# I always back the wrong horse!



## emathis (Mar 19, 2003)

I am trying to decide if I should jump the E* ship and move to D* as my HD provider. My problem is that I always seem to pick the losers. Not only was I a big fan of Betamax and Laserdisc, currently I own the top of the line HD-DVD player. It goes without saying that I voted for Gore and Kerry in the last two elections. I just feel no matter which provider I choose they will be the big loser in this HD contest.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

Wind_River said:


> First.....you should *not *watch satellite on a horse. Use a television set.


Certainly not the back of a horse. 

If there are HD channels on Dish that you watch on a regular basis that are not available on Directv then you shouldn't make the switch. If there are channels on Directv that you really want that are not on Dish then you should make the switch. Only you can make that decision though. Personally, I could never make the switch until Directv starts carrying Rave. Nothing that Directv carries at the moment could make up for the loss of that one channel.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

Richard King said:


> ...Personally, I could never make the switch until Directv starts carrying Rave.
> Nothing that Directv carries at the moment could make up for the loss of that
> one channel.


Well said, Richard.

I feel the same about HDNet. I still follow news of their programming and events
even tho' I lost both HDNet channels when Comcast took over from Adelphia.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

Couldn't we say you've already picked the loser in the HD game at this point? So, now it's safe to go to D*:lol:


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2007)

Nick said:


> Well said, Richard.
> 
> I feel the same about HDNet. I still follow news of their programming and events
> even tho' I lost both HDNet channels when Comcast took over from Adelphia.


I recall that in one of your posts a few months ago you said Comcast was promising to add the HDNet channels. What's preventing them from adding those channels?


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## tomcrown1 (Jan 16, 2006)

Now i know whom to blame for the 49ers being a bad football team.


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## SDizzle (Jan 1, 2007)

tomcrown1 said:


> Now i know whom to blame for the 49ers being a bad football team.


How do you know that the OP likes the 49ers??:lol: :lol:


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

So it was you who was rooting for the Rockies!!! 

I had a shiny new Betamax and bought a bunch of $80.00 movies in the early 80's. I also had the Dishplayer and a Dish 6000 before I saw the DirecTV light.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

Richard King said:


> If there are HD channels on Dish that you watch on a regular basis that are not available on Directv then you shouldn't make the switch.


I'd be more specific:

Unless the programs that you want to watch are in HD on the other provider, don't bother switching.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

You can spin the original poster's comments too.

He backed betamax and Laserdisc back in the day... and arguably those were both superior products in their time.  VHS beat out betamax, but was not generally perceived to be the best quality of video. In fact is was partially due to longer record time with optional lower picture quality that VHS got some market.

Laserdisc was superior quality to VHS... but it was a little cumbersome (kinda like an LP album) and didn't stick around long enough for people to see what it might have become.

So... he may be backing the wrong horse in terms of who eventually wins... but he seems to have been backing the better quality at the time... it's just that inferior products ended up winning the day.

In our society the majority tends to rule... but that doesn't mean they are always right!


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

HDMe said:


> Laserdisc was superior quality to VHS... but it was a little cumbersome (kinda like an LP album) and didn't stick around long enough for people to see what it might have become.


There was no race between Laserdisc and VHS. Laserdisc was a playback only system and VHS was primarily a recording system. The race was between Laserdisc and RCA SelectaVision CED videodisc.... a race which Laserdisc won, and up until DVDs came along *a decade and a half later,* Laserdisc was "the standard" among videophiles for high quality home video playback.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

Well....
If we are going to use the VHS vs Beta Max, history, the 1st provider that carries the Adult Channels in HD will win. It was the Adult Entertainment industry's, that pushed VHS over Beta when they standardized on VHS over Beta.

Right now, Myself I am in limbo, waiting to see what E* is going to do by Feburary, and if D* lowers the price to move over. Still leaning towards Staying with E*, just because of Hardware features, but there are some Channels I really want that D* has by the end of the year. Most I have already, I could careless about the "numbers", as its the Actual channels I will watch that counts. 

I can understand all the excitment the D* people are having right now, everytime my Brother-in-law calls to tell me to watch something, on a channel I have had for over a year and some channels almost 2 years now, makes me feel bad that He has had to wait all this time to finally enjoy his HD TV the way its supposed to be seen. He does have me Drooling over SciFi and Speed, and FX.


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## gintzj (Jan 4, 2007)

emathis said:


> I am trying to decide if I should jump the E* ship and move to D* as my HD provider. My problem is that I always seem to pick the losers. Not only was I a big fan of Betamax and Laserdisc, currently I own the top of the line HD-DVD player. It goes without saying that I voted for Gore and Kerry in the last two elections. I just feel no matter which provider I choose they will be the big loser in this HD contest.


just remember you good man and you love dish


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## Chris Nick (Jul 25, 2006)

emathis said:


> I am trying to decide if I should jump the E* ship and move to D* as my HD provider. My problem is that I always seem to pick the losers. Not only was I a big fan of Betamax and Laserdisc, currently I own the top of the line HD-DVD player..


Please sell your HD DVD and buy blu ray, as I'd like to keep my HD DVD player and I need your help for a few more of the studios to join Universal and Paramount in HD DVD exclusivity. OH could you also say a few words for Disney to go neutral?

