# Curiosity Question... Owned v. Leased



## mashandhogan (Dec 21, 2010)

What are the differences in these two statuses? I know you don't "own" leased eq and you can turn on/off owned equipment. Also, who do some people like to fork over $500 for owned equipment when you can get it for less and if something goes wrong, it is d*'s problem?


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

I never saw the allure of owning it, except you can mod at will and deactivate it when needed.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Being able to activate/deactivate is a big part of it. Some activate a spare unit when they have guests, then deactivate when they leave. Being able to install a bigger drive is nice, though I don't think it's as easy on say a HR24 as it was on other units. Plus you have the right to sell it if you ever want to.

DirecTV will still replace it if it breaks, but with a leased unit unless you have the protection plan.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Another reason is if you have an owned unit, and the protection plan, and it needs to be replaced you don't have a new 2 year commitment start when you activate the replacement.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

RunnerFL said:


> Another reason is if you have an owned unit, and the protection plan, and it needs to be replaced you don't have a new 2 year commitment start when you activate the replacement.


I think what you mean is "if you have an owned unit you MUST have the PP in order to avoid a 2 year commitment if it needs to be replaced and if you don't have the PP and they replace it, it would now be leased."

If it is leased and needs to be replaced with or without the PP there is no commitment.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> I think what you mean is "if you have an owned unit you MUST have the PP in order to avoid a 2 year commitment if it needs to be replaced."


No, I meant what I typed. You actually said the same thing I said, just differently.



TBlazer07 said:


> If it is leased and needs to be replaced with or without the PP there is no commitment.


Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


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## hilmar2k (Mar 18, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


That was not the case for me. I had a leased unit swapped out a while ago w/o a new commitment.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

It used to add a new commitment but that policy changed some time ago. Now it does not when replacing a faulty unit.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Why someone forks over $500 for owned equipment boggles my mind too. Someone once told me they wanted silver DVRs (HR20-700s) to match their other equipment so they bought them outright to get what they wanted. Others don't have good credit and find it a financially sound decision to avoid the large deposit and buy everything.

If D* will give you the equipment for free and you use it every day then it really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, except to avoid a commitment extension. For example that D10 you bought. Should you really have to agree to a year or two of programming because you turned it on? I don't think you should.

In my bedroom at my parents house there is a TV that only gets watched when I stay overnight there, which is a rare occasion. We got a box for it when they signed up but decided it was cheaper to own. We shut it off 6 months ago, eliminating $30 in mirroring fees so far. I picked up a D12 for $25 and re-used the card that was in it. The $5 we saved so far covers the gas to go get it and the rest is all profit.

If you have to pay for the lease then it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to pay $199 that you never get back when you can buy an owned HD DVR in the same price range. When you want to move on you sell it and get money back. Not the case with the HR10, but with the 20 and beyond series they can be found cheap enough to do it.

Look at all the threads who's end conclusion is that if you want a certain DVR then lease it at full price from an online retailer and send back what you currently have. I see that at more expensive than buying an owned unit. Usually $200 to get what you have now, then $200 to replace it with newer, and you still have someone else's property. For $400 you can buy an owned HR24 that you will be able to sell for $400 if you decide you want the next big thing next month.

To sum it up let me say this: The purpose of a corporation is to make money. D* doesn't spend millions to send up satellites and employ so many people to make us happy and feel good about themselves. They do it because we open our wallets and shell out the green. If they didn't make money by leasing they wouldn't do it. Same with the clichéd car dealership; they wouldn't want to lease you a car if they made more money selling it. That box you just sent back because you leased an HR24 gets the bugs shook out of it, PB&J fingerprints wiped off, scratches sharpied, and they lease it again for $200. Do that several times, which they do, and they have made much more than your measly $562.61 they would have got selling it.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

matt said:


> Why someone forks over $500 for owned equipment boggles my mind too.


You're *assuming* that is the correct pricing/cost, which has not been the case for a number of those folks with owned units - hundreds less than that amount in several cases.

The same issues come up with buy vs lease on various other items (cars, TVs, furniture, etc.) , and there are valid benefits and shortcomings on *both* sides of that discussion.

*Very few *subscribers actually have *owned* units - a small percentage - since then enacted leased units as the standard practice several years ago.

Given the choice, owning is preferred here.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Sure, but the OP said $500, and a owned unit directly from the ACDT is $562.61 with shipping and tax. The lady with the two silver DVRs bought them both from the ACDT. I also ran into someone else that had a "DIRECTV DVR with papers" as he called it that had bought it from the ACDT. Now what they can actually be bought for is a different story, which makes it more enticing to just get an owned in IMHO.


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> No, I meant what I typed. You actually said the same thing I said, just differently.
> 
> Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


Replacing defective leased equipment does not change your commitment regardless of the protection plan. If it did, then it was done incorrectly.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I believe you can also move your Owned DVR to another place such as a vacation home as several RVers have done and also people with vacation homes that go there for a month or so and want their Directv to come with them without having a separate account.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> That was not the case for me. I had a leased unit swapped out a while ago w/o a new commitment.


