# Black Bars



## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

I got the 622 this week and think it is great. However the black bars are annoying.

TV1 is a 36" Sony with 4:3 ratio. To display HD, I set the receiver to 1080i. For HD, it looks great. There are black bars at the top and bottom, but that's expected for HD. For SD, I also get black bars on the left and right. So, for the majority of the channels, I have a large black border around all edges of the picture. I can sort of fix this by setting the receiver to display 480p. When I do that, the whole screen is used. For SD it looks great. For HD, it looks Ok, but 1080i looks much better. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to switch between 480p for SD and 1080i for HD. By the way, the "format" button on the remote does not solve this.

TV2 is a 26" Olevia with 16:9 ratio. For SD there are black bars on the left and right as expected. For HD, part of the picture is cut off on the left and right and the rest fills the screen. I don't want to lose part of the picture. I can use the "format" button to add black bars to the top and bottom and then I don't lose part of the picture, but the TV is already 16:9 ratio and so it doesn't need black bars on the top and bottom.

On both TVs I have unwanted black bars. It seems as though the receiver forces TV1 to be 16:9 and TV2 to be 4:3. I would think it would be very common to have a 4:3 TV1 and a 16:9 TV2.

Other than that, the receiver is great and the picture quality is better than I expected. It's just the darn black bars that are so disappointing.

Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get rid of them?

TIA


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

dowzer said:


> Does anyone have any tips or suggestions on how to get rid of them?


Yup. Press MENU, Press 6, Press 8, move left to Aspect Ratio and try 4:3 #1 or try 4:3 #2. There is a discussion in the manual which describes the appearacne problen on the 4:3 screen and tells you which will fix the condition. In your case, just switch to the other setting and you should the problem solved. (If it is set to 16:9 when you get there, try one or the other 4:3 and see if you solved it... if not, come back and try the other 4:3.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually if you do a search on my Name and 4x3 you will find some discussion on this. I went through this with my Sony and I have not followed all my options, but basically out of the box this is a work as designed.

What is happening when you set your TV to 4x3 and 1080i or 720p is that the Sony sees it as and HD signal and processes as a 16x9 TV and you see it sqwished. That is why with 480p 4x3 your guide fills the screen but it does not with 1080i.

Helpful discussion links
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=56241
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=56446&highlight=4x3

If you can find a way to get the 4x3 to work on a Sony and fill the screen on the guide at 1080i or 720p I would be very interested. My last avenue is the service menu and I need to circle back when I have time.


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## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

Ron Barry said:


> Actually if you do a search on my Name and 4x3 you will find some discussion on this...


Thanks for the direction, Ron. I had done a search previously, but not a very good one.

If I am understanding this correctly, when my 36XBR450 sees a 1080i signal, it automatically adds the top and bottom bars even if the signal carries a 4:3 picture. It isn't the receiver, it is the TV.

I'm not sure if it is appropriate to mention here, but I will do it anyhow: I wonder if the TV's service menu has anything to turn off the automatic 16:9 conversion. Other than that, it sounds like we are just out of luck.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Actually the service menu is the next place I plan on looking. Yes the TV does not actually add bars (At least I don't think that happens. What they do is take the 1080i signal and display it in the 16x9 format. At least that is how I understand it. There is no 1080i or 720p 4x3 HD format. 

I have walked the road you are currently walking. If I ever get back to this issue and find a solution, I will let you know. I did read that some TVs can handle the 4x3 1080i configuration, so their is some hope. 

oh.. by the way.. just noticed your are new :welcome_s


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## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

When I get a chance, I will do some reading at agoraquest and see if anyone there has a solution.

Thanks again.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> ...
> 
> I have walked the road you are currently walking. If I ever get back to this issue and find a solution, I will let you know. I did read that some TVs can handle the 4x3 1080i configuration, so their is some hope. ...


Ron and dowzer, again "Press MENU, Press 6, Press 8" and read the Help screen.

I believe the very situation you are trying to resolve is discussed there and it explains the difference between 4:3 #1 and 4:3 #2. You both need to try both of these settings to find the correct one.

Hey, I tried.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

So did I Saltidog. Tried both 4x3 settings at 1080i and 720p and both are squished. This is also what I got with my 921 hooked up to the same set.


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## SaltiDawg (Aug 30, 2004)

Ron Barry said:


> So did I Saltidog. Tried both 4x3 settings at 1080i and 720p and both are squished. This is also what I got with my 921 hooked up to the same set.


