# DirecTV will sell HR 44s to Solid Signal and Weaknees - but not me



## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

Short story - I'd like a Genie but I can't use an HR34 because my installation is on an inside wall so I can't get a hardwired internet connection to my rcvr. As it stands, I had to run the coaxes up through the floor to feed my HR 22. Yes, I know about the Cinema Bridge but that's not what I want. I'm the customer, I want an HR 44.

A few weeks ago, a CSR told me that right after Memorial Day, I could call in and specifically order an HR 44 and I could get one. I called today. A very nice CSR told me, no, there was no guarantee I'd get an HR 44. Place an order and I might get a 44 but it might be a 34. We chatted for a bit and he told me that thanks to my account status, there'd be no upcharge to go to a Genie but, again, no guarantees. Well, I said, I can wait until the 34s run out and then order a 44. He pointed out that it might be a while - they sent out 22s for a long time after the 24s became available and I know for a fact that's true. In fact, I got a replacement 22 two days before the Super Bowl this year. 34s will be coming back to DTV and getting refurbed and then shipped out for years. Then the CSR very politely pointed out that Solid Signal have the 44s in stock. I thanked him and hung up and an hour later I got an email from Weaknees; they have 44s, too. Ready to ship.

DirecTV will sell HR44s to Solid Signal and to Weaknees but not to me. I'm not sure what I'm going to do but I do know this sucks out loud.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

As with their previous HRs, DirecTV considers the Genies the same. Just like you couldn't (and still can't) order an HR24, you can't order the 44.

But if you're in such good standing, you might want to call back and see if you can order a 44 from Solid Signal or Weaknees and get a credit from DirecTV. Others have reported being able to do that (but not very often). 

Good luck.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

According to DirecTV, an HD DVR is an HD DVR, regardless of which HR2x model it is, and a Genie is a Genie, regardless of which HRx4 model it is.

The only guaranteed way to get an HR44 is to order from a 3rd party vendor. However doing so may well not get you a reimbursement from DirecTV for the cost.

Now, if you were to upgrade to a Genie, would it be the only unit in your house, or would you also have another Hx2x device (or simply access to your DirecTV coax) someplace where there is internet available? If the latter, you are still okay, the internet does not have to be connected directly to the HR34/44.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

I have an HR 22 that can be - and is - connected to the Internet.

But that's not really the point.

When I call up and ask for an HR 44, I'm told there are no guarantees, take what you get. When SS or Weakness calls, "Sure. How many do you want?"

What would people do if they were told if that the only way to get the latest iPhone would be to call A T & T and pay top dollar; call Apple and you might get an iPhone 5, you might get a reconditioned iPhone 4. What kind of crap is that?


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## 443544 (Oct 23, 2006)

I know what you mean, but that's DirecTV's policy and always has been. I went through this when the HR24's came out, fought and fought with them, refused multiple 22's that came to the house. Finally I bought one from a third party vendor because I just couldn't wait. Now I'm in the same boat for the HR44 but just can't bring myself to pay $300+ for one when I'm told I can have a free upgrade for a Genie if I just take what they give me. Decisions......


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## sregener (Apr 17, 2012)

DirecTV lost me as a customer over this exact issue. I had a dog of an HR22-100. At the time, the HR24 was a pretty quick DVR (fast enough for my needs.) But DirecTV could not and would not guarantee me that when I got a new receiver it wouldn't be another HR22-100 or other slower model. I figured out that I could buy an HR24 from Solid Signal, but it would be about $500 cheaper to switch to Dish and get their new Hopper for free, as well as the new customer discounts. I simply could not afford to play receiver roulette with DirecTV by signing a 2-year contract without knowing if I'd have a slow or a fast DVR. All they had to do was promise me an HR24, but nobody, not customer retention or anybody else I spoke to at DirecTV as I went through the cancelation proccess, could do that.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

Dish does the same thing with boxes like the 622 and 722.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

It is amazing how ridiculous DirecTV’s policy is. The HR34 and the HR44 are NOT equal and anyone other than the ‘Great DirecTV Defenders’ will acknowledge that. Problem is, DirecTV makes money by the truckload and part of the reason they do is because of asinine policies like this. Don’t expect it to change any time soon.

I’d love to do the Solid Signal thing but I’m not willing to pay my way out of DirecTV engineering stupidity again… Paid for 3 HR24s to be rid of ridiculously slow HR22s only to have DirecTV ‘upgrade’ the HR24s to make them slower with firmware updates. Who is to say that if I pay Solid Signal for the privilege getting an HR44 and it fails 3 months later I won’t just get an HR34? They are the ‘same’ right? Nope.

What are they going to do when someone initially gets an HR44 and figures out they can use RF and IR remotes at the same time only to have the HR44 fail? What if they replace it with an HR34 and now they can’t use their Slingbox without buying a third party remote solution? The HR44 and HR34 are the same right? Nope.

What if someone builds their system around the small size of the HR44 and gets a HR34 to replace a failed HR44? The HR44 and the HR34 are the same right? Nope.

Now those that come to the defense of DirecTV will say that DirecTV will only replace a 44 with a 44 but if that’s true then DirecTV must have an inventory system that knows 44s are not 34s and that contradicts previous statements that DirecTV’s system doesn’t differentiate between them. Can’t have it both ways.

DirecTV knows the HR34 is not ‘equal’ to the HR44 but isn’t going to change their policy because the bottom line is what is most important.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

+1


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> It is amazing how ridiculous DirecTV's policy is.


I'm sure this opinion comes from your point of view.
If I can't get the latest & greatest for free, then "it sucks".
On the other side: what are they to do with older models when a new one comes out?

A HR44 isn't the same as a HR34, but after using someone else's HR24 for a while, "I wish I had" a HR34 instead as it's a lot closer to the 44.


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## trh (Nov 3, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> DirecTV knows the HR34 is not 'equal' to the HR44 but isn't going to change their policy because the bottom line is what is most important.


It probably is all about the bottom line. Which is what a for-profit company is supposed to do.

If it bothers you that much, let DirecTV know and vote with your wallet as others have done and get another provider.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I'm sure this opinion comes from your point of view.
> If I can't get the latest & greatest for free, then "it sucks".
> On the other side: what are they to do with older models when a new one comes out?
> 
> A HR44 isn't the same as a HR34, but after using someone else's HR24 for a while, "I wish I had" a HR34 instead as it's a lot closer to the 44.


Yep - just my point of view...

I said nothing about getting the latest and greatest for free. If I wanted to pay double for HR44 they could still send me a beat to hell HR34.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

So just order it from SS or weaknees and move on


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

trh said:


> It probably is all about the bottom line. Which is what a for-profit company is supposed to do.
> 
> If it bothers you that much, let DirecTV know and vote with your wallet as others have done and get another provider.


No probably about it. If it didn't improve the bottom line they wouldn't have the policy. They pick a target and go for it. If they piss too many people off and they start to leave they'll change. If they make too many people happy and it cuts into the bottom line they'll change. If they are on target for the best bang they'll stay as-is.

I know the policy and live with it. I am considering 'cutting the cord' but more because of the increasing costs, DVR sluggishness and the repeating cycle of screwed up updates. Not really the topic of this thread...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Yep - just my point of view...
> 
> *I said nothing about getting the latest and greatest for free*. If I wanted to pay double for HR44 they could still send me a beat to hell HR34.


I know you didn't, but that does seem to be the TS's position starting this thread, which you were quick to jump into.
"Seems like" someone so concerned with keeping the same model, would be well served to have the protection plan, so any replacement will be the same model.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

CCarncross said:


> So just order it from SS or weaknees and move on


What happens if it dies? Will it be replaced with an HR34?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Not really the topic of this thread...


Maybe not, but also a favorite of yours it seems.

Knowing "what we do", how long will it be before the 44 falls into your "DVR sluggishness and the repeating cycle of screwed up updates."?


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I know you didn't, but that does seem to be the TS's position starting this thread, which you were quick to jump into.
> "Seems like" someone so concerned with keeping the same model, would be well served to have the protection plan, so any replacement will be the same model.


Point taken.

Is the protection plan policy that you'll always get the same model? So they do have inventory control systems so they know where a particular model is headed? I guess that would be a double edged sword too. What if you have the protection plan and an HR22? Does that mean you're stuck with HR22 until you buy your way out? Just curious...


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> Point taken.
> 
> Is the protection plan policy that you'll always get the same model? So they do have inventory control systems so they know where a particular model is headed? I guess that would be a double edged sword too. What if you have the protection plan and an HR22? Does that mean you're stuck with HR22 until you buy your way out? Just curious...


That is the way the plan was explained to me, though I've never used or had it.
The PP folks do seem to have access to a third inventory "program".
If I had a HR22, I'd try the same thing I did with a HR20, where I had a service call and got it swapped for a HR24 [because there was one on the truck].


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

For 90% or more of DirecTV's customers there is no functional difference between the HR34 and HR44. For those who absolutely, positively must have a HR44 (for whatever reason) there is always the independant reseller channel. If your HR44 fails, you can get another from, say, Solid Signal (at least until there is a HR45 or some other, latest, greatest thing that some people will just HAVE to have).

However, to say DirecTV is responsible for providing a replacement with the same form factor as the original is as unreasonable as saying that Whirlpool is responsible for providing a replacement microwave oven with same form factor as the unit you built into your kitchen previously.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Maybe not, but also a favorite of yours it seems.
> 
> Knowing "what we do", how long will it be before the 44 falls into your "DVR sluggishness and the repeating cycle of screwed up updates."?


That would be up to DirecTV engineering.

You seem to be one of the more level thinking straight shooters around here. If you don't think the number of updates sent out over the last 4 or 5 months is unusual maybe I am just to picky. If you don't think the HR24s were faster and more responsive when I paid $600 than they are now maybe I am just to picky. If you can compare the 'speed' of DirecTV receivers to ANY Dish Network receivers and not see the difference then I am just to picky.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Diana C said:


> For 90% or more of DirecTV's customers there is no functional difference between the HR34 and HR44. For those who absolutely, positively must have a HR44 (for whatever reason) there is always the independant reseller channel. If your HR44 fails, you can get another from, say, Solid Signal (at least until there is a HR45 or some other, latest, greatest thing that some people will just HAVE to have).
> 
> However, to say DirecTV is responsible for providing a replacement with the same form factor as the original is as unreasonable as saying that Whirlpool is responsible for providing a replacement microwave oven with same form factor as the unit you built into your kitchen previously.


Reading here the HR44 is the fasting thing around. If 90% of DirecTV's customers wouldn't notice the downgrade from a 44 to 34 then I am too picky.

I am not willing to pay $349 for an HR44 from SS with what essentially equates to an as-is purchase. If it fails in 3 months (or two days for that matter) I should have to pay another $349 and another 2 year commitment? That doesn't sound reasonable to me, and I suspect 99.99% of everyone else. I can a buy a $19 toaster and get a better warranty than that.

Of course Whirlpool is going to replace my microwave with the same size - at least for a reasonable amount of time. 10 years later they likely still will not because they have to but because they want to sell me a new microwave. 3 weeks after my microwave is installed they are not going to make me remodel my kitchen or use a counter top microwave just because 'there is no functional difference'.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> You seem to be one of the more level thinking straight shooters around here. If you don't think the number of updates sent out over the last 4 or 5 months is unusual maybe I am just to picky. If you don't think the HR24s were faster and more responsive when I paid $600 than they are now maybe I am just to picky. If you can compare the 'speed' of DirecTV receivers to ANY Dish Network receivers and not see the difference then I am just to picky.


I do try to shoot straight.
I haven't counted the updates of late. "I'd guess" there are more in them for compatibility with other products these days, than we had in the old days.

You can I have been back and forth over the 24s before, and if I hadn't been using this HR24-100 of late, I'd have no idea how much it differs from the two HR24-500s I had.

I don't care about Dish, just like I don't care about U-Verse, or comcrap.
If any of these were "the standard" for what I wanted, it would make sense to use their service, wouldn't it?


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

The bottom line is companies have policies that sometimes lead to customer dissatisfaction. I have Verizon cell phones, despite the fact that Verizon has some of the most consumer hostile policies in the industry. Why? Because they have the best network, and being able to make a call when I need to is the most important factor, to me. By the same token, there are some policies of DirecTV's that I am not totally pleased with, and which I wish were more like Dish Network's. However, I have been a Dish customer in the past and I prefer DirecTV because they seem to me to pay more attention to infrastructure (my opinion only - I don't want this to become a Dish vs. DirecTV discussion). 

Several years ago, my therapist told me "we are all responsible for our own happiness." While the context was far more serious than selecting TV service, it is a good axiom for all aspects of life. Getting angry and ranting about the same issues over and over is not productive. We need to pick the best options available for us and then move on. If something more appealing comes along, we should switch. Life is too short, and full of REAL issues and obstacles to spend anytime at all getting upset over what model DVR one can or can not buy.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Mike Greer said:


> That would be up to DirecTV engineering.
> 
> You seem to be one of the more level thinking straight shooters around here. If you don't think the number of updates sent out over the last 4 or 5 months is unusual maybe I am just to picky. If you don't think the HR24s were faster and more responsive when I paid $600 than they are now maybe I am just to picky. If you can compare the 'speed' of DirecTV receivers to ANY Dish Network receivers and not see the difference then I am just to picky.


The speed and responsiveness of my HR24-500 remained the same the two years I used it. Looking back, prior to getting my HR34-700 the HR24-500 was the most reliable of all the HD DVR's I've had. I've never witnessed a side by side speed comparison between DirecTV and DISH receivers. Given that I'll take your statement that DISH receivers are faster with a grain of salt.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Mike Greer said:


> The HR34 and the HR44 are NOT equal and anyone other than the 'Great DirecTV Defenders' will acknowledge that.


I was simply posting DirecTVs policy, not defending it. There are a great many things I do not agree with as a consumer (and this certainly is not limited to DirecTV). Fact of the matter is, businesses listen to the consumer through the bottom line. If this particular policy was "that big a deal" to "that many customers", it would change.


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## usnret (Jan 16, 2009)

I like D and will not change. What I don't like is the fact that D sez that the HR34 and HR44 are the same and the HR44 is not an upgrade. They are not the same, in my opinion.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> I do try to shoot straight.
> I haven't counted the updates of late. "I'd guess" there are more in them for compatibility with other products these days, than we had in the old days.
> 
> You can I have been back and forth over the 24s before, and if I hadn't been using this HR24-100 of late, I'd have no idea how much it differs from the two HR24-500s I had.
> ...


I haven't counted the updates either but there is no doubt there have been multiple updates that don't even make through to everyone before an update to the update is released.

I've only had HR24-500s - is the -100 quicker/slower more/less troubles?

I don't really care about Dish either but I do know how much quicker ALL of their HD DVRs are over DirecTV's DVRS. Maybe the HR44 will finally compete speed wise but I haven't seen one.

You wouldn't be able to use Dish if you wanted Sunday Ticket.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Diana C said:


> The bottom line is companies have policies that sometimes lead to customer dissatisfaction. I have Verizon cell phones, despite the fact that Verizon has some of the most consumer hostile policies in the industry. Why? Because they have the best network, and being able to make a call when I need to is the most important factor, to me. By the same token, there are some policies of DirecTV's that I am not totally pleased with, and which I wish were more like Dish Network's. However, I have been a Dish customer in the past and I prefer DirecTV because they seem to me to pay more attention to infrastructure (my opinion only - I don't want this to become a Dish vs. DirecTV discussion).
> 
> Several years ago, my therapist told me "we are all responsible for our own happiness." While the context was far more serious than selecting TV service, it is a good axiom for all aspects of life. Getting angry and ranting about the same issues over and over is not productive. We need to pick the best options available for us and then move on. If something more appealing comes along, we should switch. Life is too short, and full of REAL issues and obstacles to spend anytime at all getting upset over what model DVR one can or can not buy.


I agree with all of this.

One thing I want to make clear is that none of this makes me happy/sad etc. It is TV service and if it completely went away today I would be just fine. Its not like any of this stuff really matters in life. It is entertainment - note heart medicine, child birth, or growing old. It is just TV.

The facts remain - the policy of 'You get what you get' with DirecTV is stupid. I don't like it but it won't change. I only post about it because not everyone knows how it works.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MysteryMan said:


> The speed and responsiveness of my HR24-500 remained the same the two years I used it. Looking back, prior to getting my HR34-700 the HR24-500 was the most reliable of all the HD DVR's I've had. I've never witnessed a side by side speed comparison between DirecTV and DISH receivers. Given that I'll take your statement that DISH receivers are faster with a grain of salt.


I don't doubt that you didn't or haven't noticed any change but I and many many others as posted here through the cycles of updates have noticed and continued to notice the speed and response changes with many of the updates. If there was to go back to pre-HDGUI versions and stay there you would see far fewer people posting here about troubles with their receivers not responding or being slow.. Including me.

Take my comments about Dish HD DVRs with a grain of salt - that doesn't change the fact that Dish Network HD DRVs are much quicker than DirecTV's with the possible exception of the HR44. I've all the others first hand - just not the HR44.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

carl6 said:


> I was simply posting DirecTVs policy, not defending it. There are a great many things I do not agree with as a consumer (and this certainly is not limited to DirecTV). Fact of the matter is, businesses listen to the consumer through the bottom line. If this particular policy was "that big a deal" to "that many customers", it would change.


Sorry - I wasn't referring to you specifically.

And you are correct. It would change if enough people canceled over it. Truth is most people don't know what the policy is or even care about it. I suspect it is a small percentage of people that ever have to deal with it. Hell, the majority of DirecTV customers think they own their receivers!


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

> I haven't counted the updates either but there is no doubt there have been multiple updates that don't even make through to everyone before an update to the update is released.
> 
> I've only had HR24-500s - is the -100 quicker/slower more/less troubles?
> 
> ...


Mike, my HR24-100s are almost as fast as my sons H21.
Having said that, note that I do not make use or have Whole Home DVR, nor am I connected to the internet in any fashion.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

IMO, regarding the "Get what you get" policy, DirecTV should implement the simple guidelines of...

a.) If you're getting a free discounted receiver, then you get whatever is available.
b.) If you're wanting a specific model, then you pay the normal amount.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Mike Greer said:


> Sorry - I wasn't referring to you specifically.
> 
> And you are correct. It would change if enough people canceled over it. Truth is most people don't know what the policy is or even care about it. I suspect it is a small percentage of people that ever have to deal with it. Hell, the majority of DirecTV customers think they own their receivers!


You do realize that we here on DBSTalk represent a very small percentage of DirecTV's customers and are far more tech savvy than the vast majority of DirecTV's customers. Given that, it's safe to assume that vast majority of DirecTV customers have no idea there are various versions of their receivers and therefore would never think of threatening to cancel their service if they don't get the latest equipment.


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## jimmie57 (Jun 26, 2010)

> IMO, regarding the "Get what you get" policy, DirecTV should implement the simple guidelines of...
> 
> a.) If you're getting a free discounted receiver, then you get whatever is available.
> b.) If you're wanting a specific model, then you pay the normal amount.


+1
Also:
c.) If you are getting a replacement it should be as new as the one being replaced.

I have written this to DirecTV in the past.
I just had an HR23-700 replaced with an HR24-100 and it made me very happy to get it. I was definitely pleasantly surprised.


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## SolidSignal (Oct 3, 2007)

We understand the frustration that customers have with ordering from DIRECTV. As you say, their systems don't distinguish between models, and that's one of the reasons we are here, to give choosy customers the equipment they want.

I don't want to cross the line into this becoming an advertisement for Solid Signal, but I am happy to answer any questions about our processes and how we can help members of this site. We watch this site carefully and respond as quickly as possible to private messages.

Thanks,

Solid Signal.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

jimmie57 said:


> Mike, my HR24-100s are almost as fast as my sons H21.
> Having said that, note that I do not make use or have Whole Home DVR, nor am I connected to the internet in any fashion.


That's a good point when it comes to speed. My HR24-500s are much more responsive if I disable the network by plugging an Ethernet switch and then booting up. This essentially removes Whole-Home and the Internet. Trouble is I need/want Whole Home...


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

sigma1914 said:


> IMO, regarding the "Get what you get" policy, DirecTV should implement the simple guidelines of...
> 
> a.) If you're getting a free discounted receiver, then you get whatever is available.
> b.) If you're wanting a specific model, then you pay the normal amount.