Then you got lucky, if it didn't extend your commitment. Every leased receiver I've had replaced resulted in the clock starting at 2 years again.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

raoul5788 said:


> Replacing defective leased equipment does not change your commitment regardless of the protection plan. If it did, then it was done incorrectly.


It always has..


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


A defective leased receiver is replaced without a new commitment. The only time a defective replacement causes a new commitment is when the defective receiver is owned and there is no PP as the replacement is a leased receiver.

Now, if you just replaced a receiver on your own accord, that will create a new commitment.

- Merg


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Then you got lucky, if it didn't extend your commitment. Every leased receiver I've had replaced resulted in the clock starting at 2 years again.


Then you got screwed by someone who didn't know the rules that apply to extending your commitment.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> Then you got lucky, if it didn't extend your commitment. Every leased receiver I've had replaced resulted in the clock starting at 2 years again.


If DirecTV provided you with the replacement it was not supposed to restart the commitment clock.

Just so there is not confusion, replacing a defective leased receiver does not trigger a 24 month commitment.

The only time this will happen is if the receiver is owned without the protection plan and DirecTV replaces it. Or, if you get the replacement on your own and deactivate the defective unit owned or not.

Mike


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## mashandhogan (Dec 21, 2010)

Yeah, I agree with you all. All of my leased recievers I have gotten for FREE (minus shipping). So, what you are saying if: If D* will not give you "free" leased equipment, then it would be better to own? Also, I have gotten lucky with the lease program so far. All of my recievers have been new, and I have never had to send one of them back (I have never replaced any)


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> It always has..


Perhaps for you. It shouldn't have.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

RunnerFL said:


> Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


 Absolutely not the case. All leased boxes are replaced without commitment (unless they screw up) but possibly with a $20 shipping fee. If your commitment was extended when replacing a leased box you need to email whatshername because it is an error.

As for the first part, yes, I know it was the same and I know exactly what you meant (which was correct) which is why I wrote it in a different way.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

I own some, I lease some .. I don't really care. I've been with DIRECTV since '96 and don't see myself leaving soon so it's kinda moot in my case.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

mashandhogan said:


> Yeah, I agree with you all. All of my leased recievers I have gotten for FREE (minus shipping). So, what you are saying if: If D* will not give you "free" leased equipment, then it would be better to own?


You are on the hook for repair if something goes wrong, and thats where it gets tricky.

If this isn't your one and only receiver you could add the protection plan the day it dies instead of right away, then wait out the 30 days limping by with your other ones. At this point, you are now $72 more than it would cost to lease (for this model).

Some people have the insurance anyway, so this is your call. Most DVRs will last several years without needing any work done to them, so you could go for a long time not having it. Once you do eventually need it, just look at that $72 as the cost of owning instead of leasing.

Say you were able to pick up an IRD for $100. $20 for a card, and you are set. They will last maybe three years before something going wrong.
Leased: $200
Owned: $120 + $72 PP after three years = $192
__
Basically breaking even.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

matt said:


> Say you were able to pick up an IRD for $100. $20 for a card, and you are set. They will last maybe three years before something going wrong.
> Leased: $200
> Owned: $120 + $72 PP after three years = $192
> __
> Basically breaking even.


Your math is little off Matt... PP is $72/yr, so after 3 years... $216...

However, you can also take the view that since the PP is per account and not per receiver, that you can divide the cost among each receiver. Of course, you can also lower the cost per receiver as the PP also covers more than just the receivers...

- Merg


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dpeters11 said:


> Being able to activate/deactivate is a big part of it. Some activate a spare unit when they have guests, then deactivate when they leave. Being able to install a bigger drive is nice, though I don't think it's as easy on say a HR24 as it was on other units. Plus you have the right to sell it if you ever want to.
> 
> DirecTV will still replace it if it breaks, but with a leased unit unless you have the protection plan.


On the 24-500s it's actually easier to install a large internal HDD. There is always that learning curve the first time you do it, but it's not hard at all. The 24-200 is the hardest of all the HRs I've added internals to. Gave up on that one quickly and stuck with an external.

Rich


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

The Merg said:


> A defective leased receiver is replaced without a new commitment.


It never has been for me and I've asked numerous times and always go thru the access card department to activate a replacement.

The last time I had to have a receiver replaced it was an owned receiver. I asked the person I was speaking with, from the access card department, to verify that it did not start a new 2 year commit ment. He responded saying "Oh, no sir that's only on leased equipment".

Commitment or not I could care less, I'm not going anywhere.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Doug Brott said:


> I own some, I lease some .. I don't really care. I've been with DIRECTV since '96 and don't see myself leaving soon so it's kinda moot in my case.


Ditto


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## mashandhogan (Dec 21, 2010)

I don't see much point in the PP, my first installer said it was pretty much pointless. I think I will just stick with CHEAP owned equipment if I buy any more owned (the D10 cost $20 + $20 for card)


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mashandhogan said:


> I don't see much point in the PP, my first installer said it was pretty much pointless. I think I will just stick with CHEAP owned equipment if I buy any more owned (the D10 cost $20 + $20 for card)


Anyone who had had a Dish/LNB, switch/SWiM, and/or HD DVR go out on them, only to have that completely addressed without having to pay anything might have an appreciation for the Protection Plan. 