Don't worry-- the D* vs E* debate isn't something that one side will win. I think that E* may be in a temporary freeze situation until they find out what is happening with the AT&T buyout offer. Stands to reason, that if they have a current stock valuation based on a particular mix of sats, other broadcast equipment, programming, and cash and other assets, that they may want to keep everything status quo in order to get their target price, or at least see if AT&T is serious in the negotiation.

I predict that there will be a flood of new HD programming once the buyout rumors are either put to rest or the basic terms of the transaction are agreed upon and finalized. Until the people negotiating for new programming know who their bosses are going to be over the next year or so, they will tend to be conservative on spending money on programming.

I'm not sure what I think of a possible AT&T buyout. Hard to say if it would be good or bad until probably 6 month after it is done. But it they have more resources to devote to HD programming and signal quality, then it would be good.


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## davidxlai (Jan 21, 2006)

I guess you learned your lesson. HD-DVD is not the wrong bet based on recent developments. Toshiba has been selling them like hot cakes for $99 a pop.


emathis said:


> I am trying to decide if I should jump the E* ship and move to D* as my HD provider. My problem is that I always seem to pick the losers. Not only was I a big fan of Betamax and Laserdisc, currently I own the top of the line HD-DVD player. It goes without saying that I voted for Gore and Kerry in the last two elections. I just feel no matter which provider I choose they will be the big loser in this HD contest.


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## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

Don't worry, I think HD-DVD is looking pretty good right now. I'm about to jump in that camp this year. 

Now if I can just decide to go with E* or D*... D* has made a pretty big splash, but I think going forward it's going to be pretty close from now on (NFLST not withstanding.) I think both will be viable for a long time.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

qsoundrich said:


> Don't worry, I think HD-DVD is looking pretty good right now. I'm about to jump in that camp this year.
> 
> Now if I can just decide to go with E* or D*... D* has made a pretty big splash, but I think going forward it's going to be pretty close from now on (NFLST not withstanding.) I think both will be viable for a long time.


90,000 HD-DVD players sold in one weekend...I'd say HD is doing fine...and since Sony can't drop the price that low...and is having issues with the PS3...HD-DVD is safe for quite a while.

D* made a huge splash and the cable companies are following suit, with a lot of them now adding nationals like CNN HD and TWC HD...sure it's only a few more HD channels, but it's channels that we still don't have at E*. Hopefully E* will get in gear soon...after all, on the website...they are STILL the HD leader:lol:


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## bobukcat (Dec 20, 2005)

texaswolf said:


> and is having issues with the PS3...


What kind of problems?? I have an itchy credit card finger and have been seriously tempted by the new $399 40 GB with Spidey 3 movie offering!!


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## denness544 (Jan 14, 2006)

bobukcat said:


> What kind of problems?? I have an itchy credit card finger and have been seriously tempted by the new $399 40 GB with Spidey 3 movie offering!!


I own a PS3 and I don't know of any problems that would keep you from buying one. Go ahead and scratch that itch.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

bobukcat said:


> What kind of problems?? I have an itchy credit card finger and have been seriously tempted by the new $399 40 GB with Spidey 3 movie offering!!


Apparently a bunch of people had playback issues when they released the firmware upgrade...since Slysoft has reported that they have cracked Blue Rays BD+ security...Fox and Sony have been scrambling to get new protection...causing Fox movies to not play in all BR players...Sony also just released that they will be dropping stand alone BR players to $399 around Christmas...but said they doubt they will go lower...and HD-DVD just set the price bar VERY low...Sony won't be able to touch it.

That all said...don't let it stop you from buying one...I have an HD_DVD player...and I still plan on getting a PS3 for gameplay...the BR player is an added bonus...but just like the PS2, i will wait until Sony drops prices...if they do. I was mostly talking about the long run of the format war

Scratch away


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## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

I heard that they have done a survey and only 40% of PS-3 owners even realized that the machine can play Blu-Ray discs. It even comes with a movie! (Talladega Nights) 
There are roughly 6 million PS-3s out there and something like 150,000 standalone players, so it will take a while for HD-DVD to catch up, but at $100 a player how can you resist?


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

An interesting tidbit:

In a not-so-surprising turn, standalone HD DVD players have regained their lead on Blu-ray sales in September, giving the overall year-to-date figures (in which HD DVD has always been ahead) as 53% HD DVD, 44% Blu-ray, and 3% dual-format. Although this may give you the impression that HD DVD is in the lead, the numbers don't include the PS3, which dwarfs sales of standalone HD DVD and Blu-ray players by quite a large margin (based on June figures). 

Things are also interestingly murky over on Netflix. When looking at their published numbers, Blu-ray has about twice as many people looking at the category, but only about 1/3 as many choosing it as their preference. We're not sure exactly what's going on, but our theory is that PS3 owners who got a Blu-ray player as part of the bargain are only marginally interested in its features, which explains the increased overall views. HD DVD owners, who either bought a standalone player or an add-on for the 360, knew what they were getting into, and thus have a higher preference for the format.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

The significant thing right now really is...

In order to watch HD DVD, you either have to buy a standalone HD DVD player OR buy an add-on (like the Xbox 360 HD DVD accessory)... so conversely anyone who buys an HD DVD player is no doubt buying and renting HD DVD movies.

However... when you buy a PS3 you also get a Blu Ray player included... but not everyone buying PS3 is buying for movies. I know I never played a movie in my PS2, I bought a DVD player standalone for movies back then... so without asking every PS3 owner, there is really no way of knowing how many PS3s are being used for movies.

