# Should the DirecTv 3D Update include the Checkerboard Format?



## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Mitsubishi and Samsung sold over 4 million 3D ready DLP HDTVs in the United States. However, 3D ready DLP HDTVs are only compatible with a 3D Format called the Checkerboard Format. Should the DirecTv 3D update include an option for the Checkerboard Format?


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

No, because it's probably not feasible, and it's not forward looking (no future for checkerboard). Btw, I have two TVs which accept checkerboard input.


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## georule (Mar 31, 2010)

I voted yes, because I have two of those TVs.

But, really, if I was working for DirecTV and in charge of making that decision, it would come down to how much is it going to cost me to do vs the number of viewers I help?

The reality is, there are more of those 3D-capable checkerboard TVs in American living rooms right now than all the non-checkerboard 3D-capable TVs put together. It won't stay that way, but it is true now. And even after it stops being true, they will still be a very sizable percentage of the total 3D-capable sets in living rooms for some years to come.

So it is certainly worth *something* to make that effort. . . the question is what does it cost? I have no reason to think today the current hardware can't do it, when the current hardware can do the other format even tho the guts of that current hardware is not exactly brand-spanking new. So likely it is an additional software algorithm that needs developing. Yes, that costs money too. . . but maybe not so much as to make it impractical compared to the number of customers and potential customers you help.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

georule said:


> I voted yes, because I have two of those TVs.


I voted No, because I also have two Mits units and the $100 adapter will work just fine with D*'s current implementation.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

georule said:


> I voted yes, because I have two of those TVs.
> 
> But, really, if I was working for DirecTV and in charge of making that decision, it would come down to how much is it going to cost me to do vs the number of viewers I help?
> 
> ...


You make some good points. Most people who own a perfectly functioning HDTV are not going to replace that HDTV with a new 3D HDTV. If 3D is to take off then it only makes sense to offer a product that is compatible with an existing base of 4 million 3D ready DLP owners. Requiring adapters and other equipment is only going to make your market penetration smaller. It has been announced that the Mitsubishi Checkerboard Converter will not be compatible with the Samsung 3D ready DLPs. A smaller market penetration will result in fewer sales of 3D PPV, 3D ESPN, etc., by DirecTv. Additionally, if Dish or a cable provider made their product Checkerboard Compatible then that could result in additional loss of revenue by DirecTv. It is the right thing to do from a financial and customer incentive.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> It has been announced that the Mitsubishi Checkerboard Converter will not be compatible with the Samsung 3D ready DLPs.


Link?

I've read just the opposite


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Link?
> 
> I've read just the opposite


Here is the link you requested:

http://hdguru.com/samsung-legacy-3d-tvs-are-not-compatible-with-mitsubishis-new-3d-converter/1577/


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

Ah, so it was a Mits decision.

Can't say I blame them.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Ah, so it was a Mits decision.
> 
> Can't say I blame them.


Would your response be different if your DLP was a Samsung?


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> Would your response be different if your DLP was a Samsung?


Nope, I still wouldn't blame Mits, I'd blame Samsung for their lack of support to those who purchased their sets.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

spartanstew said:


> Nope, I still wouldn't blame Mits, I'd blame Samsung for their lack of support to those who purchased their sets.


I meant your vote in the poll. I was just curious. I take it from your earlier comments that you will be buying the Mitsubishi Checkerboard Converter for your Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP sets. I do agree with you that Samsung is a company that does not consider customer loyalty to be a high priority.


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## spartanstew (Nov 16, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> I meant your vote in the poll. I was just curious. I take it from your earlier comments that you will be buying the Mitsubishi Checkerboard Converter for your Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP sets. I do agree with you that Samsung is a company that does not consider customer loyalty to be a high priority.


Oh, yes, I supposed I would change my vote if that was the case.

But everything I had read previously said the adapter would work with Sammy's too.


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## Elvis Is Alive (Sep 16, 2009)

As an owner of a Samsung LED DLP, I voted yes naturally. We are at the mercy of the device manufacturers at this point. Luckily there is a Panasconic bluray player that will output checkerboard. Hopefully DirecTV will follow their lead.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DIRECTV will be supporting side-by-side format for 3D TV. As far are I know, they will not be supporting Checkerboard format at all. For those folks that are looking to buy 3D TVs, make sure to keep this in mind. I hope to have a list of sets that are known to be compatible in the not too distant future, but at this time, I have no such list.


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## lwilli201 (Dec 22, 2006)

Are Checkerboard format TVs still being sold? Has there been an agreement on a standard 3D format? Since I purchased a Beta Video recorder many years ago, I have waited to get new technology until the format wars are over.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

lwilli201 said:


> Are Checkerboard format TVs still being sold? Has there been an agreement on a standard 3D format? Since I purchased a Beta Video recorder many years ago, I have waited to get new technology until the format wars are over.


DLP 3D ready HDTVs were not a victim of the format war. CEM, content providers, etc. want 3D to adopted by the main stream. Over 4 Million 3D ready DLP HDTVs were sold in the US. Allowing these owners to enjoy 3D would go a long way towards getting 3D into as many households as possible. Offering the 3D Checkerboard Format as option by DirecTv does not affect any owner of a newer 3D capable set. It is a win for everyone. More 3D viewers means more content for everyone. The larger the base of 3D viewers means that content providers have more incentive to offer more programming, Blu-rays in 3D, etc. From my understanding all that would be required to allow the 3D Checkerboard Format would be a software upgrade by DirecTv.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> From my understanding all that would be required to allow the 3D Checkerboard Format would be a software upgrade by DirecTv.


From my understanding, DIRECTV will not be supporting the Checkerboard format.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

lwilli201 said:


> Are Checkerboard format TVs still being sold? Has there been an agreement on a standard 3D format?


I think the 2010 Mitsubishi DLP sets will accept checkerboard input, though at least some will also accept side-by-side. Other than that, no more checkerboard, so far as I know. There has been an agreement on a 3D standard, HDMI 1.4a.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

GregLee said:


> I think the 2010 Mitsubishi DLP sets will accept checkerboard input, though at least some will also accept side-by-side. Other than that, no more checkerboard, so far as I know. There has been an agreement on a 3D standard, HDMI 1.4a.


If thats the case, then there is ZERO reason to offer a checkerboard format by directv... The economics of offering something to a few thousand, (a number that will NOT increase ever) if that, vs. to everyone that buys a 3d tv going forward is insignificant... And why add more software to a system and then have another layer of tech support that their csrs need to know for less than 1% of their customers...