It's a choice one has, which is a good thing.

I look at it as insurance for all my DirecTV equipment, which is something that is significant here...so in my case, the PP is prudent. Others may or may not find that to be applicable in their situation.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mashandhogan said:


> I don't see much point in the PP, my first installer said it was pretty much pointless. I think I will just stick with CHEAP owned equipment if I buy any more owned (the D10 cost $20 + $20 for card)


Nothing quite like relying on your friendly neighborhood installer for important information....:nono2:

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Anyone who had had a Dish/LNB, switch/SWiM, and/or HD DVR go out on them, only to have that completely addressed without having to pay anything might have an appreciation for the Protection Plan.
> 
> It's a choice one has, which is a good thing.
> 
> I look at it as insurance for all my DirecTV equipment, which is something that is significant here...so in my case, the PP is prudent. Others may or may not find that to be applicable in their situation.


Until their "situation" goes completely south.

Rich


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## PeteB (Apr 27, 2008)

From the other thread(s) I just started:

...is there any _downside_ to owning upgraded DVR's from WK when you have the Protection Plan?

Does a DVR have to be characterized as owned before/when it is activated?

I just activated the HR20 right after we first subscribed, thinking we could "own" it later on if the need arose. Now with two more coming tomorrow...​


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

PeteB said:


> From the other thread(s) I just started:
> 
> ...is there any _downside_ to owning upgraded DVR's from WK when you have the Protection Plan?


No, but you might want to consider the prices you pay at weaknees.com compared to what you'd pay if you bought an owned DVR off eBay or Craigslist and put your own large internal drive in it.



> Does a DVR have to be characterized as owned before/when it is activated?


From weaknees.com? I'm not really sure how you handle that. I can tell you if you send a leased HR to WK, I don't see how they could possibly turn that into an owned HR. If it was leased going to WK, I think you just plug it back in and let it reboot.

Now, if you buy the HR from WK and have the upgrade done by WK, that might be considered an owned HR. I just read their FAQ and there are mistakes in it. It states that any HR they sell "might be" leased. You have to convince the Access Card Team to list it as owned. If you can talk them into it and they list it as owned, if you return it and you don't have the PP, the replacement will be leased. If you do have the PP, the replacement will be still owned. But the thing is, you don't know if the ACT is going to go along with what WK says "might" happen.

I'm not sure if WK even has permission to upgrade the HRs. I think every new HR they sell, with the exception of the HR21-Pro, is leased. If those assumptions are correct, you're admitting to having an HR that has been internally altered as soon as you tell the ACT where you got the HR. That violates the TOS, which is something that happens all the time, but nobody calls up D* and admits it.



> I just activated the HR20 right after we first subscribed, thinking we could "own" it later on if the need arose. Now with two more coming tomorrow...


I'd think about what you're doing. You'll be able to reactivate the HR20 in it's leased state, but how do you think you're gonna get to own it?

Rich


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

A receiver "purchased" from Weaknees is a leased receiver. For all purposes, WK modifies receivers against the lease agreement set by DirecTV. I'm not quite sure how they get away with it.

If you send them a receiver to modify, they assume that it is an owned receiver, for which modification is allowed.

Once a receiver is "purchased" as a leased receiver, it will not become an owned receiver, except under very rare circumstances.

- Merg


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

RunnerFL said:


> It never has been for me and I've asked numerous times and always go thru the access card department to activate a replacement.
> 
> The last time I had to have a receiver replaced it was an owned receiver. I asked the person I was speaking with, from the access card department, to verify that it did not start a new 2 year commit ment. He responded saying "Oh, no sir that's only on leased equipment".
> 
> Commitment or not I could care less, I'm not going anywhere.


The CSR was correct though that the 2 year commitment only starts with a leased receiver activation. It is waived though if the activation is for a replacement for a defective leased receiver.

One issue that seems to occur is that when a replacement is ordered for a defective receiver, the CSR's don't flag it as a replacement. They just order a new receiver for the customer. When the receiver is then activated (and the old one deactivated), since it is a "new" receiver and not a replacement, it starts a new 2 year commitment.

- Merg


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

The Merg said:


> A receiver "purchased" from Weaknees is a leased receiver. For all purposes, WK modifies receivers against the lease agreement set by DirecTV. I'm not quite sure how they get away with it.


I think they "just do it". I know at one time that they didn't have a deal with D* about being allowed to do it. I used to know a couple guys at WK and one of them told me that. He's been gone for a while and a new bunch of people are there now.



> If you send them a receiver to modify, they assume that it is an owned receiver, for which modification is allowed.


And they get away with that because the HR is modified and sent back and the "owner" just plugs it in. I doubt if it takes long enough for the HR to even need be reactivated.



> Once a receiver is "purchased" as a leased receiver, it will not become an owned receiver, except under very rare circumstances.


The only way I could see that happening is if a person was allowed to pay full price for his HR after it was leased and I don't recall ever reading about that happening.

Rich


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## PeteB (Apr 27, 2008)

As I have always understood it, WeaKnees has some kind of license or special dispensation worked out with D* for doing these mods, whether for new sales or even customers' units sent in for upgrade.



rich584 said:


> No, but you might want to consider the prices you pay at weaknees.com compared to what you'd pay if you bought an owned DVR off eBay or Craigslist and put your own large internal drive in it.