That causes the murky waters in terms of trying to count Blu Ray "players" vs HD DVD "players" in the market. Only thing that they can count for sure are total sales of movies in both formats as well as rentals of those movies.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

HDMe said:


> The significant thing right now really is...
> 
> In order to watch HD DVD, you either have to buy a standalone HD DVD player OR buy an add-on (like the Xbox 360 HD DVD accessory)... so conversely anyone who buys an HD DVD player is no doubt buying and renting HD DVD movies.
> 
> ...





> An interesting tidbit:
> 
> In a not-so-surprising turn, standalone HD DVD players have regained their lead on Blu-ray sales in September, giving the overall year-to-date figures (in which HD DVD has always been ahead) as 53% HD DVD, 44% Blu-ray, and 3% dual-format. Although this may give you the impression that HD DVD is in the lead, the numbers don't include the PS3, which dwarfs sales of standalone HD DVD and Blu-ray players by quite a large margin (based on June figures).
> 
> Things are also interestingly murky over on Netflix. When looking at their published numbers, Blu-ray has about twice as many people looking at the category, but only about 1/3 as many choosing it as their preference. We're not sure exactly what's going on, but our theory is that PS3 owners who got a Blu-ray player as part of the bargain are only marginally interested in its features, which explains the increased overall views. HD DVD owners, who either bought a standalone player or an add-on for the 360, knew what they were getting into, and thus have a higher preference for the format.


I absolutely agree with both of you...had the BR player on the PS3 been and add on like the 360 has...you would have more truth...but the numbers are shady when it's included


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

Well, I’ll make a little prediction  

For the holiday season, standalone HD players will outsell standalone BD players by at least 3:1.

Why? A couple of factors will be in play. The main factor is the price. At less then $100 compared to $300 for a BD, the common consumer that wants to buy a hi-def player will almost always go with the lower price.

Almost as important is that this holiday season the expendable money for consumers will be lower then it has been in years. That will drive a large number of potential BD buyers into the HD market because of the price difference.

Third, the “exclusive” titles for each format will actually drive consumers to HD. What you say? Sure, a consumer goes in to buy a hi-def player and finds out that not all movies are available in each format. But they REALLY want a hi-def player… so why spend big bucks on a format that may not be around in a year or two… just buy the cheapest now while they wait out the format war.

In the end, both formats will survive and in a couple of years we’ll have what we have now in regular DVDs, almost all players will play both formats.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

HobbyTalk said:


> Well, I'll make a little prediction
> 
> For the holiday season, standalone HD players will outsell standalone BD players by at least 3:1.
> 
> ...


exactly. also the folks who have ore than one HDTV will be able to buy a couple of HD players for the price of one Blue Ray...especially if Sony's boss doesn't see them dropping below the $399 mark....even at Christmas.


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## qsoundrich (Nov 7, 2007)

Speaking of another format war... does Netflix promote HD-DVD more than Blockbuster? I've been in the Blockbuster camp for a while now, but I could switch to Netflix if they have more HD-DVD titles.


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## HobbyTalk (Jul 14, 2007)

I have Netflix. They are an equal opportunity provider.... as far as I can tell, they have every disk available in both formats.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

> Speaking of another format war... does Netflix promote HD-DVD more than Blockbuster? I've been in the Blockbuster camp for a while now, but I could switch to Netflix if they have more HD-DVD titles.





HobbyTalk said:


> I have Netflix. They are an equal opportunity provider.... as far as I can tell, they have every disk available in both formats.


I've had both, and blockbuster (when i had it) was hard to find HD stuff...you had to go under "other", and collections or something...and you had to scroll to find HD where as BR was closer up on the list..Blockbuster stores themselves have gone strictly Blue Ray...as has Target. Which is a horrible marketing decision IMO.

Netflix has them both very easy to find....and would be the one I would go with again.

I left blockbuster online when they did that, also when we got the external for the 622...now a majority of movies i record off the HD channels...but the "good HD quality" ones I go and rent or buy.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

It makes little sense to base your decision on the speculation of a buyout of E*. There is no hard evidence that there is any buyout even being discussed. What I found on the web is it is just total speculation that it is other than total guess work. So stay or go on if you beleive that it is better to go over to D*. I pretty sure I will be staying for a few reasons. 1 RAVE, 2 better DVR (record 3 things at once & better application of the ext storage), & 3 E will get all of these new channels after they get more bandwidth. So then we will have all the channels we have now plus all the one's that D* has.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

whatchel1 said:


> It makes little sense to base your decision on the speculation of a buyout of E*. There is no hard evidence that there is any buyout even being discussed. What I found on the web is it is just total speculation that it is other than total guess work. So stay or go on if you beleive that it is better to go over to D*. I pretty sure I will be staying for a few reasons. 1 RAVE, 2 better DVR (record 3 things at once & better application of the ext storage), & 3 E will get all of these new channels after they get more bandwidth. So then we will have all the channels we have now plus all the one's that D* has.


wrong thread...maybe?


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

texaswolf said:


> wrong thread...maybe?


The OP started out talking about did he make the wrong decision part of that reason was due to the spec of the sale of E* to A.T. & T.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

whatchel1 said:


> The OP started out talking about did he make the wrong decision part of that reason was due to the spec of the sale of E* to A.T. & T.


