# Ask Dbstalk: Has The 921 Become Low Priority?



## Eagles (Dec 31, 2003)

Mark, 
While your review of the 942 was great and seemed to indicate that Dish may have gotten their act together on this one, it honestly makes me wonder if the 921 will truly be left to wither on the vine. From what I'm reading on DBSTALK it seems Dish, unlike with the 921 rollout will be offering some good deals on this unit when it comes out. It appears that for the time being, they are putting all their eggs in the 942 basket. After hearing all the rave reviews on the 942, it just makes me wonder about Dish's future commitment level to the 921. As someone who is not currently in a financial position to purchase a 942 unless they come up with some kind of deal where they basically give it away, I'm stuck with the 921. Any thoughts or maybe indications from Dish people concerning this? Thanks.


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## juan ellitinez (Jan 31, 2003)

Welllllllll it has been discontinued


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## Mike123abc (Jul 19, 2002)

Both the 921 and 942 have a limited life time. With the promised need for MPEG-4 coming down the road. I do not really expect to see new features to come out with the 921 (with the possible exception of Dish Home since they can in theory make money by selling some of the services). I suspect that slowly but surely they will continue to fix bugs. The unit will of course become completely reliable and nearly bug free once Dish switches to MPEG-4 and it needs to be replaced.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

The 921 is still being actively worked on, Eagles. There's a lot of different program teams at Dish...


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## SimpleSimon (Jan 15, 2004)

"Actively worked on" and "low priority" are not mutually exclusive.

All things considered, the non-OTA 921 bugs have been low-priority for months - fortunately, considering the 1-step-forward, 3-steps-backward record they've got.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

The way I see it is that we really got the shaft this time. Actively worked on and low priority are not mutually exclusive, as SimpleSimon pointed out. 

What gets me is that these *#$%&**&%$#@! expect us to upgrade to the new model!

If you want name based recording, you're gonna have to upgrade. If you want a machine that works, according to Mark's 942 review, the way " the DVR-921 should have", you will have to upgrade!

Yet, look at what that upgrade gets you.....

$5/mo DVR fee
$6/mo OTA EPG fee
$5/mo I don't have an obsolete land line, and dish is to lame to use the internet fee.

Who would buy this box knowing it is obsolete in the fall. That means it is best to lease this thing. ($250 upgrade fee?)

$5/mo lease fee?

$21/mo for the privlege? Give me a break!

I don't like what dish has done to the 921 customers. I would excuse them if they tried to correct matters, do something to make up for the past mistakes. It doesn't appear they will do that. Even if they just tried to make the 921, " the DVR-921 should have" instead of witholding features to try to make us buy their new box, I would be okay with that.

Bottom line is I feel cheated, in more than just one way. Unless Dish makes an about face with what I am terming greedy tactics and show some integrity, I hope they loose customers to their competition and wither into insignificance.


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

jsanders said:


> The way I see it is that we really got the shaft this time.


I agree. I spent $1000 on a 921 expecting it to have a usable lifetime of 4 or 5 years. Now it looks like it will have a lifetime of 2 years and very little programming available during those 2 years. 5 years works out to $17/month, 2 years is $42/month. Even if E* gives me some trade in value for 921, I am still going to be losing a lot more money that I expected.

Charlie kept saying that E* was the HD leader and would stay that way. The 921 was the flagship of E* receivers. :nono2: Now he says the 921 is going to be limited to the HD channels that are there now and to get the new channels, we need to replace it with some box that handles MPEG4. What box?  Anybody hear of any box under design that handles MPEG4? The 921 was in developement for how long? About 3 years? We heard rumors about 921 for years, so I find it hard to believe that a new MPEG box is under design and going to be ready by fall.

In the March Charlie Chat, he said that MPEG4 would be on the satellite in the fall and no new HD would be added until then. Can somebody explain to me how MPEG4 is going to do us any good without a receiver for it? I don't see any new HD channels that we can actually watch for at least a year from now, probably longer.

Nothing but smoke and mirrors. 