Unless I grossly overestimate what this entails (software-wise), I really don't see gaining any knowledge of continuing use by figuring out how to do this myself.

And just taking a WAG at the price of an HR24 and a 2 TB drive, plus probably shipping for each, I don't think $450, shipping included, for all brand new hardware and a warranty is such a bad price. Plus, it's not me doing the upgrade for the first and second times; it's people who have ostensibly done it countless times.

Now, for the 1 TB HR20 that I did activate in the beginning (mid-2008), we did pay much more. I just didn't care because I didn't want to run out of space all the time like we did with the Scientific Atlanta units in Florida. And that plan held up so well! :sure:



rich584 said:


> I'd think about what you're doing. You'll be able to reactivate the HR20 in it's leased state, but how do you think you're gonna get to own it?


Well, I can only hope that my initial assumption is true, that I can call them on the phone and ask them to make it owned based on how much we paid (as WK site mentions). I didn't really think it mattered back then (nay, I thought leasing seemed "more protected" somehow), but I didn't know what the advantages were, either.

The unit in question is still active, I mean, I don't know what you mean by "reactivate".

How about this: how does a unit that has never been in a customer's hands, much less activated, and has never had calls to ACT placed on its behalf, go from the factory to being listed as "owned" with D*/ACT?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

Weaknees FAQ says:


> If you order an upgraded HR20/HR21/HR22/HR23 from weaKnees, *you may be able* to have DIRECTV characterize the unit as being owned. To do that, you must call 800-DIRECTV and ask for the access card department. Tell them that you ordered an HR20/HR21/HR22/HR23, give them the price and tell them that you want it to be characterized as being owned. In some cases, the price alone will be enough to have DIRECTV characterize the unit as purchased.


Seems pretty open to interpretation with no yes or no if it's owned. :nono2:


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

PeteB said:


> Well, I can only hope that my initial assumption is true, that I can call them on the phone and ask them to make it owned based on how much we paid (as WK site mentions). I didn't really think it mattered back then (nay, I thought leasing seemed "more protected" somehow), but I didn't know what the advantages were, either.
> 
> How about this: how does a unit that has never been in a customer's hands, much less activated, and has never had calls to ACT placed on its behalf, go from the factory to being listed as "owned" with D*/ACT?


It really doesn't matter what you paid for it from Weaknees. If you "purchased" a leased receiver then it is going to remain leased on your account. You can even see on their website the following info:


> Please note that DirecTV generally considers all new equipment activated after March, 2006 to be leased equipment.


As I stated, Weaknees performs these modifications without explicit approval from DirecTV. At one time, a rep from Weaknees did post here at DBSTalk and when asked directly how they make these modifications to leased receivers, the question was never answered.

If your leased/modified receiver fails, you're going to want to replace the harddrive before you have DirecTV replace it, especially if the failure is not due to the harddrive, as your replacement receiver is going to have a stock drive in it.

As for a receiver going from factory to being owned without being activated, there are ways that happens. MDU subscribers used to be required to purchase their equipment (as in own it) so those receivers are all owned. Also, DirecTV employees can get owned units as well.

And as Rich pointed out, you can opt to pay the full price for your receiver to buy it outright and make it owned.

- Merg


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

The Merg said:


> Your math is little off Matt... PP is $72/yr, so after 3 years... $216...
> 
> However, you can also take the view that since the PP is per account and not per receiver, that you can divide the cost among each receiver. Of course, you can also lower the cost per receiver as the PP also covers more than just the receivers...
> 
> - Merg


You missed the part where I said don't buy the PP until you need it. If you got three years out of the receiver until it quit, you wouldn't need it for three years, making it one $72 purchase.

If you had a failure on any other unit or part, yes you could look at that cost any way you want. In my little world I got a free HR10-250 that I used until the power supply went out, got a PP replacement, then sold the replacement and put a newer unit in it's place. I sold the unit for $175 and I had bought the protection plan for $72 and the newer unit for $100, so I figure that up as free PP for the year and a free upgrade. It's all in how you look at it.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

Yeah, I like the dealers on ebay selling new equipment who say "make sure to tell the agent activating the unit that it is owned."

Yeah, that'll work. :sure:


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

matt said:


> You missed the part where I said don't buy the PP until you need it. If you got three years out of the receiver until it quit, you wouldn't need it for three years, making it one $72 purchase.


Gotcha... Missed that line... 

- Merg


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

PeteB said:


> As I have always understood it, WeaKnees has some kind of license or special dispensation worked out with D* for doing these mods, whether for new sales or even customers' units sent in for upgrade.


I haven't talked to anyone at WK in a while. None of the guys I knew work there any more. I still kinda doubt that they have a license to open the boxes.



> Unless I grossly overestimate what this entails (software-wise), I really don't see gaining any knowledge of continuing use by figuring out how to do this myself.
> 
> And just taking a WAG at the price of an HR24 and a 2 TB drive, plus probably shipping for each, I don't think $450, shipping included, for all brand new hardware and a warranty is such a bad price. Plus, it's not me doing the upgrade for the first and second times; it's people who have ostensibly done it countless times.