That would be a great way to deal with it. As long as they can't/don't downgrade you if what you paid for fails...


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

MysteryMan said:


> You do realize that we here on DBSTalk represent a very small percentage of DirecTV's customers and are far more tech savvy than the vast majority of DirecTV's customers. Given that, it's safe to assume that vast majority of DirecTV customers have no idea there are various versions of their receivers and therefore would never think of threatening to cancel their service if they don't get the latest equipment.


Yep - I realize that. That's why I don't think it will ever change.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

Diana C said:


> The bottom line is companies have policies that sometimes lead to customer dissatisfaction. I have Verizon cell phones, despite the fact that Verizon has some of the most consumer hostile policies in the industry. Why? Because they have the best network, and being able to make a call when I need to is the most important factor, to me. By the same token, there are some policies of DirecTV's that I am not totally pleased with, and which I wish were more like Dish Network's. However, I have been a Dish customer in the past and I prefer DirecTV because they seem to me to pay more attention to infrastructure (my opinion only - I don't want this to become a Dish vs. DirecTV discussion).
> 
> Several years ago, my therapist told me "we are all responsible for our own happiness." While the context was far more serious than selecting TV service, it is a good axiom for all aspects of life. Getting angry and ranting about the same issues over and over is not productive. We need to pick the best options available for us and then move on. If something more appealing comes along, we should switch. Life is too short, and full of REAL issues and obstacles to spend anytime at all getting upset over what model DVR one can or can not buy.
> 
> ...


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## bananfish (Aug 13, 2007)

I realize that some of the board veterans hate threads like this because they get tired of hearing complaints about DirecTV policies that seem set in stone. But complaining, and complaining loudly, is one of the tools that consumers have to get policies changed. Perhaps not as effective a tool as walking out to DishTV or another vendor, but still an arrow in the quiver.

So I, for one, love that this thread exists. Contributing this post to this thread is one of the ways that I have to communicate what I am dissatisfied with to DirecTV.

I despise DirecTV's "no difference to see here, move along" policy. And I despise DirecTV's "every customer for himself" way of doing business that requires that I play CSR roulette to get a fair deal whenever I want anything. I have had a broken DVR in my bedroom since January, and have been waiting now for almost 5 months for the HR44 to be available to replace it. The fact that I am faced with the decision to either pay $399 to Solid Signal or play Price Roulette with whatever CSR I can talk into whatever deal I can and then play Genie Roulette with whatever installer I get just infuriates me.

If DirecTV did not have those policies, it would have my undying loyalty, but as it is, I feel absolutely no loyalty toward DirecTV and would walk to a better deal in a heartbeat. I like the TV service, I like the offerings and I like Season Ticket, but I despise those policies.

Rather than wish that this thread would just go away, as some seem to be in favor of, I wish this thread was 1000 pages long with lots of customers angry and dispirited from DirecTV's nonsensical policies.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

bananfish said:


> I realize that some of the board veterans hate threads like this because they get tired of hearing complaints about DirecTV policies that seem set in stone. But complaining, and complaining loudly, is one of the tools that consumers have to get policies changed. Perhaps not as effective a tool as walking out to DishTV or another vendor, but still an arrow in the quiver.
> 
> So I, for one, love that this thread exists. Contributing this post to this thread is one of the ways that I have to communicate what I am dissatisfied with to DirecTV.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I've only had HR24-500s - is the -100 quicker/slower more/less troubles?
> 
> I don't really care about Dish either but I do know how much quicker ALL of their HD DVRs are over DirecTV's DVRS. Maybe the HR44 will finally compete speed wise but I haven't seen one.
> 
> You wouldn't be able to use Dish if you wanted Sunday Ticket.


This is sort of the problem we all have here. We only know what "we have",
I had two HR24-500s coax connected and they were fine and faster that what I have before.
I'm now using a HR24-100 and "this one" is a snail at times.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

bananfish said:


> I realize that some of the board veterans hate threads like this because they get tired of hearing complaints about DirecTV policies that seem set in stone. But complaining, and complaining loudly, is one of the tools that consumers have to get policies changed. Perhaps not as effective a tool as walking out to DishTV or another vendor, but still an arrow in the quiver.
> 
> So I, for one, love that this thread exists. Contributing this post to this thread is one of the ways that I have to communicate what I am dissatisfied with to DirecTV.
> 
> ...


So, you want freebies to be handed to you with zero effort and don't want to ask for them? Do you pay sticker price for cars, too, and expect a dealer to give you discounts?


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## sregener (Apr 17, 2012)

Diana C said:


> If your HR44 fails, you can get another from, say, Solid Signal (at least until there is a HR45 or some other, latest, greatest thing that some people will just HAVE to have).
> 
> However, to say DirecTV is responsible for providing a replacement with the same form factor as the original is as unreasonable as saying that Whirlpool is responsible for providing a replacement microwave oven with same form factor as the unit you built into your kitchen previously.


I think the average customer would complain if they paid for a new microwave and a warranty, took it home and had it die a few weeks later. They'd complain very loudly if after returning it for a full refund, they were told that they were tied to a 2-year contract for that microwave. They'd really yell if the store then gave them as a replacement for that 2013 microwave a 1980 model. In fact, I'd suspect that the warranty would be deemed fraudulent in a court of law.

Bottom line is this: DirecTV took a couple billion of their customers money and handed it to the NFL to make sure that those customers would have no choice but to accept whatever garbage DirecTV decided to hand out. This is why their DVRs continue to fail to perform at acceptable speeds, why they claim "model number ignorance" and so many other anti-customer things. They have you by sensitive parts of the anatomy, and they are acting that way.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

sregener said:


> I think the average customer would complain if they paid for a new microwave and a warranty, took it home and had it die a few weeks later. They'd complain very loudly if after returning it for a full refund, they were told that they were tied to a 2-year contract for that microwave. They'd really yell if the store then gave them as a replacement for that 2013 microwave a 1980 model. In fact, I'd suspect that the warranty would be deemed fraudulent in a court of law.
> 
> Bottom line is this: DirecTV took a couple billion of their customers money and handed it to the NFL to make sure that those customers would have no choice but to accept whatever garbage DirecTV decided to hand out. This is why their DVRs continue to fail to perform at acceptable speeds, why they claim "model number ignorance" and so many other anti-customer things. They have you by sensitive parts of the anatomy, and they are acting that way.


Your microwave example is absurd and nowhere near the same. You don't lease a microwave or agree to contract committing you to a period of time.

As for ST, commercial accounts are a massive portion of ST costs. Do you realize how much a decent size sports bar pays for ST? DirecTV also has only about 2 million ST subscribers, so they'd still thrive with 18 million subs if every ST dependent sub left.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

bananfish said:


> I realize that some of the board veterans hate threads like this because they get tired of hearing complaints about DirecTV policies that seem set in stone. But complaining, and complaining loudly, is one of the tools that consumers have to get policies changed. Perhaps not as effective a tool as walking out to DishTV or another vendor, but still an arrow in the quiver.
> 
> So I, for one, love that this thread exists. Contributing this post to this thread is one of the ways that I have to communicate what I am dissatisfied with to DirecTV.
> 
> ...


Let's see. Your bedroom DVR failed in January. Had you contacted DirecTV then they would have replaced it for you. Instead, "you" chose to wait all this time for the HR44's release. On top of that you're complaining you now have to decide whether to purchase a HR44 from Solid Signal or gamble on getting one from DirecTV. I fail to see how you are the injured party.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

And both satellite providers have the same policy, no guarantee within class. And last time I had cable (admittedly a long time ago), you got whatever they gave you, which could be ancient.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

dpeters11 said:


> And both satellite providers have the same policy, no guarantee within class. And last time I had cable (admittedly a long time ago), you got whatever they gave you, which could be ancient.


That is semi-true with Comcast in my area... But... at least here Comcast will swap boxes with you for no charge. Years ago I wanted the 'new' Motorola box and I just took my old one down to their office... Took all of about 10 minutes and drive time to get the latest and greatest then. The girl asked me why I wanted to swap and I told her I wanted the newer box. She said oh, ok and swapped them out.

With Dish it is less of an issue... or at least it was because for about the same price as DirecTV leases their receivers I bought and owned Dish Network receivers (still have them in the basement somewhere).


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Two comments here. First, as a mod I have to remind those assembled that it's ok to express a differing opinion but let's remember that no one likes to feel attacked. Please keep it civil. 

Now as to the lease model... I understand that to the average consumer a DVR is an appliance and if any of your other appliances broke you would not expect to be treated this way. The difference is that DIRECTV hardware is heavily subsidized. You get a lot of things for free or below cost when you sign that commitment. Your relationship with the microwave's manufacturer ends when you buy the microwave, and the price you pay is a fair profit for all involved. With DIRECTV (or DISH) hardware, you get a lot of equipment and a lot of labor for free and the costs are tied into the service you pay for. 

I personally don't like this model. I'd rather pay cash for my satellite system, cash for my phone, cash for everything rather than get put into a subsidized deal. But, I don't have a choice. I've been told that in certain cases DIRECTV does make higher-risk customers pay more for their hardware, but they still have to sign a commitment. If I paid cash for my phone, I'd still have the same monthly bill, even though I'm not subsidizing free hardware. 

As for the matter of dealing with licensed third parties, I think it's great that there are options out there so you can get what you want.

DIRECTV is hardly alone in providing a pool of equipment from different manufacturers; most providers are small enough that a single manufacturer covers all needs, but even so... if I went to my local Time Warner Cable I would have no choice whether I got a 5-year-old Motorola POS DVR or the latest new hotness. Of course, saying "everyone else does it" isn't an excuse, but perhaps everyone does it because the overarching majority simply don't care what manufacturer or model they get.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Two comments here. First, as a mod I have to remind those assembled that it's ok to express a differing opinion but let's remember that no one likes to feel attacked. Please keep it civil.
> 
> Now as to the lease model... I understand that to the average consumer a DVR is an appliance and if any of your other appliances broke you would not expect to be treated this way. *The difference is that DIRECTV hardware is heavily subsidized*. You get a lot of things for free or below cost when you sign that commitment. Your relationship with the microwave's manufacturer ends when you buy the microwave, and the price you pay is a fair profit for all involved. With DIRECTV (or DISH) hardware, you get a lot of equipment and a lot of labor for free and the costs are tied into the service you pay for.
> 
> ...


Do you know the actual cost to Directv for an hd dvr or a Genie? I'm thinking when the customer pays an up front fee of $199 for an hd dvr, they have paid most of the cost to Directv for it. I'm sure the same goes for the Genie.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

Should I reschedule for the Genie upgrade or hope the tech shows up with the 44 as I'm in the Chicago DMA? install date is for tomorrow morning. I want to cover all my options for people that have upgraded to the 44 from the HR34.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

A couple of pertinent notes. A few years ago, I paid $919 for an HR-250. A few years after that, I threw it in the dumpster along with all the other MPEG 2 hardware I had acquired because DTV decided to switch to MPEG 4.

As for the HR44, I didn't ask for a deal, wasn't trying to get something for nothing. I expected to pay $100 as an upgrade fee along with freight charges to return the old HR 22-100 that they shipped me in February.

With all due respect to SS, I would prefer to deal directly with DTV. If something goes wrong, I want to call one source. I don't want to call a different vendor every time something goes wrong. "Let me have the serial number, if it is the memory, you'll have to contact Pace. If it is the hard drive, Western Digital. If it is software related, we might be able to help you, I'll have to ask. Can I put you on hold?"


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

studechip said:


> Do you know the actual cost to Directv for an hd dvr or a Genie? I'm thinking when the customer pays an up front fee of $199 for an hd dvr, they have paid most of the cost to Directv for it. I'm sure the same goes for the Genie.


I don't know the exact component costs but between hardware and software development it would greatly surprise me if the cost to DIRECTV was anywhere near as low as that. At one point, several years ago I was told it cost about $700 to build an HR20, just parts and not counting software development. I'd think it's come down from that somewhat but HR44s have more tuners, bigger drives, faster chips, better engineering, etc.


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## bananfish (Aug 13, 2007)

sigma1914 said:


> So, you want freebies to be handed to you with zero effort and don't want to ask for them? Do you pay sticker price for cars, too, and expect a dealer to give you discounts?


I never asked for a freebie ... would be willing to pay some premium for the box I want.

As far as your car analogy, it's a perfect one - I hate car shopping too, and so does every single person I know. I similarly feel absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to any car company. I just bought a new car a week and a half ago, and despite my best efforts to make it a smooth and easy process with a fair profit for the dealer, the dealer lied baldfacedly to me about two different things, dragged out the process, infuriated me, and then gave me the price that I came in with (which I had gotten through my insurance company's pricing service). I will never buy a car from the same dealer again, and will recommend that my friends do not shop there either.


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## bananfish (Aug 13, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> Let's see. Your bedroom DVR failed in January. Had you contacted DirecTV then they would have replaced it for you. Instead, "you" chose to wait all this time for the HR44's release. On top of that you're complaining you now have to decide whether to purchase a HR44 from Solid Signal or gamble on getting one from DirecTV. I fail to see how you are the injured party.


 Never said I was injured. Said I hated a few of DirecTV's policies - said I liked their TV services and offerings as well.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't know the exact component costs but between hardware and software development it would greatly surprise me if the cost to DIRECTV was anywhere near as low as that. At one point, several years ago I was told it cost about $700 to build an HR20, just parts and not counting software development. I'd think it's come down from that somewhat but HR44s have more tuners, bigger drives, faster chips, better engineering, etc.


It's not directly comparable, but a decent CPU can be had for $500 with pretty much the same components except the tuners. That's to buy, not the cost.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

studechip said:


> It's not directly comparable, but a decent CPU can be had for $500 with pretty much the same components except the tuners. That's to buy, not the cost.


PCs are manufactured from VERY high volume components. The economy of scale factors are very different. DirecTV DVRs are effectively custom built (volumes in the 10s to low 100s of thousands per model). PCs are manufactured in high 100s of thousands per model, from commodity components.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

bananfish said:


> I never asked for a freebie ... would be willing to pay some premium for the box I want.


and just enlighten me, why you get to choose the price for something that is not yours.....


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

FarNorth said:


> My reply: Ahh, baloney. The air must be a little thin up on your high horse...


I don't own a horse, high or otherwise. I have just been in truly desperate circumstances and had to make life altering decisions that caused enormous pain to myself and those I care about. So, I may have a somewhat different perspective on life's priorities. I wish you to be so blessed in your life that having to worry about whether you can specifically order a particular model of DVR is a high priority. I hope you can appreciate how lucky you are.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Second warning, please be nice to each other. This is a good topic and if a few bad apples cause it to be closed, it will be a loss for the whole board


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Diana C said:


> PCs are manufactured from VERY high volume components. The economy of scale factors are very different. DirecTV DVRs are effectively custom built (volumes in the 10s to low 100s of thousands per model). PCs are manufactured in high 100s of thousands per model, from commodity components.


Of course there are many more pcs than dvrs, but they aren't making a few hundred or so. They make enough of them that the price differential isn't that much than if they were making a lot more. Are you saying that Directv uses better components than pc makers?


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Not better, but lower volume. I know you are having trouble believing it, but most of the components in a DVR are quite unique while the ones in pcs are shared across many manufacturers.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not better, but lower volume. I know you are having trouble believing it, but most of the components in a DVR are quite unique while the ones in pcs are shared across many manufacturers.


Perhaps, but there really isn't that much to them parts wise. I don't see the cost being all that high.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

With respect, I disagree.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

If you're correct .... then why would DTV sell DVRs to SS or WK at a huge loss? SS has HR 44s listed at $349 so they must be buying them for, say, $280. Why would DTV sell something for $280 that cost them $700? And back to my original point, why won't DTV sell me an HR 44 for $349 instead of selling to SS and keep the profit for themselves?


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Aren't the receivers and DVRs Solid Signal sells as "FOR COMMERCIAL USE ONLY" owned by the commercial account? If so, it seems difficult to believe that Directv would sell them at a loss. They cost more than the residential lease price for the same model, but not all that much more.

I think some people are overestimating the complexity of a satellite receiver. The SoC, RAM, and flash appear to be of comparable spec to what you find in a midrange wireless router, which sells for $50. Purely commodity parts. Ditto for the power supply, ethernet and HDMI PHYs and so on, and for the hard drive in the DVRs. Those will all be pretty much the same as you find in PCs everywhere.

The only bit of hardware I can think of inside any Directv receiver or DVR that's not a mass market commodity part is the satellite tuner, but there is likely little change in the hardware used for satellite tuner chips since Directv went to SWM, aside from building in DECA. I'm sure they roll a new version every couple of years to take advantage of newer semiconductor technology allowing for smaller chips or for more tuners on a chip, and may occasionally take advantage of the opportunity to add new stuff that will only be used in future - like how they added SWM to the H20's tuner before it existed as a product.

They may well use a single rev of the tuner chip across all receivers made over a two year period, so the economies of scale aren't what the big boys get, but are better than a simplistic view that assumes because they only sell 'x' of a given receiver model that's the economy of scale they have to work with.


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## sregener (Apr 17, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Now as to the lease model... I understand that to the average consumer a DVR is an appliance and if any of your other appliances broke you would not expect to be treated this way. The difference is that DIRECTV hardware is heavily subsidized. You get a lot of things for free or below cost when you sign that commitment. Your relationship with the microwave's manufacturer ends when you buy the microwave, and the price you pay is a fair profit for all involved. With DIRECTV (or DISH) hardware, you get a lot of equipment and a lot of labor for free and the costs are tied into the service you pay for.


Since you brought up cell phones, let's look at what an analogous relationship with your cell provider would look like.

You want a new cell phone, a Samsung Galaxy S4. The cell phone company that has coverage in all the places you want says, "We'll give you a free Samsung Galaxy, but we can't promise you it would be an S4. It might be an S2 or an S3, as those are functionally equivalent and our system has no way to know which one we're sending you." But you really want the S4, so you go online and look around, and find a place that will sell you a Samsung Galaxy S4 for $249. Both come with the same contract to the cell phone company, the same terms and conditions, but the $249 price is the only way to be sure you get the S4. They also tell you you should pay $10/month for their "protection plan" such that they will replace it in case anything happens to it during your contract period. You purchase the protection plan and the S4 from the company. Two months later, the cell phone just stops working. Not sure why. You submit it for replacement and they honor their protection plan and ship you... a highly scratched up, "refurbished" S2. And you have to take it, because you're under contract. On what planet would this be right or fair?

If there really was no difference in models, I would have left DirecTV anyway. I couldn't stand waiting 40 seconds on startup to change the channel with young children in the room and no way to get the images off the screen because the DVR was completely ignoring every button press. I got in the habit of turning on the receiver 5 minutes before we intended to watch anything. It felt like going back to the days of tube radio, waiting for the tubes to warm up. And even after the 5-minute warmup, it was still unresponsive at times. Since I left, DirecTV added one of my must-have HD channels, and I'd love to come back for the higher-quality HD picture, but I absolutely cannot and will not subject myself to receiver roulette.

As for Dish doing the same thing, I'm a little surprised by the claim. When I ordered my service, I got to select my model from a pull-down list. And I can go online today and order a second receiver and choose between a Hopper and a Hopper 2. They aren't going to give them to me for free (which seems fair enough to me) but I do get to pick my model. And if my Hopper died, they'd replace it with a Hopper or Hopper 2, but not a 722k. I can't imagine they'd replace a Hopper 2 with an original Hopper, either. Maybe somebody somewhere has a horror story, but I haven't heard it yet. And if I talk to a DIRT member, they can often handle my "special requests" for hardware. None of this garbage of "we don't know what's in the box, just that it's an advanced DVR."


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

FarNorth said:


> If you're correct .... then why would DTV sell DVRs to SS or WK at a huge loss? SS has HR 44s listed at $349 so they must be buying them for, say, $280. Why would DTV sell something for $280 that cost them $700? And back to my original point, why won't DTV sell me an HR 44 for $349 instead of selling to SS and keep the profit for themselves?