When I signed up with E*, I did so planning on upgrading to an HD DVR reciever as soon as it was availabe. At the time, my local cable company had no HD at all and only a few HD channels planned. Now I can get more HD from cable than satellite. The cable programming package is more expensive than AEP, but when I add the $42/month for the 921 in, cable is cheaper. The user interface on the cable HD DVR is not as nice as the 921, but I may put up with it anyway. I am not going to upgrade to a 942, so when the MPEG4 reciever is out, if I don't get a good upgrade to it, I will go back to cable.

Looking a bit farther down the road, as more MPEG4 HD programming is put on the satellites, capacity will be become a problem again. What will be the first MPEG2 channels pulled off to make more room? The HD ones of course, as they take up so much more bandwidth than the SD. At that point, the 921 is truely useless.


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## bpauld (May 8, 2004)

Me too. Comcast here I come.


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Jim Parker said:


> ...Looking a bit farther down the road, as more MPEG4 HD programming is put on the satellites, capacity will be become a problem again. What will be the first MPEG2 channels pulled off to make more room? The HD ones of course, as they take up so much more bandwidth than the SD. At that point, the 921 is truely useless.


I agree that 921 users got the shaft.

But, when new HD comes along, I don't see it affecting the existing channel lineup. I would guess that many existing SD channels will shift to the new 105 satellite, and free up some room on 110/119. MPEG-4 compression will allow about twice the number of channels as MPEG-2 in the same bandwith.


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

Mikey
I very well could be wrong, it's happened once or twice before.  It's pure speculation on my part as to what E* will do several years in the future. I doubt that they know what they are going to do next year, let alone 2 or 3 years out. That's a cheap shot, but it is such an easy one.  Still, I think that the HD MPEG2 channels will be the first to come down when they need more room.

Anyway, you bring up an interesting point for me. I can barely see 110 above the mountains here in Anchorage. It takes a 6' dish to get a strong enough signal, the 4' dish was dropping out a lot. 105 is most likely below the mountains for me. Any channels that get moved to 105 are going to be lost to me. Now if they move Bingo and 2 shopping channels to make room for 1 HD channel, fine. However, if my wife loses the Soap channel, there's going to be hell to pay. :lol: 

Any idea when 105 is supposed to be operational?


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## Mikey (Oct 26, 2004)

Jim Parker said:


> ... Any idea when 105 is supposed to be operational?


Here's a link to a previous thread about 105.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=39358&highlight=105

Or you can do a forum search on AMC-15 and/or AMC-16.


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## DonLandis (Dec 17, 2003)

The 921's best days were between January and March 2004 where it was held in exclusive HDTV DVR position. When the HDTIVO released it was in extremely short supply but quickly took the lead with capability and present reliability. In June of 2004 the HDTIVO became available to anyone who wanted one. In the Fall of 2004 E* dropped the price and the 921 became available. Today, Costco has a pallet load of them sitting on the floor at less than 50% of original price and they are not moving! 

I enjoyed my 921 for about 6 months, even with all the bugs, it still was more reliable than my previous DVHS solutions. I got excellent use from it during Fall of 2004 even though HDTIVO quickly assumed the roll for reliable trouble free OTA and Sat recording and live viewing although I quickly became Tivoized as in only watching NBR shows on Season Pass and doing the commercial skip. So easy, while the 921 was so annoying by comparison. Then in the beginning of December, Eldon issued a new software upgrade to L211 that destroyed what little use I was getting because everything I saw on the 921 was jittery. It was unusable until they released another software L212 that fixed the jitters but still all my sat channels are now stuck in fat mode and nothing SD is watchable, only HD channels that do not stretch Fat. 
Now we get a single rave review from Mark on the 942. NOT the rave review(s) that was referenced. It has not reached more than one person that we know of from here. In addition, while I know Mark put a ton of effort into his well written masterpiece, the fact is that this 942 is a temporary solution, some say less than a year before they obsolete it with an MPEG4 capable receiver. The so called "futureproof 921" is certainly not futureproof which has now become another lie on the part of E*. Fact is the only solution I see after the 921 is to move on to a more credible, reliable vendor for your DBS services. While VOOM has the best overall programming if HDTV is what you want, their future is questionable. You don't want to invest money as that may become a short life investment as well. Currently there is no DVR solution but they have "promised it by June" Believe that if you wish. The next VOOM hurdle is March 31st! Will VOOM be off the air or will Dolan achieve his goal and we will have the VOOM HDTV ultimate solution? We wait as no body knows the answer. That leaves D* who is in a bind to add more HDTV for their HD TIVO best DVR solution. They have a similar problem of moving to MPEG4, so we all look to D* to make some sort of offer for upgrade. Currently there are only unofficial rumors that D* will have their own solution and will not abandon the HDTIVO customers. We wait and see.

