
> Nature of Service: Other
> On July 23, 2007, the Policy Branch granted with conditions the request of DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") for special temporary authority (STA), File No. SAT-STA-20070607-00078. Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for thirty days commencing August 10,2007, to operate the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the102.6º W.L. orbital location after launch to conduct in-orbit testing (IOT) using the 29.250-29.500 GHz/28.350-28.600 GHz (uplink) and 18.300-18.800 GHz (downlink) frequencies and to conduct telemetry, tracking and command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink), 18.30025 GHz and 18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary to maintain the satellite at that location and to drift the satellite to its assigned orbital location at 102.8° W.L. following the end of IOT. This authorization is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1025044&postcount=311


----------



## BobbyK

LameLefty said:


> From Tom's post here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=869687&postcount=4
> 
> I think the reason they haven't repurposed S1 and S2 spare capacity is that they don't want to, not with D10 running only a couple months past estimates and still likely to be ready in plenty of time for the new fall programming requirements and D11 following on six months later. Configuring coverage is not trivial and I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid it if possible, especially as it might impact the phased array configurations already in use for existing locals and/or RSNs.


If what you are saying is true D* would have done it last fall instead of shuting down HD chs: to show football games. D* caught a lot hell for doing that and E* had a field day with the bad publicity. I dont believe for one second that if D* could have avoided that they would have used the spaceways.


----------



## Ken984

Using the spaceways would have meant requiring all ST SF subs to have HR20 or H20, that would have been a very difficult and expensive thing to pull off last year, so that would have prevented them from doing it. Now I have always said that they SHOULD have made sure that was the way it would work this year but apparently they are still gonna use KU Mpeg2 for ST HD games.


----------



## TechMan1959

RAD said:


> Sorry but I don't buy that logic. If D* could make SW1/2 do CONUS coverage why would they not use it before to provide more national HD channels for a number of months now? Put the channels up on SW1/2 and once D10 goes active then migrate them to D10 and continue HD-LIL rollouts on SW1/2. They'd be able to hold onto customers that moved to E* due to nothing new until D10 and they couldn't wait.


From what I read directv didn't had the contacts signed to broadcast that stuff .


----------



## davring

TechMan1959 said:


> From what I read directv didn't had the contacts signed to broadcast that stuff .


Kind of a moot point anyway, most of the new HD broadcasting is not even going to be available until on or about the time D10 goes active.


----------



## John4924

EaglePC said:


> 82,938 views
> 798 post
> 
> that 10%
> 
> we are there now. are we there yet ?


sorry, this is less than 1% 

do we have to get to 10% for them to park that bird? :lol:


----------



## Smthkd

Looks like D10 is in Geo based on Lynsat and slowly moving to in position!


----------



## RAD

TechMan1959 said:


> From what I read directv didn't had the contacts signed to broadcast that stuff .


According to http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=127160&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=948332&highlight= D* had a number of agreements in place back in January to carry some HD channels.


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> Looks like D10 is in Geo based on Lynsat and slowly moving to in position!


Still no updated elements from NORAD. I don't know what Lyngsat is basing that on.


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> Still no updated elements from NORAD. I don't know what Lyngsat is basing that on.


I think they base it upon "knowledgeable" user reports that they trust over time, rather than TLEs.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

F5.....


F5.....


F5.....


----------



## donshan

Smthkd said:


> Looks like D10 is in Geo based on Lynsat and slowly moving to in position!


Where do you find this?

I found this lyngsat site but the data update is about 3 days old and shows D!0 moving West away from the the Geosync assigned test slot at 102.6W :

http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/dtv10.html


----------



## LameLefty

Tom Robertson said:


> I think they base it upon "knowledgeable" user reports that they trust over time, rather than TLEs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Heh. Then their "knowledgeable" users are full of crap - I doubt they have better radars and optical trackers to generate TLEs than Space Command. :lol:


----------



## Ken984

Without any new TLEs its still at 103 as far as we know, latest projection based on 3 day old TLE.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	103.5531° W
Lat	0.0653° N
Alt (km)	35 837.690
Azm	197.8°
Elv	50.9°
RA	04h 17m 33s
Decl	-5° 10' 52"
Range (km)	37 071.173
RRt (km/s)	0.005
Vel (km/s)	3.072
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	116.3° (82)
TA	116.5°
Orbit #	41
Mag (illum)	? (41%)
Constellation	Eri


----------



## bbaleno

Now we know they are playing with us.

first they move it back and forth,
now they are holding back information so we can't see what is happining.

its probably just sitting there taunting


----------



## LameLefty

bbaleno said:


> first they move it back and forth,
> now they are holding back information so we can't see what is happining.


NORAD doesn't work for DirecTV. If the orbit had changed as of the last time they tracked it, they would have issued new TLEs. It hasn't.


----------



## bbaleno

:new_Eyecr Its a conspiracy


----------



## syphix

LameLefty said:


> NORAD doesn't work for DirecTV. If the orbit had changed as of the last time they tracked it, they would have issued new TLEs. It hasn't.


And the $10,000 question....why hasn't it?


----------



## Interceptor

Well, it's changed now! Sorry if I steal your thunder LameLefty! But got to give the people what they want! You can explain the numbers to us!

Mike 

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07226.29119973 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 551
2 31862 000.1354 285.5489 0007896 013.0817 025.6875 01.00310808 392


----------



## Smthkd

Well guys, it looks like E* has struck again! Over on the E* forum they are reporting live channels of TLCHD, DiscoveryHD, DiscoveryScienceHD, MHD and more!


----------



## chopperjc

we all need help :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


----------



## since 2/96

Smthkd said:


> Well guys, it looks like E* has struck again! Over on the E* forum they are reporting live channels of TLCHD, DiscoveryHD, DiscoveryScienceHD, MHD and more!


Do they have Sunday Ticket?


----------



## LameLefty

Interceptor said:


> Well, it's changed now! Sorry if I steal your thunder LameLefty! But got to give the people what they want! You can explain the numbers to us!
> 
> Mike
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07226.29119973 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 551
> 2 31862 000.1354 285.5489 0007896 013.0817 025.6875 01.00310808 392


Eccentricity is WAY down- less than half what it was - and that's good. Still not totally circular, but for testing, it's probably fine. It will drift very, very slowly at that eccentricity. Inclination is also down, though not as dramatically - it wasn't high to begin with. They may make more corrections tonight to completely circularize, or they may continue to let it drift very slowly. I don't know.

Right now D10 is at 102.72W, 22,250 nautical miles altitude.


----------



## RAD

Smthkd said:


> Well guys, it looks like E* has struck again! Over on the E* forum they are reporting live channels of TLCHD, DiscoveryHD, DiscoveryScienceHD, MHD and more!


And all the E* subs should be thanking D* for pushing content providers to add HD channels. Looking forward to a month from now to being able to see the same channels on D*.


----------



## Smthkd

since 2/96 said:


> Do they have Sunday Ticket?


At this point, I don't even care! I get enough NFL games all ready! Im just waiting for D* to stick it to them and they better do a good job because E* is shinning way above the rest!


----------



## loudo

since 2/96 said:


> Do they have Sunday Ticket?


I wish they did. Maybe it would be more reasonably priced if there was competition.


----------



## since 2/96

loudo said:


> I wish they did. Maybe it would be more reasonably priced if there was competition.


excellent point loudo...to me it's still less than going to one game at the Ralph if I include air fare, tix to the game and meals, etc. With that, I'm paying air fare for two and tix to the Bills/Skins game in Dec., but I'll hopefully be able to watch the key plays of the game again in HD when I get back home...


----------



## BudShark

Technically we are exactly 1 month away from the FCC permitted go live date - unless new requests have been put out. I'd still love to see it light up a week or two early!

As far as E* - that was old information they released when D10 went up to steal some "thunder". But as others pointed out - If the channels were live, and they had the bandwidth, why didn't they turn them on earlier?

And - I have yet to see anything about the new channels, but considering they went HD-Lite to accomodate the "adds" I'm curious where the outrage is. I guess it still pays to be the "underdog" in this country. I'm actually impressed that DirecTV is this close to a 2 1/2 year announced project timeline. Not many companies can hold that close - especially when it involves multiple partners.

Chris


----------



## LameLefty

BudShark said:


> I'm actually impressed that DirecTV is this close to a 2 1/2 year announced project timeline. Not many companies can hold that close - especially when it involves multiple partners.


Exactly, a point that the bashers don't want to acknowledge. It's also a lot closer to original schedules than NASA ever manages to be in their space programs, something I know from personal, professional experience in my former life. :lol:


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Eccentricity is WAY down- less than half what it was - and that's good. Still not totally circular, but for testing, it's probably fine. It will drift very, very slowly at that eccentricity. Inclination is also down, though not as dramatically - it wasn't high to begin with.  They may make more corrections tonight to completely circularize, or they may continue to let it drift very slowly. I don't know.
> 
> Right now D10 is at 102.72W, 22,250 nautical miles altitude.


Thanks! That change shows that things are moving and in the right direction and with plenty of time left to light up those HD channels on the September schedule or earlier :hurah: :hurah: :hurah:


----------



## John4924

BudShark said:


> ...... I'm actually impressed that DirecTV is this close to a 2 1/2 year announced project timeline. Not many companies can hold that close - especially when it involves multiple partners.
> 
> Chris


I am with Chris on this one. I work in the oil & gas industry and have worked on several large projects and can tell you that it is almost unheard of for us to be on time, much less within budget.

So kudos to Directv for being on the verge of making this happen! 

Cheers,
John


----------



## man_rob

I'm not offended or bothered that E* added some new HD. The way I see it, Congrats to E* and their subs. I'm sure they will enjoy their new HD Channels! My guess is that many of them are willing to take the slight quality hit of HD-Lite as a trade off to get their new channels. I know I don't mind. Yes we have to wait a bit longer, but next month we will bask in the warm glow of HD goodness as well. I just don't get this militant devotion to corporations.


----------



## loudo

LameLefty said:


> ... It's also a lot closer to original schedules than NASA ever manages to be in their space programs, something I know from personal, professional experience in my former life. :lol:


I feel like a NASCAR driver coming down the home stretch, after a 2 1/2 year race, getting ready to get the "Checkered Flag", around the middle of September. :gott:


----------



## Ken984

Wow you try to get some work done and look at this new info, excellent D10. Very close now. 
The E* stuff has always been a ?? to me also, they have all this space to transmit with and they just sit on it till somebody forces them to move. No way Charlie would EVER have this much HD if it weren't for D*. And while i am off topic, what is with all the fees E* manages to charge, $40 to enable external storage? Are they that crazy? Its insane what he gets away with, his koolaid is very very potent i guess.



1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5952° W
Lat	0.0230° N
Alt (km)	35 804.930
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.1°
RA	06h 02m 49s
Decl	-5° 14' 10"
Range (km)	37 024.855
RRt (km/s)	0.002
Vel (km/s)	3.073
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	153.3° (109)
TA	153.3°
Orbit #	40
Mag (illum)	? (21%)
Constellation	Mon


----------



## raoul5788

since 2/96 said:


> Do they have Sunday Ticket?


Or YES hd? Oh, wait a minute, they don't even have YES in sd!


----------



## EaglePC

great ,we are there.

what happen when directv 1st launch there very first satellite,did anybody get programming right away what year was that 1993 ?


----------



## spoonman

Ken984 said:


> Wow you try to get some work done and look at this new info, excellent D10. Very close now.
> The E* stuff has always been a ?? to me also, they have all this space to transmit with and they just sit on it till somebody forces them to move. No way Charlie would EVER have this much HD if it weren't for D*. And while i am off topic, what is with all the fees E* manages to charge, $40 to enable external storage? Are they that crazy? Its insane what he gets away with, his koolaid is very very potent i guess.


I saw that $40 fee and laugh. Why would you have to pay to use an external drive and it sounds like people are ok with it and its only USB?


----------



## BudShark

spoonman said:


> I saw that $40 fee and laugh. Why would you have to pay to use an external drive and it sounds like people are ok with it and its only USB?


AND limited to 750GB! :nono2:


----------



## PoitNarf

Enough about other providers...

:backtotop


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> I am with Chris on this one. I work in the oil & gas industry and have worked on several large projects and can tell you that it is almost unheard of for us to be on time, much less within budget.
> 
> So kudos to Directv for being on the verge of making this happen!
> 
> Cheers,
> John


I completely agree!. I have been a project manager on a number of different energy related projects. You can have 19 sub tasks going perfectly, and there always seems to be one that has some problem that prevents the next total project phase from starting until all those 20 are compete. It is called "critical path". To use a house building analogy. if the concrete sub makes a mistake on the foundations and has to do it over again, the framing, wiring, plumbing and roof are going to slip their start dates. 
Getting D!0 in orbit, tested, and running is an orders of magnitude more complex task than building a house. So I too am impressed! I

We will soon forget any few days plus or minus on the actual start up date after D10 is working.

However, I expect the gripe then will be why they turn on only 75 HD channels instead of 100! I will be happy with even 10 more!


----------



## B Newt

Now lets hope the debries from the sat that China blew out of the sky dosnt hit our sats.


----------



## wilmot3

1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390

just got these i think they r newer than what has been posted


----------



## LameLefty

wilmot3 said:


> 1 31862U 07032A 07225.44284220 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 546
> 2 31862 000.1368 284.3947 0016252 024.9200 068.4414 01.00196347 390
> 
> just got these i think they r newer than what has been posted


Nope, sorry. Those are the previous set.


----------



## Ken984

Current as of 1245 cdt, its hangning out right around 102.6....very good!!
1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6366° W
Lat	0.0435° S
Alt (km)	35 808.170
Azm	196.2°
Elv	51.0°
RA	08h 25m 15s
Decl	-5° 18' 39"
Range (km)	37 033.255
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.073
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	189.0° (134)
TA	188.9°
Orbit #	40
Mag (illum)	? (4%)
Constellation	Hya


----------



## MIAMI1683

And so it finally looks to have reached a point it can park. Now as fae as e* goes :-( good for them but can't wait for D10 to come alive and start sending programming.


----------



## purtman

Ken984 said:


> Current as of 1245 cdt, its hangning out right around 102.6....very good!!
> 1DIRECTV10
> Lon	102.6366° W
> Lat	0.0435° S
> Alt (km)	35 808.170
> Azm	196.2°
> Elv	51.0°
> RA	08h 25m 15s
> Decl	-5° 18' 39"
> Range (km)	37 033.255
> RRt (km/s)	0.000
> Vel (km/s)	3.073
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	189.0° (134)
> TA	188.9°
> Orbit #	40
> Mag (illum)	? (4%)
> Constellation	Hya


Is this where it should be for testing?


----------



## PoitNarf

purtman said:


> Is this where it should be for testing?


I think the testing slot is 102.885 or something like that?


----------



## cforrest

Still going a little N & S of the equator on the orbit I see from the last 2 TLEs, but looking good regardless.


----------



## VeniceDre

PoitNarf said:


> I think the testing slot is 102.885 or something like that?


Testing slot is 102.6

They got permission to move Spaceway 1 to 102.885 temporarily to give D10 some room for testing.


----------



## bakers12

PoitNarf said:


> I think the testing slot is 102.885 or something like that?


I'm pretty sure the test slot is 102.6. 102.885 is where Spaceway 1 is located during the testing IIRC. I'd have to look that up to be positive.


----------



## LameLefty

Test slot is 102.6W, final operational slot is 102.8W. 

Per my tracking software, it's currently at 102.79W as of 1:45 CDT, but that said, I'm pretty sure that there are are more tweaks to come today, one to circularize further and another to knock most of the remaining inclination out - they may combine those maneuvers into one or do them separately, but either way I think new TLEs tonight or tomorrow will show one or both of those numbers lower still.


----------



## mx6bfast

RAD said:


> The rumor was that someone made a BIG mistake and they almost lost SW1, it took them awhile to recover from that error.


Where can I find info about this. I've googled and haven't returned any info.


----------



## RAD

mx6bfast said:


> Where can I find info about this. I've googled and haven't returned any info.


LonghornXP over at the other guys site had a pipeline into what was going on when he lived down in FL. It was some posts from him that provided that information. I asked him recently if he ever found out exactly what the problem was but he never could get a clear answer, guess Boeing didn't want to say they messed up and look bad.


----------



## Alexandrepsf

Hi guys,

Are they still on schedule for the launch of new HD channels in 3-4 weeks?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Alexandrepsf said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Are they still on schedule for the launch of new HD channels in 3-4 weeks?


As of right now all signs look good for new HD channels launching some time next month. There has been a lot of rumored dates next month as early as the very beginning to as late as about the 3rd week of September.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok spoke with my firned this afternoon and they havn't been told of any changes in the timel;ine. They are extremely bust down in S. Fla and he has been told by mid-month. Originally he was told by the 9th if possible but who kows if that is possible. He also said they are giving a lot of stuff away right now for new customers but after d10 goes live it will change quite a bit.


----------



## houskamp

Make sure you all get your esata drive soon.. gonna be a shortage in a month :lol:


----------



## dmurphy

BudShark said:


> I'm actually impressed that DirecTV is this close to a 2 1/2 year announced project timeline. Not many companies can hold that close - especially when it involves multiple partners.


Let's also keep in mind that a rocket blew up on the pad at the original launch company; not only did they have to negotiate a launch with another party, but then they had to change everything - new launch vehicle, new mating mechanisms, shipped to a different part of the world, and of course - a very different launch trajectory.

Way to go team!! This sort of planning & coordination is what makes DirecTV so great. I can say - truthfully - that when DirecTV sets a hard date, they always seem to make it.

I know there are a lot of incredibly passionate people at DirecTV and I'm looking forward to reaping the benefits of their hard work! (Even more than I am already ...)


----------



## EaglePC

Are We There Yet :?


----------



## Ken984

dmurphy said:


> Let's also keep in mind that a rocket blew up on the pad at the original launch company; not only did they have to negotiate a launch with another party, but then they had to change everything - new launch vehicle, new mating mechanisms, shipped to a different part of the world, and of course - a very different launch trajectory.
> 
> Way to go team!! This sort of planning & coordination is what makes DirecTV so great. I can say - truthfully - that when DirecTV sets a hard date, they always seem to make it.
> 
> I know there are a lot of incredibly passionate people at DirecTV and I'm looking forward to reaping the benefits of their hard work! (Even more than I am already ...)


I could be wrong but there was no delay to D10 due to SeaLaunch having an "anomaly" this was always scheduled for ILS, D11 is the one that has been delayed due to SeaLaunch's explosion. However even with that this is still a huge deal to get it all working and I applaud D* on their efforts.
btw, latest position according to my software....

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6570° W
Lat	0.0744° S
Alt (km)	35 757.590
Azm	196.2°
Elv	51.0°
RA	15h 57m 20s
Decl	-5° 21' 11"
Range (km)	36 985.337
RRt (km/s)	-0.003
Vel (km/s)	3.076
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	302.0° (214)
TA	302.0°
Orbit #	40
Mag (illum)	? (55%)
Constellation	Oph


----------



## RAD

dmurphy said:


> Let's also keep in mind that a rocket blew up on the pad at the original launch company; not only did they have to negotiate a launch with another party, but then they had to change everything - new launch vehicle, new mating mechanisms, shipped to a different part of the world, and of course - a very different launch trajectory.


I don't believe that is correct. D10 was always set to be launched by ILS at Baikonur and D11 was a SeaLaunch, SeaLaunch was what had a rocket failure in January.


----------



## morgantown

RAD said:


> I don't believe that is correct. D10 was always set to be launched by ILS at Baikonur and D11 was a SeaLaunch, SeaLaunch was what had a rocket failure in January.


Yea you and Ken are correct. D10 was unaffected by the issue with Sea Launch. Still this is a long time coming and so far so good.

I just wish DTV had a channel just for D10 progress. Something that only those with the super secret decoder ring could tune in .


----------



## EaglePC

latest stats .I did call D early and talk to a great person due to my old problem i was having.
this person i can trust his word they will give no info on any HD ,they want to suprise all there customers
what you think is that a true statement


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> latest stats .I did call D early and talk to a great person due to my old problem i was having.
> this person i can trust his word they will give no info on any HD ,they want to suprise all there customers
> what you think is that a true statement


Most likely the CSR you spoke to didn't have any information to give you regarding the upcoming HD launch.


----------



## VeniceDre

Ny2o has finally got it updated... It's at 102.63 on their website now.


----------



## MikeR

morgantown said:


> I just wish DTV had a channel just for D10 progress. Something that only those with the super secret decoder ring could tune in .


Maybe we could get the ISS to send us some pictures?

Or maybe a new Discovery special "Inside D* TT&C" in HiDef


----------



## khoyme

John4924 said:


> I am with Chris on this one. I work in the oil & gas industry and have worked on several large projects and can tell you that it is almost unheard of for us to be on time, much less within budget.
> 
> So kudos to Directv for being on the verge of making this happen!
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Not to take anything away from D*'s solid performance in this regard, some of that may well be their partnership with Boeing. I worked on the Boeing 777 (I worked for Honeywell - one of their 15,000 suppliers -- we built the integrated flight deck electronics). Boeing launched that program in October 1990 with an order from United. They promised a May 15, 1995 delivery, with 180 minute ETOPS rating (never done on an aircraft when initially certified before).

As I mentioned, Boeing managed 15,000 suppliers, built a new manufacturing plant (with all of the Seattle based environmental issues), and assembled a plane with 8 million parts.

They delivered aircraft #1 to United on May 15, 1995. To the day they promised 4.5 years earlier.

Boeing knows how to manage a complex aerospace schedule. So, using the Boeing 702 bus for D10 may have been a lot of the reason D* is running so close to schedule right now. I am in awe of Boeing's program management capabilities.

Ken


----------



## cforrest

Ken,

Not to get off-topic, but boeing's management capabilities are going to be tested big time with the 787. If they deliver that sucker on time, then as you said, Boeing knows how to manage a complex aerospace schedule!


----------



## lwilli201

Yes, Boeing seems to get it right most of the time. They have many years experience. Then you have AirBus that is in a slow meltdown.


----------



## Sixto

VeniceDre said:


> Ny2o has finally got it updated... It's at 102.63 on their website now.


Beautiful. Right where it was planned. 102.6. Lookin great ... another 3-4 weeks until HD paradise!

"After launch and orbit raising maneuvers, DIRECTV 10 will be located at 102.6° W.L. [on or about August 17, 2007]."

"After DIRECTV 10 reaches 102.6° W.L., DIRECTV will then commence IOT of the satellite [from about August 17, 2007 to September 12, 2007]."

"After IOT is completed, DIRECTV 10 will then be drifted to its assigned location over the course of approximately three days [reaching that orbital position on or about September 15, 2007]"

Maybe a few days early!


----------



## dmurphy

morgantown said:


> Yea you and Ken are correct. D10 was unaffected by the issue with Sea Launch. Still this is a long time coming and so far so good.
> 
> I just wish DTV had a channel just for D10 progress. Something that only those with the super secret decoder ring could tune in .


Mea Culpa. Don't want to spread false rumors - I thought D10 got bumped back, but I guess not. Sorry!


----------



## purtman

dmurphy said:


> Mea Culpa. Don't want to spread false rumors - I thought D10 got bumped back, but I guess not. Sorry!


There was a two-week delay from Boeing at one point. However, even though D11 was pushed back to early next year (because of the Sealaunch explosion), that will be earlier than the "early next year" estimates. I'm not sure of the date, but I know there is a thread somewhere on this site.


----------



## davring

I would have to think that a great deal of D*'s prowess in aerospace comes from the grand daddy of satellite communications, Hughes. Hughes pioneered this business.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ken984 said:


> dmurphy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let's also keep in mind that a rocket blew up on the pad at the original launch company; not only did they have to negotiate a launch with another party, but then they had to change everything - new launch vehicle, new mating mechanisms, shipped to a different part of the world, and of course - a very different launch trajectory.
> 
> Way to go team!! This sort of planning & coordination is what makes DirecTV so great. I can say - truthfully - that when DirecTV sets a hard date, they always seem to make it.
> 
> I know there are a lot of incredibly passionate people at DirecTV and I'm looking forward to reaping the benefits of their hard work! (Even more than I am already ...)
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong but there was no delay to D10 due to SeaLaunch having an "anomaly" this was always scheduled for ILS, D11 is the one that has been delayed due to SeaLaunch's explosion. However even with that this is still a huge deal to get it all working and I applaud D* on their efforts.
Click to expand...

You are correct. To expound, there were some incorrect data sent out that confused several of the launch calendars. Some showed D11 launching before D10 and reversed the launch vehicles. Slowly they were corrected showing D10 on ILS Launch as had always been planned.

D11 is delayed by the explosion of the Zenit's Engine destroying parts of the launch pad; but this was not the fault of Sea Launch.

All is good, D10 is oh so close to being ready and I'm more than ready. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## tgater

This is almost like musical chairs!


----------



## khoyme

cforrest said:


> Ken,
> 
> Not to get off-topic, but boeing's management capabilities are going to be tested big time with the 787. If they deliver that sucker on time, then as you said, Boeing knows how to manage a complex aerospace schedule!


We shall see - there was a point in 1992 when the chip that implemented the fault tolerant communication protocol that I co-invented was on the critical path for the 777's first flight. I would have bet significant amounts of my own money that that program would be one where Boeing missed. But they pulled it in on time (and now - 12 years later, there are no hull loss incidents - so they didn't do this by cutting safety).

The only airplane they missed on was the 747-400, due to labor strikes. So, lets see how the 787 plays out. I suspect will be delivered on time, and fly safe. But who knows....

Ken


----------



## khoyme

davring said:


> I would have to think that a great deal of D*'s prowess in aerospace comes from the grand daddy of satellite communications, Hughes. Hughes pioneered this business.


Nah - that was all Margaret Easley






:grin:


----------



## bobnielsen

davring said:


> I would have to think that a great deal of D*'s prowess in aerospace comes from the grand daddy of satellite communications, Hughes. Hughes pioneered this business.


I remember it like it was only 44 years ago (Syncom 2 was launched on July 26, 1963). It' s not widely known but there were some experimental television transmissions made with it (highly compressed: B&W-lite?)


----------



## harsh

khoyme said:


> Boeing knows how to manage a complex aerospace schedule. So, using the Boeing 702 bus for D10 may have been a lot of the reason D* is running so close to schedule right now.


We're talking about different Boeing divisions. For D10, it was Khrunichev that publicly threw Boeing under the bus for the two week delay in getting the satellite to Baikonur. Previous tardy deliveries are also documented. Prior to the scheduled June launch, the launch was planned for April give or take a month and prior to that it was scheduled for "early 2007".

You might surmise that if Boeing was late for the scheduled June launch, they probably weren't ready for any of the previous dates either.


----------



## LameLefty

harsh said:


> We're talking about different Boeing divisions. For D10, it was Khrunichev that publicly threw Boeing under the bus for the two week delay in getting the satellite to Baikonur. Previous tardy deliveries are also documented. Prior to the scheduled June launch, the launch was planned for April give or take a month and prior to that it was scheduled for "early 2007".
> 
> You might surmise that if Boeing was late for the scheduled June launch, they probably weren't ready for any of the previous dates either.


Oh cut the FUD. April IS "early 207." So really, once you cut through your spin, the net delay is April to July - that's three months on a schedule that's over 2-1/2 years long. How much scheduling work have YOU done for international aerospace projects? I did stuff like this for over three years early in my career and let me tell you from personal experience (working for Boeing at the time, by the way) that three months out of a thirty month schedule in this industry is darned good, actually, especially compared to the planned spacecraft lifetime of 15 years.


----------



## LameLefty

And folks, we are PARKED at 102.81. 

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07228.47929369 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 567
2 31862 000.1312 286.3725 0000549 062.5402 045.4343 01.00271756 427

Look at that eccentricity! That's as circular as a GSO gets.


----------



## n2deep2bn

LameLefty said:


> And folks, we are PARKED at 102.81.
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07228.47929369 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 567
> 2 31862 000.1312 286.3725 0000549 062.5402 045.4343 01.00271756 427
> 
> Look at that eccentricity! That's as circular as a GSO gets.


Isn't this suppose to be the finally parking spot?


----------



## Ken984

Excellent work D10 all the way around!!!
I am glad to see it finally resting.


----------



## Ken984

I would assume that it could be slowly drifted to 102.6 for testing. or the optimist in me says they tested it while it was drifting around 103 the last 3 days and they are ready to get down to business!! Wishful thinking probably but anyway its that much closer to being in service!!
According to my software its at 102.665 right now.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6650° W
Lat	0.0595° N
Alt (km)	35 785.800
Azm	196.3°
Elv	51.1°
RA	04h 41m 10s
Decl	-5° 11' 50"
Range (km)	37 004.487
RRt (km/s)	0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	82.7° (59)
TA	82.7°
Orbit #	42
Mag (illum)	? (37%)
Constellation	Eri


----------



## LameLefty

And a postcard from home:


----------



## PoitNarf

LameLefty said:


> And folks, we are PARKED at 102.81.





Ken984 said:


> According to my software its at 102.665 right now.


So which is it? Are we closer to the testing slot or the final parking spot?


----------



## Smthkd

Good question! I was wondering the same thing!


----------



## BudShark

Either way we're closer to new HD channels!


----------



## Ken984

I am not sure at this point, its probably drifiting East. But it could be as simple as Lefty's program and mine are using slightly different calculations.


----------



## bakers12

D10 is closer to the testing spot.


----------



## LameLefty

> According to my software its at 102.665 right now.


Interesting. What software are you using? I am using MacDoppler, an app used by ham radio operators and satellite trackers to point their antennas, plus Starry Night Pro 5 for the visuals I'm posting.


----------



## Ken984

I have Orbitron, found it thru google...I would bet that somewhere one of the programs is going one decimal place farther than the other and that could explain the difference, my software shows it drifting slowly towards the equator but it hasnt budged from 102.665 since my earlier post.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6650° W
Lat	0.0455° N
Alt (km)	35 786.140
Azm	196.3°
Elv	51.1°
RA	05h 14m 44s
Decl	-5° 12' 47"
Range (km)	37 005.776
RRt (km/s)	0.001
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	91.0° (64)
TA	91.1°
Orbit #	42
Mag (illum)	? (30%)
Constellation	Ori
2Sun


----------



## LameLefty

Yeah, I don't know what the difference could be caused by. I will investigate further and see what I come up with. Once the n2y0 site updates their TLEs to the latest set, I will compare what they show to what I'm getting.


----------



## Ken984

Ok now that i posted that it hadn't budged, it budged.
102.6651 now. So it is drifting slowly West according to my software.


----------



## LameLefty

Still locked on 102.81 according to mine, but I don't know. Are you using the correct time in your program? The local - UTC issue can sometimes trip up satellite watchers.


----------



## Smthkd

LameLefty, you think maybe your software is based on final locality and Orbitron is including slight calculations for the testing period?


----------



## PoitNarf

LameLefty said:


> Still locked on 102.81 according to mine, but I don't know.


So if it is indeed at 102.8 right now, will they be drifting it towards 102.6 or it's there to stay? Do you think they did some testing while it was hovering around 103 for the past couple of days like Ken speculates?


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Still locked on 102.81 according to mine, but I don't know. Are you using the correct time in your program? The local - UTC issue can sometimes trip up satellite watchers.


If it is really locked at 102.81 and with those latest TLE data, is it possible the testing is over and they are moving it into position to go live early since 102.8 is the operational slot? Probably too optimistic, but it will get me to look at ch 499 and the 103 signal strengths occasionally now.


----------



## Interceptor

I use Orbitron and STSPlus

A comparison of the two showed, at the same time:

STSPlus
Lat = .04N
Lon = 102.67W

Orbitron
Lat = .0298N
Lon = 102.6652W

That was at 15:07UTC


----------



## LameLefty

Smthkd said:


> LameLefty, you think maybe your software is based on final locality and Orbitron is including slight calculations for the testing period?


Nope, both programs are using the same NORAD two-line elements and are calculating in "real time" based on that. However, the internal algorithms required to convert that data into a position over the surface of the Earth will be unique to each program, and even if they're using common mathematical libraries in the compilers used to write them, they are obviously implementing the numbers in different ways.

To be fair, I've never used Orbitron. I used to use STSOrbit Plus back in my DOS and Win9x days but on the Mac, the best solution is MacDoppler, used by ham operators to point computer-controlled antenna rotors to track hamsats and the ham transponders hanging off the ISS. I know CBS News also used to use MacDoppler during Shuttle-Mir docking missions and early ISS flights. So I trust the numbers I'm getting, assuming all my setup parameters are correct (and they may not be - I'm checking all that now but haven't found anything yet).

I'm somewhat concerned that the older DOS-based programs like STSOrbit Plus don't accurately deal with post Y2K issues - and there is some hint of these concerns in older sat-tracking pages Google turned up, so who knows? As I said, I'll keep looking into it.


----------



## Ken984

As far as I can tell its using the correct time, i can click back and forth between utc and cdt 15:19 vs 10:19....but that utc stuff always confuses me. The numbers aren't that far off either way, its very very close


----------



## Smthkd

I see! Thanks for the response! I guess the best thing is that either way we are closer to those HD goodies!


----------



## jrodfoo

Smthkd said:


> I see! Thanks for the response! I guess the best thing is that either way we are closer to those HD goodies!


Ditto on that!

glad to see the parallel parking went ok :lol:


----------



## Ken984

Yep its been a long road, can't wait to see it light up.


----------



## mike_augie

From what I understand ..(from others)..they will have to send a software download (update) in order for the recievers to see the new transponders?? I wonder if they will wait to do this until the channels are turned on or if they will give us a chance to tweek our dishs for good signal on the new placed on the second sat (d10) at...I get high 80's now on the 3 signals I get for lil now on the old 103 just wondering what that will equate to with the new one just off of that a bit???


----------



## bobnielsen

Anything other than N/A would be nice!


----------



## jrodfoo

with this new Sat and HD content coming, and Football starting... it's a great time of year..


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> Interesting. What software are you using? I am using MacDoppler, an app used by ham radio operators and satellite trackers to point their antennas, plus Starry Night Pro 5 for the visuals I'm posting.


You have certainly captured my interest in this subject! I downloaded the demo version of MacDoppler 2.0.4 for Mac for a tryout . The demo only runs 5 minutes at a time, so I restarted it a few times, learning more each time to hopefully get the basics and get DirecTV 10s data entered. I imported the following TLE as a text file and it seemed to fire up and work and plot D10 on the map correctly:



> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07226.29119973 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 551
> 2 31862 0.1354 285.5489 0007896 13.0817 25.6875 1.00310808 392


It set the time correctly automatically to Pacific time -7 hr UTC, put DirecTV in the track list and I copied down the following at about 10:34 PDT:

Lat:-0.05 ( and drifting south)
Long:102.62
Alt: 22251.1
Apogee: 23:18:16
vel: -0.00

Does this look like I did it right? If so it would seem to confirm your time settings:
My earth location is in their site list for my lat./long. to a decimal or so.

I get only two decimals on Longitude. I note you got three decimals.

I have permanent telescope in a dome in my backyard under a Windows XP PC laptop computer control ( Using The Sky), so I am interested in this stuff and may buy the program since D11 is coming and I see other uses even though I am not involved in ham radio. I am a member of the American Association of Variable Star Observers and occassionally contribute data on special interest star flare ups. I see a lot of satellites flying over and wonder what they are.

You have taught me a lot about sat orbits since I did not know what a TLE was a month ago. Thanks


----------



## Ken984

No that TLE is old ,use this one.


1 31862U 07032A 07228.47929369 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 567
2 31862 000.1312 286.3725 0000549 062.5402 045.4343 01.00271756 427


----------



## syphix

How do you enter these TLE's into Orbitron?? I'm creating a text file, but it's not working...


----------



## Ken984

Its just a simple text, sat name on the top line
2nd and 3rd lines are the TLE.
You will have to adjust the formatting of the TLE some, when its pasted here it moves some of the numbers closer together for some reason. Open one of the existing TLE's from Orbitron and look at the formatting it needs to be exactly the same. Or look at the TLE on n2yo, it is formatted properly, its fairly simple to fix its a cpl extra spaces on the top line and 1 on the bottom line i think.


----------



## bakers12

Create a .txt file in C:\Program Files\Orbitron\Tle\ or edit geo.txt then use the Load TLE button.


----------



## bakers12

Rocket science is not my specialty, but I noticed that the orbital period is 0.7 minutes longer than other sats in geostationary orbit. I'm thinking that means there will be a *slight* drift towards the West.

I guess there's still another tweak or two left.


----------



## Ken984

I made a new txt file just for D10 then i copied and pasted the tle from n2yo there, then pasted the new tle below it so i could make them both line up properly, then delete the original tle and the spaces left, use the last 3 digits on the end of each line to determine if its lined up, they should line up.


----------



## syphix

Got it! Thanks!


----------



## Ken984

I would agree with you on that, and my software has shown it moving very slowly west...current as of 207 pm cdt.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6699° W
Lat	0.0762° S
Alt (km)	35 788.290
Azm	196.2°
Elv	51.0°
RA	09h 49m 55s
Decl	-5° 21' 02"
Range (km)	37 016.231
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	159.8° (113)
TA	159.8°
Orbit #	42
Mag (illum)	? (1%)


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> Its just a simple text, sat name on the top line
> 2nd and 3rd lines are the TLE.
> You will have to adjust the formatting of the TLE some, when its pasted here it moves some of the numbers closer together for some reason. Open one of the existing TLE's from Orbitron and look at the formatting it needs to be exactly the same. Or look at the TLE on n2yo, it is formatted properly, its fairly simple to fix its a cpl extra spaces on the top line and 1 on the bottom line i think.


 Thanks Ken, I had the same format problem. Simple copy and paste created an unworkable text file. After checking the spacing ( especially noting the decimal point locations were the same) MacDoppler works ( on an Intel duo Mac) with these readings at 12:05 PDT:

Lat: -0.09
Long: 102.81
Altitude 22238.9

I also discovered I can enter the TLE data in my Astronomy program "The Sky" and computes the D10 position , but in Hr,min,sec astronomy format.

edit: TLE used:



> DIRECTV10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07228.47929369 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 567
> 2 31862 000.1312 286.3725 0000549 062.5402 045.4343 01.00271756 427


Data look a little different from yours. I will defer to Lefty for comment. I could be doing this wrong.


----------



## LameLefty

Looks like you guys got it figured out. 

I also figured out that MY version of MacDoppler (which is a bit old, MacDopplerLite) has a bug in the floating point calculations, apparently when run on an Intel Mac. Bummer.  

I downloaded a Java tracking applet and managed to get it to run (had to go download Sun Java 1.6 from the Apple Developer Site since Apple hasn't released it yet, even though it's 11 months old) and your numbers are correct.

I will download a trial of the new MacDoppler version and will try to get the current TLE's up and running with it.


----------



## Ken984

Cool deal, i knew it was something under the hood that was causing the discrepancy.


----------



## Xmaniac

Hey guys! I Been following this thread all along (one of the many lurkers).

Just wanted to say thank you for a forum that I can track D10s progress.

Lamelefty you're the greatest with all the info you have been providing. I Just wanted to let you know that all of your work is not going unappreciated.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Xmaniac said:


> Hey guys! I Been following this thread all along (one of the many lurkers).
> 
> Just wanted to say thank you for a forum that I can track D10s progress.
> 
> Lamelefty you're the greatest with all the info you have been providing. I Just wanted to let you know that all of your work is not going unappreciated.


Couldn't have said it better myself

Great Job


----------



## mike_augie

Xmaniac said:


> Hey guys! I Been following this thread all along (one of the many lurkers).
> 
> Just wanted to say thank you for a forum that I can track D10s progress.
> 
> Lamelefty you're the greatest with all the info you have been providing. I Just wanted to let you know that all of your work is not going unappreciated.


I would agree....but you still need to jump up there and move it over to the transmitting postition and out of testing position...


----------



## LameLefty

Thanks guys - now I'm just trying to track down why I'm getting different numbers from the other sat trackers. I thought it was a bug in my version of MacDopplerLite on Intel Macs but now I'm not so sure. Using current TLEs in the very recent version I get the same longitude: 102.81W. This is VERY vexing. Grrrrr.


----------



## Steve Robertson

Lefty can't you get these channels lit up for us it seems you do everything else.


----------



## VeniceDre

Steve Robertson said:


> Lefty can't you get these channels lit up for us it seems you do everything else.


Yeah Lefty, what's your problem?


----------



## EaglePC

move the dish by a hair and you see the HD channels


----------



## VeniceDre

EaglePC said:


> move the dish by a hair and you see the HD channels


Huh?


----------



## Interceptor

I'm not sure either, Lefty. At first I was actually more prone to the error being in the Orbitron model. However, I checked via STSPlus again, and the difference seemed to be moreso in the latitude vs. the longitude placement. But, the error between those two programs showed a placement difference of 1.0581 statute miles. I also run SatScape at home, and I'll compare it when I get there, seeing that the STSPlus program is quite old itself. It's been a good one, though!


----------



## John4924

Xmaniac said:


> Hey guys! I Been following this thread all along (one of the many lurkers).
> 
> Just wanted to say thank you for a forum that I can track D10s progress.
> 
> Lamelefty you're the greatest with all the info you have been providing. I Just wanted to let you know that all of your work is not going unappreciated.


Same here, and :welcome_s to the forum!


----------



## donshan

I entered the TLE Ken posted above into the "satellite position" in my "The Sky" astronomy program and it computes D10 as:

Long. 102.6717 W at 1:14 PM PDT on a Dell PC Intel duo with Windows XP. This is a little west of Ken's but since Ken's observed a drift west this could account for the difference due to the aprox. 1 hour time difference in the two calculations.

Hope this additional data point from another software package will help the discussion.

I do not plan to continue posting locations and will leave it to Ken, Lefty and others who have more experience.


----------



## LameLefty

Interceptor said:


> I'm not sure either, Lefty. At first I was actually more prone to the error being in the Orbitron model. However, I checked via STSPlus again, and the difference seemed to be moreso in the latitude vs. the longitude placement. But, the error between those two programs showed a placement difference of 1.0581 statute miles. I also run SatScape at home, and I'll compare it when I get there, seeing that the STSPlus program is quite old itself. It's been a good one, though!


I'm beginning to wonder if it's just the implementation of the different math libraries used to compile the various programs - most of the PC and Java guys are using one thing, perhaps the one guy doing Mac dev work on satellite tracking is using another.

By my admittedly VERY rough estimates, a tenth of a degree difference at GSO is roughly 46 miles and makes a fraction of a difference in azimuth angle from the ground. But now I'm just p*$$ed off that I can figure out the actual reason for the different numbers. :lol:


----------



## Steve Robertson

LameLefty said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if it's just the implementation of the different math libraries used to compile the various programs - most of the PC and Java guys are using one thing, perhaps the one guy doing Mac dev work on satellite tracking is using another.
> 
> By my admittedly VERY rough estimates, a tenth of a degree difference at GSO is roughly 46 miles and makes a fraction of a difference in azimuth angle from the ground. But now I'm just p*$$ed off that I can figure out the actual reason for the different numbers. :lol:


I guess you will have to work late tonight to figure it out:lol:


----------



## Ken984

lol, don't worry about it Lefty, i would bet one or the other is rounding off 1 decimal point here or there, there are a LOT of them to round...7 places in the eccentricity alone...anyway...353 pm cdt, here are my readings...

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6730° W
Lat	0.1029° S
Alt (km)	35 788.420
Azm	196.2°
Elv	50.9°
RA	11h 35m 24s
Decl	-5° 22' 51"
Range (km)	37 018.224
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	186.2° (132)
TA	186.2°
Orbit #	42
Mag (illum)	? (8%)
Constellation	Vir


----------



## Interceptor

LameLefty said:


> By my admittedly VERY rough estimates, a tenth of a degree difference at GSO is roughly 46 miles and makes a fraction of a difference in azimuth angle from the ground. :lol:


Aw, heck! You're right. I didn't factor in the GSO of the two readings. My difference in the two programs was the distance between the two points estimated roughly at sea level. Well, back to the chalkboard.


----------



## ejjames

I really enjoy visiting the JTrack web site from NASA. I know it's not nearly as advanced as what you guys are doing, and is mostly for show, but to just step back and look at it all is amazing!

ej


----------



## Interceptor

It appears that Orbitron and SatScape are using the same algorithm, as this is what I got with the latest elset:

DIRECTV 10 
Orbitron 
Lon	102.6751° W 
Lat	0.1090° S 
Alt (km)	35 788.230 
Azm	207.2° 
Elv	47.6° 


SatScape
Lon 102.675W
Lat .11S
Alt 22238 mi
Azimuth 207.2
Elevation 47.6

I'm still interested in what n2yo shows when their set is updated.


----------



## mx6bfast

LameLefty said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if it's just the implementation of the different math libraries used to compile the various programs - most of the PC and Java guys are using one thing, perhaps the one guy doing Mac dev work on satellite tracking is using another.
> 
> By my admittedly VERY rough estimates, a tenth of a degree difference at GSO is roughly 46 miles and makes a fraction of a difference in azimuth angle from the ground. But now I'm just p*$$ed off that I can figure out the actual reason for the different numbers. :lol:


User error.


----------



## computersecguy

Anyone else thinking that this is taking longer than christmas when you were five? This next month is going to be the longest...


----------



## jsquash

computersecguy said:


> Anyone else thinking that this is taking longer than christmas when you were five? This next month is going to be the longest...


That is almost the exact thing I was thinking:lol:


----------



## syphix

Believe me....when those HD channels light up, it WILL be like Christmas morning!


----------



## Smthkd

I think this is more like how we all will be!!!!!


----------



## syphix

As of 10:18pm Central:

DIRECTV10
Lon 102.6793° W
Lat 0.0239° S
Alt (km) 35 785.580
Azm 193.2°
Elv 37.4°


----------



## n2deep2bn

syphix said:


> As of 10:00pm Central:
> 
> DIRECTV10
> Lon	102.6794° W
> Lat	0.0316° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.750
> Azm	295.9°
> Elv	-26.0°


If this is right it is moving slow.


----------



## syphix

Sorry....updated (had settings wrong...)

It's actually moving even SLOWER!

As of 10:17pm Central:

DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6793° W
Lat	0.0239° S
Alt (km)	35 785.580
Azm	193.2°
Elv	37.4°


----------



## n2deep2bn

syphix said:


> Sorry....updated (had settings wrong...)
> 
> It's actually moving even SLOWER!
> 
> As of 10:17pm Central:
> 
> DIRECTV10
> Lon	102.6793° W
> Lat	0.0239° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.580
> Azm	193.2°
> Elv	37.4°


This doesn't look good.


----------



## syphix

n2deep2bn said:


> This doesn't look good.


Why??


----------



## n2deep2bn

syphix said:


> Why??[/QUOTE
> 
> It's moving to slow for me. I wanna see it at 102.8


----------



## syphix

n2deep2bn said:


> It's moving to slow for me. I wanna see it at 102.8


Agreed.


----------



## houskamp

alright who's got the telescope to see if it's opened yet? :lol:


----------



## Firefighter

What does it mean when for it to be at 102.8 ? Sorry, newb question.


----------



## PoitNarf

Firefighter said:


> What does it mean when for it to be at 102.8 ? Sorry, newb question.


102.8 longitude is the final orbital slot for D10. When it's parked at 102.8 after testing, it will be ready to start broadcasting our new HD goodness.


----------



## EaglePC

Are We There Yet :?


----------



## Firefighter

PoitNarf said:


> 102.8 longitude is the final orbital slot for D10. When it's parked at 102.8 after testing, it will be ready to start broadcasting our new HD goodness.


So once it's there, how long does testing take ? How long will it take to get there from where it is now ?


----------



## Hamiltony

another long time lurker here who has wore out the F5 on both my computers on this thread. does anyone know how long to migrate from d10's current testing position to it's final resting place? it seems to me that is the trigger. when we see the sat start to drift over, it'll be "x" number of days till light up (+/- a day or two for final tweaks). we can all speculate, and it really is fun to do so, but we will know FOR SURE, when she starts to drift.


----------



## EaglePC

3 weeks to 30 Days,mostly maybe sooner anyways we could see CNN as one channel in High-Def Sept 1, 2007


----------



## PoitNarf

Hamiltony said:


> another long time lurker here who has wore out the F5 on both my computers on this thread. does anyone know how long to migrate from d10's current testing position to it's final resting place? it seems to me that is the trigger. when we see the sat start to drift over, it'll be "x" number of days till light up (+/- a day or two for final tweaks). we can all speculate, and it really is fun to do so, but we will know FOR SURE, when she starts to drift.





Firefighter said:


> How long will it take to get there from where it is now ?


The FCC filing details about a 3 day time frame to move D10 from it's testing position to it's final broadcasting position.



Firefighter said:


> So once it's there, how long does testing take ?


Testing it believed to take approx 3-4 weeks according to what is in the FCC filing. Could be done sooner than that, but we just don't know at this point.


----------



## khoyme

Firefighter said:


> So once it's there, how long does testing take ? How long will it take to get there from where it is now ?


Testing is for wimps! Light 'er up!!!  :hurah:  :lol:


----------



## Smthkd

Gett'er Done!!


----------



## Hamiltony

PoitNarf said:


> The FCC filing details about a 3 day time frame to move D10 from it's testing position to it's final broadcasting position.


so when lefty and the other sattrackers tell us it is drifting over, we have about 3-5 days if my theory holds up. lefty et all, we are waiting on you.


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> Oh cut the FUD.


Call it what you want, but Boeing was late to the party.


> April IS "early 207."


April is Q2 by most accounts. Early ends some time in the first month or so. It doesn't really matter as both satellites (and possibly the third) were supposed to be DOG for an "early 2007" launch.


> So really, once you cut through your spin, the net delay is April to July - that's three months on a schedule that's over 2-1/2 years long.


You're assuming that they started construction in September of 2004. There were a few satellites in line before them including Spaceway 1 & 2, replacement SDARS satellites and the ill-fated NSS-8 bird.


> How much scheduling work have YOU done for international aerospace projects?


None whatsoever.


> I did stuff like this for over three years early in my career and let me tell you from personal experience (working for Boeing at the time, by the way) that three months out of a thirty month schedule in this industry is darned good, actually, especially compared to the planned spacecraft lifetime of 15 years.


Three months out of something around 20 months or less is at least 15% late. In my business, we build equipment that is far less expensive and often must agree to $1,000 per day penalties. Where there is motivation to complete, there is almost always a way.

What does the design life of the satellite have to do with its production time? A human has a design life of around 74 years, but the time to delivery is only nine months from date of order and the production time typically misses 38 weeks by an average of less than 8%.

Finally, I would point out/remind that Boeing Satellite Systems was originally Hughes Electronics Corporation back in the day and was not necessarily the product of the Boeing culture that you're familiar with.


----------



## EaglePC

where!


----------



## kaysersoze

harsh said:


> In my business, we build equipment that is far less expensive and often must agree to $1,000 per day penalties. Where there is motivation to complete, there is almost always a way.
> 
> 
> 
> You are proving Lefty's point. The scale is in a completely different league. I would hazard a guess that the less expensive equipment you are involved with is also less complicated, thus there are less things to go wrong. I'm sure Chase Carey would not bat an eyelash at the loss of $1000 (considering he makes that much each day before he finishes pouring his coffee) per day. So when people are stating how they are pretty close to the projected time frame, before you rush to contradict them remember this is *Rocket Science.
> *
Click to expand...


----------



## Alan Gordon

harsh said:


> Call it what you want, but Boeing was late to the party.April is Q2 by most accounts. Early ends some time in the first month or so. It doesn't really matter as both satellites (and possibly the third) were supposed to be DOG for an "early 2007" launch.


DirecTV-10 was indeed expected to be an EARLY 2007 launch (1Q was mentioned several times as well), and DirecTV-11 was supposed to be a Spring launch (April was mentioned several times, I believe).

Whether or not Boeing is the reason for the delay in launching either, or possibly securing a company to launch said satellites, or the possibility that DirecTV chose to ALTER some of the spots (or other equipment) on these satellites, I do not know.

What I DO KNOW, is that DirecTV-10 is in the air, and we didn't have the satellite builder go bankrupt (Space Systems/Loral) and Charlie trying to buy the satellite from SS/L out from under DirecTV like we did when we were waiting for DirecTV-7s to go up.

~Alan


----------



## purtman

Alan Gordon said:


> DirecTV-10 was indeed expected to be an EARLY 2007 launch (1Q was mentioned several times as well), and DirecTV-11 was supposed to be a Spring launch (April was mentioned several times, I believe).
> 
> Whether or not Boeing is the reason for the delay in launching either, or possibly securing a company to launch said satellites, or the possibility that DirecTV chose to ALTER some of the spots (or other equipment) on these satellites, I do not know.
> 
> What I DO KNOW, is that DirecTV-10 is in the air, and we didn't have the satellite builder go bankrupt (Space Systems/Loral) and Charlie trying to buy the satellite from SS/L out from under DirecTV like we did when we were waiting for DirecTV-7s to go up.
> 
> ~Alan


I don't recall DirecTV11 ever being Spring. D10? Yes, but D11? I thought when D* (not the rumors) came out, it said spring and second quarter, both which could mean anywhere from April through June. D* isn't as far off as many like to make it out to be.


----------



## Mikey

A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


----------



## RAD

That's GREAT news, guess they haven't been sitting on their hands at Boeing.


----------



## John4924

Mikey said:


> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


Great find, Mikey!

So the September 1 date may be in the cards as many of us have thought! 

Cheers,
John


----------



## MIAMI1683

Now we are getting there. If D* wants authority to operate from a different location they are very close. Even though its .025 degrees. I like what I am hearing. It looks like they are almost ready to hit the switch and light it up for us. Lefty we are all still waiting on you though.


----------



## Ken984

They will put it at 102.6 and SW2 will go back to 102.8 after all moves are complete. I can't see them changing that at this point in the game, but the new filing does indicate that its really almost ready, they wouldn't change the schedule now if they weren't "almost" there. Go D10!!! GO!!!


----------



## houskamp

like that last line :lol:


----------



## Hdhead

Once testing starts will we have a way to measure the signal with any exsisting receiver/software? Or do we need a software update? Can our dishes "see" 102.6?


----------



## Steve Robertson

Mikey said:


> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


Great find this is outstanding news lets hope it is true.


----------



## man_rob

This has been rumored for a while. It's nice to see some concrete evidence of the Labor Day Weekend start of D*'s HD. They should change their logo to HDirecTV.


----------



## Ken984

They will have to light up the transponders to test it, but right now our receivers are not programmed to "see" ka lo band, they will probably send down an authorization packet to turn those on, but until then, no you won't see anything from D10.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

Mikey said:


> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


The letter speaks of wanting to avoid an actual satellite collision. Is this even possible? I'd have thought there's a lot of space in space


----------



## jrodfoo

Very Nice Find with the Letter. 

It must be pretty tight quarters unless I'm totally reading that wrong. Which I probably am  

anyway, Labor Day weekend would be welcomed here!


----------



## mhayes70

wilbur_the_goose said:


> The letter speaks of wanting to avoid an actual satellite collision. Is this even possible? I'd have thought there's a lot of space in space


Good find. This is great news! It's looking good for the first part of Sept.


----------



## Earl Bonovich

Ken984 said:


> They will put it at 102.6 and SW2 will go back to 102.8 after all moves are complete. I can't see them changing that at this point in the game, but the new filing does indicate that its really almost ready, they wouldn't change the schedule now if they weren't "almost" there. Go D10!!! GO!!!


Ken...

Do you have a document or something on that...
As that is slightly a-skew from some of the things I have been hearing


----------



## syphix

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ken...
> 
> Do you have a document or something on that...
> As that is slightly a-skew from some of the things I have been hearing


What have you been hearing...?


----------



## Earl Bonovich

syphix said:


> What have you been hearing...?




Things that are pretty much confirmed in the FCC letter



Mikey said:


> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


----------



## cb7214

harsh said:


> Call it what you want, but Boeing was late to the party.April is Q2 by most accounts. Early ends some time in the first month or so. It doesn't really matter as both satellites (and possibly the third) were supposed to be DOG for an "early 2007" launch.You're assuming that they started construction in September of 2004. There were a few satellites in line before them including Spaceway 1 & 2, replacement SDARS satellites and the ill-fated NSS-8 bird.None whatsoever.Three months out of something around 20 months or less is at least 15% late. In my business, we build equipment that is far less expensive and often must agree to $1,000 per day penalties. Where there is motivation to complete, there is almost always a way.
> 
> What does the design life of the satellite have to do with its production time? A human has a design life of around 74 years, but the time to delivery is only nine months from date of order and the production time typically misses 38 weeks by an average of less than 8%.
> 
> Finally, I would point out/remind that Boeing Satellite Systems was originally Hughes Electronics Corporation back in the day and was not necessarily the product of the Boeing culture that you're familiar with.


who cares whats done is done :rant:


----------



## since 2/96

cb7214 said:


> who cares whats done is done :rant:


no kidding...i was waiting for the 'my Dad can beat up your Dad' battle...:lol:

c'mon September!


----------



## donshan

I loaded the complete list of NORAD Geostationary Satellite TLEs into my Astronomy Program "The Sky" and it plots all their their locations. It is a very crowded sky!

DirecTV10 has joined the fleet of DirecTV and all the others.

Clearly they have D10 right where they want it!  

You can see from this chart that manuvering D10 is like merging into a freeway at rushour except these birds are going thousands of miles an hour.

This chart was calculated for August 17, 10PM PDT. I cropped the image to magnify it some. The southern sky is so full of geosync sats at wide angle view, it wan't possible to separate and label them all. I don't know what some of these birds are, just NORAD says they are there and I copied the names.

Note the close proximity of AMC1 to Spaceway1:

[









And thanks again to LameLefty and Ken for the education. I have used this software for many years and did not know this feature was in there (Labels attached using Photoshop).


----------



## cb7214

Earl Bonovich said:


> Things that are pretty much confirmed in the FCC letter


anything else you can elaborate on?? :


----------



## Ken984

Earl Bonovich said:


> Ken...
> 
> Do you have a document or something on that...
> As that is slightly a-skew from some of the things I have been hearing


My bad, got my coordinates crossed up, 102.6 is testing slot. whoops


----------



## Steve Robertson

Wow things are pretty crowded up there I never realized there were so many birds floating around.


----------



## Ken984

donshan said:


> I loaded the complete list of NORAD Geostationary Satellite TLEs into my Astronomy Program "The Sky" and it plots all their their locations. It is a very crowded sky!
> 
> DirecTV10 has joined the fleet of DirecTV and all the others.
> 
> Clearly they have D10 right where they want it!
> 
> You can see from this chart that manuvering D10 is like merging into a freeway at rushour except these birds are going thousands of miles an hour.
> 
> This chart was calculated for August 17, 10PM PDT. I cropped the image to magnify it some. The southern sky is so full of geosync sats at wide angle view, it wan't possible to separate and label them all. I don't know what some of these birds are, just NORAD says they are there and I copied the names.
> 
> Note the close proximity of AMC1 to Spaceway1:
> 
> [
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And thanks again to LameLefty and Ken for the education. I have used this software for many years and did not know this feature was in there (Labels attached using Photoshop).


Maybe I am looking at it wrong but isn't that chart "upside down", wouldn't spaceway 1 be at 103...and spaceway 2 at 99. it looks like the right order just backwards.


----------



## purtman

Ken984 said:


> Maybe I am looking at it wrong but isn't that chart "upside down", wouldn't spaceway 1 be at 103...and spaceway 2 at 99. it looks like the right order just backwards.


He took it from outer space, looking back towards the earth!


----------



## Ken984

Directv 9s, 8 and 4s are all at 101 and Spaceway 1 is at 103 and Spaceway 2 is at 99 so it looks like North and South are backwards to me. On the chart it appears that its the other way around.


----------



## Richi

It seems that the point of ref is that of one looking south. In which case the east would be twards the left (D9,S2) and twards the right (AMC1,S1) of D10.


----------



## Ken984

Exactly, its right just not the way we are used to thinking about it, we think about it looking down from the equator towards North America...or at least I do. So 110 is to the left of 101 when I picture it in my mind. If I think of it as looking up at the sky from North America it makes sense too.


----------



## jrodfoo

I think this thread will get over 100,000 views in the coming days  thanks for all of the information to everyone who has provided such so far!


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> Maybe I am looking at it wrong but isn't that chart "upside down", wouldn't spaceway 1 be at 103...and spaceway 2 at 99. it looks like the right order just backwards.


 Yes, the view is from earth looking south if you could see them. The chart is used to control my Meade 10 inch telescope direction. Clicking on any object and then "Go To" slews the telescope to that spot.

The location of Spaceway 1 and 2 are what my computer screen indicates.

If I click on each sat. it gives all the data from which I converted longitudes from HR,Min,Sec. to decimal degrees ( I hope without a mistake!)

The Sky shows Spaceway 2 at (10PM PDT today calc)

Long: 99.229

Spaceway 1 at 
Long: 102.892

DirecTV 10 at

Long 102. 698

The TLEs came from the celestrack.com/NORAD/elements/ 
this morning

BTW, before someone notices the "UFO" just above the satellites, it is not on the original, but is a bit of dirt on my scanner window when I scanned the image into Photoshop to put the labels on.

This is my first try at this so I am open to all questions about if it is right!

Edit: I suppose I could say the view is the same view my DirecTV dish sees.


----------



## FHSPSU67

Ken984 said:


> Exactly, its right just not the way we are used to thinking about it, we think about it looking down from the equator towards North America...or at least I do. So 110 is to the left of 101 when I picture it in my mind. If I think of it as looking up at the sky from North America it makes sense too.


I look at it the same way my dish looks at it


----------



## Ken984

Thats pretty cool to have your scope move automatically. Can you actually see the sats with it? I mean can you see if the panels are deployed ;-)


----------



## jrodfoo

can't we just get Endeavour to go snap a picture for us while it's still up there to see how D10 is doing?  of course they are not that high up though I don't think .. haha..

one can wish...


----------



## PWenger

A quick novice-to-the-business-end question, is the FCC likely to grant this request? Is it a formality, or is this something that requires a close look?


----------



## jrodfoo

PWenger said:


> A quick novice-to-the-business-end question, is the FCC likely to grant this request? Is it a formality, or is this something that requires a close look?


good question.. I think that's why they had sent the letter now..to get all the neccessary paperwork, ect finished.. maybe someone can chime in....


----------



## syphix

Ken984 said:


> I mean can you see if the panels are deployed ;-)


According to the FCC filing...


> DIRECTV 10 is now undergoing in-orbit testing...


Does this "testing" require the panels to be deployed??

My guess is that the filing will easily be approved (seeing that DirecTV isn't doing anything they wouldn't already be doing later, just pushing up their timetable).


----------



## PoitNarf

syphix said:


> According to the FCC filing...
> 
> Does this "testing" require the panels to be deployed??


I would have to say yes. They don't want to be using their batteries to power the transponders during the testing.



syphix said:


> My guess is that the filing will easily be approved (seeing that DirecTV isn't doing anything they wouldn't already be doing later, just pushing up their timetable).


I agree. I'm guessing they'll just rubber stamp this thing.


----------



## mike_augie

I wonder if there will be another letter that "we" will see ..as far as if this is appoved or not and how long it might take them to do this?? any thoughts


----------



## bobnielsen

Special Temporary Authorizations are routinely granted fairly quickly, compared to a license change.


----------



## Smthkd

> DIRECTV 10 is now undergoing in-orbit testing at the 102.6° W.L.​orbital location


I really like this part in the FCC filing because its proof that they are testing the sat while its drifting to its final location! This is a "VERY" good thing as it speeds up the process and also shows that D* is just as eager to get this thing lit up just as we are!!!


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> Thats pretty cool to have your scope move automatically. Can you actually see the sats with it? I mean can you see if the panels are deployed ;-)


 I just discovered this morning that this software can do that! I am already been thinking about taking a look as it is fairly easy to hit the exact spot where D10 should be, however I expect, at best, all I could see would be a dim spot of reflected sunlight. Air turbulence ( heat waves you can see on a parking lot) prevent very sharp resolution especially in the summer.

Unfortunately I need to do some wiring work to get the scope connected to the laptop computer to do it, and daytime "to dos" are preempting my staying up all night too!

I don't have my light measuring CCD set up now, but a comparison of the light brightness from Spaceway 1 vs. D10 should verify the solar wings are out. I can measure star brightness to 0.01 magnitude and use it to occasionally watch the brightness change in nova explosions when they occasionally occur. I also can see the brightness of asteroids change as they rotate. D11 is coming so maybe I can get ready by then, but unfortunately we have a LOT Of clouds in the Pacific NW in winter.

And for any interested get a copy of Sky and Telescope magazine (Barnes & Noble usually has it )- good telescopes you can control with a laptop are priced about the same as a high end PC.


----------



## harsh

John4924 said:


> So the September 1 date may be in the cards as many of us have thought!


Mikey correctly noted that the September 1 date was for _commencement_ of the move as opposed to arrival at the modified destination. I don't think a September 1 turn-up was ever on the table. It should be noted that the FCC must approve this STA application amendment. The ammendment asserts that the original application for STA from a month earlier had not gone on public notice, but obviously, we knew about it and it was indexed in the eDocs system.

They must be doing some serious testing, or they wouldn't be contemplating the new location.


----------



## mike_augie

I wonder if leaving it where it is will give us good enough signal strength to have 80-90 on the transponders??? with out have to re tweek or get direct out to realine it...I know it is only a fraction..but I thought that from the past threads that I have seen that the 103 and 99 was very sinceitive in nature as far as alinments go???


----------



## Interceptor

Just got another set. Going to see if much has changed.


DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07229.43132383 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 574
2 31862 000.1289 286.5045 0000367 093.3512 358.1781 01.00275813 438

Looks like it tightened up the eccentricity of the orbit, and the perigee/apogee is within 3 km now.


----------



## ScoBuck

harsh said:


> Mikey correctly noted that the September 1 date was for _commencement_ of the move as opposed to arrival at the modified destination. I don't think a September 1 turn-up was ever on the table. It should be noted that the FCC must approve this STA application amendment. The ammendment asserts that the original application for STA from a month earlier had not gone on public notice, but obviously, we knew about it and it was indexed in the eDocs system.
> 
> They must be doing some serious testing, or they wouldn't be contemplating the new location.


The 'drift' to its permanent orbit takes 3 days. To me that means it should be greeting us on the 4th or 5th.

Wow - wouldn't that mean *LESS THAN 2 MONTHS *from launch to operation? *Not the 5-6* you preached for so many months.


----------



## say-what

The sooner the better.....Can't wait!


----------



## uncrules

ScoBuck said:


> Wow - wouldn't that mean *LESS THAN 2 MONTHS *from launch to operation? *Not the 5-6* you preached for so many months.


Yes, I was thinking the same thing. He did seem so sure of it didn't he?


----------



## swans

ScoBuck said:


> To me that means it should be greeting us on the 4th or 5th.


Any idea of the skinny on the rollout of services? I would be particularly interested in the locals for Mobile/Pensacola. Thanks.


----------



## VeniceDre

I've been saying Labor Day Weekend since the launch...


----------



## bakers12

I don't have access to Orbitron from work. If anybody can, please use the new TLE and see what the perigee/apogee is and the orbital period (should be around 1436.1 minutes).

Thanks.


----------



## purtman

What's awesome is that Sept. 1 is two weeks from tomorrow.


----------



## ScoBuck

uncrules said:


> Yes, I was thinking the same thing. He did seem so sure of it didn't he?


Couple of Hundred posts worth of sure he was - he was.


----------



## Smthkd

bakers12 said:


> I don't have access to Orbitron from work. If anybody can, please use the new TLE and see what the perigee/apogee is and the orbital period (should be around 1436.1 minutes).
> 
> Thanks.


Here's the update:

DIRECTV10
Lon 102.6494 W
Lat 0.0202° S
Alt (km) 35 785.080
Eccen: 0.0000367
Azm 210.7°
Elv 46.2°
RA 07h 31m 59s
Decl -5° 21' 11"
Range (km) 37 327.020
RRt (km/s) -0.001
Vel (km/s) 3.075
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 95.9° (68)
TA 96.0°
Orbit # 44
Mag (illum) ? (8%)
Constellation Oph


----------



## oakwcj

bakers12 said:


> I don't have access to Orbitron from work. If anybody can, please use the new TLE and see what the perigee/apogee is and the orbital period (should be around 1436.1 minutes).
> 
> Thanks.


Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	08-17-2007 10:21:06
Orbit # at Epoch	43
Inclination	0.129
RA of A. Node	286.505
Eccentricity	0.0000367
Argument of Perigee	93.351
Revs per day	1.00275813
Period	23h 56m 02s (1436.3 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 784 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	358.178
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	57 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary

The orbital period is 12 seconds longer than your guess.


----------



## Ken984

Great with the update, perigee v apogee is down to 3km...everything seems to be going great at this point.


----------



## Ed Campbell

man_rob said:


> This has been rumored for a while. It's nice to see some concrete evidence of the Labor Day Weekend start of D*'s HD. They should change their logo to HDirecTV.


Speaking as someone who's sold everything from skateboards to blue sky, that's about the neatest suggestion I've seen in years. Rock on!


----------



## man_rob

Ed Campbell said:


> Speaking as someone who's sold everything from skateboards to blue sky, that's about the neatest suggestion I've seen in years. Rock on!


Thanks.


----------



## dwrats_56

Mikey said:


> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


Great Find. My post #542 on the 9th shows that the FCC granted STA on July 31. I just couldn't find the details on the authority they granted.


----------



## dragonbait

harsh said:


> The ammendment asserts that the original application for STA from a month earlier had not gone on public notice, but obviously, we knew about it and it was indexed in the eDocs system.


That assertion is not about the STA (Special *Temporary* Authority) for IOT at 102.6 and eventual move to 102.8.

The assertion refers to footnote 2 which is an application to modify *permanently* the license for the final operational location of D10 from 102.80 to 102.775. This STA is asking to let D10 go to 102.775 instead of 102.80 since an application is pending to make the final home 102.775.


----------



## Smthkd

Thats what I thought but I didn't say anything until someone else did!!


----------



## bakers12

oakwcj said:


> The orbital period is 12 seconds longer than your guess.


Thanks for providing the update so quick. The orbital period is even closer than yesterday, so its drift to the West is almost non-existant. Eccentricity and inclination are along the lines of other geostationary sats now. I know very little about rocket science, so I've been looking at GSOs in www.n2yo.com for comparison.


----------



## Alan Gordon

purtman said:


> I don't recall DirecTV11 ever being Spring. D10? Yes, but D11? I thought when D* (not the rumors) came out, it said spring and second quarter, both which could mean anywhere from April through June. D* isn't as far off as many like to make it out to be.


D10 was mentioned as being 1Q in several spots, D11 was mentioned as being 2Q, and it was occasionally mentioned as being set to launch in April.

However, with anything such as satellite building/launching, dates and timeframes should ALWAYS be considered tentative... and D10 hasn't had the problems DirecTV-7s did in getting launched...

Either way, D10 (which is the one we've all been waiting for) has been launched, and is about to give us some more HD!! 

~Alan


----------



## mx6bfast

Ed Campbell said:


> Speaking as someone who's sold everything from skateboards to blue sky, that's about the neatest suggestion I've seen in years. Rock on!


Hopefully they wont need to make those colors liter.


----------



## MattG

mike_augie said:


> I wonder if leaving it where it is will give us good enough signal strength to have 80-90 on the transponders??? with out have to re tweek or get direct out to realine it...I know it is only a fraction..but I thought that from the past threads that I have seen that the 103 and 99 was very sinceitive in nature as far as alinments go???


If I remember right the slimline dish has about an 18" boom on it which makes for about a 56.5" arc across 180 degrees. The difference between the planned and proposed parking spot is .025 degrees. If my math is right then this works out to moving the lnb over 0.008 inches or 1/128th of an inch.

((18*PI)*(0.025/180)

Conversely this means the satellite will be about 1.5km away from the original planned parking spot.


----------



## n2deep2bn

MattG said:


> If I remember right the slimline dish has about an 18" boom on it which makes for about a 56.5" arc across 180 degrees. The difference between the planned and proposed parking spot is .025 degrees. If my math is right then this works out to moving the lnb over 0.008 inches or 1/128th of an inch.
> 
> ((18*PI)/180)*0.025


I think I will be moving my dish this weekend.


----------



## M3 Pete

Smthkd said:


> I really like this part in the FCC filing because its proof that they are testing the sat while its drifting to its final location! This is a "VERY" good thing as it speeds up the process and also *shows that D* is just as eager to get this thing lit up just as we are*!!!


of course they are. D* has invested a bajillion dollars in this bird, and the only way to make it pay off is to get it lit up and start advertising the new channels. Glad I got my HR20 two weeks ago! :biggthump


----------



## M3 Pete

MattG said:


> If I remember right the slimline dish has about an 18" boom on it which makes for about a 56.5" arc across 180 degrees. The difference between the planned and proposed parking spot is .025 degrees. If my math is right then this works out to moving the lnb over 0.008 inches or 1/128th of an inch.
> 
> ((18*PI)*(0.025/180)


If all the dishes need to be realigned, I should go into the signal meter rental business for all you DIYers.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Just don't move it such that you mess with S2 and the upcoming D11 placement. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## houskamp

M3 Pete said:


> If all the dishes need to be realigned, I should go into the signal meter rental business for all you DIYers.


The ol' slingbox and laptop work great


----------



## PoitNarf

MattG said:


> If I remember right the slimline dish has about an 18" boom on it which makes for about a 56.5" arc across 180 degrees. The difference between the planned and proposed parking spot is .025 degrees. If my math is right then this works out to moving the lnb over 0.008 inches or 1/128th of an inch.


Everyone break out their metal files!!! :lol:


----------



## jrodfoo

does everyone really think we'll have to move our dishes? interesting information with what MattG said... that's interesting if we do... I'm sure there will be a turorial up here before D10 is lit up haha


----------



## HarleyD

MattG said:


> If I remember right the slimline dish has about an 18" boom on it which makes for about a 56.5" arc across 180 degrees. The difference between the planned and proposed parking spot is .025 degrees. If my math is right then this works out to moving the lnb over 0.008 inches or 1/128th of an inch.
> 
> ((18*PI)*(0.025/180)
> 
> Conversely this means the satellite will be about 1.5km away from the original planned parking spot.


Heck, just tightening the nuts on the mast can cause it to move that far.

I'd say we're all probably cool with .025 degrees. Somehow I suspect .008" is within tolerance.


----------



## Smthkd

NO, you wont have to move your dish! 102.775 is actually .025 towards the center of your dish. So if anything the signal will become stronger rather than weaker in its current position!


----------



## PoitNarf

jrodfoo said:


> does everyone really think we'll have to move our dishes?


No, if we do end up having to move or tweak anything it will be because the sat gets parked in the wrong spot. If you can get signal from all the sats and get all your channels right now you will be fine once D10 starts broadcasting. (Assuming you have a 5LNB dish of course)


----------



## jrodfoo

Smthkd said:


> NO, you wont have to move your dish! 102.775 is actually .025 towards the center of your dish. So if anything the signal will become stronger rather than weaker in its current position!


yeah I figured as much, that would be a nightmare for installers and scheduling... :lol:


----------



## jrodfoo

PoitNarf said:


> No, if we do end up having to move or tweak anything it will be because the sat gets parked in the wrong spot. If you can get signal from all the sats and get all your channels right now you will be fine once D10 starts broadcasting. (Assuming you have a 5LNB dish of course)


yep 5LNB here. Thanks 

i think i need to go on vacation to pass the next 2 weeks.


