# TiVo watchers uneasy after post-Super Bowl reports



## Chucky (Jul 21, 2002)

From CNet: http://news.com.com/2100-1041-5154219.html?part=dht&tag=ntop


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## HarryD (Mar 24, 2002)

I don't know about this.. I know TIVO looks at shows you've watched but to record when you rewind??


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Uhhh, been that way for 5 years. Opt out if you don't like it. Easy enough.


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## buzzdalf (Jan 27, 2003)

no biggie to me.


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## 928gt (Dec 17, 2003)

> Uhhh, been that way for 5 years. Opt out if you don't like it. Easy enough


FYI, "opting out" justs means Tivo is not selling your info to others (so they say, try and prove they aren't), BUT but can bet your LNB that it doesn't mean THEY are not continuing to monitor your Tivo usage.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

928gt said:


> FYI, "opting out" justs means Tivo is not selling your info to others (so they say, try and prove they aren't), BUT but can bet your LNB that it doesn't mean THEY are not continuing to monitor your Tivo usage.


FYI, you're wrong.

Opting out means that the next time your Tivo connects in to the Tivo mothership, your Tivo is reconfigured to not send the anonymous data that is collected.


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## cboylan3 (Jan 26, 2004)

BrettStah said:


> FYI, you're wrong.
> 
> Opting out means that the next time your Tivo connects in to the Tivo mothership, your Tivo is reconfigured to not send the anonymous data that is collected.


how does one "opt out"

thx


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

Call Tivo.


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## JM Anthony (Nov 16, 2003)

bonscott87 said:


> Uhhh, been that way for 5 years. Opt out if you don't like it. Easy enough.


Gee, I know this is a stupid question, but if they really believe that keeping stats on what we watch has a benefit to us, why don't they let us opt in? We have a bill of rights for cable that's set up this way. Makes a lot of sense to me from a consumer's perspective.


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## 928gt (Dec 17, 2003)

> Opting out means that the next time your Tivo connects in to the Tivo mothership, your Tivo is reconfigured to not send the anonymous data that is collected.


... and there is a way you can prove that has been done to your receiver ??

Do they let you monitor your own data stream to see what is being sent ???

I have some really nice firm land for sale along with a few bridges too....


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## tiffman (Jan 4, 2004)

928gt said:


> ... and there is a way you can prove that has been done to your receiver ??
> 
> Do they let you monitor your own data stream to see what is being sent ???
> 
> I have some really nice firm land for sale along with a few bridges too....


Little paranoid, aren't we? Might want to check your tin foil hat in case Tivo is picking up your brain waves too. Really, until there's any reason to mistrust them, they at least deserve the benefit of the doubt. I would doubt you check through each packet of data your computer sends out to make sure what's being sent there, though you may want to consider it if you're that worried about monitoring.


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## 928gt (Dec 17, 2003)

> Little paranoid, aren't we?


I have learned enough in life to know it is always better to be a "little paranoid"... than a "little naive"


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## tiffman (Jan 4, 2004)

928gt said:


> I have learned enough in life to know it is always better to be a "little paranoid"... than a "little naive"


I have no problem with a little paranoia; it just seemed like a bit much in this case. If they were collecting data entirely without notice or didn't allow opting out, that might be one thing, but they seem up-front enough with everything so far to not raise my suspicions.


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## Nick (Apr 23, 2002)

:eek2: Paranoid? Who, me?

:eek2: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're _not_ out to get you.

:eek2: If you are not paranoid, you just don't understand the situation.

:eek2: A little paranoia can be a healthy thing.

:eek2: Paranoia is not just a simple matter of distrust. It may well be essential to one's very survival.


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

928gt said:


> ... and there is a way you can prove that has been done to your receiver ??
> 
> Do they let you monitor your own data stream to see what is being sent ???
> 
> I have some really nice firm land for sale along with a few bridges too....


Yes. Go over to the Tivo Community underground forums and do some searches. It's quite easy to monitor everthing that happens with the Tivo with some Linux hacks. It was all done years ago and proven what does and doesn't get transmitted back to the Tivo mothership. Besides others, do some searches on posts by Otto from a couple years ago.

So if you can put down the tin foil cap for a little while and do some research, you'll find out that no data is sent when you opt out. :sure:


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## ccwf (Dec 4, 2003)

JM Anthony said:


> Gee, I know this is a stupid question, but if they really believe that keeping stats on what we watch has a benefit to us, why don't they let us opt in?


 You can, in fact, also call TiVo and opt-in to have Personally Identifiable Viewing Information collected. Some TiVo owners do this, sometimes in the stated hope it will help keep their favorite programs on the air.


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

Does anyone have the phone numbers? What to ask for? DirecTV had no clue about this.


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## tiffman (Jan 4, 2004)

cnsf said:


> Does anyone have the phone numbers? What to ask for? DirecTV had no clue about this.


You have to contact Tivo at 1-877-367-8486 and tell them you don't want your "Anonymous Viewing Information or Diagnostic Information used in any way" (from the Tivo FAQ). I presume you'll need some identifying information from your receiver(s).