Personally, that mix leaves me in an uncertain state as to what to plan for. My best bet is on remaining things as status quo until VOOM has commitment. Once that is in place, and they release a DVR in June, VOOM could be the best bet for HDTV DVR capability for the next year, especially if their DVR can be rented! Second, I would look to DirecTV for what they offer in early 2006 for the DVR MPEG4 system. Nothing is coming out in the next 6 months. If it is, it is the best kept secret.
Finally, the only way I will buyinto a 942 is if E* announces all plans to scrap MPEG4 transition, make a sensible deal for 921 owners and announce addition of 15 more HDTV channels. I don't care how they achieve that without MEPG4. 

The other question is whether E* will continue to fix what's broke on the 921. Frankly, I believe that no matter how great and perfect the 942 is, based on what has happened in the 921, 811, 6000, and 5000/HDTV mod, bugs for the 921 will continue to take 9 months or more to get resolved and bugs for the 942 will probably take 6 months to get resolved after the first software update. If MPEG4 begins to roll out, look for any fixes on the 942 to take the back burner as well. 
The bottom line is that the 942 is to be born with a known fatal birth defect. Buy it if you want for that ridiculous $250 plus monthly rent but fact is you'll be on your own when they do MPEG4. I would hold out for a real rental program on the 942 if you must have it, especially if you have spent money on the 921.


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## EJP (Jun 16, 2004)

I agree. I am too far from Seattle to get locals with an antenna. $10.00 for a couple of HD Chanel's and no HD locals is not worth it. I am canceling the HD package or should I say (NON PACKAGE) today. I do like the 921. It is sooo much better then when I first got it. I'll see what happens with the MPEG4. But I'm not holding my breath.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

I have as much sympathy for 921 owners who are upset about missing features and buggy software as I will have for 942 owners next year who are complaining that the new MPEG-4 channels can't be received on their DVR. These problems were all expected when the 921 was released.


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## Ben Hodson (Mar 10, 2005)

How many of you have really tried to get a deal from Dish? I have had great luck with them as far as getting upgrades and great customer support. I have never dealt with and large service based company and gotten service as good as I have from Dish. Try talking with the cancellation department before you jump ship. I was in the same boat you are ready to leave Dish until I talked to some people there and explained my situation. they offered me several good upgrade solutions that they would work with me on. Once the 942 is offered if you have been a long time Dish customer say 3-4 years, have large amount of programing and have paid for equipment in the past I would be surprised if they won't work something out with you. Now I admit that the first level of CSR may not be the most knowledgeable but if you can get beyond them you can get things done. Don't get upset with them just explain the situation and why you think you have been wronged and why you are thinking of leaving. When I called I told them how I wanted to upgrade to the 921 and offered me a fee month of service for each 921 I got. So in my case that worked out to about 100 dollars off each box. later when I found out it would cost me about another 300 dollars to upgrade all the other equipment (Switch, LNBS, and service call) I called back and said I thought it was unfair that they charge me to upgrade my hardware that they choose to change. i used the argument that if I were a new subscriber they wouldn't charge me for this. They then offered to upgrade all that equipment for free and sched the service call right then. 

So anyway maybe I am the exception but I have had nothing but great customer service from these people. I admit it would be nice if their product worked better... But at least i get nice poeple to deal with when I call to complain. 

Ben


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## M492A (Nov 18, 2004)

Maybe it can't be done due to hardware differences, but having read Mark's review, it'd be great if they could take the 942 software and backfit it onto the 921, disabling or removing the 942 features that the 921 wouldn't handle.


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

With the level of problems that have plague the 921, if Dish was a "nice decent" company, they would offer an even swap of 942 for 921 for those who want to.