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

inkahauts said:


> If thats the case, then there is ZERO reason to offer a checkerboard format by directv... The economics of offering something to a few thousand, (a number that will NOT increase ever) if that, vs. to everyone that buys a 3d tv going forward is insignificant... And why add more software to a system and then have another layer of tech support that their csrs need to know for less than 1% of their customers...


In that case lets stop offering component outputs by DirecTv. Everyone knows that newer HDTVs all have HDMI inputs. Why should DirecTv spend a few dollars to support legacy equipment. If a customer can not spend thousands to update to the newest and greatest every year then they are not committed to technology. Sure the economy may be suffering and people may have families to feed but if they can't suck it up and take one for the team they are not committed. If 3D doesn't take off because of lack of market penetration then I am sure that the companies telling the consumers to replace all of their equipment every year will come up with a nice excuse to tell their stockholders why it didn't work out.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Would supporting checkerboard take more bandwidth? That would be a major consideration. I think DirecTV likes side-by-side because it doesn't use more bandwidth.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

dpeters11 said:


> Would supporting checkerboard take more bandwidth? That would be a major consideration. I think DirecTV likes side-by-side because it doesn't use more bandwidth.


It would be a software option in the menu that would require zero more bandwidth. We have the option to change the resolution output from 720p to 1080i depending on the capability of our HDTV. It would be similar to that.


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## celblazer (Oct 29, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> If thats the case, then there is ZERO reason to offer a checkerboard format by directv... The economics of offering something to a few thousand, (a number that will NOT increase ever) if that, vs. to everyone that buys a 3d tv going forward is insignificant... And why add more software to a system and then have another layer of tech support that their csrs need to know for less than 1% of their customers...


In that case why have component, s-video, optical, digital coaxial audio, rca audio and video included on HD receivers for compatibility when all new TV's are HDMI. Surely dropping all those outputs that are not needed on current TV's would save some money per receiver and need less tech support then all the current connections. So why not add checkerboard for all the DLP TV's already out there.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> It would be a software option in the menu that would require zero more bandwidth. We have the option to change the resolution output from 720p to 1080i depending on the capability of our HDTV. It would be similar to that.


Got it. Didn't know if side-by-side could be converted to checkerboard like that.


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## dcowboy7 (May 23, 2008)

Chess is better.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

dcowboy7 said:


> Chess is better.


I believe they have implemented that version of 3D at Hooters Restaurants across the country.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Checkerboard support is not possible with the current hardware. The only reason the current hardware can support 3D at all is because DirecTV is using a frame-compatible transmission method, and the STB doesn't have to do any processing. The STB would have to have the ability in hardware to convert the side-by-side format to checkerboard, and the current STBs simply do not have it. Period.

The 3D update isn't actually adding the ability to work with 3D. The STBs could do it today without any issue. It's just backend stuff, like automatically signalling the TV that the content is 3D, and hiding the 3D channels from non-3D TVs.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Checkerboard support is not possible with the current hardware. The only reason the current hardware can support 3D at all is because DirecTV is using a frame-compatible transmission method, and the STB doesn't have to do any processing. The STB would have to have the ability in hardware to convert the side-by-side format to checkerboard, and the current STBs simply do not have it. Period.
> 
> The 3D update isn't actually adding the ability to work with 3D. The STBs could do it today without any issue. It's just backend stuff, like automatically signalling the TV that the content is 3D, and hiding the 3D channels from non-3D TVs.


Jeremy,

If it is not possible then I understand that. However, I was told by some on this forum that my HR20-700 was not able to output a 1080p signal but a FW upgrade made this possible. My question to you is why is it not possible. All I am asking for is reasoned logic that non engineers / programmers like myself can understand. Additionally, what is your background of expertise. Thanks.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

GregLee said:


> Other than that, no more checkerboard, so far as I know.


Checkerboard input is also accepted by the current Samsung 3D sets, though of course they also accept the current standard 3D formats.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I was told by some on this forum that my HR20-700 was not able to output a 1080p signal but a FW upgrade made this possible.


Well you weren't told that by me, so I fail to see why I should care.


geaux tigers said:


> My question to you is why is it not possible. All I am asking for is reasoned logic that non engineers / programmers like myself can understand.


Did you even read my post beyond the first sentence? I explained it very clearly.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Checkerboard support is not possible with the current hardware. The only reason the current hardware can support 3D at all is because DirecTV is using a frame-compatible transmission method, and the STB doesn't have to do any processing. The STB would have to have the ability in hardware to convert the side-by-side format to checkerboard, and the current STBs simply do not have it. Period.
> 
> The 3D update isn't actually adding the ability to work with 3D. The STBs could do it today without any issue. It's just backend stuff, like automatically signalling the TV that the content is 3D, and hiding the 3D channels from non-3D TVs.


If that is the case then why is a FW update required for our receivers in order to watch 3D? How do you know it is only backend stuff? I am not trying to be combative but simply want to know why. Others have stated that enabling the 3D Checkerboard Format is possible and would involve programming algorithms to allow the conversion by our receivers.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> If that is the case then why is a FW update required for our receivers in order to watch 3D?


I'm pretty sure I said it's not.


geaux tigers said:


> How do you know it is only backend stuff?


Because the method DirecTV is using is *frame-compatible*. That means it's being sent down and output as a regular 1080p signal. All of the magic happens in the TV. The update will also enable the GUI to work properly on 3D channels.

But like I said, the update is not absolutely necessary. Look at Comcast's recent 3D broadcast of the Masters. They didn't update their STBs at all, and as a result people with 3DTVs had to manually select 3D mode, and the GUI didn't work properly. But the 3D was fine.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> I'm pretty sure I said it's not.
> 
> Because the method DirecTV is using is *frame-compatible*. That means it's being sent down and output as a regular 1080p signal. All of the magic happens in the TV. The update will also enable the GUI to work properly on 3D channels.
> 
> But like I said, the update is not absolutely necessary. Look at Comcast's recent 3D broadcast of the Masters. They didn't update their STBs at all, and as a result people with 3DTVs had to manually select 3D mode, and the GUI didn't work properly. But the 3D was fine.


I do not question what you are telling me about the broadcast 3D signal. However, my question is can a FW update to our receivers allow the frame-compatible signal to be converted to the 3D Checkerboard Format by our receivers?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> my question is can a FW update to our receivers allow the frame-compatible signal to be converted to the 3D Checkerboard Format by our receivers?


