# Why doesn't Sony sue Dish Network for "Turbo HD" Claims?



## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

They claim turbo HD has Bluray quality video an audio.
REALLY? Well, Bluray is up to *40Mbps JUST FOR VIDEO*, it has up to *7.1 TRUE DISCRETE AUDIO*, it has *TRUE LOSSLESS COMPRESSION* for audio, for full master quality audio. Does "Turbo HD" have any of this?

I believe what Dish Network says about as much as what Bose says. Comparing Bluray to "Turbo HD" is like putting some big spinner rims on a Hyundai and calling it a Rolls Royce Phantom.


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## jethro65 (Aug 22, 2008)

Err..they stated it was 1080p, they made no claims of bitrates or anything else. Its satellite television for the masses, not dedicated local media.


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## grog (Jul 3, 2007)

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1601

http://www.hollywoodinhighdef.com/blog_detail.php?id=225


> Hollywood In High-def
> August 5, 2008
> Satellite Not Really Blu-ray Quality 1080p?
> 
> ...


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## jethro65 (Aug 22, 2008)

The OP was talking bitrates which only a tech-savvy type would even know about. Dishes claims are their problem to back up but 1080p video can be achieved with less than bluray-level bandwidth. 1080p is just a checkbox feature for most but sure has the blu-ray fanboys up in arms.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

Until Dish can up convert (like my PS3) every HD channel we have, TurboHD is a complete farce. 

I am NOT paying for anything On Demand or PPV, they are freakin' nuts. I can rent an ACTUAL BluRay movie for much less than $7. As well, Sony is just as nuts having downloadable videos for rent on the PSN.

If our HD channels were up converted to 1080p, then the TurboHD would be something actually worth advertising about. They are trying to recruit new customers to buy PPV content? That's really lame.


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## Jack White (Sep 17, 2002)

jethro65 said:


> Err..they stated it was 1080p, they made no claims of bitrates or anything else. Its satellite television for the masses, not dedicated local media.


They claimed "Bluray Quality Picture and Sound" in their TV ads.
I guess somebody will try and point out a Bluray Disc that has horrible sound and picture quality to defend Dish. If somebody made a Yugo and claimed "As fast as a Ferrari", and then when they tried to call them on it, if the Yugo guy said "As Fast as a Ferrari in first gear" to defend it, basically that's what Dish is doing.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

Jack White said:


> They claimed "Bluray Quality Picture and Sound" in their TV ads.
> I guess somebody will try and point out a Bluray Disc that has horrible sound and picture quality to defend Dish. If somebody made a Yugo and claimed "As fast as a Ferrari", and then when they tried to call them on it, if the Yugo guy said "As Fast as a Ferrari in first gear" to defend it, basically that's what Dish is doing.


Unless you have evidence of something different, all that Dish has ever said is "we have 1080p Video on Demand - same as Blue Ray Dish quality"
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dish_hd/learn_about/faq/index.shtml

You can argue what 'quality' means, etc. etc. Whatever - It's marketing crap the same as everyone else does. That's why they are specifically vague. They're trying to sell something.

What I find odd is that you have to setup a hypothetical "I guess somebody will try" to defend the honor of Blu-Ray. It's a freakin' DVD format. I don't understand the passion and anger behind statements like that...


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

I don't think that Jack understands what the meaning of the term "up to" is.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Main reason Sony does not sue is because the way it is worded, they would lose and it would cost them alot of money.


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## Richard King (Mar 25, 2002)

> Comparing Bluray to "Turbo HD" is like putting some big spinner rims on a Hyundai and calling it a Rolls Royce Phantom.


We have lots of Rolls Royce's (and Bentley's and Maserati's, and you name it) here in Vero Beach and I have never seen one with spinner wheels, and I hope I never do. Anyone doing that to a Rolls should be taken out and put out of their misery.  And don't make fun of Hyundai's or my Santa Fe might not start.


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## Jason Nipp (Jun 10, 2004)

But Hyundai does compare the new Genesis to a Lexus, Infinity, BMW, and MB.

And as the others have said no comparison of bit rates or audio have been shown or promised.