DirecTV isn't selling to SolidSignal or Weaknees, they are both DirecTV Retailers. SolidSignal and Weaknees lease the receivers FOR DirecTV.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

sregener said:


> Since you brought up cell phones, let's look at what an analogous relationship with your cell provider would look like.
> 
> You want a new cell phone, a Samsung Galaxy S4. The cell phone company that has coverage in all the places you want says, "We'll give you a free Samsung Galaxy, but we can't promise you it would be an S4. It might be an S2 or an S3, as those are functionally equivalent and our system has no way to know which one we're sending you." But you really want the S4, so you go online and look around, and find a place that will sell you a Samsung Galaxy S4 for $249. Both come with the same contract to the cell phone company, the same terms and conditions, but the $249 price is the only way to be sure you get the S4. They also tell you you should pay $10/month for their "protection plan" such that they will replace it in case anything happens to it during your contract period. You purchase the protection plan and the S4 from the company. Two months later, the cell phone just stops working. Not sure why. You submit it for replacement and they honor their protection plan and ship you... a highly scratched up, "refurbished" S2. And you have to take it, because you're under contract. On what planet would this be right or fair?


 :up:

Cell companies are not perfect but they have a much more reasonable prorated early termination policies. No fracking lease. They apparently want to keep their customers. It seems they will continue to set the standard if they move to eliminate subsidies.

I doubt there is much difference in the cost of an HR34/HR44 and an iPhone 5.

Our iPhone 4's (AT&T) were out of contract awhile back and we switched to AirVoice prepaid. Same network. Almost identical service. HUGE $$$ savings. Which shows how much people are getting ripped off by these providers.

Isn't it interesting that there are 2 cell networks that all the providers run over. Just like there are 2 sat "networks". Sat TV needs a lot more regulation. Anti-regulation people can whine but phone looks better than TV.


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## Greg4050 (Jun 10, 2010)

I agree with FarNorth on this topic. I have been a customer since the early 90's and have only had a truck out to my house twice. I have purchased the ST every year since its inception and also subscribe to a fairly high monthly package. I think its safe to say that I have paid for any equipment DTV was nice enough to let me use. (Which is funny because I've paid for everything except a SWM upgrade.)

I was perfectly happy to buy the receiver I wanted, if I wanted it before DTV would give it to me, but now my purchase is really just a lease. With all the new avenues for media to reach us, I think DTV is closer to losing more customers than they realize. 

I originally went with them because they were the only option I had. Now I already have Comcast in the house for broadband, (I'm even paying them an extra $20 for basic cable that I dont use... but that is another gripe.) and ST was really the only thing keeping me. I "bought" 2 500s when they came out, but I wont be playing this game anymore. It's not even the "cost" of the lease, its the extra 2 year commitment you "agree" to when you make the upgrade. 

The NFL is has jumped the shark. First, you couldnt make any contact with the QB above his shoulders and now RBs will be getting penalties for inadvertent contact.  It's only a matter of time before the combination of lawsuits from retired players and the player pool drying up because parents no longer let their kids play, kills the cash cow.

I'm also a small business owner. Whenever I have a new product or service, I look through our customer database and reach out to those I think would be most interested. How hard would it be for DTV to do the same? They always ask where I got the receiver I activated, so I imagine they have it on record that I'm a Solid Signal customer. As others have posted, we a very small portion of their customer pool, but I bet we represent enough revenue for this to be worth the little time I think it would take to implement.

What you've been paying for HD? Too bad we are going to give it away free only to new customers unless you call and pitch a fit.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Not better, but lower volume. I know you are having trouble believing it, but most of the components in a DVR are quite unique while the ones in pcs are shared across many manufacturers.


I call B.S. on this. The only unique part is the main chipset, and D* deals in high volume so they'd get a huge discount. I make something that uses similar horsepower for a much, much, much lower volume, and that chipset costs $300. I bet D*'s price is around $200. Everything else is off-the-shelf parts or a one-off of an existing product, including the hard drive which is a PC's. Based on my experience, my estimate for parts & assembly of that DVR is around ~$350.

Since D* can charge the same upfront lease fee multiple times for the same box, the boxes assembly (and probably the R&D costs) costs are more than paid for.

Getting back to the topic, FIOS customers can pay a one time $40 fee to upgrade to the latest box, and all replacements will be the same or better. That kind of program would please the 5% of people who aren't happy with the old boxes.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

unixguru said:


> :up:
> 
> Cell companies are not perfect but they have a much more reasonable prorated early termination policies. No fracking lease. They apparently want to keep their customers. It seems they will continue to set the standard if they move to eliminate subsidies.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on more regulation for Satellite TV. We need more government in our lives like Custer needed more Indians!


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I personally don't like this model. I'd rather pay cash for my satellite system, cash for my phone, cash for everything rather than get put into a subsidized deal. But, I don't have a choice


Cash rules everything around me, dollar dollar bill y'all


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## bananfish (Aug 13, 2007)

peds48 said:


> and just enlighten me, why you get to choose the price for something that is not yours.....


I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't get to choose the price ... DirecTV does. What I do get to choose is the price I am willing to pay. If DirecTV had a policy that customers could, for instance, get the HR34 for X dollars or they could instead pay a premium for the HR44 -- i.e., X + PREMIUM -- I could make a sensible choice as a consumer. As it is, they charge some customers hundreds of dollars and other customers nothing, and then they essentially dictate which product the customer will get (and which product the customer will get if the original product breaks down).


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

MysteryMan said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on more regulation for Satellite TV. We need more government in our lives like Custer needed more Indians!


Generally I don't like government involvement either. How are these issues going to get addressed otherwise? Didn't other utilities go through a similar transition?


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

unixguru said:


> :up:
> 
> Cell companies are not perfect but they have a much more reasonable prorated early termination policies. No fracking lease. They apparently want to keep their customers. It seems they will continue to set the standard if they move to eliminate subsidies.
> 
> ...


Cell companies have the same exact monetary termination clause that DirecTV has, you want to terminate your contract early for a smartphone pay a final bill that is not pro-rated and a termination fee on each and every line on the plan if you are on a family plan - if you have 5 lines in contract you pay 5 termination fees. On a smartphone the ETF is 325.00 - (10.00 * each completed billing cycle), on a QMS it is 150.00 - (4.00 * each completed billing cycle). If you cancel 1 day before the contract is over you still own a 85.00 etf on a smartphone and 54.00 on a QMS device.

Now how exactly is a cell phone ETF policy more reasonable then DirecTV?

As far as your comparison to cost, you are going same network to same network, if you wanted to go to T-Mobile's network with those iPhones you would have had to submit a request to ATT to have them unlocked, which up until April 2012 it would not have happened, even now to get a unlock for the iPhone you have to qualify by either having a completed 2 year agreement on the iPhone with ATT or have a receipt showing you paid full retail price for the iPhone from a ATT authorized retailer. If you bought it second hand then ATT will not unlock it at all. Heck even if you pay full retail for the Samsung S4 ATT will not unlock it for 6 to 12 months due to a exclusivity clause in the agreement.

Cell carriers regulations and ETF policies are no where near as reasonable as you think they are, they requirements for service are even stricter. At least with DirecTV if you have 5 units and you termination early you only pay one ETF not five.


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## sregener (Apr 17, 2012)

unixguru said:


> Generally I don't like government involvement either. How are these issues going to get addressed otherwise? Didn't other utilities go through a similar transition?


Issues get resolved all the time without government getting involved. I just went to the grocery store and complained to the bakery staff about the new cookies they're selling. They're the same price as the old ones were, but they're just horrible. The baker told me, "This was forced down by corporate." I said, "I know, and I'm not blaming you. But I'm the customer and I'm providing feedback that I used to buy these all the time and I don't buy them anymore." Now, maybe my voice won't make a difference, but you can bet that if enough people complain, the message will get back to corporate. In the meantime, the market works. They're selling a lot less cookies. Which is another way the message gets sent.

There is no need for the government to get involved for DirecTV to stop playing the receiver model ignorance game. Customers like me who leave (and I told them precisely what it would take to keep me - I wanted an HR24, and no other model - and was told in no uncertain terms that they couldn't promise me that) and customers who complain loudly get heard.

I can't believe that when they get a receiver in for a repair, they open it up and can't tell whether it's an HR21 or an HR23 or 24 without checking the model number sticker. I can't believe that they can just pull parts from the "Advanced HD receiver" bin and put them in any of the models they try to foist on customers as identical. And I can't believe that they can't read the model number sticker on the box before packing it up and shipping it out. That's all they had to do to keep me as a customer: put a FedEx sticker on a box with an HR24 sticker, schedule an install (which I could have easily done since the satellite installation was already in place) and they'd still have me as a customer. Would it have cost them something to ship me the box? Yes. But the lack of a well-paying customer is costing them far more.

What I really believe lies behind this problem is that they believe that if they let customers pick model numbers, older model numbers will collect dust and they'll have to write off the cost sooner. In other words, if everybody who calls for service demands the newest receiver, their stockpile of older receivers will depreciate very quickly. This is a bean counter decision, and they're gambling on the fact that they'll lose few customers over this. Believe me, if enough people leave over the receiver model issue, the bean counters will redo their math. But the reality is that we're probably the minority that care, but we're typically the higher-paying minority. By not meeting our needs, DirecTV is begging us to choose anyone else.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

unixguru said:


> :up:
> Cell companies are not perfect but they have a much more reasonable prorated early termination policies. No fracking lease. They apparently want to keep their customers. It seems they will continue to set the standard if they move to eliminate subsidies.
> 
> I doubt there is much difference in the cost of an HR34/HR44 and an iPhone 5.
> ...


I don't think regulation has anything to do with anything. It's also not fair to regulate satellite TV and not cable/iptv.

There's a huge difference between the HR34/HR44 and an iPhone 5. The HRs are serviceable and the iPhone isn't. DVRs (from all providers) can have a useful life cycle several times that of the average cell phone. I have a Galaxy S2 that's less than a year and a half old and it is obsolete compared to what's come out since then. Heck Moore's Law is probably longer that the average cell phone life cycle.
Regulation isn't the answer. Just what is in phone regulations that has anything to do how much they're charging for ETFs? The answer is absolutely nothing. 
The FCCs website even says the only way to protect yourself is to carefully read the provided agreements so you are aware of what the ETF will be.

So, your idea that more regulation will reduce the fees is just wrong...it will likely cost us more money not less.

Mike


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

I think this is one of the big differences between Dish and DirecTV's model. All of Dish's receivers and DVRs are manufactured by Echostar. As a result, there are much better economies of scale available, since all Dish receivers of a given model are identical.

This is not the case with DirecTV. There are slight differences between the HR24s made by Pace and the ones made by Samsung, for example (different power supplies for example). So, you have to look at each manufacturer and model as a unique build. This will greatly effect the unit cost of any unique component. The cost of manufacturing and populating the circuit boards, particularly in the volumes we're talking about, will be far more than sum of all the components combined.

As to the cost of commercial account units, remember that while the customer may "own" these units, they still have a service commitment, and DirecTV usually makes a lot more money from commercial accounts than they do from residential accounts, so the equipment is still being subsidized by DirecTV.

As I look at DirecTV's (and Dish Network's) financial performance they don't seem to be making huge profits. They ARE profitable, after MANY years of not making a dime, which is a good thing - unprofitable companies don't survive.

Yes, the lease model was adopted to save DirecTV money by reducing their taxes (receivers are a depreciable asset) and by giving them a supply of recycleable hardware. Does it mean that the few tenths of one percent of their customers that care what model they get have to jump through hoops to make it happen? Sure...but the number of customers that are going to leave over it is infintessmially small. The management has a responsibility to the stockholders to maximize value in any way that doesn't materially hurt the business. No matter how you slice it, this issue falls into that category.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> If I paid cash for my phone, I'd still have the same monthly bill, even though I'm not subsidizing free hardware. Wrong, bud. Pay cash for you phone, then do a pre-paid plan and you overall price is cheaper with the same service.
> Version, AT&T, T-Mobile, Boost, Cricket and a few others.
> 
> DT model sucks and we all know there is NO changing minds of certain people here who get free equipment form DIRECTV and the latest and greatest stuff. So You have to take ALL their comments with a grain of salt. At least YOPU were honest about not liking their model.
> ...


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> I don't think regulation has anything to do with anything. It's also not fair to regulate satellite TV and not cable/iptv.
> 
> There's a huge difference between the HR34/HR44 and an iPhone 5. The HRs are serviceable and the iPhone isn't. DVRs (from all providers) can have a useful life cycle several times that of the average cell phone. I have a Galaxy S2 that's less than a year and a half old and it is obsolete compared to what's come out since then. Heck Moore's Law is probably longer that the average cell phone life cycle.
> Regulation isn't the answer. Just what is in phone regulations that has anything to do how much they're charging for ETFs? The answer is absolutely nothing.
> ...





Mike Bertelson said:


> I don't think regulation has anything to do with anything. It's also not fair to regulate satellite TV and not cable/iptv.
> 
> There's a huge difference between the HR34/HR44 and an iPhone 5. The HRs are serviceable and the iPhone isn't. DVRs (from all providers) can have a useful life cycle several times that of the average cell phone. I have a Galaxy S2 that's less than a year and a half old and it is obsolete compared to what's come out since then. Heck Moore's Law is probably longer that the average cell phone life cycle.
> Regulation isn't the answer. Just what is in phone regulations that has anything to do how much they're charging for ETFs? The answer is absolutely nothing.
> ...


You just showed compliment ignorance. Whats NOT serviceable on a iPhone? Nothing obsolete about a S2 even though Samscum and Google do screw you! Know who many iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 users are out there and happy?
Man you guys crack me up!


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I don't know the exact component costs but between hardware and software development it would greatly surprise me if the cost to DIRECTV was anywhere near as low as that. At one point, several years ago I was told it cost about $700 to build an HR20, just parts and not counting software development. I'd think it's come down from that somewhat but HR44s have more tuners, bigger drives, faster chips, better engineering, etc.


 And ALL those prices have come down over the years. an iPhone 5 cost around $183 and I would bet an HR44 around $300-350 max! DIRECTV is making money on their $199 lease deals with a 2 year contact.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Diana C said:


> This is not the case with DirecTV. There are slight differences between the HR24s made by Pace and the ones made by Samsung, for example (different power supplies for example). So, you have to look at each manufacturer and model as a unique build. This will greatly effect the unit cost of any unique component. The cost of manufacturing and populating the circuit boards, particularly in the volumes we're talking about, will be far more than sum of all the components combined....
> 
> Yes, the lease model was adopted to save DirecTV money by reducing their taxes (receivers are a depreciable asset) and by giving them a supply of recycleable hardware. Does it mean that the few tenths of one percent of their customers that care what model they get have to jump through hoops to make it happen? Sure...but the number of customers that are going to leave over it is infintessmially small. The management has a responsibility to the stockholders to maximize value in any way that doesn't materially hurt the business. No matter how you slice it, this issue falls into that category.


The first part I have addressed on previous projects by buying the unique parts for the manufacturers. This enables me to get volume pricing on those parts. But D*'s volume is still really high, even when it's divided across 3 or 4 mfrs., so it may not even be necessary for them to do that. There's only one "unique" expensive part -- the main chip.

I agree with the second part, which is why I like FIOS's option of paying a one-time fee to be considered a "premiere" customer. That takes care of the people who DO care, which you have to address because they are also the most vocal. But by charging extra, it discourages the average Joe from demanding a new receiver just because they can.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

gio12 said:


> And ALL those prices have come down over the years. an iPhone 5 cost around $183 and I would bet an HR44 around $300-350 max! DIRECTV is making money on their $199 lease deals with a 2 year contact.


Somehow I don't understand how making money is an issue. DIRECTV is first recouping their costs and then, yes, probably making money.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

gio12 said:


> You just showed compliment ignorance. Whats NOT serviceable on a iPhone? Nothing obsolete about a S2 even though Samscum and Google do screw you! Know who many iPhone 3GS and iPhone 4 users are out there and happy?
> Man you guys crack me up!


Nothing is really serviceable on a cell phone except the display. It costs more to troubleshoot the phone and repair the defective part than it does to throw out the whole phone and replace it.



gio12 said:


> And ALL those prices have come down over the years. an iPhone 5 cost around $183 and I would bet an HR44 around $300-350 max! DIRECTV is making money on their $199 lease deals with a 2 year contact.


Prices have come down, and do in general for electronics, but you're quoting the subsidized price for an iPhone 5. I agree that prices for the DVRs have never come down, which is rather odd, because if the HR21 has gotten cheaper to make and/or has depreciated, why doesn't D* share that savings with their customers? To be fair, their competitors do it too. But it's still very shady.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> Somehow I don't understand how making money is an issue. DIRECTV is first recouping their costs and then, yes, probably making money.


I have no problem with them making money on these boxes and never said that. But to claim it cost them $700 a box is crazy. Or saying they are losing money at $199.
Not my point. Stuart was mention how much they use to cost and I said they cost less nowadays and DIRECTV is making money on them now.

So yes, making money and locking you into 2 years at the same time. Never said its a bad thing or wrong.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> bobcamp1, on 30 May 2013 - 4:54 PM, said:
> 
> Nothing is really serviceable on a cell phone except the display. It costs more to troubleshoot the phone and repair the defective part than it does to throw out the whole phone and replace it.
> 
> Prices have come down, and do in general for electronics, but you're quoting the subsidized price for an iPhone 5. I agree that prices for the DVRs have never come down, which is rather odd, because if the HR21 has gotten cheaper to make and/or has depreciated, why doesn't D* share that savings with their customers? To be fair, their competitors do it too. But it's still very shady.


What? Are you nuts? I have replaced glass, home buttons, batteries, etc on iPhones and others, but thanks for playing. Hmm, $45 home button repair out of warranty or $649 new phone.

Nope, the cost for APPLE to make an iphone is $189. they sell them to a large carrier in the $600 range. then you pay $199 to get locked into a 2 yr contract but you OWN the phone, unlike DIRECTV.

Please guys, dont argue a point unless you KNOW what your talking about.

EDIT: I will agree it's a bit Shady on DIRECTV and Disk's part, but they are a duopoly and can get away with it. The saving should be passed on when these are leased and they tech is no longer new.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

wingrider01 said:


> Cell companies have the same exact monetary termination clause that DirecTV has, you want to terminate your contract early for a smartphone pay a final bill that is not pro-rated and a termination fee on each and every line on the plan if you are on a family plan - if you have 5 lines in contract you pay 5 termination fees. On a smartphone the ETF is 325.00 - (10.00 * each completed billing cycle), on a QMS it is 150.00 - (4.00 * each completed billing cycle). If you cancel 1 day before the contract is over you still own a 85.00 etf on a smartphone and 54.00 on a QMS device.
> 
> Now how exactly is a cell phone ETF policy more reasonable then DirecTV?
> 
> ...


Cell companies are far from perfect.

However, if I had an iPhone 5 that I got last summer and they come out with a 5S or 6 this summer and I wanted to upgrade they WILL let me do that if I pay the ETF. Not saying it's cost effective but it IS doable and relatively easy.

I have an HR34 that I got last summer. IF I badly wanted an HR44 could I get one? Not without canceling service, paying ETF, returning everything, wait awhile and resubscribe (probably having to do it through SS to make sure I get an HR44).

It's all relative and DirecTV is worse.

We have 2 iPhone's that went out of contract with AT&T. Unlocking them was trivial (yeh, after April 2012). Still on AT&T network via AirVoice. I own the phone even though AT&T subsidized it (which is really a farce because they just financed it by charging me every month).


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

unixguru said:


> Cell companies are far from perfect.
> 
> However, if I had an iPhone 5 that I got last summer and they come out with a 5S or 6 this summer and I wanted to upgrade they WILL let me do that if I pay the ETF. Not saying it's cost effective but it IS doable and relatively easy.
> 
> ...


Yep and at least AT&T will let you upgrade after 18 months and you get to KEEP the old phone. That whole business about unlocking is a load of CRAP!

Summer of 2011 I had an iPhone 4 and traveled to Costa Rica. I asked AT&T to unlock it so i could use a local SIM. I had 6 months left on my contract and AT&T unlocked it. No questions asked as said I was an outstanding and loyal customer.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

bobcamp1 said:


> Nothing is really serviceable on a cell phone except the display. It costs more to troubleshoot the phone and repair the defective part than it does to throw out the whole phone and replace it.


A DVR is only slightly more serviceable. Power supply, disk drive, and logic board. I doubt they service anything other than a power supply or disk drive.