Oh, well if you ask it like that...

NO!

You can keep asking, but you're never going to get a different answer.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Oh, well if you ask it like that...
> 
> NO!
> 
> You can keep asking, but you're never going to get a different answer.


Can I get a FW update to turn my 4 cylinder car into a V-12?


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

geaux tigers said:


> However, my question is can a FW update to our receivers allow the frame-compatible signal to be converted to the 3D Checkerboard Format by our receivers?


If a general purpose cpu, such as the one in the D* STBs or in your computer at home, does image processing, it has to be a pixel at a time. A TV picture has lots of pixels, and they're flowing through the STB very fast. The cpu doesn't have time to do a calculation for each. Instead of taking pixels one-by-one, they have to be dealt with many at once, but that can't be done by a general purpose cpu. It takes special purpose hardware. The current D* STBs do have special image processing hardware, but it's not specialized for computing checkerboard signals, but rather for other tasks.

A FW update can set the general purpose cpu new processing jobs, but it can't change the parts of the STB which are special purpose.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I ask again what is your* expertise *that makes you so positive the answer is no?

There was a time in this world when only the stupid people thought the world was round. Thank goodness the NO people didn't sway Columbus. I guess Columbus was a YES person.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

GregLee said:


> If a general purpose cpu, such as the one in the D* STBs or in your computer at home, does image processing, it has to be a pixel at a time. A TV picture has lots of pixels, and they're flowing through the STB very fast. The cpu doesn't have time to do a calculation for each. Instead of taking pixels one-by-one, they have to be dealt with many at once, but that can't be done by a general purpose cpu. It takes special purpose hardware.  The current D* STBs do have special image processing hardware, but it's not specialized for computing checkerboard signals, but rather for other tasks.
> 
> A FW update can set the general purpose cpu new processing jobs, but it can't change the parts of the STB which are special purpose.


Greg,

I hope you are wrong but thank you for your response. Finally, a logical fact specific explanation besides the simple word no or it can't be done. You were also able to explain yourself without being belligerent. I guess some people on this forum were not loved as children.


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## BattleZone (Nov 13, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> I ask again what is your* expertise *that makes you so positive the answer is no?


We know which processors are in the receivers - that is well known, long-established, and fairly easy to confirm information (i.e., you could open up your receiver and see). The chip manufacturer, Broadcomm, has released specs for those chips. Careful reading of the specs will tell you that the chipset doesn't have the capability to do the processing necessary to convert side-by-side 3D into checkerboard 3D.

A bit of Googling will answer these questions.

Per those specs, the chipset was always able to output 1080/24p, though early DirecTV firmware disabled that output resolution - support was added later. The chipset is NOT capable of outputting in 1080/60p, which is the only "1080p" format many early "1080p" TVs support, and no firmware update can change that.

A quick-and-easy "two sentence" explanation of why checkerboard 3D can't be supported has been given. If you want to learn more, the technical specs are available and there are articles on the net that will explain the terms and fine details in the specs at greater length. And many of those documents are written by the manufacturers of the chips themselves, lest you suspect that you aren't being given the real facts.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I ask again what is your* expertise *that makes you so positive the answer is no?
> 
> There was a time in this world when only the stupid people thought the world was round. Thank goodness the NO people didn't sway Columbus. I guess Columbus was a YES person.


Regardless of Jeremy's expertise, I do NOT see DIRECTV supporting checkerboard format for 3DTV. You're welcome to keep petitioning for it, but it's almost certainly wasted breath.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Finally, a logical fact specific explanation besides the simple word no or it can't be done. You were also able to explain yourself without being belligerent. I guess some people on this forum were not loved as children.


I explained myself once, you ignored it. I'm not going to waste more time repeating what I've already posted just to satisfy you.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

If the current DirecTv receivers can not output the 3D Checkerboard format then it would be nice if DirecTv and the other television content providers would put pressure on the CEM to come up with a solution for 3D ready DLP HDTVs. 4 million HDTV owners is a large number to ignore. The larger the base of 3D HDTVs then the the larger the subscriber base for 3D content. I am assuming that those involved with 3D want it to be successful and make a profit.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> If the current DirecTv receivers can not output the 3D Checkerboard format then it would be nice if DirecTv and the other television content providers would put pressure on the CEM to come up with a solution for 3D ready DLP HDTVs. 4 million HDTV owners is a large number to ignore. The larger the base of 3D HDTVs then the the larger the subscriber base for 3D content. I am assuming that those involved with 3D want it to be successful and make a profit.


I understand your position, having one of these and wanting it to work.
"3D ready" sounds like it isn't exactly/truly ready, since the final format is still up for debate [or has been decided and this format goes the way of the HDDVD/BetaMax].
As one that bought a 1080p TV only to find out later [since Sony NEVER listed which 1080p it did] it doesn't work for 1080p24, I too felt screwed and Sony didn't give a **** about their customers who brought these TVs.
"Early adopters" always run these risks.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

As I mentioned over on AVSForum, hopefully Directv will get Cyberlink to add checkerboard output to Directv2PC, since they've already accomplished it with PowerDVD 10.

This would be a lot easier to do than try to add it to the STBs, if it's even possible.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Samsung use to make HD DirecTv receivers back in the day because I owned one. DirecTv should tell Samung to do the right thing and make a 3D Checkerboard Converter if they ever want to see any repeat business. Mitsubishi made an HD DirecTv receiver as well because that was my first HD DirecTv receiver. However, Mitsubishi is making a converter for its customers but decided to not allow Samsung DLP owners to benefit from it. Maybe, DirecTv could tell Mitsubishi to not be so anal and to allow the Samsung owners a seat at the table. Hey, its a crazy world and anything is possible.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Samsung use to make HD DirecTv receivers back in the day because I owned one.


They still make DirecTV receivers. They just don't put their name on them anymore.


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## jefbal99 (Sep 7, 2007)

Voted No, DirecTV can choose to support whatever format that they want to. They need to do whatever is best for their company and system. The price of being an early adopter is stuff doesn't always end up supported. Look at the very early HDTVs that only had component hook ups, they will soon be the way of the DoDo...


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

jefbal99 said:


> Voted No, DirecTV can choose to support whatever format that they want to. They need to do whatever is best for their company and system. The price of being an early adopter is stuff doesn't always end up supported. Look at the very early HDTVs that only had component hook ups, they will soon be the way of the DoDo...