AHHH...ok...my apologies.


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## emathis (Mar 19, 2003)

whatchel1 said:


> The OP started out talking about did he make the wrong decision part of that reason was due to the spec of the sale of E* to A.T. & T.


I'm the OP and I didn't mention anything about a.t.&t


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## alsays (Aug 12, 2005)

I'm sticking with Dish for a while...I'm sure they will add many of the HD channels that Direct now has...though I'm still tempted. In regards to the HD vs BluRay...I purchased the Play Station 3 because it had the BluRay included...why pay the same price for a stand alone when you can get a gaming system included. Do I play the Playstation...no. I have one game and it's for my nephew when he visits...but it's a much better deal to buy the Playstation rather than a stand alone...in fact why even bother with buying the standalone? Several of my friends have done the same thing. Even if the supposed 40% of play station owners don't use their BluRay for movies the 60% that do still way outpaces HD DVD in this format war. Thus BluRay has and is still way ahead HDDVD in Disc purchases. HD DVD has to do something to stay in the game but I doubt they can keep selling $99 machines and stay in business. They're being sold at a loss that's why this was only done for a few days. BluRay also has Disney exclusive. Paramount and Universal's catalog combined cannot compare to Disney plus non of Speilbergs films are exclusive to HD DVD while BluRay has exclusive distribution to Close Encounters. I'm pretty confident that BluRay has this one in the bag. How many thousands will buy new Playstations this Christmas? a heck of alot more than will be buying HDDVD players.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

I'd have to think you are in the minority of PS3 owners who only have one game, and primarily use it as a BR player. I went with th HD DVD because they had more movies that I wanted then BR did...however BR is adding some that I want now...plus I knew i would end up getting a PS3 down the road if $ony drops it's prices...since i have always had playstations...I didn't know BR had exclusive rights to Close Encounters...that sucks for me...for now.

I think HD will continue to sell more and more, especially if they leave them around the $199 price...since $ony wont drop below $399 on the stand alones or the PS3. People will go the cheaper route without knowledge of who has what movie studios....i think the dual format players will take over long before one side is able to claim victory...they are already coming out (at high prices), and when more companies make them, they will probably start dropping in price.

The smart studios are the ones releasing movies on both formats...they win all around because people on both sides can buy them. Thats why i think it's foolish for blockbuster and target to back one format...why not offer both and make more money?

and i think it's smart to stay with whatever company you are with for the time being....not like we'll miss any new shows with this stupid writers strike



alsays said:


> I'm sticking with Dish for a while...I'm sure they will add many of the HD channels that Direct now has...though I'm still tempted. In regards to the HD vs BluRay...I purchased the Play Station 3 because it had the BluRay included...why pay the same price for a stand alone when you can get a gaming system included. Do I play the Playstation...no. I have one game and it's for my nephew when he visits...but it's a much better deal to buy the Playstation rather than a stand alone...in fact why even bother with buying the standalone? Several of my friends have done the same thing. Even if the supposed 40% of play station owners don't use their BluRay for movies the 60% that do still way outpaces HD DVD in this format war. Thus BluRay has and is still way ahead HDDVD in Disc purchases. HD DVD has to do something to stay in the game but I doubt they can keep selling $99 machines and stay in business. They're being sold at a loss that's why this was only done for a few days. BluRay also has Disney exclusive. Paramount and Universal's catalog combined cannot compare to Disney plus non of Speilbergs films are exclusive to HD DVD while BluRay has exclusive distribution to Close Encounters. I'm pretty confident that BluRay has this one in the bag. How many thousands will buy new Playstations this Christmas? a heck of alot more than will be buying HDDVD players.


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## gintzj (Jan 4, 2007)

emathis said:


> I am trying to decide if I should jump the E* ship and move to D* as my HD provider. My problem is that I always seem to pick the losers. Not only was I a big fan of Betamax and Laserdisc, currently I own the top of the line HD-DVD player. It goes without saying that I voted for Gore and Kerry in the last two elections. I just feel no matter which provider I choose they will be the big loser in this HD contest.


you will always be with dish like me.. keep smiling. remember that i also sell dish.


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## Cocoatreat (May 16, 2006)

hmmmm........ so many turncoats.........d* added a few more hd channels..... finally catching up & surpassing e* for a bit.......so what!?? i like my hd.......i have been happy with it so far........however in 2009......everyone will be there.....it will all fall into play......... no one has any loyalty anymore.. time will tell...... it will all come out in the wash........& the wash is setting soon....... i dont see how so many people can jump ship every time someone adds a new channel or 2......its expensive to do that.. 
perhaps i am just someone who can be satisfied! e* is great if you possess a "working" receiver!


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

Cocoatreat said:


> hmmmm........ so many turncoats.........d* added a few more hd channels..... finally catching up & surpassing e* for a bit.......so what!?? i like my hd.......i have been happy with it so far........however in 2009......everyone will be there.....it will all fall into play......... no one has any loyalty anymore.. time will tell...... it will all come out in the wash........& the wash is setting soon....... i dont see how so many people can jump ship every time someone adds a new channel or 2......its expensive to do that..
> perhaps i am just someone who can be satisfied! e* is great if you possess a "working" receiver!