----------



## Tom_S

Smthkd said:


> NO, you wont have to move your dish! 102.775 is actually .025 towards the center of your dish. So if anything the signal will become stronger rather than weaker in its current position!


Well, not exactly. There are focus points on the dish that go from each orbital slot to the LNB. Any deviation may help or harm depending on how good your dish is aimed. If it was aimed to far one way and the sat is moved a little in the same direction it will get a better signal, if the sat is moved the opposite direction you will get a weaker signal.

But, that being said .025 degrees will not effect you signal. Heck there were always going to be 2 sats at 99 and 103 anyway and they were to be separated more than .025 degrees. DO NOT re aim your dish. If it's good now it will be good next month.


----------



## harsh

MattG said:


> Conversely this means the satellite will be about 1.5km away from the original planned parking spot.


6378km (Earth radius at equator) + 35784km (orbit altitude above equator) = 42162km orbital radius

42162km * sin(.025) = 18.4km away


----------



## harsh

Tom_S said:


> Any deviation may help or harm depending on how good your dish is aimed.


Not to mention that for some portion of the population, they might compromise their aim at Spaceway 2 where their locals are coming from.


----------



## houskamp

Anyone think this thread will hit 250,000 views before the sat goes live? 
Time for a poll :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

FWIW, I haven't been able to figure out why my two Mac tracking apps (both from the same source) don't agree with the web apps and the various PC apps. However, I will note that today's TLEs' plugged into my programs show a parking orbit at 106.78 W (rounding up from 106.775 perhaps?)

I will send an email to the author and solicit his comments.



> Not to mention that for some portion of the population, they might compromise their aim at Spaceway 2 where their locals are coming from.


Different frequencies involved (Ka-lo versus Ka-hi for the Spaceway sats). If you're getting good signals on one, you'll be fine with the other - the 5 LNB dishes receive from 99, 101, 103, 110 and 119.


----------



## Steve Robertson

houskamp said:


> Anyone think this thread will hit 250,000 views before the sat goes live?


I don't think so ,maybe 175,000


----------



## Smthkd

> NO, you wont have to move your dish! 102.775 is actually .025 towards the center of your dish. So if anything the signal will become stronger rather than weaker in its current position!





Tom_S said:


> *Well, not exactly*. There are focus points on the dish that go from each orbital slot to the LNB. Any deviation may help or harm depending on how good your dish is aimed. If it was aimed to far one way and the sat is moved a little in the same direction it will get a better signal, if the sat is moved the opposite direction you will get a weaker signal.
> 
> *But, that being said .025 degrees will not effect you signal*. Heck there were always going to be 2 sats at 99 and 103 anyway and they were to be separated more than .025 degrees. DO NOT re aim your dish. If it's good now it will be good next month.


Did I miss something here!


----------



## khoyme

HarleyD said:


> Heck, just tightening the nuts on the mast can cause it to move that far.


You tightened them? Dang - I missed a step!:eek2:


----------



## Mikey

Smthkd said:


> Did I miss something here!


Did you read the FCC filing dated 8/16/2007? There's a link in post #1.


----------



## Smthkd

Mikey said:


> Did you read the FCC filing dated 8/16/2007? There's a link in post #1.


No Im talking about the previous post I made and they're reply! I have kept up with the thread since the beginning!


----------



## MattG

jrodfoo said:


> does everyone really think we'll have to move our dishes? interesting information with what MattG said... that's interesting if we do... I'm sure there will be a turorial up here before D10 is lit up haha


No, we definitely don't have to move our dishes.  If you could actually move the 103 LNB over 1/128th of an inch then I seriously doubt you'll see any difference in signal strength. I don't think you'll see any changes in signal strength until you get past 1/2"of movement based on my personal dish alignment experiences.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> FWIW, I haven't been able to figure out why my two Mac tracking apps (both from the same source) don't agree with the web apps and the various PC apps. However, I will note that today's TLEs' plugged into my programs show a parking orbit at 106.78 W (rounding up from 106.775 perhaps?)
> 
> I will send an email to the author and solicit his comments.
> 
> Different frequencies involved (Ka-lo versus Ka-hi for the Spaceway sats). If you're getting good signals on one, you'll be fine with the other - the 5 LNB dishes receive from 99, 101, 103, 110 and 119.


Did you mean 102.678 W? 106.xxx is a big change.


----------



## MattG

harsh said:


> 6378km (Earth radius at equator) + 35784km (orbit altitude above equator) = 42162km orbital radius
> 
> 42162km * sin(.025) = 18.4km away


Yep, that's right. I fat-fingered my calculator and I also forgot to add the earth's radius.


----------



## syphix

Steve Robertson said:


> I don't think so ,maybe 175,000


And that's not really even that fair...since it's REALLY just 6-7 of us hitting F5 over and over again.


----------



## bonscott87

Assuming the move on Sept 1st and parked in orbit on the 4th I would *NOT* count on channels going up that week on the 5th. I would expect an official channel launch on Tuesday the 11th with the channels starting to appear during the week of the 5th while they tune them in (and I can see the posts of "these stations look like crap!" while they tune it in).

Most channel launches are on Tuesdays and as we've seen in the past year, espeically with locals, they are typically uplinked and live a few days before to get them tuned in, then do the official press release on Tuesday.

Anyway, just trying to temper everyone's expectations.


----------



## LameLefty

donshan said:


> Did you mean 102.678 W? 106.xxx is a big change.


D'oh! Typo. Yes, MacDoppler and MacDopplerLite are both showing 102.78 W. I've emailed the author and told him if he can explain the discrepancy between his app and the various PC-based programs I'll upgrade. That's a $98 sale. Maybe that will spur a response. :lol:

Oh, great work on the plots from "The Sky". I used to use that YEARS ago (like literally about 15 years ago) on my old Win3.1 386DX/33 with 4 megs of RAM.  You bought it in "levels" - I, II or III depending on the size of the database. I bought Level III and it came on like a dozen floppy disks. I used it for years until I got Starry Night, which I like a great deal. I currently use SN Pro 5 and see no need to upgrade, since it's already a universal binary for my Intel Mac. I have a 10" Dob that I like playing with but the light pollution here is terrible. Combined with the heat and haze a good deal of the year, summer viewing is limited to planets and bright Messiers mostly.


----------



## loudo




----------



## sat2631




----------



## VeniceDre

bonscott87 said:


> Assuming the move on Sept 1st and parked in orbit on the 4th I would *NOT* count on channels going up that week on the 5th. I would expect an official channel launch on Tuesday the 11th with the channels starting to appear during the week of the 5th while they tune them in (and I can see the posts of "these stations look like crap!" while they tune it in).
> 
> Most channel launches are on Tuesdays and as we've seen in the past year, espeically with locals, they are typically uplinked and live a few days before to get them tuned in, then do the official press release on Tuesday.
> 
> Anyway, just trying to temper everyone's expectations.


I agree on the "trickle effect." We might start seeing some channels pop up, then over the course of a week fill in... I hope they get them all up one shot. I would be pleasantly surprised... Remember also, some of the new channels for September might be a little late and start filling in the line-up toward the end of the month.


----------



## morgantown

bonscott87 said:


> Assuming the move on Sept 1st and parked in orbit on the 4th I would *NOT* count on channels going up that week on the 5th. I would expect an official channel launch on Tuesday the 11th with the channels starting to appear during the week of the 5th while they tune them in (and I can see the posts of "these stations look like crap!" while they tune it in).
> 
> Most channel launches are on Tuesdays and as we've seen in the past year, espeically with locals, they are typically uplinked and live a few days before to get them tuned in, then do the official press release on Tuesday.
> 
> Anyway, just trying to temper everyone's expectations.


I'm holding my breath for a Labor Day HD launch no matter what any of you say...:eek2:


----------



## Sixto

103,000 views ... cool ... T minus 2 weeks ...


----------



## houskamp

so what's the highest number of veiws for a thread?


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

houskamp said:


> so what's the highest number of veiws for a thread?


If I had to guess I would say it is the "what are the best deals" thread.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62089&highlight=what+are+the+best+deals


----------



## Sixto

BMoreRavens said:


> If I had to guess I would say it is the "what are the best deals" thread.


Wow, we have a long way to go ...

Only need about 12,000 views per day for the next 2 weeks


----------



## Smthkd

New TLE:
1 31862U 07032A 07228.47929369 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 567
2 31862 0.1312 286.3725 0000549 62.5402 45.4343 1.00271756 427


----------



## houskamp

1/2 way there and that one is a year old :lol:


----------



## Smthkd

New TLE update:

DIRECTV10
Lon 102.6817 W
Lat 0.0821° S
Alt (km) 35 787.060
Eccen: 0.0000549
Azm 210.7°
Elv 46.1°
RA 15h 31m 13s
Decl -5° 29' 34"
Range (km) 37 334.188
RRt (km/s) -0.001
Vel (km/s) 3.075
Direction Ascending
Eclipse No
MA (phase) 246.7° (175)
TA 246.0°
Orbit # 44
Mag (illum) ? (29%)
Constellation Oph


----------



## Ken984

That tle is from yesterday the newest tle is this one.

1 31862U 07032A 07229.43132383 -.00000104 00000-0 10000-3 0 574
2 31862 000.1289 286.5045 0000367 093.3512 358.1781 01.00275813 438


----------



## Ken984

Current position.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.6522° W
Lat	0.0800° S
Alt (km)	35 786.210
Azm	196.2°
Elv	51.0°
RA	15h 41m 47s
Decl	-5° 21' 19"
Range (km)	37 014.123
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	216.9° (154)
TA	216.9°
Orbit #	44
Mag (illum)	? (50%)
Constellation	Lib


----------



## Smthkd

Funny, I just got that off Celetrax!

edit: Nevermind I see what I did wrong! Thxs


----------



## BARRYK

I'm seeing a signal strength of 38 on Transponder 3 on 103. Does that mean they've lit D10 up?


----------



## RAD

BARRYK said:


> I'm seeing a signal strength of 38 on Transponder 3 on 103. Does that mean they've lit D10 up?


Nope, I've had readings on 103 TP1 -> TP6 for months.


----------



## Tom Robertson

The first sign we will actually see on a receiver is some (or all?) the N/A's disappear on satellite location 103°. All the current transponders are spotbeams somewhere.

Cheers,
Tom

Edit: Unless someone actually sees a picture on channel 499 that shows the BBC is working.


----------



## donshan

Tom Robertson said:


> The first sign we will actually see on a receiver is some (or all?) the N/A's disappear on satellite location 103°. All the current transponders are spotbeams somewhere.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom
> 
> Edit: Unless someone actually sees a picture on channel 499 that shows the BBC is working.


I tried a search on this but pulled up too many false hits so let me ask if this has been discussed before:

The (a) after 103(a) and the (b) after 99(b) in "Signal strength" intrigue me.

Is it possible that the first D10 live sign on transponders will be a new satellite screen labeled "103(b)" with a new set of transponder numbers and signal strength values?

The 103(a) will continue to be Spaceway 1 and the N/As will change to numbers as more cities get LIL HD?


----------



## morgantown

donshan said:


> I tried a search on this but pulled up too many false hits so let me ask if this has been discussed before:
> 
> The (a) after 103(a) and the (b) after 99(b) in "Signal strength" intrigue me.
> 
> Is it possible that the first D10 live sign on transponders will be a new satellite screen labeled "103(b)" with a new set of transponder numbers and signal strength values?
> 
> The 103(a) will continue to be Spaceway 1 and the N/As will change to numbers as more cities get LIL HD?


Do not know, but my assumption is an affirmative as to your first question. But, these satellites are so flexible they really should be able to do whatever they want... Tom would have a much better informed decision as to the capabilities.

Clearly they did not implement (a) and (b) screens just for the fun of it. Given they are on different frequencies it would only make sense to have differing screens to show values (i.e. 103a remains the current sat and 103b would be D10).


----------



## bobnielsen

Also the "netxx" designations on the H20.


----------



## Interceptor

bobnielsen said:


> Also the "netxx" designations on the H20.


Actually, I haven't noticed the "netxx" designations on the H20 any more since the 202x updates.


----------



## bobnielsen

Interceptor said:


> Actually, I haven't noticed the "netxx" designations on the H20 any more since the 202x updates.


OK--I don't have a H20 any longer but wondered why the HR20 was different.


----------



## EaglePC

bobnielsen said:


> OK--I don't have a H20 any longer but wondered why the HR20 was different.


yes I sponged 299.00 HR20 what a difference my tv never looked better somehow I really think it improved my picture quality,and everything works best then those H20 glad I made the move...

ARE WE MORE HD SOON
ARE WE THERE YET ?


----------



## Newshawk

bonscott87 said:


> Most channel launches are on Tuesdays and as we've seen in the past year, espeically with locals, they are typically uplinked and live a few days before to get them tuned in, then do the official press release on Tuesday.


Actually, bonscott, if you look at the HD LiL by Launch Date list I've done, you'll see that the overwhelming majority of HD LiL launches have been on _Wednesday_, not Tuesday. In fact, I believe all the 2006 and 2007 launches have been on Wednesday.

Thus, I'm predicting the HD channels will go live on September 5th or 12th.


----------



## kaysersoze

Newshawk said:


> Actually, bonscott, if you look at the HD LiL by Launch Date list I've done, you'll see that the overwhelming majority of HD LiL launches have been on _Wednesday_, not Tuesday. In fact, I believe all the 2006 and 2007 launches have been on Wednesday.
> 
> Thus, I'm predicting the HD channels will go live on September 5th or 12th.


Wow, I would say you have earned you name on that one. Very Nice


----------



## rock819

Was wondering since the sat is parked in the 102.6 area. Is it normal for the latitude to drift one way or the other as much as it does? Forgive my ignorance in this area please.


----------



## LameLefty

rock819 said:


> Was wondering since the sat is parked in the 102.6 area. Is it normal for the latitude to drift one way or the other as much as it does? Forgive my ignorance in this area please.


The spacecraft has not been drifting randomly - it's been in very high-altitude, low-eccentricity orbits that are not quite circular. That results in the satellite seeming to oscillate east or west as viewed against a non-moving map or globe. In reality, the satellite is and has been revolving around the earth's center of mass while the earth's surface rotates beneath it the whole time. Now that it has finally reached a true GSO orbit, it will not move much at all from day to day, and will require only the tiniest of corrections periodically to maintain it's "slot" at around 102.6 W (bearing in mind that these are rounded off the decimal place - a tenth of a degree is approximately 45 miles at that altitude! But anyway, it will stay around 102.6 W until it's time to move to the final slot at 102.8 (or 102.775 if the change is approved), and that drift will take a couple days. We'll know when it starts when NORAD issues new orbital elements, indicating the orbit has changed.


----------



## purtman

LameLefty said:


> But anyway, it will stay around 102.6 W until it's time to move to the final slot at 102.8 (or 102.775 if the change is approved), and that drift will take a couple days. We'll know when it starts when NORAD issues new orbital elements, indicating the orbit has changed.


Change was approved. There was a prior posting on that.


----------



## rock819

Thanks for the quick response lamelefty it seems like i learn a little with each post i read so i know you said it doesnt drift east or west again forgive my ignorance but what about north and south that is what i was talking about.


----------



## John4924

purtman said:


> Change was approved. There was a prior posting on that.


I remember a REQUEST for the change, but do not remember the change being approved by the FCC? Can you indicate which post number that was? 

Also, on a slightly different subject, when I do a "re-install" of my satellite settings, I get a failure on Sat 99?  Is this normal? And, will a 103b appear at sometime, or will we be required to "re-install" the satellites?

Cheers,
John


----------



## khoyme

John4924 said:


> Also, on a slightly different subject, when I do a "re-install" of my satellite settings, I get a failure on Sat 99?  Is this normal? And, will a 103b appear at sometime, or will we be required to "re-install" the satellites?


Sat 99 currently only has spot beams for HD locals. Your locals will be on either 99 or 103, and the other will not show signal. Once D10 is live, everyone will get signal at 103. Once D11 slides up next to the Spaceway at 99, we will all get signal from that point as well.

Have the opposite problem up here in MN - HD locals on 99, nothing on 103 for a couple more weeks.

Edit: From the fine list over here it confirms your HD locals are on 103. You will have no signal on 99 until D11 lights up in early 2008.

Ken


----------



## LameLefty

rock819 said:


> again forgive my ignorance but what about north and south that is what i was talking about.


Movement north and south of the equator is caused by an orbit's inclination - the angle between the plane of the orbit (HS geometry sometimes IS useful after all  ) and the equator. As the spacecraft moves along the path of its orbit, it will change position relative to the equator, north or south depending on where it is in its orbit. Ideally, a GSO has a zero inclination and a period that exactly matches the length of a day - in practice there are always errors and things that perturb or nudge the satellite slightly, including such things as solar pressure - the momentum caused by photons and charged particles from the solar wind impacting the spacecraft surface. Those giant solar wings have enough surface area to make a measurable difference. So too does the gravity of the moon and the sun. Every so often the spacecraft will make tiny corrections to the orbit, at which time NORAD will notice it with its tracking radars and telescopes and update the published TLEs.


----------



## purtman

> Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
> A new filing with the FCC says that Direct is ahead of schedule, and wants to start moving D10 to it's target location around September 1st instead of September 12th.
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib....nt_key=-134304





dwrats_56 said:


> Great Find. My post #542 on the 9th shows that the FCC granted STA on July 31. I just couldn't find the details on the authority they granted.


John4924, here are the posts that correspond to this being approved.


----------



## purtman

Did the Dog Whisperer get ahold of Harsh? He's been very, very quiet. I guess the beagle has been tamed.


----------



## EaglePC

103 i get 7 transponders 98-57-88-96-66-3-45-all others 0-0- so forth

must be locals


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> I tried a search on this but pulled up too many false hits so let me ask if this has been discussed before:
> 
> The (a) after 103(a) and the (b) after 99(b) in "Signal strength" intrigue me.
> 
> Is it possible that the first D10 live sign on transponders will be a new satellite screen labeled "103(b)" with a new set of transponder numbers and signal strength values?
> 
> The 103(a) will continue to be Spaceway 1 and the N/As will change to numbers as more cities get LIL HD?





morgantown said:


> Do not know, but my assumption is an affirmative as to your first question. But, these satellites are so flexible they really should be able to do whatever they want... Tom would have a much better informed decision as to the capabilities.
> 
> Clearly they did not implement (a) and (b) screens just for the fun of it. Given they are on different frequencies it would only make sense to have differing screens to show values (i.e. 103a remains the current sat and 103b would be D10).


My guess is the new satellites will fill up the N/As we're seeing today in the existing transponder charts.

I have tried to find out the meaning of "a" and "b", so far no luck.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## donshan

khoyme said:


> Sat 99 currently only has spot beams for HD locals. Your locals will be on either 99 or 103, and the other will not show signal. Once D10 is live, everyone will get signal at 103. Once D11 slides up next to the Spaceway at 99, we will all get signal from that point as well.
> 
> Have the opposite problem up here in MN - HD locals on 99, nothing on 103 for a couple more weeks.
> 
> Edit: From the fine list over here it confirms your HD locals are on 103. You will have no signal on 99 until D11 lights up in early 2008.
> 
> Ken


It may be possible to get readings on 99(b) before local HD service is active.

I am getting strong readings on 99(b), but do NOT yet receive any HD locals here yet. My DMA (125) is not scheduled to get them until D11 goes live.

My transponders 1-8 on 99(b) read:
0 97 0 97 0 0 N/A N/A

My guess is that my dish is picking up the Seattle HD Locals that are listed in your link as on 99, but since I live in SE Washington in DMA 125 I am not eligible to receive them so they are switched off. My SD locals are on 119.

I get all zeros (plus the N/As) on 103(a) but some DMAs might get a reading like I do on 99(b)if they are within the beam area but not eligible for the stations in that beam. Or is it possible I am due for a surprise and get all our HD locals early ( we have five OTA) ?


----------



## paule123

FWIW, here in Cleveland, I'm getting the following on my HR20 (with BBCs installed):

7 total at 103a: 
1-8: 95 0 94 67 95 59 NA NA
17: 0 NA ...

6 total at 99b:
1-8: 14 69 59 79 69 0 NA NA


----------



## Alan Gordon

donshan said:


> It may be possible to get readings on 99(b) before local HD service is active.
> 
> I am getting strong readings on 99(b), but do NOT yet receive any HD locals here yet. My DMA (125) is not scheduled to get them until D11 goes live.


Yes, I get readings on 102 for every transponder (that is not NA) but one (channel 499 transponder), and I still don't have SD locals from DirecTV.

I get no signals whatsoever from 99.

~Alan


----------



## MLock

purtman said:


> Did the Dog Whisperer get ahold of Harsh? He's been very, very quiet. I guess the beagle has been tamed.


PSSHHHT!


----------



## Dolly

khoyme said:


> Sat 99 currently only has spot beams for HD locals. Your locals will be on either 99 or 103, and the other will not show signal. Once D10 is live, everyone will get signal at 103. Once D11 slides up next to the Spaceway at 99, we will all get signal from that point as well.
> 
> Have the opposite problem up here in MN - HD locals on 99, nothing on 103 for a couple more weeks.
> 
> Edit: From the fine list over here it confirms your HD locals are on 103. You will have no signal on 99 until D11 lights up in early 2008.
> 
> Ken


Ken what does the numbers under DMA mean on the chart?
I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that, but remember I'm the dumb one in the group :blush:


----------



## RandybinSC

Being out of the loop for so long I need some help understanding what my signal strength screens mean. Currently I have 101, 110, 119, 99a and 103a. Where can I find out what channels I am receiving from these locations? Also the 99a location reception is usually between 76-80. Any ideas why this is so low, besides possibly the dish needing to be adjusted.

Thanks


----------



## Interceptor

RandybinSC said:


> Currently I have 101, 110, 119, 99a and 103a. Where can I find out what channels I am receiving from these locations? Also the 99a location reception is usually between 76-80. Any ideas why this is so low, besides possibly the dish needing to be adjusted.


101 contains most SD channels on D*, including SD locals
110 contains HBO, Showtime, ESPN, Universal, TNT, NGC, & HDNet Movies, all in HD (MPEG-2)
119 contains ESPN2, Discovery-HD, and HDNet, all in HD (MPEG-2) plus a bunch of SD locals

99 & 103 mostly contain the locals in HD (MPEG-4). Looks like you might be seeing the spot beam for Sacramento on 99.

If some of this data is old, I expect someone here can straighten me out.


----------



## khoyme

Dolly said:


> Ken what does the numbers under DMA mean on the chart?
> I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that, but remember I'm the dumb one in the group :blush:


Well, my first thought was "Doctor of Musical Arts", but then my daughter was thinking about a music career, so I was more familiar with that use of the acronym. :grin:

A quick Google of "satellite DMA" comes up with "Designated Market Area" which sounds more reasonable. I suspect there are specific geographic areas that have been defined around certain large markets - if you are in that "DMA" you are eligible to get the HD locals for that area.

Ken


----------



## FHSPSU67

Dolly said:


> Ken what does the numbers under DMA mean on the chart?
> I'm sure everyone else in this thread knows that, but remember I'm the dumb one in the group :blush:


Not Ken but those numbers refer to the Designated Marketing Areas compiled by Nielsen Media and used to rank different areas as to # of customers.
http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/port...toid=130547f8b5264010VgnVCM100000880a260aRCRD


----------



## khoyme

purtman said:


> John4924, here are the posts that correspond to this being approved.


But how would the FCC be able to approve an STA on July 31 that was only submitted on August 17th? That would be more than lightening fast! :lol:

D* filed a new STA this week for operation at 102.775 starting around September 1. Since the last STA took about a week to be approved, one would expect to see approval of this sometime this coming week, well in time for them to start the drift on 9/1. (Which is my anniversary and the day we become empty nesters -- much to celebrate!  )

Ken


----------



## texasmoose

http://picasaweb.google.com/texasmoose63/SatFunnyDilbert/photo#5100161096145743266


----------



## texasmoose

click the URL in the previous post............

I thought this forum would get a kick out of this dilbert cartoon!:lol:


----------



## purtman

khoyme said:


> But how would the FCC be able to approve an STA on July 31 that was only submitted on August 17th? That would be more than lightning fast! :lol:
> 
> D* filed a new STA this week for operation at 102.775 starting around September 1. Since the last STA took about a week to be approved, one would expect to see approval of this sometime this coming week, well in time for them to start the drift on 9/1. (Which is my anniversary and the day we become empty nesters -- much to celebrate!  )
> 
> Ken


Emptynesters? Time to get a bigger TV. You now have another possible home theater room.

You're also right about the time. I posted the wrong one. I saw it somewhere else. I thought it was on a different thread, but when I saw this one, I thought I must have been mistake about it being on a different thread and grabbed it. When I went back to this and looked at it, I knew it wasn't the correct one. If I get time later on, I'll have to look for it.


----------



## donshan

khoyme said:


> Well, my first thought was "Doctor of Musical Arts", but then my daughter was thinking about a music career, so I was more familiar with that use of the acronym. :grin:
> 
> A quick Google of "satellite DMA" comes up with "Designated Market Area" which sounds more reasonable. I suspect there are specific geographic areas that have been defined around certain large markets - if you are in that "DMA" you are eligible to get the HD locals for that area.
> 
> Ken


Correct! Nielsen started using DMA decades ago to for their TV program ratings system. The ranking is actually based on the number of TV households in each DMA geographic area. New York is DMA 1.

A neat map is at :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market

This is relevant as D* has to adjust their spot beams to send local channels to hit each of those DMA areas in the US. Thus explaining my amazement that D10 has 55 spot beams each hitting a specific DMA all at the same time, and that must require very good satellite stability and very careful alignment.

DMA has become a "standard" that the FCC uses and thus D* and E* also use to determine what channels can be shown in that area. Under federal law it is illegal for D* to send anything but the broadcast network affiliate stations from in each DMA back to that same DMA--- Thus the very expensive Local into Local (LIL) HD program involved in the Spaceways, D10 and D11. If you look at D*s HD local channel rollouts they are working their way down the DMA list. It makes sense, since they get more customers served with each HD transponder in the upper DMAs than the lower ones.

Congress also uses DMA designations in the Digital TV and Satellite legislation. For example the original 1996 Communications Act set up schedules for for stations to be on the air with their digital channel based on a schedule that had the top 10 DMAs first , then the Top 30, and then the Top 100, then the rest last.

Since I live in DMA 125 we always get served near the end on every aspect of digital TV and HDTV. We got our first network HDTV in 2005 and just got Fox network HDTV on our local station this past June, but were prohibited by law from ever receiving D*'s National HD feeds due to these monopoly rules. I expect we will be near the last to get our HD LIL off D11 too because D* has to get agreements and HD uplink equipment installed to each local station's HD feed -BIG JOB!.

Edit: Local TV station's ad rates and thus their income are based on audience size measured by Nielsen. If D* or E* were permitted to bring in the same National network Program into a DMA, it would reduce the local station's audience size and revenue. It is OK for D* to bring in the same network channel already broadcasting, but this requires an agreement. This does not apply to national cable channels since they do not have local FCC broadcast licenses and are not included in these rules. The National Association of Broadcasters have a very effective lobby in Congress.


----------



## Dolly

donshan said:


> Correct! Nielsen started using DMA decades ago to for their TV program ratings system. The ranking is actually based on the number of TV households in each DMA geographic area. New York is DMA 1.
> 
> A neat map is at :
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market
> 
> This is relevant as D* has to adjust their spot beams to send local channels to hit each of those DMA areas in the US. Thus explaining my amazement that D10 has 55 spot beams each hitting a specific DMA all at the same time, and that must require very good satellite stability and very careful alignment.
> 
> DMA has become a "standard" that the FCC uses and thus D* and E* also use to determine what channels can be shown in that area. Under federal law it is illegal for D* to send anything but the broadcast network affiliate stations from in each DMA back to that same DMA--- Thus the very expensive Local into Local (LIL) HD program involved in the Spaceways, D10 and D11. If you look at D*s HD local channel rollouts they are working their way down the DMA list. It makes sense, since they get more customers served with each HD transponder in the upper DMAs than the lower ones.
> 
> Congress also uses DMA designations in the Digital TV and Satellite legislation. For example the original 1996 Communications Act set up schedules for for stations to be on the air with their digital channel based on a schedule that had the top 10 DMAs first , then the Top 30, and then the Top 100, then the rest last.
> 
> Since I live in DMA 125 we always get served near the end on every aspect of digital TV and HDTV. We got our first network HDTV in 2005 and just got Fox network HDTV on our local station this past June, but were prohibited by law from ever receiving D*'s National HD feeds due to these monopoly rules. I expect we will be near the last to get our HD LIL off D11 too because D* has to get agreements and HD uplink equipment installed to each local station's HD feed -BIG JOB!.
> 
> Edit: Local TV station's ad rates and thus their income are based on audience size measured by Nielsen. If D* or E* were permitted to bring in the same National network Program into a DMA, it would reduce the local station's audience size and revenue. It is OK for D* to bring in the same network channel already broadcasting, but this requires an agreement. This does not apply to national cable channels since they do not have local FCC broadcast licenses and are not included in these rules. The National Association of Broadcasters have a very effective lobby in Congress.


Great post  Now lets see if dummy here understood it :blush: So the lower your DMA number is the faster you get things like HD for your area. I can't believe the number listed for my area--it seems too low. And it took us ages to get our locals from D. May be DMA wasn't followed for locals


----------



## wilmot3

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07231.22475646 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 583
2 31862 000.1245 286.7846 0000337 104.6941 273.9856 01.00275861 441

Looks good


----------



## FHSPSU67

texasmoose said:


> http://picasaweb.google.com/texasmoose63/SatFunnyDilbert/photo#5100161096145743266


Hilarious - maybe because I'm a huge Dilbert fan and have three of Scott Adams' books.:lol:


----------



## donshan

Dolly said:


> Great post  Now lets see if dummy here understood it :blush: So the lower your DMA number is the faster you get things like HD for your area. I can't believe the number listed for my area--it seems too low. And it took us ages to get our locals from D. May be DMA wasn't followed for locals


It took you ages? I am not sure I will get HD locals even in 2008 even if D11 is right on schedule based on past delays in getting the ground uplinks operational.

The current list of those who already have HD locals from D* is at :

http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_HDLIL_DMA.html

Almost all of the top 50 ( lowest DMA number, highest number of TV households) already are listed as getting HD service, but then the list thins out quickly. However D* probably also uses the number of customers they have in each DMA and especially which specific station they got agreements with. Note the specific stations listed and in some markets a big local station got left out.

And one glaring exception to the low number DMAs getting HD first is DMA number 122 in Santa Barbara, CA with a small number of TV households. However they are located just outside Los Angeles. Since DirecTV Headquaters is in LA in El Segundo, I am guessing that the D* top brass may live in DMA 122 or at least that small DMA has a lot of D* customers and employees. "Rank does have its privileges"!

Another exception are the fights going on between the local broadcast stations and the local Cable company and D* and E* over permissions. Some local stations want to get a big fee to give these services permission to put their stations in the cable/sat HD lineups. Since in the past the stations gave this permission for free because it increases their audience size objections have been raised. The stations argue that cable and the sat companies are charging a fee for locals, so they want part of that fee too for HD network programs, but that would raise prices to us for local HD coverage if we have to pay the local HD station part of the fees too.

When lawyers get in the act the only sure thing is they know how to delay things!

Edit: Dolly, it also helps to have a NFL football team!- note Green Bay, WI-- DMA number 69 got their HD locals 
11/21/2006 ahead of a lot of DMAs with more people, but probably everyone in Green Bay wants the Packers games in HD


----------



## leww37334

Dolly said:


> Great post  Now lets see if dummy here understood it :blush: So the lower your DMA number is the faster you get things like HD for your area. I can't believe the number listed for my area--it seems too low. And it took us ages to get our locals from D. May be DMA wasn't followed for locals


I also like this DMA map:

http://www.truckads.com/licensed_affiliates1.asp

I noted at least one difference in the two maps immediately, so I am not sure which is correct.


----------



## purtman

wilmot3 said:


> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07231.22475646 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 583
> 2 31862 000.1245 286.7846 0000337 104.6941 273.9856 01.00275861 441
> 
> Looks good


I've seen several of these postings before from people. However, to many of us, these are just raw numbers and nothing else. Can we have some type of explanation of what these numbers mean? Thanks!


----------



## oakwcj

purtman said:


> I've seen several of these postings before from people. However, to many of us, these are just raw numbers and nothing else. Can we have some type of explanation of what these numbers mean? Thanks!


This page has an explanation of the format. If you want to know what all these elements mean, you'll have to take an astronomy course or wait for someone with more expertise to answer.


----------



## purtman

oakwcj, thanks!


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> I've seen several of these postings before from people. However, to many of us, these are just raw numbers and nothing else. Can we have some type of explanation of what these numbers mean? Thanks!


TLEs were new to me too. I found this NASA web page helped understand them, but they are highly technical.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html

Edit: The experts here are especially watching changes in the Line 2 terms for inclination and eccentricity which indicate how close the satellite is rotating exactly over the equator in a perfect circle so that it moves around the earth exactly the same speed as the earth turns so it then stays "fixed" over a spot on earth. However, perfection is never attained exactly. ( IF, I now understand it after reading these posts!)


----------



## moonman

According to LyngSat...DirecTV 10 has "arrived"
http://www.lyngsat.com/headlines.html


----------



## purtman

moonman said:


> According to LyngSat...DirecTV 10 has "arrived"
> http://www.lyngsat.com/headlines.html


That's interesting. I wonder what that means for us now.


----------



## harsh

purtman said:


> That's interesting. I wonder what that means for us now.


That we should be skeptical about the information we find on Lyngsat?


----------



## moonman

purtman said:


> That's interesting. I wonder what that means for us now.


-----------------------
New H/D channels on Sept 4-5 ????


----------



## harsh

purtman said:


> Did the Dog Whisperer get ahold of Harsh? He's been very, very quiet. I guess the beagle has been tamed.


That's a Bassett Hound!


----------



## hdtvfan0001

harsh said:


> That's a Bassett Hound!


No *this* is a basset hound....

....OK...he's actually a BAGEL (Bassett Beagle, or esle a Beagle Stretch).... :lol:

Back on topic....

Based on the earlier post I read...it seems D*TV is ahead of schedule, and looking to get the new bird activated by mid-September at the latest. Great news!


----------



## donshan

leww37334 said:


> I also like this DMA map:
> 
> http://www.truckads.com/licensed_affiliates1.asp
> 
> I noted at least one difference in the two maps immediately, so I am not sure which is correct.


Nielsen revises the DMA rankings every year and a DMA market may move up and down in rank as their population statistics change and TV viewer counts change. The maps are dated too, and if you click on the small map in the link I posted it enlarges and has a date of September,2005. I would guess different maps have different revision dates. These maps are widely used by advertisers on TV since different versions of ads are often custom made for specific market areas.


----------



## n2deep2bn

moonman said:


> According to LyngSat...DirecTV 10 has "arrived"
> http://www.lyngsat.com/headlines.html


According to this it is at 102.8. Maybe we will see new HD channels this week.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

n2deep2bn said:


> According to this it is at 102.8. Maybe we will see new HD channels this week.


I think that's unrealistic, as they've been testing it since orbit handoff, but still need about 2 weeks once it's in the final 103 (102.8) location as well.

That said, it would still put things a slight bit ahead of schedule if things go smoothly the next 2 weeks, with Labor day weekend or the following weekedn as potential "live" dates. Otiginally, the target was about 9/16 or 9/17.

We can only hope.


----------



## oakwcj

n2deep2bn said:


> According to this it is at 102.8. Maybe we will see new HD channels this week.


Except that it's NOT at 102.8. It's at 102.62.


----------



## donshan

oakwcj said:


> Except that it's NOT at 102.8. It's at 102.62.


 Yes, and further D* has asked FCC for permission to begin to move to 102.775 W "on or about Sept 1" ( and it will take FCC a few workdays to say "OK"), so I expect some pretty dull "lack of news" days for the rest of August and patience is needed.

For the impatient, you can keep a 24/7 watch on channel 499 for us and report the instant that "searching for satellite message" changes. 

Also for the "very eager" who parse words, September 1 in Universal Time (UT) begins late on August 31 USA Eastern Daylight Time allowing a 4 hour headstart.


----------



## purtman

harsh said:


> That's a Bassett Hound!


Oh no! They turned the beagle into a basset hound! :lol:


----------



## wilmot3

I was just in and checked the TLE and this is what I got, doesn't look right can someone clarify this?

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07230.32563507 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00588
2 31862 000.1265 286.6298 0000303 094.4509 319.7991 01.00275773000432


----------



## harsh

donshan said:


> Nielsen revises the DMA rankings every year and a DMA market may move up and down in rank as their population statistics change and TV viewer counts change.


On a slightly different subject, D* and E* may not be using the current DMA maps or even the same maps to determine their local service areas.


----------



## Badger

Dolly said:


> Great post  Now lets see if dummy here understood it :blush: So the lower your DMA number is the faster you get things like HD for your area. I can't believe the number listed for my area--it seems too low. And it took us ages to get our locals from D. May be DMA wasn't followed for locals


D* hasn't followed the DMA list in numerical order. My local HD stations are Madison Wisconsin which is #85 on the DMA list and we were turned on about a year ago. Green Bay came up at the same time. Both way ahead of there numerical DMA order. There have other DMA's that also were turned on way before their numerical turn. I think things like number of subscribers in a DMA must come into play along withe agreements with the local HD stations. Some DMA's don't have some or all HD stations even available.


----------



## sat2631

wilmot3 said:


> I was just in and checked the TLE and this is what I got, doesn't look right can someone clarify this?
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07230.32563507 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00588
> 2 31862 000.1265 286.6298 0000303 094.4509 319.7991 01.00275773000432


New TLE now.

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07231.37739324 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 596
2 31862 000.1241 286.7744 0000296 102.9655 330.8258 01.00275820 456


----------



## gfree111

wilmot3 said:


> I was just in and checked the TLE and this is what I got, doesn't look right can someone clarify this?
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07230.32563507 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00588
> 2 31862 000.1265 286.6298 0000303 094.4509 319.7991 01.00275773000432


I verified the data from space-track and its the latest data. My tracking program says the location is 102.62 W longitude and 0.12 S latitude. Its a slight improvement in eccentricity of orbit and the latitude position of the previous data. The orbit is well within the geostationary orbit configurations of the other satellites except for location. It appears they are moving the satellite very slowly each day to get it to the equator while they test the new bird. Its been in testing range for at least 3-4 days based on Space-Track data.


----------



## gfree111

gfree111 said:


> I verified the data from space-track and its the latest data. My tracking program says the location is 102.62 W longitude and 0.12 S latitude. Its a slight improvement in eccentricity of orbit and the latitude position of the previous data. The orbit is well within the geostationary orbit configurations of the other satellites except for location. It appears they are moving the satellite very slowly each day to get it to the equator while they test the new bird. Its been in testing range for at least 3-4 days based on Space-Track data.


Latest Space-Track data I used:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07231.37739324 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 596
2 31862 000.1241 286.7744 0000296 102.9655 330.8258 01.00275820 456

Data set previously listed was from previous day.


----------



## donshan

Badger said:


> D* hasn't followed the DMA list in numerical order. My local HD stations are Madison Wisconsin which is #85 on the DMA list and we were turned on about a year ago. Green Bay came up at the same time. Both way ahead of there numerical DMA order. There have other DMA's that also were turned on way before their numerical turn. I think things like number of subscribers in a DMA must come into play along withe agreements with the local HD stations. Some DMA's don't have some or all HD stations even available.


True, there are exceptions as D* is also going where their customers are concentrated, Green Bay has the Packers and I bet just about every TV household in that DMA wants NFL HD Football on their HDTV so there is a big demand. 

That said however, according to the list here on dbstalk only 2 of the top of the list between DMA1 through DMA 55 do not now have HD locals, so competing with cable in major population DMAs is a primary goal in the LIL HD expansion( DMAs 42 and 53 seem missing). In contrast in the remaining DMAs from 56 to 210 only 8 DMAs below DMA 55 have gotten LIL HD so far.

http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_HDLIL_DMA.html


----------



## Ken984

wilmot3 said:


> I was just in and checked the TLE and this is what I got, doesn't look right can someone clarify this?
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07230.32563507 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00588
> 2 31862 000.1265 286.6298 0000303 094.4509 319.7991 01.00275773000432


The 2 numbers in red are the main ones to be concerned with, the first is inclination and the second is eccentricity. the closer to 0 they are the better although at this point both are low enough for the sat to be tested. All these corrections are so small nothing is going to change too much.


----------



## Ed Campbell

donshan said:


> For the impatient, you can keep a 24/7 watch on channel 499 for us and report the instant that "searching for satellite message" changes.


They know we're watching!

Finally got round to pointing out via email that the portion of the Guide menu > Categories > Sports wasn't exactly alphabetical - since it lists "soccer" as coming before "snowboarding".

The answer was the usual boilerplate about "we're pleased to hear, blah, blah" - followed by a note that said "we see you have an HR20 - do you have the BBC's attached and ready to go for the new HD programming?" - words to that effect.

Yes, I zapped an email back saying, "how soon, how soon, how soon, how soon?"


----------



## wilmot3

donshan said:


> True, there are exceptions as D* is also going where their customers are concentrated, Green Bay has the Packers and I bet just about every TV household in that DMA wants NFL HD Football on their HDTV so there is a big demand.
> 
> That said however, according to the list here on dbstalk only 2 of the top of the list between DMA1 through DMA 55 do not now have HD locals, so competing with cable in major population DMAs is a primary goal in the LIL HD expansion( DMAs 42 and 53 seem missing). In contrast in the remaining DMAs from 56 to 210 only 8 DMAs below DMA 55 have gotten LIL HD so far.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_HDLIL_DMA.html


I live in Sullivan county PA. We r in the Scranton/Wilkes Barra market (DMA 53) We do not have the locals in HD yet.


----------



## donshan

wilmot3 said:


> I live in Sullivan county PA. We r in the Scranton/Wilkes Barra market (DMA 53) We do not have the locals in HD yet.


 Bummer! Did you get bypassed in the Spaceway 1 & 2 series because not all your local digital stations were broadcasting in HD back in 2004- 2005 or so when they probably planned it? If that was the problem then, and all are HD now, you should be first in line for the LIL on D10 as soon as they get to the LIL portion of the current HD roll out IMHO.

Good luck now!

Edit: I should have also mentioned possible permission contract issues too. That continues to hold up some channels if your locals are involved in some common disputes over payments etc. Your should have heard about those locally. And does your cable company have all your HD channels in their lineup now? If so I would think D* would be anxious to get you on D10.


----------



## wilmot3

donshan said:


> Bummer! Did you get bypassed in the Spaceway 1 & 2 series because not all your local digital stations were broadcasting in HD back in 2004- 2005 or so when they probably planned it? If that was the problem then, and all are HD now, you should be first in line for the LIL on D10 as soon as they get to the LIL portion of the current HD roll out IMHO.
> 
> Good luck now!


OH THAT WOULD BE SWEET!!!!!!!!:icon_da:


----------



## Dolly

wilmot3 said:


> I live in Sullivan county PA. We r in the Scranton/Wilkes Barra market (DMA 53) We do not have the locals in HD yet.


Well you are down lower than I am so hang in there  And thanks for everyone letting me know that D isn't exactly following the DMA numbers :sunsmile:


----------



## Sirshagg

Which will come first?

This post hits 200k views
We all get more HD


----------



## Smthkd

This post hits 200K!!


----------



## John4924

Sirshagg said:


> Which will come first?
> 
> This post hits 200k views
> We all get more HD


I say more HD! :lol:


----------



## donshan

Sirshagg said:


> Which will come first?
> 
> This post hits 200k views
> We all get more HD


Thread title is "D10 Satellite-HD Testing Schedule/Press Releases/Location"

We now know D10's location and it is fine. The HD Testing schedule is known and runs until " on or about Sepember 1", so there is very little "new information" to discuss. That leaves "press releases" which are few and far between, but there should be a FCC announcement approving the September 1 move and new operational location. So when everyone realizes there is little new information available , hits on this thread will slow down.

I see a dull rest of August, then one day a new TLE will come out showing orbit change indicating that is moving D 10 again- but many days away, scheduled for Sept 1. Channel 499 will light up. Then things happen quickly, we get HD and this thread closes long before 200K so a new one can discuss how good things are , but there will be those who "want it better".

Patience, Patience, Patience!


----------



## jlancaster

wilmot3 said:


> I live in Sullivan county PA. We r in the Scranton/Wilkes Barra market (DMA 53) We do not have the locals in HD yet.


I'm in that same market and its frustrating to see others like Portland Maine get it before us...I guess by Feb 08 we can enjoy...How is OTA where you are pretty good here but I am closer to Penobscot mountain.


----------



## purtman

I did notice that Ch. 77 is on the guide this morning. It doesn't have anything listed yet, but apparently they're getting ready.


----------



## HIGHWAY

I Live In Dunmore Pa Ota In Hd Very Good


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> I did notice that Ch. 77 is on the guide this morning. It doesn't have anything listed yet, but apparently they're getting ready.


Channels 77 and 92 are now active with repeating info messages

See new thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95376

Getting close!


----------



## oakwcj

New TLEs. Get 'em while they're hot:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07232.38587560 -.00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 600
2 31862 000.1218 286.8867 0000330 110.0098 327.7335 01.00275929 469


----------



## jrodfoo

donshan said:


> Channels 77 and 92 are now active with repeating info messages
> 
> See new thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95376
> 
> Getting close!


So So close! My TV is starving for more HD.


----------



## dconfer

jlancaster said:


> I'm in that same market and its frustrating to see others like Portland Maine get it before us...I guess by Feb 08 we can enjoy...How is OTA where you are pretty good here but I am closer to Penobscot mountain.


Iam in the same market but Iam in Clinton County. No OTA for me. Glad I was able to get the DNS fields from NYC.


----------



## wilmot3

dconfer said:


> Iam in the same market but Iam in Clinton County. No OTA for me. Glad I was able to get the DNS fields from NYC.[/QUOTE
> 
> My feelings r they will put the locals up in HD sooner or later. Didn't feel the need to spend the money on an antenna only to find out cause of the mountains it wouldn't work. We have the networks out of NY in HD.


----------



## rrrick8

donshan said:


> Channels 77 and 92 are now active with repeating info messages
> 
> See new thread:
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95376
> 
> Getting close!


Along with 510 & 541


----------



## donshan

oakwcj said:


> New TLEs. Get 'em while they're hot:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07232.38587560 -.00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 600
> 2 31862 000.1218 286.8867 0000330 110.0098 327.7335 01.00275929 469


Getting back to this topic, when they begin to drift D10 from its present testing slot at 102.6x W towards the planned 102.775 W position will this show up in a change in one of these TLE parameters first in order to make it move, or will we just see it slowly begin to drift in Longitude with little noticeable change in the TLE numbers?

I am still learning how they do this.


----------



## Ken984

It will move, and there will probably be an update but its gonna be so slight it will barely be noticeable. Probably will not get the updated TLE first if that is what you are asking.


----------



## LameLefty

The eccentricity will go up by a factor of probably 10 - 50, but the inclination likely won't. In fact, they may take the opportunity to try to lower it even more.


----------



## syphix

Just bought a new 47" 1080P LCD HDTV...

Now it's a waiting game...


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> The eccentricity will go up by a factor of probably 10 - 50, but the inclination likely won't. In fact, they may take the opportunity to try to lower it even more.


Thanks Lefty and Ken. That confirms what I suspected as the Spaceway 1 orbit did not seem to change much when they drifted it over, but I didn't know what to watch for. At that time I was plotting both Spaceway1 and DirecTV10 on n2yo to watch D10 home in until their calculations became suspect.

I will probably just watch n2yo.com as Sept 1 comes around, as it seems they have fairly good longitude data now . It seems to me that when drift begins it will be the first real indication of when to expect HD to arrive. I hope you two keep an eye on when it gets to 102.775 W. My "The Sky" program seems to match Ken's posted longitude numbers fairly closely. when I input the same TLE data.

With those three decimals Boeing has better software and anybody here! 
Bet their software cost a bundle too!:eek2:


----------



## LameLefty

donshan said:


> With those three decimals Boeing has better software and anybody here!
> Bet their software cost a bundle too!:eek2:


When I worked for Boeing in a previous life, most of our software was either custom-written (a version of Intergraph I/EMS written just for our program) or a VERY expensive specialized application (like CATIA and various finite-element analysis tools), not consumer-grade stuff at all. Oh, we did use Word and Excel for reports and stuff, however. On Macs. 

If they're not using their own in-house solutions, stuff like THIS is what they use:

http://www.agi.com/


----------



## Dolly

syphix said:


> Just bought a new 47" 1080P LCD HDTV...
> 
> Now it's a waiting game...


A wonderful choice :righton: Now come on D :sunsmile:


----------



## DawgLink

syphix said:


> Just bought a new 47" 1080P LCD HDTV...
> 
> Now it's a waiting game...


I bet you were as amazed as I was when I first bought my TV.

Though it was my first HDTV and it was like 4x the screen size of my last TV.

Such a difference

Can't believe I ever had non-HD TV's


----------



## bwaldron

DawgLink said:


> I bet you were as amazed as I was when I first bought my TV.
> 
> Though it was my first HDTV and it was like 4x the screen size of my last TV.
> 
> Such a difference
> 
> Can't believe I ever had non-HD TV's


I can't believe that I was able to physically get rid of my old 36" WEGA CRT. What a monster...though I never worried about it being stolen 

Yeah, the first look at an HD picture was pretty amazing....


----------



## ejjames

I have a 36" sony HDTV. I would like to upgrade someday, but dread the day I have to find a way to get rid of it. I'm disabled so I can't even help! A CRT HD picture does look great, if not a little small.

ej


----------



## P Smith

Oh, please stop polluting the thread.


----------



## VeniceDre

:backtotop please.


----------



## syphix

DawgLink said:


> I bet you were as amazed as I was when I first bought my TV.
> 
> Though it was my first HDTV and it was like 4x the screen size of my last TV.
> 
> Such a difference
> 
> Can't believe I ever had non-HD TV's


This isn't my first HD set...it's replacing my CRT projection TV.

But I can't wait to be able to sit ANYWHERE in the room to see the TV!!:righton:


----------



## Reggie3

Hey guys stay on topic - discuss your size issues elsewhere


----------



## purtman

Reggie3 said:


> Hey guys stay on topic - discuss your size issues elsewhere


+1
Just about to post the same.


----------



## PoitNarf

Looks like we're in that lull while the testing takes place. I'm itching for some new developments.


----------



## spoonman

PoitNarf said:


> Looks like we're in that lull while the testing takes place. I'm itching for some new developments.


No itching yourself in public forums


----------



## EaglePC

-1
hurricane dean could delay this test?


----------



## purtman

EaglePC said:


> -1
> hurricane dean could delay this test?


Why would you ask that? Is there something you heard?


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> -1
> hurricane dean could delay this test?


Absolutely not. The line of sight between the US and D10 does not intersect the hurricane in any way shape or form. The sat would have to have a ridiculous low elevation of like 5 degrees or something like that to have the hurricane affect anything.


----------



## Steve Robertson

How about we start bashing E* for entertainment it seems the E* folks like to bash D* folks

Just a thought


----------



## richiephx

How bout we make an exception to rules and maybe start bashing the people who want to bash?


----------



## PoitNarf

Steve Robertson said:


> How about we start bashing E* for entertainment it seems the E* folks like to bash D* folks
> 
> Just a thought


How about we stay on topic and only talk about D10 and the impending new HD channels?

Just a thought


----------



## RAD

Steve Robertson said:


> How about we start bashing E* for entertainment it seems the E* folks like to bash D* folks
> 
> Just a thought


How about waiting until D* actually fires up the channels before going off on the usual E* folks that always are bashing D*.


----------



## loudo

EaglePC said:


> -1
> hurricane dean could delay this test?


Maybe if they were running the tests out of Cancun.


----------



## EaglePC

EaglePC said:


> -1
> hurricane dean could delay this test?


I was trying to get this topic back on the topic

ARE WE THERE YET ?


----------



## Steve Robertson

richiephx said:


> How bout we make an exception to rules and maybe start bashing the people who want to bash?


Now that sounds like fun


----------



## The_Geyser

This waiting is driving me crazy! I just was watching channel 77 to make sure I'm ready for the new channels!


----------



## EaglePC

CH 499 I get searching for signal on satellite in 1... 
after a while watching it
changes to searching for signal on satellite in 2...


----------



## purtman

EaglePC said:


> CH 499 I get searching for signal on satellite in 1...
> after a while watching it
> changes to searching for signal on satellite in 2...


You're all set up. You should be fine when they come on.


----------



## RoundRockJohn

I have to say, I'm just a lurker here, but I'm very excited about this stuff going live. HDTV programming has rekindled my interest in Television, really. My TV is more than just my Sports box, now.


----------



## PoitNarf

RoundRockJohn said:


> I have to say, I'm just a lurker here, but I'm very excited about this stuff going live. HDTV programming has rekindled my interest in Television, really. My TV is more than just my Sports box, now.


Welcome to DBSTalk


----------



## Steve Robertson

There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


----------



## PoitNarf

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


Just a little while longer, then the insanity will decline at least to some degree  We all have to hang in there, the promised land is almost on the horizon


----------



## wheelswagz

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


:lol: !rolling


----------



## P Smith

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


:hair:

:backtotop please.


----------



## EaglePC

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


its the best Medicine for us HD LOVERS 
:group:


----------



## RoundRockJohn

I keep telling my wife about all the new HD content that's coming, and she looked at me like I was crazy. Then she asked, "does that mean you'll be watching more TV?". I answered in the affirmative. She responded by going to bestbuy.com and shopping for another HDTV for upstairs. 

Sometimes, I don't understand women.


----------



## wilmot3

:icon_bb: :icon_band I Want My Hdtv!!!!!! :hair:


----------



## Ken984

RoundRockJohn said:


> I keep telling my wife about all the new HD content that's coming, and she looked at me like I was crazy. Then she asked, "does that mean you'll be watching more TV?". I answered in the affirmative. She responded by going to bestbuy.com and shopping for another HDTV for upstairs.
> 
> Sometimes, I don't understand women.


Do NOT question her buying another HDTV...just enjoy the fact that she is into it.. 
My wife rolls her eyes at me every time i am on here, asks what good is the HDTV if you are on the web talking about it so much


----------



## Steve Robertson

Ken984 said:


> Do NOT question her buying another HDTV...just enjoy the fact that she is into it..
> My wife rolls her eyes at me every time i am on here, asks what good is the HDTV if you are on the web talking about it so much


My wife could careless about HDTV she would be happy with a B&W 13 inch tv if it were up to her.


----------



## EaglePC

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters.


----------



## Ken984

My wife says the same stuff, when i say look how good it looks. But then a month later she out of nowhere says "we need a bigger tv". Oh yeah back on topic...current position as of 2 pm...according to yesterday's TLE

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5952° W
Lat	0.0723° S
Alt (km)	35 785.550
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	10h 05m 08s
Decl	-5° 20' 49"
Range (km)	37 012.010
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	115.7° (82)
TA	115.7°
Orbit #	48
Mag (illum)	? (1%)


----------



## Sirshagg

EaglePC said:


> The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 2 characters.


NP


----------



## Steve Robertson

Ken984 said:


> My wife says the same stuff, when i say look how good it looks. But then a month later she out of nowhere says "we need a bigger tv". Oh yeah back on topic...current position as of 2 pm...according to yesterday's TLE
> 
> 1DIRECTV 10
> Lon	102.5952° W
> Lat	0.0723° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.550
> Azm	196.1°
> Elv	51.0°
> RA	10h 05m 08s
> Decl	-5° 20' 49"
> Range (km)	37 012.010
> RRt (km/s)	0.000
> Vel (km/s)	3.075
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	115.7° (82)
> TA	115.7°
> Orbit #	48
> Mag (illum)	? (1%)


My wife would never say lets get a bigger tv she almost dropped when she saw the 1 I bought I think for the 1st time she was speechless it was pretty funny.


----------



## loudo

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


Help is on the way, in the form of 100 HD channels.


----------



## houskamp

Steve Robertson said:


> My wife could careless about HDTV she would be happy with a B&W 13 inch tv if it were up to her.


nothin quite like old scratchy black&white movies on a HDTV :lol:


----------



## Steve Robertson

houskamp said:


> nothin quite like old scratchy black&white movies on a HDTV :lol:


Yup the 3 stooges look great:lol:


----------



## Hdhead

Will we all receive the Big Ten Network or do we need the Sports Package?


----------



## Steve Robertson

Hdhead said:


> Will we all receive the Big Ten Network or do we need the Sports Package?


No sports package required


----------



## P Smith

:hair: :hair: :hair: :hair: :hair: 

:backtotop please


----------



## spoonman

P Smith said:


> :hair: :hair: :hair: :hair: :hair:
> 
> :backtotop please


I think the topic is lost


----------



## syphix

spoonman said:


> I think the topic is lost


More like the topic is "paused"...nothing really happening until D* starts broadcasting on D10.

Question: was there a "hand off" press release about Boeing/DirecTV??


----------



## P Smith

spoonman said:


> I think the topic is lost


The topic still there, but ppl lost themselves !


----------



## JLucPicard

So do you suppose when the sat lights up and all that HD starts streaming that people in El Sugundo will start turning over cars and burning them, breaking store windows, looting, and such?


----------



## noneroy

JLucPicard said:


> So do you suppose when the sat lights up and all that HD starts streaming that people in El Sugundo will start turning over cars and burning them, breaking store windows, looting, and such?


No. Probably not.


----------



## man_rob

Dude, Where's My Topic?

To use a non waiting-for-Christmas-morning metaphor: At this point, it's like the roller coaster has reached the crest of the first hill, and we are at the point where it almost stops before we go over.


----------



## donshan

syphix said:


> More like the topic is "paused"...nothing really happening until D* starts broadcasting on D10.
> 
> Question: was there a "hand off" press release about Boeing/DirecTV??


No. People seem interested in this thread hitting 200K are filling it up because there is no real news.

Around August 31 and days following , I bet there will be a lot to post.

Patience!

See post:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1056951&postcount=1145


----------



## donshan

man_rob said:


> Dude, Where's My Topic?
> 
> To use a non waiting-for-Christmas-morning metaphor: At this point, it's like the roller coaster has reached the crest of the first hill, and we are at the point where it almost stops before we go over.


To use a "Waiting-for-Christmas-morning metaphor" note that they plan to START to move D!0 into position for operation "on or about September 1".

So if you want to sneak in to look under the tree early, note that September 1 in Universal Time (UT) begins at 8PM August 31 Eastern Daylight Time!


----------



## mroot

Steve Robertson said:


> There is a bunch of sick people on here watching 499 change tunners and others watching the 4 minute loop over and over again. I think we all need some serious help.


I'd watch that 4-minute loop over and over...if it was in hi-def!


----------



## Sirshagg

mroot said:


> I'd watch that 4-minute loop over and over...if it was in hi-def!


Good one.

!pusht!


----------



## RAD

mroot said:


> I'd watch that 4-minute loop over and over...if it was in hi-def!


Then you'd probably like the Voom channels then


----------



## dwrats_56

I was listening to a podcast from the HT Guys, http://www.htguys.com , and (if I heard correctly) they made the comment about 15 additional HD channels by the end of the month and another 60 channels in September. YEAH!!!:goofygrin

I don't know where they got the information, but it sounds good to me????


----------



## Sirshagg

dwrats_56 said:


> I was listening to a podcast from the HT Guys, http://www.htguys.com , and (if I heard correctly) they made the comment about 15 additional HD channels by the end of the month and another 60 channels in September. YEAH!!!:goofygrin
> 
> I don't know where they got the information, but it sounds good to me????


I'd surely welcome it but I don't see any way that it's possible unless the new sat is ready THAT early.


----------



## morgantown

The sat should be ready...it is the carriage agreements that would give me pause. But how many RSN's are there? 

They may not be that far off.

Edit: I read the statement as 15 new HD channels by the end of September...we won't see a single one by the end of August (i.e., in the next 9 days and 4 hours).


----------



## DawgLink

Just be sure to tell me when new channels arrive


----------



## Sirshagg

DawgLink said:


> Just be sure to tell me when new channels arrive


I'm sure they will send you a 4 minute video in your playlist that you can't delete.


----------



## PoitNarf

Sirshagg said:


> I'm sure they will send you a 4 minute video in your playlist that you can't delete.


This will probably end up being the most effective way of notifying most of their customers of the impending HD launches.


----------



## uncrules

I've watched the video on channel 77 but it has never downloaded to my HR20.


----------



## jrodfoo

uncrules said:


> I've watched the video on channel 77 but it has never downloaded to my HR20.


ditto. I guess just the 700s got it if I'm not mistaken.

hope these next 2-3 weeks fly by.


----------



## Sirshagg

jrodfoo said:


> ditto. I guess just the 700s got it if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> hope these next 2-3 weeks fly by.


But not all of them. One of mine has it and the other doesn't.


----------



## loudo

uncrules said:


> I've watched the video on channel 77 but it has never downloaded to my HR20.


I got it tonight, automatically downloaded to my Play List, from Channel 1010, and Yes you couldn't delete it until you viewed it.


----------



## loudo

jrodfoo said:


> ditto. I guess just the 700s got it if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> hope these next 2-3 weeks fly by.


Make sure you are not using a favorites list. Had mine on on my H20 and it wasn't picking them up, until I added them to favorites.


----------



## EaglePC

views 122,513 and going


----------



## Dolly

I haven't watched that video yet. I just turn on the Channel to see if that video is still there and then turn to another Channel  And how do you tell if it was downloaded to the HR20  As you can tell I don't record :lol: I just read somewhere you got better reception, if you had the HR20. So I got the HR20-700--what do I know--nothing :blush:


----------



## Sirshagg

EaglePC said:


> views 122,513 and going


Definitely 200k first. Suppose the better question is 300k?


----------



## jlancaster

Dolly said:


> I haven't watched that video yet. I just turn on the Channel to see if that video is still there and then turn to another Channel  And how do you tell if it was downloaded to the HR20  As you can tell I don't record :lol: I just read somewhere you got better reception, if you had the HR20. So I got the HR20-700--what do I know--nothing :blush:


It will show up in your "My Playlist" and you cannot delete it...I enjoy reading your posts its rare to see someone so "bright" :sunsmile:


----------



## EaglePC

Ch 499 jumped from 720p to 1080i anyone noticed


----------



## EaglePC

jlancaster said:


> It will show up in your "My Playlist" and you cannot delete it...I enjoy reading your posts its rare to see someone so "bright" :sunsmile:


oh yes SD looks way better in reception on a HR20 to me that is 
I had a H20 once


----------



## jlancaster

EaglePC said:


> oh yes SD looks way better in reception on a HR20 to me that is
> I had a H20 once


? What do you mean...


----------



## EaglePC

jlancaster said:


> ? What do you mean...


I think with the hr20 you get a better picture quality
on my old h20 i got smear disclored grainy picturelike watch a vcr....


----------



## jlancaster

EaglePC said:


> I think with the hr20 you get a better picture quality
> on my old h20 i got smear disclored grainy picturelike watch a vcr....


Welcome brother the water is fine...jump in!


----------



## richlife

Ok, first of all, it's fascinating to watch the technical info in this thread.
Second, c'mon Petie, what else is there to talk about right now?
Third, I'm almost always overloaded with the content available with only 10 - no 8 -- or is it 9 HD channels. How am I going to cope with 20, or 30 or 70 or -- no, no, no! I just can't handle the stress! 

Give me overload! Give me overload! Give me overload! 

Is there anybody OUT there? 
D* -- do you hear me? 

Going down the drain, 
Going down the drain -- 
All we have to say
Is that we're going down the drain.

Edit: Tune is Bringing in the Sheaves. Now, doesn't that read better?


----------



## Sixto

Been sitting pretty at a steady 102.6 degrees for a few days now .... would love to have a view into the testing ... probably all kinds of internal tests being run ... then channels to be setup ... very nice


----------



## tonyn

Egad folks! What is the big deal? I am really looking forward to D-10 too, but I already spend too much time watching the HD I already have. I'd think my home theatre was worth the expense and effort if the only channel was Discovery HD!
I don't have enough time to watch all the Extreme Engineering shows. 

My fav show isn't even in HD. It is Davinci's Inquest. Re-runs of a Canadian cop show. Kinda "Dragnet-esque" Gritty, down to earth, low key color. Almost has a black & white feel. Not like CIS maimi where the color is so enhanced it looks like a Disney cartoon. On DI the mourge looks like a morgue, not like a Los Vegas penthouse, as on CSI.

In short, I am eager, but I can wait. Got plenty to do meanwhile.

Tony


----------



## donshan

Sixto said:


> now .... would love to have a view into the testing ... probably all kinds of internal tests being run ...


Be careful what you ask for!

Just for the fun of it to see what is generally involved in testing in orbit, (and to keep this more or less near the topic), I Googled "communications Satellite in orbit tests" and got this Abstract link on Intelsat IV A and Comstar- 1977 in orbit testing :

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977COMTR...7..197D



> COMMUNICATION EQUIPMENT, COMMUNICATION SATELLITES, PERFORMANCE TESTS, SPACECRAFT PERFORMANCE, ANTENNA RADIATION PATTERNS, CALIBRATING, FREQUENCY RESPONSE, INTELSAT SATELLITES, MICROWAVE TRANSMISSION, NOISE TEMPERATURE, RADIANT FLUX DENSITY, RADIO BEACONS, SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIOS, TRAVELING WAVE TUBES
> Bibliographic Code:
> 1977COMTR...7..197D
> Abstract
> 
> Test arrangements for in-orbit testing of the Intelsat IV-A and Comstar communications satellite spacecraft are described. Calibration and measurement procedures are described and results are displayed. Parameters measured include: flux density for saturation, spacecraft effective isotropically radiated power, antenna beam patterns, beam isolation, gain transfer characteristics, gain-to-noise temperature ratio, receiver local oscillator frequencies, wave tube turn-on transients, in-band and out-of-band frequency response, and cross polarization. The history of development of the testing procedures is outlined.


That was 1977. Imagine how much more complex D10 is, so even the names of the items to test are different and many more of them! Do we really want to know all those kinds of things? And I can just hear them, " get a duplicate set of data on each value.

And then a third repeat set of data, because " a man with only two watches never knows exactly what time it is". They need at least three sets of data on each value to calculate accuracy statistics.

This thread could really get to 200K explaining all those terms to me! And then how about someone explaining them in plain English to Dolly too:?

Oh please, NO!


----------



## Dave

All right you all. Here goes. I watched the spectacular launch of D10 with the rest of you great forum members. Now it is time for my BIG PREDICTION on when D10 will light up the screens. I am predicting that the official launch or turning on date for D10 will be________________September 5, 2007. D10 will start it's move to position on September 1, 2007 to 102.775. It will reach its home for good on the evening of the 3rd or early morning of the 4th of September 2007. Then we have some trial and errors for finishing the complete set up. Then on the magic day of SEPTEMBER 9, 2007 all NFL will come to us in full MPEG 4's glory. YES_____________ it will happen.


----------



## EaglePC

Actually, Directv10 is currently at the test position of 102.6°W. It will not be in the final position of 102.8°W until a few days before it goes live. 
Some good news. Spoke with a tech guy from D* today, and he said some channels could be up and running as early as this month. He also said expect to see about 70 - 75 new HD channels before the end of September.


----------



## igator99

loudo said:


> I got it tonight, automatically downloaded to my Play List, from Channel 1010, and Yes you couldn't delete it until you viewed it.


Is this coming from the new sat? It is in 480?


----------



## CTuser

igator99 said:


> Is this coming from the new sat? It is in 480?


NO, not the new SAT. We can't even receive that signal yet.


----------



## uncrules

jrodfoo said:


> ditto. I guess just the 700s got it if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> hope these next 2-3 weeks fly by.


If you look at my signature, you'll notice that I have a 700. And as of this morning still no video downloaded to my box.


----------



## Steve Robertson

I haven't gotten the video download either I also have the 700


----------



## tgater

EaglePC said:


> Actually, Directv10 is currently at the test position of 102.6°W. It will not be in the final position of 102.8°W until a few days before it goes live.
> Some good news. Spoke with a tech guy from D* today, and he said some channels could be up and running as early as this month. He also said expect to see about 70 - 75 new HD channels before the end of September.


I had a CSR tell me the same last night when I activated my HR20-700 that replaced the HR-100(installed for 3 days before it bombed!) I thinks she was tring to get me to upgrade my six Sd boxes to HD boxes before the end of Sept. as well. I'll wait to see what boxes come out before the end of the year.


----------



## tgater

uncrules said:


> If you look at my signature, you'll notice that I have a 700. And as of this morning still no video downloaded to my box.


Same here 700 and no showcase.


----------



## JeffBowser

And I had a tech guy tell me there are no new satellites, and he knew nothing about new channels, and tried to install a non-compliant 4x8 switch in my attic. Take these guys with a grain of salt.



EaglePC said:


> Actually, Directv10 is currently at the test position of 102.6°W. It will not be in the final position of 102.8°W until a few days before it goes live.
> Some good news. Spoke with a tech guy from D* today, and he said some channels could be up and running as early as this month. He also said expect to see about 70 - 75 new HD channels before the end of September.


----------



## tgater

JeffBowser said:


> And I had a tech guy tell me there are no new satellites, and he knew nothing about new channels, and tried to install a non-compliant 4x8 switch in my attic. Take these guys with a grain of salt.


That's one of the problems with a company as big as D* that doesn't have set standards in place for consistency, some people just show up to work, do what they've been programed to do and until told differently stay out of the loop, heck some installers don't even have D*, they subscribe to cable!


----------



## dan8379

Dave said:


> Then on the magic day of SEPTEMBER 9, 2007 all NFL will come to us in full MPEG 4's glory. YES_____________ it will happen.


I'm pretty sure it's been said that Sunday Ticket HD games will continue to be MPEG-2 this season.


----------



## loudo

igator99 said:


> Is this coming from the new sat? It is in 480?


It was in 3x4 format. Funny thing is if I punch in channel 1010 I don't get anything but that is the channel it came from.


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

dan8379 said:


> I'm pretty sure it's been said that Sunday Ticket HD games will continue to be MPEG-2 this season.


Yes the Sunday Ticket and Super Fan games will be in MPEG2 HD this year.


----------



## John4924

Looks like cox is attempting to catch up with D* HD channels by using switched digital video starting in Northern Virginia 

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6470803.html

More competition in the HD marketplace is good for all of us 

Cheers,
John


----------



## spoonman

John4924 said:


> Looks like cox is attempting to catch up with D* HD channels by using switched digital video starting in Northern Virginia
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6470803.html
> 
> More competition in the HD marketplace is good for all of us
> 
> Cheers,
> John


only a 100 stations by the end 2009 !rolling


----------



## man_rob

John4924 said:


> Looks like cox is attempting to catch up with D* HD channels by using switched digital video starting in Northern Virginia
> 
> http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6470803.html
> 
> More competition in the HD marketplace is good for all of us
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Those folks with shiny new Tivo 3 Series are going to be upset. It doesn't work with the switched video scheme.

Interesting that they don't expect to hit 100 HD channels until the end of '09.


----------



## Ken984

Updated TLE, eccentricity is slightly down as is inclination.

1 31862U 07032A 07233.43444944 -.00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 616
2 31862 000.1194 286.9950 0000261 111.7341 344.4363 01.00275898 471


----------



## bwaldron

JeffBowser said:


> And I had a tech guy tell me there are no new satellites, and he knew nothing about new channels, and tried to install a non-compliant 4x8 switch in my attic. Take these guys with a grain of salt.


No, with a whole _shaker_ of salt.


----------



## wilmot3

Ken984 said:


> Updated TLE, eccentricity is slightly down as is inclination.
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07233.43444944 -.00000099 00000-0 10000-3 0 616
> 2 31862 000.1194 286.9950 0000261 111.7341 344.4363 01.00275898 471


Where do u get your TLE info from. I just went into space-track and this is what I got.

DIRECTIVE 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07234.48664303 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 629
2 31862 000.1190 288.5906 0000096 233.5874 240.8190 01.00273853 483

Is this old data?


----------



## P Smith

wilmot3 said:


> Where do u get your TLE info from. I just went into space-track and this is what I got.
> 
> DIRECTIVE 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07234.48664303 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 629
> 2 31862 000.1190 288.5906 0000096 233.5874 240.8190 01.00273853 483
> 
> Is this old data?


But your dat look better and continue the trend.


----------



## wilmot3

:grin: Well that is what i thought but wanted a second opinion.


----------



## Dolly

bwaldron said:


> No, with a whole _shaker_ of salt.


+1


----------



## Ken984

If that is accurate then yours is newer than the one i had... i just checked in earlier and saw that one was newer than the one i was using.


----------



## Dolly

richlife said:


> Ok, first of all, it's fascinating to watch the technical info in this thread.
> Second, c'mon Petie, what else is there to talk about right now?
> Third, I'm almost always overloaded with the content available with only 10 - no 8 -- or is it 9 HD channels. How am I going to cope with 20, or 30 or 70 or -- no, no, no! I just can't handle the stress!
> 
> Give me overload! Give me overload! Give me overload!
> 
> Is there anybody OUT there?
> D* -- do you hear me?
> 
> Going down the drain,
> Going down the drain --
> All we have to say
> Is that we're going down the drain.
> 
> Edit: Tune is Bringing in the Sheaves. Now, doesn't that read better?


!rolling And I finally watched and listen to the video  It wasn't as painful as I thought it was going to be  I don't have any favorites or play list, but it sounds like the 700's didn't get the video anyway.


----------



## LameLefty

It's accurate, Ken.


----------



## Ken984

Using that TLE, the eccentricity is basically 0 now...go D10 gooooooooooo!!!

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5985° W
Lat	0.0465° S
Alt (km)	35 785.150
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	09h 02m 07s
Decl	-5° 19' 04"
Range (km)	37 009.917
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	334.6° (237)
TA	334.6°
Orbit #	48
Mag (illum)	? (3%)
Constellation	Hya

Name	DIRECTV10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-22 11:40:45
Orbit # at Epoch	48
Inclination	0.119
RA of A. Node	288.591
Eccentricity	0.0000096
Argument of Perigee	233.587
Revs per day	1.00273853
Period	23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 786 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	240.819
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	62 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## jrodfoo

Hooray for 0 eccentricity!!!


----------



## EaglePC

Ken984 said:


> Using that TLE, the eccentricity is basically 0 now...go D10 gooooooooooo!!!
> 
> 1DIRECTV10
> Lon	102.5985° W
> Lat	0.0465° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.150
> Azm	196.1°
> Elv	51.0°
> RA	09h 02m 07s
> Decl	-5° 19' 04"
> Range (km)	37 009.917
> RRt (km/s)	0.000
> Vel (km/s)	3.075
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	334.6° (237)
> TA	334.6°
> Orbit #	48
> Mag (illum)	? (3%)
> Constellation	Hya
> 
> Name	DIRECTV10
> NORAD #	31862
> COSPAR designator	2007-032-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-22 11:40:45
> Orbit # at Epoch	48
> Inclination	0.119
> RA of A. Node	288.591
> Eccentricity	0.0000096
> Argument of Perigee	233.587
> Revs per day	1.00273853
> Period	23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
> Semi-major axis	42 164 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 786 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	240.819
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	62 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A


Sat 103 Signals are there /and then disappear


----------



## Dolly

jrodfoo said:


> Hooray for 0 eccentricity!!!