Yeah, but those HDTVs have been in service for 12 years.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Samsung use to make HD DirecTv receivers back in the day because I owned one. DirecTv should tell Samung to do the right thing and make a 3D Checkerboard Converter if they ever want to see any repeat business. Mitsubishi made an HD DirecTv receiver as well because that was my first HD DirecTv receiver. However, Mitsubishi is making a converter for its customers but decided to not allow Samsung DLP owners to benefit from it. Maybe, DirecTv could tell Mitsubishi to not be so anal and to allow the Samsung owners a seat at the table. Hey, its a crazy world and anything is possible.


Hey, I get it, but it's the risk of early technology .. Quite frankly, this is likely a Mitsubishi problem more so than a DIRECTV problem.


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## jefbal99 (Sep 7, 2007)

Doug Brott said:


> Hey, I get it, but it's the risk of early technology .. Quite frankly, this is likely a Mitsubishi problem more so than a DIRECTV problem.


Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner!!!


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## georule (Mar 31, 2010)

If the hardware isn't compatible, then oh well. 3DC-1000 here I come.


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

I have a Mitsubishi DLP (60737), and I will need the adapter. I will get it when there is content I'm interested in.

I can understand why Mitsubishi will not support the Samsung DLP's. You would think Samsung would support their customers, especially after calling their sets 3D ready.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Athlon646464 said:


> I can understand why Mitsubishi will not support the Samsung DLP's.


The only way I could understand it would be if they were selling the converters at a loss. I highly doubt that they're doing that, so it doesn't make sense to me. They don't have to provide support for Samsung TVs, just don't explicitly lock them out.


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## houskamp (Sep 14, 2006)

ahh, the joys of buying brand new tech. it's usualy outdated in a few months..


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> The only way I could understand it would be if they were selling the converters at a loss. I highly doubt that they're doing that, so it doesn't make sense to me. They don't have to provide support for Samsung TVs, just don't explicitly lock them out.


My thinking is that they are not going to help sell Samsung TV's by making something available to convert one format to another. That's what I meant.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but I understand their business decision. If they sell more TV's as a result, then that is how they win. I don't think they are going to make a bundle on the adapter.

They can point to Sumsung for not supporting their customers as well (even if it is just implied.)


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

houskamp said:


> ahh, the joys of buying brand new tech. it's usualy outdated in a few months..


Me thinks HDMI 1.4a will likely fix that for 3D.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

Athlon646464 said:


> My thinking is that they are not going to help sell Sumsung TV's by making something available to convert one format to another. That's what I meant.


It wouldn't help Samsung sell TV's what-so-ever, since Samsung doesn't sell DLPs anymore.

What it will do is get people pissed off Samsung, and in turn, they won't purchase from Samsung in the future. Now, this doesn't automatically mean said people will buy Mits, but hey, one less competitor.


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

taz291819 said:


> It wouldn't help Samsung sell TV's what-so-ever, since Samsung doesn't sell DLPs anymore.


OK - did not know that. Thanks.
But - perhaps allowing Samsung to let their customers flap in the breeze is why they would decide to do that, at least for now.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

HDMI 1.4a will do nothing for DirecTVs 3D service as our receivers don't have it. They will be using the side by side method with 960x1080 going to each eye so it doesn't require the extra bandwidth that the more advanced 1920x1080 3D requires (which is what HDMI 1.4a is about).

I personally think/hope that the current generation of 3D tech will be short lived. I just don't find shutter glasses and their respective high costs will be able to last. $150 glasses being lost or broken is just too high of an expense. As soon as they can figure out how to get polarized 3D to work in the home I think everyone will start to switch to that technology. The TVs will be more expensive, but glasses costing $5 or less will more than make up for it in the long run.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> HDMI 1.4a will do nothing for DirecTVs 3D service as our receivers don't have it. They will be using the side by side method with 960x1080 going to each eye so it doesn't require the extra bandwidth that the more advanced 1920x1080 3D requires (which is what HDMI 1.4a is about).


That's not quite right. The side-by-side format is included in HDMI 1.4a, and (after an update) our receivers will have it. The 1.4a revision to 1.4 specifically provides for the side-by-side format.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

The side by side method that DirecTV is using does not require HDMI 1.4, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use it.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

GregLee said:


> That's not quite right. The side-by-side format is included in HDMI 1.4a, and (after an update) our receivers will have it. The 1.4a revision to 1.4 specifically provides for the side-by-side format.


I don't think that's true Greg, meaning our receivers will be upgraded to HDMI 1.4a (without ethernet and other options). Our receivers are HDMI 1.2 I believe, and they can pass side-by-side as is right now. My graphics card is HDMI 1.3 and passes side-by-side, top/bottom, checkerboard, etc. just fine.

The firmware update is for the receiver's software I believe, not for HDMI.

Now, like the PS3 is going to get, if they wanted to send full 1080p 3D (via frame packing), then yes, it would need a firmware update.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

taz291819 said:


> I don't think that's true Greg, meaning our receivers will be upgraded to HDMI 1.4a (without ethernet and other options). Our receivers are HDMI 1.2 I believe, and they can pass side-by-side as is right now.


I don't think D* receivers "pass" anything, in the relevant sense. In the chain Source -> Pass -> Display, D* receivers are Sources (AVRs Pass, TVs Display), and Sources are required by HDMI 1.4(a) to produce just one of the 3D TV formats. Side by side is one of those formats, so (assuming they handle EDID information appropriately) D* receivers will count as HDMI 1.4a devices.

But it's just terminology, anyway. What if I'm wrong and our receivers don't count as 1.4a devices? It doesn't really matter.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

GregLee said:


> I don't think D* receivers "pass" anything, in the relevant sense. In the chain Source -> Pass -> Display, D* receivers are Sources (AVRs Pass, TVs Display), and Sources are required by HDMI 1.4(a) to produce just one of the 3D TV formats. Side by side is one of those formats, so (assuming they handle EDID information appropriately) D* receivers will count as HDMI 1.4a devices.
> 
> But it's just terminology, anyway. What if I'm wrong and our receivers don't count as 1.4a devices? It doesn't really matter.


You're correct that it doesn't really matter, but for the record, HDMI 1.4 is not required for SbS 3D, and never has been.

