# HR2x/R22 0x395: Is your Hard Drive loud?



## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

New version .. New poll .. Enjoy!

If you have 0x395 (or higher) what do you think?


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

Carryover from other thread, was posting when it closed, luckily back saved my post.



bobcamp1 said:


> All HR20s, huh?
> 
> After reading all these posts, I sense a pattern. I don't know if this would make the new poll way too complicated, but adding in model numbers for the DVRs would help.


#1 - 700, original, replaced HDTivo
#2 - 100, was replaced with the same model last week. 
#3 - 700, recently received ~ 4 - 5 months ago.

So #2 and 3 are refurbished. I own #1.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I don't notice it on my HR22, but my HR20-100 is loud. Partly could be environment, the 20 is in the bedroom.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Assuming the posters are reporting this with the National Release firmware version 0395....added information that would be helpful...

1) HD DVR Model Number
2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)?
3) For those with *owned* HD DVR units - did you replace the hard drive?
4) For those with *owned *HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "old drive / model number"?
5) For those with *owned* HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "new replacement drive / model number"?


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

HR23/HR20 are not audible.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

This is a Quote from bobcamp1:

"All HR20s, huh?

After reading all these posts, I sense a pattern. I don't know if this would make the new poll way too complicated, but adding in model numbers for the DVRs would help."

I have been asking everyone to Post what model DVR they have so we can see if they are all older HR20s or whatever!!!

Please Post your DVR's Model Number so we can see if it is just certain models!!!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

richierich said:


> This is a Quote from bobcamp1:
> 
> "All HR20s, huh?
> 
> ...


*SEE POST #4.*


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

I somehow missed Post #4!!!

How could that be? Oh well, at least we agree that we need to see if there is a Pattern going on here. I would say get rid of your HR20 DVRs and your Thrashing will probably go away.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

BubblePuppy said:


> I'm sure not everyone.


Assume you meant not everyone has 0395...

But most do, and all will very soon....


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## BubblePuppy (Nov 3, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assume you meant not everyone has 0395...
> 
> But most do, and all will very soon....


Good point..I just deleted my post.


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the posters are reporting this with the National Release firmware version 0395....added information that would be helpful...
> 
> 1) HD DVR Model Number
> 2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)?
> ...


1. HR20-700
2. Yes, this has been going on for about 4-6 months now. I assumed my DVR was just slowly dying.
3. I own it, but I haven't modified it at all.
4. N/A
5. N/A

The drive noise is terribly annoying as the unit is in my bedroom. Again, as other have stated, it just sounds like the hard drive starts thrashing for no real reason. Does it about every 30 seconds for about 5 seconds, maybe 10.

I thought it might have been a fan or something like that, but it doesn't appear to be. Just sounds like the hard drive is mashing away.

Would DirecTV replace my unit, even though I own it?

Forgot to mention I have an HR-22 and a regualr DVR (don't know the model number) and neither of them have the same issue.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

ewto16 said:


> Would DirecTV replace my unit, even though I own it?


First of all - thank you for posting *all your information *as requested.

If you have the protection plan, yes, they will replace the unit. The only issue there, of course, is you have no way of knowing or specifying what replacement unit you will get. But if it bothers you enough, it might be worth taking that small risk.

Also, if you are eligible for that replacement...you could certainly emphasize that others have reported problems with that model and you do NOT want to get the same model as a replacement.


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

1) HR20-700
2) Yes (started with 0x034C update)
3) N/A
4) N/A
5) N/A

Our 2 R22s do not have loud hard drives.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the posters are reporting this with the National Release firmware version 0395....added information that would be helpful...
> 
> 1) HD DVR Model Number
> 2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)?
> ...


1A) HR20-700, owned, original unit, a few years old
2A) Yes
3A) No, but seriously thinking about it now, other things took higher fund priority

1B) HR20-100, replaced another HR20-100 around 1-22-10, leased
2B) Yes on both the old and new HR20

1C) HR20-700, leased, received August 2009
2C) Yes



hdtvfan0001 said:


> Also, if you are eligible for that replacement...you could certainly emphasize that others have reported problems with that model and you do NOT want to get the same model as a replacement.


I haven't replaced them because there are programs on there I want to keep. I requested specifically for the models with OTA capability and was able to get them. I have a feeling if I need to replace them again I will ask for a newer model with the OTA box add on (forgot the name of it).


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## billsharpe (Jan 25, 2007)

No, hard drive has been quiet since leased 1/07. It's in the family room and my hearing is declining, at least according to my wife, but I can't hear anything even when I put my ear to the receiver itself.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ewto16 said:


> 1. HR20-700
> 2. Yes, this has been going on for about 4-6 months now. I assumed my DVR was just slowly dying.
> 3. I own it, but I haven't modified it at all.
> 4. N/A
> ...


Why don't you just replace the internal drive? You own the 20-700 and it's not that difficult to do. All five of my owned 20-700s have Seagate Barracuda 1.5TB HDDs in them and they are quite quiet. You can purchase that model for a little more than a $100 on Amazon. If that doesn't solve your problem, go the replacement route (if you belong to the PP). I have three other 20-700s that are leased and have Seagate 1.5 eSATAs on them and they are silent too. As are my three 21-700s and my 21-200.

Certainly sounds like you have a bad HDD in you unit, doesn't it? How long can you put up with something like that?

Rich


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## Car1181 (Mar 30, 2006)

HR20 has been loud since the previous national release. So far I have noticed no change with this release, it's still loud. All other receivers are quiet.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mx6bfast said:


> I requested specifically for the models with OTA capability and was able to get them. I have a feeling if I need to replace them again I will ask for a newer model with the OTA box add on (forgot the name of it).


That could be addressed with HR21 -HR23 units with an AM21 OTA tuner on top to match your HR20 capabilities. They were providing AM21 units for some other folks getting newer units where OTA was specified - they asked for it and managed to get that.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Car1181 said:


> HR20 has been loud since the previous national release. So far I have noticed no change with this release, it's still loud. All other receivers are quiet.


I think it's about time for people with "thrashers" to admit that they have bad HDDs. If all your other receivers are quiet, doesn't that tell you that something major is wrong with your "thrasher"? The only thing you can do is replace it with an eSATA or if you own it, drop a new internal into it. Or you could play "replacement roulette" with it, that's always fun.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I think it's about time for people with "thrashers" to admit that they have bad HDDs. If all your other receivers are quiet, doesn't that tell you that something major is wrong with your "thrasher"? The only thing you can do is replace it with an eSATA or if you own it, drop a new internal into it. Or you could play "replacement roulette" with it, that's always fun.
> 
> Rich


One of the reasons it would be good to know the "old" and "new" drives (for those who have done replacements) is simply to see any pattern, and also to determine if the new drives met standards.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

1) HD DVR Model Number
2 x HR20-100
1 x HR20-700

2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)?
Yes

3) For those with *owned* HD DVR units - did you replace the hard drive?
Yes, all 3 - didn't help

4) For those with *owned *HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "old drive / model number"?
2 x WD3200JS (-100's)
1 x WD3200AVBS (-700)

5) For those with *owned* HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "new replacement drive / model number"?
Western Digital Green Models: WD10EARS 1 TB 64mb buffer & 2 x 750gig 32mb buffer WD7500AADS

I also tried a 750gig Seagate drive (not sure of the model number) that I had "in stock" but it's HEAD SEEKS were 3x louder then the "thrashing" that was occurring. Head seeking sound (more high pitched "squeeky" sort of sound) is totally different then the "thrashing" activity sound. All three boxes "function" perfectly. No reboots, locups etc.

Edit: Other then the "noise" I have NEVER had any audio or video issues on any of the DVR's (no video breakups that many were reporting along with this issue).


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Why don't you just replace the internal drive? You own the 20-700 and it's not that difficult to do. All five of my owned 20-700s have Seagate Barracuda 1.5TB HDDs in them and they are quite quiet. You can purchase that model for a little more than a $100 on Amazon. If that doesn't solve your problem, go the replacement route (if you belong to the PP). I have three other 20-700s that are leased and have Seagate 1.5 eSATAs on them and they are silent too. As are my three 21-700s and my 21-200.
> 
> Certainly sounds like you have a bad HDD in you unit, doesn't it? How long can you put up with something like that?
> 
> Rich


I might. I've not looked into it as I assumed it might be difficult to do. I wasn't sure how I would get the DirecTV OS onto the new drive.



rich584 said:


> I think it's about time for people with "thrashers" to admit that they have bad HDDs. If all your other receivers are quiet, doesn't that tell you that something major is wrong with your "thrasher"? The only thing you can do is replace it with an eSATA or if you own it, drop a new internal into it. Or you could play "replacement roulette" with it, that's always fun.
> 
> Rich


I find it interesting that we all sort of started reporting having bad HDs at the same time. That doesn't really make a lot of sense. It isn't unbelivable to think that something changed on the reciver that causes the issue.

I would think that if the HD was going bad, I would have noticed it as a gradual issue over time. Instead, it all of the sudden occured one day and stays at the constant rate of thrashing. It doesn't flucuate at all, like a failing drive might.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> One of the reasons it would be good to know the "old" and "new" drives (for those who have done replacements) is simply to see any pattern, and also to determine if the new drives met standards.


I agree and we've been asking for that info for quite some time. Doesn't seem to get thru to many people, unfortunately. That last poll on this subject was extremely telling and I don't expect this one to be any different. I don't think the age of the HR matters as much as the way the HDDs sound and I don't think we're gonna see much of a pattern. I've got 20-700s from Mexico that play faultlessly and don't make enough noise to be noticeable much less annoying and you can't get an older HR than the 20-700s from Mexico.

From what I've read the "thrashing" seems to be on HDDs in every model HR and we never ran up against this sort of thing before the DLB NR. That NR seemed to have an adverse effect on more than HDDs than the average NR. For whatever reason. But that last poll on this subject showed a minuscule number of "noisy" HDDs compared to all the HRs in service. If I had a noisy HDD, I'd get rid of it, that seems like the obvious thing to do. Waiting for software, firmware or underwear to fix a noisy HDD is, obviously, a fruitless task.

For three year plus, we've seen NRs take out a few HRs or HDDs. It happens and it's probably gonna keep happening. The best thing to do is bite the bullet and change the noisy HDD in some manner. I think.

Rich


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> First of all - thank you for posting *all your information *as requested.
> 
> If you have the protection plan, yes, they will replace the unit. The only issue there, of course, is you have no way of knowing or specifying what replacement unit you will get. But if it bothers you enough, it might be worth taking that small risk.
> 
> Also, if you are eligible for that replacement...you could certainly emphasize that others have reported problems with that model and you do NOT want to get the same model as a replacement.


I do not have the PP.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

ewto16 said:


> I might. I've not looked into it as I assumed it might be difficult to do. I wasn't sure how I would get the DirecTV OS onto the new drive.


It is very easy to exchange you internal drive with a new one and when you boot the DVR back up it automatically formats it for you. All you have to do then is re-input your Series Links and other information back in as if you have a new DVR!!! Took me about 20 minutes.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> One of the reasons it would be good to know the "old" and "new" drives (for those who have done replacements) is simply to see any pattern, and also to determine if the new drives met standards.


What are these standards? Did they change since the HR20 was first introduced? If the standards did change, then I think anyone with a drive out of spec should be entitled to a new one.

I still think we're asking the wrong question. I know a number of people hate hearing their hard drive grind away. A new hard drive will fix that. But the important thing to me is whether or not any video freezes resulted from the thrashing. It's my contention that the latest NR fixed the freezes (which is all that matters to me) but not the thrashing. I'm sure the same thrashing is occurring on new drives as well, but it's not audible.

For the sake of science, my old noisy drive in my HR20-700 was Seagate DB35.1 300GB Model ST3300831SCE, Firmware 3.03, Date Code 06344 (whatever that means - maybe 2006, week 34, day 4). It was not noisy before 0368. It was very noisy after 0368. It was much less noisy on 0395, and the video freezes ceased.

HERE are the specs for my old drive from the Seagate website. Note near the end of table 1, the service life is rated at 5 years. That means mine should last at least until the middle of 2011.

Key Features and Benefits

Capacities up to 250GB
ATA/100 and SATA interfaces
Multiple stream recording capability-up to 10 television streams at once
Up to 250 hours of storage for standard television or 125 hours for high-definition content (DB35.3 Series)
Operating acoustics as low as 2.3 bels for near-silent operation
Unmatched reliability for extended system field life

BTW, I didn't vote in the poll because I could care less about the noise. The important thing is the freezes, which have apparently been fixed.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I think it's about time for people with "thrashers" to admit that they have bad HDDs. If all your other receivers are quiet, doesn't that tell you that something major is wrong with your "thrasher"? The only thing you can do is replace it with an eSATA or if you own it, drop a new internal into it. Or you could play "replacement roulette" with it, that's always fun.
> 
> Rich


 Yah, uhuh, 7 bad drives, 4 new out of the package over 4 months from 2 suppliers and 3 that came in the DVR. I DO have bad luck but that's just not possible. :eek2:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ewto16 said:


> I might. I've not looked into it as I assumed it might be difficult to do. I wasn't sure how I would get the DirecTV OS onto the new drive.


The OS is not on the HDDs. It resides on a flash drive and will format the new HDD as soon as the HR reboots after installation. It's not that difficult to change internals on owned HRs or add an eSATA to leased HRs.



> I find it interesting that we all sort of started reporting having bad HDs at the same time. That doesn't really make a lot of sense. It isn't unbelivable to think that something changed on the reciver that causes the issue.
> 
> I would think that if the HD was going bad, I would have noticed it as a gradual issue over time. Instead, it all of the sudden occured one day and stays at the constant rate of thrashing. It doesn't flucuate at all, like a failing drive might.


That DLB NR seems to have put a strain on some HDDs and they've never recovered. Every NR seems to have some adverse effect on some HRs, we've just never seen as many as that DLB NR produced. It happened suddenly because of that. Your logic is correct, normally you would see a gradual decline in the performance or noise of an HDD. We just got hit by something out of the norm.

Rich


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

HR21 DVR in my bedroom and I've got very sensitive ears. It does not bother me a bit.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Yah, uhuh, 7 bad drives, 4 new out of the package over 4 months from 2 suppliers and 3 that came in the DVR. I DO have bad luck but that's just not possible. :eek2:


I've got sixteen HDDs in total and none make any annoying noise. And I do have bad luck too. What you're seeing is, obviously possible, you're seeing it. The why of it eludes me, but it is possible. And it doesn't seem as if you've changed any HRs when they could also be the cause.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

ewto16 said:


> I do not have the PP.


Bummer, they'll exchange it for a leased unit. Try replacing the HDD before you go thru that and sign up with the PP as soon as you can. Those few bucks a month are worth every penny.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> Yah, uhuh, 7 bad drives, 4 new out of the package over 4 months from 2 suppliers and 3 that came in the DVR. I DO have bad luck but that's just not possible. :eek2:


What kind of drives - manufacturer/model are those new units?


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

richierich said:


> It is very easy to exchange you internal drive with a new one and when you boot the DVR back up it automatically formats it for you. All you have to do then is re-input your Series Links and other information back in as if you have a new DVR!!! Took me about 20 minutes.


Series links?


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

rich584 said:


> The OS is not on the HDDs. It resides on a flash drive and will format the new HDD as soon as the HR reboots after installation. It's not that difficult to change internals on owned HRs or add an eSATA to leased HRs.
> 
> That DLB NR seems to have put a strain on some HDDs and they've never recovered. Every NR seems to have some adverse effect on some HRs, we've just never seen as many as that DLB NR produced. It happened suddenly because of that. Your logic is correct, normally you would see a gradual decline in the performance or noise of an HDD. We just got hit by something out of the norm.
> 
> Rich


Can I add an eSata drive to a HR-20? How big of a drive is in it now? Would adding a drive prevent the one inside from spinning all the damn time?


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I've got sixteen HDDs in total and none make any annoying noise. And I do have bad luck too. What you're seeing is, obviously possible, you're seeing it. The why of it eludes me, but it is possible. And it doesn't seem as if you've changed any HRs when they could also be the cause.
> 
> Rich


 There is nothing wrong with the DVR's.
There is nothing wrong with the hard-drives. 
They all "function" flawlessy, no dropouts, no random reboots, no freezes, and everything records on time so I'll live with the noise rather then take a chance on what I might get in place of it.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

ewto16 said:


> Series links?


What TiVo fans would call Season Passes... DIRECTV calls series links.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> 1) HD DVR Model Number
> 2 x HR20-100
> 1 x HR20-700
> 
> ...


This post is interesting for two reasons:

1. Your "old" hard drives aren't the normal model. They're Western Digitals, when they are supposed to be Barracudas.

2. You're still getting hard drive noise, even though you replaced the drives. Don't know if they are truly quieter drives. But all your DVRs are HR20s.

EDIT: Your replacements are supposed to be very quiet. I found good data to support that on the WD10EARS.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mdavej said:


> What are these standards? Did they change since the HR20 was first introduced? If the standards did change, then I think anyone with a drive out of spec should be entitled to a new one.
> 
> I'm sure the same thrashing is occurring on new drives as well, but it's not audible.
> 
> ... Note near the end of table 1, the service life is rated at 5 years. That means mine should last at least until the middle of 2011.


1. I'm pretty sure that there are authorized substitutions for the hard drives. So not all HR20-700s would be the same, for example. But they wouldn't have used the same model hard drive across different model DVRs.

2. I used to think thrashing was occurring everywhere, but only some could hear it. But I'm not so sure. In a PC, a thrashing hard drive means you don't have enough RAM and the page file is constantly being accessed. Does anyone other if there is less RAM in the HR20?

3. If you believe that number, I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.  Trust me -- that number has no correlation to real-world performance. But I don't think that's the issue here. Yet.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> There is nothing wrong with the DVR's.
> There is nothing wrong with the hard-drives.
> They all "function" flawlessy, no dropouts, no random reboots, no freezes, and everything records on time so I'll live with the noise rather then take a chance on what I might get in place of it.


My sentiments exactly.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> What kind of drives - manufacturer/model are those new units?


I posted it right after you requested that information. See post #21 in this thread.

Are the drives new? Yes, all of them. Are the DVR's new? Obviously not, they are all HR20's.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

bobcamp1 said:


> This post is interesting for two reasons:
> 
> 1. Your "old" hard drives aren't the normal model. They're Western Digitals, when they are supposed to be Barracudas.
> 
> ...


There is all different kinds of hard drive noise. In 30+ years of dealing with them I've learned to understand their "language." :lol:

A "noisy" drive (compared to the "thrashing" drive) has a much higher pitched "seeking" sound which is annoying as it sounds like scraping your nails on a blackboard.