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## Chris Blount (Jun 22, 2001)

This sort of thing really doesn't bother me. If they collect viewing data it might help the service in the long run. It obviously has helped in some cases already.


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## Phil T (Mar 25, 2002)

I think it is probably a more accurate way of collecting info then surveys or phone calls. I am all for it, as long as they give people a choice to opt out.


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

I was all for it until I recently thought of potential scenarios where it could backfire on people.

Let's say you are sued for a reason and your defense is that you didn't know about the consequences. The Tivo data could prove whether you watched a show about that issue.

For example, you are sued by the RIAA for downloading music. You claim you were not aware of the law and agree to stop immediately. If the RIAA can prove (via Tivo information) that you knew it was illegal because you watched a particular show on it, it could hurt your defense (not to say this is a good defense anyway - ignorance of the law is not a defense), but you can see where I'm going here.

If the data is available, it could be subpoenaed by any authorised agency. Like your supermarket card.....if you buy life insurance and say you're a non-smoker....the insurance company could subpoena your supermarket records to see if you regularly bought cigarettes....voiding your policy and leaving your family in the cold (although it is your fault in the first place for lying - AND smoking...).

Same with EZPass in NY....I recently got a warning for driving too fast in an EZPass lane. Turns out it was my wife.....but... do they have the right to clock my speed using EZPass? Yes.... but I don't like it.

As much as I want to help improve programming, my personal information and habits are not worth sacrificing.


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## tiffman (Jan 4, 2004)

Keep in mind they don't collect any personally identifiable information. In other words, even if subpoenaed, they have no information to turn over. I wouldn't be surprised if helped contribute to their decision.


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

OK, if that's the case, how can they turn it off? They need to tie the data to the receiver identifier. If they claim they instruct the receivers separately, they are ultimately in control of the data. How do we know what they do with it after it is collected?

I would "think" they have to collect the receiver number to prevent duplicate collections and the viewing habits of that receiver.

DirecTV has the information that ties the receiver numbers to your account.

Am I off-base here?


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## Curtis0620 (Apr 22, 2002)

They did the same thing last year. Why is it now a big deal?


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

Curtis0620 said:


> They did the same thing last year. Why is it now a big deal?


?

Can you clarify? Are you addressing this to someone specifically?

I think this is an ongoing issue highlighted recently by the SuperBowl Tivo reports.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

cnsf:

First of all, claiming ignorance of the law isn't a valid defense anyway.

Secondly, there is no way to prove WHO watched a particular show. Was it you? A houseguest? Your Tivo doesn't have any way of knowing.

Third, the way it works is like this: By default, each Tivo is configured to dial-in on a regular basis. Before the phone call takes place, something called "Housekeeping" happens, which is when all of your usage data is gathered together, anonymized to only your ZIP code, which is then uploaded when the phone call takes place. If you opt out, you simply tell Tivo, Inc. you tell them you don't want that to happen, and the next time your Tivo calls in, it is told to stop sending/uploading the data from that point forward.


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

BrettStah said:


> cnsf:
> 
> First of all, claiming ignorance of the law isn't a valid defense anyway.


Yes, I already noted that.



BrettStah said:


> Secondly, there is no way to prove WHO watched a particular show. Was it you? A houseguest? Your Tivo doesn't have any way of knowing.


Good point, but doesn't apply as easily if you live alone. How do you prove a houseguest watched it? The burden of proof may fall on the Tivo owner. Use the supermarket info as an example. This has been used in the past to catch criminals....don't ask me to quote the event, I just remember hearing it and noting the concern to myself.



BrettStah said:


> Third, the way it works is like this: By default, each Tivo is configured to dial-in on a regular basis. Before the phone call takes place, something called "Housekeeping" happens, which is when all of your usage data is gathered together, anonymized to only your ZIP code, which is then uploaded when the phone call takes place. If you opt out, you simply tell Tivo, Inc. you tell them you don't want that to happen, and the next time your Tivo calls in, it is told to stop sending/uploading the data from that point forward.


Was this verified during the Tivo testing mentioned? Did someone look through the data being sent "recently" to verify this? It may have been different two years ago and I imagine it is easy to update the software to include more fields to be sent. i.e. that snapshot analysis may not be applicable now.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

It's possible to monitor all traffic sent to/from a Tivo. Tivo, Inc. knows this. Would they be dumb enough to violate a customer's request to not have their anonymous data uploaded? Most people think no. Could they? Sure, but it's also pretty certain to me that the hackers would detect such a change.

(Plus, remember that DirecTivos don't have to even dial-in except for software updates... I've gone hundreds of days without dialing in successfully (phone cord is disconnected).)

Also, some people have to keep things in perspective... with all of the other things in life that can be and are being kept track of, are TV shows that are or are not being recorded really that important? Your bank, credit card companies, etc. can and do keep track of purchases, etc. Do you really think that if you're sued by the RIAA that they'll (a) find out if you're a Tivo owner, (b) check to see what channels you get, (c) try to get a subpoena to see if you watched some news show on one of those channels on a particular date/time so that they can say "Ah ha! Your Tivo says that you watched the NBC Nightly News on December 12th, which had a segment on music piracy! Therefore you knew it was illegal!"