I just looked at the prices for the 24s with a 2TB HDD and you're right, that's not a bad price.



> Now, for the 1 TB HR20 that I did activate in the beginning (mid-2008), we did pay much more. I just didn't care because I didn't want to run out of space all the time like we did with the Scientific Atlanta units in Florida. And that plan held up so well! :sure:


Did you manage to get that listed as owned?



> Well, I can only hope that my initial assumption is true, that I can call them on the phone and ask them to make it owned based on how much we paid (as WK site mentions). I didn't really think it mattered back then (nay, I thought leasing seemed "more protected" somehow), but I didn't know what the advantages were, either.


I'm sure we'll all be interested to find out how you make out. That should blow all the worries about opening the boxes away.



> The unit in question is still active, I mean, I don't know what you mean by "reactivate".


If the unit is still active, all you have to do is plug it in and boot it up. It will still be leased if you sent it to WK leased.



> How about this: how does a unit that has never been in a customer's hands, much less activated, and has never had calls to ACT placed on its behalf, go from the factory to being listed as "owned" with D*/ACT?


It doesn't. All D* DVRs since March of '06 are leased. Except for the 21 Pros and those DVRs used by MDU dwellers. And they had to buy the DVRs for the complete price of about $500. Also, D* employees receive owned DVRs, or some of them do. Those are the only ways to get owned DVRs straight from D*. You pay full price for the 21 Pros too.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> Weaknees FAQ says:
> 
> Seems pretty open to interpretation with no yes or no if it's owned. :nono2:


See where it says "That price alone" will cause the HR to be listed as owned? Why? Perhaps because WK buys them at a full or slightly discounted price? D*s gotta get that money somehow for it to be listed as owned.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

matt said:


> Yeah, I like the dealers on ebay selling new equipment who say "make sure to tell the agent activating the unit that it is owned."
> 
> Yeah, that'll work. :sure:


I get a kick out of the sellers who say they are selling them "for parts". What parts?

Rich


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Doug Brott said:


> I own some, I lease some .. I don't really care. I've been with DIRECTV since '96 and don't see myself leaving soon so it's kinda moot in my case.


This is true in many cases, however for some it is important that their contract NOT be extended (in error) when replacing a defective leased receiver. For example, if one plans on moving in the near future and wants to be able to continue watching TV for the next few months and doesn't want to get "surprised" with an (up to) $480 charge when they move the (erroneous) extension wouldn't be good. This would hit apartment residents who tend to be much more "mobile" then those living in private homes harder then the average homeowner who is more "permanent."

All the "I'm not going anywhere" aside, it is still wrong and specifically states there is no extension in the DirecTV training guides and CSR "Help" systems.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> It doesn't. All D* DVRs since March of '06 are leased. Except for the 21 Pros and those DVRs used by MDU dwellers. And they had to buy the DVRs for the complete price of about $500. Also, D* employees receive owned DVRs, or some of them do. Those are the only ways to get owned DVRs straight from D*. You pay full price for the 21 Pros too.
> 
> Rich


FTR, after July(?) 2009 (not sure of the exact month) mdu's are all on the lease model as well.

I think the fact that WK sells and modifies leased HR's openly pretty much shows DirecTV's attitude towards upgrading them despite their TOS prohibiting it or else you would have certainly heard/read over the years at least one person complaining that they were charged fees for modifying their boxes when they turned them in. I don't believe ANYONE has ever posted they were charged a fee. I would also think, if DirecTV objected to THEIR PROPERTY being modified by a 3rd party they would have given WK a bit of a hard time by now.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

rich584 said:


> I get a kick out of the sellers who say they are selling them "for parts". What parts?
> 
> Rich


The housings are still good sometimes, as are tuner cards. Or the "part" where you have protection plan and they didn't. :lol:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> FTR, after July(?) 2009 (not sure of the exact month) mdu's are all on the lease model as well.


That's correct, I should have mentioned that.



> I think the fact that WK sells and modifies leased HR's openly pretty much shows DirecTV's attitude towards upgrading them despite their TOS prohibiting it or else you would have certainly heard/read over the years at least one person complaining that they were charged fees for modifying their boxes when they turned them in. I don't believe ANYONE has ever posted they were charged a fee. I would also think, if DirecTV objected to THEIR PROPERTY being modified by a 3rd party they would have given WK a bit of a hard time by now.


The really odd thing is that WK is an authorized D* dealer.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

matt said:


> The housings are still good sometimes, as are tuner cards. Or the "part" where you have protection plan and they didn't. :lol:


Some of the sellers are just ignorant of D*'s policies and I don't have a problem with them. It's the sellers that know perfectly well that the units are leased and yet sell them anyway. Of course, I know you wouldn't do that. 

Rich


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## dlt4 (Oct 4, 2006)

hilmar2k said:


> That was not the case for me. I had a leased unit swapped out a while ago w/o a new commitment.


Same here.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dlt4 said:


> Same here.


And that's what should happen, but you've got to keep an eye on your account. Apparently it's very easy for a CSR to renew your commitment either by mistake or not knowing the rules.