The Seagate drive I tried (and eventually put in my PC) had that higher pitched head seeking sounds which sounds terrible even under "normal" activity. The "noise" I experience in the HD-DVR's is a sudden huge amount of "frantic" activity that happens every few hours and can last for 1-5+ minutes then stops for another few hours. It is MUCH LOWER in tone then a hard drive that has noisy head seeking sounds and only happens periodically with a few hours between each "event."

I posted the sound of one of my noisy drives from about 8" away from the HR20-100 recorded on an iPhone using voice recorder. The "clicks" you hear in the background is my desk chair. Here: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2312897&postcount=405


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I think it's about time for people with "thrashers" to admit that they have bad HDDs. If all your other receivers are quiet, doesn't that tell you that something major is wrong with your "thrasher"? The only thing you can do is replace it with an eSATA or if you own it, drop a new internal into it. Or you could play "replacement roulette" with it, that's always fun.
> 
> Rich


The problem is it's NOT the drive. When all three DVRs (two different models) start having the prblem at the exact same time AND two of them have new drives, it's NOT the drive.

If it was a bad drive, there would be other symptoms, but this has already been hashed a million times. Obviously (going by the current poll) 1/3 of the people don't all have bad drives.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> There is all different kinds of hard drive noise. In 30+ years of dealing with them I've learned to understand their "language." :lol:
> 
> A "noisy" drive (compared to the "thrashing" drive) has a much higher pitched "seeking" sound which is annoying as it sounds like scraping your nails on a blackboard.
> 
> ...


That is amazing information (and I listened to the recording twice at high volume to catch every nuance).

Thank you.

That is definitely *not* the "chirp", "grind", "thrash", or other kinds of related sounds I've heard myself in dealing with hard drives for over 20 years as well. Most of those other sounds came from defective drive heads, inadequate power to the drive motor, defective platters, etc.

To my ears...its a unique sound that I can hear, but can't identify definitively.

The volume of the sound is impossible to discern in how it would sound to you, but you gave a good idea on that.


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## finaldiet (Jun 13, 2006)

Neither HR 20 hard drive audible.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> The problem is it's NOT the drive.


You've made that claim 1000 times, and the FACT is your statement simply has not been proven with any level of certainty.

One person has evidence supporting it, and the next one comes along and clearly shows the opposite.

Hopefully in this thread, some viable evidence (such as what TBlazer posted in several posts now) helps get us down to some form of clear short list, so that ALL of you with the problem can have a *path* to get this issue licked once and for all.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

finaldiet said:


> Neither HR 20 hard drive audible.


Something else everyone has to understand about this "problem." Just because you don't hear it at any one moment doesn't mean it doesn't happen when you not paying attention to it. It happens sporadically at random times, usually hours apart and only lasts a few minutes. It can't be heard over the normal listening volume of a TV but when the room is quiet (like my bedroom at night) and you're there you'll know (IF) it happens. Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also, from reading this thread and the previous one, it seems the MAJOR occurrence is with HR20 models not 21's or 22's or 23's. It may very well be the way the drives are mounted in the specific boxes that cause it to "resonate" more. I have noticed if I push down on the top of the box during the "thrashing" above where the drive is mounted the sound almost disappears but I still FEEL the vibrations of the "thrashing." Maybe the drive mounting is simply in need of better damping. They do seem to be "free floating" in the DVR's.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that at some point a few months back drive ACTIVITY increased markedly. Why one box or another makes it more "obvious" is the question.


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## cartrivision (Jul 25, 2007)

I often hear lots of thumping that is typically associated with large back and forth movements of the read/write head. The sounds of the read/write head movement used to be much more quiet and subtle.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> Something else everyone has to understand about this "problem." Just because you don't hear it at any one moment doesn't mean it doesn't happen when you not paying attention to it. It happens sporadically at random times, usually hours apart and only lasts a few minutes. It can't be heard over the normal listening volume of a TV but when the room is quiet (like my bedroom at night) and you're there you'll know (IF) it happens. Just because you don't hear it doesn't mean it isn't there.
> 
> Also, from reading this thread and the previous one, it seems the MAJOR occurrence is with HR20 models not 21's or 22's or 23's. It may very well be the way the drives are mounted in the specific boxes that cause it to "resonate" more. I have noticed if I push down on the top of the box during the "thrashing" above where the drive is mounted the sound almost disappears but I still FEEL the vibrations of the "thrashing." Maybe the drive mounting is simply in need of better damping. They do seem to be "free floating" in the DVR's.
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that at some point a few months back drive ACTIVITY increased markedly. Why one box or another makes it more "obvious" is the question.


I have gained a quick respect and admiration of your information and details here in this new thread.

As many have stated....you can either complain repeatedly about something, or you can contribute to find out the issue and help solve the problem. Your contributions to the latter approach are appreciated.

There is no simple answer or quick fix. There is no silver bullet.

Your observations in the post above in particular continue to demonstrate a "Let's get this solved" approach..

Having dealt with numerous and extensive diagnostic problem solving for years myself, I recognized early on that this hard drive "noise" issue required a methodical collection of data and "process of elimination" approach to perhaps narrow down the source(s) and solution(s).

The previous thread was extensively centered around debate over who heard what, or if they heard what, rather than a solution approach.

My take is we have more valuable information in this brief new thread than we had in the months of back-and forth in that old thread. I include myself in prolonging that old dialog.

There are many well-meaning folks here who sincerely want to help those with a problem. Sometimes we come up short, and we certainly don't always have the answers.

It now appears that many of us are in agreement on the following items based on firm evidence:

1) While most people simply have no such symptoms, the problem is real, exists, and others have seen it for some time.

2) The HR20-700 (and perhaps HR20-100 to a much lesser degree) is *almost* exclusively at the root of the reported devices showing some form of "excess noise" at some user locations.

3) There are multiple names, forms, and descriptions around what has been reported, but agreement that the "noise" exists and is "beyond normal sounds" expected in the HD DVRs named.

4) The problem seems to have primarily been sourced to a time coinciding when the 0-368 national firmware version was released - but no conclusive evidence that the firmware itself caused the problem(s).

5) Some folks have replaced hard disk drives that seemed to make their problems go away, while others did the very same thing and the problems seemed to continue (at least to some degree) for them.

6) The *actual proven source *of the problem is still unknown.

This may not seem like good news or progress...but we've actually come a long way toward narrowing things down....so in that respect...the time has been well spent.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

HD is very loud. NR did not make it any better and although it is a bit too early to tell for sure, may have actually made it a bit worse.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

sonofjay said:


> HD is very loud. NR did not make it any better and although it is a bit too early to tell for sure, may have actually made it a bit worse.


 Is it "loud" 24/7 or just at random intervals? Listen to the MP3 file attached to the message in this link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2312897&postcount=405

Is that what you're hearing?


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> To my ears...its a unique sound that I can hear, but can't identify definitively.
> 
> The volume of the sound is impossible to discern in how it would sound to you, but you gave a good idea on that.


 Let's just say it's loud enough to keep an "older" guy, who is a light sleeper with some age related hearing loss awake even though it is inside a closed armoire cabinet and resting on 4 pair of sweat socks for padding.  It's since been moved into a regular bedroom closet on the top shelf and with the closet door closed it can't be heard when it's in it's "rock n' roll mode" (with it opened, it can). The one that is on my desk about 8" from my arm sounds like the box is full of squirrels running around in the attic when it goes into it's "noise mode."


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Guess it would matter what "loud" really is.
Do I hear my drive in my HR20-700? yes.
Has it been this way from day one? yes.
Does it sound a bit different in the past 10 months? yes.
Do I hear any of this with my other DVRs? no.


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## ewto16 (Jul 8, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> Is it "loud" 24/7 or just at random intervals? Listen to the MP3 file attached to the message in this link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2312897&postcount=405
> 
> Is that what you're hearing?


This is pretty much what my HR20 sounds like. The intervals are slightly different, but similar enough. Box is just sitting there doing nothing and the HD just thrashes about.

Makes it difficult to sleep at night sometimes.

How do I post an MP3 on here? I'll record mine tomorrow.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I know of someone that had a noisy drive with a DVR they just got. They opened it up and found a [loose] screw had come out of the drive mounting.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

ewto16 said:


> This is pretty much what my HR20 sounds like. The intervals are slightly different, but similar enough. Box is just sitting there doing nothing and the HD just thrashes about.
> 
> Makes it difficult to sleep at night sometimes.
> 
> How do I post an MP3 on here? I'll record mine tomorrow.


No need to post a recording. Those who have this problem all sound the same. I just wanted to make sure when you said "noisy" you weren't referring to a noisy fan or just the box vibrating all the time. I still don't think everyone understands the type of "noise" we are referring to. The poll question can be misleading in that some people may respond YES for fan noise or constant vibration.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> No need to post a recording. Those who have this problem all sound the same. I just wanted to make sure when you said "noisy" you weren't referring to a noisy fan or just the box vibrating all the time. I still don't think everyone understands the type of "noise" we are referring to. The poll question can be misleading in that some people may respond YES for fan noise or constant vibration.


For some reason, I didn't hear anything from your MP3, but "would guess" you're talking about head chatter, which is what I hear.


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## sonofjay (Aug 30, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> Is it "loud" 24/7 or just at random intervals? Listen to the MP3 file attached to the message in this link: http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=2312897&postcount=405
> 
> Is that what you're hearing?


It has it moments but it is generally loud more than it is not loud. And from experience it has nothing to do with whether the box is recording or not. The loudness is tied to disk activity and "thrashing" but is not based on any event or action I may have done. The sound similar to the audio file you posted.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> For some reason, I didn't hear anything from your MP3, but "would guess" you're talking about head chatter, which is what I hear.


Well yea, that's the sound everyone who has this issue is hearing ..... from 10+ feet away. If you were expecting the sound of screaming drive heads from a defective motor or heads banging against the side of the drive trying to recal then your understanding of the problem has been wrong. It's NOT defective drives.

The problem has always been described as increased and "hyper" hard drive activity on a periodic basis with hours of normal "silence" in between which echos through the caverns of a quiet room like squirrels running around in your attic. 

I moved my B/R box onto a shelf in a clothes closet full of clothes that I would hope would act like a "insulated acoustic chamber" a few days ago and pretty much resolved it but if I listened REALLY CLOSELY I can still hear the bats flying around in my belfry.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I know of someone that had a noisy drive with a DVR they just got. They opened it up and found a [loose] screw had come out of the drive mounting.


...and I know of one other person who replaced the internal drive on their HR20-700 which was *owned* (not a leased unit), only to find that there were *no rubber grommets *holding the hard drive in place, causing the drive vibration to make the corresponding humming noises.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> Well yea, that's the sound everyone who has this issue is hearing ..... from 10+ feet away. If you were expecting the sound of screaming drive heads from a defective motor or heads banging against the side of the drive trying to recal then your understanding of the problem has been wrong. It's NOT defective drives.
> 
> The problem has always been described as increased and "hyper" hard drive activity on a periodic basis with hours of normal "silence" in between which echos through the caverns of a quiet room like squirrels running around in your attic.
> 
> I moved my B/R box onto a shelf in a clothes closet full of clothes that I would hope would act like a "insulated acoustic chamber" a few days ago and pretty much resolved it but if I listened REALLY CLOSELY I can still hear the bats flying around in my belfry.


I think we're on "the same page" here, and the only difference is the amplitude. I hear it but mine isn't loud enough to wake me up, but is loud enough to be heard over my TV. Now, if this noise was say 10 dB louder I'd think it would.
This drive passes every test I can throw at it through any menu, so it seems hard to believe the drive is "defective".
This drive has been doing this for about 10 months, or at least has had my attention that long. Kind of seems to have come with the addition of doubleplay to the code, but I could be wrong. :shrug:
I've got another HR20-700 that doesn't seem to make this noise, and two additional DVRs that also don't. All running the same code, so while it may be the code [change] that is causing it, it seems to be related to the hardware since I have only 1 out of 4 here that I hear this on.
Could the reason for this be that the drives are loose in the mounting?
I know of someone who bought a HR20 and it was noisy, so he opened the case [it was truly owned] and found a screw floating around in the box. It didn't take much to see it belonged on the drive mount and he replaced it, tightened down all the screws and the noise was gone.
I've been around production lines long enough to know not every nut/bolt/screw gets tightened to my standards.
"I just wonder" if someone with a noise drive could/would find it was due to the drive screws being loose and tightening them would resolve the excessive noise. :shrug:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> ...and I know of one other person who replaced the internal drive on their HR20-700 which was *owned* (not a leased unit), only to find that there were *no rubber grommets *holding the hard drive in place, causing the drive vibration to make the corresponding humming noises.


"Yeah" this line of reasoning, seems to make the most sense. It doesn't seem to be related to whether it's a WD or Seagate drive, nor whether it's a HR20/21/22/etc.
Maybe the where & when these boxes were made would have more correlation.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> "Yeah" this line of reasoning, seems to make the most sense. It doesn't seem to be related to whether it's a WD or Seagate drive, nor whether it's a HR20/21/22/etc.
> Maybe the where & when these boxes were made would have more correlation.


That would certainly mitigate alot of the issues to date, and explain some of the common reports.

Considering there are many, many of the HR2x HD DVRs out there...even a hard disk mounting defect rate of 1/10 of 1% would yield enough to explain those folks here having the problems.

The only thing that "breaks" that theory is those few folks who have replaced their hard drives and continue to have issues. In those cases, there may be a combination of "things" going on inside of those units.


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## SPACEMAKER (Dec 11, 2007)

Can someone please explain this obsession with hard drive volume? Is it important? If my hard drive becomes audible is it an issue?


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Assuming the posters are reporting this with the National Release firmware version 0395....added information that would be helpful...
> 
> 1) HD DVR Model Number HR20-700 This was my original unit from October 2006
> 2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)? YES
> 3) For those with *owned* HD DVR units - did you replace the hard drive? NO


But I have a new external drive that is getting hooked up this unit. It is one of the new WD DVR/AV drives that is supposed to be quiet. It will be in an MX-1, so that may help. Just need to watch a few more shows off the old drive and then away we go.


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## Herdfan (Mar 18, 2006)

SPACEMAKER said:


> Can someone please explain this obsession with hard drive volume? Is it important? If my hard drive becomes audible is it an issue?


Try sleeping in a room with a chattering hard drive.:eek2:


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would certainly mitigate alot of the issues to date, and explain some of the common reports.
> 
> Considering there are many, many of the HR2x HD DVRs out there...even a hard disk mounting defect rate of 1/10 of 1% would yield enough to explain those folks here having the problems.
> 
> The only thing that "breaks" that theory is those few folks who have replaced their hard drives and continue to have issues. In those cases, there may be a combination of "things" going on inside of those units.


"What if" they didn't have the grommets to start with and so didn't use any with the replacement? :shrug:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> "What if" they didn't have the grommets to start with and so didn't use any with the replacement? :shrug:


That would certainly explain those cases.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would certainly explain those cases.


"As usual" I'm just pitching this out there and seeing if anything sticks. :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> "As usual" I'm just pitching this out there and seeing if anything sticks. :lol:


Since TBlazer replaced 3 of those drives himself, he may/may not recall if rubber grommets were in place for all the hard drive mounting positions.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Since TBlazer replaced 3 of those drives himself, he may/may not recall if rubber grommets were in place for all the hard drive mounting positions.


Guess in this case, it might be good to try it on "life support" where the drive is simply sitting on a foam pad for a while and see if it stops making noise.


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## kocuba (Dec 29, 2006)

Was just realizing this the other night. Was about to sit down and read a book in the living room and said "man that thing is really humming". So I lifted up a corner and it quieted down. So I went down and cut 4 pieces of felt and placed them under the legs and Viola quiet again. But prior to this last patch I really didn't notice. Then again that was the first time in a while that I wanted it quiet in that room.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That would certainly mitigate alot of the issues to date, and explain some of the common reports.
> 
> Considering there are many, many of the HR2x HD DVRs out there...even a hard disk mounting defect rate of 1/10 of 1% would yield enough to explain those folks here having the problems.
> 
> The only thing that "breaks" that theory is those few folks who have replaced their hard drives and continue to have issues. In those cases, there may be a combination of "things" going on inside of those units.


All mine have been opened and updated and they all were re-mounted as they were when I opened them (really was pretty much a no-brainer). Now whether being mounted as they were from the factory is the "proper way" is another question. I think the factory method way the drives are mounted is causing the case to "resonate" from the increased activity that began with a particular firmware update some months ago.

The update isn't "broken" it's just that the increased activity affects some CASES causing them to amplify the increased activity more then others for a reason yet unknown. I think I'm going to do some "internal examination" to see what effect messing with the mounting screws will have.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

kocuba said:


> Was just realizing this the other night. Was about to sit down and read a book in the living room and said "man that thing is really humming". So I lifted up a corner and it quieted down. So I went down and cut 4 pieces of felt and placed them under the legs and Viola quiet again. But prior to this last patch I really didn't notice. Then again that was the first time in a while that I wanted it quiet in that room.


 That's a totally different issue then we are discussing. I've had that as well but doing as you did resolved that problem. That's a vibration/buzzing caused by the constanly spinning hard drive and fan on a box that may be slighty "out of square" (bent!) or a surface that is not completely flat causing 1 of the "feet" to be slightly raised. The test for that is just to lightly put your hand on the box and press down and it should stop.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

^ didn't your mother tell you if you want anything done right, to do it yourself? :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> All mine have been opened and updated and they all were re-mounted as they were when I opened them (really was pretty much a no-brainer). Now whether being mounted as they were from the factory is the "proper way" is another question. I think the factory method way the drives are mounted is causing the case to "resonate" from the increased activity that began with a particular firmware update some months ago.
> 
> The update isn't "broken" it's just that the increased activity affects some CASES causing them to amplify the increased activity more then others for a reason yet unknown. I think I'm going to do some "internal examination" to see what effect messing with the mounting screws will have.


Without going into too much detail...

The hard drives should be mounted in the HR20 units at 5 different points, all with rubber grommets between the drive and main housing. These are put there to minimize transmitting any hard drive vibration to the HR20 as a whole. If they are in place, things should be fine...if they are missing, damaged, or even some of them missing, the HR20 will likely experience vibration noises.

If you recall (from your experience in the replacement of drives) seeing and re-inserting those grommets, that information would be helpful.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm kind of rehashing what I've posted before, but the grommets have little to do with this issue. My noisy drive had grommets. The noise isn't vibration from a spinning drive. The noise is the head on the platter. It's the normal noise you'd hear on any drive that's doing a lot of seeking. Do a defrag on your computer or copy a lot of files and you'll hear it.