:hurah: Now lets get to the really good part the HD :sunsmile:


----------



## Steve Robertson

jrodfoo said:


> Hooray for 0 eccentricity!!!


Is this a good thing???


----------



## LameLefty

Steve Robertson said:


> Is this a good thing???


It means the orbit is about as close to completely circular as is humanly possible and that a LOT of detailed testing is going on right now.


----------



## mike_augie

EaglePC said:


> Sat 103 Signals are there /and then disappear


what do you mean by this???all I have is the 6 or 7 transponders that I have always had???all the others are n/a


----------



## EaglePC

mike_augie said:


> what do you mean by this???all I have is the 6 or 7 transponders that I have always had???all the others are n/a


i had like 20 of them 20 mins ago now there gone i notice this when a do a repeat satellite setup


----------



## BudShark

Eagle gets the cookie for the most obsessive. 

Now Eagle - tell us why you were doing a satellite setup??? :lol:

(Visions of Eagle sitting in front of TV saying "Come on... give me a channel... come on...")

Chris


----------



## sportshermit

Just a thank you for all this information. I'm not completely certain I understand it all but it's good to know someone does.


----------



## Steve Robertson

LameLefty said:


> It means the orbit is about as close to completely circular as is humanly possible and that a LOT of detailed testing is going on right now.


Thank you and that sounds just outstanding.

Eagle you need some serious help but keep checking and report back


----------



## oakwcj

The satellite now appears to be drifting ever so slowly toward the East. Right now it's at 102.5982. In 24 hours it will be right at 102.5900.


----------



## mcbeevee

BudShark said:


> Eagle gets the cookie for the most obsessive.


Maybe this thread needs to be renamed to "The EaglePC has landed"!


----------



## John4924

oakwcj said:


> The satellite now appears to be drifting ever so slowly toward the East. Right now it's at 102.5982. In 24 hours it will be right at 102.5900.


What does this mean? Are we going the wrong way?


----------



## EaglePC

obsessive. 
Who me;yea thank you 
245 Hours been watching channel 499


----------



## EaglePC

Any DBSTalk Forum doctor in the house, going lunie


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> obsessive.
> Who me;yea thank you
> 245 Hours been watching channel 499


We've got a nice room with padded walls with your name all over it :lol:


----------



## Ken984

John4924 said:


> What does this mean? Are we going the wrong way?


All it means is that they will tweak it again, and again...just smaller tweaks.


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> obsessive.
> Who me;yea thank you
> 245 Hours been watching channel 499


Is 499 in HD yet?


----------



## EaglePC

Steve Robertson said:


> Is 499 in HD yet?


yep in 1080i now instead of 720p


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> yep in 1080i now instead of 720p


Great I am going home and I think I will set up a recording. How is the sound?


----------



## EaglePC

Steve Robertson said:


> Great I am going home and I think I will set up a recording. How is the sound?


great sound no distortion

only problem the screen is black

hurry up home you see your box resolutions keep jumping 720p to 1080i :hurah:

SHOWCASE_Are you High Definition Ready? Channels are GONE!!!


----------



## saxon2000

oakwcj said:


> The satellite now appears to be drifting ever so slowly toward the East. Right now it's at 102.5982. In 24 hours it will be right at 102.5900.


I have it 102.581 at this time...

:scratchin


----------



## EaglePC

saxon2000 said:


> I have it 102.581 at this time...
> 
> :scratchin


Oh I change my channel 499 Maybe I go back now


----------



## Steve Robertson

EaglePC said:


> great sound no distortion
> 
> only problem the screen is black
> 
> hurry up home you see your box resolutions keep jumping 720p to 1080i :hurah:
> 
> SHOWCASE_Are you High Definition Ready? Channels are GONE!!!


I like watching the light go back and forth thanks for the info.


----------



## mhayes70

EaglePC said:


> Oh I change my channel 499 Maybe I go back now


What?????


----------



## EaglePC

mhayes70 said:


> What?????


BANANAS


----------



## mhayes70

saxon2000 said:


> I have it 102.581 at this time...
> 
> :scratchin





EaglePC said:


> Oh I change my channel 499 Maybe I go back now





EaglePC said:


> BANANAS


Sorry bud. But, you lost me... saxon was talking about sat position and then you talked about channel number. That is were you lost me.


----------



## EaglePC

mhayes70 said:


> Sorry bud. But, you lost me... saxon was talking about sat position and then you talked about channel number. That is were you lost me.


Channel 499 is in high-def


----------



## wilmot3

Steve Robertson said:


> I like watching the light go back and forth thanks for the info.


:new_Eyecr Oh i can't keep this up to; fast; slow down


----------



## rrrick8

On this channel 499...
I've always gotten the "Searching for Satellite Signal" message.

Well, now I'm getting the "Your B-Band Converter is not connected" screen. 
This is appearing on both inputs.

Nothing has changed. They are both still connected. 

?????


----------



## EaglePC

rrrick8 said:


> On this channel 499...
> I've always gotten the "Searching for Satellite Signal" message.
> 
> Well, now I'm getting the "Your B-Band Converter is not connected" screen.
> This is appearing on both inputs.
> 
> Nothing has changed. They are both still connected.
> 
> ?????


I am with you scared me ,i thought something lit up on the screen


----------



## LameLefty

Dude, CHILL OUT! You are seriously complicating things for people who are actually trying to follow the progress/testing of this spacecraft.


----------



## ajtmcse

EaglePC said:


> Channel 499 is in high-def


Indeed it is - 1280 * 720 at this point.


----------



## EaglePC

lots of exciting things going on today

HR20-700 Software Update: 0x18a. Staggered Rollout
Channel 499 acting weird
CH 77 and 92 Are Now Gone!


----------



## binkatl

rrrick8 said:


> On this channel 499...
> I've always gotten the "Searching for Satellite Signal" message.
> 
> Well, now I'm getting the "Your B-Band Converter is not connected" screen.
> This is appearing on both inputs.
> 
> Nothing has changed. They are both still connected.
> 
> ?????


I'm seeing this too now. Anyone else? Should I be worried?


----------



## LameLefty

This stuff has NOTHING to do with DirecTV 10. 

PLEASE::backtotop


----------



## petergaryr

binkatl said:


> I'm seeing this too now. Anyone else? Should I be worried?


Well, 77 and 92 are gone, but 499 is still showing "searching for signal on satellite in 1".


----------



## mhayes70

petergaryr said:


> Well, 77 and 92 are gone, but 499 is still showing "searching for signal on satellite in 1".


There is a new thread about this. http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=95663


----------



## rrrick8

LameLefty said:


> This stuff has NOTHING to do with DirecTV 10.
> 
> PLEASE::backtotop


And how do we know that for sure?

Anyway, it has corrected now. Back to "Searching For Signal"


----------



## Ken984

saxon2000 said:


> I have it 102.581 at this time...
> 
> :scratchin


It looks like you are using the old TLE, make sure you are using this one..

1 31862U 07032A 07234.48664303 -.00000100 00000-0 10000-3 0 629
2 31862 000.1190 288.5906 0000096 233.5874 240.8190 01.00273853 483

Current position with this TLE is

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5970° W
Lat	0.0892° S
Alt (km)	35 785.130
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	11h 27m 07s
Decl	-5° 21' 58"
Range (km)	37 012.762
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	10.9° (8)
TA	10.9°
Orbit #	49
Mag (illum)	? (4%)
Constellation	Leo


----------



## Tom Robertson

John4924 said:


> oakwcj said:
> 
> 
> 
> The satellite now appears to be drifting ever so slowly toward the East. Right now it's at 102.5982. In 24 hours it will be right at 102.5900.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this mean? Are we going the wrong way?
Click to expand...

The orbital locations approved by the FCC are typically plus or minus .05° so all is well.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## purtman

LameLefty said:


> Dude, CHILL OUT! You are seriously complicating things for people who are actually trying to follow the progress/testing of this spacecraft.


What and who are you talking to?


----------



## LameLefty

rrrick8 said:


> And how do we know that for sure?
> 
> Anyway, it has corrected now. Back to "Searching For Signal"


BBC issues are not what this thread is about. It's much more likely your BBCs are acting glitchy - they have a high failure rate and many have had to have them replaced multiple times. The forums are full of that kind of story and information. IF there's any connection at all to D10's testing, it's complete and utter speculation at this point. Posts like these have added NOTHING to the knowledge base about D10's progress.

I don't usually play net.cop but these posts about BBCs and weird, stream-of-consciousness crap is burying tons of useful info that many people (including Tom, Don, Ken and me, among others) have been contributing over the past 6 weeks).


----------



## Interceptor

Wow, reading through the last few hours messages was a waste of time. :grin: 

Now back to our previously scheduled programming:

Take a look at that perigee x apogee. Exactly the same! And the orbital period is EXACTLY one day! Smooth...


----------



## M3 Pete

purtman said:


> What and who are you talking to?


read page 52 of the thread and it should be quite obvious.


----------



## purtman

M3 Pete said:


> read page 52 of the thread and it should be quite obvious.


I assumed a certain person, but when somebody uses the term "seriously complicating" ... that's stretching it.

If you really want to talk about complicating it, for the laymen out there who only see an array of numbers but don't have the software nor know where to find it, that really complicates things for them. It's a guess as to what the numbers mean.

Instead of coming off with an attitude and a holier-than-thou attitude (_"I don't usually play net.cop but these posts about BBCs and weird, stream-of-consciousness crap is burying tons of useful info that many people (including Tom, Don, Ken and me, among others) have been contributing over the past 6 weeks)."_), let's just throw the "back to topic" icon out there.


----------



## wilmot3

purtman said:


> I assumed a certain person, but when somebody uses the term "seriously complicating" ... that's stretching it.
> 
> If you really want to talk about complicating it, for the laymen out there who only see an array of numbers but don't have the software nor know where to find it, that really complicates things for them. It's a guess as to what the numbers mean.
> 
> Instead of coming off with an attitude and a holier-than-thou attitude (_"I don't usually play net.cop but these posts about BBCs and weird, stream-of-consciousness crap is burying tons of useful info that many people (including Tom, Don, Ken and me, among others) have been contributing over the past 6 weeks)."_), let's just throw the "back to topic" icon out there.


:backtotop Are we happy now!!!!!!
Some people need to calm down it is just HD for gods sakes


----------



## purtman

wilmot3 said:


> :backtotop Are we happy now!!!!!!
> Some people need to calm down it is just HD for gods sakes


I agree. My previous post wasn't intended to come across as being upset. But after re-reading it, I can see why I could be included in this group.


----------



## loudo

EaglePC said:


> obsessive.
> Who me;yea thank you
> 245 Hours been watching channel 499


How can you watch SD TV for so long? I would be having HD withdrawals. You may need an HD fix.


----------



## donshan

EaglePC said:


> obsessive.
> Who me;yea thank you
> 245 Hours been watching channel 499


Keep watching. My Guide now shows a Channel 499 listing change at 3AM PDT Saturday Aug 25 from "B-Band Converter Test Channel" to:

"To Be Announced"

Maybe something new to watch soon. Maybe an actual MPEG4 channel test?


----------



## n2deep2bn

donshan said:


> Keep watching. My Guide now shows a Channel 499 listing change at 3AM PDT Saturday Aug 25 from "B-Band Converter Test Channel" to:
> 
> "To Be Announced"
> 
> Maybe something new to watch soon. Maybe an actual MPEG4 channel test?


I've got the same thing. Maybe we will see some new HD channels tomorrow.


----------



## donshan

n2deep2bn said:


> I've got the same thing. Maybe we will see some new HD channels tomorrow.


I doubt it could be any more than some actual HD test material. And the date was Saturday 25th. They are still limited by the FCC STA from actual HD channels yet until D10 is in final position sometime after Sept 1.


----------



## syphix

donshan said:


> I doubt it could be any more than some actual HD test material. And the date was Saturday 25th. They are still limited by the FCC STA from actual HD channels yet until D10 is in final position sometime after Sept 1.


I show "To Be Announced" beginning on 499 at 5:00a CDT tomorrow morning...

...but you're right: 103 will not be turned on tomorrow. So, what gives? Someone just forget to enter guide data?


----------



## purtman

donshan said:


> I doubt it could be any more than some actual HD test material. And the date was Saturday 25th. They are still limited by the FCC STA from actual HD channels yet until D10 is in final position sometime after Sept 1.


Possibly a sneak preview. But I think 499 is reserved for testing.


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> Possibly a sneak preview. But I think 499 is reserved for testing.


 It would seem reasonable to me to test everyone's B-band converters and receiver with some sort of actual MPEG-4 material in the same format as D10 will send later. It would be a lot better test of customer's correct setup from dish to receiver to screen than what has been on 499. I know I would like to test my system on something real, even just a message and HD test pattern before the actual HD channels get here.

Edit: Since I don't get HD locals, as far as I know my HR20 has never seen a MPEG-4 input signal yet so its decoding has never been tested except on MPEG-2.


----------



## RAD

It's not MPEG4 that 499 is testing, it's testing the ability of the receiver to be able to tune to the Ka band that D10/D11 will be using. Since those sats aren't active yet there is no way to send a signal for testing.


----------



## donshan

RAD said:


> It's not MPEG4 that 499 is testing, it's testing the ability of the receiver to be able to tune to the Ka band that D10/D11 will be using. Since those sats aren't active yet there is no way to send a signal for testing.


 I understand that it couldn't come from D10 yet so a question. I now get two strong signals on 99(b) which I presume are Seattle/Spokane LIL. Could they use Spaceway 1 to send a MPEG-4 test signal mapped to 499 and do the same to other areas using the Spaceways as a short test?


----------



## lwilli201

donshan said:


> I understand that it couldn't come from D10 yet so a question. I now get two strong signals on 99(b) which I presume are Seattle/Spokane LIL. Could they use Spaceway 1 to send a MPEG-4 test signal mapped to 499 and do the same to other areas using the Spaceways as a short test?


No.


----------



## donshan

lwilli201 said:


> No.


Thanks, still learning a lot here!


----------



## Ken984

499 says TBA at 6am edt tomorrow morning on my guide...not that it means anything as far as D10 is concerned but, they could be changing the banner to something more useful.


----------



## Ed Campbell

I realize their images are always a bit behind; but, I just downloaded the "Sky" addition to Google Earth. Of course, the first thing I put into Search was DirecTV D10 - and got no result.

I'll have to email Google and see if they can show us our satellite locations in Google Sky - sometime or other.


----------



## PoitNarf

n2deep2bn said:


> I've got the same thing. Maybe we will see some new HD channels tomorrow.


Fat chance.


----------



## PoitNarf

Ed Campbell said:


> I realize their images are always a bit behind; but, I just downloaded the "Sky" addition to Google Earth. Of course, the first thing I put into Search was DirecTV D10 - and got no result.
> 
> I'll have to email Google and see if they can show us our satellite locations in Google Sky - sometime or other.


Does it show other sats?


----------



## RAD

donshan said:


> I understand that it couldn't come from D10 yet so a question. I now get two strong signals on 99(b) which I presume are Seattle/Spokane LIL. Could they use Spaceway 1 to send a MPEG-4 test signal mapped to 499 and do the same to other areas using the Spaceways as a short test?


IIRC, there are two different parts of the Ka band that are being used by SW1/2 and D10/11. SW1/2 don't require the use of the BBC's since they aren't using the same parts of the band that D10/11 will be using. Plus you'd need SW1/2 to do a CONUS beam and all they're doing is spotbeams.


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> 499 says TBA at 6am edt tomorrow morning on my guide...not that it means anything as far as D10 is concerned but, they could be changing the banner to something more useful.


Obviously they know you are the one tracking them and want to let you know FIRST!

Let us know what it says- even if just a Guide error, which still seems possible.

Curious that my Guide still says 3AM Sat. PDT, but I am used to being last in all things HDTV in this DMA!


----------



## kentuck1163

I'm showing signals - although low readings on several of the 103 transponders. Reading right now of 23, 29, and 17 on transponders 2, 4, and 6 respectively. Four others showing readings of "0".

Of course I know precious little about this stuff....


----------



## n2deep2bn

kentuck1163 said:


> I'm showing signals - although low readings on several of the 103 transponders. Reading right now of 23, 29, and 17 on transponders 2, 4, and 6 respectively. Four others showing readings of "0".
> 
> Of course I know precious little about this stuff....


That is normal


----------



## donshan

RAD said:


> IIRC, there are two different parts of the Ka band that are being used by SW1/2 and D10/11. SW1/2 don't require the use of the BBC's since they aren't using the same parts of the band that D10/11 will be using. Plus you'd need SW1/2 to do a CONUS beam and all they're doing is spotbeams.


My learning curve is still going up about how these satellites work thanks to you and the other experts here- I appreciate it. You and others have posted before about the SW1/2 spotbeams which is why I had the wild idea that they might somehow might be able use a spot beam to hit me with a LIL HD signal off 99b on 499 for a short while and then rotate to other spot beams in other markets if this "spare capacity" really exists on SW 1/2.

Beginner, lacking any real knowledge asks misinformed question!:grin:


----------



## Sixto

Sixto said:


> 103,000 views ... cool ... T minus 2 weeks ...


26,000 views in last 5 days ... about 5k per day ...


----------



## Smthkd

HD HD HD HD!!! Are we there yet? Man this is taking so long!


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> HD HD HD HD!!! Are we there yet? Man this is taking so long!


Will be cool when we start seeing channels light up ...


----------



## John4924

Sixto said:


> 26,000 views in last 5 days ... about 5k per day ...


See what you started? :lol:

Maybe you will get a prize from the moderators for being the originator of the post with the most views 

Any ideas from the posters here on a prize for sixto?


----------



## tgater

EaglePC said:


> obsessive.
> Who me;yea thank you
> 245 Hours been watching channel 499


I hope your not recording it. (1% Available)


----------



## Sixto

John4924 said:


> See what you started? :lol:
> 
> Maybe you will get a prize from the moderators for being the originator of the post with the most views
> 
> Any ideas from the posters here on a prize for sixto?


70-to-100 HD channels in the guide is prize enough.


----------



## EaglePC

:lol: 


tgater said:


> I hope your not recording it. (1% Available)


----------



## tgater

What's the Neilson rating for channel 499?


----------



## VeniceDre

I'm glad I don't subscribe to this thread!


----------



## John4924

Sixto said:


> 70-to-100 HD channels in the guide is prize enough.


...and it is one the rest of us can share real soon :joy:


----------



## mx6bfast

I turned to 499 and a message popped up saying "Calm down and keep waiting"


----------



## loudo

kentuck1163 said:


> I'm showing signals - although low readings on several of the 103 transponders. Reading right now of 23, 29, and 17 on transponders 2, 4, and 6 respectively. Four others showing readings of "0".
> 
> Of course I know precious little about this stuff....


I think it is transponder 17 is where 499 is.


----------



## P Smith

Still trashing the thread ?

:backtotop


----------



## EaglePC

Welcome back to DBSTalk.Com EaglePC! Please standby...

Click here if your browser does not automatically redirect you.


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> Welcome back to DBSTalk.Com EaglePC! Please standby...
> 
> Click here if your browser does not automatically redirect you.


Eagle man, we love you. You certainly seem to be one of the more dedicated forum members to D10 news/activity. But, maybe, just perhaps, you should limit posting in this thread to once an hour at most? Please? 

Anyway, I'll _try_ to keep this post on topic somewhat.

Anyone think that D* has some new TV spots lined up boasting that their big HD push is finally here? I'm just curious on how aggressive they'll be with advertising to convert people with other providers once D10 lights up.


----------



## purtman

I thought I saw a new ad and I believe I also saw a post somewhere else about new ads. In light of that whole Comcast suit, I don't know how much is the new campaign, how much is because of the suit, or how much is a combination of both. I would think a combination of both.


----------



## Ed Campbell

PoitNarf said:


> Does it show other sats?


Don't know if I'm asking the right question. Asked for a couple of oldies like Galaxy 5 > nada, as well.


----------



## VeniceDre

P Smith said:


> How it related to the topic "D10 Satellite - HD Testing Schedule / Press Releases / Location" ?!


I feel you man, I really think the mods should get a hold of this thread. It's gotten out of control this past week.

I know we're all as excited as that "Nintendo Kid" on Christmas but we should throw this stuff into other threads...

If I subscribed to this thread and kept coming back over here thinking someone posted some important info just to find all these random observations I would be getting tired of it...

But that's just me.


----------



## Tom Robertson

While this thread strays over a very wide latitude of topics they mostly relate to D10, new HD channels, and all the ancillary issues then returns specifically to D10, new HD channels, etc.  In other words, I'm letting it range widely over all the HD topics. (And BBCs are an HD topic that particularly pertain to D10.)

Please continue to keep the sidebars short and to HD topics (in other words we don't need to talk about EaglePC, as much as we love him.) 

And if you have any questions, feel free to PM me or another moderator. I'm more than happy to respond.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

Are We There Yet ?


----------



## gulfwarvet

EaglePC said:


> Are We There Yet ?


wasn't that a movie? :lol:

answer,,, close but no cigar


----------



## Ken_F

Since DirecTV evidently lit up some CONUS transponders on DirecTV-10....

Can anyone confirm whether they are using DVB-S2 with 8PSK? And if so, at what FEC?


----------



## syphix

Ken_F said:


> Since DirecTV evidently lit up some CONUS transponders on DirecTV-10....


They did??


----------



## EaglePC

They did??


----------



## Ken984

499 went back to the bbc test channel in my guide..no changes there
I assume that one of the first things to light up will be 499 as the 103b test channel.


----------



## EaglePC

nothing exciting today poof


----------



## chopperjc

Really, please explain how you know this for us amatures.


----------



## EaglePC

chopperjc help us here.
tell us what you know,that we don't know
do you know something ?


----------



## chopperjc

EaglePC said:


> chopperjc help us here.
> tell us what you know,that we don't know
> do you know something ?


I know nothing. I am the amature.

Originally Posted by Ken_F 
Since DirecTV evidently lit up some CONUS transponders on DirecTV-10....

I was asking Ken_F.


----------



## D*HR-20

I think he meant that they are testing the CONUS beams from the test location (which we don't see on our receivers) and just wanted to know what standard they are using for them.


----------



## tgater

Ken984 said:


> 499 went back to the bbc test channel in my guide..no changes there
> I assume that one of the first things to light up will be 499 as the 103b test channel.


You don't think they will use 495 and keep 499 as a BBC test?


----------



## cb7214

Ken_F said:


> Since DirecTV evidently lit up some CONUS transponders on DirecTV-10....
> 
> Can anyone confirm whether they are using DVB-S2 with 8PSK? And if so, at what FEC?


huh?


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> 499 went back to the bbc test channel in my guide..no changes there
> I assume that one of the first things to light up will be 499 as the 103b test channel.


My Guide still shows the change from BBC test channel to the TBA Sat. Aug 25 3AM PDT . However that TBA continues for days out into the future so does not mean something will immediately appear Aug 25. Maybe just update back to BBC Test channel like yours.


----------



## mx6bfast

With as many runs Texas scored last night they coulda ran to the sat and opened it up.


----------



## Ken984

If they make 499 the 103b test channel then your b band converters would have to be working so there would be no need for a channel just for bbc. I think that is a temp thing since there was nothing there transmitting a ka-lo signal to test with. Also I think that once you get a swm module you don't need the bbc at all.


----------



## LameLefty

tgater said:


> You don't think they will use 495 and keep 499 as a BBC test?


A "true" BBC test (on whatever channel, 499 or 495 or whatever), will give you an actual page that says "Your B-Band Converter is connected" or something, rather than a Searching for Satellite Signal error. You get an error now if the BBC works because there IS no Ka-low (the "B-Band") signal at all. If the BBC isn't working or not connected, the Ka-high signal passes through unblocked - THAT signal is the static splash page that says your BBC is not connected. Once they "turn on" a true test page using a Ka-low band transmission from D10, the test will be a lot more comprehensible to people.


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> A "true" BBC test (on whatever channel, 499 or 495 or whatever), will give you an actual page that says "Your B-Band Converter is connected" or something, rather than a Searching for Satellite Signal error. You get an error now if the BBC works because there IS no Ka-low (the "B-Band") signal at all. If the BBC isn't working or not connected, the Ka-high signal passes through unblocked - THAT signal is the static splash page that says your BBC is not connected. Once they "turn on" a true test page using a Ka-low band transmission from D10, the test will be a lot more comprehensible to people.


I posted above about how I would like a true test HD signal with HD video on 499 to test everything including the MPEG-4 decoding. Is D10's present "testing slot" close enough to 103 W to be able to hit our dishes with a test signal if they wanted to do it? It would seem to me that while actual HD channels can't begin until they follow the FCC rules ( in the STA, Sept 1 etc.), "Testing" at 102.6 could legally include a 499 channel test of some kind on customer's receivers . Or what am I missing ( as I often do!)


----------



## LameLefty

Sure, a CONUS beam would have no trouble. The difference between 102.6 and 102.775 is 0.175, or about 80 miles, at a distance of 22,236 miles (plus or minus). The azimuth difference between those two is tiny. No problem configuring the beam width or aiming. Spot beams are the ones that are hard to fine tune and have to be re-aimed when sats move slots much. Since most of D10 will be CONUS (at least at first anyway - who knows later), I wouldn't think it would be much trouble from a technical perspective.

I haven't read the FCC filings or the CFRs (Code of Federal Regulations) governing the allowable scope of "test" activities, however.


----------



## P Smith

For those tests at STA position customer's intervention doesn't required.


----------



## trgonz

I have been reading this thread since it was created, and daily since. I think it is time to summarize as to where we are at today.

It might be a good idea to keep this summary current.

1.	July 6: D10 launched
2.	July 7: D10 communicating with Mission Control.
3.	July 7 to ~August 16: D10 moved into test position 102.6x
4.	August 16: FCC Filing stating “DIRECTV 10 is now undergoing in-orbit testing at the 102.6° W.L. orbital location”, confirming testing is underway. FCC Filing also states “DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775° W.L. on or about September 1.”.
5.	August 19: LyngSat, D10 arrival announcement
6. August 20: D* places B-Band Converter test channels and video instructions on CH- 77, 92, and 499 (499 still active). Having us users check that we have the proper equipment and converters to receive the new HD content from D10.


Corrections and comments welcome….


----------



## bobnielsen

Channels 77 and 92 are gone, as is the pushed video from my playlist.


----------



## moonman

bobnielsen said:


> Channels 77 and 92 are gone, as is the pushed video from my playlist.


------------
Can still be found at ch, 510.


----------



## ez2logon

trgonz: Thank you for the constructive post. I think it would be great if the mods would "sticky" the update to a locked thread so that those of us who want a quick update can avoid the chat-room antics on this current thread. And likewise, those who enjoy the banter can continue...


----------



## PoitNarf

Ken984 said:


> Also I think that once you get a swm module you don't need the bbc at all.


Correct.


----------



## oakwcj

The Lyngsat "arrival" notice is inaccurate. D10 is in its testing location, not at 102.8.


----------



## LameLefty

Lyngsat is just a repository of info, no more or less accurate than here really. Don't use that info as definitive.


----------



## uncrules

moonman said:


> ------------
> Can still be found at ch, 510.


I don't see it on 510. I'm not using a custom channel list either. I'm using all channels.


----------



## moonman

uncrules said:


> I don't see it on 510. I'm not using a custom channel list either. I'm using all channels.


Hummmmmm...most curious....I am using a MPEG2 only receiver(RCA DTC-100)
I wonder if only MPEG2 only equip. is "allowed" to receive it?? BTW if you are
thinking that the faux mention of a HR-21 has anything to do with this, you
would be wrong, as the video is the same "old" one that use to be running.
If others can "see" this channel(510) please post results in this thread?
Thanks, moonman


----------



## Sixto

trgonz said:


> It might be a good idea to keep this summary current.


I've been keeping the 1st post in this thread current and will continue to so.

Will add any new info from the quoted post.


----------



## Sixto

ez2logon said:


> trgonz: Thank you for the constructive post. I think it would be great if the mods would "sticky" the update to a locked thread so that those of us who want a quick update can avoid the chat-room antics on this current thread. And likewise, those who enjoy the banter can continue...


1st post being updated ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=995893&postcount=1


----------



## LameLefty

Sixto said:


> 1st post being updated ... http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=995893&postcount=1


Good job with the update! :up:


----------



## syphix

So, was DirecTV's letter #3 (of 8/16/07) ever _approved_ by the FCC??


----------



## PoitNarf

syphix said:


> So, was DirecTV's letter #3 (of 8/16/07) ever _approved_ by the FCC??


I'm sure we'll find out in ~ 9 days


----------



## Sixto

syphix said:


> So, was DirecTV's letter #3 (of 8/16/07) ever _approved_ by the FCC??


We've not seen any official notice but seems very probable.

Also just modified the first post to make it clear that there were two FCC letters and one "grant of authority". That's all we've found officially.

Need some more detective work to see if there are any other "official" postings anywhere in FCC database.


----------



## Dolly

uncrules said:


> I don't see it on 510. I'm not using a custom channel list either. I'm using all channels.


Same here. The video is gone. When I go to any of the channels it used to be on the guide just says channel not available. I guess D figures if you haven't gotten the message by now you aren't watching D much anyway :lol:


----------



## John4924

Sixto said:
 

> We've not seen any official notice but seems very probable.
> 
> Also just modified the first post to make it clear that there were two FCC letters and one "grant of authority". That's all we've found officially.
> 
> Need some more detective work to see if there are any other "official" postings anywhere in FCC database.


I have looked through the "Daily Digest" on the FCC website, and I cannot find anything related to granting of Special Temporary Authority for D*. Maybe someone more familiar with the fcc website can take a peak? Or let some of us know where to go and look? 

Cheers,
John


----------



## harsh

John4924 said:


> Maybe someone more familiar with the fcc website can take a peak?


The FCC must have taken advanced lessons from Microsoft on how to hide information.


----------



## EaglePC

I would take 70 HD Test Patterns
Sat is @ 102.59


----------



## Mikey

Sixto said:


> We've not seen any official notice but seems very probable.
> 
> Also just modified the first post to make it clear that there were two FCC letters and one "grant of authority". That's all we've found officially.
> 
> Need some more detective work to see if there are any other "official" postings anywhere in FCC database.


It took the FCC more than a month to grant authority for the June 7th STA. I wouldn't expect the FCC to act on the August 16th STA in less than a week. Hopefully, if all the ducks are lined up, the FCC will act before September 1st.


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> I have looked through the "Daily Digest" on the FCC website, and I cannot find anything related to granting of Special Temporary Authority for D*. Maybe someone more familiar with the fcc website can take a peak? Or let some of us know where to go and look?
> 
> Cheers,
> John


I also searched the Daily Digests for reports of the same file names and types that had the earlier July 27 STA approval and came up empty as of today's issue. 
If others want to join the searching in Daily Digests they are linked at:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Digest/2007/dd2007.html

I was looking for files similar to the July 27 one which looks like this, but I was looking for new dates and numbers on the "Report No: SAT-xxxxx:



> Report No: SAT-00460 Released: 07/27/2007. POLICY BRANCH INFORMATION ACTIONS TAKEN. (DA No. 07-3445). IB. Contact: (202) 418-0719; TTY: (202) 418-2555 DA-07-3445A1.pdf DA-07-3445A1.txt


A search of DA-07-3445A1.txt for "DirecTV" was successful. There have been a number of "Report No. SAT-xxxxx posted since July 27. but nothing was found on DirecTV in any of the DA-07-xxxxxx.txt files posted that I searched.


----------



## JLF

fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr030b.hts?set=

callsign: S2641


----------



## Mikey

This is an FCC search from today for STA info from Directv since 8/15/2007. Only one shows up, and that's the 8/16/2007 STA application (note that the date is contained in the file number). When the FCC takes action on it, there will be a "grant of authority" associated with the STA application.



Code:


SAT-STA-20070816-00115	E	DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC	S2641	 	 	-	Filed - payment received


----------



## cforrest

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=585633


----------



## Sixto

donshan said:


> I also searched the Daily Digests for reports of the same file names and types


Looks like the "SAT-" FCC digest updates are regular every Friday.

Will look tomorrow.


----------



## lwilli201

JLF said:


> fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr030b.hts?set=
> 
> callsign: S2641


:welcome_s :balloons: :welcome_s

Welcome to DBSTalk


----------



## lwilli201

cforrest said:


> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=585633


Is the attachment available online?


----------



## EaglePC

102.58 it went back a .1 no HD yet

anybody do the 1,403 post


----------



## EaglePC

102.56

why is the sat going in reverse

http://www.n2yo.com


----------



## Tom Robertson

EaglePC said:


> 102.56
> 
> why is the sat going in reverse
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com


I'm thinking it still is within its normal drift range of +/- .05°.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## hdtvfan0001

Tom Robertson said:


> I'm thinking it still is within its normal drift range of +/- .05°.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Maybe they're practicing how to do parallel parking. 

Probably a fine tune location exercise...must be getting very close.


----------



## VeniceDre

Riddle me this people... I was under the impression that CH 499 is looking for transponder 17 off the new SAT D10. That's why we get "Searching for Signal."

Is this correct?


----------



## PoitNarf

VeniceDre said:


> Riddle me this people... I was under the impression that CH 499 is looking for transponder 17 off the new SAT D10. That's why we get "Searching for Signal."
> 
> Is this correct?


It's probably looking for some sort of signal from D10. Whether that is indeed something off of TP 17 remains to be seen.


----------



## computersecguy

It would seem that you have stumbled on to something... But for those of use with H20's that still seem to show N/A for all transponders, or above 17 if there are no spot beams... Why wouldn't it at least show 0? I see that at least on my receiver, starting at 4am mdt, 499 shows tba...


----------



## computersecguy

computersecguy said:


> It would seem that you have stumbled on to something... But for those of use with H20's that still seem to show N/A for all transponders, or above 17 if there are no spot beams... Why wouldn't it at least show 0? I see that at least on my receiver, starting at 4am mdt, 499 shows tba...


oh and I should mention even with everything else plus 0x202a software I still get a blank screen... no searching for signal... but d* tells me all is well... h20-100...


----------



## dragonbait

PoitNarf said:


> It's probably looking for some sort of signal from D10. Whether that is indeed something off of TP 17 remains to be seen.


It is definitely tp 17. Take the BBCs off and tp 17 has a reading and you get 499 from the Spaceway sat. Put the BBCs on and you should get 0 for tp 17 and 499 should say searching.

I guess you could also say that tp 17 is CONUS.


----------



## P Smith

dragonbait said:


> It is definitely tp 17. Take the BBCs off and *tp 17 has a reading and you get 499 from the Spaceway sat.* Put the BBCs on and you should get 0 for tp 17 and 499 should say searching.
> 
> I guess you could also say that tp 17 is CONUS.


Why need to look at other sat, if the ch [499] exist on tp17 on EXISTING SW sat ?!
Twisted logic?


----------



## EaglePC

ok according to http://www.n2yo.com

the sat is locked @ 102.8


----------



## Smthkd

You mean 102.58 right!!?


----------



## EaglePC

Smthkd said:


> You mean 102.58 right!!?


yes so we need .2 to make 102.6 right


----------



## Tom Robertson

dragonbait said:


> It is definitely tp 17. Take the BBCs off and tp 17 has a reading and you get 499 from the Spaceway sat. Put the BBCs on and you should get 0 for tp 17 and 499 should say searching.
> 
> I guess you could also say that tp 17 is CONUS.


Actually, IIRC the BBC boosts the frequency from the 250-750MHz range up to the 950-1450MHz range. If so, when we are seeing the "Your BBCs are missing" screen, that would be from 110°/119° not from 103°. Yes the HR20 thinks the transponder is a CONUS transponder at 103°, but if there really were such, we wouldn't need to see a "771 Searching for Signal" as a test passed.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

Tom 
thanks
You are a very smart Man


----------



## purtman

EaglePC said:


> yes so we need .2 to make 102.6 right


.02. Eagles have great eyes but apparently not so good math skills.


----------



## wilmot3

new data:

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07236.24078469 -.00000103 00000-0 10000-3 0 631
2 31862 000.1148 289.0178 0000131 187.5983 199.6111 01.00273385 497


----------



## wilmot3

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-24 05:46:43
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination	0.115
RA of A. Node	289.018
Eccentricity	0.0000131
Argument of Perigee	187.598
Revs per day	1.00273385
Period	23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	199.611
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	63 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## LameLefty

EaglePC said:


> ok according to http://www.n2yo.com
> 
> the sat is locked @ 102.8


Please at least SCAN the thread before posting. Lyngsat is NOT some end-all, be-all answer. It's just another website collecting info and posting it for the world to see, just like this one. In this case, Lyngsat is wrong.

And as for why the various tracking sites (like n2yo) are giving different info and the sat is in "reverse" - read the thread.. This has all been gone over in great detail. n2y0 does not update their TLE's more than once a day and often misses the change for a few hours. And the sat is not "in reverse", it's just got an orbital period that is not quite exactly the same as earth's rotational period, so it appears to move a little forward or a little backward - that's why comsats carry fuel - to adjust their orbits as necessary to stay as close to position as possible.


----------



## upnorth

EaglePC said:


> yes so we need .2 to make 102.6 right


What is the big deal about 102.6 that is where it is at now for testing give or take .02.
The big move is when it starts it's slow move towards 102.775 and chances are that will not happen untill Sept 1st.


----------



## Sixto

The weekly FCC "SAT" filing just posted:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Digest/2007/dd070824.html

Nothing new. SAT-00468 only item and nothing with D10.


----------



## 1948GG

I (along with many) have been following this thread, and thought it was about time to chuck in my 2cents on the following subject of 'where will the new signals start appearing?'.

For those who don't remember, I took out my log sheets (OMG, somebody actually _wrote_ down what had happend previously?), and the 'idea' that any signal level would be displayed with the current s/w load (on either the H20 or HR20) is erroneous; perhaps others have noticed this but I just skimed through the thread and don't think anyone brought up the following.

The Ka network designations on the DirecTV satellite system seem to be (again, from the original s/w loads on both the H20/HR20) were:

Net 10 (Ka-Lo/99 sat)
Net 11 (Ka-Hi/99 sat)

Net 14 (Ka-Hi/103 sat)
Net 15 (Ka-Lo/103 sat)

Remember, that frequency wise, both the Ka Lo and High bands are (approximately) equal in bandwidth to the original Ku/DBS band (500Mhz wide), so if they were to 'display' the transponders in the 'same' format, it would be (as originally displayed in those receivers) as a 'block' of 32 transponders across 4 pages of signal readings.

When this was 'updated' about 4 months ago, the Ka-Lo pages were removed, and the display we have today is there, only two pages of the Spaceway 99/103 sats, with a somewhat odd designation of 99(b) and 103(a). Doubtful as to the a/b, as I think I remember (but can't find the reference to it on the web) the Spaceways transponders are Ka-Hi only.

So, the only way any activity is going to be 'seen' by anyone until a new s/w load is dropped in, is by either a wide-band receiver or better yet, a spectrum analyzer attached to a Ka LNB and dish. I've been trying to get a 'hint' of anything with my wacky 'self-made' dish and a Ku/Ka LNB (ripped off from a 'spare' AT9 dish assembly) but should get a new 'Slimline' Au9 and mount any day now.

Just can't keep a old signals intel guy down!  Anyway, those are my thoughts, don't know if anyone else thinks they may be in the ballpark or WAY out in left field.


----------



## LameLefty

> The Ka network designations on the DirecTV satellite system seem to be (again, from the original s/w loads on both the H20/HR20) were:
> 
> Net 10 (Ka-Lo/99 sat)
> Net 11 (Ka-Hi/99 sat)
> 
> Net 14 (Ka-Hi/103 sat)
> Net 15 (Ka-Lo/103 sat)


I don't understand that terminology. Could you explain please? I've been using the HR20 for over 10 months (since s/w version 0xE3) and those designations haven't been used during that time.


----------



## Tetonmtnbiker

Quote from 1948gg..."...or better yet, a spectrum analyzer attached to a Ka LNB and dish. I've been trying to get a 'hint' of anything with my wacky 'self-made' dish and a Ku/Ka LNB (ripped off from a 'spare' AT9 dish assembly)..."

1948gg, If you are doing this you are the king of the nerds and you have my allegiance  Let us know if you "see" anything.


Long time lurker on this thread. Thanks Lefty, sixto and ken for all of your insight!


----------



## 1948GG

LameLefty said:


> I don't understand that terminology. Could you explain please? I've been using the HR20 for over 10 months (since s/w version 0xE3) and those designations haven't been used during that time.


I'm just copying from my 'notes'; the 'net' designations were in the signal strength screens as far back as when I first got an H20 (non-DVR) receiver, in Feb06 (0x100C s/w?), and the same format (again in the signal strength screens) on the HR20 (0xbe?). When folks started complaining that they were seeing 'nothing but zeros' they made a change in one of the s/w d/l's and *poof* the extra data disappeared, and the ability to go to the individual transponders (because they weren't N/A like they are now). And, you get at least one reading (your Ka/Mpeg4 locals, if any), calming the populace.

One could actually still find the 'active' transponders then, they just weren't in the 'basic' 32, but up in the 50's (weird), but actually kinda makes some sense, as the KaLo and KaHi bands together would equal 64 transponders.

But the way it is now, you can't select a transponder that's 'N/A' to select individually and get a reading.


----------



## LameLefty

Ah, okay. Got it now. That was in the early BC days of the H20/HR20. I didn't get mine until the Dark Ages. 

So tell us more about your home-made McGyver'd-up sigint equipment.


----------



## 1948GG

Tetonmtnbiker said:


> 1948gg, If you are doing this you are the king of the nerds and you have my allegiance  Let us know if you "see" anything


No, just spent too many years, like I said, in the signals intel biz. I actually put things off a bit too long (a hazard of being retired!), as I thought my bashed together 18" dish w/ the Ka/Ku LNB would work, but although I managed to get the LNB assembly mounted kinda okay, and go got sigs off 101/Ku, nada on the Ka side no matter how much I fooled with it (and I have HOT Ka locals).

So I ordered up a Slimline dish (actually two, an extra LNB assembly to 'play around' with) and mount, which should all come together.....

ABOUT the time the sat gets really active, the end of next week! Prior Planning Prevents P.... Oh well, the equipment is reusable with my RV setup, need to start upgrading it to HD (that's how I 'justify' all this nonsense!). Now for the LCD HD display for the RV....


----------



## oakwcj

Latest TLE from Space Track:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07235.43138940 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00630
2 31862 000.1167 288.7692 0000138 200.7573 254.5159 01.00273478000491

I wouldn't be able to live with such a low eccentricity level. 

Once D10 is in its "final" GSO, about how often will the orbit need to be tweaked?


----------



## Ken984

That TLE made it even farther to the East than the last set...still very small differences though. I would imagine there are a lot of adjustments going on right now though.

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5839° W
Lat	0.0853° S
Alt (km)	35 785.390
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	11h 47m 03s
Decl	-5° 21' 42"
Range (km)	37 012.543
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	61.4° (44)
TA	61.4°
Orbit #	50


----------



## Halo

oakwcj said:


> Once D10 is in its "final" GSO, about how often will the orbit need to be tweaked?


Everyday for about 30 minutes. XIPS are really low thrust.


----------



## wilmot3

New TLE

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07235.43138940 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00630
2 31862 000.1167 288.7692 0000138 200.7573 254.5159 01.00273478000491


----------



## wilmot3

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-23 10:21:12
Orbit # at Epoch	49
Inclination	0.117
RA of A. Node	288.769
Eccentricity	0.0000138
Argument of Perigee	200.757
Revs per day	1.00273478
Period	23h 56m 04s (1436.7 min)
Semi-major axis	42 164 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	254.516
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0063 / 2 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## JohnH

Still drifting east a little and inclined a little:

--------------------------inclination--azimuth----height(km)
2007 Aug 25 09:10:58 0.0361 N 102.5809 W 35785.219 
2007 Aug 25 10:10:58 0.0138 N 102.5803 W 35785.128 
2007 Aug 25 11:10:58 0.0093 S 102.5796 W 35785.071 
2007 Aug 25 12:10:58 0.0317 S 102.5790 W 35785.053 
2007 Aug 25 13:10:58 0.0519 S 102.5783 W 35785.074 
2007 Aug 25 14:10:58 0.0684 S 102.5777 W 35785.133 
2007 Aug 25 15:10:58 0.0802 S 102.5771 W 35785.227 
2007 Aug 25 16:10:58 0.0863 S 102.5765 W 35785.348 
2007 Aug 25 17:10:58 0.0865 S 102.5761 W 35785.489 
2007 Aug 25 18:10:58 0.0808 S 102.5758 W 35785.640 
2007 Aug 25 19:10:58 0.0694 S 102.5756 W 35785.790 
2007 Aug 25 20:10:58 0.0534 S 102.5755 W 35785.930 
2007 Aug 25 21:10:58 0.0337 S 102.5755 W 35786.049 
2007 Aug 25 22:10:58 0.0117 S 102.5755 W 35786.140 
2007 Aug 25 23:10:58 0.0110 N 102.5757 W 35786.196 
2007 Aug 26 00:10:58 0.0329 N 102.5758 W 35786.214 
2007 Aug 26 01:10:58 0.0524 N 102.5760 W 35786.192 
2007 Aug 26 02:10:58 0.0682 N 102.5761 W 35786.132 
2007 Aug 26 03:10:58 0.0793 N 102.5762 W 35786.038 
2007 Aug 26 04:10:58 0.0849 N 102.5762 W 35785.917 
2007 Aug 26 05:10:58 0.0846 N 102.5760 W 35785.776 
2007 Aug 26 06:10:58 0.0784 N 102.5758 W 35785.626 
2007 Aug 26 07:10:58 0.0669 N 102.5755 W 35785.477 
2007 Aug 26 08:10:58 0.0507 N 102.5751 W 35785.339 
2007 Aug 26 09:10:58 0.0312 N 102.5746 W 35785.221


----------



## LameLefty

wilmot3 said:


> New TLE
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07235.43138940 -.00000101 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00630
> 2 31862 000.1167 288.7692 0000138 200.7573 254.5159 01.00273478000491


That was posted last night. Everyone, PLEASE read the previous posts since you last visited the thread. It would save everyone a lot of confusion.


----------



## oakwcj

Halo said:


> Everyday for about 30 minutes. XIPS are really low thrust.


Thanks. Boeing has a good description of the xenon ion propulsion system here. "Station-keeping," the small orbital adjustments necessary to keep a satellite in GSO, are performed automatically by the XIPS system.


----------



## oakwcj

Newest TLE:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07236.24078469 -.00000103 00000-0 10000-3 0 631
2 31862 000.1148 289.0178 0000131 187.5983 199.6111 01.00273385 497


----------



## Ken984

oakwcj said:


> Newest TLE:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07236.24078469 -.00000103 00000-0 10000-3 0 631
> 2 31862 000.1148 289.0178 0000131 187.5983 199.6111 01.00273385 497


Oak are you sure thats new? I am not home now so I can't compare directly but it looks like its an older set.


----------



## oakwcj

Ken984 said:


> Oak are you sure thats new? I am not home now so I can't compare directly but it looks like its an older set.


As sure as I can be. It's the one I just pulled from space-track.org.


----------



## wilmot3

Ken984 said:


> Oak are you sure thats new? I am not home now so I can't compare directly but it looks like its an older set.


Thats newer then what i got this morning and caute he** for posting what i got


----------



## Ken984

Ok, the numbers are just very close to what it was at a set or 2 back...guess when it gets this close to "home" they will fluctuate. Its almost there...


----------



## donshan

This is an update about what is happening with Ch 499 in my Guide. My earlier post a few days ago showed the Ch 499 Guide listing changing form B Band converter Test etc. to "To Be Announced" at 3 AM PDT today ( Aug 25)

Link to earlier discussion:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1062367&postcount=1367

I checked this morning and the TBA on 499 had changed back to "B band converter test channel" , but for only 24 hours. The new "To Be Announced" just moved forward one day to Sunday Aug 26 at 3 AM PDT.

Seems to me this Guide listing is being actively managed and is not just a simple Guide error. I am still expecting some sort of test message to appear here on 499 sometime "TBA" as they say. I will check to see if it changes again tomorrow .


----------



## harsh

LameLefty said:


> That was posted last night. Everyone, PLEASE read the previous posts since you last visited the thread. It would save everyone a lot of confusion.


So that readers can distinguish one TLE from another, the third chunk of data on first line is the "epoch time" of the projection.

The first two digits are the last two digits of the year (2007)

The next three digits are the day of the year (August 25 = day 237)

From the decimal point on is the fraction of a day relative to UTC/GMT/Zulu.

Using oakwcj's recent post as an example:


oakwcj said:


> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07236.24078469 -.00000103 00000-0 10000-3 0 631
> 2 31862 000.1148 289.0178 0000131 187.5983 199.6111 01.00273385 497


The epoch time is 07236.24078469

Year = 2007
Day = 236 (August 24th)
Hour = 5:46:44 UTC


----------



## oenophile

harsh said:


> So that readers can distinguish one TLE from another, the third chunk of data on first line is the "epoch time" of the projection.


That was a helpful post, thanks. I'd never heard of epoch time.

Here are a couple of links that I think are helpful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time [describes it in detail in wikipedia]
http://www.esqsoft.com/javascript_examples/date-to-epoch.htm [date/epoch time converter]


----------



## James Long

Pardon the interruption ...

Many recent posts moved to another thread for HD Anticipation -
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=96029

For the benefit of the people following the tech side of D10 please keep this thread on topic for where the satellite is and any signals received from that location. Discussion of what D10 will bring to D*'s service are better off in another thread.

Thanks for your cooperation!

:backtotop


----------



## PoitNarf

Thank you James!!!!


----------



## petergaryr

James Long said:


> Pardon the interruption ...
> 
> Many recent posts moved to another thread for HD Anticipation -
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=96029
> 
> For the benefit of the people following the tech side of D10 please keep this thread on topic for where the satellite is and any signals received from that location. Discussion of what D10 will bring to D*'s service are better off in another thread.
> 
> Thanks for your cooperation!
> 
> :backtotop


Excellent move. Thanks!


----------



## oakwcj

New TLE:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07237.52821894 -.00000105 00000-0 10000-3 0 644
2 31862 000.1117 289.3941 0000096 280.2119 211.3710 01.00273188 517


----------



## LameLefty

Current position with that elset is 102.5827 W


----------



## Ken984

It appears its moving back to the West now...maybe headed to final position, i hope. 
I guess its not moving West, or its a difference between mine and Lefty's programs again, mine had it at 102.5831 earlier but now its at 102.5827.


----------



## P Smith

As you can see on the spectrograms taken from D* triple LNBF, signal on tpns 103W KA-Hi 1650-2150 MHz doesn't changed yet:
[midddle freq = 1750 MHz]


----------



## PoitNarf

P Smith said:


> As you can see on the spectrograms taken from D* triple LNBF, signal on tpns 103W KA-Hi 1650-2150 MHz doesn't changed yet:
> [midddle freq = 1750 MHz]


Curious stuff Smith


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> As you can see on the spectrograms taken from D* triple LNBF, signal on tpns 103W KA-Hi 1650-2150 MHz doesn't changed yet:
> [midddle freq = 1750 MHz]


But aren't we now looking for signals on Ka-lo, 250-750MHz? That is what should be coming from D10.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

I did check Ka-Lo [250-750 MHz] - there are a lot of odd/even tpns, but I found ( by blocking eyelets on the LNBF) it coming from 99W.


----------



## bobnielsen

P Smith said:


> I did check Ka-Lo [250-750 MHz] - there are a lot of odd/even tpns, but I found ( by blocking eyelets on the LNBF) it coming from 99W.


Huh? What would be coming from 99 at those frequencies (to be used by D11)?


----------



## P Smith

Actually I don't remember how Ka-Hi/Lo related to the freq ranges. Has been posted ?

Also if someone knows how to control BBC ? By default it doesn't convert 250-750 to 1650-2150 MHz.


----------



## 1948GG

P Smith said:


> I did check Ka-Lo [250-750 MHz] - there are a lot of odd/even tpns, but I found ( by blocking eyelets on the LNBF) it coming from 99W.


To do a 'sanity check' on which Ka feed scaler you are blocking (99 vrs. 103), take a look at your receiver signal levels w/o blocking (depending on your location you should have at least one reading on each Ka sat), then block the one that you 'know' your HD locals are on (the 'hot' one >90). Re-check the reading on the receiver. Should of course now be 0, and your HD locals are "searching for...."

That will check which scaler/feehorn is which. You may have the geometry 'fuggered' out in reverse, and the signals you are seeing at 250-750 are from 103. At least, do the 'sanity check' to confirm you know the 'left from right'. 

Isn't that scaler 'cute'? Jeez, I _knew_ that cellphone camera was good for _something!_


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Actually I don't remember how Ka-Hi/Lo related to the freq ranges. Has been posted ?
> 
> Also if someone knows how to control BBC ? By default it doesn't convert 250-750 to 1650-2150 MHz.


The stack plan for Ka-hi/lo:
Output IF Frequencies
Ka-Lo: 250 - 750 MHz (right on top of OTA)
Ku: 950 - 1450 MHz
Ka-Hi: 1650 - 2150 MHz

Stack Plan - 18V, 22khz (even transponders)
Ka-Lo, 103°LHCP
Ku, 110°/119°LHCP
Ka-Hi, 103°LHCP

Stack Plan - 14V, 22khz (odd transponders)
Ka-Lo, 103°RHCP
Ku, 119°RHCP
Ka-Hi, 103°RHCP

Stack Plan -18V, no tone (even transponders)
Ka-Lo, 99°LHCP
Ku, 101°LHCP
Ka-Hi, 99°LHCP

Stack Plan - 14V, no tone (odd transponders)
Ka-Lo, 99°RHCP
Ku, 101°RHCP
Ka-Hi, 99°RHCP

As for controlling BBC, I think but am not certain, that it responds to Diseqc controls, bursts of the 22khz tone.

HTH,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Ah, I recall the table from WB68 brochure.

Is there more info ? I'd like to know those tpn## and freqs for Lo/Hi ranges. Then measuring freq on spectrum anayzer I would be certain.

What is the difference in parts of Ka 99W for the example:
Stack Plan - 14V, no tone (odd transponders)
Ka-Lo, 99°RHCP - _which odd tpns _?
Ku, 101°RHCP - we knows there are tpn1,3,5...31
Ka-Hi, 99°RHCP - _which odd tpns _?


----------



## Tom Robertson

P Smith said:


> Ah, I recall the table from WB68 brochure.
> 
> Is there more info ? I'd like to know those tpn## and freqs for Lo/Hi ranges. Then measuring freq on spectrum anayzer I would be certain.
> 
> What is the difference in parts of Ka 99W for the example:
> Stack Plan - 14V, no tone (odd transponders)
> Ka-Lo, 99°RHCP - _which odd tpns _?
> Ku, 101°RHCP - we knows there are tpn1,3,5...31
> Ka-Hi, 99°RHCP - _which odd tpns _?


My guess is that TPs 1-8 are hi and 9-32 are lo. I know that the S1 TPs 62.5MHz wide right now.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## P Smith

Tom Robertson said:


> My guess is that TPs 1-8 are hi and 9-32 are lo. I know that the S1 TPs 62.5MHz wide right now.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


As you can see some of them on my spectrograms.


----------



## oakwcj

Newest TLE:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07238.45074503 -.00000107 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00657
2 31862 000.1095 289.6916 0000097 286.6845 177.6234 01.00273088000529

Inclination is down to .109. Eccentricity is virtually non-existent. I guess we should see some westward drift starting in about five days.


----------



## oakwcj

Replying to myself, that one is so two hours ago. There's a newer elset now:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07239.25755394 -.00000108 00000-0 10000-3 0 651
2 31862 000.1085 290.3397 0000214 320.3525 074.5551 01.00272970 528


----------



## texasbrit

Tom Robertson said:


> As for controlling BBC, I think but am not certain, that it responds to Diseqc controls, bursts of the 22khz tone.
> 
> HTH,
> Tom


Yes, the BBC is controlled by a simplified Diseqc-like control signal...


----------



## Ken984

Current position with the new set.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5793° W
Lat	0.0731° S
Alt (km)	35 785.650
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	11h 09m 16s
Decl	-5° 20' 52"
Range (km)	37 011.898
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	277.9° (197)
TA	277.9°
Orbit #	52
Mag (illum)	? (2%)
Constellation	Leo

Once I see it move one way or the other I will post which direction its headed. Still headed East, although its moving a bit slower now than it was.


----------



## bakers12

Ken984 said:


> Once I see it move one way or the other I will post which direction its headed. Still headed East, although its moving a bit slower now than it was.


It doesn't really matter if it moves a little bit. Parking orbit means that it can move plus-or-minus .05 degree. It's been parked for a while.


----------



## P Smith

texasbrit said:


> Yes, the BBC is controlled by a simplified Diseqc-like control signal...


Please post details or a link to technical description.


----------



## markrubi

Ken984 said:


> Current position with the new set.
> 
> 1DIRECTV10
> Lon 102.5793° W
> Lat 0.0731° S
> Alt (km) 35 785.650
> Azm 196.1°
> Elv 51.0°
> RA 11h 09m 16s
> Decl -5° 20' 52"
> Range (km) 37 011.898
> RRt (km/s) 0.000
> Vel (km/s) 3.075
> Direction Descending
> Eclipse No
> MA (phase) 277.9° (197)
> TA 277.9°
> Orbit # 52
> Mag (illum) ? (2%)
> Constellation Leo
> 
> What will the final resting spot be at?


----------



## LameLefty

The original FCC approval was for 102.8 W, but DirecTV has requested authority to operate at 102.775 instead - I don't know if that request has been granted or not. From our perspective, it makes very little difference. At GSO altitude, that's a difference of like 11 or 12 miles - the tiniest fraction of a degree's difference in azimuth from the surface.


----------



## Smthkd

we are getting closer to that 200k number!!!


----------



## rock819

Well i guess its safe to say with the new DOD beta that most of the attention on the new HD is on the back burner for now


----------



## donshan

rock819 said:


> Well i guess its safe to say with the new DOD beta that most of the attention on the new HD is on the back burner for now


Not me! I am putting every new TLE update into my "The Sky" software that gives me data very close to Ken's Longitude positions. Some day soon we will see a real move towards 102.775 W.


----------



## Ken984

Using the tle from yesterday it does appear that its moving back to the west now...according to my software the latest position is 102.5750. Could be in its final move...keep your fingers crossed!


----------



## oakwcj

Ken984 said:


> Using the tle from yesterday it does appear that its moving back to the west now...according to my software the latest position is 102.5750. Could be in its final move...keep your fingers crossed!


Uncross your fingers. According to Orbitron's prediction function, the current orbit will put D10 at 102.5693 tomorrow at 5:00 AM EDT, before it begins to head slightly West again. I don't think we'll see a significant change until the weekend, although there will almost certainly continue to be minor adjustments before then.


----------



## Ken984

i gave up crossing my fingers, using toes now instead, its easier to type
I would hope a new tle comes down and shows it keeping to the west..for a cpl of days. On or about September 1st is close enough for me to think they are done testing, but the FCC hasn't responded either so who knows.


----------



## raoul5788

Ken984 said:


> i gave up crossing my fingers, using toes now instead, its easier to type
> I would hope a new tle comes down and shows it keeping to the west..for a cpl of days. On or about September 1st is close enough for me to think they are done testing, but the FCC hasn't responded either so who knows.


Would the FCC have to respond publicly for the change to be granted? Maybe it has been already, just not released publicly.


----------



## jasonblair

raoul5788 said:


> Would the FCC have to respond publicly for the change to be granted? Maybe it has been already, just not released publicly.


FINALLY! A question I can answer on the tech thread! 

As an attorney for the federal government with expertise in intellectual property, communications law, and administrative law, I can tell you WITHOUT HESITATION that the grant HAS to be public. The Administrative Procedures Act, as well as the Freedom of Information Act make all of these decisions a matter of public record. Additionally, the agency is most likely required to provide a window of opportunity for members of the public to raise objections prior to issuing the final grant of approval.

The only way this wouldn't be made public would be if it dealt with national security in some way. (Perhaps if the DirecTV plans to carry Al Jazeera on the D10? :lol: )


----------



## jasonblair

(And now for my boilerplate disclaimer) - The statements I provide should NOT be relied on for legal advice. I may not be licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Please contact a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.


----------



## Ken984

What he said, finding the public notice however is not as easy as it should be. There are several users that scan the fcc site daily looking for anything related to this, so with any luck they will come up with the official answer. The best thing going for its approval is that the difference in where it has already been approved and where they want to use it at is very small and there are no other sats that could be adversely affected other than DirecTV's own birds.


----------



## Sirshagg

jasonblair said:


> FINALLY! A question I can answer on the tech thread!
> 
> As an attorney for the federal government with expertise in intellectual property, communications law, and administrative law, I can tell you WITHOUT HESITATION that the grant HAS to be public. The Administrative Procedures Act, as well as the Freedom of Information Act make all of these decisions a matter of public record. Additionally, the agency is most likely required to provide a window of opportunity for members of the public to raise objections prior to issuing the final grant of approval.
> 
> The only way this wouldn't be made public would be if it dealt with national security in some way. (Perhaps if the DirecTV plans to carry Al Jazeera on the D10? :lol: )


Ok, but does it have to be made public the moment it happens? Who knows how long it might take to get posted on a website or wherever.


----------



## LameLefty

> (And now for my boilerplate disclaimer) - The statements I provide should NOT be relied on for legal advice. I may not be licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Please contact a licensed attorney in your state for legal advice.


Heh. I can relate to that. 

It will be publicized within anywhere from a few hours to a couple days, going by my personal experience with government online databases.


----------



## Mikey

LameLefty said:


> The original FCC approval was for 102.8 W, but DirecTV has requested authority to operate at 102.775 instead - I don't know if that request has been granted or not. From our perspective, it makes very little difference. At GSO altitude, that's a difference of like 11 or 12 miles - the tiniest fraction of a degree's difference in azimuth from the surface.


I'm just guessing, but I'd say that if Direct doesn't get approval for 102.775 this week, they'll start moving it to 102.8 anyway, because that's already approved. I doubt those few miles will make a big difference in operations.


----------



## James Long

Sirshagg said:


> Ok, but does it have to be made public the moment it happens? Who knows how long it might take to get posted on a website or wherever.


Via search things are pretty quick. The FCC's document management system makes things available often the next day. If you're waiting for the official "public notice" that will come two or three days later.

I wish the International Bureau that handles satellites was as well organized as the Media Bureau that handles AM/FM/TV. Often they have delays, but the documents are always up to date.

There should be a difference between 102.775 and 102.8 otherwise D* wouldn't bother.


----------



## purtman

James Long said:


> Via search things are pretty quick. The FCC's document management system makes things available often the next day. If you're waiting for the official "public notice" that will come two or three days later.
> 
> I wish the International Bureau that handles satellites was as well organized as the Media Bureau that handles AM/FM/TV. Often they have delays, but the documents are always up to date.
> 
> There should be a difference between 102.775 and 102.8 otherwise D* wouldn't bother.


It would be nice if the official public notice was on the site already, but I have a feeling D* must feel pretty good about the approval. Otherwise, we wouldn't see all of these new channels popping up on the on-line guide.


----------



## oakwcj

Here's the latest elset:

1 31862U 07032A 07240.38204441 -.00000108 00000-0 10000-3 0 660
2 31862 000.1060 292.0326 0000239 328.5125 110.6292 01.00272561 547

Nothing major. The sat will now be at 102.5732 at 5:00 AM EDT tomorrow, instead of at 102.5693 per the previous TLE.


----------



## khoyme

Mikey said:


> I'm just guessing, but I'd say that if Direct doesn't get approval for 102.775 this week, they'll start moving it to 102.8 anyway, because that's already approved. I doubt those few miles will make a big difference in operations.


Hmmm... but didn't the request for 102.775 give the rationale as keeping a safer distance from the nearby Spaceway? Until they have perfectly settled the orbit, I would think that the time of greatest risk of "interference" would be during initial operations, while tweaks are going on.

But then I am a novice GEO-sat watcher -- perhaps it is as stable as it gets right now, and they are dealing with lunar/solar/earth variations.

Disclaimer: I don't fly satellites for a living. I am not licensed to practice in Geosync. Do not take my advice for where to place your valuable satellite.


----------



## syphix

purtman said:


> I have a feeling D* must feel pretty good about the approval. Otherwise, we wouldn't see all of these new channels popping up on the on-line guide.


The new channels that are lighting up (Big Ten Network and a couple shopping/religious/feel good channels are NOT a result of anything to do with D10. Sorry.. 

Big Ten Network, for one, was planned for a LONG time ago.


----------



## purtman

I know the Big 10 Network was originally planned a while ago. But what's up with 691? It is USA, but it's not just the U.S. Open. It also has Law & Order listed on it.


----------



## syphix

purtman said:


> I know the Big 10 Network was originally planned a while ago. But what's up with 691? It is USA, but it's not just the U.S. Open. It also has Law & Order listed on it.


691 is simply a remapping of 242. It's being "mirrored" on both channels for the ease of finding the matches during the U.S. Open. Once the U.S. Open is over, it'll disappear. (And no, it's not taking up any more bandwidth: it's just that 242 & 691 both map to the same sat, same trans, same channel...that's all)


----------



## James Long

Tech only please!

:backtotop


----------



## EaglePC

5am on the east coast 8/29/07 anyone else notice
NEW SAT 103(b) 
i get 16 transponders lit up all @ 0

have never notice sat 103(b)
what is sat 103 (a) conus?
HURRAH!!!!!!

You are just getting fringe signals from one of the Spaceway satellites in the 103 position. When the "0"'s on the signal screen start being replaced with "N/A"signal strengths, you will know the new sat (Directv10) is ready.


----------



## Tbettini

i checked for sat signals about 40 mins ago and 103b was not there, and now it is, guess they are getting ready!
Also chan 499 just changed from 720p to 1080i dont know if that matters


----------



## EaglePC

Tbettini said:


> i checked for sat signals about 40 mins ago and 103b was not there, and now it is, guess they are getting ready


KOOL! and here i was paying attention to 103(a) all the time ,guess things work different ,now we have to diagnose ch 499

can anyone see where DirecTV 10 SAT is @


----------



## STEVEN-H

EaglePC said:


> 5am on the east coast 8/29/07 anyone else notice
> NEW SAT 103(b)
> i get 16 transponders lit up all @ 0
> 
> have never notice sat 103(b)
> what is sat 103 (a) conus?
> HURRAH!!!!!!
> 
> You are just getting fringe signals from one of the Spaceway satellites in the 103 position. When the "0"'s on the signal screen start being replaced with "N/A"signal strengths, you will know the new sat (Directv10) is ready.


Yes I have it here in Louisville, KY. 103b 16 transponders 1 to 8 read 0, 9 to 14 read 0, 17 reads 0 and 22 reads 0. All others are N/A.

Hello D10 and welcome to Louisville


----------



## EaglePC

Hello D10 and welcome to Buffalo
EaglePC spotted some life of D10 1st LOL

did I do good this time here in the topic?


----------



## STEVEN-H

EaglePC said:


> Hello D10 and welcome to Buffalo
> EaglePC spotted some life of D10 1st LOL
> 
> did I do good this time here in the topic?


Your Eagle eye is much appreciated. While the others sleep we have joy!:lol:


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

I also have 103b now with a bunch of 0's. I can't wait we are getting close.


----------



## tgater

I don't have channel 499 anymore


----------



## Grydlok

It's showing up in VA.


----------



## John4924

EaglePC said:


> Hello D10 and welcome to Buffalo
> EaglePC spotted some life of D10 1st LOL
> 
> did I do good this time here in the topic?


Don't worry, you will find out soon enough if you did good! :lol:

But for me, yes, you did REAL GOOD!

Cheers,
John


----------



## syphix

Wow, am I eating crow for breakfast this morning! Great eye and attention to detail EaglePC!! :up: Let's get those HD's lit up!


----------



## TimGoodwin

So close we can taste it!!


----------



## MikeR7

103b with zeros in Central Wisconsin Wooo HOooooh


----------



## Steve Robertson

I checked my box this morning and when I went to test the signals it said it had to interupt recordings on both tunners but neither one was recording so not sure what is up with that. I was able to check and I still had NA's here in Boston. I did a reset before I left for work it will be interesting to see what it looks like when I turn on the tv tonight.


----------



## RAD

103(b) with 0's on 16 TP's (1-14, 17 and 22) down in Austin, HR20-700.


----------



## hobie346

I'm only getting transponders 0-6 & 9 lite up for 103 on the west coast and they alternate between 0 and 97 for even and odd transponders. I have run the ch 499 test and it passes.

OK I found my problem - I was only looking at 103(a). When I switched to 103(b) I see the new transponders and they are all zero.


----------



## tgater

Steve Robertson said:


> I checked my box this morning and when I went to test the signals it said it had to interupt recordings on both tunners but neither one was recording so not sure what is up with that. I was able to check and I still had NA's here in Boston. I did a reset before I left for work it will be interesting to see what it looks like when I turn on the tv tonight.


Same happened to me the only way to back out of a signal test was to reset. Is this a bug that needs reporting?


----------



## tgater

hobie346 said:


> I'm only getting transponders 0-6 & 9 lite up for 103 on the west coast and they alternate between 0 and 97 for even and odd transponders. I have run the ch 499 test and it passes.


103(a) or 103(b)?


----------



## mridan

EaglePC said:


> 5am on the east coast 8/29/07 anyone else notice
> NEW SAT 103(b)
> i get 16 transponders lit up all @ 0
> 
> have never notice sat 103(b)
> what is sat 103 (a) conus?
> HURRAH!!!!!!
> 
> You are just getting fringe signals from one of the Spaceway satellites in the 103 position. When the "0"'s on the signal screen start being replaced with "N/A"signal strengths, you will know the new sat (Directv10) is ready.


Woke up today and checked sat signal,(fine tuned it over the weeekend)and I to have sat 103(b)!!!


----------



## Steve Robertson

tgater said:


> Same happened to me the only way to back out of a signal test was to reset. Is this a bug that needs reporting?


After reset did everything start working ok? Good question on the bug and I don't have an answer


----------



## chopperjc

EaglePC said:


> Hello D10 and welcome to Buffalo
> EaglePC spotted some life of D10 1st LOL
> 
> did I do good this time here in the topic?


Yes I have the signal too! Woohoo. For the record I have enjoyed ALL of your posts. A little humor is always a good thing.


----------



## tgater

Steve Robertson said:


> After reset did everything start working ok? Good question on the bug and I don't have an answer


Yes, everthing was fine didn't loose any recordings and didn't have redo the real CIR!


----------



## Indiana627

So _that's_ what the 'a' and 'b' mean after the 99 and 103 mean - 2 birds at 1 location! I'm so stupid!

I'll have to check tonight when I get home. I checked last night and nothing.


----------



## Ken984

I don't think you have a signal, I think D* has activated the 103b test screen, now if they light up a transponder then you will get a reading, once the sat is closer to its final position.


----------



## brewer4

RAD said:


> 103(b) with 0's on 16 TP's (1-14, 17 and 22) down in Austin, HR20-700.


Same in New England.


----------



## Steve Robertson

tgater said:


> Yes, everthing was fine didn't loose any recordings and didn't have redo the real CIR!


Great thanks have you checked your signals on 103?


----------



## Sirshagg

103(b)
1-14, 17, 22 all 0(quickly)


----------



## tgater

Steve Robertson said:


> Great thanks have you checked your signals on 103?


Yeah that's what led to me having to RBR. I have been checking at least twice per day for the last ten days. I have a 8 sets and D* has fianly decided to install a powered muti switch. one of my WB68 was to hot to touch and with the last firmware sent out Tuesday morning my standard receivers lost their locals. My Tivo based DVR's don't see sat 2 yet it shows a signal. But the tech that comes out on Sat is gonna have his hands full.


----------



## Steve Robertson

tgater said:


> Yeah that's what led to me having to RBR. I have been checking at least twice per day for the last ten days. I have a 8 sets and D* has fianly decided to install a powered muti switch. one of my WB68 was to hot to touch and with the last firmware sent out Tuesday morning my standard receivers lost their locals. My Tivo based DVR's don't see sat 2 yet it shows a signal. But the tech that comes out on Sat is gonna have his hands full.


Good luck with your tech I hope you get a good one.


----------



## LameLefty

EaglePC said:


> did I do good this time here in the topic?


Yes, thanks!


----------



## loudo

Coming down the home stretch, I think I see the checkered flag at the start/finish line. :welcome:


----------



## purtman

Ken984 said:


> I don't think you have a signal, I think D* has activated the 103b test screen, now if they light up a transponder then you will get a reading, once the sat is closer to its final position.


So you're saying this a false alarm?


----------



## markrubi

I hope it's on by 9-1-07..... First of the month. Paychecks and new HD!! :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

purtman said:


> So you're saying this a false alarm?


Not a false alarm, just not signals from D10 yet. But it's a necessary and expected step and it's a good thing it's been taken. It means things are progressing very much on schedule.


----------



## Hdhead

How many mpeg 4 channels can be loaded onto each transponder?


----------



## tunce

Hdhead said:


> How many mpeg 4 channels can be loaded onto each transponder?


It looks like 4 per...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1749012,00.asp


----------



## purtman

Probably the only other site to get this many hits today will be the "search" site for the FCC.

Can somebody please provide the link again to see if the documents have been approved? Thanks!


----------



## RAD

E*'s been fitting 6 MPEG4 HD channels per TP.


----------



## EaglePC

purtman said:


> Probably the only other site to get this many hits today will be the "search" site for the FCC.
> 
> Can somebody please provide the link again to see if the documents have been approved? Thanks!


http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


----------



## Hdhead

RAD said:


> E*'s been fitting 6 MPEG4 HD channels per TP.


Is 6 at the expense of picture quality?


----------



## spoonman

purtman said:


> Probably the only other site to get this many hits today will be the "search" site for the FCC.
> ...


But will this thread go over 200K in view hits today :lol:


----------



## Ed Campbell

Folks i know w/E* say PQ is no better than D* HD lite.


----------



## Sirshagg

spoonman said:


> But will this thread go over 200K in view hits today :lol:


Today - strongly doubt it.


----------



## Ken984

D* will have no reason to cram channels on the same transponder for a while at least. D10 and D11 will have plenty of room. However we all know how this goes, 640k of ram is more than anyone will ever need....LOL


----------



## John4924

EaglePC said:


> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-134304


This is the original document filed by D* for Special Temporary Authority to move sat to 102.775....

Here is the FCC site that publishes their daily business...

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Digest/2007/

click "display current issue" and you have to muddle through to see if anything resembles any SAT issues...


----------



## tgater

Sirshagg said:


> Today - strongly doubt it.


