# SD has top and bottom bars that requires use of zoom



## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

I noticed today that both hd /lcd tvs have top and bottom bars on all channels, including premium channels. One tv has zoom that takes care of the bars, but reduces pq. The other tv does not have zoom so I have top and bottom bars with no solution. SD receiver and tvs are set on 16:9.I am wondering if receiver is at fault or has something changed with DTV. The guide fills the screen without zoom on both sets.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

*Edit: Add: Please list the receiver model numbers that you are using.*

For the HD receivers, check this,
Menu, Settings, Display, Video, Screen Format: Set to Pillar Box, also set Native to ON
next
TV Ratio, make sure there is a check mark in 16:9.

For the receiver feeding the SD TV it should be set to Standard 4:3 in TV Ratio

After you have set that you can mess with the Format button on the remote. It will cycle thru all available Formats out of the receiver.
Try that and see what happens.

Make sure that your Picture is not set to Stretch mode in the TV.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

jimmie57 said:


> For the HD receivers, check this,
> Menu, Settings, Display, Video, Screen Format: Set to Pillar Box, also set Native to ON
> next
> TV Ratio, make sure there is a check mark in 16:9.
> ...


Its a bit confusing;

As it sounds like the TS has SD receivers with the receivers' and TV sets on 16:9 display mode. If so, this should result in a 4:3 to 16:9 stretched picture (or "stretch-o-vision") on a HD LCD TV which will have matte bars on the top and bottom if the native image is in 4:3 letter-box or stretch-o-vision full screen if the native is 4:3 full.

Setting 16:9 or 4:3 mode on an SD receiver should have no effect on the picture since its actually for handling anamorphic video which is now obsolete and thus a holdover feature capability from a past era.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

MY receiver is a D12 700. The horizontal bars appeared recently and as I said, only my sharp will fill the screen with zoom. Just checked ratio on receiver and toggled back and forth from 16:9 to 4:3. I had already tried that about 6 times and there was no change. Now everything is back to normal on both tv's. The only thing I can figure is something was going on with receiver or directv. Thanks for the information. Yes, I always had to use smart stretch on the sharp, but that was still much better than zoom which was grainy. I believe that PQ returned to normal also and not because of not using zoom. Weird, glitch or gremlin?Thanks again.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

I just looked back at Sharp screen and problem has returned minutes after my last post. Horizontal bars and slightly diminished PQ. Crap!


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Devorandy said:


> I just looked back at Sharp screen and problem has returned minutes after my last post. Horizontal bars and slightly diminished PQ. Crap!


OK;

Now most of my SD channels are hidden since I'm an HD sub. with "Hide SD Duplicates" option selected. But while I can unmask the SD dups. for testing, for now I'm watching "Sergeant Rutledge" on the Encore Western theme channel on ch. 568 which is an SD channel in 4:3 full on my Genie which should fill your screen in stretch-o-vision.

Do you have the Encore theme channels? How does Encore Western look on your D12?


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

HoTat 2. I don't have encore. The horizontal bars re-appeared on all channels as magically as they disappeared without changes to tv or DTV receiver. The PQ also diminished as the bars re-appeared. The Sharp TV stretch and smart stretch doesn't eliminate bars as it did before. The Vizio will not fill screen because it doesn't have zoom so bars are there no matter the setting.This happened in a moment after posting everything was back to normal.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

You said "My Receiver". Do you just have one receiver feeding multiple TVs ?
If so, how are they connected to the receiver ?

I have and my neighbor has a Vizio and they both have zoom on them. Are you sure you don't have that on yours ?
Use the TV remote, hit Menu, then choose Wide, then you choose stretch, etc.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

Commercial display full screen as well as REELZ and Bravo.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

Both TV's connected to same receiver. One connected by s-video and the other by RCA or composite. I have had this setup for years and this just happened today. Like I said, it just did an independent flip flop. Vizio has no zoom that I can find , it cycles through 4:3, 16:9 and panoramic ( which I assume is their stretch.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

OK I have SD channels unmasked;

Lets try TVLand on 304 right now which is airing the Golden Girls and its in 4:3 full. What do you have there?


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

full screen on TV land as well as REEZ, Bravo and perhaps a few others


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Alright I don't think anything is wrong;

Maybe things have sort crept up on you with either the networks or DIRECTV broadcasting many more SD channels in letterbox particularly on the premiums.

But for one more check, what premium channels do you have so I can check them on this end?