Oh and the trademark of Blu Ray is governed by the Blu Ray Disc consortium...... Not Sony. Sure Sony is one of the main stake holders..... But anyone who thinks they are the sole proprietor has not done their homework.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Dish "IAL" movie done with CBR=15 Mbps 1080p24 format.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

I recall a Jeep TV commercial that ran a couple of years ago. The commercial was promoting the Jeep Grand Cherokee, the largest of their fleet.

In the commercial, the statement is made that the Jeep Grand Cherokee goes from 0 to 60 faster than a BMW 318i, which by all accounts, is true.

Jeep fails to point out, their Grand Cherokee is equipped with a 280hp V-8 engine, while the BMW 318i is equipped with a 1900cc 160hp 4 cylinder engine.

All anyone watching the commercial took away is, the Jeep Grand Cherokee is faster than a BMW, simply because, only BMW owners know what a 318i is.

Did BMW sue Jeep...no silly, because the content of the advertisement was true....same as DISH.


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## HDRoberts (Dec 11, 2007)

Its just marketing. Who cares that much? I, for one, only have a 720p TV, a 5.1 sound system, and think my upconverting Oppo DVD player is plenty good enough, at least enough to prevent me from dropping a few hundred bucks on a Blu Ray player. 

And most ads I've seen only claim same resolution as Blu Ray. Plenty of a disclaimer, as the statement is true.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Well, if I were Dish, I'd be a little worried I'd lose my CNET Editor's Choice logo because of the misleading way it's placed, allowing an unknowing person to infer that everything above it is what CNET reviewed instead of just the DVR. And I don't think that if I were considering viewing the 1080p "I Am Legend" and was one of those customers who had a compatible system I would expect less than the full stream that would come from the Blu-ray DVD currently available from Amazon for $18.95, though for less than three bucks that would probably be foolish. Still, Dish is going to leave somebody among their customers feeling like they were conned, it is inevitable. Dumb way to advertise.:nono2:


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## jpeckinp (Nov 6, 2006)

I don't believe I'm about to say this but... The FCC or FTC needs to step up and do something about all of the deceptive advertising by all of the Sat/Cable/Fios providers.

There needs to be a set standard of what HD is. A value of bitrate established for each resolution and that bit rate can be variable as new encoders come along.
Also resolution needs to be addressed if you advertise 1080i you better be sending 1920x1080 and 720p should be 1280x720 with bitrates that don't make the screen look like a bunch small squares when birds fly across the screen and a camera pans across a crowd.

Also they need to have them tell the complete truth about how many HD channels you can receive. If they are advertising on a national market then they better advertise you can only get # of channels anywhere around the country, now if it is a local advertisement they should say how many that market can get. Like here in Chicago we can get 7 locals + the true national channels which equals somewhere around 50 total which is a big difference from the 114 or 117 advertised.

I really do hate having Government mess with stuff. I mean it I do.


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Regarding the number of channels - it's what the *COMPANY *delivering, not what particular customer getting.
As to FCC, hell no - they didn't move one iota when DTV and Dish start cramming MPEG-2 HD signal doing two cuts -resolution and bandwidth.

We are tail part of the machine, like exhausting pipe, he he and FCC should lubricate whole mechanism, not the pipe.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

The International Telecommunication Union (ITU) sets standards for broadcast HDTV. Actually, the ITU Radiocommunication Sector (ITU-R) is the division of the ITU that is responsible for radio communication.

ITU-R Recommendation BT.709 or Rec. 709 standardizes the format of High-definition television in an effort to avoid conflicting standards between countries which was the experience with SD TV.

The ITU functions to establish standards in the use of the radio spectrum generally within the framework of the public interest, but it's political. Then there is Blu-ray against which people here are measuring broadcast television.

Blu-ray is a commercial optical disk media storage system. It's a good system. But it's critical to understand that its purpose is oriented towards commercial video media and presenting that content in the high quality _*and*_ protecting the content with even higher quality digital rights management systems.

Both broadcast TV and Blu-ray use data compression systems that work within the limitations of the respective media - the radio spectrum and the optical disk. To confuse things more, both cable and satellite have to deal with compressing that data to fit within the limits of their systems' bandwidth capacity.