Other's have asked what's the big deal. Although it bothers some, it's a non-issue for me. That's just how hard drives work. When they seek a lot, it makes some noise. The issue for me was the freezing accompanied by the noise. Now that issue is solved, AFAIK. 

Are we trying to identify which drives are the noisiest? Why bother? Those with noisy drives already know who they are. If you replaced a drive and it's still noisy, then you got the wrong drive. Sorry. Try a different one if it bothers you.

The bottom line is some drives are noisier than others although they still function perfectly well. There was a video freeze problem and a lot more drive activity that started on 0368. The freezing was fixed in 0395, but the heavy drive activity still and likely always will remain.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> I'm kind of rehashing what I've posted before, but the grommets have little to do with this issue. My noisy drive had grommets. The noise isn't vibration from a spinning drive. The noise is the head on the platter. It's the normal noise you'd hear on any drive that's doing a lot of seeking. Do a defrag on your computer or copy a lot of files and you'll hear it.


That may be the case in your location, but not others. There have been multiple descriptions and types of noises reported, so the mounting topic may indeed be relevant to some of the cases, if not many. Obvoiusly, it is NOT in your case....so lets not just arbitrarily discount *any* solution, since it may indeed fit in *at least some*, if not many cases.

As for your symptoms...that simply sounds like a platter defect or bad head alignment problem - requiring a new drive altogether....but even that diagnosis is speculation, based on your descriptions.

Going full circle - there is NOT one set of symptoms, and therefore, NOT one set of sources to these "noise" problems.

We need to avoid lumping these all into one "bucket".


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Without going into too much detail...
> 
> The hard drives should be mounted in the HR20 units at 5 different points, all with rubber grommets between the drive and main housing. These are put there to minimize transmitting any hard drive vibration to the HR20 as a whole. If they are in place, things should be fine...if they are missing, damaged, or even some of them missing, the HR20 will likely experience vibration noises.
> 
> If you recall (from your experience in the replacement of drives) seeing and re-inserting those grommets, that information would be helpful.


The HR20-700 mounting is completely different then the HR20-100 mounting. The -100 drive mounts INSIDE a tight fitting plastic removeable tray which is held down directly to the chassis with the same sheet metal screws that hold the case cover. The -700 has the drive physically attached to the case with the rubber grommets. I don't have easy access to my -700 but have my -100 opened and running (don't try this at home folks) right next to me now and with the cover OFF. Here is a picture.

Edit: The cooling fan is part of the hard-drive tray UNDER the drive.

Edit Edit: On the -700 ALL grommets are there because the drive can't be installed without them. The grommets mount into the chassis to hold the drive.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> That may be the case in your location, but not others. There have been multiple descriptions and types of noises reported, so the mounting topic may indeed be relevant to some of the cases, if not many. Obvoiusly, it is NOT in your case....so lets not just arbitrarily discount *any* solution, since it may indeed fit in *at least some*, if not many cases.
> 
> As for your symptoms...that simply sounds like a platter defect or bad head alignment problem - requiring a new drive altogether....but even that diagnosis is speculation, based on your descriptions.
> 
> ...


If my drive is defective, why is it silent 95% of the time? Why does it work perfectly in my computer? Why do all the diagnostics pass? Why has it never failed in my DVR? Why have I never lost a recording or any other data? Speculation is right.

There has been only one report of mounting issues. To say that bad mounting is a widespread problem is ridiculous.

Why can't I dismiss mounting problems in most cases (which all the evidence supports), yet you can dismiss the undeniable fact that this whole mess was brought on by a specific software update?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mdavej said:


> If my drive is defective, why is it silent 95% of the time? Why does it work perfectly in my computer? Why do all the diagnostics pass? Why has it never failed in my DVR? Why have I never lost a recording or any other data? Speculation is right.
> 
> There has been only one report of mounting issues. To say that bad mounting is a widespread problem is ridiculous.
> 
> Why can't I dismiss mounting problems in most cases (which all the evidence supports), yet you can dismiss the undeniable fact that this whole mess was brought on by a specific software update?


Sorry, but the source, cause and remedy may be different things.
As I've trying to point out with my experience, this may be localize to hardware, and the source may be software with the remedy being in the hardware.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> Edit Edit: *On the -700 ALL grommets are there because the drive can't be installed without them*. The grommets mount into the chassis to hold the drive.


Actually....one of my 2 HR20-700's did NOT have all the grommets in place, and they still could be/were mounted with the screws securely. I added the one more grommet myself (that was missing) in place for the "absent" one.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> If my drive is defective, why is it silent 95% of the time?


 Because that is exactly how many drive failures occur...gradually over time where any noise gets progressively noisier and/or worse.


> Why does it work perfectly in my computer? Why do all the diagnostics pass? Why has it never failed in my DVR? Why have I never lost a recording or any other data?


I don't know how you can claim to compare the very same drive with a PC, because to actually test that, it would have to be formatted with something other than the Linux OS used in the DVR. It very easily could be noisy BEFORE failing for quite some time. The noise is often a "warning sign" that things will fail int he future - nothing new in the PC world either.

As for the tests passing....it could pass a test for data integrity, etc....but the physical platters or head may have an issue. Did you run the full test and more than once to compare?

Your symptoms/situations are yours, and shouldn't necessarily be "lumped together" with the causes or sources of others being reported here.


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

I've read the whole previous thread and this new one about this issue.

All the terms can be confusing... thrashing, seeking, etc, and like TBlazer says these terms in the industry can and do carry different meanings.

I have two HR20-700's and were installed years ago by DTV when they first came out. They both have this sporadic noise, and it sounds like it's processing, searching or indexing something - all these sound like good terms. It's not loud per sey, but annoying especially if your right next to the unit, but luckily we're not and 10 ft away. For me it's definitely not the result of a faulty Hard Drive - both my units do it...

They both do it but the Main Important issue I have with it, is ever since the last software updates back in August and/or October is where the extra problems from it started. Namely, and like many other have stated, is that if you are watching something whether Live or Recorded, and at the same time this processing searching or indexing starts up - it is Then it can cause the Audio and/or Picture to momentary pause or stutter. As others have said you can backup and replay it again - and it plays fine, and so we know it is happening in 'real-time' having processing problems.

To me it's obvious that the units processor ability is not able to handle nor have the capability to do this indexing and watch a *HD* recording or Live broadcast at the same time! ...and so it struggles to do them both and can't, and so pauses, stutters, whatever you want to call it, but it is of course not acceptable.

Can we find a way to shut this indexing off, or set it to be a Low priority of a task.

The August/October software updates started introducing this On Demand and Other stuff, downloading intros for it, etc, I'd like to be able to shut that off too.

I've been testing this new 0x395 update and hope it solves the problem - but as of yet I can not say for positive sure yet. Yes it does still do the indexing somewhat, but I've only had 2 hours to watch HD programming since and it hasn't glithced yet ..but that's not enough time to Accurately tell if the audio/video momentary freeze still happens during this indexing - I will come back and post in a few days or a week after I have the time to Accurately determine.. We just want the real-time A/V glitching to Stop, or it's just is not worth it. We saw that broadcast pixelation 'can be' and is still there yes, but that's a different subject.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

endeavor said:


> I've been testing this new 0x395 update and hope it solves the problem - but as of yet I can not say for positive sure yet.


Indexing issues in the previous 0368 version were indeed a contributor to some, but not all, of the negative viewer experiences.

That part of the firmware has been changed in 0395.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Hard drives seeks don't suddenly get noisier without any other symptoms. If the noise was from a faulty hard drive, you'd also see errors appearing in an exponential fashion. The exception is the platter motor spindle, which will be a constant high-pitched squeal.

Put another way, the hard drive mfr. won't honor the warranty for simply a sudden increase in head seek noise without other symptoms. Because there's no failure mechanism for that. It should be reported, but I've never seen a hard drive that is truly failing survive for very long like that. They'll just say that your really stressing the hard drive, and that will make it loud. That's true for cheap hard drives. It's not true for good quality hard drives.

I can't listen to the mp3 file at work - I will try when I get home. Another option is to take the old hard drive, put it in a PC, and run the Drive Fitness Test from Hitachi:

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm#DFT

I use the DOS version, I haven't tried the Windows version yet. They are supposed to be the same.

In the program, select Fitness Test -> Exerciser . Just do 1 loop (each loop takes several hours). When it gets to the random seek test, you should hear the same noise you heard in the HR20.

When it gets to the butterfly test, you should DEFINITELY hear the noise. It will probably sound like a louder version of the same noise, like a jackhammer. This test separates the men from the boys. Which is why Seagate doesn't put it in their disk diagnostic program. But Hitachi does. I have killed over a dozen drives that were marginally working with this test. Many others survived, and had life spans of over 5 years.

I always run a few loops of this test when I get a new hard drive. It does such a great job of putting defective hard drives out of their misery.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

endeavor said:


> I've read the whole previous thread and this new one about this issue.
> 
> All the terms can be confusing... thrashing, seeking, etc, and like TBlazer says these terms in the industry can and do carry different meanings.
> 
> ...


Reading this sounds very much like what I have here.
"Head chatter" seems to be the term, and it comes in batches, then is quite for a long time.
Now running one of the early test versions that I think turned into 0368, I had video pausing during playback AND had the head chattering at the same time.
This caused me to go into the boot menu for testing the disk. I ran all the tests and it passed them all.
While the head chatter hasn't changed that much, I don't now see the video pausing and have head chatter at the same time.
I did see some pausing in a recording a week or so back and did remember while it was recording that I heard the head chatter, were the two at the same time? :shrug:
I went so far as to try to reformat the drive to see if I could do anything to change things.
I found an even longer disk scan route during boot up by trying to reformat [press and hold the record & down arrow during reboot until the record light comes on]. This didn't reformat the drive [all recordings/settings stayed] but took an hour longer than any of the "long test" in the advanced disk utilities [2.5 hours verse 1.5 hours].
Since doing this, my head chatter hasn't really changed, but I also haven't had any pausing of playback either.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> Hard drives seeks don't suddenly get noisier without any other symptoms.


Beg to respectfully disagree...and have seen literally multiple dozens of hard drives which have done just that. Many of those lasted upwards of a year before exhibiting total failure, or else some other "symptoms" in the interim on their way to failure. One symptom size does not fit all.

"Noise" can even vary by manufacture, model, and drive size in some cases, so there is no "standard" or single "noise" rating or level across the board.


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Indexing issues in the previous 0368 version were indeed a contributor to some, but not all, of the negative viewer experiences.
> 
> That part of the firmware has been changed in 0395.


Do you have a link to where they talk about indexing has been changed, I didn't see it mentioned in the Winter 10 First Look.pdf or other posts yet. Is there an offical Release Notes posted anywhere.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Beg to respectfully disagree...and have seen literally multiple dozens of hard drives which have done just that. Many of those lasted upwards of a year before exhibiting total failure, or else some other "symptoms" in the interim on their way to failure. One symptom size does not fit all.
> 
> "Noise" can even vary by manufacture, model, and drive size in some cases, so there is no "standard" or single "noise" rating or level across the board.


Why is it that the person who's never even experienced this issue seems to be the biggest expert on it?

0368 did not introduce a rash of several different kinds of drive hardware failures all at once. It increased drive activity which is more audible on some than others. It's as simple as that. I don't see why some are trying to make this so complicated. If the increased activity makes your DVR so loud it keeps you up at night, get a new drive.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> 0368 did not introduce a rash of several different kinds of drive hardware failures all at once.


No one made that particular statement...you are changing what was said.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Sitting here with my case opened and the DVR running for the last 4-5 hours has led me to believe:

#1) The "thrashing" still occurs and in my opinion is all part of the "new" indexing required for the (IMO useless) pictures and other new data but with the cover off is 50% less annoying.
#2) The METHOD by which the hard drive is mounted (at least in the HR20-100) is also MULTIPLYING the sound.
#3) The cover is also multiplying the sound.

The drives sit in a plastic holder which is screwed with machine screws into the metal chassis in 8 places which "transmits" the vibrations to the case. The drive itself is screwed to the plastic holder without insulation. All this "amplifies" the sound generated from the hard drive.

Now ADD the cover. The cover is the BIG problem. First of all the plastic holder for the drive sits about 1/8" ABOVE the lip where the cover attaches. When the cover is on it actually touches the edge of the hard drive holder which has a rubber "thing" in the corner to insulate the cover from the drive holder. 

All this vibration from the "over active" indexing caused head movement is multiplied and the case actually resonates (repeats) the sound of the drives head movement.

What I am saying is with the cover OFF it is 50% QUIETER even when the indexing frenzy begins. With the drive "free floating" (no mounting screws to the chassis) it is even quieter yet.

Bottom line (IMO) is the case is is causing this sound to multiply. That plus the fact the case is sitting on a resonant surface makes it even worse. 

The "frantic thrashing" is NEW in recent software and the chassis/case/front panel is making it many times worse.

It's not the software, it's not the hard drive ..... it's the cabinet that is making it louder for me.

Edit: Not sure if this will work but I'm going to take the drive out of the HR20-100 and put it in an external eSata case with no internal drive in the HR. If it is quiet from then on then it's obviously the cabinet.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Without going into too much detail...
> 
> The hard drives should be mounted in the HR20 units at 5 different points, all with rubber grommets between the drive and main housing. These are put there to minimize transmitting any hard drive vibration to the HR20 as a whole. If they are in place, things should be fine...if they are missing, damaged, or even some of them missing, the HR20 will likely experience vibration noises.
> 
> If you recall (from your experience in the replacement of drives) seeing and re-inserting those grommets, that information would be helpful.


The 20-700s have two grommets with pin expanders and two grommets on the screws holding the HDD bracket to the front panel. Four grommets. Did I miss one?

Seems to be a very solid mounting system. As to the bracket causing the case to resonate as the HDD works, that doesn't happen on any of my eight 20-700s. With external HDDs or internal HDDs.

Why are we talking about HR20s and not HR2x-xxx? Didn't you ask for more information about the models yesterday?

By the way, I've had eSATAs that banged and clanged and still recorded and played back correctly. I don't mean "thrashing" (whatever that means), I mean banging and clanging so hard you could see them moving. I didn't live with them, I returned them. I did take a couple apart to see if I could figure out what was wrong with them, but the HDDs seemed to be solidly installed.

Rich


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## TimGoodwin (Jun 29, 2004)

I have 3 of them, and they have all been very loud for months!


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

You seemed to have "nailed it", and without a drive internally connected, you'll lose the temp sensor reading.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> The 20-700s have two grommets with pin expanders and two grommets on the screws holding the HDD bracket to the front panel. Four grommets. Did I miss one?


Apparently... OH OH!!!! :lol:

Just kidding...those are the only four.

My elderly memory confused it with another HR2x HD DVR model, which has addition screws where a fan housing is adjacently located.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Apparently... OH OH!!!! :lol:
> 
> Just kidding...those are the only four.
> 
> My elderly memory confused it with another HR2x HD DVR model, which has addition screws where a fan housing is adjacently located.


Thought I was losing my mind completely there. :lol:

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Thought I was losing my mind completely there. :lol:
> 
> Rich


Another short trip? :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Thought I was losing my mind completely there. :lol:
> 
> Rich


Nope...*I* did. 


veryoldschool said:


> Another short trip? :lol:


In my case it is.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> You seemed to have "nailed it", and without a drive internally connected, you'll lose the temp sensor reading.


It's only temporary to see if it's quiet without the internal drive installed.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> It's only temporary to see if it's quiet without the internal drive installed.


So true.


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## islesfan (Oct 18, 2006)

HR21 still quiet, but HR20 still sounds like Woody Woodpecker on meth.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

> 1) HD DVR Model Number


HR20-700



> 2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)?


Yes.

The rest are N/A.

Most of the recording glitches are now gone. However, the drive still thrashes every few hours. Drive diagnostics continue to pass the test.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

islesfan said:


> HR21 still quiet, but HR20 still sounds like Woody Woodpecker on meth.


Very Scary...but yet another HR20 reports in...


MattWarner said:


> HR20-700
> 
> Most of the recording glitches are now gone. However, the drive still thrashes every few hours. Drive diagnostics continue to pass the test.


...and yet another HR20.

Seems we are getting very solid documentation here that the HR20 seems to pretty much be the definitive "victim" to any noise reports.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Very Scary...but yet another HR20 reports in...
> 
> ...and yet another HR20.
> 
> Seems we are getting very solid documentation here that the HR20 seems to pretty much be the definitive "victim" to any noise reports.


You were here when the HR20-100 first came out. Weren't there a lot of noisy drives being posted back then?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> You were here when the HR20-100 first came out. Weren't there a lot of noisy drives being posted back then?


I don't recall *alot*...but yes....some HR20-100's in that group as well.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I don't recall *alot*...but yes....some HR20-100's in that group as well.


"Seems like" that and tuner #2 not working were the biggies.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> "Seems like" that and tuner #2 not working were the biggies.


Actually the Tuner #2 issue was the most common problem report for all HR20's for some time. I didn't follow the -100's much in terms of any drive issues, only the -700's...since I had (and still do have) 2 of those.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Actually the Tuner #2 issue was the most common problem report for all HR20's for some time. I didn't follow the -100's much in terms of any drive issues, only the -700's...since I had (and still do have) 2 of those.


"I watched" the rollout of the -100s and it just seems drive noise & tuner #2 were the most common at the time with them, but :shrug:


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

Good grief, now we are blaming grommets. 

Two of my unit are using external drives (that did not have the problem before), so that blows that theory out of the water. 

And hdtvfan0001, what happened to your '99.9% of people don't have the problem' claim? Why don't you just give it up already and admit you were wrong? :nono2: What's next, going to blame it on sunspots? :lol:


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> Good grief, now we are blaming grommets.
> 
> And hdtvfan0001, *what happened to your '99.9% of people don't have the problem' claim*? Why don't you just give it up already and admit you were wrong? :nono2: What's next, going to blame it on sunspots? :lol:


Apparently *nothing* happened to it, as the numbers now reporting it are a small fraction reporting it the first time.

If you take the numbers YOU referenced in the latest poll now...its likely 99.99999999999999999% are not having the problem. Thanks for your observation on that correction. You continue to propogandize the same item over and over.

*If* you can get about 18,001 people to report the problem (to reduce the 99.9% figure), I'd be glad to state that my observation is incorrect. Until then....maybe *your* sunspot theory is right on. 

Interesting how you seem to be the only one (and all of a sudden) reporting this *still *happening now with your *external *drives.

