# CED: 2006-03-23 - Trick Play (FF/RW and others)



## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

What can be improved or added to the "Trick Play" (the movement around a recording via FF/RW and other means)


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

"Skip" to ticks, not end.


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I had a very highend Sony VCR at one time that would allow me to FF to a certain time. Say I knew I wanted to start watching a show 1 hour and 14 minutes into the movie. I would use the remote to enter 114 and it would use a highspeed FF to go to that point then pause itself. At least I seem to recall thats how it happened as it's been a LONG time since I used that VCR.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

- 30 sec skip
- not skipping to the end when you hit the jumpback, while walking a show that was still recording and just finished recording.
- Have MYVOD and live TV remember where you were in the recording. ei. if you pause a record, put the unit into standby, start playing another MYVOD instead of the one your watching, or pause "live" tv on a station that is recording. 

I just hate leaving a program that I was watching in my VOD and not being able to pick it up from where I was without setting a bookmark. If you pause live TV that is recording and channel the channel or start playing some else from MYVOD and then go back and start playing the other show that I was watching live. It should remember that I paused the recording show and take me to that point not start from the begining.


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> - 30 sec skip
> - not skipping to the end when you hit the jumpback, while walking a show that was still recording and just finished recording.
> - Have MYVOD and live TV remember where you were in the recording. ei. if you pause a record, put the unit into standby, start playing another MYVOD instead of the one your watching, or pause "live" tv on a station that is recording.
> 
> I just hate leaving a program that I was watching in my VOD and not being able to pick it up from where I was without setting a bookmark. If you pause live TV that is recording and channel the channel or start playing some else from MYVOD and then go back and start playing the other show that I was watching live. It should remember that I paused the recording show and take me to that point not start from the begining.


Maybe I am mis-understanding, but for me things in MyVOD ALWAYS start where I stopped them....kind of annoys me as there is no good way to start them over from the beginnihng.....

I guess the grass is always greener.....


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Not having video/audio dropouts with pause/FF/RW and returning to play.

Overshoot compensation (I think that is a patent issue though).

If no compensation then a definable skip function (30 seconds or whatever).


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## bww (Feb 15, 2006)

ISWIZ said:


> "Skip" to ticks, not end.


Ditto for me, this is one thing I really miss on the R15 (which is really getting better!!)


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

30 second skip


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

wohlfie said:


> Maybe I am mis-understanding, but for me things in MyVOD ALWAYS start where I stopped them....kind of annoys me as there is no good way to start them over from the beginnihng.....
> 
> I guess the grass is always greener.....


It doesn't seem constiant for me. Some times it does other times it doesn't. It could be that it does it if I put it instandby. As for the starting for the begining the only way to do that is to hit skip to end twice. I like what the UTV did if you hit play it would start from the begining but if you selected the show it would ask if you want to play or start from the begining and that option was only there if it was left or paused in the middle.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

- Being able to delete bookmarks.
- Smoother FFx3 and FFx4, it almost seems as it's jumping thru the show at these speeds rather then FF. It's like watching streaming video on dialup where you see an image pause for a sec and then get another image and your never sure what you'll see next. Rather then seeing the whole thing FF like on a VCR, where you see all the images fly by but really fast.


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## dhsetter (Feb 7, 2006)

This may be a radical idea, but having the color buttons do tricks
Blue - 15 second back
Red - 30 second skip
Green - Jump to next tick
Yellow - jump back to next tick


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> - Being able to delete bookmarks.
> - Smoother FFx3 and FFx4, it almost seems as it's jumping thru the show at these speeds rather then FF. It's like watching streaming video on dialup where you see an image pause for a sec and then get another image and your never sure what you'll see next. Rather then seeing the whole thing FF like on a VCR, where you see all the images fly by but really fast.


I agree, but I suspect the problem is that as a digital recording, they can only stick so many frames in a second....at some speed they have to start skipping frames....

What puzzles me is that the speeds are not consistent....I watch the timer jump in wierd increments.....0:01, 0:03, 0:08, 0:010, 0:15, etc....

I would think that it would be consistent at a given speed like 1, 4, 7, 10, 13 at 3x and 1, 5, 9, 13, etc. at 4x.