IMHO it is stupid for broadcasters, and the systems that carry them like cable and satellite, to encourage a comparison between (a) what they can offer and (b) what you get when you attach directly to your home theater system a Blu-ray player that costs as much as your satellite receiver and does nothing until you buy or rent a commercially prerecorded disk to stick in it.

Also the nice folks at the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) are not trying to deliver live to your home from China five simultaneous HD video/Dolby 5.1 audio streams of the 2008 Olympics. Dish Network and NBCU together did that for me pretty darned well.


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## Halfsek (Oct 29, 2002)

Alls I know is that i just switched from DTV to Dish. I really do think the HD on Dish looks nicer. After the POS DTV HD Tivo wannabe receiver missed recording a bunch of shows, even my "I don't see any difference with HD" wife demanded I toss it.

But the irony in it all is that the Dish DVR (612) only outputs up to 1080i. Not 1080p.


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## Redlinetire (Jul 24, 2007)

phrelin said:


> IMHO it is stupid for broadcasters, and the systems that carry them like cable and satellite, to encourage a comparison between (a) what they can offer and (b) what you get when you attach directly to your home theater system a Blu-ray player that costs as much as your satellite receiver and does nothing until you buy or rent a commercially prerecorded disk to stick in it.


Actually, I think it's brilliant marketing.

I don't have the links, but I've certainly read (EngadgetHD?) about surveys where most people can't tell the difference between 720 and 1080, much less 1080i and 1080p. For _most_ people with _most_ sets, they 'think' they're getting 'the best there is' delivered right over their satellite box. And they will be perfectly happy.

Certainly the crowd that studies this stuff intently (like us) won't be fooled. But you CAN fool most of the people most of the time and hopefully make money. Or at least keep up with your competitors.


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## jclewter79 (Jan 8, 2008)

Halfsek said:


> Alls I know is that i just switched from DTV to Dish. I really do think the HD on Dish looks nicer. After the POS DTV HD Tivo wannabe receiver missed recording a bunch of shows, even my "I don't see any difference with HD" wife demanded I toss it.
> 
> But the irony in it all is that the Dish DVR (612) only outputs up to 1080i. Not 1080p.


Yeah, that is the thing 1080p is only availble thru VOD and then only if you have a compatible TV set. And there is only one movie that is in 1080p, but to some customers they are delivering what they say they are. I have to agree with you on the D* thing, what is the point of having more HD if you can't time shift it when you want to with your DVR? Thats why I love E*, they let me watch what I want when I want without missed recorings or excuses. 99.9% it works and that is more than D* can say.


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## davethestalker (Sep 17, 2006)

If the VIP DVR's can up convert SD signals to 720p and 1080i, what's holding them back form up converting to 1080p? Again, until this happens, "TurboHD" is nothing. Dish is spending goo-gobs of money to fish for new subscribers to rent 1 movie in On Demand!


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## P Smith (Jul 25, 2002)

Hardware - same as DTV using BCM7411/7412.


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## Ken Green (Oct 6, 2005)

davethestalker said:


> Dish is spending goo-gobs of money to fish for new subscribers to rent 1 movie in On Demand!


I'd guess it is probably working quite well, and someone within marketing is receiving accolades of praise.

Creative advertising and marketing is everywhere. It so happens, this is a teeny part of an industry you know and understand well.

When I see advertisements within the industries I know and understand, I too, recognize the intent, and the precise use of "buzz-words," the general, but not-knowledgeable consumer base understands, I just chuckle to myself.

Relate to this...a couple walks into a BestBuy, Circuit City, or the likes, to purchase a new TV. The husband says, "Honey, this one is 1080p." The wife says, "what's that mean?" The husband says, "it's the best you can get." The wife says, "but it's $1,000 more." The husband says, "yes, but it's worth it, you'll see."

It happens everyday, in every industry.