Rich


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

So RunnerFL, do you now agree that replacing defective leased equipment doesn't change your commitment, or at least shouldn't?


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

RunnerFL said:


> Wrong, if it's leased and you have it replaced your 2 year commitment starts over again. Been there done that a few times myself.


Had my (leased) HR21 swapped out recently with an HR24... no 'two year' commitment. It's not so clear-cut. In my experience, it comes down to who you talk to, i.e., the CSR. Sweet-talking helps, too... been there a few times myself.


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

tweaked said:


> Had my (leased) HR21 swapped out recently with an HR24... no 'two year' commitment. It's not so clear-cut. In my experience, it comes down to who you talk to, i.e., the CSR. Sweet-talking helps, too... been there a few times myself.


A defective leased receiver is replaced without a commitment.

- Merg


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

tweaked said:


> Had my (leased) HR21 swapped out recently with an HR24... no 'two year' commitment. It's not so clear-cut. In my experience, it comes down to who you talk to, i.e., the CSR. Sweet-talking helps, too... been there a few times myself.


You don't have to Sweet Talk but it always helps to be Nice but you just have to explain the rules to the CSR and tell them to look it up or consult their Supervisor.

Won't be the First or the Last Time a CSR has got it wrong or doesn't fully understand their own rules.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

tweaked said:


> Had my (leased) HR21 swapped out recently with an HR24... no 'two year' commitment. It's not so clear-cut. In my experience, it comes down to who you talk to, i.e., the CSR. Sweet-talking helps, too... been there a few times myself.


 Actually it is very clear cut.

The following is from DirecTV's website (Link).

_*Is a commitment involved to receive the replacement equipment? What is the cost?*

No. There is no commitment required. The replacement equipment is leased with no commitment and the replacement equipment is free of charge. DIRECTV will replace any receivers and/or dish antenna that is currently active on the account that will no longer be compatible with the new broadcast methods._​
Mike


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

The Merg said:


> A defective leased receiver is replaced without a commitment.
> 
> - Merg


See why some car salesmen make so much money?

Rich


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## raott (Nov 23, 2005)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually it is very clear cut.
> 
> The following is from DirecTV's website (Link).
> 
> ...


D*'s inability to follow their own procedures due to "system issues" makes it not so clear cut.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

raott said:


> D*'s inability to follow their own procedures due to "system issues" makes it not so clear cut.


Whether or not the procedures are followed, the policy is very clear.

Getting the CSR to find the right screen and do the replacement correctly is whole different issue.

When talking to the CSR, or after the fact if it isn't done right, simply refer to their web page and their own policy and get the issue fixed. That may be easier said than done but there is no ambiguity in DirecTV's policy.

Mike


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually it is very clear cut.


My point was that the policy is not uniformly clear-cut with respect to CSR's, their understanding of it and the decisions they make.

In my most recent contact, I'd made it clear to the CSR that my HR21 was not defective; my intention was to 'swap-up' to the latest, greatest and all the while, avoid any commitment. A good disposition never hurts when dealing with those on the other end...


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

tweaked said:


> My point was that the policy is not uniformly clear-cut with respect to CSR's, their understanding of it and the decisions they make.
> 
> In my most recent contact, I'd made it clear to the CSR that my HR21 was not defective; my intention was to 'swap-up' to the latest, greatest and all the while, avoid any commitment. A good disposition never hurts when dealing with those on the other end...


I'm surprised that, one they allowed you to swap out a non-defective unit, and two that you got the receiver you asked for. :eek2:

I didn't know you just swap out a receiver anytime you wanted to. I though they would only address defective units.

I'd say you were very lucky in getting the CSR to promise you a HR24 and actually getting an HR24.

Mike


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

Mike Bertelson said:


> ...I'd say you were very lucky in getting the CSR to promise you a HR24 and actually getting an HR24....
> 
> Mike


Yep, one had nothing to do with the other. If they'd have asked for an HR21 they still would have received the 24...


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

tweaked said:


> Had my (leased) HR21 swapped out recently with an HR24... no 'two year' commitment. It's not so clear-cut. In my experience, it comes down to who you talk to, i.e., the CSR. Sweet-talking helps, too... been there a few times myself.





tweaked said:


> In my most recent contact, I'd made it clear to the CSR that my HR21 was not defective; my intention was to 'swap-up' to the latest, greatest and all the while, avoid any commitment.


I wouldn't trust a CSR's word on that as far as I could throw him/her. After it all was completed I hope you checked back with DirecTV to confirm no commitment was added because you're probably one of the very few (if any) people who have done a "I just want a new model" upgrade without having a defective receiver and got no commitment tacked on. That is absolutely NOT policy. Either you got lucky or have 2yrs tacked on you aren't aware of. :eek2:


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I didn't know you just swap out a receiver anytime you wanted to. I though they would only address defective units.
> 
> Mike


They will, but in that case it is that they are giving you an additional receiver and then deactivating one of yours. If the CSR put it in the system as a replacement, it was against their procedures, but worked out for the subscriber.