Please take your continued personal attack dialog on this to a PM, as not to further disrupt this thread.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Interesting how you seem to be the only one (and all of a sudden) reporting this *still *happening now with your *external *drives.


Rich said he had a couple doing this. "His cure" was to return the crappy drives.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Rich said he had a couple doing this. "His cure" was to return the crappy drives.


Yup - but some folks are not gonna want to hear *that* explanation no matter what.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

I still hear the hard drive thrashing in this release.

1) HD DVR Model Number: HR20-700
2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)? Yes, and also with 034c when it began (the DLB NR).
3) For those with owned HD DVR units - did you replace the hard drive? N/A.
4) For those with owned HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "old drive / model number"? N/A.
5) For those with owned HD DVR units that DID replace them - what was the "new replacement drive / model number"? N/A.

Aren't we also interested in results from people who have added an eSATA in an attempt to solve this (rather than losing the integrated OTA feature of the HR20)? I would love to know the chances of eliminating the problem if I keep the same DVR but switch to an external drive (see next paragraph for why).

The bigger disappointment is that the stuttering on playback problem persists. I observed this twice within the first 10 minutes of testing. I re-played the same segments to prove it was a playback issue.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

AntonyB said:


> I still hear the hard drive thrashing in this release.
> 
> 1) HD DVR Model Number: HR20-700
> 2) Was this reported with version 0368 as well (the last National firmware)? Yes, and also with 034c when it began (the DLB NR).
> ...


Absolutely. A few folks who did that reported it did correct their problem.


> The bigger disappointment is that the *stuttering on playback problem persists*. I observed this twice within the first 10 minutes of testing. I re-played the same segments to prove it was a playback issue.


If the content is stored on a hard dirve "with issues"...that could be a related symptom in your playback.

Thanks for your report - very helpful.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

About 6hrs now and complete silence on 2 HR20-100's with the covers removed. I can still "feel" the "thrashing" on the internal drives when it occurs when I put my hand on them but they are virtually silent in the room. Of course I can't leave them this way.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> About 6hrs now and complete silence on 2 HR20-100's with the covers removed. I can still "feel" the "thrashing" on the internal drives when it occurs when I put my hand on them but they are virtually silent in the room. Of course I can't leave them this way.


Thanks for taking the time to do this....hard evidence is the best.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

TBlazer07 said:


> About 6hrs now and complete silence on 2 HR20-100's with the covers removed. I can still "feel" the "thrashing" on the internal drives when it occurs when I put my hand on them but they are virtually silent in the room. Of course I can't leave them this way.





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to do this....hard evidence is the best.


Which probably would explain why an external drive would be quiet. Tomorrow morning I'm going to take one out of the DVR and put it in a MX1 case so i can close the DVR case and see what happens (same "noisy" internal drive now being external). That would completely eliminate the drive as the problem and point to the mounting and chassis.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> Which probably would explain why an external drive would be quiet. Tomorrow morning I'm going to take one out of the DVR and put it in a MX1 case so i can close the DVR case and see what happens (same "noisy" internal drive now being external). That would completely eliminate the drive as the problem and point to the mounting and chassis.


Yes, it would.

Perhaps some folks don't realize that this all takes some time....but for those of us who have done these things (in the past anyway), thanks again for your time....you could be spending it doing something else...like using your HD DVR to watch something.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Yes, it would.
> 
> Perhaps some folks don't realize that this all takes some time....but for those of us who have done these things (in the past anyway), thanks again for your time....you could be spending it doing something else...like using your HD DVR to watch something.


 I WISH I did NOT have all this free time ... believe me. Worst part is I am getting used to it.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

*PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!  I own this receiver so I "took a chance."*

This was an HR20-100. 
NOTE: The HR20-100 will NOT boot with ONLY an external drive connected. It hangs at "Checking Sat Settings 1 of 2." I gave it 15 minutes twice then gave up.

I believe it is hanging on the temperature sensor test because when I went into the "drive diags" screen it hung there as well.

*Was there always a separate INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL hard drive diags screen in the System Diags? Never noticed it before.*

The way I got around it was to boot up with both the internal drive AND external eSata then I disconnected the power from the INTERNAL drive after it booted up and it came up and runs fine (*see picture 1*). So disabling the internal drive to avoid any noise is NOT an option since it won't boot (at least after waiting ~15 minutes).

Anyway, the results with ONLY an external drive and power removed from the internal drive was total and complete silence from the periodic head thrashing. If you listen closely you can hear it but since the drive is out of the case it is completely silent from more than a couple inches away. The fan in my MX1 external eSata case makes more noise then the hard-drive now.

I believe (at least on the HR20-100) the INCREASED noise is due to 2 factors:
#1) The additional head "thrashing" due to the indexing of the new data being periodically downloaded starting with the last couple software updates.
#2) The "non-existant" vibration isolation of the drive from the chassis of the HR20-100. Everything is plastic screwed to metal with no sound/vibration isolating material. (See attached pictures).

Picture 2) The all plastic hard-drive assembly removed from the HR20-100.
Picture 3) Just the plastic fan removed from the plastic assembly so you can see the drive attached to the plastic bracket
Picture 4) The 3 parts that make up the hard-drive assembly. (The fan just snaps in and also is subject to vibration).

There is no doubt in my mind that this recent "extra loudness" is coming from the way the drive is mounted in the HR20-100. The lack of isolation of the drive from the case is increasing the hard-drive head sounds during the time the drive is doing whatever (indexing?) it is doing on a periodic basis. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to resolve it because you can't disable the internal drive.

Not sure how the HR21,22,23&24 drives are mounted but it seems the problem is worse with the HR20's.

Edit: One more thing. With the internal drive installed and the eSata left attached there is still some activity on the INTERNAL drive (aside from the motor). No idea why.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> *PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!  I own this receiver so I "took a chance."*
> 
> This was an HR20-100.
> NOTE: The HR20-100 will NOT boot with ONLY an external drive connected. It hangs at "Checking Sat Settings 1 of 2." I gave it 15 minutes twice then gave up.
> ...


I've run 20-700s without an internal and had no problems. Haven't done it in a long time, but it worked flawlessly. You don't even have to remove the HDD, just pull the SATA power cord to the internal. But that was before the diagnostic functions showed up, don't know what would happen now.

Looking at the pictures of the HDD mounting in the 20-100s, I can see how the HDD could cause the case to resonate. The first time I saw a picture of a 20-100, my immediate comment was "It looks like a TiVo." But even the TiVos had better mounts than the 20-100. And people wonder why I've been so critical of the whole 100 series.

So what are you gonna do now? Every time there is an NR, you're gonna have to take the whole thing apart and reboot it again.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that this recent "extra loudness" is coming from the way the drive is mounted in the HR20-700. The lack of isolation of the drive from the case is increasing the hard-drive head sounds during the time the drive is doing whatever (indexing?) it is doing on a periodic basis. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to resolve it because you can't disable the internal drive.
> 
> Not sure how the HR21,22,23&24 drives are mounted but it seems the problem is worse with the HR20's.


*Kudos and Cheers for your great report TBlazer!*

Some interesting supplemental information for comparison:

My HR20-700 (I actually have two, but one is leased and was never opened) actually *had* small/very thin rubber grommets between the screw head and plastic mounting bracket you showed...nothing substantial, but they were there. That might explain why I could not replicate those symptoms.

Having been on the HR21-200 testing team, and that unit also being owned and upgraded to a larger-capacity drive....I also saw inside that while the mounting structure was different that in the HR20 series, is too had rubber grommets (but different ones, and thicker) between the screw head and mounting bracket locations. Those rubber/plastic grommets clearly are there for the purpose of reducing vibration transfer from the drive to the case.

Since there were multiple locations in the manufacture of the HR20's....some may have had grommets and others not.

Your information and photos are very helpful, and I would totally agree with all of your conclusions - they all makes sense.

In theory, if you obtained and installed your own (not originally there) rubber grommets that would fit...perhaps this would improve things for you going forward as well.

In any case (no pun intended) - this is a significant discovery, and I believe may have uncovered the root cause of many of the reported noise reports. This would also further reduce the firmware as the potential source itself.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I've run 20-700s without an internal and had no problems. Haven't done it in a long time, but it worked flawlessly. You don't even have to remove the HDD, just pull the SATA power cord to the internal. But that was before the diagnostic functions showed up, don't know what would happen now.
> 
> Looking at the pictures of the HDD mounting in the 20-100s, I can see how the HDD could cause the case to resonate. The first time I saw a picture of a 20-100, my immediate comment was "It looks like a TiVo." But even the TiVos had better mounts than the 20-100. And people wonder why I've been so critical of the whole 100 series.
> 
> ...


NONONO ..... I put the original internal drive back in and for now am back to the eSata for the 750gig. 

Definately won't boot without the internal connected. Must be some sort of internal diags being run on bootup looking for the temp sensor. When I take the drive out and run the diag test (with the eSata attached) it locks up at the temp sensor test. Maybe if I waited "forever" it would eventually boot with an error msg of some sort.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

poppo said:


> Good grief, now we are blaming grommets.


If you've got a 20-700, take the grommets out and just use screws. Machine screws with nuts will work on the two grommet points in the interior of the unit and you can just remove the grommets from the front panel and use the supplied screws. See what that sounds like and you'll not be casting aspersions on grommets anymore. Grommets cause a "floating" action between parts in all types of mechanical equipment and work very well to reduce vibration migration and loud sounds.



> Two of my unit are using external drives (that did not have the problem before), so that blows that theory out of the water.


The DLB NR caused me to lose two eSATAs and I replaced them immediately and they've been silent ever since. What are you holding on to noisy eSATAs for?



> And hdtvfan0001, what happened to your '99.9% of people don't have the problem' claim? Why don't you just give it up already and admit you were wrong? :nono2: What's next, going to blame it on sunspots? :lol:


I criticized his take on the noisy HDDs too, at first. But stats don't lie, and what I've gleaned from that poll leads me to believe that many of the drives are shot. I think he's right now.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Another short trip? :lol:


All part of the journey.

Rich


----------



## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In any case (no pun intended) - this is a significant discovery, and I believe may have uncovered the root cause of many of the reported noise reports. This would also further reduce the firmware as the potential source itself.


"Yeah"
Cause - software change
Source - hard drive
resolution/remedy - better isolation of the drive and/or not having the cover in contact with it.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> In any case (no pun intended) - this is a significant discovery, and I believe may have uncovered the root cause of many of the reported noise reports. This would also further reduce the firmware as the potential source itself.


Wellllll, the firmware is still the "cause" because it introduced all the periodic head thrashing (?indexing?) that was never there before which in turn causes all the noise. 

The firmware isn't "defective" but whatever it is now doing (that it never did before) to the hard drive is causing this "noise" and inconvenience to a lot of people due to how the HR20(-100 in this case) was constructed. We can't expect everyone to run out and buy external drives to resolve the cabinet design issue which is rearing it's ugly head as increased noise due to the increased disk activity caused by the firmware!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> If you've got a 20-700, take the grommets out and just use screws.


...or better yet, replace the plastic ones with rubber ones that actually absorb vibration, instead of carry it to the case...


> I criticized his take on the noisy HDDs too, at first. But stats don't lie, and what I've gleaned from that poll leads me to believe that many of the drives are shot. I think he's right now.


The whole right/wrong thing never mattered (to me anyway), but thanks for your comments.

The end goal here is to figure out the problem, and see how it could be addressed.

TBlazer took and aggressive, but calculated move to hone in on the potential culprit there, and came up a winner - I would also agree with you that if this does not resolve someone's noise problem, the drive is likely defective.

Hopefully this hard evidence now at least ends the never ending story of blame toward the firmware. Increase firmware reads/writes within the drive may have "accelerated" or "increased" the drive head activity....but was never the actual cause of the problem.


----------



## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> "Yeah"
> *Cause* - software change
> *Source* - hard drive
> *Resolution/remedy* - better isolation of the drive and/or not having the cover in contact with it.


That's probably the best and most concise explanation....and better than mine.


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> The HR20-700 mounting is completely different then the HR20-100 mounting. The -100 drive mounts INSIDE a tight fitting plastic removeable tray which is held down directly to the chassis with the same sheet metal screws that hold the case cover. The -700 has the drive physically attached to the case with the rubber grommets. I don't have easy access to my -700 but have my -100 opened and running (don't try this at home folks) right next to me now and with the cover OFF. Here is a picture.
> 
> Edit: The cooling fan is part of the hard-drive tray UNDER the drive.
> 
> Edit Edit: On the -700 ALL grommets are there because the drive can't be installed without them. The grommets mount into the chassis to hold the drive.


Just looked at your pictures again. Gotta wonder what the people who designed the 20-100 were thinking. Constant movement always loosens up screws inserted into plastic and I think that's what I'm seeing. How do you tighten up a screw into plastic? Even Loc-Tite wouldn't work.

About the 20-700s. Every one of my owned 20-700s has needed tightening of some screws. Two had very loose screws on the bracket on the side facing the front panel and that was causing vibration. One had a screw that had fallen out and was bouncing around in the internal of the HR. I've made a point of taking each of my owned 20-700s apart and snugging up all the screws I could find and a good number were loose. My three leased 20-700s are quite silent. Oh, the Mexican and Chinese 20-700s had loose screws, so we can't point to a particular 20-700.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Increased firmware reads/writes within the drive may have "accelerated" or "increased" the drive head activity....but was never the actual cause of the problem.


This is what I have been saying all along that the increased activity has been causing some drives to exhibit louder noise being the type of drive or the way they were mounted as all of my later model DVRs have the rubber grommets to dampen vibration and noise.

Glad we are getting somewhere with all of this. Now do you send it back and get a replacement DVR???


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Just looked at your pictures again. Gotta wonder what the people who designed the 20-100 were thinking. Constant movement always loosens up screws inserted into plastic and I think that's what I'm seeing. How do you tighten up a screw into plastic? Even Loc-Tite wouldn't work.
> 
> About the 20-700s. Every one of my owned 20-700s has needed tightening of some screws. Two had very loose screws on the bracket on the side facing the front panel and that was causing vibration. One had a screw that had fallen out and was bouncing around in the internal of the HR. I've made a point of taking each of my owned 20-700s apart and snugging up all the screws I could find and a good number were loose. My three leased 20-700s are quite silent. Oh, the Mexican and Chinese 20-700s had loose screws, so we can't point to a particular 20-700.
> 
> Rich


The HR20 series was obviously the early guinea pig models which DirecTV used to launch their own hardware inventory.

Yeah...build quality, and perhaps even some of the design was not the best. :eek2:

As I participated in later HR21x and other hardware tests, and had several owned units, I could see marked improvement inside in some of those same design elements you cited.

So apparently, they are learning....


----------



## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mdavej said:


> If my drive is defective, why is it silent 95% of the time? Why does it work perfectly in my computer? Why do all the diagnostics pass? Why has it never failed in my DVR? Why have I never lost a recording or any other data? Speculation is right.


Why do you keep it if it makes noise that annoys you? Serious question, not flaming you.



> There has been only one report of mounting issues. To say that bad mounting is a widespread problem is ridiculous.


Take a look at the pictures of the 20-100's mounting scheme and that should answer your question.



> Why can't I dismiss mounting problems in most cases (which all the evidence supports), yet you can dismiss the undeniable fact that this whole mess was brought on by a specific software update?


I agree with you on the NR causing the great outcry about noise and wrecking some HDDs completely. And I still think the DLB NR is to blame. But it happened and we can't do anything but gripe about it. I lost two eSATAs to it and replaced them and moved on.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I agree with you on the NR causing the great outcry about noise and wrecking some HDDs completely. And I still think the DLB NR is to blame. But it happened and we can't do anything but gripe about it. I lost two eSATAs to it and replaced them and moved on.


Early on....several folks said that the firmware itself may not have caused the problem, but rather, "amplified" whatever really was the problem.

DLB certainly (in the 0368 national release) increased read/write activity due to its buffering actions. Other new features, including MRV may also increase hard drive head usage.

The more hard drive activity, the more natural drive vibrations, and in turn, the more "noise" - especially if a drive is not well seated, mounted, or vibration-insulated in its design or installation.

During this same time period, a few of the posters also had noises that were described as something well beyone something from vibration - likely deteriorating drive components themselves (heads, paltters, motor, etc.). As you pointed out previously as well, some of these drives are simply bad, and the updated firmware perhaps contributed to them going bad earlier than otherwise, but they were likely bad anyways. It happens - drives fail.

This is all coming together to make sense on all fronts.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> The HR20 series was obviously the early guinea pig models which DirecTV used to launch their own hardware inventory.
> 
> Yeah...build quality, and perhaps even some of the design was not the best. :eek2:
> 
> ...


I see absolutely nothing wrong with the design of the 20-700s. In fact, I find the method of mounting the HDD most impressive. I've never heard a peep from my three 21-700s or my 21-200. Don't really know what's inside them, but the HDDs must be mounted better than the 20-100s HDDs. Couldn't be much worse.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I see absolutely nothing wrong with the design of the 20-700s. In fact, I find the method of mounting the HDD most impressive. I've never heard a peep from my three 21-700s or my 21-200. Don't really know what's inside them, but the HDDs must be mounted better than the 20-100s HDDs. Couldn't be much worse.
> 
> Rich


I do...too much plastic inside....plain and simple. :eek2:

But yes, I agree it could also have been much worse - I have been very fortunate apparently, as my 2 HR20 units have been working endlessly without incident for 3 1/2 years now....so they can't be the pits either if they lasted trouble free this long.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> DLB certainly (in the 0368 national release) increased read/write activity due to its buffering actions. Other new features, including MRV may also increase hard drive head usage.


I don't think it is/was DLB, but changes in the code in the release that had DLB.
Since DLB is dormant until you activate it, it's never active here and yet the bursts of head chatter are.
This might be just splitting hairs, but "the release that had DLB in it" was what caused this and not DLB.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Early on....several folks said that the firmware itself may not have caused the problem, but rather, "amplified" whatever really was the problem.
> 
> DLB certainly (in the 0368 national release) increased read/write activity due to its buffering actions. Other new features, including MRV may also increase hard drive head usage.
> 
> ...


I don't think DLB itself was the issue. It may very well have been that firmware release when they starting using their new database format which included indexing the pictures and the new search etc. MRV also started on the same CE DLB started on.

The -100 I worked on is NEVER used for DLB and rarely ever used for recording and it is (was) noisy as hell. It connects to a 7" TV in the kitchen by composite and my PC monitor by component. The drive activity in question is a periodic event with hours of silence inbetween. I think the DLB "connection" is just coincidence. There is a lot of new data that needs to be collected now then ultimately indexed.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Early on....several folks said that the firmware itself may not have caused the problem, but rather, "amplified" whatever really was the problem.
> 
> DLB certainly (in the 0368 national release) increased read/write activity due to its buffering actions. Other new features, including MRV may also increase hard drive head usage.
> 
> ...