I think loyalty went out the window when the companies loyalty to customers went out the window. I have friends at E* that have been there 10 years, and don't get any "valued customer" deals when they wanted to upgrade...and they got the "leave if you want" routine from customer service...I have also seen the very same complaint from long term D* customers..and I can speak from experience of being a long term cable customer..thats why they lock you into a contract, so they don't have to worry about loyalty retention... I agree with you on the receiver. I think it will come down to individual preference on whether or not people want to wait for channels, and if they care about receiver quality...if they don't then they will switch...I personally don't hold shares of stock in either company...so people can switch all they want as far as i'm concerned....unless it ups my prices


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

alsays said:


> I'm sticking with Dish for a while...I'm sure they will add many of the HD channels that Direct now has...though I'm still tempted. In regards to the HD vs BluRay...I purchased the Play Station 3 because it had the BluRay included...why pay the same price for a stand alone when you can get a gaming system included. Do I play the Playstation...no. I have one game and it's for my nephew when he visits...but it's a much better deal to buy the Playstation rather than a stand alone...in fact why even bother with buying the standalone? Several of my friends have done the same thing. Even if the supposed 40% of play station owners don't use their BluRay for movies the 60% that do still way outpaces HD DVD in this format war. Thus BluRay has and is still way ahead HDDVD in Disc purchases. HD DVD has to do something to stay in the game but I doubt they can keep selling $99 machines and stay in business. They're being sold at a loss that's why this was only done for a few days. BluRay also has Disney exclusive. Paramount and Universal's catalog combined cannot compare to Disney plus non of Speilbergs films are exclusive to HD DVD while BluRay has exclusive distribution to Close Encounters. I'm pretty confident that BluRay has this one in the bag. How many thousands will buy new Playstations this Christmas? a heck of alot more than will be buying HDDVD players.


Playstation 3 sales have been lackluster at best,(and not looking any better) graphics just haven't been up to par, and overall the games aren't as good. What Sony needs to get off the ball and sell the updated versions, everything still out there and currently shipping is BD(Blu-Ray Device)1.0, its old technology and doesn't support alot of the cool features that people think BD should have, ie PiP Commentary, better higher Graphics, just for starters, almost 2 years since the launch of BD, they haven't upgraded them, and BD1.0 per sony is a INTERM Format, for BD.
DreamWorks and Paramont have already said they are dropping BD, and will not be releasing anymore or restocking the movies they have released because BD-J software, isn't working as promised, and is causing to many launch delays, and to that the fact that sony can't make enough of the BD due to failure rates, they are falling further behind in enhancements of a Interm product. Sony will drive this into the ground, and lose out again. Then again, some people will think of Sony as a high-end product, because of Mass-Advertising, not realizing Sony's are low to mid range products at best. HD-DVD has already advanced tech wise and will continue, the more players they put out the easier it is keep the price down, more players means better machines. BD from Sony can't get cheaper as the run rate is low and failure rate in production is high.


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

A really cool HD DVD release coming out in time for Xmas is 
'Battlestar Galactica - Season One'
Still upset that Boomer is not only a Girl, but a cylon to boot.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> A really cool HD DVD release coming out in time for Xmas is
> 'Battlestar Galactica - Season One'
> Still upset that Boomer is not only a Girl, but a cylon to boot.


Yeah...but a hot one none the less:eek2:


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

texaswolf said:


> Yeah...but a hot one none the less:eek2:


That is true, very True  
Just glad Starbuck is not as hot, I would have a real hard time with that one, the lady killer in the old days, now supersexy would be to much. The Cry's from around the world when we all saw Starbuck, STARBUCK'S a GIRL?!?!?!?!?!?! Say it ain't so. 
Sorry for getting off subject, so something on the subject, Sony lowers price of Playstation3 over summer and even with that, it couldn't out sell the Xbox360, and just nipped the WII(got to get one of them) for 2nd. Sony is all talk, lack of...... Personally if was anybody but Sony running the Show I might pull for BD, but Sony is the new IBM of the old days, WE ARE IN CONTROL, do it our way or no way, and we will trickle out the techlogy when we feel like it. Doomed IBM, and will Doom Sony.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> That is true, very True
> Just glad Starbuck is not as hot, I would have a real hard time with that one, the lady killer in the old days, now supersexy would be to much. The Cry's from around the world when we all saw Starbuck, STARBUCK'S a GIRL?!?!?!?!?!?! Say it ain't so.
> Sorry for getting off subject, so something on the subject, Sony lowers price of Playstation3 over summer and even with that, it couldn't out sell the Xbox360, and just nipped the WII(got to get one of them) for 2nd. Sony is all talk, lack of...... Personally if was anybody but Sony running the Show I might pull for BD, but Sony is the new IBM of the old days, WE ARE IN CONTROL, do it our way or no way, and we will trickle out the techlogy when we feel like it. Doomed IBM, and will Doom Sony.