For instance, the game Avatar for the PS3 and XBox360 can output SbS for 3D, and currently, neither of those consoles are HDMI1.4.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

taz291819 said:


> You're correct that it doesn't really matter, but for the record, HDMI 1.4 is not required for SbS 3D, and never has been.


Who said it was? The question was whether D* receivers ("sources") will be HDMI 1.4a devices, not whether D* receivers will need to be connected to HDMI 1.4a display devices for 3D. I said previously, "The side-by-side format is included in HDMI 1.4a, and (after an update) our receivers will have it," and you disagreed with that.


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## Spanky_Partain (Dec 7, 2006)

Need a I Don't Care option in the Poll....


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Spanky_Partain said:


> Need a I Don't Care option in the Poll....


The poll shouldn't even exist, because it's about as relevant as a poll asking "Should the DirecTV 3D update turn non-3DTVs into 3DTVs?"


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Athlon646464 said:


> I have a Mitsubishi DLP (60737), and I will need the adapter. I will get it when there is content I'm interested in.
> 
> I can understand why Mitsubishi will not support the Samsung DLP's. You would think Samsung would support their customers, especially after calling their sets 3D ready.


There is some concern that the Mitsubishi Converter will not be compatible with A/V Receivers because of Mitsubishi's actions. The 3D Checkerboard Format will pass through an HDMI 1.3 A/V Receiver while the other 3D Formats will not. The Mitsubishi Converter may recognize that the A/V Receiver is not a Mitsubishi DLP and block the signal. You could hook up the converter directly to your Mitsubishi DLP but you would lose your surround sound from your A/V Receiver in the process. This is just a hypothesis as no one knows until these adapters are released into the wild.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Why would that block the signal? I would assume that the converter would go after the AV receiver right before it enters the TV, so it shouldn't care.

It would go DirecTV receiver, AV receiver, Mits converter, Mits DLP TV. That way the checkerboard format goes directly from the converter into the TV.

I could see that there may be a problem if you tried to put the converter between the DirecTV receiver and the AV receiver, but I'm not sure why you would do that.

I have to believe that the Mits converter box would be smart enough to pass non-3D programming through without trying to convert it. Otherwise it would be an issue with any non-3D channel you are trying to watch and you would constantly have to unhook it and connect the other components straight into the TV if you were watching non-3D material.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> I would assume that the converter would go after the AV receiver right before it enters the TV, so it shouldn't care.


Of course it would. The signal going into the AVR doesn't need to be converted, so putting the converter before it doesn't make any sense.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> Why would that block the signal? I would assume that the converter would go after the AV receiver right before it enters the TV, so it shouldn't care.
> 
> It would go DirecTV receiver, AV receiver, Mits converter, Mits DLP TV. That way the checkerboard format goes directly from the converter into the TV.
> 
> ...


It is my understanding that HDMI 1.3 A/V Receivers will not pass a 3D Signal from a Blu-ray player. It is my understanding that the 3D signal has some encoding in it that tells the equipment whether or not the equipment is 3-D capable. HDMI 1.3 receivers do not have the ability to encode the information and therefore will not pass the signal or will tell the equipment to only output a 2D signal. HDMI 1.3 cables should work fine transmitting the signal but HDMI 1.3 equipment is another matter. I believe Harmon Kardon will be updating some of its HDMI 1.3 A/V Receivers by FW to make them 3D capable but it is the only company that I am aware of that is. The 3D Checkerboard Format will pass through an HDMI 1.3 A/V Receiver. However, you will need to put the Mitsubishi Converter between the 3D Video Source and the the A/V Receiver to make this possible. The converter also only has one input / output so you may need an HDMI 1.4 switch as well. I do not know if DirecTv's 3D signal will pass through an HDMI 1.3 Receiver.

This is my basic knowledge from reading posts and articles. You can find a lot more information over at the AVS Forum. Two good links for information on 3D are:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

DirecTVs 3D implementation will work fine with HDMI 1.3 AV receivers. The Mits converter will work fine here if you place it after the AV receiver before going into the TV.

Blu ray players on the other hand will have an issue as they will be using full HD signals to each eye. This will require HDMI1.4, and HDMI 1.4 AV receivers if they are placed in between the Blu-Ray player and the TV. This is why some of the 3D Blu-Ray players are coming with 2 HDMI outputs. That way you can run one HDMI cable to the receiver for surround sound, and one straight to the TV for 3D video. Another question would be is how does the Mits converter output the signal. Is the checkerboard format full 1920x1080 to each eye? If so they it would still require an HDMI 1.4 AV receiver if you hooked the converter up before the AV receiver. If it is able to downconvert the 3D signal to 960x1080 or 1920x540 then I suppose it might be able to work with older AV receivers, but I'm not sure if this is the case.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Panasonic's new 3D Blu-ray Players has two HDMI outputs because of the fact that most HDMI 1.3 A/V Receivers can not pass a 3D signal. One HDMI output can be hooked up directly to your 3D HDTV for the video and the other HDMI output can be set to audio only so that you can enjoy high resolution audio from your legacy HDMI 1.3 A/V Receiver. Of course Panasonic also gave its 3D Blu-ray players the ability to output a 3D Checkerboard Signal so that 3D ready DLP HDTVs can produce 3D video.

I could bury my head in the sand like some people but I just communicate the facts that I know rather than chastising people for their lack of knowledge.

Here is a post on the 3D Panasonic Blu-ray Players:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830

Bottom line is that the Mitsubishi 3D Checkerboard Converter may not work with HDMI 1.3 A/V Receivers because of Mitsubishi's recent decision to make the converter incompatible with anything but Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTVs.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> Is the checkerboard format full 1920x1080 to each eye?


No, it's 960x540 to each eye.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

The way I understand it, the recent decision wouldn't have changed the fact anyway. If the Mits converter doesn't downscale the 3D signal the bandwidth would have been too much for most HDMI 1.3 receivers anyway. 1920x1080 for each eye takes up too much bandwidth whether it is sent out as top/bottom, side/side, or checkerboard.

Edit/

Wow Jeremy I didn't realize that. The checkerboard format cuts the resolution by 1/4, that sucks. I guess in that case theoretically an HDMI 1.3 receiver would be able to pass through the info as long as the Mits converter is smart enough to look past the AV receiver/HDMI switch to the display at the end of the HDMI chain and verify the display is a Mits DLP.

However this would mean you would need multiple Mits converters. One for the DirecTV receiver, one for the Blu-Ray player, etc.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> 1920x1080 for each eye takes up too much bandwidth whether it is sent out as top/bottom, side/side, or checkerboard.