But then again, this is Dish and we all know how well they take care of their existing customers.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

M492A said:


> Maybe it can't be done due to hardware differences, but having read Mark's review, it'd be great if they could take the 942 software and backfit it onto the 921, disabling or removing the 942 features that the 921 wouldn't handle.


That would be a stretch. They use different chipsets for 8VSB, and for video output. Plus, you have to remember that Dish doesn't want to give you NBR unless you upgrade your box! Why give it to you for free when they can charge you again for it! :bang


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

"The bottom line is that the 942 is to be born with a known fatal birth defect. "
Well put. That's exactly why I am not going to buy one.



Cyclone said:


> I have as much sympathy for 921 owners who are upset about missing features and buggy software as I will have for 942 owners next year who are complaining that the new MPEG-4 channels can't be received on their DVR. These problems were all expected when the 921 was released.


I bought one of the very first 921s available on Dec 31, 2003. I expected bugs, but it has totally astounded me what a poor job Eldon has done on fixing the bugs. However, I can live with the buggy software. None of the bugs have stopped me from using the 921. It was not expected that the 921 was born with a defect that would limit it to such a short life span.

What really burns me is that there is so little HD available and that there never will be any more for the 921. Charlies statement on one of the chats that the 921 was what the customer need for all future HD and his more recent statements that no new HD was being added because there was no "compelling content" were outright lies. The real truth is that there was not enough bandwidth, a fact that should have been obvious to the E* engineers.

I understand why E* needs to go to MPEG4, and am willing to stay with E* if they give the 921 and 942 owners a decent deal on an upgrade when an MPEG4 box is available. If not, it's back to cable for me.


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

DonLandis said:


> The bottom line is that the 942 is to be born with a known fatal birth defect.


Very well said Don! That plus Eldon's deplorable 921 record (BTW, are they the 942 support team too? Now there's something to think about :eek2: &#8230 is discouraging at best. :nono2: I look at the 942 as E*'s new "carrot" - same stick, same strings, but a nice shiny new "carrot". :sure: Yep, all things considered, I think it prudent to put everything on hold and just wait and see if they can just make the 921 work. 

_Anyone care to place a bet about that last part? _ :lol:


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

invaliduser88 said:


> With the level of problems that have plague the 921, if Dish was a "nice decent" company, they would offer an even swap of 942 for 921 for those who want to.
> 
> But then again, this is Dish and we all know how well they take care of their existing customers.


This is unrealistic. No company is going to take back a $1000 receiver unless the things have been exploding.

Now that it is dropped, I hope they continue to follow the Dishplayer path...... Inept software updates until the thing is discontinued and the thing magically becomes much more stable 6 months later.....


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

BobMurdoch said:


> This is unrealistic. No company is going to take back a $1000 receiver unless the things have been exploding.


It isn't unrealistic. Think about it from the E* perspective. They sell a 921 for $500 retail. The upgrade to lease the 942 is $250. All they have to do is accept your 921 as a trade-in to cover that lease fee, then lease it to you. Echostar then turns around and sells your 921 for $300 as a refurbished unit at satelliteguys.us!

If any of you want to do it, you can. Sell it on EBay to cover the cost for your up front lease fee. If you can do it, E* can do it, only they will try to convince you that they are doing you a favor. :nono2:


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## bavaria72 (Jun 10, 2004)

AVJohnnie said:


> ....That plus Eldon's deplorable 921 record (BTW, are they the 942 support team too? Now there's something to think about :eek2: &#8230;:


I believe I read from Mark that the 942 was completely developed in Colorado and Eldon has nothing to do with it.


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## BobMurdoch (Apr 24, 2002)

Except the resale price will plunge as an HD PVR receiver will lose its appeal if it can't access the HD channels. I expect E* to do what they did last time and when they moved the HD channels off the wings. How soon until they try and grab back bandwidth by dropping the Mpeg 2 feeds. If D* has 1500 channels and his handing them their lunch they will be grabbing bandwidth like crazy to try and keep pace.

If they DON'T go down that road, I'll be jumping to D* anyway to get to all of the HD channels.