I've got one leased 20-700 that I had to put in a cabinet because of what sounds like a transformer hum (I might not know that much about the mechanics of computers or the HRs, but transformers I am very familiar with). I doubt if that would cause any problems, but it's annoying enough for me to put it in a place where it doesn't annoy me. Transformers will hum and hum so loudly that it's almost hard to believe that they are still working. And I've never heard of a transformer that started humming and stopped completely.

I've taken a lot of big transformers apart (air cooled, of course) and have never been able to find a reason for the hum, just ended up figuring the coils were at fault and there's not much you can do about that.

My problem with that leased 20-700 has been going on for quite a while and I can't fault an NR for something like that.

Rich


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I've got one leased 20-700 that I had to put in a cabinet because of what sounds like a transformer hum (I might not know that much about the mechanics of computers or the HRs, but transformers I am very familiar with). I doubt if that would cause any problems, but it's annoying enough for me to put it in a place where it doesn't annoy me. Transformers will hum and hum so loudly that it's almost hard to believe that they are still working. And I've never heard of a transformer that started humming and stopped completely.
> 
> I've taken a lot of big transformers apart (air cooled, of course) and have never been able to find a reason for the hum, just ended up figuring the coils were at fault and there's not much you can do about that.
> 
> ...


No transformers in an HR. You're hearing your hard-drive or fan.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> I do...too much plastic inside....plain and simple. :eek2:


I've had a lot of problems with plastic in cars. Rattles drive me up the wall when I'm driving. Sued a car maker over a rattle that couldn't be fixed. And won. All because they used metal screws in plastic instead of using bolts and nuts, which don't care what they are holding together. Put nuts, bolts and grommets in the 20-100s and I'd be willing to bet that the noises would abate to a great extent.



> But yes, I agree it could also have been much worse - I have been very fortunate apparently, as my 2 HR20 units have been working endlessly without incident for 3 1/2 years now....so they can't be the pits either if they lasted trouble free this long.


Gotta learn to live with plastic. We're never gonna stop using it. Saves money and is light in weight. Makes sense to use it, makes no sense in the way they secure it. A strong bolt, a lock nut and a good rubber grommet and you've got a secure device. I think.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> A strong bolt, a lock nut and a good rubber grommet and you've got a secure device. I think.
> 
> Rich


Agree - pretty much sums it all up.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> No transformers in an HR. You're hearing your hard-drive or fan.


Sure look like transformers to me. And I'm not hearing the HDD or fan. What I heard was a 60 cycle hum. Next time I have one open I'll check for transformers again.

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Sure look like transformers to me. And I'm not hearing the HDD or fan. What I heard was a 60 cycle hum. Next time I have one open I'll check for transformers again.
> 
> Rich


Why do I have the strange feeling TBlazer has a TORX in his hand at this very moment...:lol:


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> I don't think DLB itself was the issue. It may very well have been that firmware release when they starting using their new database format which included indexing the pictures and the new search etc. MRV also started on the same CE DLB started on.


My testing confirms this. All along I've been able to force the drive to be silent by essentially disabling indexing, which is to record two HD channels at once while watching a third HD recording, hence no time for indexing and no noise.

While indexing, it has to read the database from one area then jump somewhere else to write the index data, then jump somewhere else to buffer recording data or read playback data. All this jumping to different parts of the drive will naturally result in some noise from the head bouncing around. With lots of video tasks going on, there's no time for guide data/index reads/writes elsewhere on the drive, hence no noise.


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## sfmartin (Aug 22, 2006)

I can simply report that, with 0395, the annoying thrashing sound has stopped in our bedroom unit (hr20-100). It began with 0368. In this case, at least, the only variable was the software/firmware.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> Sure look like transformers to me. And I'm not hearing the HDD or fan. What I heard was a 60 cycle hum. Next time I have one open I'll check for transformers again.
> 
> Rich


Yea, sorry, you're right. There is that little one on the power supply. When I think of "transformers" (especially the ones that used to BUZZ like crazy) I think of the big ones with the iron cores wrapped in like 00 copper wire.  As a ham radio operator for many years I used to have a 2000watt PEP RF amp that had a power supply with like a 30lb transformer in it. If you walked by the power supply with metal in your pocket it would drag you across the room. 

I don't think that tiny little one in the HR could generate enough magnetic field to buzz but ya never can tell. I just put a small metal screwdriver next to it while powered on and it didn't even "stick."


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Yea, sorry, you're right. There is that little one on the power supply. When I think of "transformers" (especially the ones that used to BUZZ like crazy) I think of the big ones with the iron cores wrapped in like 00 copper wire.  As a ham radio operator for many years I used to have a 2000watt PEP RF amp that had a power supply with like a 30lb transformer in it. If you walked by the power supply with metal in your pocket it would drag you across the room.
> 
> I don't think that tiny little one in the HR could generate enough magnetic field to buzz but ya never can tell. I just put a small metal screwdriver next to it while powered on and it didn't even "stick."


I think I saw a couple more, could be wrong. Without drawings, I'm flying kinda blind. Something in that 20-700 is putting out a 60 cycle hum.

Rich


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Beg to respectfully disagree...and have seen literally multiple dozens of hard drives which have done just that. Many of those lasted upwards of a year before exhibiting total failure, or else some other "symptoms" in the interim on their way to failure. One symptom size does not fit all.
> 
> "Noise" can even vary by manufacture, model, and drive size in some cases, so there is no "standard" or single "noise" rating or level across the board.


I disagree -- trust me on this.  The hard drive was failing. It may have been up to a year before a catastrophic failure, but my definition of failure is consistent errors in read/write operations. And S.M.A.R.T doesn't work very well to detect those. Everything (the hard drive and OS) is designed to cover up those errors as much as possible. But they are still happening.

Anyway, some nice data is being collected here. It looks like the problem is being narrowed in on. Relatively noisy hard drive + new software that increases its use + a mount and enclosure which amplify noise. They do sell kits you can put around the hard drive to quiet it down, but I don't know if they'll fit inside the HR20. You could also line the inner case with foam or some other noise absorption material, if you owned the unit.

The other solution is for D* to let the hard drive fragment itself (they can't if it's broken up into partitions). Defragmenting is overrated, and this is one of its side effects.

Otherwise, just call customer service, tell them your DVR is defective, and insist on a replacement DVR that's not an HR20. If you use OTA, D* should give you the AM21 for free.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Is it possible that the internal drive is now being used as a SYSTEM drive and the eSata as a DATA drive with current software?

Why?

#1) eSata won't boot without an internal drive when it used to be able to.
#2) Still getting head chatter on the INTERNAL drive with the eSata connected (may be a reason why Poppo said his external didn't help the noise). So far it's very little but it is obviously going on and isn't the same activity as on the external. It's definately some type of "activity" because it is random.
#3) System diag screen has separate tests for both internal and external drives (never noticed that before but it may have always been there).

Maybe (just speculating) DirecTV is moving to a "combined" internal/external system where the 2 drives are added rather then external replacing the internal and this is the beginning?


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

bobcamp1 said:


> I disagree -- trust me on this.  The hard drive was failing. It may have been up to a year before a catastrophic failure, but my definition of failure is consistent errors in read/write operations. And S.M.A.R.T doesn't work very well to detect those. Everything (the hard drive and OS) is designed to cover up those errors as much as possible. But they are still happening.


We'd all have to trust your knowledge and view on that, as your information is far better than any of us would have.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We'd *all* have to trust your knowledge and view on that, as your information is far better than *any* of us would have.


Speak for yourself.... :lol: :lol:


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

Did some more testing.

With the 750gig drive in a CAVALRY eSata enclosure (all metal, no rubber shock mounts for the hard drive & no cooling fan) it was still noticeably noisy but not LOUD like it was internally. You could still hear the head "thrashing" when it occurred but it was still very acceptable "thuds" compared to the drive internal in the HR20-100.

With the same drive in Antec MX1 eSata enclosure (all plastic with a silicone strip under where the drive mounts AND a cooling fan) it was totally dead silent. The Antec fan was a slightly audible buzz but the drive head thrashing sound was totally gone.

Same drive INTERNALLY in the HR20-100 would wake up the dead it was so loud during extreme activity. Head thrashing was like someone banging on a metal desk with a fist due to the metal cabinet amplifying the vibrations from the drive.

Pure silence is bliss.


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## tivoboy (Aug 16, 2006)

yes, this is me UP at 03:00, why? because the hard drive on the bedroom hr20-700 is THRASHING SO LOUD and hard and fast I cannot sleep. It woke me up and just WAM WAM WAM! Is this a process that takes place?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

tivoboy said:


> yes, this is me UP at 03:00, why? because the hard drive on the bedroom hr20-700 is THRASHING SO LOUD and hard and fast I cannot sleep. It woke me up and just WAM WAM WAM! Is this a process that takes place?


Not a process and it probably will just get worse. If it was mine, I'd have a replacement on the way. Do you own it? Might be able to help you if you do. If I had to take a WAG, I'd guess that the HDD is not properly secured. The only 20-700s I've had a problem with are the ones that I bought and found the HDDs missing screws.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> Did some more testing.
> 
> With the 750gig drive in a CAVALRY eSata enclosure (all metal, no rubber shock mounts for the hard drive & no cooling fan) it was still noticeably noisy but not LOUD like it was internally. You could still hear the head "thrashing" when it occurred but it was still very acceptable "thuds" compared to the drive internal in the HR20-100.
> 
> ...


That's the same sounds I heard from my Cavalry eSATAs that I bought in early '07. Thumping and banging and when you take it apart it looks just fine and secure in the enclosure. Glad the Antec worked. Now do you see what I meant about the 100s? Put a foam pad underneath the Antec and you'll reduce that buzz. While others have said that they are silent, all mine had/have that slight buzz.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> We'd all have to trust your knowledge and view on that, as your information is far better than any of us would have.


That's a strange quote (the one on your post, I mean, not yours). As soon as you hook up any electrical device it starts to fail. As a matter of fact, as soon as we are born, we are on the road to failure. Just a longer journey. 

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

tivoboy said:


> yes, this is me UP at 03:00, why? because the hard drive on the bedroom hr20-700 is THRASHING SO LOUD and hard and fast I cannot sleep. It woke me up and just WAM WAM WAM! Is this a process that takes place?


Pick up the phone and cal 1-800-DIRECTV and ask for a Replacement DVR!!!!


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> Pick up the phone and cal 1-800-DIRECTV and ask for a Replacement DVR!!!!


Logical. These people persist in torturing themselves waiting for a miracle. I would like to look inside his 20-700, tho.

Rich


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

rich584 said:


> Logical. These people persist in torturing themselves waiting for a miracle. I would like to look inside his 20-700, tho.
> 
> Rich


If your car was making alot of noises under the hood wouldn't you take it in for an inspection to see what was going on???

This ain't Rocket Science!!!


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## jdspencer (Nov 8, 2003)

From the quiet side. I just moved my HR20-100 to the bedroom and it is very quiet. My HR23-700 is also quiet. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

richierich said:


> If your car was making alot of noises under the hood wouldn't you take it in for an inspection to see what was going on???
> 
> This ain't Rocket Science!!!


Yup, but folks seem to think that the HDDs are going to heal themselves. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get a replacement. I've got four replacements sitting on a shelf just waiting to go. Now I'll never get another failure. :lol:

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> Yup, but folks seem to think that the HDDs are going to heal themselves. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and get a replacement.


So true.

Once we get past the folks who have been in denial for a long time now - I'm only seeing 3 people reporting that their hard drives are making abnormal sounds that appear to be different than or exceed the vibrration noise symptoms which we now seem to agree are caused by how the HR20-70 hard drives are mounted in some units (yes, the magical grommet mystery).

Based on the described sounds...I'd agree with you that those are likely in the process of or near a death spiral and should get replaced.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So true.
> 
> Once we get past the folks who have been in denial for a long time now - I'm only seeing 3 people reporting that their hard drives are making abnormal sounds that appear to be different than or exceed the vibrration noise symptoms which we now seem to agree are caused by how the HR20-70 hard drives are mounted in some units (yes, the magical grommet mystery).
> 
> Based on the described sounds...I'd agree with you that those are likely in the process of or near a death spiral and should get replaced.


Damn shame we can't just open the boxes up and check for missing screws, grommets, etc. But I suppose that would open the door to all kinds of nightmares with people poking around in them not really knowing what goes where. Hate to see someone lose my favorite HR for some issue that could probably be fixed. But, I don't see how anyone could stand the noises that they report. Denial, yeah.

Rich


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

endeavor said:


> I've read the whole previous thread and this new one about this issue.
> 
> All the terms can be confusing... thrashing, seeking, etc, and like TBlazer says these terms in the industry can and do carry different meanings.
> 
> ...


Well I've only had time to watch about 8 hours of HD programming since the update, and I have to say at this point it seems the unique *real-time* audio/video glitch that was happening in conjunction with and because of the extra HD indexing activity at the same time, appears possibly to be resolved - but more time testing will tell me if it has been actually fixed.

The excessive HD activity which we will term indexing is still there yes - absolutely most certainly is - but out of 8 hours of testing (again yes the noisy indexing activity is still there) I have not seen once where this indexing activity negatively influenced a live or prerecorded HD broadcast and caused it to audio/video glitch *real-time*, where previous the update, you would notice it showing up quite a few times per hour. I won't jump ahead of myself here though since 8 hours testing hasn't been enough time yet to say for sure, but there does seem to be quite an improvement in the glitch.

I use the term *real-time* like that on purpose to differentiate, because remember lets say for example if you are watching a pre-recorded HD program, and you see it happen, but if you can rewind and play it again and if you Still See the anomaly in the recording - then that's not indicating the problem we're specifically talking about. However if you were playing the prerecorded program and the process happened, but when you rewind to see and the glitch does Not show up again in that same spot - then that definitely shows the glitch happened in *real-time* internally within the unit, and is the 100% telltale indication, otherwise at best indications would be less than 50% but mostlikey caused from Network or Atmospheric disruptions (not internally because of indexing).

Anyway, I will post back again in a week or so, and if I don't see it happen again by then, then there is no doubt that forward movement has been made on the problem. Yes it would be nice if we could stop the excessive indexing all together though.

My advice to the DTV programmers is to code set the indexing process priority down even More, so it stands aside even moreso and gives 99% of processing priority to the playback process.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> So true.
> 
> Once we get past the folks who have been in denial for a long time now - I'm only seeing 3 people reporting that their hard drives are making abnormal sounds that appear to be different than or exceed the vibrration noise symptoms which we now seem to agree are caused by how the HR20-70 hard drives are mounted in some units (yes, the magical grommet mystery).
> 
> Based on the described sounds...I'd agree with you that those are likely in the process of or near a death spiral and should get replaced.


My God! Why are you on a personal crusade to convince everyone of your DEAD WRONG theory on this issue? How can you continue to ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You have more posts than anyone in this thread, yet you've never experienced the issue. You've never heard the noise we're talking about. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This never was a hardware issue. And a few posts back, when I called you out, you denied ever saying it was a hardware issue. So make up your mind. All you're doing is spreading misinformation and causing confusion. PLEASE STOP!!!


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

Dave said:


> My God! Why are you on a personal crusade to convince everyone of your DEAD WRONG theory on this issue? How can you continue to ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


You might just notice that many others have repeated and reinforced those very same observations, information, and facts I posted - so I suggest you avoid making this personal - take it some place else.

Many others have been helped through the efforts here, most notably via TBlazer, who spend a great deal of time uncovering valuable information on this mystery.

I learned some time ago that people who don't want help can't be helped. So be it.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

mdavej said:


> My God! Why are you on a personal crusade to convince everyone of your DEAD WRONG theory on this issue? How can you continue to ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You have more posts than anyone in this thread, yet you've never experienced the issue. You've never heard the noise we're talking about. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This never was a hardware issue. And a few posts back, when I called you out, you denied ever saying it was a hardware issue. So make up your mind. All you're doing is spreading misinformation and causing confusion. PLEASE STOP!!!


Frankly, I think some of my ideas, hdtvfan0001's & the work by TBlazer07, have narrowed down the "what, why, & where" this comes from.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Frankly, I think some of my ideas, hdtvfan0001's & the work by TBlazer07, have narrowed down the "what, why, & where" this comes from.


You and TBlazer have relied on experiment, observation, evidence and logic. You both have been very helpful.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

richierich said:


> Pick up the phone and cal 1-800-DIRECTV and ask for a Replacement DVR!!!!


You LOVE those "!!!!"'s dontcha! 

If he replaces it and gets another HR20 it'll probably do the same thing. And if he asks for another model you know very well they will only give him what is closest to the warehouse guy's left arm.

When they send out refurbs they probably open the box and replace the H/D's causing half the problems with vibration.

Best bet is to go to a retail store and get a new HR22 or 23 or get an MX1 and HD. Only then can you be pretty sure it will be quiet.


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## Richierich (Jan 10, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> You LOVE those "!!!!"'s dontcha!
> 
> If he replaces it and gets another HR20 it'll probably do the same thing. And if he asks for another model you know very well they will only give him what is closest to the warehouse guy's left arm.
> 
> ...


You can have it elevated to Case Management if you ***** and Moan enough and they can specifically send a Requested DVR Model.

OOOPS, left out the multiple exclamation points!!! :lol:


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> That's the same sounds I heard from my Cavalry eSATAs that I bought in early '07. Thumping and banging and when you take it apart it looks just fine and secure in the enclosure. Glad the Antec worked. Now do you see what I meant about the 100s? Put a foam pad underneath the Antec and you'll reduce that buzz. While others have said that they are silent, all mine had/have that slight buzz.
> 
> Rich


 Yea, because the Cavalry's are all mounted metal (H/D) to metal case. The "thrashing" is amplified by the case. The Cavalry has been perfectly silent on my PC for years but as soon as I put the DVR drive in it it was quite bangy. I took the DVR drive out put the PC drive back in and it's back to quiet. The Antec's are definately the absolute best for the DVR's. I have 2 of them left from when my drives were external.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

jdspencer said:


> From the quiet side. I just moved my HR20-100 to the bedroom and it is very quiet. My HR23-700 is also quiet. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.


Regarding the HR20-100 ...... give it some time.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

OK, hdtvfan. You win. Please don't report me to the DBSTalk police for my bad attitude. I don't want to go to DBSTalk jail.