They don't service anything on a logic board - just like a cell phone or notebook computer or tablet.

People repairing commodity electronics are far too expensive to spend much if any time on them.

That is why a flaky logic board can be marked as good and put back into the spares pile. Problems aren't always black and white.


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## rrbhokies (May 10, 2004)

So if I pay $299 and buy an HR44 from Weaknees, I can add the HR44 along with my existing HR34 and have two genies, and I don't have to extend my contract at all. But it won't be covered under any protection plan so if it breaks, I'm out, correct? Yet, if I call Directv, they won't let me have a 2nd Genie anyways, so the only way is to go through weaknees, correct? What about installation? Do they just ship you the HR44 and you install it yourself? Directv will just let me authorize it when I call? As for warranty, I guess if I pay with my Amex card, it would be covered for a year by Amex. Am I missing anything?


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

rrbhokies said:


> So if I pay $299 and buy an HR44 from Weaknees, I can add the HR44 along with my existing HR34 and have two genies, and I don't have to extend my contract at all. But it won't be covered under any protection plan so if it breaks, I'm out, correct? Yet, if I call Directv, they won't let me have a 2nd Genie anyways, so the only way is to go through weaknees, correct? What about installation? Do they just ship you the HR44 and you install it yourself? Directv will just let me authorize it when I call? As for warranty, I guess if I pay with my Amex card, it would be covered for a year by Amex. Am I missing anything?


You can't have 2 Genies.


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## Blurayfan (Nov 16, 2005)

rrbhokies said:


> So if I pay $299 and buy an HR44 from Weaknees, I can add the HR44 along with my existing HR34 and have two genies, and I don't have to extend my contract at all. But it won't be covered under any protection plan so if it breaks, I'm out, correct? Yet, if I call Directv, they won't let me have a 2nd Genie anyways, so the only way is to go through weaknees, correct? What about installation? Do they just ship you the HR44 and you install it yourself? Directv will just let me authorize it when I call? As for warranty, I guess if I pay with my Amex card, it would be covered for a year by Amex. Am I missing anything?


DirecTV won't activate a second Genie no matter where you purchase from, yet anyway.


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## Sixto (Nov 18, 2005)

You most likely will not be able to activate that 2nd Genie. Beware.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

FWIW, I destroyed my 4 month old iPhone 5 when it was caught in the mechanism of my recliner. A T & T sold me a replacement for $650, still have a year and a half on my service contract.


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## Jacob Braun (Oct 6, 2011)

rrbhokies said:


> So if I pay $299 and buy an HR44 from Weaknees, I can add the HR44 along with my existing HR34 and have two genies, and I don't have to extend my contract at all. But it won't be covered under any protection plan so if it breaks, I'm out, correct? Yet, if I call Directv, they won't let me have a 2nd Genie anyways, so the only way is to go through weaknees, correct? What about installation? Do they just ship you the HR44 and you install it yourself? Directv will just let me authorize it when I call? As for warranty, I guess if I pay with my Amex card, it would be covered for a year by Amex. Am I missing anything?


You're missing everything here. If you pay $299 to buy an HR44 from Weaknees you would need to deactivate your HR34 before you could activate the HR44 (even if you found someone who would try to activate a 2nd Genie on your account the system wouldn't activate it).
The HR44 would start a new two year agreement. Weaknees would ship it to you and you would self install it. As for a warranty you have a full 90 day warranty on it from DirecTV. Outside of the 90 days if you do not have the Protection Plan it would be $19.95 for s/h of a replacement. If you do have the Protection Plan the HR44 would be covered with it.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Diana C said:


> I think this is one of the big differences between Dish and DirecTV's model. All of Dish's receivers and DVRs are manufactured by Echostar. As a result, there are much better economies of scale available, since all Dish receivers of a given model are identical.
> 
> This is not the case with DirecTV. There are slight differences between the HR24s made by Pace and the ones made by Samsung, for example (different power supplies for example). So, you have to look at each manufacturer and model as a unique build. This will greatly effect the unit cost of any unique component. The cost of manufacturing and populating the circuit boards, particularly in the volumes we're talking about, will be far more than sum of all the components combined.


I don't buy that. Yeah, the power supplies and various other bits are different between the different manufacturers, but that is virtually certain to make them cost *less*, not more. Do you really think that a manufacturer the size of Samsung or Pace is creating a unique power supply that they only use for a particular model of receiver? Or are they re-using an identical (or nearly identical, with a few components switched to get the amount of power they design calls for) power supply used in other products? I'll bet if you tear open a receiver made by Pace, and one of the many cable receivers and DVRs Pace makes, you'll see a ton of the same components. They chose differently from what Samsung might choose because they're choosing the components they already buy a lot of.

I still think the satellite tuner is the only non mass market bit of hardware in the entire product, whether you're talking H2x receiver, Cx1 client, HR2x DVR or HRx4 Genie. Everything else is a commodity off the shelf part. It doesn't matter if the production of the HR44 is split between three manufacturers and they aren't making them all with the same components. If Directv gave them a reference design and required them to use identical components, they'd end up costing more because the components Directv required wouldn't necessarily be the ones that manufacturer has volume pricing on due to their use in other hardware they make.

Not to mention the risk of big problems if their reference design included something like the H20-600's power supply. The fact Directv had two manufacturers of the H20 using different components turned out to be a good thing, since the H20-100 didn't suffer from the problems the -600 did.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I tend to think that most of the hardware inside is relatively low-volume, from the tuners to the decoder chips to the CPU. None of it has a place in an average PC. Think of it this way... A good graphics card can run you $500... so can a cheap PC. Why? Volume.

I will say that all the models of HR44 use the same power supply, unlike other models, and it isn't a terribly expensive one.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

The CPUs used in the receivers are not going to be specially made for Directv. You can probably find them in some outdated Android phones, or wireless routers, or smart TVs, and so on. Compared to the consumer electronics market as whole, PCs are a niche market. The PC market is outsold on a unit and dollar basis by cell phones alone, by quite a wide margin. Don't think that the PC market is the only place where Directv receivers are getting its components, or that it is the place with the most cutthroat margins.

I stand by my statement that there is unlikely to be anything unique to a Directv receiver aside from the satellite tuner. If you think otherwise, point to a part number on a component and let's see how many different products Google can turn up that uses it. If it is used in a product that gets a 'teardown', we might even be able to get an estimate of its pricing (at least at the time the teardown was done)

BTW, the reason the top graphics card costs $500+ is twofold. In order to get maximum performance they use one extremely large chip - typically nearly as big as it is possible to make a single chip. About 4-10x as large as the Intel CPU in a typical PC. The larger the chip, the more likely there are defects on it that cause it to be unusable, thus the cost shoots up the bigger the chip because a lot of the ones they produce are defective. Two, they charge what the market will bear, and as long as there is a segment of hardcore gamers, the market will continue the bear the prices they charge. Yes, they are low volume, but the high price is just as responsible for the low volume as the low volume is responsible for the price.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> The CPUs used in the receivers are not going to be specially made for Directv.


You're right this far, but I'm not sure there are that many other applications for them either.

I don't know this [http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/Satellite-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7424] is what DirecTV uses, but it does look specifically targeted to SAT receivers.


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## sregener (Apr 17, 2012)

Doesn't anyone remember the DTVPal DVR? $250 list price for a fully functional, 2-tuner DVR. And this was in 2009, ancient history in the computing world, and it was a product that was not subsidized by programming fees or contracts. Even the guide information was free. Yeah, it only had a 250GB hard drive, but prices have come down to the point where a 1TB would be cheaper now. I agree with the above claim that the satellite tuner is the only part that *has* to be unique to a DirecTV DVR. The rest can be done with standard equipment that is made in bulk. We're really struggling to come up with a $700 price tag for the DVR.

A decade ago, the cost to acquire a single new customer was around $750. It's probably higher today. But that included all the advertising and installation costs, not just the equipment. And we have to include the fact that DirecTV, by leasing the receivers rather than selling them, can claim depreciation costs over time, which greatly reduces their tax burden, and subsequently, their real cost.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Keep in mind the hardware is not the only cost involved in the design, production and distribution of any item. You cannot limit the discussion to the cost of components and manufacturing cost.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

unixguru said:


> Cell companies are far from perfect.
> 
> However, if I had an iPhone 5 that I got last summer and they come out with a 5S or 6 this summer and I wanted to upgrade they WILL let me do that if I pay the ETF. Not saying it's cost effective but it IS doable and relatively easy.
> 
> ...


Actually If you try to upgrade by paying the ETF on your current phone number, the number is canceled, paying the ETF terminates the agreement between you and the phone company and the number is released back into the number pool. Go ahead and use that method as long as you don't care to give up your cell number. The only way of keeping a cell number from a carrier is porting it to another carrier.

There are two methods with ATT if you want to upgrade in the middle of your contract

1. Pay full retail price for the new device
2. If you qualify for a upgrade at a reduced cost plus the penalty charge, which is discounted price of the phone + 250.00 penalty payment, so for a 16GB IPhone 5 it would be 149.00 + 250.00 or 399.00


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

sregener said:


> Doesn't anyone remember the DTVPal DVR? $250 list price for a fully functional, 2-tuner DVR. And this was in 2009, ancient history in the computing world, and it was a product that was not subsidized by programming fees or contracts. Even the guide information was free. Yeah, it only had a 250GB hard drive, but prices have come down to the point where a 1TB would be cheaper now. I agree with the above claim that the satellite tuner is the only part that *has* to be unique to a DirecTV DVR. The rest can be done with standard equipment that is made in bulk. We're really struggling to come up with a $700 price tag for the DVR.
> 
> A decade ago, the cost to acquire a single new customer was around $750. It's probably higher today. But that included all the advertising and installation costs, not just the equipment. And we have to include the fact that DirecTV, by leasing the receivers rather than selling them, can claim depreciation costs over time, which greatly reduces their tax burden, and subsequently, their real cost.


I remember that product. It seems to have failed in the marketplace due to poor quality and lack of support.

I think the one thing on which we can all agree is that we don't have our eyes on the numbers. What I can say that I know for sure is that the tuner chips, CPU, decoding/output chips, and other support chips are all relatively low volume pieces not found in regular PCs. That is sure to make them more expensive, and with relatively lower volumes each box carries a higher cost of engineering and maintenance.

I just looked at the price of a mid-level iPhone 5, unlocked with no carrier subsidy. It's $749 and that's for a product with much higher volumes. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why a DIRECTV DVR can't cost at least $400 in parts, plus engineering costs. I could imagine it costing even more, actually. The world of "embedded" devices is very different from the world of general purpose PCs.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

unixguru said:


> I have an HR34 that I got last summer. IF I badly wanted an HR44 could I get one? Not without canceling service, paying ETF, returning everything, wait awhile and resubscribe (probably having to do it through SS to make sure I get an HR44).
> 
> It's all relative and DirecTV is worse.


I guess I'm missing something here. If you want to replace your HR-34 with an HR-44, you can just order one from SS or WK. When it arrives install the 44 in place of the 34, call DirecTV have them remove the 34 from your account and replace with the 44. When they send the recovery kit, send the 34 back to DirecTV.

I have no idea where cancellation, ETF and resubscribe enters the situation.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> I like FIOS's option of paying a one-time fee to be considered a "premiere" customer. That takes care of the people who DO care, which you have to address because they are also the most vocal. But by charging extra, it discourages the average Joe from demanding a new receiver just because they can.


I didn't know that FiOS does this (even though I'm a FiOS Internet/phone customer). I think that this is a great idea.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> I don't buy that. Yeah, the power supplies and various other bits are different between the different manufacturers, but that is virtually certain to make them cost *less*, not more. Do you really think that a manufacturer the size of Samsung or Pace is creating a unique power supply that they only use for a particular model of receiver? Or are they re-using an identical (or nearly identical, *with a few components switched to get the amount of power they design calls for*) power supply used in other products? I'll bet if you tear open a receiver made by Pace, and one of the many cable receivers and DVRs Pace makes, you'll see a ton of the same components. They chose differently from what Samsung might choose because they're choosing the components they already buy a lot of.
> 
> I still think the satellite tuner is the only non mass market bit of hardware in the entire product, whether you're talking H2x receiver, Cx1 client, HR2x DVR or HRx4 Genie. Everything else is a commodity off the shelf part. It doesn't matter if the production of the HR44 is split between three manufacturers and they aren't making them all with the same components. If Directv gave them a reference design and required them to use identical components, they'd end up costing more because the components Directv required wouldn't necessarily be the ones that manufacturer has volume pricing on due to their use in other hardware they make.
> 
> Not to mention the risk of big problems if their reference design included something like the H20-600's power supply. The fact Directv had two manufacturers of the H20 using different components turned out to be a good thing, since the H20-100 didn't suffer from the problems the -600 did.


I respectfully disagree. The changing of a "few components" on a circuit board vastly increases its cost. In fact, the cost of having a board built on an automated assembly line is sufficiently low, and cost of refitting an existing board so high, that is often more cost effective to build an entirely new power supply board even if the change required would be a single resistor.

This is the point. Sure, the sum cost of all the electronic parts inside a DVR is probably around $100 (exclusive of smartcard, hard drive and satellite tuner chips).. But they need to be assembled in just the right way to support the software and functionality of the design. The way assembly lines work is that the big cost is in setting them up. The longer they run and the more units produced, the lower the per unit overhead of the setup. The assembly lines don't run long enough to make the per unit cost on DVRs very low.

I'd suggest the analogy of AV receivers. These units are electronically simpler than DVRs, and about equal to a basic satellite receiver. They are also manufactured in about equal numbers on a brand and model basis. These devices cost an average of around $400, with many well over $800. Why should satellite receivers be different?


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

FarNorth said:


> *Further, it is pretty clear that DTV views their relationship with SS and WK as somehow "special," that they value them more as a customer than me. The one thing, the ONLY thing that keeps me with DTV is ST and now that my team has gained in prominence, I may not even need that any more.*


What DirecTV sees SS and WK as is an extension of their distribution system. They are a retailer for DirecTV products, not a customer. Comparing the relationship between DirecTV and them versus DirecTV and you is apples and oranges.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

bananfish said:


> I realize that some of the board veterans hate threads like this because they get tired of hearing complaints about DirecTV policies that seem set in stone. But complaining, and complaining loudly, is one of the tools that consumers have to get policies changed. Perhaps not as effective a tool as walking out to DishTV or another vendor, but still an arrow in the quiver.
> 
> So I, for one, love that this thread exists. Contributing this post to this thread is one of the ways that I have to communicate what I am dissatisfied with to DirecTV.
> 
> ...


I can see that it does not instill loyalty but you are kidding yourself if you think other providers are much better at consistency or inventory management.

I have dealt with both comcast and fios in recent years (fios is ongoing now) and they treat DVRs the same way DirecTV does. So does Comcast. They also both are hit and miss on what price and what deals you get. In fact, fios is notorious for quoting a price that does not match your bill.

None of them inspire loyalty on all aspects. You just pick the best one for your needs. For me, that is DirecTV by far. For you it might be someone else.


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## FarNorth (Nov 27, 2003)

I guess I'm missing the point. Every unit that SS and WK sell goes to an existing DTV customer, right? So how does that help DTV? Let's assume that SS/WK buy their units for $280 and then sell them to me at $350 - why doesn't DTV simply 'eliminate the middle man' and sell one to me for $350 or, better yet, $280?

It would take them all of three seconds:

_We market our units at various price levels and with various incentives in place. For our purposes of inventory control, we consider many different units and models to be functionally the same and are priced accordingly. However, we understand that a very small number of our consumers demand a specific model or type of receiver and for those customers, we have established a separate pricing tier:_

_HR 24 $229_
_HR 34 $249_
_HR 44 $299_

What's wrong with that plan?


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Bill Broderick said:


> I guess I'm missing something here. If you want to replace your HR-34 with an HR-44, you can just order one from SS or WK. When it arrives install the 44 in place of the 44, call DirecTV have them remove the 34 from your account and replace with the 44. When they send the recovery kit, send the 34 back to DirecTV.
> 
> I have no idea where cancellation, ETF and resubscribe enters the situation.


You're not missing anything at all as far as I can see....It is that simple, but its become this huge cumbersome ordeal or so many would like us to think. The caveat is they want the free upgrade to come from Directv, they dont want to have to pay any money for it. They want their cake and to eat it too. If I had a 34, and _*HAD TO HAVE a 44*_, thats exactly what I would do because I realize thats the price you pay to get one currently.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

veryoldschool said:


> You're right this far, but I'm not sure there are that many other applications for them either.
> 
> I don't know this [http://www.broadcom.com/products/Satellite/Satellite-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7424] is what DirecTV uses, but it does look specifically targeted to SAT receivers.


That would be applicable to any set top box, for cable or IPTV, not just satellite. Genies might use this, Hoppers might use this, various high end cable / FIOS DVRs or Tivos might use this. They all have similar needs, and there's nothing specific for satellite in this. That would be a separate satellite tuner chip, the one thing that Directv receivers include that only Directv receivers would need. There's no reason several generations of Directv receivers wouldn't use the same tuner chip design, probably made by more than one manufacturer, to reduce risk and add some price competition. I wouldn't be surprised to find identical tuner chips in an HR21 and an HR23, even if they were made by different manufacturers, for instance.

A SoC (System on a Chip, so called because it includes most of the functionality that Intel CPUs don't include but are instead provided by other chips on the motherboard in a typical PC - though Intel is slowly moving along this path for PC CPUs) like this is a chip that's basically built out of various building blocks. Not literally, the chip is a single unit, I'm talking about doing the design that is sent to a foundry (generally TSMC, pretty much everything electronic you buy has multiple chips made in TSMC's fabs)

Broadcom will put together different models that offer different levels of performance for CPU, graphics, and other add-ons on the higher end but they're all built from the same building blocks. The parts of the SoC are only designed once, and often these parts of the design are purchased/licensed from other vendors. Then they get reused across an entire product line. In the cell phone market they refresh them yearly, in this market probably every two years.

The fact this is designed in 40nm shows that cost was a more important design target than performance, because that's an older manufacturing process. The newest process always costs the most, older processes cost less (even though they produce bigger chips, the actual silicon itself isn't that expensive, it is the amortization of the cost of all the fab equipment, which runs into the billions for each smaller semiconductor manufacturing process - for a _single_ fab!)

All the current high end cell phones are using chips manufactured in 28nm, and in about six months you'll start seeing some using chips manufactured in 20nm - about four years ahead of the 40nm process this uses. The SoC used in an iPhone 5 or Galaxy S4 cost much more to make than this Broadcom SoC, because Apple and Samsung are paying for the heavy initial depreciation of the fabs making them. Despite this, estimates are that Samsung pays only $20 for the SoC in the US version of the GS4, $28 for the SoC used in the international version (which they make themselves) Broadcom likely makes this SoC for less than $10/ea.

Obviously there are multiple manufacturers of such SoCs available, but they're all in competition with each other, so the manufacturers of Directv's receivers would be able to engage them in a competitive bidding process. For vendors like Pace who make many set top boxes, not just for Directv, they may end up using the same thing in a Genie as they would in higher end DVRs they're making for cable companies, and use a less powerful one in a H25 or client, along with standard cable receivers.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

Diana C said:


> I respectfully disagree. The changing of a "few components" on a circuit board vastly increases its cost. In fact, the cost of having a board built on an automated assembly line is sufficiently low, and cost of refitting an existing board so high, that is often more cost effective to build an entirely new power supply board even if the change required would be a single resistor.
> 
> This is the point. Sure, the sum cost of all the electronic parts inside a DVR is probably around $100 (exclusive of smartcard, hard drive and satellite tuner chips).. But they need to be assembled in just the right way to support the software and functionality of the design. The way assembly lines work is that the big cost is in setting them up. The longer they run and the more units produced, the lower the per unit overhead of the setup. The assembly lines don't run long enough to make the per unit cost on DVRs very low.
> 
> I'd suggest the analogy of AV receivers. These units are electronically simpler than DVRs, and about equal to a basic satellite receiver. They are also manufactured in about equal numbers on a brand and model basis. These devices cost an average of around $400, with many well over $800. Why should satellite receivers be different?


You're assuming they're being built on an automated assembly line. If they're assembled in China, that may not be the case. Why do you think most cell phones are hand assembled in China? With the tiny tolerances and millions of units involved, you'd think it is a perfect job for robots. Humans are just cheaper.