Thanks for the feedback, it works on my ancient 4:3 SD TV.


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## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

SaltiDawg said:


> Thanks for the feedback, it works on my ancient 4:3 SD TV.


Unfortunately our Sonys are attempting to solve what it thinks is a problem by displaying the 4:3 picture in the 16:9 format because it detects a 1080i signal.

It is frustrating because it is a great TV and is only about 4 years old. That and I'm reminded of the money I paid for it every time I see the little picture it displays.


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## n0qcu (Mar 23, 2002)

Even though 4x3 TV's that squeeze a 1080i signal to a 16x9 (letterboxed) type of image are a pain when trying to watch a 4x3 image (you either need to change inputs on the TV or the output of the STB) you are getting a better image than you would on a TV that the STB had to squeeze the image because in the first example ALL 1080 lines are in the actual image and in the second the black bars are using a portion of the 1080 lines reducing the amount available for the image.

Sorry about the long sentence. 

I think I heard on the last tech chart that they will be adding native pass through which will solve this problem with 4x3 sets.


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

dowzer said:


> Unfortunately our Sonys are attempting to solve what it thinks is a problem by displaying the 4:3 picture in the 16:9 format because it detects a 1080i signal.
> 
> It is frustrating because it is a great TV and is only about 4 years old. That and I'm reminded of the money I paid for it every time I see the little picture it displays.


Same with my friend's TV, he has a 36" XBR 4:3 TV from about the same time, same issue. The Sony TV automatically forces you to run 16x9 when it detects a 1080i signal (the only HD signal it accepts). This has nothing to do with the DISH Receiver. The only work around we found was to set the 622 to be 480p, when you do that the TV let's you pick whether you want 16:9 or 4:3, but then you are sacrificing picture quality. No win situation.

I think Sony changed their software on later models but I'm not sure.


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## barchamb (Jun 23, 2006)

I have a Philips 60PP9202, which is a 4:3 HTDV. It only accepts 480p and 1080i. I have my 622 set to 1080i. As with the others in this discussion, it letterboxes all 1080i content it receives, regardless of whether it is 16:9 or 4:3. So, when I watch SD content, it has the normal letterbox bars on the top and bottom, with the addition of 4:3 bars on the left and right.

I went into the menu, and noticed that my 622 was set to 16:9. I changed it to 4:3 #1, and with that setting, with SD content, I can press the Format button on the remote and cycle between Normal, Stretch, Partial Zoom, Full Zoom, and Grey Bars, or something like that. If I change to 4:3 #2, or leave it at 16:9, the Format button does not do anything (if I am remembering correctly, I'm not in front of the TV right now).

I hate Stretch because it makes all the SD content look short and fat. I also don't like Full Zoom, as I feel I lose too much content that way. However, Partial Zoom totally works for me. I do lose a little content, but it really only bugs me in sporting events that have a scoreboard or ticker at the bottom, which gets lost.


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## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

I found a compromise to the black bars that I am willing to accept.

Watching HD content on the Sony 4:3 TV is fine the way it is. The problem is when watching SD content. I get black bars on top, bottom, left and right.

The compromise is to connect the 622 to an additional TV input via an S-Video cable.

For HD content I switch the TV to one input (labelled HD) that is connected via component. For SD content I switch the TV to a different input (labelled SAT) that is connected via S-Video.

I know this solution isn't much different than changing the receiver output between 1080i and 480p but it seems to be less button pushes on the remote and I don't have to see the different menus which distract me from watching TV.


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## Stewart Vernon (Jan 7, 2005)

It sounds like the problem is related to the 4:3 HDTVs and how they decide to process HD signals sent to them. If I am reading all this correctly, it sounds like the TV has its own logic that determines how it displays, and that is constantly competing with whatever you set the receiver to do.

SD 4:3 TVs seem to react correctly... but HD 4:3 is confused.

I wonder, just out of curiosity... what happens if you "lie" to the Dish receiver and tell it that you are connected to a 16x9 HDTV? Since it sounds like your TV is assuming it is getting a 16x9 signal anyway, I'm curious how it reacts if you actually send it one proper?


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## dowzer (Jun 23, 2006)

I think the problem is with the TV and not the receiver.

Setting the receiver to 16:9 or 4:3, the TV still displays black bars. I think the problem is that when the TV detects 1080i, it displays the content in 16:9; regardless of if you want it to or not. From the responses I've read, this doesn't happen with every 4:3 TV, but it does happen with some Sony TVs.