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

bavaria72 said:


> I believe I read from Mark that the 942 was completely developed in Colorado and Eldon has nothing to do with it.


If so, I missed it... Is this correct Mark? Or are you not allowed to say?


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

BobMurdoch said:


> Except the resale price will plunge as an HD PVR receiver will lose its appeal if it can't access the HD channels.


That appeal will drop the resale price, and it will also drop the retail price. That won't be limited to the 921, the 942 will share that same problem. No exceptions, they will both turn into boat anchors.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

AVJohnnie said:


> If so, I missed it... Is this correct Mark? Or are you not allowed to say?


Yes.. I remember Mark saying that Eldon had nothing to do with the 942.


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## Mark Lamutt (Mar 24, 2002)

Here it is again 

The 942 was developed in Denver. Eldon is in England. The two haven't met.


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## Cyclone (Jul 1, 2002)

Jim Parker said:


> I understand why E* needs to go to MPEG4, and am willing to stay with E* if they give the 921 and 942 owners a decent deal on an upgrade when an MPEG4 box is available. If not, it's back to cable for me.


I tell you. Voom has been beefing up their SD lineup. If they have a HD DVR out by the time MPEG-4 comes around, and they are still in Business. I might give them a call. They already have the HD lineup to shame Dish.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Here it is again
> 
> The 942 was developed in Denver. Eldon is in England. The two haven't met.


 :roundandr


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## AVJohnnie (Jul 27, 2004)

Mark Lamutt said:


> Here it is again
> 
> The 942 was developed in Denver. Eldon is in England. The two haven't met.


Okay -- That's _certainly_ an improvement (I think :grin: ) in favor of the 942 

Thanks!


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## Jim Parker (Aug 12, 2003)

Cyclone said:


> I tell you. Voom has been beefing up their SD lineup. If they have a HD DVR out by the time MPEG-4 comes around, and they are still in Business. I might give them a call. They already have the HD lineup to shame Dish.


Yeah, but how much of it is "compelling content"?  I just took a look at the Voom line up.

http://www.lyngsat.com/packages/voom.html

Some are very compelling to me, (Gallery, Rave, Starz, Cinemax, Movie Channel), but I can live without the Auction HD channel. 

Unfortunately for me, Voom does not service Anchorage. At least that is what their web page says. The only Voom satellite I see on lyngsat is at 61, way below my horizon.


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Jim Parker said:


> Unfortunately for me, Voom does not service Anchorage. At least that is what their web page says. The only Voom satellite I see on lyngsat is at 61, way below my horizon.


Ya never know what will happen with V*. It is possible that E* will buy their transponder rights on 61.5, voom will stay in business, however, they will have to move to another satellite. Let's say they move to 110 out of some freakish move. Then, maybe your 6' dish will work!  We can always hope, right? :lol:


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## Bradtothebone (Aug 11, 2003)

jsanders said:


> That appeal will drop the resale price, and it will also drop the retail price. That won't be limited to the 921, the 942 will share that same problem. No exceptions, they will both turn into boat anchors.


OK, let's say that E* starts putting new HD channels on MPEG-4 on January 1, 2006 (arbitrary date). On that date, with your 811/6000/921/942, you will still, in all likelyhood, be able to receive everything that's in the HD pack today, HBO-HD, SHO-HD, and OTA HD. Even if the MPEG-2 HD channels go away sometime in the future (let's say January 1, 2007, again arbitrary), you will still have MPEG-2 SD channels and OTA-HD for the forseeable future (probably the life of the receivers).

In other words, all these receivers will probably retain a good bit of value for some time into the future. All this talk about "boat anchors" is kind of funny, in my opinion. (No offense to you, jsanders, the term has been used by many.)

The thing that I continue to wonder about is whether E* and D* will continue to support OTA ATSC on their receivers after they start offering HD locals (why would they?) This will probably become a moot point, anyway, as more new TV's are sold with ATSC tuners built in. The only real issue is that the integrated DVR, as we now know it, might go away.

Brad


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## jsanders (Jan 21, 2004)

Bradtothebone said:


> (No offense to you, jsanders, the term has been used by many.)


No offense taken Brad. In fact, I agree completely with what you said! 