Full 1080p to each eye isn't sent out in any of those formats. They all require the resolution to be reduced because they're transmitting both eyes in a single 1080p frame. Full 1080p is only possible with frame packing, which transmits each eye as a separate, full frame.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

Gotcha, I wasn't 100% sure on that.

It is still true that this can only be done with HDMI 1.4 compliant hardware though correct? And it appears that some HDMI 1.3 manufacturers are able to upgrade their exiting chips to gain HDMI 1.4 compliance (like the Harmon Kardon AV Receivers).

I'm wondering/hoping Denon might be able to do this for my 3808, but I'm not counting on it. I don't plan to upgrade to a 3D TV for a while though anyway, since I'm hoping that I will eventually be able to buy a front projector that uses polarized technology.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> It is still true that this can only be done with HDMI 1.4 compliant hardware though correct?


Yes, frame packing requires 1.4. The other frame-compatible methods don't.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> The way I understand it, the recent decision wouldn't have changed the fact anyway. If the Mits converter doesn't downscale the 3D signal the bandwidth would have been too much for most HDMI 1.3 receivers anyway. 1920x1080 for each eye takes up too much bandwidth whether it is sent out as top/bottom, side/side, or checkerboard.
> 
> Edit/
> 
> ...


The recent decision may impact users of the Mitsubishi Converter who use HDMI 1.3 A/V receivers in the following manner. Lets suppose you have two 3D video sources (DirecTv and Blu-ray). You buy an HDMI 1.4 video switch because the converter only has one HDMI input / output. You then hook up the converter to your HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver because you know that your HDMI 1.3 Receiver will pass the 3D Checkerboard Format. However, it doesn't work and why doesn't it work. It doesn't work because it will not work with the switch or A/V Reciever since Mitsubishi told it to only work with Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTVs.

Now some information on the 3D Checkerboard Format. I know that the signal is only half the resolution of the original video source but if you will read reviews of those who have hooked up their 3D ready DLPs to the Panasonic 3D Blu-ray players then you will read that they have reported that the 3D Checkerboard Image is stunning. Much like cameras, there is a lot more to a great picture than just pixels. Some posters have preferred the 3D picture of the DLP HDTVs to that of some of the newer 3D HDTVs.

Some of us who are not rich can not afford to replace our A/V gear every year.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

Beerstalker said:


> Wow Jeremy I didn't realize that. The checkerboard format cuts the resolution by 1/4, that sucks.


Not 1/4, it's cuts it in half. But once the video is in motion, you really can't tell the difference. It's almost like interlaced video.

I've had several people watched 1080p 3D on my display, which uses the checkerboard method, and they think it looks great. The picture is still nice and crisp, and the added depth is amazing.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Full 1080p is only possible with frame packing, which transmits each eye as a separate, full frame.


Yes, you're correct that frame packing is required for full 1080p 3D.

To further explain frame packing, it's very similar to top/bottom, but the vertical resolution is doubled, to get two full 1080p separate images into a single frame.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

taz291819 said:


> Not 1/4, it's cuts it in half. But once the video is in motion, you really can't tell the difference. It's almost like interlaced video.


There probably is an effect like interlacing, since we can see better with two eyes than with one. That is, considering only resolution per eye probably underestimates the resolution. This came up in an AVSforum discussion of measuring 3D resolution. For research on this, google "binocular visual acuity".


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

taz291819 said:


> Not 1/4, it's cuts it in half. But once the video is in motion, you really can't tell the difference. It's almost like interlaced video.
> 
> I've had several people watched 1080p 3D on my display, which uses the checkerboard method, and they think it looks great. The picture is still nice and crisp, and the added depth is amazing.


Thanks for your post. My understanding from others such as yourself is that the 3D Checkerboard Image on a good 3D ready DLP HDTV is stunning. I have read posts of people who compared the 3D picture from a DLP (Checkerboard) and a newer 3D HDTV (frame packing) and preferred the image from the DLP. Hopefully someone will come out with a converter so I can enjoy 3D on my Samsung 61 inch DLP LED HDTV. What is your set up?


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I have read posts of people who compared the 3D picture from a DLP (Checkerboard) and a newer 3D HDTV (frame packing) and preferred the image from the DLP.


A good DLP still beats an average LCD in picture quality, so that isn't surprising. Thinness won the war versus quality.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

geaux tigers said:


> The recent decision may impact users of the Mitsubishi Converter who use HDMI 1.3 A/V receivers in the following manner. Lets suppose you have two 3D video sources (DirecTv and Blu-ray). You buy an HDMI 1.4 video switch because the converter only has one HDMI input / output. You then hook up the converter to your HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver because you know that your HDMI 1.3 Receiver will pass the 3D Checkerboard Format. However, it doesn't work and why doesn't it work. It doesn't work because it will not work with the switch or A/V Reciever since Mitsubishi told it to only work with Mitsubishi 3D ready DLP HDTVs.


This shouldn't happen if Mitsubishi is smart. The converter should be able to look past the switch and the receiver for the device that labels itself as the display. As long as the display device says that it is a Mitsubishi DLP the converter should work no matter what is in between the two (assuming those devices properly pass along all of the information).

If the Mits converter isn't that smart then shame on them. If your other components don't properly pass on the information then I guess you will need to complain to them. Every device in the HDMI chain is supposed to be able to talk to each other to verify what they are and if the are HDCP compliant as far as I understand.

I realize everyone can't afford to upgrade everything all the time. I personally am still using a Hitachi 65F710 (a 4 year old 65" CRT rear projection TV), a PS3, and a Denon 3808 for my theater. Not to mention my CD jukebox, VHS, DVD player, HD-DVD player, and speakers which are even older (especially my speakers which are probably 10+years old).

But if you are insistent on upgrading to the latest tech you have to realize you may have to upgrade more components than you want to, and some of those components may be obsolete very quickly.


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jeremy W said:


> A good DLP still beats an average LCD in picture quality, so that isn't surprising. Thinness won the war versus quality.


Does this mean that I'll get a decent 3D image, assuming a good 3D source? Even though the source may not be checkerboard, but the adapter will do some sort of conversion?

Like for example a PS3 Slim (after the firmware is updated to include 3D) connected to my Mitsubishi 60737 along with the Mitsubishi 3D adapter?

I like the sound of all of this!