If it cost that much to change the power supply a little bit they just wouldn't. They'd use the same one they used in another product, which might produce a bit more power than they need and thereby lose a little efficiency, or if they make a poor engineering choice might produce a bit less power than they need (hello, H20-600!)

I know a lot about the chip side of the picture, less about the board level manufacturing. So if you know this end of the business I'll defer to your expertise. I certainly don't know the cost of retooling a production line at various levels of automation, only that doing it when it is using mostly human labor isn't very expensive at all.

I also know little about AV receivers, or why they might cost what they do. I do know that audiophiles and videophiles are the often the suckers PT Barnum was talking about. I've got a friend with an EE who believes some amazing things about the money he's spent on his audio system that defies the laws of physics he was taught in school. There's a reason why there are so many tiny boutique firms making this stuff - because when the buyers willingly suspend their knowledge of the lack of physics, economic laws that dictate that sales price should bear at least some relationship to manufacturing cost are likewise suspended


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

FarNorth said:


> I guess I'm missing the point. Every unit that SS and WK sell goes to an existing DTV customer, right? So how does that help DTV? Let's assume that SS/WK buy their units for $280 and then sell them to me at $350 - why doesn't DTV simply 'eliminate the middle man' and sell one to me for $350 or, better yet, $280?...


It helps them (and they are willing to give up some profit) because Solid Signal and Weaknees are willing to do specific model inventory, ordering and shipping for them (and in the case of Weaknees, provide support for the units they upgrade with larger drives). These two retailers ARE DirecTV's way of catering to users that absolutely, positively, have to own a specific model of receiver or DVR. DirecTV has made the determination that it is cheaper for them to have these 3rd parties provide this service than it is to implement it themselves.

Simply put, they have outsourced the "specific model" delivery process.


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## lugnutathome (Apr 13, 2009)

Since Weaknees does open the units and upgrade the hard drives and they become the support institution for these. Are they still leased? Technically ownwed by WK and we lease from them? Or is it an owned receiver once you have bought it?

Don "always wanted to ask that" Bolton



Diana C said:


> It helps them (and they are willing to give up some profit) because Solid Signal and Weaknees are willing to do specific model inventory, ordering and shipping for them (and in the case of Weaknees, provide support for the units they upgrade with larger drives). These two retailers ARE DirecTV's way of catering to users that absolutely, positively, have to own a specific model of receiver or DVR. DirecTV has made the determination that it is cheaper for them to have these 3rd parties provide this service than it is to implement it themselves.
> 
> Simply put, they have outsourced the "specific model" delivery process.


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## Diana C (Mar 30, 2007)

slice1900 said:


> You're assuming they're being built on an automated assembly line. If they're assembled in China, that may not be the case. Why do you think most cell phones are hand assembled in China? With the tiny tolerances and millions of units involved, you'd think it is a perfect job for robots. Humans are just cheaper.
> 
> If it cost that much to change the power supply a little bit they just wouldn't. They'd use the same one they used in another product, which might produce a bit more power than they need and thereby lose a little efficiency, or if they make a poor engineering choice might produce a bit less power than they need (hello, H20-600!)
> 
> ...


All valid points. As Stuart has mentioned, we can guess and speculate all we want, but the truth is none of us really know all the cost factors involved. As has been suggested, there are additional costs beyond the hardware itself - like design, software development and maintenance, distribution, etc.



lugnutathome said:


> Since Weaknees does open the units and upgrade the hard drives and they become the support institution for these. Are they still leased? Technically ownwed by WK and we lease from them? Or is it an owned receiver once you have bought it?
> 
> Don "always wanted to ask that" Bolton


AFAIK, they are still leased, and must be returned to DirecTV if you cancel your subscription. I'm not sure what DirecTV does with the 2 or 3 TB units.

From the Weaknees web page:

"Please note that DirecTV generally considers all new equipment activated after March, 2006 to be leased equipment. DirecTV will typically only allow one HR34 to be active per account."

And this:

* "NOTES AND TERMS FOR ALL DIRECTV DVR PURCHASES:*

WeaKnees will not accept returns on any DIRECTV DVRs that have been activated with DIRECTV. No exceptions. HR20/HR21/HR22/HR24 DIRECTV DVRs cannot be returned or exchanged once activated.
All warranty/returns/service for upgraded units (which is any unit that has more recording capacity than it had when it left the manufacturing facility) must be through Weaknees.com. Failure to contact Weaknees.com for service will result in a loss of all recording capacity that Weaknees.com added to the standard 30-hour unit. Warranty/service for unmodified units must be done through the manufacturer."


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## bananfish (Aug 13, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> I can see that it does not instill loyalty but you are kidding yourself if you think other providers are much better at consistency or inventory management.
> 
> I have dealt with both comcast and fios in recent years (fios is ongoing now) and they treat DVRs the same way DirecTV does. So does Comcast. They also both are hit and miss on what price and what deals you get. In fact, fios is notorious for quoting a price that does not match your bill.
> 
> None of them inspire loyalty on all aspects. You just pick the best one for your needs. For me, that is DirecTV by far. For you it might be someone else..


Actually, for me, it's DirecTV too, mostly because I'm a Season Ticket guy, but also because I have generally been satisfied with their service and offerings. I have had a grand total of maybe 35 minutes in my 12 years with them where the service has been unavailable due to rain fade or otherwise. I have Comcast as my ISP, and consequently could get TV service through them at a significantly cheaper rate because of bundling, but I continue with DirecTV.

Whether competitors are just as bad is irrelevant. Just because all the players in an industry do things one way does not mean it is the best way to do business, and certainly does not mean I need to be satisfied with that way of doing business. Consumer-unfriendly business practices are replete in industries where there is money to be made through obfuscation and three card monte type dealing - mortgages, automobiles, mattresses, airline tickets, cell phones, etc. Unfortunately, this is one of them.

DirecTV has an opportunity to engender my loyalty by allowing me to purchase equipment that they carry that I know would better satisfy me than the alternative, and I am willing to pay a reasonable premium for that equipment. DirecTV will not allow me to do so. I can be sure to get that equipment only by going to a third party, paying an enormous premium, and risking that DirecTV will replace that equipment with inferior equipment if something goes wrong with the equipment that I "lease" from them. I am not going to be satisfied with that state of affairs no matter how many people on this forum tell me I should be or that I am kidding myself.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

I see your point but it's more accurate to say that the third party will not honor the discounted rate offered by DIRECTV CSRs than it is to say that there is a huge premium to be paid.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I see your point but it's more accurate to say that the third party will not honor the discounted rate offered by DIRECTV CSRs than it is to say that there is a huge premium to be paid.


That's really where this issue stems from. If DirecTV weren't giving away free or discounted equipment, there wouldn't be a problem. People who wanted specific equipment could get it from retailers and people who didn't really care could get it directly from DirecTV. It wouldn't matter where you got it, the price would be consistent.

That doesn't solve the warranty replacement issue. But that could be solved by allowing people to get thier warranty replacements via the 3rd party retailers and issuing an account credit.

Personally, I like the fact that, as a good customer, DirecTV is willing to give me discounted equipment, and accept the fact that I might not get exactly what I want. When I want specific equipment, I'm willing to work within thier system in order to optimize my chances for getting what I want (such as waiting for the HR-44 to become widely available in my area before ordering).


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

slice1900 said:


> That would be applicable to any set top box, for cable or IPTV, not just satellite.


Well at least I've moved you up from what's used in a $60 home router.

Like everyone else here, I don't know the real numbers/costs.

I have read a post saying the BOM for the HR2x was $200. I don't know a way to verify it, so :shrug:
If that is/was close a Genie's might be close to $400.


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## Greg4050 (Jun 10, 2010)

CCarncross said:


> You're not missing anything at all as far as I can see....It is that simple, but its become this huge cumbersome ordeal or so many would like us to think. The caveat is they want the free upgrade to come from Directv, they dont want to have to pay any money for it. They want their cake and to eat it too. If I had a 34, and _*HAD TO HAVE a 44*_, thats exactly what I would do because I realize thats the price you pay to get one currently.


No its not even about wanting the discount. It's about being locked in for another two years because you decided to go out on your own and "buy" a new receiver. If I'm "paying" retail it should do nothing to the commitment I've already honored.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Greg4050 said:


> No its not even about wanting the discount. It's about being locked in for another two years because you decided to go out on your own and "buy" a new receiver. If I'm "paying" retail it should do nothing to the commitment I've already honored.


 :scratch:

You're "paying retail" for a leased receiver, so every time you activate a leased receiver, the commitment restarts.
The only way not to is to buy a receiver "outright", since owned receivers don't restart a commitment.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

Greg4050 said:


> No its not even about wanting the discount. It's about being locked in for another two years because you decided to go out on your own and "buy" a new receiver. If I'm "paying" retail it should do nothing to the commitment I've already honored.


but that is the problem, you are not buying it. you are leasing it from a 3rd party


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

Greg4050 said:


> No its not even about wanting the discount. It's about being locked in for another two years because you decided to go out on your own and "buy" a new receiver. If I'm "paying" retail it should do nothing to the commitment I've already honored.


It clearly states on the WeaKnees website "Please note that DirecTV generally considers all new equipment activated after March 2006 to be leased equipment". On the Solid Signal website it clearly states in green print "DirecTV requires a 24 month (lease) commitment on all activated receivers click here for details regarding the DIRECTV LEASE AGREEMENT".


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Diana C said:


> It helps them (and they are willing to give up some profit) because Solid Signal and Weaknees are willing to do specific model inventory, ordering and shipping for them (and in the case of Weaknees, provide support for the units they upgrade with larger drives). These two retailers ARE DirecTV's way of catering to users that absolutely, positively, have to own a specific model of receiver or DVR. DirecTV has made the determination that it is cheaper for them to have these 3rd parties provide this service than it is to implement it themselves.
> 
> Simply put, they have outsourced the "specific model" delivery process.





CCarncross said:


> You're not missing anything at all as far as I can see....It is that simple, but its become this huge cumbersome ordeal or so many would like us to think. The caveat is they want the free upgrade to come from Directv, they dont want to have to pay any money for it. They want their cake and to eat it too. If I had a 34, and _*HAD TO HAVE a 44*_, thats exactly what I would do because I realize thats the price you pay to get one currently.


But... If I pay SS or Weaknees their 'full' lease price for a 44 because I want the speed what is to stop DirecTV from replacing it with a 34 if it fails down the road or even the next day? If DirecTV replaces a 3 month old HR44 with an HR34 am I just supposed to pay Weaknees and/or SS again?

For the good chunk of the people I suspect DirecTV's goofy policy is ok. For anyone that wants to pay their way around poor engineering decisions made years ago it is a horrible policy.


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## Jacob Braun (Oct 6, 2011)

Mike Greer said:


> But... If I pay SS or Weaknees their 'full' lease price for a 44 because I want the speed what is to stop DirecTV from replacing it with a 34 if it fails down the road or even the next day? If DirecTV replaces a 3 month old HR44 with an HR34 am I just supposed to pay Weaknees and/or SS again?
> 
> For the good chunk of the people I suspect DirecTV's goofy policy is ok. For anyone that wants to pay their way around poor engineering decisions made years ago it is a horrible policy.


DirecTV is to stop DirecTV from replacing a 44 with a 34. An HR44 will always be replaced with a HR44, an H(R)24 will be replaced with a 24, a H25 always replaced with an H25 due to their specific hardware accessories (external power supply, different RF remote, etc).


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

JBv said:


> DirecTV is to stop DirecTV from replacing a 44 with a 34. An HR44 will always be replaced with a HR44, an H(R)24 will be replaced with a 24, a H25 always replaced with an H25 due to their specific hardware accessories (external power supply, different RF remote, etc).


Is that official policy now? If so - it's a good thing. Trouble is how do we know? I can call 20 times and get 11 different answers!


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## Jacob Braun (Oct 6, 2011)

Mike Greer said:


> Is that official policy now? If so - it's a good thing. Trouble is how do we know? I can call 20 times and get 11 different answers!


For several (six or so) months.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> I can call 20 times and get 11 different answers!


Don't you mean you can call 11 times and get 20 different answers? :hair:


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

JBv said:


> DirecTV is to stop DirecTV from replacing a 44 with a 34. An HR44 will always be replaced with a HR44, an H(R)24 will be replaced with a 24, a H25 always replaced with an H25 due to their specific hardware accessories (external power supply, different RF remote, etc).


How is a 24 different from a 21 as far as installation or replacement? They're interchangeable.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I just looked at the price of a mid-level iPhone 5, unlocked with no carrier subsidy. It's $749 and that's for a product with much higher volumes. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why a DIRECTV DVR can't cost at least $400 in parts, plus engineering costs. I could imagine it costing even more, actually. The world of "embedded" devices is very different from the world of general purpose PCs.


Here is a concrete example. The Channel Master CM-7400 HD DVR (no longer available) sold for ~$400. It is the only product I can think of that is very similar and was entirely retail with no association to delivery service. Satellite tuners cost a bit more than OTA tuners. If a similar product was still available it would have a disk size comparable to current DirecTV DVRs and still cost about the same.

So a retail product at $400 is going to cost less than $200 to build (probably far less). And that's at the relatively low volume those things had (far less volume than a DirecTV DVR).

No way an HR44 costs more than $200 to build.

Unlocked iPhones are super premium price. Little benefit of volume - any benefit goes to Apple in profits. No carrier pays anywhere close to that due to volume purchases. Just google _iPhone 5 build cost_ and right away you will see reports of $167 to $238 to build depending on model. Take a mid-level at guess of $200 so $749 is 275% markup. That's the bill for extreme miniaturization and huge brand tax. Neither of which applies to DirecTV products.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

unixguru said:


> No way an HR44 costs more than $200 to build.


Those would need to be 1980 or 1990 dollars then.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

JBv said:


> For several (six or so) months.


Is that documented somewhere so I can know that they won't swap a 44 for 34 if/when they attempt to?


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> Don't you mean you can call 11 times and get 20 different answers? :hair:


Ha! Once again I stand corrected!


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

joed32 said:


> How is a 24 different from a 21 as far as installation or replacement? They're interchangeable.


Note that those models were not mentioned in the specifics.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

veryoldschool said:


> I have read a post saying the BOM for the HR2x was $200. I don't know a way to verify it, so :shrug:
> If that is/was close a Genie's might be close to $400.





unixguru said:


> No way an HR44 costs more than $200 to build.





veryoldschool said:


> Those would need to be 1980 or 1990 dollars then.


And the difference between an HR2x and an HR44 from a HARDWARE perspective? 3 more tuners. Bigger disk. A little more memory. A faster processor.

Tuners ... a few bucks. Bigger disk ... a few bucks. More memory ... a few bucks. Faster processor ... few bucks. No more than $50 total.

HR24 has an INTERNAL power supply. The HR44 has an external brick. Internal power supplies are more expensive and require UL listing, etc. Power is cheaper in HR44.

HR24 is 2+ years old. That BOM price is probably from when it was new - price of components have DROPPED. Disk is falling to junk level instead of sweet spot. Memory is getting cheaper. Processor is cheaper.

Newer processor in HR44 is faster yes but the die probably shrunk so costs didn't go up much. Look at any commodity processor - new processors come out at the same price as prior model.

I stick to my view that HR44 doesn't cost more than the HR24 did when it was new. HR24 costs less now.

"Retail price don't mean #it" Profit of new things is high, profit of old things is low. Cost... not much difference.

Final proof... HR24 was free to new customers when it came out. So is Genie now and could be an HR44.


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## studechip (Apr 16, 2012)

Stuart Sweet said:


> I remember that product. It seems to have failed in the marketplace due to poor quality and lack of support.
> 
> I think the one thing on which we can all agree is that we don't have our eyes on the numbers. What I can say that I know for sure is that the tuner chips, CPU, decoding/output chips, and other support chips are all relatively low volume pieces not found in regular PCs. That is sure to make them more expensive, and with relatively lower volumes each box carries a higher cost of engineering and maintenance.
> 
> I just looked at the price of a mid-level iPhone 5, unlocked with no carrier subsidy. It's $749 and that's for a product with much higher volumes. I guess I'm having trouble understanding why a DIRECTV DVR can't cost at least $400 in parts, plus engineering costs. I could imagine it costing even more, actually. The world of "embedded" devices is very different from the world of general purpose PCs.


http://www.cultofmac.com/190822/the-iphone-5-only-costs-apple-168-for-the-parts/


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

gio12 said:


> gio12, on 30 May 2013 - 4:24 PM, said:
> And ALL those prices have come down over the years. an iPhone 5 cost around $183 and I would bet an HR44 around $300-350 max! DIRECTV is making money on their $199 lease deals with a 2 year contact.


Actually if you read the articles the cost of the iPhone 5 parts are much less than Apples cost (see the last paragraph of this Link).

Once you add in the cost of R&D, assembly, packaging/shipping, marketing, etc. the cost to Apple is likely twice that number.

If we assume your cost for an HR34/44 of $300 and extrapolate that out one could argue the per unit cost could be in excess of $500.

IIUC my Econ classes the cost for any item (not just electronics)the per unit cost of a widget is always much more than the simply summing the cost of its parts.

Mike


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

joed32 said:


> How is a 24 different from a 21 as far as installation or replacement? They're interchangeable.


HR21 would require an external DECA in a Whole Home environment.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

unixguru said:


> Here is a concrete example. The Channel Master CM-7400 HD DVR (no longer available) sold for ~$400. It is the only product I can think of that is very similar and was entirely retail with no association to delivery service. Satellite tuners cost a bit more than OTA tuners. If a similar product was still available it would have a disk size comparable to current DirecTV DVRs and still cost about the same.
> 
> So a retail product at $400 is going to cost less than $200 to build (probably far less). And that's at the relatively low volume those things had (far less volume than a DirecTV DVR).
> 
> ...


Unlocked iPhones are not selling at a premium price, you can go to any Apple retail outlet and purchase them for the exact same price as a contract free iPhone, there is no surcharge on the unlocked device. With a GSM based iPhone 5 that will work on any GSM network you have to specifically request the unlocked version, with the advent of the Verizon CDMA iPhone 5 they are already unlocked on the CDMA side so you do not need to be specific on requesting. It seems you are mixing subsidized with unsubsidized pricing. Apple, like DirecTV is not incorporated as a not for profit organization just like ford, chevy, Mercedes Benz - or do you think it really costs Ford 45,000 to make a Mustang GT with the 600HP motor?


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

This whole conversation cracks me up, who really cares how much it costs to design, build, market, support (practically forever) and deliver an HR44? If you want one then get one, pay the price and enjoy it. Don't we make decisions every day that take cost vs. need/want into consideration? I do. Would you like it if the company you worked for decided that people that have nothing to do with your expertise got to decide how much money you could make? Personally I want to see DIRECTV make money, if they don't I will have to look other places for service. If I get to the point where the service is no longer worth the price I pay then I will move on.

If you keep your iPhone for 3 years and it stops working will Apple send you another one for the cost of shipping? What about after 5 or 7 years.... Just sayin.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

wingrider01 said:


> Unlocked iPhones are not selling at a premium price, you can go to any Apple retail outlet and purchase them for the exact same price as a contract free iPhone, there is no surcharge on the unlocked device. With a GSM based iPhone 5 that will work on any GSM network you have to specifically request the unlocked version, with the advent of the Verizon CDMA iPhone 5 they are already unlocked on the CDMA side so you do not need to be specific on requesting. It seems you are mixing subsidized with unsubsidized pricing. Apple, like DirecTV is not incorporated as a not for profit organization just like ford, chevy, Mercedes Benz - or do you think it really costs Ford 45,000 to make a Mustang GT with the 600HP motor?


Yes, unlocked was the wrong word to use. Unsubsidized (which also includes unlocked) - "full retail". My point was more about "Apple" being a premium in anything. They have larger than normal profit margins ("brand tax"). That's why they are so rich - huge margins and very popular products.

Bottom line is that full retail for an iPhone is not comparable to full retail for anything from DirecTV. Everybody is out for maximum profit but DirecTV cannot get anywhere close to what Apple does.