Michael Vick is hoping it does, it'll take some of the attention away from him.

All kidding aside this page has been slow to load and I have recieved "site busy" errors.


----------



## syphix

Should there be any concern that it's August 29th, and there's been no word on the FCC's approval/denial of the proposed early move and different parking space for D10?? I thought many here speculated it would be approved quickly...what could the hold up be?


----------



## JLF

purtman said:


> Can somebody please provide the link again to see if the documents have been approved? Thanks!


The search for the international bureau is:

fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr030b.hts?set=

(I have to remove http as I have less than 5 posts)

The callsign for D10 is s2641
The callsign for D11 is s2640

And no it has not been approved


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> Probably the only other site to get this many hits today will be the "search" site for the FCC.
> 
> Can somebody please provide the link again to see if the documents have been approved? Thanks!


Links to the FCC daily digests are on this link. The "normal" schedule is for FCC to try to update this page by 1:30PM EDT each day.

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Digest/2007/dd2007.html

I am expecting any info about the D* to be buried in a file buried inside a titled "Report No. SAT-xxxxx".


----------



## oakwcj

Here's a more direct link:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


----------



## donshan

oakwcj said:


> Here's a more direct link:
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


Thanks for the link.  Note the "DA number" currently says "none'. It is this DA file that gets published in the Daily Digests in the SAT report, but there could be a delay of a couple of days in publishing it, so update of this link with an actual DA number would be indication of FCC action.


----------



## P Smith

Sorry, but your exiting based on zero facts about D10 activity.

What you see on this screen doesn't constitued as real signal from new sat D10.

It's just a screen. With little meaning for wide interpretation.

For technical conclusion we need real technical facts.



EaglePC said:


> 5am on the east coast 8/29/07 anyone else notice
> NEW SAT 103(b)
> *i get 16 transponders lit up all @ 0*
> 
> have never notice sat 103(b)
> what is sat 103 (a) conus?
> HURRAH!!!!!!
> 
> You are just getting fringe signals from one of the Spaceway satellites in the 103 position. When the "0"'s on the signal screen start being replaced with "N/A"signal strengths, you will know the new sat (Directv10) is ready.


----------



## VeniceDre

What a nice surprise to wake up to, 103(b) screen!

Like everyone else I'm getting 0 for transponders 1-14, 17, & 22

Good times, good times.

Like P Smith says, until we get a signal it's just a screen, but it's a start.


----------



## lwilli201

syphix said:


> Should there be any concern that it's August 29th, and there's been no word on the FCC's approval/denial of the proposed early move and different parking space for D10?? I thought many here speculated it would be approved quickly...what could the hold up be?


I am not sure what the big fuss is about. D10 can operate at eather position. There is no reason that they can not start operations from 102.8 and move it over to 102.775 after the approval. The move will just put a little more separation between the sat to make station keeping a little easier, and there would be less chance of them bumping into each other. If it was a real big deal, the original request would have been for 102.775.

IMHO


----------



## purtman

lwilli201 said:


> I am not sure what the big fuss is about. D10 can operate at eather position. There is no reason that they can not start operations from 102.8 and move it over to 102.775 after the approval. The move will just put a little more separation between the sat to make station keeping a little easier, and there would be less chance of them bumping into each other. If it was a real big deal, the original request would have been for 102.775.
> 
> IMHO


I don't believe they have approval to move over to 102.8 until Sept. 15.


----------



## P Smith

Actually it is big deal - begin from uplink targetting and interference on both ways up and down.


----------



## lwilli201

P Smith said:


> Actually it is big deal - begin from uplink targetting and interference on both ways up and down.


Im sure all that stuff is adjusted on a daily basis anyway. I do not see a problem with that small move. It sure will make no difference in the downlink. If it did we would have to realign out dish.


----------



## LameLefty

P Smith said:


> Actually it is big deal - begin from uplink targetting and interference on both ways up and down.


There shouldn't be much if any downlink interference - they're operating on different bands (Ka-hi for Spaceway 1 and Ka-lo for D10). And command/control signals are encrypted digital signals (as are uplink transmissions). Further, a difference of 18 miles or so (which is what that slot difference works out to at GSO altitudes) is not an issue for signaling - the azimuth difference from a ground station is TINY. You probably have more error in your antenna pointing than that.


----------



## mhayes70

P Smith said:


> Sorry, but your exiting based on zero facts about D10 activity.
> 
> What you see on this screen doesn't constitued as real signal from new sat D10.
> 
> It's just a screen. With little meaning for wide interpretation.
> 
> For technical conclusion we need real technical facts.


I think all he was saying that we can now see the transponders. Even though they are 0. But, we can now see them. Also, several other people in this thread has stated the same thing. I think that is a very notable sign that things are moving forward.


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> I don't believe they have approval to move over to 102.8 until Sept. 15.


However D* requested STA to start to move Sept.1. FCC approval of that STA is what the interest in the FCC filings is about. IMO D* will not start the move early or would they send out any actual HD broadcasts until FCC gives its OK.

This discussion reminds me of the difference between "can" and "may". Sure D* "can" send us HD channels from where D10 is located right now, but they "may" not until FCC says yes, and then after Sept 1 D* meets all the STA requirements including the slight move to the requested 102.775 W.



> What is the Difference between May and Can?
> 
> We use "can" to indicate capability or possibility, e.g. "I don't know if I can lift this piano by myself." The implication here is on whether you have the physical capacity or mental acuity to get the piano lifted. "May" is used when you are asking permission, "May I lift your piano for a little exercise?" Here you wish the permission of someone to carry out an action.
> Back to English Grammar & Style


----------



## GeorgeLV

tunce said:


> It looks like 4 per...
> 
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1749012,00.asp


That's an ANCIENT article. Given that the days of 1 mpeg2 HD channel per transponder has been long since passed, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

I'd guess if they used bitrates comparable to E*, they could get 8 mpeg4 channels per transponders if they are use advanced modulation techniques that are possible with the new equipment (the transponders could have a raw data rate of 50mbps+).


----------



## John4924

donshan said:


> However D* requested STA to start to move Sept.1. FCC approval of that STA is what the interest in the FCC filings is about. IMO D* will not start the move early or would they send out any actual HD broadcasts until FCC gives its OK.
> 
> This discussion reminds me of the difference between "can" and "may". Sure D* "can" send us HD channels from where D10 is located right now, but they "may" not until FCC says yes, and then after Sept 1 D* meets all the STA requirements including the slight move to the requested 102.775 W.


donshan, I am sitting here at lunch looking through the FCC site

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/myibfs/

If you enter in the call sign for D10 [S2641] in the quick search, you get all filings associated with D10. What got my attention is the file number ending in ....00086 which is here...

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number

And if you read this, this was to permanently move D10 to 102.775 which was filed on 26-June-07.

I am curious if anyone knows what this means [if anything] 

Cheers,
John


----------



## Mikey

The FCC approval gives them 30 days starting 10AUG07 at 106 for IOT, and approval to move to 102.8 after IOT. You *could* read that to say Direct has permission to move to 102.8 as soon as IOT is complete, but no later than 09SEP07. IOT could have been completed yesterday, for all we know.


----------



## oakwcj

John4924 said:


> donshan, I am sitting here at lunch looking through the FCC site
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/myibfs/
> 
> If you enter in the call sign for D10 [S2641] in the quick search, you get all filings associated with D10. What got my attention is the file number ending in ....00086 which is here...
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number
> 
> And if you read this, this was to permanently move D10 to 102.775 which was filed on 26-June-07.
> 
> I am curious if anyone knows what this means [if anything]
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Yes, it means that D* wants to have D10 permanently at 102.775. But, according to the filing for temporary authority, the application for permanent assignment hasn't gone on public notice yet. Hence, the request for temporary authority:

DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") hereby requests Special Temporary
Authority ("STA") for sixty days to operate its DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.775° W.L.
orbital location. The DIRECTV 10 satellite is currently licensed to operate at the 102.8º W.L.
orbital location.1 DIRECTV, however, has filed an application for modification requesting
authorization to operate DIRECTV 10 at the 102.775° W.L. orbital location in order to collocate
it with its SPACEWAY 1 satellite.2 That application has not yet gone on public notice.


----------



## John4924

oakwcj said:


> Yes, it means that D* wants to have D10 permanently at 102.775. But, according to the filing for temporary authority, the application for permanent assignment hasn't gone on public notice yet. Hence, the request for temporary authority:


Hate to be nit-picking here, but why not on public notice yet? It was filed over 2 months ago! Am I missing something here?


----------



## James Long

donshan said:


> Links to the FCC daily digests are on this link. The "normal" schedule is for FCC to try to update this page by 1:30PM EDT each day.


However, Daily Digests are usually a couple of days behind actual actions.


----------



## texasbrit

See this post.....http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=899457


----------



## Ken984

New tle
DIRECTV10
1 31862U 07032A 07241.41038113 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 689
2 31862 000.1046 291.3360 0000070 034.8396 056.2192 01.00272727 550

Current position @ 704pm

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5725° W
Lat	0.0589° S
Alt (km)	35 785.840
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	15h 39m 46s
Decl	-5° 19' 54"
Range (km)	37 011.012
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	270.0° (191)
TA	270.0°
Orbit #	55
Mag (illum)	? (40%)
Constellation	Lib


----------



## purtman

Ken, thanks for including the additional info. Without having the software, the tle itself does nothing for most of us.


----------



## lwilli201

mhayes70 said:


> I think all he was saying that we can now see the transponders. Even though they are 0. But, we can now see them. Also, several other people in this thread has stated the same thing. I think that is a very notable sign that things are moving forward.


What it tells me is that the receiver is looking (Scanning) for the transponders and not finding them.


----------



## Ken984

purtman said:


> Ken, thanks for including the additional info. Without having the software, the tle itself does nothing for most of us.


No problem, glad to help although D10 is getting pretty boring to watch at this point


----------



## James Long

:backtotop


----------



## purtman

What's considered off-topic here? This is the second time I've seen this for something that didn't like it was really off topic.


----------



## James Long

Sorry ... the OT stuff was removed. I should have noted that ... back to tech.


----------



## purtman

It's been approved!

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


----------



## donshan

purtman said:


> It's been approved!
> 
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


Great NEWS! I appreciate your posting the link. This is earlier than Daily Digests which may have the DA file tomorrow.


----------



## purtman

Couldn't get in here so I had to get my fix! :lol:


----------



## sadude39

Outstanding news, purtman... Good find.....now what should we expect and when? I hope something may happen this weekend.


----------



## EaglePC

donshan said:


> Great NEWS! I appreciate your posting the link. This is earlier than Daily Digests which may have the DA file tomorrow.


we could see some Hd channels sept 1st ?????????:hurah:


----------



## James Long

donshan said:


> Great NEWS! I appreciate your posting the link. This is earlier than Daily Digests which may have the DA file tomorrow.


It should ... "Action Taken PN Date: 08/31/2007"
Only the day after grant. Not bad for the public notice.


EaglePC said:


> we could see some Hd channels sept 1st ?????????:hurah:


What's wrong with the 10 you already see? 

Please answer appropriate for a tech thread.


----------



## EaglePC

where is D10 i went to ny2o it shows 102.57 
not right at all...


----------



## oakwcj

EaglePC said:


> where is D10 i went to ny2o it shows 102.57
> not right at all...


What's not right about it? That's the testing location. The STA was just granted. For all we know, the most current elset isn't current any more and D10 has already begun to drift to 102.775. As Lame Lefty has explained to us more times than he can remember, we don't have real-time information on the location of this satellite. If it hasn't started to move west yet, we can expect it to do so RSN. All we can do is wait for another TLE.


----------



## Ken984

the tle has not been updated since yesterday its been at 102.5699 for quite a while this afternoon.


----------



## EaglePC

is this like a 1,000 miles of traveling to 102.775 location from102.5699 in space terms ?

sorry if this was a dumb question

also directv can sit on this for a few weeks even with this right ?
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


----------



## Ken984

no its less than 500 miles...lefty can probably tell you a more accurate figure.


----------



## oakwcj

It's nothing like 1,000 miles. Less than 100, I would think. In its application, D* said it would take 2-3 days to drift it into place and that it would begin on or about September 1. I would assume that they would want to know their final destination before making the thrust adjustments to get there.


----------



## Interceptor

I'm guessing it's more like 100 miles, or very close to that. That is, if my math at that altitude is correct.

Heck, my math at this altitude usually ain't that great!:lol:


----------



## EaglePC

I imagine there is no winds in space to hurry it up 

poll:2,000 post or some new hd


----------



## Ken984

If I remember right Lefty said the .025 degree difference between 102.8 and 102.775 was about 18 miles. So a full tenth of a degree would be 4x18=72 miles. It is at 102.5699 according to the last tle and that makes the difference in degrees it needs to move .2051 degrees. That equals out to 8.024 x 18=144.432 miles.
I hope this is somewhat close, if not I am sure someone will correct me.


----------



## Halo

The circumference should be 2 X pi X radius
C=2*pi*r where the radius r is (radius of the earth 3963 miles + altitude of D10 22187 miles).

C (the distance D10 travels in one orbit) is 164,308 miles.

Divide that by 360 degrees and each degree should be 456.4 miles. 

So traveling from 102.5699 to 102.775 should be around 93.6 miles.

Right?


----------



## Ken984

Halo said:


> The circumference should be 2 X pi X radius
> C=2*pi*r where the radius r is (radius of the earth 3963 miles + altitude of D10 22187 miles).
> 
> C (the distance D10 travels in one orbit) is 164,308 miles.
> 
> Divide that by 360 degrees and each degree should be 456.4 miles.
> 
> So traveling from 102.5699 to 102.775 should be around 93.6 miles.
> 
> Right?


Your math looks more scientific than mine, I was just guessing at a way to figure it. Either way its not too far


----------



## mike_augie

Halo said:


> The circumference should be 2 X pi X radius
> C=2*pi*r where the radius r is (radius of the earth 3963 miles + altitude of D10 22187 miles).
> 
> C (the distance D10 travels in one orbit) is 164,308 miles.
> 
> Divide that by 360 degrees and each degree should be 456.4 miles.
> 
> So traveling from 102.5699 to 102.775 should be around 93.6 miles.
> 
> Right?


huh??.... lol ....sounds right...that is waht I was just fixing to say.. lol... good job..


----------



## flyfishr1

Interceptor said:


> I'm guessing it's more like 100 miles, or very close to that. That is, if my math at that altitude is correct.
> 
> Heck, my math at this altitude usually ain't that great!:lol:


I'm a retired commercial pilot and nuclear power station worker. If you arn't operating on my back/brain, shooting and ILS approach at minimums or pulling the control rods at a nuclear power station next to my house: I'll give you the 6.4 miles!! This is only TV. The hairy eyeball guestimate works for me!!!

Jim


----------



## Halo

lol, that's 5th grade math. nothing hard about that.

Now, if someone wants to calc how long the XIPS have to burn to move D10 over in the estimated 3 days...that's a little more interesting.


----------



## lwilli201

Everything (or maybe more) that you need to know about the XIPS thruster.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html

A little light reading on a slow night.


----------



## Hamiltony

Halo said:


> lol, that's 5th grade math. nothing hard about that.
> 
> Now, if someone wants to calc how long the XIPS have to burn to move D10 over in the estimated 3 days...that's a little more interesting.


just an observation, but there is no gravity or friction in space to slow d10 down. a burn gets it to speed and another burn at the end stops it. the length of the burn (i am a true layman and don't know for sure) would serve to bring the sat to a drift speed, and i believe the same length burn in the other direction halts it. that being said, i am only guessing, so someone correct me.

as an aside, a burn wouldnt even be needed, the sat could jettison weight in the opposite direction it wants to go and achieve the same end; equal and opposite reaction. not that sats carry spare weight to propel themselves, but it is interesting. think of standing on a perfectly smooth ice rink, where no friction was possible, and tossing one glove in one direction; you start to slide in the opposite direction. now, knowing that your other glove was a precise weight match to the first, you could toss the second in the opposite direction to stop yourself when you got to the magic ice-fishing spot. granted, the mass of a glove would not propel you at great speed, but you would get there.


----------



## P Smith

It works little different way - lowering orbit and raising for move from one point of GSO to other. If you talking about correction to bring an object to GSO, then there different types of maneuver.


----------



## ajwillys

Hamiltony said:


> as an aside, a burn wouldnt even be needed, the sat could jettison weight in the opposite direction it wants to go and achieve the same end; equal and opposite reaction. not that sats carry spare weight to propel themselves, but it is interesting. think of standing on a perfectly smooth ice rink, where no friction was possible, and tossing one glove in one direction; you start to slide in the opposite direction. now, knowing that your other glove was a precise weight match to the first, you could toss the second in the opposite direction to stop yourself when you got to the magic ice-fishing spot. granted, the mass of a glove would not propel you at great speed, but you would get there.


Yeah, but when you do that you've just taken out the two satellites next to you!


----------



## EaglePC

lwilli201 said:


> Everything (or maybe more) that you need to know about the XIPS thruster.
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html
> 
> A little light reading on a slow night.


http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/702fleet.html


----------



## cygnusloop

Hamiltony said:


> a burn gets it to speed and another burn at the end stops it. the length of the burn (i am a true layman and don't know for sure) would serve to bring the sat to a drift speed, and i believe the same length burn in the other direction halts it. that being said, i am only guessing, so someone correct me.





P Smith said:


> It works little different way - lowering orbit and raising for move from one point of GSO to other. If you talking about correction to bring an object to GSO, then there different types of maneuver.


He's right. Orbital mechanics are completely non-intuitive. Here's a quickie:

The Sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, right? Now, picture yourself floating in space way above the north pole, looking down at the Earth and all the satellites in GSO. From that perspective, the Earth is rotating counterclockwise, and the GSO satellites are orbiting counterclockwise at a speed that completes an orbit in 1 day, therefore staying above the same point on the Earth all the time. With me so far?

OK, the altitude of an orbit determines its speed. The lower the altitude, the faster the orbit, and the shorter the orbital period. The higher the altitude, the slower the speed and the longer the orbital period, this is the key concept. As it turns out, the altitude at which the orbital period happens to be exactly one day (actually 23hrs 56min, but that's for another post), is ~22,236 miles above mean sea level. Here's where I'm going with all this:

If you want to move a satellite to the east, you fire thrusters to lower the orbit a little bit, which speeds it up little bit, which shortens its period a little bit. Conversely, if you want to scoot it a little to the west, you raise the orbit a little bit, which slows it down, and lengthens its period. In either case you move it back to 22,236 miles when you get it to where you want it to be, and it will stay put with relation to a fixed point on the Earth's surface.

So, when DIRECTV is ready to drift D10 from its current location of ~102.6 degrees westward to its new location of ~102.775 degrees, they will fire the XIPS thrusters to raise the orbit slightly, in essence, letting the rest of the satellites in GSO "catch up" to it a little. They will then fire again to lower the orbit and park it, once it has arrived.


----------



## syphix

So, if D10 _starts_ its move on Saturday, how long does that exactly take to get parked?


----------



## EaglePC

syphix said:


> So, if D10 _starts_ its move on Saturday, how long does that exactly take to get parked?


less then 30 minutes


----------



## cygnusloop

syphix said:


> So, if D10 _starts_ its move on Saturday, how long does that exactly take to get parked?


Dunno, that depends on the power of the thrusters, and the duration of the burns. The faster you go, the more fuel you use. I am sure they intend to give it the slightest of nudges to get it into a drift. But what that works out to in real terms is anyones guess. My guess would be on the order of a few days.

I think I remember reading somewhere that satellite fuel on orbit is worth something like 200 times its weight in gold.


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> less then 30 minutes


No, I've read several times that it's approximately 3 days.


----------



## khoyme

syphix said:


> So, if D10 _starts_ its move on Saturday, how long does that exactly take to get parked?


I think the FCC requests indicated that it would take 3-4 days to move.


----------



## Tom Robertson

By using lots of fuel twice (once to start the move, once to stop) less than an hour. But to keep the life span maximized, it sounds like 3 days is planned.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

Two Line Element Set (TLE): 


1 31862U 07032A 07241.41038113 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 689
2 31862 000.1046 291.3360 0000070 034.8396 056.2192 01.00272727 550


----------



## Sixto

cygnusloop said:


> He's right. Orbital mechanics are completely non-intuitive. Here's a quickie:


Very nice, easy, clear explanation. Learning alot here.


----------



## Ken984

EaglePC said:


> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07241.41038113 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 689
> 2 31862 000.1046 291.3360 0000070 034.8396 056.2192 01.00272727 550


This is still the "newest" TLE but its 2 days old now.


----------



## sgibson

cygnusloop said:


> He's right. Orbital mechanics are completely non-intuitive. Here's a quickie:
> 
> The Sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, right? Now, picture yourself floating in space way above the north pole, looking down at the Earth and all the satellites in GSO. From that perspective, the Earth is rotating counterclockwise, and the GSO satellites are orbiting counterclockwise at a speed that completes an orbit in 1 day, therefore staying above the same point on the Earth all the time. With me so far?
> 
> OK, the altitude of an orbit determines its speed. The lower the altitude, the faster the orbit, and the shorter the orbital period. The higher the altitude, the slower the speed and the longer the orbital period, this is the key concept. As it turns out, the altitude at which the orbital period happens to be exactly one day (actually 23hrs 56min, but that's for another post), is ~22,236 miles above mean sea level. Here's where I'm going with all this:
> 
> If you want to move a satellite to the east, you fire thrusters to lower the orbit a little bit, which speeds it up little bit, which shortens its period a little bit. Conversely, if you want to scoot it a little to the west, you raise the orbit a little bit, which slows it down, and lengthens its period. In either case you move it back to 22,236 miles when you get it to where you want it to be, and it will stay put with relation to a fixed point on the Earth's surface.
> 
> So, when DIRECTV is ready to drift D10 from its current location of ~102.6 degrees westward to its new location of ~102.775 degrees, they will fire the XIPS thrusters to raise the orbit slightly, in essence, letting the rest of the satellites in GSO "catch up" to it a little. They will then fire again to lower the orbit and park it, once it has arrived.


Thanks for the orbit mechanics 101(You must be a rocket scientist...<g>). Anyhow, if the www.n2yo.com tracking site is current,
then it's still at 102.56 as of this a.m.


----------



## Ken984

Yep no changes as of yet. 8:50 am cdt

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5664° W
Lat	0.0249° N
Alt (km)	35 785.980
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.1°
RA	05h 32m 00s
Decl	-5° 14' 12"
Range (km)	37 005.383
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	118.1° (84)
TA	118.1°
Orbit #	57
Mag (illum)	? (37%)
Constellation	Ori


----------



## Richi

It seems that D10 is in it southeern route. I have noticed that most of the tle changes have occured around 2-3pm meaminig that D10 is around -.08 degrees south. At that point the relative velocity is around 2km/hr then it begings it's turn to the north. It is in this time were most of burns seem to have occured changing the eccentricity and inclination of the orbit. I suspect that a LOT of the manuvers will occur at this time period. The effect will be to bring the inclination a lot loser to zero and to place it at the desired orbital slot.


----------



## syphix

So, their approved move on Sept. 1st...is that Eastern time, GMT, Pacific time? When can D* start firing the jets to begin a move? Or would they wait until a certain "window of opportunity" to do so (I have no clue either way..)?


----------



## purtman

GMT. They can begin at 8 p.m. EST today. That's the start of Sept. 1 in GMT.


----------



## purtman

When people post TLEs, can they make sure to add its relative location so the rest of us without the software can see how close it is to 102.775?


----------



## Interceptor

Doesn't look like the latest tles show much change to the west:  

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07243.31575919 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 691
2 31862 000.0999 291.8362 0000079 106.9235 311.4550 01.00272601 561 


_____________________________

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-31 07:34:41
Orbit # at Epoch	56
Inclination	0.100
RA of A. Node	291.836
Eccentricity	0.0000079
Argument of Perigee	106.924
Revs per day	1.00272601
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	311.455
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	69 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

______________________________

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5673° W
Lat	0.0011° S
Alt (km)	35 785.720
Azm	207.1°
Elv	47.7°
RA	06h 46m 06s
Decl	-5° 21' 45"
Range (km)	37 221.490
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	65.0° (46)
TA	65.0°
Orbit #	57
Mag (illum)	? (22%)
Constellation	Mon


----------



## oakwcj

purtman said:


> GMT. They can begin at 8 p.m. EST today. That's the start of Sept. 1 in GMT.


I think you're being too literal here. The grant of authority is to operate from 102.775. The letter making the request simply informed the FCC that the final drift would begin on or about September 1. Now that they have the authority, they can move it whenever they want.


----------



## Xmaniac

oakwcj said:


> I think you're being too literal here. The grant of authority is to operate from 102.775. The letter making the request simply informed the FCC that the final drift would begin on or about September 1. Now that they have the authority, they can move it whenever they want.


That was my understanding as well.


----------



## Sixto

Just offiically posted (yep, was expecting per post last night):

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3811A1.txt

"On August 30, 2007, the Policy Branch granted with conditions DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC ("DIRECTV") for special temporary authority
(STA), File No. SAT-STA-20070816-00115. Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, *for a period of 60 days commencing on September 1,
2007* to conduct and telemetry, tracking and command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink); 18.30025 GHz and
18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary *to relocate the DIRECTV 10 satellite to 102.775º W.L. orbital location*. This grant includes the
authority to operate the space stations feeder links in the 18.3-18.8 GHz band and the service links in the bands 28.35-28.60 GHz and 29.25-29.50
GHz frequencies during this time. This STA is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in
DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules."

Updated first post: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=995893&postcount=1


----------



## purtman

Xmaniac said:


> That was my understanding as well.


If you look at this, you'll see they can begin these duties on Sept. 1:

_Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for a period of 60 days *commencing on September 1,*
2007 to conduct and telemetry, tracking and command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink); 18.30025 GHz and
18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary *to relocate *the DIRECTV 10 satellite to 102.775º W.L. orbital location. _

So based on this, I read this that on Sept. 1 they can begin the activities that will relocate the sat to this location. I had read something else that also led me to believe that they could begin the process on Sept. 1. I may be wrong, but this is my take on it. Any thoughts?


----------



## JohnH

Yep, they are not authorized 'til tomorrow to start the move

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-07-3811A1.pdf


----------



## Xmaniac

purtman said:


> If you look at this, you'll see they can begin these duties on Sept. 1:
> 
> _Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for a period of 60 days *commencing on September 1,*
> 2007 to conduct and telemetry, tracking and command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink); 18.30025 GHz and
> 18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary *to relocate *the DIRECTV 10 satellite to 102.775º W.L. orbital location. _
> 
> So based on this, I read this that on Sept. 1 they can begin the activities that will relocate the sat to this location. I had read something else that also led me to believe that they could begin the process on Sept. 1. I may be wrong, but this is my take on it. Any thoughts?


Well i stand corrected. I was going by the request and not the response from the FCC


----------



## oakwcj

purtman said:


> If you look at this, you'll see they can begin these duties on Sept. 1:
> 
> _Accordingly, DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for a period of 60 days *commencing on September 1,*
> 2007 to conduct and telemetry, tracking and command (TT&C) operations in the 29.251 GHz and 29.493 GHz (uplink); 18.30025 GHz and
> 18.30075 GHz (downlink) frequencies necessary *to relocate *the DIRECTV 10 satellite to 102.775º W.L. orbital location. _
> 
> So based on this, I read this that on Sept. 1 they can begin the activities that will relocate the sat to this location. I had read something else that also led me to believe that they could begin the process on Sept. 1. I may be wrong, but this is my take on it. Any thoughts?


I agree with your reading. Looks like there's a typo in the order ["to conduct and telemetry..." the "and" should be "any"]. It's probably a moot point, since September 1 UTC is just 7 hours from now, but I doubt the FCC would know or care whether a thrust adjustment made before that time was part of a movement to 102.775, since the satellite won't get there for a few days anyway.


----------



## purtman

The bottom line is HD is coming ... and fast!


----------



## P Smith

purtman said:


> The bottom line is HD is coming ... and fast!


The bottom line of the STA - DIRECTV granted telemetry not muxes with test/real channels.


----------



## John4924

P Smith said:


> The bottom line of the STA - DIRECTV granted telemetry not muxes with test/real channels.


but this does 

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws...=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number


----------



## wilmot3

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07242.28155697 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00692
2 31862 000.1024 291.8561 0000077 101.0461 303.9771 01.00272646000556

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-08-30 06:45:26
Orbit # at Epoch	55
Inclination	0.102
RA of A. Node	291.856
Eccentricity	0.0000077
Argument of Perigee	101.046
Revs per day	1.00272646
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	303.977
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0069 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## wilmot3

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5667° W
Lat	0.0584° S
Alt (km)	35 786.020
Azm	216.5°
Elv	35.1°
RA	09h 46m 57s
Decl	-6° 22' 12"
Range (km)	38 167.661
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	117.0° (83)
TA	117.0°
Orbit #	57
Mag (illum)	? (1%)


----------



## oakwcj

That TLE is actually OLDER than the one posted previously. Look at the dates:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07243.31575919 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 691
2 31862 000.0999 291.8362 0000079 106.9235 311.4550 01.00272601 561
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07242.28155697 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00692
2 31862 000.1024 291.8561 0000077 101.0461 303.9771 01.00272646000556

The first one is "07243....", while the second is "07242...", which means that the first is from day 243 of 2007 and the second is a day earlier.


----------



## EaglePC

The sat is moving around today. Its Latitude went from -0.02 to 0 to now at -0.04. The azimuth and elevation is also changing slightly. The longitude is still at 102.56 but I think its being gradually moved into place.


----------



## loudo

EaglePC said:


> The sat is moving around today. Its Latitude went from -0.02 to 0 to now at -0.04. The azimuth and elevation is also changing slightly. The longitude is still at 102.56 but I think its being gradually moved into place.


Could someone be playing with the thrusters, ahead of time?


----------



## EaglePC

DIRECTV HD testing schedule	

08.31.07 (9:26 am) 
DIRECT TV, the country's leading satellite provider launched its Satellite DIRECTV-10 during July 2007 to increase its bandwidth to provide new high definition channels starting from September. The satellite will be located in its orbit at 102.6 degrees from Second week of August. After it reaches the orbit level DIRECT TV will start commencing its HD channel broadcast from 1st September onwards.


----------



## purtman

EaglePC said:


> DIRECTV HD testing schedule
> 
> 08.31.07 (9:26 am)
> DIRECT TV, the country's leading satellite provider launched its Satellite DIRECTV-10 during July 2007 to increase its bandwidth to provide new high definition channels starting from September. The satellite will be located in its orbit at 102.6 degrees from Second week of August. After it reaches the orbit level DIRECT TV will start commencing its HD channel broadcast from 1st September onwards.


Good snag! Where did you find this?


----------



## D*HR-20

Knowing his posting pattern he probably heard it from a CSR (which apparently to him are always accurate) or he just made it up


----------



## EaglePC

purtman said:


> Good snag! Where did you find this?


forgit just searched google (directv 10 location)
was bored and getting excited

could be a rumor ,never believe what you read over the web highway :nono:


----------



## JonSamuels

EaglePC said:


> DIRECTV HD testing schedule
> 
> 08.31.07 (9:26 am)
> DIRECT TV, the country's leading satellite provider launched its Satellite DIRECTV-10 during July 2007 to increase its bandwidth to provide new high definition channels starting from September. The satellite will be located in its orbit at 102.6 degrees from Second week of August. After it reaches the orbit level DIRECT TV will start commencing its HD channel broadcast from 1st September onwards.


The fact that this says _"DIRECT TV"_ instead of _"DIRECTV"_ seems to raise a red flag for me.....


----------



## davring

Eagle, are there two of you?


----------



## EaglePC

davring said:


> Eagle, are there two of you?


My Son and I


----------



## Ken984

This is weird, spacetrack has reverted to that older tle. Wonder whats up?
I got this one this morning.
1 31862U 07032A 07243.31575919 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 691
2 31862 000.0999 291.8362 0000079 106.9235 311.4550 01.00272601 561
but now when i check they are listing the old one.
1 31862U 07032A 07242.28155697 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00692
2 31862 000.1024 291.8561 0000077 101.0461 303.9771 01.00272646000556
hmmmm


----------



## oakwcj

Not for me. I always get the last 5 elsets for context:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07243.31575919 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 691
2 31862 000.0999 291.8362 0000079 106.9235 311.4550 01.00272601 561
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07242.28155697 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00692
2 31862 000.1024 291.8561 0000077 101.0461 303.9771 01.00272646000556
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07241.41038113 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 689
2 31862 000.1046 291.3360 0000070 034.8396 056.2192 01.00272727 550
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07240.38204441 -.00000108 00000-0 10000-3 0 660
2 31862 000.1060 292.0326 0000239 328.5125 110.6292 01.00272561 547
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07240.38204441 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01166
2 31862 000.1071 291.2850 0000091 028.8620 051.0298 01.00272805000543
Total records returned: 5

Oh, and to Eagle PC, the satellite isn't moving around any more than it has in the past week or so. It always moves from slightly north of the equator to slightly south, and back again.


----------



## purtman

Heck, Sept. 1 is less than three hours away.


----------



## dbmaven

D*HR-20 said:


> Knowing his posting pattern he probably heard it from a CSR (which apparently to him are always accurate) or he just made it up


http://expertsatellite.tblog.com/post/1969955504

Not what I'd call a "definitive source"......:lol: :lol:


----------



## rrrick8

purtman said:


> Heck, Sept. 1 is less than three hours away.


:scratch: Do you live in Greenwich?


----------



## Ken984

oakwcj said:


> Not for me. I always get the last 5 elsets for context:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07243.31575919 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 691
> 2 31862 000.0999 291.8362 0000079 106.9235 311.4550 01.00272601 561
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07242.28155697 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00692
> 2 31862 000.1024 291.8561 0000077 101.0461 303.9771 01.00272646000556
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07241.41038113 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 689
> 2 31862 000.1046 291.3360 0000070 034.8396 056.2192 01.00272727 550
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07240.38204441 -.00000108 00000-0 10000-3 0 660
> 2 31862 000.1060 292.0326 0000239 328.5125 110.6292 01.00272561 547
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07240.38204441 -.00000108 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 01166
> 2 31862 000.1071 291.2850 0000091 028.8620 051.0298 01.00272805000543
> Total records returned: 5
> 
> Oh, and to Eagle PC, the satellite isn't moving around any more than it has in the past week or so. It always moves from slightly north of the equator to slightly south, and back again.


I get that when i do all 5 also, but when i just search for the "newest" i get the 242 set...guess i'll make sure to check the last 5 also from now on.


----------



## purtman

rrrick8 said:


> :scratch: Do you live in Greenwich?


No, but based on GMT, Sept. 1 is just three-plus hours away.


----------



## EaglePC

purtman said:


> No, but based on GMT, Sept. 1 is just three-plus hours away.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:33 PM.
which will make 1:33PM
9hours 27minutes away :hurah:


----------



## oakwcj

EaglePC said:


> All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:33 PM.
> which will make 1:33PM
> 9hours 27minutes away :hurah:


No, if you're UTC -4, then you need to ADD 4 hours, which means that it's now 21:39 UTC.


----------



## purtman

If it is 5:33 in New York, it is 9:33 in Greenwich. New York is four hours behind Greenwich during the summer and five hours behind in winter.

Keep away from that DDT. It's messing up your math.


----------



## EaglePC

Greenwich almost bedtime wow !


----------



## rrrick8

:backtotop


----------



## purtman

Is mentioning how many hours before they can begin moving "off topic"? I've seen some "off topic" icons pop up lately and they're pretty confusing because they're coming later than what's intended or they're kind of borderline as to what's off topic.


----------



## EaglePC

See The Difference
Enhanced picture detail brings incredible clarity to images, making everything more lifelike.





Normal TV HD TV This demonstration is for illustration purposes only and is not an actual representation of the exact difference between standard definition and high definition.

SD -------------------------------HD


----------



## donshan

cygnusloop said:


> He's right. Orbital mechanics are completely non-intuitive. Here's a quickie:
> 
> The Sun rises in the east, and sets in the west, right? Now, picture yourself floating in space way above the north pole, looking down at the Earth and all the satellites in GSO. From that perspective, the Earth is rotating counterclockwise, and the GSO satellites are orbiting counterclockwise at a speed that completes an orbit in 1 day, therefore staying above the same point on the Earth all the time. With me so far?
> 
> OK, the altitude of an orbit determines its speed. The lower the altitude, the faster the orbit, and the shorter the orbital period. The higher the altitude, the slower the speed and the longer the orbital period, this is the key concept. As it turns out, the altitude at which the orbital period happens to be exactly one day (actually 23hrs 56min, but that's for another post), is ~22,236 miles above mean sea level. Here's where I'm going with all this:
> 
> If you want to move a satellite to the east, you fire thrusters to lower the orbit a little bit, which speeds it up little bit, which shortens its period a little bit. Conversely, if you want to scoot it a little to the west, you raise the orbit a little bit, which slows it down, and lengthens its period. In either case you move it back to 22,236 miles when you get it to where you want it to be, and it will stay put with relation to a fixed point on the Earth's surface.
> 
> So, when DIRECTV is ready to drift D10 from its current location of ~102.6 degrees westward to its new location of ~102.775 degrees, they will fire the XIPS thrusters to raise the orbit slightly, in essence, letting the rest of the satellites in GSO "catch up" to it a little. They will then fire again to lower the orbit and park it, once it has arrived.


Very good explanation! I thought a Star Chart with satellites might help to see the REALLY BIG picture you describe so well.

The Norad data base tracks 356 satellites around the earth in geostationary orbit. When I plot them in my astronomy program "The Sky" our southern sky is so full of satellites some plot right on top of another in the sky chart below. The D* fleet is labeled approximately by the arrows. I identified the D* birds by using the "find" function that puts a red circle around the correct satellite on my computer screen. I counted about 65 satellites stationary in our southern sky. The DirecTV 4s, 8, and 9s are so close together at the scale of this chart you can see why small dish alignment is not extremely critical as posts above indicated.










The view is looking south (just like my DirecTV dish) from the Pacific Northwest at 11:52 AM PDT Aug 31. You can see the sun's location just above the row of satellites. Those stars and planets are there even if the sunlight keeps us from seeing them.

I counted about 65 satellites in our southern sky so maneuvering D10 to its assigned slot took quite a bit of care to avoid collisions. It also indicates to me a reason to "drift" the satellite carefully to its new slot. We are focused on D10, but this fleet of satellites involves all kinds of communication, data links, TV networks, Sat radio, weather sats and broadcasts to Mexico and South America.

I have indicated the approximate locations of the DirecTV satellites in this total fleet. Just above the line of active satellites are strays I believe to be the "Satellite graveyard" as two I labeled are now dead and classified as Junk, but NORAD still tracks them.

As *cygnusloop* states above, the satellites are moving at the same rate as the earth towards the East which creates our view of the sun and stars rising in the East and moving West. On the star chart the satellites stay stationary, but the sun and stars are in constant motion behind them. This is important in order to understand some of the data in Ken's posts as the following example from Aug 29:



> Current position @ 704pm
> 
> 1DIRECTV10
> Lon	102.5725° W
> Lat	0.0589° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.840
> Azm	196.1°
> Elv	51.0°
> RA	15h 39m 46s
> Decl	-5° 19' 54"
> Range (km)	37 011.012
> RRt (km/s)	0.000
> Vel (km/s)	3.075
> Direction	Ascending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	270.0° (191)
> TA	270.0°
> Orbit #	55
> Mag (illum)	? (40%)
> Constellation	Lib
> __________________


The star chart will explain a few of the terms in Ken's list. We are watching the first two items longitude and latitude as they are D10's position relative to earth . However the RA (Right Ascension), Dec ( Declination) and Constellation refer to the celestial coordinate system for the sky behind the satellites. RA changes minute by minute with time with the 24 hour earth rotation , and both RA and Dec also change more slowly each month as the earth goes on a year journey around the sun. Celestial coordinates are defined by Nasa at:

http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/bsf2-2.htm



> Declination (DEC) is the celestial sphere's equivalent of latitude and it is expressed in degrees, as is latitude. For DEC, + and - refer to north and south, respectively. The celestial equator is 0° DEC, and the poles are +90° and -90°.
> 
> Right ascension (RA) is the celestial equivalent of longitude. RA can be expressed in degrees, but it is more common to specify it in hours, minutes, and seconds of time: the sky appears to turn 360° in 24 hours, or 15° in one hour. So an hour of RA equals 15° of sky rotation.


On my chart the RA is time listed in hours is at the bottom of the chart, so in 1 hour the sky will move behind D10 the width of the vertical blue lines. Declination is the distance below or above the celestial equator and will change slowly as the earth travels in a circle around the sun in a year. The earth's rotational axis is tilted so we see seasonal variations ( sun low in winter). Stars are so far away their RA and Dec change very slowly due to earth wobble and the stars actual motion. RA and Dec positions of the Sun, moon, and planets change rapidly.

Thus, the constellation that D10 is listed as being in is changing rapidly during the earth's 24 hour cycle each day and also changing slowly by the earth's trip around the sun. Each month we get a different set of stars overhead ( and behind D10). This is why stating the time that the data were calculated is useful, because even an hour later these values will be quite different and a new constellation could be behind D10

The Azm and Elev. are the direction and angle up are specific for Ken's Latitude/longitude location and he could use them to adjust his dish. The will have different values for each different location on earth.

Finally when they slow down D10 to let the other GSO satellites catch up a little (as cygnusloop described ) they have to be careful not to get "rear ended" because there is a lot of traffic up there. Just joking!

Edit: sorry chart did not post I will see what is the matter.


----------



## Smthkd

:read: Talking about reading a book! :read:


----------



## Richi

It is now 0002hrs Zulu!!!!! LET THE DRIFTING BEGIN!!!!!! LET THERE BE HD EVERYWHERE!!!!!


----------



## PoitNarf

I hope they remember to use their turn signals properly when they start to move. Don't want the sat police to give them a moving violation


----------



## Dave

Now for my knowledge question of the day.
Who is in charge of actually moving the Sat to its new location? 
DirectV or Boing? I would think that Boing would do the thruster moves for them. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps some of you more knowledable members may know the answer.


----------



## wilmot3

this may be a dumb question but is there anyway to tell when it starts to move. Cause they don't update the tle that often do they?


----------



## Ken984

No we need tles to see where it is, and even then we are just projecting where it is and what its doing.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Dave said:


> Now for my knowledge question of the day.
> Who is in charge of actually moving the Sat to its new location?
> DirectV or Boing? I would think that Boing would do the thruster moves for them. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps some of you more knowledable members may know the answer.


At this point, I am guessing Boeing because we have not seen a turn-over announcement. But since this was a deliver on the ground with Boeing doing support work after the change of ownership and launch, I'm not sure.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## EaglePC

sat 103b all 0's still 
i give up


----------



## krock918316

Eagle - today was the first day they could start moving D10. That will take several days (from what I've seen)


----------



## Hdhead

MOVING DAY! Fire up those thrusters and for good measure hit us with a transponder signal so we may have an orgasmic experience!


----------



## richlife

First of all, many thanks to the techies who post the great status and technical information here. And thanks for pursuing the effort to eliminate or reduce the chaff that was threatening to overun your thread. I sometimes get in over my head here, but you're providing a fascinating service to those who have some background and any interest. Keep on truckin'!

And my thanks for those who created the Anticipation thread and those who continue to take their "chaff" over there. Not necessarily as informative, but almost as entertaining. :lol:


----------



## Interceptor

Once again, I see no evidence yet of the move, according to the latest tle.  
Lefty or Ken, care to give your take? Maybe just not enough time between the beginning of the move, and the element set? The new elset was created at 0940 hours UTC today. Wouldn't there have to be enough time between the thruster fire, and the elset to extrapolate its new position?

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0 10000-3 0 709
2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545 589 

_____________________
1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5648° W
Lat	0.0078° S
Alt (km)	35 785.700
Azm	207.1°
Elv	47.7°
RA	07h 06m 50s
Decl	-5° 22' 12"
Range (km)	37 221.994
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	50.8° (36)
TA	50.8°
Orbit #	59
Mag (illum)	? (19%)
Constellation	Mon

__________________________

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-01 09:40:58
Orbit # at Epoch	58
Inclination	0.097
RA of A. Node	291.790
Eccentricity	0.0000066
Argument of Perigee	126.392
Revs per day	1.00272545
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	324.678
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	70 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Ken984

Tracking software just predicts the position so if you load this into Orbitron the current location is 102.5645. These "moves" may be necessary to make the final drift to its home location more direct, its certainly not going too far with the eccentricity this low.


----------



## Interceptor

Yeah, that's what I noticed. I ran it with this tle in simulation mode through a couple of days, and it looks like it has not starting the move west yet. I'll bet the next tle will show it though!


----------



## EaglePC

maybe there waiting to sept 4 to do the move after the holiday


----------



## The Scotsman

DirecTV 10 appears to have started moving westwards. Checking on n2yo.com, the purple tracking line shows movement to the right. It's ever so slight, but this might be what everyone's been waiting for.


----------



## The Scotsman

When I say movement to the right, I really mean movement to the left!! It was my first post, so please excuse. Checking on the TV screen, it's still zero's as expected.


----------



## Ken984

N2yo is still using a tle from yesterday it is not correct. Right now its at 102.5639 and it has been drifting east all day.


----------



## Baldmaga

Ken984 said:


> N2yo is still using a tle from yesterday it is not correct. Right now its at 102.5639 and it has been drifting east all day.


that site says 102.56, however it's the only place I've been going for live tracking, only because I know no other place to go.


----------



## Ken984

The thing about that site is it does not update its tracking info regularly enough to get an accurate projection. The best way to do it is to download some free software and input the tle yourself. The most recent tle is

DIRECTV10
1 31862U 07032A 07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0 10000-3 0 709
2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545 589

I use Orbitron to track and its a nice program, a few others are using it as well, if you try it you will need to reformat that tle, the forum software messes up the spacing for some reason, just compare that to one of the tle's already in the program for reference.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

I'm just glad to see the 16 new transponders (even though at 0 levels) for 103 (b). It means we're getting really close.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Ken984 said:


> The thing about that site is it does not update its tracking info regularly enough to get an accurate projection. The best way to do it is to download some free software and input the tle yourself. The most recent tle is
> 
> DIRECTV10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0 10000-3 0 709
> 2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545 589
> 
> I use Orbitron to track and its a nice program, a few others are using it as well, if you try it you will need to reformat that tle, the forum software messes up the spacing for some reason, just compare that to one of the tle's already in the program for reference.


You can place a TLE within code tags to preserve spacing: [codeblock_93f176408f1a497bc93e713691741693] which will appear as:


Code:


T  L  E

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I'm just glad to see the 16 new transponders (even though at 0 levels) for 103 (b). It means we're getting really close.


Technically its just a test page on the receiver, the transponders are not actually being seen at all. But you are right it is a step forward, I am doubtful that much of anything will happen this weekend due to the holiday, but come Tuesday morning we should start seeing a lot of new evidence(however if D* wants to go ahead and pay some holiday pay to get this going that is fine by me too!!).


----------



## Ken984

Tom Robertson said:


> You can place a TLE within code tags to preserve spacing: [codeblock_93f176408f1a497bc93e713691741693] which will appear as:
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> T  L  E
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Excellent Tom, thanks!!



Code:


1 31862U 07032A   07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0   10000-3 0   709
2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545   589


----------



## Interceptor

Ditto! Thanks, Tom!


----------



## donshan

Baldmaga said:


> that site says 102.56, however it's the only place I've been going for live tracking, only because I know no other place to go.


To you and The Scotsman

n2yo.com can be useful for those without their own software for short periods after they update their TLE data. If you notice in the upper right in the "Real time position" window there is a link titled "details". Click on that and scroll to the bottom of the page and n2yo lists the TLE data they are using for DirecTV10. Compare the latest TLE numbers posted here with the n2yo values. Be sure both sets have exactly the same numbers. That means n2yo has updated to the correct TLE set and occasionally they are up to date.

Then n2y0.com is useful for you until new TLEs are posted here, usually very quickly after they are available. When that happens you can't trust n2yo anymore until they get around to updating their input data (Garbage in-Garbage out). Even when n2yo uses the same TLE there will be some small differences due to different software on n2yo, so don't get too excited about small changes and differences. When n2yo is using the latest TLE and they show D10 at -102.7x it is significant vs. the present value of -102.5x.

But why bother- this site has the best position data publicly available. Only Boeing and D* know more and they don't post their data.


----------



## rock819

Ok so i will be the one to ask any new tle's then ? If so where is the bird at ?


----------



## Ken984

No nothing new, its holding steady at 102.5639.


----------



## timmac

Isn't that kind of stupid. A long discourse of how n2yo is not right and then the last post says its exactly where n2yo says it is?


----------



## cygnusloop

timmac said:


> Isn't that kind of stupid. A long discourse of how n2yo is not right and then the last post says its exactly where n2yo says it is?


No one said it isn't right, just that it is often out of date, which it is. The only reason it is still "correct" is that the satellite hasn't moved much lately, and it's position is roughly the same as it was days ago.

A stopped clock is "right" twice a day, but not the best place to go to keep time.

It's a technical thread. Accuracy is important.

Oh, and :welcome_s to DBSTalk.


----------



## Ken984

The whole point of it is that n2yo is not keeping current, if the new tle had a significant change then you would have no idea, because they are at least 12 hrs behind now. The only reason that the longitude is close to the same is due to the tiny changes in the 2 sets, if they raise the eccentricity 100 points then it will be a pronounced difference in where it is and which way its drifting from what they are showing. We are just trying to keep it current. The next move it makes should be to 102.775, and everybody wants to know it the second it starts that way.


----------



## Sirshagg

Could someone just get out and push. I WANT MY HD! :grin:


----------



## donshan

timmac said:


> Isn't that kind of stupid. A long discourse of how n2yo is not right and then the last post says its exactly where n2yo says it is?


No, the two numbers are NOT the same- the difference is precision. Also remember neither are real time data like a current radar fix. Both are calculated current positions based on orbital data where D10 was located hours or days earlier predicting where it is now.

Ken's ( and others) carry the calculations to 4 decimals or more. Right now D10 may have already started its drift to the FCC approved 102.775 W from the position Ken's latest calculations posted just above show it at 102.5639.W.

n2y0 shows D10 at 102.56 W. The objective now is to detect the beginning of the drift and that may be a very small change in the TLE where 4 or more decimal accuracy is important to detect movement. n2yo is a 2 decimal approximation, and usually late in their input TLE data too. Thus I don't see 2 decimal accuracy as being as useful now as 4 decimal accuracy to detect this very small drift.

In addition D10 has been stationary (+/- 0.05 long) for days. Earlier when D10 was moving more rapidly the time lag in n2yo updates produced big differences in positional calculations vs using the latest NORAD produced data that Ken and others here get as soon as it is available.

I expect the posts here to detect real D10 drift before n2yo shows it. Ken or others please correct me if I have misstated the need for mathematical precision right now if there is to be any chance to detect this slow drift from the orbital calculations


----------



## timmac

Ok, I stand corrected. I use to go there when it was first fired and i would see it's track and just thought that it was real time. So, do we have a new location?


----------



## The Scotsman

Can someone please tell me the correct subject area for discussion on HDLite?
Thanks
Archie


----------



## Tom Robertson

The Scotsman said:


> Can someone please tell me the correct subject area for discussion on HDLite?
> Thanks
> Archie


Welcome to the forums, Scotsman! :welcome_s

The topic appears in many threads across both the Dish Network and DIRECTV forums. Using the Advanced Search tool of the site, this search came up with the best listings: Search for keyword Lite, in titles only, of the DIRECTV forums and subforums:









Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

timmac said:


> Ok, I stand corrected. I use to go there when it was first fired and i would see it's track and just thought that it was real time. So, do we have a new location?


Nothing new so far, without a new tle there is not much to report. Since it is a holiday weekend it is possible although very frustrating that nothing will change until Tuesday

But if it does you will read it here first!


----------



## oakwcj

A watched satellite never drifts.


----------



## hdtvfan0001

oakwcj said:


> A watched satellite never drifts.


That's a keeper! :lol:


----------



## donshan

timmac said:


> Ok, I stand corrected. I use to go there when it was first fired and i would see it's track and just thought that it was real time. So, do we have a new location?


Not a problem. Everyone here is learning too. Keep at it.

The TLE data come from NORAD, whose primary mission is to defend North America to detect any missiles heading our way. However they have to know exactly where every item in space is located to separate the known stuff from any new object they detect and have powerful equipment to do that job. They publish data on commercial satellites as a service, but they don't work for D*. When they get a new set of position data and publish it, those here on this site can update their computer calculations to predict future locations. Thus a new location depends on NORAD publication, and maybe the person in charge of updating their public data base is taking Labor Day weekend leave, but new updates will appear soon. Even then they are "not up to the minute" so things are always somewhat behind actual "real time".

About NORAD:
http://www.norad.mil/about/index.html



> The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, through mutual support arrangements with other commands.


Boeing is now controlling D10, and gets real time telemetry, but they don't publish any of it, so the space detectives here try to detect what is happening as best they can- and have been doing a pretty good job of it!

Three cheers for them!:hurah: :hurah: :hurah:


----------



## EaglePC

Two Line Element Set (TLE): 


1 31862U 07032A 07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0 10000-3 0 709
2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545 589


Last time retrieved: September 03 2007 03:00 UTC


----------



## krock918316

EaglePC said:


> Two Line Element Set (TLE):
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A 07244.40345683 -.00000110 00000-0 10000-3 0 709
> 2 31862 000.0973 291.7904 0000066 126.3922 324.6780 01.00272545 589
> 
> Last time retrieved: September 03 2007 03:00 UTC


Eagle, that's the same TLE as from yesterday.


----------



## John4924

krock918316 said:


> Eagle, that's the same TLE as from yesterday.


Yes, the third group of numbers in the first set "07244" means the 244th day of the year 07. The 244th day of this year is 01-Sep. So we want to be on the lookout for "07246" which will be 03-Sep, today! 

You can go here....

http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

click on goestationary, and Directv 10 is the last entry in the list of TLEs

Cheers,
John


----------



## hidefman

okay, this looks like to be the latest for D10... today Sept 3.

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07246.14052457 -.00000114 00000-0 10000-3 0 711
2 31862 0.0936 292.2730 0000017 191.1615 166.4821 1.00272335 592


----------



## krock918316

Ok...someone needs to plug that latest TLE in....the eccentricity is down to almost zero (the lowest eccentricity since D10 has been in orbit IIRC)

(EDIT)

I just checked n2y0 (http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862), and they have the same TLE. Current stats:

Latitude: 0.04
Longitude: -102.56


----------



## John4924

krock918316 said:


> Ok...someone needs to plug that latest TLE in....the eccentricity is down to almost zero (the lowest eccentricity since D10 has been in orbit IIRC)
> 
> (EDIT)
> 
> I just checked n2y0 (http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862), and they have the same TLE. Current stats:
> 
> Latitude: 0.04
> Longitude: -102.56


And the positive thing [I think] is there is now a velocity [speed] and the period is greater than 1 day [~1441 minutes]. I believe this is "good news", but we need Ken or Lefty [or someone else] to confirm. 

Cheers,
John


----------



## raoul5788

John4924 said:


> And the positive thing [I think] is there is now a velocity [speed] and the period is greater than 1 day [~1441 minutes]. I believe this is "good news", but we need Ken or Lefty [or someone else] to confirm.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


You mean someone that really knows what they are talking about?  :lol: :lol:


----------



## oakwcj

The new TLE is not what we've been waiting for. Eccentricity and inclination are down. For the satellite to start drifting, there is going to have to be a change in altitude. Apparently, testing is not yet complete.


----------



## wilmot3

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-03 03:22:21
Orbit # at Epoch	59
Inclination	0.094
RA of A. Node	292.273
Eccentricity	0.0000017
Argument of Perigee	191.161
Revs per day	1.00272335
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	166.482
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	71 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

using that tle


----------



## wilmot3

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5586° W
Lat	0.0595° N
Alt (km)	35 785.990
Azm	216.6°
Elv	35.2°
RA	22h 22m 01s
Decl	-6° 14' 27"
Range (km)	38 157.751
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	Umbral
MA (phase)	215.2° (152)
TA	215.2°
Orbit #	60
Mag (illum)	Eclipsed


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> And the positive thing [I think] is there is now a velocity [speed] and the period is greater than 1 day [~1441 minutes]. I believe this is "good news", but we need Ken or Lefty [or someone else] to confirm.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Since I am just a beginner in these calculations I have been following along letting Ken and others post data. However until more experienced data are posted here, I will share what I calculate this morning using my astronomy program The Sky which produces data fairly close to those Ken gets with Orbitron.

Using the TLE posted above I see only very slight changes :

Long 102.5619 W
Lat: 0.0328 
Altitude 35785.88 km.

As I am learning this stuff I believe that altitude has to change in order for the orbital period of D10 to change.

That altitude calculates an orbital period of 1436.06 minutes Using the on line NASA calculator at :

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/rocket_sci/orbmech/vel_calc.html

When comparing this altitude with the TLE from Aug 30 my software calculated an altitude of 35785.96 km and a orbitital period exactly the same 1436.06 minutes on Aug 30.

Interceptor posted data on Sept 1:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91383&page=67


> Lon	102.5648° W
> Lat	0.0078° S
> Alt (km)	35 785.700


I don't see much change, so am disappointed now. 
I will wait for the Ken's and the other's interpretations.

Edit: while I was calculating others posted better answers!


----------



## noneroy

Do we really think D* is going to have their engineers in over Labor Day to move the satellite? I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way, I'm honestly unsure of their practices and if that was a common thing. If it were me (and lucky for everyone it isn't), I wouldn't want to start moving a multi-million dollar satellite until everyone I'd need at all the involved companies-departments were around, which would mean Tuesday at the earliest. 

I believe bscheinder (sp??) posted that it'll be the 14th before we see new channels. That makes me think D10 won't be moving today.....

Also, I've seen calculations about how far D10 has to move, but do we know at what velocity it will travel? Would one assume it is simply two burns (one to start and one to stop) or does it require a lot of intricate maneuvers?

Thanks!


----------



## Interceptor

Yep, nothing yet.

It also looks like they have been tweaking Spaceway-1. As of the last tle for Spaceway, it would have drifted into 102.775 on or about September 7. However, the latest tle (from yesterday) shows that drift being corrected, and Spaceway-1 hanging around just above 102.8. Maybe they're just being very cautious with "our" HD!


----------



## John4924

donshan said:


> ........
> I don't see much change, so am disappointed now.
> I will wait for the Ken's and the other's interpretations.
> 
> Edit: while I was calculating others posted better answers!


The only thing I am basing my thinking on is the data from n2yo. I compared data of Spaceway 1 which has virtually "0" speed and altitude of 35786 km.

D10, however, has a speed of ~9 mi/hr and altitude of 35786 km.

So my question to all of the tekkies out there, why is there now a speed with D10? I seem to recall that there was roughly 0 speed when it was first placed in GSO orbit.

Like others here, I am trying to learn of how this stuff works.

Thanks for all the great posts.

Cheers,
John


----------



## Ken984

Look at the apogee v perigee that will tell you if its going to move very far.

Name	DIRECTV10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-03 03:22:21
Orbit # at Epoch	59
Inclination	0.094
RA of A. Node	292.273
Eccentricity	0.0000017
Argument of Perigee	191.161
Revs per day	1.00272335
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	166.482
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	71 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## John4924

Ken984 said:


> Look at the apogee v perigee that will tell you if its going to move very far.
> 
> Name	DIRECTV10
> NORAD #	31862
> COSPAR designator	2007-032-A
> Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-03 03:22:21
> Orbit # at Epoch	59
> Inclination	0.094
> RA of A. Node	292.273
> Eccentricity	0.0000017
> Argument of Perigee	191.161
> Revs per day	1.00272335
> Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
> Semi-major axis	42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	166.482
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	71 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	N/A


So the numbers from n2yo are incorrect?

Apogee: 36177
Perigee: 35603

I don't understand; why the difference??


----------



## Ken984

I don't see where those numbers are listed at n2yo. But with the eccentricity this low I highly doubt that they are correct. Ok I see it now, but I do not see the tle that they derived those numbers from. It is probably very old though, it hasn't been varying that much in weeks.


----------



## oakwcj

n2yo.com tends to lag in getting updates. The best source is www.space-track.org. Registration is free. D10 is in geostationary orbit now. The thrusters have to be fired to change the orbit temporarily to a higher altitude so that it can "drift" to the west. This has all been explained by Lame Lefty and P Smith, among others, earlier in this thread. I know it's very long, but reading just the last few pages ought to get you a pretty good handle on it. Or search for posts by Lame Lefty.


----------



## LameLefty

Every site and program uses slightly different mathematic "engines" (libraries of common routines to calculate the numbers). Some of these round numbers off in various ways, or make particular assumptions about the numbers they are provided, etc. Without knowing details about each one it's impossible to say which one is more "right" than the others. However, that said, after studying this stuff in college a long time ago, and most of my adult life spent tracking STS, Mir, Progress, Soyuz and various satellite missions has shown me that the LEAST accurate tracking info out there is typically provided by sites like N2y0. Standalone programs do a much, much better job and are usually pretty consistent with one another.


----------



## oakwcj

Ken984 said:


> I don't see where those numbers are listed ad n2yo. But with the eccentricity this low I highly doubt that they are correct.


I just checked n2yo and it does have the latest TLE here. I can't explain why they've calculated the apogee and perigee incorrectly.


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> I just checked n2yo and it does have the latest TLE here. I can't explain why they've calculated the apogee and perigee incorrectly.


See my post just above yours - I think their routines are just rounding too much.


----------



## John4924

Ken984 said:


> I don't see where those numbers are listed ad n2yo. But with the eccentricity this low I highly doubt that they are correct.


the numbers are here....

http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862



oakwcj said:


> n2yo.com tends to lag in getting updates. The best source is www.space-track.org. Registration is free. D10 is in geostationary orbit now. The thrusters have to be fired to change the orbit temporarily to a higher altitude so that it can "drift" to the west. This has all been explained by Lame Lefty and P Smith, among others, earlier in this thread. I know it's very long, but reading just the last few pages ought to get you a pretty good handle on it. Or search for posts by Lame Lefty.


n2yo is using the exact same TLEs [see link above] dated today [07246].

Not trying to argue here, just trying to understand why there are differences?


----------



## LameLefty

John4924 said:


> the numbers are here....
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862
> 
> n2yo is using the exact same TLEs [see link above] dated today [07246].
> 
> Not trying to argue here, just trying to understand why there are differences?


Read my last two posts just above.


----------



## Interceptor

My guess is that the data on the search page of D10 on n2yo may be the data that they copied when it first reached GSO. Those numbers don't look like they regularly update on that page, especially considering it also shows inclination of .1 and a perod of 1441.4 min. Looks like the only dynamic on that page is at the bottom, where it shows the current tle.


----------



## LameLefty

Interceptor said:


> My guess is that the data on the search page of D10 on n2yo may be the data that they copied when it first reached GSO. Those numbers don't look like they regularly update on that page, especially considering it also shows inclination of .1 and a perod of 1441.4 min. Looks like the only dynamic on that page is at the bottom, where it shows the current tle.


Folks, PLEASE read all the posts above. Their TLE's are the same as the others' now, they just take longer to update their site in between element sets. With the same numbers, they're less accurate because they're using less accurate calculation routines. All of this has been posted just this morning.


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> TSo my question to all of the tekkies out there, why is there now a speed with D10? I seem to recall that there was roughly 0 speed when it was first placed in GSO orbit.


My Guess. I think n2yo calculates that speed primarily for fast moving satellites and the Space Shuttle so they can draw a tracking line of the satellite projected onto their earth chart. You may recall that right after D10 launch n2yo was showing high speeds and weird tracks vs.the earth map that LameLefy tried to explain over and over again. At high speeds it does draw lines on the chart, but for GSO I think that speed is meaningless.

Edit: one additional point. n2yo allows you to track up to 5 satellites at the same time and plot the tracks on their map. In order to get that computational speed they probably simplify the calculations and round off numbers to speed things up. Accuracy is less important than the user getting a quick response and most users never notice the errors in their approximations or even care . It is the cartoon map that is attractive- they get to see a satellite's path ( approximately).


----------



## John4924

LameLefty said:


> Read my last two posts just above.


I did. But I guess my problem is that if I use n2yo for Spaceway 1 [with TLEs from yesterday], this shows it to be exactly circular at apogee & perigee at 35786 km with inclination of 0.

And we would have to agree that this is correct? So why would n2yo appear to be correct for Spaceway 1, and not Directv 10? It seems to me that if there were inherent round off errors in calculations, they would appear everywhere, and not just with D10.

Sorry, but still trying to learn here.

Cheers,
John


----------



## oakwcj

If you read the wikipedia article on gso, you'll see that the required altitude is 35,786 km, which is precisely where Orbitron places it. If the apogee and perigee shown by n2yo.com were correct, the orbit would be more eccentric and the satellite would not be geostationary. The inclination and eccentricity are two of the elements in the elset. Obviously, there is something inaccurate in n2yo.com's routines.


----------



## Ken984

John4924 said:


> I did. But I guess my problem is that if I use n2yo for Spaceway 1 [with TLEs from yesterday], this shows it to be exactly circular at apogee & perigee at 35786 km with inclination of 0.
> 
> And we would have to agree that this is correct? So why would n2yo appear to be correct for Spaceway 1, and not Directv 10? It seems to me that if there were inherent round off errors in calculations, they would appear everywhere, and not just with D10.
> 
> Sorry, but still trying to learn here.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


It is not the tracking page that is wrong right now, its the summary page that seems to be lagging behind. If you are comparing the summary page for Spaceway1 it is possible that it has been updated and the one for D10 is still lagging. That page does not update automatically.


----------



## Tom Robertson

noneroy said:


> Do we really think D* is going to have their engineers in over Labor Day to move the satellite? I'm not asking that in a sarcastic way, I'm honestly unsure of their practices and if that was a common thing. If it were me (and lucky for everyone it isn't), I wouldn't want to start moving a multi-million dollar satellite until everyone I'd need at all the involved companies-departments were around, which would mean Tuesday at the earliest.
> 
> I believe bscheinder (sp??) posted that it'll be the 14th before we see new channels. That makes me think D10 won't be moving today.....
> 
> Also, I've seen calculations about how far D10 has to move, but do we know at what velocity it will travel? Would one assume it is simply two burns (one to start and one to stop) or does it require a lot of intricate maneuvers?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, Boeing (who is still most likely in control) will have programmed moves for changes at anytime that the people in the control center can follow.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## LameLefty

John4924 said:


> I did. But I guess my problem is that if I use n2yo for Spaceway 1 [with TLEs from yesterday], this shows it to be exactly circular at apogee & perigee at 35786 km with inclination of 0.
> 
> And we would have to agree that this is correct? So why would n2yo appear to be correct for Spaceway 1, and not Directv 10? It seems to me that if there were inherent round off errors in calculations, they would appear everywhere, and not just with D10.
> 
> Sorry, but still trying to learn here.
> 
> Cheers,
> John


I'm pretty sure you can chalk that up to certain assumptions n2y0 makes with certain types of satellites. It thinks it "knows" that GSO sats aren't supposed to move much and so I think it makes some round-off decisions in the calculations that result in different info for different spacecraft, depending on how accurate those assumptions are.

Again, unless you're (1) an expert in the math involved (and I used to be, but it's been nearly 20 years since I did all this stuff myself), AND (2) a programmer with access to the source code used to make the TLEs into usable real-time info (I used to be able to do that but I do NOT have access to the algorithms the site is using), then you just have to do comparisons and decide which source to believe. That site is okay for static vehicles and it's close enough for most guess-timates involving LEO sats. However, for a low-eccentricity/long-period orbit like a comsat in a transfer orbit or GSO, it's just not cutting it compared to stand-alone programs.


----------



## Interceptor

LameLefty said:


> Folks, PLEASE read all the posts above.


I'm not disagreeing with you. My point was that the "Description Data" listed on http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862 shows data that appears not to update when they put the new tles in. I think that data may have been there since the satellite first reached gso. The only way confirm this is to wait until the next tle comes out. If those numbers stay the same, the description numbers are not reflecting "current data".

I do agree that the rounding of numbers in the program will make a considerable difference. But even so, that shouldn't make a difference of 574 km.

It's all moot, as we agree it's not moving yet. I still think they were waiting to get Spaceway-1 adjusted.


----------



## LameLefty

Interceptor said:


> I do agree that the rounding of numbers in the program will make a considerable difference. But even so, that shouldn't make a difference of 574 km.


If the rounding or incorrect starting assumptions are early enough in the process, the errors will propagate at each step in the calculations and yes, they can be hundreds or thousands of miles (or kms) in size. Google for Mars Polar Lander and then think about the programmers who screwed THAT up.  Or more recently, the guys who goofed programming the Cassini mission's radio tranceiver algorithms to deal with Doppler shift . . . Small errors early on can make HUGE differences.


----------



## oakwcj

There is a new TLE, but nothing interesting:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07246.55146617 -.00000115 00000-0 10000-3 0 720
2 31862 000.0914 294.4695 0000144 344.0876 159.6959 01.00271871 603


----------



## Ken984

Maybe the first of the required adjustments....maybe. Current location with new TLE.

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5710° W
Lat	0.0740° S
Alt (km)	35 785.920
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	13h 29m 07s
Decl	-5° 20' 56"
Range (km)	37 012.099
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	285.0° (202)
TA	285.0°
Orbit #	60
Mag (illum)	? (13%)
Constellation	Vir


----------



## JohnH

Seems to be drifting east ever so slowly.


----------



## Ken984

Yep, still not going where we want it to go.


----------



## Smthkd

Speed that Mofo up and point it in the right direction!!!


----------



## mx6bfast

After watching Superan Returns last night I say send Superman up there to move everything over.


----------



## purtman

LameLefty said:


> If the rounding or incorrect starting assumptions are early enough in the process, the errors will propagate at each step in the calculations and yes, they can be hundreds or thousands of miles (or kms) in size. Google for Mars Polar Lander and then think about the programmers who screwed THAT up.  Or more recently, the guys who goofed programming the Cassini mission's radio tranceiver algorithms to deal with Doppler shift . . . Small errors early on can make HUGE differences.


+1
I've seen this on financial calculations and they only use two decimals. You get users to round and round and round and by time it gets to the final numbers, it's way off and the users don't understand why. Each rounding or any rounding early in the calculation reduces the accuracy in the final number.


----------



## rock819

With the launch of SPACEWAY 3 what effect if any will this have on new HD chanels or is it only for high speed stuff?


----------



## syphix

rock819 said:


> With the launch of SPACEWAY 3 what effect if any will this have on new HD chanels or is it only for high speed stuff?


Spaceway 3 will be used by HughesNet for satellite internet, not HD channels.

So, none.

Just an FYI: Spaceway 1 & 2 _were_ also going to be used for satellite internet, but at the last minute were changed to be HDTV sats. Spaceway 4 will _also_ be used by HughesNet for satellite internet.


----------



## EaglePC

Sept 1st was the move .
it should of been at home-base by now.


----------



## Sirshagg

syphix said:


> Spaceway 3 will be used by HughesNet for satellite internet, not HD channels.
> 
> So, none.
> 
> Just an FYI: Spaceway 1 & 2 _were_ also going to be used for satellite internet, but at the last minute were changed to be HDTV sats. Spaceway 4 will _also_ be used by HughesNet for satellite internet.


I thought spaceway3 is D10.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Sirshagg said:


> I thought spaceway3 is D10.


No. While all are built by Boeing and based on the 702 satellite bus design, the Spaceways have a very unique phased array for broadcasting whereas D10/D11/D12 are all more conventional TWTA transponders.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Alan Gordon

Sirshagg said:


> I thought spaceway3 is D10.


Nope!

Spaceway 3 is Spaceway 3. It has nothing to do with DirecTV.

DirecTV 10 is DirecTV 10. It is a DirecTV satellite.

~Alan


----------



## RAD

Sirshagg said:


> I thought spaceway3 is D10.


No, D10/D11 and D12(ground spare) were all originally designed for DBs service. Spaceway 1/2/3 were all originally designed for satellite based internet service but Hughes decided that the demand wasn't there and asked Boeing to retask SW1/2 for DBS service.


----------



## PoitNarf

EaglePC said:


> Sept 1st was the move .
> it should of been at home-base by now.


They received FCC permission to move it on the 1st, but I don't think any of our TLE number crunching junkies have confirmed yet that it has indeed started it's maneuvering towards it's final orbital slot.


----------



## davring

I have been checking in here every so often, it seems as though most of the numbers the "crunchers" get is somewhat dated. NORAD appears to be the most accurated, but D10 is not on their high priority list for tracking.


----------



## LameLefty

davring said:


> I have been checking in here every so often, it seems as though most of the numbers the "crunchers" get is somewhat dated. NORAD appears to be the most accurated, but D10 is not on their high priority list for tracking.


EVERYTHING in Earth orbit is tracked by NORAD in one manner or another - radar, optical, IR, signal tracking, etc. And it's all updated routinely - NORAD typically updates elsets at least once per day, sometimes more often. And yes, this includes D10 when the orbit changes. If the orbit doesn't change in a measurable way, the elset is not updated.


----------



## Ken984

Our numbers come from Spacetrack which gets them from NORAD so they are as up to date as we can provide. There were 2 changes yesterday but so far none today. Right now using yesterdays last tle its at 102.5676° W, so the last change did get it more West than it had been but its still not doing much.


----------



## davring

Thanks Ken and Lefty for keeping us informed. Nice to check in now and then to see if all is progressing as planned. There are others that contribute as well, this has been such a learning experience.


----------



## LameLefty

Just FYI, the Space Track site is run by a private company under contract to the U.S. Air Force Space Command so, barring issues of national security where certain satellites may not be listed or may be listed with intentionally-erroneous data (surveillance satellites, for instance), they ARE the best source around. Celes-Trak provides an easier-access service to Space Track data (no registration required) but the data sometimes takes a few hours to update. So those of us who are a bit more serious about sat tracking usually go ahead and register with Space Track to get the data a bit sooner.


----------



## Sixto

Now down to days (instead of months/weeks) for D10!

Few interesting posts in the other threads with the channel assignments. Look like a good HD list for day-1.

Seems like D10 hasn't moved a degree yet ...


----------



## Tom Robertson

And lets go back to technical details about D10. If I split off a thread "how many views about D10", it will be into the bit bucket...

:backtotop

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## rock819

well they said they would park the bird on a certain day for testing and they did so i have no reason to beleive that any new hd will come on before the 16th


----------



## Racer88

Sixto said:


> Seems like D10 hasn't moved a degree yet ...


Which is an extremely good thing since we only want it to move a few minutes and seconds.


----------



## rock819

Im supprised it hasnt moved today but then again maybee it has just there is no new tle's to let us know how much it might have moved. kind of shoots the whole its not mving because of a holiday thing down i guess


----------



## wilmot3

Directv 10 
1 31862u 07032a 07248.08597704 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 734
2 31862 000.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 01.00271810 610


----------



## wilmot3

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-05 02:03:48
Orbit # at Epoch	61
Inclination	0.088
RA of A. Node	295.093
Eccentricity	0.0000180
Argument of Perigee	348.229
Revs per day	1.00271810
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	348.867
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	73 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## wilmot3

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5627° W
Lat	0.0674° N
Alt (km)	35 786.310
Azm	216.6°
Elv	35.2°
RA	01h 53m 54s
Decl	-6° 13' 55"
Range (km)	38 157.589
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No


----------



## syphix

Ugh. No movement. Why ask for permission to move it as early as Sept. 1st, only to sit on it??