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Athlon646464 said:


> Does this mean that I'll get a decent 3D image, assuming a good 3D source? Even though the source may not be checkerboard, but the adapter will do some sort of conversion?
> 
> Like for example a PS3 Slim (after the firmware is updated to include 3D) connected to my Mitsubishi 60737 along with the Mitsubishi 3D adapter?
> 
> I like the sound of all of this!


You should get a good picture from everything that I understand. However, there is some concern that Mitsubishi's recent decision to block other devices from using their converter by using the EDID data could interfere with your ability to hook the device up to an A/V Receiver. Of course this is all speculation until the Mitsubishi Converter arrives in the wild.

Unfortunately, I have a Samsung 3D ready DLP and am trying to figure out my best options to enable my HDTV to display 3D.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

I hate to burst your bubble Geaux Tigers but during my DECA install today the Supervisor here showed me an email he received saying the 3D would be "Nano3D" or "N3D", in cooperation with Panasonic, and not checkerboard. 

I guess my Samsung will never display 3D...


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

RunnerFL said:


> I hate to burst your bubble Geaux Tigers but during my DECA install today the Supervisor here showed me an email he received saying the 3D would be "Nano3D" or "N3D", in cooperation with Panasonic, and not checkerboard.
> 
> I guess my Samsung will never display 3D...


If DirecTvs equipment can not output a 3D Checkerboard Converter then hopefully DirecTv as a major provider of television content will encourage the CEM to come up with a solution so they can sell more 3D programming.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

When is the first 3D broadcast by DirecTv set to begin?


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## Athlon646464 (Feb 23, 2007)

geaux tigers said:


> When is the first 3D broadcast by DirecTv set to begin?


Sometime in June, I believe.  

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174869&highlight=launch+in+june


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Athlon646464 said:


> Sometime in June, I believe.
> 
> http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=174869&highlight=launch+in+june


Thanks


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## turls (Jul 8, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> The poll shouldn't even exist, because it's about as relevant as a poll asking "Should the DirecTV 3D update turn non-3DTVs into 3DTVs?"


Yeah, that's why I'm getting excellent 3D from my Samsung LED DLP using Nvidia 3D Vision, because my TV isn't "3D". This poll isn't a joke, the results so far are. Why vote against this? People that haven't seen how great 3D looks on a TV that blows away the refresh rate of any LCD, that's who, I guess.

And I wonder how many votes would change now that that Mits is taking their ball and going home with their stupid EDID enforcement?

I mean, DirecTV receivers still support component and in many cases composite, I don't see why this is any different. You support the equipment your customer has unless there is a good reason not to. If it truly isn't possible because of hardware then I think DirecTV owes their customers with DLP's that explanation. In that case, If DirecTV is truly the leader they claim to be they should at least explore a 3rd party option for making this work. I would pay for it obviously.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

turls said:


> Yeah, that's why I'm getting excellent 3D from my Samsung LED DLP using Nvidia 3D Vision, because my TV isn't "3D".


I never said your TV wasn't 3D. My example of an irrelevant question was not meant to say that 3D DLPs weren't 3DTVs.


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## Beerstalker (Feb 9, 2009)

He said the poll shouldn't exist because it isn't going to happen. The DirecTV hardware can't be changed to ouput in the checkerboard format. That would require a new receiver design with different chips. We can pretty much garantee that they aren't going to design a whole new receiver line-up just for some older TVs that are using a format that is now becoming obsolete.

They are able to send out an update for the existing receivers that will make them work with TVs that are coming out now. This requires no new hardware from them, that is why they are embracing this.

Eventually if 3D really does take off we might see D* come up with a new receiver design that incorporates HDMI1.4 changes so it can do 3D in full 1080 resolution to each eye. But I wouldn't expect this any time soon as it will take up a lot more bandwidth for each channel which they can't really spare at this time.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Beerstalker said:


> He said the poll shouldn't exist because it isn't going to happen. The DirecTV hardware can't be changed to ouput in the checkerboard format. That would require a new receiver design with different chips. We can pretty much garantee that they aren't going to design a whole new receiver line-up just for some older TVs that are using a format that is now becoming obsolete.
> 
> They are able to send out an update for the existing receivers that will make them work with TVs that are coming out now. This requires no new hardware from them, that is why they are embracing this.
> 
> Eventually if 3D really does take off we might see D* come up with a new receiver design that incorporates HDMI1.4 changes so it can do 3D in full 1080 resolution to each eye. But I wouldn't expect this any time soon as it will take up a lot more bandwidth for each channel which they can't really spare at this time.


Never hurts to ask as otherwise you get the status quo.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Never hurts to ask as otherwise you get the status quo.


True, it never hurts to ask. But when you ask, and then refuse to believe the answer, it starts to hurt.


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## smiddy (Apr 5, 2006)

No, time to move forward (pun intended).


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

The only one to really blame for this is the HDMI committee. If they would have included "checkerboard" as a mandatory format, this whole dilemma could have been moot. Checkerboard has the same resolution as SbS, and all legacy 3D-Ready displays support checkerboard.

So, if it were a mandatory format, Directv (and Comcast, Dish, etc.) could have simply used this format. All legacy 3D-Ready displays would have worked without a converter, and all new 3D-Ready displays would have done the conversion internally.

Basically, in the end, you can thank the HDMI Forum for these headaches. And honestly, there was no reason at all for it not to be included. I'm still surprised TI, Samsung, and Mitsubishi didn't put up a fuss about this.


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

I want to also state that simply converting to the checkerboard method isn't the only thing for legacy 3D-Ready displays, they also need it in 1080p. These displays won't accept a 720p checkerboard signal. Nor will they accept a 1080p24 signal for 3D. 

It has to be 1080p60. There is a very good possibility that these STBs simply can't do that.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

taz291819 said:


> So, if it were a mandatory format, Directv (and Comcast, Dish, etc.) could have simply used this format.


Not on any of their current STBs.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

If DirecTv, Dish, Cox, Comcast, ESPN, and etc. put pressure on the 3D ready HDTV manufacturers (Samsung) or other CE manufacturers to come out with a reasonably priced 3D Checkerboard Converter then DirecTv and the others would be helping to foster a solution and grow the 3D base

I would accept this as an acceptable solution. However, given DirecTvs current record of abandoning the HR20 for the 3D update gives me little hope of this happening. 