Do you think the "build cost" of a Mercedes is substantially more than a Ford or Chevy for a similar vehicle? Commensurate with the difference in retail price? Not a chance.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

unixguru said:


> Do you think the "build cost" of a Mercedes is substantially more than a Ford or Chevy for a similar vehicle? Commensurate with the difference in retail price? Not a chance.


Yes, absolutely, for many values of substantially more, but I don't see either American company making a similar vehicle to high end Mercedes'.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

Scott Kocourek said:


> This whole conversation cracks me up, who really cares how much it costs to design, build, market, support (practically forever) and deliver an HR44? If you want one then get one, pay the price and enjoy it. Don't we make decisions every day that take cost vs. need/want into consideration? I do. Would you like it if the company you worked for decided that people that have nothing to do with your expertise got to decide how much money you could make? Personally I want to see DIRECTV make money, if they don't I will have to look other places for service. If I get to the point where the service is no longer worth the price I pay then I will move on.
> 
> If you keep your iPhone for 3 years and it stops working will Apple send you another one for the cost of shipping? What about after 5 or 7 years.... Just sayin.


They can afford to send you a replacement because you are paying every month to "lease" a product that was completely paid for, with profit, long ago. Sure there is no specific line item on the bill but it is buried in the charges on there.

When a model is first released I'm betting they make a profit on day 1 because of the high purchase-to-lease price. Then they collect every month making far more.

If you wait awhile until the price drops - to free if a new customer - then they need a couple of years (contract term) to "profit" from the device. Then they collect every month making more.

A typical consumer that never pays anything for a device keeps it for far more than the contract term. Yeh, 5 or 7 years, that's a hell of a lot of "profit" that easily covers the few junky refurbs they have to send out.

What is the trend in build cost for each new generation? It sure isn't going up. They are driving down the build cost. Perfect example - the HR44 has an external power supply - cheaper! Won't be long before the HR24 is replaced with an external power model.

What is the _functional_ improvement from generation to generation? Not much. I had an HR20 and an HR24. Sure, the 24 was faster - but not 2X. More space. Lost OTA. But space and speed don't cost anything from one generation to the next. I shudder to think how much that HR20 cost me keeping it until it became "uncollectable".

The essence of this thread is the lack of transparency and the stupid policies leading to unnecessary games to get a reasonable outcome.

The same complaints about the cell phone business is starting to have an impact - possibly leading to the end of subsidizing.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> Yes, absolutely, for many values of substantially more, but I don't see either American company making a similar vehicle to high end Mercedes'.


So the profit margin is similar?

The more "premium" (perceived) the higher the margin.

Even within Apple.

iPhone 5 16GB $207 build, $649 retail, margin 214%
iPhone 5 32GB $217 build, $749 retail, margin 245%
iPhone 5 65GB $238 build, $849 retail, margin 256%

Apple ~ Mercedes. DirecTV ~ Chevy.

DirecTV is far less consistent. When something is new some pay the normal profit margin. Others don't generate a margin. Others actually cost DirecTV money. Up front. The number of people in each slot goes from few to most. The few really get screwed because they pay twice - up front and monthly over the contract term.

Imagine Fords only using Ford gas. (Of course gas would be >$100 a gallon.) Some people would get a new one free. Others would pay ten's of thousands.

It's just a scam to relieve the consumer of money. Whatever the market will bear.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Profit margins will not be the same for premium products in general; they'd be higher, almost by definition. 

And by your definition, that'd be a scam. We just won't be in agreement over pricing and marketing in any sphere.


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## unixguru (Jul 9, 2007)

Laxguy said:


> Profit margins will not be the same for premium products in general; they'd be higher, almost by definition.
> 
> And by your definition, that'd be a scam. We just won't be in agreement over pricing and marketing in any sphere.


Not at all. We have 32GB iPhone 4 which was the most expensive at the time.

After our contract was up we OWNED them. We decided to decline AT&T's scam that wants to continue to collect payments for the subsidy that already expired. We switched to AirVoice prepaid. If staying on the bleeding edge would have been more important to us we would have upgraded to iPhone 5 and continued. Staying on a plan and not upgrading is a ripoff.

In the cell businesses, consumers want the services to continue without the ripoff when they don't want to pay - again - for another phone with little improvement. They WILL go to an unsubsidized model. That may consist of a loan for a new device that consumer makes monthly payments on until the loan is paid off.

DirecTV deserves reasonable profits. Fixing the receiver lease scam doesn't preclude having the same profits.

When given the choice between transparent/fair and obfuscated/unfair the consumer will always choose the former. Buying an auto used to be obfuscated/unfair. I wouldn't know where to look for that kind of dealer anymore. Did auto dealers go out of business? Become less profitable? Nope.


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

What's wrong with this? http://investor.directv.com/financials-keyRatios.cfm

It doesn't sound like they are making excessive profits to me.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

unixguru said:


> When given the choice between transparent/fair and obfuscated/unfair the consumer will always choose the former. Buying an auto used to be obfuscated/unfair. I wouldn't know where to look for that kind of dealer anymore. Did auto dealers go out of business? Become less profitable? Nope.


I think you give the consumer too much credit. They'll chose what they think is the best deal for them, even if it is obfuscated and unfair. It just needs to seem like a better deal (which is the reason for the obfuscation, obviously)

Auto dealers were forced to change by the Internet. It let everyone have information on the dealer cost, incentives, etc. on new cars so you knew the margin they were working with and could no longer claim you were killing them on a deal they were making $5000 on. It is still obfuscated and unfair when it comes to trading in your old car. A lot of people choose that option even though 99 times out of a 100 you make much more selling it on your own.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Mike Bertelson said:


> Actually if you read the articles the cost of the iPhone 5 parts are much less than Apples cost (see the last paragraph of this Link).
> 
> Once you add in the cost of R&D, assembly, packaging/shipping, marketing, etc. the cost to Apple is likely twice that number.
> 
> ...


Whoops, it dropped a few bucks from another article I read :nono2: . Add all RD divided between how many millions of phones and it will add maybe $20 per phone. Again, the HR44 cost less than $500 per unit after EVERYTHING. All the R&D was probably recouped on the HR34 anyways or most of it and its why companies do this incremental upgrades with devices.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

Scott Kocourek said:


> This whole conversation cracks me up, who really cares how much it costs to design, build, market, support (practically forever) and deliver an HR44? If you want one then get one, pay the price and enjoy it. Don't we make decisions every day that take cost vs. need/want into consideration? I do. Would you like it if the company you worked for decided that people that have nothing to do with your expertise got to decide how much money you could make? Personally I want to see DIRECTV make money, if they don't I will have to look other places for service. If I get to the point where the service is no longer worth the price I pay then I will move on.
> 
> If you keep your iPhone for 3 years and it stops working will Apple send you another one for the cost of shipping? What about after 5 or 7 years.... Just sayin.


Excuse me? A HRxx is LEASED where an phone you PURCHASE it! Not the same and you know that, just saying... :nono2: :bang


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

unixguru said:


> Yes, unlocked was the wrong word to use. Unsubsidized (which also includes unlocked) - "full retail". My point was more about "Apple" being a premium in anything. They have larger than normal profit margins ("brand tax"). That's why they are so rich - huge margins and very popular products.
> 
> Bottom line is that full retail for an iPhone is not comparable to full retail for anything from DirecTV. Everybody is out for maximum profit but DirecTV cannot get anywhere close to what Apple does.
> 
> Do you think the "build cost" of a Mercedes is substantially more than a Ford or Chevy for a similar vehicle? Commensurate with the difference in retail price? Not a chance.


Actually no, unlocked and unsubsidized (aka no commitment) are two completely different skews where apple is concerned, a no-commitment iPhone is still locked to ATT's network, to get it unlocked you need to submit the paperwork to ATT to unlocked it from their network, a unlocked no-commitment phone is the same thing, but it is already factory unlocked, they had two completely different skew and part numbers.

I suspect that the build cost of a Mercedes is actually higher then the build cost of ford or a Chevy, just like I an pretty sure the build cost of iPhone is a lot less then that of a DirecTV DVR simplify because of the location they are assembled at, the locations that manufacturer the majority of the components and the general pay scale that the work forces in china are given. There is information that a 16GB iPhone 4S is 188.00 for parts and 8.00 for manufacturing, for the 5 the parts are 199.00 and the same 8.00 for the manufacturing cost, retail cost of the phone is 699.00


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Laxguy said:


> Yes, absolutely, for many values of substantially more, but I don't see either American company making a similar vehicle to high end Mercedes'.


I'll match my CTS-V up against a comparable Mercedes any day


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Excuse me? A HRxx is LEASED where an phone you PURCHASE it! Not the same and you know that, just saying... :nono2: :bang


And dtv will replace a broken unit for shipping generally because its leased. They don't make you pay for a new one. If you want a true upgrade, like HR24 to genie they might, just as a cell company does. They don't even swap phones if you break yours unless you have insurance. He had a valid point abut neither company giving you the latest for free just cause someone wants it.


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

wingrider01 said:


> I suspect that the build cost of a Mercedes is actually higher then the build cost of ford or a Chevy, just like I an pretty sure the build cost of iPhone is a lot less then that of a DirecTV DVR simplify because of the location they are assembled at, the locations that manufacturer the majority of the components and the general pay scale that the work forces in china are given. There is information that a 16GB iPhone 4S is 188.00 for parts and 8.00 for manufacturing, for the 5 the parts are 199.00 and the same 8.00 for the manufacturing cost, retail cost of the phone is 699.00


Why? It sounds like you're assuming no Directv receivers are made in China. Do you know that for a fact? Do you realize it isn't just iPhones - the majority of cell phones are assembled in China. Even companies that own their own manufacturing facilities like Nokia and Samsung have been hugely expanding their contract manufacturing in China the last few years. Well beyond what is needed to serve the Chinese market. Even some of their flagship products are made there. Why? Because the wages are much higher in Finland and South Korea. It isn't just phones, of course: computers for Dell & HP, TVs for many major brands, Xbox 360 & Wii, even high end networking gear from Cisco are all made by Foxconn in China.

The list of companies using other contract manufacturers in China would be so long it would be easier to make a list of CE products that are _not_ made in China. Maybe none of Directv's OEMs makes their stuff there, but I doubt they're being made in a country that pays what we in the US would consider a decent wage. It isn't as though an HR44 has $100+ of manufacturing cost built into it. No way.

And why do you think the components are made somewhere else? What is special about the components Directv is using that they can't possibly be coming from the places iPhone components come from? The CPU in an iPhone comes from Austin, Texas (Samsung plant) the cellular radio is Broadcom, so made by TSMC (Taiwan) The flash & RAM, probably Korea or Japan. The SoC and satellite tuner in a Directv DVR are probably also made by TSMC, the hard drive would be made in Thailand, Indonesia or Singapore, the flash and RAM, same places as Apple's.

Both of them are mostly of Asian origin. Hardly surprising, as the world's electronics supply chain is based there. It would be almost impossible for Directv or anyone else to build a CE product like a DVR, or to build a cell phone, without using any parts from Asia.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

This might sound unamerican but I rather have parts and products made in China,Japan etc than in the U.S, 
Their quality and in some products reliability seems better.


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## MysteryMan (May 17, 2010)

acostapimps said:


> This might sound unamerican but I rather have parts and products made in China,Japan etc than in the U.S,
> Their quality and in some products reliability seems better.


The craftsmanship of other countries isn't superior to American craftsmanship. Product quality is dictated by the manufacturer's design specifications. Where those products are built is dictated by labor costs. Example: I use Polk Audio speakers with my Home Theater systems. They are designed and engineered in the USA and assembled in China. The Japanese do the same. My Sony equipment is designed and engineered in Japan and assembled in Malaysia.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

gio12 said:


> Excuse me? A HRxx is LEASED where an phone you PURCHASE it! Not the same and you know that, just saying... :nono2: :bang


You're correct. It's not the same. If your HR2x dies DIRECTV will replace it for, usually for no more than shipping.

If your cell phone dies and you're not eligible for an upgrade it'll cost you hundreds to replace it.

That's what a lease gets you.

Mike


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

This might sound unamerican but I rather have parts and products made in China,Japan etc than in the U.S, 
Their quality and in some products reliability seems better.


wow have taken a look at GMC or Ford?


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk mobile app


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## Greg4050 (Jun 10, 2010)

veryoldschool said:


> :scratch:
> 
> You're "paying retail" for a leased receiver, so every time you activate a leased receiver, the commitment restarts.
> The only way not to is to buy a receiver "outright", since owned receivers don't restart a commitment.


This thread is really meandering. I dont think the cost of the unit was really what the initial poster had in mind.

How does one go about purchasing a unit these days?


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Greg4050 said:


> How does one go about purchasing a unit these days?


Most of the time they're used off of Ebay, Craigslist, or the buy & sell forum here.

There was some "chatter", on another site, about being able to buy directly from DirecTV, but I don't know how or if the poster did.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

sregener said:


> Doesn't anyone remember the DTVPal DVR? $250 list price for a fully functional, 2-tuner DVR. And this was in 2009, ancient history in the computing world, and it was a product that was not subsidized by programming fees or contracts. Even the guide information was free. Yeah, it only had a 250GB hard drive, but prices have come down to the point where a 1TB would be cheaper now. I agree with the above claim that the satellite tuner is the only part that *has* to be unique to a DirecTV DVR. The rest can be done with standard equipment that is made in bulk. We're really struggling to come up with a $700 price tag for the DVR.
> 
> A decade ago, the cost to acquire a single new customer was around $750. It's probably higher today. But that included all the advertising and installation costs, not just the equipment. And we have to include the fact that DirecTV, by leasing the receivers rather than selling them, can claim depreciation costs over time, which greatly reduces their tax burden, and subsequently, their real cost.


The Tivo Premiere 4, two tuners, has an MSRP at $249.

The Tivo Premiere 4XL, four tuners, has an MSRP at $399.

Add $100 for installation, which Tivo doesn't have to worry about, and it's still nowhere near $700. That's because for various reasons, as you said, D* doesn't WANT you to own the box.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

Don't you also need to buy a Tivo subscription for full functionality? Either monthly or lifetime? I don't know for sure but if so that needs to be factored into price as it probably helps to subsidize the hardware costs as well.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

CCarncross said:


> Don't you also need to buy a Tivo subscription for full functionality? Either monthly or lifetime? I don't know for sure but if so that needs to be factored into price as it probably helps to subsidize the hardware costs as well.


The 'mirroring' fee is also a subsidy for DirecTV. Even if you do own your receiver you still have to pay monthly for each receiver.. Forever.... In my case, including the initial 'lease' fee, I have paid about $1200 for 3 HR24s. That will continue to increase each month that I continue to subscribe. If/when I cancel DirecTV will 'lease' those 3 HR24s to others and make even more money off of them...

The lease model that DirecTV uses is skewed in their favor and makes them more money than if people just flat out owned their receivers.


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## gio12 (Jul 31, 2006)

MysteryMan said:


> The craftsmanship of other countries isn't superior to American craftsmanship. Product quality is dictated by the manufacturer's design specifications. Where those products are built is dictated by labor costs. Example: I use Polk Audio speakers with my Home Theater systems. They are designed and engineered in the USA and assembled in China. The Japanese do the same. My Sony equipment is designed and engineered in Japan and assembled in Malaysia.


If you believe that, I have swamp land to sell you. Large scale American craftsmanship is down the drain because of the of several reasons. 
#1 Americans don't give a CRAP anymore
#2 Americans want higher wages and companies wont pay it because the consumer won't.

I will give you an example of a business I have been in for 15 years.
The Bike industry. To keep it simple. best bikes craft wise and engineering came for the US. To save labor, US companies move to Taiwan to save money. They then became BETTER than the US is welding and in Carbon Fiber production, besides Africa, yes, Africa via France.

Now Taiwan wants higher wages and stuff moved to China. They are now producing frames at Taiwanese and US quality. Composites are getting VERY close as well as their engineering.

Can the US produce better quality stuff than Asia, at similar cost to consumers in the future? We will see when Apple starts building Macs here!


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

Mike Greer said:


> [...]
> The lease model that DirecTV uses is skewed in their favor and makes them more money than if people just flat out owned their receivers.


Of course it's skewed in DIRECTV's favor, they are a for profit business. If the model was to break even or lose money everyday they would be gone.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Mike Greer said:


> The lease model that DirecTV uses is skewed in their favor and makes them more money than if people just flat out owned their receivers.


True, but at the same time is less for the new customer.
I'm still burning from the POS Sony HD receiver I bought for $800 to come to DirecTV. 2-3 years later it was useless with the move to MPEG-4.
I'm not a fan of the up front lease fee, or for that matter the mirroring fees. It doesn't cost DirecTV "anything" for me to have more than one working receiver.

I do need to point out that the returned receivers don't go straight back to another customer though.
They all go through a refurbishing process, which does cost DirecTV, so it isn't exactly "rinse and repeat" over and over.

Any company that isn't "skewing in their favor", either isn't going to be in business long, or has to be making it up somewhere else.

I've never had a TiVo, but the old HR10-250 was expensive and TiVo had their nice monthly revenue feed, which seems to be how everyone is moving to. No longer is it enough to sell a product/device, but it has to come with the recurring revenue feed.

You may be old enough to remember the phone company wanting to charge $0.50/month to "protect/service" the wiring in your home.
As long as I can remember, it never was a problem, but imagine the returns on that $0.50/customer.
DirecTV did and charged us $3/month for MRV.
"Millions per month" to the bottom line, is just too hard to pass up.


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## veryoldschool (Dec 10, 2006)

Scott Kocourek said:


> Of course it's skewed in DIRECTV's favor, they are a for profit business. If the model was to break even or lose money everyday they would be gone.


Please stop trying to bring reality into this rant. !rolling


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## Scott Kocourek (Jun 13, 2009)

veryoldschool said:


> Please stop trying to bring reality into this rant. !rolling


 Sometimes I get the feeling that people want business to run like government....

Of course I'll give myself the big :backtotop knowing full well that politics is against the forum rules.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Scott Kocourek said:


> Of course it's skewed in DIRECTV's favor, they are a for profit business. If the model was to break even or lose money everyday they would be gone.


Um, yes.... As I have stated many times DirecTV is in business to make money and they do make money. I only used the word 'skewed' because there are many people here that seem to think DirecTV is doing us a favor with their 'lease' program.

DirecTV doesn't need to be defended in everything they do. We don't need to 'pretend' they are taking a loss on their over-priced under-powered receivers. DirecTV makes money every month on nearly every receiver they 'lease' and that is as it should be... Doesn't change the fact that they should make it an option for those of us who wish to 'buy' the receiver we want and not have to play games to do it.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

veryoldschool said:


> True, but at the same time is less for the new customer.
> I'm still burning from the POS Sony HD receiver I bought for $800 to come to DirecTV. 2-3 years later it was useless with the move to MPEG-4.
> I'm not a fan of the up front lease fee, or for that matter the mirroring fees. It doesn't cost DirecTV "anything" for me to have more than one working receiver.
> 
> ...


I've also been on both sides. I paid $2000 for HR10-250s that didn't even last 3 years...

As for their 'refurb' process goes - they must not pay much to have it done. I once received a beat up, scratched up, cigarette smoke smelling dented HR20 to replace a failed HR22. Looked like someone had used vice-grips to open it up as each screw in the back and circular scratches/dents around it from twisting the 'security' screws out. Lucky for me it was right as the DECA adapters where released and the support people couldn't figure out how to make it work on the HR20-100's. After I sent it back I found out about the 'splitter' fix to make the DECA adapter work...

Again - I'm not complaining about DirecTV making money. I guess I'm complaining about the people trying to convince us all that DirecTV is doing us a favor by not 'selling' us receivers.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

gio12 said:


> If you believe that, I have swamp land to sell you. Large scale American craftsmanship is down the drain because of the of several reasons.
> #1 Americans don't give a CRAP anymore
> #2 Americans want higher wages and companies wont pay it because the consumer won't.
> 
> ...


Right, you can buy a great american built bike from Rivendell etc, but how many groupsets are made in the US? You can't get away from it.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

will see when Apple starts building Macs here![/quote]

is coming....

Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk mobile app


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

gio12 said:


> Can the US produce better quality stuff than Asia, at similar cost to consumers in the future? We will see when Apple starts building Macs here!