Meanwhile, Dish Network just launched History Channel HD, bring them to 39 HD channels.


----------



## Ken984

syphix said:


> Ugh. No movement. Why ask for permission to move it as early as Sept. 1st, only to sit on it??
> 
> Meanwhile, Dish Network just launched History Channel HD, bring them to 39 HD channels.


They requested the STA for 102.775 because the permanent request had not been granted yet(only place they had permanent permission was at 102.8) and they wanted to do it without waiting, the FCC seems to do the STA thing fairly rapidly but they drag their feet on permanent changes. At least that is what I seemed to gather from what I have read.


----------



## mlcdorgan

It seemed as if D* wanted to be the first to launch history hd ch. and national G. ch. but w/procrastination others (E*) are launching them write underneath there nose, so much for that.

But back to topic , sorry.


----------



## oakwcj

While the changes in the latest elset are incremental, the inclination and eccentricity are getting closer and closer to zero. It appears that they want to get them down before moving the satellite into final position. Maybe Lame Lefty or someone else with more technical knowledge could explain why this makes sense.


----------



## Ken984

I think part of the testing has to be actual broadcasting, so they have to have it in position to uplink and downlink from it before they can complete testing and move it.


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> While the changes in the latest elset are incremental, the inclination and eccentricity are getting closer and closer to zero. It appears that they want to get them down before moving the satellite into final position. Maybe Lame Lefty or someone else with more technical knowledge could explain why this makes sense.


Actually, if you look at the last five elsets (which I can do from my account "home" page on Space-Track.org), you see that inclination is getting closer and closer to zero (which would be the ideal case), but eccentricity has actually nearly tripled at the same time - it's still really, really small, but it's definitely increasing. Take that for what it's worth.


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> I think part of the testing has to be actual broadcasting, so they have to have it in position to uplink and downlink from it before they can complete testing and move it.


I have been wondering about testing the D10 spot beams for LIL service. Before Boeing turns over D10 to D* I am sure they must test and verify that all these spot beams meet their performance specifications, even if it may be some time before D* actually turns on those LIL cities.

This is only hypothetical, but if there were 1000 specific test items that Boeing must complete before turning over D10 to D* for operation and the contract calls for those tests to be complete in order for Boeing to get final payment, I can see even one of the tests that is not finished yet delaying the move even if 999 tests are complete.

To illustrate my point, if the Boeing test plan included a test of aiming the spot beams to all of the planned 75 cities and measuring the signal on the ground at each city to verify it could be done, it would seem to me that a high degree of orbital stability would be required for that stringent a test.

We all expected D10 to be at its test location by Aug 10, and I went back through Ken's postings about then and it was a week later before D10 actually got reasonably stable at 102.6x. Perhaps the paper work that planned a Sept 1 move is the "official schedule", and that was certainly desirable for business reasons. However I suspect there is a real reason D10 has not moved yet that could be a final detail. It does not even have to be a D10 problem. It could be some uplink tests are not done yet.

When our local CBS station went HD, their digital microwave link from studio to tower had an encoder problem that caused pixel dropouts every few minutes. It was awful PQ, and it took the microwave subcontractor a month to replace some equipment before that link was working. This could even be a D10 subcontractor problem on the ground uplinks.

So I am not surprised by the delay in moving on Sept 1- only disappointed. But I bet D* is as anxious as any of us to get D10 running.


----------



## Richi

Could be that if the eccentricity is increasing, D10 could be going, at the apogee to a higher postion and hence make D10 drift westward. Very small changes are all that are needed. Then when D10 is at the desired spot the eccentricity could be changed to zero.


----------



## LameLefty

Richi said:


> Could be that if the eccentricity is increasing, D10 could be going, at the apogee to a higher postion and hence make D10 drift westward. Very small changes are all that are needed. Then when D10 is at the desired spot the eccentricity could be changed to zero.


Yep, that's the idea. 

Remember, the shift is only from slightly under 102.6 where they are now, to slightly under 102.8, where they want to be. In real world terms, it's around 91 miles or so, ballpark.


----------



## oakwcj

Richi said:


> Could be that if the eccentricity is increasing, D10 could be going, at the apogee to a higher postion and hence make D10 drift westward. Very small changes are all that are needed. Then when D10 is at the desired spot the eccentricity could be changed to zero.


Except that the apogee hasn't changed from 35,787 km and there's no sign yet of the wagon train moving west. The eccentricity is only .0000180, although that is about 10x more than the .0000017 of two days ago.


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> Except that the apogee hasn't changed from 35,787 km and there's no sign yet of the wagon train moving west. The eccentricity is only .0000180, although that is about 10x more than the .0000017 of two days ago.


Couple o' thoughts about orbits - apogee and perigee can both change in an orbit. Sometimes you want one to change and sometimes the other, depending on how you plan to carry out the maneuvers to get you from here to there. In a truly circular orbit (and there IS no such thing outside a computer simulation), they are the same but in the real world it's just not so. Also, most of the consumer-friendly stuff we're using to model the orbits and give us pseudo-"tracking" info do have various rounding errors so we have to remember to take calculated altitudes, positions, etc., with a tiny grain of salt. If I had a full suite of modeling and analysis tools like STG, I'd be very confident in my numbers, but I don't, alas.

Now, all of that said, looking at the raw numbers helps get you a real "feel" for what's going on - as we've noted, inclination continues to be tweaked closer and closer to zero (e.g., "equatorial"), which is ideal. That way the sat won't appear to "bobble" up and down relative to the ground antennas receiving our lovely HD content. But the trend in the raw numbers as to eccentricity is clearly up, and becoming more so with each new elset. If newer sets show that trend continuing, we might be confident that "the move" is actually underway.


----------



## LameLefty

New elset:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07247.36458622 -.00000117 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00735
2 31862 000.0891 294.9301 0000152 341.8390 095.0093 01.00271863000615

Unfortunately, eccentricity is down a bit in this set, and inclination is up. So we have to hold off on announcing "the move" as of yet.


----------



## John4924

LameLefty said:


> New elset:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07247.36458622 -.00000117 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00735
> 2 31862 000.0891 294.9301 0000152 341.8390 095.0093 01.00271863000615
> 
> Unfortunately, eccentricity is down a bit in this set, and inclination is up. So we have to hold off on announcing "the move" as of yet.


Lefty, this one is on celestrak....

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07248.08597704 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 734
2 31862 0.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 1.00271810 610

which has a date of 07248 [today]. Is celestrak info wrong? They say it is from Norad?


----------



## Ken984

John4924 said:


> Lefty, this one is on celestrak....
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07248.08597704 -.00000120 00000-0 10000-3 0 734
> 2 31862 0.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 1.00271810 610
> 
> which has a date of 07248 [today]. Is celestrak info wrong? They say it is from Norad?


That 247 set was from yesterday but did not show up until today sometime, that is the 2nd time they have done that. The trend is more obvious now though, each set the inclination is down and the eccentricity is slightly up.


----------



## LameLefty

Ken984 said:


> That 247 set was from yesterday but did not show up until today sometime, that is the 2nd time they have done that. The trend is more obvious now though, each set the inclination is down and the eccentricity is slightly up.


Ken is correct, I did not note the epoch date. NORAD is showing them out of sequence in their "Last 5 Elsets" option.

In which case, he is correct in the conclusion as well that the trend is indeed for decreasing inclination and increasing eccentricity. Which is exactly what we want.  God job spotting my goof, Ken.


----------



## geoliquid

LameLefty said:


> Ken is correct, I did not note the epoch date. NORAD is showing them out of sequence in their "Last 5 Elsets" option.
> 
> In which case, he is correct in the conclusion as well that the trend is indeed for decreasing inclination and increasing eccentricity. Which is exactly what we want.  God job spotting my goof, Ken.


So can it be said that the move has started?


----------



## MIAMI1683

Still waiting on ken and Lefty fo rthe move announcement.


----------



## purtman

What does "decreasing inclination and increasing eccentricity" mean? What do the inclination and eccentricity numbers mean? Also, how does that show as the satellite is moving? Thanks, guys!


----------



## timmac

Hey Purtman, it is ..a mathematical constant that for a given conic section is the ratio of the distances from any point of the conic section to a focus and the corresponding directrix


----------



## LameLefty

geoliquid said:


> So can it be said that the move has started?


I'm not sure yet - if ANOTHER elset (more recent than the one I mistakenly noted) shows another increase in eccentricity, then perhaps we can say yes. Once we see a calculated position anywhere west of 102.6 then we'll know for sure. How long that takes is still just a guess at this point.


----------



## LameLefty

timmac said:


> Hey Purtman, it is ..a mathematical constant that for a given conic section is the ratio of the distances from any point of the conic section to a focus and the corresponding directrix


Ouch! That was mean. 

Okay, Orbital Mechanics for Non-Engineers 101:

Inclination is the angle between the equator and the plane of the orbit. For GSO comsats like D10, you want this to be zero or as close as humanly possible.

Eccentricity is a measure of how oblong or non-circular the orbit is. For GSO comsats at their operational position, you want this to be zero as well, or as close as possible. In this case, however, we're all waiting for D10 to begin it's 90-odd mile journey west from its current test slot to its operational slot, so we're waiting for eccentricity to be "non-zero enough" to get measurable westward motion.


----------



## geoliquid

timmac said:


> Hey Purtman, it is ..a mathematical constant that for a given conic section is the ratio of the distances from any point of the conic section to a focus and the corresponding directrix


----------



## timmac

Too Funny


----------



## Steve Robertson

timmac said:


> Hey Purtman, it is ..a mathematical constant that for a given conic section is the ratio of the distances from any point of the conic section to a focus and the corresponding directrix


That is what I thought it was myself


----------



## Starchild

I couldn't post a URL until I had 5 posts. Sorry.
Try http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 to track D10 in real time.


----------



## Sirshagg

timmac said:


> Hey Purtman, it is ..a mathematical constant that for a given conic section is the ratio of the distances from any point of the conic section to a focus and the corresponding directrix


DUH!



LameLefty said:


> Ouch! That was mean.
> 
> Okay, Orbital Mechanics for Non-Engineers 101:
> 
> Inclination is the angle between the equator and the plane of the orbit. For GSO comsats like D10, you want this to be zero or as close as humanly possible.
> 
> Eccentricity is a measure of how oblong or non-circular the orbit is. For GSO comsats at their operational position, you want this to be zero as well, or as close as possible. In this case, however, we're all waiting for D10 to begin it's 90-odd mile journey west from its current test slot to its operational slot, so we're waiting for eccentricity to be "non-zero enough" to get measurable westward motion.


Thank you that helps. And here I though they would just hit the gas on something pointed west. Seems it's infinitely more complicated. Good thing we have brainics like you guys here to inform the masses.


----------



## timmac

Starchild said:


> I couldn't post a URL until I had 5 posts. Sorry.
> Try http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 to track D10 in real time.


I'm told this site is not that accurate and you are better off getting the updates from here they are more accurate, i'm sure the noggins can give you a better site with better info.:grin:


----------



## LameLefty

timmac said:


> I'm told this site is not that accurate and you are better off getting the updates from here they are more accurate, i'm sure the noggins can give you a better site with better info.:grin:


That's correct. Ignore n2y0 for this kind of stuff - we (people who are regularly posting to DBSTalk) are getting TLEs much faster than n2y0 is getting them, and our software seems to be more accurate than theirs, on top of that. Trust me, it won't take long for people here to spot a new element set and update position information.


----------



## Ken984

Starchild said:


> I couldn't post a URL until I had 5 posts. Sorry.
> Try http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 to track D10 in real time.


We know about that site but it isnt updated as often as we like, so a bunch of us "geeks" get out updates directly and put it in our own software so we are more up to the moment than they are.


----------



## F1 Fan

Starchild said:


> I couldn't post a URL until I had 5 posts. Sorry.
> Try http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862 to track D10 in real time.


Sorry but that is not real time.

LameLefty and Ken are giving the newest figures that can be publicly viewed and even then they cant get real time.

Since the launch of D10 we have been relying on these two and others to give us the up to date position. And answering all our questions and giving us Satellite Positioning and Telemetry 101; 102 & 110. (not forgetting 103b :lol: )


----------



## Starchild

Thank you. I am as anxious as you all are for the new bird to be up and running. At least you are willing to accept a rookie to the site.


----------



## F1 Fan

Starchild said:


> Thank you. I am as anxious as you all are for the new bird to be up and running. At least you are willing to accept a rookie to the site.


:welcome_s to the forums


----------



## Ken984

Starchild said:


> Thank you. I am as anxious as you all are for the new bird to be up and running. At least you are willing to accept a rookie to the site.


Always glad to have new members, welcome and enjoy yourself, great bunch of people here!


----------



## Smthkd

Welcome!!! BTW: We PASSED 200k mark!  Oh well, time to look forward to something else!


----------



## donshan

Smthkd said:


> Welcome!!! BTW: We PASSED 200k mark!  Oh well, time to look forward to something else!


 How about looking forward to D10 reaching 102.775 W soon with the first post of it on this thread!


----------



## EaglePC

Me all CONFUSED

That's correct. Ignore n2y0 for this kind of stuff.
Is the Sat moving to home now?
Is it a private thing we don't know the location its moving (D10 missing in action)
Do you think DirecTV want's to suprise us ?

I be amaze if Sept 1st was the moving date and DirecTV could sit on it for 30 days.

9/5/07 thought we might have a fresher reaction to Sat 103(b) still on the 0's.


----------



## gslater

Been lurking here keeping an eye out probably like a lot of other people. Any idea when we might be able to expect another elset that will either confirm a move or not since the last one seemed to indicate that the move might be starting but was not difinitive.


----------



## Ken984

gslater said:


> Been lurking here keeping an eye out probably like a lot of other people. Any idea when we might be able to expect another elset that will either confirm a move or not since the last one seemed to indicate that the move might be starting but was not difinitive.


New tle can come at any time, i check every hr or so, I am sure the others check theirs on some kind of loose schedule also. When it happens it won't take long for somebody to post it here.


----------



## Chip Moody

LameLefty said:


> Inclination is the angle between the equator and the plane of the orbit. For GSO comsats like D10, you want this to be zero or as close as humanly possible.


 So if you imagined a 2-dimensional plane "cutting through" the earth along the equator - a 0 degree inclination would mean that the satellite is also sitting exactly on this plane?

And when there's a deviation off the plane, where is the angle measured in relation? Center of the earth?

Thanks,
- Chip (Used to love Math)


----------



## rock819

HAS THE BIRD STARTED MOVING YET ? oops sorry but i am getting excited didnt mean to yell lol


----------



## LameLefty

Chip Moody said:


> So if you imagined a 2-dimensional plane "cutting through" the earth along the equator - a 0 degree inclination would mean that the satellite is also sitting exactly on this plane?


Yep, exactly.



> And when there's a deviation off the plane, where is the angle measured in relation? Center of the earth?


It's the angular difference between the plane of the orbit and the plane of the equator, as measured at any arbitrary point normal to the intersection of the two (such that both appear to be straight lines). Make sense?


----------



## Dave

Ok, my best guest on when they will start moving D10 to the 102.775 is:

SEPTEMBER 11, 2007. All they asked for in there request was to start moving D10 to its permanent location was on or about September 1, 2007. 

There are also many post about D10 going live on SEPTEMBER 15, 2007.

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


----------



## EaglePC

Dave said:


> Ok, my best guest on when they will start moving D10 to the 102.775 is:
> 
> SEPTEMBER 11, 2007. All they asked for in there request was to start moving D10 to its permanent location was on or about September 1, 2007.
> 
> There are also many post about D10 going live on SEPTEMBER 15, 2007.
> 
> :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:


Well some has said the bird is moving ,it is just not going where it should be going.
the bird was moving since Sept1st the atmosphere is not going all that well.
hope this won't be a major problem...


----------



## wilmot3

Directv 10 
1 31862u 07032a 07249.11580049 -.00000123 00000-0 10000-3 0 747
2 31862 000.0843 295.5822 0000190 340.5452 007.8154 01.00271828 625


----------



## wilmot3

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-06 02:46:45
Orbit # at Epoch	62
Inclination	0.084
RA of A. Node	295.582
Eccentricity	0.0000190
Argument of Perigee	340.545
Revs per day	1.00271828
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	7.815
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	74 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## wilmot3

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5589° W
Lat	0.0634° N
Alt (km)	35 786.370
Azm	216.6°
Elv	35.2°
RA	01h 40m 32s
Decl	-6° 14' 11"
Range (km)	38 157.823
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	112.2° (79)
TA	112.2°
Orbit #	62
Mag (illum)	? (86%)


----------



## EaglePC

Lon 102.5589° W

thats funny
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/printthread.php?t=357002&p=5284584


----------



## syphix

EaglePC said:


> Lon 102.5589° W
> 
> thats funny
> http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/printthread.php?t=357002&p=5284584


What's funny?  If it's the post you're linking to, um...that was posted back in JUNE and was accurate at the time.

If it's the position of D10, what's funny about it?


----------



## timmac

I think the funny is that its moving the other direction


----------



## Ken984

The trend we were looking at still holds true, but they didn't change much with the last set, eccentricity is still higher than the last set but not enough to make a very noticeable difference, inclination is down again also. We are getting there, just not as quickly as we would like.


----------



## donshan

Ken, LameLefty (& others):

Did anyone keep any TLE data on Spaceway 1 back in August when they drifted it slightly out of the way to move D10 into testing position ? That slight move for SW1 is somewhat similar to the size of this D10 move and I was wondering just how much Spaceway 1 TLEs changed during than move and how easily it was detectable in the SW1 TLE numbers.


----------



## John4924

donshan said:


> Ken, LameLefty (& others):
> 
> Did anyone keep any TLE data on Spaceway 1 back in August when they drifted it slightly out of the way to move D10 into testing position ? That slight move for SW1 is somewhat similar to the size of this D10 move and I was wondering just how much Spaceway 1 TLEs changed during than move and how easily it was detectable in the SW1 TLE numbers.


donshan, at the celestrak site here....

http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/archives/

they have historical data. Maybe someone with time today can do some investigating?

I did notice that GEO sats are not there, but you can fill out a form to request?

Cheers,
John


----------



## LameLefty

Here are the last five elsets for Spaceway 1:



Code:


SPACEWAY 1
1 28644U 05015A   07248.27172321 -.00000119  00000-0  10000-3 0  4172
2 28644 000.0173 315.0735 0000064 044.4522 339.4027 01.00271935  8725
1 28644U 05015A   07245.34011889 -.00000109  00000-0  10000-3 0  4166
2 28644 000.0193 293.3504 0000100 058.8834 008.4233 01.00271378  8706
1 28644U 05015A   07241.41038069 -.00000106  00000-0  10000-3 0  4155
2 28644 000.0190 299.1785 0000139 053.0861 029.8221 01.00271894  8669
1 28644U 05015A   07239.55807591 -.00000106  00000-0  00000+0 0  4123
2 28644 000.0366 296.2505 0000127 108.5857 028.5896 01.00271232  8659
1 28644U 05015A   07239.15273863 -.00000105  00000-0  10000-3 0  4144
2 28644 000.0375 296.2559 0000127 108.5732 242.2723 01.00271329  8640


----------



## oakwcj

I let Orbitron's simulation run out to 24 hours ahead using the new TLE. Right now the longitude is 102.5601. It will move slightly to the west for a while, but by tomorrow at this time it will be at 102.5589. Maybe when the solar winds pick up


----------



## MIAMI1683

I take it they aren't in a hurry here. Maybe by next weekend we will see life from it. Lefty how slow can 91 miles be. I thought the move would be much faster once it started, to give them time to set the orbit again and all, and also check thier uplinks and downlinks. I guess I was wrong.


----------



## timmac

Thats the wrong way Oak! What's up I thought if you go up it goes west if you go down it goes east. Give me that joystick!:eek2:


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> donshan, at the celestrak site here....
> 
> http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/archives/
> 
> they have historical data. Maybe someone with time today can do some investigating?
> 
> I did notice that GEO sats are not there, but you can fill out a form to request?
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Thanks, I sent the form in to see if I can get the data from mid July to present. If I find anything interesting I will post it for interpretation. I am just curious what the TLE data show when they slowly drifted Spaceway 1 earlier.


----------



## Interceptor

MIAMI1683 said:


> I take it they aren't in a hurry here. Maybe by next weekend we will see life from it.


I think that's exactly what we're seeing. The eccentricity is spooling up, which is ever so slowly adjusting the altitude. Lefty or Ken, correct me if I'm wrong here, but shouldn't the eccentricity be the first thing that indicates the move is about to take place? It has been steadily increasing over the last four keps.

Mike


----------



## LameLefty

Well, the oldest of the sets I posted above is about 9 or 10 days old now and using today's date, Spaceway 1 would've been at about 102.84W. Current data puts it around 102.875 or so. I don't have anything earlier.


----------



## Tigerman73

We're probably looking at this weekend or early next week before it starts to move. If you believe in the D* activates channels on Wednesday theory, it would need to start moving by Saturday if they are going to take 3 days to slide it over. If it is going to be next weekend before its active we're looking at Monday or Tuesday before it will begin to drift.


----------



## bakers12

These TLEs for Spaceway 1 go back to July 6, 2007.
View attachment 6476


----------



## macmantis

I just noticed on my new space-track account that a second TLE showed up for yesterday. 

I also noticed if you do a seach for 31862 and not use favorites they return in time order, where favorites seems to always give them in the order they entered the database.

MacMantis


----------



## Ken984

I just checked SpaceTrack, they are now listing a 2nd tle from yesterday that was not there earlier, it shows the exact same eccentricity although inclination is gradually getting lower. I believe the next thing we should see is some kind of verification from Bschnieder that D* has uplinked some channels, hopefully that can happen later today or tomorrow at the latest.



Code:


1 31862U 07032A   07249.11580049 -.00000123  00000-0  10000-3 0   747
2 31862 000.0843 295.5822 0000190 340.5452 007.8154 01.00271828   625
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07248.34561698 -.00000121 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00748
2 31862 000.0860 295.5926 0000190 340.5235 089.8012 01.00271851000627
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07248.08597704 -.00000120  00000-0  10000-3 0   734
2 31862 000.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 01.00271810   610
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07247.36458622 -.00000117 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00735
2 31862 000.0891 294.9301 0000152 341.8390 095.0093 01.00271863000615
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07246.55146617 -.00000115  00000-0  10000-3 0   720
2 31862 000.0914 294.4695 0000144 344.0876 159.6959 01.00271871   603


----------



## LameLefty

Thanks guys - I just got back inside (I keep a beater guitar at work and take it outside to play for awhile during lunch) and saw that as well. 

I think Ken may be right inasmuch as the only significant change from the "new" older TLE set is that the inclination has come down. I hope that the next change increases eccentricity further and raises the apogee so "The Move" (with apologies to Seinfeld fans everywhere!) can begin.


----------



## James Long

Remember this is the TECH THREAD ... 
(Too many posts moved --- next time it is the bit bucket.)

:backtotop


----------



## JohnH

Tech thread. Any signal sightings?


----------



## flyingtigerfan

No signal sightings. But then again, the landscaping guy (new house, new grass) whacked the dish yesterday so I may not be the best source.

Coming here every day and following this stuff is like waiting for water to boil. You know it'll get there, but only if you go do something else.


----------



## donshan

bakers12 said:


> These TLEs for Spaceway 1 go back to July 6, 2007.
> View attachment 9897


Thanks for the post. I promptly got the data set too after my request, but your posting it will let the experts here also look at the "drift" in Spaceway 1 and see if it is detectable in in the TLE data. A quick look at this data set with my limited beginner view is that TLE changes were very small with a couple of interesting dates for the inclination values. However I would guess D10 inclination changes will be small too. Also the inclination of D10 is higher than SW1.

And please correct any of my mistakes here. I am posting this only to learn more. I believe that one learns best by doing "homework" by doing the math yourself, and then let "teacher" correct it.

I note that for Spaceway 1 there is a small increase in the inclination values on JD 202(July 21) and on JD 233(Aug 21) and JD 239(Aug 27) and then they go back down. I have not had time yet to see if the Longitude positions changes at those times. and my software does not give as much info as others here.

There is a Julian date calendar on line to help convert those day numbers in the TLE to real dates at:

http://modland.nascom.nasa.gov/browse/calendar.html

There is an example of the date calculations in the TLE on the NASA page:

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html


----------



## pattcap

Great info here, but I have a question.
Getting D10 to its final position is an important part of the process. My question is, does it have to be in its exact spot for everything to work? 
Could D* successfully turn channels on before it reaches its final location? 
Is that final fractional degree that important when the dish is ##,#### miles away? 

Thanks


----------



## F1 Fan

pattcap said:


> Is that final fractional degree that important when the dish is ##,#### miles away?
> 
> Thanks


only to the FCC


----------



## bakers12

pattcap said:


> Great info here, but I have a question.
> Getting D10 to its final position is an important part of the process. My question is, does it have to be in its exact spot for everything to work?
> Could D* successfully turn channels on before it reaches its final location?


The FCC license does not allow them to be operational until they are parked. That is, within 0.05 degrees the assigned slot.


----------



## Smthkd

I emailed Mr. Mercer to see if Directv10 is in it final position and here is his answer:

_It is. Still testing it but that should be completed soon. _

*Robert Mercer 
Director, Public Relations 
DIRECTV, Inc. *
(310) 726-4683

________________________________________
*From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 11:51 AM
To: Mercer, Robert G
Subject: Directv10
Good Evening Mr. Mercer*

I'm Sorry to bother you know that you have other important matters to consider. But, I have a question and its been wrecking my and others mind on various DirecTV forums. Is Directv10 your MPEG4 satellite resting in its final geo. orbit? Believe it or not, that's it! No more questions! Your answer will be greatly appreciated! Thanks

Cxxxxxxxx Sxxxxx
DirecTV sub and fan of course!!!


----------



## syphix

No offense, but Mr. Mercer might be a little confused...unless NORAD has been giving us false numbers. The last TLE had it still at about 102.55, and not moving west, moving EAST. DirecTV themselves have said the actual move (which, as of the last TLE, had not been confirmed to begin yet) would take 2-3 days.

I'll trust TLE's and transponder readings before I trust someone from D*, unless they're a TECHNICIAN.


----------



## JLucPicard

I doubt it was Mercer responding anyway. Probably just another CSR!


----------



## John4924

May be semantics, here. But could you say that the bird is in the final geo orbit [correct altitude, sync'd with earth rotation] and just NOT in the final position within that orbit? Any comments?


----------



## Ken984

Yes the altitude is right, and its in its assigned testing spot, only about 100 miles left to go. But those are important miles!!


----------



## John4924

Ken984 said:


> Yes the altitude is right, and its in its assigned testing spot, only about 100 miles left to go. But those are important miles!!


I was commenting on Mr. Mercer saying that it is in final geo. Just trying to make sense of what he said.

And, by the way, GO SAINTS!!!


----------



## Sixto

Smthkd said:


> I emailed Mr. Mercer to see if Directv10 is in it final position and here is his answer:


Interesting.

I wonder if it's in the "final geo. orbit" but not yet at the 102.775º W.L. orbital location.

The actual question is whether D10 is at the final 102.775º W.L. orbital location. From the posts above, it appears that it may not be.


----------



## Ken984

Well not to take sides, but my money is on NORAD being correct that its not at 102.775. According to NORAD it is currently at 102.5606° W. Unless a new tle comes out showing differently I will stick behind that statement.


----------



## oakwcj

Ken984 said:


> Well not to take sides, but my money is on NORAD being correct that its not at 102.775. According to NORAD it is currently at 102.5606° W. Unless a new tle comes out showing differently I will stick behind that statement.


Mr. Mercer is just a PR guy. I'll go with NORAD too.


----------



## Smthkd

Mr. Mercer has been a great source of information for us in the past and he's more than a PR guy! Although I realize Norad has solid info, I also realize that a top exec. inside has more info about whats going on too!


----------



## Smuuth

Sixto said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I wonder if it's in the "final geo. orbit" but not yet at the 102.775º W.L. orbital location.


My understanding is that if it is moving east (as contrasted to appearing stationary), then it is actually in a lower altitude orbit than where it would be if geostationary. To move west, it will have to be put in a higher altitude orbit, and thus slow down relative to the earth. Of course, I may be totally incorrect, and if so, I apologize to those more knowledgeable.


----------



## syphix

No new TLE's, so there _might_ be a lot going on...and we just won't know it until tomorrow morning (or whenever the next TLE comes out).


----------



## GutBomb

Smthkd said:


> Mr. Mercer has been a great source of information for us in the past and he's more than a PR guy! Although I realize Norad has solid info, I also realize that a top exec. inside has more info about whats going on too!


Hi up execs are great for getting big picture information, but not technical details. I imagine he 's probably just underinformed.


----------



## jaycrow

This is an uninformed question, but isn't it possible that D10 could start providing a signal before it reached its final orbital location? I don't see why they can't fully test and deliver the satellite from whatever location it's at, especially considering it's within a quarter degree of said location. As long as our dishes are pointed at it, and our receivers are told where to look, it seems they could theoretically make it live as soon as they're ready.

What am I missing?

On a side note, I really enjoy these forums. You guys are a wealth of knowledge. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Smthkd

They could only if they had permission to by the FCC, but they don't! D* only have approval to test at 102.6 and transmit @ 102.775 (which is temporary unless they get permission to be there permenantly)!


----------



## purtman

FCC won't allow transmission until it gets to 102.775.


----------



## Sixto

Question that's been bugging me for a while ...

Why couldn't D* just put D10 at 102.775º W.L. orbital location and do all testing at that location?

Why did they need to test at one location and then move to the final production location?


----------



## Ken984

That location is too close to Spaceway1's spot and if there were problems it could have interrupted service, at least thats what i think. Normally testing slots are nowhere near final locations.


----------



## Smthkd

Plus the test location is different also because D* has not gotten full aquisition of the sat yet. The testing is being done mostly by Boeing. When complete it will be turned over to D* who will then do there final testing then move it to its transmission location to begin broadcasting.


----------



## Sixto

Ken984 said:


> That location is too close to Spaceway1's spot and if there were problems it could have interrupted service, at least thats what i think. Normally testing slots are nowhere near final locations.


That makes sense.

So the idea is to test far enough away from 103 to avoid signal issues with Spaceway 1. Then once signal issues are verified to not be a problem, move to 103. Seems fair.

I guess if there was not already another satellite at 103 then they could have done all testing at the final location?


----------



## Ken984

No I don't think they could have because AMC 1 is at 102.936. Spaceway1 was tested somewhere else before it was parked. I just re-read your last line, and i agree without any other sats in the vicinity it should have been ok to test from 102.775.


----------



## bbaleno

Smthkd said:


> Plus the test location is different also because D* has not gotten full aquisition of the sat yet. The testing is being done mostly by Boeing. When complete it will be turned over to D* who will then do there final testing then move it to its transmission location to begin broadcasting.


My guess is that it has been turned over to D* 
I would think the channels that are seen in engineering mode should be evidence. I also think we will see HD within a week. or whenever they choose. didn't those channel go live about a week ago?

can someone with knowlege enlighten me on what D* might do on their side for testing, besides uplink/downlink tests and tweeking.


----------



## Ken984

bbaleno said:


> My guess is that it has been turned over to D*
> I would think the channels that are seen in engineering mode should be evidence. I also think we will see HD within a week. or whenever they choose. didn't those channel go live about a week ago?
> 
> can someone with knowlege enlighten me on what D* might do on their side for testing, besides uplink/downlink tests and tweeking.


The channels are not live as far as we know, they are showing in the guide in Engineering mode, so as yet D* has not uplinked anything to it. DirecTV does their own TTC also so they have to check that their systems can control the sat as well.


----------



## bbaleno

Ken984 said:


> The channels are not live as far as we know, they are showing in the guide in Engineering mode, so as yet D* has not uplinked anything to it. DirecTV does their own TTC also so they have to check that their systems can control the sat as well.


It didn't dawn on me until you said it that it was just in the guide.
I overlook the fact that D* might just want play with it a bit and make sure they are able to control it. 

can I retract my previous prediction?


----------



## gregory

bbaleno said:


> can I retract my previous prediction?


No


----------



## bbaleno

Do you think the tle's that are being seen showing D10 moving oposite of what is expected might be D* getting comfortable with their new toy?


----------



## Ken984

Its impossible to say, I would hope that they are purposeful in making it exactly perfect so they can try the rest of the systems.


----------



## davring

bbaleno said:


> Do you think the tle's that are being seen showing D10 moving oposite of what is expected might be D* getting comfortable with their new toy?


I know they would not be making any more moves than absolutely necessary, you can't call the fuel truck to top off the tank. I understand that fuel is critical to the life of the sat, if it runs out it becomes quite useless. If I am wrong someone please step in and set me straight.


----------



## James Long

The question would be if they are actually burning fuel.
They could have given it a nudge and just let it drift.
It isn't like every mile costs an exact amount of fuel.
It is the starting and stopping that costs.


----------



## donshan

I worked several hours this afternoon with the Spaceway 1 TLE history data set to see if any drift could be detected. I thought I would post the initial results for others to check and comment on, because they seem to indicate Spaceway 1 drifted very slightly West during July and early August, but has been more or less stationary at 102.8 W +/- since mid August.



> JD JD fraction Date W Longitude
> 192 0.272063	7/11	102.809
> 197 0.551886	7/16	102.804
> 205 0.441687	7/24	102.830
> 212 0.358527	7/30	102.853
> 216 0.434034 8/04	102.863
> 222 0.343043	8/10	102.890
> 233 0.434450	8/21	102.879
> 245 0.340110 9/01 102.890
> 248 0.271723 9/05 102.877


 I found the calculations more tedious that I expected because I found I needed to set my The Sky astronomy program to the exact same Julian day and day fraction as the TLE data set. I set up an Excel spreadsheet to do the time calculations and correct for my -7 hr from UTC and in the end rounded to the nearest hour to save some time. Changing the minutes and seconds in the calculation only changed the outer decimals. I hope it is right but there were a lot of copy/pastes and formulas to enter so this is a first draft for comments.

The Sky has a time skip forward function that can be set to scales of seconds, minutes, hours, or days. I set it for hours and watched Spaceway 1 wobble back and forth during 24 hours in a simulation. This showed me visually what others have posted, that these orbits are not perfect in keeping SW1 exactly fixed over one spot on earth.

The message for looking at D10 moves is that, it too is moving back and forth vs. earth longitude in its present slot. Calculating the position at times after the TLE set will probably show this same back and forth. So one person's position data can vary from another depending on the time that they did the computer calculation.

Also bear with me as this is the first time I have ever tried this!

This time input was informative as it showed rounding the day/time makes a difference in the decimal accuracy of the calculated Spaceway 1 longitude and other data. I have included 3 decimals on the longitude, but those values vary with the hour of the calculation. Also I did not post the latitude as it is close to zero in all calculations indicating SW 1 is over the equator.

It took D* about four weeks to "drift" Spaceway 1 over less than 0.1 degree! SW1 drifted about half as far as D10 needs to go to get to 102.775 W. OMG! I hope it doesn't take weeks to drift D10 too!:eek2::eek2:

I think I see some extra fuel being burned!

Although as I understand with the Xenon Ion propulsion most off the energy comes from electric power off the solar panels.

*"Maximum Warp Power Scotty!"
*
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html


----------



## cnmsales

This would line up with the Sept 19th date.


----------



## Smthkd

cnmsales said:


> This would line up with the Sept 19th date.


Not if they started early per there request to the FCC as being ahead of schedule. This would put them more at the 16th like Earl and others are saying!


----------



## harsh

Sixto said:


> Why did they need to test at one location and then move to the final production location?


If you read the terms and conditions of an STA, there may be severe penalties if a testing satellite interferes in any way with the function of a working satellite. This would doubtless include DIRECTV 10 interfering with Spaceway 1.

It is also likely that if the maneuvering system is found to be unstable, they don't want to get it anywhere near another satellite.


----------



## Chip Moody

LameLefty said:


> It's the angular difference between the plane of the orbit and the plane of the equator, as measured at any arbitrary point normal to the intersection of the two (such that both appear to be straight lines). Make sense?


 Yeah, so much so that I feel compelled to say "Oh, duh!" 

Thanks...

- Chip


----------



## kaysersoze

Smthkd said:


> They could only if they had permission to by the FCC, but they don't! D* only have approval to test at 102.6 and transmit @ 102.775 (which is temporary unless they get permission to be there permenantly)!


So are we talking about 2 different kinds of transmissions, because I thought the sat was being tested prior to being at the 102.6 slot?


----------



## Smthkd

102.6 is the testing slot! The permanent slot will be 102.8 (unless they get they final approval for 102.775. They already have temporary permission for this slot - 102.775- until the approval)!


----------



## Ken984

The length of time it took Spaceway 1 to drift was probably due to the fact it was in service and broadcasting, if they moved it faster it may have disrupted service. Hopefully it will be as "quick" as they have said "3 days".


----------



## MIAMI1683

Lefty or Ken, once the move is started (assuming it hasn't) will there be alot of time spent trying to get the orbit perfectly circular again?


----------



## LameLefty

It depends on how precisely they can increase apogee to begin the drift, then decrease it again to slide back into a correct GSO altitude at the operational slot, without inducing any other major disruptions to the orbit (such as increasing inclination). We won't know until "the Move" starts, and I don't think it has yet unless new TLEs come out showing a major change in position. 

I'm going to be out of the office doing my real job most of this morning, so I'll trust Ken, Don and the others to post info as it turns up.


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> The length of time it took Spaceway 1 to drift was probably due to the fact it was in service and broadcasting, if they moved it faster it may have disrupted service. Hopefully it will be as "quick" as they have said "3 days".


Good point. They could have used the low thrust Xips over many weeks because they had plenty of time to do it. I was hoping to find a specific day that they did a "burn" and changed the orbit of Spaceway 1 to move it. I did not find that. To move D10 in three days maybe they plan to use the "liquid apogee engine".

From the Boeing fact sheet on the D10, it has two types of propulsion, a) "liquid apogee engine- 100 lbf", plus b) two Xips units for station keeping( with two spares). That factsheet lists the D10 mass as 13,360 Lbs at launch, but that changes to "8,157 lbs -in orbit beginning of life.". The most obvious reason to "lose" 5203 lb. is the fuel used for the initial orbit adjustment maneuvers. with the liquid engine. If they planned fuel use well maybe they have chemical fuel left that was a planned allocation for burns for this final 3 day move to get to 102.775 W quickly. If so we may see a different pattern in the D10 TLE data to move D10 in three days than for SW 1 over weeks. They will then have the two Xips units reserved for 15 years of station keeping and would not need the apogee engine again until maybe one last "end of life " burn.

The "real" rocket scientists here should comment on my amateur speculations.  
Such as are the Xips units powerful enough to move D10 in three days or is the liquid appogee engine required to do it that quickly?

If they do an apogee engine burn the D10 data may show a bigger TLE difference more quickly than was in SW1 TLE data.


----------



## F1 Fan

LameLefty said:


> I'm going to be out of the office doing my real job most of this morning, so I'll trust Ken, Don and the others to post info as it turns up.


You mean tracking D10 and keeping DBSTalk informed is not your real job?:eek2:

Seriously I want to thank you, Ken, Don and others for keeping us informed and teaching us amateurs on the way. I have been "tracking" D10 since launch with your help in here.


----------



## dhowse

Donshan,

The propellent used by the main kick motor is probably the same fuel used by the small station keeping thrusters. When it comes to fuel management "gooooo slooooow" is the name of the game. The orbital analysts that figure this stuff up (10# brain guys) spend a lot of time optomizing the burn plans to use the least amount of fuel. Don't forget, the two main things that determine a satellite's usable operational life are battery capacity and fuel. Conserving fuel now means more fuel available later in the mission. The longer youu stay operational in orbit the more use ($'s) you get from your satellite.

Doug
And yes, I am a rocket scientist.


----------



## dhowse

As far as TLE's: For Geo birds they are not updated that often (something like every two weeks or so if I recall). D10 could already be in its operational location. You just won't know it until a new TLE comes out.

EaglePC: Believe it or not collision avoidance pretty much operates on the Big sky, little satellite principle. It's up to the satellite operators to avoid collisions. Of course it's in their best interest as well. The problem is when you have a dead bird near your or bital slot. It makes orbital maneuvers that much more interesting. That's why you pay your orbital analysts big bucks.

Doug


----------



## donshan

dhowse said:


> Donshan,
> 
> The propellent used by the main kick motor is probably the same fuel used by the small station keeping thrusters. When it comes to fuel management "gooooo slooooow" is the name of the game. The orbital analysts that figure this stuff up (10# brain guys) spend a lot of time optomizing the burn plans to use the least amount of fuel. Don't forget, the two main things that determine a satellite's usable operational life are battery capacity and fuel. Conserving fuel now means more fuel available later in the mission. The longer youu stay operational in orbit the more use ($'s) you get from your satellite.
> .


I only know what I read about it at Boeing's site and D10 is built on the Boeing 702 and D10 has both a "liquid apogee engine" and two XIPS which use different fuels, don't they? XIPS uses xenon gas and electric power from the solar panels. This link has a graphic of the station keeping XIPS system:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html

and D10 specs on page 2:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf

Boeing quote from the first link, with bold emphasis added:



> The xenon ion propulsion system, or XIPS (pronounced "zips"), is the culmination of nearly four decades of research into the use of electric propulsion as an alternative to conventional chemical propulsion. Available on the Boeing 601HP, or high power, and Boeing 702 satellite models, the increased efficiency possible with XIPS allows for a reduction in propellant mass of up to 90% for a satellite designed for 12 to 15 years operation. Less propellant results in reduced cost for launch, an increase in payload, or an increase in satellite lifetime, or any combination of the above.
> 
> Whatever the choice, the results are a sizable competitive margin.
> The on-board XIPS system is used primarily for spacecraft stationkeeping. Small thrusts are required to correct for the tug of solar or lunar gravity and to reposition the satellite in its proper orbit and altitude. A satellite's lifetime as well as its launch weight is thus determined by the amount of fuel aboard for its thruster system.
> While most current satellites use a chemical bipropellant propulsion system, a XIPS-equipped satellite instead uses the impulse generated by a thruster ejecting electrically charged particles at high velocities*.XIPS requires only one propellant, xenon, and does its stationkeeping job using a fraction of that required by a chemical propellant system.
> *
> The heart of the XIPS is the ion thruster, measuring less than 10 inches across. Two other key units *include a tank containing xenon gas* and a power processor.


----------



## oakwcj

dhowse said:


> As far as TLE's: For Geo birds they are not updated that often (something like every two weeks or so if I recall). D10 could already be in its operational location. You just won't know it until a new TLE comes out.


Up to this point, there have been new TLE's on at least a daily basis. Since DirecTV's application for Special Temporary Authority stated that it would take a few days to drift the D10 into place, I'd be really surprised if it were already at 102.775, given that it's only been 24 hours since the last TLE.


----------



## Ken984

My understanding is that Norad updates the TLE for the sats daily(sometimes multiple times), *IF* they detect changes, SpaceTrack usually has them listed fairly quickly, am I totally wrong in my thinking?


----------



## donshan

Ken984 said:


> My understanding is that Norad updates the TLE for the sats daily(sometimes multiple times), *IF* they detect changes, SpaceTrack usually has them listed fairly quickly, am I totally wrong in my thinking?


That is what I understand too. NORAD does not update the TLE of every GSO satellite every day in that long list ( about 356 GSOs ) since most do not change much at all. That Spaceway 1 data had many gaps of several days between TLE updates.

Since you (and several others) do such a good job of watching for new TLEs, I don't feel I need to spend time doing it , so I am just waiting for new TLE posts here.


----------



## oakwcj

Wait no more:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07250.43441108 -.00000125 00000-0 10000-3 0 759
2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797 649

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	09-07-2007 10:25:33
Orbit # at Epoch	64
Inclination	0.081
RA of A. Node	296.010
Eccentricity	0.0000210
Argument of Perigee	337.895
Revs per day	1.00271797
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	126.039
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary

Eccentricity is up a bit, but apogee isn't.


----------



## wilmot3

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07250.43441108 -.00000125 00000-0 10000-3 0 759
2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797 649 

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-07 10:25:33
Orbit # at Epoch	64
Inclination	0.081
RA of A. Node	296.010
Eccentricity	0.0000210
Argument of Perigee	337.895
Revs per day	1.00271797
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	126.039
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.5598° W
Lat	0.0122° S
Alt (km)	35 786.880
Azm	216.6°
Elv	35.2°
RA	07h 45m 53s
Decl	-6° 19' 09"
Range (km)	38 164.492
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	205.7° (146)
TA	205.7°
Orbit #	64
Mag (illum)	? (16%)


----------



## wilmot3

:lol: oh by 1 min


----------



## syphix

So, still sitting still, pretty much??



> Lon	102.5598° W


I really thought we would've seen some movement by now...

At this rate, Orbitron has it arriving at about 102.7757 at 3:49am Eastern Time on Nov. 8th!! :eek2:


----------



## Interceptor

Just a note on something I discovered on Space-Track. I look at that site almost every day for D10 updates. I also retrieve the last five elsets each time I key in the Object ID. After noticing posts a few pages back, asking about archival data on the sats, I realized the search page on Space-Track will allow you to request between certain dates, and it will return all elsets. No need to request archival data be sent to you. I just tested by looking up DirecTV-1 and got elsets all the way back to 1993.


----------



## oakwcj

It's more stationary than ever. According to Orbitron, it will be in exactly the same longitude in 24 hours. Since D* requested the STA to begin the move on September 1, something must be holding it up. Too bad we're reduced to reading weak tea leaves.


----------



## syphix

oakwcj said:


> It's more stationary than ever. According to Orbitron, it will be in exactly the same longitude in 24 hours.


Correct, but it also shows that 48 hours from now it's drifting very, VERY slowly WEST...so at least it's not moving east anymore.


----------



## PWenger

Might I suggest...do you think the request might have just been E* insurance? They never intended to move it early, but were afraid Charlie might pull an end around and start broadcasting a ton of new channels (I have no idea of their available bandwidth, but I can certainly envision him "stealing" bandwith by decreasing PPV or something to that effect). Then they could use some fuel and start early. Since E* only launched one or two channels, they decided not to use their insurance, and therefore the extra fuel, and just let it sit until their original dates planned?

Pure speculation on my part, of course...


----------



## Xmaniac

PWenger said:


> Might I suggest...do you think the request might have just been E* insurance? They never intended to move it early, but were afraid Charlie might pull an end around and start broadcasting a ton of new channels (I have no idea of their available bandwidth, but I can certainly envision him "stealing" bandwith by decreasing PPV or something to that effect). Then they could use some fuel and start early. Since E* only launched one or two channels, they decided not to use their insurance, and therefore the extra fuel, and just let it sit until their original dates planned?
> 
> Pure speculation on my part, of course...


In a wierd way you have calmed me down. I like most of the people here have been worried why they have not moved D10 but your post got me thinking. I realized that they werent even suppose to start moving till the 12. I just would have been cheese if they would have moved it early.


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> It's more stationary than ever. According to Orbitron, it will be in exactly the same longitude in 24 hours. Since D* requested the STA to begin the move on September 1, something must be holding it up. Too bad we're reduced to reading weak tea leaves.


Nope, not exactly. Inclination is edging ever closer to that hoped-for 0.00000 (which it will never quite make) and eccentricity is up again. The Move may be underway, albeit very slowly.

Speaking of how NORAD updates TLEs - one thing we have to remember as we await the move is that these elsets are snapshots in time - the instant the vehicle is painted by the tracking radar or picked up by the optical/IR scopes and observed for a short period, the elsets are generated. IF (and I say it's a big "if" but still . . .) the act of observation occurs DURING a long-duration, low-thrust maneuver, the elset isn't quite accurate for "real time" - in other words, "The Move" may be underway and we won't know it until NORAD gets around to publishing the next elset.

Or perhaps that's just more wishful thinking on my part.


----------



## purtman

Are there any truly "must-see" programs that are airing in the next 7-10 days that we won't be able to live without? I didn't think so.

I'd love to see the HD now, but I realize there's no reason to get angry as some are doing. I also look at my friend, John. A few years ago John came down with cancer, was laid off from his job, and had both parents die within a month of each other all within a four-month span. He didn't get angry. If he doesn't get all bent out of shape after going through that, who am I to get bent out of shape because my HD isn't here earlier than was promised?


----------



## JeffBowser

Good post. Last time I tried to introduce perspective to a thread, I about got railroaded out. I try to keep shut about that now - probably a TV talk forum is not the place to suggest TV is not all that important in the grand scheme of things :lol:



purtman said:


> Are there any truly "must-see" programs that are airing in the next 7-10 days that we won't be able to live without? I didn't think so.
> 
> I'd love to see the HD now, but I realize there's no reason to get angry as some are doing. I also look at my friend, John. A few years ago John came down with cancer, was laid off from his job, and had both parents die within a month of each other all within a four-month span. He didn't get angry. If he doesn't get all bent out of shape after going through that, who am I to get bent out of shape because my HD isn't here earlier than was promised?


----------



## James Long

PWenger said:


> They never intended to move it early, but were afraid Charlie might pull an end around and start broadcasting a ton of new channels (I have no idea of their available bandwidth, but I can certainly envision him "stealing" bandwith by decreasing PPV or something to that effect).


Actually E*'s next channel will be BTN HD next week and six new HD PPV channels soon after. I wouldn't expect E* to reduce PPV for anything. 

D* isn't playing games based on E*'s activities.

Now back to the speculation on it D10 is moving and when. 
DON'T FORGET TO KEEP IT TECH IN THIS THREAD!


----------



## oakwcj

I haven't detected any anger in this thread. We're just obsessively curious. It's hard for me to believe that the people who scribble in this thread even watch much TV.


----------



## smiddy

Out of curiosity, how much movement is a big deal in terms of satellites?


----------



## purtman

oakwcj said:


> I haven't detected any anger in this thread. We're just obsessively curious. It's hard for me to believe that the people who scribble in this thread even watch much TV.


It may not be as common as this one, but in general, all of the threads relating to D10, the HD launch, etc. have had some pretty spiteful comments -- one calling a person stupid, one saying somebody needed a b**ch slap, another saying D* lied because it didn't provide the History Channel first and should not have had D*'s press release (it was actually A&E's) on its site if E* was going to have it first, etc. It's become ridiculous.


----------



## dcben

oakwcj said:


> Wait no more:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07250.43441108 -.00000125 00000-0 10000-3 0 759
> 2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 *01.00271797* 649
> 
> Name	DIRECTV 10
> NORAD #	31862
> COSPAR designator	2007-032-A
> Epoch (UTC)	09-07-2007 10:25:33
> Orbit # at Epoch	64
> Inclination	0.081
> RA of A. Node	296.010
> Eccentricity	0.0000210
> Argument of Perigee	337.895
> *Revs per day	1.00271797*
> Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
> Semi-major axis	42 165 km
> Perigee x Apogee	35 786 x 35 787 km
> BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
> Mean anomaly	126.039
> Propagation model	SDP4
> Element number / age	75 / 0 day(s)
> StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
> Diameters	N/A
> Satellite group	Geostationary
> 
> Eccentricity is up a bit, but apogee isn't.


Just thinking

Isn't the element for rev/day critical here. Its been slowly declining over the last few TLE's (and that's good). Isn't perfect GS characterized by the element= 1.000000? If its greater the sat will pass the same point in the orbit before the day is over (hence move a little EAST relative to the earth). To move WEST to 102.775 we need to dip below 1 for a few days, no?

Ben


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> Just thinking
> 
> Isn't the element for rev/day critical here. Its been slowly declining over the last few TLE's (and that's good). Isn't perfect GS characterized by the element= 1.000000? If its greater the sat will pass the same point in the orbit before the day is over (hence move a little EAST relative to the earth). To move WEST to 102.775 we need to dip below 1 for a few days, no?
> 
> Ben


That's a good observation - period and eccentricity (in the case of a nominally-GSO satellite) are very closely related. What I believe Boeing is doing is increasing the eccentricity by tweaking the apogee or perigee very specifically (which changes both the period - revs/day - and eccentricity) so that they can make later burns with more precision. If you have a 3-D orbital tracking program, you can play with numbers yourself by editing an elset and see what changing one or more parameters does).

Okay, one more final thought - what is a "day"? This isn't a rhetorical question, right? It's not EXACTLY 24 hours. So as a point of comparison, here are the last five elsets for D10, Spaceway 1 and 2:



Code:


SPACEWAY 1
1 28644U 05015A   07248.27172321 -.00000119  00000-0  10000-3 0  4172
2 28644 000.0173 315.0735 0000064 044.4522 339.4027 01.00271935  8725
1 28644U 05015A   07245.34011889 -.00000109  00000-0  10000-3 0  4166
2 28644 000.0193 293.3504 0000100 058.8834 008.4233 01.00271378  8706
1 28644U 05015A   07241.41038069 -.00000106  00000-0  10000-3 0  4155
2 28644 000.0190 299.1785 0000139 053.0861 029.8221 01.00271894  8669
1 28644U 05015A   07239.55807591 -.00000106  00000-0  00000+0 0  4123
2 28644 000.0366 296.2505 0000127 108.5857 028.5896 01.00271232  8659
1 28644U 05015A   07239.15273863 -.00000105  00000-0  10000-3 0  4144
2 28644 000.0375 296.2559 0000127 108.5732 242.2723 01.00271329  8640
SPACEWAY 2
1 28903U 05046B   07249.44183793 -.00000145  00000-0  10000-3 0  3425
2 28903 000.0147 354.0003 0000253 073.9451 337.0489 01.00270986  6722
1 28903U 05046B   07248.39044384 -.00000142  00000-0  10000-3 0  3416
2 28903 000.0183 317.8165 0000072 127.9673 299.6724 01.00271044  6713
1 28903U 05046B   07247.39854911 -.00000139  00000-0  10000-3 0  3405
2 28903 000.0164 344.7984 0000207 087.4625 315.1387 01.00271110  6709
1 28903U 05046B   07246.45605063 -.00000136  00000-0  10000-3 0  3398
2 28903 000.0155 338.9888 0000201 093.6415 334.5425 01.00271176  6695
1 28903U 05046B   07245.49894938 -.00000133  00000-0  10000-3 0  3388
2 28903 000.0104 314.1707 0000186 123.5079 343.9968 01.00271263  6688
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07250.43441108 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   759
2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797   649
1 31862U 07032A   07248.34561698 -.00000121 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00748
2 31862 000.0860 295.5926 0000190 340.5235 089.8012 01.00271851000627
1 31862U 07032A   07249.11580049 -.00000123  00000-0  10000-3 0   747
2 31862 000.0843 295.5822 0000190 340.5452 007.8154 01.00271828   625
1 31862U 07032A   07247.36458622 -.00000117 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00735
2 31862 000.0891 294.9301 0000152 341.8390 095.0093 01.00271863000615
1 31862U 07032A   07248.08597704 -.00000120  00000-0  10000-3 0   734
2 31862 000.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 01.00271810   610


----------



## BrettStah

Guys... this isn't rocket science.






(Sorry if someone's already posted this cheesy attempt at humor )


----------



## PWenger

James Long said:


> Actually E*'s next channel will be BTN HD next week and six new HD PPV channels soon after. I wouldn't expect E* to reduce PPV for anything.
> 
> D* isn't playing games based on E*'s activities.
> 
> Now back to the speculation on it D10 is moving and when.
> DON'T FORGET TO KEEP IT TECH IN THIS THREAD!


I posted here, and I agree it is not tech, only because the request to move early is discussed so often here. I saw it as my explanation of why no motion was detected, and why fuel is not being "wasted". But I apologize, I realize it is probably is a little south of topic.

And I don't see it as D* playing games...more D* trying to get options to respond if E* started playing games. And believe me, I think BOTH companies are capable of gamesmanship.

Now I will quietly retire, because the only thing I understand on this thread is when someone says, "It's moving" or "It's not moving."  Carry on and thanks for the info.


----------



## dcben

LameLefty said:


> That's a good observation - period and eccentricity (in the case of a nominally-GSO satellite) are very closely related. What I believe Boeing is doing is increasing the eccentricity by tweaking the apogee or perigee very specifically (which changes both the period - revs/day - and eccentricity) so that they can make later burns with more precision. If you have a 3-D orbital tracking program, you can play with numbers yourself by editing an elset and see what changing one or more parameters does).
> 
> Okay, one more final thought - what is a "day"? This isn't a rhetorical question, right? It's not EXACTLY 24 hours. So as a point of comparison, here are the last five elsets for D10, Spaceway 1 and 2:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> SPACEWAY 1
> 1 28644U 05015A   07248.27172321 -.00000119  00000-0  10000-3 0  4172
> 2 28644 000.0173 315.0735 0000064 044.4522 339.4027 01.00271935  8725
> 1 28644U 05015A   07245.34011889 -.00000109  00000-0  10000-3 0  4166
> 2 28644 000.0193 293.3504 0000100 058.8834 008.4233 01.00271378  8706
> 1 28644U 05015A   07241.41038069 -.00000106  00000-0  10000-3 0  4155
> 2 28644 000.0190 299.1785 0000139 053.0861 029.8221 01.00271894  8669
> 1 28644U 05015A   07239.55807591 -.00000106  00000-0  00000+0 0  4123
> 2 28644 000.0366 296.2505 0000127 108.5857 028.5896 01.00271232  8659
> 1 28644U 05015A   07239.15273863 -.00000105  00000-0  10000-3 0  4144
> 2 28644 000.0375 296.2559 0000127 108.5732 242.2723 01.00271329  8640
> SPACEWAY 2
> 1 28903U 05046B   07249.44183793 -.00000145  00000-0  10000-3 0  3425
> 2 28903 000.0147 354.0003 0000253 073.9451 337.0489 01.00270986  6722
> 1 28903U 05046B   07248.39044384 -.00000142  00000-0  10000-3 0  3416
> 2 28903 000.0183 317.8165 0000072 127.9673 299.6724 01.00271044  6713
> 1 28903U 05046B   07247.39854911 -.00000139  00000-0  10000-3 0  3405
> 2 28903 000.0164 344.7984 0000207 087.4625 315.1387 01.00271110  6709
> 1 28903U 05046B   07246.45605063 -.00000136  00000-0  10000-3 0  3398
> 2 28903 000.0155 338.9888 0000201 093.6415 334.5425 01.00271176  6695
> 1 28903U 05046B   07245.49894938 -.00000133  00000-0  10000-3 0  3388
> 2 28903 000.0104 314.1707 0000186 123.5079 343.9968 01.00271263  6688
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A   07250.43441108 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   759
> 2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797   649
> 1 31862U 07032A   07248.34561698 -.00000121 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00748
> 2 31862 000.0860 295.5926 0000190 340.5235 089.8012 01.00271851000627
> 1 31862U 07032A   07249.11580049 -.00000123  00000-0  10000-3 0   747
> 2 31862 000.0843 295.5822 0000190 340.5452 007.8154 01.00271828   625
> 1 31862U 07032A   07247.36458622 -.00000117 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00735
> 2 31862 000.0891 294.9301 0000152 341.8390 095.0093 01.00271863000615
> 1 31862U 07032A   07248.08597704 -.00000120  00000-0  10000-3 0   734
> 2 31862 000.0876 295.0934 0000180 348.2291 348.8674 01.00271810   610


Interesting. Since all three sats have been just about stationary for the last few days looks like with the "meaning of day" factored in 1.00271... or about indicates little drift. My point was that watching this number, it will have to go a bit lower if the sat is to drift west. Can someone do the math and determine how low it would be to get .2 deg WEST from where we are in three days. My brain hurts.


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> Interesting. Since all three sats have been just about stationary for the last few days looks like with the "meaning of day" factored in 1.00271... or about indicates little drift. My point was that watching this number, it will have to go a bit lower if the sat is to drift west. Can someone do the math and determine how low it would be to get .2 deg WEST from where we are in three days. My brain hurts.


Let me put it this way . . . I USED to be able to do the math but it's been nearly 20 years and it makes my head hurt now too. :lol: I trust the folks at Boeing and their computers better than my own envelope scratchings at this point.


----------



## Ken984

I am clueless to the math, just rely on Lefty and Norad and Orbitron.


----------



## dcben

LameLefty said:


> Let me put it this way . . . I USED to be able to do the math but it's been nearly 20 years and it makes my head hurt now too. :lol: I trust the folks at Boeing and their computers better than my own envelope scratchings at this point.


How's this for ball park: In three days the sat goes 360 deg * 3 or 1080 deg. But we want it to go only 1079.8 deg. or .998148 rev/day or .001852 rev./day less than what whould keep it stationary.

If you subtract that from what seems to be the value that keeps the sats stationary (1.002710) you get 1.000858. That's what it would take to drift us .2 deg WEST in three days.

Now I need some ice cream.

:hurah:


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> How's this or ball park: In three days the sat goes 360 deg * 3 or 1080 deg. But we want it to go only 1079.8 deg. or .998148 rev/day or .001852 rev. less than what whould keep it stationary.
> 
> If you subtract that from what seems to be the value that keeps the sats stationary (1.002710) you get 1.000858. That's what it would take to frift us .2 deg WEST in three days.
> 
> Now I need some ice cream.
> 
> :hurah:


That looks about right at first glance. I'm too lazy to check your arithmetic, however. And bring me some ice cream too while you're at it.


----------



## gslater

dcben said:


> How's this for ball park: In three days the sat goes 360 deg * 3 or 1080 deg. But we want it to go only 1079.8 deg. or .998148 rev/day or .001852 rev./day less than what whould keep it stationary.
> 
> If you subtract that from what seems to be the value that keeps the sats stationary (1.002710) you get 1.000858. That's what it would take to drift us .2 deg WEST in three days.
> 
> Now I need some ice cream.
> 
> :hurah:


I may be doing something wrong here but I get .9998148 revolutions per day which comes to a difference of .0001852 rev/day for a final revolutions/day of 1.0025248. Somebody better check though because it's been a long time since I had to do "real" math.


----------



## dcben

gslater said:


> I may be doing something wrong here but I get .9998148 revolutions per day which comes to a difference of .0001852 rev/day for a final revolutions/day of 1.0025248. Somebody better check though because it's been a long time since I had to do "real" math.


Ooops, :blush: dropped a decimal place. OK that means the change will be even smaller, but it still may be the easiest parameter to monitor. Lets see what the next TLE says.

And thanks. :goodjob:

Ben


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> Ooops, :blush: dropped a decimal place.


No ice cream for you! But you can still bring some for me. 

* * *

Meanwhile, check out the post in the Return of Bschneider . . . thread. Someone has connected a signal meter to the outputs of his 5-LNB dish and picked up very low Ka-lo (B Band) signals. Of course we already KNEW that intellectually, but it's cool someone found out for himself.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1092792&postcount=219


----------



## purtman

LameLefty, if they are able to get those low-level signals, what does that say about the location of the sat? Would it have to be at 102.775 or could they do it at the 102.6? Thanks!


----------



## harsh

dhowse said:


> The propellent used by the main kick motor is probably the same fuel used by the small station keeping thrusters.


My recollection is that the lofting engine uses hydrazine. As noted, the station keeping system is Boeing's own XIPS.


----------



## LameLefty

purtman said:


> LameLefty, if they are able to get those low-level signals, what does that say about the location of the sat? Would it have to be at 102.775 or could they do it at the 102.6? Thanks!


The sat is NOT at 102.775 and in fact hasn't moved much at all for days. The TLEs tell us that much. D*'s FCC paperwork has said all along that testing will occur at 102.6 so I'm not too surprised by the finding, just impressed that someone actually bothered to find out something for himself - that spirit is pretty cool and if I had a sat signal meter I might try it myself.


----------



## John4924

LameLefty said:


> That looks about right at first glance. I'm too lazy to check your arithmetic, however. And bring me some ice cream too while you're at it.


I looked at it from a slightly different perspective. I think how they do this is raise the altitude, which makes the circumference larger, and thus takes longer to make a revolution [in essence slowing it down, and moving farther west at constant forward speed]

I calculated the distance it has to move is ~90 miles for the .2 deg offset. I then increased the altitude until I got a change in circumference of ~30 miles per day [to give 90 miles in 3 days]. The number I came up with is increasing altitude 5 miles [or ~ 8km] to get this result.

My question is can the TLEs pick up this small of an altitude change if this is how it is done?

Cheers,
John


----------



## Ken984

John4924 said:


> I looked at it from a slightly different perspective. I think how they do this is raise the altitude, which makes the circumference larger, and thus takes longer to make a revolution [in essence slowing it down, and moving farther west at constant forward speed]
> 
> I calculated the distance it has to move is ~90 miles for the .2 deg offset. I then increased the altitude until I got a change in circumference of ~30 miles per day [to give 90 miles in 3 days]. The number I came up with is increasing altitude 5 miles [or ~ 8km] to get this result.
> 
> My question is can the TLEs pick up this small of an altitude change if this is how it is done?
> 
> Cheers,
> John


Yes they can detect very very small differences in the orbit.


----------



## Ken984

ikeb said:


> just repeating what was stated at CEDIA by a directv spokesman - big rollout of HD channels involved the phrase "between next week and next year."


I take that statement to mean 1 of 2 things, he really doesn't know much but wanted to make a longer statement than "soon". OR and this is my take on what he said, "Starting next week and continuing thru next year."


----------



## n3ntj

Just a little curious..

I understand geostationary orbit and I am an EE, but what happens as the Earth tilts down and up with the seasons? In the norther summer, the northern part of the Earth tilts 'down' towards the sun. Don't our dishes then miss where they were pointed 3 months earlier?

Same thing in the northern winter.. our dishes will then miss the birds by aiming 'above' them. Obviously our dishes are fixed and moving with the Earth, thus, do the satellites in the Clark Belt (out 22k miles) also have to adjust and adjust down or up depending upon the Earth's seasons? Everyday the Earth tilts slightly up or down (depending upon season), so the satellites must also move slightly up or down?


----------



## LameLefty

n3ntj said:


> Just a little curious..
> 
> I understand geostationary orbit and I am an EE, but what happens as the Earth tilts down and up with the seasons? In the norther summer, the northern part of the Earth tilts 'down' towards the sun. Don't our dishes then miss where they were pointed 3 months earlier?
> 
> Same thing in the northern winter.. our dishes will then miss the birds by aiming 'above' them. Obviously our dishes are fixed and moving with the Earth, thus, do the satellites in the Clark Belt (out 22k miles) also have to adjust and adjust down or up depending upon the Earth's seasons? Everyday the Earth tilts slightly up or down (depending upon season), so the satellites must also move slightly up or down?


Nope, the earth's tilt doesn't change. The angle of the earth's equatorial tilt versus the plane of the earth's orbit around the sun is what causes seasons.

Here's a graphic from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:North_season.jpg

And actually, here's a decent writeup from the same source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasons


----------



## mlcdorgan

Here is the latest TLE from space-track. Thought I would grab them on my way into the forum, not that I understand them.


Time of post 3:08 pm CST

DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A 07249.36249949 -.00000123 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00756
2 31862 000.0837 295.5789 0000190 340.5522 096.8667 01.00271821000639


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> That's a good observation - period and eccentricity (in the case of a nominally-GSO satellite) are very closely related. What I believe Boeing is doing is increasing the eccentricity by tweaking the apogee or perigee very specifically (which changes both the period - revs/day - and eccentricity) so that they can make later burns with more precision. If you have a 3-D orbital tracking program, you can play with numbers yourself by editing an elset and see what changing one or more parameters does).
> 
> Okay, one more final thought - what is a "day"? This isn't a rhetorical question, right? It's not EXACTLY 24 hours. So as a point of comparison, here are the last five elsets for D10, Spaceway 1 and 2:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> SPACEWAY 1
> 1 28644U 05015A   07248.27172321 -.00000119  00000-0  10000-3 0  4172
> 2 28644 000.0173 315.0735 0000064 044.4522 339.4027 01.00271935  8725
> 1][/QUOTE]
> 
> [B]Disclaimer:  Those not interested in calculating D10 positions or doing the math skip this post! This post discusses how to calculate time and how long it take the earth to rotate one time ( hint- it is not exactly 24 hours) :nono2: [/B]
> 
> Let me begin this rather long post to say I am still a very interested beginner in satellites and their orbits and continue to thank those on this site.  However  I do have a number of years in astronomy.   Thus this astronomy background both helps me, but occasionally causes me problems here in understanding satellite definitions .  One of these is LameLefty's question  "What is a day"?
> 
> [B]That "What is a day?" question is important![/B]  When I was doing the Spaceway 1 calculations I posted above I referred to my problem with time.  The second number in the Spaceway 1 TLE,  line 1 " 07248.27172321" is the year (07) and day number (248) and fraction of a day (.27172321) to give you the precise time that TLE set was made.
> 
> My problem comes from the NASA definition of that term from this website:
> 
> [URL="http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html"]http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/
> SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html[/URL]
> 
> [QUOTE]Epoch Date and Julian Date Fraction
> 
> The Julian day fraction is just the number of days passed in the particular year. For example, the date above shows "86" as the epoch year (1986) and 50.28438588 as the Julian day fraction meaning a little over 50 days after January 1, 1986. The resulting time of the vector would be 1986/050:06:49:30.94. Note that NASA SkyWatch will expect the time tag to be the same format as shown above when entering a TLE data.
> 
> This was computed as follows:
> 
> Start with 50.28438588 days (Days = 50)
> 50.28438588 days - 50 = 0.28438588 days
> 0.28438588 days x 24 hours/day = 6.8253 hours (Hours = 6)
> 6.8253 hours - 6 = 0.8253 hours
> 0.8253 hours x 60 minutes/hour = 49.5157 minutes (Minutes = 49)
> 49.5157 - 49 = 0.5157 minutes
> 0.5157 minutes x 60 seconds/minute = 30.94 seconds (Seconds = 30.94)[/QUOTE]
> 
> I followed this NASA example which appears  has the day beginning at 00:00:00 UTC which I am assuming is the way NORAD intends it but is that right?
> 
> As I will explain the precise use of Julian Day in professional astronomy results in a time 12 hours later since Julian day numbers change at 12:00:00(Noon UTC) !:(
> The Julian  day number turns over at 12:00:00 (noon) which creates a 12 hour difference.
> 
> [B]DOES anyone know for sure that NORAD uses 00:00:00 UTC as the start of their day or does their TLE day change at 12:00:00 UTC?[/B]
> 
> This could take this thread WAY off topic, so I would like to keep discussion specific to how to use the JD time in the TLE set:
> 
> A good discussion of time standards and Julian Days is at:
> 
> [URL="http://www.maa.mhn.de/Scholar/times.html"]http://www.maa.mhn.de/
> Scholar/times.html[/URL]
> 
> Under Julian dates this is the definition and note the 12 hour difference in the example:
> 
> [QUOTE]The Julian day number -- or simply the Julian day -- is a continuous count of days, starting with the day 0 that began on the 1st of January, 4713 BC (in the proleptic Julian calendar, see below) at 12 o'clock noon. Consequently, a new Julian day always begins at 12 o'clock noon that originally gave european astronomers the advantage that all observations of any particular night happened at the same Julian day. This property is unimportant today.
> The Julian day count can easily be extended to a precise measure of time by appending the fraction of the day elapsed since 12 o'clock noon. For instance, JD 2 451 605 signifies the day that will begin on March 1, 2000, 12 o'clock noon whereas JD 2 451 605.25 means the point of time at 18 o'clock of the same day.[/QUOTE]
> 
> [B]Earth rotational time:[/B]
> 
> There is a difference in the time it takes the earth to rotate one time and our 24 hour clock which is based on how long the earth  takes to circle the sun creating an average "day".  The actual time for earth rotation and the orbital time of a GSO satellite  is 23h 56m 04s.
> 
> This topic is discussed on Celestrak  on the topic "Geostationary Orbits which I found informative as I am still trying to understand this stuff.  The link is at:
> 
> [URL]http://www.celestrak.com/columns/v04n07/[/URL]
> 
> [QUOTE]Before continuing, it is necessary to clarify what is meant by "the earth's rotational period." For most timekeeping, we consider the earth's rotation to be measured relative to the sun's (mean) position. However, since the sun moves relative to the stars (inertial space) as a result of the earth's orbit, one mean solar day is not the rotational period that we're interested in. A geosynchronous satellite completes one orbit around the earth in the same time that it takes the earth to make one rotation in inertial (or fixed) space. This time period is known as one sidereal day and is equivalent to 23h56m04s of mean solar time (for more information, see "Orbital Coordinate Systems, Part I" in the September/October 1995 issue of Satellite Times). Without any other influences, the earth will be oriented the same way in inertial space each time a satellite with this period returns to a particular point in its orbit.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Whew! If you read this far Thanks a Bunch!:hurah:


----------



## Bill Milford

The previous post says it must more eloquently than me... But I had already typed it...


The comment about what is a day is the key comment in this thread. There are two types of days. Solar days and sidereal days. The earth has to rotate slightly more the 360 degrees each day in order to have the sun be at the same point in the sky due to the fact that the earth itself is traveling along its orbit. We have approx. 365.2424 solar days in a year. A mean solar day is the time for the sun to appear at the same location in the sky. The other type of day is the one that is important in orbital calculations. It is slightly shorter that a solar day. It is the time require for the earth to rotate 360 degrees. The extra 3 minutes 55.81 seconds are required to allow for the how far the earth has progressed in in orbit around the sun. There is one more sidereal days in a solar year that there are solar days. The target of 1.0027379 revolutions per solar day just happens to be the ratio of sidreal days/year to solar days/year.

mean solar day
n.
The period of time between two successive transits of the mean sun; the standard for the 24-hour day measured from midnight to midnight

sidereal day
n.
The time required for a complete rotation of the earth in reference to any star or to the vernal equinox at the meridian, equal to 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.09 seconds in units of mean solar time.


----------



## lwilli201

:scratch:


----------



## oakwcj

mlcdorgan said:


> Here is the latest TLE from space-track. Thought I would grab them on my way into the forum, not that I understand them.
> 
> Time of post 3:08 pm CST
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07249.36249949 -.00000123 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00756
> 2 31862 000.0837 295.5789 0000190 340.5522 096.8667 01.00271821000639


Sorry, but that's NOT the latest. It's from day 249 of this year. The most recent is from day 250.


----------



## dcben

donshan said:


> *Disclaimer: Those not interested in calculating D10 positions or doing the math skip this post! This post discusses how to calculate time and how long it take the earth to rotate one time ( hint- it is not exactly 24 hours) :nono2: *
> 
> Let me begin this rather long post to say I am still a very interested beginner in satellites and their orbits and continue to thank those on this site. However I do have a number of years in astronomy. Thus this astronomy background both helps me, but occasionally causes me problems here in understanding satellite definitions . One of these is LameLefty's question "What is a day"? ....
> 
> stuff deleted....
> 
> Whew! If you read this far Thanks a Bunch!:hurah:


Donshan,

I understood every word!:scratch:

And it does clear up why approx. 1.002710 rev/day keeps a satellite over the same spot. And it confirms our conclusion that in the next day or so one indication that we are on our way would be a TLE with a 1.002500 element.