I agree...$ony's downfall will be not lowering prices....as usual. rumor has it that early on the HD camp wanted to come out with one format, and $ony said no? The only reason I will own a BR will be when i buy a PS3...since i like to play it....when and if they lower the price more...because I am not paying that much for it.

oh yeah...Starbuck is hot in a "kick butt" kind of way...have you seen her in Bionic Woman?......niiice...lol


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

GrumpyBear said:


> Playstation 3 sales have been lackluster at best,(and not looking any better) graphics just haven't been up to par, and overall the games aren't as good. What Sony needs to get off the ball and sell the updated versions, everything still out there and currently shipping is BD(Blu-Ray Device)1.0, its old technology and doesn't support alot of the cool features that people think BD should have, ie PiP Commentary, better higher Graphics, just for starters, almost 2 years since the launch of BD, they haven't upgraded them, and BD1.0 per sony is a INTERM Format, for BD.
> DreamWorks and Paramont have already said they are dropping BD, and will not be releasing anymore or restocking the movies they have released because BD-J software, isn't working as promised, and is causing to many launch delays, and to that the fact that sony can't make enough of the BD due to failure rates, they are falling further behind in enhancements of a Interm product. Sony will drive this into the ground, and lose out again. Then again, some people will think of Sony as a high-end product, because of Mass-Advertising, not realizing Sony's are low to mid range products at best. HD-DVD has already advanced tech wise and will continue, the more players they put out the easier it is keep the price down, more players means better machines. BD from Sony can't get cheaper as the run rate is low and failure rate in production is high.


My son recently bought a PS3, and a friend of his has had one for a few months, no issues, graphics look great in 1080P, been renting movies from Netflix in Blu-Ray, also look great.

Dreamworks and Paramount in case you missed the NYT articles were paid under the table to drop Blu-Ray, not what I consider an ethical move by them or Toshiba.

Blu-Ray, is still the technically superior format, still has more studios supporting it, despite Dreamworks and Paramounts underhanded moves, hope they got enough dough to offset the loss of sales of their movies in Blu-ray until they decide it wasn't worth it..

Someone mentioned $99 for HD-DVD player, where would that be? Can't find a listing for that anywhere online, and thats what I call a real loss leader to try and make up ground if there is a HD-DVD player that cheap...


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

normang said:


> My son recently bought a PS3, and a friend of his has had one for a few months, no issues, graphics look great in 1080P, been renting movies from Netflix in Blu-Ray, also look great.
> 
> Dreamworks and Paramount in case you missed the NYT articles were paid under the table to drop Blu-Ray, not what I consider an ethical move by them or Toshiba.
> 
> ...


the "under the table" payoff was pure speculation and spun by the BD camp..they didn't want to admit any technical problems. Just ask FOX....people have had problems playing their movies on the the BR stand alone alone players...FOX's response was it wasn't their problem. BR/$ony has been scrambling to get things out in a hurry and keep the disc protection working, thus putting out non working or messed up products.

The $99 special was only for a weekend at certain stores..where they sold 90,000 in one day. The difference is, loss or not, they can drop to that whenever they want for a massive sale boost in stand alone players....where as BR won't even drop below $399...and it will catch up to them...why do you think the biggest selling BR "player" is a game console...and why HD DVD outsells BR in stand alone players?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

For Blu-Ray movies, and such with its 1080p, Movies will look great.
What I meant was game Graphics, are not what they should be. PlayStation3 is a game console, that plays HD movies. It isn't selling like it should, as the the graphics on games that play on both systems, PS3 falls behind. If you think the only money to exchange hands on EXCLUSIVE deals, is happening onlhy in the HD-DVD world come on:nono2: . Per Sony and its game division, BD-J is giving companies fits, in development, leading to fewer games, and lower graphics, on a 1080p device vs a 720p competition. 
Give Sony some credit, the Failure rate I was talking about is internal testing, not failure rates in shipped units.

Disney is all about Protecting its content, and Blu-Ray has the potential to have much better DRM protection, but per Sony that happens on BD2.0, and they are only shipping BD1.0 What happens when BD2.0 comes out, how do they replace all those Shipped units? Nobody knows. 
Blu-Ray is technically superior format, problem is Sony has shown over and over again, that they want to CONTROL and set how you copy and store your own media. From putting spyware on their CD's, silly little blocking tracks, or trying to come up with DRM protection into HDMI. Sony is Way into being a control freak on DRM, let anybody Else Drive Blu-Ray, and I will jump on Board. If history is any lesson, Toshiba vs Sony, Toshiba backs VHS and DVD formats, Both won. Sony backed the other formats, and lost. Sony takes better technology and ruins it.

One way Technology ruins things though, the Bionic women should not be using technology to make her Run super fast, it should use the same old tech and make her run in Sloooooo-Mooootion. Samething with Evil "Starbuck" counterpart!


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

GrumpyBear said:


> For Blu-Ray movies, and such with its 1080p, Movies will look great.
> What I meant was game Graphics, are not what they should be. PlayStation3 is a game console, that plays HD movies. It isn't selling like it should, as the the graphics on games that play on both systems, PS3 falls behind. If you think the only money to exchange hands on EXCLUSIVE deals, is happening onlhy in the HD-DVD world come on:nono2: . Per Sony and its game division, BD-J is giving companies fits, in development, leading to fewer games, and lower graphics, on a 1080p device vs a 720p competition.
> Give Sony some credit, the Failure rate I was talking about is internal testing, not failure rates in shipped units.
> 
> ...


yeah they weren't happy about Anydvd cracking their BD protection were they....lol...what was that disc style they tried pushing a few years back and failed big time?