Besides if people like myself didn't ask for the impossible then it wouldn't give certain rude know it alls who frequent this forum an opportunity to try to show their superiority.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Besides if people like myself didn't ask for the impossible then it wouldn't give certain rude know it alls who frequent this forum an opportunity to try to show their superiority.


My first response in this thread wasn't condescending or rude in any way. It carefully explained why it's not possible for DirecTV STBs to output 3D. You wouldn't accept this response, so things got a little less civil. Your fault.

There are people on this forum who know more than you do about this stuff, and I'm one of them. How's that for rude?


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## taz291819 (Oct 19, 2006)

Jeremy W said:


> Not on any of their current STBs.


I don't mean conversion in real-time, I meant encode the checkerboard signal. Though I'm not sure if that's even possible.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

taz291819 said:


> I don't mean conversion in real-time, I meant encode the checkerboard signal. Though I'm not sure if that's even possible.


Yeah, I don't think checkerboard is a viable broadcast format. Compression would destroy it.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

I want to thank most of the posters for their posts regarding this issue. It appears from those in the know or those who claim to be in the know that the HR20 can not convert the 3D Checkerboard Format. Some people gave facts, specifications, and other helpful information. Others gave statements that offered very little to no explanation. I have never pretended to know everything as otherwise we would not have a need to have forums such as this. It is interesting that some posters must have realized they were being rude or condescending due to their responses since they were never called out by name. Rather than lower myself to others low standards I will stop there.

I do believe that DirecTv and others have a vested interest in encouraging the CE to make universal 3D Checkerboard Converters for 3D ready DLP HDTVs. If DirecTv does this then I believe they will be supporting the 3D Checkerboard Format their vested interests and their customers. Therefore, this is not a dead issue in my opinion.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I do believe that DirecTv and others have a vested interest in encouraging the CE to make universal 3D Checkerboard Converters for 3D ready DLP HDTVs. If DirecTv does this then I believe they will be supporting the 3D Checkerboard Format their vested interests and their customers. Therefore, this is not a dead issue in my opinion.


Start a new thread to advocate this, then. You'll actually be asking for something that is technically possible.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Jeremy W said:


> Start a new thread to advocate this, then. You'll actually be asking for something that is technically possible.


I believe DirecTv and others are smart enough to read between the lines. DirecTv customers that own a 3D ready DLP HDTV want to be able to watch 3D on their HDTV and most don't care what type of solution is being offered as long as the solution is reasonable and economical.

I like new technology but the 3D CE manufacturers may have really shot themselves in the foot. I read DirecTv's press conference and now most A/V Receivers will not be compatible with their 3D broadcast. I am not an engineer or a software programmer but the current 3D specifications exclusion of legacy equipment such as A/V Receivers may spell doom for the 3D format.


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I believe DirecTv and others are smart enough to read between the lines. DirecTv customers that own a 3D ready DLP HDTV want to be able to watch 3D on their HDTV and most don't care what type of solution is being offered as long as the solution is reasonable and economical.
> 
> I like new technology but the 3D CE manufacturers may have really shot themselves in the foot. I read DirecTv's press conference and now most A/V Receivers will not be compatible with their 3D broadcast. I am not an engineer or a software programmer but the current 3D specifications exclusion of legacy equipment such as A/V Receivers may spell doom for the 3D format.


We understand that you are upset by the lack of support, but you are whipping a dead horse... this is the risk of adopting new technology early especially when NO NATIONAL STANDARD FOR 3D HAS EVEN NOW BEEN ESTABLISHED. Color TV, HDTV and even stereo TV was tested nationally by governing bodies and a set of standards was reported out for everyone to follow. This has not been done for 3D.

Even now, I wouldn't want to make book on 3D becoming any kind of defacto standard, as we are a long way from proving that A.)people will be willing to purchase supporting hardware, B.) will tolerate having to wear the glasses and C.) That any of it will be practical in the long haul.

I would say the odds are real long. Add to that the fact that the theaters are about to engage in some very risky behavior beginning this weekend.. they are planning to up 3D movie ticket prices to as high as $17. Percentage of increase will vary around the country but ALL of the major chains have 3D increase planned for the holiday.

I would say that the OP's question has been asked and answered. DirecTV has made it clear what their plans are.


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## GregLee (Dec 28, 2005)

LarryFlowers said:


> NO NATIONAL STANDARD FOR 3D HAS EVEN NOW BEEN ESTABLISHED.


That's a little broad. HDMI 1.4a is a national standard for 3D, though it does not cover glasses and does not include checkerboard as an obligatory format.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

DIRECTV has pretty much said at this point they they don't see a situation where they will support Checkerboard format. It was clearly a forward looking statement and maybe there is a sliver of a chance that it would change, but basically .. Checkerboard format isn't on the roadmap, nor the radar of DIRECTV. I'd say it's just never gonna happen.


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## LarryFlowers (Sep 22, 2006)

GregLee said:


> That's a little broad. HDMI 1.4a is a national standard for 3D, though it does not cover glasses and does not include checkerboard as an obligatory format.


There is a process that has always been used in the US for anything that fundamentally changes the way tv works.

It traces all the way back to the days of B&W tv.

The standards for 3D are a real mess, with over 12 competing organizations trying to establish the "Standard".


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> I would accept this as an acceptable solution. However, given DirecTvs current record of abandoning the HR20 for the 3D update gives me little hope of this happening.


They aren't abandoning the HR20 at all. It just won't work for 3D broadcasts.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

LarryFlowers said:


> There is a process that has always been used in the US for anything that fundamentally changes the way tv works.


Yes, when you're talking about broadcast TV. There is no way to broadcast 3D in a backwards-compatible manner, so there is no broadcast 3D. Therefore there have been no changes to the ATSC standards for 3D. The 3D standards have made their way into the HDMI specifications, where they belong.


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> They aren't abandoning the HR20 at all.


They're abandoning it a little bit.


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## geaux tigers (Nov 11, 2005)

Would the Gefen HDMI Detective be able to trick the Mitsubishi 3D Checkerboard Converter into working with a Samsung 3D ready DLP HDTV? Here is a link to the Gefen HDMI Detective:

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=8005


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## Jeremy W (Jun 19, 2006)

geaux tigers said:


> Would the Gefen HDMI Detective be able to trick the Mitsubishi 3D Checkerboard Converter into working with a Samsung 3D ready DLP HDTV?


I don't see why not. The only caveat is that you'd need access to a proper Mitsubishi TV.


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