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

I have HBO. I have to point out that it changed back to full screen on both tv's, using stretch, for about 5 minutes. When they went back to full screen, both tv's also reverted back to original PQ. I'm thinking this switch back and forth can only mean some problem and most likely with receiver as both tv's experienced same problem simultaneously.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

I was watching HBO when the flip to normal occurred, it went to full screen, no hoz. bars and PQ was back to normal. Again, this flip lasted about 5 minutes, then back to poor PQ and hoz bars.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Devorandy said:


> I was watching HBO when the flip to normal occurred, it went to full screen, no hoz. bars and PQ was back to normal. Again, this flip lasted about 5 minutes, then back to poor PQ and hoz bars.


OK, this appears to be just the way the HBO SD feeds are now broadcast. The HD feeds are down-converted with the active format as 16:9 in a 4:3 letter-box for the main movie material in which case the black matte bars would be normal.

However when the commercials and promos are shown the active format may switch the image to 4:3 full and center-cut accounting for the occasional "flip" to full screen you see.

Now I don't know if either DIRECTV is receiving the separate SD feeds from HBO and others this way or if they're creating them locally by converting the HD feeds this way in accordance with an "active format description" (AFD) code sent by the networks and then broadcasting them on their SD network.

Anyway, as I said there are other premium channels in 4:3 full.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

Thanks for your responses. It may well be my description of the problem, but you are not grasping that this flip occurred as I was watching HBO, but was not confined to HBO. You also do not seem to be comprehending that with the flip from full screen to hoz. bars was a significant downgrade of picture quality. I noticed the bars this afternoon and my first thought was to hit the wide aspect button. This had no affect and after trying every combination of aspect ratio setting on both tvs and the receiver with no affect there was a 5 minute return to normal then back to hoz bars and poor PQ except for REELZ, Bravo, TV land, but the PQ still sucked on those channels. If it's not the receiver are you suggesting that Directv signal being transmitted is changing in this fashion. Remember , we are not talking about just HBO or any single channel. You seem very knowledgeable about DTV, but seem to be missing the simplicity of what is happening. I hope I don't sound haughty because that is not my intention. I really appreciate your time and thoughts.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Am I missing something, Why not upgrade to HD?


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Could your TV monitor be hosed? I'd place a wee bet on that.


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## harsh (Jun 15, 2003)

If the 4:3 full-screen content looks good, that's the best you can hope for as it has the greatest number of pixels. Anything else is going to be a zoom in of a relatively low active pixel count SD rendition. The effective matrix of a letterbox channel is somewhere along the 25-35% of the resolution of your TV and that's simply not going to look particularly fabulous as you're seeing at least a 3:1 upscale.

If you're wondering why some (or all) are confused, in your OP you state that zooming in makes the picture worse (expected) and then in post #17 you say that zooming out (going "to hoz. bars" in your parlance) makes the picture worse (not expected).


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

When your picture is looking good and when it is looking bad, try pressing the Info button on the remote to see what kind of signal it is receiving from the DTV receiver.
One time it might show 480i and another time 480p.
Grabbing at straws here.

Have you tried resetting the receiver ? 
Menu, Settings, Reset, Restart Receiver

This fixes a lot of annoying things that are not explainable some times.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

harsh said:


> If the 4:3 full-screen content looks good, that's the best you can hope for as it has the greatest number of pixels. Anything else is going to be a zoom in of a relatively low active pixel count SD rendition. The effective matrix of a letterbox channel is somewhere along the 25-35% of the resolution of your TV and that's simply not going to look particularly fabulous as you're seeing at least a 3:1 upscale.
> 
> *If you're wondering why some (or all) are confused, in your OP you state that zooming in makes the picture worse (expected) and then in post #17 you say that zooming out (going "to hoz. bars" in your parlance) makes the picture worse (not expected).*


This is what I'm not really finding;

The TS' complaint of a substantial drop in DIRECTV's SD channel PQ when it goes from 4:3 full to a 4:3 letter-box image. Granted subjectivism notwithstanding, all of DIRECTV SD quality is mediocre at best to me, with only a 480 x 480 or less resolution for a 4:3 full image, so zooming in on an SD letterbox version with its even lesser vertical resolution will naturally make it look even worse.

But all this aside I'm not seeing a major falloff in PQ between 4:3 full and letter-box versions the TS is reporting.