- Merg


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## TBoneit (Jul 27, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> You're *assuming* that is the correct pricing/cost, which has not been the case for a number of those folks with owned units - hundreds less than that amount in several cases.
> 
> The same issues come up with buy vs lease on various other items (cars, TVs, furniture, etc.) , and there are valid benefits and shortcomings on *both* sides of that discussion.
> 
> ...


On big ticket items I buy. I bought my first car in 73, I'm still driving the last new car I bought. I now drive a whopping 5 miles a day total round trip miles nowdays.

I didn't lease a satellite box until I switched to a HD DVR. At this point in time, looking back I'd most likely be ahead if I had bought rather than paying the lease fee....

OTOH if it breaks, I can pick up the phone, yada yada yada, broken, send me a new one.

With cars since I can run them until the wheels fall off, versus a HD DVR where changes in functionality could occur rapidly, it seemed leasing might be better. A 30 year old car can still run down the highway, the 8 track player might be obsolete though. The original HD DVRs forget about it.


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

TBoneit said:


> I didn't lease a satellite box until I switched to a HD DVR. At this point in time, looking back I'd most likely be ahead if I had bought rather than paying the lease fee....
> 
> OTOH if it breaks, I can pick up the phone, yada yada yada, broken, send me a new one..


You wuold pay for the box regardless. It would just be called an additional receiver fee. Lease/OWN has nothing to do with monthly costs at all.


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I'm surprised that, one they allowed you to swap out a non-defective unit, and two that you got the receiver you asked for.


That's the point. It's the CSR's knowledge or lack thereof with regard to replacement policy that either helps or hinder ones attempts at getting hold of a newer generation receiver, one that's not tagged as an upgrade. No doubt, CSR roulettes plays a significant part. The more detached and removed they are from policy, the easier it is to 'work it'.

With respect to asking for and receiving a particular receiver, the CSR I'd worked with had noted on the order that I'd required an HR24 (without any qualifications). When Directv drop-shipped my replacement Slimline dish, compression fittings, signal splitter, power inserter, RG-6 cable, F-connectors and non penetrating roof mount, the tech saw a reference to an HR24 in his notes and left that, too. He boxed up the HR21 and took it with him.

Neither drop shipments to customers nor the replacement of non-defective receivers is in line with current policy. After all was said and done, the Directv service supervisor for my area did mention this to me and although left unsaid, luck played a part.



TBlazer07 said:


> I wouldn't trust a CSR's word on that as far as I could throw him/her. After it all was completed I hope you checked back with DirecTV to confirm no commitment was added because you're probably one of the very few (if any) people who have done a "I just want a new model" upgrade without having a defective receiver and got no commitment tacked on. That is absolutely NOT policy. Either you got lucky or have 2yrs tacked on you aren't aware of.


So true. Having dealt with various CSR's since '98, it's obvious you can't always rely the information you're given. As a rule, accuracy's in question. As to the avoidance of a two year commitment, trust me, there's none.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

raoul5788 said:


> So RunnerFL, do you now agree that replacing defective leased equipment doesn't change your commitment, or at least shouldn't?


No, but I'm not going to spend my time arguing about it.


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

tweaked said:


> ...When Directv drop-shipped my replacement Slimline dish, compression fittings, signal splitter, power inserter, RG-6 cable, F-connectors and non penetrating roof mount, the tech saw a reference to an HR24 in his notes and left that, too....


D* shipped you a non-pen roof mount?


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## raoul5788 (May 14, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> No, but I'm not going to spend my time arguing about it.


Try reading the service agreement, it's in there.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

raoul5788 said:


> So RunnerFL, do you now agree that replacing defective leased equipment doesn't change your commitment, or at least shouldn't?





RunnerFL said:


> No, but I'm not going to spend my time arguing about it.


 If you could ask Doris, she'd tell you. Unfortunately she has an unlisted number.  :lol:


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

raoul5788 said:


> Try reading the service agreement, it's in there.


I've only found it in the Answer Center area of DirecTV's website.

While we have established definitively that it is DirecTV's policy not to extend the commitment for replacement receivers (whether or not it always happens is beside the point), I can't find anything in the Customer Agreement or the Lease Addendum that specifically spells it out.

Mike


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## The Merg (Jun 24, 2007)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I've only found it in the Answer Center area of DirecTV's website.
> 
> While we have established definitively that it is DirecTV's policy not to extend the commitment for replacement receivers (whether or not it always happens is beside the point), I can't find anything in the Customer Agreement or the Lease Addendum that specifically spells it out.
> 
> Mike


There isn't. In fact, the Equipment Lease Addendum specifically states that the user is responsible for any repair cost or replacement cost that may be necessary for a defective receiver. However, as pointed out, DirecTV's policy is to just replace at no cost.

- Merg


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I've only found it in the Answer Center area of DirecTV's website.
> 
> While we have established definitively that it is DirecTV's policy not to extend the commitment for replacement receivers (whether or not it always happens is beside the point), I can't find anything in the Customer Agreement or the Lease Addendum that specifically spells it out.
> 
> Mike


 From a previous life I could actually post a copy the official rule from a training manual that states in part and paraphrased "defective leased receiver replacement ...... no renewal of current agreement required" but I don't think that would be permitted. Even with that I don't think RunnerFL would admit it was the case. :lol:


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

dsw2112 said:


> D* shipped you a non-pen roof mount?