(yes - I got tired of typing zeroes and colons  )

Anybody else think thats wierd?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

wohlfie said:


> I agree, but I suspect the problem is that as a digital recording, they can only stick so many frames in a a second....and some speed they have to start skipping frames....
> 
> What puzzles me is that the speeds are not consistent....I watch the timer jump in wierd increments.....0:01, 0:03, 0:08, 0:010, 0:15, etc....
> 
> ...


That more of what I was saying (i never paid attn to the timer), the issue is also that what you see on the screen when you hit play is no where near what is on the screen when you hit play. I know with my UTV that what I saw was what played. It seems that it just throws random images from the recording on the screen.


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## dhsetter (Feb 7, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> That more of what I was saying (i never paid attn to the timer), the issue is also that what you see on the screen when you hit play is no where near what is on the screen when you hit play. I know with my UTV that what I saw was what played. It seems that it just throws random images from the recording on the screen.


I think has to do with the auto delay. By the time you see where you want to stop at the higher speeds the recording is already way past it. This makes the jump to a tick mark more valuable to me than the 4x FF or RW.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

dhsetter said:


> I think has to do with the auto delay. By the time you see where you want to stop at the higher speeds the recording is already way past it. This makes the jump to a tick mark more valuable to me than the 4x FF or RW.


How often are the tick marks? I though those were at 15 minute intervals. Jumping back 15 minutes after FF wouldn't help.

EDIT: Or are you referring to jumping forward to a tick mark?


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## dhsetter (Feb 7, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> How often are the tick marks? I though those were at 15 minute intervals. Jumping back 15 minutes after FF wouldn't help.
> 
> EDIT: Or are you referring to jumping forward to a tick mark?


Jumping forward to a tick mark and then FFx2 to get to where the spot you're looking for (or even back if it's closer to the next tick mark). I think it is faster to do that then the FFx4 from the beginning.

Another feature that would be nice is to tell the system how much time between tick marks. You could set it for 5 or 10 minutes and then never be far away from anything.


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## TMullenJr (Feb 23, 2006)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> - Being able to delete bookmarks.
> 
> 
> > Go to the bookmark, pause and press -- That delete's the bookmark.
> ...


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

wohlfie said:


> ... but I suspect the problem is that as a digital recording, they can only stick so many frames in a second....at some speed they have to start skipping frames....


Must disagree with you there Wohlfie. I switched from a Dish PVR510. I believe both use MPEG2 compression. The 510 worked much better at FF & RW. It had 4x, 15x, 60x & 300x. Even at 60X it was much more accurate when returning to normal speed.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

I would like:

Hit pause, hit the >> key once and you get 1/15th of normal speed. Press >> a second time and you get 1/4 normal speed. Third time = normal speed.

Same for reverse.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

The skip to tick is nice and all. But the most useful thing is to efficiently skip over commercials, without having to rely on the jumpback botton to find where the commercials end. Once you go beyond 2x FF (and 2X FF is too slow IMHO) it is very very difficult to stop where you want.

Just let me cleanly skip over commercials -- that I think is the #1 "trick play" for a DVR. Obviously the audio and video stalls/delay when retuning to play need cleaned up pronto, as mentioned previously.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

qwerty said:


> I would like:
> 
> Hit pause, hit the >> key once and you get 1/15th of normal speed. Press >> a second time and you get 1/4 normal speed. Third time = normal speed.
> 
> Same for reverse.


Hey, that's one thing I've not yet figured out. How do you do SLOW MOTION?

My Tivo's have a SM button. I press that I go into slow mo. Then, if I press pause I can use the FF button to advance frame by frame. (Our group used that many times during the original Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction"  ).

How do I SlowMo or Frame Advance on the R15? I looked at the manual........oh yea right. What should one expect from the manual.


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## sjniedz (Feb 11, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> What can be improved or added to the "Trick Play" (the movement around a recording via FF/RW and other means)


I know it has already been said, but I will say it again. Gotta have the 30 second skip.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

sjniedz said:


> I know it has already been said, but I will say it again. Gotta have the 30 second skip.


sjniedz,

You're talking about the 30 second skip right?  I've said it before and will continue to say it until we get it.

Other than Bobman, who wants the 30 second skip? Poll maybe Earl, for any DTV types that browse this forum.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Hey, that's one thing I've not yet figured out. How do you do SLOW MOTION?
> 
> My Tivo's have a SM button. I press that I go into slow mo. Then, if I press pause I can use the FF button to advance frame by frame. (Our group used that many times during the original Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction"  ).
> 
> How do I SlowMo or Frame Advance on the R15? I looked at the manual........oh yea right. What should one expect from the manual.