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## GrumpyBear (Feb 1, 2006)

They used a fake track 0, to keep computers from ripping cd's. Simple little Sharpie fixed that issue.:hurah: :hurah: :lol: :hurah: :hurah:


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

lol...yeah and they got nailed for the rootkit too....i think it was the minidisc and SDDS that pretty much failed do to MP3 and DTS...they were going to win those "wars" too...lol


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

GrumpyBear said:


> Blu-Ray is technically superior format, problem is Sony has shown over and over again, that they want to CONTROL and set how you copy and store your own media. From putting spyware on their CD's, silly little blocking tracks, or trying to come up with DRM protection into HDMI. Sony is Way into being a control freak on DRM, let anybody Else Drive Blu-Ray, and I will jump on Board. If history is any lesson, Toshiba vs Sony, Toshiba backs VHS and DVD formats, Both won. Sony backed the other formats, and lost. Sony takes better technology and ruins it.


The PQ for both are about the same. The amount of content is larger for BD. DRM is a bane to the industry and is one of the reasons that playback is a problem with some units. Only one thing good for PC users is there are burners that can be added to 3.2 GB cpu w/ 1 GB DDR (or more).


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

There have been problems with some Sony SD DVDs due to their copy protection. I forget which ones now, but several new SD DVDs released in the last year or so have problems playing even on Sony DVD players.

The whole copy protection thing is really getting out of hand when it causes legitimate purchasers problems with playback.


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## Ext 721 (Feb 26, 2007)

texaswolf said:


> 90,000 HD-DVD players sold in one weekend...I'd say HD is doing fine...and since Sony can't drop the price that low...and is having issues with the PS3...HD-DVD is safe for quite a while.
> 
> D* made a huge splash and the cable companies are following suit, with a lot of them now adding nationals like CNN HD and TWC HD...sure it's only a few more HD channels, but it's channels that we still don't have at E*. Hopefully E* will get in gear soon...after all, on the website...they are STILL the HD leader:lol:


following the trend, blu-ray is betamax. a superior product.

anyone got a voom receiver?


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

texaswolf said:


> the "under the table" payoff was pure speculation and spun by the BD camp..they didn't want to admit any technical problems. Just ask FOX....people have had problems playing their movies on the the BR stand alone alone players...FOX's response was it wasn't their problem. BR/$ony has been scrambling to get things out in a hurry and keep the disc protection working, thus putting out non working or messed up products.
> 
> The $99 special was only for a weekend at certain stores..where they sold 90,000 in one day. The difference is, loss or not, they can drop to that whenever they want for a massive sale boost in stand alone players....where as BR won't even drop below $399...and it will catch up to them...why do you think the biggest selling BR "player" is a game console...and why HD DVD outsells BR in stand alone players?


If you believe the New York Times prints speculation, then why would anyone believe anything they print, which is a subject in and of itself. And since any technical issue is resolved by software, these issues go away...

While i realize that Sony is trying to protect their clients programming with protection, one of these days, hopefully, they'll all realize its futile, there isn't anything they can create to protect a movie that won't be cracked in days after they release it.. Just come up with a reasonable level of protection that most people won't care about because most people don't bother to rip their discs.. And those that do, are going to download every available tool to do so.. Right now as I see it, until a Blu-Ray burner is in every PC, trying to optimize protection is also a waste of time and resources, as most people I think buy the movies they really want and only rip a few to watch later and rarely ever watch again..

Interesting that HD-DVD elected to do a $99 fire sale, one could claim desperation that Blu-Ray doesn't have to do. And Sony and the other Blu-Ray players could do the same thing if they really wanted to, its all whether they feel the need to do so. If I had spotted that one or two day deal, even I might have bought one, and perhaps if they do it again I might, but I still think Blu-Ray is the better format, and has more going for it.. If it takes tactics like player fire-sale weekends for HD-DVD to gain any share or momentum, its only a matter of time before Blu-Ray does the same thing..


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

> If you believe the New York Times prints speculation, then why would anyone believe anything they print


actually, I don't give a lot of what they say credit anymore...but thats just me. I actually have seen that claim on a lot of BR biased sites, and didn't even know of the NYT's version.


> While i realize that Sony is trying to protect their clients programming with protection, one of these days, hopefully, they'll all realize its futile, there isn't anything they can create to protect a movie that won't be cracked in days after they release it.. Just come up with a reasonable level of protection that most people won't care about because most people don't bother to rip their discs.. And those that do, are going to download every available tool to do so.. Right now as I see it, until a Blu-Ray burner is in every PC, trying to optimize protection is also a waste of time and resources, as most people I think buy the movies they really want and only rip a few to watch later and rarely ever watch again..


Yeah i agree..$ony would rather spend tons of money to fight an endless war.



> Interesting that HD-DVD elected to do a $99 fire sale, one could claim desperation that Blu-Ray doesn't have to do. And Sony and the other Blu-Ray players could do the same thing if they really wanted to, its all whether they feel the need to do so. If I had spotted that one or two day deal, even I might have bought one, and perhaps if they do it again I might, but I still think Blu-Ray is the better format, and has more going for it.. If it takes tactics like player fire-sale weekends for HD-DVD to gain any share or momentum, its only a matter of time before Blu-Ray does the same thing..