As it turned out, when the tech came by to drop off the equipment, I'd explained to him that I was going to be relocating the dish form its current under-eve mount to a flat portion on my roof. I'd asked, "... hey, by chance do you have any non penetrating roof mounts on board?" Did I mention the word 'luck'? It was a very pleasant surprise to have had that thrown in as well, at no cost.

Hello, Directv... can you hear me, now? Thank you!


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

tweaked said:


> As it turned out, when the tech came by to drop off the equipment, I'd explained to him that I was going to be relocating the dish form its current under-eve mount to a flat portion on my roof. I'd asked, "... hey, by chance do you have any non penetrating roof mounts on board?" Did I mention the word 'luck'? It was a very pleasant surprise to have had that thrown in as well, at no cost.
> 
> Hello, Directv... can you hear me, now? Thank you!


Ok, so D* didn't actually ship one to you. I'd say "luck" was key to almost everything you've posted in this thread. A non-pen mount should be an additional cost. The problem is that many will read your posts and think that all of this is par for the course :nono:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

dsw2112 said:


> Ok, so D* didn't actually ship one to you. I'd say "luck" was key to almost everything you've posted in this thread. A non-pen mount should be an additional cost. The problem is that many will read your posts and think that all of this is par for the course :nono:


OK, I gotta ask. How does a non-penetrating mount work and is it as stable as the normal mounts?

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Matt, I got the email notification with the mount link, but it doesn't show up on the thread. What happened?

Rich


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## Shades228 (Mar 18, 2008)

Could have been a PM reply to your post.


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## matt (Jan 12, 2010)

I got confused. I'll post it again.

A non-pen works like this picture:









It's basically a metal base with a pole in the middle you secure with cinder blocks. Dish network used one down the road from me, but it's just laying on top of the grass. It doesn't look very secure, but it would probably be fine on a flat roof.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

matt said:


> I got confused. I'll post it again.
> 
> A non-pen works like this picture:
> 
> ...


I can't believe that wouldn't take off in 50 mile winds. And the higher the building the worst the wind is. That dish is gonna act as sail on a boat.

Rich


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## dsw2112 (Jun 13, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I can't believe that wouldn't take off in 50 mile winds. And the higher the building the worst the wind is. That dish is gonna act as sail on a boat.
> 
> Rich


They actually work really well. You'd be surprised what it takes to move a non-pen mount that was properly installed.


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

dsw2112 said:


> Ok, so D* didn't actually ship one to you. I'd say "luck" was key to almost everything you've posted in this thread. A non-pen mount should be an additional cost. The problem is that many will read your posts and think that all of this is par for the course :nono:


With the exception of the roof mount, all the components were dropped. The "luck" factor I've mentioned several times, applies to fact that I was even able to have gear drop-shipped to my home and having a non penetrating roof mount thrown in. With respect to the overall transaction, I did mention that it's not in line with current policy (read: not par for the course). Hopefully, not too many folks here will read into it otherwise.

Luck, when combined with good timing, good manners and a good deal of charm can go a long way ... worked for me. Again, thanks Directv


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## Davenlr (Sep 16, 2006)

matt said:


> Dish network used one down the road from me, but it's just laying on top of the grass. It doesn't look very secure, but it would probably be fine on a flat roof.


I have one in my front yard just sitting on three cinder blocks (two in front, one in back), with just one cinder block holding it down. It has kept a 4 foot offset KU dish pointed at AMC21 for a long time now, through several storms and wind. Have never had to repoint it.
I have the dishes bottom lip mounted to two hinges, with a vertical EL adjustment rod, rather than the pole, however. So I have to use the whole mount to adjust the AZ.


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## tweaked (Jul 1, 2008)

rich584 said:


> OK, I gotta ask. How does a non-penetrating mount work and is it as stable as the normal mounts?
> 
> Rich


Works great. Around here, the maximum wind gusts rarely exceed 50 or so knots. With the mount properly located and loaded down with cinder blocks, its weight can exceed 250 lbs, and that's only using 8 or so blocks (like the setup I'm using). Some mounts can accommodate 12 or more. At those weights, not much is going to move, even with the larger surface area of a Slimline dish. With a couple monopoles attached, it's a near, rock solid solution. Also, it's easier to relocate than other surface mounting alternatives (should that need arise in the future).


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## trainman (Jan 9, 2008)

Another data point: I have one on top of a 3-story apartment building, on a roof that's pitched at about 15 degrees. It's rock-solid, even in the Santa Ana winds that blow through here at times.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

Dish mounts and a stability are discussion for another thread please. 

Mike


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## HDTVFreak07 (Sep 12, 2007)

richierich said:


> I believe you can also move your Owned DVR to another place such as a vacation home as several RVers have done and also people with vacation homes that go there for a month or so and want their Directv to come with them without having a separate account.


Really? I don't think so. My DVR is still leased and I was able to take it to the summer home during the warmer season and bring it back home during the colder season. Just one DirecTV account.


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## mashandhogan (Dec 21, 2010)

Be sure to vote http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=190331


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

.... and, let's continue discussion there as well.


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