For slow motion, press and hold the play button while in normal play mode.

For frame by frame, hit pause, then use the ff button to frame forward, or the fast rewind button to frame backward.

Carl


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## Earl Bonovich (Nov 15, 2005)

So let me understand what you guys are saying...

You want some version of a 30 second skip... correct?


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## gimme5 (Jan 28, 2006)

I woult like skip to tick if you use the skip to end button while fast forwarding (like on the tivo) and a slow mo solution that works well. Like if you hold the >> button for longer than a half second, it plays in slow motion until you let go. Not just the "one" frame.

I personally don't care for the 30 second skip. 

Oh yeah, and an overshoot correction when using the jump back button only (maybe 8 seconds in ff, 16 seconds in 2x ff, 30 seconds in 3x ff, or something like that).
No overshoot correction when pressing play. How great would that be?


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

TMullenJr said:


> cabanaboy1977 said:
> 
> 
> > - Being able to delete bookmarks.
> ...


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## walters (Nov 18, 2005)

What would really be funny is if they surprised everyone and gave automatic commercial skip (the sort that keys off fade-out/in). But disabled on Fox channels.


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## wohlfie (Dec 28, 2005)

qwerty said:


> Must disagree with you there Wohlfie. I switched from a Dish PVR510. I believe both use MPEG2 compression. The 510 worked much better at FF & RW. It had 4x, 15x, 60x & 300x. Even at 60X it was much more accurate when returning to normal speed.


Well, I was not trying to make an excuse or forgive its poor coming out of FF - just pointing out what I belive is an immuatble law of video (is there such a thing?).

Simply, the display has a limit to how many frames it can display per second (I'm no techy, but logic tells me it would be related to refresh rates, etc). If you try to speed up to a point where you would exceed this, there would be no choice but to skip frames. I have no idea what these limits are or whether 3x and/or 4x are fast enough for this to happen.

Thats all I was saying (in regards to skipping) - but maybe I'm wrong.


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## sjniedz (Feb 11, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> sjniedz,
> 
> You're talking about the 30 second skip right?  I've said it before and will continue to say it until we get it.
> 
> Other than Bobman, who wants the 30 second skip? Poll maybe Earl, for any DTV types that browse this forum.


Right on. If I get the 30 second skip button I will be happy. To me the whole point of a DVR is to avoid watching commercials and saving time. It is just so much easier to skip commercials with the skip button IMHO.


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## ncguy68 (Mar 22, 2006)

I woud like to see a couple more speeds added to FF and Rewind. Maybe one between 2 and 3 and another between 3 and 4. I would also like a way to jump from the beginning and end of a program.


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## RTShin (Feb 21, 2006)

A sound (like TiVo) has so you know the button push for FF or RW registered. Otherwise you need to watch the arrows on the lower right to see what speed things ae going.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

ncguy68 said:


> I woud like to see a couple more speeds added to FF and Rewind. Maybe one between 2 and 3 and another between 3 and 4. I would also like a way to jump from the beginning and end of a program.


Why would you like to see more speeds? Just curious on this request.

Given you had a 30 second skip, and you have 3-4 FF speeds, and they worked correctly, why would you need something between 2 & 3 and between 3 & 4?


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Earl Bonovich said:


> So let me understand what you guys are saying...
> 
> You want some version of a 30 second skip... correct?


That would be #1 on my list of desired new features. I guess that once you've had it, you can't live without it


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

I would like to see 31.5 second skip 

Just joking. Yes it would be nice, I would also like the ability to shuttle to any spot in te recording easily.


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## DesignDawg (Jan 8, 2006)

wohlfie said:


> Well, I was not trying to make an excuse or forgive its poor coming out of FF - just pointing out what I belive is an immuatble law of video (is there such a thing?).
> 
> Simply, the display has a limit to how many frames it can display per second (I'm no techy, but logic tells me it would be related to refresh rates, etc). If you try to speed up to a point where you would exceed this, there would be no choice but to skip frames. I have no idea what these limits are or whether 3x and/or 4x are fast enough for this to happen.
> 
> Thats all I was saying (in regards to skipping) - but maybe I'm wrong.