Bottom line is I'm just trying to help, like everybody else, and present the facts. But all this thread does is make me upset. So it's not worth it. It's only TV. I solved my problem long ago anyway. I've said all I have to say.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

mdavej said:


> Bottom line is I'm just trying to help, like everybody else, and present the facts. But all this thread does is make me upset. So it's not worth it. It's only TV. I solved my problem long ago anyway. I've said all I have to say.


Appreciate all your information, believe it or not.

The end goal is to get *everyone* enjoying their viewing experience.That includes you and everyone else. If you've felt excluded...we are sorry. That was not intended.

The symptoms you and 3 others here have posted appear to be different than the other "noise" issues raised overall. For that reason, the great information uncovered by TBlazer appears to resolve the source on most of the noise issues, but not all, including yours.

We've said all along that one size (solution) does not necessarily "fit all".

So....looking to your symptoms...and working to have everyone try to help by having this all in one post/location...

Can you provide the following information? - It didn't sound like your problem was already solved based on my re-read of earlier posts.

1) Model number(s) of all the devices which you feel are making all the unusual sounds/noises.

2) Approximate age of each of those units.

3) How long have the symptoms been there (in days, months, or years)?

4) Do these occur when watching TV, recordings, or both?

5) Are these each owned or leased units (more on that later)?

Thanks in advance for your information.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

endeavor said:


> Well I've only had time to watch about 8 hours of HD programming since the update, and I have to say at this point it seems the unique *real-time* audio/video glitch that was happening in conjunction with and because of the extra HD indexing activity at the same time, appears possibly to be resolved - but more time testing will tell me if it has been actually fixed.


I would be very interested if you are able to include MPEG-2 material in your testing. i.e OTA HD channels, or if you don't have OTA, use chnl 76 as a test case (which is also MPEG-2).

As I noted elsewhere, I still observe the same playback stuttering to occur (in conjunction with the hard drive activity), certainly on MPEG-2 programming. So far I have NOT seen it on MPEG-4 material, but I'm only at day 3 since the NR release.

Thanks.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

TBlazer07 said:


> Did some more testing.
> 
> With the 750gig drive in a CAVALRY eSata enclosure (all metal, no rubber shock mounts for the hard drive & no cooling fan) it was still noticeably noisy but not LOUD like it was internally. You could still hear the head "thrashing" when it occurred but it was still very acceptable "thuds" compared to the drive internal in the HR20-100.
> 
> ...


So my current conclusion from this very useful testing and other excellent info provided in this thread so far is as follows:
- the hard drive thrashing is probably happening with EVERYBODY'S HR* DVR. Whether it is audible depends on several factors, such as drive type, drive mounting method, enclosure design, internal versus external drive, etc. (See experiment above.)
- only a subset of users notice the thrashing because either (a) they can hear it and/or (b) it causes stuttering on playback of some material. The stuttering may have been partially resolved in this lastest NR.
- the thrashing occurs as a result of a change in the software that was introduced in a NR last autumn (those of us who hear it can attest that the thrashing began co-incident with an NR, previously the DVR was extremely quiet).
- there is no (current) way to resolve the hard drive thrashing because it is caused by a new software function (indexing or equivalent).
- for those who hear the thrashing and find it annoying, the resolution is to replace the unit, meaning the DVR itself, or the hard drive and its mountings, or to move to an external drive. There is some level of risk that a replacement DVR may be no better than the unit it replaces.

I'm sure there will be those folks with different interpretations than mine....which is half the fun of this forum.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

^ You seem to have a good handle on it, "but" I'm not sure/convinced playback stuttering and the head chatter are directly related.
Yes I have had one occurrence, where playback had issues AND the head chattering were both going on.
I then ran the disk testing in the boot menu, and haven't seen it return [well have seen something like it again, but both were HBO MPEG-2 and 10 months apart].
I can't say A = B, or if it simply was coincidence.
I've recorded MPEG-2 HBO HD and have seen stuttering, but still can't be sure if it wasn't "just HBO", and mostly watch MPEG-4 which doesn't have any pattern.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

AntonyB said:


> So my current conclusion from this very useful testing and other excellent info provided in this thread so far is as follows:
> - the hard drive thrashing is probably happening with EVERYBODY'S HR* DVR. Whether it is audible depends on several factors, such as drive type, drive mounting method, enclosure design, internal versus external drive, etc. (See experiment above.)
> - only a subset of users notice the thrashing because either (a) they can hear it and/or (b) it causes stuttering on playback of some material. The stuttering may have been partially resolved in this lastest NR.
> - the thrashing occurs as a result of a change in the software that was introduced in a NR last autumn (those of us who hear it can attest that the thrashing began co-incident with an NR, previously the DVR was extremely quiet).
> ...


If we are referring to the SAME "NOISE" (random periods of "thrashing" every couple hours lasting 1-5 minutes) then from my meddling around I pretty much agree with you.

There are some who MIGHT be mixing up what we are really talking about. They MIGHT have a bad drive (which would be a different noise) or the "noise" they were referring to may be the fan or just vibration from a case that isn't 100% "square" (it's slightly bent enough to not be able to sit flat on a desk - test is, does it "rock" on the shelf or desk - I have one of those too but they "buzz" not "bump." :lol.

Edit: I've NEVER had a stuttering issue when this has happened, in fact, I've never had any A or V stuttering but I haven't recorded any OTA recenly and don't have any MPEG2 channels left.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> ... I'm not sure/convinced playback stuttering and the head chatter are directly related..


I feel pretty confident that some of the glitching I saw was directly related to the thrashing.. but a glitch here and there wasn't. For example: My PBS HD feed always has glitches in it from time to time even when the drive isn't thrashing... I attribute that to either their broadcast or something in the chain at DirecTV. Other HD locals remain pretty much glitch free.

During the past NR, recording two HD programs while watching a pre-recorded HD program with the drive thrashing would cause: a) pause in playback lasting 2-4 seconds and b) glitches in both HD recordings at that exact time. It was repeatable. In fact, that glitch would occur, usually, twice during the head chatter, approx 1 to 2 minutes apart.

In the latest NR, doing the above doesn't result in glitching, even though from time to time the drive is thrashing.

I think my drive still thrashes the same amount and is as loud as the previous NR. But the impacts from the thrashing have been minimized.. so the only complaint I have now is the loudness of the drive activity.

I did attempt to swap out my HR20-700, but DirecTV sent me a faulty HR20-100 (intermittent loss of signal on Tuner 2). So, I sent their faulty unit back to them and kept my -700.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Here's "my guess":
When doubleplay was added, there was also a change to where the guide data was stored on the drive.
It would seem this could be in the center of the drive and the buffering/recordings are on the outside.
Since the DVR is always buffering, it's writing to the outside and then the guide data updates come and this needs to be written to the inside. This causes the head to "bang back and forth" as it is writing to both the inside & outside of the platter(s). Once the guide update is finished, it quiets back down and goes back to writing on the outer part of the platter(s).


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

AntonyB said:


> I would be very interested if you are able to include MPEG-2 material in your testing. i.e OTA HD channels, or if you don't have OTA, use chnl 76 as a test case (which is also MPEG-2).
> 
> As I noted elsewhere, I still observe the same playback stuttering to occur (in conjunction with the hard drive activity), certainly on MPEG-2 programming. So far I have NOT seen it on MPEG-4 material, but I'm only at day 3 since the NR release.
> 
> Thanks.


Antony,

I only watch HD and that's what my testing is about. We have a 57" LED Samsung and am an Avid HD enthusiast. You can imagine why this glitch bothered us so much. (we don't watch SD very much but I've never seen it do it then no, but we all know the extra processing needed for HD compared to SD is substantial) I never have used OTA recording and it's not hooked up, I only use DTV satellite. The glitch happened on any HD channel they broadcasted, there was never one that I noticed that did it more than the other, they all did it.

I read your other posts in this and the other thread too.

Last night watching 3 more hours of live and prerecorded TV, I'm still happy to say the glitch has not happened even once in a total of now 10 hours watching for it, whereas before this latest software update and since last fall it would glitch a few times per hour - so far this is a Vast improvement ...but I'm still testing keeping an eye out.

About this indexing noise the HD makes when it's doing this searching or cataloguing, I see it as the HD head going into overtime running like heck back and forth all over the HD's platters trying to get the info it needs for its outcome (while at the same time the HD is recording/rendering HD broadcasts) ...it seems so much effort for such a less important indexing function. I may not call or use the word thrashing which gives me the image of a fish being reeled in as it's splashing around, but it is certainly quite noticeable especially since the case of the DVR does seem to enhance it louder I agree. I notice the indexing search noise besides when the HR20-700 is off (but on I know) ...but also when watching TV and it did it's 'real-time' audio/video glitch and during that moment of speaker silence, well it was obvious hearing the indexing was in full swing (try using the Search function pressing keys at the same time the indexing was going on - it really took off even moreso then) In my observations, the 'real-time' glitch happened just as often with live tv or whether recording 1 or 2 simultaneous events - it didn't seem to matter, it just always did it a lot, and the glitch happened specifically while it was doing its indexing/cataloguing.

The indexing noise certainly is still there after the update yes, but the important thing is that is does not 'so far seem' to interfere with HD playback like it fatally did before. Yes there is definitely still the normal pixelation/audio freeze (which is still a p.i.t.a.) which happens now and then and it is reproducible when you rewind and play back that segment it's still there, but we know that's from Network or Satellite broadcasting interference, and not resulting from real-time processes within the unit.

HD's wearing out and going bad can make other mechanical noises yes for sure, but what I've been personally commenting on has nothing to do with that in any way.

I still say going forward, that my advice to the DTV programmers is to code set this indexing/cataloguing process priority down even More, so it stands aside even more and gives 99% of processing priority to the recording/playback process where it's most important.

Edit:
Coming back to this post a week later to say with the 0x395 I've found that the issue is not completely fixed since it's done it to me thrice now within a week of a combined 12 hour period of watching HD programs, but that's much better than it was doing it many times per hour. I'd like to see this problem fixed even better ...wishful thinking I know....


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Here's "my guess":
> When doubleplay was added, there was also a change to where the guide data was stored on the drive.
> It would seem this could be in the center of the drive and the buffering/recordings are on the outside.
> Since the DVR is always buffering, it's writing to the outside and then the guide data updates come and this needs to be written to the inside. This causes the head to "bang back and forth" as it is writing to both the inside & outside of the platter(s). Once the guide update is finished, it quiets back down and goes back to writing on the outer part of the platter(s).


I suspect that's an *educated* guess, and the likely correct explanation.


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> Here's "my guess":
> When doubleplay was added, there was also a change to where the guide data was stored on the drive.
> It would seem this could be in the center of the drive and the buffering/recordings are on the outside.
> Since the DVR is always buffering, it's writing to the outside and then the guide data updates come and this needs to be written to the inside. This causes the head to "bang back and forth" as it is writing to both the inside & outside of the platter(s). Once the guide update is finished, it quiets back down and goes back to writing on the outer part of the platter(s).


Yes that sounds quite plausible for sure.

Back in the last fall update they also added in all these other on-demand stuff, etc, to keep track of at that time too, and now with this extra cast/crew info tab there's even more stuff to keep track of. They need to update the processor in the newer units to keep up with efficiency processing power. Some day 10 years down the road flash drives will be big enough so that there will be no more spinning drives.

edit: veryoldschool, thinking about it more, I would think though they would of had to format the HD to clear that center to place the guide info in the center, and then set it not movable, also format would delete stored videos, and so thinking about it I don't think any of that happened since I don't see DTV giving a command to format peoples HD's - that would create havoc. ..I'm just talkin' outloud, I'm not challenging any knowledge at all, just thinking outloud.


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## HoosierBoy (May 25, 2007)

Last summer, I had to have a tec replace my LNB and he moved me from a 5-LNB to the Slimline 3 LNB> My all of my hard drives were crunching since the update. 

LAst weekend, I had a H-20 go bad and the refurb unit did not work. I got a new H23 and the tech could not get it to activate. He discovered I was set up in the DTV system as having a slimline 5. When we called into the engineering group and changed me to a Slimline 3 in the system, the H23 activated quickly but all of my DVR's stopped the loud crunching sound.

I was quite happy. Anyway, in case any of you can use this.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

HoosierBoy said:


> Last summer, I had to have a tec replace my LNB and he moved me from a 5-LNB to the Slimline 3 LNB> My all of my hard drives were crunching since the update.
> 
> LAst weekend, I had a H-20 go bad and the refurb unit did not work. I got a new H23 and the tech could not get it to activate. He discovered I was set up in the DTV system as having a slimline 5. When we called into the engineering group and changed me to a Slimline 3 in the system, the H23 activated quickly but all of my DVR's stopped the loud crunching sound.
> 
> I was quite happy. Anyway, in case any of you can use this.


HUH? I don't believe the D* system has any record of which specific LNB you have on your roof and if it did it wouldn't affect your hard drive. Setting of which dish/LNB type you have is done on the receiver itself. It may have been set wrong and the tech fixed it on-site.

The D* system MIGHT note if you are a SWIM customer vs. mswitch but that note is only if they need to send out a tech so that he brings the right equipment.

Even with all that the dish type will only affect the programming you receive and even it if is wrong it would cause you not to receive ALL your programming or maybe even none at all. As for directly having an affect on your drive noise, frankly, I think that would be more of a coincidence. I'm no D* engineer but have actually used the D* "customer system" and had never seen anything referring to what dish or lnb you have. It's all receivers, programming and packages. Now it's been a year since I last saw it but I still know folks who do and that information simply isn't there to change.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> The D* system MIGHT note if you are a SWIM customer...


You "might" want to change this to "does note" if you have a SWM. [I know it does]


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## TalladegaTommy (Dec 27, 2008)

they just added fruit salad to a lousy dessert . how about lowering your prices


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TalladegaTommy said:


> they just added fruit salad to a lousy dessert . how about lowering your prices


Using that example...if the food tastes that bad....one might want to change their diet.


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## MattWarner (Feb 11, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Here's "my guess":
> When doubleplay was added, there was also a change to where the guide data was stored on the drive.


That certainly could be what is going on. The assumption I have been operating under these past few months is different..

I believe it has to do with indexing the guide data. I think what we're hearing is the writing of the current channel buffer along with a index job that is running from time to time to index all the guide data (newly received indexed in with the existing). Remember: writing a buffer (or two buffers) involves writing large chunks to the drive. The head doesn't have to move locations as much. If you are writing large chunks AND doing large scale indexing (lots of small read/writes in a different part of the disc), I would assume the heads would be bouncing all over the place.

These 'chatty' drives all started up one NR before the new search became active. My guess is that DirecTV did many of the under the hood changes for guide data (including indexing) one release before they released the new search.

Anyway, my $0.02 worth...


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> You "might" want to change this to "does note" if you have a SWM. [I know it does]


I my case they had no record of it. Probably because I did my own upgrade. I had to email them to change it and they confirmed the change.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

TalladegaTommy said:


> they just added fruit salad to a lousy dessert . how about lowering your prices





hdtvfan0001 said:


> Using that example...if the food tastes that bad....one might want to change their diet.


What does fruit salad and a diet have to do with a noisy hard drive?


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

MattWarner said:


> That certainly could be what is going on. The assumption I have been operating under these past few months is different..
> 
> I believe it has to do with indexing the guide data. I think what we're hearing is the writing of the current channel buffer along with a index job that is running from time to time to index all the guide data (newly received indexed in with the existing). Remember: writing a buffer (or two buffers) involves writing large chunks to the drive. The head doesn't have to move locations as much. If you are writing large chunks AND doing large scale indexing (lots of small read/writes in a different part of the disc), I would assume the heads would be bouncing all over the place.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% on when it started and what caused it. In fact, that has been what I have been "preaching" since this started eons ago. Guide data, pictures etc are all part of it.


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## rudeney (May 28, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> Here's "my guess":
> When doubleplay was added, there was also a change to where the guide data was stored on the drive.
> It would seem this could be in the center of the drive and the buffering/recordings are on the outside.
> Since the DVR is always buffering, it's writing to the outside and then the guide data updates come and this needs to be written to the inside. This causes the head to "bang back and forth" as it is writing to both the inside & outside of the platter(s). Once the guide update is finished, it quiets back down and goes back to writing on the outer part of the platter(s).


That sounds like a reasonable theory except for one thing (and this is a question, not an argument): Would the O/S (which is Linux) have the ability to dictate where on the platters any specific data is stored? I thought that the SATA interface pretty much hid physical disk characteristics from the O/S.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

TBlazer07 said:


> What does fruit salad and a diet have to do with a noisy hard drive?


Both can give you a stomach ache?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

MattWarner said:


> That certainly could be what is going on. The assumption I have been operating under these past few months is different..
> 
> I believe it has to do with indexing the guide data. I think what we're hearing is the writing of the current channel buffer along with a index job that is running from time to time to index all the guide data (newly received indexed in with the existing). Remember: writing a buffer (or two buffers) involves writing large chunks to the drive. The head doesn't have to move locations as much. If you are writing large chunks AND doing large scale indexing (lots of small read/writes in a different part of the disc), I would assume the heads would be bouncing all over the place.
> 
> ...





rudeney said:


> That sounds like a reasonable theory except for one thing (and this is a question, not an argument): Would the O/S (which is Linux) have the ability to dictate where on the platters any specific data is stored? I thought that the SATA interface pretty much hid physical disk characteristics from the O/S.


I used "guess" for a reason.
[another one here] the guide used to be on the outer edge of the platter(s) along with the [single] buffer. Then to add the space for the double buffer, the guide data needed to get move to another part of the platter that wasn't being used for recordings, since this space wasn't free for every drive/user. Imagine "all my recording went.... with this NR" .
So since there is 100 GB of reserved "space" for DirecTV, they overrode some of "their space" with the guide data, and why it now is in the center.
Since I haven't opened up my drive and watched what it is doing, this is all guess work from what "I sense" it is doing.

I had a Seagate RAID with one drive being newer [cheaper] and this one drive was much noisier from the first. During writing to the RAID, it would sound like a machine gun, which is kind of like what my HR20-700 [seagate] does though not anywhere near as loud.

So that's my story and I'm sticking with it, until somebody posts something better. :lol:


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

I think most of these people's hard drives are just fine as far as doing their basic function. I don't think they are dying. They are doing their job louder than normal. They do this by design when they are really stressed. And the HR20 enclosure is making things a lot worse.

However, whether the hard drive is dying or not, that doesn't change the solution. If you have this problem, note that D* has had two software releases since it first occurred. Neither of them fixed the issue. If you think the next release will fix it, then go ahead and wait. I don't think it's going to get better any time soon if ever. If the noise is really annoying, have D* replace your HR20 with another HR model. That's one of the benefits you have with the lease model. Take advantage of it.