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## cnsf (Jun 6, 2002)

I figure the same thing, but am trying to think of scenarios where I could be concerned.

Do we trust an assumption or try and find some facts to back up the assumption?

I am all for improving programming, but am I being naive by thinking it's a good thing?


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## bonscott87 (Jan 21, 2003)

As Brett said, if Tivo did *not* anonymize the data or sent data anyway if you opted out, you'd know about it. There would be hundreds of posts in the Tivo Underground about it and it would be a HUGE deal. The hackers watch the data all the time. They know exactly what is being sent and what isn't. It's very easy to track this stuff if you are half way competent with Linux.

It's really simple. You have nothing to worry about. If that isn't good enough then call up Tivo and opt out. It's that simple.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

cnsf said:


> I figure the same thing, but am trying to think of scenarios where I could be concerned.
> 
> Do we trust an assumption or try and find some facts to back up the assumption?
> 
> I am all for improving programming, but am I being naive by thinking it's a good thing?


I can't think of any scenarios where I should be concerned, but if you think of any feel free to post them. I think about what the worst scenario possible (within the realm of reason)... let's say that there is someone who actually cares what is watched on my DirecTivos (I have 3 of them). Who would care? Well, I'm not sure who... as far as I know, there's no way to break the law by watching TV (assuming you're not hacking the DirecTV signal, in which case you're probably not going to allow your Tivos to dial-in anyway), so law enforcement won't care what I watch. (I guess if I was being questioned as to my whereabouts at a particular date/time, and I remembered I was watching TV at that time, my Tivo logs could be used to show that something was indeed watched during the given timeframe (no way to prove definitively it was me watching it, though).

Does NBC care if I watch or don't watch ER? I'm sure they care about trends, and aggregated data, but I bet they don't need nor want the information down to the individual viewer level.

Does Tivo (or DirecTV) care what I watch? Maybe, if they're selling data to compete with (or work in conjunction with) ratings firms such as Neilsen. But once again, I don't see why they'd want to know specifically that I deleted "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation" without watching it, or cancelled the Grammy Awards that were originally set to record, or why I haven't watched any "Simpsons" episodes this season yet, etc. What exactly would they do with that? Call me up and say, "Hey BrettStah, what's the deal with CSI this week? You normally watch it, but this week you deleted it without viewing it at all? What's that? You watched it live while you were over at a friend's house? Oh, OK, just checking!"

So that leaves me with no one or thing that I can think of that would actually really need or want to know exactly what happens on my Tivos, and there are numerous legitimate reasons that could explain specific actions that are not obvious... for example, I could start playing back a show, and then fall asleep shortly afterwards. Did I really watch the show? Or I had a babysitter over who cancelled a recording from taking place, or my 3 year old cancelled stuff, or my remote control codes got screwed up and I was controlling 2 Tivos at the same time, and wound up screwing stuff up.


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## Pantageas (Jan 28, 2004)

My hope is that the _anonymous_ info gathered by TIVO can be used to subplant the Nielsen ratings. That way the networks will know that many of us aren't clamoring for "My Big, Fat Average American Bachlorette Idol's Fear Factor" and will actually schedule more of the programs we actually watch, and deem _worthy_ enough for collecting on our precious TIVO hard drives!


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## beejaycee (Nov 1, 2003)

You know, this whole thing strikes me as very funny, if in a sad way. We're scandalized that Janet Jackson's boob was flashed to the world (not even the whole thing because of the pasty) because children may have seen it (and children may not yet understand how dirty and nasty the human body is). Then we're worried that Tivo knows that we rewound and rewound, ad nausem, to see it.  Sounds to me like we all need a collective dose of ex-lax.


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## BrettStah (Feb 7, 2003)

Pantageas said:


> My hope is that the _anonymous_ info gathered by TIVO can be used to subplant the Nielsen ratings. That way the networks will know that many of us aren't clamoring for "My Big, Fat Average American Bachlorette Idol's Fear Factor" and will actually schedule more of the programs we actually watch, and deem _worthy_ enough for collecting on our precious TIVO hard drives!


That would indeed be nice. In fact, Tivo recently has announced some sort of collaboration with Neilsen, whereby certain Tivo households would be contacted to see if they would be willing to have additional information gathered (and possibly equipment installed) to supply to Neilsen.

I'm still not quite sure how they're going to deal with all of the issues that arise due to dual tuners, as well as multiple Tivo households... for example, if I record CSI and Friends, am I counted as two people? How will they know if I actually watch a show that I record? Some things I may watch live, with or without recording it. The Tivo is always on something, so will they make some assumptions based upon the amount of time since the last remote control use to try to determine if I'm actually watching what's currently on? What if I record shows but don't watch them until days, weeks, or months later? I've saved entire seasons of shows before watching the first episode for one reason or another.


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