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## phrelin (Jan 18, 2007)

Redlinetire said:


> Actually, I think it's brilliant marketing.
> 
> I don't have the links, but I've certainly read (EngadgetHD?) about surveys where most people can't tell the difference between 720 and 1080, much less 1080i and 1080p. For _most_ people with _most_ sets, they 'think' they're getting 'the best there is' delivered right over their satellite box. And they will be perfectly happy.
> 
> Certainly the crowd that studies this stuff intently (like us) won't be fooled. But you CAN fool most of the people most of the time and hopefully make money. Or at least keep up with your competitors.


You're right, of course, in terms of the general population. It's interesting to read comments by people who buy a 32" 1080p LCD and swear that they can see the difference from 6' away. But it will be awhile before broadcast TV carried by cable or satellite will approach Blu-ray quality on 50"+ TV's and there will be at least one who'll remember the marketing claims. Whether it will actually matter to that one, I don't know.


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## KevinRS (Oct 9, 2007)

It's funny seeing people who keep complaining that they want the receiver to upconvert to 1080p. A 720p or 1080i signal isn't really going to look that different being upconverted in the receiver to 1080p, or in the television. I wouldn't worry about 1080p on satellite until at least the channels start making programming available in 1080p, which may be a while, each step up you go is a smaller portion that actually has the capability to use it, and an even smaller portion that would notice the difference. I'd expect over the next few months to a year, to start seeing more VOD 1080p available, probably at a higher price than current VOD, probably available only if you have it hooked up to your network. High quality 1080p will take the bandwidth of several 720p channels, and most people have sets smaller than 47", where 1080 isn't going to make a difference.

On compression, they really need to work on it, either find a way to use variable compression, or something, and tweak it a little more for quality.
Even on SD channels, on a 19" SD CRT TV, in fast movement, like a basketball game, the camera pans across following the ball, I glance up and the audience looks all blocky, like watching a realplayer stream on slow dialup.
On HD, I got a bad impression from the blue planet series, in the opening of each episode, there was a pan shot from above of thousands of birds flying over water, obviously compressed, the birds turned to flashing blocks. A shot like that was set up from before they even got there with the camera to showcase HD high quality picture, and it was screwed up by the compression.


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## whatchel1 (Jan 11, 2006)

KevinRS said:


> It's funny seeing people who keep complaining that they want the receiver to upconvert to 1080p. A 720p or 1080i signal isn't really going to look that different being upconverted in the receiver to 1080p, or in the television. I wouldn't worry about 1080p on satellite until at least the channels start making programming available in 1080p, which may be a while, each step up you go is a smaller portion that actually has the capability to use it, and an even smaller portion that would notice the difference. I'd expect over the next few months to a year, to start seeing more VOD 1080p available, probably at a higher price than current VOD, probably available only if you have it hooked up to your network. High quality 1080p will take the bandwidth of several 720p channels, and most people have sets smaller than 47", where 1080 isn't going to make a difference.
> 
> On compression, they really need to work on it, either find a way to use variable compression, or something, and tweak it a little more for quality.
> Even on SD channels, on a 19" SD CRT TV, in fast movement, like a basketball game, the camera pans across following the ball, I glance up and the audience looks all blocky, like watching a realplayer stream on slow dialup.
> On HD, I got a bad impression from the blue planet series, in the opening of each episode, there was a pan shot from above of thousands of birds flying over water, obviously compressed, the birds turned to flashing blocks. A shot like that was set up from before they even got there with the camera to showcase HD high quality picture, and it was screwed up by the compression.


The yes is I agree with the statement about it will be harder to see a difference in what it will look like on screens smaller than 47. The no is I didn't have the blocking that you stated with the birds. Then I don't have one of the large screens,mine is just a 32" 1080i CRT.


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## megeed (May 16, 2006)

Unless the 1080p is 1080x1920 then I will agree that it is similar to Bluray. It is probably 1080x1280 or 1080x1440.



Redlinetire said:


> Unless you have evidence of something different, all that Dish has ever said is "we have 1080p Video on Demand - same as Blue Ray Dish quality"
> http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/our_products/dish_hd/learn_about/faq/index.shtml
> 
> You can argue what 'quality' means, etc. etc. Whatever - It's marketing crap the same as everyone else does. That's why they are specifically vague. They're trying to sell something.
> ...


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