I don't think it was a desperation tactic at all,(you'll hear that a lot on BR biased sites), it was more of a "look we are consumer friendly" tactic...and a "dare" if you will, because they know BR wont dare drop that low...$ony's boss has already stated that...$399 is the lowest...and thats only for christmas time. $ony has always been stingy on price...which becomes a downfall. I *seriously* doubt that BR would dare go to $99 for a weekend...or anywhere close to that...although it would be smart...I have know doubt they would sell numbers like that, because all of those people who bought HD's for that price would be able to now have BR player....then the consumer wins...but they wont..trust me if they did..i'd go buy one for that price...why not.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ext 721 said:


> following the trend, blu-ray is betamax. a superior product.
> 
> anyone got a voom receiver?


The Betamax argument does not hold water at this point and throwing Voom into the picture does not help either. Also the porn industry argument. If I recall correctly, the factors that caused Beta to fail was high price and lack of titles. People also did not have a full understanding of PQ. Even though the average Joe still is pretty clueless, there are more people that do today as a percentage as I can see it. Paying for PQ quality was something that was something only a very small percentage of people considered. With the introduction of HDTV, I personally think the awareness has increased but still is not where I would like it.

As for the porn arguments that usually follow and are tied into why Beta failed... The big difference here is the internet did not exist. Simple as that. Different time, Different environment, and time will tell if what played heavy factors then will today. My personal opinion is they won't.

Two main reaons why in my opinion Blu-ray won't go the way of Beta and either withe HD DVD. Major player backing in Hardware and two Content support. I always say Content is King and I think this is the point why the HD DVD war will be long and in the end Dual Players will have to be the solution. Content support is split to the point where there is not strong dominent platform so the options now are go with one and watch movies not in the format in regular DVD, get both formats, or wait for better dual players.

What I do see happening is as the un-informed go out and get those 99 dollar specials and then try and get there favorite Disney movie in HD-DVD and find out they can't there are going to be a lot of pissed off customers.. I would look at a backlash in the space from the casual electronics person towards the technology.

Ofcourse, like anything bottom line is cost. Blu-ray will need to move their HD costs down and my guess is they will. Personally I wish there was a clear quick winner.. But bottom line there is not...


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

> What I do see happening is as the un-informed go out and get those 99 dollar specials and then try and get there favorite Disney movie in HD-DVD and find out they can't there are going to be a lot of pissed off customers.. I would look at a backlash in the space from the casual electronics person towards the technology.


yeah exactly...and thats where i think $ony will lose out...people would rather have bought a *$99* player and watch _some_ of the movies they want...then pay *$399* for _some_ of the movies they want..plus I think with Dreamworks going all HDDVD...it will pull some of "disney" style people with it...shrek 4 and another spin off for it, and transformers 2 will help with that....unless Pixar gets busy again.


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## JackDobiash (Jul 20, 2005)

OK, I didn't want to get into the middle of this thread turned format-war but I just wanted to point out that the PS3 *IS* software upgradable to whatever new versions of the BD spec that are released, you won't ever have to replace it.


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## texaswolf (Oct 18, 2007)

JackDobiash said:


> OK, I didn't want to get into the middle of this thread turned format-war but I just wanted to point out that the PS3 *IS* software upgradable to whatever new versions of the BD spec that are released, you won't ever have to replace it.


right...they just have to make sure it doesn't have holes in it first.


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## normang (Nov 14, 2002)

texaswolf said:


> I don't think it was a desperation tactic at all,(you'll hear that a lot on BR biased sites), it was more of a "look we are consumer friendly" tactic...and a "dare" if you will, because they know BR wont dare drop that low...$ony's boss has already stated that...$399 is the lowest...and thats only for Christmas time. $ony has always been stingy on price...which becomes a downfall. I *seriously* doubt that BR would dare go to $99 for a weekend...or anywhere close to that...although it would be smart...I have know doubt they would sell numbers like that, because all of those people who bought HD's for that price would be able to now have BR player....then the consumer wins...but they wont..trust me if they did..i'd go buy one for that price...why not.


While I don't read at the moment any specific site that biases me one way or another, I only have Blu-Ray because my son bought a PS3 with his own $$. Because he plays games and it has the option to play Blu-Ray movies.. For which I've rented some and bought a couple of my favorites. And they look and sound spectacular.. I am sure that the same could be said for HD-DVD movies as well with a decent player.

As to whether Sony and its affiliate player makers will release a new lower cost player or reduce prices for a Christmas weekend, you maybe right, they won't do it, because they maybe looking over whatever analysis they get and decide its not time to do it yet.

While 90K Players at $99 sounds good, the question is, how good is it really? Do we have the data to know whether those sales actually tipped the market one way or another? Or did it just maintain a status quo? Will they dare do it again, it had to cost them something, those players probably still cost more than that to make at the moment.

Making some assumptions, which may or may not be accurate, if the $99 player cost say $150 to make, then they lost for a round number 4.6 million on the sales. If they bundled in any movie, they potentially lost another half million or more depending on the actual cost of the movie, and double that if more than one bundled movie.

The other question that adds into this, PS3 40GB unit, $399, that is getting close to a price point for some at Christmas to perhaps go for it, and there will be another set of potential Blu-Ray movie renters/buyers.. Some may not have an HD set, but will now be more tempted to get something that will support the high resolution, and then decide to see how a movie looks.

Time will tell, but content is king I think, and that favors Blu-Ray as I see it. Price is probably second, and that will continue to drop.. So next year could be the deciding year.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Ok guys.. this thread has obvious turned into a blu-ray vs. HD DVD thread. We already have one of those so I am going to close this thread down. Please direct your HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray comments here.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=86101


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