It may not be a fair comparison, because Apple is most likely going to be using a highly automated factory for the US assembly of Macs. The quality of an automated factory should be pretty equal no matter where it is (modulo whatever human element of QC there is)

As for how it compares to the current Macs that are assembled in Ireland and China (probably other places too, don't know offhand) is another matter. Theoretically automation should improve the assembly, but its possible it may take a bit of time to get all the robots tuned just right!


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Mike Greer said:


> Um, yes.... As I have stated many times DirecTV is in business to make money and they do make money. I only used the word 'skewed' because there are many people here that seem to think DirecTV is doing us a favor with their 'lease' program.


Oh, right, Mike. Give us three names of those who've so indicated.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Laxguy said:


> Oh, right, Mike. Give us three names of those who've so indicated.


I get enough 'hate' mail... A search on 'leased' and 'owned' will give you plenty - not that it matters.

If I want to pay for an HR44 I don't see the problem... Why is it so difficult to allow me to pay DirecTV money? And why should I have to worry about getting my new SS HR44 replaced with an HR34 weeks after I buy (lease) it? This isn't rocket science and could be much easier.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

Mike Greer said:


> I get enough 'hate' mail... A search on 'leased' and 'owned' will give you plenty - not that it matters.
> 
> If I want to pay for an HR44 I don't see the problem... Why is it so difficult to allow me to pay DirecTV money? And why should I have to worry about getting my new SS HR44 replaced with an HR34 weeks after I buy (lease) it? This isn't rocket science and could be much easier.


I also see at least three people. If I name the names this thread will probably get closed. Also not so much that as "the lease is a deal, that box costs a lot of money." I used to manufacture cell phones and other customer electronics, and I can tell you the lease is a huge cash cow for D*. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

You've hit upon a key psychological component of this thread. The "buy (lease)" slip. If people pay ANY money UP FRONT, they assume they're buying it. They have to constantly remind themselves that they're NOT buying it. But even then in the back of their mind they always FEEL like they're buying it. And when people buy things, they are usually brand new. Especially if they're paying $200-$300 for it.

And when a slow, six-year old, low capacity, banged up DVR shows up instead, they will feel disappointed and ripped off. Some people know this about themselves, which is why they will pay extra money to get (buy or lease) the latest box. But when the price for a new box and an old box are identical, and they receive the OLD box, and there's no guaranteed way to get a new box, that's yet another way people will feel ripped off.

Many cable companies do not have an upfront lease fee, but simply increase the monthly rate and charge $20/month per DVR or $10 per box. This method could cost customers MORE in the long run, but they don't FEEL like they're being ripped off because they know they're leasing it.

I've crunched the numbers, and from a monetary point of view the D* model costs less for the customer in the long run. But people aren't always logical, especially when it comes to money.


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## wingrider01 (Sep 9, 2005)

Mike Bertelson said:


> You're correct. It's not the same. If your HR2x dies DIRECTV will replace it for, usually for no more than shipping.
> 
> If your cell phone dies and you're not eligible for an upgrade it'll cost you hundreds to replace it.
> 
> ...


And even if you have the monthly insurance on the cell phone it will still cost you 199.00 to replace a broken phone and that one will be a refurb


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Three people? That is not 'many' in the context of this thread.


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## Mike Greer (Jan 20, 2004)

Laxguy said:


> Three people? That is not 'many' in the context of this thread.


Oh brother...


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

Amazon has the HR 44 for $199.00 through My Directv Store. Does anyone have any experience with this company or any thoughts on this potential purchase?


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

I'd avoid it. I have no experience with them, but I personally see several red flags.

1. Only 27 reviews, nothing before late April.
2. HR44 is too cheap
3. They don't sell other major items, like HR24s
4. One review claimed he got a box 35% cheaper than from DirecTV and didn't extend the contract. Unless they bought an AM21 or other non-leased equipment, I'm dubious about this review.


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## tonyd79 (Jul 24, 2006)

bobcamp1 said:


> Many cable companies do not have an upfront lease fee, but simply increase the monthly rate and charge $20/month per DVR or $10 per box. This method could cost customers MORE in the long run, but they don't FEEL like they're being ripped off because they know they're leasing it.


So, you would be happier with DirecTV actually ripping you off with higher fees just so you don't feel ripped off.

LOL. You just defended the DirecTV method in a post where you decried people defending it?


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

dpeters11 said:


> I'd avoid it. I have no experience with them, but I personally see several red flags.
> 
> 1. Only 27 reviews, nothing before late April.
> 2. HR44 is too cheap
> ...


Well, I took the chance and ordered it. Brand new HR44-500 arrived. Activated and up and running.


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## whorne (Dec 3, 2011)

That is good news! Thanks for letting us know.


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## joshjr (Aug 2, 2008)

MysteryMan said:


> Let's see. Your bedroom DVR failed in January. Had you contacted DirecTV then they would have replaced it for you. Instead, "you" chose to wait all this time for the HR44's release. On top of that you're complaining you now have to decide whether to purchase a HR44 from Solid Signal or gamble on getting one from DirecTV. I fail to see how you are the injured party.


Not to mention that both would be a lease so why wait? Guess he wants it for free. If he wanted the HR44 that bad he would of just sucked it up and went with Solid Signal. Since he didnt do that, I dont think he wanted it as bad as he wanted to complain about it.


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## bobcamp1 (Nov 8, 2007)

tonyd79 said:


> So, you would be happier with DirecTV actually ripping you off with higher fees just so you don't feel ripped off.
> 
> LOL. You just defended the DirecTV method in a post where you decried people defending it?


No, I just defended PART of it. The rental scheme of paying a chunk of money up front for a lower monthly rental fee saves money in the long term, with the amounts they're currently charging.

However, the fact they charge the same exact amount (both up front and monthly) for a brand new DVR vs. a six-year old DVR, combined with the fact there is no way to request a specific DVR, is what I have an issue with. The up front fee simply draws more attention to how unfair that is.

I also have an issue with D* replacing a broken DVR with an *earlier* model when others are getting it replaced with a *later* model.


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## oldsalem (Feb 17, 2011)

If I buy a DirecTV receiver for Solid or Weaknees, do I still pay Directv for monthly rental of HD and DVR service fees of $10 each?


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## I WANT MORE (Oct 3, 2006)

oldsalem said:


> If I buy a DirecTV receiver for Solid or Weaknees, do I still pay Directv for monthly rental of HD and DVR service fees of $10 each?


Yes.


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## Mike Bertelson (Jan 24, 2007)

oldsalem said:


> If I buy a DirecTV receiver for Solid or Weaknees, do I still pay Directv for monthly rental of HD and DVR service fees of $10 each?


You would pay those fees even if you owned the receiver. The lease fee will be labeled as an "additional receiver" and the DVR is required for DVRs. However, there is only one DVR fee per account so if you already have a DVR you'll only have the additional receiver fee. So yes, it will be a leased receiver and you will pay the fees.

Mike


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

oldsalem said:


> If I buy a DirecTV receiver for Solid or Weaknees, do I still pay Directv for monthly rental of HD and DVR service fees of $10 each?


Not only "Yes", but you won't own it.... You'd be paying an upfront partial lease cost, or something like that.


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## CCarncross (Jul 19, 2005)

oldsalem said:


> If I buy _*lease*_ a DirecTV receiver for Solid or Weaknees, do I still pay Directv for monthly rental of HD and DVR service fees of $10 each?


Fixed it for you...you dont own the receivers you get from Solid Signal or weaknees, they are leased.


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## bryanb963 (Jul 18, 2014)

If you sign up for new service and the installer arrives with older hardware, can't you just cancell the install on the spot?


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## ladannen (Oct 27, 2007)

bryanb963 said:


> If you sign up for new service and the installer arrives with older hardware, can't you just cancell the install on the spot?


Yes, although in most cases the installer will call you before they show up. Ask if the hardware you want will be included in the install. If the answer is no, cancel the install over the phone.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

It's pretty hypocritical of DirecTV to advertise that cable companies install refurbished equipment, in one of those "real people complaint" commercials when DirecTV does the exact same thing.


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## mklausing (Sep 1, 2006)

Okay folks, here is a simple question that I cannot seem to get an answer to. If I buy the new DTV H44 unit, will Directv still bill me $25 monthly receiver rental fee? I know that I will pay a monthly DVR fee of $10.00 no matter what receiver unit I have. Thanks in advance.


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

mklausing said:


> Okay folks, here is a simple question that I cannot seem to get an answer to. If I buy the new DTV H44 unit, will Directv still bill me $25 monthly receiver rental fee? I know that I will pay a monthly DVR fee of $10.00 no matter what receiver unit I have. Thanks in advance.


You will pay:
1. Basic fee for whatever programming package you have.
2. Advanced receiver fee, which includes HD, DVR and Whole-Home. That's the $25 fee. It applies once per account (not per DVR or receiver).
3. $6 per month for the second and subsequent receivers/DVRs/clients you have.


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

mklausing said:


> Okay folks, here is a simple question that I cannot seem to get an answer to. If I buy the new DTV H44 unit, will Directv still bill me $25 monthly receiver rental fee? I know that I will pay a monthly DVR fee of $10.00 no matter what receiver unit I have. Thanks in advance.


There is no such thing as a $25 monthly receiver rental fee. Receivers cost $6 per month, regardless of what receiver you have. The $6 for the first receiver on your account is credited back on your bill. For existing customers there are fees for HD, DVR Service and Whole Home DVR service ($10, $10 and $3 respectively). For new customers, there is a $25 Advanced Receiver fee, which includes HD, DVR and Whole Home.

Aside from all of that, when you acquire a new HR44 from a dealer, you are not purchasing it. You do not own it. You are paying the up-front acquisition fee. This is the same fee that DirecTV charges. However, DirecTV may charge more or less than a retailer does. DirecTV may even waive that fee entirely. The only thing that you are "buying" when you acquire an HR44 from a dealer is the guarantee that you will receive an HR44. When you get a Genie from DirecTV, you are taking the chance that you will be given an HR34 and may have to delay installations until a tech shows up with an HR44.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

Bill Broderick said:


> It's pretty hypocritical of DirecTV to advertise that cable companies install refurbished equipment, in one of those "real people complaint" commercials when DirecTV does the exact same thing.


I agree, although I don't see that often, and when I did see that kind of ad, their point was the age of the hardware, and they are right. Most the cable companies hardware is 3 times older than an HR20 im my neighborhood. its really patheitc


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

inkahauts said:


> I agree, although I don't see that often, and when I did see that kind of ad, their point was the age of the hardware, and they are right. Most the cable companies hardware is 3 times older than an HR20 im my neighborhood. its really patheitc


I think here a TWC customer might still get an 8300HD, which is what I had when I moved to DirecTV over 7 years ago.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

OK, keeping it simple, isn't the reason DirecTV keeps installing HR-34s and not allowing you to specify as simple as they still have a ton of HR-34s in inventory and have to do something with them? And I assume that a LOT of people, the ones who aren't so obsessive about their TV that they spend time reading forums about it (LOL!) the ones who just call the number they see on TV or get in the mail, would have no earthly idea whether they were getting a 34 or a 44 or anything else. They want a Genie cause it looked cool in the ad on TV. 

Now you could also make an argument that, if that's true, there are enough people out there who would never ask for a specific model that they could accommodate the ones who do and still be able to unload 34s on the ones who don't.

I will be moving from DIsh to DTV as soon as we finish a couple more things in the den we're remodeling (waiting so the install will put one of the 3 receivers in there) - I had to choose between upgrading to a couple of Hoppers and a Joey and a Genie and two mini setups. If I am moving from Dish to DirecTV, from a Hopper opportunity to a Genie, I certainly don't want the slower Genie (the 34.) So I am looking for every angle to ensure a 44. Short of buying one.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

The speeds for most operations are almost identical. If you channel surf, you'll notice. Boot up time is way longer for the '34, but really, how many times does one reboot?


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

fudpucker said:


> Now you could also make an argument that, if that's true, there are enough people out there who would never ask for a specific model that they could accommodate the ones who do and still be able to unload 34s on the ones who don't.


I would say the ratio is 500 (or more) to 1. Out of of the installs and upgrades I have done so far this year, I've had only ONE customer (you know who you are) requesting an HR44, everybody else takes what ever I bring. I have a few times, had to replace 44 with 34, customers ask why the size different and I just tell them that is the new model,....


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## Bill Broderick (Aug 25, 2006)

peds48 said:


> Out of of the installs and upgrades I have done so far this year, I've had only ONE customer (you know who you are) requesting an HR44, everybody else takes what ever I bring.


 !rolling


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## carl6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Laxguy said:


> The speeds for most operations are almost identical. If you channel surf, you'll notice. Boot up time is way longer for the '34, but really, how many times does one reboot?


If you are comparing the speed between a 34 and a 44, I would disagree. The 44 is noticeably faster for most actions. I've got both and can certainly tell the difference. Channel surfing aside, I don't do that, I use the guide.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

carl6 said:


> If you are comparing the speed between a 34 and a 44, I would disagree. The 44 is noticeably faster for most actions. I've got both and can certainly tell the difference. Channel surfing aside, I don't do that, I use the guide.


It's not fast enough over the HR34 to make me pay $199 or sign a 24 month commitment. 
That I can say for sure.

The Hr44 is nice and compact, but still gets plagued with directv software issues.
And holding the button down to scroll through the guide, is not a real speed test.

Speed is determined by me when I choose a channel and press enter it should come up in 1-2 seconds.
When I'm pressing menu selections it shouldn't stumble at a command.
I could easily get my sisters HR 44 to stumble . 
It's better I'll give you that carl, but its not that much better.

When you set the standard that directv does, it's not hard to make something seem fast when every receiver from 2005-2013 is slow.

Use a Roamio, or X1 then tell me how fast the HR44 is.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

carl6 said:


> If you are comparing the speed between a 34 and a 44, I would disagree. The 44 is noticeably faster for most actions. I've got both and can certainly tell the difference. Channel surfing aside, I don't do that, I use the guide.


OK, won't argue that. I have both, but use the 34 for recording only for the last year. Memory often doesn't make for good comparisons.....


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

damondlt said:


> It's not fast enough over the HR34 to make me pay $199 or sign a 24 month commitment.
> That I can say for sure.
> 
> The Hr44 is nice and compact, but still gets plagued with directv software issues.
> ...


Its not plagued by issues.

and what remote in what mode did you use? My hr44, the biggest thing i love about it is it always reacts to every command all the time and quickly. It doesn't have issues with remote speed like the old rc6x whatever remotes had issues with. The rc71 in rf is awesome.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Its not plagued by issues.
> 
> and what remote in what mode did you use? My hr44, the biggest thing i love about it is it always reacts to every command all the time and quickly. It doesn't have issues with remote speed like the old rc6x whatever remotes had issues with. The rc71 in rf is awesome.


You ever read the forums? 
There are lots of HR44 software issues threads.

It's not just HR34s in them threads.
Also don't take my post out of context, because I didn't say it was plagued by issues.

I said it "Still gets plagued by directv software issues".

If your going to debate me on it at least quote me on what was really stated instead of posting it in a way that would make it look like I'm saying the HR44 is has nothing but problems.
That's not what I said.
But the receiver is Far from flawless.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

damondlt said:


> ....Also don't take my post out of context, because I didn't say it was plagued by issues.
> 
> I said it "Still gets plagued by directv software issues".
> 
> ...


You did say it was plagued by issues. Then, when you added the word "software" you merely specified a type of plague.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

damondlt said:


> The Hr44 is nice and compact, but still gets plagued with directv software issues.
> .


Here is my post in case you guys couldn't find it.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

Laxguy said:


> The speeds for most operations are almost identical. If you channel surf, you'll notice. Boot up time is way longer for the '34, but really, how many times does one reboot?


Once a week.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Once a week.


LOL!


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

Heh, right on about that. But for most on that weekly cycle, it's irrelevant as it's Bedtime for Bonzo following the reboot....


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

damondlt said:


> You ever read the forums?
> There are lots of HR44 software issues threads.
> 
> It's not just HR34s in them threads.
> ...


What receiver is?


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

RAD said:


> What receiver is?


I'm not going to answer that, because , you can just look around here RAD and see the Multiple failing Hardrives on the HR44s.
The Multiple HR44's in the software threads with issues.

THEY ARE NOT FLAWLESS.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

damondlt said:


> I'm not going to answer that, because , you can just look around here RAD and see the Multiple failing Hardrives on the HR44s.
> The Multiple HR44's in the software threads with issues.
> THEY ARE NOT FLAWLESS.


Never said they were. Guess I'd ask which is better. You can look in Dish forums here and at other sites and see folks reporting multiple issues with their boxes. You can look at Tivocommunity and see folks reporting problems there. Nobody is flawless..


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

Your right , but back to the same point, The HR44 isn't that much better than the HR34. 
I've not seen the amount of hard drive failures in the first year as being reported with the HR44s.

So, aside from a slight improvement in speed and size, I see no real reason to waste $200 on a lease upgrade over someone's current HR34s, and sign a 24 month commitment on top of that. Yeah no thanks.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

I know lots of people with old TiVos that are still alive and kicking.
Dish, I've never gotten more than 3 years out of a VIP. 
Hopper ? Who knows?
Directv HRs most time last a long time, they may not function with the speed and smoothness as many others, but they normally do last a long time.
So that makes me wonder what's making these HR44 drop Hardrives in a years time?
Shotty workmanship?
Cheap Hardrives?


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## hasan (Sep 22, 2006)

The HR44 may not be flawless, but mine, at least (-700) has been very, very good. Having used many HR models starting at the HR20-700 (an amazing DVR after a few software releases until even it became too processor/memory starved to keep up with all the latest bells and whistles), the 44 is not just better than all of them in terms of speed, reliability and annoying bugs, it is dramatically so!

I had a hard drive start to go bad on my HR20-700 after 5 years...does that make it "plagued", or does it deserve a gold star for 5 years of 24x7 operationi? Starting in 2007, I've had HR20-700, HR20-100, HR21-200, H21-200 and now the HR24-200 and HR44-700. In all these years, I've had exactly one hard drive go south. (and it didn't outright die, just started to show issues, I cloned it to a new drive and away we went ...it was external, btw).

I'll agree that the older HR2x series DVRs got to be really problematic in and of themselves as time wore on, but not specifically the hard drives. They became horridly slow, very inconsistent in their performance and utterly incapable of properly running cjrrent versions of the software well. They were getting bad enough that I was considering moving to a different provider. Much of the frustration with this equipmente was a result of very sporadic performance and near constant rationalization and outright denial from the user community. One couldn't get help because nothing would really help. It still amazes me that well established problems could so easily be swept under the rug with a "What! Me worry", Alfred E. Newman mentality. I know that has rubbed a lot of people the wrong way....and it should have.

Now that the 24 and 44 are well established, all I can say is that the 44 is really, really quick and has been, to this point quite reliable and consistent in its performance. The 24 isn't as fast, but still runs circles around the 3 DVR models that I replaced. (20-700, 20-100, 21-200). 

The 44 isn't perfect, but it is so good that most typical users are unlikely to notice anything out of order. I can note a few things in the firmware that aren't right, but they don't ruin the user experience. 

I don't see any reason the few remaining minor issues (compared to the overall performance of the box) won't get fixed in the long run. That was not the case with the HR20/21 series. There were major issues, they were legendary among those experiencing them and they never got fixed. They were both annoying and frustrating and ruined the user experience for me. 

So, while there are plenty of things to complain about, the 44 doesn't strike me as one of them, and my 24s don't seem to be an issue either, just not as fast as the 44.


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

damondlt said:


> I know lots of people with old TiVos that are still alive and kicking.Dish, I've never gotten more than 3 years out of a VIP. Hopper ? Who knows?Directv HRs most time last a long time, they may not function with the speed and smoothness as many others, but they normally do last a long time.So that makes me wonder what's making these HR44 drop Hardrives in a years time?Shotty workmanship?Cheap Hardrives?


Since I've had a HR44 since back during the early customer testing I've not had any hard drive problems with it. Can't say the same about HR34's, had three replaced due to hard drive failures. Since DIRECTV doesn't make hard drives maybe they just were unlucky and got a bad batch from the source. I also got a HR21 for early testing, I ended up giving it to my son and it's still going strong.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

RAD said:


> I also got a HR21 for early testing,* I ended up giving it to my son* and it's still going strong.