My comment only had relevance as a counter-argument to the following:



invaliduser88 said:


> With the level of problems that have plague the 921, if Dish was a "nice decent" company, they would offer an even swap of 942 for 921 for those who want to.





BobMurdoch said:


> This is unrealistic. No company is going to take back a $1000 receiver unless the things have been exploding.





jsanders said:


> It isn't unrealistic. Think about it from the E* perspective. They sell a 921 for $500 retail. The upgrade to lease the 942 is $250. All they have to do is accept your 921 as a trade-in to cover that lease fee, then lease it to you. Echostar then turns around and sells your 921 for $300 as a refurbished unit at satelliteguys.us!
> 
> If any of you want to do it, you can. Sell it on EBay to cover the cost for your up front lease fee. If you can do it, E* can do it, only they will try to convince you that they are doing you a favor.





BobMurdoch said:


> Except the resale price will plunge as an HD PVR receiver will lose its appeal if it can't access the HD channels.


At this point, I considered that to be a lame argument, cuz what was said would apply to both receivers (921 and 942). Hence, the statement you were referring to. What you said also applies, better even, as a counter argument for that statement!


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## invaliduser88 (Apr 23, 2002)

What companies selling/giving away hardware at a loss, while recooping it through month service charges...goosh that's never happened before...


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## hildred (Aug 19, 2003)

yes is there a local channel fee if so how much on this unit


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## chuckbernard (Aug 3, 2004)

Ben Hodson said:


> How many of you have really tried to get a deal from Dish? I have had great luck with them as far as getting upgrades and great customer support. .....Once the 942 is offered if you have been a long time Dish customer say 3-4 years, have large amount of programing and have paid for equipment in the past I would be surprised if they won't work something out with you. Ben


Well, I've been with Dish for at least 5 years now. It has been too long to remember exactly. I've always subscribed to EVERY channel that they have available. My bill is between $90 and $110 every month and I have autopay so I always pay on time. I've bought all of my equipment including $1000 for this 921. I have always done my own installs to boot!

I called and explained to them that I bought it a year ago and after about a week I realized that it was not working properly because of software issues and called to return it. I was told by a CSR that software updates were on the way to address all of my issues. I even watched the tech forum and Charlie Chat where these opinions were more or less stated again. So, instead of returning it I kept it with the promise that things would be fixed.

I explained that it has been nearly a year and with each software update things more often than not got worse. First, I lost local channels, then they came back but I had zero second recordings and failed timers. I explained that the last straw was when it erased all of the recordings I had made over the last year. I can't rely on it to record my programs and it can't keep the ones I had.

The CSR was very nice and actually seemed to know that I wasn't making these things up even if they probably aren't allowed to admit it.

I just said that I've had enough and for a $1000 it should at least provide basic functionality. I explained that I either wanted a refund for the unit or some other form of compensation and that I was open for suggestions.

He talked to "someone" that could authorize something for me. After about 4-5 minutes he came back and said that "buyers remorse" was for 30 days and that I had it too long. There was NOTHING they could do to help me. I explained again that I wanted to return it before 30 days but was assured that the problems would be fixed so I didn't.

So, there you go! This is the E* policy with their deceived and ripped off customers.

I already have my HR10-250 here and I'm waiting for the dish to arrive so I can switch to D*.

This is the VERY worst consumer product EVER sold as far as I can recall and I've been around for years. Maybe Ralph Nader wants to do to E* what he did to GM years ago. This would be a slam dunk case and put him back in the spotlight. Hmmm, I'll try to contact him.

At least I will be writing to every consumer columnist with this horror story. I'll call the consumer protection radio programs here locally and see if they can help. I'm also sure that the laws here in California are designed to help consumers. Maybe our attorney general's office will be hearing from me. Small claims court???

Anyway, there is no way in *ell that I'll ever subsribe to E* again AND there is no way anybody I know will do it either. All of my friends and family that I hooked up will soon start hearing from me and hopefully they will go a different path too. I'm hoping between me, my friends, my family, the readers of the local papers, and listeners of the local radio stations will cause enough pain to make me feel I got my $1000 worth out of E*.


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