You're right that it has to skip frames, but the complaint is that it's going from displaying 60 1/2-frames (fields) per second (equvi. to 30 frames per second...29.97 actually) to displaying more like 1 frame per second. At very high speeds, it seems to just grab a random frame from the recording, display it for a second, then grab another, and display it for a second, etc. When you're FFWDing that fast, a second is a long time in a show. By the time you see the show has started and resume playback, you may be in the next commercial break, or the previous one. At any rate, you'r ealmost ALWAYS lost.
So, yes, it has to drop frames. But it's dropping about 30 times more than necessary. If it could just display a little more accurately where it is in the show, that would be nice.

Ricky

P.S.- YES. 30 SECOND SKIP. please?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

As much as I hate it when folks start mentioning patents....I'll have to bring this up.

The following is only a *guess* on my part.

The R15 receives and stores shows in MEPG2 format. It only decodes MPEG2 when playing a program or live TV (as does (DTivos).

Storing an MPEG2 program doesn't have a linear time track/space track. I suspect the R15 FF logic starts skipping sections of a stream file, decoding once in a while. So FF1 skips 500 blocks, FF2 skips 1000 blocks, FF3 skips 2000 blocks and FF4 skips 400 blocks. Since blocks would not equal time given all of my assumptions, you see random skipping and when you press play/pause/jump back your not really where you thought you were.

Plus, in regards to a 30 second skip, that may be harder than we would guess. Again using a MPEG2 data stream, what equates to 30 seconds? Same with the jump back. Maybe why the jump back sometimes does 6 seconds and sometimes it does more or less. The MPEG2 data stream is compressed. If the R15 is jumping back a specific number of blocks/bytes/records (whatever) that will not always equal the same time. We may not have a 30 second skip due to this problem.

The reason I mentioned a patent is that Tivo does holds two patents (although they read the same for "*Method and apparatus implementing random access and time-based functions on a continuous stream of formatted digital data*"). These patents are:  6,792,195 and  6,327,418.

If anyone else has views on this, I'd like to hear them.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Plus, in regards to a 30 second skip, that may be harder than we would guess. Again using a MPEG2 data stream, what equates to 30 seconds? Same with the jump back. Maybe why the jump back sometimes does 6 seconds and sometimes it does more or less. The MPEG2 data stream is compressed. If the R15 is jumping back a specific number of blocks/bytes/records (whatever) that will not always equal the same time. We may not have a 30 second skip due to this problem.
> 
> If anyone else has views on this, I'd like to hear them.[/QUOTE
> 
> Dish sucessfully implimented the 30 Sec skip & 10 sec (replay) at least 2 1/2 years ago on the PVR510. I'm pretty sure that the PVR510 also used MPEG 2 compression.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

RTShin said:


> A sound (like TiVo) has so you know the button push for FF or RW registered. Otherwise you need to watch the arrows on the lower right to see what speed things ae going.


NOOOOO, sorry I really hate that noise on the TIVO. As long as it doesn't have that annoying sound I think I might be ok with it.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> If anyone else has views on this, I'd like to hear them.


I hear what your saying and it does make sense. But other DVR's UTV, Dish have this feauture so I don't think it's a patent issue.

Out of curiousity, if MPEG2 doesn't have a liner time track how are DVR's and DVD able to display time correct if you start from a middle of a recording?


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> I hear what your saying and it does make sense. But other DVR's UTV, Dish have this feauture so I don't think it's a patent issue.
> 
> Out of curiousity, if MPEG2 doesn't have a liner time track how are DVR's and DVD able to display time correct if you start from a middle of a recording?


Once the MPEG2 stream is decoded you do have a time track. But then again we're only guessing that the R15 stores the data in MPEG2

Otherwise why would the jump back be inconsistent and why would FF/RW be jumpy? If the R15 plays at 24 fps, the FF1 would be 48 fps, FF2 96 fps, FF3 192 fps and FF4 384 fps (or some multiple of those). But you should get smooth images, not what appears to freeze on a frame for a fraction of a second. Well, unless the entire stream is being decoded and the decoder can't keep up at FF4 speed.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Once the MPEG2 stream is decoded you do have a time track. But then again we're only guessing that the R15 stores the data in MPEG2
> 
> Otherwise why would the jump back be inconsistent and why would FF/RW be jumpy? If the R15 plays at 24 fps, the FF1 would be 48 fps, FF2 96 fps, FF3 192 fps and FF4 384 fps (or some multiple of those). But you should get smooth images, not what appears to freeze on a frame for a fraction of a second. Well, unless the entire stream is being decoded and the decoder can't keep up at FF4 speed.