When the TV gets the signal from S-Video it seems to work fine. The quality of the signal probably isn't as good, but S-Video still looks decent. It's much better than TV2 whose signal which comes on coax.



HDMe said:


> It sounds like the problem is related to the 4:3 HDTVs and how they decide to process HD signals sent to them. If I am reading all this correctly, it sounds like the TV has its own logic that determines how it displays, and that is constantly competing with whatever you set the receiver to do.
> 
> SD 4:3 TVs seem to react correctly... but HD 4:3 is confused.
> 
> I wonder, just out of curiosity... what happens if you "lie" to the Dish receiver and tell it that you are connected to a 16x9 HDTV? Since it sounds like your TV is assuming it is getting a 16x9 signal anyway, I'm curious how it reacts if you actually send it one proper?


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## Duffman (Jul 10, 2006)

Hi folks, just joined and was looking for a solution to the very problem discussed in this thread.

I just switched to Dish and the 622 today and I can't believe that I may have to live with either using multiple video inputs for SD and HD, or live with using only the middle portion of my Sony 40" tube.

I get what has been said previously about the tv trying to adjust for what it thinks is HD content, but I *really* think this is a receiver issue and not a tv issue.

I had comcast and the motorola hd/dvr and it always displayed SD and HD channels in the correct aspect ratios.

There's no way I'm setting the receiver to 480p.....this is frustrating...


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Duffman said:


> I get what has been said previously about the tv trying to adjust for what it thinks is HD content, but I *really* think this is a receiver issue and not a tv issue.
> 
> I had comcast and the motorola hd/dvr and it always displayed SD and HD channels in the correct aspect ratios.


I'm not positive but I believe (based off of watching a Comcast HD DVR box at a friend's house, it works because the comcast box does native pass through. i.e. when you tuned to an SD channel the box outputs 480i, which your Sony TV recognizes as SD and removes the automatic letterboxing. Then you change to an HD station that is say 1080i, and it then puts the letterboxing back in. I'd hazard to guess that if you watched 4:3 content on an HD station on that comcast box you'd get blackbars all around. The top and bottom from the TV and the sides from the content.


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## Duffman (Jul 10, 2006)

That sounds about right. 

It's the ultimate in irony that I switched from Comcast partly because their receiver/dvr box was lame and now I get a noticeably better box but with a huge, glaring aspect ratio problem.

The big question is can I now turn this problem into a valid argument to convince my wife we need to replace the Sony XBR40 with something newer...hmmm


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## Rob Glasser (Feb 22, 2005)

Duffman said:


> The big question is can I now turn this problem into a valid argument to convince my wife we need to replace the Sony XBR40 with something newer...hmmm


Now your thinking  How, about, now that there is so much HD content out there I think it's time to get a real 16:9 TV so we can really take advantage of the format. Plus the new TVs are so thin it will look at lot better than this huge 40" CRT. Plus it's a lot lighter so it's easier to move. Oh, and prices have come down so much it's really not all that much. =) Maybe some of those will work.


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## Ron Barry (Dec 10, 2002)

Duffman, 

If you noticed I have been down this road. It is for sure not a receiver bug but more lack of a feature (Native Passthrough). I personally watch my 4x3 at 480p all the time and personally find the quality to be outstanding (Mine is a 32" Sony). This also is not a TV bug, but purely the nature of HD and the fact of no 4x3 1080i/720p supported format. The only road I have not checked out yet (Due to to time contraints on my part) is possibly a service menu setting that might help. 

Dish has indicated that there is plans to add native passthrough. When ofcourse is the big question and for now 480p delivers what I need on my set.


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## Duffman (Jul 10, 2006)

Thanks guys.

Ron, solid arguments with the exception of the size/flatness thing. Believe it or not I actually had that massive 250+ pound CRT installed in-wall over my fireplace with a nice finished wood frame. It's actually more flush than a plasma would be BUT... I think it's still time to head down to Costco and look at some o' them big new screens. I've had my eye on the Sony 60" SXRD but I'm still not sure whether to go DLP or plasma.

Dowzer,

I did indeed read your posts before I spoke up. Did you end up toggling between s-video input and component (or HDMI) to compensate for the ratio issue? Or do you actually watch everything in 480p? I think I will probably go the s-video/HDMI input switching route until I upgrade the set.

Scott


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