Anyone disagree????:ramblinon

Ben


----------



## donshan

Bill Milford said:


> The previous post says it must more eloquently than me... But I had already typed it...
> 
> The comment about what is a day is the key comment in this thread. There are two types of days. Solar days and sidereal days. The earth has to rotate slightly more the 360 degrees each day in order to have the sun be at the same point in the sky due to the fact that the earth itself is traveling along its orbit. We have approx. 365.2424 solar days in a year. A mean solar day is the time for the sun to appear at the same location in the sky. The other type of day is the one that is important in orbital calculations. It is slightly shorter that a solar day. It is the time require for the earth to rotate 360 degrees. The extra 3 minutes 55.81 seconds are required to allow for the how far the earth has progressed in in orbit around the sun. There is one more sidereal days in a solar year that there are solar days. The target of 1.0027379 revolutions per solar day just happens to be the ratio of sidreal days/year to solar days/year.
> 
> mean solar day
> n.
> The period of time between two successive transits of the mean sun; the standard for the 24-hour day measured from midnight to midnight
> 
> sidereal day
> n.
> The time required for a complete rotation of the earth in reference to any star or to the vernal equinox at the meridian, equal to 23 hours, 56 minutes, 4.09 seconds in units of mean solar time.


I would say your's is better, because it is a shorter summary. Besides two versions of this subject are always useful.


----------



## oakwcj

The latest elset has a period of 23h,56m,and FIVE seconds, so I guess that's a little progress.


----------



## dcben

oakwcj said:


> The latest elset has a period of 23h,56m,and FIVE seconds, so I guess that's a little progress.


23hr. 56 min 4 sec = 86164 sec.

24 hr = 86400 sec

86400/86164 = 1.002739

Again, suggests we need a TLE element of 1.0025000 or thereabouts to make a three day trip to -102.775 W

This has been fun. Even if I'm totally wrong.:beatdeadhorse:

Waiting for a new TLE.

Ben


----------



## LameLefty

Great explanation from the astronomy folks, thanks! 

I'm a hack amateur (10" Dob that I like to hunt Messiers with on cold, dry nights) but I forget all the details about the day/date stuff.

On the other hand, it illustrates why spacecraft engineers (as opposed to true orbital mechanics guys - and I do know a few who work at JSC and MSFC) are really more concerned with inclination and eccentricity (and a couple of those other pesky elements) for getting a handle on small movements of the satellites. :lol:


----------



## n3ntj

LameLefty said:


> Nope, the earth's tilt doesn't change. The angle of the earth's equatorial tilt versus the plane of the earth's orbit around the sun is what causes seasons.
> 
> Here's a graphic from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:North_season.jpg
> 
> And actually, here's a decent writeup from the same source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasons


Thanks LameLefty..that was a very interesting writeup about the seasons. So, essentually, the Earth is always tilted..depending upon where it is located in its orbit around the sun, however, the northern half is facing the sun more than the southern half at one point (which we in this hemisphere call summer) and at the opposite half of this Earth orbit, the southern half is more directly facing the sun.

In essence, since the Earth is always tilted, the satellites in GSO are also positioned with this same tilt.

I know we are way off topic, but this is pretty interesting. Thanks.


----------



## 21hawk

The earth does have a wobble also, but it's just a couple of degrees over several thousand years, IIRC.


----------



## cygnusloop

21hawk said:


> The earth does have a wobble also, but it's just a couple of degrees over several thousand years, IIRC.


The tilt of the Earth's axis has a _precession_, like a spinning top. It will precess through 360 degrees in 26,000 years (~1 degree every 72 years). This means the seasons will have shifted by 6 months in 13,000 years. With the lifespan of communications satellites being 15 or 20 years, at most, it is a non-issue.

P.S. Because of this precession, the zodiacal sign that you think you were born under is wrong. Since these signs were defined a bit over 2000 years ago, they have shifted to the west by about one sign. So, for example, if you thought you were a Gemini, you are _really _a Taurus, If you thought you were a Virgo, you are indeed a Leo. Also, in 13,000 years, Polaris won't be the North star anymore. But don't worry, it will be again in 26,000 years. 

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...


----------



## 21hawk

Yeah, what he said.


----------



## bbaleno

cygnusloop said:


> The tilt of the Earth's axis has a _precession_, like a spinning top. It will precess through 360 degrees in 26,000 years (~1 degree every 72 years). This means the seasons will have shifted by 6 months in 13,000 years. With the lifespan of communications satellites being 15 or 20 years, at most, it is a non-issue.
> 
> P.S. Because of this precession, the zodiacal sign that you think you were born under is wrong. Since these signs were defined a bit over 2000 years ago, they have shifted to the west by about one sign. So, for example, if you thought you were a Gemini, you are _really _a Taurus, If you thought you were a Virgo, you are indeed a Leo. Also, in 13,000 years, Polaris won't be the North star anymore. But don't worry, it will be again in 26,000 years.
> 
> Back to our regularly scheduled thread...


Sorry I can resist !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling


----------



## richlife

bbaleno said:


> Sorry I can resist !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling !rolling


Just stepped in to catch up on this thread -- not sure that was a good move....
  

Let's see now -- does this mean that the Earth's eccentricity is probably small? Or was that just my stagger? C'mon D*, give these guys something to sink their teeth into.


----------



## bakers12

Still looks parked to me.


Code:


DIRECTV 10 
1 31862U 07032A   07250.43441108 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   759
2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797   649


----------



## dcben

bakers12 said:


> Still looks parked to me.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A   07250.43441108 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   759
> 2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797   649


We've had that TLE since post 1862. Not news.:nono2:

Ben


----------



## mlcdorgan

*Post from yesterday not todays #'s*



Originally Posted by [B said:


> mlcdorgan[/b]
> _Here is the latest TLE from space-track. Thought I would grab them on my way into the forum, not that I understand them._
> 
> _Time of post 3:08 pm CST_
> 
> _DIRECTV 10 _
> _1 31862U 07032A 07249.36249949 -.00000123 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00756_
> _2 31862 000.0837 295.5789 0000190 340.5522 096.8667 01.00271821000639_





oakwcj said:


> Sorry, but that's NOT the latest. It's from day 249 of this year. The most recent is from day 250.


I am sorry, I was just trying to participate, and I went to space track and logged in and did a search for latest most recent TLE and that is what it gave me.

How do you get the latest one? just trying to learn a little here, very interesting stuff, and on the edge of your seat feeling!


----------



## syphix

Most recent (still from yesterday, 9/7/07):
DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07250.43441108 -.00000125 00000-0 10000-3 0 759
2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797 649

Still at 102.5585.


----------



## John4924

I go here....

http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

and click on "geostationary". Directv 10 is the last entry. And as a bonus, the epoch date is at the top of the page....


----------



## LameLefty

mlcdorgan said:


> How do you get the latest one? just trying to learn a little here, very interesting stuff, and on the edge of your seat feeling!


If you go to Space-Track.org and do a search by satellite common name or international number and plug in the info for Directv 10, you should get the latest - once in awhile they post the numbers out of order, which is why you ended up with an older elset - I suspect that's what happens when a set of measurements isn't exactly perfect and someone has to massage the data to correct the glitch or re-run the data through some other program to "fix" it. Often by then another elset has been generated in the interim, so that that other set is by then obsolete.


----------



## oakwcj

Because they sometimes list them out of order, it's helpful to request the last five elsets for some context. Then you can check the epoch date element to be sure. If you set up a favorites page with the D10, you'll also get a listing which may be out of order. But you can also check for the latest elset from that page. Thanks to Space-Track's little idiosyncracies, it's easy to be misled.


----------



## donshan

John4924 said:


> I go here....
> 
> http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/
> 
> and click on "geostationary". Directv 10 is the last entry. And as a bonus, the epoch date is at the top of the page....


 Good observation John about Celestrak use of "epoch date"! 

I also did some reading through the details on celestrak.com and "epoch date" is the correct terminology and the time fraction after "eppoch date begins at 00:00:00 UTC. This clears up the confusion of "epoch" day" vs "Julian day" in my post above.

Celestrak also specifically states that "epoch time format" the day number changes at midnight and not at noon as with Julian Day used for centuries in astronomical time calculations:

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/#FAQ02



> While talking about the epoch, this is perhaps a good place to answer the other time-related questions. First, how is the epoch time format interpreted? This question is best answered by using an example. An epoch of 98001.00000000 corresponds to 0000 UT on 1998 January 01-in other words, midnight between 1997 December 31 and 1998 January 01. An epoch of 98000.00000000 would actually correspond to the beginning of 1997 December 31-strange as that might seem. Note that the epoch day starts at UT midnight (not noon) and that all times are measured mean solar rather than sidereal time units (the answer to our third question).


Thus I believe it is NASA that has mislabeled their explanation of how to read TLE data on their web page by calling this a "Julian Day Fraction":

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html

Whoever prepared this explanation has everything correct and even their example of how to convert the decimal day fraction to h , m, s is correct. They should have used "epoch day fraction" instead of Julian Day fraction which changes day numbers at 12:00:00 UTC.

Quote from NASA page which is not correct terminology:



> Epoch Date and Julian Date Fraction
> 
> The Julian day fraction is just the number of days passed in the particular year. For example, the date above shows "86" as the epoch year (1986) and 50.28438588 as the Julian day fraction meaning a little over 50 days after January 1, 1986. The resulting time of the vector would be 1986/050:06:49:30.94. Note that NASA SkyWatch will expect the time tag to be the same format as shown above when entering a TLE data.


This is a surprising error for NASA which has plenty of of people who know better, but apparently not the person who prepared the web page graphic.:nono2:

Edit comment: This orbital stuff is hard enough for a beginner like me to try to learn without having NASA mislabel their explanation!

BTW astronomers use this Julian Day number system since almost all data is taken at night. Thus dating an observation takes place on a single "Julian day" number and does not divide the data into two different day numbers by changing day numbers at midnight, however it still leads to confusion in time zones far away from Greenwich where midnight UT may be in the daytime locally.


----------



## mlcdorgan

OK, get it now,
Thanks All


----------



## SParker

So its in its final location or its still heading there? I'm confused!


----------



## litzdog911

SParker said:


> So its in its final location or its still heading there? I'm confused!


Still at it's testing location. Not much movement yet towards its final location.


----------



## bakers12

bakers12 said:


> Still looks parked to me.
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A   07250.43441108 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   759
> 2 31862 000.0811 296.0095 0000210 337.8947 126.0388 01.00271797   649


Sorry about that old info. I gotta quit trying to make sense at 5 a.m.


----------



## Ken984

bakers12 said:


> Sorry about that old info. I gotta quit trying to make sense at 5 a.m.


Irs not NEW but it is still current as far as we know.


----------



## MrDad0330

They sure are taking their sweet time moving D10 from 102.6 to 102.775. They are just making us suffer or is there a problem...???


----------



## Ken984

Its just for their amusement , takes a while to make sure all of this is gonna work right, its close, and could be even closer by now, we haven't had a new tle since early yesterday. Either nothing has changed since then or Norad has taken the weekend off.


----------



## EaglePC

MrDad0330 said:


> They sure are taking their sweet time moving D10 from 102.6 to 102.775. They are just making us suffer or is there a problem...???


think its time to worry

this is now a longer project

even D* was way ahead of schedule


----------



## Ken984

No reason to worry yet, nothing has happened bad. The target is still ahead of us...we all wanted it earlier but D* NEVER said it would be active by now.


----------



## gslater

Just itching for a new TLE here. It's been over a day and a half now since the last one. At this rate D10 could be halfway to it's permanent location before we even know it's moving. Of course it could still be just sitting there mocking us as well!


----------



## PoitNarf

gslater said:


> Just itching for a new TLE here. It's been over a day and a half now since the last one. At this rate D10 could be halfway to it's permanent location before we even know it's moving. Of course it could still be just sitting there mocking us as well!


Or they could move it half way and then park it there for a few more days :lol:


----------



## john18

I though the idea was to move it as few times as possible to save fuel.


----------



## Guitar Hero

They haven't moved it at all. Maybe they don't need to.


----------



## mobandit

Guitar Hero said:


> They haven't moved it at all. Maybe they don't need to.


Well, it isn't in it's final position...so it will need to be moved at least once.

I used to be stationed at Naval Space Command (now defunct) and we didn't update TLE's unless there were changes or "expected" changes on anything except manned missions. NSC was the primary backup to US Space Command for tracking orbiting objects, USSC was who sent the information to NORAD.


----------



## msuspartan

Just a thought - but they may not be moving it yet because of other considerations than technical. They may need to coordinate going live with their PR schedule and perhaps contract dates with content providers that were tied to the original timeline. That may be critical for some providers who are working a tight schedule to go HD. They know we are watching and if they move it ahead of their total schedule we would be on their case if they did not light it up.


----------



## loudo

MrDad0330 said:


> They sure are taking their sweet time moving D10 from 102.6 to 102.775. They are just making us suffer or is there a problem...???


I am sure they want to do as much testing as possible before moving it to it's final position. I remember when they first fired up the MPG4 locals and local RSNs on the channel 90 area, everyone was complaining about pixelation and picture breakups, that with time got cleaned up. I am sure they will try to avoid those problems again.


----------



## oakwcj

Ken984 said:


> No reason to worry yet, nothing has happened bad. The target is still ahead of us...we all wanted it earlier but D* NEVER said it would be active by now.


True, but they did say that they were ahead of schedule and would be ready to drift on or about September 1:

"In its application for the July 23 STA, DIRECTV indicated that it would commence
drifting on or about September 12, 2007, and that the relocation would be complete on or about
September 15, 2007. However, DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to
commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775° W.L. on or about September 1. "

That didn't happen. Unless it began drifting after the last TeaLEaf [aka "TLE"], it will at best beat the original schedule by no more than a few days. I'm not going to try to guess the cause for this apparent delay, but it's undeniable that the move did not begin on or about September 1.


----------



## mika911

oakwcj said:


> True, but they did say that they were ahead of schedule and would be ready to drift on or about September 1:
> 
> "In its application for the July 23 STA, DIRECTV indicated that it would commence
> drifting on or about September 12, 2007, and that the relocation would be complete on or about
> September 15, 2007. However, DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to
> commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775° W.L. on or about September 1. "
> 
> That didn't happen. Unless it began drifting after the last TeaLEaf [aka "TLE"], it will at best beat the original schedule by no more than a few days. I'm not going to try to guess the cause for this apparent delay, but it's undeniable that the move did not begin on or about September 1.


Yep. Good information to remind ourselves about. Just think, if it wasn't for the ahead of schedule permission stuff we'd still consider ourselves on target and getting set for the move.

Lets hope it does start moving the 12th, or even a day or two early.

At this point though, time is moving on, so hopefully we won't have to wait that much longer. Hope that sounded right. I just mean at this point if they can be on the original time schedule, we don't have long to wait, since the month is already along.


----------



## tpm1999

oakwcj said:


> True, but they did say that they were ahead of schedule and would be ready to drift on or about September 1:
> 
> "In its application for the July 23 STA, DIRECTV indicated that it would commence
> drifting on or about September 12, 2007, and that the relocation would be complete on or about
> September 15, 2007. However, DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to
> commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775° W.L. on or about September 1. "
> 
> That didn't happen. Unless it began drifting after the last TeaLEaf [aka "TLE"], it will at best beat the original schedule by no more than a few days. I'm not going to try to guess the cause for this apparent delay, but it's undeniable that the move did not begin on or about September 1.


Makes one wonder what Directv really wanted with the FCC "waiver". Getting the new orbital spot? or getting the sattelite up and running quicker than stated? Its now farely obvious that the channels wont go live early, but they have a high probability of getting the 102.775 spot for good.

hmmm... directv setup the letter as a "good news/bad news" type....


----------



## donshan

tpm1999 said:


> Makes one wonder what Directv really wanted with the FCC "waiver". Getting the new orbital spot? or getting the sattelite up and running quicker than stated? Its now farely obvious that the channels wont go live early, but they have a high probability of getting the 102.775 spot for good.
> 
> hmmm... directv setup the letter as a "good news/bad news" type....


This is just to put my thoughts into the obvious delay in why D10 has not moved, and maybe the happy answer is that it is moving and we don't have the new TLE yet. OR they are taking a few days to get some more late comer Channel HD feeds into the package and we will get more than expected by "mid Setpember".

However, the possibility exists of some issue that has delayed their plan.

I worked a quite a few years as the project manager on energy related projects , so I can sympathize with the "pressure" on the technical Project Manager in D* to get this HD running "on time vs. the schedule"!

The letters to the FCC and announcements by *D* management* are based on that carefully prepared Master Plan and Schedule. This is what they wanted to do and when it should happen. When it comes to the real word of implementing that plan, the unexpected almost always happens. It is not the things you planned for, it is the things you did not know about at the beginning (nor plan costs for) , that did not get put into the plan that are usually the problem. It is that *"unexpected"* that typically cause projects to be late and go over budget, especially if they are very tight schedules.

I still think Boeing is in charge of D10 operations with close assistance from the D* technical people. It could be that Boeing is not yet ready to sign off transfer to D* for operation for some reason. I am sure Boeing needs to complete all their tests on D10 to be sure they have fufilled every clause in their contract so they get final payment. Based on projects I did I would expect there would be a high level meeting between Boeing and D* to review each and every test result and its paper work. There is BIG money involved here. As a hypothetical example, if one of D*'s uplinks has a problem delivering a signal Boeing needs for a test, maybe Boeing can't complete one of their D10 tasks yet. Both items have to get done before D10 can move.

In my experience there is always one sub task item that encounters unexpected problems ( test equipment failure for example) that becomes the "critical path" schedule task because even if the other 499 out of 500 items are finished, the project cannot proceed to the next step until that last one is finished. I always found ways to "hide" extra time in Master Plan schedules by allow a little extra time for "easy" tasks we had done many times, and I knew would be finished early. I doubt that happened here- their schedule for D10 was very tight vs. previous satellite startups- little room for a problem.

I have no idea where any delay in D10 could be, but I bet there are people working on it 24/7 with lots of coffee, if there is any such a delay at all. This does bring back memories of one project I had that had a custom software task. There was a "bug" in the software and it did not work. Each day the comptuter engineer would tell me "I need one more day!". Only the next day I got the same answer! They finally found the problem in the code, fixed it, and we went on to finish on time. But only because other tasks did not depend on this software. That task was not on the "critical path". I mention software because software or firmware isssues in devices keep cropping up in digital TV problems.

Anyone who has done complex projects knows that in the real world of cutting edge technology S*** Happens! Sometimes there are bloody fingers when working at the cutting edge!

Patience! And it is football time and I have to GO!


----------



## F1 Fan

I agree with donshan. I too have had many experiences with large projects and complex schedules.

It is always the task that you think will take 10 minutes that takes the longest time.

I believe D* was ahead of schedule and fully intended to move on or about the 1st. We only see the official fcc paperwork but we know there are hundreds of behind the scenes calls to get fcc approval. 

The on or about Sept 1st mentioned in the STA implies they are ahead but have a few more tests to complete and will be ready then. They wanted to get the ok before they completed the tests so they werent waiting. 

Something has gone wrong with one of those tests. It could be anything. It could be serious or it could be minor - only those involved know. To ask for it to move on the 1st and still appears not to have moved on the 9th means something went wrong.

We have never been given an exact date other than September. Yes I Eric mentioned 16th in the Emmy press release but he did say on or around (how big is around?).

I suspect they are throwing everything at fixing whatever may be wrong. They wont say anything publicly because they are still on the original schedule. They are wise not to give a date until they are sure. When the bird is moved and ready to go and every i has been dotted and t crossed then they will give a date.

I also suspect they have informed their content providers. E* getting the jump on Hist HD and BTN HD after the initial press releases saying D* was going to be first suggests that D* have missed a pre-agreed milestone and so their agreement with those channels to be first is no longer valid. Sucks I know but business is business, contracts are contracts and BTN isnt going to wait for D* just because they are nice guys.

While everyone has been getting impatient and throwing their toys out of their crib D* has never said a date other than Sept. They want it out there as much as we do (in fact more so as they can entice more new customers). So if it is late or there is a problem I think they are more concerned about it than anyone else and if it will affect scheduling then they will let us know. Can hardly blame them for something going wrong in space. Blame Boeing more than D* if the bird has a problem.

I see a lot of D* bashing for something that still isnt in their control.


----------



## James Long

F1 Fan said:


> I see a lot of D* bashing for something that still isnt in their control.


Yet in their FCC filing they state: "_However, DIRECTV is ahead of this schedule and will be ready to commence moving DIRECTV 10 to 102.775° W.L. on or about September 1._"

Apparently something changed ... they are now only a couple of days away from the original planned move date - possibly making the STA to move early moot.

It will get there ... when is the question, but it will get there.


----------



## JoeNY72

Been reading this thread and appreciate all the work everyone
has put in keeping us up to date on the movement of the
D10 satellite. Just to throw this in, not that it means much coming
from a CSR, but I got the call yesterday morning (9/8/2007) about
the BBC being hooked up to my receiver. I asked the CSR when they
are expecting the new HD channels to start up and she told me
between now and Oct. 1.

So that does fall into the range covering Sept. 16, which has been a date
thrown around as the official launch. So it has to be soon !

Joe


----------



## Ken984

I still think the STA was filed to allow them the chance to get it done early and also to allow them to commence broadcasting from 102.775, which they could not have done at all without it. The change from 102.8 to 102.775 at this date is still a ? but for whatever reason they did not want to start at 102.8 and then have to move it again to 102.775 after the permanent change was approved.

And who knows what is really going on right now, no new tle for ANY sats since Friday morning, is VERY odd, something on at least one of the geo sats they track has to have changed between then and now but still no updates.

When we get the new tles it could show they started moving it Friday...or not...surely we will get something new to talk about by tomorrow.


----------



## machavez00

still sitting at -102.56


----------



## Ken984

Finally an update on Spacetrack but no new tle for D10....


----------



## gslater

machavez00 said:


> still sitting at -102.56


Actually as Ken984 posted, there have been no new TLE's for more than two days now so no one really knows where it is right now. All we know for sure at this point is that it was at -102.56 more than two days ago. It may already be moving but without the data being updated it's impossible to tell. In the time I've been watching this thread I've never seen it go more than a day without an update so this is strange. Let's just hope the updates are forthcoming once the weekend is over. Then we'll really know if it's still parked at the test location or not.


----------



## Interceptor

machavez00 said:


> still sitting at -102.56


Only if you've gotten a new tle and it shows the same thing. No new tle since Friday... Argh.. My bet is that tomorrow's tle will show that it's already on its way.


----------



## Ken984

New tle, not much changing...eccentricity is higher again though. Appogee vs perigee is 3km now so it should move farther than it has been.



Code:


1 31862U 07032A   07251.46296024 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   769
2 31862 000.0793 296.3785 0000289 341.6382 133.2174 01.00271754   656


----------



## Ken984

1DIRECTV10
Lon	102.5632° W
Lat	0.0264° S
Alt (km)	35 785.030
Azm	196.1°
Elv	51.0°
RA	16h 42m 22s
Decl	-5° 17' 42"
Range (km)	37 007.852
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.075
Direction	Ascending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	333.8° (236)
TA	333.8°
Orbit #	66
Mag (illum)	? (45%)
Constellation	Oph


----------



## Ken984

Name	DIRECTV10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	2007-09-08 11:06:39
Orbit # at Epoch	65
Inclination	0.079
RA of A. Node	296.378
Eccentricity	0.0000289
Argument of Perigee	341.638
Revs per day	1.00271754
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 788 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	133.217
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	76 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	N/A


----------



## Interceptor

Yes, doesn't look like a lot has changed. However, running those numbers through the simulation on Orbitron does show a more generally westward movement, albeit very slowly. Looks like a few more tweaks should get it underway a little quicker.


----------



## Ken984

That TLE was from yesterday so maybe there is an even newer one headed our way. Yesterday in UTC, sorry watching football and trying to keep my head on straight.


----------



## oakwcj

I don't see much of a westward movement. Orbitron says it will be at 102.5674 tomorrow afternoon before heading East again to 102.5625 early on the 11th and then West again. By the next day it will make it all the way to 102.57! OTOH, there is a bit more eccentricity and maybe the NEXT TLE will show more of a change.


----------



## John4924

From my earlier calculation, I estimated that the altitude difference [of perigee & apogee] has to be ~8 km for the bird to make the ~90 mi westward track to 102.775 in 3 days. From Ken's work above, the tle from yesterday shows a difference of 3 km, so we are headed in the right direction. 

Hopefully tomorrows tle will show close to the 8 km needed. I have to be optimistic because it looks like we are headed in the right direction, finally.


----------



## gslater

Ken984 said:


> New tle, not much changing...eccentricity is higher again though. Appogee vs perigee is 3km now so it should move farther than it has been.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A   07251.46296024 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   769
> 2 31862 000.0793 296.3785 0000289 341.6382 133.2174 01.00271754   656


Don't know if I've got my days correct or not but wasn't the last one (07250) from September 7? If I counted right that means that this one (07251) is from September 8 so this is still over a day old. At least it's something though.

Edit: Sorry you guys beat me to the punch on this.


----------



## Ken984

Yep its older than i would like but its the newest I have access to.


----------



## litzdog911

Once the commands are issued to move D10 to its final location, how long should it take? We're just talking a few hundred miles, right?


----------



## Tom Robertson

litzdog911 said:


> Once the commands are issued to move D10 to its final location, how long should it take? We're just talking a few hundred miles, right?


We are expecting about 3 days to move the approximately 90 miles.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## PoitNarf

John4924 said:


> From my earlier calculation, I estimated that the altitude difference [of perigee & apogee] has to be ~8 km for the bird to make the ~90 mi westward track to 102.775 in 3 days. From Ken's work above, the tle from yesterday shows a difference of 3 km, so we are headed in the right direction.
> 
> Hopefully tomorrows tle will show close to the 8 km needed. I have to be optimistic because it looks like we are headed in the right direction, finally.


Interesting. What was the altitude difference in the last TLE? If the move is indeed underway now then new HD by this coming weekend is certainly a possibility!


----------



## Ken984

The difference in the last tle was 1km.


----------



## n2deep2bn

Herdfan said:


> One thing to remember, no matter how secretive D* like to be regarding these things, the SEC doesn't really care how secretive they want to be.
> 
> If there is a material issue affecting the satellite and its ability to broadcast new channels, D* has to report it to the investors.


Thats right. I think they are going to report to them tomorrow morning.


----------



## donshan

Celestrack now shows Sept 10 is day 253 since it is past midnight UT.

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

As I am typing this UT is just past 02:10 AM From my UT clock. - which calculates to is 2.167/24 = 0.09 days +253 =253.09

Thus an approximate current TLE date time is 07253.09

Since the Last TLE date was 07251.46296024 it is about 1.63 days ago or about 39 hours old.

( and I hope this quick calculation is right!)


----------



## keithw1975

Can someone tell me why it says that the satellite is always moving at around 5-6 miles an hour? I don't see it's position changing over the past week so how can it be moving? Is that accurate?

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862

Keith


----------



## EaglePC

keithw1975 said:


> Can someone tell me why it says that the satellite is always moving at around 5-6 miles an hour? I don't see it's position changing over the past week so how can it be moving? Is that accurate?
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862
> 
> Keith


its allways been moving 5 or 6 miles per hour ever since 2 weeks ago;and still stays @ 102.56 so hmmmm?


----------



## donshan

keithw1975 said:


> Can someone tell me why it says that the satellite is always moving at around 5-6 miles an hour? I don't see it's position changing over the past week so how can it be moving? Is that accurate?
> 
> http://www.n2yo.com/?s=31862
> 
> Keith


 No, the calculations on n2yo of speed are not accurate and meaningless near zero. I believe that their speed calculation is used for satellites that are moving hundreds even thousands of mph and so they can draw tracking lines on their charts, but the math does not work right at slow speeds for GSO. Just like your speedometer in your car won't give an accurate 1 mph reading. There were times for D10 earlier where as it reached apogee that the speed number would fluctuate wildly from 0 to 15 or 0 to 9 up and down randomly.

The D10 orbit is not exactly over the equator so there is a little motion N and S and the calculations are trying, but give no useful info.


----------



## EaglePC

post1,971 out of 232,972 views
anyways so now n2yo is not the place ,i figured it was not right.
is there another place to follow D10 or is it in secret orbit or is it true
We are expecting about 3 days to move the approximately 90 miles.


----------



## dcben

Ken984 said:


> New tle, not much changing...eccentricity is higher again though. Appogee vs perigee is 3km now so it should move farther than it has been.
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1 31862U 07032A   07251.46296024 -.00000125  00000-0  10000-3 0   769
> 2 31862 000.0793 296.3785 0000289 341.6382 133.2174 [B]01.00271754[/B]   656


Confirms my sugestion that the rev/da is the most revealing parameter to watch.

The new rev/da is 01.00271754 
The old one was 01.00271797

That's an improvement of .00000043 or .215% of what we need.:nono2:

We need it to reduce by another .00020000 or so if we are to make the trip in three days. As the position calculations show, at this rate it would take a very long time to get to 102.775 deg.

Ben


----------



## gslater

dcben said:


> Confirms my sugestion that the rev/da is the most revealing parameter to watch.
> 
> The new rev/da is 01.00271754
> The old one was 01.00271797
> 
> That's an improvement of .00000043 or .215% of what we need.:nono2:
> 
> We need it to reduce by another .00020000 or so if we are to make the trip in three days. As the position calculations show, at this rate it would take a very long time to get to 102.775 deg.
> 
> Ben


Looks like this could indicate the start of a move but that has been said before only to have the next TLE show it still parked at the testing location. Again we're waiting for a new TLE to see if this is a continuing trend or not. If we could get one that is not two days old, it certainly would help.


----------



## JLF

Unless there is a problem with moving the sat, Directv does not have a choice but to start moving it real soon.

The STA to use the testing location was only for about 30 days from the date that it was parked at the location. So I am not sure if when they start moving the sat will be any indication of when the channels will go live.



> This STA will cover a period of
> approximately 30 days, which DIRECTV requests be keyed to become effective upon the
> satellite's arrival at 102.6° W.L


----------



## donshan

gslater said:


> Looks like this could indicate the start of a move but that has been said before only to have the next TLE show it still parked at the testing location. Again we're waiting for a new TLE to see if this is a continuing trend or not. If we could get one that is not two days old, it certainly would help.


The current date/time is about 07253.58xxxxx. A new TLE with date time of at least 07253.4xxx is needed, which could help answer this question if drift has started or not. Just have to wait. If the D10 orbit is changing something should be out today.


----------



## gslater

JLF said:


> Unless there is a problem with moving the sat, Directv does not have a choice but to start moving it real soon.
> 
> The STA to use the testing location was only for 30 days from the date that it was parked at the location. So I am not sure if when they start moving the sat will be any indication of when the channels will go live.


Per the following grant of authority, they must stop operating at -102.6 today.

*"DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for thirty days commencing August 10,
2007, to operate the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location after launch to conduct in-orbit testing (IOT)"*


----------



## JLF

gslater said:


> Per the following grant of authority, they must stop operating at -102.6 today.
> 
> *"DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for thirty days commencing August 10,
> 2007, to operate the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location after launch to conduct in-orbit testing (IOT)"*


You are right, I was thinking they had another week or so.


----------



## Ken984

Man a new tle would be great about now...is anyone still searching the FCC site to see if any new filings have been made?


----------



## dedalus_00

gslater said:


> Per the following grant of authority, they must stop operating at -102.6 today.
> 
> *"DIRECTV IS AUTHORIZED, for thirty days commencing August 10,
> 2007, to operate the DIRECTV 10 satellite at the 102.6º W.L. orbital location after launch to conduct in-orbit testing (IOT)"*


Nice work pointing that out. Actually 30 days starting on Aug 10th should mean that yesterday was the last day they could operate from 102.6. I wonder if any of the folks who had confirmed readings last week using signal meters could check to see if those signals have ceased.


----------



## PWenger

Tom Robertson said:


> We are expecting about 3 days to move the approximately 90 miles.


Sorry, I am not a tech guy, so I may be missing something obvious, but is this "3 days" based on common practice, the way D10 was built, or because Scotty canna change the laws of physics? In other words, if we see this start to move, is it predictable that once it starts moving "in earnest", we can assume it will be in position in 3 days, then a couple a days to iron out kinks, and we might see some goodness? Or could it take more or less time to get in position?

Sorry to dumb you guys down, but my BA is in English Lit...this stuff makes my head throb.


----------



## dogs31

dedalus_00 said:


> Nice work pointing that out. Actually 30 days starting on Aug 10th should mean that yesterday was the last day they could operate from 102.6. I wonder if any of the folks who had confirmed readings last week using signal meters could check to see if those signals have ceased.


It could be moving as we speak.


----------



## oakwcj

It's because that is what D* has said in its submissions to the FCC. Obviously, they could move it faster, but that would mess with the circularity of the orbit and require more corrections and more sacrifices of those poor Xenon ions. It just needs to move about .1 degree per day for two days. There are indications that it has started to move, but it needs a bit more of a goose. The news vaccuum has generated a lot of baseless rumors, though.


----------



## John4924

Ken984 said:


> Man a new tle would be great about now...is anyone still searching the FCC site to see if any new filings have been made?


Ken [et al], this was posted on the FCC website last Wednesday [09-05] go here and look at the first few pages of SES00961.

I "think" this has something to do with the uplink locations in California? Anyway, Directv10 is listed there as one of the "Points of Communications". Don't know if this is anything important, just wanted to throw this out there.

Cheers [and relax]
John


----------



## PWenger

oakwcj said:


> It's because that is what D* has said in its submissions to the FCC. Obviously, they could move it faster, but that would mess with the circularity of the orbit and require more corrections and more sacrifices of those poor Xenon ions. It just needs to move about .1 degree per day for two days. There are indications that it has started to move, but it needs a bit more of a goose. The news vaccuum has generated a lot of baseless rumors, though.


Bless you, I understood that...thanks. I really appreciate this thread and those who post...I don't always understand it, but it's nice to see facts and measurables.


----------



## Tom Robertson

John4924 said:


> Ken [et al], this was posted on the FCC website last Wednesday [09-05] go here and look at the first few pages of SES00961.
> 
> I "think" this has something to do with the uplink locations in California? Anyway, Directv10 is listed there as one of the "Points of Communications". Don't know if this is anything important, just wanted to throw this out there.
> 
> Cheers [and relax]
> John


John,

You are correct, this grants DIRECTV to operate a couple of uplink transmitters to send signals to multiple satellite locations present as well as D11 in the future. While an important document showing that DIRECTV is continuing to be ready on the broadcast side of things, it doesn't really tell much about D10's readiness.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## moonman

dedalus_00 said:


> Nice work pointing that out. Actually 30 days starting on Aug 10th should mean that yesterday was the last day they could operate from 102.6. I wonder if any of the folks who had confirmed readings last week using signal meters could check to see if those signals have ceased.


------------------
It's 60 days from Sept 1st per FCC...
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=589244


----------



## JLF

moonman said:


> ------------------
> It's 60 days from Sept 1st per FCC...
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/servlet/ib.page.FetchPN?report_key=589244


60 days at it's new location not the testing location which is 30 days


----------



## Tom Robertson

JLF said:


> 60 days at it's new location not the testing location which is 30 days


To be precise its 60 days to move to its home location. And they are granted authority to operate during those 60 days, btw. So DIRECTV could legally broadcast from anywhere on the path. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gslater

JLF said:


> 60 days at it's new location not the testing location which is 30 days


This may have more to do with the new STA than any other reason I've seen posted on this forum. Under the STA for testing they had through September 9 to complete testing. I assume then that after the 9th, they were not authorized to conduct a move. By getting the second STA, they got a change in final location to -102.775 AND they got authority to move early if testing went well or to move after the 9th if testing ran right up to the last day.

Does this make sense to anyone else or am in misinterpreting the STA's?


----------



## JLF

gslater said:


> This may have more to do with the new STA than any other reason I've seen posted on this forum. Under the STA for testing they had through September 9 to complete testing. I assume then that after the 9th, they were not authorized to conduct a move. By getting the second STA, they got a change in final location to -102.775 AND they got authority to move early if testing went well or to move after the 9th if testing ran right up to the last day.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else or am in misinterpreting the STA's?


I may be wrong but with my understanding of the FCC is that they were allowed to operate on the frequencies for testing purposes at -102.6 for 30 days commencing on AUG 10. They are allowed to operate for 60 days on the frequencies at -102.775 commencing Sept. 1


----------



## dogs31

Tom Robertson said:


> To be precise its 60 days to move to its home location. And they are granted authority to operate during those 60 days, btw. So DIRECTV could legally broadcast from anywhere on the path.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


So they could start broadcasting at 102.6? Or does it have to be further from that along the path?


----------



## JLF

dogs31 said:


> So they could start broadcasting at 102.6? Or does it have to be further from that along the path?


No They are not allowed commercial broadcasts from 102.6 according to the sta allowing operation from this location.

They can still test the sat while moving though according to the sta.


----------



## moonman

gslater said:


> This may have more to do with the new STA than any other reason I've seen posted on this forum. They got a change in final location to -102.775 AND they got authority to move early if testing went well or to move after the 9th if testing ran right up to the last day.
> 
> Does this make sense to anyone else or am in misinterpreting the STA's?


------------
Yes...they had to do it this way, because they realized that there was not enough time left to hold a public hearing on the request to re-locate to 102.775.


----------



## Tom Robertson

JLF said:


> dogs31 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So they could start broadcasting at 102.6? Or does it have to be further from that along the path?
> 
> 
> 
> No They are not allowed commercial broadcasts from 102.6 according to the sta allowing operation from this location.
> 
> They can still test the sat while moving though according to the sta.
Click to expand...

Actually, yes they can operate anywhere along the path given the last two lines of the grant:


> This grant includes the
> authority to operate the space stations feeder links in the 18.3-18.8 GHz band and the service links in the bands 28.35-28.60 GHz and 29.25-29.50 GHz frequencies during this time. This STA is granted in accordance with the terms, conditions, and technical specifications set forth in DIRECTV's application, the attachment to grant, and the Commission's rules.


From a legal standpoint, DIRECTV could have gone live as of Sept. 1.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## gslater

moonman said:


> ------------
> Yes...they had to do it this way, because they realized that there was not enough time left to hold a public hearing on the request to re-locate to 102.775.


I was referring more to the date than the location. A lot of people thought the date of September 1 indicated that they would be ready early. I'm suggesting that they simply widenned the timeframe that they had so that they could go early but so that they could also go later.

Just hoping we get a new TLE soon and that it is current so we can end the speculation about what's been happening for the past couple of days.


----------



## JLF

Tom Robertson said:


> Actually, yes they can operate anywhere along the path given the last two lines of the grant:
> 
> From a legal standpoint, DIRECTV could have gone live as of Sept. 1.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


LOL Not sure about that as the SPIRIT of the sta is to get permission move the stat to 102.775 and to operate the sat from the location.

The sta is valid for 60 days commencing AUG 30.


----------



## PWenger

Could one of you Tech savvy guys look at this statement from Scott G. among the "Others" and give us a true evaluation.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv...ctv-statement-regarding-nfl-hd-2007-a-11.html

Quote from Scott G: I am not technical enough to read TLE's and know what they mean. But I am told that that if your good are reading TLE's you can see there is an issue with the satellite, which could cause problems from DirecTV 10 from being received in parts of the country. Unquote.

All respect to Scott, I couldn't make a TLE evaluation, and I would prefer one of you guys who obviously can weigh the accuracy of this.

At least, before I start balling like a little girl who got told her pony died on the way to her birthday party...


----------



## dcben

PWenger said:


> Could one of you Tech savvy guys look at this statement from Scott G. among the "Others" and give us a true evaluation.
> 
> http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv...ctv-statement-regarding-nfl-hd-2007-a-11.html
> 
> Quote from Scott G: I am not technical enough to read TLE's and know what they mean. But I am told that that if your good are reading TLE's you can see there is an issue with the satellite, which could cause problems from DirecTV 10 from being received in parts of the country. Unquote.
> 
> All respect to Scott, I couldn't make a TLE evaluation, and I would prefer one of you guys who obviously can weigh the accuracy of this.
> 
> At least, before I start balling like a little girl who got told her pony died on the way to her birthday party...


There is absolutely nothing in the TLE's relevant to the Sateliite's status or performance except an indication that as of Saturday D10 was still in its testing location.

Ben


----------



## gslater

dcben said:


> There is absolutely nothing in the TLE's relevant to the Sateliite's status or performance except an indication that as of Saturday D10 was still in its testing location.
> 
> Ben


I'm certainly not an expert either but the only thing that could possibly show up in a TLE that would affect the ability of the satellite to deliver content would be location. We know it has not been moved to it's final location as of the last TLE and we know that for whatever reason the orbit is inclined slightly. I don't know if the inclination is enough to affect the aiming of spot beams or not but certainly it should be correctable with the thrusters I would think.


----------



## syphix

gslater said:


> I'm certainly not an expert either but the only thing that could possibly show up in a TLE that would affect the ability of the satellite to deliver content would be location. We know it has not been moved to it's final location as of the last TLE and we know that for whatever reason the orbit is inclined slightly. I don't know if the inclination is enough to affect the aiming of spot beams or not but certainly it should be correctable with the thrusters I would think.


D10 has no spot beams to aim...it's all CONUS.


----------



## lwilli201

syphix said:


> D10 has no spot beams to aim...it's all CONUS.


That is not quite true. D10 has both National beams and spot beams to add more LIL HD.


----------



## JLF

syphix said:


> D10 has no spot beams to aim...it's all CONUS.


nope 1 - 14 is conus, 15- ? is spot beams according to the records at the fcc.


----------



## RAD

syphix said:


> D10 has no spot beams to aim...it's all CONUS.


Where did you get that from? In PDF at http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf it says D10 and D11 both have 55 active and 15 spare spot beams in addition to the CONUS beams.


----------



## gslater

RAD said:


> Where did you get that from? In PDF at http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/dtv10-11-12_factsheet.pdf it says D10 and D11 both have 55 active and 15 spare spot beams in addition to the CONUS beams.


It's really beside the point. The fact is that if the inclination is enough to affect the aiming of spot beams then I would think it could be corrected with the thrusters. I'm not an expert but it certainly seems like it would be easier to adjust the inclination than it would be to adjust the position since you're not fighting gravity to adjust the inclination.


----------



## PWenger

As the one who probably started this mess...

I just hoped a tech guy could evaluate a statement...I couldn't read a TLE if my life depended on it.

They did. The quoted statement doesn't hold much water. 

Asked and answered, Counselors...lets all move on.


----------



## Tom Robertson

Looking back at the various STAs, D10 might not be ahead of schedule as much as once thought, but the original plan was for D10 to start drifting on the 12th, still two days from now. Future TLEs will confirm movements.

Relax everyone, and stick to TECH in this thread. Rumors have been and will continue to be deleted from this thread.

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## RAD

gslater said:


> It's really beside the point. The fact is that if the inclination is enough to affect the aiming of spot beams then I would think it could be corrected with the thrusters. I'm not an expert but it certainly seems like it would be easier to adjust the inclination than it would be to adjust the position since you're not fighting gravity to adjust the inclination.


Well, the point was that the OP said D10 had no spotbeams, just correcting him. As for aiming spot beams, wouldn't that be something that would need to be verified and tested once it actually reached it licensed location since while they might have the aim OK at testing there could be a problem there?


----------



## Tom Robertson

gslater said:


> It's really beside the point. The fact is that if the inclination is enough to affect the aiming of spot beams then I would think it could be corrected with the thrusters. I'm not an expert but it certainly seems like it would be easier to adjust the inclination than it would be to adjust the position since you're not fighting gravity to adjust the inclination.


I'm pretty certain the inclination is well within the specifications for operation of the satellite. Yes, Ka is a much narrower signal, but that still should work with a properly aligned dish.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## syphix

RAD said:


> Well, the point was that the OP said D10 had no spotbeams, just correcting him. As for aiming spot beams, wouldn't that be something that would need to be verified and tested once it actually reached it licensed location since while they might have the aim OK at testing there could be a problem there?


Sorry...I misspoke..or misunderstood. I was under the assumption that D10 & D11 had no spot beams. Sorry.


----------



## oakwcj

New TLE:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07252.13215799 -.00000124 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00774
2 31862 000.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 014.8965 01.00271734000650


----------



## oakwcj

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	09-09-2007 03:10:18
Orbit # at Epoch	65
Inclination	0.078
RA of A. Node	296.401
Eccentricity	0.0000289
Argument of Perigee	341.507
Revs per day	1.00271734
Period	23h 56m 05s (1436.8 min)
Semi-major axis	42 165 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 785 x 35 788 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	14.897
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	0077 / 1 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary


----------



## Tom Robertson

Please do not ask for MOD help within the thread. Please either ignore the posts, we are cleaning them up as fast as we can (remember we're volunteers), or report them using the "Report Post" button. (I may retract that for this thread.)

I've already deleted many posts this morning and am continuing to do so.

Thanks for your patience,
Tom


----------



## markymouse

what does a TLE say that n2yo doesn't? Can you not tell if it's moving by looking @ this site?? 

New to the forum and don't know the difference in the info.


----------



## Ken984

Lower inclination and the eccentricity unchanged, although this is from yesterday so we are still without a "current" tle. Maybe another is forthcoming, Spacetrack seems to be updating at a furious pace today.


----------



## syphix

Ken984 said:


> Lower inclination and the eccentricity unchanged, although this is from yesterday so we are still without a "current" tle. Maybe another is forthcoming, Spacetrack seems to be updating at a furious pace today.


Perhaps Spacetrack was having problems over the weekend...hmm...


----------



## oakwcj

The sat is currently at 102.5664. In about 28 hours it will reach 102.5711 before heading east again. The apogee hasn't changed since the last TLE. The wait for a faster drift continues, if you catch my drift.


----------



## Ken984

markymouse said:


> what does a TLE say that n2yo doesn't? Can you not tell if it's moving by looking @ this site??
> 
> New to the forum and don't know the difference in the info.


N2yo is generally behind in using the updated tle to report the "current" location. All of our reports are projections based on the latest tle, so if theirs is outdated then the sat is not where they say. But this weekend n onew tles were released at all so while the one we are using is more recent it is still more than 24 hrs old.


----------



## LameLefty

markymouse said:


> what does a TLE say that n2yo doesn't? Can you not tell if it's moving by looking @ this site??
> 
> New to the forum and don't know the difference in the info.


Hello fellow Vols fan and welcome to DBSTalk. 

Now, this thread is pretty darn long but that info gets gone over every couple of days (part of the reason why it's so long . . . :lol. That site uses the same TLEs that we are using with our own tracking software but (1), their data is usually hours or even days out of date - ours is much fresher, which is important for tracking maneuvering space vehicles ; and (2) the math powering that site's tracking info doesn't appear to be quite as accurate even when using the same data, but that may depend on when the tracking is done and which standalone program it's being compared to.


----------



## markymouse

thanks for the help guys, learning my way through some of this!! This forum will drive you nuts with anticipation!!!

I LOVE IT!


----------



## dcben

oakwcj said:


> The sat is currently at 102.5664. In about 28 hours it will reach 102.5711 before heading east again. The apogee hasn't changed since the last TLE. The wait for a faster drift continues, if you catch my drift.


The rev/da figure is still changing in the right direction, with much farther to go. Down to 1.00271734, declining another .00000020.

Perhaps they want to correct the inclination first, to save fuel starting and stopping the longitude drift.

Bem


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> Perhaps they want to correct the inclination first, to save fuel starting and stopping the longitude drift.


In-plane maneuvers are much more fuel-efficient than out-of-plane maneuvers - that means that to increase the apogee and drift west without changing the inclination at the same time is more fuel-efficient than doing both at the same time. The inclination is still pretty equatorial, just not as low as they would probably prefer. So, that's why, it seems to me, the the inclination is being tweaked lower and lower while the eccentricity isn't changing much. In fact, it's quite probable that lowering the inclination (which is an out-of-plane maneuver) is causing the eccentricity to increase slightly purely as a side-effect of the burns, all by itself. I have no clue how the thrusters (apogee motor or XIPS) are aligned with respect to the spacecraft center of mass, and whether offsets are being fully damped out by control-moment gyros rather than perfectly symmetrical thruster firings.

And as for how much difference this makes, let me just say this: on the old Space Station Freedom program (now the ISS), I was once responsible for the design of a non-propulsive vent system for the carbon dioxide removal assembly for the U.S. Lab Module (now called Destiny). There was enough concern that the flow of about two tenths of a pound of CO2 per day, even at that location close to the center of mass of the station, was too much of a load on the station CMGs given all the other disturbances they were required to deal with and damp out.

So if you'll forgive the old war story, tiny discrepancies do sometimes matter.  If the inclination changes are the SLIGHTEST bit off-angle, the eccentricity could be increasing totally incidentally, with "The Move" westward to come in 48 hours as-scheduled after the inclination is even closer to zero (when the apogee change and later reduction at the final slot would be most fuel-efficient as well).


----------



## Tom Robertson

LameLefty said:


> So if you'll forgive the old war story, tiny discrepancies do sometimes matter.  ...


Old war stories describing the complexities of what is going on are not only forgiven, but also greatly appreciated. Thanks for the fantastic analysis and information.

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## Ken984

Yep, thanks Lefty, good to know that there are perfectly reasonable things going on despite all the "OMG where is my HD" posts.


----------



## LameLefty

You guys are welcome.

Of course, I could be totally out in left field and the darned thing may be doing a jig up there because someone uploaded _The Macarena_ instead of the correct command and control sequences for all I know.

What I DO know is, this stuff IS rocket science and it's much better to be slow and safe than lose a vehicle or cut its life short by a few months in haste to do two maneuvers at once just to shave a week off the prep time.


----------



## SteveHas

LameLefty said:


> In-plane maneuvers are much more fuel-efficient than out-of-plane maneuvers - that means that to increase the apogee and drift west without changing the inclination at the same time is more fuel-efficient than doing both at the same time. The inclination is still pretty equatorial, just not as low as they would probably prefer. So, that's why, it seems to me, the the inclination is being tweaked lower and lower while the eccentricity isn't changing much. In fact, it's quite probable that lowering the inclination (which is an out-of-plane maneuver) is causing the eccentricity to increase slightly purely as a side-effect of the burns, all by itself. I have no clue how the thrusters (apogee motor or XIPS) are aligned with respect to the spacecraft center of mass, and whether offsets are being fully damped out by control-moment gyros rather than perfectly symmetrical thruster firings.
> 
> And as for how much difference this makes, let me just say this: on the old Space Station Freedom program (now the ISS), I was once responsible for the design of a non-propulsive vent system for the carbon dioxide removal assembly for the U.S. Lab Module (now called Destiny). There was enough concern that the flow of about two tenths of a pound of CO2 per day, even at that location close to the center of mass of the station, was too much of a load on the station CMGs given all the other disturbances they were required to deal with and damp out.
> 
> So if you'll forgive the old war story, tiny discrepancies do sometimes matter.  If the inclination changes are the SLIGHTEST bit off-angle, the eccentricity could be increasing totally incidentally, with "The Move" westward to come in 48 hours as-scheduled after the inclination is even closer to zero (when the apogee change and later reduction at the final slot would be most fuel-efficient as well).


Man I love this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## FeelForce1

Tom Robertson said:


> Old war stories describing the complexities of what is going on are not only forgiven, but also greatly appreciated. Thanks for the fantastic analysis and information.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Couldn't agree more! Although, I don't quite have a grasp on the tle yet, but because I was an F-15 mechanic and instructor for many years I can make sense of the dynamic behavior and the need to get it right before lighting it up. And yes reminiscing can be fun and educational. 
Tom


----------



## Sixto

LameLefty said:


> I could be totally out in left field ...


Lefty, your thoughts from left field are enjoyable to those of us on the bench and in the stands ... thanks for the insight ... fascinating stuff!


----------



## donshan

markymouse said:


> what does a TLE say that n2yo doesn't? Can you not tell if it's moving by looking @ this site??
> 
> New to the forum and don't know the difference in the info.


 Welcome and your question has come up a lot so let me explain for all newcomers.

I was a newcomer too several months ago, but learned a lot by reading the posts here and some study. It is important to understand that all D10 positions reported including n2yo are not "real time", but are calculated from data taken at a very specific date and time by NORAD.

The latest TLE posted here:


> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07252.13215799 -.00000124 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00774
> 2 31862 000.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 014.8965 01.00271734000650


That third group of numbers in line 1 is the date/time where you should especially note that the 07 is the year, the 252 is the 252nd day of the year , and .13215799 is the fraction of a 24 hour day that can be converted to time as hr, min, sec.

If you go to this Celestrak site:

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

You will see at the top of the page the day number for today is September 10 is day 253. which began at midnight Universal Time which is 4 hours earlier than EDT. ( 5 hr when we go off of daylight time) This day will change to day 254 at 8 PM EDT tonight.

Thus the latest TLE published by NORAD which is for day 252 is from yesterday.

IF there were zero orbit manuvers in the past day, a caculated position now ( nearing the end of day 253) might be close to right, but if they are adjusting the orbit during the past day ( and they probably are) everyone doing position calculations just doesn't have exactly current status .

Neither does n2yo. If you click on "details' in the bottom of their "Real Time Position" box ( which is NOT real time) and scroll to the bottom of the page you can see the TLE data they are using whicn now is from day 251 and is 2 days older and they are assuming zero orbit changes in the past two ( plus a fraction) days:

From bottom of current n2yo "details" page



> 1 31862U 07032A 07251.46296024 -.00000125 00000-0 10000-3 0 769
> 2 31862 000.0793 296.3785 0000289 341.6382 133.2174 01.00271754 656


Typically n2yo is slow to update and is almost always not as current as location posts here:

I hope this detailed explanation will help those who keep bringing up n2yo as somehow "better" than posts here when it is usually out of date.


----------



## dedalus_00

LameLefty said:


> In-plane maneuvers are much more fuel-efficient than out-of-plane maneuvers - that means that to increase the apogee and drift west without changing the inclination at the same time is more fuel-efficient than doing both at the same time. The inclination is still pretty equatorial, just not as low as they would probably prefer. So, that's why, it seems to me, the the inclination is being tweaked lower and lower while the eccentricity isn't changing much. In fact, it's quite probable that lowering the inclination (which is an out-of-plane maneuver) is causing the eccentricity to increase slightly purely as a side-effect of the burns, all by itself. I have no clue how the thrusters (apogee motor or XIPS) are aligned with respect to the spacecraft center of mass, and whether offsets are being fully damped out by control-moment gyros rather than perfectly symmetrical thruster firings.
> 
> And as for how much difference this makes, let me just say this: on the old Space Station Freedom program (now the ISS), I was once responsible for the design of a non-propulsive vent system for the carbon dioxide removal assembly for the U.S. Lab Module (now called Destiny). There was enough concern that the flow of about two tenths of a pound of CO2 per day, even at that location close to the center of mass of the station, was too much of a load on the station CMGs given all the other disturbances they were required to deal with and damp out.
> 
> So if you'll forgive the old war story, tiny discrepancies do sometimes matter.  If the inclination changes are the SLIGHTEST bit off-angle, the eccentricity could be increasing totally incidentally, with "The Move" westward to come in 48 hours as-scheduled after the inclination is even closer to zero (when the apogee change and later reduction at the final slot would be most fuel-efficient as well).


Jeez Lefty, if you're so smart why can't you just hack into D10s navigation and tell it to go where we want it to go!? If it were up to the folks here at DBSTalk, I'm sure D10 would have been on-line and broadcasting the new HDs before the launch window even passed!  
Seriously though, your wisdom is a breath of fresh air -- a nice reminder of all of the hard work that is surely going on behind the scenes on this project. I think some of tend to have unrealistic expectations, and a misguided idea that this should be much simpler than it really is. Thanks! :biggthump


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok Ken, or Lefty, When do we usually see new tle's. I thought they were posted every day. Having said that is it possible D10 started its move over the weekend and we just don't know. (highly doubtful)


----------



## syphix

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ok Ken, or Lefty, When do we usually see new tle's. I thought they were posted every day. Having said that is it possible D10 started its move over the weekend and we just don't know. (highly doubtful)


The latest TLE is over 24 hours old and shows very, VERY small movement...but seems to indicate the move has either begun or is being prepared to begin. TLE's are hard to come by recently, though, so we just don't know if it's started to move.


----------



## Ken984

Most of the time it has been 1 per day, however there have been days with multiple tles.


----------



## computersecguy

Ken and Lefty... I have a potentially dumb question... What exactly are the TLEs used for? Are these commands that are sent to the bird in which the bird then acts upon, or are these calculations on where the bird should be? The reason I ask is that if the rumor is correct in the avs forum and something may be wrong, is it possible that they are unable to move from the current location?


----------



## Bly

computersecguy said:


> Ken and Lefty... I have a potentially dumb question... What exactly are the TLEs used for? Are these commands that are sent to the bird in which the bird then acts upon, or are these calculations on where the bird should be? The reason I ask is that if the rumor is correct in the avs forum and something may be wrong, is it possible that they are unable to move from the current location?


TLE = Two-Line Elements

They are only used to describe where the sat is located, it's direction, speed, etc. The TLEs we get are 24 plus hours behind it seems.

The sky isn't falling, don't listen to the rumors....

see: http://www.satobs.org/tletools.html


----------



## Ken984

TLE shows the position of the bird at a particular point in time, they can then be used to project the future movements(providing they are updated often enough). These are generated by NORAD using military equipment to determine where and what everything in space is doing.

And there is NO problem with the bird as far as ANYONE knows. Those rumors were started by some people with an axe to grind against D* or some other agenda.


----------



## LameLefty

computersecguy said:


> Ken and Lefty... I have a potentially dumb question... What exactly are the TLEs used for? Are these commands that are sent to the bird in which the bird then acts upon, or are these calculations on where the bird should be? The reason I ask is that if the rumor is correct in the avs forum and something may be wrong, is it possible that they are unable to move from the current location?


TLEs are a "Two Line Elements", a standard set of numerical descriptors that tell you everything you need to know to be able to plot and predict a satellite's orbit and thus it's position relative to the earth's surface at any given time. The format has been used by NORAD, NASA and other agencies for decades and relies on certain mathematical models of the earth's shape and gravity profile (which is not entirely constant throughout the earth). They are merely a description of the orbit and not commands or controls at all.

The U.S. Air Force Space Command keeps track of pretty much every object in near-earth space out to probably the moon's orbit or beyond that may be bigger than a couple inches across. These objects are tracked by radar, infrared, optically and by signals tracking. When enough data is collected indicating a change in orbit from the last calculated orbit, the element set for that object is updated. The elements are published on Space-Track.org by a private company contracted by Space Command to make the data available to other government agencies and the public (if you sign up for an account). Celestrak republishes the data by agreement with Space Command but the data is often several hours old.

In the case of D10, the elements have been updated almost daily since launch - sometimes more than once per day, sometimes (like the last few days), less often. As I noted in another thread, if some sources about new HD going live tomorrow are correct, I'm wondering if Space Command isn't withholding an updated elset at Boeing/DirecTV's request.


----------



## noneroy

computersecguy said:


> The reason I ask is that if the rumor is correct in the avs forum and something may be wrong, is it possible that they are unable to move from the current location?


I don't put much stock in this. The experts here (which I trust on this) have said that the sat could broadcast and be seen by our dishes in it's current location. I'm betting if they couldn't move it (and obviously they can if it's staying in some sort of relative geo-stationary orbit), they could just fire the son-of-a-gun up where it is and rock and roll.

People always assume the worst for some reason. DirecTV has not officially said anything either way. Anything that may get your nickers in a knot is probably the result of the conjecture of e-diots. I'll trust our experts in this thread.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Even if we could see the channels I don't think they would do that. It will be parkes before it goes live.and what about spaceway 1 or 2 didn't they have to be moved slightly to get D10 in position? Ken or Lefty where are they, and could thier tle's tell us the move is on the way when compared to thier old ones?


----------



## Herdfan

If the handoff is set for the 12th as has been reported, is there a standard time that it will happen such as 00:00:00 GMT or is it something that would be specified in the contract between the parties?


----------



## purtman

*If *they are to go live on the 12th, expect to see them some time during the morning.


----------



## Alan Gordon

purtman said:


> *If *they are to go live on the 12th, expect to see them some time during the morning.


With the exception of HD-LIL (or HD-RSNs) which I can't comment on, the MAJORITY of the HD channels added (TNT-HD, ESPN2-HD, BravoHD+, HD-DNS channels, etc) were actually turned ON around 6:00 or 7:00 P.M. EDT... so that might not be the case... we don't know...

~Alan


----------



## Ken984

No movement by the Spaceway 1 sat will not help with determining D10 at this point. We are in a holding pattern, no new tle since Sunday. When they do move it will have to be parked and alignment checked, transponders fired up, it will take a little time once it is parked before we see anything. Bschneider will more than likely see live feeds in engineering mode a cpl of days before we see anything other than actual readings on the 103b screen(if he didn't get fed up and quit posting again).


----------



## dbsdave

Ken984 said:


> No movement by the Spaceway 1 sat will not help with determining D10 at this point. We are in a holding pattern, no new tle since Sunday. When they do move it will have to be parked and alignment checked, transponders fired up, it will take a little time once it is parked before we see anything. Bschneider will more than likely see live feeds in engineering mode a cpl of days before we see anything other than actual readings on the 103b screen(if he didn't get fed up and quit posting again).


Yep, Im afraid seeing any channels tomorrow is pretty much a pipedream. I am still in the hoping nothing has gone wrong praying mode, at least until we finally see some movement.


----------



## mobandit

mobandit said:


> I used to be stationed at Naval Space Command (now defunct) and we didn't update TLE's unless there were changes or "expected" changes on anything except manned missions. NSC was the primary backup to US Space Command for tracking orbiting objects, USSC was who sent the information to NORAD.


I don't know if it has changed since I left Naval Space Command...but again, we didn't update/post a new TLE unless there was a change to an expected orbit or we were expecting an orbit to change as a result of a maneuver. The only exception to this was for manned missions which were followed much more closely.

If there isn't a new TLE is may just mean that the orbit hasn't changed...


----------



## TARDIS

Please forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere. I only have a quick moment to scan through the thread. If there are no TLE updates for D10 and it seems that some people are wondering why no update for the Sat has anyone been able to check to see if there are updated TLE's for the other Satellites or is it only D10 that has not been updated. At least that way we know if all Satellites that aren't being updated or just D10. I would check myself but I am not exactly sure how to do it.


----------



## John4924

TARDIS said:


> Please forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere. I only have a quick moment to scan through the thread. If there are no TLE updates for D10 and it seems that some people are wondering why no update for the Sat has anyone been able to check to see if there are updated TLE's for the other Satellites or is it only D10 that has not been updated. At least that way we know if all Satellites that aren't being updated or just D10. I would check myself but I am not exactly sure how to do it.


You can go here...

http://www.celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

click on geostationary and look for yourself. There are many with updates yesterday, and a few with updates today. Whether this means anything or not, I do not know.


----------



## donshan

TARDIS said:


> Please forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere. I only have a quick moment to scan through the thread. If there are no TLE updates for D10 and it seems that some people are wondering why no update for the Sat has anyone been able to check to see if there are updated TLE's for the other Satellites or is it only D10 that has not been updated. At least that way we know if all Satellites that aren't being updated or just D10. I would check myself but I am not exactly sure how to do it.


This public Celestrak site below lists TLEs, but Ken and Lamelefty and others have sources that update more quickly than this site: (scroll to bottom for DirecTV 10).

However the current day number is now well into day 254 ( it will become day 255 at 8PM EDT tonight). Celelestrak has ChinaSat 6B already updated to day 253.59864740 which was yesterday afternoon whereas DirecTV is now over two days old at 252.13215799 which I believe is the latest TLE posted here too so far.

A number of others have day 253 TLE updates.

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/geo.txt



> CHINASAT 6B
> 1 31800U 07031A 07253.59864740 -.00000377 00000-0 10000-3 0 468
> 2 31800 0.0160 175.0232 0001959 12.3661 132.9143 1.00274574 737
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07252.13215799 -.00000124 00000-0 10000-3 0 774
> 2 31862 0.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 14.8965 1.00271734 650


Edit: Thanks John. I was typing and did not see your post. Yes you are right there are some day 254 updates. 



> APSTAR 1
> 1 23185U 94043A 07254.13429380 -.00000277 00000-0 10000-3 0 7233
> 2 23185 2.8292 80.5724 0001029 133.8221 325.7307 1.00273109 48116


----------



## TARDIS

Thank you. That info was helpful.


----------



## dogs31

So that means we're there, right?


----------



## LameLefty

Not directly related to DirecTV or D10, but specifically on-topic for the idea of tracking satellites and the public availability of data . . .

Yet another reason I still read Slashdot ('cause I missed this awhile back on Space.com): French threaten to expose secret U.S. satellites.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/11/0117216&from=rss

Interesting quote:


> "Right now we do not have enough cards in our hand to begin negotiatons," Blin said here at the Graves radar transmitter site June 7. "We need more time to be sure of what we are seeing. At that point we can tell our American friends, 'We have seen some things that you might wish to keep out of the public domain. We will agree to do this if you agree to stop publishing the location of our sensitive satellites."


----------



## dcben

donshan said:


> This public Celestrak site below lists TLEs, but Ken and Lamelefty and others have sources that update more quickly than this site: (scroll to bottom for DirecTV 10).
> 
> However the current day number is now well into day 254 ( it will become day 255 at 8PM EDT tonight). Celelestrak has ChinaSat 6B already updated to day 253.59864740 which was yesterday afternoon whereas DirecTV is now over two days old at 252.13215799 which I believe is the latest TLE posted here too so far.
> 
> A number of others have day 253 TLE updates.
> 
> http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/geo.txt
> 
> Edit: Thanks John. I was typing and did not see your post. Yes you are right there are some day 254 updates.


Including Spaceway 2

SPACEWAY 2
1 28903U 05046B 07254.51632716 -.00000138 00000-0 10000-3 0 3469
2 28903 000.0280 350.7522 0000136 322.7374 123.3300 01.00271842 6773

Ben


----------



## LameLefty

> Including Spaceway 2


What about Spaceway 1, I wonder? 

Nevermind, it has one too.


----------



## donshan

dogs31 said:


> So that means we're there, right?


No. It means there is no new info that says D10 has moved to its operational position, but it has been over two days since any updated info about D10s location.

It may just be that D* has applied their blackout rules to this game . "Consult your Guide for alternate programing"


----------



## dcben

LameLefty said:


> What about Spaceway 1, I wonder?
> 
> Nevermind, it has one too.


In fact, FWIW, of all the DirecTv and Spaceway sats, all (except DirecTV 7s) have more recent TLEs than DirecTv 10.


----------



## moonman

Cumlative for S/W1....
SPACEWAY 1
1 28644U 05015A 07254.47934718 -.00000115 00000-0 10000-3 0 4195
2 28644 000.0260 018.4484 0000123 011.6401 029.7024 01.00271621 8790
1 28644U 05015A 07251.46296144 -.00000123 00000-0 10000-3 0 4183
2 28644 000.0172 032.1359 0000135 042.3759 336.4063 01.00271560 8766
1 28644U 05015A 07248.27172321 -.00000119 00000-0 10000-3 0 4172
2 28644 000.0173 315.0735 0000064 044.4522 339.4027 01.00271935 8725
1 28644U 05015A 07245.34011889 -.00000109 00000-0 10000-3 0 4166
2 28644 000.0193 293.3504 0000100 058.8834 008.4233 01.00271378 8706
1 28644U 05015A 07241.41038069 -.00000106 00000-0 10000-3 0 4155
2 28644 000.0190 299.1785 0000139 053.0861 029.8221 01.00271894 8669


----------



## RoundRockJohn

donshan said:


> No. It means there is no new info that says D10 has moved to its operational position, but it has been over two days since any updated info about D10s location.
> 
> It may just be that D* has applied their blackout rules to this game . "Consult your Guide for alternate programing"


If I had to bet, I'd say it's right where boeing wants it for it's final testing. If a 9/12 hand off is what they want, having it not moving is probably a good thing.


----------



## donshan

DirecTV 9s TLE has been updated to day 253 so NORAD is updating other DirecTV satellites:



> DIRECTV 9S
> 1 29494U 06043A 07253.21149277 -.00000130 00000-0 10000-3 0 1767
> 2 29494 0.0181 268.8241 0001082 352.2974 62.7265 1.00271106 3362


----------



## dogs31

RoundRockJohn said:


> If I had to bet, I'd say it's right where boeing wants it for it's final testing. If a 9/12 hand off is what they want, having it not moving is probably a good thing.


The 12th is so close I can smell it

12th of September (sing to the tune of 8th of November by Big and Rich)

On the 12th of September
HDs were glowing
As Boeing handed the satellite away
DBSTalk.com was abuzzing
And the TV was sludging
Through 100 HD channels aglore
Saw the happiness
Of DBSTalk.com and their users
On the 12th of September
The 12th of Spetember


----------



## donshan

RoundRockJohn said:


> If I had to bet, I'd say it's right where boeing wants it for it's final testing. If a 9/12 hand off is what they want, having it not moving is probably a good thing.


That would make D* responsible for the final orbital moves. I have seen no factual info on the contract, but the Spaceway 2 handoff did not occur until it was in its final operational slot and completely ready for HD LIL.

If I were D* I would write the contract something like ," fully tested,  fully operational and delivered in GSO orbit and stable at the FCC assigned operational position".

Edit: If D* were to accept D10 in the testing slot, they open themselves up to a lot of extra costs and possible problems. Boeing is getting paid to do it for them as I see it.


----------



## petergaryr

dogs31 said:


> The 12th is so close I can smell it
> 
> 12th of September (sing to the tune of 8th of November by Big and Rich)
> 
> On the 12th of September
> HDs were glowing
> As Boeing handed the satellite away
> DBSTalk.com was abuzzing
> And the TV was sludging
> Through 100 HD channels aglore
> Saw the happiness
> Of DBSTalk.com and their users
> On the 12th of September
> The 12th of Spetember


...could also be sung to the tune of "Twelfth of Never"....but let's not get crazy. :lol:


----------



## Sixto

Gotta believe Boeing is responsible to 102.775.


----------



## CTJon

This thread has probably educated me more than the last 10+ years of other type of learning thanks,

People seem to be worried about something. If there were manuvering problems with D10 - wouldn't that have to be reported because it would affect other sats potentially. D* is just probably hiding facts from us because they want to see how big this thread gets with people guessing.

It may be here in the technical one or the other topic and maybe I missed it, but why do they have to test from a different location from the final broadcasting location? Is it an issue with interfearing with other signals? Why couldn't they just go to the end location and then test? Or go there now even if more testing is needed. I understand that they can only do live broadcasting from a location because that is what is licensed but technically why testing?
Thanks,


----------



## Ken984

Interference is the main reason, would not want to cause problems with Spaceway 1 trying to check the footprint of D10. usually testing slots are fairly far from the final position but this time its just across the street(if the street was 100 miles or so wide).


----------



## Tom Robertson

donshan said:


> That would make D* responsible for the final orbital moves. I have seen no factual info on the contract, but the Spaceway 2 handoff did not occur until it was in its final operational slot and completely ready for HD LIL.
> 
> If I were D* I would write the contract something like ," fully tested, fully operational and delivered in GSO orbit and stable at the FCC assigned operational position".


The contract for Spaceway 1/2 is likely different in many respects, some we are certain of: 1) Spaceway 1/2 were delivered to DIRECTV in space but D10/11/12 are delivered on the ground; 2) DIRECTV then has language in the D10/D11 contracts for services to be performed in space but that has been redacted from the FCC public form; 3) Spaceway 1/2 were ordered by Hughes not DIRECTV for a different purpose.

The on the ground delivery was purely an insurance/title of ownership thing. Boeing was still responsible for the in-space testing and warranty of their work. The big question is when does the contract specify Boeing's work is done? After final drift to the orbital slot or before. Both companies perform lots of orbital movements so I can see it either way. My guess is Boeing is responsible for the final parking, but I admit I might be wrong. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## dcben

Donshan. Lefty,

Here's a completely non-conspiratorial suggestion as to why the delay in TLE release. What do you think?

The TLE orbital elements are only useful in plotting future positions if the satellite is essentially following a ballistic trajectory. If its thrusters are firing, the parameters are continuously out of date (although I know there are first and second derivatives of the rev/da value included in the TLE's--so maybe this is all wrong). But for how long do the low power thrusters fire during relocation exercise? What I'm suggesting is that if Boeing or D* is actively adjusting the orbit and there is a long or even intermittent series of thruster fires, TLE's would be quickly obsolete, so not worth posting.

Confirm or shoot down?:kickbutt: 

Ben


----------



## donshan

dcben said:


> Donshan. Lefty,
> 
> Here's a completely non-conspiratorial suggestion as to why the delay in TLE release. What do you think?
> 
> The TLE orbital elements are only useful in plotting future positions if the satellite is essentially following a ballistic trjectory. If it its thrusters are firing, the parameters are continuously out of date (although I know there are first and second derivatives of the rev/da value included in the TLE's--so maybe this is all wrong). But for how long do the low power thusters fire during relocation excercise? What I'm suggesting is that if Boeing or D* is actively adjusting the orbit and there is a long or even intermittant series of thuster fires, TLE's would be quickly obsolete, so not worth posting.
> 
> Confirm or shhot down?:kickbutt:
> 
> Ben


In the past such orbit changing was underway as D10 was moved into its present testing slot. NORAD updated the D10 TLE sets several times in one day. Lefty followed this better than I did however.


----------



## oakwcj

From the user agreement:

The Space-Track.Org website provides access to satellite orbital data
received from Department of Defense (DoD). This is the same data, with
the same latency that has been provided by the NASA Orbital Information
Group (OIG) website for many years. This orbital data consists of
Two-Line Element (TLE) sets, Satellite Catalog Messages, Project Tip
Messages, Satellite Decay Messages, Predicted Decay Forecasts, Satellite
Box Scores, and Satellite Reports....

TLEs are posted in near real time as updates are received from
the DoD. While the website does no modification of the data presented,
there is no claim or certification of the accuracy of the data....

This website is owned and operated by the U.S. Government. The U.S.
Government provides the data and other materials on this website as a
public and general act as a sovereign subject to its discretion
concerning the allocation of U.S. Government resources that may be
available to support this or other national initiatives.


There is no suggestion here that a private company runs space-track.org, although that may be the case. I was considering sending them an email asking if there is a blackout on Directv 10, but decided that the chances of getting an answer were slim, and my ability to evaluate the credibility of a potential response was nil.


----------



## Herdfan

Tom Robertson said:


> Both companies perform lots of orbital movements so I can see it either way. My guess is Boeing is responsible for the final parking, but I admit I might be wrong.


Does D* "fly" their own satellites or do they have someone like Boeing do it for them?


----------



## Interceptor

dcben said:


> But for how long do the low power thrusters fire during relocation exercise?
> Ben


Thruster fire should be very brief, as they only want to nudge D10 just a little in altitude to get the westward movement. If they overdo it, they have to use more energy to stop it when it gets to the correct slot.