Ah, got it.


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## ISWIZ (Nov 18, 2005)

If Tivo loses the case in Texas (opening this week) things could change for a lot of the DVR makers. It should be interesting. I don't see the case hurting the R15 but it could allow some improvements many would like to see.


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## ncguy68 (Mar 22, 2006)

FF1 and FF2 are too slow....on my unit I can not tell that much difference between the two. FF3 is not consistent and FF4 is entirely too fast. For some odd reason FF3 speeds up after a few seconds and is almost as fast as FF4


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

If Tivo wins this case, it pretty much shuts other DVRs down. Kinda like...ah....something like BlackBerry. I also do think it will effect the R15 if Tivo wins.

The only "wiggle" room here is that the patent mentions converting signals to MPEG and then converting them back. If DISH's defense is going to be the fact that they did the convertsion to MPEG in a different process, which is pretty lame.

The DTivo units would not fall under this type of suit as they were produced via an agreement between DTV and Tivo. The R15 may very well be next on Tivos list of this suit goes well.

For extra reading, check out this article or this one.

Here's the patent for those interested.


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## sjniedz (Feb 11, 2006)

I have another feature I would like to see added. I would like to have the ability to start a program over from the beginning. I have kids and record kiddie shows for them. On a 30 minute show, it generally ends at the 27 minute mark. The only way to get to the beginning is to FF all the way to the end, then go to the list and play it again. 

A lot of times when I select a show that has already been played, it would be nice to have an option, PLAY, or PLAY FROM BEGINNING.


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## qwerty (Feb 19, 2006)

sjniedz said:


> I have another feature I would like to see added. I would like to have the ability to start a program over from the beginning. I have kids and record kiddie shows for them. On a 30 minute show, it generally ends at the 27 minute mark. The only way to get to the beginning is to FF all the way to the end, then go to the list and play it again.
> 
> A lot of times when I select a show that has already been played, it would be nice to have an option, PLAY, or PLAY FROM BEGINNING.


Press the advance button twice.


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## dhsetter (Feb 7, 2006)

Wolffpack said:


> Otherwise why would the jump back be inconsistent and why would FF/RW be jumpy? If the R15 plays at 24 fps, the FF1 would be 48 fps, FF2 96 fps, FF3 192 fps and FF4 384 fps (or some multiple of those). But you should get smooth images, not what appears to freeze on a frame for a fraction of a second. Well, unless the entire stream is being decoded and the decoder can't keep up at FF4 speed.


I always thought that it jumped randomly so that the viewer would be able to take in where in the recording they are. If things go so quickly by, it would be hard to determine where you are at because it is going so fast.

I am not saying, by the way, that the seemingly random frames are the best, there must be a better way for the fastest speeds.


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## Layne123 (Mar 29, 2006)

Skip forward. More accurate ff and rev. 

On the Dish DVRs, the FF, Rev, and skip features were extremely accurate. I have found on D* the same features are extremely inaccurate.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

Earl, is it time for a new CED thread yet?


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

cabanaboy1977 said:


> Earl, is it time for a new CED thread yet?


Ya I was about to PM him and suggest the same thing. Only thing happening in this one is things getting rehashed.


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

How 'bout one on the blue ring-o-light.


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## morgantown (Nov 16, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> How 'bout one on the blue ring-o-light.


Congrats on the 1,000th post!

For the record -- I actually like the funky blue ring-thing. If they could just make it change colors...


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## Wolffpack (Jul 29, 2003)

Dang, I'm way too much a chatty-Kathy!


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## Clint Lamor (Nov 15, 2005)

Wolffpack said:


> Dang, I'm way too much a chatty-Kathy!


Hmmmm odd you didn't strike me as a Kathy.


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## cabanaboy1977 (Nov 16, 2005)

morgantown said:


> Congrats on the 1,000th post!
> 
> For the record -- I actually like the funky blue ring-thing. If they could just make it change colors...


They could make it a Mood Ring Light. Instead of it telling your mood it would tell you how close to a lockup it is


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