Maybe if D* gets enough HR20 returns in, someone over there will notice a pattern and try harder to fix it. 

If you own the unit, get an Antec MX1 eSata enclosure and transfer the hard drive from inside the HR20 to this unit. (Note: you'll also have to put a "dummy" hard drive inside the unit so it will boot properly.) They are the enclosure of choice for S3 Tivos, and we (thanks to TBlazer07) have evidence that they (unsurprisingly) are just as good for HR20s for all the same reasons.


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## Doug Brott (Jul 12, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> I think most of these people's hard drives are just fine as far as doing their basic function. I don't think they are dying. They are doing their job louder than normal. They do this by design when they are really stressed. And the HR20 enclosure is making things a lot worse.
> 
> However, whether the hard drive is dying or not, that doesn't change the solution. If you have this problem, note that D* has had two software releases since it first occurred. Neither of them fixed the issue. If you think the next release will fix it, then go ahead and wait. I don't think it's going to get better any time soon if ever. If the noise is really annoying, have D* replace your HR20 with another HR model. That's one of the benefits you have with the lease model. Take advantage of it.


I think there may be some real merit to this line of thinking ...


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

rudeney said:


> That sounds like a reasonable theory except for one thing (and this is a question, not an argument): Would the O/S (which is Linux) have the ability to dictate where on the platters any specific data is stored? I thought that the SATA interface pretty much hid physical disk characteristics from the O/S.


The answer to that is no, but mainly yes!

No: the hard drive always presents a virtual map of sectors to whatever it's hooked up to. Two "adjacent" sectors may be on opposite ends of the platter, especially if a bad sector has been silently replaced with one of the spare good ones. Also, the OS typically doesn't have access to the "System area/negative/reserved cylinders" used to store the hard drive's firmware. This link is a pretty good summary for more info.: http://www.myharddrivedied.com/presentations_whitepaper.html

Yes: in general, the mapping that the hard drive shows to the O/S does correspond with areas of the hard drive. The O/S (or installer) is responsible for setting up the partitions. The O/S also decides where to place files within that partition and which files go into which partition.

Although defragmented files and multiple partitions allow for slightly quicker loading, they can cause problems with multi-tasking O/Ss. Each task may be trying to access a different file at the same time. If those two files are frequently accessed together, but are spaced far apart on the hard drive, you're going to get the behavior we've been seeing with the HRs. In theory, these files could be interleaved to reduce the problem.

However, most O/Ss do not defragment on the fly. Almost none of them interleave files intentionally. Especially Linux. I don't know what D* did, and even if they did it intentionally or not. So it's tough to figure out if they can fix it.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

bobcamp1 said:


> If you own the unit, get an Antec MX1 eSata enclosure and transfer the hard drive from inside the HR20 to this unit. They are the enclosure of choice for S3 Tivos, and we (thanks to TBlazer07) have evidence that they (unsurprisingly) are just as good for HR20s for all the same reasons.


That won't work. Without an internal drive the HR won't boot. I am told that it used to but both my HR20-100 and HR20-700 won't when I remove power from the internal drive under my current firmware.

Best way is just a new external or take the internal out and make it external and put a "dummy" drive internally. That way you'll still have your programming.


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## morphy (Jun 5, 2007)

On one of my 5 HRs the "chirping" sound of the needle head crashing into the disk platter from time to time as it starts its slow spiraling descent down the drain is loud.

The rest of them are fine though.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> That won't work. Without an internal drive the HR won't boot. I am told that it used to but both my HR20-100 and HR20-700 won't when I remove power from the internal drive under my current firmware.
> 
> Best way is just a new external or take the internal out and make it external and put a "dummy" drive internally. That way you'll still have your programming.


You're right, they used to run without an internal drive. Figures that they would change that.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

morphy said:


> On one of my 5 HRs the "chirping" sound of the needle head crashing into the disk platter from time to time as it starts its slow spiraling descent down the drain is loud.
> 
> The rest of them are fine though.


Sound like a cricket? I had a TiVo that sounded just like a cricket. I searched my room for that little bugger and finally my son said, "It's in the TiVo." I actually took the TiVo apart convinced that a cricket had taken up residence inside the box. Just a loud HDD. :lol:

Rich


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> You're right, they used to run without an internal drive. Figures that they would change that.
> 
> Rich


It may have timed out eventually and booted to the external but after ~15 minutes I stopped waiting. I was able to boot up with both connected then power down the internal and it continued to work fine..

I wonder if they are moving towards making a "combined" (int + ext) because there is still activity on the internal drive if you listen to it even with the external attached.

Maybe the internal now becomes the "system" drive and the external data only?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

TBlazer07 said:


> It may have timed out eventually and booted to the external but after ~15 minutes I stopped waiting. I was able to boot up with both connected then power down the internal and it continued to work fine..
> 
> I wonder if they are moving towards making a "combined" (int + ext) because there is still activity on the internal drive if you listen to it even with the external attached.
> 
> Maybe the internal now becomes the "system" drive and the external data only?


I wouldn't make too much out of this, but "you never know". It has been strongly stated that these will be only "in or out", but then something close was said about DLB too. :shrug:


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> It may have timed out eventually and booted to the external but after ~15 minutes I stopped waiting. I was able to boot up with both connected then power down the internal and it continued to work fine..
> 
> I wonder if they are moving towards making a "combined" (int + ext) because there is still activity on the internal drive if you listen to it even with the external attached.


I've got an empty Antec and another 20-700 that I just bought and I'll try the Antec with an HDD in it and disconnect the cords to the internal and see what happens. Maybe this weekend. Last time I did it, the 20-700 booted right up on the eSATA. Was a while ago tho.



> Maybe the internal now becomes the "system" drive and the external data only?


I hope they don't complicate things like you're suggesting. Be kinda hard to have two HDDs responsible for the HR at one time. I've always liked the way they do it now. Simpler is almost always better. I think.

That would be a big step, I'd imagine and D* seems to be a whole lot better at small steps than big steps. My HRs are just getting back to normal after getting the new NR and I'd like to see them stay that way.

Rich


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> I wouldn't make too much out of this, but "you never know". It has been strongly stated that these will be only "in or out", but then something close was said about DLB too. :shrug:


 LOL, that could be yet another "fee based" service. Like E* does now. I can see the "How much is would you be willing to pay for <xxxxxx>" poll now.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

rich584 said:


> I've got an empty Antec and another 20-700 that I just bought and I'll try the Antec with an HDD in it and disconnect the cords to the internal and see what happens. Maybe this weekend. Last time I did it, the 20-700 booted right up on the eSATA. Was a while ago tho.
> 
> I hope they don't complicate things like you're suggesting. Be kinda hard to have two HDDs responsible for the HR at one time. I've always liked the way they do it now. Simpler is almost always better. I think.
> 
> ...


Well, the first "step" could be just that, using the internal drive as a system drive. 

I bet it was hanging up at the "temp sensor" test because when I ran the BOOTUP SYSTEM DIAGS tests after booting with the internal disconnected and the external running it locked up at the temp sensor test. That's why I think it may have eventually started but given an error message.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

rich584 said:


> I hope they don't complicate things like you're suggesting. Be kinda hard to have two HDDs responsible for the HR at one time. I've always liked the way they do it now. Simpler is almost always better. I think.
> 
> Rich


That's how the Tivos operate today. With no problems. You can marry and divorce the hard drives through on-screen menus.

Besides, it seems silly to not use the big hard drive in the DVR for anything just because another drive is attached.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

endeavor said:


> Antony,
> 
> I only watch HD and that's what my testing is about. We have a 57" LED Samsung and am an Avid HD enthusiast. You can imagine why this glitch bothered us so much. (we don't watch SD very much but I've never seen it do it then no, but we all know the extra processing needed for HD compared to SD is substantial) I never have used OTA recording and it's not hooked up, I only use DTV satellite. The glitch happened on any HD channel they broadcasted, there was never one that I noticed that did it more than the other, they all did it.
> 
> ...


Endeavor: Thank you for your lengthy reply. I agree with all your comments - and yes, "thrashing" is probably not the best word for this, your description is better.

Interesting that you have now seen the playback hiccup a couple of times with 0395. I think I have only seen it once on MPEG4 programs since this NR, but it is still easy to reproduce with MPEG2 , e.g. HD OTA channels like PBS.

I second your suggestion to D* programmers to lower the priority of the indexing process (if that is what it is) to ensure no interruption to any playback functions.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

AntonyB said:


> I second your suggestion to D* programmers to lower the priority of the indexing process (if that is what it is) to ensure no interruption to any playback functions.


Indexing and video playback are mutually exclusive already.

If folks are still having excessive hard drive noise (the word excessive is key), then perhaps the best course of action might be to call DirecTV, report the issue, and provide the opportunity to get a replacement unit. Interupted playback *may* be caused by the same source as the noise.

Beyond that, with this latest firmware, one should not be experiencing the problem, unless something else is not working properly.


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

AntonyB said:


> Endeavor: Thank you for your lengthy reply. I agree with all your comments - and yes, "thrashing" is probably not the best word for this, your description is better.
> 
> Interesting that you have now seen the playback hiccup a couple of times with 0395. I think I have only seen it once on MPEG4 programs since this NR, but it is still easy to reproduce with MPEG2 , e.g. HD OTA channels like PBS.
> 
> I second your suggestion to D* programmers to lower the priority of the indexing process (if that is what it is) to ensure no interruption to any playback functions.


Yes I did see it happen a very few times so far after the 0x395 update, as compared to it constantly happening for 6 months before the update.

The Normal pixelation hiccups are there like normal though ...whatever normal is - it's too much imho.

Now as far as you seeing the specific indexing caused audio/video glitch we were speaking of previously, my question to you is, after it happens can you rewind back a minute and re-play it - can you see the glitch in the same spot? ..if you still can then that is not a certainty of an indexing caused glitch - you only know it's 100% if when you rewind after it happens and it 'does not show' up when you replay over the same spot, which only then indicates it was caused 'on the fly' by that other annoying indexing process.

I know you knew that, but I just wanted to re-state it to make sure

It's interesting you notice it on OTA over the air via local antenna, verses regular satellite viewing.
Whereas technically oppositely expressed, I had read an interesting post elsewhere by greywolf about the aspects of it *here*


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

endeavor said:


> Yes I did see it happen a very few times so far after the 0x395 update, as compared to it constantly happening for 6 months before the update.
> 
> The Normal pixelation hiccups are there like normal though ...whatever normal is - it's too much imho.
> 
> ...


Re: "My question to you is, after it happens can you rewind back a minute and re-play it - can you see the glitch in the same spot?"

No - it plays perfectly on the re-play.

I should add that the above is definitely the case with the OTA HD programs (i.e. MPEG2), which I have confirmed several times (since 0x0395). The only time I THOUGHT I saw the problem on "regular" MPEG4 channels since 0x0395 I was not able to rewind to verify if it was a playback-only glitch. This was because my spouse had already had enough of me acting like a QA test engineer for one night....

Anyway, I think I'm heading towards buying an eSATA drive in the hopes of eliminating the hard drive access noise and also the MPEG2 playback stuttering.....less confident about achieving the latter goal.

Antony.


----------



## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

AntonyB said:


> Re: "My question to you is, after it happens can you rewind back a minute and re-play it - can you see the glitch in the same spot?"
> 
> No - it plays perfectly on the re-play.
> 
> ...


LoL on the wife having enough of it - I know what you mean, I run into that alot - she's getting use to it 

I had an eSATA drive (FAP750) on mine all last year I had it for a year or so, it worked excellent for having plenty of extra room, however when they did the fall software updates is when it started having this glitch really bad, at first I thought it was the drive going bad, not, but just to be sure I disconnected it and went back to the internal HD but the problem was still there. Yes the eSATA external was a little bit quieter but in a living room with the sound on it's no so bad with the internal while it's indexing, you hear it more when it's quite. I have the same setup in my bedroom as well also using the internal now, it's about 15 ft from the bed - I just ignore when it does it's indexing crap. I'm more interested in clean full excellent HD is my focus.

I would think and I noticed using the eSATA the glitch issue shows up more since the internal drive has greater transfer capability that farming the work out to an eSATA


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

Watching my recording of the show House yesterday, there must of been a dozen or more (similar to indexing type glitches) audio/video little problems, but surprised I was when I rewound and played again it was Always there in the recording... so it being Fox Network problems and not the glitch we were specifically talking about.

It goes to show I guess some networks and/or DTV are not error free


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

endeavor said:


> Watching my recording of the show House yesterday, there must of been a dozen or more (similar to indexing type glitches) audio/video little problems, but surprised I was when I rewound and played again it was Always there in the recording... so it being Fox Network problems and not the glitch we were specifically talking about.
> 
> It goes to show I guess some networks and/or DTV are not error free


There is also the question of whether the broadcast was actually perfect and the recording was corrupted because the hard drive was too busy doing its "indexing", and lost data in real time....that is a little hard to determine unless you have lots of time on your hands and don't mind watching the same program twice. (Again, the Spousal Accceptance Factor comes into play here as well.)

In my experience, the stuttering on playback (when the recording is intact) always manifests exactly like someone paused the DVR and then unpaused it - sometimes several times very quickly. In contrast, when the problem is due to bad data on the recording, there are usually visible artifacts present in the picture, although they can be miniscule, and the playback can pause/unpause in a similar fashion.

Besides the one time when I failed to confirm it either way, I don't see the stuttering on MPEG4 channels since 0x0395. I do see it on MPEG2 channels. Definitely a big improvement. Too bad the noisy disk I/O continues unabated.


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## endeavor (Jan 27, 2010)

AntonyB said:


> There is also the question of whether the broadcast was actually perfect and the recording was corrupted because the hard drive was too busy doing its "indexing", and lost data in real time.....


Yes that was known before the update in the equation that there always existed a 50% chance that it was originally caused by the indexing factor while it was being recorded - and so yes you would be able to play it back on a rewind, and so that 50% half made it harder to prove, but for the other 50% of the same equation when it showed up in its secondary real-time instance at the same time you can physically hear the indexing I/O noise - it was this instance then you could play back the recording and you would Not see it there in the recording - and so that's where we could prove it unequivocally... It's hard to type words to thought process points I'm making but I've tried.

...but now after the update that % does not exist anymore ...or at least it's looking like to my calculations it's down to 3% which is well within any tolerance - and so one could almost say the previous indexing caused anomaly, seems to be 97% fixed, or at least not as a reproducible proven like before.



> ...that is a little hard to determine unless you have lots of time on your hands and don't mind watching the same program twice.


Yes but before this last update, within an hour program it happened so many times you would not have to watch it a second time to see it. (Now I can watch a two hour recording and not have it happen even once, reproducible)



> ... (Again, the Spousal Accceptance Factor comes into play here as well.)


  understood



> In my experience, the stuttering on playback (when the recording is intact) always manifests exactly like someone paused the DVR and then unpaused it - sometimes several times very quickly. In contrast, when the problem is due to bad data on the recording, there are usually visible artifacts present in the picture, although they can be miniscule, and the playback can pause/unpause in a similar fashion..


Yes I agree and that was my take on it as well. It was different than the everyday regular broadcast audio/video glitches which usually have a little pixelation type stuff thrown in it too.



> Besides the one time when I failed to confirm it either way, I don't see the stuttering on MPEG4 channels since 0x0395. I do see it on MPEG2 channels. Definitely a big improvement. Too bad the noisy disk I/O continues unabated.


Yes the noisy disk I/O continues unabated irregardless, but at least whatever they did in the update (for the most part) unlinked it from causing the problem we've all termed the audio/video indexing caused glitch.

Changing the subject slightly speaking to my previous PS post about the show House (or rather it's network Fox) was so glitchy - well tonight watching another Fox broadcast of a show called Fringe ..well it was as bad as House with all the network glitches originating from them before coming into my Dish, whereas the indexing glitch happened within the unit itself. My point was/is that Fox has a lot of work to do getting their HD broadcast more in order. The others are not perfect either, for instance ABC HD out of Boston, specifically when you watch Good Morning America, has this unique random underwater garble glitch to the audio that happens a few times per hour; I only notice it on their morning GMA broadcast but no other throughout the day or night. (and no resetting the unit doesn't fix this like it does on the other garbled audio known happenings)

Edit:
Coming back to this post a few weeks later to say with the 0x395 update I've found that the issue is Not completely fixed since it's done it to me about 10 times now within a Total 30 hours of watching HD programs, but that's much better than it was doing it many times per hour before the update. I'd like to see this problem fixed even better ...wishful thinking I know....

I guess even though it's been quite a few years since the industry (and DTV) started broadcasting in HD, its all come a long way - but brocasting HD is still far from being perfect. I think so far they have chosen stuffing the Quanity of channels in, over Quality.

Did you read those other threads with the problems still there:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=167900&page=14

...and then

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=171264&page=4

gesh...


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## poppo (Oct 10, 2006)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> Indexing and video playback are mutually exclusive already.


This makes no sense (as usual). If someone is watching tv 24/7 then they can not be mutually exclusive. Unless you don't know what mutually exclusive means.

"Mutually exclusive: contradictory: unable to be both true at the same time"



hdtvfan0001 said:


> If folks are still having excessive hard drive noise (the word excessive is key), then perhaps the best course of action might be to call DirecTV, report the issue, and provide the opportunity to get a replacement unit.


Or tell them to fix the bug. No need for a replacement when it's obviously not the hardware. Many have proven this time and time again, but some people refuse to accept the facts. :nono2:

Funny how some of these same people can have a problem that most others don't and they will blame the firmware. But if they are not having the problem that some are, then it's defective hardware. 

But maybe everyone should call and demand a replacement. Maybe with a 40% replacement rate, they will actually fix the issue.


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

poppo said:


> This makes no sense (as usual). If someone is watching tv 24/7 then they can not be mutually exclusive. Unless you don't know what mutually exclusive means.
> 
> "Mutually exclusive: contradictory: unable to be both true at the same time"
> 
> ...


:beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:

If you're waiting for a magical firmware fix, you have a long wait ahead.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

poppo said:


> Or tell them to fix the bug. No need for a replacement when it's obviously not the hardware. Many have proven this time and time again, but some people refuse to accept the facts. :nono2:
> 
> Funny how some of these same people can have a problem that most others don't and they will blame the firmware. But if they are not having the problem that some are, then it's defective hardware.


I really doubt there will be a software "fix" for this and what have you not understood about the work *TBlazer07* did to* prove* this noise is related to the mounting of the drive in the box?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

hdtvfan0001 said:


> :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:
> 
> If you're waiting for a magical firmware fix, you have a long wait ahead.