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## Devorandy (Dec 31, 2006)

Peds 48: have not upgraded to HD because on a 24 and 32 " Lcd tvs the PQ difference is not a "wow". I have a couple of HD channels on air channels and have switched back and forth to evaluate. The other reason is DTV tech was called for another reason and said that a new dish would be required for HD and said it would have to be located centered on front lawn (very noticeable).

harsh: I did say that using zoom to fill screen degrades PQ even more, but PQ is also degraded when the horizontal bars are present. When horizontal bars are present "stretch" and "smart stretch" are not functioning and the only way to fill screen is zoom (double whamy on PQ). The main point is that prior to yesterday both lcd tvs had full screen display using 16:9 with stretch and very good SD picture. The bars appeared and PQ simultaneously degraded. While posting here yesterday, I looked over and everything was back to normal, full screen and good SD picture. Five minutes later both TV's were back to horizontal bars, degraded picture and loss of stretch function. I don't think I can explain this any clearer. Since this happened on both tvs that were connected to the same receiver I assumed it was the receiver or DTV had modified SD signal and that was what I was trying to determine. When both sets returned to "normal" functioning and picture for 5 minutes I am going to assume its the receiver or else someone at DTV is toying with a switch.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

Devorandy said:


> ... harsh: I did say that using zoom to fill screen degrades PQ even more, but PQ is also degraded when the horizontal bars are present. When horizontal bars are present "stretch" and "smart stretch" are not functioning and the only way to fill screen is zoom (double whamy on PQ). The main point is that prior to yesterday both lcd tvs had full screen display using 16:9 with stretch and very good SD picture. The bars appeared and PQ simultaneously degraded. While posting here yesterday, I looked over and everything was back to normal, full screen and good SD picture. Five minutes later both TV's were back to horizontal bars, degraded picture and loss of stretch function. I don't think I can explain this any clearer. Since this happened on both tvs that were connected to the same receiver I assumed it was the receiver or DTV had modified SD signal and that was what I was trying to determine. When both sets returned to "normal" functioning and picture for 5 minutes I am going to assume its the receiver or else someone at DTV is toying with a switch.


Now I'm totally puzzled by this;

The sudden appearance of the horizontal matte bars when the program is not in letter-box and subsequent fall in PQ is one thing.

But to disable the TV's stretch screen modes in the process?  

If a full reset on the box doesn't help then its time for a service call and a receiver swap.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

Tune to Game Show Network (GSN) channel 233. This channel is NOT in HD (and 99% of their shows were never filmed in HD). It is ONLY available on the 101 satellite in SD.

If you have black bars on the screen of your SD TV there is something wrong with YOUR setup. I watch this channel all the time (Yay "Password" with Bert Convy!!) on my SD tube-type TV being fed by an R15 (SD) DVR and there are NO BARS and the picture fills the entire screen.

If you have black bars on this channel, I suggest you go to the MENU and choose SETUP and RESET EVERYTHING. Before you do this, make sure you know what kind of satellite dish you have because you will need to do the "satellite setup" after doing this.

If after doing this you still are having problems, there is something going on with your TV set and it's not DirecTV's problem.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

ThomasM said:


> Tune to Game Show Network (GSN) channel 233. This channel is NOT in HD *(and 99% of their shows were never filmed in HD)*. It is ONLY available on the 101 satellite in SD. ...


Ironic you would post this right at the beginning of two shows on GSN that were originally recorded in HD. !rolling 

Two 2012 shows of Family Feud with host Steve Harvey ....

Anyway, it's showing as 4:3 full center-cut and thus in pillar box on my HDTV connected a Genie.


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## ThomasM (Jul 20, 2007)

HoTat2 said:


> Ironic you would post this right at the beginning of two shows on GSN that were originally recorded in HD. !rolling
> 
> Two 2012 shows of Family Feud with host Steve Harvey ....
> 
> Anyway, it's showing as 4:3 full center-cut and thus in pillar box on my HDTV connected a Genie.


The thread starter has an SD box and an SD TV set-not a Genie and an HDTV. And yes, there are a few (VERY few) programs on GSN that are recent and were filmed in HD but they are so few the channel itself is transmitted in SD.


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## HoTat2 (Nov 16, 2005)

ThomasM said:


> The thread starter has an SD box and an SD TV set-not a Genie and an HDTV. And yes, there are a few (VERY few) programs on GSN that are recent and were filmed in HD but they are so few the channel itself is transmitted in SD.


The remark about the irony of two upcomming programs on GSN originally recorded in HD at the time of your post was just meant in fun ThomasM; :engel08: 

But anyway, your statement about the TS' setup is not totally correct. The TS actually has two HDTV's, a Sharp and a Vizio, connected to a D12 receiver via its S and composite video outputs.

And I know he doesn't have a Genie, but was still working with him to see if the issue he was seeing with the black bars with degraded PQ is on DIRECTV's end or his. Since if were on DIRECTV's side I should see it as well, Genie or not.

Addendum:

You stated above;



> ... And yes, there are a few (VERY few) programs on GSN that are recent and were filmed in HD but they are so few the channel itself is transmitted in SD.


Were you referring to only DIRECTV's transmission of GSN in SD?

Because I noticed another poster in the HD anticipation thread write that GSN actually does have an HD feed which is carried by some cable companies.

http://www.dbstalk.com/topic/205985-directv-hd-channel-anticipation-official-q3-13-thread/?p=3155974


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