----------



## dogs31

Interceptor said:


> Thruster fire should be very brief, as they only want to nudge D10 just a little in altitude to get the westward movement. If they overdo it, they have to use more energy to stop it when it gets to the correct slot.


You mean the "Road Runner" thrust move? Beep Beep


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> There is no suggestion here that a private company runs space-track.org, although that may be the case.


There is a U.S. Space Command press release on their website from a few years ago when they took over the task of publishing TLEs from NASA and it specifically mentions that the site would be run by a contractor. Also, if you do WHOIS search on Space-Track.org, it just leads to a nondescript hosting company somewhere in Scottsdale, as I recall, not a U.S. government agency or .mil domain.



> Thruster fire should be very brief, as they only want to nudge D10 just a little in altitude to get the westward movement. If they overdo it, they have to use more energy to stop it when it gets to the correct slot.


XIPS is very, very low thrust so long-duration burns are very common. That being said, there's no way Space Command can keep track of which objects are maneuvering and which ones are not unless each one of them is being actively observed continuously, which is basically impossible given how many objects are tracked. Some are no doubt observed 24/7, but most are seen for a few moments, to get a series of sequential positions, then the orbit is plotted from that.


----------



## dcben

LameLefty said:


> XIPS is very, very low thrust so long-duration burns are very common. That being said, there's no way Space Command can keep track of which objects are maneuvering and which ones are not unless each one of them is being actively observed continuously, which is basically impossible given how many objects are tracked. Some are no doubt observed 24/7, but most are seen for a few moments, to get a series of sequential positions, then the orbit is plotted from that.


Lefty,

Then maybe, just maybe, when Space Command enters the short sequence of positions into its computers, the computer can tell that there are inconsistencies introduced due to an ongoing XIPS burn. (The second derivative value would not be zero, like it usually is.) In those cases (non-zero second derivatives) maybe the TLEs are automatically withheld.

THIS IS PURE SPECULATION (Makes sense to me, though.):scratchin

Ben


----------



## dcben

Here's the last posted D10 TLE. the second derivative value is in bold:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07252.13215799 -.00000124 *+00000-0 *+10000-3 0 00774
2 31862 000.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 014.8965 01.00271734000650

It's meaning, according to Space Track is: 2nd Derivative of the Mean Motion with respect to Time (decimal point assumed)

What I'm suggesting is that non-zero TLE's might not be released as a matter of course. (They wouldn't be useful in tracking software.)

If I'm right, it is an indication that the move is indeed underway.

Ben


----------



## keithw1975

Since we pay for the government to track all these satellites shouldn't they have an obligation to publish where these things are, unless it affects national security of course. I mean a company like D* can't just tell them not to say where the satellite is right?


----------



## LameLefty

dcben said:


> Lefty,
> 
> Then maybe, just maybe, when Space Command enters the short sequence of positions into its computers, the computer can tell that there are inconsistencies introduced due to an ongoing XIPS burn. (The second derivative value would not be zero, like it usually is.) In those cases (non-zero second derivatives) maybe the TLEs are automatically withheld.
> 
> THIS IS PURE SPECULATION (Makes sense to me, though.):scratchin
> 
> Ben


Could be - I do know that when the TLEs have been released "out of sequence" (e.g., those with earlier epoch dates being sent out after a newer set) the numbers are often not quite the same format as those "clean" sets, with leading zeros and spurious signs (+ or -). I have speculated that those out-of-sequence numbers are withheld because the data doesn't look quite right to the processing software, then massaged or reconstructed after the fact for later distribution as historical data. If the data is mangled due to readings taken during long-duration XIPS firings and later reconstructed after the fact, that might explain those out-of-sequence TLEs.

So if we get a new TLE tonight or tomorrow that shows the sat parked at 102.775W, and then a SECOND "new" set with an earlier epoch date (and especially if it has those weird formatting issues, maybe we're onto something.


----------



## LameLefty

keithw1975 said:


> Since we pay for the government to track all these satellites shouldn't they have an obligation to publish where these things are, unless it affects national security of course. I mean a company like D* can't just tell them not to say where the satellite is right?


You would hope not, but mine and others' thoughts about that have already been deemed too political for this forum (as they probably are), and deleted. So let's not discuss that further - I'd like to participate here as long as Chris, Earl, Tom, Stuart, Doug, et al. allow me to.


----------



## Sirshagg

Sixto said:


> Gotta believe Boeing is responsible to 102.775.


While I have absolutely no reason whatsover to believe this I would think that Boeing is responsible for getting it to the final orbit.


----------



## keithw1975

Didn't know that was a touchy subject.

I would really think that D* would have a link on their website that people could go to and track the movements and read updates of what was going on. It would be good for them and make all the enthusiasts very happy.

Keith


----------



## donshan

Interceptor said:


> Thruster fire should be very brief, as they only want to nudge D10 just a little in altitude to get the westward movement. If they overdo it, they have to use more energy to stop it when it gets to the correct slot.


Perhaps you (or anyone else here) can help me understand this a bit more as I am a real beginner on satellite design and operation. I assume from Boeing's description of the XIPS thrusters at the link below that they will be using ( "are using" ) the two XIPS units for this orbit drift maneuver where normal station keeping uses them 30 minutes per day (quote below). This link gives the thrust of these units and the Boeing D10 spec sheet gives the in " Beginning of life in-orbit mass of 3,700 kg."

I would guess an orbit change burn would take longer than just station keeping. 
*Is is possible to estimate the XIPS burn time to move D10 the aprox. 100 miles in 3 days? *

As Lefty posted above these XIPS units are low thrust but can sustain long burn times.

Link:

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html
Quote -bold added:



> Boeing 702 Thruster:
> 25 centimeters in diameter
> 3800 seconds ISP
> 165 mN of thrust
> ...skip
> A typical satellite will use up to four XIPS thrusters (two primary, two redundant) for stationkeeping, all connected to the same xenon supply. Each primary device will be switched on and off by a smart power unit that monitors and diagnoses operations automatically. In normal operation, each Boeing 601HP ion thruster will operate for approximately 5 hours per day. Each Boeing 702 ion thruster will operate for approximately 30 minutes per day.
> ...skip
> The Boeing 702 offers the additional option of XIPS orbit raising. Using XIPS to augment transfer orbit further reduces the amount of chemical propellant loaded. Larger payloads can thus be accommodated, with greater flexibility in the choice and use of a launch vehicle. Chemical propellant is used to place the satellite into a supersynchronous elliptical transfer orbit, *and pre-programmed XIPS maneuvers are used to circularize the orbit and position the satellite in its final orbit.*


----------



## Ken984

keithw1975 said:


> Didn't know that was a touchy subject.
> 
> I would really think that D* would have a link on their website that people could go to and track the movements and read updates of what was going on. It would be good for them and make all the enthusiasts very happy.
> 
> Keith


Not D*, never. If it wasn't for Earl making some good friends there we would not have the Ce program due to the overwhelming theme at D* of "secrecy". They have always been VERY VERY quiet about anything that was not 100% ready to go. Typically announcing new channels days even weeks after we had been watching them.


----------



## Sixto

Funny ... who would have ever thought that some day ...

I'd have Orbitron software on my PC ...

A userid to a government www.space-track.org web-site (with restricted access) ...

And be learning how to track satellites ...

Cool ... nice hobby ...


----------



## LameLefty

> 3800 seconds ISP
> 165 mN of thrust


That's the key, friends. That ISP (specific impulse) measure is HUGE. ISP is a rocketry term that can be boiled down to basically fuel efficiency. I'm simplifying GREATLY - here's a link: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/specimp.html

From that link, here is the summary paragraph:



> Why are we interested in specific impulse? First, it gives us a quick way to determine the thrust of a rocket, if we know the weight flow rate through the nozzle. Second, it is an indication of engine efficiency. Two different rocket engines have different values of specific impulse. The engine with the higher value of specific impulse is more efficient because it produces more thrust for the same amount of propellant. Third, it simplifies our mathematical analysis of rocket thermodynamics. The units of specific impulse are the same whether we use English units or metric units. Fourth, it gives us an easy way to "size" an engine during preliminary analysis. The result of our thermodynamic analysis is a certain value of specific impulse. The rocket weight will define the required value of thrust. Dividing the thrust required by the specific impulse will tell us how much weight flow of propellants our engine must produce. This information determines the physical size of the engine.


Typical chemically-fueled rockets have ISPs in the range of 250-ish - 400-ish (for the best LOX/H2 rockets). They have tremendous thrust but use tremendous amounts of fuel over a short period of time. Ion engines (like XIPS) are very fuel efficient and produce a tremendous TOTAL impulse over time, but the time period is very, very long.

The thrust quoted above, 165 milli-Newtons, is TINY. A newton is an SI unit. It means the amount of force necessary to accelerate one kg at a rate of one meter/second^2. A single g (gravity at earth's surface) is 9.8 m/s^2, just as a point of comparison. And this sat is a LOT heavier than a single kilogram.


----------



## Interceptor

donshan said:


> Perhaps you (or anyone else here) can help me understand this a bit more as I am a real beginner on satellite design and operation.


I would have to defer to the real gurus on this, as I too am quite new at this and still learning. My limited knowledge deals with reading the tles for amateur radio reasons, and being kind of a Space Shuttle nut. I am not very familiar with the XIPS system and just incorrectly assumed it produced much more thrust than it really does. Thanks to Lefty for clearing that up.

I still think we are going to see a big change in the next tle, as I think dcben is on to something with his observation above. I ran the tles all the way back to 7/7, and I think he's hit on something, although I surely don't know what specifically.


----------



## dcben

donshan said:


> Perhaps you (or anyone else here) can help me understand this a bit more as I am a real beginner on satellite design and operation. I assume from Boeing's description of the XIPS thrusters at the link below that they will be using ( "are using" ) the two XIPS units for this orbit drift maneuver where normal station keeping uses them 30 minutes per day (quote below). This link gives the thrust of these units and the Boeing D10 spec sheet gives the in " Beginning of life in-orbit mass of 3,700 kg."
> 
> I would guess an orbit change burn would take longer than just station keeping.
> *Is is possible to estimate the XIPS burn time to move D10 the aprox. 100 miles in 3 days? *
> 
> As Lefty posted above these XIPS units are low thrust but can sustain long burn times.
> 
> Link:
> 
> http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/xips/xips.html
> Quote -bold added:


Donshan,

Thanks for that link. I am liking my own theory more and more (and not only because its non-conspiratorial and mine):grin:

If you look at TLEs in general for satellites classed as geostationary, almost without exception the second derivative term is 0. If the XIPS on D10 have been involved in long-duration burns over the last few days, I strongly suspect the term would be non-zero and I bet the Space Command computers are programmed automatically to hold them.

Convinced?

Ben


----------



## donshan

Tom Robertson said:


> The contract for Spaceway 1/2 is likely different in many respects, some we are certain of: 1) Spaceway 1/2 were delivered to DIRECTV in space but D10/11/12 are delivered on the ground; 2) DIRECTV then has language in the D10/D11 contracts for services to be performed in space but that has been redacted from the FCC public form; 3) Spaceway 1/2 were ordered by Hughes not DIRECTV for a different purpose.
> 
> The on the ground delivery was purely an insurance/title of ownership thing. Boeing was still responsible for the in-space testing and warranty of their work. The big question is when does the contract specify Boeing's work is done? After final drift to the orbital slot or before. Both companies perform lots of orbital movements so I can see it either way. My guess is Boeing is responsible for the final parking, but I admit I might be wrong.
> 
> Cheers,
> Tom


Thanks for the clarification. I used to do contract technical work in the energy field and every contract I was involved in had a specific section defining all of the "Deliverables", i.e tests, results, reports, data, etc ) and clearly defined the successful end of any "fixed price" portion. However if Boeing has some "service contract where costs are billed as they are occurred "as needed" with no limits ( which I doubt!) it is ambiguous. I too think Boeing is still responsible until it reaches 102.775 W and running.


----------



## oakwcj

LameLefty said:


> There is a U.S. Space Command press release on their website from a few years ago when they took over the task of publishing TLEs from NASA and it specifically mentions that the site would be run by a contractor. Also, if you do WHOIS search on Space-Track.org, it just leads to a nondescript hosting company somewhere in Scottsdale, as I recall, not a U.S. government agency or .mil domain.


Thanks. That press release is also on the space-track.org site. The service is run by -- get this -- The Aerospace Corporation. You can't make up stuff like this. Their website tells you not much about who they are: http://www.aero.org/corporation/. My brother worked for MITRE [MIT Research], a wholly-owned subsidiary of DOD. This outfit looks like another one.


----------



## oakwcj

Oh, The Aerospace Corporation is located in El Segundo, California. Some other company is also headquartered there. Starts with a "D".


----------



## LMUBill

Sixto said:


> Funny ... who would have ever thought that some day ...
> 
> I'd have Orbitron software on my PC ...
> 
> A userid to a government www.space-track.org web-site (with restricted access) ...
> 
> And be learning how to track satellites ...
> 
> Cool ... nice hobby ...


What's really fun is tracking one that is about to come over your location at a time when it is visible and going outside to look for it, especially when there are Iridium flares involved.  You would be surprised at how many sats are visible to the naked eye.


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> Oh, The Aerospace Corporation is located in El Segundo, California. Some other company is also headquartered there. Starts with a "D".


Want to see how incestuous the aerospace industry is? Remember who DirecTV used to be owned by? Hughes. Who owns Hughes now? Boeing. Boeing is also a partner in SeaLaunch, which has launched previous D* sats and will launch D11.

Oh well, it could be worse - back before the Depression, Boeing used to own United Transport (later United Airlines) and was an owner or part-owner of Hamilton Standard (which made propellers and engine parts) Pratt & Whitney (which made aircraft engines). Talk about corporate integration! :lol:


----------



## VeniceDre

oakwcj said:


> Oh, The Aerospace Corporation is located in El Segundo, California. Some other company is also headquartered there. Starts with a "D".


Practically right next door to each other too, so's Boeing.


----------



## sgibson

LameLefty said:


> Want to see how incestuous the aerospace industry is? Remember who DirecTV used to be owned by? Hughes. Who owns Hughes now? Boeing. Boeing is also a partner in SeaLaunch, which has launched previous D* sats and will launch D11.
> 
> Oh well, it could be worse - back before the Depression, Boeing used to own United Transport (later United Airlines) and was an owner or part-owner of Hamilton Standard (which made propellers and engine parts) Pratt & Whitney (which made aircraft engines). Talk about corporate integration! :lol:


And Boeing built a damn fine "Warbird"- the venerable B-17 Flying Fortress.
Brought many a crew home safe in spite of being shot full of holes, missing rudders,etc. Of course, that was another era. Sorry, back on topic.


----------



## LameLefty

sgibson said:


> And Boeing built a damn fine "Warbird"- the venerable B-17 Flying Fortress.
> Brought many a crew home safe in spite of being shot full of holes, missing rudders,etc. Of course, that was another era. Sorry, back on topic.


That was after they were forced to divest those subsidiaries. But while on that off-topic topic, they also built the B-29, the B-47, the B-52, and a huge fraction of the world's civil airliner fleet, starting before the jet age, then running through the Dash-80 and everything up to the 787. 

(I used to work for them, a lifetime and career-change ago)


----------



## donshan

dcben said:


> Donshan,
> 
> Thanks for that link. I am liking my own theory more and more (and not only because its non-conspiratorial and mine):grin:
> 
> If you look at TLEs in general for satellites classed as geostationary, almost without exception the second derivative term is 0. If the XIPS on D10 have been involved in long-duration burns over the last few days, I strongly suspect the term would be non-zero and I bet the Space Command computers are programmed automatically to hold them.
> 
> Convinced?
> 
> Ben


I don't know enough, but it is a good hypothesis, which then falls into one of my observations that "So many beautiful hypotheses are destroyed later by ugly facts" 
If you are right then then no TLE is good news, not bad news. Eventually a TLE will come out and we will be let in on the answer.


----------



## Newshawk

donshan said:


> If I were D* I would write the contract something like ," fully tested, fully operational and delivered in GSO orbit and stable at the FCC assigned operational position".


I can just hear the contract negotiations for that:"Why, sure, we could do that... but it'd be custom work and we'd have to charge you extra..."


----------



## RAD

LameLefty said:


> That was after they were forced to divest those subsidiaries. But while on that off-topic topic, they also built the B-29, the B-47, the B-52, and a huge fraction of the world's civil airliner fleet, starting before the jet age, then running through the Dash-80 and everything up to the 787.
> 
> (I used to work for them, a lifetime and career-change ago)


Also built a few rockets, like the 1st stage of the Saturn 5 is one of them.


----------



## rock819

TLE TLE TLE TLE lol


----------



## oldfantom

Newshawk said:


> I can just hear the contract negotiations for that:"Why, sure, we could do that... but it'd be custom work and we'd have to charge you extra..."


I just sent this exact email 20 minutes ago.


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Also built a few rockets, like the 1st stage of the Saturn 5 is one of them.


Not only did they build the SIC stage, they also were responsible for integrating the entire vehicle from SIC to the LES rocket atop the capsule, and built the Lunar Rover vehicles used on Apollos 15 - 17.


----------



## Teronzhul

I was surprised today to see ka-lo signals on my accutrac 3 today while doing 2 slimline upgrades. Surprised and excited.


----------



## lwilli201

Teronzhul said:


> I was surprised today to see ka-lo signals on my accutrac 3 today while doing 2 slimline upgrades. Surprised and excited.


Is today the first time you had those readings?


----------



## Teronzhul

Yep. If I had a camera I'd go snap a few shots. 

Signal levels are currently about 1/3-1/2 of the ku and ka-hi bands, but they are there. I checked on 2 slimline installs today, and when I got home verified on my Andrews "sidecar" dish. All of them showed ka-lo.

The only other time I've had a ka-lo signal was on a faulty 3lnb giving me erroneous readings.


----------



## n2deep2bn

Teronzhul said:


> Yep. If I had a camera I'd go snap a few shots.
> 
> Signal levels are currently about 1/3-1/2 of the ku and ka-hi bands, but they are there. I checked on 2 slimline installs today, and when I got home verified on my Andrews "sidecar" dish. All of them showed ka-
> 
> The only other time I've had a ka-lo signal was on a faulty 3lnb giving me erroneous readings.


This is great news. Maybe signal will be higher tomorrow.


----------



## generalpatton78

LameLefty said:


> Want to see how incestuous the aerospace industry is? Remember who DirecTV used to be owned by? Hughes. Who owns Hughes now? Boeing. Boeing is also a partner in SeaLaunch, which has launched previous D* sats and will launch D11.
> 
> Oh well, it could be worse - back before the Depression, Boeing used to own United Transport (later United Airlines) and was an owner or part-owner of Hamilton Standard (which made propellers and engine parts) Pratt & Whitney (which made aircraft engines). Talk about corporate integration! :lol:


Actually News Corp own Hughes and soon Liberty Media will. When News corp sold Directv they actually just sold Hughes.


----------



## LameLefty

generalpatton78 said:


> Actually News Corp own Hughes and soon Liberty Media will. When News corp sold Directv they actually just sold Hughes.


I should've been more precise - Boeing bought _part_ of Hughes. In 2000, to be precise, they bought the satellite business from Hughes.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/business/Boeing_000113.html


----------



## gslater

Well, unless I calculate wrong, I believe the last TLE is now officially three days old. At this rate we could see signals on 103(b) before we get the next position reading. Really frustrating.


----------



## Sixto

With no TLE's in almost 3 days, it must be moving ... interesting that there's enough influence somewhere to keep the TLE's confidential ...


----------



## litzdog911

Sixto said:


> With no TLE's in almost 3 days, it must be moving ... interesting that there's enough influence somewhere to keep the TLE's confidential ...


Seems there should be *more *TLEs *because *it's moving. Unless, like you suggest, there's some desire to keep things confidential.


----------



## bobnielsen

generalpatton78 said:


> Actually News Corp own Hughes and soon Liberty Media will. When News corp sold Directv they actually just sold Hughes.


Hughes was split up and mostly sold off by General Motors. Major portions went to Raytheon and Boeing. Directv and Hughes Network Systems were held by GM and later sold to News Corp. The HNS part was sold to Sky Terra Communications in 2006 and continues under the name Hughes Communications. Liberty is acquiring a controlling interest in Directv, not Hughes. The Hughes name also sitll exists in Hughes Research Laboratories, which is jointly owned by GM and Boeing.

Bob (a Hughes employee--1962-1966, 1968-1994, now retired)


----------



## dbsdave

litzdog911 said:


> Seems there should be *more *TLEs *because *it's moving. Unless, like you suggest, there's some desire to keep things confidential.


Yah, things like that it's not moving! I hope not though


----------



## Teronzhul

Ok, found a camera and snapped some quick pics. Accutrac3 disconnected, showing no readings (6 reads as 0)

Pic 2 is 13v showing ka-ku-ka.

Pic 3 is 18v. 

Prior to today ka-lo has read nothing but 6.0 to 6.9.

Also, 18v22khz reads 20+ (apparently being that 18v22 should be 103/110/119) but I didn't feel like snapping more pics.


----------



## purtman

Teronzhul said:


> Ok, found a camera and snapped some quick pics. Accutrac3 disconnected, showing no readings (6 reads as 0)
> 
> Pic 2 is 13v showing ka-ku-ka.
> 
> Pic 3 is 18v.
> 
> Prior to today ka-lo has read nothing but 6.0 to 6.9.
> 
> Also, 18v22khz reads 20+ (apparently being that 18v22 should be 103/110/119) but I didn't feel like snapping more pics.


How can we tell that you're pointing to 103(b)?


----------



## dbsdave

purtman said:


> How can we tell that you're pointing to 103(b)?


Between all the kakas and kukus, im honestly not sure what anyone is talking about anymore, unless its dog poop and crazy people


----------



## VeniceDre

Teronzhul said:


> Ok, found a camera and snapped some quick pics. Accutrac3 disconnected, showing no readings (6 reads as 0)
> 
> Pic 2 is 13v showing ka-ku-ka.
> 
> Pic 3 is 18v.
> 
> Prior to today ka-lo has read nothing but 6.0 to 6.9.
> 
> Also, 18v22khz reads 20+ (apparently being that 18v22 should be 103/110/119) but I didn't feel like snapping more pics.


At the bottom left of the pics it says [email protected]

Are you looking at 103 or 99?


----------



## purtman

That's what I was wondering.


----------



## n2deep2bn

looks like it is a reading from 99


----------



## cnmsales

Come on Teronzhul its bed time, dont leave us hanging!!!!!!!!!!! LOL


----------



## purtman

The worst part is he's in Florida so he may be asleep already.


----------



## cnmsales

NUUH the green light shows hes still logged in. Give us the goods!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jeremy W

Those images he posted are definitely from 99, backed up by the fact that he wasn't sending the tone. 103 can only be accessed with the tone. Looks like he was confused as to which slot D10 is using.


----------



## bluemoon737

Teronzhul said:


> Ok, found a camera and snapped some quick pics. Accutrac3 disconnected, showing no readings (6 reads as 0)
> 
> Pic 2 is 13v showing ka-ku-ka.
> 
> Pic 3 is 18v.
> 
> Prior to today ka-lo has read nothing but 6.0 to 6.9.
> 
> Also, 18v22khz reads 20+ (apparently being that 18v22 should be 103/110/119) but I didn't feel like snapping more pics.


OK, nobody is going to believe me and I can kick myself for not taking a picture, but I just had a 100 on TP2 for 103(b). I then went to signal meters to see if I could see it on both tuners at the same time and now it's gone. I suppose it could have been a glitch or something but I SWEAR TO GOD there was a 100 on TP2.

Standby folks...I would not be surprised to wake up to new HD tomorrow.


----------



## purtman

Boy, we want to believe you badly!


----------



## cforrest

I have 0 across the board, both tuner 1 & 2!


----------



## bluemoon737

purtman said:


> Boy, we want to believe you badly!


Like I said...I could kick myself for not breaking out the cameraphone. This is on my HR20-100. I've been messing around with this today/tonight as I got a new Integra DTR-8.8 today and am still setting things up including figuring out the best way to the HR20 through it (native, what resolutions, etc) so I figured what the heck...it's past midnight here on the east coast (meaning the magical date of the 12th) so that's why I checked. But now it's gone...like I said, could have been a glitch or something but man I was just about jumping out of the seat!!!


----------



## SParker

cforrest said:


> I have 0 across the board, both tuner 1 & 2!


Me too.. Bring it to life D* bring the wild beast to life! :grin:


----------



## cnmsales

You hsould be kicked for not taking a picture.


----------



## SParker

cnmsales said:


> You hsould be kicked for not taking a picture.


Then people would've said thats Photoshopped!


----------



## cnmsales

LOL true


----------



## generalpatton78

bobnielsen said:


> Hughes was split up and mostly sold off by General Motors. Major portions went to Raytheon and Boeing. Directv and Hughes Network Systems were held by GM and later sold to News Corp. The HNS part was sold to Sky Terra Communications in 2006 and continues under the name Hughes Communications. Liberty is acquiring a controlling interest in Directv, not Hughes. The Hughes name also sitll exists in Hughes Research Laboratories, which is jointly owned by GM and Boeing.
> 
> Bob (a Hughes employee--1962-1966, 1968-1994, now retired)


Basically we are all correct to a point . Pieces were sold and renamed. Boeing bought the sat manufacturing business, News Corp and then Sky Terra bought what became the Sat ISP portion in 06. While News Corp kept Hughes Electronics and then renamed their portion Directv Group. So Liberty *is* buying the Hughes portion of Directv. I mainly had a problem with this



LameLefty said:


> Want to see how incestuous the aerospace industry is? *Remember who DirecTV used to be owned by? Hughes. Who owns Hughes now? Boeing.* Boeing is also a partner in SeaLaunch, which has launched previous D* sats and will launch D11.


News Corp bought what was Hughes Electronics and renamed it Directv Group and that is what Liberty is buying now. Minus what is now the Sat ISP portion sold to sky terra. Hughes Electronics was still Hughes after what became Boeing Satellite Development Center was sold. So in my mind News Corp bought Hughes from GM and is now selling it to Liberty. That portion of Directv makes up 38% of Directv.


----------



## harsh

oakwcj said:


> Oh, The Aerospace Corporation is located in El Segundo, California. Some other company is also headquartered there. Starts with a "D".


El Segundo is also home to Boeing Satellite Systems International.


----------



## donshan

gslater said:


> Well, unless I calculate wrong, I believe the last TLE is now officially three days old. At this rate we could see signals on 103(b) before we get the next position reading. Really frustrating.


Yes, I calculate that the last D10 TLE became 3 days old at 11:10 PM EDT (plus 18.4 sec to be precise).

I see two possibilities:

1) D10 orbit is so unchanged that NORAD does not update it, but this is unlikely.

2) D10 is moving and for reasons unknown the TLE is not being updated so the final orbit maneuvers are kept proprietary.

My Guess: If there is no TLE data published, only the insiders know D10's position and the final orbit dynamics. They can then state they have reached operational position and turn on the HD channels and release the TLE when it computes to 102.7xx W.

Thus Boeing's competition never sees how they did it, and no other experts can calculate just what the performance data of the XIPS system is. Standard Operating Procedure- keep everything proprietary!


----------



## bluemoon737

OK, this time I took out the cameraphone...not easy to see but it is on TP1 with a reading of 69. What I suspect is happening is that as I select the 103(b) satellite, for whatever reason the HR20 is somehow buffering and displaying info from the 103(a) satellite. That's the only thing I can come up with (although I've never come close to a 100 on 103(a) so not sure how to fully explain the previous 100 reading I had on TP2)


----------



## crabtrp

I went up and nudged my dish around a little to point at 102.56, I have been watching my HD's for days, very impressed.


----------



## bluemoon737

bluemoon737 said:


> OK, this time I took out the cameraphone...not easy to see but it is on TP1 with a reading of 69. What I suspect is happening is that as I select the 103(b) satellite, for whatever reason the HR20 is somehow buffering and displaying info from the 103(a) satellite. That's the only thing I can come up with (although I've never come close to a 100 on 103(a) so not sure how to fully explain the previous 100 reading I had on TP2)


Either my HR20 is hosed or they are doing some testing. I have the signal meters on for 103(b) TP1 and just had a 100% flash on tuner 2. Gee...if this keeps up I'm never going to get any sleep tonight (good thing I'm on leave!).


----------



## bluemoon737

crabtrp said:


> I went up and nudged my dish around a little to point at 102.56, I have been watching my HD's for days, very impressed.


LOL!!! :lol:


----------



## EaglePC

Strange 103 (a) was 
1-8 89 45 99 34 89 32
17-24 0
now 9/12 4:15AM
1-8 81 0 95 17 79 7
17-24 0

did my dish go out of line ?


----------



## FlyBono24

I think the new satellite knocked 103a out of orbit.


----------



## Teronzhul

Teronzhul said:


> Also, 18v22khz reads 20+ (apparently being that 18v22 should be 103/110/119) but I didn't feel like snapping more pics.


Yes, I went to sleep. I quoted the above because as several of you have questioned the meter was reading 99/101 in the pics.

18v22khz showed the highest reading of 20+ and 18v22khz is the setting which should return 103/110/119 even. Why the meter is displaying ka-lo for 3 out of 4 possible settings I don't know, but it seemed pointless taking additional pics. Of note, the accutrac3 doesn't positively identify satellites, it just shows raw signal for certain bands.

The whole point was that there is something there, that wasn't there before. I would ignore the significance of the 99/101 on the display.



Jeremy W said:


> Those images he posted are definitely from 99, backed up by the fact that he wasn't sending the tone. 103 can only be accessed with the tone. Looks like he was confused as to which slot D10 is using.


I was not confused in the slightest. I know full well that D10 is going into the 103 orbital slot and D11 is going into 99 eventually. This does not change the fact that 2 days ago there was nothing showing in ka-lo on my meter, and then yesterday there was. Whether that is due to D10 (at 103) is sending signals that are causing the multiswitch to read incorrectly (it is still in testing and I have no idea what is possible on their end) or if my meter coincidentally went nuts at a bad time.

Guys it was late, and unscrewing things by flashlight to snap pics is a pain. Take them with what relevance you deem appropriate. I may snap more if there are changes today.


----------



## jleupen

Teronzhul said:


> Guys it was late, and unscrewing things by flashlight to snap pics is a pain. Take them with what relevance you deem appropriate. I may snap more if there are changes today.


Thanks Teronzhul. Appreciate your efforts to capture/share the info. Let us know if anything changes!!


----------



## dcben

donshan said:


> Yes, I calculate that the last D10 TLE became 3 days old at 11:10 PM EDT (plus 18.4 sec to be precise).
> 
> I see two possibilities:
> 
> 1) D10 orbit is so unchanged that NORAD does not update it, but this is unlikely.
> 
> 2) D10 is moving and for reasons unknown the TLE is not being updated so the final orbit maneuvers are kept proprietary.
> 
> My Guess: If there is no TLE data published, only the insiders know D10's position and the final orbit dynamics. They can then state they have reached operational position and turn on the HD channels and release the TLE when it computes to 102.7xx W.
> 
> Thus Boeing's competition never sees how they did it, and no other experts can calculate just what the performance data of the XIPS system is. Standard Operating Procedure- keep everything proprietary!


Not to beat a dead horse :beatdeadhorse:

But as a slight change to possibility 2: *2) D10 is moving and for reasons unknown the TLE is not being updated so the final orbit maneuvers are kept proprietary.
*

What I'm suggesting is simply that the Space Command Computers may automatically withhold TLEs when they detect acceleration in the mean orbital motion (would happen during a low thrust, long duration burn). All the geostationary TLEs released have 0.0000 as the value for this parameter. The reason is that such a TLE would not produce reliable extrapolations in mapping software (the parameters are instantaneously out of date).

Once the thrusters on D10 stop long enough for NORAD to get a consistent fix, the TLEs will be posted. No secret deals with Boeing or D* and the GOVERNMENT required.

Ben

If anyone can find a non-zero 2nd derivative element TLE for a geosat, I'll stand corrected.


----------



## swans

dcben said:


> Not to beat a dead horse :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> But as a slight change to possibility 2: *2) D10 is moving and for reasons unknown the TLE is not being updated so the final orbit maneuvers are kept proprietary.
> *
> 
> What I'm suggesting is simply that the Space Command Computers may automatically withhold TLEs when they detect acceleration in the mean orbital motion (would happen during a low thrust, long duration burn). All the geostationary TLEs released have 0.0000 as the value for this parameter. The reason is that such a TLE would not produce reliable extrapolations in mapping software (the parameters are instantaneously out of date).
> 
> Once the thrusters on D10 stop long enough for NORAD to get a consistent fix, the TLEs will be posted. No secret deals with Boeing or D* and the GOVERNMENT required.
> 
> Ben
> 
> If anyone can find a non-zero 2nd derivative element TLE for a geosat, I'll stand corrected.


I thought the current theory was that the thrust was only used to raise the orbit of the satellite and the greater orbit allowed the move to the west. The orbit would be raised so that 90 miles would be covered in 3 days. Thrust would then be used again to lower the orbit of the sat back to geosynch.

I'd be more inclined to believe they just don't want to publish the data related to the move.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Ok how do I check my transponder readings on the hr20. I tried last night but couldn't figure it out. (now back to topic)


----------



## dcben

swans said:


> I thought the current theory was that the thrust was only used to raise the orbit of the satellite and the greater orbit allowed the move to the west. The orbit would be raised so that 90 miles would be covered in 3 days. Thrust would then be used again to lower the orbit of the sat back to geosynch.
> 
> I'd be more inclined to believe they just don't want to publish the data related to the move.


Of course you are correct that the drift west comes about just as you say. But what we found out yesterday is that the small thrusters on the new Boeing sat are very fuel efficient, but low thrust and that to accomplish an orbit reposition they would have to burn for very long periods (unlike higher thrust chemical thrusters that would work just as you say -- short burst to new orbit, second short burst back to gs).

We (or I should say I) am not smart enough to calculate the burn duration of that would be required to execute a .2 deg shift in 3 days, but if that's a minimum (or minimum reasonable fuel efficient time), the thrusters may have to burn almost continuously. At least that's my conjecture.

Ben


----------



## Ed Campbell

MIAMI1683 said:


> Ok how do I check my transponder readings on the hr20. I tried last night but couldn't figure it out. (now back to topic)


Might miss a step or two; but, the general direction is -

Menu > settings > sat and antenna settings > signal strength > do your plusses to get to 103(b)


----------



## donshan

dcben said:


> Not to beat a dead horse :beatdeadhorse:
> 
> But as a slight change to possibility 2: *2) D10 is moving and for reasons unknown the TLE is not being updated so the final orbit maneuvers are kept proprietary.
> *
> 
> What I'm suggesting is simply that the Space Command Computers may automatically withhold TLEs when they detect acceleration in the mean orbital motion (would happen during a low thrust, long duration burn). All the geostationary TLEs released have 0.0000 as the value for this parameter. The reason is that such a TLE would not produce reliable extrapolations in mapping software (the parameters are instantaneously out of date).
> 
> Once the thrusters on D10 stop long enough for NORAD to get a consistent fix, the TLEs will be posted. No secret deals with Boeing or D* and the GOVERNMENT required.
> 
> Ben
> 
> If anyone can find a non-zero 2nd derivative element TLE for a geosat, I'll stand corrected.


I looked at a number of TLEs in non-geostationary satellites from other lists on Cesestrak, and you are correctt that EVERY satellite of any type has a zero value of the 2nd derivative term in the TLE:

http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/

Like others posting here I am trying to understand how TLEs are used, so I will share what I learned about info on both the 1st and 2nd dervivative values in the TLE. * It seems to me that this 2nd derivative term won't tell us anything about D10. 
*
According to Cesestrak, the 2nd derivative term is an obsolete value no longer used in current models (quote below). This page discusses all the terms in the TLE.

http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/#FAQ01



> Field 1.9 represents the first derivative of the mean motion divided by two, in units of revolutions per day2, and field 1.10 represents the second derivative of the mean motion divided by six, in units of revolutions per day3. Together, these two fields give a second-order picture of how the mean motion is changing with time. However, these two fields are not used by the SGP4/SDP4 orbital models (only by the simpler SGP model) and, therefore, serve no real purpose.


To quote a second source- NASA.

The NASA site define TLEs indicates this 2nd derivative term is "usually blank" and this term is used "to model terminal orbital decay", which suggests that for operating satellites they just put a zero in this 2nd derivative value and don't measure anything.

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/realdata/sightings/SSapplications/Post/JavaSSOP/SSOP_Help/tle_def.html



> Second Derivative of Mean Motion
> 
> (00000-0 = 0.00000) The second derivative of mean motion is a second order drag term in the SGP4 predictor used to model terminal orbit decay. It measures the second time derivative in daily mean motion, divided by 6. Units are revs/day^3. A leading decimal must be applied to this value. The last two characters define an applicable power of 10. (12345-5 = 0.0000012345).


( Note the NASA TLE definitions misuse the the words "Julian day fraction" when epoch day fraction is correct. Julian Days are an astonomical term and change day number at 12:00 UT whereas "epoch day as used in the TLE changes day number at 00:00:00 UT):

We are still waiting for an updated TLE and, even though XIPS burns are long, we are now approaching day four with no TLE update. I doubt the XIPS burn would need to be this long.

So my guess is that things are happening, but we won't know the answer to this until a new TLE is released and see what it shows. However , I am hoping to be watching the new HD channels and not care very much about TLEs until D11!


----------



## LameLefty

> We (or I should say I) am not smart enough to calculate the burn duration of that would be required to execute a .2 deg shift in 3 days,


Keeping this thread on a somewhat-technical basis . . .

The way basic orbital mechanics is taught in undergraduate engineering and physics classes, you assume a fixed satellite mass and a fixed orbit as initial conditions. You also assume a fixed, instantaneous delta-v (velocity change) and then calculate the new orbit. You can do this kind of rough estimate with just a few (relatively) simple equations which derive from Newton's laws of motion.

HOWEVER . . . the delta-v is never instant, and the satellite mass is never constant while fuel is being consumed. Therefore, after you've learned the basics, you use various iterative (step-by-step) methods to break the duration of the burn down into discrete slices - e.g., a ten minute burn might be broken down into 600 slices, one per second. For each tiny slice, you use the known spacecraft mass and thrust of the engine, combined with the known fuel usage rate of the engine. So if the rocket produces 1,000 lbs of force but uses, say, a 1 lbs. of fuel per second, you figure what would happen as the thrust stays constant but mass goes down, for each individual step in the process. That will give you a MUCH more accurate prediction of the actual final trajectory of the spacecraft. The finer the steps (the more time-slices you use), the more precise and accurate you will be. True closed-loop guidance systems don't just use predicted satellite masses and thrust and fuel use, but actually measure those in real-time and feed the results back into the calculations so that after a burn is complete, there's already a very accurate estimate of the final trajectory. This is then combined with outside data (star tracking, GPS, radar tracking, etc) to make the final, very accurate determination of orbit and position.

We know return you to your regularly-scheduled anticipation and anxiety . . .


----------



## gvatty

What does this mean for the d10

1 31862U 07032A 07252.13215799 -.00000124 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00774
2 31862 000.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 014.8965 01.00271734000650

Last time retrieved: September 12 2007 14:00 UTC

link http://www.n2yo.com/satellite.php?s=31862


----------



## syphix

That they're three days late...that's an old TLE.


----------



## LameLefty

> 1 31862U 07032A *07252.13215799* -.00000124 +00000-0 +10000-3 0 00774
> 2 31862 000.0779 296.4012 0000289 341.5073 014.8965 01.00271734000650


That's a Julian date - it's three days old now, as Nathan pointed out. Just keep reading this thread. The moment new ones are posted (or new HD channels light up!) you'll see it.


----------



## gvatty

LameLefty said:


> That's a Julian date - it's three days old now, as Nathan pointed out. Just keep reading this thread. The moment new ones are posted (or new HD channels light up!) you'll see it.


Thank you both


----------



## Sixto

DIRECTV To Present at the Merrill Lynch Media & Entertainment Conference (on Mon)

DIRECTV To Present at the Goldman Sachs Communacopia XVI Conference (on Tue)

Lots of news coming ...


----------



## purtman

For reference on future releases, do you think you techies could pull out the info on reading TLEs and just post them as a sticky? I don't know if there's another spot on this site to keep these. It's good reference material and rather than have to repeat this over and over, it would be a nice-to-have when D11 goes up.


----------



## saxon2000

I know that you guys don't find N2YO.COM reliable, but I am wondering why after weeks of showing D10 at 102.56 suddenly today it shows at 102.57.
Why the change?


----------



## syphix

They (n2yo.com) got the most recent TLE...which is still three days old.


----------



## noneroy

Sixto said:


> DIRECTV To Present at the Merrill Lynch Media & Entertainment Conference (on Mon)
> 
> DIRECTV To Present at the Goldman Sachs Communacopia XVI Conference (on Tue)
> 
> Lots of news coming ...


Gee, wouldn't it be neat if they had some sort of thing to show off to these investors, like, i dunno a few new HD channels rolled out to show that their satellite is working just fine? Something about investor confidence?

The anticipation thread has mentioned that there are some changes happening to the online program guide right now where as HBOHD and ShowHD are no longer show up in the 70s....(to maybe make room for the new non-simulcast HD channels?)

How confident are we that it would take 3 days to drift? 3 days with no TLEs......hand over reportedly taking place today.....

If they could test while they were moving it, couldn't that mean they have a handful of channels ready to go today? Anyone know what types of dishes DirecTV uses to track their satellites? (I'm assuming it's not an AU9  )


----------



## LameLefty

saxon2000 said:


> I know that you guys don't find N2YO.COM reliable, but I am wondering why after weeks of showing D10 at 102.56 suddenly today it shows at 102.57.
> Why the change?


Because the data, even though it's three days old, still has a slight inclination and eccentricity to it. That means that it's not absolutely, 100% totally circular and equatorial. Therefore, the sat will movie ever so slightly. 0.01 degree is roughly 4.5 miles or so for GSOs - insignificant really.

Besides, as we keep pointing out - the data being used is three days old. If the move has really happened without TLEs being published, it's entirely obsolete.


----------



## gslater

saxon2000 said:


> I know that you guys don't find N2YO.COM reliable, but I am wondering why after weeks of showing D10 at 102.56 suddenly today it shows at 102.57.
> Why the change?


I've seen this too and my guess is that it's partly rounding and partly because orbits are not truly circular so D10 is drifting slightly forward and then back again at various points in it's orbit and if you check it at the right time, it can fluctuate.


----------



## LameLefty

noneroy said:


> If they could test while they were moving it, couldn't that mean they have a handful of channels ready to go today? Anyone know what types of dishes DirecTV uses to track their satellites? (I'm assuming it's not an AU9  )


It might not be much bigger than that to receive telemetry and tracking info from the satellite. They might also have their own optical tracking (telescopes slaved to very accurate azimuth and altitude sensors on the mount) from which they can extrapolate position and orbit. But I'd say they DON'T have their own deep-space radars - that stuff is way too expensive (and FCC-restricted!) for private companies, I would say.


----------



## dogs31

LameLefty said:


> It might not be much bigger than that to receive telemetry and tracking info from the satellite. They might also have their own optical tracking (telescopes slaved to very accurate azimuth and altitude sensors on the mount) from which they can extrapolate position and orbit. But I'd say they DON'T have their own deep-space radars - that stuff is way too expensive (and FCC-restricted!) for private companies, I would say.


LameLefty, Is that satellite parked yet?


----------



## smiddy

I just looked at 103(b) with my H20 and I am getting beeps on each of the transponders, nothing on the signal meter however. My HR20 gets nothing at all on either tuner...but alas I'll keep checking. :maniacal-laughter:


----------



## LameLefty

dogs31 said:


> LameLefty, Is that satellite parked yet?


No way to tell - TLEs are like 3 and a half days old, and no new HD channels on TV yet. Once we get one or the other, we'll be able to answer definitively.


----------



## dogs31

LameLefty said:


> No way to tell - TLEs are like 3 and a half days old, and no new HD channels on TV yet. Once we get one or the other, we'll be able to answer definitively.


I think it is at the destined location and they are not telling us.


----------



## SteveEJ

OK..Rookie here:
I have observed this today: When looking at satellite 103(b) transponder strength the updates are now 1-2 seconds apart where yesterday they were 5-7 seconds apart. It's like it see's the bird and the transponders are turned off. Prior to today the updates between the transponder strengths took 5-7 seconds..
Does this mean that the receiver is seeing the bird but it is not transmitting yet?

Rook in FL


----------



## LameLefty

dogs31 said:


> I think it is at the destined location and they are not telling us.


Which again raises the question: why has Space Command issued updated TLEs for just about every satellite in the DirecTV fleet except this one? Inquiring minds truly, honestly want to know.


----------



## cnmsales

Lamelefty, so has it ever happened before that TLE's were withheld?


----------



## Ken984

SteveEJ said:


> OK..Rookie here:
> I have observed this today: When looking at satellite 103(b) transponder strength the updates are now 1-2 seconds apart where yesterday they were 5-7 seconds apart. It's like it see's the bird and the transponders are turned off. Prior to today the updates between the transponder strengths took 5-7 seconds..
> Does this mean that the receiver is seeing the bird but it is not transmitting yet?
> 
> Rook in FL


I think its the other way around, when it takes a while it is seeing something, when it just pops 0's across the board there isn't anything there.


----------



## Sirshagg

LameLefty said:


> Which again raises the question: why has Space Command issued updated TLEs for just about every satellite in the DirecTV fleet except this one? Inquiring minds truly, honestly want to know.


The guy responsible for publishing updates lurks here and is getting a kick out of messing with us.


----------



## dogs31

Ken984 said:


> I think its the other way around, when it takes a while it is seeing something, when it just pops 0's across the board there isn't anything there.


Is anyone seeing any HD channels on their receivers yet? Besides the ones like HDNet?


----------



## markrubi

NO


----------



## donshan

LameLefty said:


> That's a Julian date - it's three days old now, as Nathan pointed out. Just keep reading this thread. The moment new ones are posted (or new HD channels light up!) you'll see it.


A comment on Julian day terminology that caused me much confusion since Julian days are not used in the TLE. That term is not a Julian date, but an epoch date. The difference is that in astronomy Julian days have been a date convention used for centuries and the day number changes at 12:00:00 UT (noon) whereas in space flight the day number changes at 00:00:00 UT (Midnight).

I sent an email to Dr. TS Kelso at Celestrak about this and got a nice answer this morning:



> Don,
> 
> Unfortunately, the NASA documentation you cite has several errors in it. The epoch in a NORAD TLE is the year and day of the year. Using the term 'Julian Date' is a misnomer and should not be applied here. In addition, the day of the year is referenced to Day 0, which is not January 1 but is December 31 of the previous year. Therefore, 07001.00000000 is 2007 January 1 at 00:00:00 UTC. If you need more information on the TLE format, you should reference the FAQ I have on it on CelesTrak at http://celestrak.com/columns/v04n03/. I hope that answers your questions. - TS
> Dr. T.S. Kelso
> CelesTrak, http://celestrak.com


----------



## SteveEJ

Ken984 said:


> I think its the other way around, when it takes a while it is seeing something, when it just pops 0's across the board there isn't anything there.


Umm.. Then why the change?  Guess well see soon enough..


----------



## smiddy

SteveEJ said:


> Umm.. Then why the change?  Guess well see soon enough..


No, no, no, *NOT* soon enough. I want my HD! <-- Reminds me of the guy who road around on a bicycle wanting his $2.00. :hurah:


----------



## smiddy

278 back up now...


----------



## smiddy

markrubi said:


> discovery back on


You're fast!


----------



## Drako60

No, channels yet, but I'm getting beeps on my H20 signal meter, and Discovery SD is offline making everyone speculate whats going on, atleast in the speculation thread.

Like SteveEJ, on my HR20 the transporder response was extremely delayed, just to get a 0 on all of them, sometimes 30 seconds delayed, now its down to just a few seconds.

As i write this Discovery has come back and it looks like they are boardcasting in LB 4:3, i don't watch Discovery enough to know if this is normal or not.


----------



## VeniceDre

Remember this is the tech thread you're posting in guys... There's that other anticipation thread going.


----------



## dogs31

Drako60 said:


> No, channels yet, but I'm getting beeps on my H20 signal meter, and Discovery SD is offline making everyone speculate whats going on, atleast in the speculation thread.
> 
> Like SteveEJ, on my HR20 the transporder response was extremely delayed, just to get a 0 on all of them, sometimes 30 seconds delayed, now its down to just a few seconds.
> 
> As i write this Discovery has come back and it looks like they are boardcasting in LB 4:3, i don't watch Discovery enough to know if this is normal or not.


I guess that's Discovery HD? Is it pillar on the sides? Or is it like DVD?


----------



## SteveEJ

Drako60 said:


> No, channels yet, but I'm getting beeps on my H20 signal meter, and Discovery SD is offline making everyone speculate whats going on, atleast in the speculation thread.
> 
> Like SteveEJ, on my HR20 the transporder response was extremely delayed, just to get a 0 on all of them, sometimes 30 seconds delayed, now its down to just a few seconds.
> 
> As i write this Discovery has come back and it looks like they are boardcasting in LB 4:3, i don't watch Discovery enough to know if this is normal or not.


It's not true LB.. Look at the logo in the bottom right.. Earth is below the picture line..

SteveEJ


----------



## oakwcj

LameLefty said:


> Which again raises the question: why has Space Command issued updated TLEs for just about every satellite in the DirecTV fleet except this one? Inquiring minds truly, honestly want to know.


Why not send an email to your friends at [email protected] and ask? I'm sure that the Aerospace Corporation has nothing to hide.


----------



## oakwcj

I did send that email. 10 minutes later:

DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A 07255.37397566 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 777
2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451 698


----------



## loudo

Drako60 said:


> No, channels yet, but I'm getting beeps on my H20 signal meter, and Discovery SD is offline making everyone speculate whats going on, atleast in the speculation thread.


What model H20 do you have? I have a H20-100 and it doesn't beep when a signal is detected.


----------



## BudShark

ooooh ooooh ooooh... a TLE a TLE.

(Not that I know what to do with it except stare at it until someone with less ignorance plugs it in and puts it out in readable fashion)


----------



## oakwcj

It's there:

1DIRECTV 10
Lon	102.7953° W
Lat	0.0172° S
Alt (km)	35 796.080
Azm	150.0°
Elv	41.7°
RA	09h 14m 27s
Decl	-5° 55' 43"
Range (km)	37 657.522
RRt (km/s)	0.000
Vel (km/s)	3.074
Direction	Descending
Eclipse	No
MA (phase)	115.9° (82)
TA	115.9°
Orbit #	69
Mag (illum)	? (9%)
Constellation	Hya
2Sun
Azm	110.7°
Elv	30.7°
RA	11h 21m 26s
Decl	4° 09' 40"
Lon	68.4603° W
Lat	4.1435° N
Range (km)	150 560 326
Constellation	Leo
3Moon
Azm	108.5°
Elv	16.8°
RA	12h 08m 04s
Decl	-3° 36' 44"
Lon	57.4181° W
Lat	3.0759° S
Range (km)	399 673
Illum	1%
Phase	New moon
Constellation	Vir


----------



## oakwcj

Name	DIRECTV 10
NORAD #	31862
COSPAR designator	2007-032-A 
Epoch (UTC)	09-12-2007 08:58:31
Orbit # at Epoch	69
Inclination	0.075
RA of A. Node	311.408
Eccentricity	0.0000944
Argument of Perigee	68.691
Revs per day	1.00242451
Period	23h 56m 31s (1436.52 min)
Semi-major axis	42 173 km
Perigee x Apogee	35 791 x 35 799 km
BStar (drag term)	0.000100000 1/ER
Mean anomaly	2.754
Propagation model	SDP4
Element number / age	77 / 0 day(s)
StdMag (MaxMag) / RCS	N/A
Diameters	N/A
Satellite group	Geostationary


----------



## LameLefty

oakwcj said:


> I did send that email. 10 minutes later:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07255.37397566 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 777
> 2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451 698


Sneaky SOBs moved and parked while we were "blind," just as we've been suspecting! I get the same 102.79W location, just as a confirmation.


----------



## nocaster

oakwcj said:


> I did send that email. 10 minutes later:
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A 07255.37397566 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 777
> 2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451 698


Ask and ye shall recieve?


----------



## Tbettini

now turn it on!!!!


----------



## oldfantom

WHOOP!


----------



## BudShark

Good job guys! Sorry to see your hobby will be a little quieter until EOY when D11 goes up. Thanks for the education.

Chris


----------



## dgsiiinc

Sneaky, sneaky. Thanks for the great news!


----------



## Herdfan

Why is it at 102.8?


----------



## RoundRockJohn

Herdfan said:


> Why is it at 102.8?


I wonder if they decided the original slot was better? Anyway, somebody call EaglePC and make sure he didn't stroke out.


----------



## SteveEJ

So.. Does this mean that the quicker updates on 103(b) means the receivers are seeing it but the transponders are not yet turned on?

SteveEJ


----------



## oldfantom

102.8 was the original live position. they filed for temp permission to 102.775. The perm permission to 102.775 is pending.


----------



## Canis Lupus

So it's IN place at 102.8? Can't keep up with the threads the posting is so fast.


----------



## tunce

RoundRockJohn said:


> I wonder if they decided the original slot was better? Anyway, somebody call EaglePC and make sure he didn't stroke out.


That might be a good idea he might be speechless (or typeless).


----------



## Drako60

loudo said:


> What model H20 do you have? I have a H20-100 and it doesn't beep when a signal is detected.


I also have an H20-100, If i recall there is a way to disable the audio, but mine does beep, the speed of the beep says how strong the signal is, thats only on the meter though if your looking at just the signal strenght (all transponders) then it doesn't beep.


----------



## purtman

102.775, not 102.755 ...


----------



## Sirshagg

RoundRockJohn said:


> I wonder if they decided the original slot was better? Anyway, somebody call EaglePC and make sure he didn't stroke out.


----------



## oakwcj

It's a tiny bit too far west. The orbit is a few km too high. I'm sure that it will be tweaked into final position soon. It's very close.


----------



## Herdfan

oldfantom said:


> 102.8 was the original live position. they filed for temp permission to 102.755. The perm permission to 102.755 is pending.


And they got temp permission.


----------



## spoonman

RoundRockJohn said:


> I wonder if they decided the original slot was better? Anyway, somebody call EaglePC and make sure he didn't stroke out.


:hurah:


----------



## dogs31

oakwcj said:


> It's there:
> 
> 1DIRECTV 10
> Lon	102.7953° W
> Lat	0.0172° S
> Alt (km)	35 796.080
> Azm	150.0°
> Elv	41.7°
> RA	09h 14m 27s
> Decl	-5° 55' 43"
> Range (km)	37 657.522
> RRt (km/s)	0.000
> Vel (km/s)	3.074
> Direction	Descending
> Eclipse	No
> MA (phase)	115.9° (82)
> TA	115.9°
> Orbit #	69
> Mag (illum)	? (9%)
> Constellation	Hya
> 2Sun
> Azm	110.7°
> Elv	30.7°
> RA	11h 21m 26s
> Decl	4° 09' 40"
> Lon	68.4603° W
> Lat	4.1435° N
> Range (km)	150 560 326
> Constellation	Leo
> 3Moon
> Azm	108.5°
> Elv	16.8°
> RA	12h 08m 04s
> Decl	-3° 36' 44"
> Lon	57.4181° W
> Lat	3.0759° S
> Range (km)	399 673
> Illum	1%
> Phase	New moon
> Constellation	Vir


To quote someone with the last name of Powers: YEAH BABY YEAH!!!!!!!


----------



## purtman

oakwcj said:


> It's a tiny bit too far west. The orbit is a few km too high. I'm sure that it will be tweaked into final position soon. It's very close.


It could already be there. Remember that this isn't live.


----------



## oldfantom

Herdfan said:


> And they got temp permission.


The way I read it, the temp permission expires. But Lefty indicates it is still on the move.


----------



## oakwcj

oldfantom said:


> The way I read it, the temp permission expires. But Lefty indicates it is still on the move.


The permission is for 60 days. By that time, the FCC will presumably have issued permanent authorization.


----------



## oldfantom

What time is .37397566?


----------



## Baldmaga

Aww man, all this excitement and I have classes all day long.


----------



## SParker

This is like watching paint dry but its still dammed exciting!


----------



## LameLefty

oldfantom said:


> The way I read it, the temp permission expires. But Lefty indicates it is still on the move.


I wasn't first to post the TLE. But I do confirm it's right around 102.79W. Eccentricity is up from previous elsets but that will be tweaked down soon (if it hasn't been already since this set was generated).

D10 appears to be home (or at least at the neighbor's house  )


----------



## gslater

oldfantom said:


> What time is .37397566?


A little more than a third of a day and it changes at 8pm Eastern so I'd say it's right around 4:30 this morning eastern.


----------



## moonman

Directv 10
1 31862u 07032a 07255.37397566 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 777
2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451


----------



## TimGoodwin

SParker said:


> This is like watching paint dry but its still dammed exciting!


It is kinda funny though. If you think about it how many of these new channels will we really watch??


----------



## LameLefty

gslater said:


> A little more than a third of a day and it changes at 8pm Eastern so I'd say it's right around 4:30 this morning eastern.


4:58 a.m. Eastern, I think.

(Sorry, my original post was my local - Central - time)


----------



## Tbettini

QVC HD?


----------



## LameLefty

moonman said:


> Directv 10
> 1 31862u 07032a 07255.37397566 -.00000107 00000-0 10000-3 0 777
> 2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451


New TLEs already posted, computed and talked about.


----------



## dbsdave

TimGoodwin said:


> It is kinda funny though. If you think about it how many of these new channels will we really watch??


I watch cnn all day during work, and they have directv. Of course lets hope they upgrade all of their atlanta studios soon.


----------



## DMRI2006

Sorry to be a newbie but what transponder strengths would indicate things MIGHT be ready to go? I just ran through my signal meters again


----------



## SParker

Well I have to jump into the shower so I expect this thing to be lit up by the time I'm back!


----------



## LameLefty

DMRI2006 said:


> Sorry to be a newbie but what transponder strengths would indicate things MIGHT be ready to go? I just ran through my signal meters again


Anything on 103(b) - NOT 103(a). Post screen pics if you've got 'em.


----------



## russelle777

RoundRockJohn said:


> I wonder if they decided the original slot was better? Anyway, somebody call EaglePC and make sure he didn't stroke out.


He was up posting and watching all night, so he might not wake up till its lit up

:hurah: :lol:


----------



## moonman

LameLefty said:


> New TLEs already posted, computed and talked about.


Sigh.....with that many eye's on it, I should have know better!:grin:


----------



## ToddD

dbsdave said:


> I watch cnn all day during work, and they have directv. Of course lets hope they upgrade all of their atlanta studios soon.


It's already done!


----------



## pg2724

DIRECTV is scheduled to begin its High-Definition channel expansion on September 19, according to what appears to be an internal company document posted at the web site, SatelliteGuys.US.

Scott Greczkowski, who runs the web site, says the document was posted anonymously by a member of the site's Readers Forum. 

While the document's validity has not been confirmed, Greczkowski says DIRECTV's attorneys have asked him to remove it.

DIRECTV is scheduled to expand its high-def lineup from 10 channels to 70 channels by month's end. 

Eric Shanks, DIRECTV's executive vice president of entertainment, told TVPredictions.com on August 28 that the expansion would be "real close" to September 16 when the satcaster will hold a Hollywood party on the night of the 2007 Emmy Awards.

Dated September 6, 2007, the document posted at SatelliteGuys features a page under the header, "DIRECTV HD Extra Pack," which describes new programming packages for the high-def channels.

The page states: "New satellite launch (September 19)."


----------



## LameLefty

moonman said:


> Sigh.....with that many eye's on it, I should have know better!:grin:


Yeah, no kidding. I missed the update by about three minutes. :lol: Well, THAT elset is from about 4:00 central time, so it's already 8 hours old. Go figure.


----------



## jimmyv2000

i'm checking my 103B signal strengths like every ½ hour now:hurah:


----------



## LameLefty

pg2724 said:


> DIRECTV is scheduled to begin its High-Definition channel expansion on September 19, according to what appears to be an internal company document posted at the web site, SatelliteGuys.US.


Welcome to DBSTalk!

Sorry, that's old news here.  It's also not Tech Talk for the sat, it's HD Anticipation which is another (also stickied) thread.


----------



## DMRI2006

LameLefty said:


> Anything on 103(b) - NOT 103(a). Post screen pics if you've got 'em.


Gotcha. Nothing yet, but I will keep my eye out...this is one of the problems from working from home. On a day like this little gets done!! lol 

BTW what's on 103(a)? I have a whole variety of readings from the 80s to 0...is this used for local/spotbeam transmissions and is it normal?


----------



## ivoaraujo

My finger is hurting from pressing F5.
No signal yet.
Lefty, do you think we will have channels today?


----------



## TimGoodwin

DMRI2006 said:


> Gotcha. Nothing yet, but I will keep my eye out...this is one of the problems from working from home. On a day like this little gets done!! lol
> 
> BTW what's on 103(a)? I have a whole variety of readings from the 80s to 0...is this used for local/spotbeam transmissions and is it normal?


Yes it's normal. Some may be close to you and some may not.


----------



## loudo




----------



## Sixto

celetrak and space-track both still show old TLE.

How are newer TLE's found?

Also, since it's at 102.79 instead of 102.775, guess it still has some movement required (which may have already occurred since the TLE).


----------



## chopperjc

loudo said:


>


Nice!


----------



## Spike

pg2724 said:


> DIRECTV is scheduled to begin its High-Definition channel expansion on September 19, according to what appears to be an internal company document posted at the web site, SatelliteGuys.US.
> 
> Scott Greczkowski, who runs the web site, says the document was posted anonymously by a member of the site's Readers Forum.
> 
> While the document's validity has not been confirmed, Greczkowski says DIRECTV's attorneys have asked him to remove it.
> 
> DIRECTV is scheduled to expand its high-def lineup from 10 channels to 70 channels by month's end.
> 
> Eric Shanks, DIRECTV's executive vice president of entertainment, told TVPredictions.com on August 28 that the expansion would be "real close" to September 16 when the satcaster will hold a Hollywood party on the night of the 2007 Emmy Awards.
> 
> Dated September 6, 2007, the document posted at SatelliteGuys features a page under the header, "DIRECTV HD Extra Pack," which describes new programming packages for the high-def channels.
> 
> The page states: "New satellite launch (September 19)."


SatelliteGuys? :nono: Who are they? This is the site where the DirecTV action is. :lol: The people at SatelliteGuys are always OLD News, as compared to the up to date info the guys at this site have on this!

Come on DirecTV. Light em up!


----------



## Steve Robertson

russelle777 said:


> He was up posting and watching all night, so he might not wake up till its lit up
> 
> :hurah: :lol:


Just imagine if he missed it because he was sleeping.


----------



## Spike

Steve Robertson said:


> Just imagine if he missed it because he was sleeping.


*Snickers* Irony at it's best!

:lol:


----------



## Spike

97 on 103 b


----------



## BudShark

Spike said:


> 97 on 103 b


Seriously?


----------



## Spike

Hey Guys
LOOK.. It is there


----------



## Sirshagg

Spike said:


> 97 on 103 b


PICS?


----------



## Spike

I'll take a pic


----------



## GeorgeLV

77 on 103b transponder 11!


----------



## MikeR7

Sirshagg said:


> PICS?


I think he is pulling our chain.:nono2:


----------



## Michael D'Angelo

Transponder 11 on 103b I have a 95 signal.


----------



## oakwcj

LameLefty said:


> Yeah, no kidding. I missed the update by about three minutes. :lol: Well, THAT elset is from about 4:00 central time, so it's already 8 hours old. Go figure.


My prize for being first is a genuine Xenon ion necklace. It's quite inert and glows in the dark.


----------



## Interceptor

OMG! My BFF D10!


----------



## Herdfan

MikeR7 said:


> I think he is pulling our chain.:nono2:


Nope. Got a 98 on 11 as well. 

I now know I pointed that sucker pretty darn well to boot.

I knew something had changed when the receiver acted like it was searching instead of just filling in quickly with zeros.


----------



## MikeR7

OK, Mike, I trust you man! Whooooooweeee!


----------



## BudShark

I'm going to have to get really sick right now... or at least thats my excuse to leave work!


----------



## jimmyv2000

Spike said:


> 97 on 103 b


TRANSPONDER 11 (97)


----------



## CoachGibbs

I have a 46 on that same transponder. Hopefully it gets better than that.


----------



## VeniceDre

Herdfan said:


> Nope. Got a 98 on 11 as well.
> 
> I now know I pointed that sucker pretty darn well to boot.


91 for me on 11.


----------



## nocaster

I guess I better dig out those BBC's that are in a drawer "somewhere" in the house.


----------



## cdizzy

MikeR7 said:


> I think he is pulling our chain.:nono2:


Nope, I have 82 on transponder 11.


----------



## MikeR7

OK, check some of the channels, this is not fair, I was just home for lunch and saw nothing, should have stayed there.


----------



## Sixto

76 on TP11 103(b).


----------



## Captaintrips420

i am getting a reading of 78 on transponder 11 on tuner 2.
i am getting a reading of 79 on transponder 11 on tuner 1.

this is sat 103(b) and i am giving it time to fully refresh so that it doesn not have any old numbers.


----------



## gopokes

Got all zero's except for one of the transponders is showing an 83 on the 103(b). I am in Tulsa Oklahoma.


----------



## fleadog99

95 on 11 103(b)


----------



## RAD

103(b) TP 11 = 96.


----------



## bscott

...and channel 499?


----------



## djfrankie

It's Like Christmas, like someone posted earlier. this is fun, watching the threads and waiting for the HD Channels to be turned on.


----------



## jimmyv2000

CoachGibbs said:


> I have a 46 on that same transponder. Hopefully it gets better than that.


Hmmmmmmmm Gibbs check it again i'm salem and now its at 98


----------



## markymouse

98 on #11 - 103b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jrodfoo

yeah, what's going on with channel 499 now!?


----------



## BobbyK

98 0n tp11


----------



## LameLefty

How 'bout that Ch.499 test?!?!


----------



## fleadog99

someone at d* is prob. messing with us:

Hey lets turn transponders off andon and watch them all freak out.... :lol: :lol:


----------



## MikeR7

MikeR7 said:


> how bout some pics guys, so I can cream my keyboard?


Oh, I'd better close my office door first.:lol:


----------



## BudShark

I can't see it... whats 499 doing?


----------



## Jestr40

I'm new here but have been lurking this thread for awhile now. My question is : Do you guys do this for every D* sat that is launched?


----------



## Sirshagg

499?


----------



## loudo

98 here on channel 11.


----------



## markymouse

still seaching on 499


----------



## GeorgeLV

I think we're going to be seeing a lot of repoints.


----------



## Herdfan

jrodfoo said:


> yeah, what's going on with channel 499 now!?


Still searching for signal, but we don't know what transponder its looking for.


----------



## Captaintrips420

499 still shows searching for signal for me.


----------



## JoeNY72

97 on TP 11 on 103(b) here as well. 0's on the others yet.


----------



## fleadog99

499 still searching...


----------



## moonman

99 on 'ponder 11...rest all zero's
So. Fla.
edit....back to zero now too...hope they are having fun with us!!


----------



## TimGoodwin

fleadog99 said:


> someone at d* is prob. messing with us:
> 
> Hey lets turn transponders off andon and watch them all freak out.... :lol: :lol:


It's Earl and Tom they are Fu*@ing with us all!!:lol:


----------



## GeorgeLV

Signal is now gone...


----------



## jimmyv2000

go test signal meters on TP 11 and you get 0


----------



## Mavrick

*IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!*


----------



## BobbyK

now its gone.


----------



## Sixto

Here's a picture ...

Edit: [Tom Robertson]Picture has been removed at OP request.


----------



## vurbano

Steve Robertson said:


> Wow that is a visual I did not need


ditto


----------



## JoeNY72

Signal gone now here, all 0's again.


----------



## CoachGibbs

jimmyv2000 said:


> Hmmmmmmmm Gibbs check it again i'm salem and now its at 98


It's back to 0 now actually. Probably is a good sign that I'm going to have to hire someone to fix it. The initial installer did a lousy job on 110 and 119 so I sort of expected it.


----------



## VeniceDre

Yeah, it's back to 0 now. They are definately testing the sat.


----------



## Sirshagg

Lets see what genius can figure on the channel(s) on TP11


----------



## RAD

Come on D*, that's not funny


----------



## jrodfoo

Herdfan said:


> Still searching for signal, but we don't know what transponder its looking for.


thanks for the update. I'm stuck at work.......til 7....only day this week! arrrrrrrgh. Guess I'll keep hitting F5. Thanks for the updates!


----------



## fleadog99

I think it is rather funny, come on you know you would be doing the same thing:lol: :lol:


----------



## LameLefty

RAD said:


> Come on D*, that's not funny


For those of us stuck at work . . . yes it is.


----------



## Larry

BudShark said:


> I can't see it... whats 499 doing?


Searching for signal.


----------



## BudShark

That was sweet though... we know its alive... we know its parked... its talking... the excitement is building (although I'm not going anywhere near Mike's visualizations...)


----------



## Steve Robertson

MikeR7 said:


> sorry, got carried away.


No problem I understand your excitement :lol:

Where is PC Eagle?


----------



## MikeR7

bwaldron said:


> Here ya go...


Very cool. :hurah:

But not quite as exciting as now the signal seems to be gone.:nono2:


----------



## oakwcj

From 5 minutes ago:


----------



## petergaryr

Still all zeroes here in Jacksonville, FL. That's not fair, guys!

499 is still "searching for signal"


----------



## SteveEJ

I've got it too.. Gonna do another satellite setup to see what it says!


----------



## Spyfy

Zero's here. Kept getting some weird messages I hadn't noticed as well. When I first tried to to signal strength test it told me it would interupt a scheduled signal strength test like it was interupting a recording. Strange. Then when I tried to change channels it said both tuners were in use, but didn't give me the option to select one to stop recording or anything. As far as I know nothing was being recorded at the time. Was doing this all from my Slingbox at home so it's possible something was being recorded, but it shouldn't have been. I reset the box to see if anything changes.


----------



## spoonman

Steve Robertson said:


> No problem I understand your excitement :lol:
> 
> Where is PC Eagle?


There is rumor he passed out


----------



## MikeR7

Steve Robertson said:


> No problem I understand your excitement :lol:
> 
> Where is PC Eagle?


poor guy, he is going to be so sorry he missed it.

But hey, the guys got to go to pre-school you know.:lol:


----------



## jimmyv2000

VeniceDre said:


> Yeah, it's back to 0 now. They are definately testing the sat.


At least most of us now know we have great dish alignments!


----------



## Spike

Here it is.. the photo.. I took it right when I first saw it light up.
:grin:


----------



## Tbettini

Spyfy said:


> Zero's here. Kept getting some weird messages I hadn't noticed as well. When I first tried to to signal strength test it told me it would interupt a scheduled signal strength test like it was interupting a recording. Strange. Then when I tried to change channels it said both tuners were in use, but didn't give me the option to select one to stop recording or anything. As far as I know nothing was being recorded at the time. Was doing this all from my Slingbox at home so it's possible something was being recorded, but it shouldn't have been. I reset the box to see if anything changes.


happened to me yesterday i had to reboot


----------



## Chris Blount

... and so begins the fun! Should be a great ride. The satellite HD revolution is upon us.


----------



## GeorgeLV

jimmyv2000 said:


> At least most of us now know we have great dish alignments!


So far it seems to be 50/50 whether you hit these in the 90s or 70s/low 80s. At least one poster in the 40s and looks like he'll need a repoint.


----------



## dbsdave

Spike said:


> Here it is.. the photo.. I took it right when I first saw it light up.
> :grin:


Can you say photoshop? I have nothing, and have had nothing all day....you are all liars I say, liars I tell you!


----------



## dshu82

got the girlfriend checking at home. nothing yet....


----------



## Captaintrips420

Hey, quick question for the HR20-700's...what is the latest software download you guys have. I want to make sure im hopefully current when things do get turned on.

Mine says 0x18a, Wed 8/22 at 2:50am with no future upgrades scheduled.


----------



## BudShark

18a is the national release
197 is the current Cutting Edge release


----------



## Spike

MikeR7 said:


> I think he is pulling our chain.:nono2:


I'm a Packers fan. I'd never do that to a Vikings fan!

:grin:


----------



## DawgLink

VeniceDre said:


> Yeah, it's back to 0 now. They are definately testing the sat.


Most excitement of my boring day


----------



## SteveEJ

Back to zero's here.. D* is messing with us! Well we are simply watching some testing with patches over our eyes as we really do not know what the test scripts are..:nono2:


----------



## paulman182

Here I am stuck at work, with a meeting set for 4:30-6PM.

I think I'm gonna be sick...hey, that's an idea!


----------



## mcbeevee

Jestr40 said:


> I'm new here but have been lurking this thread for awhile now. My question is : Do you guys do this for every D* sat that is launched?


Yes


----------



## markymouse

SteveEJ said:


> Back to zero's here.. D* is messing with us! Well we are simply watching some testing with patches over our eyes as we really do not know what the test scripts are..:nono2:


Still nice to see a blip on those transponders though, huh?!?!?!?!:joy:


----------



## khoyme

With this many eyes to the skies, I am willing to bet we accumulate a series of uploaded snaps of one transponder on at a time while the testing commences. Maybe when we have seen all of them, they will finally go live??


----------



## BudShark

Test Script #1:

Turn on transponder
Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
Turn off transponder

Test Script #2
Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


----------



## 2Guysfootball

All 0's here in Rhode Island


----------



## Steve Robertson

BudShark said:


> Test Script #1:
> 
> Turn on transponder
> Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
> Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
> Turn off transponder
> 
> Test Script #2
> Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


I bet you are right on with that if I were them I would do it and sit there and laugh my ass off at the fools on DBS Talk


----------



## Sirshagg

BudShark said:


> Test Script #1:
> 
> Turn on transponder
> Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
> Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
> Turn off transponder
> 
> Test Script #2
> Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


Ok people - CALM DOWN!


----------



## SteveEJ

We will probably be seeing alot of short term tests for the next few days.. EYES UP!!


----------



## SteveEJ

BudShark said:


> Test Script #1:
> 
> Turn on transponder
> Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
> Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
> Turn off transponder
> 
> Test Script #2
> Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


Now Thats Funny!! I don't care....:lol: :lol: :grin:


----------



## MikeR

BudShark said:


> Test Script #1:
> 
> Turn on transponder
> Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
> Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
> Turn off transponder
> 
> Test Script #2
> Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


Just don't turn on a channel until I get HOME!!!

Serious.


----------



## FeelForce1

Santa Claus has come but you must wait for the old people to wake up.


----------



## dbsdave

SteveEJ said:


> We will probably be seeing alot of short term tests for the next few days.. EYES UP!!


no, we will probably be seeing a lot of new hd channels, thats why the signal needs to stay constant, and soon


----------



## dogs31

MikeR7 said:


> poor guy, he is going to be so sorry he missed it.
> 
> But hey, the guys got to go to pre-school you know.:lol:


He's probably trying to figure out ways to pay us that 250,000 each.


----------



## Hdhead

FeelForce1 said:


> Santa Claus has come but you must wait for the old people to wake up.