I can't believe how stubborn some people are. To suffer thru their problems day after day waiting for a miracle is ridiculous. If it is a hardware problem, how is software gonna fix it?

Rich


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## hdtvfan0001 (Jul 28, 2004)

rich584 said:


> I can't believe how stubborn some people are. To suffer thru their problems day after day waiting for a miracle is ridiculous. If it is a hardware problem, how is software gonna fix it?
> 
> Rich


Some of us realize that, and some don't.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

Our replacement HR20 from a few weeks ago is starting to make noises. Not as loud as the one it replaced, but I can still here it from where I sleep.

I just replaced the hdd in another one, so we will see how that goes.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

rich584 said:


> I can't believe how stubborn some people are.
> Rich


I think you may be being too kind to call them stubborn.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I think you may be being too kind to call them stubborn.


Don't want to start a war.

Rich


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I have "twin" HR20-700s from the early days. One doesn't make any noise and the other has had slight noise from day one.
The software changes last year have caused this one to "sound off" a bit more. It isn't any louder, but simply seems to be doing it more.
If this one was in my bedroom, it might bug the hell out of me [I'm that kind of person].
It might be "a dumb solution" but I'd simply swap locations with the quiet one.
If the noisy one was so bad that it was a problem in my living room [where it is now], then I'd get it replaced.
I've got two other model DVRs that don't make any noise, so "for me" it's one out of four that has any noise.


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> I really doubt there will be a software "fix" for this and what have you not understood about the work *TBlazer07* did to* prove* this noise is related to the mounting of the drive in the box?


 In a roundabout way, yes, but if the software didn't cause all the extra thrashing (indexing or whatever) this "noise" wouldn't be an issue due to the drive mounting (because it never was a problem before the software change).


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## Huskerville (Oct 2, 2009)

Another HR20-700 problem sufferer here. Thrashing. Stuttering. Glitches during recording and playback. Yes, yes & yes. All since the Double Play update. It worked fine before that. It's to the point I've given up on any updates fixing the problem. It hasn't gotten any better w/ recent releases. I don't care so much about the noise but it affects the recording & viewing to the point it's about unwatchable. 95% of the problems are with OTA broadcasts. Something w/ mpeg2 I assume? I've run all the tests and they all say nothing is wrong w/ the hard drive. So questions...

1. If they send a replacement HR20-700, am I going to have the same problems? Anyone get a replacement 20-700 that works "normally" again? As in...work fine like 6 months ago?

2. Can I request a different model? And then a corresponding AM21? I need OTA capability and I don't want to get caught up in a round and round deal w/ the 20-700.

Thanks. I never have good luck w/ the ol' call to DirecTV it seems.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

Huskerville said:


> Another HR20-700 problem sufferer here. Thrashing. Stuttering. Glitches during recording and playback. Yes, yes & yes. All since the Double Play update. It worked fine before that. It's to the point I've given up on any updates fixing the problem. It hasn't gotten any better w/ recent releases. I don't care so much about the noise but it affects the recording & viewing to the point it's about unwatchable. 95% of the problems are with OTA broadcasts. Something w/ mpeg2 I assume? I've run all the tests and they all say nothing is wrong w/ the hard drive. So questions...
> 
> 1. If they send a replacement HR20-700, am I going to have the same problems? Anyone get a replacement 20-700 that works "normally" again? As in...work fine like 6 months ago?
> 
> ...


Yes I feel your pain. The 0x0395 NR fixed the vast majority of the stuttering for SAT channels for me (only seen one or maybe two instances since), but it continues to be a problem with OTA. I'm pretty sure it's because it's MPEG2. In fact if you try recording chnl 76, which is MPEG2, I bet you'll see the problem worse than on the MPEG4 stations.

I still am thinking of moving to an external drive rather than replace the box. Not got round to it yet. I too would like to hear if anyone with a replacement HR20-700 (or who kept original and added eSATA) has solved any lingering problems with stuttering on OTA playback.

If you ask for a replacement and insist you need OTA, you should  get either another HR20 (w/OTA built-in) or a different box with AM21 - so I have read here.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

I would try a replacement, since my HR20-700 is working fine with all the latest updates. Yes the drive is slightly noisier than before, but I don't have any playback issues.
You might try one last disk scan, which I've run.
If you reboot and hold the record & down arrow buttons until you see the record light come on, it will run a longer disk scan. Mine took 2.5 hours and I didn't lose any setting or recordings either.


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## Sparky Scott (Dec 7, 2008)

Have to unplug it at nite almost.


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## Jammasterd (Jul 6, 2006)

1) HR21-700 received when it first was released, original firmware ox18a

2) current firmware ox395.
internal temp. 117 degrees

3) n/a
4) n/a
5) n/a

I sit 14 feet away from the box and I can hear the HD accessing or chattering.
It has been doing this from the beginning, but now it bothers me.

I will get an MX-1 and a WD WD20EVDS, this will stop access to the internal drive correct?


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Huskerville said:


> Another HR20-700 problem sufferer here. Thrashing. Stuttering. Glitches during recording and playback. Yes, yes & yes. All since the Double Play update. It worked fine before that. It's to the point I've given up on any updates fixing the problem. It hasn't gotten any better w/ recent releases. I don't care so much about the noise but it affects the recording & viewing to the point it's about unwatchable. 95% of the problems are with OTA broadcasts. Something w/ mpeg2 I assume? I've run all the tests and they all say nothing is wrong w/ the hard drive. So questions...
> 
> 1. If they send a replacement HR20-700, am I going to have the same problems? Anyone get a replacement 20-700 that works "normally" again? As in...work fine like 6 months ago?


That's kind of a crapshoot, but you should be alright. My three 21-700s are not chattering at all, but you're not gonna get the OTA access you do with the 20-700s.



> 2. Can I request a different model? And then a corresponding AM21? I need OTA capability and I don't want to get caught up in a round and round deal w/ the 20-700.


If I were you, I'd call Retention and make a good case for dropping D*. They now have the authority to give you the model of your choice if it is available. They offered me any model that was available about a month ago, so I know for sure that they can do this. In any event, if the 20-700 is that noisy, it's not gonna get better and any replacement would probably be better.[/QUOTE]

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Jammasterd said:


> 1) HR21-700 received when it first was released, original firmware ox18a
> 
> 2) current firmware ox395.
> internal temp. 117 degrees
> ...


Might stop the chattering, might not. Rather expensive way to find out.

Rich


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

TBlazer07 said:


> In a roundabout way, yes, but if the software didn't cause all the extra thrashing (indexing or whatever) this "noise" wouldn't be an issue due to the drive mounting (because it never was a problem before the software change).


I put a new HDD in one of my owned 20-700s the other day, but first I put the new HDD in an MX-1 and took the internal out and tried to boot up on the external. Bad experience. Wouldn't do it and kept giving me error messages. Put the new HDD in the box and it booted right up and is playing very well. So we can add the 20-700s to the 20-100s as HRs that won't run without an internal drive.

Rich


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## CliffV (Jan 24, 2006)

My wife officialy complained about the HDD noise last week.


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## Huskerville (Oct 2, 2009)

AntonyB said:


> I still am thinking of moving to an external drive rather than replace the box. Not got round to it yet. I too would like to hear if anyone with a replacement HR20-700 (or who kept original and added eSATA) has solved any lingering problems with stuttering on OTA playback.


Thanks. I forgot to mention I was thinking of this as an option as well. I'd be interested in your findings if you get around to it. Also, if there is anyone else who has tried this w/ their HR20-700s since these problems began surfacing.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

Huskerville said:


> Thanks. I forgot to mention I was thinking of this as an option as well. I'd be interested in your findings if you get around to it. Also, if there is anyone else who has tried this w/ their HR20-700s since these problems began surfacing.


The only way you're gonna find out is to try it. But since you cannot take out the internal, or disconnect the power cord (I tried and failed both ways, they just won't work without the internal being powered up) you might still get noise. Make sure you purchase the external stuff from someplace you can easily return it to if your problem persists. BB comes to mind. Or Amazon.

Rich


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## Dan B (Mar 6, 2007)

Does anyone know if the receiver does some sort of maintenance at night? I ask this because my hard drive thrashes much worse than usual every night starting exactly at 1:00 a.m. Central time.


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## jangell2 (Apr 6, 2004)

AntonyB said:


> I still am thinking of moving to an external drive rather than replace the box. Not got round to it yet. I too would like to hear if anyone with a replacement HR20-700 (or who kept original and added eSATA) has solved any lingering problems with stuttering on OTA playback.


I'd like to point out I've had an esata drive on my HR20 for over a year. Lately it's been making more noise and I was worried it was going to fail, till I found this thread. I'm also having a lot of pixelation and audio dropouts on recordings, I don't think it's happening when watching live.

The past couple of days or more, not sure how long, the drive has been quiet. The pixelation and audio dropouts have been increasing and I'm getting pissed.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

jangell2 said:


> I'd like to point out I've had an esata drive on my HR20 for over a year. Lately it's been making more noise and I was worried it was going to fail, till I found this thread. I'm also having a lot of pixelation and audio dropouts on recordings, I don't think it's happening when watching live.
> 
> The past couple of days or more, not sure how long, the drive has been quiet. The pixelation and audio dropouts have been increasing and I'm getting pissed.


Thanks for the post. Did you happen to get a new firmware update in last couple of days (since the drive has been quiet)? Apparently some people are seeing 0x03A8 arrive...


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> Thanks for the post. Did you happen to get a new firmware update in last couple of days (since the drive has been quiet)? Apparently some people are seeing 0x03A8 arrive...


Does the new version supposed to make the trashing better?

Personally I'm not holding my breath that D* will fix this. It took what, 3 or 4 weeks for our replacement to start thrashing.


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

mx6bfast said:


> Does the new version supposed to make the trashing better?
> 
> Personally I'm not holding my breath that D* will fix this. It took what, 3 or 4 weeks for our replacement to start thrashing.


I have no data either way - was just expressing guarded optimism. There is more speculation (and hopefully soon some hard facts) in the sticky discussion thread for this new NR.

It's interesting that when you replaced your DVR the "thrashing" problem re-occurred after an initial period without it. I hadn't heard anyone report that experience.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> Does the new version supposed to make the trashing better?
> 
> Personally I'm not holding my breath that D* will fix this. It took what, 3 or 4 weeks for our replacement to start thrashing.


It's not in the list of things fixed for 03A8.

With MRV being the new focus for D*, I don't see this problem getting any attention in the next six months. Actually, based on comments from "those who know but cannot say", I think it's never going to get better. If you have a noisy or stuttering DVR, call D* and get a different model. Make sure they don't renew your two-year contract.


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## mdavej (Jan 31, 2007)

... or replace / add a drive (at your own risk of course). I doubled the capacity on my noisy HR20-700 with a $40 500GB internal drive. Noise went away too. I agree with Bob that the noise issue will never be fixed in software.


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

AntonyB said:


> I have no data either way - was just expressing guarded optimism. There is more speculation (and hopefully soon some hard facts) in the sticky discussion thread for this new NR.
> 
> It's interesting that when you replaced your DVR the "thrashing" problem re-occurred after an initial period without it. I hadn't heard anyone report that experience.


Know that my question, with terrible grammar, wasn't directed specifically at you. When I CE'd a version a few months ago the thrashing went away for a couple of weeks but then came back. I haven't been on the boards much recently and didn't know if this was looked into. 


bobcamp1 said:


> It's not in the list of things fixed for 03A8.
> 
> With MRV being the new focus for D*, I don't see this problem getting any attention in the next six months. Actually, based on comments from "those who know but cannot say", I think it's never going to get better. If you have a noisy or stuttering DVR, call D* and get a different model. Make sure they don't renew your two-year contract.


Well, that's kinda the problem. We purchased a movie channel for a month to tivo a bunch of movies and those are no longer on, so getting a new dvr will not help us out in that situation. If we didn't care, I would call and have it replaced and ask for a different model number and AM21. But, we do. 


mdavej said:


> ... or replace / add a drive (at your own risk of course). I doubled the capacity on my noisy HR20-700 with a $40 500GB internal drive. Noise went away too. I agree with Bob that the noise issue will never be fixed in software.


I just recently upgraded one of our owned HR20's to a 1 tb WD drive about 3 weeks ago. I saw an a/v stutter the other night on a recently recorded program. I went back to watch it again and it wasn't there. Uh-oh.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> I just recently upgraded one of our owned HR20's to a 1 tb WD drive about 3 weeks ago. I saw an a/v stutter the other night on a recently recorded program. I went back to watch it again and it wasn't there. Uh-oh.


Did you put the jumper on that slows the transfer rate of the HDD to 1.5Gbs? I tried three WDs set for 3Gbs and had problems with all three and finally got a 2TB WD and put the jumper on to slow the transfer rate to 1.5Gbs and it's working perfectly, so far. Got the advice from *CCarncross*.

Rich


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## mx6bfast (Nov 8, 2006)

rich584 said:


> Did you put the jumper on that slows the transfer rate of the HDD to 1.5Gbs? I tried three WDs set for 3Gbs and had problems with all three and finally got a 2TB WD and put the jumper on to slow the transfer rate to 1.5Gbs and it's working perfectly, so far. Got the advice from *CCarncross*.


I don't know about that. I used the thread with pictures and didn't see that mentioned.


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## Rich (Feb 22, 2007)

mx6bfast said:


> I don't know about that. I used the thread with pictures and didn't see that mentioned.


I couldn't see why the jumper was necessary since I was using Seagates at 3Gbs and then couldn't get the WDs to work with my 20-700s, which are the only HRs that run at 1.5Gbs. There seems to be something about the WDs and the 20-700s that causes freezeups and different kinds of adverse issues if they are in the 3Gbs mode. Don't know why or what, but I took *CCarncross's* advice and even ordered more jumpers on the Net and plan to put all my Seagates that I use internally in the 1.5Gbs mode.

Some of the members just know more than normal folks do about the technology. Find them and take their advice and you'll have an easier time. I'm glad I followed his advice.

Rich


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## dyker (Feb 27, 2008)

Had two hr-21 700s. One was silent, the bedroom one thrashed. Sounded like someone was spinning bbs softly inside, which at night is startling. So I had the bedroom one on a cheap timer like this one. Off at 11PM, on at 6:30 AM.

That solved my problem. But then last month one of my DVRs died (the quiet one). So I went into retentions to get two replacements. They sent me two HR22-100s as replacements. One was brand new. One was a refurb. They are both SIGNIFICANTLY QUIETER running the same software. No need for timer any longer.

So in short, if in the bedroom, invest in the $12 timer (it isn't your DVR anyway, it is leased, so if it dies they'll replace it). Or if you have the patience to deal with customer support/service get a replacement.

Actually This might be the timer I have (grounded). I will have to go check.


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## HJJ (Oct 8, 2006)

I just had a DVR installed in the bedroom and the hard drive noise is annoying. I was unable to get RF functionalit to work on the replacement HR20-100 so they agreed to send me another one. While I would like to have OTA I specifically requested not getting an HR20 in efforts to hopefully get a newer HR22 or 23. I can always get another AM21 tuner if I need OTA on this second box. The other source of the noise is my external hard drive. I believe I can live without the extended disk space for my second unit.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get a newer and quieter model and hopefully not a noisy refurb again. But I was curious if anyone has looked into sound dampeners if they have their DVR in an enclosed cabinet. Mine is in a cabinet which helps some with the sound but unfortunately the back of the shelves or wide open. I am trying to figure out rigging some sort of heavy fabric, sponge or something just to stuff on the back of the shelf that the DVR is sitting on. Does anyone know if some retailer sales some sort of sound dampening material like a packing type material that is heat and fire resistant?


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## TBlazer07 (Feb 5, 2009)

HJJ said:


> I just had a DVR installed in the bedroom and the hard drive noise is annoying. I was unable to get RF functionalit to work on the replacement HR20-100 so they agreed to send me another one. While I would like to have OTA I specifically requested not getting an HR20 in efforts to hopefully get a newer HR22 or 23. I can always get another AM21 tuner if I need OTA on this second box. The other source of the noise is my external hard drive. I believe I can live without the extended disk space for my second unit.
> 
> I am keeping my fingers crossed that I get a newer and quieter model and hopefully not a noisy refurb again. But I was curious if anyone has looked into sound dampeners if they have their DVR in an enclosed cabinet. Mine is in a cabinet which helps some with the sound but unfortunately the back of the shelves or wide open. I am trying to figure out rigging some sort of heavy fabric, sponge or something just to stuff on the back of the shelf that the DVR is sitting on. Does anyone know if some retailer sales some sort of sound dampening material like a packing type material that is heat and fire resistant?


I have mine in an armoire in the BR and the H/D echoes like crazy on the wood shelf. I sat the HR20-700 on 2 pair of cotton socks, made a big difference. 

As for the external drive, it depends on what brand/case it is in for the amound of noise that gets through. I had a CAVALRY which was noisy as hell and put the drive in an Antec MX1 and it MUCH quieter (virtually silent) due to the way it is mounted in the Antec.


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## tkrandall (Oct 3, 2003)

I have HR20-700 refurb unit acquired when upgraded to HD in summer 2007. Was recently on the January release (I forget number). Currently on CE release from 3/5 

This has been a stable unit but it has for a long time had the HDD thrashing/crunching sound that comes and goes as you watch TV. Almost sounds like a computer when it is doing disk scan or disk maintenance or defrag. I can't tell you if it has always done this but it has for at least a year if not longer. This unit is otherwsie quiet, but the data crunching sound can be a little annoying......


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## AntonyB (May 2, 2008)

With 0x03A8, it seems that the "thrashing" problem is less severe. I still hear it, but it's less persistent, less frequent, and the bursts of activity are shorter. It is also a tad quieter during the periods of access.

More important to me is whether the related playback-only stuttering problems are gone, and on that I am not fully decided yet. I am cautiously optimistic after a few days of observing playback of different material that there is a further improvement over 0x0395. I need to watch more MPEG2 (i.e. OTA HD) programs to be sure, but so far I have not seen the same stuttering that I saw quite easily before with OTA. The SAT MPEG4 programs seem fine in this regard, but they were mostly fine since 0x0395 for me. 

Co-incidentally or otherwise I have seen almost none of the (recorded) problems of picture break up (pixelation) that had been common on some of the HD channels recently.


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## Volunteer (Oct 14, 2006)

I have 3 HR20's that all have been thrashing like mad for quite some time including one with an esata drive. The one in the bedroom is so loud that I regularly plug the plug at night. I agree with Antony that 3A8 did something to make the thrashing less severe, but it did not eliminate it, the bursts are less ofter and less loud, but still present.


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