Wow, how can you do that to him... :rotfl:


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

peds48 said:


> Wow, how can you do that to him... :rotfl:


Hey, it was free, except for the cost of an access card.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I've not seen the amount of hard drive failures in the first year as being reported with the HR44s.


I'm not sure how you point a hard drive failure deciding if a unit is "flawless" or not. DirecTV has nothing to do with the manufacture of hard drives and, as it has been pointed out many times in this thread, they aren't all perfect. Drives can be bought "new" from the store that are already DOA, they can die in a week, in a month, in a year, in 5 years, etc. DirecTV has no control over when a drive may die. Hard drive life span should have nothing to do with rating how close to flawless a unit is, none of them are flawless, unless the drive and unit are made by the same people. In this case they aren't.

Blaming DirecTV for a bad drive in a unit would be like blaming Chrylser for a tire blowing out on your Challenger.


----------



## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> So that makes me wonder what's making these HR44 drop Hardrives in a years time?
> Shotty workmanship?
> Cheap Hardrives?


Again, DirecTV has nothing to do with the workmanship of the drives. They also have no control over the price of the parts that go into the drives. They aren't using noname drives, they use Western Digital and Seagate and not the bottom line of either of those brands.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> Blaming DirecTV for a bad drive in a unit would be like blaming Chrylser for a tire blowing out on your Challenger.


Are you joking?

The hard drive is the Heart of a receiver.
That would be like an Engine going , not a Tire.
And yes I would blame Chrysler if my engine went out.

If they choose to outsource and put these hardrives in their receivers then they are fully responsible.
If they haven't changed Hardrives , then the design is at fault for the malfunctioning equipment.
Either way its 100% directvs responsibility .


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

damondlt said:


> You ever read the forums?
> There are lots of HR44 software issues threads.
> 
> It's not just HR34s in them threads.
> ...


I took it as plagued by issues because of the way you worded it, if that's not what you meant, then ok...

But still the hr44 is an excellent machine. Mine has been as steady as my replaytv and my ultimate TV was, and those two DVRs where the best I ever had, by far. They where just rock solid always. I still wish directv would go to replaytvs design philioshipes, they where just so much better, but that doesn't mean that the hr44 is bad at all, no one is getting DVRs truly right as far as I am concerned.

And again, I don't see a plague of software issues from DIRECTV on the hr44 either. Yeah the start over was an issue the day it launched, but that was a system issue with all DVRs on all those particular channels.

I think I have seen less overall issues specific to hr44 than any other DVR directv has released , or at least it seems that way based on the boards issues being posted. Are there issues, sure, but its no worse than any other DVR out there that I have seen from the threads.

The issue IMHO is that it seems like you are implying they are more flawed than most, by really working to say they are not flawless due to directv software. I think that's where the communication and difference in opinions from what you say start with most people on this particular subject in this thread.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> I took it as plagued by issues because of the way you worded it, if that's not what you meant, then ok...
> 
> But still the hr44 is an excellent machine. Mine has been as steady as my replaytv and my ultimate TV was, and those two DVRs where the best I ever had, by far. They where just rock solid always. I still wish directv would go to replaytvs design philioshipes, they where just so much better, but that doesn't mean that the hr44 is bad at all, no one is getting DVRs truly right as far as I am concerned.
> 
> ...


I'm concerned about the multiple complaints Hard drive failures I see at the 1 year mark.
And I don't over hype equipment, when its really not worth the Hype some put into it.
That sends a poor message into sending customers to lie ,pay, and sign premature commitments, in hopes they have this Bug less free Machine. When its NOT!
Is the Hr44 good, Yep

Is it Better than the 34, sure
Is it worth spending $200 upgrading from a 34 - 44, NO !
Most normal Directv customers don't care about the Hype or differences between the 2

Directv should stop putting out multiple premature versions of receivers, and Stick with one.
5 different versions of the 2 tuner HR'???? Com on now.

Even dish isn't that nuts


----------



## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

hasan said:


> The HR44 may not be flawless, but mine, at least (-700) has been very, very good. Having used many HR models starting at the HR20-700 (an amazing DVR after a few software releases until even it became too processor/memory starved to keep up with all the latest bells and whistles), the 44 is not just better than all of them in terms of speed, reliability and annoying bugs, it is dramatically so!
> 
> I had a hard drive start to go bad on my HR20-700 after 5 years...does that make it "plagued", or does it deserve a gold star for 5 years of 24x7 operationi? Starting in 2007, I've had HR20-700, HR20-100, HR21-200, H21-200 and now the HR24-200 and HR44-700. In all these years, I've had exactly one hard drive go south. (and it didn't outright die, just started to show issues, I cloned it to a new drive and away we went ...it was external, btw).
> 
> ...


I like your Honest post.
But your signature states you are using an external Hard drive.
That can change the game.

And no one is complaining .

I'm just not giving in to the Over Hype its do or Die without the HR44.

My brother owns a communications company that installs Directv.
They had 7 Failed HR 44's in the month of June alone
5 Hard drive Failure, 2 Lightning
HR34 2 since January
They only installed 20 Genies since January.


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> Are you joking?
> 
> The hard drive is the Heart of a receiver.
> That would be like an Engine going , not a Tire.
> ...


No, I'm not joking and no it wouldn't be like the engine. The engine would be the motherboard....

They don't outsource anything, they buy the finished product from them. When you buy a drive from Western Digital and it dies "before its time" is it your fault? NO! Then why would it be DirecTV's fault??


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I like your Honest post.
> But your signature states you are using an external Hard drive.
> That can change the game.
> 
> ...


...and I bet you're thinking the lightning is DirecTV's fault too.


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

damondlt said:


> My brother owns a communications company that installs Directv.
> They had 7 Failed HR 44's in the month of June alone
> 5 Hard drive Failure, 2 Lightning
> HR34 2 since January
> They only installed 20 Genies since January.


That's a terrible failure rate for anything, but it's also statistically insignificant in the big picture.

Moreover, aside from lightening strikes -Yikes!- we don't know if user abuse was a factor, or anything else about the matter.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I like your Honest post.
> But your signature states you are using an external Hard drive.
> That can change the game.
> 
> ...


That is odd, as I know of a lot more than 7 people with Genies that have had zero issues with hr44's and a fair amount of issues with hr34's.... And the fact they have installed so few doesn't make them a good sample size at all IMHO for what is happening on a mass scale.


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

damondlt said:


> I'm concerned about the multiple complaints Hard drive failures I see at the 1 year mark.
> And I don't over hype equipment, when its really not worth the Hype some put into it.
> That sends a poor message into sending customers to lie ,pay, and sign premature commitments, in hopes they have this Bug less free Machine. When its NOT!
> Is the Hr44 good, Yep
> ...


Id say for a reup of commitment, and free upfront costs, the hr44 is absolutely worth it in an instant. No hesitation to do that. And if you are having issues with an hr34, its a big worth it no matter what, but then if you are having issues you should be getting it fixed and will more often than not end up with a hr44 anyway.

For the full price, not sure I can say its worth it either, depends on the person and their specific hr34 and if they are happy with it. If they aren't having issues, I'd not switch either I don't think.

And theres no doubt either is better than a hr2x or any kind imho.

As for different iterations well, there was really two genies, a first one as a test case and proof of concept, and then there's the hr44. Personally i wouldn't send the hr34s back out, but their accounting department will make them.

As for the hr2xs, really there was only two real different models, the hr24s and the rest. They where not significantly different in much of any way to the customer standpoint, just a slightly newer version of the last. Heck, most electronics companies release new tvs every year and the differences between one year and the next is close to nill most the time. This was no different. They didn't redesign them from the ground up for each hr20 to hr21 etc. just small tweaks for a variety of reasons.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

HR34= Rushed out the door too fast with limited testing, Freeze up issues, although not on all of them
HR44= Learned from their previous mistakes and did full testing

And that's why they're starting to phase out HR34's because of issues, although some markets still carry them for replacements and upgrades (more like downgrades IMO)


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## inkahauts (Nov 13, 2006)

um yeah that's not quite right. 

And the hr34 was never produced like the hr44 was. 44 has multiple manufacturers. 34 was only one and a short run. 44 is a much much larger run. They've pretty well exhausted their new 34 and are just down to refurbs based on all the report's here and elsewhere. They won't phase them out till about five years from now as I believe all boxes should have a life span of about five years for refurbishment based on accounting practices. But not positive on the timeline.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

Either way I rather not have that behemoth of a box in a space reduced area, compared to the HR44, Or at least that's how they make it out to be, I'm not sure I never had the HR34.


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## acostapimps (Nov 6, 2011)

As technology and software in the future changes, If the HR44 becomes slow (hope not knock on wood)
We'll be crying for the HR54.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

RunnerFL said:


> No, I'm not joking and no it wouldn't be like the engine. The engine would be the motherboard....
> 
> They don't outsource anything, they buy the finished product from them. When you buy a drive from Western Digital and it dies "before its time" is it your fault? NO! Then why would it be DirecTV's fault??


Classic it's not Directv's Fault.

Never is .
It's 100% Directv's Fault if the equipment your leasing from them fails.

You think your response would fly with 20 million customers?.

Just you and Laxguy.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

inkahauts said:


> Id say for a reup of commitment, and free upfront costs, the hr44 is absolutely worth it in an instant. No hesitation to do that. And if you are having issues with an hr34, its a big worth it no matter what, but then if you are having issues you should be getting it fixed and will more often than not end up with a hr44 anyway.
> 
> For the full price, not sure I can say its worth it either, depends on the person and their specific hr34 and if they are happy with it. If they aren't having issues, I'd not switch either I don't think.
> 
> ...


Most tvs get improved year by year, not get worse. 
HR20 is better than any 21,22,23, and even some 24s.
But I know it's not Directv fault.


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

You guys realize this thread is going out of control, because some of you couldn't handle the fact that I said the HR44 is not worth it IMO to pay $200 and sign a 24 month commitment to upgrade over the HR34.
Most normal people would never do this.

What are you really gaining?
It's not that much better!

Some of you guys did the same crap over the HR24, and guess what it's barely any better than the last 4 models of HRs.

Get over it!


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## RAD (Aug 5, 2002)

acostapimps said:


> HR34= Rushed out the door too fast with limited testing, Freeze up issues, although not on all of them


I can promise, as an early tester of the HR34, which started as the HMC30, it was not rushed, it was the longest early customer test program that I've ever have participated in.

Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


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## RunnerFL (Jan 5, 2006)

damondlt said:


> Classic it's not Directv's Fault.
> 
> Never is .
> It's 100% Directv's Fault if the equipment your leasing from them fails.
> ...


It's their fault if it fails because of software issues, absolutely, but it is NOT their fault if a component they didn't build (a hard drive) fails. Again, if your WD drive fails is it your fault??


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## fudpucker (Jul 23, 2007)

Well, as someone who will be a new DirecTV customer (actually, returning - I had DTV from 1995 until 2009, when I switched to Dish when we moved and DTV did not carry the local networks in HD and Dish did) - and someone who is pretty analytical (my wife would say leave off the "ytical" and just call me anal! LOL!) about my electronics, and as someone turning down an offer of an upgrade of Hopper/w Sling + Hopper + Joey from Dish to move to Directv, I do NOT want an older generation product for the core of our whole house system. I.e. I don't want to give up Dish (which I have been very happy with, overall, I just need ST to watch my out of market team and can't get it this year for the first time in the last 3 years without DTV) and be given a first gen receiver, especially as it is the core of my whole house system (3 TVs) when a second gen is better and out there.

So for me, the 34 is not a viable option - so I'm looking for strategies, short of paying $300 for the privilege of becoming a new DTV customer when they are bombarding me with calls and mail to "Come back to Directv!" to get a 44.


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## sigma1914 (Sep 5, 2006)

fudpucker said:


> Well, as someone who will be a new DirecTV customer (actually, returning - I had DTV from 1995 until 2009, when I switched to Dish when we moved and DTV did not carry the local networks in HD and Dish did) - and someone who is pretty analytical (my wife would say leave off the "ytical" and just call me anal! LOL!) about my electronics, and as someone turning down an offer of an upgrade of Hopper/w Sling + Hopper + Joey from Dish to move to Directv, I do NOT want an older generation product for the core of our whole house system. I.e. I don't want to give up Dish (which I have been very happy with, overall, I just need ST to watch my out of market team and can't get it this year for the first time in the last 3 years without DTV) and be given a first gen receiver, especially as it is the core of my whole house system (3 TVs) when a second gen is better and out there.
> 
> So for me, the 34 is not a viable option - so I'm looking for strategies, short of paying $300 for the privilege of becoming a new DTV customer when they are bombarding me with calls and mail to "Come back to Directv!" to get a 44.


Just deny installation if it's not what you want. However, don't be upset if you keep denying and they eventually tell you forget it and quit rescheduling. You've read and posted enough about this... I'm seeing that your wife is right. !rolling


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

RAD said:


> I can promise, as an early tester of the HR34, which started as the HMC30, it was not rushed, it was the longest early customer test program that I've ever have participated in.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk


Well in one way maybe. It was originally released with the old UI. I thought it should have started with the HD UI that the other boxes had by that point.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

damondlt said:


> You guys realize this thread is going out of control, because some of you couldn't handle the fact that I said the HR44 is not worth it IMO to pay $200 and sign a 24 month commitment to upgrade over the HR34.
> !


funny, back on another thread I felt the same way!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Laxguy (Dec 2, 2010)

damondlt said:


> You guys realize this thread is going out of control, because some of you couldn't handle the fact that I said the HR44 is not worth it IMO
> 
> << Snipped bits out >>
> 
> Get over it!


Out of control? Perhaps, but the thread's incessant arguing is due mostly to one person. Ironically, it's he who says "Get over it!"


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## slice1900 (Feb 14, 2013)

damondlt said:


> My brother owns a communications company that installs Directv.
> They had 7 Failed HR 44's in the month of June alone
> 5 Hard drive Failure, 2 Lightning
> HR34 2 since January
> They only installed 20 Genies since January.


You don't think that some of those "5 hard drive failures" may have also been due to lightning? I don't suppose your brother tracked when those failed and if it was after a storm had recently passed through the area?

As others said, you can't blame Directv if the hard drive fails because they don't make the hard drive, and there are only a handful of choices in the world where to buy your hard drives from. It is no more their fault if a drive fails than it is Dell or Apple's fault if a hard drive in a computer you buy from them fails.

Directv replaces it for free, so what's to complain about?


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## rmmccann (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm joining this conversation way-late so I'll apologize if this has been covered already in one of the other pages.

I'm coming due for a contract renewal, and I plan on trying to renegotiate my equipment. I've been quite happy with my H25s - they are small and generally speedy. My HR34 has been OK, however the remote lag and the form factor leave much to be desired.

I was thinking about trying to swing an upgrade to the HR44. After reading through some of the pages, I realize "a genie is a genie" in DirecTV's eyes, so my question is this:
If I pay for the unit through Solid Signal or one of the other retailers (assuming I can get DirecTV to agree to cover it) and the unit dies within a couple months, am I going to get stuck with an HR34, or should I be able to expect an HR44 to replace the one that died? It was mentioned that the protection plan covers this sort of thing, but I'm not interested in adding another monthly charge for a trouble-free installation if it's not going to help "secure" certain equipment replacement policies.


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## joed32 (Jul 27, 2006)

rmmccann said:


> I'm joining this conversation way-late so I'll apologize if this has been covered already in one of the other pages.
> 
> I'm coming due for a contract renewal, and I plan on trying to renegotiate my equipment. I've been quite happy with my H25s - they are small and generally speedy. My HR34 has been OK, however the remote lag and the form factor leave much to be desired.
> 
> ...


You would be back in the same boat.


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

It's been stated that the policy on HR44, H25 is that like is replaced with like. Recently someone had an HR21 replaced, and either by policy or pure luck (or unluck) was shipped an HR21. However I have never seen anything official from DirecTV stating this.


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## samthegam (Dec 11, 2011)

dpeters11 said:


> It's been stated that the policy on HR44, H25 is that like is replaced with like. Recently someone had an HR21 replaced, and either by policy or pure luck (or unluck) was shipped an HR21. However I have never seen anything official from DirecTV stating this.


I had an HR44 replaced by an HR34. The tech that came out said all Genie's are the same. I couldn't take the slowness of the HR34 so I purchased an HR44-500 to replace the HR34. Good thing DirecTV gave me credit for it.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

fudpucker said:


> Well, as someone who will be a new DirecTV customer (actually, returning - I had DTV from 1995 until 2009, when I switched to Dish when we moved and DTV did not carry the local networks in HD and Dish did) - and someone who is pretty analytical (my wife would say leave off the "ytical" and just call me anal! LOL!) about my electronics, and as someone turning down an offer of an upgrade of Hopper/w Sling + Hopper + Joey from Dish to move to Directv, I do NOT want an older generation product for the core of our whole house system. I.e. I don't want to give up Dish (which I have been very happy with, overall, I just need ST to watch my out of market team and can't get it this year for the first time in the last 3 years without DTV) and be given a first gen receiver, especially as it is the core of my whole house system (3 TVs) when a second gen is better and out there.
> 
> So for me, the 34 is not a viable option - so I'm looking for strategies, short of paying $300 for the privilege of becoming a new DTV customer when they are bombarding me with calls and mail to "Come back to Directv!" to get a 44.


And what is going to happen when the "HR54" comes out? Dont know what is so special about the 44


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## dpeters11 (May 30, 2007)

samthegam said:


> I had an HR44 replaced by an HR34. The tech that came out said all Genie's are the same. I couldn't take the slowness of the HR34 so I purchased an HR44-500 to replace the HR34. Good thing DirecTV gave me credit for it.


I should have specified that the supposed policy is shipped receivers only, not when there's a truck roll

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## samthegam (Dec 11, 2011)

dpeters11 said:


> I should have specified that the supposed policy is shipped receivers only, not when there's a truck roll
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I am not sure if it is because I have the "Protection Plan" DirecTV always does a truck roll instead of shipping me receiver. I had an H25 replaced with another H25. The truck rolls are surprisingly fast - I can get appointments the following day. Since, I have H25-100, HR24-500, HR44-500 I would prefer they ship me receivers so I can get the same model. So far the only issues I had with HR34 & HR44 was hard drive failure!!!


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## rmmccann (Apr 16, 2012)

peds48 said:


> And what is going to happen when the "HR54" comes out? Dont know what is so special about the 44


For me it's not the "latest and greatest" but more so the smaller form factor. The HR34 is an absolute beast of a receiver and takes up a lot of room on my entertainment stand. I could clean things up a bit with a smaller receiver.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

rmmccann said:


> For me it's not the "latest and greatest" but more so the smaller form factor. The HR34 is an absolute beast of a receiver and takes up a lot of room on my entertainment stand. I could clean things up a bit with a smaller receiver.


so if the HR54 were to come out with say, 8 tuners and some other features perhaps snappier then the 44 but was the size of the 34, you would not get it even tho, let's assume you get it for free?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

peds48 said:


> so if the HR54 were to come out with say, 8 tuners and some other features perhaps snappier then the 44 but was the size of the 34, you would not get it even tho, let's assume you get it for free?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That would be worth an upgrade, over the HR34.


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## peds48 (Jan 11, 2008)

damondlt said:


> That would be worth an upgrade, over the HR34.


You cut the line too quickly....

Read my quoted post


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## damondlt (Feb 27, 2006)

I read your post just fine.
If Directv came out with an 8 tuner Genie, I would then upgrade my HR34 to it , I don't care if it's bigger.
That would be worth a Free or even $200 upgrade with a commitment. 

The HR44 is not worth that over a 34. 
Only the Die hard, can't be told anything directv fans think it's worth paying $200 and signing a 24 month addtional commitment on something that's only a little faster to respond, and is smaller.
Most people are not going to do an upgrade like that.
Myself included.
If you have to start paying addtional money for better equipment during your current contract , than that's a big minus for directv cost wise and operation wise as a company.
So figure that into your bottom line.

Right now, when my contact expires if Directv wants me to stay and sign again, then yes I will demand the HR44, and my HR23 upgraded to HR24.

But I'm not dropping a dime on it.


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## Stuart Sweet (Jun 19, 2006)

Folks, this thread seems to have served its purpose. If you'd like to start new threads discussing your particular situation, please feel free.


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