Just dreaming it's not the GRINCH! :zzz:


----------



## mjbehren

I went to chk my signal strengths, and I got this msg.


Mb


----------



## MikeR

mjbehren said:


> I went to chk my signal strengths, and I got this msg.
> 
> Mb


Don't mess with Directv's testing!!!


----------



## ilfn143

they're just sending CW through all the transponder for testing.


----------



## purtman

2Guysfootball said:


> All 0's here in Rhode Island


Well, not everybody. I have a few friends there who are pretty cool! :lol:


----------



## donshan

Confirming 103(b) transponder 11 was at 88 here in Pacific NW at 9:29 AM PDT, but has now returned to zero. Picture attached.


----------



## mike_augie

mjbehren said:


> I went to chk my signal strengths, and I got this msg.
> 
> Mb


this is a known problems....a menu rbr fixes it....


----------



## DMRI2006

> All 0's here in Rhode Island


Same here.


----------



## MAVERICK007

What we're all actually feeling right now are contractions. About every 20 posts we seem to get a little closer, then rest, then we push again to see what kind of signal is out there...

*Wait... *_*we're giving birth to the much anticipated launch of big time HD!*_ :lol: :dance07: :thats: :dance01:


----------



## Sirshagg

purtman said:


> Well, not everybody. I have a few friends there who are pretty cool! :lol:


----------



## dbsdave

MAVERICK007 said:


> What we're all actually feeling right now are contractions. About every 20 posts we seem to get a little closer, then rest, then we push again to see what kind of signal is out there...
> 
> *Wait... *_*we're giving birth to the much anticipated launch of big time HD!*_ :lol: :dance07: :thats: :dance01:


The heck with that, time for a cesection.


----------



## Elistan98

can we get an epidurel?


----------



## MikeR

Breathe...1 - 2 -3...Breathe...1-2-3....Is it ON yet??


----------



## Hdhead

Why is everyone in such a giddy mood this day! :allthumbs


----------



## Spike

Elistan98 said:


> can we get an epidurel?


Do you think the epidurel will work? Satellites are big. Delivering one has got to hurt all over!


----------



## DawgLink

Wow...all this testing is getting me excited!


----------



## spoonman

Hdhead said:


> Why is everyone in such a giddy mood this day! :allthumbs


Just wait until they turn a channel on :grin:


----------



## yukon10

push push push


----------



## kfcrosby

BudShark said:


> Test Script #1:
> 
> Turn on transponder
> Go to dbstalk.com Anticipation and Tech threads
> Wait until excitement builds and people discuss leaving work to go home and watch satellite signal strength screen
> Turn off transponder
> 
> Test Script #2
> Repeat Script #1 whenever DBStalk.com calms down


Hell.. the way you guys are going, DBStalk will NEVER calm down  
:glasses:


----------



## donshan

mjbehren said:


> I went to chk my signal strengths, and I got this msg.
> 
> Mb


I had the same message . I did a Setup reset and got things back to normal. In fact I had to do two resets. The first one got the transponders working but I found I had lost HBO-HD and all but two of my normal HD channels. A second reset brought everything back OK

They are obviously adjusting things and that may be good news for some new HD real soon.


----------



## Spike

I can almost see the head!


----------



## moonman

D* doesn't need any stinking meters....they just need to tune to this thread
to see how it's going:lol:


----------



## LameLefty

Guys, please - this is the Tech Thread.

:backtotop 

G join the group hug over at the HD Anticipation thread. :lol:


:group:


----------



## Steve Robertson

kfcrosby said:


> Hell.. the way you guys are going, DBStalk will NEVER calm down
> :glasses:


Good thing they upgraded the servers when they did


----------



## SteveEJ

spoonman said:


> Just wait until they turn a channel on :grin:


I'm with you My Brother!! Getting a flack jacket and helmet ready!


----------



## Mavrick

I have it feeling D* was trying to tell us at the start it might be a girl!!! inkie:


----------



## MAVERICK007

Hdhead said:


> Why is everyone in such a giddy mood this day! :allthumbs


*Because there are alot of nervous fathers, err, subscribers in the delivery room!!!*


----------



## man_rob

DawgLink said:


> Wow...all this testing is getting me excited!


There's going to be a lot of sex tonight..."Honey, what got into you?"


----------



## Steve Robertson

man_rob said:


> There's going to be a lot of sex tonight..."Honey, what got into you?"


A BBC shoved up my Butt:lol:


----------



## chitowngator

Giggity Giggity!

I hope the family doesn't have any TV plans tonight, 'cuz the HR20 is all MINE 

Oh, and Go Gators! Glad to see so many of us in HD


----------



## FeelForce1

man_rob said:


> There's going to be a lot of sex tonight..."Honey, what got into you?"


Yeah with the remote stuck in one hand and not looking at her. :lol:


----------



## markymouse

chitowngator said:


> Giggity Giggity!
> 
> I hope the family doesn't have any TV plans tonight, 'cuz the HR20 is all MINE
> 
> Oh, and Go Gators! Glad to see so many of us in HD


We'll see you this weekend in Gainsville, bro........


----------



## 2Guysfootball

purtman said:


> Well, not everybody. I have a few friends there who are pretty cool! :lol:


 :lol: WHERE??????????


----------



## LameLefty

FeelForce1 said:


> Yeah with the remote stuck in one hand and not looking at her. :lol:


Not until the HD porn channels show up . . .

And keeping it more or less on topic, I'm hoping those tps light up SOON!  I wonder if I should run home and check the signal meter right now?


----------



## Sirshagg

FeelForce1 said:


> Yeah with the remote stuck in one hand and not looking at her. :lol:


I didn't see Playboy HD on the list.


----------



## MikeR

LameLefty said:


> Guys, please - this is the Tech Thread.
> 
> :backtotop
> 
> G join the group hug over at the HD Anticipation thread. :lol:
> 
> :group:


D* Engineers: Okay guys, do we have DBSTalk crashed yet?
DBSTalk Spy: Should be down in 2 minutes. New TLEs really threw them for a loop.
D* Engineers: Ready....Who wants to try Transponder 11?
DBSTalk Spy: Wait 30 seconds. Moderators are shutting down all non-essential systems.
D* Engineers: Good. This is a great show. Ready for HD......NOW!


----------



## MikeR

Steve Robertson said:


> A BBC shoved up my Butt:lol:


----------



## DawgLink

man_rob said:


> There's going to be a lot of sex tonight..."Honey, what got into you?"


:lol:

My visual image of me answering that involves me sleeping on the couch the rest of the night


----------



## purtman

When D* goes live, how often do we get these test signals on the sat? How long of a period has it normally been when these signals have shown up on the box? Thanks!


----------



## davring

markymouse said:


> We'll see you this weekend in Gainsville, bro........


We'll be there...maybe miss the new HD..Go Gators


----------



## cnmsales

My question is how long from when you start seeing the test signals to the time a sat goes live usually?


----------



## chopperjc

The only way my girlfriend gets any attention is if she dresses up like a satellite!


----------



## markymouse

davring said:


> We'll be there...maybe miss the new HD..Go Gators


Always a good game.....

It's on in HD on the locals here in Knoxville...

I'll be viewing!!!!


----------



## Steve Robertson

markymouse said:


> Always a good game.....
> 
> It's on in HD on the locals here in Knoxville...
> 
> I'll be viewing!!!!


Always a great game can't wait to watch along with about every other game on tv this weekend. This is the best time of year.


----------



## JeffBowser

I hate to add to the pandemonium here, but as LameLefty said, can we go back to being a more or less tech thread here, and save the verbal orgasms for the other thread ?


----------



## kfcrosby

Now that the cat is out of the bag....Has anyone bothered to check if there is a new set of TLE data?

just curious.....


----------



## SteveEJ

chopperjc said:


> The only way my girlfriend gets any attention is if she dresses up like a satellite!


With or With Out solar panels for xtra power?:grin:


----------



## jimmyv2000

chopperjc said:


> The only way my girlfriend gets any attention is if she dresses up like a satellite!


Thats funny

i guess the folks at D* are gonna tease us for a week with thier testing so 9/19 is probably a safe bet for the light up of the national HD:grin:


----------



## FeelForce1

JeffBowser said:


> I hate to add to the pandemonium here, but as LameLefty said, can we go back to being a more or less tech thread here, and save the verbal orgasms for the other thread ?


With your avitar? I don't think so.


----------



## mirwin101

markymouse said:


> Always a good game.....
> 
> It's on in HD on the locals here in Knoxville...
> 
> I'll be viewing!!!!


I was in Knoxville for the Southern Miss game last weekend. The Vol D better show up Saturday or it will be a long day in Gainesville...


----------



## LameLefty

kfcrosby said:


> Now that the cat is out of the bag....Has anyone bothered to check if there is a new set of TLE data?
> 
> just curious.....


Nope, not yet.


----------



## dedalus_00

chopperjc said:


> The only way my girlfriend gets any attention is if she dresses up like a satellite!


:rofl:

Fire up those thrusters!!!
a little more... time to put it in the orbital slot!!

...ok I'll stop there.


----------



## purtman

When D* goes live, how often do we get these test signals on the sat? How long of a period has it normally been when these signals have shown up on the box? Thanks!


----------



## markymouse

mirwin101 said:


> I was in Knoxville for the Southern Miss game last weekend. The Vol D better show up Saturday or it will be a long day in Gainesville...


You're right, barely got through that one.
Hopefully Fulmer did his job and we'll bring it Sat.


----------



## mbskills

Does anyone know what channel locations the new HD will be?


----------



## jefbal99

mbskills said:


> Does anyone know what channel locations the new HD will be?


Same as the SD counterparts


----------



## DarkAudit

jefbal99 said:


> Same as the SD counterparts


How many will be doing the lazy TNT-style upconverting instead of actual HD content?


----------



## oakwcj

I'd like to thank all the orbital mechanics, astronomy buffs, and others with bits and pieces of expertise in these areas, particularly my fellow lefty, Lame, for introducing us to TLEs, GTOs, GSOs, XIPS, and all the other members of the Acronym family. I've learned quite a bit and have enjoyed the experience.

Now, perhaps it's time to retire this thread.


----------



## purtman

First, I'd love this tech-related question answered. I've asked a couple of times.

When D* goes live, how often do we get these test signals on the sat? How long of a period has it normally been when these signals have shown up on the box? Thanks!


----------



## MAVERICK007

_Is this a TECH thread? _* I thought so!* :backtotop


----------



## shl4tech

oakwcj said:


> I'd like to thank all the orbital mechanics, astronomy buffs, and others with bits and pieces of expertise in these areas, particularly my fellow lefty, Lame, for introducing us to TLEs, GTOs, GSOs, XIPS, and all the other members of the Acronym family. I've learned quite a bit and have enjoyed the experience.
> 
> Now, perhaps it's time to retire this thread.


Before you do I would like to thank you and all the other Tech Guys here that have actually made watching this paint dry exciting. Sincerely, thanks.


----------



## davring

markymouse said:


> You're right, barely got through that one.
> Hopefully Fulmer did his job and we'll bring it Sat.


Ol' Fat Phil has his work cut out for him...
I don't hink he likes it in G'ville


----------



## LameLefty

purtman said:


> First, I'd love this tech-related question answered. I've asked a couple of times.
> 
> When D* goes live, how often do we get these test signals on the sat? How long of a period has it normally been when these signals have shown up on the box? Thanks!


I've never been involved in internet-based monitoring of DirecTV's prior launches and frankly, aside from Spaceway 1 and 2, those others weren't that exciting for most people except those covered by the first spotbeamed SD locals. This is MUCH more entertaining that that was. Gee, waiting for the Nashville WSMV Snowbird Report . . . yay. :lol:

Anyway . . . all that aside, I imagine it won't be very long at all, frankly. All the "real" testing has been going on since shortly after launch. I think probably most of the satellite systems were at least tested (if not wrung out completely) well before GSO, and it's been weeks and weeks since then.


----------



## purtman

I like the Gators, too, but ...:backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop


----------



## purtman

LameLefty said:


> I've never been involved in internet-based monitoring of DirecTV's prior launches and frankly, aside from Spaceway 1 and 2, those others weren't that exciting for most people except those covered by the first spotbeamed SD locals. This is MUCH more entertaining that that was. Gee, waiting for the Nashville WSMV Snowbird Report . . . yay. :lol:
> 
> Anyway . . . all that aside, I imagine it won't be very long at all, frankly. All the "real" testing has been going on since shortly after launch. I think probably most of the satellite systems were at least tested (if not wrung out completely) well before GSO, and it's been weeks and weeks since then.


Thanks!


----------



## dwrats_56

I did find this on the FCC Daily Digest today.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-276572A1.txt

here is the interesting part of the document.

Date Effective: 09/11/2007
Class of Station: Fixed Earth Stations
Grant of Authority
09/11/2007 - 09/11/2022Application for Authority
DIRECTV Enterprises, LLC
Nature of Service: Fixed Satellite Service
32 ° 5 ' 31.30 " N LAT.
SITE ID: SWUF
9608 East Old Vail Rd., Pima County, Tucson, AZ
110 ° 47 ' 14.10 " W LONG.
LOCATION:
VIASATKA1 9.1 metersANTENNA ID: LEOP-9
0.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO18300.0000 - 18800.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
0.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO19700.0000 - 20200.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
83.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO28350.0000 - 28600.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
83.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO29250.0000 - 30000.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
VIASATKA2 9.1 metersANTENNA ID: LEOP-9
0.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO18300.0000 - 18800.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
0.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO19700.0000 - 20200.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
83.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO28350.0000 - 28600.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
83.00 dBW PSK MOD DIGITAL VIDEO / AUDIO29250.0000 - 30000.0000 MHz 36M0G7W
Points of Communication:
SWUF - DIRECTV 10 - (102.8 W.L.)
Page 7 of 33
SWUF - DIRECTV 11 - (99.2 W.L.)
SWUF - DIRECTV 8 (K) - (101 W.L.)
SWUF - DIRECTV 9S - (101 W.L.)
SWUF - SPACEWAY 1 - (103 W.L.)
SWUF - SPACEWAY 2 - (99 W.L.)
E070163SES-LIC-20070731-01011 E


----------



## Sirshagg

This thread should stay as it's not a done deal yet, but it needs to get

:backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop


----------



## LameLefty

davring said:


> Ol' Fat Phil has his work cut out for him...
> I don't hink he likes it in G'ville


Nope, he doesn't, but he's still won some recent ones there. 

That said, since I get my HD locals from Spaceway 2 at 99W, what happens with D10 at 103W doesn't matter to me on that score.


----------



## CoachGibbs

Signal is back now on tp 11, I'm up to 58, lol.


----------



## MAVERICK007

purtman said:


> I like the Gators, too, but ...:backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop :backtotop


Agreed, let the tech talent work it's magic and let the rest of us enjoy the ride!:backtotop


----------



## spoonman

CoachGibbs said:


> Signal is back now on tp 11, I'm up to 58, lol.


Oh no here we go again :grin:


----------



## LameLefty

> did find this on the FCC Daily Digest today.


Is that a new uplink facility? Or new use for an existing facility? Given the different satellites involved, it seems like it must either be brand new or a place D* just contracted to use, not just D10-specific.


----------



## christojean

nm


----------



## Tbettini

96 on TP 11


----------



## shl4tech

96 on 11 here in the Western Suburbs of Chicago.


----------



## Ken Massingale

CoachGibbs said:


> Signal is back now on tp 11, I'm up to 58, lol.


Yep, 95 here on TP 11


----------



## mexican-bum

80% on TP 11


----------



## K4SMX

TP 11 back live at 99%


----------



## VARTV

CoachGibbs said:


> Signal is back now on tp 11, I'm up to 58, lol.


Getting 54-57 here in Virginia Beach, VA at 2:35 EDT


----------



## Captaintrips420

79 here in the Bay Area Cali


----------



## DMRI2006

91 on T11 here in Rhode Island.


----------



## dbhsatx

103(b) T-11 signal meters = 99/100
south Texas


----------



## FeelForce1

97 On TP 11 and steady holding!!!!


----------



## markymouse

97 on 11 - 103b


----------



## GeorgeLV

77-79 on 103b TP 11 in Las Vegas


----------



## packfan909

70 on TP11


----------



## Steve Robertson

How about another transponder 11 is getting boring


----------



## Tbettini

how many channels can they squeeze per TP again?


----------



## buckeyeb

How many channels can 1 transponder carry?


----------



## jsgiv

96 on TP 11 - Woodstock, GA


----------



## chitowngator

markymouse said:


> We'll see you this weekend in Gainsville, bro........


Yes you will... flying down Friday morning. Got MBA exams on Saturday morning, then I get to watch UF-UT in person... I'm so psyched. This was going to be my first Florida game in HD... but I'll settle for beer-goggle-vision from row God-knows-what while the wife soaks in the pigskin on plasma.

Are you really going to the game? I love to drink with the enemy


----------



## BobbyK

98


----------



## 2Guysfootball

DMRI2006 said:


> 91 on T11 here in Rhode Island.


98 now!!!!!!


----------



## dwrats_56

LameLefty said:


> Is that a new uplink facility? Or new use for an existing facility? Given the different satellites involved, it seems like it must either be brand new or a place D* just contracted to use, not just D10-specific.


I can't say, I am not an expert. I just thought it of interest because of the effective date, yesterday and the listing of DIRECTV 10 and 11


----------



## Sixto

Was 78 before, now 81 on TP11.


----------



## markymouse

chitowngator said:


> Yes you will... flying down Friday morning. Got MBA exams on Saturday morning, then I get to watch UF-UT in person... I'm so psyched. This was going to be my first Florida game in HD... but I'll settle for beer-goggle-vision from row God-knows-what while the wife soaks in the pigskin on plasma.
> 
> Are you really going to the game? I love to drink with the enemy


No I'll be watching from my HD 65 inch here in Knoxville...


----------



## mxd

Zip code-46538 Tp 11 - 95


----------



## K4SMX

A bodacious signal, BTW. 7 points stronger than its next door neighbor, 103(a)...


----------



## gator5000e

So what does all this mean to us lay people? How much testing do they need to do before they pop the new channels?

And markymouse, the Gator D is very suspect right now, especially the secondary. Ainge could have a good day. It may be a game of who has the ball last. The games against the Vols have become a great rivalry, but it's not quite the same since to Ol' Ball Coach left town. But should be fun anyway.


----------



## GeorgeLV

buckeyeb said:


> How many channels can 1 transponder carry?


Unknown. Depends on the symbol rate, FEC, modulation, and of course the bitrate DirecTV allocates per channel.


----------



## code4code5

103(b) TP11 88 in Denver


----------



## markymouse

gator5000e said:


> So what does all this mean to us lay people? How much testing do they need to do before they pop the new channels?
> 
> And markymouse, the Gator D is very suspect right now, especially the secondary. Ainge could have a good day. It may be a game of who has the ball last. The games against the Vols have become a great rivalry, but it's not quite the same since to Ol' Ball Coach left town. But should be fun anyway.


Always a great time!!

I'm curious about the testing too!! how many tests before fire up???


----------



## bcherry

96 on TP11 (Pittsburgh, PA)


----------



## CoachGibbs

VARTV said:


> Getting 54-57 here in Virginia Beach, VA at 2:35 EDT


Well at least I'm not alone on needing my dish realigned.


----------



## bwaldron

gator5000e said:


> And markymouse, the Gator D is very suspect right now, especially the secondary. Ainge could have a good day. It may be a game of who has the ball last. The games against the Vols have become a great rivalry, but it's not quite the same since to Ol' Ball Coach left town. But should be fun anyway.


Agreed on all points (Vols alum -- grad school -- and Florida resident here)


----------



## Hdhead

95 on HR20-100
55 on H20-100

Any idea why the difference?


----------



## tpm1999

Hdhead said:


> 95 on HR20-100
> 55 on H20-100
> 
> Any idea why the difference?


Try swapping the boxes or bbcs. That would tell you where the issue is.


----------



## l3laze

on 101* 91% on 11 in bay area california
103* b i get 85% in bay


----------



## Jeremy W

markymouse said:


> I'm curious about the testing too!! how many tests before fire up???


Nobody knows. We could have the new channels in 10 minutes, or next week. All we can do is wait.


----------



## smiddy

90 on 103(b) transponder 11 in STL.


----------



## doo4usc

SoCal,74 on both


----------



## VARTV

K4SMX said:


> A bodacious signal, BTW. 7 points stronger than its next door neighbor, 103(a)...


I'm just watching TP11... going between 56-59. A bit concerned when others are getting 90s+


----------



## ncgbrown

Eastern NC - 88 on 11


----------



## Tbettini

300,000 views or HD channels first?


----------



## bluemoon737

BMoreRavens said:


> Transponder 11 on 103b I have a 95 signal.


98 here...perhaps my HR20-100 wasn't flaking out early this morning after all. My guess is that I was seeing some sort of testing or something.


----------



## Jeremy W

VARTV said:


> I'm just watching TP11... going between 56-59. A bit concerned when others are getting 90s+


You should be very concerned with those numbers, unless there are thunderstorms in the area right now.


----------



## davring

100 on TP11 S. Fla


----------



## bluemoon737

oakwcj said:


> My prize for being first is a genuine Xenon ion necklace. It's quite inert and glows in the dark.


Sorry, but you need to see my posts from last night (actually early this AM eastern). I can take the prize for a pic of the first signal strength reading :hurah:


----------



## VARTV

Hdhead said:


> 95 on HR20-100
> 55 on H20-100
> 
> Any idea why the difference?


Getting the same reading on my H20 and HR20...


----------



## bwaldron

davring said:


> 100 on TP11 S. Fla


Nice


----------



## VARTV

Jeremy W said:


> You should be very concerned with those numbers, unless there are thunderstorms in the area right now.


Nope! Clear skies!!!


----------



## bwaldron

VARTV said:


> Nope! Clear skies!!!


Then Jeremy is right -- a dish realignment is probably in order.


----------



## mhking

Damn. I got no love at the top of the 2 p.m. hour just before I left for work from any of the transponders on 103(b). Just saw all those goose eggs.

Of course, I'll be checking when I get home after midnight (and with my luck, they'll go home for the night and shut it all down)...


----------



## markymouse

davring said:


> 100 on TP11 S. Fla


sweet!:hurah:


----------



## tuff bob

Hdhead said:


> 95 on HR20-100
> 55 on H20-100
> 
> Any idea why the difference?


it might be firmware differences, I remember the H20 would read low compared to my Tivos until I installed a CE on it. I don't know if that fix is national yet?


----------



## VARTV

bwaldron said:


> Then Jeremy is right -- a dish realignment is probably in order.


Calling now... LOL.


----------



## davring

mhking said:


> Damn. I got no love at the top of the 2 p.m. hour just before I left for work from any of the transponders on 103(b). Just saw all those goose eggs.
> 
> Of course, I'll be checking when I get home after midnight (and with my luck, they'll go home for the night and shut it all down)...


You may come home to some more channels of HD, maybe?


----------



## Jeremy W

tuff bob said:


> I remember the H20 would read low compared to my Tivos until I installed a CE on it. I don't know if that fix is national yet?


It is national.


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

will this be the first 100 page thread?


----------



## Mr.X

I just Got and 97 on TP 11


----------



## paulman182

I couldn't wait--I called my wife and had her check.

95 on transponder 11 in East Kentucky!:hurah: 

Well done, D*, and my installer!


----------



## ikeb

80 in newport beach, ca


----------



## smiddy

wilbur_the_goose said:


> will this be the first 100 page thread?


Don't know but expect it to get more posts until we have the first new HD channel.

HD is coming, HD is coming, put your eye glasses down, HD is coming...:ManiacalLaughter:


----------



## Jeremy W

wilbur_the_goose said:


> will this be the first 100 page thread?


I don't know if it'll be the first, but this thread is going way past 100 pages.


----------



## jlhoyt13432

98 in Hampton Roads, VA


----------



## Sixto

I'm rock solid on 81 (tp11). 

Now worried.

Experts think that maybe I'm gonna need a tweak to the Slimline dish someday?

My HD locals are also on 103 in mid 80's.


----------



## VARTV

jlhoyt13432 said:


> 98 in Hampton Roads, VA


I definitely have an issue now!


----------



## kaysersoze

94 in Boise


----------



## kaysersoze

drat i thought i might get the first post on page 100


----------



## kaysersoze

i really need to get a life


----------



## Gmaxx

87 on TP 11 in Bradford, MA! Here we go!


----------



## yensid

97 in Orlando


----------



## russelle777

Not yet


----------



## smiddy

Those beeps from the transponder are *sweet* music to my ears!


----------



## Tbettini

Light it up!!!!


----------



## davring

yensid said:


> 97 in Orlando


Good to go!


----------



## smiddy

Tbettini said:


> Light it up!!!!


I second that, Light It Up Man!


----------



## Jeremy W

85 with cloudy skies in Detroit.


----------



## mexican-bum

I am getting steady 80% on tp 11 on 103 (b), my locals come off 99 and I have 100% on TP4, wonder if i need an alignment, may have to get up there and tweak with it later with out hurting my 99 reading


----------



## faspina

I can probably figure this out when I get home. But I will ask because I want to know at work. 

I need to got o Sat signal Strength and look for what. Isn't the new Sat on 103b. What am I looking for?


----------



## jefbal99

Only page 62 here...


----------



## VAman

96 on 103b tp11

Central VA


----------



## loudo

Hdhead said:


> 95 on HR20-100
> 55 on H20-100
> 
> Any idea why the difference?


98 here on my H20 - 100.


----------



## dpeters11

Can't wait to look on mine tonight...wish I had a slingbox.


----------



## HDTVFreak07

97 here in Watertown, NY!


----------



## smiddy

100 pages, nice work all!


----------



## tpm1999

hmmm


----------



## bluemoon737

bluemoon737 said:


> 98 here...perhaps my HR20-100 wasn't flaking out early this morning after all. My guess is that I was seeing some sort of testing or something.


Actually I am at 100 on my main receiver (HR20-100 in the livingroom). The 98 is on my H20-600 in the kitchen. I guess I did a pretty good job dither pointing that slimline!


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

OK - The bird is alive - I don't think we need to post any more info on this TP.

Let's hold off till we get new info (like new TPs lit up or, gawd willing, an actual HD signal)


----------



## markman07

I am not at home but I can just feel a 96.


----------



## mhking

Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


----------



## bwaldron

smiddy said:


> 100 pages, nice work all!


Only 63 with my forum settings


----------



## Juppers

I've only got around 80%. Where can I read to learn how to dither this thing?


----------



## Peapod

mhking said:


> Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


It's still Searching for signal.


----------



## ljnskywalker

HDTVFreak07 said:


> 97 here in Watertown, NY!


Sweet, maybe it will be on when I get home from work, here in Rochester, NY


----------



## davring

mhking said:


> Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


Searching for signal on sat in (771)


----------



## bwaldron

mhking said:


> Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


Same as it has been (searching for signal)


----------



## kaysersoze

:icon_lol:


markman07 said:


> I am not at home but I can just feel a 96.


----------



## lwilli201

mhking said:


> Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


Still searching.


----------



## borghe

mhking said:


> Dumb question: what's channel 499 doing now that there's pingage?


unless they have 499 set to a channel on TP11, my guess is it's still saying searching for signal (which a bit a go some were still saying it was)


----------



## Sirshagg

Juppers said:


> I've only got around 80%. Where can I read to learn how to dither this thing?


http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/Slimline_Dish_Installation_Manual.pdf
Page 9


----------



## lwilli201

borghe said:


> unless they have 499 set to a channel on TP11, my guess is it's still saying searching for signal (which a bit a go some were still saying it was)


I think you hit it on the head. To bad they have not put a notice that it is a new sat and your receiver set up OK.

96 here.


----------



## HIGHWAY

98 ON 103b TP11


----------



## bluemoon737

bluemoon737 said:


> Actually I am at 100 on my main receiver (HR20-100 in the livingroom). The 98 is on my H20-600 in the kitchen. I guess I did a pretty good job dither pointing that slimline!


I'm seeing the same thing as I was seeing last night. If you go to signal meters, you can see flashes of signal on most of the TPs...you just have to wait. What I was doing last night was cycling through them and staying on each one for about 20 seconds. I was getting multiple flashes of signal on the lower numbered TPs last night and now I am getting them on the higher numbered ones as well (and of course the solid 100 on TP11  )


----------



## smiddy

HIGHWAY said:


> 98 ON 103b TP11


And you're reply number 2,500, excellent!

Transponder 11 5 by 5!


----------



## SParker

Jeremy W said:


> 85 with cloudy skies in Detroit.


95 here on the west side with cloudy skies so I guess my installer did a good job!


----------



## HoosierBoy

98 on 103b TP 11 in NW Indiana.


----------



## Brandon428

Im not getting anything anymore....might be the weather though. Its about to get pretty bad.


----------



## mjbehren

86 on TP11 Tuner 1.
86 on TP11 Tuner 2.

Cloudy in W. MI.



Mb


----------



## Tom Robertson

kaysersoze said:


> drat i thought i might get the first post on page 100


Who knows, you might after I clean this thread up...but it won't be this post. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

ssshhhh -- I just heard reindeer on the roof!


----------



## SParker

Hmmm I've dipped to 91..


----------



## smiddy

wilbur_the_goose said:


> ssshhhh -- I just heard reindeer on the roof!


ROTFLMMFAO!


----------



## FeelForce1

Been showing 96 on the signal meter, but 0 on the transponder screen. Is this right?


----------



## Brandon428

FeelForce1 said:


> Been showing 96 on the signal meter, but 0 on the transponder screen. Is this right?


Same here.


----------



## bwaldron

SParker said:


> Hmmm I've dipped to 91..


I dipped from 98 to 95 -- either a passing cloud or two (too lazy to look outside  ) or they're tuning things.


----------



## Tbettini

Mmm TP11 just went from 96 to 77


----------



## yukon10

97 on 103b TP11 in Georgia

anyone can tell me why my 99b is lower signal than the rest of my sats? all in 90's except 99b


----------



## VARTV

What is the minimum number when the signal is too low for a picture? Installer comes out tomorrow for realignment. I hope TP11 stays up. Asked CSR when HD channels get lit and she said the 19th...


----------



## smiddy

Hey, does anyone know if 499 has always been 720p? I can't recall what it was before...It is still searching, but _natively_ it is showing as 720p.


----------



## dogs31

VARTV said:


> What is the minimum number when the signal is too low for a picture? Installer comes out tomorrow for realignment. I hope TP11 stays up. Asked CSR when HD channels get lit and she said the 19th...


That's when the brand new packages will take effect. We will have some HD channels by this weekend.


----------



## VARTV

smiddy said:


> Hey, does anyone know if 499 has always been 720p? I can't recall what it was before...It is still searching, but _natively_ it is showing as 720p.


Yep... it's been 720p...


----------



## MikeR

VARTV said:


> What is the minimum number when the signal is too low for a picture?


In the 50s or lower.


----------



## smiddy

VARTV said:


> Yep... it's been 720p...


Thanks!
:scratchin:


----------



## bwaldron

yukon10 said:


> 97 on 103b TP11 in Georgia
> 
> anyone can tell me why my 99b is lower signal than the rest of my sats? all in 90's except 99b


Do you get your HD locals from 99 or 103? You may just be seeing readings from neighboring spotbeams.


----------



## VARTV

MikeR said:


> In the 50s or lower.


Yikes... Was getting high 50s but has dropped to the high 40s...


----------



## Tbettini

Im starting to panic signal is dropping its at 72 now


----------



## Zellster

103(b) Transponder 11 has 86

It's my first and only signal so far!

Edit: I left the signal meter on T11 and it's pretty steady at 97.

Hampstead, Maryland


----------



## MikeR7

now they are messing with you.......want to see how many heart attacks they can cause


----------



## bwaldron

Tbettini said:


> Im starting to panic signal is dropping its at 72 now


No need to panic.


----------



## VARTV

Tbettini said:


> Im starting to panic signal is dropping its at 72 now


Just went back up!


----------



## bwaldron

VARTV said:


> Just went back up!


Same here...back to 98.


----------



## SParker

Yup back to 95 here.


----------



## shl4tech

SParker said:


> Hmmm I've dipped to 91..


I dipped about 4 pts too


----------



## noneroy

Either everyone has a giant cloud over them, or they are adjusting the power levels. I'm going to be curious how long people stare at their signal strengths without any channels showing up. If, indeed, the 19th is correct...you've got a lot of blue screens to look at....


----------



## Tbettini

still 76 here


----------



## Sirshagg

Tbettini said:


> 300,000 views or HD channels first?


At this rate I've got to go with 300K, but I'm hoping it's close.


----------



## shl4tech

Back up to the previous 96.

If we are getting a signal here why does the "Signal Meter" tab till show "Not Acquired" for 103(b)? Sorry if this has already been asked I'm having trouble keeping up with all the posts.


----------



## SteveEJ

Wow, left with 99 pages, up to 102 now..
I just ran a 'Repeat satellite setup' on h20-100 and it now see's 103(b) and says status is 'OK'.

Low signal level here due to TSTMS..

Steve


----------



## SteveEJ

shl4tech said:


> Back up to the previous 96.
> 
> If we are getting a signal here why does the "Signal Meter" tab till show "Not Acquired" for 103(b)? Sorry if this has already been asked I'm having trouble keeping up with all the posts.


Change it to the active transponder and it should show you the signal level on both receivers if you have a DVR.


----------



## lwilli201

shl4tech said:


> Back up to the previous 96.
> 
> If we are getting a signal here why does the "Signal Meter" tab till show "Not Acquired" for 103(b)? Sorry if this has already been asked I'm having trouble keeping up with all the posts.


The signal meter is working for me on 103b


----------



## UrbanDad

Up to 95 here in Dallas, TX

(((Man, I really wish I knew what that meant  )))


----------



## shl4tech

SteveEJ said:


> Change it to the active transponder and it should show you the signal level on both receivers if you have a DVR.


Thanks. Engage brain before posting question.


----------



## dshu82

98 - 100 here outside Ft. Lauderdale


----------



## Radio Enginerd

dshu82 said:


> 98 - 100 here outside Ft. Lauderdale


High 70's on the west coast! TP 11 checking in with 77 here.


----------



## cashoe

95 on TP 11, both tuners.
here, in beautiful NE Pennsylvania.


----------



## Old Guy

Readings must be tied to the stock market.


----------



## oakwcj

bluemoon737 said:


> Sorry, but you need to see my posts from last night (actually early this AM eastern). I can take the prize for a pic of the first signal strength reading :hurah:


My prize was for being first with the TLE showing D10 had arrived.


----------



## Koyukon

hello. Who's exicted!!pusht!


----------



## kaysersoze

My wife says we are all losers


----------



## Jeremy W

kaysersoze said:


> My wife says we are all losers


You are what you marry. :lol:


----------



## wilbur_the_goose

wife is right


----------



## MIAMI1683

ok guess I missed something. TLE showing D10 @ 102.775, when? I left for a couple hrs and actually worked, Lefty, Ken, or oakwcj can you confirm and repost the tle's?


----------



## Steve Robertson

kaysersoze said:


> My wife says we are all losers


I happen to agree with her but we can't help ourselves


----------



## EaglePC

96 here in Buffalo ,NY
EaglePC missed it what time did it start ?


----------



## LameLefty

> ok guess I missed something. TLE showing D10 @ 102.775, when? I left for a couple hrs and actually worked, Lefty, Ken, or oakwcj can you confirm and repost the tle's?





Code:


DIRECTV 10
1 31862U 07032A   07255.37397566 -.00000107  00000-0  10000-3 0   777
2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451   698

Closer to 102.8 actually, but they're pushing 11 hours old already.


----------



## spoonman

Excitement seems to be dying down...time for D* to light up another TP :grin:


----------



## davring

EaglePC said:


> 96 here in Buffalo ,NY
> EaglePC missed it what time did it start ?


While you were sleeping..


----------



## lwilli201

kaysersoze said:


> My wife says we are all losers


   and loving it.


----------



## Sirshagg

MIAMI1683 said:


> ok guess I missed something. TLE showing D10 @ 102.775, when? I left for a couple hrs and actually worked, Lefty, Ken, or oakwcj can you confirm and repost the tle's?


That was *SO* 14 pages ago.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1104361&postcount=2179


----------



## kfcrosby

LameLefty said:


> Code:
> 
> 
> DIRECTV 10
> 1 31862U 07032A   07255.37397566 -.00000107  00000-0  10000-3 0   777
> 2 31862 000.0753 311.4085 0000944 068.6913 002.7538 01.00242451   698
> 
> Closer to 102.8 actually, but they're pushing 11 hours old already.


Sheezzz... how did I miss that one.....


----------



## bluemoon737

oakwcj said:


> My prize was for being first with the TLE showing D10 had arrived.


Ohhhhhhh...nevermind


----------



## EaglePC

CH 499 still searching for signal,is this just a guide issue


----------



## MIAMI1683

yup no doubt, waited like everyone else and damn I worked today (for real) and not just pushed paper and look what happens.


----------



## 2Guysfootball

Got 100% Sweet still just tp11


----------



## MIAMI1683

btw thanks for the repost


----------



## nd06irish

I'm at 97 and holding


----------



## RoundRockJohn

EaglePC said:


> CH 499 still searching for signal,is this just a guide issue


There's only one transponder throwing down a signal right now, and there's no way to tell what transponder 499 is tied to.


----------



## Ken984

Jeez a guy tries to get some work done and 15 pages later its there!!!!!! Whew its been a lot of fun learning and watching this. Thanks to Lefty and Oak and any others for helping me figure some things out along the way. Can't wait to get home and stare at the signal screen now!!!


----------



## dbmaven

MIAMI1683 said:


> ok guess I missed something. TLE showing D10 @ 102.775, when? I left for a couple hrs and actually worked, Lefty, Ken, or oakwcj can you confirm and repost the tle's?


Here's where it showed up:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1104344&postcount=2176

Edit - Jeez - I need to read faster. By the time I found and posted almost another whole page of posts..... :eek2:


----------



## oakwcj

RoundRockJohn said:


> There's only one transponder throwing down a signal right now, and there's no way to tell what transponder 499 is tied to.


No reason to believe it's "tied" to the satellite at all, since the channel has been up for weeks.


----------



## JDubbs413

RoundRockJohn said:


> There's only one transponder throwing down a signal right now, and there's no way to tell what transponder 499 is tied to.


499 is the B-Band test converter, if the B-Band converter is working it will showing searching for satellites lol. Ignore EaglePC hah.


----------



## MIAMI1683

Yea you guys are great and it has been very interesting. I guess the speculation may have been correct. The move was kept quiet untill it was done.


----------



## Jeremy W

oakwcj said:


> No reason to believe it's "tied" to the satellite at all, since the channel has been up for weeks.


It's definitely tied to the satellite, otherwise it wouldn't work the way it does.


----------



## borghe

Jeremy W said:


> It's definitely tied to the satellite, otherwise it wouldn't work the way it does.


pretty much. It is looking for a channel on 103(b). There is no question about that. That's how it works (all backwards and all ) But like others have said, if it isn't able to tune into the channel on the transponder that it's programmed to be looking for, it will show "searching for signal" even with TP11 lit up.


----------



## SteveEJ

EaglePC said:


> CH 499 still searching for signal,is this just a guide issue


Isn't this what it is supposed to say if your BBC is working correctly and the bird is not transmitting yet?


----------



## Radio Enginerd

kaysersoze said:


> My wife says we are all losers


Funny... my wife said something to that effect when I was home at lunch.


----------



## LameLefty

borghe said:


> pretty much. It is looking for a channel on 103(b). There is no question about that. That's how it works (all backwards and all ) But like others have said, if it isn't able to tune into the channel on the transponder that it's programmed to be looking for, it will show "searching for signal" even with TP11 lit up.


People have speculated it's tied to tp 17 (I think - I'm going from memory a few weeks to months old) - I don't know why they believe that, however.


----------



## Howie

85 on 11 on a cloudy day here 15 miles north of the Golden Gate Bridge.


----------



## SteveEJ

Question for Lefty:
Can you not have a transponder carrier present with a test signal that our 'Public' receivers cannot decode? This would account for a channel 499 type of situation correct?

Thanks..


----------



## Ken984

Yes they can be using it for real transmissions without us being able to see the feed, you would need the proper authorization from D*. Bschneider should be the first to see live video.


----------



## Jeremy W

SteveEJ said:


> Can you not have a transponder carrier present with a test signal that our 'Public' receivers cannot decode? This would account for a channel 499 type of situation correct?


You can, but that has nothing to do with channel 499. When the receiver shows a signal, that means that DirecTV is actually sending down data. It's not an actual signal strength meter, it just gives a percentage based off the bit error rate. And in order for there to be bit errors, there needs to be data. So there is definitely something being uplinked right now, but we just can't see it.


----------



## SteveEJ

That's what I thought.. Digital packets that can be encoded and encrypyed and most likely compressed lets D* do anything he wants and all we would see is transponder availability.. Right?


----------



## oakwcj

Jeremy W said:


> It's definitely tied to the satellite, otherwise it wouldn't work the way it does.


Not necessarily. If it were just searching for a specific transponder, there would be no way to distinguish between a working BBC and a defective one. It must be testing the ability to detect and upconvert a Ka-Lo [or whatever it's called] signal.


----------



## mbskills

Watching this on my slingbox while vacationing in Hawaii. That's dedication. Ooops gotta go here comes the wife.


----------



## davring

mbskills said:


> Watching this on my slingbox while vacationing in Hawaii. That's dedication. Ooops gotta go here comes the wife.


You sure it is called dedication?


----------



## Jeremy W

oakwcj said:


> If it were just searching for a specific transponder, there would be no way to distinguish between a working BBC and a defective one.


Why do you say this? It is searching for a specific transponder, apparently 17. If it gets transponder 17 from Spaceway 1, it'll show the error message that Spaceway 1 is broadcasting because the BBC obviously didn't activate. If the BBC does activate, the receiver will be looking at transponder 17 from D10, which is not active yet. Therefore it displays the searching... message.


----------



## SteveEJ

mbskills said:


> Watching this on my slingbox while vacationing in Hawaii. That's dedication. Ooops gotta go here comes the wife.


Dude.. Been There.. Done That! If in Oahu u need to go th the North Shore and stop at Gioviannis for Kah huku Shrimp!! Awesome Eats!!


----------



## rabi

mbskills said:


> Watching this on my slingbox while vacationing in Hawaii. That's dedication. Ooops gotta go here comes the wife.


I might call it CRAZY...

You're in Hawaii and you're on a computer?

and with your wife????


----------



## SteveEJ

Jeremy W said:


> Why do you say this? It is searching for a specific transponder, apparently 17. If it gets transponder 17 from Spaceway 1, it'll show the error message that Spaceway 1 is broadcasting because the BBC obviously didn't activate. If the BBC does activate, the receiver will be looking at transponder 17 from D10, which is not active yet. Therefore it displays the searching... message.


Could be why hands or off of transponder 17 for now.. Keeps BBC channel testing still valid..


----------



## dcben

donshan said:


> I looked at a number of TLEs in non-geostationary satellites from other lists on Cesestrak, and you are correctt that EVERY satellite of any type has a zero value of the 2nd derivative term in the TLE:
> 
> http://celestrak.com/NORAD/elements/
> 
> Like others posting here I am trying to understand how TLEs are used, so I will share what I learned about info on both the 1st and 2nd dervivative values in the TLE. * It seems to me that this 2nd derivative term won't tell us anything about D10.
> *
> 
> Well I missed all the excitement. Somebody has to work!.
> 
> Donshan,
> 
> Thanks so much for all the digging on the obsolete second derivative term. So much for that speculative insight. Still a mystery as to why data was withheld through most of the move. I still think it may be because the thrusters were burning almost continuously for three days. I had another thought that blew my second derivative term theory anyway. No doubt the thusters have been working for weeks reducing the orbit inclination. Now that thrust maybe orthogonal to the direction of motion (not sure of orbital mechanics here but Lefty might know) so the result might not show up in any of the mean motion elements. Way over my head there.
> 
> In any case, I can modestly can claim one victory. Look at the rev/da value from last night's TLE: 01.00242451
> 
> Remember I predicted that to move WEST in three days we'd have to see that value at about 1.0025000 or less (go back and check )
> 
> Looks like at 4am the D10s mean motion was still moving WEST at the full rate. We should see the next TLE value back up to 1.00273000 or so (that's if it going to stay where it supposed to be).
> 
> Good luck with the transponder watching.
> 
> Ben


----------



## mbskills

rabi said:


> I might call it CRAZY...
> 
> You're in Hawaii and you're on a computer?
> 
> and with your wife????


I knew this would add some fun. :lol: :grin:


----------



## smiddy

We're fast approaching 300,000. Gueses on when that will occur?


----------



## PWenger

smiddy said:


> We're fast approaching 300,000. Gueses on when that will occur?


I think as soon as the channels go live, there will be a flurry of posts for about an hour, then silence...

My hope, this happens soon enough that it doesn't reach 300,000!


----------



## Ken984

I have to say that Lefty was DEAD on about some kind of secrecy with the TLEs suddenly stopping for D10 for the past 3 days, very fishy business.


----------



## ilfn143

SteveEJ said:


> Question for Lefty:
> Can you not have a transponder carrier present with a test signal that our 'Public' receivers cannot decode? This would account for a channel 499 type of situation correct?
> 
> Thanks..


I think they're sending CW (continues waves) to test transponder for power, noise, ip2/ip3 (transponder linearity) etc etc.... before any intelligence signal


----------



## oakwcj

Jeremy W said:


> Why do you say this? It is searching for a specific transponder, apparently 17. If it gets transponder 17 from Spaceway 1, it'll show the error message that Spaceway 1 is broadcasting because the BBC obviously didn't activate. If the BBC does activate, the receiver will be looking at transponder 17 from D10, which is not active yet. Therefore it displays the searching... message.


I see what you're saying. It's interesting that both 103 sats have a tp 17 with a zero reading. Makes sense.


----------



## CTJon

What a job of testing we are doing for D* - they just can read this thread and see how their signal is doing.


----------



## SteveEJ

It was kind of weird about the transponder scanning being different this morning too. When I tested it last night there was still a long pause between the '0' results. This morning the pause was very short.. Normal you might say.. This might be a clue for D11 if they keep secrets again..


----------



## ivoaraujo

90 on TP11


----------



## donshan

I started a post listing transponder 11 readings from selected posts reporting all around the edges of the USA, (especially the four corners and middle) , including the central and mountain regions and all were above 80. However my Preview post test crashed and I lost it all so won't bother to do it again.

That sampling showed the entire USA is getting a good 80+ signal with a few exceptions that may have been during the ups and downs.

SO

* To: DirecTV:*

DBSTalk posters have done a CONUS test on transponder 11 for you for free! It is working.

Now , you get the HD channels on!, Thanks!


----------



## skohly

Zellster said:


> 103(b) Transponder 11 has 86
> 
> It's my first and only signal so far!
> 
> Edit: I left the signal meter on T11 and it's pretty steady at 97.
> 
> Hampstead, Maryland


Wow same here in Northern NJ. Between 90 and 89 on transponder 11


----------



## syphix

T11 at 97 here in Minnesota....and lovin' even getting _this_ far!


----------



## flyingtigerfan

So I think I need to work on the dish a little.

Dang thing was just installed.


----------



## SteveEJ

Mines in the 50's but there are some thunderstorms and thick clouds here right now.. Alignment test later with clear skies..


----------



## SParker

Is this satellite Ka or Ku? I know I heard one of those is very susceptible to thunderstorms..


----------



## Koyukon

I'm at work so indulge me. are the signals that ya'll are getting constant or up and down?


----------



## JeffBowser

I'd caution anyone against adjusting dishes based on a single transponder reading on a yet in testing satellite. That's cart before the horse, in my opinion.


----------



## Jeremy W

Koyukon said:


> I'm at work so indulge me. are the signals that ya'll are getting constant or up and down?


The signal has been constant for almost 3 hours now.


----------



## LameLefty

> Now that thrust maybe orthogonal to the direction of motion (not sure of orbital mechanics here but Lefty might know) so the result might not show up in any of the mean motion elements.


In addition to effects on eccentricity and inclination, any acceleration should eventually show up in other terms of the TLEs, such as the right ascension of ascending node, argument of perigee, etc.

As for why no TLEs were published during the interim, I have no idea. Could be that very few types of vehicles use ion propulsion EXCEPT comsats and that TLEs just aren't updated during their use because of the very long periods of acceleration that might be involved. I dunno. I really don't.

Or alternately, it could be as I hypothesized that DirecTV wanted a surprise, Boeing asked The Aerospace Corp. to "delay" publishing any interim TLEs during the big move and THAT'S what happened.

Other than laying out the possibilities, I have no real opinion (that I will share here . . . )


----------



## SteveEJ

Yea.. I agree.. Also don't want to do it during cloudy/stormy conditions either.. Might....zzzzzzztttttttt.... Ohhhhh .. Might get a shocking sensation.. hehe


----------



## Alan Gordon

JeffBowser said:


> I'd caution anyone against adjusting dishes based on a single transponder reading on a yet in testing satellite. That's cart before the horse, in my opinion.


Someone a few counties above me are getting signals much higher than me. I'd say that's a pretty good bet that I need to realign, BUT since my signal is in the 70s, I'm not going to worry about it for now...

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

JeffBowser said:


> I'd caution anyone against adjusting dishes based on a single transponder reading on a yet in testing satellite. That's cart before the horse, in my opinion.


Normally, I'd agree. But we've got people all over the country with readings in the high 90s, so if your readings are in the 50s, there is a problem.


----------



## syphix

Koyukon said:


> I'm at work so indulge me. are the signals that ya'll are getting constant or up and down?


Mine have been steady at 97% since I got home.


----------



## Koyukon

Jeremy W said:


> The signal has been constant for almost 3 hours now.


Thank you


----------



## JeffBowser

You could well be right, I am simply not comfortable with needless variables, and a satellite in testing is one hell of a variable....:lol:



Jeremy W said:


> Normally, I'd agree. But we've got people all over the country with readings in the high 90s, so if your readings are in the 50s, there is a problem.


----------



## azarby

Jeremy W said:


> Normally, I'd agree. But we've got people all over the country with readings in the high 90s, so if your readings are in the 50s, there is a problem.


I have 54 on TP 11 here in Phoenix.

Bob


----------



## SteveEJ

mine was in the upper 70's before the high density clouds with all of the charged molecules in them.. Duck.. More lightning.. I lost a Hughesnet modem, router, 3 lan cards a wireless keyboard/mouse combo and outside lights last week because of storms..


----------



## drisner

Hi, I've been lurking for a couple months while getting my HR20 setup and now while wating for the new HD channels.

I'm in Fontana, CA (Inland Empire of the Los Angeles area). I'm seeing a pretty constant 72 on tp 11. It concerns me that everybody in SoCal so far is seeing the 70s.

NoCal seems to be in the 80s; I seem to remember the pennisular FA people getting somewhat low numbers. All of the Midwest and mid-Atlantic folks seem to be getting high 90s to 100.

Maybe the transponder is pointed a little too far to the North and East?


----------



## davring

SteveEJ said:


> mine was in the upper 70's before the high density clouds with all of the charged molecules in them.. Duck.. More lightning.. I lost a Hughesnet modem, router, 3 lan cards a wireless keyboard/mouse combo and outside lights last week because of storms..


Don't ya just love Florida lightning? Is your dish grounded, ya, right


----------



## ilfn143

drisner said:


> Hi, I've been lurking for a couple months while getting my HR20 setup and now while wating for the new HD channels.
> 
> I'm in Fontana, CA (Inland Empire of the Los Angeles area). I'm seeing a pretty constant 72 on tp 11. It concerns me that everybody in SoCal so far is seeing the 70s.
> 
> NoCal seems to be in the 80s; I seem to remember the pennisular FA people getting somewhat low numbers. All of the Midwest and mid-Atlantic folks seem to be getting high 90s to 100.
> 
> Maybe the transponder is pointed a little too far to the North and East?


i'm in San Diego getting 89


----------



## bakers12

So, let me review the little I remember. The eccentricity is 944, so this is too much to call it parked. The rev/day is a little high so it's moving West slowly and the location was 102.7953 (but not stable), so it's within .05 degree of both 102.8 and 102.775.

Should we be able to guess that the next TLE will show a lower eccentricity, lower rev/day and more stable location near 102.775?

I'm just thinking, wondering and hoping.


----------



## drisner

ilfn143 said:


> i'm in San Diego getting 89


OK, so much for that idea. I guess it isn't large enough of a sample size to really make that kind of a conclusion.


----------



## SteveEJ

davring said:


> Don't ya just love Florida lightning? Is your dish grounded, ya, right


Yea.. That 12 gauge ground wire really made a difference.. Yea right.. When you hear a boom and at the same tile a bright flash followed by 4-5 seconds of sizzling I know we lost something.. It even tripped all of my inside GFI breakers..:eek2:

UPS's didn't help.. It followed the cat-5 lan cables.. Go figure..


----------



## dcben

bakers12 said:


> So, let me review the little I remember. The eccentricity is 944, so this is too much to call it parked. The rev/day is a little high so it's moving West slowly and the location was 102.7953 (but not stable), so it's within .05 degree of both 102.8 and 102.775.
> 
> Should we be able to guess that the next TLE will show a lower eccentricity, lower rev/day and more stable location near 102.775?
> 
> I'm just thinking, wondering and hoping.


Nope, rev/da as of last night was showing full speed drift WEST (.2 deg+ in 3 days).

The next TLE has to get the figure back up to the geostationary value of 1.00273something or thereabouts.

The inclination is still declining but will probably keep declining for some time.

I'll let Lefty adress the eccentricity.

Ben


----------



## jamieh1

Getting 99% here on the East coast, Washington NC


----------



## Ken984

That last tle is old relatively speaking, from this morning around 5 am, it more than likely has changed since then. If they have lit up a transponder and people have seen it steady for hrs now its a good bet it is not moving nearly as much as that tle suggests.


----------



## pdawg17

Based on how D* has added sats in the past, what should we expect to happen next? Do they turn on one transponder at a time or should "showtime" happen next?


----------



## spoonman

We hit 300K views


----------



## gslater

Grand Rapids, MI and showing a steady 96 on TP11 with overcast conditions. The installer did a great job here. Can't say enough about him. Spent over an hour installing the new dish a few months back (had a 3 lnb dish). He put two struts on it to make sure it didn't move and then spent nearly half an hour just aligning it.

So does anyone here know what testing for a new sat generally entails once Directv gets the handoff? What can we expect over the next several days?


----------



## Alan Gordon

JeffBowser said:


> You could well be right, I am simply not comfortable with needless variables, and a satellite in testing is one hell of a variable....:lol:


True, but most people have had readings stable since earlier today.

Mine has been holding steady (with the exception of a hour or so this afternoon) at 79-80 on Tuner 1, and 77 on Tuner 2.

People nearby have reported much higher signals, also steady. I think it's pretty safe to say that if you're readings are low now, they will probably continue to be low. A realignment might be needed...

~Alan


----------



## bakers12

dcben said:


> The next TLE has to get the figure back up to the geostationary value of 1.00273something or thereabouts.


Yeah, that's right. 1.002718 for GSO. 1.0025 or so to drift West. It's hard to keep track of all this. Thanks for the help.


----------



## SParker

gslater said:


> Grand Rapids, MI and showing a steady 96 on TP11 with overcast conditions. The installer did a great job here. Can't say enough about him. Spent over an hour installing the new dish a few months back (had a 3 lnb dish). He put two struts on it to make sure it didn't move and then spent nearly half an hour just aligning it.
> 
> So does anyone here know what testing for a new sat generally entails once Directv gets the handoff? What can we expect over the next several days?


Same here, I went from 95 to 96 so kudos to my installer.


----------



## Jeremy W

pdawg17 said:


> Based on how D* has added sats in the past, what should we expect to happen next? Do they turn on one transponder at a time or should "showtime" happen next?


We have no idea.


----------



## Koyukon

pdawg17 said:


> Based on how D* has added sats in the past, what should we expect to happen next? Do they turn on one transponder at a time or should "showtime" happen next?


good question.


----------



## johnrrigg

I have been checking 103b for an hour and show a 0 reading on tp11. I am in Bean Station TN. Should I be concerned?


----------



## JeffBowser

May as well add to it - I have 96 in a steady rain here.


----------



## ScoBuck

Koyukon said:


> good question.


Spaceway 2 had programming the same day that Boeing handed her over.


----------



## mika911

Southern California. 75 percent on transponder 11.  sounds like I need to adjust my dish.


----------



## Azdeadwood

95% on Tuner 1 &2 
Location:
30.37N -103.65W [Southwest Texas]


----------



## Alan Gordon

johnrrigg said:


> I have been checking 103b for an hour and show a 0 reading on tp11. I am in Bean Station TN. Should I be concerned?


YES!!

EDIT: It's now showing 0 at my location....

~Alan


----------



## Jeremy W

ScoBuck said:


> Spaceway 2 had programming the same day that Boeing handed her over.


The day is fading fast, it's not looking too good for new HD channels today.


----------



## Juppers

Jeremy W said:


> The day is fading fast, it's not looking too good for new HD channels today.


It's still early afternoon on the left coast.


----------



## purtman

johnrrigg said:


> I have been checking 103b for an hour and show a 0 reading on tp11. I am in Bean Station TN. Should I be concerned?


Yes on both counts! :lol:


----------



## GutBomb

98 here on TP11 in clear skies in boston.


----------



## Alan Gordon

ScoBuck said:


> Spaceway 2 had programming the same day that Boeing handed her over.


Usually it takes a couple of weeks... I doubt it will be that long this time, but I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that SpaceWay 2 was a unique example...

~Alan


----------



## ScoBuck

Alan Gordon said:


> Usually it takes a couple of weeks... I doubt it will be that long this time, but I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that SpaceWay 2 was a unique example...
> 
> ~Alan


They are ALL unique examples. Spaceway 1 had Detroit up 2 days after handover.


----------



## SteveEJ

Alan Gordon said:


> YES!!
> 
> EDIT: It's now showing 0 at my location....
> 
> ~Alan


Do you have a B Band Converter installed? If you go to 499 does it say Searching for Satellite? If it does then yes I would be concerned.. Might need a service call..


----------



## Ed Campbell

88-89 here in northern NM.


----------



## Alan Gordon

Jeremy W said:


> The day is fading fast, it's not looking too good for new HD channels today.


Several HD channels in the past were added as late as 8:00 - 9:00 P.M. EDT.

I'm not saying that's the case this time, just that it doesn't mean anything...

~Alan


----------



## Alan Gordon

SteveEJ said:


> Do you have a B Band Converter installed? If you go to 499 does it say Searching for Satellite? If it does then yes I would be concerned.. Might need a service call..


It's back up now! It just went down for a minute...

~Alan


----------



## mika911

mika911 said:


> Southern California. 75 percent on transponder 11.  sounds like I need to adjust my dish.


Hum, I've read back through and southwest seems to have numbers similar to mine. Possible DirecTV still needs to tweak it to even out the country?


----------



## Alan Gordon

ScoBuck said:


> They are ALL unique examples. Spaceway 1 had Detroit up 2 days after handover.


I had forgotten that!

You are also correct in that they are ALL unique examples... especially the KA satellites...

~Alan


----------



## johnrrigg

SteveEJ said:


> Do you have a B Band Converter installed? If you go to 499 does it say Searching for Satellite? If it does then yes I would be concerned.. Might need a service call..


Yes I do have the converter and searching for sarellite signal on 499,


----------



## saxon2000

gslater said:


> Grand Rapids, MI and showing a steady 96 on TP11 with overcast conditions.


GENERALLY speaking; East coast signals are reporting stronger than West coast.
Might be something, might be nothing. Perhaps D* 'tilts' it this way to compensate for weather?

Funny, how the first indication I noticed of any position change was on the N2YO website this morning. They had been showing D10 at 102.56 continuously for weeks until this morning when it changed to 102.57.

Maybe. just maybe, they got the tealeaf before we did.

83 holding steady, Las Vegas NV.

Turn it on, dammit! :bang


----------



## dedalus_00

purtman said:


> Yes on both counts! :lol:


:lol: I'm getting 96 with clear skies in the Boston metro.


----------



## Radio Enginerd

mika911 said:


> Southern California. 75 percent on transponder 11.  sounds like I need to adjust my dish.


A few of us in Sacramento, CA had the same thought hearing from all those folks in the east coast that report 95-100. Maybe my installer was on crack OR there is something about that TP we don't know.


----------



## gslater

saxon2000 said:


> Funny, how the first indication I noticed of any position change was on the N2YO website this morning. They had been showing D10 at 102.56 continuously for weeks until this morning when it changed to 102.57.


I've seen it go back and forth between 102.56 and 102.57 for a week now. Usually it doesn't stay at 102.57 for very long. It's just the position in the orbit that does it.


----------



## SteveEJ

johnrrigg said:


> Yes I do have the converter and searching for sarellite signal on 499,


Check it again.. It went down for a few minutes.


----------



## SParker

Anyone know how many HD channels they can put per TP?


----------



## Sourdough

I'm getting 93-94 in Grass Valley, CA


----------



## Alan Gordon

SParker said:


> Anyone know how many HD channels they can put per TP?


8 - 10 MPEG4 HD channels...

~Alan


----------



## swissin

I now have Comcrapy boo! boo! 
I will convert when the bird is all set up.


----------



## Sirshagg

I would doubt we have anywhere near enough stats to make any conclusions about there being a stronger signal in one place or the other. This would seem especially true since everyones results will be entirely dependent on how well their dish was aimed.


----------



## John4924

Alan Gordon said:


> 8 - 10 MPEG4 HD channels...
> 
> ~Alan


See this post for a more detailed discussion....

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1082143&postcount=260


----------



## Alan Gordon

John4924 said:


> See this post for a more detailed discussion....
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1082143&postcount=260


Yep! I've read that... in fact, I joined in on the discussion...

~Alan


----------



## Tbettini

Getting 0 at TP11 now


----------



## johnrrigg

SteveEJ said:


> Check it again.. It went down for a few minutes.


Still no signal 103b. I ran the satalite setup again and got an error on 103b all others were ok. Im sure if call tech support they will tell me there is not supposted to be a signal on 103b.?


----------



## donshan

mika911 said:


> Southern California. 75 percent on transponder 11.  sounds like I need to adjust my dish.


I would wait awhile. Digital reception quality goes from garbage to perfect as soon as the signal is strong enough for the receiver to receive accurate bitstream numbers. A higher signal strength reading does not make your picture any better once that receiver solidly locks in.

There are some installers on this site that know the minimums, but if my memory serves 50 is bad, but as soon as you get into the 70s it should work. Rain fade might then be an issue, but I would wait to adjust the dish with just one 75 reading.


----------



## RichardL

84 in SF Bay Area, CA. Cloudy


----------



## lwilli201

Tbettini said:


> Getting 0 at TP11 now


Still 96 in Missouri.


----------



## saxon2000

Sirshagg said:


> I would doubt we have anywhere near enough stats to make any conclusions about there being a stronger signal in one place or the other. This would seem especially true since everyones results will be entirely dependent on how well their dish was aimed.


I agree. We cannot tell much from only one TP.

I will refrain from any more knee-jerk conclusions until D* 'lights it up'.

Once I'm getting all those lovely HD channels I will then check signal strength.

Thanks for the gravity adjustment!

:bowdown:


----------



## Jeremy W

Was just at 86, now at 0. Looks like D10 may have exploded, this is not good.

Edit: Back to 86 now, looks like the explosion was just a rumor.

Edit 2: Now back to 0. It's obviously going in and out now, I'm going to stop posting every time it changes.


----------



## CoachGibbs

Mine got up to the low 60's top, but now without a cloud in the visable sky, my signal is 47. I got a local installer come out on the 19th to fix it.


----------



## MAVERICK007

SteveEJ said:


> Check it again.. It went down for a few minutes.


I've got B Band converters in place and all I have seen on channel 499 is "Searching...". Also, I can get a 96 on one transponder of 103B.

_*Question...* *"What should I be seeing on channel 499???"*_


----------



## Jeremy W

MAVERICK007 said:


> Question..."What should I be seeing on channel 499???"


Searching...


----------



## lwilli201

MAVERICK007 said:


> I've got B Band converters in place and all I have seen on channel 499 is "Searching...". Also, I can get a 96 on one transponder of 103B.
> 
> You are good to go. Exactly what it should be.


----------



## MAVERICK007

lwilli201 said:


> MAVERICK007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got B Band converters in place and all I have seen on channel 499 is "Searching...". Also, I can get a 96 on one transponder of 103B.
> 
> You are good to go. Exactly what it should be.
> 
> 
> 
> *Thanks for the reassurance! Just want to be ready when D10 goes full tilt!*
Click to expand...


----------



## SParker

Looks like they might be done testing for the day? All 0's here.


----------



## DrZaiusATL

Zero's in the ATL


----------



## RichardL

Has there been any info on which channels will use 720p and which will use 1080i?

I don't recall seeing anything on that anywhere.


----------



## Sirshagg

Jeremy W said:


> Was just at 86, now at 0. Looks like D10 may have exploded, this is not good.
> 
> Edit: Back to 86 now, looks like the explosion was just a rumor.
> 
> Edit 2: Now back to 0. It's obviously going in and out now, I'm going to stop posting every time it changes.


Perhaps it exploded and is now stuck in a time dilation loop.


----------



## shl4tech

All 0's in Chicago


----------



## richlife

Mine here in NC did the same drop to 0 within the past 10 minutes. Now back up to 89 on TP11.


----------



## Rojma

Man I want to see Law and Order in HD tonight in MPEG4 instead of MPEG2!!! C'mon turn on TNTHD already!!! It's in the online guide!


----------



## oakwcj

RichardL said:


> Has there been any info on which channels will use 720p and which will use 1080i?
> 
> I don't recall seeing anything on that anywhere.


Depends on the source.


----------



## LameLefty

I got home and testing in time to see 96 here on both tuners in the suburbs of Nashville! Woohoo!  First worthwhile signal I've had on 103 since I got HD last October.

But now I'm reading zeros again. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.


----------



## morgantown

LameLefty said:


> I got home and testing in time to see 96 here on both tuners in the suburbs of Nashville! Woohoo!  First worthwhile signal I've had on 103 since I got HD last October.
> 
> But now I'm reading zeros again. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.


That (signal drop) was the 3:30 break at the facility in Cali. They should be back momentarily....


----------



## SteveEJ

MAVERICK007 said:


> I've got B Band converters in place and all I have seen on channel 499 is "Searching...". Also, I can get a 96 on one transponder of 103B.
> 
> _*Question...* *"What should I be seeing on channel 499???"*_


"Searching for satellite signal" is the correct response. Signal on 103(b) Transponder 11 is what we have been watching.. Looks like you are OK.

Someone else had no signal on TP-11. They _might_ have a problem.


----------



## chitowngator

97 on 103(b)TP11 in the Chicago burbs for a few seconds, then it went bye bye.


----------



## Sirshagg

So doesn anyone have some theory of what they are doing that would make it go up and down like we are seeing?


----------



## syphix

A theory in the chatroom is that they're testing different power output levels, trying to get the best signal with the least amount of power.

But honestly, it's a shot in the dark...no one knows...been down for quite a bit now, though...


----------



## LameLefty

syphix said:


> A theory in the chatroom is that they're testing different power output levels, trying to get the best signal with the least amount of power.
> 
> But honestly, it's a shot in the dark...no one knows...been down for quite a bit now, though...


Good theory. If the Chatroom worked for me reliably with Firefox on my Mac I'd be in there discussing it too. Too close to prime viewing time to fire up Safari just for that.


----------



## John4924

syphix said:


> A theory in the chatroom is that they're testing different power output levels, trying to get the best signal with the least amount of power.
> 
> But honestly, it's a shot in the dark...no one knows...been down for quite a bit now, though...


My theory...it is that guy in the garage flipping that switch on and off...asking his wife.."Honey, do you know what this switch is for?" [while the neighbors garage door is going up and down]

I think it's that same guy! :lol:


----------



## computersecguy

Alrighty... I am so excited... I too am showing all zeros, but on a side note, all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


----------



## Jeremy W

computersecguy said:


> all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


All of my HD channels are fine.


----------



## syphix

computersecguy said:


> Alrighty... I am so excited... I too am showing all zeros, but on a side note, all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


Try refreshing your services online...others have posted this today and it seems to be a "side effect" of the new HD tier beginning to be activated.


----------



## JDubbs413

computersecguy said:


> Alrighty... I am so excited... I too am showing all zeros, but on a side note, all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


Yep had the same thing earlier. Just re-order it like you would online and it will be back in seconds.


----------



## rock329

Chicago Sports channel 640 has an HD channel. So I now have two channel 640's. I don't think this was there before.


----------



## JACKIEGAGA

computersecguy said:


> Alrighty... I am so excited... I too am showing all zeros, but on a side note, all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98498


----------



## Ed Campbell

LameLefty said:


> Good theory. If the Chatroom worked for me reliably with Firefox on my Mac I'd be in there discussing it too. Too close to prime viewing time to fire up Safari just for that.


Works OK for me.


----------



## gmmorrell

rock329 said:


> Chicago Sports channel 640 has an HD channel. So I now have two channel 640's. I don't think this was there before.


Actually, I noticed it for the first time a couple of days ago. I went into filters and selected HDTV and there is was. Sweet addition but no idea when it lit up. Not today though.


----------



## tombrady1

computersecguy said:


> Alrighty... I am so excited... I too am showing all zeros, but on a side note, all my HD channels except for Fox are showing not purchased, call customer support 721. Is anyone else getting this?


I have the same thing going on with my hd channels too. "not purchased" call sustomer support 721.

Hope it has something to do with the upgrades.


----------



## chuckyHDDTV

I guess they are done messing with the sat. 0's in Col, OH on TP11, 103b


----------



## computersecguy

JACKIEGAGA said:


> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98498


Thanks for the link... yep some how my HD also got cancelled. Does this mean something soon???


----------



## johnrrigg

tombrady1 said:


> I have the same thing going on with my hd channels too. "not purchased" call sustomer support 721.
> 
> Hope it has something to do with the upgrades.


I just got off of the phone with tech support trying to fix my 103 sat error, while I was on the phone the tsr ask if I had just changed my plan. She spent 10 min getting me back to where I can recieve all of the new channels. She said they were having some strang things happen with accounts. She also said not to worry about the 103 error. After all of the lurking and waiting I am not confident that I wont have problems when the bird comes to life.


----------



## snowman33

On 103b transponder 11, I have no signal on tuner 1, but a signal of 95 on tuner 2 (a little earlier today) . Could that be a bbc problem? Usually on channel 499 I get "searching for signal", but once in a while I get the static screen that says bbc not connected. I also have the Zinwell 6802 multiswitch. I called Directv about the switch and told them about this board saying it had to be a Zinwell WB68. The CSR didn't know, so transferred me to the next level tech. He said that is not quite true. He said the 6802 will work fine also. What do you think? By the way, this is my first post. I really enjoy this site. It is very informative. Thanks for your help.


----------



## cygnusloop

snowman33 said:


> On 103b transponder 11, I have no signal on tuner 1, but a signal of 95 on tuner 2 (a little earlier today) . Could that be a bbc problem? Usually on channel 499 I get "searching for signal", but once in a while I get the static screen that says bbc not connected. I also have the Zinwell 6802 multiswitch. I called Directv about the switch and told them about this board saying it had to be a Zinwell WB68. The CSR didn't know, so transferred me to the next level tech. He said that is not quite true. He said the 6802 will work fine also. What do you think? By the way, this is my first post. I really enjoy this site. It is very informative. Thanks for your help.


The tech is WRONG. Only the WB68 will pass Ka-lo. The 6802 will not. Call back.

and :welcome_s to DBSTalk.


----------



## biggie4852

Mavrick said:


> *IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!*


----------



## loudo

Rojma said:


> Man I want to see Law and Order in HD tonight in MPEG4 instead of MPEG2!!! C'mon turn on TNTHD already!!! It's in the online guide!


Don't you mean TNT Stretch-O-Vision??:hurah:


----------



## lwilli201

loudo said:


> Don't you mean TNT Stretch-O-Vision??:hurah:


Law and Order and Without a Trace are HD, not Stretch-O-Vision. I believe that both shows have been produced in HD from the beginning.


----------



## dbmaven

pg2724 said:


> DirecTV plans to create a tier of HD-only channels when it rolls out its much-ballyhooed expanded high-definition TV packages, possibly as early as next week.


Why is this in the D10 Tech thread, when it's already a separate thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=98509
??


----------



## LameLefty

lwilli201 said:


> Law and Order and Without a Trace are HD, not Stretch-O-Vision. I believe that both shows have been produced in HD from the beginning.


Law & Order goes _waaaay_ back - I don't think it was HD to begin with.


----------



## VeniceDre

lwilli201 said:


> Law and Order and Without a Trace are HD, not Stretch-O-Vision. I believe that both shows have been produced in HD from the beginning.


Law And Order is shot on film, so it was easy to go back and transfer the earlier seasons to HD.


----------



## VARTV

CoachGibbs said:


> Mine got up to the low 60's top, but now without a cloud in the visable sky, my signal is 47. I got a local installer come out on the 19th to fix it.


I think we're in the same boat! Got the same numbers. Installer comes tomorrow... thank God I work from home...


----------



## vollmey

Without a Trace possibly, Law and Order no way. I watched one from 2000 the other day that was stretched (Law and Order).


----------



## Hoxxx

Rushed home to see all zero's boo hoo:eek2:


----------



## vollmey

VeniceDre said:


> Law And Order is shot on film, so it was easy to go back and transfer the earlier seasons to HD.


Good point Venice. The one I watched the other day they must have missed. I have seen others older (98,99) that seemed to be in true HD. But Stretch does not bother me that much.


----------



## 1948GG

lwilli201 said:


> Law and Order and Without a Trace are HD, not Stretch-O-Vision. I believe that both shows have been produced in HD from the beginning.


Same as 'Judging Amy' and 'X-Files' from Season 5 forward. Actually, 'Law and Order' of course was in SD for several early seasons (shows been on just about forever!), somewhere NBC started doing it in HD (all filmed of course in Panavision) about the same time that Fox changed with X-Files and CBS started doing their top-line shows (like CSI) in Panavision (transmitted in HD) as well.

So, very few 'series' tv shown by TNT is any form of 'streatchovision' although the early episodes of long running series are. They made the decision to do that rather than what Universal-HD does with 'Northern Exposure', leave in 3x4 mode but in HD, as none of that series was filmed in Panavision.


----------



## loudo

1948GG said:


> So, very few 'series' tv shown by TNT is any form of 'streatchovision' although the early episodes of long running series are. They made the decision to do that rather than what Universal-HD does with 'Northern Exposure', leave in 3x4 mode but in HD, as none of that series was filmed in Panavision.


Universal, even though it is pillar bared, looks a lot cleaner and sharper than the TNT programs in Stretch-O-Vision.


----------



## Tom Robertson

D10 is home, nicely (more or less) tucked into place. The last 8 pages or so have been mostly non-tech stuff, so I'm going to temporarily close this thread. When someone has a press release, new TLE with analysis, or testing info, PM any moderator. We'll either post or open the thread for the post and allow more discussion.

Fair 'nuff? Oh, yeah you'd have to answer me via PM. 

Cheers,
Tom


----------

